Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR STRYDOM: Then did this group left the Boipatong township at the same place where you had originally entered the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that.

MR STRYDOM: You have indicated earlier in your evidence the place where you entered with the casspir, now all I want to know, did you exit the township also at that place?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, we changed direction.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know which route did you follow to get to the tar road where you said you were walking when you went back to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I remember correctly, we took the main taxi route which joined the road to kwaMadala hostel and the factories nearby, we did not take the road to Vereeniging but opted for the one that move towards the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I accept that, well you said that you took the tar road in front of the factories, and I can point you to the road, is that the road?  There are the factories and that is the tar road, you walked on that road back to the hostel, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The main road, the route that joins Boipatong and kwaMadala hostel.  It joins Iscor and Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that is the - I think the name of the road is Noble Boulevard?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know.

MR STRYDOM: But my question in fact is, from the hostel to the tar road, did you follow a straight line, did you go in one street, directly to the tar road or did you move through the township, through many streets to get to the tar road or did you just take one road, straight to the tar road?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I stated before, we did not change directions.  We just walked along that route in Boipatong and joined the street that leads you to Boipatong, to Madala hostel.  That is the route we took.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, you said that you took a TV, a video and money?  Did you take the video in Boipatong township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, the TV, video and cash.

MR STRYDOM: Did you take that in the houses you went into, one of the five houses you went into initially?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: You also said and you must correct me if I am wrong, that the TV and the video was loaded into the casspir in Slovo Park, where it was parked, is that correct, to be transported back to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: This television set, can you describe the size, was it a big screen, a small screen or can you indicate the size?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was a big screen TV.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the size, how big was it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: About this size.

CHAIRPERSON: A big one?  What 51 cm?  Is it 67 or 51?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, the indication is the big one.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, just indicate again.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: About that size.

MR STRYDOM: About 66 cm's, that is the big size, the screen size I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are the television watchers?

MR BERGER: I am, the screen is 51, the size of the TV is bigger, but I can't guarantee the make.

MR STRYDOM: I know that is the medium size, but I will accept that for cross-examination purposes, 51 cm.   Now, you carried this television set and the video for some period, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I loaded them onto the casspir.  The only thing that I held onto was the cash.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, you said that the goods, the TV and the video, were loaded into the casspir at Slovo Park, so you must have carried it some distance?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not say so.  I did not say Slovo Park, I never mentioned Slovo Park.  I loaded them onto the casspir in the township.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, I asked you specifically where the loot was loaded into the casspirs and I mentioned the position where the casspirs came to a standstill in Slovo Park, in the road there where you indicated, and you said yes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You only questioned me on the property just now.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute ago, Counsel asked you whether the TV and the video were loaded into the casspir as Slovo Park and your answer was yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I said at the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no, he is not saying that you took the items from Slovo Park, all that is being put to you at this stage is that you said the items that were stolen, were loaded into the casspirs at Slovo Park, which is where all the casspirs were.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, the goods were loaded in the township.  I must have misunderstood that question.  As I said before, there are some questions that I do not understand.  I stole the goods from the houses in the township and that is where I loaded them onto the casspir.

CHAIRPERSON: No one is suggesting that you stole anything from Slovo Park, but what is being put to you is that it is at Slovo Park where all the stolen items were loaded into the casspirs.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I must have misunderstood.  He questioned me on how the casspirs proceeded to Slovo Park, but I did not say that the goods were loaded onto the casspirs at Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that he only asked you about how the casspirs followed one another to Slovo Park, is that the question that you heard?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The question related to the goods, I just heard of it now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.  Now from which house did you steal the TV, the video and the money, the first, the second, the third, the fourth or the fifth house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think it was the third house.

CHAIRPERSON: From the third house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think that is where I removed property from, yes, the third house.

CHAIRPERSON: All these three items, the money, the video and the TV?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I removed all of them from one house.

CHAIRPERSON: And you put them straight onto the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I loaded them onto the casspir as we walked along the street, then the Police were busy shooting at people in the street.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said you must load them onto the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Gatchene.

MR STRYDOM: Now apart from yourself, did the other people in your group also take things which they put into the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, many people stole property.  I am not the only person who stole from Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Was there any other people in your group that stole TV's?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, some people did and they also stole items of clothing and food if I remember correctly, as well as cash.

MR STRYDOM: And all of this was loaded into the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, everything was loaded onto the casspir.  Some were, some property was loaded onto the other casspirs, but I only noticed the ones that were loaded onto my casspir.

MR STRYDOM: How do you know stolen goods were also loaded into the other casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The people mentioned it.  I only concentrated on the casspir that I had been travelling in.  The items that were  burnt at the hostel, at Madala hostel, could not have been carried just in one casspir.  There were many items that were burnt at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: The question is, you didn't see other items being loaded into the other casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just heard, I did not see them loading the goods into the casspir, but I was told that other items had been stolen from Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: When the casspirs left the group behind, they went onto the hostel, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, they proceeded to kwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: When you got back, were these casspirs still there at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not see them again.