Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR CURRIN: : Thank you, we will ensure that you get oneand we will also make copies for our colleagues here.   As youaware, there are nine or 10 victims involved here, in order toexpedite the proceedings we've arranged with the RehabilitationCommittee to bring the necessary forms here this morning so thatthe mothers, the relatives, can complete the forms and we needn'tgo through the process of getting all that information in theseproceedings.   We have, however, arranged and spoken to the parentsand the mother of Abraham Makolane will testify on behalf of allthe family members as to how they feel about the proceedings andabout the applications.   Could we then please have Martha Makolaneto come forward?

CHAIRPERSON: ...to arrange for somebody to give supportif it's necessary.    What are her full names Mr Currin?

MR CURRIN: : Her names are Martha Makolane and she is themother of Abraham Makolane.
MARTHA MAKOLANE (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN
8.1b

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MR CURRIN 659 M MAKOLANE

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Makolane I'm going to ask questions toyou and you must answer the question as it arises and then waitfor the next question.   Is that clear?

ANSWER: Yes I hear you.

<UNKNOWN>: Is it correct that the other victims, mothersand one sister of the other victims appointed you to speak ontheir behalf as to how you feel as a group about these proceedings?

ANSWER: That's true, I've been asked by the relativesbut I'm not able to forgive.

<UNKNOWN>: Have you, besides not being able to forgiveand now you're speaking on behalf of everybody, they all saidthat to you?

ANSWER: That's true.

<UNKNOWN>: You've heard about the Truth Commission.

ANSWER: Yes, I did hear about the Truth Commission.

<UNKNOWN>: You know that the purpose of the Truth Commissionis to attempt to foster reconciliation in South Africa?

ANSWER: I don't have the conciliation as they have takenthem from my place to the place where they have killed them, Iwant them to go and fetch them where they've left them to bringthem home so that we will be able to bury them peacefully and,they have killed our children so they want us to forgive them.

<UNKNOWN>: When did you and your associates, the othermothers, learn about the death of your sons?

ANSWER: We started to hear last week about the deathof our children.

<UNKNOWN>: Was that the first time you heard about it?

ANSWER: That's true.
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MR CURRIN 660 M MAKOLANE

<UNKNOWN>: Who told you?

ANSWER: May the speaker repeat the question?

<UNKNOWN>: Who informed you and the other people?

ANSWER: We were told by CID's from Pretoria.

<UNKNOWN>: What did they tell you?

ANSWER: They told us our children were killed near Botswanaand they were bombed there.

<UNKNOWN>: Did they have any ideas where the bodies are?

ANSWER: They didn't tell us about their bodies.

<UNKNOWN>: What you would really like is to try and findthose bodies so that your children can be properly buried?

ANSWER: Yes we want those bodies as they have taken themfrom Mamelodi, they have got to go back and fetch them from thatplace and bring them back to Mamelodi so that we will be ableto bury them.

<UNKNOWN>: If you can do that, would that in some wayassist you in dealing with the terrible trauma that you have experienced?

ANSWER: Maybe we will be emotionally stable because sincethen we have been all searching for our bodies and we have notburied our children and what would satisfy us I'm not able toforgive any policeman who have done that act.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

CHAIRPERSON: Did your son tell you where he was going whenhe left home the last time?

ANSWER: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do when he didn't come home?

ANSWER: I searched.   I went to the police station.  I went to the mortuaries.   I was not able to find him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not learn from his friends where hecould have gone to?
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COMMITTEE 661 M MAKOLANE

ANSWER: The people he went with are his only friends.
NO EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE
QUESTIONS BEING ASKED BUT INAUDIBLE AS MICROPHONE NOT ON

CHAIRPERSON: You might as well do it now.

JUDGE WILSON: : If you can just tell us.

MR CURRIN: : Her son was Abraham Makolane.   He was 17at the time of his disappearance and he was a student at the JKekana High School in Mamelodi in Std 8.   Is there any more informationyou need?

CHAIRPERSON: Does he have a father?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : His father died in 1975.
COMMITTEE BEING ADDRESSED - INAUDIBLE - SPEAKER'S MIKE NOTON

CHAIRPERSON: Can you throw any light on that at all Mr Currin?

MR CURRIN: : According to the office of the Attorney-Generalit's going to be a matter of assumption and evidence at the trial.   They have gone to great pains to try and establish the identityof the children who were in that bus at the time and the listof names that we were given is really that which they seem tohave put together on what they've got.   If we were to try andprove it, I think we'd have to call evidence from the office ofthe Attorney-General.

CHAIRPERSON: Would none of the parents be able to give evidencethat they saw their sons getting into a Kombi and taking theirbelongings and leaving, waving goodbye to their parents or anythinglike that?

MR CURRIN: : They all say that, they all say that in thisparticular instance and on the same date.

CHAIRPERSON: We have no evidence about that, nobody hastold us that they saw their sons all getting into a particular
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MR CURRIN 662 M MAKOLANE
vehicle and leaving, what time they left, who else was presentwhen they left, we don't have any of that information.

MR CURRIN: : That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If any one of the parents did see that andcan give that evidence about the time of the departure, how manyof them were there, whether she recognised any others apart fromher own particular son and matters of that kind should be canvassed.

MR CURRIN: : Yes, we have some of that information.   Someof the parents are not sure of the exact date and also when childrenwere taken away, when children left for Kwandabele in some instancesa white Kombi was also used, in fact in many instances a whiteKombi was used, so that doesn't necessarily determine which incidentthey were involved in, but what we can do is go through what we'vegot if we could have a short adjournment and also have furtherdiscussions with the office of the Attorney-General and try andpresent a summary?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we would like a fuller picture of thecircumstances leading up to the departure of these people.  Someparents must have been present, they must have said goodbye totheir children or their children must have said goodbye to them.  Parents would have been able to say how many there were andgenerally ...

MR CURRIN: : Yes, we do have some of that information,we were going to lead all the parents...

CHAIRPERSON: Well you don't have to lead all the parents,if there is one parent who can give that evidence?

MR CURRIN: : Yes, I think as I say our original plan wasto do that but then after considering we thought we would try
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MR CURRIN 663 M MAKOLANE
and facilitate the proceedings and go this route.   You are quitecorrect, as a result of that change of strategy that evidenceisn't on record.   What we can do is now try and, if we couldhave a 10 minute adjournment, I'm sure we could get it all togetherand get one parent to present that information.

JUDGE NGCOBE: Before we do that, Mr Du Plessis are yousaying that there is some dispute about whether or not Mr Currin'sclients would have been the correct victims?