Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: What is your problem with that sentence in the light of what I've said? We did not keep records and in terms of the situation during the illegal period we didn't keep records the way a State would and in terms of the situation that then developed we didn't list names of people, we didn't keep records of that nature.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Mr Kasrils. I thought the question is fairly straightforward. What he is saying is didn't you, the ANC, think it was irresponsible to arm people over whom you had no control?

UNKNOWN: We did the best we could. I think it's easy with 20-20 eyesight looking back, Archbishop, we did the best we could. We responded to a plea from the community. We responded to a volatile and dangerous situation in which people were being slain and we believed that our people, our own members from MK, giving instruction, giving training, providing that handbook would be able that way to direct people in the best possible way. The situation obviously developed in different ways. I don't always want to refer to infiltrators and place the blame there, and I'm certainly not intending doing that now, but that also is a fact of life.
So a situation then developed in which certain mistakes and problems emerged, but we did the best we could and we gave very, very firm instructions, and our people who were involved with the communities attempted as best they could to control the situation when there was a breakdown in discipline or when certain people did their own thing. But I wouldn't say that it's irresponsible in the light of what happened. I mean obviously that's a judgment that can be made, that should be made, but we attempted as best we could to provide leadership and to provide control.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just say I have not been intervening because I should be even-handed and a characteristic of what happened here yesterday and with your submission which is something that I would seek to underline is the fact that there has actually been very little self-justification. I mean I think the noteworthy saying has been that when Hanif or somebody asks a question and it is clear that there was something wrong, on the whole what has happened on your side has been an acknowledgement. You've said yes.
There was a question about women's rights in the camps and I think what I am trying to say is it would be a very good thing to continue to point out that you aren't infallible. And it will be for us, a new atmosphere that is created of people saying if there is a mistake, even if you are saying it is with hindsight, if you say yes, you think it is a mistake or, then in fact whoever may be wanting to clobber you is going to find it very difficult to do so. But if you have an egg-dance then it becomes problematical and I just want to make that as a comment, that you are not infallible, you have never set yourselves up as being infallible, and if wrong things have happened the introduction into the discourse in our country of that kind of acceptance of moral responsibility which seems to have characterised your submission is something that people would say they admire.

UNKNOWN: Can I answer you Archbishop. I thank you for pointing that out and I apologise if I came across as performing an egg-dance. We unreservedly regret that any of our actions led to problems, led to abuses and led to deaths. We were shocked in Thokoza when the case emerged of a member of an SDU who took the law into his own hands and fired on a group of hostel dwellers who were on a march. And I think if we all remember it was horrific, it was ghastly to say the least, something like 46 people were killed and injured, and that individual was clearly somebody who had obtained weapons and had been part of the SDU's. That is absolutely regrettable and obviously it emerges out of the kind of situation that I described. So we are not infallible, and this clearly is a case, the whole context of this is an example of what could go wrong in very, very problematic situations. What I was simply attempting to do was to show how we attempted to intervene to assist people who were being killed which is why the document we issued was called "For the sake of our lives". So I really accept the points you've made.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: If I may Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mbeki.