Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR CILLIERS: With the greatest respect, after nine hours, almost nine and a half hours, being involved here, and my situation is critical now, after nine, nine and a half hours here where we said you can limit tea breaks or lunch breaks, now to say it is more than double the ordinary day, while witnesses being cross-examined, to say now this is a ploy after this morning, I told you the first thing, that I was only available till five o'clock.
 That is improper for Mr Vally to suggest that I am busy with a ploy.  The position is like I have explained to you.  I cannot stay any longer, and my client's choice is still the same.
 He is not going to answer questions if he does not have proper legal counsel.  The attorney who was here yesterday, does not agree with the factual submissions Mr Vally has made.  I don't know whether it is necessary here now to listen to various accusations, to throw accusations to and fro.
 This is my position.  My learned colleague can pose his questions and I give you the undertaking that these questions will be answered within five days.

CHAIRPERSON: My only concern now Mr Cilliers, is how do we deal with the situation where the circumstances are extraordinary and I am sure I needn't say why they are quite extraordinary.  At this stage we have a situation where Mr Vally indicates how many or what sort of questions he thinks he needs some clarification or some answers to.
 I hear what you are saying about written representations, but they never amount to what one gets by way of questions being put in a question and answer situation.

MR CILLIERS: If I can be of assistance, if they are follow up questions, then I would say that I will also answer the follow up questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I am quite acquainted with what is possible.  I am simply considering what would, apart from what is possible, but what would be in the best interest of all parties.  I am not so sure whether the panel is actually very appreciative of your professional engagement this evening.
 It seems to me that you are saying that you are not in a physical position to continue.

MR CILLIERS: No, I am really tired, but I am not hiding behind my physical capabilities.  My client has also told me that he is physically very tired, but I am not telling you that it is physically impossible to go.  I am just mentioning to you that we have been busy for about nine hours, and we had about three hours' sleep last night.

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, could we have a five minute recess while you are considering this?

MR CILLIERS: My problem is that a five minute recess is really going to put me in hot water.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what part of the problem, quite frankly, I must be open with you Mr Cilliers, part of my problem is that I am not persuaded and I am not deciding, I am not persuaded that I have had a reason that you are professionally engaged tonight anywhere else in a manner that suggests to me that you should step out of a matter in which you are professionally engaged, in view of the ethics that govern our profession.
 I just, well you have told me that you are going to be preparing to consult, I don't know what that means for something that needs to be filed on Monday.

MR CILLIERS: With the greatest respect Honourable Chairperson, if you feel that I am ethically acting incorrectly, then you can lay a claim against me.  I am sure you are aware of the proceedings or the procedures, but I have no problem with that.
 If you feel it is your duty, please do that.  I have no problem with handling such a situation, but this is my position and if my actions are improper, then surely serious steps will be taken against me.  That is my position and I am asking your permission to leave now.

ADV POTGIETER: Have you discussed this with the people from the Bar?

MR CILLIERS: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: This situation we are talking about now?

MR CILLIERS: No, not this situation.

ADV POTGIETER: So if you leave, your client is not going to be prepared to continue?

MR CILLIERS: The situation which my colleague discussed, was after this judgment of Justice Hlophe that we had to be here on Wednesday, especially myself.  I received a specific instruction and my learned colleague as well.
 We did approach them and it is a very important situation, as you cannot leave the people in the lurch now despite the situation here now, and we are supposed to adhere to that instruction.   So we did approach the Bar Council.

ADV POTGIETER: Can you speak to the Chairperson of the Bar Council now?

MR CILLIERS: No, it is twenty past five, I don't think so.

ADV POTGIETER: Can you give us his details?

MR CILLIERS: Yes, it is Mr Grobler.

ADV POTGIETER: From Pretoria?

MR CILLIERS: Correct, I am from the Pretoria Bar, yes.  But you are welcome, if you request me to go to the Bar Council myself, and if you make the request that I must, you know yourself, you are also in a Bar.  You can give me the instruction and then I will report myself.

ADV POTGIETER: I think it would be of assistance if we could speak to Adv Grobler right now.  We are going to try and do that.

MR CILLIERS: Well, my problem is I am asking you've got to let me go.  My plane is an hour from now, it is leaving and really now it is becoming, it is final now.  I would like to leave now, I would like leave for the airport now.

ADV POTGIETER: And you are not prepared in any sense to stay put until we have spoken to Adv Grobler?

MR CILLIERS: If it was five or ten minutes a go, yes, maybe or if we did it this morning, yes, but I see on the watch of my colleague, it is already twenty one minutes after five.  I simply cannot spend another ten minutes here.
 I am telling you it is Friday afternoon, it is almost half past five, and I do not know his personal home number, but our Bar, the phone stops at a quarter to five, so you can't even phone him there.  To get his home number, I don't know how long that is going to take, so I don't think - you are not going to get an answer in the next probably 40 or 50 minutes.

ADV POTGIETER: What time is your flight?

MR CILLIERS: If I have it correct, it is 18H25.  That is the last Sun Air flight we could get.  You know the flights on Friday nights from Cape Town to Jo'burg are really booked, fully booked.  You know that yourself, you live here but your colleagues who fly from Johannesburg, Monday morning to Jo'burg and Friday night back, it is a real problem with flights.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cilliers, this is one of those moments that I feel very heavy in my heart because I am seeking to find the wisdom of Solomon in dealing with this situation.
 You are a colleague and you have made, I must say with all the respect that you can command, a (indistinct) to us that we should take your circumstances into account.  I cannot fault you for saying the things that you have said, I have consulted with my colleagues who are quite concerned also about the fact that you have to leave at a time when we have an indication from Mr Vally that there are questions that he still needs to put to your client.
 In the circumstances, I do not consider that it is in me as representing the panel, to say we are able to excuse you.  We can't stop you from leaving, but we certainly cannot say we are excusing you.  We therefore leave the matter to you as an election as to what you consider ...

MR CILLIERS: May I ask for a short adjournment so maybe by using a phone, I can change my flight time and then I would be able to tell you within a few minutes if it is at all possible to change it, but otherwise it is my position.  Then I then would have to go.  If you will give me five minutes, I will see if I can make some kind of arrangements, maybe with regards to the later flight even though I understand this is the last flight, but I am just asking for five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Five minutes.  We are adjourned for about five minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS