Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-17

JACK MOFOKENG: I'm very happy that this Committee has made it possible for me to meet families of the deceased so that I can ask for forgiveness before them, because it was not my intention, it was because of the unrest and violence of that time that we ended up killing these policemen.
	We as the members of the ANC and the SDU did not accept what the police were doing to the community, so I'm happy now that we have achieved our goals, that is freedom.  So I also ask for forgiveness so that I can be free and I can come out and contribute to the upliftment of our communities outside.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair, that concludes the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sesele, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mofokeng, when you were recruited into the SDU by Mr Mohomane, were you told what was going to be your job, your work?

JACK MOFOKENG: Yes, that is correct.

MR SESELE: You said there were two groups of SDUs, one group was known to the community and the other one was not known to the community.

JACK MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR SESELE: And you belonged to the group that was not known to the community?

JACK MOFOKENG: That is correct, we were known by the leadership.

MR SESELE: What was the work of the first group that was known by the community?

JACK MOFOKENG: It was the same work that we did to protect the community but they were not doing exactly what we were doing in terms of methods to protect the community because we were an underground structure.

MR SESELE: And your immediate commander was Mr Mohomane?

JACK MOFOKENG: Yes, that is correct, it was comrade Mohomane.

MR SESELE: Did you have regular meetings with him?

JACK MOFOKENG: We met once or twice a week.

MR SESELE: Except for Mr Mohomane, was there any other leader from a higher structure whom you knew?

JACK MOFOKENG: No, Sir.

MR SESELE: It appears from your application forms that no mention is made of Mr Mohomane, do you remember making mention of his names when these application forms were completed by him?

JACK MOFOKENG: Yes, that is correct.  I explained to him and then he said to me we would only mention his name when we appear before the Commission.

MR SESELE: When you were called and you heard that there were two police officers in the restaurant, were you told the names of those police officers?

JACK MOFOKENG: No, Sir, I was not told of their identity.

MR SESELE: In Court a certain witness called Mr Kele gave uncontradicted evidence that Mr Mohomane is the one who made the suggestion that Sergeant Makau should be killed because he was investigating a case against him, did you hear anything like that in Court?

JACK MOFOKENG: That is a lie, that is a person who was used by the police, he was bought with money because even in Court he said he does not know me though we know each other, then he said he doesn't know me.  Then I asked him why does he deny that he knew me ...(no English translation)

MR SESELE: Did you personally know the two police officers who were killed?

JACK MOFOKENG: I did not know them, I only knew the car.

MR SESELE: After the shooting incident, say even in prison, was there any mention made of Sergeant Makau?

JACK MOFOKENG: You mean when we were in prison or do you mean during the trial or when we were in prison?  It was that person called Kele who created that confusion.  He came to us with money and he wanted to bribe our comrade, so that was the person who was creating that confusion.  I didn't hear that.

MR SESELE: Whilst you were in prison before you were convicted, didn't you hear Mr Mohomane talking about Sergeant Makau?

JACK MOFOKENG: No, Sir, we were not in the same cell with him.

MR SESELE: Throughout your detention you have never been in the same cell with Mr Mohomane?

JACK MOFOKENG: I don't know those people, I didn't hear them.  I didn't hear Mr Mohomane mention those names.

MR SESELE: You didn't know Mr Mohomane, is that what you're saying?

JACK MOFOKENG: Pardon?

MR SESELE: Are you saying that you didn't know ...(intervention)

JACK MOFOKENG: I'm saying I did not know the identity of those policemen and I didn't even hear Mr Mohomane mentioning their names whilst we were in prison.

MR SESELE: You said you understood from Mr Mohomane that the ANC leadership approved of your actions, is that right?

JACK MOFOKENG: May you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR SESELE: You said you got the impression from Mr Mohomane that the SDUs you were going to be involved with in attacking the police station, attacking the police, that action of yours was known by the leadership and approved.

JACK MOFOKENG: Yes, I do, because he was my commander.  I agreed with whatever he said.

MR SESELE: I put it to you, Mr Mofokeng, that when the shooting in particular Sergeant Makau, the only person who had to gain and perhaps even yourself, was Mr Mohomane because he wanted to get rid of somebody who was investigating him.

JACK MOFOKENG: I don't know that, I hear that for the first time from you.

MR SESELE: At the restaurant, if I heard you properly you were told that there were three policemen in the restaurant.

JACK MOFOKENG: Comrade Mosia informed us that there were three.  We were surprised that we only saw two.  Even if it was a lot of policemen in that kombi we would attack them still.

MR SESELE: Would you know what happened to the third policeman in the restaurant?

JACK MOFOKENG: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR SESELE: Would you know what happened to the third policeman in the restaurant?

JACK MOFOKENG: I don't know, Sir.

MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sesele.  Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination, Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: One or two questions.
	About the SDUs, how are they constituted?  You say there were two SDUs, one for the community and another one underground.  How was the community SDU constituted?

JACK MOFOKENG: We were working underground, we were an underground movement.  So people knew us during the day, they just took us as normal people, as ordinary people.

DR TSOTSI: Yes, but you don't answer my question.  My question was, what about the SDUs who were known to the community, how were they constituted?

JACK MOFOKENG: Their main function was to report to our commanders about the operations, then we will receive our instruction through them.

DR TSOTSI: How were they made up?  I'm trying to find out if there is any connection between them and the ANC.
Do you know or don't you know how they were formed?

JACK MOFOKENG: I did not know how they were constituted, maybe their commander knew about that because I was not part of the leadership so I didn't have that information then.

DR TSOTSI: Now you say that Mohomane told you that the leadership had ordered that the police should be attacked, did he explain to you who this leadership was that he was referring to?

JACK MOFOKENG: He told us that we'll have to meet Mr Mofokeng but unfortunately I was arrested before I could meet Mr Mofokeng.

DR TSOTSI: Are you saying that Mofokeng was part of that leadership?

JACK MOFOKENG: That is how he explained it to me.

MR SESELE: But you don't know the higher leadership?

JACK MOFOKENG: In our area Steve Potlela was one of the leadership there but I don't know other leaders.

DR TSOTSI: To whom was Mr Mohomane answerable, do you know?

JACK MOFOKENG: He told me about Mr Mofokeng, he never mentioned other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?