Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Now, in your evidence you stated that that Saturday morning you went to Brigadier Jan du Preez' house to inquire what you should do with the car belonging to Mr Mxenge.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Why was it necessary to clear that with Brigadier Jan du Preez when the order had been received from Brigadier van der Hoven?

WITNESS:   He was the most superior.  He was headquarters, and if there was any decision about the possible change of cars with Oshikathi Special Unit

UNKNOWN: /they fell

UNKNOWN: they fell under Security Police Headquarters, as Brigadier van Hoven, so it should have been agreed by headquarters themselves.  It wouldn't have been allowed for Brigadier van Hoven to clear it out with Brigadier Hans Dreyer at Oshikathi.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just ask you a question.  You've used the word bounty to describe the R1 000,00 that were paid to each of these people.  Is there any difference in your mind between a reward and a bounty?

WITNESS:   No, not at all.  It was actually a word that I learnt from the journalist, and in Afrikaans they called "kopgeld."  Now, I think "kopgeld," head money, comes from the notorious Kufoot Unit, where they were paid R2 000,00 per head.  So bounty actually came from a journalistic term, but it was reward money in my seeing.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're quite clear in your mind that at no stage was there anything to indicate to your colleagues that this was a job they have to do for which they will be handsomely rewarded?

WITNESS:   Not beforehand for sure.  100% I can assure you that, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: You did mention when you were being questioned about this earlier that you did not know of any payments being made to white police officers, but that they got medals.

WITNESS:   Yes, and what I had in mind specifically was the London bombing in 1982, when I had a little tea party, General Johan Coetzee, with Craig Williamson, Gene de Kock and others involved, during which they were awarded with medals of some kind.

WILSON J: And did this happen frequently, that they weren't perhaps public awards, but that they received decorations

WILSON J: /for their

WILSON J: for their undercover work?

WITNESS:   That came out, yes.

WILSON J: I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that evidence was led at the de Kock trial that he was the most highly decorated policeman in the South African Police Force.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: And was this for his murders, assassinations and other such work?

WITNESS:   100% sure.  For no honest one police day's work.

WILSON J: So that, I think, tends to prove that his superior officers were fully aware of what he was doing.

WITNESS:   Absolutely, Mr Chairman.  I have also got a newspaper clipping of General Johan van der Merwe on The Star, when him and his attorney or advocate addressed the Standing Committee on - I think when they were talking about this Peace and Reconciliation Act, where he clearly said, "No policeman can act on his own in this manner without his superior knowing about it," and he feels - and then he speak for himself - "That we have been prostituted by the politicians."

WILSON J: And a record would of course be kept of all awards made.  They would be documented at a higher level.

WITNESS:  In Special Force orders every single one of them, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: Thank you.

MR DE JAGER: The car had to be recognised, because the whole scheme was that people should think they had taken his car back and they had burnt it at the border.

WITNESS:   Well, there's no question of specifically thinking of being recognised.  If they eventually - if it doesn't burn out completely, and they recognise it as Mxenge's car, then they would see that this people has actually left the 	/country

MR DE JAGER: country after burning the car.

MR DE JAGER: But wasn't that the intention why you took the car

MR DE JAGER: there, so that people may think they've gone back with the car and left it there?

WITNESS:   That was the intention, ja.

MR DE JAGER: And so it should have been recognisable as Mr Mxenge's car.

WITNESS:   If they recognised ... (incomplete - end of Side B, Tape 3) ... that this is Mr Mxenge's car if the CID, through their investigation, detected that it was Mxenge's car.  Usually numberplates are taken off when cars are stolen, they are usually fitted with false numberplates, so to - I suppose not to make it that obvious.

MR DE JAGER: But, Mr Coetzee, you yourself decided to take the car there and to leave it and to burn it there.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR DE JAGER: So it was your scheme.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR DE JAGER: And now please explain then ... (inaudible) ... to take off the numberplates?

WITNESS:   Well, in the end, without even the numberplates on it, Murder and Robbery was from Durban that same day when the car was found, and they took photos of it, and on the docket they have identified that car as Mr Mxenge's car.

CHAIRPERSON: In the light of the attitude of Mr Mshe and counsel for the Mxenge family that they would like to reserve their questioning of this witness until tomorrow morning, would there be any point in allowing you or asking you to re-examine this witness, or would you rather do that later?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, I think it would be more sensible to reserve my re-examination until all other examination is finished.  I don't know whether my learned
	/friend,
friend, Mr Marais, has any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Marais, do you have questions to put to this witness?

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have some.

MR MARAIS: QUESTIONED BY MR MARAIS

MR MARAIS: You said, Mr Coetzee, that you regarded it as an order which you received that Mr Mxenge should be killed.  Did you then in return order the other persons who did the actual killing to go ahead and execute it?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MARAIS: And what would your attitude have been if they had refused to comply with your order?

WITNESS:   Mr Chairman, that poses a big problem.  I can just quote what happened with Brian Ngulungwa, for instance, when he knew too much and then decided to backtrack.  He was killed, and it was admitted.  What happened to the Motherwell three policemen and the askari when they threatened to expose?  With other words they were involved and then threatened to expose, and they were blown up in a car bomb by their own white colleagues, for which they were found guilty.  And in the same way if the team has been involved, and the murder was executed in the end without the one that pulled back, I am sure they would have made a plan with him, in the sense that he then knew too much and could possibly expose it.

MR MARAIS: And was this type of retribution for refusing to obey orders known amongst the constables, the student constables at Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   I think it was quite obvious to him, because I can, for instance, mention the case of Isaac Ace Mohema, who just asked to much questions to the liking of us at Vlakplaas, and he eventually disappeared, and the was taken care by Captain Koos

MR MARAIS: /Vereulen

MR MARAIS: Vermeulen in the same way - doped, shot and burnt.

MR MARAIS: What did ... (intervention)

WILSON J: Was he a constable or an askari?

WITNESS:   Was that Isaac Ace Mohema?

WILSON J: Mmm.

WITNESS:   No, he was a man that came over from the ANC and joined Vlakplaas - askari.

WILSON J: They were much more vulnerable, weren't they?

WITNESS:  Absolutely, Mr Chairman.

MR MARAIS: Of the three persons who executed this killing - or the four, who were policemen and who were askaris?