Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, now at the time when you decided to kill Mr Maphaha because the child was last seen with him, you knew that Mr Maphaha's reason for killing the child was because he was jealous of that child, is that not so?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: When we went to Mr Maphaha we would not have killed him if he handed over the child because on that day he failed to hand over the child who was last seen with him resulted into him being killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Subsequently, was that child found?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: From there I didn't know whether she was found because I was immediately arrested because of this cases I'm now applying for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: It's about ten years ago, have you heard whether she was found or not?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Up to now to tell you the honest truth I have not received that information because they're in jail, there are not many people who used to come and visit me.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	You constantly are saying that you wanted and planned to make Venda ungovernable or the area ungovernable.  Why did you want to make the area ungovernable?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's because the Venda citizens, not ...(indistinct) citizens only, all Venda citizens were intending to make the government to fall or be incorporated into South Africa because we were tired of it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, so that was the main goal, you wanted Venda to be incorporated back into South Africa.  Was that the main goal?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes that was our main goal.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you something.  Under the Nationalist apartheid government that would not happen, do you know that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: You mean what will not happen?

CHAIRPERSON: Under the old government, reincorporation would not occur, do you know that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes it will not happen, that is why people were striking and trying to do all things to make the government ungovernable, to make it be incorporated although it would be difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: That's why I'm asking you now, this question, which government are you talking about.  One small government in Venda or are talking about the real corporate government of South Africa?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you wanted to make the government, country ungovernable and see to the demise of the government, are you referring to the small government of Venda or were you referring to the real controllers of the country, the Nationalist government?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I'm talking in terms of the small government of Venda.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, let's turn to the murder of Mr Madadzhe on that 2nd February.  What was this person's position in the community?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: She was a headman or Ingoma.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she a female?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: He was a male.

CHAIRPERSON: It was interpreted as she.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	You see that is exactly my problem, is it not so that the head person at that stage was in fact a female by the name of Tina Vuyo Madadzhe, namely the deceased's wife?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: What you are saying I don't understand it, would you please repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: What I'm saying is that the person that you killed was not in fact the headman, his wife was in charge, the person with the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You know Mr van Rensburg, I often wondered to myself how these tribal communities handled the gender issue of the constitution because we've on many occasions been told that never ever will a woman be a headman, only men can do that.  My colleague refers to that as headperson, I'm not too sure if she's right?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I don't think I'll continue with this line, I just wanted his reaction on that.
	You testified that at a meeting a person pointed his finger at you and said that as long as that person is in charge the government will not fall, can you remember that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I still remember but that was not on the 2nd February.  I indicated even yesterday that it happened before the 2nd February.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I appreciate that, I know that it was before the date of the murder.  What I want to know from you, who is that person who pointed the finger at you and promised that as long as he is in power the government will not fall?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's a certain chief who was called Norman Chicororo who on that day he was troubled with the old man, Mr Madadzhe and Madadzhe, both of them, they pointed at me with their fingers.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So you were actually ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What's the problem with pointing to somebody with a finger?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: There is a problem in the Black culture because a person can point me and say you will say it and if I look down upon that sometimes I can find myself in trouble or the following day I died.  Then when he pointed me with a finger the people next to me said you must take cognisance of that thing, that person has pointed you by a finger and you mustn't look above that thing seeing that there are people dying mysteriously.  It's possible that you can also die unfailing.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm happy one previous state president was not in Africa because he used to point fingers.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	When you testified in your evidence in chief you mentioned a person uttering these words.  Let's not now worry about the pointing of the finger, let's worry about the uttering of the words.  The person who said this government will not fall as long as he is the chief, that person when you testified that you were referring to Chief Chicororo, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay now and yesterday you only testified that it was that same person, Chicororo, who pointed the finger at you, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes, yesterday I indicated that Madadzhe pointed me by a finger in the car of Mr Chicororo.  Maybe where I didn't put it clear yesterday is that even Chief Chicororo pointed me with a finger, I think that is where I didn't indicate yesterday, they all pointed a finger at me that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Of course you didn't die you lived to tell the tale.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, now the person at that meeting, that person with the higher rank was obviously Chief Chicororo, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: On that meeting Chief Chicororo was not invited.  It's only the youth who were invited, it's only the people who - Mr Chicororo wasn't in the meeting so I'm asking that you rephrase your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, I'm not worried if he was there, what I'm asking is, of the two persons between Madadzhe and Chicororo, Chicororo was the highest ranking person, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And Chief Chicororo was openly defending the government of the day by saying it will not fall as long as he is in power, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now what I want to know is why didn't you attempt to kill Chief Chicororo?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Those attempts were made before.  We once went to his home at Mdisane and we tried to attempt to kill him but we failed because he wasn't there and then we destroyed everything which was there, we attempted to do so because what he was - the way in which he was ruling us was not to our will.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear you, could you please repeat?

ADV DE JAGER: You're appearing for both families of the deceased?

MR VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And do you also appear for the assaulted person, Simete?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No Mr Chairperson, I do not have instructions from the said person, Mrs Simete.