Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct, Colonel, that in this area there are bluegum trees on either side of the road, it's a plantation area.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So was the vehicle on the left side of the road?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, as he had approached from the border he was on the left side of the road, in other words the same side that we were in position and that is where he stopped.

MR PRINSLOO: So he would run to the closest side of the plantation by going past the front of the vehicle?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that was towards the side of the road where we were in position.

MR PRINSLOO: Continue.  What happened next?  Was there any shooting or not?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Col de Kock jumped up immediately and ran closer and all of us jumped up and followed him.  As we approached the vehicle, it was probably 5 metres according to my estimation, a person jumped out of the left front side of the vehicle.  He had an AK47 in his hands and I am convinced that he fired a shot because I could quite clearly see the flame coming from the front of the barrel.  It appeared to me as if the barrel was aimed in the direction of Manzini.  I was also under the impression that he had not noticed us immediately and the moment when he fired the shot he became aware of us and he began to turn in the direction of Col de Kock, who at that stage was very close to him.  Col de Kock immediately fired at him and he fell.  At that stage W/O Theron stood behind us with a sharp light and in the light I could see quite clearly that there were other barrels in the kombi.  I immediately fired at the person in the kombi and so also the other members.  After a short shooting incident, I think it was Col de Kock who shouted for us to cease fire and all of us ceased fire and determined that all the passengers were dead.

MR PRINSLOO: Were any weapons found in the possession of these persons?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, there was a loaded AK47 gun with an extra magazine.  The weapons were cocked, ready to shoot and there were also carry bags in which we found hand grenades,

MR PRINSLOO: Was this of Russian origin?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: These persons after they were killed, was a service officer called in?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, if I recall correct it was a Capt Combrink from Piet Retief.

MR PRINSLOO: And was the scene then visited by him?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And were the deceased taken to the state mortuary at the police station?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And according to the coroner reports, which can be found in bundle 5, if I can refer you to certain aspects of bundle 5, page 105 for example.  The injuries which the persons had.  If we look at this case on page 105  were there any body wounds?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, there were body wounds.

MR PRINSLOO: And that also appears to be the case on page 106?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: On page 113.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes there are also chest wounds and injuries to the ribs.

MR PRINSLOO: So there were body wounds as well as head injuries?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And were various shots fired at that vehicle?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, a great number.

MR PRINSLOO: Colonel, on that day you were not in command of the action, on the 12th June, Mr de Kock was in command, is that correct?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And why did you act as the person who would have been in command and not Mr de Kock, for the purposes of the post mortem inquest.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Chairperson after the incident, I cannot recall precisely when this happened, there was an instruction.  I cannot connect it to a specific person, I don't know whether it came via Middelburg or directly from Head Office, but someone gave me an instruction that they wanted to scrap Mr de Kock's name from the 2nd incident because this could make the 2nd inquest problematic if there was information indicating that he was involved in two very similar incidents so shortly after each other and that is why the statement was submitted that indicated that I was the Commander.

MR MALAN: Excuse me Mr Prinsloo, could this request have come from Mr de Kock himself?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No, I think I would have remembered that if he himself had issued the request.  I have it that it came from Head Office but as I have stated I cannot recall precisely who issued the instruction.

MR MALAN: What makes you think that you would have remembered it if it came from Mr de Kock?  Why wouldn't you have remembered it if it had been somebody else at Head Office?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Because later a dispute arose and I would have been able to indicate to him that it was him who gave me the instruction.  I am not saying that I would have remembered it, but I am saying that in all probability if he had given me the instruction I would have remembered that it was him.

CHAIRPERSON: Would such an instruction go directly from Head Office to yourself, or would it go to Middelburg and then down to you?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is why I have said that I am not very certain.  Usually it would probably have gone through Middelburg, but I would have to speculate to put that as a genuine fact.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Deetlefs, bundle 5, page 23, the paginated page 23, there is Christo Petro Deetlefs until page 26, which is the last page of your statement.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And according to the statement, it was made on the 17th June 1998.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And in this statement you stated that you were in command of that operation?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Was that true or false?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No, that was not correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And without having to study the entire statement, was any use made of a revolving light to indicate the presence of a road-block?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No, not before the incident.

MR PRINSLOO: And in the statement itself, you state in paragraph 11 on page 24 that you immediately began to shoot at the black man and heard that other members also opened fire, is that correct?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No.  Because I had to stand in for Mr de Kock there had to have been somebody who shot at the black man who climbed out, so that is why I stated that it was me.

MR PRINSLOO: And you also gave evidence in the subsequent inquest where Mr Polman was the magistrate?
Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And there you also told lies to certain aspects with regard to that evening?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, those very same lies which we have just pointed out in the statement were also told there.

MR PRINSLOO: And you yourself applied for amnesty on the 13th of December 1996?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And questions have already been put about this, why did you apply for amnesty on the 13th of December 1996?