Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: At that stage, Mr Chairman, I did not know, they just said they were not satisfied and that they were waiting for Commissioner Nqoya.  I found out later what the reason was.   Mr Chair, while we were still in Colonel Bonguza's office, Inspector Mfene and two or three other members arrived there.  They told us, we weren't requested, they told us that we must accompany them, that we must go to the College hall and that we weren't allowed to stay alone in Colonel Bonguza's office.  We then accompanied him and Colonel Oosthuizen, Bonguza and myself, we stood outside, next to the hall was a tree, we stood under the tree.  The side doors of the hall was open.   Nkwenkwe was sitting, I could see him there and while we were still standing under the tree, Nkwenkwe shouted and said that we must be brought into the hall because we weren't allowed to stand outside and that we were having our own meeting, gathering there.  We were then instructed, I don't know who the member was, that we should go into the hall, we weren't allowed to stand outside.  On our entering the hall, we were told to sit on the stage, there was a table and we were told to sit behind the table.  I sat first from the left, as we came in, Colonel Oosthuizen and then Colonel Bonguza and some other Officers that were there.  On our entering, I saw that there were a lot of people, a lot of members, even the students that were still undergoing training, were there.  They were singing, shouting, it was chaos.  Inspector Mfene, he was sitting at a table, Peteni was at a table and a few other members were there.  At that stage, there was no loudhailer, people were shouting, people were trying to talk from the front.  Eventually at some stage, they saw that there was nobody appointed as a Chairman to address the meeting.  Inspector Mfene was then appointed as Chairman of the meeting.  Throughout the whole evening, he carried on as Chairman of the meeting.  The first, I will say the first part of the meeting, there was a big argument between the members from the floor with Captain Mondo, they were wanting the keys to the armoury at the Bisho Logistics which is just situated next to the Police College.  They wanted the keys to the armoury, some of the Logistics personnel said they did not have the keys, the others said it was with Colonel Vuso.  I think she was then a Constable, female Constable Nhlela, she was also shouting and saying that the keys were with Mondo.  Eventually a group of people from the members were appointed to go to the Police Logistics and the armoury to go and fetch the key, to get the key, to arm themselves.  They got the key, Colonel Vuso was brought to the meeting.  After the members armed themselves, a loudhailer was found because some of the members at the back of the hall couldn't hear what was going on.  Then with the loudhailer, they started talking about pension money that they wanted to be paid out to them, they spoke about funds, some funds of the Ciskei that they wanted to be paid out to them.  That is at that stage that it seemed to me that that is what this meeting was about, it was that they were wanting their pension money, they were wanting other moneys that were paid into clubs.  The matters of promotions were brought in.  While these discussions were taking place, I say discussions, but if I can put it in my own words, it was an absolute circus.  Other officers were brought in.  Captain Makwethu, they were mocked, they were made fools of.  As Captain Makwethu said, they questioned him about money he was alleged to have stolen.  While they were addressed from the Chair, from the table, people were still singing.  They were singing songs "down with Gqozo", but as Captain Makwethu said, they changed it to anybody they liked, who was brought in, they changed the name to that.  Later Mr Goosen and two or three other gentlemen, I don't know who they were, they came in.  They told the meeting that then Brigadier Gqozo had resigned.  That is the only part of the meeting that I thought had something to do with politics, when they were told that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned, because at no stage while I was present at that meeting, was anything whatsoever, except the singing, mentioned that the purpose of the meeting was to have Brigadier Gqozo to resign, was to have the Officers to support them.  At no stage was that brought to our attention.  We were, if I say we, myself and Colonel Oosthuizen, at one stage we spoke to he was then Inspector at that stage, Pongola.  We said "what do we have to do here, we are seconded members, we have got nothing to do with this, can't we be released".  He spoke to the people at the table, I can't say exactly to whom and he said that he was going to take us out, they can let us go because we've got nothing to do with the Ciskei and the Police there as we were only there to train them and to help them.  Nkwenkwe and  Nhlela again, they are the people that shouted and said "no", we are part of the Police, the Ciskei Police, we are working there, we cannot be let go.  Pongola took us up to the door to let us go and then we were turned back there again by other members who were armed with R4's, R5 rifles.  We then stayed at the meeting.  During the course of the meeting, General, the Commissioner, Gen Nqoya, he was brought in, other Officers were brought in.  They were mocked, they were asked about finances.  Commissioner Nqoya was asked about an affair he had with a certain Captain, a woman Captain.  Then later during the evening, they questioned him also about the moneys, about the pensions, why didn't he come back to come and address them from Brigadier Gqozo's office where he said he was going to see him regarding the pension money, about what is going to happen with them and then they asked about the moneys, about the paying out of the moneys.  Then he said he's got, that is now Nqoya, he said that he cannot sign for the money alone, that Brigadier Nkani and Giba also had to sign.  Then members were sent to go and fetch Brigadier Nkani and Brigadier Giba.  They were brought to the meeting.  They were held there until the next morning.  I can just also mention that when Mr Goosen was there, he also requested the members and the Committee at the hall, that the Officers should be released and they, the members and the Committee, did not want to release the Officers.  He told them that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned, there was no need to keep us hostage any more, they refused.    The next morning, Mr Jurgens arrived with one or two other people again.  The questions that were put to them, to Mr Jurgens, had nothing to do with politics.  It revolved around the promotions of members and the alleged fraud cases, the investigation thereof and they wanted him to give a decision right there and then about Nqoya, Makwethu and those people, to be, that they will be prosecuted.  He told them that he couldn't do that, he still had to go and see what was going on, read the cases and in due course, he would give his decision.   He then left.  The two Ciskei Defence Force members, the only two members that I saw from the Defence Force, arrived there that morning as well.  It was only then that I heard that the Committee and the Police members there were informed that the Civil Servants and the Defence Force members were going to the Bisho Independence Stadium where they were going to be addressed by Brigadier Gqozo.  At no other stage, the whole night, was anything mentioned, nothing regarding politics were mentioned.  That was the first time that I heard that Brigadier Gqozo was going to address them.  The whole meeting the whole night, was as I said, about the money, about promotions, the moneys that had to be paid out to them.  It had to be explained to the members at one stage, that the pension cannot be paid out to them, the pension moneys could not be paid out to them the next morning as they wanted it to be done, because those moneys weren't kept at Police Headquarters, those moneys were paid in at certain insurance companies, to get interest and that.  Only then did they understand that.  The rest of the moneys, they wanted.  Gen Nqoya and Brigadier Nkani and Giba, they were taken by some members to the Bisho Police Headquarters, to go and get I don't know if it is cheques or what, but to go and organise and to go and work out what moneys must be drawn for the members to be paid out.  That according to me, was their main cause the whole evening.  The meeting that was, if I can just come back to the 22nd, the morning of the 22nd, the meeting that was to be held at the Bisho Police College hall that morning, the Inspectors, that is why only the Inspectors were summoned to that meeting, the Inspectors were going to be addressed by two Ciskei Police Inspectors who were sent, I think it was to Pretoria, I am not sure, to be informed about procedures that would have to be followed in training members for duties and what is expected of the Police at the forthcoming elections as they had never performed duties in such instances.  That is what the meeting was supposed to be for.