Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR CURRIN: ... after Mr Maake was shocked to death beforeMr Sefola, did he disclose further information to you which hedid not disclose earlier?

MR VAN VUUREN: Yes, he did.
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MR CURRIN: /...
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MR CURRIN: Mr Van Vuuren, you have given testimony thatthe place where the interrogation occurred, was a place that waswell-known to you, is that correct?

MR VAN VUUREN: It is correct.

MR CURRIN: Is that another reason why you used the place?

MR VAN VUUREN: That is the case.

MR CURRIN: Mr Van Vuuren, this particular cell, this Sefola,Maake, Makope cell, did they operate in your area as well, didthey commit any acts in your area?

MR VAN VUUREN: Yes, there were acts of terror committedin our area.

MR CURRIN: Would that have been a reason for you in yourinvestigations also to engage Sefola although he was living inWitbank?

MR VAN VUUREN: That is the case.

MR CURRIN: Mr Van Vuuren, would it have been practicallypossible during the course of your investigation in view of MrSefola's living in Witbank to call in persons from the Witbankarea Security Police and to hand over the investigation to them?

MR VAN VUUREN: No, that was not practicable.

MR CURRIN: Would it have been your practice to do so?

MR VAN VUUREN: No, in view of the work of myself and MrHechter and Mr Mamasela, this would not have been possible.

JUDGE WILSON: ... to have asked the Witbank Security Policewhether the action you proposed to take would interfere with theiroperations?

MR VAN VUUREN: If we were to contact them in this regardand if Sefola was then to disappear they would have known it wasus who did it.

JUDGE WILSON: ... didn't want the Witbank Security Police
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to know that you had killed this man?

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, you wereasked by Mr Mpshe at a particular point with regard to paged 109and 110 of your document.  I am referring to the bottom paragraphon page 109 where you said it was necessary to eliminate activistsin order to protect information gained through the course of interrogation. You did respond to this or you did answer this.  Could you lookat the second paragraph on page 110.  Could you read that
  "If activists and terrorists were arrested after makinginformation available, the information routes of the freedom fightersand activists would have changed and the Security Police wouldnot have been able to use this information".
Is that in accordance with your answer?

MR VAN VUUREN: Indeed.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, you were asked with regardto  the fact that you gave additional explanations that were notspecifically referred to in your application.  May I refer topage 16 of your written application.  Could you read the paragraphon page 16 beginning "Additional information and testimony".

MR VAN VUUREN: "I attempted to make this applicationas
  comprehensive as possible.  Any additional information to thefacts herein contained will be given during testimony in frontof the Commission.  Aspects, as especially my motives and purposeswould have to be motivated more fully during my testimony.  Dueto time limitations linked to this application I will stand bythe content of this
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  application".

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, you have given testimonywith regard to the instructions which you, Mr Hechter and Mr Mamaselareceived in a general instruction to act as a counter revolutionaryeffort on the part of the government against the liberation movements. The instructions which you received from those that gave themto you were you forced to accept them, were you coerced to takethem?

MR VAN VUUREN: Yes, I had to obey these instructions.

MR DU PLESSIS: From who did your instructions normallycome?

MR VAN VUUREN: Normally directly from Captain Hechterand Captain, now Colonel Loots.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you believe that in carrying out theseinstructions would have been part of your task and duties?

MR VAN VUUREN: Indeed I believed so.

MR DU PLESSIS: If you had to carry out these instructionswhy then did you not carry out Basie Smit's instructions?

MR VAN VUUREN: I can only say this.  General Basie Smithad come over from a different unit to Security and we did nottrust him.  We entirely did not trust him.  The people from whomwe received instructions were normally persons whom we trustedand with whom we had worked for an extended period of time.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, was it the task of the SecurityPolice to attempt to transform terrorists into Askari's?  Wasthis the task of the Security Police?  Or at least was this yourtask of your unit?

MR VAN VUUREN: It was not the task of our unit.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was there such a unit?

MR VAN VUUREN: Indeed, the widely known Vlakplaas Unitwas
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responsible for this.

MR DU PLESSIS: During the course of interrogation bothSefola and Makope made the confession to you that Maake was amember of the cell.

MR VAN VUUREN: Indeed they did so.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to place one thingon record, perhaps for purposes of Mr Currin.  And that is thatin respect of the general motivation under the "politicalmotivations", the general motivation has been included inrespect of eliminations and in respect of bombings, as I haveindicated, in every incident.  And that is the reason why I don'tlead that specific evidence.  I say that for purposes of Mr Currin.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure he has understood that by now.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Van Vuuren, it was put to you by Mr Currinthat according to the mother Maake was a student.  And to a questionput to me earlier on you said that you did not know that he wasa student.

MR VAN VUUREN: No, I was not aware of the fact that heattended school.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Would that mean that you make use of somebody,if he was really your informer, you made use of somebody as aninformer without knowing what his occupation was?

MR VAN VUUREN: He might well have been registered at schoolbut while he was our informant he never attended school.  As faras we know it was impossible.  He was out of the country for threemonths.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: As an informer, would you not have goneinto his background to find out what is his occupation?  How canyou make somebody your informer without knowing what his
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occupation is.  Forget about whether or not he attended schoolregularly.  But surely you must know what the informer's occupationis, if he is your informant.

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct.  Generally speaking, themore militant activists did not work.  How can I explain thisto you.  We made no attempt to find out what work they did.  Weonly wanted to gain information from them.  We were interestedin information concerning the struggle, not about their work.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... without establishing his occupation,without knowing what his occupation is?

MR VAN VUUREN: Generally speaking the handler would haveknown what his occupation would have been.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (Question inaudible)

MR VAN VUUREN: No, Your Honour, I couldn't imagine thathe was going to school.   If I remember correctly. he told meand Captain Hechter that he was unemployed.   And that is whyhe decided to earn money.  We paid him a good salary and thatis why he decided to become an informant.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... try to go into his background?

MR VAN VUUREN: No, I did not investigate his background.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (Question inaudible)

MR VAN VUUREN: Yes, we would have known his address.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (Question inaudible)

MR VAN VUUREN: Never.