Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, just before the tea interval, according to my notes, when this Zwane and Gcubu came to his place during the night, he, after talking to them, referred them also to his brother's place down the way.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, that is as I had it.  COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOHN M SITHOLE: (s.u.o.)

MR CLAASSEN: (Cont)
	Mr Sithole, I would just like to ask, this evening that you've just described to the Committee, what happened.  When was this in relation to the shooting incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed with that.  Mr Sithole I just remind you that you're under your oath still.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.  It was before the incident of the shooting.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole was it the night before?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, the night before.

MR CLAASSEN: Could you please continue.  What happened then, after that?

MR SITHOLE: At about 3 a.m. after they had followed the first group to the shack where I directed them to, I heard this toyi toyi outside, up until around five in the morning,  since three in the morning.  At six I woke up, as I was waking up, it was just before Magwaza appeared and this toyi toyi was rife at the ground, and Magwaza got to me and said, Sithole, I am going to town.  I'm going to see if I can secure some busses that we will use to go to the meeting, because there was to be a meeting in KwaZulu Natal, or in Durban, where we would be meeting with chief, with the chief Mangosuthu.  And I said to him, there's something that we need to discuss here which was brought to my attention by the ANC people the previous day, and he said no, we'll attend to that after I come back because I have to secure some busses to transport us to Durban.  And indeed he left.  And we continued with the meeting, and we collected some money.  At about one, I suppose, it rained.  It was pouring, very heavy, and we had to disperse.  We went to our respective shacks.  I went to my shack, and the roof of my shack was destroyed as a result of the storm.
	I think it was towards, it was in the afternoon or at dusk, Zwane and Mpongosi came and approached me and said, the ANC has, is attacking us once again.  I asked him, or them rather, as to where they were, and they showed me that they are towards or by the shop somewhere.  I told them to go down and I'll be following them subsequently.  And I went back into the house to change the jacket since it was wet, and I was trying to clear the water from my shack since the water got in as a result of the roof being destroyed by the storm.  And after changing into another dry jacket.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Claassen could you ask him to speak a bit slowly because the simultaneous interpretation, we're not getting everything.  Thanks.  Sorry, you mentioned that you took off, or you went back into the house and you were preparing yourself to go and join the others.  What did you do when you got into the house?  Into your shack.

MR SITHOLE: I changed, and I put on a dry jacket.  And I heard a gunshot, twice in fact.  As I was going out of the shack, I saw the ANC people running towards me, and I closed the door.  I closed the door, I was inside quickly because I saw the ANC people approaching.  When they got to my shack they looked through the windows and they could not see a things because it was dark, and they passed.  And I got out immediately and wanted to rush to my brother's house where the other groups were, and they saw me.  In fact they emerged immediately because they were around the shack.  They came to me, they had in their possession spears and axe, and I tried to retreat, and I asked as to why they were killing me and I wanted to establish exactly the facts, and they did not listen or respond to what I was saying to them.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole you just now said that you wanted to enquire why they were killing you.  What exactly did they do?  What happened then?

MR SITHOLE: They came forward, they came to me, and again I shouted to say to them, wait until you tell me as to what is happening.  And one of them, Justin, said, wait, let's wait gentlemen, and let's hear what he has to say.  The stopped, and I utilised that moment to establish from them as to what was the point, and why they were behind me, and they said they don't know.  Then they said they did not know, these things happened.  These are shebeen matters. ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, sorry to interrupt you.  You're going on to some things you haven't told us about, so we don't understand how it fits in, about shebeens and things.  Could you maybe just explain your conversation with this man, and what it had to do with shebeens and so on, so that we can understand your evidence in its proper context.

MR SITHOLE: The word that they uttered to me in their response was that these are shebeen matters.  And I wanted to enquire further as to what happened at the shebeen.  They said they had no knowledge.  And I said to them, please go back to the office and enquire further as to what had happened.  If it, the blame, was with the IFP people, then I would collect them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sithole could you just explain.  You said, they said that this was shebeen matters.  Was this the reason that they gave why they attacked you?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that was the reason, although they later on refuted that and denied, and said in fact they did not know.

MR CLAASSEN: You also mentioned they should go back to the office to get the proper facts.  What office are you referring to?

MR SITHOLE: I was referring to their office.

MR CLAASSEN: Which office is this?

MR SITHOLE: That is an ANC office.

MR CLAASSEN: What happened then?

MR SITHOLE: Justin said yes, what Sithole is saying is a fact.  In fact we shall go and enquire from the office, and  indeed they went.  As they had left, I went back to change again now, the second time, and I went down to Magwaza to report to them that his had happened to me.  As I was changing in the house into dry clothes, I heard some noise at the ground.  And I heard another gunshot, and I fled, and I got to Magwaza's house.
	I found IFP group there, and Magwaza approached and said, Sithole here is a firearm.  And I said to him Magwaza I still want us to talk.  And Magwaza said, no there is no time to talk here, here the ANC is attacking.  It's time for us to put up an act here.  I took the firearm.  And I was adamant about the fact that we still have to talk to the ANC people before any action.  I still want us to talk to the ANC people and establish as to what was the problem, and I left them immediately, and after a few steps I saw them approaching very close, and I asked them, I raised up my right arm and said, are you still on the issue, the previous issue.  And they said to me, are you still saying a thing?  Then I heard this gunshot.  I was shot at and they stoned me at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: Who stoned you?

MR SITHOLE: The ANC people.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did the gunshot come from?

MR SITHOLE: From the ANC group.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole could you just carefully explain.  You indicated that you wanted to talk.  This was still, I believe, in Mr Magwaza's house, where you were with some other people.  Who left the house then, and what were you going to do?

MR SITHOLE: Please repeat the last part of your question.

MR CLAASSEN: With whom did you leave Mr Magwaza's house and what was your intention then?

MR SITHOLE: My intention was to go and find out from the ANC people if they were still on the previous matter what we were about before that time.  And I wanted also to establish further as to why we were being attacked by them and assaulted by them.

MR CLAASSEN: Where did you proceed to then, and at what stage did you see this ANC mob that you referred to?