Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR MAPOMA: And you did not order any person to go and kill people in Boipatong on that day, is that correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact, you were a member of the Youth Brigade of the IFP, whose duty it was to inform people about the policy of the IFP in the hostel, isn't that so?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact this action of killing people in Boipatong, was against the policy of the IFP?  That is your evidence, isn't it so?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, do you associate yourself with the actions that was made, that of killing people in Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

MR MAPOMA: Do you associate yourself with the act of killing people in Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I have already explained that I was one of those persons who had been angered by what the people of Tserela had been doing and I was also in favour of them being attacked because I did not understand why they were attacking us, because we were all fighting the same government, the apartheid government.
	It was the aim of all of us to dismantle the apartheid government, therefore we decided that they should be attacked, because we were no longer free to carry out our activities as an organisation.  We were now acting, we were now operating as a banned organisation.

MR MAPOMA: When you say you decided that they should be attacked, who do you refer to?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Myself as a leader, the people, the residents of the hostel were complaining about the situation.  As a leader you have a responsibility to look into people's complaints and take appropriate action.
	As a leader, I realised that we were losing our members because they were now intimidated.  I personally felt that the people of Tserela should be attacked.  I even told my colleagues that these people should be attacked.

MR MAPOMA: When you say you decided, when was that relating to the date on which this incident occurred?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: With regards to the date, I am not in a position to specify it.  My anger had been building up since the beginning of 1990 when the attacks began.

MR MAPOMA: Can you tell the Committee how many days before the actual attack, was that decision made?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want him to give us the specific date when he decided that the people of Boipatong must be attacked?

MR MAPOMA: Not necessarily the specific date Mr Chairperson, but I would like to know how many days before that attack took place, did they decide.  I am asking this question Chairperson, because I want to find out whether he was part of the decision making process at all, he himself, as a person.
	It is against that background that I am canvassing that point Chairperson, with respect.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot give you a specific date, I should explain that I discussed the matter with Mr Qunchu and suggested that they should be attacked.
	When the decision was taken to launch the attack on the 17th, I was not able to take part because of my ill health.
	If I had been part of the decision making process, they maybe could have postponed the date on my behalf, but they did not because I was not there when the decision to attack, was taken.

MR MAPOMA: In that meeting where you expressed your view that the attack be launched, where was Matwana Zulu?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Matwana was not present.  We were discussing this as leaders.  It was a caucus of IFP leaders, but Matwana was not present.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, just one aspect that you didn't answer.  You were asked can you tell us approximately when that happened, that meeting where the decision, or your discussion, the caucus where you made the decision, you were asked approximately when that happened?  We don't want the exact date, if you can say was it a few days, a week, two weeks, etc, it would be helpful.
	We are not talking about the meeting now, we are talking what you referred to as a caucus.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It was about two or three weeks before the attack was launched.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, and who were members of that caucus, who were present in that caucus meeting?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was with Mr Damara, Mr Khumalo who was the then Chairperson of the IFP, as well as Mr Mkhize, who was the Induna at the time.
	Those were the people I discussed with.  It was not easy to discuss this with everyone, every member of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I see that the time is about five to eleven.  Do you want to start now, or would you prefer to start after tea?

MR BERGER: I can start after tea, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  We will raise and return at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger, you may proceed.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: (still under oath)

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Buthelezi, as I understand your evidence this morning, you became aware of a pending attack on Boipatong, some two or three weeks before the attack actually took place, is that correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: In my evidence I mentioned that I also felt that  the people of Boipatong should be attacked, but not that I knew of the decision two or three weeks before.

CHAIRPERSON: What Counsel is asking you is that in your evidence, you told us that approximately two weeks before the attack on Boipatong, you were aware that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong.  Is that the question?

MR BERGER: That is the question yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did say so.

MR BERGER: You were asked the same question at page 50, paragraph 6.  You were asked please give particulars of how and when you first came to know of a pending attack to be launched by the residents of kwaMadala.  Do you remember that question?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: And your answer at page 54, paragraph 6 is, I knew nothing.  Do you see that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Please repeat that, I don't think I understood you correctly.

MR BERGER: You were asked a question by the TRC before you came to give evidence.  You were asked to give details about how and when you first came to know about a pending attack that was to be launched on Boipatong, and the answer which you gave at that time, was that you knew nothing.
	Today you have come to this Committee and you have told this Committee that approximately two weeks before the attack on Boipatong, you knew that there was going to be an attack, that an attack was pending.   How do you reconcile what you said to this Committee today, with your answers that I have just read to you?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I would like to explain about this statement.  Firstly, I was not aware of the process of the TRC.  I later found out that you have to divulge the entire truth.
	That is why at that time, I may not have supplied all the information that was relevant to the case, because I did not know what the process of the TRC was.

MR BERGER: No Mr Buthelezi, not only did you not supply all the information, but you actually told a lie.   Were you not aware of the fact that you had to tell the TRC the truth, you thought you could lie, is that what you are saying?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I have explained, I did not have information on the TRC.  I learnt when I came here, that you have to tell the whole truth.  Such information I did not have when I actually wrote that statement.
	I do accept and admit that what was written in the statement, was not true.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you understand the TRC to be functioning at the time when you gave this information?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Because of the lack of information, I thought that I would not be in a position to divulge the entire truth.