Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay.  Obviously academically he should at least have a Standard 10 and he should be physically fit.  He should undergo fitness tests and he should be good in languages, be able to communicate in Afrikaans, English and in other black languages, and he should be a person who is dedicated to his work.  He should be a person who has high discipline and his wife too should be a person who is prepared to sacrifice time that this man can spend outside his house or his home.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you General.  What about security clearance?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay.  Security clearance firstly is number one priority.  But that is also done with the Security Branch itself and not by uniform branch, and no policeman can join the police force without having got this clearance.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was there any investigation done into a person's, or let's call it an applicant, for the Security Branch political views and attitudes?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No.  I think most of the members of the Security Branch were identified by those people responsible for the training.  Maybe I could say two-thirds of the Security Branch of the then Venda National Force was selected by the South African Police, Security Branch.  The training was also conducted by them.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes that is not exactly answering my question.  I want to know if there was any kind of political screening before a person could join the Security Branch?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Not that I know of.  But I know of security screening that is done, not political screening, because we believe in that the police serve the government of the day.  The government of the day is served by the police.  Whether the police force is 100 years old or what, the new government comes to power within two days is then served by that police force.  So there was no political screening.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you wouldn't know Mr Ramushwana you were not involved in the screening of - you merely are speculating.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: But I would know Mr Chair, because I was the Deputy Chief of Security and then political screening would obviously have to be charged to me because I was doing the investigating.  The Chief of Security did not do the investigating, the Commissioner did not do it.  But at the same time we didn't have a watchdog looking at how the, what the police thought about the government.  That's why I said there was no political screening.

CHAIRPERSON: But wouldn't - I don't actually know what political screening is.  If you are screening somebody for security, security screening, wouldn't you look at the person's political affiliations, which way he thinks, which way he votes?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: But it's not that easy to get that information.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but I mean wouldn't it be included in that?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Or do you, or was there such a thing as a political screening as opposed to a security screening?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I have never dealt with those you know, type of things.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But haven't you just said you were responsible for that?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I was responsible for the screening of the Security Branch, not political, not screening politically.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  Now the security clearance that you were involved in, did it not entail having to look at somebody's political involvement or affiliation or such other related matters?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No, no, no, I would have said that I really I don't know even that form, I think it's, I don't know if it is available now, I would actually produces it and you look at it, it doesn't have those requirements.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, let's proceed Mr van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	So you were actually only looking for a person before you let him or appoint him to the Security Branch for a very dedicated policeman who is doing his job better than most others.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg.  Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

MS MTANGA: Yes I do Mr Chairperson, thank you.  Mr Ramushwana, I would like to know if did you know any of the victims mentioned paragraph 15?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Personally?

MS MTANGA: Personally.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No.

MS MTANGA: Did you know of ...

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: ...excuse me, I think the person I knew personally was, because I used to meet him at the Venda Sun, is Bengeni John Ravele, and I understand he has passed away.

MS MTANGA: Did you know of the church involvement before the bombing?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay I knew the Reverend Alfred Mahamba. I knew Dean Farisani. I knew Raman Chikororo; I knew Chifewa Mahumela, and I knew but Phinias ...(indistinct) Posiwa I didn't know.

MS MTANGA: So you are saying you knew Mr, Reverend Mahamba personally?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Not personally, just to know him ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: That he was involved in the church - that's Mr Mahamba. Mr Poswana?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I didn't know him.

MS MTANGA: You knew Mr Farisani.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela and Mr Ravele you also knew.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: When did you first become aware of their political activities?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I knew Dean Farisani from years back, in the 70's when I was still in the Security Branch at Messina.

MS MTANGA: What exactly did you know about him then?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I just know that he was active in these organisations, political organisations.

MS MTANGA: At the time they were arrested for their attack on the police station, what information did you have that linked them to that attack?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay, he was not arrested by me, but at the time the information was that he was, he had actual ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: Excuse Mr Ramushwana, I am referring to all of them.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: All of them?

MS MTANGA: Yes. What information did you have on each one of them?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay, at that Reverend Mahamba was visited by two armed men, that Posiwa was responsible for, he was in the van that took those three men to go and attack the police station and then Petros Poswana was also one of them.  About Farisani I didn't know anything.  About Chikororo he was involved in conveying these people from the place attack to their final destination, or hide-out.  And then Chifewa Mahumela I don't know, except that he was used, he was apparently used as a recce to go and look at the place before the attacking team came.  And then Bengeni John Ravele I only know that he conveyed these people from Venda, out of Venda.  And then that he was also found in possession of an AK47 or any other type of firearm.

MS MTANGA: When you say regarding Dr Farisani you knew of no link to this matter, does it mean you can't recall the link to this, to the bombing or at the time you arrested him you had no information linking him to this bombing at the police station?