Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

LC KAMANA: He is lying, I didn't even get out of the car that day, there were five of us with two cars.  I was with Inspector Nayia who was a Sergeant at the time.  I didn't get out of the car, they got out and they went in, they knocked and somebody opened the door, it was not him who opened the door and they came back with him.  I didn't even get out of the car.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The Policemen you were together with, were they carrying firearms?

LC KAMANA: I wouldn't be sure, but I had my firearm with me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What would you say to the evidence that a person would say, would make allegations, a Policeman would make allegations about an Officer in the hall and after that, it would be announced that that Officer must be fetched, what would you say to that evidence?

LC KAMANA: Can you please repeat your question?

MR NOMPOZOLO: What would you say to the evidence that a Policeman would say a certain Officer has misappropriated funds and it would be announced there and then that that Officer should be fetched, what would you say to that evidence?  Is it what actually happened?

LC KAMANA: I don't know because as I have already said I was in and out within any car and then when I was at the College, I was guarding at the parameter because the soldiers, the South African Defence Force, it was said that they would be there any time, so I was guarding, I was not inside the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that only the implicated Officers on the misappropriation of funds were fetched?

LC KAMANA: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: How do you know who was implicated and who was not implicated on the embezzlement of funds?

LC KAMANA: I was not investigating those cases, so I wouldn't know the people who were implicated or who were not implicated.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, then how can you say no, it was not the implicated ones who were fetched, if you did not know?

LC KAMANA: It is because I went to Brigadier Suys, I did not know whether he was implicated or not, I went to Mr (indistinct) and I didn't get them, so I was only fetching the Police that was supposed to be fetched, I was not looking at the allegations against him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Did you fetch, did you take with you the wife of Suys and the child?

LC KAMANA: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Why didn't you take her?

LC KAMANA: We were looking for Brigadier Suys, we were told to go and fetch all the Police that were outside.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, are you aware, were you part of the group which fetched General Nqoya?

LC KAMANA: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What did you mean on your application by saying that you want amnesty for holding hostage?

LC KAMANA: I was trying to say a person maybe who was there who wanted to leave, but because of our actions, was not able to leave that hall, I am asking for forgiveness for, but it was not only the Officers, it was also the people who wanted to leave, who left small children at home, so they were not allowed to leave, so I was saying that in that sense.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.   Let's talk about you, did you yourself prevent anyone from leaving?

LC KAMANA: No, I even wanted to go home, but because of the situation, nobody was allowed to go home.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you yourself hold anyone hostage?

LC KAMANA: Indirectly I can say yes, because I also supported the fact that people were not allowed to leave.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But you were outside guarding that South African Defence Force should not come, not so?

LC KAMANA: We were guarding the soldiers and we were also guarding people not to leave that area, so there was no one who was able to come in and no one was able to go out.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What did you say was the purpose of fetching all the Policemen?

LC KAMANA: We wanted to be united, to say one word that Brigadier Gqozo should leave his office.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Even against other persons' will?

LC KAMANA: Those were the risks that we took when we wanted freedom.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Am I correct to say that you only applied for amnesty after you had been convicted of mutiny?

LC KAMANA: No, I was not even charged with mutiny.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But you are aware that there was a civil case against you and other Policemen by Tolman Sawuti, is that correct?  Against you, the Minister and other Policemen?

LC KAMANA: Yes, I am aware of that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And before that, you did not apply for amnesty, is that correct?

LC KAMANA: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it also correct that there was a judgement against you and the Minister for an amount of R40 000 by Mr Sawuti?

LC KAMANA: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And after you have learnt about that judgement, that is when you decided to apply for amnesty for fetching Mr Sawuti?  Is that correct?

LC KAMANA: No, what made me to come forward, make application for amnesty, first of all I did not know what we did, was wrong, I did not know that there were people that were against the change, so I found out that there were people who were hurt, who didn't like what we did, so I decided to come forward and make this application.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Otherwise you were prepared to pay the money which he has sued you for?

LC KAMANA: R40 000?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

LC KAMANA: I don't have that kind of money, I don't have R40 000.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I put it to you that the evidence which has been led from Mfene an also from Nkwenkwe is to the effect that the Officers were first so that Gqozo can be isolated, secondly that the Officers were actually asked in the hall about their involvement on the corruption.  What are you saying to that?

LC KAMANA: There were a lot of things that were happening with Police, Police were not satisfied with the working conditions, so some of the issues came up on that particular day, but the main reason or the main objective was the removal of Brigadier Gqozo.  We had to take the people who were close to him, so that he can be exposed because he was using the Officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What do you mean by saying we had to take the people who were close to him, what does that mean?

LC KAMANA: For example, let me make an example I was staying at Chachu, I was staying with people who didn't like Brigadier Gqozo, so those people when they were toyi-toying, I was sent to those people to stop those people from doing that.  I was being sent by an Officer who got instructions from Brigadier Gqozo, sitting in his office.  After doing that, I was supposed to go back to that community and live with that people, so I was living that kind of life, so in order for me to stay with the people in peace, Gqozo had to be removed from his position because he was not liked by the people.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, but what do you mean that we had to take people who were close to him?  What do you mean by that?

LC KAMANA: I think I have explained that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I am not satisfied with the explanation.  Does that mean that you had to deal with the people who were close to Gqozo by taking them hostage?

LC KAMANA: I am trying to say the chain of command at the Police, it is the Commissioner and the Officers, the Colonels and Major under him and the Captains and Lieutenants and Adjutants, Constable and Sergeants.  When you are in the field, it was the Adjutant who was responsible for those who were on the ground and he would get instructions from the senior people and Brigadier Gqozo was the main person who was giving out such instructions.  In order for Brigadier Gqozo not to deal with the people on the ground, we wanted them to be with us, so that Gqozo could not be able to send people.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, but what do you mean by we had to take the people who were closer to him?  What is this taking, can you explain that?

LC KAMANA: What I am trying to say is that all the Police were supposed to be at the College, senior Police and all of them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, why were they to be taken?