Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not protecting anyone, not the ANC or anybody else, but I maintain that I do not know anything about what you are saying.  I was not an ANC member.  You would get better clarification from an ANC member.

MR LOWIES: We're talking about you, Sir.  You on your own version are not happy with the IFP leadership, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's what I said.

MR LOWIES: And yet you say you are a member of the IFP, still today, here.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, I did say so even yesterday, that I'm still a member of the IFP.

MR LOWIES: My instructions are, and I have to put this to you because it's my instructions, you were planted in this application, you are not a bona fide applicant.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not know anything about that.  I am seeking amnesty for the incident that I was involved in. I do not understand if you say I was planted, by whom?

MR LOWIES: Well it appears to me that two things happened in this statement, and that is that you deny anything which is detrimental to the ANC, and it may have been them.  I'm asking you ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have not been planted by the ANC.  They would also be surprised to hear their name being mentioned here.  I have come to the TRC to seek amnesty for those acts that I was involved in.

MR LOWIES: Similarly, is it not so Sir that the AWB, perhaps rightly so, is not very popular as an organisation with black people, in general, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want seriously this witness to express an opinion as to what the attitude of black people generally is?

MR LOWIES: I would submit it's relevant to the cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: But how can - has this man ever taken a ...(indistinct) with the attitude of black people is towards the AWB?

MR LOWIES: I'll rephrase the question.

MR LAX: Just before you do, you will of course recall that it's historical fact that the IFP and the AWB at certain points had a co-operation, as part of an alliance prior to the previous election?

MR LOWIES: I am apolitical, I have no idea, but if you say so, it could be.
	The reason why I want to put this to you, Sir, is ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Ask the question.

MR LOWIES: The mention that you made of the AWB in your application, was to discredit the IFP.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I mentioned before that I do not know anything about the AWB.  You questioned me on whether the AWB brought groceries to the hostel and I responded that there were white people who brought food and I do not know whether they were AWB or not.  Please go onto another question.

MR LOWIES: And your discrediting of the IFP goes further in your application, you are trying to tarnish the image of the President of the IFP, in this very application, in that you say he congratulated people in public for the Boipatong massacre, which is a lie.

MS TANZER: If I may, it was the evidence of one of the co-applicants in fact that there was a meeting at Ulundi and he was put on the stage and he was congratulated.  So that was in evidence previously by one of the co-applicants.

MR LOWIES: No.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no evidence that he was congratulated, he was taken to Ulundi.

MS TANZER: And put on the stage.

CHAIRPERSON: But was he congratulated, was that the evidence?

MS TANZER: That was the evidence, that he shook his hand.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no such evidence, Ma'am.

MS TANZER: I withdraw that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Could you answer the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with what is put to you or do you disagree?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please explain it to me.

MR LOWIES: I say you are trying to discredit the President of the IFP, by stating that he publicly congratulated members of his party for the Boipatong massacre.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I'm not trying to discredit Mr Buthelezi, I am stating what he said at Ulundi.  You are trying to protect him.  It is not the first time that he denies knowledge of events, he does this regularly.  I do not understand what you mean when you say I'm trying to discredit him.  Where do you get that?

MR LOWIES: Sir, if we're talking about a person denying aspects, then we're talking about you and I've already indicated to you during my course of cross-examination, that you are denying certain aspects in your own statement.  So you are the one who is telling the lies.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, I don't believe ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I'm not telling lies.

CHAIRPERSON: ... to get into the argument with the witness.  You've made the point, let's go onto the next point.

MR LOWIES: And I would like to put it to you, Sir, that we are in the process of obtaining a statement from a person in the IFP, who will the version that you have given to us regarding what happened at Ulundi.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You can go ahead and do that, but I know what I am talking about, I'm not imagining things.

MR LOWIES: Chair, is this an appropriate time to take the tea adjournment?

MR LAX: Just before you do, Mr Lowies, I've just thought about what I've said earlier and I'm actually wrong, the alliance did not include the AWB at all, it included the Conservative Party and other parties, it definitely wasn't the AWB.  I withdraw that statement, I'm absolutely wrong on that.

MR LOWIES: I would not be able to dispute it, I have no knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: We will rise, we'll come back at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, would you place on record what you mentioned to me outside?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Chairman, it has come to my notice that emotions are running high between the applicants and the victims.  I have been approached by one of the briefers for the victims, he advised me that he has been approached by Prince Vanana Zulu, from the section of the applicants, where they are complaining that there have been abusive remarks coming from the side of the victims and they want some intervention from the Committee.  That is the situation, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Representative for the applicants, do you have any instructions in this regard?

MR STRYDOM: I heard yesterday that there were abusive remarks, but I did not take it seriously, I said to my guys they must just ignore it, Chair, and I thought the matter was over.  What happened now, I am totally uninformed about.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  On the side of the victims, do you have any instructions?

MS CAMBANIS: Yes, thank you, Chair.  I was present with Mr Mapoma when these remarks, when the allegations were made and we have undertaken to the Evidence Leader, to speak to our clients during the lunch break, to intervene, to sort out.  Apparently there's a misunderstanding, but we have undertaken to deal with it during the lunch break.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we know whether these remarks were made inside or outside of this hearing room?

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately, Chairperson, I am not in a position to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, would you discuss the matter with the senior police officer present at these hearings and ask that police officer to investigate these allegations and thereafter to provide the Committee with a report?  It is in the interest of both the applicants and the victims, that these hearings proceed to finality.
	I regard it as a very grave and serious matter if there are allegations of abuse against anyone.  So I urge everyone to refrain from such conduct.  May I also urge the legal representatives to raise these issues with their respective clients, so that we do not have a repeat of this.
	Mr Nosenga, you're still under oath.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lowies?