Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR NYOKA: And how would you describe your relations with Mr du Plessis at the time?  Were you comrades, if you can pardon me using that term, were you comradely in your relations?  Or let me put it in a manner that you will understand, were you friendly?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No there were no bad feelings between me and Mr du Plessis.

MR NYOKA: What puzzles me is why is it that when a big fish is caught you are not told the very first time that he was arrested at Bloemfontein or at worst during the early days at Humansdorp by your comrade or friend, why are you not told that we have arrested a big fish, we are going to make a breakthrough?  There are many possibilities.  Even the possible elimination of Chris Hani because he was close to him, why were you not told by your friend?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can't say at which stage Mr du Plessis had told me about this.  He did tell me, I knew at a certain stage he told me that they were going to East London or Transkei, he was going to point out certain things, but you know Mr du Plessis and his colleagues were very busy.  I was involved in my tasks.  It was not a case that we sat there discussing things all day long.  Yes from time to time he did convey certain information to me but I did not visit him every day or every few hours to ask him what was going on, what was happening, it does not work like that.  You are involved with your own task, you are inquisitive but you expect that the person will inform you in his own good time.

MR NYOKA: Do you agree with me that you could easily have walked out of this because the people that mattered were Mr du Plessis and Mr Erasmus, you were never involved in the Kondile matter, you could easily have opted for the easy or Christian option of, with throwing and not being involved in the actual killing, but just referring Mr du Plessis to Mr Erasmus and then remove yourself, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: Why did you not do that, as a Christian?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well if you mentioned it now and with reference to the circumstances we have today this is what I should have done.  But I have already told you that Mr du Plessis trusted me, he trusted me in discussing this with me.  We discussed it with Erasmus and I did not want to break this trust.

JUDGE PILLAY: But Mr van Rensburg if I listen to your evidence Mr Erasmus instructed you to be in charge of the whole operation, as from the minute you made the decision?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

JUDGE PILLAY: As I understand it, Mr Erasmus did not agree to leave Mr du Plessis in charge of this operation.  He rather wanted to put you in command of the operation.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's true.

JUDGE PILLAY: Why did you then say that Mr du Plessis had told you in the light of the fact that you are in control of this, why did you say that was the correct position?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: What do you mean Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

MR DE JAGER: Why did you not verify the situation?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I did not do that.  I can't say why not.  I just accepted that what Mr du Plessis had said Mr Erasmus gave me an instruction that ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: There is a suggestion that at a certain stage that Mr Kondile sustained brain damage, I don't know whether it's true or not, but is it not possible that that was the reason why you could not talk to him?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No Mr Chairman.  No I talked to him, yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Thank you.

MR NYOKA: You heard Mr du Plessis describing Mr Kondile as a very intelligent person?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I did.

MR NYOKA: Would an intelligent person not ask on the way to Komatipoort, gentlemen what has happened to the co-operation agreement between you and me, me and you, because now I am being handcuffed, I am being taken to a strange place, I am having a balaclava on my face and no one is saying anything.  If that is correct why would he not say that if he was intelligent?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I don't know.  When Mr du Plessis and Mr Raath picked him up from Jeffrey's Bay what Mr du Plessis or he and Mr Raath had told me Kondile.  They picked me up on their way at Port Elizabeth.  I suspect I probably asked Mr du Plessis is this person calm, is he satisfied, and Mr du Plessis could have told me, yes I shouldn't worry about that, this is what I think happened.  But during our journey to Komatipoort I had the impression that this person did not suspect anything.

MR NYOKA: You were born on the 23rd of July 1940, and during that crucial week of the Kondile dilemma you were celebrating your birthday, the 23rd of July 1981, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes if you put it like that, yes.

MR NYOKA: You must have felt very badly when you had to do something contrary to the spirit of celebrating birth by considering death, not so?  It must have felt very badly.  Here you are celebrating your birthday but you still you are considering death for the first time, your first operation, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't know whether at that stage we've already decided by the 23rd of July, I can't say whether we've already decided then.  I've previously said yes at that stage I believed that I had to assist them.  We had to bring this political dilemma under control, I had to assist them in doing that in solving the problem.  About when, I can't remember the precise date when we made this decision, but yes, if I think back, it's all a big pity now.

MR NYOKA: Ja, in closing I just want to say whilst you felt badly during that period you will feel badly for the rest of your life.  Thank you.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: My attention has been drawn that I am required to adjourn for a very short while.  Some message is being conveyed to me, so we will adjourn for just a very short while.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR JANSEN: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I trust it won't be the ground that we've already covered with the last witness?

MR JANSEN: Well Mr Chairman I would certainly wish to not to repeat too many things which I think is in the nature of merely stating my clients version which is a matter of very clear record, I accept that, but unfortunately I am told during adjournments by my learned friends that they will be holding - or more specifically my learned friend Mr Visser, that he is going to be holding me very closely to what I put and whether I do not put certain material portions to his witnesses.  Now I think that is inappropriate for this forum, but I just want to explain ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You have the assurance that that is improper for this forum, but do carry on.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr van Rensburg, just a bit of background.  You were station commander at Ermelo from 1974 to 1980, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that's correct.

MR JANSEN: And you will also agree whilst from 1974 to 1977, for a period of three years, you were station commander at Oshoek, that's a border post.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I accept that.

MR JANSEN: And Mr Coetzee's access to the security police was as station commander at Oshoek, that was the first time you started co-operating with security police?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that's correct.