Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-30

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, I want you to turn to page 21 of the bundle 2 Mr Chairman, members of the Committee.
	You were given a letter by the TRC office asking you certain questions and one of your questions was as to whether you an authority or given an order to do what you did and your answer on page 21, number 9 - I'm going to read it to you, reads as follows:
"Yes I was given an order but to defend, not to attack the deceased"
Do you see that?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Yes, I can see it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you understand what you have written there?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Yes, I understand.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I then be correct to state that in as far as the killing of the deceased was concerned there was no order, according to information furnished to this Committee?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: The killing of the deceased was not an order but as I've explained before, the manner in which they approached - I got very emotional and I found myself taking an action that I took.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Correct that is admitted, I accept that which means then you acted without an order in this regard - we'll leave it at that.  Now, before the stabbing could take place, was there any argument between yourself and the deceased - vocal argument?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: No, there was no argument, he arrived and he asked us where the rest of the comrades were and they started firing with the bottles that they had.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, I'll still refer members of the Committee and yourself to page 21 number 5 thereof, this was your response the a request for further particulars by the TRC and I'll read your answer number 5, it reads
"Yes, the argument was my political organisation"
What did you mean thereby?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: By this I meant that everywhere we met they fought us because my organisation was not satisfied with what they were doing to the community, the community of Maukeng.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, where is the request to which you are responding to for further particulars?

ADV DE JAGER: Page 59.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Advocate de Jager, page 59.  I will refer for clarity's sake once more to page 59 and the question was: "Your answer in question 6 emanates from the question from us on number 5" and I will read it, it reads
"On the day he was killed, did you have an argument or a fight with him and if yes, what was the argument about"?
Then you responded as follows on number 5 on page 21, do you see that?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Can you please repeat your question Sir?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: All right, I'll read on page 59 first to help you, number 5
"On the day he was killed, did you have an argument/fight with him and if yes, what was the argument about"?
Your answer thereto which is on number 5 on page 21, reads:
"Yes, our argument was my political organisation"
Do you see that?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Yes, I can see this.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do I understand you then to have responded in this way that the question was clear to you, they wanted - it wanted to know whether on that day when you killed him, was there an argument between the two of you, did you understand it like that - not prior to the incident?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: There was no argument Sir because I did not even talk to him, he talked to me instead.  He was asking me about the whereabouts of my other comrades and he fired the bottles at me, an argument never ensued.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So, your answer on page 21 number 5, is incorrect to the Committee?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: By stabbing the deceased 15 times and causing his death, what is it really that you wanted to achieve?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I wanted to achieve peace for the community of Maukeng.  At least today I realised that we achieved what we wanted which is peace, the peace that is reigning in Maukeng presently.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At the time of this incident, for how long had you been a member of the ANC Youth League?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: It was about two to three years.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And the SDU's?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: About two years.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: During your membership in both organisations, have you never heard of the word negotiations between parties or members fighting?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Can you please repeat your question Sir?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: During your membership in both organisations, have you never heard of the word negotiations?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I heard of that word.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was negotiations not one of the means whereby peace could be achieved other than by killing?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Negotiations was one of the methods to achieve peace, I do understand the question of negotiations but the Three Million gang was not in favour of negotiations at all, the didn't want to hear anything relating to peace.  We tried many a times to negotiate with them but they were not understanding.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you can still remember Mr Monyake, can you mention one or two of the many a times where you tried - when and how, what was done?

CHAIRPERSON: Was he not a junior person, who was not given an official or anything?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, I agree he was non-official member of the organisation but if he says it was tried at negotiations, then it means he has knowledge thereof of what was done.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry I thought you had asked him what he had done.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, Mr Chairman, I was saying: "Can you tell us what was done and when was it done", thank you Chair.

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I do not remember the day and the month but it was in 1992, it was on a Sunday.  We met the Three Million and we tried to bring about peace between ourselves and the next day they attacked us.  There was a small child thirteen years of age and this child was crippled, they killed that child next to an open field.  This took place when we talked with them the previous day about peace.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who was the then leader of the Three Million gang in Maukeng?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: It was Gwete George Ramasemong.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Monyake, you have been asked whether there was no argument between yourselves, Pappie and the deceased whilst you were at the tavern and your response was that there wasn't.  Now, when the deceased asked you where the rest of your comrades were, did you not respond to his question?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I could not provide an answer because even before I could answer, he was already firing the bottles and I was scared - I thought there were many of them, it was before I could realise that there were only two.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, on page 21 at paragraph 7 ...
"Were you alone or was there someone with you when Tefo Molele was killed"?
And your response was that you were with comrade Pappie because on the day of that specific day's crime he was there to help you with the other members of the Three Million gang to be dispensed.  I have not been able to understand your response to that question and I would request you to clarify.  I don't know whether it would a correct interpretation of what is contained under number 7, whether you are saying it was your intention that they in any event to attack members of the Three Million Gang.  Are you able to assist us?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Our intention was not to attack the Three Million gang, comrade Pappie who was with me on that day is the person who helped me to chase away the other member of the Three Million gang who was in the company of the deceased.  He's the person who actually helped me to disperse them, I'd not know where did they end.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So it wasn't your intention to attack members of the Three Million gang with a view of trying to destabilise the force they had the Maukeng community members - you seem to responded to a defensive situation?