Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-26

MR KAHANOVITZ: ...(indistinct) question in relation to the printing press.  Sitting here today, can you specifically remember that Verster approved it?

WOUTER J BASSON: I can also not recall that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now there's a diary entry of yours on the 9th of May concerning a project involving a Mr von Finkelstein that was allocated to Staal Burger, what happened to that project?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, 9th of May?  Where about is it?  Mine says
"Aarts, Marius, Christo vandag, voorstudie ...(indistinct) konferensie more."
I don't see any Mr Finkelstein.

WOUTER J BASSON: It is at the very bottom of the page.  I didn't  know how one spelt it either, that's why I wrote it like that.
	Chairperson, nothing came of that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why?

WOUTER J BASSON: I cannot recall specifically what the reason is, I cannot even link the person to anything.  His name doesn't signify anything to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now the reference to Deon we know is a reference to Calla Botha, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We know that he was allocated a project concerning Bruce White, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who is number 2?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I think someone has asked me this question before, I cannot recall specifically what the reason is for that 2.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You agree with me we can infer from the context that 2 is a target?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, it may also be that it actually means options in Region 2.  One cannot necessarily refer to it as an indication of a specific person as a target.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were you considering using Mr Botha's services in connection with Region 2?

WOUTER J BASSON: I cannot say that, I'm trying to clarify it for myself that it could be possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do I infer then that the reference at the top means that Van Zyl will be working on Omar and SWAPO, in general?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Returning to the Omar project and the evidence earlier about having to resubmit projects to the Chairman - I'm not going to ask that question.
	On the question of what happened to the money that was allocated to be paid to Mr Hardien in relation to the Early Learning Centre, you've heard the evidence, Mr van Zyl says that Mr Burger stole money, Mr Burger on the other hand accuses Mr van Zyl of having stolen money.  What's your version?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I cannot speak on behalf of the two members because I was not physically present with the exchange of money between Mr Burger and Mr van Zyl.  I cannot express an opinion on that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well I assume as the Co-ordinator and the person responsible for finances, would it be correct to say that your understanding was that that R30 000 was supposed to be paid to the person who had placed the bomb?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And that Mr Burger was supposed to give the money to Mr van Zyl, who was supposed to give the money to the person who'd placed the bomb?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if either Mr Burger or Mr van Zyl took any of that money, they would have been stealing money from the CCB?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What work does Joe Verster do now?

WOUTER J BASSON: I would like to know myself, I don't know Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you said that the Goldstone Commission had falsely implicated you and Staal Burger in third force activities, would you care to expand?

WOUTER J BASSON: In my application at the DCC my role was to handle agents, agents who were already recruited who had absolutely nothing to do with third force activities, it was the collection of intelligence in general within the objectives of DCC, and nowhere was there any third force activities of me and Mr Burger.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you saying that Judge Goldstone made a finding that you were involved in third force activities?

WOUTER J BASSON: If he made a finding in which he implies that I was involved in such activities, then it is a mistake.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I'm asking you if he made such a finding.

MR LAX: Just repeat the question, I couldn't hear properly.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm asking whether Judge Goldstone made a finding that implicated you, Mr Basson, in third force activities.

WOUTER J BASSON: You are asking me whether he made a finding?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.  You say the Goldstone Commission falsely implicated you in third force activities, I'm trying to work out what, are you referring to a document that was produced, a report, what are you referring to?

WOUTER J BASSON: I think it was a report which was issued.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you read that report?

WOUTER J BASSON: I think it was something that I read in the press at that stage.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was your name mentioned?

WOUTER J BASSON: Not specifically, however it was mentioned that certain CCB members were then working at DCC and in that light we were fired promptly but unfairly, seeing as the allegations were not correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The impression I got from your evidence was that on some or other day you and Mr Burger get called in and you're told "Gentlemen, you no longer have a job with the DCC, because the Goldstone Commission has implicated you in third force activities", is that your evidence?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So your Commanding Officer told you that?

WOUTER J BASSON: My Commanding Officer was also part of the allegations.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who called you in and told you this?

WOUTER J BASSON: It was a General who was attached to Military Intelligence.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, let's just leave it at that, but you never said "Excuse me, can we see the document that implicates us"?

WOUTER J BASSON: The fact of the matter was that I think Mr de Klerk had the document before him and he said that they had to get rid of all these people.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you never got an opportunity to see the document that implicated you?

WOUTER J BASSON: It wasn't necessary to ask because if the leader of the country says you must go, then you go.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question is simple, did you yourself see the document in which you were implicated?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I never saw a document.

MR KAHANOVITZ: See I got the impression from your evidence that you were suggesting that in some way Judge Goldstone had falsely implicated you in third force activities, is that the wrong impression?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, what I say is that there was a task group, I think it was under Judge Goldstone, by the name of Pierre Steyn who led the investigation and they seized the offices of DCC along with all the files, and as a result of that action and the recommendation which Steyn must have made to Judge Goldstone, the results were made known.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I understand your evidence now.  Now you said in your evidence-in-chief, and I'm not sure if this was a mistake, but you said that the CCB had purchased a gun for Ferdie Barnard.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, it was Calla Botha.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see I was asking ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Calla Botha bought a gun for Ferdie Barnard, or CCB bought a gun for Calla Botha?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, I think that Mr Kahanovitz is referring to an inscription in the diary
"Weapon for Deon"
Deon who is Calla Botha, and I testified that Calla Botha at that stage did not have a personal hand gun and he asked whether the organisation would be able to provide him with a weapon.  I cannot recall what happened after that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can I just short circuit this, your evidence at page 2180 of the record, I was asking about that entry and your answer was
"Mr Barnard and Mr Botha came to me and asked me whether there was any possibility that the organisation could help them to obtain a side arm."

WOUTER J BASSON: It is a mistake, let me just get to it.  What is the page number?

MR KAHANOVITZ: 2180.