Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: And furthermore you were the commanding officer of the C-Division of Headquarters till 1989 when  Mr Coetzee Mr Coetzee made all these reservations and the Harms Commission followed.  You were central in the planning of the police's strategy under which denials would be made, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is not correct.

MR JANSEN: Were there ever any meetings where the people got together and where they were told which version they had to give?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not that I know of.

MR JANSEN: One should then accept that the version provided by the other policeman was just by coincidence, although they were versions they had discussed when you were not involved in the planning thereof.

MR JANSEN: I don't know what you are saying.  I don't understand the statement you are making.  What I can tell you is when Mr Coetzee and Nofomela, how can I put it, all these confessions basically amounted to the fact that people who were mentioned by them were told that there would be legal representation for them and those people had to arrange their own legal representatives had to do it by themselves and the allegations against people should be discussed with his legal advisor whether it is like that or not and then make their necessary submission.  That's what happened there.

MR JANSEN: So you were not part or heading some or other orchestrated attempt to mislead?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR JANSEN: In other words people placed that on record are lying.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: ...(indistinct)

MR JANSEN: Good.  Now when you decided to make use of Mr Coetzee's services for the purposes of Mr Kondile's murder, would it not have been correct protocol for you or Mr Erasmus to contact Brigadier Schoon, Mr Coetzee's commanding officer, to contact him.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, Mr Erasmus gave me an instruction and I accepted that if he wanted or had to clear it with Brigadier Schoon he would have done that.

MR JANSEN: You certainly did not think it was necessary because you accepted that Coetzee would clear it out with Schoon if he thought it necessary?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that's what I thought.

MR JANSEN: You know Mr Coetzee's version in that regard, namely that Brigadier Schoon told him to meet him in Komatipoort?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I've read that.

MR JANSEN: So that means only one thing, Mr Coetzee said that either you or Erasmus had contact with Schoon?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes you can draw that inference yes.

MR JANSEN: Is he making a mistake or is he lying?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't know Mr Chairman, I really don't know.  I did not contact Mr Schoon, that's all I can tell you.

MR JANSEN: A year before this incident, you were still the commanding officer of at Evander?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that's correct.

MR JANSEN: And you're telling us now at this committee that on your way back to Komatipoort or on your way back to Port Elizabeth you never went to your former colleagues in Ermelo, you didn't visit them there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I didn't.

MR JANSEN: You are also aware of Mr Coetzee's version in this regard, namely that Rorich and Deetlefs from Ermelo were involved in taking Kondile's car away.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I read something like that, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: If I put it to you that your version or the present version is the result offered is that you do not want to incriminate Rorich or Deetlefs because they are going to apply for amnesty?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It's not like that, they were not involved, they had nothing to do with the vehicle.

MR JANSEN: Do you know whether Deetlefs or Rorich have applied for amnesty?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I know they didn't apply for amnesty for this case but for others.

MR JANSEN: In any case would you agree with the following statement?  Should Mr Coetzee have informed Schoon at that stage, Schoon would not have found it strange because of the culture in the Security Police?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I agree with that.

MR JANSEN: And if Erasmus had felt he wanted to inform Erasmus that he was going to use Coetzee he would have done that?  It's not like it was a secret for Schoon.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I don't know.  I can't speak on behalf of Mr Erasmus, I accept that.

MR JANSEN: One of your primary tasks was that you were involved in the trade unions amongst others?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I was a unit commander of which labour unrest was one of our tasks.

MR JANSEN: And this was related to monitoring the trade union leader's?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: You are also aware that Mr Coetzee is applying for amnesty for stealing two trade union vehicles, a combi and an Audi?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I heard about that, and officially they Audi had to do with the Kondile case.

MR JANSEN: You yourself were you involved in this Audi matter?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR JANSEN: You deny Mr Coetzee's version in this regard?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I deny it yes.

MR JANSEN: Regarding the combi?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I deny it.

MR JANSEN: When the question was posed you regarding the differences in this Kondile matter, whether it had anything to do with the dispute with Mr Coetzee and you said no it didn't have anything to do with it and you are also denying that you asked Mr Coetzee to steal an Audi?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, I am denying that.

MR JANSEN: Can you answer then why on earth did Mr Coetzee know which trade union leader in Port Elizabeth or where a trade union leader lived in P E who had a car where it could be towed in without you knowing about it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can't comment on that.  As far as I know during the time they were in Port Elizabeth, they made contact with various of my staff members, they exchanged information and surely these people could have told them where they could find places where terrorists were and I wasn't the only person who contacted Coetzee.

MR JANSEN: You're still clinging to that basic, or your version is still based on the fact that Mr Coetzee was a rogue policeman who from under your nose committed a lot of offences?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I'm not saying that.

MR JANSEN: It's already been put to you but I'm going to put to you again, how would Mr Coetzee have known that Mr Kondile was detained in single quarters?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can't give you an answer to that, I can speculate about it but I can't give you a key fitting to that. I did not take Mr Coetzee there, I don't know whether anyone else had taken him there, whether he had heard it from somebody.

MR JANSEN: Did it not bother you that Mr Coetzee was mislead so relatively easily by Kondile?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I had similar experiences during earlier years.  If you play this kind of game, somebody said you give and you take when there are risks involved.  There is no way, for example that's why I - world-wide are sometimes arrested, there's no way in which it can be sure that this thing won't boomerang.

MR JANSEN: During your career it was also said during evidence there were no sophisticated debriefings by various expert panels.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No Mr Chairman.  I have no knowledge of these specialised debriefing units.

MR JANSEN: There was the head of the C-Division at Headquarters? Mr van Rensburg.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that's correct.

MR JANSEN: Explain to me what C-2 was.