Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

GEORGE BIZOS: You can't.  You will find, Mr Chairman, the Andrew Boraine reference is B199 to 200, and in Exhibit G, the State vs Barnard, at pages 1853 line 15, to 1854 line 15.  That's Exhibit G, Mr Chairman.
	And what about Mr Allan Boesak, had you heard of him?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, he was known to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And he was certainly more high profile than Frank Chikane or Lubowski or any other of the people on our list, he was a high profile UDF leader, correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Also a thorn in your flesh?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And a prominent one?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, a thorn in the flesh.

GEORGE BIZOS: And why would he be monitoring, why would Peaches be monitoring on the instructions of Mr van Zyl, Allan Boesak?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, I suppose it's to gather intelligence.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Chairperson, I don't think that was Mr van Zyl's evidence.  You see, Chairperson, it's very ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: It's Peaches' version.

MR MARTINI: Oh, but not Mr van Zyl's version.  We don't want to interrupt all the time, but I've got the impression that sometimes Mr Bizos does get it incorrect because he's trying to repeat evidence, so the fact that I might not object does not mean that we accept the version that Mr Bizos is putting that my client, Mr van Zyl may have stated it, 'cause we'll be here ages arguing.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(no microphone) that insofar as I may get it wrong, but I do believe that I get it right most of the time.  I stand to be corrected and I will correct it, Mr Chairman.  This is why I'm giving you the references, so that you can check them, so that there is this - Mr Martini can check them as well.  And in relation to Allan Boesak you will also find that Mr Chairman, in Barnard, in Exhibit G again, 1853, line 15 to 18354(sic), line 15.  It's the same - they're coupled together, Mr Chairman.  I'm sorry, the Barnard is in relation to the previous one, it doesn't relate to this one.  It's only Peaches, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Let me just repeat that reference please, Mr Bizos.

CHAIRPERSON: So Exhibit G doesn't apply to ...(indistinct - no microphone)

GEORGE BIZOS: B206.  Peaches, ...(indistinct) to Peaches in the case of Boesak on the instructions of Mr van Zyl.  And I may say Mr Chairman, in response to the objection by Mr Martini, that the mere fact that information for these purposes is hearsay because the person is no longer among the living, doesn't make it inadmissible in terms of our law of evidence.  But we will argue about that later, Mr Chairman.
	You know Trevor Manuel?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know him at the time?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wasn't he as high a profile UDF leader as Dullah Omar?

EDWARD WEBB: If I didn't know him, how would I know what kind of profile he had.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  For what purpose would Trevor Manuel be monitored?

EDWARD WEBB: I have no knowledge of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: By Barnard - by Peaches, I'm sorry.  According to my information, van Zyl's evidence in State vs Barnard, Exhibit G, also at 1853 line 15 to 1854 line 15.
	Now did you ever hear of the name of Mhlaba, spelt M-h-l-a-b-a?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

MR COETZEE: Mr Bizos is referring to Exhibit G, it is not Exhibit G, it's bundle G.  There's a difference.  Exhibit G is just for the sake of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Coetzee.  So wherever I've written or anybody else had written exhibit, we'll call it bundle G.

GEORGE BIZOS: Bundle G.  Thank you for drawing our attention to that.  I'm sorry.
	Now in relation to Mr - did you read the Harms Commission report?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were not interested?

EDWARD WEBB: I read what was in the newspapers, I didn't read the report itself.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, a pity, but let me read to you.  Bundle D, page 41, this is the Commission' report.  Listen in the words of His Lordship what your CCB did, General Webb.
"Mr Mhlaba is an attorney in Durban.  A member of the CCB who operated in Swaziland and Mozambique, alleges that he obtained information that Mr Mhlaba was controlling finances for the ANC, besides which he was procuring weapons for the ANC.  Precisely what happened is not clear.  What is certain however, is that on the 4th of March 1989, Du Plooy was preparing a document dealing with the elimination of Mr Mhlaba by means of poisoning.  The poison was to be administered on the 13th of March 1989.
			The reasons for the elimination, as set forth in the document, are that Mhlaba is a senior ANC member in this country, that he has secret means of communication with members abroad, that he recruits couriers, that he supplies military members with funds for operations, is involved with the UDF.  The document is incomplete and apparently there was an alternative to shoot Mhlaba.  Nothing came of these plans.  The reason why is doubtful in the light of the evidence.  Who was responsible for proposing and evaluating the elimination is also doubtful.  What is certain however is, a member of an external region was involved in the possible elimination of a citizen of the RSA within the borders of the country.  
			The grounds for ...(indistinct) are appalling since the intended victim, if convicted in a court of law, would have received a sentence of imprisonment for his actions.  The factual basis underlying the reasons for his elimination is extremely shaky and suspect.  The problem regarding this document is that it may be indicative of an attempted conspiracy to murder.  As the three persons alleged to be involved are all untrustworthy witnesses, it is impossible to make any further factual findings concerning these events."
Now what is clear in the first part of the statement that I read out to you, is that it was a member of the CCB who was not named by the Judge because at that time not all members were named, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  But later he says that it was Du Plooy.  Was Du Plooy a member of the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you attended the CCB hearings before Judge Harms regularly, didn't you?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now ...(no - microphone)

MR LAX: But Bizos, he also names the others there, in a footnote, in footnote 11 on that page 42. ...(no microphone)

GEORGE BIZOS: Now were you approached for this?

EDWARD WEBB: Approached for what?

GEORGE BIZOS: In relation to this action?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is this another example of Verster not taking you into his confidence?

MR WESSELS: With respect, Mr Chairman, Mr Bizos must read the evidence given in the Harms Commission before he makes a statement like that.  Verster testified there that he was not aware of a project to eliminate Mhlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but if there was a project to eliminate Mhlaba, on your testimony General, he should have gone through you?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, if there was such a project.

CHAIRPERSON: If it was during March 1989.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, if there was such a project, yes Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know anything about this Mr du Plooy, who he is?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: At the time, how did such a serious allegation and such a serious and deplorable finding by the Judge, irrespective of the fact that he couldn't rely on the other CCB witnesses like Verster and others - were you not concerned to find out what happened behind your back?  How could you have missed this?

EDWARD WEBB: Mr Verster said himself that he knew nothing about the project.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but you as the Head of the CCB, did you go up to Du Plooy and say, "Hey what is going on here behind my back, were you a member of the CCB?"