Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, look, I indicated that when I slapped the Reverend Poswana I felt sorry the same day when they took him away, but looking at the overall picture I think I feel more guilty than the interrogators themselves, there is no use you know trying to blame, push or shift blame to someone else.  I personally had a moral obligation to see to either the suspects or the victims should be properly handled by the interrogators.
	My failure I think has also contributed a lot to the conditions in which these people found themselves during the interrogation and I am deeply sorry that I allowed these thing to carry on like that, and I also physically assaulted one of these victims.  
	You know looking at what happened to me after that I think people would be able to realise how deeply sorry I was.  
	Mr Chair, I was the Deputy Commander of the Security Branch until I was transferred on the instruction of the President then, President Mpepu to go and be Chief of Staff of the Venda Defence Force in 1985, and then I went through a number of courses in the defence force.  Eventually I ended up as the appointed Chief of Defence Force, the Deputy Chief of Defence Force and I has to proceed again on other courses until in 1990 with the release of Mandela, President Mandela, and that I also got involved in a military coup d'etat in Venda.  I took over Venda and I tried everything at my disposal then to reconcile the people of Venda with those who were the enemies of Venda.  I built the Venda people and united them and brought in the spirit of reconciliation.  
	When we were due to represent Venda at Codesa and later on at multi-party conference I made sure that all people from all spheres of life, especially those in Venda, are nominated to sit with me at Codesa and multi-party talks. I took, amongst the victims here, Dean Farisani, he was one of my delegation.  To me this is a sign of reconciliation.  It is a sign that says forget about the past, let's build a new South Africa together.  	I am the first homeland leader to host the first internal conference of MK.  We were fighting against MK in 1981 and '79 backwards.  But I found it necessary to gather them to come to Venda and host a conference, the MK conference.  
	I brought the various groupings within South Africa and Venda to come and discuss about quo vadis TBVC.  To look at what is going to happen to the TBVC States, because the future of these states were in the hands of who comes into power in the new South Africa, so I held a conference to discuss the future of these TBVC.  
	I was the first homeland leader to visit the MK headquarters in Lusaka.  The first conference of the TBVC, MK, SANDF was attended by me.  
	I was responsible for bringing about, for brokering the conference on enmity between the South African Defence Force, South African Police and APLA in Harare.  
	Now I can name a number of things that indicates you know, the change of attitude, the change of approach, the deepest felt apology that one could bring across.

MR MEYER: General if I can just interrupt you there, is there anything that you would like say to the victims of those assaults and tortured?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Well, to the victims I would like to say to you, I am very, very sorry for what has happened.  Forgive me.  And I know especially the families of those people, the victims.  They were hurt then especially then when they saw their loved ones they were coming out of the dungeon, coming from the ruthless torture of my men.  I am very sorry about it.  Forgive them too.
	And I also would like to make a calling upon all those other people who were involved in the attack on the police station that they should come and say sorry, to the parents and children of those two policemen who were burned to ashes at Sibasa police station.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I hope Mr Ramushwana you are aware that we are dealing with your amnesty application.  We would appreciate it if you could confine your evidence to what is required for you to present in terms of satisfying the requirements of the Act that we have to decide upon whether we grant you amnesty or not.

MR MEYER: General, if there is one other aspect in your application you also mention that you ask for amnesty with regard to perjury.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Is it correct that as a result of the assaults on some of the detainees some of them instituted civil proceedings against the police at that stage?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: And is it also correct that for the purpose of those proceedings that were instituted you were required to make statements with regard to whether or not the people were assaulted?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: And is it correct further that you made false statements with regard to that fact?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair.

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman I am referring to page 106 of the bundle.  If I can just show you the statement General, the more important part is the last paragraph where you say that
"The interrogation of this detainee was conducted by myself and my two assistants only.  At no time was he assaulted or any violent means used by any of us to obtain incriminating evidence or admissions from him".

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Is that a statement you made?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: And you know that this statement was false?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair.

MR MEYER: And this is with regard to the Reverend Posiwa.  Is that correct?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair.

MR MEYER: What was the reason that you made a false statement in this regard?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Firstly the statement, if I had written a different statement from that one it will mean that I had supporting evidence from he medical report, but then there was no medical report to support that statement.

MR MEYER: If I can just have a minute Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be "defeating the ends of justice" that, Mr Meyer, sorry if I am just looking at page 27 where he is asking for assault, defeating ends of justice and perjury.  Defeating the ends of justice is that also relating to these civil proceedings that you've just referred to?

MR MEYER: Indeed so Mr Chairman.  That is correct.  I have no further questions at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Meyer. Mr van Rensburg, do you have any questions to ask this applicant?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Indeed I have a few questions to the applicant.  General as you know I am representing the 5th applicant in today's proceedings, that is Captain Carlson Netshivale and perhaps I can start off by asking you do you know this person?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you please tell us how you know him and where did you meet him?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I knew him as a serving member of the then Venda Defence,  Venda National Force.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Police Force.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: It was then National Force, not police force.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: And then he was attached to the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just for my information, you had a Venda National Force, just one National Force.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: With branches.

CHAIRPERSON: With branches, what were those - army ...(intervention)

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Army....

CHAIRPERSON: Police....

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Police, prison and traffic.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so you didn't actually have a stand alone police force?  It was a branch of the National Force of which the Commissioner was the head of that branch.  And then within the police you had a security branch or was that a stand alone?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No.