Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ANTON PRETORIUS: Whether I received a statement from Mr Lemmer? As in when?

MR VALLY: ... stage a statement from Mr Lemmer in November 1988, regarding the abduction of Mr Lolo Sono and Mr Anthony Shabalala, allegedly by Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No, I don't remember it. It's possible but I don't remember it.

MR VALLY: ... or did you, sorry. Did you or did any other member of the Security Branch to your knowledge on any of the information that you received, regarding MK guerrillas visiting Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

ANTON PRETORIUS: We staged many actions. I think the Security Branch of Soweto followed up about fifty percent, if I can take a guess of information reacted to about fifty percent of the information that we got in. If not more. I can't give a percentage but that's my opinion.

MR VALLY: Mr Pretorius, has a number of your colleagues here, even senior to you, who've used words like Mrs Madikizela Mandela was untouchable, that you could not raid her premises without getting permission from head quarters? You telling us that you can't remember. Fifty percent you did so, maybe fifty percent of the reports regarding Mrs Madikizela Mandela's involvement with MK guerrillas you raided her house. Am I to understand that?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, I did not say, I did not refer to at Mrs Mandela's house. The question was action against MK members. There are many actions against MK members. There were members of the force killed in those actions. Such as the killing of Sergeant Pretorius. The Security Unit together with the Riot Unit acted when there was information against MK members. Even in a case like Potgieter said, a case for instance where Mrs Mandela, where there was evidence that Mrs Mandela was involved. Somebody referred to the blood traces. We even went to her in such cases if necessary. So I'm not trying what, know what Mr Vally is trying to prove. The impression that the previous witnesses were trying to give was that Mrs Mandela was not the kind of person whom you visited upon a brain wave and upset her whole household and see if I could arrest her. That would have meant the end of my career at that stage.

MR VALLY: ... attacked to Mrs Madikizela Mandela's household or Mandela United Football Club, besides Mr Jerry Richardson?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No I don't.

MR VALLY: ...

ANTON PRETORIUS: I think all the people who've testified here have given indications. The only person who could perhaps have said was Colonel Watermeyer and I think he has already said that there wasn't another person.

MR VALLY: ... Richardson for the first time?

ANTON PRETORIUS: As I have said in my statement, I don't remember the date. It was the day of the death of Sergeant Pretorius when I found out.

MR VALLY: ... or did you ever take part in any assaults of any person in your career or in your time at the Security Branch in Soweto, for the ten years you were at the Security Branch in Soweto?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission I was never until today, have never been found guilty of any form of assault. It is so that I was accused of it, am being accused of it. And that's part of an amnesty application which I don't think is relevant here. But I wasn't personally present where somebody was tortured or assaulted in Soweto.

MR VALLY: Did the Security Branch in Soweto have any links with what was called Trewits? Do you know what  Trewits is? T-R-E-W-I-T-S.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Yes, anti-revolutionary task teams. Yes, honourable chairman the anti-revolutionary task team.

MR VALLY: ... contact with them?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I think I was the official representative of Soweto there.

MR VALLY: ... which was linked to the State Security Council was tasked with identifying individuals which were of interest to the State Security Council. Would that be a correct analysis?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, I am just going to ask that he repeats it a little bit slower this time round.

MR KEMP: May we know the relevance of this line of questioning? It's never been mentioned before, it's not a part of the subpoenas. It doesn't form part of any of the documentation and as far as I know not part of any of this enquiry so far. I do not object to the question itself I only would like to know the relevance.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Madame Chair, it's absolutely relevant. Especially now that we've ascertained what Mr Pretorius' role was. Trewits in our understanding was the body which was mandated to identify potential and one thesis is potential targets for assassination. Another thesis is people that the State Security Council wanted profiles built on. My very next question which will help Mr Kemp is, did Trewits task you or the State Security Council through Trewits, task you to build up a profile on the activities of Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela?

YASMINE SOOKA: Before Mr Pretorius answers that question, I'm going to ask that we take a short adjournment of five minutes, so I can decide how we're going to deal with the remaining witnesses. We'll come back in five minutes.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

YASMINE SOOKA: ... to the matter in question.

MR KEMP: Thank you Madame Chairperson. The, indeed the question which Mr Vally said he was going to ask is relevant and I have no problem with that. Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. Mr Pretorius, I remind you that you're under oath and I'm going to ask Mr Vally to repeat the question.

MR VALLY: Were you not tasked by Trewits to draw up profiles of certain people they have identified as potential leaders in different communities?

ANTON PRETORIUS: The leaders to whom you are referring, are they inland or overseas?

MR VALLY: ....(inaudible)

ANTON PRETORIUS: Not during a meeting that I attended, as far as I can remember.

MR VALLY: You were in Soweto from '81 to '91, how, in that period how long were you the Trewits representative in Soweto?

ANTON PRETORIUS: If I can say to the commission, I was one of Trewits' representatives. There were other people as well. I did not attend every Trewits meeting there was. There were other people as well.

MR VALLY: Did you attend a Trewits meeting where Mrs Madikizela-Mandela or the Mandela United Football Club was discussed?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Not that I can remember at this stage.

MR VALLY: Did you ever attend a meeting where the infiltration of MK guerrillas via Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela was discussed?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Is that at a Trewits meeting or an ordinary meeting?

MR VALLY: (...indistinct)

ANTON PRETORIUS: Just Trewits. Let me say it this way. There were various meetings where MK people had infiltrated, were they would have infiltrated. But I cannot remember correctly, exactly whether MK members would have gone to Mrs Mandela. But I can't remember that now. Except if Mr Vally perhaps refreshed my memory.

MR VALLY: Did you attend any meeting where the issue of MK guerrillas, whether it was Trewits meeting or a Security Branch meeting or an ordinary police meeting, where the issue of Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela and MK guerrillas, they infiltrated through her house, was discussed?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Sorry

CHAIRPERSON: I think the interpreters missed that question. I didn't hear it either.

MR VALLY: My question is this. Did you attend any meeting where the issue, whether it was a Trewits meeting or an ordinary Security Branch meeting or an ordinary police meeting where the issue of MK guerrillas coupled with Mrs Madikizela Mandela's role in assisting them was discussed?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I would say so, I would say yes.

MR VALLY: ... details of this?