Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was writing the way I knew.  I was writing the way I wanted to explain to the Committee, I didn't know then that I supposed to put it aside and make a different paragraph in that regard.  I accept it that that is the mistake I made, I included that name.  I would not tell the Committee that I committed that operation with an instruction though I didn't receive any instructions to do that.  I received instructions for other operations except this house, that is a different case altogether.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, you see Mr Ngo, on page 46 you repeated the mistake in your second application where you said: "I confirm" - the last paragraph
"I confirm that the above-mentioned including all operations of illegal nature that I had been involved in but were ...[inaudible]-convicted of all the acts committed.  I respectfully submit that none of these acts were done of my own accord and to my own advantage, all the acts were committed in the time of duty and on instruction of members of the security branch who held higher ranks than me and whose instruction I was bound to obey"
So, is it correct that the mistake was repeated in your later application?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What I would explain is that I was writing an application legally as I explained.  If it happened that I included that incident as I said, I included it by mistake in that list and in my application, that is the mistake I accept.  I would not change that thing I received instructions, it's a different case as to other cases.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Ngo on page 13 of bundle C, you say in paragraph B - A, in the middle of that page, you say
"Within a period of three weeks Sergeant Bokaba and Constable Selahla and you petrol-bombed the houses"
Now, that was in 1987 to 1988, is that correct?  Do you say that there?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I said that.  I was making an estimation of the period which I thought it was right, I was not cocksure of the period but we started in 1987.  It was the period I have given.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, and then on page 10 of bundle A, the fifth line from the bottom - page 10, this is the application of Venter which was committed in January 1989, - the fifth line from the bottom, you say
"I was transported to Bloemfontein by Constable Hendrik Bokaba with a state vehicle"
Do you see that?  You say he was a Constable in 1989 but in your first application you say he was already a Sergeant in 1987 to 1988 - in bundle C.  Was that also a mistake?  ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, I don't think that he says that he was a Sergeant already then - what is fair to put is that you refer to him as a Sergeant, why do you refer to him as a Sergeant?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's fair.

MR DU PLESSIS: Well, Mr ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He consistently refers to Colonel Coetzee in his application when he has time and again in his evidence said that at that time he was a Major.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I'm pointing that out for purposes of the improbability of him being involved in the security branch.  He would have known when he worked with Bokaba, according to his own evidence for more than two years, he would have known when Bokaba was a Constable and when he was a Sergeant.  	And according to this he was demoted, I'm just pointing that out for what the value of that was.  The answer was however put into the witnesses mouth by my learned friend and I won't take it further than that unless the Committee wants the witness to answer to this.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ngo, could you kindly tell us why did refer to him as a Sergeant in 1987 and as a Constable in 1988?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It happened that whilst I was writing I would make mistakes about people's ranks.  That is just a question of a mere mistake but I knew the name of the person.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Now Mr Ngo, ...[intervention]

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What is Mr Bokaba's rank now?

MR DU PLESSIS: He's a Captain now Mr Chairman.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When did he become a Captain?

MR DU PLESSIS: Recently Mr Chairman, as far as I know.  I will just get 100% instructions, I know sort of, I just want to make 100% sure.  Mr Chairman, I see it's 10 past 11, perhaps Sir, if we can take the tea break I can give you the exact dates of his - of the ranks that he held at what time.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we'll take the adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: (s.u.o).

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Ngo, can you turn to page 46, bundle A please and page 13 of bundle C.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Page ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Page 46, bundle A and page 13 of bundle C.  Have you got that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I've got it.

MR DU PLESSIS: This is the application pertaining to the security guard officer and I want to ask you a few questions about that.  What was the reason Mr Ngo, why the security guard had to be picked up?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were told that he provides security for people who are members of certain organisations in the hostel.  He was identified by Hendrik Bokaba when we were together.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now, on page 13 of bundle C, you said that
"You got out of the minibus, started chasing him but he ran into the Pubma bottle store"
You said:
"Sergeant Bokaba said we must shoot him, we fired several shots at him and he fell and stand up, run through the bottle store"
Is that correct, is that what happened?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I said he told us to shoot him, I didn't say he shoot him.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right, but you see what you say there in page 13, bundle C, you say
"Sergeant Bokaba said we must shoot him, we fired several shots at him"
That is what you said there, is that not correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We shoot in his direction.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now, did you fire shots or didn't you fire shots?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We did shoot at his direction.

MR DU PLESSIS: And where was he when he fell?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was running towards the bottle store after we fired at him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, you see, because you say in Annexure C, page 13, you say
"We started chasing him but he ran into Pubma bottle store"
And then you say:
"Sergeant Bokaba said we must him and we fired several shots at him, he fell and stand up and run through the bottle store"
	Now, the way you set it out, he was already in the bottle store when you fired shots at him and he fell and he ran through the bottle store, is that not correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was running facing to the bottle store but he didn't enter into the bottle store.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did he never enter the bottle store or did he enter the bottle store at some stage?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He didn't enter the bottle store.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now you say on page 13, you say
"and stand up, run through the bottle store.  Sergeant Bokaba said we must leave him"
Is that not correct then?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He passes nearby the bottle store.  I'm not an English speaking person.  I didn't manage to write a perfect English.  If it might happen it's a mistake when I was supposed to explain that he just passed by the bottle store, I made a mistake of language.

MR DU PLESSIS: You see, because in your later application on page 46, you say
"when I got out of the motor vehicle, I called him and then - and when he recognised the man, ran away, I then picked out my firearm and shoot to his direction and he run to the direction of the shopping complex in Pubma bottle store in Mamelodi and fall amongst the peoples there and Hendrik then said we must leave him anyway, we have hit him"
Mr Chairman, that's not my English, I'm reading from the statement, I just want to make that clear.
	Now Mr Ngo, we see in your application you don't say anything about him running through the bottle store or that he ran into the bottle store, now was that a mistake here in your first application?