Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

MR STRYDOM: Are you referring, I just want to tell - you're referring to the Koyokos that were at that stage close to the footbridge or the other Koyokos outside Metal Box?  I just want to know that.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said three Koyokos were parked under a tree near the Metal Box gate.  That is where the flare was fired.  The other two were just travelling along the streets, this other street, Umzimvubu.

MR STRYDOM: So the flare was fired close to Metal Box?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said the three vehicles were parked under a tree nearby Metal Box.  That is where the flare was fired and the area was lit up.  The other two were just travelling along Umzimvubu.

MR STRYDOM: How do you know white people fired the flare?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I can see that you are white, I could also see that they were white.  What do you want me to say?  If you see a white person, wouldn't you say you saw a white person?

MR STRYDOM: So from your position close-by your house, you could identify if a person is white or black if that person was standing close to Metal Box?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The people who were driving Koyokos were white.  I've never seen a black person driving a Koyoco.

MR STRYDOM: Is that why you say a white person fired a flare, because you assume the driver did that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They alighted from the vehicles.  I could clearly see that they were white.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, would this be a convenient stage to take the adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: I'll try to limit myself to half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: Well I'll try to make it a half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: I estimate half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not ...(indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: No, I understand you're not limiting me, Chairperson.  I think I'll be another half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: That will ...(indistinct)

MS CAMBANIS: Chairperson, before the adjournment, may I just correct a wrong instruction I gave to Mr Berger.  Mr Baloyi did not say anything about glasses, all he said is that
"I cannot do this"
Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take an adjournment now and we'll come back at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ma'am?

MS THOMAS: Thank you, Chairperson.  I have had an opportunity to consider the documents, peruse them and take instructions on the basis of the documentation and we have come to a conclusion that we may proceed at eleven thirty, if that is suitable to all the members.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the - have you had time to consider those who are assisting you?

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chair, I haven't had any objections to us proceeding at this stage.  I don't know what the position of Mr da Silva is, I didn't speak to him.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, in the time available to me, I've had a look at the document.  I haven't had a proper look at the document, but in the light of my instructions being that we are not a party to the application and that my clients abide by the Committee's decision, I cannot, in regard to the application proceeding, I cannot see any objection in that line.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Mr Botha?

MR BOTHA: No objection, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you abide by the decision of the Committee?

MR BOTHA: Indeed, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And Mr Lowies is taking the matter on behalf of the, Advocate Pretorius and Mr Strydom, is that right?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, that's correct from my side.

CHAIRPERSON: The two of you have no objection to the matter proceeding?

MS PRETORIUS: No objection.

MR STRYDOM: I haven't got an objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Tanzer?

MS TANZER: I too have no objection and also abide by the decision of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Where is Mr Mey?

MR BOTHA: He's sitting here at the back, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ordinarily I would have preferred to finish with this witness first you know, before we hear argument, but unfortunately one doesn't know how long it will take and I would hate to inconvenience Adv Thomas, who has to come all the way from Pretoria for this argument.  Mr Lowies has yet to cross-examine and Adv Pretorius and Adv da Silva and Adv Botha and Ms Tanzer.  Mr Mey, where do you stand?  Would you just come up to the microphone please.  Did you receive the document that was submitted by the TRC yesterday or today?

MR MEY: I've received it late yesterday afternoon, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What is your position in regard to the application?

MR MEY: I've got no objection if they proceed now and I abide with the ruling of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR MEY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, unfortunately we have to interrupt your evidence at this stage and deal with a matter which we were supposed to deal with yesterday morning, but because of other difficulties we could not.  So we will deal with that matter now and thereafter we will proceed with your evidence.  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.
WITNESS STANDS DOWN

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chair, before we start, may I just place on record that the van coming from the prison in Pretoria was involved in an accident this morning, nobody was injured, but according to the prison authorities, Victor has to go back and be seen by a district surgeon, so he won't attend the rest of today's hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Very well, we'll note that.  Yes, very well.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chairman.  Chairman, as is clear from the Notice of Application, there are basically three applications in this matter; paragraph 1, paragraph 3 and paragraph 4, each with its own subsection.
	Chairman, at this stage I have to inform you that as a result of the documentation that we received yesterday from the TRC, the ones that were handed to us by Mr Zuko Mapoma, the ones that were the subject of discussion, it appears that at this stage, Chairman, prayers 1 and 4 actually fall away.  There is a ...(intervention)

MR LAX: One ...?

MR LOWIES: Paragraph 1.  That's the amnesty application by Andries Nosenga.  The heading is at the application by Andries Nosenga.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is the one that deals with, that requires an investigation, is it?

MR LOWIES: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR LOWIES: And 4.

CHAIRPERSON: And 4.

MR LOWIES: Ja.  Chair, I have to - sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that leaves ...(intervention)

MR LOWIES: The declarator.

CHAIRPERSON: What about 2?

MR LOWIES: 2 is a preamble.  It's a preamble to 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay so - oh, 2 and 3 are together?

MR LOWIES: Yes, 2, 3 and 4 are together.  2 you could also regard as a preamble to 4.  But as I said ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute, 4 falls away, doesn't it?

MR LOWIES: It does.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, so we're left with 2 and 3.

MR LOWIES: That's correct, Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And all that you require - it has to do with the declarator?

MR LOWIES: That's correct.  However, before I proceed with that, I would just like to mention two aspects pertaining to prayers 1 and 3, if it's convenient to you.  Prayers 1 and 4, my mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let me just make a note of this.  Shall we mark this document DD?  I think that's the next exhibit.  Yes, very well.  Okay, very well, so Exhibit DD will the response of the TRC, dated 11 May 1999, together with documents annexed thereto, which is in response to a letter dated 5 May 1999, addressed to the TRC by the attorneys who are acting for the applicants?

MR LOWIES: That's correct, Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Was this off?