Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

ADV GCABASHE: And when you joined Apla and became a task force member, you had no desire to go into exile and wage the struggle with other comrades outside the country?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Anything was possible, yes. There was such an intention but then I was committed to following any instruction in the organisation, whether I was being sent overseas or Tanzania, yes I would do that, because I had committed myself to the organisation.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thanks, Mr Simelane. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Have you got anything?

MR MALAN: Mr Simelane, did I hear you respond, making a distinction between task force and Apla? Did you say you were not a member of Apla, you were merely a member of the task force?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes, I was a member of the task force under the control of Apla.

MR MALAN: But you didn't see yourself as a member of Apla?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: I was seeing myself as a member of Apla because my commanders were members of Apla. All I knew that I was operating as a member of the task force.

MR MALAN: The vehicle that you used for the operation, this Nissan vehicle, was it a bakkie?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: You mean the one that, are you referring to the vehicle that we used to drive to the operation?

MR MALAN: Yes, the one that you followed the security vehicle with.

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes, it was a Nissan bakkie, a 1400.

MR MALAN: Was it an open bakkie?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes, it was an open bakkie.

MR MALAN: Do I understand you then correctly, also that you loaded the trunks with the money onto the bakkie at the dumping site and went to another place to count it.

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes. We loaded these trunks in the van and we sat on top of the trunks. Yes, that's what we did.

MR MALAN: How many trunks were there?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: I cannot recall the total amount of trunks that we had, but I think there were not more than 10.

MR MALAN: Were they marked?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: I think they were similar to these ones, but they had these big writings, I think they were black writings that were on the outside.

MR MALAN: Now, this security company that owned the security van, what was its name? What was the name of the security company?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: I did not know the name, I only heard the name in court, I think it was Trust Cash something.

MR MALAN: And this, these trunks, were they locked in that security vehicle, or was there easy access to them? Where were they kept?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: I do not quite understand the question, Chairperson, are you saying they were locked or what?

MR MALAN: Yes, let me, let me try and explain. I understand that you all took your position on the seat which seems to me if you talk front seat, the only seat in the security vehicle, or did it have more seats?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: No, I am saying we all occupied the front seat. There was only one seat and a canopy.

MR MALAN: Right. So the canopy, the trunks were in the bottom part, the back part, sorry, the back part of that security vehicle under the canopy.

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: There was no access from the driver's position or the front seat to the trunks other than through the back, or how was there access to the money?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: That is correct. You'd have to get out of the vehicle and go to the back to gain access into the inside of the canopy.

MR MALAN: Was the doors at the back, were they locked?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes, they were locked.

MR MALAN: Where did you get the key from to unlock them?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: These were the ones that were hanging from the ignition key.

MR MALAN: Were they part of the ignition keys? And you say the company, you only remember it as Trust Cash something?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes, I think it was Trust Cash something.

MR MALAN: You failed to ask your fellow applicants because I was under the impression all along that it was all along the Fidelity Guards company. And may also have been the impression we had at the TRC and why we did not manage to make contact with this specific firm and the victims. Can you, is it possible to consult with them and see if you can come up with the specific name in order to assist us in tracing the victims at least?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll do my best, but when I was consulting, that's why you put Cash in Transit. I couldn't get the name, that was the problem. I would have put the name. The problem was that they couldn't remember the name. So we just write it was a cash, it was a security company, just Cash in Transit, that's why we put that in affidavit.

MR MALAN: Can you remember the address where that vehicle departed from when you followed it that morning of the incident?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: No, I do not remember. No.

MR MALAN: And your evidence was that you think you stopped at the T-junction about four or five cars behind the security vehicle. Did I understand you correctly, that there were three or four cars between yourself and the security vehicle?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes, Chairperson, I would try to explain and my co-applicants did indicate as well. This security guard van was in front and there was no other vehicle in front of it. We were behind it being separated by several vehicles, about three, four or five, or should I say, two or three. We were behind on the right lane and this security vehicle was on the left and it was stationary at the robots.

MR MALAN: Was it two lines of vehicles? Two rows in the same  direction? And you stopped on the right hand lane?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes, because, see, it was at the T-junction, some vehicles here were supposed to turn to the left and others to the right. Yes, that's the position, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Was there any reason why you travelled in the right hand lane, whilst the security van was on the left?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: I would not say exactly what the reason was. What was important was that we had to tail this vehicle. I  think the person who was supposed to answer that question was the person who was driving this 1400 bakkie. I was sitting at the back.

MR MALAN: Was there any reaction from the drivers of any of the other vehicles or passengers? In those four or five cars or more, because it may be a double row now as I understand it? Did any of them respond or follow the vehicle when you drove away?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: I don't know what they did really. We were not necessarily concerned about them. We were concentrating on this van. Yes, we had other comrades who were charged with the responsibility of monitoring the situation so we were concentrating on this van.

MR MALAN: And nobody else followed you that you can remember? Even at a distance.

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: I would not say, Chairperson, because there were many vehicles that were driving behind us, so I cannot say whether they were following us, or whether they were taking their own direction or just moving, because if they were following us, they would have followed us to the dumping site. I think they were just moving to wherever.

MR MALAN: Was there anyone else at the dumping site, that you observed? Or were you alone?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: No, it was just us alone. Because the place is such that it is in a ditch area. People cannot actually see you from a distance.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Simelane, what happened to the driver of that security vehicle? Was he also killed or what happened to him?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: He died. But I think he died after he was admitted in hospital. We only learnt about this during the course, or should I say, during the criminal proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: So did both the guards in the vehicle die eventually?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes, they died.

CHAIRPERSON: The driver was a white man, if you heard the evidence correctly.