Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Valus, you may call your witness - your client rather.

MR ROUX: As it pleases Mr Chairman, I call Ginotry Danster.  He will testify in Xhosa, that is his mother tongue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do we have the facilities for this?

MR ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairman, we've organised that already.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a microphone there for him sit?

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt, may I enquire whether the Committee has come to any decision concerning the evidence of Mr Coetzee or whether that would be left over until later?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it will.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Danster, are you prepared to take the oath?

GINOTRY DANSTER: (sworn states)

MR ROUX: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Danster, you joined the South African Police in April 1978?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That's correct.

MR ROUX: After your basic training was finished, where were you stationed?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I worked in Port Elizabeth.

MR ROUX: What department in Port Elizabeth or the South African Police?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Security police.

MR ROUX: During 1981, you went to Bloemfontein to fetch a terrorist, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you should do that you know.  I think that where matters are contested, try and avoid putting leading questions to him where it is likely that that evidence might be challenged.  So rather put your questions in such a way that they don't suggest the answer.

MR ROUX: As it pleases Mr Chairman, I will.

CHAIRPERSON: Where in Port Elizabeth were you stationed?

GINOTRY DANSTER: At 44 Strand Street.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the nature of the work that you did whilst you were in the security police?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We were investigating people who break laws in accordance with politics.

CHAIRPERSON: Under whom did you work at that time?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Under Mr du Plessis.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you in Port Elizabeth all the time or did they move you around?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was in Port Elizabeth.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you drive government vehicles, police vehicles?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know a man who was detained one Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you come to know him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We went to fetch him from Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is we?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Captain du Plessis, Buzani and Raath.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed from there.

MR ROUX: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	When was that when you went to fetch Mr Kondile, more or less that you can remember?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Early '80's

MR ROUX: Where did you go to in Bloemfontein when you went to fetch him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We went to the security police offices.

MR ROUX: Yes, and then?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We then slept over, got up in the morning and we left with a black policeman to the police station in Bloemfontein.

MR ROUX: Did this policeman lead you to anyone?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We were given a command by Captain du Plessis to go and fetch Sizwe from where he was detained.

MR ROUX: Did you succeed in this?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We booked him out and we took him to the security police offices.

MR ROUX: Do you know what happened with Mr Kondile after this?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We took him back to Port Elizabeth.

MR ROUX: What happened in Port Elizabeth?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We took him to Captain du Plessis's office.

ADV GCABASHE: Could I just ask Mr Danster, what was Sizwe Kondile's physical demean at the time, was he injured, was he fine?  What was your observation?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He was all right, in good health.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Danster tell me, how many motor vehicles went to Bloemfontein to fetch him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: One car.

JUDGE PILLAY: What kind of car was it?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Datsun Laurel.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many of you returned together?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It Buzani, Raath, Captain du Plessis, Sizwe, Kondile and myself.

ADV GCABASHE: On of the reasons I asked the question is, if you look at Volume 2 page 178, there is an entry here at Humansdorp, Friday the 10th of July 1981.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I can see it.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, give me a minute, I know I saw an entry and I just want to see if it's the same one, yes, it's the same one - that he was admitted to the cells and his nose was bleeding.  Is that on the day that you fetched him, no?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I don't know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to be absolutely clear, give me the names of the people you said.  Yourself, Mr du Plessis, Mr Kondile and who else?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Buzani.

CHAIRPERSON: And anybody else?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr Raath.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you returned in the same car in which you had gone up?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We had a problem in the car, they fetched another car.  I will tell you the people who fetched the car.

CHAIRPERSON: My questions was, did you return in the same car from Bloemfontein in which you had gone to Bloemfontein?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I think we had a problem with that car, it heated up and we had to borrow another car.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, so you borrowed another car.  And the car the you borrowed, is that now a Datsun?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  Carry on please.

MR ROUX: You testified that Kondile was taken to Mr du Plessis office in Port Elizabeth, can you tell the Commission what happened there?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We took him out of the car, we covered his head with a balaclava, he was handcuffed.  It must have been in the afternoon, later afternoon as people had already left from the offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR ROUX: We then went into the office and Mr du Plessis asked him a few questions.  After that he made a call and made arrangements for him to be detained.

MR ROUX: Do you know where this place was that was arranged for detention?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I didn't go personally however I was there when arrangements were being made.
MR ROUX

MR ROUX: Did you hear the place that was mentioned?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He phoned Mr Jonker in Jeffrey's Bay.

MR ROUX: Did you take part in ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR ROUX: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR ROUX: What was your part with Mr Kondile then again?  When did you become involved with him again?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr du Plessis had given us the information that we were supposed to get from him, this was written on paper.

JUDGE PILLAY: When did you receive the paper?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After Kondile had been detained in Jeffrey's Bay, Raath, Buzani and myself together with Mr du Plessis were given orders and we were given that piece of paper written the details which we were to ask Mr Kondile.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Danster, let us go back to the first day where you arrived from Bloemfontein.  After this phone call to make arrangements for his detention, what did you do?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was taken home.

JUDGE PILLAY: And the next time you had anything to do with Mr Kondile, was in Jeffrey's Bay?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR ROUX: When was that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was given an order to stay in Jeffrey's Bay for a while by Captain du Plessis.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was: when, how many days after you had brought Mr Kondile to Port Elizabeth, did you next ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'm not sure but it was soon after we'd come back with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR ROUX: In Jeffrey's Bay, were you alone - the only person who was instructed to go to Jeffrey's Bay to Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.  No, it was Raath and myself.

MR ROUX: Did you follow the instructions that were given to you in connection with the questionnaire that you received?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR ROUX: What was the result of the questions?  Did Mr Kondile answer the questions?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We would give him a pen and a paper to write down the answers.

MR ROUX: Did he give you all the answers to all the questions?