Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR STEENKAMP: Is that why you told that lie in your application?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: In your application - in the statement in the Section 29 statement that you made - in your evidence in chief you said in answer to a question by the Chairperson that you wanted to see if you could finance yourselves, is that correct?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes because every cell, when the financial affairs were not going according to plan, they told us to finance ourselves so that we could continue in that way.

MR STEENKAMP: And did anybody tell you to go and commit a robbery?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes, Dawie de Beer.

MS GCABASHE: Can I just ask at this point?  If you were robbing so as to collect money for the organisation what were you living on.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: There were certain of these individuals who belonged to the cells who supported us.  Other cells did not all resign but it's only us who lived in Vereeniging, myself  and Fanie Goosen and then the third person who was added.  We acted as representatives of the organisation because we were more prepared to do more than the others.

MS GCABASHE: So what allowance did you get.  How did you sustain yourself?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: As I have already said we also did odd jobs.  I was a bodyguard for another person for a short while, we also received funds from that.  I sold small items in order to support myself until we had managed to establish ourselves.

MR STEENKAMP: With the plea of guilty you had ample opportunity to explain to the court how the political motive was involved and the court made certain remarks regarding that but nowhere in the documents at our disposal at any stage unless in an Amnesty Application did you say that the money was used to finance the organisation, would you agree?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: During the court trial I pertinently brought that out.

MR STEENKAMP: That the money from the robbery was used for the financing of the organisation?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes and I told them exactly what had happened and I accepted that the court already had this information which came from my testimony in court at that time.

MR STEENKAMP: I cannot see this in the plea.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: It is so that my testimony from that time in court is not included but I assumed that you had this information available.

MR STEENKAMP: If you will look at page 7, Mr Chairman, it's marked page 7, basically the statement of the then security police.  It's a handwritten copy from minutes, Mr Chairman, page 7.  On the top there "Vertroulik/Confidential".  If you'll just look at the last paragraph:  "and that is why he has no remorse for his deeds and it is clear that the subject's deeds were criminally inspired and that his release would not achieve any reconciliation in the country."  It is a commentary document compiled by the then security police.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: The security police tried to discredit me during the trial by means of their remarks and I believe it's definitely as a result of our immunity under Section 29 between me and them which then occurred.  The part about the mud races I definitely said.

MR STEENKAMP: But the police were convinced that you were criminal.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Then why did they arrest me under Section 29 -they should beyond any reasonable doubt be able to prove that I am a threat to state security before they arrest me under the terms of Section 29.

MR STEENKAMP: Do I understand you correctly that this piece was inserted because you had problems with them?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes when I was under Section 29 I did everything in my power to oppose them and I believe it's a continuation thereof.

MR STEENKAMP: Just to bear with me a minute, Mr Chairman?  The question that I would like to pose to you is that the killing of an innocent party in this case a black person, could you tell me how this would have promoted the political objectives or intentions of any party at that stage the CP or the AWB - are you telling me that was the AWB's political objective at that point?  To kill black people in order to obtain a Volkstaat, is that what you're saying?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.  You must remember that it was in the spirit of - at that stage there was a lot of violence happening in the country and basically it was regarded as a war situation.

MR STEENKAMP: I think that you are misunderstanding my question, I will pose it to you again, could you tell me whether it was the AWB's political objective among others to kill black people?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes, I know of many cases apart from my own where the AWB leadership issued orders to commit murder.

MR STEENKAMP: To kill black people?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you name any examples?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: There were many people - do you remember the case of the road block near Ventersdorp where black people were shot?  With that roadblock there's one person who is in jail at the moment who I was involved with at one point and he told me that that had been one of his orders.

MR STEENKAMP: And the CP?  What do you think was their political objective?  Did you understand their orders in that way?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I never liaised with the CP leadership personally but the feedback which I received from De Beer was definitely that that was the case.

MR STEENKAMP: Did De Beer ever tell you that the AWB leadership had said that you should kill this person as part of your initiation process, this black person?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Why wouldn't you give this information in court or in your confession?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I gave this information in court when I was convicted.

MR STEENKAMP: I don't see it in the record.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Well there are a number of things which I see that are not here.

MR STEENKAMP: Is there anything else which you said in court?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I don't know - it was so many years ago that you would have to ask me pertinently in order for me to be able to answer you.

MR STEENKAMP: My question to you in conclusion, is that if I look at what you pointed out, the officer wrote down twice that the person laughed twice regarding the identification of who was killed and stabbed with a knife.  It was indicated that you showed no remorse.  How do you feel today?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Might I just explain the laughing issue to you.  At that point in time it was not my manner to talk about violence in front of women and the person who took me for the identification was a woman and I was uncomfortable and that is why I gave such strange funny answers to her at certain points because I do not like to discuss violence with women.

MR STEENKAMP: Then perhaps the last question which I would like to ask - if you will look at page 56 of your record.  The last paragraph, you state there that your actions were not political by nature and later you also said that you would like for your criminal actions and your political actions to be separated, is that so?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes, I stated that statement exactly in terms of the order coming through to me to make the statement like that because it was a Section 29 statement.

MR STEENKAMP: Were you told to make the statement like that?