Human Rights Violation Hearings — Empangeni — 1996-11-04

WITNESS:   Yes, they were having their differences and they were fighting.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Were you members of the ANC?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Now, where do the police feature?  Because you spoke about white policemen.

WITNESS:   No, it was not members of the IFP, but it was the police, looking for Simon Msweli.  The police were looking for a person whom they said was a member of the ANC, but they never told us as to what he had done.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Was it a usual occurrence for policemen to traumatise the ANC members or violate them?

WITNESS:   Yes, they used to violate ANC members and at times they would go around looking for Simon.  Most of the time when the police came into that area, they would be looking for Simon.  They would even ask small children as to whether they knew Simon Msweli.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Thereafter were you told as to how your husband died?

WITNESS:   When I was told - I was told that he was taken to the hospital and along the way they came across a certain policeman called Steyn, and this policeman said they must be put into the van and he finished them off, but I do not know as to how he killed them.  It was himself and Simon.

KHOZA MGOJO:  And your husband and Simon were already injured at the time that they were taken to the hospital and they came across Steyn.  What was Steyn?

WITNESS:   Steyn was a policeman.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Was he a commander, captain or sergeant?

WITNESS:   I'm not sure on that point.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Where was he stationed?

WITNESS:   I do not know, but all we knew was that the policemen were coming from KwaMbonambi, but I do not know as to whether Steyn was also from KwaMbonambi.  He is still alive.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Do you have any idea as to who was the station commander at that time at KwaMbonambi?

WITNESS:   I do not know the station commander, but the policeman who came to my place was Vetbang (?).

KHOZA MGOJO:  Is he still alive?

WITNESS:   Yes, he is still alive.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Is he at KwaMbonambi?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Is it Welbang or Vetbang?  So if we want him we can get him at KwaMbonambi?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Steyn is the one who finished them off.  So where did you come across your husband's corpse?

WITNESS:   I saw my husband's corpse just before the funeral, because on a Monday I went to the police station, because they had  confiscated certain items from the house and they gave me his banking card, as well as his bank book.  They told me that they had been given these documents, so I should come back on Tuesday morning and when I got there I came across a certain police called Mthembu, who said we should go to Durban because my husband was at a mortuary in Durban.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Do you know Mthembu's name?

WITNESS:   It was Moses Mthembu.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Is he the one who told you that your husband's corpse was in Durban?

WITNESS:   That is correct, he is the one.

KHOZA MGOJO:  So did you go with Mthembu?

WITNESS:   I first refused to go with him, until such time he asked another lady I was together with and he said the three of us should go to Durban and when we got to Durban there he made us sit in another room and we sat there for quite a long time, until we asked from Mthembu as to when we were going to see the corpses.  Mthembu told me that my husband's corpse was at Avbob in Empangeni.  We came there to Empangeni to have a look at my husband's corpse.  We proceeded to Avbob.  When we got to Avbob, Mthembu told us that we were not allowed to get in whilst the pathologist was busy.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Do you know as to who was the doctor?

WITNESS:   No, he never told us as to who the doctor was.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Did you ever get to see your husband's corpse?

WITNESS:  I saw it just before the funeral.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Which mortuary was he kept at?

WITNESS:   He was kept at Avbob.

KHOZA MGOJO:  He was kept at Avbob.  Did you receive the death certificate?

WITNESS:   Yes, I did.  When I went to the police station to try and get the death certificate, Vetbang said they were not handling my husband's case, but it was being handled by the ANC people.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Who did he say was handling the case in ANC?

WITNESS:  He never explained to me, but he said the matter was being handled by the ANC.

KHOZA MGOJO:  What was written on the death certificate as the cause of death?

WITNESS:   It was written that they had been shot.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Was it ever said as to who shot them?

WITNESS:   As time went on, we were told that he had been shot by Steyn.

KHOZA MGOJO: I shall give other people a chance - other members of the panel to ask you any questions that they may have.  Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mthethwa, do you recall any case, any trial, any inquest, which took place after your husband's death, that you attended or that you knew about?  Do you recall going to any trial or court case or inquest after your husband's death?

WITNESS:   I never went to court and there was no investigation that ensued after my husband's death.  Nothing was ever done, because even when the case was being heard I was never called as a witness.  Then I heard later on that he had been convicted.  He had been sentenced to 18 years.

CHAIRPERSON:  Is that Steyn?

WITNESS:   That is correct, it's Steyn.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact, I recall that case.  I think he is one of the policemen who recently applied for amnesty from the Truth Commission.  As I understand it, his application was turned down.  Dr Magwaza.

PROF MAGWAZA: Ntombikanina, I'll ask you just one question.  Are you working?

WITNESS:   No, I'm not employed.

PROF MAGWAZA:  How do you survive?

WITNESS:   They gave me my husband's pension proceeds when he died.  He was working at Cold Terminal and I was given a lump sum of money.

PROF MAGWAZA:  Are you getting it at the month?

WITNESS:   Yes, I am getting the money per month, together with my child.

PROF MAGWAZA:  Besides that is there no other way that you earn a living?

WITNESS:   No.

PROF MAGWAZA:  It is clear that you are trying to bring up your children.  Some are still in school.  What is your wish?  What is your request that you want this Commission to pay attention to?

WITNESS:   My first wish is that my first-born, who is matriculated - just matriculated last year - he wanted to go to university, but because of the lack of funds I could not send him to university and I would like to be helped with regard to the other children.

PROF MAGWAZA:  I will come back to you, because it does help us, as the Commission, to get full information with regard to the family.  You personally, what standard did you pass?

WITNESS:  I passed standard 6 and I once worked.  I was working at Ngwelezana Hospital.  I was a cleaner.

PROF MAGWAZA:  If you had a wish, what would you wish to do with your life?  Would you like to continue with your studies or further a skill or trade, because we would like also to see you earning your own living?

WITNESS:   I am not clear.  I really do not know what help I could need personally.

PROF MAGWAZA:  Do you wish to work?

WITNESS:   Yes, I have a desire to work.

PROF MAGWAZA: As we have already seen from the other witnesses who gave testimony they ... [break in recording]

PROF MAGWAZA: 5B/0 ... how do they cope with their father's death?