Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, I have taken instructions from the applicant, Mr Zulu, in this matter.  He denies that he was ever responsible for any of the events that you referred to in your evidence in chief.
	For example you have indicated to the Committee that he was a member of a gang.  Mr Zulu denies ever being a member of a gang.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: He should do this because he is applying for amnesty.  He is in prison, his sentence is very long.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: He also denies ever individually, or ever being a part of a gang that raped any girls, any school children or any girls.  What do you have to say about that?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: That is not true.  He knows what I am talking about.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: He also advises me that he was never part of a gang that broke into people's houses, nor did he ever commit any assaults on any persons.

MR LAX: What is your comment on that?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: When this boy whom he referred to as his relative, was killed, he was present.  He is not telling the truth.  He is just trying to get himself acquitted.
	I think it is because of the medicine that he mentioned or referred to earlier on.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: He also advises me that Linda was never a person whom you described as being a person who was disobedient and unruly?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: Linda was a most violent person.  He did not have a conscience at all.  He could do just about anything.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Even though Mr Shangase, you referred to the 26th of December as being a day when people were praying and having a party when the reverend was assaulted, Mr Zulu, the applicant in this matter, instructs me that he was never a part of any group that assaulted the reverend?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: That is not true.  He knows very well what happened there.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: In fact Mr Zulu instructs me that he never at any time, noticed you being present on that evening in question, or the day in question.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: He is just manoeuvring to protect himself because I know the beginning and the end of this matter.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, what is amazing about this particular aspect of your evidence, is that Mr Zulu instructs me that on that particular occasion that you referred to, on the 26th of December, Mr Zulu himself was part of the group, part of the choir group that was singing at this function.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: That is also not true.  He cannot be associated with anything good because he is incapable of doing good.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: He also denies having ever interfered or intimidated Mtembu's son.  What do you say about that?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I am referring to the way which he looked, the way that the Mtembu boy was assaulted, and he mentioned who actually assaulted him.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Where is the Mtembu boy today?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: He stays in the Inanda area, although I am not sure exactly where.  He sometimes visits, once a month or so.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You mentioned as well to the Committee that there were persons who had stopped the buses with a view to interfering with persons that were occupants of the bus.
	Mr Zulu denies having ever been part of those persons that stopped those buses.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: He started by lying from the very beginning when he said he was under an organisation by the name of IFP.  He is still maintaining those lies.  He is an animal.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You referred Mr Shangase to an incident where you went behind or to the side of a butcher shop, where Mr Zulu was hiding.  Mr Zulu admits having been there, but he denies having ever shot at you or any other person.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I am talking about something that happened in my presence.  I am not exactly making presumptions or assumptions.
	This happened and as I explained before the events that took place on that day.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: In fact, it was on that particular day that Thulani Zulu was shot and killed by people whom he alleges to be members of the ANC.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: As I explained before, he connects the death of those old men with the death of his relative.  Those are very separate incidents and they happened at different areas.
	His relative died at Gangala and in the district of Macadeni under Chief Nqopo.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, you also mentioned in your evidence as well that there was an occasion where a poor lady had to witness her little child being raped.  Do you know the name of the lady?

CHAIRPERSON: The one who had to hold the lamp?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I know the surname, but I am not sure of her first name.

MR LAX: Mr Maharaj, is it really necessary to mention it?  Can you imagine the potential harm to this child and the rest of it?  I am just wondering if it is necessary?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it denied by your client?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: If I can just put it this way, does your client deny that any such event ever happened in the area, or does he just deny that he was present there?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: In fact, my apologies, I ought to have posed the question prior to this one, to this witness.  May I please pose that question?

MR LAX: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, did it come to your knowledge that in fact the applicant in this matter, was part of the persons that had raped the child whilst the mother had to hold the lamp?

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Did it come to your knowledge that the applicant in this matter, was one of those persons that had raped the child whilst the mother of the child had to hold the lamp and watch her child being raped?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: This is what they did.  It was their work, they would do this together.  They were always together when they did these activities.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, did it come to your knowledge that the applicant was one of the persons who was present or who actually raped the child while the mother was made to stand by and hold the lamp?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: His name was mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: That is all that Mr Maharaj wanted to know.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you.  Mr Shangase, without mentioning the name of the, the first name or the surname of the lady, would the lady be available to give evidence to that effect before this Committee here on that aspect?

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, I was going to say I think it is unfair for my learned friend to ask an opinion whether she could come and give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but it is also unfair for a witness to give hearsay evidence in implicating an applicant.  You see, what I am saying is, his evidence is merely hearsay about that and now all he is asking is, is the woman who was told to stand by a lamp, would she be available as a witness.
	I don't see how unfair that is?

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, with due respect, I think it is unfair because he can't be in a position to know whether the woman would be available.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's ask it again, is that woman still alive and is she still residing in the area?

MS THABETE: That is a fair question Mr Chairman.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: Yes.