Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

H J P BOTHA: On the 14th I had already taken the decision.  The investigating team were already functioning.  I wouldn't have exposed the people to the investigating team.

MR WILLS: Now I just want to clear something up with you and possibly you might be able to throw some light on it.  When I read my translation of Mr Steyn's affidavit, the application form, he doesn't mention anything about the discussion around elimination occurring at any stage.  The first time he mentions anything about the elimination is he says that on the 16th you informed him of the elimination.

H J P BOTHA: I would suggest that that question be asked to Gen Steyn, I can't answer on his behalf.

MR WILLS: Now another big problem I have with your evidence is that, in the light of the political sensitivity of this whole issue which you were aware of, you killed Ndaba in such a hurry, you told me that you got back from Pretoria, you see that he's in a bad state on the afternoon of the 13th by the morning of the 14th you and possibly Steyn have decided to kill him and by possibly midnight or 1 o'clock that very same day, the Saturday night, he's already dead.  Surely, why did you rush the matter?

H J P BOTHA: That was my decision.

MR WILLS: I'm asking you why you made that decision.

H J P BOTHA: It was a decision which was shaped by the situation at the time.  I can't remember now.  There was no reason to delay it.  Once the decision was taken, you carry it out immediately.

MR WILLS: Your decision must have been partially motivated at least to hide the fact that you had these people from your own senior personnel, not so?

H J P BOTHA: The fact that I had to conceal their presence with me from other members of the South African police had nothing to do with the fact that they were eliminated on the 14th/15th.

MR WILLS: Surely it would be, surely it would get out that you were actually detaining these people.  You indicated that, I think you mentioned that there were people at the safe-house from C20 already.

H J P BOTHA: That's right.

MR WILLS: More people knew.

H J P BOTHA: Right.  There was a position of trust with those people and they worked for us in the past as informers and they wouldn't talk about that, the fact that there were informers.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that you killed these two individuals because they were either so badly injured as a result of their torture and questioning by you and members of your unit, that you could not release them, you could not detain them and you could not even show them to your own superiors.  You were covering up your own malicious deed.

H J P BOTHA: No.

MR WILLS: This is the reason why you didn't discuss the arrests with the most senior policemen in the country, to cover up.  This is the reason why you didn't detain them, because you didn't want a doctor to see them, this is the reason that you could not think of any other alternative in how to deal with these people.  Do you want to comment?

H J P BOTHA: No.

MR WILLS: Just finally, Mr Chairperson, I want to just concentrate on the issue of Ndaba being an informer prior to, your communications with him prior to his arrest on the 7th.  You say the first communication you had with him was some 4 to 6 weeks prior to his arrest on the 7th?

H J P BOTHA: Approximately 6 weeks before the arrest.

MR WILLS: Yes.  You say to him that you met with him on three of four occasions, I think was your evidence.

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now what did he tell you?  Give me information about what he told you on those occasions.

H J P BOTHA: I will once again summarise what he told me.

MR WILLS: And I'm being specific.  Before the arrest.

H J P BOTHA: I already mentioned this yesterday, I testified about it, about the information which he conveyed to me.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I don't want to stifle my learned friend in full flight, but I'm just wondering what this has to do with him.  Mr Ndaba has counsel here appearing for Mr Ndaba and surely.

CHAIRPERSON: It's quite alright, I think he's entitled to.

MR VISSER: May it please you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.  If we haven't covered this ground I'm going to allow you to do it.  If this ground has already been covered, then just think again please.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, sorry I can't remember what the answers are.  If you can just be brief.  Let me be specific, were any names mentioned of senior people in those earlier discussions?

H J P BOTHA: Mr Wills asked me that same question yesterday and I answered it completely.  The names which I mentioned of staff which according to him were involved were Siphiwe Nyanda, Mac Maharaj, Ronnie Kasrils and he also mentioned the names of Pravine Gordhan and Dipak Patel.  And obviously also Shabalala's name was also mentioned.  And you asked me why I didn't mention that in my statement and I told you why not.

MR WILLS: Now what, I think my memory serves me correctly, in that in that interim period prior to his arrest you also testified to the effect that he indicated where certain people were staying and there addresses of safe houses, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, he gave the particulars regarding safe-houses.

MR WILLS: Now surely you would have taken some action in relation to these safe-houses prior to the arrest of Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, and I also testified to that effect.

MR WILLS: And what did you do?

H J P BOTHA: We broke in at one of these places and stole documentation.

MR WILLS: And this was prior to the arrest of Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: No, it was afterwards.

MR WILLS: I'm talking about the period, what you did prior to the arrest.

H J P BOTHA: No, before we didn't enter anywhere.

MR WILLS: What did you do?

H J P BOTHA: We just kept an observation at certain places.

MR WILLS: At which places?

H J P BOTHA: Basically just one place?

MR WILLS: Which place was that?

H J P BOTHA: In Brickhill.

MR WILLS: Now, sorry Mr Chairperson, I'm just about finished.  I've just lost my train of thought.  I wonder if I could have ...

CHAIRPERSON: Take your time.

MR WILLS: If I could have 5 minutes adjournment, simply to consult and also to gather my thoughts?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll stand down for a short while.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

H J P BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Your evidence concerning your activities prior to the arrest of Ndaba on the 7th, you basically conducted observation at one house in Brickhill.

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WILLS: What else did you do?

H J P BOTHA: The basic information which Shabalala gave me was disseminated by me and I tried to corroborate it with other information at my disposal.  I beg your pardon, was the question in respect of Shabalala?

MR WILLS: No, it was in respect of Ndaba.  So basically you didn't take any sort of action to trace anybody?

H J P BOTHA: No.

MR WILLS: Although there was the number 1 or possibly that's overrating Mr Maharaj, possible the number 3 public enemy in the country and you had knowledge of that.  You didn't think it necessary to trace him down, observe him, possibly arrest him?

H J P BOTHA: No.  I testified yesterday why that was not done.

MR WILLS: The same in relation to - well let me just rather get to the point here.  Basically what my point is, is that I submit that had you been aware that these people were in the country prior to the 7th of July, you would have got, at the very least, on a plane, you would have brought this immediately to the attention of senior people in the country.  You wouldn't have just conducted what I could probably loosely describe as a laid-back, routine investigation.  You would have done a lot more.