Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Well I don't know whether he was carrying out instructions or not but all I know is that de Kock used to be the one who used to harass us, me especially. After the meetings he would come during the night and beat me thoroughly, thoroughly, he would beat me. On one occasion he broke the upper flank of my pelvis, on one occasion he broke my ribs.  The very same de Kock.  He used to beat me that the other police would say, "man wag man, dies 'n vroumens".

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now for these beatings, numerous beatings on you, did you ever lay charges?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: I never did, because what was the use? You lay a charge, they write out a file and it ends there. So
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there's no use, you suffer for what you are suffering for, full stop.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now perhaps this may be too simple a question for me to ask you, but I think it has to be asked.  What do you think the reason was for the vigilantes for targeting
the ANC activists?  What was the reason?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: They did not want us to take power.  They realised, in fact the vigilantes were used. They didn't know what they were doing.  Up to today they are still unconscious, I'm sure, where they are, because they don't know what they were doing.  The police were using them and the police were afraid that we are going to take power. Which indeed we took.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified further that every five minutes you were arrested or detained.  Were you ever charged?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Not even once.  I was taken to jail and out without even appearing to court.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you ever told why you were arrested?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: All they used to say to me, look, you are a professional woman, you've got your status, what do you want in these things?  Why don't you leave these people?  Why don't you go and work and leave these people?  You've got your everything but you keep on running after these people, what do you want from them? And I told them that I want freedom. I want to be liberated.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your area there, which were the main political organisations operating at the time?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was there any trace of IFP in the area?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, no further questions.
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ADV DE JAGER: What was the age of the deceased, round about?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: 23, 24, somewhere there.  I'm not sure, but he was a young adult.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The court documents give it as 26, would that be more-or-less his age?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Ja more-or-less the age.

CHAIRPERSON: On the occasion when the deceased died, there was another person who had been assaulted in respect of whom the applicants were convicted of attempted murder.  Did you know anything about that?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: I heard it in court.  I heard in court that somebody was laying a charge against them.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't hear about it on the day of the death of the deceased?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: No.

JUDGE WILSON: I just want to make sure, this man de Kock, you mentioned, he is not the police officer who has just been charged for the number of charges, is he?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: You know, I always wanted to know if he is associated with that one or they are relatives, I don't know.

JUDGE WILSON: He's not the same man, I mean there have been photographs of that man for the last two years.  It's not that man?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: I don't think he's that man.  That one is fat.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Was this de Kock connected to any division of the police, like the Security Branch?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: He was a Security Branch, Special Security
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Branch for politicians. He's based in Uraniaville(?).

UNKNOWN: And the other members whom you have also mentioned who were policemen?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: They were also based there.
NO RE-EXAMINATION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Chairperson the next witness I intend calling Mrs Nomazotshwa Balani.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just spell those names?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: N-O-M-A-Z-O-T-S-H-W-A.  Her surname is Balani, B-A-L-A-N-I.  Chairperson, Mrs Balani will give her evidence in Xhosa. May she be sworn in?

NOMAZOTSHWA BALANI: (sworn states)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mrs Balani, the reason we decided to call you here is the incident that was being recalled in this meeting was what was happening during the period of 1990 at a township called Kuma, near Stilfontein.  We were informed through the evidence by the applicants, three applicants before the Committee this morning that in a attempt to defuse the situation as was existing at the time in Kuma between the youth groups a meeting was at some time held at the offices of Lawyers for Human Rights and at the time, as an employee of Lawyers for Human Rights, you interviewed and you facilitated in fact the meeting between the two groupings.  Chairperson, I did not put it on record, the credentials of Mrs Balani, she's the member of the North West Legislature as well, Chairperson of the Agenda Committee and in the Standing Committee of the Health, in
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the Legislature.  Now Mrs Balani, do you recall these instances?

NOMAZOTSHWA BALANI: Yes I do remember.

<UNKNOWN>: Which were these groupings?

NOMAZOTSHWA BALANI: These groupings there were two, as the lady has just said, some belonged to KUYOC, some they were ANC Youth League. There were quite conflicts between them and thus they came to our office for Lawyers For Human rights seeking help, and we tried to reconcile the two groups due to the tension.  We tried to maintain peace and understanding of development of the organisation, that it's no longer Youth Congress, it's an ANC. We tried to make them understand that, and thereafter the two groups reconciled and then there was peace. On the first day, in the first peace call and thereafter it showed that peace did not prevail again.  Another meeting was called again, it was in Kuma.  We went to that meeting and there still it was tried to reconcile these two groups and there were discussions held. There it seemed as well that there was reconciliation, only found out that it didn't.  The third meeting that I attended, was at night in a creche. It was the very same two groupings.  We tried again to talk to them.  I remember very well there was somebody from the national office of the Youth League and yet they seemed to be reconciling but yet there was no reconciliation.

<UNKNOWN>: Mention has been made here that on the other group we had people that go by the name of Mzimeni Mazwi.  Do you know this person?

NOMAZOTSHWA BALANI: Yes I do.  He was a leader of the other group, which was calling itself KUYOC.

<UNKNOWN>: In these meetings that you facilitated as the
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office of Lawyers for Human Rights, was he part of these meetings?

NOMAZOTSHWA BALANI: Yes he was a part of all these meetings.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the difference between these two groups?  What was the political difference between these two

NOMAZOTSHWA BALANI: What I think happened between these two groups was the fact that a third force involved in these groups, because there was no difference politically, they all called themselves ANC members, but outside the meetings there were these conflicts.

CHAIRPERSON: You talked about this third force. Was it ever identified as to which was the third force?

NOMAZOTSHWA BALANI: It was very difficult to identify the third force at that time because people were being used and people were not being aware of the fact that they were being used, so therefore it was not easy to identify it but as an activist at that time I did realise that there is a force involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.