Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-18

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: We saw Mr Zuma.

MR SANDI: Do you still remember that date on which you visited Mr Zuma?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: I think the days are there in front of you in the letters.

MR SANDI: Is that in March?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes, it was in March.

MR SANDI: Did Mr Zuma come back to you at the end of March, because we are now in April?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: No my brother has not yet visited him but Mr Zuma is still in the offices in Transkei.

MR SANDI: Are there any other people who were together with Mncedisi since there are people who are coming back from exile? Were there any people who could say they know him?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: No nobody ever came from exile and informed us that they know about Mncedisi.

MR SANDI: Is the person who talked to Mr Zuma the only person who knows about him?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: There is another one, Shakespeare has seen him.  The person who knows my brother is also said to be in
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this photograph but I don't know.  Mr Zuma says to us there is a person on this photograph who knows my brother.

MR SANDI: What is your request if I can ask you?  Do request that the Commission should find out about your brother?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Do you want to say that you are mandating us that we should write or phone Mr Zuma and establish about how far he has gone with his investigations?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes I do.

MR SANDI: Is there anything that you'd like us to do in connection with this?  Or perhaps can I say, would you add something during this Commission presentation or would you like your brother to say something about this, or do you think that you have said enough?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: What I can add is, on the 8th of April, I received a telephone call there at home, which was asking if there was anybody who came to our place.  They said there was somebody who came from Johannesburg who tried to find out about our family and our surname, but they discovered that nobody knows about this surname.  The person who phoned said she knew about this surname and then she said she's going to phone at Zone 2 to find out of Mbongani knows me. When she phoned at Zone 2, she didn't find anybody and then she looked up in the directory and got the family reflected in there.  She phoned the number and then she could communicate with me.
 She explained that she doesn't know me, and then she said she is Veli Tswaclina and said there was a young man who was looking for me, during the Easter weekend. But there was nobody who knew this surname.  So I explained that I 
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will try and establish if I can get information about this surname so that I can give her the information that she needed.  
 This person gave me the telephone number where I should phone, I tried to phone this number, I was informed that this person who said that I must phone had left for Johannesburg.  I gave the information that I am Nobesuthu because this person said he was asking after us.  The reply that I got is that this person had left and then when he phones they will tell him about what has happened and give him the information that I have just given her.
 On the 10th, when we came back from King Williamstown I received a telephone call, it was from Unit 13, this person said to me I should please phone Monde at 9 o'clock, and he said I must not miss that time.  I did as instructed and it was nine in the evening.  I phoned at 9 o'clock as instructed. I found this person at 9 o'clock and I gave him my particulars.  At the same time he answered and said he is the person who was looking for us.  I informed him that I was responding to the message that he was looking for us.
 He asked me what I last heard about my brother.  I told him that we didn't hear anything about him. He told us that he died.

MR SANDI: Did this happen when you went to the office of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes. When he said so I said I'm shocked because I don't know what to do.  Again I informed him that I've taken the information and presented it to the Truth Commission and then he said, okay that does not matter.

MR SANDI: Does he say he died.

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.
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MR SANDI: Did he explain how he died and why?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: He said to me he died.  He asked if there were any people who came and informed me about this and I said no.  He said he was going to send people so that they can give me full information. There was no further information about that.

MR SANDI: Was there anything further after this telephonic communication, is there any information further than that which told under what circumstances he died?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: No, nobody came again.  The other thing is that this person was always referring to Vedge and I asked., who is this Vedge.  He said no Vedge is another name which I know Mncedisi as.

MR SANDI: Do you know this Vedge that he was always mistaking for your brother?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: No I don't.  At this stage I would like he Commission to listen to this and also that you should tell us what to do?  We would like the Commission to establish how our brother died and where he was buried.

MR SANDI: I'm certain that you will realise that the Commission will have to make an investigation ...(end of tape 18).......Is there anything you would like to say before we can carry forward?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: I would like any type of assistance that we can get because I would like just to make sure that  he really died.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any other questions?

DR BORAINE: Mrs Sabatana I have two questions.  Your brother had a code name, what was that code name?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: His name was Big Boss.
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DR BORAINE: So he was known in the camp as Big Boss?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Okay, now somebody gave you information that there was a rumour that there was a fight in the camp and that he was killed in that fight.  Is that so? Can you remember who told you that?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes I can.  The person who came to us and gave the information and told us that there was a big fight in the camp, although he was not present during the fight. This information was being kept as a secret because I was not supposed to know about this.  This person says he was also looking for Mncedisi because he knew his family he felt that he should make enquiries.  When he asked what had happened about him because he had disappeared, he was informed that there was a big fight and Mncedisi was killed during this, and this person is now in Western Germany, and he was here in February.  So I asked this person, because he said, when he was last here when I asked him what happened he said he didn't want me to know about this. They talked secretly about it, but I gave myself a chance to go and visit this person in February.  I called him and said, "Luvuyo, can you really tell me what happened to Mncedisi?", and he said, "Aunt Mncedisi died but I learned this I should not give this information to you", but what I know is that he is in Western Germany.  But this was known before that he is in Western Germany, that is why I have come here to the Truth Commission because I am not certain of what happened.

DR BORAINE: Just the last question.  When we asked you what we could do for you, you mentioned that you really want to know how he died, in what circumstances, and where he is buried. That's right?
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PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.