Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

MR BERGER: Isn't it that the, as you call it, big mistake has been corrected so that your evidence falls into line with the evidence of your co-applicants?

JACK MBELE: This was corrected because my lawyer pointed this mistake before the Committee, he pointed this mistake that was committed by me and it had to be rectified.

MR BERGER: Before the meeting a week before the attack were there meetings before that at which attacks were discussed?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: After the meeting of the 10th there was another meeting on the Sunday.  Do you remember that meeting?

JACK MBELE: I do not know about a meeting on Sunday in the hostel.

MR BERGER: What was Themba Khoza's position at that time?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, let me explain this clearly to you.  I did not base my hope on the IFP, I did not actually follow who was who.  I just went into the hostel for accommodation.  I did not even consider going to the rallies even though I was a member.

MR BERGER: So you were not particularly concerned with the aims and objectives of the IFP, would that be correct?

JACK MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: On the 14th June there was a meeting in the hostel addressed by Themba Khoza and a Mr Dlamini.  You do know who Themba Khoza is, am I right?

JACK MBELE: I know him but the meeting that you've just referred to I do not know.

MR BERGER: Do you know Mr Dlamini?

JACK MBELE: I do not know Mr Dlamini, I know a Mr Mvelase who is working at the Vereeniging office.

MR BERGER: Why do you mention Mr Mvelase when I asked you about Mr Dlamini?

JACK MBELE: I'm saying to you these people you must remember they have many names.  You might be referring to Dlamini and I would be knowing him as Mvelase on the other hand, that's why I'm saying to you I do not know of a Dlamini, I know of a certain Mvelase who used to come with Themba Khoza in the hostel.  Maybe we're talking of the same person.

MR BERGER: And Mr Mvelase, what was his position?

JACK MBELE: He worked at the offices of the KwaZulu Government or IFP, I do not know, it didn't concern me as to who he was and what his position was.

MR BERGER: You attended a meeting which was addressed by Themba Khoza and Mr Mvelase?

JACK MBELE: I do not remember a meeting that was addressed by Mr Mvelase and Mr Themba Khoza in my presence.

MR BERGER: You said that Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Mvelase used to come to the hostel.  What did they used to come to do if not to address meetings?

JACK MBELE: They came to see the leaders of the hostel and the committee members and I've never heard that the committee telling us as to the visit of Themba Khoza and them.  They would come on Saturdays, sit behind closed doors, discuss their issues and I would not say it was a meeting that was held and I would then I would be invited to such a meeting.  I've never attended such a meeting.

MR BERGER: Who were the leaders in the hostel that Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Mvelase used to meet?

JACK MBELE: They used to visit Vanana Zulu, Mr Mtwana and Khumalo.  I think he's also a member of the committee, his name is Khumalo and Mr Mthembu as well.  He would be in the meeting with them.

MR BERGER: That's Mr Moses Mthembu, am I right?

JACK MBELE: That's him.

MR BERGER: The leader of the hostel was Mr Vanana Zulu, Mtwana Zulu?

JACK MBELE: Yes he was the leader of the hostel, of the people who lived in the hostel but Mr Mthembu was responsible for the employees who resided in the hostel but Mr Mtwana was the overseer of the whole hostel.

MR BERGER: And Mr Mtwana Zulu was also in control of the weapons in the hostel, am I right?

JACK MBELE: I did not know that.  Damarra was the person responsible for that and this other one who was called Speshla, but Damarra was the main man handling all such issues.

MR BERGER: Would you agree with the statement that nothing of significance would take place at kwaMadala Hostel without the consent of Mr Vanana Zulu?

JACK MBELE: I would say so yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, when you move on to another aspect let us know so that we can take a tea adjournment?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, this would be an appropriate point to take an adjournment.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbele, you are reminded you are still under oath.

JACK MBELE: (s.u.o.)  That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: (continues)	 Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mbele, would you agree that Mr Vanana Zulu was present during the attack in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: I don't want to say he was present or he was not present, I did not see him on that day totally.

MR BERGER: You can't deny that he was present?

JACK MBELE: I would not deny, I would not agree.

MR BERGER: You see, because you were in Bafukeng Street and Mr Vanana Zulu was seen in Bafukeng Street and so is it not the case that you are actually aware that Mr Vanana Zulu was in Boipatong at the time of the attack?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I'm telling the truth here.  If ever Vanana Zulu was present, I would mention his name.  I would mention that he was present.  I did not see him on that day.

MR BERGER: But you saw him at the stadium just before you left for Boipatong, did you not?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger I never saw Mr Vanana Zulu on that day whether at the stadium at Boipatong, even the following day I did not see him.

MR BERGER: When did you see Mr Vanana Zulu for the first time after the attack?

JACK MBELE: It was after quite a long time, I think a month.

MR BERGER: And where did you see Mr Vanana Zulu a month after the attack?

JACK MBELE: I met him in the morning when we were taking a shower.

MR BERGER: Did you live nearby Mr Vanana Zulu?

JACK MBELE: No it's quite a distance from where he lived.

MR BERGER: Was there only one area where you could take a shower?

JACK MBELE: Yes there were communal showers for ladies and for men.

MR BERGER: After the attack the hostel was sealed by police am I right?

JACK MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: For how long was the hostel sealed?

JACK MBELE: Yes it was sealed for two if not three weeks.  Maybe even a month, I am not sure but it was quite a long time.  It was sealed for a long time really.  I would not want to commit myself as to the time, I can't remember.

MR BERGER: And during the time that the hostel was sealed I take it that there were a number of meetings of residents of the hostel to discuss your situation and to discuss the police investigation into the massacre?

JACK MBELE: That is correct, Sir.

MR BERGER: I take it in the week following the massacre there were meetings and the week after that there were meetings, am I right?

JACK MBELE: Yes there were meetings held even though I'm not sure as to whether it was a week after the attack or the second week after the attack but there were meetings held.

MR BERGER: There were a number of meetings because you had to decide as a group how you were going to react to the police investigation, am I right?

JACK MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: And the leaders of the hostel would have addressed these meetings?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, after the Boipatong incident, let me say, if I'm not mistaken on the 18th Themba Khoza arrived.  There were still other meetings that were held but these meetings would not be addressed by a person who was known to be a member of the committee.  Anybody would stand up and speak.  Now the meeting would be disorderly, everybody would be talking, everybody.  But the main issue that would be discussed in such a meeting would be working together with policemen.

MR BERGER: And during all of those meetings in the first week, in the second week after the attack, Mtwana Zulu was not there?

JACK MBELE: I do not remember whether he was present or whether he was not present.