Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-06-30

MR VAN RENSBERG: And he was a white?  Becausehe was white?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: He was a farmer.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Did you attack or plan toattack any black farmers?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: If they had defended the interestof that government, formed Commando Units, participated in those Units.

MR VAN RENSBERG: The question is did you planto attack any black farmers as well?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: No, at that stage, no.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes.   I put it to you thatthe sole reason why you attacked that farm was because Mr Swanepoel was whiteand not because he was AWB or anything of those other reasons?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, but I did not know Mr Swanepoelpersonally, where I can say I have attacked him because he was a white.  I didnot have any personal vendetta against Mr Swanepoel, and then I carried outthe operation not because Mr Swanepoel, I know him, he is a white ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: That is not the question,you are being very long winded, the question is didn't you carry out the attackon Mr Swanepoel because he was a white farmer?  It is a very simple question.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, we attacked Mr Swanepoelas a white farmer, as a farmer.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Okay, now if I read between the lines and also your statements contained inthe affidavit, it was part of APLA's policy at the time of which you were amember, to actually force the government of the day into submitting land andto take it away from white farmers and give it to the blacks, was that partof your struggle?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Can you repeat your question.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Was it part of APLA's policyat the time, by carrying out these attacks, to persuade or put pressure on thegovernment of the day, to take farms away from the white farmers and give itto the blacks?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: At the time, do you agreethat Mr Nelson Mandela had been released already, I think three years beforethe attack, is that correct?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I am a member of  PAC and Iam sorry to say that I had nothing to do with ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Just answer the question MrThobejane.  Answer the question, I am sure he is still getting to something,he is laying a basis for further questions to follow.  Mr Mandela had been releasedat that time, yes or no?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, and at the time therewas already, I am talking about April 1993, there was already talk about a fulldemocratic election in this country, is that not so?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensberg, we know whatyou are getting at here, but we also know that APLA only issued instructionsto stop operations I think it was on the 16th, I might be wrong of the dateof January 1994, which instructions took some time to filter through to thepeople on the ground.  So if you take a look at the APLA submissions, the party,they were still operative in the struggle in 1993, it was only in January 1994that they actually called a cease-fire.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson,that is actually where I was going.  Mr Thobejane, can you confirm that at onestage the APLA High Command actually gave instructions for you cadres, to stopattacking the white farmers?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: By that time, I was in jail,1994, I was in jail.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Hm, so you never receivedthose instructions?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I only knew about them fromsomebody else, not directly from a member of the High Command.

MR VAN RENSBERG: I see.  The reason why Iam asking these questions Mr Thobejane is the victims in this specific instance,want to have the assurance that if you are granted amnesty, this kind of thingwill not happen again.  What is your response to that?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I won't attack them again, ifhe is asking for me alone.

MR VAN RENSBERG: What is the instructionsfrom APLA High Command that has reached your ears?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Today, PAC is part of the governmentof the day, so I don't think they can issue such instructions again, you know,because they are in Parliament themselves.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Mr Chairman, if I can justtake instructions for one second please.    Thank you Mr Chairman, there isonly one question I still want to ask.  Mr Thobejane, do you know a person bythe name of James Baloyi?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I know him, yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Can you please tell thishearing how you know him and where his whereabouts are at the moment?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I don't know where he is atthe moment, but what I know about him is that he is a member of the PAC andthe late Prince had stayed by his house and he was part of our Unit.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Are you saying that JamesBaloyi was also part of your assault group?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Jameson Baloyi?

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Not part of the assault group.

CHAIRPERSON: He said that the late Princestayed at his place.

MR VAN RENSBERG: At his place.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Are you referring to TekwaniBaloyi or Jameson Baloyi?

SISI KHAMPEPE: James Baloyi, are there manyJames Baloyi's you know?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Jameson Baloyi.

CHAIRPERSON: Jameson Baloyi.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Jameson Baloyi?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I know Jameson Baloyi, Princehad stayed at his house.

MR VAN RENSBERG: That is in the same regionwhere you also had your hiding place, isn't that correct?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: And this Jameson Baloyi,in fact knew of the eminent attack?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: No, he was not in the AttackingUnit.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson,I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Van Rensberg.  MsMtanga, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have anyre-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, do you have anyquestions?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank youChairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Thobejane, thatconcludes your testimony, you may stand down.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED