Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

CHAIRPERSON: I think just for purposes of record, it is already on record, the Committee is the same as it was introduced earlier this morning, namely Messrs Sibanyoni and Lax and myself, Judge Miller and the legal representative is Mr Ngubane, appearing for the applicant, and Ms Thabete is the Evidence Leader.  Mr Ngubane, you are going to be calling the applicant?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Cele, can you please try to raise your voice a little bit, you don't have to fear anything, just relax.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, if you could just sit a little bit closer to the microphone, not very close, but a little bit closer.

MR LAX: Just speak now so we can hear.  Mr Cele, just say a few words, can you hear us?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.

MR LAX: That is better, thank you.

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Am I going to be led or ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane is going to be asking you some questions.

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Okay.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Cele, is it correct that you were born on the 29th of July 1971?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were you born in the Ixopo area in the Province of kwaZulu Natal?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And did you grow up in Ixopo until round about June 1993, you were still a man of Ixopo?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Do you still reside in that area to the present moment?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that at some stage you were a member of the African National Congress?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Can you indicate to us at approximately what stage did you become a member of the African National Congress?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: From 1990.

MR NGUBANE: Are you still a member of the African National Congress?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: During the period 1990 - 1993, did you at any stage become a member of the Self Defence Unit in your area?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, I became one in 1992.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, how did you become a member?  Did you complete a formal application form or did you just join without there being an application form?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Mr Ntela who is now deceased as well as Mr Reggie Radebe who is also late, arrived in the area and we joined the SDU.  Sometimes we would also travel to the ANC office in Pietermaritzburg.

MR NGUBANE: When Mr Ntela and Mr Radebe arrived, did they make you complete certain documents so as to be members of the SDU?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: There were something that we did fill in, although I don't remember whether those were application forms or not.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Richard Reggie Radebe, did you know him as holding a certain portfolio in the African National Congress?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.  He was the Deputy Chairperson of the Midlands branch of the ANC.

MR NGUBANE: Right, they came to you in 1992, did you say so?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: It was in 1992, that is what I remember.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  When you were made to complete certain forms and you joined the Self Defence Unit, was the Self Defence Unit structure already in existence in your place, or you were amongst the first groups that joined the Self Defence Unit?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: We were the first people to join the SDU.

MR NGUBANE: Was it explained to you, the purpose of the Self Defence Unit, of the formation of the Self Defence Unit?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, it was explained.  The purpose of forming that SDU was to protect the community against our enemies, and at that time or enemy was the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Right, can you explain why you say that Inkatha were enemies of the community at that time?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, I can explain.  The area was predominantly ANC and there were no ANC members in the area, they would just come to attack in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think there was a mistake in the translation, it was said that the area was predominantly ANC but there weren't many ANC people in the area, I think the last one was meant to be IFP, is that correct?

INTERPRETER: Yes, that is correct, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  You said there were no Inkatha people in the area and they used to come to the area to attack, is that right?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, that is correct.  Can I continue?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: They would come to attack because they wanted the area to become an IFP stronghold.

MR NGUBANE: Had you experienced a number of attacks in the area?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes,  for a number of times.  Sometimes they would attack just fire shots and return to wherever they came from.

MR NGUBANE: During the attacks, were there any people killed or any properties destroyed?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.  It sometimes  happened, there was one Mbele boy who was killed.  A boy of about five years old.  Can I continue?

MR NGUBANE: Right.

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: That was not the end of it.  Previously there had been an attack and Sandile Biyase had been killed.

MR NGUBANE: When you joined the SDU's, did you receive any form of training?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.  There was some form of training that we received.  It was something basic, just on how to identify the enemy or on how to protect yourself from the enemy.

MR NGUBANE: Were you trained in any way in methods of physical contact with the enemy?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: With regards to fighting with the enemy, we received something of a crash course.

MR NGUBANE: Was it explained to you what was meant by defending the community, would you wait to be attacked, or would you perhaps attack in order to avert an impending attack?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: We would wait for an attack, but it would largely depend on what the situation was at the time.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  Let's come to June 1993, in your application you said that you are applying for amnesty in relation to a murder matter that occurred in June 1993, is that correct?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: That took place in Noqwega area.  Is that area in Ixopo?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Was the deceased there Lindela Zulu?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: That is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Before he could be killed, did you know him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, I knew him well.

MR NGUBANE: Was he a member, before he could be killed, was he a member of Inkatha or was he a member of the Self Defence Unit?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: As a person who was from that area, as I mentioned before, the area was predominantly ANC.  He was therefore one of our members.
	When Sandile died, he left the  area and went to reside in town and it later transpired that he had defected to the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Did he, when he was still residing in the area, attend camps which you held as the Self Defence Unit?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.  He would sometimes attend camps, but not regularly because he was employed.
	One time when he attended the camp, he had along a dog.

MR NGUBANE: What is the significance of the dog, can you explain?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I cannot say because he just had this dog with him, which was something which was not allowed at the camp.

MR NGUBANE: Was his behaviour on that evening or during that night, consistent with the discipline of the Self Defence Unit?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: No, I do not think it was in line because if we were attacked or if there was an attack, the dog would probably bark and that would alert our enemies.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, besides the dog, the deceased behaviour, Lindela Zulu, was it disruptive in any manner during that night?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: He was very restless on that night.  We tried to calm him down, to make him sit down.