Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-02

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I never met any SDUs in Mdantsane but where we were staying at the Section 7 the people that we met there knew that we were armed but they did not know as to what purpose but they knew that we ANC members and they were ANC members as well but we never supplied them with any details.

ADV SIBANYONI: By the way, who did you give the firearms to in Cape Town, what's the name of the person again?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It's Comrade Dalasile.

ADV SIBANYONI: Did he participate in any formal structure of SDU?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes he was a guerrilla that was trained inside the country and he also had close connection with the SDUs and thus we used him as the one who would keep the weapons.

ADV SIBANYONI: The policeman who was inside the police station at the charge office, was it possible he was injured after you had instructed him to run away?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I do not think that that is possible because I guaranteed that he can run away, he won't get hurt, seeing that the safe can't be opened he can just run away.

ADV SIBANYONI: As you were running away, you were firing in the air.  How many of you were firing?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I cannot be sure about that but I shot as well in the air in the direction of the gate, running towards the gate but I believe that all of us were shooting at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: In which direction?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We were running towards the gate and shooting in the air.

CHAIRPERSON: All of you shooting in the air?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The firearm that was in my possession was facing upward and I was shooting in the air and I saw my companions doing the same, there was no target in front of us but it was just a gate that we were running towards.  We were shooting to show that we had won the battle, we found at least what we had come there for, our mission was accomplished which was coming to take the firearms of which we got.

ADV SIBANYONI: All your companions were just around you and you were aware that none of them was busy shooting the policeman who was inside the charge office when you were retreating?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: That I did not notice.

ADV SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, I just want to ask one question, that statement that you made on page 10 and 11 of the record, the typed version is on page 8 and 9.  Is it true that you wrote this statement on the 16th October 1999?  On page 10 and 11 or 12?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes I wrote it then.

CHAIRPERSON: And the contents of that statement is what you believe to be the true version?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes I do, it was the absolute truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, that's all.  Are there any other witnesses that he'd like to call on his behalf?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no other witnesses, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I may need the direction of the Committee on this.  I thought I would call Mr - just bear with me Chairperson?  I thought I would call Mr Zamile Matiso who was injured but in the light of it not being an issue as to whether he was injured or not, none of the applicants seems to concede that he may have been injured.  I do not think it would be necessary for me call unless the Committee may require his evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let us take the lunch break and I want to think about that, I don't want to mislead you or whatever.  Let me think about that.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll tell you during the course of lunch break.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, your enquiry for which you sought guidance, was that intended to find out whether we are willing to grant one of the policemen victim status?

MR MAPOMA: Well not necessarily Chairperson, I just thought that it's almost common cause that he was injured.  I thought that perhaps the Committee may want his version perhaps.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, that I must leave in your hands whether you want to put that version.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is to - if it was for the purpose of whether you wanted to know if we're going to declare him a victim, in that case yes we would consider him a victim.

MR MAPOMA: Yes that was mainly, that was my feeling as well, Chairperson, that he ought to be considered as a victim and then on the merits which is my view, Chairperson, that his version will not take the matter any further.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other witnesses?

MR MAPOMA: I have no other witness Chairperson, I'm not calling him then.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any submissions to make?

MR MAPOMA: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with Mr Nompozolo that in Frankfort issue, that the offences involved there would be attempted murder, possession of, unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition, robbery of two firearms and ammunition, malicious injury to property and pointing a firearm?

MR MAPOMA: I agree Chairperson with those offences except for the offence of attempted murder.  He seems to qualify it to a specific policeman.  I would say it must be an attempted murder to whoever might have been injured there or might have been shot at there being a policeman, not necessarily the policeman whom this guy positively says was shot at in the light of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how many policemen were injured?

MR MAPOMA: From our investigation there is one policeman who was injured, in fact it was the policeman Mr Matiso who was inside and the one who was outside was - he escaped unhurt.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And in the Mdantsane incident, two counts of attempted murder, theft of two firearms and ammunition, malicious injury to property and unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition.

MR MAPOMA: Yes I agree with that, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, we don't want to hear any argument.  We will reserve judgment on this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your next matter?

MR MAPOMA: My next matter is Xolisa Mkonwana

MR NOMPOZOLO: Sorry Mr Chairperson, may he be excused then?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED