Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR STEWART: You see Mr Ndlovu, what Mudla Induna will say in the event that it becomes necessary is that although the instruction may have come from him through Jack Gomede - he doesn't remember that, but he didn't see you to discuss it or confirm it until after the incident, and not before.  Now that's his recollection, I don't know - you have the opportunity to comment on that, what your recollection is, whether you have a different recollection or whether you're not sure.  But that's what he says, and I can repeat it to you if you haven't followed me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Stewart I haven't followed you.  Will Mr Lethal say that Mr Ndlovu was never instructed by him initially to go and kill Mr Msomi, and that he only was advised by Mr Ndlovu after Mr Ndlovu had killed Mr Msomi?  Is that Mr Lethal's version?

MR STEWART: No not quite.  Mr Lethal's version is that he doesn't have a recollection of giving the instruction through Jack, although it's possible, but according to his recollection he did not give the instruction or confirm the instruction in person with Mr Ndlovu, that the meeting with Mr Ndlovu in person did not take place until after the event.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your comments on that Mr Ndlovu?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chairperson I do not have a gun. Secondly Jack doesn't own a gun.  Therefore where would we have obtained the guns which we used to kill Mr Msomi if he doesn't have knowledge of it.

MR STEWART: Mr Ndlovu this Mpumlani Mshengo that I spoke about earlier, he was involved in this incident am I right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR STEWART: What exactly was his involvement?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I received the 9mm gun from him.  He gave me the gun to go kill this person.

MR STEWART: And Mshengo knew the purpose of giving you the gun?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes he did know it very well.

MR STEWART: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart.  Mr Ngubane do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairperson.  	Now Mr Ndlovu you spoke about the incident when you shot at the taxi drivers, do you remember?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Let us not call them taxi drivers because I attacked one taxi on that day.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, well did the taxi have the drivers or just ordinary passengers?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: There were passengers at the taxi.

MR NGUBANE: Can you recall more or less in which year this incident took place?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I don't remember clearly, but I think it was around 1990 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ndlovu could you please speak a little louder so the people can hear what you're saying?.

MR NGUBANE: I'm indebted to you Mr Chairman.  And Mr Ndlovu this incident, did it take place at a spot known as the First Bus stop or Taxi Stop in Mpumalanga?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: No, there's a road going or moving across Unit 4.  This happened at a spot called Kentucky.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  So the shooting that took place at a place where the taxi was shot at the First Bus stop, do you bear any knowledge of that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: If I remember correctly, the people who were involved there were Jack Gomede and his group, although I did not know who they were, but I do remember the incident.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know perhaps who had instructed them to shoot the people at that First Bus stop, or don't you know?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I do not have knowledge thereof.

MR NGUBANE: The incidents that occurred in Mpumalanga that you have mentioned; the killing of Msomi and this shooting of a taxi, are they the only incidents that you were involved in where people were killed here in Mpumalanga?

MR STEWART: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You see we don't know whether somebody was killed in the taxi incident.

MR NGUBANE: I stand corrected.  Where there was a shooting where people might have been killed or injured?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I did not attack anywhere else unless there was fighting between the IFP and ANC youths.  I will be involved in such incidents but I and my group have not been involved in other incidents.

MR NGUBANE: One of the applicants here if I'm not mistaken, it's either Khumalo or Hlongwane, in the papers says that there were instructions to clean the areas known as Unit 9 and Unit 8 in Mpumalanga.  Do you know anything about those instructions to clean those areas?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair, as he already explained that there were different groups.  We as people who stayed in Woody Glen, Mrs Thlontlo didn't want us to involve ourselves with the youth involved with Mr Nkeshle, so I do have knowledge of what happened in that group.

MR NGUBANE: When actually did you become a policeman in the - in which year did you become a policeman?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: At the end of 1988.

MR NGUBANE: Was it before the official opening of the police station here in Mpumalanga?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I do not remember when it was officially opened.

MR NGUBANE: But do you remember the ceremony relating to the official opening of the police station there in Mpumalanga?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR NGUBANE: Where you present here in Mpumalanga when there was an official ceremony to open the police station?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes Chair.

MR NGUBANE: And do you know that a lot of havoc happened in Mpumalanga on that particular day where various houses were attacked - by the police in conjunction with Inkatha?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I wouldn't say that it was the police in collaboration with Inkatha because I do not have exact knowledge.  The police were in front and the youth just went out and started attacking people's houses.  I therefore wouldn't specifically say that the police were in front or working with these people who were attacking, but they were in front.

MR NGUBANE: Were you also part of that convoy?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair because there was a large number of people it is not possible for them to have attacked - all of them to have attacked those houses, but I think it was a few houses that were attacked.  I did not partake in the attack.

MR NGUBANE: Were there any specific instructions from anyone to attack the houses and injure people on that particular day?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I will be telling a lie, I do not know about it.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt do you have any questions?

MR HEWITT: Yes Mr Chairman. These soldiers that you say you were with, about 12 of them, when you fired at people coming out of a school, were they white soldiers?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair when you say they're from there, you mean that they were there, they were already there?  You should actually explain that they were already there, the white soldiers.

MR HEWITT: But they were white?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes they were white.

MR HEWITT: And this was in Ndwedwe?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Do you know what unit they belonged to?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I can't quite remember, I think it was 63 if not 32.  I can't quite remember, it's somewhere there, I did not take that into consideration.

MR HEWITT: 63 or 32?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Battalion?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Mpshe do you have any questions?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ndlovu, the shooting of the taxi's, remember when you said you had to shoot at the taxi's because they were seen to be collaborating with the comrades, do you remember that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I hear you mention the police, I'm referring to the taxi's that you shot at.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes the taxi's not the police.