Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR VISSER: Alright.  In fairness to you, can I ask you this, it seems as if you weren't terribly interested in the politics of the time, would that be correct?

MS NGONO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Fine, then I won't ask you any further questions about that.  You see the only reason why things had become, I think your translation was tight, or as the Chairman said bad for MK members in Lesotho, I'm putting it to you, was because the military government in Lesotho was well-disposed to the then South African Government and they worked together to try to locate and arrest MK members and that's why things were tight for them, or bad for them, do you agree with that?

MS NGONO: I agree with you.

MR VISSER: From your own knowledge how many times was Mbulelo arrested by any police force?

MS NGONO: I heard for the first time that he was arrested in March.

MR VISSER: You hadn't heard of him being arrested in the Transkei for example?

MS NGONO: I did not hear because Mbulelo would not tell me that he was arrested, but he would tell me that he escaped from something, but he would not explain or give me the details.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Do you know on how many occasions Mbulelo escaped from something, as you put it?

MS NGONO: When I arrived in January, he told me that he was about to die, I must study and then he disappeared in September and when he came back he told me that since he did not die at that time, he will never die again, because he had this narrow escape.

MR VISSER: But he didn't tell you what the narrow escape was?

MS NGONO: No, because he was very secretive and he was loyal to his organisation.

MR VISSER: And you didn't ask him?

MS NGONO: No, because he would not trust me even though I am his sister.  He would not tell me the ...(indistinct) about the organisation.

MR VISSER: Where exactly did you see Mbulelo in 1988, where was it that you saw him?

MS NGONO: He came to me at school

MR VISSER: Where was this school, in Maseru or where?

MS NGONO: In Masithe?

MR VISSER: How far is that from Maseru, is it some distance away or is it close to Maseru?

MS NGONO: It is some distance away, on the way to Mafikeng.

MR VISSER: So you say you go to the offices of the United Nations, I take it that's in Maseru?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you asked them to assist you to look for Mbulelo?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you know what Mbulelo's MK name was?

MS NGONO: Yes, I knew.

MR VISSER: Well will you tell us what it was?

MS NGONO: Msizwa and K K .

MR VISSER: Msizwa and K K.  When did you go to the United Nations Offices?

MS NGONO: In March but I cannot remember the date.

MR VISSER: Now I'm going to ask you this.  Why did you go to them in March 1988?  What made you go to them in March 1988?

MS NGONO: It is because I knew by then that he was arrested.

MR VISSER: Who told you that?  I'm sorry, is that because the sister told you that he was arrested, is that the reason?  The sister of Mbece told you that he was arrested.

MS NGONO: Yes, she told me that he was arrested.

MR VISSER: And that's why you went to the United Nations offices, am I understanding your evidence correctly?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Why didn't you go to the police?

MS NGONO: It is because Lindelwa went to the police and she asked for a record of the people that were arrested on that date and Mbulelo's name was not on that record.

MR VISSER: Now did Lindelwa tell you that?  How do you know that?

MS NGONO: There were other cadres that were around in Lesotho and they would tell me.

MR VISSER: So you can't remember who told you that, is that what you're saying?

MS NGONO: His name was Mamawa then, but I do not know his real name.

MR VISSER: On the strength of what he told you, you decided not to go to the police, the Lesotho police, but to the United Nations, is that what your evidence is?

MS NGONO: They said that they would send Lindelwa to go and look for him at a police station in Lesotho and I must go to the United Nations Offices.

MR VISSER: So was it then because of that agreement that you went to the United Nations offices, is that the reason why you went there?

MS NGONO: They said it would only be a mother that was able to go to the police and look for her child, so I must not go there because the police were cruel, they were able to kill the members of the family, so they did not want me to go to the police.

MR VISSER: Do you know a person by the name of Buthelezi?  Well, if I ask you that of course you're going to say yes, because there are plenty of Buthelezis.  I don't know his name, but his initials are B B Buthelezi and there's a document of confidential comments which he made which is at page 53.  Do you know who that person is?

MS NGONO: I do not know that person.

MR VISSER: Oh, I see.  ...(indistinct)  I see on the last page, I missed that, my client has just pointed it out.  Busisiwe Benedikatha Buthelezi, do you know him, Major?

MS NGONO: No, I do not know that person.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, if I may just correct?  This Busisiwe name, is a female name, it's a Xhosa feminine gender name, this must be a female, this Major, just for the record.

MR VISSER: Well, Chairperson, now we know that as well.  Do you know such a lady person with that name?

MS NGONO: No, I do not know her.

MR VISSER: I'm indebted to my Learned Friend, Mr Mapoma.  Now I want to proceed to page 37 and paragraph 13.  Where were you in 1990?

MS NGONO: I was at home.

MR VISSER: Will you tell us where that is?

MS NGONO: Port Elizabeth.

MR VISSER: Where is the Louis le Grange police station?  In which town is that situated?

MS NGONO: In Port Elizabeth.

MR VISSER: Now you didn't give any evidence about that, but it's in this document which professes to be your statement, that a certain Bulelo visited you at home and he told you something, now is that correct or not that such a person visited you in 1990?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is correct.  That person came to see my mother.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Were you there?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you hear what was said by Bulelo to your mother?

MS NGONO: This person did not want us to hear what they were talking about with my mother, but when this person left, my mother told us that this person had Mbulelo's photo and this photo was shown to my mother and he did not want us to see this photo, he said that Mbulelo was arrested and he was in the Transkei.

MR VISSER: In 1990?

MS NGONO: Yes, it was in 1990.

MR VISSER: Mbulelo was in the Transkei in 1990, is that your impression of...?

MS NGONO: In the Transvaal.

MR VISSER: Oh.  As far as you are concerned therefore, can we accept that as far as your information that you got from your mother is concerned, Mbulelo Ngono was in the Transvaal in 1990, is that what you're telling us?

MS NGONO: According to what that person said.

MR VISSER: And there was a photo of him that your mother told you about that was shown to her?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did he also tell your mother that there was a file of Mbulelo at the Louis le Grange police station?

MS NGONO: Yes, he said so.

MR VISSER: So if you were to be asked what the purpose of the visit of Mr Bobelo to your mother was, would you say that the purpose was to come and tell her that Mbulelo Ngono is alive and well and he's in the Transvaal?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Can I ask you this, Ms Ngono, are you opposed to amnesty being granted to the applicants in this case, in terms of the Act?

MS NGONO: Yes, I'm opposed to the application.

MR VISSER: Why?

MS NGONO: It is because they did not tell us the truth.  These are our people, we are looking for them, we want them.  If they are killed we want them, we want to know what happened to them.  At home we are left alone and there are three of us, we want our people.

MR VISSER: Why do you say are they not telling the truth?

MS NGONO: It is because ...(intervention)