Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-15

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes, music was playing in the bar.

MR PRIOR: We have heard testimony as you have, that the applicants submitted that Security Police Officers visited the bar from time to time and on that specific evening Security Staff would be in the bar.
	We do know that the facts did not support that that there was no Security staff there, is that correct?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes.

MR PRIOR: But in the past, was it a place where the young people from the Fort Beaufort area would come together?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Every now and then dances were held, which everyone attended, not only Security Force staff.  Perhaps one or two Police Officers, but it wasn't generally known as a gathering point for Police Officers.

MR PRIOR: The Police at Fort Beaufort, do they have their own facilities, do you know about that?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: At that point they did have facilities.

MR PRIOR: At Fort Beaufort?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you ever visit the Police canteen or facilities?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes, after 1993 we visited their facilities once or twice.

MR PRIOR: I understand that there was a Army Base near Adelaide?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: How far is that from the Hotel, approximately?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: It is approximately 15 to 20 kilometres away from the Hotel.

MR PRIOR: Is it an Infantry Battalion?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: It was a Commando.

MR PRIOR: Is it a base where soldiers lived or was it a Commando from time to time when people would be called up and the camp would be held there?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: I would say from time to time, but there are people who reside there permanently.

MR PRIOR: Soldiers?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes, soldiers.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Chairperson, that is the testimony.

MR PRIOR: .

MR MBANDAZAYO: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: .

MR MTEMBU: I have not questions Mr Chairman.

MR MTEMBU: .

MR LAX: Mr Nel, there is just one or two things that you might be able to help us with, with regard to the actual bar itself and the venue and so on.
	If I could just show you this plan of the actual premises, maybe you can just tell us about it, confirm and clear up one or two issues.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I just assist in orientating the witness?

MR LAX: Sure.  Mr Nel, you are now familiar with the plan?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes.

MR LAX: At the entrance to the bar, there appears to be some sort of obstruction right opposite the door, and in one of the photographs it looks like a screen of some kind.  For example if you were to look at photograph 8, which is in that same package...

CHAIRPERSON: It is in front of the plans.

MR LAX: Okay, but if you look at the colour one, you get a better view of it.    That is it there, you can see it is a sort of wooden slatted kind of obstruction in the doorway, with business cards and things on it.

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes.

MR LAX: Is that the item that is depicted as obscuring the entrance as you would walk in?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: No, that is the entrance to the bar itself through where the barman gets to behind the counter.

MR LAX: So does the bar open straight in, does that door open straight in, once you open that screen door that you can see in the  picture for example, there is a wooden door that is opened inwards, if you opened the screen door, you would enter immediately straight into the bar, and see the whole of the bar at your disposal?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: If you enter at this door, and you turn left, two steps then you get to the bar counter.

MR LAX: We are just trying to establish whether anything obscures your entry into the room, in other words if you were standing in that doorway, would you have a full view of the room?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: No.

MR LAX: What is that obstruction there then, what would obstruct your view?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: The door, if you walk in at the door, then the structure is there, you would only see one of the bar, except if you walk passed that point of course, or if you walked closer, then you could have seen the whole bar.

MR LAX: What we are trying, what I am working towards is when one of the applicants came into the bar, and began shooting, where was he standing in relation to that plan when he shot?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: He would have been looking in the direction of the window, he wouldn't have been shooting straight forward.  He would have been turned in the direction of the window, and if he moved around, he would have shot into the bar, except if he was looking through the holes there at the barman.

MR LAX: So if I understand you, the window you are referring to is the window that presumably the other applicant would have shot through from the outside?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just ask on the same point.  Would you recall whether the applicant who came into the bar, actually came right in or do you  recall where he was when you saw him?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: From where I sat, I could see him through this door or this, he came in and he turned left.  He didn't look in our direction and that is when the lights went off, after the first shots.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he shoot through that barrier, whatever that is, or did he only shoot afterwards, would you recall?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: I would say he shot after he turned left.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he shoot before or after the lights went off, or can't you say?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: I wouldn't be able to say because everything happened at once, shots were fired and the lights went off.
	I did not see him physically shooting.

ADV GCABASHE: And when you then look at the window where the second applicant was standing, there was no danger of shooting the first applicant if you had to try and picture how they were standing?  There would be no danger of shooting the first one from the window?

MR LAX: Sorry the witness' microphone wasn't on, so the interpreter didn't hear the answer.

JAN JOHANNES NEL: No, not at all.

ADV GCABASHE: So, you would say that all the shooting essentially if you were standing at the door or window, took place on the left hand side of the bar, not on the right hand side of the bar, would that be correct?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: The first shots yes, came from the window.  The other shots after that, I don't know.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR LAX: Did you and the others exit through the door on the opposite end of the bar, from the entrance and into the building from there?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes, we exited the back entrance, where the people who lived in the hotel, would have come into the bar, that is where we exited the bar.

MR LAX: That entrance is quite clearly marked on the plan, towards the end of the bar.

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us, as I understand it, that two of your friends were playing darts at the time?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And would they have been using the score board that appears on photo 15?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It looks from the photograph as if bullets came through that window and through the score board, is that so or don't you know?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that where the shooting started?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They must have been very lucky.

JAN JOHANNES NEL: If I can recall correctly, the guys who were playing darts said when everything happened, they heard something that sounded like a hand grenade exploding, that was probably the first shot that went through the window.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairperson, there is just one question.  I just want the witness to comment on the last photo, photo number 21, the broken door.  If we can place this door in this plan and possibly tell us if he knows who broke the door, or what had happened there? May I continue?
	Mr Nel, can you see photo 21?

JAN JOHANNES NEL: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Where is that door in relation to the plan, can you identify this for us?