Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

CHAIRPERSON: I don't recollect that, can I look at my notes?

MR LAX: Please do.

ZAMA THUTHA: If I did say so then I was mistaken.

MR PRIOR: I think he said he saw a lot of blood and he saw stab wounds.

ADV SANDI: Is that the time when he goes back with the police to the scene?

MR PRIOR: That's correct, yes.

MR LAX: I'm talking about a different occasion.

MR PRIOR: I beg your pardon.

MR LAX: I'm talking about earlier this morning when you testified.
	My recollection was that he heard the shot when he was back at the truck and he looked back and he could see that she had been shot, that's what he said.

ADV SANDI: Personally, I don't recall that.

MR LAX: It's alright, the record will speak for itself.  If I'm wrong, again I apologise.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The things Mr Chairman, I heard as Mr Lax heard it but I did not interpret it as if he actually saw her lying down but he indicated that he heard the shot and he looked and he could see that this person's being shot, that's how I interpreted it.  Not necessarily that he saw her lying down but he knew that she is being shot.

ADV SANDI: Did he say he saw blood there?

MR LAX: No, no, no, he didn't say that.  The impression I got from what was interpreted was that, when he heard the shot he was at the truck, he looked back towards the direction where the shot was and he saw that she'd been shot, that's what he said or some words to that effect.  Anyway the record will speak for itself.
	Do you remember looking back when you heard the shot?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I do remember.

MR LAX: And what did you see when you looked back?

ZAMA THUTHA: I could not see from where I was because I did say that there were bushes.  I could then not see when I was by the truck.  I started - I only saw exactly what had gone on when I'd come back with the police.

MR LAX: When you came back with the police and as you pointed out in this photograph where the body was, was the body in the same place where you had left her with Thandekulo?  Was that the same place?

ZAMA THUTHA: She had been moved from where she was before.  You could even see when we went back the second time that she had been moved from one place to another, because of the blood.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	After the shots were fired, did Thandekulo come back to the truck?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, he came back to hand over the gun that he had.

MR PRIOR: Hand you the firearm?

ZAMA THUTHA: He asked ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Did he hand you a firearm?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you notice blood on his hands when he did that or on any of his hands?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not look carefully, I can't say, I can't say.

MR PRIOR: Your co-applicant, Mr Kulman said yesterday he noticed blood on Thandekulo's hands and also something sharp in his hands ...[intervention]

MR LAX: He also noticed blood on his shirt he said.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	The question is, you were there, you took a firearm from him, if that was the case surely one would have expected you to see blood, he was standing obviously right in front of you.

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't want to dispute that but this happened a long time ago, perhaps I've forgotten whether there was blood or not.  I can't remember this specific point.

MR PRIOR: There's just two aspects I want to canvass with you.  One is page 2 of the bundle, your application form ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Which bundle?

MR PRIOR: Sorry, bundle A.
	Paragraph 9(a) IV, you said:
"On the 27th of August '93 in Umtata in Northcrest in the company of other cadres one, Thandekulo who is a commander arrived and ordered me to go with another cadre to fetch a truck which we found at Nxongora admin area"
That instruction was given to you in Umtata and not on the way as you indicated in your evidence, is that so?

ZAMA THUTHA: This evidence that is presented here is something that we said in Umtata.  I did tell you however that some things we hid, some information we did not divulge, some we did.  This we said falsely.

MR LAX: So this is false in your amnesty application before the Truth Commission, do I understand you correctly?  Can you answer me?

ZAMA THUTHA: Can I have a moment with my representative please?

MR LAX: No, just answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer the question.

MR LAX: Sorry, we're asking you not to talk to your representative, please stop talking to him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'm not trying to come to his rescue but he's asking me whether it's what was written and I'm telling that is not the affidavit, it's the actual application form he made in jail.  It's not the affidavit he was talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: What has been read to you is what appears in your application for amnesty and as I understand it you have now just said: "Well that is false".  Will you please explain?

ZAMA THUTHA: What exactly did I say is not true?  My application for amnesty or a statement that I gave a long time ago?

MR LAX: Mr Prior read to you a portion from your amnesty application which is the handwritten document which your lawyer has been showing you at page 2 and page 3.  I see you're reading it at the moment.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I also point out that the Committee actually asked his legal representative to go through the application with him before he commenced his evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, I confirm that Mr Chairman and I went through it with him, his application.

MR LAX: Please translate what he's saying.

INTERPRETER: It's not audible, what the applicant is saying is not audible.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question?  That in this application you have said that your commander arrived at Northcrest Umtata and ordered you and another cadre to fetch a truck whereas in your evidence here you have said it was only on the way that you were told what the purpose of the exercise was.

MR LAX: Sorry, just to correct that, it wasn't while they were on the way per se, it was once they'd got - the second, the first applicant - he was told the first applicant would tell him what the nature of the operation was and the first applicant only told him that once they'd got out of the car.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes, that was the impact of the question.

ZAMA THUTHA: Can I speak?

MR LAX: Please.

ZAMA THUTHA: There's a mistake here.  First of all, when I wrote my form, my application for amnesty I don't who that person is who helped me write.  I don't know if they wrote everything that I said.  What I am saying or what is in the application it's the first time I see it now.  I had little time to write this.   Now I realise that there are things in my application form that I don't follow.  This is difficult.

MR LAX: But you see your lawyer took you through it this morning, why didn't you say: "Wait, hang on, this is a mistake.  Please draw the Committee's attention to the fact that this is completely wrong".  You didn't say a word when he took you through it or maybe you said something to him but he certainly hasn't said anything to us, I don't know.  Did you say something to him at that stage?

ZAMA THUTHA: I understand all that you're saying.  The representative asked me if I know what I said and he then said I mustn't forget what I had said.  He did read my application.  He didn't read the whole application form, he just read certain things.  He did this within a very short span of time.  There was not enough time to go through the application.  	Now I get confused because the person who wrote the form for me is not here and I don't know where he is.

MR LAX: Did the person who wrote the form fill it in as you were speaking to him?