Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not in my statement.  That is the statement 
which the Magistrate made.  Somebody used that terminology and 
also explained it like that to the Doctor.  That is why Advocate 
Mostert told me that I had misled them.
	Well, I did mislead them initially on the scene and because I 
had left a limpet mine detonator there, they made the assumption.  
The Magistrate and the Doctor and the person who had issued the 
press statement.  The policeman who released the press statement, 
all made mention of a limpet mine.

ADV FORD: The report which was forwarded under your signature 
to Pretoria, if my recollection is right, also made mention of a limpet 
mine, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was an administrative report relating to a 
damaged vehicle and I simply signed the post.  I didn't even read the 
contents.  It was simply to comply with the requirements of the 
quartermaster regarding a damaged vehicle and somebody else 
drafted the report, I was the Unit Commander and I simply signed it 
without reading it.

ADV FORD: Would you agree with me Mr Nieuwoudt, that by the 
end of the evidence in this regard, it was quite clear that the bomb in 
question could not have been a limpet mine?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

ADV FORD: And had a proper investigation been conducted, that 
could have been ascertained by an explosives expert?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Well, let me take it, you weren't a professional, you 
have already told us that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, but you could not from the 
scene there, you wouldn't be able to determine what kind of 
explosive device had been used.  Nobody would be able to determine 
that.

ADV FORD: The proper people to conduct the investigation and to 
furnish such a report, would have been those who were 
professionals, would you agree?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Even the forensic laboratory will not be able to 
tell you how big the charge had been, what type of charge had been 
used.  They would only be able to tell you what kind of elements had 
been used in the manufacture of the explosives.  That would be all 
that they could tell you.  They wouldn't be able to tell you how big 
it had been, what kind it had been etc.  Only the type of explosive 
used.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt, out of the literature which you have 
read and which you've told this Commission you have read, would 
you agree with me that it is everybody agrees, in as far as the 
literature is concerned, that in so far as counter-insurgency, 
counter-intelligence is concerned, the elimination of people is an 
absolute final resort?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And that if there are any other ways of - was there 
any way of avoiding killing people, it should be done?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: What I am putting to you Mr Nieuwoudt, that even if 
all your other evidence with regard to the involvement of Mgoduka, 
Sehati, Mapipa and Faku is correct, that there were other ways.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I repeat what I said, I left it in Brigadier 
Gilbert's hands, he gave me the order.  He made the decision.   It 
wasn't necessary for me as far as I was concerned, it wasn't 
necessary to eliminate them, but that was my order.

ADV FORD: Mr Chairman, if I may just have a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you resume.  I think we should admit this 
as Exhibit B.  I don't think we did, did we, the requisition for the 
tickets?

MR BRINK: The voucher for the plane ticket, yes it is before you. 
 Exhibit B.

CHAIRPERSON: The voucher for the ticket is then Exhibit B.

ADV FORD: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Finally Mr Nieuwoudt, 
would it be fair to put to you that had you not conveyed the 
information which you did, to Brigadier Gilbert, if you hadn't urged 
upon him the urgency and the importance of the situation, and how 
complicated it was, and urged upon him that drastic steps were 
required, the men would not have been killed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I had my information which I believed was 
correct, that I conveyed to him.  I gave him a full report, he listened 
to the tapes himself and he made that decision that those persons 
should be eliminated.

ADV FORD: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

ADV FORD: .

ADV POTGIETER: That order was to commit an offence.  Do you 
agree with Mr Van Rensburg's evidence that a member had a choice 
in the sense that if you didn't want to obey a so-called order to 
commit an offence, then you could refuse?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, not in the culture which I found myself, 
one did not question one's superiors.  I was indoctrinated and told 
that we had to fight the ANC as the enemy, so the order which I was 
given, I trusted implicitly and obeyed implicitly.

ADV POTGIETER: Was Mr Van Rensburg wrong when he said 
that a member in those circumstances had a choice.  That was his 
very clear evidence yesterday?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can only speculate.  I don't know what 
General Van Rensburg meant, but the way I interpreted it was that I 
never questioned an order given by a superior.  I followed it blindly 
and that is why I am in these circumstances, because I was loyal to 
my Security Branch and towards my Commanding Officer and to my 
country.  That is why I did this.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Just one question Mr Chairman.  Mr Nieuwoudt I am 
referring to the so-called funeral and wedding letters, you know 
what I am talking about?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BRINK: In what language or languages were they written, can 
you remember?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was written in English and also in Xhosa.

MR BRINK: Did you have apart from the four people who were 
killed, did you have other Xhosa speaking people on your staff?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Nieuwoudt, you might be able to help me 
with one aspect,  Snyman and Vermeulen and Ras, were they 
Warrant Officers?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: All three of them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.  If I remember correctly at that stage.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you not trust them completely or what?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I trusted them completely.

ADV POTGIETER: You didn't tell them about the Eastern Block 
detonator?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.  I deposited it there without being noticed.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you tell anybody else about it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV POTGIETER: You didn't tell Gilbert or anyone else?  
Perhaps the two experts, Du Toit and Kok?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Why not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because Gilbert had told me that it should 
look, made to look like an ANC operation and I knew that on 
several such scenes we had picked up some of these detonators and I 
knew that if it had been done by the technical division, then there 
would be no proof.
	And that is why I left that detonator there to point a finger at 
the ANC.

ADV POTGIETER: But didn't you think of asking Du Toit and 
Kok, why didn't you ask them look if I plant this thing on the scene, 
would it lead to any problems?  Another expert perhaps, could be 
able to work out that this was a planted detonator.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV POTGIETER: That that detonator couldn't or wasn't able to 
detonate this charge?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, but it could.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes, that is your opinion.  But you didn't think 
of asking anybody about this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV POTGIETER: And the other aspect, you took a detour with 
Snyman, Ras and Vermeulen.  You drove to the scene?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is when we loaded the vehicle with 
explosives.