Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

CHAIRPERSON: I think we will give you more than three minutes.  What we will do is, we will allow Professor de Koker to proceed on other aspects since he's not going to finish today, then you'll have more than just the three minutes to think about it and tomorrow morning I'm sure you would have cleared your mind up even better.  So, I think you can proceed with other aspects.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR TSHOLANKU: Excuse me Mr Chairman, may I interpose?  I understand it is in the interest of Mr Smiles that he is afforded more time to recollect everything that he has to put forth but this particular pertinent issue that is causing the Committee problems now pertaining to the signal, I would appreciate it if it is cleared before we go home today, lest it is - when he comes back tomorrow, it is deemed in a very dim view that he might have been influenced by somebody to say something different to what he's saying today.  I'd rest comfortable knowing very well that that has been cleared up Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think there will be a basis for that.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Unless of course Mr Tsholanku, you want to persist that we give you two minutes?  I don't know whether Mr Smiles can really recollect himself within two minutes.

MR TSHOLANKU: Madam, as long as the Commission assures me that whatever comes round would not be viewed in a dim view - in a dim light tomorrow, that he might have been influenced and then at the end of the day it prejudices him, that's my main concern.

CHAIRPERSON: We will not if there will be no basis for it.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's about - we are going close to 4 o'clock and I think we can't adjourn for three minutes and then come back, I think we should proceed and make use of the balance of the time.  There are other aspects on which you're going to cross-examine anyway.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Chairman.  Mr Smiles, you testified that you were wearing a T-shirt, did you wear anything over your T-shirt, a jersey, a jacket?

WALTER SMILES: No.

PROF DE KOKER: I want to fix the Committee's attention to page 16 bundle 2, and that is the declaration made in Kimberley of Mr Sipho Moses Mbatwa.  In the middle of the page Mr Mbatwa said - he explained he was walking around at the back and keeping an eye on the crowds
"So the process of me walking around there, then this chap came up to me - Smiles came up to me.  He then opened his jacket like this but then I saw what I thought was a grenade"
Mr Smiles, this evidence is to the effect that you were wearing a jacket and that you opened this jacket and which made Mr Mbatwa see that you had a hand grenade, is it correct?

WALTER SMILES: No, it is not correct, I did not wear a jacket.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know personally Mr Sipho Mbatwa?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I know him.

PROF DE KOKER: Could I also fix the Commission's attention on page 18 in the same bundle about two thirds down
"I then left the ANC office to go to our office"
This is still the evidence of Mr Mbatwa:
"I then left the ANC office to go to our office. I was with Mafu Dawids on that morning when Smiles came running up to us and said he did it.  I didn't say anything, just kept on walking - I don't know if Mafu Dawids heard him"
Mr Smiles, that is evidence of Mr Mbatwa that the morning after the incident you went to him and Mr Mafu Dawids and said that you had done it.  This evidence of Mr Mbatwa, is this correct?

WALTER SMILES: I really can't remember that I met him and Mafu on that day, I remember that I only met the Major.  I don't say that I did or didn't, I can't really remember but I can remember meeting the Major.

PROF DE KOKER: So you can't remember whether you directly after this incident - the next morning, told people that you were responsible for all the pain and hurt?

WALTER SMILES: I remember that I told this to the Major but the other people, I didn't trust them to inform them about this incident.

PROF DE KOKER: You said that you didn't trust them to inform them, Mr Mbatwa testified on page 18 that you informed him.

WALTER SMILES: That is what I was saying: "I can't remember", I can only remember that I was with the major and I only explained to him about the incident.

PROF DE KOKER: That is what you say but you don't reject this evidence or testimony, you only say that you can't remember

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: So, it could be possible that you informed Mr Mbatwa and Mr Dawids that you had in fact done it, it could be possible?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that's what I'm saying I can't remember - I only work through him, not through other people.

PROF DE KOKER: But you say that you only work through him and he says that you came running to them and said that you had done it.

WALTER SMILES: Sorry Sir ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He cannot remember.

WALTER SMILES: You asked the question a few times and you're making me look stupid.

PROF DE KOKER: I realise Mr Smiles, that you might experience problems with your memory but on the other hand, you have a very clear recollection that you only mentioned this to Major Mbatha.

WALTER SMILES: It's impossible - I met with the Major, I don't say that I didn't meet people but what I can remember was that I actually saw the Major that day.

ADV DE JAGER: You said you didn't trust other people.

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So, would you have informed any other person if you didn't trust them?

WALTER SMILES: No, I would have explained it to the Committee.

ADV DE JAGER: But if you had told other people, then the next morning they could have gone to the police and said that there is this person ...[intervention]

WALTER SMILES: I went to the police and they chased me away.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Smiles, you didn't go to the police the next morning, it was three months later that you went to the police.

WALTER SMILES: The police had the idea that those were the people, so what could I do?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Smiles, please listen - you make it very difficult for yourself, you didn't go to the police the next morning?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: It was only three months later that you went to the police, that was in September.

WALTER SMILES: Because we saw that this was causing a problem in the community and that was so that we could explain what had happened.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you tell the community or just the police?

WALTER SMILES: I told the Major.

ADV DE JAGER: And the community knew nothing of that?

WALTER SMILES: Because I still couldn't trust them.

ADV DE JAGER: And at this stage you also told us that you had problems with the community but you explained nothing to the community?

WALTER SMILES: It was very difficult to explain it, so it was very difficult for me to tell it to them.

PROF DE KOKER: How many people were in the foyer of the Trust Bank building when you threw the hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: I couldn't count them - many.

PROF DE KOKER: Do you understand my question correctly?  How many people were inside the building when you threw the grenade to the building.

WALTER SMILES: I can't say how many.

PROF DE KOKER: You had a clear instruction from Major Mbatha that you to ensure that no-one would be killed in the hand grenade attack, how did you see to it that that would not happen?

WALTER SMILES: I ensured that nobody would be killed but what happened was that this hand grenade fell on the face.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Smiles with respect, you said you had an instruction that you had to prevent loss of life, this hand grenade had to fall with - inside the building, but now you say at that stage there were many people within the building.

WALTER SMILES: I thought you referred to people outside of the building.

PROF DE KOKER: That is why I said to you clearly it was people inside of the building, how many people were inside of the building?