Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, it was in the nature of our work, the combating of terrorism and that is how I became involved.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but the prevention of terrorism is done by ordinary police methods, not so?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, it was our primary function.

MR MOERANE: It is done by arresting the so-called terrorists, not so?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Arrests are part, form part of that.

MR MOERANE: Yes?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: And shooting incidents, interrogation and then the gathering of information and putting it to use.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but not murder?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No, not murder.

MR MOERANE: Why did you do it?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That was, if we look at these two incidents Chairperson, if one has a look at the circumstances, it was part of our work basically.

MR MOERANE: No, but you could have planned an arrest, not so?  You could have planned an arrest, not so?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: In these specific instances?

MR MOERANE: Yes.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I believe that one could have arranged the circumstances so that we could make an arrest.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but instead you planned an ambush?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And of course that started a whole train of illegal and unlawful deeds?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct so.

MR MOERANE: Including as I have put to one of your predecessors, the corruption of the criminal justice system?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Yes.    I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moerane.  Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have just one question.   Mr Theron, you said in your, in cross-examination by Adv Moerane you said that the
 source contacted you on the 12th of June, that very same day when the second incident was planned, is that correct?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MS LOCKHAT: I just want to refer you to Bundle 6, on page 6, that is the evidence of Mr Manzini in a Section 29 hearing in Johannesburg, Bundle 6, page 6, just the last paragraph there where Mr Manzini states, he says
"... I was given instructions by my Branch Commander to cooperate with them and as I have testified already, Warrant Officer Pienaar then gave further instructions to Warrant Officer Theron that he point out places to me."
	Is that correct, did you point out places to him?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.  I cannot specifically recall who did what, but I imagine that I went and identified the places with Warrant Officer Pienaar.

MS LOCKHAT: Then he goes further and he says
"... the first evening I went, the people did not arrive and the second evening, when I went there, I found the people there."
	My impression, it leaves with me that this happened over two days and it couldn't have been on the 12th?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.  There was an occasion where there would have been an infiltration where the people did not arrive.

MS LOCKHAT: But wasn't Mr Manzini used in this very same operation, is he referring to another operation or is he referring to the operation on the 12?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: He refers to an evening or two before the second incident took place, I received information that there would be an infiltration.   We made the necessary arrangements and Mr Manzini drove to the border, but he did not find anybody there, nobody was in the vehicle with him.

MS LOCKHAT: And then just one last question.  You received all this information from your source, you took it to Mr Pienaar who then took it to Mr De Kock, was it your intention, or did you foresee that they were going to be eliminated because of the information that you had given to your Commander?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: At that stage I did not foresee what would exactly happen, I could have foreseen that there may have been a shooting incident, but I could not foresee exactly how the planning would go about.

MS LOCKHAT: But you do realise that after receiving this information from you, these people were killed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, there was a strong possibility that it would happen, I did foresee it.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Van der Walt, do you have any re-examination?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?  Sorry, I heard somebody?

MR LAMEY: Sorry Mr Chairman, during cross-examination by Mr Moerane, Mr Theron testified about the information that they had surrounding the infiltration of the MK soldiers, when he gave evidence in chief, I did not understand his evidence to be, he talked of armed MK soldiers, during cross-examination of Mr Moerane he said something to the effect of MK soldiers and they assumed that they would be armed.  Could I be permitted Mr Chairperson, just to ask questions on this line?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

MR LAMEY: Mr Theron, I speak of the second incident and the information that you had with regard to the second incident, can you specifically recall what the information was from the source?  Would they be armed, the insurgents?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, as far as I can recall, there was no specific mention made of weapons, but I assumed that there would be weapons.  It was not specifically mentioned to me that the persons would have weapons and what type of weapons they would have.

MR LAMEY: Could it have been mentioned and that you could have forgotten it by now?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: It could be, but as I say, I don't know.

MR LAMEY: You see the reason why I ask you, there must have been a good reason why Vlakplaas was involved, because if the people were not armed, or if you never thought that the people would be armed, you could have done it yourself, is that not so?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, with regard to infiltrations at the border fence, other than a border post, all the members' experience with regard to that would be that the people come in armed, that was the general feeling that the people would be armed.  There was no specific information with regard to the arming of the people.

MR LAMEY: Very well, but could that have been communicated to the Vlakplaas members that the people would be armed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I did not do the reporting myself, Mr Pienaar did that and I don't know what he said.

MR LAMEY: The reason why I ask you is because Mr De Kock says in his application that
"... I took the decision to eliminate them because they were armed."
	So in other words there had to be that communication?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is the inference that I draw Chairperson

MR LAMEY: And then Mr Pienaar says in his evidence with regard to the second incident, that Manzini would pick up armed MK members.

CHAIRPERSON: But where is this getting us Mr Lamey, because it is all supposition, there was no, he said there is no direct, he cannot remember any specific mention of arms, there was also the arrangement that if they were armed, he would put on the indicator now, I mean why make that arrangement if you were so hundred percent sure that they were going to be armed?  That arrangement is there obviously because there is some doubt that there may or may not be armed and they all believed that there was a strong chance of them being armed.  I mean the witness has said he cannot recall any specific mention of arms, it is all just a question for argument really, I think, it is not taking us any further, this line of cross-examination.

MR LAMEY: Yes Chairperson, but I just want to place on record then, just to put this to the witness that Mr Nortje whom I represent here, understood that from the information that the information was that the persons would be armed.