Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-19

MR DIHAL: My Lord, the difficulty I have as I understand him, he has apparently spoken with members of the TRC in the pursuance of an application for amnesty relative to those other matters, which are not contained in the present papers.  What the format of that application was, I do not know.  I do see the difficulty that had it not been properly documented in the form of an application previously, it may probably not now be permissible, by way of an amendment.
	I posed that difficulty to the applicant, but he seems convinced that it was the subject matter of a properly written application.

CHAIRPERSON: It has been pointed out, it might be possible - your client would know - that there might be other application forms, although I must say it would be unlikely because the procedure in the TRC is to especially when setting down a matter for hearing, to go through the complete records to ensure that a further application is not missed.

MR LAX: Mr Gwamanda, do you confirm what your Attorney is saying?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I understand what he has just said.  I was informed that a lawyer could be arranged for me, because I wouldn't like this to be postponed.
	The attacks that have been mentioned contained in my application.

MR LAX: Did you make another application or did you use any other forms besides the one in these papers?  I am not sure if you have it before you, but if you do have the papers there, it is on - do you have them in front of you?

MR GWAMANDA: I would like to have a look at those that you are referring to.

MR LAX: Okay.  There is an application, perhaps you can - Pete, would you kindly just give this to Mr Gwamanda please.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, this document that you are receiving, it is opened at the first page of an application form that was completed by yourself.
	The application form itself is five or six pages long.  Have you besides that one that you see in front of you, completed any similar application form?

MR GWAMANDA: I filled one in Zulu and then the Correctional Services authorities, translated and filled this one, and I was asked to sign it.
	With regards to the attacks mentioned in the form, I think the information is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have any submissions to make?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't have any submissions to make, save to say that this is the only application of the applicant.  I happen to have a knowledge of his application, because at one stage he threatened to withdraw his application, some time, two or three months ago, and I called for his application to read and I insisted that they must go and consult with him further, and he then changed his mind to go on.
	This has always been the only application.  He was approached by our Investigator, Sheila Mkhize on the 11th of June 1998, when he made a further, when he submitted further information, but the further statement that he made, I am trying to check the page, does not relate to anything new, but explaining what is already in his application.
	If he had more information or if he wanted to include other incidents or acts, I want to believe he had the opportunity in 1996 when he was talking to ...

CHAIRPERSON: In 1996?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In 1998.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1998?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In 1998 when he was consulted by Sheila Mkhize, which statement Sheila has in the bundles.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falconer, do you have any submissions to make?

MR FALCONER: Mr Chairman, I am taken by surprise by this.  Obviously I do not bear any knowledge of any other statement he may have.  I would request that if the matter is going to be adjourned and if a further statement be made available, that obviously we be afforded an opportunity to consult with anybody who may be implicated in such statements, to establish whether we may act for such persons as well.
	Besides that I have nothing to state.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Nel, do you have any submission?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, with regards to Mr Gwamanda's application, I think I am in possession of everything that we need with regards to the Mpumalanga aspect.  I don't know whether these other statements, if there are any statements, reflect in any way on my clients whom I am representing here.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem from what Mr Dihal has said, that these other statements etc, would relate to matters that most likely occurred within kwaZulu Natal and wouldn't effect the Barberton/Nelspruit incident.

MR NEL: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mukadam?

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, what is on record is that there may be other information.  All that information is not, if he has made any other statements, that information has not been given to us.
	There is a possibility that some of it may relate and if he says to Third Force activities, it may also relate to activities that he participated in in the Mpumalanga area.  At this stage I am in the dark.
	Perhaps if more information is given to us, we would know whether it in fact, impacts on the - the evidence would impact on any of the interests of Mr Phosa.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if I may come in now, unless if the Chair has finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, the question was put to the applicant as to whether he has made, submitted any other application other than this one.  My recollection of his answer was that he submitted the application in Zulu and it was translated into English by the Correctional Service Officers.
	If I may request that the Chair becomes pertinent with him as to whether there is another application other than this one, then we can perhaps start deliberating on whether it effects the other gentlemen or not.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, did you hear what Mr Mpshe has just said?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there another form, application form that you completed that is different from this one, other than the fact that it is in a different language?

MR GWAMANDA: From what I see, I don't think there is any difference between this and the one I made in Zulu.  There is no problem with regards to the application form, but what may differ is the information that I may present on the Third Force, but there isn't any omissions from the application form.
	The information that will be different will impact on Third Force activities.  With regards to the attacks that took place in kwaZulu Natal, there is nothing that has been omitted.
	That is why I am saying that we must proceed with the proceedings.  I would also like to know if I would be able to get legal representation or not.  Mr Dihal explained his difficulty to me and I do not have a problem with that.
	I would like to have another lawyer appointed for me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What I would like to know is with regards to the application before us, did you include everything that you seek amnesty for?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you satisfied that they are all here?

MR GWAMANDA: Yes.  The statement that I made to the Goldstone Commission, is slightly different from what I am going to say, but I am satisfied with the application form, it includes everything that I am going to talk about.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, you certainly are entitled to legal representation in these proceedings, that is precisely the reason why Mr Dihal was briefed in this matter.
	You have said to us that it is your desire to be represented and we therefore will certainly not proceed with this matter, without an Attorney acting or a Counsel Advocate acting on your behalf in this matter.
	I just don't know how long it will take to make the arrangements to first of all, secure the services of another legal representative, and then for that legal representative to meet with you and to consult with you and take full instructions from you.
	I doubt whether that would be able to be done today or am I incorrect in my doubt Mr Mpshe?