Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

MARTHINUS DAVID RAS: It was myself, John Tait, Paul van Dyk and if I recall correctly, Botes, Botha.  Mr de Kock gave us instruction to go over to Swaziland.  There was a road that ran parallel to the border.  We hid our vehicle in the bush on this side and continued by foot to the other side.  We did not know exactly where these people would stop the vehicle or where they would be dropped off and we took up position next to the road.  If I recall correctly at about 10 o'clock or so, a vehicle approached which turned around and parked on the other side of a small bridge.  We heard people climbing out of the vehicle.  There were some voices talking.  It must have been 100 to 150 metres from us.  We heard the boot opening and we also heard 4 AKs being cocked.  I did not know that it was AKs but I drew the inference because of the experience that I have and the ten years, at that stage, which I had worked operationally.  We waited for the voices to disappear and from there we went along the road, across the bridge, to next to the car.  We were afraid that they might have left a guard at the vehicle, which was not the case and on the eastern side of the road approximately 40 metres from the vehicle we took up position and waited for the persons to return who would accompany the ANC members to the border.
	We lay waiting quite a while and we heard some voices approaching.  The planning was to wait until the persons were in the vehicle and then to shoot the persons.
This would prevent that - so to limit their chances of escape.  When the one person unlocked the door, Mr van Dyk started shooting upon which the other three of us followed and there was a short skirmish until Mr van Dyk said we should stop firing.  Next to the vehicle a person lay dead,  there was a Makarov next to him.  We did not plant it this time.  We had a look for documentation quickly in the vehicle.  We did not open the boot.  Mr Botha shot the petrol tank to pieces after which I set the vehicle alight and from there we came back to the RSA side upon which we heard later in Piet Retief that four ANC members were killed in a shooting incident similar to the one where I was involved with at a previous occasion.

MR JANSEN: And the purpose of this group of yours to go to the Swaziland side, was to kill those people there

MARTHINUS DAVID RAS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: And who was in command of that group?

MARTHINUS DAVID RAS: Mr van Dyk was.

MR JANSEN: And similar to the first incident on the 8th June, you did not receive any remuneration for this incident?

MARTHINUS DAVID RAS: No, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: And you regarded it as actions which you participated in against the ANC or against ANC members?

MARTHINUS DAVID RAS: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: Later during the post mortem inquest which was held with regard to the first incident, did you give evidence?

MARTHINUS DAVID RAS: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: And that evidence of yours is not embodied in the documentation before this Committee but the short and long of it is you participated in this defeating the ends of justice and perjury, to describe that scene as one where you acted in self-defence.

MARTHINUS DAVID RAS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: And this you did with what you regarded as your work and in the interests of the country?

MARTHINUS DAVID RAS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Jansen.  I think this would then be a convenient time to take the adjournment.  I see it's five to three and as mentioned earlier we said we'd be adjourning at 3 o'clock today.  We will therefore adjourn until tomorrow.  Will 9 o'clock again be convenient?  We'll adjourn until tomorrow at the same venue and we'll start at 9 o'clock in the morning.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS