Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-04-29

DR BORAINE: And did anybody from the police or from anywhere else come and tell you that your son was shot?
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MS MTHEMBU: Nobody.

DR BORAINE: And you searched for him for four days, for his body or for him?

MS MTHEMBU: We searched for three days and on the fourth day we found him at the mortuary.

DR BORAINE: Where did you look in those three days, where did you go?

MS MTHEMBU: We went into the hospitals, all the hospitals and some of them went to the mortuaries and we couldn't find  him and then we went back to the mortuary and we found him there.

DR BORAINE: Which mortuary was that?

MS MTHEMBU: It's government mortuary at Hillbrow.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  It was a long time before he was buried, is that right?

MS MTHEMBU: Yes.

DR BORAINE: (...indistinct)

MS MTHEMBU: They said to me if we want to bury him separate, alone, he will be buried, but if we don't agree to that statement he will be rotting in the mortuary.  Those were the words from the Boers.

DR BORAINE: So the police asked you to bury him quite soon but on his own?

MS MTHEMBU: Yes.  They said we should bury him, only family, no comrades, nobody and we refused that.  We said no he has to be buried together with the dead people, that's why there was a delay.

DR BORAINE: He finally was buried together with the other comrades.

MS MTHEMBU: Yes he was buried with 17 or 19, I can't remember well.
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DR BORAINE: Another question for you, and I'm really not sure how to ask it, you told us you were very worried because people in your community are still calling you an informer and that just hurts you.

MS MTHEMBU: Yes it hurts me.

DR BORAINE: You have tried to talk with the community?

MS MTHEMBU: Yes.  What I did I think the people have a problem with me, they have to call me and ask me and that they don't do, they only spread this rumour.  Maybe they think I will get something - I think they should have called me and interrogated me and asked me why do they say I am a spy, but they don't come.  But one other thing that gives me a problem the organisation itself cannot come to me, you know they still spread this rumour about me.  It's really surprising.  I think at any time they can do what they want.  I think God doesn't just want them to do anything.  I don't know are they jealous or what.  I don't have a son today.  I got divorced with my husband.  Maria was doing standard 3 and I was struggling to let the children grow on my own.  But my own comrades are now accusing me saying that I am an informer.

DR BORAINE: It's very hard.  Just take your time.  So Mrs Mthembu you were telling us that your son of 16 years old was killed on the side of the street.  That your daughter was detained without trial and imprisoned and you are still suffering.  We have heard your story and there may be some of my colleagues who also want to ask you.  Let me hand over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much.

DR RANDERA: Sarah I greet you.  I remember those difficult times because I was a doctor in Alexandra Clinic myself and
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if I remember rightly I saw Maria when she came out of prison and I see now she has a beautiful child.  The baby I saw at the time was still very small.  Sarah I just wanted to ask two questions.  One is was there an inquest held when you reported it to the police and subsequently, was there an inquest into the death of Jerry?  If there was what was the verdict of that inquest?

MS MTHEMBU: There was never an inquest.  I was never interrogated.  When we went to the police station to open the case they said we can go to Khotso House to open a case there.  Nothing really happened.  Even when the house was burned they didn't do anything.  They said to me we can go to Khotso House to lay our charges there.

DR RANDERA: My second question is more related to what you said earlier on that you've been to a number of hospitals, police stations, I also remember that there was a big tent that the ambulance service had set it up in the township itself and my first question is did you actually go to that tent to find out whether Jerry was there?  Secondly, what was the attitude of the hospitals, the police stations when you made these enquiries, how helpful were they in relationship to the suffering that you were going through at that time?

MS MTHEMBU: The first one about tents, yes, you are right, I think Maria will give you a briefing about the tents.  The second one the relationship, the attitude of the police, they were laughing.  They were making a statement that they haven't yet started killing, they are still going to kill.  There was one from the police who came to us asking me you have turned this area into a comrades territory, we are going to kill you all.  Even if when I met him in Wynburg
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and he asked me where is this Mrs Mthembu of your comrade, we are going to kill you.

DR RANDERA: Do you remember the names of any of these policemen?  Do you have names in relationship?  I am not saying that they were necessarily associated with Jerry's death.  Do you remember the names of these policemen?

MS MTHEMBU: Yes.  The ones who came to arrest us, asking us about people's court, searching for Maria I know them.  Because even today I can meet them, even today because of the crime.  I heard Tokyo Sexwale saying everybody has to be an informer.  When we see people with firearms I can call them, those police, I know their names.  There are guns at present that came to my house and I took those people, I took them to the police to hand the guns in.  This was to show that when we speak of peace and reconciliation I talked to myself, I searched within my soul and I said reconciliation has to be there and I have to start now to forgive.  And I really showed that I have forgiveness, I am working with the police, I am giving them information.  ...(tape ends)..    ...coming to threaten me, to search my house, searching for Maria, you know doing everything in front of their eyes, naked, those I cannot really mention.  Well I have handed two guns in, their names, this is Wessel, that's the first one.  The other one is Spora(?).  Those were the two policemen coming frequently to my house.  I handed those guns straight to those people, and it wasn't me handing the guns over, I was together with the people handing the guns.  And I said to them tell the police that you picked these guns and then they won't arrest you.

CHAIRPERSON: Hlengiwe Mkhize.

MS MKHIZE: Can you please help the Commission we want to
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understand clearly you are referring to the comrades, we want to clearly understand is it the people who used to live together with you, if you say they are comrades who are you really referring to?  Because my question that will follow will be when did things start going wrong because you were living together with your comrades and you are now living in fear?

MS MTHEMBU: The people I am referring to they are comrades.  I am a comrade as well.  I am one of the street committee.  I am a member of the Women's League.  I am an organiser in Alexandra.

MS MKHIZE: Now these things about informer, you know if a person is jealous, if you have a lot of respect from other people that's how jealousy comes up then people would blame you and they would suspect that you are an informer.