Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: From Swaziland.

MR LEWIN: If you could, it must be very painful for you remembering it, but tell us a little bit more about how they assaulted you.  In your statement, your original statement you did give some more details.

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Mr Mathebula was assaulting severely, asking me about these banned ANC books that I kept supplying to the students and I should point to the person who supplied all that to me.  I refused completely to show him the person.  I did say and agreed to the fact that I gave the students the books. I agreed to that fact.

MR LEWIN: Could you just tell us how he assaulted you. In your statement you talked something about your neck, what happened to your neck. They put around me a tube filled with water.  I don't know how they did that but when I woke up I was wet all over.

MR LEWIN: So you actually lost consciousness.

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Yes I lost consciousness.

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Mr Mathebula kicked me and also instructed me to wake up and I was also suffocated.

MR LEWIN: Could we please have quite.  And when you were shot, what reason was there for you to be shot, were you running away or was this completely unexpected?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Won't you please repeat your question?

MR LEWIN: When you were shot, you say you were shot in the knee.  Was there any reason for that, were you running away, had you expected to be shot?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I expected that they would hit me with the back of the gun on my knee and they were insisting that I should get into the back of the kombi to point out other people and he insulted me and said he will kill me. I'm a dog.  I fell down after he kicked me.  When I woke up I felt my knee was so hot and painful and I could tell that I had been injured.  Other people said he shot me and he said he didn't shoot me but he shot at the floor.  They dragged me into the combi and they put the light on and said, "You see you've shot the lady".

MR LEWIN: And then what, after they took you to the hospital, did they then leave you finally?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Yes they left me finally.  They never came back to look at me or try to see how I was faring and I asked my family to bring my clothes because I knew that they will come back and arrest me after some time.

MR LEWIN: Just two more questions.  How is your knee now, does it still bother you?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I no longer use it because each time I try to kneel I have difficulties, even if I try to work due to this.

MR LEWIN: Could you take us back a little bit and give us some details about your time in prison, because you say you spent four years five months and then eight years later.  What was it like?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: It was hard because sometimes we would not ge given food and at times we would be given food.

MR LEWIN: And what were you actually charged with at the time?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: They said I had a meeting that was not allowed legally and was a leader in reinforcing the movement of collecting the passbooks.

MR LEWIN: And when you were in court, did you have a lawyer to defend you?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: No I had no lawyer at all.

MR LEWIN: Were you charged on you own or were you charged with other people?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I only had one who was since arrested and pointed at  me that I'm in Northmead and working there as a domestic worker and that's how I was arrested because they followed me and arrested me.

MR LEWIN: And can you just tell us where and when you were charged?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: The police charged me and kept saying I'm not the right person to be kept in the community.

MR LEWIN: No I just wanted to know where that happened and when it happened?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Even here they used to say I'm not the right person in the community because I'm a supporter of the ANC organisation.

MR LEWIN: So that was in Piet Retief?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: That's correct yes Piet Retief.

MR LEWIN: Thank you Mama, I'll pass you back to the chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mrs Mkhwanazi, you mention in your statement names of two alleged perpetrators, Mathebula is one.  Can you just tell us why you mention how you knew this person and how this person can still be reached or contacted?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I don't know because he was staying at Mlomo because I heard that he was a member of the Flying Squad in Ermelo and I was told that he was taken from his home.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did you know him before you were picked up or were you told his name by somebody else?  How did you get to know this person?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I used to see him and I heard people saying he was Mr Mathebula and he had nothing to do with me until he came to me and told me that he knew much better than I thought.

RUSSELL ALLY: And have you seen him since this incident that you described?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: You mean after this incident?

RUSSELL ALLY: After, yes?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I never saw him and I didn't intend to see him ever. Even when the police van came around  I would hide.

RUSSELL ALLY: And then you mentioned somebody but you only give a nick-name that this person was known as Doctor.  Is that correct?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Yes he is Doctor.  Even at the police station they refer to him as Doctor each time they call him.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was he also at Ermelo Police Station? Is that where this person was based?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I think so but there were six in the combi, six of them and they were the ones who were burning me with cigarettes around my neck.

RUSSELL ALLY: And this person who was known as Doctor, do you have any other information about him? Anything else that may help us to find out who exactly you are speaking about?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I wouldn't know because even the surname I do not know.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You will excuse me if I'm repeating a question.  The question was, in which court did you appear and in which prison were you kept for those four or so many years?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: When I was arrested I was sent to Boksburg and the case was conducted in Benoni and I was sent to Boksburg prison.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You say you were against the carrying of passes. Am I correct?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Yes we didn't want the pass.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can you remember when the Pass-Laws came to an end?  Which year was this?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: It was around 1960.

THOMAS MANTHATA: This was 1960, are you saying that the carrying of passes was brought to an end in 1960 or are you saying the passes were brought about in 1960?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: They were brought about in 1960.

THOMAS MANTHATA: My question is, when were they brought to an end, when were people no longer forced to carry passes?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: You mean the ones that we have, the current ones?

THOMAS MANTHATA: The current ones are just called ID's, they are not called dompasses that people used to carry before.

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I don't know.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But you know that there was an end to carrying dompasses?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Yes I'm aware of that.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Let's leave that.  Then you were distributing books to students.  Do you know of any student who was arrested because of distributing books that you had given to them?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What became of those students?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: They were assaulted and were arrested as well.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can you tell us at least one of their names?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I only knew the garden boy Daniella Hlope, the other one I didn't know.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At that time were you a leader of any organisation?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: I wasn't a leader but I was a follower just like other followers.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And the children that you were giving the books to, were they in any organisation themselves?

KATELENI MKHWANAZI: They were ANC members.