Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-18

MR BRINK: Who was the Chief against whom objection was raised, Mr Bheqesi?   What was his name?  Can you remember?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: It was Mr Mtsibeli Mona.

HASSAN MALL: Can I just - can you just spell his name for me please.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: M-T-S-I-B-E-L-I, Mtsibeli.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Mona, surname, M-O-N-A.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

MR BRINK: And was he an ADM member?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Mr Mtsibeli Mona was a member of the ADM, because Brig Qozo said that each and every chief must be a member of the ADM, and thus we believe that he was a member of the ADM.

HASSAN MALL: Is that all?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Bheqesi, how did - you in your evidence you touched on the fact that the ADM inhibited the ANC from exercising free political activities?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so.
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE
MS KHAMPEPE	126	MR BHEQESI

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did it do that?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Firstly, it did that by trying to nominate the chiefs as the leaders and they used to assault us and they would kidnap some of us and keep them in the Chief's house so that they wanted them to reveal all the activities of the ANC in the community.  There was no free political activities because of the ADM.  They used to go to funerals in full ammunition.  The people lived in fear all the time.

JUDGE WILSON: There seemed to have been quite a lot of them if they could do all these things.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How were your meetings disrupted by members of the ADM?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Our meetings were disrupted by members of the ADM because the Peace Force Security that was residing in Gobozane were associated with ADM.  They knew all about the meetings that we were holding at the school.	They were aware that it was ANC meetings and they were always in the Chief's house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry to interrupt.   I just want to know how your meetings were interrupted by them?  If you can just confine yourself to answering my question.  The manner in which the ADM members disrupted your meetings.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: ADM members would sent the Peace Force Security, they would not go there personally, but would send the Peace Force members.   They disrupted the meetings of the ANC Youth League and the general ANC membership.	Members of the Ciskei Police and Police Force Security dispersed us with teargas and the Chief was there in the school surroundings although he did not enter the premises.
That is when we decided that it was the ADM that disturbed everything.
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MS KHAMPEPE	127	MR BHEQESI

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who is this Peace Force?  Is it a part of the Ciskei Police Force?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: The Peace Force is a security that was there before the leadership of Brig Qozo and they were protecting the Chief but I would not really say what their relationship is with the Ciskei Police Force, but they were offering ADM members protection.

JUDGE WILSON: Was Brig Qozo ruling the Ciskei at this time?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes he was ruling Ciskei at that time.

JUDGE WILSON: And was the ADM the party that supported him
and the party that he in turn supported?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes because he was the leader of ADM.

JUDGE WILSON: And they wished to retain the system of chieftainships in the Ciskei?  Is that so?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: And that is what the Government of the Ciskei wanted?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: But you as the ANC Youth League did not like this and that is what led to the trouble?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: That is one of the things that led to the trouble.

JUDGE WILSON: And that is why you burnt their houses and killed them.  Is that so?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so.

HASSAN MALL: Do you have a copy of your application form before you?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: No I do not have one.

HASSAN MALL: Will you please make that available to him.
I want you to turn to paragraph 11 of your application 
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
JUDGE MALL	128	MR BHEQESI
form.  Have you found it?  Now before you read it I want to ask you a question. 
	You took part in the killing of this woman because you felt yourself bound by a decision that was taken at a meeting that she should be killed, is that it?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so.

HASSAN MALL: Now just read paragraph 11.A to me.  Read it aloud.
MR BHEQESI
"There was no approval from the organisation, because we didn't plan to kill anyone.   This was an accidentally act.   Our plans was to negotiate with her".

HASSAN MALL: You understand what that is?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes I got that.

HASSAN MALL: It says that this was an accidental act.  You have told us that you intended to kill her.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: Yes it is so.

HASSAN MALL: Now which is right?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: When I met the youth in the morning they told me that they had reached a decision in the previous meeting that Mrs Mphambane must be killed.  Although the youth in that meeting, it was clear that there were few of them
who were not supporting the idea, but finally it was decided that she must be killed.

HASSAN MALL: I am not asking you that question,  I understand that.  You have already told us that it was decided at a meeting that she should be killed.  That was conveyed to you.  You then took part in the killing of this woman.  That is not my question.	You have already given that as an answer. My question now is, you say here in you
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
JUDGE MALL	129	MR BHEQESI
application form that this killing was accidental.  That you did not intend to kill.

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: We had the intention to kill Mrs Mphambane.

HASSAN MALL: So why do you say here in this application form that it was accidental?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: The murder of Mrs Mphambane was due to a decision taken that she must be killed.  The reason why I wrote this in the application in front of me it is because I was told that this was discussed, although there were people who were opposing the decision.  The killing of Mrs Mphambane was not an accident.  It was decided the previous day.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: But why write it was "an accidental act"?  "Our plan was to negotiate with her", why say that in your application?   You swore that it was true didn't you?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: The reason why I wrote this on my application form is because us as the ANC we had no intention to kill people who were against us, but I tried to indicate in my application form that her murder was not the main objective.  We were just trying to negotiate with her, but although it was a decision taken I still say that it is accidental.

HASSAN MALL: I do not understand how anything is accidental when you go and throw stones at that woman to make sure that she dies.  How can that be accidental?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: The reason why I said she was killed accidentally is the fact that when we filled in the form we were doing it on our own.  We were just trying to show that her death was an accident because although we did kill her that was not our main purpose, but we were just trying to show our feeling that her death was accidental.
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
JUDGE MALL	130	MR BHEQESI
It was the main objective to kill her although we had to kill her in order to protect ourselves.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, I am now not talking about what your main objectives were.  We are just confining to this little point here you see.  So you now admit that what you have said here in this form was not true?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: It is the truth Sir.

HASSAN MALL: How can it be the truth when you say that it was accidental?

SAKOMZI BHEQESI: It is the truth in the sense that the death of Mrs Mphambane as I have stipulated on the form was an accident although it was a decision taken that she must be killed, but her killing will state that it was a clear accident that happened.