Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: We were alternating, we are many prisoners. today we work here, the next day we work there.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is simple, Mr Tuis.  You worked on this farm, you worked there at some stage?  Did you not, or did you work at this farm?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I did work once.

CHAIRPERSON: With Pitso Peleo and another person?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: And other people, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say
"I was very drunk from the dagga when I killed the whites.  I smoke almost 10 joints.  I forgot to mention to the Court that I smoked 2 very strong joints before I killed the women."
Doesn't that suggest that because of what obtained, the dog's dish, that you had to get Dutch courage to take revenge, doesn't this sound like that, or would I be mistaken?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: That is not so.  You know, this is the situation Sir.  When I say I'm a person protecting the organisation and the community, I'm referring to the blacks only.  The whites to me are an enemy and I killed them according to the instruction given to me.  From that day when I was given an instruction, I just told myself, I'm going to kill them until nothing stops me.

CHAIRPERSON: When you got the instructions, you thought of this lady, or this white lady where you worked at?   When you got the instructions to repossess you thought of this lady who gave you food out of a dog's dish, or what is the reason?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: After been given the instructions, she was a target because we once worked there, we noticed that we'll find the guns and we'll manage to carry forward the other operations.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this reason, you'll find it on page 39, the last, 31
"Prison made a mistake because I had to work for whites, because I did not plan to work for whites in my life."

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.  You see at that time in prison, you were not allowed to sit, you had to do any work, in other words we were being sold to the farms, the white farmer would not just come, he would buy you and after that he would make use of you in any way and there are many things really before this dog dish issue that happened to me, now who didn't I have the idea of revenging myself with the others?  I recall one day I had to work at Human's place.  Human went to the prison to ask for prisoners to work at his yard.  I recall one afternoon in knocking off, I said to him:  Mr Human, please can you give me R2?" and he said:  "What are you going to do with that R2?" and I said to him:  "No I want to buy sweets" and he said:  "Undress so that I can give you just one lash on the buttock" and I really undressed and he gave me the strongest lash and he gave me the R2 afterwards.  Now why didn't I have the idea of going to revenge myself against Human.  You see, that one was pure assault, pure abuse and I did not go to revenge myself.  He was living together with his wife and his child, it was easy for me to go and revenge myself against him, but you see, it was because of the decision that the woman was bad luck.  The instruction was given out and Pitso said:  "We have a target, we already know the target, let's go, finish the job, get the firearms and carry on with our mission".  Had we been successful, who knows, we would have even got to a stage of getting a chance to go to the Human's and destroy them as well.  There are many things really that happened to me.  I did not have that idea of revenging, just on the basis of a dog's dish.
CHAIRPERSON
"I warned them that if they take me out to go and work for whites, I will kill whites when I leave the prison.  The Court must not forget that I said that it doesn't matter as to where the Court takes me, but not long after that I will come back.  I am sure that by the next year, the same men will be outside.  If I get out I will look for the Judge, I will look for nobody but the Judge."
Was that still by instructions of the Task Force?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Those were not the instructions, but then I was defying the white rule at that time.  I ended up saying that because I said:  "Judge, you are a boer and I'm telling you that I do not want a white Judge, I want a black Judge.  You can do whatever you like with me, but I am certain that I will go wherever you send me, but I will come back and on my coming back, I'm going to look for you in South Africa, I will even go to your grave and dig you out and see as to whether it is true you are dead."  That's what I told the Judge, I was actually defying their rule.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you tell them:  "Look, I've got instructions from the PAC", because you felt strongly, sorry:  "from the Task Force, I feel strongly against whites.  The first white person I get out, I'll murder", why refer to specific individuals and individuals you have worked for?  Why not the Task Force says:  "One bullet, one settler", I'll get the first settler and kill the settler, why mention specific people here?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: You see, I would not be given an instruction and upon arrest I take out everything.  No, I did not want to pierce the bladder.  In other words, I would be revealing the secrets of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you forget, this is not a secret, everybody knows that "One settler, one bullet", one organisation was preaching that quite openly, it's not a secret, why would you be revealing a secret which is no secret, known to everybody?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I would not expose myself to my enemies.  They were going to kill me in turn, so I was right by doing away with my tracks.  They were not supposed to know my political affiliation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just one aspect.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Tuis.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I'm listening Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have heard that one of the women there was sexually assaulted, would you say if that happened as it was the case, the Judgment, was that part of the instructions or order?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Also, would you say that when you took the tape and you went with the tape to your home, was it part of the instructions?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was the using of the money to buy food and pour petrol, was it part of the instructions?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: From Pitso, yes, from the Commander, no.  I now want to clarify this issue of rape.  The doctor explained in Court, the doctor said the rape did not take place.  I want you to get that one clear.  The doctor explained in Court that this person was not raped at all, but how the blood got there, the doctor explained yes, it was Pitso's blood, but how, he said Pitso was one of the weakest men, who would even ejaculate by just seeing the woman and the doctor explained that so weak is Pitso that upon seeing a woman, he just ejaculates.  What he did we did not see, but the doctor mentioned that it did not happen.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Tuis is it not correct that Pitso was convicted of rape?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No, he was never arrested for rape.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Tuis.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Thank you Chairperson Motata.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you calling any other witnesses, because the applicant indicated that he's got a witness.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I don't know whether it will take our case any further, that one, but if - because it's his feeling that Pitso, who I understand was commanding in this operation ...

CHAIRPERSON: I would advise you to switch the mike off and get the applicant's instructions in this regard.