Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, we are in your hands.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson, I would now like to call Roy Cele, the next applicant.  Roy Cele seeks amnesty for public violence, the assault on Dudu Ngcobo and the murder of Mzibeni Amos Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Roy Cele, are you prepared to take the oath?

ROY BONGUMUSA CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated, you have been sworn in.  Mr Molohlanye, I see that we have again an Exhibit which is the supplementary affidavit of Mr Roy Cele.  Do you wish to hand this up as an Exhibit and it will be Exhibit B?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Correctly so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, do you have a copy of your affidavit that has been handed up to us as Exhibit B?  Mr Molohlanye?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No Your Honour, I still have to give him  one.  We are not short, I am now perplexed by the situation because I tried to make enough copies, but now I don't know what happened to it.  I apologise for that waste of time.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)  Mr Cele, is that the affidavit that you have attested on the 16th of - when was this attested to, you don't have a date here?

MR MOLOHLANYE: It was attested to today, I am sorry to have not put the date, today.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)  I see here you have it as an affidavit, this is in fact a statement?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I would like to apologise on that point, I met the other members of the Committee and then I alluded to them that they have not been commissioned and we will just call them statements, not affidavits as they appear.

CHAIRPERSON: You should have proceeded I think, to simply scratch out affidavit, just indicate a statement and I hope the record will also indicate in respect of Exhibit A, that Exhibit is not an affidavit, but a statement.  Mr Cele, this is the statement that you have signed this morning?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You are familiar with the contents contained in the statement?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I am.

CHAIRPERSON: You have read and you understand what is contained therein?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just make sure, having read and understand, do you confirm all the contents of that statement, is the statement correct?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR MOLOHLANYE: For the record Mr Cele, can you please give us your full names?
MR R.B. CELE: Roy Bongumusa Cele.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You were a member of the ANC, weren't you Mr Cele?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you please briefly give us the history of your area, how was it like?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, it would appear that we are dealing with incidents that are quite related to the ones already testified to be Mr Thulani Percival Cele.  With regard to the history of Manyaseni, we are now quite familiar with that, he doesn't need to lead that kind of evidence.  You may proceed directly to the incident concerned.

MR MOLOHLANYE: As the Committee wishes.  The day of the incident is contained in paragraph 9 of the statement, Exhibit B.  Mr Cele, can you tell the Committee what happened on the 28th of December 1989?

MR MALAN: Aren't you jumping it now?  Didn't you say he is also applying for the public violence and for the assault on Dudu Ngcobo which is dealt with in paragraph, at least the preceding paragraphs?  I don't think it is necessary for him to lead all the evidence again, if you want to refer him to the first applicant's evidence and ask whether he is in agreement with that, you can then deal with it on that basis.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Honourable Member.  Roy, were you present at the meeting where a decision was taken to go and fetch the people at Mr Amos Cele?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I was present at that meeting.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Is it correct that you went from Mr Muandla's house to Cele's house?
MR R.B. CELE: That is correct.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What role did you play when you arrived at Amos Cele's house?
MR R.B. CELE: When we arrived at Mr Cele, we took everybody who had been present in the house and proceeded to the "People's Court" in Gangala.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you take the women people too?
MR R.B. CELE: In fact the women requested ourselves that they should also go, but we had gone there with the intention of removing the people from Umlazi.

MR MALAN: Do you know why they requested to come along, to be taken along?
MR R.B. CELE: Although I cannot be certain, I think they wanted to know or find out what was going to happen to these people.

MR MALAN: Did they agree that these people were to be taken away or did they resist?  Did they advise you not to take the people?
MR R.B. CELE: They tried to resist, but because of a large number of people who were present, they did not succeed.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.  We understand that questions were asked from these people at Gangala.  Did you ask any questions?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did ask a question.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you please inform the Committee?
MR R.B. CELE: I asked them if they were aware of what channels they were supposed to follow as people who had come from one area, entering another area.  I discovered that they did not have any information with regards thereto.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What happened after these people were questioned?

MR MALAN: Sorry, won't you just follow that up and make it clear to us, what channels are we talking about?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Honourable Member.  To repeat the question, your response was that the people, those from Umlazi, you asked them what channels or how they came to your area and then you discovered that they did not have any channels in the area, is that so?

MR MALAN: No, the question was did you ask questions, he said yes, you said please inform the Committee and he said I asked them whether they were aware of the channels when entering one area from another and discovered that they did not have any information.  Maybe I should follow this up.  What channels are you referring to Mr Cele?
MR R.B. CELE: As they were coming from a different area, Umlazi, they were supposed to communicate with the people who were leaders in the area.

MR MALAN: Which people are you talking about?
MR R.B. CELE: I am referring to these people from Umlazi.

MR MALAN: Who were the leaders that they should communicate with and how should they do it?  Tell us about these channels of communication that you talk about.
MR R.B. CELE: I am trying to explain that as people who had come for a specific reason, they were supposed to contact the leaders in the community.

CHAIRPERSON: How would they have known what channels to follow, were these channels public knowledge?  How did you expect them to know that there were certain channels that had to be followed in your area?
MR R.B. CELE: If they were ANC people, they would have known because everybody in the ANC knew that if you move from an area to another, that is how you communicate through those channels.

CHAIRPERSON: If they were there for their own personal problems and not for ANC related activities, would they still have been expected to have known about those channels?  Suppose they were not even affiliated to the ANC at all?
MR R.B. CELE: What problems are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: In this case it was a death related incident, a member of one of the groups had passed away, Mr Martin Ngcobo, did you still expect them to follow certain channels in order to pursue the issue relating to the death of a relative?
MR R.B. CELE: As people who were searching for body parts, relative's body parts, they were supposed to communicate that with the people in the area so that it will be known that that is what they had come for, they did not come there to attack.