Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: It's not strange, it has happened before, it has happened many times in the past where people change their minds.   Someone says to you they would like to make a confession to a magistrate and as soon as they get to the magistrate, they have changed their mind and that they don't want to do it, this happens.

MR PRINSLOO: And at the end, you knew, on the 27th or 26th of April, according to your version, that Mrs Derby-Lewis had made an application for her release?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And from that moment forward, you continued to question her and receive statements?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, it was my right.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you inform her that this kind of application had been made?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I can't remember, it's possible.

MR PRINSLOO: But there is nothing in writing that you did inform her?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Well she was a detainee, I cannot remember, I may or may not have informed her regarding this, according to me, she was a detainee, there was no document that had been issued saying that she should be released by the Minister, and if that had been so, I would have been compelled to release her, but until such a document had been issued, I would have continued with my work.

MR PRINSLOO: And she never had any legal assistance or access to the law while she was detained?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No, in terms of section 29, she had no right to that.

MR PRINSLOO: And you are aware that during her interview with Captain Deetliefs before she was detained in terms of section 29, she repeatedly asked for legal assistance?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I'm not aware of that, I was not present when Mr Deetliefs questioned her or when any arrangements were made between the two of them.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you not make use of a videotape, as with other cases, when you knew that allegations were always made about the Security Branch?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I was not even aware that a videotape had been made with Mr Walus, I only knew which methods were used with his interviews.   My instructions - in all the interviews that I had made during my years at the Security Branch, I never used a videotape.

MR PRINSLOO: But some officers did?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, certain officers did use videotapes, it wasn't compulsory though.

MR PRINSLOO: But it would have assisted you greatly today if you had material on video.

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Why?

MR PRINSLOO: In order to determine exactly what happened, for example in cells, if there was 24 hour monitoring in John Vorster Square, there would be videotape material.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he didn't make himself a videotape, he has said so, neither do we have any reason to think that it was standard practice for the police to do that, to make use of ...(intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: Captain, this detention file is compiled by the Security Police, is that correct?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: It's for the purposes of the Security Police?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, we provide it to the charge office and also the persons, the magistrates, the district surgeons, the officers who were working during the weekends, and they make a note whether a person has any problems.   All the, the charge office does not have such files and we provide it for this purpose.

MR PRINSLOO: The charge office has an occurrence book which gives 100% report on what is happening?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.   Whether everything is reported I don't know, but they should keep up an occurrence book.

MR PRINSLOO: This file regarding her detainment, has that been kept up to date?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: I looked at it this morning.   If you look at Exhibit Z, page 5, are you on page 5, Mr Chairman?    Right at the top there's an entry?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: The 24th of April, it's just before six o'clock in the evening?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: 17:35, just after half past six.

MR PRINSLOO: It's actually five - it's five to seven, but in any case, on the 25th of April at 7:50 it has an entry by Strydom saying
"Visit Mrs Derby-Lewis, she complains of stomach ache and heart ache.   I took her to have breakfast and to have a bath."
Do you see that?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I see that, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: This is a serious complaint if you have a heart ache?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: The procedures if such a complaint was made is that the uniform people should get a doctor to examine this person.   They all know those procedures and they have to do that.

MR PRINSLOO: Well, Captain, you had a... (tape ends)

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No, I did not have a look at all these entries.

MR PRINSLOO: But you've said she had no complaints, but here is a complaint.

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: When I've asked her, she did not mention any complaints.   If she complained to me and at some stages she said she was tired, she wanted to have a rest, I stopped, and she said she wanted clean clothes, she obtained clean clothes.   If she said her son had to obtain money for her, I made certain arrangements.    People from Benoni summoned her son and the money was handed over in her presence.   I provided magazines for her, every small complaint I paid attention to, Mr Chairman, and if she had complained about illnesses or a heart complaint, I would have reacted to that.

MR PRINSLOO: And do you see further on, there's another entry on the same page, on the same day, she had half an egg and she drank a glass of milk and she's not feeling well, do you see that?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I see that, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: You knew that you had to do with a person who was possibly ill, because this dossier, you had insight in this dossier?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: This file was held in the charge office.   We who did the questioning had his own file.

MR PRINSLOO: And in that, when you've questioned them regarding whether you're ill, do you need anything, and those entries were made?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: All the entries made by the other members of the police force, I did not read, because that was for the purposes of to be used in the charge office.   If she did not complain to me, I was satisfied, Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: And then, further on, on page 7, at the bottom, 14:40 on the 13th of April, she starts with a request and it's said on the next page, on page 8
"Tried to calm her down, she was hysterical and said if she could not contact Human, she was going to bang her head against the wall."
And it continues like that.   And that was ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You're asking him to comment on something that somebody else wrote down of which he's not aware.   Now how does it take this matter further?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, Mr Chairman, this is contradictory to what he said, that there were no complaints.   This woman was hysterical.

CHAIRPERSON: He did not say that there were no complaints, he says there were no complaints as far as he was concerned.

MR PRINSLOO: I've said enough, but the instructions are fine, if she had any complaints, if those complaints were serious, the people in charge had to contact me or anybody else, or had to summon a doctor to pay attention toward these complaints.   If they did not do their duty, what could I have done about it?

MR PRINSLOO: I'm putting it to you, because she was in the hand of the Security Police, how could she complain to you, because you were handling her, she was going to complain to the uniformed policemen, do you agree to that?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: What I don't understand, this woman at various instances told me that she was happy with her treatment.   She had her meals at the mess, she got good meals, all the section 29's had their meals in the mess, this is evidence how well they were treated.

MR PRINSLOO: Food does not set everything right.