Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chaskalson, I thought I heard you say that 10 bottles were in August, it seems to me the record must be straightened out then.  Are you referring to the item where it says: 8th of September '89?

MR CHASKALSON: My apologies, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record.

MR CHASKALSON: It seems that on the first page of this list we have got three beer bottles Bot., which I presume is Botulism, three beer bottles with Thallium, another beer bottle of Botulism, another two of Thallium.  We've got Sugar and Salmonella, we've got some Whisky and Paraquat, we've got a baboon foetus, we've got cigarettes with B Antheral, we've got five coffee chocolates with B Antheral, there's another five coffee chocolates with Botulinum, some peppermints with Aldicarb, peppermint chocolates with Brodifacum, peppermint chocolates with Cantharidine and peppermint chocolates with cyanide, three and three were the last two quantities. ...[indistinct] whisky with Colchicine - excuse my pronunciation, and the list seems to go on.  Would you consider this list to be a list which could have been used for some form of scientific research or a list which is a list or murder weapons?

DR VAN RENSBURG: Undoubtedly a list of murder weapons, no value for research whatsoever.

MR CHASKALSON: If you could indulge me for just a moment please Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor van Rensburg, did I understand you to be saying you were not aware that these things were produced, you were shocked when you got this list?  I'm talking about you as a person.

DR VAN RENSBURG: I was not aware of the list.  I was aware that this type of thing was being issued, that I was aware of but I didn't realise the scale it was being done at.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what was it being issued for?  In terms of your awareness, what was it said, what was it going to be used for?

DR VAN RENSBURG: It was being issued primarily, most issues went either to Doctor Swanepoel or Doctor Basson but most of them went from Andre Immelmann direct to operatives.  They would meet at some neutral place, they'd have false names, Doctor Immelmann was often called Willem, he often met a guy called Chris and I believe there is letters down, just after the date delivered, you'll lots of C's there.  I know that stands for Chris, the others I don't know what they stand for.  These were just ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: JK, is it JK?

DR VAN RENSBURG: Code names, they were code names.  They weren't supposed to know who was who.  Doctor Immelmann had a storeroom adjacent to his office, a high security fireproof, bombproof storeroom where he kept all these products and that was, as I say you could only get there through his office.
 And the people who used to visit there periodically as I've said were Swanepoel, Basson, Doctor, General Lothar Neethling made periodic visits there, characteristically always with his bulging briefcase.  I never saw what was happening inside that room.  I never saw any of these products.  I knew he kept them there.  
 I was also exposed to some of these products when we stopped offensive work and there was a panic.  There was a rumour there was going to be a raid by the Security Branch or somebody and there was a rapid disposal of some of these chemicals.  He exposed some in the bathroom that we used and I became exposed to some Cantharadines and I can tell you it's not a happy experience.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just ask whilst Mr Chaskalson is spotting something that he is going to ask you.  You are talking about Doctor Lothar Neethling, you must be aware that at some stage the Vryeweekblad carried stories that suggested that Doctor Lothar Neethling was responsible for certain toxins that he had administered and there was a whole lawsuit and all that.  Now, from the place where you now sit and against the backdrop of what you referred to as bulging briefcases in the context of these substances and these toxins, were you surprised when those sort of claims were made in the newspaper?

DR VAN RENSBURG: Not at all, I never had any doubt what the Vryeweekblad was 100% true but that is my personal opinion and that is based on the very close association that already existed between Wouter Basson and Lothar Neethling.  When I arrived on the scene in August 1984, they were obviously old buddies and worked together.  They were very dedicated to their task.  I saw them the first time when we tested teargas on baboons.  They had a teargas that I think was meant to give them tummy cramps.
 The idea was that if you put down teargas everyone quickly goes to look for a toilet.  It didn't work on the baboons so these two gentleman both had no qualms about walking through the clouds themselves and that's actually the only human experiment I saw.  And their close association with, not only those two, but with Doctor Immelmann.  Obviously they all shared common interests in chemical warfare.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chaskalson?

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you.  Doctor are you aware that two of the substances we discussed, Brodifacum and Menensim cause acute heart failure in the human and also have the dubious merit of not being traceable?

DR VAN RENSBURG: That was a very highly sought after merit Mr Chaskalson.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you elaborate as to why you say that?

DR VAN RENSBURG: The most frequent instruction we obtained from Doctor Basson and Doctor Swanepoel was to develop something with which you could kill an individual which would make his death resemble a natural death and that something was to be not detectable in a normal forensic laboratory.  That was the chief aim of Roodeplaat Research Laboratories covert side.

MR CHASKALSON: That's quite a startling admission or statement.

DR VAN RENSBURG: That's the most frequent repeated need that I heard or instruction given.

MR CHASKALSON: So it would be fair to say that you were not interested in doing defensive work on a very large scale?

DR VAN RENSBURG: I was - I joined the institute on the 1st of August ...[intervention]

MR CHASKALSON: Sorry Doctor, I was referring to the organisation itself.

DR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  Within two weeks of joining them I realised this is not defensive work, this is offensive work.  It was a shock to me.  There was incidents of where they, apparently they claimed to have murdered a young white conscript who was an ANC supporter on the border, by simulating a snake bite.  It was early in 19 or the second half of 1984 and not to be confused with later attempt in 1989.  That brought very chill winds very close to home, that something like this could happen.
 I had to make the decision whether to stay with this lot or walk out and the correct thing would be to walk out.  I did not do so for the following reasons:  The one was we'd already been told in no uncertain terms if you let the side down you're dead.

MR CHASKALSON: Who told you that?

DR VAN RENSBURG: Doctor Daan Goosen as Managing Director in a formal Directors meeting.  I could see they were not his words, it was obviously an instruction from elsewhere.  I know him well enough and I know he's got a gentle nature but he'd been told, it was my deduction, that we were to understand that clearly, that's the very senior staff of course.

MR CHASKALSON: And you took this threat seriously?