Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, like I am saying it was fortunate that they happened to choose the ELC to meet that night, after having met at CRIC because you said you were late and didn't go to CRIC, so when you entered the building, you didn't know where the Cape Youth were meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, when I entered, they were standing outside the building, and CRIC is basically on the side, I could see them.  And hence we, from there ad hoc decided we would meet there.
	They were standing outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr du Plessis?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry, thank you Mr Chairman.  So the fact of the matter is that you didn't know where they would be going, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sorry?

MR P DU PLESSIS: When you arrived at the Early Learning Centre, you didn't know where the meeting would be, the Cape Youth Congress meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.  It was decided there and then.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was decided there and then.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you weren't there?  You weren't present when it was decided?  You weren't at CRIC?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I have just stated now that they were outside CRIC, when I came there, I could see them, I could go and talk to them, that is what my statement also says.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So, did you actually then go to CRIC and meet them there?  Did you go there or didn't you go there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I didn't go to CRIC, they were standing outside, parked on the pavement.  Look at the Exhibit P2, the (indistinct) version is D1 and D2, that is where their cars were parked.

MR P DU PLESSIS: In any event, let me leave that for a moment.   Did the, perhaps I should see the point, I cannot distinguish.
	The fact of the matter is, I see the building, CRIC and I see the Early Learning Centre, and it is quite some distance apart, isn't it?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It is about 40 metres apart, sir.  40 Metres, and the gate from CRIC to where these guys were parking, was less than 20 metres.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So did you in fact communicate by talking to them and asking them where they were going for the meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: You will see where I parked sir, position C on there, I had to walk across the road, then I saw these guys.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But did you go there sir?  Did you go to them and talk to them, that is the question?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, that is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So  you did?  Just answer the question then.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And then they said that they were going to meet at the ELC, at the Early Learning Centre?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right, it was an ad hoc decision.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now tell me, at what time was the Kewtown Youth Movement's meeting supposed to take place?  The Kewtown Youth Movement's meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We normally met between seven and nine o'clock.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So was it set for seven o'clock?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right, round about there.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And at what time did you arrive there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Ten past eight.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And was that then when you met up with the people from the Youth Congress, then you at that stage, ten past eight, you met up with the people of Cape Youth Congress?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That would be right sir.  And we walked into the foyer.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Of ELC?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now, at that stage, was the meeting of the Kewtown Youth Movement adjourned already?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was unwinding, as I have said, people were starting to come out, and people were starting to talk in the foyer.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So they were standing around socialising?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Some of them did in fact leave or not?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did some of them leave?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Some of them were outside of the building, some of them smoked, etc.  They only left before our meeting, so between ten past eight and twenty five past eight, people were still around there and people were talking.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  And your meeting of the Cape Youth Congress only started at twenty five past eight?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And then only did the people of the Kewtown Youth Movement go home?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not then only, when our meeting started, they had gone home already.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.   So you, your meeting started about ten minutes before the bomb went off?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And while you were standing around there, did you see people from the soccer club who arrived?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And when you went into your meeting, were they there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They were there.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Where were they?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They were in the foyer.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Doing what?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They were chatting.

MR P DU PLESSIS: They were just standing around, chatting?  How many of them?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They were seated.

MR P DU PLESSIS: How many of them?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I saw three, I counted three people.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Three people?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you at that stage, see or could you see the hall in which the bomb exploded?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Where?

MR P DU PLESSIS: From where you were in the foyer?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In the foyer, yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Could you see it?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I could see the hall.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were the lights on?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You saw it personally, you could see into the hall?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you saw that the lights were on?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: You must remember that the people from the Kewtown Youth Movement was coming out of the hall, I could see it.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I see.  And actually if I understand you correctly, until shortly before your meeting started, there were still some of the Kewtown Youth Movement's people in the hall, in the hall itself, where the bomb exploded?  They were standing around there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not in the hall, outside of the hall, but as you, if you look at your front entrance, there are two sets of doors.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: On the one hand side, on the right, there are those windows which you open, almost like (indistinct) windows, on top of one another, which you pull down with one of those things, you can see if the light is burning there.  There are no curtains.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, fine, but the situation is that you are saying that the situation is that you personally looked into the hall?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I could see from where I was standing that the light was burning, I didn't go and open the door.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Okay, were the doors closed?  Were the doors closed?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It could have been, but when the people from Kewtown Youth Movement exited, the lights were on.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Could you see them exit?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you saw them walking out of the door?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And if you could see them walking out of the door, you could see into the hall?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Then the doors were open, sir?  Isn't it?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, those doors have got those pulley arms, they can close again.  If you don't open it completely wide, it closed automatically sir.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did anyone open it completely wide, or not?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not to my recollection.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you see, yes or no?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not to my recollection, they didn't open it completely wide.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Do you still remember that they didn't open it completely wide?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, from my memory it is clear that they didn't open it completely wide.  Because those doors (indistinct)