Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: During February, at the beginning of the attacks people were coming to attack and before they had a meeting at school and there were children at home who were attending the Margot High School, they went to the meeting, we didn't know anything about the meeting, when they entered at the beginning of the attack one of them by the name Scejime happened to drop the gun because he was shot and he died.  I didn't say, I can't say I get it there but I don't know whether it was directly from him because he was holding a big firearm, but I found it somewhere there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And do you know how soon it took the 80 or 60 people who gathered immediately after the ANC had attacked your stronghold, do you know how they managed to get the firearms that they used during the attack in question?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't know how they acquired those firearms.  However, we just discovered that people were armed and we didn't know where they got the firearms.  I can't really say they got them from a specific place.

CHAIRPERSON: Do they walk around armed the whole time?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: At the time of violence people used to be armed in most cases and if a person who is in possession of a firearm will always be carrying the firearm around the place.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Would you estimate how many people were armed on this occasion, is it possible to do that?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I would say there were over ten.  Some were holding home-made guns because there were so many home-made guns at the time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to put one thing to you in the light of what you have just said to Ms Khampepe, she asked you about what guidance you got from your leadership, did you consider that your leadership had let you down?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: You mean - "letting down", can you clarify the question, I don't get it very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me read and see if you agree.
"We saw ourselves in trouble because of our leaders.  They did not teach us, their followers, the aims and objectives of the political parties.  Instead of preaching the truth they allowed us to fight.  It is well-known that these organisations, i.e. the IFP and the ANC have killed a lot of people.  I think each one of them says they are in the struggle.  If one organisation tries to kill another that leads to many unnecessary deaths".
Do you agree with that?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes I do agree with that.  That's my own personal view.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say that instead of preaching the truth the IFP allowed you to fight, is that your view?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Only when I am referring to a leader.  I don't see any reason why we had to fight because if they did sit down and talk about the problems they could have resolved the issue and were not going to fight.

CHAIRPERSON: You see when Mr Rathman asked you some questions you said you didn't have time to consider contacting the leaders because you knew your leaders were not going to attack they would try to cool you down.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's true.  However, it becomes a bit difficult for me to explain.  They were not going to agree that we should go and attack.  However, while I was completing the amnesty application forms I personally stated that if the political leaders were able to stop this from the beginning we shouldn't have got into the situation where we had to fight.

CHAIRPERSON: And the final thing on this matter was when you were asked in your application,
"Were the acts committed in the execution of an order or on behalf or with the approval of an organisation, the organisation concerned, that is the IFP?"
You said,
"It was a revenge".
Do you remember saying that in your application?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 11A.  Why did you steal the chair?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you steal the chair?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: As I have explained I don't know anything about the chair, however I was told in court that I did steal a chair.  I explained that I didn't know about the chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the judgment says at page 72 of the bundle, dealing with your evidence,
"He expressly denied having taken any part in what he described as 'the fight'.  He admitted that he stole one chair of a lounge suite.  Such theft occurred at kraal 4/8".
which is one of the kraals on a map.  Do you remember having given evidence to that effect, or was the Judge incorrect?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I won't disagree with the Judge with regard to this statement and as a first-time offender when I was arrested I wasn't told anything.  When I did my confession statement I didn't know anything and I admitted that I did that because I thought if I agree that I did that this case, which involved a lot of people will be separated from the murder counts, that they found the chair from me and that I did steal the chair, it's not true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Gumbi when Advocate Mpshe put a question to you as to why you committed the offence for which you are applying for amnesty your response was the reason you joined the attackers was in fact to attack the people who had attacked your home, do you recall saying that?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: You mean they attacked our home?  I didn't say that.  I said my home was just above that particular area just next to where they attacked.  They were not - the attack wasn't directed to our house.  I am saying that I was at home on that particular day and I saw them attacking, but it wasn't a direct attack to our family.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Okay.  But the whole object of you joining in the attack was to revenge against the people who had attacked the vicinity around your home?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.  People who were killing our members I had to pay revenge.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now was your attack aimed specifically at the people who had attacked that vicinity or was your attack aimed at any person who was an ANC member?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I couldn't specifically identify the people who were attacking us.  However, the people that we attacked it was an ANC area and there were people who were sometimes involved in the attack on our side.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So your intention was to attack any person who was in that stronghold which was considered to be an ANC stronghold and it was not directed at any particular person?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: During a fight it's so difficult to aim specifically to attack a particular person.  We were many and we intended to attack ANC members whom we knew they stay in particular areas or places.  Anyone who was an ANC member who happened to be in that particular place could have been attacked.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Can I just follow that up.  Mr Gumbi you said you didn't identify the attackers, but did you assume that the attackers were ANC members or supporters?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I didn't see them with my naked eyes but I knew that they were ANC because those were the people we were fighting against.

ADV POTGIETER: She says, the translation says you knew - the question is did you assume?  You didn't see the people, you didn't identify them, did you assume because there was these fighting going on that it must have been ANC members or supporters that attacked your place that particular day?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: They were ANC members, they were the people who started the fight, because if we can go back and investigate we can find out that it was the people, it was the ANC people who started the attacks.  It's not what I assume, it's what I knew happened because I was there.

ADV POTGIETER: And you can't say whether any of those attackers came from this particular area where you launched your own attack?