Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: And there were no other attacks where he was present, that you know of?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Now that we've canvassed this specific statement with you, on your version who did you tell this to?

MR LAX: Can you just repeat the first part of your question, it somehow got cut off in my ears.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, Chair.
	Now that we've canvassed the contents of this document, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say finish?

MR LAX: Canvassed.

MR LOWIES: I may have said finished.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just interested whether we're finished with this statement.

MR LAX: That's being hopeful.

MR LOWIES: Now that we've canvassed this document with you, who do you say did you give this information to contained in this document?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said a lot of people came to me and took statements from me, people like Mongezi, Brian.  I do not know which statement you are referring to.

MR LOWIES: I'm referring to the one which we've just canvassed.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a statement which you did not sign.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Is that the one?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is a statement where on your own you've just mentioned that it was a mistake of you to have mentioned Michael Ramakau.  Do you remember the statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, now what counsel wants to find out, can you recall the person to whom you made this statement?  If you can, say so, if you can't, say so.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I did mention before that it was taken by Mongezi and that is the statement that is unsigned.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: You think that the unsigned statement is a statement that you made to Mongezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it must be it.  Yes, because it is unsigned.

CHAIRPERSON: You see because we're talking precisely about that statement.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  It was the statement taken at Medium C in Leeukop.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.  You again have the tendency of swallowing your last words, speak up.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: And you say this is the statement you made to Mongezi in Medium C in Leeukop?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Nosenga, I'm a bit puzzled here, because this statement says in itself in its first paragraph, that you're presently serving a sentence at Maximum B Prison in Leeuhof.  So that's the one we're talking about, the one which in it says that you are at Maximum B in Leeuhof.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I'm not incarcerated in Leeuhof.  Presently I am in Sun City.  I only came this side for the purposes of the hearing.

MR LAX: You're not understanding me, let me try again.  You were asked about the statement which appears at pages 8, 9 and 10 and which starts in front of you there - and your lawyer can show you what I'm talking about, you've been asked a whole lot of questions about this statement and amongst other things it's the statement where you yourself, as the Chairperson has said, volunteered the information that the mention of Ramakau must have been a mistake that you made.  Now you've just told us that this is the one that Mongezi took from you, because it's unsigned and it mentions Medium C, Leeukop.  Do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Now what I'm asking you is, this statement doesn't mention Medium C, Leeukop anywhere on it, so that's why I'm confused.  Do you understand why I'm confused?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, yes, I do understand.  Two people came to me to take statements, Mongezi and Mr Brian.  The first statement was made at Leeukop.  Mongezi is the one who took the statement from me.  That was the first statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think what my colleague wanted to clarify is that if this statement that we've been dealing with was taken in Leeukop, then as you have pointed out yourself in your evidence earlier on, it probably is a mistake in the statement when it says you are in Leeuhof.  Is that ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At the moment - you're not at Leeukop at the moment?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I'm not in Leeukop.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am in a the small prison in Leeuhof, having been transferred from Sun City.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, have you been at Leeuhof since you began to attend these hearings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I only came here on Saturday.

CHAIRPERSON: This last Saturday?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You will recall that the Committee also said at the beginning of this year, in January, I think about the 18th I think it was, ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: This year?  I started attending this hearing on the 3rd, on Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: The hearings started last year and we continued in January this year and you were present in January.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What's that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was present here in January.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, when you were attending these hearings in January, were you being detained in  Leeuhof?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was in Stoffberg.

CHAIRPERSON: In Stoffberg?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was in Stoffberg in January.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's a maximum prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that in Vereeniging?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I would say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR LOWIES: You had always been detained at a maximum prison, not so, except for those three days waiting to be transferred to Leeukop?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At the moment I'm at the small prison in Leeuhof, but yes, it's true, I've always been detained in the maximum prisons.

MR LOWIES: And the only reason why you're detained here is for transport purposes and after this you will go back to the maximum, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you come to these hearings last year?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, in January, but I was in Stoffberg.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean last year, in August.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't recall because I think when the TRC sat for the first time, it sat at Sebokeng.

MS TANZER: If I may clarify?  In August he was present here at the TRC, but he was not watching, he wasn't actually, he didn't have access to what was going on here, he was sitting in the police bus and in fact at that stage he didn't hear anything in the proceedings.  Only in January was the first time he actually got access to the proceedings and heard the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought so, yes.  And that was just once, was it?

MS TANZER: That was - what do you mean once?

CHAIRPERSON: He was here for one day, was he?

MS TANZER: Yes, for one day.

CHAIRPERSON: That's when you - yes.

MR LOWIES: Do you agree with what your counsel said, that you were here in August once in a bus and that you did not attend the hearings here?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Because I can clearly recall your evidence yesterday, which was to the effect that when you were here you heard that you, or that there was a denial that the police were present at Boipatong and that as a result thereof you decided to make application.

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Lowies, with all due respect, ...(indistinct) with two different things.  The occasion that Ms Tanzer is referring to is when he just came here once in August and only remained in the police vehicle, bus, as the case may be, where he did not come in either in this hall or sit elsewhere to watch the proceedings.  That is what he is referring to.

MR LOWIES: Yes, precisely my point.  I would like to explore this ...(intervention)