Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

MR HEWITT: Let me give you the date, it might help.  Date 4th of September 1992.  Would that be your position on the 4th of September 1992?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I was Chairman of the ANC, Southern Natal.

MR HEWITT: Right.  If it is sent by Siphiwe Nyanda, Chief of Staff and the message is MHQ would like to inform you that it has been approved that the following comrades in your area will be functioning on a full time basis for MK regional structure and salaried.
	And then the names given are, I think it is an abbreviation for comrades, the comrades are Gaya Numalo, Sipho Sithole, Cheeky Truto and Mavivi Ngubezi.
	Would you have a look at this document please?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: It is not necessary, you have read it.

MR HEWITT: But would that have come to your, do you recall it?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I will hand it over to the MK, if he is referring to MK, it could have been handed over to the MK structure.

MR HEWITT: Attention Chairperson/Regional Secretary, would that not have come to you?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: It would have come to me, but I would have referred it to the people you are saying it was directed to in the first instance.

MR HEWITT: What I am interested in, as I have indicated to you, it was sent by Siphiwe Nyanda.  Did you receive documents addressed to you which you handed over?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, if it was addressed to me, I might have seen it.  I don't know why you are making a mountain out of this moth (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: What are we getting at here Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: Are you saying this wouldn't have been addressed to you?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, I am saying if it was addressed to the Chair and Secretary, obviously I might have seen it and passed it over to the people concerned.

MR HEWITT: Thank you, all right.   Just have a look at it Mr Radebe.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Okay.  Well, yes, but what are you ...

MR HEWITT: I just want to know whether in the course of your position, you would have received directions or instructions, written or otherwise from Siphiwe Nyanda?

CHAIRPERSON: That sounds from the, the contents that you have read out, just sounds like a relaying of information, it is not an instruction or a directive.

MR HEWITT: All I am trying to establish is, did you receive information from the present Chief of the Army, Siphiwe or instructions or relaying of information?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: For the purposes of Self Defence Units?

MR HEWITT: Yes.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, I have never, I have said it.  I can say it again, I never.  I received instructions from Chris Hani as I have indicated.

MR HEWITT: So Nyanda didn't have anything to do with that at all?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Nothing, as far as I am aware.

MR HEWITT: All right.  This particular direction or memo or whatever one calls it, would that have nothing to do with SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Nothing at all.  The names of those comrades who are referred to, were members of MK Southern Natal command, which was a legal entity as Umkhonto weSizwe  was unbanned on the 2nd of February 1990.
	They had legal authority to operate like any other military structure, like the SADF at that time.  There is nothing sinister about that.

MR HEWITT: I am not suggesting that, I am just trying to get clarity on that, so that we have a complete picture.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: That talks about that it must be paid, that they are full time?

MR HEWITT: Yes.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: That is how I understand that.

MR HEWITT: So Mr Sipho Sithole, the gentleman sitting next to you on your right, he was then functioning on a full time basis for MK and salaried at the time?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Just bear with me Mr Chairman.  Just one further point Mr Radebe, the person Thami Mhlomi, did you ever come into contact with him during your various functions?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I know him very well, he was the Secretary of COSATU in Natal and now he is a member of the Provincial Legislature.

MR HEWITT: Was he involved in any way in picking up weaponry or in distributing it for SDU purposes or any other purposes?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I don't know, I think you should ask him.

MR HEWITT: No, I am asking you, in your position, whether in fact you ever had dealings with him, that is all.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, I never.  I dealt with my comrade here on my right.

MR HEWITT: Never Mr Thami Mhlomi?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: At no stage?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman.  Mr Radebe, how soon after your return were you arrested, in 1986?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I was arrested on the 6th of April 1986.

MS THABETE: When did you return?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I was on arrested on the same day.

MS THABETE: On the same day, okay.  Immediately after your release in 1990, you have stated in front of us that you monitored violence and you tried to promote peace in KZN.  How did you go about doing this?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: What I did, I was employed by the National Association of Democratic Lawyers.  It was the policy of the broad democratic movement at the time that they should pursue peace so that we can be able to have a peaceful political activity in kwaZulu Natal.
	What I did was to promote peace wherever there was violence.  We also interacted with communities, we even held various workshops, even on people's courts, so that we changed this whole paradigm of kangaroo courts, so that people must be able to gear towards this transition period.
	I also during the time participated in many peace initiatives between the ANC and the IFP, starting in 1990 when I was here in Southern Natal, I was one of those people who were at the forefront of the signing of the Royal Peace Accord of January 1991 and also I was a representative of the ANC in the formation of the National Peace Accord that took place in Johannesburg.  It was the 15th of September 1991.
	All these initiatives were aimed at stabilising the region of Natal and also making sure that our people must, even if they differ politically, they must not resort to violence.

MS THABETE: Okay, you said you even held workshops on people's courts in communities.  Can you mention a few communities that you actually went to?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, we had workshops in many areas.  I can recall Umkababa, we had various workshops there in Port Shepstone, kwaMashu, Ndwedwe, we even had a very big workshop at the University of Natal, where we dealt extensively with the issue of people's courts.

MS THABETE: Okay.  In the Self Defence Units in the communities, did you have MK cadres that were responsible for seeing that the whole defence unit situation was in place?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, we actually made a political call to all those comrades who were members of Umkhonto weSizwe , wherever they are.  If communities are under attack and the communities decide to form Self Defence Units, that they must support those initiatives and play a supportive role in training and also in arming those units.
	But at all times, these structures as I have repeatedly pointed out, were community structures who were playing a supportive role to those initiatives.

MS THABETE: Okay, in the MK cadres carrying out the supportive role in the communities, did you specify what authority they must have and the boundaries as well of how far they could engage in that authority?