Human Rights Violation Hearings — Lusikisiki — 1997-03-24

MR SANDI: When was this?

ADOLPHUS CELE: It was in 1961. They were kept in Dimuseni and then were taken to Pietermaritzburg where their court case was.  They were sentenced to six months imprisonment but they ended up staying for 11 years.  One of them wrote a letter saying that the food that they were given was terrible..(end of tape) ... methol(?).It was clear that they were being poisoned.  When he came back he could not swallow anything.  He was taken to hospital in Durban, there was a man in the hall who took him to the doctor.

UNKNOWN: Mr Cele, thank you very much, we want to talk about the other incidents now.  There are questions here that you are going to be asked as you're sitting there.

ADOLPHUS CELE: Thank you.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, because the evidence given here was documented I just want to ask a few questions as they gave a detailed report of what happened there is danger that the evidence that is being put before us is too long and we miss some of the important aspects. I want to ask that when you were being shot at on the mountain, did those people who were at the bottom of the mountain, was it just the police that were
shooting or police and soldiers?

ADOLPHUS CELE: It was a mixture of police and soldiers.

MR SANDI: You say that they started shooting at 9, are you talking about 9 am.

ADOLPHUS CELE: Yes from 9 am.

MR SANDI: You say that this stopped at 6 pm.

ADOLPHUS CELE: Yes Sir that is so.

MR SANDI: Mr Gxabu, you said that they were coming from the top and you were down at the bottom.

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: They were all over, some at the top and some at the bottom.

MR SANDI: You say that you were not armed?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Nobody was armed except for Johnson who had his own gun, as he had just been helping Mr Stofile.

MR SANDI: What were the court of law findings, did they find that you were not armed?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: They could not prove their accusations that we were armed.  They said that their helicopter was being shot at.  It was clear the Mr Johnson's gun was not specialised enough to have reached the helicopter.

MR SANDI: Therefore it is clear that the police were lying, you were not armed at all?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: It is so Sir.

MR SANDI: If someone was armed amongst you, would you have realised it?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: We would have known because we would have relied on that.

MR SANDI: At the court of law, when the police said that you were attacking them, was there a police member that was injured?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Not even one Sir, this is why Ndayi made an
example and also asked that if a policeman was injured he should come forward.

MR SANDI: Is it Mr Sachs that you are talking about, is it Judge B Sachs?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: It is Cele who was talking about him. Mr Albie Sachs was representing us as an attorney.

MR SANDI: After they had shot at you, you say that they came to your houses as well? Is that so?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Yes that is so.

MR SANDI: Did they do any harm at home, like burning down your plantations, maybe also harassed your wife?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: What they would do at home is to harass our families when they realised that the person they were looking for was not there, they would sell milk(?) all over.  They were just out to get us.

MR SANDI: Thank you Sir.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: June Crichton?

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Mr Gxabu I want to go back to just one point you made, you spoke about the white flag being raised.  You said that at that time when the flag was raised people were sitting on the ground, is that correct?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Yes.

JUNE CRICHTON: The white flag is an international thing of peace, you say that the shooting began as the white flag was raised and the people were sitting?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Yes it is so.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you, and one other short question, you said that the people were carried down to the house of somebody.  What was the name of that man in that house where the bodies and the injured were carried?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Mr Siqaqa.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you that's all I have to ask you, thank you Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Reverend Xundu?

REV XUNDU: I just want clarity on the role of the chiefs because it seems as if the chiefs are being accused.  How many chiefs were in the struggle and members of the ANC?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Two would not come to the meetings as such but they never ran away from us.  Then there was another chief that would come now and again.  The boers would ask him why he did not run away, and he would say the reason why he was not harmed by the people.

REV XUNDU: What I'm trying to say is, the role of the chiefs, was it for the people or against them?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Messrs Kwele and Modekai were for the people.

REV XUNDU: Therefore what you are saying is that most of the chiefs were against the people?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Tiny Maya?

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Mr Gxabu, I thought whilst you were giving evidence that when during the court case some bodies had to be exhumed for post mortems, did that happen?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Yes that happened.

MS MAYA: How many people were buried?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Eleven.

MS MAYA: Is this the number that you had initially anyway?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: It is the number we had when we buried the people but even more people passed away after detention.

MS MAYA: I asked this question because I want to know the
people who disappeared, do you know what happened to them eventually?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: We don't know, they were taken while we were detained.

MS MAYA: Just one more question, you talked about a place where people were detained at Mqambathi, can someone tell me what happened at these places?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: One of the gentlemen is not here, but the people like Maoma Ndigezela would be taken there, they would hang a person in a tree when there was a court case.  He would stay on the tree for seven days.

MS MAYA: How would a person be hung?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: They'd hang you in a tree and beat you up.

MS MAYA: Is this the same place in Mqambathi?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: It is in Mqambathi.

MS MAYA: Thank you.

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: There was a lady who sang a song that there is no God like You.  This woman was beaten up because she was praying because we were being beaten up.

MS MAYA: Was that a lady?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Yes it was a lady but I forget her name.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gxabu I just have a few questions as well. First of all ...(no interpretation).

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: As we were on the mountain we wanted clarity whether they were speaking the same language as us.  It was clear that they also had grievances to the government.

UNKNOWN: In which region is Mxandelili?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: It is in Bizana.

UNKNOWN: This struggle, if I have understood you well, you said that it included Lusikisiki, Flagstaff, Ntabankhulu, Mount Ellis?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: That is so Sir.

UNKNOWN: Who was organising the meeting, was it the man from Pondoland?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Yes in our region it was Wanna Johnson.

UNKNOWN: No one from outside Pondoland would come and help?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Nobody.

UNKNOWN: Where did the money come from?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: We would pay about R35 to help with the struggle.

UNKNOWN: This endeavour was on the shoulders of the Pondo people?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Yes Sir that is so.

UNKNOWN: The ANC, where did it participate?

CLEMENT KHEHLANA GXABU: Wanna Johnson was a member of the ANC. The thing is the ANC was banned.  This is why we referred to it as Kongo.

UNKNOWN: I just want to ask about the chiefs.