Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: As far as I can recall Tinus Jacobs, he resigned some time afterwards.  I don't know exactly how long he resigned from SAA and started up his own business as a tour operator.

DR KLATZOW: In the name of Crown Travel?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: As far as I know, yes.  Yes it is so.

DR KLATZOW: Who is his foremost client in that business, his best client?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: I wouldn't be able to tell you.

DR KLATZOW: Isn't it true that the SAA is his best client and that he gets a lot of work from SAA?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: It's possible but that is not within my field of knowledge. But it is possible if he is a tour operator and as far as I know he is established in South Africa, then you would assume that he would do business with SAA.

DR KLATZOW: Are you also aware of a man called Vernon Nadel, he's waiting outside.

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: Yes I know Vernon.

DR KLATZOW: What is his function at SAA at that stage?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: At what stage are you referring to?

DR KLATZOW: The stage of the Helderberg disaster.

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: I don't know.  I didn't know him at that stage.

DR KLATZOW: Right.  Very well thank you.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Mr Willemse I have a couple of questions.  I would like you to think back, I'm sure you know Mr Flippie Look.  He is still a pilot at SAA.

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: Yes.  It's difficult to say, if that is the person that I am thinking of now then, I'm speculating now, I have to add, I did meet Flippie Look once during a meeting which we had with SAPA, now that was quite a number of years ago.  This was at some place outside Johannesburg.  SAPA  is the South African Pilots Association.
 We met with them, we meaning South African Airways management and the management of the Pilots Association but then I have to add that I suspected he was there.

MS TERREBLANCHE: In 1985 Mr Flippie Look told us that he met you in Mauritius at the airport.  You were there with your family.  Can you recall that?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: No.  I think he was the pilot of the plane but.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Were you in Mauritius in 1985?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: I don't know, it's possible.  I would have to go and check.  If I was there with my family I was probably there on leave, on holiday.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Yes, but if I told you what he told me as to what he told you, maybe that will help you.  He said that in June 1985 he landed at Tel Aviv Airport and whilst they were still in the plane looking or watching a movie, the cargo was off-loaded and he peeped out and there was a crate which had been broken and he said that he saw a missile inside this crate and this was confirmed to him by the freight or cargo controller at Ben Gurion Airport, the SAA man there.
 A week afterwards another South African pilot and I think you know Mr Deon Storm?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: Yes, I do.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Exactly the same happened to him.  Mr Look said that he expressed his concern about the situation to you and said that what happened then was that he had hoped that you would be able to explain this, clarify matters.  But he was later called in and told that Mr Van Veer and Mr Mitchell had gone to Armscor and obtained assurances that that would not happen again.  Can you recall this conversation?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: No I can't recall it.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Can you not recall that you ever heard from anybody that they were worried about the cargo which they had to convey on SAA planes?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: Once again as far as I can remember you're talking about '85 so it's a long time ago, I can't remember, I would have to go and check up whether I was in Mauritius in '85 but as far as I can remember there was no such a conversation with me.  I'm not saying that it isn't so, I just can't remember it.  And I also can't remember that anybody had a conversation with me or expressed concern about cargo which we were conveying on SAA planes.  Cargo had a very low profile in the '80's, on our flights.

MS TERREBLANCHE: You don't have to give a definite figure or even a definite percentage, but can you recall how much of your cargo in the mid '80's came from Taiwan and Israel?  What percentage of your cargo went along those routes?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: I have no idea.

MS TERREBLANCHE: So you didn't target certain countries as being more lucrative than others?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: Any cargo which became available on any route where the tariff was worthwhile we would have accepted that.  As far as I can remember our biggest concentration of cargo was from Germany into South Africa because I know we had a very active team and as far as I can remember Germany was the only South African Airways depot under the control of the Germans and which is very active in obtaining cargo.
 The system in Europe was that they moved cargoes by means of trucks and they concentrated on certain stations so if you ask me what were the places where there was the highest concentration of cargo then as far as I know and can remember it was from Frankfurt and also from Italy.  We had a considerable amount of freight from Italy as a result of the fact that they used trucks extensively.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Were you ever aware of the fact that SAA conveyed goods for Armscor?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: Not specifically.  If you're telling me that we conveyed goods for Armscor and it was good cargo then I would say to you yes, we probably would have done it.

MS TERREBLANCHE: What is good cargo?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: That means cargo which generates a high tariff.  I would compare that instance with the following.  From South Africa we often sat with cargoes of perishable goods such as flowers etc., and at that stage it was a very low tariff cargo.  It was subsidised to quite a high degree by the Department of Agriculture so the income which SAA got from that was very low.
 And it was important for an airline to carry cargo which had a small volume but high weight because that's where you made your money.  So if Armscor was a client offering cargo falling into that category then you would rather have conveyed that and perhaps rejected flowers and perishables.  But that would have applied to any other supplier.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Thank you.  Dr Klatzow?

CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Wildschut?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Mr Willemse I just need to clarify for myself, you have a legal background?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: That's right yes.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: And your interest and part of the reason why you came on board, pardon the pun, to SAA was because of your interest in policy?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: My interest in?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Policy, policy development.

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: Was my interest in policy, that's right.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Policy, yes, particularly airline policy and you were looking at open skies policy and so on from the US.  And is it true to say that somebody whose involved in policy would be involved where the airline is experiencing difficulties such as accidents and so on that one would then want to re-look at what has happened, particularly with accidents to inform policy?