Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-01

MR HUGO: And you then arrived at Brig Van Rensburg's office and he told you to report to his house the next day in Nokwe Park.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: You say that Van Rensburg did not at that stage give you an indication of what it was about, but simply told you to report to his house at six o'clock the next morning.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, he said that Deon Nieuwoudt would arrive at my house and that we should go to his house together.

MR HUGO: Correct, that's how you put it in the statement.  Did Mr Nieuwoudt in fact arrive at your house a pre-appointed time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, he was on time.

MR HUGO: What happened thereafter?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: After that we walked to Genl Van Rensburg's house.  We found the general at home and we took seats in his lounge.

MR HUGO: And what was told to you then?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Genl Van Rensburg asked Capt Nieuwoudt to explain to me what the purpose of his visit was.

MR HUGO: It was then explained to you that two members of the security police and a former ANC member were causing trouble for them?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: And Nieuwoudt then told you that there was also an issue of fraud and that certain cheques meant for leftists organisations and unions had been intercepted?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: And that the cheques were then used for their own benefit?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: Nieuwoudt also said that there was a lot of pressure on them to charge these members and that they feared that when these members were charged, they would reveal certain offences in which the security police had been involved?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: As I understood it in the context, these members were threatening to expose violations and offences which took place in the past, should they be charged, and you then further testified that Genl Van Rensburg said or asked you whether you would help them and you understood that they should be killed?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: Let us just stop there for a moment.  The basis on which these types, this type of order was given to the subordinates, how was it done?  Was it done expressly or was it done by way of implication?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It was done implicitly or by way of euphemisms, I could for instance, say that - let me give you an example.  Words would be used to the effect that the people must go or the people must say good-bye, and that meant that the people should be killed.  There was no specific instruction like go and kill the people.  In this case it was said that they should be prevented from talking, but the general purport of the conversation was to the effect that they had to be killed.

MR HUGO: You then further state that there was a brief discussion as to whether an ambush should be set up or whether explosives should be used.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that was discussed very briefly.

MR HUGO: You say then that arrangements were made that you would meet at the technical division and that there should be a meeting with Mr Waal du Toit at the technical division?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct.  Arrangements had to be made because Waal du Toit was a very active man and you couldn't just walk into his office and find him there. I knew him well enough to know that.

MR HUGO: Thereafter, you went back to your house and can you recall what then happened to Mr Nieuwoudt after this and the discussion at Genl Van Rensburg's office?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: He left the house with me and he walked as far as my house with me.  However, I didn't see any vehicles in the area and which were foreign to that area, and I didn't know how he got there. I assumed that he had his own vehicle.  I have no recollection of him leaving there with me.

MR HUGO: You further state that you went back to Genl Van Rensburg and you asked him why these people should be killed for fraud?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I drove to head office and I saw Genl Van Rensburg in his office and I once again asked him why they should be killed for having committed fraud.  And that is when he told me that the Goniwe case was involved here and many other similar cases.

MR HUGO: Can I just ask you, when Genl Van Rensburg told you that what it was about, was the Goniwe affair, what was your perception of the gravity of the proposed operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Well, that it was critically important because although he didn't elaborate on the Goniwe matter, I had already shortly after the Goniwe murders learnt who the members or some of the members were, that were responsible for it.

MR HUGO: Were you aware of the fact that this was an extremely high profile matter and could be extremely damaging to the security police, in case this information should leak out?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I have personally believed that it would bring about the destruction of the security police.

MR HUGO: You further say that you went to the technical division in Rebecca Street and that is where you met Mr Waal du Toit. What was discussed between yourself and Mr Du Toit?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Between myself and Du Toit and Capt Nieuwoudt, there was a detailed discussion of the shape that this operation should take, whether it should be an ambush or whether we should use explosives.  The explosives option was the popular choice in that it had the best chance of success at that stage.

ADV DE JAGER: I just want to determine, you said you have gone to Du Toit and there you discussed the matter with him. Where did Nieuwoudt come from then?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I don't know because I couldn't recollect that he had left my house together with me or that he had come from headquarters to the offices of Waal du Toit. I can't remember. I don't even have a vague recollection.

MR HUGO: At what time more or less did that discussion take place with Du Toit?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It was between eight and ten that morning, but I can't give an exact time.  I can remember that I went there from head office but it would have been of no avail to call him at his home at eight o'clock, I had to meet him at his office, because Waal du Toit was a very active man and you just couldn't go to his office and find him there. I had that experience. You had to make an appointment and tell him specifically that you were coming to see him.

MR HUGO: So as far as you remember, there were about two hours past between the meeting at Van Rensburg's house where you and Nieuwoudt and Van Rensburg were present, until this meeting where Du Toit became involved.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I say between eight and ten. It is putting it widely, but I can't give an exact time.

MR HUGO: But the point you are making is, you did not go directly from the Van Rensburg's meeting to the technical division to talk to Du Toit?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: We could have gone there directly, but he wouldn't have been in his office.

MR HUGO: What you are saying,  you did not go there directly?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, I know that I went to head office and I can remember that I have made certain arrangements there.

MR HUGO: You are also saying that after these events, you returned to Vlakplaas and there you ordered Mr Ras and Mr Snyman to prepare themselves.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: This also includes Vermeulen.

MR HUGO: There is one other aspect which is not clear to me.  You are saying that you and Du Toit discussed an ambush or explosives.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, this was together with Capt Nieuwoudt.

MR HUGO: Would it have been an ambush, what did the technical division have to do with that?