Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

UNKNOWN: Okay.  Now, I am not sure whether Mr Brode 
was here all the time.  But Mr Gqomfa said that after he got into the 
vehicle, he was one of the attackers, he heard shots fired in his 
direction and he responded by shooting in the direction where the 
shots came from and at no stage was he challenged on that 
statement.

MR PRIOR: With respect, Mr Chairman, I have a recollection that 
it was put to the applicant that he wasn't fired at.  And I speak 
under correction.

UNKNOWN: I think we need to find that, it was never put to 
Mr Gqomfa that ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You can find that, but put your question 
nevertheless.

UNKNOWN: I am just putting it, I think it is important then to 
clear this up because Mr Brode, I am just putting it to you Mr 
Cerqueira, Mr Brode, if he was here, and if he was with you and saw 
more or less given detail here and there, that he saw more or less 
what you saw and heard what you heard, it was never as far as Mr 
Gqomfa's statement is concerned, as far as his evidence is 
concerned, it was never put to him that shots were not fired and that 
he is either mistaken or that he is lying.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sir, like you say I wasn't here so I don't know.  
I don't know, but I would also like to at some stage to ask Mr 
Gqomfa, is it, is that the gentleman's name, is it Mr Gqomfa?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Gqomfa, if the three of us, which one of us 
was shooting at him, because we were being shot at.  I had nothing 
in my hand, Mr Brode had nothing in his hand, why was he shooting 
at Mr Brode and myself? 
	There were four of us standing there?

UNKNOWN: But we know from your evidence ... 
(intervention)

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: If he says that my brother was shooting at him, 
how come did he shoot at us in the first place?  Does he also say 
that I had something in my hand or that Mr Brode or that Mr 
Michael had something in his hand?

UNKNOWN: Mr Cerqueira, we also know from your evidence 
and from what Mr Brode said that your brother had run out, even 
before the two of you got to him.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sorry, could you repeat that?

JUDGE WILSON: That was after the three of them had been out, 
they had been shot at, they have gone back into the restaurant.  It 
was then that they started looking for the brother, they had not seen 
the brother outside when the three of them were outside.  Is that not 
quite clear from  his evidence?

UNKNOWN: I am not sure whether that is so clear Judge.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, that is what he said and up to now, you 
haven't challenged it Mr Arendse.  He said Brode went out first, he 
came out and the other colleague came out.  They then started 
shooting at them, and he pulled Brode back into the restaurant.  You 
put that to him a moment ago that he pulled Brode back.

UNKNOWN: I also put it to him that Brode said he ran inside, 
looked for his brother, this is on page 47 he called at Cerqueira to 
take his firearm held behind the bar counter into his hand.

JUDGE WILSON: That's after he had been shot at, start at the 
bottom of page 46 "as fire was aimed at him, he realised that they 
were shooting at him from the motor vehicle, he swung around to 
run inside."

UNKNOWN: Then he runs inside and he realises that 
Cerqueira is not inside.

JUDGE WILSON: He has spoken throughout and this witness has, 
of being shot at while the three of them were outside.  They were 
not shooting at that stage.  You can't ignore that Mr Arendse.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, I think in fairness to you, you are 
putting to this witness what Gqomfa said.  Gqomfa said that he saw 
somebody or he heard somebody firing at him, whereupon he fired at 
that person, he shot at that person.  You are putting that question to 
this witness.

UNKNOWN: That is correct Mr Chairman, there is no basis 
for Judge Wilson intervening in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.

JUDGE WILSON: What I am suggesting Mr Arendse, you were 
putting it on the basis that that is why Gqomfa began shooting, 
because somebody was shooting at him.
	But there is the evidence of this witness that Gqomfa had 
already shot at them even if the brother went out afterwards with a 
gun.

UNKNOWN: I don't propose taking this point any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cerqueira, in fairness to the applicants, 
Counsel says that this is what the applicant said.  Now, I don't want 
you to argue back, you are given a chance to admit or deny whether 
that is what happened and that he, Mr Gqomfa, fired only after 
somebody else had fired at him.  That somebody else was your 
brother, that is what he is putting to you because that is what Mr 
Gqomfa had said.
	Now, from the answer you had given, it seems that you 
disagree with that?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I do Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, just say that you disagree with that.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I disagree.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, Mr Arendse.

UNKNOWN: Did you say yesterday Mr Cerqueira, that you 
made a statement to the Police or that you don't understand why 
they didn't take a statement from you at all?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, I said they took a statement from me the 
following day and the gentleman wrote it down.  It was Mr Lennon 
Knipe was there and some other Police Officer was there in civilian 
clothes and he took me to the counter and I said what I saw, and he 
wrote it down.

UNKNOWN: And you made that statement, you know they 
usually ask you to take the oath and so on, and you signed the 
statement?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: If you are asking me if I took the oath, I can't 
remember, but he did definitely take the statement.

UNKNOWN: Can you remember signing the statement?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I think so.  I could be under correction, but I 
think so.

UNKNOWN: Let me just read to you what Mr Gqomfa said in 
his written statement.  Unfortunately we don't have a transcript 
available of what he said when he was giving evidence.
	He says the attack lasted for about two to three minutes.  I 
then withdrew last.  The others were already in the car which was 
idling and was moving very, very slowly in the direction of the robot 
against the one way.
	After I got into the car, when we approached the robot, some 
shots were fired in my direction.  I rolled down the window and 
opened fire.  I now know that the fire which I had returned, had hit 
one Jose Cerqueira and had fatally wounded him.  That is what he 
said.  Do you want to comment on that?

CHAIRPERSON: You have already put that to him.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse, Mr Gqomfa can say what he likes. 
 There was no shots fired at him, certainly not from myself or Mr 
Brode or Mike or for that matter, from my point of view, from my 
brother, because if he had fired shots with a gun, the gun would 
have been lying next to his body.  And when I came out, the only 
thing that was lying next to his body was the pouch, a whole lot of 
blood and nothing else.  So I don't see how he could have shot with 
a pouch.
	So I think Mr Gqomfa is not telling the truth.

UNKNOWN: Is it possible that the gun could have been in the 
pouch?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, I don't think so because if we take a similar 
gun and try and fit it in that pouch, I don't think it could fit in there.

UNKNOWN: Tell, us then, what gun are we talking about 
here?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: We are talking about a long barrel 45.

UNKNOWN: Yes, we are talking about a pistol?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Semi automatic pistol.

UNKNOWN: And my instructions are that the shots that came 
from the direction of where Machados is, came from a pistol.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I don't know Sir, that is what you are telling 
me, I don't know.

UNKNOWN: Yes, now you told us earlier, and I understand 
and I agree with you, everything happened very quickly.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.