Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Once he was busy doing the frog jump, when he gets tired he'd be kicked - he must tell us that he's tired then he'll be hit with an open hand that he must not tell us he was tired, he must tell us the truth.
	Baba Khuzela.  He also is the same as the three on the list above.  We took him for frog jumps, we clapped him, we kicked him in the Violent Street.  He's now mentally disturbed.  This boy he is mentally disturbed because Sergeant Mamome informed us we should make him a chicken piece.  
	When I talk about a chicken piece, I would explain it in this way so that you should know what kind of a thing is that -  I will try to demonstrate.  You would sit this way with your hand tied on the legs, then you put a broomstick under your knees with the two tables, then you'd pull you up with the hands tied on the legs.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In the Transvaal they call that an aeroplane, you call it chicken piece in the Free State?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It might be so Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But who is this person, I'm not so sure whether you're still talking about Baba Khuzela?  Are you still talking about Baba Khuzela or are you talking about number 7?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I'm on number 7 because I finished with Baba Khuzela with the frog jumps, I'm talking about Kaizer.  I remember his surname - I don't as whether I should say Kaizer's surname.  Should I?  I just remembered it now.  That is Mohlaola - M-o-h-l-a-o-l-a.  He was a COSAS member at ...[inaudible] high school.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we go back to Baba Khuzela for a moment, is he the one who is mentally disturbed now?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, that is Kaizer Mohlaola who's mentally disturbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Baba Khuzela is the person who's house was also burnt by you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

ADV MEMANI: You may proceed Mr Motsamai.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We'd go no to the 8th person.

ADV MEMANI: I don't think you had finished on the person.  What happened after you made him do the chicken piece?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: After the chicken piece - we'd do it for a long time, we'd leave him there whilst he was hanging on the two tables then he was stretching.  The pace would go right on the knees.  I believe even the whole body was affected because he was hanging in the air.  Because we were influenced by Sergeant Mamome that we must make him an informer by force.  He denied whilst - he denied to be an informer though we continued with that exercise.
	This one of Citi Mzuzwana.

ADV MEMANI: Go on.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was still in that office.  We brought him in that office.  I don't think I've assaulted him in any way.  I used to know that he was a member of commanders where we were supposed to go and fetch them in the morning hours.  Concerning his assault - he was assaulted by other people, not myself.

ADV MEMANI: I think what the witness was saying was one of persons in respect of whom he had been instructed to go and collect and detain but he was assaulted by other people, not me.

ADV DE JAGER: Kindly continue.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: James Khotsisile Thloloe.  This one you used to assault him, even on the streets together with Mamome.  In that assault of myself and Sergeant Mamome, he managed to cross borders.  He joined the MK or Umkhonto weSizwe.
	When we used to meet him around the streets, he was supposed to run away because he used to know when we assaulted him, even on the streets so that he must stop all the activities of RMC.  He was the one who used to distribute the papers of RMC.  They used to use him to distribute pamphlets around the location.  It ends there.
	This one of Mr Thabatha who was a teacher at Vulamasango.  He was a member of UDF.  He was among the ones who were campaigning this RMC issue.  He was in our office - he was assaulted but I'm not the one who assaulted him.  This relates who'll know themselves that have taken part in that assault.
	Jeje.  He is under the same category of Oupa.  He has done the frog jumps, claps and kicks.  He was kicked - we tried to recruit him.
	White Mohapi.  He also falls under the same category under the instructions of Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw -  Lieutenant Shaw.  He has done frog jumps because he was the Chairman of COSAS in Free State.  His assaults were greater than the rest of the people so that he must stop this activity - stop organising so that COSAS should develop and grow.  I still remember after the frog jumps, he was taken by Warrant Officer Calitz into his office.  I was there - it was Calitz, myself and Mamome.  
	What happened there - his eye on his left-hand side can't see properly but the one on the right-hand side is still clear.  I can't remember well in which sight but what happened there - this man Calitz he went to the side of the visually impaired eye and then he took a sack, then they took a broomstick - that is Calitz, then he hit this boy with - on the hear regularly.  He tried to pull himself out of the sack but he was not successful and they continued to assault him on the head saying, he doesn't understand - he is influencing other children not to go to school.  He's organising COSAS activities - he must stop organising for COSAS.
	During the time when he was hitting him on the head and Mamome holding him, I went to the passage and closed the door.  He was screaming but they pulled the sack on the mouth so that he should not scream louder and people outside would hear him or know what's happening.

ADV MEMANI: Did you say that you also went to close the window at some stage?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I closed the door - I closed the door which I went through - in the room where they were.
	Moses Seheri.   My pardon, Moses Seheri is one of the people who were fetched but because he had an in-depth knowledge about African National Congress and Umkhonto weSizwe, he was taken by the 4th floor people.  I don't know how he was assaulted but maybe he would tell by himself.
	It's not Mogabe, it's Nogabe.  She is a girl - she was the daughter of Sergeant Nogabe.  She is the same as the Makhubalo - though she was a girl but she was made to do the frog jumps and the push-ups.  She was clapped, she was kicked.
	Oupa Mokele.  He was fetched also but he was taken to 4th floor.  
	Jomo Makara - ra at the end.  He was a member of the Pan Africanist Congress.  He was fetched by me in the morning together with that office under the instructions of Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee.   He was assaulted.  I know only one person who was handling him before he moved from that office bleeding.  I can only identify one person but I don't know whom he was - that's Warrant Officer Ramosoeu.
	Elisha Lefuo and Elia Lefuo.  They were also made to do frog jumps and push-ups and they were clapped and kicked but by that time, they were members of AZAZO - that is Azanian Movement.  Also they were assaulted and they were told what to do and they were told to stop organising Azazism activities from schools.
	Jomo Lefuo.  There were three of them when we collected them, that is Elisha, Elia and Jomo - they are from the same family.  He - I clapped him in the car but when he arrived at the office, he knows very well who was responsible for his assault - he would explain.  
	He was a member of UDF - he was in the lid and organising and he problematic to our offices because in Botshabelo he was one who was organising students together with ministers so that they should be against the annexation of Botshabelo to Qwa Qwa.
	This one, that is number 20.  I remembered his name after I've submitted my application - that is Kamada Thabedi.

CHAIRPERSON: Commander - is that a name of a rank?  Is it Commander or Kamanda?