Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

MS PATEL: He goes further.  He says after you dragged him out of the van, you shot him.  You shot him at the intersection and that he was able to see this, because he was still in the vicinity at the time.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, it is the first time I hear this.  I deny that I dragged him from the vehicle.  I did not deny that I had shot him, but I did not drag him from the vehicle.

MS PATEL: If one goes to Mr Benting's evidence, the bus driver who arrived at the scene, do you accept that you are the person who went to the bus and said something to the effect of, what is he doing here with the children, or something to that effect?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot remember that I have spoken to the bus driver.  Later on they told me a bus full of children passed there.  It was only later conveyed to me.  Somebody with a blue, they said somebody with a blue jacket said something to them.  There was somebody on the video with a blue jacket on.  I was wearing a blue jersey.  I cannot remember this.

MS PATEL: Fine.  Mr Benting says, as well, from where he was standing, and you have noted from the inspection in loco where the bus was, that he had fairly good vantage point from where he was, that he saw you shoot Mr Konile in the head.
MR BOOYENS OBJECTS

MR BOOYENS: I am not sure whether he said he saw this witness, Mr Chairman.  I, he says he saw a policeman with a blue jacket.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I just ask a point on, on a point of clarification.  Me Bellingan, you say that there was somebody who was wearing a blue jacket that morning.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, we saw that on the video.  It looks like a denim jacket the guy had on, a blue jacket also then.

CHAIRPERSON: Black.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, blue denim.  Sorry, Sir.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know who that person is?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If we can look at the video again, I could perhaps determine who he was.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, off the cuff.

CHAIRPERSON: Could that be done here in the interim, during the adjournment?  You do not have to be present, Mr Booyens.  Your client has an opportunity of looking at it and stopping the video at that stage.

MR BOOYENS: I am indebted to you, My Lord.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And, further, do you recall having spoken to any of the people in the area who were civilians?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman, I cannot remember having spoken to anybody there.  I could have told people to drive past, but I cannot remember whether I have spoken to anybody.  I was at the intersection, I wanted to control the situation.  I could have said go this way, try to get a Caspar, but I cannot remember speaking to somebody specifically.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Indeed, if you did speak to anyone, it is something that you could have remembered.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I did not speak to Mr Benting.  I was confronted with this fact later on.  I cannot even remember this.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MS PATEL: Mr Bellingan, Mr Benting has testified previously that at the scene he witnessed a shooting.  The person he then points out as having been shot, that he had seen, is the person lying in the intersection, which is the same person that you have admitted to shooting.  What is ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Is that so?

MS PATEL: There is only person at the intersection in the street ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Afterwards there was only one person there, but the points pointed out were completely different, were they not?  You will recollect that Mr Benting pointed out a spot on the centre of the N1 road to the north of the N111, some seven paces, I think it was, from where the body was found.  No, no more.

MS PATEL: If I may, my recollection was that it was about two paces, but I ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Two paces from him.  It was, sorry, 15 paces.  He was 15 paces from the corner.  The point he pointed out where the body was, was two paces up from the corner.

MS PATEL: That is 13 paces then from where he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Where he was and some 22, 20 odd paces or 20 to 22 paces from where the other body, which is the person shot by the applicant, the first applicant.

MS PATEL: If my understanding is correct then, if one accepts that the initial distance was 15 paces and the second distance that Mr Benting pointed out was 13 paces, then the difference in the position of the body at the intersection would have been two paces ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: ... or am I wrong?

CHAIRPERSON: The body was seven paces from the corner.

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Bellingan, how many people were shot in the intersection on the road?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, it was only the person who I shot.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, that is what my understanding is, just the one person.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Bellingan, I cannot recall your statements, statements that you made during the Section 29 hearings, I cannot recall clearly, but I, would I be mistaken if I say that you did concede that there was only one person who was shot at the intersection?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, it was only person I shot there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, but that there was only one person who was shot that day, not by you personally?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: At that intersection it was only the person who was shot.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairperson, I do not mean to intervene at this stage, but it may actually resolve this particular dispute.  I also do not mean to intervene in the distances that were raised and pointed out by Mr Benting yesterday, but he had testified at the Weaver Trial in this particular matter, that the person whom he had seen being shot is the person shown on photograph number 22.  If you look at the bundle of photographs, that happens to be Mr Konile, which Mr Bellingan concedes is the person he shot and I think that puts it beyond dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: What page (...indistinct)?

MR BOOYENS: It is page 56 of the, it is page 562 of the Weaver Trial at line three.

MS PATEL: Mr Chairperson, you do not have a full copy of the Weaver ...

ADV MOTATA: We do not have the full copy ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, ... (intervention).

JUDGE MILLER: ... of that.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, if I can be of assistance here.  Also on page 204 of Volume I, at the Section 29 inquiry, the, it is conceded that the person is, in fact, Zabonki Konile.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think it is in dispute that that is the person that the applicant shot.  The question was that the other, the, if you look at the statement made by Mr Benting and the spot pointed out to him, it appeared he was pointing out some other incident, because he referred to, in his statement at page 399, paragraph five,
"I could also see about three metres from my vehicle, a Black man lying motionless on his stomach in the middle of the same intersection."
Well, he showed us at the inspection that he was parked 15 paces from the intersection.  If this was three metres away from him, it was a long way away, but if there is this other evidence where he actually looked at a photograph, that I think would be far more reliable than his recollections now of empty places on the road.

MS PATEL: Mr Chairperson, can we then accept that the person who Mr Benting see, saw being shot is the same person that Mr Bellingan shot?

MR BOOYENS: Certainly not before I have cross-examined him, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: You can accept that he said at the trial that the person he saw who shooting was the person shown in the photograph.

MS PATEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Benting confirms that the person Mr Konile, lying at the intersection was lying down at the time that he was being shot and that he was shot in the head.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I deny that I shot him while he was lying on the ground.

MS PATEL: Do you confirm that Mr Konile was shot in the head at the very least then?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, he was shot in his head while standing.