Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR P DU PLESSIS: You cannot exclude the possibility that by the 30th of October you read in the press and heard on the television that Van Zyl was denying that he wanted to hurt anyone, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sir, we were in the building, Van Zyl tried to kill us.  I couldn't put it to you in more simple terms, whether you believe me or not.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Once again you're not answering my question for some reason.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Come with your question again, I'll tell you now.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I'm putting this to you, that you cannot exclude the possibility that you read in the papers or heard on television that Van Zyl was in fact denying that he wanted to hurt or kill anyone.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I can't exclude that possibility, but I can ...(break in tape) in the building at the time.  That's a fact.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And what I'm putting to you Sir, is that this attorney came to you and you and your friends, fellow people, persons from the Cape Youth Congress who were politically inclined to do the same thing, came together and you conspired to make these statements and to make it clear in these statements that Van Zyl and Botha should have known because of the fact that there were vehicles or there were people moving in and out, etcetera, etcetera.  And I ...(intervention)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is facts Sir, whether you like it or not.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I am therefore not willing to accept on these papers and statements that in fact you people, the people who made these statements, were present at the Early Learning Centre when the bomb went off.
	Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, we'll take the lunch adjournment now.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may I interrupt, I have only two or three questions at most, would it be possible to conclude that because we've made arrangements.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Has my learned friend Mr du Plessis finished, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr du Plessis is finished and Mr Wessels just wants to ask a few questions, he says he's got a very few questions.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Mr Chairman, I merely want to place on record that this suggestion that is made by Mr du Plessis who has no specific instructions from Mr van Zyl or Mr Calla Botha, and to do it for the, to suggest that such a conspiracy exists at the very end of these proceedings, Mr Chairman, is a matter which we submit is completely unacceptable and to which we will particularly refer to during the argument, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Bizos.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just say, obviously I do not have any such instructions, but the fact of the matter is that it was suggested by Mr Bizos himself that there were no specific instructions that people should not be killed or hurt.  In fact, Mr Bizos' argument or what he put to all the witnesses is that in fact the plan was to kill as many of the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement as possible, and therefore I have to investigate this matter.  And may I say, Mr Chairman, that these document were made available to me and there was no earlier stage at which I could make such allegations because there were no witnesses who were called before.
	Furthermore, may I just before I forget, I see that in Mr Williams' statement there is reference to a further statement which he has made and which is not part of these bundles.  I'm referring to page 211 of bundle B, paragraph 1.  There's mention of a statement which he made on the 19th of March, I suppose it's 1990, obviously it can't be '89, and I would ask respectfully Mr Chairman, that this statement be obtained by my learned friend, Ms Coleridge, if it is not one of the statements we have at hand.

UNKNOWN: I just want to refer you to ... it is in bundle D.

MR WILLIAMS: It starts on page 212.

UNKNOWN: It's also the typed version in bundle D, Chairperson, page 3 to 4.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the statement starting on 212 to 217 is dated the 30th of October 1990, now there's mention in paragraph 1 of a statement made on the 19th of March.  Otherwise I just don't understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Where it says ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.
CHAIRPERSON
"... on the 19th of March 1990"
and then you give that it was made, not only on the 19th of March 1990, but at 10.36 in the morning.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, to Detective-Sergeant Lloyd.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I recall seeing some statement, it's just like a declaration, it doesn't say much I remember.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, if you look at bundle D you will note on page 2 is the statement that he made on the 30/10/90, where he refers to the previous statement made on the 19/3/90, and if you turn the page, on page 3 and to page 5, you will note there it's dated there 19/3/90, the bottom of the page.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I see that, I will accept it for the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: So it seems that they're there, Mr du Plessis.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Alexander, Mr Williams made a statement, the one on the 30th of October 1990, wherein he says in paragraph 1:
"I just want to state it clearly that on the evening of 31 August 1989 I held a meeting with members of the Kewtown Youth Movement.  After we had concluded the meeting we went outside where the members who were with me went home."

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Which one is this?

MR WESSELS: Will you accept that position as being correct?

CHAIRPERSON: It's bundle D, page 2 and it's paragraph 1 of the statement, the typed version.

MR LAX: That's the second sentence of that paragraph.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's not correct.  Peter stayed behind for the Cayco meeting.

MR WESSELS: I see.  No, afterwards he says then that he stayed behind, but the people that were with him all went home then.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Oh yes.

MR WESSELS: The Kewtown Youth Movement members or the people who attended that meeting then all left.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's right.

MR WESSELS: So would you accept then that anyone outside who saw these people leaving, these Kewtown Youth Movement members leaving, would then be under the impression that that was the end of the meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes and no.

MR WESSELS: Well why do you say no?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well people who knew us in the area would know I'm driving, (a), and would see us walk together all.  If they could identify us by name, they would know who would have left and who would not.

MR WESSELS: Alright.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Wessels.
	But you'll concede that if they saw a group of people leaving the building, they'd assume that at least one meeting was over?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Ja, that's right.

MR WESSELS: Mr Alexander, you said that you're not afraid of Gakkie, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I'm not afraid of him, today I'm still not.  I can walk past him without any fear.

MR WESSELS: You never were afraid of him, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I'm not afraid of Gakkie, but I was afraid of the State.

MR WESSELS: Yes.  Just listen ...

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, Gakkie ...(intervention)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I'm not afraid of Gakkie.

MR WESSELS: You have never been afraid of Gakkie.  You see there was a newspaper clipping read out to Gakkie when he gave evidence, where he had stated in the newspaper about
"That he was the iron hand of Kewtown"
or words to that effect.  You remember that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I heard it here for the first time.

MR WESSELS: Yes, no yesterday it was read out to him.  Now that seems to me as if those are the words of a braggart who wanted to be important and to create the impression that he is powerful.  Would you agree with that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's right.  The way he carried himself yesterday was of a similar nature.