Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

ADV DE JAGER: I think it is incorrect to state that he was knocked unconscious, that is not said anywhere in the statement that he was knocked unconscious.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Advocate.  According to you Captain, was the deceased at that stage rendered unconscious, was he knocked unconscious?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not judging by his responses and reactions.  He might have been unconscious for a split second.

MR PAPIER: He was laying on the ground after you hit him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: He was laying on the ground and I was standing to his right side and Sergeant Abels behind his head and his two hands were flat on the ground as indicated by the speaker.

MR PAPIER: According to your statement, he then jumped up again.  Did he then assume a sitting position?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: When Abels was able to put the cuff around the right wrist and tried to pull the left hand closer, he came upright into an upright position, with the cuff still attached to his right wrist.

MR PAPIER: Did you attempt to hit him again, to knock him back again to the ground?   Surely that is possible?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is possible, I can't explain that.

MR PAPIER: Abels was standing there, he could also have hit him or kicked him or pulled him down?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Abels was behind him.  There was an element of surprise present.  I had hoped that he was unconscious, we were least tense, I don't know if that is the correct expression or word, but perhaps we were not as alert.
	We were all on the ground.  He sat upright and I assume that if Abels could have reacted quickly enough, he could have done something, I could have jumped on him, but at that stage, it didn't actually happen.

MR PAPIER: Let us move from there Captain.  A shot went off?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute.  Before we get to that, Captain you hit the man intending to render him unconscious or out of action?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you succeeded in that because he relaxed for a moment?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was on his back?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do then?  The man was laying on his back and is out of action, exactly as you had set out to do?  Why wasn't he handcuffed?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It was at that stage when I took the cuffs from my overall pockets, gave it to Abels and that Abels started putting the handcuff around his right wrist.
	His hands were on both sides of his body and Abels managed to get the cuff around the right wrist, and it was when he attempted to get the left hand closer to the right hand, that the deceased sat upright again and pulled the cuff away from Abels so that he only have the one cuff around his right wrist and the whole struggle started again.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the man wasn't even standing, he is laying on his back on the ground?  And you said he was pinned down to the ground, on his back and there were two policemen standing on either side of him and the man's body relaxed, surely that would have been the ideal moment to finally restrain the man?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, that's what we tried to do, but we didn't succeed in doing that.

CHAIRPERSON: But I am baffled, why couldn't you succeed in that?  The man's body had relaxed, he is on his back?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, I immediately then took out my handcuffs and told Abels handcuff him.  He only succeeded in putting the handcuff around the right wrist and it was then when the deceased assumed a fighting position again.
	If we managed to handcuff his other arm, then we would have succeeded.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, how many policeman would you have needed to actually restrain this man, a man who is laying on his back and whose body had already relaxed?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is very difficult to say how many policemen would have been necessary.  But I can guarantee you that experience have taught me that to handcuff a person who does not want to be handcuffed, is no easy job.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the issue is not necessarily the handcuffing, the issue is to restrain this man.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: This person didn't want to be restrained.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is exactly why you hit him on the head?  We are not arguing about that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: And it did not have the desired result.

CHAIRPERSON: That is exactly what I can't understand.  Thank you Mr Papier, you may continue.

MR PAPIER: Thank you.  Captain Benzien, can you tell the Committee how many policemen took part in this operation, in its totality?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't give an exact number but the people who participated in the Tracking Team, all gathered at Athlone.  I would estimate that apart from myself and Abels, there might have been about six members.

MR PAPIER: And they were all part of this operation?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.  Part of the operation, if I could elaborate, they were placed at strategic positions.  Not in our direct vicinity because bearing in mind that we didn't have the exact address.  If these people were in the immediate vicinity, then they could have scuppered the whole operation.

MR PAPIER: Captain, a shot went off?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: Where were you at that stage?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: On the deceased's back, whilst he was on his feet and trying to enter the back door.

MR PAPIER: So you actually jumped onto his back with your sturdily built body?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, when I say his back, I mean that I was on his back, my feet was still on the ground.  I don't actually know of a better way to express this.
	On and over his back.

MR PAPIER: Yes, but you were behind him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Will you agree with me that you could easily have hit him to the left or right side of the head, hit him with your feet or Abels could perhaps have done the same?  Would you agree with me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not in those circumstances, no.  We were in or just a little bit before the doorway, my firearm was in my right hand and I held him with my left hand.
	I tried to get him to enter the house.  I wasn't sure what danger still lurked inside the house.

MR PAPIER: You are right handed?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Why didn't you hit him on the head with the firearm, that was possible?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I could have hit him on the head with the weapon, I am sure.  At that stage and with the necessary powers at my disposal, I could not only have hit him but also shot him.

MR PAPIER: And that is indeed what you did?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The weapon went off in my hand.  As crude as it may sound, I believe that when schedule 1 offence is committed, I believe that a court would have found or probably would have found, that I was entitled to shoot him.

MR PAPIER: We are not talking about the court judgement Sir.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, that is so, but it was put to me why didn't I hit him on the head again.  I suppose I could have hit him on the head if I wanted to.  But it is hard  to say what possibilities flash through your mind.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time, did it occur to you that you could have hit him and decided that you were not going to hit him on the head?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Chairman, with all respect, I don't know what I was thinking at that stage Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Honourable Chair.  Did you at any stage aim the firearm at the deceased?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It would be mere speculation on my part.  I can't exactly think of that, but it would have been very strange if I hadn't aimed the firearm at him.

MR PAPIER: So you are speculating?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR PAPIER: You are not in a position today to give the Committee a version as to how you dealt with the firearm there, am I correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: On the contrary, I am prepared to tell the Committee to the best of my ability how I used the firearm without speculating.