Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, I have obviously not been in a position to re-examine or proceed with cross-examination on this particular witness on the very basis of questions that was put to him by Members of the Committee subsequent to the conclusion of my cross-examination so in the course of that at least certain things came to light on which I haven't had the opportunity to obtain instruction.  I will endeavour to get full instruction from my client.  I have also not been in a position due to the cross-examination of this witness only having really finished now to take any instruction as to the recalling of witnesses which have already testified.  So at the best I can say that once that I have been in a position to obtain proper instruction on that as well as having an indication of what further incriminating evidence might come forth from other applicants, I will reconsider the position and I will act and relay my instructions to the Committee.  I must however point out that I have to say this against the background that originally when my client got notification that there's a possibility of him being incriminated, it was merely a notification that he might have been incriminated by Mr Kloppers but at the time when I appeared here, I was informed by Mr Brink as well as from the side of my fellow legal brothers that in fact certain evidence was, at least by some of the other applicants which have given their testimony, that incriminated Mr Oelofse so against that background, it is difficult for me at this stage to give a final indication of what my instructions from my client will be but I will endeavour my best to do so.

ADV PRINSLOO: If you could let us know in advance so that we can make a decision before the resumption of this case, we would appreciate it particularly.

MR DREYER: I'll take note of that.

ADV PRINSLOO: Chairperson, my apologies, my attorney of record has indicated something to me and I think that it would be important, especially in light of the request which has just been conveyed to me to convey to my attorney of record.  My attorney of record requests that it be arranged that we receive a transcription of the proceedings because by nature it would facilitate our consideration to place certain matters on dispute and it might make our decision much easier if this would be possible, the record would be transcribed as soon as possible and will be available to all as soon as it is done.  You may contact Mr Brink as well as our offices to find out when exactly it will be available.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think it should please be clarified that we do not really accept it as our responsibility to provide the record to the litigants or participants.  I don't think it should be our responsibility, we don't accept that kind of responsibility.  Sometimes we try to be as helpful as we can let it just be clarified that it is not our responsibility, we don't accept that responsibility.

ADV PRINSLOO: I accept that Chairperson, I did not expect it to be the responsibility of the Committee, however I did make that request in the light of the fact that I must convey this to my attorney of record and the entire basis upon which my presence here was constituted, was not to oppose the application but to test the incriminating nature of testimony.  I did indicate that if we could obtain a transcription of the proceedings it would make matters much easier for all of us involved.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I would suggest to make things easier for yourself I would suggest that you direct your request in writing to our office in Cape Town, give them the details of the case.  We do succeed sometimes in getting the transcribed record within a few weeks but now there are so many hearings going on and everybody wants their transcript for their record and as a result there is some measure of delay, we sometimes don't succeed in getting the record.  So we ourselves are really having a big problem in relation to a number of matters which were heard a long time ago, we don't have the record so don't be too hopeful but I think write a letter and perhaps you can write it the attention of Mr Brink who knows the matter better than everyone and he will pass it to the relevant office but give the details of the matter and ask for a copy of the record.

MR DREYER: Thank you Mr Chairman, my attorney of record just wants me to put on record that I must just state clearly that not being present when certain applicants gave their evidence of which we have not been given prior notice that there might be incriminating evidence forthcoming from their applications - we are in a difficulty to answer.

MR WAGENAAR: With respect Mr Dreyer, many of the applicants have not yet testified and it should not be a problem for your client to provide a summary of his knowledge of this incident or his lack of knowledge of this incident.  Please.

MR DREYER: I take notes Chairperson, I have simply been requested to place this on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer your criteria has been very helpful to us to help us in facilitating the hearings, not to delay and the like, we really appreciate that but the reason why we cannot give an undertaking with regard to the record is that - I've already told you - so many people ask for that and they expect of us to do that, it's just impossible.  If we could there would be no problem, we would give it to you but it's just that it's very difficult.  It's so difficult these days that we really cannot give an undertaking but that doesn't mean that we don't appreciate the assistance of your attorney, he helped us a lot and we might have ended up with a postponement.
	So the matter is adjourned until the 10th June.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS