Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

MR LEOPENG: The applicant is seeking amnesty on all offences that he was convicted of.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are aware that he did not confine himself of course, to offences for which he was convicted.  He may apply for amnesty in respect of acts or offences for which there was no conviction.

MR LEOPENG: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you want us to take an adjournment to enable you to apply your mind in this regard?

MR LEOPENG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Obviously bearing in mind the fact that the reason why he was convicted of attempted robbery, was because on the evidence that was before Justice Levison, there was no indication that the firearm of the policeman who was subsequently killed, not Mr Nkuna, I am trying to get the name of the deceased, Mr Mathonsi, the evidence was that Mr Mathonsi's firearm was not in fact taken by the applicant, and his assailants.
	I am just drawing your attention to that fact.  We will take a short adjournment and we will reconvene at twenty past eleven.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: (still under oath)

MR LEOPENG: (continued)   Thank you Madam Chair.  I wish to go back to the question from the panel on specific acts that he committed which he is applying amnesty for.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LEOPENG: May I just not lead the applicant therein and just tell the panel on what is he applying for?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may do so.

MR LEOPENG: Thank you Madam Chair.  The applicant is applying for amnesty on count 1, that is the count of murder, count 2, attempted robbery, count 3, 4 and 5, unlawful possession of ammunition, shotgun and the hand grenades and also he is applying for amnesty for count 6, which he was not convicted of.
	The applicant in his evidence in chief stated that one Pat took the service pistol off the deceased, and he ran away.  He still maintains that version, even if he was not convicted of and he is applying for amnesty for that taking of the policeman's service firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: He therefore cannot apply for attempted robbery, is it attempted robbery in respect of the firearm of Mr Nkuna?

MR LEOPENG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the robbery of Mr Mathonsi's firearm?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Yes, that is so Madam Chair.  He is applying for robbery of that firearm and for the attempted robbery of the firearm of Mr Nkuna.

CHAIRPERSON: Nkuna being the policeman who was not killed?

MR LEOPENG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That being the case, I think your evidence in chief, is lacking in only one material aspect, and that is with regard to where the firearms that were in possession of the applicant and his colleagues, were obtained.  You haven't led evidence in that regard and before you close your evidence in chief, we would like to hear you in that regard.
	You would have to give us evidence with regard to where the weapons which were in the possession of the applicant and his colleagues, were obtained.  Can you do that?

MR LEOPENG: Thank you Madam Chair for your assistance.
	Now Mr Mononi, on that day you said specifically, you were armed with a Makarov pistol and the other comrades were armed with hand grenades, pump gun and a .38 revolver.  Where did you get such arms and ammunition?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: These were firearms belonging to the Unit, they were given to us by the Commander of the Unit.  These were firearms belonging to the community.

MR LEOPENG: Do you have an idea where did the Unit get these firearms which were handed to you on that day?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Some of the firearms were obtained as a result of the community having raised funds to purchase them and some of these firearms, were obtained by way of disarming the police.

MR LEOPENG: Madam Chair, through your permission, I want to go back to the evidence that he gave regarding the taking of the firearm from the deceased.
	You said one Pat took the service pistol belonging to the deceased, where did he take that service pistol off the deceased?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: This firearm, I would say after every operation or mission, we would go back and report to the Commander of the Unit and hand over the firearms.

MR LEOPENG: So are you saying that that firearm was handed to the SDU or the Unit?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Yes, that is correct.

MR LEOPENG: No further questions Madam Chair.  I now close the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when he refers to the Commander of the Unit, he is referring to Winki?

MR LEOPENG: When you refer to the Commander of the Unit, are you referring to Winki with whom you were on that day?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are now through with your evidence in chief?  Are you through?

MR LEOPENG: Yes, I am through.  I have one other witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but before you can do so, I think an opportunity should be given to Ms Thabete the Evidence Leader, to put questions to Mr Mononi about his evidence and an opportunity will then be given to the members of the Committee to put questions to Mr Mononi, whereafter you may then call your further witness to support his application, thank you.

MR LEOPENG: Thank you Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LEOPENG

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mononi?

MS THABETE: Yes Madam Chair, I do.  Before I proceed, I would like to put it on record that I am also assisting the victim, Captain Nkuna in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETE: Mr Mononi, when you approached the policemen, where was the deceased standing, where was he?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: He was standing in front of the place where motor tyres are being fixed.

MS THABETE: Was he standing in front of Warrant Officer Nkuna or was he standing at the back of Warrant Officer Nkuna?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: I cannot recall as to how he was standing in relation to the other.

MS THABETE: My instructions are that Mr Mononi, he was standing at the back of Mr Nkuna when he was actually attacked, but I will move on as we go along with that point.
	It is also your evidence that you gave an order that the firearms, they must put down their firearms, is that correct?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you mean Mr Mononi or do you mean an order was given by one of his colleagues, you mean he gave the order?

MS THABETE: I was still going to ask him who gave the order.  Thank you Madam Chair.  Who gave that order that the firearms must be handed over?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: It was Winki.

MS THABETE: Did they hand over the firearms?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: No.

MS THABETE: Did anyone drop their guns down?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: No.

MS THABETE: In your evidence you say that the deceased policeman struggled with Xolani, is that correct?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: That is correct.

MS THABETE: And that is how he was shot, is that correct?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Did you actually see or did you actually see the deceased being shot or you heard the fireshot?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: I only heard a gunshot.

MS THABETE: But you didn't actually see the policeman being shot at?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: I only saw him laying down.

MS THABETE: So when you say he was shot in the chest, where do you take that from?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: I saw blood stains on his chest as he was laying down, that is what I am saying.

MS THABETE: Mr Mononi, it is my instruction that Mr Mathonsi as I have stated before, was standing at the back and he was actually shot from the back, right through, I mean ...

MR LAX: Are you trying to say that the entry wound was at the back and the exit wound was in the front?

MS THABETE: Yes, thank you, thank you, I was short of words, yes, exactly.  What is your comment on that?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: I would not know what the entry point of the bullet was.  I only saw this injury on his chest.