Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-18

MS COLLETT: Was disapproval or discipline ever metered out to you by the ANC main structure?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: They were not totally against what we have done.

MS COLLETT: Do you mean to say by that that they approved of what you had done?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: I could say that because they never rebuked us.

MS COLLETT: At that time, did you think that what you were doing was wrong or not?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: We thought that what we had done was good and righteous, because in our village, Gobozane, we wanted EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
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liberation.

MS COLLETT: Did you believe at the time that what you were doing was for the political struggle and for emancipation?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes, because the presence of the ADM in our community was oppressive.

MS COLLETT: Now, do you stand by what your co-applicant said that there was an intention to kill this lady on that particular day?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes, we had intentions of killing Mrs Mphambane on that day.

MS COLLETT: And you associated yourself with that intention?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes, I absolutely associated myself.

MS COLLETT: Now, prior to today have you given other versions wherein you have not told the truth?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes, in the application that I made I think there would be a discrepancy between the application and what I say now.

MS COLLETT: And is it also correct that you didn't give this evidence that you have given today at court?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: It is so.

MS COLLETT: Now, do you confirm that what you have told the Commission today is the truth?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: It is the absolute truth.

MS COLLETT: And if you look back on the deed in retrospect  is  there anything that you would like to comment?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes there is.

MS COLLETT: What is that?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: The presence of the ADM in our community was EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
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oppressive.  We then had to do something.  I feel great remorse for having taken somebody's life, but there was no other way that we could do this.   We were the youth, we are the youth.  We did not have a full grasp of political movements and steps.  We did this because of the energy of youth.  We did not go through the correct thought processes or channels.  We did not think of the repercussions either.

MS COLLETT: Do you regard yourself as being more matured now?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes I would say so, because at the time it was in 1993, in retrospect and by reflection I realise that this is the time of democracy and politics are no child's play.

MS COLLETT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT

MR BRINK: I am afraid at one stage during the course of your evidence my translation device went off, but I picked up something about someone spoke to you and said, leave my father's house alone but you can do whatever you like to my mother.   As I understand it, was that the daughter or son of the deceased?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: It was the son.

MR BRINK: And that he indicated that he did not mind if you killed his mother as long as you left his father and his father's house alone?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: He did not say that he would not mind or be hurt.  He just said that we could do anything we wanted to do to the mother, but not to the father's house.   I do not think that he thought that we would kill his mother.  He thought that we would beat her up, not take her life.

MR BRINK: Was he a member of ANC Youth League?
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MR BRINK	143	MR MPHAMBANE

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: I am not sure, because he would miss most of the meetings.   The first time I saw him was the meeting that we went to on the 26th of April.

MR BRINK: Was he at that meeting?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: He came to the meeting but it was already in the middle.

MR BRINK: Do you know what the policy of the ANC was at this time in regard to the killing of oponents, political opponents?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: We were not very politically aware in a literal sense at the time, therefore we did not know the policy of the ANC.

MR BRINK: Now, the Chairman of the Committee you will recollect questioned the previous applicant in regard to paragraph 11.  Would you look at that same paragraph? It seems to be in all the applications, it seems to have been compiled by the same person in prison, is that correct?  In other words, all the applications which are together appear to be in the same handwriting.  Was it another prisoner who assisted you, or a prison warder, or who assisted you?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: No, these applications we made ourselves.  Some of us had problems, because we could not write properly.  I was the one who could write properly.

MR BRINK: So are the applications in your handwriting, in the main?   I am not criticising you, I just would like to
know, to get clarity.   I am not trying to trap you, I just want to find out.

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: It was me Sir, it is my handwriting.

MR BRINK: So then it was you who referred to, if you have a look at that paragraph to which I referred, paragraph 11.A on page 5 of the application and your application as well, EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
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talks about,
"...no approval from the organisation, because we didn't plan to kill anyone, this was an accidental act".
Can you explain why it was an accidental act if you intended to kill Mrs Mphambane?  And why all the applicants seemed to, as far as I see, say the same thing?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: As we all made the applications together, it would be difficult for others to remember properly about what exactly what happened in the meeting, the procedures.  I based this application on the statement that I made in court.   I had in mind that I would be given an opportunity to speak out and say what happened on that day.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you seriously suggesting that young men who attended a meeting at which you decided to kill a prominent member of your community, would have difficulty in remembering that you decided that and would think it was accidental?   Do you ask me to believe that?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: I am not seriously saying that some of us forgot.  What I am trying to reveal is that perhaps they had forgotten as to exactly what decision was made at the meeting.  Secondly, this part of the application we compared to what we said in the court of law.

JUDGE WILSON: The fact that you were filling in an
application for amnesty and swearing to the correctness of it did not influence you in any way.  You were quite prepared to put something in you knew was untrue.

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: It did influence us, because we have to tell the truth so that we can be freed as prisoners.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you lie then and say, because what you are telling us now it was a lie, we did not plan to
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kill, this was an accidental act.   That is a lie, a blatant lie, isn't it?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: What we have said here that we did not plan to kill her, this was evoked in a meeting that we should kill her.  I think this is what this paragraph is trying to clarify.