Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

MR SMIT: And mention was made by Mr Snyders that Mr Douw Steyn was the owner of Sasol Fertilisers.

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: Yes, that is correct.   The fertiliser concentrate was supplied by Sasol there, while the equipment was supplied to us by "Boere Krisis Aksie".

MR SMIT: On a few occasions you have said the instruction to cause these explosions you received from Mr Snyders, may I accept that you were under his command, or were you under Mr Steyn's command in the Defence Group of Toekomsgesprek?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: No, I was under the command of Mr Snyders.

MR SMIT: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SMIT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Smit.  Mr Morgan, any questions?

MR MORGAN: Mr Chairman, I am aware that the applicant, in respect of the indemnity seeking, no victims were involved, but I don't know whether it would be proper and whether the Committee would allow me to ask him certain questions because of his association with Mr Snyders, the first applicant.  In relation to the Nelspruit High School bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, of course, you're entitled to do that, Mr Morgan.

MR MORGAN: As it pleases the Committee.
	Mr Kruger, the Nelspruit High School bombing, why were you not involved in that planting of the bomb there?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: I was not aware of it, Chairperson.

MR MORGAN: You were aware of two other bombings that took place round about the same time and you were part of the group that Mr Snyders was in charge of, how is it that you were not aware of that bombing that took place at Nelspruit High School?  Could you explain that.

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: Chairperson, the Defence Interest Group constituted several persons and each instruction which was given to a person, it was not necessary that the next person had to be aware of it.  The instructions which we received were with regard to Lowveld High and the Magistrate's Court in Sabie, and those are the instructions which I received and I was not aware of any other instructions.

MR MORGAN: When did you become aware of the bombing at Nelspruit High School?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: I became aware of it when it was published in the media, Chairperson.

MR MORGAN: Did Mr Snyders at any stage after the bombing took place, discuss the issue of the Nelspruit High School bombing with you?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: I didn't hear the question properly, will you please repeat it.  There is some disturbance in the microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think you must repeat your question, Mr Morgan.

MR MORGAN: When did Mr Snyders discuss the Nelspruit High School bombing with you?  If at all.

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: He did not discuss it with me, Chairperson.

MR MORGAN: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MORGAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Morgan.  Mr van der Bank.

MR VAN DER BANK: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Kruger, the aims put forward with regard to the planting of these bombs, namely the bombs placed at Lowveld High School and the Magistrate's Court, who conveyed these aims to you with regard to the planting of these bombs?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: It came from Toekomsgesprek, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER BANK: Would you be more specific, can you mention any person's names and the chain of command as it came through to you for the execution of these actions?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: Chairperson, I was not aware of the command structure higher up in Toekomsgesprek hierarchy, I was only aware that from Douw Steyn, where the command came from, from Douw Steyn to Mr Ben Snyders, to us.  At meetings that were held with regard to the Defence Interest Group, these targets were repeatedly identified to us by Mr Douw Steyn and that we had to continue and a date had to be determined, which would be given to us, with regard to this State property and these State targets.  Post offices were mentioned, airports were also mentioned as possible targets.  So these identifications of targets came exclusively from the command structure of TG.

MR VAN DER BANK: Were you actively involved in the building of these explosive devices?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: Yes, we were involved.

MR VAN DER BANK: And what were your duties when it came to building these devices?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: It was, amongst others, the welding to the bombs.

MR VAN DER BANK: And at a stage when you participated in the manufacturing of these explosive devices, did you know for which targets they would be used?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: Not at that stage.

MR VAN DER BANK: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER BANK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Bank.  Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have one question.
	Mr Kruger, what was the reason given to you for specifically choosing Sabie Magistrate's Court for this bombing?  What was the reason?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: The Magistrate's Court in Sabie was exclusively because it was State property, Chairperson.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.  Panel?

ADV SANDI: Maybe just one.
	Mr Kruger, did you at any stage recently speak with Mr Steyn?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: The last that I had contact with Mr Steyn, Chairperson, was two years ago when I purchased my fertiliser at his depot at Nelspruit, and there Mr Douw Steyn told me that he had heard that this application would be concluded administratively, and that is the last time that I spoke to him.

ADV SANDI: Did he tell you who had told him that the application would concluded administratively, as you put it?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: No, Chairperson, he only told me that he had heard that our applications would be dealt with administratively.

ADV SANDI: Did it appear to you that he was in support of your application?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: My application for indemnity?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, let me put it this way.  Did you engage with him in any further discussion pertaining to your application?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: No, I never discussed my application with him, I only walked into his office because I saw him sitting there and I just went there to greet him, and that is when he mentioned this to me, that he heard that our applications would be dealt with administratively.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Kruger.  Thank you, Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: As a follow-up to my colleague's questions, Mr Kruger, what was his attitude towards the applications you have made?

JAN PETRUS KRUGER: Chairperson, right from the start, initially when these things happened, Toekomsgesprek supplied an attorney to us by the name of Mr Christo Smit.  Mr Ras and I went to Mr Christo Smit and he handled our matter and right from the start Mr Christo Smit made us understand that nothing would come of this, and that is why it was not necessary to implicate unnecessary names in this whole matter.  Mr Ras and I arrived at a stage where we felt that we were intimidated by Mr Smit, because it was said to us that when we mention a name, and some of these names were eventually mentioned, that he would withdraw himself from the matter.
	I understood that this was the right of any legal representative, to withdraw or recuse himself from any matter.  And later it was mentioned to us that these matters could not continue because it was costing them money and then eventually we would have to pay them for their services.  And on occasion Mr Ras and I had an appointment with Mr Smit.  We arrived earlier than what we should have and on that occasion Mr Douw Steyn walked out of Mr Smit's office and thereafter he also told us that when names were mentioned he would remove himself from the case.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.  Coming to your activities at Toekomsgesprek, did you have any connection with the top structure of the CP, or all your activities centred around Toekomsgesprek?