Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Chairman yes, unfortunately.  I haven't got it with me but I can supply you with a complete list of publications in internationally recognised journals, several of them which are locally published and also several of them international publications.  It is in the region of about 14 publications as first author and about twenty as second and even more as third author which means you were a co-worker in research teams.
 If I can elaborate a little bit on the scientific side of it because I feel it's relevant later on and in the discussions we are looking for the truth and I feel one should look a little bit at scientists and what is a scientist.  It is relevant.  We were involved in a very, very high level of sophisticated science.  Now a scientist only comes by experience and training, and scientists are controlled not by themselves, not by a boss, scientists are controlled by an international community of science.  There are many rules and regulations in place internationally which controls science.  The way science is done internationally is on the same standard all over the world.  So all international scientific organisations, journals etc adhere to these levels of standards.  
 And I want to point that out to the Commission they must take it in mind in some of the future points that when we speak about good science and bad science etc, that science can be verified, and scientists can be evaluated for their achievements.
 I also took part in writing some scientific books.  I wrote a chapter on the standardisation of research animals in an internationally co-authored book which set the standards for research when using animals.

MR CHASKALSON: I'd like to return to these points at a later stage during our questioning.
 Can you tell the Commission what you were doing prior to 1981?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Chairman 1991, and I've sat here for three days and I've listened a lot about memories and fading memories and I must agree I have compassion with the people, it's a long time ago, but I will try to be as accurate as possible.  If I am not sure of anything I will also indicate that I am not sure.
 1991 I was working for the University of Pretoria, the medical faculty and also a joint appointment from the government through the provincial administration, the Department of Hospital Services.  I was appointed from the side of the Department of Hospital Services the superintendent for research at the Medical School, and from the university side I was departmental head or director of the HA Grove Animal Research Centre, which was the centralised higher medical research facility for the university of Pretoria's medical faculty.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you tell us what happened next?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Chairman in relation to where we are going in biological warfare, 1980, 1981, those years were the years of conflict.  We also had reference from you Chairman previously to when was the conflict and when was the conflict over etc, which was very relevant I believe and this whole thing must be said against that background.
 Those were the years of the increasing tempo in conflict both internally and externally.  Those were the years we heard on the television all the time the total onslaught syndrome.  And all the South Africans referring then to white people, which basically it was popular to exclude everyone else as a South African, but people like even Pik Botha, and I am sure it's on tape somewhere, continuously tell us the total onslaught syndrome, Communism is coming etc, etc, so we were motivated to support the government of the day and support them physically, joining up with the military, etc etc.
 So while being involved in medical research we also did our part, many of our South Africans, white South Africans, also some black South Africans I believe, did their part in supporting the military's effort.  In that effort I was involved with the Surgeon-General's office as being a special advisor for veterinary matters.  This was a position I held since 1977 when I finished with my military service, the one year stint.
 In 1977  veterinary service in the medical division of the army or the Defence Force was really non-existent.  It consisted of about a few national servicemen, "dienspligtiges".  After finishing my service I was assisting the Surgeon-General then, General Nieuwoudt in establishing a proper veterinary, I don't know what you call it exactly, division or whatever the military terms will be, but the veterinary facility for supporting animals used in war like the horse centres, the dog centres etc.
 Later on I was more involved after this was established, after the appointment of a permanent officer, veterinary officer.  I was involved in a research committee doing research for the military in developing or improving the efficacy of the use of these animals in the military situation, especially in the border situation in a bush war where horses were used for transport and dogs were used for tracking, sniffer dogs etc.
 So in '81, '82 we had a group of scientists going doing this type of work in civilian institutions, involving places like the University of Pretoria, the Department of Genetics, the Faculty of Veterinary Science; my own institute at the HA Grove Animal Research Centre were involved in this.
 Financially we had quite a bit of leeway those days if you were involved in the military effort and it wasn't really strictly controlled how much money was spent on this, that and the other.  It was taken for care if you were director of a government institution you had a bit of freedom to spend money on military projects.  What we got in return from the military was national servicemen that were qualified as microbiologists, geneticists etc, veterinarians to come and work in our institutions, and also apart from spending time on the military project also spend time on the civilian or the medical problems.

MR CHASKALSON: During this period did you meet Dr Wouter Basson?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Chairman I cannot exactly remember the first time I met Wouter Basson.  It was during the period.  We were working on a project concerning trauma and the effects of trauma on the body, for instance after car crashes, train crashes, the complications after these type of trauma on the body was shock lung, and this project of course was of interest to the medical service of the army or defence force, and we approached the Surgeon-General for assistance in, or his interest in this project and the results of this project of treating trauma, because it was the same type of injuries which were sustained in the war situation.  Either landmines or shootings or whatever, or infections lead to this.  And in this connection with the Surgeon-General I believe Dr Wouter Basson, who was an internist, we made then contact with him on discussing the possibilities and advantages which this projects which we were doing might have and have been applied to in the military situation.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you tell us how you were approached to establish RRL?