Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-02

MR BERGER: And during the time that you kept that spot under observation, did you see any civilian traffic?

UNKNOWN: There was no civilian traffic.

MR BERGER: Sgt-Maj. what is your present position in the SADF?

UNKNOWN: My present position in the South African National Defence Force, I'm a Sergeant-Major, I'm a Company Sergeant-Major.

MR BERGER: Based where?

UNKNOWN: Based at Bethlehem in the Engineer Corps.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.  Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mkhonto, the road that you placed this landmine on, you said that you had observed it for over three days and you hadn't seen many vehicles moving there.

MR BERGER: Sorry, which road?

MS MTANGA: That is the Josefsdal incident where four people were killed and one injured next to the mine.

UNKNOWN: Yes, we have stayed there for three days.  There was no civilian car which has moved to that road for three days and we were not far from the road when we observed the road.  We were about 500 metres away because it's a bushy area, from 500 metres already a bushy area and mountainous area.

MS MTANGA: It's a little bit difficult for us because we don't know this location, but I just want you to kind of paint a picture.  Where was this road coming from, and I understand you say it ended up being a cul-de-sac, but where was it coming from?

UNKNOWN: Okay, coming from the main road, coming from Barberton to the Diepgesit mine then from there it makes a cul-de-sac, it was opened by the army to turn there so that they can ferry logistics to the people who are in the border in the Josefsdal.

MS MTANGA: And then at which point did you place the landmine?

UNKNOWN: At the point, not in the main road but after the turn, then we have moved a kilometre from the turn, then we placed the landmine.

MS MTANGA: When you say after the turn, then it would have been, you would have placed it down towards where the cul-de-sac was, am I right?

UNKNOWN: Ja, not exactly in the cul-de-sac, we have given just some spaces from the cul-de-sac, of a kilometre from there to the cul-de-sac.

MS MTANGA: Okay, in your recollection of that road and I'm assuming you have read the evidence of Mr Motsa who was the victim in that incident.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MS MTANGA: When he says he was injured, the position where he was, how would he have gotten onto this road that you say was not used at all?  In your understanding, where would he be going if he drove onto that road as a civilian?

UNKNOWN: Okay.  There are two roads which go to Diepgesit. Another road is from the Diepgesit up to the Josefsdal where that incident of the horse, then you can't go from the cul-de-sac to that road.  If you're coming with a car, sometimes those people who are staying in that other side, they can come to the cul-de-sac, but there was no car, they don't have a car in those families where Motsa stays, they don't have a car and to go in that cul-de-sac, it was only a military vehicle in most of the time.

MS MTANGA: But then we have it as evidence that the vehicle belonged to a civilian, Mr Sithole, the bakkie that they were driving.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it can be, but he was not yet a member of those families.  Maybe he was ferrying from that person to those areas not know that there's a landmine there.

MS MTANGA: So in your knowledge there were - no one owned a vehicle in that area.

UNKNOWN: There was no family with a vehicle in that family who was staying there at Motsa's family, there was no one who's got a vehicle.

MS MTANGA: Okay.  I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes.  Sergeant-Major, sorry, you may have said this.  Maybe I did not pick it up.  Who was involved with you?  I hear that you keep on saying:  "We did this, we did this".

UNKNOWN: Okay.  My brother.

ADV SANDI: Was it just the two of you?

UNKNOWN: He's a deceased, ja, he's a deceased.  Yes.

ADV SANDI: It was only the two of you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, the two of us.

ADV SANDI: Were you residents in that area?

UNKNOWN: What?

ADV SANDI: Were you residents in that area?

UNKNOWN: No, I was not a resident in those areas, I used to come there just for reconnaissance or when I go for reconnaissance, I go in those areas.  I was not a resident in those areas.  I was outlawed, in exile at that time, I go there only for operation.

ADV SANDI: Now how did you ensure that members of the SADF, the SAP, or any one of the farming communities in that area, how did you ensure that they could not observe your presence?  Were you hiding in the bushes?  Can you just give us a picture?

UNKNOWN: Okay, at about six kilometres there, there was a big camp of counter-insurgency police, about five kilometres.

ADV SANDI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: The other five kilometres it was the South African Defence Force, then in that area there's no farming activities.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but where exactly were you during the time you were conducting your observations and reconnaissance of this particular area?

UNKNOWN: Okay.  My observation, I was in the bush, sleeping in the bush, then because my brother was still - he was still not illegally outside the country, then he's the one who would go and fetch us food and come back and give me the food in the bush.

ADV SANDI: I suppose you had received military training already at that stage?

UNKNOWN: Yes I was already received military training long ago.

ADV SANDI: And your brother?

UNKNOWN: My brother?  Okay, my brother was trained underground.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Sergeant.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'll just try to also get a clearer understanding of this area that we're talking about near the mine.  You said that there's a main road?

UNKNOWN: Yes, there's a main road which links Diepgesit mines and Barberton town.

CHAIRPERSON: And Barberton town, is it a tarred road?

UNKNOWN: Not a tarred road, a dust road.

CHAIRPERSON: But it's a constructed road, it's built, it's constructed as a road?

UNKNOWN: Ja, it's constructed as a road and it links Barberton and the Diepgesit.

CHAIRPERSON: Now there was some traffic on that road that you observed.

UNKNOWN: Okay, the road that I've observed is the one which goes out from the Barberton to Diepgesit mine, to the border area.  It's the one that I've planted the mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes.

UNKNOWN: The one I've observed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll tell you - perhaps you can tell me whether I understand you correctly.  There's, let's call it a main road between Barberton and the mine and then turning off that road, there's another road that stops somewhere close to the mountains and that is the road on which you actually planted the mine.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Now during your reconnaissance of the area there, there was traffic that you observed on the Barberton/Diepgesit Min road, let's call it the main road, there was some traffic there, but you were not much interested in that, your reconnaissance was focused on that gravel road that turns off this main road.  Is that right?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Now you say that's a cul-de-sac, it stops, that road stops?  You drive up to a point and then you've got to actually come back?

UNKNOWN: Yes it will have a cul-de-sac that you can't go anywhere.

CHAIRPERSON: It just takes you to the foot of the mountains or somewhere.

UNKNOWN: And then it becomes a "voetpaadjie" from there for the soldiers, when they collect their food back to the border, back to guard the border.