Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Wasserman, I raised this issue yesterday.  I wish to raise it again.  The Act, the Amnesty Act provides in the preamble that since the Constitution states that in order to advance reconciliation and reconstruction, amnesty shall be granted in respect of acts, etc.  How, Mr Wasserman, in your own mind, speaking for yourself, if amnesty were granted to you, would it advance reconciliation in a country?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, Mr Chairman, at this point in time and with hindsight, there was an awful lot of military action from both sides.  Umkhonto weSizwe were pretty rough, their selection of targets I deem were not as clinical as ours, they attacked far more civilians and it caused us to fight fire with fire and in hindsight now, I regret the fact that a war was actually fought and I hope that we can put it all behind us.  However, we were forced to fight back and I believe we did so honourably, but I do regret the loss of life that occurred in all aspects throughout the South African struggle and I hope it is over and we go forward.

MR WEBSTER: Sorry Mr Chairman, there's just one aspect that I omitted to Mr Wasserman which does not arise from questions that have been put after I've completed my cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Wasserman, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You did say it's just one question, isn't it?

MR WEBSTER: It's just one aspect.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Wasserman, you were then allegedly sent to kwaMashu to fetch arms, correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: that is so, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: You do not know the address of the house that you went to, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: You do not know whether that it in fact had been the house where these people allegedly had been during that day?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't know that Sir.

MR WEBSTER: It could have been in fact the house of the informer or the black member that went with and he got them out of this house.  You cannot help the Commission with that aspect, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't see the house.  I was asked to stop, because I'm a white man, I was asked to stop away from the spot.  The member and I genuinely cannot recall this man, the member then alighted.  It was dark.  He went off and very, very shortly after that, he came back with the sports bag containing weapons.

MR WEBSTER: You don't know where he went to?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He couldn't have been far from where I had stopped, but I do not know where he'd gone to.

MR WEBSTER: You don't know which way they even got them out of the house?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't know if he got them out of the house.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WEBSTER

CHAIRPERSON: In paragraph 16, you deal with this aspect of the matter in Exhibit D.  Do you see that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I do, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When you said that back at the scene of the shooting
"I handed the bag to Director Botha in such a way as not to be seen by others on the scene."
What does that mean?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the kombi that I was in and the victim's motor vehicle was still in position, I then reversed the vehicle that I was in with the bag with the weapons.  I drove it very, very close to where Col Botha was standing and we opened the doors and the bag was then slipped to Mr Botha and then he proceeded to plant the weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the idea is about, I'm concerned really about this having been done purposely to avoid not being seen by others.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir,

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I'm concerned with.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The others were other policemen at the scene, they were not party to our action.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought the other policemen that were there were the Reaction Unit.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir, but by this time even city police and other parties were coming, it was a public place.

CHAIRPERSON: So what did it matter?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: We never at any moment thought that the weapons would not be in the vehicle.  Once I had finished the shooting and Reaction had finished the shooting and we found no weapons in there, it was a problem for us.  I was then instructed to go and get the weapons which we knew belonged to this unit.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.  My question was, why did you do it in such a way so that it could not be seen by the other police?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: We were busy now with a cover-up, Mr Chairman and we didn't want other parties to have any knowledge at all of this activity of ours.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, any further witnesses?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman, that's the evidence which we wish to present to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Webster?

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman at this stage I would ask for the indulgence of the Commission to postpone the hearing to some time next week.  I'd indicated to the Leader of the Evidence the difficulty in which I am and the importance for at least three aspects to be investigated.  Attempts have been, not even attempts, investigations have commenced and a, Chairman you will remember that I've asked Mr Wasserman about Breytenbach.  Mr Breytenbach is not prepared to make a statement yet until he has received guidance, legal guidance regarding that statement that he might make.  I would like to speak to, or at least have an idea of the evidence of Mr Wasserman before I waste the Commission's time by going on a wild goose chase saying that I'm calling a witness when I have no idea what he is going to say.

MR LAX: Sorry, you mean Breytenbach, you said Wasserman.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you are saying there's a possibility that you might call Mr Breytenbach?

MR WEBSTER: Mr Breytenbach.

CHAIRPERSON: And then?

MR WEBSTER: And we might also locate the owner of the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: No you would be telling us that from the beginning.

MR WEBSTER: That is so, Mr Chairman, but unfortunately we don't have the resources to locate these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but then you see, I told you yesterday, it might take months to locate.

MR WEBSTER: No, Mr Chairman, the type of postponement we are seeking is not an indefinite one, but rather some time next week, Wednesday or Thursday.  I believe the Commission has other work that it can continue with.

CHAIRPERSON: No the Commission doesn't have other work on Wednesday and Thursday.  The Commission at present is doing work in such a way that we might sit on Monday.  We are hoping to start a matter today.  If it doesn't finish tomorrow, we'll finish it on Monday, which means that immediately thereafter we'll deal with your matter.

MR WEBSTER: Well, Mr Chairman, if that is the position, we will then fall in line with the availability of the Commission, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You understand there are all kinds of considerations ...(indistinct- microphone turned off) ...unnecessarily unreasonable or anything of the kind, we were hoping to complete this application today in fact.  We are under the impression that you had time yesterday to contact Breytenbach and if he was willing to give evidence, we thought he'd be here today.

MR WEBSTER: Apparently he is willing to testify, but he's not going to testify until he knows the consequences.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now.

MR WEBSTER: But Mr Chairman, the indulgence I think it gives us sufficient time from today till Tuesday, I think it's sufficient time for us to know exactly what our position is.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you know very well that you won't come on Tuesday and ask for a further indulgence, Mr Webster.