Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: He returned in the morning and he was with his girlfriend and from what I learnt from the children who were at home, he instructed them to take something from the house and give it to Alzina, who was on her way to the market.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me.  Did he return to your home, did he enter your premises?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I do not know because I was not at home when that happened.

MR DEHAL: The next question may be relatively unfair, please feel free to tell me if you feel likewise, your father's statement on page 14, indicates that
"The deceased Mbukazi, who was my son during his lifetime ..."
... sorry, I'm reading this from your father's statement.
"... had not slept at home on the previous night."
The impression one gets is that your deceased brother had left your home as you say, presumably to his girlfriend's home, and the next thing you hear is that he is stabbed, you don't see him that morning of the day he died.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he's just told us.  He didn't see him that morning, the children reported to him.  He was not at home at the time.

MR DEHAL: Sorry.  And his earlier version is what I put to him, is that he said he last saw him on that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: But now he's saying the children told him that they were told to take something out to the girlfriend, that they were on the way to the market.
"I was not at home at the time."

MR DEHAL: Yes.  I was going to lead up to the next question, but it may be appropriate at this time to ask you this.  Your version earlier when I cross-examined you was that you last saw your deceased brother on the morning of the day he died leaving with his girlfriend Alzina to go to the market and now you say it was not you who saw him, but the children reported this to you.  What is the truth?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: My brother left home on the evening of the 31st and when he returned I was not at home, I only learnt from the children of what had happened, but I was at a neighbour's home.

MR DEHAL: Yes, so why did you tell us earlier that you last saw your brother at about seven thirty to eight o'clock that morning, when he together with Alzina was going to the market?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I was never asked such a question as to when I last saw him.

MR DEHAL: So you don't recall saying that?

JUDGE DE JAGER: I think that's when I sort of pointed out a confusion because I then asked him
"When did he tell you this?"
... because he said he last saw him at that stage and then he told him that he was on his way to the market and they called him certain words.  So that must have been, when he saw him, after he had been stabbed.  And I think there was -
"I last saw him between seven thirty and eight"
... was - the only sense I could make out of it, was at the time when he was transported to the hospital or when he found him at the scene.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.
	And the person who took your deceased brother to the hospital, was he Mr Mbambo?  Or was it Mr Mbambo's vehicle that was used?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope that we're not now embarking on a completely fresh cross-examination.

MR DEHAL: No, not at all.
	Is this the Mbambo who is Kwazi Mbambo or Gwazi Mbambo?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: The Mbambo who transported my brother is Mr Kwazi Mbambo's father.

MR DEHAL: Finally, did you know as a matter of interest, that Kwazi Mbambo was in the applicant's company on that day when your brother came to be stabbed by the applicant?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: No.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  That is all, Mr Chairperson, I'm indebted to you for the indulgence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any other witnesses you want to call now?

MR PANDAY: Not today, Mr Chairman, except for Alzina tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Gentlemen, what time would it suit you to start in the morning?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, insofar as I am concerned on this matter, I could start at any time, early preferably, but I have one problem and that relates to the next matter.  In the next matter, Mafu's, we have never seen the applicant.  I am appointed to represent him, I have some assistance seated at the back here, we've been endeavouring to consult with him, he's under warder guard, that's Westville Prison warder guard, so that exacerbates the problem.  If I may be give some time to dictate his statement later tonight and have it typed tomorrow, I daresay I think I'll be here by ten, at the latest ten thirty with his statement, but I have no reason to be delayed in this matter, only in that Mafu's matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry I don't understand, does that mean that you'd come here and then go away and come back again?

MR DEHAL: No, I think - sorry, on second thoughts, I think it would be fine, my only problem is I may have to get two people to come here.  So I'll come here as early as you can, Mr Chairperson, but I would - if there are any problems in the Mafu matter, I will have somebody deliver it from my offices to me, that is the dictated statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Nine thirty perhaps, to give a little working time in the morning.

MR PANDAY: That's fine, Mr Chairman.

MR DEHAL: Perfect.

CHAIRPERSON: And everyone else.  Right, we will now adjourn this hearing till nine thirty tomorrow morning and we will endeavour to sort out the other matters tomorrow.  Thank you.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you tell us which matters will be heard tomorrow.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, we'll be dealing with the application of Mafu and Ngema and Nyawuza.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we'll adjourn now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS