Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: There was a statement taken by Mrs (indistinct), or rather by Mr (indistinct).  There was a statement taken from Mr (indistinct) we've heard stories about how those stories they've saved Mr (indistinct).  But they've said under oath that that version given by Mr Siyakamela, who was allegedly the driver of the vehicle that brought Lolo Sono to his father's house on the 30th of November going to Mrs Sono.  And then Mr (indistinct) and (indistinct) advised us that Mrs (indistinct) version fits in with Nicodemus Sono's version.
 Furthermore, we have notes from the AG, Mr van Vuuren's notes which she has given to (indistinct) taken in 1991, which also corroborate the facts taken from Mr Michael Siyakamela.  We have given evidence in this hearing.  We've put Mr Pigou and a journalist, Mr Shilling, on the witness stand.  We repeated a version to them, which corroborated Mr Nicodemus Sono's version.   We've explained to you why we haven't got hold of Mrs Shabalala, we are still trying, but haven't been successful thus far.  In view of this further evidence,  do you still maintain Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that you did not take him to his father's house whilst he was injured, swollen, shivering, scared?  That his father begged you to leave him there? That in fact you merely went to fetch him from his father's house, and dropped him off at Jerry Richardson's house?   Is that still your position?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Even your logic defies me.   If I had this band of boys who were killing so-called informers,  what would have been the logic of me taking a badly injured Lolo to his father to show his father that Lolo is badly injured, and then take him away on the basis that he's an informer, knowing that he is going to disappear?  Your logic surprises me.  There is no such an event,  there is no such incident.

UNKNOWN: : I think (indistinct)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Why would I take him to his father to show him that here's a boy that's been beaten up, and that he's an informer?  When he said that I was supposed to.... in killing informers?  Why would I be doing that?

UNKNOWN: : The explanation given by Mr Sono was that possibly Lolo has stated something or requested to fetch something, which was relevant to whoever was bringing him there in order to enable the people who were with him to bring him to his father's house so that his father could try and rescue him.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : There must be ...(indistinct) as far as I'm concerned.  They would have just gone to collect or something (indistinct) he said yes.  Why would he go and show his father that he (indistinct) injured.  It doesn't make any sense.

UNKNOWN: : Well, the suggestion made by Katiza Cebekhulu was that Lolo Sono said he had certain documents which could possibly have implicated him and that's why he had been brought to his house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I honestly hope even you do not believe in the lunatic statement that has been made by Cebekhulu.  I really hope so.

UNKNOWN: : Well, we have  Nicodemus Sono's version.  We have reports of Mr Siyakamela's version,  we have what Mr Katiza Cebukhulu said, we have Mr (indistinct) what Mr (indistinct) told him, and we have what Mr van Vuuren I believe, the notes that he gave to your Counsel saying what Mr Siyakamela told him.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : When one of the (indistinct) were here, I think that evidence about the torture of his clients as how he was tortured to give a false statement, how he was tortured and killed, he submitted himself, and gave false statement.  What validity can I attach to a statement extracted by (indistinct), or any other policeman during those days.  People died, having then been forced to say things they did not do.  That was South Africa of yesterday which we are trying to forget here but instead we are doing the opposite.

UNKNOWN: : Well, the very last time that Mrs Siyakamela gave that version was last Saturday, and that wasn't under any pressure when he confirmed the version given to us by Mr Sono.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Well, I do not know about that.  That is my view, and I hold that view.

UNKNOWN: : Let's move on then.
 The statement issued by the Democratic Movement on the 15th of February, 1989, which you at a Section 29 Inquiry suggested was possibly a Stratcom operation,  subsequently we had Mr Cachalia and Mr Morobe confirming that they were party to the statement, and it represented the Democratic Movement at the time.  Very briefly, (indistinct)
"We are outraged by the reign of terror  that the team has been associated with.  The practices have violated the spirit and ethos of the Democratic Movement.  Numerous efforts have been made to reconcile the conflict between Mrs Mandela and the community.  The last of these efforts was intervention of the Crisis Committee comprising some of our most able and respected members.  On every occasion Mrs Mandela has refused to co-operate, and has chosen to disregard the sentiment of the community......"
It goes on, you know the statement.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, Mr Chairman, it was not surprising then,  it is still not surprising there today.  We all know the statement which was made by (indistinct) before this forum.  The last paragraph of which was the recommendation that people like myself should hold political office.  The whole (indistinct) of having done that effort at the time, was precisely because of what he was trying to do to this day, and we out there know (indistinct) and in fact when I returned from Brandfort, and I made enquiries about Molefe Morobe, the youth of the day told me that  he was Mefi Patel, because he belongs to the (indistinct).

UNKNOWN: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, (indistinct) the allegation regarding the statement now, previously you said it was Stratcom, now you're talking about something else.
 Let me go on.  These two other statements that were issued.

CHAIRPERSON: : Mr Hanif, can I find out how much more?

UNKNOWN: : Ten minutes, Archbishop.

CHAIRPERSON: : Alright.

UNKNOWN: : There's two more statements issued.  The one by the Mandela Crisis Committee or rather, the one was sent by the Mandela Crisis Committee to the late President of the ANC, Mr Oliver Tambo and you're aware of that statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : That is the statement which means Mufamadi was cowardly enough not to own up to me when it was (indistinct) and before this forum, he denied that we had a discussion of that sort.

UNKNOWN: : But this is a statement, where four prominent people under oath confirmed that they were party to the statement, and had in fact sent it to Mr Oliver Tambo.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I ...(indistinct) here, about all I said, I didn't know (indistinct), nor did they ever present that statement to me.