Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

REV THEMA: We did have some discussions, I think, Professor Piet Meiring if he can remember, in one of these big meetings of the Dutch Reformed Church, someone speaking about the God of the Afrikaners and we disputed that.  We did not know the God of the Afrikaners, we knew of God the Father of Jesus Christ and that God is God of all humankind.  Then, of course, came black theology with interpretation of the Scriptures and, of course, because it differed it presented Christ differently from the whites whose theology was a, sort of, theology of the pie in the sky and in black theology we were speaking of Christ who must be involved here and now with the people.  This was some of the things
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and, of course, as we spoke about these things our young people came behind us and, I think, at that point we saw the young people be more interested in Church because they were hearing of Christ not who hangs and hold parties in the clouds, but Christ who was involved in their family lives, in their personal lives, in their community life, in the congregations and everywhere.

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much Reverend Thema.  I will refer you back to our Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I will start off, Professor Piet Meiring.

PROF MEIRING: Brother Thema, thank you for your testimony and things you have told us about.  We have lived through them together.  Many of the things I wanted to ask you have already answered.  One thing that remains in my mind is that I have heard that in your congregation, especially, you were able to really retain the young people.  You touched on that just now in the last remarks you made, but can you tell us a little bit about that?  It must have been a very difficult thing to be a Minister in 1976 in Soweto, especially for a Minister of the Dutch Reformed Church, but you were able to hold the young people to your congregation and how did you do that?

REV THEMA: You will remember that I started by indicating that when June 16th broke out I was in the United States.  I had left South Africa on the 14th of September after cutting the sword of the Mission House in the Square in Orlando East.  Everybody knows that and then when I came back I found that house being almost complete.  Instead of getting into it, for an example, I remained for an extra year living in a three roomed house in our Orlando community because that house was a house of refuge for the students,
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the young people who were being harassed by the police at their homes.  So they could go there and take refuge there.  At the same time the students, I think, understood our role.  Just to mention one.  
 For an example, when for the whole night, in the very house, I was already living in that house.  The National Student Bodies came and held a conference in my house.  The coloured students and the indian students had come to ask the black students why are you not involved in our struggle?  It is during the riots in Eldorado Park and other places.  Of course, the black students asked them, where were you when we were involved in the struggles?  They said, the coloureds and the indians said, no, we did not understand what was happening.  The black students said, we understood and we understand exactly what is happening to you and then, of course, the debate culminated in, can we join you in, what is this, Congress of South African Students, COSAS.  The black students said, no, we welcome your request to come and join us, but it is not an opportune time for you to come in.  We are heavily stepped by the system.  Most of our leaders are in prison, we are on the run, we are in disarray and if you come in now, you only introduce yourself to the brutalities that you cannot stand for.  This was said in my own house.  
 Remember at the same time that at that time we speak about the students.  After October 1977, when we woke up on the 19th of October to find everything gone, the Press, leaders detained, people burned, I became the Chairman of the Sowetan Action Committee.  Of course, I handled the country until the people were released a year later and during those times most of the people involved were the 
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students, were the young people.  Some of them, today, are Ministers.  On my Committee I had people like Popo Malefie and some of them are killed like Elesetsie Mosala and all those.  That is how the young people, in actual fact, came to my side and understood my role and beyond that I was also the founder Chairman of AZAPO.  
 At that point I was pulling this whole country, unifying the forces.  I did not have the problem of this one pulling that way and that way.  I still remember in the AME Church speaking about the united organisations of South Africa and, of course, we were all pushing for a common enemy.  All these things led the people, the young people and the community people to understand my role and, of course, at the end when the people were released, when they came out, for those months I was warned and then I, also, recommended that we should have the civic aspect of the political organisation.  Then we came up with the Committee of Ten and then we had Committee of Ten taking over the civic political, being in charge of the civic life and AZAPO being in charge of the political life.  
 Until we got the conflict between AZAPO and UDF which was a misfortune because it was, we do not know exactly how we were infiltrated and people could come up with this thing.  Then, even when we came to that, I was the mediator between AZAPO and UDF.  That is how the people were on my side.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to thank you for your perspective.  This is a challenge especially for young people to realise that there are many people who ran a race before them and who have survived, who are today able to celebrate and tell the story.  We hope what you did, the
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struggles you waged within the Church will be continued especially during this critical time of our life, that is the reconstruction of people's minds as well.  We thank you very much Reverend Thema.

REV THEMA: Can I make a, just if I could make a contribution towards the future.  I would like to make this observation that if our Government could take cognisance of the fact that we have no police culture.  If from the 1950's the law enforcement agencies were eroded we may not have the hope of having a foreseeable, of having peace in the foreseeable future and I would like to say, perhaps, to overcome this problem we should start with launching a real fundamental training of the police and our approach should not be just an ordinary approach.  We should involve even ethicists from universities in this training because at the moment even the highest, the top men in the police force, in the security forces, they have no cultural security nor of law and order and those people are, by definition, not police.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
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