Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Oh, 21st of October, okay, I have got it Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: The Hansard is on page 2 -  "Mr du Plessis"

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What portion of the speech are you referring to?

GEORGE BIZOS: Right-hand corner.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right-hand corner, yes?

GEORGE BIZOS: Right-hand bottom section, the Honourable member said that he was at the Voortrekker Monument like apparently you were.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I have that paragraph Mr Chairman, third from the bottom.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you want me to read it again or do you want to read it to yourself.  Have the Committee members got it?

GEORGE BIZOS: R3 and it has inner divisions and it is in division F, and each division is numbered and I am looking at page 2, Mr Chairman.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have it Mr Chairman.  It says here -"My Honourable leader has said repeatedly that nothing gives an individual the right to commit crimes or misdeed".
	But I wasn't acting ...

GEORGE BIZOS: You are reading the second paragraph, please read the first paragraph.  I have read it into the record, you can read it aloud or to yourself, please yourself.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Can Mr Bizos repeat the question now Mr Chairman.  I have the ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Could there have been any doubt in your mind after this statement in Parliament, which was both after the Voortrekker Monument speech and after the Kimberley congress document that you produced in evidence, came into being?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, there could have Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There could have.  If you look at Appendix A which we submitted with all of those acts of sabotage from the 8th of February 1990, other people also got the same message I got regardless of what is said here.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, just one moment please.  We will come to that exhibit and I will ask you questions there.  There is a difference between acts of violence committed by unknown people and the statement in Parliament of the leader of a political party saying that our party is not for violence.
	Deal with the question on the basis of that you knew that your leader in 1992, October, said that despite the speech at the Voortrekker Hoogte and despite the document of the Kimberley resolution, our party is against violence.  Deal with that please.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, this paragraph
"My Honourable leader has said repeatedly that nothing gives an individual the right to commit crimes or misdeeds"
he is saying he said repeatedly, he didn't say when he said it.	Mr Du Plessis was now referring to what had been said in the past by the leader of the CP.

GEORGE BIZOS: You don't seem to come to terms with my question.  Either you do not understand it or you do not want to answer it, I will try again Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There is no reason not to answer.

GEORGE BIZOS: A member of the President's Council in relation to the policy of his party, doesn't have to rely on snippets in the Patriot, either in English or Afrikaans, doesn't have to rely on loose statements made by your wife or other contributors to the Patriot, you are a senior office bearer of the Conservative Party and a senior colleague of your says in Parliament this is our policy against violence.
	Could there have been any doubt in your mind that the CP was against violence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: At the time that Mr Du Plessis made the speech?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There was still doubt.  But in 1993 Mr Chairman, there was very little doubt when one considers what my leader said then.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, please, please Mr Derby-Lewis.  In your documents, and I will refer you to chapter and verse if need be, you said that what inspired you to believe that your party was for violence was, and you repeated it often, the third freedom struggle speech of Dr Treurnicht at the Voortrekker Monument and the Kimberley document, both those events occurred prior to the speech of Mr Du Plessis in Parliament.
	Question - could there have been any doubt in the mind of any responsible leader of the Conservative Party such as yourself, that the Conservative Party  ... (tape ends) ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Dr Treurnicht held a speech at the Paardekraal Monument, 10th of October 1992, where he clearly expressed war sentiments.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where is that speech?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I do have a copy of the report on that  ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: We can have it thank you.  You say that it was the 10th of October what year?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Of 1992.

GEORGE BIZOS: This was on the 21st of October 1992?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman, that is why I say there could have been confusion.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you not going to say that the leader of the Conservative Party talks of war on the 10th of October at the Paardekraal Monument and a senior member of the Conservative Party talks with a different tongue in Parliament, 11 days later, is that what you are saying?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What I am saying Mr Chairman, is that Mr Du Plessis was referring to violence, Dr Treurnicht was talking war.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, I see, there is a difference is there, between killing people in war and killing people by assassins?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There is, Mr Chairman, there is.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that a form of your Conservative Party logic Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, assassination is an act of war, it can occur during a war situation.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Clearly so.

GEORGE BIZOS: So what you are saying is that Conservative Party policy, as at the 21st of October, was different in relation to destroying property, they mustn't do that, but they can go and kill people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, what I am saying is that in a war-time situation, and I was convinced that the Conservative Party was preparing for war, then acts of that nature could have been committed.

GEORGE BIZOS: I will merely give you a final opportunity for today to say anything else that you may want to say but briefly if you can, how could you possibly have said in your applications as you did that what prompted you to do this was primarily the Monument speech and the Kimberley congress, how could you have said that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I said that the Monument speech in 1990 called the people up to the third freedom struggle.  By 1992 it was quite clear that Mr De Klerk had closed the constitutional door to us, so no matter what was being said, the criteria which had been established by the Conservative Party for participation in the democratic process and a constitutional route, had been closed and the Conservative Party had said on numerous occasions that violence would be justifiable in a situation where the Constitutional path was closed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, that is a condition or threat of going over to violence in the future at some time.  Look at the last sentence of the previous paragraph Mr Derby-Lewis.
"There were 130 000 people present on that occasion, how many of them have gone out and planted bombs?"
as a rhetorical question, as reproof of Mr Botha that he was alone and that is why he stood alone at K-court in Pretoria and nobody went there to give him any moral or other support.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already referred to appendix A in which it is quite clear how many people went out and planted bombs.

GEORGE BIZOS: On behalf of the Conservative Party, do you say Sir?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am saying in response to what Dr Treurnicht initially said on the 26th of May 1990, it set the thought process in motion ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you say that the acts enumerated in that annexure were done on behalf of the Conservative Party Sir, yes or no?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I say I did it on behalf of the Conservative Party and in support of the Conservative Party and in support of the Afrikaner's freedom struggle.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please answer the question Sir.