Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

HASSAN MALL: I understand your evidence to mean that you yourself did not know that Glad Mokgatle was going to be killed on that day, that it just happened.

MR DIALE: Yes, that's correct.

HASSAN MALL: So neither the action committee nor the ANC knew beforehand that on that day Glad Mokgatle was going to be killed?

MR DIALE: Yes, that's correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Diale, if I may ask you this personal question.  Up to what standard have you attended school?

MR DIALE: I did Std 10.

JUDGE MGOEPE: In the Phokeng area?

MR DIALE: Yes, I attended school here.

JUDGE MGOEPE: A great deal of reference has been made since
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this morning to the struggle about the - the struggle around, shall I say the position of occupation or control, in fact, of this building.  Before I come to that, for purposes of the record, by the way, by this building, we mean the - this building is the Baphokeng civic centre.  Am I right?  Is somebody interpreting for you or ...

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I believe it has been built by the tribe and it is the property of the tribe.  Am I right?

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Does this building in some way, is it a symbol of power? In other words, if I may explain to you what I mean, anybody having control to it, like having the keys and controlling access into it, does it mean a lot to the people?

MR DIALE: Yes, we have explained, this building belongs to the tribe.  Any person who holds the keys to the building is the person who works hand in hand with the council in connection with the building.  He or she cannot do as he or she pleases without the council.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So the fact that the keys to this building were in possession of the one or the other person, was it of importance?

MR DIALE: The keys, because we knew that they were in this gentleman's possession.  The chairman installed by Mr Mangope. We could get everything from him.  He was the only person who was doing everything in the tribe, even the keys were in his possession or his secretary.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Diale, your legal representative, Mr Currin, sought to indicate to you, before this Committee could consider granting amnesty to anybody, that person has
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got to take the Committee into its full confidence and to open up and say all that needs to be said, so that we should be able to have a full picture of the degree and nature of your participation in the offence in respect of which you seek amnesty.  I don't think I have a clear picture of the nature and extent of your participation.  That is very vital. Just what part did you personally play?  I am referring to the actual assault of the deceased which led to his death.  We need to know that.

MR DIALE: As I have already mentioned, that I was one of the people who attacked and our attack led to Mr Mokgatle's death.  The reasons why I took part are the following.  Because I was emotional. I indicated that my chief was taken into exile.  That is the first reason. I wanted my chief to be put back to his right place.  The second reason, I wanted the Bophuthatswana Government to be dismantled and the third reason, by killing Mr Mokgatle our struggle would continue, because there was already a conflict between ourselves as 10 members of the committee.  Others said let us hold him hostage and the others said let us attack him, and we decided it would be better to sweep him off.  And we decided that if our struggle continues it would be a very good struggle and we wanted our chief to be back.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But I don't think, it may be that the question was not put across to you, as I put it.  My question was not why you assaulted him.  My question was how did you assault him.  What did you do?  We need to know that.  Did you chop him with a panga?  Then go and pick up a stone and hit him on his head and he tried to run, you tripped him and then held him down and so on, et cetera? These are, however unpleasant it may be for you to say that,
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I'm afraid this is what should be done.

MR DIALE: If it is a request from the Committee, I will have to state it clearly.  I kicked him and I hit him with my fists and I strangle his neck.  That's the part I took in the killing.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did he plead for his life at any stage?

MR DIALE: While I was kicking him and he wasn't bleeding at all.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Oh, I'm sorry, I meant to say, did he plead for his life, not bleed, plead for his life at any stage?

MR DIALE: The only word that I could hear he said "I know you, I know you guys who are doing these things".

ADV DE JAGER: Sir, you told us that you had no attention to kill the deceased.  Is that correct?

MR DIALE: It is like that, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And during the journey you became very angry and everybody became very angry.  Is that correct?

MR DIALE: It is like that, it is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Now I am accepting that you had no intention to kill the deceased.  When did you form that intention or did you act emotionally in killing him?

MR DIALE: What made us to become emotional, was when Mr Mokgatle came out armed with a panga and he was aggressive and this made us become very emotional.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but at that stage you still only wanted to take him as hostage, not to kill him.

MR DIALE: Yes, the intention was to hold him hostage, but when he took out a panga and threatened to attack one of us, we saw that he is no more co-operative.  We also asked him about the case and he replied. This made us become very angry and emotional, and we were also surprised in becoming
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aggressive.

ADV DE JAGER: Now so you took him to the Kombi and you drov off with him. When you put him in the Kombi, was it already with the intention to go and kill him or was it to take him hostage?

MR DIALE: It was our intention to hold him hostage, but unfortunately some of us in the Kombi, they were so angry that they took an action.

ADV DE JAGER: So did they kill him because they couldn't control their emotions and acted because of that, or did they at that stage intend to kill him?

MR DIALE: We didn't have any intention to kill him.  We wanted to kidnap him, but because he didn't want to give us the keys and we were surprised to have changed our ideas so quickly and we just decided to sweep him off, to kill him.

ADV DE JAGER: So I want to put it to you, because I want to give you the opportunity to explain to us when you changed your intention, if you have changed it, or whether you acted out of pure frustration and emotion?

MR DIALE: When the Kombi stopped, that's when we changed our minds, because others were saying let him be killed and others said no, let us just keep him holding him hostage.  Now the ones who were saying let him be killed, were more than those ones who were saying let us just keep him and then at the end we found ourselves agreeing together that he should be killed.

ADV DE JAGER: There was a decision then at a stage to kill him.

MR DIALE: It is like that, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And what was your - the reason for taking that decision?
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MR DIALE: The main reason, we didn't want him to identify us. I think I have already indicated that the other reason was that we wanted the Bophuthatswana Government to realise that we want our chief back.   Now so that they can see that we are serious about bringing our chief back, and we wanted them to remove the acting chief on the Baphokeng leadership.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you, Mr Diale.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Diale.  Can you just bring us into the picture of the action committee.  When did it actually come into existence?