Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] Mrs Mandela had told you that he was in possession of medical evidence?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I don't think we said to him: "Mrs Mandela says you are in possession of medical evidence" but what we did say to him was that we were told that he has seen the children and the he has examined them, would he be willing to share with us what his findings were when he examined them.  That is what we said to him and that the request we made to him.

MR KADES: And did you question him as to whether he'd been to the Mandela home to examine the children at any stage?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: No, we didn't ask him that.

MR KADES: Did you question him as to whether he'd seen Stompie at any time subsequent to the 29th of December?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Well, I think earlier on we said we did not ask him about individual names of the young people, we asked him about the young people as a group.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR KADES: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Peter Soller on behalf of Zekele Mbatha.
 Mr Minister, in all these years that have gone by, are you suggesting that you ever had the bona fide belief that the killing of Doctor Asvat was not politically motivated for some ulterior purpose?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Can you start the question, we've missed the beginning.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Can you repeat yourself please.

MR SOLLER: Mr Minister, Peter Soller on behalf Zekele Mbatha.  In the years that you've been involved with the investigation into the killing of the late Doctor Asvat, have you for one moment thought that it could not have been a killing for any motive other an ulterior political motive?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Well, I think I must put it to you that I was not involved in the investigation of the killing of Doctor Asvat and I'm saying personally directly.  I was approached by the family of Doctor Asvat years later after the incident and they were approaching me in my capacity as Minister of Safety and Security.
 They will attest to the fact that I agreed - I concerted to their request that the matter be reopened for investigation.  I think that when the police come here they will tell you about what leads they followed, what statements they put before the Attorney General and I think the police are best placed - together with the Attorney General, to really answer your question because one of the things that I've never done in this case and in any other case, was to call for these statements which must be given to the Attorney General to be given to me.

MR SOLLER: Thank you Mr Minister.  As the present head of the South African Police Services - Head, Minister of South African Police Services, would you be prepared in the fact of an undertaking by Mr Mbatha who as you know received the death sentence for the ghastly occurrence, would you be prepared to reopen and allow Mr Mbatha to tell you what he really believes you ought to know as the Minister involved.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: You know, my instruction to the National Commissioner of the South African Police Services is that, should there be a request for any investigation to be re-opened - and that includes this one specifically, the investigation must be re-opened.

MR SOLLER: I'm indebted to you Mr Minister, and that tender is formally made on behalf of my client.  I'm indebted to you Mr Minister, and that tender is formally made on behalf of my client Mr Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Well, I don't want to be impolite but your client knows how to reach me when they want to make a request like that, they've been to my office before.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to give you really just maybe two question each.

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson, I need more than just two, maybe seven.

MR UNTERHALTER: Chair, I see that the luncheon appears to be here - I will need more than two questions, I will at least need my five minutes.  I don't know if this would be an appropriate time.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  I think we probably will have to break for lunch and come back at a quarter to 2.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] people on my right, you are actually very, very, good, you've been very, very, nice.  Order, order!  Thank you.  I was just saying that the people on my right, these wonderful lawyers here have been very good and disciplined, I'm giving you five minutes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Mr Chair.  My name David Unterhalter and I act for the Sono, Shabalala and Chili families, all of whom have suffered in various ways as a result of the activities of the Mandela Football Club.
 Perhaps I could begin Reverend Chikane, by asking you a question.  As I understood it, one of your concerns was that the football club could be used by agents of the regime to discredit and even endanger Mrs Mandela, is that correct?

FRANK CHIKANE: That's correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: But am I also correct in thinking that you had another concern and that was that members of the football club were actually committing unlawful acts and endangering the community in various ways?

FRANK CHIKANE: That's correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: So both of these were concerns of you and the Committee in the period that the Committee operated?

FRANK CHIKANE: That's correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now, was it also clear to you as members of the community that there were many and wide ranging concerns and allegations about unlawful conduct by the football club?

FRANK CHIKANE: I must answer for myself that I had heard some of those allegations especially after the Dobsonville meeting.

MR UNTERHALTER: But even before the Dobsonville meeting - and if I can refer you specifically to the incidents surrounding the burning down of Mrs Mandela's house, the allegations included for example, rapes that had been committed upon school girls, is that correct?

FRANK CHIKANE: That's correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: And these complaints were not the complaints of police agents, these were complaints of members of the community, is that not so?

FRANK CHIKANE: That's correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now, you've explained to us how you sort to mediate the problems that arose at the time of the burning down of Mrs Mandela's house and you've also told us that the complaints of the community were put to Mrs Mandela, what was her response to those complaints as to the football club and it's activities?

FRANK CHIKANE: We have answered that question already.

MR UNTERHALTER: Could I ask you - just for my purposes, to place that on the record?

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, it's not as quiet as it should be - please, thank you.

FRANK CHIKANE: We have answered the question and it's in our submission that we have put those allegations to Mrs Mandela around the alleged kidnapping and assault.   And later in the process when we were dealing with those young people and recommending they leave, we indicated - there were all sorts allegations, the best way is simply to remove them from there.

MR UNTERHALTER: Sorry, we're at cross-purposes Reverend Chikane, I'm referring to the earlier time when the house was burnt down and the communities complaints were about rape.  You put those to Mrs Mandela - that's what you've told us already, what was her response to what was being put to her by you?

FRANK CHIKANE: She denied those allegations.

MR UNTERHALTER: She denied those allegations.
 Now you've also told us that it was the request both of the community and certainly of your Committee, that the club should be disbanded and that Mrs Mandela was reluctant to do so, is that correct?

FRANK CHIKANE: That's correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: So it would be true therefore that the club continued in existence at the time when you came later to investigate the incidents around the abduction of the young people and the Stompie incident, is that correct?