Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Before I start, would you please refer to paragraph (b) on page 23 of the bundle.  You have a bundle available to you.  The applicant doesn't have a bundle of the papers.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: ..(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: You can read it to him.

MR RICHARD: At that page there's a question which asks your justification for regarding such acts, omission/omissions or offence/offences as act/acts omission/omissions or offences associated with a political objective, you answer is
"Please refer to J I Dube's statement"
It's in handwriting, whose handwriting is that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It's mine.

MR RICHARD: Now when did you complete that document?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't remember the date.

MR RICHARD: Was it this year, last year, the year before?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It cannot be this year.

MR RICHARD: According to the last page of the document, that's page 26, you signed the affidavit on the 9th of May 1997 while in Cape Town.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did not sign it in Cape Town.

MR RICHARD: Because here there's a date stamp which says
"Family advocate to translate it/"Gesins advokaat Hooggeregshof/High Court, KPA, Cape Provincial Administration."
... and that date stamp.  So that means you weren't there when that person put his date stamp on the document, you weren't in Cape Town at all.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should read a little higher, it's not only the date stamp, the document says
"This declaration was duly sworn to, solemnly affirmed before me on this 9th day of May 1997 at Cape Town."

MR RICHARD: Did you hear what the Honourable Judge said?  If you look at page 26, paragraph 7, is that incorrect?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I wrote the statement in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you in fact ever been to Cape Town?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, the next inference I must draw is no-one asked you to take an oath when you completed this document, no-one asked you whether it was true, whether you had read it, whether you regarded an oath as binding on your conscience, or whether you had an objection to taking an oath, or any of those things?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is so.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Richard.
	Do you know this person whose name is written here as a Commissioner of Oaths, Samodien Mohammed?  Is that name known to you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: If we go back one page, if you look at the bottom of the page on page 25, is that your signature?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It is my handwriting.

MR RICHARD: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do with the form when you'd finished filling it up?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I submitted it to the TRC Desk at the ANC offices.

MR RICHARD: Where is that office?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Shell House.

MR RICHARD: Now when you say you submitted it, you went there with the completed form and handed it to the desk, who was at the desk?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I went to Shell House, obtained the form and filled it in there, but I do not remember the person with whom I left the form, he was the head of that desk.

MR RICHARD: Now while you were filling it in were you with people or were you alone or did you have assistance?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I filled it on my own.

MR RICHARD: What documents did you have with you while you filled it in, what papers?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: This is the only form that I filled in.

MR RICHARD: So that means you had no documents to which you referred and you filled in the form completely from your own memory and there was nothing else with it when you handed it to the desk?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is true.

MR RICHARD: Now if you go to page 23, again paragraph (b), you make a statement there, would you please read it out - I'll read it to you
"Please refer to Mr J I Dube's statement."

MR RICHARD: At that stage did you know what the statement said, or which statement it was?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He's the first person who applied with regards to this matter and he informed me that he had applied for the matter and thereafter I also went to apply.

MR RICHARD: But from your answer I gather you didn't know what his application said or what it contained or what was annexed to it.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He had a copy which he showed to me.

MR RICHARD: Well when did he show it to you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: After he had submitted his application.

ADV SANDI: You say he showed it to you, did you read this statement of Mr Dube?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I read the statement that he had written.

MR RICHARD: Now if you go to page 3 of the bundle, on the top right-hand corner you'll see a date stamp which reads
"Truth and Reconciliation Commission 1997-05-10."
And something of the Investigation Unit:
"National Director"
Do you see that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now your application is dated the 9th, so that means you saw Mr Dube's statement after the 10th, isn't that obvious from the papers?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is not true.

MR RICHARD: Well why then do you say to me that you saw it after Mr Dube handed in his application, because he handed it in on the 10th, you handed yours in the day before?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you say he handed it in on the 10th? The date stamp you've got is the date stamp of the Investigative Unit.

MR RICHARD: Well the only other ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So that is when they got it.

MR RICHARD: I take your point.
	Now what we're now getting to is, did you read Mr Dube's statement?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I read it.

MR RICHARD: Now if we go to page 10 you'll see a document there which says
"Statement sworn under oath"
Is that the document you read?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Did you discuss  its contents with Mr Dube?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, we did not discuss it.

MR RICHARD: But did you read it carefully?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I read it.

MR RICHARD: Even if you didn't take an oath when you handed in your application, which may render it ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Richard, you asked him if he read that statement carefully and his answer was just that he read it.
	Did you follow the question, Sir?  The question was whether you read this statement carefully, how carefully did you go through it?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I read it and I understood it.

MR RICHARD: And at that stage you were happy that this statement correctly recorded the sequence of events and the details of the shooting of the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I saw it as being general.

MR RICHARD: Were you aware that it set out a version of what happened in what order of events?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, it was a broad and general statement.

MR RICHARD: Do that mean you felt at liberty at some other stage to amplify, to vary it, to change it, to adapt it?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: If there is something that is not clearly understood, I can explain it.

MR RICHARD: But did you realise that that was a version that you represented to be the truth?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And do you represent it to be the truth?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now when Mr Dube gave it to you, what did he tell you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He told me that he had applied for amnesty with regards to the death of Sicelo and because I was also involved in the matter it would be advisable if I apply as well.

MR RICHARD: And  you gave you this statement, and what did he say about this statement?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Did he tell you that that was his version of what had happened and you should support him or disagree with him, amplify it, vary it, put in a statement of your own, any of the above?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: However, ...(intervention)