Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is right.  Patrick Titi was detained, this was on the 12th, and I can refer to Exhibit G in the previous amnesty application.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words, can you just identify the document, is that the document marked G in the previous application, it is a handwritten statement from one Patric Titi?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is right.

ADV BOOYENS: This was dated 26 August 1977, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is right.

ADV BOOYENS: That will be Exhibit C, Mr Chairman.  From when was Titi detained?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: From about the 12th.

ADV BOOYENS: If you refer to a date, is it the 12th of August?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The 12th of August 1977.

ADV BOOYENS: What information did you have already when you got to Mr Jones, that we have established was on the 24th, 25th?  What information did you gather from Mr Titi?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Who was responsible for the drafting of this pamphlet, my Annexure 7, page 135.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the same aspect as which you interrogated Mr Jones?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you state according to your statement that you hit him to get that information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you already had that information from Mr Titi?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct, but he was a single person Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, and Mr Jones, would he have given evidence against Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: At that stage I believed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your instruction not to gather evidence that would incriminate him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is right, but he was not such a leaders' figure, if I could refer to the difference between Mr Biko and Mr Jones.  It would have been better to build up a case against Mr Biko than against Mr Jones, that is how I interpreted it at that stage.

ADV BOOYENS: Just following on the Chairperson's question, the final decision to whom is to be charged, was that in your hands?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, this was the decision of the senior officer.

ADV BOOYENS: Let's start again, on the 25th or on the 24th of August, did you deal with Mr Jones?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is right.

ADV BOOYENS: Previously, before the 24th of August, did you deal with Mr Jones?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I did not.

ADV BOOYENS: Any other opportunity, did you visit or assault Mr Jones where he was held between 18th and 24th of August?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, the only time that I visited him at the cell was when I went to fetch him, fetched him and took him to the Security office.

ADV BOOYENS: Tell us, let's start with the interrogation on the 24th, who was doing the questioning, who is questioned, what happened?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The interrogation team under leadership of Major Snyman, Captain Siebert, Warrant Officer Marx and myself were busy with Mr Jones.
	The interrogation was done by Captain Siebert and Mr Jones did not cooperate, he was very arrogant, he did not want to answer our questions.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you feel about his arrogance?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He was full of himself.  I did not venture any opinion.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know how did you feel about his arrogance?  Were you angry?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I was not angry.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you question him yourself?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I was just there, I did not ask any questions.

ADV BOOYENS: You were of junior rank?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is right.

ADV BOOYENS: How long would you say was this interrogation session?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was the whole day, eight hours according to me.

ADV BOOYENS: On the 24th?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: We are still on the 24th, Your Worship.  We are still coming to the 25th.

ADV BOOYENS: Were you there the whole day on the 24th, can you remember?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, I moved in and out Mr Chairman, but most of the time I was there.

ADV BOOYENS: On the 24th, did you do anything physically to Mr Jones?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you have any knowledge of anybody else who did anything to Mr Jones?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOOYENS: The interrogation of the 24th, did you gather anything substantial from that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, Mr Chairman.

ADV BOOYENS: Did Mr Jones spend the night at Sanlam Building?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, he was taken back.

ADV BOOYENS: By whom?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: By myself and Captain Siebert.

ADV BOOYENS: Tell us about the 25th.

CHAIRPERSON: At the end of the 24th, the Security Police were not any further with their interrogation, with reference to Mr Jones?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

ADV BOOYENS: Tell us about the 25th.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: On the 25th he was taken from Algoa Park by myself and Captain Siebert and taken to the interrogation office.

CHAIRPERSON: How long was he in the interrogation on the 24th?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I have stated previously, approximately eight hours.

ADV BOOYENS: Continue on the 25th.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The 25th was the same procedure, all of us were present.

ADV BOOYENS: Everybody meaning the interrogation team?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is right, Major Snyman, Captain Siebert, Warrant Officer Marx and myself.
	At some stage I was alone with him.  I interrogated him.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day would that have been?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: This was about ten o'clock.  I am guessing now.

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand that.  How long would he have been at the offices?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He was already there from eight o'clock the morning.

ADV DE JAGER: In which language did the interrogation take place on the 24th, and in which language did it take place on the 25th?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was in English.  Once in a while it would have been Afrikaans.

ADV DE JAGER: What was Mr Jones' language?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was English, but he can speak Afrikaans.

ADV BOOYENS: At about ten o'clock on the 25th?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I interrogated him and he was evasive, he gave evasive answers.

ADV BOOYENS: What do you mean evasive answers?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He did not answer my questions directly.

ADV BOOYENS: Okay, he gave evasive answers and then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: There was a green hose that was in the office.  I took it and I hit him several times with this hose on his back, and I hit him very hard.  He even cried and according to me, it was painful, he was suffering from a lot of pain.

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately how many times did you hit him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: If I have to guess, approximately between five and ten lashes.  I am guessing again.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it only on his back?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mostly on his back because he was standing bent over and I assume most of the lashes were on his back.

CHAIRPERSON: At which stage in terms of the hitting, did he start to cry?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was about after five to six hits that I gave him.

CHAIRPERSON: And you hit him after he cried?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, I still hit him.

ADV SIGODI: What was the purpose of the green hose to be there, why was it there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The hose was to remove fuel.  The person was doing coast duty, coast patrolling and it was to take along extra fuel.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your evidence that this hose was there by accident in that office at that stage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Do you still remember how long it was?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was approximately if I have to guess, it is about one meter.

ADV DE JAGER: Whose office was this?