Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

ZAMA THUTHA: I did say that point that you are raising about Mike Meyers being shot by Thandekulo, I shot Mike Meyers.
	Please don't ask me that again.  The girl, Donnie Meyers, I did not notice at the time that she was shot, however when we got to Mbashi, Thandekulo shot her in the head.
	Thandekulo killed Donnie Meyers, I killed Mike Meyers.

MR BOTMA: To get back to your version today, are you saying or just get it clear on that point, you were never aware before the time, that Mike Meyers, was according to information, a member of the AWB?

ZAMA THUTHA: First of all it was difficult for me to know that because I was not in Umtata, I was not staying in Umtata, I was along the Wild Coast.
	I just came for the operation, I did not know about matters concerning the Umtata region.
	I was going to hear or get all the information from the man that I was going to work with.  I don't know anything really beyond that.

MR BOTMA: So, all you knew was that you were supposed to go there, to go and get a truck and to also kidnap Mike Meyers?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not know that he was going to be kidnapped or what we were going to do when we got there.
	What I did know, was that we were going to get the truck.  We used to get trucks from comrades.  I did not know from whom we were going to get this truck, or how.
	There was not even an indication that would perhaps lead me or inform me as to what we were going to do.

MR BOTMA: Did you know that the truck belonged to a white man before the time?

ZAMA THUTHA: No.

MR BOTMA: So all you knew was that you were going to go there, to go and get a truck?  Did you know that you were supposed to rob the truck from the owner thereof?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not know anything.

MR BOTMA: When you saw Mike Meyers coming out of the vehicle, where were you?

ZAMA THUTHA: I was behind the truck.  Mike Meyers got out of the truck after the bullet sound.
	I first looked towards the left side where my co-accused was standing, and then I looked at the right side, and Mike Meyers was getting out of the truck.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, just to clarify this small thing again.  You looked to the left side where your co-accused was standing.  Earlier you said you didn't see him, just sort that one out for me please.

ZAMA THUTHA: I first looked on the left hand side, and realised that I could not see my co-accused where he had been standing, then I looked on the right hand side.  After realising that I could not see him, I thought maybe he is the one that had been shot.
	This then led me to take out my gun and shoot him, this white man because I could not see my comrade, but I had heard the bullet sound.

MR BOTMA: Where exactly where you when you heard the first shot?

ZAMA THUTHA: I was behind the truck.  I was watching the people that was selling milk at the back of the truck, I was looking at them.
	However, I was also trying to keep an eye on my co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know what your co-accused had gone forward to do?

ZAMA THUTHA: I knew that he was going in front.  I did not know what he was going to do.  I was just going to look to him, as to what was going to happen.

MR BOTMA: Did he not tell you that he was going to take care of the operation and that you must just stay behind to look after the people at the back?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: Before you heard the shot, could you from where you were standing, could you see your co-applicant?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I could see him at first, because whilst I was standing behind the truck, I would periodically go and peep on his side, then I would come back and look at the people, who were selling the milk.
	After the bullet sound, I was not able to see him, where he was standing.

MR BOTMA: From the time you arrived there at the truck, can you give this Commission an indication of how long did it take before you heard this first shot?

ZAMA THUTHA: I can't estimate, because this happened a long time ago.
	I can't count, however, I can't say it is, it is too long a time, it was just after a moment, after we had gotten to the truck.

MR BOTMA: You told us that when you heard the first shot, you peeped to the left hand side.  Did you mean that you were walking, you were going passed the side of the truck and looking what was going on on the left hand side?

ZAMA THUTHA: I wanted to look where my co-accused was as the bullet sound went.  I wanted to see what he was doing.

MR BOTMA: Did you go around the truck, that is the question?

ZAMA THUTHA: I was still behind and I just peeped at the corner, then I went to peep towards the right hand side.

MR BOTMA: What exactly did you see when you peeped to the right hand side?

ZAMA THUTHA: I saw Mike Meyers getting out of the truck in a hurry.  However, I saw that his right hand was behind him, still in the truck.

MR BOTMA: As you were looking towards Mike Meyers, which part of his body was turned towards you, his left hand side, right hand side, back or his front?

ZAMA THUTHA: As Mike Meyers was getting out of the truck, his front was faced towards me, the man was faced towards me.

MR BOTMA: So, are you saying he was getting out of the truck, with his face towards the back of the truck?

ZAMA THUTHA: It was as I was standing behind the truck or towards the back of the truck, he was facing me.  He was getting out of the truck, facing me, towards the back of the truck.

MR BOTMA: And what was he doing with his right hand exactly?

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't know, but I noticed that he was - it seemed as if he was trying to take something.

MR BOTMA: Was he bent towards the right hand side, in other words with his front towards the inside of the truck, to try to get something out of the truck or was he just still looking towards you, with his right hand, right arm stretched out towards the truck?

ZAMA THUTHA: It was stretched as if he was pulling something.  I noticed that it was, must have been heavy, whatever it is that he was pulling.  But he was standing properly and he was trying to pull something.

MR BOTMA: After you fired the shot, what did he do?

ZAMA THUTHA: After who had fired the shot?

MR BOTMA: You.

ZAMA THUTHA: I went to Mike Meyers to look around his waist to see if he had a gun.

MR BOTMA: Did you notice any injuries on him?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I saw the bullet wound just beneath the ribs.

MR BOTMA: Did you regard the wound as being serious at that stage?

ZAMA THUTHA: He was dressed, but I could see that where I had shot him, it would be very difficult for him to survive.

MR BOTMA: What do you mean by that?

ZAMA THUTHA: I mean that where the wound was, I was sure that he was not going to live.  Even the Doctor that tried to help him, the Doctor would get there, and he would have passed away already.

MR BOTMA: Were you concerned about his health or the fact that he was going to die at that point, or not?

ZAMA THUTHA: This white man?  Please repeat your question.

MR BOTMA: Were you concerned at that stage, when you looked at him, you saw the wound, were you concerned about his health or whether he is going to stay alive or is going to die?

ZAMA THUTHA: I was only worried about the information, that we were not going to get the information from him.  I was not worried or concerned about anything else, it was just the information that I was concerned with.

MR BOTMA: What information are you referring to now?

ZAMA THUTHA: I heard my co-accused talking to Thandekulo, they said they wanted something from this white man, information.
	Even though they were not talking to me, I overheard this.  I was concerned that this white man is dead, and we are not going to get the information.  I was not concerned about his death in that sense, I did not have a problem with him.

MR BOTMA: So you knew that he was supposed to be taken and to be questioned in order to get information from him, before you went to the truck?