Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR VISSER: We're indebted to you Mr Chairman.  The next witness Mr Chairman, which we will present is Mr Kopi.  This is spelt K-o-p-i and his christian names are Segopolo, which is spelt S-e-g-o-p-l-o Petrus Kopi, Mr Chairman.
	I may mention that you might remember that at a certain stage, due to various amendments and further applications coming in and the ...[indistinct] of documents, we informed you that there doesn't seem any point to file any further affidavits.  This is one of the witnesses that hasn't filed an affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Kopi, were you a policeman and are you still a policeman?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I'm still a policeman.

MR VISSER: What branch did you work at during the 1980's?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I arrived at 1984 at the security branch.

MR VISSER: You arrived you say?  Arrived in 1984?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I was transferred from Park Road police station to the security branch in 1984.

MR VISSER: And until what stage did you work for the security branch?  What date?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Even today I'm still working there in the security branch.

MR VISSER: Well, it's called something different now.  What is your rank?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Detective Sergeant.

MR VISSER: And what precisely - I'm sorry Mr Chairman. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still doing the introduction?  Carry on.

MR VISSER: What precisely was your job during 1985 and 1986?  What were you involved in?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think - what I was going to suggest is, if we're going to sit a little later than 4 o'clock, we should perhaps take a short adjournment for the convenience of everybody.  We'll take a five minute adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: Mr Kopi, just before the adjournment - my attorney just reminds me that it goes quicker if I perhaps ask my questions in English, it's one translation less Mr Chairman.
	Just before the adjournment you were asked what precisely your function was in the security branch during the years, approximately 1984 to 1986.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: My work was to investigate.

MR VISSER: So you were a detective at all times, is that what you're saying?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I started to be a detective in 1987 but before then I was just an ordinary policeman in the security branch.

MR VISSER: Do you know Mr Ngo?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us what you know of him and what your relationship was with him, your working relationship was with him?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I knew Mr Ngo at the security branch when he was recruited.  We used to meet at the passage because I was working on the investigation, he was working on the other section.

MR VISSER: And did you work with him at all?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: We know that Mr Ngo became a policeman on the 11th of March 1986.  After that date, did you work with him?  Did you execute any operations with him?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, there was no operation which I worked with him or I worked with him in a particular section.

MR VISSER: And Mr Motsamai, do you know him?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I know him very well.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us anything about your working relationship in the security branch, with Mr Motsamai?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: When I arrived in 1984, Mr Motsamai was working in the security branch, then I worked in the investigation section, then I learnt that he worked with the youth section under black section.

MR VISSER: Do you remember an incident which took place when a group of 19 comrades were arrested by the South African Defence Force in the Ladybrand area and became transferred to Bloemfontein?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I found those people in the office, then I learnt later that they were arrested in Ladybrand whilst they were trying to skip the country.

MR VISSER: Mr Kopi, did you have anything to do with these people?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes, they were those whom I talked with them.

MR VISSER: We'll get to them in a moment.   Did you in fact interrogate more than one of that group?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes, there were some I interrogated.  I think there were plus one or two.

MR VISSER: And when you interrogate a person, how many members of the security branch do you normally have in the office during the interrogation?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: When we interrogate a person, there will be the arrestee and myself.  I would work as an interpreter and then a white officer who would take notes of the things which are said by the arrestee.  It may happen that somebody would just come in and sit there without doing anything.

MR VISSER: I saw you frowning Mr Chairman, I think you frowned at the word: "white", "a white officer".

CHAIRPERSON: No, ...[inaudible] arrestee.  If the person's being interrogated ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: The arrestee?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  He might not necessarily have been arrested.

MR VISSER: Oh I see, yes, yes.  Well the detained person.
	You're talking about the person that you have to interrogate?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Can you remember - I know the date was the 6th of April 1986, we've no reason to doubt that, can you remember precisely whom you interrogated at that time?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: There was one lady whom I interrogated, then a certain person, then from there I had somewhat to do, then from there I left and continued with my work.

MR VISSER: Can you today, recall any of the names of the people that you interrogated at the time?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: It is difficult to remember.

MR VISSER: When the victims gave evidence, were you able to recall or identify any of those people as a person whom you identified - whom you interrogated?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Many people came whom I interrogated.  Even before this, the victims came.

CHAIRPERSON: You were being asked about the victims who have been giving evidence before us, the people, did you recognise any of them as somebody you had interrogated on this occasion?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: It may be possible that one of them was there but I've forgotten those things because they happened a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't recognise any?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, no-one.

MR VISSER: It has been suggested that you were one of the persons involved in the assault or torture of one or more of these people, of this group of people who we refer to, is that correct?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I didn't assault any person.

MR VISSER: Did you see anybody being assaulted at the time?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, I didn't see any person being assaulted.

MR VISSER: As far as you're concerned, did you commit any illegal or unlawful act regarding any of these people?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I didn't assault anybody and nobody complained to me that he has been assaulted.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
[End of Tape 4, Side A - no follow-on sound]

MR DU PLESSIS: ...[no sound] and after he had gone to Pretoria, did you ever have any contact with him thereafter?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I am going to indeed ask this person some questions.
	Mr Kopi, at the stage of the 6th of April 1986 when this group of 19 people arrived there, were you present in the office at around 9 o'clock/10 o'clock?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I found them at the office, I was called through a radio.

MR STANDER: When you arrived there, where did you find them?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I first went to the head of my section who is Mr du Plooy and he told me that there were people upstairs, we should go and see what we can get.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by upstairs?  What floor were you on?