Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR MAPOMA: No questions.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, Mr Singo, you may return to your seat.   Yes, Mr Madasa?
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I call the following applicant, No 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Norman Solly Mashinini?

UNKNOWN: No, I'm sorry, No 9, Solly Mashinini.

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr Mashinini, how old are you?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: 24.

UNKNOWN: How far did you go at school?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Five.

UNKNOWN: In 1993, did you live at Moleleki?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Yes, I arrived in Moleleki in January.

UNKNOWN: Were you working in December 1993?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: No.

UNKNOWN: In the SDU were you an ordinary patroller or an operator?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of the SDU?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Patrolling.   Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now, did you participate in the capturing of the victims that we are talking about?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: In which group were you?   Who was with you when you captured people?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Some did not apply, one with whom I was is Sonti.

UNKNOWN: Right.   Who did you capture?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: I don't know their names.

UNKNOWN: Did you participate in the capturing of all the victims?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Who told you ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute.   More than six people were kidnapped and put in a shack.   Do you understand that?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you telling us that you took part in the kidnapping of each and every victim who was kidnapped and put into a shack?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Were you told to do so, to capture these people and put them in the shack, and by whom?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Sugar gave us those instructions.

UNKNOWN: Do you know why those people were captured and put in the shack?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Sugar said or alleged that they killed Blanko and Bulelwa.

UNKNOWN: Were you armed when you captured them?   With what?   Were you armed with what?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: I was carrying a stick with a spear somewhere in between.

UNKNOWN: Were you present when they were taken to the open field?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: No.

UNKNOWN: At what stage did you leave?   Did you leave before they were taken away or when they were taken away?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: I left before they were taken to the veld.

UNKNOWN: Before you left, were they all there, those who were subsequently killed?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Yes, they were all there in the shack.

UNKNOWN: Who was there amongst them?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: I don't know their names.

UNKNOWN: Why did you leave and not go to the open field?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: I had a problem that I had reported to Comrade Dondolo and Comrade Kenny, a domestic problem, and they therefore released me.

UNKNOWN: What was your objective of capturing those people?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: It is because they had killed Blanko and Bulelwa.

UNKNOWN: When you participated, did you do so as - oh, okay.   Sorry, Mr Chair, I withdraw that question.   Was your act of capturing those people related with your work in the SDU, to protect the community?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: How?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: We were trying to protect the community.

UNKNOWN: How was the community going to be protected by capturing those people?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: The community would be protected because they had suffered a great deal of loss during their presence.

UNKNOWN: Did you benefit anything personally from capturing those people?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: No.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Just one question, you say, "The community would be protected because they suffered a great deal of loss during their presence".   Does that mean that you knew that they would be killed, did you know that they would be killed?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Would you please repeat the question?

MR MALAN: Sorry, you gave evidence that, "The community would be protected because the community suffered a great deal of loss during their presence", I think these were your exact words, as translated.   Does that mean that you, at the time, knew that they would be removed from the community, that they would be killed?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: No, I did not know.

MR MALAN: How would you contract then their presence with what I assume is their absence?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR MALAN: Let me repeat the original question.   How would the community have been protected by these acts?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: The community would be protected.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us how?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Would you please repeat?

MR MALAN: Why would the community have been protected by your capturing these people?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: The community would be protected because they would no longer be there.

MR MALAN: Where would they have been?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: Because they were killed.

MR MALAN: Was this part of your objective?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: No.

MR MALAN: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard of a certain Mr Mashinini who at some point chaired a meeting.   Did you chair any meeting of the SDU's?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: I don't understand?

CHAIRPERSON: The Mashinini about whom we spoke, we speak, it is alleged he once chaired a meeting.   Is there any other Mashinini who was a member of the SDU apart from yourself?

NORMAN SOLLY MASHININI: No, it looks like I'm the only Mashinini.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Mr Chair, that Mashinini, Oscar Motlokwa referred to, he said he was a community member.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.   Okay, so this is not, this is not Mashinini now, (indistinct).   Is there anything arising?

UNKNOWN: Nothing, Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MADASA
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Thank you, Mr Mashinini, you may go back to your seat.   Yes, Mr Madasa?
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I call Patrick Lefu Mokoena, No 10.

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr Mokoena, how old are you?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I am 25 years old.

UNKNOWN: How far did you go at school?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I did standard seven.

UNKNOWN: In 1993, in December, were you working?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I was not working.

UNKNOWN: Schooling?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: No, I left school.

UNKNOWN: Did you live in Moleleki in December '93?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Yes, I stayed in Moleleki.

UNKNOWN: Where?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Moleleki, Extension 2, Block A.

UNKNOWN: In the SDU, were you an operator or an ordinary member?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: I was a patrolling member.

UNKNOWN: During the killings that time, did you participate in capturing anybody?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Yes, I took part.

UNKNOWN: Whom did you capture?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: On the night of that same day, I went to bed, I woke up in the morning and I met, I went to Mr Blanko's house.   When we arrived at Blanko's place, the shack had already been burnt.

UNKNOWN: Did you meet with other SDU members at Blanko's place?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: Yes, I met them, sir, but some had already left to look for the perpetrators.   Then I passed on to block F and I discovered that Bulelwa had been shot and then she was already dead.

UNKNOWN: After you had discovered Bulelwa's death, did you help in getting people who were involved?

LEFU PATRICK MOKOENA: We guarded Bulelwa's body, waiting for the Red Cross car, two boys approached, they were brought to us.

UNKNOWN: Do you know the names of those boys?