Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, this might be a convenient stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ETIENNE J LE ROUX: (s.u.o.)

MR LANDMAN: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now Mr le Roux, we're going to continue with Mr Rundle for a while.  Now who was the leadership, can you tell us who was part of the leadership of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I can completely understand what's he's asking me in English, may I leave them off?

CHAIRPERSON: The choice is yours.

MR LE ROUX: Thank you.
	My view of the AWB was that there's is a leader with his Staff Generals.  There are certain groups coming from this point.  Mr Rundle usually made press releases but I do not know where he got the information from and I did not know who liaised.  I cannot answer that.

MR LANDMAN: Could you tell the Committee what was the: Executive Council, what was that?

MR LE ROUX: I understood it as if someone manages or he takes certain decisions, he can do it on his own decision, he doesn't have to answer to anybody else.

MR LANDMAN: So I want to suggest to you Mr le Roux that we know that the Executive Council would be the ultimate decision making body in the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: No, I do not agree there, I'd say that the Staff Generals were.

MR LANDMAN: Do you recall that Mr Rundle gave evidence at your trial in mitigation of sentence?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I hear what you say but I cannot remember it, no.

MR LANDMAN: I want to put it to you that Mr Prinsloo who is sitting next to me called him as a witness to testify in mitigation at that trial.

MR LE ROUX: That is possible.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I'd just like to place it on record that at that stage Mr le Roux was not present so he has no knowledge of this.

MR LANDMAN: Why were you not present Mr le Roux?

MR LE ROUX: I think I was still running away from the police at that stage.

MR LANDMAN: Well I want to put to you something that Mr Rundle said at that time and ask whether you agree or disagree with what he said.  This is now at page 5 of bundle A, from approximately line 23.  He is asked by the Prosecutor.

CHAIRPERSON: Which page?

MR LANDMAN: Page 5, and you'll see that there's a (20), just below that
"How would the planting of bombs and the killing of innocent people help to counter this feeling of fear"?
And Mr Rundle then replied and said:
"The planting of bombs was never an instruction that was given by the leader.  He was never part of such a decision.  I would like to make it very clear, in the Executive Council, with all honesty, it was never discussed or in any council in which I served"

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, can I can put it to in this way:  There was a Court case, I do not believe that there was anything said that conveyed the essence of the AWB's decisions.  They would denied it.  I think when the last bomb exploded and the election did continue in an orderly fashion, then they would have been brought into receiving different insights.  Like I mentioned earlier on, there were resistance movements all over the world who denied things like this.

MR LANDMAN: So implicit in your statement is that Mr Rundle lied under oath in the High Court, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot answer to that Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Well when he says that
"The planting of bombs was never an instruction given by the leaders"
Do you agree or disagree with him?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know, I wasn't there.

MR MALAN: I would just like to ask you, does that not correspond with the applicant's idea was that the decision was taken by the Staff Generals, is that also not a possibility?

MR LANDMAN: At this stage I can't say anymore than to say that most things are possible, but certainly when Mr Rundle says in his evidence that wasn't a decision taken by the leadership, certainly on that level there seems to be no question that that wasn't the case.

MR MALAN: That is not correct.  What you quoted was that such a decision was not taken by the Executive Council.  Do you have other evidence saying that it was any of the other leaders or someone from the leadership, but this refers to the Executive Council.

MR LANDMAN: I'm aware that that is in fact the case.  The point is that Mr Rundle talks about the leadership, that's the only point I make.
	Mr le Roux, did the Staff Generals at any stage produce a statement in which they admitted that they were responsible for the bombings?

MR LE ROUX: I do not believe so, I carry no knowledge regarding that.

MR LANDMAN: Do I understand you correctly that it was after the elections actually took place that the AWB leadership would then have decided it's no use admitting that they were responsible for the bombings, for whatever reason?

MR LE ROUX: Regarding the previous question I would just like to say that at that stage I didn't have the information and I also did not receive any news, so I cannot react regarding any matter concerning this.  I would say that the AWB would have denied it at that stage.

MR LANDMAN: What do you say was the purpose of the Bree Street bombing?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard told me that these bombings should be the beginning of the terror.

MR LANDMAN: But did Barnard tell you why a bomb should go off on Sunday?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, he did.

MR LANDMAN: What did he say?

MR LE ROUX: He told me that because of the fact that if a bomb explodes during the week in Johannesburg, more people would be killed and thus he said that they decided on exploding or detonating the bomb on the Sunday.

MR LANDMAN: Did Mr Barnard tell you why there should be any bombs going off on Sunday, what the purpose of the bomb was?

MR LE ROUX: No, he only explained that point that I mentioned, and that was regarding the fact that on the Sunday there would be less people killed because there wasn't that many people around.

MR LANDMAN: How many people did you hope to kill that Sunday?

MR LE ROUX: I was part of a team and we saw it as that and I did not know how many people would die.  I thought that the area that we targeted was more an office area and also a sort of a bad neighbourhood.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by: "bad neighbourhood"?

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?

MR LE ROUX: That it was an office area?

CHAIRPERSON: No, "bad neighbourhood".

MR LE ROUX: I knew that in that area from my experience because I drove past there quite often, there were many escort agencies etc., and that was one of the ways in which I saw it.  I think in the Court case it was said that nine escort agencies were damaged.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason Bree Street was chosen, because of these escort agencies?

MR LE ROUX: No, not as such Mr Chairperson but it was one of the reasons.  ...(tape ends)
   ...[inaudible] you get good areas and good areas, that according to me is how it is.

CHAIRPERSON: As I remember your evidence, you said that the idea of the Carlton Centre, you didn't want to explode the bomb there because there were people around in the area?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that was one of the reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: And you wanted this bomb to explode in a densely built area?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is why you decided on Bree Street?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say that Bree Street was chosen because in your words it was a bad area, now what is the position or your position?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, to plant a bomb and you have to talk about it then you talk about these things and that is how I felt at that stage, in that it was not a neighbourhood that was highly acclaimed but the buildings was one of the biggest factors.

CHAIRPERSON: In the light of the buildings, was that a good area or in the light of the agencies, was it a bad area?  How does it work?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, that area I drove through very often with the work I did and I knew it was an area which was densely packed and that is what it was all about.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?