Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I do not know their names.

MR KADES: Yes, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Anyone else?  Yes.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Cebekhulu, yesterday were you in the room when I cross-examined John Morgan, the driver, about his version of seeing Stompie's body outside the window?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I was sitting right there behind the attorneys.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: And you heard me put Mr Richardson's version to Mr Morgan, correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I think I recall that.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: So there's no need for me to report that it's in total conflict with the version that you have put before the Commission today.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I don't know what I am supposed to do in order for you to believe that what I am saying is true.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: Either Mr Richardson's instructions are still incorrect, or are incorrect, or you are incorrect and you say Mr Richardson is incorrect?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I could say that he's mistaken.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: Now when we go to the Lolo Sono incident Mr Richardson's house was shot up, blown up on the 9th of November of that year, do you dispute that date or do you have any reason to?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I wouldn't dispute the date, I am not sure.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: How could you be that precise, how many days or days later did you see Mr Nicodemus Sono while Lolo Sono was in the car with you?  Was it one, two, three or more?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I think it was weeks, probably two weeks if I am not mistaken.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: Now two weeks is a maximum of 14 days, is that your evidence?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I think so, but I cannot say for sure it was 14 days, approximately.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: Now did you hear Mr Nicodemus Sono's evidence?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I did.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: Do you dispute that he says that that incident took place, according to my notes, on the 13, 14th of that November?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I wouldn't dispute that, it is possible, I just don't remember the date, so I wouldn't dispute the dates on any basis.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: I do not have these, I believe it's in one of the leverarch files that I will be given, but those dates correspond with the CR number at the Meadowlands Police Station where Mr Nicodemus Sono reported the missing state of his son.
 Now I put it to you that you could not have seen Mr Richardson in the car that day because he was in jail, he was arrested on the 9th and only released on the 25th, what do you say?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I do not remember.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: Was Mr Richardson in the vehicle with Lolo Sono?  I put it to you he could not have been.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: (no translated reply)
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: Are you certain that Mr Richardson was in the vehicle?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I could say that I am sure.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: I will leave it there.  Now we go back to the incident of the stabbing or alleged stabbing of Stompie Seipei by Mrs Mandela.  Now from your vantage point how far away was the scene being enacted before you, was it one metre, ten metres, 30 metres?  Indicate across the room.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I was standing where I am pointing and this incident took place where I am pointing.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: .... you indicate the nearest blue fan is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No, I think it's from the table to the end of what I am pointing.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: What are you pointing at, I am a bit lost?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Could I just show you the distance?  I was there where I pointed at first and this took place or occurred where I am at the moment.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: (...indistinct).

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It's where I am pointing, yes where I am standing is where I was standing then and where I am pointing is where the incident took place, that is the distance between me and this particular scene.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: I think there is consensus that it was about two or three metres......
 Now from that distance could you see the person doing the stabbing was male or female?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I was able to see that it was a woman.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: What was the male at the scene doing?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: The male had put a person where I am pointing and the woman was doing as I am demonstrating, then thereafter I went into the house to sleep.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: ....demonstration, was the male holding down the victim or standing.....?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes the male was holding down the victim, that is the youngster next to the jacuzzi.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: And was she standing, kneeling, sitting?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: She wasn't sitting down, but she was bending as I am indicating or demonstrating.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: And the male what was he doing?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: The male was holding down the youngster.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: What time did you wake up the next morning?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I woke up very early in the morning.  The rest of the people had been up already by then, but I was the first one to wake up.  I went into the other boys houses and I went past the jacuzzi as I am indicating in the diagram, I couldn't see anything really visible but I saw some droplets of blood and I went into the other rooms.  I asked as to where Stompie was. I was told that he wasn't there.
MR .......?

<UNKNOWN>: I don't have any further questions, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Is there anyone else?

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman if I may ask a few questions.  Mr Cebekhulu I act for the Sono families and the Chili families.  I know you have been answering questions for a very long time but I do need to clear up one or two matters with you in respect of Lolo Sono.
 On the 12th or 13th of November 1988 was there an instruction given by Mrs Mandela that Lolo Sono was to be brought to her?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR RICHARD: Your affidavit at paragraph 9 says that that was the case.  You say
"I heard Mrs Mandela tell Jerry Richardson to go out and find someone named Lolo Sono and bring him back to the house".
that's what you've said in your affidavit, is that not correct?  Think carefully Mr Cebekhulu.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I think I have talked a lot for one day. Just give me some time to try and rethink.

MR RICHARD: ....to assist you could I refer you to your affidavit which was the affidavit of - it's the second affidavit and it's paragraph 9 of that affidavit.  Take your time and just read paragraph 9 if you would.

UNKNOWN: It would help to give the page number and the paragraph number again please?

MR RICHARD: Mr Cebekhulu it's page 2 paragraph 9.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do remember.

MR RICHARD: You now do recall that an instruction was given by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to pick up Lolo Sono and bring him back to the house.  That's something you recall?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do remember.

MR RICHARD: Now you go on to say in this affidavit that thereafter you found a boy who was being assaulted in the house and that this was a boy that you knew to be Lolo Sono and you assumed that to be the case because of the instruction that had been given.  So did you observe a boy being assaulted by, amongst others, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do remember.

MR RICHARD: Now was that the boy who was then taken to the house of Mr Sono, Nicodemus Sono?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is the same boy.

MR RICHARD: Now it's been suggested to you that perhaps Mr Richardson was not there but you do recall, do you, that Mrs Mandela was the person who assaulted Lolo Sono, is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now can I just ask you briefly about the occupants of the vehicle that took you to the house of the Sono's, do you recall whether there was a driver called Michael Siyakamela, is that name familiar to you?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I don't remember anything.