Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR PRINSLOO: When did you - for the first time, become aware that Mr Mandela's name was linked to this particular trial of Mr Hani?

THERESA BEYERS: ...[inaudible]

MR PRINSLOO: Just a moment please Mr Chairman, just one second please.  Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you wish to
put to this witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...[inaudible]
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If I may ask, I assume your husband was driving?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes, that's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And I would assume that you were sitting next to him, at the time when the traffic light was red and both vehicles were stationery, were you behind the bakkie?

THERESA BEYERS: No, we were next to the bakkie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Which side?

THERESA BEYERS: We were going onto the motor-way and the bakkie was in the middle lane, so were turning right onto the motor-way and the bakkie was going up towards Glenhove.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm not sure I have the picture, but on which side would the bakkie be - on which side?

THERESA BEYERS: On my left.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I see.  And how close were you to - was there another lane - empty lane in-between the two vehicles?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was there another vehicle in-between the two vehicles?

THERESA BEYERS: No.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you .

JUDGE WILSON: I'm not quite sure if I understand you, you've just said there was an empty lane between you but I thought you said before that you were in the turning right lane and he was in the centre lane?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes, when I say there was an empty lane - there was nothing in-between, we were going right onto the motor-way and he was in the ...[inaudible]

JUDGE WILSON: Was he in the lane next to you?

THERESA BEYERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

GEORGE BIZOS: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Thanks very much.

GEORGE BIZOS: May the ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, she's excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, we have another witness ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please!  Yes, Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] yesterday Mr Chairman, the witness hasn't arrived yet but he did telephone this morning Mr Chairman, to say that he would be late because he wanted to see his counsel in Johannesburg and we said that we would be waiting for him - he isn't here ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can we not proceed with any of your other witnesses?

GEORGE BIZOS: There is one other witness here with whom I have not consulted and I don't particularly want to consult with her but we can possibly take up the time because I - it's Mrs du Randt, Mr Chairman and I want to make it clear that she's not our witness in a sense but there are certain questions that we want to put to her for the record.  And I would ask you to call her at this stage Mr Chairman, she has been in court for some time.

CHAIRPERSON: No, what am I to call her for?

GEORGE BIZOS: We're going to call her about the delivery of the gun and more particularly the date on which the gun was delivered Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mrs du Randt - will she come forward, is she here?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you prepared to take the oath?

MRS DU RANDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: She's Afrikaans speaking Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MRS DU RANDT: (sworn states)

GEORGE BIZOS: Mrs du Randt, you have given evidence before the Judge President in the case in which Mr Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus and Mrs Derby-Lewis were the accused, can you remember this?

MRS DU RANDT: Yes, that's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Will you please speak a bit more loudly, the members of the Committee, the applicants and their counsellors - legal counsel, would like to hear what you are saying.
	You and your husband, did you deliver a pistol at the home of Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis?

MRS DU RANDT: Yes, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You made a statement - didn't you, which was in the possession of the Attorney General and you testified on page ...[inaudible] that the date on which you and your husband went to the house, was the 24th of February 1993?

MRS DU RANDT: The 24th of February '93 was the meeting of the City Council, so it was the 25th that we went to his house.

GEORGE BIZOS: What did you and your husband deliver there on the 25th of February?

MRS DU RANDT: It was a parcel - an OK parcel, in which I had a jersey with some mail and I gave it to Mr Clive Derby-Lewis personally in his hands.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was in the jersey?

MRS DU RANDT: Well, after I had peeped in there, I saw that is was a gun or a pistol or whatever they call it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Will you please describe the pistol?

MRS DU RANDT: What I had seen in the box at the police, there was something that was in the front of the drawer and I saw that it was a gun or a revolver or whatever they call it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, what did the jersey have to do with the firearm which you saw or that you handed over on the 25th of February?

MRS DU RANDT: Sorry, I don't understand you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why was the jersey there?

MRS DU RANDT: Well, it was the afternoon when my husband went through to the City Council meeting when a certain Mr Venter came to my house, he asked me whether Mr Durandt was there and I told him: "No, he had been in a meeting for two hours".
	He said that he had a jersey to deliver to Mr Clive and I said to him: "You may give it to me, my husband isn't here" but I invited him into the house and I twice phoned Mr Derby's house, there was no reply but I knew they were also in the meeting and then he came into the kitchen with me after we had phoned but as I'd said there was no reply.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any reason why the firearm was in the jersey?

MRS DU RANDT: At that stage I didn't know that it was a revolver or a gun in the jersey but when he walked over to his car and he had said to me had driven up and down five times but that he couldn't find my house number, then he came and knocked at the door and I told him that it is 022 and I asked him who he was looking for and he said he was looking for Mr Durandt, I told him he wasn't there because he was in a meeting, then he returned to his car and he told me that he had a jersey to deliver to Clive and them or for Clive and them ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: Sorry, have you finished?

MRS DU RANDT: And then he walked to his car and opened the boot at the back and he took out this leather bag and I thought to myself: "A jersey"?, it was a men's jersey.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any reason given to you why the firearm was not delivered directly to Mr Derby-Lewis and why it was taken to your husband?

MRS DU RANDT: Well, as I said to you, I knew that Clive and Gay were also in the City Council meeting and I phoned there twice but there was no reply, the phone just rang.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was any reason given to you why the firearm was not delivered directly to Mr Derby-Lewis?

MRS DU RANDT: No, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you discover that it was a firearm that had been handed over to you?