Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was specified.  There was for instance an approach in a region that was followed that high level hotels could not be used, you have to get three quotes and if the average amount of money that would then be kept on the files of the hotels is R400 per evening then he could take the R400 and he could go and sleep in a park for instance but that was then written off beforehand.

MR HOCKEY: You say they that they were not allowed to use top hotels but in the documents that's part of the record there are indications that meetings were held in rooms of the Cape Sun Hotel?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that is the case.  It could possibly be like that, if the profile of the project and you are a business man you can go and stay in a palace if you have the budget for it but for the average place of residence in hotels and I mean you they can laugh about it in the peanut gallery but I want to say to you like this that it could be put in the next way.  Please go and read the financial plan because everything that you're asking now can be found there.

MR HOCKEY: Mr Verster, Mr Williams pointed out to you and there's a lot of evidence to this effect that your information and your intelligence concerning the Kewtown Youth Movement was wrong, I can also point out to you that according to your operatives and I'm not sure if this information was given to you, I suppose it was, according to your operatives, Mr Chris Ferndale was a well known community leader in Kewtown and was also part of the Kewtown Youth Movement, was detained before.  Now I can tell you this and you can verify it with the security police or with other structures that this was never the case, I can also tell you that Mr Osmond Alexander was also never detained under any security legislation, he was however taken in for questioning for a very short while but he was never detained.  Now that information which was obtained by your operatives was wrong, I can categorically state that and we can call evidence to that effect.  Have you got any comment on that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have no comment, this is something that has to be confirmed.

MR HOCKEY: Mr Williams pointed out various inaccuracies in your intelligence, for example Colleen Williams was not related to him.  Their organisation Kewtown Youth Movement ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you say that Colleen Williams was not related to who?

MR HOCKEY: To Mr Williams, Peter Williams.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't it appear as being a half sister?

MR HOCKEY: That's exactly it, Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLIAMS: I disputed that Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: It's not the case.  The Kewtown Youth Movement was never involved in any bombings or acts of terror as you call it.
	Now I'm going to ask you, if these facts are correct, the fact that Kewtown Youth Movement was never involved with any bombings, if the two people that died during the bombing incident at the Athlone Magistrate's Court were not members of Kewtown Youth Movement, if that is in fact the case then I ask you to accept this as correct for now.  Various other information that was at your disposal and that you say was checked and became intelligence is in fact wrong, will you agree that the bombing of the Athlone Early Learning Centre was senseless, it was a senseless act by the CCB.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, if it can't be twisted and if it is once again tonight on the SABC news then I would agree with what is said here.  It would be wrong if that was the case but this is speculation but due to the nature of things this would be completely wrong.

MR HOCKEY: Members of the Kewtown Youth Movement gangsters, now some of them are here today - I just want to while some of the Kewtown Youth Movement and of the Cape Youth Congress of which they were affiliated, they're sitting here, if I can just ask them to stand up?  These were all members, Mr Verster, of the Kewtown Youth Movement and in fact of the Cape Youth Congress.  Do they appear to you as gangsters?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Do you expect an answer?

MR HOCKEY: I do expect an answer.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know what I have to tell you.

MR HOCKEY: Are they gangsters?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not at first sight but that is no norm.  I have nothing to say on this because I realise what the political connotation is that will be attached to this.

MR HOCKEY: The person there in the brown jacket, is Mr Osmond Alexander.  He was a student, a university student at the time, in science.  Today he is in a managerial position at a top company in the Western Cape.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I accept that.

MR HOCKEY: ...(inaudible) was an administrator at the time, I see today he works for the National Monuments Council, also a person involved in administration.
	Mr Chris Ferndale at the back was a social worker, he is still a registered social worker, he works today, he works for the City Council as a Community Liaison Officer.  At the time of the incident he was a social worker and his area of particular interest was the Kewtown community. 
	 Ms Nazeema Mohammed there, was a teacher, sorry, she was a researcher at UCT, she was in fact a medicationalist and she is today employed by the National Education Department as a director.  She's got a masters degree in education, in fact.  	Ms Miranda Abrahams, was in fact employed as a pre-school teacher at the Early Learning Centre where this bombing took place and she's today working for a trade union, she's a National Party - I beg your pardon, she's a representative of the Nehawu at the National Assembly.
	Mr Kimar Omar is the son of Mr Omar and so is Mr Rushim Omar standing there, they were both members of the Cape Youth Congress, they were also if I'm not wrong members or rather students at the time, teachers at the time and Ms Fatima Omar is also related to the Omars, she was an educationalist of pre-school children, she's still employed in that capacity as a principal of a pre-school. 
	Now these are the people, Mr Verster, that your operatives call gangsters.  Now if I'm telling you that the information on which you acted on was wrong and if you're prepared to accept that, are you prepared to apologise to them?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I will not be drawn into something like this, it's not my intention to do anything like that, I will qualify it by saying that I accept that it may be incorrect that these persons appearances are acceptable and if we refer to qualifications we will refer to Mr Dullah Omar, what he was involved with.  If we look at any of the other members of the top structures in control of the country, this has no connection with whatsoever qualification they might have.

MR HOCKEY: Can you answer my question?  Are you prepared to apologise to these people?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I shall not let myself be intimidated into something like that, it would be incorrect if innocent persons, if anyone is sorry I do not intend to do something like this.  The attitude in this Commission was just to, from the time Mr Bizos spoke up till now, was to put forward one side of this case.  In terms of the law I'm prepared to come here.  Where are the 37 members of the ANC who were supposed to be here?

MR HOCKEY: We are not talking about the ANC here, I asked you a simple question.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It's hypothetical, I've already answered it.

CHAIRPERSON: You can stop fighting, please you can sit down, thank you.

MR HOCKEY: Have you come to terms with the change that took place in South Africa, Mr Verster?