Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

ADRIAAN VLOK: Let me say immediately we often heard of this, often heard allegations in this regard relating to this type of conduct, people had been tortured, those allegations were made daily in the courts, daily in criminal cases these allegations were made where people charged with a certain offence said I was tortured to actually extract this confession from me, but the system worked in such a way that in those specific cases the court dealt with it there and then.  So I just want to say that we heard it, we weren't deaf, we actually heard those allegations and I was worried at the time when I was there, but what did we do about it?  In each case we requested a report. We wanted to know what the exact facts were and I answered questions in Parliament.  But once again we received the report from the department because let us not forget that these allegations made were made primarily by people from a certain quarter and we saw them as the opposition.  We actually still referred to them as the enemy in those days, the enemy was saying this, that and the other.
 And yesterday I told you that we were inundated with propaganda from those quarters and we said here's something which doesn't look quite right, let us investigate it internally and a report would be drafted in the department and it would be conveyed back to me, to the Minister.  I would have a look at it, and I talked about it often in Parliament.  My former colleague often attacked us on this, he would often say that he had certain information and he believed that it was correct.  
 I want to say that this information which has been revealed, and I am glad you said that it was untested, this information may be true but it's very disturbing to me that it actually happened, that it possibly happened.  These things are now being revealed, things which we never knew about, but at that stage we heard these allegations, we were concerned about it and we requested reports on it and we received reports on these matters.  Inquests were held in cases where people died and we also received those inquest reports.   So it wasn't as if we just left the matters, we actually dealt with them, we tried to deal with it.  I admitted yesterday that I don't think we did enough in those days to actually see to it that those things don't happen.   
 And I want to add I was involved in certain occasions when two former commissioners of police actually spoke to people, and this is now General Johan Coetzee and Johan van der Merwe, both of those emphasised the fact that allegations and rumours were made public that we were assaulting people and torturing people and they told them directly that is not on, it mustn't happen, because it's unnecessary.  Operate within the law.  And I can testify to being present when two of them on different occasions said that those allegations are being made and that is not acceptable to us.  Now these things happened on the ground and once again I am saying how was that to be conveyed to me?  It could only have been conveyed to me by these two commissioners.  Nobody else told me from those quarters, it came from different quarters as well as I said to Mr Lax yesterday, but those people, the last mentioned group, we actually regarded as the enemy and we didn't really listen to them.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson just a - thank you very much.  A couple of comments.  One, I referred to the testimonies before the Commission from victim/survivors as untested allegations, I think it's very different when people actually come and acknowledge and stand under oath and say I did this.  So the one may well be corroborating the other, not in every instance I accept.   But the other comment is, what seems to have been happening then, that despite many voices whom you assumed was just being propagandistic or being anti-government or enemies or whatever, despite that, actions were taken, looked at and one can only conclude that at the very highest level and right down the line people were lying to you because clearly now they are coming to say they did do this, not we are saying it, not the Commission, not even the victims, the people themselves describe as you have read in the newspapers and watched on television, heard on radio, in graphic terms of the most horrendous torture and killings.  Now that was going on then, it wasn't going on now.  So the only explanation I can draw from what you have said to me now and to the Commission is that all these people who were responsible and who now admit that were lying to you.

ADRIAAN VLOK: That is correct.  The group of people who were involved in this kind of thing, you must remember we need to have the right perspective, they didn't inform me about it.  It's as simple as that.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to let him miss out but just hold on to your line.  Dumisa you had one - are you letting us pass.  Let us pass.  Wynand.

MR MALAN: It's extremely important for me that we should find an explanation somewhere as to how these things happened.  Now let us assume, and I am not saying that we are going to make a finding on it, but let's just assume that you never received a report on your desk which said we did this and that, that you never received that, but you heard many, received many complaints, allegations and charges all of which indicated that a certain thing had been done.  You know that the public perception of people, even if it was amongst the opposition or the enemy, was such that many questions were asked about the security forces and management of security forces, I am talking about National Intelligence, Military Intelligence, Security Police, because the fingers pointed to those quarters, you are saying there were no commissions of inquiry, you asked for reports and you received reports.
 Now in the light of that background would it be unreasonable to say that in those days and under that government, I am specifically referring to Mr P W Botha's government, that there was an atmosphere and a culture of - or perhaps I can illustrate it best with a quote, one of your former colleagues made it during an interview, he said -
"P W created an atmosphere within which he showed little concern about the activities of the security forces and he certainly expected no-one in Cabinet to do so".
I am giving you this quote, but my question is actually this - is it not true that it was actually an untouchable element?  We don't touch it, we don't investigate it, these are professional people who know what they are doing and they are responsible for safety and security, wasn't there a culture like that which applied in those days?  This is a scenario which I am drawing up from information and experience of those times.  I'd like your comment.

ADRIAAN VLOK: Chairperson I hear what Commissioner Malan said about this possibility, and I must say quite honestly that during my time in Cabinet I can't say in all honesty that we were untouchable, at no stage.

MR MALAN: I am sorry that is not my allegation.  Forget about the word untouchable, but the expectation was that there would be no interference by politicians in the work of the security forces, that is actually the charge.