Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: According to my knowledge Phila Pawa was still around in the house.  They shared the same responsibility, him and Comrade Dolo.  He used to conduct political classes.  Sometimes he will be around in the house, sometimes absent.  He wasn't with us all the time like Comrade Dolo.  Comrade Dolo was always present.  They would exchange their roles.

MR SIBANYONI: ...(inaudible) under, to whom were you accounting or reporting?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I was accountable to both of them because they were sharing the same responsibilities.  But during operations I would account to Comrade Phila Dolo.  I would report to him after operations.

MR SIBANYONI: Then did you personally have any position or rank in the unit?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No I was an ordinary soldier.

MR SIBANYONI: Just a coincidence that they chose you to go and give a signal.  Was it not any position of prominence that you were playing in the unit?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No it just happened that they pointed me out and I took the order as it came to me.  It's not that I was occupying a certain rank.  It just happened.

MR SIBANYONI: You told the Committee that you were not aware of the details of the operation until you arrived at the scene.  Did I understand you correctly?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR SIBANYONI: Only at the scene that you were then told you were going to attack cars whose occupants were white?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, we were only told of the nature of the operation when we arrived at the scene and we were also briefed on further details.

MR SIBANYONI: What would have happened to you if you refused to carry out that instruction?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I couldn't refuse that.  I couldn't defy the order.  I took the order as it was and I was also willing to carry out the order.  Personally I had prepared myself for the  attack.  So there was no way that I could refuse the order.

MR SIBANYONI: In you affidavit did you say that you are 24 years of age.  Were you born in 1974?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It is so.

MR SIBANYONI: So in 1992 you were 18 years of age?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR SIBANYONI: The daughter to Mr Tsemane, the late Mr Tsemane, is putting to you that this thing has got, had nothing to do with any political objective.  In other words you were not motivated by any political considerations or carrying any policy decisions of the PAC, but you were targeting specific people there.  What is your, I mean response to that?

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Sibanyoni, she didn't say that.  She in fact said that they were being used by people with a different agenda.  Sorry, if I could just say that.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you for putting it that way.  The daughter says there were people belonging to clubs and then they used you for their own motives.  What is your response to that?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It is not so.

MR SIBANYONI: In your affidavit I see you have quoted the founding president of the PAC, Robert Sebukwe.  Thank you, thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Page 7 of the new bundle, paragraph 5 you are quoting the founding president of the PAC, Robert Sebukwe.  But the quote goes as far as the end of paragraph 5.  My question to you, is paragraph 6 your own words, or was it supposed to be the continuation of the quotation?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It continues.  The quotation continues.

MR SIBANYONI: So the whole of paragraph 6 is also part of what Robert Sebukwe said?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR SIBANYONI: In your own words, what did you hope to achieve by killing these people which were killed on the 19th of November?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I wanted to achieve was to make the then government aware that we are now in a war.  We were in a war to kill whites so that we can return the country to the, to its people.  We wanted to show the then apartheid government that we were engaged in a war with them.

MR SIBANYONI: This Committee was shown two pictures, two photos.  In the photo there was Mr Schroeder and then in that picture he looks more, I means he looks dark.  He doesn't look more white.  In fact I would say he looks darker than myself.  What is you comment about that?  In other words my question is best to say it was not possible for you to make a mistake, to mistake him for a white person.  What do you say about that?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Who is he on these two photos?

MR SIBANYONI: He is standing on the extreme left on the picture shown to you.  My question is that it was not possible to mistake him for a white person.  He clearly looks not white.  What is your response?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I can say is that as he was amongst white and his skin colour was a bit clear and as I have said that it was in the morning and misty.  One couldn't right away realise that that person was a Coloured because the car was moving by then.  It was not standing still.  Maybe if the car was not, was motionless, we could have been able to see whether he was a Coloured or a white person.   And if you can look at this picture you can see that this person's skin is clear.  He is a, he's white.  So one can't tell the difference between the person and a white person when this person is in a misty surrounding.

MR SIBANYONI: ...(inaudible) amongst white, which whites are you referring to?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I thought the people in that bakkie were all white.

MR SIBANYONI: Did Mrs Brummer look the same as Mr Schroeder?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, because they are both white.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to clear up a few matters.  Let's clear up the first one.  You said one of the problems, as I  understand your evidence, in seeing Mr Schroeder was that it was in misty surroundings in the morning.  Is that so?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So was it early in the morning?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I can't remember exactly what time it was, but if I can estimate, it was about something past seven.  I can't remember exactly what the time was, but because it was misty, it looked as if it was very early in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: It is usually misty in the morning in that part of the world.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It was winter by then.  By the time we went there carrying out attacks, on that day it was misty, but on other days there was no mist.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid I have some difficulty in accepting that November was winter.  You agree it is not winter, it's well into summer?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I am trying to explain is that by then it was not really winter, but on that day it was cold.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) there was no mist in the morning.  I mean you could see clearly, couldn't you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Maybe if I was a Commander, I could have thought about that, but because I was not a Commander I couldn't give instructions on what to do.  I'll wait for the weather to clear up.

CHAIRPERSON: And, as you have told us, it was early in the morning, just some time after seven.  Most of the people travelling to Sterkspruit at that time of day would have been workers, wouldn't they?  People going to work in Sterkspruit?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I didn't know whether those people were going to Sterkspruit, or driving past.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is the time of day when people go to work, isn't it?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: See, that's what's been suggested, is that you were targeting workers for some purpose.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, we were not targeting workers.  We were targeting white people because on that day we were supposed to attack whites, not caring whether they work.  But the whole thing is that we were going attack whites.

CHAIRPERSON: And you then, on a previous occasion you've told us, attacked some other person on that road with petrol bombs, but not cause any damage.  With molotov cocktails.