Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

DR RANDERA: I think it's very important, and they have lots of time to make that their statement if they can, we have an office in Durban as well, so if it is possible for you to get a message top them, they should actually be making a statement and Mr Sibiya.
 I just want to come back to what you said earlier on that some conflict was taking place in this area.  I'm sure it was more than just some conflict, it was almost like a war that was going on.  People were dying. In fact hundreds of people lost their lives between, certainly between 1987 and 1994, do you agree with that?

JOHANNES DHLOMO: I think, according to my own opinion, I could say that I do agree with this statement because when I was admitted and I came back I didn't have a place to stay anymore, then I could say that it was not just a conflict, it was a war situation and it was quite a big war I could say.

DR RANDERA: Mr Dhlomo, I just want to go back to this situation in 1994 where you say that Mr Sibiya was a leader and you too were a leader in the hostel. When you say you were leaders, were you leaders of the IFP, in the hostel, were you indunas, or were you just representatives of people who were living in the hostel?

JOHANNES DHLOMO: I've already explained that Jeffrey was a leader of the IFP, especially the youth brigade.  I also explained that I was elected by the hostel dwellers as well as my people in Kwa Zulu to be an induna, and I also explained that at the time, I was an ordinary Zulu who was leading Zulus at the hostel or the entire Zulu nation.  I also explained that at the time I did not belong to any political organisation. I went on to say that now I'm a member of the IFP. When this conflict started I decided to join the IFP because I realised that there were some political elements in the conflict and now I've decided to join Inkatha Freedom Party because it looks as if politics was taking precedence.  And when I was elected I was not elected as a member of a political group.

DR RANDERA: Mr Dhlomo I don't want my questions to detract from what happened to you and to Mr Sibiya, but as you know we are also asked to develop as complete a picture as possible of what happened in this period.  So I'm trying to just get some more information in that respect.  We've heard many stories and some people are even coming today to that effect that people were taken into hostels from taxis, individuals were taken into hostels, either tortured or never seen again.  Can you comment on that?

JOHANNES DHLOMO: I don't remember any incident whereby a taxi from the residential area came into the hostel with people who were not hostel dwellers and who would later disappear, because they were killed at the hostel.  I have no recollection of that, even though at the time I was admitted and even when I came back from the hospital and never heard anything of that sort.  All that I heard was that Mr so-and-so had gone out of the hostel but did not come back into the hostel.  That is when some of the hostel dwellers gathered themselves and went out but they were killed in a taxi. About 15 of them were killed at a certain open ground in Palm Ridge,.  They were taken out of a taxi and they were killed.  I was still very sick at the time but I was able to hear that this incident had taken place.
 And the second incident was when some of our brothers from Siluma, who were at Kwesine were taken to a certain dam where they were killed and some six of them died and some survived the incident.
 That is all that I know.  This gave me a picture that we were not going to get any thoroughfare in the residential area because they were putting barriers for us not to be able to go through.  That's all I know.

DR RANDERA: Can I just follow that last question up by another one.  There've also been stories of hostel residents attacking people who lived in the residential areas.  It almost as if there were organised attacks.  People actually went out in an organised group and started attacking people who were living in the houses.  Do you want to comment on that?

JOHANNES DHLOMO: I wouldn't comment on that. As you said that these were stories and rumours, I never ever got to know anything of that sort, I have no knowledge of anything that happened in that fashion, I am not clear on that aspect.  And  as I've already explained that we did not have anybody who was on our side because the police as well as the soldiers, were against us together with the residents.  If I could take members of the Truth Commission to show them the hostels and they would see the bullet holes as well as the damage that was done at that time by the police and the soldiers.  We are the ones who were being attacked, so there was no way for us to be able to go into the location and launch attacks on the residents, because we did not have any weapons.

DR RANDERA: Mr Dhlomo, just as a comment, I'm not wanting a debate here, it's more than rumour, I mean I think, and stories, we know today and in those days that many people were killed in these sort of incidents, so I think it's not a rumour that we're talking about.  I just want to, my last question is related to what you've just raised and the question of the police and the army.  Again in many areas that we've gone to, and I'm not only talking about the East Rand, the Vaal, the West Rand, Soweto, stories have come forward of the relationship or apparent relationship between hostel dwellers and sometimes the army as well, where it appeared as if the police and army were cooperating with hostel dwellers. Now the story that you have told us today in 1994, let us remember that it was 1994, seems to contradict that story.  Can you tell us what your impressions were?  Was there any association between police, army and hostel dwellers, were you given support were they against you as much as the residents seemed to be?

JOHANNES DHLOMO: Let me put it this way.  I don't remember, not even a single incident where we were helped by the police.   I do understand what you have just put forward that these are not rumours, these are things that took place. But there is no connection or relationship that we had with the police and the soldiers, we wouldn't be laying a complaint against them if they were helping us. Instead they were against us and they were killing us, they were not helping us in any way.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Mr Dhlomo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dhlomo, thank you, thank you very much.  This is very important testimony because as a member of Inkatha, as a hostel dweller, as somebody who is also in a position of leadership, you obviously were in quite an important position to see what was going on and we appreciate you coming to share with the Commission your understanding, your views and your impressions on the conflict.  It's very important because we point at all the time that the Commission is not here to take sides, but to try and understand the political conflict from its various sides and the conflict from all sides, so by you coming forward and giving your account, hopefully we can get a more balanced account and version of what happened.  So thank you very much for coming to the Commission.

JOHANNES DHLOMO: I also thank you Mr Chairman.