Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

UNKNOWN: But you told us a few seconds ago that it was because he didn't have anyone he trusted.  You told us a few seconds ago, you told us that he didn't have anyone that he trusted therefore you should look for someone else.  Do you understand the question?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Please repeat that question.

UNKNOWN: I said to you, I was trying to clarify whether he had told you to find other people or not and you said yes, there was no-one else that he trusted at the meeting, no other comrades that he trusted that were present there and therefore you should find other people.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I was supposed to look for two other persons.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  The issue here is the reason why you should go and look for other people.  You don't understand what I'm saying to you?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I would not be able to say or state the reason with certainty because he was the one who told me to go and look for other persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would you answer like that if you're not sure?  You were asked, how did it come that he asked you and you said he didn't trust other people in the meeting.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Then take my word for it, that was your answer.  That he asked you, Mandla called you aside and told you that you should go rob a bank and you should go find assistance with two other people and he did so because he didn't trust anybody else in the meeting, but you.

UNKNOWN: Is that right?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Ja, it's right.

UNKNOWN: So it wasn't a question that there were comrades that were busy at K Section and therefore they couldn't help you?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Those comrades were from K Section, we resided at L.

UNKNOWN: Carry on.

MS LOONAT: Mr Mahambane, you have us understand that it was Mandla who instructed you to rob the bank in Umhlanga, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

MS LOONAT: You had two co-accused with you.  Who chose the two co-accused to assist you that day?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I did.

MS LOONAT: Why did not Mandla chose them to help you?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: He said because I was going to be responsible for that job, I should decide on who to take with.

MS LOONAT: Were the two accused, members of the ANC party as well?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, they were just criminals.

MS LOONAT: Why did you chose two criminals to assist you in what was a politically motivated attack?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I knew that they were criminals who were always after money.  I knew that it would not be easy for them to refuse.

MS LOONAT: To refuse what?

CHAIRPERSON: To refuse the attraction of robbing a bank?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: They would not have refused to rob a bank because they were criminals who used to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know of a few others who love money too.  Now tell me, when you approached these two people, what was the arrangement you had with them?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I informed them that there was a bank we were to rob.  I informed them that there was a bank that we were supposed to rob and they said they wanted to go see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us that whole story now.  One of the things you must do to get amnesty, you must tell us everything.  I want to know how you approached these people, how did you persuade them to participate?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: As I knew that they were criminals who were attracted to money, I was convinced that they would not refuse to accompany me, so when I arrived I told them that there was a job to do and they asked:  "What?"  I said it was a bank to rob and they wanted to go see the bank and we went.

UNKNOWN: But how did you know these people?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: They resided in the township and there aren't that many people.  You know your fellow residents.

UNKNOWN: So they weren't friends of yours, they were just people you knew?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I knew them from afar, they were not my friends.

UNKNOWN: So they were really strangers to you, just people you knew that lived in the township and you knew that they were criminals.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I would not call them strangers because we would sometimes meet at the soccer ground or wherever in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: In any case, you were supposed to be the main person in control, the Commander of this group to go rob a bank, correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you tell them why this job must be done?  Did you tell them that?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I did not give them any reasons.  They would not have accepted my reasons, that it was for political reasons, because these were criminals.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell them that:  "Look here ..."  How did you propose to then share the money?  This job -this robbery of this bank was supposed to be done and committed for the benefit of your organisation totally.  How were you planning to get away with 100% of what you robbed that bank of and give it to Mandla or whoever, because here you had two accomplices who were criminals and lots of money?  How were you going to overcome that?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Before we left for that mission, we actually left from Mandla's home and we had planned that we would return there.

CHAIRPERSON: And, were they not told:  "Look, when we go on this robbery, this is not a normal robbery like happened in the old days in Texas where we share the money.  All this money we take, we're going to give it to the organisation", did you not tell them that?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, they would have refused, had I told them so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mandla tell them that?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: He did not tell them.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you going then to overcome this problem when they said:  "Look, we want our share of the money.  We're going to split it three ways."

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That would have been decided on our return.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to think about that.  We're going to adjourn for five minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MS LOONAT: Your Honour, may I have permission first to address one matter that arose early in the evidence when I questioned my client about a previous conviction.  At the time he denied it, but it's been worrying him because he did admit it to me and it seemed to have escaped my mind. He did have a previous conviction for stealing a purse, for which he got 4 strokes, he was 19 years old and he just wanted to clarify that before he proceeds.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MS LOONAT: Okay.  Would you like me to question?  Thank you.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: s.u.o.)

MS LOONAT: (cont.)
	Mr Mahambane, you and your co-accused were instructed by Mandla to attack the bank and you left from Mandla's house at the time.  The question is, when you obtained - if your robbery was a success, how were you going to convince two criminals who were not ANC supporters or members to hand over the money to Mandla?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I trusted that Mandla and Bheki Manzi would be able to convince these two persons to hand over the money.  I was the person, the primary person in that operation.  I had the cash when we left the bank and from there we were going to go straight to Mandla's home.

UNKNOWN: Just clarify something.  So Bheki Manzi knew about this plan as well?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, he did not know.

UNKNOWN: Well then how would he convince them if he didn't know about it?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: There is a person from whom Mandla received his instructions, I assumed that they would be able to convince these two persons between themselves.

UNKNOWN: Surely if he was going to convince them, he would have to know about the plan?  He would have to know what they had done, to convince them to part with the money, surely?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: With regards to Bheki Manzi, I am just assuming that he should have assisted but the person who was close to me and whom I dealt with directly, was Mandla.