Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: In terms of the organisational structure, maybe you had a proper briefing about the minutes more than I do, but what I remember is that the street defence units within our area, which meetings were held on Tuesdays, were formed in August in 1990.   I do not want to dispute what you're saying, because you are well-informed about these structures.   I'm talking about the area which I lived and I concentrated on in Diepkloof.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will tell you why I put all these things to you, it's because I do not accept what you are saying, it never existed.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It existed, that is the street defence unit.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: These street defence units, were they formed to be offensive units or defensive units?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: When you talk about defence, basically they were formed to defend, but the political situation at that time, we were first asked that we should be offensive, because as long as to be offensive with the view of to defend, it was acceptable, there was no problem.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do I then understand you to be saying that they were formed to be defensive units, and that would be the order of your leaders, that this is a defensive unit, am I correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, that is correct, to protect the community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And if you tell it to become an offensive unit, that would not be with the blessing of the leaders, but it will be out of your own, will that be correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: No, I would not agree with you, sir, on that fact, because I want to say if you talk about a leader, which leader are you talking about, which leader are you talking about?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Your co-ordinators and your founders.   You say this was established by the ANC, am I correct, which would mean that it is the ANC, if it was, that was controlling the street defence units, giving orders?   Did you get orders from the ANC?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, that is correct.  I want you to understand this important point, that when you look at street defence unit in terms of the structure you have explained, it looked easy, but I want you to understand on this point what was happening at that time.   We, on the ground, we respected people who were from exile, people who came from exile and who were MK's, those were the people who had more information and had more advices to help us to defend our community.   If a person like Comrade Motepa came, and came to me as an individual and explained to me about the plan to attack that particular place, I did not have the right to get the permission from the co-ordinator, because Comrade Motepa to me was a leader, he was somebody, I looked at him as youth with respect.   I did not, it was not possible for the particular co-ordinator to attend those meetings.   Our meetings were not held in a particular place, so you would understand that in those various meetings, many cadres used to attend those meetings.   That is how Comrade Motepa attended our meeting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why did you choose to hold your meetings at COSAS room, what was the significance of using COSAS room?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: We should look at the history of the COSAS room, because it was for SRC, each and every high school would have SRC office, that is where the meetings of the executive committee of the SRC used to be held, so that particular room was not locked or closed at all times.   Even in the evening, when we wanted to attend our meetings, we used to use that particular room, that is why we give it a name, COSAS room.   It was COSAS which governed our activities.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you a student then?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: No, I was not a student, sir, (indistinct) student.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you a member of COSAS?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: No sir, I was not a member of COSAS.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is the meaning of COSAS?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It means Causes of South African Students.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's go back to Comrade Makarov.   Remember, before the chairperson asked me a question, I said to you you stayed in the area with Comrade Makarov and you said yes?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, it was in the same area.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I know that you're talking about area, not street?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, we used to stay in one area.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you knew him for a long time?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I would not say I knew him for a long time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Okay, let us be direct, for how long had you known him?

CHAIRPERSON: That is prior to 1991?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I knew him by attending those meetings, because he used to chair those meetings.   I started to attend those meetings in the late 1990 or early 1991, that is when I started to attend those meetings, then I saw him as the chairperson of those meetings.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: For how long had you known him before 1991?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Before 1991?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja, the date of the incident.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I would say it's ten months.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: For ten months?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Ja.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You knew him for ten months before you could even see him in meetings, am I correct?   All right... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: My understanding of Mr Ross's answer is that he got to know Makarov from the meetings, because he used to chair those meetings, and he knew him for approximately ten months prior to the date of the incidence, in other words from about the beginning of 1991.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm indebted to the Chair.   Now you knew very well that Makarov is his code name, not so?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now tell us his real name?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: As I said that Comrade Makarov, I didn't know him personally.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know spiritually then?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: When I say personally, he was not my friend, whom I would visit or he would visit me, things like that.   I knew him through these meetings which I attended, we would call each other comrades.   We wanted to be informal in using code names, we didn't want to use our real names, as I've explained that many people attended those meetings.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ross, are you saying you don't know his real name, is that what you are trying to tell us?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I don't know his real name.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I heard your evidence correctly, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, you said these alleged street defence units were formed inter alia to protect the community against crime in the area, is that what you said?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is part of the objective.   They did not protect the community basically from political violence only, but crime was also included in the objectives, because we had our own problems.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But it was there for domestic crime, to put it against attacks in the area, raids and robberies and muggings, that was your target?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, we included those issues in protecting our community against criminal activities.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Right.  Now the street defence units were therefore more on a social basis than political basis, am I correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: The street defence units truly were more social, because they were formed from our communities.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That's correct, you're right, thanks for that.  Just bear with me, Mr Chair?   Now, Comrade Motepa, what are his real names, full names?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: He calls himself with many names, but his real name was Morris Sakeli Mkosi.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you said he was a member of the ANC assisting your people?   He was the member of the ANC?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: He was trained as a cadre.