Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 2000-02-04

ADV SANDI: Who is the Brigadier?  Can you give names?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I mean Col van der Bank.

ADV SANDI: But were you not able to speak to anyone from one of those helicopters and say you've just heard two shots, can they establish what exactly is happening before you give the shout and say "Fire"?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I've just said to the Brigadier:  "Brigadier, there's some shots fired", so he was not in that position to say "Okay, I've spotted people on the ground that are firing."  He was not in that position, but South African Police, I had no communication with South African Police.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Mr Nompozolo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So again, where was the helicopter belonging to the South African Police?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I beg yours?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where was the helicopter?  You said there were two helicopters.

ADV SANDI: Yes, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: One the Ciskei Government and the other the South African Police.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you said the one in which Col van der Bank was travelling was not in the vicinity of the crowd which was embarking on you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where was it to start with?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I cannot tell Sir, because he was monitoring the situation, the whole situation.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now where was the helicopter used by the South African authorities?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Also I cannot say exactly he was here or there, but I was just seeing them time and again, time and again, flying over, time and again flying over.  But at that stage I didn't notice the whereabouts of those helicopters.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, you said you had to sit down to communicate because there was this noise of the helicopter.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I take it it was just around there in the vicinity.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's why I say I am saying that I didn't spot where the helicopters were, but Brig van der Bank, at that specific moment, our helicopter was not there.  The police, I didn't notice where is it or where are they at the moment, but there was a noise.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Assuming the sound of the gunshot was from the helicopters, were you able, or could you be able to make a distinction that it wasn't from the ground but from the helicopters?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I cannot make a decision, Sir, I cannot.  Only the medical people can say, maybe the people are shot on the head, can say that was being shot at on top, but I cannot tell.

MR NOMPOZOLO: No I mean the direction of where the sound of the gunfire was coming from.  Would you make any difference whether it was coming from the side of the ground or from the side of the helicopter, or it was impossible for you to establish?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's why I was saying, to my belief it was from the ground.  That's why ...(intervention)

MR NOMPOZOLO: But you've got no basis to say that?  On what are you basing that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: What I have told the Commission is that there were no other people maybe at our rear that can fire on us, there were only the people that were confronting us, that we heard shots from.  So I don't know the helicopter or who have shot, but there were shots being fired.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes but the helicopters were hovering above and making a lot of noise, that is why you had to sit down and communicate.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can I just round this off?  Are you saying that it is possible that the sounds that you heard, the gunshot sounds that you heard, could have come from the helicopter as well?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I cannot say Sir, because I don't know the armament that they have there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  No but I'm just talking about your situation and the conditions on the scene.  Were the conditions such that it was possible that what you heard could have come from the helicopter?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I can say so, maybe from the helicopter or from the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: It could have come from either of that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Yes, Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now you have said you don't know the armament they had in the helicopter, so possibly they could have used more than what you instructed to be used in the helicopter because you don't know what armoury they had.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Positive.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now on page 5 of your affidavit, paragraph 5 you say
"At the time when I required instructions from my commanders, I honestly believed that my troops and I were in danger and conveyed this to them."
Now my question is, were you in a position to measure the danger you were facing at that time?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, I think I can measure it.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What sort of danger was that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Firstly the crowd was running on us, so we never know, maybe they can take the guns and shoot at us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's why I feel threatened.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now you have said in your evidence-in-chief then you instructed the soldiers to use the minimum force.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, correct me if I'm wrong.  If I am carrying a rifle and I'm instructed according to you to use a minimum force, a minimum force with a rifle would be to fire fewer shots to just stop what is dangerous or the danger I'm facing, am I correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now if one is carrying a rocket launcher with six grenades on it, if he uses two, that would amount to a minimum force, am I correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What would it amount to?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Ja, the minimum force, we use it in the urban operation when controlling the crowd and then we use rifles and then the rocket launcher is used only when there's, I can say a battle but I've never experienced a battle, when the situation is very tense.  We were fighting or we were doing exercise to demolish a bigger target or a hard target.  Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What would be the purpose of the army taking to the crowds a rocket launcher if you know that it's only used on a battle?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.  As I have stated yesterday, that according to the information there, we the army, we were only carrying live ammunition and then according to the information we received from my Intelligence Section, that there would be a fight between the MK and us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: So we were going to fight with them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  So there is a possibility, according to you, that the MK was shooting at you, because on the briefing you knew that the MK was going to fight you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So then, when you took that racket launcher, you knew that there was a possibility that it can be - in fact there was more a probability of using it, than a mere possibility?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I mean to use a rocket launcher in that situation, it was wrong and unlawful because if there was the attack of the MK, the attack will be purely an attack to us, they will never involve the civilians, the marchers, they will openly come forward and then they charge.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But on your own evidence, Sir, you have told the Commission that you believed that you were attacked and you and the troops were in danger.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you believed that shots were fired at you.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And at that time you had troops who were armed with heavy armoury.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you left the base with that armoury, you knew that there would be consequences that that armoury might be used there at the scene.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.