Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier, towards the end of your submission, you spoke about your political activities. MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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Brigadier could you tell us which political party you this is and you said you were a councillor and a mayor, for which political party were you a member of?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, I do not have anything with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear me now Brigadier?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Yes I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that your activities, recent activities when in politics as a councillor in Warmbaths and as a mayor, are you affiliated to any political party and in which political party do you serve in those capacities?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, I was always a National Party member and I was a card-carrying member, I paid my subscription fees and when they appointed this Parson Commission, I joined the Conservative Party and in the near future I will be fighting in the local election as an independent.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're now independent but you were at a stage a member of the Conservative Party.  When you were a local councillor, you were there in your capacity as a member of the Conservative Party?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: That's correct I started as council member as a member of the Conservative Party.  Chairperson, the policy of the Conservative Party, I do not know what it is any more. But back then in my days, it was for independent development.

CHAIRPERSON: In your testimony you said that one of the people who was very strongly supportive of independence, is Professor Simon Gouws, who was at the Rand Afrikaanse
University, who was an advisor to many of the cabinet ministers, he was advisor to S S Skosana when he was chief MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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minister and I think he continued in that capacity, when Majoze George Mahlanga took over as chief minister.  Now is it not the case Brigadier that there was a time when you also had a very close relationship with Simon Gouws, particularly on this issue of independence?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Gouws is the man who together with
General Coetzee and together with General Schutte, who investigated the murder, he investigated the matter and he also covered it up, I flew with him and Simon Gouws immediately stopped the document in my hand which he wrote to Chris Heunis which mentioned and so on and so forth.  In that letter was also mentioned that this person had to be transferred, so it was done.

CHAIRPERSON: You said about the responsibility which political which political parties have to accept for their role and I don't think that anyone disagrees with that position, in fact you may know that the political parties have made submissions to the Truth Commission and that they're actually going to be recalled because there are certain questions which the Truth Commission wants to put to them, so the question of the responsibility of the political parties is going to be dealt with by the Truth Commission. But do you think that the individuals, and you said you were a card carrying member of the National Party, don't the individuals also who are members of that party, don't they also have a responsibility or is it a case of saying, it's
not me, it was the leaders, what is the responsibility of those that also carried out the policies of the leaders of the day , what is their responsibility?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson, if you are a commissioner of police, or an administrator of a province, or a director MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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general of finance, then all the interaction between you and the minister, that is, he walks out of the cabinet, comes into office, and then it would circulate from the constable on the ground, back through the commissioner to the minister, the policy is formed in parliament and the enforcement thereof would be the head of the department.

CHAIRPERSON: We had testimony earlier by the former commissioner of the police, General Chris van Niekerk, where he indicated quite clearly that he saw the issue of independence, this political issue, as the major cause of the conflict in the area, he made certain recommendations to the then Cabinet of the South African Government and it was because of those recommendations, because he was seen as interfering in policy that he wasn't carrying out policy, that he was replaced, that he was transferred.  So is it not the case that people actually do make choices, that yes, there is a policy, but in the implementation of that policy, don't individuals have responsibility, don't they make their own choices?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairperson I already mentioned that the police were already involuntarily involved in politics. I said that in my submission and I would like to say Chris van Niekerk heard what I said, I am not going to say it was not true, he spoke on his own behalf, I am not going to say anything on his behalf, I do not know anything about what went on between him and the government, but when I got there Chris worked under me and I would like to say to you, Nick de Villiers told me, phoned me and said to me, "Man the police at Kwandebele, are arresting people and taking them to Siyabuswa Hall and that they are being assaulted there and I phoned Chris and said, "Chris stop that immediately!". MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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Chairman to be honest, I stopped him and General Malan, I will call him now, I told Chris van Niekerk to withdraw those people because we cannot these people and kill these people, they can come and tell you, I stopped that, but I cannot speak on Chris van Niekerk's behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not the question I was asking.  What
I was saying was that the policy of the day, of the government of the day, was the question of independence, that was the policy.

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: I can hear you now, it seems my head shrinks from time to time.  Chairperson I listened to what you said.

CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier, the policy of the day was independence, that was the policy and Chris van Niekerk was seen as not supporting that policy. In fact to put it even stronger, he was accused of undermining that policy. The person who accused him of doing that was Simon Gouws, that he was undermining this policy of independence. It was necessary to replace him therefore with the Commissioner of Police who would carry out the policy of the day, who wouldn't question the policy of the day. And that, according to our information , our research, that is why you were chosen to come to this area, because you were prepared to ensure that the policy of the day, the issue of the independence for Kwandebele, that that policy was going to be implemented, come what may. Is that not true?

BRIG HERTZOG LERM: Chairman, I received an instruction, I will go back to Chris van Niekerk.  Chris van Niekerk applied to assist these people with independence, he applied and he was seconded, I was not seconded. I was brought here amid a crises, and I was aware of the fact that there was MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
 
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this question of independence and I was told, ensure that there is peace and stability so that this area could be made independent.  I merely enforced instructions.