Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, as far as I can recall, she only conveyed certain information to me, to the extent that there would be another infiltration and the date on which the infiltration would take place, that members will once again infiltrate and that was what the discussion was about.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that she was involved, at least she was to be involved as far as the ANC knew, with the transportation of these people?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson, the arrangements of the transport on the South African side.

MR MOERANE: Yes, and they relied on her for transport?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: That is in both incidents, the first one and the second?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And the contact was supposed to be a person by the name of Amos?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: With the first incident, yes Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: The Amos whom we know was Lieutenant Mose?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And on the second occasion she reported to the ANC that the person who had transported these people, was Amos' brother, Johannes?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson, I can recall that.

MR MOERANE: And we all know that in fact that was a lie, it was Sergeant Manzini?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: It was Manzini, yes Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: After the second incident, did you speak to your source?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson, we had contact again.  I cannot recall exactly at which stage, but after the second incident it became general knowledge that there were shooting incidents.  I imagine that during that time, I had contacted her again Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: What report did you give to her after the second infiltration, attempted infiltration?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I cannot specifically what I mentioned to the source, but it was clear, everybody knew what had happened.

MR MOERANE: No Mr Theron, you must remember that very clearly for several reasons, firstly, she must have been told by the person who survived that there was a shooting incident, secondly, it had been reported in the press particularly in Swaziland, that nine people had been killed, not so?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Yes, so please tell this Honourable Committee the nature of your conversation and what you reported to her, and what her attitude was?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I really cannot recall what was discussed there, but I understand the informer must have heard what the circumstances with regard to the infiltration was, but I can really not specifically recall what I mentioned to the source.  Maybe I should just mention that a handler who handles a source, wants information, not conveying information.  It has to be kept in mind the handling of sources has to be handled very sensitively.  A handler does not always know whether the source might be a double agent and as little as possible information would be conveyed to the informer, except in the case where certain information has to be obtained by the source.

MR MOERANE: Are you telling us that you also do not know how she responded, how she reacted to these events?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I cannot really recall what the source's feeling was with regard to that.

MR MOERANE: Well ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Moerane, did you get the feeling that everything was all right with her, or did you get the feeling that she was nervous or worried or didn't you get any sense of feeling at all as to how she was thinking?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, as far as I can recall there was a stage when some of the members of the ANC had approached her and requested her to go to another destination, it was outside Swaziland, I suspect it must be Zambia or Mozambique and that she refused to go, so I believe that she must have been nervous.

MR MOERANE: Didn't she tell you that she was now suspected of being an agent or an informer?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: The source did mention that Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Didn't she ask for protection from you?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: She just asked for her money?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is probably so Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: She was paid, not so?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, she was paid.

MR MOERANE: On what basis, was she paid a regular salary or was she paid on the basis of the information, on the basis of the number of scalps she delivered?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, usually our sources were paid their travelling costs and then claims were laid for services rendered.  An active source would get more money than an inactive source.

MR MOERANE: How much was she paid for these two incidents?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I cannot remember specific amounts.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us a ball park figure?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I imagine there was a claim for something like R10 000 or R11 000 at some stage and then another amount was claimed at another stage, at a later stage but I cannot recall the exact amounts, I cannot recall all of it.   There was much - payment was made for travelling costs and other expenses.

MR MOERANE: Well, you were the handler so you knew about particulars of her payment, not so?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: I am instructed that she was removed from Swaziland towards the end of July 1988 or thereabouts?  Do you confirm that?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson.  I received information that during that time period, at approximately that time, she was abducted by  members of the ANC and taken to a camp in Zambia.

MR MOERANE: Yes, I think it is common cause that that was one called Sun City?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Did you have contact with her after her release?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Did you give her any further compensation?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson, she returned and reported what had happened to her.  She mentioned to me that she had lost everything and I once again applied that she be compensated.

MR MOERANE: Was she compensated?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes.

MR MOERANE: How much?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I cannot recall the exact amount, but it was much money Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Well, give the learned Committee some idea what you mean by that?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: R50 000, R60 000 somewhere roundabout there Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And for purposes of that further interview or contact with you, did she have to give the impression that she was being detained by the Piet Retief police?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No Chairperson, there was no mention of detentions.

MR MOERANE: And to your knowledge she was not detained by the Piet Retief police?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No Chairperson, not at all.

MR MOERANE: If that had happened, you would have known about that?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Definitely Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: You were a member of the Security Branch station at Piet Retief?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I was a member of that Branch Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And you fell under the command of Warrant Officer Pienaar?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: For how many years were you so stationed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I imagine that in 1985 or 1986 I arrived there up to approximately 1991 whereafter I was transferred to Ermelo.

MR MOERANE: Are you still a member of the South African Police Services?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: What is your present rank?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I am Superintendent Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Stationed at?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Provincial Head Office Middelburg.

MR MOERANE: Yes, can you explain to this Honourable Committee why you decided to involve yourself in, let's take the first incident, in murder?