Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.  I made them understand that the revolution was not starting in the Randfontein area, but country wide, and that us as a group, at Randfontein, we would act in Randfontein area.

MR KNOETZE: You have already mentioned the Order Group that you attended and the instruction that you received from Gen Oelofse.  Can you explain why you would accept that the order that he gave, was an order from the AWB and not a personal order that he gave in his personal capacity?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I could not see how this was in his personal capacity, because as I have said the top structures within the AWB in all the towns, all their Commanding Officers attended that meeting.  For example Krugersdorp, Johannesburg, so for me it was not a matter of he gave the order in his personal capacity.
	I believed that this came from the Generals in staff.

MR KNOETZE: When you told this to your fellow applicants, when you referred to the start of the revolution, this was the real McCoy, there had to be corpses, did you convey this in your capacity as Commander in this region?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, I acted as Chief Commander, I was the leader of Randfontein.  I should have been promoted a long time ago, but opportunity was never there, but in my capacity as Chief Commander I acted, and gave this order.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR KNOETZE: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I don't know whether you would prefer Mr Dreyer to question first.

CHAIRPERSON: We can do it that way.

MR DREYER: Mr Kloppers, from the content of the different applications that is here in front of the Commission, it looks like the acts of the group of those people, acted because they believed that you as the Chief Commander, the order that you conveyed to them, you received through the channels from the top structure of the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: For a moment I would like to present the following construction to you, would you agree with me that within any armed struggle, whether it be conventional or unconventional, freedom movements or an actual conventional onslaught, that there would always be the official and planned action of the larger group, the military power but when one in retrospect examines the situation again, that there are many examples in history that a smaller, splinter faction or individual group, would be found to have acted on their own.  Do you know of anything like this and what is your comment?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It might have happend, but not in our case.

MR DREYER: I accept that in your position as the Chief Commandant of area 9, Randfontein and from within your background as a Training and Intelligence Officer, as well as your background in the military, you understood clearly the implications of an order in the execution of a specific task?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, you are correct.

MR DREYER: Am I also correct in saying that the basis of each and every application which is submitted to the Committee today, is closely related to an order from which none of the applicants can actually say that that is the order upon which I acted, is that the core of it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.  That is a question which was put, and which has been answered.

MR DREYER: If it were to be found that there were no such order, which has been said to the mass media by Eugene Terreblanche, then it would imply that you and the rest of your group acted as individuals and not within the mandate of the AWB as an organisation?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If you are putting it that I acted beyond my powers, and beyond the orders which were given to me, then you are not correct, that is not what happened.

MR DREYER: What is unsettling to me, and I do not wish to refer to previous proceedings, especially not criminal proceedings in which you were involved, I am referring to your written application, in the documents which have been made available to me, within that application and I wish to refer you to specific sections thereof.
	The first being on the paginated page 7, or the typed page 4 of your application, and that would be paragraph 6.  	There you arrived at the large meeting in Potchefstroom where the AWB was also present and you mentioned Gen Constand Viljoen who was the chief speaker at the meeting.  Let me first ask you, it was therefore clearly not an AWB meeting, but a meeting of a conglomerate of right wing organisations, am I correct?  It was not exclusively an AWB meeting, am I correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, it was not exclusively an AWB meeting, it was AWB, Constand Viljoen, Ferdi Hartzenberg and so forth.

MR DREYER: Then approximately in the middle of that paragraph you say that the tensions mounted after the meeting, and we realised that after the order of Gen Constand Viljoen to us to sow terror, the war would break out soon.
	What I want to know from you is, that order to sow terror, in terms of the time period, how long before or after the meeting of the 12th of December, the Order Group meeting, how long after that, was that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was not specifically mentioned.  As in all our cases, when an order was specifically given to us, the revolution would begin on the 12th of December 1993.

MR DREYER: I don't think that you are answering my question.  What is the difference in time between the Potchefstroom meeting and the Order Group meeting to which you have referred?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It maybe three to four months.

MR DREYER: Therefore in other words, it would be correct of me to accept that three to four months before the Order Group meeting an order was issued by a prominent figure according to you, Constand Viljoen, that terror had to be sowed, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was not so much an order as it was a call.

MR DREYER: In your application you clearly refer to an order, you must understand the difference between an order and a call?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is why I am indicating it to you.

MR DREYER: Then within the same application, you mention and I am moving towards the end of your application, I think it is page 22, paginated 22, 19 typed, paragraph 44.  You state there and this is at the end of your application, you have told us the whole story, and now you are constructing the basis as to why you acted lawfully and why your conduct could be classified as military conduct, you state the motive for the acts which I committed on behalf of the AWB and under the command of Gen Constand Viljoen in cooperation with Dr Ferdi Hartzenberg, was to establish a political revolt.
	There is something strange here to me because I think that we can generally accept that it is general knowledge that neither Gen Viljoen nor Ferdi Hartzenberg were leaders of the AWB, am I correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, you are correct.

MR DREYER: This Mr Kloppers is the second construct from which your order would have emanated.  We now have Dr Hartzenberg in cooperation with Gen Viljoen, in opposition to what you said earlier that it was an order from Constand Viljoen at a meeting in Potchefstroom.  We now have two constructs, do you agree?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, I agree.

MR DREYER: And then there is a third construct if one considers your application and your testimony in their entirety that you directly received an order from Gen Japie Oelofse?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.  This entire paragraph should have read the  motive for the deeds which I committed on behalf of the AWB and under the order of Gen Japie Oelofse in cooperation with Gen Constand Viljoen and Dr Hartzenberg.