Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JIMMY MBANE: The kombi it's one of the kombi's that were driven by (...indistinct).  We came town with them from Pretoria.  As to whether there was ammunition in the kombi or not, I did not go back to Pretoria.  I spoke to the Vlakplaas commander, that was when I was given the ammunition in order to go and infiltrate this group.

MR BOOYENS: Now, when Ms Berlin was leading your evidence, you were quick to correct Maluleka, why didn't you correct that?
	I am talking about the fact that you said that you reported to Vlakplaas again, after you had joined the fight against the Witdoeke.

JIMMY MBANE: I think there was a mistake there.   I overlooked it.  I got the ammunition here in Cape Town, not in Vlakplaas.

MR BOOYENS: Surely your legal team have gone with you through your statement before you testified yesterday?  Because you were actually being led on it.

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it is so.

MR BOOYENS: Well, why didn't you correct it during consultation?	Why didn't you correct it during evidence in chief?

JIMMY MBANE: That never came to my mind.  The only thing that I noticed was Eric's name.

MR BOOYENS: I suggest to you it didn't come to your mind because it's essentially true, what you said here, you did go back to Vlakplaas.

JIMMY MBANE: I never went back to Vlakplaas.
	I stayed here two months, and this happened in March, after having stayed here for two months.  And thereafter I went back, after the completion of the mission.  I arrived here in January and left only in March.

MR BOOYENS: These three informers that you were involved with the death of.  Did you tell Mr Bellingan that you had killed three police informers?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I told him.  I told him at the Parade, where we met.

MR BOOYENS: How many times did you tell him that you had killed police informers?

JIMMY MBANE: I told him first about Lizo, and the second one - the first time he was in the company of Liebenberg, and secondly I told him that I don't have an alternative but to kill Liebenberg's informers, because they are always found with tapes with them.  Because whenever he sent an informer, we had to shoot him.

MR BOOYENS: And notwithstanding that fact, they carried on sending informers to a group that was well infiltrated by two security policemen.

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they continued sending informers.

MR BOOYENS: Notwithstanding the fact that you and Maluleka were there on the ground directing operations and reporting to them regularly.

JIMMY MBANE: They continued.

MR BOOYENS: And were these informers specifically sent to infiltrate your group?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: All three of them?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, all three of them.

MR BOOYENS: Now, how long before the actual operation did the first informer, Lizo, come in?

JIMMY MBANE: We were still busy training them.

MR BOOYENS: How long before the initial operation.  I know you can't be exact.

JIMMY MBANE: It might have been a week or two or three.

MR BOOYENS: After you infiltrated this group?  Or before the operation?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Booyens.  Was it one, two or three weeks after he infiltrated?

MR BOOYENS: That's what I am trying to figure out as well.  I don't understand that either Mr Chairman.  Was it....

CHAIRPERSON: Well, your question was fairly clear - that how much time before the operation.

MR BOOYENS: Fine, I'll accept that.  And the second informer,how many weeks before the operation?  If I talk about the operation, I talk about the ambush.

JIMMY MBANE: It was not after a long time, but it was consecutive.

MR BOOYENS: And the same goes for the third one?

JIMMY MBANE: The third one as well.

MR BOOYENS: But, what I don't understand is you were the experienced people at that stage, you and Eric Maluleka, not so?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: You were actually in charge of this group by then.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now, why...who dealt with the interrogation of these informers?

JIMMY MBANE: It myself, Eric and Rastaman.
	We were all in the group.

MR BOOYENS: And who searched them?

JIMMY MBANE: We would choose anyone to do the job.  There was no specific person responsible for searching them.

MR BOOYENS: But, did you suspect that these people were police informers?

JIMMY MBANE: The people who knew them, the people from Cape Town, they suspected these people.

MR BOOYENS: And can you explain why it was necessary to sent people to infiltrate your group, further informers, because the logic of it escapes me.  They knew exactly what your group was doing.  You were reporting regularly.

JIMMY MBANE: That's why I called a special meeting with Bellingan because I wanted to know what was happening because these people had tapes and I didn't know what was happening.
	Liebenberg denied sending the informers to the unit.  That is why I demanded a special meeting because why were they sending informers, knowing very well that we are already infiltrated the group.

MR BOOYENS: You say Liebenberg denied sending the informers.  And what did Bellingan say about it?

JIMMY MBANE: I can't remember Bellingan's response.  But what I told them is that whenever, if ever they send an informer while I was still there, I would kill that informer.

MR BOOYENS: Oh, so you actually informed them that you were going to kill the informers if they sent further informers?
	Is that right?  Was that after you killed Lizo?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: And what was their action when you told them that you had killed their informers?

JIMMY MBANE: He didn't admit that he sent an informer.  There was nothing further for him to say.

MR BOOYENS: And you say Bellingan's response you can't remember.

JIMMY MBANE: I can't remember.

MR BOOYENS: And the second and third informers, what was their reaction when you told them you had killed even more of their informers?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't remember, but I told them that I won't put my life in danger by letting them send the informers, because these people had tape recorders.  It means that if Liebenberg is still prepared to send more informers, I am going to kill all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it putting your life in danger?

JIMMY MBANE: The people in the unit would search these informers and they would get the tapes attached to their bodies and I was staying there with the people who depended solely on me.  Especially if they found someone with a tape, they were depending on me on what to do with those people, therefore, I would tell them to kill those people.

MR BOOYENS: How do you know that Liebenberg sent these informers?

JIMMY MBANE: Because I was dealing directly with Liebenberg, that's why I knew that it was Liebenberg because he was the person who knew exactly where we were.

MR BOOYENS: No, the question is how did you know it was Liebenberg who sent the informers.

JIMMY MBANE: I think you can hear me.
	If we were here in Cape Town, we used to deal directly with Liebenberg.  The only people who knew our whereabouts were Liebenberg and Bellingan.  Those are the people that I was reporting to directly, Liebenberg and Bellingan.

CHAIRPERSON: But then Liebenberg and Bellingan were also the people who knew they didn't have to send informers, because you were reporting to them.  Isn't that so?

JIMMY MBANE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't it make you think the informers were coming from some other section in the police force?

JIMMY MBANE: I thought that the only people who knew about us was Liebenberg and Bellingan.  There was no-one else.

MR BOOYENS: The - you see I've spoken to Mr Liebenberg and he told me that at no stage did he send informers to the group and at no stage were any informers of his killed by you;  or did you tell him that you had killed his informers.  What do you say about that?