Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR STEENKAMP: Maybe just before we start.  In front of you you'll see copies of three different documents.  I would like to ask permission to hand them in.  The one being a confession of George Mazete, the other being a copy of the confession of Paulos Mohape Mghlole and a further statement of John Avaleno De Castro.

CHAIRPERSON: Rather describe them as statements than confessions, they indicate they did certain things at certain times.  So the first one is, which one are you handing in first?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman the first one I'm handing in, with your permission, is George Mazete's statement.  We ask that mark as an exhibit.

CHAIRPERSON: It must be Exhibit F.

MR STEENKAMP: Exhibit F Mr Chairman.  The statement of Paulos Mohape Mghlole.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit G.

MR STEENKAMP: And a further statement Mr Chairman of John Avaleno De Castro.  As you please Mr Chairman Exhibit H.

CHAIRPERSON: Right continue.  You were about to - you had completed the evidence of Mr Pedro De Castro in chief and now cross examination can commence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr De Castro let me start by saying, accept my condolences and the misery which you went through during the incident and the condolences regarding the loss of your wife on the day in question and I also feel that I am expressing the view of the applicants.

MR P DE CASTRO: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You told this Committee that you are opposing this amnesty on the basis that it was not politically motivated.  Now I would like to know from you what type of places would you describe as political motivated?

MR P DE CASTRO: If it was to be political, there was many other places which there would be much more white people at a time where they could have caused much more havoc within the white communities or to show the government that they are unhappy and they want to kill the whites now.
	I mean like I said yesterday, at Wesselsbron Supermarket 99.9% at that time of the evening, on a Saturday evening especially, there would only be myself and my brother at that time there.  There would be no ...(indistinct), there would be no white customers at that time there and there was a greater, there would be a greater chance at that time, there would actually be more black customers than white customers in the supermarket, so why they chose a supermarket because it's one of the biggest business in the district, it was a very busy place and they knew that financially it would be a lot of money there involved, that's why they chose Wesselsbron Supermarket.  Why didn't they choose a hotel, a nightclub or a bar, because it was a Saturday evening, the people would be enjoying themselves there and they could have caused much more havoc and killed much more whites that at a supermarket.

MR MBANDAZAYO: With due respect Mr De Castro, where there no whites on the day in question at the supermarket?

MR P DE CASTRO: Unfortunately there was, we were almost family that was in the supermarket at that time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And would you agree - and you also confirm that mostly the people who were injured and were attacked on that evening were whites, were white?

MR P DE CASTRO: Unfortunately yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now if I follow your argument that they should have chosen another place where more white would be so don't you feel that on the day in question, because there were more whites on that, so on that score, it was a legitimate target, also the supermarket.

MR P DE CASTRO: It was a target because they wanted money and they knew financially they would find some money in that place and that is what, exactly what they say when they came running into the supermarket, they want money and if they were there to shoot people they should have, when they came in they shouldn't have asked for money or, they should have started shooting straight away.  Only after a while they started shooting people when the realised that things had gone wrong for them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr De Castro was it not your evidence that when they entered the supermarket you were not there, you were at the back?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right ja.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So you don't know what actually happened when they arrived at the supermarket?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well everybody told me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr De Castro you don't know yourself, I'm not asking what you were told.  You don't know what actually took place?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well I was looking at them from the back of the shop.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr De Castro you don't know what actually took place when they arrived at the supermarket?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well as I indicated yesterday that one of the applicants was holding a briefcase.  Why did they come with a briefcase?

CHAIRPERSON: When you came into the supermarket from the bakery, you told us that's where you came in from, did you see anyone who appeared to have been shot at that stage?

MR P DE CASTRO: Not yet.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr De Castro there's still my question that when you came from the bakery from behind, you said that the bakery's at the back?

MR P DE CASTRO: The bakery is linked with the supermarket.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, okay whatever, but when they entered the supermarket you were not there.  When you came, when you heard what - if my notes are correct, is that you heard that there was some noises, there was something going on?

MR P DE CASTRO: I was in the supermarket at the time.  The bakery is linked to the supermarket and there's an opening from the bakery to the supermarket and there's just an oven on the way separating the supermarket and the bakery, therefore I followed - until I ran out of the supermarket, I followed the whole of the proceedings, I followed it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr De Castro I'm still going to press you with this point.  When they entered the supermarket you did not see them?

CHAIRPERSON: You gave evidence that you heard screaming and done gunshot went off?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right, that's when I was alerted that there was something happening there.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you ran to the baker door and saw some men, one carrying a briefcase, Bhani.

MR P DE CASTRO: Ja but at that time I must have been about two or three metres from the door, not more than that.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was one shot you had heard then?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm indebted to the Chairman.  I was - you sum it up Mr Chairman.  Now you agree that the only thing that alerted you was the shot and the screaming?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So you agree with me that when they entered the supermarket that you did not see them?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well it must have been seconds between, a second or two you know, between them entering the shop and myself being alerted you know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes and you agree with me that you did not hear what they were said when they arrived at the supermarket?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well I didn't hear them when they came in, but when they were there I actually heard money, money, while I was standing at the back at the door of the bakery.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you - let me follow it up with this question of Bhani, you always mention Bhani.  How was he carrying his gun and this briefcase you are talking about?

MR P DE CASTRO: He had his firearm like that on his right arm and with the other finger he was holding the briefcase.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The same hand he was holding the firearm he was holding the briefcase?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Hm.  How big was this briefcase?

MR P DE CASTRO: It's a normal briefcase, the flatter ones.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell me, I'm a little bit taken aback, how is that possible somebody holding - I take it it was a bit R4 or R5 or AK?

MR P DE CASTRO: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That the same arm is holding the firearm is holding a briefcase?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's possible yes and that's what he was doing that evening.