Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

LAURENS MBATHA: As I said my intention and the aim and the fact that when the people move away there were no people there.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, how could you have foreseen that there would be no people in the fairly sizeable foyer of this building?  Furthermore, this foyer was glass clad, it was surrounded by shops with glass fronts which opened up into the foyer.  A hand grenade which would have exploded in the foyer, would have reeked even greater havoc. What did you do to ensure that there was no loss of life if as you said you intended that no-one should be hurt?

LAURENS MBATHA: I stick actually to my instructions, this is what I said.

PROF DE KOKER: Your instructions according to what you said, was only: "Throw the hand grenade after the marchers have moved away" but what about the people in the foyer themselves, what did  you do to ensure their safety or were they the people that you planned on being hurt and killed?

LAURENS MBATHA: The instruction was issued out and Smiles himself knew that instruction was with the intention to kill nobody.

PROF DE KOKER: We asked you particularly and in detail yesterday, what your instructions to Mr Smiles entailed - the instruction which you gave was that the hand grenade should be thrown after the marchers had moved away, what about the people in the foyer?

LAURENS MBATHA: At that time because of the protesters who were standing in front, there were no people around the area except the protesters.

PROF DE KOKER: Evidence was led during the trial that at that stage there was between 10 and 15 people in the immediate vicinity in the building - and that is Volume 4, page 316, paragraphs 10 to 30.  How could you have foreseen when you gave the instruction that the foyer at 1 o'clock in the afternoon would be empty?

LAURENS MBATHA: The point where he was supposed to have thrown it - as I've indicated, it was the area where I knew there were no people.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, that area was surrounded by glass fronts - you indicated yesterday that you are well trained, what happens if a hand grenade is thrown into a small enclosure enclosed by glass?

LAURENS MBATHA: The type of glass that is there and in a small enclosure, the concentration becomes limited.

PROF DE KOKER: I put it to you Major Mbatha, in a small enclosure the concentration and the effect of a hand grenade does not become less, it increases.

LAURENS MBATHA: What I'm trying to say is, the danger zone area than in an open field expands to about 200 metres but in an incident of that nature - because of the areas that you refer to, it is contained, it is smaller.  I'm not referring to the impact, the point of impact is something else.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, I put it to you that that foyer was a death trap for anyone standing there and any innocent shoppers in any of the surrounding shops.

LAURENS MBATHA: Well, it actually fell where the deceased stood - that thing only cracked because of the nature of that glass.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't it because it was outside in the open?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, it actually fell exactly into the corner.

ADV DE JAGER: You being a person trained I suppose, would know that in a small cubicle - exploding a hand grenade there, would cause a much greater explosion that exploding it in the open veld?

LAURENS MBATHA: Will you just repeat it again for me?

ADV DE JAGER: If you would throw a hand grenade in a small chamber - glass chamber, it would cause a greater explosion, a greater impact than throwing it out in the open field because of the concentration of air in that - and the air can't move out.

LAURENS MBATHA: Say it is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbatha, did you know whether there would be persons in the foyer in that building?

LAURENS MBATHA: Madam, no.  I actually regarded it as the Bop Consulate offices inside.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That being so, didn't you foresee the possibility of there being private persons in the building, particularly at the point where you intended the grenade to explode?

LAURENS MBATHA: Honestly Madam, no.

PROF DE KOKER: Please describe this building to us Major Mbatha, how many storeys does this building have?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr de Koker, I think - I don't want to curb in your - you're appearing for a victim so I don't want to curb your cross-examination but I think it's clear that a hand grenade was thrown at the building, we know that it's a dangerous weapon that's being used.  As it happened one was person was killed in the outside even so I think as far as that is concerned - and he's applying for amnesty for the murder of that one, so as far as the case before the Committee is concerned, he's applying for amnesty - am I correct, for the murder of a person caused by this explosion.
	It may have been that there could have been 20 people killed - even the people outside, there could have been more of them killed and injured.  And he's applying also for amnesty for the attack on Ms Nel, so as far as that is concerned I don't think we would advance the application or discredit the application one way or the other whether one person was killed or whether 20 could have been killed.  The fact is there was a murder and for that amnesty is being asked, so I think you could accept that the Committee would regard it as a murder for which amnesty has been asked for and an assault or injury to people for which amnesty is being asked for.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Commissioner, I'm pursuing this particular line of cross-examination, I will leave it if that is indicated by the Committee but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you leave it, where was Ms Nel when she was injured?

PROF DE KOKER: She was standing right in front of the building, close to the corner where the hand grenade landed and within about a metre from the sliding door through which this hand grenade was supposed to have passed, so if it didn't fall in the corner right behind her outside the building, it would have fallen behind her inside the building.

CHAIRPERSON: She was not part of the march?

PROF DE KOKER: She was the representative of the National Peace Secretariat in Kimberley, she was assisting Mr Adriano Cassandra who was the United Nations Observer.  She was acting on behalf of the Secretariat as an observer and they were both in conjunction with observers from lawyers from Human Rights and the Council of Churches, they were observing the observance by the participating organisations to the National Peace Accord.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't know the area where this thing happened but I ask this question because if Ms Nel was where you suggest innocent people could have been hurt in the building, it may very well be that you could be entitled to put that kind of question that you have been putting to the witness.