Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-07

MR MATTHEWS: And this boy you say you shot and he died in a donga, is that correct?   Sorry, I beg your pardon, in a mealie field?

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat the question?

MR MATTHEWS: This boy was shot and he died in a donga or a mealie field, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: You have never been charged or arrested for this incident?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No.

MR MATTHEWS: You didn't know this person personally, the deceased?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No, I did not know him.

MR MATTHEWS: And you say you killed him because he was an ANC member?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The third incident pertains to a person by the name of Muzi, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: He was the one who lived or worked at Sarajano Shebeen, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He did not work there, but he was Sarajano's child.

MR MATTHEWS: And you say in your affidavit that he was responsible for setting up roadblocks in the area, stopping buses and compelling people to join the ANC?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: You further state here that you were given instructions by your commander Beki Mkhize to find this person and go and destroy his premises?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He said we should find him, not that we should destroy everything, because if we had said we should destroy everything, I would have killed everybody I encountered at that place, but I killed only him.

MR MATTHEWS: Before we go any further, Mr Mbhele, you have pointed out to me during our consultations that there are certain problems with your affidavit where you differ from what has already been recorded, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Please repeat the question?

MR MATTHEWS: You have pointed out to your legal team during consultations that there are certain differences in your version and that of the affidavit taken by this person in the Westville Prison, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: Now what happened here now, did you go and look for this person?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, we went looking for him and we found him.

MR MATTHEWS: Did you go with the people you have set out here, Nkosi Mkhize, Sikomboso Mkhize, Pilani Dlamini, Masogabeshe Mbeli, Tomasane it looks like Ghandi, Mvusi Tulasimamela and Mbuyiswa Langa?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: You were all armed with different calibre firearms?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: With G3 rifles and shotguns.

MR MATTHEWS: Why was it necessary for you people to go and find this man?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He used to actually prevent children from going to school, he would actually construct these roadblocks on the road and the children could no longer go to school.   I regarded my commander to actually have a very good idea, because he was actually helping these children to return to school.

MR MATTHEWS: Was he a member of the ANC, this Muzi?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.

MR MATTHEWS: Now tell us what happened?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: When I arrived at his house, I knocked on the bigger house and there was no response, and then I approached a rondavel and I heard music from the radio.   I didn't knock, I just kicked the door open and I found him sleeping, himself, his wife and the child, and I inquired of who Muzi was and he showed himself and I asked to speak to him outside.   As he got up from the bed, he tried to grab me, and then I shot him right there in the room.

MR MATTHEWS: Did you then leave the house?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I then left the house.

MR MATTHEWS: But you say in your affidavit that you thought he might not have died, so you went to the back window and fired again through the back window to the place where he had fallen?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: When I went out, I actually went around the window to that spot where he had fallen, and I actually shot at him from outside the window.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matthews, you have indicated to the witness that he has told you that his evidence differs from the affidavit, but so far, as far as I can understand, all he has said accords with the affidavit.   I take it you will be drawing attention to those passages in the affidavit which, although he has already sworn to them, the applicant no longer accepts as correct?

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Chairperson, certainly, there are a number of minor details where there is a difference between what this - when going through the witness' affidavit, where he indicated to me that they were incorrect.   There is nothing of substantial evidence that will be placed before the Court.   I just don't want the situation to arise where the witness is, or the applicant is seen not to be telling the truth because there are certain deviations, if I may call them that, but there's nothing of substance, Mr Chairperson.  Now this Muzi, you say, was shot because he was an ANC member and, according to you, was causing trouble in the area?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I was the only one who shot him.

MR MATTHEWS: Now on your way back you say you also ran into a motor vehicle that was being driven by Mr Msomo, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: But nothing was done to him, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct, he is still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's not quite correct, is it, because you say in your affidavit that while you were travelling you saw this motor vehicle and you shot at it, your members shot at it?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: As I'm explaining, he was not killed, but the vehicle was shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you shoot at a vehicle just driving along the road?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That house was very close to the road and we assumed that that car was actually driving to a police station, or maybe it was actually coming to attack us.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew nothing about who was in the car, about the car at all, but you opened fire on it?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, they did shoot at it, but I was not amongst those who shot at it.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but your group, you were in charge of the group, weren't you?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: They were with me, but I was not a commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Weren't you in charge of them?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No, I was not.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why did you do all the shooting?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I had already dedicated myself to the cause, because we were being attacked and killed as IFP members, and no-one was getting arrested about these incidents, so I had dedicated myself, that is why I went to the house first.

CHAIRPERSON: You had dedicated yourself to kill, is that what you're telling us?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I had dedicated my life, because even my comrades, my colleagues, had been killed.   Fortunately I am not the one who died, but Muzi.

MR MATTHEWS: In fact one of your members tried to shoot this policeman in this motor vehicle, did he not, and you stopped him from doing so?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: Now this Muzi person, did you know him personally?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No, I did not know him, because I even inquired when I got into that house as to who Muzi was, and he showed himself.

MR MATTHEWS: So you had no personal quarrel with him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The only trouble between us was that he was an ANC member and I was an IFP member.

MR MATTHEWS: And your instructions you received from your commander, Beki Mkhize?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, he was trying to actually help those children who were in trouble, who were actually prevented from going to school, he was actually helpful.   As far as I'm concerned, I regard Mr Mkhize as a hero.

DR TSOTSI: Was there any friendship or relationship between you and any ANC member?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Please repeat the question?