Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-18

UNKNOWN: I would think that the main ones that could be identified would be the National Institute for Personnel Research, which is now defunct and subsumed in the Human Sciences Research Council which seemingly has made a total about-face.  But, for example, in terms of the test used to assess intelligence, for many years there were these separate tests and they were just indicated by "NB" for "Nie Blanke" in front of the designation for the test which were then listed in international directories.  But I think that the NIPR has an even further responsibility in their inhuman tests on miners.  They did much of the research, a lot of it which is still secret and I think that these organisations should still be required to be accountable.
 It's not easy to pin people down because often even while presenting these ideas of Black inferiority there were some people who would then indicate these as examples really of saying, no there is equality but there are contextual conditions for in fact allocating inferiority.  So often the cases weren't clear cut but there certainly is enough information to show that within government and parastatals there was a promotion of this idea.  
 For example Dr Fick had to be restrained from visiting schools and testing all these people because he had a mania for finding these intellectually inferior Black children and there was a notice from one of his departments to not allow him to go into them anymore.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: One of the problems with that theory of course is that it excluded, it tended to exclude a large number of people from certain important opportunities and perhaps there still is that mindset amongst some people.
 Lastly Lionel, you mentioned that sometimes even progressive people within the organisation of psychology perpetuated some of these exclusionist practices. What are the subtle ways in which racism operates in liberal institutions today?

UNKNOWN: Well I think that the most blatant way in the centres of where psychology is taught is really that for a long time psychology departments would be all White psychology departments in certain universities without any consideration that that would be a problem for example.
 I remember being invited to give a talk to the Psychology Department at Stellenbosch University in 1990 and I arrived early and took a walk along the corridors and saw that the photographs of Verwoerd and these others professors who promoted racism were still on their walls and in fact started my talk to them about this fact. Needless to say I was never invited back to give a second talk that department.
 The other subtle ways is that within different professional systems it becomes comfortable to only deal professionally with your own kind.  You don't give a thought to how that might reflect in the development of your profession, especially one that largely excluded Blacks and to this day is still around about 90% White.  So not very much credence was given to the efforts that were needed in fact increase Black empowerment within psychology and also Black leadership.  The Black groupings that were formed to promote this position often found censure from both sides, from White leftwing as well as from White rightwing psychologists and I think there was far too little sensitivity and there is too little now even to the need for training Black psychologists and also to promote Black leadership within psychology.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you Lionel.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Professor Nicholas.

MS GOBODA-MADIKIZELA: Can I just read out something from the University of Natal Department of Psychology before you leave the platform.  They've sent a message to the health sector hearings where they say,
"We have discussed your invitation and are of one mind in our support of the process of self-examination in the Health Sector with regard to past policies and actions of individuals and institutions.  We look forward to the hearings having a positive impact on training and practice amongst all health professionals including psychologists.  We would be grateful if you could keep our Department informed about the hearings and any recommendations that may result from them.
 With very best wishes".

UNKNOWN: In response to that I was also curious about your messages of support, I think from Orange Free State and Potchefstroom yesterday that you mentioned because recently I had a conversation with somebody who used to lecture at Potchefstroom and he told me that his students reported him for teaching the doctrine that Blacks and Whites are equal in his department, and he was told to take it a bit easy at Potchefstroom.
 I was also invited to Orange Free State a couple of years ago and they also seemed quite comfortable with their particular status quo.  So while I think it's encouraging that this process is supported, I wish that these departments would perhaps put their money where their mouth is.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Professor.
MEDICAL SCHOOL SUBMISSIONS - WITS

CHAIRPERSON: We go on to the Medical Schools submissions, and if I can call Professor Jenkins and Professor Max Price.   Professor, for the record will you just stand and tell us who you and where you are coming from?

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  I'm Max Price, I'm the Dean of the University of Witwatersrand Faculty of Health Sciences.

UNKNOWN: I'm Trevor Jenkins head of the Department of Human Genetics at Wits and with an interest in medical ethics.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Max you're going to be presenting for the University.

UNKNOWN: I'll start. Can I clarify the time limitations.  On the programme there are three medical schools listed and do we have 15 minutes?

CHAIRPERSON: 15 minutes each.