Human Rights Violation Hearings — Empangeni — 1996-11-05

KHOZA MGOJO: come during the day to be Inkatha members.  Not that there was anything that they would do.  That was a way of demarcating the area between Inkatha and the ANC so that if you stay in a certain area you stay in that area and you belong to a certain political group.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mrs Gcabashe?

MRS GCABASHE: One question just to get some clarification with regard to the police.  Were the police in uniform on the day they came to your place so that you could differentiate them as to where they came from, whether they were KwaZulu Police or SAP Police?

WITNESS:   I wouldn't be able to identify them because at times they had this funny uniform which had funny colours - different colours.  I think it was soldiers uniforms.

MRS GCABASHE:  Some would be having blue uniforms?

WITNESS:   I am not sure as to this colour but as I'm indicating they were wearing this colour.  Their trousers were not the same.  Some were wearing these soldiers' uniforms.  Some would be wearing short shirts, blue shirts.

MRS GCABASHE:  As they were wearing these different uniforms, the white people that you saw, what type of uniform were they wearing, that is the police?

WITNESS:   They were wearing the same uniform as the black policemen and the other ones who were wearing the soldiers' uniforms were blacks and the whites would be wearing the same uniform too.

MR LYSTER: Mrs Mkwanyana, we want to thank you very much for coming here and telling us this very sad story.  It's taken you a long time to tell that story and we can see that you are still very affected by it but we thank  you for being brave enough to come and relive all those experiences and those emotions in front of this hall and in front of the television camera.  I've said this to many people before, but it's tragic that people who were meant to be there to assist and protect us, the police, in fact so often did completely the opposite there.  They assaulted and they harassed people and it's not surprising that you have the attitude towards the police that you have today.  We hope that we are moving to an era where that sort of thing is past us although we know that in many parts of KwaZulu/Natal that is not the case.  Many of those people, as Dr Mgojo has said, are still in senior positions in the police.  You have given us a couple of names of these policemen and we know those police stations.  We know the KwaMbonambi Police Station, the Sundumbili Police Station, the riot unit at Mtubatuba.  We know many, many bad policemen came from those police stations and many of them are still there and stories like this are important because they allow us to investigate the allegations that have been made and to build up evidence against those policemen.  So thank you again very much for coming in today and we wish you well.
/MR LYSTER

MR LYSTER: The next witness is Thembikile Ngubane (Tape changed.  Recording commences mid-sentence on subsequent tape with no overlap)  ... Gilbert Ngubane who died in 1993.  Can you please stand to take the oath?

THEMBILIKE NGUBANE: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

MR LYSTER: Mr Gcabashe will help you now.

MRS GCABASHE: I greet you.  I would like to thank you for coming forward before the Commission and being one of those people who are willing that their story will be heard all over the world and people who were affected, people who really helped this country to move to where we are today.  Before we start to your story, we would like you to introduce yourself.  Tell us more about your family.  If you still have your husband, you have children, all of it.

WITNESS:   My husband is late.  I have five children.  I have four daughters and one son.

MRS GCABASHE:  Can you please give us their ages?

WITNESS:   The eldest was born in 1958.  My daughter, she's now married.  Her names is Fikisiwe.  She's married.  The second-born is Thandezile.  She was born in 1960, 28th of October.  She's a teacher.  She's also married.  My third-born is a boy.  His name is Mbusiso and he was born on the 11th of December 1964.  He's working for the government.  He's a policeman.  My fourth-born is Gladness.  Gladness was born in 1970 on the 5th of December.  My last-born is Welile.

MRS GCABASHE:  And what is Gladness doing?

WITNESS:   She's a fashion designer.  My last-born is Welile and he was born in 1973 on the 31st of March.  He's still at school.  He  stopped going to school but he said he was going to go back to school next year.  He's selling clothes.  He's buying and selling clothes.

MRS GCABASHE:  What about you?  Are you working?

WITNESS:   No, I'm not working.

MRS GCABASHE:  You came here to tell us the story about the death of your husband.  Can you please relate to us what happened before 1993, before your husband was killed?  You said you are staying at Ulundi, is it true?

WITNESS:   Yes, I am staying at Ulundi but before this I was staying a Mevamhlope.

MRS GCABASHE:  Now, please tell us what was happening at that area.

WITNESS:   Where we were staying we were experiencing political clash between the ANC and IFP.

MRS GCABASHE:  Okay, before we go forward, at home at your family were you belonging to any political organisation?

WITNESS:  My children were not affiliated with any political organisation but where we were staying in that area, initially it was just IFP then everyone was an IFP member.  Then later ANC came.  When kids started to be politically active, the youth started to be active politically.  My children were not at home and Sibusiso was at college at that time so my daughters were at Ulundi.  Gladness was in Durban.  Welile was at school at Matshitsholo and my elder daughter was already married and she was at her home.  And there was no one at home so my children didn't actually know what was going on in that area.  Youth were continuously involved in political conflicts in that area.  I never knew that one day I will be sitting in front of people and talk about this thing, so I never kept dates of the things  like months and days.

MRS GCABASHE:  But here it's written on the 3rd of October, it's written on your statement, when people came.

WITNESS:   No, I think it's the 30th of October.  That's when my husband died, not the 3rd.  I'll just relate things that I've seen and I never even took notice of them that much that it will lead to the death of my husband.  Police came to my house.  They were wearing soldier's uniform and they were white police, only one black police.  And they came to my house and they told me that someone sent them there because they were told that we had guns.  And I asked them, "Who told you this?" and they didn't explain to me.  All they wanted to do was to open my house and start searching.  I told them they mustn't kick my door, they must just open and search because I knew there was no guns in my house.  And this black policeman said to me, "You must come as well while we are searching your house."

MRS GCABASHE:  When they said you must come, did they mean to you or your husband?