Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.  There is such an agreement.  I beg leave to call Mr John Mndebele who features as applicant number five.  Mr Chairman, it was my intention to lead Mr Mndebele with regard to the background.  On the brief historical background document contained in the papers before you, I see there's no such copy before the witness and I wonder if such a copy can be placed before him.  I think also it's probably necessary for me to mention at this stage, which I ought to have mentioned earlier on, what I've picked up from the bundle of papers, which we all seem to have, is the form, the application form which forms part of the Bundle A running from sixty eight (68) to pages seventy four (74), whilst it relates to a Mkhwanazi, it is not the Mkhwanazi which is applicant number four.  There is an incorrect application form in the documents before you.  I have mentioned this to the leader of the evidence and he has undertaken to ensure that the correct application form is placed before the Committee, as well as all my learned friends present here.

CHAIRPERSON: What name should the proper application be?

MR PATEL: His full names are Jabi, J-A-B-I, Aaron Mkhwanazi.  The name seems to be very similar.  It also relates to an Aaron Mkhwanazi, but it's not the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: The proper person was born on the 9th of October '67?

MR PATEL: Yes, that would be.

CHAIRPERSON: Identity number 6710095705081.

MR PATEL: Yes, that would be correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I do have the application before me.

MR PATEL: If I may then proceed with the evidence of Mr Mndebele.  I see he has the copies of the documents before him.  For the record, Mr Mndebele, could you tell the Committee what is your full name?

MR MAPOMA: Sorry, Mr Patel, we have to swear him in.

CHAIRPERSON: If I be given that chance I'll do so.  Mr Mkhwanazi, which language would you prefer to use?

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me, Chairperson.  Sorry, Chairperson.  Just for correction purposes.  I understand, sir, that you mistakenly referred to him as Mkhwanazi.  He's Mndebele.  John Mndebele.

JOHN MNDEBELE: (Sworn States)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mndebele, my apologies.  I referred to you by another name.  I'm just correcting it for the record sake.

JOHN MNDEBELE: Okay, thank you.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.  I intend to lead Mr Mndebele through the historical background which commenced on page nine  of Volume 1.  Mr Mndebele, what is your full name?

CHAIRPERSON: We do have that bit of literature before us.  I thought you had said you're going to do so briefly.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mndebele, where were you born?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I was born in Ermelo.

MR PATEL: You've lived for your entire life in the Ermelo area?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: At the time this brief historical background that is in front of you, was this prepared with your assistance?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Could you read the historical background for the Committee?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.
"In 1989 and in Wesselton, an anti-crime committee was formed on the initiative of the South African Police.  The ACC comprised mainly young members of the community and was principally lead by Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane."

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mndebele, are you comfortable with the English language or would you prefer Zulu?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Okay.  I'm not fluent in English.

CHAIRPERSON: If that be the case then ... (intervention)

JOHN MNDEBELE: That's why I prefer my home language.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, then you better lead the witness.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mndebele, I'll read to you the background statement and you can just confirm the correctness of what I am reading.
"During 1989 and in Wesselton, an anti-crime committee ..."
Which will hereinafter be referred to as the ACC
"... was formed on the initiative of the South African Police."
Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.
MR PATEL
	"The ACC comprised mainly young members of the community and was principally led by Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane."
Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.
MR PATEL
	"The ACC itself, however, within one month turned to crime and to terrorising the Wesselton community.  In addition, it was apparent that the ACC were being supported by the South African Police, the IFP, as well as the municipal authorities.  It further transpired that members of the ACC, the Black Cats were trained operatives of the IFP."
Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.
MR PATEL
	"It is not clear at what stage the ACC adopted the name of the Black Cats.  On twenty second (22nd) July 1990 and ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue.  What does the IFP stand for?  It's not very clear from this document.

MR PATEL: As it pleases.  What does the IFP stand for?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The IFP stands for Inkatha and the Black Cats.
MR PATEL
	"On twenty two (22) July 1990 and at a public meeting called by the South African National Civic Association, SANCO, which enjoyed the support of the majority of the community, a decision was taken to dissolve the Black Cats."
Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: If you turn the page
"The Black Cats, however, refused to dissolve and instead a spate of attacks on people and property ensued.  In the main, the attacks were directed at ANC members and structures.  Some of the details of which of such attacks are summarised in annexure A."
Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Now, annexure A, is it a complete list of all the killings and destruction of property?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, that's not the complete version.

MR PATEL: Who compiled annexure A?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Our secretary is the one who compiled annexure A, but he did not get the whole information.

MR SANDI: Sorry, Mr Patel.  Mr Mndebele, when you say "our secretary" who are you referring to?  Who is "we"?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I am talking about Silos Nkonyane, the one who compiled a report on what was happening.

MR SANDI: This Silos Nkonyane you've just mentioned, who's secretary is he?

JOHN MNDEBELE: He was ANC secretary.

MR SANDI: Thank you.  Proceed, Mr Patel.

MR PATEL: As it pleases the Committee.  Just for completeness sake, Mr Silos Nkonyane is the seventh (7th) applicant in this matter.  Going further to the statement, Mr Mndebele, you say
"As can be gleaned from annexure A, Wesselton was subjected to a reign of terror and that people who aligned themselves to the ANC were the prime targets."
Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.
MR PATEL
	"During July 1990 the Executive members of SANCO or the ANC, namely John Fanyana Mndebele, Nicholas Mthundisi Zwane, Jabi Aaron Mkhwanazi and Sipho Silos Nkonyane met with the late Chris Hani with a view to obtaining directions as to what was to be done."
Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Who is John Fanyana Mndebele?

JOHN MNDEBELE: It's me.

MR PATEL: Yes.  The other people mentioned here, Nicholas Zwane, Jabi Mkhwanazi and Sipho Silos Nkonyane, are they also Africans before this Committee today?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Ja.
MR PATEL
	"They were advised to return to Wesselton and set up self-defence units to arm themselves and members of the organisation so as to protect ANC members and structures as well as the community at large.  In addition, they were advised to do what was necessary to quell the violence."
Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.
MR PATEL
	"This was in any event the policy of the ANC as broadcasted on Radio Freedom by the late President Tambo as far back as 1996 when he called on the people to multiply the formation of people's defence militia everywhere so as to meet more effectively the assault by the enemy's armed forces and the treacherous vigilantes and impis which they employed.  Our people's armies strengthened by the emerging popular militia must intensify and spread its armed actions across the country."
Do you confirm that?