Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I mentioned that I had completed standard eight and was supposed to go to standard nine at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini is the situation that you finished standard eight, you then became a fulltime member of the youth league without going to school and then you were recruited into the police? Or am I wrong?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Let me explain it this way chairperson. In 1984 I was attending school and Phezulu High School in Mpumalanga doing standard eight. In 1985 I was supposed to do standard nine and I could not do so. Then I became actively involved in these activities. My situation at home was not conducive to me continuing with my education.

MR NGUBANE: But you then joined the KwaZulu police and then you were recruited to join the group that went to Caprivi for training. Is that correct?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now we learned that at Caprivi you were receiving a monthly amount. In your affidavit you say it is R900 but you have just said it was round about R400. Can you recall the exact salary that you were receiving at Caprivi?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I think a mistake was made. We received an amount of R400.

MR NGUBANE: The training at Caprivi that you received was of an offensive nature is that correct?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct?

MR NGUBANE: How many were you in that group that did offensive training?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I think we were between 50 and a 100.

CHAIRPERSON: Please be quiet.

MR NGUBANE: Now we have heard reports from the media, from the hierarchy of the IFP to the effect that the people that were sent to Caprivi were the people who were only to undergo training for VIP protection, that is the protection of the KwaZulu government officials, Izinkosis and the indunas. What would be your comment to that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Chairperson I would say they are telling lies. How would you train a person in the use of such weapons and explosive if they were going to come back and guard a chief or Nkosi. I think what they are telling is pure lies. We were not told that we were going to guard ama nkosi.

MR NGUBANE: (...indistinct) specifically mentioned to you that you were going to be trained there and come back so that you could wipe out the ANC and the UDF?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Chairperson it was mentioned by example. For example they would put a target and ask you to hit (...indistinct) They would say: "Here is Oliver Tambo." That would be the target which was obvious that what was expected of us was to return to attack the ANC.

MR NGUBANE: (...indistinct) training there were certain structures that were put and they were named this is Oliver Tambo, this is so and so and you would shoot at those structures?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: As I have explained they would put a target there and say: "Here is Oliver Tambo, here is Tabo Mbeki." Those would be your targets. It then became clear in your mind who you were going to be fighting.

MR NGUBANE: (...indistinct) for you to remember all the people who were not residing in this area but do you recall by any chance during your discussion when the name of one Mr Arendo Ndlovu, who was the lecturer at the University of Zululand was mentioned as being one of the targets?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I do not remember.

MR NGUBANE: And at Paul Ngama's shebeen you say you attacked there and there were people killed. In your affidavit you say that there were ten people killed. Do you recall making that statement?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I remember quite well. As I am saying that some of the things we wrote after a long time of tiring statement writing.

MR NGUBANE: (...indistinct) or there could have been more than ten people that were killed?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: As I have already stated I am not sure about that.

MR NGUBANE: Now in incident number four, relating to Npthal Dlamini you mention one Victor Buthelesi. Was he a member of the KwaZulu police force?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct. He was stationed at Esikoweni.

MR NGUBANE: You mention that he was the one who was going to show you the house of Napthal Nxumalo? Do you know what qualified him to point out this house?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Victor Buthelesi was the person who knew Napthal very well.

MR NGUBANE: (...indistinct) Victor Buthelezi a member of the hit squad or he was just an ordinary KwaZulu police which worked hand in hand with the hit squad members?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: He was just an ordinary police working hand in hand with us.

MR NGUBANE: At the time of your arrest do you know where his whereabouts were?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I was not arrested.

MR NGUBANE: At the time of you being put on the witness protection scheme did you know where his whereabouts were?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: When I left Esikoweni he was still working at the police station there. I do not know now.

MR NGUBANE: Is there a time when you were operating in Esikoweni when you worked with the people known as " Isinkabe" from Johannesburg?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I do remember them but I did not work with them.

MR NGUBANE: At paragraph 398 of your affidavit where you refer to the Eshowe incident, sorry page 398 where you refer to the Eshowe incident you say last paragraph
"We left for Eshowe at about fourteen hours. On our arrival at Eshowe we stopped a way from the hospital. Ijoni and myself proceeded to the hospital where we identified the target who was busy working. After confirming that we returned to the vehicle and proceeded into the town of Eshowe. There were too many people and police present. Our intention was to have something to eat as we were unable to execute our mission. A certain discussion arose."
Now you have testified that you had targeted a security officer and a nurse. Now which target are you talking about in this paragraph that was working?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Here there was a security at the gate and a male nurse who was working in the hospital. Those were the targets.

MR NGUBANE: (...indistinct) those were the targets, those two people were the targets. Is that correct?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Together with Nate Gumede.

MR NGUBANE: You say a certain discussion then arose. Was that discussion relevant to these targets or it was just an irrelevant discussion when you were at the shop now?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson perhaps I can assist because the reference says certain discussion arose and then the next paragraph then deals with the discussion. Perhaps that would assist my learned friend unless he seeks further clarity.

CHAIRPERSON: I think let the witness answer and we can see what he says. Mr Dlamini if you take a look at your affidavit at page 398? Have you got that, page 398? Where is says "Incident seven (7)," do you see that? It says: "Incident seven (7)," there is a heading.

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) that heading the last words before that heading it says, " a certain discussion then arose." Now Mr Ngubane wants to know can you remember what that discussion was about?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: We discussed the three targets. We were aware of our first target there were many police and we decided to proceed to Durban and take Nate Gumede. That is what we were discussing.

MR NGUBANE: (...indistinct) the killing of Nate Gumede did you report this incident of killing Nate Gumede to any member of the IFP leadership either at the local level or the highest hierarchy?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I think that the person who was supposed to report this was Nthena Mkhize because he was the one who was in charge of us. I did not report anything.

MR NGUBANE: Didn't you return to Mrs Mbuyazi's house after this incident?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes we did. We went back to Mrs Mbuyazi's place. They talked with her as usual but I was not part of that. And then it was reported how we fared but I was not within earshot.

MR NGUBANE: ...