Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-13

SIPHO JEREMIAH MABASO: There's absolutely no-one of them who approached me.

MR PURSHOTAM: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.

MR WILKINSON: Mr Mabaso, did you instruct your attorney, Mr Purshotam, that if the applicants consented to Judgment - this is now in the civil case - then you would not oppose the application for amnesty?

SIPHO JEREMIAH MABASO: What I told my attorney - I wanted my attorney to get me some compensation because I had boarded a bus - I was a law abiding citizen - I had paid to board the bus.   Now I wanted my attorney to approach insurance companies so that  they could compensate us.  Even if  I can get compensation, I don't care, I don't
want them to be forgiven because they did this intentionally.  Because now, they cannot bring me back to a state where I was before.

MR WILKINSON: Just a quick indulgence your honour.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, in fairness to the applicants, I have handed to my learned friend, a copy of a statement which this witness made in regard more particularly to his attitude towards amnesty which doesn't quite fit in with what he's saying.  And I think it's was only fair - my duty is to bring out everything in all the truth, to let them have sight of that document so ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR WILKINSON: Mr Chairman?

MR BRINK: Unfortunately, I didn't make copies ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker isn't near a microphone.

MR PURSHOTAM: Mr Chairman, we haven't had sight of those statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it may a convenient stage to take a short adjournment so that this matter can be resolved amongst yourselves and copies made available to everybody concerned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PURSHOTAM: ...[inaudible] Constance Msoni.

CONSTANCE MSONI: (sworn states)

MR PURSHOTAM: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Are you the mother of Duke Msoni who was the driver of the bus on this particular day?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes, I'm the mother.

MR PURSHOTAM: What was his age at that time?

CONSTANCE MSONI: At that time, I think it was about 24 or 25.

MR PURSHOTAM: Did you identify his body after the incident?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I beg yours?

MR PURSHOTAM: Did you identify his body at the mortuary?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes.

MR PURSHOTAM: How had he died?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I don't know because by the time, I was at home.  So, they came home to get me to go to the work and I went there.  They told me that my son is at the hospital - King Edward.  I went there to King Edward and we didn't find him so we went to a lot of hospitals - was looking, keep looking - didn't get him.  At last, I think about two days, we found him at Addington.

MR PURSHOTAM: Yes, what I'm trying to ask is, did he die as a result of being shot on this particular day?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I think so.

MR PURSHOTAM: Did he support you while he worked?

CONSTANCE MSONI: He was doing everything, supporting me, supporting the kids.

MR PURSHOTAM: How many children did he have?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Two, about two.

MR PURSHOTAM: And what are their ages?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Age?

MR PURSHOTAM: Age yes, age?

CONSTANCE MSONI: One is 1988, 4 August, no, April and one '84 - one - the late one - the last one is '88.

MR PURSHOTAM: And who is supporting them at the moment?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I am supporting and no husband.

MR PURSHOTAM: How do you support yourself?

CONSTANCE MSONI: At the moment I'm working but I'm going to leave job now.

MR PURSHOTAM: What's the reason for you leaving your job?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Because I'm not feeling well.

MR PURSHOTAM: What is your attitude to the application for amnesty made by the applicants?  Do you think they should be given amnesty?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I will request someone to help me.  I don't want to express myself in Zulu - I don't want to make a mistake.

MR PURSHOTAM: Thank you very  much.  I'll repeat the question which I put to you before this.  Do you think that the applicants should be granted amnesty by this Committee?  What is your attitude towards those applications?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I don't know.

MR PURSHOTAM: Should I repeat?

INTERPRETER: She can hear.  Yes, you can repeat the questions.

MR PURSHOTAM: The question is, do you think that the applicants should be granted amnesty?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Absolutely not.

MR PURSHOTAM: Why do you say that?

CONSTANCE MSONI: The manner in which one of them expressed himself - there was absolutely no remorse on his part.  He didn't even realise that he had done something bad.  He talked as if he was - he had an intention.  There was absolutely no justification for his action because they will go and stay with their families whereas we have lost our sons and daughters and they will never come back.

MR PURSHOTAM: Have any of them approached you to ask for forgiveness?

CONSTANCE MSONI: No, no-one came to me.

MR PURSHOTAM: That is all, Mr Chairman.

CONSTANCE MSONI: I'm sorry, I've got something to say.

MR PURSHOTAM: Yes, please go ahead.

CONSTANCE MSONI: The main thing, the main thing.  I've got a house, a subsidy house.  By the time I was trying to transfer, these people killed my son so I'm suffering now paying the bank and doing everything at home.

MR PURSHOTAM: Is there anything else that you wish to communicate to the Committee?

CONSTANCE MSONI: No English translation.

MR PURSHOTAM: Thank you very much Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PURSHOTAM

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions to be put to this ...[inaudible]

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR WILKINSON: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILKINSON

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

ADV DE JAGER: How many children have you got?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I beg yours?

ADV DE JAGER: How many children have you got?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I've got three.

ADV DE JAGER: Three children.  What are their ages?

CONSTANCE MSONI: What are their?

ADV DE JAGER: How old are they?

CONSTANCE MSONI: One is 20, one 31 and another one is 25 and the last one is 16.

ADV DE JAGER: That's apart from the one that's been killed?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you married?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Widow.

ADV DE JAGER: Widow?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: The son that's been killed, was he married?

CONSTANCE MSONI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: He had no children or did he have children?

CONSTANCE MSONI: He was helping me.

ADV DE JAGER: The deceased, did he have any children?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Three?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: The eldest?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I beg yours?

ADV DE JAGER: The oldest one?

CONSTANCE MSONI: The eldest one?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, how old his he?

CONSTANCE MSONI: I think about - I think 13 now.

ADV DE JAGER: 13?

CONSTANCE MSONI: 13.

ADV DE JAGER: 18?

CHAIRPERSON: 13.

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, 13.

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can that be right?  I thought he was - your son who died was about 24 or 25 years old.

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that his eldest child is now 13 years old.

CONSTANCE MSONI: No, I'm making a mistake.  I think 10, if I'm not making a mistake -  10 or 9.

CHAIRPERSON: You say the eldest child is about 10 now?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other children?

CONSTANCE MSONI: And the eldest.  The last one because he's too young, he's doing first year - he's about seven.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mrs Msoni, are you referring to the children that you stated as having been born in 1988 and 1984, are those the children of the deceased?

CONSTANCE MSONI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: I'm sorry but I think there may be a mistake because in 1984, your son would have been 14 years of age.

CHAIRPERSON: 18.  He was 24/25 when he died when he died, wasn't he?

ADV DE JAGER: In 1990?

CHAIRPERSON: In 1990.

ADV DE JAGER: 18.  Thank you.