Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

MR DUKADA: Now what I'm asking you, at what stage did you become to know about Batandwa?  What was the reason for him to be killed or arrested?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I never got to know the reason, that's why I'm saying I did not ask because I realised that a trained person was going to be arrested.

MR DUKADA: So all what you know until Batandwa was first at his home and killed, all what you knew was that there was a terrorist by the name of Batandwa Ndondo to be arrested at Xala?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: ... [no English translation]

MR DUKADA: All what you knew from Barkly to Xala, you understood that there was a terrorist by the name of Batandwa Ndondo, who was going to be fetched at Xala?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: You did not know what he had done wrong?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I did not know, I was not told.

MR DUKADA: Not even bother to ask what he had done?  I'm talking to you now as a member of the underground unit.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I did not ask.

MR DUKADA: So you arrived at Xala.  Why, you know, you say that you fabricated the version that police at Xala on arrival told you that there had been instructions from Umtata to arrest Ndondo, you say you fabricated that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes that was a fabrication.

MR DUKADA: Now if it was an ordinary arrest of a political offender, was it necessary to have askaris?  We are not talking about a man who was a danger to the society or the Government then we are talking about a man who was simply accused of having undergone a training at Lesotho.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Can you please repeat.

MR DUKADA: Was it necessary to have a contingent of yourself and askaris in a tinted window mini bus when effecting arrest of Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Because I did not know the way of the modus operandi as there were also askaris, I did not even know that I was moving around with askaris.  I got to know about it along the way.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just clarify one thing.  I gather that Braam Moss or Captain Moss informed you on the morning that you were going to arrest Batandwa Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not enquire from him what for, you simply assumed that Batandwa Ndondo was one of the persons that you would be looking for, a terrorist?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So, and that was the purpose of going to Xala, to arrest him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In your statement to which your attention has been drawn by Counsel there is a portion which indicates that you were instructed to go and arrest Batandwa in connection with terrorism, do you see that portion?  The very first paragraph, I think it's the second sentence of the second paragraph.  Is that right?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I understand from you that that is a fabrication, that's not true.  What stands in that statement is not true?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As I have said some of the sections.

CHAIRPERSON: Forget about other portions, I'm just asking you about this portion that I have just directed your attention to?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: This is part of the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the next sentence which says, "we were told by the members of the Xala security branch that they have also received instructions to, from the security branch in Umtata to arrest Batandwa Ndondo, is that true?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, that was not true as it is part of the effort to cover up.  But it is true that the instruction came from Braam Moss that we must go and arrest Batandwa.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was a cover up for you to have made, to have stated in your statement that the Xala Police officers also informed you that they had also received instructions to go and arrest the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That was not so.

CHAIRPERSON: It was a cover up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what it was intended to cover up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The usual speech was they were trying to make the case okay.  I did not know how they would make the case okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just think of a reason how that would have covered up the fact that you were going there to arrest the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Can you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: How that would have covered up the fact that you had gone to Xala to arrest the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, you were told by Captain Moss or Braam Moss that you were going to Xala in order to arrest the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say, it is a cover up for you to state in your statement that the police in Xala were also looking for the deceased on the instructions of Umtata Police?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now, what I want to know from your own knowledge, what was intended to be covered by that statement?  Why was it necessary to say that if it wasn't true?  Do you know?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can only say they were preparing this for the head office and the security members.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you were already, you had already been given instructions to go and arrest the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And these instructions came from.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Braam Moss.

CHAIRPERSON: From Moss.  Did Moss indicate where those instructions had come from?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No he did not say.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just before we actually get into the main event Mr Dandala.  Can you explain, why did you have to sleep at Barkly East for simply arresting a man who was at Xala?  What planning took place?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Please repeat the question?

MR DUKADA: Why did you have to sleep at Barkly East if you were going to do a simple thing to arrest Ndondo at Xala?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was because Colonel Booi had said I must go to Barkly East and assist the South African Police.  I then got it at Barkly East that we had to go and arrest Batandwa.

MR DUKADA: Yes but at Barkly East, it appears to this Committee that it was merely your sleeping place.  According to your evidence nothing whatsoever was discussed about Ndondo.  Do you know why you had to sleep at Barkly East?  To drive from Umtata, sleep at Barkly East, the following day you go and do this simple thing that is an arrest?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I do not know the reason.

MR DUKADA: Did you ask Braam Moss or any other policemen on the 23rd September 1985 why are we supposed to sleep here?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.  I don't remember asking any other person.

MR DUKADA: Do you agree with me Mr Dandala that there was no need for engaging askaris and yourself as well if all what had to be done was to arrest Ndondo only?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Do you agree with me, there was no need for that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Now can you tell the Committee truly why the askaris were engaged to do a simple thing, that is to effect an arrest, which could have been done by the Xala Police?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I would not be able to tell because I did not know the reason why askaris had to be brought in.

MR DUKADA: Even today you don't know why askaris were engaged in the operation?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Are you referring to incidents relating to that day or are you referring generally?

MR DUKADA: I'm referring to any day Mr Dandala.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I got to know about the reasons later that askaris and I got to know about it that they are the people who point people out, that there is a person and that person be arrested and they are not instrumental in arresting people.  That's how I got to know about it.