Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR STANDER: Can I just try to find that out from the witness?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, please.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Can I please answer this Sir?   M'Lord, I want to
answer.

CHAIRPERSON: You had said you were not going to cross-examine this witness hadn't you?  And I understood you were now putting a few questions arising out of what had been said.  It appears you have now embarked on a complete cross-examination.

MR STANDER: I am of the opinion that this is due to my oversight.  Can I continue along this way?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't this all argument that you're putting?

MR STANDER: It deals with the credibility, not only of this witness but also of those to come.

CHAIRPERSON: He has said he never saw anyone being assaulted, he never heard anything.

MR STANDER: I heard that but the problem that I have is that one after the other they have testified as to how they were assaulted there and surely there should have someone who saw or heard, and it is along this way that I want to follow.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have the evidence of several witnesses on a point, this witness says something different.

MR STANDER: I can I put this one more question to this witness please?
	Did you ever see any blood against the walls of Violent Street?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I never saw blood.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

CHAIRPERSON: What is this - is this building still there?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, it's not far from here M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us where your office was.  If you wanted to go to the lift, did you have to go down Violent Street or not?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: It's at the corner of Aliwal and Fountain, you get
into the lift and then you go up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but to get to your office on the 5th floor, do you go along Violent Street or would go along some other passage?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: You take a lift up to the 5th floor, you ring the bell, then you see Violent, you see it down there.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you go along Violent Street and then turn into another passage to get to your office?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: No, it was a corner and when you get in there's a door, you don't get into Violent Street, you just go straight and you go to my office.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't necessarily go to Violent Street every day, some days you'd go straight to your office?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I went straight to my office.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: No re-examination Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was there a kitchen on the 5th floor?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, there was a kitchen where we would drink tea.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How far was your office from the kitchen?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I would walk up to that camera man and turn, go down until where this building ends up, it is a distance.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The Keiwha High School - I hope I'm reading it correctly, did you know this school?   Keiwha High School, did you know it?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: It's in Botshabelo, I think it is Kowhelo,  This school is in Botshabelo.  I since left Botshabelo in 1985, I do not remember very well but I think it's a school in Botshabelo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you recall that on an occasion a number of students belonging to that school were detained during a combined operation with yourselves in Botshabelo, assisted by members of the security branch in Bloemfontein?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: We arrested many students in different schools, maybe Kowhelo is one of them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Try to remember whether you also arrested students form Kowhelo High School.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Which year are you referring to Sir?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't know, whatever year.  Don't worry about the year, just try to think.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not remember but I know we arrested many students but I do not remember about Kowhelo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: On this occasion that I'm referring to, we were told about 30 to 35 of them were arrested, about 40 to 45 of them which is quite a big group, don't you remember that?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Maybe I was not there.  Maybe those things happened when I was already here, I do not remember.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, according to the statement I have it was while you were in fact at Botshabelo.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I said I remember we arrested many students.  When you arrive there are people special who would work with them, maybe I was not in that group.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You see, according to this statement it was these students from this particular school who were assaulted, largely also as a result of your instructions.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I did not give instructions, I worked under people and there have never been people assaulted in my presence.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I would have thought that if you are involved in an operation in which students of a particular school, a school that you know or you knew, you would remember.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, I would remember because I know we arrested many students in schools but it is difficult to know the number because after arresting them, some would be put there, some there and the investigator of the case would bring them together the following day and it would be difficult to know the number.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sergeant Smith, was there a Sergeant Smith based at Botshabelo with you?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not know him.   I worked with Kotze, van den Berg and Paddy, we were four.  I do not know after I left.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Constable Lesale?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I have never worked with him in Botshabelo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But you knew him?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: A lot.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was he a member of the security branch?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were you in the security branch in Botshabelo when you were there?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: We were four.  Can you repeat your question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's what you ...[intervention]

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Sir, can you repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked you how many you were in the security branch in Botshabelo because I thought you had already said four.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, we were four.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were a very small unit?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: It was a newly opened area.

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't carry out large operations, you might give the information to enable other people to do it, is that so?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  The evidence was that this gentleman carries on a business now in Bloemfontein wasn't it?  He will be available if required, so is there any objection to him being released at this stage?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman yes, I was going to direct a request to you that the witnesses be excused because as we've shown throughout, we can get hold of them it's at all necessary for them to be recalled but they do have their lives.
	I have one witness for example that has got to write exams from tomorrow onwards and he's been hoping that he might be finished but he will only be available Monday or Tuesday, we do have a few strategic problems here.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, but this one, he's no longer a policeman, it's his own time and money that is being ...
WITNESS EXCUSED