Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

MR MALAN: I think there's a problem here with the interpreting and the use of Afrikaans.  I heard you saying that the last sentence was, the main purpose was your awareness of what happened.  So in other words it was somebody else's agenda and for you it was said that you must do protection but it had nothing to do with that.  But it seemed to you that the main purpose of the gathering was the bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did anybody tell you?  That is the question, did anybody tell you that this was the purpose of the gathering?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The bombs?  No.  That I assumed.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR BRACHER: At the game farm you built the radio masts or poles or you erected them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, it was done by Jannie Kruger.

MR BRACHER: Were you in contact with head office?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was not busy or I had nothing to do with the radio.  I do not know what was discussed but Jannie Kruger when I was there and tried to contact head office.  I went to the turret and made some changes.

MR BRACHER: Was there contact with head office?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MR BRACHER: Bundle A that was submitted, Page 13, there's an article I think from Die Beeld where your headquarters on the 22nd April, they said the following.  If you look at the first article, it's the seventh paragraph, Mr Rundle, Mr Fred Rundle, a member of the AWB's executive council in the seventh paragraph he said,
"We are not planning to act aggressively.  If our people are attacked, we will retaliate with all the powers within the AWB."
Three lines afterwards,
"No, we will not disrupt the election.  What can we do to that, physically stop the people to get to the voting polls.  We will not do it because we are not kaffirs."
Can you see that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, I can see it.

MR BRACHER: That was the policy of the AWB on the 22nd April.  Did you know that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I did not.

MR BRACHER: Did you ever ask, you as a commandant, what the policy was or the current policy when you planted these bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I did not.  I would expect that the higher officers who were present there had to convey this to us.  And that Rundle is a newspaper person, he was not involved with us.

MR BRACHER: But before you sent people to go and plant bombs, did you ask what the policy was of the leader?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.  How can I enquire if the officers sit there in the presence where the things were discussed?

MR BRACHER: The officers, did they never say to you or in front of you that you must go and bomb innocent people?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: They will not say it, if they give orders or instructions to plant bombs.

MR BRACHER: Do you personally know of any specific order of the leadership of the AWB that car bombs must be used to kill innocent people?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Officers were present when these things were discussed.

MR BRACHER: The car bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, not the car bombs.

MR BRACHER: I'm talking about the car bomb, forget about the pipe bomb.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I did not know about the car bomb.

MR BRACHER: Do you personally know of any specific order of the AWB leadership that car bombs, as far as you know, Barnard did not have a rank within the AWB, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I did not know what rank he had.

MR BRACHER: If he had a rank.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He had to have a rank but I did not know what rank.

MR BRACHER: Why did he have to have a rank if he did not have a uniform on?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Because he had close contact with headquarters, with the leader of the AWB and no one worked there if they were not an officer.

MR BRACHER: How do you know that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That was confidential information, not just anybody can work there.

MR BRACHER: Why would you then need a rank to work in an office.  That was his evidence.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I cannot give you an answer regarding that but Cliffie Barnard, you cannot say anything about him, he's a secretive person.  It is difficult to place him.

MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRACHER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie you were fairly high up in the ranks of the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As it was put to you, you were third in this rank order, is that not correct?  First you've got the Brigadier.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, Chairperson then the Colonel.

CHAIRPERSON: First you've got the Brigadier then the Colonel, then the commandant?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were a commandant?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I knew a lot about training.

CHAIRPERSON: No, listen to the question.  Why couldn't you find out anything about the people with a higher rank?  What was going on?  Was there a change in policy or what was going on?  You were part of a meeting of the higher officers that was before they used the pipe bombs.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, order groups were held where things were also discussed where we were not allowed.

CHAIRPERSON: But in this meeting where you were, did they mention the pipe bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes where I was present, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you in your capacity as commandant asked what is going on?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Because in that evening when the pipe bombs were discussed, it was said that we must disrupt the election, we must create chaos.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were asked a while ago, why didn't you find out.  And I did not understand your answer very well that is why I'm asking.  As a commandant did you not think that you could ask questions?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: You are not allowed to, you cannot question instructions from a commander above you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not saying that you must question it.  You must just find out what's going on.  Could you not do it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The message was already conveyed that the election must be stopped and that chaos must be created amongst the people.

MS BOSMAN: Mr Fourie can you just indicate, at that meeting of the officers, that so-called first meeting, how many people were there which had a rank higher than yours?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Three.

MS BOSMAN: Who were they?  Their ranks?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Well I knew about Brigadier Leon van der Merwe, General Nico Prinsloo and Koper, I did not know what his rank was, that is Myburgh who also worked at head office.

MS BOSMAN: Did you not know what Myburgh's rank was?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I haven't asked him even up to now.

MS BOSMAN: You do not know at all what his rank is?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Up to the present, no.

MS BOSMAN: So how did you know that he was above you?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Why would he then give commands in the presence of the others?  I did not know anything about his rank.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just a few questions.  Mr Fourie, did you have the authority to, for example break up that camp or to tell the men there, "go home"?  Could you take that decision?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson, I would not dare it.

MR PRIOR: Who would have to give you that kind of instruction or order to break up camp?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe.  It would then be conveyed by Nico Prinsloo.  It had to come from him.  If I did it I could have been reprimanded for it.

MR PRIOR: I would just like your comment.  According to Page 19 of bundle 2, I can see in the list there, ammunition, weapons, that was confiscated by the Police.  Nine parachutes were also confiscated.  Did you have any knowledge about the parachutes on this farm?