Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I started to be familiar with the politics of the PAC in 1984 and if you go through to history, when they arrived in 1652, that year there was war between the Africans and the Settlers, and one of the kings of the Africans was killed in one of those wars.

MR LAX: Yes, we've heard all of that, but are you saying part of your political training was that you were taught that the white man was an enemy from the moment he settled in the country?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: And, there was in your mind, was there no room for the white man in South Africa and Azania?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I mean if you are a visitor, you have to ask the occupants of the house ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Do you understand my question?  In your mind was there any room for the white man in your Azania?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They give themselves a room without the occupants of the house.

MR LAX: Do you want to answer the question?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Do you want to repeat it again?

MR LAX: The question is quite simple, and really you are avoiding the question with your quite clever answer, but it's a very simple question.  Is there room for white people in South Africa in terms of your philosophy?  Yes or no?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At that stage ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Not at that stage, at any stage.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Whether there is a room for whites ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Even now, do you think that white people are legitimately in this country or not?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As long as they recognise themselves as whites and as oppressors, then there is no room for them.

MR LAX: So, was your training that all white people were oppressors?  It that what you were taught by you, your leaders and your instructors?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It goes further than that, that there will be those so-called whites who want to associate themselves with the cause of the oppressed people ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Answer my question please, Mr Dolo, then we will finish this matter very quickly ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Sorry, he is trying to answer your question, he is saying there would be some whites who would identify themselves, let him finish.  Who would identify themselves with the African people and their struggles, carry on, finish it.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We were warned about, against those people, that they were there only to direct our struggle and to thwart it and to make sure that we didn't achieve our just objectives of a genuine liberation.

MR LAX: So any white person who showed any sympathy for the black people was simply a charlatan who was trying to undo, derail your struggle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It think that it the right word, a Charlatan.

MR LAX: So, in other words, all white people, whatever they, all white people, even those who appeared to oppose the apartheid regime, were also regarded as the enemy of the African people, is that correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: It might surprise you to know that there were a number of white members of the PAC, even one of APLA.  How was that possible on your, the theory you have just said to us?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I didn't get it.

MR LAX: Well, we're saying to you there are white members of the PAC, there are white members, and were white members of APLA.  Your High Command told us about that when they made a submission to us.  On your version that is absolutely not possible.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was not aware of that.

MR LAX: Your instructions during 1992 to engage the white man, or the white Settlers as you put it, that came before the year of the Storm, the Great Storm, which was proclaimed in 1993, is that correct?  I just want to understand you.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Repeat is again.

MR LAX: Your instructions to engage, in other words attack and kill, the white man wherever you might find him, that was the policy or the instructions you were given by your APLA Commanders before the year of the Great Storm that was announced in 1993.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: You were versed in the 15 rules or 15 aspects of discipline of the, of APLA, is that correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Did you know them all?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: If you can recall them, you will ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, please just come a bit closer to the microphone, again you are leaning right back.  We can't hear you.  Thanks.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: You were talking about 15 rules?

MR LAX: The 15 points of attention, as they were called.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Yes, were you familiar before the attack in November 1992 with all these rules, or points of attention?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I was familiar.

ADV SANDI: Should one understand you to say that when you were trained, where those 15 rules incorporated with the main point of this training?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They were part of the training.

MR LAX: Was there any special reference to captives or people that have captured, or people in your charge?  Were they to be treated in any specific way?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We were not subscribed to this Geneva agreement whereby there would be prisoners of war and they would be given such treatment.  We never abided to that.

MR LAX: Were you actually instructed not to take prisoners?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Those were my orders.

MR LAX: Did you hear of any commands or Comrades being given to take prisoners?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Repeat again.

MR LAX: Did you ever hear of any commands given by APLA High Command to actually take prisoners?  Let's say for interrogation purposes?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I know we do interrogations.

MR LAX: Of white people?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: People would be captured and be interrogated.

MR LAX: Did you ever capture people?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: On myself, I never captured a white person interrogating.

MR LAX: But you know of instances where that was done?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I take it that such things happened.

MR LAX: Do you just accept that it happened, or do you know of any incidents where that happened?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't have any specific incident.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Any, if you are taking property from the general population, and I am referring specifically to the black population, is there any particular way that you have to conduct yourselves?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Can you maybe just mention to the Committee how did you, how were you to go about obtaining property from the black population?  If you had to use it for your purposes?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't get you.  You talk of a property that we have to get it from the community.

MR LAX: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: What?

MR LAX: Well, for example a motor vehicle or money or food or clothing.  Was there any specific way that you had to approach the population or the public in order to acquire that property that you wanted?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It goes with the environment to find the stuff you need.  It will be governed by the terrain what conduct you applied.

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't year the first part of your answer.  Can you just repeat that?  Now you are sitting a bit too close to that microphone, I'm sorry.  That's, thanks.  Just repeat that again.  I couldn't, it was a bit distorted in my earphones.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I am asking my lawyer what did I say.

MR LAX: Let me help you with the question.  The question was, how were you to go about getting people to assist you with property or material, assets or vehicles, whatever it might be, in terms of those points of attention?  The specifics in that points of attention, directing you as to what you should do, and how you should treat fellow black people if you needed to use them for anything or use anything of theirs.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think I say it would be governed by the terrain.