Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-11

MR GLADLA: Yes, we've got a few questions we'd like to ask the witness, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Khumalo, you told this Committee earlier this morning that you were instructed by JP Opperman to do reconnaissance at Victor Ntuli's house, is that correct?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, it is so.

MR GLADLA: What were your specific instructions?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gladla, I didn't catch the question, if you could just repeat it please.

MR GLADLA: ...[inaudible]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Your mike is off.

MR GLADLA: Okay, Mr Khumalo, what were your specific instructions?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: The specific instructions were that we should go there and establish the location of the house and establish that if the house is attacked, what could be the obstacles and also the people who were staying there and if there are people who are staying there, how many there were because there was information that at times comrades could come in that place and we should actually establish if that is the case.

MR GLADLA: So after you did that reconnaissance did you report back to Mr JP Opperman?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, it is like that.

MR GLADLA: Did you also convey to Mr Opperman that there were children and women who were staying at that particular homestead?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, I did.

MR GLADLA: And what was the policy regarding the killing of children and women?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Well I don't know which policy he used because I just gave him a report and then I just left everything up to him to decide.  He is the one who took a decision thereafter, under which conditions and policies I wouldn't know and I may not say.

MR GLADLA: And what was the political affiliation of the occupants of the homestead, did you establish that?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: The boy there like Victor Ntuli was a leader of the kwaMakutha Youth League and in that place the rest, that the comrades used to meet there and toyi-toyi there and leave that place and go toyi-toying and we've actually seen them.  It was the house of the UDF.

MR GLADLA: Okay, thanks.  No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GLADLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Stewart, do you have any re-examination?

MR STEWART: I don't Mr Chairperson, save for this one aspect of the record which I'd like to clear up but that we can sort out tomorrow.  I'm sure it may not involve any re-examination at all.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  With regard to that question of the trial record, we will leave that in abeyance until tomorrow and then if you and Mr Hewitt after taking a look at the record arrive at some agreement, we will just put it on record here, if not the matter can be further pursued at that stage, thank you.
	Ms Khampepe, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Khumalo, I want you to give us a picture of how the general instructions were given to you, when and how.  I still don't have a clear picture in my mind with regard to that.  When were you made to understand that you were given general instructions to launch indiscriminate attacks on UDF members, that's the first question, and by whom were you made to understand that you could do that?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: I will start by saying that there was early in 1998, in January, when we were going to Matikulu just before we went to Koeberg, there was a meeting whereby Madlanduna was present and there were also group commanders of Caprivi.
	A decision was taken there that because the war is big now and the ...[indistinct] army or war, we wouldn't be able to be told or to be contacted all the time by our commanders.  In that way, because we are trained, wherever you are you must assess the situation and do accordingly or use your own discretion.  Maybe because there is no contract at times because the war or the army is too severe and you can't just leave at that particular point in time and just leave because your commander is not there.  
	You can't actually leave the war in the middle of the war and just do likewise, being present.  And there are other meetings, although they were not big meetings, whereby Madlanduna was not available to tell.  At times we would phone him and tell him that we are actually ...[indistinct] there and he would just say: "Use your own discretion".  Those are the times that I'm referring to whereby these things happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying therefore that the person who gave you general instructions to use your discretion in launching indiscriminate attacks was Mr Luthule?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, that is what I mean.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And is it your evidence that the people who were to use their discretion in carrying out these general instructions were the people who were present at that pre-Koeberg meeting in 1988?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: ...[no English translation]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who was present at that meeting?  I heard you referring to yourself and group commanders, what do you mean by group commanders?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: ...[no English translation]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you one of the group commanders?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, I was just part of the group, not the group leader.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is it your understanding and your evidence before this Commission that other Caprivians also were made to believe that they could carry out unlawful or what was perceived to then be lawful actions, for political ...[indistinct] or were selected people to carry out those general instructions?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, there were no specific people that were actually chosen to do that other than the Caprivian people, all of them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now with regard Mrs Xhaba's attack, you say that you were advised by Mr Bongo or Bongo is the first name, I can't recall, but you were advised by a certain Bongo about Mrs Xhaba's activities within the UDF.

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, Bongo Nsomi is the one who actually gave me information.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And Bongo Nsomi was also a Caprivian was he not?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, he was also from the Caprivi.

SISI KHAMPEPE: He also would have been able to carry out such general instructions as you were able to, as a Caprivian too?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, he could have done it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now why was it necessary for him to advise you about Mrs Xhaba's activities when he also could have carried out the general instructions as he understood them to be, by executing Mrs Xhaba?  Why was it necessary for him to tell you and for you to take that decision?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Bongo was just staying in the stronghold of comrades so most of the time he was actually supposed to lie down and not be active openly so as to actually get information from the UDF stronghold because he could actually go into the shebeens where the UDF people were drinking.
	If he was involved openly, that could be dangerous and then we wouldn't be able to get more information from across because his cover will be blown.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you've stated that you verified the information received from Bongo by speaking to other IFP members and that verification was done in a few minutes, that was your evidence.

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, I did say that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why were you unable to get in touch with Mr Luthule within those minutes that you were able to do the verification?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: We tried to get hold of him but however during that time you couldn't even bother a taxi and the phone that was there was actually disconnected because it wasn't paid for, so we couldn't actually communicate with Madlanduna.  Everything was happening just around us where we were.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it the policy of you as Caprivians to report to Mr Luthule about all the activities that you would have undertaken in the name of the IFP?