Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, no I didn't know, my impression was that the teams of Pretoria went out to the provinces, that's why when we wanted to make identification for statements of askaris it was always arranged with Vlakplaas at the end of each month.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I was not aware of the fact that they had a permanent team.  I'm trying to think of possibilities that you might have had and now you must remember that you had six months tape to think.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No I didn't have time just to think of him only, I had other work as well.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Couldn't you perhaps have contacted National Intelligence and asked them to house him because it was cardinally important?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No I didn't think about it. Because the most obvious option was to place him with Mr de Kock.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That's what doesn't make sense to me at all Mr Potgieter.  Here is a person who had already been a traitor to Mr de Kock.  His version was not that, his version was that he had been kidnapped. You arrested him, you detained him in terms of the Internal Security Act.  There were telephone conversations in which there was a connection between him and Mrs Mandela.  This knowledge was known to Vlakplaas members and you must have known that Mr de Kock knew it.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: At which stage I only know that when I got him, when I received him, I don't remember from whom, I discussed his history with Mr de Kock, yes, because I was not involved with his arrest.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Let me tell you what Mr Chappies Kloppers says here in his amnesty application which we all have available. When he deals with Mr Mabota's matter he says
"Because of the fact that he was an askari and had deserted, gone back to the ANC Mabota was also among  others among the ranks of the security police, even the security police saw him as a traitor."
Were you aware of that feeling?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No. Mr Kloppers was not at that stage at Vlakplaas, he was at Soweto, so where he could have gotten that assumption I don't know.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That's what he says under oath.  He says that's the perception that there was amongst security ranks.  Do you say that's wrong?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No I'm not saying that it's wrong, that's his perception but that doesn't have to influence my decisions.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Potgieter, you sent Mr Mabota back to Vlakplaas, you are in your heart worried about him, is that not true.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I believed that I did not have to be so worried.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: But you're not telling the truth if you say that.  Think clearly.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I did not know that I was sending this man to his death.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: You knew very well that you were sending him to his death Mr Potgieter and I'm saying it again, you had reservations about Mr Mabota's health, according to your own version.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I had an alternative arrangement with Mr Mabota, should he decide that it would be better to go back to his parents' house.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: In other words you were aware that he might not be very happy at Vlakplaas and that's why you discussed the arrangement with him.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I don't know I didn't regard it in that way at that stage.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Then why did you discuss this option with him?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: To convince him further of the interest that I have in him.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: You go further, you give him even a train ticket and you tell him to use it if it gets too hot at Vlakplaas.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I don't see anything sinister in that.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I see it as very sinister that I must tell you honestly.  Now we assume that you had reservations about Mr Mabota's health at Vlakplaas in which degree we can debate. It's now a person who has become a friend of yours.  Did you at any stage thereafter call him and ask how it was going with him.  Why not?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I can't remember how long thereafter I heard that he had left Vlakplaas.  It was not very long, that is why I sent a telex to Pietersburg.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That's more serious even Mr Potgieter, because now you heard that he has left Vlakplaas, this is your friend and key witness in a big case and what did you do about it?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I sent a telex to Pietersburg for them to go and look for him at his parents house.  I sent the telegram to the security branch at Pietersburg, I can't remember who the investigating person was.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: This is a very important, very confidential investigation Sir, to whom did you send this telex.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I sent it to the Divisional Commanding Officer of the Security Branch Pietersburg.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Who is he?  Give us a name.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: At that stage - I really cannot remember. I can't remember who was there at that stage.  It could either be Brigadier Coetzee or Colonel van der Merwe.  I don't remember.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I don't understand why you're so uncertain Mr Potgieter, it's very important, you should know, to whom did you speak?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: We can find out if it's so important to you.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It must have been important to you Mr Potgieter, you were interested in this aspect.  No I mean to know now, where is the telex?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I won't be able to say, I can't say.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Are there records of it?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I don't know.  Captain Mike Holmes is investigating this matter, I don't know what he has obtained or what he hasn't obtained, I don't know.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Why didn't you go to Pietersburg and see his family and ask them what's going on, my friend and my witness is gone, is he not here?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I trusted that the people at Pietersburg would do that for me.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No but they didn't do it, did they and I didn't get a decent answer, how can we say that?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: They said he'd never arrived there.  Now you must remember I was taken away from the investigation at that stage, and I was transferred to the intelligence unit.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Now Mr Potgieter, Pietersburg tells you that he didn't arrive in Pietersburg, now all red lights should start flashing, now you must find out what happened to him, you personally because what are you going to do now if von Lieres said that he's ready to go on?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Then I would have had a problem Sir.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Tell me, did you ever phone Mr de Kock and ask him how Mr Mabota was?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I spoke to Mr de Kock as I said in my statement.  I think I mentioned it in my statement.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Can I ask you if you had doubts about Mr de Kock's word?  Did you for instance think of going to the salary section to see whether Mabota was getting a salary every month.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No.  I left the matter there because it was not long after this episode when the Rivonia Seven were released and it was clear to me that there would be no prosecution and that is why I didn't go any further in this matter.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Even if we accept that just on a basis of friendship as you have given us, didn't you think of making enquiries?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Can I just hear it from you again clearly, is your version that when you called Mr de Kock and once he came to Soweto and the Security Branch, did you again say to Mr de Kock, understand clearly that I am now handing over Mr Mabota to you, he's an important man, however in the sense that he's going to be a witness in a case, in fact he is a key witness in a probable Mandela trial.  Was that your version.