Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

MR PHOSA: I'm just skipping thallium itself.  If you were interrogating a prisoner, would you not consider - as a strategy if he was resisting, giving him a substance that would make him exhausted or drowsy and still not allow him to sleep?  Wouldn't that be a good method?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know Mr Chairperson, I didn't do it so I don't know what the effect would be.

MR PHOSA: But it appears that keeping a person awake was one of the methods - making sure that he gets drowsy and he's not allowed to sleep.  If anything that could be - that could do that, you would do isn't it - if you could keep him awake?  I'm using the opposite now - keeping him awake, you could do that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I never did it so I - but it is possible.

MR PHOSA: You see according to the medical report which is - for what it says is not challenged, this substance thallium was used.  Now I'm not sure how far I must go in this regard - whether I should say: "used on Mr Mthimkhulu" but of course then we're dealing with Mr Mthimkhulu.  Mr Mthimkhulu was obviously given thallium, now you would not say that he didn't get it whilst he was in detention, you cannot say that.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: And you heard Mr du Plessis or is it Mr du Plessis, one of them are admitting though that it is normal to send someone to go and collect food for a detainee to be given whilst being detained.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is so Mr Chairperson, it was general practice among us to provide food to the detainees.

MR PHOSA: That would include drinks as well - I'm not talking about liquor.  It would include soft drinks.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: You recall that when you dealt with Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka, later when  you gave them that substance that put them to sleep, you had it into their coffee or tea, isn't it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Now, you wouldn't be in a position to dispute that anyone who wanted to use a substance could submerge it into the - ...[inaudible] interrogation, into the drink or soft drink?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot deny that Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Now to come to your substance now, the one that you used when you - before killing Mr Mthimkhulu, where did you get it from?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I already stated it was a prescription drug, a medical doctor had prescribed it.  It was a tranquilliser, a sleeping tablet.

MR PHOSA: You see, we don't accept that so I will ask you about that.  Who was the doctor?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I can no longer remember who the doctor was.

MR PHOSA: Right, maybe you can't say precisely who, you obviously - I get the impression that you had a few doctors that you used when you were around here?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the doctor around here, was it Port Elizabeth or where was it?  Where did you get this prescription?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, in Port Elizabeth.

MR PHOSA: Well, who were your regular doctors, the ones - look man, the ones that would give you this wonderful substance?  It ought to be one of those, who for instance?  Might it be - a, b, c, there can't be 20 or 30 surely?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, when I was in Port - when I arrive in Port Elizabeth, there were various - well we - our medical doctor were, the chief physician was the district surgeon and he had a number of doctors under him whom we saw.  After him it was Doctor de Ruyter.  I saw a number of specialists as well and now I am with Doctor Swartz.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Phosa, can we ask - can I ask the witness to repeat this, I think it's very important.  I did not follow his answer to the question.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: When I arrived in Port Elizabeth, our medical aid worked in such a way that we saw the local district surgeon but this was within his office.  There were a number of district surgeons whom we consulted and on various occasions different doctors were present - I can't remember which doctor was on duty.  And after that our medical aid changed where one could use one's own local doctor and under those circumstances, Doctor de Ruyter was my doctor for quite some time and at present I am with Doctor Swartz.

MR PHOSA: Are you then saying if it was not the district surgeon - sergeant, then it was either Doctor Ruyter or Doctor Swartz who gave this to you?

CHAIRPERSON: The district surgeon or one of his staff, he said there were several doctors working in the district surgeon's office as I understood it.

MR PHOSA: I meant it in that context, I say in that context.  If it was not inside that ...[inaudible] district surgeon, so it would be either Doctor - who was it now, did he say Ruyter or Swartz?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can exclude Doctor Swartz because I recently went to Doctor Swartz.

MR PHOSA: Now for - what were you studying for?  You said you used to use this instrument - this substance when you did your studies, what were you studying for?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I studied for becoming a lieutenant for the police examinations.

ADV SANDI: Can you give a description of this substance you were talking about?  How did it look like?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, it was an ordinary white sleeping tablet.

ADV SANDI: And when you gave it to Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka, Mr Mthimkhulu - you said yesterday he was able to simply take it with the coffee and drink it, was that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Was that in spite of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did these tablets taste of?  Or did you merely swallow them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I just swallowed them Mr Chairperson.  The prescription was that I had to take half a tablet.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had no idea whether they had a strong taste?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet you put two to four tablets in a cup of coffee and gave it to somebody to drink, not knowing what it would taste like?  Is that what you're telling us?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is so Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mthimkhulu simply took the coffee and drank it in spite of the fact that he had already accused you of having poisoned him whilst he was in detention?

MR BOOYENS: With respect Mr Chairman, I'm sure that it can - it's justifiable to say that Nieuwoudt was specifically accused of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I understood it to mean the police.

ADV SANDI: The police and not Mr Nieuwoudt personally, and this is at the time Mr Mthimkhulu has already made the allegation that whilst he was in detention he was poisoned by the police.  Now he is given a coffee with this substance in it, he simply accepts it and he drinks it with no difficulty, no resistance.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is so Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Isn't that something extremely odd Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Didn't it come as a surprise to you that he was able to simply take this cup of coffee and drink it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I find - you were told as part of your instructions that you must get hold of some medicine that would put these people to sleep?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was while you were planning the abduction?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we're all aware of the fact that there are very competent police laboratories in Pretoria.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet you didn't communicate with them, you took some tablets that you happened to have in your possession which you didn't know what they tasted of, is that what you're telling us was your planning?