Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR BRITZ: Yes, Captain you don't have to look at this page.  Before we start on this page, I am asking you generally in the whole book, is Mr Ngo's name referred to every day or every week or every month or is it referred to every day?

UNKNOWN: It appears daily during the week.

MR BRITZ: And if we look at page 20, the first entry there, at nine o'clock, number 74, it says visit single quarters, visit by Warrant Officer and Constable Ngo, quarters in order.  Do you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that the general tenner of the entries referring to Mr Ngo in the occurrence book?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it was supposed to happen because I used to go with him for inspecting the rooms or the cottages of the barracks.

MR BRITZ: All right, now Captain Koja were there some times when you did the inspection without Mr Ngo being present?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: And can we turn over to page 21, number 83?  Whose handwriting is that?

UNKNOWN: That is my handwriting sir.

MR BRITZ: All right, and it says Warrant Officer Koja reports that he visited Constable M.N. Ngo's room who is supposed to report for duty at the single quarters as Assistance Caretaker.  The above member couldn't be found at his room, according to information he has gone to Pretoria Magistrates court to give evidence.
	Now, Captain ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Is that under 14th of August 1987 ... (indistinct)

MR BRITZ: Yes, it is the 17th, Mr Chairman, but I think some of the Bundles might have been numbered wrong.  I see my Attorney shows me that page 21 and 22 might have been numbered wrongly in the Bundle, but the date is 17 August 1987.

ADV DE JAGER: 22 is dated the 17th, and 21 is dated the 14th?

MR BRITZ: Yes, I beg your pardon Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: The one is a Friday and the one on Monday.

MR BRITZ: Yes, I am referring to the Monday, 17 August 1987.  Mr Chairman, it seems that some of the pages may have just been in the wrong sequence.

CHAIRPERSON: They seems to have been badly misnumbered.  Page 20, my page 20 is the 14th of August 1987.  My colleague's page 20 is the 2nd of March, 1988.

MR BRITZ: Yes, I beg your pardon Mr Chairman.  I have to confess that the numbering that you see on the top right hand side is my numbering Mr Chairman.  I beg your pardon.  This must have slipped in.  We had difficulty in getting all the pages ready yesterday under some pressure and it seems some mistake has come in in respect of that.
	Maybe it will be safer to refer to the specific date on top of the page, because each of these pages has a date on top.  I will endeavour to correct the pages of everybody concerned.  If I can refer then to 17 August 1987.  Mr De Jager, I believe that will be your page 22.
	I am referring to number 83 there and the only question I want to ask in respect ... (intervention)

UNKNOWN: I see number 83.

MR BRITZ: Yes, now the only question I want to ask about that Captain, was Mr Ngo's position referred to as Assistance Caretaker?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR BRITZ: All right, could you please turn to page 25, dated 15 July 1988 and I want to refer to entry number 82 at twelve o'clock.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, give us time in order to find it because it is on page 25 in my Bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: He said 25.

MR BRITZ: Yes, I believe the Bundle is correct from approximately page 23 Mr Chairman, I think.  Mr De Jager, my Attorney has the same bundle as yours, that is why we know exactly where the mistake is.	I am referring to number 82, 15 July 1988, page 25.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that your handwriting?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is my handwriting.

MR BRITZ: And it says inspection single quarters, inspected by Warrant Officer Koja and Constable Ngo.  The following were checked and found in order, the kitchen, dining hall, bedrooms, toilets and the surrounding and then it stops there.  And then is that your signature?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is my signature.

MR BRITZ: Now Captain, is this a normal entry in the occurrence book which was made every day?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: Now Captain, on page 26, the next page, number 102, the date is 20 July 1988.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Mr De Jager, the numbered page 102 will appear on your page 27.   Now is that also your handwriting?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, it is my handwriting.

MR BRITZ: And we see there Constable M.N. Ngo leaves the quarters to Unit 19, Rosslyn to see Lieutenant Haggard in connection with his absence from duty for the period 18 July 1988 to 19 July 1988.  Now, what I want to ask you Captain was Mr Ngo away from duty sometimes that you had to speak to him about that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he was off duty without knowing the reasons.  If he was off duty, I would refer him to Unit 19 to make arrangements so that they would finalise that at that Unit 19.

MR BRITZ: All right.  And when such an occurrence happened, did you refer him back to his Commander at Unit 19 to deal with the issue?

UNKNOWN: That is so sir.

MR BRITZ: Mr Chairman, the page, the last page - 20 July 1988 with numbers 108 to 112, and especially number 109, was the last entry in the occurrence book that we could find referring to Mr Ngo.
	I have to stress however, that we did go through it at quite some speed, but under these circumstances that was the last entry.  We will go through it again during the time, until January and if anything, if we pick up anything else, we will bring that under your attention, but for purposes of today and the time we had available to us, this is the last entry of Mr Ngo.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is the last entry.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain,  yes, do you know what happened to Mr Ngo?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I know exactly because I was working together with him.  I was his Commander, he was arrested.  After being arrested there were Investigating Officers from Bloemfontein at our police station.  At the barracks at Mamelodi requesting for duty statement of his Commander and I gave them that statement.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain do you know anything of a motor vehicle accident that Mr Ngo was involved in?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I still remember that he was injured.

MR BRITZ: Can you at all remember when that was or can't you?

UNKNOWN: I can't remember exactly, but it was during the time when he was under my command at Mamelodi.

MR BRITZ: Right, and now Captain, Mr Ngo was arrested as far as my information goes, at the beginning of 1989, the 9th of February 1989.  Thank you Mr Visser.
	9th of February 1989, do you know the reason why there are no entries in the occurrence book from 20 July 1988 until his arrest referring to Mr Ngo?

UNKNOWN: I won't be able to explain explicitly, because these are the old documents.  They have been there for about the period of seven years.  We have shifted a lot, there may be other documents whereby we can be able to investigate everything.  I can't understand exactly.
	I don't remember why we stopped doing these entries until he was arrested.  I am not able to explain why.

MR BRITZ: Captain, if we look at the occurrence book, you will see that the entries about visiting the barracks and inspecting the barracks, thereafter, after 20 July 1988, refers to yourself and I think Ramala.  Is that right?

UNKNOWN: That is so sir.

MR BRITZ: And is it correct that Constable Ramala was transferred with Mr Ngo to assist you at the barracks?

UNKNOWN: That is so sir.

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR BRITZ: .

MR VISSER: If I may Mr Chairman, Visser on record, I've only got one question.  Captain, could you possibly from your own recollection remember how long Mr Ngo had possession of this Cressida motor car in Mamelodi?  If you can't remember, just say so.

UNKNOWN: I am not able to remember how long.

MR VISSER: Would you recollection be that it was a matter of days or a matter of weeks or can't you tell that either?