Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

MR STEENKAMP: What exactly were your instructions, Sir, must you go there and kill, is that what your instructions were from your regional commander, or what exactly was the instructions?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: The instruction was to kill and take money.

MR STEENKAMP: May I just, on this point, if I understood you correctly, and just correct me if I'm wrong, you were saying you identified the target after your reconnaissance, you made the plan, the map was drawn with the assistants, then you approached the regional commander, who from the Director of Operations, as you understood it, approved a plan that you submitted, is that correct?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Please repeat your question, Sir.

MR STEENKAMP: My question is, did you indeed get instructions, or did you get approval for a plan that you decided upon?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: As I made reconnaissance, I told him that I identified the target, he then went to the Director of Operations for approval, and he was given an order that we should continue with the mission.  He then came to me and gave me that instruction.

MR STEENKAMP: That's exactly how I understood - that's how I understood your evidence.  My question is, when you made the reconnaissance and gave your plan to the regional commander for him to seek approval, did you tell him that you would be hitting Wesselsbron Supermarket, you would be killing all the whites there and that you would be taking money, that that was the plan, did you tell him all that?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I told him that there were members of the AWB who frequented the supermarket, I told him that way, that there were members of the AWB and the police who used to go to that supermarket.  In my initiative, I have a right to use, or to use my powers in the field.

MR MALAN: Are you saying that you did not need any approval to shoot or to rob, that you could do as of your own authority?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: As I've already said, I told him about the target, and I told him who was with - used to go to that target.  He then came back with a report that we should go on and attack the target.  I couldn't do that without their approval, as they were my superiors.

MR MALAN: I just wanted clarity of what, maybe it's your definition of target, once you identified the target, it was clear in your mind, you would be shooting all the whites there and you would take all the money that you could take, that's the definition of deciding on a target, is that correct?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, we would shoot everybody who was white and took money.

MR MALAN: And you didn't receive orders to do that, that was implicit, it was simply approved?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: According to our policy as the soldiers, you couldn't do anything without an order.  As I've already said, we received an order to shoot the people who was there and take money.  I gave such a report.  When I receive an order to carry on with the mission, the answer, my report, the one that I gave them.

MR MALAN: I'm not trying to set a trap to you, I'm trying to understand in my own mind, when you did the reconnaissance, you identified the target, already then you know that if it would be approved, everybody present, every white person present, would be killed, all the cash would be taken, am I understanding you correctly, that's all I'm asking, is that what it means when you say you identified the target?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I don't understand you, can you please repeat your question?

MR MALAN: I want to understand whetehr the regional commander told you to shoot the people, and whether that was the first time that you thought of shooting people, and steal the money, what was your idea when you say you identified the target?  Does it mean that you then already decided, "This is the place we will attack, we will kill all the whites, we will take all the money, in order to do that, we simply need approval from the commander"?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: After identifying the target, I had to give a report saying that there is a place like this, as a superior, please approve this or give an order or a decision, as you have the powers to do so, for us to continue with killing the people there and robbing that place.  He would then give an order.  Are you satisfied?

MR MALAN: That's exactly just what I wanted to make sure of, that I understood you correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told from the time you were sent there that the targets you were looking for were places where you could kill people, white people, and take money, steal money, were you told to look for that sort of target?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: According to my report to the regional commander, I gave him a report that that was a shop and members of the AWB and the police used to go there.  I was asking for approval to continue with the operation or not, whether to continue or not, whether the regional commander got approval from the Director of Operations or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us that many times, what I simply want to know is, when you were sent there, you have told us you were sent to that area, were you sent there to look for this sort of target?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: As I've already said that any target was okay, as long as it was going to fulfil the needs of the APLA and the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what sort of target would fulfil that?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: As we don't differentiate between the soft and hard targets, as long as there are boers, the target was fine, as the policy said that we should overthrow the white domination, as long as there were white people, no matter in which political organisations they belonged to, as long as they were benefitting from their government, the white government ...(intervention).

MR MALAN: The question which I would also like some clarity on is, you left, you say you got instructions, presumably in Umtata, and then was deployed in the Free State.  Now your lawyer didn't cover those paragraphs with you, but who gave you instructions to go to the Free State?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: The person who sent me to the Free State was the director.  I was together with Sibande.  We were going to meet Khotle, the regional commander, here in the Free State.

MR MALAN: All right.  Now, when you were sent to meet Khotle, did you already have instructions from Umtata as to what to do, from the commander, from the director?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, I knew that this was the operation area, this is what I knew.  As the people who were in the field, we would see what to do, where and when.  The only thing we could do was that when we saw something, we had to report and then get an approval from the superiors whether to continue with the operation or not.

MR MALAN: Why were you sent to the Free State?  Did he tell you?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I was told by the regional commander that here I came, I was here to work, I was going to be responsible for whatever we were going to do.  As I've already stated, I was going to take over from Khotle, I was going to be the regional commander.

MR MALAN: You mention the concept "white herenvolkism", what is your understanding of that, what does that mean?  Do you know the concept?  What does it mean in your understanding?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: According to my understanding, or according to what I heard, if I still remember well, it was the white governance, the way they were governing, the manner that they were governing this country, our country.

MR MALAN: But you don't have a specific content to that concept, "the manner they were governing the country", is that saying it's apartheid, or what are you referring to in your understanding?