Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: Then I want to put it to you that you've been telling deliberate lies in that, you specifically stated yesterday that that was the reason for you applying for amnesty?  You said so on more than one occasion, yesterday and today.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying that I had submitted by application sometime before the hearing commenced.

MR LOWIES: I'm not talking about your application, listen carefully, we're talking about a lie that you told yesterday and today, the lie was the reason why you were applying for amnesty is because you heard people stating that the police were not involved, that is why you applied for amnesty.  Then that is then a lie?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I mentioned before that these people were not telling the truth because the police were present, I was present there.  They are just trying to protect the police even the lawyer himself was trying to protect those people.

MR LOWIES: Is that your answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: I put it to you Sir, that the reasons why you apply for amnesty in the Boipatong matter is riddled by contradictions by yourself and I will list those.  Firstly, you testified yesterday that the lies that were being told regarding police complicity caused you to do so, whereas today you say you only heard it after your application.  Comment?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  What I remember about yesterday is that the statement that was discussed that Mr Berger took from prison, that did happen.

MR LOWIES: Which Mr Berger?  Did you say Dannie Berger, I think it wasn't translated as Dannie Berger.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Berger, Mr Berger.

MR LOWIES: Is it Mr Berger sitting over there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes he arrived in Stofberg Prison and took a statement from me which statement I did not sign.

MR LOWIES: How do you know he took an unsigned statement from you?  Did he write it down?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They questioned me on what happened and they were writing this down but they never requested me to sign anything.

MR LOWIES: At that stage did you apply for amnesty yet or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had submitted a long while ago when they came, that is Mr Berger and Mr Brian.

MR LOWIES: No but listen carefully, I think it's common cause that you applied for two sets of amnesty, correct?  Two sets of applications, the one for the Sebokeng matter and the one for the Boipatong matter, am I correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Now did you apply for these applications at different times, for these acts?

CHAIRPERSON: Who asked you about Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Mr Berger and Mr Brian.

MR LOWIES: So the first people - I'm sorry Chair, can I proceed?  I'm sorry, I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that you refused to sign the statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They did not make me sign the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why you didn't sign the statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I do not.

MR LOWIES: Do you say that the first person to whom you have mentioned your complicity in Boipatong was Mr Berger and Mr Brian?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes but I had told Mongese at Leeukop, at Stofberg it was Mr Berger and Mr Brian whom I first told about my involvement.

CHAIRPERSON: In which prison were you first detained, is it Leeukop?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was kept in Leeuhof.

CHAIRPERSON: And is it Mr Mongese who visited you at Leeuhof?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I did not get the question quite well, I had already been convicted and he came to Leeukop Prison.  Berger and the other one came to the other prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Once you were convicted you were then sent to Leeukop Prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and is that where Mr Mongese visited you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At Leeukop?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he ask you about the Boipatong matter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Now is it your evidence then that Mongese was the first person you told about the Boipatong matter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think so if I'm not mistaken.

MR LOWIES: Yet it was not Mongese who took this unsworn statement from you it was Mr Berger?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am saying Mongese came to Leeukop and Mr Berger and others came to Stofberg.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Mongese take a statement from you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes he did at Leeukop.

MR LOWIES: But I'm talking about the unsigned statement.  Was that taken by Mongese or by Mr Berger?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was taken by Mr Brian and Mr Berger.

ADV SIBANYONI: I'm sorry Mr Lowies.
	Mr Nosenga, when Mongese visited you at Leeukop what is the position about your application, had you already applied or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think I had not yet submitted this application, I think I submitted this application when I was at Leeukop and it was before the TRC thing started.

ADV SIBANYONI: Was that before Mongese's visit or after?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I gave this application to Mongese and later on to Mr Brian when I was in Stofberg.

ADV SIBANYONI: Did you complete any form when Mongese visited you in prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was writing as I was speaking I only filled in my application form properly when my legal counsel came.

ADV SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall, well it's been a while now.

CHAIRPERSON: Had the hearings started already?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I think it had not yet started, I think it was just about to start, I cannot recall quite well.

ADV SIGODI: And which lawyer are you referring to, who assisted you with the filling in?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The one legal counsel that is representing me now, that is after Mongese and Brian had arrived and then my legal counsel who is representing me now arrived.  She found me in Stofberg and she is the one who assisted me in filling in the application form.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga you are making serious allegations and I want you to reflect on what you're saying.  So you are saying that your application was only filled in by Ms Tanzer sitting here next to you, properly filled in, to use your words?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes because she is still representing me now, the others did not come.

MR LOWIES: So if I understand your evidence correctly, the only application that we had previously was that for Sebokeng but the Boipatong was filled by Ms Tanzer, properly filled in, do I understand you correctly?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: She filled in two application forms for the Sebokeng as well as for the Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: Your answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, Boipatong and Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: So to summarise then am I understanding you correctly that nobody else but Ms Tanzer filled in applications for amnesty?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did indicate that some came like Mr Brian came to me in Stofberg, another one came while I was in Leeukop and my legal rep came to help me fill in the application form for the Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: The legal rep as you call her, is Ms Tanzer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, I want to urge you please to be honest with us because you see if that is the case there has been some fraud committed by various people and that cannot be allowed.  Are you honest in your answers?

MR LAX: Chairperson I'd like Mr ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: I've been instructed to leave it.