Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: If I understand you correctly, I clearly observed that the vehicle would be brought to a halt on a low water bridge after which the driver, who was Matthews Sehlwana would then jump out and run away so that he could remove himself from the dangerous situation and so that we could then arrest these people.

ADV VISSER: Where were you placed during this incident?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I was inside the casspir.

ADV VISSER: Along with Erwee?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: With Colonel Erwee and some other people that I can remember, I don't know whether I should mention them?

ADV VISSER: Did you listen to his evidence, was his evidence correct, regarding the people who were with you in the casspir?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, entirely correct.

ADV VISSER: We learnt that what ultimately happened is that at about nine o'clock, the casspir blocked the road and the combi arrived and stopped.  Can you tell the Committee what your experience was of what had happened there, your own observation of what happened there?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I was inside the casspir, we sat inside the casspir for quite a while, after we learnt that the vehicle was on its way.
	Our instructions were to listen to the whistle.  I was quite tense, I kept my R1 next to me and when the whistle sounded to tell us that the vehicle was close, the casspir pulled away with quite a bit of speed.
	To make it a bit clearer, this bank which had been discussed, was a bank which had been formed by the regular grading by a road grader and we drove over this bank with such force, that I fell of my chair.  I was totally off balanced until the point where the casspir stopped right in front of the minibus.
	Through the window of the casspir I could observe what was happening.

ADV VISSER: And what did you see?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: The moment when the combi came to a halt, I saw the person who was to throw the gas grenade, and I must say he was running quite fast, I heard at some stage that a shot rang out.
	This shot didn't sound like a gunshot to me and seconds afterwards somebody shouted they are shooting at us.  That I heard very clearly.
	The next moment ...

ADV VISSER: Excuse me, this person whoever shouted this, where did this shout come from, what direction?  From where you were on the bank, or from the bottom of the river bed or more or less where or don't you know?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: It was definitely not inside the casspir, it was from outside, but I can't pin point exactly from where.

ADV VISSER: Now, where you were on the top of the bank,  outside the casspir, who was there according to your recollection?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I can remember very clearly where Captain Born and two of his members were standing on the bank, diagonally in front of the back part of the casspir.

ADV VISSER: Was there anybody else there?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I knew about them and I also saw when the shot rang out, how Captain Born collapsed.  At that stage I didn't know whether he had been hit or whether he was just seeking cover.
	But I heard the shot and shortly afterwards I also heard a volley of very fast shots from outside.  And afterwards I realised, I must say it was the first time I found myself in such a situation, I jumped hither and thither and then, when I heard shots firing from inside the casspir, I jumped out and also tried to fire from the roof.

ADV VISSER: Yes?  So the sequence of events is that a pistol shot rang out?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Where did that shot come from?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Also from outside somewhere and I suspected also from the minibus.

ADV VISSER: You suspected that but you didn't see anybody firing?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No.  Because there I was experiencing a bit of a balance problem.

ADV VISSER: You saw Born falling, he was seeking cover or he was wounded, you didn't know, but you saw him falling onto the ground?
	And then another volley?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, after which somebody shouted they are shouting at us.

ADV VISSER: Now this volley from where you were standing, could you determine where it was coming from?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Definitely also from outside.

ADV VISSER: When you say outside, do you mean outside the casspir?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, from outside the casspir.

ADV VISSER: Afterwards you became aware that there was shooting from the casspir?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, that is correct.  After we heard they are shooting at us, some of our people started shooting and I would have done exactly the same, but my R1 rifle had stalled with the first and second shots and in both cases, I removed it from the stalled position, it still didn't move.  I then dropped it onto the floor of the casspir, I took out my pistol and shot in the direction of the bus.

ADV VISSER: Now this whole process, how long or how many shots did you fire with the R1?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I don't think a single shot from the R1.

ADV VISSER: And how many shots did you shoot with the pistol?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I think about eight.

ADV VISSER: Did you shoot at a particular person?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No, on the contrary, I simply shot into the combi because at that stage there was quite a bit of teargas inside the bus.

ADV VISSER: Could you see the teargas bubbling out of the windows?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, it was white.

ADV VISSER: This teargas, it is something that I have neglected to mention before, was this teargas at any stage so dense that  you couldn't see the combi at all from where you were at the casspir?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No, you could see, you could see the outline of the combi.

ADV VISSER: So you could see the direction in which you were supposed to be shooting?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: And then, did you stop firing?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I stopped firing after Mr Erwee, who was standing next to me, shouted seize fire.

ADV VISSER: What were your movements immediately afterwards?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: When the gas started overwhelming us, I was totally overcome, I jumped out of the casspir and ran away to the bushes, simply to be able to breathe.

ADV VISSER: And how did you feel, emotionally speaking, about this experience you've just related?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Well, Chairperson, as I've said just now, it was my first case in my police career where I had to deal with people who answered fire with fire and I was in a state of shock.

ADV VISSER: Please continue and tell us what happened next.  The next significant thing that happened.

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I sheltered behind a fairly thick tree truck for quite a while, I stood there for quite a while because I was coughing, I couldn't really regain my equilibrium and it took me about 15 - 20 minutes to come to my senses.
	I saw the helicopter landing and I saw them running with somebody towards the helicopter and I also saw it taking off.

ADV VISSER: Now afterwards  you still stood there at the tree?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I stood there for quite a while until I regained my senses again and stopped coughing, my eyes were also full of tears.  So when I pulled myself together, I took up position at the bank again.

ADV VISSER: What did you see there?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I saw the people busy at the combi and I also saw how Colonel Erwee carried this wounded person down to the dry river bed and put - lay him down there.  At that stage I hadn't yet approached.

ADV VISSER: What happened then?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Colonel Erwee called me and said that I should come and help him.  He said that he needed somebody to come and talk to this man.

ADV VISSER: Did you notice Matthews Sehlwana in the area then?