Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

MR ZILWA: I am sorry, I am sorry, Mr Chairman, before that is answered, I am not quite sure that the question is fair.  The witness has said repeatedly that everybody who was in that camp, every white person who was in that vicinity at the time, they regarded as an enemy.  He has repeatedly stated that they know that had they known that it was a mere party of fishermen, they would not have gone ahead with the attack.
	Now with that response on record, it is not fair to suggest that they meant to protect their leaders by attacking fishermen and children.  The question is just not in context.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is a fair objection Mr Smuts, if you would care to rephrase.

MR SMUTS: Well, the cold facts Mr Chairman, are that that is what they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but in the context as Mr Zilwa says at the time - this witness' evidence is that he laboured under the impression that based on the information that he had received, that any white person found along that coast, was an infiltrator doing whatever they objected to.

MR SMUTS: Well, if I can explore that then Mr Chairman, is it your evidence Mr Mazwi, that children found on that coast, who happened to be white, were to be regarded as the enemy against whom your leadership required protection?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I would not regard children as enemies.

MR SMUTS: But your party fired on a vehicle in which there were two children?

MR ZILWA: Again Mr Chairman, that needs to be put in the proper context.  At no stage did the witness or anybody else say at the time that they did the firing, did they know or see that there were children in the vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you do anything to find out whether there were children or women in that car?

LUNGILE MAZWI: No sir, we did not.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't care whether there were women or children in the car?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That did not occur to me that there would be children in the car.

MR SMUTS: Mr Mazwi, did you hear the passage that Mr Maxhayi read yesterday from the statement of the then ANC President, Mr Mandela on the 13th of April 1993?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I heard that.

MR SMUTS: Did you hear the passage which reads at page 9 of the document, Exhibit B, any lack of discipline is trampling on the values that Chris Hani stood for?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I heard so.

MR SMUTS: Those who commit such acts, serve only the interests of the assassins and desecrate his memory?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I heard that too.

MR SMUTS: Do you agree with that view expressed by Mr Mandela?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I agree sir.  As Chris Hani was killed, he was still maintaining that position.

MR SMUTS: Can I ask you then what gave you and your colleagues the right to deviate from that position?

LUNGILE MAZWI: We were forced by the situation, because they killed the person who was actually preaching about peace.  That action actually compelled us to act in that manner and we looked like people who were actually deviating from that role, whereas we were not like that.

MR SMUTS: You say you were forced by the situation, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: Do you say you were forced as members of the SDU's to act in that situation?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: We heard yesterday that there were 15 members of your SDU, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: Three of you acted in this manner?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: Were the other 12 not forced by the situation to act in such a way?

LUNGILE MAZWI: It is as I said before, that our modus operandi as SDU's, we are not compelled to inform anybody about any operation.  It depends on how delicate the operation is, or how dangerous or sensitive the operation is.

MR SMUTS: What I suggest to you Mr Mazwi, is that what sets you apart, you and your two colleagues, from the other 12, is not that you were forced to act by the situation, but that you chose to act in the manner in which you did, notwithstanding the expressed policy of the African National Congress regarding resorting to political violence.

LUNGILE MAZWI: We were forced by the situation sir.

MR SMUTS: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SMUTS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zilwa?

MR ZILWA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mazwi, you say the manner in which your SDU operated, was such that it was quite permissible and normal for a decision of the type that you took, to be taken by a few members of the SDU, such as the three of you?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct sir.

MR ZILWA: In taking that decision as you did, was there anything contrary to the manner in which the SDU operates or contrary to any other higher policy under which the SDU operated?

LUNGILE MAZWI: No, nothing was contrary to anything.

MR ZILWA: Now, you say given the situation that was prevailing at the time, when you carried out the act that you did, you thought you were acting in your capacity as an SDU to protect?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct sir.

MR ZILWA: Did I understand you correctly in saying you thought your action was such that it would influence even other would be assassins of your leaders, to desist from so doing and as such you were acting within the scope of what your SDU's are all about?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct sir.

MR ZILWA: Did I also understand you correctly in understanding you to be saying because of the information you had given, you thought that any white person excluding of course women and children, who would be in that area, would be part of the enemy that was destabilising Port St Johns and which constituted your targets?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct sir.

MR ZILWA: I want us to get this clear.  If you knew that the party that you ended up attacking, in fact was a fishing party, amongst which there were children, if you had known that before the attack, would you have carried on with the attack?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I hope we would not even begin to do such a thing, if we knew.

MR ZILWA: You must be very careful with your choice of words Mr Mazwi.  When you say you hope, what does that mean?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I want to say I am sure, but in Xhosa that language is accepted.

MR ZILWA: Okay.  Now, in acting as you did, did you consciously did contrary to the established policy of the ANC?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the question?

MR ZILWA: In carrying out the operation as you did, did you consciously act, knowingly act contrary to the established policy of the ANC?

LUNGILE MAZWI: No, that is not true sir.

MR ZILWA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ZILWA

ADV SANDI: Mr Mazwi, just one or two questions from me.  You say you had no time to investigate and verify the available information about the people who were staying at the bungalows.  Why was that?  Why was that, why did you think you had no time to do that?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Our problem was this, most of us who were involved in that operation, we were not familiar with that place, but we had to ensure our safety before.  Therefore it was difficult for us to investigate what was happening.  We were not to be involved in any prolonged investigation.
	We took it that the first investigation was just enough for us to start our job.

ADV SANDI: Would I be correct to infer from that, you gentlemen were in a great hurry and you were quite emotional, you wanted to simply retaliate the death of your leader?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I cannot dispute that sir, and I cannot agree because it was just a combination.  We were just in a hurry, that was not good news.  What happened, was not actually a good thing.

ADV SANDI: When you look back in retrospect, do you regret having ambushed innocent fishermen who were just on holiday in that area?  Do you have any regrets about that?