Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-12

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes, she refused because she said she is not a witch.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you take any one of these four people to that witch-doctor in Komatipoort?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We took this one alone and there were also people who represented the community and another group of people who presented the youths.

CHAIRPERSON: So you took the deceased alone to that witch-doctor?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct, we took her to the witch-doctor so that she could hear for herself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Alright Mr Richard, we've got that.

MR RICHARD: I believe it's a badly taken statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And right, now when you took the deceased back to the sangoma in Komatipoort, what did the sangoma say?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: When we arrived there the traditional doctor confirmed that this is the person he had referred to.  He told us that she was the person who was responsible for the death of her husband and her husband's brother.

MR RICHARD: And what did the traditional healer, sangoma, say should happen next?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The traditional doctor did not tell us what to do so we asked the deceased whether she still refused or still disagree with us and the witch-doctor that she's a witch.

MR RICHARD: And what did she say?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: She said yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: Did she agree that she was a witch or disagree that she was a witch?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: She agreed that she's a witch.

MR RICHARD: What did you say she should do next?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We told her that when we arrive at the village she must leave the village.

MR RICHARD: And what was her reaction to this piece of information?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: She agreed whilst we were still at the traditional doctor's place but when we arrived at the village she refused to leave.

MR RICHARD: Then what did you group of people do, did you discuss it with anyone, report back to anyone?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We told the people that she had agreed initially that she would leave but now she refused.

MR RICHARD: And what was the reaction to your report?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The community decided that if she agrees that she is a witch she should leave but if she refused to leave the village then she should be killed.

MR RICHARD: Was this information conveyed to the deceased?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: She was not present at that meeting.

MR RICHARD: After the meeting did somebody go and say to her "Poppy, you've got a choice, either leave the village or get killed."?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No one was sent to her.

MR RICHARD: So what else did the meeting decide?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The community was angry because she walked out of the meeting, she didn't want to listen what the decision of the community would be.

MR RICHARD: And then what happened?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what meeting is that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is the second one after we returned from the sangoma to give the report.

CHAIRPERSON: At which meeting wasn't she present?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is the last meeting when we returned with her from the witch-doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Unfortunately I'm not following you properly.  There's a meeting you walked out of, do I understand you correctly?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes, that is the same meeting when we returned from the traditional doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the same meeting where you say that she wasn't present?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I am not saying she wasn't at the meeting but she walked out of the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: But she was present until she walked out?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that's what I mean.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  When she was present, what was said to the meeting when you came back with her from Komatipoort.  When she was still in the room, what was said in her presence?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: She was told that if she agrees that she is a witch like others she should leave the village.

MR RICHARD: And was she told what would happen to her if she didn't leave?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes, that is what made her to walk out of the meeting.

MR RICHARD: And before leaving the meeting did she say anything to the meeting, did she say what her plans were?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: She told us that she would not leave the village.

MR RICHARD: Did she tell you why she would not leave the village?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: What did she say to you why she did not want to leave the village?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: She told us that she does not agree with what the witch-doctor has told us.

MR RICHARD: After she left the meeting what did the meeting decide?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The members of the community and people were shouting for her death.

MR RICHARD: And what did they decide to do, who did they tell to do what?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: People were chosen who would be responsible for her killing.

MR RICHARD: Who chose those people to go and kill her?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: There's no specific person who chose people but people were randomly choosing others or pointing other people who would go and kill her and some of the people who were chosen were her friends.

MR RICHARD: Now can you give us the names ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry.  Are you saying that this meeting then broke into chaos, people were shouting, angry?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they just started pointing out people, identifying people that must go and kill this lady?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes, they said because I used to visit her at her house I should be one of them and they said I should be one of the people who were going to kill her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but now was there a discussion and the  chairperson who was in control of the meeting and then a decision is taken that you would go and kill the deceased or were people just pointing out other people, the members of this meeting to go and kill the deceased?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: After that chaos the chairman continued.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: And everybody listened and they started now choosing people.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was calm again when you were chosen to execute this plan?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct but the chairman was using the - the words that were used by the people who were shouting when there was chaos.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but now that is what I'm trying to understand.  You were saying to us a moment ago that, what I followed from what you said, is that there was chaos, disorder and people were just pointing out other people including her friends to go and kill her.  Now when did that happen or did I misunderstand you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I said during that chaos people were just randomly choosing people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now when were you chosen?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: After the chaos they pointed me as one of the people who should go to kill her.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you have to go with the others that were pointed out during the chaos?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think I understand now.  Yes Mr Richard, sorry.

MR RICHARD: Now who was the chair of the meeting?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: It was Thomas Shishlangu.

MR RICHARD: Was the chief of the village there as well?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct.

MR RICHARD: How many people were at the meeting?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: There were many people at that meeting.

MR RICHARD: Now during the meeting before it got chaotic did anyone say hold on, it's wrong to go and kill Poppy?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: There's no one who stood up and said that because all the people were aware that she walked out of the meeting.