Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-15

MR DEHAL: The only distinction I'm drawing Mr Chairperson, if you'll allow me, is this that if the thought occurred to her at the Ultra City to call for the police or to join the queue and that's the distinction she drew earlier, namely that when she got to Ultra City it was principally for her sister and my question is why didn't you mention earlier that you had the idea to call for the police?

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't you said "why didn't you mention earlier that you went to Ultra City to call for the police?"  She still said she went to Ultra City to look for her sister, hasn't she?

MR DEHAL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: She's not changed it.

MR DEHAL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: She said while there it occurred to her to call the police?

MR DEHAL: Perhaps I should change that question then.  Thank you.
	When I referred earlier to your statement, paragraph 4, the first sentence, relating to your having gone to Ultra City to call for the police, why did you not say in addition to just saying "no, I didn't go there to call for the police", why didn't you say "yes, the thought did occur to me when I was there" as you now say?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I went to the Ultra City merely because I wanted to contact my sister even though the thought occurred in my mind but the queue was too long for me to entertain that.  I decided to go back.

MR DEHAL: Where was the deceased on the night of the 31st December, do you know?  1991 that is, the night before the death?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: We were at my home at Luthuli's place.

MR DEHAL: Did you both spend the night together?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes we did.

MR DEHAL: And on the morning of the 1st January did you go back to the Mbukazi home before you embarked on the journey to the market?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: We left at home together.  He went first to his home, he chatted with the kids and then afterwards he came and join me to proceed to the market.

MR DEHAL: At what time in the day would that have been?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: It was in the morning even though I don't remember the time.  I was going to the market to sell my product.

MR DEHAL: Can you tell whether on that morning the deceased had met his brother Frederick Mbukazi before both him and you left to go to the market or do you not know?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I do not know.

MR DEHAL: Did you meet Frederick Mbukazi the morning of that day before you embarked on the journey to the market for the deceased?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No we didn't.

MR DEHAL: Do you belong to any political organisation?  Sorry, did you at the deceased was killed?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No.

MR DEHAL: Do you accept that the area you lived in was an IFP area?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I do agree, it was IFP mostly.

MR DEHAL: Do you accept that the area that the applicant lived in was mostly an ANC area or predominantly an ANC area?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I do agree.

MR DEHAL: At the time the deceased was killed did you know that the applicant was an ANC supporter?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No, I don't have that knowledge.

MR DEHAL: And at the time the deceased was killed did you know that the deceased was an IFP supporter?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No I do not have that knowledge either.

MR DEHAL: If it is suggested to you on instructions from the applicant that the deceased was in fact an ardent IFP supporter, would you be able to dispute that?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I'll dispute that.

MR DEHAL: Why would you dispute that if you had no idea on whether he was an IFP or not?

JUDGE DE JAGER: If she's disputing that he's an ardent - you asked her whether she would agree that he was an ardent IFP?

MR DEHAL: There is that distinction, thank you.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, well generally, why would you dispute that?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: What I know is that he was completely nothing.

MR DEHAL: Is it not your version that the entire incident leading up to the death of the deceased started off would then meaning the applicant and his group calling the deceased an Inkatha person?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Would you please repeat that?

MR DEHAL: Is it not your version that the death of the deceased started off with the applicant and the persons in his group calling the deceased an Inkatha person?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes they did.

MR DEHAL: This calling of the deceased as an Inkatha person, was that in some derogatory fashion or was that complimentary?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I don't know whether it was complimentary or not but I knew that he wasn't.

MR DEHAL: What word did they use when they said "Inkatha person"?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Korva.

MR DEHAL: Is that not a word that has a sting to it that is derogatory on a person?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I think so.

MR DEHAL: Did they deceased call the applicants anything?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No he didn't.

MR DEHAL: And after the applicants and the persons in his group call the deceased an Inkatha person, what happened?  Did the deceased and his group of persons chase the - sorry, did the applicant and his group of persons chase the deceased or did the deceased chase them?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: There was no running after each other.  We met Lee and Kwazi, they were in front and Gebu was behind them and then the two passed us and then Gebu didn't, they only turned back and Gebu was in front of the deceased and Lee and the other one were at the back of him and then they started hitting each other.

MR DEHAL: You were asked the question on whether the deceased had a firearm.  You said no, he did not own a firearm.  You probably did refer to Kwasha as well, the home-made firearm but I just want to clarify, did he ever have a Kwasha, a home-made firearm?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No he didn't have.

MR DEHAL: Did the deceased have knife on him?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No he didn't have a knife.

MR DEHAL: Now how can you be so certain about a knife?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He didn't have knife on him, he didn't own a knife and I'm certain because we came from home together.

MR DEHAL: At the time of his death was the deceased employed or was he at school or was he unemployed?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He was unemployed.

MR DEHAL: Was he not attending school?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He was a student at Mcotoyi.

MR DEHAL: What standard was he in?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He was in standard 9.

MR DEHAL: And were you also at school at the time?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No I had a child at the time so I wasn't at school.

MR DEHAL: And what standard did you make at school?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Standard 7.

MR DEHAL: The applicant says that you were never at the scene, you are lying about your presence at the scene?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He is the one who is lying.

MR DEHAL: He says you arrived at court and testified against him with a vengeance because you were opposed to the idea that he might win the trial and you wanted to see that he is in jail because you knew he stabbed your - the deceased?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I will repeat again, I'm saying he is still lying.

MR DEHAL: And his instructions to me is that today you testify on the same lines, more or less, because you're opposed to him obtaining amnesty?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: If he is applying for amnesty he is the one who has a responsibility to tell the truth as it is and if he's telling the truth we will forgive him and we will request for him to get amnesty but if he is lying like this then we're opposing that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at court throughout the trial?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you listen to the judgment?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I didn't attend on that specific date but Mbukazi attended.

MR DEHAL: May I proceed Sir?  Thank you.
	Sorry, what keys did you leave with the lady at the market?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: To open the cupboard where we leave our goods, our produce.