Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

MR MBAQA: No, as I said to you when this thing occurred I thought it was tear gas and I ran away, but  then it occurred you know I just suspected it - it just - my brain just you know -  when this happened I just became confused I didn't hear - I didn't even hear the  noise you know, a bang or something - I just saw something what looked like thick smoke and people running helter skelter and so on.
So I ran away as well but then that happened and I came back and as I said, we  when to the hospital.  When we came to  the hospital I asked Lawrence about what had happened.   I asked him you know, I  said do you know about what just happened here, he said to me no he doesn't know what happened.  But then I must just keep out of this that's what he said to me.
But I said to him, how can you say so, my eyes are closed now I cannot even hear well,  he said you probably took the impact of that  but as I  am saying to you,  you just keep out of - out of this but I don't know what - what happened, that's what he said to me.
I then let him alone  but obviously I had a suspicion in any way but I didn't see Smiles at that time,  I didn't see him - I only saw him the next morning when I went to the office.  I then left the ANC office to go to our office - I was with Mafu Davids on that morning when Smiles then came running up  and said you know he did this and that he was sorry.
I didn't say anything at that point - I didn't say anything we  just kept on walking away.   I don't know if Mafu Davids heard him, but I never spoke - I never said anything - we never discussed anything because at that point I thought well here comes trouble and something I did not know about and so on.  This thing was with me at some stage and so on - that's what I thought.
So that day passed and the following day I don't know,  I think it was about four days - four - five  days I went away and I came back again and when I came back I was told Lawrence had been arrested  and Tembikosi and Millicent, well when that happened I thought well maybe these people will clear this up and maybe they know -particularly Lawrence, that's what I thought.
But still I didn't discuss this with anyone - still I didn't talk with anyone about this - this matter.   I - I obviously wanted to be - to be you know on the safe side because there was already a lot of police activity at that stage.    And I went away again after the following week,  when I returned I was then arrested at the Kimberley airport, when I returned from  Johannesburg.   I was arrested by the police and they then told me they were taking me into detention as a suspect in this incident of the 25th 1993.
They took me to Transvaal - Transvaal Road police station where I met some - some officers I do not know but it is very senior officers.  They then told me that they were taking - okay they then told me that they were taking me - they then told me that they we taking me into detention I don't know but it was some of those pieces of security legislation.  I think it was - they said  something first and I don't recall it - something under Public - Public Order or something ja but eventually they told me they are taking me in under Section 29 of the Internal Security Act.  They then told me I cannot see a lawyer I cannot see anybody, I can only see them.
  They then took me to the District Surgeon - after that they took me back to Transvaal Road police station  to - to the same people, from there  they took me to Barkly West, I then slept there and then the following day begun the interrogation sessions.
They interrogated me then every day saying my bag was with - they  asked me what I did with my bag you know.    At that stage I  didn't want to co-operate with them, I didn't say - I didn't  say anything, so that was that situation then me not wanting to anything - them saying all sorts of things and I wasn't saying anything so that  became an process of every day - every day - every day - that was the situation.
Then after some  days I can't remember I had no longer have a recollection of days as to what happened there - as to which - on which day what specifically happened.    But one day they came to me and said look we know that you - you had a grenade in the bag  we also know that you were there at the march with a grenade and at some point during the march you went out of the march  and you took the grenade out of your bag and you placed it inside your pocket and you gave your bag to  Lawrence and your marched up to the Bop Consulate.  When you reached the Bop Consulate you  gave your  bag to - I mean you stood there at the back with - with  Nkosinathi.
And then at some stage after the memoranda's had to be over, you then gave him the grenade to - to  launch it.  That's what they said to me, but  I didn't speak much to them,  what I just said to them - I said  to them look  that story of yours you won't find a market anywhere for it.  It won't be bought anywhere where you go, because I knew there was no such person like  Thembikosi - I beg your pardon Nkosinathi that day.
But I said to them look - that's what I said -  I am using the words I exactly told them - I said you won't find a market anywhere for that story.  Well I think they thought I was lying when - when I say that.
And as days go on,  I realised that these people were becoming you know serious with their  story and it was at that point  then - then I decided that you must remember - as I said earlier, when this thing happened - nobody said to me I - I must not accept Lawrence, nobody placed me under pressure to say you know I must not speak about what I saw.
I took it out of my own you know not to speak - so when I realised these people - this  police are becoming so serious about this matter of Nkosinathi - I then decided to tell them the truth.  I told them the truth - I told them what the whole situation and that situation they have it in their files.  If they produce their files  they will find that I told them exactly what happened.
It seems to me they didn't  believe me, at that stage I realised that these people, they were just - they wanted me to confirm their story which was not true.   And the story that is the truth that I tell them - they don't believe it.
I then decided to go on a hunger strike.  I went on a hunger strike for about ten  days and at some stage I went to the hospital and they were  coming  repeatedly to visit me you know just to get me to confirm the story - they wanting me to  confirm this story of Nkosinathi.
So I realised that this was now  a lost case - there was nothing I could talk with this people anymore, because they don't believe the truth, they believe something that I did not know they take it there.   After some days then came to me and said look if you stop this hunger strike we are going to charge you and so on -  I said no, that's okay and then I stopped.  Then they sent a Major - no it's a senior officer, I don't know is it Niewoudt or Mostert - one of the two.  He then confirmed it to me - I then stopped the hunger strike.  They then charged me - really they did so, they charged me.
And then at that stage they told me no, now you've got access to legal representatives and so on and of course during that time also there was this Magistrate who used to come and - who use to come and ask you know for - for what - what complaints we - we had and so on and I did not - I did not speak anything with him you  know.  I didn't talk anything with him.
So after  that the police then decided to charge us and they did so and - well  I thought they were joking but they really brought the charge sheets and I could see that Nkosinathi's name on this thing.  We did also at that stage I did receive a lawyer, I was visited by  an attorney Gullah  Makawaray and then they charged us  -  I don't recall what the date was, but they took  us to court.
It was the first time I then met Nkosinathi,  I then I asked him how do you get involved in this matter and then he told me a long story of how you know the police were pressurising him and so on - otherwise I will leave that to him, he will talk about it.
But I then said to him no I understand - I understand and I believe you that you, you are innocent and you don't  know this matter.  We appeared in court and were then taken to prison.  All right  we appeared un-represented that morning because advocate Gullah Makawaray  arrived late, but then he did meet us afterwards.  We were then taken - we were then taken to the prison, and then we then waited and so on but   I then received a visit from the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League.  It was then - he was the first person I ever spoke - it was the first time I  spoke - I ever spoke about this matter.
I then told him actually well this is what happened and he then took it up I think with the - with the leadership and so on.
And I was further interrogated or  questioned by some - by some of the people from the Security Department of the ANC on - on this matter.  And then ultimately then we were put on - we were put on trial.  But then at that stage I was told  and of course we were represented then by Advocate Denzil Potgieter.
Then at that stage just before the trial begun I was told that Smiles had - had agreed to come forward and to own up to what he had - he had done.  But apparently the police initially agreed that okay if he signs an affidavits and do all sorts of things they will - they will then you know  arrest him instead.  But I don't know what happened and the police apparently changed their mind.  That is what I was - I  was told and instead insisted that we call Smiles as a witness.
We then decided no you know we could not do this thing because what was happening during that same period the police were busy wanting to drag other people into this matter, saying all sorts of things and intimidating  people saying before they see us - they  must obviously expect - exploiting the ignorance of people of well -  before they see us they must first ask permission from them.  
Of course that practise was stopped by  the prison people who  said that is nonsense, it is not necessary to us -  permission from police. Because at time as I said because of this intimidation of the police many of my old comrades had actually abandoned me.  Even those chaps who were with me you know who possibly could - who possibly could say what the police were saying, it is not true you know.  Even they had fled.
It's only recently that these guys have appeared I think in the absence of that  threat, that they have come forward and said but you know we never believed what the police said you know because the activities were so serious this one other comrade of us, in fact he left  political activity altogether and they knew what the police were saying, were lying - he knew - he know that.  But because of their activities - their threats of arresting people and doing those sort of things.
We were then put on trial -  with that obviously cooked evidence.   We then battled with that evidence, but they seemingly had enough resources to bring in all sorts of false witnesses to the extent that they brought in even our own comrade, and then our comrade then [intervention]