Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

MR MOHLABA: Who arrested you, did somebody run after you and arrest you, can you give us more details?  When were you arrested, while you persuade while you were running away or this arrest followed some days after the incident, can you explain in full details?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: There was no one running after us after we had done this offence.
	The police just told me to stop and I stopped.  The one got out of the car and he asked me where the gun was, and I told him that I did not have a gun.  He searched me and he did not find a gun.  They arrested me.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it on the say day of Mr Mkhabela's shooting, that was the question?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was on the same day.

MR MOHLABA: It would appear that when you stood trial for this very offence ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, I don't want to interfere with your evidence in chief, but shouldn't you exhaust this question before you proceed to something else.  You wanted to find out how long after the incident he was arrested, he says it was on the same day, but how long after the incident had occurred, was he arrested?  He hasn't responded to that question.
	He was arrested the same day, was it a few minutes, was it a few hours, was it after some time after the incident had occurred that he was arrested?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I was arrested a few minutes after this incident, it was not even five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day did you ...

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was about, I do not remember the time well, but it was something to five.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you.  You have mentioned that Peter is the person who pulled the trigger and shot at Mkhabela, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Did you mention this before in your trial?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I did not mention it.

MR MOHLABA: Is there any reason why you did not tell the Court that it was in fact Peter who pulled the trigger and killed Mkhabela?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, when we operated and one comrade got arrested, he was not supposed to reveal other names.  You had to sacrifice so that other comrades could continue with the struggle.

MR MOHLABA: You also mentioned that the R50-00 which you had in your hand when you approached Mkhabela was given to you by one of your comrades there, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: And was that ever mentioned to the trial Court when you stood trial?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I did not mention it.

MR MOHLABA: Can you explain what you said to the Court with regard to the R50-00?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I was asked whether I was the person who had a R50-00 note, I said yes but that I was given this note, this R50-00 by one comrade, I did not mention that.
	I did not mention other comrades as well who were involved in this incident.

MR MOHLABA: There is a mention in the court record that, if the Chair can bear with me, apparently your version to the Court was that you had some money which you wanted to change because you were to collect some children.  Is this what you mentioned to the Court?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is what I told the Court, but it was not the truth.

MR MOHLABA: So what you are saying to this Commission is that some of your version, some of the aspects which you have mentioned to the Court, was in fact a lie, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Any reason why you lied to the Court?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The reason was that I was fighting for my survival.  Had I told the Court who was with me, it was going to be clear that there were many of us in this incident.
	I just told the Court that I was alone when this incident happened.

MR MOHLABA: Let me take you through your application form.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Mohlaba.  Are you saying if you had told the truth of what had happened, which I would presume would include the fact that, fundamentally the fact that the killing of Mr Mkhabela was not criminal, but was politically motivated, more people would have been arrested in particular the members of your Unit that you have already enumerated?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Can you please repeat the question, I did not quite understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that had you told the Court the truth that Mr Mkhabela's killing had been planned by you as SDU members, and was politically motivated and was not just a criminal act, more people would have been arrested and those would have included the members of your Unit that you have enumerated before this Committee today?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Mohlaba.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  Let me take you through your application form.  I refer the Committee to page 46 of the paginated bundle, paragraph 11(b).  You were asked to give amongst other things, names and addresses of a person who approved or gave orders and there is a mention there of comrade Skananda, Bongani Christopher Khumalo, and it would appear that there is also a signature of this person appearing on that paragraph.  Is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, won't you please just tell us how you know that there is a signature of Mr Skananda appearing on the application?  That evidence has not been placed before us?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair, I am unable to say that, but there is in fact a signature next to a date, almost at the foot of the application form.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you just put it to Mr Selahle, find out whose signature that is without leading him?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  Do you, Mr Selahle, see the signature?

CHAIRPERSON: Whose signature appears next to MK?  Whose signature appears next to the words MK?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It is Commander Skananda's signature.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it get to your application form?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I heard long before about this name and I met him in  prison, he was assisting us when we filled these forms in, that is how his signature appeared on that page.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you had heard about him, but you had never met him until when he came to the prison to assist in the completion of the application form?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I met him in prison.  He was also serving a sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I thought he was the one who, I thought you say in your application form, you were under his command?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I have explained that I heard from my Commander about Commander Skananda.

CHAIRPERSON: In your application form in response to a question under paragraph 11(b), which sought to elicit the name of the person who had approved the order for you to commit the act for which you are applying for amnesty, you say it was Commander Skananda and that you were under his command?
	How did you know that he had given an order when you had never met him?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I was still going to that point of how I met Commander Skananda.  When we filled in these forms, I asked Commander Skananda and he told us that it is not a problem, he would take the responsibility, even though we discussed this issue with the comrades.
	He was very close with Mabutsha, that is how his name appears in these forms.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot understand what you mean by saying that Skananda said he would take the responsibility.  Did he say he would take the responsibility of being a Commander when he never was a Commander of your Unit?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Skananda was a Commander, but at the time of committing this offence, he did not command us.   In prison, when we were filling in these forms, he was there and he told us that he knew Commander Mabutsha and he told us that it was not a problem to fill in this question, he would take responsibility, even though he was not involved.
	It is only because he knew our Commander Mabutsha that he came to our assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you put in the name of your Commander?  Why was it difficult for you to put in the name of your Commander Mabutsha?