Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he did.

GEORGE BIZOS: How many punches did you see him throw?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is impossible for me to say, it is impossible for me to say.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see Mr Snyman throwing punches?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I don't think Mr Snyman was part of that struggle when we were trying to restrain Mr Biko.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see Mr Beneke throwing punches?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It is possible, but I have no independent recollection of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see Mr Marx throwing punches?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, we know how Mr Biko died and why he died, because a tremendous blow was administered, was what the leader of your Branch used in a telegram, that force was applied to one side of his head of such intensity that it threw the head back, so that the soft matter of the brain smashed on the opposite side of his skull.
	Can you tell us whether one or other of the punches thrown by Mr Siebert, may have caused that injury that led to Mr Biko's death?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairman, from what I can remember of the post-mortem or the inquest, even the two Doctors, Dr Laubscher and I think Dr Procter could not agree on what exactly caused Mr Biko's death.
	It is difficult for me who is a layman, to try and explain what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, is it possible that Mr Biko's head was injured as a result of his head slapping back with great force because he had been hit by a fist?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It is possible, but from a layman's point of view I would rather say that it was more probable when he fell against the wall.
	I didn't see anybody who did that, because in any case if anybody planted a blow like that, his hand would have been terribly swollen.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, we don't know whether Mr Siebert's hand was in fact swollen or not, and having regard to the degree of perjury that you all indulged in after the event, hiding that fact would have been a matter of not great concern, would it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Chairperson, I am here to tell the truth.  I believe or I can remember that I actually hit Mr Beneke by mistake and he mentioned this afterwards.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: So, one would immediately have noticed that, so no, I don't think so.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will deal with Mr Beneke and how you hit him and we will argue who might have gone bezerk there, you or Mr Biko, having regard that you finished up beating your colleague.
	Let's leave that aside for the moment.  You  made an affidavit in your application.  Where can we find anywhere in your application that punches were thrown?  Show us where you mentioned that punches were thrown in your affidavit, you've come here to tell the truth.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairman, may I please have a moment to look for the particular place?  Page 17, I don't know how your bundle of documents has been paginated.  It says there that blows were exchanged backwards and forwards, and people were shunted around.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is page 17, paragraph 17.

GEORGE BIZOS: That is the passage that we put to your colleagues who didn't speak about it in their applications.
	Now what was the purpose of the punches being thrown?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: According to my observation, it was to defend themselves and to restrain Mr Biko, because Mr Biko was also dishing out blows.

GEORGE BIZOS: There were four of you, at least four and possibly five.  How do you restrain a person by throwing punches at him when there are four or five of you?
	Let me put the question that I put to your colleagues.  Each one takes a hand or a foot and you've got one to spare - that is how to restrain a person.  Not to throw punches, nor to beat him with a hosepipe?  Do you agree with the general proposition that I have made to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It is not that simple, it is not as simple as Mr Bizos has put it now.  Mr Biko was a fairly well-built man, and to just restrain him by grabbing hold of him would have been a totally different matter.  If wouldn't then have been necessary to trade blows or to restrain him, but nobody actually could succeed in grabbing hold of him, after he got to his feet after the incident at the wall.
	There was a whole struggle and how do you then grab hold of somebody and when blows are exchanged and in that struggle it is very difficult to actually restrain somebody.  I am not exactly sure, but that is how I saw it at the time.

GEORGE BIZOS: Even if we were to confine ourselves to the evidence that you have given in this case, having regard to the fact that you beat up Mr Jones with a hosepipe and you used a hosepipe on Mr Biko, it would appear that the hosepipe was an instrument of choice for your torturing people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, not as far as Mr Biko was concerned.  It was to distract him because I was scared that this struggle would become out of control - and it actually worked.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you think that your beating Mr Biko with a hosepipe on a number of occasions, actually helped the situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I think so because my other colleague immediately got the chance to grab hold of him, that is how I saw it.

GEORGE BIZOS: You and your colleagues were in what we may describe as a self defence situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that the infliction of the blows by the hosepipe is nothing that you have to apologise for, or feel responsible for?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It may be.

GEORGE BIZOS: It is more than may be.  It is a logical conclusion from your own evidence.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, it is a method which I used to try to restrain Mr Biko.

GEORGE BIZOS: You used no unlawful force whatsoever on Mr Biko on your version?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: This was only during this struggle, this was the violence which I applied then, and whether I exceeded my limits, I don't know, that is debateable.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am talking about whether it is your case that you were entitled in the circumstances, to attempt to subdue Mr Biko together with your colleagues and that you acted in self defence and that you had done nothing wrong, in that regard?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, but Chairperson what about when we handcuffed him to the bars.  That was also part of the assault.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will deal with your putting him up crucifixion style in due course.  The question was whether you feel any responsibility whatsoever for having beaten him up with a hosepipe?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I hit him with this hosepipe.

GEORGE BIZOS: We know that, but do you persist that you were in the circumstances, entitled to do that because you were really associating yourself with your colleagues in order to subdue him, because he had gone bezerk?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Once again, interpretation was important here, maybe we exceeded our bounds.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you don't feel that you have exceeded your bounds?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Maybe I did.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If it wasn't for this rugby scrum as you put it, that took place there, I don't know how many rugby scrums we still have left in the country, but that is irrelevant, if it hadn't been for this rugby scrum situation you wouldn't have taken up the hosepipe?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: If in fact you acted in self defence and leaving aside now the hanging up of Mr Biko, even though his feet may have been on the ground, leaving that aside for the moment, you actually believe that you did no wrong?