Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

JOHN MNDEBELE: Just to correct a year.  It's not '96 it's '86.

MR PATEL: Yes, thank you.  If we continue
"The same advice was received by the committee from Jacob Israel Mabena, the secretary general of COSATU, Eastern Transvaal and the ANC chairperson for Secunda."

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Mr Mabena is also an applicant before this Committee today, is that not correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Correct.
MR PATEL
	"It was clear that the SAP were protecting and assisting the Black Cats in their reign of terror and that no reliance could be placed on their intervention.  Their reluctance to intervene and their assistance rendered to the Black Cats can be gleaned from annexure B hereto being the submissions made to the Goldstone Commission regarding their investigative procedures.  Annexure (I would imagine it should be B) is not intended to be exhaustive of the SAP complicity in this matter."
Do you agree?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Ja.

MR PATEL: Just for the sake of clarity, Mr Chairman, annexure B being the submissions are actually contained in Volume two (2) of the documents before you.
"During October 1990 and at a public meeting, despite the protests of the Executive members of SANCO, the community demanded the physical removal of the Black Cats.  Thereafter the Executive members attempted a number of peace initiatives with church ministers acting as mediators to resolve the dispute without any success.  By this time the terror and destruction campaign had spread to surrounding areas such as Secunda, Davel, Breyten and Piet Retief.  It became apparent that the ANC, as an organisation, had to protect itself from destruction by a determined enemy who was prepared to use any means whatsoever to achieve it's objectives.  Measures had to be taken to defend the ANC, many of which measures the committee realised would have to be carried out in emergency situations, requiring immediate decisions on the part of its members."
Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Now, in consequence, you, Nkonyane, Zwane and Mkhwanazi formed a special committee to consider more drastic steps to remedy the situation and to put into practice the orders received from the ANC Command?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Ja.
MR PATEL
"Despite the situation of turmoil, the committee at this stage earmarked only one person for assassination, namely Jwi Zwane.  Mkhwanazi was instructed to have Jwi Zwane assassinated.  Mkhwanazi in turn instructed Mzwandile Gushu to carry out this task.  Gushu was also instructed in general to bring the situation under control.  There was an implied instruction to Gushu that he was to recruit assistance from SDUs, self-defence units, in the local community and he was to obtain arms and ammunition, and to finance these operations from whatever source possible, including armed robberies."
Would you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Ja.
MR PATEL
	"In furnishing such instructions you and the committee realised that civilians could be injured.  However, the risk thereof could not be allowed to prevent the urgent need that had arisen for retaliation and the response required of a responsible organisation to deal with the situation."
Would you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Ja.
MR PATEL
	"Mr Jwi Zwane was assassinated in July 1991, but his death had little, if any, effect on the violent attacks being waged by the Black Cats.  Unfortunately three other people, namely Happy Mhlongo, Eric Nkosi and Sibusiso Tito Nkosi were injured in the attack on Jwi Zwane."
Do you confirm those events?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.
MR PATEL
"In February 1992 the special committee resolved to assassinate Chris Ngwenya.  Once again, Mkhwanazi instructed Gushu to carry out this task.  In March 1992 Chris Ngwenya was assassinated and to a large extent the attacks by the Black Cats decreased although not completely.  In the perpetration of the assassination of Chris Ngwenya, one Lindiwe Nkosi, a member of the IFP Women's League, was also killed and Thembisile Nkambule was wounded."
Do you confirm those events?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Mr Mndebele, at the time that these offences were committed were you affiliated to any organisation?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: And could you tell the Committee to which organisations you were affiliated?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I was a member of the ANC and a member of SANCO.

MR PATEL: Are you affiliated to any organisations at present?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: What is your present occupation?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I'm a member of the ANC.  I'm in the Executive.

MR PATEL: Right.  If you would turn to page eighty six (86) of the bundle of papers before you.

MR SANDI: Sorry, Mr Patel, if I may ask a question just to get further clarity on the very last point by the witness.  He says he is a member of the ANC Executive.  Which Executive is this?  Is this the ANC Executive at local level, provincial level, regional level?  What level is this?

JOHN MNDEBELE: At the local level.

MR SANDI: Thank you, Mr Patel.

MR PATEL: Thank you, sir.  If you turn to page eighty eight (88).  This is your statement and these are your submissions.  You say that
"At all stages you were acting as a member of the ANC, either under direct or implied orders of the ANC.  More particularly, in emergency situations requiring an immediate decision."
You continue and you say that you believe that you were engaged in a just war as a member of a liberation organisation and you fully accept responsibility for your actions.  In so doing, you say you were furthering the aims and objectives of the ANC.  Do you confirm that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: You submit further that the IFP, the South African Police and Government authorities were viewed by the ANC as the enemies of the ANC given the atrocities committed by them against the ANC and members of the community.  Is that correct?  Do you confirm?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: You say that in the main you were driven to the offences referred to above to promote stability in the area.  By doing whatever was necessary to quell the violence and to defend ANC structures, members and the community at large.  You say further that you at no stage acted out of a sense of personal malice against any of the victims and nor were you motivated by any personal gain.  Is that true and correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, are you satisfied that this applicant has dealt with his particular application?

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.  You will note that this particular applicant claims amnesty in respect of, as it's detailed in the schedule which is contained on page twenty (20) basically relating to the murder of Jwi Zwane, the attempted murder of Happy Mhlongo, Sibusiso Tito Nkosi and Eric Nkosi.  That relates to the one incident in respect of which he, in his role as this special committee that was formed, gave an instruction to Jabi Mkhwanazi who in turn instructed one Gushu to carry out the deed.  The second instance is one in respect of the murder of Chris Ngwenya, the murder of Lindiwe Nkosi and the attempted murder of Thembisile Nkambule.  That's another incident also arising through the same method as the previous one where there was a meeting of the special committee.  The third incident in respect of which he claims amnesty, is the general instruction to set up self-defence units, were to illegally arm themselves.  This too is covered, as I see, in the background history that the applicant has read out to the Committee.

MR SANDI: Are those the only applications he wishes to place before this Committee?  Nothing further?

MR PATEL: That is correct, sir.  It's only in respect of those two incidents and a general instruction to form self-defence units at the time when they returned from their meeting with the late Mr Chris Hani.