Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, I was aware he was to be charged for a bombing of Lamontville offices and for handling weaponry and distribution thereof, but the fact that he was acquitted by the Court, I accepted that.

MR MALAN: Why do you accept that he had to be killed?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Because the Court was the one forum that he would have continued with his actions, he was a committed combatant.

CHAIRPERSON: You thought he was, but you had not been able to prove it, had  you?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, I personally had not been able to.

CHAIRPERSON: The police had not been able to prove it?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Not during the court case, no Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: The only point Mr Chairman, least there is any confusion, is that I was really trying to clarify that there is no suggestion of criticism on the Court for having found, discharged him.  If there was evidence, of court the Court was correct in doing so.  This is the only point I am trying to make, but the reason why Bhila had to be killed in the estimation of this witness, that is another matter.  That is the next question.
	I am trying to deal with that issue now, and he has answered Mr Chairman, and that is that he considered that Bhila, they knew that he had done these things, whatever the Court found, they knew he had done this from their information and he was, they knew also that he would continue with his activities, so that answer has also been given Mr Chairman.
	You, I think we have reached the point where you are at the pistol shooting range, you are there.  As far as you can recall, he wasn't interrogated by anyone else, certainly not by you because you wouldn't have anything to interrogate Bhila about, and did you then later on that evening, accompany the Husky kombi which was referred to in evidence here, away from the pistol shooting range?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Were you in that car or did you follow with your own car?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I was in that vehicle Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Well, just take us from there and take us through the facts.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the following personnel got into that vehicle, it was myself, McCarter, Rosslee, Bosch, Mr Bhila and Lembede.

MR VISSER: Lembede, and where were you on your way to?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: We were headed off to a spot that Mr Lembede was familiar with, which is in the Umbumbulu area somewhere, at a place that I  am not able to get back to.

MR VISSER: Sorry, I didn't hear the last, you dropped your voice and I couldn't hear you?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It is a place in the Umbumbulu area, it is a spot that I am not able to get back to Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, while you are on that point, we discussed last evening, did we not, the request that came through Mr Ngubane acting for the family of Mr Bhila, as to the possibility of discovering where that spot is?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Perhaps you could just tell the Committee what you told me on the probabilities of you finding it again?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: The probabilities of finding it, are not good Mr Chairman.  It was my first time to go there.

MR VISSER: Have you been there since?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I have not Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You travelled there in the dark, that is common cause?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you travel with a straight road until you got to this particular cliff?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Not at all Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What was the position?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: We left the tarred road, turned - I am not sure if we turned after Umbumbulu area or somewhere else, we turned to the right and thereafter, we turned many times, and I am unable to state where we were.

MR VISSER: Yes, but if there is any assistance that you can give at all, you are quite happy and willing to give such assistance?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I will, indeed.

MR VISSER: Yes.  All right, you are on your way to the spot which you say you probably won't be able to find again, and what, did anything occur along the road, along the way?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: We had a puncture along the way.

MR VISSER: Yes, and then eventually, did you come to this particular spot?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Eventually, the vehicle was stopped at that particular spot, yes.

MR VISSER: Tell us what you can remember about what transpired there.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: At that spot, Mr Bhila was taken out of the vehicle and taken a walk to the edge.  He was seated down.  He was blindfolded.

MR VISSER: When was this blindfold placed in position?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: The blindfold was placed I think, at the rifle range.

MR VISSER: At the rifle range already?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Right.  Was he also cuffed?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: By his feet or by his hands?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Wristcuffs.

MR VISSER: Wristcuffs.  All right, and what happened then?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He was then sitting down and Mr McCarter had one shot, shot him once.

MR VISSER: Shot him once, where on his body did he shoot him?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: In the head.

MR VISSER: In the head.  What happened to Mr Bhila after the shot had been fired?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He lay down, was straightened out.

MR VISSER: All right.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Flattened out.

MR VISSER: And what happened then?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Then Mr Rosslee shot him in the head.

MR VISSER: Can you recall today clearly how many times?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, not specifically, but I recall another two shots, I think, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Another two shots?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Two shots went off.

MR VISSER: In total?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: In total.

MR VISSER: One and perhaps another one?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: One, and perhaps another, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So, two by Rosslee?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes sir.

MR VISSER: Two by Rosslee?  Do you remember anything else that might have occurred while Mr Rosslee fired his shot?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Definitely Mr Chairman, he had problems with the feeding of the firearm he was making use of.  He was cocking it, obviously to clear the stoppage that had happened.

MR VISSER: You know, when you and Mr Rosslee refer to cocking it, one gets the impression of cocking it with your thumb, bringing back the firing arm, is that what you mean?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, that is incorrect, that is not the impression.

MR VISSER: What are you talking about when you say cocking it?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Pulling the slide right back.

MR VISSER: Wracking it in other words?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Wracking, it depends what shooting club you (indistinct).

MR VISSER: Yes, I suppose so, all right.  You remember observing that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, I did, I did Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: If Rosslee had fired seven shots, would you have remembered that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I very definitely would have remembered that, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.  There was a suggestion made particularly by Bosch and reference thereto also made by Rosslee in his Exhibit B and in his amnesty application, to a certain Spyker Mhieza also having been present.
	First of all, or perhaps I should roll the two into one, did you see Spyker Mhieza there, either at the pistol shooting range or at the scene of the assassination on that particular day in question?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, Mhieza was not there on that day.

MR VISSER: He wasn't, you can state that positively?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I can state that (indistinct).

MR VISSER: After Mr Bhila had been shot, what happened then, I mean to Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Lembede and Mr McCarter then bent over the body, I presume they were taking off the handcuffs and he was then pushed over the side of the cliff Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Was it quite dark?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It was very dark Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Were you however able to make out outlines, silhouettes of bodies?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct sir.