Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR MGIDLANA: You see, the problem I have with you is that if you say you were the most junior person, certainly you can't have been getting instructions directly from the most senior person as you now put it that that should not have been the position.  Is there any reason why you did not tell the Committee that the position would be that instructions would come from the most senior person and I would then get them from the most immediate senior person to me?

MR DUKADA: No Mr Chairperson, the witness did not say that.  The witness didn't say that it was a policy of the branch that instructions would be issued by the most senior person and they would get them via his immediate superior.  He has just said that some of the instructions would come from the branch commander, he never said that all what he did in the security branch was an instruction from the branch commander but relayed to him through his immediate superior.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mgidlana, where are we getting with this, this to who gave instructions etc, this fine detail that we're getting to?  Is that disputed that or were instructions to the arrest or what is the situation?  We seemed to be getting bogged down here and we haven't even got to what happened after the detentions which is the subject matter of the application?

MR MGIDLANA: Chairperson, in actual fact I just wanted to find out whether or not - the way that it seems he says he operated was just that he will be sent as a member of the investigation unit.  He could not exercise his initiative to go and do a,b,c,d but I think it does seem that he says he was just a person to be sent around and not to do anything out of his own initiative.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what he did say was that he could do investigations but when it came to an arrest he operated on -he always operated on an instruction, he didn't use his discretion to arrest people, that's all.  He said with regard to investigations he was part of the investigating team.  I don't think too much swings on this now, we seem to be wasting time.

MR LAX: Unless of course your clients are saying that he acted on his own initiative and he didn't have instructions but then put it to him instead of beating around the bush.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you.  Was this also the pattern in relation to the assaults?  Would you assault anyone on your own initiative or is it that you'll also get instructions that so and so has got to be assaulted?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We would arrest a person and take that person to the branch commander.  The branch commander would ask questions.  If the branch commander is not satisfied he would bring that person to our office and he would tell us to interrogate him, assault him until we get the truth and we must not leave that person until we get the truth.

MR MGIDLANA: Alright.  There's one aspect to that I would like to get from you which relates to your mention of Maqekeza, you got yesterday.  You were saying that he went to Willowvale, Jaftha's shop, because you had been able to extract certain information from the late Dugard Maqekeza, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We tortured Mr Maqekeza, that is why he gave us information.  He did not give us information voluntarily.  We then went to Willowvale because of the information we got from him.

MR MGIDLANA: Before arresting Maqekeza is it correct that you had a arrested somebody else or somebody else had been arrested by the SAP and was brought down to yourselves at the Transkei Security Police?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: If you can remind me maybe I can recall that person?

MR MGIDLANA: I know that his surname was Gaba, G-A-B-A?
A Mr Gaba.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not see him.  Maybe if I saw him, I forgot him but if he is the person that I saw I could be able to point him out.

MR MGIDLANA: Furthermore, is it not correct that after having interrogated Maqekeza he led you to somebody else by the surname of Makubela who was a teacher in Nglove?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: And that it is this Makubela who then took you to the Jafta shop, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it that you had forgotten about this chain of events or that you just wanted to create an impression that it was Maqekeza who actually led you directly to Jafta home?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I said that Maqekeza took us to Willowvale, I did not say that he took us to Mr Jafta's house or shop, I did not say that yesterday.  I said that Mr Maqekeza took us to Willowvale.

MR MGIDLANA: And you also did not say that it's somebody else who took you to the Jafta home?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not give details yesterday when I was giving evidence.  If you want me to give details I can do that.

MR MGIDLANA: No I'll ask you to give details when I led them but otherwise what I wanted to confirm with you is that this is the correct chain of events so I've got that.
	Now when you got to Makubela he was also interrogated, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He was arrested by the soldiers, that is Mr Makubela.

MR MGIDLANA: And this was the day before the incident at the Jafta's property?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was the same night.

MR MGIDLANA: Isn't it that when you got to the Makubela place were there some other security branch members other than the group you were travelling with from Umtata who were already there?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was the security branch from Willowvale.

MR MGIDLANA: By the time you arrived the security branch from Willowvale had already arrested Makubela, is that so?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Do I need to start from the beginning of the story?  We arrived in Willowvale with Makubela - I beg your pardon with Dugard Maqekeza.  We left Mr Maqekeza at the police station in Willowvale because he told us that the terrorists were together with Mr Makubela the terrorists were together with Mr Makubela.  We didn't want to go to Mr Makubela's alone, we asked for reinforcements from Butterworth and then Butterworth sent soldiers and members of the security branch.
	From Willowvale in town to Mr Makubela's the soldiers took over the operation.  We got instructions from them because we did not have a lot of facts.  We then arrived there at about 3 a.m.  Mr Makubela was taken out of the house, he was then arrested.  He was taken out of the house by the soldiers, he was asked questions.  He then said that the last time he saw these people they were at the shop, Mr Jafta's shop.  The soldiers then went back, they said that they were not investigators, we can take Mr Makubela with us.  We then went with Mr Makubela, we arrived in Mr Jafta's shop with him.  That is all.

MR MGIDLANA: My information from one of the people who were part of the soldiers that were there is that all they did was to cordon off the area and give you back up as it were, as you had requested.  So are you saying now your operation turned out to be the operation of the members of the defence force?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, if my colleague puts that question to the witness as it is, he must make sure that he'll call that person to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: If that aspect is relevant to the case?

CHAIRPERSON: He can put it, he doesn't have to call him but he can put it there for comment but he didn't say it was - correct me if I'm wrong, Mr Siqhola, my impression was that they called in the soldiers and the soldiers then arrested Mr Makubela and then handed him over to the police and then the police took over at the Jafta's shop, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't - the whole thing wasn't an operation by the defence force, I mean they had played a role but it wasn't theirs, that's what he said?