Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

MR TSOMELA: As I have said Sir, no such an arrangement was made with me but there were people on the ground responsible and commanders of the different units who were on the ground maybe to execute such raids.

ADV MEMANI: Are you saying that people under you at your police station would make arrangements regarding placing personnel at the disposal of policemen from another unit without your knowledge?

MR TSOMELA: As I have indicated, Sir, the fact is that for the sake of confidentiality, they should at times you know, arrange and go and do the necessary duty that they've seen.  They should ...[indistinct] further you know, making it loud making it known to each and every individual.

ADV MEMANI: And you were person who is central, as a head of the police station, they could speak to you and you only.

MR TSOMELA: The fact is that I say a sensitive issue could maybe be brought to my attention but any process of a normal investigation, that would not be so necessary that they should come to me and tell me about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a riot unit at Botshabelo?

MR TSOMELA: Come again, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: No, sorry, I withdraw that.  Did you have special constables at Botshabelo?

MR TSOMELA: I employed them, attested them in 1987 Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1986 we're talking about now, were there special constables at Botshabelo?

MR TSOMELA: If I'm still correct Sir, according to my knowledge I attested them in 1987, as I was given such an instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: It would appear that the members of the - as I read it, it's not clear, that it would seem that the police who assisted them were special constables at Botshabelo.

MR TSOMELA: That can be verified Sir but I still maintain my saying that special constables only came about in 1987.

ADV DE JAGER: Commissioner, according to the statement by Mr Ngo.
"After the rest, they were taken to the Botshabelo Police Station and we locked them in one control yard and Warrant Officer Mbanjani then showed us those comrades who were regarded as being the leaders".
 Can you perhaps help me, this control yard, where was it?

MR TSOMELA: Ja, it's a control yard in a sense that the detainees van, let me call it that way, the truck it's parked in there it's just big enough to take maybe, this big truck and lock it inside there.
	That's maybe the place that I understand that they might have been taken there of which they can maybe refer as the control yard, made in such a way that you know when the detainees are to be taken to court etc., they are within and encompassed in a controlled area.

ADV DE JAGER: He further alleges that
"They were stripped naked and they were made to run in a circle and they were hit with plastic shamboks"

MR TSOMELA: The trailers in front, are so transparent you know, that I don't understand how that can be done because it's at an open space where the members of the public do pass as well.  So I think that if that had been done, it's very outrageous because it's an open door with two building on the sides.
ADV DE JAGER
"And they were hit until they were tired and then they were given exercises and they were beaten on their private parts.  Some of the comrades started swelling and bleeding on their private parts and the comrades were screaming and crying"
I'm not sure at what time this happened but afterwards they were...  
"And when all the comrades were weak and could almost do nothing we spray with water and left them there so that they can be locked up after they have recovered from all the beating"
 Now if they've been locked up there - you said you inspected the people, the cells and so on.

MR TSOMELA: Yes every morning me today and before I knock off duty I must go through the cells and see to the wellbeing of the detainees.

CHAIRPERSON: And is a record kept of this?

MR TSOMELA: An occurrence book entry is made.

CHAIRPERSON: Of inspection of cells, no complaints that sort of thing.

MR TSOMELA: Exactly Sir, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So that would be in the occurrence book?

MR TSOMELA: That's right Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Have you seen people bleeding or their private parts swollen and heavily beaten up by plastic shamboks?

MR TSOMELA: Totally not Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have - sorry I'll go back to this now, do you have a riot unit or a riot squad at Botshabelo, Did you have?

MR TSOMELA: The actual public order policing were situated in Bloemfontein but they travelled around wherever ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But they were not part of the Botshabelo Police Station?

MR TSOMELA: Ja, they came sporadically, maybe time and again, whenever unrest emanated.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it appears from Mr Ngo's application that Colonel Stevenson was there in charge of the operation, did you know a Colonel Stevenson?

MR TSOMELA: I know Stevenson very well and if I'm not amazed, he was stationed at Bethlehem at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Bethlehem?

MR TSOMELA: Bethlehem.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Tsomela, I'm told that no policeman from one area can go to another area and arrest people without speaking to the station commander of that area.

MR TSOMELA: Like which people Sir?

ADV MEMANI: Well the people who normally arrest people.

MR TSOMELA: Okay, I think what we are dealing here with, it's Botshabelo situated within the District Commissioner of Bloemfontein and we had a unit branch of the security branch situated at Botshabelo and members of the public order policing are responsible under the District Commissioner, to curb all riots within the District Commissioner's area.

ADV MEMANI: Well what I was putting to you is that I am told that there's no policemen from one area can go into another area and arrest people without speaking to the local Station Commander.

MR TSOMELA: That's what I'm asking Sir.  Which policemen of a different area did come in?  From which area.

ADV MEMANI: Do you want to answer the question, do you want to confirm that no policemen from area can go into another area without speaking to the local Station Commander?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, Visser on record, may I come in here.  I have the same difficulty the witness has.  First of all my learned friend does not inform you or anybody else where he gets his information from and more importantly, Mr Chairman, and this is what is leading to confusion and I don't want to put words in the mouth of the witness, but he's got to distinguish, is he talking about security branch members?  Is he talking about riot squad members?  What's he talking about?  That's what's confusing us all, Mr Chairman.  If he could be a little bit more specific I'm sure the witness can be very helpful in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Also I don't know if it's relevant but the impression I got from the witnesses, does Botshabelo fall into the same district as Bloemfontein?

MR TSOMELA: Under the same district commission of Bloemfontein by those days, Sir and even at the present moment falling then, now, under the area commission of Bloemfontein still.

ADV MEMANI: Now, would you like to answer the question which I put to you, that no policemen from one area can go into another area without speaking to the local Station Commander?

CHAIRPERSON: Well you've been asked to explain what you mean from one area, policemen from one area.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, to save time I'll go directly to the next question.
	Mr Tsomela, my instruction are that policemen from Bloemfontein would not have gone to Botshabelo and arrested people without speaking to the Station Commander at Botshabelo.