Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

DR KLATZOW: I want to put it to you Captain Mitchell, that had that information come out, it would have sunk SAA deeper than the Helderberg.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Probably, probably, but let's get back to the first one please doctor.  That Captain, no Captain will fly with that kind of fire, no Captain.

DR KLATZOW: He thought he had it out.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Sorry Sir, sorry.

DR KLATZOW: He thought he had it out.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Sorry, I'm emphatic about that.  Furthermore, if there was any kind of fire - look you're quite right about a cushion catching light and they put it out with a fire extinguisher and they sit with it, if there was a fire on board that aeroplane earlier in the day, which you are suggesting, I can guarantee you that any Captain would - you'd have a man sitting there until you landed at that emergency place.  I mean, you must be stupid to fly, I mean you're putting your neck on the line.
 That doesn't work like that doctor, it really doesn't.  Please accept my word.  I am a pilot, I've got lots of experience, I know what pilots think.

DR KLATZOW: And you have, despite your experience, you have a deep dark secret to cover up?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No Sir, I can give you my word, really I  haven't.  Stupid I may be but I'm not covering anything up, sorry.

DR KLATZOW: You have every reason to cover up.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, no.

DR KLATZOW: Because you were at the centre of it.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Oh no.

DR KLATZOW: You have every reason to prevaricate and to lie about it.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I'm not lying.

DR KLATZOW: Whereas the people who have made these statements have no reason whatsoever to lie.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, sorry.

DR KLATZOW: You have not given us one adequate explanation for any of the things that I've put to you.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I've disagreed with you on them, yes.

DR KLATZOW: Of course you have but you haven't given one adequate explanation.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I'm sorry, I've told you about the HF which is a very, very valid process and I hope you take not of it because your whole case falls apart when you look at that.  Secondly, when you look at the eating process of which men eat in the aeroplanes, that certainly is a most logical process and I can give you evidence on many Captains like that Sir, many.   Furthermore, the process of a Captain and a fire, Captains will land doctor, Captains will land, they will not fly.  When you've got a fire and your necks is at stake, believe me there is one thing that we taught our Captains and that is why they are Captains, they will land.

DR KLATZOW: Why didn't he?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Because he got the fire much later.

DR KLATZOW: One last question Captain Mitchell, the cockpit voice recorder records the last half hour in the aircraft, is that correct?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: The last conversation immediately before that aircraft plunged into the sea some 130 odd nautical miles outside Mauritius was a conversation with Plaissance Airport?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Do you remember that?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: It started with: "This is Springbok 295, we have a smoke problem".

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Right.

DR KLATZOW: Have you heard that tape?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: That was the last half hour's conversation aboard that aircraft was it not?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Sorry?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Recorded, yes.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.  Can you give me - and that was a smoke problem, Captain Uys said: "We have a smoke problem", not: "We have a fire problem or anything else: "We have a smoke problem", okay?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: And you pilots are taught to be accurate in your communications, so if he had a smoke problem he had a smoke problem.  Can you give one - have you read the tape recording transcript of the CVR?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Is there one word of that conversation on that CVR?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Is there one word?

DR KLATZOW: Is there one word of the Plaissance conversation on the cockpit voice recorder?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Sorry?

DR KLATZOW: Is any of the conversation between Uys and Plaissance present on the cockpit voice recorder?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Show me where please.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Didn't it say land runway 14 ...[intervention]

DR KLATZOW: Show me where the conversation on the CVR corresponds in any way with the Plaissance tape recording, which is a good quality tape recording.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Isn't it there they say runway 14 at Plaissance ...[intervention]

DR KLATZOW: Don't say: "Isn't it".  Are you telling me that there is an overlap, that the words spoken by Uys on the cockpit voice recorder are mirrored in the conversation with Plaissance, and if you are telling me that I am going to invite you to show me, I have both conversations here.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Sorry, can I give to you what I understand  you're asking me?

DR KLATZOW: Yes.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: They were coming in to land and Dawie Uys says: "Plaissance, Springbok 294"

DR KLATZOW: Correct.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: "We started the descent on the way down.  We're down to 140.  We've got smoke problems", that's the tape I'm talking about.

DR KLATZOW: Yes.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: And then Plaissance comes back and says: "What is your height, what are you doing" ...[intervention]

DR KLATZOW: That's correct.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Then he says: "Cleared under 5000 feet ...[intervention]

DR KLATZOW: That's correct.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: And he says: "Runway 32 and 14" and he, that's the tape ...[intervention]

DR KLATZOW: Your memory is astounding, it is good and it is accurate.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: And I'm not being sarcastic.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, I've got the ...[intervention]

DR KLATZOW: Yes.  Show me one word of that conversation on the cockpit voice recorder.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: But isn't that the cockpit voice recorder tape?

DR KLATZOW: No, it isn't, it is the tape taken from the airport control tower at Plaissance.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Well there you are, I didn't know that.

DR KLATZOW: Well now you do, now show me one word of that conversation of the last half hour of that aircraft ...[intervention]

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I get your point, I get your point.

DR KLATZOW: Can you explain that?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No.

DR KLATZOW: I will explain it to you.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Okay.

DR KLATZOW: That the cockpit voice recorder ceased functioning before that last half hour.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: That's feasible.

DR KLATZOW: Now, in the light of that your denials are even more hollow about the fact that that cockpit voice recorder ceased functioning earlier.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I've haven't denied it and I'm not anti what you're saying, so I ...[intervention]

DR KLATZOW: Well, you could have fooled me Captain Mitchell.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No I'm not, they're not hollow, I'm just trying to ...[indistinct] together there so that we can link this together, that the cockpit voice recorder as well as the Plaissance tape don't match and so forth.  So you're saying that it could have been further back down there and hence the reason why it wasn't ...[intervention]

DR KLATZOW: Correct.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I hear you.  I haven't heard that concept before.

DR KLATZOW: Well, for a man who was at the centre of the investigation and a man of your experience ...[intervention]

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, no, hang on, I'm not at the centre of the investigation, sorry.