Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR ZWANE: Oooh we are having some drinks with her friends, Sitembiso.

MR VALLY: You and Sitembiso are drinking?

MR ZWANE: Yes.

MR VALLY: And then what happens?

MR ZWANE: While we are still sitting there some guy ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Right.

MR ZWANE: Yes, he sat with us in the house there, he had a parcel when he entered but it was wrapped, I can't recall with what ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Some guy entered, do you know his name?

MR ZWANE: By then I didn't know his name.

MR VALLY: Now?

MR ZWANE: Now the name is Oupa Sehere, Alex Oupa Sehere.

MR VALLY: So you didn't know his name at the time?

MR ZWANE: Yes I didn't know his name.

MR VALLY: But he had given you military training already?

MR ZWANE: Of course.

MR VALLY: But he had given you military training but you didn't know who he was?

MR ZWANE: He gave me training at that day.  When he entered the room I didn't who was this guy.

MR VALLY: He gave you military training that same day?

MR ZWANE: Of course, not military training as such, he taught me the use of an AK-47, not a military training as ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: You are sitting in Zinzi Mandela's bedroom and a man turns up with a wrapped up parcel and he gives you military training with an AK-47?

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MR VALLY: Your story is very improbable Mr Zwane, I really would like to pursue it further but we have got time pressures.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I find out Mr Vally, how much more have you got?

MR VALLY: Archbishop I am trying to drag things out of this witness and it's worrying me you know, there may be certain things which are true, certain things which are not true, what's worrying me is I want to get to the bottom of his role, what we know is he has been convicted of nine murders, he says that at least one murder, oh no, at least six murders he had the confession forced out of him.  He's admitted responsibility for three murders which he says were politically motivated ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: All I am trying to find out is ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I need to pursue this Archbishop, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Answer the question - how much more, because I mean ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Ten minutes Archbishop, is that too much?

CHAIRPERSON: I think, I mean because Mr Semenya and then we've got all of the - alright, try.

MR VALLY: Alright.  It's sounding very improbable but you got armed training that day on usage of an AK-47 by Oupa Sehere, he just came with a parcel, did he know you?

MR ZWANE: Oupa didn't know me.

MR VALLY: He didn't know you.

MR ZWANE: Ja he didn't know me ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Immediately in Zinzi's bedroom he offers you military training with an AK-47?

MR ZWANE: No he never entered and that happened.

MR VALLY: Explain to me quickly what happened.

MR ZWANE: Alright.

MR VALLY: I am sorry I am saying quickly but we have to do it fast.

MR ZWANE: Oupa entered the house and he sat there and it looked like (...indistinct) because he greeted us he sat there, Sitambiso came with a glass for him and we drank cold drinks with him, he put the parcels there.  At a later stage they were talking to Sitambiso, not me, he asked Sitambiso who I am and he told him I am Hlovo and I told him my other name and he unfolded the parcel of which he was in possession of and he asked me if I was in a position to use this.  I said no I wasn't taught of the use of.  Then he started dismantling it showing me how is it dismantled and how is it used and that was all.

MR VALLY: So now in this house which is constantly raided by police we have a Scorpion pistol in your executive bag, we have an AK-47 being shown to you in Zinzi's bedroom by Mr Oupa Sehere who has met you only the first time on that day.

MR ZWANE: Ja.

MR VALLY: And he tells you how to dismantle it, how to use it, alright.

MR ZWANE: Alright.

MR VALLY: What happens then?

MR ZWANE: And then as I have stated I had the Scorpion ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: In your executive bag, yes.

MR ZWANE: In my possession, and seeing the AK-47 on Oupa and hearing them talking with Sitembiso I realised that this was one of the MK guys.

MR VALLY: Fine.

MR ZWANE: And I showed him the Scorpion I was in possession of.

MR VALLY: Okay so you were preparing guns, what happens then?

MR ZWANE: And then Oupa said, because he was going to travel with taxis to the area called Zola, which was the distance from Orlando West, he said the AK-47 was not going to be comfortable ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: This is the first time you have met this man.

MR ZWANE: That's right.

MR VALLY: You assume he's an MK guerilla because he's got a gun, an AK-47?

MR ZWANE: I never only assumed, they had talked with Oupa Sehere ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Who is they?

MR ZWANE: It's Sitembiso.

MR VALLY: Sitembiso Buthelezi is the person you've described as Zinzi's boyfriend?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: So he knew Oupa Sehere?

MR ZWANE: It looked like he knew Oupa Sehere because ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: He looked like he knew Oupa Sehere.

MR ZWANE: Yes.

MR VALLY: So because he looked like he knew Oupa Sehere you assumed he was a comrade or a guerilla?

MR ZWANE: With the conversation ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Fine, okay, I have to move on, I am sorry, I know I need to drag this out a bit longer but I can't.  He says he's going to go in a taxi please give me your Scorpion machine pistol you'll keep my AK in the meantime, is that what happened?

MR ZWANE: That's what happened.

MR VALLY: So the person you met for the first time who looks like he was an MK guerilla gives you an AK-47, he goes off.

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: He then comes back and he says someone has stolen your Scorpion machine pistol.

MR ZWANE: He was robbed not stolen, he was robbed.

MR VALLY: It was robbed off him, okay.  And then he takes you with him?

MR ZWANE: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now how many of you did he take with him?

MR ZWANE: It was I, Sitembiso and about six other guys who were seated at the garage.

MR VALLY: So there were six people in the garage, there was you and Sitembiso ...(intervention)

MR ZWANE: No, no, no, I never said there were six people in the garage, I said it was I, Sitembiso and other about six boys who were at the garage.  There were not six at the garage.

MR VALLY: Okay let's go on.  There's the two of you, there's the six people seated at the garage, six boys, that's eight of you, how many people did he come with, this Oupa Sehere, when he told you he had been robbed?

MR ZWANE: He came with two people.

MR VALLY: That gives us now ten people.

MR ZWANE: Exactly.

MR VALLY: So there's ten of you now.  He came in his own car, is that right?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: And then the other car you used is Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's car?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Where was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and her daughter Zinzi when all this was happening?

MR ZWANE: Zinzi came at a certain stage in the room while it was I and Sitembiso and he left ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: While you and Oupa Sehere were comparing guns?

MR ZWANE: No before Oupa arrived.  He once came there ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Before Oupa.

MR ZWANE: Yes.

MR VALLY: And you didn't see her again?

MR ZWANE: No I didn't see her again.

MR VALLY: And where was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR ZWANE: I don't know where she was.

MR VALLY: She didn't know you had a gun in the house?

MR ZWANE: No she didn't know.

MR VALLY: Wasn't irresponsible of you to come into her house with a gun, wouldn't you have been putting her in danger?

MR ZWANE: Putting her into danger?

MR VALLY: Putting Mrs Madikizela-Mandela into danger, if someone has got arms on them in those times when Security Branch was raiding her house all the time like you say.

MR ZWANE: I didn't think so.

MR VALLY: You didn't think it was putting her into danger?

MR ZWANE: No I didn't think so.