Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed?

MS GABRIEL: Mr Chairman, Mrs Ninela is ready to be examined.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, have you any questions to put to her?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mrs Ninela, the address which you gave to the Committee where you stay at the moment, at kwaNcolosi, is that also the house where you lived in 1987 and 1988?

MRS NINELA: Most of the time I was at work.  I was at home only on weekends and that was fortnightly.

CHAIRPERSON: But that was your house?  That's the question.

MRS NINELA: Yes.

MR VISSER: You told the Committee that Blessing Ninela lived with you while he was at school.  Was it at that particular house?

MRS NINELA: Yes.

MR VISSER: After he left school, did he go and live somewhere else?

MRS NINELA: He sometimes lived with his brother at kwaMakutha.

MR VISSER: Didn't he live at a house in Inanda?

MRS NINELA: That happened after there was a collision between the Zulus and Xhosas or Mpondos, something of that sort at kwaMakutha.

MR VISSER: Can you remember when that was?

MRS NINELA: 1986, if I can remember well.

MR VISSER: Could it have been in 1988?  1987?

MRS NINELA: Yes, as far as 1987.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MRS NINELA: And sometime in 1987 I asked him to stay with the sisters at Ncolosi because there was a threatening situation at the place that time.

MR VISSER: What was that threatening situation?

MRS NINELA: There were some people who used to threaten to do something.  Sometimes they just said they wanted to kill everybody at the house.  That I heard it with my ears.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Were the police after Blessing Ninela during 1987 or 1988?

MRS NINELA: Pardon?

MR VISSER: Was Blessing a fugitive from the police during 1987 and 1988?

MRS NINELA: I'm not really sure about that.

MR VISSER: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether the police were looking for him?

MRS NINELA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether the police were looking for him?

MRS NINELA: I didn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know.

MR VISSER: Yes.  When you stated in your statement in bundle 2 at page 56 in the 4th paragraph that,
"Blessing was forced to leave the kwaMakutha area"
actually you said "forced to flee the area", why was that?

MRS NINELA: There was a collision between the two nations, that was Zulu and Mpondos, there was a fight there, so he had to flee to this house at Inanda.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Wasn't it because there was fighting going on between Inkatha Freedom Party and the ANC supporters?

MRS NINELA: I haven't got that idea.  What was reported was that the Zulus were fighting with Mpondos.

MR VISSER: And something you didn't tell us in your evidence but which you said in your statement at page 56 is that you actually obtained the house in Inanda from an Indian family.  Mr Chairman, I'm referring to the 4th paragraph.

MRS NINELA: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: On page 56.

MR VISSER: On page 56.  And you stated that it was because of the fighting and because the Inanda dam was going to flood the area where you lived.

MRS NINELA: Yes, there was that the dam would be built, the dam wasn't there at that moment, it wasn't built as yet and we were told that the dam was going to be built and some of the people of the place were refusing to move for the dam to be built and I understand the people who came to report that said if at all you don't want to move, you must prepare a boat for which you will float on the water when the dam is finished and we were not told who was to move, who was not going to move, so I was worried.  What would happen if I had to move, where would I go?  I was just looking for accommodation where I could move to before I was, I had to be drowned in that water.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MRS NINELA: Because I didn't know where to go to.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR VISSER: I take it that the dam was never built, because you're still living there where you lived all the time?

MRS NINELA: It is existing now.

MR VISSER: Yes, but the point is this, in your statement you said Blessing used to stay at the house, that is the house in Inanda, with some of his friends, is that correct?

MRS NINELA: Yes, before I asked him to go and look after the sisters at night after work, he used to stay there, since he left kwaMakutha where he used to stay before.

MR VISSER: Do you know a person by the name of Kunene?

MRS NINELA: I know him now, I didn't know him.  In other words, I didn't know anybody of those people whom he was living with.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Would you concede that when he says in Exhibit C that Blessing asked him to go and, or invited him to go and live with him in the house in Inanda that he went there and lived with Blessing Ninela.

MRS NINELA: Who's that?

MR VISSER: We're talking about Sefiso Simpiwhe Kunene.

MRS NINELA: I cannot say yes or no, because as I said, I didn't know those people.

MR VISSER: Yes, but would you accept when he says so, that it is true?  If you don't know, you've got to concede that it might be true, not so?

MRS NINELA: If he says so.

MR VISSER: Yes, and he does.  He says so in Exhibit C.

CHAIRPERSON: He may be telling an untruth.

MR VISSER: He may be telling an untruth.

CHAIRPERSON: All she can say is that she knows nothing about it.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't get a concession from her that that is the truth.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now, he said in his statement that there were MK exiles that were accommodated in that house.  Do you know anything about that?

MRS NINELA: No.

MR VISSER: He says that...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is he coming to give evidence?

MR VISSER: That's what we're told. Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who, this man Kunene?

MS GABRIEL: That's not what we were told this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon.

MS GABRIEL: That's not what we were told this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: You know I don't want to go around canvassing issues relating to witnesses who are not going to be giving evidence.

MR VISSER: Apart from that Chairperson, we would submit that it is relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: Confine your questions to ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Yes, I'm virtually through with this issue, Chairperson.  And I just want to place on record that he gave evidence to say that the police found weapons and a printing press and documents in that house.  You would know nothing about that?

MRS NINELA: Pardon?

MR VISSER: You would know nothing about that?

MRS NINELA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now I'm told, Mr Chairman, that Mr Sebelo Ngobese is one person that will come and give evidence and he gave the same evidence in his statement Chairperson, that is at page 63 of bundle 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it.  Yes.

MR VISSER: He says that a person by the name of Ricky Thelande pointed out Blessing's house in Inanda, where he had been staying with 4 guerillas.  At the house the police discovered the printing equipment used by myself, Sefiso and Kevin.  They also found some AK47s left by the exiles.  You would know nothing about that?

MRS NINELA: I don't know about that, I only heard from the neighbours that there were weapons that were found outside the house, they were buried outside the house.