Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR MARITZ: I switched it on and then it died. Any how I heard what my learned colleague has said and I was taken aback yesterday at what transpired here. A procedure took place which is totally foreign to any rule of procedure. At least in this country and now the same thing is happening again. There is not a court in the land, there is not an institution in the land where this is countenanced. There cannot be a situation where you can line up people on one side to conduct proceedings of whatever description sort of in tandem or each one taking a little bite at a thing and then carrying on down the line.
 The reasons are so obvious that I'm, with great respect, astonished that this sort of procedure is contemplated. Where it is such a firmly established rule of procedure throughout our legal history and which does not countenance breaching at all, in my experience. I find it rather astonishing that there would be an attempt to deviate from this very, very well established rule of procedure. In any sort of procedure such as this is. And I would seriously object to this procedure being followed and we quite prepared to answer the questions. But there's no room for a series of people acting on one side to come in and sort of this one doing that and that one doing that and that one doing a little bit. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever and we seriously object thereto.

MR LYSTER: That we adjourn for two minutes to discuss this but if you want to say something before we adjourn please do Mr McAdam.

MR MCADAM: Mr Chairman I wish to point out this is not a criminal trial where the state has preferred charges against the accused and the state is presenting it's case. It's a Commission to canvass a number of issues and particularly if we look at the preamble to the act and section four of the act; the Commission must within a period from 1960 right up to '94 gather as broad a possible picture of human rights abuses committed inside and outside the country. And I submit that given the fact that there are a number of multiple issues that it is not unreasonable to say that this could be split between various persons within the Commission who have done the necessary research.
 Secondly I would like to draw the committee's attention to the Caprivi hearing where Mr Maritz and Mr Penzhorn appeared and there the committee allowed the defence to have submissions which would commence with the attorney, switching to the senior counsel and then finally being concluded by the junior counsel. And that was done not only by one defence team but there are various teams that adopted that strategy. And I don't think that there's anything irregular or improper in what was done there. But I submit that what we propose to do now is simply in the same vein and we're not here to break the person down. There are a number of issues and those must be tested and clearly if the General feels that he's been overwhelmed he can always apply for adjournment or a break between questioning.

MR LYSTER: Okay we'll ...(intervention)

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman may I just reply very briefly?  The one thing is that ...(intervention)

MR LYSTER: This will be the last reply.

MR MARITZ: Absolutely, but now let me just point this out. That I have experienced this in the Appellate Division that in addressing the court or a body of course you can divide the workload, this is done in the Appellate Division. I've got no objection to that at all. But it's got nothing to do with the present situation. This is not addressing a body.  Secondly I would like you to consider the fact that you may be opening a Pandora's box which you won't be able to close because next week if I appear for a client I'm going to arm myself with fifty people to cross-examine in tandem, one after the other. You can't allow this sort of thing because there is no sensible line to be drawn here. That the principle has to be maintained that on one side one fellow cross-examines, that's it. There is no room whatsoever for such a procedure to be adopted. Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Thank you. We will adjourn for a very short while to consider that. We'll make a ruling in a few minutes.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, I record that in the interval my instructing attorney and I had discussions with members of the panel, including yourself. And we have come to a practical arrangement to try and facilitate these proceedings and to have them proceed because I maintain it is in the interest of my client that the matter proceeds as soon as possible.
 At the same time I've recorded my objection in principle to the proceeding that is being adopted here. We have come and I have conceded that I will bear it grudgingly, without conceding that this is a correct procedure in any way whatsoever, but as a practical solution let's give it a try. But I must make it very clear that I reserve my rights in this regard and the moment I'm of the persuasion that my client is being prejudiced I'll raise my objections. If we can proceed on that basis Mr Chairman then maybe we can come to a practical solution. But I want to make it very, very clear that I do not concede under any circumstances that this is a valid procedure that can be adopted in the discretion of the committee. Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Thank you Mr Maritz. (break) Okay in view of the fact that there has been an agreement, albeit a begrudging one I won't make a formal ruling. So we will then proceed on the basis as arranged. Mr van Zyl if you restrict yourself to the material that you have prepared on relating to as I understand State Security Council accountability and Mr McAdam will thereafter proceed. And it's not a question of having two bites at the apple as it were. The two of you dealing with different sorts of material altogether.
 And I also would like to place on record that the procedure that took place yesterday afternoon was irregular and I have, neither myself nor Mr McAdam had any forewarning of it at all. And it certainly won't happen again. Thank you Mr van Zyl.

MR VAN ZYL: Thank you Mr Chairman. For the record; Paul van Zyl. Mr Chairman I just want to say from the outset that of course Mr Maritz has every right to intervene if he feels his client is any way prejudiced. That is any case his right at any stage during any proceeding. I just hope that this agreement will not be construed as saying that the questioning that will be put to Mr Malan will not be probing and will not be the kind of questioning to which any other person who has appeared before this Commission would be subjected. Thank you. I intend to proceed on that basis.
 Good morning Mr Malan, General Malan.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Hello Mr van Zyl.

MR VAN ZYL: General Malan what I intend to do is to talk through some of the evidence that we have gathered in the course of our enquiries into the role of the State Security Council. Evidence given to us by the leadership of the security forces at the time and those people appearing at the arms forces hearing. As well as people appearing at the State Security Council hearing. The transcripts of which both have been provided to you. And to put you some statements about the role of the State Security Council in order to assist us in getting a clear picture as to how it worked and how state security policy was formulated.
 Would it be fair to say that the State Security Council was established in order to develop a co-ordinated state response to what was perceived to be an increasing revolutionary threat to the country, a total onslaught as some people would put it and that what the State Security Council was designed to do was to develop a total strategy to counter the evolutionary threat to the country?