Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-03

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that he was staying in a house which was on the same street as Maria's shibeen?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, during that period, yes, but it was a little bit far down on the road.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but nevertheless on the same street?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And for how long had he been in temporary residence thereat?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: I cannot remember well, how long was he staying there by that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Could it be probably a day or two, could it be that short?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: It could be some, a few weeks, not days, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: A few weeks?  Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask you, you say he was staying there for protecting purposes.  Who and against whom was he protecting?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: It was only to protect the things like the property, the furniture because there was no one against you know, being stolen and things like that.  Thank you very much.

MR LAX: Just one follow up question if I may.  To get to and from that place, he would have had to pass Maria's on a regular basis, frequently?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: It depended on whether he choose to do so, but if he was coming from his home, then it was very much probable that he will pass through Maria's home, because it was on the top, his home, so he had to go you know, in that street, but he could have maybe used the option of going down on that street maybe, but it was a little bit far.
	Maybe if he was near the shops or something like that, but if maybe he was from his home, he usually used that way, through Maria's home.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Thank you.  Would you say this street where Maria's shibeen was, was a no go zone for people who were not IFP members?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Not for any matter, because I don't think so, there was no no go street, during that time in the area, you know.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that any inhabitant in Davel, could walk along any street that he so wished without fear of being attacked by any political organisation, whether it by IFP or ANC?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Precisely at that juncture, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say at that juncture, when did the no go areas then come into existence?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Well maybe if I can try to make some clarifications there, you know there were sometimes when there were turmoils in the area, where there were political conflicts, although there were no specific streets which you could have said this street shall not be frequented by ANC members, but maybe you will find that the IFP members have gathered in that street, for that day or maybe those times, maybe they were having meetings or something like that.
	You will find that the ANC members, would not go to that street during that time, when there was this fightings in the location or whatsoever, but if there were no fightings, even at that particular moment, you could have used any street, as you pleased especially during the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this happened at night, and we are told it happened after eight o'clock at night.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it normal around the 29th of May 1993, for ordinary citizens of Davel to walk around any street without fear of being attacked by any political organisation?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Of course yes, because as I have said, maybe two answer that question very concisely and clearly, I can maybe draw you to the political context of that time.  I can say that during the 1990's and 1991 and early 1992, there was a political conflict and turmoil during those times, and if I can recollect very clearly, the last incident where someone was killed in a political conflict, was round about early in 1992, actually a certain ANC member was killed there, and that was the last.
	Thereafter things turned to be, you know, to subside.  There were no conflicts at all, although there was that tension between the people, but that was no longer exposed, and it was no longer this fighting between the two organisations and whatsoever.
	That is why I am saying at that particular juncture, you know, you could have not, you know, frequented those streets during 1990, 1992, 1992, but in 1993, yes it was normal for a person, even up to nine, ten, eleven, you know, things has gone to a normal situation indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Thank you.  Mr Phumayo, the applicant Mr Mtambo, has applied for amnesty.  What is your response to that?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Well, there is a lot I can say there, but maybe just to recap what has already been said, because I think a lot has been said and done.
	You know from what has happened on that day and the allegations and all that, and taking into consideration again, what happened in the criminal case at Secunda, because we also attended that, and after you know, looking at the statements of the applicants and all that, we find that there are a lot of mysteries which keep on coming in in this issue.  We thought if we come here, we will come even nearer to finding the real truth, you see.
	We hoped that the applicant will be in a position whereby he will be able to disclose everything and in a truthful manner, but it seems as if we are moving even far away from where the truth is. 
	To answer your question directly then, firstly I will say in the issue of a motive, a political motive, I think it stands to reason that even the Judge in the criminal court said that he could not see the motive for Mr Mtambo to kill Mr Phumayo, so I think even here, I could not see anything creeping out from the evidence, which he has adduced, that can bring us nearer to any truth or fact, what was his motive really because there are a lot of reasons you see, and we cannot even verify which one is valid and whatsoever.
	To come away even on that, on the issue again of full disclosure, I think he also has left a lot of things undesired, because if you look at the issue of people who he could maybe have implicated there, you talk about Mr Mtunzi, you know, he could have maybe been implicated in the event and whatsoever.
	I think maybe in a nutshell, I can say he is trying to protect other elements maybe.  That is an opinion indeed, but there is no full disclosure, in a nutshell, I can say so.  Therefore you know, is stands to reason that as the victims and the family, we have discussed this issue, and we said that it can be very much difficult that there can be an amnesty granted to the applicant on that issue.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, do you have any questions to put to Mr Phumayo?

MR CLAASSEN: I have some questions, Madam Chair.  Mr Phumayo, just very briefly, you started by stating that your, I presume this was your cousin, the deceased was your cousin, was he - you said he was an active member of the ANC, what rank did he hold in the ANC?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Actually he held no position at all, you know, in the Executive, but he was just active, especially in chanting and slanting, some things like that.
	He did not hold any top position like in the Executive or even in the Youth League as such.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Phumayo, it is my instruction from the applicant, that the deceased was a Chairman in the ANC at that time, what would your response be to that?

CHAIRPERSON: ANC Youth League?

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct Madam Chair.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Maybe if I can remind the applicant, by that time, because it was shortly after he had departed from the ANC to the IFP, if maybe he cannot recollect very well that during that time, the Chairperson of the Youth League was David Nkosi.
	He held the position for consecutive years, because in many of the conferences he was chosen, so there is no way where you can find that Mshenga Phumayo was a Chairperson of the Youth League during that period.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you consult with Ms Thabete on this issue?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Me?