Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-01

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: As a chairman you take over any other person's responsibility.

CHAIRPERSON: No, just answer the question, did you see Mr Nkosi shooting your grandfather?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I wasn't going to be able to see him because I was far from the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you in your affidavit say that you saw him, you saw him shooting your grandfather?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I was supposed to say so because he knew all about it, he even knew about the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: How would he have known about the attack?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: As a chairman you know everything because they ask you, even if they are fooled they will tell you or you are the one who is supposed to know if your members are full or hungry, so you're overlooking everything.

CHAIRPERSON: So you won't even be able to tell this Committee if he was present at all amongst the group of ANC members who allegedly were fighting with your group?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No, he was present.  I may not be sure he was the one who shot but he was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at that time identify him?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: The distance between us couldn't make anything easier.  I saw him present in the group but when it comes to shooting I cannot be certain that he actually shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what ammunition or weaponry he had with him?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So how are you able to remember that he was there when you can't even remember whether he was armed or not?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I've seen him there, he was present.

CHAIRPERSON: I will leave that point.  In your affidavit you stated that you were given directions of how to get to Mr Nkosi by your grandmother.  Do you recall making that statement?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I do remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why should your grandmother give you directions of how to get to Mr Nkosi because you knew very well where Mr Nkosi's staying?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I think the question there said who gave me directions, who gave me directions and the answer was my grandmother who guided me and advised me.  I think this is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: This is not what appears on your affidavit Mr Ndlangamandla.  Your affidavit states the following.  After the meeting my grandmother called me and supported me and also gave me directions on how to get to the victim and you were speaking about Mr Nkosi, you referred to him as the victim.  This is the affidavit which you signed under oath?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I can't say that I know what you're talking about now, I deny this.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you do agree that before we commenced your legal representative wanted you to read this affidavit and we prevented him from doing that because we told him that we were already aware of the contents of this affidavit.  Do you recall us saying that to him and to you and we went on to explain to you that we were fully familiar with the facts contained in your affidavit and we were quite happy with that.  You wanted to read because you wanted us to make sure that we understood what was contained in what you wanted to present to this Committee as an important piece of evidence in support of your application.  You went through this affidavit?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how can you sit there and say you don't understand what is contained in your own affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: That's paragraph 4?  Whose handwriting?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: This is my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: This is your own handwriting.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is what you wanted to read to this Committee this morning, this afternoon when we commenced your application?  What question do you want me to repeat?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: What you just asked me now.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to know how you can say in your affidavit that your grandmother gave you directions on how to get to Mr Nkosi's place when in your vive voce evidence today you've stated that you knew where Mr Nkosi resided?  Why would it be necessary for your grandmother to give you directions of how to get to Mr Nkosi's place because you knew where he stayed?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I knew where he was staying but it wasn't the same.  When I went there to attack it wasn't the same as I go visiting him.  I was still young and going on attacks was different from going just to visit and that's why my grandmother chose to give me directions because they wanted to take responsibility as well.  I was advised when I went there.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed further, before you proceed further Mr Ndlangamandla, what would be the difference?  You knew where Mr Nkosi stayed, what more would you need to go and do what you had to do?  Didn't you know where he stayed?  Why should your grandmother give you different directions of how to get to Mr Nkosi's place?  I find this explanation completely in discord really with a person who is giving a testimony that's supposed to be truthful.  Why should you be given directions which would be different if you knew where the place is, you knew where Mr Nkosi stayed?  Would you need anything more than that from an elderly person?  How old was your grandmother?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: She was approximately 60.

CHAIRPERSON: You would rely on the directions of an elderly person in order to go and execute a mission that involved death when you knew where this person stayed.  Do you want us to believe that evidence?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Can I just explain?  The reason that I relied on my grandmother was that I had to report to my grandmother, I didn't want to do anything without her knowing that because this was effecting me and my family, not just me so there was a reason for them to know.  I was supposed to report this to them so that they guide me and support me.  It wasn't a usual visiting this one, it was an attack.

CHAIRPERSON: But wasn't this supposed to be political?  Wasn't this supposed to have been done with the blessing of the leadership of the IFP which did not include your grandmother?  Are you saying your grandmother also had to give her approval on issues which impinged on your organisation of which you were merely an ordinary member, which you were given an instruction or an order by your organisation?  You would again have to seek her approval before you could execute an order given by the leadership of your organisation.  Is that how you did things?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: The truth is grandmother is the only person who usually guides me since she's elderly and I did receive blessings from IFP.  They have bailed and they were the ones who paid my bail.  Even when I was sick they were the ones who donated money for doctors or help.

CHAIRPERSON: But they were not there when you took a decision to go and revenge for your grandfather?  They only paid for your bail as any organisation who to assist any member notwithstanding the nature of the deed that that person had been arrested for?  Haven't we all been there?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: The truth is I will never pay bail for someone I don't like, I'll use my money for someone that I like and know very well what he's done and this person is helping.  I would never pay my money for someone who doesn't work for me or someone that I don't like, I'll pay my money from my heart and I've already mentioned that we've had a caucus meeting.  After I was arrested the people who were outside continue to work and donated money to come and bail for me and they were the ones who came and bail for me from jail.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassens, do you have any questions to put to your client emanating from the questions from the Members of the Amnesty Committee?

MR CLAASSEN: I have no further questions Madame Chair.