Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, could Captain de Lange be sworn in and then he will be made available.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you English or Afrikaans speaking?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I speak Afrikaans.

ADV DE JAGER: Your full names please.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, at whose instance are we having Captain de Lange?

MR BOOYENS: I think of mine Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can you just refresh our memories, I'm not sure what this is about.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, Mr Koole, when I wanted to cross-examine him - I can find the relevant parts in the record for you but in a nutshell, when I started cross-examining Mr Koole, Mr Koole indicated you will recall, that the statement, his statement was in the first place not sworn to by this witness who purported to have taken the affidavit and secondly he then gave us a long list of - he said he didn't want to sign the thing when they sent the two people out to him to Letsapele.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: But then told to sign and then Mr Koole gave us a very long list of things that he said was wrong in the statement and incorrect and so on.  And there was also then mention of another statement.  You will recall there was a substantial confusion, well you were not confused but I was confused as  usual about how many statements there were.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I could have been even more confused but you said something like a long list of something.

MR BOOYENS: A long list of things which he said which appeared in Exhibit O and you will actually find that starting at page 1239 of the record until, I think the last one is 1250.  That was when we asked him during the adjournment to do an exercise and he said that not only didn't he swear to this statement but he said the statement was wrong.
	And then during the adjournment he sat down and he drafted up a list and he then testified without being led by anybody, or being question about everything that he said was wrong with the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, alright.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, maybe I can also be of assistance.  On page 1221 of the record Mr Koole denied that he took the oath in respect of this statement of Mr Koole.

CHAIRPERSON: So we are going to be using Exhibit O only?  Yes, then you can continue Mr Booyens.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr de Lange, do you prefer to speak Afrikaans?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct, yes.

MR BOOYENS: I'll continue in Afrikaans.  The statement of the witness Mr Koole, this is the man sitting behind us with the glasses, did you take down his statement?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you attest the statement?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, I did.

MR BOOYENS: Where?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: At Letsabele in the house of the witness Mr Koole.

MR BOOYENS: Captain, the witness also said your office is in Pretoria, not so?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: He also said that on a previous occasion he was at your office - I'm sorry, you're going to struggle hearing me with this noise, I think you must put on your headphones.  Perhaps you can hear me better now.
	The witness also said in his evidence and on a previous occasion he also made a statement to you and that you took notes, you told him to wait for it to be typed and he signed this statement in Pretoria, can you recall that?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I can recall that yes.

MR BOOYENS: And this was a statement made before the Letsabele statement.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Why was the Letsabele statement then taken?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It was taken specifically regarding this incident as to why this hearing is today, the first statement had nothing to do with us.

MR BOOYENS: So the first statement had nothing to do with PEBCO, is that what you're saying?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Luckily he's still subject to cross-examination but that was not my impression.  In any case thereafter the witness alleged it was not true that you had gone to Letsabele.  He said that - let me first ask you, is there a policeman with the name of "Slang"?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct, he's in our unit.

MR BOOYENS: He says "Slang" and another man came to him with this statement and told him to sign the thing, then he read the statement, he was not satisfied with it, then they contacted you, I suppose with a cell phone, and then you said: no, he should sign in the meantime, you could correct the things later.  What is your comment on this?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's not how it happened, what Mr Koole is referring to is his amnesty application which I sent with the person "Slang" to be signed by him, it has nothing to do with this statement.  I keep to what I said, that I had him attest this statement in his house in the lounge in Letsabele.

MR BOOYENS: You see Captain, ...[intervention]

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Can I just correct you, I'm not a Captain I'm a Superintendent.

MR BOOYENS: I'm sorry, I cannot remember the ranks, would you mind if I call you Sir?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Not at all.

MR BOOYENS: Mr de Lange, what did you want to have signed regarding the amnesty application?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: An undertaking was included by the state defence and all such things which he had to sign.

MR BOOYENS: So it was not even a statement to his amnesty application?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It wasn't, it was merely the fact that his application would be available, I know how they look.

MR BOOYENS: There was no talk of him - that he could have confused it?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No.

MR BOOYENS: I just want to talk about a few of the aspects in Exhibit O, if you could get it in front of you, if I could ask my learned friend to provide you with a copy thereof.  It's the statement we are both referring to, am I correct?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Are we now talking about the application for amnesty regarding the constitution?

MR BOOYENS: No, I am talking about Exhibit O.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: But I've got the wrong one.

ADV DE JAGER: My Exhibit O unfortunately has notes on it, do any of you have a clean one there.

MR BOOYENS: I will look, I don't know whether I have one.  Go to the last page, page 6, is that your signature?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.  I just want to add I have documentary proof of this in my diary which I had with me on that day in which this whole incident was signed when this whole matter was attested to by Mr Koole.

MR BOOYENS: So there is a diary that explains this?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Why was it necessary to make a note in your diary in this regard?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It's normal practice to make such notes in the course of the work that I do.

MR BOOYENS: I see that this statement was also taken after the people had already attended an inspection at Post Chalmers, is that correct.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, I accept that that is correct, I did not read through the statement but I think that that was the case.

MR BOOYENS: There are only a few aspects which I want to highlight pertinently.  The matter of the inspection appears in paragraph 6.  When was this inspection, was it the 22nd of March or the 23rd of April because there are two dates, the one refers to the inspection on the 22nd of March '96 and the other one refers to an inspection on 23 April '96 and I think that both were on the same occasion because it would have made no sense to take them to Glen Connor first and then a month later to take them to the airport.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: As far as I can remember it was on the same day, I can determine this in my diary.

MR BOOYENS: Did you attend the inspections?