Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, the question has just been put to you, answer that question.  You can explain thereafter what you want to explain, but answer the question first.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As far as I am aware, the IFP was not employing any strategy to perpetuate violence.

MR BERGER: And isn't it correct that the attack on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992, was part of that strategy of the IFP to foment such violence in the townships of the Vaal, that the political negotiations themselves, would come to a standstill?  Wasn't that the whole point of the attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: You do know I take it, that that was the result of the attack on Boipatong, that the political negotiations in fact came to a standstill?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I heard about it, that the ANC withdrew from the negotiations because of that incident.

MR BERGER: And isn't it so that the IFP feared that the political negotiations would lead to a deal between the ANC and the government, that the IFP would be excluded from the deal and that by fomenting this violence, the IFP established itself as a major player in the Transvaal?  Isn't that what this was all about?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is not true Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that this attack on Boipatong, had absolutely nothing to do with the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It had nothing to do with the IFP at senior leadership levels, but on the ground, yes, it had to do with the IFP in the sense that it had to do with residents of the hostel.

MR BERGER: But you have told the Committee that the action, the attack on Boipatong was contrary to the policy of the IFP, whether at national level or at grassroots level, isn't that right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did say so.

MR BERGER: Did you know that Prince Vanana Zulu was against an attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was not aware of that because he had not discussed it with me.

MR BERGER: You heard Mr Mkhize yesterday saying that Prince Vanana Zulu was against the attack?  You say you don't know about that.
	If I put it to you that Prince Vanana Zulu was in fact part of the attack, can you dispute that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I would dispute it, because he was not present at that time.
	I used to stay in a room near the gate, so I would see him if he was inside the yard, but at that time, he was absent.
	Around those days, he was not at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Yes, you said he left about three days before the attack, is that right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee that you know that Prince Vanana Zulu was not there, because he left the hostel to go home about three days before the attack, is that right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He was away, he had gone home.  Although I cannot remember exactly when before the attack did he leave.

MR BERGER: At his evidence at the criminal trial, Prince Vanana Zulu said that he left kwaMadala hostel on the 5th of June 1992, almost two weeks before the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot be absolutely certain, I cannot be too sure about the exact date on which he left, he would have better knowledge thereof.

MR BERGER: But you say he was present when meetings were held with the residents of the hostel to discuss a potential attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I do not remember having said that he was present in those meetings.

MR BERGER: Yes, I have a direct note of your evidence here, you said Vanana Zulu was not at the hostel that day, the attack was launched two or so days after he left?
	You were asked whether Victor Keswa was in the hostel on the 17th of June 1992, and you said no, he had been arrested two days before.  Can I take it that you had a keen interest in Victor Keswa, you knew him well and you followed what was happening to him?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I knew Victor Keswa because he was in the Youth Brigade.

MR BERGER: And you were aware of the fact when he died, am I right?

MR LAX: Just stop for a second.  Just stop, hold on.  Sorry Interpreters, the man said something about Vanderbijl, it wasn't interpreted.  Please you've got to try and tell us everything he is saying.
	Can you just repeat your answer to the previous question, you were talking about Victor Keswa and you said something about knowing him and then you went on to say something about the Youth Brigade and Vanderbijl and it wasn't interpreted.  Please just repeat that part.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I said I knew Victor Keswa.  At the time when the incident happened, he was in Vanderbiljpark in prison, he had been arrested a few days before.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR BERGER: When he died, were you informed?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I heard about it.

MR BERGER: And did you hear about who was allegedly responsible for his death?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Although I cannot be certain, it was alleged that he had been killed by the police.

MR BERGER: And which policeman had allegedly killed him?  Which policeman had allegedly been involved in his death?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I have said that I cannot specify who exactly was responsible.  I am not even aware who was the Investigating Officer.
	Therefore I cannot point out who exactly was that policeman.  What I learnt was that he was alleged to have been killed by the police.

MR BERGER: And Mr Themba Mabote, you heard that he too was alleged to have been killed by the police, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I heard that he was allegedly killed by the police.  I heard that he actually jumped out of a police van, a police vehicle.

MR BERGER: And you don't know the name of the policeman who was allegedly involved in his death?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am aware of the fact that it is passed one, I am trying to finish.  I don't know if you want me to finish before lunch?

CHAIRPERSON: If you've got a couple of questions that you still want to canvass, perhaps it is appropriate to adjourn now and then you can continue after lunch?

MR BERGER: Very well, as the Court pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, we will adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: (continued)   Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Buthelezi, during the two or three week period between the time of the caucus that you spoke about until the attack, in that two or three week period, did you have any other discussions with anyone else, with anyone concerning a forthcoming attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: During that two or three week period, did you attend any meetings, either small meetings or large meetings where the possibility of an attack on Boipatong was discussed?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I never attended such a meeting.

MR BERGER: I take it then that you had no idea on the 17th of June 1992, when the alarm or when the trumpet sounded, you had no idea what was going to happen that night?  Am I correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And in particular, you had no idea whatsoever that there was about to be an attack on Boipatong that night, when the alarm sounded, am I correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: When the alarm sounded, Mr Khanyile left the room and he never said anything to you, is that correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He left.

MR BERGER: And he never said anything to you when he left, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He just left and went straight to the stadium where the alarm was sounded.  He returned thereafter and left shortly after that.

MR BERGER: He left and then you say he came back and then left again?  As I understood your evidence before lunch when the alarm sounded, he left and the next time that he came back, you were already asleep?