Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS P BERLIN: You infiltrated a squatter camp, you met a certain chief by the name of Nyengeni, in Khayelitsha and he was the leader of a squatter camp.  And he organised for you to stay there.  How...can you explain how you were accepted there?  What was it that made them accept you and offer you a place to stay?

JIMMY MBANE: When we arrived there, we told him that we are from exile and we were there on a mission and he must find a place for us to stay because he could see that we had ammunition, the AK47, the hand grenades.  So he had to accept us because he had proof that we were from exile.

MR P BERLIN: And these weapons that you had with you.  Where did you get them from?

JIMMY MBANE: They were given to us by Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg.

MS P BERLIN: And did that happen at Vlakplaas or in Koeberg?

JIMMY MBANE: The commander from Vlakplaas gave us when we were in Koeberg.

MS P BERLIN: Can you tell us how many...no, I'm on paragraph 26.  After having assisted the squatters to fight the (...indistinct) you are talking about Thabiso and Eric Sifadi and you have indicated to me that this is also an error.  Can you explain to us what the real story is?

JIMMY MBANE: Eric Maluleka, Eric Shakes Maluleka, not Eric Sifadi or Thabiso.

MS P BERLIN: So how many weapons were issued to you?  Can you remember this?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I can remember clearly.  We got four AK47 rifles, eight magazines, four hand grenades and four detonators.  A Makarov and a Tokorev.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbane, who in particular - you have previously stated that a commander from Vlakplaas gave you the weapons.  Who is that commander who gave you the weapons?

JIMMY MBANE: Chairperson, the person that accompanies you from Vlakplaas is your commander at that moment and that person was Mr Bellingan.  He is the one I came with from Vlakplaas.  Belletjies is my commander from Vlakplaas.  We came together from Vlakplaas.

MS P BERLIN: How is it that you can remember exactly what, how many weapons and what kind of weapons were issued to you in paragraph 26?

JIMMY MBANE: It is because they were under my control and use.  I was in charge of this particular group, that's why I recall the detail.

MS P BERLIN: How many people were you going to train at this point...infiltrate at this point?

JIMMY MBANE: Initially, I found four people.  And a fifth one joined in by the name of Rasta.  All in all we were seven in number.  Including myself and Eric Maluleka.  After sometime, a few joined in and there were nine excluding the two of us.

MS P BERLIN: Where was it that you infiltrated?  Was it in Khayelitsha?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it was in Khayelitsha.

MS P BERLIN: In paragraph 27 you talk about a Comrade called Chris Rastaman, who appeared to be locally trained.  How did you meet him and how was he accepted into the group?

JIMMY MBANE: Yamile told us that there was a Comrade who was trained and is having problems with his AK rifle and he said that we should get in contact with him.  I said he must bring him and he did.  	He came to me with this AK47, it could not fire, it was not firing automatically, it was only firing single shots, and thus I told Shakes that we must assist this gentleman.  I inquired as to where did he get his training.  He said he trained locally and whoever trained him gave him this AK47.
	That is what I heard from him.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you Mr Mbane.  I don't have any more questions right now for my part, Mr Chairperson, so I will give the word to my colleague, Advocate Moses.  Thank you.

ADV J MOSES: Just to summarise then, Mr Mbane.  If we understand your evidence thus far correctly, is that initially when you infiltrated the group, it was a group of four people and thereafter another person joined by the name of Rastaman, and then the group consisted of five people excluding yourself and Eric Shakes Maluleki.  Did I understand you correctly?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES: Now, you told the Committee that you were told by your commander that the reason why you had to infiltrate this group is because they were heavily trained and they were dangerous and they were destabilising the area in and around the - in Cape Town.  Did I understand you correctly?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, that's correct Sir.

ADV J MOSES: Now when you - your first impressions when you first infiltrated the group of four, what was your impressions about their level of training?  Taking into consideration that you yourself had been exposed to intensive training in weapons, armoury, explosives and so on, what was your perception of the level of training of those four people?

JIMMY MBANE: What I noticed among these four people during our interrogation is the fact that they were untrained.  They were not aware of training at all.

ADV J MOSES: Can you tell the Committee whether you had conveyed those perceptions and that information to any one of your superiors?  In other words the information that these people seemed to you not to be trained.

JIMMY MBANE: I told them after having seen Rasta, and I told them that there is only one person who has been locally trained, and it's Rasta and he is in possession of an AK rifle.  But the other four are untrained, and they need to be trained because I had the necessary material to train them.

ADV J MOSES: So, the initial four were not trained, and when Rasta joined the group, you learnt and you got the impression that he was indeed trained.  Did I understand you correctly?  Is that what you are telling the Committee?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Moses, sorry to interrupt, but on that, you say that Rasta joined the group.  Did Rasta join the group or - because I thought you said that Rasta came to the group at your request because you had heard that someone was having trouble with his weapon and you invited that person to be brought to you so
that you could look at the weapon.  
	What is the position?  Did he join the group or did he happen to join the group after being invited to come to have his weapon checked out by yourself?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, he joined after I had said he must be brought to me.

ADV J MOSES: May I proceed?
	Look, perhaps just to get more clarity there Mr Mbane, it seems that you were in a position to give instructions and that those instructions would then be adhered to.  It would be obeyed.  Why would you be in that position, to be able to give instructions, which would be obeyed by other people?  What gave you that authority?

JIMMY MBANE: Normally, when you come from exile, you cannot be controlled by somebody who is locally trained.  He's got to listen to you and he must just tell you he is going to recruit how many people to be trained, not to tell you what to do, but to take instructions from you because I have extensive training, me and my other colleague, we trained outside the borders.

ADV J MOSES: Now, when you...the information about the level of training of the initial four and the level of training of Chris Rastaman.  That information which you had, did you share that information with anyone besides, obviously yourself and Eric Maluleka who was with you in this operation.  Did you share that information with anyone else?

JIMMY MBANE: When Rasta came I reported to Messrs Bellingan and Liebenberg that these people are not trained, but there is only one who is and he is in possession of an AK rifle.  I was talking to them over the telephone.  They were residing somewhere in Seapoint, and I explained to them as to what was happening.

ADV J MOSES: After you had conveyed this information to the people whom you've just mentioned, Bellingan and Liebenberg, what was their reaction?  Was there any further instructions?  What should be done?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they gave me further instructions.  They said that if there is one who is trained, we must train the remaining four as well.