Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR TSHABALALA: From the explanation that he gave I think it was immediately after his arrest, on the very same year.

MR RICHARD: In other words, his arrest during 1987? - '88?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now during that discussion with Mr Dube, what were you told to do in the future, if anything?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, we were told.

MR RICHARD: What were you told from thereon?

MR TSHABALALA: It was said we should keep this amongst  us and not divulge it to anyone else.

MR RICHARD: And were you told what might happen to you if you did divulge it to other people?

MR TSHABALALA: No.

MR RICHARD: What did you think would happen if you broke silence?

MR TSHABALALA: Obviously I would have been arrested.

MR RICHARD: By whom?

MR TSHABALALA: The people who used to arrest everyone else at the time.

MR RICHARD: If you broke silence and told other ANC members in Emdeni that you just seen Mr Dube execute your best friend, what do you think would have happened to you?

MR TSHABALALA: That did not occur to me.

MR RICHARD: Think back on those times, if you had broken silence as instructed by Mr Dube, by confiding to the ANC structures in defiance of his direction to you, what would have happened to you?  Think.  You've just seen your best friend shot.

MR TSHABALALA: That would not have happened because at that time the ANC was banned and myself and other people were members of the ANC, and I was not part or I did not take part in communications between ANC leaders.

MR RICHARD: You were a member of Sosco, there were plenty of people that you could have discussed the event with.

MR TSHABALALA: No.

MR RICHARD: Did you believe Mr Dube when he told you why he had executed your friend?

MR TSHABALALA: I accepted the explanation furnished by Mr Dube.

MR RICHARD: Did you believe the explanation?  In your heart of hearts, did you think he was telling you the truth?

MR TSHABALALA: I accepted the explanation given by Dube although I did have certain reservations, but I did accept the explanation.

MR RICHARD: Do you still believe and accept his explanations?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do believe it.

MR RICHARD: Now you left the scene and you ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, sorry, just before you move away from this scene.
	Can you explain what you mean by these "reservations"?  You say although you accepted his explanation you had some reservations, what are you referring to?

MR TSHABALALA: I was entitled to have those reservations because Sicelo was my friend.  If something happens to somebody close to you and people tell you that he or she has been doing this and that, you wouldn't want to accept it because you have feelings for that person, that person is close to you.

MR RICHARD: Prior to  your discussion after the execution, did you have any suspicions about your friend?

MR TSHABALALA: Do you mean after his death?

MR RICHARD: I mean prior to that discussion where Mr Dube gave you a justification as to why he had just instructed Clive Makhubu to execute your friend.  In other words, earlier that month, the month before, did you have any doubts about your friend, Sicelo?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did have certain reservations.

MR RICHARD: What were they?

MR TSHABALALA: I think it was in January 1988 just after the schools had opened, Sicelo had disappeared for some time and he returned.  When I enquired about his disappearance he gave me an explanation and I was not satisfied with that explanation, but I requested him to get in contact with the commander because we were worried about his disappearance.

MR RICHARD: What explanation did he give you?

MR TSHABALALA: He said as he had disappeared for all this time he had been away consulting an Inyanga.  I think he said this Inyanga was in Meadowlands.  He just gave me an explanation about going to that Inyanga.  And when I enquired further his final words were that I may not be able to understand everything.  At that time I thought that he must be referring to his work at DPSC, but I then urged him to contact the commander.

ADV SANDI: By the commander you are referring to Clive?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, Clive Makhubu.

MR RICHARD: Now were there any further discussions between you and Mr Makhubu?

MR TSHABALALA: When?

MR RICHARD: After your discussion at the time of the execution.  Did you make any plans as to what you were going to do next?

MR TSHABALALA: We used to see one another almost daily and we used to discuss things.

MR RICHARD: What did you discuss with him about - what did you plan to do next about the death of your friend, Sicelo?

MR TSHABALALA: We stuck to that agreement that we would not divulge this information to anybody else, it would remain amongst us, the people who had been present.

MR RICHARD: Now on the 28th of January 1988 you went to  see the firm of attorneys, Ismail ...(indistinct) and Partners, is that not correct?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Why did you go there?

MR TSHABALALA: As a person who knew the Dhlomo family it came to our attention that the lawyers wanted to see  us or get into contact with us as we had been close to Sicelo, because the attorneys were interested in asking us some questions.

MR RICHARD: Now when Mr Makhubu was giving evidence he made a statement to the effect that there was a need to fabricate statements, were you aware of that need?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I was aware.

MR RICHARD: Why were you in need of making fictitious statements?

MR TSHABALALA: Because there was no need to divulge the truth because if we did that our lives would be in danger, moreover we had agreed that we would not discuss the matter with anybody else.

MR RICHARD: But why not then not go to the lawyer at all, just leave it and say nothing?

MR TSHABALALA: Do you mean that we should have just disregarded the request made by the families of Dhlomo and Njele?

MR RICHARD: It was an option, you could have done that if you had so chosen.  Clive Makhubu while giving evidence said that while you were moving towards the place of execution you had been seen by somebody, do you remember any such thing?  ...(indistinct) company of the deceased.

MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: When Mr Makhubu gave evidence there was a statement to the effect that the deceased had been seen in your company by others that afternoon, that evening.  What do you comment about Mr Makhubu's statement to that effect?

MR TSHABALALA: I agree with him, he's telling the truth.

MR RICHARD: Now - so then when you look at Exhibit A, which I presume has been shown to you by now, is there anything in it that's true?

MR TSHABALALA: What I can say is, what is contained in the statement is not true.

MR RICHARD: I know that there are untruths in the statement, but my question is are there elements that are true?  For instance from the police docket I know it is correct that the deceased was wearing a red T-shirt and a blackish trousers and red shoes and red socks. ...(indistinct) are there any portions of it that are true? - that's the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you're going to take him through it I think we'd better take the adjournment at this stage and you can do so after the adjournment.  I propose to take a shorter adjournment than normal.  We will adjourn till quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

S G TSHABALALA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: I'd just like to clarify something.  I'm not sure, Mr Richard if you in fact at some stage this morning amongst all the other things, you said when this television programme was put on.

MR RICHARD: It was broadcast in December 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: It was broadcast in December 1987.  Thank you.

ADV SANDI: ... broadcast in South Africa also, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Not to my knowledge in South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Unlikely it would seem.

MR RICHARD: May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.