Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Right. We went back to the farm where we slept, we slept at the farm.  According to the agreement between me and Teboga I was supposed to be at the scene to collect them at about five o'clock.
	After they have shown the demonstration we went back and slept and at about 5:30 in the morning I left and I drove to the river.  All the gates were opened.  I don't know who opened the gates.  When I arrived at the border near the river I parked the combi next to the river and I went to the meeting place.  I found those men sleeping there, each of them carrying his bag.  I woke them up and told them let's go.  I have been sent by Teboga to come and collect you.  They all woke up and took their bags and they went away with me.
	What I want to explain is that each of them, the way they were sleeping there, they were sleeping there each had an AK47 lying next to him next to the head, and they asked who am I when I arrived.  I told them I have been sent by Teboga, they collected their bag and we left and they were following me coming from behind.  
	We managed to cross the river and cross the border and they loaded their bags into the combi.  They have thrown their luggage through the back window because the boot was not working well.  We entered into the car, one of them was sitting next to me.  I asked him, Teboga told me that you are going to give me R1 500, and they said to me we are going to give you on the way further.  	We went together, all the gates were open.  While we were on the way the one who was sitting next to me he said each and everyone has to take out his own apple. I was surprised what are they talking about when they talk of apples.  When I looked back they produced, all of them, F1 handgrenades.   The one who was sitting next to me as he could see that I was getting confused he took out an apple, real apple and he gave it to me and I continued eating the apple on the way while I knew that they were carrying handgrenades.
	I realised that - while we were driving I happened to rest my elbow on the lock key on the door so I wouldn't be able to jump out of the car, and I started to drive slowly at about 20 kms per hour.  When I arrived at the drift I slammed the brakes and opened the door and jumped out, one of them asked me in Zulu, he said "where are you going?".  When I get out, I went back on the side of the combi and they said to me don't run the other way run straight and I ran along the drift. From there I didn't see what happened, but I just heard the sound of guns, shots fired.
	After some time there was some silence.  When I applied the brake to stop I heard a casspir stopping at my back and I ran and stood where I was and I heard the shots being fired.  I don't know how one of them got out of the combi.  I saw that he fell on the other side of the road.  I don't know whether he got out through the sliding door, I don't know exactly what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt you, where did you see the casspir?  Where did you see the casspir?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It was right in front of the combi.

CHAIRPERSON: Not behind you?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No, that's in front of me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I ask this question because there seems to have been some variance between your version in your own language and the interpretation. Yes go on.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana, when you first heard the shots can you give us an indication where you heard the shots coming from?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: The way it was and the way I heard the sound it was like the sound of guns were coming from the casspir in front of us.

MR ROSSOUW: You have now said that you, after the gunshots stopped, you went back to the combi and there was one of the people who was inside the combi lying outside, what happened from there?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: One of them was lying outside.  When I went there I found these White men standing around him and he was still lying there and they were asking him as to where they were coming from.  He said we are from Gaberone.  I was standing right there in front of them, and he asked where were we going, and the man said it is the driver who knows where we are going but all I know is that we were going to Pietersburg.  There it looks like they were recording everything that was happening there, someone was recording.
	The person who asked these questions it was Tokkie Fuchs, it was the person who was asking this man.  And the others around there were just listening.  After some time Tokkie Fuchs took out a gun and shot that man to death.  He died that way and I got confused.  
	I don't know how they managed to tow that combi away and I, in the company of the others, we went to Alldays police station and when the corpse arrived I was already at the Alldays police station.

MR ROSSOUW: Where did you go from there?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: On that evening we went back to the farm where we slept.  The people enjoyed themselves by drinking liquor and I was sitting there with them because I also wanted to be promoted.  I will tell the truth by saying Adjutant Fuchs said to me you are not going to get promotion and he spilt some beer over me.  We slept on that farm.  On the following day we left for Pietersburg.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana did you receive any remuneration for your part in this operation?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They gave me R2 000. I asked for promotion, they refused.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana who gave the R2 000 to you?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It was Major Nick Coetsee.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana can I take you back to the incident.  Were there, apart from the police personnel, were there other people involved as well, present there?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: What I discovered after the incident is that after the shooting when I looked on my left-hand side I saw three Black men wearing blue overalls and I asked them where were they coming from.  They didn't know Sotho.  I could tell by their accents that they might be coming from, the place where they were coming from, they told me they are soldiers from Phalaborwa.  The one who came with them was one person who - together, the one who showed me the demonstration and he was shot somewhere up here in his hip and he was sent to the hospital for soldiers in Pietersburg.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana the previous day while you were at the scene practising getting out of the car, what did you believe was going to happen there, did you know, what did you think?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: From the beginning I was told to go and collect them at Ennerdale, that's where they have to tell me what is going to happen, but however when they took me to demonstrate I got confused, I didn't know whether they wanted to kill them or arrest them so I didn't know exactly what was going to happen.  However, the agreement between me and them was that they had to arrest these people.  From there I don't know, I thought about it, but I don't know, it came to my mind that they are going to kill them.

MR ROSSOUW: Why did it come to your mind, that possibility?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: To explain it better, even if I am not well versed in politics, I would know that the security police were defending their old government and that was a time when they killed these people, so I think that's the reason why they killed these people.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman just a minute.  Mr Sehlwana having concluded that there's a possibility that these people might be shot, how did you motivate your continued participation in this operation to continue driving this taxi?