Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-08

MR MARITZ: Thank you very much, your explanation is a good one.  Thank you.  Now there's another thing that bothers me a bit and maybe you can help us and I know - and I was must just introduce this topic.  I know that you have in your statement to the ITU, made some attempt to describe this person, you gave a description of him and you also said that he had a friend by the name of Jumbo.  Now in these proceedings it came across on record that the person you are referring to is a Mr Paul Berry or a Major Paul Berry, whereas in the statement you made to the ITU, this same person is referred to as Polberry, P-o-l-b-e-r-r-y.  Now you know who I'm talking about?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.

MR MARITZ: Polberry, as - I don't know, this thing is wrong again.  Was it in fact "Polberry", as written in your ITU statement?

WITNESS:   I don't know, maybe it's the pronunciation.  You could pronounce it any way, but if it's the Polberry that was working for the Military Intelligence, there's no other person that I'm referring to.  Whether it's Polberry or Paul Berry, I wouldn't deny that.

MR MARITZ: What did this person say his rank was?

WITNESS:   He said he was a major.

MR MARITZ: From Durban or where?  Or don't you know?

WITNESS:   He was from Durban.

MR MARITZ: /You

MR MARITZ: 1B You see, Mr Luthuli, the difficulty I have is that those instructing me, that they searched for a Major Polberry which could have had anything to do or was in the SADF at any time from 1985.  There is no such person.  Can you appreciate my dilemma?

WITNESS:   The dilemma that you have I also do have, because when we looked for this Polberry, I had his phone numbers.  I was working with people who were working under him at Hammarsdale from the Military Intelligence and the very same people who were working for the Military Intelligence who were in Hammarsdale could not be found nor traced, not even a single one of them.

MR MARITZ: Well, we couldn't - well, my clients couldn't find him either.  Now there is a possibility here, maybe more than one possibility, is No 1, that this person who said he was Major Polberry from Military Intelligence, may have been lying to you as part of his cover, or he may have belonged to some other intelligence organisation, as for instance National Intelligence or he may have been a policeman, I don't know.  Could you possibly assist us?

WITNESS:   I know him very well, that he was working for the Military Intelligence, because one of his members was working at the IFP offices in Durban and when we got hold of him, he told us under no uncertain terms that he was scared and he didn't want to talk.  He was working for the Military Intelligence here in Durban, so I'm positive(?) ... [break in recording]

MR MARITZ: (END OF CASSETTE NO 1B)

MR MARITZ: (START OF CASSETTE NO 2A)

MR MARITZ: 2A [Break in recording] ... was working for the military intelligence.  I have worked with him for quite some time.  I know him very well.

MR MARITZ: Mr Luthuli, we've reached an impasse.  All I can record is that despite a diligent search for this man, we can't find him.  There is no reference to such an officer, Pollberry in the relevant in any department of the SADF. It's no use arguing about it.  I'm just recording that that is the position.  Now, Mr Luthuli, I am now going to be a bit confrontational and this is about the only cross-examination that I'm going to do, and I'll tell you straight out what it's all about.  You said yesterday or when you testified that Mr M Z Khumalo told you that he received weaponry from the South African Defence Force.  You recall that?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.

MR MARITZ: As a matter of fact, you repeated that this morning, but in a different manner, by saying that M Z Khumalo said to you, "Yes, but we are being paid and provided with our needs by the SADF", not so?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR MARITZ: Now, I looked at your statement to the ITU and in paragraph 27.1.2 thereof you refer to armaments and you then describe that M Z Khumalo had a shop.  Inter alia, he had coffins in his shop and he used to use those coffins as a storage place for the arms and ammunition which he had available to him.  Do you recall that?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.

MR MARITZ: Now, in that self-same paragraph you said to the ITU unequivocally that you did not know where M Z Khumalo got his arms from.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, sorry, if I may intervene.  That question was misleading.  That statement which I have
 /in front of
2A in front of me does not say that Mr Luthuli said that he did not know where Mr Khumalo got his arms from.  It said, "These arms".  It specifically says - I'll read it, "I don't know who supplied these weapons to him", after talking about the ones in the shop.  Now, I don't know whether there's anything significant in that, but it wasn't put there that it's any arms anywhere for the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, it seems that the statement then refers to the specific weapons held in that shop or in those coffins.

MR MARITZ: Yes, but Mr Luthuli, you will recall that you then go on to describe at length where arms came from.  You referred to Minister Mzimela.  You also referred to a person by the name of Mthethwa.  You also referred to Psychology Ndlovu, and you also referred to Pat Ndlovu - all people who obtained and provided arms.  Do you recall that.  As a matter of fact, you went into a rather detailed description.

WITNESS:   Do you want me to explain further on that point?

MR MARITZ: I'm just saying do you recall that you gave a very detailed description under the heading, "Gun running".  Do you recall that?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: I put it to you that nowhere in that portion of your statement when you were specifically dealing with arms and ammunition did you intimate that these arms were acquired from the SADF.

WITNESS:   Can I explain to you?  I will just give you a brief explanation.  I won't waste your time.  During the incident which took place at KwaMakutha where people were killed, it came to a stop.  For some time the soldiers didn't supply us with firearms and we started on our own trying to find our own sources where we can get

MR MARITZ: /firearms.  All

MR MARITZ: 2A firearms.  All the people you are referring to at the moment, you are referring to people who were going out on their own to find firearms.  Do you understand?  That's all.

MR MARITZ: Now, will you tell us, please, Mr Luthuli, when you say that M Z Khumalo got his arms from the military, was that what he told you or is that what you saw or do you have any other reason for saying that he got his arms from the military?

WITNESS:   I will again give you a further explanation and I won't take much time.  Myself and M Z Khumalo, we were one thing.  You couldn't separate us.  If the military intelligence were to give M Z Khumalo firearms, the first person to know was myself and nobody else, and the person we were working with, it was Opperman.  He is from the South African Defence Force, and let me mention to you the firearms.  They were all new.  There was not even a single old firearm.  They were all wrapped in brown paper which had a grease and all the grenades were still in their boxes and the ammunition too was in their boxes, which were zinc (?) and they were green in colour.  There wasn't anything old which was brought to us, and he didn't even hide anything.  He explained to us.

MR MARITZ: Mr Luthuli, would it be fair to say, and I want your - that's why I'm putting it to you - would it be fair to say that on all the facts that you've now mentioned, which were within your knowledge, you made the deduction that these arms came from the military?

WITNESS:   I won't deny that.  That's what you are thinking.

MR MARITZ: Well, on that score I must merely record that, and I cannot speak for anybody else but my own clients,

MR MARITZ: /because I don't