Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-03

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, did you advise Ms Thabete that David Nkosi was the Chair of the ANC Youth League at the time when this murder was committed?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: I told her that Mr Phumayo was never a Chairperson of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you advise her that David Nkosi was in fact the Chair?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, I did not advise her on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Had it been so, Ms Thabete, we would have thought it should have been your duty to have put that question specifically to Mr Mtambo, to enable him to fairly comment on that issue.  We regard it as an important issue which would go to show that there was no motive for the killing of Mr Phumayo as alleged by him, in that he was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League.
	As it stands now, Mr Mtambo has not been afforded an opportunity to so comment and we may have to reopen that case to enable him to comment on that important aspect.  It is a matter that I will have to discuss with the members of my Committee.
	It is a matter though Mr Claassen, that you can also take up with us, whether we should reopen Mr Mtambo's evidence to enable him to comment on that aspect of evidence.

MR CLAASSEN: As the Chair pleases Madam Chair, it is my instruction indeed that as I put it to the witness, that according to the applicant, the deceased was to know knowledge, the Youth Chairman.
	Mr Phumayo, you just mentioned now that the applicant shortly before the incident, changed alliance from the IFP to the ANC, is that correct?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, that is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: So he was known to you?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, he was.

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me, what I actually meant to say would just change from the ANC to the IFP.
	Mr Phumayo, did you know what position the applicant held within the IFP?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, I did not.  I didn't even know that they were having an Executive in the Youth Brigade, because it was only the branch.  If I may refer it as a mother body, you know, which was a little bit organised, but the Youth Brigade, I didn't know any Executive of it or anything like that.

MR CLAASSEN: But you cannot deny it?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: What sir?

MR CLAASSEN: That the applicant was the Chairman of the Youth Brigade of the IFP at that stage?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Well, I won't comment on that, you know, I did not know.  I did not know, because I did not have any information about the IFP at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: That is sufficient.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: I did not know any Chairperson of the Youth Brigade.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he doesn't know, he therefore cannot contradict what you are saying.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Phumayo, you have just in your evidence in chief, you commented to what had happened on the evening, or a certain aspect thereof, of the evening the deceased had been killed.  Where did you get this information?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: About how the deceased was killed?

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: You know, as I have said some were allegations you know, which we heard in the location, and some, I have gathered the information from the criminal trial, from the witnesses there, the three witnesses.
	Everything which you know, went on from there on.

MR CLAASSEN: But Mr Phumayo, am I not correct in saying that you, yourself, have no or had no first hand knowledge, you were not a witness to the incident and you can therefore not out of your own account, testify what exactly happened?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Exactly, I was not an eyewitness, that is why I have said I was also looking at what was actually the real truth, (indistinct) I could not have bothered in looking at what exactly happened.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Phumayo, you also mentioned that the particular street referred to in which this tavern of Maria was situated, was to your knowledge, I think you specifically said, I do not recollect a no go zone as such to speak of.  Was there at any stage, during that time, the months, the weeks, preceding this incident any incident of intimidation in so far as there were specific zones in the township?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, not at that stage.  Not at that moment, you know, things have started to normalise at that time, and the violence had subsided.
	There were no intimidations whatsoever, no zone at that particular moment.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Phumayo, you say not at that stage, prior to that, even further, I think you said that 1990 to 1991, early 1992, was the last occurrence of any violence to your knowledge.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, that is what I said indeed.

MR CLAASSEN: During this time, did incidents such as this occur?  There were incidents of intimidation, there were certain parts of the township which was not accessible to certain members of political parties, is that not correct?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, to some certain extent so.

MR CLAASSEN: Were you fully aware of everything that had been going on in the township at the time preceding the death of the deceased?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Of course.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Phumayo, is it not reasonable to accept that there might have been incidents which you were not aware of?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Of course that can be true indeed, because I won't be in every part of the location every time.  I don't know whether when you are saying prior to the occurrence of Mr Phumayo's killing, you mean shortly before that, maybe meaning days or weeks or do you mean before, as I have referred 1991, 1990?

MR CLAASSEN: No, no, I am talking about the time, weeks, months, immediately preceding the death of the deceased?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Certainly I can commit myself in saying that there was no incident, because you know, our location is a very small one.  Every issue which is happening there, you can't be able, especially if it is a little bit tangible and it needs a lot of attention, you will hear about it.
	Even to add to that, the Constable which was a witness in the criminal trial, also testified that there were no such things like conflict or political ...

CHAIRPERSON: We want your evidence Mr Phumayo, we don't want to find ourselves being extricated to the evidence that was led at the criminal trial, just stick to what you personally know and are aware of.
	I would have actually commented that knowing Davel, it is a relatively small area.  I don't know that you are aware of how small Davel is, Mr Claassen.  I had an occasion of attending to one matter, it is not far from Ermelo, is it not?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a fairly small place.

MR CLAASSEN: I accept that Madam Chair.  Mr Phumayo, just to continue, I think and my note shows that you specifically on a question by Madam Chair, you said when she asked you whether it was at all times safe for anybody to go anywhere in this township, you mentioned that sometimes they do block off the streets.
	Is it then not true that there were certain incidents?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: To clarify that again, I have said during 1990, 1991, and early 1992, there were such incidents, yes, I agree to that, but from early 1992 backwards, until to the moments you know, prior to the incident of killing Mr Phumayo and thereafter, there were no such things like no go areas and whatsoever and whatsoever.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Phumayo, it is my instructions from the applicant that there were indeed, on a daily basis, infringements of all different natures, the attempted burning of houses, and it was almost a running battle on a daily basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from that, apart from the houses that have been alluded to, to have been burnt by alleged ANC members, by comrades, what other infringements or incidents has your client referred to?  I am not aware of any other than those?
	It is the burning down of houses and ...

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, if I may, I think he specifically mentioned toyi-toying and stone throwing.