Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

ADV BOOYENS: Perhaps just to complete the picture, more or less how long after falling down onto the ground, did Siebert give you the instruction to chain him to the bars, just approximately?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Approximately 10 minutes, if I have to estimate it now.

ADV BOOYENS: So for 10 minutes he was on the floor in this half sitting and half laying position?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Siebert  then gave you the instruction to cuff him as you described, please continue.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Snyman then left the room after more questions had been put to him by Siebert and he not reacted in any way.  Snyman then left and as far as I know, reported what had happened to Colonel Goosen.
	I observed that his upper lip was swollen and that he had a sort of chafe mark above his left eye.

ADV BOOYENS: Was it on the eye itself?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, above the eye.

ADV BOOYENS: Please indicate where?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The speaker is indicating on the forehead, just above the eyebrows.

ADV BOOYENS: Continue.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Goosen later returned with Snyman and Goosen spoke to him, and Biko didn't answer him at all.  Goosen then said that he should be left in that position to break down his resistance.

ADV BOOYENS: Goosen was then ...

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: A Colonel.  He told Beneke and myself to guard him.

ADV DE JAGER: That position in which he was cuffed to the bars, if one can describe it as such, he was virtually crucified against the bars?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, one could say that, but he was able to lift his hands and to move them up and down, because the bars were horizontal.

ADV DE JAGER: How far away were his feet from the ground?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: His feet were on the ground.  We put leg irons on him to cuff his feet and this chain of the leg irons would be the same length as a person's entire leg, in other words you hold it in the middle of your body so that you can walk normally.  So it would be about two metres, the chain itself.

ADV SIGODI: What was the room number where he was interrogated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I think it was 619 if I remember correctly.  I think it was 619.

ADV SIGODI: And how big was this room?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was very small, a lot of the offices there were very small.  It only contained a table and two chairs and a cabinet.

ADV SIGODI: But approximately what would be the length of the room and the width of the room?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I would estimate about 2 x 10.

ADV SIGODI: Two meters wide and ten meters long?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I would say approximately 2 meters in width and approximately ten meters in length, but I may be wrong.

ADV SIGODI: Where was the table situated, was it in the middle of the room?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was in the middle, yes.

ADV SIGODI: So when you and your colleagues were dragging him from one point to the wall, from which side were you dragging him?  Were you dragging him along the width of the room, or along the length of the room?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, it would have been the width.

ADV SIGODI: So you pulled him about two meters away to the wall?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He wasn't dragged.  There was a struggle between us, and after we had grabbed hold of him, our momentum carried us in the direction of this wall on the north side of the room.

ADV BOOYENS: Goosen entered the room and gave the order that you should leave him there.  Approximately what time was that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Once again if I have to estimate, it was about ten o'clock?

ADV BOOYENS: In the morning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And Beneke and yourself were instructed to guard him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: To guard him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: What happened during the rest of the day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: In the course of the afternoon, it became clear to me that there was something wrong with Mr Biko, because he asked me for some water at some point and he was speaking very incoherently, almost as if he was slurring his words, like a person under the influence of liquor.
	I could see rather clearly that there was something wrong with Mr Biko.

CHAIRPERSON: How long after the banging of his head against the wall, was that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: This was in the afternoon, and approximately three hours afterwards.

ADV DE JAGER: I still don't know what the time was, you say three hours afterwards?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, if I have to estimate it would have been between one and two o'clock Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew for a fact that his condition wasn't due to drunkenness?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, I am trying to simply describe what my observations were in my layman's terms Mr Chairperson.  I went and reported this to Colonel Goosen.  He then came and told me that he would arrange for the necessary medical examination.
	At approximately four o'clock, just before four that afternoon Mr Beneke and myself, untied Mr Biko from the bars and just before that I noticed that he had urinated, he had wet himself.  I then untied him from the bars, I placed him on a mat, a cell mate.  His feet were still attached to the grill.

CHAIRPERSON: When you realised that something drastic was wrong with this man, why didn't you remove him, untie him from these bars?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I was simply following the instructions from Goosen.  He told me that that man would stand there so that his resistance would be broken down, and I was simply following orders.

CHAIRPERSON: You never questioned that, that order?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No I wouldn't have dared to question that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I was only a Sergeant, a junior person.  I wouldn't never have told a Colonel or questioned a Colonel, I would never have dared to do that.

ADV BOOYENS: At about four o'clock that afternoon, you untied his arms from the bars?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And you placed him on a mat?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: In that same office?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You then went the office, you went off duty?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, I went of duty - the evening staff then came on duty.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you remove him from the bars?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Because he was wet at that stage, and I could see that he was ill according to my observation, I wanted to give him a chance to rest.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the orders?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I then handed it over to Wilken who was a Lieutenant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Niewoudt, I am not trying to trap you, I am simply trying to understand what happened.  You said that when you realised that something was drastically wrong with Mr Biko, you still did not untie him from the bars, because your instructions were to keep him there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Later on you however did so, without having the necessary orders to do so, and I am simply trying to find out why you did that if your instructions and orders were so important to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I took it upon my shoulders, I assumed responsibility for that because he was tied to those bars from ten o'clock that morning, I was going off duty and a new team had arrived to guard him, they took over from me.  I took him off from the bars so that he could rest.  That is how I can explain it.
	Beneke was the senior, he was my senior in any event, he was a Warrant Officer and he agreed.  It is not as if I did it on my own initiative.

ADV BOOYENS: I can't recall whether you said that the afternoon when he was speaking in a slurred way, whether you mentioned this to anybody?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I did, I mentioned it to Goosen yes.