Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

MR NOMPOZOLO: Therefore, from the policemen who were under I would say your command, as your evidence points that you were in charge, there is no policeman that you know who forcefully brought a person to the police college.  No, you have instructed to forcefully bring an officer to police college on 22nd and 23rd of March 1994.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I have already said, because we had spent more time with Nqoya, we had sent a policeman more than once to go and look out for him and they came with a report and eventually in the morning, the following day, Nqoya came with a policeman.   He was not pointed to with guns and did not even tell me that, he did not even complain to me about being assaulted or something like that, therefore I do not have evidence that there was a policeman who, because of my instructions, who left and fetched a person forcefully and pointed a gun at that particular person.  The only thing that I know is that the policemen went out to fetch Mr Nqoya and they brought him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And the policeman who brought Nqoya, according to you, were not armed.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The firearms were there.  It might happen that he had a firearm, he was armed.  There were firearms there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was he pointed with firearms?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I cannot say that because I was not present.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Am I correct to say that you and all the policemen who were there, you did not commit any mutiny.  All you gathered there was to discuss about what would be your future role as a policeman of Ciskei and the pensions, those were your concerns?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That was part of the issues that were being discussed, but what was the most important was the removal of Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you sent Nqoya to Brig Gqozo you sent him to ask what would be the future of the policemen, you did not send him to say Gqozo should resign.  Am I correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We did not send Nqoya to Mr Gqozo.  Nqoya is the one who came to us and told us that he had a meeting with Gqozo.  He was asking for more minutes, or more time and then he would later come back and talk to us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And according to you no policemen were held hostage, the officers were not held hostage there at Bisho police college.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And by gathering at Bisho police college all you wanted to do was to gather information regarding the future of the police.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I said that was part of the issues that were going to be discussed but the most important thing was to discuss the removal of Gqozo just before the end of that week.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let's just get the plan of action.  Suppose Gqozo had agreed to resign or to vacate the city, what was the plan of action the police had that after he has resigned, we are going to do this, or what was going to happen to Ciskei?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We were going to give it back to the Republic of South Africa, as it belongs there today.

MR NOMPOZOLO: How was that objective going to be achieved?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We knew very well that after Gqozo's removal or resignation, a person who would control that piece of land would be coming from the Republic of South Africa to come and unite the people of that particular area and the people of the whole of South Africa and we were going to tell that particular person about our objectives.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now had you already discussed that, that is the way forward?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, to such an extent that after that we had a series of meetings with people like Rev Finqa, Mr Goosen and the others.  We stated our position and even people like Mr Mfumadi came on the 23rd of March, they came to Bisho and we told them about our objectives, we told them what we were asking for and they said they were taking them into consideration.  Today we belong to the police of the whole of South Africa, not Ciskei.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who were on the committee representing the police and who reported to Rev Finqa and others that look this is what we have done, now take over from there.  Who were the representatives of the police?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: It was Capt Dioko, he was also there, General Tlela, although he was a commissioner but at least he could give direction, there was Brig Lando, Brig Nogantshu, those were the people whom we tried to shape their interest towards ours and we wanted whatever to happen and it eventually happened.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Are you saying that there was a structure in place before the 22nd and the 23rd which structure was going to see to it that there is a swift hand-over from the Gqozo administration to the interim administration which would be appointed, is that what you're saying?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: According to our belief we knew very well that Ciskei is not going to be in tatters, we were going to do something.  Mr Finqa was placed and Mr Goosen was placed as the administrators.  As administrators there they came and united Ciskei and South Africa and there was communication.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  Who were on the committee?  Who were the members of the committee?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what committee is this?

MR NOMPOZOLO: The committee which, Mr Chairman, was in place prior to the 23rd.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there such a committee?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I understood the applicant to be saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I must have missed it, I didn't hear that.  Mr Mfene, was there a committee on your side prior the 22nd, prior to that gathering at the college?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No, there was no committee.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I thought so.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, then I was under the wrong impression.
Now if there was no committee prior to the 22nd, on the 22nd the meeting was called by the commissioner of police, am I correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And during the meeting you decided to take over the meeting, is that correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you had your own objective for taking over the meeting?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What was this objective?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: First of all our commissioner, because he was doing this in and out thing and he would call us and postpone the meeting, that gave us a chance to prepare ourselves, to prepare our speeches, and whatever we were going to say to him.  We had plans, I am saying for the eighth time now, that our main objective was to have Gqozo removed so that we could be one with our officers and belong to the greater South Africa thereafter.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When was that decided, on the 22nd?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Just before that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who decided on that before the 22nd?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The police who were at the lower ranks.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who are they?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I'm one of them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And who else?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: They are here, their names are written here in this list.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Am I wrong to say that according to your evidence it would seem as if it was your idea that Brig Gqozo should be removed or should be caused to resign on the 22nd of March 1994?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I feel bad because you did not ask anything about the previous date, before the 22nd of March, you did not ask anything about those dates.  Those are the dates that gave us enough opportunity to prepare ourselves so that if the other coming date wouldn't be postponed and that would be true that we were going to be there on the 22nd of March.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You were going to be there on the 22nd of March, by that you mean that you were going to be at Bisho college?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We were already called at that time on the 22nd of March.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What I'm trying to establish from you, the idea of removing Brig Gqozo, was it your idea which came on the 22nd of March or was it in place before that?