Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson, but at that stage the documents which had been withdrawn from the computers during Vula had been collated into bundles and given to the various interrogators.

MR LAX: So then they did know what they were looking for?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: But then why did you say they didn't?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, during the detention of these persons and quite a few months after the dates of arrests, a lot of information was still be drawn from the computers and as the information became available it was sent out.  In this case it was vital for two reasons with regard to Messrs Gordhan and Lalla.
	One, the case of Mr Gordhan indicated to us that he knew the identity of the mole, namely The Owl, and in the case of Mr Lalla, he was specifically tasked within Operation Vula and this was confirmed by documents that he had to establish contact with recruited agents within the R.S.A. and that he would continue with the handling of such persons.  Some of those persons were described with code names within the documentation and only he knew the detail of how to establish contact with such persons in terms of the documentation which was obtained from the computers and that was the reason why I travelled to Bethlehem, it was to clear up those two aspects with the detainees.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR VISSER: Please proceed, paragraph 4?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Firstly I worked with Mr Gordhan and he was not prepared to provide any information with regard to the mole.

MR VISSER: And was it clear to you as interrogators that Mr Gordhan was not going to provide you with any information?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That was clear to me.  Consequently I decided to use a method of coercion to oblige him to provide information to me.  Now in this case it was that I would make use of a suffocation method to get him to talk.  In this process I was assisted by three members, namely Greyling, Duhr and Bothma.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, if I may intervene?  If this is a supply of evidence and reading of the statement, it would be very useful if reference can be made to the particular paragraph that the witness is addressing.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha do you follow what the problem is here?  This person is following you by means of the document but you keep jumping around so would you just stick to the paragraphs and if you wish to add anything you can do so afterwards.  We are now going to proceed with paragraph 5?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Very well.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I used a bag or a towel to suffocate Gordhan after he had been wrapped up in a blanket.  This would make his detention easier.  I used either a bag or a towel to suffocate Gordhan.  I cannot recall whether his hands were cuffed but I don't believe that that was the case otherwise the cuffs would have made marks as he was struggling.  The other persons whom I've mentioned namely Greyling, Duhr and Bothma, assisted me in holding him down while I pulled the towel or bag tightly around his head.  I cannot recall which of them assisted with which of these persons but it is my opinion that in the case of Gordhan, Greyling, Duhr and Bothma were present.   The suffocation along with the interrogation and response of Mr Gordhan took approximately ten minutes.  Mr Gordhan did not cooperate in any way with regard to the questions which were put to him regarding the identity of the mole, he denied any knowledge of who the person was and it became clear that Gordhan would not provide any information and I ceased the interrogation.  The reason why I assaulted Mr Gordhan was in order to obtain the information from him which would be of tremendous value to the security branch at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: What effect did this torture have on Mr Gordhan that you could see, physical effect?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I could not see whether it had any physical effect on him.  All that I could observe was that Mr Gordhan was a very aggressive person and his attitude was negative regarding the questions which were put to him.  If I had to evaluate I would say that the suffocation had absolutely no affect on him.
	The secrets with regard to the supply of investigations, names of informers and many other matters were in danger of being exposed and were indeed exposed to a great extent by the aforementioned mole.  At that stage the armed struggle still waged forth and Operation Vula was in full swing.  It was in order to combat the threat which was represented by Operation Vula that I acted accordingly.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, paragraph 9, I see that I have inserted something here and I just want to ask you if I have it correctly, did you act here under the order of a higher officer or upon your own initiative?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The order with regard to the interrogation of Mr Lalla and Mr Gordhan was based upon a request of the commander of the security branch of Durban at that stage.

MR VISSER: Who was he?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was Brigadier Steyn, he is currently a general.

MR VISSER: But not the order to assault him?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, that was my own decision.

MR VISSER: Very well and why did you do so?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson it was my opinion that this would be the only method in which to coerce Mr Gordhan to give the information.

MR VISSER: Continue with paragraph 10 please?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I did this as part of my opposition to the struggle and my acts were aimed against supporters of a liberation movement.  What I did I did in order to protect the government and the interests of the National Party and to combat the revolutionary onslaught.

MR VISSER: May I just stop there for a moment.  You know that it is part of the history and general knowledge that the struggle that we referred to during these amnesty applications by 1989 actually began to subside, isn't that so?  Then there were negotiations or at least talk of negotiations and in 1990 there were already negotiations.  Could you just tell the Committee Members and the Chairperson according to your insights as a member of the security branch whether the struggle had already subsided by that stage or whether it continued?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, although the negotiations had started at that stage there were two things.  One, Operation Vula indicated that the ANC was not negotiating in good spirits.  There was the SACP initiative of Vula to prepare a national revolution so that the country could be taken over by means of violence after the five year programme and then on the other hand the terrorism which took place in Natal over a period of time in terms of the intensity of the violence, in other words bomb explosions, this diminished but armed attacks, hand grenade attacks, such things increased and reached a high point in terms of statistics during 1992 and 1993 and against whom were these hand grenade attacks and other attacks aimed or between which parties did it take place.  The target between the two involved groups indicated that it was IFP versus ANC and the primary targets in these cases were members of the IFP and not government institutions or government staff members.

MR VISSER: Therefore it is your summary that visible bomb attacks in public places and so forth diminished but attacks on people increased?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you've already stated during your evidence before Judge Mall and the two Committee Members who are seated here today that there are certain statistics and you provided these statistics?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.