Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: What about it?

MR PRIOR: Well, we have heard evidence that money was taken from that shibeen.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, the taking of money at the shibeen is a lie that was made up by those people, it is not surprising that the people of that shibeen lied.
	It is because in their statements to the Police, they lied.  For example the person who drove their own car, told the Police the right thing in his statement, that we took him and we left him near Berlin.  He does not know whereto we left there from.
	But he could later go to the Police and I do not know why the Police accepted the second statement from that guy and he said we, there is no such that we left him near Berlin.  We took him to Highgate Hotel and he was left at the car with somebody keeping guard on him, and four people left and used rifles against the Highgate Hotel.
	That is why they dismissed him as a liar in that court because at the Highgate Hotel only one shot was hit with a rifle grenade.  It is not surprising those people are lying this much.  They lied in the beginning and the Police accepted their statements.  I do not know their intentions.
	No money was repossessed from those people.

MR PRIOR: Coming back to Bahai, who killed the deceased in that matter, who did the shooting inside the Church?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, now I am going to tell you what I think or what I heard.  I will tell you what I think or what I heard.

MR PRIOR: Well, just before you do that, were you inside the Church when the shooting occurred, or were you outside the Church?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, I was outside the Church, that is why I said I was going to tell you what I think or what I heard.

MR PRIOR: So you didn't see the shooting?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, I did not see the shooting.

MR PRIOR: Were you told later by one or more of your comrades who had done the shooting?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is why I am saying sir that I am going to tell you what I think or what I heard sir.

MR PRIOR: No, just answer the question, were you told later by anybody, it is a simple question, were you told who had done the shooting by your comrades?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason for me to answer this fashion, as if I am not answering your question directly, it is because I do not remember as to whether I was told as to who shot there, that is why I am saying sir I am going to tell you what I think, or what I heard, because I am not sure whether I was told as to who shot there.

MR PRIOR: Yes, carry on.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: At Bahai sir, this happened.  I entered, holding a smoke grenade and I was instructed to search the deceased.
	The money, the guns and car keys.  Indeed I did that.  I found money, three car keys, I took those car keys, threw them to Mr Pala Pala.
	He went out to check out a car.  He was told that if he sees a suitable car, he must open its cars and hit its bell.  After doing that, I went out and followed him to go and fetch the bags that we have left outside of the Church, to put inside the car.  Shots rang out in the church.
	Everybody ran out and we went into the car and left for Transkei.

MR PRIOR: Where were you when the shots rang out?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As you are going out of the door, I might have been turning the last corner of the Church, going to the cars.

MR PRIOR: When you heard the shooting, did you stop, turned around to look who was shooting?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I did not stop sir.

MR PRIOR: Why not?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Because I knew that it cannot be that it is the deceased who are shooting.  Clearly it was my comrades who were shooting.

MR PRIOR: Who?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As I have already said sir, I am only going to tell you what I heard.  I am going to tell you what I think.  What I think and what I think I heard sir.
	I will not then be able to say it is indeed so and so and be sure or who it was and be sure about that.

MR PRIOR: Who was left behind in the Church?  You answer around the question and I think you know exactly what I am driving at, would you please answer the question?
	Who was left behind at the Church who could possibly have done the shooting, tell us that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Those who were left behind in the Church were African Kid, TNT and Dumisani Ncamazana, who was at the door of the Church, keeping guard on our behalf at the time we were inside the Church.  That is the people I left behind.
	The one who went out, it was Mr Pala Pala and then I followed him.  They came later, behind us.

MR PRIOR: Dumisani Ncamazana also was armed, is that correct, he had a firearm there?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: Was it an R5 or an R4, what?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I can't remember sir.  I really cannot remember, unless you can remind me.

MR PRIOR: So on your version, one or all of those three persons could have done the shooting, you don't know?  Is that what I should understand from your evidence?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I was saying it is one among those or two of those who were inside the Church.

ADV SANDI: Didn't you talk about what had happened at the Church on your way to the Transkei?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see, when we were on our way to the Transkei, I could lie to you, we were not talking, nobody was talking in the car, only the driver was told, please drive  fast.  Please drive faster so that we cannot be arrested.
	We were not talking anything sir, because we were afraid.  We knew as we were on our own, we could meet a roadblock at  Komga, that is where a roadblock is commonly found.  Now, we were praying most of the time that we must not find a roadblock, until we ultimately reached Transkei without getting a roadblock along the way.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any conversation at all in the car?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As I have said already sir, we did not talk about any other thing as we were very afraid along the way, thinking about this is not our car, unlicensed guns, having committed what we did, that was against the law of the government of the day.
	Clearly sir, each person at the time was praying for his own that perhaps along the road, we must not meet any roadblocks.

ADV SANDI: You say you were praying, who was leading the prayer or what form did this prayer take?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Perhaps sir, you don't understand me the way I am putting this matter across.  I am saying sir, it was silent, each one was thinking his own thing.  People were praying for themselves, inside, internally.
	Nobody was speaking loudly, except to encourage the driver to drive faster, that is all.  It is only my thoughts that it could be that others were praying for their safety along the way, as I was praying myself.

ADV SANDI: In other words no one in that car said to you, that he was praying?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Nobody said to us let us pray or who said to me he is busy praying.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the urgency in getting to the Transkei?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: In order to escape arrest from the Police, and because the instruction was that we must return that same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Because TNT or Kid, I am not sure, one of them lived close to the Church, didn't he?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Kid stayed in the vicinity of the Church, it is true sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You could have gone back there, deposited your guns, abandoned the stolen car, and you would have been perfectly safe?  Were you rushing back to the Transkei to report the success of your mission?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see sir, the car we could not simply abandon it is Mdantsane, the car was required as property of APLA and the report back about the mission was supposed to be given and the fact that they had returned with me, as they were instructed.
	The car we simply could not leave at Mdantsane or East London.  As you say Kid stayed in the vicinity of the Church, clearly there are people in the Church who could have seen and identify him and then tell that no, one of those who were involved, is someone who stays right there.