Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I do not know that name.  I heard of that Matanzima when I was in prison, in the Pretoria prison.

MS TANZER: If Matanzima would give evidence that he was carrying a card, that he was a card carrying member, would you accept that he was a member of the IFP at the time?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Before my arrest, I would dispute that he was a card carrying member, because I have never met him, I do not know him.

MS TANZER: But you just said that you didn't know everybody because there were too many people to know?  No comment?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I have already explained, that I do not know that name.  I just heard of him later.
	He would have to show or give evidence of when and how he joined the organisation.  Secondly I am not the person who was responsible for signing up new members.  That was the Secretary's job.
	My job was to see to it that every member carried their card.

MS TANZER: How could you dispute whether he was a member or not, wouldn't the Secretary be able to confirm that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: What I dispute is that I have never seen nor heard of the name Matanzima before my arrest.

MS TANZER: Do you know of any ANC members who would join the IFP at the hostel, and then how would you treat such members if they joined?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: If a person wanted to join the IFP, we would question his background, and he would have to explain where he comes from.
	We would accept new members because we were on a recruiting drive.

MS TANZER: According to Matanzima in his statement, he tells, he says that when he left and joined the hostel, you were at first suspicious  but then after a while, your suspicions were allayed and you accepted him in the Brigade.

CHAIRPERSON: When Nosenga says you, is he referring specifically to this witness or to the hostel residents in general?

MS TANZER: Mr Chairperson, I would expect that he was referring to the committee, either the committee or the Youth Brigade itself, who would accept him as a member.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your instructions in that regard?

MS TANZER: I have no instructions except that he says that he was accepted after some time of suspicion.
	We will get further evidence from him in this regard, anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer Mr Buthelezi?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat the question?

MS TANZER: Are you aware of any ANC members that joined the IFP, and how would they be treated once they joined?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought the question that you have just asked is the question, what you were putting to him is that Nosenga says in his statement that when he came to the hostel, they were first suspicious.  Isn't that the question that you wanted to put?

MS TANZER: That is the question, I apologise Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That is the question that you should put to him.  I put it to you that Matanzima at first, when he joined, you were suspicious or the party was suspicious of him, according to him, and after a while, the suspicions were allayed, and he was accepted as a full fledged member of the IFP party.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I have already mentioned it before, I do not know him.  Maybe he joined the organisation after my arrest.

MS TANZER: You mentioned that your life was in danger.  How was your life directly in danger at the time prior to the attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: My life was in danger in relation to the ANC's attack on Inkatha members.  I always had to be on the lookout for the ANC, be it at the taxi's or anywhere.
	Even though I was not written Inkatha all over my face, but they could have easily recognised me.  My life was in danger for a very long time, from 1990 right up to the time when the violence subsided.

MS TANZER: However, you were not afraid to go to the shops the day after the attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was afraid, but I was then forced by circumstances.  I had to go out and buy food.  I had to accompany people who were on their way to work, so as to get out of the hostel and buy food.

MS TANZER: You mentioned that there was an ANC programme to eliminate IFP members.  What was such a programme, how were you aware of such a programme?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I am explaining that this was the programme of the ANC wherein the IFP was attacked all over the place.
	It was their campaign to burn and kill members of the IFP.  That is why I am saying so.

MS TANZER: Where did the Youth Brigade get its money from?  You mentioned a Treasurer, where would they collect monies from?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Here I am referring to the structures of the IFP when I am talking about the Treasurer.  For example we would raise money by way of contributions from the members within and these monies would then be used accordingly.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your standard of education?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately I have never been to a classroom situation.

MS TANZER: You mentioned that the meeting that you attended prior to the attack, all right, at this meeting, was the attack discussed in detail?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: In your opinion would you say that the attack itself, was just a random attack or was it well planned?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The attack happened randomly on that day.  People were driven by anger and they therefore had to do exactly that, attack.  But nobody had planned beforehand what was going to happen on that day.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that Matanzima Nosenga is going to give evidence that in fact this attack was planned, that he was part of the planning, he was part of the crowd when it was planned for, and that every detail was discussed?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He can come forward with that information, but as far as I know, I did indicate that I have never seen him.  I don't know him.
	If he has that information, he should come forward and divulge that, the implication of the police, the killing of the people at Tserela, etc.  I think if that is the case, he must have been captured in a photo shot by the police, if he was present.

MS TANZER: Were you aware of the IFP leadership's unwillingness or not being in favour of this attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The leadership or the entire leadership of the IFP, have or the IFP as a whole, have a constitution which is opposed to the attack of people, but we as residents of kwaMadala hostel had been angered by the killing of so many of our members by the ANC here in the Vaal and we therefore decided as residents that these people from Tserela should be attacked.
	Anything can go ahead and happen, that is how it happened.

MS TANZER: But my question was, were you aware that they were reluctant to proceed, they wanted to speak first to see if they could not communicate and discuss with the leaders of the Boipatong location before any attack took place?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know that the leadership of the IFP were opposed following the constitution of the organisation.

MS TANZER: You say you only learnt of the attack, the day after the attack?  When the dwellers or the hostel residents came back, weren't they shouting, changing, singing, victorious, happy with what they had just done?  Didn't you hear any noise, weren't you awaken by any sounds?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, there wasn't any such noise.

MS TANZER: Did the dwellers just come home and go back to sleep like nothing happened?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I think so because I also heard my roommate or I only saw my roommate the following day, I didn't see him come in at night.
	I did not hear any noise at all.

MS TANZER: Did anybody notice your absence from the attack and were you ever asked why you did not participate in the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I was not questioned at all.  No one questioned me about that.

MS TANZER: Did Khanyile, your roommate not ask you where were you in the attack?