Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: You were performing police duties I think you've told us?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Why was it necessary to go and pretend that this man owed you money to drag him out of his house.   Why didn't you simply say you were taking him away for questioning?

ANSWER: Sir the instruction was that this person should be abducted not arrested, so the pretence, we had to take him from there under false pretences not to give anybody the impression that we were policemen taking this man away but that we were ordinary citizens whom he owed money.

JUDGE WILSON: So you were not performing a police function at the time, you were acting illegally, that is so isn't it?

ANSWER: Yes sir that was the way we worked, we went about our things at Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: You knew it was illegal?

ANSWER: The way in which we operated at Vlakplaas was that I knew I was supposed to go about it in that manner.

JUDGE WILSON: You knew it was not the function of a policeman to abduct someone under false pretences, didn't you?
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	104	A NOFOMELA

ANSWER: I was not trained in that way at the college but when I got to Vlakplaas I was trained that way, it was not by choice, I was instructed that way at Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible no microphone).

ANSWER: Yes sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You were trained as a policeman?

ANSWER: Yes that is so.

JUDGE WILSON: ...your training taught you also that it was wrongful to assault people under arrest or in police custody?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

JUDGE WILSON: So you knew you were doing wrong.

ANSWER: Sir I would like to explain this.   When I was at Vlakplaas I was given different training to what I had been taught at the college, which I was to follow.   What I was doing at Vlakplaas I thought was right in the way that they had trained me and I was supposed to do it accordingly.   I could not ask any questions.

JUDGE WILSON: You knew that other policemen didn't accept this and didn't know about this, didn't you?

ANSWER: Yes sir it was a secret, the other police didn't know about it.

JUDGE WILSON: ...your car at Vlakplaas when the police were looking for it.

ANSWER: Yes that is so sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You were aware of this all the time that you were committing these acts, is that so?

ANSWER: I knew that, are you asking if I knew that it was illegal or that I should have kept is secret?

JUDGE WILSON: That is was illegal and that the ordinary police didn't know about it and did not accept it, that this
1a	was /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	105	A NOFOMELA
was something from Vlakplaas.

ANSWER: Yes sir.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nofomela you have said in your evidence that you were not part of the interrogating team that questioned Mr Dibali in Zeerust, is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You in fact only participated in his assault once you were invited to do so by Vermeulen?

ANSWER: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you attacked Dibali at home in Soweto, you were then acting on a frolic of your own, you had no instructions to assault him.    Your instructions were specific, you were to abduct Mr Dibali.

ANSWER: Yes.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: What are we dealing with next?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, again on this matter the next of kin will still be the same woman who was also involved in the other incident, Joyce Dibali and what I've relayed to the Court still applies in this matter as well.   Mr Chairman I don't have any matter in which witnesses are present but yesterday we agreed that there are matters that can be dealt with where witnesses need not be called and this was the three matters; (1) affecting Nofomela, the murder on Mr Lawrence; (2) the shooting at Lindley(?); (3) the killing of the diamond dealer.   I don't know amongst my colleagues who is going to start first, I think Advocate Jansen indicated that he's going to start with one of the last two I've mentioned today.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe, could you kindly for record
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MR MPSHE	106	ADDRESS
purposes inform the Commission whether you've given all the interested parties notice, all the victims and if so, when should they have been here, yesterday or today or tomorrow, because it may be that they are not interested and wouldn't turn up so we could continue with the cases.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, that is so if they are not here we will continue with the matters.   What I have been doing, I did even this morning at 6 o'clock I phoned some of the people to whom I had sent notices and they indicated to me that they have received them and I spoke to them last on 11 December 1996 and they indicated that they were going to attend if I sent them notices.   This I have done and they have not shown up.   The two that I phoned today were in the matter affecting the kidnapping of an activist called "General", his full name is Glory Sadibe.   I spoke to his brother-in-law, Minister Joe Modise this morning at 6 o'clock and he said he did receive my notices to him but he has forwarded the notice to the wife of Glory Sadibe, Comrade A, who is in Zimbabwe and he had to come down.   He said he will phone me today to tell whether the wife will come or not.   The one person I phoned is the brother to Japie Maponya who indicated to me that he can only be here tomorrow, after I phoned this morning to confirm whether he received the notice.    May I just mention that all the people that are here that I have mentioned I spoke to them personally first and I can say this to the Committee, I've got returns of service here from the investigative unit.   If the Committee would like to know whom I have informed, I can read all the returns of service, unless if the Committee wants to know about specific persons?
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
MR MPSHE	107	ADDRESS

CHAIRPERSON: We accept the undertaking you've given Mr Mpshe, let us proceed with the evidence.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Mpshe, before we leave the matter of the Dibali's, you handed to us a letter from Joyce Dibali and she said I would like Dirk Coetzee and his colleagues to tell us what happened to Mohabi Dibali and Joe Ngabi.  What is the status of this request, what happens to it?   I know we have asked the previous applicant Mr Nofomela about what happened eventually to Mr Dibali, he told us what he did tell us.   What is to happen to this request?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As I spoke to her yesterday when I wanted to find out about her dilemma in speaking, she referred me to the letter which I read and she said I'm just here to listen and to know what happened to these people from their evidence.   That is how far I went with her.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Captain Coetzee has never been asked about this, he may throw some light on this.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I indicated to her that the other person, Joe Ngabi I do not have an application for amnesty affecting Joe Ngabi.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Does that preclude us from asking Captain Dirk Coetzee what happened to him?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I do not think it precludes the Committee asking them about Joe Ngabi.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Speaking for myself I don't think this is an unreasonable request and I don't see any reason why we shouldn't ask Captain Dirk Coetzee about it, after all that is why we invite members of the family and relatives to be here.   If they come here and make reasonable requests, if it is possible to accede to those requests, I think we should try to entertain them.
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MR MPSHE	108	ADDRESS

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes I agree if that is taken up by the Committee.   Mr Jansen is there any reason why we can't recall Captain Dirk Coetzee to come and answer these questions?

MR JANSEN: No not at all Mr Chairman.   I then call Mr Coetzee to testify, thank you Mr Chairman.
DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE (suo)

CHAIRPERSON: Does the name Joe Ngabi mean anything to you?