Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: No he did not say in the exact way, as I previously pointed out at one of the previous cases, there is a way of understanding and talking and when he said make a, Peter, Vusi had the attitude of charge me or shoot me and so shoot him, make a plan with him.   In the same time take Peter with.

CHAIRPERSON: That is sufficient specific for those who understand that language?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: For present purposes that was an instruction to eliminate these individuals?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you take the decision to use the knock-out drops?

ANSWER: Ja it was left over to me.   I did arrange with Brigadier Schoon because General Lothar Neethling I think he said I don't know how many of those drops, it was very few, it costs R40 a drop, it was very expensive.   General Lothar Neethling of the forensic laboratory won't supply me with
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	253	D J COETZEE
any drops except if it is arranged by my superior, which was done explicitly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why was it necessary Mr Coetzee to first poison them when in any case you intended to shoot them?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman, one makes provision for any eventuality, I mean as clearly proved in the Botswana raid, power failure, we had no torches with us, rain helped us in getting to the premises but again handicapped us again.   So you never know, I had everything in my boot I made provision for, as I say any eventuality, any possibility, any way of giving these guys these drops, or this poison.   If they could get in this poison and eventually it was a heart attack and we were caught in the act before we could burn that body for instance, and a postmortem was done, it would have proved...(end of 2b)...I was supplied with a very limited one for each operation and at the most when we went to Swaziland for like in the case of abducting General, instead where four to eight drops can knock out from any slender man to any big man very easily, within 20-30 minutes, I was supplied with more than that because I had enough drops to hand to Lockwood and he did four drops - according to what he reported back to me - into General's first drink and his driver, so that was altogether eight drops.   His driver got it in and passed out.   When he saw that nothing happened to General, he apparently doped him a second time and still nothing happened.   So General must have ditched that drink, there's no ways that he could have got those drops in and stood up without falling down.

SISI KHAMPEPE: With regard to the matter at hand, that's the Peter Nglamini and Selve Mavuso, was it your original intent to kill them by poisoning them?
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	254	D J COETZEE

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman, one of the options that I made provision for.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Don't you make reference in your manuscript that you intended to poison them and later shoot them?

ANSWER: No I think dope them and eventually what happened we gave them knock-out drops because the poison didn't work.  We administered the poison on three occasions apparently after it was doubled and trebled, we went back to, I myself once picked it up from General Lothar Neethling the poison, the poison and knock-out drops.   The poison didn't work.   Koos Vermeulen went back the second day for a double dose and about two weeks later, it was just after the Lindley incident on the Sunday 25 October, Vusi was released on 11 October, the first poison administered on the 11th, the second dose on the 12th and the third one on the 25th the Sunday after, and on the second occasion Koos Vermeulen went back to General Neethling's office and the third one Koos accompanied me on the Sunday morning to his house where we picked him up and went to the forensic laboratory.   He prepared again this poison, mixed it and he drew it up in two of my insulin syringes, 100 unit syringes, and said you must administer it.   He couldn't understand why this poison was not working because he said apparently if you administer it to sheep within minutes the sheep just give one jump and fall down and the result would be a heart attack.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Don't you think you were making guinea pigs of the people who were in your care?

ANSWER: Well that was exactly I think what happened because with the drops, knock-out drops that I gave Vusi in that night after we saw that the poison didn't work, I kept for Lothar Neethling's purpose a record of how long it takes
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	255	D J COETZEE
and what is the exact reaction that is evoked from this person after giving him this drop.   How long it takes to knock him over and then what happens thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: This couldn't have been an experiment, you weren't really using them as guinea pigs, you were really hoping they would become corpses isn't it?

ANSWER: Yes it is true but I did keep sort of a record for our own purposes for future references because that was the first occasion that knock-out drops were supplied to us and we made use of it.   It was important for us to know if we might go into a neighbouring country and want to abduct someone like General how many drops to administer, what the reaction would be and how long before we could move in and in what way would, what reaction it would evoke from the victim.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were there to your knowledge any actions, disciplinary or otherwise, taken by the superiors in response to the letter that had been written by Nglameni?

ANSWER: The only reaction, response was that he had to be killed, nothing disciplinary at all.   I can't remember even Mr Chairman in my time ever of any slightest indication of any disciplinary action taken against any one of the askaris or any one of the policemen on Vlakplaas in my short stint on the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the purpose of taking them to Komatipoort to have them shot, why was it done, why did that have to be done?

ANSWER: When the poison did not work, I left Koos Vermeulen and the two victims on the farm at Kopfontein gate, that same farm that Koos always used, Koos Vermeulen always used, because he said I can go back to Lesotho he
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	256	D J COETZEE
will deal with it now because the poison wasn't working and I left.   When we were called up, the whole group on 24 October to Middelburg in the Eastern Transvaal area, Koos rocked up at Middelburg actually at Grobblersdal where we eventually went and slept in empty houses of smallholdings of war veterans, El Alamein and I think another name was allocated to this little smallholdings, where we occupied empty houses for the duration of our operation looking for this ANC cadre who was apparently responsible for the killing of the two victims in the Ogies caravan, the two men.   Koos came up with them that Saturday, arrived when I arrived there here he was still with Peter and Vusi so on that Sunday Koos Vermeulen and myself, leading the rest of the group at Grobblersdal we departed for General Lothar Neethling's house to pick up, to find out what now, what's next, more poison from him.   When we returned that was administered and well, it also didn't work.   We then had to get to a deserted area of friendly branch commanders in the area which was Major Archer Flemmington at Komatipoort and in fact where Sizwe Kondile was burned, where Peter Mvusi was then burned, it was next to the Mozambique border and we decided to do it in that area with their help.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Coetzee would you say that it was normal for people who were kidnapped by the Security Branch to be later eliminated?