Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR WILLS: A blunder that she was there and that she was arrested, that was the evidence of Botha.

MR VISSER: I don't object to that at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on then, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  My question, to repeat, my final question on this point is that, if Botha was surprised that she would be in the car at that time, that certainly was not your impression, not so?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I was surprised that no terrorists were present.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question Mr Wills is putting to you is, did you get the impression that Mr Botha, or Col Botha was surprised that Ms Khubeka was in the vehicle at Battery Beach?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I'll leave it there.
I'm not finished my cross-examination, I've got a number of other issues to ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You specifically said you just wanted to finish that point.  I'm just finishing my note.
Yes, thank you.  We'll now take the short tea adjournment till half past 11.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you wish to remove your jackets, please do so and please don't wait for me everyday to say so, just remove them.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, may I just apologise for any delay I have caused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Samuel.  Mr Wills, you were busy questioning the applicant, Maj du Preez.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: (cont.)
	Now, if it was expected that you were going to be arresting, for want of a better phrase, Khubeka on the day in question, so too it must have been expected that you were going to do something with her, not so?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I did not suppose there was a possibility that she would also be on the scene.  I did not expect that we would arrest her.  May I just say that we expected that we would arrest terrorists.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that that wasn't your earlier evidence, but even on the basis that there was a possibility that she would be arrested then so too you must have planned for something to happen in consequence of that arrest, not so?  You don't just arrest someone and then not know what to do with the person.  I want to know what you planned to do with her in the event that she was arrested.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: In such a case, such a person would be a witness.

MR WILLS: Is that what was discussed, that you'd use her as a witness?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, I didn't discuss it Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Surely the ...(intervention)

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was not supposed that she would be arrested, or it was not planned that she would be arrested, so there was no planning with regard to what would happen after the arrest.

MR WILLS: You must agree that she was a useful source of intelligence to you, potentially.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I am not entirely sure of the question.

MR WILLS: You must agree, I'll repeat, that she was potentially a major source of intelligence to you and your operations and you, please unless I refer specifically to the contrary, when I speak of you, I'm referring to you as the Durban Security Branch.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: She handled terrorists and helped them with the storage of arms, so she was of interest.

MR WILLS: Yes and so as a result of that surely and I put this to you, you must have wanted to speak to her to get that information?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we sent in C1 members to meet with her and it would have placed the operation at a disadvantage if we arrested her and spoke to her.

MR WILLS: Well, why was that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson with an intelligence operation one plans how the persons would be arrested and it was decided that C1 members would be sent in to meet with this person for the purpose of arresting terrorists.  At no stage was it planned that Khubeka would be arrested and interrogated.

MR WILLS: That wasn't my question.  I asked you why was it - I think your answer was a security risk to the operation if you spoke to her.  I'm asking you why was that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that, my note says it would have been a disadvantage to have arrested her.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  Why would it have been a disadvantage to you?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It would have been deemed unnecessary, the operation, to send in the C1 members and then the operation would have been of no value at all.

MR WILLS: So, is the inference of your evidence that under all circumstances, you wanted to keep a distance from her and not let anybody know that the police had ever come into contact with her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we wanted to arrest terrorists through her, by establishing contact with her, we wanted to arrest terrorists.

MR WILLS: Yes, but please, possibly you're not understanding me.  I'll repeat my question.  It seems to me that you wanted to make sure that nobody else around in the community that she was operating in knew that yourselves, being the police, had anything to do with her.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot think that such an impression would be created.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez, did you understand Mr Wills' question correctly?  His question was that did you want to create the impression with the community that the police had nothing to do with that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I don't know how one would create such an impression, whether I would go to the community and tell everybody "I am not interested in this person", I don't know what Mr Wills means.  How would I create such an impression?  If I had to necessarily drive around in the community and tell them that I am not interested in this person, I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could even go further with Mr Wills' question, is it not correct that you didn't even want to create the impression with Ms Khubeka that she was dealing with the police, or the police had any interest in her.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You had sent in C1 operatives, askaris, who were pretending to be MK cadres to get information from her, unwittingly from her, without her knowing that she's, that information's being passed to the police.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you as the police, the Security Branch, didn't want her to know that she was dealing in any way with the police.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That follows automatically Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that is basically what the question was.

MR WILLS: And that if it was found out that she herself had been in your hands, like for example after she was arrested, that would jeopardise your whole operation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Please repeat the question.

MR WILLS: If it had been found out by the community that she had been arrested by yourselves as happened, it would have jeopardised your whole intelligence gathering operation.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So one of the considerations as regards what to do with her, was to make sure that nobody would ever find out that she had been arrested.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not so Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why?  When I say nobody, I exclude the police.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, after her arrest, it was tried to establish where the terrorists were with whom she had dealings.

MR WILLS: Please, possibly it's a language problem, but I'll try and ask my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, correct me if I'm wrong Mr Wills, he's saying did you the Security Branch not have an interest to keep her arrest secret that no-one gets to know of the fact that she's arrested?