Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: No, Chairperson, I was a farmer at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you belong to any other arm or division of the AWB or any other movement besides, let's call it a unit, that you worked with together with Mr Strydom and sometimes Mr Wessels?

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: Mr Chairperson, no, initially I was a "Wen Kommando" member but I was transferred to the Special Forces.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, any questions arising?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions arising, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Breytenbach, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I'm in possession of certain video material that relates to meetings that were held by the AWB at various times.  I do not intend showing it to the Committee.  If the Committee so desires as to look at them at some stage, they are available.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that then concludes the evidence and that is the case for the applicant, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, there will be no evidence on behalf of the victim, but Chairperson, I would at this point propose to put forward the name of Mrs Dinah Ramolla, the widow.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell it please?

MR MAPOMA: Dina: D-I-N-A-H, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she a widow?

MR MAPOMA: She's a widow yes, Chairperson, a widow to the late Kleinbooi Ramolla.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MAPOMA: Pardon, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MAPOMA: Yes, it's care of: Bultfontein Hoer Skool, Bultfontein.  She has been notified, Chairperson, and pursuant thereto she dedicated her daughter and son to attend the hearings.  I've consulted with them and they have indicated that they do not intend to oppose the amnesty application except for them to want the mother to be put down as a victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think also the daughter and son as well, being the next-of-kin.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I will in due course have their full particulars.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt and Mr Prinsloo, are you in a position to make submissions now?

MR PRINSLOO: If you so desire, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be better to just make the submissions, then it's finished.  It's better than waiting for written submissions.

UNKNOWN: As it pleases, Mr Chairman.
	Honourable Chairperson and Members of the Committee, it is my respectful submission that the applicant has made a full disclosure.  That he made public all facts which are relevant to this application concerning the deeds for which he applies for amnesty.
That is application in itself is complete and that he meets the specific requirements.  It is completed in the document here and also in the evidence of the applicant, Mr de Wet Strydom and so confirmed by the second applicant.
	Inasfar as the requirements are concerned, Mr Chairperson, firstly regarding the motive.  It was evident that the applicant testifies that it is politically motivated in accordance with an instruction from the AWB to stop the election and it was not for personal gain but with a political objective.  The acts were committed during the time where there was political unrest and there were unrests throughout the whole country and at the stage the applicant committed these acts.
	As to the requirements, as to the legal nature of this applicant as in the case of other judgments that have been given by the Amnesty Committee, I would like to submit that in that instance these acts were committed.
	The objective of the acts as it is required in Section 23(3)(d), I respectfully submit that it is clear that the opposition was the ANC/SACP Alliance and the National Party to a certain extent and it was not aimed on the basis of any racisism which has no political basis at all.
	According to the evidence of this applicant, he acted on instruction of the other applicant, de Wet Strydom, and de Wet Strydom's evidence is that he acted on instruction of the leaders of the AWB, the top structure, Eugene Terre'blanche, General Etsebeth and General Fourie who is now deceased, and he acted for the furtherance of the AWB as required by the Act.  The AWB is also a movement who complies with the requirements of the Act.  It is an organisation and therefore it is clear it was clearly in several of these applications.
	I would like to argue, Chairperson, as to the  proportionality of the acts committed, were not out of proportion.  If one looks at the first act where the person was killed, where the bicycle went over the landmine, where the objective was there to stop the election from taking place and the meeting of the ANC was to be held there.   And with that objective and in the time the act was committed it was not out of proportion.  
	The other acts which were committed at the two schools, at the shop where the explosives did not detonate, by the tower of the SABC where no damage was done or very little damage, that this was also not out of proportion.
	With regards to the liquor store, the evidence of the applicant was that that person was a supporter of the ANC and the purpose was not to kill anybody but to move persons not to participate in the election, as well as that of Agriman and so also the consulting rooms of Doctor Breytenbach whom he believed were members of the ANC.
	At this stage I would not like to burden you with the Committee's judgments when have already been rendered, they have been put forward by you at other instances.  Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms van der Walt?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I confirm the argument of Mr Prinsloo and I would just like to mention certain aspects.  I'm not going to quote all of them but I would just like to point Section 31(b).  This Act was founded so that the Committee's objective was to promote reconciliation and this is the instruction of the Committee.
	I would like to submit to the Honourable Committee that the Committee's objective is to make the application more accessible and to make it easier in the  unit so as to reconcile the country.  I would like to submit that the applicant, according to Section 20(1), has convinced the Committee and specifically to the English Act which says "satisfy".  It can be argued that in the Afrikaans text it must be a heavier burden but I would like to submit that the applicants have convinced the Committee that they are entitled to amnesty and that they complied with all the requirements of Section 20(1)(a).  Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no submissions.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  We will reserve the decision.  A written decision will be handed down in the near future.  I would just like to thank the legal representatives and Mr Mapoma for their assistance in this matter.  I think this will now be a convenient time to take the tea adjournment, it's ten past eleven, and then hopefully we will be able to proceed thereafter with the next matter on the roll, thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS