Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I see the name here.  I recall the name but I can't place it, it's definitely not an internal project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Colbyn? C-o-l-b-y-n.

WOUTER J BASSON: The name appears, it's also an external project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Deplore?

WOUTER J BASSON: The same, Deplore is the project to which I referred earlier relating to the person named Richard.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Larraine?  L-a-r-r-a-i-n-e.

WOUTER J BASSON: Larraine is also a project name in respect of an external project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are there any others that you have on the list there that I haven't mentioned?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, there's a "Direksie 4" and there's a Crawler.  In my diary they're all arranged one beneath the other one, as external projects and on the left-hand side all Region 6 projects were named.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now all these foreign projects that you referred to, those files were handed to the Harms Commission?

WOUTER J BASSON: Well I assume so.  Those are the projects which fell under me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The files however - is it your understanding that they were actually returned to the CCB by the Harms Commission?  I mean the question I'm asking is, why are they missing today?

WOUTER J BASSON: Are you referring to the files that had been shown to the Harms Commission?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, the foreign CCB project files that were handed to the Harms Commission, what happened to them?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, to the best of my recollection and knowledge those files were returned to the storage place, the depot at Special Forces Headquarters and I today am not aware of what happened to any file in this time, in this period.  I wasn't involved in any plan to remove or conceal any of these files.  I can't answer you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you attend the bonfire that Joe Verster referred to?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, I'm not aware of that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now at pages 1203 to 1204 of the Harms record, what happened here is you were read Joe Verster's answers in relation to various projects.  We've had this evidence already before the Committee, but I don't think you were here when Joe Verster gave evidence, or were you?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I wasn't present.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Weren't you?

WOUTER J BASSON: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well this is a reference starting at round about line 15 on page 1203.  Joe Verster was asked whether certain things were CCB projects, you'll see for example, Bruce White, Gavin Evans, Abdullah Omar.

WOUTER J BASSON: I see the names.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  And the answer that he gave was basically to the effect that those people were merely being monitored.

WOUTER J BASSON: May I just get clarity, Chairperson.  Is that a questionnaire which was given to Mr Verster, by whom?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.  Maybe if I can give you the context.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Col Verster was given a list of questions, he deposed to an affidavit which was handed in to the Harms Commission.  He was asked "Are these people CCB projects, what was the CCB's involvement?"

WOUTER J BASSON: Who did the - was it the Police?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well I don't know who gave him the list, the important point is that the evidence which he gave is set out in this affidavit.  You were asked - you were read portions of his affidavit and you were asked, you will see in the middle of page 1204, at round about line 12, whether you agree with what Joe Verster has to say.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I read there that the question was asked to me and I said "Yes, I'm aware of that."

MR KAHANOVITZ: But further on it's apparent from your evidence that you gave evidence in support of Joe Verster's version, namely that there was no project to murder Evans, White or Omar, you say they were merely projects for purposes of information gathering.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I don't agree with you there, Chairperson, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Basson.  Where is that further on portion, Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: You'll see in the middle of page 1204 they then refer him to his affidavit, okay?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And then round about line 25, he says
"My explanation in respect of the incidents mentioned in paragraph 7A, C, D, E, F and G, are exactly the same as that of Verster."
Oh I see, then he says:
"I am not prepared to answer questions about the Athlone bomb incident, the foetus project or about Omar and Evans, since this may incriminate me."
so I must rephrase my question and only ask you in relation to Roskam's car.  You denied to the Harms Commission that that was a CCB project.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, yes, and that was done to protect Mr Verster in a way because of certain denials he'd already made at that stage.  That was the only reason.

MR LAX: But isn't it so that it was also to protect yourself and the whole CCB operation?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I suppose you can say it like that, but although I was aware of Mr Botha who admitted that, it was - to be honest today, it was stupid to do that.  You're under pressure at the time, under pressure from your seniors and you adjust accordingly.

MR LAX: So I mean in essence you associated yourself with the cover-up and you stuck to that version?

WOUTER J BASSON: I was a part of it, I didn't have much of a choice.

MR LAX: No, no, I understand, but just so we're clear about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you'll turn to page 1232 round about line 25, the following question is put to you by Mr Bertelsman, he says
"Alright.  So Mr Britz, how many limpet mines did you handle in 1989?"
and your answer is:
"I don't know whether that question may possibly incriminate me."
and then he says:
"No, no, I'm simply asking you the number, you don't have to specify for which purpose you used the limpet mine or mines.  Mine or mines, one or more."
your answer is:
"Well I can't recall one incident."
Now that answer was false.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, Chairperson.  Once again, it is stated in my diary, so it was simply once again proof of denials, as many denials as possible for the internal application.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now just to go back to Chris Nel's evidence, he says there was careful planning around the kind of evidence that was going to be given at the Harms Commission.

WOUTER J BASSON: Well Chairperson, we all fell under one - well, we all were working with the same legal team, so I suppose that is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says CCB people - and here I'm not necessarily referring to the lower level operatives such as Mr van Zyl, he says in general terms that you were coached to not testify about any, or expose anything that they didn't already know.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, it may be so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But won't you - when you were coached, can you just give us some understandings of how that coaching process took place?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, all that it amounted to was that we had to deny things, the denial of acts and things which might perhaps have appeared in the Section 29 statement and to just deny acts of a lesser violence.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In other words you already knew what van Zyl and others had told the authorities?

WOUTER J BASSON: Well Mr van Zyl, I think, testified first, so it was known.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How did this coaching process take place?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, it wasn't a formal coaching process, all that it was was that we said we wouldn't talk about whatever, we deny things and that's the way we would deal with it.  That's how it happened.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you, for example were not experienced in giving evidence in courtrooms?

WOUTER J BASSON: Are you asking was I?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well I'm asking you whether you were.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, not at all, that was my first appearance.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Exactly.  So you would need to be given some training and guidance as to how to handle yourself in the witness box?