Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

ANSWER: When we searched the group, of which Mr Jama was part, we did not find anything.   The pocketbook was found when he was in the vehicle and when we had left the scene.  The pocketbook was not found at the time when we were searching them at the railway crossing.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRING
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BANADE

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Harrington you said that at this ANC gathering which you were required to monitor the special
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constables were chanting and doing a jig.   Was this group or this shift or this section incited, were you excited or were you worked up in any way?

ANSWER: Yes definitely, if I am to speak on behalf of the special constables, if I myself was a special constable and involved in the Inkatha/ANC, ANC/Inkatha war, it was a sort of victory power dance which they were doing, they were not afraid.   The special constables that worked with me were hardened men, they weren't afraid.

<UNKNOWN>: You were in a very volatile situation at the time.

ANSWER: Yes, because when we escorted the group out of the area where the meeting took place and while they were going into their houses we were quite worked up.

<UNKNOWN>: Just to touch on another aspect, the money which you supposedly received from the sale of the firearms, have you any idea how much it was?

ANSWER: No not at all I cannot put an amount to it and say whether it was R5 000 or R7 000 or as was mentioned here,
R50 000.   I cannot put a tag on it.

<UNKNOWN>: I understand your later evidence as it having been something which you got here and there?

ANSWER: Although I mentioned that we sold between 100 and 150 firearms which we recovered from the ANC people at the time which we disposed of by selling or giving them away.

<UNKNOWN>: Does that mean you did not always dispose of firearms by selling them?

ANSWER: No the Inkatha were like friends to me and sometimes I gave the firearms to them.

<UNKNOWN>: In this period between 1990 and 1991 when you were stationed at the riot squad, was there ever a time
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when you had to give evidence in a court case with regards to any investigations

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: Was it a strange concept to give evidence in court?

ANSWER: I was involved in court cases, for example charges of possession of dagga and so forth and also assault, there was an assault case where I was the accused so court procedure was not a totally strange concept.

<UNKNOWN>: But it was not common practice for you to arrest people for some or other offence and then charge them and so on?

ANSWER: No we did not work with the documents of the investigation at all, for example murder and robbery and so forth, we did not have anything to do with the dockets although we acted on information which we received from Inkatha members or special constables.   For example, the information which we received with the attack on the bus where 18 Inkatha supporters were killed, we launched an investigation.

<UNKNOWN>: What were you going to do with the investigation which you obtained there?

ANSWER: We were going to investigate and see if we could find the firearms which were used and sell them and thereafter we would have gone back to our normal duties, patrol duties.

<UNKNOWN>: If you for example were to have found the attackers of that bus, what would you have done with them, the guilty parties that had attacked that bus?

ANSWER: We would have assaulted them because the assault charge in which I was involved was on a previous occasion
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where we acted on information where somebody had fired at me and the South African Police video team which was shooting the video at the time gave us that information.   We used that information to get to the people that we were after.

<UNKNOWN>: So if you were to have found the correct people would you have assaulted them or done more than that?

ANSWER: We would definitely have assaulted them, it depends at that stage whether one would have reached breaking point as we did in this specific incident.

<UNKNOWN>: The culture which you refer to and the fact that you never reported back, was it expected of you if I may use the word to do with these people as you saw fit?

ANSWER: Yes I could put it that way.

<UNKNOWN>: I don't want you to say that, what were the facts.

ANSWER: That was the impression which we got and that was the way we acted.

<UNKNOWN>: Under that bringing the person to book you would have even killed a man?

ANSWER: I would not say that whether we would have killed the person or severely assaulted the person but it all depends on my indoctrination which that day reached a breaking point, otherwise I'd been applying for amnesty for 10 February and not 24 February.   It just depended on how things went.
EVIDENCE OF MR HARRINGTON

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't know what lies ahead but I'm just looking at what on the face of it appears to be a statement by one of the applicants, Mr Madlala.   That very portion that you've been reading the rest of the contents of the same paragraph do you not think that they should be put to
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the applicant Mr Harrington because there appears, on the face of it, there appears to be quite some material contradictions.   I would think that you would put the rest of the contents to him so that we should get some clarity on which is likely to be the correct version.

MR BRINK: I will, subject to my learned colleague's right to re-examine on the point I think he should be given an opportunity, but I'll do that.   I was more concerned about this pocketbook which appeared to me to be non-existent going by that judgment and this statement, but I will.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It appears that on the face of it there is even a different reason as to why the gentleman was put on the vehicle.

MR BRINK: The witness would like to see the document, particularly paragraph 25.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph what?

MR BRINK: 25.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Harrington I asked you earlier about the pocketbook and the fact that Mr Madlala also indicated that as far as he was concerned, they found nothing on anyone, any one of the 10 you remember that.   He then goes on to say
"After we had finished searching, Mbongeni Jama said these police need to be killed as they had killed IFP supporters at Kwashange.   After I had told Harrington of what had been uttered by Mbongeni, Harrington and Erasmus took him into the back of the police van whereafter Erasmus drove off while Harrington was seated with us at the back.   After a long drive, Harrington took out
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the belt of Mbongeni and started throttling him with it on intervals.   Harrington suggested that Mbongeni be killed as a result Mtokoso directed the van into the big bush where Mbongweni was further throttled on his neck while lying on the ground, by Harrington who was also hitting him against the stone with his head until Mbongeni died.   After Mbongeni died I was forced by Harrington to shoot him with a shotgun, which I did.   The doctor also confirmed in court that Mbongeni had already died when being shot at."
That last sentence that's another matter.  Have you anything to say about that and would you like to have a copy of the relevant paragraph that I read from?

ANSWER: Mr Brink I would like to ask, this statement which was just read to me when was it taken, is it something that is being submitted or what?