Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

CHAIRPERSON: It has become somewhat customary that it seems that these hearings will never will resume.  There are certain technical delays resulting us starting somewhat later than we were scheduled to start.  We apologise for starting late but we had to attend to certain important matters.  Very well now, I gather that there ise this new counsel who wants to place himself on record.  Yes, would you do so Sir?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson, before the new counsel places himself on record I just want to withdraw on behalf of certain applicants.
	I won't be appearing for the following applicants anymore, Jack Mbele and Timothy Stals Mazibuko, Moses Mthembu ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a bit, do you have a list of those?  I'm just going according to my list here.   Okay you said Mazibuko, Mbele and Moses Mthembu?

MR STRYDOM: Moses Mthembu and Petrus Mdiniso.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And the outstanding applicant Mxoliseni Mkhize is not here to give evidence and I will be withdrawing his application as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that he would - let me just record this for the time being.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairman, I think I must word it differently, I'm not withdrawing his application now.

CHAIRPERSON: I would have thought so.

MR STRYDOM: I don't want to do that in his absence, what I'm saying is that I won't appear on his behalf any more.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, now you're asking for leave to withdraw?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, on his behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Now who is your instructing attorney?

MR STRYDOM: My instructing attorney is the firm J H van der Merwe and that firm's representative at the hearings here is Mr Fredrech.  Yes, Mr Fredrech will still be the attorney of record or J H van der Merwe for Moses Mthembu and Petrus Mdiniso but they've instructed another counsel to appear on their behalf but as far as Jack Mbele and Timothy Stals Mazibuko is concerned, Anina van der Westhuizen is the instructing attorney so J H van der Merwe ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute, as far as who is concerned?

MR STRYDOM: As far as Timothy Stals Mazibuko and Jack Mbele are concerned my attorney also withdraws.  Attorney Anina van der Westhuizen has been instructed to appear on their behalf.
As far as the other two applicants which I withdrew from, Moses Mthembu and Petrus Mdiniso are concerned, they are still represented by the same firm of attorneys, J H van der Merwe, but another counsel has been instructed to appear on their behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well.

MR STRYDOM: And lastly Chairperson, I would also want to mention that to the extent that I appeared on behalf of Mr Vanana Zulu on a watching brief basis, my mandate has also been ended and so has my attorneys mandate been ended.  Anina van der Westhuizen also appeared on his behalf.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What is the name of the applicant who you have been appearing for and you are now seeking leave to withdraw from representing?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, that is Mxoliseni Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Mxoliseni Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: I think it's number 14 on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: We have a different list.

MR STRYDOM: On the form it's number 13.

CHAIRPERSON: Number 13 yes, 13.   Do we have the same?  Yes we do, okay.   Mxoliseni Sibongeleni Mkhize, very well.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I then place myself on record on behalf of the following applicants, Mr Jack Mbele, Mr Timothy Stals Mazibuko.  My instructing attorney pertaining to these has been placed on record by my learned friend, being Anina van der Westhuizen.  Regarding Petrus Mdiniso and Moses Mthembu, as you were informed Mr Chairman, I'm appearing on their behalf, the instructing attorney here is Attorney J H van der Merwe.  Regarding the person who had been implicated in these hearings, Mr Vanana Zulu, I'm also appearing on his behalf, instructed by Anina van der Westhuizen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Chair, if it meets with your approval, I informed you in chambers and the learned Members of the Committee that there will be an application.  I am now instructed that the matter had been handed or the application had been handed to Mr Chairman and the Members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, before my learned friend proceeds with his application, might I ask on behalf of the victims if we are entitled to an explanation for this strange state of affairs and that is that my learned friend Mr Strydom has been debriefed in respect of certain applicants and his attorney has briefed Advocate Lowies in respect of two of them, in respect of two other applicants the attorney has also changed.  It appears to us that this is a stratagem designed firstly to increase costs and secondly to have more bites at the cherry so to speak, in other words to have more people to cross-examine the victims when they give their evidence.  There would appear to be no other reason for this odd state of affairs.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished Sir?

MR LOWIES: Mr Chairman no, I would like to place on record whilst I was still busy with the notice of application, you had also been informed Mr Chairman in chambers that for the purposes of the application that I would be acting on behalf of all the applicants mentioned in the application so as to prevent duplication of applications.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: That has been informal arrangements between the parties.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay very well.  Is Mr Mazibuko here?  Would you stand up Sir?  Mr Mbele?   We are informed that the attorney who has been representing you up until the last hearing no longer represents you, do you confirm that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes that is correct.

MR MBELE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And your counsel now is Mr Lowies.  Do you confirm that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes I confirm that.

MR MBELE: Yes I confirm that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sit down.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, Moses Mthembu ...(intervention)

MR LOWIES: May I just assist you in this regard Chairman?  I understand that Mr Mthembu is not available, he is at work and he has problems attending the hearing and he requested to be excused.  The situation is as follows, it has been explained to him that I would be looking after his interests even if it's in his absence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well at least we should have been told rather than us having to enquire about whether he is present or not.

MR LOWIES: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well.

MR LOWIES: Chair now just to assist you in that regard, this position is one hundred percent the same pertaining to Mr Petrus Mdiniso.

CHAIRPERSON: So both of them are not here?

MR LOWIES: Both are not here.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, I did indicate to you in chambers that we would like to read your application first before the matter is argued and that is preferable that it should also be served on the other legal representatives as well so that they consider the application.

MR LOWIES: That is correct Mr Chairman and it's been done, I think there are one or two representatives who haven't received theirs yet but extra copies have been made available.  It will be done in the next minute or so.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We will determine in due course when it will be appropriate to hear this application.  Yes, very well.
Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Are there any others who are not present?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes before we get there, are there any other applicants who are not present?