Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall seeing him there at that stage of our arrival.

MR WILLS: Was he there, can you recall seeing him any time before she died?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR WILLS: And obviously the same as for Mbane?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And Mr Dube?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall Mr Dube, I cannot recall him.  I wouldn't be able to say, if he had to walk into the room now, I wouldn't be able to say who he is, I didn't know him.

MR WILLS: Do you know Mr Myeza?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, I know Mr Myeza.

MR WILLS: Can you recall seeing him at all there that day?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I cannot recall that he was there.

MR WILLS: Would it have been the sort of operation that he would be involved in usually?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not specifically.

MR WILLS: Was he attached to the same unit as Dube and Mbane?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, he was in Mr Taylor's section.

MR WILLS: Oh.   Did the interrogation start immediately after the deceased had arrived, it seems from the evidence so far that she was immediately taken into the room and the interrogation started immediately?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes Mr Chairperson, it began almost immediately.

MR WILLS: And my understanding from your evidence is that you were there throughout the period of the interrogation without leaving the room?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, at stages I did leave the room, I wasn't there permanently.  I was there for a greater proportion of the time, but not all the time.

MR WILLS: So you were coming in and out and also Wasserman was coming in and out?  Is that right?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Was anybody else coming in and out?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: At certain stages Mr Baker also entered or at least he didn't enter, but he approached the entrance.  Yes, he was there, not permanently.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just one point before it slips my mind Mr Wills, it seems from what you have said Mr van der Westhuizen, that quite a few people were coming in and out, it was yourself and Baker and others, would they come in and open the door, come in, close the door, stay for a little while, open the door, go out, close the door?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I recall it happening like that Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not just leave the door open if you've got this traffic coming in and out because we went there this morning, it is quite a private place, it is not like having the door shut is going to make such a huge difference to your privacy in that room?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I understand your question sir, but that is what happened.  I can recall that the door was closed during the interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Wills.

MR LAX: Sorry Chairperson, but clearly the door wasn't closed the whole time?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, not permanently.

MR LAX: And clearly there was a great deal of traffic, different people coming in at different times?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That happened, yes sir.

MR WILLS: Yes, and if you saw, and I assume you were standing on the inside, you saw Mr Baker come to the entrance of the door as you described earlier, the door at that stage must have at least been open?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think he opened the door in order to enter.

MR WILLS: So he entered, he did enter then?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He approached the door and I think the reason why he went there was to hear whether there were any further instructions for him and his section.  He wanted to know whether there was any information for them upon which they would have acted.  He did not enter the room specifically and spend a length of time there.

MR WILLS: What was the purpose for you going out?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't know, I cannot say why.  Perhaps to go and speak to someone, I cannot say why I went in and out.

MR WILLS: How many times do you think you went in and out?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Probably three times, although I cannot recall specifically how many times.

MR WILLS: We have established that you left the room finally because you felt very upset, was it not that you were upset seeing this woman being beaten that made you leave the room on the previous occasions?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.   It wasn't pleasant to observe the abuse.

MR WILLS: Did you think that your colleagues were acting improperly?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It wasn't proper.

MR WILLS: Did you not think that it would be important for you to just call them aside and tell them not to act in this way?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't believe that I would have been able to influence Mr Taylor because he was my senior.

MR WILLS: Is that the only reason?  Let me phrase it hypothetically, had you been senior in rank to him, would you have stopped him?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot respond according to my actions or non-actions at that stage.   It was a very problematic time for us and I cannot say what I would have done if I had been his superior.

MR LAX: What would Taylor have done to you if you had told him to stop at that point?  Be absolutely frank?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think he would have used that sjambok on me, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we could have expected one of the junior members to ask the Colonel to, you know to challenge the Colonel in that situation.

MR WILLS: I am just trying to establish his state of mind at the time, Mr Chairperson, but I will continue.   Would you say that Taylor had lost his temper, you said he would have sjamboked you, he must have been pretty cross?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No sir, Taylor didn't really, he didn't lose his temper very often sir.

MR WILLS: What do you mean, on that occasion or ever?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He wasn't cross at, he was cross I suppose, but it wasn't that he had lost his temper at that stage, during the questioning.

MR WILLS: The evidence has been, your evidence is very different to the other two witnesses who were present at the assault, your evidence is that it wasn't a serious assault.  The evidence of Mr Botha and Mr Wasserman is that she was hit hard and on numerous occasions, with the sjambok?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Both state very clearly that they didn't consider it a serious assault, Mr Chairman.  The evidence is identical in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that is contained in the Exhibits where they say that.

MR WILLS: Let me rephrase, do you agree with them that she was hit hard and on numerous occasions?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct yes Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Can you indicate how many times she was hit in your presence?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think approximately 15 blows, 15 to 20 blows.

MR WILLS: And where was she hit?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: She was hit on her back and I think on her arms, her upper arms.

MR WILLS: And her head?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I can recall.

MR WILLS: And her legs?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do you know why she was hit?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot say why specifically he struck her.  She did respond to questions which were put to her by him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Taylor a sadist, a cruel person?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I wouldn't say that.  He wasn't a sadist.

MR LAX: If I may Mr Wills, sorry.   You have indicated that she was answering questions?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: And yet he carried on hitting her?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: Even though she was giving him answers?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: Well, what sort of, how do you describe that sort of conduct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't think I can explain it sir.

MR LAX: Well then, how can you say he wasn't a sadist?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think that he was trying to get her to give clearer answers.  That would be my answer.