Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, on that particular day the decision was already taken, the decision to kill him was already taken at that time.

MR HATTINGH: Was Obed ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, we know that, but on the particular day, when you were on your way to the hospital, the Advocate's question is when you were on your way to the hospital, did you know you were going there to kill Obed or did you only realise that Obed was going to get killed, when you saw him in the bed.  Is that the question Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: That is correct Mr Chairman.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Our intention to go to the hospital was not to kill Obed, but it was to protect Dumi.  But we got the opportunity as we saw him there.

MR HATTINGH: When you made the enquiries with the staff at the hospital to find out where Obed was, in which ward, did you ask for, were you then already aware of the fact that Obed was in the hospital and did you ask for him in person?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't ask.

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps we could clarify that first.  Mr Khaba in his application and his statement said that the two of you asked where Obed was.  Can you - what are your comments in that regard?

MR PATEL: Just to also be fair to the witness Mr Chairman, Mr Hattingh should tell the witness that Mr Khaba in his evidence said to this Committee that he was the one that did the asking, irrespective of what the form itself says.

CHAIRPERSON: That is so Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Were you present when Khaba asked where Obed was in the hospital?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, I was present.

MR HATTINGH: At that moment, did he ask for Obed by name or what was the position?

CHAIRPERSON: What exactly was his question?  Why we ask that question is that we want to know when the nurse was approached, did you or Khaba know that Obed was in hospital?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The nurses from the hospital, the way they asked Khaba, they asked why did the Black Cat come to the hospital but she told them that they brought one of their members.  Each and every person who is admitted in the hospital is registered.

CHAIRPERSON: That answer doesn't make any sense to me.  It is a simple question, when the nurse was approached by Khaba as you are saying, did he ask where Obed by name was, or did he ask where the Black Cat was or where the Black Cats were?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I don't remember him calling him by his name because he also pretended as a member of the Black Cats.  He pretended as if he didn't know who was in hospital, as he also acted as a member of the Black Cats.

MR HATTINGH: It is still not quite clear, but when you went to the ward where you finally found Obed, while going to that ward, did you know that you were going to find Obed, the person Obed, in that ward?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: You mean when we were on our way to Obed's ward?

CHAIRPERSON: From the nurse to his ward, did you know who you were going to find in that ward?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: All we knew was that there was a Black Cat in there, whether it was Obed or who else, we didn't know, but when we got there, we saw him there.

MR HATTINGH: How long from the time that you entered the ward, did it take until the time that Khaba started shooting at Obed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: It didn't take much, because we just got the person we were looking for.

MR HATTINGH: Did you and Khaba discuss while on your way to Obed's ward that you would kill the person who you were about to find in that ward?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: If Dumsani's life was in danger, we had to remove a Black Cat member who was in there, so that when they come to visit their member, our intention was to kill the person who was in there, as long as the person belonged to the Black Cat gang.

MR HATTINGH: So the fact that Obed was killed that night, he was in fact killed for another reason namely that he was in the hospital, not for the fact that he was on the list to be executed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: When you get an opportunity and the order is issued already, you do what the order says when you get the opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: What the Advocate is saying to you is that before you got into the ward, you had already decided to kill the person who was laying in that bed and you carried no such order to do so?
	You had an order to kill Obed, but you people were going to kill whoever was laying in that bed, and you didn't have such order?  What do you say about that?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I can say the instruction to kill the person who was in the hospital was already issued, because the person who was in hospital ...

CHAIRPERSON: You had an order to kill Obed.  Before you got to that ward, according to what you say, you had already decided to kill that person, whoever you were going to find there in that bed.  That is your evidence.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct because that would cause problems for Silas and Dumsani.

CHAIRPERSON: What the Advocate is posing, propositioning is that you had no order to kill a person who you would find in that bed and that is why you killed Obed, because you have decided to kill anybody in that bed and not because you had an order to kill Obed.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I talk about my instruction again.  We were to stop violence, whoever was found in the hospital injured, that means he was participating in the violence, therefore we had to remove that particular person, because he was part and parcel of the violence.

ADV SANDI: Mr Lukhele, if on your way to the hospital, you had met Obed, what would have happened?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We were going to kill him.

ADV SANDI: If on your way to the hospital, you had met any other member of the Black Cats, what would have happened?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: In our township, whoever was a member of the Black Cats was there to attack, so whoever belonged to the Black Cats, were to be killed.

ADV SANDI: So you say it mattered to you not whether you encountered this person in the street or in the hospital?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Are you talking about Obed?

ADV SANDI: Yes?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: According to the hospital records, the incident when Obed was killed in his bed, occurred at approximately one o'clock in the morning.  Would you agree to that?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I can't remember, it was quite some time ago.

MR HATTINGH: In any event, if it was in fact that it was approximately one o'clock in the morning, was Obed asleep when you entered the ward?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: He was asleep.

MR HATTINGH: I further note from the post mortem record that Obed was shot twice through the head.  Perhaps I should just state first that earlier that night, Obed's mother came to visit him in the hospital and what she found was that he had, that he was in hospital and he had wounds to his left arm and to his side and no other gunshot wounds.  Only his left arm and his side.
	But the post mortem ...

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of wounds were those, knife wounds or gunshot wounds?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I think they were gunshot wounds but I will just have to make one hundred percent sure before I make - Mr Chairman, according to the post mortem report there were gunshot wounds to the left forearm.
	In any event, according to the post mortem Obed died from two gunshot wounds to the head.  Was Obed shot through the head by Khaba while Obed was still asleep, was that the position?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I won't be able to answer because I am not the one who was carrying the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but you were there, so you can answer.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The problem is this, if a person is shooting, I wouldn't be able to stand in front of that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Come Mr Lukhele, we are not playing games here.  You saw the man shot and then you say you stabbed at him.  Simple question is, when he was shot, was he asleep or not?