Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

SEBELO NGOBESE: As we were working there in that house at Inanda, Sefiso told me that he had seen other guerillas in Chesterville and police knew that they were already at Chesterville, now he was deciding to take those guerillas from Chesterville to Inanda.  We discussed about this, that it was going to blow our cover in that Inanda, but then we decided to take them.  When they arrived at Inanda, we reported the matter to our offices in Swaziland and we told them that we were staying with them and after a while we heard that someone from Swaziland came to fetch them.  I was staying with Sefiso at Clermont.  We left Clermont for Pietermaritzburg.
	Whilst we were in 'Maritzburg, we received a report that police had raided the house at Inanda.  They came together with Ricky Filanda who was staying with the guerillas at Inanda, but Ricky was arrested somewhere near Empangeni together with other boys he had recruited from Empangeni and when he came back with the police, they searched the house, they found the printer which we were using to print the propaganda for the ANC and weapons.  I heard that they went to Blessing Ninela's work and arrested him and questioned him about what they found in that house at Inanda.
	After a few days we were arrested from Maritzburg, myself and Sefiso.  We were brought to Pinetown police station.  When we were in Pinetown police station whilst they were interrogating us, the police managed to link us to the Inanda house and Blessing as well.  We explained to them that Blessing was not a member of our unit and he was not staying in that house.  He had requested Sefiso to look after the house and he was staying somewhere else, because Inanda was far from where he was working.  Blessing was not a member of our unit.  I think he was released because of that, because of our confession, but myself and the others, we were not released earlier and Sefiso, they've tried to turn him into a state witness.

MS GABRIEL: So what you are saying then is that Blessing was initially linked with your activities?  You were the ANC cell in the area, he was linked with your activities, he was detained and ultimately released.  Is that your evidence?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes, that's correct.

MS GABRIEL: Thank you, Mr Ngobese.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MS GABRIEL: That is all the evidence I wish to lead Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GABRIEL

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you hear from that weapons were found in that house in Inanda?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I will say it was Sefiso because most of the time I was depending on Sefiso for information because he was the one who was involved in communicating with the other members and moving them.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst you were using that house as a printing, as a propaganda centre, you said that some guerillas were taken into the house and kept there for a while.

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes, that's chaired.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Blessing part of that arrangement?  Did he know about that?

SEBELO NGOBESE: No, it was Sefiso and myself and we were in Chesterville, not at Inanda.  He was not involved in the discussion at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Who was in the house when the weapons were found?  Do you know?

SEBELO NGOBESE: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know what weapons were found?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I heard that they had found AK47 and hand- grenades, I don't know how many.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they get there, these weapons?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I don't know whether for sure, the guerillas who were brought by Sefiso from Chesterville to Inanda brought the weapons.  Maybe when they left for Swaziland they left the weapons, that's why when the police came after they had left for Swaziland, they found the weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long were you in detention?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I was arrested in January 29 1987 and I was released just before June 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else you wish from this witness?

MS GABRIEL: Perhaps just one last question which has occurred to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MS GABRIEL

MS GABRIEL: In the time that you knew Blessing Ninela, were you ever aware that he was involved in military activities on behalf ...(end of tape)

SEBELO NGOBESE: No, not at all.

MS GABRIEL: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GABRIEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: How long did these guerillas stay there at the house in Inanda?

SEBELO NGOBESE: It can be three weeks.

MR VISSER: Pardon?

SEBELO NGOBESE: It can be three weeks.

MR VISSER: Three weeks.  How regularly did you visit that house in Inanda?  Every day?

SEBELO NGOBESE: When there were guerillas I never used to frequent the place and I never used to go everyday.  I will only go there when we needed to print.

MR VISSER: How often did that happen?  Once a week?  Twice a week?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it when the guerillas were there?

MR VISSER: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Just clear that.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry.  When the guerillas were not there and you only went there for printing purposes, how often was that?  Once a week?  Twice a week?  Once a month?  What was the position?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Twice a month.

MR VISSER: Twice a month.  So in the period when the guerillas were there, didn't you visit the house in Inanda at all?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I didn't.

MR VISSER: As I understand your evidence you recruited Sefiso to work with you for SAWU, is that correct?

SEBELO NGOBESE: No, Sefiso was an old friend of Ian Samesa, who was a member of SAWU.  I was also a friend of Ian Samesa.  I think we were both recruited by Ian.

MR VISSER: Who was the leader, yourself or Sefiso, or Blessing Ninela?

SEBELO NGOBESE: No, in our unit the commander was Kevin Koshiane.

MR VISSER: And below him?  Who was directly below him?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Myself.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And Sefiso was under you, not so?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I will say so.

MR VISSER: Well, you see, why I ask you these questions is that it surprises one to hear that Sefiso was the one who did everything and you really weren't involved in anything.  You weren't involved in bringing the guerillas to the house, were you?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I was just released, at the time I was just released from Robben Island and I didn't know as to exactly what was going on.  Sefiso was a member of COSAS.  The guerillas were not part of my duties.  Sefiso did this by chance, just helping them out for a while.  We knew that it was just temporary, we were helping the guerillas to escape.

MR VISSER: You don't know how the weapons got there?

SEBELO NGOBESE: No, I don't know.

MR VISSER: Did you know where they were, on the stand, in the house, outside?

SEBELO NGOBESE: No, I didn't.

MR VISSER: What were you convicted of?

SEBELO NGOBESE: For recruiting people for the ANC.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Did it have nothing to do with the fact of the weapons at the Inanda house and the printing press?

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it, just let's get this clear.  You say it had nothing to do with the weapons?

MR VISSER: I'm asking him.

CHAIRPERSON: And the printing press.

MR VISSER: And the printing press.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you see when he's recruiting people for the ANC, he might be using the printing press for that purpose, isn't it?

MR VISSER: Perhaps.

CHAIRPERSON: Just draw the distinction.

MR VISSER: Perhaps you're correct, I should distinguish.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: Can I also ask you just while you're at it to distinguish between which conviction you're talking about as well.  He may have had more than one, we don't know.

MR VISSER: Well, I wasn't aware of that, thank you Sir, Commissioner.

MR VISSER: How many times were you convicted and sent to prison in regard to political activities?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I was arrested for the first time in 1977 and I was convicted and I was released in 1984,  And in 1987 I was arrested again.  I was never convicted, I was acquitted.

MR VISSER: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: He was released.