Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew you going to plant a bomb and you're going to detonate the bomb and people are going to be killed, is that not true?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think before we take these people's lives just for final sake let's just contact head office and just find out if maybe we did succeed in obtaining this Volkstaat?

J H VLOK: And the question is?  No we did not contact them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think about it?

J H VLOK: No Chairperson because I believed that I was there to perform my task and automatically it would have come from the top if we had to stop.  It was my task and I had to perform it.

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell me, when you received the instruction - I'm not quite sure what was your exact instruction but as I understand your evidence at least you had to take these people to a farm.

J H VLOK: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened if you said "I don't want to"?

J H VLOK: At that stage I do not know but then I believed that there was no turning around, that's what Nicolas Barnard also told us.  My purpose was there that I wanted to achieve my purpose and we also had an oath in the Garde which said that if you turn around or you turn away from them you would be shot and at that stage we were in a war situation and there was no turning back.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason - let me put it this way - is that what you were scared of, that you might be killed, you might be shot dead?

J H VLOK: Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you fear that you might get shot?
In other words, the possibility that if you turned around that you might be shot - did you believe in that possibility?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking this question because several times during your evidence you make mention of the fact that you acted according to instructions and that these instructions, you were following these instructions.  Now these instructions, did you obey them under force, under coercion?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, not at all, I was there because I believed in the principles of the AWB and that was why I was willing to even give my life for the cause.

CHAIRPERSON: Because Mr Kriel and Brasher asked you did you not think about the lives of the people who died and both times you answered "I acted according to my instructions" that's why I'm asking you - did you feel that act under coercion?

J H VLOK: No Chairperson, I acted in accordance with what I believed which was the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think about the lives that you were going to take?

J H VLOK: No Chairperson because at that stage I was desperate to share my Volkstaat with my people and to stop the elections so that our demands would be met.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you're saying that the policy as you understood it and you believed in this policy that each race in this country must look after itself.  Did I understand you correctly?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how many races were you thinking about?

J H VLOK: Well Chairperson, at that stage I saw it as all the different nations who lived together in this country.  Each one had the right to self-determination.

CHAIRPERSON: But how many races or nations were you taking into consideration then?

J H VLOK: If you say take into consideration, what do you mean?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, how many did you think about?  That in this country how many of them should govern themselves in this country?

J H VLOK: At that stage I thought about the ANC government and the same way they wanted South Africa, we as Afrikaner Boerevolk wanted our own bit of ground, Chairperson, our own bit of land because we knew that the ANC would win the elections, it was quite evident from the amounts of people representing the ANC and looking at the amounts representing the Afrikaner Volk, you can't even compare it and it's impossible to win an election.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about elections, Mr Vlok, I not talking about states of nation, I'm simply asking you - if it was the policy as you understood it - the policy of the AWB that is - that each nation must look after itself, how many nations were you talking about within this country?

CHAIRPERSON: Each one that's being represented, Chairperson, Tswanas, Xhosas, Vendas, Portuguese people, each one, Greeks, the English and the Afrikaners.

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder how that flag would have looked.  In any case, what did you did in the furthering of this policy that each race would look after itself - or nation?

J H VLOK: Please repeat, I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you or the AWB do to further this policy, the policy which says each person must look after itself, each nation must look after itself.  For example you named Tswanas or Greeks - what would you do with regard to the Greeks?  How would you have helped them?

J H VLOK: No, then I misunderstood you Chairperson, I will take you back to the answer earlier.  From what I understood from your question was that you were asking me who are all represented in this country and that's how I saw it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it get's to that, what I really want to know is, how many nations did you conceive who would be looking after themselves?

J H VLOK: I do not understand what you mean, what did you conceive, I cannot remember the question before that?

CHAIRPERSON: If there were so many nations in this country and each nation agrees that they want self-determination, then it wouldn't have been necessary to obtain an Afrikaner Volkstaat for the Afrikaner Boere, because then everybody would have lived in South Africa without problems, is that not true?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, I saw that we as Afrikaner volk also had the right, as all the other nations, we had the right to live in our own land.  The fact of the matter is, the Afrikaner Boerevolk did not have a piece of land of it's own where he can be governed by his own people where they cannot be governed by their own Boerevolk leaders and that's why I identified to that, that's why I fought for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say it was a possibility and the Greeks and the Tswanas and everyone, they all agree - but South Africa was not divided in areas like that.  Now in terms of the policy of the AWB, what did you do in order to accomplish that on behalf of the Greek people?

J H VLOK: I did not represent the Greek people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but how would the AWB accomplish this, all these small little states, surely it couldn't only be for the Afrikaner Boerevolk according to your policy?  According to your policy you couldn't only have it for the Afrikaners, according to your policy each nation must have his own piece of land.  How did you try and bring about the policy of the AWB with regards to all the nations?

J H VLOK: Unfortunately, I still don't understand you.

CHAIRPERSON: The Volkstaat, if I understand you correctly, the Volkstaat idea was for the Afrikaner where they would be governed by the Afrikaners.

J H VLOK: No, outside of the borders of the Volkstaat, the rest of the nations would have been able to govern themselves and they would have had their say to the government.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't understand you because earlier in your evidence you spoke about the purity of nations, do you remember that?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the purity of nations, I understand is Greeks, Tswanas, is that not true.

J H VLOK: Yes, each is a nation on it's own.

CHAIRPERSON: And it's the policy of the AWB?

J H VLOK: Each one has a culture of it's own, a religion and principles according to which they live and that's what the AWB is trying to achieve.

CHAIRPERSON: But up until 1994, up until that time, what did the AWB do in terms of the Greek states in South Africa, what did they try and do to try and accomplish that?

J H VLOK: Nothing that I know of Chairperson, nothing.