Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: ...(indistinct) are they because they are innocent but I say they are not innocent.

MR MADIKIZELA: Let's go back to this incident at Willowvale.  I'm instructed that on the day in question when you went out on your investigative duties there was no operation planned or under way.  You merely went out to investigate and out there on the way you got some information about the suspects that were being housed in this homestead.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is not true.  We prearranged for the operation and we had brand new firearms.  We got them from the office.

MR MADIKIZELA: Where was this arrangement made concerning this operation?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was arranged at Bothastal offices.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed that when you left the Umtata jurisdiction and ended in Willowvale you immediately fell under the command of the branch commander, security branch at Willowvale.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There's no such.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that as part of the Police protocol, when you entered Willowvale you were supposed to the branch commander, security branch.  What do you say to that?  That is, you report your presence that you were investigating under his jurisdiction?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We did that.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that this operation at this homestead was planned at Willowvale where you called up for back up and you waited until the following morning to go to the homestead, not at Bothastal.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I told you initially that the cars and firearms were acquired when the operation was being planned.  Even the planning took place here in the Bothastal offices.  We left for Willowvale fully aware of what was going to happen there.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed that this Gen Kupe who came from Butterworth was in charge of the security branch in the Southern Transkei, hence when you needed some reinforcement you consulted him and not Bothastal.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There is nothing like that.

MR MADIKIZELA: According to you, Mr Siqhola, who would you say was commanding this joint operation because we have heard there were members of the TDF, members of the anti-riot unit, members from Pretoria.  According to you who was commanding this joint operation?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Officers from the security branch

MR MADIKIZELA: You want to tell the Committee that they were commanding even the people from Pretoria and soldiers from the TDF, fell under the command of security police?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did explain that the soldiers and anti-riot wouldn't take part in anything without getting an instruction from the person who had instructed them.  They will always wait for the instructions on what to do and they would act after given the authority to do so.  That operation belonged to the security, the troops and anti-riot unit would wait for the command.

MR MADIKIZELA: Did you know say under cross-examination although I don't remember clearly, that when you arrived there you were ordered to stand aside.  I think I heard you saying something about that members of the security branch whilst on this in where ordered to stand aside, didn't you say something like that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct but I did motivate that statement and I said we were constables and among the soldiers there was an officer.  It doesn't matter, any officer.  If you are an NCO he is in charge of you.  There was an officer among these soldiers that is why we had to step back.

MR MADIKIZELA: During that time when you had stepped back, who was in command, who was in charge of the proceedings?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was Lt Mandela.

MR MADIKIZELA: Is it not correct that Lt Mandela is a soldier not a security branch - I mean a security officer?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes he is a soldier.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed that you are not telling the truth when you say the Generals that you have mentioned in your affidavit and other security officers would be present during the interrogation.  I'm instructed that the Generals you have mentioned in your affidavit were stationed at Bothastal, the interrogations would happen at Norwood and that they have never been there during any of the interrogations?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I also did not imply that.  I only said they were aware of what was happening during interrogation.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed, deny that the - personally assaulted any of the suspects that were detained as you have alleged in your affidavit somewhere that at one instance the Generals would assault suspects and when they are hurt they will be handed over to you to finish them off?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No one in the security branch who can claim that he was never involved in the assault.  If there is anyone saying that, that is a lie.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed to deny that they were aware about the assaults, torture and ill-treatment that took place during your interrogation because not a single suspect ever reported to them about being tortured, ill-treated and assaulted?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: They are making a mistake.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm instructed that they would only learn that when they received civil claims and letters of demands from attorneys who were representing suspects who claimed to have been assaulted during their detention and interrogation but they have never had any physical encounter with the suspects?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: They are making a mistake.

MR MADIKIZELA: I'm further instructed here that Gen Kupe was never stationed at the security branch.  What do you say to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't it put that he was the head of the Southern Transkei security branch?

MR MADIKIZELA: No, a correction is being made here, that was attached to the detective branch, Southern Transkei.  No not, security branch, that's the correction he is making.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR MADIKIZELA: Apparently there's a distinction, it's a different branch altogether, not security.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying that Gen Kupe was not attached to the security branch at all but he was attached to the Southern Transkei - what's it?  Criminal Investigation Division?

MR MADIKIZELA: Detective Branch, Southern Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Detective Branch, Southern Transkei.  What do you say to that, Mr Siqhola?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He was at the security and I was apprehended by him during the times of General.  Then I was questioned or investigated in Blackway with branch commander from Dovimvaba and Molo who is also one of the security members and Koepies.

MR MADIKIZELA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADIKIZELA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Madikizela.  Mr Dukada, do you have any re-examination?

MR DUKADA: Yes ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, let me before you start, let me ask Mr Mapoma if he has any questions to ask?

MR MAPOMA: Just one question, Chairperson.
	Mr Siqhola, I want to - in fact I put it to you that the act of burning down Mr Jafta's shop and house was completely out of proportion with your intended political objective when you were there.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Mr Dukada, do you have any re-examination?

MR DUKADA: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, Honourable Members.
	You said in the statement that when you were preparing to go to the Jafta house at Willowvale you had been told that the Jafta family had been harbouring terrorists?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.