Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   No, Sir.  No, that position or whatever wasn't the driving force or the reward for what I was doing.  I was doing what my work is and what I understood within the context of the country was.  For ambition-wise I studied very hard.  I studied and became an officer at a very young age, and maybe at too young an age.  So I think in terms of ambition I was prepared to study and to work hard for it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, I am not suggesting that you got that title of a lieutenant as a result of that.  My question was were you not driven by the ambition for promotion to commit that type of crime?

WITNESS:   In terms of meaning that it

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /was a

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: was a reward for me or something?  I am asking.  As a reward?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In terms of the authorities seeing that you are a committed policeman.

WITNESS:   It could be one of the factors.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now, you have said that you committed these crimes -or rather this whole thing, this operation, was on the instructions of Major Terblanche.

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, that is correct.  That is where the whole thing was - between him and myself this whole thing was arranged, because he was then head of the Riot Unit.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You do not agree with the suggestion that you were seen that particular night and you fired some shots?

WITNESS:  No, Sir.  I would have told you if I was there.  I would have said to you today.  I would have said I was there.  I find it more difficult to explain this whole incident with my not being there.  It would have been far easier for me to say, "Yes, I was there and this is why it happened."  I find it very difficult, and I would never ever try and sabotage my chances or any possibility of getting a second chance in life just for that little, little factor.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Some of the victims were children, isn't it?

WITNESS:  Yes, Sir, that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You didn't expect children to be killed.

WITNESS:   No, Sir.  No, that was not what we envisaged.  Not what I envisaged, no.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But if you attack any house at 1 o'clock in the early hours of the morning wouldn't you expect that children would be there sleeping in that particular house?

WITNESS:   No, it was - what we thought would happen was that

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /the Comrades

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: the Comrades would have grouped together to defend off the area, that they would have been together, not that they would have had women and children with them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was your information that that house was being exclusively used by the Comrades?

WITNESS:   The information was that the Comrades gathered together in groups to defend off the area, because that whole particular area is a UDF area.  They also used - in that particular area they used to scale the trees to use as a look-out for when the police came, things like that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Who was in command of the operation that swept the area that morning?

WITNESS:   That was Captain Terblanche.  You see, he was head of the Riot Unit and he was the one that organised that the Riot Unit come that morning to do that operation.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The instructions that you gave the constables with regard to that particular house was that they should just attack the house and shoot whoever was inside that particular house, assuming that it was the correct house?

WITNESS:   Yes, we envisaged that the Comrades would be armed as well, that there would be some sort of retaliation.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us that you were the secretary of the Joint Management System.

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it have any other officers besides a secretary?  Did it have a chairman or a leader of the Joint Management System?

WITNESS:   Sorry, Sir, just say that again.

CHAIRPERSON: You were secretary of the Joint Management System.  Did the Joint Management System then have somebody else as an officer, as chairman or leader?

WITNESS:   No, I don't understand the question.

WILSON J: In Pietermaritzburg, before you went out you

WILSON J: /were

WILSON J: were secretary to the Joint Management Commission.  Now, who was the chairman at that stage?

WITNESS:   Okay, of the sub JMC, which is the Pietermaritzburg sub JMC, is the Pietermaritzburg chair, was the then divisional commissioner would have been the chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what his name was?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, it was a Brigadier Kotze.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went to New Hanover and took control of the station the area as a whole fell under your control, and you were then still secretary of that Joint Management System.

WITNESS:   I was chair ... (incomplete)

CHAIRPERSON: When went to New Hanover you became chairman - I am sorry, thank you very much.  So at the stage when this incident occurred you were chairman.

MR DE JAGER: You told us that during the morning the area was swept and certain people taken away so that it could be prepared for an attack in the evening.

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, this is what happened.

MR DE JAGER: Was there in fact an attack in the evening, during the evening?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, the Inkatha people attacked a lot of houses and set them alight, activist's houses and that.

MR DE JAGER: So apart from the four constables there was an attack by Inkatha people, the Inkatha Youth, or even seniors, I don't know, and you dropped the four constables at a certain house.  Were they kept there at the house?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, they stayed at Mr Gabela's house.  He was the Inkatha leader of the area, and the man that accompanied us to Pietermaritzburg on that day - a couple of days before that.

MR DE JAGER: So he knew all about the coming attack and he was

MR DE JAGER: /informed

MR DE JAGER: informed about it.

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, he was part of the meeting that sat at Morawa House, the Inkatha head office, with David Ntombela.

MR DE JAGER: Was he instructed to point out the house or what was his role in this attack?

WITNESS:   No, he just sat on - he just stood by the meeting that we had at his house when I arrived there that evening to fetch the four special constables.

MR DE JAGER: Did you speak to him on fetching the four constables?

WITNESS:   (No audible reply)

MR DE JAGER: And he was acquainted with the area and the specific house that should be attacked?

WITNESS:   Yes, sir, he was acquainted with the area at the top.  He was - he'd lived in that area for many years, he knew the area.

MR DE JAGER: How far from his house was this house that should be attacked, the target house?

WITNESS:   As the crow flies?  No, why I ask you that, Sir, is because if you go with a vehicle it's much further.

MR DE JAGER: (Inaudible) ... flies.

WITNESS:   I'd say almost a kilometre.

MR DE JAGER: Could this house be seen from his house?

WITNESS:   No, Sir, it can't.

MR DE JAGER: Did he take part in the attacks?

WITNESS:   In the attacks of the - the first lot of attacks, I am not certain of that.  I don't recall asking him whether he was part of it, because I accepted him being part of the leadership, but being an oldish man I didn't envisage him being one who would be able to do it.

MR DE JAGER: Now, the four constables, they were strangers in the whole area.  How was it planned how should they know which house to attack?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, that was - it was

MR DE JAGER: /explained

MR DE JAGER: explained to them at the meeting that we had beforehand, before I dropped them off that they must look for this, that it would be a gathering - a place where the Comrades came together, that they would be together, and this was the thing that we discussed before going.  But I say with hindsight, yes, it was very poorly planned and very stupidly done, and this is how it culminate into such a grave mistake.