Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think we've all overlooked it and I want Mr Ndou to pay particular attention.  He was convicted and I thought everybody who appears for all the applicants would have known this.  He was convicted of count 2 in the alternative, being public violence.  Count 2 was a count in respect of an unlawful attack on the property of the deceased on the 28th of February.
	He's also convicted on count 3 which was an attack on the same house on the 6th of April.  
	And he was also convicted on count 7 during this attack at that house on the 6th of April the deceased was killed.  So Petrus doesn't feature in this application.  
	Come on Mr Ndou, you should be aware of this.  Proceed Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Okay, thank you.  Given that oversight then Sir, could you just briefly explain to us what your role was at Mr Mahvunga's house on the 28th of February, sorry, Edward yes, the deceased, on the 28th of February.  Not on the 6th, not on the day when he was killed, what was your role in that public violence incident?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well on the 28th of February at Edward Mahvunga's place I was in the midst of the youth who went to put the house on fire so that he could be evicted from Mahvunga Village.  I was one of those people who burned one of the rooms in Edward Mahvunga's house.

CHAIRPERSON: On the first attempt?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes, if I am not mistaken it was on the day when Petrus Mahvunga's house was burned down.  I might be mixing the date.

MS PATEL: Maybe I can help you.  The public violence matter for which you were convicted occurred on the same day that Petrus Mahvunga's house was burnt down.  Does that help you?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you repeat the statement.

MS PATEL: I am saying the public violence charge for which you were convicted, the burning of the house of Mr, or burning of the property of Edward Mahvunga occurred on the same day that the house of Petrus Mahvunga was burnt down.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well that is why I in my answer said I could not remember exactly whether it happened on the same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway look what did you do there at the deceased's house on the first attack?  That's what we want to know.

JOHN MASITHULELA: On the first day of the attack we were so many.  We found Boshoff Mahvunga, Mtengeni Mahvunga, they were the ones who were in the yard.  When we saw the group of the youth coming towards the house they ran away, jumped the fence.  When they left the youth who were there started destroying or breaking the windows.  I was also involved in doing that.  I was also involved in the arson case ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How did they start ...(intervention)

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well they were just throwing stones.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And that was an attack on the deceased's house on the 28th.  Was it burnt that day or not?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it was burned on the same day.

CHAIRPERSON: But not at that attack - or when?  When they started throwing the stones was it that same incident where the house was burnt?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Just when the stones were being thrown the other ones were burning.

CHAIRPERSON: The other incident is when the house was burnt on the 6th of April.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you repeat that please.

CHAIRPERSON: There were two incidents of attack on the deceased's house, correct?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Are you referring to Edward Mahvunga's house?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he's the deceased.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  The one occurred for the purposes of this application on the 28th of February.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other one occurred on the 6th of April when Edward was killed.

JOHN MASITHULELA: What I did was to throw stones ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No wait we are coming - I am just trying to identify the incidents.  Do you agree?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Now on the 6th of April you were convicted and you make application for amnesty in respect of arson in that that house of Edward was burnt on the 6th of April.

JOHN MASITHULELA: It is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's go to the 28th of February.

JOHN MASITHULELA: That is what I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When the stones were thrown.  You threw and other colleagues of yours threw stones, broke windows etc.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst the house burnt on that day.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes, it was burned.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it was burnt a second time on the 6th of April.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Ms Patel.

ADV DE JAGER: The first burning of the house in February, did Edward already receive a "trek pass" at that stage?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I don't know.  Well I said regarding the "trek pass" I only learnt from my colleagues or other people.  When that was happening I had already been arrested on charges of arson on Petrus Mahvunga and Edward Mahvunga.  I was already in jail when all those kind of things were happening regarding the "trek pass".

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't know anything about the "trek pass" until after the arrest?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I didn't know anything.  That is why I was saying I had an imaginary view of what happened regarding the "trek pass" and I also learnt it from other people.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you learn it from the other people?  When did you for the first time hear of a "trek pass"?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I for the first time when I heard about the "trek pass" was after the death of the deceased.

ADV DE JAGER: So they were not telling him there - "listen here's a "trek pass" you should move out, you should go away and then we leave you", they didn't try to persuade him to go and tell him "listen we've got a "trek pass" for you"?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you repeat the statement.

ADV DE JAGER: That on the 6th of April, the day when he was killed, didn't the people tell him "listen you should move out, we've got a "trek pass" for you.  The Chief issued a "trek pass" - go, and then we won't attack you"?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well he was told.

ADV DE JAGER: Now didn't you hear it?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I didn't hear that.  I only learned that some people who were on the other side said or declared that -there were a lot of things which were said.  No one will really identify that so-and-so said the following things.  There were so many people and people were shouting and ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: You are trying to evade my question.  Did you hear about a "trek pass" before the man was killed?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I said I heard about the "trek pass" after this man had already died.

ADV DE JAGER: So on the day of the killing you didn't hear people say, "move out of the vicinity, you've got a trek pass, get away from our village"?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I didn't hear that at the place where I was.

MS PATEL: Did you hear about the list that there was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you tell me earlier, or tell us earlier that you heard about this "trek pass" in the meeting, the youth meeting when you people were discussing this whole issue, before the man died?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I said I heard about the "trek pass" and they said there was a meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you tell me earlier that you were called to a meeting where this man was discussed and then you went to his house?  That's what you said.

JOHN MASITHULELA: That was on the day when the late died.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  Before he died.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I heard that before he died.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are telling my colleague that you only heard about it for the first time after he died.  You were in jail or wherever.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes, well logically what I want to say is that I was in jail, yes it's true, but I enquired and I was told about it.