Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-25

ADV DE JAGER: And how many coins in each bag?

MISHEK MAY: There was in small groups.  There could be five in a plastic or one or two in one of the plastics.  The plastic bags were not full with coins.

MR MTHEMBU: And the items of clothing?

MISHEK MAY: Are you referring to the clothes?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MISHEK MAY: Could you explain what about the clothing?

MR MTHEMBU: That what happened to the clothing?

MISHEK MAY: The clothing in the car and everything that was in the car the policemen seized them as they were, all of them.  The clothing was still in the car.

MR MTHEMBU: And the money that could be used, was it also found in the car?

MISHEK MAY: Yes it was found inside the car.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir are you a member of the PAC?

MISHEK MAY: Yes it is so.

MR MTHEMBU: When did you become a member?

MISHEK MAY: If I recall in 1990.  I think it was in January.

MR MTHEMBU: Were you also a member of its military wing, APLA?

MISHEK MAY: I did endeavour to be in this military wing of APLA, if I can recall I think it was about 1991.  I think it was in '91 towards October or September, October/November.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir have you received any military training and if so when and who trained you?

MISHEK MAY: I received military training.  However, it was not complete according to military training.  I have undergone military training in November.  The training at the township where we stayed, towards the periphery there's an open space, it's a big open space leading far away from the township.  That training lasted for about three nights or two.  It so happened that comrade Showa who was the person responsible for this military training of the task force training, however, there were some APLA members who came around.  It so happened that he had to leave us.  That is the kind of training we received which was not that complete.

MR MTHEMBU: That very same incomplete training, did you receive it on a one-off occasion or not?

MISHEK MAY: That is the only time I received for military training.

MR MTHEMBU: Now I see in paragraph 7(b) of your application, "state capacity in which you served in the organisation or liberation movement concerned, if applicable and membership number if any".  Now you say you are a PAC task force member.  Could you explain to this Committee how this task force links up with the PAC and/or APLA?

MISHEK MAY: The objective of task force that I'm referring to
there was this call made by Comrade Pama. I think this call, mostly here in Africa was heeded because it was done over the radio.  He was referring to Operation Great Storm.  The objective being to establish Operation Great Storm which was linked with these task forces and APLA as it is because it was APLA's responsibility, it was to be used by task force.  This was the call that was made over the radio, so that it's operations focus on the farms only, against the farmers, the reason being, or the other reason was what we tried to achieve as the organisation explained of the outcry of Africans that the land must go back to its rightful owners.  That is why it was necessary that this kind of operation receives this kind of response.  It was an example even to APLA members who would join Great Storm Operation.

MR MTHEMBU: Now prior to the attack on Mr Fourie, have you been on that farm before?

MISHEK MAY: No Sir.

MR MTHEMBU: Who selected Mr Fourie's farm and do you know for what reason, if any?

MISHEK MAY: Mr Fourie's farm, according to the instruction that we received from comrade John Showa, he didn't mention any farm, but he emphasised that Operation Great Storm is responsible and it's up to us to strengthen it by attacking the farms.  He didn't consider what address we would furnish for our attacks, but we would take out the command as we received it.  We would just go to any other farm.  The four of us, one of them was comrade Leeuw, and Mr Nkgwedi, we decided that we can attack Mr Fourie's farm.

MR MTHEMBU: But no the question was, amongst the four, five or so of you, who decided that Mr Fourie should be attacked?

MISHEK MAY: It was comrade Hendrik Leeuw.

MR MTHEMBU: Did Mr Leeuw give any particular reasons why he was singling out this farm of Mr Fourie?

MISHEK MAY: Briefly he didn't give out the reason for choosing this farm where we could take out this operation.  Afterwards he did give out reasons.

MR MTHEMBU: What you are telling this Committee now is that on the 12th of February 1992 when you went to Stormberg Farm you didn't know any reason why Mr Fourie was going to be attacked.  All you knew was that it was a perpetuation of the principles as enunciated in Operation Great Storm or not?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr - are you giving the evidence or should he give it?

MR MTHEMBU: With due respect Sir, what I want the witness to say is that if he went there with a vague mind ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Ask him to give the answer but don't tell him what you want him to (Speaker's mike is not on)

MR MTHEMBU: Sir are you saying when you went to Stormberg Farm in the day in question you were vague inasfar as why in particular Stormberg Farm should be attacked?

JUDGE MGOEPE: No he's not saying that.  He's not saying when he went there he was vague as to whether the farm was being attacked.  He said at that time Mr Leeuw did not give a reason why Mr Fourie was selected.  Maybe if you want to know what was in the witness' own mind, ask him as to why, in his own mind, he wanted to attack Mr Fourie, what he willingly went there to attack Mr Fourie.

MR MTHEMBU: Very well Sir.  Mr May, if Mr Leeuw didn't give any reasons why this particular farm had to be
attacked, in your own mind, what were you thinking?

MISHEK MAY: The objective of the four of us was to carry out the instruction of our commander.  As we went to these farms we didn't attack the farms.  When Mr Leeuw singled out this farm I went into that farm because that is where the operation was to be carried out.  Then we just have to carry out the instruction as the order was given to us.

JUDGE WILSON: What reason did Mr Leeuw give you later?

MISHEK MAY: When I enquired from Mr Leeuw he told me of his knowledge in the past.  If he did mention that beforehand we could not have agreed.  He grew up on that farm, he worked there for about 15 years and what kind of a person was this White man.  Those were the reasons he gave for us having done that kind of action.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir can you tell this Committee ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly explain, he said what kind of a person that man was, what did he in fact tell you what kind of a person was he?

MISHEK MAY: When he referred to Mr Fourie he said Mr Fourie had cooperation with his workers only.  Then he complained as to the long time he served on this farm working for Mr Fourie until he left without peace at heart.  However, I discovered that it was not because of that reason that he could tell us he didn't understand Mr Fourie and tell us to attack Mr Fourie based on those reasons, because he knew we were not going to concur with him on that point.

JUDGE MGOEPE: No sorry, I just want to clear this up.  Do I understand you to say that, firstly Mr Leeuw did not give you the reasons as to why Mr Fourie was specifically singled out, he only told you later?

MISHEK MAY: Yes Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And the reasons that he gave you later would not have been the reasons for you to single out Mr Fourie, you would not have agreed to single out Mr Fourie given the reasons that Mr Leeuw had given?

MISHEK MAY: Yes they would not agree.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Because you felt that the reasons that he was giving you were more-or-less, one can describe them as reasons relating to his personal relationship with Mr Fourie?