Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  It is suggested to you that because of the general circumstances at night, the elaborate explanation you have given almost a detailed account of how you disposed of the bodies of these two, is been put to you that that was not done, you couldn't have done it.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, it was done as such.

MS POSWA: Can you tell us, as you drove to the Tugela...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I thought we'd passed that and we'd already come to the scene.  I thought we'd already dealt with the shooting.

MS POSWA: There's a point I left out Mr Chairman, can I go back?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS POSWA: Thank you.  As you drove there, all along you mean to tell us that Charles and Shabalala were not aware of what was going on?  They thought that you were still going to the safe-house?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: And when you drove into, when you took that excursion and walked that long distance, what should have been quite a long distance to the river to relieve yourselves, they were still in the dark?

CHAIRPERSON: Truly in the dark really, isn't it, physically?

MS POSWA: Physically in the dark and mentally in the dark as to your intentions with them at that stage?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: And then you, in your testimony you say you swept the blood away from the bushes on the floor to conceal it?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson we broke off branches and swept the ground.

MS POSWA: Again it is highly questionable how you can see the blood in that, at 11 p.m. at night.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, there was enough light.

MS POSWA: Mr Botha, I'd like to put it to you that none of this happened.  In fact this whole story is concocted.  I do not understand how you could take these people so far away and not just bury them where you had buried the other people you were killing at the time.  why drive all that way to Tugela?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, it was done.

MS POSWA: Why?

H J P BOTHA: It was my choice.

MS POSWA: Why conceal their bodies?

H J P BOTHA: Whether I blew up the bodies, or whether I buried the bodies or whether I threw it in the river, that is what I'd done and it was my choice.

MS POSWA: And it is not, it is of no consequence to you.  The fact is that they had been killed.

H J P BOTHA: It was done.

MS POSWA: Let me tell you then, Mr Botha, let me enlighten you that it is very important to the families, the fact that they have not buried their loved ones is of utmost importance.  They could not change the death.  The killings they cannot change, but there has been no closure and I'm sure even you, in your culture, as in every other culture, it is important to have closure when somebody dies and now you sit there and you expect the families to forgive you when you yourself say whether they were blown up or thrown in the river or buried, it is irrelevant.  I think, honestly, I really wonder, I really wonder, Mr Botha, as to your intentions for coming here today.  I really and honestly wonder what you are trying to fulfil.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson right from the start after we had prepared our amnesty applications and when there was a request from the investigative team of the TRC, we proposed to voluntarily point out all the places where we had been involved in instances which we had applied for and therefore we also pointed out the place at the river where Charles and Mbuso were shot and thrown into the river.

MS POSWA: Mr Botha I must really and say also to this Committee that I really do not believe that Mr Botha is serious in his application here for amnesty because in my understanding the spirit of the Act and everything requires somebody to show some remorse and now whether they were blown up or buried or whatever happened to them, they were dead and it doesn't matter and I'd like to put it to you Mr Botha, in our culture it is very important that you bury your loved one and you know where he is.  You accord him his rights and that is where you have missed it, if to you the fact that he is dead would not bring him back with us it doesn't end there.  We cherish our dead.  Those to us are our ancestors and we have certain things that we would perform and it is I think highly insensitive of you to come here and seek forgiveness from the families without having at least researched into that bit because it is to us very, very important and it is, I must say, I have been instructed by the family, the most thing that remains and that grieves them most.  Where are those bodies?  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I must just bring this to your attention.  I make an application simply to put one issue to these witnesses.  It has been brought to my attention by the family members, it has been alluded to by Mr Visser and that concerns the disposal of the motor vehicle.  I made an error in not raising it but I guarantee you I will not be very long in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Mr Botha, there's evidence to suggest that the motor vehicle, the blue Toyota Corolla, that belonged to Shabalala was not burned out as indicated by you in your evidence.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, my learned, before the witness answers, it's an unfair question.  We've got the statements before us.  None of those people say it was Shabalala's vehicle.  My learned friend should just put it correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, but I think I was left with the impression that Shabalala were the only two people who were connected with that vehicle so Shabalala must have had control over the vehicle.

MR VISSER: Yes with a blue Toyota vehicle.  My learned friend is now going to refer to a blue Toyota vehicle.  If he refers to a Toyota vehicle which was blue and whatever happened to it, I've got no objection, but he's putting it that these people that he's referring to and their statements are here and we were going to refer you to them anyway, said it was Shabalala's vehicle, that is not so, Mr Chairman, that's the only point.

MR WILLS: I concede my colleagues objection, Mr Chairperson, I'll rephrase.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLS: There's evidence of a - sorry.  The vehicle that Shabalala was arrested in was a blue Toyota Corolla, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, there is a farm called Mountain View at Camperdown in Natal that was used by members of the Security Branch is that correct?  Are you aware of this?

H J P BOTHA: Yes I am aware of the farm that was used by Col Taylor.

MR WILLS: Have you yourself ever been to the farm?

H J P BOTHA: No, I have never been there.

MR WILLS: Well, I just want to comment that Zebron Thusi, do you know Zebron Thusi?

H J P BOTHA: No, not at all.

MR WILLS: He seems to be somebody under Col Taylor's command and Philip Zungu make statements, commencing at pages 15 and 19 or Exhibit F, where they indicate that a blue Toyota Corolla was in fact cut up.  Is it not possible that this was the blue Toyota Corolla of Mbuso Shabalala?

H J P BOTHA: No, Chairperson, Mbuso Shabalala's blue Toyota Corolla was burned.

MR WILLS: So your evidence will be to the effect that this was not the same Toyota Corolla?

H J P BOTHA: I don't know to which they refer to Chairperson.