Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: My attitude then and today is that if, in those days at least, if a peaceful transition takes place, then we are going to find a political solution for the country where everybody can live and prosper.  If a transition does not take place in a peaceful way, then we might land up in a situation as you find nowadays that the Democratic Republic of Congo, to my opinion, the situation at the time, was definitely in a status where the chance of a civil war in the country, was not to be ruled out.  That would have been detrimental to all the people here and as far as my personal interest was concerned, was that I wanted to stay in the country, all my adult life I have been here, so therefore I have a vested interest that the political transition goes as smoothly as possible.

ADV SANDI: Can I take it that it is entirely for that reason that you took part in this operation to prevent Mr Mbotoli and his group from doing what they were about to do?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: The political aspect of this is correct, the answer is that I wanted to get involved because I didn't want the Transkei, also a military government at the time, to be overthrown by the South African government in order to impose a political situation which would be contrary to the peaceful transition the way I see it.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Mapoma.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Thank you sir.  Now apart from this operation, is there any other operation you were involved in with a view to encourage transition?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: There was no other operation because at that time, as far as the Transkei is concerned, there was no need for any other transition because preventing coups was at that time the only threat from the outside, coups were the only threat to the situation.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Thank you, I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR Z. MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Mr Mazaham, do you have any re-examination?

MR MAZAHAM: No, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAZAHAM

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to ask my panel members if they wish to put any questions.  Mr Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson, just one question about the lottery.  You said the lottery did not even begin to get off the ground, what was the reason for that?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: The major reason was the lottery was approved and then the press climbed in.  I think mainly it was the Daily Despatch.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising Mr Mazaham?

MR MAZAHAM: No sir, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAZAHAM

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, Ndengezi, Mapoma's, any questions arising from ...

MR NDENGEZI: No questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDENGEZI

UNKNOWN: No questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Moringer, that then concludes your testimony.  Thank you.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazaham, at the start you indicated that Mr Moringer was going to be your only witness?  Is that still so?

MR MAZAHAM: Sorry, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is anybody else going to lead any witnesses?
MR Z. MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, from the victims' side, we have Mr Mbotoli, he wants to make a certain statement to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: He just wishes to make a statement, not under oath, or do you wish to take an oath and then be subject to cross-examination, what is the position?
MR Z. MAPOMA: Chairperson, the substance of the statement is not going to necessitate cross-examination, we guarantee, it is just a statement that he wants to make.

CHAIRPERSON: Because we normally, very often have victims just making statements, rather than taking an oath and giving evidence.  Mr Mbotoli, certainly, if you wish to make a statement, you are free to do so.  You can speak in Xhosa if you wish or in English, whatever your choice is.  You may remain seated, it is in fact more convenient with the microphones.

MR MBOTOLI: Thank you Mr Chairperson and your honourable colleagues.  I wish to take this opportunity as follows:  before I go to the issue about this amnesty application to you and your colleagues sir, allow me first to introduce myself as follows.  I am Vulindela Mbotoli, born of the Thembo family, some 59 years ago.  My above parents in the community of (indistinct), in the district of (indistinct), in this region, taught me early on in my life to distinguish between right and wrong and they taught me discipline, loyalty to our society.   Yes of course this placed me for a long time in a very, very strenuous pain soul wise, because I was humiliated, I was a politician, a businessman for a long time.   My family was disrupted, my children lost their chances of education, but however sir, in all that it is my view, because of this background of the teachings of my parents, of my community in my early ages, and because of my current kind of life as a follower of Christianity, which always put an emphasis that is seeking solution for peaceful results as a hope of better green pastures, I know Rayner as he said, I needed to put an emphasis on that, I have travelled with him beyond the borders of former Transkei and elsewhere, I have introduced him to various leaders in our neighbouring black African States for his business, because he is an able, capable businessman.  President Mandela, our leader, has in many occasions emphasised the importance of pardoning one another in our society.  Looking around of my strains that I have experienced while I was never in the political scenario, up to this date, I might be consoling myself to say I am not worse off than the rest of the victims that have suffered.  Some are no more existent, possibly I am still having chances to achieve something or rebuild the future of my family, which is completely disrupted.  It is a well known fact sir, that I got incited in this nasty incidents because of my rights that I worked for, which my company took full responsibility and delivered because of the development of this region, in particular Transkei.  Be that the case, our Head of State, which is the first in a democratic society of South Africa, that unique character in as far as the reconciliation is concerned, President Mandela has contributed in my culture of pardoning those affecting and disturbing my rights in many ways and consequently sir, I need to say I am here to grant this amnesty application for Mr Rayner Maria Moringer, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Mbotoli.  We appreciate the sentiments that you have expressed.  Are any of the other legal representatives of mind to call any witnesses?

MR NDENGEZI: No, Mr Chairman.
MR Z. MAPOMA: I am not calling any witnesses sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I am not going to call any witnesses, Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Then that then concludes the testimony in this hearing.  Mr Mazaham, will you be ready to argue after lunch or make your submissions?

MR MAZAHAM: Certainly Mr Chairperson.  At this stage though, however, I do believe that Mr Moringer would like to say one word as a personal gesture in the spirit of the hearings, particularly in the light of what was just advanced by Mr Mbotoli, if he may just have that opportunity for a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly.  Mr Moringer, you wish to make a statement, you may do so.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Mr Chairperson, Vuli, I appreciate what you said just now and I think what happened at the time, I think - also I didn't like it - I think for various reasons it was at the time, the right decision.  I am sorry and regret the harm which came to you.