Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

CHAIRPERSON: And that's the first instance he speaks of him being shown to another room.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That could be so, Chairperson.  I promise you, I can't remember.  If I could remember, I'd tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	According to your explanation, Thulo may not have been allowed into the debriefing of Betty Boom, but why wouldn't he have been allowed into the debriefing of Nomasonto?  I mean, neither Jantjie or Jagga had worked with Nomasonto before, they first saw her when they were told by Betty Boom, according to the evidence, "go and fetch Nomasonto and tell her that I've called for her."

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I only can assume that it was part of the recruiting action, that he wasn't part of the recruiting action.

MR LAX: Well you see that's kind of strange, because only he and Jantjie went to fetch her, so you'd think that they being the two that fetched her, would be the two that she was most familiar with.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.  Chairperson, I'm just wondering why these questions weren't asked to Mr Jagga and Mr Jantjie, they were busy with the recruitment and so on.  Perhaps they could have given more light on this matter, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: No it comes to light because you brought it up, it never occurred before the reasons have given now.  It only arises with you and it's just logical that these questions should be asked of you, and more so that you are also their Commander.

MR LAX: And especially because Thulo was the one who raised this issue of exclusion, everyone made the assumption, incorrectly or otherwise, that there was unit working here together, it was only in the light of Thulo's evidence that these matters suddenly became clear.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I've got no specific reason for, or I can't give you a specific answer for that.

MR LAX: Please carry on, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you.
	And the same applies to the other people who were abducted, they were not worked with before, Tax and KK, they were not worked with before from Lesotho, so they were not familiar with any of the four people of your unit.  So for the same reason it doesn't make sense that Thulo is the only one who is excluded from debriefing or interrogation sessions.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well perhaps they decided from the beginning that the people that were going to handle these people were W/O Jagga and W/O Jantjie.

MR MALINDI: I was also going to say that because you were the Commander of this unit maybe we were hoping that you will shed more light on these issues.
	Can you tell us, Capt Fouche, during these incidents about the four people in question, was he aware of what you and your unit and your section were doing?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, to the best of my recollection, I think Capt Fouche was on leave at that time.  I can't recall telling him at the time, so he must have been on leave.

MR MALINDI: And in his absence while he was on leave, if he was on leave, you could take these decisions without him?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: If he was present, you would have told him.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I would have told him, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And I suppose if he was part of these incidents, then he would also feel obliged to apply for amnesty?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: He would have applied for amnesty, I'm sure, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Just while you're there, Mr Malindi.
	Did you not report to him when he came back from leave?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I would have told him, yes, I would have told him what had transpired.

MR LAX: So he would have had full knowledge of this series of incidents.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, he would have.

MR LAX: But he hasn't applied for amnesty, obviously.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: He hasn't applied for amnesty, no.

MR MALINDI: Jantjie in his application on page 11, states that the objective of recruiting Betty Boom's cell and sending them back to Lesotho, was so that you could have - they could form part of an intelligence network within the ANC.  Do you agree with that?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I can't find the place in the ...

MR LAX: It's the top of page 11, the second paragraph.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got it now.  Just let me read it please.  I've read it, thank you Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Do you agree that that was the purpose of recruiting them?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Is it not so that in the intelligence world, one informer must not know that the person sitting next to them is another informer for the same person?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Well, having the same unit as informers, does that make sense?  It sounds to me quite strange.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well in these circumstances it made sense to us to do so.

MR MALINDI: One of them could have gone to the ANC and said: "By the way, while we were away, the reason why we were away for a week or some of us for shorter than a week, it's because we were being recruited and Betty Boom was the person who put the Security Police onto us", and your unit could have been destroyed.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That could have transpired, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And as a Commander of an Intelligence Unit, I mean you should have foreseen that and not done something as, for lack of a better word, as stupid as that.  Isn't it so?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I was receiving reports from the people that were working with it and they assured me that there wasn't a risk, or there would have been a risk, but the risk was minimal that this would have happened.

MR MALINDI: But even before you took them into Lesotho, you already knew that there were suspicions around Betty, so what I'm suggesting to you is that to then try and make a whole unit to be informers was stupid and for a highly placed ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Perhaps the word "reckless" is more appropriate.  Stupid, it's a bit rude, if you don't mind me being blunt.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, I was struggling to find an appropriate word.
	Very reckless.  And for a highly placed intelligence officer like yourself, you should have foreseen that, that it would lead to problems.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It could have, as I've explained - perhaps I didn't explain myself properly, Chairperson.  Once these people had been recruited I was informed by the people that had done the debriefing and had been speaking to them, that they were satisfied that we could send these people back and that they would be trustworthy as informers and that such an incident as what is being described by the Advocate, could take place, was minimal and it was worth the risk to do so.  And we subsequently, we did exactly what I've said.

MR LAX: Can I just interpose?
	Are you seriously telling us that that consideration even entered the picture?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Which consideration?

MR LAX: The consideration that they might actually turn and that they might actually undo each other, so to speak, expose each other?  It wasn't a consideration that you realistically even thought of at the time.  It's very easy sitting here in the cold light of day, to raise these things academically.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We thought of that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may, Mr Malindi.
	Did you think of this in this context, if you have regard to page 11, the last paragraph and the top of that paragraph on page 12.  I'll give you an opportunity to look at it.