Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

MS DAMBUZA: It is my humble submission that all four of my clients do fall within the ambit of the Act, Act 34/95, in that they have all admitted to having committed a crime.  In respect of Mazizi Ntisana, he has admitted that he did take part in the planning of the coup.  In respect of the other three, Mzwamadoda Ntisana, Mxutu and Bongweni, they have also admitted that they were involved in the planning of the coup which did not take place.

CHAIRPERSON: So in your case we're just talking about the January aborted coup.

JUDGE MILLER: Except for the one.

MS DAMBUZA: Except for the one.  In respect of Mazizi Ntisana, he was involved in the coup of the 22nd of November 1990.  That is applicant number 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so does his application relate to both the abortive coup and the unsuccessful coup?

MS DAMBUZA: His application Mr Chairman, relates to the coup of the 22nd November 1990, because we do not have any evidence of his involvement in - oh I'm sorry, it is in respect of both the coup that did not take place in January and the coup of 1990, November.

CHAIRPERSON: And the actual one.

MS DAMBUZA: And the actual one that aborted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS DAMBUZA: He does admit having taken - having been involved in both instances.

CHAIRPERSON: And in respect of the other three it only relates to the January conspiracy.

MS DAMBUZA: In respect of the January  - exactly, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR SIBANYONI: May you respond to this question.  Would you say your client, Mazizi Ntisana has made a full disclosure in respect of this coup of the 22nd of November?  We hear that the soldiers were wearing some SADF uniforms, we also hear that some mortar bombs were used, but insofar as the evidence he's given us, he didn't disclose any of those details.

MS DAMBUZA: The evidence that he has given is to the effect that he was not aware that there was going to be any arms, he did not see any arms and he was of the view or believed that the coup would be bloodless.
	Mr Chairman, there is an indication that he subsequently became aware of what was said, that the South African Government was involved in aiding Col Duli.  However, my submission would be that that could only be regarded as hearsay because he did not have firsthand knowledge of that.  He has said repeatedly that Col Duli did not, apparently on hindsight, disclose everything to him.  It is my submission that in the circumstances he has disclosed all what he personally knew or what he was told by Col Duli.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, just remind me now Ms Dambuza, he testified about two legs of this operation, now just help me, is this in respect of the November coup?  He was talking about Operation Sacrifice and Operation Dawn, I'm not sure which one of the two he fitted into but I formed the impression that what he said was he was to really feature actively only in the subsequent leg of the coup, which seems to me to have more been after the actual takeover, the physical takeover of power he would come in, on the second leg of the operation.  Now do I understand this correctly or what?

MS DAMBUZA: Exactly Mr Chairman, that is exactly what Mazizi Ntisana says.  He says the first part it was going to be exclusively Col Duli and the other soldiers, he would only take part after he had received a signal from Col Duli that everything was okay and then he would then perform his part.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  He was travelling with his Lesotho people, was he?

MS DAMBUZA: He was travelling with the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On the road and then they lost contact with Mr Duli and then returned.

MS DAMBUZA: Exactly, Mr Chairman.  And therefore they could not proceed to perform what was supposed to be his part.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, thank you.  Have you got other submissions?

MS DAMBUZA: Save, Mr Chairman, to indicate that all applicants have been punished in the sense that they have served sentences, they did undergo the process of prosecution and serve sentences, and it is my submission that they sort of paid for the part they took in the coup.
	In respect of Mazizi Ntisana, he has indicated that he regrets the loss of life which eventually occurred and on behalf of him I would like to again echo this sentiment.  In respect of the other three applicants, they also served their sentences and the coup that was intended did not take place.  I think those are the only submissions I have.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, Chairperson.
	What would you say on - what would your submissions on proportionality be, they attack people who were asleep, unarmed.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, it is a bit difficult to say in the sense that the evidence of Mazizi Ntisana, applicant number 5, is that he was really not aware of what would actually take place in the stage one of the coup and therefore one is loathe to speculate on what his actions would have been if he had known the extent to which the military operation would go.  He has repeatedly said he was acting under the conviction that Col Duli and his soldiers would be able to carry this out without bloodshed or loss of life as this had happened before when they were involved in the coup of Ms Sigcau's government.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, my colleague just reminds me now, what was he convicted of?

MS DAMBUZA: He was convicted of treason.  I think ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, I think he was in the Supreme Court trial, yes.

MS DAMBUZA: He was in the Supreme Court trial.

JUDGE MILLER: He was convicted of treason, yes.

MS DAMBUZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is in respect of the November one.

MS DAMBUZA: Applicant number 5, that is in respect of the November one.

CHAIRPERSON: And in respect of the other one, was he never charged for his role in the ...

MS DAMBUZA: No, he was never charged for that particular one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE MILLER: But his involvement in the first one, according to his evidence was he didn't know what was going on because - although he did say later after that, there were some meetings.  When he actually took them to see Col Duli, he didn't know why Duli wanted to see them, but I think that after the there were a couple of meetings.

MS DAMBUZA: Yes, he became aware in subsequent meetings, but when he first told him to go and fetch them, he did tell him what he wanted them for.

JUDGE MILLER: Just one other small point, Ms Dambuza, the acts sets out three criteria, you've dealt with two, namely the political objective, I think quite clearly it was political.  The second, full disclosure.  The third is that the application itself complies with the requirements of the Act, from a technical point of view.  Now I don't know if you associate yourself with what Mr Malan put to us earlier, that these application forms were completed in the presence of somebody from the TRC, immediately before the cut-off date and that is why the actual form contains very little information.  Because normally one would expect these questions to be answered, but is it the same situation that prevails in relation to your clients, as opposed to Mr Malan's?

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, although I was not yet involved in the case at that stage, yesterday when Mr Malan clarified the situation I did confirm with my clients and they did confirm that it was indeed so and therefore I would align myself with what Mr Malan has submitted.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Dambuza, just in respect of the other three applicants of yours, other than Mr Mazizi Ntisana, what were they convicted of, what was the offence?

MS DAMBUZA: They were convicted of conspiracy to commit treason.

CHAIRPERSON: To commit treason.

MS DAMBUZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All three of them?

MS DAMBUZA: All three of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that what they're asking amnesty for?