Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Would there normally have been a report ofsuch an event?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Vuuren, under whose direct command didyou act?

ANSWER: I acted under Col Flip Loots' direct command.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know whether Thibedi was injured?

ANSWER: No I think he was injured.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you page to page 147 of the application. General motivation in respect of eliminations which evidencewas already given by Brigadier Cronje is contained herein, I'mnot going to ask the witness to repeat that evidence because BrigadierCronje gave it on behalf of all the applicants.   I will, however,refer to the further motivations and reasons for this being apolitical act which are set out on page 152.   Kindly page topage 151 and we will begin at the bottom, could you read thisto us starting from the bottom paragraph?
ANSWER:
  "All of the abovementioned led to the fact that
1. the /...
MR DU PLESSIS 247 J J VAN VUUREN
   the National Party remained in government and communism wassuccessfully countered.   The purpose of this action was to actagainst the ANC and other liberation movements with a revolutionaryonslaught against the apartheid government to destabilise andpersuade them.   The motive of the act was to counter terrorismand to protect the country.   A further motive was to eliminatethe activists so that further actions against the State and thepublic could not be perpetrated.   The context against which thishappened was against the background of an emergency situationin the country, as well as the continuing violence, intimidationsand unrest.   The liberation movements attempted to make the countryungovernable at this stage as part of their political rebellion.  The legal nature of the act and the facts of the act is apparentfrom the nature and particulars of the act, as mentioned.   Thepurpose and goal was to intimidate or eliminate an ANC activist,supporter or terrorist.   The action against Thibedi was carriedout under the instructions as mentioned above.   The purpose wasnecessary to eliminate an ANC terrorist, activist or supporterwhich was necessary in view of the struggle, and the securitysituation in the country.   Actions against activists, as faras I know, had under most circumstances been successful.   Stepstaken against activists would therefore have been successful incountering the intimidation and
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MR DU PLESSIS 248 J J VAN VUUREN
   attempts to make the country ungovernable by the ANC and otherliberation movements.   Actions against him was comparable tohis actions against innocent black people, this was a war situation."
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Curran are you interested in this aspectof the matter?

MR CURRAN: (Inaudible, no microphone).
MR DE JAGER(?):: Mr Venter(?), Colonel Loots where ishe at this moment?

ANSWER: I am Mr Van Vuuren.

<UNKNOWN>: My apologies Mr Van Vuuren, Colonel Loots wasthe unit commander of Unit B, do you know where he is presently?

ANSWER: Yes he is in this hall at this moment.

<UNKNOWN>: Is he present here?

ANSWER: Yes he is.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE(?)

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Vuuren you saw the house that you bombed,not so?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you know how many rooms were in that house?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: ...were to find Mr Thibedi, inside the housethat is?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: How many bombs all in all did you have?

ANSWER: Only one.

<UNKNOWN>: What was the ingredients of the bomb that youmanufactured?

ANSWER: I am not an explosive expert but I can attemptto
1. explain /...
MR MPSHE 249 J J VAN VUUREN
explain.   Normally such a bomb would have consisted of a coffeetin which was then filled with bentolite, this was then sealedand you would then have had a five second firing device.

<UNKNOWN>: ...it has or it will be capable of destroyingthe house completely?

ANSWER: Please repeat the question.

<UNKNOWN>: When making this bomb...

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman may I please just requestthere are headphones in which the translation will be in Afrikaans,I think the witness just forgot to put the headphones on.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: When making this bomb or manufacturing thisbomb, did you manufacture it with the intention of it being capableof destroying the house completely?

ANSWER: Yes it was intended to destroy the house.

<UNKNOWN>: ...also include the people therein?

ANSWER: Yes all of the people who at that moment wouldhave been inside the house, yes.

<UNKNOWN>: ...your main target was Mr Thibedi himselfand not the other inhabitants, your main target was Mr Thibediand not other occupants of the house?

ANSWER: This is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Before throwing the bomb did you take painsto establish exactly where Mr Thibedi was at that particular moment?

ANSWER: I can only explain, I can only explain that ourinformation had been that Mr Thibedi's, his was Mr Thibedi's safehouse and that he would have been the only person in this house,he would have been the only person hiding in
1. this /...
MR MPSHE 250 J J VAN VUUREN
this house.   I was not aware of any other persons.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Vuuren you knew that this house wasoccupied by Mr Thibedi and his family, not so?

ANSWER: No I did not know that his family was there,our information was...(end of side 1)...at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: ...the fourth paragraph, in the last sentenceyou state that
  "I was informed that while running W/O Van Vuuren lookedback..."
MR (?):: Which page is this?

ANSWER: You're at a different incident now.
MR ?:: Is this not Van Vuuren?

<UNKNOWN>: Did you see what happened to the house yourself?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: ...does it take you so long just to say "nee"?

ANSWER: I'm trying to recall the events in my mind, itwas 10 years ago, a long time has passed.   Captain Hechter threwthe bomb I stood next to him and I broke the window.

<UNKNOWN>: ...as to what happened after the bombing?

ANSWER: No we never went back, we never attempted todetermine what had happened.

<UNKNOWN>: ...Van Vuuren that after every operation thereis a report that has to be made to the order givers or to theauthorities, is it not so?

ANSWER: This is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: ...report to them as to the operation?

ANSWER: No my direct head was present at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: ...operation  have to meet as people who wereinvolved and discuss the issue as to what report is to be givento the higher authorities, if any?

ANSWER: Captain Loots was present, pardon Colonel Loots
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MR MPSHE 251 J J VAN VUUREN
was present that evening, he knew exactly what happened, I leftit at that.

<UNKNOWN>: ...thereafter at all?

ANSWER: No I also told no one else about this subsequently.

<UNKNOWN>: It was a war situation?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: ...with particular references to Thibedi'sissue?

ANSWER: The entire operation took place against the backgroundof a general state of emergency in the country.  Anarchy reignedor ruled in the country and the country was on fire, the countrywas burning.   This was the only possible and effective actionagainst trained activists and terrorists.   We could not arrestthis person since there was no appropriate evidence against thisperson, this was a people's war and struggle, no one was willingto give testimony in court because they were scared they wouldbe killed the next day.   It was a very clandestine action whichwe took to counteract the efforts of the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: This was a war situation, would you say itwas a conventional war or a non-conventional war?

ANSWER: I would say that this was non-conventional, unconventionalwarfare.

JUDGE WILSON: : Mr Van Vuuren, you have told us that youthought Mr Thibedi was in the house because his car was parkedoutside, is that so?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: How did you recognise his car?