Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

MR LAX: The only aspect that comes to my mind in this regard is, in the light of the need to now wait extra time, there is also the need therefore to be a little bit more careful because things are at a sensitive stage, you have people under observation, it's in the normal course of having anyone under observation and as an experienced Security policeman, I'm sure you know this, that you could be found out and then you've got to evaluate what your next conduct was going to be.  Anyone under observation might recognise that they're being held under observation and so
in the light of that that one would expect perhaps and maybe this is expecting too much with the benefit of hindsight and I concede that immediately, but one might expect that.  You would ask the men under your command engaged in this observation and you weren't just observing Nyanda, you probably had people observing other people, to be more careful because of the potential problems.  Is that not something one might have expected in the circumstances?

H J P BOTHA: Conceded, Chairperson.  It would be so.

MR LAX: Now, just one tiny detail, it's not that relevant but it just surprised me.  when you left the scene of the shooting it would appear that you took the branches that you'd used to clean up the place with you.  Is that right?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

MR LAX: Why didn't you just throw them in the river?

H J P BOTHA: For the same reason which I took them with me, I don't know.  Everything that we used to clean up we wanted to take with us, that's why we had the black bag.

MR LAX: Surely wiping the blood on the ground with branches would simply have spread it further, it wouldn't have covered it up.

H J P BOTHA: No, Chairperson, there was not much blood.  From the head wounds there is not so much blood that flows and in my opinion I just wanted to clear up the scene knowing that if an angler would come past, he would not suspect anything.  It was an impulsive action by taking the branches and putting them into the black bags and taking them along and burning them.

MR LAX: Just one last aspect, it must have been very frustrating and demoralising for you to find out that this whole operation was just a total waste of energy in the sense that your senior officers and the politicians had decided they weren't going to take any action in the matter, any real action.

H J P BOTHA: Seen in the light of the individuals who were involved, yes it was frustrating because one would believe that here is an opportunity where the government could maintain it's supremacy with an arrest and a charging and a prosecution of these people and then this whole operation could be exposed and the whole world, but that was not to be.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Botha, when was the last opportunity that you mentioned the name of Ndaba with Gen Steyn?

H J P BOTHA: I think it was the 14th.

ADV BOSMAN: So it was shortly before he was eliminated?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: I just wanted clarity about that, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that you very much.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there is one matter that arose from Commissioner Lax's questions which I beg leave just to deal with very briefly, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Hypothesis Mr Botha, so you cannot recall but let's say that you told Wasserman and du Preez no further arrests before the 16th and their surveillance of the person whom they observed was blown and they are found out, what would you have expected them to do?

H J P BOTHA: Under the circumstances in which Mr Ndaba was indeed arrested, to arrest him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyanda or Mr Ndaba?

MR VISSER: Mr Nyanda, Mr Chairman.  Did I say Ndaba?  I'm terribly sorry, no Mr Nyanda.  That's the only issue Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, may I ask whether this witness might be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR VISSER: Thank you , Mr chairman, he will be back in the week when we do the Gordhan and Lalla matter.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused from further attendance.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED