Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MR DREYER: Which indicated that this instruction or further instruction came from higher up and this instruction would be that there is going to be a revolution that is going to be shooting and that this firearm that you have in your possession, you are going to fire with this?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I had nothing of that nature.

MR MALAN: Mr Dreyer, I am sorry to interrupt you.  All the questions you have asked to the witness is completely in accordance with his evidence.  I cannot say that I heard that he incriminated your client, and I think he confirmed your line of questioning.  Is it necessary for you to continue with your cross-examination considering the fact that it is Friday?

MR DREYER: As it pleases the Committee, Mr Chairman, I just wanted to put the basis and put the final statement to him.  As it pleases you.
	Then I ask you the same question I asked the other applicants.  After you got the instruction from Visser at the road block, did you believe that it was coming from Kloppers as the Commanding Officer in that group?  Did you question it any further?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did not question it.

MR DREYER: Did you think that you have to determine first whether there was a higher instruction or did you only act in accordance with that instruction?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I only acted according to that instruction.

MR DREYER: As it pleases the Commission.

MR DREYER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  As I understood your evidence, questions were asked at the road block of the occupants of the various cars as to their political affiliation?

MR KNOETZE: That is not correct.

MR BRINK: Is that not correct?  Correct me if I am wrong, what was the situation, you said questions were not asked?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Chairperson, the first few vehicles which were pulled off, no questions were put to them with regard to their political affiliation, only the last two vehicles.

MR BRINK: Yes, I am talking about the occupants of the Toyota Cressida and the Honda.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is right they were asked to which political affiliation they belonged.

MR BRINK: And did they give any answer?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: They gave no answers Chairperson.

MR BRINK: Can you remind me, who asked those questions?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Commandant Deon Martin asked them the questions.

MR BRINK: How far away were you from him when he asked those questions, can you remember?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I could clearly hear the questions when he asked them.

MR BRINK: Because you were close enough to him to hear it?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: And had there been any answers, you would have heard that as well because you were close to the people being questioned?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, I would have heard.

MR BRINK: And you heard nothing?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, I heard nothing.

MR BRINK: Is it not the position that the occupants of these two vehicles were told that they were ANC members, which they denied?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: They were told you are members of the ANC, that is right.

MR BRINK: That was said to them?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is right.

MR BRINK: Thank you very much.

MR MALAN: Mr Van der Schyff, I would like to ask you with regards to the evidence of the other applicants, they say that they tried to protect Gen Oelofse, that was the whole approach of the whole group who took part in this incident.  On what basis  can we accept that you are not still trying to protect Gen Oelofse?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Chairperson, I am in front of this Commission, I am not here to protect anyone, I am only here to speak the truth.  This is what this Commission is concerned with, to hear the whole truth of what happened in this country in the Apartheid regime.

MR MALAN: In your opinion, you have no knowledge of any stage when you were told that Kloppers received his instructions from Oelofse?  At no stage, not even afterwards?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, never.

MR MALAN: Can you tell me why do you think you were called together at the road house to meet there, and let's say not at Visser's flat or Martin's house where you went any way afterwards, why the road house?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was a usual meeting place for AWB members.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Van der Schyff, was it a general thing for the AWB to handle their weapons in public?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Chairperson, the AWB walked around in public with their weapons, they never tried to hide them.

MR MALAN: Adv Bosman, there was one other question I wanted to ask.  The visits which were paid at the prison by Oelofse and Terreblanche, these visits, were they specific visits to the applicants or was it more a general series of visits?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: While I was still a member of the AWB, Eugene Terreblanche and Gen Japie Oelofse visited the prisons all over South Africa, in the prisons where AWB members were detained.

MR MALAN: I just want to make sure sir that we do not misunderstand that.  So these visits were specifically aimed at the applicants themselves?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, they visited all the AWB members in prisons.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Van der Schyff, if I understand your evidence correctly, you said that the people in the first vehicles that is now the vehicles with the exception of the Cressida and the Honda, that these people were not questioned?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: They were not questioned at all.

ADV BOSMAN: At the stage when they were searched, where was Mr Martin and Kloppers?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I cannot tell you exactly where Kloppers and Martin were.

ADV BOSMAN: Is it possible that you could maybe not have heard Kloppers and Martin?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is possible.

ADV BOSMAN: Then you also testified that you don't have any problems with the other applicants, except for Kloppers, Martin and Meiring.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: You agree with me that you testified which was not really to the benefit of the other applicants.  What did you mean then when you said you had no problems with them, do you mean on a personal level or do you mean with regards to the evidence, can you just clarify that, it is confusing me?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Chairperson, I have no problem with them as friends.  It is each one for himself within this Commission, each one must come and tell his own story.

ADV BOSMAN: How recent have you communicated with the other applicants, except for Martin, Kloppers and Meiring?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The first time that we appeared before the Commission, was also the first time that I saw Martin and Kloppers and the other applicants as well.

ADV BOSMAN: And the other applicants also?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, Visser I saw while I was detained in Johannesburg.

ADV BOSMAN: Were they aware of the fact that you were going to amend your statement?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, I do not know if they were aware of that.

ADV BOSMAN: You didn't discuss it with them?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did not discuss it with them.  I left that for my legal representatives.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Van der Schyff, I just want to clarify one point here, you were asked by Ms Van der Walt why did you shoot the black people and I was listening to the English interpretation, you answer was I shot the black people because I saw the ANC as an enemy, do you remember that?