Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-08

MS MTANGA: You now, Mr Mahlakaone, the position of the evidence of the two policemen who were there is that one of you, one of your members, approached Mr Mbata and asked for water for their vehicle saying that they had a problem with the vehicle overheating.  What I want to know, if the intention was to hold up Mr Mbata, why was it not done if the intention was to really hold him up, why was it not done at that point when they spoke to him because he was alone at the charge office?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: So after the sum up of everything, the late Comrade Solly, if he did ask some water, unfortunately that was not the order as such.  Maybe it was his initiative in order to get the person in the right place at the right corner but the fact was that he must hold him up so that I came in, we drove the person to the weapon safe.  That was the only orders that I gave them.

MS MTANGA: Another aspect that the two policemen would like to raise with you is that they had Mr Mbata who was at the charge office and the two of them, that is Mr Maonye and Mr Malopi were sleeping and they both had no weapons with them and now they have a problem understanding your evidence that there was a shooting from their side because they believe that when Mr Mbata left to attend to this one person who needed water, somebody fired shots at him and then they heard the shots being fired at Mr Mbata.  What do you say to this?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: As I've said before that even if that person is firing from a very far point, the way I've been trying - that's why I realised that the weapons that they've used is a pistol.  A pistol and a machine gun, the sound is not the same.  I hear exactly that this is a pistol, it's not a machine gun.  If it was my member who shot first, actually I think I've heard it the right way but I heard this is a pistol that is shooting.  So fortunately now I said no, we don't have any pistol in our possession.

MS MTANGA: Did he get the weapons that you went to rob?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: We didn't.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Have the panel any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes just a few here.
	Mr Mahlakaone, whose vehicle was this?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: The vehicle that was used it was a hired vehicle from some other agency in Johannesburg.

ADV SANDI: Did you take that vehicle back to the agency?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: Yes I did take that vehicle back.

ADV SANDI: Were you expecting this gentleman at the gate to be the one who would be keeping the keys for the safe?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: With my information he's the person who got everything while he is on duty in the charge office whatsoever.

ADV SANDI: Where did you get that information?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: It is from my sources because I was engaged really in the war of brains where I have to infiltrate to each and every corner, that was my task so in order to do the right thing at the right place I have to get proper information.

ADV SANDI: Your reconnaissance, how did you go about conducting this reconnaissance?  Did you personally go to the police station to inspect what the situation was there?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: Yes, I did go personally because people in the area they know me as a journalist probably.  Actually they know me as a journalist, that is why I managed to go in because I did have all the relevant documents.

ADV SANDI: Were you in fact a journalist?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: I was not, it was my cover story.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

ADV SIBANYONI: Mr Mahlakaone, you said you reported to the late Comrade Chris Hani.  Was he in the country or did you leave the country first before you gave the reports?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: No, I was in the country.

ADV SIBANYONI: In Johannesburg?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: Yes.

ADV SIBANYONI: Then again, this operation, the attack on the police station, it was an initiative of your own unit or was it an order from the above structures?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: It was an order plus my initiatives.

ADV SIBANYONI: Can you explain that?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: Yes, because one, the police station at Ntwengeni was not part of the mission that was stipulated but due to the fact that there was - Ntwengeni ended up being part of the place that is implicated to what we are looking for.  That is why I decided to go to it because while I was looking for a - there was a member who was a member of the askaris and he defected from the ANC.  They were using the place as part of the place where they put their weapons.  So in order to get them right I decided that the weapons must be taken away from that police station.

ADV SIBANYONI: Otherwise the main aim of establishing units in the Eastern Transvaal, what was then the Eastern Transvaal, what was the purpose?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: The purpose was that I have to establish units so that if - because the area of Eastern Transvaal itself was the most problematic area because it's on the front line, so that we have to gear up ourselves, units must be always ready if there's any problem in the region.

ADV SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Koopedi, any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Just one area, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, go ahead?

MR KOOPEDI: When you went to this police station, where did you get off the car?  I mean did you get off the car at the gate or at some place?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: Okay, when we - I get off the car not on the gate because the police station was on the outskirts of that place of Ntwengeni so at the back opposite us just a main road.  So I get off at the main road, I directed the other members to go straight to the gate because I give them orders, I showed them on the sketch where I have to park the vehicle.

MR KOOPEDI: And where were they to park the vehicle?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: They were supposed to park the vehicle in front of the gate so that when we managed to take the weapons it must be easier for us to put them in the vehicle and we go away.

MR KOOPEDI: And after getting off the vehicle, did you say you jumped a fence into the police station?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when Solly or one of your guys went inside and allegedly asked for water, were you anywhere near them?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: I was not near them, I was at the back of the building, at the back side of the building because I was moving along the wall.

MR KOOPEDI: And that is why you would not know whether or not they asked for water and why you won't know why he wasn't held up at that stage?

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: No further questions, thanks Chairperson.

RATSON NIKI MAHLAKAONE: Thank you Mr Koopedi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Mahlakaone.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, we have no further evidence to tender and that's the case for the application, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Ms Mtanga, any evidence?

MS MTANGA: No evidence, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Koopedi, have you got submissions on the merits of the application?