Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

CHAIRPERSON: Well you must be wrong.  Well that's precisely the point that the witness was coming to testify.  You remember I asked the previous witness - amongst the all of them, the whole group that committed this crime whether besides Sam Siema there was any other Sam.  Mr Thandakubona said there wasn't any other Sam and then for a moment we thought that, looking at the summary of facts, Sam could possibly - one could possibly say Sam was Mr Mphoreng and that's why he came in to say that Sam is not his name.  So the only Sam being incriminated here, because there is a Sam incriminated in the indictment, are you aware of that?  Paragraph 6, page 33 if your bundle is paginated.  You see paragraph 6?

MR AMEEN: Yes, the 4th line of paragraph 6.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it says:  "Pitso, Sam, Kabelo and Glen took this people and then went to go and shoot them".  On the evidence before us who is Sam?

MR AMEEN: On the evidence before us it is only comrade Sam Siema.

CHAIRPERSON: That's right.
	So it would mean that - I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, we have made no findings as yet, it will mean that we will have to treat with caution you argument or you suggestion that Sam Siema is only being incriminated now.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman would Mr Brink be able to help us in that respect whether Sam was actually - who the reference is to Sam there in terms of ... (intervention)

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman the papers I have are exactly the same but I noticed that as well and I've overscored in yellow this question of Sam being possibly Atasios Mphoreng, the second applicant in this matter but I can only going by the evidence being led and it appears clearly the Sam who was involved in this matter was not one of the applicants.

MR MALAN: May I just ask of Mr Ameen?

MR AMEEN: On page 1 of - on page 32, paragraph 1 there is a reference to Sam in the 7th line, Sam, Atasios Mphoreng.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I've been talking about.  You remember when I referred to rules of grammar a short while ago well I was referring precisely to this.

MR AMEEN: But using that Mr Chairman, with respect, then that reference to Sam in here and in the summary of facts would be to Mr Mphoreng?

CHAIRPERSON: But that's the whole point, I called him in, that's why I brought him in and he says it's not him.  And another thing is if you say that - look at the very sentence you're looking at, would you have put a comma there after Sam?

MR AMEEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Ordinarily I mean.

MR AMEEN: Ordinarily no, I wouldn't have.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just raising that because we are talking construction here, constructing a sentence.  I mean in terms of strict rules of grammar you wouldn't say Sam, and then bracket because once you say that I could just as well ask you why then why can't Atasios Mphoreng not be the next person, (indistinct) why can't he be?  Once you disregard that, the basic rule of grammar, the significance of that comma, once you disregard that then I can just as well as you why don't you disregard it at the end of the second bracket.  I mean you can't pick and choose the construction you want to have.

ADV BOSMAN: By the same argument of course one could ask the question, I'm just sort of throwing this out, one could ask the question but then why, by the rules of grammar, are there brackets around Atasios Mphoreng, so it does present some difficulty but if one goes on reading then within the context it would appear as though the brackets are the error.

MR MALAN: Chair if - I don't think this will take us much further but clearly in the mind of whoever drafted these summary of facts, Sam and Mphoreng was the same man, comma or no comma because Mphoreng's name does not appear anywhere else in the summary of facts.  But if I may ask Mr Ameen ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No it does.

MR MALAN: Where does it appear again in that paragraph?

CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible)

MR MALAN: Yes that's right, he refers to but the reference to those people involved are in the first paragraph at that stage and Mphoreng gave evidence that he was involved, but all I'm arguing is we need to sort that out in our own good time we won't take it further from the intention of the drafter here what really was said there.

CHAIRPERSON: In case people did not appreciate why I called in this witness, I called this witness to place the evidence on record that he is not Sam, and he has said he is not Sam and we are not about to call him Sam when he says he is not Sam so if - I'm going back again in case anybody missed the significance of that please say so.  If need be we should call back the witness.

MR AMEEN: I think let's call back the witness and ask him exactly what the situation is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because if you don't put questions to him and he comes in the witness box and he says I am not Sam then we can't just say well you are Sam.  Well did you want to put questions to him in that regard?

MR AMEEN: In that regard ... (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes please, unless you intend to call the Attorney General who drafted this thing?

MR MALAN: Chairman may I just ask Mr Ameen when the statement was put to the witness yesterday about the convenience of the death of Sam and Tamee, was it put to them that the victims will give evidence that these two people weren't involved at all at any stage, or was it put to them that they did not give orders at all.  Can you just clarify that to us?

MR AMEEN: The victims are not certain about the identities of Sam and Tamee right, and the way I intended it was that these two were dead and that has been confirmed to me by Mr Tloubatla, that comrade Sam and comrade Tamee are deceased and what I was saying to the witness was that he was using them, because they were deceased, to say that these two were the ones that had given us orders to kill when there were other people, other leaders who could have given orders.

MR MALAN: They are not saying that these two people weren't involved at any stage?

MR AMEEN: No they do say that they are involved, yes I am aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Then there's not problem I think, then there's no problem.  Then it is almost common cause that the Sam and Tamee were also involved in the killing of the people.  If it's not common cause, at least your clients don't dispute it.

MR AMEEN: To put it crudely or to put it commonly what I was saying to them was that they were passing the buck onto people who had died.

CHAIRPERSON: But your point will stand whether or not this is Sam or not.  In that case your point will stand whether Sam Siema is the only Sam or not.  So in that case do you still want to put questions?

MR AMEEN: There's no reason for that no.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR AMEEN: Simon Morris Mr Chairman.

SIMON MORRIS: (sworn states)

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Simon on the 1st of August 1986 you were a scholar ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute.  For the record, Mr Ameen for
the victim Mr Morris.  Yes Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Morris on the 1st of August 1986 you were a pupil at Madweleni (?) High School in Orlando West?

SIMON MORRIS: I was a pupil at Madweleni High School doing Standard 10 in 1986.

MR AMEEN: And on that particular day school was disrupted at round about nine or ten in the morning?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes there were disruptions, particularly in our school because soldiers came to assembly and then they dismissed us to go home.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Ameen.  Mr Morris what language are you going to give your evidence in?

SIMON MORRIS: I'll prefer English.

ADV SIGODI: English, okay.

MR AMEEN: The other five victims, the survivor, Mr Sekano and the four deceased, were they attending the same school with you?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes correctly because Mr Sekano Kgase was doing Standard 6 at that time and the other four ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: Just confine yourself to ... (intervention)

SIMON MORRIS: Okay.