Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: The persons who normally gave instructions were people who were working with those things, more specially, Mr Ramaligela, who is also Mr Managa, they are the people who were seriously involved in this issue.  And others who used to believe in that those people should be beaten up.  And then it was just referred to while we were at work that those people who are against the government must be assaulted.

MR VAN RENSBURG: These people that you have named just now, were they of equal rank to yourself or of higher rank?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: They were of higher rank and I was their junior.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, Mr Netshivale, Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa who you've just made reference to, are they applicants number three and four in this application at this hearing?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Do you understand the question, Mr Netshivale?  The question is are you referring to applicants number two and three in this hearing.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now General Ramushwana testified that at the time, there was an investigation or an interrogation team selected to investigate the bombings.  The question is were you part of that investigation team?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, I was not part of the investigating team.  I was just called upon to give a little help.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Perhaps we should now turn to more specific instances.  Can you tell this hearing specifically who the persons are who you assaulted or were present when they were assaulted?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: It's Mr Chikororo, Phoshwana, Phosiwa ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Won't you be slow, we are trying to take down what you are saying.  You've indicated that you participated in the assault of Mr Chikororo.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, who else?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Phosiwa, Phoshwana and Mahumela.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Anyone else?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: In connection with?  With incidents at Sibasa or any other thing?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Only in connection with the incident after the Sibasa bombing.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Those are the only people I can still remember.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now starting with Mr Chikororo, can you tell us where did you find him and what did you do to him?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: ...(indistinct) Mr Chikororo, he was arrested and he was brought to the office which is referred to as 'Vembe' by them.  And there he was interrogated about the bombing of Sibasa police station and he was refusing, saying that he knows nothing, he was beaten and I also participated by using my clubs.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon, by using what?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Slapping.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You slapped him with open hands?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Sometimes we used bare hands and because they were not beaten by myself alone, they were also beaten by electric shocks.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And what else?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: And watered bag covering their head.

CHAIRPERSON: I think at this moment, Mr Netshivale, we're talking just about Mr Chikororo, you're saying 'they were beaten,' just confine yourself to Mr Chikororo and the question put to you by Mr Van Rensburg is what did you yourself do to Mr Chikororo?  You said you hit him with your open hand, was there anything else you did?  And then perhaps the next question will be asked is 'Did anybody else do something to him in your presence?'  But just at this stage tell us what you personally did to Mr Chikororo.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: There is nothing which I did except helping him be beaten.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In what way did you assist?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: ...(no English interpretation)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you not at any stage slap him with an open hand?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I've already explained that I slapped him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, your evidence was a little confusing because it seemed to suggest that what you were explaining, you are also explaining the participation of other people.  Did you use electric shocks on Mr Chikororo?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, I didn't use those.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, you actually slapped him?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I only slapped him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How many times?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can't remember offhand but I know very well that I did slap him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On one occasion?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, it happened a long time ago, I can't remember offhand now.  I only remember that I slapped him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you personally participate in assisting anyone to use the water bad method of torture?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I was merely participating in helping or assisting.

SISI KHAMPEPE: By holding him down?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Just to hold him so that they shouldn't run away or should not lose whatever had tightened them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Netshivale, I'm still asking questions about how you assaulted Mr Chikororo only.  Did you assault Mr Chikororo in any way else except to slap him with open hands?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: There was no other means that I used in assaulting Mr Chikororo.

MR VAN RENSBURG: If we can now turn to the interrogation of Mr Phosiwa, can you tell us what your part in the interrogation was?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, regarding Mr Phosiwa, I did the same as I mentioned earlier?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Only slapping him with open hands?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.  I only slapped him in a similar manner.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you ever present when Mr Phosiwa was assaulted by other means, by other persons?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Please tell us about that.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, the same methods were used, the bag full of water and electrification method.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you tell us in more specifics how he was electrically shocked?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: There was equipment which I can really relate to now because I wasn't personally - directly involved in using it.  What used to happen was that they will attach it to the earlobes and it will be put around, sort of like there will be a winding system.  That's all about it, regarding electrification or electric shock.  Well, regarding the water bag, it was about putting a small bag in water, putting it around the head so that he shouldn't breathe well.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, did you ever see the electrodes during the shock treatment being attached to any other part of Mr Phosiwa's body except his ears?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, what I can remember, it's only on the earlobes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And what were you doing whilst the other persons were busy giving him, that is Mr Phosiwa, these electric shocks?  What was your involvement in that?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I was personally involved in helping out, just to hold so that they could not get lose, especially the equipment.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, and what was your personal involvement whilst the wet bag was used on Mr Phosiwa?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Regarding Mr Phosiwa, it was just a similar method, the bag was put around his head and there was a time he will be released, sometimes I was just watching with other  people.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, and during these assaults on Mr Phosiwa and the interrogation whilst you were present, where did you slap him with open hands on his body?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can just remember that it was on the face and even on the back.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And it happened on only one occasion or several different occasions?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, on several occasions.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And did it last over a period of days or several occasions on the same day?