Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

MR PANDAY: Is it correct that Lucky Ntshetha was one of the accused in your criminal matter?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now, you mentioned that Lucky Ntshetha was in charge.  What position did he hold in the ANC?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He was a person whom we would forward our grievances or complaints to.

MR PANDAY: Sorry you mentioned you would forward your grievances and complaints to?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Lucky Ntshetha.  Lucky Ntshetha.

MR MALAN: Sorry, if I understand you correctly, are you saying that you put your complaints to Lucky?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: The question, Mr Dlamini, that Mr Panday put to you was, did Lucky hold a position in the ANC structures?  Do you know?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He did not hold any position but he was a person who was appointed by us to be in charge in the area.

MR PANDAY: So is it correct that when there was a problem you saw him as leader?

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you qualify what kind of a problem you are referring to so that he can be more precise in his response?

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, if you all had a problem in the area, if someone was fighting with the people in the area, is it correct that you all would then complain to Lucky?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: And is it also correct that Lucky would then decide what has to be done with any problems in the area?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he would take a decision.

MR PANDAY: Did any of Lucky's - did you personally have to follow any of Lucky's decisions or orders that were taken?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Can you tell us, Mr Dlamini, why you had to follow orders and decisions of Lucky?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The reason for that, it's solely because everything that we did, we did it under his authority.  Most of the mistakes, he would - the one who would solve the problems of the community.

MR MALAN: If you talk about the community, are you talking about the 16 people who lived together, or what community are you talking about?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, those people who were residing with us in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, are you referring to the 16 people?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I'm referring to those 16 people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, we're going to go back to now 1992 when you, together with four others, were charged for the murder of a person.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose before you proceed to 1992?  We feel it is important for us to be fully informed about how the applicant saw Mr Ntshetha as a leader and for him to tell us when he elected him, or appointed him as his leader.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When did you appoint Mr Ntshetha as your leader?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: ...(indistinct) Ntshetha was appointed on the day when the violence erupted when the IFP people came who wanted to force us to join IFP and the youth from the area ran away to a place that was an airport where we were staying.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when I say when, I want you to give me an indication with regard to a year and if possible, the month.  When was it, was it in 1980, 1990, 19 -  what year are we talking about?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That took place in 1990 on the 2nd of February.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed Mr Panday.

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Panday I am - from the record it seems that the applicant is illiterate Mr Panday, is that so?

MR PANDAY: Yes.

MR MALAN: Then I just want to put it to you, Mr Dlamini that we have a statement taken from Mr Ntshetha, from Lucky, in which he says that he moved to the airport area and it seems, if we look at the chronology of his statement, shortly before the incident and that you and others had already been living at that airport shacks, he joined you and he met you there.  Is that correct, that you were living already in that area when Lucky arrived there?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Now when did Lucky arrive?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He arrived in 1990.

MR MALAN: How do you know it was 1990?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is the time when we arrived at the place and when he came he found us there, we had been staying there for a short while, three weeks if I'm not mistaken, we had been staying there.

MR MALAN: Now who was the leader before he arrived?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We were working with a person called Basil.

MR MALAN: Can we just get that name again?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We were working with a person called Basil.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Panday, you may proceed.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini just to confirm, clarify, you say you were working for a person called Basil, was Basil in charge of the 16 people, or did you just work for Basil?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Basil was not a leader, he was just a brave person, we were working with him because he was brave and we were discussing as what to do when a problem comes, therefore we would try and solve problems, me and him, the two of us.

ADV DE JAGER: This Basil, was he a co-accused with you in this trial?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he is one of the accused.

ADV DE JAGER: Was his name Basil Ngwenye?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Was Basil also an ANC supporter?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Panday, all 16 of them were ANC supporters.  You may now move into the main incident.  I actually interrupted you when you were now taking the applicant into the incident itself.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, we're now going to go back to 1992, where you, together with 4 others, were involved in the murder of a person.  Now Mr Dlamini, I want for you to explain to the Commission how you became involved and partook in the murder of that person.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Mr Ntshetha was in his room in the morning.  He came to my room and he said to me:  "Moses, there's a person who is just next to my door with a firearm and I want you to go there with me."  I woke up and I called upon the others and we left to the place, all of us.  We saw this person and I pointed him with a gun and I told him to put whatever, what was in his hand down.  He did so and we took him with, we investigated him and we wanted to know where he came from and he told us.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, let's go back step by step now.  First we had Lucky come to you and say to you that there is a person by his room with a gun, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Thereafter, you rounded up the others and you all went to approach this person, who came to attack Mr Lucky, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Mr Panday, did he give evidence that this person was to attack him?  Was his evidence not simply that there was a person?

MR PANDAY: I apologise, Mr Chairman.  Mr Dlamini, did Lucky tell you what this person came to his room for?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he told us everything before going to that place.

MR PANDAY: What is it that Lucky did tell you?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He said he had seen a person in front of his door with a firearm and then he tried to use a back door.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, you thereafter mentioned that you had approached this person and pointed a firearm at him.  Who pointed the firearm?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Myself, I pointed him with a firearm.

MR PANDAY: And when you pointed the firearm at him, what did he do?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I did that and I made him to put his firearm down.  Ntshetha is the one who picked up his firearm and we drove him to the place where I was staying.  We drove him to my room.

MR MALAN: Sorry, before you proceed with this, when you - where did you find this person?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We found him sitting under a tree, that is where we found him.  He was no longer at the door or in front of the door.

MR MALAN: Where was this tree?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was next to Sinangwenye's house.

MR MALAN: Is that next to Basil's parents' home?  Which Ngwenye are you talking about?