Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Indeed I went and then I told my boys that in the evening we're going back to the Sgangi and whether we find him or not Thulani must die, no matter what and indeed I arrived with Bhani, Sipiwe, Gita and Gnovele and Zekele Langa Skoto, with Begetsinebe.  When we arrived at his place, when we arrived at Thulani's place and the others - when we arrived at Thulani's place I knocked as usual, I'm the one who usually knocked, the others were already surrounding the house and Thulani actually answered ...[indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, I see it's ten to eleven, I see that somebody in the audience is in great distress, it might be appropriate now to take the tea adjournment and if we could start again at let's say quarter past eleven?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the tea adjournment now and we'll start again at quarter past eleven.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before the tea adjournment Mr Hlongwane was relating that he together with other persons went to Thulani Hlongwane's place and the others surrounded the house and he knocked on the door.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee.
	Can you continue with your story Mr Hlongwane?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Before I continue I will request from the Committee and the community that I know how bad are actions were but my intention of being here is that the community of Mpumalanga should know the truth as it was.  I know that I'm also going to mention other events, I ask of them to listen to me until I finish.  Thank you.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Hlongwane.  You were at the stage where you knocked on the door of Thulani Hlongwane's house, can you continue from there please?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I knocked on the front door, nobody opened.  I knocked on the back door, nobody answered.  If I'm not mistaken I think that's when we first started throwing stones at the bedroom window and Thulani emerged from the house.  He used the back door and he had a bush knife or a big knife with him and he was swinging this knife.  Bhani grabbed him from the back, that was when Sipiwe stabbed him.  He was stabbing him at the back of the house and they dragged him towards the steps and that's where he died.  Thereafter I and these other guys went to Las Vegas and I related the story to Mr Zekele Nkethle and he was pleased.

MR WILLS: Yes, now again your evidence is to the effect that you yourself didn't personally stab Thulani?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: But at the same time it was your intention that Thulani should be killed, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And your purpose of going to the Hlongwane's residence that evening was to kill one of the family members, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And as I understand your evidence that was so that the person you were looking for, that's Sgangi, would come home to attend a night vigil and that would be an opportunity to attack him, he was your real target.  Is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And as I understand your evidence that this plan was actually hatched by Zekele Nkethle, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes, Zekele planned it and it came down to me and I took it to the rest of the team.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Wills just before you proceed, how would you or how would anybody spell Skane or Sgangi?

MR WILLS: It's S-q-a-n-g-i.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I don't think so - it's S-g-a-n-g-i.

MR WILLS: I stand corrected, thank you.   Now the attack on the Hlongwane family did not end there did it?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: In fact you were involved with the further murder of a member of the Hlongwane - that same Hlongwane family, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that is the incident you refer to in 20.4 of your affidavit, that's the death of Thulani Hlongwane's younger brother?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us why or what the purpose was of this incident?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: The person I knew really well from the Hlongwane family was Sgangi.  Bangi pointed him out to me that he was Thulani's brother.  It was myself, Bhani, Sipiwe, Beki, Sulwane, Kabani, Ndo, Wana Siswane and others.  He was approaching us and he tried to run away.  We chased him ...[intervention]

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, who was approaching you?  You must remember to give us the names of these people so that there's no confusion.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Thulani's brother, Thulani Hlongwane's brother.

MR WILLS: You don't know this persons name still to this day?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No I do not.  I never got to know of it.

MR WILLS: Now you haven't answered my earlier question.  I to know why you decided to kill Thulani Hlongwane's younger brother?  You haven't told us.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Sgani's brother was a brother to somebody who was in fact an enemy therefore he was also part of the UDF.  He was a member of the UDF.

MR WILLS: Okay, carry on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Wills?  Are you saying that you killed Hlongwane's younger brother because he was Sgangi's brother or was it because he was a member of the UDF?  Which of the two, I just need clarification.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It's both, he was a UDF member and he was also Sgangi's brother.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed.

MR WILLS: This incident occurred after the incidents you referred to earlier where Thulani Hlongwane was killed, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Shortly thereafter.

MR WILLS: Now why did you decide to conduct another attack on the Hlongwane family?  Was there no other reason other than they were a UDF family?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That was the reason and also because Sgangi also terrorised Inkatha, those were the reasons.

MR WILLS: Okay, continue and tell us how the attack occurred?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: When he saw us he tried to run away, we chased him and they caught up with him.  I don't quite remember whether Nuga Koneni was actually the one who caught him.  I think it was him.  The others then arrived and then he started crying and we stabbed him.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hlongwane this person you have described as Thulani's younger brother, how old was he, could you give an approximation of his age?  Was he a young boy or a young man?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Thulani was the eldest and then there was Sgangi but this one was younger than Sgangi but I don't know what his age was.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a boy in short pants or was he a young adult, was he twelve years old, eight years old?  How old would you guess he was?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: He must have been younger than thirteen years, he was not fifteen years old as yet.

MR WILLS: Now again, you were with a group of people when this incident occurred is that right?  The group of people that you operated with?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you recall if you stabbed this person?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I don't remember.

MR WILLS: But it's possible that you might have been involved in the actual stabbing?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is possible.

MR WILLS: And you know that this person died?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I know he did die.

MR WILLS: And did you tell anybody about this incident?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I did tell someone because we did this in broad daylight and the police arrived and spoke to Zekele.  When I arrived at his house they had already been to his house to tell him.

MR WILLS: Who is they - the police?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes the police had already gone to Zekele, Steenkamp and Van Vuuren to report of this incident, so when I arrived to give him the report back he was already pleased because he had the information already and no one was arrested or prosecuted for this.