Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-02

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane we're ready for you.

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman this is the application in respect of Victor Wanda Muchacho Mabaso or Ngoma Zulu.  His application is contained on page 29 of the bundle Mr Chair.  Pages 29 until 35.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, it would appear that most of the names are very similarly pronounced or spelled.  I think for purposes of certainty, if you would be kind enough to mention the identity numbers of the applicants when they do come to give evidence.  Yesterday's applicant was Mbatha.  Have you got his ID number?

MR SHANE: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: And this one?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, maybe while we're waiting, just for your information sir, in the supplement, additional supplement, supplement two, there appears further particulars, as well as copies of the correspondence, as well as the answers to that from the applicant in this instance, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Which booklet is supplement to the blue one?  Does it read application supplement on supplement one?  The white one, supplement to.

MR SHANE: Page 58 to 66 Mr Chairman.  58 till 66.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Shane.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson this persons's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, your ...(intervention)

MR SHANE: I repeat the identity number
760210 0210 6333 087.  Applicant advises me that in fact his age is wrongly reflected by this, he was actually born in 1974, but this is his identity number.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose for identity purposes he's stuck with that.  Mr Mabaso, what language would you prefer to use?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: No.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, the application by the applicant is in respect of two murders, the victims being Stephen Radebe, the same victim in respect of yesterday's applicant Beki Khanyile, and Stephen Radebe.  Also, Mr Chairman, although not mentioned in his application, he also applies for amnesty for the unlawful possession of weapons and ammunition.  Quite clearly his possession of weapons and ammunition is mentioned in his application, and it was an oversight ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where was that, that he mentions the possession?

MR SHANE: All I'm saying, he shoots with, sir when he shoots people he obviously possessed weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it in respect of those weapons used in the murder for which he applies?

MR SHANE: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Fine.

MR SHANE: Also sir, when he patrolled as well, weapons were possessed, but these are not gross human rights violations, they ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But like I said, where there's a hearable matter we might as well deal with the lot.  How many counts of unlawful possession of firearms is he applying for?

MR SHANE: Sir, it would be a general possession over a period of time.  There was, he was in possession of weapons on several days, but he possessed weapons when these ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, the law as I understand it, would compel any criminal charge in respect of such possession.  One is the unlawful possession of X number of firearms during the period so and so, and so and so, and second the unlawful possession of ammunition, so many rounds, whatever, during the period so and so, and so and so.  I'm not going to be too sticky about that, but as you well know, the generality of offences is something that doesn't fall within our ambit, rightly or wrongly.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, from statements of the applicant, and from my instructions, he possessed weapons over a period time.  He cannot remember exactly how many different weapons he possessed, or the amounts of ammunition he possessed.  There were times when he was handed weapons by other members of the SDU, for that period time he possessed, he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, it is going to be pointless explaining ...(inaudible).  Would it not be prudent for the purposes of the application then, to restrict the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition to the incidents which have been identified and for which he actually applies for amnesty?

MR SHANE: Yes sir, it would be, and we will restrict it to those acts.
	Mr Mabaso, you are also known as Muchacho, is that correct?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: That is correct.

MR SHANE: And you were in fact the commander of the Self-Defence Unit at Tokoza.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: That is correct.

MR SHANE: You, as the commander you gave orders to other members and they carried out your orders.  Is that correct?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Let's just be very clear about this Mr Shane.  You were only a commander in Penduka, that is Tambo Slovo, not in the whole of Tokoza.  Is that correct?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: That is correct.

MR SHANE: When you, let's put it this way, were you the number one commander, in other words, in that section Penduka, you were in charge of the entire Self-Defence Unit.  Is that correct?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you trained?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you given any instruction on how to command such a unit?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would give political leadership to the unit?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: We used to meet with the ANC which will be represented by Mr Duma Nkozi who is in parliament in Cape Town.  This included Mr Louis Sibeko who is councillor at Greater Alberton.  These are the people with whom we used to meet falling from different organisation.

ADV GCABASHE: They are, just to get this right again, they are the people who formed part of the overall committee that was guiding all the units in Tokoza.  The central committee is what they called it, I think.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, there were other people and I think they are part of these applications.  Maybe I cannot remember them all now.

MR SIBANYONI: You spoke about the councillor, I didn't get the name.  Who is this second name?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Louis Sibeko is the name.  Louis Sibeko.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's Louis Sibeko, Duma Nkosi, and?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Shall I give you all the names?

ADV GCABASHE: All the ones you remember, yes.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Bonga Nkosi, Lucky Siyephe, Blamoses Kupeka, Dumnisani Mbatha, Meneer Ngcubi.  I cannot remember the others, but they are part of this submission.

MR SHANE: Now, when did you join the Self-Defence Unit?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Between 1991 and 1992.

MR SHANE: And when did you join the African National Congress?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: In 1990.  But I used to follow the ANC before 1990, but then I joined in 1990 after the unbanning of the armed struggle.

MR SHANE: Did you live in Penduka section, with your family?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, I used to reside there, at Khumalo Street.

MR SHANE: What happened to your family's home?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: The house was occupied by Inkatha people.  Before the occupation they actually attacked the house in my absence. I had fled to another area resulting from my SDU activities.  They attacked the house and killed four people.  My grandmother, my grandfather, my brother, as well as my sister.  Am I correct?  It's my grandmother, my grandfather, my mother, my brother, and two of them got injured.  One of these two injured was a neighbour and he's confined to a wheelchair as I speak.

MR SHANE: And you knew that this attack was carried out by Inkatha Freedom Party members.  Is that correct?