Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, yes, I support especially what Advocate Wessels said on behalf of his client.  On a more personal note, I take notice with deep regret what the feelings are of the Minister about my clients and their attitude and that, without giving them the opportunity to testify in front of this Commission about their possible regret about what they did.  It must be said that obviously Mr Omar only read the documentation and he hasn't heard as yet what the relevant parties are going to say about their personal feelings and may I say that that obviously, the matter of regret and the personal feelings is not an element of the amnesty application, but they came here to obviously personally give evidence in that regard.
	I was involved in the amnesty application from a very early date on behalf of, at that stage, also Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha and I wish to refer this Commission to their statements which were signed as early as 1990, that is four years before the new dispensation and I wish to refer to page 54 of Mr van Zyl's statement and I'm also going to briefly refer to Mr Botha's statement and I wish to indicate that Mr Burger, Mr Maree and Mr Basson, whom I represent, confirmed the statements.  It reads as follows, Mr van Zyl says during 1990 already, as I said:
"During my leave time in September 1989, I reconsidered my connections with the CCB.  I realised that the country was going through a new phase of negotiations under the new State President, Mr F W de Klerk.  I was of the opinion that President de Klerk was prepared to speak to the ANC but it would also mean that the internal arms struggle would be ended and the new approach to negotiate with the enemy enjoyed my support and I looked forward to the day that the CCB's activities would not be necessary anymore.  In the light of abovementioned and on behalf of my family's future, I also decided to end my connection with the CCB, so that I could lead a normal life as a South African citizen with the eye on the future and a new peaceful South Africa, as the State President wanted to establish and in October 1989, I retired from the CCB."
Also in a further affidavit, also dated 15th of November 1990, where Mr van Zyl said:
"The new approach to negotiate with the enemy enjoyed my support and I decided, on behalf of my family and my own future, to end my connection with the CCB and to lead a normal life as a South African citizen, so that, with the eye on the future and a new peaceful South Africa, as the State President wanted to establish.  I still realise that peaceful solutions is the way for everyone in South Africa.  I do not doubt at all that the road of violence cannot lead to a  permanent solution for South Africa.  I therefore connection myself without any preconditions to a peaceful solution and also development and also the peaceful use of my political rights in South Africa."
Then the 15th of November 1990,  Mr Botha made a statement to the same effect and he said inter alia:
"I would want to see that my children will have a future in a country of peace and I realise that the future for this is in negotiations between all parties and seen in the light of my personal situation, I will also go into the future with great optimism and I connect myself, without any conditions, to a peaceful solution and development and also the peaceful execution of my political rights in the future of South Africa."
Certainly these are not people who do not have remorse for what they did and I say again, they have not even been granted the opportunity to discuss their personal feelings in front of this Commission before this unfortunate statement by Mr Omar was now entered into the record and may I also just state again that their statements were confirmed by my clients, Burger, Maree and Basson and I therefore take notice with deep regret about Mr Omar's feelings, but may I say he obviously was incorrectly advised about the documentation in this matter and that it is also clear that this statement should not have been entered at this stage, but that Mr Omar should have waited until the finalisation of the evidence in this matter, before stating his feelings in the manner he did.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, my client associates himself with what has been said and I will not repeat.  I would just like to place it on record that in terms of the statement of the Honourable Minister, I would like to object that he objects to my client, Gen Webb's application, and I would like to place it on record that he did not even apply for amnesty with regard to the Dullah Omar matter.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman, on behalf of Mr Barnard, I can just reiterate what Mr du Plessis has already - I'm not going to take the matter any further.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Chairman, on behalf of Mr Botha, the same applies to him, what was said, also the same - he doesn't apply for amnesty for Minister Omar, so what was said in the statement about the personal feelings is not applicable to him, but he is now included into that.  As it pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: To Mr Martini's statements about the application to court, except to say this, that there is nothing there in Minister Dullah Omar's statement to criticise the order that was made by consent, Mr Chairman and not on the basis of any judgment, but nevertheless, it is an Order of Court.  He merely says that he regrets that the community that he has lived in and that the victims, the feelings of the victims or intended victims of the acts of some of the applicants, were deprived of a right to listen to it in their own community, but I don't know that any useful purpose will be served once we're here, in making any further statements in response to Mr Martini.
	I may say, Mr Chairman, if I'm permitted a personal observation, that I was at the pre-trail conference and my impression and my perception is that the applicants, but Mr Martini was the most vocal of the applicants, was really an objection to go to an area where black people lived.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairman, I take strong objection to a statement made publicly and I would like Mr Bizos to apologise, to suggest, to make a suggestion, obviously Mr Bizos hasn't bothered to read the affidavits and it's got nothing to do with race ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Martini, let Mr Bizos finish and I'll give you an opportunity to reply.