Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-11

MR BOOYENS: And in spite of the fact that you think that that inference is justifiable during your whole career in the security police was it ever pertinently told to anybody that we believe that the security forces are responsible for the elimination of the ANC cadres?

MR ERASMUS: No it was never told to me.

MR BOOYENS: Well it's the type of thing that should have been mentioned and should be set out loudly, spoken out loudly.

MR BOOYENS: Do you have any knowledge that later on even a special unit was established pertinently responsible for people regarded as enemies of the State?

MR ERASMUS: I know of that unit, yes.

MR BOOYENS: Tell us more about that? ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens what is the purpose of the establishment of this unit?

MR ERASMUS: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of the establishment of this special unit?

MR BOOYENS: Yes that's what I was getting to Mr Chairman.  Oh sorry you didn't hear what I was saying - my apologies Mr Chairman.  This special unit was responsible to identify and prioritise the so-called enemies of the State?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember who was in charge of this unit who was in charge?

MR ERASMUS: It was a very small unit.  I think there were two or three people in that unit.

MR BOOYENS: But it was a head office unit?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct?

MR BOOYENS: And those were senior officials?

MR ERASMUS: Yes they were senior.

MR BOOYENS: To look at the whole picture Mr Erasmus, right from the time you were a relatively junior officer till you became a general was there an attitude of war, a war psychosis where the enemy had to be attacked, an enemy who became stronger and stronger?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And to use the military example of a military
attack, would it be wrong then to say that the broad strategic decision that a certain target or a certain enemy had to be attacked was taken at the highest level?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: The eventual attack on a specific enemy target then is a decision which is taken by the commanding officer on grassroots level, he would decide about the how, the when and the where?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And I've used a military example, was that how you functioned?  You were the commanding officer on the ground who had to execute the broad policy regarding the attack on the enemy.

MR ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: I am indebted to the Commission Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Moosa.

MR MOOSA: Mr Erasmus would I be right in saying that your application that you made for amnesty was carefully thought out, carefully considered and the form properly filled in?

MR ERASMUS: As far as I know, yes.

MR MOOSA: The form which appears in volume 1 from page 30, as far as we can see on page 34, was signed on the 11th of December 1996.

MR ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: And in this form you associate yourself with the statement made the next day, that is the 12th of December by Mr du Plessis is that right?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: It was carefully thought out.  I take it that the date October 1981 was also something carefully inserted if we look at Mr du Plessis' statement there is another date.

MR ERASMUS: As I have already told you I can't comment on the 31st October or October 1981, I can't give an explanation about this.

MR MOOSA: I didn't get you quite clearly about the Lady Grey meeting with Mr Coetzee.  Are you telling us that as regards the theft of the vehicles Mr Coetzee talks about that didn't happen?

MR ERASMUS: I am saying I don't have any knowledge of the theft of this vehicle.

MR MOOSA: And I take it, it goes further you don't have any knowledge, in fact you deny the receipt of the money from Mr Coetzee.

MR ERASMUS: That's what I've said, yes.

MR MOOSA: Agree with me, however, that the theft of the vehicle is something associated with a very specific date, namely the 13th of September 1981?

MR ERASMUS: No I don't have any knowledge of that. ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: My learned friend is confused between two thefts Mr Chairman.  I think the one that has been mentioned in these proceedings is the Audi A80 which was allegedly stolen here in Port Elizabeth or surrounds.  The one that Mr Coetzee refers to in regard to this particular witness concerned a kombi that was driven by a group of alleged trade unionists up to Harare and they slept over in Johannesburg and Mr Dirk Coetzee says that he stole the vehicle there and he sold it over the Swaziland border for R7 000, and that is the money he gave to this witness.  So it's a different vehicle.

MR MOOSA: Thank you for the correction.  I apologise.  Now as regards the theft of the Audi do you have any knowledge of it?

MR ERASMUS: Nothing whatsoever.

MR MOOSA: I am asking because you as divisional commander have already told us that you would receive fairly regular reports from officers under your command.

MR ERASMUS: That is so but I would not receive a report regarding the theft of a motor vehicle.

UNKNOWN: Excuse me, but if it was a theft by the Security branch in the form of I don't know, of a certain operation against the trade union, a security operation, would that not be reported to you?

MR ERASMUS: Possibly yes, but this incident I have no knowledge of.

MR MOOSA: I wonder if you could look at volume 2, page 177.  Have you got the page?

MR ERASMUS: Yes I have.

MR MOOSA: Would you agree with me that reading that page one reaches the conclusion that Mr Kondile was still available, was still alive at that time in October 1981?

MR ERASMUS: I can't read this but if this is what you are saying I accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that should be put beyond any doubt.  Is there any difficulty in being able to read it?

MR NYOKA: No difficulty Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is your answer to that question?

MR ERASMUS: Can I just read through this or try to read through this?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please, read through it.

MR MOOSA: To assist you, I'm really referring to paragraph 2.1.

MR ERASMUS: I can see what is written here.

MR MOOSA: Your comment please?

MR ERASMUS: All I can tell you is that I am convinced that the date when this man was released according to our records, is the 10th of August 1981, that was the date he was released and the 11th was the date he was eliminated.

MR MOOSA: Are you saying this after having consulted the record and discussed it with Mr du Plessis as well as Mr van Rensburg and Mr Raath?

MR ERASMUS: I'm saying it because I saw this document which was sent to head office and which stated that he was released on the 10th of August 1981.

MR MOOSA: Amongst the documents we see in Volume 2 which you've told us were conveyed to head office, you will agree with me that there is no mention of a note at all that was found on Mr Kondile.

MR ERASMUS: That's what I've already said, yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Erasmus, please tell me who wrote this report on page 177.

MR ERASMUS: It seems it was handed in by Lesamela and it came from Ladybrand.  All explanation I can give is that Ladybrand would not have been informer per say by us and if you look at Kondile's release you would see that that telex did not go to Ladybrand.  In other words this gentleman at Ladybrand would still have been under the impression that Kondile was still being detained.  This is the only explanation I can provide.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, but could you tell me the name of the person that is the author of this document.

MR ERASMUS: If you look just under the heading it's Detective Sergeant Lesamela.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: And it originates from Ladybrand, this is in the right hand top corner?

MR ERASMUS: That's correct, and the date was 21.10.1981.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Moosa?