Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: You said that there was a plan or an agreement that the askaris would be granted bail and that they would be smuggled back.  What in fact happened?

WITNESS:   They were granted bail in the end of the first court appearance, R800,00 each.  Ermelo Police, Chris Dieklifs, brought them back in the boot of the car, him and his men, to South

MR JANSEN: /Africa,

MR JANSEN: Africa, and nothing ever happened again.  Nothing was ever

MR JANSEN: heard of it again.

MR JANSEN: Was that reported to you?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR JANSEN: Now, were any disciplinary steps ever taken against you within the police because of the Pillay incident?

WITNESS:   Not at all, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: If you could just bear with me for a moment, Mr Chairman.  (Pause)  What would the purpose have been of abducting somebody from Swaziland for purpose of interrogation?

WITNESS:   It happened in the past, and people were charged after being abducted from Swaziland in court cases in South Africa.  There's record of that.  If a case could be prove against him of involvement in some so-called illegal activities during those days.

MR JANSEN: And if such a court case, or such a case could not be proven what would then have been the purpose?

WITNESS:   I am sure if the askaris were not caught, if they came out clean, and it was proven in the end that Mr Pillay did not know nothing at all, there was a point of non return that they always talk about.  "We can't send him back now, it'll cause an international outcry," and the next instruction, I am 100% sure, would have been to get rid of him.

MR JANSEN: But what would have been the purpose of his interrogation?

WITNESS:   To get information out of him as much as possible.  If there's no involvement at all in any cases where they can charge him for then get as much information as possible of other ANC cadres, their movements, their houses in Swaziland.

MR JANSEN: The interrogation of somebody for purposes of getting information from them, was that something strange

MR JANSEN: /or out

MR JANSEN: or out of the ordinary for a Security Policeman at the

MR JANSEN: time?

WITNESS:   No, not at all.  It wasn't.

MR JANSEN: And the original planning or the mentioned of the possible abduction of Mr Pillay, from where did that come?

WITNESS:   If my memory serves me right, from Brigadier Skoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Again those orders were conveyed to you by him, is that it?

WITNESS:   By him, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: To you?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.  One should just acknowledge too the fact that the Eastern Transvaal Regional Branch, the Regional Head Office, was fully involved because Ermelo Branch was falling under the Regional Eastern Transvaal at the time.

MR JANSEN: Now, if the suggestion would be made to you when van der Lith phoned you and said that they had abducted somebody, why did you not instruct van der Lith to immediately return that person to Swaziland?

WITNESS:   No, the idea was to get him out to South Africa and to get the askaris out immediately, because if he was then returned to Swaziland at that stage the askaris were still in Swaziland, they were all there.  If you returned Joe Pillay at that stage he would have gone to the police, and the askaris - what eventually did happen in any case - would have then been picked up by the Swazi Police as a result of the abduction that has been completed, and the return would have just made it an open and closed case for the arrest of the askaris then.

MR JANSEN: Then just to recap.  The instruction to take Mr Pillay to Pretoria for purposes of interrogation, did that instruction also come from Skoon?

WITNESS:   The original one after Koos phoned me that night came from me, Dirk Coetzee.  What would have happened after, if it was

MR JANSEN: /planned,

MR JANSEN: planned, and the plans were intact and agree on, I am sure that would have been the instruction from Brigadier Skoon too, yes.

MR JANSEN: And the calling up Captain Taylor and - from Durban, where did that instruction emanate from?

WITNESS:   Brigadier Skoon and higher up.  It wasn't made by me.  I was just told to sit and wait, and that Captain Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie were on their way.

MR JANSEN: Did you understand your part, or the general practice of detaining and interrogating them, whether legally or illegally, as serving some function in the war against the ANC?

WITNESS:   Can you just repeat the question.

MR JANSEN: Did you at the time consider that the interrogation of people, whether they are being held legally or illegally, was part and parcel of the war against the ANC?

WITNESS:   Absolutely, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR JANSEN: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: When did you first see Mr Pillay after his abduction?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon, sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: When did you first see Mr Pillay after his abduction?

WITNESS:   At Vlakplaas when the Ermelo - two persons from Ermelo, which was Sergeant Chris Rorich and Constable Johan something, arrived with him ... (inaudible - end of Side A, Tape 1) ... Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And you noticed that he was already badly injured?

WITNESS:   He was severely beaten up, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Severely beaten up.

WITNESS:   Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is anything done about people who are severely beaten up before interrogation?  Is there such thing as medical treatment, x-rays and so on?  Is that done?

CHAIRPERSON: /No, not at

CHAIRPERSON: No, not at all if they want to keep - if a person is so severely beaten up that he might die, or would not be in a position to be interrogated, they would always get in a doctor's friend, or a private practitioner whom they know very well, or a army doctor, to sort of patch him up to keep him alive while interrogation is going on, but not officially, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you told about Mr Pillay before all this took place?

WITNESS:   That he was part of the ANC Natal machinery, one of the more senior guys.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all?

WITNESS:   That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all.  And what was he doing in Swaziland?

WITNESS:   I later learned that he was teaching in Swaziland after this all happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

WITNESS:   He was a teacher.

CHAIRPERSON: It now transpires that a terrible offence was committed against a man who, to your knowledge now, did not deserve all this.

WITNESS:   Was absolutely innocent, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe, did I understand correctly that Mr Pillay is in Canada at present?

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, that is so, Mr Pillay is in Canada.  And, Mr Chairman, Mr Pillay was contacted and he has since submitted a statement that he - in his letter, I've got a covering letter where he states that this letter can be - this statement can be made use of at the Truth Commission hearing, that is this hearing.  I was going to inform the Committee that at the end of the evidence that I have that letter, which copy I am going to read into the record and give copies to the members of the Committee.  He is not here himself, but he is aware of
	/what is
what is happening now as per his letter.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody here present, or who can be readily available, who actually saw the beating up of Pillay?

WITNESS:   Except for the part at the observatory, where I personally was present with Major Kallie Steyn and Tobie van Rensburg, as far as Jerry Fourie and Andy Taylor is concerned, only the askaris, who are available.  All of them still - except Petrus Kgaodi, who was killed, but Thabu Magagi is still available, Jeff Busigu is still available.  Something might tell me even Stephen Mbanda, who was also connected, before it was started to become an askari, to the specific machinery, Natal machinery.  There's people available, yes.