Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not recall at that time to tell him.  It didn't come to my mind to tell him at that time.

ADV MOTATA: And you were asked again a question and you come back and give a detailed statement.  If you have regard to the papers, that would be page 10 of the paginated papers, and you look at (b)
"Reasons why I contend that my act/acts or offence/offences are associated with political objectives".
You go through the entire page, you don't mention either that you were a supporter of ANC, you don't mention it anywhere there.  Would that be correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That's correct, Sir.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Mr van der Berg.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it please you, Chairperson.
	The next contradiction:  you also did not mention that you conducted interviews with the AWB members, did you also forget to mention that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's probably more precise to say, that he questioned them.  An interview is different to just putting a few questions.  I think let's rather use the term "questioned", rather than interview.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, in your affidavits you also did not mention that you asked questions of these AWB people, did you also forget to mention that in your affidavits?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I would not recall everything to the detail.  Some things you would recall and some you would omit.

MR VAN DER BERG: I also mention it to you, and you've already answered this, with the regards to the hand that moved - and I'm going to mention this for the record, I'm not going to ask you any questions.  Nowhere in your affidavits did you mention that you raised your arms in the air and shouted: "Viva ANC".

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I told you time and again that you cannot recall everything to the detail.

MR VAN DER BERG: And in your affidavits you did not mention that you felt nervous, and time and again you also mentioned that to the Committee.  You don't mention that either.  Did you also forget this?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr van der Berg, I told you that you can't recall everything to the detail.  I'm telling you now that you cannot recall everything.  I've said this to you timeously.  You cannot take things minute by minute, some of the things you would actually forget.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, I'm going to dispute this at the end of the day, that you deliberately misled that Amnesty Committee with regards to this information or on the other hand that you might not be telling the truth today.  I'm going to argue that.
	Please turn to page 11 of the bundle and specifically paragraph 5 thereof.  Do you have it in front of you?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I have it, I can see it.

MR VAN DER BERG: I'm going to read paragraph 5 on page 11
"At the time this happened the people forced me to take a stance and defend them.  I had two choices, either to disobey the will of the people and be the enemy and they would see me as a puppet of the homeland government, or to act in protection of the people and achieve a political result.  The assault, it is to stop the takeover by the AWB and enable them to struggle and change and participation in elections".
Mr Menyatsoe, you did not make this allegation in your evidence in chief, why did you not mention this to the Committee?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It is possible to forget what you have written years ago.  It is a possibility to forget things.

MR VAN DER BERG: Chairperson, if you'll just grant me a minute please.  I'm almost finished with my questions.  I just want to make sure of something.
	Mr Menyatsoe, if I understood your evidence of yesterday correctly, you say that it was necessary for you to shoot the AWB members because after you shot them the shooting and the murdering of people stopped, is that correct?  That is how I understood your evidence.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That's correct.  After having sent them to their last destination everything came to a standstill.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, if you did not shoot them, what would the difference have been?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I've explained that the shooting might have continued if I did not shoot them.  Anything would have happened further on.

MR VAN DER BERG: What shooting would have continued?  Because we know the AWB was retreating, so what other shooting would have taken place?  It can't come from the three men who were lying there.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was not aware of the fact that the AWB was retreating.  This is the first time I hear of it, from you.  I did not know whether they retreated or they were retreating at that moment.
	As to where they were going or what was their business, I just saw them attacking.  I did not get any report saying: "AWB is retreating".  Nobody came to tell me that.  This is the first time I heard this, from you this morning.  
	Even on that video you've just shown us, Colonel de Kock has told Mr Terreblanche to leave Bophuthatswana and he said: "Me, Terreblanche, I'm already in Bophuthatswana, so that is nonsense, I am not going anywhere".  So if you say that they were retreating I don't know of any other place you are talking about, there was only one Bophuthatswana at that time.  Where was he retreating to, because he was still in Bophuthatswana and he was refusing to go.

MR VAN DER BERG: The group that was on the way out, the convoy, didn't you see this?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I saw that group because the one bullet even hit next to my shoe.  I said that yesterday.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, if you look at the same bundle in front of you, page 30, I refer you to line 14 from the top.  The sentence starts with
"We should bear in mind that during this period more than 40 people had died and many were injured".
When you shot the three AWB members, you were not aware of the 40 people who had been killed, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I never said to you I was not aware of this.  I never said this, and you've never really asked me that question regarding this.  So don't say that I've said this before.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, you state it here in your statement.  It's a statement that you make in your statement.  All that I'm telling you is that you did not see these people who were killed.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please reconstruct your question.  You say I said I did not know how many people died.  One question at a time please.  I think your journey has come to an end now.  I do not understand your questions, Sir.  I suggest that you surrender and give in.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Menyatsoe, the question is, in this statement to which you've been referred to, you say that more than 40 people died and many were injured.  Now what Mr van der Berg is asking you is, at the time that you shot the deceased did you at that time know that 40 people had died and many were injured?  You've already told us, we know that you personally saw some people being shot and injured but did you know that 40 had died at that time or did you only learn that information later?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I knew, that is why I mentioned it in my statement.  I knew what was happening and what was continuously happening and thus I mentioned it in my statement that I produced in front of this Commission.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Menyatsoe, you said whilst you were at TTA, a bullet was fired which nearly hit your foot, do you recall that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, Sir.

ADV MOTATA: That prompted you to go out and defend people, isn't it so?