Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Firstly it is true that prior to 1990, already there were embryo's of people Self Defence Units in many areas, especially here in kwaZulu Natal, so what the ANC did, it took advantage of the conditions of legality to form this open structure that were openly accountable to the communities to which they belonged.
	But as an organisation we took political responsibility of ensuring that whenever our people of the ANC or Umkhonto weSizwe  were involved, we need to ensure that we do these things in a politically responsible manner, taking moral responsibility for our own actions.
	That is why whenever we participated in the Self Defence Unit, we always emphasise the question of discipline and accountability to the structures to which they belong.  In that sense, we did as a political leadership of the ANC, within the constraints of the difficulty of the times, to assist in ensuring that those Defence Units that our people are involved, are as disciplined and as accountable as it is possible.

MR LAX: Just one last question, you had been asked this question before.  It relates to, you spoke about disarming people who stepped out of line, and you said that in the main, that was the main form of discipline that you applied. 	What I am really interested in is what other forms of discipline as far as you are aware, if you are not aware of them, then that is fine, they may have happened beyond your ken, so to speak, but if there are other forms of discipline that you are aware of, we are just interested to know how was that applied, besides disarming people?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, that was the main form of discipline that I am aware of that they were disarmed and in many instances where they were members of MK, there was a distance that was adopted by MK vis-a-vis those comrades or former comrades were involved in such activities.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax.  Mr Radebe, you said that in 1985 you underwent military training in Angola.  Was that a comprehensive military training that you underwent, could you give us just some details as to the duration of your training and as well as what you were trained in, I presume it was the use of firearms, guerilla warfare tactics, that sort of thing?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I underwent special training for a period of about four months, military tactics, military engineering, military combat work, the use of firearms, political education obviously, physical training sometimes six hours a day, sometimes it sounds ridiculous, but we used to train for almost six hours a day.
	Those were the types of focus training that I underwent.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Committee?

MR WILLS: Just one brief question, thank you Mr Chairman.  Committee member, Mr Lax, asked you about discipline.
	The people who were responsible of serious breaches of the policies when acting as SDU members, were those people ever expelled from the organisation?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, there are many who found themselves outside the organisation because of their conduct.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hewitt, do you have any questions arising?

MR HEWITT: I have no questions arising, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete, any questions arising?

MS THABETE: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Radebe, that concludes your testimony.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, I did indicate to the Committee members in chambers, that I would require a short adjournment before we go onto the next applicant.
	I would request that at this stage, I don't think that I would need longer than 15 minutes.  Mr Chairperson, in addition I would like to request that because of Mr Radebe's schedule, if he could actually be excused at this stage, I don't think it is necessary for him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is there any objection to Mr Radebe being excused?

MR HEWITT: No, my learned friend and I have already discussed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Radebe, we understand that you have a tight schedule and you are excused from further attendance, but you are quite free to stay as long as you like and listen to the proceedings.  You are an applicant after all and you are entitled to be here, in fact you should be here, but you have given your evidence, so in the circumstances, you may leave whenever you wish.
	We will take a short adjournment to enable Mr Wills to have a brief consultation with his next witness.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?