Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-07

WITNESS:   Yes, that could be so, but Romeo was a policeman and he was trained in the use of firearms.  Israel Hlongwane will also explain to you as to where he acquired the necessary skill, because if you remember quite well I came back from Caprivi and I was posted to Port Shepstone in 1986 and up till 1991 I have never killed a person, because I had never been directed to do so.  I only started killing people in 1991, after I had been asked to use the skills that I had acquired in Caprivi, and I would ask Mr Visser to ask himself as to why from 1986 till the time that I was trained as a policeman - that is 1991 - that I had never ever done anything.

MR VISSER: In deference to you, Mr Mkhize, I will tell you.  It's because you were not asked - on your own evidence.  I am going to give you one more opportunity to come clean on what weapons you were trained on in the Caprivi.  I suggested to you on the first occasion when I asked you questions that you were trained in the use of G3s and Browning pistols and HMCs in the Caprivi, and you disagreed with that.  You said that happened when you were a KwaZulu Policeman.  I'm asking you again, did you receive training on the use of those weapons which I have

MR VISSER: /mentioned in

MR VISSER: 2B mentioned in the Caprivi?

WITNESS:   Mr Visser, what made me deny that was that you mixed weapons, different weapons that I got trained thereon on different occasions.  I told you about the G3 that I did basic training in Caprivi but the HMC I was trained at the time that I was being trained at the Police College.

MR VISSER: And Browning 9mm pistols?

WITNESS:   From the Police Force at the Police College.

MR VISSER: I just want to put it to you, Mr Mkhize, you made a statement which was handed in at the Goldstone Commission, in which you gave different evidence.  I'm not going to take it any further.  Mr Chairman, that's all I want to cover, thank you.

WITNESS:   May I answer that one?  I'm prepared to.  Mr Visser, it is true when you say that I made a statement different from the one I'm making today, that is to the Goldstone Commission, and I am happy that it was the Inkatha advocate who told us to make those statements.  Mr Visser will remember that at the time we were with M Z Khumalo, as well as Advocate Visser himself, when we were at the conference room at the Legislative Assembly, Mr Visser was with his secretary, who was having computers which they used to type the statements.  You will remember that he stressed - that is Mr M Z Khumalo - as to which guidelines or principles that governed us when we gave the statements.  That is that of denying everything.  We had to deny that we were trained on mortars.  We denied that we were trained in the use of   AK-47s, as well as other ammunition and weapons that I countered yesterday.  The only thing that we admitted in those statements was that these weapons - we were trained so that we could be able to identify the weapons, that is

MR VISSER: /the only purpose

MR VISSER: 2B the only purpose of the training.  I wish to remind you on that aspect that you yourself were involved in trying to make us give false information to the Goldstone Commission.  We did that because we were scared for our lives.  Even besides that we were paying our alliance to the group to which we were affiliated.

CHAIRPERSON: Please don't laugh or talk amongst yourselves.

MR VISSER: Are you quite finished?  Mr Mkhize, you've just proven yourself to be a downright liar, to your knowledge.  Let me set the record straight.  First of all, the person who was with me was my attorney.  Second, I never met you together or in the company of Mr M Z Khumalo at any time.  Third, the purpose of our visit to Ulundi in January, February 1992 was to obtain the facts and prepare statements of as many of the Caprivi trainees as we could find.  Am I wrong so far somewhere?

WITNESS:   In Zulu I wouldn't say you are lying, I would say you are mistaken, but what is important is that your conscience, Mr Visser, you are still on that mission, the same mission of hiding the truth away from the public.

CHAIRPERSON: Please don't interrupt the witness.

MR VISSER: I hear your opinion, Mr Mkhize, but let me tell you that I now know and you know that what you're now saying is not true, but I will leave it at that.  The record will speak for itself.  The fact is you made an affidavit before the Goldstone Commission, in which you gave facts totally and entirely different from what you have told this Commission.  Is that correct?  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   I would like to request Mr Visser to remember that we are talking about people's lives - lives that have been lost, people who have been parted from

MR VISSER: /their families

MR VISSER: 4B their families or who have lost members of their families and it is high time, Mr Visser, that if you are thinking about reconciliation you should start speaking the truth, as is ... (intervention)

MR VISSER: I didn't ask you that question, Mr Mkhize.  With all due respect, you are making political speeches here and it's got nothing do to with the questions I'm asking you.  Are you ... (intervention)

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry, Mr Visser, I just want to interject.  I think that you have asked the question and, in fact, it has been answered.  I think Mr Mkhize did say that he had given the Goldstone Commission a statement which was different to what he is actually telling us here and I think that this kind of debate between witness is not really seemly.

MR VISSER: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Mkhize, could you also refrain from continuing in that vein?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'm compelled to agree with that.  This is taking us nowhere.  We've made the points we wanted to make.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, for the record, it's Sam Maritz.  I've only a very few brief questions and it will relate to - can you see me, Mr Mkhize?  Sorry, I'm hidden here in the back.  Here I am.

WITNESS:   I can see you now.

MR MARITZ: Thank you.  These are very rough figures.  I don't have them exactly, but I imagine that there was something like about 30 VIP protection group trainees, some 30 defensive and some 30 offensive, and the rest of them, including yourself was contra-mobilization.  Does that

MR MARITZ: /accord with

MR MARITZ: 2B accord with your recollection?

WITNESS:   Yes, I did say that I don't have the exact figures as to how many there were in each group, but you are at liberty to create your own figures.

MR MARITZ: Now, I mention the figures, because my recollection is that there were about 100 trainees who eventually fell into the contra-mobilization group.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   This is the second time I'm hearing about this.  Yesterday I heard about 114 or the day before yesterday.  This is my first time to hear this number.  I don't know about tomorrow.  Maybe I'll hear a different number as well.

MR MARITZ: [Break in recording] ... exact numbers.  I'm just trying to get parameters.  I'm not fighting with you.  I just want to understand whether you appreciate that the contra-mobilization group was by far in the majority - at least half of all the trainees.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   That I know explicitly well and I have explained it to this Commission.

MR MARITZ: You've already testified that when you returned from the Caprivi from your training, you were deployed to go and do exactly the job for which you were trained, namely contra-mobilization.  Correct?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR MARITZ: The other members of the contra-mobilization group, do you know whether they were also deployed in the manner that you were?

WITNESS:   No, I don't know their whereabouts.

MR MARITZ: [Break in recording] ... their whereabouts.  Do you know whether they were deployed.