Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

BISHOP STOREY: I think so.  I think if I were to analyse the way I do things, if they are in quotes, then I think that's, I can be fairly certain those are the words as they were spoken, whether there were other things said in that paragraph I haven't seen, I haven't seen any, what's the word? - transcripts, so I may have left something out, but I've a fair confidence that those are virtually, if not exactly, the words that she used.  If there's a sentence left out it's a sentence I didn't think was important for me to note for my concerns about how the church was being attacked and Mr Verryn's integrity was being attacked.

MR KUNY: Thank you, Bishop. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR UNTERHALTER: Bishop Storey, David Unterhalter for the Chili family.  Might I refer you to page 8 of your memorandum and the penultimate paragraph on that page?  You will recall that in your testimony you referred to this passage, which was at the meeting which was held on the 16th of January, and just to refresh your memory you say the following
"This was followed by evidence from another youth who had once belonged to the soccer team and had left.  He related a long story about the team harassing him until they finally caught him and cut his throat with a pair of gardening shears.  He indicated the recently stitched wound and said that he had been left for dead before managing to get assistance at a nearby hostel".
You weren't certain as to the identity of that person.  Is it possible, I know it's some time ago and hard to recall, but is it possible that that person was Lerathodi Ikaneng?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Then next, Bishop Storey, if I might then just refer you to your further record which you indicated was based on your diary, rough notes, and press reports, and the entry next to Tuesday the 14th of February 1989, you will see there, and as you explained that, I think your words were, that the Mandela Football Club was on the hunt, I think those were your words, but in any event you then reflect the following.  You say
"News of an attack on Dudu Chili house, woman and 13-year-old girl shot.  House burnt.  Also killing of one Football Team member".
Is it possible that the date that you have there might have brought together two separate events?  Because my client's version of this will be that the house was in fact attacked and set alight on the 28th of February, but that the incident with the Football Team member was on the 13th of February.  Is it possible that there's a confusion of dates in this rough record?

BISHOP STOREY: It is possible.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you, Bishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Richard.

MR: Might I ask just one question please, I beg your indulgence just for the one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR: Bishop, during this period and all the meetings that you've had with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, the meetings at which she was present, did she ever tell you or tell the meeting that on the day of the 29th of December of 1988 that she had not been present at her home and that she had been in Brandfort all day?

BISHOP STOREY: I need to correct the first part of your question, I didn't have any meetings with Mrs Mandela. I'm referring only to reports from the Crisis Committee.  At no time did any Crisis Committee report to me indicate that Mrs Mandela had said that she had been absent on that day.

MR: Did you not meet her at all during this period?

BISHOP STOREY: No.

MR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Mr Chair, Tony Richard representing Mr Richardson.  Bishop, at your meeting at Attorney Naidoo's office with Xoliswa, Richardson and the attorney, your evidence is that the two, that's Xoliswa Falati and Mr Jerry Richardson were merely minions, is that correct?

BISHOP STOREY: Which meeting, sir?

MR RICHARD: It's the meeting at Krish Naidoo's office on the 16th.

BISHOP STOREY: Incorrect, Miss Falati wasn't there.

MR RICHARD: I've a note here which I didn't note the date of the meeting, but you met with Xoliswa Falati, Richardson and Ayob.

BISHOP STOREY: No.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon I withdraw the question.  No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, yes.  Hanif.

MR VALLY: Are you asking me if I want to re-examine?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR VALLY: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MR VALLY: I did want to say though that Bishop Storey has indicated that he had a statement he wants to read out and maybe this is an appropriate time to do that.

MR RICHARD: After conferring with my colleague, I request permission to persist with that question. It's only one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: The question is, at your meeting where Mr Richardson was present, did he present himself as a person in authority or as a mere minion?

BISHOP STOREY: He presented himself as an angry and threatening kind of person.  I didn't know who he was, he gave me a false name because I demanded to know who I was meeting with and, as you will see in my record on page 6, this older man indicated that he was Manwa Maseko. In the long discussion that ensued about - Mr Naidoo was saying these young people want to make allegations against Mr Verryn, and I was saying that's fine, make all the allegations they like, as long as they know that I'm going to ask hard questions about the circumstances of their removal from the Mission.  And this was the gist of the discussion.  My recollection is that my discussion was primarily with Mr Naidoo.  I don't recollect speaking with Richardson as he turned out to be. It's only when we left that the youths told me in the car that that man who was with them was Richardson, and he's the worst of the lot.  But he was angry, he was threatening, there was a sense of physical threat about his presence.  I wasn't comfortable there, and it was clear that the young people acted differently once he was no longer there.  But he, as I said earlier, I recall him speaking very angrily largely about getting this over with, time, hurry up, that was the kind of - it was like voices in the background sort of rumbling while we were trying to - I was trying to find out who I was dealing with, were these really the young people, I didn't know.  These were the things I was trying to find out and there was this kind of pressure on us from this man.  That's all I know.

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson's instructions are that he did everything with the full knowledge, cooperation, and on the instructions of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.  The other suggestions that I've heard are not in accordance with those instructions.
 Now what I'm asking, at that meeting was he giving the attorney instructions or was he simply commentating from the back?

BISHOP STOREY: No, he wasn't giving the attorney instructions, and it was apparent that the attorney had instructions from elsewhere, yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Hlengiwe.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you, Bishop.  I've just got two related questions.  When you started you indicated that you got involved in a hostage negotiation.  Also quite early in your statement you indicated that you were not leaving to go to a meeting which was asked by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, and also in your brief notes for Bishop, you narrated points, events, which you had sent to the President, and I noted that you left out again that you had refused to go to a meeting.  I'm merely asking this because we take you as one of the witnesses who had no political interest in the whole scenario.  I just wanted your comment as to the negotiations and refusing to negotiate with a person who is really a (...indistinct) person.
 And then also in your points to the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ask one question and then let him answer.

MS MKHIZE: It's easy, he will break it up, Chairperson.  On point No.13 you say this is the latest ...(intervention)