Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: We are going to submit to the committee that that is not an answer to the question, but I don't want to repeat it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, are we going to give the witness an opportunity to read this document?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, it's now available.  Of course you can have an opportunity to read it, Mr Chairman.

ADV D POTGIETER: Mr van Zyl, would you just clarify something for me.
	In reference to exhibit "A", Mr Booyens asked you about the keeping of files.  Was this system computerised?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, this was before computerisation.

ADV D POTGIETER: If you wanted to open a personal file in respect of an activist, did you need to get a number from head office?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

ADV D POTGIETER: Head office would have eventually given a reference number if there is a file opened.  Would there be a local reference number?  And a reference number at head office.
MR J

VAN ZYL: That's correct.

ADV D POTGIETER: Is the head office reference number the one with the "S"?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

ADV D POTGIETER: And local is the one with the "OP", which refers to Eastern Province?
MR

J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

ADV D POTGIETER: Now it seems as if the person who compiled this report could establish that Legal Resources has a reference number at head office?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, it means that he had correspondence in his references, there was an index with reference to all organisations that had a head office reference and every branch had a copy of this reference.

ADV D POTGIETER: This is nation wide?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.  It was like a "contents".  This was for all suspicious files nation-wide because no branch had the administration to handle this.  The organisation field was another matter, because it contained only the information with reference to that branch specifically.

ADV D POTGIETER: So would you be able to deduce that there was definitely no head office file with reference to Mr Mhlawuli?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, that means that Cradock where this document had its source from, does not have a contents reference.

ADV D POTGIETER: So you say that it is possible that there is a head office reference that a branch could not pick up?

MR J VAN ZYL: At that stage, no.   It would have been left to the division if - Cradock headed a letter to the division it would have been left to the divisional head office to bring about further references to the report.
	If the information was such that it was not necessary at divisional level to send it on to head office, it would have been liaison or filed at the branch.

ADV D POTGIETER: So if a person drew up such a person, do you just look at the records of his relevant office?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's all that's available.

ADV D POTGIETER: He doesn't do reference - he does not try to establish at least at head office that there is a reference number to this relevant person?

MR J VAN ZYL: It would have been a great trouble to do this.

ADV D POTGIETER: And in terms of Mr Mhlawuli at that stage, they were working at Oudtshoorn, they wouldn't have liaised with Oudtshoorn if there was any record.

MR J VAN ZYL: Branches went through their divisional offices.

ADV D POTGIETER: At that stage Cradock had nothing to do with Mr Mhlawuli?

MR J VAN ZYL: They had no knowledge or official reference to him.
	If Cradock had any reference to Mr Mhlawuli, if Mr Mhlawuli was active at Cradock and if he had drawn unwanted attention, there would have been a reference to him.

ADV D POTGIETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we adjourn until the witness has had the opportunity to read the document?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl have you had an opportunity to read the document?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr van Zyl, have you had an opportunity of reading the extract of the evidence of Eric Winter, given at the Judge Zietsman's Inquest?

MR J VAN ZYL: I have, thank you Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: May we put it in as exhibit "P".
	Would you accept for the purposes of my question that this was the evidence given by Mr Winter at this inquest?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And there is a sufficient portion of it for you and us to be able to understand it in the context in which it was given?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, the first part that I want to ask you about is what appears on page 611, line 15.
	I just want to read that small portion out to you and ask you a question about it.
"I followed up Lieutenant Fouche at the end of March beginning of April 1985, I am not sure what the precise date is.  With my arrival at Cradock, I was not familiar with the circumstances of the security there and immediately on my arrival at Cradock, I familiarised myself with the circumstances there and which problems there were.  It came to my attention that the deceased, Matthew Goniwe, was considered as a leader figure of the progressive elements at Cradock and they expressed their dissatisfaction with reference to community situations, education, housing, etc."
	I want to ask you, if this evidence is correct, it would appear that the report given by Mr Fouche to Mr Winter and his own observations were also substantially watered down to your image of Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, I would say that Mr Chairman.  It would seem that those were his initial impressions.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I don't know that he says anything elsewhere, but we will take it at that.
	Would there have been any reason for Mr Fouche, who was his predecessor to be not as well informed as you were, if what you say is true?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I don't see that he actually had a discussion with Mr Fouche.  It could be that Mr Fouche was away at the time.  It didn't mean that Mr Winter got his information solely from a report from Mr Fouche.
	He does not indicate that at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: But if it is shown that he did have discussions and briefings with Mr Fouche from other portions of the record, would you accept that there was no need for Mr Fouche to be ill-informed and not give as dramatic a picture of the doings of Mr Goniwe upon his arrival at Cradock?

MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know if they in fact had any contact with each other, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, very well.
	Now I don't want to read the rest - at the bottom of that page, but nor the top of page 612, other than to indicate that again Mr Mhlawuli's  name does not appear.  Do you agree with that?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Mhlawuli, at the time, was not a Cradock political suspect.  Not a Cradock as such...

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, this was end of March, beginning of April.  But be that as it may, I merely wanted to draw attention to it.
	And then you see on line 20 to 25, and I don't want to read it out, how Mr Goniwe was monitored?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And on page 613, line 13 to line 25, as to how he was kept under observation both electronically and by observation.

MR J VAN ZYL: By the Cradock Branch, that's correct.