Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR BRANDT: Mr Chairman, I'm not going to be a jack in the box, perhaps Mr Prinsloo could just leave me to do my job and he'll do his afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think Mr Prinsloo, you have all the right to put this to your client and bring it out under re-examination.
	Do carry on.

MR BRANDT: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Again Mrs Derby-Lewis, you asked a question and he replied to you in a very sympathetic way, what his views were.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: How do you know it was sympathetic?

MR BRANDT: Well Madam, look at the tape and you'll see it.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: But this was at 2:16, I'm talking about when I first came in at 5 o'clock in the morning, I'm talking about now.

MR BRANDT: Yes, Madam, I am talking about that.  At 2 it's the very same thing - tape one 2:17:34, you asked him
"Is Clive going to get bail"?
and he said to you quite honestly:
"No, Kuba isn't going to get bail, Clive isn't going to get bail and nor are you"

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well?

MR BRANDT: He didn't threaten you Madam, he informed you.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: But he threatened me before which isn't on the tape.

MR BRANDT: Well, what is on the tape was not threatening.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, what is on the tape - there's a whole five - there's nine I think, seven or nine hours missing from what's on the tape.  I mean, surely I'm at liberty to say what happened then - I wrote about it before there was any talk of a Truth Commission and I've submitted that document, so I wasn't cooking up something just for now.

MR BRANDT: Madam, what happened before that is none of my concern at this stage, what I put to you is that on tape one at the relevant times I placed on record, this happened namely, you asked him certain questions and he replied to them in a sympathetic, straightforward and honest manner, do you agree with that?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BRANDT: Right.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, may we just enquire which is now tape one that my learned friend is referring to, what date?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: 23rd of April.

MR PRINSLOO: Because we know now that the Mrs Derby-Lewis was arrested on the 21st, is it now the 23rd or the 24th?  To what tape is he referring to?

MR BRANDT: As my colleague's client has just informed him, it's the 23rd.

CHAIRPERSON: 23rd.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I'm sorry, I mistook it for the 21st, I apologise.

MR BRANDT: Again, on that very same tape at 2:19:10, Mr Deetleffs said to you very sympathetic
"Darling, you must be strong"
Those are the words.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't write that down.

MR BRANDT: Well, I did.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, ...[intervention]

MR BRANDT: And I put it to you, can you dispute it Madam?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

MR BRANDT: Now is that the words of a person this ogre who threatens you?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: But he threatened me on the 21st, I didn't say he threatened me on the 23rd.

MR BRANDT: Yes.  In fact, he went further on and he said in Afrikaans
"I just want to cheer you up a bit"
Do you dispute that Madam?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

MR BRANDT: Right.  I'm going to summarise it because it's futile to go through each and everything, it's going to take ages.  I'm putting it to you Mrs Derby-Lewis, that Captain Deetleffs - when he arrested you and subsequent, he warned you in terms of Judges Rules and as far as tape one and tape two are concerned, there is not one piece where I could find where Captain Deetleffs exhibited either a threatening attitude, domineering attitude or any threats of physical nature or otherwise, would you agree with me on that?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.  May I also say that there are huge gaps in the time that Mr Deetleffs interrogated me, so this isn't the full story.

MR BRANDT: Can I ask you this, according to - and again correct me if my impression is wrong, the person who really bugged you was Captain de Waal.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, because Captain de Waal told me to change certain statements, that's correct.

MR BRANDT: Yes, and not so much Captain Deetleffs?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, with respect, you are talking now about Mr Deetleffs's emotional behaviour and so on and so forth and that's what I'm talking about.  In terms of the legalities of the thing, Mr de Waal did more damage by far than Mr Deetleffs.

MR BRANDT: Yes.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: But you now - you set the agenda in terms of behaviour and treatment and so forth and that's what I'm discussing.

MR BRANDT: Correct, because the allegations were made that you were maltreated etc., etc., by Captain Deetleffs.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: But I was in the beginning but it's not on the tape, there is no tape of that.

CHAIRPERSON: At any rate, as far as those portions of the tape that we see, you have admitted that there was no threatening or domineering attitude displayed by him?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, yes, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all.

MR BRANDT: Madam, I think it's Exhibit Y2 - that's the number, do you have that before you perhaps - it's a photostat copy of hand-written notes.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BRANDT: Were these notes made by you?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: These were made by me, yes.

MR BRANDT: Now, if you look at the second paragraph, the last sentence under the heading:  22 Thurs. ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Which page was that?

MR BRANDT: That's the very first page I think, it starts with - the paragraph starts
"Doctor Treurnicht died - again problems"
etc., etc., do you have that before you?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Oh I'm sorry, these are photostat copies of the notes that I made while I was in the Benoni Police Station.

MR BRANDT: Yes, correct.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.  22nd of Thursday
"Doctor Treurnicht died"

MR BRANDT: That's right.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Right.

MR BRANDT: Now, the last sentence under that heading - 22 Thurs. says
"6a.m. - Deetleffs drunk and swearing"

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BRANDT: Now, could you tell me when on that particular day was he drunk or was that 6a.m. the time that he was drunk according to you?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, he was drunk when he came in, in the evening and we went the evening before at about 11 o'clock and then we went through the whole night and I think
"Deetleffs drunk and swearing"
just refers generally to the evening - I don't - the 6a.m. refers to Fani Jacobs because he came at that time to tell us that Doctor Treurnicht had died and Mr Deetleffs and company took us in to see Mr Jacobs.

MR BRANDT: Now, do I understand you correctly, that from 10p.m. right through to 6a.m. Deetleffs was drunk?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I don't ...[intervention]

MR BRANDT: Now, when was he drunk?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, when he came in at 10p.m. I could smell that he was drinking.

MR BRANDT: Now Madam, wait, wait, let's get this clear, I think you will agree with me if I have a single sip of some liquor you might smell it on my breath but that does not make me drunk.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I think if you listen to the tape you will hear that Mr Deetleffs words were slightly slurred but when he came in - he didn't drink in front of me, definitely not, no.

MR BRANDT: Now wait again, was he drunk or did his breath smell of liquor or what was the position?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, he was, he was - I would say - well - I can't think of the word, he was a person who - to me, had been drinking fairly heavily.

MR BRANDT: Fairly heavily?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BRANDT: And from what did you make that deduction?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Because I - it was from his speech and because I could smell drink - it was a small room.

MR BRANDT: What about his speech?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, his speech was slurred and it was different, it was more rolling and sort of slack than when he had taken me in the morning to the room at Benoni Police Station.

MR BRANDT: Well Madam, I beg to differ from you as far as your interpretation of the tape is concerned, I couldn't ...[indistinct] of those allegations on the tape - his speech sounded very normal to me.