Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

EUGENE DE KOCK: As far as I know, Henry van der Westhuizen was not involved with the second attempted coup?  Not at all, and I was not informed as such by Commandant Nieuwoudt and I had no information that Henry van der Westhuizen was involved with the second attempt.

MR LAMEY: Let us just limit ourselves to Anton Nieuwoudt's participation and in his official capacity in the DCC, when did he come into the picture for the first time?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Is this with regard to the coup?

MR LAMEY: Yes, we refer to the second coup, the Duli attempted coup?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Before the second coup, I liaised regularly with Commandant Nieuwoudt and just before he started in the Ciskei, he rendered services for Gen Gozo, he established a company with the name of Research International and at some stage, he attempted to recruit Willie Nortjie to leave the Force and come and work with him.  Afterwards, when Nortje did not do this and I think he afterwards made the same request to me, and  I do have the documents which were signed at that point, but Anton Nieuwoudt was very committed in this attempt, to overthrow Gen Holomisa, or to neutralise him in the Transkei.

MR LAMEY: What I wish to ask of you if I can summarise it, although Mr Duli came to the fore as a person who would execute the coup, but from the first attempted coup, it was a continual planning which led to a further attempt at the coup, where Anton Nieuwoudt and DCC played a role?

EUGENE DE KOCK: It was a continuous situation Chairperson.  Just before the second attempt, when Nieuwoudt, Brink and I met at a holiday house at the coast, I would not be able to find it again, but it was where Anton Nieuwoudt told me that there were 22 men who acted as sources for him, that he had to support these men and their families financially, these men served as sources for him and received salaries on those basis, that they were former members of the Transkei Security Forces, they gave training to the Lesotho Liberation Army who worked from Transkei into Lesotho, that these people were well trained, and after this unsuccessful coup, he told me that these men, some of them were killed and some were caught, but that he still had to support the families financially.  It was not an impulsive attempt to usurp Gen Holomisa's government.

MR LAMEY: You have also mentioned the evidence that there was a written co-operation between Vlakplaas and DCC, so this continuous plan to execute a coup in Transkei, was between Vlakplaas with yourself in command, and the DCC, this was a continuous point on the agenda?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.  I would just also mention that the Chief of Security knew after the first attempt which was unsuccessful, that Commandant Anton Nieuwoudt and Brigadier Tolletjie Botha, the Chief of the DCC, did visit Basie Smit, the Chief of Security.  After the members of the coup were arrested at Queenstown and Anton Nieuwoudt told me that Gen Smit was highly upset and on a lighter note he mentioned that Gen Smit walked around like a sheep and bit the carpet, that is how angry he was because I was involved with the Harms Commission.

MR LAMEY: If Mr Nortje says in his amnesty application and the statement thereof, that you mentioned that the Defence Force had planned a coup, and you have already mentioned Henry van der Westhuizen who was not involved, Mr Nortje maintains that it is his recollection that Van der Westhuizen's name was mentioned, would it then be incorrect, what he has stated in his application?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson, I think that his memory of Mr Van der Westhuizen is simply vague.

MR LAMEY: Very well.  Mr Nortje's recollection is also that Nieuwoudt, or that you would have informed him that Anton Nieuwoudt also approached you for assistance with the supply of weapons which were to be used in the coup, that would be the supply of weapons to Craig Duli?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, however I don't have any recollection of that.  Initially I kept it completely covered up.

MR LAMEY: But you will concede that you may have mentioned this to him?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, that possibility exists.

MR LAMEY: Very well.  Then Mr Nortje says further that it is his recollection and in the amnesty application you mention that the impression was created that Duli upon his own initiative, wished to speak to you and for that reason the meeting was arranged at Jan Smuts Holiday Inn.  Mr Nortje says that it is his recollection that you, from your side, also wanted to speak to Duli and that was also one of the reasons for this meeting at the Holiday Inn?  Specifically according to his recollection, you wanted to know whether or not you could advise him with regard to the execution of the coup, but that Duli wasn't really accommodating to that advice that you offered, that was during the meeting at the Holiday Inn, the Jan Smuts Holiday Inn?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, I spoke to Duli alone.  The only person who was present, was his coloured bodyguard.  I couldn't tell him to leave because Colonel Duli felt safer with him around.  If anybody had been present, anybody other than the bodyguard, it would have been Sergeant Chait.  Vuli Mbotoli was also present, he introduced me to Duli and after that, they requested among others that Chait and Mbotoli leave the room so that Duli and I could speak to each other in privacy, so the only other person that was present, was his bodyguard.  I found it strange when Colonel Duli did not mention that he required radio contact equipment.  No operation, in my opinion, would be of any value if one didn't have radio communication, that would be a basic principle in the execution of any operation, and that is the only suggestion which I made to him and that is why he said if you can obtain this for me, that would be fine.

MR LAMEY: Mr De Kock, my instructions from Mr Nortje are that he was present during the meeting between you and Craig Duli?  I am not saying that he was present during every discussion of that meeting, but he was generally present during the meeting between you and Craig at the Jan Smuts Holiday Inn?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, there was only one such meeting at the Jan Smuts Holiday Inn.  During that meeting, it was only Duli, his bodyguard and I, but also during that meeting, Duli and I worked out code names for ourselves, he provided a telephone number for me, so that I could contact him.  It led to a telephone booth somewhere in the vicinity where a woman would usually answer and then I would use his code name and provide a time when I would call again, at which time he would be there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr De Kock, just - was Mr Nortje at the hotel at all when the meeting was on?  Did he go with you there?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, my recollection is that Sergeant Chait was there, he was the handler of Mr Mbotoli and Mr Mbotoli introduced me to Craig Duli.  Nortje was not present.

MR LAMEY: Very well, I am not going to take this aspect any further, I just want to put it to you that Mr Nortje will testify that he was present during that meeting.  However, he cannot recall somebody like Mbotoli.  His evidence will be that it is possible that somebody like that may have been present, but that he was definitely present during that meeting at the Jan Smuts Holiday Inn.  His recollection is that it was Van der Westhuizen who made the arrangements to have that meeting.

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, I accept that Mr Nortje's recollection may be confused in that regard, it is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you only have the one meeting at the Jan Smuts Holiday Inn?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Then I would like to talk to you about the period of time after your arrival in East London.  Did you stay in the cabanas on the beach front, you and Willie Nortje?