Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

CHAIRPERSON: And then you would have used eastern block weapons?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You would not use a police 9mm weapon?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson, you wouldn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	I'm sorry I might have missed this, correct me if I'm wrong, but between you and Willie, neither of you handed weapons over to the group that went in to infiltrate?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Willie Nortje ...(intervention)

MS PATEL: Sorry, besides the one AK.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, we did not hand over anything else, they had their own weapons, the service pistols that they were issued with and this is what they use, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: If they had gone in there to infiltrate with their normal service weapons, would it not have been dangerous if there was a problem that had arisen during the interaction with whoever they would have been with?  Would it not have been easier for them to go in with perhaps eastern block weapons, to carry out the legend that they were in fact members of a liberation movement?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That would the case, Chairperson, but their own service pistols are normally hidden on their person and then they can infiltrate without the people knowing about it, and this is probably why he asked for the AK47.

MS PATEL: But you'll accept with an infiltration it's a dangerous situation, anything can happen.  They could have been ...(intervention)

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: ... they could have been "gevisenteer" - I'm not sure what the English word is.

CHAIRPERSON: Searched.

MS PATEL: Searched, yes.  That possibility is in fact a real possibility, things go wrong.  So it would have been foolish of them to go in with their normal service weapons, not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, this is not true, Chairperson.  Because why would they then suddenly for some strange reason want to search a person and take his clothes off?  I can't believe this, this has never happened, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But doesn't it make sense?  I mean you're going to go and infiltrate, you are going to pretend to be an MK member and now you are going to go in there with a police pistol.  Your chances are virtually naught
that the people would trust you, doesn't it make more sense to use eastern block weapons, Tokarevs or whatever?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This does make sense, Chairperson, but at that stage as at Chesterville, it was not planned that the thing would escalate in that manner.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's a different point, Ms Patel would probably continue with this, but I will just return to the question that she had posed to you.  Doesn't it make more sense if you want to infiltrate to issue eastern block weapons to your members?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, I agree with this completely, Mr Chairperson, it would be a lot better if everything is eastern block.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	The shooting that took place, you were in the van at the time when it occurred, not so?  Or you were under the bridge or somewhere there when it occurred.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us what type of shooting you heard, was it just from the AK47 or was it from other weapons as well?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: It was an enormous concentrated fire or firing that had taken place for, let's make it a maximum of 10 to 15 seconds I would say.

MS PATEL: And the group that came back, did they report that they all shot?  That they all took part in the shooting?  Because there was a report.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I wouldn't be able to say this, all I can remember is that Simon had returned and said that there had been a shooting.

MS PATEL: Well if I refer you - let me refer you to your application, page 75.  On your Chesterville incident, the second paragraph you say
"A skirmish broke out between them and the askaris came to report that they had killed people."
You don't say Simon Radebe only, you say "the askaris" and - well you amended your papers earlier on, you didn't amend this, so what is your comment?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: What I mean with this is that the whole group came from wherever they had been and Simon Radebe, as the one in command of them, came to report about this.  There is nothing funny about this sentence.

MS PATEL: Was Simon Radebe an askari at that stage?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, he was a police officer, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Well then it doesn't tie in with what you stated here, you said
"Die askaris het kom rapporteer"
... not Simon, and Simon is not an askari.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: The askaris worked with Simon, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: No, but they didn't report to you, you're saying Simon reported to you.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct.  The word "askaris", one uses if - this was used as a general term.  If the group was out and they returned we always refer to the group as askaris.  I could also have said "the group".  I didn't mean anything funny with this, or I didn't try to hide anything, that if one reads it like this then it means that every askari had to say look, I fired a shot and this guy fired a shot and that everyone had to come and report on their own.  I just meant that the group came and Simon said that there had been a shooting, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: What did Simon say exactly when he got back, can you recall?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: If I can remember correctly he just said that a shooting had taken place, Chairperson, and that people had been killed.  I wouldn't say that these were his exact words, but this is basically the run of what he had said.

MS PATEL: Was there no discussion between Willie and Simon in your presence about this?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Willie could have spoken to him further, I do believe this, but I did not listen to the conversation, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Did Simon get into your vehicle at the bridge when you returned back to the police station?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: You mean back to CR Swart?

MS PATEL: Ja.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, he drove his own bus back to CR Swart, if my memory serves me correctly.

MS PATEL: So when did he make a report to Willie, can you remember?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Directly after the shooting when he came from Chesterville he reported.  We waited at the bridge and he reported there to the whole group and from there they had gone to CR Swart in their own vehicle and we went with our own vehicle to CR Swart as well.

MS PATEL: So as far as you can recall that is all he said at the scene at the bridge, that there was a skirmish, people had been shot, and then everybody departed back to CR Swart?  There must have been a discussion then or a meeting at CR Swart again, to get further details as to what had happened, not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, and Simon and his group went to their sleeping quarters, we went to Col de Kock and we informed him that a shooting had taken place.  What exactly had been said there I cannot remember now, it happened a long time ago, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Were you with Willie when the report was made to Mr de Kock?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: And there wasn't another meeting with Simon before you went to Mr de Kock to give him a full report as to what had happened?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Not that I can remember, Chairperson.