Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-08

MR NYOKA: How many unit members were there in your information unit and who were they?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Your Honour, I had a team, approximately more then ten White people and each then had Black colleagues who worked with them.  So I would suggest approximately 20 people at that stage, if not more.

MR NYOKA: Did they have specific roles, individual or as a team, when they performed a task.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The function that they had to do, was to extend the information network and to gather information.  That was the role.

MR NYOKA: So when you acted,  did you do so alone or with these team members of 20 or 10, when you acted Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Your Honour.  If I understand the question correctly, it was only with regard to public meetings held on Sundays and where someone was sent to attend the meeting.  Then we also had a team outside, especially in Centenary Hall.  We then had a team where the meeting was monitored, but when you had to speak to your contact people, your informants, it was usually alone.

CHAIRPERSON: It was usually what?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Your Honour?

CHAIRPERSON: What did you say, it was usually alone.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was usually when you had to consult your agents or people giving you information that you did on your own.

MR NYOKA: Besides your circumstance where you had to consult your agents, did you at all act alone besides consulting your agent?  I'm talking about you now.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I did.

MR NYOKA: Under what circumstances.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Under the circumstances where I was questioning a person and on several occasions I acted alone.

MR NYOKA: What I don't understand, why would you leave your team members and act alone in such circumstances?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It seems as if the legal council doesn't understand what I referred to.  Everyone has its own task and function and then I would give the instruction monitor at a meeting.  Then the whole team doesn't go there.  It's only certain people then who are then nominated to attend that meeting,  whatever the case may be.  When there was an instruction that a certain person must be questioned, the whole team doesn't do it. That's the explanation that I can give.

MR NYOKA: Was there a similar information unit with reference to White affairs?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.  I can just give explanation what the structure is.  Perhaps it would then be easier to understand.  You have your administrative personnel within each section.  You have then Black affairs where it is concentrated on Black affairs where people Black organisations are involved.
	Then you also have affairs where the Indian community as well as the White community as well as the Coloured community would be involved in a particular organisation.  Those personnel had their own commander and their own personnel.
	Then you had a technical section.  They had their own personnel.  Then the administrative staff and all these subsections also had their own administrative personnel.

MR NYOKA: You said that your direct commander was Maj Herman du Plessis and Col H Snyman was regional commander.  	What I want to know, did you as a commander of your unit, report regularly the task that you undertook to either of these gentlemen?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The procedure was as follows.  I would report it after my members gave me reports on information from the agents or informers.  I then went through these reports.  I would then sent it through to my direct commander.
	At that stage it was Col Du Plessis and he then again sent it to Col Snyman.  That was the procedure and Snyman then had to send it to headquarters, head office after he evaluated it and considered it to be important enough.

MR NYOKA: The other way around.  Did you receive instructions from them, from the higher chain of command, filtering down to you and then to your commanders?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR NYOKA: With that you would say that Mr Du Plessis or Mr Snyman knew in general most of the things that you did within the scope of your duties, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In certain instances, yes.

MR NYOKA: What other instances would they not know?  Just give an example.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I believe, for example, if I was aware of a meeting that was held, they did not give me an instruction to monitor the meeting, but I would use my own initiative to do that.

MR NYOKA: Were there occasions where you acted together with either of the two gentlemen;  Mr Du Plessis or Mr Snyman?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, a variety of opportunities where I acted with them.

MR NYOKA: You said you could not remember who had arrested Mr Jack on the 3rd of August 1985.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR NYOKA: Mr Jack said, instructed me that he was never arrested on the 3rd of August, but during the 2nd of August 1985.  What do you say about that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know.  I got him on the 3rd.  I could just refer you to annexure 15.

MR NYOKA: I don't have that, I didn't have a warrant.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If you have a look at Addendum 15, that is the day that I got the instruction to detain him, to have him detained in St Albans Prison.  I can describe the procedure.  You'd take him to Algoa Park, because there is a special task unit and that unit then handled the emergency regulations situations.  There you complete the necessary forms.  The person is then processed and then the members of the uniform branch then takes him to prison.  He was then left there.  That is the procedure.  With his fingerprints and if you just turn the page and then that member of the special team to then work with the processes of the regulations.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Excuse me, M'Lord, I think the original exhibit contained fingerprints on the back which wasn't photostatted.  So it will - it doesn't appear to be on here.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR NYOKA: Is it not correct that Mr Jack was one of the big fish.  He was heavily sought by the police and for a relatively long time during that period, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Could you please repeat the question.  I couldn't hear it properly.

MR NYOKA: I am saying that Mr Jack was one of the big fish that was being sought by the security police.  He was heavily sought by the police to arrest him and for a long time.  Is that correct, Mr Nieuwoudt, he was being sought for a long time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.  That is correct.

MR NYOKA: You mean to say that you have forgotten who achieved the honours of arresting such a highly sought man?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Could you please repeat the question.

MR NYOKA: I am saying,  do you mean to say that you have forgotten the person who achieved the high honours of arresting the big fish that you were looking for a very long time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, there were many people arrested at that stage.  He wasn't the only big fish, in other words he wasn't the only activist.  There were many others whom according to me were greater activists than him at that stage.
	So I really cannot remember.  There were many people detained under the emergency regulations and it's impossible for me to remember who arrested him and where he was arrested.

MR NYOKA: Maybe then I should say on a light note that this was a big pool with big fish - on a light note.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR NYOKA: Do the names Capt Van Zyl and Capt Sakkie du Plessis, accompanied by the policemen, not ring a bell as the people who arrested Mr Jack, according to my instructions?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That might be possible, but I can't remember who arrested him.  That might be the case.  I won't deny that.  I really cannot remember.