Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MR DU PLESSIS: All right Mr Chairman.   May I just say Mr Chairman, that for purposes of this cross-examination and for purposes of my learned friend Mr Visser's facts that he placed before the Commission, I want to get to the point of the question because the point of the question does not turn around the question: "when did he become an informer, when did he become a student", the point of the question is
	Let's accept Mr Ngo, let's accept that you were either an informer or a constable in the security branch of Bloemfontein in 1983.  For purposes of the question, let's accept that.  
	My question to you and that's what the question relates to - my question to you is, explain to us please, why it is that when you were involved in the security branch in Bloemfontein, partly as an informer and partly as a constable, why is it that you know of so many people involved in the security branch whereas when you were two years involved intricately with the security branch in Mamelodi, you came to know only two other people?  Explain that to us please.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The main issue here - all the names that I've already mentioned here, I've mentioned them because I've been working with them.  Because they were present in all the operations, I knew what they have done.  I didn't work with the people I didn't know, even in Pretoria.  The names that I've already given are for those people which I've been working with them.
	I didn't give other names whom I didn't know or work with them, I just mentioned the names of the people I knew before.  I can't make a long list of people whom I do not know, that is the answer I have.  This list of names I - we used to beat people with these other people there.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Mr du Plessis you have asked this question, you are asking it for the umpteenth time.  At some stage I even in fact said to you, let me simplify this question to the witness, I simplified the question to the witness, twice I did that and he gave an answer and you're still going back to it.  You started off by taking us through a catalogue of names, only in the end to make the point: "How come that you knew so many people"?  A point and you live at that point so many times and I honestly think that you need to make progress on this issue.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I'm finished with this issue, the only reason why I keep on returning to the issue is because the facts change every time because of the interjections which were really irrelevant to the question, with respect Mr Chairman but I will leave it at that, I have made the point.
	Now Mr Ngo, can you explain to us exactly how a security branch operation worked when you wanted to petrol bomb a house or you got instructions to petrol bomb a house.  Explain to us exactly how did it come about, how did you get your instructions, how did you prepare usually for that and exactly how was the operation done, in general terms.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Concerning the houses that we have bombed in Mamelodi?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I'm referring to your applications for amnesty - your various applications for amnesty pertaining to petrol bombings.  I want to know from you - you were part of the security branch for two years, you must know how these things came about, how did the orders come, what happened, how did you prepare, how did you usually go out and what did you do and who did you petrol bomb?  Explain that to us please.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What I can explain to the Commission, we went there with our petrol bombs - if you want to know what a petrol bomb is, we've put petrol in the bottle and with some cloths concerning the instructions given by Captain Loots and the members of MYO, we knew exactly which houses were supposed to be bombed.  
	We firstly started with Louisa's house in A1 section.  We went there and lit our petrol bombs and threw them through the windows and the house was burnt down.  We went to the second house ...[intervention]

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Now Mr Ngo, I'm not - don't want you to give evidence now about the specific incidents, I'm just asking in general about the operations of the security branch because you were part of it and you must know about it.  What I want to know from you is, how did an instruction come about to petrol bomb a specific house?  Where did the instruction come, how was it formulated, how did that happen?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: All the instructions were from Captain Loots.  After we have been reporting to him about the conditions in Mamelodi concerning the politics and all other events in politics, he instructed us that we should petrol bomb the first house of which it was the Louisa's house.  After that their neighbours requested them to make some protests against what has happened against Louisa.
	We went straight to Captain Loots, that Louisa's neighbours, they're trying to make some protest march about the bombing of the house.  When we arrived at - to him, he told us to petrol bomb the second house.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the neighbour's house who wanted to protest?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so Sir.  They were sympathising and they were talkative when we first petrol-bombed Louisa's house.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Ngo, I want to go through the separate applications just now, so don't go into detail about these applications.   What I want to know from you in general because you were part of the security branch operations, where did the instructions come from ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He has told us that when they went and reported to Captain Loots, he got instructions from Captain Loots.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I haven't finished the question, with respect.
	You have told us that you received instructions from Captain Loots, was there nobody else that you ever received instructions from?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: All the instructions were from Captain Loots, he was the one who has given us all the instructions and we went with Dannyboy and Lelahle to go there and bomb those houses, there's nobody apart from Captain Loots.

MR DU PLESSIS: And how were the instructions given, personally, did you go to him, did he tell it to you, did he telephone you, did he give it in writing, was it orally?  Explain that to us please.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We went to him when Dannyboy was explaining to him.  It was our duty that if we have gathered some information about the conditions in Mamelodi,  we were supposed to go and brief him.  Hendrik Bokaba used to brief him with the political events in Mamelodi.  According to his understanding he will give us instructions that we should go back and bomb those houses.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ngo, I'm going to Mr Loots's office you told it was in Compol building, is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you tell us on which floor for instance or where this office of Loots was?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I can't remember but we used to use the escalators.  I can't remember the level of that floor but I just guess it was 3rd or 4th floor.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are there security guards on duty at the building Compol, did you have to produce identification to get in?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, there was a guy who looks like a receptionist who used to work in the main entrance.  He knew us very well because we used to come there frequently.

MR DU PLESSIS: And what kind of identification did you have to produce?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He could recognise us as policemen because we used to put the cards but at times we didn't use them because he knew us very well.  But even if he knew us as policemen, he used to give us some certain cards that we were supposed to put before we enter.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you remember how many floors there were in the Compol building?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I can't remember Sir.