Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: To that question you asked Ma'am, despite it being a broad question, I will try to answer.
	As I have said to you Ma'am, and to the Committee, I was not there when they were given the instructions or the orders.  I do not know why, how they got to know that there was going to be a service that Sunday, despite as you say, there used to be no services on all Sundays, I do not know.
	In relation to the allegation that I clapped or hit him, slapped him.  I don't think I would have confessed about big things, and left this small issue.  I did not slap anybody.  If anybody was slapped, he was slapped by somebody else.
	Further, the objective that we were sent to the Church, or those who I was moving with, was sent to the Church to do, that what they did, I would not like to answer on their behalf and say it is because of this or for this, but as far as I know, when you are a soldier you do not ask why, you simply execute orders.
	It is those who are superior to me, who will know the objectives for the attack.  Whatever objectives I can tell you, will be those that I think about, that may be contradicted by them when they come before the Commission. That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, thank you.  Can you give us your full names please?

MS WILLIAMS: Michelle Williams.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather you wish to ask this applicant certain questions?

MS WILLIAMS: Yes, thank you Chairperson.  I really just have two questions and I appreciate there is some answers to the questions, which can't be given.   I hope the applicant will be able to answer satisfactorily to these two general questions.
	It really relates to the suspension of the armed struggle.  To your knowledge, were there factions in the PAC/APLA?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, not as far as I know, I never got to hear about such a thing that APLA was split or something like that.

MS WILLIAMS: So are you saying that to your knowledge, there were not different groupings within the organisation, who may or may not have had different views within the organisation?
	Are you saying that the PAC was ...

MR PRIOR: Sorry, please just let him answer.  I know you are a bit nervous and maybe not used to this.

CHAIRPERSON: You said no.  Is there anything you want to say?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS WILLIAMS: So are you saying that within the PAC, there was never a question that there were groups of people who may have disagreed with other people, that it was a (indistinct) political institution, that had one view on all matters pertaining to the organisation?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so, as far as I know, Ma'am.

MS WILLIAMS: Well, I must say I am not very happy with your answer, but I will ask you one last question.
	That really is, were you part of a renegade APLA faction in your opinion, can you answer that truthfully?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As I have said already Ma'am, myself, I do not know that there was within APLA any divisions to a point where there would be a split.  Even the question that says, asking me as to whether I was part of those who were renegade to, or part of the disagreement, no, I was not part of those.  If there were such groups who were in conflict.  I see that you have information that there may have been disagreements in APLA.  I don't disagree, but I say I do not know anything about it.
	And for that matter, I was not one of those people who were in disagreement within APLA.

MS WILLIAMS: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  And as I said to the previous questioner, if you wish to make any remarks at a later stage, you will all be given the opportunity to do so.
	We will now take what is normally the long adjournment, but we will try to make it a short adjournment today, because we do not want to sit late, because the hall has to be used for other purposes.
	We will now adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ZUKILE MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

MS COLLETT: Mr Mbambo, did you have any reason to think that your Commander, Jimmy Jones, was giving you an order that did not emanate from the policies of APLA?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, I did not have a reason to think so.

MS COLLETT: Did you believe that any of the orders that were given to you, were not in line with the policy of APLA?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I used to believe that all the orders were just in line with the policy of APLA.

MS COLLETT: And what was the reason that you actually joined APLA in the first place?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason for me joining APLA from the beginning, it was the pain and the cry from the oppressed Africans.

MS COLLETT: And did you think that that would assist with the reasons for you joining?  Did you think that by you joining APLA, you would help the oppressed people, the oppressed black people?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MS COLLETT: .

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mbambo, as an APLA cadre, when you became a cadre, did you then get your sudu name, you know your code name, or did you get it at a later stage, when did you get it?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: What happened there Ma'am, when you arrive there, there is a sort of form that you fill in with your details, your name and surname and if you have ever been involved in other organisations before and the reasons for leaving, and the reasons for wanting to become a cadre.
	After all that, you would be given an opportunity to name yourself and you would be told that in that kind of place, the people don't use their real names because of security reasons, even the place you come from.

ADV GCABASHE: Now what name did you get when you joined APLA because as I understand it, Xobani, which is the name mentioned in this record, is the name you got in 1994?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: My sudu name was Maxwell.  My sudu name was Maxwell.  The surname was Grootboom.  I was from Humansdorp in a coloured township called Maccadi.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, why was it necessary for you to be given the name Xobani?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Comrade TNT is the one who gave me that name.  I accepted it because it was the name that will never ever slip my mind.  I think it was because of the reason that the people are not using their real names.
	Besides that we don't actually get to know the peoples' real names, not unless the people are from the same place, that is how they get to know each other's names.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, you have said that you knew Jimmy Jones before March 1994.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he know you as Xobani, did he know you as Maxwell, did he know you as Zukile?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: He used to know my real name, Zukile.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he know that you were a member of APLA?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, he knew.

ADV GCABASHE: But it is correct to say that you weren't a member of any particular unit before 1994?  He wasn't your Commander?
	Sorry, those are really two questions, let me break that down.  First, you were not a member of any particular unit?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: You were not automatically put into a unit when you joined APLA?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And at the time you knew Jimmy Jones, before 1994, March 1994, he was not your Commander in any way?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you know Jimmy Jones' first wife whom we have heard about in Mr Ncamazana's evidence?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I got to know her in 1994 after all the missions.

ADV GCABASHE: Now coming to 1994, one aspect that I still am not too clear about is based on the evidence of Pala Pala, Tona   He says he understood the reason that you were going to East London to be that you were going to steal a car.  What do you say to that, can you explain that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I didn't hear such a thing.  The only thing who came up with such a thing, that he was going to East London to go and steal a car is Pala Pala, I heard him saying that in the Supreme Court at Bisho.

ADV GCABASHE: Why else was he sent as a driver to East London?