Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-30

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: He is an ANC member.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that Mr Skosana arranged for your training and that he is a Major in the Defence Force.  At the time that he made the arrangement, what was he?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: He was an MK Commander at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: My reading of the judgement and it is not very explicit from the judgement, but was Lungisani not present when Mkhize got shot?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: No, he was not present, he had already left the room.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did he leave the room?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: When Lungisani was sitting next to us, I actually told him that he should leave because I actually liked him, we were training them internally and they would also have gone out to be trained at Umtata.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you shot Mkhize, you were just sitting down on the sofa?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I stood up when I shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: You stood up when you shot him and then you sat down again on the sofa, why did you do that?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: There was no time to sit down, because at that time, I heard gunshots and that was the time when Filo was shooting Sbusiso and we had to leave thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that when Filo shot Sbusiso, that you were on the sofa, that is not entirely correct?  You were on the sofa, but you stood up to kill Mkhize and then while you were standing, Filo shot Mlaba, is that right?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I stood up and cocked the G3 rifle and then I shot Nhlamvu.  When I did this, and Filo realised that this person was dead, he stood up and shot Sbusiso Mlaba when he saw him trying to flee.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you accepted what Filo said to you.  Did you not realise that most people would run if shooting occurred in front of them, and somebody was shot dead in front of them.  It would be almost a natural instinct to run away?
	Not necessarily just to call the police, but just to run away, to get out of the line of fire?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Because of the harassment we had experienced, we were not entirely sure, we did not trust whether he was going to go to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you told Lungisani to get out of the room.  Why didn't you say exactly the same thing to Sbusiso?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Lungisani was next to me, near the door.  It was not easy to tell Sbusiso because he was a bit of a distance.  If I had told him, Nhlamvu would have maybe tried to shield himself using Sbusiso and we would not have been able to get him or shoot him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mkhize hear you telling Lungisani to get out of the room?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, he did.  Lungisani was next to me and Mkhize was a bit of a distance away, but he couldn't have jumped and got out of the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it is clear that Mkhize must have known from very shortly after you entering the room, that he was about to die, because that was the first thing you told him?  Is that correct?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, I told him that this was the day, he would not be able to escape.

MR LAX: Just one last thing, in your evidence in court, you admitted being present at the scene, you said that you had arrived there, that you were drinking beer and so on, is that right?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.

MR LAX: Those were all lies, were they?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, it was trying to evade the charges.

MR LAX: So, your only reason you can give us why Lungisani should have given evidence against you, was that he was in this sort of plot with Filo or he was bought by the police or something to that effect?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: That is how I say it.

MR LAX: Thanks Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairman, I have got one slight problem, and excuse me if I didn't see what the Commissioner, Mr Lax, indicated to this witness, but I can't see the part of the judgement which refers to the execution style killing of the second deceased in the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?  I think it is where they talk about a coup de grace.

MR LAX: It is on page T12 of the judgement, between lines 10 and 20.  You will notice there at line 20 that he says Lungisani's version of how the deceased in count 1 was shot with the pistol, is ...

CHAIRPERSON: Page what?

MR LAX: T12 of the judgement, page 5, I beg your pardon, the judgement is T12.  In other words, that is probably transcript 12 of the set of transcripts. Page 5 of the judgement, I beg your pardon, line 10 - 20.

MR WILLS: If I can just comment on this, the deceased in count 1 is in fact the person who ...

MR LAX: That is Mkhize.

MR WILLS: Sorry, if I've misunderstood, the deceased in count 1, is the deceased in respect of whom the applicant admits to having shot?

MR LAX: Yes, the thrust of my reference to that is to say that Lungisani was present, he hadn't left.  That is why I was referring to that aspect, but if you look at - I beg your pardon - maybe we are getting ourselves all confused here, you are probably correct.
	There is no other evidence as to how the second accused died.

CHAIRPERSON: Except from Filo.

MR LAX: yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because Filo in the judgement said that accused 1, I think that was the applicant, said that he must kneel down.

MR LAX: Yes, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: And while he was kneeling down, he shot him.  He, Filo told him not to run away, I think but that was Filo's evidence, which is disputed by the applicant, but which the Court accepted, because the Court made a specific finding that there was no common purpose and so the Court accepted Filo's evidence in that regard.
	I think if you want to find out Filo's reference, just find it.  Where did Filo say that he must kneel down?

MR LAX: Just while you are looking for that, one other issue is that - and maybe your client could just answer this, it is clear from this judgement that the first deceased was shot with a pistol.  That is clear from the post mortem.
	In other words he was shot with a G3 in his upper body, several shots, but the coup de grace was with a pistol.  Now, your client and the applicant agrees that he shot that person and his evidence was, well, I couldn't have shot him with  a pistol, I didn't have a pistol.
	Maybe he could just explain that?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: As I have explained before, I had a G3 rifle, I did not have a pistol.  Filo Mandla Mthetwa is the one who had a pistol.

MR LAX: Are you saying that Filo shot Mkhize in the head with the pistol after you had shot him with the G3?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I don't remember seeing Mkhize being shot at with a pistol.  I shot him, using the G3.  After Filo had killed Sbusiso Mlaba, we left.
	He did not kneel down or bend down to kill or to shoot Nhlamvu.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, it is actually on item 5 of the summary of the statement of facts, where it says that the deceased in count 2 attempted to flee from the room, but accused 1 grabbed hold of him.  Accused 1 instructed the deceased in count 2, to kneel in front of him, and accused 2 cautioned him not to run away.
	Either accused 1 or 2 then shot the deceased.  There is no real evidence of execution style killing, there is an indication that it might have been, but one certainly can't arrive at the conclusion that he was killed execution style, you know laying down with the gun against the back of the head type of thing.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, that is my understanding of the judgement, thank you.

MR LAX: Thank you for pointing that out.  Clearly we have misdirected.

CHAIRPERSON: I have had an urgent application, although it is not (indistinct) for a two minute adjournment.
	If we could just have a two minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any questions arising from questions that have been put by members of the panel?