Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Now if one can summarise the political object of this act that you've committed, how would you summarise it?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well it was basically to prevent the ANC/SACP/COSATU alliance or SACTO alliance from violently overthrowing the government of the day and installing a communist government.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr McCarter, in paragraph 11(a) of your application - Mr Chairman, that would be found on page 39 of the application papers, you were asked: Were these acts or acts committed in the execution of an order on behalf of etc., would you just state your beliefs in this regard to the Committee?

FRANK MCCARTER: I believed that these acts and omissions were carried out on instructions of the then South African Government and the South African Police.  In this particular instance I received a direct instruction from Colonel Andy Taylor.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You've also dealt in paragraph 11(a) with the Cosatu House incident which is not relevant here, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr McCarter, did you at any stage receive any benefit in any way financially or otherwise as a result of this act?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You've said on page 7 of the application papers themselves - Mr Chairman, we'd be referring here to page 38 in the second to last paragraph, you've set out your views is you are to look back with the wisdom of hindsight, would you just repeat those for the Committee?
MR McCARTER
"With the wisdom of hindsight I realised that the things I did were wrong but at the time when I performed these acts I believed they were necessary.  I believed that we were fighting a war where the enemy was not bound by any rules and that I had to do things that went against my grain sometimes in order to stop this enemy.  That is why I was involved in committing a murder.
	I regret these acts I have done and I now realise that they were wrong, but at the time when I did them I did not regard them as morally wrong, although I realised that my acts were illegal."

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Is there anything else that you would like to add?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: In essence therefore you confirm the contents of your application and in particular these aspects we've highlighted today?

FRANK MCCARTER: I do, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: If I may just a moment, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK

CHAIRPERSON: Who's the first questioner?

MR VISSER: I'm prepared to go, Mr Chairman, if you will allow me.
	Mr McCarter, this incident took place as I understand it, on the 22nd February 1987.

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: It's a long time again and if you have as bad a memory as I have I would imagine that it is difficult to recall all the detail today as you give evidence before this Committee, am I correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.  The only reason why I remembered the date was I had diarised it.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Starting with the date, it is Mr Rosslee's recollection that as you said you were here on routine duties in Durban and that that was a stint which lasted from the 10th of February to the 27th of February, would that accord with your recollection?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And the reason why I spoke about how well you remember the finer detail is, I want to put to you immediately that both Mr Rosslee and Mr Wasserman for whom I appear have grave difficulties in remembering certain finer detail.  I therefore want to put to you some of the detail, perhaps you could shed light on those.  Can we start with the question of you receiving the order from Colonel Andy, the late Colonel Taylor?  Now would Rosslee be correct if he were to tell this Committee that his recollection is that this took place at CR Swart Square?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Now what he's hazy about is who were present at the time when Colonel Taylor gave you the order.  He seems to recollect that he himself might have been present, would that accord with your recollection or would you say that his recollection is faulty?

FRANK MCCARTER: I'm not too sure, I would assume that Mr Rosslee was there.  The other people I can't recall.

MR VISSER: Yes, what he says is his recollection is  it was the three of you, yourself, Colonel Taylor and himself.  Not much turns on it but for the sake of a better understanding of the Committee, I'm just trying to clarify theses.
	The next issue deals with what was discussed at the time.  Clearly Mr Bhila was the subject which was discussed, that much is common cause.  The question is, what might have prompted Colonel Taylor in giving the instruction that he should be killed?  Now I have read in your application that you mentioned at page 33, in paragraph 1(iv), that's at the bottom of the page, that:
"Sipho Bhila was an accused in the trial involving the bomb incident at the Sanlam Sentrum in Amanzimtoti."
Now today you, and according to my instructions quite correctly stated that he wasn't charged in regard to that particular incident, he was in fact an accused in the Ramlakan case.  The point arising here, Mr McCater, and I know this is a long introduction for a question but the point arising here is why you would have said Amanzimtoti in your application and why Mr Rosslee in his application at page, I'm sorry, not in his application but in a statement, a Section 204 Criminal Procedure Statement which we will hand in later, referred to the Mac Goo Bar bomb?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, that's incorrect, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: That's incorrect yes, we know that now.  The question is, just for the benefit of the Committee, can I put to you what appears to be the reason why you thought it was the Amanzimtoti bomb at the time and he might have thought it was something else, and that is with reference to the bundle with which we are working, the Bhila Bundle 1 at page 41.  That is an affidavit in support of the application of the late Colonel Andy Taylor which he handed in to the TRC before his demise,  and in paragraph 3.1 he in fact says that
"Bhila was one of the co-accused in connection with the Amanzimtoti bomb."
I'm informed and please tell me whether this accords with your perception of the matter, that Mr Bhila was in fact part of the same unit as was Mr Andrew Zondo who was the person who was not only accused but also convicted and sentenced in the Amanzimtoti bomb and that there was a very strong suspicion among the members of the Security Branch in Durban that Bhila was in fact also involved in that incident and that that might be the explanation as to why Mr, or rather Colonel Andy Taylor referred to the Amanzimtoti bomb and probably conveyed that to you on the day when he gave you the order at the CR Swart square.  Now that is perhaps theoretical but insofar as an explanation can be given for a reference to the Amanzimtoti bomb, would you disagree with the one which I have suggested to you or would you be in agreement that on the probabilities that is what might have happened?

FRANK MCCARTER: I'm in agreement with that, Mr Chairman.  The fact - what I can recall was the Andrew Zondo trial, the Toti bomber as such, was separate to the other trial of Ramlakan Dudu Buthelezi and company but they were linked to some degree but the trials were separate and that's how I recall it and that is why I've written here, something to do with the connection with the Toti bomb.

MR VISSER: Yes, and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: In his application he says that he was one of the accused in the Toti bomb, doesn't he Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Yes, that appears to be incorrect, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And that he was told, asked to kill him by somebody other than Mr Taylor.