Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

YASMINE SOOKA: You are saying that you overcame your own moral scruples on the basis that this product would be to the advantage of the black population, and in a sense without any form of consent you found that this was legitimate.  As a scientist was that a rational explanation, or justifiable reason?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Chairman, I can answer you now, unequivocally no.  I made a mistake. If you take me back to that time period, and remember in the time period in 1982 I was sitting in the hospital when the bomb exploded in Church Street.  I was there helping people full of blood, black people also coming in.  So maybe we were not thinking rationally, but I might have taken the same decision again.  But today I know it was wrong.  You cannot, you cannot prescribe to people that type of thing.  It is not justifiable.

UNKNOWN: Dr Goosen can we just not pass this issue about mistake.  When people say it was a mistake and these conversations took place, can you be more precise about that.  Because was it a mistake or was it a belief system, a culture that prevailed at the time that said you know, black people were not of equal standing that without their consent we should be producing substances to control and to make a decision, in a sense?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes, Chairperson, yes. ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: What I am trying to say is, let's not, we are using words it's not that easy to say it was just a mistake.

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Chairperson yes.  I hear what you are saying and that is exactly right.  That is what we did.  We felt in the environment we were operating in that we had the right to decide what was good for other people.
 You ask me, do I think I am a racist?  No, of course not.  I am not a racist.  I have many black friends.  I grew up on the farm, I played with the black people, everything.  It wasn't a thing which was directed against hating blacks or whatever.  But that was the environment, that was the climate that was created around us by the propaganda of the politicians and everyone of the day.  And this is one thing which I, as a scientist, feel very strongly about, and it grieves me.  
 And I have - we can get later to that, but in a period of time I had very tough times handling these things emotionally, without any assistance from anyone.  Psychologically very, very tough.  I had nervous breakdown on all of these issues and many things.  We suffered as scientists a lot I can assure you, and I cannot make this good.
 But what grieves me is that the people that created this climate is now denying it.  Like if you listen to a person like Minister Pik Botha you would have sworn he was born an ANC member.  He never said total onslaught, Communism - that's the enemy. Never.  He denies.  And this is what grieves me Mr Chairman, that they are ducking their responsibility for what they did.  Because I have no doubt in my mind that those are the responsible people that created the climate. And they supplied the money, Mr Chairman to do this.

YASMINE SOOKA: May I follow that up with one question because part of what we are supposed to do is explore motives and perspectives.  You talk on the one hand of being in a war psychosis mood, and you talk about the total onslaught, but really the bottom line would be to control the numbers of black people, and it's the end product of that is really to maintain the supremacy of a white minority group in the country at the time.  So from your perspective which, I mean at the end of the day what was the real reason for creating this kind of product?  Would it be the control of the population rate to maintain the status quo?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes Madam.  I of course can't conclude but my belief I can express, and that was my belief.  I once sat down with Wouter and we had many discussions.  He visited me at home many times and we sat down and we had a beer and we ate biscuits etc.  He was very fond of a particular type of biscuit.  I asked Dr Basson, "Wouter, why are you involved in this?  Why are you involved in this.  Because you are not getting for yourself a company because I've got the company, I've got the BMW, I've got the three storey house".  I had it, that luxury lifestyle.  Everyone thinks Goosen, my goodness he is great.  That's true.  And I asked him why Wouter are you doing this?  And he said, I've got one daughter and one day, and he said we don't really have any doubt that the black people will take over the country, but one day when the black people take over the country and my daughter asks me, Daddy what did you do to prevent this, my conscience would be clean.  And I must admit that was the psychosis which prevailed.  And you can blame me for that, I have played my part in it.  That is true, and I am sorry about it.  But I was not guilty alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Chaskalson.

MR CHASKALSON: To stay on the issue of fertility research, I presume that one would have had to dispense of, in targeting a certain segment of the population, in this case the black members of the country, you would not be able to develop a specific drug, you would have to find a mechanism to get it to them, is that correct?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Mr Chairman, no.  The mechanism to get to it, to the people, was the last thing you would research.  You would first research the drug and the method and then depending on what that would predict for you the circumstances if it would be viable to give it in the beer or in the maize or in the vaccinations, it would decide now depending on what type of drug you have of course.
 And by the way Mr Chairman this project was known, personally I know, up to the level of the Surgeon-General, because the Surgeon-General visited us, both General Nieuwoudt and General Knobel taking over for it.  When General Nieuwoudt was leaving the service, retiring, he visited us on a Saturday morning and when walking out of it, and we have explained all these projects to them, we had project meetings in fact, explained it to them, this anti-fertility project and the progress and the possibilities etc, and when they walked out he said, Nieuwoudt in the presence of General Knobel, this is the most important project for the country.  That is the truth.

MR CHASKALSON: Will it be possible to find a drug or a vaccine which would only be effective on pigmented people?