Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-25

OUPA KHOTLE: As I've explained the one who was responsible for the task force was the late comrade Showa.  He is the one who gave out the order that the farmers be attacked.  Let me explain briefly around that point.  The farmers, we must understand they are part or they form part or they were BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
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part of the oppressors at that time because the farmers you could actually define them they are twofold.  They can be police reservists or army reservists.  They are the people who were always ready for call-ups either in the army or in the police force, they were always alert to come and do national service. That is a known fact, it's not a secret.  And Mr Fourie who was murdered or rather attacked, I don't think he was attacked because he was Mr Fourie or he did something to somebody, he was attacked because he formed part of oppression towards the Africans.  To testify on this I want to bring to the attention of the Commission that in most cases you will find that the farmers have a lot of artilleries or firearms and you would ask yourselves if they are referred to as soft targets or civilians, what about these firearms that you find in their houses, because you cannot have firearms that you cannot use in your house.  
	So I want to explain that Mr Fourie was attacked as he formed part of the oppression.  He could be an army reservist or police reservist.  You must also recall that in what ever country where there is a political struggle the one who is in power if the country's economy is not stable would not be able to govern for a long time.  So the farmers by forming agricultural production did a lot of participation to support the government of oppression with everything they can so that it goes forward and oppresses the Africans because they have been oppressed for more than 300 years and the National Party you would observe that from 1948 up till now it is because of their agricultural unions that supported it and some of them which are foreign to this country.

MR MTHEMBU: But Sir you do not know if Mr Showa gave an
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order to these four comrades they attack Mr Fourie's farm?

OUPA KHOTLE: It is - what I can say is that it is true that he was responsible for the task force.  I was responsible for APLA.  However, I was a link to can recruit which was not an offence because we were engaged in a liberation struggle.  If when Africans have been identified it is then that I can assist where he will request me.  If he asks me to be part of giving the political situation in our country to can identify the Africans who will be proper for this task force unit, we must remember that he was also a representative of task force.  He was my senior.  He was amongst the seniors within the high command.  If he requested me to offer a certain assistance on weapon handling or give firearms I would not refuse, I would just comply.  However, I would not interfere with the duties of that unit that was under his command.  So I would like to say the order was given out by Mr Showa because he was responsible for these task force operations.

JUDGE WILSON: But you don't know, you assume that from what I have just heard you saying?  You assume that the order was given by Showa, do you personally know that he did so?

OUPA KHOTLE: I personally know he issued the order.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you there?

OUPA KHOTLE: I was present when he issued the order.

JUDGE WILSON: You were present when this order ...(intervention)

OUPA KHOTLE: Exactly.

JUDGE WILSON: .... to kill White farmers was given.

OUPA KHOTLE: To kill the oppressors.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were there supporting him?
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OUPA KHOTLE: I was part of the struggle.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Khotle what Mr Chair is asking you is if you were present when an order to attack the farm of Mr Fourie was given, or you are merely assuming that the order would have been given by Showa because he was in charge of the task force operations ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: He says that he was there, he was present, he says he was there he was present when the order was given, isn't that what he said to a question by Judge Wilson?

MR MTHEMBU: With due respect Sir, (...indistinct) impression as far as Judge Wilson is - the Chairperson has pursued it further, with due respect.

JUDGE MGOEPE: The question was - if you want to clarify it frame it in such a way that it is able to clarify.  There is no point in repeating exactly the same question which Judge Wilson asked and to which we have got an answer.

OUPA KHOTLE: May I be given the opportunity to briefly explain.  The important thing here is that I was present when Comrade Showa gave out the order that the farmers be attacked.  Whether he gave out the order that Mr Fourie be attacked, I don't know about that.  But what I do know is that as there is this unit and unit has got a commander it is clear that the authority to single out a target are in the unit commanders hands who controls this unit at that time and at that place.  What I want to say in brief, it is not a secret that I was present when he gave out this order because I already knew that we were engaged in a struggle against oppression.  We are in a struggle for liberation.  We are in a struggle which is not based on colour because we didn't define it by means of Blacks or Whites. However, some BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
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of them were enemies against the PAC liberation struggle.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you then explain please to me why was the motto "Kill a farmer, Kill a Boer, Kill a Settler", "One Settler, One Bullet" if it wasn't directed against Whites?  Weren't the Whites the settlers?

OUPA KHOTLE: The first point is that one settler slogan has never been a principal a policy of PAC, however, one settler one bullet slogan we can refer it to as a soccer player in the field.  When he grabs the ball being known that he is the person who can do tricks with the ball maybe he can refer to as Disco, which can be related to the manner in which he plays soccer.  Here we are referring to one settler one bullet slogan because originally as we look back as the President, as the former President Comrade Clarence Makwetu explained that the source, the main cause of this struggle is that when you are engaged in a fight there is no way you can say you feel sympathy for this enemy.  One settler one bullet slogan, it is a slogan and a slogan goes along with time, you must understand that.  It is not a policy or a principle of PAC. It  was a slogan because the Africans were engaged in an armed struggle and we must recall that it is not the Africans who decided to engage in an armed struggle, it was the government of the oppressors who forced the Africans to engage in an armed struggle.  This is what happened on the 21 March 1960 where the Boers government banned our organisations, ANC and PAC and then the organisations were forced into exile.  This is where our organisations asked themselves if now we are to fight for our freedom in peace or - then these Boers shoot us, shoot at us then we must retaliate in the same manner.  It is not for us to be blamed that there was MK or APLA or an armed
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struggle.  It is their problem.  They are to blame that there was such a thing.  
	We can remember in 1950's there were strikes, those were peaceful way so fighting.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Khotle is there anything further that you wish to add?