Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson.  I'd like to apologise on that ground because I thought - I was listening to the questioning and I thought maybe as to the relevance to the application in terms of the deceased and his identity.

CHAIRPERSON: We have conceded to your request to call another witness to give evidence in the terms that you have already indicated to this Committee, even though we feel that that kind of evidence is not sufficiently relevant to enable us to decide whether Mr Cele qualifies for amnesty in terms of the Act that is governing this Committee.  We will however, allow you to call that witness and lead such evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, ...(no English interpretation)
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: Could the witness come forward please.

MR MOLOHLANYE: My witness is Bongani Richard Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he aware that you are going to call him as a witness? Mr Molohlanye, is he aware that you are going to call him, was he made aware of the fact that he was going to be called in as a witness?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, he was here yesterday to give us evidence and then he's also here today because he's implicated in the same matter.  I'm not too sure whether he was here to visit or to give any evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I'm asking is because when you call Mr Bongani Khumalo, he is a person who has become implicated during these proceedings.  You are aware of that?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I am aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we were not aware that Mr Khumalo would be implicated, we have just become aware that he is now an implicated person and in terms of our Act, any implicated person must be notified of these proceedings and must be made aware of his right to legal representation, to the extent that he wants to oppose insofar as his implication is concerned.
	I am asking this question because during the viva voce evidence of Mr Roy Cele in particular, Mr Bongani Khumalo was implicated.  So we have to notify him in terms of Section 30, since he has recently become an implicated during the viva voce evidence of Mr Cele.  
	However, if you have consulted with him and he will be giving evidence in support of Mr Cele's application and he consents to giving such evidence, we will not prevent you from calling Mr Khumalo as Mr Cele's witness.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  Without wasting much of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to just advise him of his rights and make sure that he understands?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I would like to take an adjournment of about five minutes so that I can consult with Mr Khumalo and make sure that he understands what is about to happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we take an adjournment, I note that Ms Thabethe is about to say something or is very eager to say something to the Committee, and I will afford her an opportunity to do so.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  I don't object to an adjournment being taken, but I would just like to put on record that Mr Bongani Khumalo was initially an applicant in this matter, but he withdrew his application and subsequently he was notified as an implicated person, in terms of Section 19(4).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  In that case, I don't think we would actually waste Mr Molohlanye's time.  It would appear that you have consulted and you had consulted with the person who was fully privy of what his rights were and he has decided not to exercise his rights insofar as his implication is concerned, and he's prepared to come and give evidence in support of Mr Cele's application.  We will allow him to come up and testify in Mr Cele's application.

MR MOLOHLANYE: I thank you, Madam Chair.  You may call Mr Bongani Khumalo to the stand, Mr Molohlanye.

MR MALAN: May I just make sure, Mr Molohlanye.  You did consult with Khumalo?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I did consult with Mr Khumalo yesterday, but I'd like to get five minutes adjournment, on a second thought, that I should thoroughly speak to him and make sure that he understands why he was notified to be here.

MR MALAN: No, that's not the question.  Did you consult with him on the basis of calling him, of potentially calling him as a witness?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No, I did not.  They told that to me yesterday, that he was here and he was their witness, that is the accused, and I therefore ...(indistinct) that if there is a need I will call him to give evidence in this.

MR MALAN: My question is, did you consult with Mr Khumalo himself?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No, not formally so.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean "not formally", what kind of consultation is that?  It's either there is a consultation or there is no consultation.  I thought when you started addressing us, when I wanted to find out the import of the witness you intended calling, you indicated that you had consulted with that witness yesterday.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I spoke to Mr Bongani yesterday, that this is the position and then if I necessarily need him to - that's how far I consulted with him.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, you have not consulted with Mr Khumalo, as a witness you intend to use in support of Mr Cele's application.  Isn't that the position?  You are confusing us.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I'll accept, Your Worship, and I apologise to that.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact you don't know whether he will actually consent to being a witness.  You still have to take instructions from him and find out whether he is prepared to be a witness in these applications, is it not so?

MR MOLOHLANYE: That's so.  I presumed to the positive, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So it was incorrect of you to intimate to this Committee what the import of his evidence will be because you haven't consulted.

MR MOLOHLANYE: As I said earlier, I'll apologise to the Honourable Committee on this.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you must never give an indication to something that you don't know.  You don't know what would be the import of his evidence.  And what already now appears in our record is incorrect, because you still haven't had a proper consultation with Mr Khumalo.  You simply intimated that he might be used.  As what and to what extent, those issues were not canvassed with him.
	We take a very dim view of counsel not doing his work properly, Mr Molohlanye.  We are going to afford you a five minute adjournment.  If there should be any need for you to need to consult with Mr Khumalo further, please give an indication by advising our secretary, Ms Galane, if you need more time.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minute adjournment
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Molohlanye, we adjourned to enable you to take instructions from Mr Khumalo, and to also consult with the applicants concerned, about the possibility of calling further witnesses in support of their applications.  What is the position now?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  I have consulted with the witness and the applicants.  I hereby withdraw the earlier request I made to call Bongani Khumalo as a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: So you close your case?

MR MOLOHLANYE: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Molohlanye.  Ms Thabethe, what is the position?  Do you propose to call any witnesses on behalf of the objectors?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  I do wish to call two witnesses, Madam Chair, based on the fact that the victims have indicated that they are opposing the application and based on the fact that I've put some facts to the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we are aware of that.  Will proceed to call your first witness.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  My first witness will be Zodwa Cele.

EMILY ZODWA CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Honourable Chair.
	Ms Cele, can you tell the Committee how you are related to Amos Cele.

MS E Z CELE: My father.

MS THABETHE: Was Amos Cele an IFP member?