Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, if we might kick off with Gen Steyn?  I see it's quarter to but if we can go as far as we can?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR VISSER: He is ready to give evidence, he does not have an objection to taking the oath, Chairperson, and he prefers to give his evidence in Afrikaans.  His statement has been handed to you before as Exhibit C, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have that thank you.

GEN STEYN: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: General Steyn, you previously testified in the Ndwandwe case?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And I see in your statement you also testified in the kwaMashu 3 case?  No, I don't think you testified there, I think that's my mistake, but you also testified in the Cry Freedom Amnesty Application?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: You have Exhibit A in front of you, have you read it?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Is there anything in Exhibit A which you don't agree with?

GEN STEYN: No.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the correctness of Exhibit A and you ask that it be incorporated into your amnesty application as well as also the evidence and documentation to which Exhibit A refers?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Your amnesty application is in the Quarry Road bundle, page 1 to page 15, is that correct?  Do you also confirm the correctness of the contents of that?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: As far as the Quarry Road incident is concerned, at the time of the drafting of your amnesty application you said that you could not recall at that stage what all the facts were and that you were intending to give the facts later?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Can you explain to the Committee what the circumstances were which gave rise to that in the first place to the fact that you decided to apply for amnesty and what the circumstances were when you applied and went to the attorney?  Just generally?  This was in 1996?

GEN STEYN: Chairperson, we didn't have all the facts in respect of all our applications so we had to make some enquiries about various aspects of our applications.

MR WEBSTER: Sorry Chairperson if he could just raise his voice a bit please?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

GEN STEYN: Chairperson, we had to make certain enquiries about our applications and in the process we consulted with each other and our legal representatives.

MR VISSER: Were many people involved?

GEN STEYN: In the various applications, some applications more than others.

MR VISSER: And how long before the cut off date of December was that?

GEN STEYN: We had to work under tremendous pressure, very shortly before the final date for the cut off date for the applications, it was in the last days and weeks before the expiry of the cut off date and we put in a lot of work and then we handed it in.

MR VISSER: You're applying for amnesty for multiple activities?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: And was it possible for you to make all the necessary enquiries before the cut off date?

GEN STEYN: No it wasn't possible, I couldn't do it all and not in respect of the applications.

MR VISSER: Now Mr Steyn, you're requesting amnesty for this application as a result of your complicity in this.  Could you please tell us from page 2, paragraph 1, perhaps we've dealt with 1, perhaps you can start with paragraph 2 and just explain to the Committee during 1986 ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Visser, this is of Exhibit C now?

MR VISSER: This is Exhibit C Chairperson, thank you.
	In 1986 you arrived in Durban?

GEN STEYN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And during this incident you were second in charge of the division, is this Port Natal?

GEN STEYN: The security branch of Port Natal.

MR VISSER: Please continue with paragraph 3?

GEN STEYN: Chairperson, during August of 1986 an incident took place in which the wife of an IFP councillor was killed and three of the children were injured in the same incident.  An AK-47 rifle and hand grenade had been used.

MR VISSER: Yes, we've already referred to the ANC submissions, continue?

GEN STEYN: Sometime afterwards the previous witness, Botha, told me that one of his informers had reported to him that a certain Brian Mamela and his group had been responsible for this attack.

MR VISSER: Yes?

GEN STEYN: Mamela, according to the information at that stage, was a trained MK member and leader of a group.  I also knew that Director Botha had given this information to the Terrorist Unit of Col Taylor for further investigation and work and that would have included follow up action by informers with a view to tracing these people.
	During September in 1986 I was told by Brig Botha, Director Botha, to come to kwaMashu in respect of certain information regarding the presence of armed ANC members in kwaMashu.  I went there and met Botha and Capt van Sittert there and I was told by these officers that Mamela and his group, according to their information, were somewhere in kwaMashu and that they were armed.

MR VISSER: Now in those years there was general reference to people who had committed acts of terror, they were called terrorists?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: And in your view was it only Brian Mamela who was a terrorist or what was the position regarding his group?

GEN STEYN: No, when we referred to Brian Mamela and his group who had committed certain acts according to our information we were referring to people who operated along with him and who had probably also had been trained as he had been.

MR VISSER: So in your view these were terrorists?

GEN STEYN: Yes.  I was informed that the information was they were planning to launch another attack that very same night on a councillor's home.

MR VISSER: A Black councillor?

GEN STEYN: Yes.  Van Sittert further told me that apart from this, this group of Mamela's had also been responsible for an act of terror just a couple of days previously.  I can't remember the exact circumstances of this act of terror.  I was also told by Van Sittert that the house where this group were at that stage had been kept under observation and that the people doing this observation had been in radio contact with Van Sittert and the idea was that the people doing the observation should make radio contact as soon as those people in the Mamela group left their shelter and move away.
	The plan was also not to act against them at that very moment because it might compromise an informer.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean?

GEN STEYN: That meant that if we swooped on that group in that area the inference could be drawn that somebody in that area or very close had furnished this information about the presence of these people.

CHAIRPERSON: That's a strange statement, kwaMashu's such a large place with thousands of people, how can you believe that you'd be compromising an informer?

MR VISSER: I think you can reveal that information to the Committee as to where the informer was.

GEN STEYN: Chairperson, the informers were in that area very close to that home.

CHAIRPERSON: The reaction unit was also present when I arrived at the scene at kwaMashu Police Station and if I remember correctly, I also summoned Col Taylor later and I think it would have been him who told Mr Wasserman to go to kwaMashu Police Station.

MR VISSER: Now General, just to avoid any confusion, at that stage what was your rank?

GEN STEYN: I was a Colonel.

MR VISSER: Second in charge of the Port Natal division?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: At the scene at kwaMashu you were the senior officer?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now there were two units, what would you call the sections of the police, the one would be the security branch and the other one the task force?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now would it be correct to say that you were in charge in an overarching way?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Who was in charge of the action on the ground?
Was that you?