Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MR KNIGHT: When you got to Elliot what did you do?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When we got to Elliot we went to the police station there at Elliot. When we got to that police station there were white people there. I don't know whether they were resident there or from Transkei. I do not know who they were. Bra Mos then gave them a report about what happened.

MR KNIGHT: The people that you are referring to, although you do not recall their names or identities was your understanding that they were policemen?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes they were policemen. Yes they were policemen.

MR KNIGHT: If I can refer you to page 62 of the paginated record of proceedings there is a statement which is called A19 which starts with your name and describes you as a special constable in the Transkei police. Would you like to comment on this document? Did you draft this document?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The statement I never gave that statement in Transkei. The only statement they came it was one at Piet Retief. I don't know about such statement. I don't know anything.

MR KNIGHT: So after this incident and after your return to Elliot where Captain Mos went and reported to the other white policemen at the police station did you immediately proceed back to Pretoria or did you leave the following day? How long after that incident did you go back to Vlakplaas?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I don't know how long it took us. It could have been days, one day. I do not remember any longer how long it took us. As to how many days I do not remember any longer.

MR KNIGHT: If I can refer you to page 78 of this statement that was given to Inspector Jordaan. I just want to ask you some questions relating to this statement. Is it correct that this statement was taken whilst you were in detention in Piet Retief prison?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes correct. The statement was taken from me at Piet Retief.

MR KNIGHT: Did he use an interpreter when he minuted the statement from you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No there was no interpreter I talked out of myself.

MR KNIGHT: And do you understand, can you read Afrikaans?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I have problems in Afrikaans. I prefer English.

MR KNIGHT: Perhaps before I deal with this question of the statement. When you went back to Vlakplaas when was the first time you knew that you were coming down to Umtata to stand trial with regard to the death of Ndondo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I was at Piet Retief at the time when I got there the one who took the statement from me told me that there is this case. That is how I got to hear that I was supposed to appear.

MR KNIGHT: Did you ever appear in Umtata? You must have appeared if you had gone down to Umtata?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I went to the court at Umtata while I was still working. That was a long time back while I was still working. And Vlakplaas was still in existence. I did go there.

MR KNIGHT: But now was that for the purpose of the - was it related to the murder of Mr Ndondo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is what I went there for at Umtata.

MR KNIGHT: And was the matter merely postponed? Was it remanded to another date or did it proceed?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was postponed remanded for another day.

MR KNIGHT: Now can you recall what happened at Vlakplaas at that time? And I am referring now specifically to Annexure F this being the change of your identity.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you came to that point when you spoke to the police officer who took the statement from you, you said that you talked directly to the officer. There was no interpreter.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I do not understand well.

CHAIRPERSON: Jordaan came to you to take a statement.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that you did not make use of an interpreter.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I was talking myself. I was talking. There was no interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: What language did you use?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I was talking in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Is it true that Colonel de Kock came to you whilst at Vlakplaas and advised you that your name must be changed?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes correct.

MR KNIGHT: Was it ever told to you who had given the orders for that or was it merely said to you that this is how it is going to happen?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I was not told. I was simply told that I must change my name and surname.

MR KNIGHT: And after having chosen the name you did what happened? Were you then provided with a new identity book and police certificate?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I got a new ID, the one shown in front of us all now. The police force number I got only later. It took some time before I could get it.

MR KNIGHT: If we can just return back to the appearances at court at the Umtata Supreme Court. And I want to refer you to the statement given to Inspector Jordaan at page 78 of the minutes half way down the page. It is and I will just read it into the record
"Captain de Kock told me that during the court proceedings I should present myself as Captain Mos. Thus it was Dandala and Mos who stood trial. This decision was made because the real Captain Mos had lived in the Transkei and had family there."
Now the question I want to ask you is, is this entirely correct that you had to impersonate Captain Mos in the Umtata Supreme Court? Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No it is not the truth.

MR KNIGHT: Did you ever - how do you think this would have come into the statement? Do you think it was as a result of a misunderstanding with Inspector Jordaan?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Right there the statement does not connect. It is not the right thing. I disagree with that section.

MR KNIGHT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer? Isn't the question that is being asked is whether was this as a result of a misunderstanding between you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It may have happened that because Bra Mos was the one who had, who was charged and he was the one who stayed in this area. And it could happen that his parents may be in danger and it was then that I would then appear in court as Mos.

CHAIRPERSON: You had appeared in court as Bra Mos or as Shabalala or as Mbuso?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Here at Transkei I appeared at court. I think I was Shabalala. (...indistinct) my calling I was not even called - I was not even called to the dock. I was simply told that my case would not be heard that day.

CHAIRPERSON: You were just advised whilst outside court that your case was being postponed?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: There was the head quarters and then I moved from there to court. It was just over the road. When I got there I just stood there around with others I never got to the witness box or anything like that. Somebody came to me and told me: "Ah your case is being postponed." And then I left. Took the car and went to Barkley East.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went to court you went to court as Mbuso Enock Shabalala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I must agree because at the time I was still under that identity. I was not Mbuso Shabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: You seem to hesitate.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I don't doubt. I was Enock Mbuso Shabalala. That was a fact.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now you also state just down the page still on page 78 of the record
"On that day Captain de Kock was present in Umtata and he was busy organising the case."
Now to your recollection was Captain de Kock at Umtata?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: This section again de Kock never came here to Umtata. It was only me and Bra Mos who came to Umtata. de Kock did not come to Umtata. It must have been a mistake. He did not come.

MR KNIGHT: Now for all intents and purposes after you were provided with the new identity you never heard of this matter again?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No, after that I never got to hear about this matter.