Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, if you will recall you stopped me and said that we have to shorten the DCC's involvement because the investigation in front of you is not about the DCC.  I have made a statement to my attorney, where all these incidents are mentioned and he led me according to that statement.

MR WESSELS: When did you go to the DCC?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Two weeks after I was released from Section 29 detention, I went on leave for two weeks and there was then a process of two or three weeks where they recruited me, or the transfer from the one to the other.

MR WESSELS: When was this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, I cannot tell you.  I was released five days before Mr Mandela's release under Section 29, I think two weeks later I left on leave and approximately two weeks later I returned and I had the meeting with Witkop Badenhorst and then I joined the Military Intelligence.

MR WESSELS: Was this then in the middle of February 1989?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I think so.

MR WESSELS: In other words you started at DCC at the end of February 1990.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I assume so, yes.  I cannot specifically recall, but it was shortly after I returned from leave.  There was a period of time where things had to be established and I could then be applied.

MR WESSELS: And up until that date you say you were a member of the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes I was a member of the CCB up until my release under Section 29 and then the attorneys who acted on behalf of the CCB, told me that the CCB was going to be disbanded and I accepted it.

MR WESSELS: Then I'm just wondering why you say in your amnesty application on page 205 in bundle A, in paragraph (b) that
"In the South African Defence Force for the relevant period 1988 to 1989, either as a member or employed for specific purposes."

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is the relevant period.

MR WESSELS: What is the relevant period?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The period that covers the amnesty application, then I went over to DCC.  Are you trying to say that I did not belong to the DCC?

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, you went over to the DCC at the end of February, my questions is why is it restricted to 1989?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No Sir, because this amnesty application is about the CCB's involvement.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wessels is getting at is, if you mention just the period 1988 to 1989 in paragraph 8(b), why make any mention at all of DKI or DCC in 8(a), if that is not relevant to the period relating to the incidents?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot give an explanation, no.  I do not know.

MR WESSELS: You do not know who paid in the money at the attorneys for the procedures?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Are you talking about the court applications or after my release?

MR WESSELS: Yes.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot say who paid it in, the attorneys contacted my father and said that the organisation provided funds and that he had to act as the front and he had to bring the application.

MR WESSELS: I've got no further questions at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

FERDINAND BARNARD: I would just like to say that these incidents, the Dullah Omar and Desmond Tutu incidents, this is what I applied for and it's the relevant period between 1988 and '89, while I was a member of the CCB.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the ...(indistinct - no microphone) of the DCC has got nothing to do with those two incidents.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I understand that, yes.

MR WESSELS: Can I just comment on that comment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR WESSELS: These incidents did not take place in 1988, but it took place in 1989.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, yes.

MR WESSELS: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions arising out of the Panel's questions?  Mr Coetzee, I was going to ask you about re-examination after Mr Barnard's possible recall, but if you have any at this stage, in case he's not recalled after Mr Wessels has seen the documents, do you have any re-examination?

MR COETZEE: Sir, I do not have re-examination at this stage, but however I will reserve that right, depending on what comes out.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Barnard, that then concludes your testimony, however you heard that Mr Wessels will be referring to certain documents and that he has reserved the right to put further questions to you.  So it may well be that you'll be recalled again to answer questions put to you, but if that doesn't happen then this is the end of your evidence.  Thank you.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I understand that, thank you Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED