Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes, what happened was that I refused to make any statements in terms of Section 29 and then the security police brought in Binneman to me and he then told me about his wife and children who didn't have any food on the outside and other men and their wives who were suffering because they were being held under Section 29 and at that point we had already been under Section 29 for a month and he then asked me to make a statement and he also showed certain things to me in terms of making the statement in such and such a way.  I believe that that discussion between me and him is definitely on tape somewhere in the security police, I'm sure that it must be available somewhere.

MR STEENKAMP: What you are saying now in terms of being told what to say in your statement, unless I understood you incorrectly, you never disclosed to the Committee - it doesn't appear anywhere in your amnesty application.  Don't you think that it would have been important to bring this fact to the attention of the Committee?

MR MOSTERT: If I might just intervene here, I would like to state it pertinently that I asked the applicant about it and he said that he had received his instructions from Hennie Binneman to protect the others and that is why he made the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're free to ask questions about the circumstances of Minister Binneman's statement if you wish.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  A final statement that I want to put to you is that today you've had the opportunity and also when you completed your Amnesty Application, you had the opportunity to play open cards with the Committee, is that so?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I did.

MR STEENKAMP: And the fact that certain information is not contained within your Amnesty Application, what is the reason for that?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I've conveyed all the information today which is at my disposal.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moloi do you have any questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman, just briefly.
	Mr Lottering, did you draw any distinction between the politics and racism at the time?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, politics was my objective.  In the South African context it was coincidental that the black people and white people were struggling with each other for years.  If it was the English who were threatening the freedom of my people I would have acted in exactly the same way towards them and fought against them.

MR MOLOI: Besides now your desire to have a Volkstaat was there any other motivation upon which you acted?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.

MR MOLOI: In which respects does the confession you made to the Magistrate differ from the actuality about which you're testifying today?  Which aspects of the confession are incorrect in other words?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I went through the entire document along with my attorney and we tried in as much as possible to highlight the facts which were incorrect.

MR MOLOI: Yes, can you highlight those aspects which are not correct?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: It would be problematic to go through the entire statement again.

MS GCABASHE: I actually want to ask him questions on that that might assist him, so we'll hear the answers from him if that's okay with you.  Let me assist you, we should go right to the beginning of that confession of yours, what you're calling the Section 29 hearing.  You go through a whole religious background, the grounding of your beliefs, now just start there, you haven't said anything to us at all today about how religion influenced your thinking.  You talk about the black people, white people, purity, your natural enemies, now is that correct, is that incorrect?  Just to start off, you know, just to assist you in answering Mr Moloi's question.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Regarding enmity between white people and black people, this is a reality throughout the world.  My quest for a Volkstaat was the primary manner in which we could solve the struggle between white people and black people.  If white people and black people are kept separately and can then contact each other naturally then it would work peacefully but as long as white and black are forced to integrate, their will be war and that is the reality all of the world, it has nothing to do with racism - it simply indicates upon the differences which are too much such there are differences between French people and English people and that they live in different countries.

MS GCABASHE: Now, you know I refer you specifically to page 50 of that confession, just to assist you because you haven't answered my question.  You talk about line 6, "it is also stated that David blushed and the only nation" etc etc.  You talk about white people can, black people can - kaffirs - actually are referred to here - "en 'n kaffir kan nie bloos nie".  Then you go on to talk about the pure whites who came along with Jan van Riebeek.  The simple question is, how much of this is still part of what you believe in, I mean how much of this is incorrect, how much of it is correct?  What do you believe in here?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: The issue of religion as I have explained it here is approximately the same way that I feel today, that from the time of Adam and Eve there have been different racial groups on earth and these races have never managed to live peacefully with one another and that is a reality that we cannot lose sight of.  Never in my life have I treated black people badly because they were black, the way that I became involved in politics was when my nation was being attacked chiefly by black people, by the ANC and so forth and I could not longer envisage a future for my nation if things continued in that way.

MS GCABASHE: Now if this process is part of a reconciliation process, the amnesty process is part of that grand process, why are you applying for amnesty?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: In order to go home.  However, as a result of many electoral promises and agreements which are being achieved by the ANC with the Boerevolk, I can see that we have a much better chance at a peaceful existence as what we had underneath the NP government.

MR MOLOI: Thank you.  Do I understand you correctly, your religious views have not changed till today.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Not drastically.

MR MOLOI: Your political activism, was it mainly induced by your religious considerations?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOLOI: As a matter of fact you - that was the main objective, your religious beliefs - just a minute - so the political actions were just a vehicle to what's reaching your ultimate objective?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No religion definitely played a part of it but at the end of the day or at that stage I could not envisage that my nation would survive in the political dispensation.

MR MOLOI: You engaged therefore in politics for an objective of saving your purist race?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No it's about my nation's survival.

MR MOLOI: The robbery, you say you were ordered to commit robbery in order to raise funds for the organisation?  Purely that?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: It was also to attempt at addressing our current expenses.

MR MOLOI: It had nothing with personal interest or personal financial commitments?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No as I have said I would not have resigned from a good job in order to become a robber.