Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

CASE NO: CT/00653

YASMINE SOOKA: Could we call Thembinkosi Ngqele to the stand please.    Thembinkosi, do you want to put on the earphones?  Can you hear me - you are going to give your evidence in Xhosa, is that correct?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes, that's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you stand up please so that Mr Potgieter can administer the Oath?
THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much - you may be seated.

YASMINE SOOKA: We would like to thank you for coming to give evidence to the others.  I want you to relax and the evidence that you are going to give, give that without any hesitation, so that the mission of this Commission could carry on, so that you and Sipho and the others can reconcile and that would be only possible if you speak here.
The thing that is going to help us a lot is the fact that you should try to tell us all the truths that we didn't hear on that day when there was a court hearing.  Do we understand each other?

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: I would like you to tell us where you were born, give us your background and before you give us details about what happened because we want you to tell us what happened on this day of the march, but we would like you to give us background.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: I am Thembinkosi Steven Ngqele and I was born here in Kimberley.  I attended school here at the  Masesa Lower Primary School and then I went to Zengisa Higher Primary.  I worked at Serelitso where I started Std 6 - I started Std 6 in Serelitso.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I'm sorry the interpreter cannot interpret.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: I was taken by the police at home.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Please come back on the day when we want to talk about - we want to we want to know what really happened during that time and then you can go on and state how were you arrested and what happened when you were arrested.

THEMBINKOSI STEVEN NGQELE: It was on the 21st and we were coming from school - there was a march where we were going to the Bophuthatswana offices from school.   We were coming from school.  We warned the people at the Arena.  We met a crowd - we were coming out from school at Serelitso School -  the part that we played - we were marshals, most of us we were belonging to the Youth League - we marched to town.
During that period there was memoranda which were handed over to the Consul.  Three of them were handed to the Consul.  When I was looking down I saw a grenade going past my feet and I mentioned that I saw the grenade.  So many people were injured during this incident and the others were taken to the offices.  We helped with the transportation of some of the people and one of my friends was killed in the bombing.
Thereafter we went to the location -  we stayed for a short period.  On the 1st and the 2nd day - on the 3rd of June the police came in to my place.  It was very early in the morning.  I think it was 2 am.  They surrounded the house - when they knocked at the door my mother opened and they stated that they wanted to search the house - they also stated that I threw a grenade during the march and amongst the marchers.
I was taken with my brother and we were put in front.  After they searched they went out - they searched on the premises  but they didn't  get what they wanted.  Their truck was just next to our house.  Terror Kapanda was amongst them and I think it was adjudant  Starke - they came back and Terror pointed at me and said we want to go along with you.
They took me along and when I was about to go - when I was about to go out the gate they took me to the Golf car - it was a Citi Golf  which was just next to - to their truck.  They took me to their offices and they wanted me to give details of what happened.
I stated that I didn't know anything about the grenade but they insisted that there is somebody who is 111 and 222 and they said I know about those passwords and slogans.  I denied knowing anything about this.  They did not tell me anything and did not insisted that I should say anything about the Trust Bank incident but they asked me about some things that I didn't know about.
On the first day I was able to tolerate what they were doing but the second day there was another police commissioner who came.  He brought a letter and then it was stated that I was detained under the Security Act for 10 days, I was the accused.  The letter was written to me and they said I must sign but I refused.  Mr  [indistinct]   he is now a Lieutenant he is at the SP, he was present, they also pressurised me to sign,  I did.
On the second day I was taken to the Transvaal Road Police Station.  They released me at  eight  and they interrogated me again.  They asked me do I know who is responsible for what happened - I said I don't know anything about that.  The adjutant was the leader of the interrogators - he came time and again and continued with the interrogation.  They asked me if I wanted to be released.  I said, obviously I do and then he said if I want to  then I must speak the truth.  I should state that I have seen people who have thrown the grenade. I said they must tell me who those people are and then he said no, their names should not be known but they stated that I am expected to state that I know those people.
On another day they came again and continued with their interrogation.  This went on for days and then they said to me can you see that the ANC does not care about you because they don't even want anybody to defend you.  They get lawyers for other people but they don't for you and then this went on for two weeks and I think it was the first week of July Captain Rossouw came to me and Major van der Kolf they came with this old man Ngomasa and they said that he is going to be my interpreter because I couldn't understand their language so he was going to help me because I was Xhosa-speaking.
So they said that - they learned that I and Sipho were responsible for that -  I denied it again.  I was taken to the Du Toitspan Road.  I was taken to the upper offices and he said if I don't speak he is going to throw me out.  I still said I don't know anything.
The second day when they took me again - they took me again to the Transvaal Road Police Station.  They also showed me where they threw Arthur Mabija and they said one of  your comrades was thrown out of this window, we are going to do the same with you.  But I insisted that I didn't know anything.
There was a Sergeant, he was also in the branch - he was hitting me and boxing me, Lawrence Mbatha was also arrested and then he said - the sergeant said Lawrence has given them  the information, so I must just comply.   I said it is up to him but I don't know anything.  They also read what was supposed to have been stated by the people whom they said they are my Comrades.
They read it through again and then they insisted that I should agree and admit that I know what is written there but I still refused.  At the end through the intimidation and when they were trying to show me how they are  going to throw me out of the window, I was afraid.  At the end I signed because I feared for my life.
They said then they are going to release me but at the end didn't - there were extensions of the ten day detention but I had visitors - the mother - my mother was the only visitor but they didn't give her what was really happening about me.   Then they told me that I would be going to court and I was supposed to state everything that was signed there and then they said I must say what I have signed for.
Rossouw came to fetch me, he was the Captain and on my way to the court he stated, he drilled me to say what I was supposed to say in court..  It was a hell of a  indoctrination.  In court when I tried to state what happened, he tried to prohibit me from doing so.