Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-03

CHAIRPERSON: And who would those be?

UNKNOWN: Chair, my understanding is that, for example, you have Mr Richard Steyl here next, and I would say that Mr Steyl certainly is in a much better position to answer.

UNKNOWN: Dr Steyn, just one more question, I mean certainly as a person in charge of research and development you would rely very heavily on certain procurements in terms of reverse engineering which was a kind of speciality?

UNKNOWN: We were at the time - I'm sorry, Chair, yes, obviously, but self-sufficiency was for us a very important aspect at the time so to be as independent as we could be.

MS PATTA: Dr Steyn, say for example you needed something for the research and development programme, but you could not get through self-sufficiency, it had to be brought here from abroad, how would you go about doing that, who would you go to and say, I need this stuff and, you know, what was the procedure?

UNKNOWN: If something like that occurred, we would have specialist divisions for procurement in Armscor and I would ask my colleagues to assist me in the procurement.

MS PATTA: You would go to them and say I need X and they would do what, I mean, when would the stuff come, if you could just give us a little bit more detail?

UNKNOWN: I would raise the requirement to my procurement colleagues and they would devise the plan and they would try and procure the equipment or whatever for us.

UNKNOWN: As a Physicist, can you perhaps tell us what you know about Ammonium Perchlorate?

UNKNOWN: Yes, let me be clear that I'm a Physicist and therefor my training is not in the chemist, but I know that Ammonium Perchlorate is an oxydite, that's why I know.

UNKNOWN: Was it ever to you knowledge as a Physicist, used in a South African rocket programme?

UNKNOWN: Ammonium Perchlorate was used in propellants, yes.

UNKNOWN: And what was the nature of research around that, or would you not have been involved in that?

UNKNOWN: I am sorry, Chair, I am not aware of the detail of that because I was overall accountable for these matters, but I expect that with Somchem people would be able to answer that in much more detail than I can.

UNKNOWN: But as a person who was in charge of the kind of development, you would have known what the kind of priorities overall?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Chair.

UNKNOWN: Can you just tell us, in the mid 80's what they were?

UNKNOWN: The priorities for research and development, I'm afraid that that would take quite a lot of reflection, can I maybe take a bit of time to do that, I frankly don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say some time, do you mean - how long a time.

UNKNOWN: Chair, I'm going to have to reconstruct in my mind as far as I can remember the priorities.  I can give you a speculative answer now, if that's what you want, but I'm under oath and I do not wish to state speculation for fact.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's fair enough.  Now, I didn't get the evidence on where you were at the time of the disaster.  Were you in Armscor?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I was in Armscor, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You were in Armscor.  Now, you will be aware that the Star Newspaper carried a number of articles around the Helderberg disaster.

UNKNOWN: I'm aware of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Some of them were of a nature that protect in a  great deal Armscor, you recall that?

UNKNOWN: I do, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Although there was legal recourse, it would appear against the Star Newspaper, Armscor pressured as I understand, to take the Star Newspaper to the Press Counsel.  I'm not criticising, but is that your recollection of events?

UNKNOWN: It is indeed, sir, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now one of the claims that were made, and I just want to know whether you are aware of this, was that after the crash, South African Airways and the Military immediately dispatched aircraft to Mauritius and in that aircraft some - quite a number of Armscor personnel were on board.  Do you know if this is so, and they stayed at the Meridian Hotel in Mauritius?

UNKNOWN: I don't know all the facts that you say.  What I do know is that Armscor sent a small team of scientists from the Institute for Maritime Technology to help in the official search.  Armscor was requested by the South African Airways.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was this so, why was this necessary, it had nothing to do with the Armscor, there was no official link as far as could be seen between Armscor and SAA?

UNKNOWN: Chair, the Institute for Maritime Technology had a capability, I'm sure they still have, I haven't been there for a long time, to do the mathematics of search.  If one searches for something at sea one needs quite sophisticated mathematics to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying, are you suggesting that South African Airways didn't have their own capability?

UNKNOWN: I wouldn't know, Chair.  I know about the IMT capability and about their underwater detection capability, that part I know, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you know why it was speculated, I want to put it at that lowest level, that the job of the Armscor people was to search for drums?

UNKNOWN: I don't, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that that was the instruction?

UNKNOWN: Definitely not, I don't know that that was the instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, APC, I do not know off-hand what it is, but it's the team that you referred to by Ms Terreblanche, the Ammonium Perchlorate.  Now, would that be a dangerous substance in your expert opinion?

UNKNOWN: I'm not an expert on the chemicals of propulsion, but I would say, yes, it is a repellent or it is one of the composition parts of a propellant.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it some sort of fuel, is it liquid or,

UNKNOWN: I don't know, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't.  Is it combustible, is it a sort or thing that might cause fire?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I would say so.

CHAIRPERSON: And it would not be the sort of thing that you would normally expect would be conveyed and transported in an aircraft?

UNKNOWN: I would not, no, but again, sir I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Put it this way, if you were to take the decision, even with your limited knowledge of the components of this chemical, were you to be asked to convey it in an aircraft, you would certainly not choose a passenger airliner to convey that sort of ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Definitely not, if you asked me personally.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm doing that. You see, I'm asking because the theory is, and this is where Armscor comes in, that what was being conveyed in that passenger airliner was APC and that it created because of its combustible components, a fire, the nature of which caused the disaster in the form that took place.  Now, what did - it says if, let's just accept that that is the theory, what it says therefor, is that if the fire started in circumstances where the pilot detected it, the easiest thing for the pilot to do, would be either to land at the nearest airfield or to return to base or where they had taken from.  Would you agree with that?

UNKNOWN: I'm afraid, Chair, it is a subject of which I know nothing.  I would be speculating if I would make an opinion on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask another question, if APC was one of the ingredients in your research, that you were to import from elsewhere to the extent that it would be used in developing the armourments ...(indistinct) by South Africa, it would have been in contravention of the arms embargo which was in place at the time.  Would you agree with that proposition?