Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, it was because of the meeting that was held by the community, it was decided that the SDU must be formed.  Because before people came to attack Moleleki and the residents decided that an SDU must be formed.

MR MADASA: So before the SDU was formed in Moleleki the ANC Youth League was an informal structure which patrolled that area?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was patrolling Chairperson, before the formation of the SDU's.

MR MADASA: And then when a meeting was convened both structures were amalgamated, that is the ANC Youth League and SDU became one?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: An instruction was that the SDU must be formed, whether you are a member of the ANC, of the PAC but the question attained was to form the SDU and that is why this meeting was called.
	We were talking of the SDU not as individual members of the ANC, PAC but during the formation we knew that the PAC was there and the ANC was there.

MR MADASA: And then when that SDU was formed the ANC Youth League ceased to exist as a patrolling structure?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It did not patrol all by itself, it was patrolling with the SDU, all of us were patrolling.

MR MOTATA: Were you one, did you become one structure?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Thank you Chairperson, that is correct.

MR MOTATA: What I understand by that, you were accounting to one commander?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, Ntjebe was the commander.

MR MADASA: Where did the members of the SDU come from, that is at Moleleki?  Were you people who came from the township or from where?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Moleleki was a new section, people who moved in there were from Mandela Park, others came from Polla Park, others were renting back rooms in different sections, now they came to Moleleki to form a section and then they formed an SDU.

MR MADASA: Now what caused the division between you and the ANC Youth League afterwards?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you get to that question, would you still remember the names of persons, of ANC Youth League members who were patrolling Moleleki when you arrived there?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I remember some of them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you give us those names please?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Thabo is one of them, T-H-A-B-O.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give us their surnames if you can recall them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know their surnames, these were just nicknames.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  It's Thabo, Lucky, Vips, he has since died.

CHAIRPERSON: Right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Those are the people I remember Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  These are the persons who were patrolling Moleleki when you arrived?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: After the decision to form the SDU in Moleleki, can you recall the names of the ANC Youth League who joined the SDU patrols after October 1992?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The names that I've mentioned were part of the SDU, specifically those three that I've given you were members of the SDU.  I found them patrolling the area with members of the ANC Youth League until they amalgamated into the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So the same persons later patrolled with the SDU's?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Were any of the applicants for amnesty, your co-applicants, were any of them members of the Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Two of them were members of the ANC Youth League, they remained behind, they did not leave us.  Yes, Chairperson, two of them were members of the ANC Youth League.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Who are they?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Shongwe and the second one is Lefu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well.  Thank you, you may continue.

MR MADASA: Now tell us, what caused the division between you and the Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I have already indicated that I was patrolling at night because I was working.  Sometimes members of the SDU would be patrolling during the day and people would be looting Spaza shops, they taxis would be shot at, if you were a Zulu speaking person you would be assaulted and they would be saying that you are a member of the IFP.  You had this Spaza shop and you would be expected to provide food.
	Now the commander was trying to bring order to this situation and that is where the division started.  They removed themselves from us, they said they will stand all by themselves as the ANC Youth League and the SDU must also stand on its feet.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did they want to separate themselves from the SDU's?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Last year when the ANC submitted to the TRC, it stated clearly that within the SDU there were criminal elements and it's true, even in Moleleki that situation reigned.
	Some of them felt they were not going to stand for that and they would hit the targets and then they would loot these targets.  Now they decided to stand all by themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, the complaint really was that notwithstanding the patrols by the SDU's, there were people who were being harassed because they happened to speak Zulu, others were being robbed and there was crime, is that right?  And the commander was concerned about this level of crime?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, were the ANC Youth League members implicated in this crime, to your knowledge?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Those who were involved in this crime hid behind the organisation's name.

CHAIRPERSON: So, did you suspect that the ANC Youth League members were responsible for this crime?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I have evidence that some of them were involved.  A truck that was heading for Maputo was looted and these members unloaded the truck, looted the truck.  We asked then why were they doing that and they said it was one of the targets.  These people were uncontrollable, they were not under control.

CHAIRPERSON: So your answer to my question then is that some of the ANC Youth League members, as far as you were concerned, were involved in a crime, in criminal activities?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Which had nothing to do with the protection of the community?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was pure crime.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And when you confronted them as to why they had done this, they would say that: "Well, this was part of the target and that's why we had to rob them"?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: When we asked them they said this was a target.  In the first point, you do not just go into someone's Spaza shop and say it is a target.  They killed a certain member of the Communist Party called Majosi because he had his Spaza shop.  They killed him with two of his uncles and he was a member of the same community, they killed him.

MR MALAN: Who killed him, you say: "they killed him", who killed him?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was killed by the Youth League.

MR MALAN: But which members of the Youth League?  Surely it wasn't all ten million members of the Youth League.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Part of the Youth League called Mr Majosi.

MR MALAN: You said that you had evidence that some of them were involved in criminal activities, did you have names?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I don't have their names Sir, but some of the witnesses here will reveal their names.  The commander and some of the members of the SDU went to them to investigate, to ask them why they were involved in the Majosi issue and they said they thought he was a member of Nkatha.  Maybe some of them, when they give evidence they will testify to that effect.

MR MALAN: So you didn't have any names?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: As a result of these activities of the ANC Youth League members, was any decision taken about to deal with the problem because I heard you say that they were uncontrollable?