Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

MR MADASA: Yes we'll argue whether the evidence that he has given is sufficient to be the basis for an admission to murder or competent verdicts thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Or any crimes for that matter.

MR MALAN: May I then just follow up with the applicant the issue of motive in order to see to what extent we can be of assistance and I accept your ....[inaudible] to argue on the ...[inaudible].   Who is taking up my microphone every time?
	Mr de Ru I would like to ask you, would you then just explain in your own words what was the political motive for the committing of these murders?  I am asking this and I think that the legal representatives would have said to you that you can apply for amnesty for any crime for which there is a political motive in committing this offence.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: As I've already explained to you I believed that these people were trained MK members, they were ANC political activists and that their main purpose or goal was to arm themselves and others with the smuggling and trading of firearms in order to make the black neighbourhoods ungovernable in such a way that the Government of the day would be brought or forced to it's knees;  but the actions on that day did not have anything to do with that.

MR MALAN: On the day you wanted to arrest them for robbery?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No, it would be in terms of the whole investigation and the information that we received at that stage as well as what would follow out of that.

MR MALAN: Can I then ask you, the Police had a lot of power in '93, why didn't you arrest them to investigate?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I could have done that yes but I felt that if we caught them in the act where everybody was together, it would have been easier to then get to the heart of the matter if we ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: But in your own evidence to get everyone together it could have most been three because the driver of the vehicle would have been Fouche, your man?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.  I would like to mention that there was also another person who was not mentioned and who was not in the vehicle who later appeared and was attacked earlier on that evening and that is why he was not there.

MR MALAN: Your motive was initially to arrest them, you gave evidence that you did not want to kill them?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No.

MR MALAN: But the offence for which you are applying amnesty for is for murder?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR MALAN: And the murder came, if I understand you, was in that you fired a shot and thus giving a command and you said that it was a mistake?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is true, it was the fact that I gave that warning shot that led to the people who were killed in the vehicle.

MR MALAN: So at the stage when you fired that shot that lead to the death of the people there was no political motive to kill them?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.   Thank you Mr Madasa.  Sorry if you have any re-examination you're welcome to Mr Madasa.

MR MADASA: Not at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Although the representative of the TRC, the evidence leader, normally asks questions last I understand that Mr Steenkamp wants to ask questions on behalf of the victims and it was for that reason that he proposed asking his questions now.  Do either of you gentlemen have any objection to that?

MR COETZEE: I have no objection.

MR JOUBERT: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, thank you for your indulgence.
	Mr de Ru can I just mention it to you that my instruction from the victims is in this case that they oppose the application in that there was no political motive for your action or in your application, do you understand that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I do understand that.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I then just ask you, were you a member of any political organisation or party?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No, I was an employee of the state.

MR STEENKAMP: Do I understand you correctly if you say that you had no political views?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Except for the National Party and in the nature of my work we supported the Government of the day which was the National Party.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'm referring to page 1 of the big thick bundle, paragraph 7.  If you could look at paragraph 7, do you have it in front of you?  Page 1, Mr Chairman.
	I see that you say that it is not applicable.  Are you saying now that you were a supporter of the National Party?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I am saying for the government because I worked for them.

MR STEENKAMP: Then to go back to your evidence in chief.  I would just like to ask you if you could just assist me if I'm wrong.  You said that Fouche said at one stage that the deceased were trained MK members and that it was confirmed by Mrs de Lange, is that correct?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: If you can just go back to the bundle, page 254.  Have you got the page in front of you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Is also correct, before I ask you this question, if I would ask you the way in which I understand your evidence that Elsa de Lange knew these deceased very well and had close contact with them, is that correct?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: If you look at paragraph 4, taking consideration what you just said I would like to read it to you
"They never talked about politics to me.  According to my knowledge they were also not involved in any political activities.  At that stage I supported the ANC and I talked to them about it.  Joseph, one of the deceased, said to me that he will not get involved in politics.  It was also right throughout the attitude of the other two."

MR STEENKAMP: Can you see that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I can.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you differ with what she says?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I do.

MR STEENKAMP: Because in your evidence in chief you said that she said that they were trained MK members.  Can you explain it?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No I cannot explain it.

MR STEENKAMP: If we look at page 253 Mr Chairman, it's page 253 of the bundle.   I'm sorry Mr Chairman, maybe we can start at page 252, just the previous page.
	Do you have the page?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: If I understand your evidence in chief you also said that Mr Fouche at various opportunities said to you that the deceased were trained MK members, is that correct?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: If we look at his affidavit and if we look at paragraph 3, I would like to read it to you
"The deceased were ANC supporters but I cannot say if they committed any political crimes.  They were crime orientated and that they wanted to get financial gain through these offences.  I cannot say that they were political activists."
Do you have any comment on that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I do not agree with what he is saying here.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you explain why both Mr Fouche and Mrs de Lange would lie in their affidavits?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No I cannot.

MR STEENKAMP: Then before I continue, can I ask you this?  You were in control of this operation, is that correct?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you have a briefing with the members before the operation where you explained to them who the deceased were and what they were?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I told them.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you say to them that they were trained MK members?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Some of the members I did tell them that and the others I just told they were very dangerous.

MR STEENKAMP: My question is did you say to them that these people were MK members?  First say that to me - MK is the military wing of the ANC?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you say to them that they were trained MK terrorists?