Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

MR KAHANOVITZ: These specific pages were removed from your diary, for what reason?

WOUTER J BASSON: For exactly the reason as is stated there.  Entries were made during a meeting or whatever and there were possibly people who signed next to the entries, that was taken out and placed on specific project files.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But why on those specific dates and not in respect of the other entries in your diary?

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't understand the question.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well if you needed to remove pages from your diary, so that you could have notes inserted into files, why did it happen on those specific dates?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I know that it must look very suspicious but I have not explanation for that.  I've answered numerous questions on that and that is what happened.  It my evidence that the pages were placed on files.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I think at the Webster Inquest you also said that sometimes you needed spare pieces of paper.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I really don't know, you can refer me to that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now I assume if you'd put those into files, then those files would have been available at the time of the Harms Commission.

WOUTER J BASSON: That is so, Chairperson, and it was my desire to be able to show the people those things, although the files were not available.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now whose fault was it that you couldn't get access - is your version you wanted to hand in the files at the Harms Commission, but they wouldn't give them to you?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson.  I've already testified what the whole situation was surrounding the files, they weren't available and also that the external files were available for me to hand over to the Harms Commission, to the officials.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but let's just talk about the internal files.  Is it your version you would have wanted to hand them over but people like Joe Verster prevented you from doing so?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, please don't misunderstand me, it wasn't a situation that I had control over the files and I wanted to hand them in.  The reason why I said I would have wanted to have shown them if they were available, was to explain exactly what you're asking me about now.  If those things were on Region 6 internal files.  I think I've also testified that there were forensic investigations on a particular page and I tried to explain that that related to an external activity and that that also had to be on file.  So I have nothing more that I can add to what I've already said.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But the page that was forensically analysed, in fact puts the lie to your version because the entry on the page that was forensically analysed contains entries to the following effect, something about "an alibi going to Zambia, don't use your pager."  Do you remember that entry?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.  I don't have it in front of me, but words to that effect, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What possible ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz, could you just explain this, "forensically analysed"?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.  The South African Police took the diary and sent it to the laboratory in Pretoria, a handwriting expert took the indentations on the page following and by that method managed to reconstruct one of the missing pages.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, that's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I was putting it to you that if you look at the reconstructed page, there appears to be no necessity whatsoever for an entry of that nature to be stuck into a file.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, if you can perhaps refer me to the exact wording, then it was necessary to place specific instructions on file for possible cross-reference later.  You see it as unnecessary but I regarded it as necessary to place it on file.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was one of the entries torn out relating to the Early Learning Centre?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I don't know, it was coincidence that it was on the same date.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now if you could then please go to page 1203, round about line 8.  You'll see Mr McNally asked you about whether you're willing to make certain files available to the Harms Commission and you said that you were going to hand in certain foreign project files, so as to prove that the projects that you were referring to were indeed foreign projects, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I accept what you say is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And the particular context was that you were aware that the Harms Commission was not entitled to investigate foreign projects, it fell outside of their terms of reference.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And certain foreign project files were indeed handed in to the Harms Commission.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.  I think that the purpose was - well the Harms Commission wanted to just ascertain that there were indeed external projects.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did all the foreign projects files of the CCB get handed over to the Harms Commission?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, no I don't know.  What I do know is that I was present.  The external projects in which I was involved and which fell under Region 6, where I was present, were shown to the officials.  I'm not aware of any other files or external files which were shown to the Commission.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can you remember how many projects you were referring to there?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I'm not sure, I think ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe I can just remind you of the names of some of the projects and that will help you.

WOUTER J BASSON: That will help.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Crawler.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Heritiek(?)?

WOUTER J BASSON: Possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maagd?

WOUTER J BASSON: Maagd was an internal project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe while we're going through these you can just tell us briefly what these projects concerned.  Crawler?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, that refers to an external project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Heritiek?

WOUTER J BASSON: Also an external project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maagd?

WOUTER J BASSON: Maagd was an internal project, I'm not sure to which person in Region 6 that refers.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But what was the nature of the project?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, if you will just give an opportunity then I will look it up in my documents and then I'll answer you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Maagd?

MR KAHANOVITZ: M-a-a-g-d.  It is a virgin in English.

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know if you made the photocopy out of the diary, but it's also an entry in the diary.  There's no date, it's simply an entry right at the back of the diary.  Chairperson, I don't see the project name here, so I can't actually help you in respect of this operation Maagd or virgin.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Sorry, before you carry on, you say your recollection is that it was an internal project but you can't remember what the nature of the project was?

WOUTER J BASSON: I think so, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Project Onus?  O-n-u-s.  Maybe I can help you there, it's a Chappie Maree project, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well what are the details of the project?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, you see the reason why I'm hesitant here is that there were project names for Blue Plans, of which you're aware, and then there were also project names relating to the Red Plans and I'm not sure whether it was Blue or Red.

CHAIRPERSON: But all Mr Kahanovitz is asking you is what you know about the project.  If you don't know anything, you don't know anything, if you know something, say so.

WOUTER J BASSON: I'm really just trying to assist, but I can't remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  Project Grease?

CHAIRPERSON: Like the country, Greece?

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, G-r-e-a-s-e.

WOUTER J BASSON: I'm not aware of such a project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Flee?  F-l-e-e.