Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-25

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Only the men, women didn't come?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: They were not there.

MR BERGER: Why not?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I believe women were not needed to go to Boipatong, they were not needed as well in our meeting, it was a secret that was going to be discussed, only men were allowed, women were not allowed to hear what men were discussing.

MR BERGER: But how did the women know not to come to the stadium that morning?  You see the night before we've heard when the siren went off all the women went to the stadium then they were told to go back to their rooms.  Now the day after the attack the siren goes off again and yet the women don't go to the stadium?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I believe the siren was calling the men who went to Boipatong for an attack.  Those who did not take part were not needed, I'm referring to women.

MR BERGER: And the women who didn't know what happened the night before because they were sent away from the stadium, they just knew when the siren went off the following day they're not needed again at the stadium?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: They would not come to the stadium.

MR BERGER: And at this meeting now where Mr Mkhize and Mr Xongo addressed the residents was Themba Khosa present?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: On the 18th he was present.

MR BERGER: And then at that meeting Mr Mkhize said all the goods which we have looted from Boipatong must now be burned, right?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And Mr Themba Khosa was present when he said that, correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And then all the men went back to their rooms and fetched the goods which they had stolen from Boipatong and brought them back to the stadium where they were burned, is that correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: They did not come with the goods to the stadium.  There are these big rubbish bins on the premises of Iscor, we threw those goods into those rubbish bins and they were burned.

MR BERGER: And after the goods were burned you then went back to the stadium?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No.

MR BERGER: What did you do after the goods were burned?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: We went to our different rooms.

MR BERGER: And the meeting was over?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So when did Themba Khosa say you must cooperate with the police?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It was a day after the attack.

MR BERGER: Before you left the stadium to go and burn your goods?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I've got a problem.

MR BERGER: You've got a problem because the interpretation is not coming through?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Just for the record you're speaking English again and understanding it?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, if you take your hand off that black box you'll be able to hear better.  If you block the signal then you can't hear.

MR BERGER: I'll repeat the question Mr Mkwanazi.  You see what we've established thus far is that there's this meeting in the stadium.  Mkhize is there, Damara Xongo is there, Themba Khosa is there and I take it Humphrey Nglovu is also there and at this meeting and in the presence of Mr Themba Khosa, Mr Mkhize and Mr Xongo give orders that the goods stolen from Boipatong must be burned.  Correct so far?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And then once those orders are given, the meeting breaks up, the men go back to their rooms, get the stolen loot, take them to the huge bins provided by Iscor and burn the loot?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And after that there's no more meeting?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: There were subsequent meetings, after this one there were others.

MR BERGER: So would it be correct to say that at a subsequent meeting Themba Khosa told you to co-operate with the police?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: But at the meeting where Themba Khosa was present when Mkhize and Xongo said burn the goods, at that meeting Themba Khosa did not say cooperate with the police, he just kept quiet and remained there, am I right?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Can you repeat your question please?

MR BERGER: At the meeting of the 18th when Themba Khosa was there with Mkhize, at that meeting Themba Khosa did not say cooperate with the police, at that meeting Themba Khosa just kept quiet.

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: He said many things, some I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: So Mkhize spoke and Themba Khosa also spoke at that meeting?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct, the two of them addressed the meeting.

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry Mr Berger.  Mr Mkwanazi, on what day did Themba Khosa say you should cooperate with the police?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It was on the 18th.

MR SIBANYONI: When were these subsequent meetings you are talking about, were they on the same day or sometime thereafter?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Days thereafter.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni.
	Mr Mkwanazi, you were asked by your counsel whether you were a victim of violence.  You said yes.  Do I understand it correctly from your statement at 141 that the violence you're referring to is an attack upon you in Sibokeng?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No, that is in Sharpeville.

MR BERGER: I just want to get your evidence accurate on the meeting of the 10th June, you remember you told the Committee this morning about a meeting you attended on the 10th June, a week before the attack?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Yes I do.

MR BERGER: You said at that meeting Mr Mkhize spoke and he said "we should get ready for an attack" but no date for the attack was set, is that correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: At that meeting on the 10th June he said, this is Mr Mkhize, he said that "we should take revenge against the people of Boipatong who killed us because they didn't want us in their township."  Is that what he said?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Do you walk with a limp?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Peens, you say you don't know him, you recall on Friday he was - there were two men standing at the bottom of the stage, there was one with white hair who is referred to as Rooikop and then there was another man standing next to him, darker in complexion than Rooikop, do you remember that?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I remember that.

MR BERGER: The darker one is Peens.  Are you saying that before Friday of last week you had never seen that man before?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: If you had been in a Casspir with him on the night of the attack you would have seen him, correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct but because we were not in Casspirs I did not see him.

MR BERGER: How do you know that Mr Nosenga was not in the hostel before the attack?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I believe I knew every member of Kwamadala Hostel who came from the township, there were not many of us.  I knew them, well except those who come from the homelands, there were many in number, I did not know some of them but some of them I did know.  On that day I did not see him.

MR BERGER: So when did Mr Nosenga come to the hostel?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: After the attack.

MR BERGER: The attack was on the 17th June, when did Mr Nosenga come to the hostel?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It might be somewhere around August.

MR BERGER: And you were arrested when?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I do not remember the month.

MR BERGER: Approximately?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It might be two months, three months even four months after the incident, it was quite some time before I was arrested.