Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-24

MSHANGA NGOBESE: As I was wearing the IFP t-shirt, I heard a person asking a general question at the feast, whether the people in the whole area are now "klovas".  I did not take note of this because there were many people say.  When we left this kraal, we saw people in the sugar cane field.  When these people uttered the same word, I realised that it was referred to us.  These people said, "Hey, you klovas."  My co-accused's uncle then suggested that we approach these people, to find out from them why they refer us to klovas.  Nimrod his uncle and myself then approached these people.  These people seemed to be very aggressive and because we do not have fighting sticks and they had some, they thought we could not do anything to them.  We injured these people.  Two of them got seriously injured and one even died.  The other one ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes because we haven't heard the translation yet at all of what he has been saying.

MSHANGA NGOBESE: We injured these people.

ME DE KLERK: Yes go ahead?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: The other one ran away.

ME DE KLERK: Yes you can go ahead what happened then?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: No we were leaving, we decided amongst the three of that, because we had already done something wrong, there would be no reason for us to stop now.  Because we all knew the person in the area who did not want to agree with us,  we decided to go to that person.  I am the one that knew that her husband was not there as he was working here in Durban.  There eldest son...

CHAIRPERSON: I think that, just hold it. I think that we have got to help this witness to give his story in a sequential way. He has some difficulty in that regard. Let me help you. First of all who is Nimrod?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Nimrod is my co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: And his uncle, what is his name?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: His uncle is Mtitiza.

CHAIRPERSON: Now these two chaps that were attacked by your group is it correct what the first applicant has said that you and the first applicant's uncle stabbed two of those people. One of whom fell and died. And the other ran away?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes that is true, although I had not realised then that as he was falling, he would die there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who stabbed him? Did you stab him or did the uncle of the accused number one?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I am the one who stabbed him.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were armed with a knife?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And accused number one's uncle was also armed with a knife?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the person that ran away did you stab him as well?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes, we also stabbed him.

CHAIRPERSON: So there were just two of them and there were five of you at the time?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I cannot say that all five of us had knives.

CHAIRPERSON: No I am saying that there were five of you at the time and there were two of them whom you attacked, is it?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.  I saw two people there.

CHAIRPERSON: After the man fell to the ground did you bother to go to him to see whether he was dying?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: It was difficult for me to have a look after he fell.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it difficult?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I do not think that there is a reason for me to look at a person I had already stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I see so you now left that scene and you were now on the main road going towards your house.

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The applicant number one's uncle was helping along the other gentleman with you who was drunk.

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the fifth person?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I was not acquainted so much to this other person who was with us, the one who was drunk.  The young boy's surname is Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: So was there at some stage when the uncle of the first applicant and his friend went in a different direction from where you went?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: They went to the other direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they go in the direction of the house of the uncle?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: (...no english translation)

CHAIRPERSON: And then where did you go to?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I took my direction with Nimrod and this Khumalo boy.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened along the road to your house?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: We went to Khumalo after we decided to go and attack there.  We decided to do this on our way, after we attacked the first two people.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that decided?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: As we were walking along.

CHAIRPERSON: What had you decided?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: We had decided to go and kill Zondiwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Zondiwe Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did she live?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: She was my neighbour.

CHAIRPERSON: Had she been a neighbour for a long time?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I cannot say for how long, because she arrived there after she got married.  I also once stayed here in Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. So you decided that you are going to kill her and so what did you do thereafter?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: After we parted with Mkitiza and the other person, we proceeded to Khumalo's house.  I knew then that their son was not present as he had gone to visit his father in Durban.  The only other family members present were the females, and we knew that those people would not pose any problems to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes carry on.

MSHANGA NGOBESE: We found that her son was not in.

CHAIRPERSON: And when the son was not there what happened?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I kicked the door and because there was moonlight, we saw her getting out of her bed.  She was wearing a night dress.  She then asked us what was wrong and we did not reply.  Mthembu just shot her.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MSHANGA NGOBESE: After he shot her, I then stabbed her.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you stab her?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I stabbed her randomly on her body.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I cannot remember how many times I stabbed her, but we intended to kill her.

CHAIRPERSON: There was nobody else in the room at the time?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: She was alone in that hut.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened after that?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: We thereafter left because we had completed what we intended doing.

CHAIRPERSON: Your companion, the applicant number one says that in the Mpumalanga area which was an IFP area there was no turmoil. Do you agree with that?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.  There was no turmoil because the area was an IFP stronghold.  We however realised that things would start going wrong because we had heard that the ANC branch was going to be opened in Sivukile School.  We knew that there would be trouble.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this area Vukile?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: This school is in Maphumulo.  I think it is a High School.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that far from your home?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: It is not very far from my place.  It is walking distance.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk is there anything else you want to clear up?

ME DE KLERK: Just another two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: Can you just explain to us what was your objective and justification for killing these people? That is now the first attack or the first incident and now the second one of Ms Khumalo?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I am a person that believes that unity can only be achieved when all belong to one political party.  There would be no unity if we split and that is why I thought that we could not allow other people to belong to another party that opposes ours.  That is why we took such decisions to eliminate.

CHAIRPERSON: By eliminate you mean kill?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.  I knew if we belonged to different parties we will kill each other.

ME DE KLERK: You have now been convicted of these murders. You have been in prison for quite a while. You had a lot of time to think about it. Is there anything you want to say to the families of these deceased and to the Commission about what you have done?