Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next applicant I intend calling is Sipho Buthelezi, but I ask for the matter to stand down for a short time.  I must still consult with him and just go through his affidavits.  Unfortunately he was not here yesterday.   He phoned my attorney and gave an explanation why he could not be here, but I see he is here today.
	I didn't say that I'm going to call him, I said Paulos Mbatha but I think I'll also call Paulos Mbatha probably later today, so he will still be called.  I ask for a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: How much?

MR STRYDOM: Twenty minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Strydom, is there any reason why you have not consulted with your client?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I've consulted with all my clients but just to make it more convenient for the Committee, I must go through their statements before they testify, just to get clarity on each and every aspect.
	I would submit that it shortens the proceedings if I can go through with the interpreter before he testifies, just before the witness testifies.  I've used all the other adjournments during lunch breaks to do consultations up till now, but things went a bit quicker today, so I'm in a bit of trouble at this stage so I will ask for a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you consulted?  You are now left with Sipho Buthelezi is it?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Sipho Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sibongeleni Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: Mkhize I must inform the Committee is not present.  I don't about his whereabouts, neither does my attorney.  He hasn't been present since the beginning of this session.  He's never been here, he never came.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, is the applicant who said will be dealt with at the close of things?

MR STRYDOM: I indicated at the beginning that he was not present, he never arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR STRYDOM: So the outstanding ones are Sipho Buthelezi, Mbatha and then Kubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, okay.  Have you consulted with Mr Mbatha on the statement?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, on a previous occasion but not today or yesterday, so I would like a short adjournment to consult with him as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Mr Kubeka?

MR STRYDOM: I've consulted with him on the last occasion, I took his statement.  That was during the course of these hearings but not again.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, okay.

MR STRYDOM: A request, can the matter stand down for lunch now till 2 o'clock and then I can consult with three of them then I don't need any further time for any consultations after that?  I can consult with the three of them together.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what we are considering.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, what we propose doing is to allow Mr Strydom to consult with the three remaining applicants and then we will take the lunch adjournment now and allow him to consult with all of the applicants and then we will resume after lunch, do you have any objection to that?

MR BERGER: No objection, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The time now is about twenty past twelve, should we come back at one thirty?  It would be one hour and ten minutes.

MR STRYDOM: Can I ask until a quarter to two because I'm going to consult with three people.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  Well if that is the case, what do you colleagues say to that request?

MR BERGER: We've got no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  Well the Committee recognises the fact that we have probably been starting too early and perhaps finishing somewhat late and that may well have prevented you from consulting with your clients.  We will adjourn a this stage, take lunch and we will come back at quarter to two.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And when we come back, we expect at least you to have consulted with all the remaining witnesses and could you also make enquiries if you can, as to what is happening to Xholiseni Sibongeleni Mkhize or ask your instructing attorney to make enquiries from the other co-applicants as to when last he was seen or what his position is.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  May I see all the legal representatives in the Committee shortly after this?  We will rise and come back at quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, what language are you going to speak?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Zulu.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, I didn't get the middle name.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Alfred.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

MR LAX: Sorry, Judge, we're not getting any translation in English.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Mr Buthelezi, you've signed a Form 1, Amnesty Application, on page 182, is that your signature?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: This document has been shown to you and translated to you, and you've indicated that there is one mistake which you want to rectify and that is contained in paragraph 11(b), is that correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: That paragraph deals with orders that were given inter alia it reads
"Orders were given on the 10th and 17th of June 1992."
Is that correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When did you move into the hostel for the first time?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: On the 17th of June 1992.

MR STRYDOM: Did you attend any meetings in the hostel prior to the 17th of June 1992?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: I also want to refer you to the annexure to this Form 1.  You've indicated to me that you will set out the reasons why you went to Boipatong, in your own words, is that correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: We will deal with that later.  First I want to show you page 185 and 186, that is the request for further particulars and your answers are on page 187, 188 and 189.  Do you confirm the answers given by you?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You've indicated to me that you want to add something to the answer contained under point 2.2?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: The question was, with reference to the two groups of attackers
"In which one you were"
And the answer you've given is:
"I cannot remember."

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You added to that
"I think Mkhize."
Is that what you wanted to add, Mkhize's group?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Then I want to refer you to your affidavit on page 190 and your signature on page 192.  Is that your signature?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: And do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: According to this affidavit, you arrived at the hostel on the date of the attack.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I arrived on that day of the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Before you moved into Kwamadala hostel, can you just elaborate on what happened in the townships and what motivated you to move to Kwamadala.