Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, the difficulty that one has with your evidence is that nobody's account did groups of marchers move past Shell House in King George Street on their way to Plein Street in the course of that incident.

MR NGOBESE: It's possible that that person is telling the truth.  It is possible that he is not telling the truth but according to my own recollection I had the impression that we were following a group ahead of us but it's possible that I'm mistaken.

MR TIPP: What happened to the man, you spoke about the white man who came to your group calling on you to stop, he was trying to stop you, he was the white man with the long hair, what became of him?

MR NGOBESE: I saw him as I was approaching and I went past him and thereafter I think I lost sight of him.  I think we left him behind.

MR TIPP: When you went past him were you still walking peacefully?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is correct, we were still walking peacefully but now I had seen at the time that people at the top of the building who had guns in their possession.

MR TIPP: Can you remember when you saw those people for the first time?

MR NGOBESE: I saw these people as we were crossing de Villiers Street.

MR TIPP: Where were you in de Villiers Street Mr Ngobese, were you on the northern side of de Villiers Street or the southern side when you saw them?

MR NGOBESE: I think I was at the north.

MR TIPP: Did you also see people down near Klein Street with firearms who were on the street level?

MR NGOBESE: No, I never saw that.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, I may have put the wrong street, I'm referring to Plein.

MR NGOBESE: Yes, Plein is the street just after de Villiers or before de Villiers.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, when the group coming down King George Street got to the intersection of de Villiers Street there was a pause in its movement, there was a lull whilst it stood there, do you recall that?

MR NGOBESE: Which group are you referring to?

MR TIPP: If yours was the front group at that stage then I'm referring to your group but I'm generally referring to all the marchers that came down King George Street from the direction of Noord Street.

MR NGOBESE: I don't remember such a pause in my own group.

MR TIPP: It's a question that was asked by the legal representatives of the ANC and directed to, among others, your own legal representatives.
	Mr Chairman, just for the record, paragraph 21 of the request, it's in bundle A, page 10, the following was put:
"That after the groups of marchers had converged at the intersection of King George and de Villiers Streets they paused for a short while and then charged forward moving south into the portion of King George Street directly adjacent to Shell House"
Perhaps that should be interpreted for the witness.

INTERPRETER: It has been.

MR TIPP: The reply was that the - that's at page 98 of the same bundle Mr Chairman
"The objectors deny that they charged forward and south in the direction of King George Street directly adjacent to Shell House, they merely marched in the direction of aforesaid.  Save as aforesaid, the contents of this paragraph is admitted"
Which we certainly construe to be an admission of the pause.  And that Mr Chairman, is of course also in the evidence of Von Eggedy which has been accepted as common cause.

MR P A VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, if I may just interject, this witness merely said that he doesn't remember it, that doesn't mean it didn't take place and that doesn't mean that he is giving evidence in conflict with what we have replied thereto.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he merely said: "I don't remember whether there was such a pause", as far as his group was concerned.

MR TIPP: Well that's correct Mr Chairman, in time we'll doubtless find out where that instruction came from.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure whether these matters ought not to be cleared up in some other tribunal rather than this one.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, you say you recall no pause at all, was there any reaction at all from your group or from your Induna who was close to you, to the arrival on the scene of the white man who was trying to stop you?

MR NGOBESE: As were singing, I don't remember anybody responding to this man.  We were surprised as to why he was blocking our way because the other ones had already gone past and at that time we were seeing the people with firearms, I don't remember the rest.

MR TIPP: Well what that white man has said is that his effort to stop the group was unsuccessful, it charged forward with people waving their weapons in the manner of people carrying out an attack, in the course of which he himself suffered a number of blows.

MR NGOBESE: If that happened, what I could just say is that it was not our intention to injure him or assault him or do him any harm because whilst we were approaching we were singing, we were happy and we do not understand as to why he was stopping us right in the vicinity of the people who had firearms and he did not stop the previous group or the group before us.

MR TIPP: Did you see the two armed and uniformed policemen who ran up to stop the group from moving forward?

MR NGOBESE: No, I did not.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I'm going to refer you to certain affidavits that you made which were filed in the course of the inquest proceedings and just ask you one or two questions about them to explain what you meant there.
	Mr Chairman, I expect that these have not been placed before you, may I hand them up.

CHAIRPERSON: What are they?

MR TIPP: They are affidavits made by Mr Ngobese.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR TIPP: They do form part of the inquest proceedings but I think not ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[indistinct] part of the record, I beg  your pardon.

MR TIPP: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please hand them in.

MR TIPP: There are copies for the Committee and the counsel for the Committee and for the witness.  Perhaps Mr ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: To which bundle do you want this appended?

MR TIPP: It would probably be convenient to go into bundle B at page 293 and following.

MR P A VAN WYK: Mr Chair, may I at this point in time just request Mr Tipp to perhaps refer to these affidavits with reference they had at the inquest.  We haven't got them in front of us, just to make it convenient for us to follow which specific affidavits he is referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, but for present purposes it will be bundle B, page 293 onwards.

MR P A VAN WYK: As the Honourable Chair pleases.

MR TIPP: For my learned friend's record, they first affidavit is A15, the second affidavit is A336, they were also given the series number K3B and K3C in the inquest proceedings.

MR P A VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, may I just enquire, are these the only affidavits of the same witness that you intend showing to the Committee because other statements were also made?

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, I may say that I had anticipated that when my learned friend let his witness, that he would have placed this material before the Committee.  There are other statements that relate to the witness going with members of the police to point out certain points.  We believe that they take the matter nowhere and we've not included them.  If the Committee felt that it might assist we would very gladly make copies as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, you've got before you copies of affidavits - and again for completeness Mr Chairman, I should point out that these are not the original signed affidavits because they were all retyped for the purpose of the inquest record but they've been accepted by everyone as properly attested.
	Mr Ngobese, do you recall from time to time making statements to members of the police in connection with the events at Shell House?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I do.

MR TIPP: ...[inaudible] and I think let me just ask you, you read English comfortably do you?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR TIPP: Do you read Afrikaans as well?

MR NGOBESE: No, I'm not able to.