Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

DR RANDERA: Thank you Boyisiwa.  If I can just ask a few questions. You have clearly and very explicitly described how the police behaved towards you, your family and this included Lucky of course but I'm a little confused, on the day that Lucky was killed, was he killed by the police or was he killed by the Khumalo Gang?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Lucky was shot by a boer but in the combi there was Khumalo's body guard.  The boers didn't know Lucky and the boer who shot Lucky did not know him but he was pointed out by Peter who was inside the combi, because they were together at school with Peter.  And the other boers were not stationed at the police station, they were staying at Khumalo's place.  At the time that he was lying on ground another boer by the name of Wessels came to shake their hands well done.

LILLIAN MAMPURA: So what you are saying is that there was a combi and there were police officers, what you refer to as the boers, in that vehicle but also included were these two people that you refer to as the body guards to Khumalo, is that what you're telling me?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: And they pointed your brother out and then the police shot him without any warning?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: NO they never fired any warning shot, they just aimed at him and they shot him from the back and their bullet went through his forehead.

LILLIAN MAMPURA: But you said your brother was running away?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes at that point he was trying to run away.

DR RANDERA: You say he was running away because he saw these people in this vehicle.

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes I think it's because he saw the boers because they used to come looking for him, so he knew that they were coming to look for him now, and the people who were standing with him are the ones who later told us that there was Peter inside the combi and Peter was always with Matiftif and Khumalo.

DR RANDERA: Now over the last few days, and I'm aware that we've just started listening to stories about Tokoza, we've heard about the police and we've heard about the Internal Stability Unit, we've heard about the self defence units, we've heard about hostel dwellers and the IFP, but this is the first time we're hearing about the Khumalo Gang, can you please tell us a little more about it?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: We knew Khumalo as a Zionist Church reverend.  As to how he got involved with the police we do not know, but the first time we heard of him was that Khumalo was looking for Mugabe because Mugabe had raped Khumalo's daughter, and as time went on we heard that Khumalo wanted to be supported by the students in order to look for Mugabe who had earlier assaulted his daughter.  And at that time Lucky was the SRC president and he wanted to call Lucky in order to mobilise other students and Khumalo told Lucky that they were going to the police if we want to look for Mugabe.  Lucky asked him as to why he wanted to involve the police in looking for Mugabe, then Lucky refused and said that he was not going to help Khumalo in that manner, and ever since then it seems as if Lucky and Khumalo became enemies.  That's when police started looking for Lucky and branding him a criminal as well as a terrorist who had gone to Lusaka.

DR RANDERA: The Reverend Khumalo, Mr Khumalo, lived in Tokoza as well?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes he stayed at  Mtagani Section in Tokoza.

DR RANDERA: And the Mugabe you are refer to, he was a young comrade in the area?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Mugabe was just a common thug, just a common criminal who used to murder people.

DR RANDERA: Buyisewe you were there in the house when the policeman shot your brother.

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes I was present.  At the time that they shot him my younger brother is the one who directly saw the whole thing taking place.  When we heard the gunshot it's only then that we went outside and we saw those combis, and when we ran towards my brother we found that he was still moving, he was still alive and that's when the boers closed in on us telling us not to come close to his body.

DR RANDERA: And your younger brother, has he made a statement to this effect?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: No he hasn't.

DR RANDERA: We'll be able to get a statement from him will we?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: I don't know whether he will be willing to make the statement.

DR RANDERA: But he told you everything, you didn't see everything as you've told us?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes he's the one who related the story to us.

DR RANDERA: Then there's Nhlanlha Zondi, who you say took photographs at the time and he died a year later, or did he die on the same day?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Nhlanlha took the photos on the 20th of that month then he died on the 24th of that same month.  That is even before we buried Lucky.  And according to the story we heard was that Nlhanlha was with Sam and the very same combis, that is Khumalo's Gang's combis were travelling through Skonyela Street and that is where he was shot.

DR RANDERA: And you say that Nlhanlha's parents actually have the photographs still is that right?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes they brought the photos yesterday.  I have them.

DR RANDERA: You have them? Will you be able to give them to us so that we can make copies and then give you back the originals?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes I will.  Even the cassettes of the funeral, because from the 23rd the boers used to come to our place, they would disturb the people who were trying to conduct a night vigil as well as the people who had come to pay their condolences.  There is another gentleman who said that I should not mention his name, he also had a video camera, we do have the cassettes.

DR RANDERA: Thank you. On one of the occasions when the police came to your house, you said earlier on they said that Lucky was dangerous because he went to Lusaka.  So had he left the country?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Lucky had never left the country.

DR RANDERA: So that was just an accusation that they made?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes it was just a bare accusation.

DR RANDERA: And my last two questions, how old was Lucky when he died?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: He was 20 years old.

DR RANDERA: Now you say in your statement that Lucky died or he was killed because he was a COSAS member but also somewhere else in the statement you mention that he was an active ANC member.

LILLIAN MAMPURA: That is true.  He was an active member of the ANC as from 1989.  At secondary school he was a member of COSAS, then when he proceeded with his education he became...(intervention)

DR RANDERA: And I'm sure you'd agree that the conflict at that time in 1993, 1992 was more between the ANC and other groupings.  Was he a member of the self defence unit?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes that is correct.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

MS SEROKI: Is Bishop Khumalo still alive and is he still staying at the very same place.

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes he is still staying there, he's still alive and I think he's at Penduka but I'm not very sure because some of the people were evicted from their houses and they ran to where we were because we are at Ntansimbi, we used to see them before because we used to see his son, Matiftif.

MS SEROKI: What about Peter, is he still alive?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes he's still alive and we do see him when it's time for pensions, that is old age pensions because we would like to get in touch with him, he's known by Khumalo.

MS SEROKI: Do you know where Khumalo is?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: They all stay at Penduka. He is staying at Ndagane Street.

CHAIRPERSON: If I could just ask you a few questions just to be absolutely clear on some of the statements that you have just made now.  You speak about Reverend Khumalo and his gang coming to your house.  Now these are things that happened in your presence?  You were at home when Khumalo came?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes that is true, I was always at home because I had a small baby.  The others were running away because the police were harassing them.