Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-10

MR DLAMINI: Take it easy, Mama.  This is very hard to believe.  Take it easy.  (Pause)  Okay, okay, okay, okay, that does not help them.  When you make the noise you are not helping.  Your noise is not helping them.  (Pause)  Mr Chairman, perhaps to give Mrs Rantie a chance to rest I would like to bring in Mr Mzosane at this stage.  Ma Rantie, I will come to you.  There are a few things in your statement that will be interesting for the audience to know, and also for the Commission to know, but I just want to give you rest.  It has been too much for you, and can I go to you, Mr Mzosane?

MR DLAMINI: Petros, according to your statement you live at No 5204 in Constantia township in Kroonstad.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: And you were born on the 3rd of April 1957.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: Your story is about your dismissal from the police force where you were working.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: Normally the Commission is not mandated to listen to labour relations issues, including unfair dismissals, wages, and any other disputes, but what makes the Commission be interested in your story is that your dismissal appears to have a link with the role that was played by the Three Million Gang, and also your commitment to investigate the offences committed by the Three Million Gang.  The Commission felt that if you are being victimised because you were doing the right thing, protecting the community, that cannot be left unchecked.  We don't say that the disciplinary inquiry was wrong.  All that we are saying is that we would like the Commission to investigate it further to establish whether your dismissal was not as a result of your role as a policeman, particularly trying to protect the community of Kroonstad.  Perhaps before I ask you to tell us your story can you tell us briefly about your family?  Are you married?

WITNESS:  I have a wife.  I have three kids.

MR DLAMINI: How old are your kids?

WITNESS:   The eldest is 15 years old, the one coming after the first one is five years old, and the third-born is one year eight months.

MR DLAMINI: Congratulations.  It's very rare where you find a father knowing the dates of births of their children.  Congratulations, Mr Mzosane.  And are they - the first two, are they at school already?

WITNESS:   The eldest is at school doing standard six.  The second one is still at creche, and the last-born is at home with the grandmother.

MR DLAMINI: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   Yes, my wife is a teacher.  She teaches on the farms around Kroonstad.

MR DLAMINI: I am sure she is carrying all the burden now that you are unemployed.  Did she manage to be here?

WITNESS:   That is correct, she is carrying the whole burden.

MR DLAMINI: Is she here?

WITNESS:   She's not here, she is at work.

MR DLAMINI:  I see.  Well, similarly on behalf of the Commission please convey our regards to her, and our respect to her for shouldering the family responsibilities.

WITNESS:   Thank you, Sir.

MR DLAMINI: Mr Mzosane, would you please tell us the circumstances leading to your dismissal.

WITNESS:   During  the riots and the unrest in 1990, as well as 1992, it so happened that the station commander, Captain Ramosita, came to me and he wanted to find out whether I was prepared to be a policeman or I wanted to be a houseman(?), which meant you were a community worker and not a policeman.  I asked him as to why he said that.  He said he could not understand whether I was a policeman or a community worker, because at the time that the community was dissatisfied with the services of the police, and when they were attacking the policemen's houses, I was able to walk freely amongst the members of the community.  Why weren't they attacking me?  He felt that I was colluding with the community against the police, and he told me that I had to choose between being a policeman and a community worker.  My reply to him was that I could not understand what he was saying.  Why people were not attacking me was totally unknown to me.  I did not know the reasons why they did not attack me, but according to me was that as a policeman I was not harassing them, terrorising them, or traumatising them in any way, I was just doing my job as a policeman.  And at that time the Three Million Gang was conducting a reign of terror in the residential areas.  At times when I was at work they used to tell me that I was lucky, because at times I would come across the people who were conducting the unrest, and some of them were carrying an assortment of weapons, and at times I would be able to arrest members of the ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 4) ... and arrest the perpetrators or the carriers of the weapons.  There was a certain prosecutor, Mr Pienaar.  He - she was the one who was conducting the Three Million Gang cases, and most of the time they would be released or acquitted.  And whenever they had to attend court there would be specific instructions from the station commander that when they were supposed to go to court they had to be transported in police vans to attend court.  And whenever they were coming from court they had to be taken in police vans back to wherever they came from.  And they would help them to be released from prison.  They were actually safeguarded by the police.  And I did not collude with what they were doing.  I was always questioning the police behaviour towards the Three Million Gang.  In most cases when they go to attend court it would be due to harassment of the members of the ANC or school kids, but the ANC members were not being escorted by the police whenever they had to attend court.  The station commander had an altercation with me and we always had problems.  I think that is why he was asking me as to whether I wanted to be a policeman or a community worker.  Then he said to me that he will see to it that I am expelled from the police force.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Mzosane.  I just want to check something that I missed here.  In your statement you said they used to tell you that you were lucky.  Did I hear you well?

WITNESS:   It's not clear, Sir.  The station commander said it's quite surprising as to why I wasn't being attacked by the members of the community.  Even when they were aggressive they would burn other policemen's houses, but not mine.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you.  And also in your statement it's mentioned here that you were involved in the investigation of Solomon's death from the Rantie family.  Is that right?

WITNESS:   I wasn't amongst the investigating team, but when this incident took place I didn't even know that such a thing had happened, that the Three Million Gang had killed Solomon.  But there was an instance where I met the Three Million Gang with an assortment of weapons.  I arrested them effectively and I confiscated the weapons.  I heard later on that they had killed Solomon.

MR DLAMINI: Were you in any way linked to the death of Solomon or the Three Million Gang?  I know that it's - my question is not clear.  Perhaps let me rephrase it.  Did you perhaps question afterwards the killing of Rantie's child, Solomon, and the investigation at work?  Did you perhaps question anybody about it?

WITNESS:   I never asked anyone about that, but when I heard that the Three Million Gang had killed him I was not surprised, because they were terrorising the community.  So I never asked as to why the killed him.  I knew they were killers.

MR DLAMINI: In your own opinion, as somebody who was working with the community, why was the Three Million Gang favoured by - apparently favoured by the authorities, namely the police force, as well as the prosecution?