Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR MOOSA: The fire that was made eventually, the pyre of wood that was used to burn Mr Kondile, where was the wood obtained from?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: The wood that was already there I do not know where that came from.  It's a forest area there is a great deal of wood available, it's very easy to get hold of wood.  It's no problem.

MR MOOSA: Well you were there, did the people actually get hold of the wood and make the fire at the time?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: There was wood and after this wood had been set alight with the body on top of it more wood was gathered and added throughout the night.

MR MOOSA: And do you recall what was used to re-light the fire?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I am not sure.  It could possibly have been petrol or diesel, but I cannot say exactly, I cannot recall exactly what it was.  I think it was.

MR GCABASHE: If - I am sorry Mr Moosa, if you could just clarify one small point.  The wooden pyre was already there when you arrived or the wood was - it was set up while you were there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: The wood was there but then it was piled up while we were there and then the body was placed on top of it.

MR GCABASHE: But then was it piled up before Kondile was shot or after he was shot?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think after he was shot.

MR MOOSA: I put it to you that it is convenient that you name Sergeant Otto, a person who is now deceased, as the one who shot Mr Kondile.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't know what you are suggesting.  Sergeant Otto was the man who was there and the man who shot him. That's all I can tell you.

MR MOOSA: There was a discussion between you and Mr Coetzee about the knock-out drops which were used to lace the drinks, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: Could you tell us about that discussion, what did Mr Coetzee actually tell you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Coetzee told me that he possessed - I cannot recall whether he said it was a sleeping drug or drops, but it boiled down to the fact that it would make a person fall asleep and he suggested that they ask the man if he wanted something to drink and that this sleeping drug would be added to the drink because he felt that it was better to shoot a person if he was asleep than to shoot him while he was still awake.

MR MOOSA: In fact you said in your evidence-in-chief that you thought it was a good idea that the person be shot while he is asleep, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that's correct.

MR MOOSA: That's not how it happened eventually, is it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that is exactly how it happened.

MR MOOSA: Now I am going to put it to you that the version of Mr Coetzee is far more probable than your version including about how the wood and tyres, on his version, for the pyre that was made were obtained, that it was brought by Mr Flemington and his men.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I don't agree.  I deny that those people were even there, or that there were such people.

MR MOOSA: I also put it to you that there was no need for you to eliminate Mr Kondile in this barbaric fashion that was done.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's your opinion.  At that stage I was convinced that this was the only way to solve the problem.

MR MOOSA: It is my instructions that there was nothing political about your actions at all and that in fact it goes way beyond the bounds of what is acceptable even in a war situation.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I do not agree with you....

MR MOOSA: Are you still wanting to say something?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, no.

MR MOOSA: There was a picnic atmosphere around the killing of Mr Kondile, drinks were had and you ate meat while the young man's body was burnt, is that right?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is not true.  We did braai meat before Mr Kondile was shot and we ate before he was shot.

MR MOOSA: And after he was shot what happened?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Some of this wood was taken and packed up, not very high, his body was placed on top of this and this was set alight if I recall correctly and then the other wood was added and this is how the fire was kept going throughout.

MR MOOSA: The truth of the situation is though that if Mr Kondile went on his knees and begged you not to kill him it would have not stopped any of you, you would have killed him.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: And today you want forgiveness and understanding for your actions.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well I personally believe that I cannot expect anything from somebody, I can only expect forgiveness from God.  I can apologise but I cannot expect anybody to forgive me.  I cannot expect that.

MR MOOSA: I finally put it to you Mr van Rensburg that your behaviour and the behaviour of your fellow policemen exceeded the bounds of decency and that you are not entitled to amnesty for these actions.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I have no comment on that.  I think that's for the Committee to decide, it's not in my hands.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOOSA

MR NYOKA: I will take literally less than two minutes Mr Chairperson.
	Mr van Rensburg when Mr du Plessis about the Kondile dilemma, in particular about that note, did you not ask him about its whereabouts because it was going to form the basis of a discussion between you, Mr van Rensburg and Mr Erasmus, did you not ask him where is this note?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I did not ask him.

MR NYOKA: Why not, because it was very essential?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I did not doubt Mr du Plessis' word regarding this note.  As far as I remember I did not ask him but he mentioned that he had left the note there because he did not want Mr Kondile to know that he had found out.

MR NYOKA: Maybe if you had asked him he could have read the message out of context and it could have been corrected that what he thought it meant did not mean it.  So it was essential to find out about this note before an ultimate decision was taken, don't you think so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, as I have already said I know Mr du Plessis was an experienced person.  He had done more during his career and he's taken more cases to court than anybody and I did not doubt his abilities regarding this matter.

MR NYOKA: And I correct to conclude that you acted out of faith or trust in Mr du Plessis because you had not seen the deceased, you never interrogated him, you never verified the truthfulness of the facts against him, not so, you just acted out of blind faith for Mr du Plessis, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I won't say in blind faith in Mr du Plessis.  That was why Mr Erasmus, if I remember correctly asked Mr du Plessis to put everything that he had told us also in writing, or rather to put it in writing for Erasmus to make the final decision.  I had no reason to doubt Mr du Plessis.

MR NYOKA: But you did not interrogate the man, you did not verify the facts on your own, so it was a one-sided thing?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I did not interrogate Mr Kondile.

MR NYOKA: How can you therefore justify your actions as being politically motivated when you did not even talk to the man to confirm, but take a very drastic action?  Would you argue with me if I say that your actions were criminally motivated rather than politically motivated?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I don't agree.  I can't believe that Mr du Plessis would have come to me with something so ludicrous.  That was such a serious case.