Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My evidence is well known,  my evidence is that I was not there when they were brought there forcibly and that I found the youths there.

MR KUNY: I will take that issue up with you later, but before I just want to deal with this question of the youths that lived at the back of your house and quite a lot of evidence has been given in this regard.  If I can just clarify certain aspects of this.
 Do you know how many youths at any one time, actually lived at the back of your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I wouldn't be able to give an exact figure at any given time.

MR KUNY: Did you know the nicknames of all of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not all, but I addressed them with their nicknames, those I knew.

MR KUNY: And did a youth have to get permission from you or from anyone else, if he wanted to stay at your place or sleep over night?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No.

MR KUNY: Were you at all familiar with the background of any of these youths, where they come from, where their parents were, whether they were attending school and so forth?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I wasn't. I didn't have personal and individual knowledge of them, but all those who came to seek specific help from me, I gave them.

MR KUNY: Would it be correct to say and I want to refer specifically to this time in December and January, December 1988 and January 1989.
 Would it be correct to say that you at that stage were the head of the household?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have always been the head of that household.  And I still am.

MR KUNY: Well, normally speaking, is it not correct that the male in the family, the man is the head of the family, but at that stage you were the head of that household?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You seriously wouldn't make that sort of statement to me.

MR KUNY: I am merely asking you a question.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have lived all my life without that head of a family.

MR KUNY: Well, now as the head of the family, you were responsible for keeping order in the household?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I have always been head of my family.

MR KUNY: Did you delegate that function of keeping order in the household to anyone or did you undertake that responsibility personally?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How does a head of a family delegate?

MR KUNY: Well, we know that there were quite a number of people staying at your house, in particular Mr Jerry Richardson moved to your house from the 9th of November 1988?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was a specific case.  Jerry Richardson's house had been involved in a shoot-out with the police.  And when he came out of prison, he had nowhere to stay and he came over.  Not that he was part and parcel of the youths who came to seek refuge with me.

MR KUNY: Yes, well, you did describe him in your evidence given at your trial, that he was the oldest person there?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, with the boys, he was not living in the house, he was with the boys at the back.

MR KUNY: And he was also the coach?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he had been the coach those years when they had their Football team.

MR KUNY: Would it be correct to say that he played a more prominent role amongst the boys being the oldest and being the coach?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would imagine so, he was their coach. I don't know what other roles he played.

MR KUNY: But you didn't for example delegate functions of keeping the order in the household to him, you still maintained that function yourself?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not at all, I maintained that function myself.

MR KUNY: Now, Madam, I want to take you briefly through the chronology of the events surrounding the transferral of the boys from the manse to your house and I am going to just very briefly sketch the facts as I understand them.  Both given in these proceedings given by the witnesses and at your trial.
 And if I may, more pertinently refer to your evidence given at your trial where you were charged with Ms Falati.
 Ms Falati came to see you, and this was your evidence at the trial, please correct me if you disagree in any way with that, she came to see you on the afternoon of the 29th of December 1988?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: She came to see me on that date, exactly what time, I am not sure.

MR KUNY: And you asked Ms Falati to bring the youngster concerned, she had made a report to you, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It may be correct.  As I stated earlier I did not remember whether she came with Cebekhulu or whether I said she must go and fetch him.

MR KUNY: And Ms Falati then went and fetched the youth concerned?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That may be correct.

MR KUNY: And what do you mean that may be correct?  Why do you say may?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Because I have just stated, I don't remember whether she came with him or whether I said she must go and fetch him.

MR KUNY: Well, you gave that evidence in the trial, we can refer to the record of those proceedings.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible, that is why I say it is possible.

MR KUNY: And you said that when Mr Cebekhulu was brought, he was shocked, he found it difficult to speak to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was?

MR KUNY: You were shocked at his condition and that he found it difficult to speak to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, his state of mind, he was very, very confused.

MR KUNY: You were obviously as has already been alluded to in the cross-examination, already, you were very concerned about his condition?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KUNY: And you then took the boy off to see Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Now, your evidence at the trial was that you made arrangements with Motau to drive you to Brandfort that evening?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KUNY: You also stated at that stage that you had planned to return on the 31st of December so that you could spend new year's eve with your family?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR KUNY: Do you recall that evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR KUNY: And you say in your evidence at your trial, that you left for Brandfort at between 18h30 and 19h00?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is possible, it is a long time ago.

MR KUNY: You won't dispute that evidence that you gave?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I wouldn't.

MR KUNY: And you say that you got back to Johannesburg on the 31st of December, between 18h30 and 19h00?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Now, Madam, I want to just then deal with what happened when you came back.  In fact you gave evidence at your trial that you weren't feeling well that day when you returned?  Do you recall that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I seem to recall that?

MR KUNY: And you said that when you had returned, Ms Falati had said something like she was sorry, she had brought some children there and she hoped that you would not mind, do you recall saying that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recall that.

MR KUNY: Do you recall Ms Falati actually saying that to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I recall words to that effect, it is a long time ago.

MR KUNY: Now, you then gave evidence that because you were not feeling well, you went to bed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible, yes.

MR KUNY: Now, what I would like to know from you is were you not at that stage perturbed that Ms Falati had said to you that she had brought similar victims of Paul Verryn to stay at your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't recollect being perturbed at all.

MR KUNY: Well, let me just put this to you.  You said in your evidence that she rattled something like she had brought similar victims of Paul Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: That those were the terms that she used?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible that that happened.

MR KUNY: Well, that was your evidence?