Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, listen to this in its context.  Hence I asked you about page 24, okay?  That you say what he is saying, you say the facts which happened to this, the facts about this incident are fully described in Mr Jantjie's application and that we should incorporate such facts into your application.  That's what it means.  I don't want to confuse you with the legal requirements of that, but that what in broad outline it means.  Now in regard to Betty Boom, in Mr Jantjie's application which is page 15D, he says: - it is 14.
"Jagga and I succeeded in establishing physical contact with Betty Boom.  It took place as follows.  Firstly, for a period of approximately a month we surveilled her house and determined that she did not receive any visitors there.  She met her cell members in Maseru, in town."
So in respect of that first portion, if I understand you correctly you are saying to us that the only time you knew about Betty Boom, it's when you went to fetch her, the rest you did not know.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, may I explain again.  I was told by Mr Jantjie that they had recruited Betty Boom to be an informer and from there I was not informed of anything regarding Betty Boom, but I was told on that day, when I was told: "Drive with us, we're going to fetch Betty Boom".  That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: This you were not told either, 16 on the same page
"Upon several occasions we held discussions with her.  We informed her that we had available funds which we would make available to her, and so doing we won her trust.  During these discussions we realised that she was not of great value regarding her position within the ANC.  She complained particularly regarding the lack of financial and other support which she and her cell received.  She also stated that she was tired of the struggle, that she felt isolated in Lesotho, and that she wanted to go home.  It was clear that she had been starving, due to a lack of money.  These admissions confirmed the reports that we had received earlier from our informers."
That you don't know about either?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, this was never told to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Nor did you have an opportunity when you discussed certain information before it was given to the superiors, for you to be privy to this what I've read to you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I never had an opportunity to discuss this matter.  I do not know anything about this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: And as a unit of four, when you fetched Betty Boom from Lesotho and she was taken to the farm in Ladybrand, you had no further interest?  Are you suggesting that to us?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: May you repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I say after you had fetched Betty Boom from Lesotho, took her to the farm in Ladybrand and when she was put in another room and you went to the other room, you had not interest about Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Koopedi, to have taken so long, I'm sorry I might have taken the thunder out of your questions.  I'm sorry about that.

MR LAX: Sorry, there's just one thing arising.  Please forgive me.
	I didn't understand what you were saying at some point in your testimony to the Chairperson, but you used a peculiar phrase and I just wanted to be clear about what you meant by it.  In fact, it was in reply to a question from Mr Koopedi.  You said:
"Jantjie told me they found an informer, Betty Boom.  This person is in a good position to work for MK"
that's what was translated, and what did you mean by that?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I must correct that, I listened to the Sotho, he said
"a person in high position within the MK, who would be good for the South African Government"
That's how I understood it.  I think the translation might have missed it there.

MR LAX: Thank you, because it just concerned me, it doesn't make sense at all.  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Thulo, were you ever present in any discussions concerning the fact that Betty Boom is not a happy person, she needs money?  Were you ever present?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: How many days did you work with this unit?  How many times did you see them per day, for instance?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Before this incident?

MR KOOPEDI: Well a month before Betty Boom was abducted.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believe we met every day.

MR KOOPEDI: And perhaps give me your comment to this.  I find it strange that you worked with this unit full-time, you would meet with them every day, but certain discussions go on, you're not privy to them.  Certain information comes from their informers, for instance, that Betty Boom is hungry, Betty Boom doesn't have money, but you don't know about this, is it not strange?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I mentioned earlier on that in those months I was busy organising transport for my child, now I did not have enough time to be with these gentlemen.  I believe this is one of the reasons why I could not be too involved.

MR KOOPEDI: But you just said you saw these people every day.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I asked before this incident - I wanted to explain that when these incidents happened I was not in daily contact with them, but before this incident we met every day.  I had taken care of the baptismal of my child at the church, now we met on a daily basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you do this, this has just hit my mind, may I with the greatest respect, Mr Koopedi?
	Mr Thulo, are you certain that you joined this group in 1987, seven months before this incident?  Are you absolutely certain about that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I told you what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I'm asking you a question, are you absolutely certain?  Because I want to refer you to page 42 of these papers before us, a statement of one Atie Sokadi.  He says in paragraph 6, in June he was arrested and brought here, that is in Johannesburg.  He was brought back or taken to Ladybrand, where he was interrogated and he also mentions you, Thulo.  If you look at paragraph 6, the third sentence from the end of the paragraph he mentions you.  I don't know if Mr Visser could be kind enough to just show you what I'm talking about.  And I think it's more clearer if you go to page 43, at the top there, he says
"During the same year, 1986, myself, Mike, Jantjie, Koki, Thulo, Jackie Tsolo, Celo, Colin Robertshaw, Capt Fouche and Lieut du Plessis, left for Lesotho.  We kidnapped the ANC Chief Representative, Mr Mageta.  We handed him over to Tsolo and Celo, who later crossed with him.  Myself, Koki, Thulo and Mike Jantjie went to Ditabaneng to collect a certain Lesotho soldier working for the South Africans."
So what I'm just asking you here is that, are you certain that you joined in 1987, this unit, or you worked with this unit during 1986?   Or you've forgotten the years?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, when I began I said I started in this unit in 1985.  I was not working for that unit at that time.  I can't even point out this person called Hatiso.  I do not know him.  I don't want to speculate.  I can't even identify him.  I don't want to come and lie here.