Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR RAMAWELE: Can I just put it this way, can you just explain to the hearing from the moment when you arrived until the shooting started, can you just explain that?

ADV DE JAGER: He is asking you to tell us the first, when you first came at that house, from that moment,, what happened, until the shooting started?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: When we arrived, Norma Shosha spoke to one comrade, they said they wanted to see our proof.  We said our AK47s are hidden in the cemetery, Norma Shosha and an unknown man went into the house, we went to Willie, we said these people want a proof, Willie gave us an AK47, we went back.   Norma Shosha then said is somewhere in Chesterville, it was at the hill, only to find that it was a wrong house.  After 15 or 20 minutes, if I remember well, I sent Brown and Chris Magopa to go and look for them, because it had been a long time since they left.  On their way, they met them and they told them that it was a wrong house, now they went back to the same house and we began to suspect that these people were not telling the truth, they were trying to protect Charles because we did not know his face.

MR RAMAWELE: Can you just stop there, because I am getting confused.  You know, on the first occasion you went into a house and people, some members went into the house and the inmates were not satisfied about the bona fides of those people, then you went back to fetch an AK47, is that so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes.

MR RAMAWELE: Then you came back?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: Did you then go to the very same house where the inmates were not satisfied about your bona fides?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We did not get into the house, we just parked.  I think they heard when the kombi approached to bring them an AK47.  They went into the house with the AK47, without bullets, without a magazine.   Later on I gave Norma Shosha and Magagi, I told them to be very careful not to put the magazine inside the AK47, because they can request to see whether the gun was functioning and anything could happen.

MR RAMAWELE: So you are in the kombi, you are outside?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Myself, Chris Magopa, Brown, Solomon Monyoa and Aubrey Mogadi, we were inside the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ramawele, it is yourself, Chris Magopa and who else?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Solomon Monyoa, he is now late.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, Solomon who?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Monyoa.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Aubrey Mogadi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and who else?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: The others were inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were in the kombi outside, parked outside in the street?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You were four, were you four in the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this now when you came back with the AK47?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, now just step back a little bit, when you went to fetch the AK47, which of your people were in the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: M.A. Seleka.

CHAIRPERSON: Just go slow.  M.A. Seleka, who else?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Thabo Magagi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: And female Const Shosha.

CHAIRPERSON: Female Const Shosha?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you left the three of them inside the house when you went to fetch the AK47 rifle, is that right?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now then you go back to the same house, is that correct?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You parked your kombi in the street?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: How far from this house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Between 20 and 25 metres, if I recall well Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right, now you parked again, you've got the AK47, the four of you are in the kombi.  Tell us now what happened from there onwards?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Norma Shosha came with the first person, unknown to me.  I gave them an empty AK47, they then said they were leaving for the uphill houses to check for another comrade.  Norma Shosha then ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you give them the AK47 without a magazine and without ammunition?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you give it to?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I gave it to Female Const Shosha.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, it is Female Const Shosha and this unknown person and they tell you now they are going uphill to look for another comrade, is that right?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: No, they first go back to the house to show the others.

CHAIRPERSON: So they take this AK47 and they go back inside the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, now you are still sitting in the kombi, now what happens then?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They came back to tell us that they were going up the hill and I gave, in fact Norma Shosha asked me whether I was not going to give them a magazine.  She said maybe they will request from us to see the magazine and the bullets, I gave it to her and I said "please don't put this in the magazine.  What you can do Norma Shosha, you can give it to Thabo", because Thabo was heavily built.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, now you say that they came, who are they that came out of the house now with Cons Shosha as you ...

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It was Norma Shosha and Seleka, I remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: The two of them.

CHAIRPERSON: The two of them came out of the house, the two of them came out of the house and they came to the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, they came to the kombi to tell us that they were going, Magagi and the rest were in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: And Shosha spoke to you about the magazines and you gave it to her and then, what did they do, Seleka and ...

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They went back to the house, they were actually going to tell us that they were leaving the house so that we don't get surprised.

CHAIRPERSON: But they went back inside the house, is that right?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, I think they were telling them that they were ready to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no, it is all right, don't tell us things that you don't know, don't speculate, it makes the story even more complicated.   They went back into the house, Shosha and Seleka, then you are still sitting in the kombi the four of you, what happens then?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They left Chairperson, for quite a while.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see them coming out of the house again?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you see coming out of the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I saw people getting out of the house, I could not see who each one of them was because it was dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any of them, did you identify any of them, of these people?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know who was it that came out of the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to these people that came out of the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They were away for 20 to 25 minutes if I recall well because Solomon Monyoa and Chris Magoba went out and I was left behind with Mogadi.  On the way they met and they told us that, they told the two that the house that they had been to was a wrong house, then they all came back.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute Mr Radebe, did you hear all this?  Did you hear what was said here, that you are telling us now about, were you not sitting in the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I was in the kombi, I sent people to go and look for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but did you hear what those people that you sent, said to these other people?  Were you not sitting in the kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I think me and Mogadi went to fetch them with the kombi, if I recall well.