Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes that is so.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR NTONGA: At the time you received this first injection where was your gun, fully drawn, being brought to play or in the process of being drawn?  Do you still remember or you can't?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I drew my gun when I heard these two shots.  After having drawn my gun I felt this shots against my thigh from the back.

MR NTONGA: Okay, so you already had it in your hand when you were shot?  If I'm correct say so, if not correct me.  After hearing the two shots you had it drawn up in your hand before you were hit?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I drew my gun after hearing the first two shots.

MR NTONGA: Yes I said that I agree with you but I'm saying that before you yourself were hit, it was already in your hand, that's what I'm trying to establish, the gun, your gun?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Ntonga really, if he drew his gun it could only be in his hand, it couldn't be anywhere else so let's not belabour point, I think you've made the point.

MR NTONGA: And after hearing the first injury what you didn't do with your gun that is after being hit for the first time, what did you do with the gun?  That's before you lost your consciousness?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I was shot many times, about three times on my leg but because I could not count them then, I fell and became unconscious.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you fire the shot was it after you had been shot?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I fired my gun after being hit on my leg, firing into the air.

MR NTONGA: And having fired you lost consciousness am I correct?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: May the question please be repeated?

MR NTONGA: After you fired your own gun now, did you thereafter, being hit on your leg and you fell down there and lost consciousness, is that correct or not?
Or the other way around, did you receive further shots after you fired your own gun which made you to lose your consciousness and fall down?

MR NTONGA: You don't follow me?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I'd like the question to be asked slowly, I cannot follow it properly.

MR NTONGA: Okay, you have told the Chairperson that you did fire your gun but this was before you fell down I assume, is that correct, and lost consciousness before that, is that correct?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: That is so yes.

MR NTONGA: Now I want to know whether you did the firing after you had been hit with the three bullets as you claim or in between?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I shot one shot after having been shot myself.
ADV. GCABASHE: Sorry, can you say that again, I'm not sure the translation was correct, can you just give the answer again?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I fired after being shot myself responding to this person with a khaki cap drawn into his face wearing a striped pair of trousers.  I shot into the air trying to respond to him and my shot went into the air.

MR NTONGA: I'll ask this question for the last time.  If you can't remember the sequence please say so, I'm not wishing you to remember it, is it after you had been shot once then you reacted and then you were shot thereafter and then you fell down.  Is that the correct sequence?  Or you shot after being shot by all three bullets but before you went down?  Which is the correct sequence - if you remember, you can say so if you don't remember, if don't you can say so.

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: When two shots rang out while I was trying to go and close the door after having jumped over a chair, I tried to turn around, drawing my pistol.  I was shot from behind and then I shot into the air having seen vaguely this person with the khaki cap drawn into his face wearing a khaki jacket and a striped pair of trousers.

MR NTONGA: Okay, now I follow you.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is though after you had shot into the air vaguely at this person in khaki were you shot again and did you then fall down?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: After that I fell down and was unconscious.

MR LAX: Sorry the one part you didn't answer was were you shot before you fell down and were unconscious, were you shot again?

CHAIRPERSON: You were shot once you have told us, you then fired into the air, were you then shot again before you fell down?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Two shots rang out whilst I was going to close the door, jumping over a chair, I drew my gun trying to respond, I was hit by bullets from behind, trying to respond to that person I saw vaguely to the side, wearing this cap, wearing a khaki jacket and a striped pair of trousers, I then fell.  The bullets are coming from behind me.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just one thing of interest Mr Sandla, I'm subject to Chairman's assentient on that.  Why do you start always from one point whenever you answer a question: "After I heard two bullets" - when the question's far from that?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Can you please repeat yourself sir?

MR NTONGA: I'm saying I'm subject to censure by the Chairman on this point.  I'm asking it for interest sake, why...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it really argument?

MR NTONGA: Do I understand you clearly that the reason why you shot up on the air is that after you had been hit for the first time you were confused, you couldn't take proper aim, whatever it is, on your assailants although you're trying to start to shoot at them.  Is that the reason why you shot at the air not at your assailants?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: It is because I had been hit by bullets from behind and this was so strong I became dizzy in my head.

MR NTONGA: Okay.  So you are saying all in all you did not see how the security men and Mr Pama were injured?  That is the first man who died and the policeman who was also injured?  You did not see them, how they were injured?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: After I recovered my consciousness I saw Mr Mankumba and Mr Pama lying about where the interpreters are sitting.  After I regained my consciousness I saw them lying there.

MR NTONGA: Where you were standing and where you were shot next the door is there a pillar around there, if you still remember this please, I understand you were there for the first time?  Is there some pillar around -next to the door where you were hit - you yourself were hit?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No, one that was there it was a bit far from where I was.

MR NTONGA: Was it next or near where Mr Pama and his security have fallen down?  The pillar?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes that is so.

MR NTONGA: What happened to the second security man who was in the auditorium to whom you have been talking about closing the doors, do you know or not?  When you've been shot and after you have regained consciousness did you see him again?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: The last time I saw him was when we're still talking, that was the last time.

MR NTONGA: Did you note whether they were armed that is security people from UNITRA or not?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I did not take special notice because they were wearing their jackets.

MR NTONGA: The people, you say there were ten people inside the auditorium coming in, going out, did you notice any of them being armed?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No.

MR NTONGA: And if for instance one was armed with two guns going to the auditorium you could have seen him or it was not possible to see him?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I would not have seen if the guns were not exposed which was not held by hand.

MR NTONGA: So if they were held by hand you would have seen them, especially men armed with two guns?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes that is so.
ADV. SANDI: Mr Ntonga, can I just ask a question whilst you're getting yourself ready?
	Mr Sandla, I notice from the records that we're talking about an incident here which happened more than five years ago, do you agree with that?  If you count from 1993 to 1998 that's about five years.  Now what I want to ask you with what degree of certainty are you able to recall the exact sequence of events?