Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

ADV SANDI: Mr Duma, where were you when you gave this instruction to Mr Biko?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Pardon?

TAMSANQA DUMA: When you gave the instruction to Mr Biko that the house of Mr Franciscato be attacked and arms repossessed, where were you?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I was at home by the time.

ADV SANDI: Who was with you?

TAMSANQA DUMA: My family was with me but by the time I gave him the instructions we were together in one room.

ADV SANDI: It was just the two of you?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you say to him who he should involve in this?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I told him that I will arrange from the pool of APLA, which are the task forces, the forces which, I will nominate the forces which they will operate with him.

ADV SANDI: Who were those going to be?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I elected four forces by the time.  He elected Winile Veveza, Mzuamadoda Yengeni, Mogeti - I'm sorry, I nominated Mogeti and Winile Veveza as well as Mzuamadoda Yengeni.

ADV SANDI: Did you say when and what time they should carry out this instruction?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I didn't tell him specifically but what I, according to my plans I told him the right time of starting the operation, especially around the time of five up to seven because I know most of the people at that time they are inside the houses and the others are washing themselves, others are having supper.  So they don't expect anything at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Duma, you say after you instructed Mr Biko, you said you arrange the forces with whom he was going to be involved, do you remember that?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean by that?

TAMSANQA DUMA: As I know that he, Mr Biko is a trained member of APLA, a full trained member, and he arrived alone as I requested from the high command of APLA, to get one cadre for the problem I have discovered at Fort Beaufort and they also knew that I'm also a cadre of APLA but I'm under surveillance because I'm coming out of prison under amnesty of which I didn't apply for it.  I told them that I can't operate by myself and things are like that.  And being a local commander taking part for the survival of the PAC at Fort Beaufort, I must get one cadres, a person whom he knows clearly the terrain of Fort Beaufort.
	So they gave me one APLA cadre of which I knew that I have 17 units of the task forces which I have already built from 1991.  I told that I have no problem to get the upperhand, the helping hand because the task forces are already there, so I only want one cadre so that he can command them in that operation.

MR MAPOMA: So you say you nominated these applicants together with Mogeti?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean by saying you nominated them?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I choose them from amongst many, many people, many forces I had at the time.  That the best people who can go and carry on this operation are this one and this one and this one and I decided to take them.

ADV SANDI: Did they agree to that?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I can say yes, because what I usually told them during their training, if the call is there it is there, no-one will say no or no-one will defy the order.  If I want to see you, I want to see you.  If I say I want to see you in such a place you must be there at that time I say I want you to be there.  So that is why they have decided to be there at that time and then Mr Biko got them at that place.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying you are the person who instructed them to go with Mr Biko?  Do I understand you to be saying that?

TAMSANQA DUMA: In all it is given that it is me because it is also I who have instructed Mr Biko to go to Mr Zukile's house so that he could get the forces, the people that are going to operate with him.

ADV SANDI: I'm sorry Mr Mapoma, I don't want unduly interrupt you.
	Let us get this clear now.  What you mean here is that you spoke with Veveza, you spoke with Yengeni and you spoke with Mogeti and you said: "I want you to be involved in this operation with Biko.  I want you to go and attack the house of Mr Franciscato", and they agreed to that, is that what you are saying?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No.  I gave the orders direct to Mr Biko.  I ordered them, I sent one of our comrades to make a contact that, to Mr Yengeni and Mr Veveza as well as Mogeti, that I want to meet with them in Zukile's house around three in the afternoon, knowing that at that time they will expect me to be there and then at that time I knew that I will send Mr Biko, Mr Mabuti Biko so that he can meet with them.  And then as they knew that he was at Fort Beaufort by the time, because it was about a week he was there, and then he just talked to them that he wants to see them, as he told the Committee what he did by the time they met there.  As he was instructed by me.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	So you say you instructed them to be available at a particular place to meet Mr Biko?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And you were not there to tell them that: "You guys are going to go with Mr Biko and Biko is going to be commander", that's not what you did?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I was not there physically.

MR MAPOMA: So in a way Mr Biko just took them and left with them?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And they not knowing where they were going?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Definitely as a commander he was supposed to tell them.  I mean the situation was depending at him as a commander, when to tell them or where to tell them.

MR MAPOMA: So you instructed Mr Biko, as you said in your evidence, that: "You go and kill in order to get weapons", do I understand you correctly?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes, I(?) understand it.

MR MAPOMA: So the purpose, the ultimate objective was to get weapons?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: So if they managed to get weapons without necessarily killing there would be no need to kill?  Is that what I understand from your instructions?

TAMSANQA DUMA: If they could get weapons without the presence of the enemy, because under the PAC politics we all understand who is the enemy.  We distinguish between the enemy and the people who are oppressed.  So in the operation and even by the time I was training the forces, there was nothing I was telling anyone without killing the Boers because I grew up knowing that the Boers are busy with their business killing the African people for their survival, of which they were supposed to kill for our survival too.
	It doesn't matter he just say: "There are the weapons in the cupboard", at the back he will call the police and if they give resistance against the police the police will shoot to kill them.  So they were forced to kill so that he cannot give evidence to anyone.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but what I want to understand correctly, Mr Duma, is whether by killing Mr Franciscato when the weapons were already discovered, Mr Biko was carrying out your order still?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV SANDI: When did you know Mr Winile Veveza, when did you get to know him or of him for the first time and where was that?

TAMSANQA DUMA: It was after my release during 1991.

ADV SANDI: In what context did you meet him?

TAMSANQA DUMA: He came to join the PAC task force at Fort Beaufort.

ADV SANDI: And Mzuamadoda Yengeni, when and where did you meet him for the fist time?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Fort Beaufort too, under the task force.

ADV SANDI: Have you ever given instructions, was it the first time that you gave instructions to be carried out by, let's start by Winile Veveza, had you given an instruction to Winile Veveza before?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No, the only instructions which they got from me were just the instructions of the training but not the operative instructions.

ADV SANDI: In spite of all the problems your organisation had in Fort Beaufort, you had never given any instruction to Winile Veveza to be of assistance in solving those problems?