Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  May I apologise to everybody present about us starting late.  We are not going to put blame upon any quarter but we as the Committee would take responsibility for starting late.  I am Motata, I will be chairing these proceedings.  I am from the Transvaal Provincial Division.  On my right I have my brother, Judge de Jager, also from the Transvaal Provincial Division.  On my left I have Adv Sandi from East London.
	I would, on that note, request the legal representatives who'd be involved in these applications, to place themselves on record.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.  My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo from East London.  I'm representing the applicants in this matter.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I'm Jaco Kachelhoffer, I'll spell my surname for you as usual, K-A-C-H-E-L-H-O-F-F-E-R.  I'm from the firm McIntyre, van der Post, Bloemfontein and I'm representing the van Tonder victims in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kachelhoffer.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm Lulama Mtanga the Evidence Leader for the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Before we start we have these devices.  Anybody who wants to benefit from the translation, it will be translated in all languages I'm told, but I'm not putting out my neck for that, that it's got channels.  I know Afrikaans would be channel 1, English would be channel 2 and Sotho would be 3.
	Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm ready Chairperson, thanks.  Chairperson, the first applicant will be Titus Lethohonolo Lebea.  May he be sworn in, Chairperson?

TITUS LETHOHONOLO LEBEA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, is it correct that you were born on the 14th of March 1971 in Vanderbijlpark?

MR LEBEA: It is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it correct that you are also a member of the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you join the PAC?

MR LEBEA: I joined the PAC in 1988, on the 10th of February, 1988.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee who recruited you to PAC?

MR LEBEA: It is Mr Jona Makara.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now in 1988 when you joined PAC, PAC was banned.  Where did you join?

MR LEBEA: We operated underground.  It is true it was banned, but we operated underground.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lebea, I think the question is where did you join the PAC.

MR LEBEA: Here in Mangaung, Bloemfontein.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, were you ever a member of APLA?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join APLA?

MR LEBEA: I joined APLA late 1989 and I was recruited to serve in the Task Force.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you undergo any military training?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you undergo such training?

MR LEBEA: I received the training inside the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you do Mr Mbandazayo, where inside the country?

MR LEBEA: In Mangaung, Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say later you were put in the Task Force, was this Task Force part of APLA?

MR LEBEA: Yes, it is part of APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may ask, what was the Task Force supposed to do because we know that APLA was the military wing, that it was waging the war.  What was the Task Force there for?

MR LEBEA: The Task Force is part of APLA.  It was established to protect the community against the attacks.  As you know very well that the previous regime was attacking the Africans, it was basically to protect the community and to assist APLA with ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow.  The purpose why APLA was fighting was to fight the regime, as you put it, that there must be a better dispensation, now when you say the Task Force was to protect the community, what do you mean by that?

MR LEBEA: This is what I mean.  The Task Force is a unit within APLA and its function, as I already mentioned, it was to protect the community against the attacks.  Let me give an example.  It's like the Self Defence Units.

CHAIRPERSON: And when were these Task Forces formed?

MR LEBEA: They were formed in 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue, Mr Mbandazayo.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Chairman, with your permission.  Before you proceed Mr Mbandazayo, can I just ask, give us the name of the person or people who gave you military training.

MR LEBEA: It's Themba Ncapai.

ADV SANDI: How many were you whilst you were receiving training?  Give us the names of other people who were also being trained.

MR LEBEA: It was myself at the beginning and later King Lebea joined and at a later stage Abram Donosi joined.

ADV SANDI: What was the duration of that training?

MR LEBEA: It was two to three days training.

ADV SANDI: What was the training about?  What exactly were you being trained to do?  What sort of skills were imparted to you?

MR LEBEA: It was a crash course.

ADV SANDI: Please explain.

CHAIRPERSON: Entailing what in that crash course?  In other words what my colleague is asking, in that crash course, what were you doing?

MR LEBEA: We were taught to handle firearms, how to dismantle a firearm, how to use it.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of firearms were you trained to dismantle and put together?

MR LEBEA: AK47 and the millimetre pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: What is a millimetre pistol?

MR LEBEA: 9mm pistols.

ADV SANDI: Where exactly inside the country did this training take place?

MR LEBEA: I said the training was here in Bloemfontein.

ADV SANDI: Where exactly in Bloemfontein?

MR LEBEA: It was at Pelindaba.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and the Honourable Members of the Committee.  Mr Lebea, you have already indicated that you were trained by Themba Ncapai, just for the record, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, Themba Ncapai was a member of High Command of APLA, died in 1992 in Durban.  He was killed in Durban in 1992.  He was from Tsandane.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo, for this comment.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could I just have clarity on this?  You testified that the function was to defend the community, is that right?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Against attacks by the Government and I presume the army and the police?

MR LEBEA: Very well so.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And against who else?

MR LEBEA: And to add on that, it was to target the farmers.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But then you're not defending, you're now busy with an offence, because you're attacking other people, you're not defending the community.

MR LEBEA: It was not an offence as such, you know that the Government of that day oppressed the Africans and I believe you know very well that the white people, how did they come here in the country and they were targeted, these were the people we were supposed to attack so that we can get the resources to use in fostering our war forward.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow when you say attacking the farmers was not an offence because my brother asked you that you were fighting the police, the army and you say: "in addition we targeted the farmers" and the question that logically followed thereafter was that that was an offence and you say no, it was not an offence.  Were you trained to fight the farmers, or were you trained to defend the community against the police or the army?  Let's get that first.

MR LEBEA: What I'm trying to explain here is that it is true, when the Task Force was formed, it was with the purpose of protecting the community against the attacks by the Government, Police and the Force.  When the operation Great Storm was launched, we had to intensify our struggle for freedom by attacking police, the farmers, because these are people who had the economy in their hands.  By so doing it was in a way to decrease the economy so that the white oppressors could leave the country.