Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of the Elsburg operation did you report to Msiki before you utilised the money?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Indeed I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was that report given to Msiki?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I reported telephonically the very same day that we had finished that operation, during the evening I reported to Msiki.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair.
	Mr Maseko, just one last aspect on this point, I noticed in your affidavit which is marked A, there's no mention that you had phoned or contacted Msiki for authorisation to use this money.  Can you explain why that is?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I did explain that I reported to Msiki.  I did not report this particular Elsburg incident but I reported all the incidents or all the operations that we undertook, I explained that earlier on.

ADV PRIOR: No, I'm asking about this specific one.  You've just told the Committee that you phoned the very evening, the same evening you phoned Msiki and told him about this operation.  Did I hear you correctly?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I usually phoned him to report and I phoned him on this particular day to report after the operation.

ADV PRIOR: And he gave you permission, he said you can use the proceeds, the R6000, is that your evidence?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I told him that we were in financial need and we needed him to ratify as to whether we could use the money.  He said yes we could.

ADV PRIOR: I'm just asking you, you've made a substantial affidavit which was handed up this morning.  You've been referred to it, you've signed it.  My question is quite simply, is there any reason why that information, that you had phoned Msiki in Gaborone to ask for permission to use the money while that doesn't appear here?  You seem to have left that out and I'm simply asking is there a reason why you left it out of your affidavit?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I did specify in my affidavit that I reported to Msiki.  I did not specify each and every detail of reporting but I thought that it was sufficient for me to say that I reported to Msiki and each and every operation that we undertook I later reported to Msiki.

ADV PRIOR: Did you as the commander of the repossession unit which was codenamed Beauty Salon, did for your own benefit, did you keep a record of how much money you had obtained in all these operations?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I could not do that, as I had pointed earlier on that it was a dangerous exercise to keep records of our operations, because it would have been discovered by anyone.

ADV PRIOR: Weren't you at danger of being suspected of keeping money for yourself which should have gone to the high command in the absence of such record?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: No, there wasn't a danger of that sort because we had principles and guidelines that we used in our operations and after operations.

ADV PRIOR: I remember and please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I remember during the UNITRA hearing at which you testified, you indicated to that Committee in East London that some of the comrades sometimes used the money for their own purposes and that was sometimes beyond your control or evidence to that effect.  Can you remember saying something like that?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I never said that, I said as soldiers and within the soldiers themselves there's some form of anarchy and at some stage we did not trust each other or I did not trust them.  That's natural, you can go anywhere, there's always that anarchy that exists among the soldiers and as a commander I knew that certain things like the ones you've explained do happen but I haven't come across them personally.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to give this Committee any degree of certainty that the monies you obtained in these operations in fact found their way to the high command in Gaborone and was used for the purposes of APLA within the organisation of the PAC?   Maybe I can just add a tail to that, are you able from your own application, maybe not now but maybe after an adjournment, a tea adjournment, to come and give us some information of how much money was in fact taken to Botswana as was your orders during that time?  Because at the moment we don't know how much the PAC received or APLA received from these operations.  It just seems to have been an ad hoc - if you felt you were able to take money it was sent but most of it was used for your own operating costs, operational costs.  Would you be able to do that for us please Mr Maseko?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That's impractical because I can't remember all the monies that we received from the operation but what I can tell you is I never went to Botswana many times or a number of times.  Even if I can try to give you an estimation of the money that we retrieved, I don't think it would give you a clear picture of what actually happened or how much money we retrieved.

ADV PRIOR: For purposes of your amnesty application and we are aware that the PAC have been assisting to a very large extent and assisting the applicants, have you made any enquiries from the higher structures whether corroborative information could be obtained from the structures in Botswana at the time to confirm that they in fact received money from your particular unit?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: If Msiki was around I think he could have testified to that but since the unit started now, working within the country, at some stage I took the money to the administrator that is within the South African Borders.

ADV PRIOR: Who was that?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: His name was Comrade Mandla Lenim, but he is late now, he died whilst I was in prison.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  You also indicated that one of the aims of the repossession unit was to obtain motor vehicles?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Was that motor vehicles to be used in the struggle for liberation?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct, we used some of these cars to conduct our operations especially vans because they are bigger and they could carry quite a number of people who were going to undertake an operation.  Some were used by other units, not particularly or specifically our own unit.

ADV PRIOR: Now the van that was taken in this operation, the bakkie, I seem to recall your evidence that it was abandoned somewhere on the road, you just left it there because you had a car waiting for you?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct, we did not need that van at that stage because we had our own getaway car, that's why we dumped it.

ADV PRIOR: But I'm struggling to understand your evidence Mr Maseko because if the part of your mandate was to obtain vehicles for the struggle, cash, jewellery and weapons, here you had that perfectly good vehicle but you just abandoned it.  Why didn't you take it with you?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: At that time our unit reported to Botswana and we could not take this van to Botswana because we knew of the dangers involved in doing that.

CHAIRPERSON: But couldn't you have used that van for other operations that you intended to conduct?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: There was nowhere we could store the van.

CHAIRPERSON: And whilst on that point, was the stealing of the white van part of the original getaway plan?  Was that part of your plan?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: No, it was just for us to move from that point of the commission of the crime or the attack, the launching of the attack to another point where we could get away.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that, was it part of your original plan, did you, when you were sitting down planning how the operation was going to be conducted, had in mind that there would be an abandoned van that would then be stolen and used as a means of a getaway to get to where your car was?