Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

H J P BOTHA: During the questioning of Mr Ndaba, during the 7th and the 8th of July 1990, I for the first time started placing the information which Ndaba had given me in perspective.  This is now the information which I had received from him before his arrest on the Saturday.  I started placing it in perspective and upon the questioning of Ndaba, the total extent of Operation Vula, as it was known to him, was placed in perspective.  It then became clear to me that the operation was of a far greater extent and impact as what I realised previously.  Ndaba also gave me the addresses of certain safe-houses and also the keys to get access to one such safe-house.  During the night of the 7th to 8th July.

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon, I don't know if this was a mistake in the drafting, are you saying it's the night or the nights of the 7th and 8th July?  Is it the night of 7 and 8 or the nights of 7 and 8?

H J P BOTHA: No, both the nights of the 7th and the 8th.  I and Sam du Preez went to two of these safe-houses and we seized a number of documents and we removed it and in the process we committed housebreaking with the intent to steal and theft and from these documents and the computer printouts which we seized a certain picture became clear of a large scheme, of a larger scheme and what Operation Vula was all about.
	The repercussions of the planned people's war whilst political negotiations were in full swing and the gravity of the consequences of that and the consequences of that for South African Government and the whole negotiating process then became clear to me and the name Vula then for the first time also became the focus of my attention.
	As a result of my new insight relating to the information, I reported to Gen Steyn and made an appointment, he made an appointment to meet the head of the Security Division, Gen Basie Smit in Pretoria on the 10th of July, in order to inform him of what was going on.  I went to Pretoria with Gen Steyn on the 10th of July 1990.  Gen Smit then spoke to us in the presence of Maj Gen Bob Beukes, Alfred Oosthuizen, who was then a colonel, Andre Pruis, then a brigadier and Jimmy Taylor, then a colonel and Paul Abrie, then a brigadier.  After the necessary information had been given to these persons, Gen Smit said that he wanted us to convey this information personally to Gen van der Merwe, who was then the Commissioner of the South African Police and that we should do so the next morning.
	On Tuesday the 11th of July Gen Steyn and I had an information session with Col van der Merwe.

MR VISSER: Which would be the Wednesday?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that's correct.

H J P BOTHA: Wednesday 11th.  Gen van der Merwe gave the order that the Department of Foreign Affairs and the State President should be informed regarding the identity and the objectives of the people involved in Operation Vula.  The Commissioner also was of the view that both the Republic and the Foreign Intelligence Services should be informed.  According to my recollection, Gen van der Merwe decided that actions against these individuals involved in Operation Vula should only take place during the week of the 16th of July after the relevant Intelligence Services and Foreign Embassies had been informed, so that they could be prepared for the revelations and arrests since that would have a very definite influence and effect on the negotiation process.  He suggested that we do not continue with any arrests until there was feedback from Pretoria to Durban.  On the same day we then returned to Durban from Pretoria.

MR VISSER: That's Wednesday, 11th July?

H J P BOTHA: Yes and that was the same date on which I had to place Ndaba back to continue with his intelligence gathering within the structures of Vula.
	I told him that as a result of the decisions taken in Pretoria that certain arrests would follow and that his position as an informer in Operation Vula was a matter of some concern and as a result of this I asked him whether he'd be prepared to testify if he was asked to do so.

MR VISSER: Testify against whom?

H J P BOTHA: Whoever would then be charged in any cases arising from these events.  Ndaba however refused bluntly.
	Meanwhile there was a new development as far as Shabalala was concerned.  I was told that he had said that Ndaba was collaborating with the police.  He'd obviously put 2 and 2 together.  Although I don't know exactly on what basis Shabalala made that inference, it could however have happened during the questioning by the C 20 Unit members or the arrest itself or something which had been said during his detention.

MR VISSER: Perhaps just to make this clear for the Committee, where were these persons detained, in the same room in this house in Verulam, or what?

H J P BOTHA: They shared a communal room, but they slept in separate rooms and the discussions and interrogations were done with them separately.

MR VISSER: Proceed.  Mr Chairman, perhaps this is a convenient point for your adjournment to be taken.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it will be.  Thank you very much.  We will adjourn now and resume at a quarter to 2.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

H J P BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. please proceed.

MR VISSER: (cont.)
	Mr Chairman, it's that time of day again when I feel compelled to inquire whether you would allow us to discard our jackets at this stage, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Please do so.

MR VISSER: We're indebted to you, Mr Chairman.  And then I might say that I stopped perhaps at an inconvenient time, I should have perhaps gone beyond paragraph 45, but I'll just pick it up with the witness again Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, during the adjournment you said there was a change with regard to Ndaba in that he had indicated that he knew that Shabalala was working with the police.

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And you speculated and said that he put 2 and 2 together, but he may have drawn the inference that when members of C20 had questioned him, or during his arrest or something, that he must have heard said during his detention.

H J P BOTHA: That is so Chairperson.

MR VISSER: will you please continue then?

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that to mean that you formed the view, at least you thought that Shabalala had, as a result of his interview, formed the notion that his friend was an informer?

H J P BOTHA: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do carry on.