Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  And nobody has been brave enough to say I did so because of the advice.

UNKNOWN: They didn't mention chiefs, they would rather perhaps mention traditional doctors.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well that's what I'm talking about, have they mentioned those people?

UNKNOWN: In some few cases they did and those doctors were actually hanged.

CHAIRPERSON: For giving advice to take another person's life?

UNKNOWN: For even being actively involved.

CHAIRPERSON: And do these things still take place on such a large scale, or has it decreased?

UNKNOWN: Well, after our Commission of Inquiry here I'll be very honest with you, in this area which in the past had a lot of ritual murder cases, there are now very, very few.  The Judges here were not soft, especially in Venda, so there are very, very few cases of muti murder in Venda now.

CHAIRPERSON: The people are starting to learn respect for life.

UNKNOWN: And they are scared.  Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And how, as victims of such activities, and those who benefited by it, have they been able to get together lately?

UNKNOWN: No.  People, all applicants, are appearing because of the presence of the TRC but otherwise in the past once that case was disposed in court, it was finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that's why I'm trying to get some information from you, are people able to meet each other now and bury the hatchet, and become friends again?

UNKNOWN: It's not easy.

CHAIRPERSON: I know it's not easy, but are they able to do so, or have they been doing so, maybe on a small scale?

UNKNOWN: I haven't heard of such things.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Sorry for the long interruption Mr van Rensburg.  Please carry on.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you.  Professor now if I can just continue on that point, say for instance a group of people wants to get rid of one person now, am I correct to say that they will perhaps choose one of two courses of action?  The one is that they will start spreading a rumour that that specific person is a witch, implying that he can cause damage or bad luck to other people, and secondly, they can start spreading the rumour that that person is prosperous because he is involved in ritual killings and that is the reason for his prosperity?

UNKNOWN: During that time of chaos here, people will say Mr A is a very wealthy man and yet we did not see his own servants.  Who is ploughing his fields?  It must be Zombies, he must be having Zombies.  Some even add, "when I was passing the place last night, I heard many voices in the field".  So such stories when they reach fairly young people, they will say, Mr A doesn't have many servants and yet he is a very flourishing farmer, he must be having Zombies who are ploughing for his field.  Now because he's having Zombies, well if such a person is killed, the country has been ridden of someone who was quite evil, the way how they see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And of course it follows that the Zombies won't work for him anymore.

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, that I think proves my earlier point that I put to you that there is in fact a link between the witchcraft and the prosperity of the person, is that not so?  Because the questions of the Zombies working for the prosperous person, falls more in the ambit of the witchcraft than in the ambit of the ritual killing, is that not so?

UNKNOWN: One cannot generalise.  I did say here in the beginning that there were some cases in which one could clearly say, this one was killed because certain people were jealous of his success, but I cannot generalise.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, thank you very much.  On this question of the jealousy, should we make a distinction between a general feeling of jealousy when one person excels compared to the rest amongst the people, on the one side, and then on the other side, this question of prosperity because he's involved in certain dark practices.  Is there a specific  distinction between these two or is it actually one and the same thing?

UNKNOWN: It's a very complex situation.  Go to our school results, in both urban and rural areas, Mr A's daughter passed standard 10 with distinction and then perhaps she is overrun by a car, quite an incident, but if they go and consult a Sangoma, very often it will be a neighbour who has heard that this girl was a brilliant child at school.  They say no, a certain neighbour has caused her death out of jealousy, yet we all know that that particular child was killed by a car.  So the one who is suspected of having caused the death of that brilliant child through their own evil deeds, if it was during those days that is 1988 up to 1992, she could have been killed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  I really appreciate your insight in this and the examples are very, very interesting, but I have really difficulty in interpreting your questions, the question is simple, are all the allegations of jealousy, when a person is jealous of the other because he's excelled, does that always involve an element of witchcraft, or something like that, or would you say that there's, on the other hand, and distinguish from that, a normal feeling in the community which has got nothing to do with witchcraft, just that they don't like one person to excel above the others?

UNKNOWN: I did not say jealousy alone could result in what we have just said here, but that in certain cases the people, local people, can say A was killed because certain people were jealous of his or her success.  I cannot generalise.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  Let's talk about the procedure of pointing a person as a witch.  Is it not so that there is and perhaps traditionally was, a specific ritual that must take place before a person can be pointed as a witch?

UNKNOWN: There were means of finding out why A was a witch.  A, a person becomes sick, we consult a traditional healer.  He has got his own bones, he throws them and says no the cause here is not a witch.  We will now perform certain ritual things wanted by our own ancestors.  Go and perform those rites, or B, a certain neighbour a certain aunt is jealous of this.  Anyhow, she or he will say "don't worry, I will treat this".  Then if the child is not treated and then should that child die, seeing the first doctor has already told us that aunt A was responsible for that illness, we will go and kill that aunt in the old system.  The system worked very, very well.  You go to the royal kraal.  I am accusing A, he's a witch, he has killed my own daughter and the chief says "right, you bring two heads of cattle at the royal village.  I am going to give you a messenger.  You go to a more powerful diviner, unknown to yourself and unknown to us.  That particular person who knows nothing about this case, will tell us who the witch is."  Then they go to that Sangoma.  The Sangoma might clear this first accused, and to show that he has cleared you he gives you a small horn.  You keep on blowing that horn right at the royal village to say I'm cleared, I'm clean.  That day they will know that somebody who was cleared is coming back home in style.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, thank you.

UNKNOWN: So if you look at it now, nobody was killed, but with the 1989 system, just to hear that A is a witch, they would go and stone her.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, so that is exactly my point.  Are you in fact saying that there was a change in that traditional perception?

UNKNOWN: There was a change, but we must understand this change.  Chiefs had been in fact presented as protectors of witches, whatever they did was not taken seriously.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So in certain circumstances, if I understand your evidence in chief correctly, people were executed as witches but the real reason was actually that they were executed because they did not think like the rest of the people?   That is the drift of your evidence, is that not correct?

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't say so.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.