Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, my instructions from Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Erasmus is that, looking at the floor plan of the 5th floor, the marks made there represent a trellace, 'n traaliwerk, with a door, a security door and it was exactly at the time in 1986 there was a similar trellace on the 4th floor.
    So both the floors had at the same  security entrance as it were, from the lift well.  Shall we, perhaps, give this an exhibit number, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary for just the floor plan, it's the only floor plan?

MR VISSER: Yes, we can just call it, just refer to it as the floor plan. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: While we've got this witness here, could we perhaps ask him to look at the plan and whether he understands the plan of the 5th floor.
    Do you understand this plan?

MR MMELESI: I'm still looking at the plan Sir.   Yes, I see the plan, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you indicate on that plan, which is the office that you worked in?

MR MMELESI: If I'm not mistaken, they don't have numbers here, Sir. They are not numbered.
    If I'm not mistaken, it's office 409.

CHAIRPERSON: The 5th floor we are supposed to be looking at.

MR MMELESI: Pardon me?
    I think it's 5029, this is the number.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, that office is not marked with a number unfortunately it was marked: "stoor" beforehand and apparently later on certain walls were put up, he's referring ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just office on the corner.

MR VISSER: Not the one on the corner, he's referring to 5029 as I understand it.  If he could just perhaps with a pencil mark, mark it Mr Chairman, it might be the easiest.

MR MMELESI: Sir, I remember the first one, it was a store room, this is the office number.  I think it was 22.49 if I'm not mistaken. It's 508.  Sir, it's 508.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the office number written in the doorway?

MR MMELESI: Yes, the number is written on the door, it's 509.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Mmelesi.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. The next witness.
	The next witness is Mr Tsoametsi, which is spelt t - s - o - a - m - e - t - s - i.
Mr Chairman, there is an affidavit by Mr Tsoametsi.     I'm sorry, I've just lost the page, I'll give you the page reference.

MR BRINK: Bundle B, 29 to 31.

MR VISSER: My learned friend says bundle B, page forty one to forty three Mr Chairman and he's correct.  My thanks to my learned friend.

MR TSOAMETSI: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Tsoametsi, is it correct that you are a retired warrant officer.

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And is it correct that you were a member of the security branch in Bloemfontein in 1986?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: When did you join the police?

MR TSOAMETSI: On the 1st of December 1965.

MR VISSER: And when did you join the security branch in Bloemfontein?

MR TSOAMETSI: In 1973, in May.

MR VISSER: And which section did you work in the security branch?

MR TSOAMETSI: I was in the white section.

MR VISSER: And who was your commanding officer in that section?

MR TSOAMETSI: It was Rudie Crouse.

MR VISSER: Were there other members in that section apart from you and Rudie Crouse?

MR TSOAMETSI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Will you just mention the names of the other people.

MR TSOAMETSI: Warrant Officer Piet Naude, Warrant Officer Leon Kalitz and Sergeant Joseph Lichaba, L - i - c - h - a - b - a.

MR VISSER: Did you know Mr Ngo?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you tell the Committee when you remember today, since when you became aware of Mr Ngo and what did you think was he doing?

MR TSOAMETSI: If I remember very well, I say Ngo at our offices on the 5th floor. It was somewhere around 1983, but I could not speak to him because the rule was to look at the person and pass.  But I remember one day it happened that I asked him who's son he was, where was he born, and he said to me he was Ngo from Pietersberg and I said: "Oh well, I know the place.  I was once a student there, I went to school with Kaffir Ngo.
    And he said: "That was that is my uncle" and that was it.

MR VISSER: Are you aware that in 1986, Mr Ngo became a recruit constable, a student constable?

MR TSOAMETSI: Yes.

MR VISSER: In the period from March 1986 until July 1986, did you work with Mr Ngo while you were executing your duties in the white section?

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly repeat the period Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it is from March 1986 to July 1986.

MR TSOAMETSI: I was not working with him.

MR VISSER: Were you working with Mr Motsamai?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR VISSER: Can you remember today, in 1986 more or less, how many members were there in the security branch, in 1985/1986 here in Bloemfontein?

MR TSOAMETSI: It is difficult to remember, Sir.

MR VISSER: Right.  Mr Tsoametsi, you filed an affidavit, I'm sorry, signed an affidavit is that correct?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is that an affidavit in which you went to Pretoria to see Mr Wagner about?

MR TSOAMETSI: Yes.

MR VISSER: On that occasion, did Mr Motsamai accompany the group who went to Pretoria?

MR TSOAMETSI: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did anybody force you to go to Pretoria to see Mr Wagner?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR VISSER: Did anybody at any stage prescribe to you, told you what to say or what to write in the affidavit?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the truthfulness and correctness of the contents of your affidavit?

MR TSOAMETSI: Yes.

MR VISSER: In your affidavit you deny that you made yourself a party to any illegal or unlawful act, is that correct?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now Mr Ngo, has alleged that you took part in the kidnapping and assault of Mr White Mohapi during 1986.  First of all did you take part of Mr White Mohape?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR VISSER: Did you assault him at any stage?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR VISSER: It is alleged that orders were given by Lieutenant Shaw and Lieutenant Erasmus that you and Mamome had to go to the Bayswater police station to pick up White Mohape.  Well, actually it's not the Bayswater Police Station, it is alleged that you had to the Hilton Police Station so that you could follow White Mohape after his release. Did that happen?

MR TSOAMETSI: Sir, that did not happen. Let me shortly explain.  It was not possible for Shaw and Erasmus to give me instructions without first going to Rudi Crouse.

MR VISSER: And are you saying - did Mr Crouse give you any such instructions to follow White Mohapi and to kidnap him?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.  We were working in the white section.

MR VISSER: And Mr Ngo went on to say - page 25 of the application, Mr Chairman, went on to say that you and Mamome kidnapped Mr White Mohape and that you radioed the information to Ngo, Motsamai and Mthyala, spelt M-t-y-h-a-l-e.  Did that happen?

ADV MEMANI: : Mr Chairman, I do not want to unnecessarily delay these proceedings. My recollection is that Mr Ngo was in the company of the white policeman.  I think it was Cronje, the evidence was.

MR VISSER: Well then, my learned friend can put it to the witness Mr Chairman.  I'm putting to the witness as I read the application.
    At any event that Mr White Mhopi was taken to an open field between Bloemfontein - Bloemspruit rather, Bloemspruit and Shannon, where he was beaten up. Do you know anything about that?

MR TSOAMETSI: I did not know that, Sir.

MR VISSER: You are ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, my instructions are that Ngo was with Cronje, Mtyhala and Mamome in a vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: No, earlier on I said my recollection was that Mr Ngo was with Cronje and I'm saying that Mr Ngo has corrected me and he says that he was with Cronje, Mtyhala and Mamome as well.