Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: nd you can say you can see a lot in aminute and a half. You can ask me how do you see in a minute and a half, allthese things.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: If you are concentratingon one thing and your attention is taken away, the way it was, you have fullsort of focus on what is actually taking place and that is actually what I wasdoing.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So why couldn't you identify Mr Makoma?

<UNKNOWN>: s I said to you I am short sighted. I cannot see further. You put anythingin front of me, faces are vague at the distance of that nature, but I just knowthey weren't covered up, their faces weren't covered up. They were dark skinnedpeople and two people came in at different times.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was thereany other distinguishing feature of Mr Makoma's.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Man, they haddarkish coloured clothes, that is all and what I could say was what I've seenand that is what I have seen.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did they wear anything on theirheads?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he was attempting to identify anybody.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: The one had a cap on.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he is attemptingto identify anyone.

NORMAN ARENDSE: If the

<UNKNOWN>: hairman just allows me perhapsanother question, I will get to the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry, I didn't hear that Mr Smith?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: The one had a cap on.

<UNKNOWN>: cap on his head, like a balaclava.

<UNKNOWN>: s I said to you the way they came in, theynever came in disguised. You could actually make sure that those were the people,so what they actually did meant that whoever is going to actually identify them,they weren't concerned about it. They actually came to the church, fully preparedwhatever gives, whatever the cost may be, that is what they are going to do.

ADVARENDSE: We all know that, we accept that that they were prepared, thatit was planned. Did you make a statement to the police along the lines thatyou ...

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: There are so many that made statements to the policeat the stage, I felt that - to the press I spoke many a time to the press andin my affidavit to the press you can actually read what I am actually speakingabout, it is the same thing, nothing changed from that time to now.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So you didn't make a statement to the police?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I never made astatement to the police.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you never testified in court?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Man, to me I tried to I wouldn't say shield away from it, but I don'tlook at news, because I look at positive things, not negative things. When theseaccused were trailed, someone came to me and said do you know that the perpetratorsof St James had appeared. I said what, he said, don't you read the news, andI said I don't buy newspapers.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: ecauseI believe in a positive way and that is the way I look at things. Not the negativeway of bad stuff to run you down when you get up in the morning and look atthe news. That is all that you see, violence, crime, corruption.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes. In 1993, there was violence, crime, corruption, do you accept that?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Well, to a certain degree I do.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you acceptthat there was violence perpetrated against

<UNKNOWN>: lack people,

<UNKNOWN>: frican people bythe State, by the police, people were shot and killed?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Yes,I believe so through hearing from others.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well, from whatyou read in the newspapers, I take it at the time perhaps, you ...

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Maybe not fully on the newspaper. I am not politically minded.

<UNKNOWN>: s I said toyou, I don't involve in any of the political situations that is in. To the matterof fact, I don't even know who - our President I do know is Mandela, but therest of it, I don't even know.

<UNKNOWN>: ut you were born in DistrictSix?

<UNKNOWN>: ould I ask Mr Smith, Mr Smith in fact whatever waywe look at it, there is a confession that they in fact killed your wife. Theydon't deny that today. Whether she was killed by a bullet or by shrapnel, heeven wouldn't know, but that wouldn't pardon him. What he had done was accordingto the law wrong, he had been convicted and sentenced for murder. So, we arenot disputing and I don't think anybody could dispute that as far as the lawis concerned, he is guilty, he had been found guilty of murder and it was murder.So that is not what is at issue today. The only thing we have got to consider,is whether in terms of the

<UNKNOWN>: ct, amnesty could be granted and in that respectI don't think, it is necessary Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, to go into details and try to let'sbe honest, nobody could have observed everything that happened there, it happenedin seconds. So I believe Mr Smith is honestly relating what he in fact saw.

<UNKNOWN>: nd I don't think it would be of any advantage to us, it could serve any purposeif perhaps he had seen things differently from what the applicant said. It couldn'thelp us in coming to a decision.

CHAIRPERSON: This put on the basis thatwhat this witness, Mr Smith now says, proves that the applicants have not madea full disclosure and if that is based entirely on the fact that there is adifference in his version, from the applicant's version, that difference ison the matters of detail, you know. That doesn't throw any light on whetherthe event occurred or not, it is just on a matter of detail and that differencemight be an honest difference of memory, recollection of events and so on.

ADVARENDSE: We are perfectly happy to leave it on that basis. Mr Smith, atthe time in 1993, we were still being ruled by a White minority, you acceptthat?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I do agree.

<UNKNOWN>: nd political organisationshad different agendas? Do you accept that? In terms of what they wanted andwhat their vision for the future was?

<UNKNOWN>: t that time there wasa process of elections carrying on and I knew, you know, looking at the situationthe country is in, a change is going to come about.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes,I think it is well-known that there were talks at Kempton Park, I think youare referring to that, those negotiations, not elections with respect, but therewere negotiations.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: The negotiations, you know, with this youfeel that if that is taking place, why have the violence to back that up? Youcan have a peaceful settlement through a different manner than violence. Waittill after that, the outcome of that and if you see, you are not getting whatyou actually standing for, then by all means, apply yourself to what you thinkis fit, but in this manner, I don't see they could do that.

<UNKNOWN>: ut do you accept as a fact that there were nevertheless organisations who differedon the manner in which they are going to bring about change in this country?There were some, just to narrow it down, there were some who believed that theyshould do so through sitting around a table and there were others who believedthat they should do so through the barrel of a gun?

<UNKNOWN>: s I'vesaid before, I don't read the news, it is only what I hear from people and tome, as I heard, there are people out there called

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , whatever it is, thatwere taking offence in that manner.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So do you vaguely rememberthat

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was a militant organisation?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Man, to a certain extentit can, it rings a bell vaguely there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes. The compositionof the church, the different nationalities you were referring to. Do you acceptthat one couldn't expect the applicants here today to have known that?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Normally, the people, as I've said before, we attended the church,you find out, you familiarise yourself with one seat and you stick to that seatand in the front rows, there were

<UNKNOWN>: lacks, outright