Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

UNKNOWN: In the bundle on page 3, if you look there, paragraph 10a to the very last paragraph.  I am going to read this to you, the last paragraph. It reads as follows, "I believe that on the invitation of the Bop government the right wingers, including the AWB and AVF came to Bophuthatswana."
	According to your own version, the AWB was there on the invitation from the Bop government.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It is so, they came here and they attacked the people of Bophuthatswana.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think what is being put to you by Mr Van Der Berg is that, stressing that it was on the invitation of the Bophuthatswana government that they went.  Because it says, "I believe that on the invitation of the Bop government the right wingers came to Bophuthatswana".

UNKNOWN: Because, you see, if the AWB came to  Bophuthatswana on the invitation of the government, surely they would have formed part of the same team.  In other words the AWB comes there on invitation of the government and of course they all form part of the same team, they'll strive for the same goals or strive to obtain the same goals.

ADV MOTATA: But Mr Van Der Berg does it matter, because if you have regard to the page you referred to earlier, his informant, the neighbour said the  Bophuthatswana Defence Force was not happy with the AWB being there.  Now if we come back and focus on your question that they would have formed the same base, that fighting for the same ideals, but remember has already shown some dissatisfaction, that is your line of cross-examination.  It doesn't talley if you come with such disjointed cross-examination.

ADV SIGODI: Further, because the applicant has stated that ...  The way I think you should put the question is that at the time this happened, did he know, that was your question, if these people had come with the invitation of the Bop government.  And he has said he didn't.  I think  the proper way is to ask that when did you know about it and that at the time that you filled in the form, did you know about this or had he known about it before.  Just to clarify when he got to know that these people had come on the invitation of the Bop government.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, can you then tell the Commission when did you learn that the AWB came to Bophuthatswana on the invitation of the Bop government?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I knew before writing the statement.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Menyatsoe, was it before or after the incident that you got to know whether the, whether it was at the invitation of the Bop government?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I learnt about this on the 11th, on the day of this incident.

ADV MOTATA: Was it, sorry ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Was it, sorry.  Was it before or after the shooting that you learnt about it?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It was before the shooting.

UNKNOWN: How did you determine that, Mr Menyatsoe?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It is because of the fact that we were told that the AWB were killing people and also what I saw happening in front of my eyes, the AWB shooting people.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, if you look on page 10 of the bundle, paragraph 1.1 to 1.4, was that political goals that you are submitting to the Commission?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, can we turn to page 28, please of the bundle.  And the following paragraph, I'd like to continue with that, "The following morning at about 800 hours I report for duty at the police headquarters at TTA.  When I arrived at the work I was issued with an R4 rifle and we are informed not to leave the camp.  One of the senior officials is talked to us to guard the TTA and could be attacked by the right-wingers."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Menyatsoe, what is the TTA?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Chairman, TTA is stood for Tswana Territorial Authority.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: So was you instructions not to leave the camp.  Is that correct?  Your instructions was not to leave the camp, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Was your instruction not to leave the camp?  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: How many times, I think he said it twice.  The instructions were not ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: I apologise, I didn't hear the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the answer was in the positive.  The instructions were not to leave the camp and the answer was "Yes".

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, you agree with me that when you shot the AWB members that attacks at that stage was already finished, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat your question.

UNKNOWN: Let's go to page 28, maybe I should first submit this paragraph to you.  If you look at the paragraph in the middle of the page
"I went to the kitchen to have my lunch. As I was having lunch with colleagues I heard gunshots fired from outside the building.  The shooting was continuous and I became worried about my safety.  We then decided to go outside to see what was happening."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what is the question?

UNKNOWN: How long did this firing last?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I cannot recall at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us an indication.  Was it a few seconds, was it a minute?  How long was this firing?  How long did it last?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not recall.

UNKNOWN: Sir, when you walked to the blue Mercedes was the shooting, did the shooting stop at that stage?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: The shooting was continuous.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I don't want to interrupt.  Maybe my learned friend can just say, at what stage is he referring to be more precise and exact.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it, I understood, just confirm it and also confirm it with the witness that when you say, when you walked to the blue Mercedes Benz, that is after the occupants had got out of the vehicle and you went towards them when they were lying on the ground. Is that the stage you asking about?

UNKNOWN: The time at which I am referring to now is that vehicles drove past and then shooting occurred, that shooting incident did not take very long, then it stopped.  That is when the Mercedes Benz stopped and when the Mercedes stopped then there were no more shots fired ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That was after he himself had shot at the Mercedes?

UNKNOWN: Yes, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: It is at this stage, so the question is, when you walked up to the blue Mercedes Benz at the stage when the three men were out of the vehicle, had the shooting stopped at that stage?  Is that the question?

UNKNOWN: Indeed.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have explained that there was shots going on at that time continuously.

UNKNOWN: When did it stop?  At one stage or at some stage it had to stop.  When did this occur?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: After having shot these men and turning back to TTA, I didn't hear any further shots.

ADV MOTATA: Just to interpose, Mr Van Der Berg.  Mr Menyatsoe, when you went to the Mercedes and these three gentlemen you perceived or who you were aware were AWB members, when you went to them, was there still shooting occurring?  When you went to them and they had been outside the Mercedes Benz?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, there was still gun firing.

UNKNOWN: Where did the shots came from?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not know but I just heard the noise, the firing.

UNKNOWN: Did it come from the blue Mercedes Benz?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I said I do not know, I just heard the gun firing continuing.

UNKNOWN: So in other words, while you were hearing the gun shots you were walking towards the blue Mercedes Benz, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I said that.

UNKNOWN: And when you got there, at this Mercedes Benz, were there still gun shots fired?