Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR RICHARD: Did you at any stage, and I'm led to believe that it might be so, take anyone to a disused mine shaft and suggest that there might be bodies down the mine shaft?

JOHN MORGAN: I think I'm saying I will not take anyone to a disused mine.

MR RICHARD: So in the circumstances there's no basis on which you might allege that you have knowledge that there was anything, or anyone, or any body down any mine shaft?

JOHN MORGAN: If I will take people to a disused mine shaft, that will mean I'm not sane upstairs.  I'm insane.  I am quite sane.

MR RICHARD: ... answer, it eliminates a possibility.  Now you gave evidence as to the genesis of the Football Club.  Is that correct?

JOHN MORGAN: Please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: Did you give evidence as to how the Football Club came into existence?

JOHN MORGAN: I said I don't know how it emerged, but we did go to fetch the jerseys, the uniforms, but I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: What we are trying to establish is the true facts, and when we have canvassed a particular area, unless you have something opposite to that - [intervention] Wait a bit, I'm speaking, I think I mean that we ought not to be going over the same ground. I mean otherwise we will have all of these lawyers, and we won't finish with one witness.  I had hoped we were going to have stopped at six, having finished with Mr Morgan.  He's had a fairly long stint now in the witness box, and he has indicated he's not as young as some of us.  I wonder whether you can indicate how much more you have got, so that I should decide whether we should adjourn at this point.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  One of the rules of evidence is that each party, as was being said right now by your good self, should be given the opportunity to rebut or admit another party's version.  It goes back to Genesis.  When Adam was confronted by God with the apple, God did say something ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, yes. That is a story I should know.

DR BORAINE: There's no mention of apple in the bible.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please, I have said, look let's just understand each other.  If you have a point for rebuttal, please put that point.  We have said that that is what we are seeking to be able to do and not, as it were, following as it were the rules of the Court, and you've kept calling us a tribunal. We're not a tribunal.  We are a Commission seeking to establish as complete a picture as possible, what I tried to say this morning. I'm not rebuking you, I'm just saying, please, for the sake of everybody, when you have point of rebuttal, can you just say, this is your version, my client says this, what have you, are you able to respond to that?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will put the point about the origins about the football team as shortly as possible.  Is it not correct that at the time that Mr Richardson  joined Mrs Mandela's household as the football coach, there were bodyguards, MK cadres, and displaced people in the garden?  In the backyard?

JOHN MORGAN: Must I answer?  There were people in the backyard, and those who will be singing, but I don't like this merry-go-round sort of thing as if I'm insane.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I've already told them that they there should be improvement in the whole thing. Let's go on, let's not keep going round and round on the same issue.  So when they ask you a question, just answer back and tell them if it's the truth or it's not the truth. So answer his question appropriately. He wants to know if there were MK's, bodyguards, and people who seek refuge, and so on, before the formation of the football club.  Is it like that?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, it is like that.

MR RICHARD: Mr Morgan, your answer is yes.  My proposition is correct, is that as I understand it?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, was it not then the case that your employer, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, decided that a football team would be a good idea to take people's time to occupy them?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm sorry, you are asking him to find out what is in her head.  I mean I would have thought that you people in court would say that that was not a fair question to ask.  I think you'll have to ask Mrs Mandela when she is in the witness stand.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman, my question is, was it not decided collectively in the community of that house that a football team should be put together with a coach, yes or no?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, there has got to be a coach who will be the one to coach how to play.

CHAIRPERSON: ... heard your question, or they have not translated what you asked.

MR RICHARD: Let me try a third time.  I will sketch it again and I will go slowly.   There were displaced people, men whose occupation was to guard and protect Mrs Mandela, MK cadres, and people around the property.  Now they all need an occupation, something to do, so was it not so that a decision was made collectively amongst the people that something should be done with them such as form a football club. [Intervention]  You answered yes.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I answered yes.

MR RICHARD: Now ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask again, how long are you going for, because if you are going for a substantial time, then I will have us adjourn, and be fair to him.  It's been a long day, it's been a long day for all of us.

MR RICHARD: My learned colleague on my right has indicated that he also has questions. My questioning should be no more than another fifteen minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, I mean, that we will need to adjourn, and I think too that I have been very generous with limited cross-examination.  I have given a very expended -  I'm going to be very strict as of now because I think, I mean, that we are letting this roll far too long.  You are going to have to say, the witness has said these, I have one, two, three, four points that I want to put to the witness, and if you don't do that in ten minutes, the guillotine is going to apply.  I think, I mean, that I have been over-generous. You'll have to hold over your questions to tomorrow, and I'm not going to give you fifteen minutes, I'm giving you five minutes.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman I will prepare five one-line questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I am very sorry that we have had to do this, but I think we were hoping we would make a very significant impression on today's roll.  We have I think three other witnesses we should have called today.  It seems to me that we are going to have to be prepared to meet possibly on Saturday, because the TRC has a problem. We have to finish, because we've got other engagements the following weekend.  We had thought one week would in fact enable us to do this.  If we are not finished, despite my very firm interpretation as of tomorrow of "limited", then I'm giving notice here that we are going to have to consider using Saturday to complete the roll.  But thank you very, very much all of you. We adjourn to resume, maybe we should resume at half past eight.

MR RICHARD: I shall be here at half past eight.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll resume at half past eight. Thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS