Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I remember well, Chairperson, we went to the first house and he was not there and we went to his girlfriend's place, that is where we found him.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is this first house from Roma?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It is not far Chairperson, it could be two streets from where we are here.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would be in the district of Roma University?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: If you'll just bear with me a short moment, Chairperson, there's just something that's arisen now.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst he's doing that, I asked questions around Mbulelo to the other two applicants, that is your colleagues, that according to the documentation we have here is that Ngono left Lesotho around September and came back around March the following year, that would be Buthelezi, we've got a statement here, and I'm not saying that is correct, I just want your comment.  If Buthelezi is right, then the abduction or the fetching of Ngono in Lesotho in December, couldn't have happened, because he wouldn't have been there.  Do you have any comment?  Because Buthelezi says he was a comrade and he knew movements of other people, for instance Mbulelo Ngono.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, all these things happened in December 1987, if it is necessary I would say, I have already mentioned when this thing happened I was also involved in other matters in church and I still have those dates, so I would not agree with Mr Buthelezi about what he's saying.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR LAX: How come you remember everything attached to the time of your, of this baptism and around the church, but anything besides that you're not clear about?  How is it so that everything that's related to this, you suddenly remember it very neatly in one big package, but all the detail is vague to you?  What's made this all stick in your memory so clearly but yet other things on the outside you're not clear about?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I have said that the fetching of these people happened at the time when I was going to make a ceremony in my family.  It was a very important ceremony in my family.  It was important because this was my first child and it was my first child that I was going to baptise at the church, so this coincided with the fetching of these people.  This can be the reason why I do not forget about this incident.  These are my reasons, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well you see one would expect you to have less of a clear memory about it, because your mind was focused on other things at that time.  You were so busy worrying about all the issues around this baptism of your son, why would you have paid, all the more reason why you should have forgotten about these facts, rather than remember them.  Added to which you weren't there a lot of the time, as you said you took time off to go here, you took time to off to go there.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson, but you must remember that what I have said before this Committee is what I remember and that is what happened at that time.  It is unfortunate that there are those things that I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you joined this unit seven months before these incidents of December 1987, and earlier you said to us you handled, it was an estimation you gave, 13 informers, where were your informers operating?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, they were operating in Lesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you having contact with your informers?  I know some were co-handled and you mentioned about four which were co-handled, but did you receive any information from your informers around the activities of the liberation movements in and around Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes Chairperson, I had contacts with them, but not all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And in the seven months you joined this unit, you never received information about Ms Betty Boom, Ms Nomasonto Mashiya, Mr Tax Sejanamane, you never received anything of that nature?  You only heard about them when you were told to accompany the others with Betty Boom, that you first became aware of her presence in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Because some of the people, the documentation says that they arrived in Lesotho round about August/September of that year, so when you fetched them they had been at least for two months in Lesotho, that is October and November they were already in Lesotho.  You heard nothing about that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And Betty Boom was a highly placed person who had to conduct ANC or MK activities around the Free State, she was the chief Commander of that unit.  You didn't hear that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I heard that Chairperson, that Betty had a very high position in her organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: After we have fetched her to the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: You subsequently discussed Betty Boom with your colleagues?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It was not a discussion, Chairperson, I was just being told.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That's Mr Jantjie.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that before you fetched Nomasonto or after?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We were on our way to fetch Nomasonto, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Jagga not present when you fetched Nomasonto?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson, he was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: But your informers never came to you with any knowledge, because if I listen to your evidence, you had nothing, you sprung into activity only in December when the four were fetched, otherwise it was a lull with you for the seven months.  Would I be correct in summarising what I heard in the manner I did?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There's no-one amongst my informers, Chairperson, who brought information about these people, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you still flatly deny what I think Kadi said about you, that you tortured him during 1986, and he mentions some members of this unit ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon Chairperson, may you please restart the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I say, do you still flatly deny the assertions made by Kadi that he was tortured during 1986, and amongst others he mentions people in your unit, this unit of four and your chief, that is Fouche?  Do you deny his assertions?  I'm not saying they are true, but are you still denying that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I will explain and say that I know nothing about Kadi.  I asked Jantjie, after I've heard about this yesterday I asked him about Kadi, he told me that Kadi is Wax.  As far as I know Chairperson, I have never worked with this person known as Wax.

CHAIRPERSON: And he further said he was successfully recruit, because he once went with you to Lesotho, you were there, and he mentions the names
"During the same year, 1986, myself, Mike Jantjie, Koki Thulo, Jackie Tsolo, Celo ...(indistinct) Robertshaw, Capt Fouche and Lieut du Plessis left for Lesotho.  We kidnapped the ANC Chief Representative, Mr Mageta."

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I dispute this, Chairperson, I know nothing about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know about Mr Mageta in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes I knew about Mr Mageta in Lesotho, Chairperson.  I don't know whether he was the ANC Secretary at that time, but what I know is that he was one of the leaders within the ANC in Lesotho at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you start knowing about him?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would explain this, Chairperson.  There was a person we used to work with at Ladybrand Security Branch, he was an old man, he was Mr Mogomo, he used to discuss about Mr Mageta.  He used to tell us that they used to attend school together, but Mr Mogomo is the person who told me about Mr Mageta and he told me that he was involved in politics in Lesotho and that he was one of the leaders of the ANC in Lesotho.