Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-31

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because exactly what he said is in dispute.

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain why that appears in that statement?

SHEILA MKHIZE: I will say Mr Chairperson, whatever appears in this statement, is what I was told by Mr Shandu.

CHAIRPERSON: He disputes that.

SHEILA MKHIZE: If he does dispute it, then I don't know at what point, because I would say it is a lie, because after obtaining a statement from him, I read it out to him and he confirmed that all that was written down, was true.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No questions?

MS MOHAMED: No.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

MR PANDAY: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I call Joshua Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, what language would you wish to speak?

JOSHUA CELE: I wish to testify in Zulu, Mr Chair.

JOSHUA CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MS THABETHE: Mr Cele, is it correct that you are an investigator working for the Truth Commission?

JOSHUA CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: Taking into consideration that you heard my questioning Ms Mhkize, I will take you through to the statement right away.  Did you go to Westville prison to take a statement from Goodman Malevu?

JOSHUA CELE: Yes, I did.

MS THABETHE: What was the reason for you to go to him and to take a statement?

JOSHUA CELE: I was assisting Ms Mkhize in investigating the application of Mr Mpanza.

MS THABETHE: Was Ms Mkhize present when you took the statement?

JOSHUA CELE: Yes, she was present.

MS THABETHE: Is this the statement that appears, hand-written on page 6 to 10 of the bundle?  I would like my learned colleague, Mr Panday to show the witness please.

JOSHUA CELE: Yes, it is.

MS THABETHE: The same issue is in dispute, Mr Cele, and I would like you to respond.  Mr Malevu has testified to the fact that it is incorrect what is written on paragraph 10 of his statement, to the effect that they made the same application with Mr Ziba Mpanza and Mr Shandu?

JOSHUA CELE: What I put down on the statement was what was communicated to me by Mr Malevu.  I could not have applicated any other thing.

MS THABETHE: What language did you use when you were taking the statement from him?

JOSHUA CELE: We were communicating in Zulu.

MS THABETHE: After you had taken the statement from him, did you read it to him, before he signed it?

JOSHUA CELE: Yes, I did and he also read it on his own.

MS THABETHE: Is it also correct Mr Cele, that you faxed a copy of his statement to him later on?

JOSHUA CELE: Indeed, he requested a copy, however the copy machine was not working at prison, so I went back to the office and faxed him the copy.  He also telephoned me to say that he had received it.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chair.    Mr Cele, it was Mr Malevu's evidence that after the statement was taken down by you, you asked him whether you should read it to him, is that - sorry and then Mr Malevu said no, because at that time he was going to take his meal and he was pushed for time, and therefore the statement was never read to him.  Can you comment on that?

JOSHUA CELE: That is not true.   When we spoke with Mr Malevu, I gained the impression that he was a knowledgeable and intelligent person, to the extent that when he read the statement himself, he requested that I remove some bits that I had written down.  I do not understand how he claims that.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would he have asked for you to remove such?  Is there anything that is removed from the statement?

JOSHUA CELE: Yes, on page 8, paragraph 8 on the same page.

CHAIRPERSON: The words "from Empangeni" has been removed, deleted?

JOSHUA CELE: Yes, after he had read it, he said he was not certain that he had resided at Empangeni.  However, he knew the area, that is why he do not stand close to Tekozani when the crime was committed.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Cele, this faxed copy that you said you sent to Mr Malevu at prison, he says he never received that, can you comment?

JOSHUA CELE: Yes, I would comment.  Mr Malevu used to telephone us to find out what was happening about his application.  On one such occasion, he confirmed that he had received the fax which had been addressed to somebody who worked at the prison.  The confirmation that he had received it, was from him.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

MR PANDAY: Just one question.  Mr Cele, when you completed the statement, did Mr Malevu at any stage appear to be in a hurry to get to taking his meals, because he has indicated that he trusted you and that he needed to get to his meals?

JOSHUA CELE: No, we spent a lot of time discussing this issue with Mr Malevu,  we spent about two hours, and it was also in the morning, so I am not certain as to which meal he wanted to take at that time.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, nothing further Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Are you comfortable with English?

JOSHUA CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of day did you take this statement?

JOSHUA CELE: It was a mistake that it is not reflected on the statement, but when I arrived, it was around ten o'clock when we started discussing this matter with Mr Malevu.

CHAIRPERSON: One last question, when did he start phoning you enquiring about the application?

JOSHUA CELE: A few days after we had been to the prison, because he had requested that I leave the office telephone numbers for him to contact us, should there be a need.  I would say perhaps after two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you went to see him as an implicated person, he never contacted you about an application?

JOSHUA CELE: Well, he had never contacted me, as well as for the fact that I was assisting Sheila in this matter, because this was her case.  I was seeing him for the first time on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: And he had access to a telephone?

JOSHUA CELE: I am not certain of prison regulations.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but he was able to phone you, so he must have had access to a telephone to phone you?

JOSHUA CELE: I will say yes, because I would be speaking to him directly.

CHAIRPERSON: And he would be able to phone the offices of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission at his own request?

JOSHUA CELE: Yes, I think that will be so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS THABETHE: That is all Mr Chair, thank you.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chair.  Very briefly, it is my instructions that the applicants acted and they insist that they did, because of the political situation which existed in Mkababa and Empangeni.
	Mr Chairman and honourable members of the Committee, I am aware that given the nature of the testimony lead here, it becomes increasingly difficult for me to put forward a concrete basis for submissions, and to say that I have been embarrassed is putting it mildly, but I leave the decision ...

CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate your position, Ms Mohamed.

MS MOHAMED: On that basis, Mr Chairman and honourable members of the Committee, I leave the decision in your hands.  Thank you.

MR PANDAY: They have no real case.

MS THABETHE: The same applies, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take time to give a decision in this matter.  I think that brings an end to the roll.

MS THABETHE: Not really, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What have we got left?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I will start with the matter of Songomoni Pillay, which was on the roll and put it on record that we received a letter from him, dated the 23rd of August 2000 where he withdraws his application, and I would like to put that on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?