Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

MR KOPI: (s.u.o.)

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Kopi, yesterday we were at the stage when you were giving hypothetical questions when I asked you about the times when you left the office and time when you got back to the office.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should take your hand from your mouth.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  We were at the stage where you were given hypothetical answers to my questions about when you left the office and when you got back to the office.  Do you remember that?

MR KOPI: Yes Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Tell us, do you agree with me that you should have, you must have left the office at about twelve on that day.

MR KOPI: Sir, I shall explain the best way.  When you the informer phones you and say to you let us meet between twelve and half past twelve I'm the first person to leave and arrive first at our meeting point.  Maybe we agree that there are point A and point B, if you go to point A you find that point A is far from point B.

ADV MEMANI: The question, for the last time.  You told us that you arrived back at the office at about eleven and you stayed for about thirty minutes.  You must have left the office at about twelve or half past twelve.  Do you agree with me?

MR KOPI: Let me clear it firstly.  I said I could have stayed in the office 30 to 35 minutes, left the office at about half past twelve.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be about half past eleven, surely.

ADV MEMANI: But I'm saying the latest Chairperson to give him leeway.

MR KOPI: If the appointment was between half past twelve and to one, then I would ...[indistinct]

ADV MEMANI: ...[indistinct] to the office about twelve thirty.

MR KOPI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now tell me what is it that you recall specifically  that you got back to the office about eleven on the first occasion and you got back again at about three thirty but you can't recall at about what time you left?

MR KOPI: It was because my informer told me a sensitive message so that I should come back early so that I should report back to my commander.

ADV MEMANI: Now again what you've said is not an answer to the question.  I will proceed to the next question.  You told us that you remained in the office until left about four because you had an appointment for half past four.

MR KOPI: Let me put it clearly that I arrived at half past three then I went to the fifth floor, then I went to the toilet. Before I went to the toilet I saw that those people were still in the toilet and when I returned I saw them again in the toilet then I collected my belongings and then went down to the fourth floor so that we should discuss this issue with my commander.  At 4 o'clock, then I left because because I knew that I have an appointment at half past four.  I must report first home so that I should know they need.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman may I enquire whether the interpretation was correct with regard to having seen them in the toilet?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Visser has unfortunately has not listened to the witness, but maybe ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's just ask him where did you see them when you were on the fifth floor, where did you see these people?

MR KOPI: When I got to the toilet, I passed through the kitchen, I saw them in the kitchen.

ADV MEMANI: Now what appointment did you have at half past four.

MR KOPI: It's with another informer.

ADV MEMANI: Was it your informer?

MR KOPI: That is correct, that's my informer.

ADV MEMANI: Now did you go back to the office after you saw the informer.

MR KOPI: No, I didn't go back to the office.  I contacted my sectional head and reported to him.

ADV MEMANI: Well, you know I find it strange that on a day when there was so important work to be done in the office you were going on with routine.

MR KOPI: We wanted to find out what would the informer say. Maybe he was going to tell us about the nineteen people but he told me something different which I'm not able to tell you now.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Kopi, I'm told that you are the person who drove the vehicle, actually took the people to Glen police station after the ...

MR KOPI: The are times when I took these people to that Glen police station.  It might be the second or the third day but I'm not sure, but I know that I did take these people to Glen Police Station.

ADV MEMANI: But it was yourself and Motsamai who took them to Glen Police Station on the first day?

MR KOPI: No, on the first day I didn't take anybody to Glen Police Station.

ADV MEMANI: That was on the day subsequent to the 6th, you took them to the doctor.

MR KOPI: I don't understand, do you mean the second or the third day?

ADV MEMANI: Days you drove them to the doctor.

MR KOPI: The were people whom I took them to the doctor, but I remember the day where I took these specific people to the doctor.

ADV MEMANI: Took them together with Motsamai.

MR KOPI: If there was nobody who would accompany me to take these people to the doctor, my sectional commander would send somebody to accompany me to that particular doctor.

ADV MEMANI: Now is it not correct, Mr Kopi, that you were Du Plooy's interpreter.

MR KOPI: If there was necessary for you to interpret you'd do so but if you were still interpreting and the informer phones you then you leave that work of interpreting then you consult your informer.

ADV MEMANI: You see I'm told that on that day you were interpreting for Du Plooy.

MR KOPI: No, I didn't interpret for Du Plooy at all.

ADV MEMANI: You must have knew he was your interpreter, he ...[indistinct]  your officer, he called you back into the office and he needed an interpreter, you must have interpreted for him.

MR KOPI: He may call you to his office and say to you, then he say I want you to interpret for me then you would tell him that I have an appointment with an informer.  If that informer phones me, then you do that.  Occasionally.

CHAIRPERSON: We want to know, did you in fact interpret for Du Plooy on this first day?

MR KOPI: I did say that, I haven't interpreted for Du Plooy on the first day.  I just forget the white person whom I was with on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't interpret for Du Plooy, right, that's what you say, on the first day.

MR KOPI: Yes I didn't interpret for Du Plooy on the first day.

ADV MEMANI: For anyone else?

CHAIRPERSON: He interpreted for a white officer, he cannot remember which it was.

ADV MEMANI: Who do you think it could have been?

MR KOPI: At times you work with many white officers so I just forgot whom I did interpret for.

ADV MEMANI: Do you remember that in your evidence in chief and in your evidence throughout cross-examination you told us that what you did was to take particulars of persons, you never mentioned that you interpreted for any white officer.

UNKNOWN: My learned friend didn't listen to the evidence, Mr Chairman, he made it quite clear that he acted as an interpreter when necessary.
:	But there was a white officer sitting there who was taking notes.

ADV MEMANI: My recollection, Mr Chairman, was that this was his functions generally that's what he does generally, the office, but when he came to this specific day, he told us that he came in at about eleven, he spoke to Du Plooy, and then he started picking people from the office.  He stayed there for about fifteen minutes.  I asked him what he was doing, he said that he was taking their details, their particulars, and if they didn't want to give information, he took them back.  He spoke to two persons, two to three persons.

CHAIRPERSON: I interrogated one or two people, when we interrogated them they will be arrestee, I raised questions about the word, myself and a white officer taking notes.

ADV MEMANI: As the chair pleases.  Now, Mr Kopi, I am told you have never had an informer, in fact.

MR KOPI: The person who says I did not have informers, is playing, he wanted me to tell who my informers were.