Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: After that I would say during the day around past two to three, I indicated to Ghani that I wanted to go and take a bath.  We requested Jeff and he said no let's wait and take guard and we requested him that he release us and he then offered to take us home so that we could take and bath and he would wait for us.  When we left Orlando West we took the direction towards the Orlando stadium, driving under the bridge.  We took a right towards the police station and we would take our left at the library and on turning at the turnoff Jeff indicated that he had forgotten a paper and he made a U-turn back towards the police station to buy a newspaper and before he parked his car and he said:  "Here are the boys." and on looking I could identify some of these boys.  We bought the newspaper, we saw these boys walking up towards the station and we followed them.  They took a passage, they were talking and pointing and when they approached nine and eleven, that is nine hundreds and eleven hundreds numbers in Orlando, we stopped them ... (intervention)

MR BRINK: Chairman I'm sorry to interrupt.  I wonder if my learned friend can just get his witness to get to the point.  I don't think it really matters which nine hundred or eleven hundred rows and buying newspapers and things, quite irrelevant with respect, can we get to the point?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that Mr Thandakubona we are here especially to hear about the manner in killing of the certain six people, we're not so much here about the newspapers and the buying of newspapers, we're here about the killing and assault of six people.  Let's talk about that, that which we are here for.  You understand the point?  Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Thandakubona then at what stage did you intercept this youths?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Around three in the afternoon.

MR TLOUBATLA: The place, where was it?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: It was at the passage.

MR TLOUBATLA: And after you intercepted them?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: After stopping them Ghani remained behind with a gun, guarding them, Jeff and myself went to pick up comrade Pitso (?) and on arrival we indicated to comrade Pitso that we had now apprehended the boys.  We started his vehicle and we went to eleven and we brought them into the two vehicles and we drove them to Jeff's house in Orlando West.

MR TLOUBATLA: What time was it when you arrived now back at Jeff's place?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I didn't have a watch but I think it was around the same time, three or past three but I cannot commit myself to the exactness of the time.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then after arriving there can you tell us what did you do on arriving there?  You in particular and then you can tell us about the others, but basically we want you activities after this boys were brought into that house.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived we got out of the vehicle and went into the house and the damage was indicated to them and the interrogation started.  We wanted to know ... (intervention)

MR TLOUBATLA: Where did the interrogation start, where did you do it.  You heard questions from Mr Ameen, the victim's lawyer saying that people ... (intervention)

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: The interrogation started in the kitchen.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then you also heard that they was made to undress and then left naked and then assaulted at the - would you confirm that, is that what happened, where they undressed, all of them?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I do not remember anybody naked but yes they were beaten up.  I do not remember anybody being undressed.

MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, just tell us then you started assaulting them in the kitchen and then where did you go to - as it is said that you went into the bedrooms, is that what happened?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I was not stuck to one room in which the interrogation was taking place.  There was one person whom I was beating in the kitchen.  I went to another bedroom and I was moving between the bedrooms beating them up, assaulting them, that's how I can put it.

MR TLOUBATLA: Can you recall any specific weapons that you used when you were assaulting this boys.  Any specific weapons that you specifically used when you were assaulting the boys?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I used my bear hands mostly, fists and (indistinct), kicking them.

MR TLOUBATLA: Just out of interest, before I forgot this point, how old were you then at that time?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I was 20 years old.

MR TLOUBATLA: Okay.  So you never used any specific weapon, the pliers, a hammer, an axe, the part of a gun or anything, you just used your hands?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes if my memory still serves me well, I used my bear hands.  I did not have a gun on that particular day.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then, until what time did you assault this boys and torture them?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: They were assaulted for quite a long time.  They were assaulted until dusk.

MR TLOUBATLA: Were they crying, asking for help and when you were assaulting them what specifically did you require them to do or to say?

CHAIRPERSON: You are asking a very compound question, were they crying, did they ask for help.  What are you looking for?  I think take it in instalments.  Did they scream for help?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: People in pain react, they cry.  As their cries could not be heard by the immediate next door neighbours, the person next door did not know what was happening.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then as you were assualting them, what is it that you wanted them to do, what is it that you were asking them to do?  In other words the reason for the assault.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: First of all we assaulted them because we wanted to know who their leaders were.  Immediately when we found a T-shirt associated with the UDF we confirmed that these are the people - we wanted to know who gave them instructions, that is why we assaulted them.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng you mean that at that time you didn't know who were the leaders of the UDF, at that time.  You say you asked them who were their leaders, didn't you know the leaders of the UDF at that time?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: We knew prominent UDF leaders but we basically wanted to know who organised them in Orlando West and we also wanted to know where their camps were.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you wanted to know who their leaders were, if any, who had ordered them to do this thing.  Is that what you're saying?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then ultimately just tell us what happened after you now, let's say now late just before you had to leave that house, what happened?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I will refer to myself.  On that day I'd say during the weekend Kabelo's car broke down or - and in the evening we had to go and pick the car up.  He had to use it.  Kabelo and myself took Jeff's car, drove to town to pick up this other vehicle.  We came back with the vehicle.  Kabelo drove his Renault, went straight to Orlando West.  I went to Orlando and I followed him to Orlando West and when I arrived the Chev had already gone, that is the first group.  I came across comrade Sam at the door and I asked him what was happening now ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Please Mr Tloubatla try to control you witness then we can take notes and follow.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you, thank you Madam.  Right you apparently went out with, with whom did you go out?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: With Kabelo.

MR TLOUBATLA: And you later came back.  You say that the Chevrolet had already left.  Did I understand correctly?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct, that is when we came back from town, the Chevrolet has left already.