Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Is his application on page 25?

MR RICHARD: Page 25, Chairperson.  I call him to be sworn.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.  Mr Mtsweni, will you please stand to take the oath?  Please sit down so long, just give us a second.  Have you got any idea what language Mr Phillip Mtsweni will use?

MR RICHARD: Northern Sotho, isn't it?   Zulu?

CHAIRPERSON: Zulu as well?   All right, then we need the lady here.  We have to wait for her.  Mr Richard the spelling of the surname, is it correct as it appears in the papers, the application papers?  M-t-s-w-e-n-i?

MR RICHARD: Let me confirm.  Have you got an ID book?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: No, I haven't got my ID book here.

MR RICHARD: Is the spelling right, Mtsweni?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  Yes, I was just concerned, I thought I saw somewhere Motsweni, but then that problem is solved.  All right, Mr Mtsweni, I think you can now stand to take the oath.  Give your full names for the record please?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you have sworn?   Can you give us your names too?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: My name?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please?

INTERPRETER: I can hardly hear the speaker, because he is standing.

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Phillip Mtsweni.

CHAIRPERSON: You have sworn that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, do you confirm that?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: That is fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?  Just say so help me God?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I do swear that the testimony that I am about to give, will be the truth, and so help me God.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Please sit down Mr Mtsweni.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  Before we start, let's understand the relationships between the various parties.  Would you please explain to us what is your relationship with the first witness we called today, that is July Mtsweni?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: July Mtsweni is my brother's son, only by the surname, not blood brothers.

MR RICHARD: Emma Mtsweni, what is her relationship to you, what was her relationship to you?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Emma Mtsweni, my father and her husband, they are brothers.

MR RICHARD: And then Speelman Mtsweni, one of your co-applicants, what is his relationship to you?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: As I have explained, it is the same relationship as July.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, you heard July Mtsweni's evidence this morning, is that not correct?  Were you here when July Mtsweni gave evidence?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I heard July Mtsweni when he gave his evidence before this Committee, but my evidence goes a little bit further than July's evidence.

MR RICHARD: Before we go there, may I ask these questions.  At the time of the incident described by July Mtsweni, were you a member or a supporter of a political party or organisation?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I was a follower and a supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: What did you do to show that you were a follower and a supporter of that party?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: We participated in various actions to show that we were members of the ANC.  The first one that I can tell this Committee is that there were times when people were told we do not go to work, and we participated in consumer boycotts and strikes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, in - could you please tell us where Pieterskraal is and which is the nearest significant town?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Pieterskraal is an area near Pretoria, because most of the people go to Pretoria, but Groblersdal is the town nearby.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mtsweni, just for a person to get an idea, isn't it so that Pieterskraal is just next to kwaMhlanga, a well known area there in kwaNdebele?  kwaMhlanga, do you know that place?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, it is a little bit far, it is not that close.

MR SIBANYONI: But it is very closer to kwaMhlanga than Pretoria or Groblersdal, is that so?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, if we compared the distances between Pretoria and Groblersdal, then kwaMhlanga is closer to Pieterskraal.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Is it an area in which traditional leaders and chiefs still have authority and a role to play?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, it is an area which is ruled by chiefs, even though I cannot have certain on that, because it has been a long time since I have been there.

MR RICHARD: As at January 1991, who was the senior chief or King of that area?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: The senior chief or the King, I am not certain whether Mabhogo or the chief, I don't understand.

MR RICHARD: You heard your brother give evidence, your relative, not your brother, sorry, give evidence that he went to see a certain chief.  Were you with him when he went to see that chief?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I do understand and now I understand which chief you are referring to.  Yes, I do know that chief.

MR RICHARD: What was his name?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: chief Mashiane.

MR RICHARD: There was another chief above him, did you also go and see that chief?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I do know the senior chief, Mabhogo, if I am not mistaken, I think they are referring to him as Mabhogo III.

MR RICHARD: Did you go with the first witness, July Mtsweni, to see Mabhogo III?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: No, I didn't accompany July, because I wasn't present.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Yesterday, were you present when applicants Daniel and Michael Phasha gave evidence as to the difference in functions and activities of people known as Ngaka's and moloi?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I was present and I heard their evidence.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree with the descriptions given of what a moloi does and what a ngaka does and the differences between them?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I do agree because I do have knowledge as to what a ngaka or a sangoma does and what a witch does.

MR RICHARD: Tell me, do you believe what a ngaka does, a sangoma does, do you have confidence and faith in the traditional healer's practises?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I do believe.

MR RICHARD: When it comes to what I am terming a moloi, do you believe that a moloi can by supernatural means cause harm, injury, death to another person?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, it is my belief.  I do believe in witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: Now, you started by telling us that you wanted to add something to what July Mtsweni told us earlier today.  Please continue and tell us what I interrupted  you?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: The reason I took part in this incident, I will first start by relating what happened for me to participate.  First I accompanied them when they went to see the junior chief.    The argument or the discussion was about witchcraft and we wanted to ascertain whether there was a witch involved.  We discussed and my question was "is there a person among us who can recommend a sangoma where we can go and clarity this" and no one knew and I told them that I do know someone and I mentioned that person and I asked everyone if they do agree for us to all go to Makuduza, who is the sangoma and we all agreed that we were going to see Makuduza.
	I questioned the deceased's children if they would be able to afford R10-00 so that we put petrol and they agreed.  I asked July's family if they will be able to put R10-00 as well, for petrol, so that we put it together as R20-00 for petrol to go to Makuduza's place.  They also agreed.  I requested one family member from July's family and one family member from the deceased's children and if I remember well, it was (indistinct) Mtsweni and July's brother.

MR RICHARD: Which brother?  You say July's brother, which brother?