Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, I couldn't say that there were 20 members there, but at least 10 or more, and there were members of my branch as well as those of the Krugersdorp branch, as well as members from the Unrest Unit which helped to secure the flat.

UNKNOWN: The question is not, I assume there could have been 30 people on the operation, but how many were, were all of them in the room?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No, Your Honour, all of them would not have been inside the room.   Usually what would happen is that the Unrest Unit would first secure such a flat, and the people inside the flat would be brought under control, and afterwards our members would then go into the flat and do what we're supposed to do.

JUDGE NGCOBO: ...estimate of about 20 persons more or less accurate?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, as I said, it could have been 10 or more people, in total I'd say the Unrest Unit, together with us, in total yes, probably 20, but definitely not all of them inside the flat.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, paragraph 8, I suspect it refers to you, doesn't it, the way your name is written, but you asked "Who is ST"?, did you ask that question?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, it was a long time ago, it's possible that I did ask that question.

UNKNOWN: And the question of the "walk tall", is it possible you could have asked it?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, it's possible I could have asked it.

UNKNOWN: And then in paragraph 11, they refer to the banned literature found?   There was one magazine, Mzimbeze(?), Ruth First (indistinct) by Joe Slovo, and other literature?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.

UNKNOWN: And there's also mentioning of a bag that was taken, Nkosi says that his bag was taken?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.

UNKNOWN: Would Bopape be questioned then by you or a certain major?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I had the rank of lieutenant, and that was why I was in command, because I was a senior officer, so it's possible that there could have been a major.

UNKNOWN: And then, "Who is that small one who looks so innocent?"

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, I cannot remember that statement at all.

UNKNOWN: Would you have made such a statement?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I cannot see how I could have made such a type of statement.

UNKNOWN: And in the same paragraph it's stated that "I did not know", het jy dit gedoen?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I deny that strongly.

UNKNOWN: And then also in paragraph 15 he says that you hit Bopape in the stomach?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, I already pointed out that I did not hit him in the stomach.

UNKNOWN: At some stage it was put to him in paragraph 17 that you went to flat 1206, in paragraph 17 it says some of the people went over to flat 1206?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, if I can remember correctly, it was so, but at this stage I cannot say with any assurance that this actually happened and who exactly went there.

UNKNOWN: Do you also know about a woman who was present there and who was lying on a policeman's lap?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, that's correct, Your Honour, there was a woman who came with the Krugersdorp members and she, whilst this operation was going on, she was in a vehicle.

UNKNOWN: And as far as the taking away of people are concerned, you weren't involved?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No.

UNKNOWN: Just a moment's patience please, Your Honour.  Mr Zeelie, with regards to the application you submitted to the committee, why do you say there was a political motive for what you did?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, the total onslaught launched by the ANC in order to overthrow the government of the day by means of violence was inherently a political issue at that stage.

UNKNOWN: During the course of the death of Stanza and the way you covered it up and you took part in the mock escape, in other of those stages, did you do it in order to protect yourself?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, no.   The main reason, the main purpose of this behaviour was not to jeopardise the government and the police force, and to put them to shame.  I want to mention it that the commemoration of the 1976 unrests was just around the corner.   If it became known that a section 29 detainee died during detention and interrogation, it would have had massive repercussions for the South African Police and the government of that day.   That could have led to a complete renewed unrest and violence, and also pressure from the outside world on the government of that day and pressure on the government to give in to the demands of the ANC.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, and if I could just ask the other legal representatives, is there any objectoin to Mr Prinsloo handing in that list of weapons that was referred to by Mr Zeelie?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, at this stage it's in his handwriting, so I'll have to have it neatly typed, I can hand it in, unless you want it like it is, there's no copy of it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you perhaps ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Can I make a copy of it in the adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we won't really object too much, if it's a problem, the handwriting, then we can look at it at that stage.

UNKNOWN: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think if we can just give a list, we don't need any other portions of statements or anything else, together with it.

UNKNOWN: Certainly, Mr Chairman, I'll do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that will then be handed in later.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Zeelie, at the beginning of your testimony with regards to the arrest, you said that you had information.   What type of information did you have at that stage?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, as I already said, Victor told me that we had to assist Wes-Rand concerning the search of a flat where possible ANC members were hiding away.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also mentioned a woman in a vehicle.  This woman, was she Ellen Magale, with her MK name Mpho?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you know that she was the person who went to indicate Bopape's flat, this Mpho, or Ellen Magale?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.   I can just mention that it was not told to me in detail, but I was informed and I'd like to put it on record, of course you have to remember it was a long time ago, that there were facts which slips one by and as time goes by that your memory is refreshed and certain facts do come to light again, and that's why today I can say I do remember that Krugersdorp members who arrived there told me about the people that they were looking for and that the names ST and Walk Tall was used by a certain person and therefore there were, before we went into the flat, a phone call was made to this flat and there was a question, and the person who answered was asked, "Is it ST?"

MS VAN DER WALT: Now this Ellen Magale, was she a friend of Maponya?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, I was informed so.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you drove from Bronkhorstspruit after the body of Bopape was placed into the other vehicle, you were with Van Niekerk and Loggerenberg, is that correct?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now Mr Van Niekerk testified that already at that stage, when you were driving from Bronkhorstspruit, you were already talking about the escape?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.   I'd just like to make sure, are you talking about the mock escape?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes.

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: The fact that it would have taken place in the Eastern Transvaal.   Now this is after you left, this is his testimony, he said that already at that stage you already started talking about how you're going to arrange the mock escape?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, I did mention it now in my testimony.