Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

CHAIRPERSON: And if that is what Matthews told you, it would mean that in fact they are asking about something which he knew was going to happen?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: He knew that there was in fact going to be  road block ahead of them?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Matthews knew.

CHAIRPERSON: And despite a clear warning to these people that if you find a road block ahead you are going to be hurt, he continued to drive with them?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And this information, the information that you got from Matthews that they told him that if we find the road block ahead, you would also be hurt, you got it some time after the incident from Matthews?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was any communication installed in the Kombi so that you could, anybody could hear the conversation between Matthews and the passengers?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No, there was no such communication device.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

UNKNOWN: That's all, thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rossouw?

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Van den Berg, to just continue with that point, did you put it to Matthews as a general question what was discussed in the Kombi?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: You said that for you as a security policeman it was important to find out what had been said in the Kombi.

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: You didn't ask him whether the passengers in the Kombi had made certain communications to him as to where they came from and where they were going to?

J P VAN DEN BERG: We did talk about it.  He mentioned Johannesburg, he mentioned Pietersburg, and he also mentioned Checkers, the OK and the police station.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Van den Berg, I understood that he had received that information at a previous stage not on that morning, the morning that he collected the people.

J P VAN DEN BERG: That I cannot tell you, I heard that afterwards from Matthews.

MR ROSSOUW: You said that Matthews wasn't present at all the planning meetings.

J P VAN DEN BERG: He wasn't involved in all the planning meetings, but he was informed.

MR ROSSOUW: So there might be certain aspects about which he could be unclear and that could be the explanation.

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: Now regarding these three people you said that you understood from Matthews' explanation, that is now before the last time that it was decided to continue with the three people, you said that from Matthews' explanation you understood that there were three people and that the date was set for the 8th. Matthews also told you then that money had been handed to him to go and buy clothes.  Is that correct?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Correct.

MR ROSSOUW: You used the words "Matthews' explanation". So it is not the same as if he said that there were three. Is it possible that he referred to having to buy clothes for three people?

J P VAN DEN BERG: It could be that he had to buy clothes for three people, but the way I understood it, at that stage it was only a matter of three people involved.

MR ROSSOUW: You heard his evidence that he was not aware of that, that he knew about six people and that he had to buy clothes for three of them?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, I am aware of that.

MR ROSSOUW: Can you give a possible explanation for such a misunderstanding?

J P VAN DEN BERG: It is not possible for me to explain.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Could I just get some of these time sequences, time sequences in order.   You said that on the 8th of July, where did you sleep that night?

J P VAN DEN BERG: On that night I slept in Botswana on that koppie.

MR BLACK: Then on the 9th during the course of the day of the 9th, what did you do?

J P VAN DEN BERG: During the day I was at some stage on the RSA side and that evening I went with three Defence Force members back to the RSA.  You must realise that an additional Air Force member joined us.

MR BLACK: Did you take part - we have heard the evidence of ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: I'm sorry.  You said back to the RSA, you mean back to Botswana, on the evening of the 9th?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct, yes. I apologise.

MR BLACK: During the course of the day of the 9th,  did you take part in this reversal which was acted out?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No, I didn't take part in that.

MR BLACK: I understood that on the night of the 9th you slept at Alldays then?

J P VAN DEN BERG: From the 6th until after the 10th, I didn't sleep at Alldays, I slept at Botswana every night.

MR BLACK: So when did - sorry. You see I just got the - I just want to get one thing ... My notes speak about you are speaking to Matthews at Alldays and when  you learnt about these six people planning to infiltrate. Are you referring to after this event?  Because I have got on the 10th.

J P VAN DEN BERG: On the 8th, that afternoon, I saw Matthews at Alldays, or perhaps the morning of the 9th and I spoke to him then.

MR BLACK: Now what I just want to understand; you described that on the actual day of the incident you heard shots from your observation point.  After that did you go to the scene of the shooting?  Did you go from your observation point and go and investigate and find out what had happened?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No, I stayed at my observation point until we received a radio message that people had been killed and wounded during the shooting.  I then withdrew.  It might have been an hour or half-an-hour afterwards.

MR BLACK: What was the message that you received?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I received a message that here had been a shooting, that people had been killed and that a person from the security forces had been wounded.

MR BLACK: When you say that, did they just say people had been killed or did they say how many people had been killed?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I can't remember exactly whether it said how many people died, but what I can recall is that the message said people had been killed and wounded.

MR BLACK: Then you say you withdrew from your observation post.  Where did you withdraw to?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Quite some time afterwards I withdrew and I went to Kobus Fourie's observation post. Afterwards I went to Alldays with Kobus Fourie.

MR BLACK: So at no stage did you go to the actual scene of the shooting on that day?

J P VAN DEN BERG: On my way to Alldays we passed that place.

MR BLACK: Were the people there still?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No, this was about two to three hours after the incident, perhaps three hours, yes, when we passed by there.

MR BLACK: Now from your observation post where you were posted, did you see what had happened there, that a Casspir stopped?  Did you see the shooting?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No.  I couldn't see the place because the area there was mountainous and it was about 12 kilometres away from where I was.

MR BLACK: Subsequent to this event, I should imagine there must have been a lot of talk amongst your colleagues as to what had taken place?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, there was talk about the incident..

MR BLACK: I note from your evidence that whenever a particular stage of an operation could either not be carried out or had to be aborted or a further development took place, in an operation which you had set out to achieve, in other words, initially to keep tabs on these three persons, you always reported back to Brig Coetsee?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Right.  And is that in fact the practice of, as a security policeman, your other colleagues would also be expected to report on what they had done and what had taken place and they would report to Brig Coetsee?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I reported to Brig Coetsee because I had manned a strategic point in Botswana.