Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

MS GOBODO: I am just trying to understand the absurdity of it all in a view because there were terrorist then but what would you  refer to the group of people now.  I am just wondering because as you say the Government of the day defines these people as terrorist and now you say they  were referred to as terrorist - what does that mean in the context of today, how do you understand that?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ek sou se dat hulle was op daardie stadium Freedom Fighters wat vir vryheid geveg het.

MS GOBODO: This is what you say  today.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Dit is korrek mnr die Voorsitter  ... einde van Band 2, Kant A ...

MS GOBODO: ... you are now, you say they were Freedom Fighters in retrospect and the fact that you were fighting with people who were terrorist and very often it led to lives being lost.   And when you reflect now the Freedom Fighters how do you reflect on all that activity?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Wel op daardie stadium het hulle die Regering van die dag aangeval - hulle het onskuldige mense aangeval en hulle was beskou gewees as terroriste.

MS GOBODO: I suppose I am just trying to understand the relationship - not just the relationship between yourselves  as heads of this departments but  also the mindset of the times that this people were terrorist and to try and place it in a particular context, especially since you yourself say  they were Freedom Fighters and especially since it seems now so many things changed.  You know Government - our Government had Homeland states, they were changed they no longer Homelands states  [indistinct] we don't have them and people who fought the principle of those Homeland states are now considered Freedom Fighters according to what you say.
 And of course the Government that is now participating in the Government of National Unity, it consist of people who perhaps you  may refer to as Freedom Fighters is that right?

MR LIEBENBERG: That is probably people as well that I arrested in those days yes.

MS GOBODO: I - I just -  it's really just to understand for ourselves how the relationships between the past and the present is and to place the  [indistinct] what is going on in a context.
 Can you perhaps share with us what do you think were the conditions that re-enforced that kind of thinking - what were the conditions that re-enforced the idea that the people you were handling were terrorist.  Can you share with us a little bit about what your thoughts are on that.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Op die stadium was enige iemand wat die veiligheid van die land in  gevaar stel onder die Wet op Terrorisme aangekla.  Mense wat wapentuig gehad het met die rede daarvoor om die land se Regering om ver te werp was aangekla vir terrorisme en daarvoor was die woord dan  [onduidelik] terroriste.

MS GOBODO: Thank you I'd like  to  go back  to the sources - your sources - this man - I would imagine that for the people in a - that -  the 7 people who were killed and the people who were considered as terrorist it would be hard to infiltrate them.  
 What is it that your sources did to win this man's confidence - how did they win their confidence?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Soos ek  vroeer gemeld het, hierdie mense is gerehabiliteerde mense - in ander woorde 'n maand of twee voor dit, het hulle dieselfde doelstellings gehad as die groep  en was dit  vir  hulle baie maklik om sulke groepe te infiltreer.

MS GOBODO: So they had the same objectives or they projected the same objectives when they dealt with them, is that what you are saying?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Nee hulle is gerehabiliteer intussen na die polisie se kant toe waar hulle 'n maand of twee vantevore ook sou beskou gewees het net as terrroris.  So dit was vir hulle baie moeiliker om in so 'n groep te beweeg  as hulle, hulle self net terug - terugskaal na daardie  tydperk toe.

MS GOBODO: Thank you.

MR LIEBENBERG: Thank you.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Glenda Wildschut.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Superintendent my question is factual - on the night of the 2nd of March there was a planning meeting at Ysterplaat.  Could you  tell us about that planning meeting what happened there and who was involved at that meeting?  And what was being planned?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Mnr die Voorsitter sover ek kan onthou was dit by Wingfield se Honde-eenheid en nie by Ysterplaat nie.  Die mense teenwoordig wie ek definitief kan onthou wie daar was,  was op daardie stadium Majoor Odendal, Sersant Bellingham en myself.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: What - what were you  planning - what was the discussion that happened at that meeting.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ons groot probleem was die feit dat die bron so lank terug met ons laaste kontak gemaak het  dat ons moet beplan gaan ons iets doen, gaan ons daardie voertuig stop - gaan hulle nog voort of wat moet ons?
 Indien ons nie optree nie kan daar enige iemand daardie oggend doodgeskiet word terwyl ons oor inligting beskik dat daar mense is wat dit gaan doen.  So op een of ander wyse moes ons moet dit wat ons gehad het was ons gedruk in 'n hoek om die beste moontlik beplanning te maak met geen lewensverlies nie en hoe die mense gearresteer kan word sonder dat 'n skoot hoef geskiet te word.
 Reeds gesien uit die feite - wat ons voor ons gehad het dat hierdie mense goed opgelei was, het dit vir ons nog moeiliker gemaak om iets te doen maar iets moes ons doen.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: So kan you give us an idea then of the operational plan what - when you decided that you didn't have so much information - what was the operational plan what did you go away with from that meeting.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Die plan sou wees om genoeg mense daar te he dat dit 'n magsvertoon sal wees dat die moontlikheid dat die mense sal terug skiet, uitgekanselleer sal word, want hulle sal sien daar is nie 'n kans nie en hulle self oorgee.  Dit is die hoofdoel en dit is waarvoor daar op daardie stadium gevra was vir nog  meer mense en dit is op daardie stadium dink ek wat ons Moord en Roof ook gevra het of hulle lede het wat beskikbaar is die volgende oggend.
 Die beplanning was soos ek in my verklaring gese het aanvanklik het ons gedink aan  byvoorbeeld 'n trok voor hulle in te trek dat hulle nie kan beweeg nie die agterkant toe te maak u weet om hulle te omsingel, weens  die  gebrek aan personeel.  Wat ons maar daarna op besluit het om die bussie net tot halt te bring en dan die mense tot oorgawe te bring.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Perhaps just again about the attendance -  people  who  were attending the meeting, was Superindendent Kleyn at the meeting?

MR LIEBENBERG: It's hard to say, I had been asked this question  before and I  thought of the fact that he was with, I thought again afterwards.  I cannot  recollect  that he was definitely there the evening.
 Sover ek weet was hy die  volgende oggend wel daar.  So ek kan nie se nie, as hy dit self kan onthou, sal hy dit sekerlik vir u kan se, maar ek kan dit nie 100% se of hy daar was al dan nie.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Would it be correct if I were to assume that for this operation you would of had to have a meeting place somewhere that you know  to part of the plan was that at some place people would meet and gather and then station themselves at strategic points and so.  Would I be correct in assuming that?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Dit is korrek - dit was beplan om die volgende oggend by dieselfde perseel bymekaar te kom aangesien dit darem naaste aan almal  se huis is en daarvan sou  ons uit beweeg het.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Ja en then when you got to the Guguletu to the place that people would actually locate themselves at different places, would that be correct?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Dit was klaar beplan die oggend by Wingfield  waar wie sal moet gaan staan, dit is korrek.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Ja would it be possible to more or less point that out on the plan?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ja ek het nie presies die beplanning gedoen nie, maar wat ek daarvan kan onthou sal ek probeer voorle ek weet waar ek geplaas was.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Ja.