Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

DR BORAINE: I only have a couple of questions and I am being very fair, I am going to put some to Mr Moodley and some to Mr Dempsey, in fact only one to Mr Dempsey and only two to yourself, very quickly, and it's really trying to clear my own thinking on this one.
 First tell me Mr Moodley, for my own satisfaction, the original investigation into the murder of Dr Asvat, the investigating officer there was Colonel Hesslinga?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: That is correct.

DR BORAINE: And you had nothing to do with that, you weren't helping him at the time?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I won't say I had nothing to do, I was assisting him on times, at times I did assist him.

DR BORAINE: Okay, so that both of you in '95 took up the reopening of the investigation having been part of it when he was murdered?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: That's correct.

DR BORAINE: Okay.  So you must have known that Richardson had been to see Dr Asvat within hours of his murder, right?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I did know that and I still know that and I will always know that, but I didn't question him, that's what I was trying to say is that I didn't personally put those questions and show him the card and say Richardson, there is the card that says you were here and all that, so this is what I am trying to say.

DR BORAINE: Right, just what I am trying to get at is you work as a team so somebody must have questioned him on this ...(intervention)

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: It will be Henk Hesslinga.

DR BORAINE: .....because it's so important, right.  And you don't know anything about the answers even though you were part of the team?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No it's not necessarily I am all the time there when they are doing the questioning, it depends where I was at the time.

DR BORAINE: But you read the reports surely?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I don't read all the reports, no necessarily.

DR BORAINE: Even though you are part of the investigative team?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: No because Henk is carrying the docket.  I know you find it difficult ...(intervention)

DR BORAINE: ...I have got your answers thank you very much.  Just the one other aspect, the R10 000, that was given to Richardson because he told you that the Security Branch owed him that money and he was prepared to work for you provided he got that money so you were really paying him as a kind of an advance hoping to get his cooperation, is that right?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Had we not given him that money we would not have found Kuki's body and we wouldn't have got the information he gave us to the mine, because that was the first information ever got of Lolo Sono and the mine and the first ever - nobody knew about Kuki.  Kuki was written off, even her family didn't know where Kuki was.  They were under the impression she's overseas somewhere, but now that's the kind of information he gave and had we not given him the   R10 000, if we said listen guy fly a kite, we are not giving you any money, we don't know about those, we wouldn't have resolved this case.

DR BORAINE: I appreciate that entirely, what I can't understand is, you know R10 000 is quite a lot of money and yet he won't even give you a statement.  You say he won't be taped in an interview, he doesn't give you a written statement, don't you think you were short-changed?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Well I was satisfied with what he gave me, but we were still talking to him about giving us a statement when he refused after we had given him.

DR BORAINE: So you gave him the money and he refused to cooperate?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Afterwards ja.

DR BORAINE: So it's a bad deal?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: It is a bad deal, ja.

DR BORAINE: I will ask Supt Dempsey just one question.  We have been sitting here now, this is the sixth day, and there is a lot of - we've heard lots of lies, lots of half-lies, half-truths, truth, the whole spectrum, but one thing is clear and that is that the police over a period of a long time harassed Mrs Mandela, am I correct in that?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I cannot comment on harassing her, I never harassed her, I don't know about other people but personally I didn't.

DR BORAINE: It's general knowledge that she was constantly interviewed, sought out, imprisoned, banished, banned by the police, right?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Mr Chair I cannot comment on this, I was not involved in this.

DR BORAINE: Are you denying that that happened?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I cannot deny it, but what I am saying I was not involved.

DR BORAINE: I am not suggesting you were involved, I am just saying this was happening within the public domain, everybody knew about it, everybody who reads newspapers, listens to the radio, watches the television knows this to be true.  Now what I cannot understand is that you then decide that in the course of your investigation it would be helpful for you to be able to interview her and even possibly to get a statement to assist you in your investigation.  You make one phone call, you make one visit and she is not there.  I put it to you that if it was anyone else you would have gone there many times, you would have made many phone calls, if it was me for example you wouldn't have let me get away with that or would you have?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I repeat again what I stated earlier on in my evidence.  Shortly after receiving the case of Sono to investigate the Stompie case was also allocated to me and before we raided Mrs Mandela's home I went to be enlightened and advised by the Attorney General and he gave me the advice that Mrs Mandela had to be approached when proper evidence had been accumulated against her.  The docket would then be submitted to him and then he would decide that I had to approach her for a statement.

DR BORAINE: But you had allegations from more than one person, I am not saying any more than allegations but pretty serious allegations then surely if people make allegations of a serious nature you check it out and the only way you can check it out to be fair is to go and see the person against whom those allegations were made.  Now it doesn't seem to me that you actually did very much about that, that's all I am saying.

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Chairperson I don't think it is true that I didn't do much about it.  I was advised not to approach Mrs Mandela unless and until such time as I had collected enough evidence against her.  She was approached on a second occasion, and I have already testified to that effect where she used her right to silence and I asked her advocate to put this to me in writing, he promised me that it would be done and he never did it.

DR BORAINE: Okay lastly, I promise you lastly.  You had information at your disposal and you say to us inter alia that when you were trying to get information from people about either Mrs Mandela or the Football Club it was like a light being switched off.  I suggest to you that your light went off as well.

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I don't believe my light was switched off because I kept trying.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Faizel.