Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

MR BOTMA: Sorry for interrupting. I am talking about the day of the incident. Did you see him on that day prior to the killing of Mike Meyers?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We were dropped off by him at the target place. We were using his car.

MR BOTMA: So where did you meet him on that day before he dropped you off at the scene?
(The interpreter cannot hear the witness.)

MR LAX: Please tell him to speak up?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No I am just trying to recollect my memory. If I remember accurately we left with him from Umtata and then he dropped us off at some village, I cannot remember the name. I think we left with him from Umtata if I remember well.

MR BOTMA: The evidence of your co-accused was that you travelled there by public transport. Can you recall that? That you travelled to the turn-off to the spot by public transport from Umtata?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It is difficult to speak for my co-accused. I have already said here that when you in court you apply any measures to protect and defend yourself. It could be that he was protecting himself and was trying to get means to absolve himself perhaps. I cannot speak for him.

MR BOTMA: The purpose of the question is just merely to try and to determine how you got to the scene. So you cannot recall whether you went there with Thanduxolo or whether you went there with public transport?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: If I remember well I think we used Thanduxolo's car, a Toyota. Perhaps I could be reminded by my co-accused but I think that we used his car. Yes we did, yes we did.

MR LAX: Sorry I just want to clarify this. Was his Toyota a car or a "bakkie" or a truck? What was it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It was a "bakkie".

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR BOTMA: So you travelled with that Toyota bakkie from Umtata towards the scene. Now you said he dropped you off at a locality, you cannot remember the name of the locality. Are you talking in the locality where Mike Meyers was killed? Did he drop you there?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: How far from the truck of Mike Meyers did he drop you off?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I cannot remember accurately. I do not even want to estimate but we parked at a place where we could see the truck well. Maybe you can give me the information of the distance?

MR BOTMA: Unfortunately I was not together with you on that day. I am talking, he came there and he dropped you off. You say you cannot recall the distance or you cannot estimate the distance. What happened to Thanduxolo after he dropped you off?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I was the last person he spoke to. I used "Max" as a combat name. He then said that we must make sure that the operation will be successful. I said yes we would try our best. He said that he would wait for us in Mbashe as he was going to take Meyers from us and move on.

MR BOTMA: Can I take from that did he then drive off or did he stay behind and you walked towards the truck of Mike Meyers?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We went to the truck.

MR BOTMA: Did he drive off?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes he left.

MR BOTMA: The spot where he dropped you, was that before you reached the truck of Mike Meyers or past the truck of Mike Meyers?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: There were a lot of people there. My concentration was on the target. I did not really take note of who should he use to, I had to look and see where they are and how they sat in the car. I knew that I was going to meet Thanduxolo again in Mbashe.

MR BOTMA: Sorry I have to go back then to the distance he dropped you from the truck. Could you see clearly from where you were the people inside the truck, the occupants of the truck? What was going on in the truck? Or was it some distance away that you have to walk closer to observe what was going on?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We were not able to see them. We could only see the back of the truck. The truck had tanks of milk therefore we could not see the people. We were coming from behind. It was difficult to see them, the people inside the truck.

MR BOTMA: He dropped you next to the road or did he drop you in the veld area? What is the position?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Please elaborate which field are you talking about? I do not know which field you are talking about.

MR BOTMA: As you were coming from Umtata, you get to the turn off, the Bithi turn off you turned left and you were travelling on this gravel road. That is now the one leading towards the spot where Mike Meyers' truck was. Did he then drop you at a spot just next to this gravel road or did he drive into the veld area surrounding the gravel road and dropped you there? What is the position?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He did not drop us off the gravel road. He drove into the village. There is a junction that we used to drive into the village. That is all I remember.

MR BOTMA: Let me just try to refresh your memory once again. You were travelling from Umtata towards direction of Nxnobo and then you make a left turn and you travelled along this gravel road, is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: And this spot where the truck was parked was along side this gravel road, is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It was next to the gravel road where the truck was parked. I do not even remember where the truck was parked. It could be so.

MR BOTMA: Can you recall or can you remember the spot where he dropped you off? Was it next to the gravel road or was it away from the gravel road?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It is the first time I had gone to that area really. I was not used to the place. Gravel roads, I cannot. What I do remember is that I could see the truck from where I was dropped off. I did not really take note whether it was parked next to a gravel road or not. I was just there to do my job.

MR BOTMA: Did you walk straight from this point where you were dropped off up to the point where the truck was parked?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes we did.

MR BOTMA: And did the Toyota van of Thanduxolo follow the same direction as you were walking towards this truck?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I cannot remember but what Thanduxolo did was that he dropped us off. After that we went to the truck. My concentration and my focus was on the truck. I could not take note of other things.

ADV GCABASHE: But surely you would have seen him had he driven past you because after all he is your commander?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I did not really take note. There were a lot of people from the village. I did not want to lose sight of where I was going. Thanduxolo was not going to do anything to me. He was not going to shoot me if I had my back towards him. My focus was on the truck because there were a lot of people as these Boers were selling. I did not want to lose sight of the truck. I had to look at them. I had to prepare myself mentally to position myself.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes but there was, sorry can I just finish this off? There was no other traffic was there? There was the truck in front of you with people there and no other traffic. It was not a busy road?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: There are people with cars in the village. I could not be looking at each and every car. After Thanduxolo dropped us off I was already given orders. I knew what I was going to do. Thanduxolo had already told me where we were going to meet. I had no problem with Thanduxolo then. My focus from then on was on the truck. Whether his car passed me or not I did not take note of.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you walking on a road or were you just walking through the village?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Through the village.

MR BOTMA: When you got to the spot or to the truck itself did you go straight to the passenger's side or did you first stay behind the truck?