Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: It has been said by a previous witness thatthe security police, and in particular if I may call it the "hitsquad" element of the security police, "was die ystervuisvan die Nasionale Party", that they were the iron fist ofthe National Party.

ANSWER: That is the case Your Honour, without the securitypolice the National Party would not have stayed in governmentone week.

<UNKNOWN>: Would it be correct to say that the securitypolice, and in particular that aspect that was involved in theseunlawful assassinations, was the hit squad of the National Party?

ANSWER: It can be understood in that way Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, would any government or any partyunder the previous constitution have stayed in government, I'mreferring to any party whether it was the Conservative Party orwhatever party, the Democratic Party, but under the old constitutionif any party maintained the....

ANSWER: Not so Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not the army that supports and maintainsa party in power if the time arises to defend the
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government, is it necessarily the police force that maintainsa political party in power?

ANSWER: The security police Mr Chair was primarily therefor political purposes and the political purposes of the thenNational Party government.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier Cronje, could you tell this Committee,as far as you know, who in the National Party was aware of thefact that there was an "ystervuis" or a hit squad actingon its behalf?

ANSWER: There is no doubt in my mind that the State SecurityCouncil was aware of the existence of these.

<UNKNOWN>: For the record, could you tell us who was onthe State Security Council at the time, if you don't know allthe names you can tell us their capacities?

ANSWER: The President, the Minister of Police were automatically(?)members of this Council, I do not know the remainder.

<UNKNOWN>: Who else was on the State Security Councildo you know?

ANSWER: I do not know.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know how large the State Security Councilwas?

ANSWER: No I do not know this either.

JUDGE WILSON: : Can I interpose here?   Do you know, notof people but of organisations that were on the Council, werethe police force represented there, was the army represented there,do you know that?

ANSWER: Yes Chair, the police and the South African DefenceForce were present there and I believe that National Intelligencewould also have been represented.
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CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: During your evidence you told us about threeseparate events or incidents which seemed to have been the turningpoint where the security police actually began to take pro-activesteps by engaging in a war situation and then officially, in thecontext of the security police, breaching the laws of the land.  I just want to go through those three with you and find outwhat their order was, which one came first, second or third becauseI'm not clear.  The first one you mentioned in your evidence isBrigadier Victor in 1986 where he said that you should take whateversteps are necessary.   You also mentioned that in 1986 BrigadierSchoon said that you should work closely with Spes-magte and youinterpreted that as meaning that you should engage in the war.  Then thirdly you mentioned
"trevits", and trevits was something which, as far asI can establish, was actually initiated in 1985.   Did trevitscome before the first two?

ANSWER: Chair, trevits was founded in 1986 and the othertwo instructions I only received from Brigadier Victor and afterthat from Brigadier Schoon.   Additionally there was another incidentwhen General Van der Merwe gave me the instruction to be involvedin the "zero hand grenade event" and when he told methat this instruction came from General Coetzee, previous MinisterLe Grange and P W Botha.

<UNKNOWN>: What was the date, the year of that incident?

ANSWER: This incident took place in roughly June 1985.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you please tell us in more detail preciselywhat constituted trevits and how it worked and I'll just go throughmy summary and I'd like you to add to that.   You said that itwas a national structure, it's
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objective was to gather information regarding targets around theentire country.    In different regions, as I understand you,meetings took place once a month where information was collatedfrom all sectors and that included military intelligence, nationalintelligence, the security branch and spes-magte, special forces.  The information which was gathered was compared at these meetingsand a list, which  was a priority list, was prepared on whichtargets were identified.   Is that correct?

ANSWER: Apart from the fact that when trevits was foundedin 1985 it was primarily to identify foreign targets, targetsoutside the country, but I believe after the state of emergencythese instructions also included internal targets.

<UNKNOWN>: ...establishment, was there not a decisionthat trevits would also operate internally?

ANSWER: I did not have permanent sitting on trevits butsince the Ribiero's instruction I believe also was agreed to bytrevits during 1986 and it took place during 1986.

<UNKNOWN>: You say you didn't have a permanent seat ontrevits, my apologies I see there is a question from Adv De Jager.

UNKNOWN: We're talking about trevits could you nottell us more concretely about trevits, this is some or other bodyand we're blaming this body but who were the persons who had sittingon this body, do you know any particular names of peoples whowere sitting on trevits and who were involved in trevits?

ANSWER: The co-ordinator of information was Colonel TomLouw.   The head of trevits at a certain stage was General, thenBrigadier Buchner  and later I believe General Beukes.
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The other members who had sitting...
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier Victor followed General Bob Beukes,is that correct, in your written evidence?

ANSWER: Buchner.

<UNKNOWN>: You said after General Bob Beukes was Victor?  It's page 22 Mr Chairman.

ANSWER: I understood "Victor".   That is thecase.

<UNKNOWN>: ...more about who was on trevit, met monthly,who went to those meetings?

ANSWER: There were representatives of military intelligence,national intelligence, special forces, I cannot say whether thiswas the same representative at every event, I cannot rememberwho these representatives were.

<UNKNOWN>: Who instructed the establishment of trevits?

ANSWER: I believe that it was the State Security Councilbecause they knew about trevits.

<UNKNOWN>: You assume it was the State Security Counciland in your evidence you did say that they knew about the existenceof trevits.   How do you know that they knew of the existenceof trevits?

ANSWER: It was a secret, a very highly secret organisationwithin the security establishment and I cannot imagine that suchan organisation with such very wide powers could have been foundedwithout the knowledge of the State Security Council.

<UNKNOWN>: At the trevits meetings, I understood thatreports were compiled at least in the form of "hit lists"if I may call them hit lists, which they seem to have been.  Is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes, targets were identified and placed on a
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priority list with the purpose of eliminating these persons.

<UNKNOWN>: Did every person who was present at those meetingsknow about a particular target that has been identified and adecision now to begin to take steps to eliminate that person?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: When you said you didn't have a permanent seaton trevits, what does that mean, what are the implications ofthat, did you sort of come and out and how many other people werein and out of trevits without having permanent seats?