Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

REV WESLEY MABUZA: Yes, in fact I was hoping that this would not come up,   because we have already responded to K. Burman over the air, we had a talk with   him. But I just want to say, firstly, I think ICT would not like to associate   itself with anything that is becoming an insult to people who are suffering.   And one can unfortunately not use very strong words to call K. Burman to order,   because you cannot say to someone who is suffering and is having a big stone   on that person's neck, and when that person is trying to remove the stone, you   say it was caused by others. It is an insult and despising the mentality of   people. Our response also was we were not aware that each and every person who   was throwing and stone was reading liberation theology. I just think that it   was a far-fetched generalisation and unfortunately he has this history of denigrating   all the people who were fighting for the people who were oppressed. SACC has   gone through his tongue lashing and it is most unfortunate that he should belong   to an organisation that is the Institute of Race Relations. I think that we   could say more, but I think all I can say in summary is that we will not accept   the insult that is levelled at people who are trying to do something against   their suffering, but saying they are influenced by other people. It's what the   government used to say and now we hear K. Burman saying the same thing.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to add to what you say. I haven't myself responded   to him. I would make no bones about the fact that I tried to be an exponent   of liberation theology. I don't apologise for that fact. But I think it is extremely   odd for anyone to say that we who were the exponents of this, who then were   the ones who were putting the fires out in this country. I mean, we were the   ones who actually tried to stop people from necklacing, but more than that,   we were the ones who kept begging the government, the previous government when   our people were dying, begging them "Don't do this", and we stood   between this country and catastrophe. I would not, myself, I am glad I mean,   but I just want to say that it is worse than an insult actually, because people   put their lives on the line to prevent this country going down the tubes. We   were the ones who were involved with the Peace Accord. We were going around   in aeroplanes and all over the place, trying, we would be in Natal to try and   stop the violence that was happening there and I mean, if you asked who were   the people who were in the forefront, you would almost always have found that   it was some church leader or other, who were the ones who were seeking to bring   about peace and to be treated with such - no, I have always said to people let   us be laid-back. I will try to be laid-back. Yes, Thomas.
MR T.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I would like to know what contact did the ICT have with either   the victim or the perpetrator and/or both of them during the activities of the   TRC? Or do I understand you to say that because of the confusion that you have,   you had nothing to do with either of the people concerned in this whole activity?
REV.

REV WESLEY MABUZA: Chairperson, we have not had much contact, because we are   busy reflecting on this. However, the Department of Ministries does have programmes   in the Vaal Triangle, they have been going, they have been having meetings with   people over the weekends and so forth, and they have been coming back, most   of those are victims. We have not had contact with the perpetrators. That's   one thing. The second thing that we have mentioned in this submission ins that   there is a task force looking at the ways of working out some guidelines for   a reconciliation process beyond the TRC process, because we believe that the   TRC process does come to an end, but what kind of society do you want beyond   that? The people leave. And they are busy working on those, looking at it from   different angles social, theological side and so forth. Perhaps something could   be worked out then in terms of who is important in the process.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Yes, I am saying this because we have been asking people to   provide with the healing of the council and of course, further, I don't know   how you are going to enter the whole process of reconciling if you do not start   it at the beginning and you are going to start it at the time when the TRC shall   have ended. OK, fine. I go further to ask how to you envisage the church created   TRC? Would you say the church created TRC would, as we talk in the TRC, have   an implementing body, or the churches, will they institute an implementing body   and that would perhaps be the SACC?
REV.

REV WESLEY MABUZA: Thank you Chairperson. I think that ICT is presenting this   proposal with humility. We are not instructing the churches or religious bodies   to have a TRC. We are saying that if it is a reasonable option, that could be   taken over and the ...[inaudible] would then be discussed. It would not be proper   for us to actually state exactly we see. We are presenting something here within   a limited space of time. If we were to be asked, for instance, to work together   with the churches on this kind of thing, then working with them would present   something. But this is an idea that we thought would be reasonable to the churches.   That is not just reasonable but necessary. There is a lot that still needs to   be said. There is a lot that still needs to be corrected. There is a lot within   our own denominations that needs to be worked at. There is a huge amount and   we do not believe that this process has started it, but we don't think that   it can end there with the churches. For the churches always have an ongoing   thing about truth and reconciliation?

CHAIRPERSON: I think I should - is that your last question? Because I'm trying   to - there's somebody else here. Virginia wants, and would think that we ought   to be going to tea. Are you feeling frustrated?
REV.

REV WESLEY MABUZA: I'm all right.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Virginia?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You'll be allowed at the very most, two

UNKNOWN: My question is very short, so maybe Tom can use my time. You   said in your submission that ICT made a significant contribution to the change   in this country and you also mentioned your concern for the poor and poverty.   Now my question is What practical programme do you have or envisage in trying   to combat poverty in the townships?
REV.

REV WESLEY MABUZA: Thank you Chairperson. I think it's a huge question and   maybe two of us will answer it. Let me just say that [intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you make it brief, so it will have to be only one of you.
REV.