Amnesty Hearings — Witbank — 2000-01-31

MR SCHULTZ: No, if you can just refresh my memory, who connected the timer device to the bomb?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think straight to that ...(indistinct) of the remote control mechanism that was to be used which we are not familiar with, myself and Thabang.  It was Comrade Silver who specifically did that.

CHAIRPERSON: And by Comrade Silver you mean John Ithumeleng Dube?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you, just for purposes of our proceedings, simply refer to him as Mr Dube?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Okay.

MR SCHULTZ: Was it early on the Monday morning that the bomb was so put together?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: Did Thabang drive the bomb vehicle by himself, or was there someone with him in the vehicle?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: No, he drove it by himself.

MR SCHULTZ: And did both of you, you and your co-applicant, follow him in another vehicle?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: Did I also understand correctly that you waited for Thabang at the taxi rank?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: That is the taxi rank further down the street, about 500 metres from where the bomb exploded.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I'm not sure about the distance.

MR SCHULTZ: How far were you away from the taxi rank when the bomb exploded?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: We were on our way to the highway when it exploded.  We were far from the taxi rank.

MR SCHULTZ: Was it exploded by remote control or by a timing device.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Remote control, as stated before.

MR SCHULTZ: Who handled the remote control.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Thabang as the Commander of the Unit.

MR SCHULTZ: And who was driving, let's call it the get-away car?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I did.

MR SCHULTZ: I want to refer you to page 60, sorry page 70 and further of the first bundle of documents which contains the Judgment in the criminal matter which followed from this explosion.  In this Judgment there is reference to one Steve Nyalunga, is that you?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: And you spoke about your sister and your brother-in-law, what are their names?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Lere Ngala.

MR SCHULTZ: And her husband's name is...

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Thabe

MR SCHULTZ: Thabe Ngala.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: What was their involvement in the whole matter?  Did their involvement only go so far as to provide a place for the bomb to be put together?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: They are not involved, we only used their house.

MR SCHULTZ: Did they know that you are going to use their house?  Did you ask them to use their house?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I do not know what arrangements Thabang made with them because when we went there it was Thabang who had arranged already and he had familiarised himself with my sister and my brother-in-law.

MR SCHULTZ: And all the times when - first let me ask you that, let me just rephrase.  How many times were you there when you visited Witbank during the reconnaissance and the building of the bomb.  How many times did you visit your sister's house?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I never specifically visited her for the planting of the bomb or reconnaissance, I used to visit her just as a sister, nothing else.  I can't remember how many times.

CHAIRPERSON: But during the reconnaissance, did you ever go past her place?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Ja, I would pass her place, she would not know whether I'm from reconnaissance or what, I used to visit her as a sister.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How did she come to know Thabang, or how did Thabang...?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: No, she came to know Thabang through me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you introduced them?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: When was that?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: It was some time early in 88.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was that after you started planning the bomb?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Not yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before the target was even selected by Thabang?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Ja, it was long before.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Schultz.

MR SCHULTZ: Thank you, Madam Chair.  When you arrived there together with Thabang to build the bomb there at your sister's house, how did you gain entrance into the house?  Were you in possession of keys?  Was Thabang in possession of keys?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Thabang had arranged prior before and he picked up the key under the dustbin and he left it there when he left.

MR SCHULTZ: Now your sister ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Schultz, is this line of cross-examination getting us anywhere with regard to the pertinent issues we have to decide in considering whether Mr Nyalunga qualifies for amnesty or not?

MR SCHULTZ: I think I will leave it there, thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBETHE: Madam Chair, sorry, with the permission of the Tribunal, I would like to just put one final question which was left over in my cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: You will be allowed, but Mr Schultz is still conducting his cross-examination.

MR MBETHE: Oh, sorry, I thought he said that was the last, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he was simply abandoning the line of cross-examination he had started embarking upon.

MR MBETHE: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Schultz.

MR SCHULTZ: Thank you Madam.  You did not see yourself, Mr Nyalunga, where specifically the car was parked, the bomb vehicle was parked?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: It was parked next to the building, just where there was a board written: "S A P vehicles parking only".

MR SCHULTZ: Did you see it being parked there?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: And did you see Thabang returning from the parked vehicle?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Okay, yes.

MR SCHULTZ: Now the people who were killed during this bomb explosion, I'm specifically referring to a Mr Jacob Masuku, a Mr Jacob Samuel Masuku, he was on his way to doing his banking business on this morning.  If you could speak to his family, his wife and his four children and say to them, and say anything to them with regards to his death on this morning of the 24th of October, what would you say to them?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I would very much apologise to them, he was not our intended target, it's just unfortunate that he passed there when this thing happened.

MR SCHULTZ: I have no further questions at this stage, thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Schultz.  Mr Mbethe we'll now afford you an opportunity to put one question which you omitted to put to Mr Nyalunga.

MR MBETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Madam Chair my question in a way relates to what Mr Schultz just asked now, but I will just put the question.

CHAIRPERSON: And has it not been covered?

MR MBETHE: No, Madam Chair, I think it has not been covered.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

MR MBETHE: In retrospect Mr Nyalunga, do you think that you made a mistake the way that you planted the bomb and if so, would you have done it differently?  Thank you.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: It's a difficult question to answer, whether I would have done it differently, because those were different times by then and now you are asking me this question at this point in time.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, do you think you made a mistake by planting the bomb where you planted it at that time?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I do not think we have made a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Mbethe.

MR MBETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, do you want to re-examine?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata do you wish to put any questions to Mr Nyalunga?

JUDGE MOTATA: None, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Judge Motata.  Judge de Jager?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you use explosive, loose explosives to make the bomb or was the bomb already pre-prepared like a limpet mine or a personal mine?