Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: It was the head of the Port Elizabeth police station, numerous of his while colleagues, myself, Koole, Mogoai, Warrant Officer Beeslaar and Colonel Venter.

MS HARTLE: And what were the finer details of the operation given to you at that meeting?

JOE MAMASELA: The finer details of that meeting was they had finally managed to intercept the conversation between a certain Mr Twasamele Botha phoning these people and promising them they will sent a British diplomat to give them money, by the name of Charlton.  	It is then that the security police forces decided to use somebody with an English accent to pose as this Mr Charlton, to lure these people out of the township into the airport.

MS HARTLE: Now you are certain that at that meeting the very three deceased were identified to you as the person who were required to be eliminated?

JOE MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct.

MS HARTLE: Now if I can just refer you to Exhibit T Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MS HARTLE: Do you have it in front of you?

JOE MAMASELA: I have it.

MS HARTLE: If you'll have a look at paragraph 4.1 on paginated page 7.  This is the affidavit of Mrs Hashe.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MS HARTLE: Where she says that during the day on the 8th of May her husband had a telephone call as a result of which he was asked to go to the airport that evening.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MS HARTLE: At the bottom of the page it reads
"He did not tell me the reason for his visit,  he told Fazi however that the call had been from a member of the British, of the British Consulate in Cape Town who wanted him to meet him at the airport.  The caller had asked that Fazi Ngoie, the UDF Regional President, Godolozi and Galela should come with Hashe.  Fazi and Ngoie had been unable to go and Hashe had arranged for Godolozi and Galela to accompany him"
Now I put it to you that it was just coincidental that Messrs Godolozi, Hashe and Galela arrived at the airport that evening.

JOE MAMASELA: It was not coincidental, I think they were phoned earlier during the day and they made the appointment for the evening.  When we were briefed we already knew that it was these three that were coming because they other could not come.

MS HARTLE: How do you know that the other two could not come?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I don't know about the other two that could not come.  I said that is my assumption because we were just told about these three, that they are coming, they will be the ones that will be coming.

MS HARTLE: As I understand it, it was a last minute decision for those who were asked to come or those who were expected to be going, to change the plan.

JOE MAMASELA: No, I don't understand by last minute decision.  When we were briefed in Pretoria and we came here knowing that there is a possibility of activists to be killed and when we were at Port Elizabeth on the 8th on the very same day, we were only told on the same day that this mission was going to be pulled out.  That here's the breakthrough, there's a telephone conversation.
	I don't know when was this telephone conversation made with these people.  All what we knew was that the very same day we were supposed to go back and change and get to the airport because these people we expected them at about 7 o'clock.

MS HARTLE: The purpose of the operation in Port Elizabeth, was it general or specific in relation to the PEBCO 3?  In other words when you were called to the special debriefing at Vlakplaas, did you understand that  you were coming down for the specific purpose of eliminating certain activists?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, that was conveyed to us.

MS HARTLE: And at that stage no names were mentioned?

JOE MAMASELA: We did not know who was that.

MS HARTLE: Were they at least identified in terms of perhaps the leadership of PEBCO or the leadership of some other organisations?

JOE MAMASELA: No, they just said political leaders, activists who are making the townships ungovernable.  No mention was made of any organisation whatsoever.

MS HARTLE: And how long were you originally intending to stay in Port Elizabeth to carry out the operation?

JOE MAMASELA: We had no specific time limits, only the ...[indistinct] will have determined our time limits.  If it took two weeks we'll stay two weeks, it it took three weeks we would have stayed three weeks, if it's four weeks we could have stayed four weeks.

MS HARTLE: Isn't it so that in your experience in being involved in covert operations that you would plan every last thing down to the most perfect detail?

JOE MAMASELA: It is so but it is not always possible to can plan everything to the last detail.  Like in this case they did not know how to lure these people out of the townships so we all had to engage ourselves as to how best can we do that, until they intercepted the conversation then they had the clue to can lure these people out of the township.

MS HARTLE: Now the vehicle in which you drove to the airport, was that a vehicle that had come from Vlakplaas?

JOE MAMASELA: Definitely.

MS HARTLE: And which other vehicles were at the airport at the time of the abduction?

JOE MAMASELA: It was at night, it was dark but the only vehicle that I could positively identify was the white one that I said I don't know whether it's a Mazda or not, that I followed about two kilometres where we left the bakkie and we climbed back into that white car.  That is the only vehicle that I can positively identify as there but I knew there were other vehicles but I didn't know their colours and whatever.

MS HARTLE: Now other than those applicants with whom you are familiar because they come from your neck of the woods as it were, which of the other applicants who applied for amnesty in relation to the PEBCO 3 were at the airport that night at the time of the abduction?

JOE MAMASELA: I will be lying if I say anyone one of them was there and I will also be lying if I say anyone of them was not there.  I couldn't tell you, I didn't see them.

MS HARTLE: If Captain Venter for example had said that Mr Niewoudt was present, would you agree with him?

JOE MAMASELA: I will agree with him.

MS HARTLE: I'm asking you if you know that for a fact, do you know from own experience that he was there?  Did you see him at the airport?

JOE MAMASELA: No, no, no, I didn't see him.

MS HARTLE: You just can't dispute it, is that what you're saying?

JOE MAMASELA: I cannot dispute it because they were commanders, they were liaising with one another.

MS HARTLE: Can you identify the driver of the vehicle, of the white vehicle with whom you drove back from this house where the boats were?

JOE MAMASELA: It's difficult for me to identify him but he had a white hair, I don't know whether it's called blonde but he had white hair, he was long, he had a very ...[indistinct] like face.  That's all I can identify, I can't go further than that.

MS HARTLE: Did you see him again after you drove in the vehicle with ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: No ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I hesitate to interrupt but really, where is this getting us?  I thought this has been canvassed ad nausea over the last couple of days.

MS HARTLE: Mr Chairman, I don't believe that these issues have been canvassed.  I'm trying to establish more particularity about other people who were involved in the commission these acts.  If the Committee ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I assume you will restrict yourself to new areas which have not been covered before.

MS HARTLE: As the Committee pleases.
	Were you ever asked Mr Mamasela, to go back and identify the location of that house where you indicated the old boats were?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I was asked to do so.

MS HARTLE: And do you know whose house that is?