Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-10

UNKNOWN: You must take your time, Mrs Mntuze.  We know that the pain that you went through and the anguish is just unbearable.  You can take your time.  This is the chance that you've got to speak out and tell us about what happened to your son.  Even before we begin to talk about your son we would like you to give us a brief background about your family.  Do you have any children?

WITNESS:   I have four children.  I am left with three now.

UNKNOWN: Your are left with three after Vincent died?  Tell us about your children that you are left with.

WITNESS:   My first born is David.  He stays in Parys, and that's where he works.

UNKNOWN: How old is he?

WITNESS:   I think he is 31 if I am not mistaken.

UNKNOWN: Is he working in Parys?

WITNESS:   Yes, he is working in Parys, and that's where he stays.

UNKNOWN: And your second-born?

WITNESS:   It's Clifford.  He is staying with me.

UNKNOWN: How old is Clifford?

WITNESS:   Clifford is 28 years old.

UNKNOWN: Is he working?

WITNESS:   No, he is not employed, but he has just completed his matric.

UNKNOWN: Your third-born?

WITNESS:   It's Kazer.

UNKNOWN: How old is Kazer?

WITNESS:   Kazer is 22 years old.

UNKNOWN: Is he employed?

WITNESS:   No, he has also completed his matric, but he is not employed as yet.

UNKNOWN: Is that all?  Are you employed?

WITNESS:   Yes, I am.

UNKNOWN: What type of work are you doing?

WITNESS:   I'm a domestic.  I do washing and ironing.

UNKNOWN: Mr Abraham, are you working?

WITNESS:   No, I am not working.

UNKNOWN: As you have already related to us that you've come to talk about Pinda, can you please give us a brief explanation as to what was happening in your location just before he died, or before he was shot?

WITNESS:   Pinda was born in 1976 on the 6th of July.  It was approximately half past four on a Monday and I was in my living-room watching TV.  I heard somebody calling me and asked me as to where he was at that time.  And that person told me that Pinda had just been shot.

UNKNOWN: You can take your time.  We know the pain that you are going through.  We know that it's very tough to lose a loved one, especially a child.

WITNESS:   I went out, running out of the house.  When I got to the street I proceeded towards the street corner, and I discovered that he had already been taken and put into a kombi, and it was the headmaster's kombi, being driven by his son.  It was Headmaster Sidilwane's son who was driving the kombi, and they were rushing my son to Buwidumela Hospital.  And when they got to Buwidumela Hospital ... (incomplete)

UNKNOWN: Take your time, Mrs Mntuze.  (Pause)  You can take your time, Mrs Mntuze.  We do understand.  (Pause)  Can you go on?  Are you able to continue?

WITNESS:   When they got to Buwidumela Hospital he was certified dead on arrival.

UNKNOWN: Let's just stop there.  I want to ask a question.  You spoke about Makwadi.  Who is Makwadi?

WITNESS:   It is Makwatla, not Makwadi.

UNKNOWN: Who is Makwatla?

WITNESS:   Makwatla is a distant member of the family.

UNKNOWN: Can you please tell us about the Lekhopo family?  Where do they stay?

WITNESS:   He stays in Constantia in Kroonstad.

UNKNOWN: Do you know his address?

WITNESS:   No, I do not know his address, but he stays in Constantia.

UNKNOWN: Now, you are staying in Pumulong.  What did he have to do with the whole incident?

WITNESS:   He was a visitor at that time.  He was staying in Pumulong at that time.

UNKNOWN: You also mentioned Caswell Kwekwe, a certain mayor.  Could you tell us whether he's still alive?

WITNESS:   What resulted in my son's death - Caswell Kwekwe was involved in the shooting and killing of my son.

UNKNOWN: Do you know where he stays?

WITNESS:   He was then mayor of Kroonstad.  That is way back in 1986.  He was taken to the State mortuary at the police station, which was in the city centre.  They discovered that he had been shot three times, two times just above the heart and one just below the heart.

UNKNOWN: Take your time, Mrs Mntuze, we do understand your pain.  (Pause)  Was Vincent 10 years old when he died?

WITNESS:   That is correct, he was 10 years old.

UNKNOWN: Can you please explain as to how a 10-year-old could be shot by a mayor, who is supposed to be a responsible citizen?

WITNESS:   The children were playing in the street when this happened.  That is when Caswell Kwekwe shot him.  They were together with Pakwe in a minibus, and we were told that he shot him through the window of the minibus.  And later on I heard rumour that there was a riot or unrest at a certain school, that is the Vudibeng School, and that happened during the morning, but my child was shot in the afternoon at half past four.  Now, I don't know what is the connection between the riot that took place in the morning and the shooting that happened in the afternoon, because he was not at a high school, he was just at a secondary school. Were there any adults or teenagers who were playing during that time in the street?   ---   I was not present, but what I know is that he was playing with his peers there.

UNKNOWN: Is Kwekwe still alive?

WITNESS:   Yes, he is alive.

UNKNOWN: And where does he stay?

WITNESS:   Kwekwe was staying in Pumulong, but I don't know whether he's still in Pumulong or he has since moved.  But he is around Kroonstad.

UNKNOWN: You have also mentioned Mr Sidilwane, who was the headmaster.  He was the headmaster at Vuwithiko.  Is he still alive?

WITNESS:   Yes, he is still alive.

UNKNOWN: What is his name?  Do you still remember his name?  Is it Bhaki?

WITNESS:   No, it's not Bhaki.

UNKNOWN: It's Mrs Sidilwane.  It's Principal Sidilwane.  She's the one who was the principal at Vuwithiko, but she is now on pension.

WITNESS:   Yes, she's still alive and she is staying in Kroonstad.  We are close by.  We are just nearby each other.

UNKNOWN: What about her son, is her son still alive, and what's his name?

WITNESS:   I don't know his name, but he is no longer staying at his place.  He got married, but he is still staying in Kroonstad.

UNKNOWN: What about Pakwe, who was with Kwekwe at that time, is he still alive?

WITNESS:   No, Pakwe passed away.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever open up a case with regard to your son's death?

WITNESS:   Yes, my husband did open up a case.

UNKNOWN: Who is ... (inaudible)

WITNESS:   It's my husband, Abraham.  His friends took him to Johannesburg, where they engaged the services of an attorney.  They got two attorneys, but I have since forgotten the names of the attorneys.  The attorneys were Zimmerman as well as Steve Casswell.

UNKNOWN: How did the case go on?

WITNESS:   We attended the case, and when we got there we were directed to go to Court B in Kroonstad, the city centre.

UNKNOWN: Take your time, Mrs Mntuze.  Mr Abraham, had you come back for the case?

WITNESS:   Yes, I was called from Welkom and I was told that this had happened.  Then I rushed to Kroonstad.  And even when the case was being investigated I was given leave by my employers.

UNKNOWN: Can you please elaborate and tell us what happened in court?  You went to court and you went to Court B.  What happened when you went to Court B?  Did you have any legal representatives?

WITNESS:   Yes, we had legal representatives.  Caswell was there also, as well as Pakwe.  When the case started - the case was finalised on the very same day, and they said nobody was responsible for my son's death - that is Kwekwe's attorney - and the Magistrate stood up and went out.  When he came back he said that the case should be dismissed.

UNKNOWN: Did they ever give you a reason for dismissing the case?

WITNESS:   As I've already said they said there's no one who could be held responsible for my son's death.

UNKNOWN: Do you know Kwekwe's attorneys?  If you can't remember it's fine, we will conduct our own investigation.

WITNESS:  (No reply)