Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

UNKNOWN: When the members of the IFP came, that is the ones who had burnt Mr Luthuli's house, that's when we were called and we were chasing them, and when we were chasing them they ran into the Nqobo house and at the time that he was in the yard he shot at us and they got Skwayi Nqobo, that is Mr Nqobo's son who got into the house.  He was an IFP member.

MS THABETHE: The purpose was for you to get these guys and kill them.

UNKNOWN: Yes, we were chasing the members of Inkatha who had launched an attack on us and now we were launching a counter attack.  They ran into Nqobo's house and they shot from the inside of the house.  Our aim was that we wanted to kill the IFP members who had shot our many members.

MS THABETHE: I will leave that one for now.

ADV DE JAGER: Can't you clear it up?  He first said they shot from the yard and then you said from inside the house.  Was it from the yard or from inside the house?

UNKNOWN: They were shooting at us from the Luthuli place, they got into the yard and they got into the house.  That is where they started shooting, not in the yard and that is why we shot into the house, because whoever was shooting at us was inside the house.

MS THABETHE: According to the judgment the accused said there were two groups, one entered the kraal and then the other remained outside.  But today you are saying that the six of you remained outside.  Can you explain that to the Committee?
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UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: I said we stood outside, that is the yard.
We were inside the yard but outside the house.

MS THABETHE: So are you saying that you were inside the kraal but outside - I am not clear.

UNKNOWN: They were inside the house;  we were in the yard, not inside the house.  We were not outside the yard.

MS THABETHE: ...none of you got into the house.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you enter the kraal?

UNKNOWN: Yes, there was a kraal but we never got into the kraal.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you not enter the kraal?

UNKNOWN: Some of the members were waiting at the kraal looking out for some escapees but I personally was at the yard, inside the yard and not inside the kraal.

JUDGE WILSON: You were in the yard and not in the kraal.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, I was in the yard and not in the kraal.

JUDGE WILSON: None of you entered the kraal.

UNKNOWN: There were some who went into the kraal but some others were looking out on other areas of the yard so that the escapees be able to escape.

JUDGE WILSON: When you were talking about the kraal, do you mean the house or do you mean the house and the surroundings?

UNKNOWN: There was a cattle kraal in the house.  I was in the yard and that's where I was launching my attack.  I was shooting into the house.

MS THABETHE: I want to clarify that when we are talking about the kraal, I understand that the Nqobo Kraal includes the yard.  I mean we are not talking about the cattle kraal.  We are not talking about the kraal for the cattle, we are
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talking about the Nqobo Kraal where the victims were stabbed.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am sorry, I personally find this confusing.  The witness, when he speaks of the kraal, he means a cattle kraal and there is a house and there is a yard.  I assume the house is inside the yard, maybe it is a fenced yard.  Now you want to introduce a further concept of a kraal other than a cattle kraal.  How are you going to fit that in?  Do you want to distinguish between a yard, a cattle kraal and then kraal in another concept?  Is this not just becoming complicated now?  I don't understand this.

MS THABETHE: That is why I thought we should clarify whether  ....(intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It is clear.   There is a cattle kraal, there is a hut, there is a yard.

MR KUBONI: Is  it not better then to avoid the concept of a kraal, to just use the house and the yard.

JUDGE WILSON: Isn't one of the problems the fact that in the judgment the Judge refers to this witness giving evidence that they went via the Zulu kraal to the Nqobo kraal.  That clearly is not a reference to cattle kraals.  That is just a kraal as a housing unit, isn't it?

CHAIRPERSON: Including the surrounding land.   I think we should just simplify it.

MS THABETHE: Can I simplify it.  If you look at page 5 of the judgment, paragraph 2, it says
"While he and his group waited outside they heard gunshots from inside the kraal".
So we can't assume it was coming from the cattle kraal.  It was coming from the house.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I understand that.  I have no problems with
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that.  It is clear to me that when the judgment speaks of a kraal it is not talking about a cattle kraal.  I understood the concept of the yard to be synonomous with the kraal.  I wouldn't try to distinguish between a yard and a kraal.  You see what I mean.  Now I thought you were trying to distinguish between a kraal and a yard.  Is there a difference between somebody's yard and somebody's kraal?

MS THABETHE: That is what I thought I should clarify.  That a kraal includes a yard and house and then you have a kraal which means it is the whole area.  What I wanted to find out is by saying they entered the kraal, did they enter the yard but not the house, or what does he mean?  We are not talking about the cattle kraal because it is not relevant here.  That is not where the attacks occurred.  So I thought maybe it is important for us to clarify what we mean by kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please ask the applicant whether any of his companions entered the house?

MS THABETHE: ... enter the house where the victims were?

UNKNOWN: No, no one went into the house.

MS THABETHE: Can you explain how Thandazani and Peter were stabbed then?

UNKNOWN: Thandazani and Peter went out through a certain door, but I do not know whether when they were running they got injured inside.  I don't know what injured them because nobody went inside.  But what I suspect was that probably when they were trying to escape they were either cut by something but we did not participate in stabbing them because we had guns.

JUDGE WILSON: Was Peter and Thandazani stabbed?

MS THABETHE: I was just about to correct that actually they were shot at at a short distance.  Can he explain that to
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the Committee.  I beg your pardon members of the Committee?

INTERPRETER: What is it that you want the witness to explain?

MS THABETHE: Maybe I should rephrase my question.  According to the judgment Peter saw you shooting at a close range.  He saw you firing at all those present in the room.  So can you explain that to us?  Are you saying he was lying, since you didn't get into the house?  Can you explain how that happened?

UNKNOWN: I was shooting from the outside.  I was close to the window, but I did not see the people who were inside because they were inside, shots were coming from the inside of the house and I was firing into the house.  And Peter came, after I had stopped shooting, because the people who were attacking us from inside had also seized the attack on us.  So I asked him as to where the people who attacked us were but he did not answer me.

JUDGE WILSON: But what is being put to you is that the evidence that was led, according to the judgment, is that he said  he saw you come into the doorway of the room and saw you firing at all those present in the room, that is from the doorway of the room.  You heard that evidence at your trial didn't you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I did hear that evidence, but I did explain that I never went into the house.

JUDGE WILSON: ... Peter gave evidence that you did go into the house, that you show him and you shot Thandazani in the house.

UNKNOWN: No, that is not true.  I was shooting from the outside of the house.