Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-02

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman the next applicant is Mr Sidney Nkosi.  However, before he is called, I've been requested to address you on a certain problem, which I submit sir might have a serious impact on the smooth running of these hearings.
	Sir on Thursday last week all the legal representatives, together with Mr Andre Steenkamp and other officials of the TRC met at TRC offices, and it was in fact undertaken that transport would be arranged for the applicants to be brought here.  And the applicants needed that as they are all unemployed and cannot afford the transport costs which would be on a daily basis.  Now I am informed, Mr Chairman, that there has been a problem, the taxi drivers up to now have not been paid, they are threatening the applicants who cannot afford to pay them, and they have clearly stated that they will certainly not take them back home today, or bring them back here again.  Mr Chairman this could also lead to further violence because we all know how volatile the taxi industry is in this regard.  
	I am also informed, Mr Chairman, the secretary of the Amnesty Committee, Advocate Martin Coetzee, has said that they cannot give any assistance to the applicants and will only do so if you, Mr Chairman, order them to do so.  I cannot see anything in Act 34 of 1995 which authorises you or empowers you to make such an order, but I am asked to, because Advocate Coetzee says he needs a directive from yourself, I am requesting you Mr Chairman to make such a directive so that this, these proceedings can proceed.  It is, I would also mention that there was a request by member of parliament for the Tokoza, or who represents, from the Tokoza area, Mr Duma Nkosi, he requested that these hearings in fact be heard in Tokoza because, Mr Chairman, the Tokoza community that are affected by these hearings, it seems that they haven't attended and maybe the reason is the difficulty in getting to the city every day.  But be that as it may, we must concern ourselves with the applicants and their getting here, and I'd ask you to make an order.  Thank you sir.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman if I may be so rude to interrupt.  Maybe just a small amendment to what my learned colleague indicated, and that the minutes of the pre-trial or the pre-meeting will, pre-hearing will reflect this.  The position was that the logistical officer of the Commission is in charge of logistical arrangements and such an issue will obviously have to be made with the logistical director or the logistical person responsible for this hearing.  As far as my knowledge serves me no such undertaking was given that the TRC will in fact, as a point of principle, be responsible for the logistical arrangements of the applicants.
	However, the indication was, for myself, that the logistical officer will make such arrangements and decisions like this will obviously have to be taken by the Executive Secretary of the Amnesty Committee, or by the Chairperson of the specific hearing.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
...(blank on tape)

CHAIRPERSON: I have been asked to sanction payment of transport fees to attend this hearing on behalf of the applicants.  Mr technician I want what I'm going to say now to come over the loudspeakers to the public, not as per headphones.
...(blank on tape)
I want to break for five minutes.  I want to see the Logistics Officer please.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I have been asked to sanction payment of transport fees for all or some of the applicants to attend this hearing.  Mr Shane in this unusual application has indicated that serious problems may arise if these fees are not covered by the Commission.  ...(inaudible)
	I wish to point out that the fees requested is not a matter for, or covered by the rights which the applicants have.  As in any other hearing either in a Court of law or tribunal, such fees are not claimable from the State.  It is unfortunate that I have been told of threats or possible taxi violence should these fees not be paid.  The fact of the matter is that the applicants are the applicants in this matter, and they have chosen to make the applications.  	The hearings have been arranged for this venue and if they wish to continue with the applications they must therefore in terms of the Act come testify.  So it is for them to decide what they want to do.  I am not making a ruling.  These are just matters that I wish to point out, having been asked to make a decision on this matter.  Mr Shane is completely correct, that I am not empowered to make a decision on those fees.  I will not make such a decision.  Thank you.
	Yes Mr Shane?

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I hope that it can be resolved.  We will endeavour to do our best.  In the meantime I'd like to call applicant Sidney Nkosi.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman if I may be so rude to interrupt.  This application will be opposed by the victims in this case.  The victim who is present here is the mother of the late Mr Jabulane Nguwana, I'll give you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you - I'll give you an opportunity to do that Mr Steenkamp, I just want to find out from Mr Shane what page this application will be?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman on page 97 until page 103.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane you promised to give us identity numbers of the previous two applicants.

MR SHANE: I will do so Mr Chairman.  His name's Sidney Vincent Nkosi, identity number 701129 5371 08 2.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) 97. ...(inaudible) quite different.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I see in his original application form the number seven was left out.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the same person?

MR SHANE: It is indeed Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got an identity number for Mr Vusi Mbatha?  You promised to have it by lunchtime.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I'm sorry, it slipped me.  I will get it, I will obtain it now.

CHAIRPERSON: There's a lot of things slipping today. ...(inaudible) become an inconvenience Mr Shane, because every time we must refer to an old application.

MR SHANE: Mr Nkosi what language do you prefer to use?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to the taking of the oath?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SHANE: Mr Nkosi, you're applying for amnesty for the murder of one Jabulane Dube, is that correct?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: You're also applying for amnesty for your part in an attack on the Khumalo gang.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Can you tell the Committee as to your membership of the Self-Defence Units, what type of member were you?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Would you please repeat the question.

MR SHANE: Were you an ordinary member of the Self-Defence Unit?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: And that Self-Defence Unit was in the Slovo section?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That is correct, Slovo section in Tokoza Gardens.

MR SHANE: Were you not a commander in that unit?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

MR SHANE: When did you join the Self-Defence Unit?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: In 1990, as an underground.

MR SHANE: And you also are a member of the ANC.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Just before you move on Mr Shane.  Can I just get this right?  Slovo section and Tokoza Gardens is that one section or two sections?  I always try and differentiate between the old names and the new names.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: These are two different places.

ADV GCABASHE: So you were active in both Slovo and Tokoza Gardens?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: But you were only a commander in Tokoza Gardens?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR SHANE: And you explain to the Committee the circumstances which led you to be involved in the murder of Jabu Dube?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Would you please repeat the last part.