Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, is there an indication till what time we going to run?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I see I have three persons to my left.  I will try and, I'll keep it down to two or three more Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I'm not under oath Mr Chairman, not to answer that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Sir, once again I don't know if you have the whole bundle in front of you but I'm looking at the application of Mr Barnard, page 1 of the Form 1 which was prepared by your advocate and his erstwhile advocate and the question is 7(b) ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What page is that?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Page 1 on the bundle Mr Chairman.
"Mention the capacity in which you served the specific organisation.  If applicable your membership number if you had any"
and Mr Barnard then indicates that he's a:
"Gewone lid"
of the CP.

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Have you seen that?

MR LE ROUX: I see it here Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now that is totally contradictory to the evidence that you've given today in front of this Commission.

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: 7(a) Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]  What is your objection?

MS VAN DER WALT: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MS VAN DER WALT: The question which I heard which was put to the witness was that Mr Barnard was a normal member of the CP and it's written on top of page 2.  He did not testify that Barnard was a member of the CP and it's put to him that this contradicts his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me make it easier.
	Mr le Roux, earlier you testified that you heard and somehow accepted that Mr Barnard had a specific rank within the AWB or the Ystergarde then.  Do you understand that?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I understand that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In this application he was asked in what capacity he acted with regard to these incidents for which he is applying for amnesty, and here he answered that he was a normal member of the CP and I think the question is directed at you in order to get a comment from you concerning this.  The fact that you thought that he was something of the AWB but in his own application he says that he acted in the capacity of a normal CP member.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I can't really ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Just to be fair, question 7 of the application is in two portions, 7(a) and 7(b).  7(a) asks to which organisations he belonged and there he answers CP as well as the AWB and then 7(b) asks if he served in a specific capacity within those organisations and there he only deals with the CP and he says he is only a member of the CP and he had no real strong position there.
	So if you have to make an inference from the omission, it would rather be that maybe he was more involved with the AWB but the point is he doesn't deal with it at all so I do not think any inferences should be made from that.

MR LE ROUX: If I can add something there Chairperson.
...(tape ends)  ...[inaudible] would have ascribed more to him.

MR MALAN: I just think that the importance here is that he does not deal with it and that it's an omission within his application which unfortunately he now withdrew.

MR LE ROUX: I can believe that Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just a last aspect.  Sorry, I will move to English, one last aspect.
	On Sunday you wanted a large bomb to go off in a confined street with high buildings, that was the impression that was created with me, was that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: On Monday, was that when the Germiston bomb went off?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Had there been a change of plan?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, the Germiston bomb was a bit later than the normal time it would have exploded.  It was one of the things that Barnard and I discussed and he also said this.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But no longer needed the confined space with high buildings surrounding, as you had the previous day in Bree Street looked for?

MR LE ROUX: No, there weren't any high buildings.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Instead it was a taxi rank?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, that taxi rank was by the, one of the purposes there was the Volkskas building, in order to shatter those windows.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: It was a taxi rank and it was a black taxi rank in 1994?

MR LE ROUX: The bomb at that stage, the indication was that it was placed at the side of the taxi rank.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But nevertheless an open space, totally different to Sunday when you were looking for a confined built up area.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson, that is how Barnard and I discussed it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But why the change from Sunday to Monday?

MR LE ROUX: It is because the taxi rank had very congested traffic there, that is why we put it there.  I told him that the taxis would stand there and they wash the taxis, they just stand there, they are not busy with traffic themselves.  They do not carry people back and forth, the time was past for that.  The bomb went out later, specifically for that reason.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I put it to you that on Monday the target was a black target.

MR LE ROUX: It was not totally a black target, there were also white people killed in the explosion.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And it was done with total disregard for life.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, lives were taken.  It was part of what would happen when you plant a bomb and it was the same with the Church Street bomb Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But the point I'm trying to make was total disregard Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MOTLAUNG: I would have thought so Mr Chairperson.  For the record, Ike Motlaung for the victims, Mr Maseu and Mr Masekwa.
	Sir, could I find out, was there any particular format or plan that was followed in identifying your targets?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, I received the instructions, plus minus about where the bombs must be put and the actual places we discussed with each other and decided on a specific place.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes, but tell me, is the impression that I have correct, that to a very great extent you are the person who decided exactly where to plant the bomb?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Now, I'm asking you, as far as you are concerned yourself, did you have any particular way of going about identifying the targets?

MR LE ROUX: I did not have a specific way but as I've explained it to the Committee, I did place those bombs.

MR MOTLAUNG: Tell me Sir, this place that you decided that a bomb has to be planted in Germiston, did you know the place well?

MR LE ROUX: I was there a few times, several times in fact.

MR MOTLAUNG: Did you know Sir, that this was one of the busiest areas in Germiston at any given stage?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: And as a matter of fact I assume that you also knew that this place was in fact next to the biggest shopping complex in Germiston?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: And Sir, I know you have considered this, you seem to say that it is true that it was part of the plan that lives have to be lost.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.