Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MR NDIMA: No, it is not Ndabanintshi, it is Gampe.  Ndabanintshi died at the same time with Gampe.  Well I could see that they were coming to me.  Just to make sure that they were coming to me, I decided to run away, so I ran away and my first step, I realised that they were coming to me.
 You see when you are fighting against people, you never know, because you are all together, you never know who is on your side, so I ran towards another young man.  And this man held me and said where are you going, I said don't you see this men who are chasing me, I am running away from this men.
 He said no it is because of what you did last night, then I realised that something did take place the previous evening.
 These two men came and then they tossed me around and they pushed me, pushed me forcibly to where Memani was.  Memani with a group of men and Ndabanintshi said he was sharpening his (indistinct), he is a relative of mine.  He is sharpening his (indistinct) with a sand paper.  He said this old man, we must cut him to pieces.
 So I said to Ndabanintshi these people are not my relatives, you are not a relative, you know how to cut a person into pieces, here is a (indistinct), just cut a person into pieces and then he said hey, man, this old man, just take this thing to the hall.
 And so they took me forcibly to the hall, they decided against cutting me to pieces, so at the hall we found Mhlonyane, he was being kept by Koky and I said what has happened Mhlonyane, he said they say I am the one who went to inform you yesterday.
 Now they are detaining me here under the guard of Koky.  I said Koky, are you guarding this man and she said yes.  I said why, he said well, it is because of what you did last night.  I said okay, that is fine.
 Immediately after I said that, Memani came in.  Memani said, come, come, come Chawe.  I said Memani, don't take me away from here to another place so that when people here that you are beating me, they should find me here so that there should be no harm, because if they find me here still alive, they will be confused as to what to do.
 He said, no, come, come, come.  You are still behind times.  So you see there was a White man called Bezuidenhout, he is the one who gave the guns.  They relied on this guard.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you know Bezuidenhout, what was he?

MR NDIMA: His one was in Cape Town in charge of the Council.

MR NTSEBEZA: Who did he give the guns to?

MR NDIMA: He gave Memani to Ngxobongwana's group.

MR NTSEBEZA: What do you think was the reason for that?

MR NDIMA: The reason is that they didn't like Ngxobongwana.  They didn't like to see that Ngxobongwana was saying some things, because Ngxobongwana was not someone who begged any one.

MR NTSEBEZA: We just want to move faster.  You did go and report in our offices, I still have your statement.  I am just going to pick up things from them and then you will tell me when I am making a mistake.

MR NDIMA: Okay, remind me.

MR NTSEBEZA: You said whilst you were detained there, was that the day you were taken over to be taken to Detective and then at Bishop Lavis they said no, go back to Bishop Lavis?

MR NDIMA: Yes, they said we must go because we were under Guguletu.

MR NTSEBEZA: You went to Guguletu and there you met Poni?

MR NDIMA: No, we went to Guguletu, we found my daughter there, she heard that I was being killed at Sizamile, so she got up to Sizamile, didn't find me, went to Guguletu.  So when I got there, I said to Poni just phone people at Crossroads and tell them that I am still alive.
 I said to Poni take this child and take  her home because you can see there is nothing that is happening to me, take this girl and tell people that they shouldn't fight, because no harm has happened to me.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that the time the police came at the police station and then they told you that there was a fight going on, is that so?

MR NDIMA: Yes, that's so, that is so.

MR NTSEBEZA: And this policeman said nine people had died and Memani's house had been burnt down?  And when Poni got there, the fight stopped and he told them that no harm was done to you and then you remained at the police station until other people were arrested and then you were kept together with these men?

MR NDIMA: Yes, we were kept with these men, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: You were taken to court but you were discharged?

MR NDIMA: I was also taken to court because the gun that Memani was carrying was the cause of my being taken to court.

MR NTSEBEZA: Let's come back to the issue of the "witdoeke".  Let's come to the issue of the "witdoeke".

MR NDIMA: Of what - the "witdoeke"?

MR NTSEBEZA: Right, listen, didn't you by the way say that the presence started with ...

MR NDIMA: Excuse me, I didn't hear.

MR NTSEBEZA: You said the reason for the presence of the "witdoeke" was that people were being necklaced, burnt with tyres.  Then on a day in 1986, you went to Jerry Tutu's house in Nyanga East?

MR NDIMA: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you found that there was someone who was on fire?

MR NDIMA: Yes, yes, that is so.

MR NTSEBEZA: And was a burning tyre around the neck?

MR NDIMA: No, the person was not dead, the person was crying.  I said what was happening, how could you dance while a person is burning.  There were people who were dancing around this burning person, so I said how could you dance around a person who is dying.
 Then they said you ought to be necklaced yourself, they said come.  So I decided to keep quiet.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now where did you hear about the Kangaroo court?

MR NDIMA: Which one?

MR NTSEBEZA: The issue of Zwolani - there was information that people at Zwolani who had been arrested.

MR NDIMA: There was his followers were in Zwolani Centre in the kangaroo courts and they were going to be burnt down with necklacing so they already fitted their tyres.  And then Hoza came and fetched them.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was Magqaza also there?

MR NDIMA: Yes, he was there.  So they went to fetch them and they released them.  They left with the.

MR NTSEBEZA: These five people you sent to Nyanga East police station, why did you send these people there.

MR NDIMA: Oh, these five people to Nyanga East police station?

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

MR NDIMA: No, I don't know about those people, I know nothing about that.

MR NTSEBEZA: I think you said that you must send five delegates to Nyanga East police station?

MR NDIMA: No, it was three men to police station.

MR NTSEBEZA: What was the problem?

MR NDIMA: The problem is that we wanted to know from the police station how many people were arrested in connection with killing people with necklacing and the answer was no one had been arrested.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was that Nyanga East?

MR NDIMA: Yes, no that was in Guguletu because in Nyanga East we didn't go to Nyanga East because we were under Guguletu.
 So when we arrived there, we asked why were people being burnt and no one arrested and they said go to Athlone, we said no.  We came there, people dancing and one was being burnt, why were those people dancing while someone is being killed on fire?
 They said we don't know who burnt down this person.  I said to them, no, I think you are the ones who gave the instructions to the people to kill.
 If this was a White man burning, you wouldn't allow people to dance next to a dying person without arresting them.  You would have arrested them.  It is only because these people was Black and the one who is dying is Black, it is because you gave the instruction.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you say that to them?

MR NDIMA: Yes, I said it to them and they said no, we know nothing about that.  We want to see someone placing fire so that we can arrest.

MR NTSEBEZA: Why were they dancing?  And you said if this is a problem to you, leave it to us?

MR NDIMA: Yes, I said so.  Just give the matter to us, let the caspers leave, we will deal with this and see if this burning issue can't fade.  That's what I told the police.