Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I am not sure about giving instructions or the word instruction. What happened is I gave in a statement. I cannot remember what the statement said. That is all, that is all I had to do with the matter. I do not know whether giving a statement is instructing an attorney. I have never been an attorney before. I do not know about the procedures, legal procedures. I do not know how you instruct an attorney.

MR BOTMA: We started during March in 1994 the trial and it was postponed to July 1994 on that day you then changed your plea and you gave a different plea to the Court. Can you recall that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I cannot remember, it could be so or it could not be so.

MR BOTMA: And the reasons advanced at that stage for a change in plea was because of the change of the political situation. Can you recall that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do not know how many times I must say this. I have a problem. It is going to appear as if I am running away from questions. However I cannot recall exactly what happened during the trial. I am not disputing anything. I am not admitting anything.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I think if we can just be given that (...indistinct) maybe if I can go through with the witness because we do not have all this. Maybe with the applicant he may be able to recall some of these things? Because now he is taking certain portion which we have no knowledge offhand. He is always saying he does not remember. We do not know even the context of it.

CHAIRPERSON: The context as I understand it was that after an adjournment he changed his plea and gave an explanation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman we do not even know what was the plea. That is the problem. He changed his plea to what? We do not know what was the plea. We do not have the record.

MR LAX: Sorry is that a transcript you have there or are those notes or?

MR BOTMA: It is in fact a part of the transcript of the record of the proceedings up to a certain stage. And then thereafter the rest of the transcript is not available.

MR LAX: Should we not at least make a copy of that available or let them study it? Perhaps indicate what portions you propose referring to so that they can see those portions. It is a bit unfair to take them by surprise in a sense.

MR BOTMA: I do agree. I thought that this was not going to be disputed that is why I, we made copies of the rest of the record which is available, about what happened on a later occasion. But I my talk is going to be about the changing of the plea, that unfortunately the record is not available. I do agree that it should have been made (...indistinct)

MR LAX: Is it not maybe a practical suggestion to carry on with another line of questioning and then during the lunch break you can copy this and give them a chance to have a look at it and you can come back to this?

MR BOTMA: As it pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I would suggest that rather we would ask my secretary if she could start copying it now if you are not going to use that particular portion at the moment. Rather than try to do it during the lunch break.

MR BOTMA: It is fact only about 4 or 5 pages, so you can make copies at any time.

MR LAX: Let's please continue?

MR BOTMA: Thank you Mr Chair. Let's carry on. Can you recall that during this trial we had to go out for inspection in logo of the scene of the killing of Mike Meyers?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I vaguely remember that day.

MR BOTMA: And at the scene we were looking for a spot about 25 metres from the truck and there was no indication of any quarry or any indentation in the land and we walked further and then about 435 metres from there you pointed out a spot or the two of you pointed out a spot where the truck of Thanduxolo was parked. Can you recall that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Maybe my co-accused would remind me. I was not part of the trial. I did not participate. I did not furnish anything for the judge. I did not assist. I could not have assisted whilst I did not take part in the trial. I was a part of the trial in the sense that I had been arrested and charged. I did not recognise the person as a judge then.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something in your question. I thought I heard you say the place where Mike Meyers was killed and are you referring to that or to where Donne Meyers was killed?

MR BOTMA: I refer to the spot where Mike Meyers was killed. So you cannot recall, or let me ask you this way. Are you now saying that you did not participate in the pointing out of the spot where Thanduxolo's vehicle was parked at the first inspection in logo, that was at the scene where Mike Meyers was killed?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Perhaps you can remind me and tell me that look this is the role that you played or this is how you participated. But I personally do not remember taking part. Maybe I have forgotten. I would appreciate your help if you cold remind me and tell me that this is what you did and when.

MR BOTMA: Unfortunately I do not know what happened between yourself and your counsel but we walked towards a spot, that was you and your co-accused were leading, we were all following you and we walked around for some time and then you came to a spot and sort of the two of you, I cannot recall whom of the two but one of the two or maybe both of you pointed out the spot. That is the spot where Thanduxolo's vehicle was parked.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Before I answer. Who is it that pointed out the place? I am sorry for disturbing you. I am going to answer your question but I would like to know who pointed out the spot between him and I?

MR BOTMA: Either you or he or the two of you. I cannot recall that. Maybe your memory is better but it seems it is unfortunate (...indistinct) So you are unable to help us on that point?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No as I have stated to the Commission I have a problem I was beaten by the police. I am surprised that Botma does not mention that. I cannot stand in the sun with this, I have got pains on my head. I have got huge scars. I was beaten up. You know that I did not even go to the doctor. I was unable to go to the doctor. These things affected my memory. I am not through that. I go into spasms just sitting down, you know about my problem.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Botma. Have you taken any steps about your problem?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I did try. I was taken to a doctor. I still have the receipt. The police talked to the doctor. Doctor Tim Khulo is treating us. The doctor said that he could not see scars on my head but there were scars. I did not get assistance. The police spoke with the doctor.

MR LAX: Slow down a bit. It is very difficult for the interpreters to interpret and listen to you at the same time. Please just talk a little bit more slowly?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I do understand what does he mean by smuggling. He means that it was not properly handled. Everything was cooked, the report that he is well, there is nothing wrong with him.

MR LAX: So there was a cover up, is that what he is trying to say?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I am sorry I am used to the lingo that we use in exile. I am sorry about that. I did not then consult properly with a doctor to this day. Perhaps the Commission can understand that I still have a problem from 1993 and I am still suffering. I cannot even shower in jail. My head still aches when I shower. I cannot stand in the sun when other prisoners are out in the sun exercising I cannot go out. I have to stay in my cell. I go into spasms sitting down as if I am going to go into a fit. That is not my nature I know these things I got in the way I was beaten up by the police. This is why I have a lapse in memory. My memory is not as sharp as it should be.

ADV SANDI: Did you, sorry Mr Botma I do not intend to interrupt you. Did you tell your lawyer that you have such problems that you are not even able to remember these things? Does he know about that?