Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated.  Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Robertshaw, I just want to make this clear, you are not either Robert or Shaw, you're Robertshaw, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You filed an application and you're an applicant in the amnesty applications which are presently serving before this Amnesty Committee, and your amnesty application is to be found in the bundle at page 16 to 22, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Subject to your evidence here today, do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the contents of that amnesty application?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I do, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You also - on your behalf was drawn a statement of the evidence that you will give before this Committee, in order to be of assistance to the Committee, and that is pages 22A to C of the same bundle, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: At page 22A, you refer to the General Background document, which we know very well at this stage, and you told me, is that correct, that except for the references to Botswana and Swaziland, you are able to confirm from your own knowledge and experience, the broad background set out in that document, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you ask that that be incorporated when your application for amnesty is considered by this Committee.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Robertshaw, you at page 16, under paragraph 17A and B, the answers given there are "not applicable, not applicable" - Chairperson, it just occurred to me that although I'm sure Mr Lax and Mr Sibanyoni has heard this before, but I don't think anybody's ever given you personally an explanation as to how it came about that in all the applications of almost all of the applicants of Mr Wagener, these answers were given as "not applicable, not applicable".  And there's a simple answer to that, Chairperson, an explanation, and that is, Mr Wagener read the question incorrectly and we gave the other Committees, before we appeared, this explanation and it has been accepted.  But clearly, Chairperson, instead of interpreting that question restrictively, it should have been interpreted widely as including members, supporters and everything, Chairperson.  So we would ask you to allow paragraph 7A to read
"National Party"
and 7B, to read:
"Supporter"

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, your sequence is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Is that correct, Mr Robertshaw?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now Mr Robertshaw, perhaps if we can forget about the papers for the moment, can you give the Committee - first of all, you joined the Security Branch at Ladybrand in 1986, according to your amnesty application, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what was your status at Ladybrand, in the Security Police?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I was second-in-charge of the branch in Ladybrand.

MR VISSER: And who was your commanding officer, the Branch Commander?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Capt Fouche.

MR VISSER: Is that Frik Fouche?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Frik Fouche, yes.

MR VISSER: And at some stage you became involved with the gathering of information, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Was that from the beginning, or did that happen a little later on?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That was from the beginning, Mr Chairper-son.

MR VISSER: So when you were transferred to Ladybrand, you immediately became involved in the gathering of information?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now, do you recall from your own knowledge and recollection, when the incidents, the events took place which led to the present application for amnesty?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That happened towards the end of 1987.

MR VISSER: 1987.  When you say "towards the end", can you be more specific?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: The last few months before the end of the year.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now just give the Committee a sense of how your - if I may refer to it as a unit, it wasn't really a unit or was it?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It was a section, I'd refer to it as a section.

MR VISSER: How did you work with this section, how did you go about things?  Can you just tell the Committee, give us a sense of your day to day basis of how you operated.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well the section referred to was basically responsible for the gathering of information in Lesotho, concerning mainly the PAC and the ANC, so these people had to concentrate on that work.  They would - we'd come together on an ad hoc basis, if they had information about something that had transpired in Lesotho, something that they had brought to my attention, they'd come into my office, we'd discuss it, I'd tell them what to do with the information, put it into report form, get more information, whatever the case was.  It wasn't - there weren't so-called formal meetings about this whole thing, it was conducted on a day to day basis.

MR VISSER: On an ad hoc basis?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: On an ad hoc basis.

MR VISSER: And when you say they would come to your office, would they always come together, all three of them or would they sometimes comes separately?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, not at all, they'd come separately, they'd come together.  For instance, if W/O Jagga and Jantjie had been to Lesotho and they'd gathered information, then perhaps only Jagga would come to me office, sometimes they'd together, sometimes one of them would come.  It wasn't a specified meeting that I'd had with them.

MR VISSER: My attorney is just passing a note to the witness to go a little bit slower, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I noticed that the past was reduced.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I'm sorry, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was there any reason - you see, let me put it to you this way, Mr Thulo seemed to have given the impression that he was excluded from certain inner circle discussions about information that was gathered in Lesotho, was that the position?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you remember today from your own recollection, your meetings not having been formal minuted meetings, who attended gatherings, each gathering for example in regard to the present four victims when discussions took place about them?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I cannot remember that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So if Mr Thulo says that he was not present when Ms Betty Boom was discussed, can you argue with that?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I'm in no position to argue with that.

MR VISSER: But it wouldn't have been because he was intentionally excluded?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Not at all, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now Mr Robertshaw, you were personally involved only in the fetching of two of these people, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Which two were they?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Betty Boom and Tax Sejanamane.

MR VISSER: You heard the evidence about how it came about that Betty Boom was recruited as an informer.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I did, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And does that evidence accord with your recollection of what you were told at the time?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It does, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And also as far as the others are concerned?