Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — 1997-12-04

MR MCADAM: In the same period of time in South Africa there were various human rights organisations that were very active and made some averments that prominent leaders were being murdered and the people detained are tortured in detention.  As far as you know what was the State Security Council's reaction to these averments?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: The State Security Council in it's dealing with the revolutionary climate  and how it was dealt with it consequently said that no illegal action had or would  be allowed and that all attempts must be mobilised from the side of the State.  I have already mentioned before that the internal situation was supposed to be stabilised to such an extent that the political negotiations that have already been started there could be guided that we could have a true democracy  in  South Africa.
 I must perhaps place this in the perspective that one of the main negotiating points in the discussions before Mr Mandela's release and also at Groote Schuur and the Pretoria minute was the question surrounding the ending and suspending of violence by the ANC as everybody can well remember.  One of the difficult points was that a prominent member in the search for  peace did not want to end the violence. At the Pretoria minute the word "suspension" was mentioned, the "suspension" of violence was then accepted.    The violence the question of violence the argument is that at the beginning of the negotiating processors  one of the very prominent main parties to the solution of this conflict was not at that stage willing and prepared  to leave violence.  
 That is then very important and  it must be stress that the South African goverment could not just simply leave its security forces in order to ensure that there is peace in the country when one of the main parties to negotiations did not want to stop violence.  MR McADAM :   Was it brought to the attention of the security forces that human rights violations were committed by the military and by the police?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: One was of course aware of certain steps that were being taken, people who were being murdered.   We did know about it because we were very upset and worried about that because we didn't think  that,  that was the way  to go about.

MR MCADAM: What did you do about this information I discussed?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I discussed it with my colleagues of the Defence Force and the police and I told them that it seemed to me as if in the executive levels, I must stress this, this is a very important point, at the executive levels regarding the policy that we wanted to implement these people were acting illegally. I do not have any proof thereof but I suspect that it is happening and that that would be something that is very important to consider.
 Then Mr Chair it is not the task of the Head one department to make sure that these matters are addressed in other departments. I would like to repeat  I had discussions with them and indicated to them that at the executive level there are people indulging in illegal actions, I did not have any information to prove this but I informed them that they had to investigate the matter.

MR MCADAM: At what level did you address the questions at the departments?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Mr Chair I had just said the Head of the Defence Force and the Commissioner of Police.

MR MCADAM: What was their reaction?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: They said colleague we thank you for the information, do you have any factual evidence?   I said no, I read it and I see it in the papers and they said that they would to the best their ability  pay attention to the matter or attend to the matter.

MR MCADAM: The National Intelligence service under which Minister did it resort?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: National Intelligence services functioned under the auspices of PW Botha the State President.

MR MCADAM: Did you monitor  that after you have transferred this to the Head of the Defence Force and the Commissioner of Police it was taken any further.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: As the process proceeded such actions were taken it was not my responsibility to invigilate what was going on in South Africa at that stage lawfully and unlawfully.  At more than one stage I brought that to my colleagues attention and I would stand by my answer that I have just given.

MR MCADAM: You said that it was not your department's to interfere in other departments?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: When I discussed the Security Department's situation in my submission I said that each department had its own function I have chosen my words like that.   The members of the Intelligence community did not try to spy on each other.  In any country this would not be allowed that members of Intelligence branches spy on each other.  We therefore did not do that.

MR MCADAM: Did you at any stage give this information  directly to Mr Botha ?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: In that climate at the end of the 80's when this conflict was going on at various stages I voiced the same sentiments towards Mr Botha.  .....(intervention)

MR MCADAM: What....

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: If you can just give me a chance I told him, Sir it seems as if there are problems regarding the communication, I said that there must be some misunderstanding somewhere.  I do not have facts to verify this but it seems to me as if members of the security branches could possibly be involved in some of these things which are illegal and we cannot be involved in illegal actions.

MR MCADAM: What was his reaction?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: He said that he was also very worried about it that he would deal with this at a political level.

MR MCADAM: Can you remember in which year this was?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: It is difficult to say......

MR MCADAM: A certain year would you say it was the middle 80's or late 80's?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I cannot remember all the details of the events but this kind of thing would have occurred during the discussion between the Head of the Intelligence Services and the Head of the State under which he acted.  It would have been around somewhere 1986 the emergency  the State of emergency I was still at NI at the stage when Mr de Klerk came into office

MR MCADAM: : Was there anything official from the State Security Council which said that these channels had to be cleared or that the junior officers had to.....?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I would like to understand your question please can you just repeat it for us please.

MR MCADAM: You said that you conveyed these concerns to Mr Botha and he also indicated that he also had the same concerns what I want to determine is did the State Security Council formulate any policy to curb such actions?
 If we refer to the documentation there was an in-depth discussion of for example the combatting of activists,  the various methods of dealing with them was there a similar document on control over the Security Forces?