Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

M R NDLOVU: Yes a long time ...[indistinct]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now finally, will I be correct to state that yourself and your brother Tabani did not have any authority from the leadership to kill the deceased?

M R NDLOVU: All the information that I received was from Tabani and I assumed that he had communicated to the leadership because I knew him to be responsible for the protection of IFP members in the area and whatever I did I did in assisting Tabani.  I was sent by him to monitor and trace this Gumede.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ndlovu, I'm asking you this question deliberately because on page 12 of the papers, I'm going to quote to you what you've said.  You say
"The attacks on the victim was our own initiative, we were not instructed by any person."

MR LAX: Just to add to that, in your earlier evidence this morning when you were asked initially whether Tabani had got approval from anybody else, you also said he didn't need approval, he was the youth leader, he could do what he liked, he was charge of the security?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.

M R NDLOVU: I was trying to explain that this matter had been discussed between myself and Tabani because he was the person closest to me as a youth leader.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then just let's not confuse it, let's go back to my initial question and just answer that question.  Yourself and your brother had not authority, were not given any authority by the IFP leadership to kill the deceased?

M R NDLOVU: I would not lie and say some people had given us that instruction, nobody did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now the last question.  By killing the deceased, what did you hope to achieve politically?

M R NDLOVU: Our political objective was to stop the supply of weapons by Mr Gumede to the ANC in Pietermaritzburg.  We wanted to strengthen our organisation and to defend it against or protect it against attack.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was the deceased's death going to enhance the political picture of the IFP or the political status of the IFP?

M R NDLOVU: The death of the deceased would have assisted the IFP because the conflict between the two organisations would stop because the ANC would no longer receive those weapons from Mr Gumede.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I don't want to belabour this point but let me put it something as a follow up for the last time.  Am I correct from your last answer to state that the conflict between the ANC and the IFP, actually that's what you say in your second application, paragraph 10(a).  The conflict between the IFP and the ANC would be stopped, am I correct?  Is that what you said?

M R NDLOVU: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be then correct to state that that would have no political gain for the IFP but simply that there should be peace in the area.  Is my conclusion correct?

CHAIRPERSON: What are you trying to get at here, Mr Mpshe?
What do you mean by political gain?  In that by stealing the gun they're going to get more voters in the election or not?  What do you mean by political gain?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: By political gain, Mr Chairman, I'm referring to the enhancement of the political status of the IFP inter alia that they inter alia ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well I mean if you've got a war situation and you get peace, doesn't everybody gain from that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, everybody would gain but I'm being particular to the IFP because it was during this particularly.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright we can hear it but it seems a little bit obtuse.

M R NDLOVU: There would be peace and people would be able to join the IFP because we wanted to strengthen our organisation.  We wanted the IFP to be strengthened at Mpumuza.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That was the question I was expecting, Mr Chairman, thank you it was very clear, my question, thanks.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr de Klerk do you have any re-examination?

MR DE KLERK: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Ndlovu, you said at that time subscriptions for IFP was R10.  Did you ever pay subscription to be a member of the IFP?

M R NDLOVU: Yes I did.

MR SIBANYONI: At that stage were you as a police officer from kwaZulu Police allowed to be a member of a political party?

M R NDLOVU: I joined the IFP in 1987 before I became a member of the kwaZulu Police.  That is how I came to pay that R10.

MR SIBANYONI: So as a member of a political party you would be employed as a police officer in the kwaZulu Police?

M R NDLOVU: Yes they did employ me.

MR SIBANYONI: The deceased was a police officer.  You were also a police officer.  Was it not the proper thing to report him to the police instead of attacking him?

M R NDLOVU: Because of our support for the IFP we did not see a reason to report the matter to the police because there was already a war going on in Pietermaritzburg.  We felt that the deceased should be attacked without having to report the matter to the police.

MR SIBANYONI: When you were before the court for your criminal trial was it not the best thing to say to the court this person was supplying arms to the ANC, he was committing an offence, I was trying to stop him from doing that or defending the IFP?

M R NDLOVU: I pleaded not guilty in court.  I thought that because nobody else knew about it, nobody else had the information except for myself, Tabani and Mr Zondo and Mr Zondo did not see anything and therefore I decided to plead not guilty and I decided not to admit that I had indeed committed the crime.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it merely a coincidence that you and the deceased were police officers and the planning was done by you and your brother and it took place at your home and after the operation the firearm was never reported to the IFP.  In other words everything just ended between you and your brother.  Was it a sheer coincidence?

M R NDLOVU: As far as I knew, I thought that Tabani had communicated and explained and reported the matter to the IFP leadership, that is what I knew because he told me everything was alright and was going well and I was surprised that nobody else had been informed because I knew him to be a trusted member of the IFP.

MR SIBANYONI: Will you perhaps try to clear this perception.  The perception would be, or it would seem that this was more of a personal thing than of a political thing, this attack on the deceased?  What is your response?

M R NDLOVU: I would strongly disagree with that.  We had political objectives.  We would not travel from Pietermaritzburg from Durban to kill the deceased just because of a personal grudge.  We had received information that he was supplying weapons to the ANC to attack us.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Just to pick up where my colleague is busy with you.  This person came from Maritzburg, it's not like he was some person from Durban that was based in Durban, isn't that so, this deceased?

M R NDLOVU: The deceased will come to Sibonelo Dlamini's place in Pietermaritzburg.  He did not reside in Pietermartizburg as according to the information that we received.

MR LAX: So are you saying that Gumede didn't come from Pietermartizburg and he himself didn't come from Kaluza?

M R NDLOVU: Mr Gumede would come to see ANC members in Pietermartizburg but according to the information that I got, he did not reside there but he would come there to see his colleagues.

MR LAX: Why didn't you just go to Gumede and say to him: "Listen Gumede, we know about you, if you don't stop this business we're going to kill you and we're going to report you to the police and we're going to insure that you never do this again."?