Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It could have been his base, not mine.

MR RICHARD: Yesterday I produced a statement by one of  your co-applicants, Sipho Tshabalala, which was handed in as Exhibit A, did you get a copy and have you seen it?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I saw it.

MR RICHARD: So you've read it?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I just perused it.

MR RICHARD: What is your comment, does it represent what happened on the 24th of January?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I can only respond if you ask me with regards to specific issues in the statement.

MR RICHARD: Because in that statement, I'll go through it point by point if that's what is wanted, Mr Tshabalala says
"I met Godfrey Dhlomo at about 3 p.m.  This was on Sunday the 24th of January 1988.  I met him at my lady.  We were in a house in Naledi.  George was the first to come.  In the house was myself, Clive Makhubu, Joe and another one whose name I don't know.  And I said Godfrey was the last to come."
Do you have any comment on that first paragraph?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Can I speak to my lawyer before I respond to that question?

CHAIRPERSON: No, you've had ample opportunity, your lawyer had this before he called you to give evidence.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: The fact that I have been with the attorney does not mean that I should be denied the right to speak to him if I want to consult.

CHAIRPERSON: You are being cross-examined now, you do not have a right to consult with your attorney during the middle of questioning.  Will you please answer the question.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: To respond to that question, briefly that statement is untrue.

MR RICHARD: Why would ...(intervention)

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I know about that statement.

MR RICHARD: What do you know about this statement?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: If you are not aware I can just inform you that my signature appears on that statement.

MR RICHARD: Is your signature the second signature on the second page of the document?  There's a Tshabalala and a signature underneath  that, is that your signature?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is my signature.

MR RICHARD: How come were you there when the statement was given, how did you get to be present?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: On that day Sicelo had been with me in the morning and there were people who saw me with him, but I do not remember who these people were.  On that day Sipho had been with him and there are people who were witness to this, and to actually stamp out all trace that would have led us, let the trace to us, that is why we wrote this statement.

MR RICHARD: Now when you wrote this statement where did you go to write this statement?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We went to an attorney, but I'm not sure where.

MR RICHARD: If I told you that attorney was in Commissioner Street in Johannesburg, would that help you remember?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It would not because I do not remember where it was.

MR RICHARD: Now who decided to go to the attorney?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I discussed it with Sipho and I saw it as an option that we could use so that we would not be the people suspected.

MR RICHARD: Now why did you choose that particular attorney to go to?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: There is no specific reason, but I knew that whatever may come after writing the statement may not implicate us, but there was nothing specific or special about the attorney.

MR RICHARD: Did you go to that attorney to obtain legal advice on what might be a potential murder charge against you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't remember us requesting legal advice.

MR RICHARD: So that means you did not give the statement to the attorney so as to enable him to advise you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: When we gave the statement we were not seeking legal advice because at that time we were working underground and if I needed such advice it would have meant that I would have to go to Court and attend trials, and that is what I was not going to do.

MR RICHARD: Now on what basis did you choose this particular attorney's office to go and give a statement to?  What were your reasons for going to that office?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I can say is that I was not familiar with the offices so there was nothing specific, there was nothing specific or special about choosing that particular office.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone advise you to go to that office?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I have already mentioned this before ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: Then I should understand that out of all the lawyers in Johannesburg, this was a completely random choice, that there was no reason at all why you went to this firm of attorneys.

MR KOOPEDI: The witness has said that he didn't know anything about lawyers in town, only his friend Sipho did and they went there because Sipho said they should go there.

ADV SANDI: Yes but Mr Richard, I understand you want to find out from the witness whose idea was it that they should go to this particular attorney, not so?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Who said suggested that Mr Makhubu?  Who suggested that you should go to this particular attorney?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We decided, that is myself and Sipho, that we should go to that particular attorney because he's the one who actually recommended him.

CHAIRPERSON: Sipho recommended him?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Did Sipho tell you why you should go to that particular attorney?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: If I'm not mistaken I think it is because he was used to him, he knew him.

MR RICHARD: Were you aware that the deceased had consulted with that firm on a good number of occasions in the past, had reported various other incidents to him?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I was not.

MR RICHARD: And were  you aware that that firm of attorneys in fact wrote letters to the doctors performing the post-mortem, to assist in the investigation of the death?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was not aware of that.

MR RICHARD: Now what I do hear you saying now was that you decided to go and give this attorney a statement that was incorrect and did not represent the true facts of the matter, is that correct?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, that is so.

MR RICHARD: Why would you not want this attorney to know the true facts of the matter?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He was not a member of the underground structure and therefore there was no need to inform him of what had happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that you were just trying to safeguard your name in case anybody suspected you?  You nodded your head, does that mean yes?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I was trying to protect myself in case I was suspected.

MR RICHARD: So that means you knew that this firm of attorneys were investigating the death of the deceased and you did not want them to find out the truth, is that not correct?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, that is not correct.

MR RICHARD: Well then why didn't you tell them the truth?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Why would I have had to tell them the truth about my underground activities?

MR RICHARD: Very well.  Did you know that the attorney was investigating the circumstances and the death of the late Sicelo Dhlomo?

CHAIRPERSON: Was he on that occasion?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he start the investigation?

MR RICHARD: The day afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: The 26th?

MR RICHARD: Correct.  The statement was taken on the 28th, which is three days later.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any way that you could have known that this attorney had been investigating from the 26th?

MR RICHARD: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct).  Were you in touch with the deceased's family, Sicelo Dhlomo's family?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in touch with Sicelo Dhlomo's family immediately after his death?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I met with them.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Before his burial.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?