Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR LAX: So you have no recollection of what Botha did during this "arrest"?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: After du Preez said "we've got the order, let's go, the signs been given" even prior to that I hadn't seen Mr Botha, Sir.

MR LAX: You see Botha's evidence was that he approached the driver's seat.  He approached and he stuck his hand through the window, he had his firearm in his hand and he told him words to the effect of "Be calm, don't do anything silly".

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I recall that evidence being heard.

MR LAX: But you have no independent recollection of that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr chairman, I don't recall seeing him, however, he must have placed himself on the spot.

MR LAX: And as far as you were able to, you didn't see what he did?  As far as you're concerned.  Your own testimony.  You heard him give that evidence, that's one thing.  You have no recollection of what he did whatsoever?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I don't.

MR LAX: Now, you've said that on the 12th van der Westhuizen was busy with observation due to his Brickhill Road, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: And you and du Preez were at the Knoll?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR LAX: And we've heard the evidence of Botha that it was only the  three of you that were guarding these two, so who was guarding them on the 12th when you were busy with your observations?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The C4 members, I believe.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I believe perhaps the C4, the C20.

MR LAX: You see, he told us that only the three of you were guarding.  It's also his evidence that the C20 people had no idea that these people were - anything unlawful to do with them.  Now they were never left there unattended at any stage, that's self-evident.  How could the three of  you be out on other duties, when according to his evidence, you were supposed to be guarding them?  At lease one or two of you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, Mr Chairman, perhaps he was referring to the Durban members, but if we were not there at all at the time, then C20 were also policemen and they could also do the guarding but they were really, I would presume, to be out responsibility as Durban members.

MR LAX: Now Botha's told us that the C20 people had no knowledge of the unlawfulness of their detention.  What legend did you give them?  They stayed there for a couple of days.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman, I never saw fit to give them any explanation.  I'm not sure what Mr Botha would have said.

MR LAX: But listen, I've been to that house.  Let me tell you straight, I've been, I've seen its layout, I observed the exhumation there, it's not a huge house, it's a relatively small house, it's about four or five rooms at the most, if I remember correctly.  Are you talking about the house where the body was buried?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't believe I am, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Pumuza Ncweni?  he was exhumed on that farm.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, no, sorry Sir, it's a different house.

MR LAX: Is this a different place?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: So there were two safe-houses in the Verulam area?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, there were two.

MR LAX: Fair enough, I won't take that aspect any further.  If the layout of the house was different, and we're talking about two completely different places, so be it.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I think Mr Botha said Blackburn, in his evidence, did he not?

MR LAX: I think he did.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Different house to the other one, which is also at Verulam.

MR LAX: I think the other one was called Churchill or something like that.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Waterloo.

MR LAX: Waterloo, that was it.  Thank you.  The last aspect I wanted to just touch on was, surely the fact that nobody questioned Shabalala and that he was not being interrogated would give him the impression that something was strange here?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't dispute that, Sir.

MR LAX: Because yesterday Gen Steyn conceded that the whole conduct towards Shabalala would have increased the chances of him suspecting Ndaba and was totally out of sync with what you normally would have done in those circumstances.  Would you agree with that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, it was wrong and it was out of sync.

MR LAX: Now, if it was the intention from the very beginning to simply eliminate these two people, then it wouldn't have mattered whether they realised Ndaba was an informer or not, whether Shabalala realised, and what it might be argued is that your conduct and the conduct of all of you present there, is consistent with that course of action, in other words with the intention to kill from the outset.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no, I had no idea that there was going to be any elimination on the outset, I was led to believe that Ndaba was in fact an agent of the branch.  It would never have occurred to me that we were to eliminate an agent of the branch.

MR LAX: Did the fact of Botha's eliminating his own agent not strike you as strange?  That he did it himself?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It struck me as very strange, Mr Chairman, very strange indeed.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: I'd just like some clarification on one issue Mr Wasserman.  When you were instructed to keep surveillance at the two safe-houses of the ANC, let me first ask you this, who gave you the instructions to go there and to keep observation there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was Mr Botha.

ADV BOSMAN: Now did it come up at all that it might be at some stage or other, become necessary to effect any arrests there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, no, it never became evident upon instructions of arrest, because as far as I was concerned it was to be an Intelligence operation.

ADV BOSMAN: So there were no guidelines, or no directives given to you in regard to possible arrests?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Nothing given to me.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you consider your position?  Did you think that you could arrest or that  you should be careful in effecting arrests?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: We knew that the first principle was to observe and identify all parties visiting these premises and it was a very intricate SACP ANC operation, but as for specifics of arrest, I personally was never instructed one way or the other.

ADV BOSMAN: The reason why I'm asking you this question, Mr Wasserman, is because it did seem strange to me that Mr Botha did not deem it fit to sort of warn you about not making arrests and he seemed to indicate in his evidence that he was quite comfortable that no arrests would be made.  Do you have any comment on that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, perhaps, he was the colonel on the spot, perhaps he should have given a clear instruction one way or the other.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it seems that we've come to the end of this day.  Perhaps, Mr Chairman if we might take up a little bit of your time by seeing you in chambers and try to arrange our lives for tomorrow, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we're going to have to adjourn.  Till what time should we adjourn?

MR VISSER: Tomorrow morning 9.30 Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Well we're now adjourning till 9.30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS