Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR MAZIBUKO: Immediately we started shooting to the direction of the SDU, they were a group.  After we shot at them that is where we dispersed.  Others followed those who went into yards, others followed those who were running in the streets.  So it is in that point where we took different directions, so nobody can say the group from Mkhize ran to a particular direction and those of the other group ran in a different direction.

MS TANZER: So in fact, when you gave chase and followed these suspected SDU members, did you not lose sight of the rest of the residents of the hostel who were attacking Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was always inside of our members of the Madala hostel, those who were attacking because we were all within that vicinity.

MS TANZER: You gave evidence that when you proceeded back to the hostel after leaving Boipatong, you saw police vehicles coming from Boipatong and moving towards Vanderbijl Park, is it possible that you saw any of these vehicles in the Boipatong location at any time whilst you were attacking it?

MR MAZIBUKO: If they were within Boipatong during that time we were attacking I could have seen them.

MS TANZER: Your evidence was in chief that the vehicles were coming from Boipatong to Vanderbijl, those were your words.

MR MAZIBUKO: When I remember well I said when I started seeing these cars I saw them on the tarred road between the factories and Boipatong.  They were moving from this direction to Vanderbijl.

MS TANZER: Is it possible they could have been coming out of Boipatong, moving towards Vanderbijl?

MR MAZIBUKO: There were cars which were patrolling within Boipatong and those who were patrolling in the factories.  It might be possible that they were coming from the factories or within inside Boipatong.

MS TANZER: So it is possible?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not commit  myself in that regard.

MS TANZER: How many people would you say were there when you proceeded back to the hostel in your group, after giving chase of the SDU members, alleged SDU members?

MR MAZIBUKO: Those who followed the SDUs, we divided ourselves into two groups.  There were those who were running in the streets, there were those who went inside the yards.  I would not be able to estimate those who took a particular direction and the opposite direction.  I'm not able to estimate.

MS TANZER: But was it not your evidence that you gave chase, you were chasing the SDU members, the suspected SDU members.  Were you not following them as they were running?

MR MAZIBUKO: Those I was running after, they went into the yards but we did not see where they ended up, we did not see where they ended.  We entered into those yards and then we couldn't see them.

MS TANZER: So approximately how many of your group was left when you proceeded back to Boipatong, sorry the hostel?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question, Ma'am?

MS TANZER: Approximately how many were there in his group when he proceeded back to the hostel.

MR MAZIBUKO: I'll put it this way.  When we entered Boipatong we dispersed in various directions, when we returned there were those who came back from various streets and other streets.  I'm not able to estimate how many were left behind when we were in front, returning to the hostel.

MS TANZER: So would you say there were like hundreds that were returning at the same time or 100 returning, or were there 10 returning?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's put it this way; on your way back to the hostel, how many people were working with you then at that stage, do you know?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would put it this way Sir.  When we returned to the hostel, those who were in front of me were not so many.  There were those who were still behind, there were those who were in front.  It is difficult to estimate how many there were in front of me and those who were behind me.

MS TANZER: So what made you decide to proceed back to the hostel?  What led to that decision not to continue attacking and to return?

MR MAZIBUKO: When we were inside Boipatong whilst we were still attacking, people shouted that we should get out and return.  I would not say what is the particular reason which made us to return.  I heard voices shouting that we should return, then we got out of Boipatong.

MS TANZER: When you arrived back at the hostel, would you say you were one of the first in the group or were you one of the last of the group that returned?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was in the middle.  There were those who were in front of me, there were those who arrived first and we arrived later and the other group arrived after us.

MS TANZER: Mr Chairman, my question; how many people actually were with him when he was crossing the street is relevant because at least to my next question which I want to ask which is basically, when they were crossing the street they said they saw the suitcases and they weren't noticed.  So if they were about a few hundred men or a hundred men running, they should be noticed.  And my question was:  how many people were you crossing that street?

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you listen to his, to the import of his evidence, it amounts to this;  there were people who were ahead of him, there were people who were behind him.  He is not in a position to estimate how many people were there, either in front of him or behind him.  I think it is common sense that there must have been a fairly large group of people who were returning.

MS TANZER: Did you make your way to Slovo Park on your way back to the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: When we returned to Madala Hostel, yes I arrived, I entered Slovo Park.  The first street or the second street we went out of it outside Slovo Park or the other township.

MS TANZER: Did you attack anyone in Slovo Park?

MR MAZIBUKO: Where I attacked in Slovo Park there were shack houses and there were houses ...(indistinct).  That is, I never entered in the informal settlement area but I attacked the houses next to the informal settlement.

MS TANZER: Why did you not mention in your evidence-in-chief when you were led the evidence-in-chief, that Mabote started shooting at the suitcases when he saw the suitcases?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was never asked.

MS TANZER: Did they return the fire?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, they never shot.

MS TANZER: Do you know of any reason why he would shoot if you were not noticed and he knew you were not noticed?

MR MAZIBUKO: Are you asking if I should know the reason why he shot?

MS TANZER: Yes.

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't know the reason why he shot at them.

MS TANZER: When you were living at the kwaMadala hostel, were you employed?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was unemployed.

MS TANZER: How did you manage to maintain yourself at the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: The room in which I was staying, I was staying in two rooms.  I was staying with Nana Tshabango.  He was taking care of me, he was supporting me or maintaining me.

MS TANZER: You gave evidence that you know Vic Keswa was not a member of his hit squad and had nothing to do with it.  Did you have any relationship with him?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, he was my friend.

MS TANZER: Whilst you were at the hostel, were you aware of the existence of a police officer known to you as Peens?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know him.

MS TANZER: Were you aware of the existence of a police officer known as Shaka?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know him.

MS TANZER: Did you know of a police officer or a member of the police force known as Rooikop?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know him.

MS TANZER: Were you aware of the complaints of the residents prior to the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was one of those who was complaining that I was not able to go to the township to my friends and my family because we'd be kidnapped.  You would be afraid even to go to the robots.  You can only get out of the hostel if there is a car which goes out.

MS TANZER: So why did you not attend the meetings to voice your complaints?