Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-30

DR MAGWAZA: We greet you, Mr Mthetwa.  We do apologise for having kept you waiting up until this time.  We thank you very much, and appreciate that you are here with us today.  You have come before this Commission today to tell us about your brother, Thamsanqa Mthetwa.  Before you start relating to us as to what took place at your home just give us a brief background about your family, as well as your brother.  Do you still have parents?

WITNESS:   I originate from Nambithi, but at present we are staying at Lamontville.  My parents were church-going people, they were christians.

DR MAGWAZA: Are they still alive?

WITNESS:   My father is still alive, but my mother has since died.

DR MAGWAZA: Just tell us about your family.  How many are you?  Do you have any brothers?

WITNESS:   We are eight.  There are three boys.

DR MAGWAZA: What are their names?

WITNESS:   It's Thamsanqa, Prince Mthetwa, as well as myself, and I am Ernest.

DR MAGWAZA: I am asking your brothers' names because they seem to have been involved in this matter.  Did you belong to any political organisation, or were you affiliated to any?  /---   Yes,

DR MAGWAZA: ---   Yes, we were members of the UDF, as it's the ANC

DR MAGWAZA: now, because then the ANC was banned.

DR MAGWAZA: The three of you were members of the UDF.

WITNESS:   Yes, we were affiliated to the UDF.

DR MAGWAZA: Tell us briefly about your brother, Thami.  How old was he when he died, and what was he doing at that time, or what activities was he involved in?

WITNESS:   Thami was born in 1960, and at the time when this happened I don't remember quite well as to how old he was, but he was a member of the church choir, he was a chorister, and his choir used to tour many places, and he was also involved in certain organisations.

DR MAGWAZA: Did he have a family?

WITNESS:   No, he was still very young so he did not have a family at that time.  He belonged to certain organisations, as well as being a parishioner, and he was still very young.

DR MAGWAZA: Now you can go on further, relating to us as to what happened to him.

WITNESS:   When I picked up the telephone on that particular day I realised that our line was off, and I asked my sister as to what was happening.  And she told me that I shouldn't pay much attention to it, probably the line would be working later on.  Then we went to sleep.  In the middle of the night we saw torches and we heard loud knocks at the door.  A white man came in wearing a khaki coat, and he asked as to where Thami was, and we told him that he's asleep.  He went into the house and sat on the bed, and we woke each other up.  But Thami was the last to be seen, and he directed Thami to dress up.  And he went to a certain suitcase that had Thami's clothes, and there were certain photos that they used to take when they were on their tours with the choir, and they asked him as to how he got a certain photo, and Thami said he got this photo at the seaside.  They took him with, and they wanted to take the radio as well as cassettes that were there.  And they wanted to know what was happening in those organisations, so they took the cassettes as well as the record player.  They put these in a pillowcase.  They handcuffed him and they took him with to the car.  Thami got into the car that was behind the other one.  We went to C R Swart and we sat there up until the following morning.  And on the following morning they brought an exercise book.  They wanted to test our handwritings, and they asked us certain questions.  At that time there was a certain white person who was wearing a white safari suit - I don't know what his name was - and he would fire us with questions with regard to certain organisations.  And if you do not answer satisfactorily, or in the manner that he wanted you to answer, he would hit and assault us with an open hand on the face.  And apparently Thami did not want to disclose any information, and he was told that he was going to explain certain things.  There was a certain photo.  In this photo they used to take - especially the  youths who used to skip the country used to have Thami's photos, and they would always show this photo in order to gain entry or to leave the borders of South Africa, and certain youths were caught with this photo of Thami, and this is what caused all the problems.  After they had interrogated us they brought us food, but Thami didn't want to eat at that time.  And they said to me they had discovered that I was innocent, and I was supposed to go back home.  And I was not satisfied.  I wanted to ask them to let me see my brother so that I could bid him goodbye, and they asked me as to why I was saying that.  I told them that I had no hope of seeing my brother in future, because they had killed a certain Mr Mdluli and they would probably do the same to my brother.  They told me that they would not do anything to my brother.  They forced me to go home.  Then on the following day I heard that my brother was dead.  They said he had hanged himself.  When we went to see him he had a scratch or a laceration on the neck, and they said, "This is the laceration that resulted from him hanging himself."  Then I went to Gale Street.  When I got to Gale Street with the death certificate they put me in an empty office and they kept on talking to each other.  And I went to the reception to inquire as to why I wasn't being attended to.  They told me that I had to go to C R Swart to submit this death certificate.  I went there, and I never got any information as to how Thami died and I never got the death certificate.

DR MAGWAZA: This is a very painful story.  It's quite pathetic, but there's a few questions that I would like to ask you.  I want you to clarify certain issues.  When they came to your place had they come to look for Thami particularly, or just they had come to look for all of you?

WITNESS:   Apparently, according to my own opinion, I think they had all the information and they were searching particularly for Thami.

DR MAGWAZA: Did you also know that Thami was active in politics and he was helping youths to skip the country?

WITNESS:   No, we knew nothing about that.  All that we knew about is that he was a parishioner.

DR MAGWAZA: What about the photo that you said they got from the youths?

WITNESS:   It was an ID photo, Thami's ID photo, that they had.

DR MAGWAZA: You mentioned a certain Msimango.  You said he was a member of the SB.  How connected were they with Thami?

WITNESS:   They were neighbours, and they used to go to the seaside, and he would take the youths to the seaside, only to find that his photo - the photo was taken by Thami up until such time that it was discovered.

DR MAGWAZA: Did you know that Msimango was a member of the SB?

WITNESS:   Yes, we knew, and Thami knew as well.  Thami knew that Msimango was an SB.

DR MAGWAZA: Where did the money come from, the money to go to Mozambique?

WITNESS:   I don't know much about the money, but I got it from a money box, and I always wanted to exchange the coins, because at that time I wasn't mature enough.  I think Thami knew what the money was for.

DR MAGWAZA: Let's just retrace your steps.  You said when you got to C R Swart they said they wanted to examine your handwritings.  Why did they want to examine your handwritings?

WITNESS:   There were certain letters that were discovered when they arrested the youths, and they wanted to test as to who had written those letters.  Probably they suspected that one of us had written the letters, and probably they wanted to test our intelligence.

DR MAGWAZA: The letter that you said you got when you went to the mortuary, what document was that?  What document are you referring to?  You said when you showed this document they made you sit in a certain office all by yourself.