Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-29

CHAIRPERSON: No, you've already told us that you were aware of the contents of these paragraphs before you signed.  I've asked you then as a result why you signed an incorrect document.  I'm going to give it one more chance.  Are you able to tell us why you signed a document that contained, as far as you're concerned, incorrect allegations?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I will repeat what I've already stated, that I did not have time to read through it.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed, do you want to carry on?

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mthwana, you said when Mr Mbatha came to prison, you pointed out these corrections to him.  Can you take us to the relevant corrections that were made?

PAULUS MTHWANA: On the 3rd of February 1993 we held a meeting discussing on how best to protect the community of Chesterville.

MS MOHAMED: I asked you particularly about Mr Mbatha coming to prison.  You said earlier to the Chairman that when he came to prison you pointed out these "incorrections" to him.

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's correct.

MS MOHAMED: So where is it in this bundle of documents?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I rectified the issue of the vehicle on page 6, paragraph 2.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Mthwana, isn't it correct that you were convicted of this offence and sentenced to 10 years imprisonment?

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's correct.

MS MOHAMED: Isn't it also correct that you have served your term of imprisonment and you have been released from prison in March this year?

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's correct.

MS MOHAMED: In the early 1980's, were you a member of any political party?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was a member of the UDF.

MS MOHAMED: What was your role within the UDF?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was a martial.

MS MOHAMED: Okay.  Now I take you to this day of the incident, the 6th of February 1993.  Were you in the vicinity of Pinetown on that day?

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's correct.

MS MOHAMED: Why were you there?

PAULUS MTHWANA: We were looking for a vehicle that would assist us in collecting weapons from eMbali in Pietermartizburg.

MS MOHAMED: Who was with you at the time?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Stanley Nhlanhla Gumede.

MS MOHAMED: Okay and then what happened at about 6 p.m. that evening?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I pointed a firearm at a white person who was sitting at the back seat of a vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, did you commit this offence under the auspices of the United Democratic Front?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It happened for the reasons that we needed to collect firearms to protect our community.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you do this under the auspices of the United Democratic Front?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Please answer the question.

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, we did it for that reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Under the auspices of the UDF?  Under the flag of the UDF?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was under an order of a member of the Execution.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the UDF, or who?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was an Executive member of the ANC from Chesterville.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you join the ANC?

PAULUS MTHWANA: In 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Mthwana, who from the ANC structures gave you this order?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was Saga Gumede.

MS MOHAMED: When did he give you this instruction?

PAULUS MTHWANA: We were together at a meeting where the issue of collecting these firearms was discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: Do me a favour will you then look at page 6 paragraph 1.  There you say there were no real orders given my Mr Ncumalo, but "it is something that we discussed and agreed upon".  How do you explain that if you now say in your latest statement that whatever you did was as a result of an order given to you and Stanley Gumede by Mr Saga Gumede?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I did explain that everything that took place happened as a result of an instruction given by Saga Gumede.  What is referred to here is what happened at - what was discussed at a meeting.

MR LAX: Nowhere in page 6 or 7 do you even mention Saga Gumede.  That was supposed to be your affidavit that you were correcting your application.  You don't mention his name at all.  If he's the man who gave you the order, why didn't you say he gave you the order there and then while you were correcting your application.

CHAIRPERSON: Well has Saga got another name?

MR LAX: You see, you went so far as to correct Sipo Ncumalo and say in fact there was no Sipo, it's in fact Sifiso.  Now that's the person who you said gave you the order and that's the person whose name you were trying to correct, but you don't correct it properly and say well in fact it was Saga Gumede who gave us the order.  Do you see our difficulty?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, I understand.

MR LAX: Can you explain this please?

PAULUS MTHWANA: With regards to Sifiso Ncumalo, he was present at the meeting but he is not the one who issued the instruction.  It was Saga Gumede who did so.

CHAIRPERSON: No, let's get one thing straight.  Was there an instruction to commit this offence, or not?

PAULUS MTHWANA: An instruction was issued by Saga Gumede.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on page 6 of the bundle, it is what I can term your corrective affidavit.  Paragraph 1, you clearly say that there were no real orders given by Mr Ncumalo, but it is something we discussed and agreed upon. Now can you explain that problem, or can you deal with it as best you can?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Perhaps Mr Mbatha did not understand me correctly, because Mr Ncumalo was present at the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you sign this affidavit?  I see it's not signed in my ...(intervention)

MS MOHAMED: Sorry Mr Chairman, I think the hand-written one is signed.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  Correct.  Now when you signed this one, is it correct you were not stifled by time constraints, as you say you were when you filled in the original application form?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, it is clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  What standard did you pass in school?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Standard 9.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you learn to read and write English at school?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you able to read this document, this corrective document before you signed it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you in fact read it before you signed it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: No, I did not read it.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

PAULUS MTHWANA: There was no reason for me to read it.

CHAIRPERSON: You were going to sign it and being a corrective affidavit, I would have thought that you would have read it before you signed it, but be that as it may, you say you did not read it, you nonetheless signed it, correct?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you satisfied that you corrected the issues that you were unhappy with in your original application?

PAULUS MTHWANA: As far as I knew, they had been corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  Now when you made the statement that was handed up here before you signed it, it seems to be your latest statement, were you aware of the contents of the affidavit that appears on page 6 and thereafter in the bundle?

PAULUS MTHWANA: We were discussing it with Mr Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  Now when you made this last statement ...(intervention)

PAULUS MTHWANA: Chairperson, he was writing what I had been telling him, so I may not be in a position to dispute whatever he wrote.  He may have made mistakes.  For example, I encountered a problem with that question as regards to orders, because there was an order that was issued, so I do not know how best to explain it.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an order or wasn't there an order?

PAULUS MTHWANA: As I've already mentioned, there was an order issued.  I would like to explain that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you made your last statement to your attorney, were you aware of the contents of the affidavit you made to correct your application?

PAULUS MTHWANA: No, my attorney asked me to read it.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you read it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 1 you read.

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.