Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes I understand that, I think what I wanted to understand is that it is merely the conclusion that because there is this group that is charging towards me and there is gunfire, this gunfire must of course be coming from this group.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: That is correct.

JUDGE NGCOBO: In view of what the ballistic evidence appears to suggest, your impression may well be erroneous?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes if I take my impressions then and link it to the ballistics, I do concede that my impressions then were wrong.

JUDGE NGCOBO: The other aspect is the evidence relating to the marchers charging towards you and you fire.  Now when you fired, that aspect of your evidence is it based on you impression or conclusions or is it based on what you actually saw happening in front of you?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: It's based on what I actually saw happening in front of me.  I saw, and the pictures still in my head Honourable Chair, that these people were coming towards me.  I honestly cannot remember seeing people stationary or people turn or people going any other direction except mine.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When you fired, the people were charging towards you?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: At that stage yes.

JUDGE NGCOBO: At that point when you retreated?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes, I retreated.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When you retreated, what was the crowd doing.  Were they still charging towards you?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair that is my recollection and that is why I believe that it was not only one shot that was fired, it's more than one.  I'm trying to say that it's the second, the third and the fourth that I fired in my retreat, it was fired because people were charging.

JUDGE NGCOBO: And you're talking about the people who were right in front of you that you were observing?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: You're referring to the marchers Chair?

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes thank you Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Beea was it a standard procedure for your security personnel to wear bullet proof vests to your knowledge?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: It's the circumstances that would dictate, for instance if I may try to explain that.  If I would be drawn into a VIP unit of a particular principle that would go into an area referred to as a no-go zone, we would be issued with bullet proof vests, but on a normal day to day workings, no it was not standard.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On that particular morning, who gave you the vest to wear?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: It's difficult to say this person because I think what happened, if my memory serves me well, is that we all went into a place where these bullet proof vests were and we individually took and put them on so I'm not sure if somebody handed them over, we got into the room and - that's, I can't recall.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you were given the bullet proof vest, were you the only person that was around at the time when this was handed over to you or were you in the company of other people?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair I'm trying to, as best as I can, remember because the confusion outside Shell House spilled into the confusion inside Shell House amongst us.  We - there was this rush up and down and this person goes this so it's very difficult, the possibility is that we might have gone into this room as a group or the other way around so I - but the possibility exists that we might have gone there, rushed into this grabbed whatever you grabbed and out.  So it was very confused inside Shell House itself and outside.  Nobody can honestly claim that on that day they sat in their offices behind a desk and continued with their normal duties.  Even people who were not part of security in different departments in the ANC, the DIA, the DIP you found them at floors where they would never had been that day so there was that confusion even with - people were scared and lots of question were being asked, we bumped into people in the corridors, it was very confusing?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who gave you the pistol that you used that morning?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Mr Kruser did.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did he not give you the bullet-proof vest at the time when you were given the pistol?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair I don't remember, no I don't remember that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now when you were given the pistol, do you recall who was with you?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: As I say people from other departments were found at floors where they would normally not be.  We - if I remember correctly, there were people from other departments came up to the 7th floor and wanted to volunteer their services but if people would correct me, I think they were denied, people said no we cannot give you this because
(1) we don't know if you have any military background and
	 (2) we don't know if you can use a gun, on those basis so there was that confusion.  
So there were people in and out and at some point they were trying to push them out, no it's not a free for all kind of situation, we need people that we know can use pistols and are trained.  This is my recollection, I might be wrong.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No I am satisfied with your recollection Mr Beea, if you cannot remember anything I think it's only fair for you to say so.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  You may stand down.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Thank you Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BERGER: Mr Chair may I just indicate at the commencement of the Committee's questioning, the Honourable Chair questioned the witness as to the reason why he was shooting.  May I just for purposes of the Committee's background also refer to two portions in the record that might be relevant in this regard ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Which shows the impression the witness had at the time and which reflects his reason for having fired shots.  The first being at page 6917 at lines 29 and 30 where the question is being posed to the applicant:  "Alright why did you decide to fire?", "Because I had been fired at" and it creates the same impression the Honourable Chair has asked.  The same goes for page 6946 from lines 25 to 30 where the question is asked

MR BERGER: "And I gather from your evidence you never saw anybody firing any shots in your direction?

WITNESS: That is correct, I did not see anybody pointing a pistol.

MR BERGER: 	Why did you decide to fire some shots?

WITNESS:  Because I was fired at.

MR BERGER: 	Because?

WITNESS:  Because I was fired at".

MR BERGER: I just wanted to draw the Committees attention to those portions in the record.

CHAIRPERSON: If we sat for another half an hour or an hour I can't imagine that we'd be able to deal and complete with the evidence of an applicant unless you have such an applicant?

MR TIPP: No Chairperson I'm sure they're all going to take equally long.

CHAIRPERSON: In the circumstances it does seem that we ought to adjourn now and we will resume on Monday morning.  Last Monday morning we started late simply because the logistics people take a little time in getting things together.  I would like to know whether we can make a beginning at 09:30 on Monday morning.  Can we?  I thank you very much ladies and gentleman.  I will adjourn now and resume at 09:30 on Monday morning.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS