Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: The vehicle was not burnt.  The comrades who were operating under my command were not trustworthy, they vehicle was subsequently recovered from them and this led to my arrest.  That is why they did not apply for amnesty, because I told them that for example I indicated to them that we all went to look for a car and after the car was used for that purpose I indicated to them that they should burn the vehicle and should it happen that it transpires later on that they did not burn the car I will not take that responsibility because you defied my orders.

MR SIBANYONI: When you approached this vehicle or these people sitting in this vehicle, did you expect them not to offer any resistance from you taking the vehicle from them?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: As far as I am concerned, as a peace-loving person, I did not expect any shoot-out between the two of us.

MR SIBANYONI: If they didn't resist, if they surrendered and let you have the vehicle, what would you do after using the vehicle, what would you do with the vehicle after using it?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I did explain earlier on and I'm going to explain today or now that it was not important whether a person was hurt in the process or not, what's important is that the car had to be burnt after it has fulfilled its use.

MR SIBANYONI: Last question, if the gentleman in the car didn't offer resistance would you have still shot at him?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: As I have explained that I'm a peace-loving person I would not have shot him if he were not fighting.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.  Advocate Gcabashe?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.
	I have a couple of questions.  Let's start with Soweto.  You lived in Zola?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Essentially the SDU that you were part of operated in Meadowlands at Mzimhlope?  This is what you have testified, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, that's how I testified but the unit that I led operated near hostels in three places, Meadowlands, Motelsani near Merafi Hostel and Jabulani near a hostel.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did this SDU unit report to any particular local ANC structure, because in 1993 there were branches all over the place?  How did you operate in relation to the ANC?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I have already explained but because I'm patient I will explain again.  I was commander of the unit and there was another person above myself and that is the person who liaised with the ANC.  He is the one that I reported to and he would report further.

ADV GCABASHE: I heard that explanation but the question is a very different question.  You were a card-carrying member of the ANC, yes?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: You were also a member of a particular SDU, yes?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: That SDU was a structure of the ANC?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: The ANC had been unbanned in 1993, preparations were being made for the elections, there was a lot of trouble around, I don't dispute that.  What I am asking is, in relation to your mother organisation, the ANC, you as a card-carrying member of that ANC, which branch did you relate to?  Where did you get that card?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: From the Zola branch.

ADV GCABASHE: So you chairman, your secretary, everybody at the Zola branch knew that you were a member, that's not disputed.  Out at Meadowlands, how did you relate your ANC activities to your activities, your activist activities at Meadowlands?  How did you connect the two, your chairman and secretary who knew you and what you were doing for your organisation but in a totally different area that's a long way from Zola?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I am trying to explain here that at the time during which the struggle was still very strong, fighting the apartheid system, we used to use a slogan to the effect that an injury to one is an injury to all(?) and at the time there wasn't much of violence in Zola and therefore we decided to go and assist in other areas where the violence was rife.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did your branch, be it your chairman, your secretary, anybody at your branch, know about your activities out in Meadowlands or was it only Sinamela who knew about your activities in that  locality?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Let me explain that our chairman knew about the existence of the self-defence units but I would not agree or disagree that he knew or not about certain things because we fed information or reported to Sinamela.

ADV GCABASHE: Let's go to Spruitview   ...(intervention)

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: No, Spruitview, Natal Spruit or Thokoza.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, it was said to us it was Spruitview and I happened to know Spruitview which is why I was ...  Let's go to Thokoza and Gadafi and the fact that on the day you arrived he had these firearms.  My question is, knowing you had a car that was not quite roadworthy, that you were not too comfortable about in relation to transporting the firearms, what was the urgency in finding a better car there and then?  Can I follow it up with a related question?  Why couldn't you sit down and plan either as a group or with Gadafi, on how to transport these without repossessing somebody else's vehicle?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I earlier on explained that I met comrade Gadafi at a night vigil and he told me to come and see him on the day which the incident occurred.  We had not any idea at the time that he had already procured firearms.
	When we arrived there he told us that firearms were already available.  I had to go and try to get hold of a vehicle because our people were dying and we wanted to do everything as quick as possible so that people's lives could be saved.

ADV GCABASHE: So you in your judgement felt it was important to immediately transport those firearms back to Soweto, there was no room for thinking about how else to do it?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, that is correct.  People were dying and sometimes our heads would jam, we would not think properly.  We just wanted to come up with a solution to make it a point that our people are safe.

ADV GCABASHE: Now correct me if I'm wrong, in your testimony you say that you looked around for a vehicle and couldn't find one and then decided to go to Gosforth Park but you looked somewhere else first.  Tell me if I'm wrong, before you went - you didn't go directly to Gosforth, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.  I explained that on that very same day we did not find any vehicle that was suitable for the job, in town that is.

ADV GCABASHE: I want to know where you looked before you went to Gosforth Park.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Let me not tell a lie here, I'm not quite familiar with Germiston and I was not even familiar with Gosforth Park at the time, I just knew that that was a place for horse races and that's where we landed.  I only got to know that it is Gosforth Park after my arrest.

ADV GCABASHE: So you were really not expecting to find a car at Gosforth Park, you just happened to come across a car that looked suitable, by sheer chance?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Now the woman who was in that motor vehicle gave evidence in Court and page 35 of the Judgment - I want to come back to the handbag issue because I have understood that you were really the leader of the group of three and my understanding is correct, isn't it?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct, I was leading these three people but I don't want to bind myself to the evidence about the bag because I did not see one.

ADV GCABASHE: Who did all the talking as of the time that you to this motor vehicle?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Would you please explain, I don't understand as to who was talking and saying what.