Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

REV XUNDU: However you are feeling about this business we must listen to this as it is presented.  It's not necessary to act like people in the rally.  This is a legal Commission which was appointed by the President.  It's like going to Parliament and interrupt the procedures.  We have authority to take the people who misbehave, we have an authority to take you out of this hall please behave yourself, do not interrupt the procedures of the Commission.

MR POTGIETER: We won't be able to proceed unless we maintain order and discipline.  So if the testimony is interrupted I will not hesitate to stop the proceedings and not proceed until there is absolute agreement on discipline and order.  I don't want to do that.  Thank you very much.  Proceed Brigadier.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I am still of the view that the tragic incident could have been avoided if the march conditions had been followed.  I had nothing against peaceful marches, political rallies, and as mentioned I personally unbanned political organisations when I assumed power without being pressurised to do so.
 I mention further that after the Bisho Massacre I had the support and sympathy of Buthelezi, Mangope and Mpedi who incidentally were also leaders of Homelands which were not ANC sympathisers.  
 The ANC alliance in contrast showed no expression of sorrow for their action which had led to the death of many people, instead they remained determined to intensify their mass action and do the same in Bophuthatswana. I verily believe that the ANC alliance had, on that day, no intention of a peaceful march and that is why they lacked remorse thereafter.
 Negotiations -   Perhaps the one positive aspect that flowed from the happenings on that day was that the parties returned to the negotiating table.  To a certain extent marches of this nature did not take place thereafter.  What is interesting is that our present government has realised the possible peril associated with marches and past legislation holding the organisers of a march responsible for any incidents caused by such a march.  This begs the question that if the Bisho Massacre march happened today who would be culpable.
 The indemnity decree -  It is true that I passed an indemnity decree so as to indemnify my soldiers from criminal prosecution relating to the Bisho Massacre.  As far as I was concerned they were acting in a lawful capacity to protect Ciskei from being besieged.  They were not the only line of defence but in fact the final line of defence.  It is very easy to sit back and condemn their action on that day.  Although I concede that perhaps if one views the situation in retrospect they may have over-reacted.  I ask that we all judge them given the circumstances prior and at the time of the march.  I urge that people should not be armchair critics when considering the happenings of that day.
 Conclusion -  Mr Chairman, Commissioners, there has been many a day that I have wished that the incidents of the 7th of September 1992 could be removed from my history, but I know that they cannot.  I have frequently wondered what I would have done differently if the clock could be turned back, but given the circumstances I am at a loss to say.  
 I know that the question on everybody's lips is whether I am going to say that I am sorry for what happened on that day.  I feel that I am not personally to blame for what happened on that day.  I attempted, I believe, to the best of my ability to prevent what happened.  Nonetheless I do feel sorry and sympathise with the victims and the families who lost loved ones.  I am sorry that this happened at a time when I was head of Ciskei, and unfortunately remains inextricably linked with me.  
 In a sense I feel sorry for the ANC because I believe that it was the SACP's subtle revolutionary influence that caused this incident under the guise of the ANC.  
 As a Christian I find the loss of human life a sorrowful situation particularly when blatantly contemplated for political gain.  I sincerely hope that the people who accuse me and claim that I am responsible for that day now have a better insight.
 Finally I would ask anybody that believes in their heart that I am truly guilty to forgive me, and understand the situation for what it was.  There is one lesson that I have learnt and that is that hatred and bitterness will gnaw away at a person's very soul if they give it a chance.  I have forgiven those that persecuted me and my followers. If we are all to live together and build a new South Africa then we must make peace with ourselves, our feelings and those of others, I have done all of this and please I urge you to do the same and let us all build the new future together.
 Mr Chairman I thank you for this opportunity to make these submissions to the Commission.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much.  You've submitted quite a bulky set of papers to us containing a number of annexures and as is usual that was handed to us just prior to you taking the stand to give your testimony.  So it would obviously require a bit of time from the Commission to look at all of this and to study the documentation.  In any event this is a process, it's not a single event, with the result that the Commission obviously has the ability to revert to you and to deal with whatever there is that has arisen from your submission and your testimony that needs further clarification.  But for the moment, under those conditions I am quite sure that my colleagues on the panel would want to ask some questions at this stage in clarification of your testimony.  Reverend Xundu?

REV XUNDU: Thank you Chairperson.  Sir I wanted to get clarity on some of the fundamental issues.  Do you realise that the creation of the TBVC states and the tricameral Parliament was the root of the violence in this country?

UNKNOWN: Yes I know that.

REV XUNDU: Do you realise that if this is part of that, you yourself, you were taking part in that violence so that you can help the oppressors to oppress the people who did not have the right to vote?

UNKNOWN: Yes I realised that that was the perception, though that was not my aim.

REV XUNDU: That is the cause that just before you put the blame on others, is that you had your own view that instead of liberating people you were oppressing them.  But if you are just blaming the people and you don't even admit that the creation of the TBVC states and thereafter they were puppet ministers that was very painful to the people who could not vote at the time.  It was war.   I want to know that you are placing the people who would like to forgive in trouble because you do not admit, because it is part of the anger of the oppressors.

UNKNOWN: Yes I admitted, I said no matter what we can say we know that the creation of the TBVC states were the roots of the apartheid regime. I take this from the situation that you can be born under a very bad situation and you can even go there yourself.  We were already in a bad situation.  In my mind I wanted to say in this kind of situation, this bad situation we must struggle and go out of it because at the time we had already known that there were heroes who were fighting for the liberation.  All of us we were oppressed, but at the same time in that kind of situation we could also try and build on our resources and try not to kill each other just before reaching our freedom.  My situation I was against the fact that there should be people who are forcing other people to do something that they did not like to do while busy talking about liberation as the principle of democracy was about tolerance among views of different people.  As long as there is respect there would be cooperation.  At that time I was not a White and I did not create any laws that could oppress the Blacks.  Just after I took over I tried to create laws that could lead to liberation of a Black person in Ciskei.