Human Rights Violation Hearings — Middelburg — 1997-06-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much for that, Florence.  I see your other name is also, is Pam?  Pamela.

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Because I see on the funeral they speak about Eric survived by his wife, Pamela and children and I see that is the other name that you use.
 Florence, are you okay to answer some questions?  Or would you prefer to just take a little bit of a break?  Or can I continue?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: I don't have any other answers.  I'm just concerned about why, since Godphrey killed my husband, every time we had to appear in court, they said he was mentally sick.
 I know Godphrey;  he was one of my pupils at school.  He never had a mental problem.  But since he killed my husband, every time we had to go to court, they said he was mentally ill.  And that ... (intervention).

RUSSELL ALLY: And Godphrey was one of the people who came that night, who asked your husband to ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: No, he wasn't with.  When they ... (intervention).

RUSSELL ALLY: He wasn't with?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: When they went to test ride the car, for some reason, they stopped at the cafe, where Godphrey was there and according to the witness he asked Eric, or I don't know, something was happening there.
 So Eric had to take him home with the car and then Eric went with the witness who saw the actual killing.

RUSSELL ALLY: That's Stefaans Jurgen?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Stefaans Jurgen.

RUSSELL ALLY: Who is dead?  He died in a motor car accident?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: He died in a car accident, yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: And Godphrey Mkweno, who was actually charged for the murder, he was later himself shot?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: How as he shot actually?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: I don't know.  It happened in Witbank.
 After the murder, after my husband's death I moved back home to Middelburg.  I just heard that he was shot dead.

RUSSELL ALLY: And the three people who were - there were three people that night who came to ask your husband to work on the car?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: And of those three people, you say, that two have - who were those three people?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: The one is a friend, Victor Kirk.  He's one of our family friends.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes.

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: And the other one is, whom I thought, is the owner of the car, who died in the car accident.  I don't know whether it's Samuel or whether it's Solly.  I can't remember.

RUSSELL ALLY: But Victor is still ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Victor is still alive.

RUSSELL ALLY: And what did he say about this car and the owner of this car, because you said you saw this car subsequently being driven by a policeman?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: A policeman, yes.  And none of them ever came back to me.  I did send messages that they must please come and tell me and explain what had happened to my husband.

RUSSELL ALLY: And he was a friend of your husband, Victor, or a family ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: He was a friend.

RUSSELL ALLY: You know, one of the - something that you mentioned in your statement and;  I mean this is not to take away from the pain or anything about your husband's political activities, but you did say that he was trying, before he died, to bring gangs together?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: These were criminal gangs?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Is there any possibility that he may have made enemies of any one of these gangs by this attempt to try and bring these people together;  to try and talk peace?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: I don't know.  Not that I know of.

RUSSELL ALLY: He was never ever threatened ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: It was the same guy that actually killed him;  just a few days before he was killed, we passed him and he greeted us.

RUSSELL ALLY: Godphrey?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was he, was he involved in any of these gangs.  Do you know?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: He was one of the gangsters, yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: And his father was a policeman?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: His father is a policeman.

RUSSELL ALLY: So there's - just a little bit about these gangs.  Can you just tell us about these gangs, because one of the, one of the things that's becoming clearer and clearer to us, in many hearings in many different parts of the country, is the way in which gangs, which start out as criminal gangs, get caught up in the political conflicts.
 In Ermelo we saw that there was a gang which was called the Black Cats and later got involved in the political conflict taking place there between UDF or ANC and the Inkata Freedom Party.
 These gangs that your husband was trying to bring together to talk peace, were they linked in any way to any of the political struggles, battles that were taking place, siding with any political organisation or grouping?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: No, I don't think so.  What he did, that's why he was trying to encourage them to be more involved in working for the community.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes.

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Well, it didn't happen that day, because before he could do anything, he was locked up.

RUSSELL ALLY: And Godphrey - do you know the names of these gangs?  Can you remember what they were called?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: The one they called the Bad Boys.  The other one, I don't know.

RUSSELL ALLY: And Godphrey was a known member of one of these ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: One of them, yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: But he was also know to the family.  You said that you actually had taught him and that you obviously, your husband obviously knew him well enough for your husband to agree to actually drive him to his house?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes, he knew him very well.

RUSSELL ALLY: And then in front of Godphrey's house, this is ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: It happened in front of, yes, his father's houses.

RUSSELL ALLY: In front of his father's house?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did the police, did they go any further beyond, because Godphrey was charged for this murder?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did they go with any other investigations or was it just Godphrey who was going to be tried for the murder of your husband?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: It sounded to me if it was just Godphrey.  I don't think they went any further.  They never came back to me.  I never heard anything.  Every time I just find out that the court is, there's going to be a hearing.  I would go.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes.

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Then they would say, no, the case wasn't ... (intervention).

RUSSELL ALLY: Wasn't going to be heard that day?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes, because Godphrey is mentally ill.  He would be in Weskoppies for two to three weeks and he'd be back home again.

RUSSELL ALLY: Is Weskoppies an institution for mentally for ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: It is a mental institution, yes.  And then he would, after a while when he is back home again, he's okay.  And every time again for the trial then, they say he's sick.

RUSSELL ALLY: And did you have a lawyer representing you?

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes, immediately after the killing, I went with Stefaans Jurgens to Nelspruit to Mr Mosjapelo, a lawyer.
 Godphrey gave a statement there.  Oh, not Godphrey, Stefaans Jurgens gave his statement there.  But nothing happened.

RUSSELL ALLY: And the lawyer didn't ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: No, he came once, but I was too emotional.  So he just went back again and I never saw him again.

RUSSELL ALLY: And the funeral, was it a - were you supported in the funeral?  Did the comrades come and was there ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes, they did.

RUSSELL ALLY: Because of his, Godphrey's activities, political activities and work within the community ... (intervention).

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Eric's.

RUSSELL ALLY: Eric's, I'm sorry.

FLORENCE B LIBERTY: Yes.  The ANC actually arranged the whole funeral.