Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall that I had to go and burn down a printing press.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see the strange thing about this printing press is that Mr van Zyl said, and I'm going to tell you later how you changed his version.  He said at the time
"I also gave Isgak an order to execute the project.  Later he reported to me that the place had been burnt down and he was rewarded with R2 000."
Does that ring a bell?  Is that true?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember whether he said it to me or whether I did it, I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you don't know if Mr van Zyl is telling the truth or lies?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say whether he's lying or telling the truth.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He might be telling the truth?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And he might be lying?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't remember.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That's it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Even though you admit that it's the kind of thing that one would remember if you'd burnt down a printing press.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, if you burn down a place you would have remembered that you did so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  But you can't remember if you burnt it down.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I can't, because I didn't go and burn down a place.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh I see, okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get money for burning down a place?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember if I received money for the place that I burnt or what.

MR LAX: Well how many times did you get R2 000 in cash from Mr van Zyl?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot even tell you if I received R2 000 or R3 000.  I know that I received money to make telephone calls, I received money to go to Namibia, for my accommodation, spending money, my journey back to Cape Town, but I cannot remember how much money they gave me, I just know that there was R18 000 that I received, because I counted it and it was in a large brown envelope.  But I don't know about R2 000 because I didn't count it, or whatever the amount was.

MR LAX: If you had pulled a scam on him for R2 000, you would remember that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't understand.

MR LAX: If you had conned him out of R2 000, you would remember that, surely.  Do you understand?

CHAIRPERSON: If you defrauded him.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, for reason would I con him, for R2 000?

MR LAX: On his version you did con him, 'cause he paid you for something you didn't do.

ISGAK HARDIEN: It is possible, but not for burning down a printing press.  Who would burn down a building for R2 000?

MR LAX: But I thought you would do it for the love of your country?

ISGAK HARDIEN: But that's why I'm saying, how could I accept R2 000 for a place that I burnt down?  How could I con him for R2 000 for burning down a place?  It's not my style to con people.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, please calm down, please.  Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It seems also that Mr van Zyl was stupid enough to want to send you all the way to Namibia, to pay for you to stay there for several days, pay for your flight tickets, just so that you could go there to write down number plates.  That's your evidence.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, he sent me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you think anyone's going to believe you?  That they would spend all that money to send you to Namibia, who has difficulty reading and writing, to go and write down number plates in a city that he doesn't know?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I've already said that I knew people there, I met people, I made friends so that they could identify places to me, so I could see the streets and so forth.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And what were going to do after you'd found out these streets and you'd learnt your way around?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Then I gave him the information and I went back home.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Information about what?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Regarding the registrations of the vehicles and whether they arrived there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did this make sense to you at the time,  that they send you all the way to Namibia to write down the registration plates of motor cars.  You.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because he asked me whether I had gone on holiday out of the Cape and I said no, and he said well there you go.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now didn't you tell the TRC Investigators that you got paid R18 000 before the Early Learning Centre explosion and R18 000 after the Early Learning Centre explosion?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I have never said anything about receiving R18 000 twice.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well let me show you that you told them that.

MS COLERIDGE: Page 177 and 178.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, I will read to you what you said.  Once again Mr Zenzile asked you a question, Mr Zenzile asked you
"When did you receive your money, because you received R18 000 for the job, but according to the record shortly afterwards you received money again?"
and your response:
"Yes, it was the next day.  Then I flew up to Johannesburg"
and then he asks you:
"Did you discuss it again?"
		"No, I received my money and I returned"
then he says:
"How much did he give you?"
and your response:
"Again R18 000"
and then the question is:
"So in total for the ELC, you received R36 000?"
Now what do you say of that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Once again, I told these people anything so that I could get rid of them.  In all my statements.  I never received R36 000, I only received R18 000 once.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz, you know when I'm reading this now, it looks like maybe Mr Zenzile made mistake, it's ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I think you've got to start reading the...

CHAIRPERSON: ... that you've read out, it seems that he got paid, he went to Jo'burg and got paid, or does it come to light further down?  Because it says ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Sorry Judge, you've got to start reading in fact at page 173, to get the context.  At page 173 he says, at the top, he went to Namibia, approximately two weeks after he came back ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Then he got money in the Cape Sun, R18 000, and then another R18 000 in Johannesburg.

MR KAHANOVITZ: ...(indistinct - no microphone) Centre, and then he says he got another R18 000 afterwards.  So that put it...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you've got to read it with page 173, I see that now, thank you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see Mr Hardien, once again, I could understand if you were telling us that you told lies to minimise your role, but what you're actually telling us is that you told lies to maximise your role and the function that you played for the CCB.  You were more important, you did bigger jobs, you did more jobs, you got more money than people thought before.  Isn't that strange information to give to the TRC?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I will tell you once again, I said all these things because I wanted to get rid of them.  I just said everything and they believed me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, what do you think happens when you admit to crimes, does this make people go away?  Haven't you been questioned many times in your life by the police, ask you if you know anything about a crime?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They leave me alone.

ISGAK HARDIEN: If I'd done anything they would have questioned me, of course.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see you give statements to the newspaper claiming you're "die ysterhand van Kewtown".  Do you remember that interview you gave?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct, because they said I was a gang leader.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, and you tried to create the impression that you are indeed a gang leader.  That you're the "ysterhand van Kewtown".

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I'm not a gang leader.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do the police think you're a gang leader?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Never.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now did you and Peaches ever discuss the work that Peaches was doing for your mutual employer, Mr van Zyl?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say precisely, but I think it was after the bomb that we spoke.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What jobs have you done for Mr van Zyl in the last year?