Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS GCABASHE: Now at the time that you went either for your military training or for your general discussions about your organisation, did the opportunity arise where you could discuss some of the things you believed in and some of the things that you were sent out to do?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, we never had such discussions.

MS GCABASHE: As a member of that organisation, apart from going out on missions, what other contribution did you make to the discussion of, you know just to the way your organisation did things, you as a member?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Firstly, I was not political, I was simply a soldier.

MS GCABASHE: You say: "ovokala" and, is there anything else?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, nothing else.

MS GCABASHE: But then says to me that you were simply as a soldier there to complete a mission and come back, you operated to me, like a hit squad.  You didn't discuss anything, you simply did as you were told.  Just help me understand your function.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: My duty was to accept orders given, that's all as a soldier.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had no political objective yourself, you were carrying out your duty to obey orders, is that what you say?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: By accepting the orders my intention was to help liberate Africans from oppression.

ADV SANDI: Mr Ncamazana, what exactly did you hear over the radio about the PAC and the question of a suspension of the armed struggle?  Who was talking on the radio?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember anymore because when I listened and heard this report I was doing something at the time because I did not take special notice as I did not believe all what comes out of radios and newspapers.  What I believe are those things that come from the commander, not to listen from the radio, television or newspapers.

ADV SANDI: Do you recall the content of what was coming from the radio?  You do not remember who was talking but what exactly was being said about the PAC and this thing about suspending the armed struggle?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: They were talking about the PAC that was suspending the armed struggle.

ADV SANDI: What was your attitude to that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not believe it because it was on radio.

ADV SANDI: Did you become interested to find out as to what the exact position was?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was interested to know that but I never got to know as to actually what is happening until a point arrived when people voted.

ADV SANDI: Did you take any steps to try and verify this thing that was being said over the radio?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not do anything. ...[end of tape]

ADV SANDI: ...[inaudible] the exact position was?  Would that be a correct understanding of your attitude?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The reasons for me not to take special note is because I knew, I know that the enemy can do such a thing, disseminate over the radio and television something like that with the aims of fulfilling their aims, to fulfil their own aims.

ADV SANDI: If what was being said over the radio was true, that the PAC had at that stage suspended the armed struggle, would that not have been an opportunity for you to have to stop doing those things which we were being forced and compelled to do?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not see it that way because the commander had not at that time come to me to tell me of such a thing.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Ncamazana.  Sorry Mr Prior, about that.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the PAC have offices at that time?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, it had offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Then there was nothing to stop you going to the PAC office to find out from them what the true position was, was there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I don't agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?  Why couldn't you go to the PAC office and say: "Look what is the position about the armed struggle, I've heard this over the radio, is it true"?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because first, I did not have the right to go to those offices.  Secondly, I could not listen to what they told me.  If they had anything to tell us they must tell it to our commander.  I had to listen to what my commander tells me.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying you couldn't listen to what the PAC told you, the only person on the world you could listen to was your commander, Mr Jones, is that what you would have us accept?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I'm not saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that is what you'd just said,  You said you couldn't listen to them, you could only listen to your commander.  And why didn't you have the right to go to the PAC office?  You didn't have the right to kill people either did you, but it didn't stop you.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not have the right to kill other people but according to the situation at the time ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me why you didn't go to the PAC office, why you didn't have the right to do that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because I was not allowed to simply go anywhere.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Because I did not - we were busy and I did not control myself.  Mine was to accept what I was told and not to do what I wanted to do on my own.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only explanation you can give?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: If I could just follow up one little thing Chairperson.
	You see I have great problems with what you're saying here, it doesn't square with what your leaders have told us in other hearing in the Commission, that the PAC was a democratic organisation, that APLA was a democratic organisation, that the cadres and the comrades discussed political issues openly as part of their political education.  
	And we heard yesterday and the day before from another commander of another unit who spoke about how his members discussed issues, discussed their objectives and here you are indicating a totally totalitarian approach which is totally at odds with the policies of the PAC and totally at odds with the policies of APLA.  How do you explain this if you know about the PAC's policies?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The question is quite long and I cannot follow it.

MR LAX: I'll make it very simple for you.  Was the PAC and APLA not a democratic organisation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Is it not a cornerstone of such democracy within that structure that members have a right to discuss issues?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR LAX: In that context, how can you possibly say it wasn't your decision to discuss these things, there was no space for that to happen, you simply followed orders?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because I did not control myself, as I've said.

MR LAX: Well, you weren't in the PAC then if that is what you're saying, you were in some other organisation that operated very differently.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR LAX: Please explain to me then how the culture of your organisation that you were in could be so different from that which you have agreed the PAC and APLA was?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The culture and the procedure, what do you mean?

MR LAX: Please, let's not mess around here, you know exactly what I mean.  You have simply answered me already in that issue where I simplified the very long question for you.  You know very well what I'm talking about, please answer my question.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, if I might interject here.  If the applicant is being asked to comment on evidence that was led yesterday about what a commander said happens within APLA, discussions that take place in this democratic army as it's been put, then surely we should have the opportunity of seeing exactly what was said yesterday so that we can comment it on that basis.