Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: About less than two months, I would say a month and a few weeks.

MR DE KLERK: Okay, now you can proceed.  So you stopped this taxi because it was a taxi that you saw ...(intervention)

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: I followed the taxi.  I followed it until it went out of town and then it stopped at a certain place called Mandeza and because there were sugar cane fields around I accelerated and came to stop beside the taxi and the driver turned and when he saw my face the driver and the conductor fled from the taxi, they ran away, they left the taxi as it was.  I chased after the driver.  He went into the sugar cane fields.  I was trying to shoot at him at the time.

MR DE KLERK: Who was the driver, this person that you were now chasing?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: Mathambo Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat that again.

MR DE KLERK: Mathambo Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you chase him?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: He is the person who had been carrying the people who had attacked my home.

MR DE KLERK: Did you see him on the day when your home was attacked?  How did you know that he was involved?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: Yes, I saw him because the taxi stopped and those people alighted and then it went past, went further on, drove past.

MR DE KLERK: So you were chasing Mr Sithole ...

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: He fled into the sugar cane field and I chased him for about 10 kilometres.  I then returned to the vehicle and on seeing the taxi - the passengers had now alighted.  When I approached the taxi, when I was coming from chasing Mr Sithole, I saw the passengers standing on the road and the taxi drove off, somebody drove off with the taxi.

MR DE KLERK: Do you know who drove off with the taxi?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: It was Khumbulani Sithole.

MR DE KLERK: What happened then?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: I followed them into the township and I enquired from one of the boys who had been with me and he told me that Khumbulani had taken the taxi and they did not know where he had gone to.

MR DE KLERK: And then?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: He came back later that afternoon and he told me that they driven the taxi away and they had burnt it somewhere.

MR DE KLERK: Did you see where the taxi was burnt or where it was?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: I only saw it when the police took me to the spot where it was burnt.

MR DE KLERK: Did you give any instructions that the taxi must be burnt or that something must happen to the taxi?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: No, I actually reprimanded them for taking the taxi, we were only supposed to kill those people who had come to burn my house.  I did not approve of them taking the taxi.

MR DE KLERK: Can I just go back to where the taxi was stopped and you chased Mr Sithole.

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: Alright.

MR DE KLERK: While you were chasing Mr Sithole, were you doing anything to try and stop him from running away?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: My intention was not to stop him, I wanted to shoot and kill him because he fled into the sugar cane fields and I could not catch up with him, therefore I went back to that spot where I had left the vehicle.

MR DE KLERK: How many shots did you fire at him?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: I think I fired the gun three times.

MR DE KLERK: What firearm did you use?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: A G3 rifle.

MR DE KLERK: Where did you get this rifle?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: When the violence erupted in Richmond, I was taken for training at Matikulu.  We actually went to Ulundi first and thereafter we went to the Matikulu training camp.

MR DE KLERK: Is that where you got the firearm, or where did you get the firearm?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: Yes, I obtained the firearm from Matikulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave you the training in Matikulu?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: A Xhosa man.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say a Xhosa man?

INTERPRETER: That's what the applicant said.

MR LAX: You don't remember his name?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: No, I do not.

MR LAX: Who was in charge of that camp?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: I think it was the same Captain who trained us.  He - yes, I think he was the one who was in charge.

CHAIRPERSON: Captain of what was he?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: I am not able to explain, but he was our commander during our training.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a policeman, was he in the army?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: I think he was in the KwaZulu Police Force.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did the guns come from?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: We received them at our training camp.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you all issued with guns?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: Yes, the group that I was with, the group from Ndaleni, we all received firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: How big was the group?  How big was the group you came with?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: There were five of us.

MR DE KLERK: Just to clarify one aspect, Mr Mtolo, you said you chased Mr Sithole into the sugar cane fields, is that correct?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: How long did you chase him there, how long did it take?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: It was a bit of a distance.  I would not be able to estimate the distance inside this hall.

MR SIBANYONI: You earlier said it was for 10 kilometres, did you know ...(intervention)

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: Yes, I was just making an estimation.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you know how long is a kilometre?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: It not easy for me to estimate, I think from where I'm sitting to the corner up there, maybe a kilometre.

MR LAX: Do you know how big a ball ground is, a soccer ground?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: No, I do not.

MR LAX: Can you picture a soccer ground in your mind?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: That was about the distance that I chased him, from one end to the other.

MR LAX: That's 100 metres, plus-minus.

MR DE KLERK: So you could not stop him and you were not successful in striking him while you were shooting at him?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: Yes, I could also not shoot properly because these boys were also running in front of me.

MR DE KLERK: Can you explain to the Committee what your political objective was, your political motive, in this instance?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: When I was first drawn into politics it was because the Chief had been attacked and I was therefore wanting to protect the Chief, but prior to that I had not been affiliated, or I had not been involved in politics.

MR DE KLERK: Yes, but this specific attack where you chased Mr Sithole, what were you trying to ...(indistinct).

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: It was actually revenge because I had been attacked many times at my home.  The reason why I attacked is because I had seen him ferrying those attackers because they managed to burn my house after my gun had jammed and I had to flee.

MR DE KLERK: On that point, in what way did you suffer because of this conflict?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: I suffered greatly because I was not even prepared to come before this Committee, but I decided to come because of my family and because I wanted to obey the TRC.  My business, my home, those were all burnt.  When I am released from prison I do not even know where I'm going to stay because I do not have a home anymore.

MR DE KLERK: Was any of your family killed?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: Yes, three people were killed.

MR DE KLERK: Who were they?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: A certain boy by the name of Spapagu and a girl called Thembile and my father.  ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can I disturb you for a moment, and just confirm the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, just before you do - what did he say about his father?

INTERPRETER: He said his father died during faction fighting.

MR LAX: That's what I thought he said, I just didn't hear it translation.

INTERPRETER: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry just before, if I may - the faction fighting, was that political faction fighting or ...?

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: It was not political, it was only the other two people who had been, who had been killed during the political conflict.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I just wanted to clarify that.