Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If the pre-study was set out as such and if the instruction had been given as such then I would still have participated in the operation because that was the objective of our organisation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  What was the purpose other than to kill the people that were having the meeting there and belonging to the executive of the Kew Youth Movement, Kewtown?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Are you asking what the purpose of the explosion was?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, according to Van Zyl and according to you, since you have so much faith in his credibility and honesty and forthrightness.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir the answer has actually got three legs.  Firstly the maximum disruption of the structure as I have explained it before.  The second leg would be to send a very strong message to the interested parties that they are being monitored and that there are people who are aware of their activities.  The third leg would be that there is a possible connection that could be made to them in that it could possibly be one of their bombs that exploded.  And the fact that those involved will know that it is not will create a feeling of intimidation.

GEORGE BIZOS: This is what Mr van Zyl told you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir, this is what Mr van Zyl told me, yes that is correct.  This is the reason why we placed the bomb there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just by the way, was your faith in the honesty and forthrightness of Mr van Zyl not in any way shaken by his denying that he authorised your blood-brother Ferdi Barnard to kill Advocate Omar with a Makarov pistol with a silencer, who do you think is telling the truth, your blood-brother or Mr van Zyl?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir I am not willing to speculate on something like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think it is not reasonable to ask me or to expect it from me because I do not have the facts available.  I was not part of any discussion with regards to Advocate Omar.  So you are now trying to pull me in in a way in which I will not go.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's our function to decide who to believe on that one rather than the witness'.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes I merely by way of an expression Mr Chairman as to who (the speaker's microphone is not on) - I just want to round it off, you see if in fact Mr Ferdi Barnard is telling the truth, would you accept that Mr van Zyl is capable of telling outright untruths, if?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot give you an answer.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am sure not, I am sure not.
	Now I want to examine this answer of yours as to what the purpose was, what information was there according to Mr van Zyl or other information that you had these people that you wanted to frighten were guilty of?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sorry can I just interrupt you on that point, I would just like to once again explain to you what my role and responsibility was concerning this incident.  I was there in an observation position.  I accompanied Van Zyl as an expert in an area of which he knew nothing.  I did not make sure that I knew of all of the facts, I went exclusively on the grounds of an instruction that I received from the coordinator and the regional manager and what I observed in the handing over of this limpet mine.  I went there exclusively on that basis and I accompanied Mr van Zyl.  Once again you said I was not involved in the pre-study, I was not involved in the in-house and that is why I think it is unfair to ask me these type of questions because I cannot answer you with certainty even though I want to, and with respect I am saying this.  I pick up a feeling of animosity from you because I am not accepting it that way, but I cannot.  I can tell you how I saw the limpet mine, how I handed it over to Isgak Hardien, I can tell you what I observed there and that is my integrity that's on the table here, and it's my opinion about what happened there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry but Mr Botha all that Mr Bizos asked you is - you said that Van Zyl told you what the purpose of the operation was ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right Sir, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...and that included inter alia to send a message to the people etc.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Now all that Mr Bizos is asking is were you aware as to why it was necessary to send a message to those people, was that told to you?  After all you probably sat for, I don't know how long it took you to drive to Cape Town, but it's a long drive, you were together a long time, or wouldn't you have asked well you know why these people, why that or?  That's all that is being asked.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I concede Mr Chairperson.  Mention was made ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what they were allegedly guilty of or suspected of being guilty of.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That was mentioned to me, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please answer the question, what were you told these people were guilty of?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Amongst other things that there are suspicions that they placed two bombs, I think one at a post office and one at a police station.  If I can remember correctly secondly that they wanted to disrupt the elections in their way with certain actions that they wanted to launch that they planned during the meetings that took place at this hall in Athlone, and that it was not forbidden organisation but it was a situation that was created because of a certain pattern of thought.  And that would then be the disruption of the September elections.  In broader terms that is what he told me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he also tell you that they were suspected of having been - not only that they were responsible for the bombs at the post office and the magistrate's court, but also that they were in possession of explosives and arms and ammunition?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's the inference that I made, yes, if he did not tell it to me that would be a possibility, a most likely possibility.

GEORGE BIZOS: So although there were many definitions of terrorism this was a bunch of primary terrorists that were to gather there that evening?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will not say those are his exact words Mr Bizos, in broader terms yes, that's what he said they were busy with.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what was more serious an offence to commit at the time by a group of ten or twelve young people than be in possession of bombs and go and place them at places, probably been aware of other explosives and they were about to explode them.  By the way did Mr van Zyl also tell you that Mr Verster had said to him that if another bomb goes off in the Cape he, Verster, would hold Van Zyl personally responsible for that act of terror, did Mr van Zyl tell you that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He could have mentioned it, yes, I cannot recall it though.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he or did he not mention it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: It's not likely that he would have kept such vital information of such importance to his partner driving what is it, 17 or 1800 kilometres, staying in the same hotel that you would have omitted that dramatic detail?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Maybe it was a personal discussion between the two of them that his ego did not allow him to say that and I could have made the inference that his region is out of control.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos when it's convenient we will take the adjournment for the day but only when you get to the end of a point.

GEORGE BIZOS: The best way of making sure that the terrorist activities, I think you would have used the word terroristic activities, of these people was to kill them.  What is the good of warning them, kill them, and you've got the maximum disruption in the bag, so-to-speak.  There will be no more bombs at any rate from these people that were suspected of having let them off.  Why not kill them.  Wouldn't that have been in accordance with the policy and principles of the CCB?