Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: I can mention that every region, there was theEastern Transvaal, Western Transvaal, Northern Transvaal and farNorthern Transvaal had meetings with regard to each region, withregard to every region.

<UNKNOWN>: ...in those regions, is that correct?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: In each one of those regions there were onthat committee representatives of military intelligence, nationalintelligence, security branch, spes-magte is that what you'resaying?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know the names of the people that saton those regional committees representing those particular organisationsand if you don't have their names, do you have their capacities.  In other words was it the officer in command of security forcesat that particular time who would have sat?

ANSWER: It would not necessarily have been the commandingofficer, it could have been someone who had delegated powers fromthe commanding officer.
2b

<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR CURRIN 482 J H CRONJE

<UNKNOWN>: Are you able, in the context of full disclosure,to give this Committee more details about the names of peoplewho participated at a trevits level in the regions that you'vementioned?

ANSWER: I can attempt.   In the Western Transvaal itwould have been possibly Captain Kraus or Brigadier Loots.   Inthe Eastern Transvaal it could have been Captain Dietlis(?). In the far North I don't know, I can't think who it might havebeen.   I don't know about the Northern Cape.   Then in my ownregion it would have been a number of different persons, it couldhave been Captain Van Jaarsveld or Captain Loots, it could havebeen either of them.

<UNKNOWN>: One or the other?

ANSWER: That would have been the case.   Later CaptainVenter also had sitting on this body.

<UNKNOWN>: ...you don't have any other names?

ANSWER: No Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: During the course of these proceedings to considerand think carefully about it and if you do remember other nameswe would ask you to submit those names, come back and give evidenceand submit those names.   Would you be willing to do that?

ANSWER: I would do this happily, gladly.

<UNKNOWN>: We've got Western Transvaal, Northern Transvaal,far North, Northern Cape, Eastern Transvaal.

ANSWER: As I said initially it was founded in particularareas, next to the homeland areas or rather then border, SouthAfrican borders, it would have been the areas adjacent to foreigncountries.

<UNKNOWN>: ...Johannesburg, Southern Transvaal didn'thave a representative, it wasn't part of trevits?
2b ANSWER: /...
MR CURRIN 483 J H CRONJE

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: If we understand you correctly, you are sayingthat at some stage trevits began to identify targets within SouthAfrica, is that a fact that you are stating categorically?

ANSWER: It is a fact.

<UNKNOWN>: Once that happened did trevits not then establishother regional committees?

ANSWER: I would believe that what they would have donethen is that there would have been trevits regions where therewere more problems than elsewhere.

<UNKNOWN>: Can I assume that there was a trevits committeethen established for the Witwatersrand or particularly for theJohannesburg, greater Johannesburg region?

ANSWER: That is possible, although I do not have personalknowledge of that.

<UNKNOWN>: The trevits committee Northern Transvaal, wasthat in Pretoria?

ANSWER: It would have been at the head office.

<UNKNOWN>: Did they operate in the Johannesburg regionas well?

ANSWER: No Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, by the nature of the trevits operation,a secret organisation, where it seems that those who participatedappointed themselves to be accusers, prosecutors, judges and executioners,what steps were taken to ensure that the....(tape ends)...

ANSWER: The information made available to trevits, asI have already mentioned, was put together by General Louw andit would have been contained in the head office files so thatthey were able to control the information at the head
3. office /...
MR CURRIN 484 J H CRONJE
office.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you satisfied that all the necessary measureswere in place to ensure that the information that  a person onthe list was, according to your criteria, supposed to be on thatlist?

ANSWER: All of this information would have been containedin the files not only information gained through informants, butalso by means of personal investigations as well as the tappingof telephone wires as well as by gaining access to the mail ofthe persons involved.   The information I would believe was infact entirely believable and trustworthy.

<UNKNOWN>: ...at a trevits level in the Northern Transvaal?  How many priority  targets were identified for assassination?

ANSWER: One as far as I know and I would imagine thatwould have been Dr Ribiero.

<UNKNOWN>: One that you're referring to.

ANSWER: That would have been Piet Mtuli.

<UNKNOWN>: For how long were you participating on trevits?

ANSWER: Myself and my staff would have been involvedin it, the persons whom I delegated to do that, would only havebeen involved if we had a target whom we wanted to identify.

<UNKNOWN>: How many years you participated?

ANSWER: That would have been from 1985 or more probably1986 until the middle of 1987 at which stage I retired.

<UNKNOWN>: In a year there was only one target?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: ...the need to have a secret organisation liketrevits if in a year you can only find one target?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that really important?

MR CURRIN: : It may be important if you don't....
3.

CHAIRPERSON: /...
MR CURRIN 485 J H CRONJE

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a question just for the sake of beinga question or is there a purpose to the question?

MR CURRIN: : I believe there is a purpose in the question.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: I've asked the question, did you....

ANSWER: Trevits did not only consist of the NorthernTransvaal but also of other regions.

<UNKNOWN>: ...targets that were identified in other regions?

ANSWER: No Chair.

MR CURRIN: : Was that information not shared amongst thevarious regions?

ANSWER: No Chair, once it was discussed on the meetingif I wasn't at the meeting or my representatives weren't at themeeting then I wouldn't have known of it.

<UNKNOWN>: What was happening in other regions there wassort of regional autonomy is that what you're saying?

ANSWER: Each region had its own priorities.

<UNKNOWN>: ...co-ordinating committee to whom these variousregional committees reported?

ANSWER: I would believe that the minutes of trevits wasdiscussed at the State Security Council level.

<UNKNOWN>: So you're saying that each region reporteddirectly to the State Security Council?

ANSWER: No that is not what I'm saying, trevits itselfwould have done that.

<UNKNOWN>: I'm not clear I'm sorry on what you are saying,there are regional structures around the country, when they gotinformation about a target and about a planned assassination andthey were to report, who did they report to?
3. ANSWER: /...
MR CURRIN 486 J H CRONJE

ANSWER: They made their reports at the trevits meetings.

<UNKNOWN>: ...national meetings that would then take place?

ANSWER: The meetings, as I said, happened on a regionallevel, these meetings would have made reports to trevits at headoffice.

<UNKNOWN>: Trevits "hoofkantoor" and each regionreported to trevits "hoofkantoor" is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes when a region wanted to make such a presentation.

<UNKNOWN>: People that you mentioned earlier, ColonelLouw, Hoof-generaal Buchner, General Bob Beukes and BrigadierVictor, were those the people at head office?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: They in turn, as far as you know, reportedto the State Security Council?

ANSWER: Yes Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: So they would have been aware of any assassinationplanned in any part of the country where trevits operated?

ANSWER: That is correct.