Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Listen to me, let me explain to you.  You should  not associate things that are not connected.
	The salary and the work that I was doing, are not connected as you are putting it.  The Caprivians were getting salaries, I was not the only one who was getting a salary.
	M.Z. Khumalo himself was getting his monthly salary.  Yes, there were those payments, the salaries, and there were duties that I had to carry out as per Inkatha instructions, like being the Commissar going around killing people.  Do not separate these two, because you will get lost.

MR HEWIT: I don't think I am getting lost.  Let us find out what your duties were to earn your R2 200-00 a month when you returned from the Caprivi.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say the whole Natal, every area that had an IFP office, you would find Caprivians in those offices.  It was my duty to contact and communicate with them and find out what problems they were experiencing in those areas.
	I would connect them with the Kings or the Chiefs and the Chairmen of the IFP in the area, and I would also explain to them that these are the people you should use when you are in trouble.  And therefore I was not office bound as I am sitting here now.
	The office was in Ulundi, that is my office, but I used to travel around so that at the end of the month I would get my salary.

MR HEWIT: So to earn your R2 200-00 a month, although you weren't office bound, you were required to travel the length and breadth of KwaZulu Natal, just identifying problems, but not actually dealing with them, is that what you are saying?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I was trying to explain to you that that is working itself.  As I was going to these areas, I would not get there standing and look and just leave without doing anything.  I would spend perhaps a week or two weeks in that very same area.

MR HEWIT: What were your duties to earn your R2 200-00 a month?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I have already explained that that was my salary as a member of Inkatha working at the IFP offices in Ulundi.

MR HEWIT: Yes, so it was a salary for performing administrative organisational functions, is that what you are saying?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I have already explained that is so.

MR HEWIT: So it was not a salary that you received for killing people, perceived opponents?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would repeat, I have already indicated that I received this salary as an employee.  Let alone what you have just said, that was my duty.   Just put aside the office work.

MR HEWIT: Were you expected to kill people on your salary of R2 200-00 a month, that is what I want to know, it is a simple question?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Your question is confusing.  I have just explained that when you are working and getting paid at an office, one other thing that you do may not necessarily mean that you should get an extra salary because the training itself that we did, that we underwent at Caprivi was such that when we came back here, people were going to die.
	The reason that we did that was so that when we came back, people were going to die, and there was no where where it was indicated that we are going to give you an office salary - every time a person had died, you are going to get so much.

MR HEWIT: Is your answer to my question that you believed that in return for your salary of R2 200-00 a month, you were supposed to organise sufficiently the killing of opponents of the Inkatha Freedom party?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: All right.  Now, Mr Zazi Khuzwayo, he was perceived to be an opponent or a threat or an enemy of the Inkatha Freedom party, according to what we have heard from you, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: And he would fall into the category of those persons that you were required to eliminate or orchestrate the elimination of in return for your salary of R2 200-00 a month, it may have been more then, but I am just being kind to you by saying that it was R2 200-00, I don't know.  Isn't that right?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is not correct.

MR HEWIT: Was he not a person that you would be expected to kill or to eliminate, neutralise for your salary of R2 200-00 per month?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Maybe I am such a fool, I am not wise enough, because I have already answered your question several times that the money that came as a salary for being an employee, and things that I did outside, are not connected.
	Continue, let me not disturb you.

MR HEWIT: Had you finished your answer, without a long speech that is?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: You can continue.  I thought I made a mistake, you may continue.

MR HEWIT: Was the murder of Mr Zazi Khuzwayo outside the field or the sphere of your employment?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Was the murder of Mr Zazi Khuzwayo then within the sphere of your employment for which you received a salary of R2 200-00 a month?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So, in carrying out your duties of eliminating Mr Zazi Khuzwayo, you shouldn't have received more than your salary, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Why then, did you accept a private payment from a private individual, Mr Yamile, for this particular job?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I have already explained that he was excited.  I could not have stopped him from giving me the money and as he was giving me the money for being excited, I did not say no, I accepted it.  But that was not part of the agreed upon payment that after the death of Zazi I am going to give you so much.

MR HEWIT: Did you not say to Mr Yamile, Mr Yamile, I am only doing my duty?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I did not say that.

MR HEWIT: Did you not say to Mr Yamile, I am already paid more than the other Caprivi people for doing this work?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I did not say that.

MR HEWIT: Did you go to your superiors, superiors as you have told us, did you go for example to Mr M.Z. Khumalo and say that I am making money, extra money out of killing people for which I receive a salary from you or Military Intelligence or whoever?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I did not.

MR HEWIT: Did you, is there a particular reason why you didn't report back to Mr M.Z. Khumalo and tell him that you are making a bit on the side for these extra jobs?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I did not have time so that if a person gave me money, I had to rush and inform Mr M.Z. Khumalo that such a person gave me money.  There was no need for that.
	There were many people who gave me presents, I didn't rush to inform him, and because of that, I did not see any reason why I should rush to inform a person that Yamile gave me money.
	If he was indeed paying me, I would go to M.Z. Khumalo to inform him that now that we have killed Zazi, he had now paid us so much for his death.  Who told you that I want so much if I was supposed to kill Zazi, because I am the one who is supposed to come up with a decision of how much I wanted, who gave him that decision on how much I should be paid?  That is what I would have said.

MR HEWIT: Have you finished that answer?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Wasn't your evidence yesterday that it was in fact Mr M.Z. Khumalo who told you that you should eliminate Mr Zazi Khuzwayo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So he is the man who gave you the instruction to do so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: It seems to me that that was the kind of instruction then, which was within the course and scope of your, the sphere of your normal duties for which you were getting the salary of R2 200-00, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.