Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I saw her the time when I was stepping back, she was in the till that was in the right-hand side, I realised that there was a woman there, we then grabbed her, she came to open the till, and there were flowers in the window, so you couldn't see a person on that side, you would see a person when you were inside.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So you are saying to this Committee there is a possibility, you don't have the picture of the supermarket, you know you have it, that there's a possibility that it may be true that some people you did not see them during the shooting, were hiding, there were other people who were there, but you didn't see them at that particular point in time when you were shooting, is that possible?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, that is possible, because at the back there was a bakery, so you couldn't see the people at the back, you could only see the people who were in front.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR MALAN: May I just, Chair, pursue this question again in re-examination?  Why do you think Mr Bhani, when he was, and you heard his evidence, is that correct?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.

MR MALAN: He was, on more than one occasion, on several occasions in fact, asked about the people in the store, and he said he immediately said, ordered you to shoot, which you did, and he said, "They killed five, they injured three", and he said, "Those were the only people in the store", why do you think Mr Bhani did not make reference at all to this lady who after the shooting opened the till and then was individually and separately shot, why did he not mention that?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: He did say that the people who were there were the five people who were killed, and that is true, the three people were injured, and this lady is included in that five.

MR MALAN: I'm sorry, this lady was killed?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.

MR MALAN: But Mr Bhani said, I in any event understood his evidence and I'll check the record again, to be saying that these people were shot at, all eight of them, immediately at the first occasion when he ordered you to shoot, he did not refer to a lady opening the till, at a later stage shot, he didn't say anything about that.  Wasn't that important?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Please repeat your question?

MR MALAN: When we talk about understanding what happened at the store, the picture we have from Mr Bhani is that he went in, that you came in, that he ordered you to shoot, that there were eight people, white people, in the shop, that the eight were shot at, five died as a result, and three were injured but did not die, that's his story.  His story, as I understand it from your evidence is, you walked in, there were seven people, you shot, you killed four of them, three happened to be injured, then there was another lady, who wasn't shot at, she was taken to the till, she opened a number of tills in succession, you took the money, and then shot the lady.  Does that not sound like a different story, and I know I'm paraphrasing the picture, is it not a different story?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: That is not a different story.

MR MALAN: Do you think Mr Bhani told this Committee the same story you told us, does it sound the same?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: The people who died there were eight, they were five, and the three were injured, three were injured and five were killed.

MR MALAN: My question really relates to one single incident, which is an important difference, why do you think Mr Bhani did not tell us about a lady who wasn't shot immediately with the others, but was taken out alive from wherever, taken to the tills, forced to open the tills, take out the money and then shoot the lady, why did Mr Bhani not tell us the story like that, becuase this is how you told us the story?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Let me give you an example, when we entered the supermarket there were people on the side, on the left side, and on the right side there was this lady.  When Bhani gave an order to shoot, we shot the people in front of us.  When I went back, I saw this lady.  I then grabbed her to open the tills and after that she was shot.  All of them, the five of them were killed and three were injured, that's how it happened.  I saw this woman, that there is another person.   I then took her to open the tills.  After that, she was shot.

MR MALAN: But why didn't you shoot her immediately?  Weren't your instructions from Bhani to shoot everyone?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I wanted money.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it your deliberate intention not to shoot her so she could open the till?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: At the time we were shooting, we did not see her, because she was on the right-hand side, I saw her when I was stepping back, when I was looking at the door.  I then took her to open the till and she did and we took money and we shot at her.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if this will help at all.  You followed Bhani into the supermarket, is that correct?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see what he did when he first went in?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, I did.  He met a woman who was going outside.  He then pushed her inside.  I then went in and I took my position, and he then gave an order for us to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he push this woman?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Inside the supermarket.  The woman was going out... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: She was not the woman who opened the tills, or could she have been?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED