Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

MR DUKADA: Right, now you see the, on the 23rd September 1985 you slept at Barkly East in a hotel, together with Constable Booyse?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: Was Constable Booyse a member of the Transkeian Police Force?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, he was part of the Transkeian Police Force.

MR DUKADA: Did you enquire from him what was the mission about?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I asked and he said they were busy patrolling the Transkei.

MR DUKADA: Now the following morning, 24th September 1984, sorry '85, you drove from Barkly East, picked up Shosha, the informer and proceeded to Xala, is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: And on arrival at the police station you identified yourselves and wanted the whereabouts of the place of residence for the security officers, that is correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The security offices yes.

MR DUKADA: Now can you turn to Page 17 of the statement you made after the incident.  Paragraph 2.  I will not read the first sentence of Paragraph 2.  The second sentence reads,
"We were instructed to go and arrest Batandwa Ndondo in connection with terrorism ANC.  We were told by the members of Xala Security Branch that they have also received instructions from the Security Branch Umtata to arrest Batandwa Ndondo."
Can you see that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I do.

MR DUKADA: Were you aware that the Umtata Security Office had issued those instructions to the security men at Xala that Ndondo should be arrested?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I did not know.

MR DUKADA: So as an underground member of the unit you were not informed about this?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Now, do you still maintain this is what you stated in your statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: In this statement, as I have said, part of what is written thereon was written in order to cover up and some of the things I did not do out of my own free will.  I was told to do so on the advice to destroy the case.

MR DUKADA: Are you saying Mr Dandala that when you were told by the police at Xala, sorry let me re-phrase the question.  When you mentioned here that the police at Xala advised you that they had been informed by Umtata head office to arrest Ndondo, it was a cover up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I can say so.  That was not what I said.  It was not coming out of me.  It was part of the cover up story.

MR DUKADA: What was the purpose of the cover?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: What was the purpose?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: There was the story that the trace must be destroyed.

MR DUKADA: Yes but for you to mention this, to what extent would the case be destroyed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The  intention was to frustrate any progress in the case.

MR DUKADA: To what extent?  You had been given instructions to go and arrest Ndondo.  You were four in a mini bus.  Now when you arrived at the police station according to you, the policemen there told you that they had already received instructions from head office in Umtata to arrest Ndondo.  What I'm asking you, this fabrication, to what extent would it destroy the case?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The policemen that they got there was one.  He did not say this.  What he said to me, Ndondo had just past, driving a car.  He did not say they were ever instructed by Umtata to arrest him.  That's why this was to cover up because some of the things it was said this must be done this way in order to make sure that the case falters.

MR DUKADA: I'm asking you for the third time, to what extent would such fabrication destroy the case, or make a cover up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I would not know.

MR DUKADA: Tell me Mr Dandala, of all what you have stated in this Committee as well as previous affidavits, including the affidavit you deposed to to apply for amnesty in this matter, which matter is a cover up?  And which matters are not a cover up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: What I can say in my affidavit, the one I used to apply for amnesty, I said all that had happened on that day and in this statement I got a lot of advices that is why I say I was advised in order to prefer for the case, some of the things did not come directly from me.

MR DUKADA: Yes, but here at this Committee you are expected to disclose the full truth.  Why did you not mention in your affidavit supporting your application that certain issues previously mentioned in the other statements were intended to be a cover up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It may be an omission on my part but as far as the affidavit goes, what I said therein is all true and what has happened.

MR DUKADA: You see Mr Dandala, you've made five or six statements on different occasions and in none of those statements you mentioned that some of the things were a cover up, do you understand?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I do.

MR DUKADA: Now even in your latest affidavit you deposed to on the 4th June '98, to ask amnesty, you never mentioned that some of the things were intended to be a cover up, do you understand that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I do.

MR DUKADA: Now, listen to my question.  The next question is very important now.  Everybody here is interested to know.  You had a meeting with Lieutenant Booi in Umtata to go to Barkly in order to prepare the arrest of Batandwa.  You went to Barkly and you also went to Xala Police to notify your presence there.
	Why was there a need to take all these steps instead of simply phoning the security police at Xala, whilst you are in Umtata and tell them to arrest Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I would not know.  That must be asked from Colonel Booi.

MR DUKADA: Did you ask Colonel Booi?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I didn't ask.  I did not ask Colonel Booi about that.

MR DUKADA: Do you not find it curious that a Colonel, this is a simple thing, would deal with an ordinary student activist who is not a danger to anybody?  Let's phone the police at Xala to go and arrest Batandwa because they are the better people who knew him and knew where he resided?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He did not say we were supposed to go and arrest Batandwa.  He said I must go and assist South African Police.

MR DUKADA: Assist in what?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As they are coming to do their work in Transkei.

MR DUKADA: So is it evidence that throughout your dealings with the police, South African Police including the askaris, you didn't even know what the nature of the operations to be conducted in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I did not know.

MS SIGODI: Had you ever assisted the South African Police before?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, never before.

MR DUKADA: Thank you.  And even on the following morning when you were being addressed by Braam Moss, you never even asked what the nature of the operations were about?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: What he said when he was explaining to us, we must move to Xala, to go and arrest Batandwa Ndondo.  I did not ask anything.

MR DUKADA: To arrest Ndondo for what?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I did not ask anything because I assumed that they were going to arrest a terrorist.  I did not ask anything.

MR DUKADA: In other words are you saying that after the stage Ndondo was killed, you had not known at all what he had done, politically?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I did not know.

MR DUKADA: Are you really serious Mr Dandala?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I'm serious.  I cannot say I knew and yet I did not know.

MR DUKADA: Again, as a member of the underground unit, you did not even know what Batandwa had done?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I did not know anything about him and I did not know him.

MR DUKADA: And at what stage did you know about Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was only at the time when I was told we were going to arrest him at Xala that I got to hear his name.