Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-21

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: After the jerking, and the gunshot, we stopped the car and took cover.

MR NOTUNUNU: Mr Nyembezi, you have not as yet answered my question.  Listen to me and answer my question.  I am saying you, listen to my question, I am saying the cover you are talking about, we are in a situation, our picture now is you and Luyanda being in the cab of the vehicle, Luyanda driving, and we are in a position now, situation where the vehicle in question is apparently giving problems.  My question to you is simple, you also mention that you took cover.
	My question is simple, did you take this cover while still in the bakkie, that is in the cab, or did you alight from the vehicle in question, simple?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We stopped the car first, after the car had stopped, there was a gunshot.  Luyanda and I got out of the car and took cover.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Then what happened thereafter, there you are, you have gone out, you are taking cover, what happened?  You are now out of the vehicle with Luyanda, what happened?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: After we took cover, we saw the police that were supposed to be in the car, outside shooting.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now where was Luzuko and Solomzi, that is the two who had been in the bakkie of the panel van in question?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Unfortunately Luzuko is the person who got shot.  Solomzi ran away and took cover.

MR NOTUNUNU: My question to you Mr Nyembezi has been where was Luzuko and Solomzi at the time you came out of the vehicle and tried to take cover, answer the question please.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: They were inside sir, because we were the first ones to get out and take cover.

MR NOTUNUNU: Are you saying mr Nyembezi, at the time you came out of the vehicle, from the cab where you were seated with Luyanda, Luzuko and Solomzi were still inside the vehicle in question, in the bakkie?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir, that is what I am saying, because the sound was from behind us.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see, okay proceed.  Tell the Honourable Chair and Honourable members of the Panel and everybody here, what happened thereafter?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: After that sir, as I have already said, the police started shooting.
	They were shooting and they were trying to run away.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Whom were the police shooting, at whom were the firing of the police directed?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Towards us sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: What did you do, there are the policemen running, shooting at you.  What did you do?

INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the applicant.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We started to shoot back at them.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  You have mentioned something of it being dark.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes, I did say so sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, can you know Mr Nyembezi, how many, oh before I go to that Honourable Chair, sorry sir, with what were you in particular firing with?   Because we know you as a person who had been in fact armed with a knife at the time you went to this police station.  With what were you now shooting?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: The police gun sir, that were taken from the police.  I had a 9 mm.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Did your co-knife holder comrades, also take firearms like you had taken, 9 mm pistols?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir, both Luyanda and I had 9 mm's.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now, did you Mr Nyembezi and your comrades give chase to these two policemen because you have mentioned something of running away?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.  We were shooting, following them.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Can you perhaps be in a position to tell the distance you took, chasing them?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: It was about 55 metres sir, about 55 metres.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, did you - who actually gave chase of the four of you?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: It was myself, Solomzi and Luyanda sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Where was Luzuko?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Luzuko was inside the car, laying there.

MR NOTUNUNU: As you were chasing the two policemen, did you had the occasion of actually arriving at them, as you were chasing them, firing at them, did you have the occasion of actually arriving at them?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.   Now, what made you to stop firing?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We heard that there was silence from their side, sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Did you ever go to check whether these two policemen had been hit or otherwise?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir, we didn't go and ascertain that.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, you then came back to your motor vehicle.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: You have mentioned Luzuko having been injured, what had injured Luzuko and how was he injured?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: It was the gunshots sir, that had gotten in the hand.

MR NOTUNUNU: In the hand?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: The arm sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now what did you do thereafter, tell the Honourable Chair and members of the Panel.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We were shocked, we rushed him off, we did not use the same route.  We went to join the N2 towards Umtata.

MR NOTUNUNU: Then you go to Umtata and what happened after you had gone to Umtata?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We went to the St Mary's hospital.

MR NOTUNUNU: That is taking Luzuko to be attended, medically attended?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir, certainly.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Is that all Mr Nyembezi?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: That is not all sir.  I left Solomzi and Luyanda attending to Luzuko at the hospital.  I drove ...

MR NOTUNUNU: Proceed.  You may proceed.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I left Luzuko and Luyanda, the car that we were in, had bullet shots in it, marks.  Can I carry on sir?

MR NOTUNUNU: Where did you go to Mr Nyembezi, where did you go to sir?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I left in that car sir.  I tried to get a phone.

MR NOTUNUNU: Whom were you phoning Mr Nyembezi?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I was phoning Ntsiki, comrade Ntsiki.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.   Now, who is comrade Ntsiki?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: One of the Commanders that I had been introduced to by comrade Matshaya.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now, who had actually trained you was it Matshaya?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Matshaya trained us sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.   Now did you get hold of comrade Ntsiki and did he come?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I found comrade Ntsiki sir, he did come.

MR NOTUNUNU: What was the purpose of you contacting this comrade Ntsiki?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: The reason why I got in touch with Ntsiki, is because I wanted him to keep the guns that we had confiscated from the police.
	There was still a problem, we had to attend to comrade Luzuko.

MR NOTUNUNU: Did he then take the firearms in question, that is comrade Ntsiki?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: He did take them, sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Did he take them all?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No, not all of them sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, can you tell how many firearms he left with you and the types of those firearms?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Two guns, a shotgun and a rifle, R1 rifle.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, what about these two guns?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: These are guns that Ntsiki left with me.

ADV GCABASHE: And what did he take?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: He took the remainder.

ADV GCABASHE: Just describe those if you can?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Shotgun, R1's and 9 mm's.

ADV GCABASHE: Did the two policemen you were shooting at, get away with any guns?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes, Madam Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much, thank you.  Now, we are now at a stage where you say you handed over all the firearms to Ntsiki and you took with you two firearms, an R1 and a shotgun.
	What eventually happened to that R1 and the shotgun?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I gave them to Luyanda, Mr Ntikinca sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now, lastly Mr Nyembezi, I am about to finish Honourable Chair, we are here as I have already said to you before, and you are here with the families of the people who have in fact died.
	What can you say about the death of those two policemen and what can you also say to the families of the deceased herein?