Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR LAMEY: During that meeting the name of Niewoudt hitting the victims in the PEBCO 3 incident with an iron bar was not mentioned by Dirk Coetzee, it was - he named Venter.

JOE MAMASELA: Ja, I think that is what I said, I said - I thought it was just a mistake but like I say, I was distracted, I was talking.  It was not a formal meeting, I was talking with other people, he was talking with other people and whilst somebody was taking - Sally Sele was taking whatever, she was taking something, I think she was minuting the whole thing.  So it was not ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute.
	I think you should qualify your questions because the witness told you that there were three documents produced.  Now on the basis of only one document you have, you want to put it to the witness that: so only, I mean Niewoudt was not mentioned or the other way around, only Venter was mentioned.  
	We don't know what stands in the other remaining two documents, may Niewoudt was mentioned.  I think when you put it to the witness say: "As far as you can remember, as far as you can tell", qualify your question because otherwise it's based on the premise that he's not mentioned in the other two documents.  We don't have them, we don't know what stands in there.

ADV SANDI: Sorry for a moment Mr Lamey, is it not clear from this that Mr Dirk Coetzee was simply talking hearsay?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, yes it's probably so but we now know that Mr Mamasela was a direct witness and even if Mr Dirk Coetzee portrayed evidence which is hearsay and which was incorrect at that stage, one would expect a person who was a direct witness to that incident to correct a mis-statement of fact to that board of inquiry.

ADV SANDI: I thought Mr Mamasela says he did not understand himself to have any obligation to correct those misconceptions on the part of Dirk Coetzee.
	Isn't that what you're saying Mr Mamasela?

JOE MAMASELA: Absolutely so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I appreciate that you said you didn't care what he said, you actually said you didn't care what Coetzee said but perhaps what we should ask is: "From whom did Coetzee get that version"?

JOE MAMASELA: Mr Chairman with due respect, when Dirk Coetzee came into the country and I met him and we started talking he started asking me a lot of third force activities and whatever activities and I gave him my synopsis.
	And it is on the basis of some of the synopsis that he make out that presentation without informing me and without seeking my opinion.

CHAIRPERSON: No, let me ask you directly.  Did you tell, or are you the person who told Mr Coetzee that: "Mr Coetzee, the person who hit the three people with the iron pipe was Venter"?

JOE MAMASELA: No, that is not so, I did not tell him that.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he get that from?

JOE MAMASELA: I told him the story of the PEBCO 3, he might have confused the people there, that somebody, Niewoudt was beating them with - and instead of saying Niewoudt he said Venter.  He might have confused the issues.
	And when he invited me to come to this meeting he never told me that he was going to talk about the PEBCO 3.  I would have prepared myself, I would have come with my statement that I've made to the Attorney General.  He just said he's going to talk about Nklankla and I must help him out with Mklankla.
	And when we were there Dirk Coetzee talked a lot of things and the other documents will tell you the ridiculous statements that he made.  Even the allegations that George Fivaz was in the raid of Maseru, those were said by Dirk Coetzee.  I've got an affidavit of him, the same document in that same meeting. 
	So I'm not surprised that this thing emerges now all of a sudden, George Fivaz was in the Maseru raid.  It was Dirk Coetzee who said that.  He even implicated Doctor Jan D'Olivera of Maseru raid.  The man is mad.

MR LAMEY: It seems to me that you've got quite a good memory as to what Dirk Coetzee said at that IBI meeting Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: I've got documents, I've got three documents, you've got one and that's why I've got quite a good memory, more than you.

MR LAMEY: So you remember quite well what was said at that meeting?

JOE MAMASELA: I don't remember quite well what was said in the meeting, I remember quite well what was written in some of the documents.

MR LAMEY: Can I ask you this, did ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry Mr Lamey.
	Mr Mamasela, could you kindly assist us?  If you've got the three documents, would you permit the evidence leader to make copies of them so that we could have it to assist the Commission in it's work?

JOE MAMASELA: Mr Chairman, if I knew that they will be of vital importance to this Commission I would have brought them along.

ADV DE JAGER: So they are not here?

JOE MAMASELA: They are at home, at home, I've got them Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Now, do you recall that Coetzee said during that meeting that Venter hit the PEBCO 3 with an iron bar?

JOE MAMASELA: No, in that meeting I don't recall that.  I recall him talking about the PEBCO 3 incidents but, with Sally Sele and I was talking with a Pierre and then it's only subsequent to my looking at this document at a very later stage, that I found that: Oh, he said this in Durban.
	And then I even pointed out that it's lies, it was Dirk Coetzee's lies.  I even pointed that out in the Supreme Court of Durban.

MR LAMEY: And why did you go along with these lies of Coetzee, why did you confirm it?

JOE MAMASELA: Confirm what?

MR LAMEY: The lies which Coetzee told to the Independent Board of Inquiry.

JOE MAMASELA: Which lies?

MR LAMEY: Well, you've said that during that meeting Coetzee told certain lies and I asked you whether you confirmed it and you said: "yes", now I'm asking you why.

JOE MAMASELA: Specifically we are talking about Joe Nklankla because I was called for Joe Nklankla only, not other lies.  I'd not confirmed other lies.

MR LAMEY: Well, let us just then stick to Joe Nklankla ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: That will be nice for me.

MR LAMEY: Why did you confirm a lie about that matter?

JOE MAMASELA: I think that that matter has been exhausted and dealt with by my honourable learned friend Mr Booyens, we exhausted that.  I said the reason was that Dirk called me as a friend to help him out of a situation, of a predicament and that is the reason and I don't have reasons, I've got only that reason.

MR LAMEY: So you assisted Dirk Coetzee as a friend?

JOE MAMASELA: As a friend, yes I did.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, you are on record saying that: "At Vlakplaas, under the command of Dirk Coetzee and de Kock it was hell"
I think you described it as:
"The chambers of the devil"

JOE MAMASELA: That is true, life was hell for a black man, especially an Askari.  Our lives were worthless there.  We were beaten, we were killed.  It's history, it speak for itself.  More than 10 Askaris were killed there so how can I say it was heaven.

MR LAMEY: If you could just bear with me for a minute Mr Chairman.
	During the interview which was recorded with Jacques Paauw and of which we have a transcript here, you had described Mr Eugene de Kock as the: "prime evil", is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: That is not correct.

MR LAMEY: Is that not where the name of the programme: "Prime Evil" comes from?

JOE MAMASELA: I think you can rather ask Jacques Paauw where that name came from, he will tell you it is not the source of, Mamasela is not the source of that programme.

ADV SANDI: Can I ask Mr Lamey, where in this document does Mr Mamasela say Mr de Kock is: "prime evil"?