Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

ZAMA THUTHA: The person was writing saying that he was from my co-accused.  He sometimes just wrote ahead of me, he just wanted me to remind him here and there.  He did not even read it afterwards for me and explain to me so that I understand that he'd written it properly, he just - he came to the prison and said he was rushing and he left.
	It is the first time yesterday to come across these things that I have apparently said.  The time was not enough yesterday and today, to go through it.  This matter about me being told in Umtata that I was going to take a truck is not true, I was told when the truck was already in view at that place, that we were going to take the truck.

MR LAX: Yes, I hear you.  This person who came to the prison, who was he or she?

ZAMA THUTHA: They call him Mbanjwa.

MR LAX: Yes, he's a lawyer isn't he?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, he said he was a lawyer.  Nobody ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker wait for the interpretation please.

ZAMA THUTHA: Perhaps Mr Mbandazayo can explain if he knows him.

MR LAX: We've heard about him already Mr Thutha, he filled other people's application in as well that we've heard of during our sessions here.  Proceed Mr Prior, and let's just leave it at that.

MR PRIOR: Ja, I'm just trying to wind up.
	When Mr Meyers alighted as you say from the vehicle he was facing you, is that correct?  And you shot him from a very close range in the stomach or the abdomen.  My question is - sorry, let me just add another thing to that, when he was lying on the ground you could see he was unarmed, so could you not have threatened him with the firearm because your purpose was to take him with you?

ZAMA THUTHA: Threaten him after I'd shot ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: No, no, no, before you shot him.  You see you're telling the Committee that what was in your mind is that you thought he was going for a firearm but on your own evidence there was no firearm anywhere near him, so what I'm saying to you is that he was trying to get out or getting out of the vehicle, why did you not simply tell him: "put your hands up" or "if you move I'm going to shoot you", something like that?  In other words threaten him with a firearm because your objective was to take him with you, not to kill him, is that right?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not have much knowledge about him.  Another thing, I did not want him to see me with a gun because the people that were there to buy mild were not armed.  I was amongst people as well, I took cover amongst the people so that if he started to shoot he would not hit me but the other people.  I just thought that where he was standing and the direction he was looking he could see me particularly.

MR PRIOR: Did you shoot him out of fear that he might shoot you first?

ZAMA THUTHA: No, that was not the only reason.  First of all, I could not see my comrade after the sound, the bullet sound.  I did not know where he was and I realised that - I thought that perhaps he was being shot at. ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you.  Did you shoot him because of you believed, that maybe he had shot your colleague and he was now about to shoot you or injure you?  You shot him in those circumstances and believing that, that he may - he was posing or possibly posing a threat to you and that's why you shot him?

ZAMA THUTHA: There were two reasons why I shot him, that is one of the reasons.  I thought that I should be careful as well because he could shoot.  As he was moving, I did not know what action he was going to take with his arm in the truck.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have described in some detail what he was doing with his arm in the truck and it does not sound to me at all like someone who is picking up a gun.  You have said: "He was pulling something out, it was very heavy", can you remember telling us that?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I do remember that.

MR PRIOR: For all you knew he could have been trying to pull his daughter out because that was after the first shot.

MR PRIOR: Yes, alright, that's for argument.  I won't pursue that, it really calls for speculation.

CHAIRPERSON: But he came out of the truck, was standing facing you with no weapon in his hands, is that correct?

ZAMA THUTHA: When he was facing towards me I could only see one hand, the other one I could not see.  I can't say he didn't have anything in his hand then, in any of his hands.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were amongst a crowd of people, customers of his who were there buying milk, was that the position?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, that is the position.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were in no danger yourself at that time?  You could have run away with the other customers.

ZAMA THUTHA: The order that I was given did not allow me to run away with the people.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the order you were given was to capture this man and take him, which you ignored didn't you?

ZAMA THUTHA: That we must carefully at him to see if there is any danger, that was part of the order.  We could not wait ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't see any danger?

ZAMA THUTHA: What do you mean, I didn't see any danger because I'd heard a sound, a bullet sound.

CHAIRPERSON: And the evidence as I recollected of your co-accused was that after he got out of the truck he ran towards the back of the truck, so you would have seen him quite clearly away from the door?

ZAMA THUTHA: When he was trying to get away from the truck he, it is because of the bullet, he did not voluntarily just try to get away.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Finally, I think in fairness to this witness I must put what the witnesses Ndoda and Manjibani will say.
	There were the two employees who were serving the people milk from the back of the truck, that they were on the back of the vehicle - that is the truck where the milk canisters were, Mr Meyers was outside the vehicles towards the rear of the truck and he was telling the people to go to the passenger side and pay Donnie who was seated in the truck and who was collecting the money for the milk which they purchased.
	It was in that position that the first shot was fired, Mr Meyers ran around to the driver's side, that is away from the gunmen who shot on the passenger's side, and it was at that stage you shot him from the front.  In other words you were at that stage at the front of the vehicle.  
	So what I'm putting to you is, what you have told us here is not correct on their version and on the information that I have.  Is that not how it happened?

ZAMA THUTHA: No, that is not how it happened.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Only one point Mr Chairman.  Can you again tell the Committee whether when you took Donnie out of the truck, did you see any blood from her?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he told us repeatedly that he didn't take her out of the truck?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, what I'm trying to get at is that when assisted in taking her through the stiles, whether he did see any blood on her.

ZAMA THUTHA: Are you asking me a question?  Yes, I did see red but they put lipstick on, I didn't really take cognisance at that time as to what exactly what it was.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.
	Mr Chairman, just on a point - for clarity on the point which was raised regarding the paragraph 9 IV.  Mr Chairman, 
just for the record, I went through with the applicant and when he explained to me I didn't see any contradiction then, the way he explained to me.

CHAIRPERSON: That he told you a different version to what he told us?