Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

UNKNOWN: Mr Patel, I agree with you, but one has to view that in context to the initial instructions that came from Mr Luthuli, which was to try and make sure that they regained control of the area in Ermelo.  But I do agree that the applicant did testify that Mr Noah had initially drawn a list of the ANC leadership and he went on to, I think, state the names of the leadership who were in that list which was not a written list, but it was nevertheless provided to him orally.

MR PATEL: I thank you, My Lady.

MR WILLS: Sorry, if I can just comment on my learned friend's last example.  In paragraph fifty two (52) he refers to the meeting he had with Noah, and there it's clear again that at that meeting the target were, he says
"I would be used to kill UDF members and attack their areas."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what Judge Khampepe is putting now is that there was this initial instruction to go and kill ANC members and that Mr Noah, on arrival, had this list, but that wasn't to the exclusion of the additional instruction.  That's what I understand it to mean.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR PATEL: As it pleases the Committee.  I'll move on.  It's not all that material.  I'm looking for detail here with regard to it, there's one shop only, am I correct, on your evidence?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: You enter the shop?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I didn't enter the shop.

MR PATEL: Good.  You shoot from the outside into the shop, correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: This is just on the basis that this shop is frequented by ANC supporters.  Did you identify any particular person within the shop?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, maybe I should explain it in this way.  As you are sitting on the other side and you are the members of the ANC and I have instruction to shoot at you, I wouldn't say if I was given instruction to go and shoot the ANC, I should go and shoot you - I will go and shoot you because I know you as an ANC member, but I will shoot you as people belonging to the ANC and that's what happened.

MR PATEL: Let me just understand this correctly.  Your information given to you by Charles or China is that this shop is frequented by UDF supporters, correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, it is not correct.  Noah asked China to show me the area.  This is an ANC stronghold.  China is not the one who initiated the pointing out, it was Noah who instructed that I should be shown the area at Isikhumplazi.  And then the instruction was that I should go and shoot all the people in that place because all the people in that area or in that place were ANC members.

MR PATEL: I see.  What commodities were sold by this particular shop?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Food.

MR PATEL: So, inside this shop you could get very young children, you could get very old people, you could get people who are teenagers and you could get adult people, and a whole array of people, am I correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Maybe I can explain to you, sir.

MR PATEL: The question is very simple.  In terms of the type of people that you could expect to find in a food shop ranges from babies to people on pension, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, we are here with regards to cases involving the death of people.  If I were to answer yes or no, people will go out with false information.  So please give me a chance to explain with regards to the death of these people, because I'm here to please myself.  I killed a lot of people, but now if I want to speak you're going to stop me or prevent me from speaking.  I would like to ask the Committee to allow me to explain.  Please give me a chance to explain so that you can understand and I understand you.  Thanks.

MR PATEL: Go ahead, Mr Hlongwane.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, I will say we as the African people, our battle or our fight is different to the Western fight or whites or the Indians we were fighting.  If they say on the other of the bank or the other side there is war, we have to attack.  You don't go there and start selecting and say, "Take out the children out of the house".  What you do is you attack the whole place.  It doesn't matter whether there was an old lady in the shop or not.  The instruction was for me to go there and shoot, it wasn't said that I should take out the children or ladies or young children, I was told to go and shoot, then that's what I did.

UNKNOWN: Mr Hlongwane, if I must come in here.  Won't you just confine yourself to your own political organisation.  If you want to probably expatiate on whether there was a policy in your organisation with regard to the killing of children, you can do so.  Let's hear your evidence being confined and restricted to your own political organisation.  Did you have a policy with regard to the killing of children?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, there wasn't any policy and it was not a policy.  However, Chairperson, it might happen that when we attack, for example, we attack at night, it's possible that you might shoot and injure a child without knowing, because you don't know exactly who is inside the house.  For example, I would say the person sitting next to me is in the house only to find that he has moved out of the house and he has got out of the place and I'll shoot at the area and the wrong person might be injured.

UNKNOWN: Mr Patel, you may proceed.

MR PATEL: So, in other words, what you're saying, if I understand your answer correctly, it didn't matter who was in the shop.  So you don't have to tell me whether there could have been babies or pensioners, it doesn't matter?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, you understand me, that's correct.

MR PATEL: Do I also understand your evidence to be that there was no policy from your political party with regard to killing of innocent people?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I never said that.  I don't remember saying that.  I said ... (intervention)

MR PATEL: With children, with regard to children.  There was no policy with regard to the killing of children.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I don't understand your children.

MR PATEL: All right.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Please explain.

CHAIRPERSON: I think one will also have to get to, you know, the word "children" is rather wide, Mr Patel.  If one could be a bit more specific as well.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.  Do you accept, let's forget policies for a moment, do you accept that within this shop there could have been people who did not belong to the ANC?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I heard you.  I understand your question, sir, but I was told that anything in that particular Isikhumplazi, the dog, the cat belongs to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Please calm down.

MR PATEL: And you are saying that you had a bona fide belief that by shooting into this shop in respect of whom you have identified not one person, that you were furthering the aims of the IFP?  You had a reasonable belief that this is what you were doing?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I didn't get it from the IFP, the instruction it was Noah Mqobakazi.

MR PATEL: And whose aims was he furthering?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It was for Inkatha, the liberation of the people at the time.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Why was it that when you shot at Mrs Tilly who had a baby in her arms ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On her back.

MR PATEL: That's a real cultural difference.  With a baby on her back, that you were so careful and you say in your evidence, how careful you were not to shoot at the baby, and yet when you go to shoot at this shop and you fire blindly through windows and doors or wherever, you couldn't give a -you don't care?