Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR CURRIN: : Mr Chairman I'm not sure whether they knewthat it would proceed today.   The difficulty is with all theapplicants, and there are about 40 family members who have beentold to be on hold and that they would be contacted as and whentheir matter is due to be heard, many of them are employed theycan't sit here for two weeks and wait for their matter to be heardand the arrangement is that they will be advised in advance andwe have been advising our clients in advance as to when they shouldbe here, depending upon the arrangement that was made the previous.  As far as today is concerned, the arrangement was unequivocalthat the Motasa matter would be heard today so the arrangementswe made with our clients were with the Motasa's and in fact themother and child are both here at the moment and their matteris now not going to be called.   I believe Sepia was not advisedthat his matter would be heard today.   Maybe Mr Mpshe can informyou further on that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Currin the position, the reality now isthat it has become difficult to proceed with Motasa's case...

MR CURRIN: : I accept that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : And the further reality is that the only othermatter we can proceed with is Sebia's case.   I respect your
2. statement /...
MR MPSHE 459 ADDRESS
statement that the family may not be here, but you are also notunmindful of the fact that you are their legal representative.  Are you of the view that we cannot proceed even if they arenot there and although you are here, have you not consulted themfully?   I know they have got the right to be here but we knowthat last week you asked for an adjournment of about three daysor so, so that you could consult with all your clients.   Presumablythis included the Sebia people as well, I don't know, but givenall these difficulties that we have and this reality before us,are you saying that we cannot see our way through to proceedingwith the Sebia matter?

MR CURRIN: : The Sebia instruction we got yesterday, it'sthe only matter that we're not ready to proceed on, we're readyto proceed on all the other matters where we are involved.   Iwas told that the Zozo Hut matter would be called next becausethere the relevant family members are not in the country and theyknow the matter is here and they know it is proceeding, and theyhave no objection to the matter proceeding in their absence andI was told that that matter would proceed now.

CHAIRPERSON: A great deal of time is taken up unfortunatelyin problems of this kind.   I think greater effort should be madeto co-ordinate your activities, it is not always possible to carryout decisions that are taken two days ago, but I think at theend of each day if a decision is taken as to how the proceedingsare going to take place the next day, everybody ought to try andabide by those decisions.   I do not like adjourning these hearingsat short notice every now and then, just to enable hiccups ofthis kind to be sorted out, but it does seem that if take thisshort adjournment
2. now /...
MR DU PLESSIS 460 ADDRESS
now we might save some time in the long run and I hope that withinthat short time you will finally decide who we are proceedingwith and make a beginning immediately we commence.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman perhaps an adjournment wouldnot be necessary, we are ready to go ahead with Brigadier Cronjeon the Ribiero matter.   I can call Brigadier Cronje on the Ribieromatter.   I can call Captain Hechter on the Ribiero matter, wecan go ahead with that matter it's really not necessary to adjournMr Chairman.

MR CURRIN: : Very well we are ready to go on with whateverincident suits all the other parties.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Currin, will your team ensure that all theirpeople who are involved in this matter make themselves available,this is a matter of grave importance, they can't always be toldwhat time on which day their case will be heard.   If they areconcerned about what is happening in this tribunal they will makearrangements to be here so that when their matter is heard theyare ready and available?

MR CURRIN: : Mr Chairman we have very, very good communicationwith all our clients.   We make arrangements before the day commencesand we ensure that the people that are required on that day arepresent.   The arrangements were changed this morning, a matterwas proceeding and we were ready with our clients.   The factthat those arrangements were changed were really out of our hands.  We can get clients here at short notice as long as we are givensome sort of detail.   Many of the people are travelling fromlong distances, many of them are unemployed, at our expense weare transporting them here and back, we are co-ordinating thoseefforts and we will co-operate absolutely
2. with /...
MR CURRIN 461 ADDRESS
with this Committee to ensure that they will be here and we havedone that to this very moment.   That is the  only matter wherewe are not ready to proceed is the Sebia matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.   Mr Du Plessis will you proceed?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Thank you Mr Chairman, I call BrigadierCronje on the Ribiero matter.   In Brigadier's application youwill find that on page 131.
2. JAN /...
MR DU PLESSIS 462 J H CRONJE
JAN HATTINGH CRONJE (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier could you page to page 131 of yourapplication?   Brigadier would you present to the Committee yourinvolvement in the matter of Dr Fabian Ribiero and his wife?

ANSWER: Chair, I was contacted by Commandant Charl Naudeof Special Forces, who requested me to provide him with a memorandumwith regard to Dr Ribiero and his activities.

UNKNOWN: Was this Charl Naude notified about thishearing that...?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman a number of notifications wentout yesterday on all who were involved in all matters.   Thesewere issued yesterday and an attempt was made to serve them yesterday.

JUDGE WILSON: : Were they served?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman I cannot say whether they wereserved or not, but what I can vouch on is that they were doneand they were signed yesterday, the notifications, and they wentout with investigators to go and serve.   I have not receivedreturns of service this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps during the adjournment you will sortthat out.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you Mr Chairman.
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS (contd)