Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-18

MR LAX: Yes, no, no, no-one's questioning your assumption, all we're trying to understand, and you really must understand us here, what we're just trying to understand is how you arrive at that conclusion.  Either you saw it or you are concluding that from facts that you saw afterwards.  We're just trying to separate that out, that's all really.  There's no need to feel worried about how the question is put.  You have to help us you see.

ELSIE BUWA: I concluded that they entered through the window because the doors would not open.

MR LOWIES: When did you meet Mr Zulu for the first time?

ELSIE BUWA: I would not say, but it had been a very long time.  I had known him for a very long time in the township.  I cannot say exactly how long, but it's been a long time.

MR LOWIES: Was there ever trouble between the two of you or between his family and your family? - that you know of.

ELSIE BUWA: No, we never had any problems with the Zulu family.  He used to take our children to go and practise cultural dances.

MR LOWIES: Who were these children?

ELSIE BUWA: My grandchildren.  Do you want the names?

MR LOWIES: Please.

ELSIE BUWA: Mlalifa and Zolile.

MR LOWIES: Were they there the night of the attack?

ELSIE BUWA: No, they were not there, they had left because their mothers had taken them along.

MR LOWIES: When did they leave, the same day or long before?

ELSIE BUWA: They left before the attack because their mothers took them even before we knew that we were going to be attacked.  They went to stay with their mothers.

MR LOWIES: On the very same day or days or so before the attack?

ELSIE BUWA: I am saying it was before the attack when their mothers took them, saying they wanted to take them to school in the Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what she is saying is that it was long before the attack.

MR LOWIES: It was not clear, but thank you Chairman, I take the point.
	Right.  Now were any of the members inside this house, that resided there, members of the comrades?

ELSIE BUWA: No, these children were still very young and none of them could have been a comrade, and they were not comrades.

MR LOWIES: The father of the house, was he a comrade or a member of the SDU? - John Buwa.

ELSIE BUWA: John is not my husband, John is my son.

MR LOWIES: No, but the question is, John, was he a comrade or a member of the SDU?

ELSIE BUWA: I don't know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: What is the age of John?

ELSIE BUWA: I don't know how old is he now, he's quite grown up.  Look, I'm old now, I don't know these things, I'm just as good as a baby.

MR LOWIES: Now, were there other grown-up men or boys at the address, besides John, on the night of the attack?

ELSIE BUWA: No, there were no grown-up children, there were just children.

MR LOWIES: Normally, were there grown-up men residing there besides John, in 1992?

ELSIE BUWA: No, there were no grown-up boys in the household.

MR LOWIES: And Mtwana Zulu, he would know that - Vanana Zulu, he would know that because he knew you well, on your version.

ELSIE BUWA: He knew because they were not grown-ups when he took them along to go and get involved in dance.

MR LOWIES: Mkalifa and Mzoli, did they have other names, nicknames?

ELSIE BUWA: No.

MR LOWIES: So everybody in the street used to call them Mkalifa and Mzoli?

ELSIE BUWA: Yes, that's how they were known.

MR LOWIES: Mzoli.

CHAIRPERSON: Zolile and Mlalifa.

MR LOWIES: I see, thank you Chair.
	You understood the question hey?

ELSIE BUWA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LOWIES: About the names of the children.

INTERPRETER: The answer was "no", Chairperson.

MR LOWIES: Mlalifa and Zolile, they were only known by these two names in the street and in the township, is that correct?

ELSIE BUWA: They were only known by these two names.

MR LOWIES: Did you see Mr Wilson Baloyi on the night of the attack?

ELSIE BUWA: You see Wilson Baloyi stays in his own place, he was at his house.

MR LOWIES: Ja, but did you see him on the night of the attack at all?

ELSIE BUWA: I saw him during the day, before the attack.

MR LOWIES: Did he warn you about an imminent attack?

ELSIE BUWA: No, he did not tell me anything about the imminent attack.

MR LOWIES: What was the illumination like outside the house on the night of the attack, was there a lot of smoke in the air?

ELSIE BUWA: I only left the house when we were being transported to hospital by ambulance.

MR LOWIES: And then, what was it like, can you recall?

ELSIE BUWA: It was not dark, I could see there was light.

MR LOWIES: Could you see Baloyi's house?

ELSIE BUWA: Yes, I could see it.

MR LOWIES: What provided the light on that night, or when you went outside, can you recall?

ELSIE BUWA: The moon.

MR LOWIES: Yes, is that all?

ELSIE BUWA: And the lights were providing light.

MR LOWIES: Which lights?

ELSIE BUWA: The street lights.

MR LOWIES: But I thought there were only apollo lights, are you referring to apollo lights as street lights?

ELSIE BUWA: It is the big light that I'm talking about, it is the one that was providing illumination.

MR LOWIES: After the attack, did you speak to Mr Wilson Baloyi, can you recall?

ELSIE BUWA: I do not quite understand.

MR LOWIES: Did you speak to him after the attack about the incident of the night? - any stage afterwards.

ELSIE BUWA: No, I did not talk to him.

MR LOWIES: Even up until today?

ELSIE BUWA: I went to hospital and I came back.

MR LOWIES: And thereafter?

ELSIE BUWA: And on the day after I had come back from hospital a very big vehicle came.  I don't know what it is called, I think it was called a Koyoco.  It stopped in front of my house.  It was being driven by a white person and he was in the company of a black man.  I went to the gate and they said to me they had brought this clothing or items.

MR LOWIES: And was Baloyi there?

ELSIE BUWA: Baloyi was at his place and he came out through the gate to observe what was happening.

MR LOWIES: Yes, and then?  Did you talk to him about the incident then?

ELSIE BUWA: What was I supposed to say to him, because he too had been attacked?

MR LOWIES: Exactly that.  Didn't you discuss what happened at your house and what happened at his house?

ELSIE BUWA: No, we did not.

MR LOWIES: Now this happened the next day you say, the day after the attack the white man came with the clothes etc.

UNKNOWN: She said after she returned from hospital.

MR LOWIES: I retract the question.  How long had you been in hospital?

ELSIE BUWA: I went to hospital on that evening and I came back, but one girl who was hacked on the head remained behind.

MR LOWIES: So the very next day you were there at home, the day after the attack?

ELSIE BUWA: I came back in the morning the following day.

MR LOWIES: And it was on that day that the police arrived there, or the people arrived with the clothes?

ELSIE BUWA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: What time of day was it approximately, was it in the morning or in the afternoon when they arrived?

ELSIE BUWA: It was during the day, I cannot recall the time.  I did tell you that I'm not educated.

MR LOWIES: But you would know if it is in the afternoon or in the evening or in the early morning, that's all I need.

ELSIE BUWA: It was in the afternoon.

MR LOWIES: It was in the afternoon.

ADV SIGODI: She's saying it was not in the afternoon, it was midmorning, midday.

INTERPRETER: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR LOWIES: Thank you.  Now were you requested by the police to make a statement?

ELSIE BUWA: The police came and they wanted a statement from me and I did not give them any statement.

MR LOWIES: Do you reside - sorry, is your telephone number 88 3622?

ELSIE BUWA: I don't know the telephone number, but yes, we had a phone in the house.

MR LOWIES: Were you not requested to tell the police what happened on the night of the incident?

ELSIE BUWA: Who, who was asking me?

MR LOWIES: The police.