Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-18

PROF MEIRING: I believe you can say that the wound was very much inflamed and that was the reason that it was not able to heal.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much for that. It may be that some of my colleagues would like to add a question or two.

MR MALAN: Mr Madraai, just a few questions please, in what way were you politically active, you say in your statement that you were politically active, were you politically active in this conflict taking place between the different chiefs?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: The way it was in our village, I knew under whose leadership I was before.  I knew it was T J, he was the guy which we knew from the beginning.  Later on he married and she is Refi Lomutabo and they were just fighting about chieftainship.

MR MALAN: Was it a kind of shebeen or a kind of formal place, what was this place?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: A bar lounge and a cafe.

MR MALAN: And the person who these two people were looking for, it seems as if they were looking for someone because somebody came running out, this young man called Johannes.  Did you know Johannes?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: Yes I knew him.

MR MALAN: Was Johannes a political activist? Would you know why they were trying to find Johannes?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: I did not really know the reason why they were chasing after him.  What I knew is that I met them chasing the guy and he fell in front of me, and then I just asked, how can he just leave a person whom he wanted, and I laughed at him. That's why he grabbed me and we started fighting.

MR MALAN: Were you perhaps in any way seen as interfering in what was going on between Johannes and the other person who was chasing him or were you seen as interfering or having got in the way in any way?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: I think those people, they didn't look like they were having a real problem, and the way he fell in front of me, it looked like he just left the guy to run away, so I didn't think there was something very serious between them.  I thought maybe they were just running after each other, doing something else.

MR MALAN: You say that both these men, the white man who you later found out was Augustine, is that the name?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: Yes he is.

MR MALAN: They were members of the South African Force, is that true?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Were they in uniform at the time or not?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: No.

MR MALAN: When you took your case to the court, who were you charging, were you charging them in their individual capacity or were you charging them as members of the South African Defense Force?  What was the case?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: I was charging them as members of the SADF.

MR MALAN: So you were charging the Minister of the SADF?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: Actually I opened the case telling the police that I was shot by the soldiers.

MR MALAN: You lost that case, what was the decision of the court?  Do you know?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: In Pietersburg Court they sentenced these guys three years and after that we went to the Supreme Court for compensation.  When we arrived they postponed to the following day, when we went that day Eben Smit just informed us that we have to go back home, they will fax the information about the case back to us, and when we got the information they just told us that we lost the case.  When I asked the reasons why, they said those guys were favoured because they were members of the SADF.

MR MALAN: Both of them, Augustine and the white man, or just Augustine?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: It was Augustine and the other guy and I forgot his name, I think he was Potgieter.

MR MALAN: When they were sentenced, did they actually go to jail?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: Yes.

MR MALAN: You received no compensation?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: No.

MR MALAN: And presently, how do you survive, do you work, what income do you receive?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: Nothing was given to me since I was injured, I'm unemployed at the moment.  I just live by people helping me sometimes.  My friends and relatives help me sometimes.

MR MALAN: Is that your only child?

PHILIP LESETJA MADRAAE: No, some are away for vacations with my brother. I have two kids.

THOMAS MANTHATA: We heard your problem Mr Madraae.  We will try by all means as the Commission to solve your problems.  We realise the situation you are in at the moment.  We know you are experiencing problems as you are a family man.  We will try and work together with you to solve this problem. Thank you very much for coming forward.