Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

MR BERGER: Now, you'd all had a very late night, how is it that the goods were being burned at 8 o'clock that morning?  You see, surely somebody must have come around to the rooms to say we're going to burn the property?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I would not dispute that, I was in the shower.  I woke up that morning and took a shower and when I went out I saw a big smoke of the burning goods.  I would not dispute the fact that someone might have said the goods must be burned.

MR BERGER: And did you ask anybody why are the goods being burned?

JACK MBELE: I did not ask why, I knew what was happening.

MR BERGER: And things that were being burned were television sets, clocks, fridges, stuff like that, am I right?

JACK MBELE: You are right but you are wrong when you make reference to a fridge, I have never seen someone carrying a fridge.  But you are right about videos, televisions, duvets and blankets but you are making a mistake when you make reference to a fridge.

MR BERGER: How long did the fire go on for?

JACK MBELE: Quite some time, a long time but I don't want to commit myself as to how long but it was a long time.

MR BERGER: It must have taken hours to burn T.V. sets, video machines, hard items like that.  It must have taken a very long time?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I'm saying a long time, whether an hour, less than an hour, more than an hour, I do not want to commit myself but it was a long time.

MR BERGER: What about the weapons which had been used during the attack, what happened to them?

JACK MBELE: I don't want to lie, I do not know what happened to them but the Police arrived late that day with Themba Khoza and them.  We were searched.  My gun and Makuka's were hidden.  After the Police had searched, when we went back where we hid them, the guns were not there.  I would say the Police confiscated those guns.

MR BERGER: Where did the guns come from in the first place?

JACK MBELE: Which guns, our guns, my gun as well as Makuka's or the hostel guns?

MR BERGER: Your gun was an unlicenced gun.  Would I be correct to say it was a stolen gun?

JACK MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: Who stole the gun?

JACK MBELE: I would not say we stole the gun.  We bought the gun from someone who sells them.

MR BERGER: Who is the person that you bought it from?

JACK MBELE: Someone called Neymbe who resided at Sebokeng Hostel.

MR BERGER: That night there were people armed with AK47's, shotguns, other rifles, is that correct?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Where did those weapons come from?

JACK MBELE: I only know the guns that were brought by Damarra in his Skyline vehicle.  Those are the guns I saw in the stadium, the AK47's.  Others who had guns I know that they got hold of the guns in their different ways, they must have used different ways to get those guns.

MR BERGER: When did you see Damarra bringing the guns to the hostel?

JACK MBELE: I think it was after the first meeting of the hostel.  They were next to his room on the ground.

MR BERGER: Which meeting are you referring to?

JACK MBELE: I'm referring to the meeting of a week before Boipatong.

MR BERGER: That's the meeting when it was decided that Boipatong would be attacked, am I correct?

JACK MBELE: It was not decided that Boipatong will be attacked, we were told to prepare for an attack whether it was an attack on Sharpeville, Sebokeng, Boipatong, we were not told.  We were just told to prepare for an attack, we were told that each one must have his things ready.  Where we were going to it was not disclosed.

MR BERGER: In your affidavit at page 130 you, at the top of the page you say that Boipatong was mentioned at the meeting a week before.  You say that that is a mistake?

JACK MBELE: I'ts a big mistake.  That's a big mistake I've made.

MR BERGER: How could you make such a mistake Mr Mbele?

JACK MBELE: I realised after writing this that we did not know at the first meeting the place of attack, we only knew on the 17th the base to be attacked.

MR BERGER: When you wrote this affidavit it was this year, correct?

JACK MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: You knew when you signed this affidavit that Boipatong was not mentioned at the meeting one week before the attack?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You knew that if anyone said that Boipatong was mentioned at that meeting that that would be a big mistake?

JACK MBELE: I would say so.  If you mention that Boipatong was mentioned in the first meeting that would have been a big mistake.

MR BERGER: Well, why then did you tell the person who was writing this affidavit that Boipatong was mentioned, in other words, why did you make this big mistake if you knew at the time that it was a big mistake?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, this Boipatong incident happened many years ago and I was still in prison when I wrote this affidavit and when the lawyer came to me to point out this to me, that's when I became clear of this and I told him that.  That's when he told me about the amnesty and I said yes, I would like to apply, but you must remember that I'm also forgetful.  I made a mistake by mentioning Boipatong in that case.

MR BERGER: When did the lawyer point out to you that this was a mistake?

JACK MBELE: Yesterday, Sir.

MR BERGER: And was it yesterday after the lawyer pointed out to you that this is a mistake that you then agreed yes it is a mistake?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Who pointed out to you that this is a mistake?

JACK MBELE: Nobody told me that this is a mistake.  Nobody pointed out to me that this was a mistake.  Before we got into this hall, as I was going through the statement, I went to him, I said:  "Listen, in the first meeting there was no conclusion at all that Boipatong was going to be attacked, I made a mistake".  That is before I could get into this hall, I went through the statement and I explained to him that Sir, Boipatong was never mentioned in the first meeting.

MR BERGER: Have you now made another big mistake, Mr Mbele, because two minutes ago you said that yesterday for the first time the lawyer came to you and pointed out this mistake and then you agreed after it had been pointed out to you that it was a mistake.  Now you're saying that evidence is not correct?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I am saying to you now, I read this affidavit because the lawyer told me you are next and I went through the statement so that I can confirm that what is written here is correct.  Now I told him that the Boipatong issue was never discussed in the first meeting.  It was discussed in the second meeting when we were leaving for Boipatong, then he asked me the questions yesterday about this mistake and I agreed that this is a mistake committed by myself.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, please listen carefully to my question.  Why did you say that yesterday for the first time the lawyer pointed out the mistake to you and you agreed yes there's a mistake.  Why did you say that?

JACK MBELE: I agreed to that because he mentioned - he pointed out that mistake before this Committee, he told the Committee that this person agrees that he made a mistake and before this Committee I agreed that yes I made a mistake.

MR BERGER: No, no.  The pointing out of the mistake was before you gave evidence.

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR BERGER: So my question to you remains then, why did you give that evidence?  You see - Mr Mbele do you see the difference?

JACK MBELE: I see the difference.

MR BERGER: Why did you give the first bit of evidence and then change it?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I'm saying to you this happened long time ago.  When the Boipatong incident took place I did not record everything as to what was said in the first meeting as to what was said in the second meeting.  I never thought that one of the days I would be sitting before the Truth Commission telling the truth.  I never thought of that.  That is why this mistake occurred.