Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I was about four or five years old.

MR BERGER: Now you explain in paragraph 5 of your statement how you arrived in Botswana and then you went to the Refugee Camp.

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you talk about how your grandfather, Mr Dick Mtsweni, obtained employment as a driver for the ANC.  You see that in paragraph 6.

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, I did explain that.

MR BERGER: Could you elaborate on the kind of work that your grandfather was doing at that time as a driver?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, I did mention that he was a driver.  He  was a driver in Botswana, driving ANC vehicles, transporting people and food and he would take people to the airport when the need arose and that was mainly to do that and also supplying food to the people, the ANC people.

MR BERGER: How old was your grandfather at that time?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: He was in his early seventies, even though I cannot say with certainty.  Maybe it could have been his late sixties to seventies, but he was an old man, as I'm saying.

MR BERGER: Was his name Nkulu?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: No, I'm saying Nkulu because he was my grandfather.  He was my maternal grandfather, that was not his name per se.

MR BERGER: Besides his work as a driver, as you described, what other activities was he involved in from day to day?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: He started attending school and he was also driving, there's nothing else that I can recall except for the two things.

MR BERGER: School, what was he doing at school?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: He could not write and read properly, so he decided to go to school, so as to improve his reading and writing skills to eliminate the need of having somebody reading and writing for him.

MR BERGER: And how often would he go to school?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Daily, in the evening.

MR BERGER: Was that after he had finished his driving duties?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, that was after work.  He would then go to school in the evenings.

MR BERGER: You've already confirmed your statement, so I'm not going to take you through the details of the attack.  What I want to ask you is in the last paragraph of your statement at page 5, paragraph 14, you say
"My grandfather was definitely not involved in MK activities"

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes.

MR BERGER: How can you say that?  Why do you say that?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I'm saying this because on hearing the name MK, I'm thinking of firearms and army uniforms.  I've never seen firearms at home and I don't recall my grandfather being away, not knowing his whereabouts and he never had a uniform.  I never saw him in a military uniform.  That is why I'm saying he was not a member of the MK.

MR BERGER: Is it possible that he could have been involved in MK activities and you didn't know about it, besides his driving duties and going to school?  Is it possible that he was doing MK work?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I do not suppose so because my family was close-knit and he would tell us where he was going each time he left and he would be back home as usual.  If he left in the morning he would take me to school and I would know that he would pick me up from school in the afternoon and in the evening we would expect him home, which he never failed and he would take his books and go to school and he was very open and had time for us and his family and it is for this reason that I'm saying there's nothing that he could have concealed from us, I mean anything about his involvement in the MK.

MR BERGER: How old are you now?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I'm 26 years old.

MR BERGER: What work are you doing now?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I'm still at school  I'm not working.

MR BERGER: What are you studying for?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I'm doing marketing.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR COETSER: Mr Chairman, I have no questions except I would like to state to the witness that I am certainly very, very sorry indeed to read and to hear what happened to her family.  Thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER

MR VISSER: Ms Mokoena, when you grandfather left to go and live in Botswana, did you immediately accompany him on that occasion?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, we all left, myself, my grandfather and grandmother and other siblings in the family.

MR VISSER: But your grandfather had two wives, if I understand your statement correctly in paragraph 5.

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: So did he leave with both his wives, or what is the position?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: No, the women stayed in separate residences in separate townships.

MR VISSER: Did they not leave with him for Botswana in 1981?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: They accompanied him to Botswana, yes.

MR VISSER: That's what I wanted to know.  And would I be correct to say that you were 10 to 11 years old in 198 - what is your date of birth, do you know?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, 1974, on the 8th of October.

MR VISSER: So that would have made you almost 11 years old at the time when this raid took place in 1984, have I got that right?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: That is correct, yes, I had just turned 11.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Well, and you've just told us that the two grandmothers, can I call them your grandmothers?  Would that be correct to say that?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, of course, they are my grandmothers.

MR VISSER: Yes, they lived in two separate houses.

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Alright, we'll come back to that in a moment.  You also had two uncles who had left South Africa, is that correct?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Were they older or younger than your grandfather?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Of course they were younger than him, they were his children, that means they were obviously younger than him.

CHAIRPERSON: But you know - listen to this.  To be fair to Mr Visser, it wasn't clear whether your uncles were your grandfather's children.

MR VISSER: But I accept your answer.  Why did they leave South Africa?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Would you please repeat the question.

MR VISSER: Why did your uncles leave South Africa, do you know?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: They left with an intention of furthering their studies, that is what I was told.

MR VISSER: And do you know where they were in 1981, or rather at any time, do you know where they were after they had left South Africa?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: No, I did not know.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So there was nothing wrong in telling anybody that your uncles were studying in a foreign country, was there?

MR MALAN: I'm not sure I understand the question Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Was there anything wrong, or anything dangerous about telling anybody that your uncles were studying in a foreign country?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: No, I never used to discuss anything about my uncles.

MR VISSER: Why is that?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I used to stay with my grandfather, not my uncles.

MR VISSER: Oh I see, so you didn't talk about them, because you knew nothing about them, is that what you're saying?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Nobody came to me to ask anything about them.  Nobody came to me to inquire about them until the incident that I have mentioned in the document here in number 3, in my statement.

MR VISSER: It's that paragraph I'm asking you about, you see.  Now you were taken to a police station and you were questioned about where they were, not so?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did the police question you as well?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: They gave me pictures of people and they wanted to know who these people were.

MR VISSER: Did the police ask you whether you knew where your uncles were?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: No, they showed me pictures.

MR VISSER: So when you say in your statement that they questioned you about the whereabouts of your two uncles who had left South Africa, that would not be correct?