Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

JOHN RADEBE: I think the difference is that, the conflict is because, is because when I change from one unit to another there is nowhere where I would write down that I'm changing from the one unit to the other unit.  That is a thing which just happened, and I found myself in a different unit.  And all units within Sebokeng are united.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, I don't know whether it is part of your nature to respond to questions in the fashion in which you have been responding.  You do not respond to what is being sought to be established by a particular question.  You do on to ramble about unnecessary evidence that is not material to your application.  I must implore you again to try and keep to issues which are sought to be elicited by a question.  Questions are not put to you for the sake of being put to you, they are intended to elicit important information that will assist us in deciding your application.  You at time do more damage than good in the manner in which you are responding to questions.  Try and confine your responses to issues which are sought by any question put to you.  To come back to the problem at hand.  What is being asked of you is to try and explain why we are sitting with two different versions, particularly in regard to when you became a member of the Zone 12 unit.  You will recall that before we took our tea adjournment, and when I asked you when you became a member of the Zone 12 unit after you had stated in your evidence in chief that you were a member of a unit that was located at Small Farm, your evidence was that you became a member of the Zone 12 unit after you had experienced problems at Small Farms and then you moved to the Zone 12 unit.  When I asked you to estimate when you became such a member, you said you would be unable to do so.  Then I said you must do so by making use of the occurrence of the Elsie Mokoena and Hapile Ndumo incident which occurred on the 15th of August 1993, and your response that was that you became a member of the Zone 12 unit after that incident had occurred.  However, when we came back from our tea adjournment and you were still being questioned by your counsel, you gave a different version of when you became a member of the SDU, and your evidence in that regard was that you became a member of the Zone 12 unit SDU approximately 2 to 3 months before the incident occurred.  Now you have been requested to explain how you could give two conflicting versions with regard to when you became a member of the Zone 12 unit.

JOHN RADEBE: Let me try to explain.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may do so.

JOHN RADEBE: We had only one unit in the whole unit in the whole of Sebokeng.  For us to have various sub-units was that we should uniformity because even the criminals may be part of us and then do things which are not in accord with our structure.  That is why I had a problem.  I'm asking.  I will ask that I'm requesting that if I made that mistake the community, the Committee should try to understand because I'm able to operate in Zone 7 and in Zone 8.  If I found comrades in Zone 18 and they were fighting I cannot just leave them alone, I should try to intervene.  I'm requesting the Committee to forgive me for the conflict or the contradiction.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: On the same point Mr Radebe, I'm not quite sure of what you are saying.  Are you saying now that you were confused because even if you were a SDU member of Small Farm you could still operate in Zone 12?  Is that your evidence now

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Then can you explain why there was need for you to change from Small Farm unit to Zone 12 unit, whenever, whenever you changed?  Why was there need for you to change if it didn't matter in which unit you belonged to in the first place?

JOHN RADEBE: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: There is no translation, Mr translator, through our headphones.

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to translate to us so far?  Will you need Mr Radebe to repeat?

INTERPRETER: Yes I request so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe when you were giving your evidence in Sesotho the interpreter was unable to pick up what you said.  Will you please just repeat yourself so that what you said earlier on can be translated to us in English.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(not translated to English)

INTERPRETER: May you please try to repeat your question because we are not able to hear in English because it was not translated.

JOHN RADEBE: What I was saying is that for a person to change from a particular unit, I beg your pardon, Ms Thabethe was asking me why did I change from Small Farm to Zone 12 unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we want your answer to that question.

JOHN RADEBE: My answer is that in, within the SDU unit in Small Farm I was not satisfied the way they were operating because I was prepared to patrol day and night but at times you would find that there was a car at a particular post and some people were shot and they would not give you the full account of the incident.  Because I observed that the community would not have trust in us because we would say people were shot and the car has left the scene without being noticed.  That is why I joined comrade Mabusa and others because they were committed to their work.

MS THABETHE: So are you saying whilst you were still in Small Farm, you were working for the Small Farm community as an SDU there?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: So it's not true that whilst you were an SDU in Small Farm you could also operate in Zone 12?

JOHN RADEBE: That is true I would work in a different unit.

MS THABETHE: Is your evidence that SDU's used to work interchangeably in different sections or in different zones?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is my testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: I am finding some problems in understanding this aspect of your evidence.  I have understood you to be giving us the reason why you left the Small Farm unit and joined comrade Mabusa's unit in Zone 12 as having been because of your dissatisfaction with how that unit operated.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And not because you could work, you could be a member of a particular sub-unit and still operate in the activities of other sub-units in your area.  Do you understand my difficulty?

JOHN RADEBE: Within Sebokeng all units were helping, every unit were helping one another, we're helping each other in different ways.  Other comrades would inform us that we're going to have a night vigil in a particular area.  We would go there to that particular place to patrol that area for the whole night. ...(indistinct) those people were shooting at the community during the night vigils.

CHAIRPERSON: My difficulty emanates from understanding your evidence.  Is it your evidence that you could have been a member of the Small Farm unit and still participate in operations and or activities of another unit?  For instance the Zone 12 unit.  Is that your evidence?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, it would not have mattered therefore whether you were dissatisfied or otherwise with the way in which your unit was performing its function.  That wouldn't have mattered.

JOHN RADEBE: At that time it was important to me.  I thought it would be better if I would be part of the Zone 12 unit.

CHAIRPERSON: You elected to leave the Small Farm unit.  You resigned from the Small Farm unit and joined comrade Mabusa's unit in Zone 12.

JOHN RADEBE: I would not say I resigned because we were working hand in hand with other units.  It was just to change position to another sub-unit.  But it doesn't mean that if I move from that unit I would not go back and help them.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's understand your comprehension of moving.  If you move from one unit and you then become second in charge of another unit, what do you understand that to be?