Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

JOHN WILLS: And when you arrived at the police station on the morning of the 8th, sorry the 7th to see him, he freely conversed with you?

H J P BOTHA: No, he pretended not to know me, I did the same.

JOHN WILLS: And later you spoke to him at the safe-house.  Is that where you debriefed him, when you took him away from C R Swart?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

JOHN WILLS: Now there's evidence to the effect that at the time at C R Swart station he was beaten badly for half and hour.  Do you see signs of this?

H J P BOTHA: No.

JOHN WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I'm referring to this exhibit which is the Adasa report, it's page  34 of some papers that I received from the Commission yesterday.  I'm not exactly sure of the exhibit number, but it's the Wannenberg report that Mr Visser refers to, it's page 37 thereon.  It basically an extract as I see it from the trial of de Kock in the matter of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Page 34?

JOHN WILLS: It starts on 34, the reference is at page 37 where it's the evidence of, it's in the case of the murder of Sekekane and it's the evidence of Myeza, the testimony of Myeza who was a witness in that case, where he says
"At headquarters a number of Security police officers arrived, inter alia Col Andy Taylor"
Do you confirm he was there?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, I confirm it.

JOHN WILLS: Capt Botha.  Were you a captain at that stage?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

JOHN WILLS: So that's referring to you?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

JOHN WILLS: And Larry Hampton, I believe that might be Wasserman.  Is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: No, I don't know whom you're referring to, I read the name Larry Hampton.

JOHN WILLS: Is there a security person by the name of Larry Hampton?  A member of your staff?

H J P BOTHA: No, he wasn't a member of my staff, but I know of him.

JOHN WILLS: Was he there at the time?

H J P BOTHA: He wasn't there.

JOHN WILLS: The evidence goes on to the effect that
"Charles Ndaba was questioned and assaulted for 30 minutes before Myeza and Goodwill were ordered to leave.  They never saw him again."
You dispute that?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

JOHN WILLS: Can you think of any reason why this person would lie to a court?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, what's unclear to me is that according to Mr Wills this is the evidence of one Myeza, but as far as I can remember Myeza didn't testify in de Kock's case.  So I can't comment.

JOHN WILLS: So you deny that there was an assault?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, I deny it.

JOHN WILLS: You deny that you ever assaulted Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: I deny it yes.

JOHN WILLS: What about Shabalala?  What happened to him?

H J P BOTHA: When?

JOHN WILLS: After you arrested him?

CHAIRPERSON: On that particular day, on the day of the arrest?

JOHN WILLS: On the day of the arrest, from the time of the arrest until you mercilessly killed him?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just concentrate.  You want to know what happened first of all on the day he was arrested?

JOHN WILLS: Yes. My question, Mr Chairperson, is I want to know if either this witness, this applicant or any of his subordinates assaulted Shabalala, if he has knowledge of him being assaulted whilst under his control from the time of his arrest until his murder some 7 days later?

H J P BOTHA: No Chairperson, he was not assaulted, not by me and also not by people in my presence, or that I saw.

JOHN WILLS: Did you ever witness in your experiences as Security policeman, the assault on suspects in order to get information from them?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, I did.

JOHN WILLS: My understanding and my previous experience in law indicates that this was a fairly common experience.

H J P BOTHA: It was.

JOHN WILLS: So why was Shabalala treated differently?

H J P BOTHA: Because the situation was such that I conceived the idea to eliminate him and it would have been stupid of me to arrest or assault him and to leave any marks if there was a choice between releasing him or whatever the plan might have been thereafter.

JOHN WILLS: So you made the decision to eliminate him immediately on his arrest?

H J P BOTHA: No.  I've already testified that on the 11th I started forming that idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that they slipped up by not assaulting him?

JOHN WILLS: I'm suggesting, Mr Chairperson, that this witness has been less than forthright with the Committee at this stage, but I will leave that for argument.

CHAIRPERSON: No, let's get this absolutely clear.  I understand your evidence that you at no stage assaulted Shabalala nor did any of your juniors, those under you, assault Shabalala in your presence?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Next question.  Could he have been assaulted when you were not there?

H J P BOTHA: It's possible.

JOHN WILLS: If it's possible, surely you would have noticed it?  I mean your evidence is to the effect that you had numerous communications with him over this period of a week.  You saw him, you went to Pretoria, you came back, you heard information about him, you reported to him, then you went and saw Ndaba.  You would have noticed had he been assaulted.  I want to know, did you notice any assault marks?

H J P BOTHA: No, I didn't see any marks.

JOHN WILLS: Now isn't it more likely that he could have been assaulted if he was uncooperative?

H J P BOTHA: It is possible.

JOHN WILLS: It's not possible, surely it's probable?  If he was cooperative there'd be no reason to assault him.  If he was uncooperative the chances are that he would have been assaulted in order to just edge him on a little bit towards cooperation.  Isn't that why people are assaulted, to get information out of them?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

JOHN WILLS: So you will agree with that statement that it is more probable that he would have been assaulted had he not been cooperative in order to try and make him cooperative?

H J P BOTHA: It is possible.

JOHN WILLS: Is it not probable?  The mike can't read sign language, please speak into the mike.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I think you have a problem with understanding me.  It is possible, I didn't see it, I didn't see the marks.  What is it that you don't understand?

JOHN WILLS: I'm trying to draw a distinction between...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You see it's a general proposition that he's putting.  You denied that Shabalala was assaulted.

H J P BOTHA: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: He's putting forward a general proposition that isn't it the practice of the police to assault people who are not co-operative in order to make them cooperative.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, I've already said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the next question is, isn't that what happened to Shabalala?

H J P BOTHA: I wouldn't know because I didn't see it.

JOHN WILLS: I put it to you that he was assaulted and that you did see it and you saw signs of it.

H J P BOTHA: I didn't see it, I didn't do it, I don't know whether he assaulted.

JOHN WILLS: Okay, we get on now to what I put to you was the 8th when he was arrested.  Was he taken at the same time to the safe-house with Charles Ndaba, the same time?  Were they taken together?

H J P BOTHA: On the 7th, yes.

JOHN WILLS: Who took them?

H J P BOTHA: The vehicle was taken By Wasserman, du Preez and van der Westhuizen with Shabalala.  Ndaba drove with me in my vehicle.

JOHN WILLS: Where was the safe-house?

H J P BOTHA: In Verulam.

JOHN WILLS: Where exactly in Verulam?

H J P BOTHA: A place called Blackburn.

JOHN WILLS: Was this a Security Branch safe-house?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.  I said previously in evidence which was referred to, which was incorporated, I testified about that aspect.

JOHN WILLS: Yes, if I ask you again it means that I want you to answer again.  Where exactly, what was the address of this place?

H J P BOTHA: It was on the farm Blackburn.  It's part of Tongaat Farms.

JOHN WILLS: So this is a relatively short distance from Durban when you compare it with the Tugela River?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's obvious.