Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: We were told about Nkanja who was from the municipality police who worked with you for over a year before he actually became a member, no I don't think it was in evidence Mr Chairman, but I think I put it to a previous witness.

MR ERASMUS: Inspector Nkanja I know.  He was attached to the municipal police and he was included into the police and he was transferred to the security branch, that is my knowledge of him.

ADV MEMANI: Do you have difficulty just conceding that: "Yes, he worked with us for about a year before he actually became enlisted as a member of security branch"?

MR ERASMUS: No, my knowledge is that when Inspector - Inspector Nkanja was transferred to security branch and then worked there.  I have no knowledge that he previously worked somewhere else or had some relationship or attachment to the security branch before he started working there.  He was included into the staff.

ADV MEMANI: You were not even aware that he was from the municipality police?

MR ERASMUS: I am aware that he was of the municipal police.

ADV MEMANI: And Mkwena also, I was told he was from the municipality police and worked for security branch for over a year before he actually became a member.

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, my knowledge is that after the municipal police had been taken over by the South African Police and after they had been incorporated they immediately started working with us and this is my only knowledge about these two members.

ADV MEMANI: Thank you.
	Mr Chairman, if I may go through the notes?
	You've already testified about Nichos and you've said that you know him, isn't it?

MR ERASMUS: I met Mr Nichos, Constable Kabusa who rented a room from him knew him and that's how I met him.

ADV MEMANI: We hear evidence that Mr Nichos was harassed by security branch, from Mr Serame Molefe.

MR ERASMUS: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: Do you have - you seem to be throwing your eyes at your legal representatives, do you want them to assist you?

MR ERASMUS: No.

ADV MEMANI: Oh I see.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I cannot allow my learned friend, with great respect, to make remarks such as has just been made, on the record.  It's totally unfounded and unjustified, I object to it Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Erasmus, you said that - I put it to you that Mr Nichos was harassed by security branch and you said: "Yes" but I just want to make sure because it was not clear from the way I put it whether you intended to confirm that Nichos was in fact harassed by security branch.

MR ERASMUS: I agreed that there had been such testimony, I don't have knowledge that he was harassed by the security branch.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions - his evidence was that - no, I don't remember if your name was specifically mentioned, but my instructions are that you used to harass him together with Mr Motsamai.

MR ERASMUS: That is not the truth Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know that Mr Nichos had a night-club?

MR ERASMUS: Yes, I have knowledge of that fact.

ADV MEMANI: And part of the harassment involved Mr Motsamai being present regularly at the night-club despite the fact that he's not a drinker.

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, the night-club was relaxation, a place of relaxation for many of the black members.  I met some of the black members in that night-club.  It was definitely not intended to be harassment.

ADV MEMANI: Surely this does not involve any offence?

MR ERASMUS: Honourable Chair, it was stated to me as harassment and that is not the way I saw it.

ADV MEMANI: Was it monitoring perhaps?

MR ERASMUS: No, Chair.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I fail to see how the attendance of Mr Motsamai at a night-club, his attendance there, I fail to see how that could be a harassment.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, it causes you discomfort if you are involved in something which the police have an interest in and if the police are there at your place regularly.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Maybe you should find words for it, it's not harassment.

CHAIRPERSON: Not if they're spending money there, I think it does not cause you any discomfort.

ADV MEMANI: That is why Mr Chairman, I put it to him that perhaps the better word to use is monitor.

ADV DE JAGER: And if you're doing nothing wrong it couldn't be harassment either?

ADV MEMANI: I don't understand why you are asking me that question Mr Chairman, because what I put is that he was monitored, Nichos was monitored by Motsamai and I don't understand what you want me to answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now saying the security branch was monitoring the way that a night-club was run, well, a member of the security branch.

ADV MEMANI: No, Mr Chairman, I say that part of the monitoring of Nichos involved Mr Motsamai being regularly present at the night-club although he did not drink.  Obviously Mr Chairman, if the police are always present at your place of residence or business they'll see the people who go in there and see who you meet there and see who associates with you there.  And some of them might be people whom they have an interest in.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't suggested that at all, you're asking about the night-club.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.

MR VISSER: What I would like to know Mr Chairman is, which incident this refers to for which an amnesty application is made?  There's no amnesty application for attack on a night-club, monitoring or harassment of Nichos at a night-club.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, you'll recall that during cross-examination of Mr Motsamai it was suggested that Nichos had nothing to do with politics, he was just known as a businessman.
	Now Mr Erasmus, you heard Mr Serame testify, isn't it?

MR ERASMUS: ...[No English translation]

ADV MEMANI: And you heard him say that security branch harassed, used to visit Mr Nichos.

MR ERASMUS: I heard that Honourable Chair.

ADV MEMANI: And that you actually visited Nichos.

MR ERASMUS: I met Mr Nichos on a number of occasions.  Constable Kabusa had a room which he rented from Mr Nichos at his house and he was a member of the security branch and this is the room in which he committed suicide.  That is how I got to meet Mr Nichos.  The incident to which Mr Serame Molefe refers to, I don't have any knowledge of.

ADV MEMANI: You heard Mr Molefe complain, say that Nichos complained that you were harassing him.

MR ERASMUS: I heard the evidence but I don't agree with the statement Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Now for what reason would Mr Molefe lie about the presence of security branch at Mr Nichos's business?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, presence of a member of the security branch on the premises and harassment of an individual are two different things and I do not agree with the harassment.  If the members visited there, no problem with that.

ADV MEMANI: And when Mr Motsamai testified and said that he petrol bombed the house of Nichos because he was a suspected courier, it was put to him that the house was burnt because he was suspected to be involved in a ritual murder.

MR ERASMUS: I have no knowledge of that Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Did you not give those instructions to your legal representatives?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, I was not implicated in deeds of Motsamai and consequently I didn't make a statement in that regard.  And I was not asked in that regard because I was not implicated in that.
Now, did you perhaps not ask your legal representatives who instructed them that Nichos's house was burnt because of a suspected ritual murder?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, I don't even have knowledge that Mr Nichos's house had been burnt down.

ADV MEMANI: I think it was a shop yes, we're talking about.

MR ERASMUS: Or that his shop had been burnt down.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you heard Mr Serame testify that he was a former Robben Islander, he is a former Robben Islander.

MR ERASMUS: That may be so.