Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR PRIOR: Well isn't one of the most acceptable explanation in the circumstances, given the evidence of Mr De Kock, Mr Chappies Klopper and Mr Mabotha's girlfriend I understand, Evodia Ngadimeng, that he was seen at Soweto - sorry he had been assaulted severely and he had been seen at the Soweto police station.  That was in February of 1989.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I cannot explain that.

MR PRIOR: And that the reason why he was  only entered into the detention register was to allow - well the period that had elapsed was to allow the injuries to heal.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Where does one  detain somebody, where does one hide one?

MR PRIOR: Does the security branch at Soweto have another holding facility that we have not heard about?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No.  Definitely not.   Like I have told you at a stage our cells didn't work, they made it soundproof so that everybody could speak to everybody and it was out of order for a long time.  We kept all our detainees at the same place and Mr Jaloors also went as far as Pretoria but where somebody is kept at a different centre he still is being indicated in the same register.   In Mabotha's case you will see that at a stage he went to the Protea cells and then General Coetzee - he was kept at the Gen Johan Coetzee police station and then also he was detained at De Deur where he was freed and he was handed over to Mr De Kock.  So no matter where somebody is detained that is the register and that is the so-called paper trail.

MR PRIOR: Mr Klopper was also a member of the Soweto security branch?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: That is correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: Can you think of any reason why he would suggest that Mr Mabotha was severely assaulted at Marble Hall?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, that is what he also said during the De Kock trial.

MR PRIOR: In other words is there any reason why you could think him saying so?  It would appear from your submissions and your evidence that you had wanted to use Mr Mabotha as a witness.  Is that correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: You fostered a good relationship with him.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Did you ask him why he had absconded from Vlakplaas?

MR PRIOR: No, he said that he was taken from Mamelodi, that was his version.

MR PRIOR: Kidnapped or abducted.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Well did you ever ask him why he did not retuen to Vlakplaas under his own steam?   That couldn't have been very difficult for him to do.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, I never asked him because I never thought of it.

MR PRIOR: I understand from your evidence or from your submissions which are part of your evidence that you had a dilemma at some stage when you found or learnt that the Attorney-General wasn't interested in prosecuting Mrs Mandela, therefore the need to keep Mr Mabotha fell away largely, is that correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, let me tell you what the position was in that regard.  The docket was given to Advocate Von Lieres.  I then initially had written a 50 page report to Mr Von Lieres.  That was my brief, I said I would give that to him in the meantime.  I will give him a docket  because he has been waiting for it.  Mr Von Lieres then studied that report, he later indicated that because of the time factor he would hardly be able to prosecute Mrs Mandela.  I reported to the head office in Pretoria as such and they were adamant that the docket should be completed and should be delivered to Mr Von Lieres.  We then proceeded and I prepared it scientifically.   Like I have said before it wasn't finalised.  There were certain other evidence but we prepared the docket and we gave it to Mr Von Lieres.  And there it stayed.  Now I found myself in the dilemma that Mr Mabotha was detained.  Von Lieres didn't reach a decision, I couldn't get a warrant and I couldn't lie to the revision committee and tell them  that I would still like to keep him detained.  I couldn't do that and that was my dilemma.  What would I do under those circumstances. If Von Lieres turned around and said bring him to me and he wanted to see him, what would my position be?  That was the situation.   And that is also in my statement. I don't know whether that is an answer to your question.

MR PRIOR: Well it would seem that you did not know what to do with Mr Mabotha, there were no legal or lawful grounds to hold him further.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: That is true.

MR PRIOR: So you had to release him, is that correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: You decided to hand him over or to make contact with Vlakplaas again, to Col De Kock.  Is that correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you discuss that with Mr Mabotha whether he was comfortable with that arrangement?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I have discussed it with him and in the document further you will see that I also had another arrangement with him.   I said in the document if it was intolerable for him he could go to his family.

MR PRIOR: Why would it have become intolerable?  Did you suspect that he would be in some form of trouble?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: You must bear in mind that I had a condition of trust with Mr Mabotha.  His wellbeing was important to me.  I didn't know what to expect at Vlakplaas.  I didn't know what the attitude would be.

MR PRIOR: Why did you not simply sent him home and you would have had his address and you would have known where to get hold of him.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: It is perhaps easy to ask that now but at that stage I saw that as the best option and the best decision.

MR PRIOR: And you say you gave him a train fare or a train ticket, if things became intolerable he could then walk off and catch a train to Pietersburg, is that what you are saying.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: You then indicated also that at De Deur you handed him over to Mr De Kock.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: And did he seem quite happy to go with Mr De Kock?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes.  You must bear in mind that at that stage there was a good relationship with Mr Mabotha.  It is difficult to tell but one builds up a relationship with somebody, he becomes a dependant of you and he agreed to go to Vlakplaas.

MR PRIOR: Mr de Kock via his legal representative has indicated to the previous witness that the assault on Mabotha was one of the most gruesome that he has ever witnessed.  Did Mr Mabotha in this close relationship that you built up whilst he was in detention, did he ever confide in you that he was severely beaten, as Mr De Kock will later describe?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, I doubt that I asked him because when he came to me there were no signs of any assaults and I didn't ask him that.  The first time I have heard of the assault was when there was evidence by Chappies Klopper in that regard.

MR PRIOR: It appears, and I get the impression from your submissions and your evidence and your statement that you met in a car or you parked your car some distance out of De Deur and it was handed over.  De Kock arrived there in a vehicle.  Why didn't you meet at the police station?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I did go to the police station.  I was sitting in my car at the police station.

MR PRIOR: Within the precincts, the premises of the police station?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No it was next to the police station.  I mean it was within sight of the police station.

MR PRIOR: I want to just suggest to you given what we have heard so far in respect of Mr Mabotha it just seems to me highly unlikely that Mr Mabotha would have been willing to go with Mr De Kock, having been severely beaten up and assaulted some months prior.  It doesn't jell with one's understanding of human nature.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: If I had known that Mabotha was assaulted in the manner in which Mr De Kock says he was surely I wouldn't have returned him to Vlakplaas.