Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MR BERGER: Yes Chairperson.
   Do you know a Colonel Greeff?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I remember him.

MR BERGER: And Davidson?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I cannot remember him but there were three of them.

MR BERGER: And then there was a short one who liked to speak Zulu?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And his name was Du Pont?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: The Greeff that you referred to, was that not the man who was here on Friday?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No it was, no he doesn't look like him in appearance, he doesn't look like him.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did you say that he was - he appeared somebody older, the one who appeared before us?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I have no further questions.  Thank you Mr Mthembu.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: I have no questions, Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: No questions.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chair, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: No re-examination.

MS PRETORIUS: No re-examination.

MR DA SILVA: May it please you Mr Chairman?
	Mr Mthembu, a question was put to you by my learned friend Mr Berger, where it was put to you that there was an area around Kwamadala was patrolled by the Vaal Commando?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now were you aware that there might be military vehicles in the vicinity of Kwamadala which did not belong to the Vaal Commando?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: How would you differentiate between vehicles which belonged to the Vaal Commando and other military units?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The Vaal Commando people were different as far as I'm concerned.

MR DA SILVA: Different in which respects?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: They had different vehicles that were smaller, sometimes they would use that type of a vehicle.  The commando would not speak to people they would do whatever without saying anything to the people.

MR DA SILVA: Now if you had to - your co-applicants spoke of suitcases.  If you had a suitcase from a Vaal Commando and say from Lenz Military Unit, how would you know the difference between these vehicles?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: As it was mentioned you would see them even if they were inside the vehicle.

MR DA SILVA: I don't understand that Mr Mthembu, you were there, please explain to the Committee how you would know the difference between a vehicle from the Vaal Commando and for instance the Lenz Military Unit?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, these commandos and these security, these military officers, did they use different motor vehicles?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us what was the difference or are you not able to tell us?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The car that was used by the Vaal Commando was a van, smaller with seats inside, it was smaller.  The other would not talk to people, they would just come with their big vehicle with dark uniform and they would just go back to wherever, they wouldn't discuss anything with us.

MR DA SILVA: The vans that you are describing is that what is normally known as a riot bakkie?  A yellow Toyota van with perspex around the back, is that what you're talking about?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now are you saying that the Vaal Commando did not use these riot bakkies?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That's what I used to see that most of the time we would talk like workers of Iscor of different departments but these with suitcases they would not discuss anything with us.

MR DA SILVA: Now what I want to know from you, is the Vaal Commando, you've answered several questions in regard to the Vaal Commando, did they use suitcases and did they use riot bakkies or what did they use?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I have mentioned that what it looks like.  I'm going to say what Mr da Silva wants because I've already mentioned that their cars were different.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr da Silva.  Do you know who was responsible or where the suitcases came from or which unit they belonged to?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

MR DA SILVA: I'll try and shorten the proceedings Mr Mthembu, if you had a suitcase, a brown suitcase standing in front of you, my instructions are that Lenz Military Unit and Vaal Commando both used suitcases.  I want to know from you how would you differentiate them?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Mr da Silva, I'm here to apply for amnesty, I talk about something that I know.  I'll not mention anything about something that I don't know because you want me to differentiate things that you have combined yourself.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mthembu, isn't it that you can't tell the difference and if you saw a brown vehicle that looked like a suitcase you'd make the assumption it belonged to the Vaal Commando, isn't that the point?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I do not know the difference but I've already mentioned that we used to discuss with the others there was nothing knew and we would discuss with the others but there was this other group that we wouldn't discuss anything but that was not a problem to me.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I think what counsel is trying to put to you or find out from you is this, can you tell from a distance whether that motor vehicle is a Vaal Commando motor vehicle or whether it is a motor vehicle used by the military?  We know from your evidence that the other group used to come to you and you would talk to them, do you understand that?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think the question is are you in a position to make that distinction from a distance without having to talk to the people.  Do you understand the question?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I'm not in a position to tell.

MR DA SILVA: Are you in a position to say which route the Vaal Commando patrolled?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I cannot tell because the day you would see it you would only see the vehicle only at the gate, you wouldn't see where it was coming from.  You wouldn't know whether it has taken the Boulevard or coming from right inside the Iscor, so I cannot tell the difference.

MR DA SILVA: Now you gave testimony in regard to Exhibit M1, the plan, can you please look at that again?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now you drew point B which is the East Gate right at the bottom of the page?  Is that correct?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Now isn't point B the East Gate, isn't it actually off the photograph, it doesn't appear on the photograph, isn't that why you drew it at the bottom of the page?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Mr da Silva I told you that I don't know much about the map, I'm not very good in describing the map.

MR DA SILVA: What you're saying is you took a guess, you assumed point B was there and that's where you put it down and you might be incorrect?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now in regard to the plan will you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on a minute, are you saying that you made a mistake?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I've made a mistake.

MR DA SILVA: Now if you look at that same Exhibit, the plan, look on the extreme left hand side, you'll see there's an A and a B, do you see the B on the left hand side?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now if you see the point that B indicates, according to the schedule annexed to this Exhibit, that is the main gate, would you agree with that?  The main gate to Kwamadala?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I agree.

MR DA SILVA: So the point that you've indicated on that plan is A being the main gate is not the same point as B?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.