Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Correct.

MR MEYER: Well, what a coincidence that both you and Dr Farisani omitted this important piece of evidence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I just find out something, Mr Meyer, from Ms Mtanga?  Reference has been made to this statement having been given to the Human Rights Violations Committee which must have formed part of the evidence or the proceedings that took place on 4 October 1996 before the Human Rights Violations Committee.  Are you in a position to give us any information, Ms Mtanga, with regard to a written statement that was allegedly made by Rev Phoshwana prior to him giving such evidence before that Committee?

MS MTANGA: Lady Chair, I didn't have this information before Rev Phoshwana testified here today.  And I'm not in possession of such a statement.  I was only furnished with the Human Rights Violations hearings transcript.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: But I can make endeavours and see if the ...(indistinct) office can furnish us with a statement and probably fax it to us while you're sitting here.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: I will try and do so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed, Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Rev Phoshwana, I want to put it to you that you are also telling lies to this Panel when you say that your private parts were in any way injured.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: It's extremely unfortunate that the learned advocate doesn't believe.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the learned advocate is merely representing his clients.  His clients have denied that they tortured you by applying electrodes to you private parts and he's doing what advocates should do, putting these clients' versions to you and saying that it didn't take place.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  What I'm saying is that he was wrongly briefed by his clients because, what I'm saying is exactly what happened to me and I take it that the learned advocate's clients had even given him the records which the doctors made note of those scars, 25 all of them on my body.

MR MEYER: Reverend, you said that the first person you saw, I think it was on 6 January, when you were taken some office, and you remember the face of the fifth applicant, Mr Netshivale.  Is that correct?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes.  That is entering the interrogation office.

MR MEYER: Yes, and he is the one also that pulled your hair and also your pubic hair, is that correct?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: The first one who laid his hands on my head, the first one, not the only one.

MR MEYER: Yes.  And then later on, I just want to get it clear if we're referring to the same incident.  You said that you remember other people who were in this office or the room was Nesamari and John Managa and Matsena, is that correct?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes, and Mr Makgato also.

MR MEYER: Makgato?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Okay, I didn't get that.  And were they the people who were taking part in the pulling of the hair?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Because I was not yet covered, Mr Matsena and Mr Makgato and Thakalane did not pull my hair but the rest did.

CHAIRPERSON: Just mention the two names who didn't.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Who didn't is Mr Matsena, Mr Makgato and Mr Thakalane.  They are three who didn't because by that time I was not yet covered so I could see.

MR MEYER: Of the people you mentioned, only Mr Nesamari is one of the first four applicants who were involved in that, do I understand you correctly?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Wasn't your evidence that Mr Kruger was also there?  No?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Rev Phoshwana, I wonder if you can just clarify this for me.  At the beginning of your evidence, you said that Nesamari was the first to lay his hands on me.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Netshivale.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes and now you've said that, I think that you said Mtanga was the first one to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think my notes says that Mr Netshivale was the first and that other three persons mentioned he himself said that they didn't do it while he could see but the others did it including Mr Nesamari.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Why I said, Mr Nesamari, it was on the 12th.

ADV BOSMAN: Oh, are you referring to two different dates?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, that clarifies it then.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  All right, well just for the sake of completeness and I mean it's been denied already in the evidence-in-chief, but Mr Nesamari denies that he pulled your pubic hair in any event.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: I think he was denying it out of shame but that's exactly what happened.  He denied it that he even attached electrodes on my private parts on 12 January 1982.  It's a pure denial and a lie.

MR MEYER: Is it not possible that some of these - that some people were pulling the hair out of your head and some others were pulling your beard and the others were pulling your pubic hair, was that the situation?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Because there was no method that we start with the head, down to the beard and then to the puberty hair, the first person who laid his hands on my head was Mr Netshivale, then the rest followed and they pulled hair all over my body as I mentioned.
	So, it was not say 'Okay, well let's start with head, down to the beard and then to the hair.'  Puberty hair.

MR MEYER: Yes, well, were they all busy at the same time?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: They were scrambling, ja.

MR MEYER: Now isn't it possible that you are mistaken and that Mr Nesamari might have pulled your beard or the hair on your head and that someone else was pulling your pubic hair?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: I'm saying Mr Nesamari, I'm singling him out and the late general Managa for 12 January 1982, that he attached electrodes on my private parts.  That's why I'm singling him out.

MR MEYER: So, with regard to the pulling of your pubic hair ...(intervention)

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: He was part of the group.

MR MEYER: But you can't say for certain that he pulled your pubic hair?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: He did because, the people who didn't I mentioned them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what Mr Meyer's getting at, you've said there was at a stage what maybe described as a hair pulling frenzy ...(intervention)

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They were all acting at the same time, pulling hair, at the same time from your head, from your pubic parts, from your - I see you don't have a beard, from your moustache -  Did you have a beard ...(intervention)

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: I only cut them out after.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  From your beard.  What Mr Meyer is saying is, may it be so that Mr Nesamari, although he pulled your hair, that he didn't pull your pubic hair?  He himself, personally?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: That to me, I did not witness and note down who is pulling my pubic hair because they were scrambling.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You're saying that he pulled your pubic hair - you're saying he pulled your pubic hair because you're associating him with all your attackers who were pulling your hair.  You can't say specifically exactly from what part of your body he pulled hair?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: All those people I mentioned, that they did not pull my hair, only those three.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Those are the ones who didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: But the rest pulled my hair from all over my body, the head, beard and puberty hair.  They were scrambling for pulling.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no ...(intervention)

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: So there's no probability that Nesamari could not have pulled either beards or hair or my pubic hair.