Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1999-06-21

MR MOGALE: After Mr Pirie established, after Mr Pirie decided that we should start with the operation, he wanted to establish as to whether Mr Mangope was present within the ministers' complex. Because we would not be able to overthrow the government in the absence of Mr Mangope because South Africa would come in. That was his fear because he wanted Mr Mangope to be present so that we will be able to execute this operation in his presence. And fortunately, Mr Pirie was always in contact with members of the Defence Force who were working in parliament. Then after some time, he established that Mr Mangope is present. If I remember well, the person who was absent at the time was his wife.
	After that he came to us and we were the people who were responsible for securing the storage where arms were put and then again we were responsible for the security at government, other government installations. It was easy for us then he delegated a group to go to the storages. After the arms were taken out, we started at the military base, because he was afraid that the, there was a section which were in favour of Mangope. And then the, maybe they were not in favour of our operation to overthrow the government.
	We took hostage the officer in duty on that particular night. After the person was taken hostage, he came to our camp. Then he said to us we should proceed to parliament. We went out with two TUV vans. I don't remember the truck we used but I think it was a five ton. Each and every one of us was armed with the firearms and together with the ammunitions.
	We entered Geroma Building which is now the present government, the present parliamentary offices of the North West Government. Because there were others who were at the entrances there were others who joined our group. Then each and every post he instructed that one person should remain. Then we left the cars at Geroma complex then we entered the main entrance of the stadium. 
	When we entered the gate at the left-hand side there was a grass because on the left-hand side there were houses. Then we hid ourselves on the grass and then Mr Pirie instructed us that we should remain there, he'll be coming back. Because he was not trusting us that much. And there were president guards, that is those people who were the old guards within the Bophuthatswana government.
	Then he said he was going to remove the old guards because they should not disturb our operation. He left his car somewhere. Then after some time he came with all those old guards. Then he told them in the face that we as members of the Bophuthatswana Defence Force, we are coming to overthrow the government. And they were surprised but they couldn't do anything.
	After some time, he wanted to find out how many houses were there in the ministers' complex. And then he divided us into groups of six and in various groups there were six members, in other groups there were eight or seven members. It will depend on the particular house, how dangerous is that particular minister. And the house which I had to go to, the way we were divided, that house belonged to Mr Ntsime.
	Before we went to that particular house, he told us there would be a whistle before entered each and every house. Then others would check us whether there are people inside. Then immediately after that whistle, we'll start knocking. Then, if a person opens the door, we should take that person to him and then unplug the telephones. Because if we can leave the phones unplugged, one person whom we would not be able to see inside, would be able to use that phone.
	When we went to Mr Ntsime's house, then we heard the whistle, then we knocked. Then Mr Pirie explained from the beginning that when we arrived at the particular houses, we should not use the R4 rifles to open the doors. We should use the 9 mm pistols. In each particular group there should be two 9 mm pistols because there are two doors.
	Then immediately after that whistle, we started with the operation. We were not able to open the door. Then we saw a glass door, then they broke that glass, then they entered, others entered inside. I was left outside, because I had to wait for any person who would come from outside. They found that Mr Ntsime was not present, they came out with children and together with a member of the police, I don't know as to whether who was that person. We took those persons as instructed and we brought them to Ganwe, that is the place where Mr Mangope was staying.
	At Ganwe, there would be a position where the President's guards used to stay. Then all those people were brought. We put them at that particular place. Then if that person wasn't ...(indistinct) we were able to find a minister, would be taken to the stadium. Mothers and children would remain at that particular place. We waited there and there were those who were struggling with us, that is General Seleke was one of them who was brought and they were taken to the particular place. We were instructed strongly that those who belonged to the South African, the Bophuthatswanan government, Bophuthatswana Defence Force, and the police and those who were dangerous, should be well looked after.
	We stayed there until we heard a gun shot at the stadium. When we heard the gun shot at the stadium, it happened that some people came out stained with blood and we were not able to identify those and then we were afraid that we would be shot, not knowing where you are shot from.
	It happened until the time when the South African Defence Force came. At that time, I went through the gate. I was arrested on the 13th of February 1988. That is the day when I was arrested.

MR DLAVANE: Mr Mogale, so we, the Committee hears that there was that coup. The question is now, what was the intention, according to Timothy Pirie? What was the intention, what was to happen after the removal of the then government, or the then president and ministers? What was to happen thereafter?

MR MOGALE: Mr Pirie explained that there would be no other political party which was functional and the only one which was functional at that time was the Chiboke. Then they would try to negotiate with, or try to observe the activities of Chiboke as to whether it will be able to continue what Mangope did, that is killing the donkeys and oppressing people.

MR DLAVANE: Did you agree with this concept of a coup? Did you associate yourself? What happened there?

MR MOGALE: Yes, I associated myself with the coup, because what was happening, or the complaints which were prevailing at that time, I used to hear people complaining about Mangope and his government. And as I took an oath that I would protect and serve the community, I did not take an oath to protect and serve Mangope. That is why I saw that what he was doing was not in the interests of the community. Because the community was not satisfied.

MR DLAVANE: So, you will agree, being an applicant for amnesty here, that the learned judge in his judgement, I refer the Committee to page 43, was not mistaken when he said after your legal counsel had made an argument, when the learned judge said, "this accused, together with the others, acted in concert in order to arrest ministers and the President for the purposes of bringing about a fall in the government. He therefore had the necessary hostile intent which accompanied his overt acts." So you align yourself with what the judge said then?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MR DLAVANE: Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead here. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DLAVANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane. Mr Mulligan, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR MULLIGAN: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Mogale, did you only go to Minister Ntsime's house?

MR MOGALE: I only went to Mr Ntsime's house.

MR MULLIGAN: So. Do you know who went to Minister Seane's house?