Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

MR K LEBEA: I'm prepared to take an oath Chairperson, but I have a request.  I don't know as to whether my request would receive favourable response.

CHAIRPERSON: We wouldn't give a favourable response until we hear the request.  Make your request and then we shall consider your request.

MR K LEBEA: I am a sensitive person.  I'm like a  sponge psychic.  The sponge psychic is like an object which absorbs energies which are around.  I have concentrated for a long time listening to the previous applicant. I feel exhausted at this time to continue in my evidence.  I'm a little bit tired mentally.

CHAIRPERSON: If we commence at 9 tomorrow morning, would you be in a position to have recovered?

MR K LEBEA: I'll be okay Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: We only started more than an hour late this morning, so we didn't even finish 6 hours hearing time.

MR K LEBEA: I understand Chairperson but since I was released from prison, I am not able to concentrate for a long time, so it's a little bit difficult on my side.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But can't you tell us your story and nobody would question you now, but you only tell us what happened indeed, what you did and nobody would ask you a question today?

MR K LEBEA: It will confuse me because for now I'm not prepared, because my mind is not stable by what was happening, so I want to have the time to recollect my mind, then again to relieve the stress.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying what was happening?

MR K LEBEA: I mean about what was happening in this hearing.  I was listening what was happening, what was said, then I am now tired.

CHAIRPERSON: But that was not directed to you, it was directed to your co-applicant.  You haven't said a word up to now.

MR K LEBEA: I'm not speaking in regard to the questions which were directed to the former applicant, I'm just saying I'm hyper-sensitive.  My mind is a little bit loaded and I am not able to speak.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you sit down for a moment Mr Lebea.  Obviously we'll start with you.  What's your view?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I had a chat with the applicant whilst we had a break, Chairperson, but I indicated to him, I did not know at that time to be honest whether we will be starting.  I said let's look how far we're going to go with the first applicant.  He indicated that he's not in the right frame of mind.  Of course he's also been affected by his brother's, what was happening ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: My problem is the taxpayers are also not in the right frame of mind if we're wasting money like we've wasted it today.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, true, Chairperson, I agree with you 100% but my problem is that I'm not in a position to make any decision.  The Committee is there to make a decision, but my problem is that if that decision at the end of the day won't take us anywhere, it's going to prolong even the hearing.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could we make another proposition to you?  Could we start with one of the other applicants?  Application number 2, Mr Pumulo, could we start with him and see whether we could finish his evidence-in-chief?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'm in your hands, but I don't think I will be in a position now to jump to the other application and come back to this one, without finishing it.  I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's hear your colleagues on the opposite side.  What's your view, Mr Kachelhoffer?

MR KACHELHOFFER: Mr Chairperson, Mr Lebea is after all the applicant in this procedure and he's not in the same position as an accused in a trial or something.  I think he's got the responsibility where he is the applicant to assist the Committee in carrying on with this procedure.  I think it is in his interest that the matter is carrying forth.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson as to whether or not we continue with Mr Lebea, I would like to leave that in your hands as the Committee to make a decision, but in the event that the Committee wants us to proceed with the next matter, the Pumulo matter is the matter that would be ready from my side because the lawyer for the victims is here and the families have been sitting here for the whole day.

ADV SANDI: Just for information purposes.  Mr Mbandazayo, is the applicant receiving any kind of professional attendance in regard to the condition he's complaining of?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I don't want to mislead the Committee.  I did not go to that length to canvass that.  As I indicated earlier on it was that at the time I did not how far are we going to go with the first applicant.  I didn't know how - at what time will we be breaking you know, when he indicated to me that he's not right to continue himself.

ADV SANDI: You see I'm asking this question because I mean we all get tired at some stage.  I just want to know is he getting any - can I ask him Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

ADV SANDI: Mr Lebea, have you been to any professional person to get assistance for the condition you say you are in?

MR K LEBEA: I have never seen such a person outside, but inside prison I attended to them quite often, but this means I was - this doesn't mean I was mentally ill.  Truly speaking I am not mentally ill, no, what took me to them was the prison conditions and when I gave an explanation here I did not create an impression that I am sick, no.  I'm just saying I can't take it anymore.  I don't see myself in a position to talk any further.

ADV SANDI: You see I'm asking you the question because I'm personally in the same position as you.  I got up at 4 o'clock this morning.  I won't say why I had to get up at that time, but I'm just as tired as you are.  I was even thinking of asking the Chairperson that we do not proceed for the remainder of this afternoon but we simply don't have a choice, we have to proceed with these matters and dispose of them as quickly as possible.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just before, I'm not pre-empting any answer, just to facilitate.  Judge de Jager indicated that if we can take Pumo, one of the next applications, I think Chairperson I thought he was talking about Pumulo.  Well, we can take the one, I just indicated to my Learned Colleague on the other side that if the Committee agrees we can take Khumalo, we can proceed with Khumalo Chairperson.