Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-22

CHAIRPERSON: According to my notes here while you've been, just bear with me, when you were being asked questions by Ms Lockhat here, you said, and this is my note, "...all they said," you're talking about the people who you found in the red Colt, "...was let's drive immediately, there's something we have committed."  Is that right?

BEKI XABA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well who said that?  You said they said that.  Were they all reciting it like little children in primary school?

BEKI XABA: No Mr Chairman, it could have been like that you see, you see that's how we express ourselves when we talk and say they and refer to them as they, 'though it was one person.  It was singular not necessarily plural, but the person who said that was sitting at the back.  I couldn't have recognised as well as to whose voice it was, and I only heard this voice saying that.  It was not of prime importance as well to turn and see or ask as to who was saying it, but it was only one person, to cut this whole story, it was only one person.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Draht do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR DRAHT: No Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi, Mr Claassen any questions arising?

MR CLAASSEN: No questions your Honour.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

MR PADI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Xaba, that concludes your testimony.  You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Draht.

MR DRAHT: Mr Chairperson are you of the opinion that we must proceed with the rest of the applicants today?

CHAIRPERSON: This is just relating to this.  Do you have any other witnesses to call in respect of this particular incident at the Khumalo funeral?

MR DRAHT: No, there's no witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: So this is your applicant's case concerning the incident on the 23rd of January?

MR DRAHT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson we have Emily Sekonyana, that is the deceased's mother with us, and I've spoken to her and her feeling is that she opposes the amnesty application.  She was not at the scene of the incident, but I could call her just to give, but I don't know how much further it would take the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: I think on this particular application that we have before us the role played by Mr Xaba was certainly not a direct role, and, in relation to the killing, unfortunate killing of the deceased.  If you want a short adjournment just to speak to her before, but it might be more appropriate if she wants, wishes, to say something, if there is another hearing at a later stage in respect, that stage.

MS LOCKHAT: I shall inform her.

CHAIRPERSON: But if she wants to, you know we can hear her.

MS LOCKHAT: I think we should just adjourn then for.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us take a short five minute adjournment while Ms Lockhat just consults with the victim's mother.  Arguments when we come back Ms Lockhat.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson I have communicated with Ms Emily Sekonyana, and it's my instructions that she will not testify and that she will leave the matter in the hands of the Committee.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat.  Are you in a position to address us.

MR DRAHT: I'll address you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, it is clear from Mr Xaba's evidence that he was a member of a political party and also clear from the background that there had been political turmoil in that region.  Regarding the incident where Mr Sekonyana was shot.  He didn't know who was shot at the time.  He recognised Mr Mazibuko ...(intervention)

MS LOCKHAT: Excuse me Mr Chairperson.  The interpreters are not in the booths yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they ready now?

INTERPRETER: Yes, we're ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr, just for the interpreters' benefit, Mr Draht has just commenced his argument in this matter, but before he commenced it was indicated by Ms Lockhat  that the victim's mother Ms Sekonyana has decided that she will not make any submission, or make any statement, before us, and she will abide by the decision of the Committee.  Mr Draht in his argument has submitted that it is clear from the evidence that Mr Xaba was a member or supporter of the IFP and that there was at the time in question political trouble in the area concerned.  If you can just proceed from there Mr Draht.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, regarding the incident where Mr Sekonyana was shot, Mr Xaba didn't know who was shot at the time, but he recognised Mr Mazibuko at the red Colt, as being an IFP member.  He wanted to help them, being IFP members, and they informed him that they have trouble, and they requested help from him.  His motive was political.  The context in which he acted was also political.  He was later on convicted as an accessory of murder.  It's clear that he acted upon the request of Mr Mazibuko, and IFP member, and that he reconciled himself with whatever acts that members of the IFP committed.  That will be all Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you conclude, Mr Draht, so that is on the one requirement, political objective.  The other requirement is full disclosure.  Do you submit that there has been a full disclosure on the part of your client?

MR DRAHT: Mr Chairman it is my submission that, I'm sorry, Mr Chairman it is my submission that Mr Xaba disclosed everything.  There might have been a problem, as he himself indicated, with the taking of the statements.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the evidence that you're referring to where he says in the statements that somebody said we've shot or killed a person, an ANC person, whereas here he said that nothing like that was actually said.  The point put by Advocate Sigodi in questions that in the statement he said that Mr Mazibuko mentioned something about them being involved in trouble, whereas now he said no. ...(inaudible) those contradictions.

MR DRAHT: Mr Chairperson I will leave that in the Committee's hands as to what Mr Xaba testified regarding that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat do you have any submission?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson on the facts before us, it is clear that Mr Xaba was not a party to the planning and execution of the killing of Philemon Sekonyana.  It seems he was unfortunately a victim of circumstances.  He was merely a driver in the incident, and had no intention of furthering the aims and objectives of the IFP.  One of the requirements of the granting of amnesty in terms of Section 20(b) is that the act, ommission or offence to which the application relates is an act associated with a political objective committed in the course of the conflict of the past, and it is my submission that Mr Xaba did not do this by political motivations.  He was merely assisting, and on the fact presented by Mr Xaba, he was merely the driver and assisting people in getting away from a scene or an incident.  The fact that he ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: What do you say about the fact that there was political unrest, there were police and, you know, there was this big funeral and there was all this tension between the ANC and the IFP and that this whole thing arose amidst that political tension, that situation?