Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

ADV SIGODI: Will you testify in English or Xhosa or Zulu?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: For the benefit of the interpreters, in what language are you going to testify Mr Thandakubona?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I'm going to use (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I am a Xhosa who grew up around here.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm just asking you because I don't want later with a situation where there is some argument as to what precisely you said, whether you meant it or you did not mean it.  We want you to use the language that you best command and having said that we leave that to you to decide which language you want to use, but use the language that you best command to avoid problems later on.  Very well then.  Mr Tloubatla here again this applicant had made an application in respect of the murder of a security guard and likewise we will stand down his application in respect of that particular incident, we will stand it down indefinitely for the same reasons as we've already mentioned and bearing in mind again the fact that a differently constituted committee may hear his application in respect of that particular incident so we want to leave it neatly out of the present proceedings.  What are your full names?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I am Mxolisi Ernest Thandakubona.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Thandakubona is it true that you have applied for amnesty for the killing of some four boys on the 1st of August 1986 and the attempted killing of another two?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes I was present.

MR TLOUBATLA: I am going to concentrate on the events of the day, on that particular day.  It is common cause that you had a comrade by the name of Jefferson Lingani.  Is that so?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: And that his house was either damaged or burnt, whatever but that is also common cause that something had happened to his house.  Is that so?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: At what time did you know that Mr Lingani's house had been damaged?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I was sleeping with comrade Ghani (?) that day at one of the houses that used to be our hideout but the comrades knew what places were used as hideouts.  Jeff came to us, woke us up at dawn, around 3 or 4 in the morning.  He knocked at the door and we refused to wake up, we hid ourselves because we were tired and we did not want to leave at the time.  Jeff then left.  He went to other places to ask for other people.

MR TLOUBATLA: There is something that is not amusing, but sort of you know, it's attracting my attention, you keep on taking off your hat.  Did you have to leave by hiding yourselves all the time, you're talking of a hideout?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: We were leading a kind of life of hiding out because we were fleeing from the police and the UDF members.  The UDF was of course the opposite camp that was fighting us.

MR TLOUBATLA: So did your comrade Jefferson come back later and what time was that when he came back?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes Jeff did come back.  It was round about half past eight, nine o'clock.  We had just come back from buying breakfast at the shop and when we entered the gate he was just arriving himself as well.  We did not cook the breakfast, we got into the car and we went to his place to assess the damage.

MR TLOUBATLA: How many of you left that hideout of yours to go to Jefferson's place?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: It was myself, Ghani and Jeff, that was when we were going to his place.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then on your arrival at Jeff's place, who did you find there?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: When we arrived I saw people like Kabelo, Dick, Vayli was also present, Mklana as well.  Those are the people we found when we arrived.  I may have forgotten other but I am sure about these ones.  These are the ones that we found when we arrived.

MR TLOUBATLA: So it was quite a number of your comrades at Jeff's place, it was quite a sizeable number?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes there were several comrades that I found there, they were trying to help by cleaning and establish how much damage has been caused and we were guarding because we feared that the people might come back during the day.

MR TLOUBATLA: I see also, that is in page 21 that is page 1 of your application, you say on the second paragraph, the second sentence you say:  "It started when comrade Jefferson Lingani's house, who was a member of AZAPO, was petrol bombed for the second time".  In fact I think it's for the first time that we hear that the same house was petrol bombed for the second time?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Would you please refer me to the paragraph, what page is it on?  I'm referring to the paragraph that you've just read.

MR TLOUBATLA: In the bundle it's page 21 but otherwise it's page 1 of your application, the second paragraph, the second sentence.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.  I concur with what I have written here because you know Jeff was a prominent member of AZAPO, prominent leader, he was well known he could not hide himself, he was within the Soweto Eleven that was arrested during the 1976 riots and he resided in the UDF area.  The area in which he resided was predominantly UDF and that was not for the first time that he was attacked, he was attacked for the first time but nothing happened.  He reported the matter and this was for the second time that he was attacked and his house was burnt, that's when he called for help from his comrades.

MR TLOUBATLA: Before this particular incident, was Jeff's house petrol bombed, how long before this particular incident?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I would not know exactly the month but it was not something that had happened a long time ago, it was around within three months I think.  Three months had not lapsed when this second attack was launched.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right, you arrived there and then with the other comrades, what did you keep yourselves busy doing there after arriving at Jeff's place?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: We were cleaning the house, cleaning up the broken glasses and making sure that the place was clean, that is what we did at the time and guard the place so that in the event of these people coming back we would be there.

MR TLOUBATLA: Is there anything that happened during the course of the day whilst you were there that you can perhaps tell us?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes something did happen.  As we were busy cleaning and moving around people were walking past and singing and their songs were not the kind of happy songs, they were actually communicating to us at the time. The kind of songs sung and the T-shirts worn were the kind of songs and T-shirts that would identify one's political stance and therefore one would identify them as SOSCO or UDF.

MR TLOUBATLA: You heard the other co-applicants when they were testifying.  Are you saying that they just passed there, they walked past the house and then was it the end?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes they walked past singing and they came back again.  It was an up and down movement that happened several times whilst we were still there.  We ignored them.

MR TLOUBATLA: Then, except that particular incident of these people singing up and down, then what happened thereafter?