Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I told him about that.

MR LAX: Well why then did you say that the only thing that you told him was what you had told me before I mentioned the confession?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I am getting tired now.  I am getting tired.  And these things took place five years back.  I'm getting confused because of so many things that happened.  I'm serious about that.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I won't ask him any more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, I'm aware that you are getting tired, and that these things happened a long time ago.  But we also are in the hands of Ms Moloisane.  She called you here to testify to events being alluded to by her clients who are applying for amnesty.  We want to believe she would not have called you if she had not, in her consultation, exercised her mind as a lawyer whether your evidence would be relevant and would materially support the application of your comrades, Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe.  Do you understand me?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't ask you questions for the fun of asking you questions.  These questions are intended to assist us in considering these applications of your comrades, and we want to believe that you willingly came in to testify in support of their applications.  Are we correct in our belief?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you have testified earlier on that you also conducted your own investigation about the activities of Ms Ndumo and Ms Mokoena, and came to the same conclusion, that they indeed were Imidwembe.  Did I understand your evidence correct in that aspect?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.  That was my evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you, apart from conducting your own investigation, refer the matter of the two ladies to anyone within the MK structure, and to be precise, to an underground structure of the MK?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I'm asking that question, is that yesterday we heard evidence from Bonga Khumalo who was your general commander, that it was the function of the underground structure of MK to verify information regarding Imidwembe.  That was the evidence that was given before us, and he was unable to explain whether the allegations of Imidwembe pertaining to Elsie and to Hapile, whether it had been referred to the underground structure.  So you are the commander of the unit.  We now want to find out whether you were aware of this important principle that Bonga Khumalo alluded to, and said it was in fact the cornerstone of your structure, that the principle was based on logic, that the organisation did not want to act upon unverified information concerning Imidwembe.
	Now since he was unable to shed more light about this, we are now looking to you as the commander of the unit concerned to tell us whether these allegations were referred to the underground structure at all, and if so, to whom, and if not, why they were not so referred, when Mr Khumalo has made us to believe that it was an important requirement before any action be taken concerning Imidwembe.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Mr Khumalo testified to the effect that there was an under structure, and I did not know who it consisted of.  Those people were underground, they were hidden, but some people knew them, and some of us did not.

CHAIRPERSON: We appear not to be on - does he want a break?

MS THABETHE: He has just indicated that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo I am not going to be long with you.  It is really this aspect, and one very short aspect, however I can see that there is a look of fatigue on your face, and I think we'll adjourn for three minutes.  I hope that will be sufficient so that we can just have a breath of fresh air.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want you to come back tomorrow to give further evidence, lest we be tempted to take even much longer with you tomorrow, so we take a few minutes adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, Ms Moloisane, may I draw your attention to the fact that whilst the witness is being questioned, you may not speak to him.  That is the rule of thumb.  It would be unethical for you to speak to him.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair I was not speaking about the contents of the questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely because any person who sees you speaking to your witness would not know the content of your discussion, it is always wise and more than advisable for Counsel not to be near the witness who is being questioned.  You are not supposed to be near that witness because of public perception.  It is part of our public administrative law.

MS MOLOISANE: I am aware of that Madam Chair, and even in the other Courts I know it happens that way.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is not the content of the discussion, it is the perception that you are seen speaking to a witness who is being questioned, which is the crux of the problem.
	Mr Mhlongo, I will repeat what I put to you before we took a short adjournment.  Yesterday Mr Bonga Khumalo who was your general commander, advises that the cornerstone rule of your structure, which was put there for the integrity of your organisation, was that you as commanders could not act upon any information concerning allegations of persons who were referred to as Imidwembe, without verifying those allegations with your underground structures of MK.  Are you aware of that rule as a commander?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I was aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  In this regard, did you apply that rule?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I applied the rules.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom did you refer the information which you had about Ms Hapile and Ms Ndumo within the underground structures of MK?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I did not have the right to meet with the underground structure before I could meet with my commander.  My commander had contact with the underground structure, not me.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it your evidence therefore that you relayed the information to Mr Khumalo and requested him as your general commander to take it to your underground structures for verification?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I did not ask him to go to the underground structure, that was his duty.

CHAIRPERSON: You see when we questioned Mr Khumalo about whether this was done in the situation of Ms Hapile and Ms Ndumo he said he did not, he did not know whether you as a commander had done so, because it was a function of a unit commander to do the verification.  That is why I'm asking you as a unit commander, because the evidence suggested that it was not his function but that of a unit commander to refer such matters to underground structures.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: If when, if I heard Mr Khumalo well, he was saying unit commanders had the rights to issue out orders only after they've investigated that yes, these people were involved.  That's how I understood him.  Not that because I was a commander of a unit I had to meet under structure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am not concerned about how you comprehended his evidence.  I am putting to you what he said.  He said there was a need to verify information before it could be acted upon, to avoid innocent persons from being killed, merely on the say-so of someone that they were either IFP informers or passing on information to the police, and that even 'though this was an important principle it was not his function to verify, suggesting that it was the function of a unit commander to verify.  Are you saying he was wrong?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He was not wrong, he just made a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, are you in his mind to say whether he is wrong or he has made a mistake?  Was it not your function to verify?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was not my function.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying it was the function of the general commander?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.