Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-18

UNKNOWN: Let me take it slowly.  Would you agree that what he is saying here is that he accepts that there are three weapons of all the weaponry that you found on the scene, he accepts that there are three weapons that have been found back.
MR BOOYENS OBJECTS

MR BOOYENS: No, my learned friend must read the sentence properly,
"Definitely not everything or all of them had come from Vlakplaas.  As I have already said, two AK47's and a Tokarev."
So, I think what, in all fairness to Mr de Kock, I do not think that Mr de Kock says these AK's were found back, it says,
"Nie alles of enigsins ...",
so there seems to be a bit of an unclarity here.  Perhaps, my learned fried could just clear that up Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Right, if I could just respond to that Mr Chairman.  If you look at that particular paragraph, in my respectful opinion,
"... at all, from Vlakplaas...",
is the clarification by Eugene de Kock that the weapons did not come from Vlakplaas itself and he has made that clear in his affidavit.  What he is saying is that the AK47's and the Tokarev, in fact, came from security headquarters in Pretoria.  So, in my view, that is what "enigsins" means.  If you read further down the statement he says, 
"I have no idea where the other weapons came from."
So, quite clearly he is saying that he knows where the two AK47's and the Tokarev come from that he has referred to in captain Bellingan's report, he does not know where the other weaponry comes from.

CHAIRPERSON: He is not saying he knows, he is saying he has got no idea where the other weapons could have come from.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If I may say something here.  The Tokarev which they refer to there, Colonel de Kock or security headquarters gave me a Tokarev, but the Tokarev found at the scene that was not the security headquarters
Tokarev, that was the groups own Tokarev.  If I remember correctly, I also mentioned during my Section 29 hearing, the incident when our Kombi got stuck in the bush and our, the Tokarev went missing there.  That was before the shooting incident. That Tokarev was later recovered by the detectives on the scene of the crime.  So, the Tokarev found at the scene or used at the scene at the liberation fighters, that was not Vlakplaas' Tokarev.

MR HUGO: May I just clarify this aspect?  Mr de Kock received a list of all the weapons recovered and in this list mention is made of AK47's and also a Tokarev pistol.  What Mr de Kock wants to say is that he has no knowledge of two AK47's and a Tokarev or whether these were the same weapons recovered.  He cannot say that.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, I am not going to take the interpretation of that particular paragraph in Eugene de Kock's statement any further.  I think it has, to some extent, been clarified by his council.  I still, though, want to deal with the question of the two AK47's themselves.  	Now, Captain Bellingan, you were aware that the AK47's that were found there were, in fact, brought to your attention by Eric Maluleka.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: It would also appear to be the case that he brought those weapons to the scene, not so?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.  As I have testified earlier, I asked the, those askaris to, because there was a weeks lapse of time and we did not quite know how to plan, but they must just keep control of the weaponry and keep control of the vehicles, so that if it came to an arrest at the intersection and there was a shoot-out, that we can minimise it.  That is why I said they must keep the weapons in their control and possession.  So yes, it was Eric's.

UNKNOWN: Now, you would agree that by those photographs having been included in the investigating docket in the matter, it creates the impression that those were weapons found with the deceased?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot comment on the way in which the investigation was done or the inquest, but it may be, but I cannot comment.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that, to an extent, that would be a misleading impression?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It could possibly be.  It depends on what your perspective of the investigation is.  I did not think of it in those terms.

UNKNOWN: If I, seeing that we are with the weapons, if I can just ask the Committees indulgence.  There is a section on the video that I would like to refer to.  I hope it is not going to take a whole lot of time.  It is a section where the cameraman seems to be recording that it is now 07H56.  If anybody knows exactly where that is on the video, if we could just get someone to operate the video, I would like to ask Captain Bellingan some question in relation to that.
	If I can just indicate to our assistant, it is approximately four and a half minutes into that video.  It is, if you could rewind it a little bit further back, it is much further back than that.  Ja, it is right at the beginning.  No, it is right at the beginning, it is further than that.  
	If I can just ask one or two questions in the meanwhile, Mr Chairperson, while the ...  Right, can you fast forward that?  Sorry, we, sorry, Mr Chairperson, I am not sure if this is the same video.  It is right at the beginning and I am not sure if the video has been rewound right to the beginning.  This, we seem to be right at the end again.  I am terribly sorry to ...  
	If I can just ask two questions in the meanwhile with the permission of the Chairperson.  Mr Bellingan, you remember, you recall on the video that there is talk by the cameraman at about 07H56 that there are still shots being fired in the bush.  Am I correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I think I heard that.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall that at both of the trials in this matter there was no evidence of any other shooting taking place in the bush apart from the individuals that are referred to in the plan at points S and at points Q?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is the bushy area there.

UNKNOWN: Correct and do you recall that at the trials of these, this particular matter, the two trials in this particular matter, it was evident that the only shooting which took place in the bush was the shooting in respect of these two individuals?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Chairperson, I cannot recall that, but I did hear and I think I read somewhere, perhaps, when I or read through the record of the inquest, that somebody had said that they had shot a dog.  Somebody had shot a dog in the area.  I was not there so I cannot comment.

UNKNOWN: The suggestion was not that there was a fuselage of shots fired at the dog, not so Mr Bellingan?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I heard that afterwards.  I also looked at the video afterwards and I do not know where these shots came from.  I cannot comment.

UNKNOWN: You see, I want to put it to you, Mr Bellingan, that the shooting that is referred to at 07H56 on that video is, in fact, the shooting of the deceased who are at points S and at points Q on the diagram.  Can you dispute that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot comment on that, I was not there, I did not see that shoot out.  I do not know whether that was the case of the dog being shot or whether it was the case of the deceased being shot.  So, Mr Williams must actually ask the person who is responsible for that incident, let him testify.  I was not in the bush involved in that particular shooting at the time.

UNKNOWN: Your Worship, we are not getting the assistance of the video here, so I am going to move onto another point in the meanwhile and perhaps we can come back to that issue of the Tokarev again.
	In your amnesty application, Captain Bellingan, you refer to an incident involving Bryan Ingulungu, it is your first amnesty application.  I am not going to ask you to deal with the merits, I just want to know what dates we are talking about in respect of that incident in your first amnesty application.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: You want to know which date Bryan Ingulungu was shot?

UNKNOWN: Yes, more or less.