Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

MS KHUTWANE: He was a detective at the time.  I  asked what am I wanted for, he said he doesn't know.  I also asked him is it  I who is wanted - he said yes.  I nearly called my youngest son, but I was hesitant and then I felt that no he should be left behind.  
 When I got into one of the offices, I would that it was a huge crowd of the police - the police, the soldiers, there was a commotion, I didn't understand what was taking place here.  Then I was taken to one of the offices - we went down the passage, again in one of the offices, there were so many policeman and then I was informed that one of the CID's was a karate man.  I asked Freddie again, what is going on and then he always said he doesn't know anything.
 I  was asked who am I and I gave them my particulars, so one of them said ja, we have got you.  I was ordered to sit down, I really took a seat and I was shivering.   I have never seen such a big crowd of white persons.  You could see that this was a chair which was swinging, one of the policeman asked me where were you last night, I informed them that no I was at home and then he started shooting at me, stating that I was a liar.  I insisted that I was at home and then he asked me didn't you attend one of the meetings which was held at the hall.  I said yes I did and then what  happened, I informed them that I went back to town and then I came back later on.
 When I was about to - to give a response to one of the questions, the other one said I am spoggerig - they kept on interrogating me for hours on end.  I was responding to their - all the questions.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What were they asking about?

MS KHUTWANE: They insisted that I was telling lies, so I must stay, tell them who burnt the bar who was belonging to the Municipality - they also wanted to know the details  about  what was discussed at the meeting.  They even asked what Mr [indistinct] said about the State of Emergency.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Who was this [indistinct]

MS KHUTWANE: Mr [indistinct] was one of the committee members of the Secondary School - because he was giving orders to the children that they should please - he advises them that they should stop going around at night, because the State of Emergency was going to be implemented.  They were asking me a lot of questions and they were so rude towards me.
 I was getting tired about all this and then I ended up keeping quite and not responding to any of them.  One of the white men, he had a fur coat on and he was having long beard, he said to me I must go to another office, which was outside, he said he wanted me to talk just - we should talk as mature people and then he continued with the interrogation again, we repeated the same story again.  And then there was one young boy, I don't know whether it was one of the students here at the Drosdy - he said you have been talking a lot to this person and he is - he doesn't want to speak the truth.  They repeatedly asked me the same questions and then he slapped me slightly on the cheek.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Was he this young boy?

MS KHUTWANE: Yes it  was a white young boy.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Was he in uniform?

MS KHUTWANE: No he was in private but when he looked, the shirt that he put on, it looked like those of the policemen.  So I kept quite also because he was slapping me.  He said speak you bitch, I just kept on staring at him.
He grabbed me by the throat and then slapped me hard on the face.  And then we fought.  It was an exchange of blows and I was very angry because he was just -he could be as old as one of my children.
 When the fight continued, you could hear that there was somebody coming along and then they were ridiculing me and then saying I am a John Tait and a  Gerrie Coetzee the boxers.  At the end I could see that they were also embarrassed because some of the black detectives came in.  My shirt was in tatters and then one of them said are you fighting back you kaffer and then they kept on insulting me. 
 As I was still here, there were some young children who were brought in, who were crying.  They were screaming and cries and then there was one child who was staying at Africa.  They continued interrogating me for hours.  About 2 pm the two white men came in the office -they called me and then I followed them to one of the offices and then they - again they took me out of the office.  When we were outside I could see one yellow police van.
 During that period, they took one of the handcuffs and then connected me to one of the handles of the door of the car.  Then I was ordered to come inside.  We were driving back to the location and you can see that - as you entered the township you could see that there were so many police vans and big hippos and then I had to alight from the car, I was suppose to get inside the hippo again and you could see that there were a lot of soldiers around.  
 There was one detective who is [indistinct] he was informed that he should escort me so that I  can identify the place.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Were you still in handcuffs?

MS KHUTWANE: No, so they have taken the handcuffs and then put me into the hippo with one of the soldiers.  So they handcuffed me again  and with my hands at my back, they put leg irons my legs.  They weren't - we went down the Africa road, and then we reached my place.    When we got there - we could find that there were still a lot of policemen around my place.  You would think that a male person was arrested.
 The place - all the people were curious now because the whole area next to my place was infested by the police.  At the end they took off the iron legs - the leg irons.  When they got inside, they were searching.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What were they looking for?

MS KHUTWANE: They said they were looking for something which I didn't know.  One of the policeman said to me they have used - they use sand to make petrol bombs so they started insulting me again.  They kept on searching and then they stated that they were looking for weapons at my place.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Excuse me mamma - can you please tell me what did they do to you.

MS KHUTWANE: I can just explain that they were just searching at this period and they were going at the backyard and searching the premises and they were tearing the ceiling down.  One of the kommandant said no the ANC members would sue do - do not destroy his property and damage anything here -then I was arrested and detained again.
 Loggenbach who called Lucas, arrested me and he said I must give the statement.  They said if I defy them I will be detained for years and I will never get out of prison again - so I didn't - I said I didn't care they can do whatever they liked - I was arrested and I was detained again.  I was alone in the cell and you could see that I was really in the solitary confinement.  I was concerned about my child because he was - I left her whilst I was taken to those offices.  So I didn't know where they have taken him to.  There was  a lot of noise, you couldn't sleep very well and then you could hear two of the policemen who were communicating to each other.
 So I was afraid but at the same time I was having the hope that they were going to take me back home.  One of them called me and said - called my name - when I was about to take my baggage they said no I must leave it behind.  So we went through the same passage which I walked through during the day.  When we were up the stairs I was taken down again and I was ordered to board this hippo.  I had to get on and then they started driving the hippo away.
 We went down the High Street over the bridge and we went through Rawsonville - you could see a [indistinct] just nearer.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What were they doing to do as you are here?