Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I arrived there and they told me - I cannot remember the name, just don't ask me the names because then you'll never get an answer, they told me to sit at a specific spot and that cars will come and taxis will come and I had to remain at that specific spot.

MR LAX: In your statement here you say it was Church Street in Windhoek.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that's the main street, if I'm correct.

MR LAX: I'm not sure that it was the main street, because you couldn't find the place.  You'd think that you'd easily find a main street.

ISGAK HARDIEN: It was the street where the hotel was.  I think that was in the main street.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, you said you didn't got to school, can you read and write?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you capable of seeing a registration number of a vehicle and writing it down?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You can do that, although you can't ...

ISGAK HARDIEN: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me.  Were you writing registration numbers of each and every car, or were you looking for cars with South African registration numbers?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: You see in your statement you say that you were given registration numbers to go and find certain vehicles, now that's quite different to what you're telling us now.  Has someone read this statement to you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Nobody did.

MR LAX: Well I think we should give you an opportunity to refresh your memory, to read this statement, because otherwise your evidence is going to be completely mixed up.

MR RHEEDE: Mr Chairperson, I specifically did not read any statements to Mr Hardien.  If the Commission requests this, I will.  I did not want to do it because I did not want to create certain ideas in his mind which will be disputed at a later stage.  I wanted him to testify on his own memory and I realise it happened a long time ago, but because of that and the things that have been said, I did not want to read the statements to him that he lied about before and will now be stated as the truth.  If the Commission however thinks that it's wise to do it, I will do it.

MR LAX: Well let's just ask this question, did you lie in these statements?

ISGAK HARDIEN: In which statements?

CHAIRPERSON: The one that was made in Secunda.

MR LAX: The one that was made when you were in detention.  You made a number in detention, but there was a final one that was made that was signed at Secunda.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Exactly.

MR LAX: And in that statement you say well you did lie before but now you want to tell the full truth, because you realise it's better to come clean and just tell the truth.  Did you tell the truth in that statement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR LAX: Alright.  And then in the interview with our staff, our Investigation Team, Mr Khoisan and Mr Petersen, do you remember you had an interview with them in August 1997?  Zenzile Khoisan and Deon Petersen, from our office.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I can remember the name Zenzile.

MR LAX: And he sat with you, presumably in a room somewhere with a tape recorder and he asked you a whole lot of questions which were recorded and your answers were recorded.

ISGAK HARDIEN: But he did not tell me that it was recorded, was being record.  He arrived there and I chased him away because I told him I trust no-one and I believe no-one and at a later stage he arrived again and he showed me a name of somebody, of who he was.  I've chased him away about three times from my house, because he was there more than once.

MR LAX: Well this seemed to be a very long discussion because it's goes for literally 30 pages of typing and there are a whole lot of questions and answers here that are recorded.  You don't remember that at all?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I recall that I spoke to him and I just wanted him to leave.  I told him anything so that I can get rid of him, because I didn't trust anyone.

MR LAX: So you lied to him as well?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I told him - he can come and testify here, I told him: "It's a lot of shit this, I do not want you here, because I cannot trust you, you come here with different people every time."

MR LAX: Well then we may as well proceed on this basis.

MS COLERIDGE: Right.  Now you were in South West Africa, you had to take down registration numbers, were you tasked to commit arson, to slash people's tyres?  Were you told to do that as well, Mr Hardien?

ISGAK HARDIEN: They told me to make friends and I can make friends quite easily, people in the area who can show me around, and I became in touch with the people who lived there.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long were you in South West Africa?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall if it was a week or a week or two, or three.  I cannot really say.

MR LAX: And how many people did you befriend?

ISGAK HARDIEN: A lot of them.

MR LAX: A lot?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: Five, ten?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say exactly but there were the people I met at a friend of mine from the Cape, I met a lot of people in the night-clubs, if they hear you're from the Cape, you make a lot of new friends quite easily.

MR LAX: And you also had money?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: And why did you make friends, what was the purpose?

ISGAK HARDIEN: They knew the place, they know it better than I do, they can go and show certain areas to me and I told at a certain stage kombis will come and where will they meet.  I do not know the place, so I had to make use of people there to show where's this street, where's this place, where's that place.  Otherwise I wouldn't have known where these places were.

MR LAX: Well did they take you to these places and show you where these kombis were?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, they showed me where the meetings were going to be held, they told me in this street the taxis will come through and the cars will come through or pass through this street.  I think it was probably because of the elections that was going on there.

MR LAX: What organisations were you monitoring?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, to tell you the truth, I do not know or I cannot remember.

MS COLERIDGE: You said you met a friend there as well that assisted you in taking down registration numbers and so forth, is that right?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, he's from the Cape, he's got a business there.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you meet him in the Cape, or did you meet him in South West Africa?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I met him in South West.

MS COLERIDGE: And he wrote down registration numbers of people, do you know whose registration numbers he wrote down for you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I did not hear that question, can you just repeat it.

MS COLERIDGE: In your statement you said this one Coloured man that helped you, he also assisted you in getting registration numbers of cars and so forth, can you remember that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And that you gave this to Mr Slang van Zyl, remember that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did Mr Slang van Zyl tell you?  Where did you meet him at this stage?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I think I phoned him.  I do not think I met him, I think I phoned him.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did you tell him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I told him I got the registration numbers that he wanted.

MS COLERIDGE: And then?  Did he tell you to come back to Cape Town?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Really I cannot recall if I was supposed to stay or come back, I cannot remember, but I did not stay there for very long.  I cannot remember if he told me to come back or not.

MR LAX: Well how was it that you came back?  Did your money run out and then you decided to come home?  Or did you have a discussion with him and he said: "That you for the numbers, bring them to me at a certain place", or ...?