Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I cannot dispute that. Because as we were moving we did not move a long distance before we got there.

MR DUKADA: Yes now if you cannot dispute that will you tell the Committee what actually took place after Ndondo had climbed into the minibus?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: After he entered the kombi and having closed the door it is then Bra Mos asked Dandala to take his ID out and show him. Which he did and showed. After that Bra Mos proceeded talking to the deceased that there is something he wants discussed with him. After that Thandi who was next to Bra Mos turned around and faced the deceased asking him as to whether he, the deceased still remembered the female. After the deceased saw the lady that is when the deceased became panicky and tried to escape through the window. As he was trying to escape through the window. As he was trying to escape through the window we tried to grab him because his upper body was outside and we could only hold his legs. At that time the car was in motion but it was not fast. We held him tight but all of the upper body was outside. At the time he was struggling until he slipped from our hands and fell out. That is when Bra Mos stopped the car and Bra Mos jumped out of the car and tried to chase him. At the time I too tried to open my door from the outside as it was not able to open from the inside and followed Bra Mos while Bra Mos was still shooting.

MR DUKADA: Mr Shabalala I didn't want to interrupt you. I am not interested about that stage. Mr Dandala's evidence is that from the premises where Batandwa was fetched to the police station, that is before you could even reach the spot where he was shot and killed the distance is about half a kilometre. Now what I want to find out what was being discussed? Because according to the evidence of Dandala the production of the police certificate by him was after you had left the police station next to Nxala prison. Now what I am trying to ask from you what was being discussed the distance of this half a kilometre between the residence of Ndondo and the police station?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: There was no discussion that we had with him except to ask for Dandala to produce the certificate. At that time the car is in motion. Dandala issuing that ID, the car is in motion. There was no discussion of any sort. A discussion according to Bra Mos was supposed to take place later but the car is in motion all the time. When Shosha turned back and said: "Do you still remember me?"  The car is in motion all of there. And he then tried to escape. No discussion took place. Not even a small one.

MR DUKADA: Now, now Mr Shabalala I do understand. I know the incident took place a long time ago. But let me repeat. According to Dandala the distance from the place where Ndondo was fetched to the police station was about half a kilometre and from the police station to the spot where he was killed the distance of about 150 metres. Do you get the point? Now (...intervention)

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I hear you but there was no discussion. There was no discussion. No discussion took place.

MR DUKADA: Are you saying for about half a kilometre nothing was discussed between yourselves and Ndondo?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that is the input of his answer.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. So for the distance of about half a kilometre you remained quiet until the stage that Bra Mos called upon you to furnish the police certificate?

CHAIRPERSON: You see the difficulty Mr Dukada is that you are putting to this witness as a fact that the evidence of Dandala. He does not know the area and is not in a position to indicate how long that distance was. All he is saying as far as he recalls is that as the kombi was moving you know Bra Mos introduced himself as the police officer, asked Dandala to produce his appointment certificate which was done. And then Shosha turned back and said: "Do you still remember me?" That is all that happened.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Let me just put (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand your difficulty but unfortunately I don't think you can take it any further.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman I take the point. Surely Mr Shabalala before Batandwa escaped from the minibus there was an argument. Do you agree with me?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No there was no squabble or such misunderstandings as far as I am concerned.

MR DUKADA: In your statement at page 75 of the bundle I just will render and English translation of what I want to ask you. You say after Shosha had identified herself to Ndondo and you say in your statement
"Batandwa got a fright and jumped out and asked what was going on now."
You see this sentence there can you just read it in Afrikaans without wasting time. Page 75 the second paragraph and it should be the second sentence of this sentence.
"Batandwa got a fright, jumped up and asked what is going on now?"
Do you see that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can see there that is what happened that there was an argument or a quarrel there was none. I dispute that there was a quarrel or an argument in the car. No such thing occurred.

MR DUKADA: Yes Sir but what I am saying is that he demanded to know what was happening. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct. At that time he was jumping we could not wait, we did not wait.

MR DUKADA: Now if you wanted to facilitate the abduction do you not think it was wise for you to simply handcuff him to frustrate any possible resistance like running away?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: You see the time was too short before we could tell him. Even if we could do that the time was too short for us to try and handcuff him.

MR DUKADA: No just before you could even move the vehicle after he had climbed in was it not wise for you if at all you wanted to abduct him, I mean if you wanted to kill him was it not more appropriate to handcuff him to frustrate any possible resistance?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: What I can say is that the car was being driven away by the captain and he was then ordering the policeman we were moving with that he must introduce himself to this man. Before we could do any other thing we had to tell him that we are these people. Because after that, after he had introduced himself it happened that he faced Shosha and after that he went out, tried to run away.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabalala if you can just be careful not to bang the thing. It is very sensitive.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. That is precisely my question Mr Shabalala was it not in order to frustrate any possible escape by Ndondo, to avoid any unnecessary shooting and chasing him was it not more appropriate in the circumstances to handcuff him before you could even drive away from his home?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The car was already in motion and Bra Mos had already started driving. And during the time he was introduced that we are policemen and all of that during that time the car was in motion because after he entered the car there was no time to wait and to go on. We just proceeded with him.

MR DUKADA: Now don't you find it strange Mr Shabalala that the very dangerous person you have described, a terrorist you went to his house, you don't conduct any search. You don't search his body. He climbed into the vehicle and thirdly you don't handcuff him at all. Don't you find that you are very, very careless if at all? I should say you were careless.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can say it is as it has happened because it is the captain who drove off. He would have been the one to tell us that we must search and so on. That could not then happen.

MR DUKADA: And the obvious question is that if he had been handcuffed definitely he would not have escaped at all. Do you agree with me?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes he would not have been able to escape.