Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

LALOO CHIBA: No, they are quite okay, I'm sorry, they are quite okay.
 I think time is passing, I think I will move rather quickly now.
 We were then brought to the magistrate.  We were charged with sabotage.  Our trials were separated. Comrade Viji Vania, Iglis and Abdulla Jassat actually were - their trial was separated from ours because they had been arrested on site.  They were sentenced to 10 years imprisonment.
 Abdulla Jassat and I were then detained; charges were withdrawn against us. We were detained under the 90 day detention law, which had just come into effect.  We were
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placed in Marshall Square in solitary confinement.  
 At the time of - when the time came for my release, a date in August, I was approached by Lieut Van Wyk who said that they were prepared to release me, they wouldn't re-extend my detention, on condition that I did not lay charges against the police for having tortured me when I was arrested. I had to take a decision on the spot. I decided that I would agree to that condition, but upon release I would refer the matter to my organisation for guidance.
 When I was released I referred the matter to my organisation and my organisation instructed me to lay charges against the Police, which I did, through one of my comrades, a relative who was an attorney.
 Now after I was released, immediately after I was released, a few days later, the great escape had taken place, in which Arthur Goldreich, Harold Wolpe, Abdullah Jassat and Mosi Moola had escaped from Marshall Square.   As a result of that escape, I was once again asked to go underground and I was underground for a period of about three months.  
 As you know, by this time, I think it is in July, that the Rivonia arrests had taken place.  On the 11th of July, Comrade Kathradu just reminds me of that, on the 11th of July, Rivonia arrests had taken place, and the national high command had been smashed.   There was only one survivor, and that was Comrade Wilton Mkwai whom the police were looking for very desperately.
 It was during this period when I was underground that Comrade Wilton Mkwai approached me.  The national high command had to be reconstituted.  I was asked to serve on that body and I served on the second national high command 
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until my second arrest in July 1964.
 We carried out various acts of sabotage.  We carried on the campaign.  Of course only at this time we were now directing the campaign on a national scale.  I think it was in July 1964 that while I was once again arrested.  
 Among others who were arrested at this stage, were Babela Saloojee, Paul Joseph, Mac Maharaj, Steve Naidoo and Amien Kadji.
 I was arrested at home. I think it was on a Monday morning and the person who arrested me was Maj Brits from the Railway Police.  I tried to escape from the back but was unsuccessful, because the back was also blocked off. I was taken to Greys Building, on the 6th or 7th floor.
 I entered the room. I found, amongst others, Lieut Van Wyk and Rooi Koos Swanepoel.  I was assured that unlike the previous time they won't even lay a finger on me.  What they did was, they took a foolscap sheet of paper, A4 size, they put it on the floor and they asked me to stand on that. They said that I was not allowed to move off from that sheet of paper.  
 I tried to work out what their strategy was.  Previously when I was arrested they had assaulted me very badly.  They had tortured me with electric shocks and they had - I did not answer any questions.  This time the idea was that I should be kept standing for many, many hours without sleep.  I stood there from about nine o'clock on Monday morning until Wednesday early in the evening, late in the afternoon.  That was a period of approximately 58 to 60 hours without sleep. 
 Fortunately, once again, I did not answer any questions.  But what they really wanted to know, was where 
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was Wilton Mkwai.  Comrade Wilton Mkwai who was on the first national high command.  They wanted him very badly.
 I was then booked in at the Langlaagte police station under the 90 day detention law.  That period was once again extended, during which period Comrade Wilton Mkwai had been arrested and we were then transferred to Pretoria Central in Pretoria Central Prison.  
 It was here that I had heard that Comrade Babela Salooji had been killed. ... (Pause) ...
 Anyway, we were charged.  We appeared in the Rand Supreme Court, five of us, Comrade Wilton Mkwai accused No 1, Dave Kitching accused No 2, myself accused No 3, John Matthews accused No 4 and Comrade Mac Maharaj - currently the Minister of Transport - accused No 5.
 The trial was described as little Rivonia.  We were found guilty of sabotage.  We were found guilty on various counts of sabotage.   Actually 58 counts of sabotage and we were sentenced to various terms of imprisonment.
 Comrade Wilton Mkwai was sent to life imprisonment, Dave to 20 years, myself 18 years, John Matthews 15 years and Comrade Mac Maharaj to 12 years.
 We were taken to the local prison and from there Comrade Mac Maharaj and myself were taken to Robben Island.  I served my sentence, my 18 years sentence on Robben Island.
 I was released in December 1982.   I have been involved ... (END OF TAPE 1 - SIDE A).
 ... I was once again detained during the state of emergency.  I was in detention for seven and a half months, during which time I must stress that I was neither tortured nor assaulted.  I came out in 1986 - there was a twilight period between the two states of emergency and the 
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leadership of the United Democratic Front, who instructed me once again to go underground. I went underground and emerged in January 1987 to try to lead a normal life.
 That actually is my brief story.  Thank you very much.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much.  I am just going to take you back to a few issues, just for clarity.  We have had the evidence of Abdulla Jassat, and he was quite detailed, in fact, about his own torture.  He detailed the question the wet bag treatment and it seems that that was quite common. It was done to you as well.
 But he also described a particular form of torture where you were held by two policemen and dropped by the one standing in front of a window and then the other person grabbed the other leg.  For me it seems that it would point to the fact of how a number of people were killed, in falling from different floors.  
 I wonder with you, was that done to you as well?

LALOO CHIBA: Thank you.  No, that was not done to me.  I know that Comrade Abdulla Jassat was very, very severely tortured. It had been done to him. I wasn't an eye witness to that, but that he described to me, he described that to me later. But I want to state this, that he was so severely tortured that up to today he suffers from epileptic fits, if I remember correctly, and he is unable to lead a normal life. I have witnessed, I have seen that myself.

YASMINE SOOKA: The other issue which you spoke about and I think you say you feel a deep sense of shame.  It is a very difficult issue to deal with, because quite frankly, I think the first instruction for a cadre is that he doesn't disclose the information that is being sought from him.  You have succeeded in doing that.  One wonders at the courage
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that you portray here and yet, you say you still live with a sense of shame. I think that all of us have a great admiration, in fact, for the fact that through all of this you have emerged with your own humanity and unscathed. That was the one point that I wanted to make.
 You also talk in your evidence about being betrayed, and the fact that someone turned State witness against you.  This is at the time when the second high command of Umkhonto was established.  Could you tell us who the person was.