Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-13

CHAIRPERSON: For the record I'm Judge Pillay.  I'm going to ask my colleagues to just announce themselves for the purposes of the record.

ADV SIGODI: Adv Sigodi from the Port Elizabeth Bar.

DR TSOTSI: Dr Tsotsi and attorney at Port Elizabeth.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please announce your names?

MR MOTEPE: Adv Motepe from the Pretoria Bar.

MS THABETE: Thabile Thabete, Evidence Leader, TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, I understand that you're appearing for the first two applicants today.

MR MOTEPE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They are different matters though.

MR MOTEPE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So which one are you going to deal with first?

MR MOTEPE: The matter of Zakhele Simelane.

CHAIRPERSON: We will complete the evidence in that case and then move on to the other one.  Is that what you plan to do?

MR MOTEPE: I'm in the Committee's hands, but I thought we would finish with this one and then go to the next.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, we'll do it that way.

MR MOTEPE: As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR MOTEPE: Just bear with me, the applicant is having problems.

CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed.

MR MOTEPE: Committee Members, as already discussed in the chambers, what we intend doing is to hand in the affidavit that has already been prepared, the supplementary affidavit.  I don't know at this stage if the Committee would like me to read it into the record.  As I have already indicated, the application by the applicant is detailed, it gives all the necessary information that we require.  The supplementary affidavit was just to add where, especially on the question of instructions by commanders.  I don't know if the Committee would like me to read any of this into the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, Mr Simelane, which language would you prefer to use?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated.  Yes Mr Motepe, you were saying?

MR MOTEPE: I was saying that I don't know at this stage whether the Committee would like me to read the supplementary affidavit into the record or is it not necessary?

CHAIRPERSON: No, we can all read, so you don't need to do that.

MR MOTEPE: Okay.  We do not have anything to add on the information that we have, that the Committee has before it.  As I've already indicated, the application is detailed, all the information is in there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Simelane, have you heard what your advocate has said to us about your testimony?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Yes, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware of the contents firstly, of your application?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you confirm the contents?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware of the contents of the affidavit that supplements that application?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other questions that you wish to raise with the witness, Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: No, there's no question on my side.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETE: I do have questions, Chair.
	Mr Simelane, you have given evidence that, or your evidence says that you were an SDU member, is that correct?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Under which area were you operating?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Zone 5.

MS THABETE: Where?  Whereabouts in Zone 5?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Katlehong.

MS THABETE: And can you briefly explain the structure of your SDU in Katlehong, from the commander right down to the last, how many members you were, who was your commander, how you used to operate. - just briefly.

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Let me start off with the first one.  As I was a member of the SDU we were divided into cells and sometimes there would be 10 to 15 people within a cell and each cell had a commander and there was an area commander as well as a central commander.

MS THABETE: Before committing the operation that you've applied for amnesty for, what other activities did you used to do as SDUs in Katlehong, or what other activities were you involved in?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: I would say that I was patrolling at night, patrolling with other members of the SDU's.  Those are the activities in which I was involved.

MS THABETE: Coming to the first robbery you spoke about, where you highjacked a car to go and fetch material, what was going to be done with the material?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: The material was to be used.  I would say there were firearms involved as part of the material and these were to be used in protecting ourselves.

MS THABETE: Do you have information as to who supplied that material that you were going to fetch?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: I would not be in the position to say because we would be given an address to say we should go to Secunda at a particular address to fetch the material.

MS THABETE: And who gave you that address?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Manyala, our central commander.

MS THABETE: And what position did he hold in the ANC or what authority  did he have besides being a commander?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: I would not know, I just knew that he is the one who was liaising with the ANC as a central commander.

MS THABETE: So are you saying you don't know whether was a member of any ANC or not?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: I can say he was a member of the ANC, because all the approvals came from the ANC.

MS THABETE: Can you explain what you were going to do with the self-made weapons that were going to be made from this material?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Would you please repeat the question.

MS THABETE: Can you explain how you were going to use the weapons, or rather what the weapons that you were going to make were going to be used for?  Remember you said you were going to fetch material to be used to make home-made weapons, so my question to you is what were those weapons going to be used for?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Let me start off by saying that the situation at Katlehong was terrible, we were under attack most of the time, we were not in the position to protect ourselves under Inkatha's attack.  They were being assisted by the Security Forces.  We wanted to have our own weapons and we had to make our own home-made guns with which we would be in the position to protect ourselves.

MS THABETE: Sorry, I don't know whether I missed - who used to attack you?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Inkatha.

MS THABETE: On page 17 of the bundle, in your statement you say you were fetched and taken to the centre point at Khumalo where you met with other comrades.  Who fetched you?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: On which date may I ask?

MS THABETE: 6th of December '91.

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Not 16?

MS THABETE: Sorry, 16th, yes.

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: It was a Tuesday(?) and we had gone to a rally and on coming back I went out to see my girlfriend and on coming back from my girlfriend I received a message to the effect that comrades had come to say I was being sought at the centre point and I had to avail myself there at 7 o'clock, which I did.

MS THABETE: So you were not - were you fetch by someone to the centre point, or you went there
yourself?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: As I have indicated, people came to pick me up to say we should go to centre point.  I was not there at the moment.

MS THABETE: Still on the first operation, when you committed the first operation of stealing the vehicle, how many were you?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: ...(no English interpretation)

MS THABETE: How many were you?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: There were four of us.

MS THABETE: Besides Mlungisele Lindabane(?) that you've mentioned, who are the other two that you were with?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Comrade Vincent as well as comrade Mpigelele.

MS THABETE: Where are they right now?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: I would not say.  What I heard is that one of them has since passed away at Dekule, following the 1993 violence and I don't know where the other one is.