Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-15

MS JELAL: Sir, I've spoken to Ms Nkwanyana this morning, okay, and she seems rather afraid of you due to the fact that she was and you are aware of the fact, that she was the main State witness at your trial.  Do you hold any grudge against her and can you in any way say that you are sorry for actually frightening her and that in the event of you being granted amnesty and released, that you would not in any way harm her?

MR KHUZWAYO: I would like to tell her that she doesn't need to be scared.  Maybe the reason that she's scared is because of what she experienced, but the reason we did that was because we were trying to restore peace in that area.  We were only looking for the IFP men because they were the ones who were attacking females and children because they said they were ANC, but we were not actually attacking females and children.

MS JELAL: So are we then to take it that you apologise for the fear and that you hold no grudge against her giving testimony against you?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I have no grudges, any grudges about what happened because I think she only related to what she saw.  Something that happened in front of her eyes.

MS JELAL: Sir, who did you take orders from?  Who was directly responsible for giving you your orders, or your instructions to carry out these attacks?

MR KHUZWAYO: As I've already explained before that Shadrack gave me a list of people whom we were supposed to attack because he was a community member in that area and he was also an ANC member.

MS JELAL: Sir, then I refer to page 25 of the bundle specifically paragraph 11(b).  It actually follows from 11(a) and reads
"Was/were the act/s, omission/s or offence/s committed in the execution of an order of/on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement, state department or security force concerned?"
Okay and your answer there was also a bit vague but I will focus on (b).  (B) the question that, following paragraph 11(a):
"If so, state particulars of such order or approval, the date thereof and if known, the name and address of the person who gave such order or orders of approval."
So there you said:  
"No-one.  We saw the need because we were getting killed."
Why is it, Sir, that you did not put the name of Shadrack as the answer to that question?  Why did you omit that?

MR KHUZWAYO: I've tried to point out something like that, that I've already mentioned that the person who gave us a list of the people who were the problem in the community, was Shadrack.  He gave us that list immediately when we came back from our military training, when we came back home, that's when he gave us the list of the people who we were supposed to eliminate because at that time we had already received training in firearms because our enemies also were using firearms.

MS JELAL: Sir I hear you, but it doesn't answer the question.  Why did you not put Shadrack's name as the answer to 11(b)?  11(b) basically asked you who gave you your instructions?  It would be who gave you the list, it would mean the same thing.  Why did you not put Shadrack's name there?

MR KHUZWAYO: I think even in my statement and my affidavit, even my attorney knows that because I've mentioned that Shadrack gave us the list.

MS JELAL: Right, but this application form was the first thing that you filled in, right and in here you say no-one gave you the instructions, "we saw the need because we were getting killed" and you specifically say "no-one" so it's obvious you understood the question, why did you not reveal initially the name of the person who gave you the list?

MR KHUZWAYO: Initially when I filled in my application, I stated like that because some of our activities, we will do them before Shadrack gives us instructions and we will only go back to Shadrack and report to him, maybe that is why I've written that we took the decision on our own.

MS JELAL: Do you know where Shadrack is now?

MR KHUZWAYO: I heard that he is now late.

MS JELAL: Did you hear this before you made your supplementary affidavit, or was it after you made your supplementary affidavit?

MR KHUZWAYO: I only made one statement.  My initial statement didn't have people's names and didn't have more information on how we were trained.

MS JELAL: My question is, when did you learn that Shadrack was deceased, was it after you made your statement, or before you made your statement?

MR KHUZWAYO: I only learned after I made my statement.

MS JELAL: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS JELAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ma'am.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Just one, Mr Chairman.  Can you just explain something, Mr Khuzwayo?  When did you get to know Mr Shadrack Mahletsha for the first time?

MR KHUZWAYO: I grew up in front of him.

ADV SANDI: Am I correct to understand your story to be as follows?  You had a problem in that you were being attacked by members of the IFP and you as ANC members were also attacking members of the IFP, not so?

MR KHUZWAYO: It did happen that way but then later we ANC, we decided that we were only going to attack the leaders of the IFP.  We decided so because we noticed that they were so indiscriminate in their attacks and then we as ANC we decided that we were not supposed to do that, we were supposed to attack only the leaders or the people who were the ones who were perpetrating the violence in the area.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but what I want to understand, is it Shadrack who came to you and said you should kill the following members of the IFP, or is it you who went to Shadrack to say that:  "We want to retaliate against the IFP, please assist us."  Which of the two happened?

MR KHUZWAYO: Other members had already complained like that before and then the problem was that most of the people who were fit enough to counter attack with IFP, were not trained therefore it was decided that we were supposed to leave the area and go and receive training so that we will come back and attack.

ADV SANDI: And is that at the stage when Mr Shadrack would be of assistance?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, he helped us but he wasn't doing this on his own, he usually reported all these things to the ANC office in Empangeni.

ADV SANDI: Okay.  Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Khuzwayo, it's not clear to me, for which offences are you applying for amnesty for, exactly?

MR KHUZWAYO: For the killing of Nkosi Mthembu.

ADV BOSMAN: Is that all?

MR KHUZWAYO: We didn't kill Mr Sibiya, I only found out that he passed away when I was in prison.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, but you are talking about robbing a car, on page 21 of the papers you say
"I committed robbery, by robbing a car, Isuzu, with the aim of assisting in the area of ...(indistinct)"
Are you not applying for that?

MR KHUZWAYO: I am also applying for amnesty for that, but I didn't have any knowledge that that car was hijacked or was robbed from someone and also I'm applying amnesty for being in possession of illegal firearms.

ADV BOSMAN: But the issue of the car, you say here
"I committed robbery"
Is that wrong in the papers?

MR KHUZWAYO: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV BOSMAN: On page 21 of the papers, under paragraph 9(iv) you explicitly say
"I committed robbery by robbing a car, an Isuzu."
Now I don't understand you, you say you are applying for amnesty but you say you did not know anything about it.

MR KHUZWAYO: The reason I put it down that way, it is because the investigators who were investigating this crime, they were beating me, they wanted me to agree that I was the one who hijacked the car, but the truth is I didn't hijack that car, I only received cars the way I've already explained and I was using it merely for that purpose alone.

ADV BOSMAN: Now if you say the investigators, are you referring to the Truth Commission's investigators, did they want you to agree?