Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I joined the ANC or I started with the ANC in Sebokeng and I said that I cannot be an ordinary member because at that stage whites haven't joined yet.  I'll have to join at the MK wing, I had to learn how to use weapons and because we were involved with a lot of weapons, that is why they said that I was member of MK not just an ordinary member of the ANC.

MR MALAN: Did they just tell you that you were a member of the MK?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I later received a card that said I was an MK  member.

MR MALAN: Who told you this?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It was Radebe.

MR MALAN: From Sebokeng?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes, we only knew him as Radebe?

MR MALAN: Did you have any activities with them?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I did not work with them.  They gave me books an stuff to read and that I did and they showed me the weapons that they had and that is about it.

MR MALAN: Did you receive any training in the handling of weapons?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: We did shoot yes in Zonkezizwe with AK's.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did receive some military training?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes but it was not guerilla warfare in that I was in the bush.  They told me what is a 9 mm, what is an AK and what rounds are used and to really use it, no I did not receive that training.  I shot twice with an AK47, that was when Fouche was with us at Zonkezizwe.

CHAIRPERSON: How long was Fouche with you?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Probably four months.

ADV SOGODI: As a member of the MK, who was your commander?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Radebe.

ADV SOGODI: Did he know about your involvement with the police?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

ADV SOGODI: What was the MK's relationship with the police then?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Not very good.

ADV SOGODI: No I want more detail on that because I'm trying to think of a situation where the MK would have dealings with the police?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It was to get cash.  They would remunerate us for the weapons that we handed in.

ADV SOGODI: The police would remunerate the MK members for cash for weapons that ...[intervention]

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: They didn't know that I was a member of MK.  They said on the T.V., it was even on the radio, anybody who handed in a weapon, AK's and something like that, they get money for that.  That was to take all those weapons out of the community.

ADV SOGODI: So your commander knew that you were taking weapons out of the community and taking them back to the police and getting remuneration for that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: For money.

MR MALAN: Ms de Lange, if I say to you that you were never a member of MK, it was just part of a game, you were white and you were a member of the - you received books, you did not really know what was going on?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: In politics yes, I believe I didn't know what was going on.

MR MALAN: Because MK started the STU's(?), they had to train them, they had to ensure stability, security, you were never part of that?  You were never involved in that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: All that I wanted to know - if I only had the protection of the community there, if I said that I was a member of the MK to move around.

MR MALAN: The fact that you were a MK member, is that not part of your imagination?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No because I was with them because where else would we have received these weapons from?

MR MALAN: The weapons were freely obtainable, anyone could get a weapon at that stage in that area.  It was stolen and you traded in it and anyhow it was practice and it was exactly the idea to get it out of that area and the ANC and STU's at certain areas worked together to get these weapons out of the community in order to stop the violence?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: That is what we did.  We took the weapons out of the community.

MR MALAN: But I would put it to you that you were never a member of the MK and that it's part of your imagination.  Maybe your own opinion of yourself?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I cannot think how it can be myself importance.

MR MALAN: Have you still got your membership cards?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I've got my ANC membership cards.

MR MALAN: You said earlier you also had an MK card?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I did have one.

MR MALAN: Do you still have it?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I do not have it.

MR MALAN: Did you ever have it?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I did have one.

MR MALAN: Why is it gone?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I travelled a few times and I was arrested by the police and I didn't think or see the need for keeping it.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV SOGODI: Were you employed at the time when you stayed in Sebokeng?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

ADV SOGODI: What work were you doing?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: We had a model school.

ADV SOGODI: Was it a school under the Department of Education?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, it was private.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by model school, a school for models?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes a modelling school.

MR COETZEE: Ms De Lange, this incident of the 7th April where the deceased were killed, did it have any connection with your involvement in the ANC?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I do not believe it had.

MR COETZEE: It did not have any connection with the deceased's involvement in the ANC?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No.

MR COETZEE: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

MR JOUBERT: I've got no questions Mr Chairperson.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Ms de Lange, do you agree with me that the fact of the matter is that there are activities of your group which were not aware of?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes that's true.

MR MADASA: And this is born out by the allegations about Lesotho?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: That's true.

MR MADASA: Secondly, referring to the second bundle that was prepared by others, on page 42, there's a newspaper article there, headlines reading as follows
"First White Sasolburger to Join the ANC as a Woman"
You are aware of that article?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I am.

MR MADASA: When was this written do you know?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: '92.

MR MADASA: 1992 and at the bottom there of that page the photo indicated - is that you in that photo?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It must be yes, I'm the only person who joined the ANC that year.

MR MADASA: With some members, clenched fists, look you seem to be addressing a crowd or something.  Just have a look at it?  It's the small bundle.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja it's me.

MR MADASA: What was going on there?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: We had a rally.

MR MADASA: Where?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: In Zandele Stadium.

MR MADASA: Where?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: At Zandele Stadium.

MR MADASA: Where is Zandele?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It's a location of Sasolburg.

MR MADASA: What was the rally about?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I don't know.

MR MADASA: You can't remember?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I can't remember.

MR MADASA: Lastly, it is therefore - you remember you said there were activities you were not aware of that your group was involved in?  Now I'm following on that - would you agree with me that therefore there is a possibility that the applicant, Mr de Ru, could have been given information that was wrong?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MADASA: Either by Fouche or by a member or your group, is that not possible?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: That is possible.

MR MADASA: Or he was given information that was in fact correct but you were not aware of?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: I have no further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clarify something that I missed, I'm afraid I didn't - you've told us about the guns that you took along, an AK, a shotgun, a PPK, a Baby Brown and then what were the two others?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: A 765 and a 38.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: A 38.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever see any of these guns again?