Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Kamana, state your rank and where you are stationed and confirm that you are attached to the South African Police Services please?

LC KAMANA: I am a Sergeant at Zwelitsha Police station.

MR OBOSE: Right, what rank did you hold in March 1994?

LC KAMANA: I was a Sergeant.

MR OBOSE: Did you go to the meeting at the Bisho Police College on the 22nd of March 1994?

LC KAMANA: Yes, I did go.

MR OBOSE: Why did you go there?

LC KAMANA: I heard over the Police radio that all the Police had to be at that meeting at the Police College.

MR OBOSE: What time did you get to the meeting?

LC KAMANA: At about four o'clock in the afternoon.

MR OBOSE: What was going on when you got there?

LC KAMANA: The hall was full and there were people outside, they were singing freedom songs, saying "down with Gqozo."

MR OBOSE: Did you participate in this?

LC KAMANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you get into the hall or were you also one of the people who were outside?

LC KAMANA: I was outside, next to the gate.

MR OBOSE: The gate to the entrance into the College or which gate?

LC KAMANA: There is a gate that goes to the barracks.

MR OBOSE: Did you participate in fetching any Officer, bringing him to the hall?

LC KAMANA: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Which one?

LC KAMANA: Major Condo and Captain Sawuti.

MR OBOSE: Why did you go and fetch them?

LC KAMANA: I heard from the loudspeaker that somebody with a car was supposed to go and fetch Captain Sawuti or Major Condo because the Officers and all the Police were supposed to be in that meeting.

MR OBOSE: Did you have the keys to a vehicle?

LC KAMANA: No, it was Sergeant Toto with the car keys, but he was next to me, so I went together with him.

MR OBOSE: Major Condo, where was he found?

LC KAMANA: At his house, at Ndileka.

MR OBOSE: Did you tell him at his house as to why he was needed at Bisho Police College?

LC KAMANA: Yes, we told him that all the Police were there and the Officers were there, so we were told to fetch him.

MR OBOSE: Did he resist?

LC KAMANA: No, he said that he heard about the meeting, but he didn't know whether it was still on at that time, so he dressed up and then we went with him.

MR OBOSE: You then brought him to the meeting?

LC KAMANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did he also remain inside the hall until the next morning?

LC KAMANA: I don't know because I didn't see him in the morning, I don't know whether he left or he stayed there for the whole night, because I was outside the whole night.

MR OBOSE: Is it correct that the Police were armed, some with assault rifles, R5's, R4's, etc?

LC KAMANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you know why or were you told why?

LC KAMANA: There was a rumour that the South African Defence Force was on standby in King William's Town and the Special Forces were going to go to the College, so we were told to guard the College so that they could not go in.

MR OBOSE: Were you yourself, armed?

LC KAMANA: I had my side arm, so I was armed with that.

MR OBOSE: When did you get to hear the news that Gqozo had stepped down?

LC KAMANA: I heard that during the night at about eleven, it was just a rumour.

MR OBOSE: Did you personally want Gqozo to step down?

LC KAMANA: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Why?

LC KAMANA: It is because at that time, we were not satisfied, I was a Police so we were treated badly, our houses were being burnt and the soldiers, we were being shot, so the Gqozo seemed as if we were the ones who were protecting him.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Obose.  Any questions Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Kamana, when you arrived at the hall there was a talk about corrupt Officers, am I correct?

LC KAMANA: I was outside, I was guarding the parameters, I was not inside the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Okay.  Any way, a person who was fetched in particular the Officers, his name would be announced over the loudspeaker, is that correct?

LC KAMANA: No, they didn't specify which person to be fetched, it was said that all the Officers in the Police must come to the meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Any way, you fetched Captain Sawuti because his name was announced over the loudspeaker that he must be fetched?

LC KAMANA: No, I went to Major Condo and I found him and there was another Brigadier in Bisho but I forgot his surname, Captain Sawuti was the third person.  I didn't go there because I was told to fetch him, but I was just collecting the Police in general.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Okay.  Let's put it differently, how did you know that Captain Sawuti was not at the hall?  How did you know that you had to fetch him from his house?

LC KAMANA: I didn't know the Police that were there and that were not there, but because I knew that he was staying in Bisho and because I was in Bisho at the time, so we went passed his house.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So it was by coincidence that he was fetched, not that there was a plan that he must be fetched?

LC KAMANA: According to my knowledge, I didn't hear a word thing that we must fetch Sawuti because of a particular reason, but we were told to fetch all the Police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let's get this straight Mr Kamana.  There at the hall, you did not know who was in the hall and who was not there, is that correct?

LC KAMANA: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, in fact the evidence which has been led thus far is that a name of an Officer would be called out that so and so is not here and so and so has misappropriated funds, therefore he must be fetched.  That has been the evidence.  The question is was it not the case even with Captain Sawuti that it was said that he has misappropriated funds and therefore he must be fetched and be brought to the hall?

LC KAMANA: That might be so, but I didn't hear his word being called.  Maybe he was called when I was with Major Condo or maybe when I was in Bisho but when I was there, I didn't hear his name being called.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Right.  How  many Police houses do you know in Bisho?

LC KAMANA: A lot of them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: More than 100?

LC KAMANA: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: More than 50?

LC KAMANA: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: More than 20?

LC KAMANA: Maybe 20.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you go to the 20 houses at Bisho?

LC KAMANA: His house was the third one.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Maybe you don't understand the question.  You know 20 houses, 20 Police houses in Bisho.  Did you go to those 20 houses?

LC KAMANA: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Why not?

LC KAMANA: It is because I didn't have to go to all the houses, I went to Mr Ntileka's house and to the Brigadier, I have forgotten his name, and I went to Captain Sawuti.  I would have gone to other members whom I knew that were staying in Bisho.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But why didn't you go?  Why didn't you go to the 20 houses because you were not told to go and fetch Captain Sawuti, all you were told was to go and fetch all the Policemen who were not there, whom you did not even know.

LC KAMANA: I found Major Condo, I remember finding him and then we took him to the hall and then I went to get Brigadier Suys, we were told that he was not there, he was in Port Elizabeth.  We went to Captain Sawuti, we found him and then we took him to the College.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, why didn't you go to another Policeman's house after Mr Sawuti's house, if the instruction was fetch all the Policemen?

LC KAMANA: I went to fetch Sergeant Dabepi, he was not there, I went to another Sergeant, he was not there and then I went back to the College because I was tired at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  Do you dispute the evidence that Officers were fetched because there were allegations of misappropriation of funds by them?