Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: I call N J Vermeulen, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: N J Vermeulen.  Please switch on and then please give your full names for the record.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit.  Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Vermeulen, handed in a proper application for amnesty in accordance with Section 18 of the Act, is this correct?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: At the time of these events you were an employee as defined in Section 20(2)(a) and 20(2)(f) of the Act of Reconciliation, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You were then affiliated to the unit which was known as Vlakplaas, Section C1, and as appears from the additional bundles and also the activities of Vlakplaas.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: At the time of this incident I understand that you were a Warrant Officer.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You confirm the contents of your amnesty application?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You at all times acted ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, just a moment.  Whoever else is in possession of one of those things, won't you just switch it off.  Sorry, Mr Cornelius.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	You at all times acted strictly within the mandate of your commander, Col de Kock.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Just to make it clear, your application for amnesty at this stage is for the illegal possession of a firearm, an AK47, is this correct?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You have not applied for conspiracy to murder or something to that effect?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You at all times acted within the scope of your duty.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you please shortly tell us what happened, you received orders to accompany the Vlakplaas unit to Natal, on the request of the Durban Security unit.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any knowledge of the aim of this request?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Could you please tell the Committee.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: At the time of this request Durban was reasonably active and there were several Security Police officers who had already been killed and a request was lodged that the Vlakplaas unit should go to Durban branch to help to try and find the people who had killed the police officers.

MR CORNELIUS: Was this an anti-insurgency order?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Was any instruction given to you at that stage or even later that you had to come and kill the people?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Good.  If we look at your application on page 75 and in the first paragraph you say that you had already been busy working at Vlakplaas, is this correct?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Good.  Who accompanied you to the CR Swart Police Station, can you remember this?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: We drove in a group, it was Willie Nortje, myself, Steve Bosch and Frank McCarter.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive certain instructions to infiltrate the area?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Could you please tell us what happened that specific evening.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Are you talking about the Chesterville incident?

MR CORNELIUS: The Chesterville incident.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That specific evening we deployed in a group.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you please tell us who "we" were?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: It was myself and Willie and Frank McCarter and Steve Bosch, these were the white people, and all the black people.  I cannot remember them by name, but Simon Radebe and Aubrey and Shosha were some of the members that I can remember, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: The other members, if you put it this way, were actually the askaris, is this not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Where did you go to?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: We then drove to a police station or an army base, I'm not completely sure anymore, where a certain army officer then pointed out to us that Chesterville had been a flashpoint and that we could try to infiltrate there.

MR CORNELIUS: It has already been put that Willie Nortje and the other three white members had gone to the station, is this correct?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: The askaris apparently did not go along.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And then you returned to the group, what happened then?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: We instructed them there, Willie instructed them that they had to go into the Chesterville area and that they had to try and gain information or try and contact the so-called comrades or SDU units.

MR CORNELIUS: In other words you should infiltrate, identify and report back.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Where did you wait?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: We waited at a graveyard if I can remember it correctly.

MR CORNELIUS: And this group of askaris, did they report back to you?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: They went back and they came back with the request that they want a showpiece as a weapon, and Willie at that stage had given them an AK47 as a result of their request.

MR CORNELIUS: I refer you to paragraph 2 of your amnesty application on page 75, and there's another typographical error
"East block weapons were given to give the ANC members reason."
This is then the showpiece.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is then the showpiece, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Do you ask this to be amended?  Would you like this to be changed to a show weapon, showpiece weapon?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did this showpiece then get handed over to Simon Radebe?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, an AK was handed over by Willie Nortje.

MR CORNELIUS: Just one?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, just one, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And what happened then?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: The members then left again and if I can remember correctly we moved to a place close to a bridge and we waited there.

MR CORNELIUS: Then what happened?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: After a while a shooting - we heard a shooting.  Simon returned to us and said that a shooting had taken place.  Myself and Willie and the white people got into the vehicle.  I think Willie gave instructions that they had to go to CR Swart Police Station.

MR CORNELIUS: Was Simon Radebe on foot or was he in a vehicle?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: They were in a vehicle, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And they drove away from the bridge in a vehicle.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you at that stage then report back to the Commanding Officer, de Kock?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: We went back to CR Swart where we found Col de Kock in his sleeping quarters and he was busy sleeping and Willie then reported this incident to him, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: When Simon Radebe reported to you, what were your impressions, that the situation had gotten out of hand or what had happened?