Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MR NTSEBEZA: In fact I have a report from the Cape Times at the time which led with an article that puts the whole period in perspective.
 As I say almost to the day, not almost, virtually to the, not virtually, to the day this Cape Times leader was on Wednesday, June the 11th, 1986.  It says "National Scandal".  It is a long report, but it says clearly something that any police person, any police person let alone one who was in charge of an area in which this specific instances had taken place, would have been quite concerned about.
 For instance it says the discrepancies between official and independent accounts of what has been happening, are so striking that the need for clarity can no longer be denied.  If President Botha has any respect for the intelligence of the public he claims to serve, he will immediately appoint a commission.
 Wholly irreconcilable versions which were barred from the public are specific allegations that the police had been siding with the "witdoek" vigilantes against the comrades and Crossroads refugees in the (indistinct)
 This from on the spot clergymen and others who have been named in newspaper reports and affidavits.  And a general denial of these allegations maintaining that the police have been impartially holding the line between the warring groups, this from the police.
 It goes on to say that in this week's disgraceful events those are the words of that paper, and not mine, in this week's disgraceful events for example the following statements have been made by reliable witnesses.
 The Reverend John Freeth, this is what he is reported to be saying.  We saw police covering the "witdoeke" and firing on the defending shacks.  The Reverend John Freeth, it was very clear that the "witdoeke" were operating under police protection.
 The Reverend David Cook right in front of us there were three caspers.  No attempt was made to stop the looting, the burning and the fighting.  I saw a policeman shooting with a rifle into KTC defenders to prevent them from defending their property.
 Father Desmond Currin, St Gabriels, this very church, Guguletu and Mrs Emma Huysmans, editor of Crisis News said that police vans and a casper escorted the vigilantes on their way to attack the Zwolani Centre every step of the way.  The Centre had been housing Crossroads refugees and was destroyed by fire and attack.
 The police will reply, they issued blanket denials.  Either these respected eye-witnesses are deluded or shameless liars.  Or else, police spokesman do not have all the facts to their disposal.  It is inconceivable that the police would deliberately tell lies to the public.
 Now, this was a leader page of the Cape Times on Wednesday, the 11th of June 1986.  It is a leader page that you possibly did or did not read.

UNKNOWN: I cannot recall.

MR NTSEBEZA: Come again?

UNKNOWN: I cannot recall.

MR NTSEBEZA: You cannot recall?  But Director Knipe, all I am trying to say to you is that this irreconcilability between public versions of what happened, and what the official response in the form of police denials was, was public knowledge.
 And you are in the eye of the storm, you are entrusted with investigating.  On your own admission all forms of violence, including that violence.  Now I don't want to be (indistinct) with you Director Knipe, you have been extremely helpful to the Commission, what I would like to understand from your testimony, is whether you are saying in so many words, that because you were not handling the specific dockets  you were not able to give instructions specifically for this particular allegations to be investigated fully?

UNKNOWN: No, and again as I said that is a disadvantage that I am at, having such short notice to appear here.  I have drawn a few dockets that I have managed to draw.  And I would like the Commission to possibly read the investigation diaries and if you read those investigation diaries, I think you will see that exactly the points that you are raising, I rose to be investigated.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do I understand your evidence to be saying that you were very, very concerned about the fact that there was this irreconcilability between public versions of what had happened and police denials?

UNKNOWN: No, my concern was to arrive at the truth.  And the truth can only be arrived at to broaden the scope of the investigation and all people that are able to give evidence, make statements.

MR NTSEBEZA: As far as you, did anybody get arrested in connection with all these incidents?

UNKNOWN: In of the cases, there were arrests, yes.  But not in connection with the KTC incident, no.   When I left that was still in the process of investigation.

MR NTSEBEZA: Does it surprise you or would it surprise you of all these incidents to which there has been so much public testimony about obvious wrong doing, that there isn't a single case that you can recall of in which people were arrested?

UNKNOWN: Many of the cases that were investigated when there was this vast discrepancy between versions, we did not make arrests because it was very difficult - who do you believe and I think many of those investigations, we as detectives, hoped would end up as open court inquests where the truth could be determined.

MR NTSEBEZA: Of course you heard that the inquest that were held were informal inquests, so that was not helpful, was it?

UNKNOWN: Of course not.  I cannot understand the complexities of the situation that an open court inquest was not held.

MR NTSEBEZA: Again I relate this to what was suggested by your interference.  Does it not suggest to you that there was clearly an official sanction of the actions of the "witdoeke"?  I am talking about you looking backwards, because that is what the purpose of the Committee, you are not on trial, nobody is on trial, but we would like to be able to find that there are certain conclusions that you can draw and we would like to get impressions from the people who were in the thick of things?

UNKNOWN: Again, I would like to answer you question actually as two answers.
 My perspective is that there was interference and that there was some sort of scull (indistinct) taking place.  However, I do not have the evidence to substantiate that.
 And I work with evidence, I work with facts.  I do not believe in the colour grey. I like things to be either black or white, but as a South African citizen as hopefully a thinking person, there are questions that I cannot answer and that makes that I draw certain perceptions, not dissimilar possibly to what you are putting to me.

MR NTSEBEZA: Who was responsible for your transfer?  Was it Brigadier Van der Westhuizen?

UNKNOWN: Brigadier Van der Westhuizen.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did it strike you as strange or did you accept it as ...

UNKNOWN: No, I accepted the transfer, I accepted the transfer.

MR NTSEBEZA: No more questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Madam Chair.  I am sorry that I have to take you back to the Van der Westhuizen story and your relationship with him.
 Actually I have more questions than I have time to ask, but what puzzles me is the statement you made just now that you just accepted the transfer and I am wondering as the investigator of this case, after the intervention by the officials in Parliament through Van der Westhuizen, did you ever discuss this issue with members of your team, with your colleagues?

UNKNOWN: I am sure Jooste was aware of it because Jooste carried the docket, he was the docket carrier of the charge against Johnson.  So it was discussed with him and I have made mention of this incident to various people over the years.