Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let me ask Mr Booyens.  Mr Booyens, do you have any questions that you would like to put to this witness?  Sorry Mr Booyens is sitting without a microphone.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Luthuli, you testified before Judge Van der Reiden in the Supreme Court after you decided to come out with the truth, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't know the Judge, will you please explain.

MR BOOYENS: Where you testified against Mr Mbambo, Mr (indistinct)  Mkhize, Mr Israel Hlongwane, when they were charged with murder in the Supreme Court here in Durban?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And would I be correct if I assume that you told the truth then?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You say you were present at the meeting at Gideon Zulu's when the killing of Nathi Gomedi was discussed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Why didn't you say so in that court?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would not have said so without being asked.

MR BOOYENS: But you were you see.  And I eventually had to drag it out of you, and you merely conceded to it as a possibility, I can read to you the question and the answer if you want to.
	Now, you distinctly remember it.  How did that happen Mr Luthuli?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: If I had forgotten something, just like now, isn't it that I had forgotten the name of Captain Masinga now, but later on I remembered.  You are able as a person to remember something at a later stage.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  And it is also correct Mr Luthuli, and if necessary I will hand in the record of your evidence in that trial, that you conceded that your memory was extremely faulty and extremely unreliable in that case, is that correct, do you remember that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I cannot remember.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.  You can't even remember that you made that concession?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR BOOYENS: Maybe I should just read a few passages to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stuart, you've got no objection to this, it is a court record?

MR STUART: No Mr Chairman, no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: For example let us deal with the - now Mr Luthuli you have told me that there were many meetings ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Booyens, I think if you can just for purposes of the record, make reference to the page number that you are reading from.

MR BOOYENS: Certainly Mr Chairman, I am referring to page 1698, line 15.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Booyens, sorry again to interrupt, I have just received a message, if you could speak a little bit slower for the interpreter please.

MR BOOYENS: Will do Mr Chairman.  Now Mr Luthuli, you have told me that there were many meetings, many things were discussed and you cannot remember all the detail.  Your answer was yes.
	Then I asked you is  it possible that the accused may indeed be correct, that the involvement of Nathi Gomedi was discussed at the meeting and it was suggested at the meeting that because of the fact that he was involved in the ANC role to get accused 1 into trouble, that an instruction was given that he should be eliminated, with which you went along, and just before you answer that, and you might forget that or may have forgotten about that, and your answer was, it is possible.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Well, today you distinctly remember that meeting?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I have just indicated that one is able to remember.

MR BOOYENS: At page 1679 and that could be presumable when it was discussed, that the ANC used various sorts of tactics to attain their goals, your answer yes.  Next question, you could even have used the spray at the stage before you went to Gideon Zulu's house for the Eshowe meeting, well, I cannot remember that.
	I am not going to waste time, but your answers under cross-examination and the record is I understand available to the Committee, consisted of uncertainties, concessions of possibilities, you were not certain of many things.  Would you agree with that summary of your evidence before Judge Van der Reiden?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR BOOYENS: Well, I think the record will speak for itself Mr Luthuli.
	Now, let me get to what I want to ask you.  You have implicated Colonel Louis Botha on two occasions, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What was his rank when you met him?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I cannot remember very well whether he was a Major or a Captain.

MR BOOYENS: Very well, and let's deal with the meeting at 121 Battalion.  What contribution if any, did Mr Botha make?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He was supposed to take care of cases and also make sure that those cases disappeared or were erased.
	He was just going to deal with the Police.

MR BOOYENS: In other words are you saying that he covered up, that was his job?  He was supposed to cover up your hit squad activities?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: But your hit squad members that he was supposed to protect, was subsequently - had to flee, they were pursued by the Police and they were ultimately prosecuted, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Is it not possible that the fact that Mr Botha whether or not Mr Botha attended the meeting, may also be one of those things where you may be making a mistake?
	In other words, maybe somebody suggested that they should speak to Botha, but he wasn't present at 121 Battalion?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that would be a mistake, he was there.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.  I asked you what, you say he was supposed to cover up if I understand you correctly.  What did Mr Botha himself contribute to the meeting, if anything?  Did he say anything, can you remember anything that he said?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I cannot remember.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember whether he spoke at all?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I remember he did speak.

MR BOOYENS: You don't know about what?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say the matter under discussion was what was going to happen if the Caprivi members were to be arrested and what is it that was going to be done so that they are not discovered not to be Police members.
	That is what I can remember.

MR BOOYENS: Sorry, the last bit of your answer I don't have.  What is going to be doing when it is discovered that they are not Police members, sorry I am not quite with you.  What do you mean by that, I just don't understand what you are trying to tell me.  Maybe it is the interpretation, I don't know, but I don't understand.
	He said what will happen if they are going to be arrested, that bit I understood, but what is it about this if it is discovered that they are not Police members, perhaps you can just clarify that for me please.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Something had to be done, they had to be given something that would identify them as Police so that they could not be easily arrested when they were up and down the streets, say with guns.

MR BOOYENS: Oh, I see, no thank you.  Well, I am not going to go into detail apart from putting to you that Mr Botha informs me that he never attended a meeting at 121 Battalion, where you were present.  You obviously join issue with that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Which meeting did he admit to having attended with me?

MR BOOYENS: I didn't admit, say that he admitted, I say that he denied that he ever attended a meeting with you at 121 Battalion, that is the one meeting you spoke about.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your comment on that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I know him very well.  I would not have seen a different person, a white person, and say that is Botha, I know him very well.

MR BOOYENS: And similarly, you also gave evidence about a second meeting at a hotel here in Durban, do you remember that?