Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-10

MR DU PLESSIS: That is your opinion.  I would just like to hear - I don't know how and I cannot ask you questions, I do not know how Kondile could have assisted me with bomb attacks while he was in the cell so I don't know how you're going to sort this thing out.
	And I can just say further that what I testified with regard to Kondile, were the facts that I can remember and things that definitely happened, there was nothing further.  If we go and look for documentation we will see that he was not detained anywhere else - I did not have such a place. 
	  If we had such a places that would have worked well we could not have detained him for a further month, I cannot see what the purpose would have been, I really cannot.

MR JANSEN: As it pleases Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Roux, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR ROUX: That's correct Mr Chairman.  Can I commence?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR ROUX: Mr du Plessis, if I understand you correctly, you wanted Kondile either to go to Transkei or Lesotho as an informer?

MR DU PLESSIS: To Lesotho.

MR ROUX: Would you agree that there was always a possibility if he returned to Lesotho the people would mistrust him there?

MR DU PLESSIS: There was that possibility, yes.

MR ROUX: And you believed that he had turned and that he was on your side?

MR DU PLESSIS: Correct.

MR ROUX: Would you agree with me that if he had really turned - you know that it wasn't so according to your version, is it not possible that a note by him in which he says that: "I've been arrested, they tried to recruit me" and he sent it out to the ANC, would that not have been in keeping with his actions of working with you?

MR DU PLESSIS: No.

MR ROUX: Will you not agree with me that it could have been a way in which to assure that if he went back to Lesotho they would have regarded him as a trustworthy man?

MR DU PLESSIS: Here the agreement was that we would not lie to one another, we would speak the truth.  He had suggestions as to how he was going to re-infiltrate Lesotho, he had suggestions as to how it should be dealt with and now he came and made this known.  I would have expected that he would have told me and I would have arranged this for him.

MR ROUX: How did you know that he did not want to show you that note as a possible way of doing this?

MR DU PLESSIS: Then he would have shown this afterwards.  I did not take the note from him.

MR ROUX: How long did you take to wait until he was to discuss it with you?

MR DU PLESSIS: I placed him under observation in the cells and he never said it to me so I was satisfied.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr du Plessis, just as a matter of interest, was this note written in English or Afrikaans?

MR DU PLESSIS: It was written in English.

MR ROUX: Would you agree that according to your own version, he did not turn, that he was still on the side of the ANC?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR ROUX: And if someone is on the side of the ANC as he was then the conveying of the information to the principle agent, that it would have been of great value to the ANC?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

MR ROUX: And will you agree that he could have written anything on that note that he wanted to?

MR DU PLESSIS: He could, yes.

MR ROUX: And can you think of any reason why he would not have given or rather written important information on the note than merely the fact that he has been recruited?

MR DU PLESSIS: I can just speculate as you can as to why he did not do that.

MR ROUX: But will you agree that people expected him to rather have written that?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's not what I would say, I do not agree with you.

MR ROUX: Why not?

MR DU PLESSIS: You cannot think for me what I would like to write in a note, he had a reason for writing that.

MR ROUX: Would you agree that it would have had a better effect or a better advantage to the ANC, had he written that information on the note?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's possible, yes.

MR ROUX: Why do you say it's possible, don't you agree that it definitely would be to a greater advantage of the ANC?

MR DU PLESSIS: He would have had to write quite a long letter.

CHAIRPERSON: Really this is speculation isn't it, as to why this didn't happen or why Kondile did not write all this, I mean that's speculation and unfortunately he's not here to offer any explanation.  So let's get down to the real issues instead of speculating about why he didn't say certain things.

MR ROUX: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
	You thought that you had turned him as a person for your side, am I correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, I said this several times.

MR ROUX: And you also said that you were proud of the fact that you had succeeded.

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR ROUX: So, you regarded this as an achievement?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR ROUX: Did you think that he had turned to such an extent that he was supporting the cause that you supported?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would not say that he supported the cause that I supported but he was prepared to give me the information I required.

MR ROUX: Why did you think that he would give you the information?

MR DU PLESSIS: Well, his body language, the discussions between us, one gets to know these people later.  We did not only deal with one informer, we dealt with many.

MR ROUX: What I actually is, why did you think, what is the reason why he would give you this information?

MR DU PLESSIS: The bottom line is, that's what I believed.  How I reached that conclusion I cannot recall but I realised that that was the fact and that's that.  I do not believe that it's important how I reached that decision today, there can be various factors that contributed.
	And if you think that 16 or 17 years that I can recall the exact discussion between us, then I must lie and that's not what I want to do.

MR ROUX: You offered no rewards?

MR DU PLESSIS: I did, yes, I did offer large amounts of money at that stage.

MR ROUX: Why is this the first time that the Commission is hearing about this?

MR DU PLESSIS: Nobody asked.  Informers do get rewards, any system works like this.  You do not work for free either, nor did he.

MR ROUX: I agree, it's obvious but what I'm asking you, if it's so obvious, why was it never submitted to the Commission?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not know.

MR ROUX: From the 24th of July '81 to end July or beginning August, Kondile was taken to Jeffrey's Bay, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, are you saying to Jeffrey's Bay?  I cannot remember exactly when he was transferred to Jeffrey's Bay, we can look at the occurrence book if it is complete.

MR ROUX: He was in Jeffrey's Bay for a period of time?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR ROUX: And from the time he was in Jeffrey's Bay, was he transferred back to P.E. or Humansdorp?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, never to Humansdorp as far as I know.

MR ROUX: The transfer from Jeffrey's Bay, was it before the note was found or afterwards?

MR DU PLESSIS: The transfer from?

MR ROUX: He was transferred from Humansdorp to Jeffrey's Bay, was the note found in Jeffrey's Bay or Humansdorp?

MR DU PLESSIS: In Jeffrey's Bay.

MR ROUX: So, you know Mr Ginotry Danster?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I know him, he worked under me.

MR ROUX: Where did he actually work?

MR DU PLESSIS: Port Elizabeth.

MR ROUX: Not Jeffrey's Bay?

MR DU PLESSIS: No.

MR ROUX: Do you know why he was in Jeffrey's Bay?

MR DU PLESSIS: I had him come there to guard Kondile.

MR ROUX: And this is before the note was found?

MR DU PLESSIS: It was just afterwards.

MR ROUX: So he was in Jeffrey's Bay first and then Mr Danster was not there yet?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's as I have it, yes, because Mr Danster had no purpose because he did not participate in the interrogation.

MR ROUX: As concerns the guarding that Danster had to do, did you give him specific instructions?