Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I stand by it that it was not specifically mentioned that there would be arms and what type of arms there would be.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: No, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Yes, my attention was now drawn to the Section 29 hearing where Sergeant Manzini gave evidence, once again I am addressing you in English, the evidence that he gave was that there was a previous attempt where the people did not arrive?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And he refers to the second incident?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: In other words if the people had arrived the first time, according to the evidence of De Kock and the others, the Vlakplaas people would not have been there and Mr Deetlefs would not have been there?  Was preparations made to involve any of them?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson, there were some of the people, I do not recall specifically Vlakplaas but Mr Deetlefs was there, there were other members of the Ermelo Branch, but I cannot recall specifically whether there were any of the Vlakplaas members, but arrangements were made that if these people would come in, that the incident that took place the second time, would have happened earlier.

MR MALAN: But we have not heard from any of the other witnesses evidence to that effect, we heard that Deetlefs had come earlier and left, and it was not said or any of the other Ermelo members?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is so Chairperson.

MR MALAN: They had not given evidence with regard to the first aborted incident.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MR MALAN: But you say some of the Ermelo people were there?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And some of the Vlakplaas people?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I cannot recall specifically Chairperson, I cannot recall whether some of them were there.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising out of questions that had been put?

MR MOERANE: Yes
Mr Chairman, thank you.   You see my instructions are that there was an earlier attempt to infiltrate two persons on the 5th of June 1988, what is your comment?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson,  I cannot specifically recall but there were instances where there was a possible infiltration which never took place, but I cannot recall whether it was definitely that case.  I don't know whether the arrangements were made.  I have forgotten whether that had taken place, I cannot recall, but there was more than one occasion where there were possible infiltrations and that the persons had not arrived.

MR MOERANE: And one of the persons that were supposed to be infiltrated on that first occasion, was a deceased, Mr Lanny Naidoo, any comment?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: It could be so Chairperson.  The information that I obtained was not with regard to names, I did not have any names.

MR MOERANE: And that is probably the occasion to which Mr Manzini is referring?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No Chairperson.   Mr Manzini would not have been used, it would have been Captain Mose, so in this instance which Mr Manzini refers to, was before the second incident, after the first incident.

MR MOERANE: Well, I suggest to you that Vlakplaas was not involved in that one, the one of the 5th of June, that is why it would have involved Mr Manzini and not Lieutenant Mose?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No Chairperson, definitely not.  It could be that there was some planning for the 5th, that you mention but I don't have dates, and I imagine that there we did make some arrangements and as far as I can recall the Vlakplaas members were there.  I cannot say specifically.

MR MOERANE: Well, I put it to you that between the 8th and the 12th, there was no aborted infiltration?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I think there was.

MR MOERANE: When, the 9th, 10th, 11th, when?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Between the 8th and the 12th, I don't remember exactly.

MR MOERANE: Well, I suggest to you that after the 8th you received information from Lieutenant Mose that if that infiltration was successful, the one of the 8th, then people would be sent through on Sunday, the 12th?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: As I have said earlier Chairperson, the information that I received from Mr Manzini or from Captain Mose rather,  was that they told him that they would use him again, but I cannot recall a date.   The information from the 12th, the infiltration, I received from the source.

MR MOERANE: Mr Theron, aren't you giving this evidence now in an attempt to protect Mr Manzini who has not made an application for amnesty?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Not at all Chairperson, I am only speaking the truth.

MR MOERANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Theron, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED