Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I can't remember whether it's a - is this now the stage after I had been found guilty or which stage are you referring to?

MR PHOSA: After you were found guilty.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, but there was another process - there was an appeal and after I had been sentenced I instituted an appeal, I filed an appeal.

MR PHOSA: As I understand that process, that charge, the conviction, the appeal had nothing to do with the present circumstances, you - as far as you were concerned you were - in the present case, you were not guilty, you were being accused falsely in that case.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I was found guilty in that case.

MR PHOSA: But as far as ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, I thought you're - maybe there's confusion, did you refer to the Goniwe case or the Motherwell?  You said - I thought you're referring to the Goniwe case and you said you were found guilty but you weren't found guilty in the Goniwe case.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not in the Goniwe case.

MR PHOSA: No, sorry.  In the Motherwell case as far as you are concerned, you are concerned you're being accused unfairly?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Well I was found guilty in the Motherwell case.

MR PHOSA: But you had an attitude in the case, you were pleading not guilty and your attitude was until conviction, I was not involved in this matter, they're telling lies about me.  Wasn't that your attitude?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that was my attitude but when this process of amnesty - but the process of amnesty was not ongoing at the stage when I had already pleaded.

MR PHOSA: Let me make you understand, I understand clearly that you are now applying for amnesty for that, I'm dealing with Nieuwoudt the person.  There you were being charged, you went up to the stage of appeal.  Your attitude was - unless there's something in my thinking, "Look, I didn't do this, I'm being accused falsely and now I'm being convicted wrongly, I am appealing because I didn't do it".  Wasn't that your attitude?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I took the decision in December to apply for this process whereas the process was not in operation initially and that is the reason why and I thought I had a chance, and that is so.

ADV SANDI: Which December are you talking about, December 1996 Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: But at that time the Amnesty Committee process was already in operation.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so Mr Chairperson but then I filed my application.

MR PHOSA: Let me make you understand me.  Much as I obviously need some information, my understanding of the situation is that you have applied now for amnesty regarding the Motherwell situation, isn't it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR PHOSA: You did so after you'd been convicted and after you'd - did you lodge an appeal?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I said, I had applied for appeal.

MR PHOSA: So I understand that but what I'm saying is this and I think it's quite clear, right up to the stage when you were appearing before court and going through the criminal process, rightly or falsely your attitude and as exhibited in court was: "I am innocent, I didn't do this".  Am I correct in saying that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so.

MR PHOSA: Even after the conviction, that was your attitude.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Now I know you're applying - are you saying you lied in court, you were lying as you were claiming innocence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Well then, it may have emerged and I missed it in the course of your evidence - it's quite possible, why then - about that Motherwell matter, were you being dishonest to the court?  Why at that stage you did not take the attitude, when you were being tried in the normal process, "Let me speak out now, now they've found me, let me speak out" - about the Motherwell case?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, as I said if we now look back, yes I had but when I was asked to plead the amnesty process was not in operation so there was no process for me, so I had to go through that and I was under the impression that there were no witnesses and the process only started in March but I had pleaded before March.

MR PHOSA: I am not dealing with amnesty, I'm dealing with you and your honesty and I'm asking you why you did not honestly tell a court of law: "Look, the game is up now, I did it"?  Why did you not tell the court of law so?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he just explained Mr Phosa? - because he thought there were no witnesses.

MR PHOSA: Oh, I missed that, sorry I missed that.  Oh, you thought there were no witnesses?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I believed that there was not adequate evidence for me to be found guilty.  Only at a later stage Eugene de Kock also became involved and this strengthened the State's case and that's my interpretation, my interpretation.  I'm not saying the perception of why I was found guilty, it's my perception.  I'm not saying that the judge was in error or that anybody was in error, it's my perception -  that's how I saw it.

MR PHOSA: Let's just go past that quickly.  You would never say the judge was in error because you did it.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MR PHOSA: But you see ...[intervention]

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: But if you talk at that stage Mr Chairperson ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: You thought that you could get away with it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: The true position is that it at that stage had nothing to do with Nuremberg - that stage, your fear was - it's gone, I don't think it's coming out - mine is not at least - mine is faulty.
	I was saying that I think your concern at the time - whilst you were going through the criminal action against you in the Motherwell case, was that you will be convicted, you might be convicted and if you were convicted you would bear the consequences of the conviction, that was your fear.  Put simply, that was your fear, that's why you lied?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson no, it may be so that I feared that this could happen but at that stage I believed that there was not adequate evidence against me.

MR PHOSA: You mean you believed there was not adequate evidence on which they could convict you because you did not want to be convicted.  You see I find it difficult - it's a very simple point, you did not want to be convicted, did you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR PHOSA: The next step is for all - we all know the reasons why people don't want to be convicted because if you are convicted you get sentenced.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR PHOSA: And you didn't want to be sentenced.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR PHOSA: I'm not sure in my mind now, at the time was there still the possibility that you could get death penalty?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: But you would stay in prison for quite a long time if you were convicted, you feared that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: And you'd be - you'd lose dignity, you're integrity would be - your lack of integrity would be exposed right through and you didn't want that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, it's not perception, I did it and I was found guilty and that is so.  And this process has now occurred and I have availed myself of the opportunity and I am using this opportunity to clean the slate of the conflict of the past.  And the present Government has created the opportunity and this is why I made use of this process.