Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: You see if she died of natural causes then she wasn't killed, then she died.  You say she killed and she died of unnatural causes.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I'm not sure of how she died but that thing can be clarified with people who are here and if really he was killed when he was ...(indistinct) at Springs then I can confirm it, but currently I'm not quite sure.

MS PATEL: You stated there that you were released from prison and then after that you state that regarding the self defence units the latter had no proper control and lack of co-ordination, led to sporadic attacks or during sporadic attacks led to internal fights.  Could you just give us just a little bit of background regarding those internal fights?  What were they about?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I don't have information of the internal fights that were taken place and earlier I made an example of SDU members moving from one section to the other and some will be concerned of why are they carrying guns, passing their section.  So there were so many internal conflicts which inside the township, so I'm not ...(intervention)

MS PATEL: Did those lead to power struggles within the organisation basically and not to the manner in which the SDU's were being run?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I wouldn't say it was power struggle, there was this belief that if self defence unit members roam around carrying guns in a section various - some people would know that ISU will immediately cover that section and people will be beaten, shot at and so that was the situation.

MS PATEL: Alright, just for clarity or completeness rather, you stated that you ordered the attack on the IFP members who participated in the funeral procession.  Can you be more specific as to whom you ordered?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I earlier say that I rounded every section commander in each and every part of the township and I'll normally work with members of the internal MK structure who were there and they assisted me in mobilising that attack and I cannot be specifically sure when I - who did I gave order but I only know the response of the whole operation because as I said earlier the attack took place and that was the last time the IFP passes through Khumalo.

ADV DE JAGER: Who led the attack, who was the leader in this attack?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: The people of Thokoza were the - if you ask me the situation of Thokoza, I will tell you I indicated earlier that every street had it's own.

ADV DE JAGER: So you commanded the people to attack.  Who did you tell "listen go in front, you start the shooting" or who started the shooting?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: It's unfortunate that here you are talking of a war situation that is not known to some of the members and the information they have it's documentation that he received from whoever was in ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Machitje the question is quite simple, it's got nothing to do with the fact that it happened in Thokoza or New Brighton or in Langa.  Who did you give the order to?
It's as simple as that.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Who did I?

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you give the order to?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I indicated that I rounded every section commander inside Thokoza and I gave an instruction that - and I cannot come out with names now, there are so many people who have applied and I'm quite sure you people have a list of commanders and the structure that is there.

ADV DE JAGER: You should make a full disclosure before us if you want amnesty and a full disclosure would include the names of those people you ordered to take up guns and shoot.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Well if that is the situation I'll say there was a structure that existed and among the people who I gave instruction there was an internal member of the MK unit, Seknini Morani and he made an application about his activities during the violence.  The other person that I want to mention his name is Lucky Sepe and he made an application about his activities.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel is there anything more?

MS PATEL: There's just one final aspect.  In your application you stated, in your application form page 19, 11 (b), 19 under 11(b).  In terms of the incident that you've applied for, if my understanding of your evidence is correct, you stated that you made the order, you gave the order on your own without authorization from above, yet here you mention the names of three people.  Would you like to clarify this for us please?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I received a letter from the TRC where I should mention names of my regional commanders and I mentioned those names because every region in this country had a regional MK commander and their instructions to me was to assist SDU's who with the know how and the training, because we had a problem of you'll find a forteen year old kid with an AK not knowing how to handle it so my regional commanders instructed me to make sure they get training and that training took place, it took place at Vosloorus Stadium and Ilinge High School there in Vosloorus.

MS PATEL: So you're saying that your response to 11(b) is in respect of your orders to generally assist with the SDU's in the area, not in relation to the specific incident for which you are applying?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

MS PATEL: You've mentioned in your further particulars, you've mentioned an extra person in the further particulars that you've supplied, that's Master Sisani, I imagine?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes, Master was one of the commanders.  When I first applied I didn't put all the names of the regional command because I thought if I say regional command it will be easy for investigators of the TRC to get those names because it was not a secret that there was a regional command in every region in this country.

MS PATEL: So you're saying you never included because you thought that we had the capacity to find it out?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Is that your explanation.  Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: John?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Machitje, now when you said you gave personal orders you actually meant that you gave other people orders prior to the attack, you did not give orders when the attack was done?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Are we talking about the funeral?

ADV MOTATA: That is correct.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes I gave orders prior to the attack.

ADV MOTATA: Did you know what time the funeral procession would go past Khumalo Street or along Khumalo Street?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I didn't know what the service of the funeral will start but immediately when the procession moved from the stronghold of IFP I monitored them and by then everybody was moving towards Beirut and Thokoza Garden and as I said earlier it was a well known thing inside Thokoza that there will be a funeral and possibly it can pass at this time, there will be an attack.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Isn't the structure of the SDU's that each section there would be a commander and there would concern themselves with the attacks in those areas or sections in which they are?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes it is true but with the situation inside Thokoza, here we talk of patterns which changed from time to time and when the central command was formed, the aim of that central command was to make sure that there is a coordination, a coordination where for an example if a serious attack is taking place inside Penduka.  Other commanders would be immediately contacted and informed that there is an attack inside Penduka and they will immediately instruct members of the SDU or select a few of them to move to go to Penduka and assist because here we are talking of a war situation that when the attack took place it will be a horrific attack that one will have thought it's a battle between two armies or two countries fighting each other.