Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-24

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: The mode of operation or the code of conduct was ...(indistinct), suggestions were made to the effect that all the people who were brought together were expected to conduct themselves in the manner in which I will explain, but just have to indicate now that not everything went according to plan.  These other applications will deal with other matters therefore would not go into detail.  The introduction indicated that anybody who committed himself to being a member should know that the self defence unit structure is meant to fight the people who were fighting the community and therefore the problem, I would say at the time when we were discussing we indicated that these are people that were undemocratic forces.  I spoke about the plan here earlier on.  This introduction was quite clear that when there comes a time for the takeover of government, these structures should come to an end.  That is one point that was part of the introduction.  One more the thing that we saw as important was that we decided that the SDU should not be seen as a private structure of a particular organisation, it should not be perceived as such.  It was not a private army but instead these SDU's should work responsibly, respecting people's opinions culturally speaking and conduct itself accordingly in a professional manner.  We also indicate here that people who are members should not use that position to achieve their personal goals.
	The fourth point here under this introduction is that these people are protecting the community in their different areas of abode therefore they should not harass the community that they are meant to serve.  We were also able to indicate that Thokoza should be divided into thirteen sections, Phola Park being the 14th Section.  We went on to say that each section should have a commander as indicated in the map behind me and this very same commander will come together with other commanders where we as leaders in the community are going to get together.  In other words, in this structure I was representing the ANC and Mr Luisibego represented the Civic Association.  There were also other different community organisations like those who were representing the youth.  We used to meet together on Tuesdays in the evenings, every Tuesday.  There are certain assignments to each of these structures.  Among these assignments we were expecting each structure to have a coordinator.  We had Chichela Machitje has our coordinator, I think he too has submitted his application for amnesty.  He was our co-ordinator.  We also had an overall commander and his deputy, Bonga Nkosi and Lucky are the names.  I will give you the names of the other commanders later.  I am trying to illustrate here that each one of these sections was represented like different community organisations.  For example we had to send at least delegates or five etc.  At least two but the maximum was five and in these meetings or this meeting we would get together.  Some would attend and some not and one other thing is that we were dividing these activities from co-ordination to finances and each one person had to be in charge of these areas.  Ammunition had to be bought, one AK bullet used to cost R3,00 at the time and matters pertaining to finance etc were important and we also had to take care and ensure that we do not lose are arms unnecessarily so that we had an audit conducted.  We communicated and made sure that people are armed to protect themselves and we also had a manner of reporting things, the public relations activity.  We had to explain things should there be any questions arising so that the people who were relaying information would not ask for us, they would write whatever they were writing down and later on it would be possible for us to explain whatever needed explanation.  Another important factor here is that among the problems that we had we would get together, if the community came complaining about something they would come directly to us and we tried all in our best to solve those problems.  These would be problems effecting some of our members etc.  I indicated earlier on that it is not everything that went well as expected and therefore I am saying that some of these applications will explain these things.  
	Now one other thing is that insofar as armed struggles and nobody had his own personal ownership of a weapon, that is weapons that were bought using the money donated by the community.  Therefore these weapons were community property, each one of these people knew that the arms were not theirs.  We also emphasised the importance to the effect that no member of the committee or the self defence unit who should conduct his work drunk.  We included this here as part of the things that we were discussing so that anybody who committed himself to the work should do as expected or carried themselves as expected.
	One other thing is that no weapon in possession of SDU member should be used in harassing the community and we equally felt that we had to have knowledge as to how firearms were brought into the township etc.  We wanted to avoid problems.  We were also very critical of people walking around with their AK47's hanging around their bodies like a handbag.  That we discouraged, that was not something to be displayed or exhibited to a girlfriend etc.  These are some of the things that were important to us, these things had to be concealed because even a small child can see if a person is walking around carrying a firearm and it would later on be very difficult on our part to explain these things.
	One other thing was the firearm is a treasure insofar as protecting the community is concerned therefore people should not use these firearms negligently, not lose them either but instead a person should have a harbinger, a person that would go in front to assess the situation and inform him timeously in case there is a problem like the presence of police.  The situation was such that even if there was a suspicion to the effect that the police were involved we had to be very careful about that, protect ourselves because the police also confiscated these firearms, but we never knew where they took these firearms to therefore the safety of the firearm was important.  It was not permissable for a person to just shoot for the pleasure of it, just shoot in the air, that is in the community, that was not permissable and also anybody under the age of eighteen was not permitted to carry a firearm because the question of age and war effected the growth of these people.  We requested that to those people who had firearms we had to ascertain that no persons under the age of eighteen were to go around carry firearms and one other thing, if we knew that somebody is a full time member of the structure, we would permit such a person to make use of a firearm.  Another important aspect here is that insofar as the harassment of the community people at the hands of the police informers, we had to advise people on how to handle such situations in instances where they suspected person to be an informer.  We had to educate them on what steps to take before talking to a supposed informer or a suspected informer.  	We also had to make sure that everything that we did was taken to the central command level so that the person who was gathering information in our intelligence desk, he had to be somebody who would verify information because there would be some instances where people would fight over girlfriends and turn the information around thereafter and therefore all the members of the self defence units had to be able to gather information if a person had evidence about a certain information, that was important.
	We were equally concerned and we made sure that it should be the executive that would follow a matter up and verify whatever information gathered because yes, we were aware there were instances where people would fight over personal differences and therefore we wanted to create enough room for evidence that would be tangible before a step could be taken.  	And one other thing is that no member was allowed to say to another SDU member "you are a police informer" etc. and refer to other people as "Umgluembe", that was not permissable.  So that all the reports insofar as suspicions were concerned had to be brought to the central committee or command.  Yes, some barricades were placed at some point because we had to search cars and frisk people.  People had to be educated on this because some of these barricades happened in the absence of the leadership.  We had to explain to the SDU members and others so that they knew exactly what to do and when.  We had also requested that if a car had to be searched or a house people should not be harassed.  Doors should not be broken down, people should be talked to in a civil manner and in addition, a woman could not be frisked by a male therefore this respect was important.  If a male suspected a woman to be carrying something he should organise and make sure that a woman is present to frisk the other woman.
	One other thing is that people should not point firearms at other people.  A firearm is not a decor, it's not something to decorate with but instead a lethal weapon.  People should not just point firearms at other people because that was a criminal activity on it's own and if, let us say person is searching a wardrobe in a house and say a person is searching the boot of a car, the things should be brought back into the boot of the car orderly and in the same manner in which they were organised before taking them out.  We had also requested the people that if it so happens that the search comes to an end, whether a person has been able to get whatever he was looking for from the car or whatever or not, apologies should be appropriate for having wasting a person's time.
	Another point here, refers to the barricades in the roads and the streets, we have indicated here that it was important that when roads are being barricaded, people should barricade the roads in such a way that they should remain on the scene and watch over the barricade.  You should know that you have put it in place and you will go into hiding but still looking after it so that when you realise that this is not a person who is attacking you should remove it so that the person can pass.  It so happened in many times in the past that this thing of judging others racially and referring to people as Xhosas and Zulus, that shall be discouraged.  You shall not block people and ask them what language do they use and if it's a Zulu or a Xhosa then you shoot.  So it was important that we put this straightforward that that must not be exercised.  Even if a white man comes in, he is not an enemy so that actions must not or rather drastic actions must not be taken against that person because if we operated in that way we would have killed everybody, even relatives.
	And lastly, according to the police way we did explain that according to the soldiers and police, they should try in every manner they could that a police and a soldier, these are the people who have been trained, trained professionally.  We are faced here with murderers and harassment in the community so that we shall respect the presence of the police.  When the police are seen around, we shall give them way because police are professionally trained, they knew what they were doing better than us but then that does not mean or suggest that I am disregarding the fact that the ISU patrolling between Buthelezi and Madonda Streets being an area which was separating the location and the hostel, there were fights or war that erupted there and those were the no go areas so that when they see any person around there who will be killed and I think the police would testify to this but it was a war situation, then those were the no go areas and police were being shot at as well.  Phola Park, the soldiers were being shot at as well but then, according to the code, we explained it in such a way that they should not portray themselves negatively so that we end up losing weapons and losing them.  That was the main point we're trying to emphasise that when you come across a soldier you must know your business because that person has been trained professionally, better than you and you are not capable to perform to an extent which he can because he has been trained well and is very much conversant with the use of weapons better than an ordinary civilian.
	The other points that I've written behind this page that I'd like to illustrate, I started with the coordinators aspect.  I omitted the communication one and I also omitted the logistic aspect of it and finally I omitted the intelligence or information as to how people were informed but to add into those points, I would like to highlight that even us tried all we could so that we gather all the information to see that we take steps in defending ourselves appropriately.  So there was a unit or there was a suggestion that everybody was in a position to collect or gather information but then there was a major person to do that and according to the units there was a relevant unit to oversee this.  
	It was also noted that all the community areas shall be defended or protected accordingly and if there would be an attack in some area the issue will be possible for people to have access to the weapons.  This is as far as logistics is concerned and according to communication at times we encountered problems of telephones not being working and also of walkie talkies and whistle's as well, that's how we communicated with one another and the way we were working around all this we brought this to the attention of the people and we requested their co-operation and when we go to the other applications, it will surface accordingly that this is what happened and you will have a better and a clear understanding since I've already laid the foundation.
	Another thing, I did promise that I will render the whole work of the structure as in Annexure 4, there appears the names of all the people who were active in the structure and I've already highlighted before that as the people who were representing the community we used to allocate people maybe in twos or five and secondly all the sections according to their division they had to have their own commanders and overlook at the situation and Bonga Nkosi was the overall commander and the two IC's second in command was Michael Sebe and in logistics we have Sidney Sepiwe and the secretary of the structure was Seko Thulo and all the sections from Mandela section, the first one, we had Bonga Nkosi, at Slovo Tambo that is Penduka area, we had Moses Kubega and we also had Wanda Umgumeso Zulu Mabaso and such and sometimes you will have found that people will exchange duty and assist somewhere else and in Sisulu, we had Phineas Shabalala, Thabo Mdisi and in Lusaka A we had ...(indistinct) as well as Sipho Mgubane and in B we had Tambo, he is deceased he died in 1994 and Kathrade, we had Thabo Xhosa and in Extension 2 we had Menier Patrick Ngube, we had Ben Mashineni and has died since, in 1995.  In Thokoza Gardens or Joe Modise we had Mishek Sedise.  In Extension 5 we had Alfred Lamlensi and Sylvester Ngwangwa and in Phola Park we had Kaiser Pagati and died in 1998 and in Langeni we had Gwambi and in Beirut we had Sipho Galu and Gailitsi Paiko.  In Extension 1 we had Sepiwe Mgume Zulu.  All these sections had their representatives so that they should represent people in meetings.
	Finally I will say in all our endeavours when the violence was at it's peak, there would be meetings where we'll ascertain as to who got injured and who will even try to get doctors to enlist some help and one other thing is that whenever one got hurt it will not be easy to take the person to the hospital because sometimes we will be arrested.  So people were arrested and it was important that each time we gather and talk we should try all we can to secure legal representations for such people who got arrested.  Sadly people were dying.  The SDU members, that is, that's where we had to ensure because at one time we could not even conduct funerals because they were dying so much in numbers and in Annexure 6 - in Annexure 5, there is an example here that I wanted to put across because there was a section commander in Tambo Slovo by the name of Wanda Mgume Zulu, got out of his home and his entire family was killed, he is left with no one as we speak.  The way it seems he got out of the house trying to run away and they killed the entire family, grannies and the brothers, everybody in the family was killed and in Annexure 6 we are trying also to illustrate other incidents there that with regard to the SDU members directly with the problem that was encountered.  The community at large and the children thereof, to lose life and the way it happened in Thokoza in 1982, after 1984, there was a time that struck where people who were being evicted from the residential area of Thokoza, Kathlehong and Vosloorus ...(indistinct) were so many in number and friends who will not go and identify and fetch the corpses from the mortuary in Germiston because they were packed like sardines, one corpse on top of the other.  You will go to identify a corpse in the mortuary, for you to be in a better position to identify at the mortuary, to identify the corpse that is, you would have to shift other corpses that will be lying on top of the other corpses because they were packed like sardines.  You will have to remove other corpses which were lying on top of the other corpse and other people could not bear that experience and I want to estimate about 500 corpses which were never fetched at all.  The Thokoza area only, we have about more than 200 corpses which were buried with no identification at all.
	In unit F when the violence erupted people were leaving the area.  Some people were killed in their own homes without knowledge of neighbours that there are people who died there.  The area was so much isolated and there were no people living there, you'll just see a dog dragging a dead body into the street from the house and you will realise that that person died long time ago.  Now when you take a look at Annexure 9 you realise so much more as to the situation that prevailed at the time.  Human life was nothing, was valueless.  
	To proceed, when we get to Annexure 10 now, we were trying to gather information that will enlighten the Commission as the fact that the police failed to do their part of defending the community together with the soldiers.  What used to happen was this, they will help a person to leave his or her home, they will escort you particularly so to leave your home.  They will take you to a strange place and help you leave your own home.  It so happened in 1993 ...(intervention)