Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

PROF DE KOKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, but as I understand Mr Smiles, he's referring to the Skippa as a T-shirt which had even less space for hiding this than his shirt.

CHAIRPERSON: You really - you don't know what you're talking about Professor de Koker, and I don't know what the witness is talking about.  How can you say - make that statement, please?  How can you say that that T-shirt would have had less room?  Do you know that skippa, have you seen it?

PROF DE KOKER: The witness was asked yesterday what he was wearing, he said it was a T-shirt - skippa and  I assumed that he was referring to a T-shirt.  He also said that he wasn't wearing anything over this T-shirt.  I want to determine these facts because I want to return to them later.  I would like to continue with Mr Smiles' application and I refer the Committee to the first bundle, page 13.
	In the middle of the page Mr Smiles, you give the following explanation:
"On the 24th of May 1993, the commander Laurens Mbatha, gave me a hand grenade and instructed me to throw it into the Trust Bank building where the Bophuthatswana Representative would stand"
Mr Smiles, was this the instruction you got?

WALTER SMILES: Just explain this again please.

PROF DE KOKER: In your statement - in your amnesty application, which is in front of you now
"The commander Laurens Mbatha, gave me a hand grenade and instructed me to throw it into the Trust Bank building where the Bophuthatswana Representative would stand"
The instruction according to your own application, was that you had to throw this hand grenade there to where the Bophuthatswana Representative would be standing, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

PROF DE KOKER: And then you continue
"I did in fact to what I was instructed to do"
You did what you were told to do.
"I threw the hand grenade towards the door at the Trust Bank where the Bophuthatswana Representative and Mr Uys were standing and thereafter I ran away"
So,  you did as you were instructed to do, you threw the hand grenade to the door where the Bophuthatswana Representative and Mr Uys was standing, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: I don't know Mr Uys.

PROF DE KOKER: Who is this Mr Uys that you refer to in the application?

WALTER SMILES: I don't know a Mr Uys.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Smiles, this is your sworn statement.  In your statement you mention a name - it appears to me you were told to say various things in this application, if you don't Mr Uys or don't recognise his name.

WALTER SMILES: I just want to think very clearly about it.

ADV DE JAGER: You must come with the whole truth now, did somebody tell you what to do or not?

WALTER SMILES: Please explain it to me again.

ADV DE JAGER: You mention a name, a Mr Uys in your own statement and now you're telling this Committee you don't know a Mr Uys.

WALTER SMILES: That is correct, this thing was drawn up by Rodney Isaacs - I don't know a Mr Uys, I was just given the instruction.   I don't know a Mr Uys, I was just given the instruction, I didn't know these people.

ADV DE JAGER: But you signed this statement under oath and you said this was the truth?

WALTER SMILES: Mr de Jager, Mr Isaacs will be able to explain this, I can't explain it - I didn't type or write this.

ADV DE JAGER: So this statement of yours is not correct?

WALTER SMILES: I'm not saying it's not correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You're throwing this hand grenade and you're throwing it at the Bophuthatswana Representative and there's a man next to him and that is Mr Uys.

WALTER SMILES: I wasn't told that the grenade had to hit Mr Uys, I had to throw it inside the Trust Bank building.  This Mr Uys I don't know at all, Mr Isaacs must be asked about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Koker?

PROF DE KOKER: You also said it had to go inside the building, there where the Bophuthatswana Representative was standing.  You've just said that that was your instruction and that was your instruction, it had to go right inside where the Bophuthatswana Representative was standing.  The instruction you got yesterday that nobody get hurt, wasn't correct.  The instruction was in fact that you had to throw the hand grenade where the Bophuthatswana Representative was standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, that's not what it says, it says
"Throw at the building where the man would stand"
You see there's a difference because this could be a description of the building - by saying to throw the hand grenade at a building where the Bophuthatswana man would stand, you describe the building to distinguish it from other buildings in the city of Kimberley.

PROF DE KOKER: Quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[indistinct] this does not say: "Throw the hand grenade where the representative would stand" but:  "Throw the hand grenade at the building where the man would stand" - you describe the building.

PROF DE KOKER: That would be a correct interpretation of this first sentence but unfortunately, then it goes on to say
"I did in fact to what I was instructed to do, I threw the hand grenade towards the door at the Trust Bank building"
And as far as I know, there's only one Trust Bank building in Kimberley.
"I threw it towards the door of the Trust Bank building where the Bophuthatswana Representative and Mr Uys were standing"
	He therefore identifies the particular building and then said he threw it towards the door of this particular building where the Bophuthatswana Representative and Mr Uys were standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what I'm saying, I'm saying it's a description of the building.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, I differ from my colleague here, I think it couldn't be a description of the building, the description of the building is put down as Trust Bank building.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Professor de Koker, wouldn't you say that would be the description of the particular entrance of the Trust Bank building where the hand grenade had to be thrown?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, why doesn't the sentence just say: "Throw the hand grenade where the Bophuthatswana man will be standing?

PROF DE KOKER: As far as I know, the Trust Bank building has only one entrance.

CHAIRPERSON: Or you could say: "Throw the hand grenade where the Bophuthatswana person will be standing", which would be the Trust Bank building.

CHAIRPERSON: Or just say: "Throw the hand grenade at the representative who will be at the Trust Bank building" - that's really how you read it.

PROF DE KOKER: There are ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Look, are you reading this sentence to say that: "Your instructions was to throw the hand grenade at the Bophuthatswana Representative", is that how you read it?

PROF DE KOKER: Yes, yes I do and I believe that is a valid interpretation of that sentence because the particular building is identified twice - to throw it into the Trust Bank building.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not even prepared to concede that there is some ambiguity?

PROF DE KOKER: Unfortunately not, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, one member of the Committee agrees with you, two don't agree with you but you can proceed.  You can put whatever questions you want to put, you can argue that later on.  You can put your questions as if we did not say that there is some ambiguity, you can put your questions on the basis that you are right.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Smiles, what then was your particular instruction which you complied with?

WALTER SMILES: The instruction I got was nobody had to get hurt, the purpose was that it had to go inside the Trust Bank building, that was what the instruction was but I had to wait for the march to return to go home - that was the signal to throw the hand grenade.

PROF DE KOKER: At that stage, there was a least one person that we know of inside the building and that was the security guard, how did you follow your instruction that the security guard should not be hurt?