Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

MRS SIBIYA: No, they were not physically injured but the other one I think is psychologically affected or disturbed because after their father's death just after the funeral, each time this child sees a white car he or she runs after that white car saying: "Here comes my father".
	As long as there is a white car that is travelling along the streets she chases after the car.  I would like to get some help with regard to that.  I do not know what to do with Mabena, Mkhwanazi and Gushu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Sibiya, are you looking after those children now?

MRS SIBIYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So that if the Committee needs to contact anybody in respect of the welfare of those children, are you the person that they must contact?

MRS SIBIYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What address would that be?

MRS SIBIYA: It's number 18, Tunner Road.

CHAIRPERSON: Spell that please.

MRS SIBIYA: T-U-N-N-E-R.

CHAIRPERSON: T-U-N-N-E-R Road.

MRS SIBIYA: Yes.  Empangeni.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I have no questions.  Perhaps I would just like to ask the witness whether she has something more to say.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll do that.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, then no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: I assume there is nobody else that wants to ask this witness questions.
	Mrs Sibiya, is there anything else you would like to say?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your interest in the matter.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  With your permission, Matthew Gwala.  He is the brother of the deceased, Advice Gwala.  The reason why I'm calling on him is not as a victim but as on the merits of the matter.  With him too I don't believe that we are going to be spending a lot of time.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he present?

MR HATTINGH: Not at the incident, no Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So how can it effect the merits?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, on the basis of the motive, the alleged motive.  If - Mr Chairman, I am in your hands, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate your position, you've probably been, for what of a better word: "harassed" to allow the evidence. You know one gets tangled in the law and not everybody understands the law and this is specifically for victims and in the case of the deceased Mr Gwala we have established who those victims are and we have had a witness on behalf of those three children.
	How long is he going to be?  I don't know why he wants to come and testify.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I don't think we're going to spend more that five or ten minutes with him.  I really think that we're not going to serve a good purpose if we keep them away from getting things off their chest.

CHAIRPERSON: Call him, call him.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwala, what language would you prefer to speak?

MATTHEW GWALA: siZulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, do you have any objection to the taking of the oath?

MATTHEW GWALA: (sworn states)

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gwala, is it correct that you are the brother of the late Advice Gwala and that you attended this hearing and you listened to all the evidence of the applicants?

MATTHEW GWALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Is it further correct that prior to the incident where your brother got killed, that you stayed with him for a period at his house?

MATTHEW GWALA: Yes, that is correct.  As Gushu led his evidence he knows us very well, we were together at Mbalendle.  He died after only two months whilst I was in Empangeni.

MR HATTINGH: Were you still staying with your brother, Advice Gwala, when he got killed?

MATTHEW GWALA: I had already left.  I left in August and he died during November, I think it was the 4th of November.

MR HATTINGH: Can you just briefly give this Committee some indication as to what the situation was in that particular area where Advice Gwala lived during that period?

MATTHEW GWALA: It's shocking to hear that there was violence at Mbalendle.  At that stage there was absolutely no violence at Mbalendle.  What was there at Mbalendle was that the people were mixing and they had absolutely no problem, there was no violence.  Maybe what disturbed members of the community was that other people suspected each other insofar as politics were concerned but these was absolutely no violence at Mbalendle.  It was a relatively quiet place.
	The only problem with Mbalendle was thugism or gangsterism and that would happen during the night not during the day.  Gushu himself knows that we used to move around, go to shebeens, drink, have a wonderful time.  
	I met Gushu through Raymond Bopela, that is where Advice Gwala was staying, at Bopela's place.  During those days I was not employed so they used to buy liquor for me because they were working and we had absolutely no problem.  
	At times we would visit different places and now he is denying that he knows my brother.  It came as a shock to me.

MR HATTINGH: So you say that Gushu did know your brother, Advice Gwala, before he killed him?

MATTHEW GWALA: He knew him very well.

MR HATTINGH: The role that your brother played in the area, you've heard all the allegations of his involvement in the friction that occurred in the area, what are your comments in that regard?

MATTHEW GWALA: These are blue lies.  I won't put it in any other manner as to say it was a mistake.  It's just a blue lie.  As I've already explained that Mbalendle never had a problem at any stage so Gushu was telling lies.
	All the evidence that he rendered was lies and my brother's never been involved in Black Chain gang, I don't even know those Black Chain gangs.  I used to be with my brother every time and everywhere.  
	At times we would go to meetings that were addressed by Mr Mabena.  It never ever happened that he got involved with the Black Chain gang.  He was involved with UWUSA at one stage and I told him that he should stop being involved in politics, he should just look for a job and he ended up working for a company that was based in Pretoria.  I think he was working at Evander.

MR HATTINGH: Nevertheless, was Advice Gwala involved in politics at the time?

MATTHEW GWALA: He was a member of Inkatha but due to the fact that Mbalendle was not active he was also rendered inactive.

MR HATTINGH: You've heard the motive for the killing of your brother, do you have any comments in that regard?  Just briefly.

MATTHEW GWALA: All the evidence that Gushu rendered with regard to the VAT boycott, that is a blue lie because he never did that.  He never at any stage advocated for the payment of VAT.  Maybe Gushu could tell us more with regard to that.
	I think Gushu has got a personal problem with Advice Gwala because Gushu knew my brother very well but all of a sudden when he renders his evidence he claims that he never knew my brother.  
	That is what makes me believe that the there was absolutely no political motive or objective because if Gushu said he was sent by a political group because maybe they feared that he was going to rally people to join Inkatha, but now he's talking about VAT matters and he testified to the effect that he does not know Advice Gwala, that's a blue lie.

ADV SANDI: Are you going to be asking a question on a different aspect?

MR HATTINGH: No, Mr Chairman, I have finished my questions but once again I would just like to ask you to terminate the examination of the witness, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions from others?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, there's just something I want to clear up.
	Mr Gwala, this evidence which you've just given to the Committee now about Mr Gushu knowing your brother very well and socialising on occasions with him, did you tell this to Mr Hattingh?

MATTHEW GWALA: No, I never told him because I never got a chance to consult with Mr Hattingh because the session had already started when I came.