Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

MR PIGOU: We know that it may have been policy, it is policy also not to torture people, but we know these things have happened, do you think in the light of the acrimonious relationship which we spoke about last year, that information may well have been withheld from Mr Dempsey during the course of his investigation?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I do not believe that this information would have been withheld from Col Dempsey.

MR PIGOU: With regards to the totality of the transcripts that were made, the tapes of Mrs Mandela and other people, you also indicated to me that that information had been destroyed. Is that the case?  During the same conversation, that was.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: At this stage most of the things have been destroyed. There is nothing more in existence, except in certain cases.

MR PIGOU: Now perhaps you could enlighten us on how that happened, because you have indicated that you were working with the Soweto security branch until 1996. I didn't believe the security branch was still in existence then, but until 1996.  Could you perhaps provide us with some detail about how that information got to be destroyed?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Instructions were received that all documents had to be destroyed, and this is what we did. Everything was shredded or burnt.

MR PIGOU: And where did that instruction come from?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I accepted that it was from head office.

MR PIGOU: And who did you actually receive the instruction from inside the Soweto security branch?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I think it was from Brig Van der Merwe, who informed us to destroy these documents.

MR PIGOU: Can you perhaps enlighten us as to when that happened? Which year?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: That was in - that was just before the elections.

MR PIGOU: So end of 1993, beginning of 1994?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Ja.

MR PIGOU: Somewhere around that time?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes.

MR PIGOU: Okay. You indicated in your statement that you were aware of interaction between the security branch and National Intelligence. Is that correct?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes.

MR KEMP: Could you tell us the nature of this interaction?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: The purpose of (sensor)? censor? method was that all information that I had obtained from tapping, I had to convey to information components in Soweto and this was also done by Intelligence as well as the information leg of the security branch.

MR PIGOU: And do you recall who the contact person was, the main person from National Intelligence who was dealing with Soweto Security Branch?  And I would like you to, if  you can recall, focus your attention on the '88, '89 period and subsequently through to 1990, 1991, I am wanting you to think around the time period that Mrs Mandela was being investigated in connection with the Stompie Seipei case.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairperson, I think that we have the whole thing wrong here.  It wasn't National Intelligence, it was the Information Intelligence leg of the security branch.  We did national intelligence in another way with people in whom they were interested.

MR PIGOU: And how did you assist them in that way?  I mean, I want to get through this quite quickly, but I just want to know if you had dealings with National Intelligence.  If your office had dealings with National Intelligence, who was the person in National Intelligence that you had dealings with?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairperson, it was also one of their technical officers.

MR PIGOU: Did you have any dealings at all, your unit in terms of the information you passed with Section (c)(4) of the Security Branch, the counter-revolutionary task team, information intelligence task team?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: No.

MR PIGOU: Are you aware of this structure inside the Security Branch?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I was never interested in them.

MR PIGOU: You didn't receive specific information or requests to specifically look for certain people relating to structures, vehicles or personalities in terms of the information you were listening to, on your telephone tapping service?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: This was only information that Col Watermeyer requested from me, and all information was passed through to his unit.  What he did further with the information I don't know.

MR PIGOU: Two last issue areas.  The first is opinions that I need from you.  You have told us that you recorded telephone conversations which indicated or clearly showed that Mrs Mandela was present during the time period that she says that she was in Brandfort, around the Stompie Seipei case.  Were you surprised that this information was never used in terms of the prosecution against Mrs Mandela?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I can just say that at one stage they said that the information was too sensitive to use.  They did not want to make the information public.

MR PIGOU: I mean it would seem also from the context of our conversations, that - in last year - there was a considerable amount of information around Mrs Mandela, and please correct me if I am wrong, and that there seemed to be some level of protection for Mrs Mandela, in terms of not pursuing prosecutions against her. Would you agree that that was the impression that was created?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I also reached that - I always reached the conclusion that the people were afraid of her.

MR PIGOU: Which people were afraid of her?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: The whole country was scared of her.

MR PIGOU: Was this discussed amongst yourselves in the security branch?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes, the members did discuss that.

MR PIGOU: So if we received information in this Commission that the security branch did everything they could to try and deal with Mrs Mandela, to try and get prosecutions against her, would you agree that that was the case?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: As I heard this morning, and as we know, investigations were launched but nothing came of it.

MR PIGOU: Where do you personally rest the responsibility for nothing happening in this regard?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: If the Attorney-General refused to prosecute, then nobody could have done anything. We were powerless, we didn't know what to do.

MR PIGOU: This issue area now, I have to - the last issue area, and I have to remind you, Mr Bosman, that you are under oath. You will recall that we were together on an investigations in 1995 into gross human rights violations in the Vaal Triangle?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: That is correct.

MR PIGOU: Against the Murder and Robbery Unit where we came across numerous cases of electric shock torture and so forth. During your time in the Soweto Security Branch, did you have either any direct or indirect knowledge of gross human rights violations in terms of torture, assault, extra-judicial executions or anything of that nature?  Did you hear anything in relation to that? Now we know of the Van As story.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Allegations were made that people were tortured and cases also investigated against me as well, but the Attorney-General refused to prosecute any of them.

MR PIGOU: Yes but do you believe, do you believe, and I am not talking about the cases specifically against you, do you believe that torture took place and was conducted by members of the Soweto Security Branch?  Do you believe that that happened? I mean, we have heard evidence in front of this Commission that there was systemic abuse throughout the country.  Do you believe that there was systemic abuse or are we talking about the old rotten apple syndrome?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: It could have happened, but it has never been proven.

MR PIGOU: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Richards, are you going to do this every time, are you?