Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-04

MR SHANE: My next applicant Mr Chairman, is Mduduzi Moses Kubeka.  His application appears on page 15.  The application number is AM7662/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kubeka, which language would you prefer to use?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: Zulu.

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: (sworn states)

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Kubeka, are you also known as Blah?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you confirm his identity number please Mr Shane?

MR SHANE: Mr Kubeka, please correct me if I am wrong, is this your identity number, 551006 5258 08 2?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: Yes, those numbers are correct.

MR SHANE: Your answer to my first question that you are also known as Blah, did you say yes?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: The previous applicant, that is Mr Dlamini, Solomon Dlamini, indicated to us that you were his Commander, is that correct?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: He further testified to the effect that you issued out instructions that Kliprivier police station had to be robbed, is that correct?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: He further stated that there were six of you and you were all armed, is that correct?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: He said that had there been any resistance from the police officers at that police station, you would have force to an extent that your aim was to go back to the township with those arms and ammunitions, do you confirm that?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: That is correct.

MR SHANE: He further stated that you remained outside with three others, whilst he and Themba Sibeko went in and assaulted the said officers and robbed them of the firearms.  Do you associate yourself with those activities?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: Very much so.

MR SHANE: He said those arms were given over to you and you in turn, in return you distributed those arms to the community, do you confirm that?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: Yes, I took these firearms and handed them over to the soldiers to protect the community.

MR SHANE: Do you confirm any other thing that he said in as far as it relates to you?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: Yes.

MR SHANE: Is there anything that you would want to add that you think he might have left out in his evidence?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: No.

MR SHANE: If you were to know the police officers that were harassed or that were attacked on that particular day, will you take that opportunity to reconcile with them?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: Very much so.

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Kubeka, in your application form you talk of general defensive actions and I assumed that this particular one you have just dealt with one of many, are you going to supplement as the Commander of a particular area, are you going to be supplementing your current application at all, you know vis-a-vis the other things that you may have done.  Your name has come up quite a few times and I don't know if you know the detail of those particular applications, and whether you are intending in this general application of yours, to mention those incidents as well?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: What I can say something that may not be part of this form, is that I was a Commander of the soldiers.  We were at a battle field.  If one were a Commander, there is, I can say there is nothing specific that I can refer to.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware of any details of other incidents which you may have ordered some of your soldiers to commit?  Can you remember?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: No.  I cannot remember.  It has been a long time now.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I accept that.  You see, I just want to point out to you that there are other applicants who testified here about incidents that they had committed and they have also said that you were the Commander of that Unit.
	They may not have said that there was a plan or a meeting in which you were present, where they decided to do certain things, so I am not too sure, whether you were involved in such incidents or not.  I thought it best to raise it with you, just in case you - you've got an opportunity now to apply for those.  If you were not involved, then so be it.
	I don't know if your Attorney wants a few minutes to check with you.

MR SHANE: I would appreciate that very much Mr Chairman.
Mr Chairman, I have consulted my client and my instructions are that as far as he knows, there are no other incidents where he issued out commands, except for this one.  He remembers this one very well.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kubeka, you seem to have been a respected leader in a small way there in Tokoza.  What seems to be the situation there now as far as fighting and violence is concerned?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: The situation is very acceptable.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any chance of a repeat of this, there?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: No, that will never occur ever, because the situation is under a watchful eye now.

CHAIRPERSON: And the lessons that had been learnt from them, are they such that one can avoid a repetition of this problem?

MDUDUZI MOSES KUBEKA: Yes, they are our brothers.  We are living together.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED