Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

MR KNOETZE: You were also looking specifically for illegal firearms which might be in the possession of those who would be apprehended by the roadblock?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, that was also part of the operation, to look for firearms and ammunition.

MR KNOETZE: And he said that it was said to them that at all costs it should be prevented that those arms be used against innocent whites by the people carrying them or otherwise that you yourselves should use them during the revolution.

DEON MARTIN: Correct.

MR KNOETZE: Were there vehicles which were apprehended before the Cressida and the Ballade which were stopped and searched and of which the passengers were questioned?  You've answered yes.

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Why were those people let go?

DEON MARTIN: Various vehicles were stopped, I can't exactly remember how many and the questions were: "To which political party do you belong"? and not one of them stated that they belonged to the ANC.  Our targets were people who belonged to the ANC/SACP Alliance, for example one vehicle that we stopped stated that they belonged to Inkatha and we let them go.  Our target was the ANC/SACP Alliance members.

MR KNOETZE: So that would answer my next question.  Why did you decide to make targets out of those in the Cressida and the Ballade, was that because they were members of the ANC/SACP Alliance?

DEON MARTIN: Upon my question they confirmed that they were members of the ANC/SACP Alliance.

MR KNOETZE: Who then decided that that specific group of people would be the target for the evening?

DEON MARTIN: Kloppers and I discussed the issue and called everyone together and after we had formed the group, we formed the lineage and we fired at them.

MR KNOETZE: Are you sure of that fact?  Was every applicant physically present or was it simply a core group?

DEON MARTIN: I would rather say that it was a core group of the members, I can't say exactly who were physically present.

MR KNOETZE: Because my client, Mr van der Schyff says that another applicant came to him and told him to prepare because they would be shooting.

DEON MARTIN: I cannot answer that.

MR KNOETZE: You have already testified that you fired a shot and that that shot was meant as a signal or an order to commence with the rest of the actions.

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There are two question which were asked of you, was it an order to the others to commence the firing?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, I would have fired the first shot and then it would have indicated to the others to commence with the shooting.

MR KNOETZE: You would have fired the shot and that shot would have served as an order to others to commence with the shooting?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR KNOETZE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOETZE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Martin, I'm going to put my questions in English for the benefit of those I represent but please answer in Afrikaans.  You are relying on orders which you were told had come from General Oelofse?

DEON MARTIN: I didn't hear that question.

MR BRINK: No, you answer in Afrikaans please.
EXPLANATION OF CHANNELS

MR BRINK: You are relying on orders which Kloppers told you came from General Oelofse?  You tell the Committee that you were relying on order which Mr Kloppers had told you had come from General Oelofse, correct?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR BRINK: What would your attitude be if General Oelofse were to tell the Committee that he never gave such orders?

DEON MARTIN: I carried out the orders given by General Kloppers who was my supreme commander at that point.

MR BRINK: But you'd had a few drinks, all of you had a few drinks, can you tell me what you drank, where you drank it and how much you drank?

DEON MARTIN: I've stated that I had one drink and that's all.

MR BRINK: What was the nature of that drink?

DEON MARTIN: I think it was whisky.

MR BRINK: Did you have it neat or with water or soda?

DEON MARTIN: With water.

MR BRINK: Do you remember what the others had?

DEON MARTIN: It was the same, it was one bottle.

MR BRINK: Was there brandy involved as well?

DEON MARTIN: Not as far as I can recall.

MR BRINK: Were you at any stage under the influence of liquor?

DEON MARTIN: No.

MR BRINK: And to your knowledge, were any of your colleagues under the influence of liquor?

DEON MARTIN: No.

MR BRINK: I want to pass onto another matter.  You were told that the revolution would start countrywide, that is as I understand it a revolution which in the main would involved members of the AWB?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR BRINK: And that this revolution would be countrywide?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct, those were the orders.

MR BRINK: Now we know that the AWB were fairly strong in the, what was then the Transvaal, Western Transvaal and so on, can you possibly tell the Committee how strong the AWB was in let's say, Natal?

DEON MARTIN: No, I think those answers could only be provided by Eugene Terreblanche.

MR BRINK: Not very many people.

DEON MARTIN: I don't know.

MR BRINK: Can you indicate how strong the AWB was in the Eastern Cape?

DEON MARTIN: No, that's completely external to our area.

MR BRINK: Insofar as your knowledge of the Western Cape goes?

DEON MARTIN: Right across the country.

MR BRINK: You're only aware of the strength of the AWB in your Province, am I right?

DEON MARTIN: According to computer print-outs which we had, Randfontein was about 1 400.

MR BRINK: But the AWB was strongest in the Transvaal?

DEON MARTIN: I believe so.

MR BRINK: And you can't comment on how strong it was in other Provinces?

DEON MARTIN: No.

MR BRINK: Because I want to suggest that the AWB didn't have a very strong following in any of the other Provinces apart from the old Transvaal.

DEON MARTIN: I attended a year-end function of South Natal and the level of strength was quite high there.

MR BRINK: Do you know how many more or less?

DEON MARTIN: The hall was packed with 150 to 200 people.

MR BRINK: 150 to 200 people?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR BRINK: Now, would you agree with me that an ordinary roadblock - and you were a policeman as I understand it, that an ordinary roadblock is set up to detect drunken diving, the detection of stolen property, stolen vehicles and that sort of thing?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct but that was not our instruction on that evening.

MR BRINK: No, I understand what you're saying but you agree that that's the purpose of an ordinary roadblock?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR BRINK: Have you been in a police roadblock before, in the  sense of taking part in the block?

DEON MARTIN: No.

MR BRINK: I think you'd agree with me that it would be most unusual for members of a roadblock to make enquiries as to people's political affiliations?

DEON MARTIN: Whether it came from out side or the police's side?

MR BRINK: The police side.  The conventional roadblock, one wouldn't expect members of the roadblock to enquire of people that they're questioning, they wouldn't enquire as to their political affiliation.

DEON MARTIN: I myself was never involved in a roadblock but I think that that would have been extraordinary.

MR BRINK: When you on your evidence, started to question inhabitants of these two, or occupants rather of these two vehicles, you said they told you they were supporters or members of the ANC.

DEON MARTIN: No, the answer was that most of them said that they were members of the ANC.

MR BRINK: Wouldn't these people, these occupants of the motor cars, have been terrified when they were told to get out after being hit about, being told to get out, asked their political affiliation, surely they would kept silence and said: "We're not members of any political organisation".  I find that incredible Mr Martin, that people, terrified people would admit to you that they were members of the ANC.