Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I don't really know what does that have to do with me.  I don't know what kind of answer you are soliciting if that is the evidence before you, then you need to tell me precisely what human rights I have violated by having that knowledge.

UNKNOWN: : Let's go on.   Sibusiso Sithole is the father  of one of your grandchildren.  Was he a trained MK cadre?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : No, he was internally trained.

UNKNOWN: : But he was an MK (indistinct)?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, he was.

UNKNOWN: And he was trained?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : He was one of those who were internally trained.

UNKNOWN: : And he was staying at your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : He was staying at my house before the death of Tholi.

UNKNOWN: You see, I put it to you Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, that in your section 29 Inquiry, you advised us that you didn't keep a control of who came into your house and who didn't come.  At the same time, you were engaged in other MK activities.  I've given you a list of people who you confirmed were MK (indistinct), trained as MK (indistinct) whether internally or externally. That as an MK operative, you behaved in a very irresponsible way by not exercising proper, and delegate control over your premises.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I used to hear that kind of (indistinct)  from the Security branch.

UNKNOWN: Let's go on.
 Mr Morgan has testified that he was given armed training at your premises.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : He was given?

UNKNOWN: : Training in usage of arms.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Morgan?

UNKNOWN: : That's right.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I thought that was (indistinct).  He has always been the character who presented and said that's easy.  Why would anyone give him training at that age,  Mr Morgan is an old man, and there was a house with teenagers, youth, who would give that old man training, and what for?

UNKNOWN: : Mr Jabu Javis Sithole said he was given a crash course in usage of an AK 47 in your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Well, they didn't have to come via me.  I don't know where he got his training from.

UNKNOWN: : Let's go on.
 Let's go to the issue of alleged informers. There's a common thread regarding a number of people we were told were accused of being informers.  And then I will deal with the exceptions, and then we'll discuss that.  We have had evidence that Kuki Zwane was accused of being an informer.  Her body has been found.  We have had evidence that Lolo Sono was accused of being an informer.  He has disappeared, he has yet to be found.  We will come back to the Lolo Sono case.  
 We have had evidence that Sibuniso Shabalala was accused of being an informer.  His whereabouts are still not known, or his body is yet to be found.  
 We have  evidence that Stompie Seipei was accused of having been an informer.  His body has been found.  
 All these people at some time had links to your house.  We have had evidence that Tholi Dlamini who was shot dead by Sizwe Sithole, and he was linked to the Football Club.  
 We have had evidence that (indistinct) was accused of being an informer, and some very serious attempts have been made on his life.   
 Is it mere coincidence that all these people linked to either your residence, or to the Mandela Football Club, facing these accusations, either have disappeared, or have had serious attempts on their lives, or in fact, were killed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Ja, (indistinct) in their character, you could hear to give you that testimony  about all those people who supposedly have been branded informers.    You know Richardson (indistinct).  He is the source of that information.  You aren't seriously asking me to account for Richardson's irresponsible testimony here.

UNKNOWN: : Let's talk about two people who were accused at some point of being informers and would not get killed.  Let's talk about Jerry Richardson.
 Do you recall me asking you a question in your section 29 Inquiry where I put to you that Jerry Richardson, in whose house were two MK Guerrillas, placed there by you, his house is attacked by police, they are killed, as well as Serg. Pretorius, a policeman.  He is detained from the 9th of November 1988, released on the 25th of November, 1988, and I put it to you -   "Were you not suspicious of him?"    Do you recall that question?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I do recall that question, and if I had had the opportunity of (indistinct) the material you had at your disposal, I might have dealt with it properly.  I do recall you asking that question, and to me it sounded very strange at the time.  I didn't know what you were basing it on?  You would have that information that you had.

UNKNOWN: : Well, let me just tell you what I told you.  I asked you if you had made (indistinct) as you (indistinct).  Did you institute  any enquiry to how it came about that they were shot in that particular manner, your response was
 "Unless you're not a South African.  If you lived during those apartheid times, that's the last question you would ask of me.  Firstly, I was not even known to have been directly connected with those (indistinct)  
 Ms Sooka continues:  Yes, but I think the question I'm asking you is: Did you of your own institute any enquiry into what had actually happened. 
Your response:  Are you not South African?  
The Chairperson:   That was Mr Ntsebeza.  (indistinct) for instance, Ms Sooka repeats that.  Your response:  How could I make enquiries about (indistinct)?
Ms Sooka:  Did you question Jerry Richardson about it?
Your response:  There was nothing to question Jerry Richardson about save to say that he was one of the victims.    We assume he was one of the victims and it was very unfortunate that the police discovered that I have placed some people there like hundreds of other victims."
 Yet we know, that for a long time there had been newspaper articles suggesting that Mr Jerry Richardson was a police informer.
 A few months ago in this year, there was a long article in the Guardian and Weekly Mail even talking about the amount of money you were alleged to have been paid, but at the Section 29 Inquiry, that was your response.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Chairman, in all  fairness, this question has been asked of the witness in the Section 29, whether or not she instituted enquiries in 1987 or 1988.  And my (indistinct), and my colleague is not saying based on the allegations of which have been made in 1997, she should have answered it differently, that of Jerry Richardson as an informer.   I don't understand  that.  I think that's an unfair question.

CHAIRPERSON: : Perhaps you may be able to explain.

UNKNOWN: : The question in the context when it was first asked, was a man who is harbouring trained MK guerrillas in those times, in 1988, as two of them are killed in his house, fully armed, a Security branch policeman is killed in his house, is in detention from the 9th of November 1988, to the 25th of November 1988, and the question for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela as an MK operative, as a very active political figure in her own right, were you not suspicious, did you not ask him any questions?
 And I've already read responses to you.  
 What I'm putting to you, was in view of the fact that all the other people, who were in some point accused of being informers, and we know what happened to them.  
 Regarding Mr Jerry Richardson, against whom allegations were there, prior to section 29 Inquiry, prior to me posing the question, yet, your response was :  "He was one of the victims."
 How do you explain that to us?