Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-25

CHAIRPERSON: We would like now to call our first witness, Miriam Katazile Tele, to come up the stage.  (Pause)  Good morning again.

MIRIAM KATAZILE TELE AND RAMAGOLOI JOHANNES TELE: Yes, good morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start you will need to take an oath, and Mr Lax here, the advocate, will help you to take that oath.

MIRIAM KATAZILE TELE AND RAMAGOLOI JOHANNES TELE: (Sworn, State)

MR LAX: I will be helping you through your evidence this morning.  Now, Mrs Tele, you were born in 1926, is that right?

WITNESS:   That's true.

MR LAX: Before we proceed to the tragic events that you're going to tell us about, if you can just give us a small picture of your family so we can get a sense of the whole family.

WITNESS:   We are presently six, three boys and three girls.

MR LAX: Are you all self-supporting now and no longer dependent on our parents?

WITNESS:   No longer dependent on our parents.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Your father, is he still alive?

WITNESS:   Late.

MR LAX: He is late.  Thank you.  And if we just reflect for a moment on your late brother, Harry Bipapang Tele, did he have any children?

WITNESS:   He had two adopted, one girl and one boy.

MR LAX: Sorry, if you could just speak up a little bit.  I  can't hear you clearly.

WITNESS:   He had two adopted

MR LAX: children.

MR LAX: Two adopted children.  And?

WITNESS:   One boy, one girl.

MR LAX: Who cares for those children now?

WITNESS:   Technically no one is supporting them, but all of them are of age.

MR LAX: They are of age already?

WITNESS:   That's right.

MR LAX: Have they finished schooling?

WITNESS:   Not yet.  Due to the death of my brother they had to leave school.

MR LAX: And where do they live?

WITNESS:   We don't have now a good contact with them.  I understand they are in Welkom.

MR LAX: They are living in Welkom.

WITNESS:   That's right, but I don't know where.

MR LAX: Okay.  Do you think it might be possible to try and contact them in some way, so that if it was necessary to assist them the Commission could do that?

WITNESS:   We might, but it's going to be a bit difficult, but I will try.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Just for the record, what would their ages be approximately?

WITNESS:   I think the older one should be round about 30-something.  Both of them.

MR LAX: Both of them in their thirties?

WITNESS:   In their thirties.

MR LAX: Okay, thank you.  Mrs Tele, I can see that you're a little bit distressed.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: Are you able to tell us the story?

WITNESS:   Since the death of my brother she is now an epileptic, and she ... (inaudible) ... she has got to go every month to see a doctor otherwise her death can come.

MR LAX: Okay.  Sorry, I take it you're Mr Tele, one of her sons.  Could I just have your full names for the record please?

WITNESS:   Ramagoloi Johannes Tele.

MR LAX: Mr Tele, your mother made a statement to the Commission.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: And I am sure you're familiar with the contents of that statement.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: It might help us if you testified then on her behalf.

WITNESS:   Pardon?

MR LAX: I say would you be willing to testify on her behalf?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do have a full record of events.

MR LAX: Okay.  If you could then turn to these events from - that took place in September 1980.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: And just tell us what happened please.

WITNESS:   It was during about mid-September.  I can't remember the date very well exactly, but it should be round about 14 or so, when there was a gathering, a political gathering of Dikwankwetla.

MR LAX: The Dikwankwetla Party.

WITNESS:   That's right.  My brother and myself were present at that gathering, and ... (intervention)

MR LAX: If you could just speak up a little bit.

WITNESS:   Okay, correct.

MR LAX: There's it.  That's better.

WITNESS:   All right, thanks.  It was round about September, mid-September, and I was present in that political gathering.

MR LAX: And your brother was also present.

WITNESS:   Present, that's right.

MR LAX: Were you both supporters of the Dikwankwetla Party?

WITNESS:   Well, I actually was a businessman by then, and I didn't want to take any position in that. So why did you attend?   ---   Well, I just attended it for interest's sake, that's all.

MR LAX: And your brother?

WITNESS:   My brother - I don't know why he attended there, but he was there also.

MR LAX: Please tell us what happened.

WITNESS:   During the course of the proceedings, I mean the meeting, mention was made of Pharoah, that - it was mentioned by the leader of the party by then that the people of ... (inaudible) ... must take out or remove Pharoah out of ... (inaudible)

MR LAX: What is Pharoah?

WITNESS:   Well, Pharoah - by the time when he mentioned Pharoah people pointed at my brother.

MR LAX: Was your brother known by that name?

WITNESS:   No.  It was the first time that I had actually - he himself was wondering what's happened, because people pointed at him.  And actually when he said Pharoah he actually is Pharoah, because his authority was not to support Dikwankwetla.

MR LAX: Does Pharoah mean anything, or does it ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:  Well, Pharoah I know in the bible, but ... (incomplete)

MR LAX: Oh, Pharoah?

WITNESS:   That's right.

MR LAX: Okay, sorry, I just wasn't following the pronunciation.

WITNESS:   Okay.  So, what happened was the people pointed that my brother wasn't a supporter of the party and therefore he was actually Pharoah.  Then after the meeting the people went to his shop and stoned it.

MR LAX: They stoned the shop?

WITNESS:   They stoned the shop, yes.  Then - so from there I heard so many stories that my brother is actually poisoning the bread, the people should not buy from his shop.  They said that he at one stage took poison in the drums and poured that poison in the dam, a dam where - how can I say - where ... (incomplete) The water supplies came from?   ---   The water supply, that's right.  That's right.  So, the intention was to kill the whole of the people in ... (inaudible) ... which was not actually true, but ... (incomplete)

MR LAX: Were these just malicious stories?

WITNESS:   Malicious stories, that's right.  So they even said that there are some children that have died in the location who ate the bread from Tele's Supermarket.

MR LAX: Now ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   So, two months after that my brother was shot, and ... (intervention)

MR LAX: Now, just before we turn to your brother's actual death, they stoned the shop.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: Your mother says in her statement that they actually burnt it down after looting it, removing all the goods.

WITNESS:   No, that was my shop actually.

MR LAX: Was that your shop?

WITNESS:   That's right.  But it was not on the same day.

MR LAX: Okay.

WITNESS:   But it was in the same year.

MR LAX: So you were both shopkeepers, your brother and you.

WITNESS:   That's right.  That's correct.

MR LAX: What was the damage to his shop in monetary terms?  Do you have any idea?

WITNESS:   My brother's shop?  Are you referring to my brother's shop?

MR LAX: Your brother's shop, then I'll come to your shop.

WITNESS:   Okay.  Well, by then it was heavily damaged.  The windows, it's got very big windows, and those windows were smashed by the stones, and - I can't actually tell you how much the cost was.

MR LAX: Was it in thousands, or tens of thousands?

WITNESS:   In tens of thousands.

MR LAX: And your shop?

WITNESS:   My shop was looted.  I actually had two of them, one in the B section and one in the D section.

MR LAX: Were they both damaged?

WITNESS:   Ja, but now I think you must now I am here - I am not talking - I shall not be talking of the same residents or the same date.