Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR MAZIBUKO: The way they were taking these weapons, they would not know which weapon belongs to which room because they were just taking them and throwing them into a van.

MR BERGER: Yes, that is so, all the weapons were placed in a pile but what I'm asking you is, when the police took the weapons they took it from your room, before it went onto the pile, the police would have known that those weapons came from your room, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: I cannot say that they knew that they came from my room because those people who were searching there on top, they were throwing everything on the ground.  So there were those who were collecting them on the ground and taking them to the people who were standing outside and those people outside would take them and load them into the van.

MR BERGER: I'm just trying to get a simple point answered.  When you put your weapons on the scaffolding after the attack, those weapons were still in your room, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: I threw them there after the attack and they were taken from the same place where I threw them after the attack.

MR BERGER: And the place where you threw them, that scaffolding was part of your room?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And when you threw the weapons there you were not wearing any gloves or anything, you had your bare hands and then you threw the weapons there, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Mazibuko, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, we intend rising now but if  you want to proceed with the cross-examination you can do so, but we intend rising now and then perhaps you can start when we resume at two.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, it's just one aspect, it will take one or two minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I conferred with my colleagues and they suggest that we take the adjournment and then we'll proceed when we come back.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll come back at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any idea what these documents that have been put before us are or what where they're supposed to go?  I mean I see further particulars of Xholisene Mkhize, Paulos Mbatha, Form 1 application, two loose pages and further particulars.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.  These documents which were outstanding in the bundle.  When the bundle was prepared they were not yet furnished by the legal representatives for those particular applicants.  So they are therefore supplemented into the bundle.  In particular Chairperson, if one can look on ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now other than just giving them to us in this loose fashion, shouldn't they perhaps form part of the bundle and perhaps be paginated somehow?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I agree, Chairperson, that is the proper way of doing it.  Unfortunately I myself just got hold of them when the Committee was just getting in.  Otherwise they were not channelled through me properly, unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  Mr Berger, do you have these documents?  These are further particulars relating to Xholeseni Mkhize and then Mbatha?

MR BERGER: Yes, we've also been given a bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a bundle or just ...

MR BERGER: Well in exactly the same fashion that you've given.  I believe my learned friend, Mr Strydom handed them out just before we reconvened.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  Well could I ask that perhaps somehow they be paginated or they form part of the other documentation so that reference to them can be easy, or either you can make them a separate bundle or somehow incorporate them into others so that reference to them will be much more easier?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Chairperson, I thought it would be practical to number these pages, say for instance the last page which deals with Mkhize, well Xholeseni Mkhize is 107 and then make it 107A, B and C, just to have it in the correct place in the bundle and then the same would apply to Mr Mbatha's further documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps it would be convenient to do that when we're dealing with that particular applicant.

UNKNOWN: I agree, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, would that be in order?

MR BERGER: Yes, that will be in order.  We can work on them in the meantime.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay very well.
	Mr Mazibuko, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

MR MAZIBUKO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: I wasn't going to hold you to your two minutes.

MS CAMBANIS: I have no questions, thank you, Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chair, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson, only one or two questions.
	I just want to clarify one point.  At a certain stage you were asked about the reason why you are in custody now and you referred to either another matter or another massacre, did you say matter or massacre?

MR MAZIBUKO: On person, Sir, the murder of one person, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Do you have any reason whatsoever to protect the police or the Defence Force?

MR MAZIBUKO: I have no reason.  If I knew that the police were there I would notify this Committee.  I do not understand that I would be afraid to talk about people who participated in the massacre.  If they played a role I could have identified them in my evidence because that is the important issue which should surface.  If they were there I would identify that the police were there and they participated.  Then if there were soldiers I would identify their identity and their clothes and again their vehicles.

UNKNOWN: You were also referred to the bundle and the document on page 109 and you were asked about the change, or the fact that certain portions of that question 11(b) was wrong and you were asked about meetings and you were scared to mention meetings.  You wanted that reference to the 10th of June to be deleted ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, what is the question?

UNKNOWN: I just put the background before I put the question.
	I want to refer you to your statement on page 117 and the first paragraph on that page.  I'm going to translate it to you and I want to know if you stand by that.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you get to that.  He has told us that he went through a book, and by that I assume that he meant, he was referring to the application papers which one of the applicants had, and that on going through those documents he made a note of those matters that were inaccurate.  He has told  us that some of those that he did not refer to as a mistake and were in fact a mistake, and he apologised to Mr Berger for that mistake.  What is the point now?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, the only point I want to make is that there was a suggestion that there was a particular reason for changing the, or asking for the 10th of June to be deleted, but in his original statement he said that he knew nothing of the attack before the 17th.  So there was no reason for him to change that because it was already contained in his statement.  That is the point I want to make.

CHAIRPERSON: Well just direct him to that portion of the document.

UNKNOWN: I want to refer you to page 117, to that paragraph which reads
"I knew nothing about the attack beforehand, it was only on the 17th of June 1992 at the stadium that I heard about it."
Is that indeed your evidence?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is my evidence.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: Just one question.
	Was Victor Keswa present on the 17th of June in Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: He was not present on the 17th of June.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know where he was?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know.

MS PRETORIUS: Where was he?

MR MAZIBUKO: He was at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station.