Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

GEORGE BIZOS: If you had made inquiries as to who owned it and you found out that it was a respectable leader of the community, Mr Franklin Son, he was a leading educationalist, he was the Rector of a Technikon, and you were told that, would you have changed your mind as to what to do?   Would you have gone to the Chairman or sent somebody to the Chairman, a policeman, you know, use whatever way you could in order to hide the fact that this information had come to the CCB and send some person who had no apparent connection with you, to warn him?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is a hypothetical question.

GEORGE BIZOS: The only way we can test the reasonableness or otherwise of your conduct is by putting these hypothetical questions and I would appeal to you not to dismiss them as questions which you do not have to answer because they are hypothetical.  The question is, as a reasonable man who had such vast powers, would you had done, if you had taken the simple step of finding out who the Chairman was and by telling him that the premises for which he has a responsibility, are being used for subversive purposes, that it would not have been necessary to blow up the building?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, it was not my responsibility.  I will say once again, at the time when I arrived at the scene, or the persons who worked for me, then those processes and the policing and the accompanying bureaucratic systems to prevent an offensive act ...

GEORGE BIZOS: You're seriously describing it a democratic institution?  Is that still your state of mind, that you were working for a democratic institution?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is not what I'm saying.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.  But you did use the democratic - what did you say about democratic?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I said bureaucratic.  I say in other words the bureaucratic process of the State's dispensation, for example the police and the local municipalities and so forth.

GEORGE BIZOS: I apologise, I thought that the word democratic had been uttered by you.   One of the other leading people on this foundation was the Rev Leon Louw, a very well-known community leader.  If he had been told, might he not have taken the necessary steps?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: He could have, but it was part of the same process.  The formal structures had to do that.

GEORGE BIZOS: The church was not, particularly the Council of Churches, you were not well-disposed to them, were you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I was not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether this centre had the support of any religious body, or not?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I was not aware of it, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know that the Rev Louw was an office bearer of the Western Province Council of Churches?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I was not aware of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at any stage aware as to who the owners of that centre were at the time?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Chairperson, I only looked at it from an operational point of view.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) just considered as one of the enemies by you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, it was generally known that money from outside the country was channelled which led to acts, even acts of terror in South Africa, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, did they dispute that or did you regard giving assistance to the wives and children of political prisoners an act of terror, as the State did in the Dean's case in Johannesburg?  Was that your state of mind?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I was only aware of it, Mr Chairperson, that funds  - that the biggest source of recruiting funds or gaining funds came through the Council of Churches and that of that money was also used for acts of terror in South Africa and that is the only thing that I was aware of and it was generally known within the Intelligence Community as they presented it to us then and also in the documentation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just like they believed that Mr Dullah Omar was the Chairman of Lawyers for Human Rights.  But let us just go a bit further.  The use of explosives, was that one of the matters which was available to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who supplied the explosives in this case?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That came from the formal structures of Special Forces, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who actually would the CCB approach to give them a landmine which they had?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: They would approach the logistics system of Special Forces and they would then get it from a store.

GEORGE BIZOS: We are not interested in structures, we are interested in individuals in the CCB that would go and draw explosives from where they kept them.  Who did it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: In this case it was Christo Britz or Burger Basson who was responsible to do this.  I know what you are playing on and this is that it is ...(indistinct) van Heerden and it is not necessarily the case.  It is logistical structure and it is drawn from a store and the Co-ordinator would organise, it could have been any store person, to get it over the counter.

GEORGE BIZOS: We are interested in finding out who the persons were that involved themselves in the supply of this explosive, Sir.  In order to test your willingness to make full disclosure about who helped in these acts and we are going to submit that your giving us the names or the acronyms of organisations or unnamed storemen, isn't sufficient.  Please try and help the Committee to get to the bottom of this - I haven't finished my question - as to who was responsible for this.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot answer that question because I do not have access to Special Forces' stores.  The system was that the Co-ordinator of the region would organise it and it would then be gotten from Special Forces and Special Forces had a Commanding General.  There was a logistical officer and it would then come from the formal structure of the Defence Force.  This was the authorised, approved system.  Names - I could never give that name to you.  If Mr Christo Britz can give it to you, you'll have to ask him that.

GEORGE BIZOS: This was not an ordinary limpet mine, it was a limpet mine which was doctored to go off by remote control.  Who was the expert in manufacturing or adapting remote controls for the purposes of letting off explosives?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: The officer who was responsible for this was van Heerden, but there were various engineers.  There were several store people and there was a big structure.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who were they?  Who were these manufacturers of explosives potentially to kill unsuspecting people?  We would like to know about them please.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It is Special Forces Headquarters logistical system.  I do not know the names.  Apart from Col van Heerden Mr Chairperson, I did not have access.  I was not allowed to go to those buildings for a few years, so I do not know who at that stage, those people were.

GEORGE BIZOS: You had to know when you approved of this operation.  Not only did you approve of it in principle, but also the mechanics of it.  How did you know who was capable and who was prepared to make such a device?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was a pre-approved system that had, over the years, since the beginning of the eighties been developed.  It is Special Forces' Headquarters.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was in charge of that body that you have just mentioned, because you would have known, who was he?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was Col van Heerden, that was the officer. It was the Commanding General, the Commanding General was Gen Webb and before that it was Gen Joubert.

GEORGE BIZOS: The person at the time that this bomb went off, who was the staff officer?