Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot argue with you because I did not see them.

MR WILLIAMS: And at that stage the lights were still on in the building because we were busy with a meeting, and we will not be having this meeting in the dark.

ISGAK HARDIEN: You will not do it, it's obvious, because you won't be able to see anything, you won't be able to write anything.

MR WILLIAMS: So will you agree with me that the lights were on in the building?  Are you agreeing that they were on inside the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot agree with you Mr Williams, that the lights were on, because when I looked the inside lights were off and the outside lights were on.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you recall what you told the Committee before?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I told them that the lights on the walls were on.  That is what I said.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you recall that a while ago you told the Committee you could not recall if the lights were on inside the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I told the Committee that the lights were on outside, because they are on every single night.

MR WILLIAMS: But do you agree with me that you testified earlier on that you cannot recall if the lights were on or off in the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I agree, because I cannot recall if they were on or off.

MR WILLIAMS: Is this still your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.  But if Mr Williams says that he was still inside, then obviously the lights were on, because you cannot have a meeting in the dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Why Mr Williams is asking you this Mr Hardien, is that just now, ten seconds ago, you said: "When I looked inside the lights were off."

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So now you're saying that you can't remember whether they were on.  So how can you not remember that they were on, but be definite that they were off?  I can't understand that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: The reason why I'm saying this is because Mr Williams said that he was inside, but obviously if you were inside the lights must have been on.  But the outside lights against the wall, they were on.

MR LAX: No, you haven't understood the question, let me explain it for you, it's very simple.  Now you've just denied that the lights were on, when Mr Williams was asking you a question you said they were definitely off.  Earlier in your testimony you said you couldn't remember whether they were on or off inside but you were sure they were on outside.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: If you can't remember that the lights were on inside or not, how can you categorically say they were off? Do you understand the problem?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I understand, Sir, but the reason why I'm saying this is because he said that he was inside, then I said it was obvious, if you were inside the lights were on.  I cannot recall if they were on or off, because I know the outside lights were on.  The reason why I'm saying that it was on is because he said he was inside with people.  Maybe I'm explaining it in the wrong way.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: The exact section of the building where we were when the bomb exploded was what we called the boardroom.  Do you know where that is?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I know where the boardroom is.

MR WILLIAMS: And maybe I should just explain to you what happened, that it is possible that it was completely coincidental that we were not in the hall that evening, because after the Kewtown Youth Movement left the meeting, some of our members or most of our members left via the front the building.  Do you agree with that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I've told you and the Committee that at the time when I went to the hall there was no-one in the hall.  When we saw the cars moving away, I went to Van Zyl and I said: "Right, the people are now leaving, they are dispersing, there's no-more meeting going on."  I did not see the Soccer Union's meeting or any other meetings because I was not inside the boardroom or in any other building or room.

MR WILLIAMS: But can you explain to me why you did not go in there, because you at the end of the day wanted to ascertain with certainty that people would not be killed because of what you are doing.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Then why did you not take precautions and go and see if there were people in the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I've already said that I planted the bomb in the hall and I ensured that there were no people in the hall.  I did not care or worry about the boardroom or the offices because I did not go and plant the bomb there.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you see there were no people inside the hall after we finished the Kewtown Youth Movement's meeting?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, before we left I went to go and make sure that there were no people in the hall.

MR WILLIAMS: Before we left?  But we had a meeting in the hall.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, when I got there you were not even at the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, when you went to look in the hall and you say that it was empty, was everything dead silent, was there no noise at all?

ISGAK HARDIEN: At the hall there were no people.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about, did you hear anything, did you hear any noises?

ISGAK HARDIEN: There are sliding doors going towards the boardroom and if you close those doors you could not hear anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but my question is very simple, did you hear something or not?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I did not hear any voices or anything.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, I will put it to you that there was a lot of movement in the front of the building and also inside the building itself, because it had to be very clear to somebody who entered the premises, that there were people in the building.  Will you argue with me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I will not argue that there were people in the building because I did not see people, so I cannot dispute that or argue with you concerning that.

MR WILLIAMS: But there was a lot of movement from inside to outside and from outside to the inside.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I did not see any movements.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went to look in the hall were the lights on or off when you looked in the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: When I went to the hall the hall's lights were on, because after a meeting the caretaker will switch the lights off.

MR WILLIAMS: Well I put it to you that the course of events were as follows on that particular night.  The Kewtown Youth Movement held a meeting in the hall, a few metres from where the bomb was planted ...(intervention)  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR LAX: Sorry, there's no translation coming through that I can hear.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter apologises, he was on the wrong channel.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat what you said Mr Williams, please.