Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-09

MR VALLY: Did you not find this strange since you had very little dealings with him prior to that date?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, as I said I had in my CBW research, had a quarterly contact with Doctor Basson but then he came up with this but I knew that he was the one that supplied some of the raw materials that was not readily available to us for manufacturing Ecstasy.

MR VALLY: Doctor Basson sourced the raw materials?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: He sourced some of the raw materials.  Some that were available in open context we obtained
even from overseas or locally.

MR VALLY: Now when you told Doctor Mijburgh that if  you heard he was smuggling or dealing in Ecstasy you would have his skin, why did you suspect that he may be doing so?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I was just a bit suspicious about the fact that I - you know we did make a study of potential incapacitance at Delta G and I did not consider Ecstasy as to be a very good incapacitant in Chemical Warfare sense although I don't know what the effect of Ecstasy would be when you inhale a large quantity of this.  It could be as it was put in one of these documents, that it would be very "berustend".

MR VALLY: Did you have any basis for suspecting Doctor Mijburgh would smuggle these items?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.  No, I did not have any basis for that.

MR VALLY: So why did you threaten him?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well I was just ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Maybe it was a polite threat but still, why did you threaten him?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well maybe I just said it because I was suspicious of the fact that here late in the day I'm asked to develop an incapacitant which has the potential of abuse and I did not see the reason why so late in the day they would want to have such a large quantity of incapacitant available.
 From our studies and data that we've obtained from Porten Downs and Edgewood Arsenal and so on, we never, I never saw that Ecstasy was part of this.  Although MDMA, MDA, one of the analogues had hallucinogenic properties which could be considered as a potential incapacitant.
 But apparently from the literature that I read is that MDMA Hydrochloride hasn't got that property, it just enhances your empathy and interpersonal communication and as a matter of fact psychiatrists used this, gave this to patients when they wanted to talk to them about traumatic experiences.

MR VALLY: Can you tell me in your opinion why do you think it was a poor - of course we have discussed it, but in your view it was a poor incapacitant to be used for military purposes?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes, as I said, no studies were done as far as I know, on the pyrolytic properties and the thermal stability of this compound and suddenly we had to make a large quantity of this, so there was no data available concerning the stability of this material, how it could be disseminated, whether it could withstand the temperatures in a smoke grenade for example, as we did in the case of CR and CS.

MR VALLY: How did you - Porten Down was the British Chemical and Biological Warfare facility, is that correct?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: That's correct.

MR VALLY: How did you get the information from them?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well, apparently during the early days, I wasn't involved in that, prior to me joining Delta G there was a number of files in the library made available to us and amongst those documents there were documents from these groups.

MR VALLY: The other ...[intervention]

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Some of them were apparently released, it was not still highly secret or something like that but it was available.  I don't know how they obtained it and how it came into those files.

MR VALLY: The other facility you referred to, I think it was, was it Ashbury?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Edgewood Arsenal.

MR VALLY: Edgewood Arsenal, I beg your pardon.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I think that is an America.

MR VALLY: And do you know what the nature of the relationship was with Delta G?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.

MR VALLY: No, what is the code name for Mandrax?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: They called it - when I joined Delta G I knew Doctor Lourens was working on a compound called Mx and that was what the code name, and I also know about a thermal stability study that was done in the Analytical Department under the Direction of Doctor Psotta on Mx which is, that was the code name for Mandrax or Methaqualone.

MR VALLY: Alright.  Methaqualone is the active ingredient and Mx, the M small x was stamped on the tablets when it was still legal.   What ...[intervention]

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Mx was the code name for Mandrax.

MR VALLY: For Mandrax.  And Mosrefcat?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I wasn't aware of this.  There are two documents that you have supplied me here, one was I think Document TRC 65 and the other one is 66, if I'm correct.

MR VALLY: We'll check it up.  But are you aware that ...[intervention]

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Sorry, it's 62 and I don't want to proliferate.

MR VALLY: 62 and 63.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: 62 and 63.  These are the first times that I ever saw these documents in my life.  I was never involved with any research done on Methaqualone.

MR VALLY: When was the first time that you became aware that research was being done into Mandrax?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well, Gert once mentioned to me that he and Steven Beukes did some work, small scale work on Mx and I was given to understand that was Mandrax but that's all I know about it.

MR VALLY: When was this?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: That was before I actually officially became head of the CBW unit there, so it must have been about '87 or so, '88.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any quantities of Mandrax which were produced at Delta G?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, I wasn't aware of this.  These projects that we have referred to had been kept a very closely guarded secret and none of us that were not properly directly involved, if this was executed there, but we did not know about it.

MR VALLY: So let me understand, exactly who was involved in this project regarding Mandrax?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I cannot say but what I do know, what I can deduce from these documents, 62 and 63, is that there had been a research protocol for this specific compound that was written by Doctor Lourens and it was dated that the work was completed in November 1988 and then there is apparently an unsigned document in the middle of 1988 or something that refers to the production of this material.  There's no signature or anything to that and as I say I was not aware that this stuff was made there.

MR VALLY: Just for the record, whenever you say: "Doctor Lourens" you're always talking about Doctor Gert Lourens?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Doctor Gert Lourens.  Please, I have never had, I have had no contact with Doctor Jan Lourens in any of this regard.

MR VALLY: Thank you.  There is an allegation, did you ever share facilities with Mr Steven Beukes?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Steven Beukes once did some small scale work in the laboratory with Doctor Lourens and I believe, and I am not sure about this because I wasn't involved, that this was part of the Mx project.

MR VALLY: What do you base your knowledge on?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I beg your ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: That Steven Beukes was involved with Doctor Gert Lourens as part of the Mandrax project?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well he drank tea with us and he carried on in one of the laboratories but I was working in Laboratory 3 which a different laboratory at that stage.

MR VALLY: Yes, but what is the basis of your knowledge that they were working on the Mandrax project?