Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

ELSIE MOKOENA: Hapile and other girls resided at a certain place belonging to Oupa, who was a comrade.  They lived with some of the comrades.  It happened that one day these comrades took a bakkie from a white woman and they killed her.  One of the comrades took a van and went to Sharpeville, and he was accosted by the police.  They told him that they were looking for the van, and he pointed a place where they all stayed, including Hapile and them.  When the police arrived there they found Hapile and some of the comrades, and all of them were arrested.  They were taken by the police to Barrage cells, they were kept in the cells and the comrades managed to escape.  Hapile and them were released because Jay Naidoo interfered, intervened.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware when Boipatong massacre took place?

ELSIE MOKOENA: If I'm not mistaken it happened in June.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  When would you say Hapile Ndumo was arrested, before or after the Boipatong massacre?

ELSIE MOKOENA: She was arrested before.
(gap between tapes)

MS THABETHE: ... the incident of 15th August 1993.  Would you explain to the Committee how you escaped the second time after you were shot?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I escaped whilst we were at a certain house.  It was at Zandi's house.  I was told to remain outside.  While  I was outside I sat down.  Zandi came out to me, and he said I should kiss him, and I requested water because I was full of blood.  He went back into the house for quite a long time and because I did not see them for a lengthy period I decided to run away.  That's how I escaped.

MS THABETHE: It was also the applicants' evidence that Bopipo, that is Mr Ntjolo, was chasing after you.  Did you see him chasing after you after you had escaped?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No, I did not see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe we would prefer that you lead evidence and don't put it to the witness what has been stated by the applicants.  What they have said, may not in fact be the truth, so you'd be better off just seeking evidence from her as to what transpired so that we get her full version.
	You have not covered the aspect of what happened from the time they were abducted from the tavern to the time where now she is at Zandi's place.  We have not heard her version of events in regard to those aspects, and those are important aspects.  We would prefer to have her own version in regard to those aspects.  Don't adduce evidence by putting to her what has been stated by the applicants.  You will then be denying us an opportunity of getting her version, which version would then be in a position to contrast with that of the applicants.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, I'm indebted to you.  I'll do as you say.  Ms Mokoena, the last time I asked you about the incident of the 15th of August 1993 you had told this Committee that you refused to go with John Radebe and others after he had asked you to go to the offices.  What transpired thereafter?

ELSIE MOKOENA: After refusing to go, John Radebe asked Abraham Mkhwanazi as to what should happen to me.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask you again.  We have all kinds of interferences with the sound, and there is now drilling which is going on outside, just try and be slow when you give your evidence.  It's very important for us to write down what you are saying.  You may proceed.  John Radebe then asked Mr Mkhwanazi what he should do, what should happen to you?  Will you come back to that?  What did John Radebe say to Mkhwanazi?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He asked Abraham as to what he should do to me because I was refusing to go.  Abraham said he did not know what he should do to me.  I saw him pulling a gun from his waist, and he shot at me.  He shot me to the neck.
	After shooting me I ran away into the house at the tavern, and I hid behind a sofa.  John Radebe came in, he found me behind the sofa, he ordered me to go out, and I went out.  There were people outside asking as to what was happening.  John Radebe responded to them by saying we were members of the IFP.  Himself and Abraham had their firearms in their hands and we left the tavern, got into one of the streets, and headed for Small Farms.  
	People were following us, and John Radebe was telling them to back, not to follow us, otherwise he would crush their heads.  We then, John Radebe was ordering us to run.

CHAIRPERSON: You are still too fast there.  You are so fast that it's amazing the interpreter is able to keep up with you but he's doing so at great difficulty, to his ears and his mind, so I know it's difficult.  Just try and be a little slower.  Will you just repeat your evidence where a group of people were following you and were asking what was going on, and Radebe was telling them to back otherwise he would crush their heads.  Continue from there.

ELSIE MOKOENA: When they heard that their heads were going to be crushed the people turned back.  John ordered us to run, and we did as we were told, and I was bleeding.  Abraham was merciful on that day, he gave me a toilet paper to wipe the blood off, and he did not want us to run.
	There's a school called Zeta, we took the street that is running parallel to Zeta and we headed downwards.  There was an open space next to a certain house.  They ordered us to stop there.  Abraham and John left us with Bopipo and they ran into a yard that was nearby.  They came back to us.  When they arrived Abraham said we are now going to Zone 12 ...(indistinct)
... it's John.  
	We left for Zone 12.  There is an open space that is dividing Small Farm and Zone 12.  We stopped there again.  John, Abraham and Bopipo went aside, talking among themselves, but I did not hear what they were saying.  They left Bopipo with us.  He had a gun.  And they ran to Zone 12 Extension while we remained behind.  When they came back they were with Zandi.  When Zandi arrived he asked me whether I knew Meme.  I responded by saying yes, I knew her.  I told him that Meme was my friend, and he sad to me wow if you are Meme's friends then we are going to kill you.  
	The four of them went aside again and they conversed among themselves.  John and Abraham left for the old Zone 12 through Zone 12 Extension, and the rest of us went to Zandi's place.  I was at the front when we went into Zandi's place.  Bopipo pulled me back.  They went into the house.  When I wanted to get into the house they shut the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Who went into the house?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It's Hapile, Zandi and Bopipo.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long were they inside the house whilst you were outside?

ELSIE MOKOENA: About five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were left on your own outside?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: You may proceed.

ELSIE MOKOENA: I sat down waiting for them.  Whilst waiting Zandi came out, and he said I should kiss him.  I told him to get me water.  He went back into the house for about five minutes.  Then I decided to stand up and run away, and that's what I did.  I ran to Zone 10.  	When there was a car in the street with its lights bright there were people inside that vehicle, two of them, I saw them coming out of the car, coming towards my direction.  They asked me as to what was happening because my clothes were full of blood.  I told them that I had been shot.  They took me into a house, into the house.  It was a couple, it was a woman and a man.  And the man asked me where did they shoot me.  I told him it's at the neck, and he told me they did not have telephones, he would go and try to call an ambulance, and after a while an ambulance came to take me to Sebokeng hospital.

MS THABETHE: In the evidence led by the applicants we heard about certain Sepapo.  Did you know him?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I did not know Sepapo, but the name was well known in the township that there was a person called Sepapo.