Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MR CELE: I cannot say because I cannot say for certain that he was not burnt by even one of the group, but all I'm saying is that I did not witness such an incident.

MR MALAN: And he was killed close to your house.  That bush that you shot him at, that was close to your place.

MR CELE: Not very close, but yes, it is.

MR MALAN: Can you point us in the hall?

MR CELE: As I mentioned before, this area is too short, I would not be able to make an estimation here.  The distance is further than, is longer than this hall.

MR MALAN: How much longer, two times the length of the hall, three times, four times?  Can you give us an indication?

MR CELE: Maybe about two-and-a-half, two or three times the hall.

MR MALAN: And if he had been necklaced you probably would have known of it, or you should have known of it, it was close enough for you to have witnessed it.

MR CELE: I would have not known about it if no-one informed me of it.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he armed, did he shoot at you?

MR CELE: As I explained before, it was dark, I could not see who was armed and who was not amongst that group, I just heard gunfire.

ADV DE JAGER: But you were sure that you've hit somebody and killed somebody, is that correct?

MR CELE: I was certain that I had shot someone, but I did not know whether that person died or not.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't your comrades go up and see whether they could find a weapon and they could use that weapon, because weapons were really wanted in those days?

MR CELE: No, that did not happen, we were all in a hurry because we were rushing to pursue the others who had been with him.

ADV DE JAGER: So do you say all of you left the scene?

MR CELE: I cannot say everyone left, because we did not all leave at the same time.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, so somebody could have gone up, you wouldn't know?  Go to the corpse there.

MR CELE: I would not dispute it, it could have been possible.

ADV DE JAGER: And you've said that the distance from your house was about two to three times the length of this wall, would that be say 150 yards, 120 yards?

MR CELE: I would not be able to estimate in yards, but as I said before, it could be two-and-a-half to three times the hall.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  Have you seen a fire there or smoke, coming from the place where he was shot?

MR CELE: I could have seen if there was a fire.  I'm not sure about smoke, but I could have been able to see if there was a fire there.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(end of side A of tape)

MR CELE: I cannot specify or say if somebody did return and burn his body.  I did not witness it, that's why I don't know.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Mr Cele, how far was the Madlala's kraal from Amos Cele's house?

MR CELE: It is close, the distance could be one-and-a-half times this hall.  It could be one-and-a-half times this hall.

MS THABETHE: My instructions that it's from, let's say from where we are, it's from here to the other side of the road.  Would you agree on the distance?

MR CELE: ...(no English interpretation)

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MR CELE: As I say, it could be one-and-a-half times this hall.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, approximately 70(?) yards.

MS THABETHE: And how far was Madlala's kraal from your home?

MR CELE: It's a bit of a distance.  It could be three-and-a-half times this hall, or even four times this hall.

MS THABETHE: My instructions are that it's further than that, it's from - let's say it's about 10 kilometres from here.  What is your response to that?

MR CELE: That is not true.

MS THABETHE: What would you say the distance is then, in terms of kilometres? - from your home to the Madlala's kraal.

MR CELE: As I mentioned before, it could be four times the distance of this hall, or three-and-a-half times.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure whether it's what he said.  I thought he said it's about four times the houses around the area and not this hall.  Let's just get clarity on that.
	Could you please repeat your estimation of the distance from your home to Madlala's kraal, using this hall.

MR CELE: It could be three-and-a-half to four times the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: You are correct, Ms Translator.

INTERPRETER: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Yes, I've already stated that my instructions are that it's about 10 kilometres, it's very, very far.  Those are my instructions.
	Now my next question is, you say Mr Amos Cele was one of the people who came to your house to attack you, are you suggesting that when they ran away and when you shot him, he had run the distance from your home almost to his house, because his house is not far from the Madlala kraal?  Is that what you are suggesting?

MR CELE: I am referring to a person that I pursued from my home to near Mr Madlala's kraal.  As I mentioned before, I believe it was Mr Cele because his body was found on that spot.

MS THABETHE: How long did you chase him for?

MR CELE: I cannot estimate the time, but I did pursue him.

MS THABETHE: Can't you approximate?

MR CELE: No.

MS THABETHE: Well I won't take the matter any further, I'll pursue it in my argument.
	My next question is, why was Amos Cele killed?

MR MALAN: Ms Thabethe, I don't think we have to pursue that.  I mean he didn't know that he killed Amos Cele at that time, he was simply found dead.

MS THABETHE: I thought he said he's the one who fired the shot that killed him.

MR MALAN: Yes, but he didn't know the identity.  He told us the story about the attack and the pursuance and the person behind the bush, which he believes to have been Amos Cele, but he did not intend to kill Amos Cele, in terms of his own evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe rephrase your question.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you kill the person hiding behind the bush?

MR CELE: He is the person I had been pursuing from my home.

CHAIRPERSON: Answer the question.  Why did you kill the person who was hiding behind the bush?

MR CELE: That is because they had attacked me first.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why they were attacking you?

MR CELE: No, I cannot know that.  It could have been that it was the very same person who had been lashed, coming to pay their revenge.

CHAIRPERSON: And this incident happened on the 28th of December, is it not so?

MR CELE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not recognise any of the people who were shooting at you at the time when you were shot at, did you?

MR CELE: I did explain before that it was already dark, I could not recognise any.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know who was shooting at you?

MR CELE: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when you were shooting you were merely returning fire because people were shooting at you, and that is all you can say?

MR CELE: Yes, that is what I'm saying, I was trying to defend myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No further questions, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Before I give Mr Molohlanye an opportunity to re-examine, may I just get clarity on one point.  During my questioning you indicated that the only other person who fired a shot at Mr Cele, was Bongani Khumalo.  You recall saying that?

MR CELE: Yes, I would say he is the one person that also shot and he was also my co-accused and we were both convicted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm not interested in what happened during your criminal trial, I'm interested in the evidence that you've already given to this Committee.  You said Mr Bongani Khumalo also fired a shot at Mr Cele.

MR CELE: Yes, he is the one who fired the shots.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that?

MR CELE: He was next to me.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you know that the shot that came out of Mr Khumalo's gun, landed on the same person that you also shot at?  It was at night.  That's your evidence.  How would you know that?