Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

UNKNOWN: Were you ever involved in military action outside the country?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

UNKNOWN: So your conditioning, your perceptions did not arise out of an exposure to killing in a war situation or a military situation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

UNKNOWN: Now, you have testified and it is contained in your application, that you were second in command if I understood your evidence, of the Security Branch here in Port Elizabeth, was that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, for a short while.

UNKNOWN: And your senior if I understood it was Brigadier Gilbert?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: First it was Mr Snyman and then Mr Gilbert.

UNKNOWN: When you were here in Port Elizabeth, have you already formed these perceptions that you had an entitlement to kill and to order killings?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And who did you go to Mr Van Rensburg, when you wanted to kill somebody, who did you go and get authority from?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Sir, in the instances in which I was involved in in Port Elizabeth, I did apply for amnesty and in those circumstances, my direct head, in other words the Divisional Commander of the Security Branch gave me instructions.

UNKNOWN: Well, can we know his name?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well, there was General Erasmus.

UNKNOWN: Was he the only one?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: There was also Mr Snyman to such a degree where we did cooperate in a certain instance.

UNKNOWN: Now, if you were transferred to a very senior position in the Security Branch in Pretoria, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you expect people to come to you looking for authority to kill?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I am not certain.  I did not really expect it, but it could have happened.  It would not have been strange.

UNKNOWN: Well, I fail to see why you didn't expect it, you yourself had gone to senior persons in the Security Branch, in order for authority to kill, why should it have been different for others?  You were now a senior person in the Security Branch?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, as I have said it is possible that people could have approached me.

UNKNOWN: I apologise, are you finished?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now, Mr Van Rensburg, we know that both from your application and the application of Mr Nieuwoudt, the suggestion is that Brigadier Gilbert got the okay, as it were.  Is my understanding correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And Brigadier Gilbert is no longer here to tell us exactly how that happened?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Well, then I am sure you can be of some assistance to this Commission Mr Van Rensburg, because he was applying for authority from the same place where you had been some short while before.  Who would he have gone to specifically to ask for such authority?

UNKNOWN: With respect, I don't think that is quite what the witness said Mr Chairman.  He stated he was never Commanding Officer of the Security Branch here.  I am not sure what my learned friend is getting at, but if the question is intended to suggest that he was in a position to ask for authority, he was never the Commanding Officer of the Security Branch whereas Gilbert was.
	Perhaps if my learned friend could just clarify the question, then one can understand what he wants.

UNKNOWN: I will happily do so Mr Chairman.  Mr Van Rensburg, I asked you if when you were in the Eastern Cape, you ever asked for authority to kill, do you recall that question?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is right.

UNKNOWN: And you answered that question, did you not?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Well, the question which I am now asking you follows from that question Mr Van Rensburg.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You knew who to go to when you were here, surely you must know who Brigadier Gilbert would have gone to to seek the same authority?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Sir, when I was in the Eastern Cape in Port Elizabeth, I approached my Divisional Commanding Officer and that time I trusted him to approach him with such a plan.

UNKNOWN: All right, well let's approach it from a different angle Mr Van Rensburg.  As a senior official officer in the Security Branch in Pretoria, you would have been aware that such requests were being made from time to time presumably?  Authority for killing?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Who would those requests have been directed to?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I would assume that it would have been directed towards the Head of the Security Branch.

UNKNOWN: But now surely Mr Van Rensburg, you can be more helpful than that.  Surely you would have been aware in your position in the Security Branch, you would have known precisely who would it be going to, who would be approached for this authority?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that now with reference to the Port Elizabeth or the Eastern Cape area?

UNKNOWN: Anybody, anybody Mr Chairman, who was seeking the right to kill, to launch an operation to kill somebody.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I didn't know exactly who the person was to be approached, but I assumed that it was the Chief of the Security Branch.

UNKNOWN: I see.  We have heard through the questions which have already been asked, that there were any number of operations in which Vlakplaas was involved?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you leave this aspect, I am not sure I am clear in my mind, what the answer to the question is.  The question as to whom would the witness expect Mr Gilbert to have cleared, to have consulted or got authority from, I am not quite sure whether that is clear to me.

UNKNOWN: Shall I ask the witness to clear it up then Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Please will you?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Can you clear it up Mr Van Rensburg, who precisely, you have heard the Chairman's problem?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I am not clear what the problem is.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you were asked, well you were told that Mr Gilbert is not here any more, he has since passed away and we don't know from whom he would have cleared the authority, or obtained the authority to come and approach you in Pretoria  and so on and so forth, we don't know that.  We know though that you yourself had for some time worked in Port Elizabeth area, you knew the structures and we also know that you are in Pretoria at the time when the instructions were given in respect of this particular operation, now the question flowing from there is, given your knowledge of the situation, who do you expect would have authorised Gilbert to proceed with this operation or who do you think would have given him the authority to proceed with this operation?  Or who do you think Gilbert would have first discussed it with before he came to you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I thought that that would be the Chief of the Security Branch.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was that person at the time?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was General Smit.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Van Rensburg, you obtained similar leave whilst in the Eastern Cape and you said you got it from General Erasmus?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: There has been evidence that General Erasmus did not get authorization from above, he took that decision and he assumed the responsibility to make that decision?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, what was General Erasmus' position in the Eastern Cape at that stage?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He was the Divisional Commander of the Security Branch at that stage.

ADV DE JAGER: And as Divisional Commander he did not go and request authority from higher up, he made the decision himself?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.