Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

MR ROSSOUW: Well, let me make it clear.  If there had been such an action, we are working with a supposition now, if there had been such an action, then that would not have been an action which could have had any political motive?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Correct, yes.

MR ROSSOUW: I have nothing further Mr Chairman.

MR ROSSOUW: .

CHAIRPERSON: Well, one should just observe of course that what you put to the witness is not necessarily correct, he could still - you know we have just a few weeks ago, we have granted amnesty to a policeman who arrived at a scene, he found people had been arrested already, they were injured and he found them on a bakkie, ordered the bakkie to get into the bush and then he shot both of them dead.
	We gave him amnesty, so you know what you are putting to the witness must be qualified, you know it is not hundred percent correct.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, I didn't interrupt because I thought it is a matter for argument, but thank you for pointing that out.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Thank you.  Mr Fuchs, this tape recording of the interview or questioning of the wounded man, was that tape recording taken back to Pietersburg Security Branch?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I think so, yes, because a week or so afterwards I listened to the incident again, so I say yes, it was taken back to Pietersburg.

MR BLACK: And on the recording, did you hear the interview which took place?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, correct.  I did listen.  Even the shooting incident has been recorded.  Shortly afterwards you could hear my interrogation of this wounded person.  My discussion with the person plus Mr Erwee's questioning.

MR BLACK: Do you know Mr Francois Jakobus van Zyl who was working at the Pietersburg station at the time, Security police?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, definitely.  He worked for about a year and a half with me.  We almost worked in one office, but I am not correct on that, I am not sure.

MR BLACK: If he says that he had occasion to listen to this tape recording on more than one occasion and that the recording was played to him by yourself, would you agree with that, would that be possible?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No, I cannot disagree, but I never have had the recording with myself.  Maybe for a short period, but I am actually in doubt about that.

MR BLACK: And then did you, during the course of events, during the course of time after this operation, do you recall telling him, Mr Van Zyl, that at the - during the operation, your R1 was jammed and that you had to use your pistol?  Could you have told him that?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: It is very possible and at office level, we did discuss it.  On various occasions we talked about this incident.

MR BLACK: Now, Mr Fuchs, where was this tape recording kept at Head Office?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: As I've already said, I was never in possession of this tape recording.  Somebody at some stage came and played this tape recording for us and it might have been Colonel Van Dyk, but I never physically had this tape recording in my possession.
	Why I am saying that is that every Security policeman has his own little tape recorder.  I didn't have a tape recording machine at the scene.  I do use it when I question informers and so on, so I wouldn't have kept someone else's tape recording with me.

MR BLACK: The point I am getting at Mr Fuchs, evidence of this nature, where would it normally be kept at the Security offices?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Mr Chairman, if I can perhaps just comment on what I would have done or what happened in my case.
	I don't know, a tape recorder which can only take one cassette and for which you have to sign, is used over and over again.  In other words I am talking about in my case, what happened with informers.  As soon as I was finished with one person, I would make notes to form the basis on a report.   I would then with my next appointment with another informer, I would start afresh, so I can't say where it would have been kept and whether it might still be available.

MR BLACK: Mr Fuchs, here is clear evidence that for some weeks after this event, the tape recording was still in existence and it was played to various members of the Security police and it was heard by several people, as Mr Van der Berg has testified.
	Mr Van Zyl has given information, you have heard it, together with other people.  Now that evidence, which it is, of a very important event must be kept somewhere, there must be a record of that evidence.
	Don't you normally important or significant evidence which you feel necessary to keep and not replay over the tape, where, what is the normal procedure?  If you obtain evidence and information on a tape recording or any other form of recording, what is the normal procedure that is followed in the Security police Head Office with such evidence?
	Do you keep a record of it, is it kept in a safe place or what is the procedure that is followed?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Today I am a Captain, I am an officer, I would not neglect to say that I would have kept the tape, but in that period I didn't think it was necessary to do so as a Sergeant.
	My colleagues were officers and whatever they did with the tape or tape recording, it was not really for me to enquire into and I think, or I thought that it was the work of the officers, they had to deal with it.

MR BLACK: Mr Fuchs, perhaps you are misunderstanding what I am getting at and my question, even if you are an officer or a non-commissioner officer, you obtain evidence of a recording and a recording is made of a very significant event.
	You've got the tape, you come back to Headquarters with this evidence, one of your specific tasks with this evidence, I just want to know what normal procedure then is followed in order to store this evidence in a safe place to make a record of this evidence and who gets informed?
	What was the practise that was followed?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Mr Chairman, I would sum it up by saying that the tape recording had to have been given to somebody, I don't know.

MR BLACK: Okay.

ADV DE JAGER: It is a very, very simple question that is put to you.  Suppose I am being suspected of having committed murder and you are investigating the case and you have your tape recorder with you and I confess or admit to having committed the murder, would you go and tape something else over that tape or would you keep it in safe custody to use as evidence against me?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No, I would preserve it, I would keep it.

ADV DE JAGER: So why was this tape recording not kept, I think that is what we all want to know.

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Chairperson, I don't know.  I can't answer that.

MR BLACK: Mr Fuchs, okay, let's just move on, I just want to get a picture of the situation.  I understand that before you, I think it is the night of the 9th, you slept over at a farm at Alldays and proceeded to the scene early the next morning on the 10th of July?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: Now, how far is this farm from the scene of the incident?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: If I remember correctly, if we are talking about the Alldays police station, then you moved backwards in the direction of Pietersburg and then turned off onto a gravel road, and from there it is about 20, 30 kilometres.
	I am not sure, because I was only there twice and from where you enter the Pietersburg/Alldays road again, it is a further seven to ten kilometres and then, I would say from Alldays a further 50,60 kilometres.
	But the farm laid on the right side of the police station, in other words completely away from the scene.

MR BLACK: What I am trying to get at, is the farm between before you get - situated between the scene and the operation and Alldays, is it in between there?