Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

GEN VAN DER MERWE: I never had such a conversationwith him myself.  I mention it that now in retrospect as one attemptsto place the situation in perspective and while one is attemptingto determine how the entire matter developed it becomes clearthat this perception existed.  While the struggle, or in the heatof the struggle violence and for all practical purposes murderexisted these things happened.  It's unfortunate.  We were caughtup in meetings to try and see what one could do to counter thesituation that we never had the opportunity to go right on theground to see what
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the situation was.  It's a sad fact that we wasted a lot of timesin meetings rather than having been in direct contact with ourpeople on the ground.  That would have been a far better ...(indistinct).

MR DU PLESSIS: My apologies a final question.  Wouldyou have any doubt how Brigadier Cronje's staff, how they wouldhave understood Brigadier Schoon and Victor's instructions?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: I am not sure what these instructionsentailed but if they understood them as we are now presentingI have no doubt that they would have understood it in the waywe have now presented it.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you.  Thank you Chair, I have nofurther questions for the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  General you testifiedto the instructions given by yourself to the members in the thenpolice force, can you just tell this Committee what it is thatthe then police force or the then government intended achievingby the orders given of destruction?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: May I just enquire, which destruction?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: To quote an example on page 26 of your statementwherein I can read that paragraph for you.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Paragraph, can you just give methe paragraph please?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Page 26, it will be paragraph 20.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Paragraph 20, just a moment.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I can just sum that up for you.  Mr Chairmanand Members of the Committee at the beginning of page 26.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Do you refer to the handgrenadesincident?
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes the modified handgrenades, yes.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Ja.  Chairperson the objectivethere was purely, as we have set it out, to protect our Blackmembers against the threatening attack which we knew would takeplace.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you General, as a follow-up there, expectto have any change in the political set-up there?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson we did expect, orlet me put it this way, we knew that if we could not succeed inprotecting our Black members and maintaining them as far as theirmorale was concerned the whole system would collapse and thatwe in no way would be able to defend ourselves against the onslaughtwhich was threatening.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I understand General that you wanted to protectthe Black community, but first let me be a bit specific with you. By this ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: He didn't say the Black community, he saidthe Black members of the police force.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Of the police force, thank you, I stand indebted. Let me be specific with you, by these orders, with particularreference to the destruction orders as I've outlined to you, didyou aim to achieve to have any political change in the then government?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: In the then government?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Political change?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: I don't follow Mr Chairman.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you aim at achieving any political objective?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Well yes obviously I think thepolitical objective lies in the fact that without the South 4AAfrican/...
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African Police the government would not stand a chance to rulefor one day, and unless it was possible for us to assist its membersin such a way, to protect them in such a way that they can carryon with their duties, the whole system would fall down.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now the carrying on with the duties by the police,or let me call it the enforcing of the duties of the police, wouldyou say that it was commensurate with the killing of human beings?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson if we had any otherchoice in the circumstances reigning at the time we would havefollowed those options, but at the time we saw no other way toprotect our Black members who were exposed to violence to suchan extent that many had to leave their homes, their homes wereburnt down.  You saw from the statistics how many of our peoplewere killed.  We had no option but to do what we did.  Many ofour members had wives and small children who were exposed to alot of danger.  They were innocent victims of this kind of violence. So we saw no other way in which to do it and it's unfortunatethat we had to do it in this way.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In the giving of instructions did you have anyknowledge about the Pepco 3 instruction?

GEN VAN DER MERWE: No, I was not aware of that atall.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The legal representatives of the victims ordependants would be entitled to ask questions relevant to theirclients' interest in the matter.  I understand that the evidencegiven is of a general nature by way of providing a general background. We are being disturbed by somebody who is talking on his cellularphone, would you
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please go outside if you wish to use your phone.  Will you placeyourself on record, who do you represent?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, Eric van den Berg, attorneysBell, Dewar and Hall.  I appear together with Mr Curren.  We haveinstructions from a support group known as the Khuymandi Group. Mr Chairman I am in a difficult situation in that a number ofthese people were only advised of the hearings - I believe thiswas indicated Mr Chairman earlier this morning that they wereonly advised of this hearing, or their possible involvement ortheir possible rights during the course of the weekend, I am notin receipt of full instructions.  I am also not in receipt ofthe various applications.  There are aspects Mr Chairman whichrelate to our clients.  I am not in a position to ask any meaningfulquestions at this point.  I would ask not to delay these proceedingsbut that if there are questions which we want to ask the witnessbe recalled at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is necessary to ask the witness the questionsof this particular witness then we may have to call him.  If youhear the evidence of the applicant's themselves it may be thatyou will get the information from them.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is so Mr Chairman, but we wouldlike to reserve our rights in that regard.  We are in a predicamentas I indicated earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: General your attendance may be required atsome stage.  It is not possible for us to tell you when.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: I am quite prepared to testifyagain Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  If there are no otherquestions to be asked of this witness then he may be excused 4Auntil/...
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until he is required for further evidence.

GEN VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for helping us today.