Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Now I am talking about self-defence units establishedin the area.

MR SEGOPA: Yes.  There are many of these self-defenceunits where I stay.

<UNKNOWN>: And you are not a member thereof?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I was one of the public protectors orself-defence unit members.

<UNKNOWN>: You are not a member of the SDU's?  What doyou mean by "a", you were or you're not?

MR SEGOPA: No I am not a member of the self-defence unit.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you a member of any political organisation?

MR SEGOPA: I am a member of the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: Since when were you a member thereof?

MR SEGOPA: Since 1990, approximately in May, I am notsure as to the date or the month.

<UNKNOWN>: And who is the leader of the local ANC?

MR SEGOPA: It is Veks Mayekiso and Mr Minong.

<UNKNOWN>: What is Mr Minong's position in the local ANC?

MR SEGOPA: He was an official who looked after the communitiesseeing whether the community is not harassed or not.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Segopa in an organisation or a movementthere are office bearers like a chairperson, vice chairperson,secretary, treasurer, organiser, convenor and so on, now I  wantto know which position did Mr Minong occupy in the ANC?

MR SEGOPA: He was the secretary of the local branch.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Segopa you testified that in doing whatyou have done you wanted to stop apartheid and you wanted Blackand White to live together, do you remember that?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I do remember that.

<UNKNOWN>: Now these people that you killed did they notthen at the time form part of the Whites whom you wanted to livewith Blacks?

MR SEGOPA: I could not appreciate that we would livewith White people bearing in mind the conditions in which we lived...(tape10A ends)

<UNKNOWN>: Now what did you aim to achieve by killingthese people?

MR SEGOPA: I wanted to bring equality among the Blackpeople and among the White people here in South Africa, the wholecountry as a whole, as it is.

<UNKNOWN>: But how would they be equal with you if youkilled them?

MR SEGOPA: This was just an indication to the then governmentthat the apartheid was not good between Blacks and Whites, Blacksand Whites must just be one and the same.

<UNKNOWN>: In your answer will I be correct if I say youmean to be saying that when you killed these Whites you were killingapartheid?  You saw them as apartheid?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I would agree with you, it was apartheid.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know Mr Mosese(?) who gave evidenceat your trial?

MR SEGOPA: I do not know him.

JUDGE WILSON: Who said he took a sjambok from some man,one of the accused, do you remember that witness?

MR SEGOPA: I do remember Michael Maleme(?)

JUDGE WILSON: Did he say he took a sjambok from you?

MR SEGOPA: Yes he did take the sjambok from me.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you accused no.13?

MR SEGOPA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And he took the sjambok to try to defendthe four people who were sitting in the car, do you remember thatevidence?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I do remember that court evidence.

JUDGE WILSON: And the car was set on fire while the fourpeople were still sitting inside it, do you remember that evidence,you were standing at the front of the car at the time?

MR SEGOPA: No I was on the side of the car.

JUDGE WILSON: I am reading from the Appellate Divisionjudgment.  And he tried to open the car doors to let the peopleget out of the burning car, do you remember that evidence?

MR SEGOPA: The evidence provided was incorrect. He wasnot telling the truth because he was someone who was bought tocome and oppress some of the witnesses like I was withdrawn fromthe court case so as to come and oppress some of my fellow accused. I was withdrawn from the case for some time.  Afterwards thepolice came to me to come and lead evidence against some of thefellow accused.  Because if I could not do that they would drivethe case against me.

JUDGE WILSON: And you've told us that after you lit thecar it took two minutes to kill all four of them, do you remembertelling us that?

MR SEGOPA: Yes that's so, it is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: What happened to the white woman?

MR SEGOPA: She was killed also.

JUDGE WILSON: And before she was killed?

MR SEGOPA: They were standing with her, a group was nextto her I could not see what was happening next to her becauseeverybody was just around her.  She was surrounded, that's whatI am saying.

JUDGE WILSON: And they chopped her with axes.

MR SEGOPA: They did chop her with axes and they stabbedher with pangas.

JUDGE WILSON: And stabbed her in both her eyes, thisevidence was given at the trial wasn't it?

MR SEGOPA: It is true they did stab her but I cannotreally tell whether they did stab her in the eyes but she wasbadly stabbed.

JUDGE WILSON: So it wasn't all as quick as you said itwas, was it?

MR SEGOPA: I did not have a watch but it's somethingthat took a short space of time.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you remember also that Mr Simon Minonggave evidence at the trial?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I do remember.

JUDGE WILSON: He said he was the chairman of the localbranch of the ANC, do you remember that?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I do remember.

JUDGE WILSON: And in his evidence which was given inmitigation of sentence he said there was tension on the Fridaynight because there was a dispute between two rival taxi associations,do you remember that?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I do remember that.

JUDGE WILSON: He made no mention of Inkatha in his evidencedid he?

MR SEGOPA: I do not clearly remember, but he did mentionto the residents what was about to happen.

JUDGE WILSON: I am talking about the evidence he gaveat the trial where you appeared, do you remember him saying that,he was led in mitigation?

MR SEGOPA: He spoke in English and then I could not understandwhat he said, what he explained at that time.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you remember that Mr Minong was calledas a witness by Mr Naidoo who had appeared for the accused?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I do remember.

JUDGE WILSON: He applied for special leave to call MrMinong. And the evidence he gave was about this taxi dispute,do you remember that?

MR SEGOPA: I am not clear as to the facts on that point.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't Mr Minong called in order to assistthe defence on the question of sentence, he was called to putforward evidence before the Court that might assist the Courton passing a lenient sentence, isn't it the reason why he wascalled?

MR SEGOPA: Was he called to give evidence on behalf ofthe defence or what, I don't understand the question quite clearly?

CHAIRPERSON: After you had been found guilty he was calledon behalf of the people who had been found guilty, before theJudge could pass sentence on them.

MR SEGOPA: Yes he was called.

CHAIRPERSON: And the purpose for him being called was, asI have just said, isn't it so?

MR SEGOPA: You are right, he was called.

UNKNOWN: Did you realise that there was also Whitepersons in the ANC, members of the ANC?

MR SEGOPA: No by that time I didn't know that there wereWhite members in the ANC.

UNKNOWN: You haven't heard of Mr Joe Slovo for instance?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I know about him that he was one of theANC members.

UNKNOWN: And he was a White person.

MR SEGOPA: Yes I know that he was White.

UNKNOWN: So you knew there were also White persons,members of the ANC?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I knew about Joe Slovo.

UNKNOWN: And did this woman, the deceased, did sheplead for her life?

MR SEGOPA: No I never got near to her.

UNKNOWN: At the trial there was evidence that shepleaded and even offered money and asked the people to save herlife, did you hear the evidence?

MR SEGOPA: No I never got near to that woman.  I onlygot to the first man who I pulled out of the car.