Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Yes, riot control, or the control of crowds, and kind of as a sleeping drug.  This came from the study group consisting of the people from the Army, the Police and from Armscor.  We met once every three months, we sat around a table and we discussed the needs of the Security Forces regarding the activities which were going on and the question of the obtaining of water canons and obtaining other substances which were required or gas masks, it was a big problem, the Security Forces did not have gas masks.
 When the riots started in 1976, the South African Police were caught unawares.  They had nothing apart from guns, shotguns, and sharp point ammunition.  Nobody wanted to use that and that's why there was a surge for various techniques to be applied.  
 And to prevent riots studies were undertaken. I went overseas three times to Germany, England, Israel, America to find the best techniques available.

CHAIRPERSON: In history is recorded that sharp ammunition was used in 1976.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Absolutely yes, but it was not the first choice, Mr Chairman.  When the riots started we tried to make other plans.  There was limited amounts of teargas, it was not enough.  The people who supplied the CS, I don't want to even mention their names, because they won't believe it that they were the people who provided us with that, we had no capability whatsoever, and the few grenades we had we could not handle one big unrest whether we wanted to or not, and there was a different philosophy, a different approach regarding riot control or the control of crowds.  We did our utmost most best, for the last seven, eight years it went better.

MR VALLY: Gen Neethling, just confirm again what date was this meeting, the one with Mr Le Grange?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: It was between August 1983 or the beginning of 1984, I don't know exactly when, because at that stage you had a conversation, you talked to somebody, and you went along.  I didn't make notes of dates, I didn't write down the date, but afterwards things took place, CR was developed, and I know when that took place the first time, I physically made contact with Dr Wouter Basson and I talked to him for quite a while was when we attended the first conference in Kent in 1984 in May.  I made no secret of that, that certificate was in my office.  I handed it in to Higher Court and I handed it in to the Appeal Court in 1994.  There was nothing secret about that ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Fine, we'll come back to CR gas ...(intervention)

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I just want to give the date, it was May 1984.

MR VALLY: This is the reference to the conference in Kent, is that Belgium?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: It's in Belgium, yes.

MR VALLY: We'll come back to CR gas in a short while.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Good.

MR VALLY: I still want to pursue the issue of the other drugs that were passed on to Dr Wouter Basson.  The first question I want to ask you is this, how was the physical transfer made, the delivery?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: The physical transfer was physically provided to Dr Basson, loaded into his car with my Staff Officer, retired as a Brigadier, Brig Arnold Mentz.  I usually told him, Arnold how many are there, get 50 000, 60 000 tablets, and it was brought to his office next to mine, it was in the Jacob Marais Building.  Then Dr Basson would collect it from there, put it in his car and drive away.  The same with the LSG.  The dagga was conveyed by Dr Sotas.  He took that oil and left with that.  Later on I realised that he was employed at Roodeplaat.  I did not know where, I never saw him again.

MR VALLY: Fine, so there was personal delivery under your instructions by your ...(intervention)

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Yes, when he came there he greeted me.

MR VALLY: Fine, now at this stage, did you have the consent of the Medical Control Council regarding the delivery of the mandrax?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Not at all.  My Medical Control Council, the contact with them was limited.  Later on I served on a committee, a scheduling committee of the Medical Control Body.  I served there for four years.

MR VALLY: Well, let me rephrase my question.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Please.

MR VALLY: Didn't you require, I'm sorry, there are headphones there if you require them, Gen Neethling.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, I'm a little bit hard hearing because of the tons of antibiotic I had in the last two years which I'm sorry about.

MR VALLY: No, that's fine, but I mean it will help you with the volume as well, if you need it, it's up to you.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I'll try.

MR VALLY: No, it's up to you, and there's a volume control on it.  Sorry, let us continue.
 From a legal point of view, as a Policeman, if someone other than the Police in the course of the investigations were to be given such large quantities of, and these were all illegal drugs, surely you needed some consent to legalise the possession of such drugs.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I had that.  I was provided by the Minister, under the Minister's instruction.  He instructed me, assist those people because from that we will make derivatives which we could use.  I'm also a pseudo policeman, just like the pseudo scientist, as a Policeman we did - do you know I gave Delta G the certificate that they may posses teargas.  They produced teargas, and for that they required a certificate according to law, according to the law of 1984, the teargas act.

MR VALLY: Did you comply with the law requiring specific exemption?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Not at all.

MR VALLY: So, the holding of those drugs by Dr Basson, after it left your possession, Dr Basson would have been in illegal possession of those drugs in terms of the law?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: With respect, that statement is incorrect.  If a person acts on the instruction of the Minister of Security and of Chief of the Defence Force and if he has access to certain substances in order to do certain analysis, there is no basis to say that it is in his possession illegally.

MR VALLY: I want to respond, I think you can be the President of the country, but if you had illegal substances and you do not follow the procedures in terms of the letter of the law, you can be charged.  The charges I'm relating to are in connection with both - you were ultimately a General in the Police Force, I'm not sure if you were Brigadier at this time already,

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, in 1984 I was a Major-General.

MR VALLY: Which is even more senior than Brigadier.  You were Major-General in the Police Force and you were a pseudo policeman but it was your laboratories, it was your department that tested items that was sent before people were convicted for possession of drugs.  Is that correct?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: That is correct yes.  I provided the material.

MR VALLY: Were you aware that it was very serious offence to have such a large quantity of habit producing substances, unlawful substances?
 My learned friend did not answer and he's just continuing with his questioning, I thought he was avoiding it, and that's why I left the matter, but he must still answer me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, except just as I thought that I should be placed in a position to make a ruling your client went ahead and answered in any event.  Now, Mr Vally, do you want to lay a basis for this conclusion, because it is really a conclusion that you are coming at, can you establish whether in fact Dr Wouter Basson did not have permission, like the General said he had permission, to be in possession.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson what Dr Neethling said, and what his counsel was implying was because the instructions came from the Minister and the Commissioner, etc, that there would be no illegality involved.  I am querying this and I'm ...(indistinct) this from two legs, but maybe I should first respond to the objection which I thought I had.  There was an act called the Medicines and related substances Act, no 101 ...(intervention)