Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-07

ADV POTGIETER: How old were you when you went through this experience in 1985?

HEADMAN DWYALI: I was fifteen years of age.

ADV POTGIETER: Now you say that Snyman and Thomas is two policemen who were assaulting  you and torturing you as you had described to us and they wanted you to make a statement.  Did you actually make a statement as a result of this treatment?

HEADMAN DWYALI: Yes, I gave a statement eventually, because I could no longer take the pain.  I had to admit to what I did not know.

ADV POTGIETER: [Indistinct] you made a confession to this these allegations of arson.  
MR

HEADMAN DWYALI: Yes, I admitted that I was guilty.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you make it to the make it to the magistrate or did you make it to one of the police officers or what?

HEADMAN DWYALI: We were taken to the Magistrate.  I first told the Magistrate that I will not give any statement.  I am waiting for an attorney I said.  The Magistrate did not make me make a statement.  But they came to fetch me and they tortured me yet again,  because I would not make a statement.  I said I will give a statement at Sanlam.
There was a special Magistrate that worked in the evenings.   I had to give the statement to this Magistrate.  I told him that I want an attorney.  Again they took me back to the cells and tortured me.  The third time when I returned I did not give a statement, but at Sanlam, I eventually gave a statement.  If I had not given a statement,  perhaps I would be dead today.

ADV POTGIETER: And that statement that you eventually gave, did you make that statement to the Magistrate that was on duty at night time also.

HEADMAN DWYALI: Yes, I gave it to the Magistrate that worked in the evenings.  I told the Magistrate that  I get tortured, because I won't give a statement.  They come in numbers and they clobber me.  I had marks,  I showed him the marks on my arms.

ADV POTGIETER: This Magistrate that you made the statement to, is the Magistrate from De Aar.  It's a local - it  was a local Magistrate.
MR

HEADMAN DWYALI: I did not see this Magistrate after he had taken my statement, but it was a Magistrate that was always there in the evenings.   During the day there was a different Magistrate all together.

ADV POTGIETER: Was that statement then used in court against you?  And were you then found guilty of arson on the basis of that statement that you made?

HEADMAN DWYALI: Yes, it is as a result of that statement that I was sentenced.

ADV POTGIETER: Was there any eye witness that came to court that said that they saw you setting these structure alight that you referred to?  Or was it only on that statement that they convicted you?

HEADMAN DWYALI: Yes, there is a lady that came.  I don't know what happened to her.

ADV POTGIETER: Now you were then sentenced, I assume with some other people, with co-accused?

HEADMAN DWYALI: There were two charges against  me.  In the one case I was sentenced for eighteen years,  the other case I was sentenced for twelve years.  Eight years,  sorry - the eight years in prison.

ADV POTGIETER: Which part of that sentence did you actually serve?  For how long were you actually in prison?

HEADMAN DWYALI: Four years, six months.

ADV POTGIETER: And just to come back and to clarify, Thomas and Snyman, were they security policemen, or what kind of policemen were they?
MR

HEADMAN DWYALI: They were investigators at the time.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct]

HEADMAN DWYALI: Yes,  Snyman is still here.  Smith and Thomas I don't see anymore, but Snyman is still here -  I think Snyman is still around.

ADV POTGIETER: [Indistinct] you say that this experience affected you mentally.  Are you getting medical treatment for that condition at present?

HEADMAN DWYALI: I go to doctors - they do not know what I am suffering from.  This is affecting my job.  My employers say that I go too much to doctor -  I spent to much time away from work.  The doctor books me off too often - end of Tape 1, Side A ...  [indistinct] is getting tired of my taking time off work.  
Last month he called me in for a meeting.  He asked me what is wrong.  I told - I told him that I am healthy, my body is healthy, but my heart is aching - he called me last month.
Every month I go to a doctor -  I don't know what I am suffering from.  My mind is not fine - even at home.  This police really beat me.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct]  - you are not married, you don't have any dependants.

HEADMAN DWYALI: I am married - no I do not have children.  I only have illegitimate children.

ADV POTGIETER: [Indistinct]

HEADMAN DWYALI: No, they do not stay with me - they are illegitimate.

ADV POTGIETER: [Indistinct] support .

HEADMAN DWYALI: Yes, I do, but I earn very little.

ADV POTGIETER: [Indistinct]
MR

HEADMAN DWYALI: No, she does not work.

ADV POTGIETER: So it's only mentally - physically are you okay. You don't have any physical complaints as a result of the treatment.

HEADMAN DWYALI: My body is not fine,  sir -  I do not sleep well.  I get tired all the time.  Even at work, whilst I am working.  I feel that my body is not well.  My employer is lenient with me, because he can see that I love my job.  I go to the doctors, but they send me to Bloemfontein, to Kimberley.  The don't know exactly what it is with me.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much.  I hand back to the Chairperson.

MARY BURTON: Headman, you say you were a member of an organisation, but you did not say the name of the organisation.

HEADMAN DWYALI: It was called Dara.

MARY BURTON: You said when Snyman and Thomas were taking you, there is a man called China who identified you.  Was it a policeman, or was it just a member of the community?

HEADMAN DWYALI: Then he was just a member of our community.  But now is a policeman.

MARY BURTON: Did he say that he saw you burning down the structures or did he just say you were a member of the organisation?

HEADMAN DWYALI: He pointed me out, because when we were toi-toiing, he was there with us.

MARY BURTON: Tell us about the treatment that you experienced at that time and your many, many months and years in prison.  It's clear that they still have - that experience still has an effect on you.  And we really hope that something can be done to help you not to feel so troubled in your heart and mind.  You are very fortunate to have work, and work that you like.  We hear so many people who are not able to find work and who are therefore extra suffering, so you are - you are really blessed in having an employer who understands some of your difficulties.  
You mentioned also that there was a friend with you who had the same treatment.  Do you know whether he has come to make a statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

HEADMAN DWYALI: He's got a problem.  He now works for the Government.  He's is to scared.  He said to me we are struggling.  He says these are difficult times.  He'll come to the Truth Commission -  give evidence -  give his report -  meanwhile in the audience -  one of his employers is there.  And that would put him in danger - he might lose his job.
So he does not want to give evidence.  He does not want come here.  He says that the guilty people, the perpetrators of  violence were left behind in the location, but it is innocent ones that went into prison, that were tortured - he refused to come.