Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

M R NDLOVU: He once reported to Mr Phillip Umhlongo that such an incident had occurred but he only reported it after he had been charged with the crime, that was the killing of Mr Gumede.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So your brother informed the chairperson, Mr Umhlongo, only when you people got arrested?

M R NDLOVU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And it's the first time that the IFP leadership knew about this incident, am I correct?

M R NDLOVU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you hold in position in the organisation, IFP?

M R NDLOVU: I was a member of the youth and I was involved in the security and protection services in the community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, no, no.  I'm talking about organisation IFP, did you hold any position of leadership?

M R NDLOVU: No, I was a member, I did not hold a position.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is a requirement for a person to become a member of the IFP, or to be fair to you what was the requirement then?

M R NDLOVU: For you to join the IFP you would have to formally join and obtain a membership card.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You simply go and tell them you joined and they write and you are a member?

M R NDLOVU: You mention, when you mention that you want to join, you state the reason why and then you join the IFP.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is there any payment done for you to become a member, subscription of some sort done?

M R NDLOVU: At that time, yes you did, payment of a fee of R10.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's go back to your informer, Sibonelo Dlamini.  What made him divulge this information to you?

M R NDLOVU: Sibonelo had fled the Mpumuza area and he had fled to Kaluza which was an ANC stronghold.  He had left his parents at Mpumuza and there were rumours that he would come to Mpumuza, he would come there and hide himself because if people saw him they would kill him.  He tried to get into contact with Tabana and he requested to see his parents in Mpumuza and he mentioned that he had fled the area because he wanted to continue with his schooling in a peaceful area and because of that he was asked to give information about what happened in Kaluza because his family was residing at Mpumuza and he would be one of the people who would be protected by the information that he would give.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did yourself or your brother make any attempt at verifying these allegations against the deceased before you could decide to kill him?

M R NDLOVU: Yes we did try, we even contacted the police in Pietermaritzburg.  We told them that there were weapons that were being sent to Kaluza, they should try and investigate about it.  We discovered one day that there was a gun that had been found in Kaluza and it had been seized in from one house during a raid but this gun had been obtained from kwaMashu.  This information we got from a Sergeant Wessel from the SAP in Pietermaritzburg.  In that way we confirmed that it must be one of those guns that were being sent by this person from Durban.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Oh, the police investigation did not link this gun to the deceased, you just drew inference that it must have been one of the guns he has been exporting?

M R NDLOVU: That is correct.  We made that assumption because the guns used by the KZP were different, for example the 7.65 used by the ZP were different from those used by the SAP.  When Sergeant Wessel told us that it was a 7.65 which was used by the ZP's we realised that it must be one of those guns that are brought in to Kaluza.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We have been told many times in other hearings, I need your confirmation, that even within the police force there were certain members of the force who were supplying guns either to IFP or to ANC.  Would you say that is correct?

M R NDLOVU: With regards to kwaZulu Natal, it is true that some members of the police force used to collaborate with political organisations, some of them were ANC or IFP members but that is something that is something they would not divulge but it did happen that ANC and IFP members were part of the police force but as a member of the police you were not supposed to show that you indeed collaborate with either party.  Many people in KZN assumed that the Zulu police used to work for the IFP which is not true because there were members within the ZP's who worked for the ANC and used to supply them with weapons to attack the IFP.  Some of them will give weapons to the SDU's to promote or to strengthen the ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  On what you've just explained, it cannot be said conclusively that that gun, investigated by yourself, by the police, was the gun supplied exclusively by the deceased, it could have been any policeman or any other person, will that be correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He has already said that he's inferred that it was the deceased which I think is implicit it could be anybody else from the ...[intervention]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I take the point, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now let's go to the scene.  When you took ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just before you do, I'd just thought you might be asking something on something else.  While we're still talking about how you found out from the police and so on, this Wessels, was it Wessels or Wessel?

M R NDLOVU: Sergeant Wessel.

MR LAX: Where was he from?

M R NDLOVU: He was stationed at Mountain Rise in Pietermaritzburg.  He was in the dog unit.

MR LAX: Was he the person you went to speak to?  How was it that you were working with him in relation to guns that were being taken from Kaluza?  You were a kwaZulu Police, he was SAP, how come you were working with him?

M R NDLOVU: Sergeant Wessel would also come to Mpumuza to look for weapons therefore we told him that they should also go to Kaluza to look for weapons, not just from Mpumuza.  We wanted assurance that they also raided Kaluza in the same way that they raided Mpumuza because they would normally come to us looking for weapons and we told them that they should do the same at Kaluza.  We were not working with him.

MR LAX: Well how did he come to tell you about the weapon that they raided in Kaluza if you weren't - why should he do that?

M R NDLOVU: He had come to my home to look for weapons and we told him that the people who had given him information that there were guns in my house were also, they also had guns in their possession and later he told us that we were indeed right that there were weapons that were being stored in Kaluza because he had found one in that area.

MR LAX: So you knew this Wessels, you obviously spoke to him on many occasions?

M R NDLOVU: Yes I knew him because he used to come to the area often.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ndlovu, you told us the reason why the deceased firearm was taken, you gave us a very lengthy reason.  But my question is to you, what did you intend doing with it?

M R NDLOVU: We would not have left the gun lying there because I used to work in these areas.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I know, I think the question Mr Ndlovu is once you had - you have given the reason why you took the gun but once you had taken the gun, what was your intention, what did you intend to do with that weapon once you decided to take it and in fact took it?

M R NDLOVU: Tabani said we should keep the weapon so that we should show it to the IFP members.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was that done?

M R NDLOVU: Tabani said he had informed Mr Umhlongo that there was a gun that had been removed from the deceased but he gave this information after we had been released, upon bail.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So Mr Umhlongo was - let me put it this way - this gun was reported to the IFP leadership four, five months down the line, am I correct?  This offence was committed ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well no it was about fourteen months down the line because he was released on bail on the 3rd June 1992 and this occurred during April 1991, yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I stand corrected.  This was reported to Umhlongo months down the line?  More than a year down the line?