Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-10

CHAIRPERSON: I wasn't looking at you sir, I was looking in the opposite direction.  Good morning.  Goeiemore.  May we please rise so that the witnesses can enter.  We remember those that are no longer with us.  Headman Nontshinga, Thobani Gola, Vuyani Wesley Fulani, Jongile Mene, Mzwamadoda Tyhali.

<UNKNOWN>: Jesus said if you abide in My word and you are My disciples the truth will set you free.  Let us pray.  Father God we come this morning into Your presence and we ask that You would lift us above our natural sorrow and our natural anger and bitterness, that we would come into this place free of all the burdens of the world knowing that You our Lord and Saviour will guide and direct everything that we do.  We commit this time Father God to You, that You would give us the truth and the truth would set Your people free.  Comfort those who mourn, be with those who are angry and take that anger away from them and renew in them Your love, that love that we cannot be separated from, that love that guides and directs Your people wherever they go.  Father God take this time and use it for Your compassion, for Your mercy and above all dear Lord, Your peace and Your love.  Amen.

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome all of you very warmly to this the second day of this special event hearing around the Bisho massacre.  As you all saw yesterday, we are going to have quite a few people who are going to come and give evidence and we want to welcome especially the former General Secretary of the South African Council of Churches, the Reverend Dr Frank Chicane.  Please stand so that they can see you.  We reserve the better for the last, his successor as General Secretary, Ms Hlophe Baum You may also rise so that they can see how beautiful you are.  
 We would also like to welcome the Chief of the Magagabe Clan.  Where are you sir?  I would like to ask you to rise as well so that everyone can see.  I was saying, I mean that you saw yesterday, we will have witnesses ranging from victims and survivors of the massacre and people who may have played a particular role in it.  We are expecting that Brigadier Gqozo may in fact come.  What I want to say, which I have kept saying throughout all our hearings ever since we started in April, that it is not always easy to give a fair hearing to everyone especially to people who may hold views that are different from your own.  
 We are learning and we have, I think, been conducting ourselves very admirably and so when that time comes it is important that whoever is a witness must be given the space and the freedom to be able to articulate their point of view and I will not permit any one to be intimidated by the remarks or the reactions of the audience.  You have up to now, conducted yourselves well and it will be a very important test when the time comes because others who may be alleged perpetrators might not come forward if the treatment they think they will get is one that makes them uncomfortable, and so we appeal to all of you that for the sake of this promotion of national unity and reconciliation, we should seek to give every one a fair chance and without further ado I will hand over to Commissioner Bongani Finca but before I do that let me introduce the panel.  
 The extreme right Mcebisi Xundu who is a member of the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee based in our office in East London.  Tiny Maya, member of the Human Rights Violations Committee based in our East London office.
 Denzil Potgieter, Commissioner, member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and based in our office in Cape Town.  Bongani Finca, Commissioner, member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and convenor of our regional office based in East London.  Mapule Ramashala, Commissioner, member of the Reparations and Rehabilitation committee based in Cape Town.  Dumisa Ntsebeza, Commissioner, member of the Human Rights Violations committee and head of our investigative unit.  June Crichton, member of the Human Rights Violations committee who has recently returned and we are very glad that that has happened.  She is based in our office in East London.  Ntsike Sandi, committee member of the Human Rights Violations committee based in our office in East London.  Bongani Finca?

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: Thank you Your Grace, I report on the matters that are going to come before the Commission today as follows.  The two matters that were held back yesterday because we couldn't complete our work, will be taken first.  Ncumisa Alice Kali appearing on the matter of Tobile Kali, murder, during the massacre and we will take Busisiwe Veronica Gwayi appearing on the matter of Thembinkosi Harold Billie, also murdered in the same massacre.  
 Your Grace we would request that we take those cases together with the first three cases in today's order.  Zolile Jonas appearing on behalf of himself for attempted murder and Sicelo Jonnie appearing also on behalf of himself, attempted murder.  And Paulina Thandeka Gibe appearing on behalf of himself, attempted murder.  Those are the first five cases that we will take at this stage and if we have time before tea, we will take the next five cases from 6 to 11 in our order and Your Grace I will announce that at that time, may I also report on the rest of the proceedings as per our schedule.  We have after tea, a submission which will primarily be focusing on the perspective of the former Ciskei government.  
 We are expecting as per the letter that was delivered to us yesterday, Brigadier Gqozo to lead that delegation from the former Ciskei government in making their submission.  We have confirmation that Mr M B Webb will be coming also.  At the time he was Minister of Foreign Affairs in Ciskei.  I confirm that we have already present in the hall, Mr P P Jacobs who was a Minister in the same government.  Mr Zantsi and Mr Ngcofe who were also ministers in the same government.  We are grateful indeed that they have come to give perspective of what that government thought about this massacre, before, when it happened and after it happened.
 We will then also be taking a submission from the South African Council of Churches and we are most grateful that the former general Secretary, Dr Frank Chicane, is here accompanied by the present General Secretary Ms Hlophe Baum whom we have already welcomed Your Grace.  They are going to be giving us a submission on a proposal that came from churches to try and avert the bloodshed that was eminent at the time, on this massacre.  We will take lunch and then the afternoon we will devote to listening to testimonies of victims.  I propose Your Grace that you accept that order?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  Perhaps those Ministers that you were referring to, former Ministers, I mean we should also welcome them, I mean, thank you.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: Reverend Xundu I think is going to do the calling.

REV XUNDU: Mr Chairman, I would like to call to the stand Ncumisa Alice Kali, Busisiwe Veronica Gwayi, Zolile Jonas, Sicelo Jonnie and Paulina Thandeka Gibe.  Mr Chairman I would like to swear the witnesses in, starting with Ncumisa Kali.  I'd like you to stand please.

REV XUNDU: We would like Alice to please come closer to the microphone.  Alice what is your clan name?

WITNESS:  I am a Gadebe.

REV XUNDU: Thank you very much.  Here you are telling us about what happened on that fateful day of the 7th September 1992 and the slaying of your brother Thembinkosi Harold Billie.  Let me start all over again Your Grace, my papers seem to be mixed up.  Kali is Mapule's witness.  I am speaking to Gwayi.  I'd like to hand over to Mapule.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mapule, take over.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 2 - 10 SEPTEMBER 1996

CASE NO: 3

UNKNOWN: NCUMISA ALICE KALI [mother]
NCUMISA ALICE KALI   Duly sworn states

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Good morning Ms Kali.  Can you hear me?