Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: After they had passed away that's when we, the youth, organised ourselves.  I went to Sipimo offices and I reported the matter that there were people coming from the tribal areas attacking us.  That was the time when I was charged because I had already absconded my bail.  People who had been killed, ten of them, at Empangisa.  I used to report in the office.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, furthermore you mentioned that you had absconded in your criminal court case.  What was that criminal court case all about in paragraph 2 and 4?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I was arrested because of participating in this violence.  People from Empangisa and Maholdo were attacking each other.

MR SIBEKO: So you got arrested as result of your activity in respect of the matter which you subsequently absconded?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I was arrested and I was given bail.  That is when the police who were supposed to come and fetch me everytime I was supposed to appear before the court didn't come and fetch me.  After I had told the magistrate ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, you've told us that in great, great detail.  We've written everything down as you said what happened about your case, the police wouldn't give you a lift and you were forced to stay away.  Don't repeat it, just respond, listen to what the question is, just respond directly to the question, don't retell the whole story.  We've already got it, we won't miss anything, just tell us something new, alright, and stick to the question please?  Yes Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: This criminal case which you subsequently absconded, what was it all about?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes didn't he answer that now?  He participated in this conflict and he was charged.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairperson, in fact I didn't follow it, in fact ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes there was some conflict and he was charged for participating in the conflict.

MR SIBEKO: I put it to you Sir one of the victims who happens to Mr Njanga, he is going to testify in this Committee that actually it had nothing to do with the political conflict in the area and in fact it had to do with, it was actually an attempted murder where of course you had a quarrel with a certain gentleman where you shot him, a Mr Makwiki, that is all.  It had nothing to do with the political conflict or anything in the area per se.  What will you say to that?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: It is politically motivated.  Even then in my trial they did explain this.  I didn't want to tell the court that I was an ANC because I was scared.

MR SIBEKO: I further put it to you that Mr Njanga is going to testify that actually you had no reason to fear the police because they used to provide you transport you to and fro court and at no stage of course did any harm befall you?  So of course there was no reason to fear about your affiliation, political affiliation, what do you say to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree or disagree?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I disagree because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  No, no, not because, because of nothing.  Next question?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Njanga again will further testify to this court that on the day in question actually in fact he himself announced himself that when they arrived at her hut, he was the one who of course identified himself as the police officer and you did confirm that you were familiar with his voice.  In fact there was no reason for you to react in the manner in which you reacted?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the shooting, are we there now, on the incident.  So did you follow that?  Have you got a response, one of the policemen said that you knew him or you knew his voice of whatever so you don't need to shoot at them?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: After I heard his voice then I didn't continue shooting but when I first started shooting he had said nothing.

MR SIBEKO: And I further put it to you that actually the victims furthermore they're going to testify that in actual fact you are the one who opened fire at them first in fact and thereafter then, before they could do anything you threw a hand grenade at them?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think there's no dispute there, I think his evidence is that he cocked his gun, somebody kicked open the gate and then he opened fire, right?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Finally Sir, I put it to you then the victims furthermore are going to certify before this Committee that in actual fact this had nothing to do with the political conflict because there was none whatsoever.  In fact you were running away from them of the pending charge which of course was already hanging over your head.  That is why you reacted in the manner you had reacted by shooting at them in fact without any provocation?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you can respond to that but you don't need to repeat what you've already told us.  If there's anything new that you want to say in response to that statement then you can do so?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: It was truly political and I was politically active at that time.  They can say whatever they want to say.  I had reason for being scared of them because I realised after they didn't come and pick me up that they wanted me to be killed by those people.  The reason why they were taking me to court was because they were protecting me.

MR SIBEKO: Now how many times did they take you to court?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: If I'm not mistaken it was quite a number of times and the last time they brought me back home they searched my house, they were looking for arms, firearms and they couldn't find any but I think they'd taken me quite a number of times.

MR SIBEKO: During that occasion when they used to take you to and fro of course you had become quite accustomed to them, more specifically the ...(indistinct) those people who used to ferry you to court?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes Nyembe more especially because usually he'd come even when he was alone and he told me that other police were not prepared to come back and take me and he also told me that it was his last time.  That's when I realised that I was supposed to go and hide because I saw that there was no one who was going to protect me.

MR SIBEKO: Sir I further put it to you the victims are going to testify that at no stage as being the members of the South African Police Service in any way assisted IFP in any fight whatsoever in that area.  But there again, what do you say to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree or disagree?  The police said they never helped the IFP.  Do you agree or disagree.  You don't have to tell us the full story again that you testified about.

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I disagree because sometimes you'll find SAP who are IFP sympathisers and sometimes you will find SAP who are ANC sympathisers therefore I cannot say I agree or disagree.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words your statement in paragraph 2.10 in page 22 of your affidavit you are not certain where you said as explained "they were assisting Inkatha who were fighting us" so in the light of what you've just said you cannot be quite certain because there were others who were fighting who were IFP and who were ANC so the ANC/SACP there was no way they could have assisted IFP members that is Inkatha?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I will explain that.  There are SAP police who are IFP sympathisers and also SAP who are ANC sympathisers.  They just belong to SAP as police.

MR SIBEKO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibeko.  Mr Mapoma any questions?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?