Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1999-06-21

MS LOCKHAT: So was your duty to take care of the weapons that were in the truck as well as to load people that were injured? Did that incorporate all your duties?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: The way I was trained, a soldier would be able to use his own initiative. You'd not just leave things unattended, you'd use your own initiative to do things even if you're not instructed to do them if you're involved in an operation.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dlavane, do you have any re-examination.

MR DLAVANE: No re-examination, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr Modisane?

ADV SIGODI: Just one aspect. Did you, before this operation, did you have any other meetings concerning the coup? Was it the first time that you?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, we had meetings.

ADV SIGODI: So, before this time, you already knew that there was going to be a coup? It was, was it an ongoing thing that was being planned before the 10th of February?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Is not days before we had only one meeting, that was around half-past eleven on the 9th of February. That is when we knew that the operation to overthrow the government was envisaged and planned. And then he said to us we should not leave the premises, he will come back to explain to us in details about the operation. And then when he returned he came around half-past one to two. Then at that time we started with the operation.

ADV SIGODI: Now what I want to find out is the background to the coup. What happened before? If there had been any other plans before the 9th of February 1988?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: No, I did not have a knowledge any meetings prior to the 9th of February.

ADV SIGODI: And this dissatisfaction which the Bophuthatswana Defence Force had with the government, did it only culminate on the 9th of February 1988?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: I would say our dissatisfaction was there all the time, but we did not have the way of resolving our problems. Because before then, General Temmer was called by Bophuthatswana Security even if I'm not able to remember the date, where he was explained to about our dissatisfaction or the way we were treated.

ADV SIGODI: Okay. Thanks, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Adv Sigodi. Adv Bosman do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Modisane, if you turn to page 6 of your application, do you have it before you? Paragraph 13, the question there is, are there civil proceedings pending or envisaged as a result of the acts, and your answer there is, yes. Can you see that?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, I do.

ADV BOSMAN: Who has instituted civil proceedings against you?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Maybe I was not able to understand the English because I was advised by my legal counsel as to whether, what does that question wanted to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Is anybody, because of what took place on the 10th of February 1988, suing you for damages or taking you to court? Not a criminal court, but a civil court?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: No one did that.

ADV BOSMAN: Is this really just a mistake, an incorrect answer? We just want the record to be right.

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: It is mistake I did.

ADV BOSMAN: Right, and then you, when you were asked by the Evidence Leader what your duties were, your specific duties that day and you said that they were to guard the arms in the truck and also to pick up any people who might be injured or killed in the coup. But prior to this you gave evidence that you went to Mr Holele's house which you entered and that you were instructed to do that. Who gave you those instructions?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: The instructions came from Major Pirie that we should unplug the phones from various houses.

ADV BOSMAN: So did he personally instruct you to go into that house and to unplug the phone?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Within the Defence Force at that time, the way we were so many, he would not be able to speak directly to, or instruct a particular person to do something. If he instructed one person that person would relay the instructions to various members of the Defence Force of what should be done.

ADV BOSMAN: But can you remember who instructed you? The instruction came from Major Pirie, but who sort of relayed the instruction to you?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: That is Manyemeng.

ADV BOSMAN: And what was his rank?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: He was an instructor at the time. But he was not given the rank, but we used to call him an instructor.

ADV BOSMAN: So was he senior to you?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, he was senior to me.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Modisane, when did you join the Bophuthatswana Defence Force?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: On the 17th of March 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you were unconditionally released from prison during 1991. You were tried and charged in the Bophuthatswana Supreme Court. Is that correct?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were also imprisoned in Bophuthatswana?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know in terms of what provisions, or why it was that you were released unconditionally in 1991?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: There were many things which happened that we should be released. Firstly, is hunger strikes, then secondly, is that we smuggled letters outside. I remember that we wrote letters to F W de Klerk, then we wrote letters outside, for example, I remember a particular time that we sent a letter to George Bush in America. We requested that they should put pressure on the Bophuthatswana Government that we should be released.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the order for your release came from the Bophuthatswana Government as far as you know.

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, it came from the Bophuthatswana Government.

CHAIRPERSON: And with your release in 1991, were the other people who were also convicted of the same offence arising out of the same incident also released? Were you all released?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: We were all released though not at the same time. We were released in groups, but the one who remained behind was Sergeant Major Timothy Pirie.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dlavane, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR DLAVANE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulligan?

MR MULLIGAN: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seabela?

MR SEABELA: There are no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Modisane, that concludes your testimony.
APPLICANT EXCUSED