Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

MR DUKADA: In other words all your files were empty as a unit before the killing of Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Could you please come again?

MR DUKADA: You had done absolutely nothing as a unit in terms of gathering information about terrorism in Transkei until Ndondo was killed on the 24th September?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, there were some informations, but not relating to this one of Batandwa.

MR DUKADA: That's the information I need Mr Dandala.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No there was no information about him.

MR DUKADA: No no what I'm saying, the information I need.  What information did you gather about terrorism in Transkei before the death of Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I cannot recall but there were some reports that were made by our unit.

MR DUKADA: Which reports?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that prior to the death of the deceased, your unit had been gathering information on other activities not relating to the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Counsel wants to know is what are those activities?  What information did you gather relating to other activities?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That there is a person somewhere, a trained person somewhere but I cannot recall clearly the reports that were made but there were some reports that were made by this unit.  But I cannot recall the exact ... [inaudible].

CHAIRPERSON: So is the position that you had information that there were people trained, there was a person who had been trained somewhere?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had no idea who this individual was and where he was at the time?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you responsible for gathering that information or did somebody else gather that information?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I was not responsible because as we were five, so I was not responsible by myself in that information.

CHAIRPERSON: But you personally, had you gathered any information?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  In other words Mr Dandala, right where you are seated now, you are not in a position to tell this Committee at all which people in Transkei were recorded in your books as being involved in terrorist activities?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: There were some that I knew.  People like Sisa Ngombane.

MR DUKADA: Yes.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: People like Mr Mquegeza.

MR DUKADA: Yes.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: People like, others, I have forgotten their names.

MR DUKADA: Yes, and what was this information for now.  If you get the information about certain people what would happen?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Sorry?

MR DUKADA: What would you do with that information, say you get the name of Sisa Mbongane, what would you do about him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I would take the information to the head office.

MR DUKADA: So that arrest could be made?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: So that he could be arrested later.

MR DUKADA: You know the police in parts of South Africa at that time had their own unit or units dealing with terrorism, is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know but as there were these people I was going with, that could be possible.

MR DUKADA: And surely Mr Dandala your underground.

CHAIRPERSON: That could be possible, are you saying that it's possible that the South African Police had it's own security branch members who were dealing with these matters?  You don't know about that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That there were some units?

CHAIRPERSON: Similar to your unit?  The underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And surely your underground unit was working hand in hand with any relevant unit existing in the Republic of South Africa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Otherwise in Transkei we were just working around Transkei, not in South Africa.  But I cannot say we were working hand in hand with the South African police members.

MR DUKADA: Why, because.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Because.

MR DUKADA: Sorry, do you want to finish?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Because we were working in Transkei only.

MR DUKADA: Yes but surely your underground unit must have had dealings with any relevant body dealing with terrorism in South Africa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Are you saying that, sorry?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Because as we were working in Transkei we were not in a position to know everything in South Africa.

MR DUKADA: Even a matter relating to the security of the State?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As we were working around Transkei really we didn't know what was happening in South Africa.

MR DUKADA: So your evidence that the underground unit had no dealings with what was happening in South Africa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And no member of, sorry, no member of the South African Police was working with this unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Now in your evidence you mention that the South African Police were operating in Transkei with full knowledge of authorities in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And surely there were meetings between members of the security branch in South Africa and those in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know in the higher authorities, I don't know.

MR DUKADA: Now before the killing of Mr Ndondo which instances where you were working with members of the security branch in South Africa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: There were no instances that I worked with members of South Africa.

MR DUKADA: Until it was only this day?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: That is the, in fact 23rd September 1985?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: '85, yes.

MR DUKADA: It was your first day to deal with members of the South African security branch?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Were politicians in Transkei briefed about the activities of underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Can you come again please?

MR DUKADA: Were politicians in Transkei briefed about the activities of the underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Now Mr Dandala, surely, you are a Transkeian, and have been in Transkei for quite some time?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And were you born in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And 1984 in Transkei was a year of crises at the University of Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Okay.  There were deportations, banishments and arrests as well as detention of students?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Do you agree with that?  And surely your five, as a member of an underground unit, had some information about these student activities at the University?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I was recruited late, I'm sure it was November, between November and December 1984 to the security branch.

MR DUKADA: Yes, but.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: So I don't know about those deportations exactly.  It was the thing that I heard from the radios.

MR DUKADA: And '85, in fact to be more precise, 1984 and 1985 there was a crises at the University?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And members of the police force were deployed to look after the unrest?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know.

MR DUKADA: You see, long before the killing of the deceased, do you remember an incident when a Minister of Education, the late Mr Bubu, read out the names of certain students at the University of Transkei who had received military training at Lesotho?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't remember.

MR DUKADA: Yes, but that was broadcast in Radio Transkei long before the killing of Ndondo?  You must know that.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't remember that.

MR DUKADA: You mean as a member of the underground unit you were not aware about that?