Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I picked up that the speech was slightly slurred but that's a matter of interpretation, it would have to be listed to again.

MR BRANDT: Yes.  Now Madam, you were in fact afforded the opportunity - at your request, to see your husband at 3 o'clock in the morning?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR BRANDT: That again I submit, is not consistent with a person who is trying to threaten and pressurise you.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, that's correct but apparently he had received word that Mr Jacobs was coming or something because when I saw my husband it was with Mr Jacobs who had come to tell us about Doctor Treurnicht.

MR BRANDT: Nevertheless, he was not obliged to allow you to see your husband?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, absolutely correct, yes.  Actually, if I may say, the  - I repeat, the discussion we're now talking about is Mr Deetleffs's approach - personal approach and so forth.

MR BRANDT: Madam, let's make it clear, Captain Deetleffs had to get information from you and he used anything admissible to get it from you and by being the nice guy - if that succeeded, so be it and he was the nice guy.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, but there were other times when he wasn't the nice guy and it's not recorded.

MR BRANDT: Yes, but that still did not force you to say anything untruthful as you testified?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

MR BRANDT: Thank you.
	Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRANDT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, is there anything that has transpired now which puts you in a position to wish to put questions - on ground that has not already been covered?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I wouldn't like to put any questions now in view of what appears to be the confusion in relation to what is and what is not on the tape.  I understand that counsel for the witness is going to show portions of it, may I reserve the position until that has been done and then we will inform the court whether we want to ask any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are.

GEORGE BIZOS: If given an opportunity to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, would you like to put questions at this stage or would you like to reserve questions until the cross-examination has been over?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I will choose to put questions after everything has been done under cross-examination, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Well now, there will be no point in asking you whether you wish to re-examine your witness at this stage, you'd rather reserve that until all the questioning is over.

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct Mr Chairman, what we'd like to clear up at this stage is just with regard to the tape itself, to ensure at this stage - before this stands down, that this tape is intact and not tampered with as appears on page 402 or Exhibit R4 continued - from 50 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  No, my question is that you don't want to re-examine your witness at this stage?

MR PRINSLOO: Not at this stage Mr Chairman, that is quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
	It's the view of the Committee that we should adjourn at this stage, once more in the hope that whilst we have adjourned, this whole question about whether the tapes correctly reflect what is transcribed and whether paragraph 54, 59 and 60 are still on the tape or not - this should be sorted out once and for all and I trust that that will be done during the adjournment.  If it takes a little longer than the usual 15 minutes break please devote your time and energy to get it done as soon as possible.

MR PRINSLOO: As you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

GEORGE BIZOS: May I raise one other matter?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to move an application that the Committee puts the applicants on terms as to whether or not they admit or deny the statements made by senior Conservative Party persons, we have not had any approach at this stage and unless the Committee puts them on terms, I don't think that we will get anywhere Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought we sorted that out yesterday when Mr Prinsloo, you and Mr Bizos were going to apply your minds to that aspect of the matter.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, after the adjournment I will speak to Mr Bizos - now during the adjournment, and tell him what we've established and we'll put it on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you will save a lot time I hope.

MR PRINSLOO: We'll do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MRS GAY DERBY-LEWIS: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, gentlemen?

MR BRANDT: Mr Chairman, I had the opportunity to go through the video again with my colleagues and as far as the relevant paragraphs are concerned, I wish to place the following on record
Page 402, paragraph 52 - as previously indicated, that paragraph does appear there except for the word: "Hani's" - that does not appear on the video.
With regard to paragraph 54 - it does appear there except the third sentence: "Kuba was supposed to change the number plates" - that does not appear there on the video.
As regards paragraph  ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: Is that paragraph 54?

MR BRANDT: Paragraph 54.
Paragraph 59 - this is not a verbatim transcript, it reads something like the following: Clive said: "Maybe it was APLA, the Government" etc.

CHAIRPERSON: So the transcript does not coincide with the video on that point ...[intervention]

MR BRANDT: It does not verbatimly coincide.
And as regards paragraph 60 - the import thereof is: "I asked Clive about the gun but he never told me"

JUDGE WILSON: It is there though?

MR BRANDT: It is there.

JUDGE WILSON: It hasn't been deleted?

MR BRANDT: No, Mr Chairman.  With regard to the deletion, it would seem that I'm the skunk in this scenario in that the notes end at paragraph 60 and obviously I looked at the end tape to find it and I couldn't find it and as the tape ended - had it been there, it stands to reason that it would have been deleted because it isn't there at the end of the tape.  The tape does end at 12:56:13 but these portions which I've now referred to appears at 11:19 to 11:27, so my apologies if somebody was misled on my omission to pick that up at 11.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Prinsloo, Ms van der Walt...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, may I - before the re-examination, merely place something on record and ask one or two question in relation to these passages Mr Chairman - now that they have been clarified?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought before I allow you to cross-examine witnesses, I just want to know what the attitude of Mr Prinsloo and Ms van der Walt ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon, yes of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, it is correct, the tape was replayed as far this is concerned and it does appear on the tape as indicated by Mr Brandt - that is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And there are differences between the transcript and the tape on certain matters?

MR PRINSLOO: That is ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: That has been pointed out.

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct, it appears that the person writing it differed from it Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Now then, before you start cross-examining - Mr Bizos, on this aspect of the matter have anything to say?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I've already indicated that I want to say something to Mrs Derby-Lewis in relation to this Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mrs Derby-Lewis, the suggestion that you may have interfered with the tape was obviously an unfounded
suggestion and I want to apologise to you for it but you have heard my learned friend as to where I got the information from and from where I drew the inference, I hope that you will accept that apology.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you very much Mr Bizos.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.