bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-06

COMMISSIONER: Can I just say Chairperson, I mean I said earlier on that the stories from this morning are connected and we are, Albert Amandla is going to be talking about that fatal night of the 12th of January 1991.  He is specifically going to be talking about his brother, Christopher, whose name has been mentioned already this morning.  But I think we must just remember that on that night 38 people were killed and 40 were injured when a group of men indiscriminately sprayed AK47 gunfire at the vigil that was organised for Christopher.  Christopher himself was an ANC member and a member of the Sebokeng Crime Prevention Unit.  He was kidnapped and killed near Boipatong on the 5th of January 1991.  Amandla I welcome you, good afternoon.

ALBERT AMANDLA NANGALEMBE: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Will you please introduce us to the people who are accompanying you.

ALBERT AMANDLA NANGALEMBE: Next to me is my mother, Margaret Nangalembe and my aunt Elizabeth Maseko.

COMMISSIONER: Welcome.  Amandla I am going to be handing over to Professor Piet Meiring who will be assisting you in telling your story.  Thank you.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Nangalembe it is my privilege to assist you.  It is a harrowing tale you have to tell to us, a very difficult story ...(intervention)

COMMISSIONER: Amandla would you just stand to take the oath.
HRV/312 ALBERT/...
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ALBERT AMANDLA NANGALEMBE: (Sworn states)

PROF MEIRING: Amandla let us proceed then.  I would suggest that you tell your story in two phases.  That you first concentrate on your brother Christopher and what happened to him and then after you have told us about the 5th and 6th of January when he was abducted and killed, then we can turn to the 12th of January when the vigil was taking place at the house and the massacre that occurred then.  But let us talk about Christopher and then afterwards about the vigil and the massacre.  But please tell your story and take your time in doing that.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-06

COMMISSIONER: Amandla can we just stop you while we give your mother some help please.  Can the briefer please help Mrs...

CHAIRPERSON: Please we request you to be silent.

COMMISSIONER: Mrs Nangalembe can we proceed?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-07

CHAIRPERSON: I hand you first to Dr Randera and then Mrs Seroke.

DR RANDERA: Mr Hadebe good afternoon and welcome.

NOTILE HADEBE: Good afternoon also.

DR RANDERA: You are also going to tell us a very sad story about your daughter Patricia Hadebe who was killed and Mrs Joyce Seroke is going to help you.

NOTILE HADEBE: (sworn states)

MS SEROKE: You are here to tell us the story about Patricia your daughter.  On the 20th of June you were together with your family going to visit your brother-in-law.  We will kindly ask you to share with us the events of that day leading to Patricia's death.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-05

MS MKESE: Mrs Mabona, I just want to know from you whether you can assist us.  I will take you a little bit back to the funeral.  You have said in your statement also here that your husband was buried by the government.  Can you just tell us about the day of the funeral, was there a strong police presence, were there people who were speakers, whatever you can remember.  That will help us a lot to get clarity of that picture that you have given us.

MRS KONSATSAMA ELIZABETH MABONA: I can't say anything about the funeral.  People came in large numbers.  And we were taken to Sharpeville veld and then we were asked questions as to what happened that led to the death of my husband but we have never received any threat of any kind on that day.

MS MKESE: One last question from me.  There are many HRV/793 women/...
11
women whom we have heard who tells us that their beloved ones were killed.  I would like you to assist us as a Commission and just give us your opinion as to what needs to be done to help those women to heal.

MRS KONSATSAMA ELIZABETH MABONA: I find it too difficult to raise the children, to send the children to school.  You know so many things that will bring their real condolences to a person.  They should take place.

COMMISSIONER: We thank you very much, madam.  We are very weak but we are trying to bring our condolences to all those who suffered the way you have.  I would suggest that the women in our nation should be praised, we should thank God for this precious gift that he has given us, the women like yourself because most of the women suffered a lot and many times when we look men are portrayed heros but when we look deep into our history we have to give women the first preference, we have to refer to them as real heros because they have carried this burden, they have carried their terrible pain and still today you still see them as women.  You see them as people who guide their children, who teach them and who raise them.  We have to say to women we thank you for the assistance that you have given us to achieve the freedom that we have today.  We thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-07

MAMOTAKE VALENTINA MATSELETSELE: I had hope in Juwel because he was a friend of my son and I thought he would come to tell us the truth.

MS SEROKE: Now if he doesn't appear - did you take any initiative to go to his place to ask him about these issues?

MAMOTAKE VALENTINA MATSELETSELE: No.  I haven't taken any initiative.  According to me and the family we didn't want to involve so many people.  We had hoped that the Truth Commission would help us, would shed a bit of light, because it seems as if now I am competing with them because my son is not back and their's is back.

MS SEROKE: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine has a number of questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson.  I will be very brief because it's not easy to have to be questioned all the time.  One of the worst things about grief and sorry is not to know, is not to know for sure what really happened about a loved one, so I am going to ask you just one or two questions to try and see if we can't get more information so that we can try and help you.  Now obviously the person by the name of Juwel is an important link in the whole story, can you remember what his last name, his surname was?

MAMOTAKE VALENTINA MATSELETSELE: I only know is name Sir, but I know his home.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  You say he lives in Zone 11?

MAMOTAKE VALENTINA MATSELETSELE: Yes.
HRV/799

DR BORAINE: /...
10

DR BORAINE: Do you know the address?

MAMOTAKE VALENTINA MATSELETSELE: I do not know the number.

DR BORAINE: Do you know the street?

MAMOTAKE VALENTINA MATSELETSELE: I do not know the name of the street Sir.

DR BORAINE: I will tell you why I am asking is because even though you may not wish to go there and I respect your views it may be possible for one of the investigators of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to call at his home and to ask him what he knows about your son and in particular what he knows what happened to him, because I think that's very important for you to have some certainty.  And also to find out if he really did die as to where exactly he was buried to see if there is any chance of bringing his bones back.  So we will ask our investigative team.  But if you or any member of your family have any more information about the address or the surname would you try and give that to us before the end of the day.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Matseletsele thank you for coming.  Thank you for bringing Mpumela and your mother with you.  We really appreciate it that you came.  And as Dr Boraine said we would like to follow up on the story.  We would like to help you in every way we can to get more information.  And you may know that you are not the only one who are anguishing about a beloved one that died in exile in a far off country.  The Truth Commission has to look into many cases and we will be coming with proposals to Parliament on how we can bring back the remains, the bones of the beloved ones to bury them where they should be buried.  Thank you for coming and may the Lord give you peace with you and your family, all the best.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-07

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Galela before I let you go let me say to you that as with the other witnesses we really do appreciate your coming to us and the fact that you brought your two sons, Witness and Caswell, with you. Thank you for your testimony.  It is also part of the overall picture that we do have to complete.  Can I say this from my heart Mrs Galela that we have listened to your story, you shared your pain with us.  You know the first hearing of the TRC in the
HRV/810 Eastern/...
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Eastern Cape at one stage there was a mother just like you and she told us the story of what happened to her son who was 14 years old and he was brutally murdered and tortured and it was as difficult for her to tell the story as it was for you today.  After she had told her story I asked her during the lunch break, old mother was it worth your while to relive the pain, to tell the story, and she said "Yes, perhaps tonight I will sleep for the first time through the night".  I do hope that this has been a healing experience for you and that you and your family will be able to live with this, and that you will be able to sleep through the night after telling your story.  Thank you, thank you Witness, thank you Caswell, thank you for coming to us today.  May the Lord bless you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-08

UNKNOWN: When the killings took place the child was studying.  Was the child not affected.

AKINA MAGODA: No the child was affected because that is his sister who was involved in this.
HRV/823

UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: Was your husband working?

AKINA MAGODA: He was working.

UNKNOWN: Was he not sick at any stage?

AKINA MAGODA: No the only illness that I know of was the injury that he sustained because he was attacked.  He was only attacked, that was the only thing I know but I never came to know the cause of his death actually.

UNKNOWN: I thank you.
PROF. MEIRING: Just two short questions I would like to ask Mrs Magoda. The first, how old is Dolly's child, your grandchild?

AKINA MAGODA: The child is now nine years.
PROF. MEIRING: Then the second question? Was there any inquest after the shooting? Was there any investigation by the police or anybody else?

AKINA MAGODA: My husband was handling the whole matter and he said to me he had to go to report this to the police, but because of the sudden illness, he couldn't. But the policeman came to my home after the death of my husband and they asked as to his whereabouts and my son told them, "No my father had died".  That was the last day we saw them until today.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Professor Meiring.  Mrs Magoda, I do not have any questions. We have listened carefully to what you have said and the loss that you suffered on that night with your daughter dying and probably a son in law because you said you knew that they were in a relationship. But not only that, it sounds from what you were saying that Dolly was your husband's favourite and we know, we hear all the time where parents, a parent or a loved one passes away soon after something like this has happened, as I'm sure your HRV/823 husband/...
12
husband must have been.  We've also heard your request for help with Dolly's child and you will hear from the Commission once the policy is developed and once we've made a finding. Thank you very much for coming.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-08

DR RANDERA: Mrs Nhlapho I just want to, that's my last question I promise you, I want to clarify that position again.  I mean you say the riot police were there and helicopters were there, but the people who actually shot your son you mentioned the three policemen, this policemen called Chaka and Makubela and somebody else they were Municipal police, they were not riot police as I understand it.
HRV/826

AGNES NHLAPHO: /...
11

AGNES NHLAPHO: They were mixed, there were police from Houtkop, from De Deur, from Everton, it was just a mixture of policemen.

DR RANDERA: And everybody was shooting?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Yes all of them were shooting, including Ketisi and the gang, they were all shooting.

DR RANDERA: Besides this four year old child and your son who was killed were there any other injuries with all the shooting going on?

AGNES NHLAPHO: No, no, they were just aiming at Mzwaki that's it.  And also that four year old it was just a mistake because he was just lingering in the house because the bullet went through the window and that's how he got shot.

DR RANDERA: My last question Mrs Nhlapho, was there an inquest held?

AGNES NHLAPHO: No there was no inquest whatsoever.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Nhlapho what happened to Senatla, where is he, can you tell us?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Senatla is around, right now he's in Pretoria at Makulwene.  He is attending some course as a soldier.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, on that same issue what is his surname, Senatla is his surname, and the first name?

AGNES NHLAPHO: I don't quite remember his surname.  Senatla is the name we just used, it's not a surname, Senatla is not the surname.

MS SEROKE: But when we can try to find out what his surname is can we be successful?

AGNES NHLAPHO: Yes you will be.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Nhlapho we have heard your story.  We have heard also so many times where people lost their children
HRV/826 really/...
12
really on the eve of the changes in our country.  You lost your son in 1992 and at that time the political parties had already been legalised.  I think the President had also been released.  And it's to me I cry with you today because your son had left the country and had become a MK soldier, had come back, I am sure he had enormous energies and resources to build our nation and today he's not there to help us build our nation.  We have heard your requests and we will heed them.  Thank you very much for coming and sharing your story with us today.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-08

CHAIRPERSON: Before I hand over to my colleague Piet Meiring, who is going to lead the discussions and the questions I would like Mr Phele to stand up and repeat the oath.

ABEL PHELE: (sworn states)

MS SEROKE: I see that there is a woman accompanying you, can you introduce her to us please?

ABEL PHELE: This is my daughter.

MS SEROKE: We welcome your daughter.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  Professor Meiring will you please take over.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Phele may I again say to you welcome and thank you for being with us and to tell the story of your son.  Just before I give you the opportunity just to clear up something, is your son named Frans Molefe Phele, is Molefe the middle name?

ABEL PHELE: Yes Molefe is another name.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you so much.  Please tell us the story of your son.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-08

DR RANDERA: Thank you Sir.  Mr Phele we have listened carefully to your story.  Like so many other parents you mourn for your son still, and we empathise with you on that.  We have listened to your requests and we have noted those requests and we hope that we will be able to help you in your requests.  Thank you very much for coming today.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-08

MAPHAKA PLAATJIE MOSIA: He was an ANC member.  The elderly people cannot tell you exactly what their children were doing but I only heard that he was an ANC member.

DR RANDERA: Mr Mosia thank you very, very much for coming here today.  We heard earlier on from Anna already about what happened on that night inside her house.  Not only did you lose a son but the children also lost their father, and they of course have been orphaned by this tragic event.  I sometimes wonder how many of our children have been orphaned and if it wasn't for the community, extended family network that there is what cost that would be to our nation.  I thank you for coming today and sharing your experiences and we have heard you and we have noted you.  Thank you very much.

MAPHAKA PLAATJIE MOSIA: I thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-05

COMMISSIONER: ... who were involved came to be known as the Sharpeville Six and Mr Khumalo, I welcome you this afternoon.

MR DUMA JOSHUA KHUMALO: Good afternoon, sir.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Khumalo, my colleague Mrs Mkese is going to help you in telling your story but before we get to that will you please stand to take the oath.

MR DUMA JOSHUA KHUMALO: (s.s.)

COMMISSIONER: Before I hand over to Mrs Mkese will you please introduce the person who is with you this afternoon.

MRS MKESE: This is a person who is taking care of me.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Duma, I welcome the person who is taking care of you as well.  Mrs Mkese.

MRS MKESE: We welcome you, sir.  I will just request you to tell the Commission about your life just briefly.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-06

DR RANDERA: Mrs Ndlebe, before I ask my questions I just want to make comment on something you said.  On the night of the funeral some police came round to the house and almost broke the door down.  One wonders what manner of people these were, that on the night of a funeral where people are still mourning their dead that they come and harass people even further and it is so important for the work of the Commission that the police must come forward and speak about this themselves.  And I just want us to think about that.  I just want to ask about Zwandile.  You say he was a friend of Christopher.  Was he involved in the political structures in his area?

MRS ELLI NDLEBE: All that I know is that he was an ANC member.

DR RANDERA: That is all I want to ask.  Thank you Mrs Ndlebe.
HRV/875 DR ALI/...
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DR ALI: I would just like to know whether Sebongele actually made a statement.  Do you know - did you make a statement to the Commission?

MRS ELLI NDLEBE: Yes, she did.

DR ALI: Thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Mrs Ndlebe, we thank you for your coming along with your daughter-in-law.  Coming to share with us the things that happened to you which were so painful.  Now the whole of Sebokeng experienced this, especially the Zone 7 people.  Up to the time where you lost your son.  As Dr Randera has already mentioned, we do feel bad about the fact that when you were still mourning the police came, rude, to harass you, kicking the doors, not feeling sorry for you about what you were going through at the time.  It is really painful that Michael left his wife, young as she is, and their son also died.  You don't even have any grandchild.  We do feel bad for you.  We do trust and hope that, as Dr Randera has already made mention, we do hope that the police also will come forward to explain all these things.  We thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-05

COMMISSIONER: Mr Ramohoase we want to thank you. We have listened to your story and we have listened to your request.  We will try as the Commission to see what kind of help can we offer you because we as the Commission do not have powers to compensate people but we are here to get stories and make recommendations to the President of the country as to what kind of help can the people get and then he will take this message back to the parliament and they will decide on who gets help.  But it is a very good thing that it is now over 30 years since the incident and you have been carrying this burden since that time.  And the kind of compensation that you got, even if it was R60, it is really shaking to think that human life can be valued to that amount.  You say you are not sure, it might be R30 or it might be R60 and it is has just gone down from the R88 one.  We don't know,
HRV/902 maybe/...
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maybe the third one is going to tell us it went down, it dropped to R50.   One of the - I think in our capacity also to laugh is a great gift that God has given us, to laugh that we do not cry.  Because to think I mean that you can give someone having ...   We are going to take a break for tea.  We will come back at half past 11.  Can you please stand and remain in your places so that the witnesses go out first.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask the last witness for today, Reverend, I will ask Reverend Thema to come forward and give us his testimony.  Tata, I know even yesterday you have been here.  It has been really, really a long wait for you.  I would ask you to stand before the Commission.  I will ask you to stand.

REV THEMA: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Joyce Seroke to assist you in giving your testimony.

MS SEROKE: We apologise for this long wait, but I am sure you will bear with us with the long testimonies we have had before you.  We have received your well throughout statement and I would like us to confine ourselves to the Churches perspective, particularly regarding the 1976 unrest.  Reverend Thema it is interesting to remember that the architects of apartheid justified this horrific system with passages from the Bible whereas the Churches and many religious groups were unanimous in declaring this system ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let us have order please.  Let us, order, order please.

MS SEROKE: ... whereas the Churches and the religious groups were unanimous in declaring it a heresy.  Would you just briefly tell us the role of the Churches, particularly, your Church, the role that they played in dismantling this
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
2 E M THEMA
system and the work that they did to give strength to the young people during the 1976 unrests.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

MS SEROKE: Yasmin Sooka has already clarified the point I wanted to make.  I would like to suggest to Mamma that because Mamma, you are still in pain, do you ever give yourself a chance to sit down and think about this and think about what you need, because it is clear that you are still in pain.  You don't even know what to do, you don't know even what to request. I am going to suggest that you can sit down and discuss with the family and think about it, you can think about what you want, then you can come back to the Commission.

NTOMBENKULU BUSANG: The other thing that is causing me pain, because he was my eldest son, he was a commander of the ANC, he was a commander of the MK.  He was having the medals, he had certificates, he had his own certificates, he had medals. (PAUSE).
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
15 MRS N BUSANG

MS SEROKE: Comfort yourself, Mamma, we know that it is very painful.  That is why I am saying that after you have collected yourself and you have discussed the issue with your family, you can come back to us as a family, with something, with your recommendations, with your requests.  We know that it is actually irritating the wounds.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mamma, we appreciate that you came to this Commission.  As you are still saying that your son had the highest position, he had certificates and medals.  That one day is going to comfort you, when you think that in the short time you had with him, he actually (indistinct) and made things.  Today we have commissions which are looking at such things, because of people like him. You must thank God, you must thank God because he didn't waste his time for nothing, by trying to intoxicate himself, actually he did something.  He is one of our heroes, when the day we are (indistinct), we thank them, that they have fought a battle.  The pain that you still have, we trust that as time goes on you are going to get some comfort in your heart.  After all this some of us are also helping to comfort you all and some of the reverends or church ministers who will follow Mamma to help you, to help you and talk to you, until you go back home. But you must also contact us, because we have a lot of families like yours, which is looking forward in bringing people to bury them here in South Africa, and give you the opportunities to do things that you would like to do.  Thank you very much, Mamma.  Thank you.

NTOMBENKULU BUSANG: Thank you.
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHRISTINA BUTHULEZI: In fact I have always been asking myself one question.  What kind of people should be compensated, those who are getting compensation and why others are not compensated.  This is the question that I always ask myself everyday.  Even when I ask people who understand more about this they cannot even tell me how they got the money.  When I ask them how they got the money they could not explain anything to me.  I would be happy to know if the Commission can assist me to know how to get the money.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to thank you very much.  The Commission has a Committee called Reparations Committee.  It is called Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee.  This Committee is busy at the moment trying to investigate as to how people can be helped to their satisfaction from 1960 to 1963.  Your suffering is different from any other people sufferings and I believe that you and your organisation, you will try and contact us with information as to how we can try and help people like you.  We will try and ask you if we ever have meetings so that you can come and help us.
 What I would like to thank you for is the evidence that SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
11 C BUTHULEZI
you have placed before the Commission and I am so happy because you are one of those people who survived the 1976 riot.  We are so glad because you managed to survive to fight, you managed to get everything.  You have got a child and continue with your life.  I think a person like you is seen as a freedom fighter.  You have been able to go through all these burnings and we believe that the spirit that you have will help other people to know that there is life even after such great sufferings.  We would like to thank you lady.  
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

CHAIRPERSON: Could I please ask for some order in the house.  Could I also please ask and point out to people, we are here to look after and listen to the tales of the witnesses.  We do not want any flashes from the audience, thanks very much.  This is not a spectacle.  Could you please keep your cameras to yourselves, thank you very much, and keep quiet, please.  Deborah, if you could please stand to take the oath.

MS DEBORAH: (Duly sworn, states).  (FULL NAMES NOT STATED FOR RECORD).

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much.  Can you hear all right on the ear-phones? I will ask Yasmin Sooka please to introduce and lead your evidence.  Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Deborah, thank you for agreeing to give us your story.  Before you start, would you give us a little brief history about yourself, please.

MS DEBORAH: I was born in Krugersdorp, Mansiville Township, 45 years ago.  I schooled in Krugersdorp.  Throughout my primary education and high school, I schooled in Natal, Marianhill and Inanda Seminary.  Thereafter I enrolled as radiographer at Baraghwanath. I qualified as a radiographer and worked at De Crusive(?) General Hospital.  Through various harassment by management generally I left and went back to school and enrolled at the University of Zululand.   In 1972, following the Tirole uprisings at the universities generally, I was expelled from university.  I was a member of the South African Students Organisation, a very active member. I was also a member of the Youth of the YWCA.  In 1971 I had been chosen to represent the Youth of the YWCA in Ghana, in Accra.
 After returning, I think that was partly some of the brush that I had with the system, especially after I had met a number of people in exile.  But all said and done ...

YASMINE SOOKA: Deborah, just one moment. Are you comfortable the way that you are sitting?

MS DEBORAH: I think so.

YASMINE SOOKA: Can we adjust the head-phones on your ...

MS DEBORAH: Yes, yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: I think you could, if you feel uncomfortable with it on the top, you can let it come through the bottom.

MS DEBORAH: Oh, yes, this is more comfortable, yes, that is more comfortable.

YASMINE SOOKA: Carry on, please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

YASMINE SOOKA: Take your time if you ...
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dube, we would like to thank you for your evidence and also your determination.  We know that you do have ambitions and we also appreciate that we see you as a
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
10 J DUBE
hero.  We would like to ask you to go back to your place.  Thank you.  
 I will ask the audience to remain seated and ask all the witnesses, I will ask first the witnesses to go to the room where they will have lunch and somebody to lead the dignitaries as well.  I would just also like to draw your attention to the photos along the wall.  That is some of the things that people are talking about here.  You can actually see them.  We will be back here exactly at two o' clock.  We will be back at two o' clock.

YASMINE SOOKA: They must leave these things here.

CHAIRPERSON: Also can I ask you to leave the earphones behind.
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to welcome in a special way Mr Valli Moosa and the head of the Jewish Board of Deputies. Please, if they can both stand and we give them a warm welcome.
(APPLAUSE)
 Thank you very much.  I will ask Mr Dyasop - we welcome you, Sir.  I will ask Commissioner Yasmin Sooka to assist you in giving your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like you, Sir ...

L DYASON: Just repeat what you said?

CHAIRPERSON: I would like you to stand so that I can assist you in taking the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a confusion here. The brief is talking in Sotho, he is speaking in Zulu.

L DYASON: No, I understand Sotho, but I do not hear you.

UNKNOWN: (Duly sworn, states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Dyasop, are you comfortable where you are sitting?  You seem ...

L DYASON: Yes, I am comfortable.

YASMINE SOOKA: Your story is quite a difficult one, because you have been imprisoned at different times by the South African Police and you were then kept at Quattro. I have given us quite a lengthy statement. I would like you to tell us very, very briefly a little bit about yourself, how you came to be SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 L DYASOP
imprisoned in South Africa and then your subsequent arrest and your confinement at Quattro, please. If you will begin to tell us your story.

UNKNOWN: I think firstly I must say that I was not arrested here in South Africa, first of all. I was arrested in Quattro.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you, before you begin that, could you tell us a little bit about your personal details, please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

THOMAS MANTHATA: I think, subject to correction, that what your primary need is, is time to cool off, you know the time to have people around you of your own choice, that you have confidence in, to talk freely and clearly about this whole matter.  Hoping that perhaps they can guide you and see a way forward, but as our fellow Commissioners have pointed out, you are still at liberty to come back to the
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Commission.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Dyasop.  We thank you very much for having come forward to share about your experiences outside this country and partly inside the country. As we have been sitting here over the past three days, we have heard people sharing about human rights violations in this country.  One of the things we have said to them is that it becomes pathetic if people who have suffered, also in a different capacity, perpetrate human rights violations.  People have been saying we should all sing a song which is called "Never Again", and having shared with us what you are saying, we hope that is going to be the first step of your healing.  We have understood you, we have heard you, but regarding the substance of the matter, the first step which we will take is to refer your file to the investigation department.  We have put down all the new names, all the details have been given. They will investigate the matter further.
 You have mentioned your mental pain and anguish about your friend whom you allege was killed when you came back to this country, for reasons which you link to what happened to you outside.  Regarding that matter, as Yasmin Sooka has asked you, we will ask that a separate statement be taken.  That matter will be referred to the investigation unit and after this, our briefer will talk to you, just to make sure that you don't leave the Commission with unresolved things.  We thank you very much for approaching us.
(APPLAUSE).

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask that we break for tea.  I will ask some people to assist maybe, to assist their witnesses and show them where they can have tea and our dignitaries will
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come back here, after 15 minutes, half past eleven we will resume again  Thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
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Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  You were 12 when you were exposed to something which is often difficult to understand or to comprehend at a cognitive level.  Having said that, I want to emphasise one thing that trauma is a complex thing in the sense that many young people who were exposed to atrocities, they say you tend to have different questions at different stages of your growth, but what is important for you is to be able to live with that.  You should be aware of yourself if you are angry be able to deal with it, if you are in pain have access to resources to deal with it.
 You mentioned also critical questions around reparations.  It will make you feel better if I say you have left the people of Soweto with a challenge because although we have a Reparations Committee, we are not working on a reparations policy in isolation.  Our strategy is to go back to each every community as we have had the hearings here in Soweto, we will be inviting all of you and the residents of 
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Soweto to work out different levels of reparations.  Some people will be looking at the monuments, as you have said,  some are looking at personal reparations, some are looking at family reparations.  So you will definitely have a say at that level as well.  Once more I want to thank you very much on behalf of the Commission for your courage and just pray and hope that may you more and more be conscious of the role that your father played in the liberation of this country.  Thank you.

JANET GOLDBLATT: Thank you very much.
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Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Gqabi, I will address myself to you, by saying you have clearly indicated that what happened to your family have left you with scars. One of the needs that you
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have indicated is that you feel you, your children and yourself need psychological care of some kind.  I must say that since we have been sitting with the Commission, we are left with feelings of helplessness in the hands of so many women like yourself, who are left with permanent scars.  Even if you go for psychological care, healing is a complex process. We anticipate that you will go backwards and forwards.  There will be times when you find it difficult to cope with the realities of this country.  But we just hope that with time you will be able to live with the healing.
 As Commissioner Yasmin Sooka has indicated, we have a Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee, which is looking at what needs to be done, in terms of reparation.  We are still in the process of formulating that.  People like yourself will be asked to assist the Government in meeting the needs of families which have been left with permanent scars like yourself.
 The Committee looked at reparations because the people who formulated the legislation realised that no kind of compensation can really buy the quality of life or the life of the heroes who we have lost because of their past arrangements in our country and maybe even in other countries outside ourselves.
 Also, we understand your pain, Mr Govender, as a person who I would say Mr Gqabi died in your hands.  In the process of searching for the truth you also will have to look for yourself in terms of making sure that there is no further damage emotionally.  This case is one of those which will go back to the investigating unit to establish more facts and who will be in touch with the two of you.   
 I thank you very much.
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NOMAZOTSHWA GQABI: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: The briefers will tell you, will give you the list of names of people who will assist with psychological care.  As you leave here you will be meeting with the briefers.  They will give you those details.  Thank you very much.
APPLAUSE
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CHAIRPERSON: Maybe can we just stand for five minutes before we ask the witness who is the first one in this hall, Mr Isaacs, Henry Isaacs. He will be the next one.  If we can all just stand and stretch our legs while Mr Isaacs is coming forward to take the stand.
RECORDING SWITCHED OFF - ON RESUMPTION

HENRY ISAACS: (Duly sworn, states).

MR LEWIN: ... to tell the story which covers a long period or certainly covers the whole period of the Commission, from the Sixties through to quite recently, and also inside and outside of the country.  If you could tell your story us, please.  Thanks.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to ask Mr Lollan to take the stand, please, Mr Arthur Lollan.  Can you please stand, Sir, to take the oath.

ARTHUR LOLLAN: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming before the Commission.  Mr Lollan, thank you for making the statement and appearing before the Commission. I will ask one of the Commissioners to lead you, that is Glenda Wildschut.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Before I address myself to you, Mr Lollan, may I just say to you Madam Chair, that we will be hearing from somebody who could be regarded as a veteran in our struggle for freedom and democracy in this country.  Mr Lollan will be talking to us about himself but mainly about his brother, Stanley Lollan and also about other family members who have been working together for freedom in this country.
 Mr Lollan, thank you very much for coming.  Welcome to this hearing of the Truth and Reconciliciation Commission.
 We have spoken a little bit before you have come to present yourself before us, and you have thought about what you are going to say.  So I will try and allow you to tell us your story and by way of introduction, would you tell us a little bit about yourself and about your family and your brother, and then to go into the story of which your 
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statement you have made to the Commission.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mabalane, we thank you for your testimony and also congratulate you in the sense that you have had an opportunity of seeing the dawn of what your son and many others died for.  We hope the reparations policy plan will be announced during your lifetime as well.  We thank you SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
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very much.
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Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Magubane stand please so that I can administer the oath.

PETER MAGUBANE: (sworn states)

YASMINE SOOKA: As is customary we have assigned a Committee member to assist you with the leading of your evidence and Mr Hugh Lewin will do that now.  Thank you.

MR LEWIN: Thank you Madam Chair.  Peter it's a great privilege for me and pleasure to be working together again after a considerable number of years, as a result of which I know that you are certainly not someone who like talking.  You talk through your camera as we very eloquently have seen in the photographs, which over the last two and a half decades have chronicled the history of our country.  You and your work have become particularly identified with 1976 and June the 16th. I think what we would like to hear this afternoon from you is the account of you as a photographer and as a resident of Soweto at the time in going through those horrendous events.  If you could just take us through that in the context of your own experience.  Thanks very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

PETER MAGUBANE: Well June the 16th was not effectively covered by all newspapers.  There were very few newspapers that covered June 16 and the subsequent days after that.  You could have counted on the Rand Daily Mail, ...(indistinct), and the foreign media outside.  Most of our pictures were sent outside, were syndicated to newspapers around the world.  This is why the world knows Soweto so well because we were able to send pictures out, when in fact the police insisted that material should not be sent outside.  Sometimes there were restrictions about certain pictures being used.  You were told you cannot use that picture, but if all the newspapers in the country did their work according to newspaper work every one in this country, even in the remotest areas of this country, around the world would have known about the Soweto uprising.  But because they were part of apartheid they did not do so.  The Rand Daily Mail had the history of exposing the social issues affecting this country.  The world then had the same, they were doing the same thing, but the other newspapers had their own agenda.  June 16 opened the way for many young Black photographers, people who were working as messengers, tea boys, dark room technicians before they came into the
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township, but those that did not fear, just came in.  
 Now it is very pathetic in any civilised country you get shot at when you take the Minister of Justice to court you lose your case and you are made to pay R20 000 for court costs.  I get shot, I take the Minister of Justice, Jimmy Kruger to court and the police, I lose my case and I am asked to pay R20 000 and I was given nine months to pay the amount.  Fortunately with the help of my children I was able to pay that R20 000 and I do appeal to the Commission that I think I do need my R20 000 back.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Magubane one last question.  You have taken what, and in fact the example of that is on our walls, we are very grateful you've agreed that we could use them, but what do you think could possibly be a creative use of your photographs in the future?

PETER MAGUBANE: Well I've been thinking as well, thinking in terms of a history book, thinking in terms of getting historians, sit down with historians and write about June 16 so that the children who were not born and those who were at the tender age should know our history for we have never had our history told by us, let us tell our own history.  Let us have this history in our schools.  Let us educate those White children who are growing up with our children.  Let us educate our children who are growing up with White children, that even if there was this uprising in 1976 let us remain brothers and sisters.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very, very much for the evidence that you have given us.  Thank you.

PETER MAGUBANE: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: The request you are making is humble enough given your family circumstances and also the fact that your child could be an asset to the family.  We will certainly take this into consideration when we write up a report and
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people's requests.  We thank you very much for coming forward.
 I just want to thank all of you who have persevered till this late hour, half past six.  We thank you very much.  To us it is an indication that many people are aware that the reason why we are bringing these hearings closer to the communities is to challenge people to realise that the survivors and the victims will not heal on their own.  They need a lot of support.  So by staying, listening to them in such a cold hall till the end is an communication to them.  You are communicating your availability, you are communicating your presence.  When we started here on Sunday the Priest who was here, I should think it is Reverend Mabuso, he said the Church should open its doors for facilitating the healing and I would like to go beyond that and say that may the community of Soweto, all the structures, women's organisations, the civics, may they really open their doors too and realise that what the Commission is doing is a beginning of a much more complex task that is the healing of those who were deeply hurt and injured by the past practices.
 I also want to just thank our witnesses because what they have said so far, it clearly indicates to us that this trying to recollect what happened in 1976 is much more complex than we all envisaged in the sense that they have all be struggling with a traumatic memory and in the process of doing that, each testimony is like a piece within a bigger puzzle.  It fits in, it closes the wounds in some instances, it closes the gaps in other peoples minds.  We could see how even the witnesses tried to support each other and said, where X could not remember, this is exactly what 
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happened.  I should think what the Commission has done is the beginning of ongoing work which, in this area, should continue, people assisting each other to make sense of what happened on that day.  
 We will continue tomorrow.  We will be here till Friday and we are challenging the people of Soweto to come forward, make the statements inbetween, but also to support the witnesses.  When they leave this hall they should go back to a receptive community which is prepared to hear their agonies.  Tomorrow we will start at nine o' clock and hopefully we will end much earlier.  We have fewer witnesses tomorrow.  Thank you very much.  
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