Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Unless that was explained in my absence, but during my time at the base no such suspension of arms was ever explained to us until I got to hear about that after the 28th of March coming from the case of Da Gama, being told by the African with other soldiers in prison at Wellington that: "Africans, people have voted and the armed struggle has been suspended".

CHAIRPERSON: Just to clear this up, am I right in my note that you only went to the Butterworth base after you had attacked the Bahai Church?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So up till them you had not been at the Butterworth base, you had been at home or Bizana?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS COLLETT: Now having been a soldier of APLA since 1991, what was your duty with regard to taking cognisance of information?  To be more specific, were you entitled to take cognisance of information not given by commanders?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question M'am?

MR LAX: Sorry I think that question should be repeated in a slightly different form and it might be better to rather ask: "What kind of information were you allowed to regard, what were your rights as a soldier" etc., because the way you put it is very leading, with respect.

MS COLLETT: I'll rephrase it.
	Were you entitled to take information from sources other than your commanders?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No, we were not permitted but that did not mean you may not tell the commander when for example you have seen white people who were perhaps planning to come and attack or you have seen something that may be dangerous to us, not that you may go around gathering information.

MS COLLETT: Did you hear about the armed struggle at all in the newspaper or on the radio, I mean the armed suspension?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Did that affect you in any fashion with regards to your duties as a soldier?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I heard generally that the armed struggle has been suspended and I remember that I asked one African as to: "Man, I heard the armed struggle has been suspended" and he said: "No, I do not know of any such thing" and before he can accept the truth thereof he must be told by the commander and not to be told by member of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] you must be told by your commander, you must not be told by members of the PAC that the armed struggle had ended, is that what you're saying?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: What I'm saying, that person I asked: "Africa, the armed struggle has been suspended", that's what I was saying.  And I asked him what is he saying and he answered and said: "yes African, I heard that", but it's clear like there's no such but the only person I can accept it from is the commander, not a member from the PAC.  Members of the PAC must go on with their politics, we don't indulge in politics.

MR LAX: But you see, that's just a fundamental problem with what you're saying.  The objects of the PAC were the objects of APLA precisely.  APLA was the formation of the PAC, the supreme body of the PAC which is your national meeting, met in UNITRA and decided to end the armed struggle.  You hear that as a member of the PAC and as a member of APLA and you then go against that policy because your commander didn't tell you that, I find that very strange to understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You said: the PAC can go on with their politics but it's not going to effect you.

MS GCABASHE: To be fair to the witness he was relating a conversation he had with one of his comrades and in the context of that he gave this explanation about APLA and the PAC politicing, that's how I understood him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accept that that was the position, that the PAC could go on with their politics, that you would only accept it if your commander told you?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I don't know Sir, as to whether you heard me what I said.  I said Sir: I heard that the armed struggle had been suspended, what then follows is I meet another African and I say: "Africa, have you heard that the armed struggle had been suspended and this person answers and says: he heard that the armed struggle had been suspended but he, that is myself ama Africa cannot follow what has been said by the PAC, that information for me must come from a soldier, that is my commander.  The PAC itself must go on with their politics.  For me to accept it it must come from a solder, his commander, not myself.  You put it as if I said it.  I am telling about something said by somebody else.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accept it as being the correct reflection of the position?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes Sir, you see with us, we are soldiers and as soldiers we only listen to what is said by a senior soldier.  Also a thing I was asking from that other African that I heard over the radio, the radio that we do not believe and the newspapers and the television because the government of the day used to spread propaganda using those instruments.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was this person?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It's another African called Skalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Skalo?  How old is he?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I think we are the same age if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why didn't you go and ask some more senior person or a person in the PAC, as to what the position was?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No, we were just conversing Sir, here in the township.  It ended there as we had just conversed, we never thought of going further with it.

MS GCABASHE: You didn't think this man was an authority on this point, you were just having a discussion as comrades?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, we were conversing just as comrades.

ADV SANDI: Ja but surely Mr Mbambo that must have been a very serious rumour?  It's not like coming across your friend in the street and he tells you that an accident has happened in the centre of the city in town, that had very serious implications about the political future of your organisation and your participation in those activities.
	What would have happened to you if you had gone to ask a more senior person in the PAC or even your commander for that matter, about this rumour?  You just ask him: "What is this rumour about"?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: As I've said, the time I was talking with that gentleman we were here in the township.  There was no commander in our immediate vicinity who I could ask perhaps about this.  Our conversation was not a serious one, I just saw something in the news and I was just asking generally: "M'Africa, have you heard such a thing"? and he answered in that fashion and it ended just there.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, so it wasn't very serious but some weeks later you were told to go and kill people, why did you not them say: "But what is this about the end of violence"?  Why didn't you then make enquiries?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: With this person with whom I was talking, we did not see it as a serious matter.  After that I did not move and go and kill people, what followed I was intrcuted to go and kill those people.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you ask your commander, before you went and killed people, precisely what the position was about the cessation of the violence?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: As I've said Sir from the beginning, in the army the democracy there is not the same as in the PAC, you don't ask everything that you'd like to know.  Your's as a soldier, as a lower person, is to execute the orders given immediately.

MR LAX: I've just got one small aspect I want to ask you.  You see you're telling us today that in relation to some of those things you didn't feel so good about doing them, even at the time you did them, correct?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I cannot understand the question.

MR LAX: How did you as a human being, because you're not just a soldier, you're a human being, how did you feel about having to go and kill people?