Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

KING MAYISHA: The first thing, I am not going to read any statement that I have made.  I am going to start by stating that, give thanks to the TRC Committee that is in front of us.  To thank everybody that is in this hall and say today my presence here is that I am prepared to give the truth on everything that I know, but before I can say that, I would like to say this to the Ndebeles and the Motsa tribes and everybody to the nation, yes.  On what we are going to say,
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this should not take us back to what we have experienced.  By telling the truth we should not go back and start fighting again.  I think everything that you are going to say here is what is going to try to build our nation again.  With all those words I say all these people staying in this area must be prepared to tell the truth and it should not be something that is going to take us back.  All that we want is progress.  
 The first thing I am going to say is about Imbokhoto.  Imbokhoto was an organisation that started in 1985.  It was started by other people that were working for the Government of the former KwaNdebele.  The President was Mr F S Khosane as we use to read in the newspapers.  I was one of those people who was working in that Government.  During that time, when Imbokhoto started, I was the Minister of Education, if I am not mistaken.  I was the Minister of Health and Welfare.  This started, this is not something that started within the Government service, but it started outside the Government service because some of us were within the Government itself.  We were not involved.  I remember when it started some of us understood it as a cultural organisation, but when Mr Piet Ndoli who was known as Mr Makwe discussed that over the radio stating that they have started an organisation that is going to deal with the people who are not working with them.  I remember going to our former Prime Minister, Mr F S Khosane to ask him about this.  Ask him what is it that they were going, what was that organisation that they were going to do.  Was it an organisation that was going to discipline the people that were not working with them, that were not co-operative.  He stated that it was Mr Ndoli's idea, not his.  Shortly, what 
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I can say was that we have frequented the Prime Minister's home enquiring about what Mr Ndoli was saying was true.  I still remember even Mr Skosane's family trying to discuss the matter with him.  In short what I can say about Imbokhoto is that it was an organisation that did not understand what politics was all about.  What I can say now in front of the nation and the Committee is that some of the people believe that I was part of this organisation.  I still maintain that I have never been part of that organisation.  In most of their meetings I was not involved.  I did not attend because I was differing.  In some of these meetings what they were saying, I would always tell them that, no, I will not be able to cope with what they are doing because the former KwaNdebele politicians believed that people would be coming from Mamelodi, Johannesburg and other towns, coming over to KwaNdebele to make some unrest.  That is why there were so many roadblocks and other things.  I use to tell them that there will not be other people coming from outside, but the people who are going to start this were your own children coming from within.  That is why it was said that I knew where this all started.  In short, what I can say about Imbokhoto is that it is one of those words that were used to, I have moved from the coming to independence.  
 Independence was the ideas brought in by the Afrikaners whose names I cannot recall anymore, but this was brought into KwaNdebele by them.  During that time the Cabinet thought that in order to have money to develop the KwaNdebele nation, the best thing was to take independence, but as time went by the thing that people were not consulted. It became clear that what was being said by the
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Government differs from what people are thinking.  What I can say before I can be asked some questions in front of the Commission is that in the first place I supported independence at first, but as time went by I managed to go to the Cabinet and convinced them that they have to consult with the community and get their views about it.  I say this because I was still very young within the Cabinet itself and during that time I had other people, I had supporters who would send me to the Government that I always reported and everything that I was reporting to the Cabinet, I would always get it from their supporters.  Therefore, that is how it went on.  It became clear that independence should be imposed to the people.  That is where it started.  That is where the unrest started.  
 People went to the Ngomyama, my late father, to enquire as to whether this independence was approved by the Ngomyama, but the Ngomyama.  They never appeared before the King to explain to him who gave them the permission to fight for this independence.  I will quote dates.  It was in 1986 when they were called and they did not want to appear before the King and to explain to the community that was gathered there.  There was another meeting where the Chief was supposed to come in person because in that meeting Klaas Madodo who was the Minister of Public Works was forced to come and the Minister of Justice who was, M M Mahlongo, who was also supposed to come to the meeting.  The community said, no, we want the Chief Minister in person and I remember after the date has been set for another meeting.  I was a link between the royal kraal and the Cabinet.  We persuaded the Chief Minister to come and talk to the community to tell them his feelings and he said, no, I am
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not going there.  The next moment more than 20 people were gathered at the kraal.  Police were hovering with their helicopters.  They were spraying people with teargas.  I remember after people left the place we picked up four dead bodies.  I think people submitted their statements to the TRC.  They will appear.  
 After that there was fighting in this KwaNdebele area and killings continued.  Until today people left their original places.  They went and stayed somewhere else until today.  I want to pass this issue by saying if there is any other way that the Commission would help bring peace and reconciliation between those people who call themselves Imbokhoto and the people who use to stay in KwaNdebele.  Let the Commission do so.  As the King I have tried to make every means possible to bring reconciliation between the people so that they can be one nation as they were before.  I want to pass this one and go to the next issue of Moutse.   The Government of the Republic of South Africa incorporated Moutse into KwaNdebele because they were a Ndebele region and they were supposed to get their independence, but the people of Moutse never accepted this move.  What I realised is that they did not want to be incorporated into KwaNdebele and there was no reason to force them, but the KwaNdebele Cabinet was at the forefront and they said, no, they have to be incorporated into KwaNdebele.  There were conflicts then between the people of KwaNdebele, but I do not have to say that it was a conflict between the people of KwaNdebele, but I want to say this was a conflict between the people of Moutse.  
 There were people working in Middelburg who could not pass to go to their respective homes because the people of
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Moutse were very disturbed by this issue of incorporation.  The Cabinet of the day, I know the person who was at the forefront.  He is Piet Ntoli.  Together with the other members of Parliament of those days they gathered people so that there can be a fight with the people of Moutse.  What I can say is that the relationship in the community of Moutse and the relationship between the community of Zinzar was never disturbed at all, but the Zinzar people tried to come together and talk this matter out to indicate to the people that they were not fighting the Moutse people at all.  They never managed to come when there was a fight.  I want to say the people of KwaNdebele were forced to go to the battlefield.  They did not want to do it, they were forced.  After seeing that Moutse people killed a few Ndebele people the Cabinet of the day, Toelie Skosane and them, they came to the King, who is my father, and there was this conflict and they saw bodies between themselves and the people they were fighting.  They came to ask for forgiveness.  They said fighting was uncalled for.  They said they will never involved themselves in fighting anymore, but we realised that they came to the King because of the bodies they saw.  Their King Moboko was accusing them also.  They said they will never ever engage in fighting.  I remember it was on the seventh of February 1986, yes 1986.  
 All these events troubled the youth of KwaNdebele and the community at large.  There was this thing called unrest in our area and the KwaNdebele people died like flys.  Until today there are people who we do not know where they are heading to.  People who were burnt into their houses and some of the people who were assaulted.  I think most of these people will appear before the Commission to give their MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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side of the story.  I hope they have submitted their statements.  There is a need that people of Moutse must understand that it was not the community of KwaNdebele that was fighting against them.  It was just a few elements in the Cabinet.  The police were involved in this whole issue and they did not help at all.  I remember they were told when Imbokhoto began, letters were written to Ministers, letters were written to police commanders, but they never gave any help.  They only stood and watched as people were killing each other.  
 Chairperson, that is what I wanted to put before this Commission this and maybe I can now proceed to the statement that I have submitted where I said that the police arrested me unlawfully.  In 1986, I do not remember the date very well, but it was in February.  They took me and put me into the cells for two nights and on the fifth of April, if I am not mistaken.  I must say they arrested me in February.  That was after they arrested Prince James.  Now we were going to his trial at Mdantsane.  While we were at the verandah at the court they picked me up to take me to the cells and after two days they released me.  In April, I cannot remember well, but it was on a Tuesday or on a Monday, the Parliament was supposed to sit and I was taken on Friday.  It was on a Wednesday. Prince James was arrested because there was going to be a sitting of the Parliament.  Can I continue with my statement that I have submitted to TRC?