Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, the next applicant is Michael Mofokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mofokeng do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation to tell the truth?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mofokeng, you have heard the first applicant, Mr Nkabinde, giving evidence before this Committee with regard to the two incidents?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you confirm what has been said by Mr Nkabinde in as far as your role in the two incidents?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes that is where I confirm his evidence, that is where I want to correct him, maybe he forgot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Oh, okay.  I understand that, but what I want generally do you confirm what has been said by him with the exception of the incidents where you are going to make corrections?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: The way I heard his evidence, yes I did hear his evidence, I confirm what he said.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you already indicated that there are certain parts of his evidence which you feel that he is not correct or he must have forgotten.  Is there anything you want to add, subtract or delete from his evidence with regard to your role in the two incidents?  Start with the first one at Parktown.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I will.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Continue.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: What I wanted to say to correct Nkosinathi Nkabinde is about the Jacobs incident.  When we arrived at that place of the incident, we did not meet three people.  At Jacobs house we met a girl called Heloise Jacobs inside the car.  We asked her the whereabouts of her father then she said her father's in the house.  We took this girl and took her inside the house.  Before we came next to the door, the father appeared then before he could try to close the door, comrade shot him.  When we entered the house we were on the steps and then Jacobs fell on the floor.  After he fell he asked us as to whether "Who sent you here?"  Comrade told him that "This is an APLA mission, if you survive you must tell the police that APLA was here."  That's what I wanted to correct or add to his evidence.  That the first person we met inside the yard is Heloise Jacobs.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay just on that point, sorry Mr Mbandazayo, when you say that Mr Jacobs asked who you were and someone responded by saying we are from APLA and if you survive you must tell the people, did anybody else of the victims, would any of the other victims have heard that being said to him?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Do you mean the Jacobs family or those who were with me?

CHAIRPERSON: The Jacobs family, I mean from the Jacobs family.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: The person who was in front of me was Heloise Jacobs.  I hope he - I believe he heard what was said.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Is there anything you want to add with regard to the late Mr Jacobs incident before we proceed to the second part?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No there's nothing I want to add further.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let's go to the Parkview incident, the second one.  Is there anything you want to correct or subtract or add to what has been said by the first applicant?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: At Mr Stanton's place I will just mention a few issues on that incident.  We arrived there, we held them hostage then Comrade ...(indistinct) addressed them.  There was a certain lady who was on the phone.  When we called them, he addressed them the same way as he did at Jacob's place by saying this is an APLA mission, if you survive you must tell the police that it's APLA.  Then he asked them as to whether they have guns then they said they are Christians, they don't hold guns in the place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No other thing you want to add or subtract with regard to the second incident?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(inaudible) within PAC or APLA?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I'm not a member but a supporter of PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the present or during January 1994?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: From when I was - before this incident, even now, I'm a supporter of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee if you were a supporter of the PAC how was it possible that you were involved with people who are alleged, that is Monde, if you confirm it, do you know that he is a trained APLA cadre?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I did.  Let me put it this way, I don't know Monde, I know the late Kopane.  That is the one who introduced me to comrade Monde.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What was his position within PAC or APLA or was he a member of APLA or PAC, Kopane?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I knew him as a PAC supporter as I am a supporter of PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, he introduced you to Monde, what did he say Monde is?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: He told me that he's an APLA soldier.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know the first applicant that is also an APLA cadre?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No sir, I did not know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know that also accused Thabang Tjitja was APLA or PAC member?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No I did not know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now going to my first question which you have not answered that, now what were you doing with them when you were involved in the accident in Smithfield?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: In the company I usually visit Kopane, there where Kopane and Monde used to discuss, they used to discuss about general politics then I was interested in those politics.  I wanted to be informed and again to receive military training.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now when you went to Smithfield is that anything to do with military training?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Can you repeat your question sir?

MR MBANDAZAYO: When you were involved in the accident in Smithfield, what had that to do with military training?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: When we encountered the accident there, we were going to Transkei because Monde said there is a base in Transkei where I would get training.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At the time, you have told the Committee that you were a supporter of PAC I take it that you were following the activities of PAC.  Did you know at that stage what PAC was doing during that time when you went to training?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I knew very little about PAC at that time, I did not have in depth knowledge about PAC but I knew a little bit about what it was against in South Africa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way, as you are South African, you knew at the time when you went, you were saying you were going to Transkei, that election will be help in April that year.  Did you know that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also that PAC will be participating in the election?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: When it comes to the participation of PAC in the joint elections I had a little bit of knowledge in January that PAC suspended the armed struggle on the 16th January that year but within PAC there was an unclear statement.  I remember Clarence Makwetu said people should go to vote.  Before he said that Sabelo Palma said 1994 would be the year of the great storm meaning that there those who wanted to take part in elections and there were those who were against elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't the year of the great storm earlier than 1994?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I don't remember well, I just remember a little bit that there was something that caused the division that there were those who wanted to take part in elections, there were those who were against elections.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson I can confirm it was 1993, the year of the great storm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I have no further evidence led with regard to this applicant, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr van den Berg do you have any questions to ask the witness?