Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-06

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ndabe, is it correct that the SDU procedure during patrols was that you would have shifts, day and night shifts?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MADASA: And is it correct therefore that people who were doing night shift were expected to go home?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute, doing night shift where?  We know that the patrols were conducted during the day and at night.  Are you suggesting that individuals who worked the night shift in their places of employment ...

MR MADASA: The SDU Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the SDU would patrol during the day?

MR MADASA: I am suggesting that the SDU members who were doing night patrol or night duty in the SDU activity, were expected, yes who patrolled.  By patrolling Mr Chairman, I include for example looking after Bulelwa's corpse through out the night, that was patrolling.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that but I wanted to make sure that I understand the question is whether - you are talking about a patrol that members of the SDU who would patrol during the day are allowed to rest in the evening and those who patrol during the night, are allowed to rest during the day, subject to the whistle blowing?
	Did you hear the question?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: I did not follow.

MR MADASA: The question is SDU members who did the day shift, were expected to rest at night and those who did night shift were expected to rest during the day?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: That is true.

MR MADASA: Subject to emergencies?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes.

MR MADASA: On that day when you responded to the whistle, you have told us that you looked after Bulelwa's body through out the night, is that so?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes, that is so.

MR MADASA: Were you therefore expected to rest afterwards during the day?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: Yes, I was expected to go and rest.

MR MADASA: Would members who had not done the night shift, be expected to rest as well?

BENNET MNYAKA NDABE: It was expected for them to be on duty.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MADASA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ndabe, you may return to your seat.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Mr Chairman, I call Themba Christopher Mtshali.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mtshali, what language are you going to speak?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I will speak Zulu.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.  How old are you?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I am 36 years old.

MR MADASA: How far did you go at school?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I went as far as standard 7.

MR MADASA: In December 1993, did you live at Muleleki?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MADASA: Which Block and Extension?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Block F, Extension 2.

MR MADASA: Were you working in December 1993?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, I was unemployed.

MR MADASA: The SDU - you were a patroller and an operator?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I was a patroller.

MR MADASA: In the killings of December 1993, which we are talking about here, tell us about the role that you played, if you did participate.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, I played a role.

MR MADASA: Tell us about what you did.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: In the morning we were sent by Comrade Commander Nxeba Ndondolo.

MR MADASA: Where were you when he sent you?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: We were at Bulelwa's corpse.

MR MADASA: Tell us how did it come about that you went to Bulelwa's body?  Start from there?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: On my arrival ...

MR MADASA: Why did you go to her body?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Let me just go back a little bit.  On the 6th at round about eight o'clock, we heard gun fire.  As we were surprised we heard a whistle being blown.
	I then left as a member of the Self Defence Unit, carried my stick and brought my blanket along, rushing to the scene where the whistle was being blown.
	On my arrival I found some comrades even though I did not see them all.  I went to the place where the whistle was being blown, that was Block F.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: On arrival I found some comrades and a corpse laying on the road, a female corpse.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: There was also comrade Buthelezi who said to me comrade, we don't want a person wearing a blanket here.  I did not object to that and when I went back, there were two of us comrades wearing blankets.

MR MADASA: Who were those whom you met?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: It was comrade Matabela.

MR MADASA: Yes.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I went back to my place and continued to sleep.

MR MADASA: Yes.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I slept and in the morning I woke up, went back to the place where neighbours were rushing to.   I found that the corpse that was laying there yesterday, was still there.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: The whole community had gathered there, discussing this issue.  I then heard that there is also another one who was shot at night in Block E.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I then went to Block E to see what damage had been caused there.

MR MADASA: Yes.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: On arrival there was a comrade who was burnt in the house.

MR MADASA: Who was that?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: He was sitting on a chair and that was comrade Blanko.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I then heard people saying he was killed by the Youth.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I went back to Block F to Bulelwa's corpse.  As I was still standing there, comrade Shongwe and Lefu came to me.

MR MADASA: Shongwe and who?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Comrade Shongwe and Lefu.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Lefu Mokoena?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MADASA: Yes.

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: And they said comrade Ndondolo instructed us to go and fetch another boy who is alleged to be involved.  There are questions that he wanted to pose to him.
	We then left.

MR MADASA: Where did you go?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: We went to Block D.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: On arrival we asked and we found his mother and his sister, that is Mavuso.  His mother said yes, he is here, he is asleep.  We indicated that we were sent by comrade Commander because he wanted to ask him questions.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: We then woke him up and he did.

MR MADASA: Did you go to where he was sleeping to wake him up yourselves?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: We went back to Bulelwa's corpse.  When we arrived there, it was indicated to the community that this is the person and it was indicated that we should take him to the shack, and this instruction came from comrade Commander.

MR MADASA: Is that the first shack?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Yes, that is the first one, the one that was nearer to Bulelwa's corpse.

MR MADASA: Yes?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I then went to the community and attended the meeting that was being held there.  Here I think I will stop.

MR MADASA: Did you go to the place where they were killed?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: No, I didn't sir.

MR MADASA: What was the community talking about near Bulelwa's body?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: The community was discussing crime and violence.

MR MADASA: How was the mood of the community members?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: The mood was tense.

MR MADASA: Can you estimate how many people were there?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: I can estimate them to be in excess of 100.

MR MADASA: Do you know from which area they came?

THEMBA CHRISTOPHER MTSHALI: Those that I knew, were from Block F, but certainly the people there were not only from Block F.