Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is what he was.  He was a, as far as I was concerned, he was an outcast and he still is.  He is a member, he is actually, Mr Chairman, he is an elected member of the National Party now.  He has jumped from the National Party to the HNP to the CP to the Afrikaner Volks Unie and from there he has gone back to the National Party.  So, I think that gives an indication of the integrity of the man.

UNKNOWN: He was the ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Excuse me.

UNKNOWN: ... Secretary of the Conservative Party from when to when?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure of the exact dates, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Try and be of assistance to us, please.  Was it during the period that you were a Member of Parliament?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, it was, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: And was he the Secretary of the Conservative Party whilst you were in the ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: President's Council.

UNKNOWN: ... in the President's Council?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not for all of the time, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Not all the time, but some of the time?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Possibly, yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure exactly when he ...

UNKNOWN: Now, ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, it was, definitely.

UNKNOWN: ... according to the statement, he had a low opinion of you and you, apparently, share that about him.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: The Committee is not interested in the rights and wrongs of that situation, Mr Derby-Lewis, but you yourself must also have made your views, if not generally known, at least the relationship between you, at best was, cold and correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Fragile.

UNKNOWN: Fragile and cold and correct, to use diplomatic terms?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is debatable, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Now, he was the General Secretary of a political party, is the next most important person in the party after the leader, is he not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not in the Conservative Party, no, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Well, is he the third most important person?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, he is responsible for party organisation.

UNKNOWN: Yes, well, let us see in the hierarchy.  There is the leader, there is the deputy-leader and then, presumably, the Treasurer or the Secretary between the two of them, they must be high up in the hierarchy.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is not correct, Mr Chairman.  I think Mr Bizos must familiarise himself about the CP.  The CP was, in fact, a very democratic party and the party was not controlled in a dictatorial manner similar to the National Party.  We learnt our lessons from them and that is not the structure that you are describing...

UNKNOWN: ... and I will read the portion out, Mr Derby-Lewis, and ask you.
"When the decision was made to bar my entourage from entering the Krugersdorp Centenary Hall, it was made because they were Black.  The Conservative Party had taken action against Blacks using the facilities of towns which the CP controls.  Blacks, because they are Black, that we are talking about.  Mr Derby-Lewis plays with words, hypocritically.  Having the right to place conditions on the use of the City Hall is one thing.  Nobody disputes that the City Council has the right to do so in the sense that it commands the decision-making machinery which can make such decision.  Were I a White, I and my entourage would not even have to receive City Council permission to be in the City Hall.  It is sheer naked racism which is applied against us.  I want to assure Mr Derby-Lewis that when we in KwaZulu could possibly be facing conditions on visits to this region, they will not be decided on with any regard whatsoever being paid to race.".
Now, what do you say about this allegation by Mr Buthulezi?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Mr Bizos has not even given us an indication of the date of that article, regardless of not giving us a copy.  Could he please tell me when that article appeared.

UNKNOWN: I think, with respect to myself, that I did say it was the 3rd of May 1989, but I will not take umbrage at it, but you have heard what it was, what was said, if this is what was said, what do you say about it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, if I missed the date and Mr Bizos said it, I apologise.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not hear it.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But as far as that report is concerned, Mr Chairman, it was not my decision to prevent Dr Buthulezi's entourage from taking over the hall mentioned in terms of that article.  As far as my memory serves me, and this is now going back something like eight years, Mr Chairman, as far as my memory serves me, it was the Town Council of Krugersdorp that took that decision and, also, once again relying on my memory, Mr Chairman, I believe that the decision was taken because the Council involved felt affronted by Dr Buthulezi that he believed that he could come to a council building in Krugersdorp and that the council, itself, would not be able to look after his security.  I think that was the basis for that report.  Now, Mr Chairman, there is a lot of stuff which Mr Bizos read out there.  Can you just please repeat the part that you want...

UNKNOWN: Well, you have dealt with the one allegation.  The other allegation I will summarise for you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Was that your Conservative Party prevented Black people from making use of council facilities.  Was that true or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, those were the laws at the time.  They were only acting in conformity with the laws.

UNKNOWN: In the towns in which the Conservative Party had a majority, Blacks could not use the library.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, in, to the best of my knowledge, in a lot of councils where the CP did not have even a representative, the same situation prevailed.  I do not know why Mr Bizos is singling out the Conservative Party for this.

UNKNOWN: No, I am talking about the Conservative Party that did not allow people to go into the town library.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  So did the National Party, so did other political parties.

UNKNOWN: I do not know whether that was so, but even if it was, let us just deal with the Conservative Party today.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, I thought you were setting out to show that Mr Derby-Lewis was a racialist?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are pointing the fact that it is the Conservative Party that was racialist.

UNKNOWN: Yes, well ...

CHAIRPERSON: Could you not just confine your ...

UNKNOWN: To ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... criticism to Mr Derby-Lewis.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I will do that, Mr Chairman.  This will go in as another exhibit.  It will be ...

CHAIRPERSON: EXHIBIT R13.

UNKNOWN: R13.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you changed the number of the letter from R11 to R12, because I have changed the number on your R11 to R12.

UNKNOWN: As it pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: To put it in proper context.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, the actual ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, sorry, Mr Chairman, before, I have just been handed a copy of R12.  May I just obtain the Committee's opinion on this.  I have been told that while I am under cross-examination, I am not allowed to consult with anybody regarding the matters on which I am being cross-examined.  Now, Mr Chairman, this document I did not draw up and I will need to consult somebody to find out the exact detail of the background of this letter.  Am I entitled to do that?

CHAIRPERSON: Which document are you talking about?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am talking about R12, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That was the document that was obtained from your wife's computer?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Well, now, I do not think you have denied that it came from your wife's computer, have you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: This does not come from my wife's computer, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.