Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS MOLOISANE: Was Maletsatsi still an ANC supporter when you issued this order that she should be eliminated?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: No, she was no longer a supporter.

MS MOLOISANE: When did she fall out with the ANC?  Do you know?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I think I said she was a supporter.  She never joined the ANC officially.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, we know, so what I want to know is when did she fall out with the ANC, do you have first hand information on that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: She fell out at the beginning of attendance of meetings in Kwamadala, because you would never gain entrance to Kwamadala if you were a member of the ANC.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, to whom did you issue this order?  To whom was this order issued that Maletsatsi should be eliminated?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I gave my two IC this order.  He is John Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you issue this order to Radebe?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not remember when, but it was in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: In what capacity did you issue that order?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I issued out this order as a commander, and John Radebe resided close to Maletsatsi.

CHAIRPERSON: And was this when Mr Radebe was a member of the Zone 12 unit which you commanded?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, it is during that period.

CHAIRPERSON: Where exactly was this order issued?  That is, a place.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: We were in Small Farm, close to Radebe's place.

CHAIRPERSON: With whom were you when this order was issued?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I was with John Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there anybody else other than you and your second in command?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you approximate again about the month in 1993 when this order was issued by you?  Would that be early 93, would that be late 93?  Come to our assistance.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I would be misleading you if I have to mention the month.  I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: But you remember that it was 93.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know Maletsatsi died?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Maletsatsi died in June 1993.  Does that assist you?  Can you now place the approximate month when you issued the order in relation to when Maletsatsi died?  She died in June '93.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not remember, but it was before June when I issued out the order.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not in a position to give us a better approximation other than saying it was before June?  You are the commander, you issued the order.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Thank you Chair, yes, I issued out an order and I issued out orders on a daily basis, and I was working with many people.  I do not remember when it was when I ordered Radebe to eliminate Maletsatsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, was your order a specific order?  Is it not so?  It was to Mr Radebe to eliminate Maletsatsi.  Is that not so?  We are speaking about a specific order.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it common practice for you as a commander to issue specific orders that involved a killing of women, particularly the ones that were once close to you, and once offered you a safe haven?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: These orders were not specific to, they were not directed to women.  I issued out daily order regarding Imidwembe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, how many orders related to women Imidwembe, that you remember yourself issuing?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: More than one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, prior to June '93, how many orders had you so issued which related to women Imidwembes?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Two orders.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is June '93?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now in a position to remember?  Are you saying this was in June 1993?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, it was in June 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Why did you regard Maletsatsi as an Imidwembe  simply because of her visit to Kwamadala?

MR LAX: We've asked you time and time again not to lead the witness.  Now ask him the question why, that's fine.  To provide him with the answer is not fine.  Do you understand?

MS MOLOISANE: Mr Lax it's because he has already said he would take, go to Kwamadala.

MR LAX: That doesn't mean that's the only reason why.  Ask him what the reason is.

MS MOLOISANE: Why did you regard Maletsatsi as an Imidwembe?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Because she had a lot of our information, and information that could have led to our deaths as well as those of our family members.

MR LAX: What are you reading there Mr Mhlongo?  What are you reading there?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I requested a piece of paper because I wanted to note some few things.

MR LAX: You're not noting anything.  You're reading from that piece of paper.  Please put it aside.  You're supposed to be giving testimony here.

MS MOLOISANE: I ask you again, why did you regard her as an Imidwembe?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Because she had a lot of our information and she was now in the camp of the killers.

CHAIRPERSON: What information did she have that would have been detrimental to you and members of your families?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I mentioned that I slept at her place and she used to see our arms.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when did you sleep at her place?  I know when you attended school together.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I slept at her place in '93.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall the month?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Could it have been in August '93?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: No.  No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it at the beginning of the year in '93?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, it was at the beginning of the year.

CHAIRPERSON: Why can't you approximate, when you are always asked to estimate the time and your first response is you can't remember?  You don't make an effort to even give a wide approximation.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Don't talk straight into it.  Keep a bit further back.  That's fine.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It's because I do not want to give something that is not true.  I want to tell you what was happening at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is why Ms Moloisane has asked you to  give evidence.  In order to be able to assist us.  You are not much of an assistance if you can't tell us the month nor the year in relation to what you are testifying to.  You are not much of any assistance to us.  You must bear that in mind as you give your testimony.  Proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: That is all Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, you may proceed to put questions to Mr Mhlongo.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

MS MOLOISANE: Excuse me Madam Chair, there is something that the witness has indicated that he would like to say.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you want to say Mr Mhlongo?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: At this moment I want to say whatever happened then, I am asking forgiveness on behalf of my unit.  The situation and the present, or the then situation in politics led us to doing such things.  Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not the one who is applying for amnesty.  The applicants have already expressed their remorse in this regard.  You are here to give evidence.  We expect you to be of assistance, and we hope you will be of assistance, particularly in contextualising your evidence in relation to time.  Thank you.  Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: To your knowledge, Mr Mhlongo, on what basis were you made a commander of your unit?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Because I received training from Umkhonto weSiswe.

MS THABETHE: You spoke about an incident, sorry when did you undergo through MK training?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: When I was in exile.

MS THABETHE: I mean when, like which year?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was in 1991.