Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-15

JUDGE WILSON: So you say you filled in, when, in December, was it, when you first filled in the forms?  November?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, it was in November, when I filled the application form.   I am now surprised as I am told that it is only this one that I am having in my hand that you received, and that the three pages where I indicated the names of the people and the actions that are committed, is not - they are not included today.

JUDGE WILSON: And that you handed to who, Mr Phule, you say?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I gave them to Mr Phule, he is the member of the TRC.

JUDGE WILSON: That was in November, was it?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, it was in November.  That is why I told my legal representative that I have submitted an original form and three additional pages.

JUDGE WILSON: So that is what you meant, now this makes far more sense when you said you filled in other application forms.  That was the three pages that you sent in November.  You weren't talking about these ones I have just shown you. It was in November, you say?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I wasn't referring to the one you are having now.

JUDGE WILSON: You are referring to three other pages, you say you handed in to the TRC representative in Bloemfontein, is that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And later you received back just this one page, which you later took to somebody and got it stamped and sworn to?  Have you got the page there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I went to Rocklands police station to be under the oath.

JUDGE WILSON: It is page 7 of the papers before you.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I went to the police station in Rocklands and the warrant-officer there went through the form and I told him that I have committed these acts, and I was requesting him to stamp the form.

JUDGE WILSON: What form did he go through if you just had one page?  Did you just have that one page or did you have the whole form?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I didn't have the top pages, I only had pages from this one I am showing you.

JUDGE WILSON: That is the front page, and you must have had the last page because he stamped it.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you have the whole application?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, the whole application was with me.

JUDGE WILSON: But not the three pages?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Is there anything else you wish to tell us?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Nothing, Sir, I wanted to clarify this issue.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The pages on which you wrote, the blank pages, that is how I understand you, on which you wrote certain things, are they there, just page through your application and tell us whether they are there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Can you please explain, Sir, which pages are you referring to?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I thought, I might have misunderstood you, but I thought you said that because the application form did not have enough space, you wrote certain things on blank pages, which were provided to you.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is correct. I don't see them here, they are not here. Those three pages, these are the blank pages, I took them from an exercise book.  I didn't have anything to write on, I decided to use them, and I gave them all to Mr Phule, together with this application form.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You say those pages are not here?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, they are not here.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When did you give them to Mr Phule?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was in November.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was it the same time when you gave him this application form?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: All right, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: I notice though, if you look at paragraph 9, you see paragraph 9?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: On which page?

JUDGE WILSON: Page 3.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You are asked what acts or omissions you committed and you have written murder.  Do you see that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: It is quite a lot of room there for you to have written other things as well.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, this is not enough. This is too little, because I had a lot of things to say.

JUDGE WILSON: You could have put some of them there.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would not be in a position to fit them all in.

JUDGE WILSON: Any questions?

MR WAGENAAR: Mr Chairman, if I may.  Mr Ngo, perhaps it is important for - Mr Motsamai, perhaps it is important for you to tell us what you actually stated, as you can remember, in those three pages, what did you refer to in those three pages?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Can I please be given an indication, is it now part of my evidence that I have to start with, what is happening?  Because I will be repeating the information or the actions I committed before the proceedings.

JUDGE WILSON: So far this has been in the nature of an explanation volunteered by the applicant, not evidence, because he hasn't been sworn in as yet as a witness.

MR WAGENAAR: Yes, Mr Chairman, I am just concerned that there are other documents floating around which we don't have before us and what I would have hoped to have heard from the witness now, if he didn't refuse to answer the question, was to tell you what I had on those three pages are exactly the as you have got on Annexure B, for example.

JUDGE WILSON: That's what I think he may have misunderstood and thought that you wanted him to go into the details of the various offences.

MR WAGENAAR: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: We don't want you to give evidence now and tell us details. We just want to know, you said there were many other offences that you were asking for amnesty for, and you filled them in on these other three pages. Now we don't want details of them, we don't want to know who the victims were, things of that nature, at this time.  You are just being asked what sort of other offences were you asking amnesty for.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Some of the acts that I am asking amnesty for are indicated on Annexure B.  I sent that form because my legal representative wanted to know the acts I committed.  They appear on the three pages I have mentioned earlier on, but in an elaborated way.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, may I suggest that we start with the evidence now.

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct) short adjournment now.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't know what stands in those papers which apparently are missing, and I don't know whether they will ever be found or not, but if you say so we will do so. If you say you want us to proceed and your client to start testifying, even before you see those documents and we see what stands in those documents, if you are not worried that the contents thereof may later embarrass you, and the nature of that evidence that you are going to lead, we are in your hands.  If you can tell us to do so.

JUDGE WILSON: I suggest that we should perhaps - I understand you have not consulted with your client on this aspect, that we should perhaps take a short adjournment, and I mean short, for you to ascertain from your client what was contained on those three pages, so you can then answer the question my Brother has asked you.

UNKNOWN: As the Chair pleases.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION