Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  The next witness I beg to call is Ms Antoinette Malaza.  If I could ask her to come forward.  Chairperson for the record Ms Malaza's statement is Exhibit D, pages one and two.

ANTOINETTE MALAZA: (sworn states)

MR BERGER: Ms Malaza, I'd like you to look at the document in front of you, Exhibit D and particularly pages one and 2.  Do you confirm that pages one and two of Exhibit D are your statement?

MS MALAZA: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR BERGER: And do you confirm that the contents of your statement are true and correct?

MR MALAZA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I'd like - you described in your statement why Joseph went up to Gaberone to fetch that vehicle that had broken down.  I'd like you to tell the Committee what sort of a person Joseph was.

MS MALAZA: He is my brother.  I stayed together with him at Mofulo, prior to his departure for Botswana.  He was a darling of the community and after matric, that was before he worked for Hertz Car Hire, he matriculated at Orlando High School and after that he worked for Hertz and he started purchasing vehicles for himself and he purchased five of them and he used to rent these vehicles out to people and one day there were these people who wanted to go to Botswana and they wanted to rent this vehicle, that was around 11th and the 10th. He gave them the vehicle and on the 12th of 1985, Joseph received a phone call from Gaberone from the very same people to whom he had rented the vehicle and he was informed the vehicle had been broken and was at the police station.  He then came to me, requesting me to accompany him in another car to Gaberone and he was going to fix the one broken in Gaberone and I was employed, I could not take leave from my employment and he was due to leave on the 13th and he was going to spend his time at Lindi and George's place at Gaberone.

MR BERGER: Can I stop you?  You say you were employed at the time?

MS MALAZA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Did you try and get leave to go up to Botswana with Joseph?

MS MALAZA: Yes, I did, but I did not have any more extra days for leave.

MR BERGER: So you told Joseph that he would have to go alone?

MS MALAZA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And then you say in your statement that it was arranged that he would spend the night at Lindi's house?

MS MALAZA: Yes, correct.

MR BERGER: And then it was the next day that you heard about the attack?

MS MALAZA: Yes, it started on the radio in the morning and I went to work and I received a phone call to the fact that I should come back home and upon arrival was informed that Joseph and Lindi and George had been killed.

MR BERGER: Then you say in paragraph 9 that Joseph was buried in South Africa?

MS MALAZA: That is correct, yes, after burying the one couple, we brought his corpse to South Africa for burial.

MR BERGER: Thank you.  I have no further question.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetser.

MR COETSER: I have no questions for the witness thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COETSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Just a few, thank you Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was Joseph older than you?

MS MALAZA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Would I be correct to say that in 1985 he was about 28 years old, is that correct?

MS MALAZA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now did you know anything about his political activities?

MS MALAZA: No.

MR VISSER: So you can't confirm either that he was or wasn't a member of the ANC or MK, you just don't know?

MS MALAZA: No, we don't know that.

MR VISSER: Who is Mrs M, for Mary, I'm not saying that that's her name, Malaza, is that your mother?

MS MALAZA: That's my name, my other name is Mami.

MR VISSER: Let me ask you this, did you give evidence before the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC?

MS MALAZA: No.

MR VISSER: Do you know whether someone of your family, by the name of Malaza, did give evidence before that Committee?

MR MALAZA: Which year was that?   I cannot recall.

MR VISSER: Unfortunately - oh, it's 1996, on the 30th of October, 1996.  Oh my attorney has just found the name.  It's at page 15, Chairperson.

MS MALAZA: That's Lindiwe's mother, Lindiwe Malaza, Lindiwe Pahle the mother.

MR VISSER: Mamoketi.  Yes, can you confirm that, is that Lindi's brother?

MS MALAZA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And is Lindi your cousin?

MS MALAZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR COETSER: No questions, thank you Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER

MR BERGER: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.  Just one question.

MR BERGER: Ms Malaza, you said in an answer to Mr Visser that you didn't know about Joseph's political activities, but in paragraph 8 of your statement, you say there that you can confirm that Joseph wasn't a member of the ANC or of MK.  Why do you say that in paragraph 8 and at the same time you say you don't know about his political activities?

MS MALAZA: I confirm that he was not a member, maybe I did not get the question quite well.  I confirm that he was not a member because when he left for Botswana, I did not have that knowledge about his affiliation to the ANC, save for my knowledge that he was going to pick up his vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a manner of speaking Mr Berger, that I don't know about that, it doesn't mean that it is possible.

MR BERGER: Yes indeed.  Prior to this trip when Joseph went to Gaberone, were there other occasions when Joseph would drive back and forth to Gaberone?

MS MALAZA: There was an instance where he was to take Lindi's mother to Gaberone, but that was not a common occurrence.

MR BERGER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

JUDGE MOTATA: Ms Malaza, how are you related to Lindiwe, because reading through the documentation I found that her maiden surname was Malaza?

MS MALAZA: That was my uncle's daughter.  We are cousins, first cousins.

JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Ms Malaza.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Malaza, Joseph was never, can you tell us whether he was ever approached or harassed by the South African Police in South Africa?

MS MALAZA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was never a target of the Security Police of South Africa?

MS MALAZA: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, there is a question that arises from My Learned Friend, Mr Berger's question.

CHAIRPERSON: In which regard is that?

MR VISSER: That is in regard to the evidence in cross-examination of the witness in regard to paragraph 8, which my Learned Friend now has got the witness to answer that she now confirms that he was a member of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is your problem with that?

MR VISSER: Well, Chairperson, that's - I wish to ask further questions about that now because she conceded to me that she didn't know whether he was a member of the ANC and I left the further examination as a result of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I will allow you the leeway to ask on that question, but bear in mind that those types of answers have often been a manner of speaking.  Carry on.

MR VISSER: Well, I just want to put to you that at page 26 of bundle 2 of the record, Mrs Malaza, whom you say was the mother of Lindi, gave evidence to say that she heard about the attack and she says at the bottom
"As to why they were killed, we don't know.  They were killed because they were members of the ANC."
Would you say that would apply to Joseph as well?

CHAIRPERSON: In which context was that question raised with them, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: I'm sorry Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: In which context was the question addressed to the mother?  Was it in respect of Lindiwe and her husband, or ...(intervention)