Special Hearings — Legal Hearings — 1997-10-27

PANEL: Chairperson I don't know whether we're referring to the same incident but I remember there was an incident when the magistrates in Durban had a function and they actually had it at the head office of the police in that particular point in time. I don't know perhaps it was a bit more lucrative to go there. Because they had all the facilities available there. And then I'm not sure whether there was a video or there was a lecture by security police but this came up in the Sunday Times. And I dealt with this specifically because those magistrates were then told you cannot handle any of these cases involving security matters. And that was, I think at the time it was Mr Coetzee, he was very furious about the whole situation. But that was an internal and local arrangement. That wasn't any directive from the state security council.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just follow up? You see when minister Vlok came before the commission one of the things that he said was that they were not really responsible for the kind of reports that filtered down from the meetings of the state security council and that this was usually handled at the level of bureaucrat. So they weren't actually responsible for the way in which certain words were used like "Eliminate" and "Wipe out." That sort of thing. And so it was I think that the insinuation was that the bureaucrats translated discussions into language which could possibly be interpreted in a variety of ways as of course it went down the ladder. And I would just like to canvas your opinion on that Mr Neidt.

MR NEIDT: Well it's very difficult for me to give an opinion on that but what I've read from the newspapers and what I've seen this whole question of what's it a telegram or something concerning elimination and that subsequently there was also an investigation in this regard. This was handled by the secretariat of the state security council. I wasn't a member of that. That was the security forces coming together and a chairperson - I don't know whether it was the commissioner of police or the director of national intelligence. I'm not quite sure. But these matters, that specific matter never came to the state security council when I was in it. It may have come there before that. But these matters were not dealt with there.

MR VALLY: I'm now on page 61. Just to confirm that posts at certain ranks were reserved exclusively for white people up to 1985, up to which level was this?

MR NEIDT: Well chairperson if I remember correctly I think it was definitely prosecutors' posts, magistrates' posts. I think there were some clerks already appointed. At page 63 you will find, no that's afterwards. I think the legal posts definitely (...indistinct)

MR VALLY: Right so from prosecutors upwards?

MR NEIDT: Ja.

MR VALLY: Up to 1985 by law only white people could hold those posts?

MR NEIDT: Ja as I explained to you that was a prescript from the public service commission and that was also dealt with in the Hoekstra commissions report. And as a result of that fact that the special courts, Bantu administration courts were abolished we took it up with the commission for administration and said there was a dire need also as a result of the Hoekstra report in view of the fact that we, there was a lack of prosecutors of colour.
 I must say at that time we already had a number of coloured prosecutors. I remember we gave them bursaries in the Western Cape. Prior to that occasion when we could appoint them. I don't have the exact details but I have a faint recollection before that we could. But black people most definitely we couldn't appoint up to that time because I was involved in this after the Hoekstra report we managed to get this.

MR VALLY: Okay we've got a interesting submission from Mr Rasafarti, part of which you quote in your submission. And Mr Rasafarti in his submission, I assume you have a copy of his submission.

MR NEIDT: Yes I have seen it.

MR VALLY: You've seen that. Yes that was written by (...indistinct)

MR NEIDT: We're working together (...indistinct)

MR VALLY: I have met him. Whereas examples of gratuitous discrimination such as black accused had to stand, white accused were allowed to sit and issues of that kind. Mr Rasafarti very quickly if you could just give us a few minor examples or major examples,

RUTH AMELIA RAS: A few examples?

MR VALLY: A few examples such gratuitous discrimination.

RUTH AMELIA RAS: Madam Chair that (...indistinct) is in the period around 1969 to 1971 when I served in what was then the only department of justice in South Africa. And well it was made very clear, I must say that I assumed duty there in 1969 as a court interpreter. Mainly because I had a passion to be involved in legal practice. Which I had cherished when I was even in high school. But then it was made clear when by the magistrates under whom I served as a court interpreter when they realised I was studying law through correspondence and they asked me why do I study law? What do I want to do with it? I said I wanted to be a magistrate and it was really made very clear to me there is no place for a black magistrate in this country which was then a one South Africa. But I said alright I will see what to do.
 And then there were, in fact I must say that I had also asked the law society of the Transvaal. I wrote to it and asking for assistance because I had no means of going to any university. And they recommended that I apply for a job at the magistrates office in Pietersburg and I got that one. So the period I'm deposing to is from 1969 until 1971 when I was in the department of justice. And then when I became partially qualified in law I was then transferred to the department which was then co-operation and development or Bantu administration. I'm not sure at that stage what it was called like. Mr Neidt had said here it changed names so often.

MR VALLY: Thanks I just have to move on. I'm under pressure here. Advocate Neidt are you aware of any times when the minister instructed or directed or requested or hinted at even any decision which was imminent from an attorney general which as a result the attorney general changed his mind? As was legally allowable?

MR NEIDT: Chairperson no I'm not aware of that. I know there were various discussions between the minister and the attorneys general. The attorney general often were called to the minister's office and they had discussions on various matters but I don't know of specific instructions. I thin if there were such instructions it would have been instruction from the minister to the attorney general concerned making a call or calling him in. But I was never present when he gave any such instructions. Except for the matters that was mentioned here this morning. The pass laws and those matters. I know there was a general discussion around that but I'm not aware of any specific instructions during my period of time.
 I must say that Mr Kobie Coetzee was very, very careful in dealing with the attorney generals. He was, although he had the power in terms of the act he always said he'll never interfere with the decisions of attorney general. Now that he said openly on various occasions where I was present. He was very sensitive about this matter. I must also say as far as the security legislation is concerned you'll see from the submission. I think when he took security legislation over later on there was a drastic cutting down on quite a number of matters. And he was also responsible for placing the moratorium on the death penalty and various other matters. He had a great sensitivity as far as these matters are concerned. That is how I experienced it.