Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS KOTZE: Excuse me?

MR DONAN: Did these people also commit torture, were they also torturers?

MS KOTZE: He never, as far as I can remember, as far as I can recall, he never said that to me.

MR DONAN: Well what was the purpose of giving you the names, they were people who did what?

MS KOTZE: He would tell me about cases, he would tell me the detail that he could remember and then maybe mention a name like you would tell a story, because I'd say to him, see if you can remember it better if you tell it to me like a story, and then he would mention somebody's name that was also involved in a case or whatever.

MR DONAN: And they were policemen?

MS KOTZE: Yes.

MR DONAN: And when was this that he gave you this information and these names, how long ago?

MS KOTZE: Between February this year and now I would say.

MR DONAN: Now insofar as the blocking is concerned perhaps you can help the Committee because although Mr Benzien, according to you, blocks out certain things that happened, he remembers very clearly certain things that didn't happen.  He says he did not, for example, push a stick up the anus of a particular person; he did not stand on the leg of someone whose leg had been broken.  Now to what extent can this Committee rely on that evidence?  In other words how reliable is his evidence that something did not happen?

MS KOTZE: I think his evidence to me, if I can call it evidence, was reliable.

MR DONAN: Do you see the problem that we are facing?

MS KOTZE: Ja I see the problem you are facing ...(intervention)

MR DONAN: If he has a, let me put it, like a jigsaw puzzle memory with pieces missing how can ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: It's very difficult for me to answer you on that because that's human beings for you.  Their behaviour is sometimes unpredictable.  I cannot explain that to you.  It's again this tunnel vision, this tunnel memory thing.

MR DONAN: Are you qualified though to tell this Committee that we should rely or we should not rely or how we should approach Mr Benzien's evidence that certain things did not happen?

MS KOTZE: I'd like to answer this in this sense that I think when he spoke to me as his therapist not thinking that he would be coming to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee, he gave me truthful answers.  I cannot commit myself to say how truthful his evidence here would be.  I can only comment on what he told me.

MR DONAN: Perhaps I am not making myself clear I don't want you to comment on the truth ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Could I perhaps intervene here.  I think what the Advocate wants to find out from you is this, supposing that there is something which Mr Benzien has blocked out, in other words that he doesn't remember that, can he then come here and state positively that something did not happen because it was totally blocked out or would his answer be I don't know whether it happened?   In other words can he positively state that a thing which he had blocked never actually happened?

MS KOTZE: You are summing it up very nicely, I hear what you say, it's very difficult to answer that, it can be that he blocked it out and it can be that it happened and that he didn't remember that it happened, but it's also possible that he didn't do it.  I don't think it's possible to take it any further than that.  It's very difficult to determine what the truth is.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think the problem goes a little bit beyond that.  I think the problem is how do you reconcile the ability not to remember certain things with the ability to remember not having done certain things?  In other words the person says he has forgotten about certain things, he had blocked them out of his mind, but when other things are put to him he says no that I remember very well it did not happen, I think that's what the position, the problem is.

MS KOTZE: I think ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He's able to remember that such and such a thing did not happen, but at the end of the same breath he's saying I am not able to remember that, I've lost my memory or part of it, I am not able to can say whether certain things did or did not happen.

MS KOTZE: I hear what your dilemma is and unfortunately I cannot give you an answer on that.  As I say it's difficult to establish what is the truth or what is not the truth in that case.

JUDGE WILSON: Does a blockout - are you aware that you have blocked out?  Take for example the incident you've just been asked about.  He questions someone, he committed one particularly beastly act and continued with the questioning, if he blocks that out when he thinks about it now does he say well, ooh there my mind's a blank or does he erase it completely so what he remembers is the questioning and he doesn't remember there was such an incident?  Do you understand what I am putting to you?

MS KOTZE: Yes I am saying I think it's - again I must refer to what I said in my report, that he remembers fragments of incidences but he cannot give you the whole detail.  I don't know if I answer your question if I say that.

JUDGE WILSON: No if he conscious of the fact that he can't give you the whole detail?  I am not ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: Yes he sits and he says I am sorry, you know I can't tell you exactly, I've only got certain memories.

JUDGE WILSON: That answers my question that he is conscious of the fact that there are blank patches.

MS KOTZE: Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Once an event is blocked out of his memory is that a permanent blocking out, or does the event come back to him?

MS KOTZE: I think if I, Mr Chairman, if I can answer your question in that way, I think as the post-traumatic stress disorders symptoms diminish I think the person's memory will probably also improve but there will be certain things that you just don't remember.  So some things will be permanently blocked out but some things you will remember a little bit more clearly again.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything that can be done to assist somebody who is suffering from that condition?

MS KOTZE: Well hypnosis is becoming very popular in bringing back repressed memories.

CHAIRPERSON: Administration of medicines, drugs?

MS KOTZE: Drugs do improve your memory, the anti-depressants do improve your memory by not per se, but as a result of the fact that they diminish the depression symptoms of which one is impaired memory and weak concentration.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

MR DONAN: Thank you.  Apart from blocking things out, would somebody suffering, particularly Mr Benzien, if he suffering from PSD, would he be inclined to reconstruct what he finds unpalatable, because some of the aspects that he denies, are the sordid ones, like pushing a stick up somebody's anus?  Would he be inclined to reconstruct that event into something more palatable to him and then thus forget what really happened and ... (intervention)

MRS KOTZE: In other words, would there be a tendency to make the memory a little bit more pleasant for yourself?

MR DONAN: Yes?

MRS KOTZE: I think that is a human tendency and I have to say that there is a possibility with all people to tend to do that thing.  You always have your point, your side of the story.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, that is a conscious effort made now to reconstruct rather than a subconscious process in the brain which brings the thing forward to him, it is a conscious effort on his mind, now to try and reconstruct, is that what you are saying?  That he purposely try to reconstruct?

MR DONAN: I am asking whether that is consistent with this disorder, not consciously but because of the disorder?