Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I did want their forgiveness sir.  For example, I did want forgiveness as I said for example Tusanang was there, his name was mentioned.  I called everybody so that they could hear what Tusanang was all about.

MR MAPOMA: Now let's come to the decision to kill.  You have said that you were not - you did not hear the order to kill?  And you also.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: And had you heard the order to kill, you would kill because it would be an order?  You said so.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: [inaudible] did not expect that they would be killed because they were young, those people, for them to be killed.  You understood that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now, in your understanding, this order to kill, would it give peace to the community?  Would it bring peace to the community?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already said sir, yes, the  members of the Youth League were quite young.  However, the incidents that they were involved in before the 7th, what they did and partook in were beyond their years.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying the acts they did were acts which - understand me correctly, I'm not suggesting that you are saying that, but are you saying, the fact that they were young meant nothing because of the actions they did?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is what I'm saying sir.

MR MAPOMA: But when you said, you did not think they would be killed because they were still young, you were quite aware already of the actions that they were doing still.  I mean how do you explain that one?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, the community of Moleleki Extension 2 had an idea of the acts that they were involved in and everything that happened at Moleleki it happened because of the same people over and over again.  I thought that - or I had thought that they would learn a lesson.

CHAIRPERSON: The deeds that you are referring to now are - what are those?  You say the community was  aware of their deeds.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: It is the deeds that I have already mentioned by people like Majosi Mbogane, Hlalugwasi, these are deeds prior to the incident from July.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] the killings of these persons, are you referring to their criminal activities?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I am mentioning the people that they killed.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] are the killings of persons in townships?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Sonti, the members of the ANC Youth League who are going to testify here are going to deny that they were gangsters as you have described them.  Do you still insist on that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I refute that sir.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  No further questions Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Yes, thank you Mr Chair. Mr Sonti, were the actions of the ANC Youth League in line with the policies of the ANC as an organisation?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No sir.

MR MADASA: [inaudible] SDU you were what could be referred to as a foot soldier, in other words you were not involved in the structure hierarchy of the SDU, you were a foot soldier?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

MR MADASA: Therefore you were not involved in communicating problems between the community and the ANC, that is Shell House?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

MR MADASA: You said at the Buthelezi meeting which was about the new SDU one of your members remained behind because he lived in Block F.  Who was that member, what is his name?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Albert Mloye

MR MADASA: Is he one of the Applicants?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No sir, he has not applied for amnesty.

MR MADASA: Do you know how the SDU central committee was
connected with the ANC Shell House?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I don't have clarity on that sir.

MR MADASA: You never attended meetings between the ANC, Shell House and the central committee of the SDU, is that correct?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No sir because I used to work at the time.

MR MADASA: When Bulelwa told you about the fact that a new SDU was being formed, was that before Buthelezi called that meeting?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Which meeting sir?

MR MADASA: The meeting called in order to form the new SDU.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I have already explained sir that Bulelwa went to the meeting at Block F as she was a resident there.  She heard about all this there.  About the new self defence unit that was being formed.

MR MADASA: [inaudible] which you talking about, is it the same meeting which Buthelezi called to form a new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

MR MADASA: After you'd heard of that as the old SDU, did you call a meeting to address that problem, that is the fact of the new SDU being formed?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already said sir, some of the people who have applied for amnesty who were present here from Block F came with this report.  There was a meeting, we were talking about this matter or discussing it.

MR MADASA: My question is that you, as SDU old, you've discussed your disapproval of the new SDU, I know that.  But my question is, afterwards, did you then attempt to call a meeting with the Buthelezi group to address that very issue of the new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.  The day that I was chased out of Block F sir.

MR MADASA: [inaudible] chased out [inaudible] about discussing the new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.  Can I just explain something quickly.  As I was told to leave Block F as 4 comrades, the one Mloi was left behind.  We asked Mr Mloi to announce for us that we would like to meet with the ANC Youth League.  The ANC Youth League also had their own meeting not far off from where we were.  This is the meeting that I was talking about with the lady.

MR MADASA: In response to a question by my learned friend here, you said there was no peace in the community because there was a conflict between you, SDU and the ANC Youth League, remember that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

MR MADASA: Was the conflict between you and the ANC Youth League the only cause of trouble in the community?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: There was peace in the community sir.  There was just one problem that we did not get along with the 1993 Youth League.

MR MADASA: Did the ANC Youth League cause trouble in the community besides fighting with you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir.

MR MADASA: No further questions Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Sonti, I'm referring you to your Application which starts on Page 34.  You said you were assisted in completing this application, did I understand you correctly?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Now Mr Sonti when completing this Application were you intending to apply for amnesty for the so-called Katlehong Massacre, in other words, the killing of the nine people in the veld?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Now why did you speak about two people killed with a knobkerrie, that's on Page 35, why did you only refer to two people and not nine people?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, it is because all the people that I mentioned, the nine people, it is the people that I knew only afterwards who they
were.  I did not know who they were.

MR SIBANYONI: But you knew that there were nine people and not two people, is that correct?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.