Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: So the vehicle was very close to us.  The people with me, their lives were in my hands, the situation was of such a nature that we had no other way but to act against these people.  I then fired the shot with my shotgun.  Immediately after that the people on the roof started to fire so with respect I believed that not just myself but the other people on the roof would have made the same conclusion that the shots came from the vehicle and that we were being shot at.  There was very short series of shots, in seconds, it's difficult to say.  I immediately said stop shooting.  Just after I said that someone reported to me that the left back door opened and that this person was trying to get underneath the car.  I was afraid that this person would throw a hand grenade on the roof.  I said to the person right opposite him to fire again and to shoot this person, the left back side of the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that this person was trying to get underneath the car.  What did he do?  How can you say that he tried to get underneath the car?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The people who were on the other side of him or right at the top of him said that he was trying to get underneath the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was he found later?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: In a bent down position.  If I can show you the photograph it seems as if he was wanting to get underneath the car.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was not busy shooting?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I cannot say.

CHAIRPERSON: You can say.  If he is trying to get underneath the car but you killed him.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: There's no way in which I can say that he shot or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think that you would be firing if he was trying to get underneath the car?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I believe or the way I saw it is that the reason why he was doing it was to get cover.

CHAIRPERSON: So he can shoot up?  Just think a bit, Mr de Ru, it is not easy if he was underneath the car, he cannot shoot people on top of the roof?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: But he could have thrown a hand grenade on the roof.

CHAIRPERSON: If he is lying underneath the car he can throw a hand grenade?  No Mr de Ru, it cannot be.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No, you have to see my point.  I received a report that the door opened and that this man was trying to get underneath the car.

CHAIRPERSON: There's ten policemen and you couldn't wait and you had to shoot him immediately?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is correct.  Yes we did shoot him.

CHAIRPERSON: But you wanted to arrest him to find out what was happening to get information from him, but you did not try and arrest him, did you?  There were ten of you on the roof, there were other policemen round in the area and one man and ten of you shot him?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MADASA: Yes continue?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: After I said that they must stop the shooting for the second time, I realised that they were shooting on the side of the shop, I enquired over the radio.  Sergeant Raademan said to me that they shot at a person who came around the side of the building with Fouche and after the explosion of the grenade, shot at us and they killed this person.  I asked two of the members on the roof to get down and to approach the vehicle to see if everything was safe but they did not want to climb down because of the danger.  I then asked Raademan to move towards the vehicle and to see if everything was safe.  We remained lying on the roof.  Fouche and Van der Merwe came around the corner.  I saw that Fouche was moving towards the right back side of the vehicle and he was moving in a crouched position.  I saw that he looked into the back right window of the vehicle.  I heard another shot being fired.  I saw that it was Fouche who was shooting and I gave him the instruction to stop.  We got down from the roof.  We secured the scene and I found that the two people in the vehicle were dead.  I also found that the person at the side of the shop was dead as well.  There was a fire weapon at the body of the person on the side of the shop, was a pistol, approximately two metres from the body and the person who sat at the back of the vehicle, also a weapon sticking out of the belt of his pants.  I contacted the service officer as well as Swanepoel who was the District Commander as well as the photographers, as well as the video unit.  During that period while we waited for them Constable Hammond and Raademan and Fouche asked me if they cannot go and get De Lange, to go and arrest her.  She was still waiting along the road at Taaibospruit.  They left.  Colonel Swanepoel, Captain Symington and the photographers arrived at the scene as well as the video unit.  Colonel Swanepoel took over the scene, photographs were taken and a video was also taken.

MR MADASA: Sorry, who called the video unit and Swanepoel?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Say again?

MR MADASA: Who called them to the scene?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I cannot remember, I said that they must be called, I do not remember who specifically called them.

CHAIRPERSON: But you said that they must be called?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I said that.  I cannot remember who specifically called them.  It could have been the radio room but it was under my instruction that it was done.

MR MALAN: Your evidence was, and that is how I wrote it down: "I contacted the service officer and Swanepoel and the video unit."  You cannot remember who you gave the instruction to?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I believe it would have been the radio room, that they would contact the people.

MR MALAN: Why did you ask for the photographers and the video unit?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: It is how it is done, that is how we do it.

MR MALAN: Is that standard practice?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes, I would say it is.

MR MALAN: At any crime investigation where there's problems you contact the photographers and the video unit?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes this matter was serious enough for me that I wanted them at the scene as well.  I was satisfied that they were coming.  You will not get a video unit for an ordinary crime or to take a video of it, for example in an ordinary robbery at a house you would not get the video unit.

MR MALAN: But why the video unit because there's not action.  This is after what happened, three people died, no one's still shooting at you, you got the weapons, why did you ask for the video unit?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I think it was just in terms of the thoroughness of the whole event, it was just to be thorough.

MR MALAN: So you wanted to cover yourself?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes, we wanted to complete this investigation as fully as possible.

MR MADASA: Sorry, did the arrest go as planned?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No.

MR MADASA: Why do you say that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I wanted to arrest these people.

MR MADASA: What went wrong?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The fact that shots were fired, that resulted in the fact that we thought we were being attacked and I would just like to mention that in the meantime it came to light that I believe Mr Steenkamp could help us more if that some of this tracking down unit applied for amnesty and I'm saying this with an open mind that if those people were not killed that morning we would have prevented various murders if they were caught and arrested and investigation could go the way or follow the way as any other investigation would and that this whole matter were given the chance to be investigated.  You will also find in this bundle that where Eikenhof was implicated for the first time by a document that was sent by the security branch.  I was reprimanded because I said that there's a suspicion that Eikenhof was involved in this to such an extent that I had to write a letter and apologise that they were not involved.