Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR SHEZI: Mr Chairman, from what I believe he said is that he - the AK was without bullets.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, that is right.

MR SHEZI: To the point that ...

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, you are quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to clarify that perhaps if you want to, with him precisely what they did?

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Radebe, the AK that was given to Shosha, the bullets, you took them out and they remained with you in the car, sorry can I finish, so at the time she left with it to show to the comrades as it were, it was empty?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, it did not have the magazine and the bullets, but the bullets were still inside the magazine.

MR SHEZI: But that all remained with you in the car?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: So if one of the members that went to the house might have said in his statement that the magazine and bullets were in the AK and that he emptied those, that would be far from the truth?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, that would not be the truth.

MR SHEZI: And if there  is a witness who might have been in the house at that time to say the AK was emptied in my presence, or the bullets and magazine were emptied in my presence, that would also be far from the truth?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That would not be the truth.

MR SHEZI: On the Bundle of documents, the Supplementary Bundle where there are statements of all the operatives on page 8, I wonder if you have that in front of you?  On page 8 is a statement by Mohai (indistinct) Seleka.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I think I mentioned that there was a time they came back to take the magazine, I think I mentioned that that they came back to fetch the magazine.  I just mentioned that they came to fetch the magazine, I did not mention that they came to fetch bullets and the magazine, the magazine had bullets.

MR SHEZI: Are you adding that now, because you did not say that earlier on?

MR HUGO: No Mr Chairman, with due respect he did say that.  Just after the comrades came back, they did come to fetch the magazine.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Shezi says is that you haven't said it earlier on, he said that you haven't said it when he, Mr Shezi, was asking him, that is the point.

MR HUGO: Oh.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Also when you were being cross-examined by Mr Ramawele you said you arrested these persons or rather you intended to arrest them or rather you made that decision purely on the basis that they had shown you the wrong house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, when they came back from the house that I said was up the hill, after Shosha came to tell me that they were playing games I said "yes, they must be arrested."

MR SHEZI: So in other words you are confirming that the decision to arrest them was purely on the basis that they were sending you on a wild goose chase as it were, if I could use that phrase?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: In our decision we suspected that  we do not know Charles' appearance, facial appearance, he might be among them, we did not even know if at all.

MR SHEZI: Among those which were in the house, was there any description that fitted Charles according to the report which was made to you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I did not get into the house.

MR SHEZI: This is why I have said according to the report that was made to you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We did not have a photo to compare.  We did not have a photo to compare and see how Charles looks like.

MR SHEZI: So on what basis did you have this suspicion that Charles might be among them, hence you suspected that they were playing games if you did not even have the foggiest idea of what he looked like?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We suspected that Charles was among them, arresting them would be a solution, we would arrest them and their fingerprints would be taken.  The fingerprints would tell who was who.   Because he was wanted by the police in Chesterville, they would be in a position to identify him, we did not know him.

MR SHEZI: Had they been asked about Charles?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: The reason to go up the hill was to go and find Charles.

MR SHEZI: All right, on the bundle of documents which I referred to earlier on, on page 14 is a statement by Xolela (indistinct) and Nompulela Shosha.  On page 16, I draw your attention specifically to page 16, the last paragraph, line 8, I will read it out to you, she says
"... I did not see any weapons but the handgrenades could have easily been concealed."
	Sorry, let me just start at the beginning of the paragraph.
"... I then left alone, leaving Const Seleka and Magagi behind.  I found our vehicle a distance away and made a report to the other members and Sgt Radebe, I informed them that they were at the wrong spot and I will show them the way.  On the way I informed them that the comrades in the shack was in possession of handgrenades and intending to attack Chesterville and Umbilo police stations."
	She goes on to say -
"... I did not see any weapons, but the handgrenades could have easily been concealed.  I also told them that Charles was with other comrades in the shack and that Const Seleka and Magagi was alone with them."
	Was this report made to you as Const Shosha is saying here, this is what she said she told you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not recall her telling me about a handgrenade, maybe she did report to me, but I do not recall, that is why that is not included in my statement.  I do not recall her telling me about that, she might have told me, I have forgotten.

MR SHEZI: She might have told you that there was Charles among them, the guy that you were looking for?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: No, she did not.

MR SHEZI: I will proceed on page 17, at the beginning of that paragraph.
"... I requested them to bring our vehicle closer to the shack where Const Seleka and Magagi was.  I proceeded to the shack and they followed me.  On our arrival at the shack, Sgt Radebe requested me to call Const Seleka and Magagi outside as he wanted to speak to them.  He told us that we must arrest the occupants of the house."
	Do you remember that episode?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I recall saying that we should arrest them, the kombi was nearby, there was no necessity to pull it closer.  The kombi was about 20 to 25 metres from the house and to get to the house, one would have to go up the stairs.

MR SHEZI: So you said "arrest them", for what?  I mean did you tell Shosha, Seleka and Magagi why should they arrest them, or what was the reason for that?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I did not give them any reason, I said "let us arrest them", that was after I have told Shosha that the best thing would be to arrest them, because we have been told before about the situation in this area and I said the policemen of this area will tell us whether Charles is among the people, because they had been also looking for him.  Surely the district police would know him, they always knew their victims.

MR SHEZI: If Mr Chairman could bear with me.    Thank you Mr Chairman.  Your group, Shosha, Seleka and Magagi, they had established a rapport with the occupants of the shack, hence they went back to collect the AK and later to collect the magazine, some good relationship had been established, a relationship of trust if one could use the word?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It is only Shosha who came out, Magagi and Seleka were left behind.  It was Shosha and one comrade who was inside the house, who came out and I think I mentioned that.

MR SHEZI: I am now saying at the time of the incident at the shack where the shooting took place, prior to the shooting, at some point was there a relationship established, a good relationship or a relationship of trust between that group and the operatives where they began to trust them because they had shown them an AK?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Shosha and a comrade came to me, came to us and I said "Shosha, you know that the firearms are hidden at the cemetery."