Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR RAMAWELE: According to your testimony you say that the weapons that were in the possession of the members, were the police weapons, there were no illegal weapons in the possession of the members?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: Now, if there was, if a situation arose where you had to follow information and infiltrate, you wouldn't have been able to do so because you didn't have you know, you didn't have illegal weapons which could have convinced the comrades that you are you know, some of your members, either UDF or the ANC members?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: We only had the AK and the askaris themselves, based on their background and their training, they could speak the language, that was the language which was used by ANC members in camps and they knew the descriptions of the camps, they knew certain members, their families, etc.

MR RAMAWELE: The police officers who went to Durban, did they all have their identity cards, police identity cards?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Did they carry their identity cards with them in their body, in their possession?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: How many kombis, how many Vlakplaas kombis were used by the members to go to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, all the kombis we had there and all which were allocated to group leaders, came down to Durban, and all motor cars and other vehicles which we had.

MR RAMAWELE: How many kombis were there?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I cannot remember.

MR RAMAWELE: Is it not something which was quite well known among the UDF activists and the ANC activists, that the police, the Security Police are fond of using the kombis?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I don't know Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: The informers never told you that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, there were many more taxi's which were used as kombis.

MR RAMAWELE: You arrived in Durban and when you arrived in Durban, the decision to go to Chesterville, you were not involved in that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I can't remember that.

MR RAMAWELE: What do you remember about when you arrived in Durban, what do you remember about something that you had to do about the flashpoints and the killing of the police officers, what do you remember which you had to do, because you cannot all the time have been sleeping?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman, I did not sleep all the time, one has to sleep at some or other stage.    The information which we obtained came from the Security Branch, I cannot remember exactly what that was.  I cannot remember, the deployment would have been based on their demand of the Security Police, they asked Headquarters to send the whole contingent from Vlakplaas, and from there, they would take the initiative.

MR RAMAWELE: What I am referring to is after your arrival in Durban, already there were other members who were there, after you had arrived in Durban, now you are there, it is a flashpoint, Security Police officers have been killed, what do you remember which you had to do about this incident, what do you remember which you had to do about the killing of the police officers or the giving of instructions to any of those people, to go anywhere, what do you remember after arriving in Durban, they are there, they are deployed, what do you remember?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: We were looking for ANC terrorists, we were busy with counter-insurgents.

MR RAMAWELE: Did you instruct any group to go anywhere and search for the killers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I could have, yes.

MR RAMAWELE: Did you instruct any group to go and infiltrate the local activists?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is possible, yes.

MR RAMAWELE: Does it mean that this could actually also include the Chesterville incident?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, probably yes, I cannot remember that however.  That request would have come from the Security Branch themselves, as they gather information and spread the information.

MR RAMAWELE: If you say the Security Branch, which one are you referring to?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The Security Branch at the C R Swart.

MR RAMAWELE: You see Vermeulen say that they actually got information from the army about the flashpoints?  Does it make sense to you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, no, I was listening to him and if I understood him correctly, that was after they went had gone to the police station, they got the information there, the army did not approach us at C R Swart.

MR RAMAWELE: Which police station are you talking about?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: C R Swart.

MR RAMAWELE: You are saying that they must have spoken to the Security Police at C R Swart?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, yes, those were the people who requested us and the instructions would have come from them.

MR RAMAWELE: But you are not able to say that as a fact, that indeed the Security Police at C R Swart told us about you know, which places are the flashpoints, you yourself, you cannot say that they said so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman, but they would have done that, we are not familiar with Durban and they would have had specific requests or objectives, things they wanted to achieve.

MR RAMAWELE: But as the Overall Commander of the operation, is it not that very strange that you are not able to say that the Security Police at C R Swart told us that the flashpoints are at  X, Y, Z?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I said that they could have done that, I can't remember that.  I accept that they did that.

MR RAMAWELE: You also are saying that you were satisfied that in fact the Radebe's group were acting in self-defence?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And after how long after the shooting did the Vlakplaas contingent go back to Pretoria?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I don't know, I don't think that we went back to Pretoria immediately.  I remained there a week longer, myself and some askaris.  Some of the others, and I have already said, as far as I can remember, I can vaguely remember that we deployed to the Pongola/Piet Retief/Vryheid/Paulpietersburg, etc.   I think it was about two or three days after this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Kock, these askaris and the members involved in the shooting incident, what was their situation?  Were those the people who left or did they remain behind with you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman, I have the idea that they also remained behind in Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ramawele.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.    The killers of the police officers, did you know their names?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, they could have provided us with the names, I am not sure.   I cannot remember whether they gave us the names.

MR RAMAWELE: But Mr de Kock, the whole contingent of Vlakplaas goes to Durban to look for the killers of the police officers and you are telling this hearing that you don't remember whether you had the names?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember back so far, it was possible that they had given us the names.  If they did not know exactly who had shot them, they could have given us the names of suspects.

MR RAMAWELE: Do you remember whether you had the, you know the probable place where you could find these killers, do you remember whether you had some lead where these people could be found who killed the police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: Now any of the members of Vlakplaas, did - when these people were deployed, were they looking for these people who killed the police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: Did they find them?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Not as far as I know.

MR RAMAWELE: After the incident where in some members, some activists were killed, at that stage the police killers were not yet found?