Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

MR MGIDLANA: He says in his testimony that the firing was coming from the house of one Mr Mposelwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on, something is crossed here on the microphones.    Is English still on channel 2?  Okay, let us - I asked you who was Mr Mposelwa?

MR MGIDLANA: Mposelwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was he?

MR MGIDLANA: Can you tell us who Mr Mposelwa was?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Mr Mposelwa was a PAC member, a senior member of the PAC in Port St Johns.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it from that house from which there was shooting towards you?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is that house from the school?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: There is just a fencing between the two buildings.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you show us now from the school building, let's say the school building is where you are, can you point out a position here in this room?  Can you do it?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: The school wall might start ...

CHAIRPERSON: Aikona, the school wall is where you are sitting, show us now where ...

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Okay, the school wall might be where I am sitting, and Mr Mposelwa's house might be there by the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Would the legal representatives agree with 15 metres?

MR MALUSI: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: We were at an edge and we crawled towards the edge which was dividing the two premises.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything more you want to say on this incident?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: When we left in the evening, policemen arrived, or rather the army from the Special Force.  It was, there would have been three of them, and they told us that we have to leave because the government Forces have been arranged to come and monitor the situation.  That is when we withdrew, at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MGIDLANA: During the whole incident, was anyone killed or injured, that is at the time when you were still engaged in the...

CHAIRPERSON: He said they had heard later that a soldier had been killed.

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, during the shooting, a soldier was shot.  We saw him being shot, because he had just told us that he was going to the PAC group and another man who was just walking passed, he was shot as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Who shot that soldier?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: He was shot by the PAC members.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been charged with this incident, or are charges pending in respect of this incident?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Are you referring to the shooting of the soldier?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that whole incident, any charges arising out of that incident?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No sir, no charges.

CHAIRPERSON: Any of your co-accused, do you know?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No sir, no policeman came to us.  The only thing that we saw the following day, were the casualties and the reports that there were Security Forces and that people were killed, and we did not know who might have died, but seeing that we realised that lives had been lost there, we decided to apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are not too sure whether you were the cause or any of your colleagues were the cause of those deaths?  You only know of one death, that is the soldier, and you know that he was killed from the firing from the PAC members?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else you want to tell us about that incident or have you done with that?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: There is nothing else Your Honour other than the fact that people died.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's proceed.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Tell us just, what were you using to shoot with?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I was carrying an AK47 rifle.

JUDGE POTGIETER: And the other one, Mr Mdlulwa?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I am not certain, but I was the only one who was carrying an AK47 rifle.  As to whether he was carrying an R4 or an R1, I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Guleni?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: It seems that he was carrying an Uzzi sub-machine gun.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you aim at any object when you were shooting?

CHAIRPERSON: Or any person?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: We were crawling towards the fence.  Because of the bushy terrain and you could not see your target clearly, but to suppress them for the purpose of our mission, we wanted them to see that we were shooting them, but sometimes I would just be shooting openly.

MR MGIDLANA: was your AK47 on manual or on automatic?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I kept on changing it because I did not have enough ammunition, because we did not know what was the situation, therefore I kept on alternating the positions, manual to automatic.  And one other thing that happened there, that didn't - we did not shoot at the house because there were children who were coming out of the house.  Because we noticed later that this is actually a residential house, and there were shooting, but from all over the house.  They were shooting from inside the house, we were going to throw in handgrenades, but because of the presence of the children, I stopped them.

MR MGIDLANA: You never saw any bullet from your firearm striking any person?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No, but I had aimed at somebody who had just arrived with a car.   Whether I struck him, whether he fell or not, I could not tell, because I just fired and they would just return the firing.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ... the next incident in which he is involved, or is that his ...

MR MGIDLANA: It is only this incident, Your Worship.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgxaji?

MR MGXAJI: Yes Judge, Judge so far the testimony profit by the applicant, doesn't seem to relate to ...

CHAIRPERSON: To your clients?

MR MGXAJI: To my clients, but I am not too sure whether His Lordship may allow me to just ask one question relating to Guleni.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it - relevant to which act, incident?

MR MGXAJI: Relevant to the Mapipa case.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, ask the question, let us see how ...

MR MGXAJI: Mr Matshaya, Mr Guleni is also the applicant before this Committee, in relation to the Mapipa murder case, right?  I want to find out if you know him, is he or was he a member of MK?

JUDGE POTGIETER: Don't touch this thing here, it is very sensitive on the headphones.  Switch it on again.

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I know Mr Guleni.  I met him in Port St Johns.   I knew him as the member of the SDU in Port St Johns.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you discount the possibility that he was a member of MK or is it that you just don't know?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: As far as I am concerned, as a member of SDU, I don't draw that much difference from the MK because the SDU's would get their training from the MK people, therefore I don't know who to answer this question.

CHAIRPERSON: To differentiate?  Now let's put it this way, can you say whether he was trained outside the country or not?  Can you say?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No, I don't think so.  I don't think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Mr Mgxaji?

MR MGXAJI: That is all, Judge, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGXAJI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malusi?

MR MALUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I don't have any questions for this applicant.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALUSI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: I don't suppose you have any re-examination, Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: No re-examination Chair, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana, I just want to ask you, in respect of this applicant, should we find that he was party of a group responsible for any crime at that incident, what would he be applying for, which offences?

MR MGIDLANA: Judge it seems to me that it would be an offence of public violence, secondly I am not so certain ...

CHAIRPERSON: But he was defending people, that is not public violence?