Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Ja - I am aware that you - you might not be an expert in the field, but you've  obviously got many years of experience.  You're are a Colonel, you've obviously come across quite a lot of incidents where hand-grenades were launched or even in your training, you must have come across these incendiary devices - all I want - just to give me an idea - not exactly, but just give me an idea of what the damage a hand-grenade  can cause.

MNR ODENDAL: Soos ek u reeds gese het dit kan persone dood, dit kan 'n gat in die grond ruk, dit kan skade aan muur aantrek as dit in 'n toe gebou gegooi word, kan dit baie skade aangerig word, byvoorbeeld die vensters kan almal breek.

INTERPRETER: As I have already told you, it can kill people.  It can make - cause a hole in the ground.  It can do a lot of damage, it can break windows.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes, so the windows will be shattered, that  pillar would be completely damaged.  There will be quite a deep hole in the floor here.

MNR ODENDAL: Nee ek sal nie se die pilaar sal heeltemal beskadig nie, maar die pilaar kan beskadig.

INTERPRETER: No, I wouldn't say the pillar will be damaged completely.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay but that's quite a big pillar.

MNR ODENDAL: Ja.

MS GOBODO: Now what were to happen if there were to be a very small pillar - about maybe just about this size?  What would happen to that pillar?

MNR ODENDAL: Dis - dis baie moeilik vir my om te se, dit - daar kan skade aan gewees het, maar ek - ek kan u regtig nie daar help nie, nee hoeveel skade nie.

INTERPRETER: It's  very difficult to say.  Damaged would have been caused, yes.  But I can't - I really can't help you.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: But from the movies I've seen in the American movies of what happened in Vietnam and so on.  When I saw a hand-grenade being launched - I saw massive things being launched and the pillar blown out of their - would that be an accurate description of a launch of a hand-grenade?

MNR ODENDAL: Nee dit - dis wat ek se dit hang van die omstandighede af, maar onthou in die movies act die mense ook baie moet u onthou.

INTERPRETER: No, as I have said, it depends on the circumstances.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay sure - okay but I am just trying to connect my experience with what you are saying.

MNR ODENDAL: Ja.

MS GOBODO: You were watching the video did you  not?

MNR ODENDAL: Dis - ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: At the place where the person who was doing the video - pointed out where the hand-grenade had landed, did you notice the damage that was caused in the area?

MNR ODENDAL: Daar was 'n gat as ek onthou.

INTERPRETER: There was a hole, if I can remember well.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes, but it was very close to a little white pillar that  was painted in white.  There was a pillar completely in tact, standing right next to that little hole  that you described.

MNR ODENDAL: Ja ek - ek kan nie se nie, maar al wat ek vir u kan se die handgranaat is gegooi.

INTERPRETER: No I can't say.  But all I can say is - that this hand-grenade was thrown.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay, all right, except that for the record we notice that the pillar was completely in tact where the hand-grenade had landed.   Thank you very much.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now, I notice that it is already 1 o'clock and maybe let us take the lunch hour adjournment now.  And we will return at 2 and we will carry on with Colonel Odendal.  We will adjourn until 2 o'clock.

ADV NTSEBEZA: We still have  witness, Colonel Odendal?  I just have to remind you that you are still under oath and questions are now going to be put to you by advocate Potgieter.
CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL Still under oath

ADV NTSEBEZA: Advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you chairperson.
Mnr Odendal, was u in die omgang terwyl u nog diens verrig het as 'n polisiebeampte algemeen bekend as Dolf  Odendal?

INTERPRETER: Where you, while you were in service as a policeman, generally known as Dolf Odendal?

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek ja.

INTERPRETER: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou u se dat dis net uself en Luitenant Liebenberg soos u toe was en Sersant Bellingham wat teenwoordig was met die vergadering die aand voor die operasie, die 2de van die 3de '86.

INTERPRETER: You say that it was only you and Lieutenant Liebenberg and Sergeant Bellingham who were present at this meeting, the evening before this operation.  That was on the 2nd  of March 1986?

MNR ODENDAL: Dit kan moontlik wees dat daar een of twee meer persone was, maar dis wat ek kan onthou.

INTERPRETER: This is as far as I could remember, but I think that was what it was like.

ADV POTGIETER: As daar - as daar 'n ander senior beampte teenwoordig sou gewees het, sou u seker dit onthou het.

INTERPRETER: If there was another senior officer present, you would have remembered that?

MR ODENDAL: Yes, I would have remembered that.

ADV POTGIETER: Iemand soos Kaptein Kleyn?

INTERPRETER: Something like Captain Kleyn or something.

MNR ODENDAL: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Was daar - was daar inderdaad enige kwessie van die Moord en Roof-eenheid by daai vergadering genoem gewees, want dit lyk dit was uself en Liebenberg en Bellingham alleen wat daar was dan -  moontlik alleen.  Daar mag moontlik iemand anders wees, maar nie 'n offisier nie, so dit lyk asof Moord en Roof nie verteenwoordig was eintlik nie.

INTERPRETER: Was there any question that the Murder and Robbery Unit was involved in that matter?  Was it only you, Liebenberg and Bellingham - where those the only people present at the meeting?  Where there other people?  For example an officer?  It seems to me that Murder and Robbery was not presented there.

MNR ODENDAL: Sover ek my kan herinner was hulle nie daar verteenwoordig gewees nie.  Alhoewel as ek reg kan onthou, sal hulle ook die oggend daar gewees het, want dit was ons beplanning gedoen, waar hulle moet wees.

INTERPRETER: As far as I can remember they were not presented there.  All though if I remember correctly they would have been there the next morning, because this was how we had planned.

ADV POTGIETER: Was dit - was dit die beplanning en Liebenberg en Bellingham gedoen het dat ons - u gaan vir Moord en Roof ook intrek in die optrede?

INTERPRETER: Was that the planning that you and Liebenberg and Bellingham did that you were also going to involve Murder and Robbery in this action.

MNR ODENDAL: Dit is nie wat ek gedoen het nie, hulle het gese daar sal van Moord en Roof se lede ook wees.

INTERPRETER: This is not what I said.

ADV POTGIETER: Ek wonder wil u nie daardie mikrofoon miskien net so nader aan u trek nie, hy kan - hy kan beweeg - sit hom so nader aan u dan kan ons vir u duideliker hoor.

INTERPRETER: I wonder would you like to put the microphone nearer to you, it can move.  Then we can hear you better.

ADV POTGIETER: Baie dankie.

INTERPRETER: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar - maar u was in bevel van die optrede gewees.

INTERPRETER: But you were in charge of this whole operation?

MNR ODENDAL: Dit is korrek ja.

INTERPRETER: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: So - so wat het u beplan, het u beplan dat Moord en Roof moet ook inkom?

INTERPRETER: So, what did you plan?  Did you plan to involve Murder and Robbery?

MNR ODENDAL: Soos ek u reeds gese het, ek het nie Moord en Roof gekontak nie.  Hulle was in die beplanning ook, sal hulle ook 'n spesifiek - ons is ingedeel op strategetiese punte waar die persone moet staan en Moord en Roof was ook daar.

INTERPRETER: No, I did not contact Murder and Robbery.  In the planning we were divided up into strategic positions and it was noted where the people should take their positions.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar hoe kon hulle dan nou in die operasie gekom het as u as die bevelvoerder die persoon in beheer van die optrede nou nie hulle ingeroep het nie?

INTERPRETER: But how could they be involved in this operation, if you as the person in charge, did not involve them in the planning?