Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR VISSER: Alright, it doesn't matter.
	You in fact stated, Mr Radebe, that Ms Kubheka was handed over to the white officers near a highway.  Do you remember having stated that in your ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, stated where?  Not in the evidence here today, because my recollection was they handed some man over.

MR VISSER: That would be in his amnesty application, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry.

MR VISSER: Page 118, Chairperson, paragraph 48.
	Now Mr Radebe, in your amnesty application in volume 1, page 118, in paragraph 48, you said:
"We arranged to meet at a highway.  We then indeed then handed over the person to Hentie Botha."
The impression that you're creating is that it wasn't at Battery Beach, it wasn't at Winkelspruit, it was somewhere near a highway.  Now can you explain that to us, that we can understand what you're saying?

MR LAX: Sorry, I don't see what's different to his earlier evidence or here, maybe you're the one that's confused Mr Visser, because his evidence so far in the statement, has been that initially the first person they handed over was handed over at a highway.  That's exactly what he says here.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm trying to make the point that that first person was Bhila and it wasn't Kubheka.  That's the whole point of this cross-examination.

MR LAX: But he's never said it was Kubheka, either in here or in his evidence today.

MR VISSER: If it is clear to you that it wasn't Kubheka that was handed over at a highway, then I'm happy, but I didn't think that was so clear.

MR LAX: It's crystal clear to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think you can still - let's hear from Mr Radebe himself what he meant by this.

MR VISSER: That's all I'm asking, Chairperson.
	What do you mean by this in this paragraph?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I stated that the person we took him out of the car at the highway, he was a male person.  I said that it was a male person.  Then I handed him over - I handed McCarter even the AK47 and the Makarov, on the highway.

MR VISSER: And that incident had nothing to do with Ms Kubheka, is that what you're saying?  With what happened to her on that fateful day.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It is correct, Chairperson, because they happened on different occasions.

MR VISSER: Thank you, that's the only point.  Now when you described Ms Kubheka as a stout person, it's difficult to ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Can you start the question again.

CHAIRPERSON: He's just asked to repeat the question please Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Okay.  You said that Ms Kubheka was a stout person, do you recall?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I'm told that her daughter is in the audience, and if it's not an inconvenience I was wondering whether Mr Radebe would give us the benefit of his recollection of Kubheka's physical build, by comparison to the daughter and I was going to ask you if you would allow her to be asked just to stand if she is in the audience.  I see her here, Chairperson, in the second row in the middle, and perhaps Mr Radebe can give us some better idea of what he means by stout.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know who the daughter is or the name of the daughter.

MR VISSER: I believe it's a person in the second row, with the darkish jersey on, Chairperson, she could just confirm whether she's the daughter or not, if I'm wrong I'm wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mind standing up?  Are you the daughter of Ms Kubheka, the deceased?  Thank you very much.
	Mr Radebe, you've seen the person who stood up ...(intervention)

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And if you were to compare from your recollection the build of Ms Kubheka to the person who just stood up in the audience, would you say it's the same, different and how different?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: The person who stood up is a little bit taller, but in terms of the body build, Ms Kubheka was a little bit on the heavy side.

MR VISSER: On the heavy side?  What do you mean by "a little bit on the heavy side"?  Bigger or smaller or the same as the person that stood up in the audience?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: She was a little bit heavier, weightier than the person who stood up.

MR VISSER: Have you had an opportunity of looking at a dress yesterday, Mr Radebe?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did Chairperson, I saw it here.

MR VISSER: Is that the dress that is alleged to have come out of a grave, a maroon dress?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, it was of a smaller size.

MR VISSER: Would that dress have fitted Ms Kubheka, if you had to express an opinion?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Why not?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It was a smaller size.

MR VISSER: You're referring to Ms Kubheka or to the dress?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I'm referring to the dress, Chairperson, when I say it is of a smaller size.

MR VISSER: Just to make it absolutely clear, in my mind at least, you spoke in your evidence today about weapons that you handed to Mr McCarter, if I remember correctly, is that correct? And you referred to a Makarov and then you referred to an AK47, do you remember that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was this on this day during the abduction of Ms Kubheka, or was that again in the case of the other gentleman?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It was during the day or when we dropped this male person on the highway.

MR VISSER: The male person, alright.  Fine.  Now a strange thing that I want to ask you to tell the Committee about, is that Mr Jimmy Mbane stated, or it was put on his behalf, that on this day when Ms Kubheka was taken to Winkelspruit, he slept on the veranda in that building and he says that on that particular day he was going to bed, or he went to bed while Ms Kubheka was being interrogated in the storeroom at Winkelspruit.  What do you say about that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I stated that I, Jimmy and Dube were tired.  I don't remember where Jimmy was, but I and Dube slept in the kombi and when I woke up I told him that we should go and wash and change our clothes.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Actually that was put on your behalf by Mr Hugo as well.  You see, the question here is, who is right and who is wrong?  Did you in fact stay at CR Swart or did you in fact stay out at Winkelspruit while the Vlakplaas squad was here?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Please repeat your question.

MR VISSER: Are you correct in saying that you stayed at CR Swart in the hall on the fist floor while you were here from Pretoria, or are you making a mistake and is Mr Mbane correct, that actually all of you stayed out at Winkelspruit, that you camped there?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Even our belongings and even Mbane's belongings were at first floor at CR Swart Police Station, next to the Dog Unit.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So he would not have had blankets or other bedding there at Winkelspruit, as far as you recall, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson, we didn't even have clothes to change.

MR VISSER: You see, because Mr Mbane says that from where he went to sleep on the veranda, he saw and heard that Ms Kubheka was tortured until she died.  Now do you know anything about that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No Chairperson, at the place where she was tortured only white members were staying there and in many occasions we were staying far from white members.

MR VISSER: But all the same, if she was tortured to death, do you think you would have known about it, given the circumstances there at Winkelspruit?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: If they informed me I would know.

MR VISSER: Do you think you might have heard her crying out if she were tortured?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was far from her and the current in the sea was a little bit high and the cars were passing by.

MR VISSER: Do you recall hearing any firearms being discharged on that evening while she was at Winkelspruit?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER