Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

MR MVUDLE: We just wanted freedom because there was a lot of oppression.  We realised that even our education was not up to standard.  Our parents received minimum salary.  They did not have a living wage.  The youth at the time could not differentiate between AZAPO, ANC and PAC.  We perceived everyone who was arrested for political reasons as our leader whether they were PAC members, AZAPO or ANC.

RUSSELL ALLY: And as far as you are aware, did this position change after 1990 when the political organisations were unbanned, after February 1990.  Was there more of a sense
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then of having to belong to one or the other political organisation?

MR MVUDLE: A lot of things changed.  People were enlightened, especially the youth.  That is why there is a strong movement now because everybody joined the ANC after they realised what the ANC stands for and compared it to the other organisations.

RUSSELL ALLY: And when Mrs Nomandla spoke earlier, she gave her account of where this group, the Mazimzims, as she understood it, came from.  She spoke about the police dropping pamphlets in the township and the police offering rewards of up to R5 000.00 for people if they would come forward and report on those who were burning houses.  How do you respond to that understanding of hers about this movement, the Mazimzim?

MR MVUDLE: My mother died in June in 1990.  We buried her on the 17th of June.  Mrs Nomandla's statement here was that the police were distributing these pamphlets around August the first.

RUSSELL ALLY: She said the sixth of August 1990, was the date that she gave when the pamphlets were dropped in the township.

MR MVUDLE: There is a discrepancy between our statements.  I think this started around the third of May.  This is when this group within the community was formed.  My mother died around June.  The police then distributed the pamphlets around August.  Maybe there was a group, another one that was formed after August.  Well, it is, maybe she is talking about another group altogether because there is a discrepancy.

RUSSELL ALLY: Do you have any direct or personal knowledge of
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the police involving themselves in this conflict by either making approaches to any groups or individuals?  Did you have first hand knowledge of anything like that happening in the township?

MR MVUDLE: What I know is that a lot of children died.  As the first witness talked about Welverdien, a lot of children died there.  The police would take them at night and the children would disappear being killed at Welverdien.  Like the Eugene Bolawo case, the police took him and killed him.  There were two people who witnessed the murder and both these people were killed three months before they were meant to testify.

RUSSELL ALLY: And Mr Mvudle, now, Dr Randele did ask the question earlier of another witness, but it would be interesting to hear your views of how you see the situation in the township, now in Khutsong and whether you think there is a need for anything to be done.  Either by other organisations or just generally what the situation is.

MR MVUDLE: I think that things are normal in the township now.  We are fortunate in Khutsong because we only have one organisation, the ANC.  There is no opposition.  Things are now going smoothly.  There are no problems right now.

RUSSELL ALLY: You do not see lots of scars or bitterness still from the past because it seemed as if what was happening is the community was turning against each other.  Friends against friends, we have had mothers come and speak about what had happened to members of their family and you see names mentioned, implicated either said to be members of Mazimzim or members of Gadaffi.  You do not see that as having left scars or divisions amongst the community?

MR MVUDLE: I think that there are no such marks.  It takes
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time for people to forget.  It is only time that heals.  We live in harmony.  
 I had not finished before lunch.  We all met and we all talked saying that we are all residents in the township.  We have lost parents, friends.  Therefore there should be peace.  That is why there is peace now in the township after that meeting.  We talked to each other, there is no bitterness, nobody wants to retaliate.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sorry, this meeting you are speaking about, when did it take place exactly and who are the people who were involved in the meeting?

MR MVUDLE: As I said, the ANC was endeavouring to acquire peace in the township.  A lot of people were sent to the township.  Mr Strike was there who is present in the hall, Comrade Numvelong Konyana who is here as well.  These are the people who participated in the peace making.  I think it was 1993 that the meeting took place.  It is since then, we were all called to the Anglican Church.  Both sides were asked to verbalise their grievances and people spoke.  We were open, we said what it is that we do not like.  We said the children must go back to school because the children were no longer attending school.
 Thirdly, no police vehicles should enter the township.  Point number four, the police must do their jobs.  People were taking advantage because there was no order.  Number five, people had run away.  Those people should be allowed to come back to their homes.  Number six, we said that they must stop burning down peoples houses.  If they would stop all that then, definitely, there would be peace.  
 They also voiced out their grievances.  They had only one.  That we should stop liaising with the police.  That is KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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all they had to say.  After that there was peace.  To this day there is peace.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Mr Mvudle.  I am going to give you back to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS SEROKE: So you say that now there is peace.  Everybody is talking to everybody else.  Is there something that could, perhaps, be done in Khutsong that would commemorate the fact that there was violence, but now we live in peace.  As you said a lot of children died.  Is there something perhaps that would reiterate the peace.

MR MVUDLE: Our organisation, the ANC organisation is the one that I would like to stand up if there is violence in the townships.  The leadership should do something immediately.  Should be the one who should be in the forefront and say no.  That will unite all of us because everything starts there.  We do things and pretend as if we are doing whatever under the name of the organisation.  At the end that becomes a problem.  I would be very happy to see that because the struggle all over the world is controlled by the youth.  If they can unite our youth, that our youth should know what is the right path for the struggle.  I do not think we will ever face problems again in our townships if the situation is like that.

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much.  Could there, perhaps, be something else that could be done that would help the community at Khutsong?  Something in that line to, yes, something that will remind us, even during our peace that we should never go back to violence.

MR MVUDLE: I would request that all people who died in Khutsong on both sides, a tombstone that would commemorate all KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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the victims, a tombstone where all the victims' names would be written.  Maybe if we would see the list of the people who passed away, see the number, the magnitude of it all maybe that would be a constant reminder that we should never let it happen again.

CHAIRPERSON: Tamsange, before I sum up, I just want to ask a few questions.  What do you do yourself, at the moment?  What is your work?

MR MVUDLE: I am trying to form my own business, bricks, brickmaking.