Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

MR COETZEE: Well, my instructions are that the smile story emerged in the court case against Mr Van Zyl and Mr Holder and subsequently you have said it wasn't actually a smile, that you were actually startled, and today we hear that you didn't smile at all.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I can't say with clarity.  As I have said initially I thought that these were members of the Unit who were playing a prank on us, and whether I grinned or smiled or first expressed my disbelief by saying what are you trying to do, I can't remember whether the expression on my face was a smile or not.

MR COETZEE: Can you remember specifically that you dived, or was it a case of finding yourself on the ground?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, it was a case of hearing the gunshot and diving away, an attempt to get away.

MR COETZEE: Attempting to get away in the sense of getting away from where you originally were?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And the next place that you found yourself, was on the ground?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct, when I dived away, I was on the ground.

MR COETZEE: Well, whether Mr Holder would have pushed you and in the process assisted you in falling, would not be possible for you to comment on?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, it would not be possible.

MR COETZEE: You see, Mr Holder maintains that - or at this point, if I understand you correctly, according to you Mr Holder said nothing that evening inside the guard house?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: As far as I can recall, yes.

MR COETZEE: He says that when he entered the guard house, Mr Terreblanche had already jumped up and that he moved behind Mr Terreblanche towards you.
	He said that your impression that Terreblanche had sat for a while, is not accurate?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: As I have said, these things happened so quickly that I might not be clear about every single event.  What I remember about that evening is that Constable Terreblanche and I sat until he jumped up to struggle with the person.

MR COETZEE: So you could draw that inference?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: Mr Holder says that he didn't hear any remark or order telling you to remove your weapons?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, the first one was after we were told to sit still and not do anything stupid, we were told to remove our firearms.

MR COETZEE: Was the persons behind him still outside the guard house when this remark was made?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is true.

MR COETZEE: He says what he noticed then was that you attempted to draw your weapon.  Would that have been your action under the command of handing over your weapon?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is possible.

MR COETZEE: He says that he moved in behind you, pressed you on the left shoulder and pressed your right hand back into the holster, he says that that is the position which he assumed towards you relatively speaking?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That could be so.

MR COETZEE: Did you indeed feel any pressure on your left shoulder at that stage?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Possibly yes.

MR COETZEE: Did you experience yourself being pressed down?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, it wasn't a question of being pressed down.

MR COETZEE: He says that he wanted to prevent you from jumping up or drawing your weapon?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: If that is what he was attempting to prevent, then I would agree.  He probably would have been able to prevent it that way.

MR COETZEE: He says that the next moment, a gunshot was fired, which he did not fire.  He himself got a very big scare and he pushed you away and fled the room.
	He said that he never removed your firearm from your holster?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I can't say with clarity whether or not he is lying or whatever, all that I know is the evidence that I gave.

MR COETZEE: There was also no discussion between those fleeing, or an agreement to leave?  Your impression was this person was next to you one moment, and the next moment, he was running?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: If a search for weapons had taken place in the room next to you, you would have known about this?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And that didn't occur?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: Mr Holder says that his recollection of the events is that he only heard one gunshot.  Would you concede that under the same circumstances, people may have observed the events differently?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Well, circumstances determine your experience and what you hear, and that would differ form person to person.

MR COETZEE: Mr Swart, you recall as well that during the court case against Mr Van Zyl and Mr Holder, much was made of the statement which you made to the police on the 24th of April 1994, that was the following morning at quarter past three?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And we don't have the benefit of the original today, we only have the typed version, but during the court case, an in depth investigation was launched into the changing of times on that document.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Which times are you referring to?

MR COETZEE: The times with regard to the making of the statement?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, I can't remember anything about the making of the statement.

MR COETZEE: Mr Holder says that when he was arrested by Captain Nel, Captain Nel asked him where is your pistol, and there was no query made with regard to a pistol during his arrest.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I wouldn't know about that.

MR COETZEE: You were not present?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: Well, what I would like to put to you is that if shortly after the incident you would have reported to the police that you clearly saw a revolver in the hands of one of the persons, that Mr Holder would have been confronted with that information?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.  I testified what I saw that evening.  He entered with a revolver and that is what I put in my statement.  Just in the same way that I mentioned that the other person had a pistol.
	As far as my knowledge of pistols and guns extends, I said that it looked like a .38 Special and that is what appeared in my statement that following morning, directly after the incident, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: Mr Holder says that on this particular evening, he did not have his revolver in his hand, but in the hip, trouser pocket of his browns?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, he had the revolver, he aimed it at me and he held it against my head.

MR COETZEE: If Mr Holder would have wanted to harm you, then he had ample opportunity to do so on that particular evening?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, he did have ample opportunity.

MR COETZEE: He had an excellent opportunity to shoot you dead, if he had wanted to do so?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Anything further Mr Van Schalkwyk?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Just briefly two issues which I would like to touch upon.  You lived with Constable Terreblanche?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: So every evening you went home together and you were roommates?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you ever wear your weapons "one up"?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: So you would have known if he had done it?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: In the guard house, did you ever feel that the weight of your firearm had left the holster, that the firearm was being removed while the person was standing there by you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: It could be so, but I can't recall clearly.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Is it possible that after the first shot was fired and you dived away, that the second applicant or the person with the .38 fired at you and you simply weren't aware of it?