Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: If you were prepared to lie under oath once and attempted to defeat the ends of justice, can you give the Committee any yardstick in terms of which they could judge that you are possibly not lying during these proceedings as part of the armed struggle?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, anyone attending a hearing like this where truth is of the essence, would be an absolute idiot to even endeavour to lie to this Committee.

GEORGE BIZOS: How much wiser were you when you falsely tried to reopen your trial?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't understand the insinuation in that question Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: The insinuation is a simple one Mr Derby-Lewis, that you say that anyone who tries to mislead this Committee would be very foolish because the truth has to be told.  Didn't the truth have to be told to the Judge President of this Division when you tried to bluff your way through in setting aside your conviction and sentence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I explained and I repeat again, it was part of the struggle and any tactic was suitable.  To now lie before this Committee, what would I gain out of lying Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: To go free in order to continue the struggle.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, anyone knowing the accent on the truth as observed by this Committee and I have seen it, I watch its operations very closely, would not go along with something like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.   Mr Derby-Lewis, I want to put a number of questions to you before the court adjourns today so that we can plan the cross-examination over the weekend.
	Will you please turn to R4 page 251 because I want to know how much of this you admit and how much you deny.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have page R4, 251.

GEORGE BIZOS: 251, this is a statement by your wife.  Please look at paragraph 43.
"In January 1993 I telephoned Arthur Kemp at the Citizen in Johannesburg and said I was going to send him a list of names and that I wanted a description of their houses and addresses."
That is by way of introduction - I only want to know insofar as you are concerned, whether what is said is true or untrue?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is not true, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Well, you can't really say whether your wife telephoned Mr Kemp or not.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Leave that aside for the moment, but I said that was by way of introduction.
"This was done..."
this is your wife speaking, 
"This was done after much serious thought and because Clive and I felt that unless something dramatic was done, the country would be controlled by communists".
True or false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I cannot comment on my wife's evidence Mr Chairman.  I am unable to make myself aware of the circumstances under which it was given and whether these are correct or not.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, Mr Derby-Lewis, please listen to the question carefully.  This says that there was
".... after much serious thought and because Clive and I felt that unless something dramatic was done, the country would be controlled by communists, Clive and I therefore highlighted the names of people whom we believed to be the enemies of South Africa".
This is what your wife is recorded as having said, it reflects you, is it true or is it false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is false, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: It is false?  We will come back to it.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As far as I am concerned.

GEORGE BIZOS: Then your wife says that
"The journalists addresses...."
the last sentence, 
"....were requested because I wanted to write to them about their attitudes towards the CP".
As far as you know, was it necessary for your wife to employ an agent, like  Mr Kemp in order to find any journalists addresses?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: She purports to be a journalist herself.  Doesn't she?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: She does Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And why would Mr Kemp be employed  to find journalists addresses by another journalist?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, your wife gives the answer as we go along.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I can't answer it Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.
"When I spoke to Arthur on the phone about supplying the addresses and I did not go into specifics, he is politically shrewd and I believe that he felt that there was no need to spell out why we needed the names, after all we were on the phone".
	Do you know anything about that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: If those statements by your wife are true, would they tend to show that your wife was party to the conspiracy to murder Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't comment on what my wife said or what she was thinking or whatever Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And the other people on the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't comment on anything like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: You can't comment?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Paragraph 44
"Certain of the names of the list we ..."
"we" and the we in the statement is you and she, 
"Certain of the names on the list, we believed to be the enemies of South Africa".
is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh come Mr - you have already told us that these people were the enemies of South Africa, why do you deny it now?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Adv Bizos is trying to get me to confirm something which was given in so-called evidence by my wife under Section 29, and he wants me to confirm it.  I cannot do it.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, what I am asking you ...

CHAIRPERSON: Even though it is said by your wife, she is expressing views in which she says that you held similar views to her.  Now the question is really certain names on the list we believed to be the enemies of South Africa.
	As I have understood your evidence, you have said that it is so that some people on that list you did regard as enemies of South Africa.  So to that extent you have to concede that what is said by your wife, is correct.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, if I testified that I drew up lists of people I considered to be our enemies and our opponents, I admitted that in previous evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: ... in the first sentence is something with which you don't disagree?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As far as I am concerned?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was that not also your wife's view?  After all you were married to one another and on good terms apparently.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, whether she agreed with my views or not, I cannot express an opinion on her testimony or her so-called evidence, I cannot do that.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you listened to the preamble to my question ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I did Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Your wife is recorded as having said, what I am asking you is whether as far as you are concerned and insofar as she make references, she makes references to you, is what is recorded correct or incorrect?  Do you understand what I am saying?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Mr Chairman, as long as I am not being asked to confirm her testimony.  If I am being asked to confirm her opinion, it is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just listen again, I will repeat to confirm.  I will repeat it.  You are a man in public life  and you have shown great understanding of the English language and particularly articulate.  I will repeat my question so that there is no misunderstanding.
	I will read out to you what your wife is recorded to have said.  Insofar as it related to you, I want to ask you whether what is recorded is true or untrue, is that clear?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As regards to me, it is true.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you know whether your wife regarded the people on the list as enemies of the State?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: On which list Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: The list that your wife is referring to, the list that is before the court in various, any list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, there are already three lists before the court.