Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: If I had been in danger, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But not in a situation where you were not in danger?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: For example to attack someone who had weapons, to shoot that person and then take his weapons?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Van Zyl, were you aware that the AWB also issued instructions to its members, as it has been seen in previous applications, to obtain guns unlawfully for the war?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have any training in AWB camps?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Not in the handling of weapons?  Did you have military training?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: At Devon itself, I would like to refer you, just a minute please, page 39 of the bundle, paragraph 18, I will read it to you.  Later that evening, we went back to Secunda and we passed the Devon Radar Complex.  Mr De Meillon told us that he had performed military duty there earlier, and that there was an arsenal where weapons could easily be obtained.
	Did you hear that, did you see that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr De Meillon said expressly that he knew that there were weapons there, that he had done military service there earlier and that the plan was to obtain the weapons from that place, is that correct?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: If the weapons had been there, we would have informed others, depending upon the amount of weapons that we were supposed to go and fetch.

MR PRINSLOO: You say here as I understand it, that when you stopped there the plan was to obtain weapons?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Then what are you trying to say, could you please explain this to the Committee.
	You say that Mr De Meillon informed us that he had performed military service there earlier, and that there was an arsenal where weapons could easily be obtained and you stopped there, is that correct?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So what else did Mr De Meillon and Mr Holder do there, other than fetch weapons, because that was the plan?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: The order was to reconnoitre the area, to go and see what was going on there.

MR PRINSLOO: But according to Mr Van Schalkwyk, your Commander, the order which was given for Pretoria, was to go and fetch weapons and you could decide for yourself what your plan would be and what the time would be when you would undertake this.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So it is not even about reconnaissance, it is about fetching the weapons, that is the order?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So why would there be a sudden change in plan at Devon, especially when this person knew the place and he had undergone training there, and he knew that there were weapons, that the guards had automatic weapons, that it was an Air Force base and both of them went in there, armed, Holder and De Meillon, what else did you understand about this order?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: It was to go and fetch weapons in Pretoria.

MR PRINSLOO: But if I understand the evidence correctly, you didn't know exactly where you were supposed to fetch these weapons, only Mr De Meillon would know?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So how can you say there specifically, aren't you making a mistake regarding what was said?  What is your position?  Think carefully.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: We were supposed to go and see what was going on in Devon.

MR PRINSLOO: But you didn't say that here in your application?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I assumed that if there were weapons, they would have taken them, but that was not the order.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Prinsloo, when you left Secunda or when you climbed into your car in Secunda and you started driving, were you aware of where you were going?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: We only knew that we were going to Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you this?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: On the way to Pretoria, Mr De Meillon told me that we were going to Vermeulen Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's leave Vermeulen Street there for a moment, you have climbed into your car and you are driving your car, did you know where you were going?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, we were going to Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that you were going to Pretoria?  Did you know exactly where in Pretoria you were headed, or did you find this out only as you were approaching Pretoria, or once you were in Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Only once we were in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that you were supposed to drive from Secunda to Pretoria.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that you were supposed to drive from Secunda to Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you informed before you started driving away from Secunda, that you were to go to Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Mr De Meillon.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chair.  You knew that the circumstances in Pretoria were not favourable and that another plan had to be made?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Did this happen on the way?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Because you were subject to the orders of Mr De Meillon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: While you were waiting in the car and Holder and De Meillon went into the base, according to your version and your statement, you heard three shots, is that correct?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, did you believe that there was indeed still an Air Force base there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: You weren't aware that the police had taken over that place with the Division of Internal Stability?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR PRINSLOO: For your purpose it was necessary in order to obtain automatic weapons?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And from your experience in the Defence Force, was it correct that those members always stood guard with automatic weapons?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: The fact that a pistol was taken or dropped, is a factor of circumstances?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: But the taking of an automatic weapon, whether by violence or not, would have been acceptable to you under the circumstances?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: I would to put it to you clearly that Mr De Meillon never told you in Pretoria that the guards were to be eliminated, and only then would their weapons be taken.
	Their weapons were to be taken and then, if problems were to arise, the possibility would exist that they may be exist?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But then what did you mean when you said that Mr De Meillon said that you were to eliminate the guards?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That they had to be killed in order to obtain their weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: At which stage were they to be killed then because you were very close to the Military Headquarters' building in Vermeulen Street and there were a number of guards standing around there.  What did Mr De Meillon say to you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: He said that we were to eliminate the guards and take their firearms, once we had seen how many guards were standing duty.

CHAIRPERSON: So he said that you were to eliminate these guards, in other words you were supposed to kill them?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then take their weapons?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you say?