Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-07

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, let me put it to you this way.  As I said in my evidence-in-chief, I received a call from Brigadier Schoon to attend the meeting.  I didn't know what the meeting would deal with.  I listened at the meeting, I listened to the chairperson and the instruction that the chairperson gave me, and I objected to the instruction that was given to me, and the chairperson informed me that I misunderstood him, it was indeed an instruction from the Commissioner of Police and it's not a question if I should but how I should.  Afterwards I said that I cannot take instructions from the Defence Force, I should get it from the Police.  He then said that the representative from the police is there, Brigadier Schoon.  I asked him and he confirmed it.

MR KNOETZE: Can we deal with the next aspect.  You refer to the Ilizalomsa as a terrorist organisation.  Perhaps it's a problem with terminology, but in the language of General van der Westhuizen it was a resistance movement.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Well that is then a resistance movement committing acts of terror.

MR KNOETZE: Now if I understand your evidence correctly, you weren't absolutely sure that these acts of terror that you referred to were committed by Ilizalomsa.  The information indicated that but it appears as if the case was never really investigated.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: There was never a criminal case before the Court, but some of these people were identified with acts in Ciskei explosions that occurred, who then went back to the Transkei and we just couldn't get them extradited.

MR KNOETZE: Now you heard General van der Westhuizen's evidence that such a resistance movement was necessary for Plan Katzen.  You heard what the aims were, what he envisaged, and you also heard that he said that as far as he can remember there were only 11 people who were trained to form the core of this resistance movement.  Can you dispute this testimony?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR KNOETZE: And then also something which is perhaps self-explanatory, but if any of the 11 or perhaps any other people who joined Ilizalomsa later, if they should have committed crimes then surely you would not lay it in front of General van der Westhuizen.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, certainly not.

MR KNOETZE: Because I put it to you on his behalf, that he did not know of any acts of terror.  And then also, that what was committed later on when the Defence Force then withdrew their support for Katzen, that not he nor the Defence Force can take responsibility for that.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, I agree with that.

MR KNOETZE: If I can then refer you to Exhibit F, page 6, from paragraph 17.  It is said that at this meeting at Mesikaba, what happened there.  The information contained in these paragraphs, where did you receive the information for this?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Chairperson, I first had to read through it.  It could be from different documents from the Security Head Office.  Do you refer to the whole part from 17 onwards?  I am at paragraph 17.

MR KNOETZE: Chairperson, it does seem as if the witness and myself are not referring to the same pages, could I just show the page to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Just to make sure that we've got the same page, at the top it's got 6 - under "Uiters Geheim", it's got 6 and then it's paragraph 17.  It's this Annexure F that was handed in.  That is the long document that you had that you found it not necessary to read into the record.

MR KNOETZE: Yes, Mr Chairman, it may Exhibit E, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Does this start with
"Na hierdie mislukte Staatsgreep, veral sedert Januarie '91, is inligting wat dui ..."

MR KNOETZE: It's Annexure E originally to something, but now part of F and it starts off with
"R F Reid-Daly"
And then - you are correct, Mr Chairman, the page that I'm referring to is page 6 and paragraph 17 is lower down.  I'll assist the witness to get that page, Mr Chairman.  He now has it in front of him, Mr Chairman.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That was obtained from a statement by Ron Reid-Daly.

MR KNOETZE: In other words, you are not alleging here that what is contained here is correct?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, not at all.

MR KNOETZE: Because I want to say to you that the persons - Chief Lent Makoma, if you turn the page to page 7
"Major-General Mitigaga and Piet van der Riet, Transkei Defence Force were not present at the meeting."
And I put it to you on behalf of General van der Westhuizen that that is how he recollects it.  I also want to refer you to Annexure A, Colonel Rusty van Rooyen and the minutes which he attached to his statement.  On the first page he says:
"The report with regard to deliberations at Mesikaba, between Ron Reid-Daly, General Sebe, Chief Ensebe ..."
That must be Namba.
"... Brigadier van der Westhuizen, Colonel van Rooyen and Major van der Merwe."
I also put it to you on behalf of Brigadier van der Merwe, on page 4 of his document in paragraph 7 he says who were present and he is also does not mention those people.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I will accept it, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: If I can refer to page 3 of that document.  In paragraph 8 and 9 reference is made to a specific Saturday and what happened.  And in paragraph 9
"At a later stage, at a later opportunity, Nkeba(?) and others were involved as well as Minaar."
Do you know when that occurred?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, I have no idea.

MR KNOETZE: In other words, you will not dispute it if I put it to you that that was long before Katzen?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I'm aware that it took place long before Katzen, it cannot be linked to this.

MR KNOETZE: And then another page, page 2, paragraph 5.  It is referring to General van der Westhuizen, is that correct?  That it is General P W van der Westhuizen and not my client, Joffel van der Westhuizen?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Knoetze, could you just give that last reference, page?

MR KNOETZE: It is page 2, Mr Chairman, paragraph 5 of the document which starts with
"R F Reid-Daly"

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KNOETZE: Just to link it, in other words you also do not take responsibility for what is given in paragraph 8, page 7, of how this plan was then compiled, phase 1, 2 and 3 and the rest, because this comes from Ron Reid-Daly and not from you or anyone in your command?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is correct.

MR KNOETZE: In other words, you also do not take responsibility for the allegation on page 20, that my client, General Joffel van der Westhuizen insisted that immediate priority should be given to the implementation of phase 1 and 2?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR KNOETZE: Just for record purposes I want to put it to you that he denies it because as you heard, only phase 1 was partially approved and he never insisted on the implementation of phase 2.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I accept it.

MR KNOETZE: And then it is also quite clear that the words used on page 9, paragraph 21 of "eliminate" aren't words that you take responsibility for, those are the words used by Ron Reid-Daly of what was said there.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Absolutely, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: And that idea is then also contradictory to what van der Merwe also says in his statement.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I accept it.

MR KNOETZE: My attorney shows me that Ron Reid-Daly is English, but this an Afrikaans version.  In other words, this might also not be a correct translation of the English?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That would have been my translation of his English.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOETZE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Knoetze.  Mr Claassen, do you have any questions?