Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

GEN STEYN: I wouldn't be able speak for the National Defence Force but that would necessarily be the feeling of the normal uniformed members.

MR WEBSTER: Correct me if I'm wrong, General, I do not believe that was the time specially in '86 when the entire police force was under this pressure that you talk about, is that not correct?

GEN STEYN: Probably not the whole force.

MR WEBSTER: And correct me again, as far as I believe and recall there was never a stage when the entire defence force was committed to this total onslaught by the communists in the sense that within the boundaries of the country they then had to fight this onslaught?

GEN STEYN: Chairperson, the South African Police was responsible for the maintenance of law and order within the country.

MR WEBSTER: To see, to my mind, if at all what you are telling us ever did take place it was to a very select few and that it was those few who would have been members of the Special Branch, is that correct?

GEN STEYN: Could you repeat the question please?

MR WEBSTER: If those perceptions did exist then they probably existed in the minds of a few members of the Special Branch, is that not so?

GEN STEYN: Probably in most of the Security Branch members but also other members like the task force members who had to deal with these operations who had to act on scenes where there were terrorists, that was indeed the case>

MR WEBSTER: General, you know the least - I shouldn't say you know it, but you have an idea about the - is it the Geneva Convection, about prisoners of war?

GEN STEYN: Yes I know thereof.

MR WEBSTER: And you are aware General, I'm sure, that the people who are in a war, people who are in a war are expected to respect that convention?

GEN STEYN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: In other words where real bombs are raining around them, all sorts of devastation is taking place around them, when a soldier lifts his hands up he is expected to be taken as a prisoner of war.

GEN STEYN: I am not up to date of the finer details of that convention but it sounds correct to me.

MR WEBSTER: In fact no soldier, no matter under what circumstances may shoot at defenceless children or defenceless civilians?

GEN STEYN: Under normal circumstances that's correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: You know what is going on in the Balkans at the moment, Sarajevo and Yugoslavia and all these areas, you know what is going on there?

GEN STEYN: I read about it in the newspaper.

MR WEBSTER: And you know that humanity, society does not accept that conduct?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: And at no stage has society ever indicated that it would condone such conduct, not so?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: That in fact in 1986 we were part of a world which was sophisticated sufficiently to abhor conduct that you say was conduct which became acceptable to the members of the Special Branch?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: General, what was your rank in '86?

GEN STEYN: Col.

MR WEBSTER: And to get to General, how many ranks must you go through?

GEN STEYN: Another one.

MR WEBSTER: When did you get the rank of General?

GEN STEYN: I think '92.

MR WEBSTER: You got it in '92.

GEN STEYN: I think so if I remember well.

MR WEBSTER: Right and I take it that the Minister of Police must have known about your conduct at that stage?

GEN STEYN: Of what conduct are you referring to?

MR WEBSTER: This conduct here of a total onslaught and your having to kill and behave as you did in order to prevent these communists from taking over and this ANC from taking over this country to ensure that the National Party remained in control?  He must have known about that?

GEN STEYN: No, I never discussed it with the Minister, I never told the Minister.

MR WEBSTER: But you are aware that the Minister from time to time did praise members of the Special Branch for some of these disgusting and most horrific conduct?

GEN STEYN: Yes there were several instances where the politicians voiced their opinions about this.

MR WEBSTER: You had - you have, even at this very moment an onerous duty to be an example to each and every officer that served under you or that might hear of you in the future, is that not so?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: You knew that what you were doing was wrong?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: When did you decide that now we are going to leave - or before I get to that, I withdraw that.  And I take it that you're a Christian?

GEN STEYN: That is correct, yes.

MR WEBSTER: I take it that you have taken the oath because you want to tell the truth?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: And I take it that you have taken the oath previously and lied?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: How old are you?

GEN STEYN: 59.

MR WEBSTER: You still go to church, do you?

GEN STEYN: Regularly.

MR WEBSTER: And in 1986 you still went regularly to church, did you?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: You never had a twinge of conscience about what you were doing?

GEN STEYN: Yes I did.

MR WEBSTER: But despite that you never ever got to a stage where as a Christian, as a conscience, you felt that you had to admit your sins for your transgression for the evil that you had done in 1986, it was only when the amnesty process came into existence and at the very last minute that you decided to make an application for amnesty, is that not so?

GEN STEYN: No, that is not so.  After these acts, after several acts - you asked me if I was a Christian and I say that I cleared it out with the Lord.  We were in a state of war as we saw it and I settled the matter with the Lord and I tell you that a Christian is not infallible, a Christian does make mistakes and if you read the Bible you will hear and see the Bible says we are there to err but we may turn to the Lord and He would grant us forgiveness.  Yes I have cleared this matter with the Lord in totality, not only this one, all the others for which I have applied for.

MR WEBSTER: General, that is your secret between you and your God and may you have peace some day.

GEN STEYN: I have definitely.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Webster, can we really get down to the substance of this application instead of the character of the individual and his religious beliefs?

MR WEBSTER: General, you say you associate yourself with annexure A, is that not so?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: You were present here yesterday when we dealt with it when I was cross-examining Mr Botha, do you remember?

GEN STEYN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: You virtually know the type of questions that I'm going to ask you regarding annexure A?

GEN STEYN: I'm not certain what you will ask.

MR WEBSTER: That annexure A was not composed by you, is that correct?

GEN STEYN: No, but I have knowledge of which is entailed in there.

MR WEBSTER: And in fact it was composed by your legal representatives and at some stage updated, was that not so?

GEN STEYN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Because they felt that it had to incorporate other aspects, is that not so?

GEN STEYN: Yes, the aspects which is in regard to our case.

MR WEBSTER: As the applications for amnesty proceeded, is that correct?

GEN STEYN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: I just want to get to your application, General.
During the lunch break I took Mr Botha's application which would be annexure B and I put it next to yours which is annexure C and on the left side of your application I wrote the corresponding affidavits which appear from annexure B or Exhibit B.  Do you understand what I'm saying?  I looked at paragraph 1 of yours, identical to paragraph 1 of Mr Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.