Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: You said you learnt that the attackers of Mr Majosi were members of the Youth, were they referred to by the person who informed you as members of the ANC Youth League necessarily, or the youth of the community?

MATTHEWS PISTO MOHLAKWANE: He said it was the Youth.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Why was your wife attacked?

MATTHEWS PISTO MOHLAKWANE: I do not know the reason for my wife's attack, I really do not know the reason.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

MR MOTATA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Mohlakwane.  You may stand down.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Mr Chairman, that is the applicant's case.
APPLICANT'S CASE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you intend leading evidence?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I intend leading evidence from the side of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will listen to that evidence at two o'clock.  We will now take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you perhaps outline to us, is the basis or what is the basis of the opposition?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, the families oppose the amnesty because they say that the truth has not come out, in fact they contest most of the allegations which have been set out from the applicants' case.
	They want in a way to give their perspective of the actual events they say took place, and now in that regard, Chairperson, there are some witnesses who are members of the ANC Youth League.  One of those witnesses whom I am going to call now, Chairperson, is Tusaneng Lekabe, who has been referred to by the applicants on a number of occasions as to what happened on that day, and so he will show what actually happened and where the differences are between the versions of the applicants and the versions of the victims.
	Then we have those who were captured, but released.  Some of them feel that the way they were captured, has not been set out the way it actually happened and the injuries they suffered and the treatment they were subjected to, has not been given here.  The family members in particular the mothers, of the deceased, want to show what happened on that day and their role before their children happened to be killed, and they want to show that, in fact they say that they are particularly concerned that an impression is given that they did not respond when there children were caught, whereas they did respond, but they were chased away by the applicants.  It is along those lines, Chairperson, that this evidence is going to go.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it on the issue from the victims point of view, one of lack of full disclosure?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, it is lack of full disclosure, but some of the witnesses from the side of the ANC Youth League, claim that what has been done, was not politically motivated.  They have got a feeling that it was a pure criminal act.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the basis of the opposition therefore that one, there hasn't been a full disclosure, and secondly there was no political motive behind the killing?

MR MAPOMA: Absolutely.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, would you call the first witness.

MR MAPOMA: May I call Tusaneng Lekabe.

CHAIRPERSON: How many witnesses do you propose calling Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I propose calling three witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these three witnesses going to deal with the issue of full disclosure?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what else?

MR MAPOMA: And political motivation, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  To the extent that it may be necessary, I think it is clear from what Mr Mapoma has said, that we will have to sit beyond today.  I would like to inform the interpreters and the recording people that we will be here on Monday and we will run from Monday until we are finished.
	Mr Lekabe, what language are you going to speak?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I am going to speak Sotho sir.

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: (sworn states)

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Lekabe, during December 1993, where did you reside?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I stayed in Muleleki Extension 2.

MR MAPOMA: Were you a member of any local structure of the community there?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct My Lord.  I was the Secretary General of our area, which is Muleleki Extension 2.  We were under the umbrella of SANCO, and I was the Secretary, Information Secretary within the Youth League.

MR MAPOMA: So you were the Secretary General of the Civic Organisation?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct My Lord.

MR MAPOMA: And the Secretary of the ANC Youth League?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you know, do you know Bulelwa who died on the 6th of December 1993?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, I know her.  She was a member of the Civic.  She was a member of the Block Committee.   Yes, I knew her.  Because she was one member of the Civic in Block F.

MR MAPOMA: Now, between the ANC Youth League and SANCO was there any working relationship?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: There was sir.

MR MAPOMA: Can you describe briefly what kind of working relationship did you have?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: At times we patrolled together, until there was a separation, then we were told that the SDU will be operating at night.

MR MAPOMA: Sorry, I am asking the working relationship between the ANC Youth League and the Civic?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.  The Civic is a much bigger structure, taking care of all the community.  Every problem that arose, was reported to the Civic.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any members of the ANC Youth League, who formed part of the Civic?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: No sir.

MR MAPOMA: You said you were a member of the ANC Youth League, and also a member of the Civic, haven't you, you said so?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is what I said.

MR MAPOMA: Now, can you just describe the working relationship that was there between the ANC Youth League and the Civic Organisation in Muleleki Extension?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I already said that all organisations within the township, reported to the Civic.  There was a working relationship, we did not take sides.  Everybody was accepted by the Civic.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying the ANC Youth League was also reporting to the Civic, is that what you are saying?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct My Lord.

MR MAPOMA: Now about Bulelwa in particular, was she having a working relationship with the ANC Youth League?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I would say yes because she was regarded as a leader.  She used to sit down with them and give them MRice, they liked her.

MR MAPOMA: Do you recall the incident of the 6th of December 1993?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct sir.  On the 6th of December 1993, round about five past, if not ten past eight at night, the deceased Buthelezi came home crying, and he was shouting, he was saying oh, please, please and I tried to calm him down.  I said Mr Buthelezi, calm down, speak so that we can understand what happened.
	He said no, comrade Bulelwa has passed away and I said how should I be of assistance.  And he said Mr Mokoena said I must come and fetch you.  There was another man, an inhabitant.

MR MAPOMA: So you say that Mr Buthelezi reported that Bulelwa has been killed?  Then what did you do?