Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

CHAIRPERSON: It is the 30th of September 1997.  We are 
proceeding with the applications that we have been hearing since 
yesterday and the panel of the Committee is constituted as 
yesterday.
	We have just finished hearing Mr Lotz and there is a request 
as to whether he can be excused from further attendance, and I 
believe that can be done, unless somebody has problems with it, 
subject of course to the condition that he would be available should 
he be needed.

ADV BOOYENS: He is available, Mr Chairman, he is a cellphone 
call away.  He would obviously not be available within five minutes 
or so, but we can get hold of him, he his not leaving town or 
anything like that.  In that regard, may I perhaps also ask, we have 
handed to you in chambers an affidavit by Mr Lotz, in which he just 
expands on his application, where we ask for an amendment to his 
application, to cover certain other offences, not necessarily other 
offences, but offences which might flow from the same incident.  
Does the Commission require me to read it into the record or is it 
adequate that my Attorney handed it over to you in chambers?

CHAIRPERSON: Because it is a loose paper, it maybe just get 
displaced, maybe you should just read it into the record.

ADV BOOYENS: Certainly Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the 
affidavit reads
		I the undersigned, Gerhardus Johannes Lotz declare 
under oath as follows  On the 29th of September 1997 
I have already proposed by amnesty application, 
additionally should be added to paragraph 9(a)(1) 
offences and as well as any other offence or omission 
and more specifically, perjury and an attempt at 
defeating the ends of justice as appears clearly from my 
evidence before this Commission".
And it is signed by the deponent and confirmed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the amendment is granted.

ADV BOOYENS: As the Committee pleases Mr Chairman.

ADV FORD: Mr Chairman, may I take this opportunity, I am sorry 
to interrupt, merely to place on record Mr Chairman, that we have 
been confronted, I am talking about my Attorney and myself, with 
some difficulties.  For reasons which aren't clear, we were not 
furnished with a full copy of the amnesty applications, we were not 
aware of that obviously until certain documentation was referred to 
yesterday.
	Yesterday for the first time we came into the possession of the 
applications of the applicants Ras, Kok and Du Toit and certain 
portions of the application of the present applicant today, Mr 
Nieuwoudt, Mr Chairman.
	We have studied what is now available to us, we believe that 
it may well require an application to recall at least Mr Van 
Rensburg, to deal with certain issues which are dealt with more 
clearly in these applications.  I just wanted to place that on record.  
There is an outside possibility that that may also involve Lotz, but I 
do not anticipate that to be so, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, why would you say that Van Rensburg 
might be recalled?

ADV FORD: Because of certain further information which has 
become apparent from the documentation which we now have 
relating both to the fraud aspect and to the Goniwe aspect, if I can 
refer to it in those terms Mr Chairman, and certain other information 
which has also become available.  But I do not wish to deal with it 
at this stage Mr Chairman, I merely wish to place it on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you will motivate that application as and 
when ... (intervention)

ADV FORD: Certainly, when I bring it, Mr Chairman, I will 
motivate it.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ford, kindly for our own household 
purposes, when did you receive the applications and when did you 
receive the further documents?

ADV FORD: Mr Chairman, through you Mr Chairman, we were 
formally instructed some ten days ago when we got the batch of 
documentation which we believed to be full, the full documentation 
relating to the applications.  During the first part of the hearing 
yesterday, it became apparent that certain of the applications had 
not been made available to us.  
	I got from Mr Brink his copies, his bound copies, we don't 
have such bound copies, indexed copies of the applications, I got it 
from him and over lunch time yesterday we were able to make copies 
of all those documents which we had not been furnished with, but 
obviously we didn't have time to peruse them.  Last night and this 
morning we have spent time perusing them and trying to investigate 
and consider certain of the other issues which are raised there.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.  Mr Brink, I take it you would kindly 
take it up with the office in Cape Town, why wasn't the victims' 
representatives furnished with full copies of the documents?

MR BRINK: I have made a note of that already Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I sincerely hope this is not going to cause some 
delays in our proceedings, because in our view, there is no reason 
why we shouldn't dispose of this matter by Thursday evening, 
Thursday.
	I sincerely hope that every attempt would be made to try and 
help Mr Ford where necessary and Mr Ford, you will make use of 
such time as would be available to you to clear up such issues so as 
to avoid delay in the matter.

ADV FORD: I certainly will Mr Chairman, and it is certainly not 
our intention to delay the proceedings, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I call Gideon Johannes 
Nieuwoudt.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: (sworn states)

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Nieuwoudt you are 
applying for amnesty in the matter  and you have your amnesty 
application in front of you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

ADV BOOYENS: I refer to the first page thereof to the point 
where you start with your personal summary on the second page of 
that, do you confirm the correctness of that?  Mr chairman, this is at 
page 296, it starts off at page 296 of the record.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you further confirm the contents of 
paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 of the application?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The personal summary illustrates where your 
political convictions were shaped and indicates that you later 
became a supporter of the National Party government and the basis 
for that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: On page 300, that is page 5 of the application, 
you deal with the general background and your experience in the 
Security Branch, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you confirm what appears in paragraphs 1, 2, 
3 and 4.  Is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In paragraph 5 you refer to certain annexures.  
Perhaps we could just tell the Committee that annexure 3 appears on 
page 377, annexure 4 on page 385, annexure 9 appears on page 421 
and 422 and annexure 12 appears on page 435, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you enclose these annexures as 
corroboration of the fact that the broad masses in the 1970's and 
1980's had become very politicised?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You also in terms of paragraph 6, these 
annexures 5 and 6?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: On page 304, that is page 9 of your application, 
you refer to the four pillars of the revolutionary war and the 
opposition against the National Party government?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And then you further elaborate in this paragraph 
on this aspect and how it ultimately developed that there was this 
so-called - that the politicisation led to a mobilisation for so-called 
people's war, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You then continue on page 304, paragraph 7, to 
sketch the history further as well as in paragraph 8?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Paragraph 9?