Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

JUDGE WILSON: Well where?  Read me the first few words.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: "Within a period of three weeks....."

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Starting with that Mr Chairman.  Now that paragraph, including the very following paragraph, that is non-human rights violation action Mr Chairman, it is the bombing of houses in Mamelodi, as indicated by Mr Visser.
	Paragraph B Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Paragraph B yes, "While driving through Mamelodi..."

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: "While driving through Mamelodi..." there we had a problem again Mr Chairman inasfar as Fikile is concerned because Fikile was abducted, shot at in Mamelodi, but was not killed, but the particulars, the full particulars of Fikile could not come forth even from the applicant himself Mr Chairman, save making use of the name Fikile.
	Mr Chairman the Investigative Unit member Mr Pilato of the Durban office had referred this to the Johannesburg office to see if anything can be done in tracing this Fikile who was shot at in Mamelodi, but up to this moment no report has been provided.

JUDGE WILSON: Has the clinic got no record of him?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman as I indicated this matter was now referred by Durban to the Johannesburg Investigative Unit and nothing has come out of it up to now.

JUDGE WILSON: When was it referred?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman the Investigative Unit member was here, I got this report from him this morning that this is what he had done Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well what is the point of leaving things to the last moment to get reports on the day after the hearing is supposed to have commenced.  Isn't notifying victims one of the first things that's done when applications are received?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman that is one of the first things that is done when the application is to be heard Mr Chairman, but as I have indicated this was done for hearing purposes, but as I've indicated again the matter was investigated first by the Durban Investigative Unit in whose jurisdiction Bloemfontein falls, now because of this issue that this man was shot at in Mamelodi the Durban Investigative Unit referred the matter to the Johannesburg Investigative Unit in whose jurisdiction the matter falls, and that is where the buck stopped Mr Chairman.  Otherwise Mr Chairman in the other victims the victims are available in herein with us today and the matter can be proceeded with.  Yes Mr Chairman Mr Visser says victims, I say the victims in the true sense of victims.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: If you are talking of victims there you mean people who were injured.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Visser have you got anything to say about this suggestion?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman I am in the hands of my learned friend.  Clearly if he can't continue for whatever reason I can't compel him to do so.  Perhaps we should just kick off and see how it goes Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, then I hand over to my learned friend.  Thank you.

MR NEMANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now Mr Chairman I must point out from the outset, due to time limitations we are prepared to proceed only as far as the Venter killing is concerned.  We are not prepared on the other matters that were subsequently confessed to by the applicant.

JUDGE WILSON: Are these incidents so completely separable that one can hear one on its own and then hear the other?

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman that is indeed so.  The Venter murder consists an entity on its own.  The Venter murder constitutes an entity on its own, whereas the rest of the activities were separate and took place on separate occasions.  I propose that we proceed on the Venter killing this afternoon and that we proceed with the rest of the incidents tomorrow morning.

JUDGE WILSON: I am sorry I thought you meant we would proceed with the rest of the incidents on another occasion.  You mean we are going to deal with all of them but we will deal with them in portions.  Very well carry on, on that basis.

MR NEMANE: I am indebted to you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: I take it that that means you would prefer not to sit too late so you have a chance to consult further?

MR NEMANE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: (sworn states)

MR NEMANE: Now Mr Ngo is it correct that principally you are applying for amnesty in respect of murder, robbery, possession of a firearm and ammunition that forms the subject matter of an incident that took place at Mr Venter's house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: (...indistinct)

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly formulate what you are asking amnesty for, because if we give amnesty we can't grant amnesty for some general offence, we should say exactly what it is because otherwise the offence can't be identified.  So give us the date, the place and what all the aspects you are asking for.

MR NEMANE: Now Mr Chairman the applicant has been convicted of murder, robbery, possession of the firearm and ammunition.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that page 1 and 2 of the indictment?

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Not the indictment no, of the police papers, page B.  These are these offences you are talking about.

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman those are the offences I'm talking about.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman on paragraph C there's a whole indictment listing them out clearly.

JUDGE WILSON: Paragraph where?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: C of the bundle.

JUDGE WILSON: That gives the dates and everything else we need.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR NEMANE: As the Chairman pleases.  Now Mr Ngo, can you tell Mr Chairman how you became involved in the killing of Mr Venter?