Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 1999-03-08

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, if it's consistent with the way in which Mr Hlongwane had been primed and developed by his organisation, we now we've heard evidence of how he was made to be a killing machine at a very young age, we have not, however, been presented with any evidence to show that his brutality extended to raping.  And there has been a litany of incidents which really shows him to have been a killing machine.  Yet, not a single incident is suggestive of his brutality to have extended to raping women to show his innermost hatred for the ANC.  And that I have a serious problem with.

MR WILLS: Yes, Ms Committee Member, my submission in that regard would be that the majority of the incidences, by far, that Hlongwane was involved in, were attacks in the opposition's territory.  His whole modus operandi particularly from when he left Hammarsdale, was he was a single operator. He didn't go with groups.  He had people pointing out places for him.  In Ermelo it was the individual by the name of China, they went looking into the enemy turf for people.  They shot them and attacked them in their turf and then they came back.  This is one of the few examples where an actual attack occurred in the safety of his home ground, where he had the luxury, of one can very badly described it that way, of saying to his, his co-operatives, to say, you keep these people in custody, while I go, and I don't think that is disputed, while I go and seek guidance on what to do with these people from our leader.  And as he says in his evidence it was the first time that he was dealing with women.  That's as far as I can take it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think I understand your difficulty, but  I wanted to share with you my difficulty and give you an opportunity to respond to my difficulty, because I still remain with that difficulty.  It was his first time you concede, to have been able to have one, a woman spy, secondly to deal with women at all.

MR WILLS: No that's not entirely what I'm saying with respect Ms Committee person.  The import of what I'm saying is that, one, it was the first time yes that he had caught women spies, but importantly in direct answer to your question, in his, in the safety of his own area.  It wasn't a hit and run type of attack.  And I submit that it's quite unusual, I haven't seen it in any of the offences, for women to be, in these incidents where women come into other areas, with the specific purpose to attack, and I submit that in probability had that occurred more frequently then this same result would have occurred more frequently.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And it is your submission that if you are filled with great hatred, it is quite something plausible for an erection to happen because of your hatred?

MR WILLS: As I say, I'm not in a position to comment on that with any degree of certainty, I'm not an expert in that field, but I can only say that there clearly, that rape is quite common in warfare, and in that sense it's not done for reasons of love and affection.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Taking the totality of the evidence that has been presented to this Committee by all the applicants, there has not been a single incident where any of them have been involved in a situation such as Mr Hlongwane, where young women were raped.  We know for a fact that there was this conflict between the IFP and the ANC, but there has not been a single incident wherein the applicants, who we know have been operatives, and were performing their tasks stirlingly for their political organisation, there hasn't been a single incident where rape has been an issue.

MR WILLS: The only thing I can do, with respect Ms Committee person, is again refer you to Luthuli's evidence, where he says when he got to Hammarsdale, and he says this specifically, that the IFP was involved in the killing and raping, and that is, seems to be plural in the context, and that is the only evidence we have of this.  And if that is the only evidence the inference is that under the command of Mkehle this sort of thing was going on.  I don't, I'm not suggesting it was a direct order, but I'm clearly suggesting and submitting that Mkehle knew that this was going on and it was tacitly condoned.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You will recall however that Luthuli went on to explain that the situation was more criminal than anything else and that's why he had to go in there and put things in order.

MR WILLS: Yes, I, sorry.

SISI KHAMPEPE: People were attacked not because really they were perceived to be belonging to a different organisation.  All kinds of dynamics came into play and that's why in earnest and because he loved his organisation he had to go in there to stop things and put things in their political order.  That's how I understood his evidence.

MR WILLS: Yes, I understood his evidence in exactly the same way, but one must, one must look at it, let me rather say hypothetically that had Luthuli been in Mkehle's position at the time that Hlongwane had been recruited, things might have been quite different.  But if you've got a commander who clearly, the inference, on the inference of Luthuli's evidence, is allowing this type of what Luthuli referred to as ill discipline, then it's a completely different, completely different position.
	I submit that, all I can say is, it must be, it must be accepted, with respect, that Mkehle knew what they were doing and he didn't do anything about it.  And if that is the case, this instance, it wasn't that they were doing it to IFP people, in this case it is clear these people were here, represented, and there was no dispute about their political allegiances, there was no dispute about the fact that they were indeed spying, that evidence was left unchallenged, and in that context, with a bad leader, who would influence a person and would tacitly allow people to do things in a particular way, I submit that that cannot be held against Hlongwane.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You will also recall that Mr Hlongwane was asked whether he did advise Mr Mkehle about the rape, after he had conceded that he could have raped the girl before getting instructions from Mkehle, that he stated quite clearly that he didn't say anything about this issue to Mkehle.  So with regard to this issue, definitely Mkehle wouldn't have known that Hlongwane had raped.  He can't be blamed for people who have gone on a frolic of their own, under the guise of advancing the cause of a particular organisation.

MR WILLS: Yes, I think I'm not going to be able to take this matter much further, Ms Committee Member, only to say on that, that if in one's mind as I think is in the minds of the people around this table, that rape is such an important thing, then one might expect, but if it's just another act, another one of the many acts of brutality, then it's not necessarily the thing that might have been reported.  But further than that I can't take it.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the lunch adjournment now Mr Wills, until quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION