Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: I think at my age one is justified in referring to them as youths, my Lord.
	So four basically random youths, completely innocent, not posing a threat to anybody, and you never established that they were involved in any illegal activities, threatening the security of the State.  Is that correct?  In those early days.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: They were harmless, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  Completely harmless, they posed no threat whatsoever to anybody.  Not even to the then government of the country.  They posed no threat.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's right.

MR BOOYENS: Now, Mr Mbane, they were so inexperienced, that it would have been no problem for you to...and it had never been a problem for you...to report back to your handlers, is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: I would like to respond to your question properly.
	On the second or third day whilst we were there, this Chief Yamile came to us and said to me some boy from exile has a problem with his AK47.  And then I told him he must bring this man to me and when he got there he is on good terms with this group.  He came with his AK47 rifle and we realised that it was not automatic, but only shooting single shots.  We fixed this for him and when we asked him about his background, he said that he was locally trained and he was in good terms with these boys, and thereafter I went back to my commanders to report about this incident of this AK that we repaired, and the boy concerned, and this is where the whole thing started.  
	I hope you understand clearly what I am trying to say.

MR BOOYENS: When you established that these people were completely innocent and no threat to anybody, did you report that to Liebenberg?

JIMMY MBANE: As I said, I stayed two to three days with these people until Rasta came, bringing his rifle and only thereafter I reported back to say that there is somebody who brought an AK47 rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you report that these other four boys were harmless youngsters from the township who had no training?

JIMMY MBANE: I reported this after the arrival of the young man with the AK47 rifle.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But did you advise Mr Liebenberg and Mr Bellingan that the youngsters were harmless and were not trained and did not have any weapons?

JIMMY MBANE: I reported after the arrival of this gentleman with the AK47, that was my first report to my commanders your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer the question !

SISI KHAMPEPE: What was the content of your report?

JIMMY MBANE: I told them about the AK47 and the other four haven't been trained, but this one with the AK47 has been locally trained and he is in possession of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell them that the other four had no weapons?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I told them.

MR BOOYENS: And did you also tell them, look these other four people that you sent me in to make contact with are completely harmless, they are not a threat to anybody?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I told them.

MR BOOYENS: You told them that the information that these people were destabilising the situation was, must be completely wrong.

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I told them.

MR BOOYENS: And that was told to Mr Bellingan as well?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I told him because he was my commander.

MR BOOYENS: When is the first time that you have mentioned that fact that you told Mr Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg that these people were completely harmless?

JIMMY MBANE: I think I was already four days in that area, I reported after four days or so.

MR BOOYENS: The question is:  when did you tell anybody connected to this Commission for the first time that you told Mr Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg that these people were harmless, untrained and the information was completely wrong.  Is this the first time that you are telling the Commission about this now, or have you told somebody before?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, there is somebody I told at an earlier day.

MR BOOYENS: Who did you tell?

JIMMY MBANE: I told John, Bule and Fani.  I don't know their surnames.

MR BOOYENS: Are they people attached to the Truth Commission?

JIMMY MBANE: No, not in this branch.  They came to my house and they took me to Johannesburg.

MR BOOYENS: Oh, are you talking about the fact that you - are those the people who you made your statement to in Johannesburg?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can I, Mr Booyens, for the sake of completeness, just find out from Mr Mbane.  The report that you are referring to, that you made to Mr Liebenberg and Mr Bellingan, was this the telephonic report that you refer to in your evidence-in-chief yesterday?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you said you reported to both of them.  How did you do that telephonically?  Didn't you meet them?

JIMMY MBANE: I phoned them firstly, and then they would arrange a meeting place and then I met them at Sea Point or here in the Parade Shopping Centre, and that's when I reported to them.
	That is when I met them face to face, then I would report to them.

ADV MOTATA: Would it be the same day, say you make a telephone call, did you on the same day meet them wherever you met them?  After you had made the telephone call?

JIMMY MBANE: On the same day, we met on the same day.

MR BOOYENS: And on that same day, in any event, that is when you told Liebenberg and Bellingan about the fact that they were completely on the wrong track with these four people, they were nobodies.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And the fact that you told Bellingan and Liebenberg that, you reported to the investigators from the Truth Commission in Johannesburg, the people who took your statement.
	Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I did so.

MR BOOYENS: Where does that appear in your statement?

JIMMY MBANE: That's what I realise, it's been omitted.

MR BOOYENS: But we did a little exercise a little earlier, about this experience with this Mr X, who knew the importance of witnesses' statements.  How did that happen?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know how this happened.

MR BOOYENS: By the way, where in this statement do you mention Bellingan's name?   There's is one mispelled version in connection with the operation in Lesotho.  It's the only one I can remember.

JIMMY MBANE: Are you saying he's not appearing anywhere in the Cape Town operation?

MR BOOYENS: I am saying his mispelled name appears only in one paragraph in this whole 59 paragraphs that I have got.  And I will tell you now where that is.
	Bellingan's name appears nowhere in connection with the Cape Town operation at any stage.  You mention Liebenberg, you mention Coetzer, you mention a few other characters but you never mentioned Bellingan's name once.  Why not?

CHAIRPERSON: I think when you say a few others - you mentioned De Kock as being there with Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS: And the paragraph I am referring to my Lord, paragraph 46, third line.  There's a Bellinger, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that it must be Bellingan.
	So Mr Mbane, tell us why is Mr Bellingan's name never in your witness statement?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't have knowledge about that.

MR BOOYENS: Oh please!  You signed the statement, it was sworn.  Right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You are an experienced witness.  Right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You know the importance of witness statements.  Right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You confirmed the correctness of the statement before you took the oath.

JIMMY MBANE: I showed them several mistakes that appear on it.

MR BOOYENS: So, are you seriously suggesting that when you told these Truth Commission investigators that, look there are several mistakes I have mentioned Bellingan so many times and you haven't put his name in once, they didn't rectify it?  Is that what you are saying?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I told them.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you told them that you mentioned Bellingan's name repeatedly and that they had not put it in the statement?