Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS QUNTA: I take that point.
	Now Mr Sibaya, let's get to that car - that vehicle that dark vehicle, can you  tell the Committee anything else about that vehicle?

BENNET SIBAYA: This dark coloured car was facing South, the white car was facing North.  When we arrived I did not see the White car sorry, I did not see the dark coloured car, I saw the car with the Transkei registration.  I was looking for the place that I was looking for, then I went into the house, then I saw the dark coloured car when I was coming back as there were people alighting from that car going towards the white car.

MS QUNTA: Now, did you notice the colour of the vehicle or the registration number of the vehicle?

BENNET SIBAYA: I memorised it.

MS QUNTA: Of the dark vehicle?

BENNET SIBAYA: No, I memorised the number of the white vehicle.  The white car I thought belonged to soldiers.

JUDGE WILSON: The white car belonged to soldiers, is that what you're saying?

BENNET SIBAYA: It is the dark car that I thought belonged to soldiers because they were fetching their arms from the dark car running towards the white car.

MS QUNTA: Now Mr Sibaya, did the dark car have number plates?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was far from me, I did not get close to it.

MS QUNTA: But I think you told us that it was 20 metres from you - In your statement you said it was about 20 metres away.  Is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: That could be so, that could be the distance but it was further from the white car.

MS QUNTA: Now fine, now what I'm asking you is Mr Sibaya, did the dark car have registration numbers?

BENNET SIBAYA: I did not get close to the dark car.

MS QUNTA: Now Mr Sibaya, you see this vehicle behind, there are people who come out of that vehicle with weapons according to you and they get into a white car, the white car dives away - you say in your statement that you think an offence may be committed or may have been committed or may be about to be committed.

BENNET SIBAYA: It's not what I thought, it is what I saw.  I saw them fetching weapons from the one car to the other, they could have been stealing them.  It could have been that the other car did not belong to them - I picked up the paper and I took it to the police.

MS QUNTA: Now when you see this the car is stationery, this vehicle is - according to your evidence, the vehicle is stationery, it is stationery after the white vehicle had left and you remain after the white vehicle has left but you do not go to that dark vehicle to take it's registration numbers.

BENNET SIBAYA: What was I going to do to the dark car, it was going - this whole thing was going to involve me as well as a culprit, if I went there I would have been found guilty as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Just be careful, that's a very, very important question, can you thing of a better reason than the one you've given as to why you didn't go to this other car?

BENNET SIBAYA: We were afraid by then, we did not even want to move until they had left altogether, we just wanted to get away from that place.

MS QUNTA: But according to your evidence, after the white vehicle left you were still there and the dark vehicle was still stationery.  If you felt that there was something going wrong there - I want to put it to you that any reasonable person would go up to the white - the dark vehicle and take that registration number as well.

BENNET SIBAYA: I already had evidence because I had memorised the registration plate of the other car, what else did I want - would I have wanted?  It is only the police who could have helped me because if you memorise somebody's registration number, it's as good as having the owner's name.

MS QUNTA: I will leave that issue now.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I want to ask you something, it you'd gone up to that dark car you could have seen if the window had been broken, if the door had been broken, if there were signs that it had been broken into, which was something important to tell the police when you went to them.  Why didn't you go?

BENNET SIBAYA: Please listen to me carefully, the one man said to the other: "You have forgotten your cap in the other car but if they had come back - think carefully, if they had come back to fetch the cap, what would have happened to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's not talk about: "If they had come back", we are talking about what was happening still at the time, do you understand?

JUDGE WILSON: Have you forgotten that you say in your statement that the other men ran away before the white car left?

BENNET SIBAYA: These are three men, the two went into the car, the one ran away.  I - we had to be sure that they had all gone, then we would leave after that.  We were scared at that point.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Sibaya please think carefully, in your statement you didn't say: "These were three men, two got into the car and one ran away", what you said is at paragraph 6
"One of the other four approaching the white car got in at the left back door, the other three men ran away towards the NY115".
You said there were five men who came from the dark car, have you forgotten that?

BENNET SIBAYA: Two men went into the car and three did not go in.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, if you suspected that these people had been stealing from that dark car, surely it was important for you to go to see about this dark car and see whether it had been broken into because you had made up your mind you were going to report to the police, is that not so?

BENNET SIBAYA: I had enough evidence, the police would have gone after them on the basis of the registration number I had.

JUDGE WILSON: You are an observer of a scene and I can't understand about you having enough evidence, you are an observer of the scene and at that time you're not thinking about evidence that was going to be put before anybody, you were seeing a picture and the question is that part of the picture was the presence of this blue car.  	You didn't go to this and the reason for not going to this is because you said you had evidence, now that answer about you having evidence to me betrays something.  It means that you're thinking about evidence and not about what was actually happening before your eyes.

BENNET SIBAYA: Please listen Sir, if you take somebody's registration number, give them the colour - you give that to the police, the police are going to go after that man and find them.  The police will go after the owner of the car - I was sure about that.  I sure at the time that these people was not going injure anyone as I was going to the police with the evidence I had.

ADV SANDI: Mr Sibaya, is that to say that you were only interested in the white car and not the blue car?

BENNET SIBAYA: I was interested in the white car running away with the arms to murder people, the darker coloured car was just stationery - not going anywhere.

JUDGE WILSON: So you thought - the white car you now say was running away with arms to murder people?

BENNET SIBAYA: Those were young people, if young people steal arms from a soldier's car they're going to harm somebody, this is why I quickly went to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed please.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibia - Sibaya, I beg your pardon, when - how did you get to see the registration number of the white vehicle?

BENNET SIBAYA: When it drove off the lights were not on, when it was turning at the corner the man had to apply brakes and the lights went on - that's how I saw the registration.

MS QUNTA: Now, Mr Sibaya, brake lights go on for a fraction of a second and I want to put it to you that it is not believable that you could see those lights in that fraction of time - then not only memorise those - that registration number, with out writing it down because your evidence is that you did not write it down, and remember it five days later.  Listen to me Mr Sibaya - five days later, I want to put it to you that it is unbelievable.