Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes it was after, I was not arrested on the same date because the Sebokeng incident took place on the 15th and I was only arrested in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed and I understand your evidence, once you'd been tortured the police wanted you to tell them the role that you had played in the Sebokeng attacks?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, did they also enquire from you about the role that you played in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am the one who ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You told the police that you were also involved in the Boipatong matter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not inform them.

CHAIRPERSON: And they didn't ask you about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, they did not ask me.  The people who were investigating the Sebokeng issue only enquired about that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: No but who raised the Boipatong matter with you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Peens and them in Vereeniging.  Please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: What was said about Boipatong, what did the police say to you about Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They said if I mentioned their names and implicated them in the Boipatong matter they would kill me.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that again and speak loudly?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They said if I ever tried to divulge information about Boipatong they would kill me, they said in Vereeniging.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes so they threatened to kill you if you mentioned what happened in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did the Boipatong issue come up?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They knew that I was an IFP member staying at KwaMadala Hostel and they knew people like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LOWIES: So do I understand you correctly, you are being tortured to go and point places out.  Whilst this is going on you are tortured by other police not to tell about the Boipatong Massacre or not?

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know what you want me to say because I already stated that I was tortured by police, Captain Havenga and I did not discuss the Boipatong issue with those people, I do not understand what you are asking me about.

MR LOWIES: No, everything you will recall started off by you saying you were tortured by Peens and Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they did torture me at Vereeniging Police Station.  The people who tortured me before and who insisted that I take them to the spots where I had killed or shot at people were Captain Havenga and others.

MR LOWIES: Now did they torture you at the same place and the same time more or less, being Vereeniging and being the same time whilst you are held at Vereeniging, same period of time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Havenga and them would take me and torture me at Hoorkop Police Station.  Chaka and Peens tortured me at Vereeniging Police Station.

MR LOWIES: But everything started off by my wanting to know why were you taken to Vereeniging Police Station and I thought it was to point places out as well, am I wrong in that perception?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know why I was transferred to these many police stations, I do not know why I was being taken to all these police stations.

MR LOWIES: Now Mr Nosenga, in the drive by shootings, I think those were the Boipatong matters, sorry my mistake, the Sebokeng matters, were there any policemen involved in those?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember the police being involved in that, we were the people who shot at the people.  I do not remember the police being present on that occasion, it was us who went out and shot at these people in Sebokeng.  You have asked me this question before.

MR LOWIES: Why did you go out shooting ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why were the police not there, why did they go out shooting?  I mean he says "we from the hostel went out to shoot, I don't recall seeing the police."?  Now what is the question?

MR LOWIES: The part that he didn't see the police I didn't hear so I thought my question's clear.  But I can rephrase it.
	Now why did you go out to shoot the people at Sebokeng.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The command was issued by Prince Zulu.

MR LOWIES: Why did he say so, do you know, what was his reason, what did he say?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At that point we had been driven out of the township therefore we were residing at the hostel, that is why we had to go out and attack.

MR LOWIES: Did you at that stage know about police involvement in these drive by shootings or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: In every township there were police patrols and if there were gunshots being fired they would hear about it, they would know that people were being shot at.

MR LOWIES: Maybe I should rephrase then.  Do you allege police complicity in the drive by shootings for which you were convicted?

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, I don't know if I'm not hearing him correctly, did he say that they would drive - which area are you referring to?  Sebokeng?

MR LOWIES: Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what is the answer Mr Nosenga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I understand his question.  My response is in every township there would be police present but what I'm saying is that it was we as residents of the hostel who went out to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: I think his question was directed at establishing whether the police also took part in the shooting at Sebokeng.  That's what you wanted to find out?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I do not remember that.

MR LOWIES: And if I talk about drive by shootings the cases on which you were convicted were drive by shootings, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: So in all those cases where you were involved, to your knowledge there was no police involved, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did state before that when we went out to shoot I did not see any policemen.  We drove by the police station on the way back to the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Did they assist you in the drive by shootings in any manner, did they incite you to do so in any manner?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, with regards to the Sebokeng drive by shooting they were not involved but they were implicated in many instances in the Vaal Triangle.

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that, what he wants to find out is, we know that they did not take part in the shooting in Sebokeng when you were there, but what he wants to find out is to your knowledge and if you don't know, you say so, to your knowledge did the police assist you in connection with the shooting in Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't remember.

MR LOWIES: But if they did you would have known because it's something extraordinary, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I would have known if they had played a role.

MR LOWIES: So now we can deduct they did not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: With regards to Sebokeng they did not take part.

MR LOWIES: Were you a friend of Mr Victor Kezwa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Were you part of his gang?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Was Kezwa involved in the drive by shootings, the ones for which you were convicted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: You did not tell the police he was involved, did you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was afraid to say so because the way police who worked in collusion with Inkatha, Victor Kezwa was known and he never used to spend time in prison, he would be arrested and released later so I only mentioned the others about the ...(indistinct).

MR LOWIES: So despite, now let me ask you this, did the police torture you to say who were involved in the drive by shootings with you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they questioned me on who had been with me.  It was Captain Havenga and others who were involved in torturing me.