Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

MR BOTMA: Getting back to the point before you reached this truck did you also inform your co-accused about the reason for the mission? What you were supposed to go and do there?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: As a commander I had to tell him.

MR BOTMA: And your instruction to him was that you must capture Mike Meyers and bring him to Thanduxolo. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: And you told him that only when he is resisting and putting your lives in danger that he must be shot, only at such a stage, is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes he is a soldier, he knows that.

MR BOTMA: Did you tell him, was the question?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: So his instruction at that point in time was that by all means you must try to take him to Thanduxolo without killing him. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: Now after the shooting when Donne was shot Mike Meyers jumped out of the vehicle and he ran towards the back. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: What did you do?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: After he tried to run away I, before I got to the back of the truck there was a sound. And the people who were working in the truck also were running away. When I got to the other side my co-accused was there and had shot the man. I then said he must go into the other side of the truck and we got in and we left.

MR BOTMA: Is it correct that when the shot or shots were fired that all the people who were surrounding the truck ran away back to their houses and back into the locality?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes that is true.

MR BOTMA: So at that point in time nobody from the locality were in your immediate vicinity or near to you, correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It could happen that they were there but I did not take note of any such people because people were all dispersing, trying to run away.

MR BOTMA: Trying to run away or have they already run away from the scene?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: They started running away after the first bang.

MR BOTMA: And then after the second shot they were already away from the scene?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I could say that after the second bang then people started running into their houses. After the first sound I do not think people were able to say whether it was a pistol or not because the first sound was not too loud. They ran away.

MR BOTMA: The point I an driving at is at the time after the second shot was fired there was nobody at the scene except yourself, your co-accused, Mike and Donne. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: So you had ample time to examine Mike and to see how serious his injuries were?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: The mission was not to examine Mike. He was shot, the entire mission was messed up. We were not able to take him with. I then had to explain to my regional commander how the operation went. The order was to take Mike. Unfortunately he got shot. After he got shot we could not examine him. As to whether he would cope or survive until we got to Thanduxolo. It is not like a regular army where you would kidnap the person in whatever state they are. In a guerilla warfare you use initiative. We could not take Mike along. Even our commander would perceive us as being stupid if we had taken him along in that state.

MR LAX: Can I just check something? When I heard him answering he seemed to be agreeing with the question but then explaining he said: "Yes but," and then he went into the explanation. Was that correct? Because that was not interpreted. Just help me there if you right?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I think I am getting a bit confused. Could the question then be repeated?

MR BOTMA: And before I repeat the question I would like you please kindly keep your answers shorter. You giving us long explanations without answering the questions. The question was; you had ample time to examine Mike after the shooting, is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We only had enough time to retreat and not to examine him.

MR BOTMA: What was preventing you from examining him?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Because the operation did not go as planned. He ended up getting shot. That is what prevented us from taking him with us.

MR BOTMA: With due respect that is not an answer to that question. Was there anything preventing you from examining him at that point in time?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes because he was shot we were then not able to take him with, having been shot. That prevented us from taking him with. He was not well.

MR LAX: So instead you took his daughter who was shot and also not well. Where is the sense in that? And she was not even your target.

ADV SANDI: She was unconscious and groaning according to your evidence.

MR LAX: Didn't you expect Mandla to be just as angry with you for doing that as you said he would have been if you had taken Mike Meyers?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: This is what happened, Donne was already in the truck. She was shot in the truck, she was unconscious. After Mike had been shot we immediately got into the truck with my co-accused with Donne in the truck. When we got to Thanduxolo I briefed him, gave him a report as to how the operation went.

MR LAX: Why didn't you just take (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You apparently find it impossible to answer questions. He goes on and on repeating the same story. Would you listen to the question and answer the question please?

MR LAX: I am going to move on to just one last question in this issue. You have told us there was nobody around you at that point, everyone had run away. There was no immediate danger to you at that point in time. You have conceded that. Now why don't you just pick her up and take her out of the car and put her down and drive away? Would have taken a few seconds to do. Just leave her behind. She is no use to you. You have admitted that.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Is your question that why didn't you leave Donne behind?

MR LAX: Precisely.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: This all happened quickly. We did not plan to leave with Donne. Because she was already inside the truck we left immediately, we were not able to drop her off. The point of whether there were people around or there were people far off we would have gotten a chance to drop her off, it would have been tricky. What we thought at the time is that we should retreat immediately because the operation did not go according to plan. The plan was such that we were not to shoot anyone and nobody around should know what was happening. Unfortunately it did not go as planned and that is how things ended up.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you take her with you because she was still in the truck and at that stage was not badly injured? She in fact had apparently an injury to her hand.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Taking Donne with was not within our plans. When I got into the truck she was there. I did not get a chance to drop her off. We then just took off with her.

MR LAX: Just one last question. Who drove the truck?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: My co-accused.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR BOTMA: My (...indistinct) evidence is that before the time you decided to meet each other at the Mbashe bridge, is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: Any reason for meeting at that specific place and not in Adishua or any other place?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: This place was selected by Thanduxolo. We could not dispute that with him or suggest another place.

MR BOTMA: Did you know where the spot was when he gave you instruction before the time?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: My co-accused is familiar with the place. He knows the place.

MR BOTMA: Was your co-accused involved in this planning in this meeting or when it was discussed to meet at a specific place, was he involved in that?