Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MR KNIGHT: I just want to just return to your capacity acting under the orders of Captain Bra Mos at the time that the order was given to shoot. Did you regard that as a lawful order given to you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I saw it lawful because Bra Mos had told me, the same as the work we were supposed to come and do.

MR KNIGHT: So you regarded it was a lawful order?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I cannot dispute that.

MR KNIGHT: At the time were you on duty with the South African Police?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes correct.

MR KNIGHT: Were you acting in the course and scope of your employment with the South African Police?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I was following it.

MR KNIGHT: Now I just want to refer you to paragraph 10a of Annexure E. It is stated there that Batandwa Ndondo was suspected of being an ANC terrorist and he was to be abducted and brought back to the Republic of South Africa for interrogation and possible recruitment as an askaris. Now my question is; recruitment as an askaris was this something that was pre-planned at Elliot before you left or was it something that would normally take place when a trained terrorist was captured?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I do not understand the question.

MR KNIGHT: Let me put it to you in another way. If a trained terrorist was captured by yourselves would you in the normal course attempt to make that person an askaris? To recruit him as an askaris?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes it used to happen.

MR KNIGHT: Yes. So the intention of abducting or let me put it this way or to bring into South Africa to be handed to the police was in fact for the purpose of him being interrogated. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is so.

MR KNIGHT: The security police wanted information from Ndondo. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: True.

CHAIRPERSON: Who wanted information from the deceased?

MR KNIGHT: The security police, the South African security police. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me clarify this. I understood you to say earlier on that you did not know what was to become of the deceased. Bra Mos was going to make the decision as the leader of your group. Did you not tell us that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: But now are you now saying that the purpose of going to the deceased was to abduct him, return him to South Africa for the purposes of being interrogated by the South African security branch?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: What I will say that the security branch of South Africa we were united with Transkei we would work with the Transkei police. It was not only going to be South Africa police.

CHAIRPERSON: But I got the impression when you testified earlier on that all you knew was that there was an ANC operative who was operating in Nxala and that you are going to assist to apprehend that person. What was to become of that person whilst he was arrested it was going to be the decision of Bra Mos. But I understand you now as saying that the reason why you went to the deceased in the first place was to abduct him so that you can return him to the Republic of South Africa for interrogation and possible recruitment. Do you understand the problem that I am trying to outline to you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I see it but I was talking in relation to the time we were supposed to come and fetch him. That small time before I alighted, it was only that small time. Bra Mos would tell us where are supposed to find that person. Whether to go and phone or whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: And eventually who were you going to phone?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: We would have phoned ultimately the one who was leading Dandala and others here in Transkei and that the others on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Phone them and say what to them?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Phone them and tell them that we found this person and they must tell us what we must do with this person.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you didn't know what you were supposed to do with him?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No our job was just to go and fetch him.

CHAIRPERSON: You were to arrest the deceased and take him where?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: To Barkley East.

CHAIRPERSON: And hand him over? To the Transkei security branch there?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: We would fetch him from there and take him to Barkley East to that police station there. Most times we met there with the Transkeian police there we would meet there ordinarily. Many times we would meet there with the Transkeian police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now when were you going to take him to South Africa?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: At the time we found him we tried to phone and see where we were supposed to take that person and quickly take that person to wherever we were directed.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not too sure I am with you. You see while you were giving your evidence here you told us what was going to happen to the deceased that was going to be decided by Mos. Didn't you say that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: And now in this statement that was just read to you I gather that what you were told to do was to go there to the Transkei and abduct the deceased and come back with him to the Republic of South Africa in order to interrogate him and also to try and recruit him in your organisation.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I disagree with that. It is clear I did not hear the question properly. I heard that question saying does it ever happen that when we find a person we try to recruit them to change them into our way of thinking and acting. Not in relation to this. As to whether does it ever happen for us to try and recruit him to correctly communicate and cooperate with us. Not this one.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left Vlakplaas to Barkley East did you know what you were going to do at Barkley East?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: We did not know when we left Vlakplaas what we would be going to do there.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you going to be given further orders once you arrive at Barkley East?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told perhaps that you are going there to assist the security branch in the Transkei in order to identify and arrest people who were suspected of being terrorists?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes when we got to Barkley East that is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Were those the kind of broad instructions that you were given at Vlakplaas?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No that instruction we got at Barkley East.

CHAIRPERSON: Now and who gave you those instructions?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: You see when we got to Barkley East we got a white man there who has always been there who was moving with Dandala and others. And then a white man we were moving with and then an officer, Bra Mos who then gave us names of people here in Transkei. Saying here we are supposed to deal with these people, here are the photo's and so on, whatever photo's we are given.

CHAIRPERSON: Were those the people that Transkei security branch were looking for?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what were you instructed to do about those persons?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: We were instructed to come and help the Transkei police to find those persons. Because they are the people who are responsible for trouble here in Transkei. To help them.

CHAIRPERSON: Once these persons have been captured were you told what is going to happen to them?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: If we found those persons it would be determined what their activities are. It was the officers who were supposed to deal with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the officers? Which officers were those now? Were those the officers who gave you the instructions at Barkley East?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It is the ones who are supposed to deal then with those people further.

CHAIRPERSON: These officers were then going to decide what was to become of these persons that you have captured?