Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We sat down and discussed.  At that time, I was not employed.  I already had problems, financial and otherwise and Botha asked the first question and it was am I in need of money and I said yes, I am in need of money.  He said there is some money available if we are so much in need of money and he said he will try to get us do something so we can get some money.
 There is somebody that has to be killed, then we can be able to have money.  That shocked me a great deal because I had never encountered such a deal before.  And Botha went on and said if we really needed money, he will go on to see the person who wanted somebody killed, to tell the person about us.

MR MILLER: Was a sum of money mentioned?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, the first time we were discussing, he never mentioned the sum of the money.

MR MILLER: Okay, did you then go and meet this person?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MILLER: Can you tell us about it?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We went with Botha and Mbatha himself.  As we were on the way going to show us the place where the person is, we went towards Orlando.  I don't know that area quite well and I never used to frequent that area.
 We went there, we got to a certain house, we got inside and there was an quite elderly lady and they greeted each other with Botha.  One could tell that they are quite used to each other.
 We got inside and we sat down.  We saw this lady, Mrs Mandela.  I did not know her then.  I used to see her on the newspapers and television, but I did not know her.  We greeted one another and we sat down.
 Botha started the matter and said these are the people who I have told you about that they could carry the mission - I have asked them if they could.  We were also asked if we could, we did not answer, we did not respond for quite some time.
 As the conversation went on, Botha said we shall feel free and be relaxed, there is no problem absolutely and this lady said if we could do that, she will pay us an amount of R20 000-00.

MR MILLER: Sorry, can I just clarify a couple of things, you say that the first time you went inside this house you met an elderly lady.  That is what you said, right?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MILLER: And, I assume that was not Mrs Mandela?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.

MR MILLER: So, did this elderly lady take you to meet Mrs Mandela?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MILLER: I see.  Go on, so you say you were offered an amount of R20 000-00.  Was that R20 000-000 each or R20 000-00 for both?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, we were not given that amount yet, because we have not yet carried out the mission.

MR MILLER: Yes, but what was the offer, was it R20 000-00 each or R20 000-000 for both of you?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We were all promised R20 000-00.

MR MILLER: Each?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Collectively.

MR MILLER: Yes, go on.  You were offered the money.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We started discussing about this issue of money and she said if we carry out the mission quite successfully, that is what we will get.
 And she wanted to find out if we had all the details and we understood the whole thing, task that we had to carry out.   We said yes, we were already told about that.  As I was unemployed, this was quite attractive to me.

MR MILLER: Sorry, was there some discussion about the money, about the manner in which it would be paid, whether it would be paid afterwards, or before, or partly before or whatever?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Around the money discussion, we were supposed to go.  When we were discussing, we discussed about R10 000-00 first before we carried on the mission and the balance when we were done.

MR MILLER: And what was the reply?  Did Mrs Mandela agree to that or not?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.  She did not agree to that.

MR MILLER: So you say she wanted to know if you know the details of the job you had to do?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MILLER: Yes, and then?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Because we did not agree about that money issue, we left and Botha and Swala knew each other very well and they were quite comfortable and trusted the whole thing, that we could still go on and carry the mission and come back and we will get paid.  I also trusted Botha.

MR MILLER: Was anything said about a firearm?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.  I am the one who asked about the firearm and I wanted to know as to where we would get the firearm.

MR MILLER: Yes?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Botha said I shall be free, there is a firearm available, that is not a problem.

MR MILLER: I see.  Now, how were you supposed to identify the person you were going to kill?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We first discussed the firearm issue, before we even asked further questions.  We said we will go back and discuss with the person who will show us the target.   And we felt we shall see the person and we were told that we should not be worried about this, there is somebody in place who will show us the right person to shoot.

MR MILLER: So you then went home, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR MILLER: And early the next morning Botha came to fetch you again and you returned to Mrs Mandela's house?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is true.

MR MILLER: And what happened on this occasion?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We were driving a car and we parked outside.  I am not quite familiar with the area and when we got there, he got inside and he was also with him as some small boy and that is the one that was going to show us the place in Rockville.  We got inside the car and we drove off and Mr Swala showed signs that he was so much in a hurry, he had to return, go back and we were dropped in Dube and he went back and we walked, now three of us, with that boy.
 We got to a certain house, white in colour.  There was a Cressida parked outside, yellow Cressida.  We got inside.  Fortunately as we were still sitting in the waiting room, we saw a gentleman coming out and he started stretching himself like this.
 And this small boy showed us the person and said this is the person and said this is the right person and we thanked him.
 We parted ways.

MR MILLER: Just a couple of questions.  Do you know who this small boy was?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I did not know his name, because we did not talk much.  I am not a person who talks a lot.

MR MILLER: Have you since found out who it is?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, subsequently I found out he was Cebekhulu.

MR MILLER: And this target, the man that came and stretched next to the car, who was he?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I found out later that he was Asvat, after he was shot.  He had white safari's on.  He was just leaving one room from the building to another, that is when we saw him.

MR MILLER: So what happened after this, after Dr Asvat was pointed out to you, what happened next?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: He was shot after that.

MR MILLER: No, just let's take it slowly.   You returned to the hostel after that, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: You returned to the hostel, Mzamomhle hostel after that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, we went back to the hostel in Mzamomhle.

MR MILLER: And then after a while Botha arrived, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, after a while Botha arrived.

MR MILLER: And what happened, was there a conversation, a discussion?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, we discussed with Botha and Botha said everything is in place and that thing is ready and he gave us the firearm.  He gave it to me myself, that is the first firearm, short like this.

MR MILLER: Was it a 9 mm?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I wouldn't know because I don't know how to differentiate the guns.  I don't know which kind of a gun is that and so on.

MR MILLER: By the way, where is Botha, do you know?