Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: The maxi taxi never moved around, it just took us straight to where we were going, then we alighted from the maxi taxi and proceeded to where we were going but we did not require the driver to drop us off at the gate because we did not want him to see where we were going so he dropped us off and we went around the corner.

ADV MOTATA: So this moving around in your affidavit it's wrong, the second sentence?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes this is a mistake, it never actually moved around.  There probably was a misunderstanding between myself and the person who transcribed the statement.

ADV MOTATA: And when you were testifying about paragraph 15, there's something I missed, I just want to fill in, that's my last question.  You say "myself and Monde went to open a door and a white person" - what was the sex of this white person?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It was a male.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Nkabinde you say in your affidavit, I refer you yet again to your affidavit, paragraph 16.  You say that you came back in both cars.  You went with Monde in the Mercedes and the other three went in the Toyota.  You say: 
"I slept on the way to Transkei but I woke up in Bloemfontein and discovered that the other three, those were the ones in the Toyota, were in our car."
What happened to the Toyota?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: When I asked my commander, my commander used the phone in Bloemfontein and I wanted to find out as to where the members were, he told me that the car was left in the Free State because there were other cadres who wanted to make use of the car at the Free State so he was phoning those particular cadres to tell them that he had left the car at a certain spot, they should pick it up.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a code name or a contact name?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your code name.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: My name was Tami.

CHAIRPERSON: And Monde?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Monde was Luka.

CHAIRPERSON: And any of the other three that went with on the 16th and 18th January at Parkview and Parktown North, did they have any code name?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: They referred to them with the very same names that I mentioned here in the affidavit, I do not know their code names.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to get something clear.  Are you saying that the five of you were a unit?  When I mean a unit, an APLA unit?  A repossession unit?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I've already pointed it out that I did not know the three members.  I knew Monde and myself as members of the APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Because isn't it so that with the units, the units were the group of people who usually operated together and knew each other, even if they didn't know each other's real names, they knew each other's combat names, they had a commander, they usually had a deputy commander, they were usually four maybe going up to six in number depending on the unit, sometimes even three, but they operated as a team?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct but I knew them by those names, as to whether these were combat names or their real names, these people were brought to me by the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who Monde reported to?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I think he was reporting to his own commander but I don't know who his commander was.

CHAIRPERSON: Now as you sit here today, those other three persons, Thabang, Mofokeng and Kopane, do you know whether they are members of - or that they were members of APLA at that time today, your present knowledge?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I've already explained that I do not know the other three.  They were brought to me by Monde.  They were, probably they could have been potential recruits or whatever, I don't know, I think Monde could answer that question better.

CHAIRPERSON: But weren't you co-accused in a trial, didn't you have to spend a great deal in each other's company during the course of the trial?  I'm asking as you sit here now, didn't you speak about it, didn't you ask them whether they were APLA members after the event?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: The person who was close to me was Mike Mofokeng who told me that he was also a member and he was going to be trained in the Transkei when we were crossing into Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Just a single aspect, Mr Chairperson.
	You say that the Toyota which was taken from the Stantons was left somewhere so that another unit could make use of it, did I understand you correctly?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes my commander was saying that as he was speaking on the phone when he told them that the car had been parked at a certain spot and they had to go and pick the car up.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you recall the spot?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: According to what I hear because I was asleep in the car but I think they left it under a certain bridge, according to the description that he gave over the phone, he described a certain bridge and that he had left the car under the bridge.  I think it was in the Free State.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, my instructions are, that motor car was left at one of the toll plazas, unlocked with the keys on the roof.  Can you comment on that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I've already told you that I was asleep at that time.  I only heard that when my commander was speaking to the people who he was speaking to over the phone.  I never saw the car being parked there.

MR VAN DEN BERG: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Nkabinde, that concludes your testimony.  Thank you, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment, I see it's just before 1 o'clock, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn for the lunch adjournment and try to reconvene as soon as possible.  I won't make it for a specific time but as soon as we're ready after if we could recommence, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I've talked to the legal representative of the victims, I think they wanted the applicant again.  There's something I want to put, that's why I've called him back so you can enquire from him?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, over the lunch interval we were handed a copy of the applicant's criminal record which I want to submit does not tie in with what he has told this Committee and I would like a chance to recall him to put the contents of his criminal record to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may go ahead.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you.
RECALL OF NKOSINATHI NKABINDE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkabinde, just to inform you, you're still under your former oath?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: (s.u.o.)

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, when you returned to South Africa on your version, when you returned to South Africa having received training in Tanzania, were you armed?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: No we were not armed.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You were not armed.  I have before me the contents of your criminal record and I want to put the contents to you.
	Mr Chairperson, I have copies of the record which I'd like to hand up.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection?  This will be Exhibit C.

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Exhibit C.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, can I refer you to paragraph 4 of Exhibit A?  You say there
"I came back in 1978 and I was arrested during the riots and released in 1981.  In 1983 I was arrested for armed repossession and was sentenced to fourteen years imprisonment."
Do you recall that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.