Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It a deniable weapon.  If something would happen and for some reason an informer/agent or something needed a weapon, that could be given to him, or in the case of someone being wrongfully shot, that weapon could be left with that person to make it appear as if they had been armed.

MR VISSER: Yes.  That is what you mean by the phrase throw away?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: All right.  Having stopped, I am sorry, perhaps I should just ask you this, was Mr Bhila handcuffed?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, Mr Bhila was handcuffed and I recall his hands were cuffed behind his back.

MR VISSER: All right.  Having stopped, taken him out, escorted him, having escorted him to the edge of the cliff, in your own words tell the Committee what transpired?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I initially couldn't remember what happened then, but in consultation ...

MR VISSER: I am sorry, I didn't quite follow what you have just said, you naturally what?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I previously couldn't remember in what sequence the events took place, but subsequently learnt that Mr Bhila was made to sit or squad down at the edge of the cliff, whereafter Mr McCarter shot him in the head.
	When he fell down, next to the edge of the cliff, I then shot him.

MR VISSER: If you just stop there for a moment.  At page 6 you said the following in Exhibit B, in the middle of the page Mr Chairman.  I think the man was made to lay down at the edge of this cliff.  Why did you say that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection of when I shot him, was that he was laying down.

MR VISSER: Yes, well we know that that must have been so in spite of what Mr Bosch says.
	Is that the reason why your recollection is that he was made to lay down?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.  I don't know whether I asked you this, was he still handcuffed when you shot him?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: He was still handcuffed as I recall.

MR VISSER: Were the handcuffs removed after you had shot him?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Mr Visser, may I just interrupt again.  You led the earlier evidence when you asked him what happened, and Mr Rosslee responded that he couldn't remember, but in consultation he learnt that the man was made to sit.  Sorry, I want to know whether he is giving secondhand evidence of his colleagues or is he giving evidence according to his memory?
	Please, to please stick to the memory Mr Rosslee.  Let me ask you, when you say in consultation you learnt, did that change your memory or do you simply accept the version of others?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I accept what I heard subsequently, supporting or adding to what I remembered.

MR MALAN: Was he made to sit down, or was he made to lay down?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I do not remember if he was sitting or laying, I do remember that when I shot him, he was laying down.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We have just been given a bundle, shall we call this Exhibit F.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the evidence which is now going to follow, is certainly going to cause a lot of anguish.  Please if you feel that we should take an adjournment, would you please tell me.  I don't want to cause more anguish than is strictly necessary Mr Chairman, but at the end of the day, we are going to have to lead this evidence any way.
	Perhaps Mr Chairman, it might be an idea just for five minutes, if there could be some consolation, consoling, we might be able to proceed then.  I certainly don't want to give the impression of being insensitive to the emotions of the people concerned.  All right, get it behind us, all right Mr Chairman.
	We will prefer to go on and get it behind us.  By the time that Mr Bhila was laying on the ground, when you shot him, and I am asking you to speculate in the interest of full disclosure, do you believe that Mr Bhila was already dead or do you believe that he was still alive?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.  All right, now, in your affidavit in support of your application, you made the statement, I then shot the suspect plus minus seven times in the head.  Would you care to explain that please in the light of Mr McCarter's evidence that according to his recollection, you shot him once?  I am sorry and perhaps Mr Chairman, I may immediate tell you that Mr Wasserman who is present, will give evidence and perhaps it is relevant to put this now so that the witness can deal with it, that as far as his recollection goes, you might have shot him the second time, once or twice.
	So, we've got McCarter saying once, Wasserman is going to say once or twice, and you are saying seven times.  Will you please discuss that issue?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, when I put in this application, my recollection was that the pistol had jammed after the first shot and I had cocked it a number of times to clear the jam.  My recollection was that the slide was locked back and I could only surmise or think at that stage that I had emptied the pistol by firing those shots.

MR VISSER: All right, let's just make this clear.  Before you shot the first shot, you had the pistol and it had a magazine and it had rounds of ammunition in it?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: How many rounds of ammunition would that pistol take to fill the magazine?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Seven rounds would be standard.

MR VISSER: Yes.  When you had finished, do you have an independent recollection how many rounds were left in the pistol?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I can remember clearly that the slide was locked back, in other words the pistol was empty.

MR VISSER: Was empty?  How would the slide of a pistol for those who don't know firearms, be kicked back?  By what impulse is it kicked back?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: The last round would kick it back, and the magazine follow, it would come up and lock the slide open.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Is it the recoil of the round of the ammunition that causes the action to move backwards?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And is that the best explanation that you can offer today as to why you mentioned seven rounds in your application?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, yes, as I said I can recall firing the first shot, wracking the slide, or cocking the slide a couple of times.  I have no memory or cannot recall, firing a second shot.
	I do recall the weapon being locked open Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.  Do you recall who threw the body of Mr Bhila over the cliff?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember who threw the body over the cliff.

MR MALAN: May I just interrupt again here, just getting back to your recollection of the pistol having jammed?
	Share that with us again.  You said it jammed and you had to cock it several times.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.  I fired, as I recall, I fired a round, the pistol jammed and I cocked it a number of times to clear the jam.

MR MALAN: And kept on shooting?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall firing another shot after that.  I recall the pistol being locked back, locked open afterwards.

MR MALAN: Did you then believe that you had fired all the shots, is that what you are telling us?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No.  My assumption would be when the pistol was empty, I don't know how many shots I fired.  I remembered firing one shot and I obviously ejected a number of rounds while trying to clear the jam Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Before going to this spot, did you check how many rounds of ammunition you had in your pistol?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember actually having checked the magazine, I just know that those pistols carry seven rounds in the magazine.

ADV SIGODI: So you never checked it when you left from the shooting range, you never checked your pistols?