Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, my next witness is Mr Potwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Page?

MR OBOSE: He is at page 37 to 43 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, yes.  Mr Potwana, can you state your full names for the record please.

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Kayaletu  Nuan Potwana.

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated.  Yes, Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  What rank do you hold Mr Potwana in the South African Police Services?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I am an Inspector.

MR OBOSE: In 1994, March, what rank were you holding?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I was an Inspector.

MR OBOSE: Attached to which Police station?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: NU1 Police station in Mdantsane.

MR OBOSE: Is it correct that then Warrant Officers were called to Bisho Police College by Gen Nqoya, on the 22nd of March?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: You attended this meeting?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: No, I was working in court, I was on court order on that particular day.

MR OBOSE: Did you at any stage go to Bisho College that day?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, I did.

MR OBOSE: At what time did you get there?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I arrived at about six o'clock in the evening.

MR OBOSE: What was going on?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: The hall was full and the Policemen there were singing freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: And slogans?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Did you join in?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, I did.

MR OBOSE: By doing what?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I sang.

MR OBOSE: Did you get inside the hall or you were outside?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, I was getting in and coming out, but I managed to get inside.

MR OBOSE: Did you participate in this meeting by performing a certain task, etc?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, I participated.

MR OBOSE: What did you do?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I went to fetch Colonel Mfene and Qala.

MR OBOSE: What rank was Qala?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I think he was a Major at the time.

MR OBOSE: Yes?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: And Major Fumanise.

MR OBOSE: Is that all?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I just forgot the other one.  Maybe I will remember as time goes on.

MR OBOSE: So you fetched about five Officers in all?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Why?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I was told that they were needed in the hall.

MR OBOSE: For what purpose?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: They said all the Police should be together in the hall.

MR OBOSE: Why did you, I am talking about yourself now, why did you fetch only the Officers?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I went to fetch them because they were needed in the hall.  They were in their houses, so I had to fetch them.

MR OBOSE: Were you alone in doing this?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: No, I was not alone.  We were in a kombi.

MR OBOSE: Did you decide on your own "let's go and fetch the Officers while they are not here, we need them here", or was there a general consensus in the meeting that the Officers be fetched?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: As we heard cars, they would mention people's names and we would go and fetch them.  I did not initiate that.

MR OBOSE: Before the 22nd of March 1994, was there or was there no feeling or fair amount of agitation on the part of the Police about or at least against the rule of Brigadier Gqozo?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, there was that kind of a feeling.  The Police were not happy, their houses were being burnt down in their communities.

MR OBOSE: Was this issue of the overthrow of Gqozo ever you know, discussed however informally, by the Police or at least the desire that somebody should rule and not Gqozo?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I never heard it being discussed during my presence.

MR OBOSE: Why did you identify with the singing and the sloganeering that was going on?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I was also against his regime.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Obose.  Mr Nompozolo, any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Is it correct that the Officers were questioned about the misappropriation of funds?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, something like that was made mention of.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it also correct that before an Officer is fetched, there would be certain allegations about misappropriation of funds and then subsequent to that, somebody would announce that that Officer should be fetched?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I do not remember anything about that.  But the person would be asked while inside the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that the Officers were never asked about their political affiliation?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that the Officers were never asked about their political affiliation?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I do not remember hearing that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it also correct that the Officers were never asked about their loyalty to Gqozo?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I never heard that, too.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it also correct that the Officers, nothing political was discussed with them, other than their involvement in the misappropriation of funds?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I won't know about the others, but I remember some of them, because I was not all alone there, doing the job.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, any way, can you just confirm that nothing politically was discussed with the Officers as far as you are aware?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: No, I don't want to lie, I don't remember anything like that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  That leaves us with one conclusion, that the Officers were there on the basis of accounting about their misappropriation of funds, not so?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: They were there because we wanted Gqozo to step down, to account for the moneys, that was asked from the person who was already there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, it would seem throughout the evidence that the Officers were never made part of the meeting which decided that Gqozo should step down.

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: The main fact of bringing them to the College, they were made part of the meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And throughout the evidence, there is no evidence that their participation was ever asked for or their opinion on the whole issue, not so?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: They were also saying something, they would contribute by saying something.

MR NOMPOZOLO: My instructions are that the only thing which happened in the hall was the humiliation of the Officers and many questions were asked, like they would be asked to state their CV's and on top of that, they would be asked about misappropriation of funds?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: If they were asked such questions, it is not the whole house that was posing such questions.  It could be some individuals.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, do you concede that some Officers were asked about the moneys and misappropriation of moneys?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, I do agree with that statement.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Ms Collett, have you got any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Collett.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Just a few Chairperson.  Sir, in your evidence in chief you said you went to fetch the Officers because they were staying at their places whilst other Police were at the hall, do you remember that?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Is that the only reason why you went to fetch them?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, because all the Police were supposed to be in one place.

MR MAPOMA: Who told you to go and fetch those Officers?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: It was Inspector Mfene.

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you why you must go and fetch them, did he tell you the reason why they were wanted?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: The reason was that all the Police were supposed to be at the College.