Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-03

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just say those names Mr Mtambo?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Gugu Twala and Sdicka Simelane.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, knew Sdicka, not Gugu Twala.

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me Madam Chair, Mr Phumayo, is it not true and it is an instruction from my client, that Mr Sdicka Simelane was murdered or killed in that township in 1993?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Which township?

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me, I was mistaken, not dead, but he was shot in kwaDela?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: And he died?

MR CLAASSEN: No, no, it is my mistake, he did not die, but he was shot.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, no, I didn't hear anything about that, because you know, Mr Sdicka and the other people there, who lived in Ermelo, they were IFP members, they came to our location during the turmoil stage of that period and when things started to be normal, they just went back to their relative places, so such an extent that he was only murdered where he lived in Ermelo, after he had gone back there.
	He has been involved in Davel during those times, the early 1990's.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Phumayo, it is my instruction that this Sdicka was not shot and killed, but he was killed in kwaDela in 1993?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: He was shot at, not killed.  Is that what you want to say?

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, I that is news to me, I did not hear anything about that or related to that.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you saying Mr Claassen, are you saying that Mr Sdicka Simelane was shot at by alleged ANC supporters, because what would be the relevance of that evidence if it impinged on that?

MR CLAASSEN: That is indeed what I was getting at Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you put it to him who of the alleged ANC members or supporters, allegedly shot him?

MR CLAASSEN: If I may just be afforded a moment Madam Chair.
	Thank you Madam Chair, Mr Phumayo, it is my instruction that this shooting incident on this Mr Sdicka was done by a man with the surname Nsiaplose, who was a prominent member of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, won't you allow Mr Mtambo to pronounce again the surname.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Msia Blose and Jonjos Skonde, those are the names that were known.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, I know those persons he has just mentioned, but there was no shooting which was related to them in any way, during that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Msia Blose and Jonjos Skonde to be members of the ANC?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Very well, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And how would you have been able to know whether this shooting did take place in 1993 on Sdicka Simelane?  Would it have come to your knowledge?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, it did not you know, come to my knowledge, as I have just said.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it something that ordinarily would have come to your knowledge?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: I think so, probably, because the applicant knows that and if again I can presume that he knew that during that period, then that means because there was a very close connection between the police and the IFP members, that could have been brought to light and those people could have maybe been arrested or anything like that.
	That is why I am assuming that it should not have happened, because I did not hear anything about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Madam Chair, just in conclusion, Mr Phumayo, were you present in kwaDela during this time?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: During?

MR CLAASSEN: During the years that you have just described?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, I was present.

MR CLAASSEN: From 1990 to 1993?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Exactly, actually I grew up there and in 1993, I was doing standard 8 and the school there at kwaDela, ended in standard 8 by that time, and in 1994, I resumed my education at Middelburg in 1994 and I completed my matriculation in 1995.  That is when I came back to kwaDela again.
	Those two years, 1994 and 1995, that is the time when I was not present in the area.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, what do you say to the fact that Ms Thabete has now introduced the evidence in respect of Mr Phumayo not having been the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League, as alleged by your client and that had not been put to him, to afford him maybe a proper opportunity to comment upon it.
	Wouldn't you want him to comment on that aspect of the evidence which has now been introduced through the evidence of Mr Trevor Phumayo?

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, I would appreciate the opportunity, and it is also my instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: I will then introduce it and I  will ask Mr Mtambo from the Chair.  Mr Mtambo, Mr Trevor Phumayo has now testified that the deceased, that is Mr Mshenga Phumayo, was never at any stage, a Chairperson of the ANC Youth League.
	You are now being given this opportunity to comment on that evidence, since it impinges on the evidence that you have already led, that to your knowledge he was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League and that he was so particularly at the time, when he was shot, being the 29th of May 1993.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I wouldn't try to argue with him on this point, but what I know is what I put before the Commission, because about his involvement and his chairmanship, I heard it from himself, when we were sitting together in a lunch and he told me he is the one who is the leader of the Youth, and I believed it because he told me that he was not the Chairperson of the Youth, I wouldn't go far to comment.
	I don't have the exact details as to, from outside, as to whether he was the Chairperson or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You have heard the evidence of Mr Trevor Phumayo saying that one Mr Ben Nkosi was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I would like to, would you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I will do so, in fact I was in the process of completing it and something interrupted me.  I was saying you have heard the evidence of Mr Trevor Phumayo, to the effect that Mr David Nkosi was in 1993 the Chairperson of the ANC and that in fact, he had been the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League, not only in 1993, but had been so in the many years preceding 1993.  What do you say to that evidence?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I cannot deny what he is saying now, because the only thing that I know is that the person I killed, was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League.
	He told me himself.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you told by him that he was the Chair of the ANC Youth League?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: At the time when I sat with him.

CHAIRPERSON: When in terms of months and year, were you told by him that he was the Chair of the ANC Youth League?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: It was before his death, that is how I could explain it.

CHAIRPERSON: In what year was that?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I can't remember the year, but if I were to estimate, it was after the death of Chris Hani, because after, it was the week after the funeral.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chris Hani died in 1992, am I correct Ms Thabete?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: 1993, on the 10th of April, if I can remember, on Good Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now you were sitting in a lunch, speaking with Mr Phumayo and he divulged this information and you referred to that place as being a lunch, do I understand that to be a shibeen or a tavern?
	By a lunch, do you mean a shibeen or a tavern?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, it is my uncle's place and it is a shibeen.

CHAIRPERSON: You were obviously having a friendly discussion at that stage?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: We were discussing the situation there, because I was very much worried about the situation at our place, and I tried to discuss this with him, since I saw him as a person who is in front and in order to get the situation in control, I thought it would be better to talk to him.

CHAIRPERSON: How could you have seen him as a person who was in front, because at that stage he had not told you that he was the Chair of the ANC Youth League?