Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we put his initials next to that cross?

MR STRYDOM: I will do so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: AMN.  Did you say you encircled it?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I circled it because there are other crosses as well, so I just marked that cross with a circle to indicate which one the applicant marked.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, very well.   That is the cross which is more or less towards the corner of the, the intersection of the roads, between (e) and (f)?

MR STRYDOM: I can see now, but in the veld.  That is the one Chairperson.

MR LAX: Yes, I've got it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.  I want you to indicate now how the group got to that position where the casspirs were - the route.

CHAIRPERSON: From the hostel?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, from the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand what is being required of you?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I do sir.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR STRYDOM: Just point out the route that was followed towards that - I am going to give you a marker pen, pink marker pen, can you draw a line to show ...

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, it might be easier if he just uses his finger, he is not familiar with it.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot see this road quite well.  There are several roads here.  It is a garage here and factories here, this is the route along here, along Vanderbijlpark, this is the road that we took.

MR STRYDOM: If I point to you the main gate of kwaMadala hostel, I want you to confirm that.  It is near that green roofs there, just on the one side of kwaMadala hostel.  Was that the position of the main gate?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct sir, that is where the main gate is.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see a parking area in front of the main gate?  That is that grey area.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can see that.

MR STRYDOM: Do you see the road that comes from Iscor towards the robots and towards the BP garage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can see it sir.

MR STRYDOM: The question is, after you left the main gate, you got onto the tar road, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, the main road, the one that goes under the bridge.

MR STRYDOM: You walked along underneath the bridge, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And you were following the route now towards the BP, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, now do you see the intersection between Frikkie Meyer and the other road, there at the robots, although you cannot see the robot, but do you see the intersection?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot even see the garage.

MR STRYDOM: But if I point out to you the intersection and I put to you the intersection is at that point I am showing to you now, do you see it, the intersection of that road and that road, do you see that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  Yes, I can see that intersection.

MR STRYDOM: In relation to the intersection and in relation to the casspirs, can you say how did you get to the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We took this road sir, and when we got to the robots near the Boipatong garage, we took this route.  This is where we arrived as a group, this is where we met the casspirs.

MR STRYDOM: So what you are pointing out is that you crossed over to the open veld towards the casspirs, very close to the robots, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, yes, we crossed the road.

MR STRYDOM: And at that stage the group was still intact, it was one group of people moving towards the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: I want to show you certain trees, I want to put to you that those trees is the fence of a nursery, do you know a nursery close to kwaMadala hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is possible, it could be the trees that we spoke about, yes, that is possible, that is when you go towards the veld on your way to Boipatong, you leave the garage behind a little bit.

MR STRYDOM: As you pointed out, the route you followed, was not a route that will take you behind the nursery towards the tar road, I am going to point it out to you, it is from the tar road, behind the nursery, that will say in between kwaMadala hostel and the nursery, to the right of the nursery, you did not follow that route?  I am going to point it out for you, from the tar, behind the nursery towards the tar?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did indicate that is not the route that we took.  I said when we left the robots, we took this direction.  I did not say we took that road.  I did say that we left the garage behind and the firms, and we took this route towards the veld.

MR STRYDOM: So you did not go behind the nursery, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say no.  We went towards the robots, but we had to take the route through the veld towards the casspirs.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify here, I am hearing you say subtly different things and I am a bit puzzled now.  I want you to be clear, this area of trees that is now being pointed out to you, which way did you pass in relation to those trees that is being pointed out to you?  I want you to think carefully, show us on that map, which way you went in relation to those trees, because that wasn't pointed out to you before.  Just show us carefully.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, this is the route from kwaMadala and this is the tar road towards Boipatong and here is the garage.  We went towards the garage, but then we had long walked passed the trees towards Boipatong because the trees are on the side of kwaMadala hostel.  We took this road and we went towards the veld.  We did not take this route.

MR LAX: Thank you.  So in fact you went to the left of those trees as one looks at this picture, to your left hand side, towards the robots and then you cut down into the veld, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: From the robots, we took this route through the veld and you can actually see here the tar road to Vanderbiljpark and you can see the one that is going to Boipatong and the one that is going to the hostel as well.  We had left the main road behind or on the side.

MR LAX: The one, if you are looking at that main road, the one that runs from right to left across the photograph, or from left to right whichever way, it would be the one you would have had to cross to get to Boipatong, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, that is the route that we took.

MR LAX: Listen to my question now.  On the left of that photograph, what direction is that, towards which place?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There is one route here that takes me to Sebokeng and another one leads me to Vanderbijl, another one leads me to Boipatong.  Here are the firms here.

MR LAX: I can see where the firms are.  On the right hand side of the photograph, what direction is that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It takes me towards Vanderbiljpark.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you.  Now at the point you went into the veld, you did not have to cross a bridge, is that correct?  Close to the robots where you went into the veld, you did not have to cross a bridge, is that correct or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I have explained, when we left, we took the direction towards the garage, that is towards the Boipatong area, and we then went through this veld.

MR STRYDOM: Let's make it easier, are you aware of a footbridge that is situated lower down, towards Vanderbijl and I am going to point out to you a position of a footbridge, that is lower down towards Vanderbijl, I am pointing out point (h) on Exhibit M1?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Where is this bridge, where is it headed?

MR STRYDOM: You can't see it on the photograph, do you know if there is a bridge or not in that area?  A footbridge where I show you point (h)?  This area, do you know a footbridge or not?