Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-06

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: From page 725 in General Malan's document there is a list of public statements by the ANC leadership - Mr Chairman, I don't mean to deal with this in detail.
	General, were you at the time aware of some of these statements?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, many of these statements came from Radio Freedom, they were heard on Radio Freedom, and we knew about Radio Freedom and their propaganda.  We knew about this by means of certain information surveys which were given to us by the Chief of the Defence Force and it was often quoted by politicians.

MR KNOETZE: And then specifically on page 728, as an example I'd like to read to you 11.9
"Our people must organise themselves into groups, manufacture traditional weapons which must be used against the enemy.  After arming ourselves in this manner, our people must begin to identify collaborators and enemy agents and kill them.  The puppets in the tri-cameral parliament and the Bantustans must be destroyed. - Radio Freedom broadcast by Mr Joe Modise on 1 December 1985."
What is your comment on this statement?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that was typical of the kind of statements and quotes which we heard about in our information surveys.  The puppets referred to are references to those black local councillors who were seen by the ANC as collaborators and collaborating with the government, for instance, the black councillors, the leaders of the TBVC countries, etc.  And in my own area mention was made of the Matanzimas in Transkei, they were seen as collaborating with the government.  To a lesser extent that was also said of President Lennox Sebe.

MR KNOETZE: And did your awareness of this attitude of the ANC, did that have any influence on what you did in Katzen?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.  We had programmes to try and support local councils and councillors especially.  I'm referring to programmes coordinated by the Joint Management System.  Most of these councils were replaced by alternative structures and later became very ineffective.

MR KNOETZE: What do you mean by alternative structures?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Alternatives structures, as the word indicates is a replacement organisation so that it means that the original structure is then attacked and then replaced by this alternative.  A good example is a local council instituted by our Department of Constitutional Affairs and maintained by us.  Those councillors were then intimidated to such an extent that they simply couldn't function, they became ineffective.  Then the M-Plan or the G-Plan, referring to Goniwe and Mandela, those plans were put in place and in place of the original black councils we saw a revolutionary alternative structure.

MR KNOETZE: Then I'd like to refer to 729, paragraph 11.12
"Members of the South African Defence Force were kept informed of the statements by the ANC.  Their sense of morality was obviously shaped and influenced by the sentiments expressed by the ANC leadership."
Do you support that statement?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, it is true, it influenced us.

MR KNOETZE: Then from page 730, General Malan deals with the category of statements, namely his own public statements regarding the ANC.  Once again, Mr Chairman, we're not going to deal with this in detail.
	Were you aware of the public statements made by your minister at the time?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, General Malan made a point of visiting the headquarters and units and during these visits he spoke to us and shared his views with us personally.  Apart from that there was also wide publicity given to these statements, wide publicity given to it in the media.  The Army Headquarters also had a programme known as Communication Bulletins and a lot of the Minister's were quoted in these bulletins.

MR KNOETZE: Then page 741, paragraph 12.9
"The government judged that it was not possible to withstand this onslaught only by normal and traditional military actions.  In the process therefore, use was made of unconventional methods.  These methods included cross-border operations, strategic communication operations (Stratcom), disinformation operations, other covert operations such as the CCB and support of anti-marxist liberation movements."
To start off with, do you confirm what is said there?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.  Yes, it's part of the counter-revolutionary warfare.

MR KNOETZE: And can Plan Katzen be regarded as an unconventional plan?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: Is there any connection between what is said here in relation to the anti-marxist liberation movements and Plan Katzen?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, support for liberation movements manifested in the resistance movements or fronts, the actions such as for instance spelt out in Plan Katzen were unconventional methods unique to revolutionary warfare.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you.  Mr Chairman, I would like to move to the SANDF's Representation, which is in the first volume of Exhibit C.
	General, could you just tell the Committee at the outset what is it that starts on page 1 of this exhibit?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chairperson, that is a submission which was compiled by the Nodel Point of the South African Defence Force, made for the Truth Commission and it was presented by Major General Mortimer.

MR KNOETZE: Then I'd like to refer you to page 100, paragraph 9(a).  I read it for you
"If we look at the previous constitutional dispensation, I would like to just make a couple of statements.  The old South African Defence Force served the government of the day and not a political party.  We did the self-defence for the State and we protected its civilians, and our internal conduct was in terms of the then constitution."
Now General Malan also touched on that.  Do you confirm that?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: Then on page 105, paragraph 19(a)
"We, as former Chiefs of the Defence Force and the Army, have no intention to evade responsibility for the Army's conduct and we will not place it on the shoulders of our sub-ordinates where they executed their duties in a disciplined way and in the execution of their duties.  We will also not follow the dishonest way by trying to make it all the responsibility of the politicians.  I repeat that the old South African Defence Force was not an unprofessional and undisciplined force which followed strategies without specific authorization."
What is your comment on that?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, I endorse that.  I can add that I was part of the team which compiled this document and I'd just like to reiterate that that is my feeling today as well.