Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You don't have time to look at a person closely in a fighting situation, you are just trying to protect yourself.

MR STRYDOM: But let me ask you this, if the three attackers are brought to you now, will you be able to identify them? - anyone of the three.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I will not be in the position.  Maybe if I - if he was brought forward so that I know who he is, maybe I would be at peace with myself.

MR STRYDOM: Tell me, do you know why the clergyman, Father Patrick phoned you informing you about the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am a congregant in his church, he is my pastor, he trusts me.  When he goes overseas I take charge of the church.  When he's not around on Tuesdays I take charge of things in the church.

MR STRYDOM: Now can I just get clarity again, at what stage in relation to this attack, did you come out of your bedroom, finally came out after the attack now?  The people came to your house, you said they left, were they still busy leaving or when did you come out of your room?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They had already left, but I could see them as they were leaving.

MR STRYDOM: You mean, did you see them outside the house leaving or did you still see them in the house leaving?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I went out through the front door and they had left the hi-fi which they had broken on the stoep.

MR STRYDOM: When you went outside what did you see?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw them as they were leaving.

MR STRYDOM: Where were they?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: On the open space.  I don't know how to explain it, you don't know Boipatong.  You see we are at the end of the township, so there is an open space and I could see them as they were leaving.  There is grass there.  I could see them as they were leaving.

CHAIRPERSON: No, what counsel is referring to, he's not referring to the group, do you understand that, he's referring to the three people who had entered your house.  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I understand.  They joined the big group that was leaving.

CHAIRPERSON: When you came out of the bedroom, did you see these three people who had entered your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said I saw them when they left.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they still inside ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: But I was not just standing, there was no time for that, they were leaving.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they still in your yard or were they on the street?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: In the street ...
...(end of side A of tape)

CHAIRPERSON: Were there other people on the street at the time?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were moving, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from these three people?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: When I came out of the house these three joined a group of people that was moving along the street.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people approximately did you see on the street at the time?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am not in the position to say.  You see when you look at a throng of people like this, you just cannot say how many they are, there were many.  I am saying I cannot estimate how many they were, there were many of them.
	All the people who had gone to attack Slovo etc., came out of the township through our street.

MR STRYDOM: Did you hear any noises or any sound as the people left?  Just to make it clear, you said now the three attackers joined the group.  At that stage, what did you hear?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were walking very swiftly, they were not making a noise.

MR STRYDOM: From the stage - when you still in your bedroom holding the door, up to the time that you went outside to see the group leaving, did you hear anything outside?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not hear any noise.  They were leaving.  You see, they were not talking, they were not making a noise as they were leaving.  People who were making a noise could have been the people who had been injured behind.  They were not making a noise, these people.

MR STRYDOM: So they were quietly moving out of the township at that stage?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage was there any vehicle in the close vicinity of this group?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There was no vehicle on the veld, it was only them moving on the veld and the koyokos were further up in Umzimvubu and there were lights there, they were visible.  One could see where they were headed.  And this Koyokos, two Koyokos were moving in front of them in Umzimvubu Street.

MR STRYDOM: When you testified yesterday in chief, you said the following - and I've just got a cryptic note:  You were testifying about how they tried to get into your room and then you said
"They left ..."
And then you were asked if you heard any other languages and you said yes, you heard Afrikaans "maak gou".

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And then you said
"Then they left and went into the forest"
That's more or less at the time, at the stage when you heard these voices.  Now you just told us that people left quietly.  When did you hear this "maak gou" then?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: My house was the last to be attacked and when this "maak gou" was, when I heard this "maak gou", it was after my house had been attacked.

MR STRYDOM: At the stage when the people were moving out?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, when they left.  Because they were the ones who were still remaining behind at my house and they were being called out by the other people in the group.  And when they called, this last person took the items of clothing from the sofa and he left the suitcase that he had brought in.

MR STRYDOM: So do you say that they shouted "maak gou", or somebody shouted "maak gou", when you were still in the bedroom?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not remain in the bedroom, I just held onto the door and I slammed the door on this person and thereafter left.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were holding onto the door, was this the bedroom door?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, it is the bedroom door.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you inside the bedroom or outside the bedroom?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was inside in the bedroom.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but then the three attackers left your house and you said you moved outside.  Now I just want to know, at what stage did you hear "maak gou",  were you still inside the bedroom holding the door, or already outside the bedroom, in the sitting-room?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was standing by the door and all the windows had been broken and because of that you could hear somebody calling from outside.  That is when I heard this.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, and that's also the stage when I asked you
"Did you hear anything?"
		"No, no noises, they left silently"
Now I'm putting to you, this story about "maak gou" is just now to insinuate that there were white people also involved.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: White people were also present.  That is the truth.  If I had money I would offer R4-million to say that yes, indeed they were there.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see the white people at the stage when you stood there looking through the broken windows?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There was no time to stand around, the fighting was going on.  You were looking everywhere, you couldn't just stand and just watch.

CHAIRPERSON: He's asking you - well, did you at any stage stand next to the broken windows to look outside?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was possible to see through the window after the windows had been broken, even if you were not standing next to the window.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but when you saw the three attackers joining the group and you saw them with the goods you referred to, was that the stage when you heard the people shouting "maak gou"?