Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair I'm worried that an employee ofthe Commission promised you to be here this morning, he wasn't,he wasn't here at tea-time and as far as we can see he's not herenow.   We must proceed with this matter without knowing whetheranybody has been informed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman that is so and that may be unacceptablebut this is the report that I'm given that transpired betweenmyself and him today as to why he's not here as he had promisedor timeously, to that I cannot respond, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps when we resume you may be better informed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Perhaps he shall be here by then Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : I will endeavour to get in touch with him oncemore.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn now and resume at 2 o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mpshe, where do we proceed to from here?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman the nextmatter is the Nietverdient 10.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman mayI
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proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman youwill find this matter in the application of Captain Hechter atpage 36 and I beg leave to call Captain Hechter as witness.  Mr Chairman I beg your pardon, I will call Brigadier Cronje first,you will find that on page 86 of his application, page 87 Mr Chairman,87 yes.
JAN HATTINGH CRONJE (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier could you explain to us what happenedin this incident?

ANSWER: Joe Mamasela infiltrated a group of young activistsin Mamelodi.   He informed me that they wanted to receive militarytraining abroad and a meeting was arranged between myself andColonel Shamadiaz(?) of Special Forces where we discussed thismatter.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier can I just stop you here.   Did JoeMamasela tell you whether he had convinced the young activiststo receive training or whether they volunteered to receive thistraining?

ANSWER: No he said that they volunteered, they approachedhim.   To inform the Committee, Mamasela always presented himselfas a member of MK that is why it was easy for him, it was regularlythat people had asked him questions such as these.   A Kombi wasmade available to Mamasela, I must in addition say that from theZeerust office I discussed this with Crouse and Loots that ona particular evening we would meet at the Security Branch officesin Zeerust.    I made this Kombi available to Mamasela and hearranged to take these MK soldiers, or intended MK soldiers, acrossthe
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border at Nietverdient to Botswana for training purposes. 
Mamasela left with the Kombi.   After he had picked up these persons,Captain Hechter and myself followed them in my car to watch theKombi to ensure Mamasela's safety.   Mamasela gave these personsbeer and then at the Zeerust Security Branch I and Hechter contactedLoots, Crouse and Shamadiaz of the SADF.   I met Mamasela in townand told him to drive the Nietverdient road and then to turn downthat particular dirt road, close to Nietverdient.   Mamasela wentahead, Hechter, Loots, Crouse and myself then followed them ina Kombi.   Mamasela followed this lonely little bush path as arranged,then we parked behind Mamasela's road but there was a furtherKombi at the scene with four of Shamadiaz' operatives, whom Ido not know, all of them were wearing balaclava caps and theywere awaiting Mamasela at that point.   When he stopped, theytook the persons out of this vehicle, they were under the influenceof alcohol to a considerable extent at that time.   As they weretaken out of the Kombi, the members of the military pressed themdown to the ground and injected them with something.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier would you know what the contentsof the injections were?

ANSWER: No I have no idea.   They were then put backin the Kombi and then we drove to an area in Bophutatswana.  This Kombi with the trainee soldiers was pushed down an inclineand then the Kombi was filled with explosives and blown up.  The purpose was to let it appear as if the intended MK soldiersdrove up against a wall or against the incline and blew themselvesup.   The Botswana police investigated this car wreck and theremains of the persons in it.   There were some newspaper reports,after which
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General Victor phoned me to ask me whether it had been our
staff who were hurt.   I told him that was the case.   He congratulatedme with the operation.   The particular young persons were verykeen to receive military training.   The purpose of the operationwas to eliminate the prospective activists before they could leavethe country so that it could serve to frighten other prospectiveactivists from joining MK.   A further purpose was to eliminateprospective MK soldiers who at a later stage could return as well-trainedterrorists and commit acts of terror.   I would have had no ideawhere they would then have committed these acts of terror.   While I cannot remember the specific detail, I do remember thatthese activists probably had all been involved in school boycotts,consumer boycotts and arson.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Brigadier.   In your view, was thereany other way in which you could have dealt with these prospectivesoldiers under these circumstances in order to prevent them fromreceiving training and then to return to commit acts of terror?

ANSWER: No, we did not see any other way of dealing withthem.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, the political purposes of the actyou have already set out from page 91 and thereafter what thepolitical purposes were.   Do you confirm these as set out?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier in terms of what instructions didyou act?

ANSWER: In terms of the general instructions from BrigadierVictor.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: You knew from the outset that these young boys
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were going to be doomed to die?

ANSWER: Yes I did Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the names of these young people?

ANSWER: I do not know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge did anybody have a list ofwho they were?

ANSWER: Mamasela would have had a list or at least hewould have known the names.
MR ?:: Can I mention we are on record for this matterjust in case you are unaware of that.

ANSWER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So this entire exercise was brought into beingas a result of a report from Mamasela that these youngsters wantedto go for military training?

ANSWER: That is the case Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: No attempt was made to get hold of these youngsters,to talk them out of it, to educate them differently, no attemptwas made to treat them in that fashion?

ANSWER: Mamasela had instructions to talk to them andit turned out that they were all extremely convinced of theirintentions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether in fact Mamasela enticedthem to join, you wouldn't know would you?

ANSWER: No I would not know, but his instructions werespecifically that he was not supposed to entice people to joinMK or any such actions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamasela being the kind of man he was, couldyou place any reliance on what he would say?

ANSWER: At that time I trusted Mamasela entirely, hehad given me no reason for not trusting him.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
COMMITTEE 608 J H CRONJE

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get the report that these
youngsters were involved in boycotts, school boycotts and activitiesof that kind?

ANSWER: Again that would have been the source reportsas well as Mamasela's own reports.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamasela's reports, were they oral or in writing?

ANSWER: That would have been written reports.

CHAIRPERSON: To you personally?

ANSWER: No he would have given it to the particular sectionwho worked with these matters, he would have given the reportsto them.   I would, however, have had access to these reports.