Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: That is the case.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

JUDGE WILSON: : There are two matters I want to ask youabout.   The first is, we have been told that Mamasela was drivinga Kombi that these people were travelling in?

ANSWER: That is the case.

JUDGE WILSON: : Where did the Kombi come from?

ANSWER: Mr Chair as far as I can remember, BrigadierCronje gave testimony that he made this Kombi available.

JUDGE WILSON: : Was it one of your Kombis?

ANSWER: It wasn't one which we normally used in the Branch,I cannot exactly remember or know where Brigadier
1. Cronje /...
COMMITTEE 654 J HECHTER
Cronje would have obtained it, but it was not one we generallyused.

JUDGE WILSON: : As I understand it, no attempt was madeto remove the chassis No., the engine No., or anything of thatnature?

ANSWER: I would not be able to give testimony in thisregard because I don't know.

JUDGE WILSON: : While you were there it wasn't done?

ANSWER: Not in my presence no, it wasn't done in mypresence.

JUDGE WILSON: : The second point is you've told us thatMamasela was given a motor vehicle, paid out of secret State funds?

ANSWER: That is the case Chair.

JUDGE WILSON: : Were you given a vehicle?

ANSWER: Yes but it wasn't paid out of the secret fund. This was a vehicle which had to be referred back to the State,it could be traced.   It was only an official vehicle which Iused.

JUDGE WILSON: : Do you know of any other things that wereprovided or bought with secret State funds?

ANSWER: No Chair, there were vehicles which were givento some of the police out of the secret funds, this was indeedthe case.

JUDGE WILSON: : Some of the police in your Branch?

ANSWER: No not in our Branch, these would have been peoplewho worked under deep cover.   Their vehicle would had to havebeen registered in their names so that if anyone traced the registrationnumber they would not be able to trace it back to the police.

JUDGE WILSON: : ...I have is why it should have to comefrom
1. secret /...
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secret funds.   I can understand registering the vehicle in theirname but that can be done if it's bought openly and aboveboard,can't it?

ANSWER: I will not be able to help you in this regard.

JUDGE WILSON: : Mamasela was paid a salary wasn't he?

ANSWER: He was indeed paid a salary, a full police salary.

JUDGE WILSON: : ...do you know that he had been a criminal?

ANSWER: I did not know sir, I only discovered this inlater years.   He only told me how well trained a terrorist hewas, we co-operated for three years, we worked very closely togetherand he only told me how very well trained he was.   He was veryproud of the way in which he acted, but he never told me thathe was a criminal previously.

JUDGE WILSON: : He told you how well trained a terroristhe was, what do you mean by that?

ANSWER: He told me that he was sent out for trainingand that he was very well trained with regard to his knowledgeof East Block arms.   At that time I was brand new at the SecurityBranch and his knowledge of the AK and the Makarov and the handgrenadesand all of these arms were indeed very excellent.

JUDGE WILSON: : (Inaudible).

ANSWER: Yes that kind of military stuff.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman I'll be very short.  Captain what was Mamasela's rank?

ANSWER: At that time he was a Sergeant.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain, as far as you can recall were thereactivists who took part in serious acts who did not leave thecountry voluntarily for training, can you remember just
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MR DU PLESSIS 656 J HECHTER
generally speaking?

ANSWER: I don't think so, I think everyone who left thecountry, left voluntarily they grasped the opportunity.

<UNKNOWN>: No, were there activists who did not go fortraining?

ANSWER: Indeed, many of them did not leave for militarytraining they continued with the struggle here.

<UNKNOWN>: ...instructions from Brigadier Cronje thatthe Kombi that was used was what they called an "Article3 Kombi", it was as I understand it, and there was evidenceto that effect, a stolen Kombi which was returned and was utilisedby the police in terms of normal legislation.   That was the Kombithat was used.   Those are my instructions.

JUDGE WILSON: : So it would have been easy to identifythat it was a vehicle that was being used by the police, if itwas done officially, if it was handed over to them officially,or are they saying they got stolen property handed over to themwith no record kept?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman my instructions are that itwouldn't have been easy to link it to the police.

JUDGE WILSON: : One wonders why, stolen property, presumablyhe police keep a record of in case the owner arrives?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman, my information and my instructionsare that these were stolen vehicles which were not claimed bythe owners, which were taken back by the police, they weren'tclaimed by their owners and they were never registered on thename of the South African Police.

JUDGE WILSON: : But a record should be available of stolengoods that come into the hands of the police surely?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman my instructions are that
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normally with these stolen vehicles, the chassis numbers and theother numbers would, in any event because of the fact that theywere stolen, be taken off.   Mr Chairman obviously we're speculatingnow about various situations and possibilities.   I just wantedto clear that up as far as I could Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Captain Hechter you wouldn't be able tounequivocally state that some of the activists who left the countryfor training were not persuaded by some of the MK people who werein the country or ANC officials?

ANSWER: I would not be able to give you an answer inthis regard Chair because I wasn't present when they recruitedthese persons.  I do however know that recruitment was a dailyoccurrence by these people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Thank you, I'm glad you used the word "recruitment".
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman, I just want to raise onepoint, I'm not sure if the answer that was given now or that thequestion was correctly understood.   As I understood the answer,and I just want to clear this up, as I understood the answer theanswer did not refer to something that Mamasela did, but it referredto what normal ...[interjection]...yes thank you, then we understoodit right, thank you.   Thank you Mr Chairman I have no furtherwitnesses on this aspect.

MR CURRIN: : Mr Chairman before I call a witness, I justwould like to inform the Committee that we have succeeded in gettingbirth certificates or baptismal certificates I believe from everyone.  At the moment we're busy sorting
8.1 them /...
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them out because we got most of them about half an hour ago andarranging to make the necessary copies.   We are also liaisingwith the office of the Attorney-General to make sure that theones we submit here are in fact related to the Nietverdiend andnot to the Kwandabele 9 because apparently there has been a littlebit of confusion.    Those copies will be available, properlysorted and verified, within the course of the next half an hour.  I would just like some guidance from the Committee, would yourequire five copies for the Committee or is one copy of each certificatesufficient?

CHAIRPERSON: One will be enough.