Human Rights Violation Hearings — Middelburg — 1997-06-04

CHAIRPERSON: Jabu, may I just follow-up on the line of questioning of Mrs Sooka and Dr Ally?
 Did a - it's clear by now to us, from our experience all over they country, that whenever such meetings took place, as you have been describing, and the police decided to disperse it, that the pattern that you've described is probably the correct pattern.  
 They give you a certain time within which to disperse.  If you don't do it, they use teargas, they use buckshot, they use rubber bullets and they disperse the crowd.  
 In principle that is what happened.  Now the difficulty that I have, having listened to you is that, that part you give us in exactly the same way as our experiences.  But you seem to feel that we may be sitting here as a court of law, wanting to accuse you again.  
 So we don't get in the same open fashion your story as to really what the activities of the youth were.  In your evidence you simply said that after you were dispersed and the people were running away, you say, two houses of policemen started to burn.
 Now frankly, houses don't start to burn by themselves.  People set fire to houses.  They commit arson in some way.  And this too, was a pattern in the struggle.  Can't you tell us more about that.  
 I mean, surely you were an active member of the youth league.  Was this a pattern?  Did the youth do it?  You don't have to tell us whether you participated or not.  
 But in some way you make, you create the impression as if you're saying it happens by itself.  And there were two sides or more sides to the conflict.  Won't you share a little of that with us?

JABU MASEKO: I can't explain that, because I wasn't there and I didn't see the people who burned houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you never ever seen people who burned houses in the struggle?  And let me again say;  the years '86, '86 specifically in this area, of the sort of nearer Eastern Transvaal, they were very, very tough years.
 I mean the security establishment went all out to stamp out resistance.  It was a all-out war generally speaking between the security police and the broader establishment and the youth.
 The youth carried the torture of liberation.  I'm not using a pun when I say the torch.  But the youth were really in the front line of everything.  And the security establishment, by all our research and evidence from other areas, were all out to stamp out the resistance.
 Now, is this impression correct, or is it totally untrue?  Are we reading History wrongly?

JABU MASEKO: I'll say the police started everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  It seems as if we're not going to get much further on this.  And we don't have to pursue this.  Really, it's not a trial.  It's trying to get to more information.
 Just one last question as a matter of interest.  You say the policemen that the community knew him as Magaduzabe;  am I pronouncing it correctly - the nickname?

JABU MASEKO: He was a reservist and he was not a police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What was his nickname and what does it mean?  Does it have a meaning?

JABU MASEKO: I don't know, but I know him as the manager of one bottle store and that the first time I saw him, I discovered that he worked as a police reservist.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he still alive?

JABU MASEKO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he still lives here?  Is he still the manager of the bottle store?

JABU MASEKO: Yes.  He is not the manager of the bottle store, but he is still around.

CHAIRPERSON: He's still around.  Just - sorry - this is a White man, you said?  In your statement you did say so?

JABU MASEKO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then a - just again, lastly.  Where, at what stage were you shot and where was it?  Because I really couldn't quite get clarity on that in your statement.
 As Dr Ally quoted you, you say you were on the street and here comes this man and he walks up to you and he says, hallo Jabu and he shoots you.
 But in your evidence you talked about some other occasion.  I'm not sure.  Just for our record;  at what stage and where in the township were you when you were shot?

JABU MASEKO: It was next to my mother's place.  I'd say it was next to my aunt's place and I was just getting out of the gate, because there were, it wasn't fenced, the police were just coming from the other direction, that side.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you shot from the back?

JABU MASEKO: It was in the yard, my aunt's yard.

CHAIRPERSON: You said the police then came from the other side.  Did they get out of the police van to shoot you?  Or were you shot from the van?

JABU MASEKO: They were on foot.  The van only arrived after I was shot as I was struggling to stand up.  They went away after shooting me and they came back with a van and they put me into a van.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thank you for coming to us, sharing with us.  We'll see what more information we can get and in due time you will be hearing from us.
 Thank you for sharing your story with us.
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