Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

MR BERGER: It's my note.
"Joseph Malaza the same, this is the Hertz man, Thami Mnyele got involved in music, Dick Mtsweni regularly mentioned in reports, George Pahle, regularly mentioned in reports, Lindi Pahle, can't recall her name, not a suspect from our division, possible her name was mentioned by other divisions."
The asked who was definitely on the list of targets, he says:
"Thami Mnyele, Duke Machoabane, Dick Mtsweni, the old man, George Pahle".
Those were the four people that he remembers were definitely on the list of targets.  What evidence does he have?  He says regularly mentioned in reports.  Doing what?  He can't take it further than that.  Compare that with our evidence.  What do our people say about Thami Mnyele, or Dick Mtsweni, or George Pahle.  I ask the Committee to compare that evidence and then ask:  "Why is it that the people who were hit, were at best involved in the ANC in the non military side and why is it?  Because of examples, like Muff Anderson says to Mike Hamlyn:  "You better not stay at home."  Baleka Mbethe says to Thami Mnyele:  "You better not stay at home" and what happens?  They stay at home because they say:  "We're not targets."  They never even thought that the apartheid state would be mad enough to target them because what were they involved in that justified such a response?  All the people who were involved militarily, they get out of the way.

MR MALAN: Mr Berger was it not your witnesses that introduced the evidence that they advised the victims not to stay at home because they believed that they may be targeted and hit?

MR BERGER: No, they believed that if the Security Forces are coming, we don't know how they're coming and ANC people are at risk.  That was their belief, but the very people who got killed, their belief was:  "I'm not a person who ought to be a target.  I'm not the kind of person that the apartheid state wants to kill, because I'm not involved in military operations against the apartheid state."  Why would, if there is this alert and if there is this general paranoia, why would people like Mike Hamlyn and Thami Mnyele ignore this advice?  I submit the only explanation can be that they didn't seriously think they would be targeted for assassination.  I can't think of another probable explanation.

MR MALAN: No, that I accept but your witnesses clearly accepted that they could be targeted.

MR BERGER: They accepted that anyone could be targeted.

MR MALAN: Ja including those people.

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR MALAN: But they specifically warned those people, not everybody.  There wasn't an alert, the evidence was not that there was an alert out for everybody who was associated with the ANC or seen as ANC to be sleeping in homes not of ANC.

MR BERGER: No there was that evidence.

MR MALAN: No well not very specific that she advised, sorry Ms Anderson was very specific advising Hamlyn to move out because of the address being associated with her.

MR BERGER: Yes and Ms Mbethe says at page 14, para 5:  "I told Thami that I hoped he was not sleeping at his house as there had been an alert since the beginning of June."  Not an alert about Thami Mnyele, a general alert.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, Mr Berger, your argument sounds very attractive to me.  I want to raise one issue there, because I need to deal with it.  I've got no doubt that there was this general alert.  Now if these people were being warned not to sleep at home, let me ask you this, is there any evidence that those who warned others, themselves left home?  I don't recall evidence like that.

MR BERGER: Well Tim William's house was attacked, Tim Williams wasn't killed.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no I accept that.  I'm talking about - let's take Ms Mbethe.

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: She had the presence of mind to tell Thami:  "Thami you'd better not sleep at home if there's a general alert" and I'm not saying that I hold anything against her, Ms Mbethe, but if Thami was not considered a target and everybody associated with the ANC had to leave home because of this general alert, did Ms Mbethe leave home, because she was clearly a member of the ANC?

MR BERGER: Well we don't know, but I submit that the evidence is clear.  There's a general alert:  "Don't sleep at home" and all ANC ...(intervention

CHAIRPERSON: All ANC members would have to change addresses then for that night or two, whatever.

MR BERGER: Yes.

JUDGE MOTATA: And she doesn't only alert Thami, she herself did not sleep there, but as we look at the evidence we don't hear about her being wanted, but because of this alert, she says:  "Thami, don't sleep at home" and she takes the advice she has given to Thami and not sleep at home and she survives.

MR BERGER: Well Judge we don't know who exactly slept at home and who didn't sleep at home.

JUDGE MOTATA: At least we know Ms Mbethe did not.

MR BERGER: ;   Well I would assume so.

JUDGE MOTATA: No, no, it's in the statement.  Read the statement.  I'm quoting from her statement
"I told Thami that I hoped he was not sleeping at his house as there had been an alert since the beginning of June.  He assured me he wasn't.  I did not see him alive again.  I did not sleep at my house that night."

MR BERGER: Thank you.  Yes, I'm sorry, I missed that.

CHAIRPERSON: So it seemed that everybody was changing abodes for a period.

MR BERGER: Well we know, as I said, we know that Tim William's house was destroyed, but Tim Williams wasn't killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MALAN: Was he in Kabwe?

MR BERGER: No, he wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.  I follow your argument.

MR BERGER: And the only supposed evidence that we've been furnished with is this paragraph from the book of Peter Stiff which it is so clear now is riddled with rubbish that no reliance can be placed on this, so  where ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously) ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Berger, let's cut out the comments.  You have the undertaking that the veracity of the book has not been proved, we will not take any notice of ...(indistinct)

MR MALAN: May I, just for myself, ask because I thought that we could take Stiff's book at least as a communication of what Williams and others at that level would have given him in order to write the book.

MR BERGER: Williams?

MR MALAN: No, I'm not talking about Tim Williams, Williamson and others.  That's part of the propaganda.

MR BERGER: Well Mr Malan I don't know that Craig Williamson gave Peter Stiff any information.

MR MALAN: No, I'm talking about a level.  Where would he have had the information from?

MR BERGER: He says he interviewed Barnacle and ...

MR MALAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well in any case Mr Berger, you're not prepared to make that concession.

MR BERGER: No.  For example Peter Stiff says that he was told that Uriel Abrahamse is dead.  It's in this paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps that's the reason why Mr Olifant didn't recognise him.

MR MALAN: I think Mr Abrahamse said that the Sunday Times had a similar report.

MR BERGER: He said originally he was on the list, yes.

MR MALAN: Also that he was dead.

CHAIRPERSON: He was the Joe Slovo of Botswana.

MR BERGER: Was he the Joe Slovo of Botswana or was it Tim Williams?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said ...

MR MALAN: I wasn't in on it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he testified that the newspapers said that.

MR BERGER: That's what he said, yes.  Yes, he says in his statement...(intervention)

MR MALAN: My question really is, isn't it common cause that there was a briefing immediately after the raid where Williamson and I think Staedler led the briefing, where they gave the information that later sort of corroborated or whatever, or repeated in Stiff's book, so the point really is that there was some presentation to make it believable.

MR BERGER: Yes, but where did that evidence come from or was it the usual Stratcom that was manufacture ...