Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...I'm talking about standing, you can stand near or far next to the house it doesn't matter.   The point is you say that you were stationary, you were standing, you were not moving towards the house?

ANSWER: Yes we were standing.   We were standing sir because Mr Dirk Coetzee was saying something, I cannot remember what he was saying we should do and then these people appeared, but we were busy talking.   He was speaking to us, I cannot remember what he was saying.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...standing there.

ANSWER: I am unable to say sir but it was a very short while, I'd say that we had just got there, we had just stopped there it wasn't a long time at all, we just stopped when he was starting to talk to us.   I don't know what he was saying  when these ladies appeared, you could see the light and they appeared.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...instructions.  (First part of all
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questions lost as microphone is not picking up question or is not switched on.)

ANSWER: I trust so sir, but I cannot remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you left your base for the targeted house, were you given any specific instructions on what each and every one of you were going to do to successfully execute the operation by Mr Coetzee?

ANSWER: The instruction I received was that we were to go to that house, when we get there what I was to do  was to shoot any person that I saw.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you hear any instructions given to Mr Mamasela to shoot, as the person who knew Mrs Joyce Dibali?

ANSWER: No I cannot say, I cannot remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you were given instructions to shoot whatever was in the house, were you also in the company of the other people who were part of the operation?

ANSWER: Yes, we were all together, we that were going to execute the operation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...the instructions you are now telling us, are they instructions which were conveyed to all the others, including Mr Mamasela and Mr Tsikalanga?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your evidence you stated that Mr Mamasela knew this house, in your evidence.   To your knowledge how did he know this house?

ANSWER: According to my knowledge Joe was someone who worked for the ANC in the Gaberone region and he knew these places there.   When I went with him to look at this house, keep it under surveillance, there was no problem because he knew this place and that was why I was told to accompany him.   He showed me this place because he knew the area,
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Gaberone.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you went for your surveillance trip on that day, during that day in the company of Mr Mamasela and you came back, did you give a report to anyone like Mr Coetzee?

ANSWER: Yes we did.   My report was that I had seen this house and where it was.    I cannot remember whether I had seen people or cars or anything, I cannot remember that part.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...might have seen people?

ANSWER: I am sure I would have told him if I had seen, I am not sure, it's possible.   It's possible, I cannot remember.

JUDGE WILSON: I'd like you to tell me a little bit more please about what happened after these two women came out of the house.   You have told us that you had just stopped there when they came out and Joe grabbed one and a shot was fired.   Is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: The woman he was holding then dropped?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

JUDGE WILSON: What happened then, was the door of the house still open?

ANSWER: Where we had entered the door was open.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you go into the house?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

JUDGE WILSON: What happened inside?

ANSWER: Inside the house Dirk Coetzee and Joe Mamasela were standing at the door shooting inside, towards, in the direction of the other rooms.   There was a passage and there were rooms leading off from the passages and they were
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firing shots in the directions of these rooms.

JUDGE WILSON: Firing down the passage?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Did they stay in the room you were in, the room you'd entered?

ANSWER: Who are you referring to?

JUDGE WILSON: Captain Coetzee and Joe Mamasela, you told us they went into the house, they were standing at the door shooting in down the passage in the direction of the doors.  Is that so?

ANSWER: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Did they go any further into the house or did they then turn and go out?

ANSWER: No one went into any of the other rooms.

JUDGE WILSON: So they stood at the one and shot down the passage and no one went into any of the other rooms?

ANSWER: No, no one went in, I was standing behind them.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible, microphone not on).

ANSWER: Yes that is what I remember.

JUDGE WILSON: So they made no attempt to find out if Joyce Dibali or her husband were in any of these other rooms?

ANSWER: As far as I can remember sir, I don't know anything about them doing anything like that.

JUDGE WILSON: You said they did not go into any of the other rooms, so they didn't look to see who was in the other rooms.

ANSWER: Yes I say so sir.

JUDGE WILSON: They shot this one person, left her lying, fired some shots down the passage and left the house, is that so?

ANSWER: Yes sir.
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JUDGE WILSON: (Microphone not functional).

ANSWER: No I did not know sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You didn't think you should go and look?

ANSWER: I would not have been able to go through past these people that were standing in the doorway shooting.

JUDGE WILSON: ...were shooting and they didn't go further and you were not able to, is that the position?

ANSWER: Yes that's as I said sir.

UNKNOWN: Were you instructed or was the name of Mrs Dibali's husband ever mentioned?

ANSWER: I cannot remember being told of any such name, it's possible that I was told but I cannot remember it anymore.

UNKNOWN: Weren't you instructed to kill the woman and her husband, wasn't that the whole purpose of the operation?

ANSWER: It's possible that it was so sir, but I am merely relying on my memory of what I was told.   I'm not disputing the fact that there are people with such names or that was the intention.

UNKNOWN: You can only remember that the instruction was to kill all the occupants of the house?

ANSWER: Sir I remember being instructed to kill the ANC people occupying that house.

UNKNOWN: Weren't the names of Mr Dibali and his wife mentioned to you?

ANSWER: It's possible that their names were mentioned but I cannot remember, it's a long time since these incidents took place.   A lot of things have happened in which I was involved and I know sir that I am supposed to try and recall this specific one that we are dealing at this point in time, but I have difficulty remembering events and the sequence in
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which they took place because I had absolutely no contact with the people with whom I was involved in these things, apart from hearing them denying that I was, they were involved with me or not.   As far as my memory serves me, I cannot remember all the details of this but there are merely certain things where I can dispute but most of the time I cannot, because I was never in contact with any of the people that I was involved with.

UNKNOWN: Mr Nofomela you've told us of two incidents now where you were involved, the one in Lesotho and this one in Botswana.   You only fired one shot in Lesotho and one shot in Botswana, is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Were you ever involved in any incident, for which you are asking for amnesty, where you fired more than one shot on occasions?

ANSWER: Maybe if I'm given a chance one day to try and recall specifically, it is possible that there was an incident or two where I was involved and had fired more than one shot.