Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Such a debriefing as you have told me, could 
take a few days?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And for these four people, the information which 
they had in their possession, according to you what did that include?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They could, not all, but they could identify 
most of our informers and sketch their profiles.  The profiles on the 
members of the Security Branch could have been exposed.

ADV BOOYENS: If you mention a profile that means where he is, 
where he works, where he lives, where his children go to school, 
what car he drives, it is all that type of information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Informers, you also include some agents?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Agents, some associates and also sources.

ADV BOOYENS: And also regarding the physical sources, or 
rather the physical facilities, the safe premises?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.  And also our operating 
centres.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words with an experienced team of 
interrogators and a tremendous amount of information can be 
gathered from these people.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you have any reason to believe that the ANC 
outside and the military wing did not have this capability or did you 
know they had this capability?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I was satisfied that they have the ability to do 
this.

ADV BOOYENS: You mention in paragraph 22 about your 
continued discussion with Brigadier Gilbert, that you have 
mentioned that these members knew about your operations and 
should it be disclosed that these people were double agents or 
moles, it would have had a negative influence on the black members 
in the Security Branch.  They would realise immediately that their 
identity and profiles would be made available to the enemy.
	Mr Nieuwoudt, an Intelligence network, such as the Security 
Police had, there is a problem people are murdered, everybody knew 
about that because they were part of the Security Police and then it 
would have been difficult to recruit other sources?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You struggle to find policeman who would work 
as agents.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Should such a mole been able to provide the 
information and the opposition forces use this information, that 
means this whole intelligence network could deteriorate, fall apart?
	Could the Security Police function without an intelligence 
network?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, we can't.  It was our ears and our eyes.  It 
was theoretically possible to deploy a network, but that would have 
taken a long time.

ADV BOOYENS: could you in 1989, as far as you knew at that 
stage, could you afford something like this?  something negative like 
this to happen?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, we couldn't.

ADV BOOYENS: You also mention in paragraph 23 an aspect 
which you have already mentioned, namely that the profiles of the 
Security Police could put their lives in danger?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You then gave  Gilbert this information and he 
told you to do further investigations?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: He also told you that you should perhaps try to 
talk to them and find out if you could extract any information from 
them.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: That is paragraph 24.  What happened about 
that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I tried, but nothing came of it.

ADV BOOYENS: Did they act?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: This discussion that we are talking about, what it 
meant was that you confronted him directly and told them that they 
were spies?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, no, it was far more subtle than that.

ADV BOOYENS: Paragraph 25, you refer to the fact that you got 
information via an informer in Lesotho?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And that the information was to the effect that 
your safe facilities had already been exposed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And that a specific operation regarding a 
Swaziland operation had been exposed and you came to the 
conclusion that that was the agent, the agent had been intercepted?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Your information also indicated that this specific 
Swaziland source had been detained in Quatro and that Chris Hani 
had interrogated him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You then activated your sources further and 
monitored their activities in an ongoing basis?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Eventually you obtained the information which is 
spelt out in paragraph 26?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Namely that Mgoduka and Charles Jack had been 
recruited by Godji Skenyana?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: He operated in Lesotho?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And it then later became clear that both Faku 
and Sehati and later Mapipa as well, had been sub-sources for Godji. 
 That Mgoduka was the principal agent and the others had given him 
information.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: What was the degree of reliability of this 
Lesotho source?  You had certain methods to test sources?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: It was usually compared to information from 
other sources to see how reliable it was?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words, if the agent says there was to be 
a bomb at a certain place, and if the bomb exploded, that would act 
as corroboration.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Now the source in Lesotho who gave this 
information, had he been used by you for quite some time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, when you come to a convenient 
point, you should tell us, because we should adjourn quarter to.

ADV BOOYENS: Certainly Mr Chairman, if I can just finish this 
aspect of the source then that would be a convenient stage.  The 
information which he had given you in the past, was that reliable?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: So you get the information from the source and 
independently of that, you had already monitored conversations, 
intercepted letters etc, and you knew that some of your people had 
physically disappeared and these four people were the only ones who 
had known about this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You also knew that there was a safety and 
security leak in the Security Branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: So these objective facts, did that corroborate the 
information that there were moles in the Security Branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: We will continue with paragraph 27 after the 
adjournment.  Mr Chairman, subject to your, what you say, this may 
be a convenient stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will adjourn and resume at eleven 
o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: We are continuing with the evidence of Mr 
Nieuwoudt and Adv Booyens was busy leading him.  You can 
continue Mr Booyens.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: (s.u.o.)

ADV BOOYENS: (cont)  
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  We go to paragraph 27 on page 
331.  The information which you got that Godji had in early 
December, contacted him about the identification of a police vehicle 
from that well placed informer, the same one which gave you the 
previous information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And in the same period, there was a 
correspondence from Police head quarters which you received that 
there was revolutionary planning for the 16th of December which 
was also known as Heroes Day and it also fit in with the information 
that acts of terror were planned for that day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.