Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Now in your application form at 11(b), you indicated that the orders were issued by APLA Director of Operations, Comrade Letlapa Mphahlele when you were asked who gave those orders for you to go and attack the farm.  Now you are telling the Committee about Rasta Moloto, you have not mentioned Letlapa Mphahlele.  Can you explain to the Committee?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: After familiarising myself with the request from the organisation, I inquired as to who is responsible for all these orders.  Rasta Moloto then informed me, he said:  "You must know Lebohang Mehi, he has been given orders by the superiors", I asked him:  "Who are the superiors?" , he said:  "Letlapa Mphahlele", that's how it came about that I knew the person who gave orders was up there and he was Letlapa Mphahlele.

CHAIRPERSON: But you go on and say those orders were issued between 92 and 93, was that also said by this Mehi?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Yes, the orders that we were given were given out in that year.  I think I mentioned, I said Lebohang Mehi, we separated with Lebohang Mehi in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but to a question from your legal representative when he said to you you said the orders came from Letlapa Mphahlele, just before that you said the orders were issued in 1992, 93 by APLA Director of Operations, Comrade Letlapa Mphahlele and now your evidence is that you parted with Mehi in 1991, how could he tell you about the orders to be issued the following year?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Rasta arrived and he said to me:  "You know I've been given orders to command you.  Know that we are going to attack."  All this happened in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  And also you were, the TRC wrote to you and asked you questions
"Who gave you orders to commit the said offences? Give full names, contactable addresses of such person."
Your response was that it was Mr Letlapa Mphahlele.  And again you were asked:
"Upon whose approval did you commit the said offences?  Give full details."
You again said:
"Mr Letlapa Mphahlele, APLA Commander."

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Yes, Sir.  After knowing who the person was who issued out an order, I asked what his position was and I was told and that is why in my application I indicated that the superior person is him who gave out orders, because my immediate Commander told me:  "All what you are doing has been ordered by our superior."

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you know this farm?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I knew the farm on the 20th.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Have you ever been to that farm before?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No, I went to that farm on the day of the reconnaissance, a day before the attack.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you direct the taxi driver to the farm?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I was directing.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you identify the farm as a target?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No, my Commander identified the farm.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why did you answer to the TRC on their request on page 6, paragraph 2
"The target was identified by myself"?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Yes, what I'm explaining is that we went to that area on the day of the attack but I had been with my Commander to that area, now that is why I directed the driver, it's because I had been there with the Commander.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why did you identify that farm, there's about 100 farms in the vicinity of Virginia and even at Theunissen, why that particular farm, why was that one chosen?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I think the appropriate person to respond to that question is my Commander, he identified the place

JUDGE DE JAGER: But unfortunately, I can't call him, he's deceased and I haven't got that art or power to call up people who've departed from earth, so could you tell us why?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I think he noticed that it was an important place to be identified.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I just come in there?  When this name Letlapa Mphahlele was mentioned to you, did you know who Rasta was talking about?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: When I joined the organisation I was told who the leaders were.

ADV SANDI: Was anything mentioned about Letlapa Mphahlele?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Can you please clarify this question?

ADV SANDI: You say when you joined the organisation, you were told who the leaders were, now my question to you is, was anything mentioned to you about Letlapa Mphahlele?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I was told that he is one of the top leaders.

ADV SANDI: Were you told whether he occupied any specific position in the organisation?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: What position was that?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I was told that he was the Deputy to the High Commander.

ADV SANDI: And who was said to be the High Commander?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It was Siabelo Pama.

ADV SANDI: I'm trying to find out from you when you mentioned this name, Letlapa Mphahlele, you're not mentioning a name which you may have come across in prison, don't you have discussions in prison amongst yourselves?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I was still outside when I came to know this name.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

JUDGE DE JAGER: While on that, the only PAC people you ever met were Rasta and Mehi?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: There are many people within the township, the PAC people, but the important ones are those I've mentioned.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why didn't you make sure that some of the PAC members accompanied you on this mission?  Now you're taking two strangers with, they're not even - you don't know whether they're PAC members?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I've explained already that my task was to organise transport.  The person who brought the two, was the Commander, I don't know why.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You had no meetings, you didn't have a branch at Virginia?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were the two important in Virginia, Rasta and Mehi, because you said you were recruited by Sibande, if I remember well, why were these two now important?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I think the two people that I've mentioned, the person who recruited me and the person who ordered me, those were the two important people.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were they important, what positions did they hold, other than accompanying you to the crime, the scene of crime?  What was their importance?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: They were important in the sense that they showed to me the aspirations, or they told me about the aspirations of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you be shown by Sibande, because that's the man who recruited you and told you how important this organisation was?  How could you join an organisation and thereafter know about its importance?  You must know up front what the importance of that organisation is, wouldn't that be logical?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: My Lord, that is why I ...(end of tape)
people who are important are those who advised me, the one who recruited me and the one who gave me orders.

CHAIRPERSON: Other than the orders, what position did they hold within the PAC or the Task Force, as you refer to it?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I just know that they were members of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: No look, they are important people to you, they told you about the organisation.  They should have said:  "Look, I hold this position, therefore I speak in authority when I do so to you."  They were just members of the Task Force and you were satisfied about that?  Okay, let's start from Sibande.  He introduces you to Rasta and Mehi, what did he say these people were within the PAC, or within the organisation?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: What Sibande told me was that:  "Man, I am bringing these two people to you, they are also members of the organisation.  This one is a member of APLA."

CHAIRPERSON: How long after he had recruited you in 1990, did he introduce you to these two?