Human Rights Violation Hearings — Piet Retief — 1997-05-21

DINGI S NGWENYA: I can say that at that time it wasn't very important for one to belong to any particular political organisation, but there were certain people who made it a very important issue. Belonging to some political organisation became a very important issue to some and that's what led to the conflict, because to us it wasn't that important.  We used to know that there were certain political organisations but that differences between them weren't any big issue as far as we were concerned at that time.

RUSSELL ALLY: Your late son, was he in any way involved in this conflict, identified by anyone as part of that conflict that was taking place?

DINGI S NGWENYA: I wouldn't know because when he left or maybe with his friends one of them pointed him out, I don't know.  I've got no idea. So you're not sure as to whether when your son was shot that this was a deliberate plan to actually killing him or that he happened to be at a place that was attacked on that particular day.  What's your feeling about this?

DINGI S NGWENYA: The way that the gunfire took place on that day the rumours that circulated later on was that they wanted Mr Thabete to be shot on that particular day and when they didn't get Mr Thabete, they came across the youth who were roaming around the streets and they were shot at random.

RUSSELL ALLY: This Mr Thabete who they wanted to shoot, tell us a little bit about him and why.

DINGI S NGWENYA: According to the rumours they say he was a staunch member of the ANC, that's why he had to be shot.

RUSSELL ALLY: And this place, this tavern that you speak about where your son was shot, was this a place that he, this Mr Thabete visited on occasion? Did you have any knowledge about that?

DINGI S NGWENYA: The tavern is next to Mr Thabete. Mr Thabete is just a house below and the tavern is a little bit further up.

RUSSELL ALLY: So your son happened to be an unfortunate victim of this conflict and just happened to be at the tavern on that particular day. Is that not your understanding?

DINGI S NGWENYA: I think his Brother Tulani can explain because they were together at that time.  He can elaborate on the reasons as to why they were there.

RUSSELL ALLY: I think that you did give some explanation. The other thing I want to ask you, in your statement you mention Pla Kezwa who.., can you tell us a little bit more about this Kezwa.

DINGI S NGWENYA: When I first heard about Keswa it was at the Piet Retief Court where there was an allegation that Kezwa is the one who killed my son and I later heard at Nelspruit at the amnesty committee that he's the one who shot my son.  e was also present amongst the assailants but the one who shot my son was Keswa.  I even saw him, he told me and explained how he worked in Thandukukhanya or how he killed members of the community in Thandukukhanya.

RUSSELL ALLY: And Kezwa has applied for amnesty? He's one of those who appeared in Nelspruit.

DINGI S NGWENYA: Yes that is correct, he's one of the people who put in an application for amnesty and we were perturbed as to how could he ask for amnesty because that was cold-blooded murder.  He had an intention to kill and now he was asking for amnesty.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did you give evidence at the amnesty hearing?

DINGI S NGWENYA: No we were never afforded the opportunity to air our views.

RUSSELL ALLY: You were not informed beforehand that Keswa was going to be appearing and that as the family you could be present in the amnesty hearing?

DINGI S NGWENYA: I was present at the Amnesty Committee in Nelspruit but we were not afforded the opportunity to address him or to air our views as he was afforded the opportunity to air his own views or ask for amnesty.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sorry for pushing this issue Mr Ngwenya but I would just like to know, did you have any legal representation, any lawyer present at the amnesty hearing?

DINGI S NGWENYA: No I never had any legal representation, I just went there with my family. We had no legal representation.

RUSSELL ALLY: How did you get to know about this amnesty hearing?

DINGI S NGWENYA: I received some documentation or a letter that I should appear at Nelspruit.  All those who were victimised or involved were called to attend the Amnesty Committee.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you Mr Ngwenya, I'm sure that you will in due course be hearing from the Amnesty Committee and what decision they make with regard to these amnesty applications. But thanks for coming to speak to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Ngwenya roughly how many people died that night?

DINGI S NGWENYA: Five people died in different streets.  There was one in my street and another one in another street, a different street. Some got injured. There were five all in all.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And all those people were said to be killed by the squad where Keswa was being or did you know  a number one?

DINGI S NGWENYA: Yes that is correct. They all died on the same day and were killed by the same assailants.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You I wonder whether I heard you well, you were saying that should Keswa be granted amnesty this may not be acceptable or may not be easily accepted by the community.  Am I correct?

DINGI S NGWENYA: Yes I did say that.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When you say so are you saying that this is the common view held by the people in the township?

DINGI S NGWENYA: I think that is the view of the community because that is how they felt when this took place because it's quite a number of people who died, it's not only my son.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You referred to people in this hall today who were a part of those people who were killing others.  Did I hear you well?

DINGI S NGWENYA: I wouldn't know whether they are present because I wouldn't see them, the hall is full of people.  I wouldn't be able to see their faces

THOMAS MANTHATA: I see but I thought I heard you talking about an element of fear, you know within this hall referring to almost an atmosphere of insecurity in the community.

DINGI S NGWENYA: Do you mean with regard to this incident? Yes there is an element of fear because we do not trust each other especially after the incident took place and when we heard as to who the perpetrators as well as the people who sent the perpetrators, we heard that they were amongst our own community.  They were members of our own community and they also were members of the neighbourhood and we don't know what made them turn against us.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Perhaps, can one find out whether.., okay we have heard those people that.., it is alleged that the IFP shot those people, did you at any stage hear or learn about people who could have been similarly killed by the ANC in this community in the same fashion as these others who died at the Tavern?

DINGI S NGWENYA: No I have no knowledge thereof.

THOMAS MANTHATA: This general fear in the community, is there anything being done to address it, say from the church? From the Council members, from the mayor, from the business sector.  Is there anybody who's talking about the general fear in the community?

DINGI S NGWENYA: No we were still in the process of negotiating. With regard to what you said, whether there is a person that we are speaking to.  What I mean to say is there is no such a person except today that we have been given this opportunity to talk and we do go to churches where we get some encouragement but besides that there's nothing or no-one.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In short you are saying that the churches talk about these things, just at their services but the churches have never come together to talk about these things as they affect the community?

DINGI S NGWENYA: No not as yet.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.