Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

WITNESS:   We managed to acquire cars which were to be used.  Those were four Kombis, one 4 x 4, a very big lorry and some other cars which I don't remember.  However they were to be used by the Caprivi trainees in the different areas to organise meetings of the IFP.  Those who were trained for contra-mobilisation were supposed to work in collaboration with the chairperson of Cultural or Traditional Affairs and those who were in the defensive group were supposed to investigate and find that who were troublemakers in IFP areas or those which were controlled by the ANC.  May correct when I refer to ANC, during these times it was UDF.  Therefore the groups had to report back to me and I will report to the committee which was formed.  However, it didn't happen like that, because I was not in good terms with Mr M Z Khumalo.  When I was asking about the involvement of these men he said that there is nothing that we are going to do, because these men were people who were responsible for the training and they're the people who sponsored us, therefore if we drop them, it means we won't be successful or there's nothing for us to do.  This was my first and last meeting and he never called me when going to meetings.  He left me behind.  After some time as they used to come to get their salaries at the IFP offices at Ulundi, it was discovered that they were also not in

MR MACADAM: /good

MR MACADAM: 2B good terms with the ZPs, which were the real police.  There had been some conflict between them.  Things crumbled up to a stage where Brigadier Mathe had to call a meeting where he has to unite the Caprivi trainees and the ZP police.   However, there was a mistake and he said if they don't stay alert they will be injured, seriously injured, because these people were extensively trained.  It continued up to ... (inaudible) ... where there was a need to find another place where they could meet.  Therefore we established the Mkuze camp.  The Mkuze camp accommodated the contra-mobilisation group and the defensive group.  That was their base.  In that base the commander was Major Langeni.  As to how he became a commander, I don't.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... Mathe, whom you mentioned, to what branch of the police or the army did they belong?

WITNESS:   Brigadier and Langeni were in the KwaZulu Police.  Mathe was the head.  At the very same time he was the member of the Central Committee of the IFP.

MR MACADAM: Major Langeni?

WITNESS:   Major Langeni was in charge of the VIP protection unit at Ulundi.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ...?

WITNESS:   Yes, in the KwaZulu Police.

MR MACADAM: You mentioned in your evidence now about unifying the trainees and the KwaZulu Police.  Was anything concrete done about that at that stage?

WITNESS:   I will say from basic training all the trainees were kept in one place.  Coming back to the main training, during the 18 weeks they were trained in one place and they received the same training.  They were trained to use all the different types of firearms which they normally use in the army,

MR MACADAM: /firearms

MR MACADAM: 2B firearms which are normally used by soldiers.

MR MACADAM: Once they had returned from the Caprivi and they were back in KwaZulu-Natal, was there an attempt made to place these persons into the KwaZulu Police?

WITNESS:   We had a slight problem, because since they were actively involved, we had to find a way to avoid them getting arrested.  Therefore myself and M Z Khumalo went to meet Brigadier Mathe to try and make some arrangements that they get appointment certificates.  In those appointment certificates there shouldn't be written that they are police constables, there shall be written that they are investigators in order to keep it a secrets, so that when they travel around or get - found in the roadblocks they will be asked to explain where they obtained these arms, as to where were they taking the arms or where did they get the arms in order to avoid arrest.

MR MACADAM: To avoid being arrested?

WITNESS:   Because the kind of work that we were doing was not in line with what the police were doing, therefore if they were to be found by police committing those crimes, killing people, they were to be arrested.  If they were to be found with AK47 in their cars going up and down, they were to be arrested, therefore they needed something that will show that they were also policemen, so they had to create their own stories as to where they were arrested or whatever.

MR MACADAM: [Breaking in recording] ... arranging this that they would have ... (intervention)

MR MACADAM: MR   (?): Mr Chairman, may I interrupt.  I have a problem here.  My learned friend and I'm sure he doesn't do it on purpose, starts talking before his microphone comes on.  I lose every single first part of every single

MR MACADAM: /question

MR MACADAM: 2B question he asks and I really don't ... (incomplete)

MR MACADAM: If we could just take you back.  Who exactly arranged for these certificates to be issued reflecting that these persons were investigators?

WITNESS:   It was arranged by Brigadier Mathe.  The Brigadier has to send this to the person who was in charge of keeping those certificates.  That was Colonel Luthuli.  I and Colonel - I myself and Colonel Luthuli has to arrange for the production of such certificates.  I had to give him the names.  I gave them - we gave them their appointment certificates at the offices in Ulundi.

MR MACADAM: 3A [Break in recording] ... activity which you became involved in together with these trainees?

WITNESS:   If I remember well, the trainees were deployed.  Some went to the police station at Mpumalanga to work at ZPs.  Others went to their respective places where they work.  That's the few that I can remember.

MR MACADAM: Did you at a certain stage proceed to the Hammarsdale area and in particular to a suburb of Hammarsdale known as Mpumalanga?

WITNESS:   I will say I was born and bred in Mpumalanga, therefore my going to the place was because I was sent by Mr M Z Khumalo, because it was discovered that the IFP in Mpumalanga is divided into two.  There were those who called themselves as Theloweni(?) and the second one was called Inkatha.  The Inkatha which refers to itself as Theloweni is the one which was busy killing people at Mpumalanga.  The real Inkatha didn't like the idea of killing people or burning houses, so when I arrived in Mpumalanga I went to stay with the group which called themselves Inkatha and not Theloweni.  At those times the people were fighting,

MR MACADAM: /burning

MR MACADAM: 3A burning each other's houses and my task was to unite the people who were fighting in that area.  Unfortunately the Theloweni group didn't accept me as I used to be an ANC member.  The leader of the Theloweni group didn't trust me and it ended where we had to be called to Ulundi to a cabinet.  Myself and also the leader of the Theloweni group and the Inkatha leader, that's where we intensively discussed as to why were we doing that as we were born from the same home or family.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... actually eventually transpired in that area where you yourself was involved?