Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can you explain why, and you're lawyer can check this, when you gave your statement to the police under Section 29, shortly after the bomb blast, nowhere in that statement do you make any reference to the Kewtown Youth Movement?  The only organisation that you refer to is the UDF.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I understand what you have asked.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Would you care to explain to the Committee why your statement continuously refers to the United Democratic Front and nowhere refers to the Kewtown Youth Movement.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because to me, the Kewtown Youth Movement and the UDF were one and the same organisation.  That is how it appeared to me.  That is why I keep on using UDF.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, I'm quite interested in the fact that - look at, for example, page 150 at bundle B, I'll read you one or two sentences.  You say that during your conversation with Mr van Zyl, you mentioned
"During our discussion I mentioned the following names to him as members of the UDF."
and then you mention names such as Peter Williams, Bruce Malgas and so on and so forth.  Now Mr Slang van Zyl, who makes a statement at round about the same time as you did - you recall you were in detention at about the same time?  You didn't know that, but anyway you can accept it from me you were.  His statement continuously refers to the Kewtown Youth Movement, but yours continuously refers to the UDF.  Can you explain why that happened?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Once again, to me the Kewtown Youth Movement and the UDF were one and the same organisation.  To me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you said in your evidence-in-chief that it was up to you to decide where to put the bomb, is that correct?  Mr van Zyl didn't tell you to put the bomb in the hall, it was a decision that you yourself made, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, because I said that those were the places where they held their meetings and we wanted to destroy their meeting places, so that they could not longer conduct meetings there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Sorry, I didn't get the last sentence, who holds meetings there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The reason why I placed the bomb in the hall was because that was the place where they held their meetings and we didn't want them to be able to have their meetings any longer.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But Mr van Zyl didn't tell you to put the bomb in the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You could have put it into the boardroom if you wanted.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Or you could have put it into the kindergarten?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you chose the hall, because, why?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because that's where they held their meetings and if the place was destroyed, they couldn't hold meetings any longer and  they couldn't continue with their activities.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was your understanding that the hall needed to be destroyed, or that the people just had to be given a fright?  What was your understanding?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't understand.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you agree with me there's a difference between giving somebody a fright and destroying a hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I understand that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you agree with me, if you just want to give people a fright, you don't have to put the bomb in the room that they meet?  Do you agree with me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So why did you put the bomb in the room where they meet?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot respond to that, to me it was the place where they always held their meetings and so I would be able to intimidate them, if the bomb went off there they would never again have a meeting in the building.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Wasn't your evidence that you would never have agreed to do this job if there was any chance that somebody might be injured or killed?  Was that your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is what I said from the beginning, no-one was to be injured, no-one was to be killed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, but as I understood your evidence that was a rule that you yourself laid down.  You would never have agreed to do this job if somebody could be injured or killed, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That's correct, I said to Mr van Zyl: "No-one should be killed and no-one should be injured."

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm not asking you what Mr van Zyl said, I'm asking you what you said.  You said you said that to Mr van Zyl, you would not do this job unless you yourself were sure that no-one would be injured or killed, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now if you wanted to make sure that no-one was going to be injured or killed, wouldn't you agree with me there were many other more safe places to put the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I chose the hall, I cannot give you any other story, I chose the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well why didn't you set the bomb to be placed at an outside wall to go off at midnight?  Wouldn't you the have been sure that nobody could be injured or killed?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Once again I will tell you, I placed it in the hall so that they would not conduct their meetings there anymore, that is why I chose the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, okay, so that explains the location.  What about the time that the bomb was supposed to go off?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know when the bomb went off.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, but you were going to make sure that no-one was going to be injured or killed, so you would be very interested in the time that Mr van Zyl was going to explode the bomb.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr van Zyl told me that we are going to ensure that all the people are out of the building, then the bomb will be detonated, and I believed them.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but the natural question to then ask is, what time is this bomb going to be exploded, do you agree with me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know what time it went off.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm not asking you that question, I'm asking you in the light of your evidence, that you were doing everything to make sure that no-one could be injured, you would have asked Mr van Zyl: "Mr van Zyl, when are we going to explode this bomb?"

ISGAK HARDIEN: I did ask him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And what did he say?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He said when everybody has left the hall or left the building, we have to ensure that that is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Didn't it strike you as strange that the bomb wasn't going to be exploded late at night when you would be absolutely sure there was no-one around?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why not?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot answer you.  They told me all the people must be out of the building, then they will press the thing, and I believed what they said.  I cannot go and say anything else.  I believed what they told me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is it your evidence that you did not tell Mr van Zyl what time the Kewtown youth would be holding their meeting?  Is that your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It could be that I told him that the meeting will be from 7 to 8 o'clock, or whatever the time is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No please listen to my question.  Did you tell Mr van Zyl what time people would be meeting in the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes I could have told him that, because he doesn't know the times of the meetings, so if it so, I could have said to him, yes the meeting will start at seven and it will probably finish at 8 or 9 o'clock.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you sure ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because he doesn't know the times when they have meetings there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you sure it's not your evidence that you only told him that the meeting would be held at night, but you didn't give him a precise time?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Like I'm saying again, I cannot recall.  If I said 9 o'clock, it is possible.  I cannot recall if I said seven or eight o'clock, but I told him the meeting's going to begin, we have to make sure that everybody's out and we will ensure that everybody's out and he said to me: "Do not worry, when everybody is out  the bomb will explode."