Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR WILLS: Thank you.  When you were in the room, was there anyone of you, anyone of you who demonstrated some minute, minuscule of mercy and tried to get Taylor to stop beating this woman mercilessly?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I can recall, no.

MR WILLS: You indicated that she died in your presence?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.  I think she was dead.

MR WILLS: Describe her death.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: She began to perspire and then she collapsed and fell over.

MR WILLS: How long was this period from her commencing to perspire to her falling over?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It was a very brief while.

MR WILLS: Seconds?  Just try and estimate, you were there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think it was reasonably hot in the room, she may have begun to perspire even before then.  It appeared as if she was fainting, she collapsed and fell over, it all happened very quickly.

MR WILLS: Are you trained in first aid?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: What did you do, if anything, to try and revive her?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I did not do anything, I left the room.

MR WILLS: There was nobody there who was really medically qualified?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.   I know that Wasserman ...

MR LAX: Didn't you think, sorry, let him just finish the answer.  What about Wasserman?  You were going to say something and then he interrupted you?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Wasserman was a Medic, but he wasn't there.  He had first aid training, he was the only person on our section that I recall that had medic training.

MR WILLS: Was Wasserman not called and asked to render assistance to try and resuscitate her?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I can recall sir, no.

MR WILLS: Was any action taken by the members present to try and save this woman's life?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Before I left the room, I think Mr Basson felt for a pulse rate and I think that he said that there was no pulse and I then assumed that she died, and I left the room.

MR WILLS: You say you felt very upset?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, I was upset, yes.

MR WILLS: Why were you upset?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: A woman had died in our presence, during interrogation, naturally I would have been upset.

MR WILLS: Yes, you are obviously therefore relating the actions that you and the other members were involved in, to her death?  You felt responsible for her death in other words?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It may have led to her death.  The stress and the circumstances under which she found herself, may have contributed to her death.

MR WILLS: Yes, now you obviously are going to be consistent I presume with your other colleagues, where you conspicuously don't remember the clothing  that the deceased was wearing?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't recall what she wore at all.

MR WILLS: And neither can you remember what shoes she had on?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: And neither can you recall whether she had a jersey on or not?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I really cannot recall what she was wearing, whether it was shoes, a dress, a jersey, I cannot recall what she wore.

MR WILLS: And neither can you remember that she had a bag?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I have just stated that, yes.

MR WILLS: And neither can you remember whether she was wearing a ring?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that.

MR WILLS: And neither can you remember whether or not she had panties on?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall, I didn't check to see if she was wearing underwear.

MR WILLS: And obviously you weren't present when the water was thrown over her?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when there was, or was there any, did she urinate at all?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that, I didn't see it.

MR WILLS: Just in relation to the way she fell, there has been evidence that she grabbed her chest, do you remember that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And how was she sitting immediately prior to her death?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: She sat on her buttocks on the floor.  She was seated on the floor.

MR WILLS: What was the position of her legs?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think her legs were tucked in next to her.

MR WILLS: And then essentially she must have just rolled over?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct, that is how I recall it.

MR WILLS: Well, I must comment that I am pleased that at least you were upset.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she wearing spectacles at all or anything like that, can you remember?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that she wore spectacles.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she blindfolded?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You weren't present when she was taken, you went home when her body was taken obviously?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall specifically whether I went home, but a short while afterwards I departed, I think I went to C.R. Swart and then I must have gone home.

MR WILLS: You would have come out of the room, it was a big shock to you, you would have obviously discussed this with the first colleague that you came into contact with, not so?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I don't believe that I discussed it with anyone.  I don't think I would have told anyone that she had collapsed and died, to me it was quite a shock.  I cannot recall discussing it specifically with anyone.

MR WILLS: And you cannot recall the positions of the other people whom we know present?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Can you remember if Mr Baker was in the room when she died?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't think, no sir, he came in, he didn't come into the room, he'd come to the door on occasions.  He wasn't in the room when she died.

MR WILLS: Look, it is quite an important piece of evidence that has come out so far, can you recall where Mr Mbane was when you walked out of the room?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No sir, I cannot recall that.

MR WILLS: You have no idea whatsoever?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR WILLS: From the previous application that you and I are involved in, the one involving Ndaba and Shabalala, something struck me as being quite odd, that when these people were shot from behind, you will recall the evidence, you haven't testified yet, but you were there, they were shot from behind at very close range?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was not present at the shooting sir.

MR WILLS: Okay, I am suggesting you were present when the evidence was given.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Okay, sorry to for that misunderstanding, they were shot at close range from behind and then to make sure that they died, they were dead, a bullet was put into the side of each of the deceased's heads?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I heard that evidence, yes.

MR WILLS: Yes, now it seems that it is probably a common practice amongst people who make a living out of, that is a bit strong I suppose, who are involved in the livelihood of killing people, to make sure that they are dead and I put it to you that the chances are that if you want to make sure somebody is dead, you would put another shot in her just to make sure that that was the case.  I am not suggesting that you were present at any time when Ms Khubeka  was shot.  Is that a common practice amongst Security Branch people, just to make sure, if they want to kill someone, and I am not referring to this case at all, if you want to make sure that somebody is dead, you put another bullet into her or into him, as was the case at the Tugela River?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think yes, yes Chairperson, it is possible that they would have done so in order to ensure when killing someone, to ensure that this person wouldn't get up and walk away to fire another shot into the head of such a person.  Some people would do that.