Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-07

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And he further testified that the whole planning of the killing was done at Mr Mkansi's house in Beirut and you were present.

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: There's no truth in that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Mr Chairman, I'm moving finally to B, in conclusion.
	To be fair to you what I'm putting to you is what I get from the newspaper cuttings which I will show you when we are through to be fair to you.  It is reported in the newspaper cutting, Sowetan dated September, 17th, 1992 that you stated that Molope had to be killed because he had given evidence before the Smith Commission to the effect that it is the then President Mangope who ordered the killing of the Winterveld people, the Winterveld Massacre.

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: That's not true Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In conclusion Mr Mokobojane, as the then commander of the Audi region, were you able to establish how many bullets killed Mr Molope?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: I cannot recall clearly as to how many bullets were used but I can say that it was a lot of bullets and he had many wounds that showed that many bullets were used to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you at any stage know the number of bullets that killed the deceased, and have you just forgotten or have you never known?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: I did know but at this stage I just cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mrs Molope testified she mentioned 21 bullets, would that ring a bell with you?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, I might agree with her on that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry Mr Mpshe, Exhibit A, the newspaper clipping entitled
"Mangope Ordered Hit"
Do you know from what newspaper it comes from?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, ...[inaudible] note that but I will ascertain very soon and I will make it known.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Just one or two questions Mr Chairman.
	You were a loyal servant of the Boputhatswana Government, weren't you?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And as a result of your loyalty you were promoted?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You were also, prior to your promotion, the deceased Colonel Molope's assistant, is that correct?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you were responsible, or you were involved in the same kinds of activities as he was involved in?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you participate in the Commission of Inquiry into the Winterveld Massacre, the Commission presided over by Mr Justice Smith?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, Sir, I did.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you recall what the response of the community was when Brigadier Molope was promoted at that particular Commission?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: No, Sir, I'm not aware.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you recall that the community or the lawyers representing the community at that Commission of Inquiry withdrew when Molope was promoted to Brigadier?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Please repeat your question.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Perhaps I phrased it inelegantly.  At the Commission of Inquiry, the lawyers representing the community withdrew from the Commission on the news that Brigadier, or that Molope had been promoted to Brigadier, do you recall that?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, I recall that but I do not recall what the community said, but I just know that he was promoted to being a Brigadier when he was ...  What I'm trying to say is that when he left, he left Audi to Mafeking promoted as a Brigadier.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molope, do you have any questions you wish to put to the witness?

MR MOLOPE: Mr Mokobojane, the dead Brigadier Molope came to your house first?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes.  I said that he came to my house but I did not know where he was from.

MR MOLOPE: He said to you he was from Mafeking?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, he said to me: "I arrived yesterday from Mafeking but I found nobody at home".

MR MOLOPE: It was on a Saturday and he said that he had arrived the Friday?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: From there on you went to him to buy vegetables?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: That's correct.

MR MOLOPE: And then you went separate ways?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: That's correct, we separated right at the vegetable stall.

MR MOLOPE: Did you know that he has been having a house in Winterveld?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: No, I was not aware of that at all.

MR MOLOPE: Did he have a phone in Winterveld, Mr Molope, did he have a phone?  Did he have a telephone?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: How would I know if I did not know that he had a house there?

MR MOLOPE: What I'm trying to say is, the time he was a District Commander, didn't you know that he was staying in Winterveld?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: I have already said that I never knew that he had some house in Winterveld.  I only learnt when he was hurt, when I was taken there.  That is what I've already said.

MR MOLOPE: After his death you said that you went to the scene of the crime, is that what you're saying?  After having heard that he died, did you see where this happened?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: I was taken there to there to see exactly where this happened, hoping that he would still be there, but he was already taken to hospital.

MR MOLOPE: Do you know this Mkansi that we are talking about?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, I know him very well.

MR MOLOPE: Mr Mokobojane, despite the fact that you say that you don't know these men ...

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, I'm saying that.

MR MOLOPE: I would agree with you but I want to say to you there is a possibility that these men, there was a middleman between yourself and these men.  ...[indistinct] you never had contact with them and that person is the one whom you fed with information and he was working with them because I know where Mr Mkansi stays and he is a prominent figure in Beirut.
	The fact that you said that you were not working with this guy might be true but you were working with them via Mr Mkansi, and that is all I have to say.

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Do you want me to respond by saying that you are saying that I was giving instructions or I was informed by Mkansi about Molope's ways and then I would evade the whole thing, is that what you are saying to me, that I was fully aware via Mkansi?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Mr Molope does not want to respond to that question, I think that is the end of his questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one Mr Chairman.
	Sir, somebody was arrested and sentenced to 15 years for the death of Brigadier Molope, are you aware of that?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: I'm not aware of that Sir.

ADV MOTATA: Mzemela is the name of the person who was arrested by the then Boputhatswana Police and apparently sentenced to 15 years, you haven't heard of that at all?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: No.  I heard about Mzemela during the Commission hearing when he was incriminating me and Mkansi, that we were working with him and that was not true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps Mr Chairman, I may come in here to assist.  David Mzemela was in jail at Rooigrond for something else, not for this incident and he was allegedly recruited to carry out the jobs outside when he was in prison.

ADV MOTATA: I would apologise to you Mr Mokobojane.  In any event, did you know the police, since you were also in the Police Force, who were investigating the death of Brigadier Molope?

DIALE JERRY MOKOBOJANE: Yes, that's correct Sir.