Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He was not protecting me, he told me that there was another assignment for myself and Geoffrey Bosigo and that particular mission we should be involved in, we should be excluded in this Chesterville incident.  That was the reason for me not to be involved.  That was the only reason he gave to me.

MR CORNELIUS: The fact that there was a shooting at the scene, that was hearsay evidence that you heard, is that correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Why do you say in your evidence-in-chief
"If my memory serves me well, they went to the place and heard gunshots."
Are you in doubt about what hearsay evidence you heard?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am saying I knew that shooting was going to take place before transporting these people to the incident.  I knew what was going to happen.  As we were waiting there under the bridge, plus-minus 30 minutes, I heard gunshots.  That's what I'm saying.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you hear the - now the gunshots you heard, was it a single shot, was it bursts of gunshots, what?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As I've already explained, I heard that the people were firing.

MR CORNELIUS: I beg your pardon?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot demonstrate, but I heard that they were firing.

MR CORNELIUS: I refer you to page 85 of your application, approximately 20 lines from the top you say
"Magabe - Magage, Radebe and the new recruits were issued with AK47 firearms by Major de Kock."

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question.
MR CORNELIUS
"Magage and Radebe and the new recruits were issued with AK47 firearms by Major de Kock."
Do you see that?  Do you see that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I'm still looking.  Yes, I can see that.

MR CORNELIUS: Now here you say that the firearms were issued by de Kock.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: In your evidence you said it was Nortje.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Between the two of them, I said it could have been Nortje or de Kock who handed over the AK47.

MR CORNELIUS: No, you mustn't adapt your evidence as you carry on.  Was it Nortje or de Kock?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As I've already explained, I did not change anything, I said I cannot remember, but Nortje was also involved in the distributing of firearms.  That is what I said, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Why do you use the plural, AK47 firearms, why don't you here mention about the small arms and pistols?  You create the impression that there was an issue of AK47 firearms.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said one AK47 rifle, not two, not three or more.  I am still maintaining that.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, but why does your application say the contrary?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am referring to only AK47, I am not sure, I do not know why there is plural.

MR CORNELIUS: It can only be plural, Mr Nofomela, because at the time when you drew this application you referred to AK47 firearms, in the plural.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am referring to only one firearm, I think it is a typing error.  But I am only talking about one AK47 rifle, the one that saw, not more than that.

MR CORNELIUS: But then your statement doesn't make sense at all, then it would be "Magage, Radebe and the new recruits were issued with one AK47 firearm", I mean that's nonsensical.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As I've already explained that this was a typing error, because they could not be given one firearm.  As I've already explained that the others were given pistols.  One of them was given an AK47, but I do not know and I cannot even remember who handed over that AK47 rifle.

MR CORNELIUS: You see, Mr Nofomela, in terms of the Act, you must made a full disclosure of all facts, now why didn't you disclose the issue of the pistols?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am mentioning it now, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Do you want to amend your application?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am amending it when I say they were not given many AK47 rifles, that was only one firearm.  That is a correct.  And the fact that I have omitted that they were given the pistols, I am also amending that.  That is true, they were given pistols.

MR CORNELIUS: Why didn't you mention in your application that Nortje was involved with the issue of the firearms?   You were certain in your application that it was de Kock.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Maybe it was forgotten at the time, I had forgotten about it.

MR CORNELIUS: But how come you remember it now, what has changed since the time you did this application and now?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It is because I thought widely.  As I was making this application, even my legal representative requested from the Commission that we did not manage to do everything in time because it was very difficult for him to be paid to come and represent me.  So there was not enough time for consultation, we could not be able to elaborate on some issues the way that we were supposed to do.  That is Mr de Wet, he told the Commission about our situation while we were doing consultations.  That is one of the issues that was a result of that, that all the points here are not as reflected as they were supposed to be.

MR CORNELIUS: So are you saying this is a mistake of your legal representative?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is not a mistake from my legal representative.  I am saying because we did not have enough time for consultation, we were doing things in a hurry and some of the things could have escaped my mind.

MR CORNELIUS: According to you, when the instructions were issued to kill the comrades, what was said?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As I've already said, de Kock told me that those people were going to be shot at.

MR CORNELIUS: But you weren't present when the instructions were - the so-called instructions were given?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: De Kock told me not to be involved because that was going to happen and he still wanted to use me on another mission, though he did not tell me about it.

MR CORNELIUS: You weren't present when the instructions were issued to kill the comrades ...(intervention)

MR RAMAWELE: Mr Chairman, I think the evidence - according to the evidence, the applicant has never said that de Kock instructed the members to shoot, he said that Mr de Kock told him that the people were going to get shot.  So he never testified about the instruction that was given to the people to be shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps we can clarify that, because that's what Mr Cornelius was dealing with.
	Did you hear Mr de Kock give any instructions to the group that went into Chesterville?  - about shooting the targets.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That did not happen in my presence, but he told me about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	So you don't know what the firsthand instructions to the members were?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I did not hear.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you.  It could be that it was said to you that you should not go because people could get shot.  In other words, that he was protecting you.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Sir, when I was responding to some questions you told me not to speculate.  I am telling you that he was not protecting me, he was just telling me not to be there because I was to be involved in some assignment.  Why did he not protect all of them, why did he choose me to protect?

MR CORNELIUS: Let me see if I can clear it up for you.  At that time the situation in the townships were very explosive, it was dangerous times in '86.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not understand what was dangerous, where?

MR CORNELIUS: Well there were Self-Protection Units running around, fighting, there were A-teams, there were comrades, there were lots of dangerous situations in the townships at that time.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is true.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.  And Mr de Kock could have meant that you should not go with because you could get hurt.