Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, she didn't come.

MR VALLY: I want to point out one thing to you on page 9, 10th of February 1991, Mr Mekgwe, you say Mekgwe is abducted from Methodist manse.  Mr Mekgwe did give evidence before us and he now says that he left and did not appear at the trial of his own accord.  Did you hear that evidence?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, I heard that.

MR VALLY: If you go onto page 10, now you talk about April 1995 investigation into the murder of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat is reopened, two months later the investigation is closed down as the police claim no further, new evidence has been uncovered and they are unable to proceed further.
 Before dealing with that entry, in terms of the records we have from you and our discussion with you, you came across the medical records for Jerry Richardson and Katiza Cebekhulu whilst you were clearing your brother's surgery of his official records?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Did you then send a memo to the police referring to these medical records and asking them to investigate this matter?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Well, we had given, as soon as I got these records I gave them to the investigating officers of that time.

MR VALLY: And who were they?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Colonel Henk Hesslinga, he was Colonel at that time and Major Moodley.

MR VALLY: Now, there was reference to a request apparently that the Richardson angle be investigated by the State Advocate, are you aware of that?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, I am not.

MR VALLY: Let's go on to April 1995.  You talk about the investigation being reopened.  When the investigation was reopened, do you know why it was reopened?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, at that time there was again these allegations appearing in the media and there were serious allegations and we approached Minister Sydney Mufamadi that the matter should be reinvestigated at that time.

MR VALLY: And who was assigned to reinvestigate this matter?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: It was Henk Hesslinga and senior Superintendent Moodley.

MR VALLY: The same persons again?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: The same people.

MR VALLY: I believe shortly after your brother's death, and tell me if you can remember this and what you can remember about it, there was a statement issued by the police to the effect that this murder was not political, do you recall this?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, I recall it very clearly.  It was I think on the 31st of January of 1989, I think it was in the newspaper The Star, where there is a statement by the police that robbery was the motive for my brother's death.

MR VALLY: So, you said the statement was made by Colonel Hesslinga?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, I don't think it was Colonel Hesslinga I think it was some police officer called Heartwell.

MR VALLY: Heartwell?  So this was four days after your brother's death a statement was issued by the police stating it was robbery?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct and by that time the money had not even been counted when they made this statement.  In fact, may I just add, that the Saturday night after the burial of my brother, two police officers I can't remember the names, came to the home to have a discussion with us and stated that they knew who the two murderers were, they were two Zulu young men and they had enough information about them, and this is also the time they informed us that robbery was the motive.

MR VALLY: Did you query this with them?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: I queried it later with Colonel Henk Hesslinga and Moodley.

MR VALLY: Was this after you found the medical records?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now, my last question relates to Mrs Albertina Sisulu.  Did you ever discuss with her the whole issue of your brother's murder, whether she had any view or any suspicion regarding the matter?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, I did discuss with Mrs Sisulu, but she apparently didn't know very much about what the reasons were.

MR VALLY: Thank you Dr Asvat.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, thank you.  Dr, your evidence in the main uses secondary sources as the basis of your information, am I correct?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: You do not have an independent verification of the data that you allude to here, is that right?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, I don't have except the fact of that statement made by Dlamini in court.

MR SEMENYA: Now, Dr, let me solicit your assistance here and I am trying to test a particular theory that begins to emerge in particular from the book by Bridgeland.
 If the story of sodomy was a conspiracy between Cebekhulu and Mrs Mandela, that it had no basis in fact at all, would it not be irrational Dr, that Mrs Mandela would then take Cebekhulu to a Dr to verify that the boy was sodomised?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: She would take Cebekhulu to be certified that he had been sodomised.

MR SEMENYA: What I mean is if both of them had conspired to lie about it, and they know it didn't happen, it is irrational to take the type of person to a Dr for a medical validation, is that right?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, that is right.

MR SEMENYA: That would be irrational, right?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: It would be irrational.

MR SEMENYA: Okay, now even if one looks at the other theory that begins to want to offer itself as an explanation, if the facts are correct that Bishop Verryn left for holiday on the 22nd of December, it is still irrational of Cebekhulu to complain of sexual assault around the 28th, wouldn't you say?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, definitely.

MR SEMENYA: It would be six days away from the date on which it would probably have occurred according to his version?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: So even those two theories have improbabilities in them, wouldn't you say?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is right.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

MR SEMENYA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any questions along there.

MRPETER SOLLER: Dr Asvat, Peter Soller on behalf of Mr Mbatha.  I gather Dr Asvat, that you found the greatest reluctance if I may put it that way, on the part of the police, both pre-1995 and post-1995 to assist you?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Well, I wouldn't say they didn't want to assist, they carried out an investigation, however, we believe that the investigation was incomplete.

MRPETER SOLLER: Can you indicate to the learned Commissioner and his panel, the basis for such belief?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Well, first of all Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela has never been questioned about my brother's murder.

MRPETER SOLLER: Do you know that as a fact?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes.  We have never, none of the officers have ever told us that they had questioned Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela about this matter.

MRPETER SOLLER: Anything else?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Basically it is very limited in the sense that they didn't investigate and they didn't present Dlamini's statement to the court as well.  You know where he makes the claim that R20 000-00 was offered by Mrs Mandela to commit the murder.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did you ever receive a satisfactory explanation as to why Mr Dlamini's statement was withheld from the court?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Well, all they said was that they didn't have enough evidence and they couldn't follow this up further.  They were very vague as to why they didn't pursue this matter further.

MRPETER SOLLER: Any other incidents which you can recount as to their failure to undertake their investigation properly?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Well, they haven't asked Mrs Albertina Sisulu as well, if she had any further knowledge as regard to my brother's murder.  And that is about it, I can't add more to that.

MRPETER SOLLER: What you are saying, can I say is the astonishing fact that the prime information providers have not even been consulted by the authorities?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MRPETER SOLLER: As it pleases you, thank you Mr Commissioner.

MRPETER SOLLER: .