Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

INTERPRETER: We request Mr Nosenga to speak out a bit louder so that we can interpret what he says.  Sometimes he swallows his words.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Nosenga, do you hear the request by the interpreters?  The interpreters are saying you speak very softly and at the end it's very difficult to get what you are saying because you swallow your words at the end of your sentences.  That makes it very difficult to interpret.  When you speak, please don't hurry, slow down a little bit.  Just speak freely and leisurely.

MR LOWIES: Now this hostel, was it on the side of the factories or Slovo Park or KwaMadala?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying it is in the middle of the township.  Madala is at Iscor.

MR LOWIES: And you were telling us still that the hostel was attacked and from there what happened, which route did you follow?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We regrouped and went back to the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Yes, I know that.  The question is not whether you regrouped, the question is, can you describe the route please.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We took the main road, I think it's a taxi route and we went down towards the firms.

MR LOWIES: Yes?  Now the main road, are you talking about Frikkie Meyer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know the name of the road.  I did indicate I'm not educated.

MR LOWIES: But it's a tarred road?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there are firms next to the tarred road and we have BP just there and a stop sign next to that area, and there's a section or an intersection indicating a route to Vanderbijlpark and other areas.

MR LOWIES: If I show you map, will you be able to indicate to us which route you took?
	Chair, if we may, with reference to Exhibit J, do so with your permission.  With your permission, Chairman, may I retract this question and request that it be dealt with by somebody else.  I'm not quite au fait with these facts and I think it would be better suited if I do not pursue the matter further myself.  So if it's not a problem, I would rather retract the question completely.
	Mr Nosenga, forget the question please.  On your version, Mr Themba Khosa collected the firearms after the attack, am I correct that this is your version?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, after the attack on Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Where did he collect it from?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The car, his Sprinter came right into the KwaMadala Hostel and these firearms were fetched from the ceiling where they were concealed and they were taken to his Sprinter, his vehicle and he said the things that were stolen from the hostel, things like clothes etc., should be burnt.  Beds were also taken and television sets.  He said these things should be put on fire to cover up.

MR LOWIES: When did he say so, that very same night or the next day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The next day.

MR LOWIES: I'm putting to you that this is a lie, Mr Khosa never said so.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He said that.  He did say that these things should be burnt.  He spoke to the Indunas, he said these things should be burnt.  I cannot say something, I  cannot suck this information from my thumb.

MR LOWIES: Did you hear him actually giving that instruction?  That is the point.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did hear him telling the Indunas.  I was there at the hostel, I did hear him say so.

CHAIRPERSON: What  actually happened, did Themba Khosa call Indunas and address them or did he call everyone else and address the Indunas in your presence as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  He summoned all the residents, but spoke directly referring to the Indunas to say everything that was stolen should be burnt.  This message was directed to the Indunas, who would in turn tell the hostel residents.

MR LOWIES: And you witnessed this?  You overhead what he said to the Indunas.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was there at the meeting, we were all there at the meeting.  I did hear him say that.

MR LOWIES: I want to put to you, Sir, that this is directly in conflict with your evidence yesterday where you said you were not present, he only had a meeting with the Indunas.  What is the truth?  Both cannot be true.

CHAIRPERSON: Just refresh my memory, was that in relation to the burning?

MR LOWIES: That was, as I understood it, to be in relation to the burning.

CHAIRPERSON: Because my recollection of his evidence was that the leadership would meet separately and then the decision taken at the leadership level would then be conveyed to the general membership.

MR LOWIES: May I come in here Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you're referring to?

MR LOWIES: No, no, that was the evidence as a fact, yes, but I'm not referring to that incident.  My recollection of the evidence is the following, that they were only informed, the attackers, afterwards that Mr Themba Khosa was happy about the attack and he does not know anything regarding the meeting where Khosa allegedly was.  As you will remember the other applicants testified.  That's how I have it.

ADV SIGODI: But as I recall it, it was not put specifically in relation to the burning of the loot that was taken from Boipatong, as I recall the evidence.

MR LOWIES: My impression, Chairman, is with respect that it was not directly related to that, but the incident is clear, it was that incident.  My note reads as follows Chair, if I may;  that
"After he left we met and we were informed by the Indunas that Khosa was happy and that he had come to collect the weapons and that he said ...(this is now what they were still informed) that the police were going to be coming to search them for weapons."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You see my note says
"Darkie Chonco said these stolen items must be burnt because they would expose the hostel dwellers to arrest"
And then the third answer to that was:
"After the attack, Themba Khosa came looking for the firearms used during the attack.  He did not speak to us, we heard from IsInduna.  He spoke to them"
Is that the part that you're referring to?

MR LOWIES: That's correct.
	So Mr Nosenga, the impression created yesterday was that he only spoke to the Induna and that you did not see that.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said Themba Khosa came after the attack on Boipatong, he came for the firearms.  A meeting was convened for everybody, but he was not speaking directly to us, he spoke directly to the Indunas, to say that everything that was stolen from Boipatong should be burnt before the police arrived because there would be police coming to search, police would be coming from Pretoria, not Vereeniging.  That is what I remember as having been asked yesterday.
COMMITTEE DISCUSSES EVIDENCE

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chairman.
	My question to you is, Sir, it appears that you were not present because he only had a meeting with the Indunas.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was there at the hostel.  I was present when the meeting was held after the attack on Boipatong and a meeting was convened at the stadium.

MR LOWIES: If he had a meeting with the Indunas, you would not be present.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He summoned all the residents, but in his speech, or should I say he directed his speech to the Indunas in the presence of the rest of the residents.

MR LOWIES: I put it to you that it's still contradictory to what you said yesterday, because yesterday - and my note is clear on this, he only had a meeting with the Indunas and they then in turn informed you about the situation.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that.

MR LOWIES: Regarding Michael Ramakau, you also mentioned his name yesterday - my mistake, Monday, as being part of the Kheswa gang, now today you denied that he was.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You asked me about Kheswa's gang and I mentioned people like Hunter, Themba ...(indistinct).  I did not mention Michael Ramakau, I did not say he was a member of Kheswa's gang.