Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MR STEENKAMP: So, can you just explain to us where the police got this information from, the detailed information about the incident?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: They got this information from the informer.

MR STEENKAMP: And who was this person, do you know?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Moses Leglogiso.

MR STEENKAMP: Please help me if I'm wrong, this statement was never contested in the Supreme Court in the way you're doing now, am I right?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: So why didn't you contest this statement in the Supreme Court when you had the opportunity to do so?  Why didn't you tell the learned Judge, the Presiding Officer, that you were actually assaulted, and that this information came from the informer?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I tried to explain in court but they did not listen to me, they dismissed my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you tried to explain at your trial that you had been assaulted before you made this statement and accordingly it shouldn't be admissible but they just dismissed your statement, paid no regard to it?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is what I'm saying Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you defended?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Who by?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is Mr Mavundla.

MR MALAN: Are you saying that the facts in this statement is not true?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Not at all Sir.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us what specifically is not true in this statement?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: The statement in total.

MR MALAN: What was the car that you drove with?  What make and model?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is a 1400 Datsun.

MR MALAN: Was it a bakkie or a delivery van or what was it?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It was a van.

MR MALAN: Are you saying in the statement that you drove with a van or are you describing a different car?  Is that car correct, the reference to the car in the statement?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct, that is true, I was driving a 1400 Datsun van.

MR MALAN: You referred to Danny going with you?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now why do you say the statement in total is incorrect.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Police asked me about what they already know because if you look on the date, I was arrested on the 19th, then on the 3rd and then they started assaulting me on the 4th.  They forced me to make this statement.

MR MALAN: Let's except that for the moment, that they forced you, the question is, what is incorrect in this statement, can you tell us what is not true?  What in the statement is not true?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: The whole statement.

MR MALAN: Did you not go in the car that you described here?  Were you describing a different car?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I was explaining about the same car which I was driving and the police knew that I was driving the same car.

MR MALAN: Did you stop, as you say in your statement, in front of the supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you hear gunshots while you were waiting in the car?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you leave the scene when they came out, dropped them off, as you say here?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: Now what is not correct?  What in your statement is untrue, can you point out anything that you said in your statement that is not true?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: All those things which were said by Leglogiso, told them, they forced me to agree with.

MR MALAN: Which things, mention them.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: To make an example - I didn't want to explain to them what happened.  If I were to tell them the truth I would be killed.

MR MALAN: But make an example of what was not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did you drive to the supermarket or did Danny?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I drove.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's not true to say Danny drove, as you say in the statement, that was not true?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And did Danny move the car after the shooting to another parking place?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No, I was the one who was driving.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to a corrugated-iron house?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that where the guns were collected?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct, that is where I left the guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the guns collected there before?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, we collected the guns there.

CHAIRPERSON: So the guns weren't brought from Welkom or anything?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: We brought three guns from Welkom.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how did they get to the corrugated-iron house, you said you collected them from there?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: We took them there when we returned from the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you went to the supermarket, did you collect guns?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: We had three guns and then we took two guns from the corrugated-iron house.

MR MALAN: So then you had five guns?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Why did you take five guns?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: They were going to be used by the people who were supposed to use them.

MR MALAN: Were there five people supposed to be using guns?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: May you please repeat your question Sir?

MR MALAN: You say the five guns were supposed to be used by the people who were participating.  Now the question is, were there five people?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: The other gun was left in the car.

MR MALAN: So did four people take guns and move in?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Who were they?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That Zuko, Ngesi, Bhani and Khotle.

MR MALAN: Did Mr Khotle also go into the shop, into the supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I don't remember well Sir.

MR MALAN: This is important, surely you know?  Did Mr Khotle travel with you to the supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I don't remember Sir, I'm now confused, I don't remember.

MR MALAN: You told us now that four people took guns and went into the shop.  You named them freely, you said it was Zuko, Ngesi, Bhani and Khotle.
	Can someone please attend to the message here from the interpreters?
	Mr Tshoane, you said that five guns were taken in the van.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I now hear.

MR MALAN: You say five guns were taken in the van?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I don't remember well what exactly happened, it is after a long time.

MR MALAN: Let me take you back.  You said that you had three guns, you went to this corrugated-iron house and you took two more guns, so you then had five guns, is that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You said the five guns were to be used by the people who would be participating in this exercise, is that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Then you said only four people took guns, one gun was left in the van, is that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now who were the four people?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is Ngesi, Zuko and Bhani and Sibande.

MR MALAN: Did Sibande go in?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was at the door.

MR MALAN: He was at the door.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And Khotle, did he stay in the car?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was not present Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how did you come to say a few minutes ago that he was one of the people who took a gun?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I said before that I was confused.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you didn't, you said you were confused after you were asked about Mr Khotle.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I made a mistake by saying somebody who was not present.

MR MALAN: Did you know Zuko, Ngesi and Bhani from before or did you meet them then?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I knew them before Sir.

MR MALAN: Did you know them well?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, Sir.