Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

CHAIRPERSON: You wanted to say something Mr Bracher?

MR BRACHER: May I just say that it mustn't be overlooked, with respect, that these are sworn statements given under oath, they can't be amended as such, they can be explained.  He can change his evidence but he can't amend a sworn affidavit, there's no such procedure with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that you raise, is this an affidavit?  I don't know the answer.

MR BRACHER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's precisely the point, it's a statement attached to an Affidavit.  There is one view that holds that it is part of the Affidavit, there's another argument that says it's merely a statement attached to a sworn Affidavit.  It's not the first time that I've come across this kind of problem.

MR BRACHER: If it says for instance in 9A, provides evidence of the deeds in Annexure A then that must be a sworn statement.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) in technical words.  I have in the past, and I have no intention of deviating from it, to allow the amendment but to also allow questions just to clarify what may have been the wrong information in that particular statement.

MR BRACHER: Yes that's a pragmatic answer I'm sure.

MS VAN DER WALT: You amended these changes, why did it say that here?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Well Koekemoer gave this evidence and with our consultation I would like to rectify it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Initially in your statement did you put it that you thought this is how it occurred?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes and the time it was given, you sometimes remember different aspects and that is why I wanted to rectify this.

MS VAN DER WALT: But it is a fact that Koekemoer and Le Roux then left with Barnard from Koesterfontein?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now at the game farm was there any planning concerning the theft of vehicles?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I saw Duppie and Jannie Kruger they were busy with the men and I took note that it was concerning the theft of 4X4 vehicles.

MS VAN DER WALT: On that Sunday evening on the 24th of April 1994 there was a meeting that took place on this game farm.  Do you have any knowledge of this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who attended this meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It was General Nico Prinsloo, Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe, Koper ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this now Myburgh?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Koper Myburgh, myself, Duppie ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: This is now Johan Du Plessis?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, and Johan Smit.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what was discussed?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Koper Myburgh discussed the handing-out of the pipe bombs, that they must be handed out amongst the people who are at the game farm to go and detonate them somewhere.

MS VAN DER WALT: The way in which you understand the rank structure of the AWB, what is your comment now on your evidence that - Koper Myburgh, do you know what his rank was?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I did not know what his rank was.

MS VAN DER WALT: But in your presence there was now a General and a Brigadier as well as a Commandant.  How did you see perceive this meeting.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: If he was the speaker he had to get the approval from the Brigadier and Leon Van der Merwe.

MS VAN DER WALT: In other words he was the speaker?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is how I saw it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know if he was involved with the head quarters in Ventersdorp, that is now Koper Myburgh?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And was he a member of the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I heard so.

MS VAN DER WALT: After the meeting, what happened then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Nico Prinsloo told me that I must gather the men outside.  First he said that everyone at this game farm must take part in this operation, that we must forget about a Volkstaat, there isn't a Volkstaat anymore, the time has passed, the election must be stopped, we have to create chaos, people must be forced into panic so that the election cannot be held.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only reason why these bombs had to be planted?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is how I understood it Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So the idea that there was going to be a fight for a Volkstaat was now abandoned?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I don't know, there was no talk about anything else.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you just said that it was said there is not longer a Volkstaat, forget about the Volkstaat, the election must be stopped?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, now I understand you correctly, yes that's what was said.

MS VAN DER WALT: So the election had to be stopped, is that what you're saying?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was the main and only reason for these bombs as you understood it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: As I understood it there, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now after this meeting, what happened then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I walked out and told the people to go outside as Duppie wanted to address them.  Johan Smit, who was a Major at that time, shouted at everybody and told them to go outside because Duppie wanted to see them.

MS VAN DER WALT: And outside, what happened?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not know exactly what happened outside.  There were windows close to the place where they were talking, I was close to that and I saw that Koper Myburgh was demonstrating to the people how to use these pipe bombs, how they worked etc.  Then they divided the people into four groups, groups of three people in a group.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why were the people divided into groups?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not know why, I assume - I don't believe one person could do such a thing.

CHAIRPERSON: At this meeting, when it was said that the election must be stopped, who was present?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: General Nico Prinsloo, Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe, Koper Myburgh, myself and Duppie, that's Johan Du Plessis and Major Johan Smit.

ADV BOSMAN: None of the other applicants were there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting was called, you brought the people on the farm together and you say in paragraph 25 that Koper Myburgh demonstrated to the people how the pipe bombs worked and Johan Du Plessis was leading this meeting.  Who listened to them and looked what they were doing?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The people who were called outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Any of the applicants?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are they?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I cannot remember exactly who were outside, but there were some of them there, Gert Fourie, Jaco Smit I saw him there, Veebosch ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Oh are we talking about the applicants?  Jaco Smit was there - Jaco Nel, sorry, Peet Steyn, Johan - we call him JJ, Johan Venter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Le Roux was he present?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No he wasn't outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he not outside?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No he wasn't, I didn't see him there.

CHAIRPERSON: And were these people also told to forget about the Volkstaat, forget about it, it no longer exists. Our job is now to make sure that the elections do not take place?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not know Chairperson.  I wasn't present during those activities.

CHAIRPERSON: What did Johan Du Plessis tell them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: As I can remember he distributed things to the, to tell you the honest truth I do not know what he said to them.  ... (transcribers translation).

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that the Volkstaat was forgotten at that stage?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.