Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly assist me, section 20 sub-section 3 quote
"If we wanted to decide whether it was an act associated with a political motive, we should do so at the following ...(inaudible) criteria
a)  The motive of the person who committed the act, that's the motive of the applicant.  
Is there any evidence before us what his motive was and what he wanted to achieve?

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Commissioner.  His motive was that he wanted to see to it that those who opposed Mr Djamile must be dealt with because he believed that UDF supporters did not abide to the ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: That's why I asked here about - and I asked the witness - and I wanted - and I addressed my problem to you while evidence was being led.  What would this have to do with politics if I've got a grudge against Mr X because maybe he killed my nephew and I order a youngster, go and see whether he's at home because I want to kill him, should I get amnesty?

MR SHANGWENI: I would say yes, Mr Commissioner, for the following reason, we look at this man who took this sixteen year old for the purposes of achieving his political gains because no doubt, according to the papers and the report of the Committee which was - if the Committee allows me - I'm not sure whether it was called Claremont Action Committee but it's a Committee which was opposed to the incorporation ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But he didn't mention in his evidence, nowhere in his evidence did he mention that he was in favour or opposed - he himself, not what other people thought, what was his motive, was he opposed ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: Mr Commissioner, if you bear with me, I'm trying to put it into a context.  I am saying there was this Committee which was opposed to incorporation, now I was looking at this man, Mr Samuel Begezizwe Djamile who took this youth to achieve his political gains because he wanted to create a stronghold in Claremont so that his views must be imposed on Claremont residents.  	One of them would be incorporating Claremont into Kwa Zulu self-governing State.  In fact according to papers here, he denied that in court but according to the report by the Committee, he was opposed to their views that it should not be incorporated to Kwa Zulu Natal.

ADV DE JAGER: I understand, I understand Mr Djamile's motive but Mr Djamile is not the applicant and the Act said, the motive of the person who committed the act omission or offence ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: His motive was to satisfy Mr Djamile with whom he got on reasonably well and who paid him from time to time.

MR SHANGWENI: I would disagree Mr Chairperson, with due respect.  I don't want to disassociate the motives of Djamile and Msizi Hlope.  A politician who wants to create a base where he stays, surely would use people like Msizi, like the Caprivi trainees clandestinely, that is why we today we have that difficulty in terms of linking his motive with a political objective.  It's because these things were done clandestinely, that's the problem we have.  I would bear with the Committee ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: But I said earlier on Mr Chairperson, that at a later stage he associated himself with Djamile's objective because he thought they were correct and he was seen as a member of Inkatha at that time.
	You can't issue membership cards to people whereas you are non-aligned or you belong to the other party.  You associate yourself with that political party.  The motive is implied in that regard.

ADV SANDI: Can I ask Mr Shangweni, just on the question of full disclosure, is it a coincidence that your client in all the incidents referred to, he seems to have been consistent in playing a very sort of minimum role, is that a mere coincidence?

MR SHANGWENI: It is not a mere coincidence but I would argue that common sense dictates to me that if we engage someone uncomplicated like Msizi, you'd limit his role so that he could not reveal your activities.
	In fact Mr Commissioner, attached to Msizi's affidavit, is a confirmatory affidavit from Dalikolo Letule who is also prepared to give evidence to the Amnesty Committee and according to his information to me, he told me that he's applied for amnesty and he's going to disclose everything.  I don't want to deal with his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Your client was a young man from what you tell us, he was unsophisticated, is that correct?

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: He merely carried out instructions from time to time and at some stage, according to what you say, he began to appreciate the importance of what Djamile was doing.  In other words, Djamile was carrying out certain political objectives in going around doing what he was doing - killing people.

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: (no sound) ... that the applicant is now entitled to amnesty because he'd come to the conclusion that you solved political problems by killing people.

MR SHANGWENI: I didn't hear that Mr Chairperson, did you say he is entitled or not entitled?

CHAIRPERSON: The applicant is entitled to amnesty because he'd come to the conclusion that political objectives can be achieved by killing.

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct Mr Chairperson, taking into consideration what he believed then, that's correct.  Mr Chairperson I will earn my argument there.  	There's a special request from the applicant that he would like to meet with the victims and the next of kin in order to explain further other questions that did not arise in this forum.  We should appreciate that forums of this nature cannot be appreciated by other members of the public in terms of the questions they would like to put to the applicant.  So in that regard he requested me to ask the Committee to make that arrangement possible, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Brink ...(inaudible)

ADV DE JAGER: Could I just ask you please, you should help me here.  The Act says ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: Section 23(e) says
"Whether the act, omission or offence was committed in the execution of an order of the organisation"
Would you say there was an order from the organisation that he should point out or kill somebody?

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Commissioner, I wouldn't say there was an order from an organisation but for the fact that an order came from someone who belonged to an organisation, the high profiled individual, one would imply that there was an order from that person.
	If we take an approach that there should be an order from an organisation writing a letter that these things must be done, any organisation would end up not giving people amnesty if we are approaching it in that strict sense of the way.

ADV DE JAGER: But that's why I asked you when he was giving evidence, what was Mr Djamile's status in the party, was he a leader, was he a minister, was he connected in Government?  And no evidence was put before us.

CHAIRPERSON: All we know he was a prominent political figure.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he authorised ...(no sound)

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I think that question whether the acts of Msizi were authorised by Inkatha, is for Mr Djamile to answer for the following reason
It was ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Unfortunately, Mr Djamile is not sitting here, we've got to answer it on the evidence before us.

MR SHANGWENI: That is why I'm ...(inaudible) in terms of answering it and I'm going to answer it Mr Commissioner.  At that time, Djamile was a member of Inkatha, he was a Minister, a Deputy Minister of Interior of the ...(intervention)