bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

LUNGILE MAZWI: I feel very bad sir to know that those were innocent people, I regret so much.  Though at the time, I did not know that those were holiday makers.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mazwi, we had a past in this country which culminated in a war between the people in South Africa because the white people had the political power and the black people, didn't have the political power in the South African parliament, isn't that so?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And because of that conflict, the people of South Africa were at war with each other?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And that war in fact was a war between the whites in South Africa and the blacks in South Africa with a few exceptions?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And on that day, you acted as a soldier in that war, or didn't you act as a soldier?  As far as you were concerned?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I acted as a soldier.  Please explain sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, you took up a gun and you killed people and that is what soldiers usually, or what is part of their job?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And fortunately that war in South Africa has come to an end?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And all of us, including the victims here, would try in future to avoid such a war again?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I would be happy sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And that is what this Committee and the Act is trying to achieve, to get reconciliation.

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is so sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And you have told us that in future you will try to see whether you could contribute something to that reconciliation.

LUNGILE MAZWI: I am very much willing sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And I hope although the sorrow may be deep, that even the relations of the victims would try to contribute to a better future for all of us in this country.

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is my wish sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And it is true that you have killed innocent people on that day, but unfortunately that is the situation in a war.  On both sides, innocent people were killed in that war?  Thank you.

ADV SANDI: What was your response to that Mr Mazwi, do you agree that innocent people get killed in a war, on both sides?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zilwa, we are running an unusual hearing, let's not get involved in technicalities here.  We have got restraints in time, State President has indicated that he is not going to extend the time of this type of hearings any more.
	We need to complete the matter somehow.  If you people want to finish it tonight, we can sit until we finish.

MR ZILWA: I prefer that Mr Chairman, I will be calling the next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's be democratic about it a little bit.  What do you say Mr Smuts?

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, I am not sure that that is fair to anybody, because these are longer sessions than ordinary court hours, and one needs to concentrate and keep control on what is happening.
	As a compromise, would it not be possible for us possibly to hear the witness in chief, to have cross-examination tomorrow and to submit in due course, written argument which would allow my ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zilwa said he is unavailable tomorrow.

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, there is very little that one can't effect with a cellphone in terms of organisation these days.

ADV SANDI: What time are you supposed to be ...(indistinct) Mr Zilwa tomorrow morning?

MR ZILWA: In fact I had other things to do for tomorrow, but I suppose if we could adjourn maybe for ten minutes and I could see if I could make other arrangements for tomorrow, even though I had already planned other things for tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: When do you finish your commitments that you had planned for tomorrow?

MR ZILWA: Mr Chairman, it is difficult to say, they may take the morning session and perhaps ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you start on Thursday then?

MR ZILWA: That is why Mr Chairman,  I am saying maybe if we take a short adjournment, I could see if I could try and arrange myself for tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-07

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  There are a few issues I want to raise.  We have come to the end of the hearing and I wish to thank all those who have made the arrangements for this hearing to be held.  In particular to the interpreters who do a thankless job.  I also wish to thank the members of the Correctional Services and the South African Police Services for their co-operation and to ensure, as they promised, that the hearings start on time.  Members of the public who showed interest in this hearing and to the representatives who came to our assistance during this hearing.  I want to thank the press for covering this matter.  I also wish to point out that it is unfortunate that one possible witness that this panel may have wanted to call to give evidence was consulted yesterday and a report on what was discussed appeared in this morning's newspaper.  It is to be hoped that in future the media in general would refrain from interviewing any party or interested party in a hearing until after the hearing, it does in fact compromise our position.
	I want to say to the victims that unfortunately this country has been plagued with atrocities for many, many years.  Many people have died during the course of that period and this country has been split down the middle in racial lines.  I am aware of those effects.  In different quarters, the activities of different political organisations were criticised on one hand and supported on the other.  I cannot begin to imagine the pain and trauma that you must have endured and perhaps still enduring.  I cannot request that you forgive and forget what you've had to experience.  In particular the youngsters in this particular case who had to endure that type of trauma.  It is to be hoped that the pain and trauma would diminish through the passage of time and it is to be further hoped that our people, subjects of this country, are to be allowed and are able to proceed with their lives as they should have been able to do without apartheid.  This matter is adjourned and we'll adjourn till tomorrow morning.  We will make our decision as soon as is possible.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are you calling the application of Bhiye(?) and others?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position about that?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson in that matter the position is that they have, the applicants have just instructed their legal representative and he asks some indulgence to make proper consultation and preparation for the hearing.  The matter has been discussed with the representative for the victims and we have agreed that the matter will have to be adjourned in those circumstances.  So we are putting that proposal to the Committee, to have the matter adjourned.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kingcad(?), that correct?

MR KINGCAD: I confirm that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's unfortunate that this matter has to be postponed.  I have been informed of the inconveniences that it's caused, but unfortunately the fact of the matter is that legal assistance for the applicants was only recently acquired and it is likely that certain documentation will have to be drafted after he consults with the applicants.
	Given the fact that this circuit is scheduled to end next Friday, before which there are other applications that are scheduled, it is hardly likely and indeed I think inappropriate to contemplate even starting this matter sometime next week.  Because in any event it would have to be postponed to when next the Amnesty Committee in the form as it is presently constituted here, next comes around to East London.  
	I would prefer, and I so rule, that the matter be postponed sine die to be heard at the next time any Amnesty Committee comes round to East London, when this matter can receive its attention and hopefully finally dispose of it.  To the other interested parties who have come along to listen to the hearing, for what it's worth, our apologies and I hope that the matters as I've explained are understood.
	In the circumstances, the matter is postponed sine die.
You are excused, and Mr Kingcad, together with your clients.

MR KINGCAD: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
MR KINGCAD AND CLIENTS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I think he, that was a mistake, the person did not listen carefully because my commander, the commander who instructed me to attack Mr Franciscato was Tamsanqa Duma.  Mbulelo Dlamini did not know anything about Mr Franciscato as I did not tell him.

ADV DE JAGER: It's very strange because your co-applicants also they received instructions from Mr Dlamini.  That's quite a different handwriting so it's another person helping them that made the same mistake.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: It is the same person who was writing for us and Winile Veveza.  It was Kwanesele(?).

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We'll break for 10 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: (s.u.o.)

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] incident occur, what time of the day?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Are you talking about his incident that I'm serving?  It was round about, before 5 o'clock or past five but I'm not sure about the time.

ADV DE JAGER: And at what time did you hand the weapons to Mr Duma?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: When we finished, when we were from Mr Franciscato's house.  When we finished our operation we went to the township and I left ...[indistinct] Zukile and it was late in the evening and I went to Tamsanqa Duma.

ADV DE JAGER: So then you carried the four weapons you've robbed at Cato's place and your own weapon?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you hand over all five weapons or did you keep one?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: One weapon was left with me, I didn't give him the whole five. I gave him only the four arms that were taken at that place.

ADV DE JAGER: And one of the arms you've taken was a shotgun, a long gun?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: It was a long gun and three pistols.

ADV DE JAGER: And how did you carry this long gun through the streets?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I folded it, it is flexible and then I folded it and it was shorter and I wrapped it with my lumber jacket.  I put it under my arm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

WINILE VEVEZA: I've already explained to the Committee what I was trained to do in the task force.  This was not the only thing that we were supposed to do under the task force.  Even though we're not against it, even if we were given instructions by our commander.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to give you another opportunity then to answer the question.  Was the application with which we are now busy, the only operation that you were involved in and was under the auspices of this task force?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.  Other things that I was doing under the task force, I was working in the community and I was organising things for the organisation.  If there was a rally I would be involved, I would guard so that nothing would disturb the members of the PAC who would be in that rally.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be the jobs of the task force or of the cadres in other units of PAC, like marshals or so on?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was never trained as a PAC cadres, I was referring to what I was doing under the task force.  I was telling you about what I was doing for the task force.   We were not focusing only on killing, there were other things that we were doing for the task  force.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to ask you, in order to give you a fair chance or to be fair to you, the same question I asked the previous witness.  Was this not something that occurred outside the organisation?

WINILE VEVEZA: No, we did this for the organisation, we did this for the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you hope to gain by it?

WINILE VEVEZA: We were not hoping to gain anything but what we wanted was our land or our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Then you must be very surprised to learn that Mr Duma says
"I ordered the unit which was commanded by Mabuti Biko to kill and repossess weapons from the house of Mr Franciscato to be used to defend us against the ANC aggression and also to carry out the struggle forward".
	These weapons were needed to defend the PAC against the ANC's aggression and not to take your land back.
And not to take your land back.

WINILE VEVEZA: He knows what he wanted these weapons for.  I didn't want these weapons.  I just went there because the organisation needed the weapons.  They were not going to be used by me.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We'll adjourn till a quarter to two.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-13

MR LUCKY AUGUST: whose address is given to us as
P O Box 117, Fort Beaufort is DECLARED A VICTIM as defined by the Act and it is recommended that he is treated as such in terms of the Act.
This session is adjourned until tomorrow 9a.m.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-23

CHAIRPERSON: We make a finding that in our opinion the dependants of the persons who were killed in the attack and the persons who suffered injury to the extent set out in the description of victims in the Act, we consider are probably victims and we refer them all to the Reparations Committee.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, that would be appropriate.  And then the sifting process or the identification process can take place at that level.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  I think we should not confine it, subject to the other Members of the Committee.  It may also in certain instances, depending on the nature of the injuries suffered, include the dependants of persons injured in the attack as well as the persons killed.  If as a result of the attack those persons have no longer been able to maintain their dependants they would certainly be victims.  They may well have suffered mental injury and emotional suffering in consequence of some relative, or being injured.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, that is the end of business for today.  The matters that will proceed tomorrow are the Unitra and the Fort Beaufort incident which will be argued.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-24

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I will then undertake to investigate and see that this Committee gets a report, hopefully by the end of this week, or possibly next week, as to the status of those other matters and that this Committee can then have a clearer idea of how to approach the matter from there on.
	It would seem that if no investigation had been done at all in any of those matters, it's going to take some months to follow that up, with the present logistical position of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think it could be shorted, as I said, if the Investigators get in touch with the applicant's attorneys who would perhaps give them, do their work for them and tell them where to go and look for the information.

ADV PRIOR: Will the matter then stand adjourned for a date to be arranged?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: One other matter which we might ask for comment on at this stage is as to where the applicants thinks it would be most convenient to set the matter down again.  Or perhaps you can notify, you don't have to do it now.  You could apply your minds to it and discuss it with Mr Prior.
	The matter is now adjourned to a date to be arranged.
MATTER ADJOURNED TO A DATE TO BE ARRANGED
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-24

CHAIRPERSON: That he was told to go to Fort Beaufort, he would met by comrade Zuko who would provide him with accommodation
"He advised me that the target had already been identified, and it's the Yellowwoods Hotel in Fort Beaufort."

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I'm simply on behalf of the victims saying the tragedy in this matter is specifically that, that in the cold light of day, and whether they were given the right information, it would seem they were given the wrong information.  Maybe this was one of the motivational tools that were used, because when we look at the result of the attack, it's clear that what they were told wasn't in fact true.  And possibly - maybe just a concluding comment, that it's a pity that we have the foot-soldiers before us and not the people that gave those, or made those terrible decisions.  They are conspicuous by their absence in these hearings.
	Anyway, Mr Chairman, I can't take the matter any further, and obviously I would ask the Commission to, or the Committee to make a finding that Mrs Gerling in particular is a victim in terms of the provisions of the Act, and be referred to the Reparations Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It is I think common cause between the parties and agreed to by the Committee that the mother of the deceased, Mrs Anna Helena Gerling is a victim of the attack and we accordingly refer her to the Reparations Committee.
	We will take time to consider our decision in this matter.
	There was also a Mr Nel who said that he suffered psychological damages as a result, and there may have been other persons present who did suffer psychological harm and in that event - Mr Nel is Ian Johannes Nel - and we would invite the legal representatives of the Committee and the applicants to put forward any other names that have appeared, who were present at the time and suffered psychological damage or damage of that nature so that they can also be referred to the Committee.
	Does that conclude ...?

ADV PRIOR: That concludes our role for today, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What are we doing tomorrow?

ADV PRIOR: We're proceeding with the Sterkspruit matter.

CHAIRPERSON: What time would you suggest we start?  Who is appearing?
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: ... nice long afternoon to prepare for it.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I make a suggestion?  I do have a witness or possibly two witnesses coming from Aliwal North.  I don't envisage the matter taking all day, I think we'll comfortably finish tomorrow.  May we - I would need some time.  I understand my one witness is only able to arrive here round about half past seven, towards 8 o'clock tomorrow morning and I'd have to precognise him a little further, so could we possibly adjourn till, to start at 09H30 tomorrow?

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, 09H30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

MS COLLETT: I meant to clarify that.  Unlawful as far as APLA was concerned.  In other words what he basically said was there was an instruction, there was an instruction.  And that will be found at the bottom of page 17 of Exhibit J.
	Now this flies in the fact of what Mr Tjabane has just told this Committee because he says that he told Letklapa Mpahlele that this had taken place and it was unlawful because he had communicated that the armed struggle had been suspended etc., etc.  Now both parties acted, I mean testified under oath, one in the High Court and one here.  And I submit that if one has regard to the evidence of Mandla Palapala as well in the High Court, who had nothing to gain, he's neither an applicant before this Commission, neither was he an accused before Court.  He testified that after the alleged incident, the Bahai Faith Church, they went back to the Coloured township and the matter was reported to Jimmy Jones alias Xholile Tjabane who is before the Committee today.
	I would ask the Committee to find that orders were in fact given by APLA.  At worst on the evidence before the Committee, if Tjabane did not give the orders, somebody did.  And I'd hang my hat on what Tjabane said in his evidence early on when he said basically that they might not have heard of the suspension and they acted like they did.  In other words he insinuated that commands might have come from somebody other than him.
	The difficult situation is, Mr Chairman, that most of the persons that are involved, and I refer to TNT who is dead, he would have been the field commander, he would have been the person who could have come here and told us that this or this happened.  Essentially Tjabane is here as a single witness, his testimony conflicts with Mandla Palapala, his testimony with Mpahlele, his testimony conflicts with both the applicants before you Commissioners.  And consequently it is my submission that the likelihood is that taking all the circumstances into consideration, that these people did act, these applicants did act on instructions from a commander of APLA.
	They in their own way attempted to bring about some form of reconciliation between themselves and the victims, they apologised to the victims, they attempted to answer all questions as well as they could in the circumstances.  And it's my submission, Mr Chairman, that their acts were political, they were performed to obtain a political objective, the political objective was the furtherance of the policies of APLA.  Despite the fact that the armed struggle might have been suspended, I submit that it was a neutral factor at that stage because on Mpahlele's evidence given at the High Court, this had not been communicated to their base, so they were still under the guise of committing whatever they did in the name of the policy of APLA which was the armed wing of the PAC at the time.
	In the circumstances, Mr Chairman, Commissioners, I would ask that you find that the applicants before you have made full disclosure and that they qualify for amnesty in terms of the Act.  Those are my submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-06

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, I note that it is 4 o'clock.  I'm not sure till what time you intend to sit but it is a convenient stage to adjourn if you intend to adjourn at 4 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: What time would be a convenient time to start tomorrow?

MR KNOETZE: As far as we are concerned, at any stage that you would indicate, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would nine or half past nine be convenient?  9 o'clock?  We'll then adjourn now and we'll reconvene here tomorrow at 9 o'clock in the morning, to start at nine.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any further questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?  Do you wish to put any further questions?
COUNSEL HAS NO MICROPHONE

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a bit of time to finish it?
COUNSEL HAS NO MICROPHONE

CHAIRPERSON: What will be the position with regard - sorry, Mr Avenant, are you going to call any further witnesses?

MR AVENANT: We're not calling any further witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Are any of the other legal representatives who are representing implicated people or interested parties, do they intend to call any witnesses?   Mr Mapoma, are you calling any witnesses?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So we'll then very shortly be finished with the evidence in this matter.  What is the position now with regard to argument?  When do you wish to argue, now or tomorrow morning, or what would be suitable for you?

MR KNOETZE: I think the responsible thing to do is to argue tomorrow morning, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be convenient?  Anybody of course is free to make any submissions if they wish to, not only the applicants but other legal representatives if they wish to make submissions, can do so as well.  If they don't wish to make submissions and would rather not be here tomorrow to listen to the erudite argument, then they may ask for themselves to be excused today.  You've got no further questions, thank you.
	Well we'll then adjourn until tomorrow, would half past nine be convenient?

MR KNOETZE: It would be, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That will just be for purposes of receiving argument then and then we'll be finished with this particular hearing.  Thank you very much.  We'll then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-13

CHAIRPERSON: Today we have just got to hear submissions.  Mr Knoetze are you ready to give the submission?

MR KNOETZE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Yes I am ready Mr Chairman, but before I address you may I seek permission from the Committee to call my client, General Joggel van der Westhuizen to speak a few words to you.

CHAIRPERSON: You did discuss this matter with us in chambers and we can see no difficulty in calling the General again.  Mr Knoetze you say it's just a statement he wishes to make - you don't have to take the oath or what?

MR KNOETZE: It's a statement Mr Chairman, the oath is not necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chairperson thank you very much.  I'd like to say the following
	There are three things about which I have regrets. 
	Firstly, I am sorry about the fact that the new RSA had to be borne from a revolutionary war and that it wasn't the result of an evolutionary process.  A political process which should have started decades ago.
	Secondly, what I am sorry about was that Strelitzia was never applied.  That would have made a plan like Katzen unnecessary.  
	But above all what I am sorry about is that there are all those victims and casualties on both the revolutionary and the counter-revolutionary sides.  I regret the deaths and the maiming and - I am sorry about the death and disruption and the maiming of people on both sides and especially one thinks of all the civilians, civilians on both sides who were affected.
	Having said that, Chairperson, I am very pleased that the revolutionary war never ended up as a destructive civil war, because a civil war is one of the worst types of war which a country can experience, and the fact that it never degenerated into a civil war should be acknowledged by both sides who took part in the war and both sides should be given recognition for that.
	Secondly I am pleased that nobody was directly killed as a result of Katzen.
	In the third place I am glad that, as one of the first generals to appear before an amnesty committee, I had the opportunity to sketch the Defence Force's role in this war.
	I am also pleased, and I am glad that I have the opportunity to take part in the peace and recovery of the country.  For me a general who only fights in the war and does nothing afterwards is only half a general. 
	Then in conclusion, I came here and didn't know what to expect.  There is a lot of criticism expressed towards the TRC, for me the proceedings here were dignified and just and fair, and I feel the better person for it.  
	Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you General, we appreciate those words that you've given.
	Mr Knoetze.
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-13

ADV SANDI: Maybe Advocate Knoetze one, in this connection, can also mention the fact that he had, the General had an ultimatum to get things sorted out by December 1986.
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-13

MR AVENANT: That is correct.  I won't take that any further.  I don't think there is any need for that.
	In respect then of the disclosure, and full disclosure I'd like to mention that General Griebenauw acted or he revealed and disclosed everything to the best of his ability, everything of which he was aware relating to this operation and I can imagine that where an operation of this nature and extent is launched that there could be several smaller operations which would follow from this bigger operation of which General Griebenauw was never aware of, and will never be aware of.  It is my submission that if any information is disclosed or revealed in this regard then that should not be laid at his door and say that he did not disclose that.
	General Griebenauw expressed his concern regarding certain statements regarding his evidence and perception of the words used, words such as "take out" etc, and he asked me to bring it to the attention of the Committee that that was his bona fide perception after he received feedback and report-backs from Major van der Merwe to the effect that there was planning put in place which would lead to people being killed and that that was the reason why he immediately withdraw from the Plan.
	If you look at the statement of Major van der Merwe in this regard it's interesting to note that in paragraph 12 where he mentions the fact that there was no planning to kill anybody done in his presence he referred in fact to the meeting of the 10th of November 1986, and there had been a further meeting after that date on the 11th of November 1986.  There is no reference to that meeting.  
	So it is in light of these circumstances that I would like to just mention my client's concern in this regard.
	If there are any further aspects which the Committee needs elucidation on then please just ask.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think so Mr Avenant thank you.
	I will just ask the others if they - are there any other submissions that wish to be made - Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I have nothing Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further matters at all?  Thank you very much.  We will reserve judgment and hope to get the decision out as soon as possible.
	I'd like to thank all the legal representatives for their assistance in this matter, presentation of all the documents etc.  
	I have been informed that next week's hearing - for some reason or other matters weren't set down for Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and we endeavoured to try to get Thursday and Friday's hearing brought forward to Monday, but that has not been possible.  So we will now adjourn until Thursday morning when we will proceed with the application of Mr Moringer and hopefully we'll be able to start that by ten in the morning.
	So we will then adjourn now to this venue to next Thursday at ten in the morning.  Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moringer.  We will now take the lunch adjournment, I see it is quarter to one, and then we will resume after lunch with the submissions by Mr Mazaham and any other legal representative who wishes to make submissions will be free to do so.  Thank you, we will now take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazaham, are you ...
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you Mr Mazaham, thank you.  Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any submissions to make?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndengezi?

MR NDENGEZI: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr S.X. Mapoma?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson, no submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will reserve our decision in this matter and hopefully it will be distributed in the near future.
	I would just like to thank the legal representatives for their assistance in this matter.  This matter was set down in fact for two days, which means that tomorrow we won't be sitting.  It is extremely difficult to bring matters forward, particularly the next one that is starting because there are seven applicants in it, so it will be impossible to bring it forward to tomorrow.  We will then be adjourning to next Monday, when we will commence with the application of Messrs De Kock, Nieuwoudt, Ras and four others concerning the Craig Duli, the coup.
	We will then start - Mr Mapoma, what time will we aim to start on Monday, hopefully?
MR Z. MAPOMA: I suggest ten o'clock Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will adjourn then until ten o'clock on Monday morning.  Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-28

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I cannot remember seeing anyone who approached from her back with a knife.  There was confusion in the shop and the other people were hitting the dogs.  Maybe it's a person who was just passing and who hit the dogs.

MR CLARKE: Because whoever it was, was about to stab her and then suddenly froze and desisted in this course of action and said they couldn't do it because they saw a ghost or an apparition and that caused them to stop.  Did you see that?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: No, I know nothing like a ghost, or I didn't see anything like a ghost.

MR CLARKE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all I wanted to clear up.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLARKE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Clarke.  Mr Kincaid, it has been indicated to us that the other matter is ready to proceed and that the remaining cross-examination of your client might take a little bit of time.  In the hope of being able to dispose of the other matter, we are at this stage going to ask for your matter to stand down and for us to try and complete the other matter and for us to proceed with your one once we are through with the other one.  Would that be in order?

MR KINCAID: Mr Chairman, I'm at your disposal, I'm in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Mr Nokawusana, I just want to explain to you.  We were originally going to start off with another matter which we also have to hear, but because of some difficulty, one of the interested parties who was coming from overseas and who was only going to arrive her around noon, we started off with your matter so that we don't waste any time, but in the meantime the other matter is ready to proceed.  It is shorter than the matter that you're involved in and we are confident that we can dispose of it in a reasonable period of time.  We have discussed that this morning with your lawyers and have given the indication that we will more than likely do this in the course of the afternoon.
	The other matter is ready to proceed, so we are going to let your matter stand down.  Ms Patel here still has some questions to ask of you, so we will, as soon as we've finished the other matter we will come back to your matter and we will then finish your evidence and we'll listen to your co-applicants in that application.  So at this stage we are going to let you stand down to allow us an opportunity just to complete the other matter, then we'll come back to you.

MR KINCAID: May I be excused, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: And we'll excuse you as well, Mr Nokawusana.
WITNESS STANDS DOWN

MR CLARKE: Mr Chairman, can we safely take it that we won't be called again before tomorrow morning at nine?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the indications are that that will be the case, but you know if needs be our staff can be in touch with you, but I think you can accept it at this stage.  So we'll excuse you as well.
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-05-25

MTHETHELI CROSBY KOLELA: I want to clarify this part first. The soldiers were not going to be attacked at the hotel. We went there and get the drunk soldiers who were there at the hotel and take their weapons, so that if they were pursuing us we would use the arms that we had in our possession. Certainly, in a place that is, in a public place like that, there are other people not soldiers only, but we were not going to attack the hotel. Our target was the soldiers and we wanted to take the weapons and if they were firing we knew that we would also fire back.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence you said you were going to use a handgrenade to disperse them. How were you going to do that?

MTHETHELI CROSBY KOLELA: I am talking about a situation whereby we would find soldiers. Say for instance, about six or eight soldiers and would get in as five people we wanted to take their arms. Surely the soldiers as trained people cannot sit down and fold their arms if you run away towards the door, they would pursue us. In that process, anticipating that they would follow us, we would use these handgrenades to disperse. It was not that we wanted to hit them inside. And we also did not know what their reaction would be after taking their firearms.

MS MTANGA: Do you know what rank was held by Mxolise Ngqolozana at that time?

MTHETHELI CROSBY KOLELA: I am not sure about his rank.

MS MTANGA: That's the end of my questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
TAPE BLANK

MTHETHELI CROSBY KOLELA: Though we did not throw the handgrenades to Mr Ngqolozana that is the first thing we are asking amnesty for, though we did not do that. Secondly, we are asking for amnesty for being in possession of weapons unlawfully.

MR LAX: Chairperson. You said there were five of you present. I just wanted to be clear. It was yourself, Ngqunge, Mani, Adoni, and who was the fifth person? I didn't catch the name.

MTHETHELI CROSBY KOLELA: The fifth person is Sotyifa.

MR LAX: Thank you. He is late now, I understand. Is that correct?

MTHETHELI CROSBY KOLELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-05-25

MR VABAZA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson and the members of the ... (indistinct). Allow Mr Bafo Ngqunge to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngqunge what language would you prefer to use.

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: Xhosa.

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: (sworn and states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngqunge you are one of the persons referred by the previous witness, not so, as being part of a group of people who embarked on these ventures. Is that correct?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You have heard what he had to say about the planning and what actually happened. Is that correct?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you differ with him in any way?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: No, I don't differ.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with what he says?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And in the same way, you were - were you a member of the ANC structure?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was that?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you therefore have fallen under the umbrella of command of Sotyifa.

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were prepared to comply with the instructions that he may have given?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you agree also that this other policeman, Mxolise, did you know whether he was giving the community trouble, and in particular membership of the ANC?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: According to our commander, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you accepted that as true?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: We accepted it.

CHAIRPERSON: What arm were you carrying personally?

BAFO GIFT NGQUNGE: I was carrying a Stashkin, a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Have you got any further questions you would like to lead him on, Mr Vabaza?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VABAZA
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Mr Dolweni, you are excused.

XOLISELE COLEMAN DOLWENI: Thank you sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Thus far, Mr Chairman, those are the witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Ms Collett, are you able to deal with the evidence that you were going to present to us?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, unfortunately my witness is not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Has he just temporarily left or has he departed completely or are you not sure?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, I am not actually sure.  I think he might have thought that he would only get a turn tomorrow because there were several witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   You are not able to ascertain whether he is still present?

MS COLLETT: If you give me a short adjournment, I can do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will just stand down for a few moments.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
NO FURTHER MECHANICAL RECORDING
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

MS COLLETT: Were you with him throughout the period of the 22nd March?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MS COLLETT: Now there was a meeting that was called at the police college, are you aware of that?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes I'm aware of that.

MS COLLETT: Can you briefly sketch to the Committee what happened on that day as you recall it?
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: And he received you when you got to his office?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: When we arrived we waited there because he had some meeting so we waited for him until such time we saw him but he was in the office.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you were at his office until he left at about 6 in the evening?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes he left us in the office.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Are there other questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Re-examination Ms Collett?

MS COLLETT: Just on question.
	Is it correct that when General Nqoya was at the meeting that morning and he could have been kept hostage there if the police had wanted to keep him?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that the reason that he appeared to have been allowed to go was because he was going to discuss their grievances with Brigadier Gqozo?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MS COLLETT: I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Luwana, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Nompozolo, what is your position because we seem to have come to the end of the evidence.  Is your position still the same as you'd explained to us previously?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman I have consulted with Mr Sawuti whom I was going to call.  We have reconsidered our position, all what we are going to place on record has been placed on record, therefore I'm not calling him.  We are ready to argue Mr Chairman but I don't know if I can't just have about five minutes just to phone the magistrate and say I need so much time, they can just wait for me?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we can do that because this also concludes the matters that we've got on the roll so we'll hear your addresses and then we'll adjourn these proceedings.  So let us stand down for just a few minutes please.  Don't disperse, can I ask you please not to disperse just to allow Mr Nompozolo to make this arrangement and then we'll reconvene immediately and take the addresses and then you can be released.  We'll stand down for a few moments.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) your submissions?
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

MR MGIDLANA: Since there was a shooting ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way, at the end of the hearing, we are going to ask you to argue.  You can think about it.

MR MGIDLANA: Think about it, as it please you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's proceed.
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

TEMPLETON ZAMHIKHELE PATO: No, I was never charged or arrested concerning this incident.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it correct that you are one of the accused in the APLA 5 case?

TEMPLETON ZAMHIKHELE PATO: Yes, that is correct sir.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you participate in the events leading to the killing and disposal of the bodies of those members of APLA?  Those five members of APLA did you participate in the activities leading to their killing, their actual killing as well as the disposal of their bodies?

TEMPLETON ZAMHIKHELE PATO: No, I was never part of that, the only incident that I was involved in was during the shooting on that particular day, that was the only, the first and the last incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Which shooting, at the school?

TEMPLETON ZAMHIKHELE PATO: Yes, at school during the Voter Education.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only ...

MR MGIDLANA: Is the only, yes, are you therefore saying that you are not applying for amnesty in respect of the killing of the APLA 5 because you were not there?

TEMPLETON ZAMHIKHELE PATO: Yes, I do not have any application concerning that matter, the APLA 5, because I was not involved.

MR MGIDLANA: Judge, I may mention that his application appears from page 14 up to page 20 of the Bundle, and that he does mention this particular incident, regarding the APLA 5 on page 16, on page 17, Judge, I am sorry, under paragraph (b) where it says "the second case of which I am involved as accused 4 is not known to me", so I wanted to clear that one.  That is all, Judge.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malusi?

MR MALUSI: I have no questions Judge, for this witness, since he says he is not involved in the incident I am dealing with.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALUSI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgxaji?

MR MGXAJI: No questions, Judge.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MGXAJI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you Chair.  Mr Pato, what act is it that you committed on that day for which you want this Committee to grant you amnesty?

TEMPLETON ZAMHIKHELE PATO: Thank you sir.  First of all, during the shoot-out, as a person who managed to get hold of a firearm, I do not know whether anyone was injured in that incident, because there were bushes there next to the junior school of Port St Johns.  My application is about the fact that that was not my aim to shoot a person, but it happened, and it is also possible that I injured someone during that incident, that is why I am here for amnesty, but I cannot say for sure, and state explicitly.

MR MAPOMA: Did you shoot at all?

TEMPLETON ZAMHIKHELE PATO: Yes, I did.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR MGIDLANA: There is no re-examination, Judge.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MGIDLANA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

TEMPLETON ZAMHIKHELE PATO: Thank you Your Honour.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Poyo, what language would you prefer to use?

LUSINDISO POYO: Xhosa.

LUSINDISO POYO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MR MGIDLANA: Chairperson, may I just indicate that he has applied for amnesty in respect of the APLA 5.

INTERPRETER: Is the witness listening on channel 3?

MR MGIDLANA: I was indicating Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee that the witness has applied for amnesty in respect of the APLA 5 killing only, he was not involved in the high school shoot-out, as well as the Mapipa case.    Mr Poyo, could you give us your full name as well as where you reside as well as the organisation, if any, that you were a member of at the time of this particular incident?

LUSINDISO POYO: My name is Lusindiso Poyo.  My name is Lusindiso Poyo from  Mtongo, Port St Johns, I am a member of the African National Congress.

MR MGIDLANA: Since when have you been a member of the ANC?

LUSINDISO POYO: I joined the ANC in 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: You know why you have come here?

LUSINDISO POYO: Yes, I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us about that?  Mr Mgidlana, you can lead him in whatever way you think.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you.  Can you tell the Committee what happened regarding the killing of the APLA 5?

LUSINDISO POYO: In 1987 before the national elections, I was working for the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry in Libode.  I asked for permission from my employer to go and help in the Voter Education in the Branch of Port St Johns where I come from.  I was involved in the activities of Voter Education, visiting different rural areas.  A rally on the 20th of April was organised.  I was fund-raising for that rally that was to take place.   We left the day before the rally to Majole, looking for a place where we were going to erect the tent and the other things.  We stayed there and looked for other things until the next day.  The following day, on this day of the rally, the 20th, we left from Majole with Mr Kanandyana's car, going to Port St Johns.  I was going there because I was sent to ask, to get the podium or platform and the loudspeaker.  When we got to town, next to the railway station, we met with Fundisele Guleni.  Fundisele Guleni talked to Mr Kanandyana at the railway station.  Before we could reach the town, he was with the other people of which were not known to me.   We turned back without getting into town.  Myself, Noteza, Fundisele and Mr Kanandyana went back in this car.  On our way, we were told that there were people who were suspected as APLA members who were on their way to disrupt the rally.  Myself and Noteza were at the back of the van, Fundisele as in front, occupying the front seat of the van.  We went towards Dumasi and the car was stopped, because there were people hitch-hiking.

MR MGIDLANA: It seems that they are complaining that you are very fast.