Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-12

MR VALLY: Sure.  We've canvassed this at great length with many witnesses and I need to know if you knew any of these items.  We're talking about enough Cholera here to, as we've heard, start a small epidemic, we're talking about Typhoid in deodorant, we're talking about Anthrax in chocolates, we're talking about Aldicarb in chocolates, we're talking Cathridene in chocolates, we're talking about cyanide in chocolates, now would these items, in terms of the mixtures, would they be seen as delivery systems in terms of the language you were using in the military?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir, I don't understand that question.  I can answer this:  Many of the substances here would be included under the headings of what I consider classical chemical weapons or classical biological weapons, so ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Okay, could you just quickly run ...[intervention]

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No, let me just answer this question.

MR VALLY: I'm so sorry but on that point, could just quickly run through the list and tell us which substances are classical biological weapons?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Well certainly the, if you look Phencyclodene.

MR VALLY: Right.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: As far as my knowledge is concerned that could easily be developed as a incapacitating agent.

MR VALLY: That is Phencyclodene Thallium Acetate?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Listen Mr Vally, I want you to understand something.  The Chairman just said now: "As a scientist", now exactly what does he mean by that?  I'm not a chemist and I'm certainly not, I haven't got the chemical background to be able to analyse each and every one of these and then say: "This falls into that category and this falls into that category".  I'm saying, if you look at this list in the broadest possible way and you examine it against the list of scheduled chemicals and you have a chemical expert that can analyse it for you and tell you, then you will find that many of these substances fall within the classical list of chemical weapons.

MR VALLY: Fine.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I'm talking about chemical weapons or chemical lists and these schedules of 66 different substances.  I would require somebody like Professor Folb to help me to decide whether that would be a substance included under a particular heading.  In the briefing I gave you in January last year you will see that I gave you the broad categories.  And I would need a chemical assistant to advise me which of these substances fall within those broad lists and I would be satisfied if that is given to me, that if they are in those lists then they would be justifiable to examine fully.

MR VALLY: What I want ...[intervention]

DR RANDERA: Sorry, can I just ...
 General, can I just come back to your Co-ordinating Committee?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

DR RANDERA: In the same light of what you have just been arguing.  I think you are a Doctor of Medicine before you became ...[intervention]

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Medical doctor yes.

DR RANDERA: Of anatomy and I accept like myself that we don't have all the knowledge of it.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Correct.

DR RANDERA: But yet when it came to your Co-ordinating Committee and the Technical Committee which was part of that, the person that was put in charge as the Project Officer was also a doctor, Doctor Basson.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: And had a Masters Degree in Chemistry.

DR RANDERA: And had a Master Degree in Chemistry but again, in terms of your own structures, was that not a weakness that you were putting all the power almost in one person who was then reporting to you?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I'll answer the question by saying the following:  The selection of the Project Officer at the beginning of the project which I had no part in, was done by my predecessor.  Clearly the person you wanted to be the ideal Project Officer would have to be a person with detailed knowledge of chemistry and certainly would have to be also partly a person with a higher degree in medicine.  These qualities is what Doctor Basson had and I take it that that was exactly why he was chosen.
 Now what I'm saying further is, the Co-ordinating Management Committee would approve a study of all the classical chemical agents which are known as schedule one chemicals, that would be the broad guideline given.  And the Project Officer would then say: "We are now embarking on the classical lethal chemical weapons.  We're going to study 500 different chemicals" which are not only the sort of, the group, as a group, but all the various derivatives that you could find within that group.  For example, the Organo Phosphates, there are many, many Organo Phosphates that could be studied, although in a classical chemical arsenal you normally would find two or three or four of those Organo Phosphates.  
 And the Co-ordinating Management Committee would then say: "Right, what sort of requirements do you have to be able to fulfil that objective, namely to look at all the classical lethal chemical weapons and the Technical Work Group would then go and do an estimate of what experimentation would be required, what kind of staff would be required to do that work, what kind of laboratory you would have etc., etc., etc., and they would translate it into budgetary terms and they would come back to the Co-ordinating Management Committee and say: "If we want to do this and we want to deal with the classical ones during this year, we are going to require ...[intervention]

DR RANDERA: Thank you General, just one other question before I hand over to Mr Vally again.  I understood  you to say that you were brought into a discussion earlier on, into the Chemical and Biological Warfare potential that needed to be developed within the South African Medical Services.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

DR RANDERA: And then you went on to do your officers training programme etc., you then become part of the structure again as I assume it, in 1987 when you take over as a Surgeon-General?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: 1988.

DR RANDERA: Now in-between, in the sort of early period when the ideas were taking root, when the research was being done into what needed to be provided for the South African Army, were you still part of any technical committee, any structure, in that interim period?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No, Sir.

DR RANDERA: So your roles only comes in 1987?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No, that's not quite true.  Let me correct you please.  I was away during 1987, I came back in 1988 and I was appointed Surgeon-General in 1988.

DR RANDERA: Right.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: From '83 onwards the Surgeon-General informed me about the programme and allowed or invited me to attend the Co-ordinating Management Committee Meetings from time to time.

DR RANDERA: So you were part of the structure in those early years.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes, yes.

DR RANDERA: And you knew - I would imagine that as you were working up to building up a programme you would decide what the areas of research would be and you would have been party to those discussions?