Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR NIENABER: I'm sorry, but Mr Chairman, I don't recall him having said that to me, I really don't recall that. I know that you're now talking about Mabotha situation but from the outset I want to say to you and perhaps it will comfort you, I in all sincerity don't recall having known anything or remembered anything about Mr Mabotha and the interrogation during this Commission. I simply don't recall anything.

MR HUGO: You see this confirms what I thought all along. Your men go down to arrest an askari, according to their version and I'm going to tell you that now, Mr du Toit in fact his affidavit was to that effect. They found a very important document in Mr Mabotha's possession which was relevant to the Stompie Sepei matter, which they themselves regarded as very important.
 On a daily basis you have these information meetings and you are telling us now at the hearings of this Commission today you have never been informed about this?

MR NIENABER: That is all that I can think of that I was not informed. I really can't remember now unless somebody could correct me.

MR HUGO: But unfortunately as far as I know nobody can help you now General, you would remember if this type of information came to your attention?

MR NIENABER: I believe so, yes.

MR HUGO: Let me tell you then that we going to have to accept that you have never been told that, let us accept that.  And further arising from that, the model officer who served under you, whose character you described so well and so positively a moment ago, did he ever tell you that this was happening?  I'm now referring to Mabotha, in your jurisdiction area with regard to the Internal Security Act and it's provisions.

MR NIENABER: He could have done so but I don't recall that.

MR HUGO: No, General.

MR NIENABER: I'm telling you now he could have done so but I don't recall him doing so.

MR HUGO: And this moral officer, did he tell you that there was important information with regard to the Mandela Sepei matter?

MR NIENABER: I don't recall that.

MR HUGO: If he had done so, would you recall it? So once again what one has to accept that you were not ...[indistinct], we accept then. Can I ask you, during this time did you have a list of the names of people within your jurisdiction area who were kept there in terms of the Internal Security Act?

MR NIENABER: Is that what you're asking me, whether there was a list of people who have been detained there?

MR HUGO: So that you could perhaps have a degree of control over these people because you are the officer commanding security?

MR NIENABER: I suppose we would had a register but I don't know if we would have had a list.

MR HUGO: But General that too is rather surprising. Don't you think it's an oversight on your part and that that in fact opens the doors for your people, your men to make themselves guilty of misdemeanours without you knowing about them?

MR NIENABER: It could be the case but I don't think all having had such a list.

MR HUGO: I cannot believe that you had no control mechanism of how many people were in detention. Did you go through the detention register from time to time?

MR NIENABER: If I wanted to know who was in detention I would asked and I would have been informed.

MR HUGO: And you never visited Mr Mabotha in this time during which he was in detention?

MR NIENABER: No, not me.

MR HUGO: Did you know that Mr Mabotha was going to be released at a stage?

MR NIENABER: I don't know that either.

MR HUGO: Were you ever informed that Mr Mabotha would so-called be a key witness in a proposed Winnie Mandela hearing?

MR NIENABER: I know nothing of that.

MR HUGO: Just a last aspect with regard to my learned friend who wanted you to give a character witness about Mr Potgieter. Would you find it surprising if I told you that my learned friend put it that Mr Potgieter has applied for amnesty?

MR NIENABER: I take note of that.

MR DU PLESSIS: Madam Chair, perhaps my learned friend should have sight of the amnesty application.  I can give it to him now before he goes on with the questions, before he creates an impression which is going to be totally wrong.

MR HUGO: I'm not interested in the contents of that application.

MR DU PLESSIS: Then you shouldn't ask the question.

MR HUGO: You only apply for amnesty if you done something wrong.

MR DU PLESSIS: Or if you afraid of civil actions Madame Chair?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr du Plessis perhaps you can allow Mr Hugo put his questions and if you then have an objection to it please note it.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. Mr Makanjee?  Doctor Randera?

DR RANDERA: Generals, I just have one question. Yesterday and today we've heard from a number of your junior officers, except for Mr Potgieter who somehow managed to get to the Attorney General and was able to get a great deal of information. But we were told with regard to the tapes, you know the 24 hour tapes that were collated on Mrs Madikizela Mandela on other prominent people, that all this was destroyed in 1993, 1994. Were you aware of that?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Ek weet niks daarvan nie.

DR RANDERA: You know nothing about it?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Nee, ek het die mag verlaat einde.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, are you not in the police force still?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Nee.

INTERPRETER: (Generaal Coetzee het die mag verlaat in '92 so hy weet nie daarvan nie.)

DR RANDERA: Sorry?

MR NIENABER: I say I carried knowledge of the time but then I wasn't at Soweto.

DR RANDERA: Sorry?

MR NIENABER: I carried knowledge that some of the documents were destroyed from other security branches so I took it for granted that it also happened at Soweto, but I wasn't at Soweto at that time.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  Ms Mkhize?

MS MKHIZE: Just a brief question from me. Mr Coetzee, when you started you objected to an impression which has been created that as you were drafting your statement there was a collusion of some kind. I still would like to put that theory of collusion in a slightly different manner.
 You have been asked on specific cases, when you were given a subpoena and as we have been sitting over the last two days, we have listened to people coming from an infrastructure which I should think was as well developed with different sections in Soweto but the kind of information which will be reflected in our records is very scanty. It remains a major question mark for us as to asserting where there was this apparently very good infrastructure, some people responsible for technical aspects of handling information, the administration and all the divisions that you have referred to. 
 But when it comes to what you know about the specifics that we are concerned about, the responses are neither here nor there, with all due respect. That remains a major question mark for us and I suppose for the record, please respond?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I hear what you are saying but I want to differ from you. Ek stem volkome saam met u in die opsig dat - ek meen dat dit reg is, dat u reg is.
...[NO FURTHER INTERPRETATION]

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry, sorry, the interpretation is in Afrikaans.  Before the interpreters give up, if we can have an answer please?