Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

FRANK MCCARTER: The people at the shooting range, that's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And that was the persons mentioned, that I mentioned a short while ago, Wasserman, Bosch - the two local black members I should imagine was Lembede and Mhieza?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman, just Lembede.

ADV PRIOR: You say Mr Rosslee when he says there were two local black members, he refers to them earlier on - I beg your pardon it's he that mentions it, Mr Bosch mentions Spyker and Michael, that's Spyker Mhieza and Michael Lembede.

MR VISSER: If I might interrupt, my learned friend is correct, Mr Chairman, Rosslee also does and he does so in his 204's, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: I'm indebted to Mr Visser.
	I'm trying to understand your, why you're so adamant, is it possible you could have forgotten or are you adamant that Mhieza was not present?

FRANK MCCARTER: I'm adamant that Mhieza wasn't present.  Mhieza and Lembede worked very closely together on the branch and we worked closely with them on the various times that we did come down to Durban but I'm adamant that Mhieza wasn't there on that particular day.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Bosch goes even further, he says that it was these two persons that actually threw Mr Bhila's body over the cliff.

FRANK MCCARTER: No, that's incorrect, it was myself and Lembede who threw him over.

ADV PRIOR: Whose decision was it to execute him or kill him at this specific spot at Umbumbulo?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well I think, I wouldn't like to say I think, because Lembede knew the area he was the one who showed us.  We asked him where was a suitable place to dump and that's where he took us to.

ADV PRIOR: And when was that put, when was that asked, I mean when did you discuss with Lembede where it was suitable to kill Bhila?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall.

MR MALAN: If you say "we asked him", are you saying you asked him?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall whether it was myself specifically or someone else, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: How can you then recall that he was asked?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well he took us to the place.

MR MALAN: Did he not make the decision then?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, he was not in charge.

MR MALAN: So who asked then?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: But Mr McCarter, you were in charge, you were the senior man there were you not?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And for all practical purposes the operation was under your control and your command.

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And in all probability you would be the one who would have asked Lembede who knew the area, "where we could have killed Bhila and dump his body", is that correct.

FRANK MCCARTER: I concede that, I ...

ADV PRIOR: You concede that but you say you have no independent recollection of saying that?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: The participation of the Askaris and the black members from Vlakplaas ceased as I understood your evidence, once Bhila had been handed over to yourself and the other members to be transported away from Lamontville, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: ...(inaudible) exception on your version, of Lembede?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: It was suggested to you that one, Stanley Mony or Mani was in the vehicle driven by Ramatala, that is the Honda vehicle, when Bhila was fetched or met at the Kentucky.

FRANK MCCARTER: ...(inaudible)

ADV PRIOR: I'm reiterating what was put to you by Mr Hugo.

FRANK MCCARTER: No, I don't recall Mony at all.  I ...(indistinct) the name Mony and I recall him but I don't recall that he was there, I only remember   Ernest.

ADV PRIOR: At the break I was informed that Stan Mony was in fact a State witness who gave evidence during the trial of Buthelezi and Others, in which Bhila was an accused at that stage, are you aware of that?

FRANK MCCARTER: I don't remember which trial but I remember that he was a State witness, ja.

ADV PRIOR: I recall in your amnesty application at page, I think it was at page 38 you indicated at some stage you worked under Craig Williamson in the Intelligence Section.

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Were you familiar with the organisation known as Trevits?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Did you have any personal participation in the work of Trevits?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, there was just liaison, I never worked with Trevits itself, I worked at Trevits.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know whether Colonel Taylor, Andy Taylor was a person who frequented Trevits meetings?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't say, no I'm not sure at all.

ADV PRIOR: Can you say from your own knowledge whether Trevits was an organisation that actually targeted personnel, that's MK personnel from the ANC who were to be eliminated?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chair, Trevits was purely an administrative section at headquarters.

ADV PRIOR: Is that what your understand was, was that your understanding of the function of Trevits?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: No re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK

MR MALAN: Mr McCarter, in your application page 33 and top 34 you talk about going down on routine duties, can you just briefly try in a nutshell to explain to us what do you mean with "routine duties"?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, because we had the Askaris with us we were there in a, trying to identify trained personnel that had been trained in the camps with the Askaris and possibly do a false flag infiltration of organisations and generally keep surveillance on suspects houses, railways, bus terminuses, all that sort of thing, taxi ranks.

MR MALAN: Were you to oversee and check on the Askaris, is that what you are saying to us?  Was that your function or then the white member's function?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: You were not supposed to be operational, other than assisting them?

FRANK MCCARTER: We helped the branch wherever they had a particular need.  If they had to go out on duties or something like that or go and raid houses or whatever, we went with then.  We were there as a support.

MR MALAN: In paragraph 9(a)(iv) you say on the 20th you met Andy Taylor, did you know him from before?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: For how long?

FRANK MCCARTER: I would say about two years prior to that.

MR MALAN: Then right at the bottom you say that he requested you to kill Bhila.

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: And you continue to say that you agreed you would do it.

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Nowhere in your evidence did you refer to a request, you constructed it as an order.

FRANK MCCARTER: Well this request was an order but I just termed it like this because it wasn't as if I was standing to attention in front of his desk and being paraded, it came across basically as a request but we all knew it was an order.

MR MALAN: Why did Andy Taylor in his affidavit, page 42 of the bundle, 3.5, also refer to it as a request to yourself to have Bhila killed?

CHAIRPERSON: What page?

MR MALAN: Page 42 of the bundle.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I don't why he wrote it like that, perhaps he was putting it politely.

MR MALAN: Well Mr McCarter, can you tell me why nowhere in any of your affidavit or his there is any reference to an instruction or an order?

FRANK MCCARTER: To me a request from a senior officer is an instruction or an order.

MR MALAN: You referred in your evidence-in-chief that you were involved in at least 80 contacts, where people were killed or violence used, is that so?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: And you also stated under oath that this was the only instance where you acted against an unarmed person.