Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: After he disappearance.

DR TSOTSI: Who told you that?  How did you know that the arms were confiscated by the police, how did you get to know that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: At the time when we met together with the commander, they were left outside talking and I was inside doing a few calls and when I got back to join them that's when the commander told me that he had just said they'd confiscated the arms.  Now I won't say as to when they confiscated them, whether at that time when they were arresting him or later, that much I don't know.

MR RICHARD: Were you present when Mr Dube gave evidence yesterday and today?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I was present.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear the person who was once your commander say that the arrest in October 1987 was when the police arrested him with a firearm and a handgrenade?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: The fact that I heard that does not mean that I must commit myself to his statement.

MR RICHARD: So on your version his statement is wrong and cannot be true?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I will be wrong by so saying because I am the one who is saying I am not sure, I don't know exactly.

MR RICHARD: Because you've just said that it was only on the evening of the 24th of January 1988, the night he was shot, that you learnt through your commander that it was then that the deceased allegedly told Dube that the firearms had been confiscated from him.  That's your evidence.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't see any problem there.

MR RICHARD: I believe I don't need to argue with the witness over questions.  Now were you aware of any other arrests in and during the period October 1987 to January the 24th 1988, of the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Please repeat that question.

MR RICHARD: Are you aware of any arrests of the deceased other than the 12 October event, between the period October '87 to 24 January '88?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not sure about the other arrests except the one when I was working with him.

MR RICHARD: And which one was that, for the sake of clarity?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He was arrested in October when I was working with him.

MR RICHARD: Can you explain to us what the duties of a cell member were to the cell?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Sicelo was responsible for establishing bases, Sipho Tshabalala was my deputy, he was a commissar, Sibongiseni was the one who kept the material or our material ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: Please, Sir, the microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) material?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Sibongiseni.

ADV SANDI: Sibongiseni, who is that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Wiseman, number 4 applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Sibongiseni.

ADV SANDI: What materials were these?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't think it's related to amnesty.

MR RICHARD: Now it was the 4th applicant's responsibility to take care of equipment, is that your answer, your statement?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, he's the one.

MR RICHARD: Now if equipment was going to be needed and needed to be stored, who would be given it?  I put  it to you from your answer that it's the 4th applicant.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: So if Mr Dube wanted a weapon kept for him for his further use at a future point in time, he would have given it to Mr Zungu?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: And not to the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He could have given it to him as well, it did not mean that he wouldn't have.

MR RICHARD: Was it usual for each member of a cell to have weapons?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, it was usual.

MR RICHARD: Now other than the duty to locate places of hiding, what other duties was the deceased obliged to live up to?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I responded to that question a long time ago, that there is nothing else that he did except for that.

MR RICHARD: There were no other duties and responsibilities, he wasn't obliged to do anything else besides find hideaways?  If that's your answer say yes, or if you want to add to that add.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I have no addition to that.

DR TSOTSI: So as a commander were you not entitled to order, do this and that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did have that right.

MR RICHARD: Did you give him any other directions, orders?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I do not have specifics on that.

MR RICHARD: I don't understand that answer, did you give him any other orders or directions or regulations to follow?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I have already mentioned before that there is nothing else that I ordered him to do.

MR RICHARD: So that means this whole story that we've heard yesterday about him being obliged to report to you each and every movement, where he went, what he was going to do, is not true?

ADV SANDI: I thought that was generally an obligation for everyone to say where he is going to.

MR RICHARD: I have asked very specific questions, what other obligations rested on the deceased, were there any, were there any other instructions given, the answer has been no.

MR KOOPEDI: I believe I heard ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But there are all sorts of other instructions.  You've been asking for specific things. I have no doubt there were instructions not to mention the names of other members of the cell to outsiders and things of that nature.  And this was, as I understood it, a general instruction so that they can get in touch with you if they need you, you must tell them where you're going.

MR RICHARD: Was that an instruction that was given?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question?  Was there a general instruction amongst the members of the cell that they ought to tell others where they were going if they were going away so that they could be, contact could be made with them?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, that was indeed the case.

MR RICHARD: Prior to October 1987, did Mr Dube raise concerns with you regarding the deceased's behaviour?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: Prior to October 1987, did Mr Dube talk to about any worries, concerns that he had about the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He once asked me if I was sure of the deceased, if I trust him and when I questioned him why, he said there were some things that were happening but he was going to explain to me later.  And I only received an explanation when the deceased had disappeared.

MR RICHARD: When the deceased had disappeared, what were the explanations you received?  What were the explanations?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He explained that he had a problem that there was a time when he observed Sicelo surveilling him and that made him feel uncomfortable and he didn't know what was going on, and his disappearance left him with question marks.

MR RICHARD: Did you raise this, or did your commander raise this with any other cell members?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He mean during his disappearance?

MR RICHARD: Yes, the concerns, the worries.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We discussed it.

MR RICHARD: Now you've heard the evidence of Mr Dube, he says he gave instructions that enquiries should be made as to where the deceased was and what he was doing, is that not correct?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I didn't quite get the question, there seems to be a problem with the headset.

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR RICHARD: Did your commander, Mr Dube, give you instructions to make enquiries and to investigate where the deceased was and what he was doing?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, he did say that we should attempt to find where he was.

MR RICHARD: When did he give that instruction?