Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MR DORFLING: : Can you perhaps advance a reason why you would have made such a mistake, why you would have at that time said Mr Molefe fired first and today have a different perception?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: On that day I still remember I said I was the first to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are being referred to the record of the inquest proceedings, and according to that transcript of the record it says that Jakwe, the man Jakwe opened fire first.  You heard him open fire first before you did.  So you say that that record was incorrect or are you saying you may have said so but it was not right?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Maybe what I said was not written down properly.

MR DORFLING: : Mr Moolman I just want to give you the opportunity, I am going to be arguing in front of this committee that this record, the portion I have quoted to you, accurately reflects what was conveyed to Mr Justice Nugent by yourself and that there is nothing wrong with that record.  That you had - or you gave different evidence at the time of the inquest proceedings.  Would you like to comment on that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: What I've told this Committee is what I remember.

MR DORFLING: : I am going to move on. I will leave that for argument Mr Chair.
	Mr Moolman can I ask you about your application form itself, and I'm specifically referring to pages 92 to 98 of bundle C, Mr Chair.  Could you please get that in front of you.  Have you got it Sir?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes.

MR DORFLING: : Has this proforma or roneo form been filled in by you in person?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: : Do you confirm that it records your version as to your reasons for the amnesty application accurately or is there some problems with the forms?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I had problems here and there but the advice from my legal representatives was very useful.  I managed to fill in this form.

MR DORFLING: : Now with hindsight Sir are you happy that this form reflects your position accurately?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: : Does it relate your motivations and your reasoning from a personal point of view?  In other words are these the words that you chose to use for purposes of your application?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: : You didn't get some suggestions as to what you should put in the form from anybody else but yourself?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I said earlier on that I had problems here and there and I consulted with my lawyers and they assisted me.

MR DORFLING: : I understand your position to be that you took certain advice but once you started filling in the form when you started putting in the information that was required with regard to the actual application, were those your own words or did it come from somebody else?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I wrote what I think happened.

MR DORFLING: : You didn't perhaps get assistance from one of your co-applicants?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I would not remember because when I filled in this form I was not alone, we were quite a few.

MR DORFLING: : Was any one or more of your co-applicants with you?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes there was one.

MR DORFLING: : Who was with you Sir?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Veli Llale.

MR DORFLING: : You already testified that at the time of you filling in the form you used your own words.  Now I would like to refer you to bundle C, page 102 to 108.  Could you please get those pages in front of you Sir.  Could you just turn to page 103 paragraph 9 ... (intervention)

MR LAX: Just hang on a second Mr Dorfling he doesn't have Llale's application.

MR DORFLING: : Have you been placed in possession of a copy of Mr Llale's application?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes.

MR DORFLING: : Can I read out paragraph 9A(I) of Mr Llale's application to you Sir, it reads as follows.
"I shot at a group of IFP marchers in self-defence.  I apply for amnesty if it is found that I exceeded the bounds of self-defence".
	That's what Mr Llale said.  You see that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes.

MR DORFLING: : Can we now look at your application page 93 paragraph 9A(I).
"I shot at a group of IFP marchers in self-defence.  I apply for amnesty if I exceeded the bounds of self-defence".
	The only words that have been omitted from your application that's different from that of Mr Llale is "there is found that I",  which was inserted by Mr Llale afterwards or at a later stage.  Do you see that Sir?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes.

MR DORFLING: : Is that mere coincidence that both you and Mr Llale chose to use exactly the same wording to paragraph 9A(I)?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I do not - I am illiterate I don't quite understand English that's why I requested Mr Llale to help me and I looked at his form.

MR DORFLING: : But wait a minute Mr Moolman a few questions ago we cleared this out.  You said the words used in this application were your own words.  Are you now saying they were indeed Mr Llale's words?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I said when we filled these forms in it was after the advice from our legal advisers, we took advices from them.

MR DORFLING: : I am going to repeat the question Mr Moolman.  Are you saying that the words you used on your application form were indeed the words used by Mr Llale?  Did you copy his words?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I think so I would not dispute that.

MR DORFLING: : Are you now changing your evidence are you now saying it's not my own words it's Mr Llale's words?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I have said Sir that English really beats me.  I looked at Mr Llale's and he explained everything to me and what he wrote was exactly what I would have loved to put in my form.  If it was requested that I write in seSotho or even when I consulted with my legal advisers they said yes carry on those are right things.

MR DORFLING: : Mr Moolman I do not want to go through the whole statement let's just look at one specific paragraph which I am particularly interested in and that is paragraph 10A which sets out your objectives and your justification for having done what you did.  Can you look at your application page 94 Sir.  Perhaps before we get to paragraph 10A you can also, at the same page, page 94 look at paragraph 9B it is the first filled in paragraph on page 94 of your application Sir.  It reads
"I don't know if anyone was killed or injured as a result of my action".
You made it quite clear to Mr Justice Nugent that in your perception you did not injure or hit anybody by firing the shot with the shotgun because it jerked up.  Is that not true?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct. But I said when in consultation with my lawyers they advised me that there are many aspects involved in the self-defence issue.  The court might find that some incidents did not happen as I related  them.

MR DORFLING: : But Sir it could simply not have been your own words that you are not sure whether any one was injured or killed because that was not your position.  That wasn't what you believed at the time.  This must have have come from somewhere else.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: When I gave this statement before Judge Nugent is what I - that's my recollection.

MR DORFLING: : But then your application dated the 10th of May, or submitted on the 10th of May contained a untruth Sir.  That wasn't what you believed is set out in paragraph 9B.  Would you like to respond?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: What I said before the inquest was that it would be impossible to have hit someone according to me because of my position.  But after consulting with my lawyers they explained to me that self-defence has many issues with it.  It might have been just an oversight or maybe things didn't happen according to how I related them.

MR DORFLING: : Mr Moolman your application was made under oath it says clearly you don't know whether anyone was injured, that's a blatant lie.  That wasn't your position on the 10th of May.