Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-08

MR MARITZ: 2A because I don't have a brief for them, but my own clients, which are on record, deny that the military supplied arms and ammunition to Inkatha at any time.

WITNESS:   Can I ask a question?

CHAIRPERSON: If there's something you want to clarify about what Mr Maritz has said, you can clarify it, but you can't ask him a question, unless it's a clarifying question about what he said.

WITNESS:   As it pleases, I will follow what you say.  My view is that the military intelligence trained these people and they were the very same people who supplied arms to these people and they were the ones who were giving advice to the people.  That's what I'm setting.

MR MARITZ: Mr Luthuli, I don't know whether anything turns on it at all, but I act upon instructions, No 1 and, No 2, I'm curious.  When your evidence was led my recollection is that there was some attempt to establish your present political affiliation, and I don't think we've got a clear answer on that.  Will you please tell us what your present political affiliation is?

WITNESS:   There isn't anything that I can say because I am just before the Commission at the moment.  I last knew myself as an Inkatha member.  I haven't moved.  I am still standing there.

MR MARITZ: You obviously know what you said in your statement to the ITU, and there's quite a lengthy passage about you becoming disenchanted with the IFP and that you decided that you wanted to go back to the ANC, that you had discussions with the various people and that eventually - I think the gist of it is that you were required to remain in the IFP and pass on information, but that you had a

MR MARITZ: /desire to

MR MARITZ: 2A desire to return to the ANC and possibly you have.  I don't know.

WITNESS:   Can I explain?  The time you are referring to is a time when I was just being released from Robben Island.  I wished to get contact with the MK - Umkhonto we Sizwe - outside the country.  I couldn't.  I tried and tried and I finally got successful.  I found them and I told them that I have joined the Inkatha.  Chris Hani said to me, "Because of the situation you can stay inside the Inkatha, because we aren't enemies with Inkatha.  However, if you had to stay somewhere where we don't know where you fall, the special branch will be following you".  That's what I want to correct.  As you are stating that I was about to leave Inkatha and go for the ANC, it was at the time when things started to come out, the Codesa, TEC, the Constitution, the Caprivi's and Inkatha didn't participate in any of all these incidents I'm mentioning, and since I'm a person who can speak for myself I used to talk and when I tried to talk to him and they picked up from my speeches that I was sympathising with the ANC they started distributing propaganda that I have joined the ANC.  It is them who said so - it's M Z Khumalo who said so and Mr Visser knows that.  I never myself personally said I wanted to join the ANC.  It's M Z Khumalo and his people who said that.  That's why I'm still standing where I was.

MR MARITZ: I don't know whether this is an important issue at all, but I merely want to read to you what is stated in this statement of yours and I'm reading from paragraph 39 and I think I'll read the entire 39, which makes it plain that it doesn't appear as if you are being entirely candid.  It says the following,

MR MARITZ: /"Kay Mtshali was

MR MARITZ: 2A      "Kay Mtshali was an Inkatha Youth member whom I had trained at Mpumalanga.  He was married to my niece.  We were very friendly.  He had been telling me for a long time that he was in contact with a man by the name of Magadhla.  He told me that Magadhla worked for the ANC and wanted to meet with me.  By the end of 1994 ..."

MR MARITZ: That's long after Robben Island.

MR MARITZ: "... I had become thoroughly disillusioned with the IFP and wanted to return to the ANC.  I expressed an interest in meeting Magadhla.  Before Kay was able to set up a meeting he was murdered."

MR MARITZ: And then I carry on to 39.8.

MR MARITZ: "A series of meetings took place between Magadhla and I and as a result thereof I had a meeting with Jacob Zuma.  They wanted to debrief me and wanted me to remain at Ulundi in the employment of the IFP and pass on intelligence to them.  I wanted to be accepted into the new SADF together with the Caprivians.  We were still in the process of negotiation and had not reached any agreement.  I was not debriefed by the ANC.  I was still considering my options when, soon after this meeting, I became aware through Advocate Visser that there was a suspicion within the IFP that I was meeting with the ANC.  I stopped all further meetings because I was not sure as to how this information had come to

MR MARITZ: /the knowledge

MR MARITZ: 2A the knowledge of the IFP.  I thought that there may have been a leak in the ANC."

MR MARITZ: Is that all correct?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: Have you still not made a decision?

WITNESS:   No.

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR MARITZ: I have kept my word.  I've been very brief, but can we have a tea adjournment, so that I could just consider my position finally?
MR   (?)   : Mr Chairman, I'm sorry to interrupt, but what came across as, "No" was interpreted as, "Yes".

CHAIRPERSON: That is rather confusing.  We can have a short adjournment, Mr Maritz, but, sorry, that last issue.  You said, "Have you made up your mind?"

MR MARITZ: I said, "You have still not made up your mind?" and he said, "No, I haven't".

CHAIRPERSON: Did you mean as to which camp you belonged to?

MR MARITZ: Because he says in the statement that he hadn't made up his mind and I was asking whether it was still the same position.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I heard him say, "No" in Zulu and, "Yes" in English.

MR MARITZ: In fairness to the witness, Mr Chairman, I think it should be clarified.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Luthuli, the question of Mr Maritz, have you still not made up your mind whether you are with the IFP or the ANC, or where are you?

WITNESS:   (Witness replies in English)  No.  I have not decided yet.

CHAIRPERSON: MR    (?)  : I am sorry, Mr Chairman, I also would like one clarification.  You'll know what it's about.  I'm not sure I understand what's going on here.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I was just going to say we would break for
 /20 minutes.
2A 20 minutes.
MR   (?)   : Perhaps I should ask my learned friend, Mr Maritz.

CHAIRPERSON: Any problem after the break you can put the question to Mr Luthuli.  Thank you, ten past.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION
DALUXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI