Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I told you that it was pointless shooting people - we said it in a political context of people going out and shooting people in politics on the street, that was an off the cuff remark in that context and you saw it clearly that I disapproved of that kind of thing - on the tap.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: Mrs Derby-Lewis, I wonder if you can help me, at some stage during these proceedings - and I regret I can't tell you now when, I was given a list and I would like you to have a look at it please. My copy is marked E12 and above that is a B44.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know the list?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, it looks like it's in my husband's handwriting.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, it looks like?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: My husband's handwriting - my husband's printing.

JUDGE WILSON: You can't say when it was drawn up?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

JUDGE WILSON: You don't know?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you, can I have it back?

GEORGE BIZOS: We can be of assistance Mr Chairman, because we have a recollection of what mention was made of this list, if it's going to be of any assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

GEORGE BIZOS: It was taken from Mr Derby-Lewis's pocket book.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I've listen carefully to your evidence and from time to time you said that you made statements at a time when you were under Section 29 and you were led to believe that statements made by people under Section 29 cannot be used in a trial against them, is that correct?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said that from time to time, you were led to believe that you might be a state witness and that you won't be charged as an accused.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What effect did these statements have on you and the knowledge that you were being held under Section 29, what effect did all that have on the answers that you gave to the questions that were put to you during the interrogation?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, the effect was that I was going to get out.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: The effect was that I was going to get out, he told me that I was going to get out.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, - that you're going to get out?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, he was going to release me so ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not talking about the consequences are, I'm talking about what effect did these two aspects have on the answers you gave to the questions that were put to you?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I didn't think that they would be used in a court, therefore I didn't believe that I would be questioned on the content of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other effect?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not more likely that because you knew that you were no longer in danger or that you may no longer be in danger, that you were prepared to speak the truth?  You were put at ease that you were not going to be charged, Section 29 statements can't be used against you and that led you into a frame of mind where you spoke the truth.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Are you referring to the statements that I made with Captain de Waal?  No, no, I was told to write certain things and he said: "You will stay here until you're finished writing them", so I wrote them in order to get out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I understand all that, I'm talking about the contents of what you wrote - that the contents of what you wrote, they are likely to be true because you yourself now felt that you were no longer in danger of being prosecuted and therefore there was a good reason why you should be telling the truth.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, no, they were not true and that wasn't a reason why I should tell the truth, I simply wrote what he told me to write, whether it was the truth or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You know Mrs Derby-Lewis, apart from whatever he asked you in response to your answers or rather your answers to Deetleffs, were they not influenced by the fact that you were no longer going to be charged and that your statements under Section 29 couldn't be used against you?  Were you not influenced by those considerations?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: In regards to writing what I wrote?

CHAIRPERSON: In regard to answering whatever questions were put to you.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I'm sorry, I don't - I really don't understand what you're saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now, I'm not drawing a distinction between what you wrote and the answers you may have give verbally.  You see, when a person is under threat there's a likelihood that such a person would lie in the belief that they will come out of the difficulty they have, when a person is under no threat they're likely to tell the truth because they're not fearing anything.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That's correct, isn't it?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, that's the purpose of my questions to you, you see.  That the likelihood is that when you realised that you were no longer under a personal threat of prosecution, that whatever you said was more likely to be true, is that not so?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean that there'd be a need to lie even when you know you are not in danger?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't know I was not in danger, he promised to take me - to let me out if I wrote XYZ and I had to write XYZ in order to make that promise a realisation, I didn't completely trust him or anybody there.  From what I could see, they were intent on implicating me and when they - they had now - when I see Section 29, when I see all the police dockets, I realise that they were rushing off to the Attorney General to charge me with murder, which they didn't tell me they were going to do, it was exactly the opposite.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, if they told you they were going to charge you with murder and put questions to you, there's a likelihood that you would say: "I have nothing to say" ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, but I didn't ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Alternatively you will say something which you might regard to be an answer which might help you in the case against you but when you are told that you are facing no threat, you're not going to be charged, the statement you made cannot be used against you, that puts you in a frame of mind when you are likely to speak the truth, is that not so?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I was in the frame of mind where I had already written and he said: "No, that doesn't tally up and that's not correct" and "You must write this" and I simply wrote what he wrote - it wasn't a matter of telling the truth or anything, it was a mechanical reaction to what he told me to do.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: And he did tell me to do it, I - there's no question about it, I kept notes myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand your evidence.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: On some of the tapes that I saw yesterday during the interrogation, my impression was that on occasions you appeared to be tired or exhausted.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you have a different view, my impression is that your hair was not even well kept?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I didn't have any toiletries except soap and I washed my hair and I didn't have a chance to blow-dry it or anything like that - it's interesting that you noticed that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With regard to page 402 of R4, paragraph 51 or to put it in proper context, we can look at 48
"I was very shocked but in my heart not at all surprised"
I think 48 describes your reaction to the news that Mr Hani was killed and or perhaps also the involvement of Kuba.