Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

UNKNOWN: Yes and then you testified under cross-examination that you did not report the killing of the informers for instance to Mr de Kock.  Is that also correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir

UNKNOWN: You also then said that you just followed instructions and I'm not clear on this when - let me rather ask you when you said that you just followed instructions with these instructions from Mr Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: So you never received any instructions from Mr de Kock whilst you were down here in Cape Town?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I never got any instructions from him.

UNKNOWN: And you further then testified that you never discussed this particular operation with Mr de Kock is that also correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: And Mr de Kock wasn't aware of the fact that you were training these young men down in Cape Town with the view of possibly attacking police officers?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, Mr Brent Williams.

MR B WILLIAMS: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mbane if we can just get some clarity on questions that have been raised with you by Mr Bellingan's counsel regarding the fact that you did not question the instructions to train unarmed youths.  Firstly wasn't it, isn't it correct that as part of your infiltration and as part as your living out a legend as an Askari, it was not unusual for you to supply weapons and ammunition to the people you were meant to infiltrate?  I'm asking that question generally.

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: In other words there were other operations that you were involved in, in which you as part as your infiltration supplied weapons and ammunition to the group or groups or individuals that you were infiltrating?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: So when Mr Bellingan's counsel expresses surprise at the thought that the police would want to arm the enemy, it is strange not so?

JIMMY MBANE: Please rephrase your question.

MR B WILLIAMS: I will try.  When Mr Bellingan's counsel expresses surprise at the fact that the police could contemplate or that Mr Bellingan could contemplate arming and training the enemy as he put it, that is strange not so, because that is the kind of work that you did?

JIMMY MBANE: It was not the first time that I did that it was the usual thing.  I hope that fulfils the question.

MR B WILLIAMS: In other words it was part and parcel of you living out your legend that you would supply arms and train people, am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes it was the usual norm.

MR B WILLIAMS: And that is precisely what happened with this group of people as well, not so?  The Guguletu 7.

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: So notwithstanding the fact that they were considered to be the enemy, part of the plan was to gain their confidence by supplying them with arms and giving them ammunition, not so?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But I understood from your evidence that when you met them, you discovered that they were not the enemy.  That they were no danger to anybody.  Wasn't that the evidence you gave?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you weren't infiltrating a dangerous gang, you were just mixing with four innocent young men.  Is that so?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: If I may intervene here, Mr Mbane, with the addition of Rasta, because he was trained internally would the complexion to the innocence of the group you are training have changed?

JIMMY MBANE: Please repeat the question.

UNKNOWN: I say, other than the four young men you met initially, you were subsequently joined by Rasta, who was trained inside the country, he joined this initial group making it five, let's confine ourselves to five now.  Would the complexion that these people were innocent have changed with somebody who has been trained and having an AK47?

JIMMY MBANE: That's where the whole thing changed.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, you can continue, Mr Williams.

MR B WILLIAMS: Thank you very much.  Mr Mbane, just to complete this line of questioning, I notice that you refer in your Johannesburg affidavit at paragraph 42 to a very similar set of circumstances where you supplied one Intombe in, if I'm not mistaken, in Durban, with a bag of AK47's as part of the legend.   Am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct.

MR B WILLIAMS: Am I also correct in saying that some of the people involved in that particular group and Intombe herself was subsequently killed, am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: The sum total is that arming the enemy was part of Vlakplaas' covert operations. Not so?  Am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Now you have said that the complexion of this group which initially appeared to be untrained changed when Chris Rasta had joined the group.  Confirm that?  Would you confirm that?

JIMMY MBANE: There was information that these boys were troublesome when we showed the four photos and if they happened not to be trained we were going to train them anyway even if Rasta did not come by the look of things.  I hope that fulfils the question.

MR B WILLIAMS: Would part of your infiltration of a group also be to draw in other possible people who are comrades and who are trained and who you are not aware of?  Would that be part of your role as an Askari to draw in people who are not immediately part of the group?

JIMMY MBANE: We don't normally do that but people just normally come to join in with the hope that we come from exile.

MR B WILLIAMS: Yes isn't that the way that you, part of the way that you gather your intelligence?

JIMMY MBANE: We used to infiltrate a specified group and if there were any other people who were interested in joining, we would allow them, we wouldn't chase them away.

MR B WILLIAMS: Your direct evidence has been that Mr Bellingan had instructed you after you had informed him that these four people were untrained, he'd instructed you that their training must be proceeded with.  Am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Did you assume that part of the purpose for this exercise would be to possibly to draw in other people to identify other comrades as well?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: And self-evidently you were successful because you drew in additional people into that group as well.  Not so?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct.

MR B WILLIAMS: I want to deal briefly with the weapons.  Captain Bellingan has testified that when weapons were issued to Askaris to be utilised as part of their legend, the instruction to the Askaris was that they should try as far as possible to maintain control over those weapons.  Is that what you also understood to be your instructions, with regard to weapons?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I tried to do that.

MR B WILLIAMS: Right, now it's a matter of dispute between yourself and Captain Bellingan regarding the extent of the weaponry.  He says that you were given two AK47's, one Tokorev and ammunition as well and you say you were given four AK47's a Makorev, a Tokorev and hand grenades as well.

JIMMY MBANE: We were handed four AK47 rifles, eight magazines, four hand grenades and four ...(indistinct), one Makorev and one Tokorev. That's what we were handed.

MR B WILLIAMS: Can you explain to the Committee what efforts you made to exercise control over the weapons that you say were supplied to you during the time that you had infiltrated. this group?

JIMMY MBANE: I tried to make sure that they stay with us, not with them.  We bought a trunk and we stored them in it.  They were always under our management.

MR B WILLIAMS: Are you saying that the trunk was in your vehicle all the time or was it at a particular place all the time?