Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

MS PRETORIUS: It reads:  "To conclude my statement, I would like to say to the community of Boipatong and to the residents who lost their loved ones, I am very sorry and I'm asking them to forgive me because today I am behind bars and I realise what a dreadful thing we did that night.  I would like to tell the Committee that we would not have done these things if the people of Boipatong did not terrorise the IFP members.  If the comrades had not killed the IFP members we realise that we partook in the massacre of people, some who were my family and friends and I feel very bad about this.  If it had not been a war situation between the IFP and the ANC, I would not have participated.  I am especially sorry for the young children who died for nothing because I know that they didn't do anything and didn't know anything about the attack and the problems between the IFP and the ANC.  I do apologise and know there is no way I can bring these people back.  I do ask in the spirit of peace and reconciliation that they will forgive me and that we can carry on with our lives without hatred because I am a child of God.  I ask for forgiveness from everybody in Boipatong and especially to those who lost their loved ones."  Is that the paragraph you wrote?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is so.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Mthembu, there have been allegations that the police was involved in this attack.  Did you speak to Dr d'Oliveira's special investigative unit about this - about police involvement at the Boipatong Massacre?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, what I can say is that I don't know about the involvement of the police in this incident.

MS PRETORIUS: According to you were the police involved?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No.

MS PRETORIUS: And you stand by your statement?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: Were the army involved in any way in this attack?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, they were not involved.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, do you have any questions to put to the applicant?

MR STRYDOM: Only a few questions.

MR STRYDOM: Who made the decision to attack Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Tjonjo.

MR STRYDOM: Only him, or someone else as well?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He worked with Mr Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: Were you with them when they made a decision or not?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was not present when they made the decision.

MR STRYDOM: Can you tell the Committee where Mr Damara Tjonjo is today?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I know what I heard whilst I was in prison is that he is deceased.

MR STRYDOM: More or less when did you hear that he died?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think it was in 1993 when I was in prison, I cannot quite remember the date.

MR STRYDOM: I briefly want to enquire more about the background and the reason for the attack and when I say background, that's the background that gave reason to the strike between the IFP staying in the Kwamadala Hostel and the people staying in the townships, more specifically Boipatong.  Can you give us more information in this regard?

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you answer that question, you've referred to a Mr Mkhize, would you give us his names please?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: ...[indistinct] Nkosi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Firstly I will say while people were attacked in Boipatong, as far as I know I was surprised when we were called to the stadium.  We congregated, I was surprised at the time at which the meeting was called because it was not usually or it was not normal that meetings were called at about 8 p.m. in the evening.  On our arrival at the stadium every person who stayed in Kwamadala Hostel was present but what surprised me was that women were told to return to the hostel.  They left and it was only men who remained.  That was when Mr Tjonjo told us that we had to attack the people of Boipatong.  We prepared everything until the traditional potion or Indelezi was sprinkled on us before we went on this mission.  From there ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, would you just bear in mind that there are interpreters who are interpreting what you are saying into other languages and would you please speak slowly so that you can afford them time to interpret what you're saying.  Do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I understand, I'll do so.

MR STRYDOM: Can I also just interrupt you here, Mr Mthembu, I just want to repeat my question just to make it clear to you - I want to know about the problems between the IFP people staying in the Kwamadala Hostel and the people that stayed in the townships at that stage.  If you can answer that question please?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Our problem with the people who stayed in the township was that there was conflict between us in that there were comrades who prevented people who stayed at Kwamadala Hostel from buying at shops in the location.  That hurt us very much when we discovered that they would actually attack our comrades and necklace them, that is what the people in the township did.  As far as I can tell, I think that was the cause of the conflict because if a person was discovered to be an IFP member he would have to be killed if he was found in the township.

MR STRYDOM: Were certain people killed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: There are many people who died, many whose funerals I attended.  If they went to the township for instance to visit their parents, but if the comrades spotted them there, they would actually take them and kill them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you feel free to move around in Boipatong at that time?  I'm referring to 1992.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was not free to move around in Boipatong at that time but I would do so.  For instance I had to take taxis to town from Boipatong and just hope that I won't be killed.

MR STRYDOM: Do you names of any IFP members that was killed before the 17th June 1992 in the township?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The person I remember was some boy, ....[indistinct] boy from Mahlabatini, he was one of the people who was killed in that location.  I don't remember the names of the others because I did not know them well.

MR STRYDOM: In the Kwamadala Hostel lived two groups of people.  Firstly the people that worked for ISCOR and another group of people that fled to that hostel and found refuge there, is that indeed so?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: People were united in the hostel, there were people who were working and there were people who had fled from the township and sort refuge in the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know why the people fled from the townships to the hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The reason was the violence, the conflict between the ANC and the IFP, that was why they fled because their houses were being burnt.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Strydom.  Mr Berger, I understand your predicament.  What do you propose to do, do you have any questions that you want to put at this stage?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I explained in Chambers or in the Committee Room, we have not yet had an opportunity to consult with any of the victims or any of the families and so we are not in a position at the moment to put any questions.  We would ask that the matter be adjourned until tomorrow and hopefully at that stage we will then be in a position to put questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it apply to you?

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Brink do you have any?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I have no questions at this stage and if I would have then it would possibly after Mr Berger has put all the questions which he intends putting but at this stage I have nothing to ask.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK