Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: I don't see your difficulty.  If your client does not know anything about this witness, your client will say so.   On the other hand, after he has put questions, if you want to consult with your client, you may do so.

UNKNOWN: I will appreciate that.

CHAIRPERSON: This person, Bongani Jonas, is not giving evidence, he is a victim, he has come here to oppose this application and he wants to question the applicant.

UNKNOWN: I am not objecting to that, I am just placing it on record.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Cook, I don't think we are on the same page.  I don't think Mr Jonas here, really can actually form part of the pool of the people that you client cannot remember having assaulted, because he has already responded to questions put by Mr Kruse about Mr Jonas' incident.	He has remembered specifically about Mr Jonas and the fact that he never actually trampled on Mr Jonas' wounded leg when he was assaulted by Mr Barnard.  So it is an incident which really is within his recollection.

UNKNOWN: I do not have a problem with that, that the person is asking questions.  I just wanted to place on record which problems I am experiencing.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand your difficulty, but Mr Jonas is not giving evidence, he is just putting questions.  So the fact that you haven't been furnished with a statement beforehand, of all the people who want to ask questions, there is no such procedure whereby we can furnish you with statements, we don't have statements of these people who have come here pursuant to an advertisement that an application for amnesty is being made, those who feel aggrieved are entitled to come here and put forward and ask questions.
	Mr Jonas, do you wish to put some questions to this witness?

MR JONAS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Or have you come here to give evidence?

MR JONAS: No, I will ask some questions, thank you.

MS INTHANGA: Mr Chairman, can I proceed?  Before Mr Jonas asks questions, can I just state for the record that we are not in possession of any statements from the victims who have testified here, including Mr Jonas, that includes the Investigative Unit.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jonas, do carry on.

MR JONAS: Captain Benzien, good afternoon.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Good afternoon.

MR JONAS: Do you still remember my combat name?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Give me a minute to think - Thabi?

MR JONAS: Thabi, yes, and that was more than 10 years ago?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: Thank you.  I hope your memory will be sound throughout.  Are you a professional policeman Captain?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I try to be a professional policeman.

MR JONAS: Do you uphold the professional ethics and norms of policing?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: To the best of my ability, yes.

MR JONAS: Has that been your standpoint throughout your experience in the police?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: To the best of my ability, yes.

MR JONAS: At the time of my capturing, did you or your colleagues use the normal conventional methods of arresting a suspect or did you use unconventional methods?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At the time of your arrest?

MR JONAS: Yes, at the time of my capturing or arresting.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As I understand, you were shot at and wounded.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, shouldn't you ask him questions about what he knows about your arrest if he was at all in it.

MR JONAS: I think the question is relevant to what I want to drive to.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, put your question.

MR JONAS: The question is did they stick with the conventional methods of policing or did they apply unconventional methods?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Unless I am not answering the question incorrectly, please stop me.  The method of your arrest as I remember it, was that Mr Tony Yengeni was already in custody and detained at Milnerton police station.  He was supposed to that evening have a rendezvous with you in Athlone.  The specific area where he told us to take up position for your capture or ambush, was pointed out by him.  Subsequently, Mr Yengeni had been transported in a police vehicle from Milnerton police station when they passed you in your vehicle on the N2.
	The people who were escorting Mr Yengeni, either them or the Unit that they called for backup, then pursued you to the area nearby the airport where it is alleged that you tried to evade escape and you were shot at.
	Now if the unconventional means was shooting, I don't see that as unconventional, and I do not see it as unconventional that an informant for the South African police at that stage, had identified you to the police at that stage.

MR JONAS: I am afraid Captain, you do not address my question.  My question is, did you use conventional methods of policing or may I put it this way - do you use ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry Mr Jonas, but isn't the point which was raised by my brother, quite relevant?  Was he there or is he expected to tell us what he was told by other people as to how he was arrested.  Was he there during your arrest?
	Shouldn't you start there, because if he was not there, surely he is just going to tell us what was told by the other people as to how you were arrested.

MR JONAS: I will come to that because I can put it to you that he was part of the team because he led the interrogation and it was a preplanned operation.  Whether at the spot, he was not there, but an operation is planned and he is part of the planning. 	Though he may be tasked on a specific part of the whole operation, but in the orders group of the operation, he was part of.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you present when Mr Jonas was arrested?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you told as to how he was arrested, later?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

MR JONAS: Did he know about the operation to arrest me beforehand?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was aware of it, as I explained to the court, Sir.

MR JONAS: Was he part of the team for my arrest?  Were you Mr Jeff Benzien?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would have been part of the team as such if you had made the rendezvous that Mr Yengeni had told us that you were going to make.  Being in position in the Athlone area, I was part of the complete operation, but not after he had been seen driving on the N2 by Mr Yengeni and then a pursuit took place.

MR JONAS: The question I asked earlier is not being addressed, of the conventional methods.  Because when I was shot, a citizen's car was used in the ambush, it was not a police car and he has acknowledged himself if we listened properly that an ambush was set up, that is why I want to know is it a conventional method that was applied or was it a preplanned method?

JUDGE WILSON: But isn't that a perfectly conventional method when you think somebody is coming to an area, to set up an ambush to catch him there?

MR JONAS: Come again?

JUDGE WILSON: Isn't that a perfectly conventional method that if you think a criminal is coming to a certain spot, to set up policemen in plain clothes there to arrest him when he arrives at that spot?

MR JONAS: Sir the constitution limits the parameters of policing as well as the ambit of the military because the primary aim of the police is to effect an arrest and in my case, it was visa versa, it was an ambush, shooting, then an arrest.  That is why then I see ...

JUDGE WILSON: That is not as I understand the evidence that this man has said - they received information from Yengeni that you were going to Athlone.	They surrounded that area and set up a arrangement to capture you when you arrived at Athlone, perfectly conventional policing.
Quite by chance you were seen travelling in a vehicle and identified and they then set off in pursuit of you.

MR JONAS: Was I identified in Athlone?

JUDGE WILSON: No, driving along the N2.

MR JONAS: N2, by chance?  Tell me then ...