Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, after I had been instructed by or given the go-ahead to use material from Gordon's unit for the Edendale operation, I had to pick up what was left of the cache.  Apparently the unit had panicked and had dropped, had left a number, some of the material in dangerous places.  In one incident, a child I think had a hand badly injured, after picking up one of these devices.  The result was that the weapons were then left at some sympathetic comrades' homes.  When I went there to pick up the weapons, they then requested of me, to train them in the use of some of the weapons, as they were under attack from Inkatha on a regular basis at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr McBride, can you give us any indication, how many people did you train, two, three?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Four.  Four people sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Four people?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it just what you would call a crash training course?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one session?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It was maybe about three hours in total, and Welile Khumalo at that stage, initially would continue the training after the Edendale operation with them, because he knew them.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you supplied them with weapons?  What type of weapons would that have been?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I cannot remember now, sir, but it included handgrenades.

CHAIRPERSON: Firearms and handgrenades?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I don't recall firearms specifically, but handgrenades, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You can definitely recall handgrenades?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.  And with regard to (h) ...

MR DEHAL: We will deal with that shortly.  Mr Chairperson, are there any further questions from the Chair on this, on (f)?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think so, no.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Mr McBride, if I may take you again, sorry, now to (h), on page 106.  Again, this is not a count which was dealt with in the preliminary proceeding pages in bundle A1, that we have now traversed and completed.   May I just question you on this, you say here - "in line with ANC leadership decisions and the provisions of the National Peace Accord" you refer to attached documents.  We don't have that attached document, but you say "I was involved in the training, organising and political education of Self Defence Units.  I was also tasked with the responsibility of supplying weapons and communication equipment such as two-way radio's to Self Defence Units.  I was also involved in assisting SDU's with reconnaissance of potential attackers."  Do you recall that aspect in your amnesty application, that you seek amnesty for?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Can you deal with that briefly?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.  When I was released from prison in September 1992, I was instructed to work on the ANC's Peace Desk for the Gauteng Province.   I dealt with violence and violence monitoring and the training of paralegals who would monitor violence and take note.  It was at the stage where the apartheid Stage had used its surrogates to massacre township residents.  At that stage, I had witnessed the terror being visited upon the communities by people from the hostels, who identified themselves as Inkatha.  Inkatha members had also said they want to take over the East Rand, the area I was active in and make it their base.  The result was that people were killed every day.  I could not stand by and allow this to happen.

JUDGE PILLAY: Which people were killed every day?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Township residents were killed by the hostel dwellers.  Every day we would pick up on average 20 bodies, every day.  I could not stand by and let this continue, so I went to a number of comrades including comrade Rashid, comrade Ronnie Kasrils and others, to request weapons and to be given the go-ahead to train people and set up the defence units in the area.   They all agreed and I worked closely with the political leadership in the area, and trained people and armed people to defend themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this mainly in the East Rand, Tokoza, those, Vosloorus, those type places?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: In particular those areas.  The whole of Gauteng was my responsibility.

CHAIRPERSON: And for how long were you involved in this sort of activity?  You have mentioned 1992?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well, I was mentioned till after the ANC came into power.

CHAIRPERSON: So from 1992 through to 1994?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: 1994, for example I was involved together with the South African Police Services in negotiating an amnesty to hand in weapons, which took place on October the 16th for all defence units, together with former Justice Minister, Omar.  That is the extent.  Until such time that the presidential project was kicked off, it was taken over by the communities themselves, and then I left.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr McBride, you say you make application for amnesty for matters raised in paragraph (h)?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: What offences would that be?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Possession of weapons and supply of weapons to defence units.

JUDGE PILLAY: So it will be strictly in terms of the Arms and Ammunitions Act that you apply?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And those weapons would include what, firearms, grenades, what sort of weapons?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, mainly grenades, firearms and ammunition.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, do you know if any of those firearms and ammunition were used by the Self Defence Units that you trained?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Oh, they were definitely used, definitely used.  In fact, if it was not for those firearms, the place would have been overrun by the hostel dwellers.  Those firearms helped in defending the community, I am hundred percent sure of that.  In fact President Mandela, when he was briefed on this matter, in and around July 1993, praised the Self Defence Units in speaking at Huntersfield Stadium in Katlehong, for the good work they did in defending communities.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr McBride, may I now take you to page 107 of your application for amnesty, perhaps you can look at that bundle.

JUDGE PILLAY: Before you get there, Mr McBride, paragraph (f), would that be the same?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Sir, the difference between paragraphs (f) and (h) is in (f) people were being recruited for Umkhonto weSizwe, it was during, this was during the 1980's, before I went to prison sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: I was just wondering what offence would that constitute today?  I don't know, but that is not your problem, that is mine.  I have to see what offence that would be.

CHAIRPERSON: Supply of handgrenades.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Terrorism, is it?

MR DEHAL: It was terrorism in those days.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I have page 106, 107.

CHAIRPERSON: You can continue.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.   Yes, Mr McBride, if I take you now to page 107, you see below (iii) you say "for the injuries, deaths, sadness", do you mind reading that paragraph?  If you will bring it here, I will just show it to you.  From here onwards.
MR McBRIDE
	"For the injuries, deaths, sadness and loss of life that I have caused people through my participation in the struggle to liberate our country, I am truly sorry.   I hope that through this amnesty application, I am able to in some way contribute towards the very long and painful process of reconciliation and healing."

MR DEHAL: Is it correct that you featured prominently in government, in parliament, when the TRC Act was being voted, that you participated actively in voting in the TRC Act?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, as a legislature in national parliament, as a legislator in national parliament, I voted for this particular Act, sometime during September/October 1995.