Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR STRYDOM: Well, if you don't know if he is dead or alive, how can you give that reason that they implicate Chonco because he is dead, Damara, because he is dead?  Darkie may also be dead?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Damara died, I do not know with regards to Darkie.

MR STRYDOM: So you specifically heard that Damara is dead?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I am saying is that Damara died.  I do not know as to what happened to Darkie.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I just want one of the applicants to stand up to be identified.  Can the first row of applicants just stand up please.  Can this person on the left, just move out please.  Do you know that person, Mr Nosenga?  The one on the left, the other two may be seated.  I just want ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not see him for the first time, but I do not remember his name.  He was an IFP member residing at the hostel.  He also appeared before this Committee.  I also know the others in the front row.  They are all members of the IFP.

MR STRYDOM: So the person that is standing, you can't give his name?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember his name.  As I said before, there were many people living at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Just to get clarity, but before these hearings here, when you were staying in the hostel, did you see him in the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  That is the person standing.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any details about a position, or his situation in the hostel, or was he just according to you, a person in the hostel, just another person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, he was an IFP member, residing at the hostel.  He was a hostel resident as he was an IFP member.

MR STRYDOM: If I put to you, let me just get clarity, that is not, his nickname is not Gatchene?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR STRYDOM: When you referred to Gatchene during your evidence, you did not refer to that person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know a certain Gatchene, maybe there were two Gatchene's.

MR STRYDOM: No, I am not stating he is Gatchene, but you didn't, when you spoke about a Gatchene, you didn't refer to him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I know Gatchene.

MR STRYDOM: The applicant can be seated, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, what is the applicant's name?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is Mr Mkhize, Bhekinkosi Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, from your evidence now, I can gather that - no, let me first ask another question, the night of the attack, before the attack at the stadium, did you see the person we know now as Mr Mkhize?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did state that I didn't see everyone, maybe he was also present, but I noticed there is an induna who was present at the stadium.  There were many people there, so he could have been present as well.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but you can't specifically remember him at the stadium, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I do not remember.  I cannot commit myself to having seen him.

MR STRYDOM: Do you in fact say that you can't say that you saw him on the 17th of June 1992, at all?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I stated before, there were many people in the stadium, there were many people who were from Natal, residing at the hostel, it could be that he was present, but I only noticed the induna, our leaders.  Some hostel residents, I did not know, some I knew them by their first names, some I did not even know their names.

MR STRYDOM: Were you at the hearings already when Mr Mkhize testified?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, but I was not in this hall, I was in another room in the same building.

MR STRYDOM: But you could hear what he was saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember, there are so many people who rendered their testimony here.  I did not hear him.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, I want to put to you that Mr Mkhize testified and so has all the other applicants, that he was a key person, in fact he was one of the two leaders of the attack on Boipatong.  Do you dispute that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, there were induna's there, Gatchene was present too.  I am saying the attack on Boipatong was, or should I say, did not involve only two people, not the Mkhize that he is talking about.  I don't know anything about that.

MR STRYDOM: I further want to put to you that the other leader was Damara Chonco?  Can you answer that, the other leader was Damara Chonco?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is a mistake.  Darkie, yes, was present, but I did not see him.  I am saying the one person that I saw in charge of the firearms, was Darkie Chonco, I did not see Damara.  Now, if you are saying it was Mkhize and Damara who were leading the attack on Boipatong, really that is something news to me.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that indicates that you were not part of the attack, because all the other people said that they were leading?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They are mistaken.  They are not giving you the right information.

MR STRYDOM: At any meeting prior to the attack, did you see the person we know now as Mr Mkhize, making a speech or addressing the people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said no, I cannot say I saw him at any meeting that you are referring to.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that that will indicate that you did not attend any, that you were not in the hostel when those meetings were held.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know sir, I was present at the hostel at the time of the meetings.  The meetings that I had already referred to.

MR STRYDOM: I don't want to ask a question I have already asked, but do you agree with me that Darkie is much younger than Damara and Damara is an induna?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, but I know Damara to be Darkie's elder brother.  It is true, Damara is older than Darkie.

MR STRYDOM: So, you also didn't see Damara at the stadium before the attack, addressing the people, giving instructions or anything of the kind?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did say that I did not see him.  I saw Darkie Chonco at the stadium, at the meeting.

MR STRYDOM: Did Darkie say anything at the stadium before the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was present at the stadium.  The one person that I remember very well, is Gatchene who said "the time that you have been moaning about, has arrived".  The one person who brought firearms along, was Darkie.  He was present at the meeting.

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, did I understand the import of your earlier questions where you said that Damara was the induna, are you saying that, are you putting it to him that Darkie wasn't an induna?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MR LAX: He didn't really answer that aspect.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Lax.  What I am putting to you is that Darkie was just an ordinary resident.  Do you agree with that, that Darkie was not an induna, but he was just an ordinary resident?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Darkie was an induna, I did indicate that I didn't know about Damara Chonco.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Damara, was he also an induna?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember very well, but he was a leader of the IFP.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that Mr Mkhize was arrested on the 30th of June 1992 in connection with the Boipatong incident.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not disputing that, people were arrested.

MR STRYDOM: And I want to take it further, at that stage you were not in the hostel yet?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know sir.  I don't know anything about that, I was at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that you came to the hostel approximately the middle of July 1992?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is a mistake sir.  I arrived at the hostel in 1991.