Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

THERESA BEYERS: We weren't looking for it, it was only we did - came out of the drive, turned left, did a U-turn, we were aware of the bakkie pulling off the road.  If the bakkie hadn't have moved we would have noticed it and it could have been friends of the staff.

MS VAN DER WALT: In your evidence you said that he didn't drive off in a slow way but he actually had quite a bit of speed as he pulled away.

THERESA BEYERS: It wasn't speed but it was fast.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did your husband immediately pursue the bakkie?

THERESA BEYERS: No, not at all, not at all, the bakkie happened to have been going to same way as we did and when we came upon the bakkie - when we drove next to the bakkie on the motor-way, that's when we looked at all the details.

MS VAN DER WALT: So, you weren't giving chase, so it would seem as if the bakkie was also not in any great hurry, it wasn't speeding?

THERESA BEYERS: It wasn't speeding but it was going fast.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you just followed, according to your evidence?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: In a normal manner?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you give a description of the bullet holes that you saw, where exactly were these holes?

THERESA BEYERS: The bullet holes were on the driver's side and no, I can't give you a description of the bullet holes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Pardon me, you can't do what?  You can't give any further description?

THERESA BEYERS: The bullet holes were on the driver's side - I mean, there were bullet holes in the - on the driver's side of the door - bullet holes in the door of the bakkie.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, but where exactly and how many bullet holes and were they all together or were they spread out - you observed these things?

THERESA BEYERS: There were more than one - I don't know how many and - no, I don't know where they were but there were quite a few and the bullet holes were noticed by my daughter and her boyfriend.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you didn't even see it?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes, I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: How do you know that these were bullet holes?

THERESA BEYERS: Because I've seen pictures of cars with bullet holes in them.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, but you didn't stop, you drove past - past the bakkie.

THERESA BEYERS: No, we were - the robot was red, we were parked side by side.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then - according to your evidence, you observed Mr Walus and you then phone the President's home just to inform them?

THERESA BEYERS: Correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you receive any further feedback from the President's staff or guards afterwards?

THERESA BEYERS: No, we didn't.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mrs Beyers, when you saw the photograph of Mr Walus for the first time in the newspaper, why didn't you immediately go to the police?

THERESA BEYERS: I've no idea.

MS VAN DER WALT: Surely it was a very important matter that was being investigated, it received wide media coverage, a lot was written about a so-called greater or bigger conspiracy and to this day you never went to the police to tell them this - according to you, important information, is that correct?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes, it is but I didn't - I don't know, I don't know why I didn't go to the police.

MS VAN DER WALT: Because if it was so important and it was a bakkie with bullet holes in the door and you saw this man who had killed Mr Hani, then surely you could have prevented further problems by going to the police because you were acting as somebody who was protecting the State President?

THERESA BEYERS: I don't know why I didn't - I don't know why I didn't go to the police.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then, why did you come forward now?

THERESA BEYERS: The President spoke to Mr Bizos and Mr Bizos asked me to come through.

MS VAN DER WALT: So the President got in touch with Mr Bizos? - I didn't hear the answer?

THERESA BEYERS: I think that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: So, Mr Mandela, the President, he would also have known from the 12th of July 1992, and the whole cabinet I think or Parliament ought to have known that the Commission was investigating a bigger conspiracy but right up until this minute, no mention is made of your evidence.

THERESA BEYERS: I don't think that is correct at all, it was a while after that Mr Mandela knew and it certainly - I don't think, was a conspiracy thing.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said it was sometimes afterwards, after what that Mr Mandela did something?

THERESA BEYERS: No, I spoke to Mr Mandela a couple of months after Mr Hani had been assassinated, I don't think Mr Mandela would have talked to - you say - I think you said cabinet or whatever, I think he just probably stored it away, I don't know.

MS VAN DER WALT: But Mr Mandela only contacted Mr Bizos now?

THERESA BEYERS: I don't know, I've no idea.

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't know that the witness would know when the President spoke to me Mr Chairman.  If counsel wants me to make a statement as to when the President spoke to me, I'm prepared to make it but I don't think that I should ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think we just suffice because she would obviously say she doesn't know when Mr Mandela spoke to Mr Bizos.

MS VAN DER WALT: What kind of clothing was Mr Walus wearing on that particular day?

THERESA BEYERS: A camouflage top.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what else, was he wearing something on his head, was he trying to conceal his face?

THERESA BEYERS: No, he was driving and as I say, he was talking on what appeared to be a two-way radio.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why do you say: "It appeared as if he was speaking on a two-way radio"?

THERESA BEYERS: Well, if it was today, I would have said he was talking on a cell phone.

MS VAN DER WALT: So, you're not even sure what exactly he was doing?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes, I am, he was talking with something in his hand - he was talking into something in his hand.

MS VAN DER WALT: You're saying: "As if it appeared"?

THERESA BEYERS: It could have been a microphone, it could have been a two-way radio.

MS VAN DER WALT: You aren't even sure?

THERESA BEYERS: I am sure that he was talking on something he was - I am sure, he was holding something in his hand - I am sure and he was talking into something he was holding in his hand.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his hairstyle like at the time?

THERESA BEYERS: It was longer than it is now.

MS VAN DER WALT: Just a moment Chairperson.  Thank you Chair.
	You said that his hair was longer than it is today?

THERESA BEYERS: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: How long, can you estimate for the Committee?

THERESA BEYERS: No, I can't.

MS VAN DER WALT: I beg your pardon, I couldn't hear.

THERESA BEYERS: No, I can't.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you.

THERESA BEYERS: Was there anything else which he was wearing which you could perhaps point out for the Committee's benefit?  You say he was wearing a camouflage top and his hair was longer, was there anything else?

THERESA BEYERS: No, I didn't see anything else.

MS VAN DER WALT: You've thought carefully about this?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes, I have.

MS VAN DER WALT: Because Mr Walus wears glasses, he cannot drive without wearing his spectacles.

THERESA BEYERS: I didn't notice.

MS VAN DER WALT: But I'm putting it to you that that is the case.

THERESA BEYERS: I accept that.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you didn't tell the Commission that he was wearing glasses on that day?

THERESA BEYERS: I didn't see him wearing glasses.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Walus also has always worn his hair as short as it is now and that is also how it appeared on the photograph in the newspaper, he was depicted with short hair as he is now.  I put it to you that Mr Walus has never driven a bakkie with bullet holes in the side and he was most definitely not - on the 12th of July 1992, at Mr Mandela's residence, at a later stage he was there but definitely not on the 12th of July.

THERESA BEYERS: I saw Mr Walus on the 12th of July.