Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ADV SANDI: Mr Mbambo, just a few questions from me.  I gather that before 1994 you had not been involved in any operation, that is before the PAC and APLA first announced that the armed struggle had been suspended, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct.  I never undertook any operations before these that I was involved in.

ADV SANDI: When you heard that the PAC/APLA had suspended the armed struggle, where did you personally stand in relation to that issue?  Did you personally prefer a situation where the armed struggle had continued or did you prefer that the armed struggle had stopped?
	What was your personal preference on that issue?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, I don't want to lie.  I never gave myself a chance to think about it, to think about the suspension of the armed struggle or what is my feeling about the suspension of the armed struggle.  I never had that opportunity.
	I never gave myself that chance.

ADV SANDI: These three gentlemen who were killed because you perceived them to be whites, did you know where they stood in relation to the system which you were opposing?  Did you for example know their political affiliation?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I did not know them sir.

ADV SANDI: Did anyone of you, people like JJ and the gentlemen who were in your unit, did they say they knew where these three gentlemen stood in relation to the apartheid system?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't know sir, but I myself, I did not even know their relationship, I did not know their feeling towards the government of the day.  I did not even know their political affiliation as I was not there when that type of instruction was given to the unit.

ADV SANDI: Maybe lastly, why were they not given a chance to explain who they were before they were killed or even the congregation for that matter, to be given an opportunity to explain who these people are?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't know why were they not given a chance, but I think as far as I am concerned, I think that maybe those soldiers who were sent there, on that mission, at the Bahai Church, they were told, maybe they were told that they have to take anything that they can be able to take, and kill all the white people who were there and leave the scene.
	I think that could be the reason that they did not give them a chance to explain who they were and tell them about their political affiliation here in South Africa.
	Besides that sir, I think even if the people in the Bahai Church, like this other old lady who said, who told us that they were not white people, they were not originally from South Africa, I don't believe that even if we heard that, I don't believe that that would stop us from doing what we were instructed to do, what the people were instructed to do because the people were instructed to do this and that, they were not instructed to go there and check and see what type of white people were there and where do they actually come from and to what political organisation did they belong to.
	They were not sent to do that.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mbambo, before I ask you my very last question, I will ask that when you answer questions, you do not give long winded answers.  You simply answer the question as you understood it.
	Would I be wrong to think that you were aware at that time, that there were people from other groups, from other racial groups, who were opposed to the system you were fighting?  Were you not aware for example that there were white people in this country, I am not talking about the numbers, there were white people in this country, who were opposed to apartheid?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I know sir.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mbambo.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  You have told us that you, yourself, until the time you started just before the Bahai mission, you were not in any way operational at that stage.  You didn't have a unit, you didn't have a Commander, correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I did not say that I did not have a Commander, I said I did not have a unit that I was involved in.  There were no operations that I was ever involved in.

MR LAX: My colleague put a question to you, you didn't have a Commander and your answer to that was yes, you didn't have a Commander.  Maybe you can clarify it now, but that was the answer you gave at that time.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Maybe it was a mistake or maybe I didn't get the question clearly.

MR LAX: Who was your Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: My Commander was Mr Ncapayi.

MR LAX: And where was he based?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: He was based in Bizana.

MR LAX: So how was it that you suddenly acquired a new Commander in Jimmy Jones?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It is because as I was helping his comrades, who were under his command, he requested those comrades to bring me along.  That is where I started to belong to a unit.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely you were obliged to take orders from your proper Commander, how can this man suddenly come and take you along?  You had a Commander you have told us now?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason sir, as I told you before, when I was in Bizana my Commander would be Mr Ncapayi.  Comrade Jimmy Jones would come and ask me to keep soldiers for him, and the soldiers would leave again.
	Now and then he told the other comrades to call me to Transkei, he said I must come to Transkei.

MR LAX: You left Bizana in 1991, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR LAX: And from 1991 till 1994, what contact did you have with your Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As from 1991, up to 1994 there was no communication between me and my Commander.

MR LAX: Why didn't you then, before going along with these people, make an effort to contact your Commander, to make sure that it was proper for you to join this other unit?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason for that, for me not communicating with my Commander, I knew that he died.  He had died.

MR LAX: Well, if he had died, how could you have a Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You said I didn't have a Commander.  I told you that I had a Commander.  You didn't ask me that in 1994, why did I allow the situation that I have another Commander while my Commander was still alive, you didn't ask me that.
	Because if you had asked me that question, I would tell you the reason that for me to have another Commander, it is because my Commander had passed away.

MR LAX: I did ask you how was it that you suddenly went and became a member of another unit, you didn't say.  Did your first unit disband when the Commander died?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: What unit are you referring to sir, because I told you about the unit.  At first I told you that I never belonged to a unit and when you were asking me and said that I told the Commission that I didn't have a unit, and I was never involved in operations previously, I told you that I never had a unit.  I was never involved in any operations, but I had a Commander.
	There is no unit that ever disbanded after the Commander had passed away.

MR LAX: Mr Mbambo, why aren't you volunteering this information to us.  I say did you have a Commander at Bizana, who was your Commander.  You don't say to me it was Mr so and so, but he died.  You then use it as an excuse for why you didn't answer the question properly in the first place.
	You are supposed to be telling us the truth here, you are supposed to be helping us to get information, instead I've got to try and pull it out like pulling teeth out of your mouth.  This is not how you help us.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason for me not telling you about my Commander that he had passed away, I was told by the gentleman next to you, that if I am being asked a question, I must just answer a question directly.  I must not take, I must not say a lot of things.  That is why I said I did not have a Commander and I did not go on to say he had passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: If you had answered the question directly, you would have said I had a Commander but he died.