Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-14

UNKNOWN: And was that in the front - did you enter the bar from the front entrance?

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There was a front door with windows at the side.

ADV SANDI: I'm listening to both Xhosa and English.  There seems to have been a misunderstanding between the witness and the interpreter.  I think he said at some point: "I did not see any people there" and the interpretation was: "I did not see any black people there".  Maybe you can clarify that with him, what exactly did he say?

UNKNOWN: I think the question was, did he see any black employees of the hotel and he answered that he didn't.
	Is that correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I did not see any workers, I did not identify anyone as a worker or whether they were there to drink.  There was no-one outside the premises, we just focused at the bar.

ADV SANDI: Did you see any people at all there?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: When exactly?

ADV SANDI: Did you see any human being there, whether black or white?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that he and Mlungisi both shot to where there were people.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct, we did not identify any colour, we just saw people.

MS GCABASHE: Sorry, because again abantu can mean strictly black people, umululagenu munt(?), we say that sometimes or abantu could be as you say human beings, that's the only distinction Mr Sandi is trying to draw because we understand the Xhosa meaning of umuntu(?).  That is the only bit of clarification that I can appreciate him asking and I was wondering as well, thanks.  If you can just help us on that one, mauti abantu ...[indistinct].  Do you mean ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: It's fine Advocate Gcabashe, you don't have to wait for the interpretation, just carry on speaking.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The reason why I said that there were people is because there was a noise.  There were people playing darts.  The people that were there were white, I did not see any black workers.

UNKNOWN: In paragraph 14 of your affidavit you said
"I entered the door of the pub, Nxeba went to the rear door of the hotel and Mlungisi was at the window"
Is that so?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Paragraph?

UNKNOWN: 14 of your affidavit.  I want to know from you, did Mlungisi, that is your co-applicant, did he shoot from outside the premises, shooting into the premises through the window?  Is that what you're saying there?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And when Nxeba went to the rear of the hotel, did you know whether he shot at all or you unaware or can't you say that, whether he shot?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't think that he shot because according to the report that he gave - I'm not sure whether his gun jammed or not, I don't know, however he did not shoot because we put him there so that if there are people escaping from the back then he would attack.

UNKNOWN: You see why I ask you that, are you saying he never made a report that the gun jammed?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know because you said that his gun jammed in an operation area in a danger zone, that's a bit confusing, it's the first time I hear of that.

UNKNOWN: Did he tell you that or didn't he tell you that?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, maybe we can just help the witness here.  We don't know exactly whose gun jammed at this point in time ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: I'm coming to that Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: So let's not put it to him on the basis that someone's gun jammed, did anyone report that their gun jammed during the operation?
	Let's clarify that first and then we'll take it to the next step.

UNKNOWN: I'm putting it to him specifically whether Nxeba's told him because we know the other one stood at the window.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: Yes, Nxeba.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Maybe I'll just cut to the chase, page 43, the statement of Mr Clyde Conway Shorts who was the assistant manager ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just before you do Mr Prior, let him just answer the question we put to him.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Did anyone's gun jam as far as you are aware? As the commander of the operation, did anyone report to you that their gun jammed during the operation, yes or not?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There was never a report that the gun jammed in the danger zone, however after the operation, after we'd left then it was discovered that a gun had jammed but not during the operation, ...[indistinct] withdrawal.

MR LAX: Whose gun jammed?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the
answer?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The report concerning the jamming of the gun was not such that the gun jammed during the operation, the comrade reported afterwards, after we'd already dropped off the car, that his gun has jammed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Comrade Nxeba.

UNKNOWN: He was the one that went to the rear of the hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct.

UNKNOWN: When you started shooting in the bar area, did they lights go off in the hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I wouldn't know, I didn't notice anything about lights.

UNKNOWN: I've had sight - I haven't put up the documents, but I've had sight of the electrical report that the mains were struck, the cable was struck that ran in the bar and that's when the lights went out plunging the hotel in darkness.  So you say you have no recollection of the lights going out?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I did not notice such.

UNKNOWN: I just want to put to you what Mr Short said in a statement that he made on the early morning after the attack at page 43, 44 Mr Chairman.  In paragraph 2 at the top of the page he said he saw this gunman and he thought that this person had an AK47 automatic rifle.  At the top of the page, page 44 he said
" As he appeared from out of the kitchen I saw that he cocked the weapon.  He pointed the weapon at me and pulled the trigger.  I then hear the weapon make a clicking sound but no shot was discharged.  I then put my hands in the air and asked him if he wanted money.  He kept trying to cock the gun and kept saying: stand still.  At this stage I heard gun shots ring out and the premises were plunged in darkness.  I heard a number of shots ring out from the bar area"

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What is your question Sir?

UNKNOWN: From the account of Mr Shorts who had confronted, and I would presume to have been Nxeba in the rear portion of the premises away from the bar, that Nxeba tried to shoot him but the gun jammed at that stage.  Was that not reported to you?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That was not reported to me.

UNKNOWN: What I'm also putting to you is that the person that entered through the rear portion of the hotel told the black employees to keep quiet or to keep still, in other words that he didn't seem to be interested in them.  Are you able to comment

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That does not really make sense because Nxeba did not go inside and just leave the black people.  I did not get such a report as a unit commander because Nxeba was meant to have divulged such information.  Whether it happened or not I would not know, I did not get such a report.

UNKNOWN: Where's Nxeba today, have you seen him since the operation?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know.

UNKNOWN: And after your operation you disbanded, you never saw him again?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The last time we saw each other was when we went to Cape Town, that was the last time I saw him.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, you went to Cape Town on several occasions, was that during your operations or was that when you went as part of the amnesty process, which?  Was Nxeba part of your Cape Town ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: During the time of the operation Sir.

UNKNOWN: Was Nxeba part of your unit in Cape Town?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct.