Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Now, I know that is a bad copy, but are you sure that it is not your handwriting that has noted down those particulars?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.  I don't write like this.

MR VALLY: Well, I want to move on, but I just want to quote to you what you said on the programme.  I am sorry, I wasn't expecting this Archbishop.
 When you were asked this question by Mr Fred Bridgeland during the TV interview recently, by BBC, do you recall that programme?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I heard about it, but I didn't see that programme.

MR VALLY: Do you recall being interviewed?

ALBERTINA SISULU: There were so many interviews and so many different names that have interviewed me, I don't remember this name.

MR VALLY: Well, I will briefly read it to you.   Fred:  On the question of cards, can I show you a card from the surgery AS, that would stand for yourself.  He goes on, is that your writing on the top there, that is my handwriting.  And is that Dr Asvat's writing?  Yes, that is his handwriting.  And that date there, is that the date you would have stamped in it, was that part of your job?  Yes, I was.  Fred goes on to stamp, you go on, yes, when we I used to do, when we admitted, I gave the name of the patient, the date here and then stamp the card for the date.  I never wrote the history of the patient.  He is saying his own history.
 What I was doing, is just to dispense a card and stamp.  I put the stamp.    But would that date there as you have stamped it, would that be correct?  I should think so, because I wouldn't put any other date, if it is not the right date.  You would query it or correct it?  So you are certain that is the correct date?  That was the correct date, that was stamped there on that date, not unless this is a duplicate or a different card altogether.
 Are you saying this is not your handwriting, or are you saying you are not sure?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I usually don't print when I write.  That is why I, even that 20 years really, is not my writing.

MR VALLY: Have you seen Katiza Cebekhulu ever?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.

MR VALLY: I would like to at some point show you a photograph of Katiza Cebekhulu, we did have one somewhere but I will try to get it for you.
 Do you recall Mrs Madikizela-Mandela coming to the surgery with anyone in late December 1988?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I was always in my admission room, I wouldn't know who brings whom where, because they remain in the reception room and call them next, so I don't know who is accompanying whom.

MR VALLY: Would they pass you, any patient coming to the surgery?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Oh, yes, that is why I have to admit them before they go to the Doctor.

MR VALLY: So you would know if Mrs Madikizela-Mandela went passed you?

ALBERTINA SISULU: It could not have been because my surgery was right at the back of the building.  The reception room was just in front.

MR VALLY: What I am trying to get from you, Mama, is this that any person who came to see Dr Asvat, whilst you were on duty, would have to go via you?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Anybody who is going to the examining room, I would see that person.

MR VALLY: And was Dr Asvat located in a place where people could bypass you and not go via you to see him?

ALBERTINA SISULU: They don't go via me, but my door of the backroom, opens to the reception room.  So I could see anybody going through, if I am not busy.

MR VALLY: Fair enough.  Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela come there towards the end of December, 1988 I am talking about I am sorry?

ALBERTINA SISULU: It would have been, you know, not correct for Mrs Mandela when she is there, to see me, because we were both banned and we were not allowed to speak to each other.  So when Mrs Mandela is there, I don't see her.

MR VALLY: Fair enough, but do you say you see her figuratively, I don't see her literally?  Surely you would know if she passed you?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No, she didn't.

MR VALLY: Right, I want to show you a photograph.  Do you recognise this young man at all?

ALBERTINA SISULU: When he was here, I saw this in the paper.  This is what I saw in the paper.

MR VALLY: Did you ever see him?

ALBERTINA SISULU: But otherwise I wouldn't have recognised him.

MR VALLY: Did you see him at the surgery?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.

MR VALLY: Let's move on.  Are you aware of Dr Asvat having gone to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house and examining anyone there?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Dr Asvat wouldn't tell me that.

MR VALLY: I want to show you another medical record.  Now this medical record, the patient details are not in your handwriting.

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: It indicates a first visit, I believe that was on the 26th of January 1989 and then there is a second visit on the 27th of January 1989, where I believe amongst other things, the weight of the patient is taken?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you recognise your handwriting there?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, there is Sisulu.

MR VALLY: This is your handwriting?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you see the name on the top of the card?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Jerry Richardson.

MR VALLY: Do you recall his visit?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.

MR VALLY: You don't recall Mr Jerry Richardson's visit there at all?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.

MR VALLY: Do you know of Mr Jerry Richardson, have you ever heard of him?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I heard of him when I see in the papers.

MR VALLY: At the time, 1988, 1989, did you know of him then?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.

MR VALLY: Let's go on, on the chronology of events I have given you, the 27th of January 1989.  Are you aware of any argument on the day that Dr Asvat was killed, between Dr Asvat and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in the surgery?

ALBERTINA SISULU: If Mrs Mandela had gone to see Dr Asvat, she wouldn't go to my admission room, because that is where I was always.

MR VALLY: But did you hear any arguments take place in Dr Asvat's surgery on that day before he was murdered?

ALBERTINA SISULU: If it was in his consulting room, I wouldn't hear a word because my room was right at the back.

MR VALLY: Let's go on further.  I want to ask you some general questions, Mrs Sisulu.  You were aware of the reputation that the young mainly men who used to live at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house had for criminal activities?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I heard about that.

MR VALLY: What sort of criminal activity had you heard about them engaging in?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, to be honest, I must say except when people come to me for instance complaining about the Football Club, I don't know any other except when there were cases now, that were in court of those who were killed.

MR VALLY: Did people come to you as a respected community leader and I am talking about the period 1988/1989, did people come to you often about complaints?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: What sort of complaints did they come to you about?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Complaints of their children being harassed by the Football Club, some of them assaulted and those I used to refer them to the police although some of them to the legal people.

MR VALLY: Did you ever get visited by  Dudu Chili with complaints?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, when her house was burnt down.

MR VALLY: Did she ever come to you before that with complaints?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, we used to work together with her.  She came that day to complain about this.

MR VALLY: Did you ever try and rescue boys who wanted to leave the Football Club and assist them in hiding in alternative accommodation?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No.