Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

MR BERGER: So then, please, if we can just get finality on this.  Every resident of Boipatong, it didn't matter how old or how young the resident was, was a target of the attack?

JACK MBELE: According to me, my targets were the comrades and these women that I've referred to.  The children, no.  Even if I came across a child I would not touch that child, I would not even allow those who were in my company to touch the child.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, I'm sorry I don't understand.  Are you saying that men and women older than 38 you would not have killed?

JACK MBELE: Let me put it this way, Mr Berger, you can distinguish between an old woman and a middle aged woman, even if it's at night but there are women who you could see that they are still fresh because they could run faster, those are the kinds of women I would be looking for.

MR BERGER: So old women and middle aged women you would not be looking for?

JACK MBELE: I would not dare do that.  I personally concluded from the hostel that I know who am I looking for, I know who am I going to attack.  I grew up in the township and I know who are responsible in the township for these acts.

MR BERGER: You see, I want to put it to you that these distinctions that you draw now were not distinctions that were drawn at the time by you or by any other of your attackers, your co-attackers and that in reality what was decided was we are going to attack Boipatong, it doesn't matter how old or how young as long as the person is a resident of Boipatong, we are going to kill that person.  Isn't that what was decided?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, you're making a mistake.

MR BERGER: So when Mr Victor Mthembu says so, he's making a mistake as well?

JACK MBELE: I don't want to involve myself in Victor Mthembu's issues.  That's how he responded to the question.  When we left for Boipatong each individual knew what he was going to do.  We were a group of 300 people and it doesn't mean all of us went into houses and committed certain acts.  There are people who went into the houses, there are people who just walked without doing anything, there are people who walked through the streets of Boipatong with there sticks having not used them.

MR BERGER: So are you saying that it was left up to individuals, or that the only instruction you got was we are now going to attack Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: We were told that we were going to attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Nothing more was said about who you were going to attack?

JACK MBELE: We were attacking Boipatong, the self defence units, that was discussed.

MR BERGER: Who said that you were going to attack the self defence units.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, the Committee is fully aware of the picture.  If you could get onto another point now?

MR BERGER: I'm sorry, I'll do that.
	You were accused of being a member of a hit squad, is that correct?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How many hit squads were operating from kwaMadala Hostel?

JACK MBELE: I do not know of any hit squad in kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: You also do not know about the men from Umsinga, is that correct?

JACK MBELE: I know three people from Umsinga.

MR BERGER: I'm talking about the contingent that was under the command of Damarra Chonco, forty or fifty men?

JACK MBELE: I'm saying to you Mr Berger, I only knew three of the Umsinga people.  Three people I know of.

MR BERGER: Did you know of a contingent, about the existence of a contingent of ...[intervention]

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, I think you've already dealt with this point yesterday.  It is on record that he said he didn't know anything about the contingent.  I'm not trying to come into your way but I mean we're going over what we've already gone before.

MR BERGER: Finally, Mr Mbele, what political objective of the IFP did you think you were furthering when you launched the attack on Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: I respond briefly to that question.  When I went to Boipatong I was not furthering anything for the organisation ...[inaudible] for myself because I was living under unbearable conditions because of the organisation.

MR BERGER: Thank you.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: What organisation are you referring to?

JACK MBELE: IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: Nothing further, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, just a few questions.
	Mr Mbele, you say you were present when Bongani Mbata was attacked in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: At that time did you and Mr Tshabangu, your co-applicant, know each other?

JACK MBELE: Yes, we knew each other.

MR MALINDI: And if you were present during that incident he would have mentioned that you were present?

JACK MBELE: I do not know why he did not mention that I was present but I was there.

MR MALINDI: Well I speak under correction but as far as I remember when he mentioned the people who were present during that incident, he didn't mention you.  Is that how you remember his evidence as you were also present here?

JACK MBELE: I do not remember whether he mentioned my name or not.

MR MALINDI: The reason that you moved into kwaMadala is not because you yourself were persecuted because of your Zuluness, is it not so?

JACK MBELE: That is not so.

MR MALINDI: From the day you signed your affidavit which appears on page 129 was it the first time that you went through it again until yesterday?

JACK MBELE: I went through the affidavit before I got into the house.

MR MALINDI: How many days before you testified?

JACK MBELE: Yesterday when I was to take the witness stand I took an affidavit and I reminded myself of it's contents.

MR MALINDI: So you were reading it for the first time since the date on which you signed it?

JACK MBELE: The affidavit was read to me on that day and I signed it.  They left and yesterday before I took the witness stand I read it again.

MR MALINDI: I just need one clarity on another question.  You were asked if you saw Matanzima or Andries Nosenga on the day on the 17th June '92 and your answer was no.  I just want to make sure whether you meant you did not see him at all on this day or whether you just meant you didn't see him when Boipatong was being attacked?

JACK MBELE: I knew Matanzima before he was convicted and I knew him from a distance.  I came to know him close when he was convicted for a sentence for 16 years that's when he came close to me and then we could talk to each other.  But then, I would not say he was there, he was not there.  What I'm trying to say to you is I did not see him at all.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, just a few points.
	Mr Mbele, at the time you were residing at kwaMadala were you employed?

JACK MBELE: I was not employed.

MR PRIOR: How long had you been unemployed?

JACK MBELE: Even now I am not working.

MR PRIOR: I'm not talking about now, prior to the Boipatong Massacre, how long had you been unemployed?

JACK MBELE: Since I left school I have never worked.

MR PRIOR: Now the firearm that Makuka gave to you, was that the first time you'd handled a firearm?

JACK MBELE: It wasn't.

MR PRIOR: Were you familiar with the use of the 9 mm handgun?

JACK MBELE: I knew how a firearm was used.

MR PRIOR: Had you in fact fired a 9 mm handgun before the Boipatong Massacre?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Was there anyone in the hostel that you knew was also called Dondo.

JACK MBELE: I am Dondo, the only Dondo.

MR PRIOR: And Rubin?

JACK MBELE: Yes there's a Rubin I knew.

MR PRIOR: The question is was there more than one Rubin because we know the Rubin that you knew is Rubin Magubane, your co-applicant?

JACK MBELE: Yes, that is the Rubin I knew.

MR PRIOR: Is that the only Rubin you knew?