Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-02

ADV MOTATA: No, I mean the actual people you found at reception.

MR SAPELE: There were about 40 people at the reception.

ADV MOTATA: I don't follow.  Which are now the 40 people, I don't follow.

MR SAPELE: Could you please repeat your question?

ADV MOTATA: What I'm asking you is that you had to via reception, to get the keys and money, did I understand you correctly?

MR SAPELE: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Now I say the personnel of the prison who were guarding the reception, how many people were there?  That is the people you robbed the money from.

MR SAPELE: There were two.

ADV MOTATA: Did you open the safe yourselves or did you ask them to open the safe?

MR SAPELE: I apprehended the white policeman and ordered him to open up the safe.

ADV MOTATA: After he had done so, did you actually take the money or part of the 19 took the money?  Did you participate in taking the money?

MR SAPELE: I took the money, the others also did, that is the rest of the group.

ADV MOTATA: Assist us, Mr Sapele, I see you are 19, it's quite a crown, 19, and the reception is two people, you all 19 of you or some of you or how many went to the safe, because you had apprehended this white person?  Did you all go to the safe or approximately how many people went for the safe?

MR SAPELE: I think at the safe there were about six of us.

ADV MOTATA: The impression I got - please correct me, I just want clarity, is that you were apprehended, that is arrested not very long after and you gave an indication of four hours, where precisely were you people arrested?

MR SAPELE: At the cemetery, just next to the prison quarters.

ADV MOTATA: And how far is this cemetery from the prison?

MR SAPELE: ...[no English translation]

ADV MOTATA: Yes, Sir.

MR SAPELE: Quite near, actually very near the prison.

ADV MOTATA: Let's take it step by step, you access your way out of prison, were you immediately followed or what was the situation?

MR SAPELE: We escaped and we came across two policemen who ran away.  We proceeded into the graveyard and we were arrested whilst we were seeking refuge in a tree inside the cemetery or the graveyard.

ADV MOTATA: Your getting out of the prison towards this graveyard which isn't far from the quarters, the time lapse was four hours.  Just for that because you are giving an indication that this is very near.

MR SAPELE: Yes.  There is grass at the graveyard.  We hid ourselves in the grass and Boris climbed on top of the tree and it was raining.  I think they realised later that we had escaped or we were at the graveyard.

ADV MOTATA: I don't just follow there because my question is the time spell and you had mentioned that there were police at the gate and you had to run, the impression I get that it was noticed immediately that you people were escaping, would I be correct in understanding you so?

MR SAPELE: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: So it wouldn't be that they realised later that you had escaped?

MR SAPELE: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Motata.
	Were these other persons who escaped members of a gang, prison gang called the "Royal Airforce"?

MR SAPELE: I think there were some who were members of the gang.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of the Royal Airforce gang?

MR SAPELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you apprehended the white, you call him a policeman but I think he was a warder, and you had the knife, did you stab him?

MR SAPELE: No, I just scared him off with the knife that he should open the safe but I never tampered with him in any other way or injured him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how he got injured?

MR SAPELE: He never got injured because he was present at the parade and he pointed me out, he identified me as the person who had scared him with a knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say that one - you said earlier that one of the warders got killed and another one got injured, is that correct?

MR SAPELE: Yes, the one who died died at the cells, he did not die at the reception area.

CHAIRPERSON: What caused him to die, how did he get injured?  Was he shot, stabbed, beaten to death?

MR SAPELE: We assaulted him.  I think he was also killed by shock.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally assault him?

MR SAPELE: I just took the keys from him.  Yes, I did assault him.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you assault him?

MR SAPELE: I hit him with the fist.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what that warder's name was?

MR SAPELE: I forgotten his name but I would know him, I think it's Sergeant Mwasheni.

CHAIRPERSON: The other warder that got injured in the reception, how did he get injured?

MR SAPELE: He was kicked and assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you kick and assault him at all?

MR SAPELE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do to him?

MR SAPELE: I did all.  I assaulted him, I kicked him.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you assault him?

MR SAPELE: I kicked and I also assaulted him with fists because he was refusing with the keys.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that warder's name, Mr Selebalo?

MR SAPELE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in here?
	Mr Sapele, you said you had a knife with you, how could you have assaulted him with your fists if you had knife?  I don't understand that.

MR SAPELE: There were two people at the reception, the one who had the keys just handed the keys over to me after I had hit him with a fist, and Sergeant Steenkamp seemed to be the one who was stubborn, so I took up the knife and directed him to open up the safe and he complied.

ADV BOSMAN: So the first one you threatened with a knife and the second one you just assaulted?

MR SAPELE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of the questions that have been put by members of the Panel?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sapele, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED