Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-19

NONTOBEKO DULI: Yes, that is correct.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am going to ask you now about how your husband came back to the Transkei after going to Aliwal North.  Firstly, I would like to ask you when he was in Aliwal North, who was he staying with?

NONTOBEKO DULI: Like I have said before, my husband was a real traditional Xhosa man.  He didn't discuss most of his things with his wife.  He didn't stay too long in Aliwal-North.  We only left him in Aliwal North. He met William Mbotoli and
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they left together. The time that I would meet them was at East London.  That's where the two of us used to meet.  In East London he used to stay with Mbotoli.  I used to meet him alone. I don't really know where he used to stay.  We used to meet at a hotel.  Only when he had called me.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Which hotel was this?

NONTOBEKO DULI: I think it was Osner.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Can you also tell the occasions that you met him, after he left in 1990 and then he came back and then he went to Aliwal North. How many times did you meet him?

NONTOBEKO DULI: Maybe once a month or so.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Could you just tell us, how frequently you used to meet him.

NONTOBEKO DULI: We used to meet approximately three times a month.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And this whole time did you used to meet him with Mbotoli?

NONTOBEKO DULI: At the times that I used to meet him, he would be alone and there would be another one, another young man that he used to call Nfiso, but he was never with Mbotoli.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But he did say to you that he was staying with Mbotoli?

NONTOBEKO DULI: No, but I am not sure that he was there with Mbotoli, but I know that he used to spend a lot of his time with Mbotoli.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: According to what your husband said, seeing that you didn't meet quite a lot and he didn't say much of what he was doing to you, as Xhosa traditional men, didn't you ever ask him why he was staying away from home and what he was doing away from home?
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NONTOBEKO DULI: I only used to ask him why, when is hecoming back, because the kind of life that he was leading was not healthy.  He used to tell me that no, he would be coming back, he is still trying to fix some things and he is still trying to negotiate with the soldiers, but he doesn't want to go back to jail as he had before.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Dobsi.  Now Madiba, I just want to ask you one question. You mentioned somebody called Davis.  Would you please tell us who is Davis?

MR VHANA: Boetie Davis was a builder.  He is stationed at Machau at (indistinct).  He used to be a South African Defence Force soldier.  But he was stationed at Machau.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Sorry, there was just one last question. How did you meet Davis?

MR VHANA: Machau and Kamangu are next to each other, this is how we knew each other.  But now he came to me when I was with Craig Duli, the time we were in Queenstown, that's how I met him.  He then lived with the two of us, that is myself and Craig Duli at Kulimkana.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much for that explanation.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntsiki Sandi?

UNKNOWN: My first question is directed to Mrs Duli.  Mrs Duli, you said at the beginning, among the other things that happened, Maj-Genl Holomisa was arrested. He was arrested by the Selous Scouts. Could you please tell the Commission in short, according to your knowledge or according how you heard these things from your husband, what was the role of the Selous Scouts in the Transkei?

NONTOBEKO DULI: Honestly, I don't know what is the role of the Selous Scouts in the Transkei, except the fact that they
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were in high positions in the Army at the time.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps let me rephrase my questions.  Who were the Selous Scouts, where were they from?

NONTOBEKO DULI: According to my knowledge, the Selous Scouts were soldiers from Rhodesia.  One of them was Ray Daley and others.

UNKNOWN: If I can go to another question. You said another day at home you found some documents.  Documents have reasons. Did the documents have reasons why the soldiers wanted to take over the government.  Did you tell your husband that you had found these documents at home, also telling him what was the content of the documents?  And if you did, what did he say?  Thank you.

NONTOBEKO DULI: I found this document among my husband's clothes already after his death.

UNKNOWN: Do you still have other documents that you found at home?  Documents pertaining to the conditions in the Transkei at the time?

NONTOBEKO DULI: Yes, there are other documents that I found among my husband's belongings.

UNKNOWN: When you say amongst your request that you want the Commission to please investigate everything about this matter, are you ready to give over those documents to the investigating committee so that it can be investigated?

NONTOBEKO DULI: Yes, I am ready to give over the documents.

UNKNOWN: You said your husband has been away from home for quite a while, because his life was in danger.  During the times when you used to live with him in Aliwal North, did you say it was Aliwal North?

NONTOBEKO DULI: And East London.

UNKNOWN: Did he tell you how his life was at the time or UMTATA HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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did you ever ask him how he was living at the time while he was in exile, if I can use that word?

NONTOBEKO DULI: He would only touch a little on this. He once told me that there was an attack at Stutterheim, they were attacked.  He was also telling me that there were people hunting him, they were trying to bring him back by force to the Transkei.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mrs Duli, for answering this question.  I only have one or two questions for Mr Vhana.  At the beginning Mr Vhana you said that you are not a soldier and you are not trained by the military force. Is that so, Mr Vhana?

MR VHANA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

UNKNOWN: You said on this 22nd day of November 1990, you went to the Botha Sigcau building, it was yourself, Mr Davis and Mr Duli.  You had the intentions of taking over the government from the military council of the Transkei.

MR VHANA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

UNKNOWN: In short, could you please tell us were there any arrangements made before you entered the Bordersdal building with the intentions of taking over the government? Surely, Mr Vhana you know this clearly, but taking over a government, especially a military government, is no easy task.  Could you please tell the Commission if there were any preparations that you personally were involved in when they were trying to plan this step of the 22nd of November?

MR VHANA: Yes, Sir, that is correct.  This coup of the military government was planned by the Transkeian soldiers. One of them was Titzi Mantanzima, Col Mkwebe, Col Zwahiba, Col Begebu, Capt Sofotyi and Capt Molelekaba and Col Bikibo, that I nearly forgot.  Begebu, Mantanzima, Mwekbe, Zwahiba,
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uli, Sofotyi and Umkalali, the last one is Xaba.

UNKNOWN: Among other things that were published in the newspapers, there is another factor has been coming up. It is that the government that was in power at the time, also took part in this coup.  Do you have anything to say about that?  That involvement of the South African government?