Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MODISE MOLEFE: I remained in the indent. My colleague Veli Llale had to go to other opposite direction. I remained there. And I do not want to speak on behalf of Veli Llale he fired back thinking, I do not want to speak on behalf of him. Thinking it was something very quick. Our security personnel are under attack, under seize down there. And then his purpose of firing to the marchers.

MS MORAKA: Maybe I should stop you Mr Molefe. I would imagine what the Committee, I know that the Committee is only interested in what you know you saw and can I refer you to your supplementary affidavit at paragraph 7 on page 65d. We are talking about the shot that you fired. No perhaps we should go to paragraph 5 on C. You state there in particular
"It has been pointed out to me that two shots from an AK are likely to have been fired from the parapet of Shell House into the pharmacy on the corner of King George and de Villiers Street."
Do you - and you have stated earlier on in your subsequent affidavit this is what you were informed by your legal representatives. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: Is it also correct that at the inquest hearing you were also asked about this and you refuted the ballistic evidence?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: Do you want to explain? You say you accept the ballistic evidence?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: You have stated that you fired into the air?

MODISE MOLEFE: I stated that I fired in the air. The verdict has been put upon me which I absolutely agree with it that two of my shots went to the direction of the pharmacy which is opposite of Shell House. And I do not dispute that and when I was asked that question by the advocate who was representing the police I totally disbelieved him. And when my legal representative came with an evidence in black and white that two of my shots went to the direction of the pharmacy I had to accept and accept to the effect that if those two shots might have killed one of the deceased or injure one of the deceased. Let alone the fact that there is not a single concrete evidence that is linking my gun with the deceased of the injured I say if he can come up a thousand years, hundred years and maybe more that is injured by that particular gun I am asking amnesty in that regard. And I am saying this in the deep inner recess of my heart. Thank you.

MS MORAKA: Do you have any explanation, if you do not have it you may state so. Why it is that your recollection is of firing into the air but some of your shots hit the pharmacy across and opposite Shell House?

MODISE MOLEFE: His Worship, Justice Nugent says to me I might have lost my feet when I was firing. That is possible.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Molefe I think you must try and listen being posed to you by your counsel. And the question which is being posed is are you able to explain why you state that you fired into the air and relate that to the objective evidence of the ballistic evidence which shows that the AK47 you used struck the window of the pharmacy? The bullet that came from your AK47 struck the window of the pharmacy which is opposite Shell House?

MODISE MOLEFE: Honourable Chairman in my mind I do not recall losing my feet. However maybe the weapon that I had it could have went out of control and those bullets might as they say struck the pharmacy. Might, I might have lost control and which I accept. I do not recall myself firing at the pharmacy but I take and accept the ballistic evidence.

MS MORAKA: Mr Molefe at paragraph 11 on page 65 e you state that your attention has been drawn to the affidavit of Mr van Wyk and in particular that you acted for personal gain or because of personal hatred towards the marchers. And they base this statement on the evidence that you gave before his Honourable Judge Nugent where you spoke about your feelings towards the marchers. Can you explain to this Committee the reasons why you fired on this particular day in question?

MODISE MOLEFE: May you please repeat the question?

MS MORAKA: The question is; can you explain to the Committee the reasons why you fired? What motivated you to fire the AK47 on that day, on the 28th of March 1994?

MODISE MOLEFE: I said I just wanted to repel them. Just to frighten them and to realise that we are armed. They would be frighten and retreat. That we were carrying weapons in that sense and it did not materialise.

MS MORAKA: Do you have any explanation for the statements that you made during the inquest? That you do hate sections of the IFP?

MODISE MOLEFE: Your Honour I grew up in a culture of non-racialism. I grew up in a culture of detribalised society. I mean that is my organisation that I am coming from. I am coming from the organisation which says: "UmZulu UmSotho UmXhosa Tshlanganane." However is the elements within our tribal grouping among the Zulus who tied the red cloth on top of their head and inflict pain and cause injuries, death amongst innocent people naturally I will hate that portion of people. Not entirely the Zulus. It is equally like the Windhoek which were liked by Bongwana in Cape Town committing the blooded murder upon the innocent people. Surely Your Honour such people I will not like them. However I am not a tribal person. I lived with Zulus in the hostel. I played with the Zulus in the hostel. I have got the leadership of Zulus in my organisation. Some of my friends are Zulus. Some of my friends are Xhosas. I am not tribalistic but those who bear white in Cape Town kill innocent people definitely I will hate them. Those who bear red cloth and kill the innocent people definitely I will hate them. And I will continue in that sense. Defend my people in that category.

MS MORAKA: Finally Mr Molefe can you tell the Committee the reasons or the reason why you are applying for amnesty?

MODISE MOLEFE: I am applying amnesty and I believe we exceeded the boundaries of self defence. I apply amnesty armed or not armed people are orphans today, people are widows today and our intention and our philosophies and our policy as the African National Congress we are not the cold-blooded murderers. Even the single blood we regret. We regret to the extent of feeling the pain that they underwent or the people who died, the eight people died in Shell House we regret. And above all we also regret to the whole people who died in Gauteng, Soweto, Meadowlands, whatever. That is the philosophy. We regret the loss of life. We ask amnesty to this Committee and they must understand even if we went to exile and carry out we are not cold-blooded murderers. We want to repel and kill Apartheid machinery. And even those people who attacked Shell House perhaps they were used by those who were trained in Caprivi to come and attack us but we regret to the loss of life.

MS MORAKA: I did say finally Mr Molefe but I am sorry, can I ask you the final question? On page 58 of your application you are asked for justification of your acts and you state that the intention of the IFP was to disrupt the first democratic elections. And I want to ask you for you personally what significance was the election and what significance would the disruption thereof have had for you?

MODISE MOLEFE: If the IFP managed to enter in our building, kill our leadership, destroy our property, destroy the equipment which was there in that building and above all there were senior people of the ANC. Doctor Sisulu was there, Thabo Mbeki was there. I believe that was the strategy of the IFP to plunge this country into chaos and anarchy and that could have caused a total civil war under which would all of us as we are sitting here could have suffered the consequences of that. And I say I was protecting even those in that sense to know including a person like Doctor or Mr Dorfling I know him today. And if those elections did not materialise I would not know in you including Mr Pretorius. Thank you.

MS MORAKA: .