Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-01

MR SIBANYONI: Did you then hold a meeting and decided that you will attack and kill any IFP member known in that area?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: We took a decision that we are going to protect our community against harassment.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes but, protecting them - what I'm interested in is to say, any IFP member would be a target in protecting the enemy, and the action which would be taken would be to kill that IFP member.  Was there such a meeting where the decision was taken?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever go into that house, that day when the deceased was ...(intervention)

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Do you mean the day of Beki's death?  Yes I was present in that office.

CHAIRPERSON: Inside the house?  Not at the door, inside?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: If I'm saying I was at the door you know that my position is that was you could see what's happening.  You look more like a person who is inside because you are able to see everything that is taking place inside the house although you are standing at the door.  I was standing at the door.  I could see Beki.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the furthest you went into that house that day?  Before you took him to the shooting.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: When I went inside it was when I went to fetch the firearm when we were about to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did go in.  Not so?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I went in as I wanted to fetch the firearm, and we took him with.

CHAIRPERSON: So you agree you did enter deep into the house, and not just stood at the door?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I did not spend time, I just got into the house and took the firearm.  Yes I got inside, and I took the firearm, and I left the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the firearm held?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: The firearm was in the dining room.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in the same room as where you saw the deceased from the front door?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it just laying on the floor, or on a chair, or on a table, or was it being held in a cupboard, or a safe, or what is the position?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: It was on the floor.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what rank in the SDU did you hold?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I was just an ordinary SDU member without a rank.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not supposed to - or let me ask you this.  Did you just go fetch that firearm?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I took the firearm at the same time as they were taking him out to the veld that was next to the Nkatije school.

CHAIRPERSON: You went on your own to pick up that firearm?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: That was the firearm that was going to be used.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you did it on your own.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, I took the firearm because it was time to go and kill Beki.

CHAIRPERSON: Who keeps control, or who kept control, over the firearms of that unit, or was everybody able to gain access to these firearms?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Will you please repeat your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Who in the unit had the power of control over all the firearms which the unit used from time to time?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Our commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: How many commanders were there in that unit?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Muchacho was the commander who was present at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not supposed to obtain permission from him to fetch that firearm?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I was not supposed to get permission from him, because I knew what Beki was all about and the other people knew also.  There was no reason for us to wait for a command because we knew him very well.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not asking about a command to kill him.  I'm asking about a command or permission to pick that firearm up, because it was essentially under the control of the only commander there.  Or can anybody have walked in there and just pick up a firearm and do what he wants to with it?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: The firearm was already there to kill him, that is why I'm saying it was on the floor.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your commander an applicant in this matter?

MR SHANE: He is, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you on speaking terms, or have you made attempts to visit, the family of the deceased, since his death?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: That did not occur to us, because Beki was an IFP member.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you, is this senseless war between, or in that area, not over?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: It is over.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm happy to hear that.  Was there no attempt to go make friends, for humanity's sake?  To say how sorry you were that this unfortunate situation had developed?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: That is why I came forward here to apply for amnesty and ask for forgiveness from Beki his family.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you prepared to go to them afterwards, now to say how sorry you are and to see if they will forgive you?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I am willing or prepared, I'm willing to get their forgiveness, but I have no alternative at the time.  If I am to see them I will able, I'm prepared to look at them and ask for forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON: And to become friends?  In the circumstances.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems that that, that fight at the time, was related to possibly the elections that occurred shortly thereafter.  Am I correct?  Maybe there were other reasons, but the elections was also ...(indistinct).

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: What led to that situation, the IFP members were harassing us and they wanted us to join Inkatha and they were assaulting us, that's why they killed Muchacho's parents.

CHAIRPERSON: And that, that was related to electioneering, isnt' it?  Because all the parties involved wanted votes.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I do not understand your question.  What do you mean when you are talking about elections?

CHAIRPERSON: The 1994 elections, was four or five months, four months, after this killing.  And we have done a couple of these matters before.  In my view there was a relationship between that war and the elections.  Do you understand?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, I do understand, because IFP members were  calling us ANC members and they killed a comrade.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we've got another election coming, this year.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, I'm aware of that coming election.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree with me that it wouldn't be a good idea for a war to start again in those circumstances?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, there is no need for war.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you oppose any fighting because of the elections?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Will you please repeat your question, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you oppose any such attempt to cause damage to the people and to create a war, because of the elections?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: All we need now is peace, and vote peacefully and let the winners win.  That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I want to put it to you in this sense, that for all these years some of our people have been used by various institutions, and these people caused various problems for election purposes.  And it is not always our own people's fault that these problems are created.  And that's why I'm asking you, if such attempts to cause fights between our people, irrespective of which party they belong to, would you oppose that? - because nobody benefits by it.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes I'll try and oppose such people who would try and fight because of the forthcoming elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, arising from your questioning, if I might just put two short questions to the applicant.
	Muchacho was your commander, correct?  He was in charge of you.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, he was the commander of Tambo section.

MR SHANE: And his orders you would have obeyed?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, if that was rightfully done.