Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.   We'll take a tea adjournment now, we will return at 11:30.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR TEA

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: (still under oath)

MR BERGER CONTINUES: Mr Mbatha, for the record, I just want to tell you that I was approached by Mrs Phale, P H A L E, during the adjournment and the young girl, aged 15, who died at 625 Bapele Street, the house over the road from the shops, was her daughter, and her name was not Ronica Msebe, as it is in the annexure, her name was Ronica Phale, and she was visiting the Msebes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the page again?

MR BERGER: It's page 11 of the annexure, chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right.

MR BERGER: She was visiting the Msebes on the night of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

MR BERGER: Her name is Ronica Phale.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MR BERGER: P H A L E.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR BERGER: Not Ronica Msebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thanks.

MR BERGER: But she was 15 and she was stabbed right through her body.   The other person that you stabbed - I'm sorry, before I get to that person - when I asked you earlier whether you could name anyone who was with you in the house where you stabbed the female, you said you couldn't, but you say that the house in which you shot, or in which the two males were shot, the two males who were trying to hide in the wardrobe, that was in the same house and Themba Mabota was in that house when you called him, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Then you went to another house, and that was where you saw a person trying to escape, that's the person who tried to hide himself around the Peugeot?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And can you indicate where that house was?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: As I have indicated that I cannot point out, I was just walking, I'm not quite familiar with the area.

MR BERGER: And who were you walking with?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was Themba and the other people, I don't know them quite well.

MR BERGER: The only two people that you saw shooting were Damara Quonquo and Themba Mabota, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Where did you see Damara shooting?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I saw him shooting last shooting at the defence.

MR BERGER: And you never saw anyone else shooting?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: You say that the lighting in Boipatong was bad, it was dark?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was there not a full moon that night?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I do not know, but it was dark.

MR BERGER: Are there not Apollo lights in Boipatong?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was not lit, it was dark.

MR LAX: Mr Berger, just to help us, those Apollo lights, are those those big mast lights that one sees in townships?

MR BERGER: (No audible reply).   After you had tried to kill the man near the Peugeot, you continued searching houses, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the only other house that you found people in was the house where Themba Mabota shot the male and the female under the bed?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And how old were they?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I don't know.

MR BERGER: Why is there no mention of them in your statement, at page 210(I)?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I wouldn't know, maybe I was not asked about them, we may, we could not have continued, or should I say it's possible we didn't continue with the questioning.

MR BERGER: Then did you go into Slovo Park?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I don't know whether I did get there or not.

MR BERGER: Why do you say in your statement
"I was not in Slovo Park",
if you don't know?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I said I don't know whether I did get to Slovo Park or not.   I was just walking, I do not know the place, I think it was in the middle, we were in the middle of the township, so I could not make out my way.

MR BERGER: Did you follow Themba Mabota wherever he was going?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: We parted ways.   We were destroying, we did not stick together all the way through.

MR BERGER: Did you see people looting?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I did see some people in possession of items on our way out.

MR BERGER: Did it surprise you to see them carrying these items?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, it did.

MR BERGER: Did you ask them, "Why are you carrying these things?"

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I did not, I did not even have that chance.

MR BERGER: Afterwards, back at the hostel, did you ask anyone why they had stolen stuff from Boipatong?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: When we arrived, we did not have a chance to talk, we rushed into our homes to sleep.

MR BERGER: Why?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: We knew that we had destroyed, so that even if there are suspicions, we should be asleep.

MR BERGER: Did you enter the hostel through the main gate?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Together with everyone else?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would not know whether some people were left behind, but as far as I know, I think we all went in through the same gate.

MR BERGER: Damara went through the same gate with you, didn't he?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would say so, even though we could not see each other at the time.

MR BERGER: And what did you do with your spear, your assegai?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I came back from work the following day and discovered that the police had confiscated all the spears.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think counsel wants to find out, when you returned to the hostel after the attack, what did you do with your spear?   Is that what - yes, or... (intervention).

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I kept it in my room as usual.

MR BERGER: The next morning, what time did you wake up?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I left quite early, because I had to be at work at six o'clock.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, when you got home to your room, did you wash your spear, did you wash it?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who did you share a room with in the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I was staying with Buthe and others, my brother and others.

MR BERGER: Who were the others?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: They were others, whose name I don't know, it could be Tulu.

MR BERGER: Is that the only name you can remember?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, there were two of them, Tulus.

MR BERGER: How many people were there in your room?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: We could have been five.

MR BERGER: And you all went on the attack?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Who stayed behind?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: My brother, he had gone to work.

MR BERGER: The others went on the attack?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes they did.

MR BERGER: The next morning, what time did you leave the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I used to leave at five o'clock or round about ten to five.

MR BERGER: And you had no difficulty leaving the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I didn't have a problem.

MR BERGER: There was no police presence, no military presence, no Iscor security, around the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I did not see any one of them.

MR BERGER: What time did you return from work?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was in the evening, quite late, it was quite late, because there was no longer public transport to Terela.

MR BERGER: So it would have been in the evening that you returned back to the hostel on Thursday?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, it was not quite late, but I think it was headed for nine o'clock in the evening.

MR BERGER: And then you went back to your room and you went to sleep?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, but then when I arrived, there was a police contingent.

MR BERGER: On the Friday, did you go back to work?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I could not

MR BERGER: Why not?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: They didn't allow us to leave the hostel.

MR BERGER: That was on the Friday?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.