Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I've already mentioned in the past that all these incidents that transpired in 1993, I was arrested for them.  I was there when they discovered the deceased.  The truth and the only truth is, when I apply for amnesty - even though I was there when they were discovering the late or the deceased, I found myself arrested and in custody for 3 months, six months.
	Now the reason why I'm applying for amnesty, even though I'm accused number 1 in this case, I'm coming here to explain my innocence in as far as killing is concerned.   I don't know whether I've answered your question.

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] because you have been charged?

MR MOTATA: May I just ask this before you come in Mr Madasa?
	A member of the Committee has made you aware that in terms of 9(a) 4 you are asking for amnesty for having killed two people with a knopkierrie, are we understanding you to say you never killed anybody?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, it is so.

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Sonti, on page 36, that is separate of C, were  you are asked to state the names of the people, you are saying Mavuso and other, to whom were you referring?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: First of all, as I have already explained, the one person that I know among the deceased is Mavuso for the following reasons: Mavuso was in the first group ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, ...[inaudible] - do we have a spare copy of the application?  Mr Mapoma, do we have an extra copy of the application?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, we don't have an extra copy of the bundle but we do have a bundle of applications where I was trying to look for his own application.
	You are looking at page 34, are you not?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is a document marked 7177/94, Application for Amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Act.  Do you recall that document?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally complete the form?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, that is my handwriting Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] education?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Six.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you pass standard six?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Go to page 39.  Do you see the signature at the foot of that page?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your signature?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you go to page 35 where you are asked, at paragraph 9 sub-paragraph (a), sub-paragraph I, you were asked there to indicate the acts in regard to which you're asking amnesty and you've indicated there that you are asking amnesty in respect of murder, do you see that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] any murder?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any reason why you put in murder there?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, the one reason that I can put forward is that I am the 1st accused in this case.  I was arrested for murder, today I will have a chance to explain my innocence.  I'm sure that my docket would also say that I have murdered.  I don't know if I had applied for amnesty what else would I say after being accused of murder.  I don't know whether I have given you a correct answer.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] for amnesty are persons who have committed an act which amounts to a criminal offence, who consider themselves to be guilty of a criminal offence, do you understand that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] paragraph (Roman 9) well, in paragraph 9(a) (Roman 4) at page 35 you refer to two people who were killed with a knopkierrie.  You didn't hit anyone with a knopkierrie, did you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: At page 36 you are asked to state the names of the victims and in Roman C1 you gave the name of Mavuso and other.  You didn't kill Mavuso, did you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, it is so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were involved in the abduction of the persons who were killed and taking them to a shack?  Were you involved in that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, it is so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when a decision to kill the deceased was taken?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No, I was not present Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left block F to assist with the location of the relatives of Bulelwa and Blanko, you were not aware of what was to happen to the individuals who had been captured?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I did not know Sir.  My aim was to locate Blanko's next of kin and when I got there, there was trouble.

CHAIRPERSON: What was to happen to the deceased, the persons that you had captured?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They were already there Sir, when I left.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not know what - that they were going to be killed?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No, I did not know Sir.  And I had still thought that because Tusanang was not one of those who were put into the shack, he was the one who was going to give information to the public, to the community, about everything that was transpiring.

CHAIRPERSON: To the person who had been captured?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I was thinking, they were still young but their acts were superseding their age.  I thought they were going to be sjamboked or the law would take its course.

CHAIRPERSON: Take its course?  Were they going to be handed to the police?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The police were untrustworthy.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you've just said that the law will take its course, how was the law going to take its course?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I think - as we had reported to the Red Cross, I am thinking that maybe the Red Cross would have consulted with the people who were there at the time or the law that was in operation at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you subsequently learn that the deceased were all taken to the veld and they were killed there? - at some point.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I did Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that surprise you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: It did not surprise me Sir.  That decision that had been taken had already been concluded.

CHAIRPERSON: But as I understand the position, you did not expect that they would be killed?  You thought that because they were fairly young they were going to be sjamboked or as you put it, the law was going to take its course, right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I did think about that but then to think, being ...[indistinct] not knowing what was going to happen, I think is very difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: You learnt that an order had been issued that they be killed?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, it is so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were not surprised because there was an order that they should be killed?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the order surprise you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I was surprised but not to that extent because in everything that I thought, there were many incidents that were carrying in Moleleki Extension 2 resulting from the behaviour of these children of these young ones.
	There's something that I have just left out Sir.  I am not sure whether I can just say it, something that I almost forgot.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: In everything that I am explaining here, that it was something that had been formed in block F.  The reason why I am saying this is because there were youth that were not part of Moleleki Extension 2, they came from other sections.  Their apology that they had made on the 5th of December, that they had an urgent meeting and we would have to wait for them to get back to us.
	I just want to say we were trying to attend to what brought us here today.  I can give you an example ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] do that tomorrow.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Thank you.