Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

CHAIRPERSON: ... most commonly used abode for holiday makers there near the sea?  Why did you discount the possibility that the people you attacked were in fact holiday makers?

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter didn't get the first words of the speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: In that area, would you agree that the holiday makers make full use of the bungalow facilities in the area, not so?

LUNGILE MAZWI: As a person who did not know that place, I can't be so sure that they were using those bungalows.

CHAIRPERSON: In any event, you knew it was holiday time, and festive time, not so?  You said so?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct, in those days.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you discount that the people you eventually attacked, were not holiday makers?
	In other words, how did you know they must be attacked?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Sir, I thought that the people who went there as holiday makers, were the people who had already gone at the time that the people who were left behind at the spot, were the people who were there to actually disturb our movement.  Those were the people that I regarded as enemies, because they were left behind while the other holiday makers were gone.

CHAIRPERSON: On what day did this attack occur?

LUNGILE MAZWI: You mean the attack that we launched?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?  What day of the week was that?

LUNGILE MAZWI: If I am not mistaken, it was on a Tuesday.

CHAIRPERSON: That was the day after Easter Monday?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I think it was just a few days after the Easter Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR SMUTS: And on your way to Port St Johns, you had passed holiday makers in the area?

LUNGILE MAZWI: We were going down, they were going up, using different lanes, opposite lanes.

MR SMUTS: But as we now know, Mr Mazwi, the people that you attacked, were in fact holiday makers, were they not?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I feel very bad about that because we didn't aim to attack the holiday makers.  That was not our aim.

MR SMUTS: Nor did you make any effort whatsoever to avoid attacking holiday makers?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The way we were operating, we were not operating in such a manner that we could be able to contact the holiday makers, therefore we would not be able to protect or make it a point that we don't attack the holiday makers.
	The area was identified, the area that we actually attacked was the area that was identified as being used by the enemy.

MR SMUTS: So was Port St Johns, Mr Mazwi, but you didn't attack in Port St Johns, and there were holiday makers in Port St Johns.

MR SMUTS: According to my knowledge, we did not attack the holiday makers.  I only got that here today, we were just attacking a place that was frequented by our enemy, the place that was used by our enemy, the enemy that was there at the place at that time.

MR SMUTS: Is it your evidence that today is the first time that you have heard that the people that you attacked, were holiday makers?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I am saying that in the context that I am testifying here today that I can say, I can say it is not for the first time that I hear that here today, but I take it as if I am getting that for the first time because I am telling the truth here for the first time.
	Therefore I admit that the people who were there at that place, were holiday makers.  It is not that I am actually getting this type of information for the very first time in my life.

MR SMUTS: No.  In fact on the morning when you arrived on the coast in question, you sent a party out, is that correct, to reconnoitre the area where these bungalows were?  Is that right?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: And the party that you had sent out, came back and reported that they had found an old lady and a girl who were whites, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The comrades that were sent there, they came back and told us that they had met a servant or a worker or a person who was working there.  They did not say anything about an elderly woman and a girl, a white girl.

MR SMUTS: May I take you to the judgement in your criminal trial.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they tell you what the servant said, who was staying there?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Though I cannot remember well, the exact words, but they told us that they met with a person who was actually working at the place.

MR SMUTS: What was the purpose of sending that party out?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Firstly, most of us were not familiar with the place, the relief, the geographic area and what was actually happening in the place, that is why we decided to send some comrades to reconnoitre the place.

MR SMUTS: So the intention was for them to go out and gather information and come back and report to you?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: What did they report to you when they came back?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is why I am saying I cannot be so sure about the exact words, their explanation because I had left to buy some food.  I left with a car to buy some food.

MR SMUTS: Do you recall that a confession was proved against you in the criminal trial in the then Supreme Court in Umtata?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: The text of it is legibly recorded at page 81 of the judgement which is attached to the application paper bundle.  I want to read to you from the text of that confession from line 14.  Do you have it?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: It says, we went to a certain spot where whites arrived for holidays.  Is that correct?

MR ZILWA: Mr Chairman, I should point out that the witness has already indicated he is not very familiar with the English language.  I am not sure if my learned friend is confirming what is written in the report, which the witness will not be able to confirm or otherwise, he is not familiar with English, or whether he wants to confirm the content thereof, if that could be clarified.

MR SMUTS: Can we take it one stage at a time Mr Chairman.  Is it being interpreted to you Mr Mazwi?

LUNGILE MAZWI: It was just at the beginning.

MR SMUTS: Could I ask that that sentence be interpreted, which reads we went to a certain spot where whites arrived for holidays.

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I can hear that.

MR SMUTS: Yes.  Does that correctly reflect what you did, that you went to a spot where whites arrived for holidays?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct, because it is what I heard.

MR SMUTS: And is it correct that that is what you said to the Chief Magistrate at Lebodi in the course of making your confession?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: The statement then ...

CHAIRPERSON: Is the truth?

LUNGILE MAZWI: It is how, it is what I was told by the police from the Murder and Robbery Department, so I was supposed to put it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the truth?

MR ZILWA: Mr Chairman, just to get it clear the interpretation clear, he says that is what the police of Murder and Robbery told me, that that place is where the holiday makers go.

CHAIRPERSON: But is the contents, do you know whether the contents as it has been referred to by Mr Smuts, is it the truth or don't you know?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I said so, it is what I told the Court.  That is what I told the Court, it is so, I said so.  It is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking you what you told the Court.  I am not asking you what you told the police, I am asking what you have been referred to, is that the truth or not?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Unfortunately I am not a resident there at Port St Johns, I cannot say that was true or false, but that is what I got from the police that that place was for holiday makers.  Unfortunately I am not from Port St Johns, that was my very first time to be there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smuts, have you got many more questions left?

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, I want to canvass a number of averments in the statement, so it may take a while, so it might be an appropriate time to take an adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Can we start at nine o'clock tomorrow?

MR SMUTS: Certainly Mr Chairman.