Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR MMELESI: I did not - I don't remember as to whether whom I was assisting in the interrogation.

ADV MEMANI: You don't recall who was with you, you don't recall in which office you were and you don't recall who you interrogated on that day?

MR MMELESI: I explained that it happened a long time ago, I don't remember.  I would not say it's this person or that person because there were many.

ADV MEMANI: You don't recall whether people co-operated immediately or not?

MR MMELESI: You asked me a question as to - the first person asked me as to whether those people were co-operating or not.  I'd say were I was they were co-operating, where a took part as an interpreter, those people were co-operative.

ADV MEMANI: I find it strange, in the light of the fact that you have forgotten so many things that you can recall that you arrived in the office at 1 o'clock.

MR MMELESI: That is so because on that day I was together with Mr Du Plessis.  We were going to investigate then after lunch we came back to the office. And when we arrived there Mr Du Plessis told us that the ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: And what time did you leave work on that day?

MR MMELESI: We'd knock off at 4 o'clock.

ADV MEMANI: Did you actually knock off at 4 o'clock on that day?

MR MMELESI: I say we knock off at 4 o'clock.  On that day we took them to where they were supposed to be detained.

ADV MEMANI: And the evidence was that the detainees were taken to the various police stations after 5.

MR MMELESI: I explained that on that day, usually we knock off at 4 o'clock but on that day we did not knock off at 4 o'clock.  We were supposed to take those people where they were supposed to be detained.

ADV MEMANI: But why didn't you say that a moment ago when I asked you whether - what time did you knock off, you said - why did you not then just say we knock off at 4 o'clock?

MR MMELESI: That is like that.   I say usually we knock off at 4 o'clock but on that day we were supposed to - we did not go home, we were supposed to take those people to where they were supposed to be locked.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel asked you specifically how do you remember you remember you arrived there at 1 o'clock, and you told us you'd been working with DuPlessis and when you arrived back after lunch you were told about this.  Counsel then said what time did you knock off that day and you said 4 o'clock.

MR MMELESI: Let me clear it off.  We usually knock off at 4 o'clock, but at on that day we did not knock off at 4 o'clock, we were supposed to take those people were they were detained.

ADV MEMANI: Now, where did you take them?

MR MMELESI: We took them to Glen, if I remember well.

ADV MEMANI: With whom did you go to Glen?

MR MMELESI: I don't remember because we were many, we took them with cars and Kombis. I don't know  which Kombis because some of them were not more in use.

ADV MEMANI: And you don't recall the other person who was present when you took the persons except yourself.

MR MMELESI: We went with Kopi, Mafisa and Lieutenant Terreblanche, Warrant Officer Swanapoel.  I explained that with whom I was working during that time.

ADV MEMANI: But the question Mr ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: The question is: "On that day, can you remember with whom did you - did you go with a Kombi yourself?  Who was driving the Kombi?  Where you guarding the detainees?  What was your function in that Kombi or motor car or whatever you've been in? You yourself.

MR MMELESI: I said I did not - I don't remember as to who was driving and where was I sitting but what I know is that we took these people to where they were detained.

ADV MEMANI: With whom were you?

MR MMELESI: I don't remember with whom I was within that group.

ADV MEMANI: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Do you remember if Mr Motsamai was there?

MR MMELESI: Sir, I said we were many I do not remember as whether other people from various sections helped or not.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that the only people you took prisoners were yourself, Kopi and Motsamai.  ...[inaudible] can you because you can't remember?

MR MMELESI: I said its like that but I do not remember. The we were those people were many.

ADV MEMANI: The detainees were many?

MR MMELESI: There were 19 all in all. I do not remember who was there on that day and who was not there on that day.

ADV MEMANI: There were only three policemen, yourself, Kopi and Motsamai.

MR MMELESI: I said I do not remember whether other members from various sections helped to take these people to where they were supposed to be detained. I don't remember well.

ADV DE JAGER: And Mr Memanie, were they all travelling together in one vehicle, all 19 detainees and the three policemen?

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that it was not all 19 that were travelling in the same vehicle that Motsamai, Mmelesi and Kopi were.
    Now, Mr Mmelesi, for how long did you see Mr Ngo at security branch?

MR MMELESI: I don't remember, but I'd say it may be a month or two, I don't remember.

ADV MEMANI: ...[inaudible] period, a lengthy period, longer than two months.

MR MMELESI: No it might not be more that two months.

ADV MEMANI: And at that stage you believed that he was a member of the security branch?

MR MMELESI: The time when I arrived in the office he was there, I just took it that he was a member of the security branch but when I enquired they told be that he is a recruit.

ADV MEMANI: And he worked there regularly.

MR MMELESI: Yes, he was working as if he's a permanent staff member, that is why I regarded him as a member.

ADV MEMANI: And I want us to go back to the passage. I  I got the impression that the 5th floor forms an L.  Is that correct?

MR MMELESI: That is correct.  As I've explained that this passage would go this way, and here is a door and then it would go towards the main entrance.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So you mean capital letter?

ADV MEMANI: And Kopi described the area beyond the door as Violent Street.  Did you hear him say that?

MR MMELESI: I heard but I said myself it is a sticker which has been put on the wall.  It's a sticker, it's not the name of the passage which is Violent Street.

ADV MEMANI: But it is suprising that detainees would be there occasionally knew that the police called that passage Violent Street and you who was working on that passage did not know that your colleagues referred to that passage as Violent Street.

MR MMELESI: I dispute that.  I say when you enter the door you see the sticker first, then you'd just regard that that is a Violent Street but not that the name of that passage is Violent Street.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...[inaudible] by one of your colleagues that there was a sticker there and on one occasion, a detainee when he was brought onto the 5th floor, because of that sticker referred to it as Violent Street and from that time onwards the passage was known as Violent Street - actually it was Mr Kopi.

MR MMELESI: I would not dispute what he said but I said I knew only that as a passage then I saw that sticker, then I was not present him that from today that passage would be known as Violent Street.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is you evidence that a you have never at all yourself came to know that that passage was commonly referred to as Violent Street?

MR MMELESI: I  explained that there was a sticker which has been put there written Violent Street.  Nobody told me that you should know as from today that this passage is now known as Violent Street.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, sorry, I'm not asking you whether somebody did tell you that this is Violent Street. I'm only asking you, did you not come to know, just as other people came to know, that that passage was commonly known as Violent Street?  You never knew that?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I dispute that.  That what was only there was a sticker written Violent Street.