Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've been asked about the place where the shooting took place and I gather it's the first time you'd been there, you can't now tell us where it was.  Can you give us an estimate of how long it took to drive there from the shooting range?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the best part of an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that include the time that you spent changing the wheel or is it an hour's driving time?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, I would say an hour's driving time, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And an hour back?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And some minutes changing the wheel and some minutes shooting the deceased?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And all this time Major Taylor remained sitting back at the shooting range, as far as you know, by himself?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: As far as I know he was there when I came back, he might have left and done other things, I'm not aware of that, but he was there to meet us or to meet me on return.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was that?  Why should he want to be there to meet you?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No he was - he would have wanted to know the result, he would have wanted to know the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely he could have asked you to phone him?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, this kind of thing was to be discussed with my mouth only.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what were you going to discuss, surely all you had to say everything went well?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, that's all and that was the end of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I can't see why you can't say that on the telephone?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It just wasn't done, the instructions were "you come back, report to me physically and we'll break after that."

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Chairperson.  And when you reported back to him did you give him details as to how you killed Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Did you say you shot him?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Who gave the report?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I beg your pardon?

ADV SIGODI: Who gave the report to Major Taylor, who actually told him about what happened at Umbumbulu?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Well I gave a report to him, I don't know if anybody else in the bus also spoke.

ADV SIGODI: And Mr Makata, did he give any report to him?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I don't know if he did.

ADV SIGODI: You gave the report to Major Taylor?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I spoke to Major Taylor, I don't know if the other people spoke to Major Taylor but I informed him of the report.

ADV SIGODI: Was it just the two of you or were there other people present?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Which two?

ADV SIGODI: Was it just the two of you and Major Taylor or were there other people present?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, there was just Major Taylor and I spoke about it with each other.

ADV SIGODI: What happened to the other people?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I think they were still at their vehicles getting into their vehicles.  I don't know what they were doing.

ADV SIGODI: So can you remember your words, did you say everything went well?  He didn't ask for details as to who shot and where and all that detail?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, might I be allowed arising from some of the questions put just to ask this witness in clarification of something?  Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Wasserman you knew Major Taylor well, did you not?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: He died, I believe, approximately a year ago?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct sir.

MR VISSER: What was his condition, his mental condition if I may put it that way, prior to his death for example in 1996 as far as you personally are aware?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No by that stage his health was remarkably deteriorating, cancer was all over his body and his memory was very badly effected.

MR VISSER: His memory was badly effected.  Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
	May the witness then be excused?  Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Chairman I don't know what the rest of the procedure is, I think I should hand back to Mr Prior.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

ADV PRIOR: Is that the evidence from the applicants on the Bhila incident?

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman.  If I may say it's the only evidence that we are going to present on behalf of the persons for who we appear.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV PRIOR: I then call or ask leave to call Mr Ramatala.

MR VISSER: My attorney reminds me I should have made it clear that Mr Botha's evidence of course will obviously become relevant to Bhila's case in general as well.  Thank you Mr Chairman and then there's Mr Taylor's application, I don't know whether that's going to be dealt with now or later?

ADV PRIOR: Possibly we can hear from Mr Nel regarding the Taylor application?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I'm not quite sure how and what the procedure regarding Mr Taylor's application would be.  I don't know if the Chair could assist me, we have never dealt with an application of a deceased person before.  Perhaps Mr Prior can assist?

CHAIRPERSON: The decision as to whether we give a ruling can wait for the moment.  Are you going to call any other evidence in support of Mr Taylor's application?

MR NEL: No Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: May I then proceed with Mr Ramatala?  Please come forward Mr Ramatala.

ERNEST RAMATALA: (sworn states)

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ramatala, we're glad to have you here today and you are here to talk about or tell the Committee about what you know about the events surrounding the abduction or kidnapping of Mr Bhila during February of 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we do that can we have your full names, Mr Ramatala?

ERNEST RAMATALA: My name is Ernest.

ADV PRIOR: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I thought he read that out.  Now, if you could just give a bit of background to yourself, before 1987 and up till 1987 were you in the employ of the security police stationed at Pretoria?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And were you a member of Vlakplaas?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Now is it correct that, it seems to be common cause that on the 10th February 1987 a unit from Vlakplaas was sent down to Port Natal, that is Durban Port Natal.

ERNEST RAMATALA: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Under the command of Mr Frank McCarter?

ERNEST RAMATALA: And Andrew Letate.

ADV PRIOR: And with that group was also, we've heard, evidence Mr Bosch, Mr Rosslee and certain other members of Vlakplaas, is that correct?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Can you remember who the other persons were other than the persons I've now mentioned?

ERNEST RAMATALA: It myself, Letate, Pekkie Gadebe, Malaleka, Nobela, Tulo, Aaron Mtengo and another one by the name of Shakes Malaleka.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.

ERNEST RAMATALA: There were two Malalekas.

ADV PRIOR: What part of your contingent were there two Malalekas?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Definitely, another one is the one who has been released from prison, he's the one that I was with him to Mr Bhila's place.

ADV PRIOR: Alright, we'll get to that.  We've heard evidence that this unit was sent down on routine work in the Port Natal area and at some stage an instruction was given to make contact with Mr Bhila in Lamontville, is that correct?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Tell the Committee in your own words what you recall, what you remember about that evidence, about that event?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I recall when Mr Makata and Mr Letate briefed us that "gentlemen, there's somebody who has been released from prison that we must go and make an arrest."  So he was telling the whole group, then from there he said you, Ernest
and Nobela and Shakes, I must go and show you that place.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, what happened then?

ERNEST RAMATALA: So we went to Lamontville, myself, Letsatse, Gadebe, Spyker Mhieza and Nobela to Bhila's place.

ADV PRIOR: And was that in Lamontville?

ERNEST RAMATALA: In Lamontville.

ADV PRIOR: What was shown to you there?