Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-22

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I learnt that after - I heard the rumour that he was injured but I never saw him.  I cannot even say how he was injured.

MR BERGER: And that he was accidentally injured by Ernest Ntombela?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't know who injured him.  I heard a rumour that he injured himself.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Berger, could you please try and confine the questions to full disclosure, and that full disclosure to material facts.  I think we've got more or less the whole background of has happened, as well as to the political objective.  That is all.

MR BERGER: Advocate Sigodi, one of the points that we intend to argue at the end of the case is that all the people, well there's a pattern, that when an applicant is asked for people who were involved in the attack, other people, we get either co-applicants or people who or dead, or people who can't be identified.

ADV BOSMAN: Well then put that to the applicant because the pattern would emerge from all the evidence that we have heard so far.

MR BERGER: Yes, and what I'm doing is, I'm going through co-accused who were acquitted.  And what is emerging from the answers is that either the witness does not know them or he does not know that they were in Boipatong on the night of the attack.  So it's aimed at full disclosure, is very I'm going, but I'll bring it to an end.
	Let me just give you the names of the people that I'm going to ask you whether any of them were in Boipatong on the night of the attack:  Tandanane Ngubane, Ephraim Kasane, Jotham Zulu, Methlandodo Sibiya, Hunter Selo Ndlovu, Swelemuti Msane,  Masinane Sithole, Bhekumuzi Ngema.  Were any of those people in Boipatong on the night of the massacre?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, they were there.

MR BERGER: All the people whose names I've just mentioned?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct, all those people were there.

MR BERGER: The first time you met Andries Nosenga was at KwaMadala hostel before you were arrested for your participation  in the massacre, is that correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, that is not correct.

MR BERGER: When was the first time you met Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, the evidence that we have here is that he met Mr Nosenga upon his release on bail.

MR BERGER: Finally, Mr Magubane, you told the Committee that
"We did what we did in Boipatong because we knew the police were not there."
Do you remember that?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: You knew that the police and the army patrolled outside the hostels, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That hostel is inside Iscor premises so the security belonging to Iscor used to patrol there.  Soldiers will only come where there was political unrest, the same way as they were patrolling in the townships.

MR BERGER: The soldiers and the police, in particular the soldiers, would patrol along the road which came from the hostel, in fact along the road that you walked along, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, they used that road because there is no other road they would use if they wanted to enter the hostel.  So you have to go under the bridge and they will use that road and then they will turn there at the Queenspark field.

MR BERGER: Yes, they wouldn't come all the way to the hostel, they would use that road and then they would turn back.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct, they will turn back.

MR BERGER: Now how did you know that the police and the army and Iscor security would be nowhere in sight as you left he hostel that night, would be nowhere in sight for an hour or two hours as you massacred the residents of Boipatong?  How did you know that there would be no police, army or Iscor security present?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: We knew that they would not see us but if they were present, we would see them.  We knew that they would not see us.

MR BERGER: How did you know that they would not see you, because after all you didn't hide on your way to Boipatong, you walked along the main road to Boipatong, and when you returned to KwaMadala, you didn't hid, you walked along the main road and came back in through the main entrance.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: We didn't know that they would not see us because we used the same road, the road that they use.  So they would have seen us if they were there.  So we didn't see any Caspir when we crossed the bridge, under the bridge.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magubane, the question is this;  your behaviour that night in walking along the road into Boipatong and coming back the same road without an attempt to hide yourselves suggests that you knew that the police were either not there or they were not going to do anything to you, do you understand that?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that the police were not going to see you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: We are the only people who were using that road, during the day and during the night.  So we know that at a certain time the police are not around that area and there are no cars that are using that road.  So we were running when we left the hostel so as to see ourselves going under the bridge.  We were running because we were hurrying to arrive where we were going.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	You were chanting se'Sotho as you moved towards Boipatong, were you not?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: I want to put it to you that the reason that you and your fellow attackers were so brazen in leaving KwaMadala through the main gate and returning back through the main gate and making no attempt to conceal yourselves or your weapons or the loot that you were carrying, is because you well knew and you had been given the assurance by Themba Khosa and by certain policemen, that you would not be interfered with on the night of the attack, instead you would be assisted by the police.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is not so, there was no-one that told us that the police would assist us when we attack the people of Boipatong.  We didn't know about that.  If it was known, maybe it was known to a few people.

MR BERGER: You mean to the leaders of the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: If it was discussed or it was known, it was only known to the leadership, those people who were involved in the planning because I would not be in a position to disagree with them when they say so.

MR BERGER: But you never asked anyone, either a co-attacker or someone in leadership?  You never said;  what about Iscor security, what about the police, what about the army, they might catch us our way to Boipatong.  You never raised those concerns?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is so.

MR BERGER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Magubane, when Richard Dlamini was coming to the rooms to tell you to take out the things that you stole from the township, who was he with?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He was alone.

MR MALINDI: Was he not with Matanda?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well I did not see him with Matanda.  I know Matanda, he speaks too much, I know him.  Even if he was with Matanda, maybe Matanda was in another room.

MR MALINDI: Was he not with Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize as well?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't know, I don't remember well.

MR MALINDI: Did you see either Matanda or Mr Mkhize also helping to inform the residents to take out the goods to be burnt?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That hostel is very big, I won't be able to see around the hostel.  There are places that I will not be able to see.

MR MALINDI: Mr Mazibuko who gave evidence before you said that Mr Dlamini, Mr Mkhize and Matanda were telling people to take things out, you didn't see that?