Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: This was ...(indistinct) from statements that you already have in your possession.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Louis make any proposals emanating from Mr Barnard?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There were no internal activities that came from him.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to summarise the whole of your evidence in this regard.   As you are sitting there, you are unable to give positive evidence that: "I authorised that particular transaction to that particular operative"?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson no, it was not my function.  I know that according to the statements that are available, that Region 6 and the Regional Manager Mr Burger, gave out operations as for instance Slang van Zyl who worked in the Cape, Slang van Zyl was mainly responsible for what happened here, like the incident of a bomb explosion at the Early Learning Centre and he was responsible for the project regarding Dullah Omar and the case of Mr Evans.  It was Mr Botha.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me repeat the question.  If your evidence whilst I was going through these names was honest, you are unable to say as you are sitting there that you authorised a specific act to any particular of the applicants whose names I gave you?

MR WESSELS: No Mr Chairperson, the witness has already answered it.  He said that van Zyl was on Omar and Botha was working on Evans.  This is exactly what he'd said.

GEORGE BIZOS: But not with certainty.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question asked by Mr Bizos is, can you, as you sit here, recall whether you gave any direct authorisation to any of the applicants, that includes Staal Burger, in respect of any particular operation?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, I read it out.  I can with 100% conviction say that for Region 6 and the activities that we lay before you, that I gave the orders for this after they had presented it to me.  The specific detail of  what happened on ground level, I do not know of, but as a result of the way the structure was structured and as a result of the fact that Mr Staal Burger brought it to me and then I accept what he said to me and then certain meetings took place and then I authorised it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just to get it clear then.  Staal Burger would come and say:  "Right, we've got a potential operation.  These are the facts, let's say it's Mr Dullah Omar's matter, this is our information.  You would receive that, consider it, take it up the next step to somebody in Special Forces or whatever and then when it came back to you, it was decided to go ahead with the operation, you would then  tell, or order if that's the correct word, Staal Burger to go ahead and proceed with it and then thereafter he would go down to his level and appoint whichever operative he wishes to carry out the instruction.  Is that more or less what you're saying?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: May I just summarise it as follows, Mr Chairperson?  Information can come from ground level.  In the case of Region 6, there is a pre-emptive study done and this is building up the plan and then the Co-ordinator will one day come and in this case it was Christo Britz, he would come to me and he would say that they would like to make a presentation to me.  They get aside, they co-ordinated, I go for the presentations, I listened to the presentations, I will then consider it and then I say to them:  "I will talk to you later" and then I  will then clear it up and that is how I did it and then the authorisation, if it came, I will say to them:  "It is okay and there is a budget and this comes from the formal Defence Force Structures" and this, everything that I am saying to you now is something that is put in writing and has been put in writing for many years and the Commission does have it in its possession.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: From what I understood, the thrust of that question was in a subtly different way.  As you sit here today, if you ignored all these affidavits and everything else, you have no independent recollection of giving those instructions.  That's what I thought you were being asked.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I was under the impression that I had answered this.  I can remember specifically and the reason why I say that I can remember this is because I created the structure.  I created Region 6.  I know what the role and function was and I knew what I had said and what I had authorised.

MR LAX: I'm meaning it in a different sense.  You don't remember the date, the place, the time, exactly who was present?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I cannot specify this, because the structure was so big.

MR LAX: Precisely.  So other than in a general sense that you know you were part of the - you were at a certain echelon, head of a structure with others above you, but that you were a certain node at which the decision was channelled downwards through you, other than that and that you can say: "I remember that I gave - I passed on the approval for that particular operation or plan or whatever it might be, other than that, you don't remember exactly when you did it, who was present, who you actually spoke to.  You don't have an independent recollection of that event, other than you must have spoken to Burger because why, he was the next person below you.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Chairperson, I do remember meetings where Slang van Zyl was present and it was with the region, the precise date, time and place - it was 11 years ago, I do not know this, but I do know that I did this.

MR LAX: Maybe that's something we can canvass later, but that was my understanding of what you were saying.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now when you say you remember, I'm going to suggest to you that this was not your evidence originally, but I don't want to argue that now.  You say that you gave your authority in writing for each and every act that had to be performed by the Manager and the operatives.  Is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was the structure, Chairperson.  At times when it went quickly, there were verbal discussions and then later the budget was signed.  In the case of Region 6, as I recall it, there was sufficient administration and then I authorised it in writing.  I will listen to the plan.  If the plan is approved, and then I discussed it with the Chairperson and then either the Chairperson would sign it, or at times when it was a verbal matter, I would sign it, that is how it happened in practice.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you were satisfied, nothing could happen if the Chairman did not approve it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't know, please repeat the question.

GEORGE BIZOS: You had to seek confirmation from the Chairman according to your evidence and statements that have been made.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was the Chairman at the time of Minister Omar's attempted murder?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was Gen Webb, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was the Chairman at the time of the attempted murder of Evans?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was also Gen Webb, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was the Chairman for the Early Learning Centre?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was also Gen Webb, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And who was the Chairman when steps were taken against Bishop Tutu?

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, the applicant didn't apply for amnesty in regard to Bishop Tutu and I therefore submit that he needn't answer any questions.  It may reveal certain incidents - it may incriminate him at a later stage, if in fact it is an offence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Chairman, an application was made ...

CHAIRPERSON: Some of the applicants reply in respect of ...

GEORGE BIZOS: And presumably they're going to say that they did it on this person's authority.  It is a passing strange situation when the person that has the authority says that:  "I refuse to answer", but it's his choice Mr Chairman.  I persist in the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll allow the question, Mr Wessels.