Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

MR RICHARD: And would these training sessions go on for a couple of hours, all day?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It will be a few hours because that would take place at night.

MR RICHARD: Now by August, would you have considered the deceased properly trained?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: If I go back to that period and refer to that period I would say yes, but today no, not according to today's standards.

MR RICHARD: Now so far what I've understood, the deceased would have been aware of the names of his fellow cell members, who the overall commander of the cell was and that they had firearms, would he have been aware of anything else?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: As far as I know I don't know as to whether there was something else he would have been aware of, I wouldn't know.
Well earlier you stated that the deceased had not participated in any operations or missions, in fact I ask the next question, was he party to the discussion of any planned operations and missions?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: The priority at the time was training.  He had not yet reached the level of taking part inasfar ...(indistinct) as I was a commander as well at the time.

MR RICHARD: So that meant at no stage, if I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, was the deceased involved in the planning of any missions or the knowledge of any missions that might take place, he had no such knowledge?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now in that sense you could hardly describe the deceased as a fully trained MK soldier, that description would be wrong?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We'll be mistaken to assume that because he only went through a crash course.

MR RICHARD: And what was his duty in the cell, what was his function in the cell?  What was he supposed to do?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: The first duty was for him to be responsible to find a base or hide-out places.

MR RICHARD: Did he do any of that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: During that period it's only one that he managed to find or get.

MR RICHARD: Was it ever used?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, it was used by himself and Sipho.

MR RICHARD: And neither Sipho nor him got caught at that place?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When was this that he was using this hide-out?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It was not an operation for a long time because he was given that task to find hiding places for us and he brought back the report and they went to sleep, himself and Sipho, but it's not like this went on or it was prolonged.

CHAIRPERSON: He was still carrying on his normal duties then, wasn't he?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: He was still carrying on his normal duties, wasn't he, working with the Detainees Parents Support Committee and things of that nature?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was still at school, wasn't he?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I believe he was still at school.

MR RICHARD: And there was nothing wrong with him continuing all his ordinary activities, nothing had changed as far as he was concerned, is that not  correct?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know what you mean by saying nothing had changed.

MR RICHARD: The fact that he had joined your cell didn't mean that he had to change any of his activities, that he was perfectly at liberty to go wherever he went and to carry on his Detainees Parents Support Committee, Sosco, SRC, schooling, in fact it was expected?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That was not a problem.

MR RICHARD: Now it follows that if he was working with detained persons parents and going to various meetings concerning the school activities and the SRC and Sosco, he would be seen in and around Soweto on a regular basis.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He would have been seen where?

MR RICHARD: Around at various places in Soweto and Johannesburg I add.  It would have been part of his normal activities to do that, would it not?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That I won't dispute.

MR RICHARD: So that means when we go to October the 12th 1987, it was not surprising that he was detained on his way to school, he was going about his ordinary activities.  Was it surprising?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I am not surprised because he was not the first one to be detained at school.

MR RICHARD: So that means, if I understand your answer, you were aware of his detention on the way to school on that day?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was not sure as to how he was arrested or he got arrested.

MR RICHARD: Now what do you know of that event, tell us please.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I heard was he was arrested.  As to whether he was going to DPSC on that particular day in question I don't know because he used to go there quite a lot, but what I know is he was arrested on that day.  As to when and how he was arrested and all that pertaining to that I don't know, I'm not sure.

MR RICHARD: Do you know where he was arrested?

DR TSOTSI: Mr Richard, I don't want to disturb you, but of what importance is that question, the question where he was detained or is it ...?

MR RICHARD: Before explaining the relevance of the question I would prefer an answer.

MR KOOPEDI: The witness has answered this question.

MR RICHARD: What was the answer?  I haven't heard him answer me whether he knew where the deceased was arrested on that day.

MR KOOPEDI: The witness said he heard that he was arrested and he's not sure whether he was going to DPSC or wherever, but he knew that the deceased used to got to DPSC.

MR RICHARD: Well what I want to confirm, because there often seems to be misunderstanding, is that he doesn't know where the witness was arrested.

ADV SANDI: Yes, that's the way I understand him.  You have asked him if he knew that the deceased had been arrested, then he says yes, I heard that he was arrested but where he was going and how he was arrested I do not know.  And then you asked him does he know where the deceased was arrested, where?  He has not answered that.  But I would express the same sentiment as my colleague, I'm not sure about the relevance of that question.

MR RICHARD: The relevance is Mr Dube some time ago gave evidence that he had information that this arrest took place at the offices of the Detainees Parents Support Committee in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Well this witness has said he doesn't know ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: This witness has said he doesn't know if he was going to or not, he often went there.
	You don't know where he was arrested, do you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not certain.

MR RICHARD: Do you know of any arrest with a firearm and a handgrenade?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: Do you know of any arrest of the deceased with a firearm and a handgrenade?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I'll explain to you is that his arrest, yes, he did have such in his possession.  As to whether he had them at that time when he was being arrested, that much I don't know but I know that they were seen.  As to whether he had them in his possession at that particular point in time, I don't know.  I know they were confiscated subsequently.

MR RICHARD: Who confiscated them?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: The police did.

MR RICHARD: When did the police confiscate them?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: There is one thing I would like to explain and elaborate on, that as soon as his arrest I never saw him thereafter.  As to when they confiscated them, that much I don't know.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Richard.
	When did you become aware that he had been arrested with weapons, with a firearm or a handgrenade?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he doesn't know if they were.  "I don't know if he had them in his possession, they were confiscated subsequently."

ADV SANDI: When did you become aware that they had been confiscated from him?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: When I met him, that's when I gathered that.

ADV SANDI: And that was before he disappeared?