Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-26

MR JAMIE: It would be interesting to see who testifies and corroborates your evidence, sir.  You were asked by a number of people in the ANC, in the ANC's structures.  In fact it went as high as Chris Hani but also Gladstone Ntamo, Mzwale Jacobs who was investigating the matter, they all asked you about this and you've described yourself as a disciplined ANC member and you denied to all of them that you were involved.  Why did you do that?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: This incident to me, it was not easy for me to relate.  I was frightened but at the same time I was advised by Mr Langa not to talk about this because he was the one who was prepared to tell the people about the incident.

MR JAMIE: When did Mr Langa die, sir?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I cannot remember the year but if I'm not mistaken I think it was in 1994.

MR JAMIE: So it was some three years after this incident, is that correct?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I am not certain about the year but I am just assuming.

MR JAMIE: It was a long time after this incident that he died?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes that is correct but after I had told him.

MR JAMIE: And even after he died you didn't tell the ANC about what had happened?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: No, I did not tell the ANC because I knew that telling the lawyers was enough and they were going to inform the ANC because I knew that the statement would still be there.

MR JAMIE: Sir I just want to go back to part of your evidence this morning and just ask you something about it.  You said and in cross-examination from Mr Williams you said well you didn't regard Gladstone Ntamo as a commander in the battlefield, is that correct?  Is that correct?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes I said I did not take him as a commander when I was going to fight.

MR JAMIE: But in your evidence in chief this morning you said you were asked by your attorney what was Mr Ntamo's role and you said he was a community leader.  The SDUs regarded him as the commander, that was your answer, is that correct?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And he was also the person from whom you got your weapons, is that correct?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now when you were asked if you embarked on a mission did you tell Ntamo or the other commanders your answer was no, you would just tell him that you were going to patrol, that's what you would tell him?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: You wouldn't tell him you were going to go on a mission and attack police, is that correct?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: There was no need for me to tell him that I was going to attack the police.  He knew that whenever I need a firearm I'm going to attack the police.

MR JAMIE: So you're saying that when you went to Mr Ntamo and you said well "I want a firearm" and he said "what for?" and your answer was "I want to patrol" that was almost a code and he understood that what you meant was you were going to attack the police, is that your evidence?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now why was it necessary that you and he as the commander and you had this code, why didn't you just tell him "well, as you know I'm going to attack the police"?  Why was it necessary to tell him "I'm going to patrol" and then he knew you were going to attack the police?  Can you explain that?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: When I am patrolling in the Black areas or townships when the police come the situation would depend.  If the police come and I would just attack that was my definition of a patrol.

MR JAMIE: So in every patrol if you saw police you would attack them?  Is that correct?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: >   But then in eight years of being an SDU member you only could tell us of two attacks so how do you explain that?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes I can say only two times, only two incidents, ...(indistinct) incidents where people died but in other attacks people did not die.

MR JAMIE: So you'll attack the police on a regular basis but you only killed people twice, is that your evidence?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I used to attack police all the time if I see them and only if I am armed.

MR JAMIE: Now you were asked why did you not tell your commanders before a commission - I'm sorry, you were asked whether you didn't tell the commanders that you were going to attack the police and you said not before a mission and then you were asked, "well, why not?" and you said you were scared the police would be waiting for you.  Do you remember that question and that answer?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: So in other words, what you're telling this tribunal is that you were scared that if you told Gladstone Ntamo that you were going to attack the police he or someone else might tell the police and they'd be waiting for you, that's the effect of your evidence, not so?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes I was also following the policy of the unit that if you are discussing about a certain mission that was going to be taken, a person who is not involved in the mission should not know anything about it.

MR JAMIE: What I find difficult to understand is how you could have those reservations about Ntamo when he was the very person who had to give you the guns in the first place?  He kept the weapons, you had to trust him because he had the weapons, surely?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes he knew when he gave me the firearm he knew that I was going to attack the police.

MR JAMIE: So he knew you were going to attack the police but then the answer that you gave is in any event misleading because you were asked why didn't you tell your commander and said well you didn't because the police might be waiting for you but if he knew that you were going to attack the police then that answer doesn't make sense, does it?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I never used to tell him, I would tell him only after the mission.  I wouldn't tell him straight that I was going to attack the police but he was aware that whenever I mentioned the word patrol I'm referring to attacking the police.

MR JAMIE: Well okay, maybe Mr Ntamo will come and tell us about that.  Sir, I put it to you that your evidence before this tribunal has been a tissue of lies, you're not telling the truth?

MR JAMIE: All I'm saying is that I am telling the truth and I could not call the Truth Commission and Pro Jack's family knowing very well that I'm going to tell lies.  If it had happened the other way around or perhaps I was instructed by people from other organisations or from the then government, I was going to reveal their names here, I have nothing to hide.

MR JAMIE: I put it to you that you killed Pro Jack knowing who you were killing, you intended to kill him?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: No, I did not know the comrade I hadn't seen him before.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, we are trying to concentrate on what is being said here, please don't interfere in the proceedings.  Carry on?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I did not know the comrade, all I knew was that I only knew Buyiswa Jack because I had known him from 1986 as our property was then down at KTC.  He used to go to the churches visiting the people who were victims.  That is how I got to know him.  He used to go to KTC even in 1987.  There's no other person that I knew from his family.

MR JAMIE: And you killed him for reasons that you know which you're not telling this tribunal.  Whether they had to do with revenge because of something concerning Mr Toyise or because of the taxi violence that was going on and where Pro was trying to make peace between the different groups, you know the reason and that is why you killed him?