Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

ADV MEMANI: It seems it's a convenient time.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll take the lunch adjournment now
till 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, shortly before the lunch adjournment you will recollect that you suggested that the person who's now about to give evidence, consult with me.  This is Mr Disco Mothege and reference to him appears in bundle A at page 40 -  reference to this gentleman.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 40?

MR BRINK: Page 40 of bundle A.

DISCO MOTHEGE: (sworn states)

MR BRINK: Mr Mothege, is that how you pronounce your name?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, that is the correct pronounciation.

MR BRINK: Do you see the applicant sitting in the front row of the auditorium behind the camera man?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, I can see him.

MR BRINK: When did you first see him?

DISCO MOTHEGE: I first saw him during the testimony of Jack Menega, I think it was around March or April.

MR BRINK: Of this year?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, in 1997.

MR BRINK: And is it true that you are a school teacher by profession?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, I'm a teacher by profession.

MR BRINK: Did you ever teach at the Matshedisa School?

DISCO MOTHEGE: I have never taught at the Matshedisa School.

MR BRINK: Now, I have referred you to page 40 of the bundle of papers before you where your name appears on a short list of those who are alleged to have been members of an anti-comrade group or organisation, do you see that?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, I can.

MR BRINK: Were you ever a member of supporter of any anti-comrades organisation of group?

DISCO MOTHEGE: I have never been a member of any of the gangs.

MR BRINK: Did you know Jack Menega?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, I know Jack.

MR BRINK: And was it he who drew your attention to the presence of Mr Ngo the applicant, in March or April of this year when Jack Menega gave evidence?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, it's him.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Mothege.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The person you're referring to behind the camera was in fact Mr Ngo, is that right?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Visser on record.  Mr Chairman, perhaps just by way of clarification, a question or two.
	In what sense or regard did Mr Menega draw you attention to Mr Ngo, what did he say to you?

DISCO MOTHEGE: He said to me that is the person who wrote down the list of your names, this person applied for amnesty and your names appear in his statement.

MR VISSER: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR STANDER: Stander speaking.  Mr Chairman, I've got no questions to this witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Mothege, is it correct that you are in fact a primary school teacher or where a primary school teacher at the time, around '85, '86?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And it's also true that you are related to the Mokalakes?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, that is true, I'm related to them.

ADV MEMANI: And you see Mr, my instructions in fact they come from Mr Ngo, are that he says that you are a member of the anti-comrades group because when you went to Brandfort, Ramosoeu introduced him to inform us - let me say he told him about the informers who were working with the security branch and he mentioned you as one of the persons that they should never shoot at, should the occasion arise for them to shoot at comrades who would be fighting with the gangsters there.

DISCO MOTHEGE: I dispute that evidence.

ADV MEMANI: I don't think you can dispute that Ramosoeu actually told him that you cooperated with the Mokalakes as part of the anti-comrades group and that you should never be shot at, should the occasion arise for shooting at people by the security branch.

DISCO MOTHEGE: I repeat, I dispute what is being said.

ADV MEMANI: I think it's within your rights to dispute that it was true that you were actually associated with them as part of their gangster or the anti-comrades associations.

DISCO MOTHEGE: That is not correct.  I leaded with all - everybody, even the comrades.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

MR BRINK: No re-examination thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be excused now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV MEMANI: (cont)
	Now Mr Motsamai, you were telling us about the incident regarding the murder at Melk Street.  What happened to the firearm that was used?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That firearm, I cannot tell whether it was after three months or four, Sergeant Mamome told me that a man by the name of "Yster" who sold gas cylinders in Rocklands location said to him he needed a gun however, a licensed firearm.  Because this man needed a firearm, he took the very firearm in question and gave it to Yster - the very gun that we used to kill this old man.
	When he gave this man the gun there was a man by the name of Mabilo -   M-a-b-i-l-o, he worked at Yster's premises selling gas cylinders.  They saw the gun - the firearm but they didn't know that the gun has been used to kill the old man I told you about where we went to kill this old man or China if we found him at that place.  
	He took the gun because Sergeant Mamome told him that he can use the gun however, if it happens that you shoot at people, you mustn't disclose the gun.  He gave him the remaining bullets - there could have been six or seven in  number.  As he gave him the firearm I knew that was the gun we used and he emphasized that this is the gun we used on that occasion when we killed that old man.  I said yes, I can still remember the gun - the firearm.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Motsamai, I hope that concludes your evidence regarding the incident of the death of George Musi and may we proceed to deal with the second incident at page 146 ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I couldn't follow unfortunately one of the answers or - he said: "Yster asked for a firearm" and then something about a licence.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That was when he told Sergeant Mamome that he needed a licensed firearm however Sergeant Mamome gave him this firearm - I'll arrange that you get a licence.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether a licence was arranged?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not know, I have never heard that his licence has been arranged - the firearm licence.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, I couldn't hear any answer.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Up till today, I do not recall ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Repeat the answer?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Up till today, I do not know if or rather Sergeant Mamome never came to me ...[intervention]  [Committee has problems with headphones]

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly repeat the answer please.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Up till today he never came to me or I never saw the approval where this man made an application for a licence for the firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Now, the next incident is the one involving the burning of the house of Winnie Mandela.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Can you tell the Committee about that incident please.