Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: Can you tell the Committee who were your colleagues that went to purchase the diamonds with you?

UNKNOWN: It was Almond Nofomela, myself and Ernst Ramthala(?).  There were some other people including Dirk Coetzee, there were a lot of people, and Vermeulen.

MR JANSEN: Was Joe Mamasela involved?

UNKNOWN: All this was being said when we were trying to go to purchase the diamonds, he was not around.

MR JANSEN: Where were these diamonds to be purchased?

UNKNOWN: Lesotho.
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MR JANSEN	155	MR D CHIKALANGA

MR JANSEN: Who travelled to Lesotho?

UNKNOWN: Just myself and Almond.

MR JANSEN: Anybody else?

UNKNOWN: No.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chikalanga, in your application you state that Joe Mamasela went with, or are you referring to another stage?

UNKNOWN: Actually he went with us to Lesotho on the second time, after we have realised that the diamonds we received in Lesotho was not real diamonds, so we went back to return the money.

MR JANSEN: Where did you get the money to purchase the diamonds from?

UNKNOWN: We were given by Dirk Coetzee.

MR JANSEN: How much did you receive from Dirk Coetzee?

UNKNOWN: It was R5 000.

MR JANSEN: Did you in fact purchase diamonds with that money?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR JANSEN: And where did you take those diamonds?

UNKNOWN: We came back with the diamond and we showed Dirk Coetzee and that's when he said we should go back because that's not real diamond, so we didn't know that it was not diamond.

MR JANSEN: And did you in fact do as Captain Coetzee told you at that stage, did you in fact return to Lesotho with the diamonds?

UNKNOWN: Yes, we went back to Lesotho together with Joe, we were three, myself, Joe and Almond.  When we arrived in Lesotho that's when we found the guy and we spoke with him again and they said we should come back with him so that
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they will speak with him in Johannesburg here in South Africa from Maseru.

MR JANSEN: Who was doing most of the discussions with this diamond dealer, was it you or was it one of the others?

UNKNOWN: It was Joe and Almond.

MR JANSEN: And did you then in fact depart from Lesotho with this diamond dealer?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he said we were going to meet him near Ladybrand.  During that time I cannot remember whether it was one o'clock or two o'clock.

MR JANSEN: And how did you travel upon your return to South Africa?

UNKNOWN: When we met him Almond and Joe spoke with him inside his car, I remained in our car, Almond's car, I was sitting there, they were speaking with him and they ended up saying go forward we will meet you on the way.  They said I should drive back home, they will meet met in Vlakplaas.

MR JANSEN: Did either Joe or Almond at any stage tell you what their intentions with the diamond dealer were?

UNKNOWN: Yes, when we arrived there as we were talking, there was one guy who was coming from Lesotho.  I did not know diamond before.  They said we were looking for money.

MR JANSEN: No, but on your way to Lesotho with Almond and Joe to return the diamonds, and again returning to South Africa with the diamond dealer, did you know what was about to happen with the diamond dealer, did you know that they were going to kill him?

UNKNOWN: No, they never told me anything.  They never told me anything.
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MR JANSEN	157	MR D CHIKALANGA

MR JANSEN: What did they tell you or what did you know
about what was their reason for asking the diamond dealer to return with them to South Africa?

UNKNOWN: That's nothing that they said to me.  They only told me that they were going to meet me in Vlakplaas.  They said they were going to meet him here in South Africa.

MR JANSEN: You proceeded to Vlakplaas.  Did you arrive at Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I went back to Vlakplaas alone.

MR JANSEN: And when did you see Almond and Joe again?

UNKNOWN: I saw them late, when they came with Dirk Coetzee, when they came to the farm.

MR JANSEN: And in what car were they travelling at that stage?

UNKNOWN: They were driving a Datsun (indistinct).

MR JANSEN: And what were you told at that stage once you had met with them again?

UNKNOWN: They said they ended up killing the diamond dealer in Lindley.

MR JANSEN: And who gave instructions as to what was supposed to happen thereafter?

UNKNOWN: That's when Dirk Coetzee said let's go to the area where they killed him together with Almond because Almond knew where they killed the diamond dealer.  So we went there together, myself and Dirk and we found the corpse.

MR JANSEN: You must have realised at that time that what Almond and Joe had done was to commit a murder that had nothing to do with your work at Vlakplaas, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR JANSEN: And I assume that you realised that the purpose
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of getting hold of the body was to make sure that Joe and
Almond does not get into trouble.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: Did you think that following Dirk Coetzee's instructions in this regard was part of your duty as a member of Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: I can say there's something wrong, because there were many things which were happening.  They used to cover up those things.

MR JANSEN: If Dirk Coetzee told you to make a statement about everything - a truthful statement about the incident, will you have done so?

UNKNOWN: To give whom?

MR JANSEN: If Captain Coetzee had instructed you to in fact not cover up and give a truthful statement, would you have done that?  Would you have followed his orders?

UNKNOWN: Yes, of course.

MR JANSEN: What do you think would have happened to you if you hadn't followed Mr Coetzee's orders or instructions as far as covering up is concerned, in other words, if you had gone to the police, the ordinary police, and told them that a murder had been committed?

UNKNOWN: Actually, it was going to be difficult for me because there were so many people who  used to talk a lot who ended up being killed, so it was very difficult.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS
	Mr Chikalanga, you were never instructed nor ordered by your senior to kill the diamond dealer, am I right?--- Yes.
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
MR MPSHE	159	MR D CHIKALANGA

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In fact, this incident had nothing to do with your official operations.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And further, it was a personal venture for gain.

UNKNOWN: I agree.

JUDGE WILSON: In fact, as I understand your evidence and the other information we have, the purpose of going back to Maseru was to get your money back, is that so?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you return all the diamonds or were there any of the diamonds kept?

UNKNOWN: Yes, we returned all the diamonds.

UNKNOWN: None of the diamonds were kept and sold locally.

UNKNOWN: As far as I am concerned I don't know, because when we went back to Lesotho the diamond was in possession of Almond and Joe Mamasela.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Chikalanga, do you know why you didn't insist on the diamond dealer giving you back the R5 000 that he had taken and why you had to trick him to come back to South Africa?

UNKNOWN: I don't have any evidence or information.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You say we tricked him to come with us to South Africa.  Were you not part of the whole plan, the whole operation of getting your money back?

UNKNOWN: What I am saying, as I have said before, while they were discussing with him, Almond and Joe, when they told him that we are going to meet him outside the border of Lesotho next to Ladybrand, they were alone.  A lot of things they discussed I can't tell you because I was not there.
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160	MR D CHIKALANGA

SISI KHAMPEPE: You in fact did not take any decision to have the diamond dealer brought back to the country, it was Nofomela and Mr Mamasela.