Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Did you question him why he wanted you to kill her even though you had the firearm in your possession?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I was panicking and scared because when I looked at Mduduzi's face he had already changed, he was scaring me and I though if I were to question him he was going to turn and shoot at me.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Reddy, just to get this more clear, is it the only reason that you shot this person, is it simply because you were scared of Mduduzi otherwise you would not have shot the person he was instructing you to shoot?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, thank you Ms Reddy.

MS REDDY: Why didn't you testify in court and come clean that you were responsible for one shooting?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I did mention in court that Mduduzi gave me a gun and instructed me to shoot Mrs Ferrero because the other one Mduduzi had already shot at.

MS REDDY: No Mr Jili, you did not testify in court, you actually kept silent right through the proceedings?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: In court I pleaded not guilty.

MS REDDY: Why did you plead not guilty?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: The reason was we were not supposed to sell other comrades.  We knew from long time that if you were arrested as a comrade you must die alone, you mustn't reveal other comrades.

MS REDDY: So you lied on behalf of your comrades when you were under oath?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MS REDDY: Mr Chairperson, I refer you to the application of Mr Jili.  Paragraph 10 (b).

CHAIRPERSON: That's page 2 of the bundle.

MS REDDY: Mr Jili, you say in your paragraph (b)
"no one was allowed to kill us except God."
Can I ask you if you are God?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No I am not God, the one reason I did this was because Mduduzi instructed me to do so and I don't think on my own I could have done something like this.

MS REDDY: So all the time you are hiding behind the instructions of Mduduzi?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MS REDDY: Why didn't you bring him here today to testify on your behalf?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I did write letters to all of them and I told them to come forward so that we tell the whole country the truth and I decided to apply for amnesty.  I thought since they were outside free maybe they did apply for this because people were told to apply for amnesty.

MS REDDY: Where is your ANC membership card?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: At home.

MS REDDY: Why didn't you make any endeavours to bring that card here today so that you could offer us solid proof as to your membership?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I wanted to do so but I'm not from home, I'm from the Eastern Cape and I couldn't contact people from home when I was in Westville.  I wanted to tell them to bring it here but then I failed contacting them.

MS REDDY: Where are you from?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Eastern Cape, Umtata.

MS REDDY: Didn't you tell this sitting that you're from the region near Richmond?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Are you in prison in Umtata?  You're serving your sentence in Umtata prison?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes I'm in prison in Umtata, I'm being transferred from Umtata prison to Westville Prison for this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes to come here, alright.  Ms Reddy?

MS REDDY: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS REDDY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Reddy.
	  Mr Mapoma any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.
	Mr Jili, prior to you joining the ANC in 1991 did you belong to any political organisation?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Which organisation was it?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: At the time before 1990 it was UDF.

MR MAPOMA: During that time was there any conflict between the UDF and IFP in your area?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No, there wasn't.

MR MAPOMA: So is it your evidence this conflict arose only in 1992?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: In your application in page 2 of the paginated bundle, in your application there in paragraph 9(c) you are required to state the name of the victim.  You say
"There was one White man there"
and you go on to say that the White man was a farmer.  Who is this White man you are referring to in that application?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I think it was a mistake what is written there that it's a White man because it's not a White man.

MR MAPOMA: So there was no White man as such, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: There was no White man but there was a Coloured.

MR MAPOMA: Who completed this application form?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It is another inmate from Johannesburg.

MR MAPOMA: And he was interpreting to you the questions and you would tell him the answers and he would write, is it so?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: How was he doing it, would he read one question and you would tell him the answer and he writes down and continues to another question, like that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes he was doing like that.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying that firstly he asked you tell who the victims were and then you referred, you said there was a White man there and then he wrote down and then he continued again to ask another question and then you spoke of a White man again and he wrote down, is that what you're saying?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: When I was telling him I only referred to them with their surnames.

MR MAPOMA: You know Mr Jili, even before this paragraph, on paragraph 9(a)(iv) on page 2 of the paginated bundle you say there
"The nature of the offence really was to get a firearm from that White farmer."
You know, my question is to you now, are you saying this mistake was repeated on a number of questions referring to a White farmer now and again?  How do you explain this please?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I was the one who was telling him and he was writing down.  Maybe I didn't referred to him as a Coloured but I refer to him by his surname.

CHAIRPERSON: This person from Johannesburg who assisted you is prison advisor then inferred from the surname that this person was a White person, is that what you're saying?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  So before you went there you say Bongani Zuma organised the attack on that farm, do you recall that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Who was Bongani Zuma?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: You mean his other name?

MR MAPOMA: Not really, what I want to find out did he occupy any position in the organisation?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: He was a marshall.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mapoma.
	Who was the leader of your group when you went to attack the farm, did you have a leader amongst yourselves?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Bongani Zuma and Mduduzi.

ADV SANDI: Was Bongani a leader or a commander to all of you including Mduduzi?  How would you rank the two?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I will say Mduduzi was the leader and then Bongani after Mduduzi.

ADV SANDI: Why do you say that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: The person who usually instructed us was Bongani but then Mduduzi would be leading us after we received instructions from Bongani so we will take instructions from Mduduzi and Mduduzi will take instructions from Bongani.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Sorry Mr Mapoma for interrupting.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
	I suppose there was branch of the ANC in your area, am I correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No there wasn't at that time in our area.

MR MAPOMA: When was it launched if at all it was ever?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It was Siphiso Kabinde.

MR MAPOMA: Siphiso Kabinde stayed at Komagoda, is it not so?  And that is not where you stayed.  Was that the place where you were, where you resided?