Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

MS POSWA: Yes, can I just continue from there?  We have already gone through the fact that you were particularly perturbed by the response from Head Office in Pretoria that you should not arrest and that you have Mr Ndaba now in custody and by your account he is shaking like a leaf, he is totally broken down, but there's two things that surprise me about Mr Ndaba.  You tell him that Gen Nyanda has been arrested, that frightens him.  You come back and you tell him there will be no prosecution, that still gets a negative response from him.  That just, why was he not happy?  In the first place I would understand if he was an informer, that he's annoyed by the lack of prosecution, but if he wasn't and informer, if he was an informer, he should have been excited when you told him that his work has paid off and Gen Nyanda has been arrested.  He can not have reacted in the manner that you describe.  It is just highly inconsistent.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I think the lack of knowledge in the handling of informers and their actions is clear here.  If there was a prosecution and Charles was willing to testify and we had to disclose him, because it was a process which we had to go through, then he would have been back in society without any problems, but we went one step further by proposing that he could establish himself elsewhere so he could be safe and circumstances determined decisions and emotions of people and in hindsight there is much we could have don different, but given that moment, one makes decisions on the emotions of other people, as well as your own.  And that is the only manner in which I can explain that.

MS POSWA: So you are now admitting that you could have treated the situation in a different manner?  You could have used other options and that you went ahead and, you went ahead with the murders of these people, on hindsight, wrongly, that you could have done something else?

H J P BOTHA: In hindsight now one could have done many things differently Chairperson, but it was not done so.

MS POSWA: What in particular?  when you say things could have been done differently, what are you referring to?

H J P BOTHA: My choice of decision could have been different given my knowledge now.  It's easy to say in hindsight, I could have done so and such but I did not do so.

MS POSWA: I want to put it to you like this Mr Botha, you went to Pretoria, you came back, you were advised that these people are not going to be prosecuted, you were by your own admission angered by this and that out of malice and to satisfy your own inner vices and spite, you have admitted that you had been indoctrinated and having all that built up in you, you decided now is the time to eliminate these people.  I don't know what to do with them, I have been frustrated in my attempts, let me eliminate them, would you agree to that?

H J P BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MS POSWA: Let's go to the site of the murders.  You say that when you reached the spot, you pretended to be going to satisfy a need, but let me go back, prior to that you said in the new version, that  you spoke to Charles Ndaba.  Can you please tell the Committee again what you said, what it was you said to them?  As you got into the vehicle or just before you got into the Volkswagen kombi, can you please remind us what you said to Charles Ndaba, according to your testimony, at paragraph 51.

H J P BOTHA: I said that they were, would be transferred to another safe-house in Northern Natal.

MS POSWA: No, that is the first version.  According to the second version, you said something different.  Not 51?  If you will bear with me Mr Chairman, I just want to verify this.  Before you got into the vehicle, or just as you were doing so, you do state that you spoke to - paragraph 65.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 70, Mr Chairman, 70.

MS POSWA: Thank you for your assistance, Mr Visser.  Can you please read that out again?

CHAIRPERSON: It's the same isn't it?

MS POSWA: No, its not the same.  Can you please read it out?

H J P BOTHA: Paragraph 70
"I spoke to Ndaba and Shabalala and said that I would transfer them to another safe-house in Northern Natal.  I wanted to prevent that they would get any ideas that anything would happen to them."

MS POSWA: My mistake.  Let's move on.  If the Chair will bear with me.  You go to this bush with people who are trained terrorists.  You go to them, to a secluded area in the bush and then you make them sit down.  What do you mean by, "they were made to sit down"?

H J P BOTHA: Exactly what I say, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: Couldn't they sit on their own?  Couldn't they just be told "sit down" and they sit?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it mean you asked them to sit down, or were they forced to sit?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, Sgt Wasserman made them sit.  My back was turned to them and I was getting the weapons from the black bag.

MS POSWA: This isn't ...Mr Chairman, because I'd like to know the state of Mr Ndaba and Shabalala at this stage, when they are taken out of this vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Put your question.

MS POSWA: I don't quite understand why you say he made them sit, if you did not see what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it important because there will be the evidence of Wasserman that he made them sit?

MS POSWA: It is important to the condition in which they were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well when Wasserman gives that evidence, you can put it to him.

MS POSWA: Thank you.  So you say you fired at these men from behind?

H J P BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: Were they cuffed?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, they were cuffed.

MS POSWA: What about their feet?

H J P BOTHA: No, their feet were not cuffed.

MS POSWA: So you sit two people by a river, you come from behind and you shoot them in the head.  One man presumably one of your own, and now you want this Committee to forgive you for that and the families, moreover the families, to forgive you having committed this cold-blooded and callous murder by your own admission?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MS POSWA: Mr Botha, I'd like to just go through all this, through this with you.

CHAIRPERSON: We might just take a short adjournment at this stage, until quarter past 11.  We will resume in 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

H J P BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

MS POSWA: Thank you Mr Chair.

MS POSWA: (cont)
	Now you go into great detail about how you tied up the bodies and threw them into the river.  I'd like to know, at that time of night, how were you able to be tying feet and all in the dark, when you were carrying out a clandestine operation which needed you to do things quickly.  How were you able to do that in the dead of night?  Tie the shoes, mix things, mix cement and do all that?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I think there may be some confusion. Nowhere did we mix any cement.  What we did indeed use ...(indistinct) crete pillars which we used as weights.

CHAIRPERSON: The next question was, how was it possible to do all this in the dark?

H J P BOTHA: It was possible, Chairperson, there was enough light for us to see what we were doing.

MS POSWA: From where?

CHAIRPERSON: May I ask you whether it is relevant?  The fact is that that was done.

MS POSWA: How, Mr Chairman, with respect, I'd like to know how they did this because we want to say that, we want to show that this was never done and how it is not possible to my mind, how you do all this in the dark.  How you carry out such intricate tying up and all this in the dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the purpose of the question that as far as you are concerned, that this was not done?

MS POSWA: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the purpose of it?

MS POSWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, put it that way.  Just say that it was not possible for you to do what you did.  Isn't that what you want to say?

MS POSWA: Yes, Mr Chairman.