Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-19

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Mr Mathibela for that very clear account. Just a few questions please, if you don't mind?
 The policemen in the van who you say shot at you, you say you knew the one policeman, Lesebe but the other policeman you did not know?

MR MATHIBELA: Actually this Lesiva Johannes Mahowa and Jali, I did not know them at the time.  I'm only saying that I only know their faces.  Now I know Jali but I didn't know them at the time because it was the first time that I saw them that day.

RUSSELL ALLY: The first time that you saw them that day but you found out their names after the event, from the station commander?

MR MATHIBELA: Yes, that night it was the very first time I saw those police guys, I never met them after that.  I saw Jali when I went to the police station for questioning and I saw him and I realised that this was the guy who was there on that day and the station commander confirmed that he was Jali.

RUSSELL ALLY: Before this incident on the 5th of May, did you have any other contact with the South African Police or the South African Defence Force, were you ever involved in any harassment?

MR MATHIBELA: The way it is, I was the leader of the AN  Youth League.  At the time when we held meetings the police and their soldiers used to chase us and we sometimes had meetings in halls and sometimes we couldn't sleep, and they told us that we must ask for permission from our chiefs who have to give us a letter to go to the police station and from there were supposed to go to the magistrate so that we can get permission.  They would take the letter to Security who was in Marble Hall. They way it was, the police and the chiefs started knowing us at the time because we used to have meetings and we were following the rules so that they shouldn't chase us. Many police knew us because they heard our names at the ...(indistinct) and even at the chief's place.  As we had many meetings they knew who the comrades were at the time.

RUSSELL ALLY: Were you ever detained before this incident?

MR MATHIBELA: Never.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now this night, this 5th of May, it was a Saturday night was it not, were you just out on a social meeting or were you coming from a meeting or going to a meeting?

MR MATHIBELA: On that day, I was from my aunt.  The way things were, it was on a Saturday night on the 5th of May. coming from my aunt Maggie Magashula's place, with my friends and on the way we just met the police and I think this happened because I was wearing an ANC T-shirt and on the right hand side was written SACP. I don't know, maybe they knew me but I didn't know them at the time.

RUSSELL ALLY: There was nothing happening in the township that day, there were no public meetings or anything like that, or no incidents that day?

MR MATHIBELA: That day, during the day, we has a meeting and I think maybe other people went to call the police we had a Saturday Youth League meeting.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now when you say this car was following you and then  the lights were first dim but then they put bright lights on and shone them in your face and you went up to the car, now when you went up to it, was there any confrontation, did you say anything to them, did you threaten them in any way? What happened when you actually approached the car, before they got out and shot?

MR MATHIBELA: We were on the eastern side Sepaku and the car was on the west side, we were on the left hand side of the road and we met each other.  The car turned around and we were walking on the pedestrian walk and they stood there for five minutes.  We were just confused and we thought the people knew us, only realising that this was a police van when they started following us and we could see that it was a police van in the moonlight.  They went to Thabiso Crossroads shop and we followed them because we thought maybe they were looking for something.  My friends went into the shop and Zacharia and I went to the car and the other police guy went into the shop and his colleague was sitting in the car.  When we arrived there I asked why they were following us without asking us anything, and when I was talking to them, he just got out and started shooting.
 He first struck the windscreen, that's all that I can say.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mathibela, I'm going to ask the other Commissioners if they want to ask you anything.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Mathibela, I see in your written statement that you say you are not employed at the moment, that you do not work, is it because you cannot find work or because you are unable to work because of what has happened to you?

MR MATHIBELA: I'm not working at the moment because I always get headaches when I try to work, I cannot work. I can only do simple labour but I sometimes get severe headaches and the other eye is also not very well.  I can work but I cannot do difficult work, I cannot drive because of my eyesight.  I cannot find work.

MEMBER OF PANEL: (not interpreted)

MR MATHIBELA: Yes it's like that.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Were they maintaining that your wife is a member of the Youth League, or was she an active supporter?

MR MATHIBELA: The way things are, we used to have meetings and other people didn't like that and they used to tell the police and SADF, other people used to report whenever we had meetings, so on that day when we had a meeting during the day we saw the police coming to us and they dispersed us.  We ran away and they thought I ran to my home but I didn't go there, so a policeman called Ledwaba went to my home and found my wife taking a bath.  They went into the bathroom and they took her out of the bath.  She covered herself with a towel and they took the towel away and started laughing at her.  That's what I reported to the Commission, that they were humiliating my wife, this Ledwaba.

MEMBER OF PANEL: That is through the lawyers and so on that you got the power, or they had the, the police, you were to be....?    (side A of tape ends here)

MR MATHIBELA: Yes I went to the lawyers to Mr Sad Kachalia, I claimed and I wanted to be compensated because I had an operation, and he told me I was going to be compensated.  Actually I wanted to sue those people, so later on I told them I want to be compensated, that's what I told the lawyers at the time.

MEMBER OF PANEL: There was never a letter agreeing to a settlement?

MR MATHIBELA: No I didn't receive any letter.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Mathibela, if I may just ask you a question or two, we also got a statement as you know from your friend that accompanied you at the time, Zacharia Mashifane, we have been informed that unfortunately he cannot be here today to give his testimony but in his written statement he says, and this is in paragraph seven if you want to check with them later, that he believes that the policeman shot you because of your activity as youth organiser at Sepaku but he also says that the policeman knew you very well and that the two of you at the time knew him very well, because he says, you were arrested several times for your activities in the ANC Youth League. What was your perception really, why did he shoot you? You said in your testimony that you think it's because of the T-shirt that you wore.  Is there perhaps something more to it?