Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know anything about those allegations.  As I've mentioned I would not even deny that because we went out in two separate groups but our group was not involved in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just make sure that I understand your evidence correctly.  After the shooting or the shoot-out I think at block C is it, two person were captured, Mokwena and another person that you don't know?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, the one who died, yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And later that morning a third person was captured.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know his name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The third person who was captured, I do not know his name Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he die?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there is the group which was led by Sugar which brought back three persons.  Buthelezi's son, did he die?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is correct, he died.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Tusanang who we know escaped?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The third person, do you know his name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Which third person Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Sugar's group brought back three persons amongst whom was Buthelezi's son, Tusanang and a third person, who was the third person, do you know him?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know his name Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he die?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Ngobese's child was released.  I don't know whether they all died, I remember one child was released.

CHAIRPERSON: So the third person that came back with Sugar's group was Ngobese's son?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It might be so if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: But you're not sure?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Then at the meeting Buthelezi senior was then captured?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there's the group that ran into Manyala's place which was brought back in a kombi in which there was Vips and two other persons?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the names of the other two person who were captured together Vips?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they die, were they killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, they were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed members of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was rumoured that Buthelezi was a member of the IFP but I am not sure as to whether he was a full member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from Buthelezi?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No-one else.

CHAIRPERSON: Buthelezi the senior though was killed because he had been involved in the killing of Blanko?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And to you knowledge, were any of the persons who were killed persons from the hostels?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know Sir.  I told you already that they came from different places.  I don't know whether among them there was anyone from the hostel but I don't foresee anyone coming from the hostel to the township because of the situation that reigned.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when these persons were killed you believed that they were members of the ANC Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I believed that they were criminals Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not believe that they were members of the ANC Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We did not believe that they members of the ANC Youth League according to what they were doing.

CHAIRPERSON: But did these persons who were killed hold themselves out as members of the ANC Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But insofar as you are concerned you were killing criminals?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: According to their actions yes, they were criminals.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motlokwa, you may return to your seat.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chair, there is a request from my side, there's a request that I would like to direct to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: There is one of my applications that I submitted in 1996, I was given a notice that I will appear before a public hearing and I do not know what happened to that case and I told myself that when I appear before you it will be because of those two applications.  I now request you as the Committee to speed up the process so that I can appear again before the Commission, that is my request.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just before you go, when did you make that application?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: In 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that the Committee Member, Mr Malan has made inquiries in regard to your other application and he has the particulars.  We will take the matter up with the appropriate personnel within the Amnesty Committee and you will be notified in due course as to when that application will be heard.

MR MALAN: Chair, if I may just for the record say, so that there is no misunderstanding, I also got information about the second application last night.  I did make inquiries this morning.  The matter is still being investigated and if I remember correctly it relates to an incident on the trains, is we're speaking about the same one.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And if that is so, that matter is still being investigated.  It may not necessarily be brought to a hearing but you will be advised, it is under investigation.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motlokwa.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.  I call Mr Sonti.

CHAIRPERSON: Zola Nxeba Michael Sonti?

MR MADASA: Yes, number 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Applicant number 5.
	Good afternoon Mr Sonti.
...[problems with channels]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: (sworn states)

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, is it correct that you were a member of the SDU during the time in question?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct Sir.  I am a follower of ANC under the defence unit.

MR MADASA: When did you join the ANC?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I joined the ANC in 1986.

MR MADASA: Firstly, how old are you now?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: 39 years old.

MR MADASA: Are you married?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I am married.

MR MADASA: How far did you go at school?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Up to standard six.

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, can you put that thing down.  Where is your original home?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: My original home is in Sterkspruit in Herschel.

MR MADASA: Are you settled in Johannesburg or are you still a resident in the Transkei?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I'm a permanent resident here in Johannesburg now.

MR MADASA: When did that begin?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I arrived in 1980.

MR MADASA: When you arrived, where did you settle?  Which area?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I settled in Katlehong.

MR MADASA: Where in Katlehong?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: At the hostel in Katlehong.

MR MADASA: Which hostel?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Pwesini Hostel.

MR MADASA: Why did you leave that place?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I left the hostel, first of all I will say, after I brought my wife here I had to go and scout around for a house in the location in Katlehong and leave the hostel.

MR MADASA: So where did you go to settle?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: At 574 Nyala section.  There are so many other places that I lived at.

MR MADASA: When did you go to live in Moleleki?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I went to Moleleki in '1993, the 1st of  June.  I was from Seloma, 506 Seloma B.

MR MADASA: Why did you go to Moleleki?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Moleleki Extension 2 was developed by the ANC organisation for people who did not have homes at the time.

MR MADASA: When you went to Moleleki, were you already a member of the SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: It is correct.