Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR KNOETZE: And also he'll deny, which is also known to you, the fact that the revolution starts tonight, the hard options and the general wants to see bodies, and that they want to make a target out of the ANC/SACP alliance, he'd say that those things were not said?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Again I put it to you, sir, he could have heard what he heard and he can say what he wants to say, what I heard, I said, and he's going to say what he heard.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOETZE

MR DREYER: Mr Diedericks, at the end of your evidence you said that what you did, you did for God, "volk" and "vaderland", is that correct?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: That's not what he said, Chairperson, that will be misleading if he said he did it on behalf of the AWB.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, I was only of opinion to ask a question on that particular portion, but if my learned friend want me to repeat that second part, I've got no problem with that, but my question does not pertain to that.  Maybe you should just allow me to ask my question and then, if need be, he can object.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct).

MR DREYER: As the Court pleases, Mr Chairman.   At the end of your evidence, you said you did it for God, "volk" and "vaderland" and also to support the ideology of the AWB in which you believed?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And I'm saying this to you, as I also said it to the other applicants, I have no reason to believe or to say that you did not believe in it, but the question I want to ask you is, if you look at the phrasing of God, "volk" and "vaderland", then it would seem to me that the conviction  you had with regards to the undesirability of communism was not only because of your political conviction but also because of your religious conviction, if you say you did it for God, "volk" and "vaderland", is that correct?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Let me put it this way, do you know what God, "volk" and "vaderland" stands for?   If you do something, you do it with God's assistance, and you do it for your country and in order to obtain a country.

MR DREYER: I accept that.   All I'm asking you is, and the question is this, if you do not agree with me, then you can disagree with me, I'm only asking you, did you only see communism as a threat for your political convictions, or did you also see communism as a threat to your religious conviction?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I saw it as a threat to everything.

MR DREYER: But that's the statement I make, and then we agree.   Let's continue.   I want to know in the evidence of Mr Badenhorst it became apparent that what had happened before this meeting at the roadhouse there was a party where a whole group of people were together.   Were you there?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No.

MR DREYER: When you completed this application form for amnesty, which is here in front of the committee today, surely you must have realised the serious implications it's going to have?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes.

MR DREYER: At an earlier time I also put it to Kloppers that when you were involved in the criminal procedures, you ran the potential risk to be found guilty and be convicted, is that correct?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That's correct.

MR DREYER: So then it was important to you to put the case in a specific light, as good as you could?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes.

MR DREYER: But now that phase is completed, you were found guilty and you received a specific punishment for that, is that correct?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes.

MR DREYER: Would you say that it's more important to you now or less important to tell the committee the whole truth so that once again you have a chance here to, despite the fact that you were already convicted, that you might receive amnesty and walk out of here as a free man, would you say it's more or less important?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: It's not important for myself, but it's important for my other colleagues to be a free person as I am.

MR DREYER: Now what I'd like to know then is, it was important for you at the stage when you made this application?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is true, yes.

MR DREYER: Now if this is such an important issue, can you think of any reason why this morning and up until now, with regards to each of these applicants, they deemed it necessary to amend the version, to add things to that and to bring about the change to the extent of when an instruction was received, can you think of a reason?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No.

MR DREYER: Because, you see, what is strange to me is that you come and testify today that you went with Kloppers to the vehicle and two pipe shotguns were taken out of the vehicle, is that correct?   Then you told the committee that you were asked, "How does this thing work?", and you said, "No, I don't know how it works", is that correct?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That's correct.

MR DREYER: Is the only time that you've seen these pipe shotguns?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes.

MR DREYER: Did you ever see a pipe shotgun before that time?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No.

MR DREYER: Did you know how it was made?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No.

MR DREYER: You do not know how it works?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No.

MR DREYER: But sir, how can you, together with all the other applicants verbatim, in each of these applications, say in specific paragraphs, even though the number differs, but it appears on all the applications, that those two pipe shotguns were gotten from Japie Oelofse, how can you say that at an amnesty application if you do not know that?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: There was a lot of talk about pipe shotguns, I never physically saw one before, but there was also talk about the fabrication of these things.

MR DREYER: Sir, I put it to you that you're evading my question.   It's a really simple question, if you do not understand it, please tell me, and then I'll repeat it.

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I'm answering your question, I did not know what they looked like, I did not know how they worked, but I heard that where they are produced or where they are fabricated.   I worked a lot on vehicles and that of Mr Oelofse, and I heard talk about this.

MR DREYER: So everything you hear, is that necessarily the truth?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Let me put it this way... (intervention).

MR DREYER: Sir, it's a simple question, is everything you hear the truth?

MR PRINSLOO: Would he be given a chance to answer?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Not everything.

MR DREYER: Now sir, I'm asking you again, this is a very important issue, you are here to come and ask for amnesty, but in the course thereof you made certain allegations which incriminate other people and now I'm asking you once again, say you did not testify to this at all, the fact that you have said that these two pipe shotguns came from Oelofse and, against the background that at the criminal procedures it was testified that it came from Nick Fourie, now you come, you and other applicants, and you include a statement and you say that these two pipe shotguns come from Japie Oelofse.

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: If you were with Japie Oelofse in that prison and he told you what to say in criminal procedures, you would have done it as well, because you were under instruction.   That's what happened to us.

MR DREYER: As far as I understand your cross-questioning, you, I ask the questions.

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, I put it to you, we were with him in prison, he told us, "Say this in the criminal procedures", we must protect him, he's the general, he has to be outside, not on the inside, and that's exactly what happened.