Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on, I'm going to try and find out.

MS FALATI: It irritates my ears.

CHAIRPERSON: Better because you ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: His voice is very soft, I can't pick it up.

CHAIRPERSON: Please use the headphones or the headset, you'll hear him even when he speaks softly, just use the headphones.
 Mr Semenya, if you could also be a little louder please, thank you.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, the witness has indicated that those headphones hurt her ears, perhaps there is another pair on the table which has a padding - if she can perhaps change the headphones.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are, let's try again.

MR SEMENYA: Wasn't it your observation that Mrs Mandela was seeing Katiza for the first time when he was brought on the complaint of sexual assault?

MS FALATI: That I never observed, the only thing I was worried about is the incident, I never observed that they were seeing each other for the first time or not but the issue there was that - my concern was upon Katiza's allegations.

MR SEMENYA: Ma'am you have been reported in the press on a number of occasions that you know of various atrocities where Mrs Madikizela Mandela is involved, can you give us those atrocities please.

MS FALATI: That was for instance, the mine shaft  issue.

MR SEMENYA: So that's one of them?

MS FALATI: Yes, the bodies that are in the mine shaft of which I have this Sir.

MR SEMENYA: But we know that you haven't seen those bodies in the mine shaft.

MS FALATI: They are 100 metres deep Sir, they were thrown 100 metres deep from what I've gathered from John Morgan - 100 metres deep and they should be extracted by the TRC and then we can talk when we have to go there.

MR SEMENYA: John Morgan says he has never worked in a mine.

MS FALATI: Well, I have told you about John Morgan, that he tells you "watch out" and if you don't listen, then he denies everything.

MR SEMENYA: Let me tell you what is my difficulty, you're saying we should not believe John Morgan.

MS FALATI: I'm not saying that, I'm saying that John Morgan always tips you about something else, then the next thing he doesn't want to be involved in that especially when money is not concerned because when he took us with Paul Martin to that mine shaft, he asked Paul Martin

<UNKNOWN>: "How much are you going to give me" and Paul Martin said

<UNKNOWN>: "100.000-00", he said

<UNKNOWN>: "No, I'm going to settle that if you give me 1.500.000-00 - it's 1,5.
 And then he asked me

<UNKNOWN>: "What do you want Miss Falati"? and I said

<UNKNOWN>: "No, I want nothing except even if I'm dead or it happens that I die, let those bodies be extracted and be buried like human beings".   And please - it's real the video at Paul Martin's - in the video with a foreign journalist.

MR SEMENYA: But what you're telling us is John Morgan will lie for money?

MS FALATI: Yes.  I said

<UNKNOWN>: "John Morgan can give information if you give him the money", he can give you vital information if you put money here - he gives you the information.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please, I'm not seeking to restrain you but you will be aware that we have been very expansive, it you will - thank you.

MR SEMENYA: What other atrocities Ma'am?

MS FALATI: The other atrocities - you must know that the train massacres were not started by Inkatha Freedom Party but was started by Mandela Football Club - listen, you are not listening, I said the train massacres were not started by Inkatha Freedom Party but they were started by Mrs Mandela ordering the Mandela Football Club to go and - it was just to go and attack people from the trains, it was just after the -  Matthew Roberts said

<UNKNOWN>: "People of South Africa - Soweto, distance yourselves from Winnie Mandela.
 After that press conference then the comrades were chanting slogans, howling Mrs Mandela's name and that is the time when she ordered to go and deal with the people who were in the trains.  That was just after the story, yes you can laugh if you want.

CHAIRPERSON: I have warned you, I don't want to warn you again, will you please answer the questions that you are asked and refrain from all these extraordinary things that you want to say, please because you are not helping us -  please, please.

MS FALATI: She's busy indicating that I'm mad, she pointing at me that I'm crazy.

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't seen it - I will ask that they don't do that but please try, please leave the apparatus alone.  Please come to my rescue.
 Mr Semenya, when I say - let's just say I'll give you five minutes more.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR SEMENYA: I must put it to you finally that my understanding is you displayed - even at that time, such emotional instability that you'd break in tears whilst scrubbing the floor, did such incidents happen?

MS FALATI: That was at ...[indistinct] yes.

MR SEMENYA: So, you sometimes cry when you scrub the floor.

MS FALATI: No, it was because she actually - you don't know how aggressive she is, you would help her at her place and at times she would go on for days on end not speaking to you.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not know this woman, we will hold you in contempt if you continue in this manner because your conduct is totally unacceptable but we don't want to charge you with contempt because of the behaviour that you're exhibiting.  ...[inaudible] carry on - please.
 Thank you very much, are there any questions from that side?  On that side I'm going to be strict, thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: ...[inaudible] I thought Bishop Verryn.
 I will canvass only one issue, you said that the four people who were abducted from the Manse were taken away on the instructions of Mrs Mandela, is that correct?

MS FALATI: Yes, Sir.

<UNKNOWN>: The explanation for the abduction was that they were victims of sexual abuse who had to be protected.

MS FALATI: Yes, Sir.

<UNKNOWN>: It is that explanation that I would like to examine.

MS FALATI: The explanation was to keep the boys here until Father Paul Verryn comes from wherever he was so that the boys can be asked - Father Paul Verryn can be asked about their allegations.

<UNKNOWN>: They were taken away for their own protection.

MS FALATI: Yes, we wanted to establish ...[intervention]

<UNKNOWN>: Miss Falati, just answer the question.

MS FALATI: Yes, not actually protection ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.

MS FALATI: Maybe I don't understand English.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

<UNKNOWN>: ...[inaudible] protection, correct?

MS FALATI: Correct, Miss Falati?

MS FALATI: They were taken away waiting for Father Paul Verryn until he comes home so that he can ask ...[intervention]

<UNKNOWN>: Why did they have to wait at Mrs Mandela's home rather than at the Manse?

MS FALATI: The thing we feared was that Father Paul Verryn would come and influence them again, that was the reason.

<UNKNOWN>: They were a teenager and three grown men?

MS FALATI: A teenager and?

<UNKNOWN>: Three adult men aged between 20 and 30.

MS FALATI: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: They were always at the Manse, free to come and go as they liked?

MS FALATI: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: At the time of the abduction Father Verryn was not at the Manse but on holiday, correct?

MS FALATI: At the time or the?

<UNKNOWN>: At the time they were taken away from the Manse, Father Verryn was not at the Manse but he was on holiday.

MS FALATI: He was on holiday.

<UNKNOWN>: They were not in any danger at all.

MS FALATI: No, we didn't know when he was going to come back.

<UNKNOWN>: Just answer the question - they were not in danger at all, correct?

MS FALATI: I don't know whether they were not in danger, the only thing we didn't know when Father Paul Verryn was going to come back.

<UNKNOWN>: At the time they were abducted he was away on holiday and they were not in any danger?

MS FALATI: Yes.