Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't know members of APLA but members of the PAC used to go, many of them used to go to that supermarkets as it's one of the supermarkets in the surrounding area in Wesselsbron.

MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp indicated that he would be leading evidence that almost 90% of the shoppers at that supermarket were black people, can you confirm that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: The other 10% I assume would then not be black.  Did you ever see people in uniform at the supermarket when you were shopping?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Sometimes yes, I used to see them during the day and during the night.

MR MALAN: In the supermarket is the question?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: What uniforms are you talking about?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: You'd find that those are white people who would dress in khaki uniform.

MR MALAN: Police uniform?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct, they used to come in their uniform to come and buy.

MR MALAN: The khaki, was that uniforms or khaki clothes?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Those are normal clothes but the way I knew is that they were specific people who used to dress in khaki clothes, that is white people.

MR MALAN: You're not talking of uniforms, like official police uniforms or officers uniforms?  When you talk about khaki uniforms you're talking about khaki clothes?  Am I hearing you correctly, I don't want to lead you on this, I'm asking.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I spoke of normal khaki clothes.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you that this was a busy supermarket, most of the customers were black who lived in the area and there were also some white customers, some in khaki, some policemen, who went there to do their shopping?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Those blacks who used to come there with khaki clothes on are students but many of those who used to clad in khaki clothes are white people.

CHAIRPERSON: White students?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I mean black students.

CHAIRPERSON: They were black students?  And they were there to do their shopping?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct, they used to come there and buy, maybe after school.

CHAIRPERSON: And the whites came to buy as you did?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: This supermarket, was it near a taxi rank?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Please repeat.

ADV SIGODI: Was it near a taxi rank?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know the last time the taxi would leave for the township?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Around 7 o'clock at night.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, may I proceed?

MR MALAN: Sorry, just one last question.
	Do you know what time the supermarket closed?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes.

MR MALAN: What time was that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Around 8 o'clock at night.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I move to paragraph 7, Mr Chairman.
"I further confirm that I later gave the weapons to Paulos Mohlolo Mohape for safekeeping.  There were people coming to stay with me"
Now can you tell the Committee, after how long did you give these weapons to Mohape, after the incident?  How long after the incident did you give them to him?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Around a month.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you tell him about these weapons, anything about them, that maybe they were used, the operation or what?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, I only told him about these weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] told him about?

MR MBANDAZAYO: He only told him about the weapons.
	Now you told him, what did you him about the weapons?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I said to him that he should help me to keep them safe because there were people who would be coming.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How long after the incident at Wesselsbron Supermarket were you arrested?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Approximately four months.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mazete, it transpired during evidence before the court, if I'm not mistaken, that a certain amount was left with you after this incident, after the attack at Wesselsbron Supermarket.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is not true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Also can you confirm, were you paid a certain amount of money for keeping the weapons or for assisting in the whole operation at Wesselsbron Supermarket?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is not correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, did you hear about this evidence - coming to my first point, did you hear anything in court about the evidence that an amount of about R9 000 was left with you after the incident?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, I did hear, I made that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You did what?

MR MBANDAZAYO: You just said now in your evidence that you made that statement and that an amount of R9 000 was left with you ...[intervention]

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also if I'm not mistaken you also said that you were given an amount, you received R50 after it has been counted ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that to us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I was - thank you, Mr Chairman it was myself who mixed it with the - I'm just looking at the court record, I wanted him to answer both of them.
	You have not yet said that, so I wanted to know whether you did make this statement again, that you were given R50 after the amount has been counted?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That was under certain circumstances, that is why I made those statements.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what I want from you, now that you confirmed that this transpired during the court proceedings ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was this during your trial that you said this?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is before I was tried in court, after I was arrested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have just told the Committee just before this, that the only that was left with you were arms and nothing else.  Now can you tell the Committee, why did you now make a statement to say that an amount of R9 000 was left with you and you were also give R50 after the amount was counted?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Because I was tortured by the police.  I spoke about this money so that they would leave me alone.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: It's now 1 o'clock.  Have you had a copy of this statement?

MR STEENKAMP: No Sir, I haven't seen this statement at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it it will be supplied to you in the same way as you have supplied copies?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before that I was reading the court record Mr Chairman.  I indicated that it transpired during the court - it's from the court record Mr Chairman.  I indicated that according to judge there is an amount of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I understood you put to the last witness that nobody gave evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, definitely I put it that way but I said that it transpired during the court proceedings, that this evidence transpired during the court evidence, the court proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] it was being be put by him, the statements made by him?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: You gentlemen can investigate the position.
	Would a quarter to two suit you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, it would suit me.

CHAIRPERSON: A quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: (s.u.o.)

MR STEENKAMP: ...[inaudible] colleague during the break.  Apparently there is no sworn statement that was made or that is available by the applicant.  I'll just continue the questioning of the applicant Mr Chairperson.
	Sir, if I look at your amnesty application, to start there, according to my documents, page 19 or at least it's marked page 19, this is the application of George Thabang Mazete, and to paragraph 9(a) there, I see you're referring to an incident which happened on the 22nd of October 1993.  Can I repeat the question for you?