Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-02

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I agree with you, Mr Chairperson, he has said that.  One, Mr Chairperson, I wouldn't like to go to that argument as to what supporters should know and what they should not know.  I will leave it to the Committee.  But my position is that he has indicated that he was a supporter of the PAC at the time.
	Also Mr Chairperson, one other aspect which has been raised by my learned friend, the question of that if the Committee accepts that he was a supporter then automatically what he did there was part and parcel of his conviction that he wanted to be a member of APLA. 
	Now my point comes to the question of money, how the money was going to used, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I find a difficulty how he would isolate the question of taking of money and being a member of APLA, which is in regard to Mr Masilela and also supporter.  People were in jail, Mr Chairperson, and they wanted money to be used as a means of transport to get to their destination, which is going back to the liberation struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: You are saying that the taking of money was integral part of the escape plan?  To escape physically out of the walls might be futile unless you had cash to hop into a taxi or onto a train and get out of the place?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Exactly, Mr Chairperson.  It's just as if you were saying, let's put the money aside, if they have highjacked a car there as a mode of escaping would you say that it was not part of the struggle to go and fight?
	I might use the words of one of the prominent members, the Vice-Chairman of the Amnesty Committee, Judge Wilson, he once said that when argument came when somebody shot at the policeman and he was running away from being arrested and it was argued that it cannot be said that running away from the policemen and shooting at them, you cannot say that that is  politically motivated.  And he asked a question: A person who is involved in the armed struggle, police are trying to arrest him so that they keep him in jail not to continue with the armed struggle, are you saying that it's not politically motivated to shoot at them so that they cannot arrest him?  
	Now my point is, if somebody escapes from prison, he wants money so that he successfully escapes from prison, would you say that it was not part of the struggle?  That is my argument, Mr Chairperson.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.  Thank you, we'll reserve judgment in this matter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, if I may, inasfar as the victims are concerned ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Victims, yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, I have one person by the name of Anuel: A-N-U-E-L Daniel Mogale: M-O-G-A-L-E.  His address is: No 4 Bunting Road.

CHAIRPERSON: Bunting?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Bunting: B-U-N-T-I-N-G?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That's correct, Mr Chairman, thank you.  No 4 Bunting Road, Baketon, Springs.

CHAIRPERSON: Bakerton?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Baketon in Springs.

CHAIRPERSON: Springs?  And who was he?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This is the policeman who was shot in the robbery in Springs wherein Masilela withdrew but he still remains a victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so he's not part of this incident?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He's not part of this one.

CHAIRPERSON: So he's a Springs victim in the withdrawal matter?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The policeman who was shot in the exchange of fire.  And another one, Mr Chairman
	Simon Buthelezi, still in the same matter, in the robbery in Springs.  Simon Buthelezi of No 29 Mashiyane Street, Qwatema, Springs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mashiyane?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mashiyane: M-A-S-H-I-Y-A-N-E in Qwatema, Springs.

CHAIRPERSON: Qwatema.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Qwatema, Springs.  I won't belabour the record by putting the name of the shop owner because he has since left the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mpshe, for that.  I see now it's five to one and we've come to the end of this application.  Would this be a convenient time now to take the lunch adjournment and then we'll resume with the other matter after lunch?  Thank you.  We will now take the lunch adjournment and we'll resume after lunch with the next matter that is on the roll, that is the matter of Bhani Mangalisekile and another.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS