Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Yes indeed I have a few questions.
	Mr Nesamari you mentioned during your evidence before this Commission that Mr Netshivale was also involved in the interrogation of the detainees at the time, is that correct?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it is true, they were involved that's why.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now at the time you held the rank of constable, is that correct?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: That is true, I was a constable.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And would you dispute that at the time Mr Netshivale was also a constable?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: We were both constables.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay now can you please proceed by describing to us what was Mr Netshivale's involvement in this interrogation at the time?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I cannot really respond to that as to how Mr Netshivale was involved in the interrogation.  Let me say since all of us were junior members we will act under the instructions given to us just to do the job.  I am quite sure that Mr Netshivale deemed it fit to be involved, to participate.  Well I am not too sure if that will satisfy you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay I will accept that for the moment.  There was previously evidence led that the core of the interrogation or the investigation unit consisted of Security policemen by the rank of warrant officer and above.  Do you agree with that?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And there was also evidence that these investigators made use of other lower rank policemen, constables in the Security branch to assist them in the interrogation.  Do you agree with that statement?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Could you just repeat the latter part of the statement.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  There was evidence that these warrant officers who formed the core of the investigating unit also used other Security branch policemen of lower rank to assist them in the interrogation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Won't you just make it easier for him by telling him who has said that.  He might not be able to remember.  Who actually made that....

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I think that evidence was in fact led by Mr Ramaligela and also the second witness which was, ja, Mr Ramaligela was in fact the second witness.  He was, as far as my recollection goes, the one that testified to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and I think also Mr Managa said that although they weren't invited, the junior members or so assisted.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Are you actually asking me whether the other junior members were also invited to come and assist in the interrogation?  I am not really following your question.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I am asking you if you agree or disagree with the previous evidence that was led by the two gentlemen mentioned, that apart from the core which consisted of persons of warrant officer and above, there was other persons who were not really a part of that core who was also used, people of lower ranking, or policemen of lower ranking office.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well if I could make a clear recollection with regard to the investigation of the bombing of the police station it had a very specific investigating team which was involved in the case.  During the time when the detainees were being interrogated or being tortured there were other members in the Security Branch office who very often will just come in the interrogating office.  I am not too sure whether they were invited or not, I don't want to lie, because I was not in possession of inviting anybody because I was in a lower rank.  Maybe they were invited or not invited or voluntarily because they were very inquisitive.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes thank you, we are talking actually about the same thing.  The question is were you part of that very specific investigation team or not?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Who are those you are referring to?

MR VAN RENSBURG: You, were you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg has mentioned that you had that specific investigation team which you agreed with him, consisting of various members, warrant officer and above.  Your co-applicants in here basically plus one further deceased person.  Now he is asking, were you actually officially part of that investigation team or did you just from time-to-time come in and assist whenever you felt like it or ...(intervention)

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I was just part of the investigation unit.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman for the assistance.
	Now would you agree with me, if I put it to you, that Mr Netshivale, he was not part of that as you call "very specific investigation team", he was not part of that team?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I can't dispute that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know or don't you know, was he or wasn't he?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: What I know is that Mr Netshivale took part in the interrogating session.  Whether he was assigned specifically in the investigation team I don't know whether I can say it truthfully.  Maybe the head of the investigation team would be able to explain that whether anyone in particular day was involved.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Did you at any stage, any occasion, witness Mr Netshivale assaulting any of the detainees?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well although I cannot put it clearly as to who but I can remember - I don't know whether with regard to Mr Mahumela and Mr Chikororo, whether Mr Netshivale beat a particular person.  I can remember you know the slapping, using two hands.  I can't make a clear distinction whether it was on Mr Chikororo or Mahumela.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So what you are saying is you can remember Mr Netshivale slapping an unidentified person, or a person who you can't recall his identity, with two hands?  Do I understand your evidence correctly?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: That I what I am explaining now.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was it during that time of the detentions, of the interrogation of the detainees?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. And was, during that specific occasion that you are talking about now, was Mr Netshivale alone with that specific unidentified detainee?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Are you referring specifically to the office, being alone in the office?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, in the office with that specific detainee that you said he assaulted with two hands.  Was he alone in that office with a detainee or were there other police officers with him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well there were other policemen.  I was also around.  I don't know as to whether - well I think, I hope that the late John was around.  I don't know exactly who else was there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: This person, the late John that you are talking about, is that the late John Managa?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it is true - Managa.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that would be the brother of Mr Managa who is here?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: It's the younger brother to the Managa who is around.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions to this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Rensburg.  Ms Mtanga do you have any questions you'd like to put to the witness?

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela would like to know whether you were part of a team of policemen who went to arrest him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I can't remember.  I might have been part.  I can't really recall.

MS MTANGA: Would you dispute his evidence that yourself, Mr Netjenjereni and Mr Chivasa were the three people who went to arrest him from his work, do you dispute this?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I can't dispute that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying Netshivesen or Netshivale?

MS MTANGA: Netjenjereni.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Nerenjene or....

MS MTANGA: Nerenjene.