Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-20

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: (sworn states)

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Vermeulen, you are an applicant for amnesty and in terms of Section 18 of Act 34 of 1995, you have completed an application and elaborated on the particulars thereof, and handed it into the TRC in Cape Town before the prescribed time?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: As the previous applicant, you are an applicant in terms of Section 20(2)(b) of Act 34 of 1995 and you will try to point out to the Committee that you acted bona fide at all instances with the purpose of combatting the onslaught against the government, by the ANC/SACP alliance and at all times, you acted with a political motive, is that correct?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And at all times, you acted with a political motive, is that correct?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Your evidence, and that of the previous applicant goes hand in hand, you followed the same modus operandi, you received an instruction to collect weapons, to prepare the weapons, to pack them into plastic bags and to deliver them in East London, is that correct?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times the previous applicant was with you?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And then also Eugene de Kock?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you also receive a direct instruction from Mr Eugene de Kock?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And did you regard it as a legal, or that is the wrong word, did you see it as a regular instruction from Mr De Kock?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And what was your belief, did you believe that this had the approval of the higher echelons?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes, I did Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And in the light of the type of onslaught, you thought that it had to come from a higher authority?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened to you if you did not carry out the order from Eugene de Kock?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: I would have been transferred from the Unit and my career would not be the best for the rest of the time that I spent, my time in the Police Force.

MR CORNELIUS: And you would have broken the Police Force Code - was there a danger that you could be injured bodily?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: When you acted as you did, did you believe that you acted to the advantage of the Republic?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any personal reward or were any promises made to you or any proposals that you would receive financial reward after the actions?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you also receive an amount of R20000 for S&T purposes?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And as my learned colleague indicated, to fill petrol into your vehicles?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes, I did Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any feelings of malice towards Gen Holomisa?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: No, I did not Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And you apply for amnesty for conspiracy in and outside the Republic, to commit public violence and conspiracy to murder and any other offences with regard to the Weapons' Act?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Mention was made of a piece of land in the Transkei, what can you tell us about that?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: I believe it was said in a joking manner, and it was never mentioned.

MR CORNELIUS: This mention of the piece of land, was it mentioned before the delivery of the weapons, or after the weapons were delivered?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: After the weapons were delivered.

MR CORNELIUS: So this mention of the land did not play any part when you delivered the weapons?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: No, it did not.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any piece of land from anybody?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: No Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any other form of reward or promises to perform your daily tasks?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: No Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What was your rank at that stage when you were involved with the delivery of the weapons?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: I was a Warrant Officer.

MR CORNELIUS: And how long did you know Mr Eugene de Kock?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: Very long Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What was your relationship with him?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: We were very good friends.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.   Mr Lamey, do you have any questions?

MR LAMEY: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Vermeulen, Mr De Kock's maintenance of discipline amongst his subordinates, how was his discipline?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: He was very strict, but he was a just man.

MR HATTINGH: Would he not take any disciplinary steps towards you because you were friends?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: No Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Muller?

MR MULLER: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MULLER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no re-examination Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Vermeulen, if this thing about people getting plots for participation, if the coup had been successful in the Transkei, why did you not say in your affidavit, that this was just a joke?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: At that time it just came up into my mind, I didn't think it was very important, but I did mention it Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Are there any other jokes that were said in the course of conversations?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: Not that I can remember of, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Is this the only, should one understand you to say that this is the only joke that was made or said during the time you were talking amongst yourselves?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That I can remember of, yes, sir.

ADV SANDI: And indeed, in the end, people were in fact given plots.  What do you think about that?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: That was at a very later stage, and that didn't come to me as any surprise.

ADV SANDI: Your relationship with Colonel De Kock, would you say it was one of close friendship, how would you describe it?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: As I said, he was my Commanding Officer, and we had a good relationship after hours and during working hours, we had a formal relationship, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Vermeulen, unfortunately my copy is not a very good copy because it is out of alignment, but if I look at paragraph 54 of your affidavit, that appears on page 37, I don't know if yours is also out of alignment, but it says
"... where De Kock had given me money, it is difficult to connect these incidents.  I accepted that this was reward for what we had done, and I thought it was legal."
	What did you mean by that, could you just explain that?

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: Sometimes Mr De Kock did give some remuneration.

CHAIRPERSON: You may speak Afrikaans.

NICHOLAAS VERMEULEN: He gave it to everybody, it was not just for one of us.  This was normal practice as what the blacks received money and the whites also received money who worked on the Unit.