Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

HASSAN MALL: That's the question being put.  Do you know whether that night the occurrence book was not written up by the deceased, whose duty it was to do so?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, I have never said the occurrence book, seized after that date or later maybe, I have got no information or maybe any idea about it.

ADV PRINSLOO: And likewise, Mr Mkoana, you cannot comment with regard to the page that was removed from the occurrence book.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That is why I have already said that I heard the story of the torn-off page during the time of the trial or maybe even yesterday. I heard it too.  But I have never went personally to go and check and see if maybe the pages have been torn off. I just say that.

ADV PRINSLOO: And when the deceased was in the office, when you arrived on duty, is it correct that his clothes, his uniform clothes were in the plastic bag in the office. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now at Fidelity Guards, there was a Mr Roos who was the - if I may call it that - the branch commander.  Do you remember him?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And there was also Mr Fernandes, the shop steward?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, he did came to the office.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: Mr who?

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Fernandes, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Fernandes, thank you.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now Samuel Kanaga, he belonged to the union. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: So he was at liberty to report to Mr Fernandes ... (intervention).

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Can I just say something?  In that time when Mr Roos, Mr Gerber and Fernandes, I am sorry to say that, it seems they were totally maybe brain-washed or maybe they were under the influence of - they just wanted to see how is he maybe going to be treated or what, because even Fernandes, I mean this Fernandes, he has never been interested. He has never even been interested to say that can he maybe call Samuel Kanaga maybe one side to maybe - he never gave Samuel Kanaga that opportunity, so that he must explain or maybe to represent the guy or maybe say that, since you are going to take that guy to the police station, can I go with him.  He was never interested.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana, the question is, the deceased would have been at liberty to report to Mr Fernandes or Mr Roos. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's why I have already said that they were never interested.  The manner in which they have entered the office, I was there. They were never interested. Even till today, they are still, if I look at them, I still blame them, because if they did intervene, the deceased was not supposed to be dead by today.

JUDGE WILSON: You appeared in the trial, didn't you?

ADV PRINSLOO: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: And you know what the Judge said about Mr Fernandes, about his failure to speak to the deceased or to make any enquiries.

ADV PRINSLOO: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: It appears in the judgment.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, with respect ...

JUDGE WILSON: Does that not appear in the judgment?

ADV PRINSLOO: It does so appear, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: What I am putting to the witness, Mr Chairman, is that the deceased would have had the opportunity at court.

JUDGE WILSON: But the Judge complained about the fact that Mr Fernandes did not give him the opportunity, didn't he?  He said he made no effort to speak to the deceased.  That appears clearly and you must have heard the Judge saying it.

ADV PRINSLOO: That's correct, I heard it, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana, at the time, did you see Mr Oosthuisen also in the office that morning?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: He entered at the reception, not in Mr Gerber's office, the reception office which is just adjacent next to the, Mr Gerber's office.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now Mr Oosthuisen, did he at any stage assault the deceased in the office?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, I didn't see him doing that.

ADV PRINSLOO: And I ask for a moment's indulgence, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  In addition, Mr Chairman, you said the deceased screamed in the office?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Exactly, he was crying very loud.  That's why they decided to take him, to take him out, so that others, other staff members of Fidelity Guards must not hear or see him.

ADV PRINSLOO: But if he screamed, the people in the building would have heard him screaming?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's why I have already said, he knew that once - by the time he started screaming, there was no people in the passage, because remember Mr Gerber's office is sitting right at the corner.  No, the only person that could hear that it, if maybe he was walking past Mr Gerber's office, but Mr Gerber's office is not right at the centre, it was at the corner.  Before you can go into Mr Gerber's office, you have got to go to the main reception area. So he sometimes it is going to be difficult.

ADV PRINSLOO: But is it possible that people would have heard him screaming?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, not easy.

ADV PRINSLOO: Not easily?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, because there is also a door before you can go to the reception, which means it is two doors.  If maybe by that time, because I didn't see if they did, maybe the reception door was closed.  If that reception door was closed, and Mr Gerber's door was closed, it was going to be very much difficult for anybody to hear that, since there is also some cars driving past the back, the main street at the back.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana, if it was impossible to assault him inside the building, why was it necessary to take him out?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I beg your pardon?

ADV PRINSLOO: If it was possible to assault him inside the building, without anyone hearing it, why was it then necessary to take him out of the building?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: It seems they ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He was not in the office (indistinct).

ADV PRINSLOO: I respectfully submit, Mr Chairman, at that stage there was no such intention at that stage, as the evidence developed, to a later stage.

HASSAN MALL: There may have been many reasons why they decided to leave at that stage.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Can I just answer on that. I don't think maybe they are going to enjoy it maybe assaulting him and even to carrying him and even maybe having some drunk at the office, because maybe it was going to happen during the course of the day. Other members maybe from the head office, they were going to make a turn there by the office and then they are going to see that, and it was after that it was going to be very much difficult for them to take him out of the building, maybe to whatever they wanted to do, to take him to.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana - I beg your pardon.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mkoana, you must be careful not to go on too much to express your opinions to us about what you think the people thought, because it is not going to help us a lot.  Try as far as possible to restrict yourself to the facts.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Thank you.  Thanks.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mkoana, at that stage you already had the opportunity to report to either the union or anyone else, or Mr McFarlane, that Mr Gerber assaulted the deceased.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Can you just specify which time, Sir?

ADV PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Can you just specify what time? The day of the torture or maybe before he was taken out?

ADV PRINSLOO: Immediately after the assault, before you went out, why did you not report Mr Gerber's conduct, to his superiors?