Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

LUVUYO KULMAN: When he goes into the village, there was a siren that he would use.
	We had already concluded that as he goes into the village, we would start with the operation.  We would hear the siren when he goes into the village.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I understand that, but that is if you lived in the village.  You came from Umtata in Thandekulo's vehicle.  By the time you arrived, the truck was there already.  This is what I am trying to understand.
	How did you know the truck would be there on that day, because you only arrived after the truck had parked, as I understood your evidence.  If I am wrong, please correct me?

LUVUYO KULMAN: We used that route as well, the route that he used, because there were other comrades with bases there.
	We used that route every day in the morning and in the evening.  Sometimes we would have stuff to deliver in Umtata, sometimes in Nqobo, that was our normal road that we used each day.

UNKNOWN: I really must, even if it is the only thing you clarify for me, I would stay with this one issue.  This incident happened in the afternoon.  You arrived after the truck had arrived.
	You still have not explained to me how you knew the truck would be there at that time, because you told your comrade, Thandekulo that the target is ready, I read that somewhere.
	Thandekulo took you over on, I am sure I had a note somewhere where you said the target is ready, you can be taken there, and this is what I needed to reconcile, how did you know the target would be there?
	If you just clear that one up for me, in the afternoon of Friday, where did you see him earlier, how did you know that at about whatever time in the afternoon, he would be at this particular village, that is all I want you to clear for me.

LUVUYO KULMAN: Everything depended on Thandekulo.  We also depended on him.
	How he concluded that, he could answer that question.  I don't know how he came to that conclusion, it would be difficult for me to answer that.

UNKNOWN: Now, the other question relating to your reconnoitring, the checking things out, had you noticed that Donnie had accompanied her father on Wednesday and Thursday, had you seen her in the truck as you were checking things out?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Perhaps is it my not taking note of things, because every time I saw him, he was on his own.
	I don't want to confirm and say that.

UNKNOWN: And did you know that he had injured his left foot so he was not able to walk properly?

LUVUYO KULMAN: No, I didn't know.

UNKNOWN: You hadn't noticed this when you were investigating this thing before Friday?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Who was injured, Donnie?

UNKNOWN: The father, Mike Meyers.

LUVUYO KULMAN: No, I did not take note of that.  Another thing is that I can't remember things clearly.  I also didn't know that I would be asked each detail and come here.  I did not commit to memory each and every thing that I was doing.

UNKNOWN: Then finally again on the planning, what was the plan in relation to Mike Meyers, you were going to kidnap him and put him where in the truck, I mean what exactly was the plan, this was just the planning, what did you discuss?  What were you going to do with this man once you got him?

LUVUYO KULMAN: The order that I was given was to kidnap him.  Then I was going to surrender him to Thandekulo.  Further orders would then follow from there.

CHAIRPERSON: But how were you going to take him?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I was going to point him with a gun.  Like (indistinct) was going to drive, we were going to get to Mbashi and then we were going to get further orders from there.

UNKNOWN: As part of the planning, did you have tape to tie his mouth or a rope to tie his hands, that planning that I am asking about, because Thandekulo is not here to take us through the planning, but you are fortunately.

LUVUYO KULMAN: We had, are you asking if we had something to put into his mouth so that he does not make a noise?

UNKNOWN: I am asking if you had anything in terms of tying him up physically as you transported him?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Obviously there would be something there to use so that he doesn't make a noise, however, that depended on Thandekulo.
	Thandekulo knew what he was going to do.

UNKNOWN: Maybe you misunderstand me.  I am talking about as you approached the vehicle, you had  planned and according to that plan, and I am just speculating here please, you might have had rope to tie Meyers, you might have had tape to close his mouth.  I am just speculating.
	These are just items I am thinking of.  What was the plan, how were you going to keep him quiet between the village and the (indistinct)

LUVUYO KULMAN: He was going to keep quiet because we had guns, we were armed.  We were just going to tell him as we were pointing the gun, he must keep quiet.   He was going to keep quiet.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chair, thank you.

ADV SANDI: Just one question Mr Kulman concerning Donnie.  You did not know the political affiliation of Donnie, but you believed that her father was a member of the AWB.
	Now, from what you have told us, would it be correct to infer from your evidence that perhaps the reason why Donnie was killed, was because you believed that her father was a member of the AWB?  Would it be fair for you to make that inference?

LUVUYO KULMAN: The reason for Donnie being killed, is that what you want?

ADV SANDI: Yes.

LUVUYO KULMAN: I am going to repeat this.  First of all everybody knows that APLA waged war against the oppressors, and we recognised the oppressors as being Boers.
	Donnie and the father, as APLA cadres, we see no difference.  You can't differentiate between a big snake and a small snake, they are both poisonous.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, you have answered me.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can differentiate between a poisonous and a non-poisonous snake, can't you?

LUVUYO KULMAN: It is a snake, whether it is poisonous Mamba, these are all snakes, you call them snakes.

MR LAX: What threat does a non-poisonous snake hold for you?  It is not customary just to kill snakes, every single snake you see?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I am defining, I am making an analogy that a big snake and a small snake, to me, those are the same things.

MR LAX: Yes, but we are correcting your analogy by pointing out that there are dangerous snakes and harmless snakes.
	A small, harmless snake is the same as a big harmless snake.  It wasn't APLA policy to kill everybody, we have heard from your Commanders.  It was APLA policy to kill oppressors.  It was APLA policy to kill people who in some way were associated with the repressive apartheid regime.

LUVUYO KULMAN: Who are then the oppressors?

MR LAX: Comrade, you know very well who the oppressors are, you had lots of political education.  Let's not mess around here.

LUVUYO KULMAN: This is why I don't see a difference between a big snake and a small snake, because to me they are the same.  The apartheid system would not exist if it was not supported by the Boers.
	It was able to exist and resist for such a long time because the people encouraged the apartheid system.

MR LAX: Now, yesterday in your evidence you told us two different things about how Donnie was in the vehicle.
	I want you just to try and explain this for us.  When you first gave your evidence, you told us that after you had shot her, she was laying down in the vehicle.  Do you remember you told us that?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Who was laying on the floor of the car?

MR LAX: Who did you shoot that would have been laying down on the car, just answer my question.

LUVUYO KULMAN: This is what happened.  I shot Donnie, I don't remember saying that immediately after I had gotten her, she was laying on the floor of the car, but I do remember that I said that when we were on the way, she was then laying on the floor of the car.