Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We went there on foot because it's near.

MR RATHMAN: Were there any vehicles driving around that you hear that night?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: You mean driven by Mr Mtolo?

MR RATHMAN: By anybody, on those roads there.  Did you see any vehicles?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: No we didn't come across cars.  We made sure that we have to jump the road and enter the other side.  We were not travelling along the road because we just crossed the road so we didn't meet cars on the way.

MR RATHMAN: How big was the group of you that went from Mtolo's to Mbongwe's house?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We were over 60 in number, we were many.

MR RATHMAN: Had it been decided to kill any particular people on that night?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: It wasn't decided, but it was an instant kind of an attack so we couldn't decide as to who we shall attack from the beginning.  It just happened simultaneously or momentarily so when we were shown as to who they were we just continued to attack.  If he happened to have indicated or show us another place we could have just run and attacked the place.

MR RATHMAN: You weren't directed or you didn't perhaps agree to kill any particular people, aim for any particular people?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: People we wanted to kill were ANC members, people we were fighting against, the people who were attacking us, and those were male members of the ANC.

MR RATHMAN: You see one of the victims had, I believe, something like 30 stab wounds in him.  Could you explain how such a thing could happen in your attack?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: As I have already explained it's difficult to explain.  I am saying that we are competing, each of us when we see a person we are competing to attack that particular person.  Sometimes you couldn't even manage to get near the person to strike or hit and sometimes you were able to be near to be able to attack, so therefore I can't explain.

MR RATHMAN: Mr Chairman I think it's about quarter past 11, I don't know if it will be a convenient time to adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct)

MR RATHMAN: The house of Mzwandile Bongwa that you attacked, can you describe this house?  Was it a block house or mud house, thatched, whatever?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: It looks like a flat.

MR RATHMAN: Was it made of blocks or of mud?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I won't know because I didn't get a chance to be near the house.

MR RATHMAN: Did you not go into that house?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We entered the house because there were people inside.

MR RATHMAN: Now you say that none of your leaders were present on that day, how far was the place where you met after the whistle blew from the house of your Chief Nzimande?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Which Chief.

MR RATHMAN: What was the name of your Chief, sorry, could you tell me, your Chief?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: It was Dlamini.

MR RATHMAN: From Chief Dlamini, sorry.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Can I just briefly explain.  The Chief in charge at the moment is Dlamini.  At that time it was Chief Nzwandile Majosi. I think this will explain the whole....

MR RATHMAN: Chief Majosi from Ndaleni, is that right?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: Now you say the attack went on until one o'clock, do you mean one o'clock in the morning, that very late at night?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I am not sure exactly if it was one.  I am just think, or suspect it was one, but it was after 12, I didn't say it was exactly one, I said it was somewhere about one o'clock.

MR RATHMAN: Now was that when you got home or when you stopped attacking people?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: As we went to different places, we went to different places, that's what I am trying to say.

MR RATHMAN: And what I want to know is how long did this whole operation take, this whole attack in which you were involved?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I will not know the exact time because we were not writing anything down as to the particulars concerning time.

MR RATHMAN: Now you say that none of your political leaders were involved in this?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes I do repeat it's true.  There wasn't any leader who was involved at the time.

MR RATHMAN: And yet you are applying for amnesty because you say this was a political matter?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes, I think so.

MR RATHMAN: Was it perhaps not just a case of personal revenge then?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I would say it's both because as I've explained people in the ANC and IFP people were fighting in that area, they attacked us and we had to attack them again.  It was a confused situation and we were fighting.  The organisations were fighting and even the younger children, if you can ask them they know that we were fighting.

MR RATHMAN: Thank you Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RATHMAN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Gumbi as you have already testified that there were no instructions given to you by the leaders, can you now tell as to whether you acted on behalf of the IFP?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: This question confuses me.  I would say I did it because I was an IFP member.

CHAIRPERSON: I recollect you saying a short time ago, well let me get my note, you said you didn't have time to consider contacting your leaders.  You knew that your leaders were not going to attack, they would try to cool you down, is that so?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes I think so. They were not going to just say go and attack.  Our leader wasn't going to give us such an instruction.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So that would mean that you did what you did out of your own volition and not to represent or to further the interests of IFP?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: It's not the IFP policies or the intention that we should attack or fire back, it was something that happened and we see that the only thing we do is we have to fight back and we couldn't contact our leaders to tell us what to do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you saying that it is not the policy of IFP to fight back?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't know that it is our policy or principle that we should pay a revenge if we are attacked, however it was up to us, the followers, to see what to do if we face such an incident.  If we thought it was necessary to fight back we had to fight back but I won't say it was the organisation's policy to pay revenge.  However I might not know whether it was.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How long had you been a member of the IFP, on the day of the incident?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Things started to intensify during 1991 as we were fighting in my area it was an IFP area, when I started getting seriously involved it was 1991 because people were fighting all over the area.  I can't explain the IFP policies.  All I knew is that I grew out of the IFP wing as a Zulu person and all I knew that we used to follow the Zulu traditions within the IFP.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Gumbi I will repeat my question.  On the day of the attack how long had you been a member of the IFP, that's all that I want to know?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I was already an IFP member.  I can't remember the exact date.  Even before things started our parents were IFP members.  I started in 1991.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you in the past attend any meeting or gathering of the IFP?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes during 1991.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you hold any position in the leadership?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: No I didn't hold any position, I was just a follower.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now when you joined in the attack and killed the people that were killed and injured, what actually did you seek to achieve?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Truly I would say I won't be able to explain as to what we wanted to achieve, but I would say that we were doing what we did as a way of paying revenge.  We didn't have any specific thing that we wanted to achieve because we were just protecting ourselves as we were injured.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So if I understand you well by saying that you didn't seek to achieve anything but to protect yourself.   There was no political change that you envisaged in your attack, am I correct?