Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: When I went outside Blanko's house was surrounded and they shot.  I had a 9mm gun with me, the AK47 rifle was left behind with Vusi Mthembu because they were guarding Bulelwa's corpse.  I then thought I had to protect comrade Blanko.  I ran to Michael Sonti and I told him that Blanko is attacked.  	Myself and Michael Sonti went to a place where Bulelwa's body was lying and the comrades were not there, they left for Blanko's house because they hid them and they burnt him while he was inside the house.  When we arrived there he was already dead, he had been burnt down with the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say yourself and Michael Sonti went to the spot where you had left the body of Bulelwa, is that right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: This is where there were people guarding the corpse with an AK47?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Did you then from that spot proceed to Blanko's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were you in the group now, at that stage?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I've already indicated that it was myself and Sonti.  We found the rest at Blanko's place trying to put out the fire.

MR MALAN: Can you just orientate me, did you say Bulelwa's body was in F section?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And where was your house and Blanko's house, which section?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: E section.

MR MALAN: I take it they're bordering each other?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was quite a distance but they were close.  The distance and where Bulelwa was lying is quite a distance Sir.

MR MALAN: How long did it take you to get there and back?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We might have taken 10 minutes because we were running.

MR MADASA: You say at Blanko's house you found other comrades who were there?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We found some of the applicants and some of his comrades who were helping with the fire.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us the names of the persons that you found at Blanko's place?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Vusi, Vusi Mthembu, Michael Nkomo and the others.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean: "and the others"?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Some of the applicants, those who are sitting at the back, myself and Michael arrived later.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want you to do is give us the names of the persons that you found there.  You've told us Vusi Mthembu was there, Michael Nkomo was there, who else was there?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sugar was present, Shongwe was present, Lefu was present.

MR MADASA: Is Lefu here?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, he is present here.

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible both English and Floor tapes]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Stlwetla was present, I do not know his real name.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the person's name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: S-T-L-W-E-T-L-A.

MR MADASA: Is he here?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He is here Sir.

MR MADASA: Is he Phillimon Lupindo?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It might be him Sir, I only knew him with his nickname.  Yes, that's him Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: ...[No English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR MADASA: Is there any other one who is here but you don't know his name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was difficult to know each other by names, that is why we used combat names.

MR MADASA: I understand that ...[inaudible]  Can you point the other ones who are here but you don't know their names?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, give us the combat names, it doesn't matter.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I knew them by names, not their real names.  I know them by the names we used to call each other by.

MR MADASA: Mr Chair says use that name to identify them now.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Rooivark was there, that's him.

MR MADASA: That's Michael Armoed Mr Chair, number one.
	Who else?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Moshe was there.

MR MADASA: Who else?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Those are the people I found at the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MADASA: Yes, continue, then what happened?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After the fire was extinguished and order was taken out that they should be fetched, they should be attacked.  We went to attack them the same night.

CHAIRPERSON: So the fire was extinguished.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The attackers had already left.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: A decision was then taken to attack the attackers.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, who first came up with the decision that they must be attacked?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That decision was taken by Sugar.

MR MADASA: Who is Sugar, what authority did he have at that time to issue orders?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He had powers, he was acting like vice. If Ntjebe wasn't present, he was looking after the SDU.

MR MADASA: Did other people besides the SDU members which you have pointed out, gather outside Blanko's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Many people came Sir.

MR MADASA: From where?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Most of them were residents of block E and F.

MR MADASA: How was this order that you referred to issued?  Did he shout out or did he call a meeting, how was it issued, to attack Blanko's assailants?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After the fire was extinguished, then we were ordered to go and attack those people and if a shootout ensues, fine.   We went to them through C block, then we met them, then we fought until the early hours of the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Just take us back to the place where Blanko's house was.  Who first - I understand that Sugar suggested that or came with the idea that the persons who  had attacked Blanko must be attacked, is that
right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did he say this?  Was there any discussion as to what was to happen to these people or did he simply say: "We must go, let's go and get these killers"?  How did he say this?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We did not sit down and plan this thing, it happened spontaneously because of that situation.

CHAIRPERSON: But did someone say: "Let's go and attack"?  Was there someone who said that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sugar said: "Those people must be attacked", Sugar took out that order.

CHAIRPERSON: And everyone agreed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, we went out hunting them.  Ntjebe Ndondolo was not present, that is why Sugar ordered us to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Sugar the highest SDU official present at the time?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Some were present Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there someone who occupied a more senior position than Sugar at the time when you were outside Blanko's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, the secretary of the SDU, and other members of the committee were present.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but in terms of people who could issue the orders of the crime that was issued on that day, was he the only person who could issue the order who was present there?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: There were no other senior - there were no senior people to issue out orders except Sugar.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Now after the order ...[End of tape 2B - No follow-on sound]
	Now during the shooting you managed to subdue them and those you did subdue you caught and the others fled?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: What did you do with those that you caught?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We left with those we caught, we took them back to the community.  We actually tightened their hands, we kept them for the next day.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you catch?  Give us names.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, one of them died the same day, the other one is still alive.  His surname is Mokwena, I just forgot his name.

MR MADASA: How many did you catch?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We caught two.