Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

MR MALAN: Sorry Ms Thabethe, but was the evidence not that they were counselled by this group of people, the comrades, who arrived in the kombi, not simply to lash people because they would be able to mobilise and take revenge, and that they should be killed?  Wasn't that his evidence?  And that they acted upon that counsel?

MS THABETHE: That was the evidence Member of the Committee, but what I am asking is what were the grounds for reaching such a decision?

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you want to rephrase your question because as it stands, it is going to elicit the same kind of evidence which has already been adduced before this Committee that the reason why they killed Ms Dudu Ngcobo was because of the advice given by the groups of comrades from Amadiqwe.  If you put your question in that way, that is the evidence that we will get, which evidence we already have, unless obviously you want to find out why.

MS THABETHE: I am indebted to you Members of the Committee, maybe I should go back a bit on my instructions.  Mr Cele, let me start here with regard to the people of Amadiqwe, my instructions are that the people of Amadiqwe were fetched by one of your people to come into your area, what is your comment to that?

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the people, are you still referring to the same people that we know from the evidence led before us, as comrades?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we should stick to the word comrades, so that we don't get confused.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, I will repeat my question.   According to my instruction, the comrades who eventually advised you to kill Dudu Ngcobo, were actually fetched by one of your people, I am just looking for his name here, Madam Chair, if you could bear with me,  by Qwazi, who is your half-brother.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I would deny that because when all of this occurred Qwazi was with me.

MS THABETHE: My instructions further are that Qwazi went to fetch the comrades from Amadiqwe, using taxi's, and he was actually seen coming back with the comrades in two taxi's and they also had containers filled with petrol.  Do you have any comment on that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That is not correct.

MS THABETHE: My next question is, when you met the comrades according to your evidence, you met the comrades, isn't it, after you had given lashes to the victims, exactly what did you tell the comrades about what had taken place?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I told them everything that had happened.

MS THABETHE: The fact that you were suspected of killing Martin and the fact that you had taken the people from Amos Cele's house to question them about that, would I be correct to say that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: What they wanted to know was the purpose of these persons' presence.

MS THABETHE: Yes, what I am asking you is, did you tell them it is because they suspected you of killing Martin Ngcobo and as a result, you decided to question them and lashes were given out or lashes were, they were beaten?  Is that what you explained to the comrades?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Through you Chairperson, ...

MS THABETHE: And then after explaining this, they said no, these people should be killed?

MR MALAN: Ms Thabethe, just a second, you are losing us because the Interpreter started to give the answer after your first question, when what came to us is what they wanted to know and then you kept on talking, so I would appreciate it if you would follow the interpretation in order to allow us to follow what is going on.  May I get back to the original question there where Ms Thabethe interrupted the answers through not listening to the interpretation.  You were asked whether you told these comrades everything about the suspicion that these people had, that you killed Martin, the questioning around  what followed after the accusation of you being involved in Martin's death?  Did you tell all of this to the comrades?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Then you started to say what they wanted to know, what did the comrades then want to know from you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They wanted to know what decisions were taken with regards to these people.

MR MALAN: Sorry for interrupting now, but didn't you tell them when you told them that they came there, they called on you for Martin's arm, they were suspicious that you were responsible for Martin's death, that you questioned the people about their political affiliation, didn't you tell them about having sjamboked them?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I did inform them.

MR MALAN: So why did they ask again about the decision?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They questioned me, they asked me as we were talking, as we were discussing and they were not satisfied with the decision or with the steps that were taken against these people.

MR MALAN: What was their interest and why could they be satisfied or not satisfied if they were not from your area?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They had just come because we were all comrades.  At that time there was co-operation and we used to assist one another in whatever way.

MR MALAN: No please, didn't you tell us earlier that at the time of this incident, there was no co-operation yet?  That was your evidence and you said specifically that came later.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Through you Chairperson,  in the evidence in chief, it was made clear by the applicant that the co-operation had already started before the incidents in Manyaseni area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MALAN: My apology, I will check my notes.

CHAIRPERSON: I recall that.  I am a little disturbed by your response to questions being put to you from the bench.  I had earlier on understood the gist of your evidence in relation to the comrades from Amadiqwe to have been that they knew already about what was happening by the time they came to that place?  I recall this because I think I questioned you on this and because I was questioning you, I was not taking notes.  But this is what I seem to recall having asked you how they knew about this whole incident and you said you don't know how they knew, somebody must have told them, but by the time they reached where you were, they already were abreast with the situation.  I am now a little troubled by your now recent evidence which seems to suggest that they were actually brought up to speed by the information that you furnished to them.  Do you get my problem?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you comment on the problem I have?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: As I explained before, I did not know who had fetched them or how they came to this area but the moment that they arrived, it became clear that they did have knowledge of what was going on, but they wanted to know from us just what was going on at the time and what we were doing about it.  That was when they disapproved of our decision to just sjambok and let these people go, because they felt that it was wrong that they had come from so far a place to attack us and then we just let them go.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  With regard to the killing of Amos Cele ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you leave, are you leaving this point because if you are, I would like to interpose again, just put one question of clarity which actually is a follow up from what the Member of my Committee has put to you.  What exact authority was enjoyed by the comrades of Amadiqwe on the activities of your structure?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They did not have any authority, but as comrades involved in different areas, we were at different levels.  Some people were more experienced than others.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it usual for your structure to not just give advice, but to give overriding decisions in other structures outside your area?  Like would you have come with the same decision on issues affecting the comrades at Amadiqwe?