Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Today we'll be starting with the hearing of the applications of Messrs Motlokoa, Mosia, Mofokeng, Sera and Mohomane.
	Before we start I'd like to just introduce the panel to you.  On my right is Doctor Tsotsi, he is an attorney and comes from Port Elizabeth.  On my left is Mr Sibanyoni, he is also an attorney and comes from Pretoria.  I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court there.
	I ask the legal representatives please to just place themselves on record.

MR MHLABA: I am Booker Mhlaba, I'm appearing on behalf of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba.

MR SESELE: I am Lesane Sesele, I'm appearing on behalf of the Mosebi family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sesele.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Before we proceed with the applications of the applicants scheduled for today, I have Mr Chairman, Mr Mokoena who was a co-applicant in the application which was heard yesterday, and for some reasons he was not brought to the hearings.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right.  Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. What is the position there with that matter?

MR MHLABA: The position with Mr Mokoena, he wants to formally withdraw his application for amnesty.  The basis for his withdrawal is that he did not commit the act at all, he denies involvement in the crime.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Mhlaba.  It is noted that Mr Mokoena who was the 5th applicant in yesterday's hearing has formally withdrawn his application, thank you very much.
APPLICATION OF TSHOKOLO JOSEPH MOKOENA - APPLICATION NO. AM 0016/96: FORMALLY WITHDRAWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, you're also placing yourself on record as the Evidence Leader?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.  For the record, my name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mhlaba, with regard to Mr Mokoena, you have had the opportunity to properly consult with him?

MR MHLABA: Certainly, Mr Chairman, Mr Mokoena is sitting beside me and he can confirm what has been said on his behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I accept without hesitation what you've told us, but if he wishes to confirm it he may but it's not really necessary, thank you.

MR MHLABA: May he then be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Thank you, Mr Mokoena.
TSHOKOLO JOSEPH MOKOENA EXCUSED

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  In this bundle we have two applications ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Two incidents, yes.

MR MHLABA: We have two incidents, and I would want to first deal with the incident involving Molahleki Patrick Motlokoa who is the only applicant in this very incident.  May I call him?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr Mhlaba.
	Are your full names, Molahleki Patrick Motlokoa?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: (sworn states)

MR MHLABA: Thank you.
	Mr Motlokoa, is it correct that you were born during 1955, the 11th month on the 9th day at Bethlehem?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: You are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty in respect an offence of murder and robbery.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: And the person who died in this incident is Peacock Tsosane, is that correct?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: And you are serving a prison term in respect of the very offence, is that correct?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: During the period or shortly before you stood trial for this matter you were hospitalised for some sickness, is that correct?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Can you briefly explain to the Committee what was wrong with you?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I was attacked by a minor stroke, then I was taken to the hospital.

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not audible, can the mike be drawn closer to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the interpreter is saying that he can't hear you, could you please speak a little bit louder and closer to the microphone, thank you.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I was taken to the hospital in Harrismith.  I don't remember the date.  I was hospitalised for three days.  I am not able to remember well what was the problem with me.

MR MHLABA: You have drawn to my attention that as a result of this condition you have a loss of memory to a certain extent, is that correct?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: You are making an application for amnesty and the reason for you doing so is that the offences which you have committed were committed with a political objective, is that correct?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Did you on the 19th of May 1993, belong to any political organisation?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I was a member of the SDU of the ANC.

MR MHLABA: I want you as far as you can recall, to explain to the Committee when you became a member of the SDUs and how you came to join the SDUs and the ANC.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I started being a supporter of the ANC in 1983.  I was a card-carrying member of the ANC in 1990, then in 1992 I joined the SDU in Phuthaditjhaba.

MR MHLABA: I want you Mr Motlokoa to take us through the incident which occurred on the 19th of May 1993, in which incident the deceased Peacock Tsosane was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Mhlaba, I believe the interpreter has got a problem with the sound, if you could just ...(inaudible).
	Does that question have to be repeated or was it translated?  Did you hear the question, Mr Motlokoa?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: ...(no English translation)

MR MHLABA: Mr Motlokoa, I invite you to take us through the incident which happened on the 19th of May 1993, in which incident Hadibonoe Peacock Tsosane was killed.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: ...(no English translation).  We were armed with two 9mm.  While we were patrolling we met the deceased Tsosane ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Motlokoa, before you proceed, I think we missed a little bit of the translation.  Who were you with?  It didn't come through.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I was with John Kubeka.  We went to Phillip Mosia's place together with John Kubeka.  When we arrived at his place together with Phillip Mosia, we went out to patrol.  It was about a kilometre from Mosia's place.  That is when we met the deceased, he had stopped a car there trying to remove some stones on the road.
	I approached him with my firearm, I wanted him to give me his weapon because I knew him, that he was a policeman.  He refused to give me his weapon.  He tried to grab my weapon, so we were fighting over my firearm and then John shot in the air.  He was trying to scare him.  When John Kubeka realised that he was a policeman he decided to shoot him and then we left.
	The deceased was with another woman in the car, and then we locked that woman in the boot of the same car they were driving and then we ran away from there.

MR MHLABA: Mr Motlokoa you've told the Committee that you went out patrolling, can you tell us more about this patrolling, what were you looking for and what were the reasons for the patrol?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: There was a rally during the day which was hosted by the SRC college of education.  During that rally the police arrived and the students were chased away.  That night we decided to attack the police so that we could disarm them.

MR MHLABA: You have told the Committee of you intending to disarm the police officer and to take his firearm, what was the reason for this mission?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: The reason for disarming them, I was going to take these weapons to give them to the SDU.