Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

CHAIRPERSON: This is a continuation of a Section 29 Enquiry.  Ms Terreblanche I believe we are still going ahead with the enquiry into the Helderberg?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Yes.  Apart from one witness today I think we will have, at least I have seen here four witnesses from the South African Airways.  Two of them former employees and two of them current employees.  We have here with us Mr John Hare.  He is currently still with SAA.  Good morning, welcome.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Good morning, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Commissioner Wildschut to swear you in but before we do that let me welcome you and let me say we are extremely pleased that you have been able to take the time to be here.  A few ground rules.  The enquiry is held in terms of Section 29 of the Act.
 It is an in-camera hearing.  It is held in terms of the Act and the section provides that all evidence that has been led here will be confidential and remain confidential until the Commission decides otherwise and if and when the Commission so decides it will be in the circumstances where the people who have led such evidence and those who might be affected adversely by the evidence so taken at such an enquiry will have been given an opportunity to make representations. 
 So for the moment everything that you will be giving to us in this information gathering exercise will remain confidential.  It is for that reason that only people who have been invited or subpoenaed to attend and members of the Commission and their staff which include the translators and the sound engineers are permitted and will be attending at the enquiries.
 Which therefore brings me to who you have here.  On my left is Commissioner Wildschut.  She is a Commissioner in the Reparations and Rehabilitation's Committee.  My name is Ntsebeza.  I am a Commissioner in the Human Rights Violations Committee and to my right is Wilson Magadhla.  He is the head of the Special Investigative Section of the TRC Investigative Unit.  To the right is Ms Crystal Terreblanche who is an investigator who has been doing all the investigation that has caused this hearing to be held.  
 And with her is Dr David Klatzow who is a forensic specialist and who has been contracted by the Commission as a consultant and will be assisting Ms Terreblanche in the execution of their tasks.  There will be tea which I believe will be served between 11 and quarter past 11 and there will be lunch.  I do need to indicate that I will, I have an engagement at 5 with the Ministry, Minister Pallo Jordan and I will therefore have to excuse myself at half past four.  
 We might have to then try and expedite matters such that I am free to leave for me to be able to make the appointment.

MS TERREBLANCHE: That's very well Mr Chair, I think we will be through.

CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Wildschut, if you could then swear Mr Hare in.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Are you Mr Hare?  Mr Hare, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

JOHN DAVID HARE: No I don't.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Could you please state your full name for the record?

JOHN DAVID HARE: My name is John David Hare.

JOHN DAVID HARE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Terreblanche?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Thank you.  Mr Hare, we have asked you to come here for the following reasons.  To provide details and answer questions about the relationship between Armscor and SAA during the 1980's with particular reference to the period 1985 to '88.  To answer questions pertaining to your role in Armscor as well as in South African Airways.
 We understand that you were not at SAA at the time of the Helderberg incident.  But we also understand that you have some expertise and you have knowledge of Armscor and SAA?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Ms Terreblanche I'm sorry your microphone went dead at certain stages, would you mind repeating that?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Sorry.  Do you want me to repeat everything?  You heard me spelling out the questions that we've already put to you.  We understand that you weren't at SAA at the time of the Helderberg incident but that you have certain expertise.  At the moment I would just like to know whether you've prepared anything pertaining to the questions that we have put to you?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Ms Terreblanche, in answer it may seem quite strange to you but you ask a question alluding to a relationship between Armscor and South African Airways and my only response to that is that I am not aware of any such relationship that may or may not have existed but I certainly am not aware that there was any relationship in the period that you refer to and therefore continuing from that in the particular period that you refer to in the question later on, the same answer would apply.
 I am certainly not aware of any relationship that could have existed between Armscor and South African Airways other than a normal relationship in terms of which personnel of Armscor made use of South African Airways for passenger services.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Very well we'll get back to that.  I would just like at this stage for us to tell you how long you were with Armscor and what were you doing at Armscor?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Could I just go back before we do that to your earlier opening remark where you say that I am in possession of certain expertise and point out to you that that expertise would certainly not cover items such as the Helderberg or the technicalities of what happened to the Helderberg other than by way of hearsay that I've picked up during the course of my employment with SAA.

MS TERREBLANCHE: We'll note that.  I understand but can you just explain then what your expertise with Armscor was and then come, also come back to SAA?