Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:  No, I just know that Phindi was the one who was going to tell me, because I ran away.

MR LYSTER: And the two boys that you said lived in your house, your brother-in-law's children, were they active in one or other political party?  You said that they did not wish to be under the chief.

WITNESS:   They are ANC guys and they are staying at Imbali now.

MR LYSTER: You said in your statement, Mrs Ngcobo, that you had operations on your back to try and remove some of the pellets that are in your body, but they have not been completely successful because the left side of your body is not functioning properly.

WITNESS:   Yes, I had an operation, one at the front and one at the back, and another one at my ribs.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... Committee Members whether they wish to ask any questions.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mrs Ngcobo, I just need you to clarify something.  It's about the correct name and gender of Phindi Mngadi.  People have been referring to Phindi as a male person.  Is that correct, or is it in fact a female?

WITNESS:   It's a guy.

MR LAX: Mrs Ngcobo, I have a question that I would like to clarify.  I just want to hear whether - how many kids you have.  You told us about your brother's kids.

WITNESS:   One girl, and one boy whom I am staying with.  My girl is staying at Imbali, and this girl is in standard eight.  I only have two kids.

MR LAX: When I look at your situation, you can't work and you are now old.  You're approaching 60 now.  Did you try to look for a pension?

WITNESS:   No, I don't have someone who can really assist me, like someone who can take me, show me where to go.

MR LAX: Don't you have someone who'll carry you, take you?

WITNESS:   Yes, I don't have someone like that, someone who can take me, show me where to go and how to go about looking for a pension.

MR LAX: Okay, the third thing that I would like to clarify is that you are now crippled.  Are you attending any doctors?

WITNESS:   I once went to one doctor in Howick.

MR LAX: Thanks very much, Mrs Ngcobo.  We understand how you are suffering and how you have suffered so far.  Like I said, some of the things we can be able to help you now, and some we just pass them to the State President to try and help.  Thank you.

MR LAX: I would like to go back to Phindi Mngadi, the one that you said he's the one who burnt your house.  How did he die?

WITNESS:   They were killing each other.

MR LAX: When you're saying they were killing each other, who are "they"?  Was he belonging to any organisation?

WITNESS:  Yes, they were Inkatha members all of them.

MR LAX: Then are you saying other members, other Inkatha members have shot him?

WITNESS:   Yes, they were.  Sometimes they were shooting at each other.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... or your husband members of any party, or active in any political party?

WITNESS:   No.  At the time these things - these political activists were not there.  It was nothing except for chief and Amakhozi thing.

MR LYSTER: Mrs Ngcobo, thank you for coming in today and telling us your very, very sad story.  We can only imagine the terror that you must have experienced having been shot in your own house, running to hide in a field outside, and lying there bleeding from your wounds and watching as your house burned down with your husband inside it.  On top of these terrible memories you have lost your partner and your breadwinner, and we express our deep sympathy to you.

MR LYSTER: You have heard my colleague, Dr Magwaza, say that we will be making recommendations to the Government as to how you, and other people like you, can be assisted.  We hope that you feel a little better having told your story here in public, having drawn it to our attention, with the hope that you can receive assistance in the future.

MR LYSTER: Again we thank you for coming in and telling us your very sad story, and we wish you well.  Thank you very much.

MR LYSTER: The next and the final witness for today  is Mr Sibekapi Bangizwe Shelembe ... (inaudible) ... come from Mpophomeni township and you have come to tell us about the time that you were shot by the police with your friend, who was killed in the same incident.  This took place in 1990.  Before you tell us that story please will you stand and take the oath.

SIBEKAPI BANGIZWE SHELEMBE: (Sworn, States)

MR LYSTER: Mr Shelembe, I ask my fellow Commissioner, Dr Mgojo, to assist you with your evidence.  Can you hear me through those earphones now?

WITNESS:   Yes, I can hear you.

UNKNOWN: We appreciate your presence, Mr Shelembe.  I think your story is going to be the easiest because it's very common.  We have been dealing with Mpophomeni shootings for the past two days.  But just tell me, before you went to Mpophomeni where were you staying?

WITNESS:   I am from Impendle originally.

UNKNOWN: Then you went to Mpophomeni to build a house there.  Do you have a wife and children?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.  I have got seven children.

UNKNOWN: Are they all alive?

WITNESS:   And my wife is still alive and the children are alive.

UNKNOWN: In your statement you are going to talk about yourself as well as your friend, Mr Mnigathi.  Could you please tell us what happened as from 1990.

WITNESS:   It was in the morning.  We saw people from the chief's place heading towards Mpophomeni from Chief Mkhize's place.  Some were coming from Haza's place.  They were coming towards Mpophomeni to attack.  When they got there we were there in the street, and we also saw police standing right there at the top at the chief's place.  And there were also Hippos there, Casspirs, and they were shooting towards our direction.  The police were also there, and the police came towards us and they started shooting.

UNKNOWN: With whom were you?

WITNESS:   There were quite a number of us.

UNKNOWN: In your statement you said you had visited your friend.

WITNESS:   Yes.  We were ascending.  As we were ascending in that direction we met with the police.

UNKNOWN: What was your friend's name?

WITNESS:   His name was Mkethelwa.

UNKNOWN: The one you visited with Mkethelwa, what was his name?

WITNESS:   We were there, and then this fracas started when people were attacking us.

UNKNOWN: Who is this friend who was staying at Amakwavabeni?

WITNESS:   It was at Mkethelwa's place.  When the Casspir approached us when they got to us they never said anything, they just started shooting us.  I heard Mkethelwa screaming, and he was running to the opposite direction.  I discovered that I was shot twice in my leg.  I started crawling and I hid myself.  I just continued crawling, I couldn't walk.  As I was hiding under that long grass I tried to crawl towards a certain house, and I discovered that there were quite a number of people that had been injured.  We were helped by Lucky, because he took us to the hospital in Greys.  The people who shot us were police.  Inkatha had not yet come to us at that time.  I think it's the police who came first to shoot us.  We were taken to the hospital.  When we got there we were helped by Lucky.  He's the one who took us to the hospital.  My feet are aching, especially where I was shot.  I can't walk properly.  Lucky was the owner of a bottle store and he had a lorry, so he helped us by ferrying us to the hospital in his lorry because there were so many of us.

UNKNOWN: Did you threaten him at that time?  Was he threatened when he took you to the hospital?

WITNESS:   No, he was lucky enough to escape the police, but these police were attacking just about everyone.

UNKNOWN: Did they ever tell you why they attacked you?

WITNESS:  I don't  know.  I just told myself it's the Government, but I didn't know what the Government was attacking us for because we were in our own homes, but I can say what we were being assaulted for.

UNKNOWN: At the time that you were injured were you attended to medically?