Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR STOFILE: Yes.  Was he not present at some time during the time you were assaulting the detainee?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I'm not sure but the officers would come in, in all the detainees, but I'm not sure about Myeki, I would be sure that he came in.

MR STOFILE: You see why I'm asking there were mainly two senior who would, according to the story of the victim, would come in during the assault, it's Myeki and Donege.  Do you remember that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I wouldn't dispute that, I can't say it is not like that.

MR STOFILE: You can't dispute that they gave you - they were also part of the team who gave you instructions at the time, you can't dispute that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I have already mentioned that everybody who was in that office was participating in the torture and the assault, everybody who was in that office with the exception of Sergeant Makola.  I have already mentioned that.

MR STOFILE: Thank you.  There was an officer who was known as Vusi Gadebe, does the name ring - it's a nickname, do you remember that?  Amongst the police officers?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that was a nickname.

MR STOFILE: What was his real name?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was Tyani

MR STOFILE: You see, the victims says that people who were most vicious in attacking and torturing was you and this particular person?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not deny that.  I admitted that I'm the one who tortured Mrs Matoti.  Tyani was there and also others.  I requested to write down their names on a list.

MR STOFILE: The point I'm saying is that they were the most vicious, the two of you were the number one, the number two was - I didn't put the other one.  I'm raising that because that is the victim's story?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Maybe he noticed me, it might be like that.

MR STOFILE: I think I covered what I wanted to cover.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STOFILE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stofile.  Mr Madikizela, do you have any questions?

MR MADIKIZELA: Yes Mr Chairperson, I've questions to put to the witness.
	Mr Siqhola, you said when you joined the then Transkei Police you were given some sort of training at Umtata Police College, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MADIKIZELA: What type of training did you receive?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Police training.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this the basic training?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Basic training, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we need details of basic training, Mr Madikizela.

MR MADIKIZELA: Is it correct that the torture, the ill-treatment and the various methods of doing so that you have mentioned before this Committee were never part of that training?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is not true.

MR MADIKIZELA: In other words ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand your answer, the question was how to ill-treat people and torture people, was that part of the training you received at Police College?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MADIKIZELA: Is it also correct, Mr Siqhola, that when you joined the security branch in 1980 no further training that was given to you by that branch?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Which branch?

MR MADIKIZELA: The question is, when you were recruited to join the security branch, is it correct that you were not given further training by the security branch?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There was training.

MR MADIKIZELA: What type of training?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: VIP protection.

MR MADIKIZELA: And what else?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is all, the Transkei Police.

MR MADIKIZELA: Is it correct that the manner and torture and treatment that you have discussed before the Committee nobody taught you that from the security police?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There are people who taught me.

MR MADIKIZELA: Can you name those people?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I can name them.

MR MADIKIZELA: Carry on?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Sgt Chiwane, the late Sgt Chiwane.

MR MADIKIZELA: Is that all?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: W/o Matafeni, Sgt Tshona, Sgt Notshaleka, Brig Dengana, Capt Gushu, Col Sufumba.

MR MADIKIZELA: Colonel who?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Sufumba.  Lt Myeki.

MR MADIKIZELA: Lieutenant?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Myeki.  And other officers that I cannot recall their names, there are lot people that I learnt from, how to torture people.  There are a lot of them.  It was a practice of the security branch as a whole, torturing people, that is.

MR MADIKIZELA: Was this learning experience that you received from the security branch a formal one or something that you copied because it was done by the other members of the security branch?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: When I arrived there it was being done.  I was not lectured, it was not a formal thing.  When we arrived there, it was already being done by the security members.

MR MADIKIZELA: May I just refer to paragraph 7 of your affidavit where amongst other things you say Gen Lavisa lectured you on communism and it's dangers and how to hate the African National Congress.  I have instructions from the General that when you joined the security branch what he lectured you on was that as part of your duties is to hold the constitution of the then Transkei and to protect it from it's enemies amongst them being the communism.  He never actually indoctrinated you into believing and to hating communism.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: If General can still remember well, I laughed at one lecture session.  He then became angry and then he said that I'm a terrorist because I laughed so if he says that he only gave me lectures on that particular subject only he is mistaken because he even labelled me as a terrorist and I was even threatened that I would be chased away from that course, I wouldn't be allowed at that course.

MR MADIKIZELA: Let's pass on that.  Let's come to the old office that you signed when you joined the security branch.  Do you have a copy of it?  Do you have that copy?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I never saw it again after signing it that day.

MR MADIKIZELA: Did you understand what you were signing, did you know the contents of the document you signed?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I only grabbed a few lines because there was no chance to disagree with what was written there.  I was told to sign there.  I was told to read it and sign it.

MR MADIKIZELA: You make it sound as if you were forced to come and join the security branch, you had no choice?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was not asked whether I want to join or not, I was told to go to the security branch.

MR MADIKIZELA: I put it to you Mr Siqhola that in this document that you signed before you joined the security branch it's merely an oath of secrecy that you not divulge any information that was learned during your stay and work and as a member of the security branch.  Nothing you says you must commit the acts of torture, ill-treatment.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure nobody - I don't think he said that the oath - he referred to it as an oath?  It wasn't anything about him performing torture in there, in that document?

MR MADIKIZELA: As the Committee pleases, Mr Chairperson.
	Now let's go to your paragraph 9 of the affidavit, Mr Siqhola.  Paragraph 9.1.  My instructions are to dispute the contents of that paragraph.  I'm instructed firstly that it's not true that you received instructions from senior officers, some of whom you have mentioned in that paragraph?  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I am saying it is the truth.

MR LAX: Now where does he say that he got instructions from those officers?  What he does say in that paragraph is that they were present?

MR MADIKIZELA: They were present at the ...(intervention)