Human Rights Violation Hearings — Messina — 1997-04-08

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: There was no witness that was in the police cell.  I knew that because of policeman, Mr Matika who came and took me and while we, I was there, they told me that they are calling me in connection with my brother, Machudo because I was not aware that Machudo was in police station.  That I know that at about half past two when ma, policeman, Mr Matika came and took us.

MS SEROKE: Do you have the post-mortem reports?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Well, the boers who were there in possession of the papers.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Ms Seroke.  Mr Manthata !

THOMAS MANTHATA: For how long had Machudo been a mine worker?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: I cannot give the, well it was a long time but I don't know exactly, precisely how long it took.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Up to the time when he got killed or he died, how long had  he been out of work?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Well, he, well that was after the mine had closed down and he went to another firm.

THOMAS MANTHATA: After the mine, after the mind had closed?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: About a year.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And this other employment that he got, what was he doing at that, at that firm?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Well, I'll only see him on an machinery section, greasing machines and other things.  I can't know exactly what it was all about.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So you say that someone said that the police were scared because Machudo had died in the cell.  Do you remember who said that?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: I'm not sure exactly because I didn't even know the policeman.  I only knew about the policeman  in connection with Machudo's issues.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And this other policeman that you are referring to, is he still a policeman?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Well, the two of them, Matika and Masindi are still policemen.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And you have never been with them even at this time, just to ask them coolly what is it they know about Machudo's death?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Honestly, those were vicious people that one could never attempt asking because even if when I look at them, I am so frightened because I know they should have discussed this with me to tell me or to explain to me as to how it came about but they were so vicious and then they were threatening me.  Instead of the police looking for the investigation, they asked me to do that.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Because I'm asking that question because I thought you were saying there were two groups of the policemen, that is the Whites and the Blacks so I thought that perhaps the Black policemen could have been approachable, you know, for this kind of follow-up but now if I understand you well you are saying that all the policemen at that police station were of the same mind with regard to the death of Machudo?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Truly so.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You say you, you didn't engage a lawyer.  Did I hear you well, or you did?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Sorry, could you repeat the question please?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did you ever engage a lawyer?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Yes.  There was  a lawyer a certain Ntai who was representing and he was the one who was dealing with this case because during the time when there had to be a trial, Mr Lerhule asked me to go to Pietersberg and it was explained to me that the trial was connected on such and such a day.  We came back with Mr Lerhule and I was taken from home to the police station.  On arriving there we went to one of his, where there was a prosecutor.  Just before we, the trial time I was with Mr Ntai, Mr Ntai was cross-questioning somebody then although I couldn't hear what they were talking about but Ntai subsequently told me that the trial is still on.  Even up to now, I haven't heard anything.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Oh, the, the trial is still on and when was that,  that is, how far back have you been in touch with Ntai?  Is it a week? Is it a month? Is it a year?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Well, about two years now.  Well, since his promotion he has never come to me.  I mean before his promotion, since then he's no longer contacting me or we are not contacting each other.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Oh that's  Mr Ntai, he's not contacting you?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Yes, he is no longer contacting me since he got promoted because he, before he told me that he left somebody to be responsible but then I don't even no who is accountable for this case now.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Have you ever been to Ntai's former office of lawyers to find out who is running that office now?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: No, I haven't there.  I haven't been to Pietersberg.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Ma'am can I just try and clarify one thing here.  There's two stories.  One is that Machudo could have been killed at the shop and the other one that he could have been killed in the police cell.  Now this break-in that the police were talking about, where did that take place?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Well, the break-in, the involvement of break-in, we are told that he went up on top of the store.  That was the police information and I asked the people who were working at the shop as to who broke the shop or how did it happen and they said they don't know anything about it.  So I was so confused because the police were telling me that he was on top of the store and he was disturbed and fell down.

DR RANDERA: So, the shop owners knew nothing about somebody on the roof and somebody who had fallen down?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Well, the shop owners seemingly didn't know anything.  He was just shocked to see the vans when the deceased was taken to the mortuary.  He was just surprised to see the statement taking place and when I went to the van Matika was driving it, I only saw the contractors who were busy with this man as well.  I still don't even know the contractors who were there.  I know that it could have been a collation between the police and the, the contractors.

DR RANDERA: I'm sorry, can you just clarify again what, how the contractors come into the story.  Who are the contractors?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: The contractors are the people who were at the camp, who had their tents there.  We, I learnt that they were staying in Zimbabwe.  It was during the time when they were removing the big pipes which were responsible for isoling.  Those people, after that the contractors, if I told they were having contact with me we could have understood clearly as to what happened.  Masindi and Matika didn't like me contacting the contractors.  That is why when we were coming from Venda I saw, I realized that the contractors were no longer in that camp.

DR RANDERA: Was the shop in the camp?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: It was right in the location called  Kambo, Oilchem.

DR RANDERA: How old was your brother when he died?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: I can't remember so vividly.  I don't recall.

DR RANDERA: Did he have any children? Was he married?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: No.

DR RANDERA: Had your, had you brother been, ever been arrested by the police for any other political activity or any other activity before?

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Not at all.  Not a single day.  He never knew anything about the cell or prison.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mama Gladys.  I have no further questions.

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Thank you too.

DR RANDERA: We thank you to, for coming to-day and, and your husband.  There're so many of these stories that we hear of people who got killed by policemen and often there is no end to, to what actually took place.  The answers are not there.  Your statement is with the Truth Commission.  We will attempt to find out if there, if it's possible to do so, what happened to your brother and we'll come back to you.  Thank you very much for coming to-day.

TSHIMBILINI GLADYS NEUVHIRWA: Thank you too.