Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And is it correct that with regard to the black members from C1 who were deployed to render services here, that this had taken place on the ground, that a black policeman, a usual member of the police, would be in control of the vehicle and that under him he had two or three askaris who functioned in cells?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And that usually the askaris would do the initial infiltration and he would on their turn report to the black policeman who was in control and then he on his part would in turn report to the person who was in command of the Vlakplaas contingency, a senior officer or whatever?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That would be the plan.

MR HUGO: And finally, this person from C1 would then liaise with you and that is how the information was co-ordinated?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe will say that he initially, before he became involved in this operation, had been involved, or at that stage he was not an askari, but it was a person who was arrested, an ANC person and he was tasked to render evidence in a terrorist trial in Pietermaritzburg and Mr Radebe accompanied him along with Mr Taylor, do you recall any of that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall, but it is possible.

MR HUGO: And Mr Radebe will furthermore say that after they had returned from the terrorist trial in Pietermaritzburg, he was told by Mr Ras to infiltrate the cell which had infiltrated to the existence of Nthombi Khubeka and this is the stage where the plaster of Paris came about.  Do you recall that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR HUGO: And Mr Radebe will furthermore say that this instruction was given to him by Mr Ras at C R Swart police station, or the building there and that the man in plaster of Paris, Mr Dube and Mr Mbane were present.  Were you present when the instruction was given?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would say so, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: With regard to further infiltration, did you have knowledge of Mr Radebe's participation in the initial approach to the deceased or may I put it as follows -  Did they report back to you on a daily basis?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Who reported back to you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was Mr Radebe.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe will give evidence and say that if we can refer to him as such, the man in plaster was handed over to you on the freeway.  Can you recall what this man looked like?  Can you give us a description as to who this person was?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, the person had already been an informer at that stage and he had been used to introduce Simon and the askaris to Nthombi and he was withdrawn, so if he was handed over to me on the freeway after the introduction, then it would be correct.

MR HUGO: For the sake of completeness Mr Radebe will say that this plaster man was approximately 30, he was Zulu speaking, of average height and he was a trained person of the ANC, will you accord with that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Then Mr Radebe says that he had a few meetings with the deceased and that he, amongst others, was very interested in the version that they had a so-called safe-house at their disposal where terrorists could be taken where they could be accommodated.  Did Mr Radebe report any of this to you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall that the cover legend which was used to approach her, I don't exactly know what they had used.

MR HUGO: And then Mr Radebe says that the plaster man had been used on one or two occasions to speak to Nthombi, but then Nthombi started making some sounds that the people in the vicinity might have become suspicious and it was then decided not to use him anymore and that is why he was handed over on the freeway to you.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: My recollection of it is that Chairperson the plaster man would only be used to approach her house and then he would be withdrawn, so I cannot recall at which stage she became suspicious.

MR HUGO: And then Mr Radebe will also say that Nthombi, after the plaster man had been withdrawn, had given them information with regard to another person who was in search of accommodation and arms and then they gave you information then and it was arranged that this person would be taken down to Winkelspruit.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I don't think that information came from her.  He refers to another operation, that operation was generated elsewhere.  There was such an incident, but not from her.

MR HUGO: But Mr Radebe says that they were present during, when this person was taken down to Winkelspruit
and they don't know what happened to this person.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.  That is the other operation which I referred to.

MR HUGO: And then Mr Radebe will also say that his recollection is not clear, but his suspicion is that during this time a further one or two persons, by means of facilitation done through Nthombi. was taken down to Winkelspruit and was handed over on the freeway to the white members of the Security Branch.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, that is not correct.

MR HUGO: May I just ask you, during this period was it ever reported to you that Mr Radebe and one of the alleged ANC members who had close liaison with Nthombi had been killed?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I don't know about that.

MR HUGO: And do you recall or do you know that during this period, May 1987, a body was found in the vicinity of the Executive Hotel?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hugo have you any idea where the Executive Hotel is more or less?

MR HUGO: We're not sure, but we suspect it is in kwaMashu.

MS THABETHE: It's at Umhlazi.

MR HUGO: Thank you.  Mr Botha, Mr Radebe will furthermore say that after the plaster man had been removed after the second person had been removed, his recollection was that one or two more persons had been removed and Nthombi became suspicious and she started asking questions and Mr Radebe then indeed contacted the white members, I don't know whether it was with you or, but it was with white members and reported that she had become suspicious.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, my recollection was that the operation was becoming sour in terms that we were not making any progress with regard to the information which Jimmy and Simon had reported to us and the fact that we had information from another informant which said that she had contact with the ANC and that she provided accommodation to terrorists and they could not take it any further and this led to us placing pressure on Simon and through him on Jimmy and company, in order to force her to take them to the terrorists where she accommodated them.

MR HUGO: If I may ask you, how did you think they were to force her to disclose that information?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The operation which they were involved in was that they were trained persons and they could contact the other persons.

MR HUGO: Nevertheless, Mr Radebe will testify and say that after he had explained to you and your group that suspicion had arisen, he was given instruction to take Nthombi to Winkelspruit so that she could be interrogated further and whatever further would happen to her.  Did you give such an instruction or did you know of it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, there was no such instruction.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe says that arrangements were made that Ms Nthombi would be picked up from the railway station and then they had picked her up next to the Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant and that they had taken her directly to Winkelspruit.  What do you say of that?