Human Rights Violation Hearings — Beaufort West — 1996-08-13

MS MANGALISO: Yes, there was a statement that was taken from me which was after a long time because when the policemen asked for this statement from me, I was working for the Wimpy and I used to run away from them because I got a word that I should not give a statement to the police before I see the lawyers.  
I remember one day at work I had already told my co-workers that if the police come they should not point at me and say I'm the one.  Then it happened, one friend of mine and I was going to work that time in the afternoon and she called me - Evelin - that I should come to her.  Then I asked who's looking for me and when I came closer I could see there was a policeman taking at - standing at the door.
Then I decided to move back and hide and I ran round the corner and went into the Reall Hotel.  And I asked for clothes and some doeks, then I left my uniform there and put on this clothes and went to the location.  I found this Special Branch people there at my home and after I had given my statement to the lawyers I thereafter gave the Special Branch people my statement.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] according to our records the inquest was held on 25th of October in 1985.  Now, the statement that you gave to the police, was that before the inquest was held in the Magistrates Court here in Beaufort West?

MS MANGALISO: I gave my statement before that but I can't remember what month it was but it was before the 15th of October.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] to come to Court and to come and talk about what happened when Mr Kratshi was killed?

MS MANGALISO: Yes, I went to Court and I did go.

ADV POTGIETER: I understand it  [indistinct]  to give evidence at Court?

MS MANGALISO: Yes, they said I should give evidence in Court and tell them what I had seen.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you  [indistinct] or what?

MS MANGALISO: Yes, I did that.

ADV POTGIETER: And did you tell the court exactly like you've explained to us now what happened on that day?

MS MANGALISO: Yes, I told them everything there but here I'm in a relaxed mood and there I was nervous because it was the first time for me to stand in court.  I told them about the killer De Villiers who said  Let us kill this pig.

ADV POTGIETER: And apart from yourself did anybody else who also saw what happened there give evidence?

MS MANGALISO: Yes, there were other people - two of them who gave evidence but one of them the lawyer said and I don't know whether he was for the state or for the complainant.  He said to me that I was the one who went about telling people who was the killer of De Villiers.  Because he said the other witness did not say that.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] these other people that you speak about are they also from the township or are they police - police people?

MS MANGALISO: They are residents in the location.

ADV POTGIETER: And the - this Mr De Villiers do you know where he is now?

MS MANGALISO: I don't know much about his whereabouts but a friend of mine - Nora - who looks very much like me and once lived in George that year, said she met Mr De Villiers and Mr De Villiers thought it was me and asked her  Have you come to point me.  And he said he wanted to meet him in one road and he did think of it that we looked alike and perhaps De Villiers was mistaking her for me.  And so she did not go there.

ADV POTGIETER: So it could be that he is in George?

MS MANGALISO: Yes maybe.

ADV POTGIETER: Can I also just ask you Ms Mangaliso from what you saw there, was there any reason for the policeman De Villiers to - to shoot Mr Kratshi?

MS MANGALISO: According to what I observed there was absolutely no reason why De Villiers shot Kratshi because it - Mr De Villiers wanted Mr De Villiers to go to the police station he could have easily done so, because there were four of them.  And they could have forced him if they really wanted  him, according to what they said.  There was absolutely no reason why he shot him.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Ms Mangaliso this question is for you.  You witnessed a horrendous act, I'm just wandering what the impact of all of this has been on you.  Your health, your emotions, even your sleeping patterns?

MS MANGALISO: There are a lot of changes like I now have develop a tendency of begrudging  people and I am nervous and I don't feel comfortable.

MS SEROKE: All right,  [indistinct]

MS MANGALISO: Yes, I'm quite well.

MS SEROKE: Nonceba after you'd given your statement about the killing of Mr Kratshi did 
De Villiers try to ill treat you about that?

MS MANGALISO: No, he did not but I could see that where ever she - he saw me because I was working at the Wimpy and he was not aware and one time he came with his wife and I was not in for a short while.  Then I heard some people calling me from that cafe and I went into the Wimpy and I stood next to the self-serve and he was just about to eat but as soon as he saw my face he wouldn't eat.  And then the wife asked whey he was bothering himself about all that and not eat and then he said to the wife  Hurry up so that we can leave.  So he left without eating his food because he had seen my face.

MS SEROKE: Since you were a neighbour to Mr Kratshi and who also was the eye witness of this killing, is there any help you could offer if you were to get some money as to help Simphiwe and the grandmother.  Since you were people who had been neighbours who were in good relations together with this family?

MS MANGALISO: You mean it money could be available, yes a lot.  Especially to Simphiwe because my wishes are that Simphiwe should be like his father.  We are not trying to buy favor by saying that his father was a good man.

MARY BURTON: I'm going to ask Dr Ramashala to thank you both then for coming to talk to us today.