Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Mr Meyer?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe do you have any questions?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nesamari can you just enlighten me on one aspect about how interrogations were conducted by junior members of the unit, that is the core unit that was set up to investigate suspects on the attack on Sibasa Police Station.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well are you referring to the junior members?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: With regard to the interrogations by the junior members there was no specific directive which they were given as to how they will interrogate, but most of them will just voluntarily involved themselves.  For example like the woman who was alluded to was not part of the team.  She was just you know involved through some extraordinary means just to assault or just torture or assault them, especially in the absence of Mr Ramaligela.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem that there was very little discipline there or control or order.  I mean it was an orgy of violence.  Anyone who feels like punching or kicking somebody could just join in and come and punch and kick. They are not even part of the investigation.  It was open game.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Mr Chairperson as far as the Security is concerned, if I want to put it clearly, we were brainwashed by the Boers who were leading us.  I will say personally I will take - we used to have those banned parties were enemies to us.  We used no control and there was no discipline at all.  I don't know how to put it because we were so brainwashed in such a way that we regarded them as enemies.  That is why even when we were dealing with them we didn't have to take any care or that is why I am saying there was no discipline or control except when there was a senior member then we will really be disciplined.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you in the investigating team which compromised Ramaligela, Managa, were you ever instructed by Mr Ramaligela to conduct an interrogation of a suspect detained in relation to the Sibasa bombing attack, or did you do the interrogations of your own accord?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well normally we will interrogate them even in the presence of Mr Ramaligela. Unless if he had gone elsewhere he would leave us under the care of these people and interrogate them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But would he assign you to conduct any interrogation of a given suspect?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well there was no specific method on prescribing as to how we do it.  There was no method like that.  He will just say just deal with them, interrogate them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, but he would actually give you directives to deal with them?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well the only instruction that will come through will be if there were certain points which needed some clarity, for example during the interrogation of a particular suspect there were some elements which came clear that had to be - well he would then go to specifics and say Mr Chikororo, so and so, one, two, three, which we will have to have clarity on.  That used to happen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did you come to interrogate Mr Chikororo?  Were you instructed by any member to do the interrogation?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: With regard to Mr Chikororo there was part of information which led us in the involvement of Mr Chikororo regarding his vehicle during the scene of the crime of the police station attack.  It is alleged that his kombi was used in conveying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry the question is very simple Captain.  The question was were you ever instructed to interrogate Mr Chikororo?  Were you given that instruction by some superior officer - Constable go and interrogate Mr Chikororo?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes I did receive that kind of instruction.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who gave you that instruction?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: The instruction came from Mr Ramaligela and Mr Sofuwa.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ramaligela and Mr -  Mr Sofuwa?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Sofuwa, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was Mr Sofuwa a senior member to Mr Ramaligela or what?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And at that stage was Mr Ramushwana not yet in command of that investigating team?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I can't recall that.  Well I think Mr Ramushwana came later, but I can't recall that exactly as to whether it was before Mr Ramushwana but what I can only remember is that Mr Sofuwa was still there as the team leader.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Will you just allow me a very brief comment to Mr Nesamari.  Mr Nesamari this Committee is not insensitive where there is a true need for anybody to become reconciled with the community but it's not a prerequisite for amnesty.  So I thought that I should just suggest to you that if there's really a need that you could perhaps through your legal representative or through your church, after this has been concluded, arrange for such an opportunity to get the other things off your chest which you wanted to do here this morning and which we could not - as the Judge explained, in view of the time, allowed you to do.
	Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions arising Mr Meyer?
NO FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg?
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Unfortunately we will have to adjourn this matter now.  We won't be able to be sitting this afternoon.  One of the Panel members is unfortunately not available.  I am told that it's been agreed that we will be able to continue with this matter on the 28th and 29th of June, is that correct?

MR MEYER: Yes, that has been arranged Mr Chairman.  We are available on those dates.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I confirm Mr Chairman we are available and we can continue on the 28th.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We will then have to postpone this matter to the 28th of June also for hearing on the 29th of June.  That is a Monday and Tuesday.  We will start at ten o'clock on the Monday.  The first day takes time to set up all the equipment etc, so we will start at 10 o'clock on Monday the 28th of June and we will sit on the 29th of June until - this venue will also be available then, so unless otherwise advised, but I am sure it won't be changed, it will be at this venue here, the same place, 28th of June at 10 o'clock.	Thank you very much.
	We will be starting with another application tomorrow.  It's got nothing to do with this application, so we as a Committee will then be adjourning until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock where we are going to resume the other hearing.  Anybody who wishes to be present can do so if they want to, to hear the proceedings.
 	Thank you, we will adjourn now.
HEARING ADJOURNS