Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. 	General, you've already placed it on record that your function in this particular period related to the Defence Force and that in terms of the CCB itself, I want to get certain information from you.
	You've testified that a project such as Omar and Evans would theoretically speaking, have been approved by yourself, or could have been approved by yourself.  Do I understand the position correctly that the type of situation in which people were to be eliminated within the borders of the country, where it was possibly necessary to eliminate such people, that it actually was envisaged when the CCB or the internal wing of it, was established.

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, during the Webster judicial inquest and during the Harms Commission proceedings, I placed great emphasis on the fact that we, Special Forces, and therefore CCB, and in particular the CCB, we could only act outside the borders of the country.  That was not the complete truth.  Special Forces and elements of the CCB, not Region 6, it was before Region 6 was established, were already involved in activities within the country.  And here I specifically recall the Ribeiro incident.  Then Region 6 was founded and it was called the domestic or internal region, plus the fact that Region 6 were able to act in a covert fashion.  In other words that its actions would not be traceable back to Special Forces and to the Defence Force, it amounted to a region having been established which had the potential to act within the borders of the country.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You were appointed as the Commanding General of Special Forces after the CCB was established, is that correct?  The CCB already existed when you took over?

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And at the stage when you took over as the Commanding General of Special Forces, had you been aware of the CCB before then?

EDWARD WEBB: Not at all.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you informed of the existence of the CCB upon you taking over command?

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: At that stage the internal wing, Region 6, had already been established when you took over.

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Who was your predecessor, just for the record.

EDWARD WEBB: Gen Joop Joubert.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So the information regarding the existence of the CCB as such and the internal Region 6, that information you got from Gen Joubert?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, that's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Can you tell us when you took over this command?

EDWARD WEBB: If I remember correctly, it was in 1988.  No, it was in 1989, but in December '88, I was already at Special Forces Head Office and then the submission took place from my predecessor to myself and on 1 January '89, I officially took over the command.

MR P DU PLESSIS: It is on record that as far as the internal region is concerned, that the appointments of Region 6's staff, the Regional Manager for instance and various members of the cell, Maree, Botha, van Zyl, that that took place during 1988.

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And that during 1988, for six months after their appointment and due to an agreement between the Police and the Defence Force, these people were inactive.  Is that the information which you got when you were given a briefing?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, they were only to become operative on the 1st of January '89.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you were informed of that aspect?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now this region would only have become active under your command, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you told whether any internal operations had taken place before you took over command?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Your answer is perhaps slightly ambiguous, were you informed that there had been no such operations, operations of the internal Region 6 before your taking over the command?

EDWARD WEBB: Well they couldn't have launched any operations, they only became active on the 1st of January '89.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You mentioned that Special Forces or the CCB, I'm not quite sure and I want you to clarify that for us, that they had already launched certain operations within the country before Region 6 was established.  Do I understand that correctly?

EDWARD WEBB: That is correct, although my predecessor did not inform me about those operations.  As a result of the structure he wouldn't have informed me about it.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Are you talking about the fact that there was secrecy?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you were aware of the fact that internally the CCB or Special Forces had already launched certain actions or operations against the then enemies of the State?

EDWARD WEBB: I wasn't aware of it, but you hear things here and there and, that is in your position as Head of Special Forces, or in Special Forces, and the Ribeiro thing sounded to me as if Special Forces could have been involved.  Afterwards of course, the matter was revealed.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Are you saying it was confirmed that Special Forces had been involved?

EDWARD WEBB: Correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But General, upon your taking over command, the forces and the powers and functions of the Commanding General of Special Forces, must have been spelt out to you, is that not so?

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And if Special Forces had acted against the enemy of the State, within the country, those powers and functions must also have been spelt out to you most clearly.

EDWARD WEBB: As I tried to explain just now, Chair, as a result of the establishment of Region 6 and by calling it an internal or domestic region, plus its capacity to act in a covert manner, it followed logically from those facts that we in fact had the capacity to act within the country.  My predecessor didn't spell out certain operations that took place within the borders of the country.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But if you're talking about a capacity to act internally, capacity means that you could do it, you had the capacity, you had the fire power, you had the staff, access to weaponry etcetera, to act within the country.  You agree with me?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But a capacity to act is one thing, it has to go hand in hand with the authority to act, correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And that power or authority to act, that was part of your job description.  It must have been.

EDWARD WEBB: It was never put in writing, but my capacity and my powers and functions, if I remember correctly, would have included the fact that if I approved of an operation and there was a loss of life, then it would have had to go to a higher authority to be authorised.  If there was no loss of life envisaged, then I could authorise it myself.  But this was never put in writing, that "You had the power to act within the country.?  And even if it was mentioned, it would never have been reduced to writing.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Well exactly, General, as a result of this covert nature of the structure that these things were never put down black on white.

EDWARD WEBB: That is what I'm saying, yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you were told orally by your predecessor what your powers and functions were to be?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now I heard you say that you are not prepared to talk about projects outside of the country and I respect that, but the point remains that it must have been general knowledge that the South African Defence Force, via its covert structures, were acting against the enemies of the then State, in neighbouring countries for instance, to try and destabilise them, is that not so?

EDWARD WEBB: Overtly and covertly?