Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

FERDINAND BARNARD: I contacted Mr van Zyl that morning and informed him regarding the Lubowski incident that I'd viewed on TV, and he told me that I should speak to him later that day in the hotel where I was booked into in Woodstock, the Holiday Inn.  He told me that the bomb which had exploded towards the end of August had been his project and that it had successfully been completed in certain aspects but not in others.  I asked him to explain and he said that the objective had been to kill all the occupants or to maim all the occupants in the hall and that the project had not been successfully completed because the remote control device was faulty and by the time it had been repaired and activated, most of the people had left the meeting hall.  That is what he told me.  And that it had been an order from the very top.  He also stated that he had attached either 4 pounds or 4 kilograms worth of nails to the bomb with masking tape, in order to produce a better shrapnel effect.

GEORGE BIZOS: That he had added to it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That he had done it.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you then told us that you discussed this with Calla Botha.

FERDINAND BARNARD: At a later stage, I cannot recall when, I had contact with Mr Calla Botha and I discussed it with him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you told us that he differed with Van Zyl in his report to you, to what extent was the report different?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Botha was upset, he was indignant, he said that he didn't know why that man was saying such things, he said that he was living in a dream world, he said that he, Mr Botha, had personally inspected the bomb, that he was the last one to view the bomb, that he doesn't know how he was implicated in the whole matter and that it was possible to teach a monkey to activate the button in ten seconds.  He also denied the aspect of the nails.  He also denied that the people had to be killed, he stated emphatically that on the contrary, the direct instruction had been that no-one should be killed.  I myself was not involved in the bomb incident.  If I could give you the details of what exactly was said, I would.  Mr Botha denied it, but Mr Slang van Zyl looked very serious when he told me all the details.  I don't know why this is.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Calla Botha express any reluctance to being involved in that operation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I wouldn't say that he was reluctant, but when I made this report regarding the nails to him, he said that he didn't know why they involved him in the first place, because it wasn't his project, that he was working independently, but they needed him when they wanted to use him, that was when he would be good enough for them to use.  He said that one could teach a chimpanzee in ten minutes to activate the button which would detonate the bomb.  That was his attitude.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've heard the evidence of Gen Webb, Mr Verster and Van Zyl, that this was merely to frighten people.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, I heard it.

GEORGE BIZOS: How consistent is that with the way in which the CCB did its business?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It's not consistent at all, it's inconsistent.  To my mind.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us turn to the operation, Apie as it's referred to in the papers.  Now you have given evidence to the effect that you were told by Van Zyl that this was the third step of five which would have led to the death of Archbishop Tutu's son.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: In the statement that you made at the time you were detained in terms of Section 29 before the Harms Commission, you mention that fact as well.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: In your dealings with Van Zyl after that, did he ever deny it or did he ever tell you how did you come to say this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, he didn't, I was never confronted with it.  In my Section 29 statement, if I recall correctly, I also concealed Mr van Zyl's identity in that it would come from someone else, I created a fictional person by the name of Dirk, who was actually Mr van Zyl in reality, but with my second Section 29 statement I stipulated that it was indeed Mr van Zyl and not this Dirk that I'd referred to.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that when you mentioned it the first time you attempted to ...(intervention)

FERDINAND BARNARD: To cover for Van Zyl.

GEORGE BIZOS: To cover for Van Zyl.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That's correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: But in your second statement you came out with it.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That's correct yes, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: That too was said before you are alleged to have given unfavourable evidence towards people in order to make friends in high places.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes Sir, I think my attitude towards that remark is clearly on record.

GEORGE BIZOS: The Members of the Committee and particularly the Chairman, has asked why were you treated differently and there are one or two questions that I want to ask you about that, Mr Barnard.  What was Luitingh's job as far as you were concerned?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Luitingh had other duties that I was not involved in, but his work with regard to me was to act as my Co-ordinator.  All my information went into the system via him and I received my tasks from him as well.

GEORGE BIZOS: And that's the man that you got most instructions from and that's the man where you got most of the bonus money from.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That's correct yes, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you explain, if you can, why a Region 6 was not chosen for that purpose but apparently someone who was under the direct control of Mr Verster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: For what purpose is that, Sir?

GEORGE BIZOS: Why were you handled by a person who had direct access to Mr Verster and not by one of the people that was a member of Region 6?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I think that's obvious, in order to establish a cut-off point.  You must remember that Verster and Luitingh at no stage were aware of the fact that I knew their identities, according to them there was an absolute watertight cut-off point, that being themselves.  I had a pager of one David Klopper, with which I contacted Lafras Luitingh.  I knew him as Louis Yssel and I had a pager by which I contacted him, which was registered in the name of David Klopper.  I believe it was to establish a cut-off point.  And I think that is also the reason why I was handled in such isolation, as an individual unit, I alone.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why, if you were going to be merely a hitman, why were you not treated like Peaches or Hardien?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I don't know, I cannot explain it.  I don't know if they were looking for someone who would be a conscious member, but would function on his own, given my background.  I had a police background, I knew how to circumvent investigations, I knew how to get out of situations.  I'd managed to get out of many tight spots in my lifetime and it was well known.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've mentioned Badenhorst as running the DCC, was he the only person in DCC that you came across, or were there others?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, at a certain stage I also had liaison with Brig Tol Botha, he was the Head of DCC, but Gen Witkop Badenhorst was the overall Commander of Military Intelligence.  Military Intelligence, viewed in general, had various branches and some of the branches were overt, others were covert and underground structures, but Brig Tolletjie Botha was generally in command, then there were Col At Nel and Geoffrey Price who was a Major, and as I've already stated there was Col Gerrie Borman, and Rich Verster.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether Aitchison is still alive?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, but I doubt it, I myself doubt whether he is still alive.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why would that be?