Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, in view of the delays relating to the transport of the prisoners in the first applications which were set down, we are ready to proceed with the matters of Ditini Thyido and Zwelitsha Mkhulutha.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Mathana are you ready to begin?

ADV MATHANA: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are the applicants going to give evidence through an interpreter?

ADV MATHANA: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What language will they be speaking?

ADV MATHANA: Xhosa Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you calling first.

ADV MATHANA: I call upon applicant Ditini Thyido, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sisi, swear him in.

DITINI THYIDO: (sworn states)

SISI KHAMPEPE: You can sit down.

ADV MATHANA: You are the applicant in this matter.

JUDGE WILSON: I suggest that the microphone be moved over to be in front of the applicant who is giving evidence rather than the other one.

ADV MATHANA: Thank you sir.  You are the applicant in this matter and you are now appearing before this Committee in order to give evidence relating to the act for which you were convicted and the circumstances under which you committed that act?  You have prepared a statement which I propose you read out to the Committee relating to this incident.  You may proceed.

DITINI THYIDO: My full names are Ditini Thyido from Khayelitsha, Western Cape.  At the moment I am serving my service in Brandvlei in Worcester prison - a 9 year sentenced that I was sentenced on the 15th of December 1993.
	My charges are as follows:  murder, seven year sentence, attempted murder, two years, to be in possession of ammunition, one year.  This took place at Site B in Khayelitsha in 1992.  I was a member of the South African National Community Organisation.
	This organisation was to protect the rights of the residents.  This started because it was necessary that the community should have the representatives because they were actually against the Councillors.
	At that time our municipality who was being forced upon us was ...

INTERPRETER: Can you please read a little bit slower so that the interpreters can be able to interpret.

DITINI THYIDO: The government of the day was not prepared at all to see to the needs of the communities because they actually wanted us to be under the leadership of those Councillors.
	The government wanted to ensure that we have the Internal Stability Unit in our townships.  Since the police intended to protect the municipality and their Councillors, they were always patrolling in the locations, day and night.
	The residents noted that the police intentions were mainly to divide the intentions of the residents who did not support the municipality at the time.  They initially started by prosecuted SANCO members.  The intention was to demoralise the SANCO leaders so that they did not fight for the rights of the community.
	And that is when SANCO took a decision that it had to establish a group that was going to protect the residents.  Thereafter SANCO established these Self Defence Units.  After a while I was appointed as one of the leaders of the Self Defence Unit in the region of Site B in Khayelitsha.
	Our duty was to protect the residents who did not support the municipality of the time.  Since the ISU was being used to threaten people, we were forced to find ourselves weapons which were the same as theirs so that we could protect ourselves from attacks.
	That is where the war started between the ISU and the SDU.  The amount of attacks upon the homes of the leaders of the SDU increased.  Their houses were burnt by unknown people at night so that in order to arm members of the Self Defence Unit, money was collected from the residents of Site B to buy weapons.
	This money was collected by the leaders of SANCO.  Bongi Mpisane was one of those leaders who collected money.  That made it very clear to us that we were in a war situation between the police and the Self Defence Units.  The police who were assisted by a group of Koevoet members.
	As time went by there were rumours that the people who were collecting money were using the money for their own personal gain in stead of forwarding the original mission.
	Bongi Mpisane was one of those.  The use of money in this way was not allowed and that led to disagreements between SANCO and the people who were collecting the money and using it for their own use.
	These people who were affected or were involved, broke away, thereafter there were rumours that those breakaways from the SDU like Bongi Mpisane, started to work with the police.  We noticed that the police had excessive information about members of the Self Defence Units and where they could be found.
	We realised that the meetings of the Self Defence Units and our plans were known to the police in detail.  The amount of attacks on the homes of the leaders of the Self Defence Units increased.  It was easy for them to be arrested by the police of the Internal Stability Unit.
	Those members who tried to escape, were shot.

INTERPRETER: We are going to ask once again that you please slow down.  We also have to write down what you are saying and the interpreters cannot interpret because you are reading too fast.

DITINI THYIDO: Because there were people who were close to Bongi, we would hear from them about the meetings between him and the other breakaway members from SANCO and people who were suspected of being members of the ISU.
	We then realised that the aims of the  SDU were being defeated because of the co-operation between these people and the ISU.  SANCO then took a decision that plans had to be made so that Bongi and the others could be won over to the side of the residents once again.
	On a particular day before the 29th of August 1992, it was rumoured that Bongi Mpisane and his supporters were going to meet a members or certain members of the Internal Stability Unit as usual.  The leaders of the Self Defence Units and I decided that that meeting should be attacked.
	The day and venue were still unknown to us, we decided that we had to go and visit Mpisane soon with the intention to attempt to negotiate with him so that he could come back to us.
	It was also attempted to regain the money which we lost which he collected and spent.  In order to win him back over, we intended for him to tell us the date, time and venue of the meeting between them and the members of the ISU so that we could attack them and if Mpisane was going to refuse to cooperate with us, we were going to force him to lead us to where the meeting between them and the ISU was going to be.
	On the 29th of August 1992 the leaders of SANCO chose myself, Zwelitsha Mkhulutha and Maliqole Mtsange for the abovementioned purpose.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I am sorry to interrupt, but I wonder if this applicant can once again be told to read his statement a little more slowly.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mathana, if you want us to have any regard to what your applicant is saying, you will tell him that and explain to him.  It is impossible to keep a note of what he is says and he just burbles on.  Will you please explain to him in detail he is doing himself no good persisting as he is.

CHAIRPERSON: You have a choice Mr Mathana of putting questions to him that would elicit the answers that you want him to give and hand in his statement if he swears to it on oath.  Do you understand.  So that statement would be in the form of an affidavit which could be handed in and then you can then lead him, put questions to him so that he can answer those questions.  It is becoming difficult to cope with the situation as things are at present.

ADV MATHANA: Very well Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: If he can pause after each sentence, just pause after each sentence.

ADV MATHANA: Please sir, when you read, could you just pause after each sentence, just pause very briefly after each sentence.