Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR PIGOU: Are you saying that there was absolutely no conversation whatsoever amongst people there about the circumstances which lead to the house being attacked and burnt?

<UNKNOWN>: No.

MR PIGOU: Do you recall an incident in October of 1988 that would be two months after you had moved to the house, I believe the date is October 16th when a man by the name of Tsoli Dlamini was shot dead?

<UNKNOWN>: I don't remember.

MR PIGOU: So, just to clarify there was no discussion also at the house about the circumstances around the death of Mr Tsoli Dlamini?

<UNKNOWN>: No.

MR PIGOU: I would like to move to the circumstances around Mr Lolo Sono . . . (indistinct) that you have described in the affidavit that you have presented to us, do you have any knowledge of an incident that took place on the 9th November which is three or four days before the date that you have given in relation to the assault on Lolo Sono in your affidavit concentrating on Lolo Sono, Paragraph 9, Page 2, you say that the date of that was the 12th or the 13th November 1988. I want to refer to an incident that occurred on the 9th of November 1988 at the house of Mr Jerry Richardson.
 Do you have any information about what happened on that day, at Jerry Richardson's house?

<UNKNOWN>: No.

MR PIGOU: Was Mr Richardson, when you arrived and stayed at the Mandela household, the head coach of the football team?

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct.

MR PIGOU: Was he living at the house at the time at Mrs Mandela's house.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes. When I arrived he was living there.

MR PIGOU: During the time that, between the time that you arrived in August 1988 and the incident of the 12th and 13th November, the assault that you have alleged at Winnie Mandela's house was Mr Richardson arrested?

<UNKNOWN>: At which time?

MR PIGOU: Between the time that you arrived at the house in July or August 1988 well, we would presume it would be August because Mrs Mandela had already moved house and the date given in your affidavit as the dates of the assault of Mr Lolo Sono was Mr Richardson arrested?

<UNKNOWN>: I have know knowledge thereof.

MR PIGOU: In your affidavit you have indicated that there was an assault on Mr Sono that you witnessed, now, Mrs Mandela has said that and I can quote, "I have been asked a question by Mr Vally are you aware of the allegation by Mr Katiza Cebukhulu to the affect that you gave instructions for Mr Lolo to be killed, . . . (indistinct) be killed" she responded that that was ridiculous, this is Page 124 of the first transcript of the In Camera Hearing.

<UNKNOWN>: Page what?

MR PIGOU: Sorry, not in your record I think, your lawyer will have a record of the transcript of the public hearing, she is saying that that is a ridiculous allegation, are you maintaining that that is a ridiculous allegation or sorry, are you maintaining that that is not a ridiculous allegation.

<UNKNOWN>: She is lying.

MR PIGOU: In your affidavit to the Commission, you have said in Paragraph 17, Page 4, that after having come back from Mr Sono's house we drove back to her house, I left the car and she remained inside the car.
 Paragraph 18 "The car was driven away with Lolo Sono still inside and silent, I never saw him again". In Katiza's Journey there is another version, you say that "We went back to Winnie's house", Page 13 of Katiza's Journey, "We went back to Winnie's house because the documents were not found, Winnie ordered Lolo to be killed", Winnie said "Take him away" it was her order to kill, Richardson and the others took him away he has never been seen since. 
 Could you tell the Commission which of the two versions, the one where you left the vehicle and the vehicle was driven away or the version in the book which says you went into the house and Winnie ordered Lolo to be killed and Richardson took him away. Which of the two versions is the version which actually happened?

<UNKNOWN>: It's the statement in my affidavit.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.
 I would just like to ask quickly also about in terms of Lolo Sono incident, you say that Jerry Richardson was present when you went to the house of Mr Nicodemus Sono. Can you recall where he was sitting in the Kombi?

<UNKNOWN>: At the back seat.

MR PIGOU: So he was sitting on the back seat with Lolo Sono?

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct.

MR PIGOU: Did he speak at all during the conversation between Mrs Mandela and Mr Sono, was there any conversation from either Mr Richardson or yourself or any of the other members present?

<UNKNOWN>: No. We did not speak.

MR PIGOU: I would just like to go to the allegation which is forms a chapter of the book in Katiza's Journey, the entrapment of Paul Verryn, and I would like to ask you whether you maintain the version which is contained in this book that Xoliswa Falati is somehow in on this whole decision to bring down Paul Verryn that there was some sort of conspiracy between Mrs Mandela and Xoliswa Falati, do you maintain that version?

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson, I haven't read the whole book myself, I have read the chapter that I think Mr Pigou is referring to, that is not my impression of what is said in the book, perhaps the witness can be first asked to confirm with that whether that in fact is the version.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to read a portion that would confirm your interpretation?

MR PIGOU: Thank you. I am going to actually try and find it, I am sorry, the actual page number is not with me in my notes there but my colleague Mr Vally will look for it and I will move on for the moment, or perhaps I could just ask instead of that whether you believe or whether you have alleged that Xoliswa Falati was part of that or indeed when you told Ms Falati what had happened, that this was the first time that she had any knowledge of this?

<UNKNOWN>: Could you repeat your question?

MR PIGOU: Yes, what I am trying to find out is that Mr Cebukhulu is whether you think that there was some sort of an arrangement between Xoliswa Falati and Mrs Mandela, in connection with you reporting to Xoliswa Falati?

CHAIRPERSON: If you listen on your head set listen to the voice that comes from the head set so that you can understand. There is a button at the side to adjust your volume.

MR PIGOU: Would you like me to repeat the question Mr Cebukhulu?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

MR PIGOU: I am just trying to establish whether, because my understanding of that particular chapter was that there was some sort of arrangement between Mrs Mandela and Xoliswa Falati in connection with your operation to go and trap Paul Verryn on Mrs Mandela's instructions. Was Mrs Falati involved in this conspiracy that you are talking about that is between you and Mrs Mandela?
 I am sorry, I didn't get a response.

<UNKNOWN>: He says he doesn't know.

MR PIGOU: I would like to move now to the past the assaults and the stabbing incident although perhaps I should just put in for the record that when we asked Mrs Mandela about the stabbing incident her response in Page 102 of the Section 29, 2nd Hearing,

<UNKNOWN>: Which date, Mr Pigou?

MR PIGOU: 2nd Chapter 13th October. That it is lunacy. That this allegation is lunacy that you did not witness this incident. Are you maintaining, Mr Cebukhulu that you actually saw Mrs Mandela stab Stompie Sepei.

<UNKNOWN>: I saw Mrs Mandela, if I was lying, I think I need to be examined.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. Are you aware at all of the incidents which lead to the attempted murder of Mr Laratoria Effanay on the 3rd January 1989?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

MR PIGOU: Could you tell us what your knowledge is of that, because if my understanding is correct you were living at Mrs Mandela's house again by this stage, on the 3rd January.

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct.

MR PIGOU: Were you involved in the attach on Mr Laratoria Effanay?

<UNKNOWN>: No reply.