Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: How do you feel about this amnesty application,what is your feeling as the wife of a person who was killed inthis fashion?

ANSWER: I am very hurting because I suffered so muchbecause of the loss of my husband, he's the person who was takingcare of me and he left with me with children.   If it was notof this people he could have been alive today.   What should Ido with his children?

<UNKNOWN>: We understand that it's very difficulty foryou.

CHAIRPERSON: How many children did you have?

ANSWER: I have three children sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How old are they?

ANSWER: The first born in 18 years old and is doing Std10.  The second born is 11 years old, he's doing Std 4.   Theone who he left whilst he was still a young boy has two
1. years /...
MR CURRIN 442 M MAKOPE
years.

MR CURRIN: : When you say he's two years, what do you meanby that, how old is he now?   Your husband disappeared on 15 July1987.

ANSWER: The last one was born in 1987 on 15, 16 June.

<UNKNOWN>: So he is now about 10 years old?

ANSWER: She has completed nine years in June.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you, and how do you feel about the amnestyapplication, the fact that the applicants are asking this Committeeto grant them amnesty.   How do you feel about that?

ANSWER: I'm not accepting that well because those peoplecould have asked forgiveness long before.   For them to ask forgivenessnow I don't understand, they could have come to me and tell mewhat they have done, maybe I could have heard another alternative,but now I'm hurting after hearing what has happened.

<UNKNOWN>: They have never come to you personally?

ANSWER: No sir.

<UNKNOWN>: When and where did you hear about their amnestyapplication for the first time?

ANSWER: I started to learn about the application on TV.

<UNKNOWN>: When did you hear for the first time that yourhusband had been killed?

ANSWER: I read about it on the City Press on 28 January1996.

<UNKNOWN>: What did you think had happened to your husbandbefore you read that in the newspaper?

ANSWER: I didn't know exactly what happened, we werejust looking for him and no knowing where but I kept on askingmyself questions as well, if he's still alive why doesn't he
1. come /...
MR CURRIN 443 M MAKOPE
come or somebody see him?

<UNKNOWN>: How did you feel when you heard that he hadbeen killed by the police, by the security police?

ANSWER: I'm not able to explain.

<UNKNOWN>: I think you have explained.   I have no furtherquestions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN
EXAMINATION BY CHAIRMAN

<UNKNOWN>: What work did your husband do?

ANSWER: He was an undertaker working for his brothersmortuary.

<UNKNOWN>: Where?

ANSWER: In Mamelodi sir.

<UNKNOWN>: The vehicle, the motor car that you say hedrove, was that his own vehicle?

ANSWER: That's his car sir.

<UNKNOWN>: The house in which you lived, is that yourhouse?

ANSWER: That's our house sir.

<UNKNOWN>: Has it been paid for?

ANSWER: No it's a rental house sir.

<UNKNOWN>: Who pays for the education of your children?

ANSWER: It's Andrew's parents who are now pensioners.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Makope I'm just going to put this to youand I want your reaction, if you want to give a reaction.   TheColt Gallant motor vehicle that my client has testified aboutis part of the Mitsubishi range of motor vehicles, it's the samecompany that manufactures it.   I'm putting that to you as a fact,can you comment on it?
1. ANSWER: /...
MR DU PLESSIS 444 M MAKOPE

ANSWER: Our car, we had a white, a cream white car whichis (indistinct) Mitsubishi.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Makope, you through the statement of MrCurrin you admitted that your husband was politically active andthat he was a member of the ANC, is that correct?

ANSWER: That's true sir.

<UNKNOWN>: You also testified that you don't know whathe did in the political sphere, is that correct?

ANSWER: That's true.

<UNKNOWN>: So Mrs Makope am I right in saying that whatMr Van Vuuren and Captain Hechter testified about what your husbanddid, that you can't dispute that?

ANSWER: Well what did they say he was doing?

<UNKNOWN>: They said, their evidence that they gave wasevidence that, well they testified that they had evidence thatyour husband was a trained terrorist, that he was involved inlandmine explosions, that he was involved in serious terror deeds,that he was involved in petrol bombings and other riot-relatedacts.

ANSWER: That's not true, where did he do those thingswithout my knowledge?

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Makope I'm asking you if you know anythingabout these things, and you testified that you don't know aboutit is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes I said I didn't know.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE WILSON

<UNKNOWN>: Had your husband ever left you for any periodof time before his disappearance?

ANSWER: That year he didn't leave me and the year before
1. he /...
JUDGE WILSON 445 M MAKOPE
he used to leave many times and he used to tell me that he's goingto his brother.

<UNKNOWN>: How long did he leave for?

ANSWER: Plus/minus two to three days.

<UNKNOWN>: No longer than that?

ANSWER: Not longer than that sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON
EXAMINATION BY MS KHAMPEPE

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Makope did you know of Jackson Make orHarold Sefola?

ANSWER: I don't know Jackson Make, I only know, I onlylearned about him on the newspaper.   Harold Sefola I used totake him as Andrew's brother because they were always together.  He was always with his brother, with Andrew at the mortuarywhere the brother is living to some business.

<UNKNOWN>: Was Mr Sefola then assisting Mr Makope at themortuary?

ANSWER: That's true.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE
EXAMINATION BY CHAIRMAN

<UNKNOWN>: When your husband worked in this mortuary whatwere his hours of work?

ANSWER: He was starting at 8 o'clock then he was closingoff at 6 o'clock.

<UNKNOWN>: Weekends?

ANSWER: On Saturdays they were always busy and around4 they were through with their work and then on Sundays when theyare not working, he was opening in the morning at 8 o'clock andthen come back at about 9.

<UNKNOWN>: 9 in the morning?

ANSWER: Yes 9am sir.
1.

<UNKNOWN>: /...
CHAIRMAN 446 M MAKOPE

<UNKNOWN>: His brother who was in Botswana....(questionends in mid-sentence)...

ANSWER: I know that he was working with him in the mortuaryand that he was always arrested by the police, for what he wasdoing in Botswana I am not sure.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY CHAIRMAN
EXAMINATION BY MS KHAMPEPE

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Makope I just want to understand your evidence.  The brother who was in Botswana that your husband used to visit,is he the one who was running the mortuary prior to...

ANSWER: Yes that's the owner of the mortuary.

<UNKNOWN>: ...the country for Botswana?

ANSWER: I believe it's around 1978 or 79, I don't rememberwell.

<UNKNOWN>: From 78 until 87 was he staying in Botswanapermanently?

ANSWER: No he was not coming back home he was alwaysin Botswana.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE WILSON

<UNKNOWN>: Can I ask one more question?   Do you knowhow old your husband was when he disappeared?

ANSWER: He was 37 years old.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
1. MR /...
MR CURRIN 447 ADDRESS

MR CURRIN: : Mr Chairman, on behalf of Lizzie Sefola beforewe call her as a witness we would like to place on record thathe disappeared from home, from his home in Witbank on 16 July198...(side 1 of tape ends)....very little about his activitiesbecause he was secretive about what he did.   According to MrsSefola he was never on any single occasion arrested or detainedby the police prior to his disappearance and assassination.  I would like to call her to talk about her feelings and aboutthe process.   Thank you.
LIZZIE SEFOLA (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN