Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MR MOLOHLANYE: I'm talking about this witness.

MR MALAN: Sorry, yes, she did say 79.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So according to your sister's evidence, she ran away, as well as your father.  How is that possible?

MR MALAN: Really, I mean this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I?  Mr Molohlanye, we don't want to interrupt your cross-examination, you also have to bear in mind that you are cross-examining a victim.  It is our duty to ensure that that cross-examination is conducted in the most decorum of manners, and we have to be compassionate to victims.
	We will allow you to cross-examine as long as that cross-examination will be to issues which area relevant to questions directly affecting the evidence that your clients have tendered.  Now if I recall the evidence already tendered by your clients, this is not really the evidence that was traversed by your clients, unless of course you are laying a foundation to attack the evidence of Ms Happy Cele, as being false.  And if that is so, we would request you to quickly proceed to completing laying that kind of foundation, otherwise we will not allow questions for the sake of being put to witness, unless they are material to issues that we have to deal with in deciding whether to grant or refuse amnesty.  
	If you are laying a foundation to try and show this Committee that the evidence tendered by Ms Cele is untruthful and should not be relied upon, we will allow you, but also bear in mind that even that should be evidence that is directly fundamental to us finding whether they qualify for amnesty or not.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson.  The point that I was trying to make is that it was put to the witness whether her father could run, because he was pursued from his house, according to the evidence, and what I wanted to know is whether - because her sister in her own, her own sister said her father could run.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let's go back to the judgment.  Truly Mr Molohlanye, you are conducting the case to the best of your abilities, we understand that, but look at the evidence that is - look at the judgment.  This is the judgment.  This is the judgment, not of Ms Happy Cele, but it's the judgment of Monica Cele.
	That being the case, the judgment is merely saying - this is now a summary of the evidence of Monica, that was given before the Presiding Judge during the criminal trial.  The judgment is not saying this man could run, the judgment is merely saying, when the second group approached, she ran away, as well as her father.  What does that mean?  
	If you run away, does it mean that you can be a, the fastest runner, or does it mean that you simply leave the place and run as fast as you can, whether you are 80 or you are 90?  What are you trying to show by referring to this portion of the judgment?

MR MOLOHLANYE: The witness had said her father could not run, therefore according to the evidence that was led by Roy Cele, they pursued the people who attacked him at his place and these people were running and it was put to him whether a 79 year old person can run and then he said that he was just merely in front running.  Therefore, I take the statement made by - evidence led by Roy Cele and the paragraph, the line that I took in paragraph 10, that Mr Amos Cele was able to run - rather, he was not fetched at his house, as is alleged by the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you know, that summary of facts by the judge at the criminal trial is not anything but a summary, and it's a summary of the evidence led by Monica, and it merely says Monica escaped together with her father.  Obviously you can't escape unless there is some measure of running, but that does not in any way in my mind, display quite vividly the extent of the speed that was gained in each and every step taken by the late Amos Cele then.
	So it wouldn't make any difference in my mind, whether he ran or what.  All that I interpret this to be saying is to indicate and suggest that they escaped, not through hiding, but the escaped through running away.  But as to the speed and the ability of somebody to be able to run as fast as a young man of 20, when he is being pursued, I don't think you can make anything out of this.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I will not prevent you, I think that's a matter that you can take up when you address us.  When it's time for legal argument you can take this issue up.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you.
	My next question will be, as you've said that Roy Cele's house was very far from yours, I'd like to know how far was Thulani's house from yours?

MS S H CELE: Very near.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you need to re-examine?

MS THABETHE: No, Madam Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cele, are you in a position to give this Committee an idea of what you think might have made Roy Cele and Thulani to kill your father?  Are you in a position to give us a motive?  Do you know of any motive that might have made them to do this kind of an act?  We have evidence that Thulani was in fact the grandson of your father and that Roy Cele was your brother.

MS S H CELE: I am not sure about Thulani, as to why he would go to such an extent of killing my father, but Roy I am certain why, or he can do that, he can kill my father, because they were children who didn't like my father because of many other incidents which occurred before and things that they've done to my father.  I am not sure about Thulani, as to what caused Thulani to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: We heard evidence before that your father was a member of IFP and that sometimes meetings will be held at his house or his place, do you know anything of this sort?

MS S H CELE: No, I don't know and I've never heard anything in connection with politics that my father was involved with.  We will hear about politics in the radio.  We didn't have any knowledge about this, and my father was never involved.

CHAIRPERSON: To you knowledge, you don't know of any meeting which was held in his house,  about IFP meetings?

MS S H CELE: No, never.  Never once.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, do you know if Roy or Thulani were members of the ANC, or any organisation which was an ANC alliance?

MS S H CELE: No, I am certain that they don't know anything about politics, it's something that they don't know and at the time when this thing happened they didn't know anything about politics.  Maybe they heard about politics later.

CHAIRPERSON: You said there were conflicts between Roy and your father, were these in connection with family disputes or what?

MS S H CELE: They were family disputes, it wasn't anything that involves neighbours or any other person.  They were strictly within the family.

MR MALAN: Chair, may I just for the record, put it to Ms Cele, that Thulani of course in his application for amnesty here, did not apply for the murder of Amos Cele, he in fact denies any involvement.  The question was put to you whether you can think of any reason why Thulani or Roy would have killed.  But just for the record, so you have knowledge, Thulani denies any involvement in that killing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Ms Cele, for coming forward and assisting us.  Thank you.  Now you can step down.
	Ms Thabethe and Mr Molohlanye, I notice that the time is almost half past one.  Maybe this will be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment and if we can also do like we did yesterday, take a 30 minute lunch adjournment and reconvene at 2 o'clock.  I hope that will be in order.  I would request members of the Correctional Services, who are providing food for the applicants, to try and also accommodate us in making sure that the food is provided as quickly as possible to enable us to reconvene at 2 o'clock.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.