Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Those were the things that were being burnt in that fire.

MR BERGER: And the weapons that were confiscated by the police were all thrown into one pile and taken away, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The police confiscated weapons that they found inside the hostel and they said they are taking these for ballistic testing.

MR BERGER: Who was Mr Themba Khosa to give an order that the stolen property and the bloodied clothes be burnt, how come he had the authority to give such an order?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He is also a member of the IFP, and he is an elder, so people should listen to him when he speaks.

MR BERGER: Is that when he gave that order, it was an order from the leader of the Youth Brigade in the province, and that's why it was carried out?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is also possible.

MR BERGER: And you knew that at the time, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not know it.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, it's not a requirement for amnesty, but you were led on this right at the beginning of your evidence, you said, well through your counsel you said that you were sorry.   Now, at page 41, paragraph 15, you say
"To conclude my statement, I would like to say to the community of Boipatong and to the residents who lost their loved ones, I am very sorry and I am asking them to forgive me because today I am behind bars and I realise what a dreadful thing we did that night."
Are you sorry because you are behind bars, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, I explained this earlier on, that I am sorry, not just because I am behind bars, but even if I was free, had I had such an opportunity I would have come before this Committee and said the same thing.

MR BERGER: Why did it take you so long to say that you were sorry?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As a convicted person, I cannot just go to the TRC or Mr Tutu, Bishop Tutu, and say that I am seeking amnesty for the people that I killed.   I have to follow certain procedures, like acquiring legal representation and so forth, to be able to apply for amnesty.

MR BERGER: You see, Mr Mthembu, I want to put it to you that the only reason you are sorry is because you've been convicted, isn't that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, it is not the truth.   Why are my co-accused who are not in prison also here?

MR BERGER: All of your co-accused who were convicted are the ones applying for amnesty.   Those who were not convicted, or who were never caught, are not saying that they're sorry, they haven't come forward, and isn't that where you would be... (intervention).

MR BRINK: Sorry, Mr Chairman, again to interrupt, is this getting us anywhere, because we know that remorse is not a requirement in terms of the Act, so it doesn't really take it further, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps Mr Berger can tell us why it is relevant?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm asking these questions because my clients have asked me to ask these questions, and if I... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: But is it relevant?

MR BERGER: I prefaced it by saying that it's not a requirement, but if I can then, on a point of relevance, say, Mr Mthembu, if you are truly sorry for what you've done, would you be prepared to sit down with your co-accused and compile a list of the names and present whereabouts, if known, or if the names only, then that will also do, of the 300 people who participated in the attack on Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know how to respond to that, sir, because we do not see each other often, I am in one place, they are at another.

MR BERGER: I'm inviting you, during the lunch breaks, and on your own and then to come together to compile a list of all the people, the 300 and more people who were involved in that attack on Boipatong, and the reason I'm inviting you to do this is because I've been instructed to tell you, on behalf of the victims, that they will not begin to consider forgiving you until you tell the whole truth, and the whole truth includes the names of all the people involved in the attack.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I understand that you are inviting me, but what I and my co-accused think may be different, and we are not in one area, we do not see each other often, even during the lunch breaks we must do other things, like eating.

MR BERGER: During the lunch breaks, and this has been my last comment to you, Mr Mthembu, during the lunch breaks, you and your co-applicants can get together, if you are truly sorry, and put together a list of all of the people who were involved.   After all, it's a requirement for amnesty that you do so.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I understand what you're saying.   In other words, you are telling me that I and my co-accused are not here to seek forgiveness, you only realise that we are here to seek forgiveness only when you invite us to do what you have suggested.   Is that what you are trying to tell me, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: What I am trying to tell you, Mr Mthembu, is that you have not told the truth about what happened on that night.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: If that is the case, Mr Berger, you are saying this, I hear it from you, you must have knowledge about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, listen carefully to the question.   What Mr Berger is saying to you is that you've not been telling the truth to this Committee.   What do you say to that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, as I am here, I am here to tell the truth.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I see that I have overrun my mandate by eight minutes.   I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Berger.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR BERGER: Chairperson, can I also place on record that, because Miss Cambanis does not have a microphone, she says that she has no questions at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not a problem, you can swop seats, you can go back to where she's sitting and then she can come forward.   Very well, yes Miss Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chairperson, I confirm that I have no questions at this stage for this applicant.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, could you, what is the stage you're talking about, madam?

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, I didn't, I didn't ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well the witness is here, so what we're saying, if you have a question, you've got to put them now.

MS CAMBANIS: Chairperson, I do not have questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, excepting of course that you're putting a rider that if there is anything which arises from what the Committee might have to put to him?

MS CAMBANIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the qualification?

MS CAMBANIS: That is the qualification, and if the need arises for recall during adjournments obviously.  Thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, do you have any questions?

MR MALINDI: Mr Chairperson, I have about three questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Go ahead.

MR MALINDI: Mr Mthembu, when you look at page 3 of the bundle, under paragraph 11, you give the names of Mr Thebi Mkhize and Mr Quanqua as the people who gave you instructions to conduct this attack.   What authority did Mr Mkhize and Mr Quanqua have to give these instructions?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I explained earlier on, sir, that Damara was a person residing at Kwamadala, whom we respected and listened to, and furthermore our people had been killed in the township, I think that is why they proposed this attack.

MR MALINDI: So the reason you obeyed his orders is that he is a person that you respected and not that he was authorised maybe by a certain organisation to give those instructions?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As an IFP member, that is the reason why I listened to him.

MR MALINDI: Could you please look at page 13 of that bundle under paragraph 18.   The first sentence reads as follows
"The attack on the 17th of June 1992 in Boipatong was not approved by the IFP leadership."
Do you confirm that statement?