Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

WENDY ORR: I've been ask to say again that we apologize that there aren't enough headsets.  There are more on the way for tomorrow and please share, it you do understand or if you want to sit close to someone, you can - two people can listen off one headset, because we really would like as many people as possible to be able to understand what's going on.
 Ms Sishuba and Ms Phike welcome, it's been a long day I know and thank you for sitting patiently and waiting for your turn.  Can I ask you both to stand to take the oath please.
LIZZY PHIKE Duly sworn states
BONISWA SISHUBA                      Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: Thank you very much, I'll now hand you over to Rev Xundu, who's going to lead your evidence.

REV XUNDU: I great you, I'm going to start with you, Ntemi.  It is clear that the - in 1985 during the lasts months of 1985 was year of death here in Mbekweni, even all over the country.  The conflict among the organizations - black organizations.  
I want to ask you to give us a picture that will explain to us what happened to you and the manner in which it happened, so that we can be able to understand and ask relevant questions.  Thank you.

MS PHIKE: In 1985 - I can't remember the date

REV XUNDU: Is that Lizzy?

MS PHIKE: It's Boniswa.

REV XUNDU: I wanted to start with Ntemi.

MS PHIKE: Ntemi is not here, it's Lizzy.  In 1985 on the 27th of October I was arrested - the police came, the whites came to fetch me at home, they knocked and I open the door.  Just before we left, they told me that they are arresting me under the State of Emergency.  It was Mr Groenewald and the others.  He said I must take my clothes with me.     
 When we were in town, they put me in the police station, I was interrogated by Mr Le Roux.  He asked me about the organizations that I was involved in.  I told them where I was working, he asked me about the other organizations.  I told him that I'm in the women's organizations, I'm in the civic association.  
He wanted to ask about - wanted to know about Mr O'Grady - this Mr O'Grady was the manager of RFF.   I told her that as a person who is representing the workers.  If there's a problem I usually go to this person.  He left me along. 
I spent something like a week - something like two weeks.  I was taken to Pollsmoor Prison.  When I arrived there, there were other people who were also arrested under the State of Emergency which was - which were the people who were to be arrested for fourteen days.  Detective Groenewald arrived, he told me that he was not going to interrogate me, but  he  wanted  me  to  work  with  them  -  to co-operate against the people of Mbekweni.  Because they knew very well that the people of Mbekweni had confidence in me and if I co-operate, they are going to release me - they were going to release me.
 I told them that it's clear that you are not going to release me because I'm not going to do what you want me to do.  You can keep me as long as you like, he said I can go back to my cell.  I went back to my cell.

REV XUNDU: You went back to the cell?

MS PHIKE: Yes

REV XUNDU: But in your statement you say you heard over the radio that there was a conflict between the AZAPO and the UDF.

MS PHIKE: Yes, there was that problem that the people were fighting  the youth of AZAPO and UDF were fighting.  So it was not really nice in that prison.

REV XUNDU: Other they saying it's PAC.  Was this one organization or what?  Was it PAC against UDF - were they working together?

MS PHIKE: AZAPO and UDF were working together because it was youth and their parents.  It was not nice now here at the - at the - in this prison.  Fortunately my cousin's sister arrived on a Christmas Day to visit - to visit me.  She also told me about what was happening in the township, about the AZAPO, the PAC's and the Boers who were - who wanted the youth - were collecting the youth.  
And they also wanted Ntemi.  I was worried because even my husband was once harassed by this white boers.  They even said that my husband was lying it he says he doesn't know anything about them.  They said they had the right to ask for whatever they want.  I told them to take Ntemi to - to - I told them to take Ntemi to Gugulethu.  My cousin took Ntemi to Gugulethu so that the police couldn't find her.
At that time Monghe Zheninze was shot dead by police, my friend - Maggie  Wilson - took Ntemi to Cape Town - Gugulethu.  After a day one policeman came to me, I was told that I had a visitor -  I was surprised that I had this kind of a visitor.  I'm not sure whether this investigator was Goodxhi or what.
He said to me sit down, he told me that your child had passed away, he was killed by the AZAPO and UDF.  I told him that he was lying, they are the people who killed my child, who was ...[intervention]

REV XUNDU: Where did this take place -  what did this take place?

MS PHIKE: He said to me call all your children, I mentioned all those who were  with me Freddy, David and Ntemi.  And he said Ntemi was the one, I was not well since after that - I started crying.  Captain wanted to know what happened, the Detective told him that her child is dead.  He asked him why could he tell me this kind of information,  they said to  - they told them that they must release me.
 There was Jinpiece Mashalangu - Mashalangu wanted to come back - to come back to the prison instead - instead of me in and them they told him that he cannot go there in that cell because he was arrested in Cape Town and the instruction is coming from Mr Vlok from Pretoria.
 They - all their organizations tried  - made some efforts so that I could be released.  On the 1st I was released because the funeral was to be on the 2nd .  Instead on the 1st they didn't release me on the 1st, and I asked them again when are the going to - when are they going to release me because the funeral of my  child was to be on the second. 
 Later on we  were released and we buried our children.  Everything was ready and there were a lot of restrictions and they made it a point that I don't brake any - I don't - I obey all the restrictions.  I was told that all the final arrangements were done.  
 What I didn't like was the torture that we were experiencing.  The helicopter was making noise - was - the police were all over the place.  My friends who were suppose to attend the funeral and the other doctors were not allowed.

REV XUNDU: While we was still burying did the groups - the PAC and AZAPO came to - did the groups to disturb you?

MS PHIKE: No, they were just looking at us and you could see that they were enjoying our pain.  They were getting support from the police.  I asked to say something during my child's funeral, and it was clear that it's all the youth were victimized.  I asked to say something - I asked the comrades not to revenge to the AZAPO because the AZAPO's and the PAC members were informers - police informer.  They have lost their direction.  The boers that are using them, they just - they just want to distort information and turn everything to be a black on black violence.

REV XUNDU: Was there anybody who was arrested in regard - was there anybody arrested concerning the death of Ntemi?

MS PHIKE: The UDF and advice officers in charge - I used to go to them and get some more information.  They used to tell me that the other members of AZAPO are - were unavailable.  It was clear that you were just wasting time because those people - the perpetrators - disappeared.  The only person who was left behind was an old person, the others left for Cape Town. END OF TAPE 2, SIDE B...

REV XUNDU: Then after the funeral you said you were detained again.