Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, if I may raise it at this particular point.  I have received a request from the families of Mrs Konile, Mr Miya, Mr Mjobo and Mr Piet, if they could address just one or two questions to Mr Bellingan.  I would like to know what the Committee's attitude is towards that.  My personal feeling is that it may be part of the process.  I would like to know what the Committee's view is.

CHAIRPERSON: You are representing them, are you not?

UNKNOWN: That is so your, that is so Mr Chairperson, the ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of questions do they want to address personally?

UNKNOWN: Your Worship, I represent them as their legal representative.  My feeling is that these are not necessarily legal questions that relate to the merits, I think they are questions of a personal nature and I would ask that the Committee consider allowing them the opportunity to address one or two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am reluctant to turn amnesty applications into emotional incidents which are rather the type of inquiry held by the Truth and Reconciliation itself.  On the other hand, if they are here and they are literally one or two questions which they wish to, I do not want to make life difficult for them.  Can you explain to them that provided they limit their questions and it is just one or two, they will be allowed.  Do you have any objection?

MR BOOYENS: M'Lord, depending on the relevance and so on, one can understand what is going on here.  I would rely on your Lordship.  I reserve my rights to object, I will not, a right, which as your Lordship know, I do not exercise too freely.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.  I, when I discussed the matter I had indicated that should the Committee exercise the discretion in their favour that it would, at the most, be limited to one or two questions and I hope that that will be followed.  Thank you very much.  If I could then just ask Mrs Konile to come to the chair.
	To the members of the panel, this is Mrs Konile and she is the mother of Mr Zabonki Konile, one of the deceased in this particular matter.  
QUESTIONS BY MRS KONILE

MRS KONILE: I would like to ask Mr Bellingan that, whether he says me and that I am the mother of the man he killed, he killed my one and only son.  He is asking for amnesty, what does he think about me and what does he say about me as well as Konile's child and what does he say with regard to the sweeping that he was directed to do?
	I will never ever forgive Bellingan and my entire family does not want to forgive Bellingan, because he says he was doing his job, that his job was to kill people and I am through.

CHAIRPERSON: That does not really call for an answer, does it?  Is that all she wishes to say?

INTERPRETER: There is an interference with the interpreting service.

MRS KONILE: I am through.

CHAIRPERSON: Does Mr Bellingan want to make any remarks?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman, I do not want to comment at this stage.

UNKNOWN: That is all that Mrs Konile wishes to say.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS KONILE

UNKNOWN: Mr Andile Mjobo, he is the brother of Zennith Mjobo, also one of the deceased in the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he to ask questions or is he to express his families views, because that can be done after we have completed the applicant's evidence.
QUESTIONS BY MR MJOBO

MR MJOBO: I want to ask a question.
	Good afternoon Mr Bellingan.  The question I want to ask from you, as you told us that you are a Christian, have you come to ask for forgiveness or have you come to kill us even more emotionally?

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?

MR MJOBO: There is no other question that I want to ask, but I want to know whether he has to come ask for amnesty or he has come to mislead us and kill us emotionally or disturb us emotionally.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MJOBO

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is fairly clear that this is an application for amnesty.

MR MJOBO: I do not see him asking for forgiveness, because he keeps on saying that he does not remember some of the things and Mr Benting says he does remember where he was, but with him there is a lot that he does not remember.  I do not see him asking for amnesty, I think he has just come to destabilise the whole process of amnesty.  As a result, I will never ever forgive him.  He has just come to disturb us and destabilise the whole process.

CHAIRPERSON: You may go.  I am not prepared to allow further matters of this nature if this is all they have to say.  This is not asking questions.

UNKNOWN: Your Worship, if you would just permit Mrs Cynthia Ngewu, she is the mother of Christopher Piet, she had indicated to me she would want to ask a question, your Worship.
QUESTIONS BY MRS NGEWU

MRS NGEWU: I am Christopher Piet's mother.
	Mr Bellingan, at the time that you shot my son, he was dragged with the use of a rope.  Why did he have to drag my son.  As a Christian, could he not pick my son up and put him wherever he was supposed to be put?  Why did he have to drag him using a rope?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman and Madam, the reason why we did that, there was information and it was the usual practice from freedom fighters that they had a hand grenade under their bodies and to prevent that somebody gets hurt, it was the usual practice to drag that body with a rope, to turn it round and to see whether there was a hand grenade.  That was the reason why that was done and for no other reason.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's ...

MRS NGEWU: After my son had died, you still dragged him.  What do you have to say about that?

CHAIRPERSON: The question has been answered.  If you listened, he explained that the reason why they move bodies like that, from a distance with a rope, is in case there is a hand grenade under the body which will explode when the body moves. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS NGEWU

UNKNOWN: And we have one final member of the Miya family.  Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.  
QUESTIONS BY MRS MIYA

MRS MIYA: I am Jabulanie Miya's sister.
	I do not have a question personally, but there is a question from Jabulanie's daughter who is a 12 year old by now and her name is Sibusiso.  She gave me this letter this morning when she heard that I was going to attend your amnesty hearing.  
"To the police that killed my father.  Why did you kill my father and if this question is hard to say, it was not hard to kill my father."
She is asking you, the killer of her father, to answer it.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: We did not hear the question.

MRS MIYA: I will repeat the question.
"To the police that killed my father.  Why did you kill my father and if this question is hard to say it, it was not hard to kill my father."

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I was not responsible for that persons death.  So, I cannot comment on that question.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS MIYA

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, the families are indebted to you and to my colleagues as well.

MR BOOYENS: That is the evidence I intend calling, Mr Chairman.