Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR J DE CASTRO: Well as I said if I was privileged I didn't use it, I mean why.  You know I live my life like a person, I work for what I've got.  I don't steal, I don't go shooting people to earn money.  I get up in the morning, I go to work even though I am half crippled, I wake up every morning and I go to work in order to maintain my wife, my children for our needs.  That is my life, I don't go around to any organisations, be part of the organisations and do stupid things like they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Castro, what I think counsel is suggesting to you is in that the era prior to 1994 white persons were privileged in that they had the vote, they had a say in the running of the country, they could start businesses in white commercial areas and other matters of that nature.

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes we were, I must say the whites were privileged.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Would you agree with me if I say that because of that situation that you were in that position, though you work yourself up that you were in that position, you had business because you worked hard, but to the people, that is the black people, would it not have they regarded that your status in the community having business and all those things is because you happen to belong in a certain class of people, community, that is white community it's because of that?

MR MALAN: Mr Mbandazayo you can take that as common cause as far as the Committee is concerned and accepting the perspective of your clients and the policy of APLA, PAC.  Really, as far as the Committee is concerned you don't have to pursue that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	You said to the Committee that when these people entered they never said that they were APLA and they came to kill you.  Would you have expected that if people, maybe they were political motivated to do that, would say those words that we're APLA and we've come to kill you?

MR J DE CASTRO: What ... (intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Or by anything of that sort, not necessarily to say those words?

MR J DE CASTRO: Why did they mention money and lie down?  I think if you got to go and steal something from someone you got to him and you grab him and you say listen I want your money.

CHAIRPERSON: We have been told, and I think again this is common cause, that they did go there to take your money, they wanted your money but they wanted it not for their own private use but because their party had sent them to get money.

MR J DE CASTRO: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt you for a moment?  As I understand your evidence, and please you can perhaps clarify a little of what your brother told me, you have told us that you were one of the most prosperous businesses in Wesselsbron?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well yes in the Free State.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) and that means you made a lot of money everyday?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And people, anybody keeping reasonable watch would realise that this was a very profitable business.  They would see the customers going in and out all the time?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And your brother has told us that there was about R200 000,00 in the shop at that time?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But he also told us and I think you agree with this in what you've said, that you're usually closed, by nine o'clock you're usually closed, the only two people there would be you and him?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And would it be your assumption to clear out the tills, to take the money to put it into the safe and things of that nature?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's what people could be expecting at about nine o'clock, to find two of you there looking after the money?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us that there was only money, as I understand, you told us that there was only money in one of the tills, the other two were empty?

MR J DE CASTRO: Two were already empty yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Had they already been cleared out?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And had that money been put in a safe place?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: So the closing process had already started?

MR J DE CASTRO: There was another till which my wife was working on that till, it was still full of money but unfortunately I couldn't get it open at that stage so I saw the robbers shooting at the till trying ... (inaudible - end of tape 1).

CHAIRPERSON: ... (Inaudible) and that the robbers could only get at one till?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And they didn't realise, or it seems they didn't realise that there was lots of money in the safe and your brother said underneath the tills  ... (intervention)?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... there's money kept there?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And none of that was stolen?

MR J DE CASTRO: You see it was hidden away, you couldn't see that money, it was placed in a place where only myself or my brother knew where it is.

CHAIRPERSON: And they made a complete mess of the operation?

MR J DE CASTRO: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Instead of quietly holding you up and saying now get the money out?

MR J DE CASTRO: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: But we've been told, and I think you have also confirmed this on your evidence, that they would not have expected to find any people there at that time except the two of you?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes they did their homework, yes and ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And it was purely bad luck that the family people and friends were there?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They shouldn't have been there?

MR J DE CASTRO: They shouldn't have been there and they were there and the plan went ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Completely wrong.

MR J DE CASTRO: ... totally wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Just while we're at this point Chair please.  How many people were in the shop?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well there's five that's been killed with the three that were taken to hospital, my wife, nine, Giovani, ten and then Peter and Facility, I think we were twelve people that night at the store.

MR MALAN: Where was your wife and Giovani at that stage?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well my wife was at the till, she was getting ready to hit the till when Susan and Henk were coming to pay their goods and when they entered my wife she was standing there by the till actually and when they said "lie down", she went and she lie down in front of the till at the bottom.

MR MALAN: And Giovani?

MR J DE CASTRO: She actually hid away.

MR MALAN: And Giovani?

MR J DE CASTRO: And Giovani was on the other side by the fruit and veg side.  He went and he, he went and lie down in between the vegetable boxes.

MR MALAN: Was he the only one what you call on the other side?

MR J DE CASTRO: There was another guy there as well, his name was Frikkie.

MR MALAN: Was Frikkie one of the injured?

MR J DE CASTRO: No not at all.

MR MALAN: So who was Frikkie?

MR J DE CASTRO: He was behind the other box.

MR MALAN: No who was he, he wasn't injured or killed?

MR J DE CASTRO: No.  Frikkie he would be starting to work with my brother in-law, ...(indistinct), at the panel beater shop.

MR MALAN: I sorry I asked you who all were in the shop at that time and you said the five killed, the three heavily injured plus your wife, Giovani and ...(indistinct).

MR J DE CASTRO: And Frikkie ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: Okay so who's Frikkie?

MR J DE CASTRO: Frikkie was working for my brother in-law.

MR MALAN: So he was also in the shop?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes, he was also visiting at my brother in-law.

MR MALAN: So we're talking about twelve people.  Were there other people?

MR J DE CASTRO: No.

MR MALAN: No other black people?

MR J DE CASTRO: No, see it was already after closing time so.

MR MALAN: So Frikkie wasn't wounded either?

MR J DE CASTRO: I beg your pardon?

MR MALAN: Frikkie wasn't wounded either?