Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I think it was from October '87 up until the date when he was shot.

MR RICHARD: Now at that stage were you a member of the MK?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes I was.

MR RICHARD: And did that entail you having weapons in your flat?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes I had weapons in my flat.

MR RICHARD: And did Mr Dhlomo know that?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: He knew.

MR RICHARD: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of weapons?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I was in possession of a Makarov pistol and a Stetchem(?) and I had several grenades in my flat.

MR RICHARD: Now when it came to entering and leaving the flat what was the arrangement?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: The arrangement was that the flat, it was not registered in my real name and the other occupants of the flat even didn't know of my activities as an activist and also as an underground operative of MK and we were just as ordinary people just like them and entering, going in and going out was just as normal as possible.

MR RICHARD: Did Mr Dhlomo have his own key?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes I did make available a key for him.

MR RICHARD: And you were quite happy that he should be entrusted with that responsibility?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now how many nights a week would he spend at the flat?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Sometimes he stayed a whole week, sometimes he'll say he's going to see his gran in the township.

MR RICHARD: And how often did he go back to the township to see his family there?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Not much, I think twice or once per week or over the weekend.

MR RICHARD: Now at the time you say he was in more or less daily attendance at the DPSC, was he ever visited by anyone?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Sicelo I think he was one popular activist in the township so particularly during his days as a student activist they used to come to the office, some of his friends and colleagues at school because I knew for a fact he was a student at Pace College in Soweto.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember the names of any of his visitors?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I remember only one and who is one person who knows my brother also, Rambo.

MR RICHARD: What was Rambo's other name?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I've just forgotten, I'm not sure if he was Humphrey but I think I know the one Rambo.

MR RICHARD: And if I said Sipho Humphrey Tshabalala?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes I know the name very well.

MR RICHARD: Also known as Rambo.  Now how often would Sipho Tshabalala come?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Several times he'll come to the office, not only to Sicelo, he also had very good relationship with the late comrade Sophie Masete.

MR RICHARD: And were you aware of any relationship between Sipho and Mr Dhlomo?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Only as student activists, yes that I know.

MR RICHARD: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going on to something else?  Can I just clear up something?
	He worked for you from Monday to Fridays I gather you said?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: As a voluntary worker, but now there's also been reference of him going to school and his school friends in that he was a student at Pace College.  How did he attend school when he was working with you for five days a week?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: What I was saying, I think I said during his school days he was a student activist and Rambo, I knew him as Sicelo's friend during those days as student activist.

CHAIRPERSON: So these people were not school friends at the present time, they were from the past?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now at that stage were you aware, I think you've answered the question but I'll repeat it, why Mr Dhlomo had decided no longer to live and sleep in Soweto?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I think the problem was police harassment more than anything.

MR RICHARD: And do you remember whether he continued going to school after he came to your flat?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: No, I don't recall that.

MR RICHARD: Now during the period October, November and December, were there any events of note other than that first arrest in October that might have alarmed you about Mr Dhlomo or made you suspicious of his behaviour?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: To my level of understanding now because there was once an incident which happened at Khotso House when Security Police were coming in and an alarm rang and all of us we ran out of the office and Sicelo took the opposite direction of the entrance, the main entrance, and I went the opposite into the passage was the Black Sash Office.

MR RICHARD: I'm sorry to interrupt you, that was in January?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I was coming to the 20th January.  I mentioned the period October, November and December, not January yet.  Was there anything that might have made you suspicious or doubt or uncomfortable with Sicelo?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Not at all.

MR RICHARD: Now in January 1988, do you remember an event on the 20th, I think you begun reciting that?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes, this is the event I was just explaining and he was arrested on that day, taken to John Vorster for interrogation and I can't recall whether he was released the same day or the next day, that I can't recall.

MR RICHARD: Did he report to you what happened while he was being interrogated?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I think some of my colleagues in the office took a statement from him about the torture and stuff, of things happened to him during that period.

MR RICHARD: Now do you remember him ever having anything on his belt?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes I do.

MR RICHARD: What was it?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: He had a walkman.

MR RICHARD: Could you please describe the size and shape of this thing?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I'm not good in sizes but I'll show it in ...(indistinct) it was a size like this one, something like this in a square shape.

MR RICHARD: It has been described in resembling about the shape and size of this object which is connected to the microphone.

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Now I'm not sure but walkmans which usually people had and put there, it could be the size of this thing possibly.

MR RICHARD: Was there ever any doubt in your mind that it was anything but a walkman?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: No, not at all.

MR RICHARD: And it took cassettes which he played music to himself on?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ever see Mr Dhlomo in possession of a firearm?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: At Khotso House?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: At Khotso house I'm not sure but I don't recall any stage when I saw him with a weapon in those offices.  Even myself, I couldn't go in with a weapon during the day there.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you see him with a weapon?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: At the flat, he was staying with me.

MR RICHARD: We then come to Saturday the 23rd January 1988.  What did you do over that weekend?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Sicelo on the 22nd if I recall, which was a Friday, he left and said he was going to see his granny and I was supposed to go to a conference in Cape Town.  I was flying on Saturday morning for Cape Town and we went together to the office, and when I went back to the flat he didn't come with me, I was alone.  He slept over in Soweto the Friday and it seems on the Saturday, met up with the late comrade Sophie Masete and he was given cash of an amount of between R1 000 and
R1 500 which was supposed to come to me.  I met up with comrade Sophie afterward because we were flying together to Cape Town and she said to me that she gave Sicelo that amount of money which was supposed to come to me and since then Sicelo didn't turn up until we came back from Cape Town on Sunday and Monday morning.  It's when we heard the news that Sicelo's body was found in the veld next to Emdeni.