Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not say that.  I said yes, there were stolen items in the casspirs.

MR LOWIES: Is it your version that the induna's also returned to kwaMadala inside the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, some of them.

MR LOWIES: Who were they, the ones who were in the casspirs that you know?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I remember Gatchene and Darkie Chonco.  I cannot remember the others very well.

MR LOWIES: But Darkie is not even an induna?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: But he had a leadership position, I don't know what position he held, but he had a position at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: And what that was, is unknown to you and you are serious?  I want to put it to you that you are telling lies regarding Darkie.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am telling the truth.

MR LOWIES: The two weeks preceding the Boipatong massacre, your evidence was that there was a meeting held at the hostel, where was this meeting held?  That was where the decision to attack, was taken, on your version.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, I said that a meeting was held two weeks prior, a meeting where it was resolved that Boipatong should be attacked, but the date was not mentioned.

MR LOWIES: Yes, the question is where was that meeting held?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The meeting was held at the stadium at the hostel, that is where Themba Khosa was present.

MR LOWIES: But your statement, paragraph 5 on page 19 reads that it was in a big hall.

MS TANZER: With respect, I did clarify that in my examination in chief, when he said the hall he actually meant the stadium, that was one of the issues we clarified.

MR LOWIES: But still, I think the witness should answer.

CHAIRPERSON: But it is traversed, we have traversed that.

MR LOWIES: Not in cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was covered at some point.

MR LOWIES: Chair, I will leave it at that then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: And on your version, who was present?  Could everybody attend or just the induna's or what?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Themba Khosa was present as well, that is the meeting that was held two weeks prior to the attack.  He was accompanied by a Policeman called Peens, he was in the company of a Police called Peens.

MR LOWIES: Women and children, were they allowed at the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, every hostel resident was summoned to the meeting.

MR LOWIES: And here in the open, Peens is also there, standing next to Khosa, is that what you are trying to say?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I am saying.

MR LOWIES: Now was Peens just part of the audience, or did he also take part in the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall	quite well, but he was present at the meeting, he was accompanied by Themba Khosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, I was under the impression that the issue in regard to the hall and the stadium, was canvassed at the beginning of your cross-examination, but it would appear that it is a matter which was only canvassed during the evidence in chief, so in cross-examination, it has not.

MR LOWIES: If I then am allowed, I will return to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Just after this matter.  Yes Mr Nosenga, what is your answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Will you please repeat the question.

MR LOWIES: Did Peens take part in the meeting or was he just a member of the audience?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying he was standing with Themba Khosa, but yes, he was present at the meeting and other induna's and residents of the hostel, kwaMadala hostel.

MR LOWIES: Now we have heard your evidence that Mtwana Zulu was not present on the day, you can't say whether he was present on the day of the attack on Boipatong.  Do you know whether he was present on this specific day, that is now when Peens and Themba Khosa had a meeting which is denied?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I did not see him, there were many induna's at the meeting.

MR LOWIES: And you are now talking, remember, about the meeting where Themba Khosa and Peens was, you did not see Mtwana, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I say I did not see him, there were many people at the meeting.

MR LOWIES: Who made speeches there, just Themba Khosa or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Speeches were delivered by people like Gatchene and Themba Khosa agreed with him that Boipatong should be attacked.  The residents agreed as well.

MR LOWIES: The Police Officers that were there, Peens, he did not say anything?  He did not hold a speech?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall quite well.

MR LOWIES: Was there any other member of the Police there, but Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying Themba Khosa came in the company of Peens.  	 I only knew many other Police on the day, the evening of the attack on Boipatong.  I only saw Peens at the hostel on the day of the meeting.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, I have to put it to you that you are telling lies.  Firstly, in your statement to Mr Kjellberg you specifically mentioned that Darkie, a member of Murder and Robbery Unit in Everton, was also present.  Now you say it was only Peens, what is the situation?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Which other Police are you saying, was present?

MR LOWIES: Danie?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said Peens not Danie, Peens.

MR LOWIES: But in your statement you say Danie was also, and I repeat also, present, do you deny this now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Danie was present on the evening of the attack on Boipatong, yes, I agree he was present on the day of the attack on Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: You also state in this paragraph 5 that the other people who held speeches there when Themba Khosa and Peens was there, was Mtwana Zulu.  Now you say he wasn't there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.  I said Gatchene delivered a speech.  It is Gatchene who delivered a speech.

MR LOWIES: Did Darkie hold a speech?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.  I cannot recall quite well.

MR LOWIES: What was the reason for the attack as conveyed on this meeting, this is now two weeks before the massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was not told, they just said Boipatong should be attacked and they did not tell me why.

MR LOWIES: Did Mr Khosa hold a speech or did he just confirm what was said by Darkie, by Gatchene, my mistake, by Gatchene?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He said, Gatchene said Boipatong should be attacked and Themba Khosa agreed with him.  That is what I heard him say, I actually heard him agreeing with him.

MR LOWIES: How did he agree, how do you know he agreed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was speaking Zulu.  Gatchene said Boipatong should be attacked and he agreed with him, he said it in Zulu.  He was not speaking English or Afrikaans.

MR LOWIES: Can you recall any specific words that Khosa said?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I remember him agreeing with the suggestion that Boipatong should be attacked.

MR LOWIES: In the same paragraph you make mention of the fact that the meeting was held in a big hall and everybody attended the meeting in a hall.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not say at the hall, I mentioned the stadium, not at a hall.  There is no hall at the hostel.  The hall is in Zone 14 in Mphatlalatsane.

MR LOWIES: What?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There is a stadium right inside the hostel.  The hall is at Mphatlalatsane in Zone 14.  There is no hall at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: What are you trying to say, were there also speeches made at that hall?

CHAIRPERSON: He is telling you that there is no hall at the hostel, it is just a stadium, the hall is in Mphatlalatsane.