Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR DUBE: First of all as I've noted, my work was very clandestine, and another thing is I was supposed to be always vigilant and secured.  I would have to be very alert in case I fall into the enemy's hands.  When I walk around or drive around I will not have my eyes closed, I would have to be very alert.  This kept happening, quite often, and he knew my position and the nature under which I was working, so those things brought questions to me and hence I was suspicious.

CHAIRPERSON: You just told us that you once asked him to explain and he said that he had gone there to see a friend of his.  Is that the only occasion that you got an explanation from him?

MR DUBE: If my memory serves me well, that was not the only occasion.  I think it happened twice, asking him, that is.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he give another explanation?

MR DUBE: The explanation he gave me was the same, very same one he furnished to me.

CHAIRPERSON: That he had gone to see a friend?

MR DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, this morning when you told us about this, you said the explanation he gave you was that he was driving around.

MR DUBE: You mean as I was asking him as to what he wanted there?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  When I'd just asked you, you said the second time you saw him you asked him why he was there and he said he was driving around.

MR DUBE: As I explained, when I asked him, I will not have enough time because the first thing that will strike my mind will be my security, my being secured, and wondering as to why it seems he's following me everywhere I go.

MR RICHARD: To continue on that line, if I say to you that early in 1987 there were suspicions about your integrity and the possibility that you were an informer, would you know anything about that?

MR DUBE: That I don't know.

MR RICHARD: Now I also add on to that by your own admission you knew very, very little about the late Sicelo Dhlomo's activities and movements or what he did with the rest of his life when he wasn't with you.  You knew nothing about his DPS, Detainees Parents Support Committee activities.  What is odd about him being seen at various points in Soweto while going around his activities?

MR DUBE: Please repeat the last part of your sentence.

MR RICHARD: What is odd about the late Sicelo Dhlomo being seen going around Soweto?  He was an active person.

MR DUBE: Earlier on in my evidence I did explain that out of all the cell members while I explained some guidelines to the cell members that each time a person will leave, the others should know their whereabouts, but that did not happen.  That brought questions to my mind.

DR TSOTSI: Did the members of the unit live together, at the same place?

MR DUBE: They resided in Emdeni, not too far away from each other's houses.

DR TSOTSI: And are you saying that if a member wants to go and visit his friends somewhere, he would have come get permission from the commander?  Is that what you are saying?

MR DUBE: Not in that fashion, but at least for courtesy reason you should report as to where you will be going and when.  Not necessarily to be granted permission as such.

DR TSOTSI: ...(indistinct) report to whom?

MR DUBE: To either give that to the commander, Clive that is, whenever he's present, or one of the cell members.
NO SOUND

DR TSOTSI: Were there any rules set out, setting out the limitations of movement of members?  Apart from the rule that they must know, one must know where they ... were there any other limitations on the movement of members?

MR DUBE: The gist of this whole this was to be accountable, so that you know and you are fully aware of the activities of the cell members more than anything.

CHAIRPERSON: How far are Mboyeni and Diepkloof from where he lived in Emdeni?

MR DUBE: Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: How far are Mboyeni and Diepkloof from Emdeni?

MR DUBE: I don't know, I know Diepkloof but I don't know the other one, Mboyeni.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Diepkloof, how far is that from Emdeni?

MR DUBE: It could be approximately thirteen kilometres if I'm not mistaken.  This is a rough estimation, in other words thirteen kilometres.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you say if a young man is going to visit a friend that far away for the afternoon and come back in the evening he's supposed to go and tell his cell members?

MR DUBE: As I said, these guidelines we had set for ourselves, or I had set for them, to an extent that when one leaves one point to the other he must at least report that to other cell members, in case of accidents and other things that might transpire we should be aware, fully aware, of what was happening of the position.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the other cell members do?

MR DUBE: In relation to what, if I may ask?

CHAIRPERSON: Did they work?

MR DUBE: They had just completed school.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they work?

MR DUBE: No they were not working.

CHAIRPERSON: So they were all sitting around at home?

MR DUBE: Yes.  But they will go to school to learn although they are not full time registered at school.

CHAIRPERSON: So were they still going to school?

MR DUBE: I will answer this question under uncertainty, but what I know is that, for instance Clive had just completed his matric.

CHAIRPERSON: When, at the end of 1987?

MR DUBE: No, beginning of the year.

CHAIRPERSON: Beginning of what year?

MR DUBE: 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: So he finished his matric a year before this incident, Clive did.

MR DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Sipho?

MR DUBE: I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: And Precious?

MR DUBE: Precious was at home.

CHAIRPERSON: Doing nothing?

MR DUBE: What I remember was he was looking for a job.

CHAIRPERSON: So presumably he was out and about trying to find a job each day.

MR DUBE: Sometimes yes he would do that, but he will report.

CHAIRPERSON: And was he supposed to go and report to the others that he was going to go looking for a job today?

MR DUBE: Yes, he used to report.

CHAIRPERSON: Why on earth were they interested in this?

MR DUBE: I already explained earlier on that, in case of accidents, now I'm referring to things like being arrested, being shot unaware, it could have been that were camping there at Emdeni and the security police had got in the way of our existence there, so I'm referring to such as accidents, in case of accidents.

CHAIRPERSON: And how would it help to tell?  You have just told us that you heard that the deceased was arrested and you did nothing about it for three months.

MR DUBE: I did apply or administer security measures, that one must not stay at home full time as Sicelo did.  It does not mean I did absolutely nothing.

MR RICHARD: Thank you chairperson.  Now we know that Sicelo did go to school.  Do you know which school he attended.

MR DUBE: I don't quite remember.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember of the name Pace?  Pace College?  P A C E.

MR DUBE: Yes, I know that school.

MR RICHARD: Where is it?

MR DUBE: It's located in Zola in Soweto, Zola in Jabulani.

MR RICHARD: And where is that in relation to Diepkloof?

MR DUBE: It's quite far, it's quite a distance.

MR RICHARD: Now, we also know that during that period, and if need be I'll call the witnesses, that for the very reasons you've outlined, after October 87, Sicelo did not stay at home.  He had been arrested and he wanted to avoid being arrested again, so he was staying in Johannesburg.

MR DUBE: I don't know, as I said.

MR RICHARD: Now, we also know that Sipho Tshabalala was treated like a son by the Dhlomo family.  Why didn't he go to that family to find out what was happening, or if he did what did you learn about it?

MR DUBE: You mean by Sicelo's disappearance?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

MR DUBE: I'd already said earlier on that we had the one cell commander and I spoke to them with regard to the fact that we should look around for Sicelo.