Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-16

MR NTSEBEZA: Tell me, did you get any notification that you have to be deported?

UNKNOWN: No the letter said, his family and himself must be deported.  Then we left.

MR NTSEBEZA: You were taken to a cell in Germiston?  From there the whole group was taken to which town in the Transkei?

UNKNOWN: We went to the border of Umzimkulu, there was a car standing there on our arrival.  It was a truck loading our belongings and a small car that we took together with the children and two white policemen.

MR NTSEBEZA: Where did you sleep the first day?

UNKNOWN: The first day, because there was no place, we went to sleep in a hotel at Umzimkulu.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you pay yourself?

UNKNOWN: Yes we had to pay.  But for two nights we asked for a place to sleep at the charge office, because we didn't know where to go.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now what happened to the money?  Was the money finished, you couldn't pay now?

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes that's true.

MR NTSEBEZA: How old were your children during that time when you had to find place to sleep, when you didn't have
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money to pay a hotel, when you had to sleep in the cells?

UNKNOWN: The elder one was six, the smaller one was four. It's a boy and a girl.

MR NTSEBEZA: You stayed in the hotel at Umzimkulu for how many days?

UNKNOWN: I think it was two days.

MR NTSEBEZA: What about the children?
(end of tape 5)
(start page 6)

UNKNOWN: ....not even at one stage.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now what did the Transkeians say?  What did they say because you were from South Africa to their country?

UNKNOWN: They said someone informed them, they never knew about our family.  We couldn't even leave our family, we were forced to move out at the same time together with the car we were riding in.

MR NTSEBEZA: At the end, you left and you went to Guqwa?

UNKNOWN: No, they took us to his place, his home.  We did not stop straight to the place, we'd stop at police stations, you know to change cars, even at Guqwa we changed cars, at Umtata we also changed the cars, until we were at his birthplace at Namakwe.

MR NTSEBEZA: You were now at his original place. You stayed there until you were employed at Guqa?

UNKNOWN: He applied for a house at first, but he was told, houses only belong to people who are employed. He went to the Minister of the Interior at Umtata because that department made arrangements with Jenny Kruger that there's a burden on their shoulders so we have to go to Transkei. He told them that he is a married man with a woman, he cannot
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stay far from his family.  The next morning he went to find....

MR NTSEBEZA: During that time, was Transkei independent?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now did he find a place to stay?

UNKNOWN: Yes he found a place.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you went to join him?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: What about the children?

UNKNOWN: Together with them.

MR NTSEBEZA: I understand now there wasn't anything from 1978 that really made you suspicious?  What was his wish?  What were his aspirations? You know, after studying?

UNKNOWN: He wanted to be an attorney, but he said no he'd rather be an advocate.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was he always telling you that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: At Guqa, he was sort of involved in the struggle, or did he tell you as his wife, anything?

UNKNOWN: No he didn't tell me anything, he would just go and leave me.

MR NTSEBEZA: Tell me, for the deportation, did he visit South Africa more often, did he tell you whether he was going to meetings, or did he just disappear?  On his return would he tell you exactly where he was.

UNKNOWN: No I can't say he was guarded at Transkei.  We only heard in the papers in 1982, but every time he went to Johannesburg, he was escorted.

MR NTSEBEZA: If he wasn't escorted, was he supposed to apply for a visa?

UNKNOWN: Yes he was supposed to apply for a visa.
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MR NTSEBEZA: During the time when he disappeared, when was it? We just want to scrutinise these periods and all the happenings of the time.  Please try to recall as much as possible.  Explain to us, when did you learn about the disappearance of your husband, or can I put it this way, when did you last talk to your husband?

UNKNOWN: On the 25th April 1987, it was on a Saturday.  He phoned me from work, he was already in the University of Natal at the time and we exchanged calls everyday.  He phoned me this day and told me that he did not have enough pocket money for his belongings.

MR NTSEBEZA: You were now a breadwinner?

UNKNOWN: Yes I was a breadwinner and I was buying everything for him.  I was working at Smart Centre at the time and I informed him that, he must please go to Smart Centre so that he can take as much as he wanted because they were new jeans at the time. He promised to phone me in the evening and tell me how it went. Fortunately they phoned at Smart Centre confirming my credit rating so that my husband can take over, they told me that he has already got what he wanted.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was he able to talk to while he was in the shop?

UNKNOWN: Yes they gave him permission to call me, and he also told me how the trousers fit him and then he said he'll go and alter it.

MR NTSEBEZA: On that Saturday when he went off from the shop, what did he say to you that he was going to do? What did he say to you when was about to leave Smart Centre?

UNKNOWN: He said that he was going to the tailor so that the jeans can be altered.
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MR NTSEBEZA: Where was the tailor?

UNKNOWN: I think that it was in that vicinity.

MR NTSEBEZA: What happened at the time?  Did he phone again as he promised during the evening?

UNKNOWN: No he didn't, and I thought because we had already made arrangements and communicated during the day, I attributed his silence to that.  My young boy went there to a garage because he belonged to a karate club there.  I told him that I forgot to mention that his father phoned, so I requested that he should phone his father.  When he phoned he could hear that he was being called, but when he came back he said he is not responding.  When I looked at the time I estimated that he could be at the library and I was certain that he would be coming back at night and maybe he would phone then, but he never did.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did he phone on Sunday?

UNKNOWN: No he didn't phone on Sunday.  Because he was using the park telephone, he would make a reverse call so that I can phone him back, he didn't phone for quite a long time, and then I had this feeling that maybe there was a problem with the telephones, because when there was supposed to be something that was going to be done, there a tendency to disengage the phones, but I knew that there as also another place where he could get a telephone where they were allowed to receive calls only but could not book them out,
so I requested the child to go and make a telephone call, but again there was no response from him. I said he must wait again so that he can phone maybe after nine, still believing that he might be at the library.  He knew that after nine then I will be looking for him.

MR NTSEBEZA: What day was it now when you were already EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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suspicious?

UNKNOWN: It was on a Thursday, because it was going to be Mayday on Friday.  It was the 30th of April.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is it the day when you started to be anxious?

UNKNOWN: Yes it was.

MR NTSEBEZA: When you say the phones were being cut off when there was going to be something, or an occasion, did you know that there was something that was going to happen.