Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MR NDIMA: Yes, then we were given Barns and then after we had put under the rule of Barns, then Mndayi turned around and said he doesn't want to take this Coloured man, he called him a Coloured and he wants to talk to this Centre in Mowbray with White people in the office there.
 Each time I came back from work, I find houses being demolished and then I would ask him why are they demolishing houses in my absence, why don't you go to this White person so that when there is something behind owing in connection with that, he must tell you so that you can tell me so that in the evening we can call all the people who are in arrears in their rent to find out what their problems were,,so that we could help them with their rent.
 So that their houses should not be demolished, but Mndayi said no, he wouldn't talk to a Coloured person.  So Barns when someone was in arrears, Barns would demolish the shack, he said yes, yes, he did and the Mndayi said he wanted to talk with the White people.
 So he went to Mowbray and when he got there, (indistinct) phoned to this White person.  When he was about to demolish some shacks and he was instructed and they said that the foreman is here.
 The foreman is here and the "ou man" is here now he says you are going to demolish number so and so, number so and so, so we want to request you not to go ahead before you do that, you must meet the old man and this man said no, you are not responsible for demolishing these houses, I am staying with the old man here and you live at Mowbray.
 That old man should come to me when I am about to demolish some houses.   At that time there were some houses of one person who was allocated some site at a place called KTC, this person - his or her houses were not being demolished because they would go to these White man and say please don't demolish.

MR NTSEBEZA: Who is that?

MR NDIMA: That is Nomveve.

MR NTSEBEZA: And this White people at Mowbray was that the Black Sash?

MR NDIMA: Yes.  So when the people at Black Sash phoned, Barns would say no, I am going on.  They would say ask him to come and then he would have to wait for a train and the train has its own time table, he will take a train to Claremont, wait for a bus and the bus has its own time table and then when this man puts down the phone, he calls the workers, his workers, that they must (indistinct) and how much to demolish those shacks and when he comes, he find the house being demolished.

MR NTSEBEZA: And Memani how does he fit into the whole story?

MR NDIMA: Memani was the secretary of Ngxobongwana because when I noticed that the houses are being demolished, I took Ngxobongwana and took Ngxobongwana to this man, I said please I said to this one man, please when there is some people who are in arrears, talk to this man, tell this man so that when I come back, we will take a loudhaler and announce to the people - us from them and this White man said okay, what about the old man, what should I do with the old man.
 I said leave the old man, talk to this man.  And then he said okay, I am going to demolish the old man's house.  I said why, is he in arrears in rent and they said no, he is not.  But I said the houses you are demolishing, is it not because you are demolishing this house, is because you are fighting with the owners, it is about rent.
 So I said is he in arrears - he said no, so I said no, you can't.  He said okay, I won't go ahead, I won't go ahead demolish it.

MR NTSEBEZA: I noticed sir that Mndayi wasn't happy with your acquaintance and you working with Ngxobongwana, he didn't like that?

MR NDIMA: He left Crossroads because I introduced Ngxobongwana to this White person.

MR NTSEBEZA: So he left for KTC?

MR NDIMA: Yes, he left for KTC.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you remained and Ngxobongwana was now a new leader.

MR NDIMA: So I said to Ngxobongwana there must be a new leader and then he said Deputy would be Memani.

MR NTSEBEZA: When did the quarrel start with Memani and what was the cause of it?

MR NDIMA: What caused the quarrel between me and Memani, it is because as we are with Ngxobongwana people who are under Memani, said we must leave the Coloured person.  We want our leader to be Memani, so let's leave the Coloured person alone.

MR NTSEBEZA: Who is this Coloured person?

MR NDIMA: The Coloured person is Ngxobongwana.  So as we disagree, they come and pick the headmen at night into Sizamile.  Memani was in Sizamile now.  They take the headmen to Sizamile.
 And when they arrived in Sizamile, they said we must leave Ngxobongwana alone, leave him out and then they released themselves.
 One day ...

MR NTSEBEZA: Is it the day that Mhlonyane came to talk to you?

MR NDIMA: One day Mhlonyane came  and he said to me a must call  a committee because there are men who are not at work at that present moment, we must call and gather for a meeting and Mhlonyane said I've come to say to you Chawe and Ngxobongwana today will be taken, they will be arrested and Chawe will be killed near Table Top and Ngxobongwana will be killed near the airport.
 And Mhlonyane said I said to them to Memani, why are you going to kill these people because we don't kill them, we just take them and ask them some questions so why are you going to kill them?  So they said because we don't actually own Crossroads because of them, they are the cause of all this.
 If they are dead, we will be the owners of this place.

MR NTSEBEZA: So you thought it would be much safer to attack first?

MR NDIMA: And Mhlonyane said okay, I am out of this, it is because Chawe is related to you, okay, stay there, don't come.  So we had to make a plan in so much that we must go and attack them first before they come and attack us.
 I've seen this matter as not a right one, so I decided that we must go to the police station because we will go there at night and we will be arrested by doing so, because we will do wrong things.
 So we must go to the police station as if Ngxobongwana got lost.  Ngxobongwana was a shepherd of his sheep, he had sheep in his house and when we arrived at the police station, we will say we don't see Ngxobongwana, we last saw him yesterday.  He never came back, his sheep came without him.
 We don't know where he is, so we are looking for him and then the policeman said so if you did find Ngxobongwana, please come and tell us as we are going to do so, then we said okay and then when I arrived at my place, Ii told Ngxobongwana to take his car to King William's Town and stay there for a while.
 As if it is true, Ngxobongwana got lost, we wanted it to be something true.  
 Now what happened, we have decided at ten at night, we must go to Sizamile during the time they are busy in a meeting, we must go to Sizamile.

MR NTSEBEZA: What will you be having, any weapons with you?

MR NDIMA: With knopkieries we are going to attack them.

MR NTSEBEZA: Knopkieries only?

MR NDIMA: Yes, we are going to attack them with knopkieries.  So when I went to the place where we are supposed to meet, I find them gone already and the lady of the house said to me Mister, don't go there, please go home and sleep because it has been a long time that they have  gone, maybe you will get an accident.
 And I know that in the morning I must call a meeting because I am the only one who is supposed to organise meetings, I use this loudspeaker to call.  This Chawe it is me.

MR NTSEBEZA: Oh, you had a loudspeaker that you used to call people to gather for a meeting?

MR NDIMA: Yes, I've got a loudspeaker.  So I went back to my place, I went to bed thinking that I wouldn't know now what this man had done.  Whilst I was asleep, I got up, it was still dark and then I got up and then I started shouting at people through the loudhaler.
 Some were near Sizamile, two men came out from Sizamile.  One of them is still alive his name is - the other one died, he died in that fight, that Memani fight.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that Ndabanintshi?