Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Sir.  What I am disappointed in is that there are fewer members of the Security Branch, maybe people in a more senior position that could spread more light on this as far as the hierarchy and the incidents that were happening at that time.
	I approached the Truth and Reconciliation because it is something that I have got to sort out with myself.  Everybody has had the occasion to do it, and what I find hurtful that in the absence of more people of the Security Branch who could possibly help this Commission, that I have been left out on a limb.

MR KRUSE: I think that is our difficulty.  Let me put it to you this way.  We will put it to you that and I will do that at a later stage when I deal with my interrogation itself, that there were seniors members of the police who participated in my assaults and abuse in your presence.	Are you willing to testify against them in a criminal case?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Should there be a criminal case and I know who those people are that has been alleged to have done this, I can only answer on that, it is a bit wide-spread to say senior people who participated.

MR KRUSE: Okay, we will come back to that later.

ADV DE JAGER: But I think he is asking you whether any other persons in fact participated in your presence in assaulting some of the victims?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Worship, although my modus operandi was to do these interrogations, or shall I say ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think that we must try and just answer the question, we are taking up too much time by lengthy answers.  The question basically is if your attention is drawn to the fact that other people were engaged in assault on the witness here, in your presence, would you give evidence against them in a court of law, in a criminal trial?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That is all, that he is after.  Thank you.

MR KRUSE: We want to go back to the issue of your reputation which we ended up on yesterday and you probably had time to think about it.
	I was raising the issue of in criminal cases, I am not a lawyer so I haven't done the necessary investigations, but I remember in my trial specifically we had evidence, and I can't produce it, but I remember specifically there was evidence of another trial we were going to use to prove that I was tortured, where a case was kicked out, a confession was kicked out on the basis that they used similar methods against another criminal.  Do you remember that case?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I cannot remember that case, Sir.

MR KRUSE: Can you tell the Commission on how many occasions have criminal cases been contested, confessions been contested against you, on how many occasions?  You can just give a rough estimate?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Unfortunately I cannot give a rough estimate, Sir.

MR KRUSE: But quite a number, more than one?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There were, yes, there were such allegations.

MR KRUSE: About ten?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is difficult to say, Sir.

MR KRUSE: But you said there were a number?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

MR KRUSE: You said there were a number of those occasions?

JUDGE WILSON: Can I go back for a moment.  It was put to you that there were senior Officers, more senior Officers present when the questioning took place, then there was a certain other discussions and you said you would give evidence against them.
	Do you know the names of those senior Officers?  Or is the question I know the names of the senior Officers?

MR KRUSE: In my case specifically, his immediate Commanding Officer Superintendent Liebenberg, then Lieutenant Liebenberg was present.

JUDGE WILSON: Liebenberg was present, what do you have to say about that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It could have been possible Sir.  I am not trying to evade the answer, but it could be possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

MR KRUSE: There was Superintendent Smit in the case of Peter Jacobs who will put it to you, he was present with his assault, who is now Assistant Commissioner Smit.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I cannot distinctly remember Commissioner Smit being there, Sir.

MR KRUSE: But this is my difficulty.  I mean you can remember Kentucky and books, and simple things, but being with a senior Officer, I find it, this is my difficulty with finding out whether you are really telling us the truth.  Whether you can make it easy for me to forgive you, this is my difficulty.
	I get the impression that you are deliberately keeping out the names of your superiors?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, it will prove no point or mean nothing, I could gain nothing from protecting anybody at this Commission.
	But interrogations took different methods.  I couldn't say that Commissioner Smit or somebody else interrogated a detainee in an office by speaking to them.  My method of interrogation was torture.  And I doubt if any of those Officers would have gone as far as to be in that office, that is why I am making the discrepancy here about the methods of interrogation.

MR KRUSE: Okay.  Let us deal with the black bag treatment itself.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope you are not going to go over it all over again, because we've had a fair amount of evidence in that regard already.

MR KRUSE: My line of question will be different to Yengeni's.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR KRUSE: It is very common known treatment in the police, more so in the Murder and Robbery, and as you know, you need quite a bit of experience to carry it out.
	The chances of somebody dying, it is a matter of seconds.  I know, and my experience tells me if you don't give me air at the right moment, someone could die.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: Where did you get the training to do this, I don't think you can acquire that training on your own, all of a sudden just take a bag and acquire that?  I want to know where does that method come from?
	It couldn't have fallen out of the air.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: You are aware that before joining the South African Police, I had been with the South African Air Force.  Part of the aircrew training of which I was one, part of your escape and evasion, the method of a wet bag was used on flying crew members to make them aware of the different types of interrogation, during the Bush War, if they were captured, how it could be used.
	So in theory, I knew how to use it and I was aware of it and I learnt to apply it at the Anti-terrorist Unit and whether I was to use a word, good at it, I think yes, but I would not entrust it to anybody else to use it.

MR KRUSE: Who was your first victim?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think Peter Jacobs.

MR KRUSE: Let's go to your team,  and team of command.  I think yesterday, you were a Warrant Officer at that stage, in 1987?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: At that stage it was quite a senior member in the police, unlike now?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

MR KRUSE: It was quite senior, you had quite a lot of authority as a Warrant Officer at that stage, unlike now?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MR KRUSE: I wanted to know if, therefore he should know what type of structures, because at that stage there were very few Officers in the police, and the Warrant Officer was the person in charge of all operations, basic operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Put to him on that basis, that as a Warrant Officer, you were in charge of a number of people, is that the question?

MR KRUSE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Put it to him.  Is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As a Warrant Officer, I was in charge of Sergeants and Constables.

MR KRUSE: How big was your Unit?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Six.

MR KRUSE: Six?   Can you give me the names of the members please?