Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: I just have one or two more questions to ask you if I may.  When you say  - hulle het hom dood gemaak, who are you referring to?

UNKNOWN: It must be the police or those sent by the police, who else could it have been?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: I also need to find out from you Mr Williams - did anybody tell you that your son had another name when he went into exile - did he - did he change his name.

UNKNOWN: The names we had were what is it called  Hgololosego and Joba, the others I don't know.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: What you heard from others was that he may have had two names other than the name that you gave him.

UNKNOWN: He left here with those names Hgololosego and Joba - I don't know any other names.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: But those names he already had when he was here at home - but he was known in exile by his  friends - were by those names -  not by  William Rakubu.

UNKNOWN: Not as far as I know.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: When you referred to Ntsiko are you talking about the Oscar Ntsiko that we keep hearing about yesterday and today?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Oscar a very tall man.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: I'll hand over to the Chairperson and for my other colleagues to ask more questions if they need to.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson - Mr Williams I just want to make sure of something, was it in 1979 - 1980 that he left?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Was he involved in the PAC?

UNKNOWN: That we only found out afterwards.

ADV POTGIETER: Was there a person Mospoweni who also went into exile, did he give you any information?

UNKNOWN: Moss?

ADV POTGIETER: I don't know if the name is entirely correct but that is what I have here.  I have information in a report which we received from our Investigating Unit -  do you know such a person?

UNKNOWN: Moss - well no I don't really know Moss but the one who was not involved was Bennie - he went to school in Lesotho and he once came and told us that he had seen our son, but never again, that was the last.

ADV POTGIETER: Was it this man who told you that you son went to Tanzania in 1986?

UNKNOWN: No - no  that wasn't Bennie -   Fikele - I think you talking about Fikele.

ADV POTGIETER: Fikele - Fikele July is that the man we are talking about?  Because I have a note here that says your son went from Lesotho to Tanzania in 1986 under the care of the United Nations Commissioner for Refugees.  Which year are we talking about - 1986 according to the note.

UNKNOWN: No -  no he was still here in 1986 - no - no he wasn't here in 1986 we had no idea of his whereabouts.

ADV POTGIETER: But was this information given to you at any stage.  These - these people who used to come to you with news.

UNKNOWN: You see they brought conflicting reports.  We never knew what to believe -  that's the problems, like now, we don't really know what is going on now.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes, I understand that thank you  Mr Williams.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Mr Williams, my Afrikaans isn't  very good. I think I'll understand you, but I will try and  I will frame my questions in English and you can answer me in Afrikaans.

UNKNOWN: Excuse me for a moment I just want to put my head phones on.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now, did you ever get any more details about how -  why and by whom your  son was killed in Tanzania.

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV NTSEBEZA: So the report that you have that he was killed in these camps or he died in these camps does not make it clear whether he died as a result of action by the South African  Security Forces or the PAC camps or by people of the PAC  in their camps - it doesn't make clear - does it?

UNKNOWN: No I don't think so - but if a person comes to you and says to you that your son is in good hands,  now what could they be referring to - who's hands are good.  I am sorry to have to ask you this but whose hands are good - it can only be Jesus Christ and how did my son get there?   It must mean that he is dead.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I - I understand Mr Williams - now what - what would you as  a family request from the Truth Commission?

UNKNOWN: We as a family would like to say please - we want  to know  if our child - if he is dead,  we want his - his remains -  his bones and the second thing we would like to ask because you see we don't know how to live henceforward - he was - he was our right-hand, he was our support - perhaps the Government can make some kind of a plan to help us out in our last days.  She is 70 and I am far over 70,  so we are in the last days of our lives.  
Perhaps the Government can make it possible for us to have a pleasant life.  You see my wife has been an  invalid - she was bedridden for 9 weeks during which nobody except the people from the church came to us to find out how we were.  She is stiff suffering.  I can no longer work - I have a problem with my leg this is an old  Army wound  - a  war wound from World War 2 - I was never compensated for it, was never even thanked.
And what I now receive is a Government pension of R410-00 and R18-00 a month from the Army - that is my Veterans pension - R18 per month!  What can one do with that, absolutely nothing.  That's all I am asking, please.

YASMINE SOOKA: I just want to ask one more question for clarity.  Your wife mentioned that when you went to Johannesburg  you went to see the South African Council of Churches.  Could you tell me - I was not sure if that was the church in Kimberley or the Council of Churches in Johannesburg?

UNKNOWN: No it was in Kimberley.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you tell me the name of the person you spoke to at the [intervention]

UNKNOWN: No - I can't really remember there was so many of them, I can't tell you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you ever hear from them again?

UNKNOWN: Pardon me.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you ever hear from the church again in connection with your son?

UNKNOWN: No - never - you mean did I hear anything more about my son - no never.  No it's all quiet,  we haven't hear a word.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you - Mr Potgieter wants to ask you another question.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Williams  - could you try and help us in our investigations.  You refer to a person called Bennie - do you know Bennie's surname.

UNKNOWN: Parweni - Parweni.

ADV POTGIETER: And your wife referred to Johannes [intervention]

UNKNOWN: No there are Bennie's - there is Bennie Fannie and Bennie Parweni.  Now are you talking about the Lesotho one.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: That's Bennie Parweni.

ADV POTGIETER: Right  and then your wife referred to Johannes who was also shot.

UNKNOWN: Yes Johannes was - was a friend of our son's and they left together and Johannes also hasn't yet come back.  We asked his parents to come here but on the day we went to collect them they said they were too busy.  
ADV

POTGIETER: And what is their surname?

UNKNOWN: What is their surname - Moletsane.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr and Ms Williams one of  the hardest things I think for parents is the fact that they don't know what happened to their children.  We've heard this morning the testimony of another mother who still does not know what happened to her son.  We are aware of your pain and the Truth Commission will endeavour to find out what happened to your son.
We would like to thank you for coming here and for sharing your story with us, thank you.