Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MS VAN DER WALT: The people who were arrested for the bomb explosion?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.  I would just like to reiterate that these are not the bomb explosions which occurred shortly before the elections, but those which occurred during December.
	These men had a very high regard for us, along with General Oelofse.  General Oelofse was there with Colonel Basson and they all congratulated us.  They stated it very clearly that what we had done, was an act of heroism.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were any of the generals in staff, did any of them visit you during your detention in Johannesburg?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Gen Nick Fourie, the Chaplain of the AWB whose surname I cannot recall, all of them visited us and praised us and congratulated us.  At a point Gen Etsebeth asked us to come to attention and he personally sang to us "Boere gryp jou roere", and so forth.

MS VAN DER WALT: What impression did you get from the Generals in staff, did they know about the operation which had been carried?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: While I was awaiting trial, I believed that each and every one of the Generals in staff had been aware of the act which we had committed.  Those who had been involved, were clearly in approval thereof.  Later, after we had been found guilty in court, and had not received any visits by the AWB or the leader Eugene Terreblanche, I suspected that something was amiss.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did Eugene Terreblanche after your guilty conviction, visit you in prison?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Eugene Terreblanche, Mr Randall and others along with the supreme leader of Inkatha, here in the Johannesburg area, visited us upon which they congratulated us with our deed and said that we would get amnesty and that we would be released, that we should not worry.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then later, you specifically asked Eugene Terreblanche what he would do regarding the situation, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That was in 1995 in December, in Johannesburg in Diepkloof.  We had a visit from the Generals in staff, not everyone was present, but he was there.
	Gen Oelofse along with Eugene Terreblanche, Gen Etsebeth, the rest I cannot remember.  For me it was a point of concern which arrived via Deon Martin that on the outside it was said that we had behaved like naughty children and for me that was taboo, because I acted absolutely according to the way in which it was expected of me by Gen Oelofse, and I put it to him as such.

MS VAN DER WALT: To who?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: To Eugene Terreblanche, he said to me - at that point I was still a Commandant, he said Commandant, I am telling you now, that if every regional power had acted in the way that they should have, you would not be in prison today.
	It was then also decided to promote me.  I myself was promoted to the rank of Brigadier.  Deon Martin, the Commandant was promoted to the rank of Colonel.  I had to devolve the promotions to the lower levels for their loyalty and for the execution of their duties.
	Jaco Badenhorst was personally promoted to the rank of Lieutenant in the Ystergarde by Eugene Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you aware of any posters, one has been submitted, posters which were printed with each and every one of your faces on them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: At several occasions from the platform donations were requested for the printing of posters, and for the management of our legal fees in order to achieve our release.
	These funds would be used for such purposes and they were used for these purposes to a certain degree.  My own poster is available.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would just like to show to the Committee that this is in fact his face.  I think one has been handed in.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I would like to mention that these posters were printed upon the initiative of Gen Oelofse.  He suggested that this would be one of the methods by which the "volk" outside would know what we had done, and for whom we had done it, that we did it for God, for volk and for father land.  That we had not performed these actions upon our own initiative.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you commit this act?  You said that you did it for God, volk and father land.  Did you draw any personal benefits from that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt, he doesn't say he did it for volk and father land, he says he did it for God and father land.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: God, volk and father land Mr Chairman.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you draw any benefit there from?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Not I or any of my cohorts ever received any profit from the AWB for that.  We spent more for the AWB than anything else.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you watch the television programme last night, during which Eugene Terreblanche spoke?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, I also saw his picture on television and I heard his voice, and to me it is ludicrous that the actual coward remains out there and speaks his mind, while those people whom he swept up and worked through the Generals in staff, to me and to my men, should be sitting here and confessing while they are lying.

MS VAN DER WALT: How did you think after you received the instruction, to set up the road block and to do what you did, how would this have assisted the revolution?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: In terms of Gen Oelofse's order to establish a road block, it was very clear to me that this was the real McCoy and that is why I knew that absolute chaos would break out if every Commander irrespective of what their instructions were, would have acted in the way that we did.  If they had attended to their work the way we did, we would have caused chaos in South Africa.
	But you must remember that we acted completely as guerilla fighters in small groups.  The big job was to be done by Gen Viljoen and Ferdi Hartzenberg.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was this big job to which you are referring?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Constant Viljoen along with some of his Generals, approximately 35, would have entered the struggle by taking over certain military stock piling locations, as well as the SABC, as well as certain radio stations, and along with the Iron and Steel and Mineworkers Union, Ferdi Hartzenberg would have seen to the creation of total darkness in South Africa.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yesterday Mr Martin read a paragraph in Exhibit A, page 11 at the bottom, which reads "means to our objective (Volkstaat), after that heading.
	Mr Martin did in fact read the paragraph regarding how a guerilla fighter would fight within small groups, attack and then withdraw.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to read to you the last sentence of that paragraph and ask you whether or not that is how you understood it.
	The victory of a guerilla lies within the successful application of the revolution or the independence or as an entire team?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is absolutely correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that how you regarded it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is not only how I regarded it, that is how we followed through with it.
	What I would like to mention however, and this must be understood very clearly, is that the AWB is not a political organisation, but a para-military organisation.
	Regarding the negotiations for the Volkstaat, this did not lay in our hands, we were soldiers and we were trained as such.

MS VAN DER WALT: Just a moment Chairperson.  Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt, where, if you can help us, where in the papers is reference made to Dr Hartzenberg and Gen Viljoen, especially in the way that the witness or rather in the context in which the witness has just mentioned their names?

MS VAN DER WALT: If you would look at page 6, he mentions secret meeting with Constand Viljoen and Ferdi Hartzenberg.  Also on page 7, paragraph 6 ...