Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-02

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: At that time when he was trying to grab my firearm the phone was already down because when we entered the shop he put the phone down.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be all, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata, do you have any questions to ask?

ADV MOTATA: Just one, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Bhani, you say you were supported by a person, paragraph 3, who was living on an old age pension, who is this person you are referring to here?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: My mother and my father.

ADV MOTATA: And with your permission, Chairperson, I had another question.
	Now you say this person, the owner of the shop, was mistakenly killed because he attempted to grapple with your gun, in this repossession, other than the grappling of the gun, was it within your plan that if any resistance comes forth, what methods were you to take to fight that resistance?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, if a person is resisting we would fight back as we have done with this victim.  He wanted to grab my firearm, that showed that he was trying something, he was trying to do something and then he died.

ADV MOTATA: Would we be understanding that this repossession, taking away somebody's money, that you are repossessing something which belongs to that person, probably hard-earned like the fruit shop owner?  He worked for this money, how could you say you were repossessing?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: These people, the Boers, when they came to this country they had nothing, they took these things from our ancestors.  That is why we are saying that we are getting or trying to get back what they took from our grandfathers.  That is why we are saying we are repossessing.  Our grandfathers were killed by the Boers.  I'm sure that you understand what I'm trying to say.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Bhani, on what date did this incident take place exactly?  Do you remember?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, I do remember, it happened on the 16th of April 1994.  It was on a Saturday.

ADV BOSMAN: This was just shortly before the elections?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, it was before the elections.

ADV BOSMAN: And on what date did you join the SANDF?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: On the 18th of July when APLA was integrated at "Die Brug".

ADV BOSMAN: Was this also in 1994?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, in 1994.

ADV BOSMAN: At what time did you - on what date did you apply to joining the SANDF?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: We were integrated as APLA forces, not as individuals.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you hear that this integration was going to take place?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I heard this in June 1994.

ADV BOSMAN: At the time of the incident, did you know that the election was going to take place on the 26th and 27th, 10 days later?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, I knew.

ADV BOSMAN: Why was it then necessary to carry out this operation so shortly before the elections?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: As I've already stated in my affidavit, I informed comrade Ntjebe about this.  He told me that they did not get a command to suspend armed struggle.  I just took an order, I was following an order.

ADV BOSMAN: But did he say what the urgency of this operation was, what was the urgency of the operation, it was more than a week before the election?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I just asked him about this, I didn't ask him any other details because my job was to follow an order, to do what I was supposed to do as a soldier.  A soldier follows an order because if you defy they would deal with you in a brutal way.

ADV BOSMAN: And you said that you - if I understand you correctly, you identified the target?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And you referred to the white people, the Boers who had taken the positions of your grandfathers, on what grounds did you identify this man?  How did you identify him as a target?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I identified him because he was one of the white people who were benefitting from the white government.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know what nationality he was?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I knew that he was a Boer.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know what language he spoke?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I knew that he was speaking Afrikaans.

ADV BOSMAN: I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Bhani, I just want to read you something from the papers before me here for your comment and I read it in respect of your statement that you said in the shop the only shots fired were those shots that you fired at the owner and you couldn't count them but it was a few.  This is a statement made by a person who was employed as a cleaner at that restaurant which you attacked in Randfontein.  He says:
"They then ..."
I'm just reading a portion of it.  This is page 16 of.  the bundle, midway through paragraph 3 and I just read.  He says:
"They then entered the restaurant shooting up the ceiling.  I did not count the shots fired or see the kinds of weapons they used.  They ordered us to lie down and shot the television set, entered the toilets and shot the geyser.  I saw one of the robbers remove money from the till.  They then shot a male on the shoulder when they ran away."
Now that is a statement made by an employee at that place, and from that it sounds like there was random indiscriminate shooting, shooting at the ceiling, shooting geysers in the toilet, shooting television sets, what do you say to that?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: We couldn't do that, we couldn't waste bullets and shoot everywhere for no reason, we couldn't do that.  So in other words, the person who wrote this statement is lying.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I have none, Mr Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Bhani, that is the end of your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, I'm calling Tapelo Maseko.  Mr Chairperson, he is not an applicant, he is a witness.  He is the person who gave the orders, they call him Ntjebe.  Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, Mr Maseko will be using Sesotho to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are the interpreters ready for Sesotho?  Thank you.

TAPELO MASEKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Maseko, the affidavit which is in front of you is before the Honourable Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

TAPELO MASEKO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, could we then refer to this affidavit of Mr Maseko as Exhibit B.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether you would like me also to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think for the benefit of the people in the audience, they haven't seen the affidavit and if his evidence is merely to confirm it it doesn't really mean much and it's not that long.