Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr de Ru, you have said in your evidence that your actions were with a view to help the state at that time.  My question is if you are helping the state, why did the same state charge you?  What went wrong and tell the Committee what went wrong between you and the Police?  Why did they go after you instead of the gang?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: It's very difficult to answer that, Chairperson.  I believe that the police in the investigation made the conclusion that murders were committed that morning specifically in the light of Fouche's statement.

MR MADASA: When you gave the sign at the scene of the shooting, when you gave the sign to the police, did you think the deceased were going to be killed?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Can you please repeat the question?

MR MADASA: When you gave the sign at the scene of the shooting to your colleagues, did you think that the victims were going to be killed?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Definitely.

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, with your permission, we're asking for a short adjournment of about five minutes.  We want to discuss whether it would be necessary to call Ms de Lange in support of the applicant otherwise I have no further re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: You have also - you will recollect ...[indistinct] applied for other witnesses to be subpoenaed and brought here today because you, as I understand it, indicated you wish to call them?

MR MADASA: We'll consider all that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: This has been a fairly considerable expense involved in that regard.  Very well we will adjourn for a few minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MADASA: Mr Chairman there's one point I want to put on record on view of Mr Chair's remarks before we adjourned.  The witnesses who have been subpoenaed, have not been subpoenaed at our instance, were issued with a notice by the TRC in terms of which we were required to state the names of people whom we would implicate so that if necessary, on the TRC's part or investigation unit, those people would then be subpoenaed.  So we're merely complying with the notice which we were required to comply with.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not what I had been told.  I had been told that you wished specific persons to be subpoenaed.

MR MADASA: The people that we wanted we have subpoenaed, and one of them is Ms de Lange, but other people were implicated, it was purely a compliance to that notice which was issued.  Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions to the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

MR MALAN: Mr de Ru, you said somewhere, I think it was in your affidavit in your application, that Joseph was known to you.  How was he known to you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Chris brought him to my office, that's Chris Fouche, I saw him together with Chris Fouche.

MR MALAN: When?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The exact day I cannot remember, it was after Chris infiltrated the group.

MR MALAN: And the time since infiltration up until the death that was about ten days, end of March until the 7th April?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes it's about ten days.

MR MALAN: Why did he bring him to your office?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Why did he bring him to my office?

MR MALAN: Yes.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: He came to give me information and Joseph basically confirmed that this information was right.

MR MALAN: And Joseph was one of the MK trained men?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: At that stage I did not know.  It wasn't even known to me that Elsa de Lange was an MK trained member.

MR MALAN: So how do you explain that, what was Fouche's motive to introduce one of these men to you as a trained MK member who wants to undermine the Government and who he has to infiltrate, now he brings him to you to give you information?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: If I look at it today and I think back it's only one conclusion that I can make and that is that Fouche had his own agenda and I base it on the fact that the facts are now known to us.

MR MALAN: Yes but with what purpose?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: It's very difficult for me to say, I cannot answer you.

MR MALAN: But you said he had his own agenda, then surely you mean he had something in mind?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is what I'm insinuating, yes.

MR MALAN: But what did he have in mind?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Chairperson I do not know, I made conclusions from the statements that I had available to me.  There was a fear that the people might not be arrested and allegations were also made against him of offences committed which he never reported to me.  Maybe he thought that if these people are arrested he'll be arrested too.  He did things which was not in line with his instructions that morning.

MR MALAN: But Mr de Ru, he reports to you firstly that six policemen were killed and then later on you found out that it's not true but you do not confront him about that?  Then he also reports to you that a Corolla was stolen, thirdly that a Cressida was stolen.  He reports all these things to you in round about a time of a week, maybe less than a week, because this is already after he infiltrated the group.  Now you are saying that crimes were committed which he does not tell you about?  Which crimes are you referring to?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I do not know if I can answer this with regards to the statements I've seen of Elsa de Lange, I do not know if ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: No, you can take this into consideration because you are now talking about a suspicion that he had his own agenda.  Now please explain this agenda to us?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Chairperson, if you look at Elsa's statement it would seem that Fouche planned the robbery that morning at the Hypersave and it was not the case that the gang gave him the information, do you understand?  He was involved with Joseph in the diamond transactions and he never told me this, and now Elsa is saying this in her affidavit.

MR MALAN: But did he not tell you that these people were stealing weapons, exchange it for diamonds and then they buy in new weapons with that money?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct Chairperson, but you understand what I'm saying?  Now it seems that there were other transactions going down in order to gain financial benefit from it and he never told me about this, never.

MR MALAN: Which transactions are you referring to?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The fact that Elsa said that he went with Joseph to Lesotho and also in her statement she says that he told her that he killed her lover boy because he - sorry let me put this right - that Joseph cheated Chris in a diamond transaction.  These are things that I never knew about and the same goes with the robbery that morning, from Elsa's statement it would seem that he picked up Elsa and Joseph and he saw a person walking on the street and said I want to rob that guy because he's got money and with regards to the shopping centre the next morning.

MR MALAN: But you say Elsa de Lange is here but you have decided not to call her as a witness?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No, she is being called, Elsa is being called, she's here.  I think maybe the advocate maybe hasn't explained it yet.

MR MALAN: You then said that the shock grenades were thrown and detonated, then shots were fired?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Then you gave the instruction to answer the fire because you are being attacked?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: How do you explain the fact that the pistol that was found on the deceased in the vehicle was still in his belt?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I cannot explain that.

MR MALAN: So you do not know where the shots were fired from?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The only conclusion that I can make Mr Chairperson, is that the shots were fired from the vehicle because no one else could have shot.

MR MALAN: Were any of those weapons - were shots fired by any of those weapons?