Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I'm not sure when one says "first-hand" information but in terms of the reconnaissance data, yes he would report, as I indicated in terms of our modus operandi, that we met every Wednesday to review, to take stock of the situation and come up with new plans.  And of course he would come and report in that plannery session where decisions would be taken.

ADV STEENKAMP: Wouldn't you agree with me Sir, that probably to attack a real military target like a police office or a military target like a military installation, would probably have been a real military target?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Can I hear that again?

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry, I'll repeat that for you.  Would you agree with me that to attack a police station or a military installation would probably have been a real military target opposed to the Wimpy Bar on a Saturday?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I think I also indicated that - although the question comes in a different form, but the question of attacking, we have been attacking, we have hit, in the list of our attacks we have indicated we hit the barrack, we've ambushed the security personnel, we have done that in terms of the information.
	So I'm saying that forms part of the operations that we carried out, the security personnel.  And in fact in our operations we have carried out attacks on their barracks as well.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, will you allow me, I've got a few more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Sir.
	Can you explain to the Committee, why and how was the attack on the Wimpy Bar beneficial to your political cause?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Our attack, firstly we indicated that we were a liberation movement, we did not have the regular army.  Part of our strategy or our tactic was to engage in armed propaganda to prove to the people that MK is there but also to annihilate the enemy forces was also part of our responsibility, where we believed that they were vulnerable, where they least expected attacks.  So I believe that we were in fact hitting a target, they happened to be in Wimpy.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know where the arms came from, the limpet mine and who decided to use a limpet mine? Can you elaborate on that?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Excuse me?

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know where the limpet mine came from and who decided to use a limpet mine?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: The limpet mine was part of our arms that we cleared or collected from the dead letter boxes, supplied of course by the unit of the ordinance which of course we don't know but they would simply give us a sketch that in such and such a place there such armament, quantity of armaments and that would include of course limpet mines, AK's and so on, grenades and so on and so forth.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know if the ANC officially acknowledged this act as part and parcel of their political struggle?  Do you if they acknowledged this attack as part and parcel of their political struggle, the attack on the Wimpy Bar?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I remember at that time when we met the leadership, they indicated that there was an outcry, not only about our unit but the manner or the trend that was beginning to assume in terms of targets and so on.  Oliver Tambo said, interviewed, I remember it was in January '86 when he was asked about the soft targets, he said there is no policy of hitting civilians in the ANC policy.
	However, he indicated in the context of struggle, that certain innocent people would be caught in the cross-fire.  There is no policy in the ANC in regard to the question of hitting of whites.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, have you got any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: No re-examination thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, I'm just going to put a few questions on issues of clarity.  You have given us an elaborate detail of the reconnaissance which was conducted on the Wimpy Bar.  Can you just explain to us further on who constituted the reconnaissance group?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: The reconnaissance was conducted by Alfas Ndlovu, it was after - I think I must also clarify, I also said in my submission that for us to get to know about the intended target, there were a number activists in Daveyton, Tematsakan(?) and so on who were detained in Benoni Police Station.  That's how we got to know about that.
	Further, what one forgets as well was that the police used to, Special Branch, used to meet, particularly senior people, to review ...[indistinct] reports on Saturdays as well, so that formed part of the data that came to us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, but my question was quite simple, who constituted the reconnaissance group that conducted the various reconnaissance on the Wimpy Bar, the names of people who formed part of that group?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: There were no groups except my fellow applicant who was assigned the responsibility.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you are saying only Mr Ndlovu conducted the reconnaissance?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: That's it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On the information received from ex-detainees of the various prisons?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: For how long was this reconnaissance conducted?  Are you able to shed any light on that?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well I can't strike a total recall in regard to the duration of the reconnaissance conducted but I know for a fact that we used to conduct for a period of some time, depending on the nature of the target and so on.
	We would take some time basically, and also for verification purposes as to whatever the information that is at our disposal is in fact the correct one.  But in regard to the period and so on I can't strike a total recall.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How many reports did you yourself as the overall commander receive from Mr Ndlovu, with regard to his reconnaissance on the selected target?  Was it only one report?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, no, various reports.  I think - I would say various reports.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were part of the group that approved Wimpy Bar as the selected target, is that not so?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes, as the head of Johannes Nkosi Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's not what is being asked.  Were you in a meeting or a gathering where the decision was made that in Benoni a particular target, because it is frequented by members of the Security Police, that a bomb would be planted in the Wimpy Bar?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You were in a meeting?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was this decision decided after you had received the various reports on the reconnaissance which had been conducted or was the decision to target Wimpy as a target, to target Wimpy, decided before the reconnaissance was conducted?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, no, no.  In fact Wimpy is not an exception, all our targets we would identify, reconnoitre, collect data, verify and it's a period of time before you reached the decision.  For an instance you did not go or decide to go to Wimpy Bar without planning, or any other target, without planning the route of entrance, the route of retreat, the surrounding area, the enemy, the hostile forces around the area and so on.  You take that all in account and weight it before you decide to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But the question is, the decision to target Wimpy in Benoni, the one that was ultimately blasted, was that decision in which you were in a meeting to decide that, was that decision taken before or after reconnaissance had taken place?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: It was after the reconnaissance had taken place.  Clarity for that, Wimpy was not - in fact it came to picture some time after we had identified the actual target and then it led us to Wimpy.  So Wimpy was an aftermath basically.