Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR CURRIN: We accept that.  Can I just ask one questionfor clarification?  We would then like the first witness who
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testifies regarding these incidents under oath to confirm BrigCronje's testimony regarding the general background and  we willthen cross-examine him on that general background, if that's inorder.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether you wish to cross-examine him and thencross-examine Cronje again and so on, is a matter in which somejudicial discretion must be exercised.  We are not in a trialand cross-examination is not something which is unlimited, asyou no doubt know, and it may well be that you might have to curtailyour cross-examination of witnesses who are going to give evidenceon specific matters to those  matters.  Where evidence concerninggeneral behaviour of all the applicants is concerned, I thinkit would be prudent if  you did leave that to Brig Cronje simplybecause when the  proceedings started it was on the basis thatin order to save a great deal of time Brig Cronje would be allowedto give evidence on the general background.  And I think in  keepingwith that wish we would prefer it if we go along along those lines.  I am not going to prevent you from cross-examining individualson specific instances, but if there is any point which you thinkit particularly germane then you may ask that.

MR CURRIN: Thank you,  Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Then  I hand over tomy learned friend, Mr Chairman, to start with that matter of Makope,Maake and Sefola.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I make a request.  Myattorney and I have been discussing this possibility and the wholequestion of cross-examination on the general background.  Whatwe are a bit concerned about is that if  Mr Currin intends tocross-examine and has specific general
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questions, which he is going to ask each and every witness, weare not sure if it might not be prudent to have Brig Cronje testifyfirst.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if anything like that does happen andif Mr Cronje is going to give evidence, as we have assured  counsel that he will, I do not  think  there need be any fear  that therewill  be very lengthy cross-examination  of each of the applicants.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right, Mr Chairman, we don't really havea  problem.  We proceed.
 I then proceed to call Warrant Officer Paul van Vuuren.   Thisis in respect of the incident referred to as Andrew Makope, JacksonMaake and Harold Sefola.  You will find it on page 96 of his application.

JAKOBUS JAKOB VAN VUUREN: s s

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, page 79. Can you describe this event to the Commission and can you elaborateon anything you would like to?

MR VAN VUUREN: Maake was an informant for the SecurityBranch.  He was sent out and after three months he came back. He was questioned and he told us about his training.  LieutenantHechter drew up the report and sent it to the headquarters.  Accordingto him some of his instructions were from the police.  Maake alsospoke of Alistair Makudu(?) who would have assisted him with theplanting of a bomb at the head office of the Security Police inPretoria.  We determined this at a later point during the interrogationof Maake.

MR DU PLESSIS: Could you wait for a moment.  The Pretoriabomb to which there is reference, which incident was this exactly?
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MR VAN VUUREN: This was the Kerkstraat or Church Streetbomb.

MR DU PLESSIS: You may continue.

MR VAN VUUREN: Captain Hechter and myself became scepticalabout the informant and no longer trusted him.  On occasion hesimply came to our offices without our having requested it.  Hisinstruction was particularly that he was not supposed  to cometo our offices as he was an informant.  We gained the notion thathe wanted to gain access to our offices.  He was not concernedabout his identity and we decided to interrogate him.  From adifferent informant's report we determined that he was a doubleagent for which reason we wanted to interrogate him.

CHAIRPERSON: I am afraid I didn't take down the name of thisperson who  was suspected to be a double agent.  What is his name?

MR DU PLESSIS: Maake.

MR VAN VUUREN: Prior to interrogation he was one of ourtrusted informants and we had made a vehicle available  to himand arranged a driver's licence for him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, could you give us some moreinformation about the report of the informant on Maake  with regardto Maake being a double agent.  Could you remember something moreabout this informant's report, than that he was a double  agent?

MR VAN VUUREN: I cannot remember.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you receive any confirmation at a laterstage that Maake was a double agent?

MR VAN VUUREN: Yes, this  is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: You may continue.

MR VAN VUUREN: During the interrogation we used a mobile
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power point.  This was 5 to 10 kilometres north of Messina.  MRDU PLESSIS:  How did you move Maake to this point of interrogation?

MR VAN VUUREN: We had contacted him and he came to usand from there we went to the  place of interrogation.

MR DU PLESSIS: You may continue.

MR VAN VUUREN: This was a yellow Robin power point.  Thissends electrical power shocks through a person to convince theperson to give information.  He admitted  to being a double agentand told of an evening in Mmabatho where Ian Hechter was present. There was an operation planned with information available tohim to eliminate us.  The reason  of this was that we had a lotof information about ANC activists and had been a danger for them. Since  we had booked in under other names they were not ableto track us down.  During their interrogation it became clearthat his contact in Mamelodi was a certain Andrew Makope.

MR DU PLESSIS: Could you wait there a moment.  The generatorwhich was used, was this generator at the place of interrogationor did you take it along?

MR VAN VUUREN: As far as I can  remember it had been therealready.

MR DU PLESSIS: Whose property was this?

MR VAN VUUREN: The property belonged to the mine,  PretoriaPortland Cement Mine.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you take any other equipment  for interrogationalong?

MR VAN VUUREN: Not at that moment.

MR DU PLESSIS: What admissions did  Maake make in additionto this, than that he was a double agent and the evening on whichthey planned to eliminate you?
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MR VAN VUUREN: He told us who his contact person hadbeen and that he was supposed to plant a bomb in the SecurityBranch with Leicester Dumakudu, and that's the story.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did he give you any information with regardto acts of terror in which he was involved?

MR VAN VUUREN: He told us with which other active terrorhe was involved, but he was rather a courier who brought armsinto the country.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren, with regard to the use ofthe generator, could  you expand  on this somewhat?

MR VAN VUUREN: We used the generator to shock him.

MR DU PLESSIS: For what length of time would the electricalshocks have gone through him as you used it?

MR VAN VUUREN: I can't remember exactly, but it wouldbe a second or two.

MR DU PLESSIS: Let me ask you the next question  in thisway.  Was Maake willing to give you answers or  did you have touse the generator?

MR VAN VUUREN: Maake denied that he was a double agentat the beginning, but after the interrogation his acts becameclear.

MR DU PLESSIS: How many times did you need to give himelectrical shocks?

MR VAN VUUREN: Approximately three times.

MR DU PLESSIS: Over what period?

MR VAN VUUREN: The interrogation lasted about an hour.

MR DU PLESSIS: What kind of building did you use for the interrogation, could you explain that?

MR VAN VUUREN: It was in the open air, it was in the bush.

JUDGE WILSON: ... and who from?