Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

MR NDLOVU: He read as far as the ANC members.  He only read about the IFP members who sustained injuries and died.  I was also surprised to hear that much, because I know nothing of that.

ADV SIGODI: In other words you are telling us that he never read the whole affidavit back to you whilst you were consulting?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I would agree with you.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I want to say to you that that is improbable Mr Ndlovu.

MR LAX: Isn't that a matter for argument?

AZHAR CACHALIA: It is a matter for argument sir.

MR LAX: The question's been put to him, he's answered it.  You can then rely on his answer and argue the probabilities later.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Ndlovu, do you remember who it is that took your, or who was the Commissioner of Oaths on that particular day, do you remember?

MR NDLOVU: I don't understand now about that.  Can you explain a bit?

CHAIRPERSON: What we're trying to get at Mr Cachalia, we've got there, we know that it's stamped the Hoof van die Gevangenis, Zonderwater, Cullinan, are you disputing that that person ?

AZHAR CACHALIA: No ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: So.  Well for what, what do we need to know that for?  If he can remember who it was or not?  I mean.

AZHAR CACHALIA: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Right, well go ahead.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

AZHAR CACHALIA: My apologies.  Mr Ndlovu, I've put this before to you and I want to be quite certain that that was your answer.  You said that the deponent, the paragraph at page 7 says that you had acknowledged that you know and understand the contents of this affidavit.  Why did you acknowledge that, why didn't you say I haven't had it read back to me, I don't know what is in it, I want it read back to me?

MR NDLOVU: I think if my memory serves me right, on that day we were filling the application form, it was late, and the attorneys arrived late in the first place, and we were quite a number of us, many, were going to fill up the application form.  So that now in retrospect I realise that some of the mistakes were as a result of the communication, and some part would have been said by co-accused, because they were arrested the following day, yet I was arrested on Saturday, so when I looked ...(indistinct) I realised there were many mistakes, and those statements, or rather the form, was not read back to us, we were only furnished them with information and they made us, or instructed us to sign, and if that statement was read back to me I know I would have rectified the mistakes earlier than now.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Ndlovu.  I want to put to you that that is the statement that you have made and that at that stage it was what you intended to convey, and that Mr Msizi nor Mr Claassen had any reason to put anything else but what you told them.  Do you wish to make a comment about that?

MR NDLOVU: I don't disagree with you in that regard, it's only the mistakes that I have a problem with or I dispute.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Alright let's go just to the incident itself.  You say you were sitting in the shack when Joseph Mkhize came in wanting to change his clothing and he was in a hurry and that was at about five o'clock.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: He said he had no time to explain to you and you then decided that you are also, he said that there are people who are dying.

MR NDLOVU: Yes.  He did not say people are dying, he said there is a fight outside.  People are fighting outside.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Ndlovu I don't want to go back to this whole process, I have clearly written here you said while he was sitting there people were dying outside and please I am saying that is what you have said in fact.

MR NDLOVU: If I said that, that people are dying outside I don't think it was properly said.  I said the ANC and IFP, or these groups, are fighting.

MR LAX: You said both those things, Mr Ndlovu.  You said that Mkhize said to you, "...why are you sitting here while people are dying outside?"  And then you said that he then said that the ANC and the IFP were fighting.  When you asked him to explain what they were fighting about he said there's no time for explanations.

MR NDLOVU: Well I agree.

AZHAR CACHALIA: We'll just note that that is not what you intended to convey, that is wrong.  I will then proceed.

MR NDLOVU: No, I still stand by that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I will in any event proceed.  Mr Ndlovu when you came to, please tell me where is your shack precisely in relation to Magwaza's house and the sports field and Brown's house.

MR NDLOVU: My house was way upward, it was not downward towards Magwaza's and Brown's houses.  You would have to go past Brown's house and go towards the upper direction.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Past Satywyte Street S A T Y W Y T E.

MR NDLOVU: May the speaker repeat what he has just said.

AZHAR CACHALIA: When I went for an inspection there were streets name such Satywyte, Dastile and others going upwards.  Is it past those places are you saying?

MR NDLOVU: No, I don't know if there are street names now, because in prison that could have been the latest development.

AZHAR CACHALIA: May I just establish is it near Mr Mlauza's shebeen.

MR NDLOVU: Mr Mlauza is quite a distance from my house.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Perhaps I should just proceed.  Mr Ndlovu when you came to your home from work on that day, you have not told us about anything that you might have noticed, that was unusual when you were returning home from work at about five o'clock that afternoon.

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And as you arrived at home very soon thereafter Joseph Mkhize, a member of the IFP arrived, and the incident that we've just discussed took place.  Is that right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Was it just a few minutes after you had arrived?

MR NDLOVU: When I arrived from work, I arrived at about past three.  Since it was raining that day and the conditions as well, I did not notice the condition as well, as I was tired coming back from work that particular day on Saturday.  I got home and relaxed on my bed.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm sorry if I have made a mistake Mr Ndlovu.  I had assumed that what you have said is that you had arrived at about five o'clock that afternoon.  Am I mistaken about that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, it is so, because when I was explaining I did not explain as to whether I was coming from work at the time Mkhize arrived.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Ndlovu, you did say you arrived at about five.  That was your clear evidence-in-chief.  Just for the record I'd place that on.  Carry on Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Mr Lax.  Do you wish to make a comment about that now sir.

MR NDLOVU: No I don't dispute any of that.  Really because I did not take notice, or I did not, I could not furnish the Court about the details pertaining to time, but I know for a fact that I had some time to relax at home.  I did not arrive and suddenly Joseph arrived.  In other words I arrived and for some time I relaxed on my bed, then he arrived, Mkhize that is.

AZHAR CACHALIA: How long after that?

MR NDLOVU: After what?

AZHAR CACHALIA: How long after you arrived at home die Mkhize arrive at your home and push the door open and walk in?

MR NDLOVU: I think I relaxed for about 45 minutes to 60 minutes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Relaxed for about 45 or 60 minutes.  When you arrived at home was there any disturbances in Zevenfontein on your way to your shack?

MR NDLOVU: No, I did not notice anything.  We were just walking freely from the taxi ranks, and I walked back home without noticing anything.  It would have been also difficult for me to notice because it was raining that day for starters, and even if you wanted to look around or into something you would not be in a position to do that since the weather was not gorgeous, or it was raining.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You did say you noticed a group of amabuto, when you arrived at home.

MR LAX: He said that was after he left with Mkhize.