Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

<UNKNOWN>: You see Mr Madlala seems to indicate that after he had told, that's he Mr Madlala, had told Mr Harrington about what Jama said relating to the killing of police, you and Harrington then took the deceased into the back of the
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police van.  You then drove off while Harrington was seated at the back with him and with Mr Madlala.  Can you comment on that?

ANSWER: I did not participate in putting him in the vehicle or anything.  They merely informed me that I should get into the vehicle and drive.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible) putting it around his neck to strangle him or attempt to strangle him?

ANSWER: Was that in the vehicle?

UNKNOWN: Anywhere, at any stage at any time.

ANSWER: At the vehicle I did not see him.  While I was driving I did not see him, but that is the information which I received and even in the bushes I did not see him strangle him.  I walked closer and I did not actually see him strangle him.  At the vehicle, I saw him drag him out of the vehicle when we stopped at the bushes, but I did not actually see him strangle him.

<UNKNOWN>: Weren't you all together?

ANSWER: The two of them went first and by the time we got there he was no longer strangling him.  That is why I did not see for myself that he was strangling him.

UNKNOWN: Mr Erasmus, the in initial question was, did you see him throttle the deceased with the belt and you said when, at which stage?  And then I said to you well, at any stage, then you said no, you didn't see him do that.  Why didn't you simply say no, I never saw him throttle the deceased?  Why did you have to ask at which stage if you never at any stage saw him throttle the deceased with the belt?

ANSWER: I probably did not understand the question
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properly, because when I saw him with belt around his neck was when the vehicle was stopped and Mr Harrington pulled him out of the vehicle with the belt around his neck.  I did not see Mr Harrington strangle him with a belt at any other stage.

<UNKNOWN>: ... pull him out of the vehicle with the belt around his neck, do you mean that Harrington had the belt in his hand, was pulling him out of the vehicle by using the belt?  Pulling him out that way.  Or was the belt just loose?

ANSWER: Mr Jama was standing and he dragged him out of the vehicle while the belt was around his neck and the  belt was fairly tight.

<UNKNOWN>: ... ever lying on the ground before he was killed?

ANSWER: As far as I know I can really not say because I was not really at the scene when the incident took place.  I turned back and I walked away.  We knew what was going to happen.  It was preplanned and we discussed at the bottle store that Mr Madlala was going to shoot him.  So I knew what was going to happen.

<UNKNOWN>: ... when it happened, is that what you are saying?

ANSWER: I knew what was going to happen and we were basically walking back to the vehicle and Mr Madlala was going to shoot him.

<UNKNOWN>: ... put a stop to that?

ANSWER: Because it had everyone's approval.  I came up with the suggestion that Mr Jama had to be shot and there was no one that was going to put a stop to it.

<UNKNOWN>: ... holding this man's head and then pushing it
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against a stone from time to time, or bashing it against a stone for want of a better word?

ANSWER: No, Sir.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you not think that Mr Jama with this belt around his neck, obviously having been tortured to some extent, had not had enough?

ANSWER: Well, Sir, I cannot say much about the torture because I did not really see that.  I was driving the vehicle.  And because we took the decision at the bottle store that he should be eliminated.  I just didn't care much more because we knew what we were going to do from there and how we were going to kill him.

<UNKNOWN>: ... torture with the use of the belt because you were driving, but it must have been obvious to you when a man is taken out of a vehicle with a belt around his neck something very unpleasant has happened.

ANSWER: The one moment he was being dragged out and the next moment he was running and that was where I drew the 9mm pistol and Mr Harrington advised me not to do that for fear of ballistics identifying me as the one that shot.

<UNKNOWN>: Why didn't you take this man into the police station, have him formally charged with acts of terrorism or whatever?  Why didn't you do that?  You might have got a medal for it?

ANSWER: At that point we took the decision that we were not going to have him formally charged and the decision was already taken that he was going to be killed and it was our job, assaults by different members of the unit, and that is where I learnt it as well.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, I understand that a legal
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representative is present on behalf of Mrs Jama.

MR BRINK: I understand so.

CHAIRPERSON: Should he not be afforded an opportunity to put questions?

MR BRINK: I think he should be, if he wishes to.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you come somewhere near to a microphone, please.   Can you place yourself on record.

MR JASSAT: Mr Chairman, my name is Farouk Jassat.  I am an attorney practising in Pietermaritzburg.  I was requested yesterday to represent Mrs Jama, but my difficulty has been that Mrs Jama has no documentation available which has been furnished by people leading the evidence here in order that I could make some meaningful contribution to this Commission.  I don't know what the practice of this Commission is, but I was under the impression that if Mrs Jama is an interested party she should have been given documentation.

CHAIRPERSON: What is Mrs Jama's attitude towards the application for amnesty?

MR JASSAT: Mr Chairman, I have been brought in at the last minute.  I haven't even had a chance to speak to Mrs Jama, the reason being that when I arrived at two o'clock you were about to commence.  In the circumstances, the question of putting questions to this applicant, could that not be left over until tomorrow morning, if that doesn't inconvenience this Commission?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you've seen by now that there has been fairly comprehensive questioning by members of the Committee as well as far as the events themselves are concerned.  The Committee would like to hear what Mrs Jama's attitude would be or is.  Obviously she was not present at the scene and
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only heard about it much later, so would not be able to controvert such evidence as has been given.  We may be wrong.   But that's a matter which you may find out.   If you would like to consider putting questions to these witnesses tomorrow morning then I would afford you that opportunity to do so.

MR JASSAT: I would appreciate that, Mr Chairman.  I would like to have a consultation with my client in the few minutes that I have and then pursue this tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: The documents that are made available to us are the applications for amnesty.  Members of the Committee have copies of the judgment of the trial court and the appeal court, but those are public documents.

MR JASSAT: Thank you, Mr Chairman,  if I may be afforded that opportunity to then address you tomorrow morning and put questions to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jassat, you may do so in the morning tomorrow. We will commencing at 09:30.

MR JASSAT: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Erasmus, you had been led to believe that Mr Jama was an ANC member and that from what you had been told he had been engaged in some serious ANC political activities, is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Earlier that day you had watched a demonstration by the ANC at which there were several thousand people present.

ANSWER: That is correct.