Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: What we should and try and do is to hear your story and tell us about what happened to you.  We are not a Court of Law.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I am trying to tell you everything.

CHAIRPERSON: We have to try not to attack each other, launch scathing attacks on each other.  Tell us about what happened to you, how and things related to your statement, what was written in your statement so that whatever other allegations are made about other people that they would be able to come and defend themselves, but let us not try and launch any attacks on each other.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: We are not launching any attacks on each other.  This the Truth Commission and we are here to speak the truth to say what happened so that would be hiding the truth in other words and that is wrong because then I would not be telling the truth because that means that I have still got
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something that I am not saying.  I want to tell everything and make it public.  So if I am going to omit certain things and try and omit things that a certain person did which are relevant to this case, I just want to speak the truth and let you people know that certain people are bad news.  It is quite obvious that certain people are just bad news.

RUSSELL ALLY: Victor maybe it will help if I ask a few questions just to try and put all the pieces together.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Firstly.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: You did not go to KwaNdebele, all of you on your own initiative.  You were actually recruited.  Is that not so?  In your statement you speak about ...

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: ... a meeting and a Comrade called Solly.  Was Solly the person who actually asked you and other youth to go to KwaNdebele or how was this decision actually taken to go to KwaNdebele?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Solly told us that we should unite and then go and assist at KwaNdebele because the police are the ones that are killing the children and taking food from the supermarkets for free and just doing many things.  So this was the cause of us meeting and then going to KwaNdebele to render assistance.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now this Solly did you know him before?  What was his background?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I knew him then and it is somebody that I grew up with.  I know him up to this day.

RUSSELL ALLY: So you still have contact with him, you still see him or do you just know that he is still around?
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JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes, he is still around.  He is alive.

RUSSELL ALLY: And when Solly asked you and a number of other youth to go to KwaNdebele were you in any way suspicious or did you agree that this was something that you wanted to do?  How was Solly able to convince you?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No, there was no problem because he was okay.  We got along quite well.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now the transport to KwaNdebele, and I want you just to think very carefully about this, because later I am going to ask you about some other youth.  Unfortunately it is not possible for us in these public hearings to hear everybody's statement.  As the Archbishop said we have to use the statements as a window into looking, as to what happened, but every statement we get is very important and there are some statements of parents whose children also disappeared more or less the same time.  Now, this, the transport to KwaNdebele, now in your statement you say that it was SABTA who provided Combis.  Is that correct?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: And what was the colour of these combis?  Can you remember?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I do not want to lie.  I think the one was white.  This is like ten years back, you know, colours are not something that you would be able to remember.  I mean they are not particularly relevant.

RUSSELL ALLY: The reason I ask you that is because in many of the other statements the mothers say that the last time that they heard about their children was that they got into a white combi to go to KwaNdebele.  So if you cannot remember that is okay, but I just thought maybe you would be able to corroborate that.  Now, when you got to KwaNdebele the first PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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place you went to was Mr J B Shabangu.  Is that correct?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now why did you go to this place?  This Mr Shabangu had a supermarket.  Why was that the place where you were dropped off?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Could you please repeat the question?

RUSSELL ALLY: Why was it, why were you taken to Mr Shabangu's supermarket?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Because Mr Shabangu was, the Mbokodo who use to take things from his shop without paying and just do funny things and Solly was somebody who organised us to go there and try and defend him and to also defend the people.  Us as Comrades were to go there and defend the people that the police were harassing.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now earlier in your testimony you spoke about photographs being taken.  Were these photographs taken at Mr Shabangu's supermarket?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: And the reasons for taking these photographs?  Did you know why these photographs were being taken?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I could say quite easily because JB use to take the photographs so that they, for the sake of memories when I think.  I mean he was just doing it for memories, but I cannot think of any other reason why JB would take the photos.

RUSSELL ALLY: So you did not think there was anything strange about him taking photographs of all of you when you had just arrived?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No, I never had any such kind of suspicion because we use to go to him and eat there and everything.  So there was no reason for me to suspect.
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RUSSELL ALLY: Now at that time how many of you were actually staying in the supermarket?  Can you remember?  Do you, if you cannot that is okay, but do you know the number of Comrades?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No.  Without lying we were, there were first 12 of us that were staying there.

RUSSELL ALLY: First 12 of you.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now one evening, the evening of the 12th of June 1986 the supermarket was actually attacked and you say some people got injured.  Now after this attack why did you not leave to go back to Mamelodi?  Why did you still stay there after realising that the situation was actually quite dangerous and some people were injured in the attack?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Because the time they shot the people at Einel, the reason we did not go back was that we were staying there because, so that, trying to defend these people from being harassed by the police because Mbokodo use to take the people and burn their feet with, in galleys, by taking their feet and placing them in a galley of coals and burning their feet.  So if we had to leave they would harass these people even more.

RUSSELL ALLY: But how were you going to defend yourself?  Did you have any arms, did you, guns or and after this police attack how were you going to defend yourself because you say in your statement that the attackers wore green police overalls.  Is that correct?  So how were you going to defend yourself?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: We had made certain plans in the sense that we use to use petrol bombs.  We would take a petrol bomb and throw it by rope to, at a distance and know that once it hit PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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it hit wherever, it would explode.