Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Although I cannot be absolutely certain why they lied, but if you are in a situation where you have to present evidence in court, you may say whatever you can but what I do know is that this did not occur.
	One of them said he was stabbed and he showed a scar that had long been there and it was apparent that that scar had long been on his face.  There are a lot of things that they mentioned that were untrue and I don't know why they actually said those things.

MR LAX: Well the man who said he was stabbed, it is quite easy, he just wanted to explain why he ran away.  That doesn't change the matter very much.
	But there is nothing that changes the fact that the man on the verandah was shot with a firearm, it was a handgun and that was linked the Star to you people who were accused in that matter, isn't that?  They found the bullets there on the scene, they linked them ballistically, that is all there, not so?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MR LAX: So that couldn't have been lies because he was shot?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, it wasn't lies that he was shot, but no one was stabbed.
	But there were other things that were mentioned, which were not necessarily true.  I think they were trying everything in their power, to get us convicted, but they did mention a lot of things that were not true.
	In some instances the Court also dismissed what they were saying, because it was apparent that what they were saying, was not true.

MR LAX: One last question, you applied for indemnity in this matter, is that right?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Why didn't you at that time try and get hold of the people who you say you were helping, so that they could provide the evidence to back up your indemnity application?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: When I applied for indemnity, I did not know that I had to contact some people who could support me.
	I was waiting to hear from the people who were in charge or responsible for the process, to tell me how to go about it.  When we committed this crime, we did not know that there would be such things available to us.  I was waiting to hear from them.

MR LAX: I am talking about before the TRC.  I am talking about the indemnity process.  You applied under the Further Indemnity Act of 1992 for indemnity.  A copy of your letter is in the papers.
	If you like, I will dig out the page number for you, but it is really not necessary, it is right here in front of us?

CHAIRPERSON: He is saying that the number of the Act in terms of which it was applied, was 1992.  The Act was passed in Parliament in 1992, like this Act now is passed in 1995.

MR LAX: And you applied on the 20th of January 1993.  If you look at page 323, there is your letter, application for release in terms of Section 2 of the Further Indemnity Act.  It is in your own handwriting?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, can I explain that again, how it happened?

MR LAX: No, no, the issue that I really want you to explain is a simple one.  You made application on the basis that what you did, was political.  The people who would have been able to help you prove that it was political, were the people you were supplying with weapons, who were involved in the struggle in your community, yet you made no effort to contact them so that they could back up your story.
	That was in 1993, not for the purposes of this amnesty application.  I want to know why because it is clear from your letter that you understood that you had to show a political motive for your action.  You are a policeman, you understand these things.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: At the time, I tried to send a message to the people in the neighbourhood or my neighbourhood.  I enquired whether those people were still alive or were still residing in the area.
	Because I was not called or I was not contacted, I did not further pursue that issue of contacting those people.

MR LAX: No further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions arising?

MR NGUBANE: Yes, I just want to clear one aspect, thank you.
	Mr Hlengwa, if I understand you correctly, you say that you forgot to mention Kambule because he didn't participate in the robbery, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, I forgot him.

MR NGUBANE: And he was not part of the discussion regarding guns, because they had no violence in Maritzburg, is that right?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did you see him after the robbery and discuss maybe what happened?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: After the robbery, yes, I did see him a few days thereafter, and we did not discuss anything.

MR NGUBANE: The letter I referred you to earlier on, which you wrote to the TRC, at page 309 starting from the fourth line, you say we left two HMC's and a shotgun with Mgululego and promised to keep in touch with Mhluli and I then went back to our police station.
	I told Kambule that we would have to go via Mpumalanga and collect an HMC from Dlamini if he needed it, because he was experiencing the same political violence in Pietermaritzburg where he resided.  Mhluli then gave Kambule's firearm back to him.
	After that we went on with our normal duties as usual, until we were arrested on the following week, on the 29th of March 1990.  Do you realise that that statement conflicts with what you have told the Commission?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Thank you for reminding me.   A long time has elapsed since then.  When I wrote this, my memory was still fresh.  I had completely forgotten that this happened.
	If I can just explain about Kambule now that I have been reminded about him.  I thank you for reminding me about him.
	I remember what you have just read from here.  I have completely forgotten about him, but when I wrote the statement, my memory was still fresh as I mentioned before.
	I have forgotten some things that happened, because a long period of time has elapsed since I have been in prison.

MR NGUBANE: And you also now remember that he also had a problem in Maritzburg, regarding violence, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: What I remember is that he once told me that there was violence in Pietermaritzburg.
	I don't know whether his (indistinct) was effected or involved, but he once mentioned that there was violence in Pietermaritzburg.  I had concentrated my efforts on the kwaMashu issue.
	I forgot about Kambule in Pietermaritzburg issue.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

MS THABETE: Just a few Mr Chairperson.  You spoke about the fact that sometimes the policeman would come to the township and patrol the area.  As a policeman did you ever go to the township to patrol your area, at kwaMashu?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It would happen sometimes.  In most cases, I was involved with the administrative side at work, but when there was sometimes violence at work, extra policemen would be required to go and assist and I would also go out.

MS THABETE: What was your role as policemen when this happened?   What did you want to achieve by going to the township?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: If there was violence or fighting, we would go there and try to bring about stability.  We will try to stop the fighting, although sometimes this did not work out.

MS THABETE: Would I be correct to say as a policeman and personally, as a person, you wanted peace in your area especially where your family was?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is what I wanted.

MS THABETE: So by providing ammunition and more guns to the people in your area, how did you think peace would be achieved?