Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes in fact here we are talking of a person who stays inside Thokoza, I grew inside Thokoza and that doesn't mean I didn't know what they're up to.  I said to you my ...(indistinct) was to know their activity and to report them to head office so I presume you people understand that, I was aware of certain things SDU's were doing.

ADV DE JAGER: Why I'm putting this to you is because you made a remark about the evidence leader, if she has read your application she would have known what you've said and that what wasn't what you've said, she was correct in asking you about it.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Okay.

MS PATEL: You've also stated in your application that - and I quote
"I was instructed by the MK regional command to form structures and give necessary training where it's needed."
You didn't state in your application that you were also entitled to give instructions to attack in the nature that you've specified here today.  Why is that?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I think it was not a policy of the ANC that we should attack people but as the case would go inside that township, as a person who saw what is happening daily.  Earlier I indicated to you that there was a pattern which was followed and which the TRC on their final report don't have it and one of the patterns was the funeral situation that I indicated earlier and normally when there was a funeral for an IFP member - let me put it straight, let's talk about the funeral that I mention.  Under normal situation when IFP members were marching to the graveyard, one will see them brandishing guns and the so-called traditional weapons and even kids knew that when they come back from the graveyard then they will start attacking innocently and they will kill on their way back to the ...(indistinct) so as a kid who grew inside the township I felt it's my responsibility to stop that.  Those were my instructions from my seniors to stop the funeral.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry I didn't get that, did you say those were not your instructions or those were your instructions?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I said those were not the instruction from the regional command, my seniors.

MS PATEL: Then my question to you is were you in your particular position that you held entitled to take the kind of decision to order the kind of in a sense almost operation that you did?  That's all that I'm trying to get at.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I will respond by saying the violence which was alleged inside Thokoza, it's unfortunate that we don't have something that you can rely on to show what was going now but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Machitje, all we want to know is if you were entitled to make that decision?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I was not entitled in a sense of the leadership giving me the go ahead that if you want to take a decision you can take it but as a human being as soldier I will study a situation and I will take decision even without consulting with my leaders.

MS PATEL: Would this have been the norm that given a particular situation under certain conditions people at your level would be able to take certain decisions without clarifying that with the higher command structures?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I would say yes.

MS PATEL: Alright.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: It's because here we are talking about a war zone we are not talking about another township and as I indicated that I was then a commander of the Thokoza MK structure.

MS PATEL: And would your ordinary members of your SDU have known that you would have been entitled to take this kind of decision and would have followed your orders without question?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I will first give you a little bit of background.  When I was arrested already inside the township Thokoza there were internal trained members of MK and when I was released it became easy for me to orientate myself with the situation and some of them were part and parcel of the defence of the community and yes, any decision that I will send in, any instruction that I will send in will be followed.

MS PATEL: And then just on the code of conduct, generally in terms of your own experience would the average member of the SDU, would he be au fait, he or she be au fait with the contents of the code of conduct.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: He will be?  Can you explain yourself?

MS PATEL: Meaning that would your average member of an SDU, the code of conduct that was in place, would they have known of it's existence of what's written in it and what is expected of them in terms of that code, in terms of your experience?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes I will say we did everything to go inside every section and explain?

ADV DE JAGER: But the question is whether your foot soldiers, not whether you knew and whether you tried to step within the bounds of the code of conduct but did your foot soldiers know what's the contents of the code of conduct?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I'll say maybe most, not all of them.  Here we are talking of a war situation, a situation that was inside Thokoza, it was a situation where there were people, ordinary people who formed their own unit and defend their street and I wouldn't say if they apply and say we were members of a defence unit and we were not aware of a code of conduct and then I will be surprised.

MS PATEL: Were there any disciplinary procedures that were followed for foot soldiers and in fact any member of the self defence units who clearly exceeded the bounds of the objectives of the code?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes there were measures which were taken, I'll make an example.  There is an extension in Thokoza that is called Extension 2 where there are members harassed the community by collecting money and I personally went to a meeting which was called there and the decision which was taken by the community was that I must take it to my ...(indistinct) I disarm them so every weapon which was used by them was taken from them.

MS PATEL: Would these disciplinary procedures be generally known amongst the foot soldiers that there were in place and that they would be implemented if they went beyond the bounds of their authorization?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I'll answer that by saying I indicated to you that everybody inside the township participated in defending the community so maybe most, not all of them, will have known that there are measures which are going to be taken if they - because here we had a situation, earlier I showed you a map of Thokoza.  When the violence started there were problems like foot soldiers from a certain section will move towards a section where they hear there is gunshots and when they pass these other sections, because of that section not responding to that they will be disarmed or there will be a serious clash among themselves.

MS PATEL: I seem to recall that in your evidence in chief you mentioned that instructions were given to kill the wife of Mbekesini Khumalo.  Did I hear you correctly?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: No you didn't hear me correctly.

MS PATEL: Could you clarify for me then please?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: What I said is there was a funeral of the wife of the Reverend Mbekesini Khumalo and as funerals of IFP was part of the pattern that took place inside Thokoza, I took it to myself to round every section commander and made it clear to them that funeral must not past Beirut section and Thokoza Garden.

ADV DE JAGER: But was she a member of the IFP?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes Mrs Mbekesini was a member of the IFP.

ADV DE JAGER: Did she die a natural death?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: No, no, I'm not quite sure how he was killed but one thing I know he died out of Thokoza, he was killed somewhere around in Springs if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she die of natural causes?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I can't remember clearly what happened.