Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is the way it sounds now, but in practice that is not the way it was, I don't know.  It is difficult to say how he spent his time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did he tell you about the contacts that he cultivated?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I beg your pardon?

MR KAHANOVITZ: The unaware members that he had managed to recruit, what did he tell you about them?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I cannot remember what he told me about them, except that he could use them.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You, as the man in charge, don't sound like you were particularly interested in how productive or otherwise, Mr Botha was being?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Botha and all the rest of us, we were still busy establishing ourselves properly.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But he could hardly be establishing himself on ice?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I beg your pardon?  No, I am talking about before then.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh, I see.  Please turn the page over to page 12, the 15th of March.  You will see the third line under "things to do", it says
"WPN (which I take it is short for 'wapen') for Deon."
	Deon is Calla Botha?  You are with me?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, I see that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, what is Calla Botha going to be doing with this weapon?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I cannot answer that question, because as far as I was concerned, I will have to draw inferences.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, draw some inferences.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It may be that he asked for the issue of a pistol for him, for his own private use which ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: Private use?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: For private use  yes, or it might have been a different Deon, I am not sure.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Is it correct that those of you who were travelling out of the country, were given false passports?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: On the need to know basis on which we worked, I didn't travel on a false passport.  I assume that it was at members' disposal.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Let me put the question to you in another way.   Certainly Mr Basson was in the business of obtaining false identity documents and false passports, are you aware of that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is possible.

MR LAX: Sorry, just in terms of your last answer, were you aware of that or weren't you?  It is possible, doesn't say whether you were aware of it, all it says is that it is possible that he did that?  Do you know whether he ...

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know whether he did it, but the facility was available.

MR LAX: And you knew about the facility?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What identity did you use when you travelled to Namibia or then South-West Africa?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I used my own passport.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Your own passport?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you need passports at that time?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: By plane.  It is an interesting question, I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You cannot remember, now that I ask you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, you asked me in whose name, I went under my own name.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But if you are flying to a foreign country, and do something there, the very first thing they are going to look at, is who has flown in and who has flown out in the recent past?  It wouldn't really make sense to make use of your own identity, would it?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I didn't go there to do anything illegal.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I am putting that to you as a general proposition regarding the nature of the CCB's work, forget about yourself.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I understand what you mean, but at that stage I travelled under my own name.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Then on that same page it say
"...NB, phone Hekkies."
	Now, my understanding of the evidence has been that you phone Hekkies when you need things like bombs and so on and so forth, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know Hekkies.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You don't know who Hekkies van Heerden is?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Nobody told you where they got the limpet mine from for the Early Learning Centre?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.  As I have told Mr Lax now, I was aware of the facility, but I didn't know the people and I never visited the premises.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Turn to page 14 please, the 19th of April.    Once again, the second line
"... more ammunition for Region 6"
	Correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then further down the page  it says
"... Bert (which is a reference to you) computer viruses tape ..."
	what is that about?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't quite remember?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It doesn't ring any bells?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, you will have to ask Mr Basson to tell you, I really don't have any idea.  I know very little, if anything, about computers.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, you are going to see when we go through other entries in this diary, that certainly as regards those things that we know, when a person's name appears and then there is a dash and then there is a mention made of an event or a project, that relates back to that person.  You, to the very best of your knowledge, were not involved in any project or event concerning computer viruses?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Not that I can remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Not that you can remember, all right.  Then you will turn the page, might I just ask you, what is your understanding of what a dummy  handgrenade is?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Of a what?

MR KAHANOVITZ: A dummy handgrenade?  What do you call a handgrenade that explodes in the person's hand when they try to activate it?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You know what I am referring to, when you doctor a handgrenade so that the person who uses is, blows themselves up?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that not called a dummy handgrenade?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You don't know, all right?  Look at the top of the page, once again it says
"... Phone Hekkies, dets for handgrenade ..."
	it appears to be a reference to detonators for handgrenades?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you know anything about that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You are not aware of any project involving Region 6 that involved the use of handgrenades?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  Then turn the page, 25 April, and it is page 16.  Look at the entries for Region 6 for the salaries.  You will see Chappie Maree has received R6 452-00, are you with me?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Whereas if you turn back to page 4, you will see in that month, his salary was R3 805-00.   Now, why was Mr le Roux being paid, sorry Mr Maree, being paid so much money at the end of April?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Once again, I would have to draw an inference.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Isn't it a bonus?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.  I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why should he get paid more than you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't think he ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't think he would have received a bonus on his record as at that date.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, that is based on what you are telling us?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I am just asking you to give us a logical explanation for why he is being paid so much money.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said he doesn't know, he said he doesn't know.  It might be back-pay, we don't know, he said he can only infer.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Look at the top of that page, next to the entry "ten o'clock", it says
"... Region 6, Nico Bessenger ..."
	that appears to be an entry for a meeting of Region 6 concerning Nico Bessenger, do you agree with me?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, Nico Bessenger is a person who was high up in SWAPO, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you attend that meeting?