Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-08

ADV STEENKAMP: Honourable Members, Mr Chairman, first of all, from my side I do apologise for starting late, there were certain logistical problems.  Mr Chairman the first witness I'll be calling is Mr Scheepers.  Mr Scheepers will be testifying in Afrikaans Mr Chairman, if there is no objection.

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: (sworn states)

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  	Mr Scheepers is it correct if I say that you are a retired police officer and that you retired to the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: Johannes Abraham Scheepers.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Can you just quickly sketch the background of where you worked up until the time you retired?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: Chairperson I was involved with the Security Branch of the South African Police since 1976, and the branch in Benoni that is, where I had several positions until the end of March 1988 when I was
appointed as the Commander of that branch, end of March 1988.  I was Commander in Benoni since 1988 until December 1993 when I was transferred to the Regional Office in Braamfontein, Johannesburg.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Scheepers can you tell us, do you know anything concerning the Wimpy attacks which happened on the 30th of July 1988, do you know of this incident?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: Yes I do.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you just quickly tell us how did you learn about this incident?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: I was at the scene of the crime.  I was the Commander of the branch, and my personnel investigated the whole situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this after the incident?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: After the incident I arrived at the scene several minutes after it actually took place, as soon as I learned about it.

ADV STEENKAMP: Colonel the allegation which the applicants make is that the Wimpy was attacked or was identified as a target because high superior officers of the Security Branch often visited this Wimpy, and on Saturdays they'll have meetings there and they'd also meet with informants.  Can you give any comment on that?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: Chairperson our personnel meeting were held in our offices on Fridays, and that was at the current police station at Harper Lane which is about 1 1/2 km away from the scene of the crime.  We never gathered in the Wimpy, or we never went to eat there as a group of personnel and I do not know of any one of my personnel who would have met informants there.

ADV STEENKAMP: During this incident 1988, where were was the security offices and where was the police station with regards to the Wimpy?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: The police station in Benoni since April 1980 is in Antholl Lane in Benoni, and the Security Branch since December 1979 it was situated at the same place in Harper Lane before it was actually opened officially, so the Security Branch was since '79, December in Harper Lane.

ADV STEENKAMP: How far is that from the Wimpy, the police station, how far is from the Wimpy?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: About a kilometre and a half.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know of a police kiosk which was situated close to the Wimpy?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: Chairperson in the centre of town and this area, there was a kiosk which was manned by reservists, about 50 metres from the Wimpy.  The reservists, especially on Saturday, they'd man this kiosk on a Saturday to serve the public there in the centre of town.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know of any occasion where food would have been ordered from the Wimpy by the policemen from the station, maybe to get food for the detainees or the people who were interrogated, do you know anything about that?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: No not at all, I know nothing of that.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you just tell us what was the practice when you dealt with informants?  What was the practice, what did you used to do?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: Chairperson the informants were met at places where they were safe themselves, and also to make sure their identity was protected and we also had to make sure that it was safe for the member who was involved, places where the public did not have access to easily, or if it was in public, it would be in a very busy place where they would not be noticed.  It was not the practice to meet them in a Wimpy Bar.

ADV STEENKAMP: And finally I'd just like to know your comment on this, you see that one of the applicants said that he recognised this place and that he gained information, and his information told him that on Saturdays around lunch, superior officers of the Security Branch would gather there.

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: I was the Commander of the branch in Benoni and I never met my people there.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he meant to say that you were part of it, but can you dispute the fact that some of your men did meet there on a Saturday afternoon, or had lunch there?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: I cannot dispute the fact that a man went there, but this allegation considering that it's superior officers, definitely not.  It might be that one guy with his family might have gone there, but not as a group, that was not out practice.

ADV STEENKAMP: And the question I'd also like to ask you, is that allegation was made that police vehicles with "P" or "B" registration plates which was according to allegations used by the Security Branch, it was noticed outside of this building.  Do you know anything of that?  Would the security personnel drive of these vehicles?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: No, we used vehicles that could not be distinguished from others, they had normal plates so they were not identifiable.  A person who wanted to identify one of our vehicles had to go through a long period of observation to determine whether it's used by security personnel or not.

ADV STEENKAMP: And can you also tell the Committee what happened to the docket?  What was the end result of this docket?  Were the investigations stopped, what happened?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: The docket was investigated, and all of these dockets were at one point sent to Pretoria Head Office and they were busy with the political negotiations, and prosecutions were stopped.  We no longer have the dockets available to us.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now your information as Security Chief, would you ever think that these Wimpies could have been a military target?  What was your experience afterwards, what was considered to be targets that might be attacked, military targets?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: Usually it was installations, power lines, water-pipes, etc.  The Wimpy was a civilian target, that was something else.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi have you got any questions?

MR KOOPEDI: Just a few, if I may proceed.  And may I put the questions in English rather instead of Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: As you please, yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Scheepers you have testified that there was a kiosk about 50 metres from the Wimpy Bar.  Now my question is, who manned this kiosk, was it manned by ordinary police, or was it manned by security personnel like Special Branch people?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi he has already said it was manned by reservists.  Do you dispute the fact that there may have been a kiosk?

MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases.  Now I've also heard you say that you could not dispute the fact that any of your members could have gone to this Wimpy on one occasion or another.  But now my question is, if people from time to time bought food at Wimpy, would this be a matter that is known to you or reported to you that they buy food at this place?

JOHANNES ABRAHAM SCHEEPERS: No I would not know if someone in his personal capacity would go and buy food at the Wimpy, or even frequented the place.