Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR BLACK: Yes, I am about to wind up Mr Chairman.  You understand that you may be given further opportunity to answer any further questions at a later stage?  I just want to put it to you the allegations by the community that you
were either seen to be against the community, that you deny, is that correct?  Is that correct or not?

MR MASUPA: I am against that.

JUDGE WILSON: He has already denied that, he has told us he was a comrade.

MR BLACK: Fine.  So at this stage, are there any further comments that you want to make on the evidence of Mr Ndlovu about allegations made against you?

MR MASUPA: Yes Sir.

MR BLACK: Please make them.

MR MASUPA: After I've known him, we never entered a conflict or exchanged words.  Even those who came with him, because all of them were my neighbours.  I would like to ask Mr Ndlovu to explain that who sent them to burn, to come and burn at my mother's place.  He must tell us what did they want from me.  I was never in his company anywhere except Lazzie.  All of them were not my friends, my friend was Lazarus.  They should tell this Commission what did they want from me and who sent them to go and burn my mother's place because all what he has said so far, is not true.  If he wants forgiveness he must tell the truth, he must leave things which has happened long ago, which we were not involved in them.

MR BLACK: Are you in favour of amnesty being granted to Mr Ndlovu?  The question is ...

JUDGE WILSON: Is that relevant?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black it is for us to decide on the evidence whether there should be amnesty.  Whether the witness would be in favour of amnesty or against amnesty, we've got to look at the law and whether it complies with the Act that we should decide whether he should get amnesty.

MR BLACK: As the Commission pleases.  I have nothing further to put to the witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Currin, have you got any clarification?

MR CURRIN: I have no questions for clarification.
NO EXAMINATIN BY MR CURRIN

JUDGE WILSON: Do you want to ask anything?

SISI KHAMPEPE: No.

JUDGE WILSON: You may go.
WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE WILSON: I understand that the proposal is we should now adjourn this hearing to a date to be arranged and to enable the parties to make further enquiries and if necessary to lead further evidence.  Is that so?

MR BLACK: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I would now direct on behalf of the Committee, Mr Black, that you should in consultation with Mr Currin, give us as soon as possible please, detailed information as to precisely what, how the other five people who were there that day, have been dealt with.
	That is as to whether they were given general amnesty, whether they were given specific indemnity, whether they have served their sentences and if necessary, we would like
proof of what has happened to them.
	The second matter is we request you to subpoena this man, Aubrey, I think we've now got his surname, Nqomalo, to give evidence at the next hearing.
	And the third is that we would ask you to direct the investigative unit to make enquiries at the school as to the school record of the applicant.  And to obtain, if necessary copies, if possible, copies of his school reports.  
	There is nothing any other parties want directed for the next hearing, is there?

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, just one thing.  The other matter that was set down was the matter of Wilson Sebiloane.  I just think that we need to at least note that it should have been dealt with and that it is going to be postponed.  The applicant has been here for the last day and a half, expecting his matter to be dealt with, although he was told that the policemen had not been contacted and I would like to record that Mr Black and I will get together and try and arrange a date as soon as possible, even if it means that I have to travel to Mpumalanga, wherever you may be, because the applicant obviously anticipated that his matter would be dealt with and it is clearly distressing to an applicant who is in prison, to have his matter postponed indefinitely.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, I think I should perhaps indicate for any interested parties the reason why we cannot proceed with this matter is that one of the victims, one of the two policemen, or the only surviving victim, has not been given notice of the hearing, as he is entitled to and as the Appellate Division has said, should be done.
	There was apparently some difficulty in tracing him, although it appears he is still a member of the South
African Police Force and the last we were told was that they had now reduced it to a possible of two policemen.
	I would request that contact be made with him as soon as possible, that he be informed of the position of his rights as to whether he wishes to attend the hearing, whether he wishes to make representations and it may be that he would like to give evidence as to what in fact transpired on that day and I think that is a matter that should be investigated as soon as possible.
	Once that has been done, and once it is certain that we can give him proper notice and that he will also be able to attend the hearing, I agree to Mr Currin's request that arrangements should then be made to have a hearing as soon as possible.  It is not part-heard before the present Committees, so it can be set down at any other sitting where the parties can make themselves available.
	I direct that that be done.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: The matter is accordingly adjourned to a date, or not adjourned, I think just removed from our roll with the direction that it be set down for hearing as soon as it is possible.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you and I would like to thank everybody who has assisted us here over the last few days.  Particularly the people who are usually forgotten, sitting as they do in little boxes at the end of the room and who are the only people who have to work the whole time, thank you all.  We will now adjourn.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS