Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, he told me that he wasn't really at liberty to speak to me, that he wasn't at liberty to discuss the matter with me.  He gave me two names that I could contact, two names of attorneys and I also received numbers from Lynn, for attorneys, and then I decided to take someone that I preferred to have as my representation.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, you said that you never had any scholastic training, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR MARTINI: I just want to ask you once more, because I've seen that your attorney has asked you, this statement that you made when you were in jail, can you read it today?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR MARTINI: And at that stage you hadn't read it?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And did the police read it out to you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR MARTINI: Very well.  Then is it possible that what is embodied therein, or at least in sections thereof, could not be correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Then I just want to put this paragraph to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us the page reference.

MR MARTINI: I will, Chairperson.  Sorry Chairperson, I'm trying to question him in Afrikaans and listen in English, so ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Why don't you question him in English and it will be translated for him, and you'll be much more comfortable.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, if you look at page 154, bundle B...

CHAIRPERSON: He can't read.

MR MARTINI: That's the problem.  I'll read it to him Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 9 of the statement made at Secunda, Mr Hardien - but ...(indistinct) have you got it?

MR MARTINI: Possibly your attorney, Mr Hardien, can have a look at it and I'll read it out and he can advise you if I'm reading it correctly.  This forms part of your statement when you were detained under Section 29, and you say, and I read it now
"I had to take the second bag with me so that someone would ask me where my bag was and then I would have the second bag on me."
Is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR MARTINI: Very well.  It then goes on, it says
"I said to him that if people were to die or be injured, I wouldn't do it."
Is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I didn't hear properly.

MR MARTINI: In this statement you say at page 154, last paragraph
"I said to him that if anyone were to die or be injured, I would not do it."
Is that correct.  Is that a correct version?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I will be with you shortly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, what do you say?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You say no.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just hold on.  I wasn't clear on your answer there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I was just going to get some clarity.  Mr Martini read you an excerpt from the statement
"I said to him that if people were to be killed or injured, I wouldn't do it."
and he asked you is that the truth, is that correct, that part of your statement.

MR MARTINI: Could I possibly help ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just let's hear his answer man, just hold it, I want to hear his answer.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a straightforward question, Mr Hardien, it's not going to incriminate you or anything like that.  All that is asked, we've got this statement here which you dispute, we know that you can't read and it was made long ago, so you might remember what you said to the police, but if you can't remember, just tell us.  That excerpt from the statement where you said to Mr van Zyl
"Look, if people are going to die or get injured, I'm not going to put the bomb there"
is that correct or is it incorrect?

MR LAX: In other words, did you say to Mr van Zyl: "Listen, if people are going to die and get injured with this bomb, then I'm not going to do this for you"?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Mr Lax, that's exactly as I was going to put it to the witness, that way.
	So you said to Mr van Zyl that if people were to be killed or injured you were not prepared to do it, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now is the following correct, on the same page - let me ask you, De Wet, that's Mr van Zyl, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: Did Mr van Zyl say to you that he also did not want "mense" to get hurt or die in the incident?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: Now just let me deal with relevant facts, I'm going to put certain things to you to see if you agree with them, from your evidence.  It is correct the you planted the bomb in a "saal" at the Early Learning Centre, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: And the bomb at the time was in a sack and you then placed this bomb which is in the sack, into a cardbox box, apple box ...(intervention)

MR LAX: It was in a bag, not a sack.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: In a bag, placed into a cardboard apple box, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: Now at the time that the bomb - who do you say "het die knoppie gedruk"?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Botha.

MR MARTINI: At the time that the knoppie was "drukked", were you at the back of the hall where the parking lot is?

ISGAK HARDIEN: We were behind the hall.

MR MARTINI: Okay.  And is it your version that when the button was depressed, the people had left the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now I just want to understand one thing, the hall, is that the "saal"?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Is that the hall where the bomb was placed?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR MARTINI: Now according to you the reason why you say that is because all the cars had left from the parking lot, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Now did you see the people leave?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: Just while you're looking.
	Were the lights on, Mr Hardien, of the building that evening, at the time that you pressed the button, or that Mr Botha pressed the button?  Were the lights still on?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The outside lights were on.  Against the wall there were lights and they were on.

MR LAX: And the internal lights?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember if the lights were off in the hall, but outside the hall there were lights on, so that you can see there.  I cannot remember if it was on.

MR LAX: Please carry on, Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: I think this will be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment for 20 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ISGAK HARDIEN: (s.u.o.)

UNKNOWN: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS

MR VAN ECK: Mr Hardien, that day at the airport was the first time that you saw Mr Botha and that was also the last time that you saw him at the hall, you did not see him any time after that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: In the whole process you had nothing further to do with him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK

MR COETZEE: I have no questions from my side.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: We've agreed that Mr Williams should go before us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Gakkie, I understand that at the stage when the bomb was planted, you possibly had feelings towards members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, feelings that were not very good, but today as you're sitting there now, do you feel regret, do you feel that you shouldn't have planted the bomb there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Repeat your question please.

MR WILLIAMS: At the stage when you planted the bomb you possibly not like some of the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, and there was probably not a very good relationship between you and some of the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement and today as you're sitting here now, do you feel regret that you planted the bomb there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.