Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-26

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  Just one last question, did you ever make an allegation - perhaps I would read something to you very briefly because I think it's important that you hear this.  In an interview that Mrs Mandela made with NBC on the 1st of February 1989 - transcripts have been made available, she says and I quote
"In this incident, this despicable incident of the church we talk about, the so-called Mandela United is supposed to have kidnapped these children to force them to join Umkhonto weSizwe, the military wing of the ANC.  You see, if you spread propaganda of that sort, that we go so far as to kidnap children to compel them to join Umkhonto, what could be more damaging to the community than that"?
She goes on to say:
"We do not abduct children to compel them to join Umkhonto weSizwe, it's purely voluntary on the part of those youths who do not leave the country to join the military forces of the ANC, and that is what is being said.  Paul Verryn maintains that we were doing that".
Did you ever make such an allegation?

PAUL VERRYN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, can you move your mike so that you don't keep bumping into it, thank you.

MR PIGOU: Did you ever make such an allegation?

PAUL VERRYN: No, I didn't.

MR PIGOU: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Bishop, according to Falati, she says Cebekhulu for the first time alleges that he was sodomised by you, and then Falati takes that story to Mrs Madikezela-Mandela, am I correct to think, at least from that point, that Falati must have had something to do with this pain you suffered as a result of this rumour?

PAUL VERRYN: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Do you seek reconciliation with her?

PAUL VERRYN: Mrs Falati has written a 9-paged apology to me.

MR SEMENYA: [intervention] And you have reconciled?

PAUL VERRYN: And I have tried to deal with some of these issues with her.

MR SEMENYA: It seems to me, that at least at the time before these allegations were retracted, there was indeed such allegations said about you.

PAUL VERRYN: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And it would have been disturbing allegations to somebody who had a political responsibility about such matters, is that correct?

PAUL VERRYN: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: It would not have been incorrect for Mrs Mandela to take the attitude she did if she believed in the correctness of those rumours, is that correct?

PAUL VERRYN: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: She had not known you before that time, is that right?

PAUL VERRYN: She still really doesn't know me.

MR SEMENYA: Ja, but even at that time she didn't know you personally to - ?

PAUL VERRYN: No.

MR SEMENYA: You are not aware of any reason why she would have had reason to discredit you, is that right?

PAUL VERRYN: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Now, about Cebekhulu, at the time he came to live at the Manse he hadn't given you an impression that he was from Mrs Mandela's house?

PAUL VERRYN: No.

MR SEMENYA: It is the first time you hear after, the books, that he alleges to have been from that house, is that right?

PAUL VERRYN: That's correct.

MR SEMENYA: Now, we had put it to Falati as well that she is the one who had a difficulty with Pelo and them about household chores. She denies that but it is correct, that's how it happened, is that right?

PAUL VERRYN: That certainly was my perception.

MR SEMENYA: And you actually intervened when Falati accused this little boy Stompie of being an informer, is that right?

PAUL VERRYN: I did.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I do not know - before I give other people a chance, Bishop Paul Verryn has addressed your client.  I am not aware whether your client wishes to take the opportunity of responding to this here or whether she will want to say something because he's spoken from a broken heart.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, with the greatest of respect, my instructions are yes, Mrs Mandela would want to communicate with the Bishop but - and holds a view that if the Bishop had meant to communicate what he communicated today, previously, he could very well have done that.  And she will take the opportunity outside of this, what we believe to be a camera scenario, to reconcile with Bishop Verryn about these matters.  And incidentally I learn that he is the Bishop of the church to which my client belongs.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  ...[inaudible] sometimes when you speak - I'm speaking pastorally, because in a way this thing is not just a private matter between them, it is something that has affected very many people.  You can't obviously say to somebody: "This is what you must do".  I had just thought that you would have wanted to have an opportunity - yes, in the publicity that would arise from whatever it might have been that would happen, that is why I gave that opportunity. It was that I'm speaking now as a pastor.
 I would hope that the engagement between you two is something that would happen as quickly as possible so that you can have the burden that you have been carrying for so long be lifted.  And that the anguish, which is not just your own, it is the anguish of many people, many who - your family must have gone through hell, and you probably had people who believed you, and there were people who doubted, and there were people who did not believe you.  And I therefore hope - again speaking just as a Pastor - that I understand the reluctance, but I would hope that it can happen as soon as possible.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you, Chair.
 Bishop, the people who landed in your Manse, the displaced and disrupted people, who referred them to you, or did they simply find their own way to you?

PAUL VERRYN: Some of them I think brought friends, and some of them were referred by community people, and some of them were referred by church.

<UNKNOWN>: How many other such places of refuge were there in your area at the time?

<UNKNOWN>: There were some of our Ministers who were trying to help with the sanctuary programme, as it was called, and then we did have a Bosmont Community Centre that was used for a while as a sanctuary.

<UNKNOWN>: And it would be true to say that at the time such places were in rather short supply?

PAUL VERRYN: Absolutely.

<UNKNOWN>: And it would also be true to say that Mrs Madikezela- Mandela's home was also one of the places to which people could go for refuge?

PAUL VERRYN: I should think so.

<UNKNOWN>: And it would also flow logically that - as you say you had 10 or 20, Mrs Mandela would have the same sort of numbers, it would be appropriate to find some sort of occupation for the people to do?

PAUL VERRYN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And it would also then be ordinary to say that at some point the idea of forming a football club would be an obvious activity?

PAUL VERRYN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now, your relationship with Miss Falati, when did you first meet her?

PAUL VERRYN: I really cannot remember, it was certainly before she moved into the mission house.

<UNKNOWN>: It could have been in Kwatima, if I'm not mistaken.

PAUL VERRYN: It could have been, it could also have been that she came to Khotso House.  She worked alongside Bishop Mkwane for quite a long time as well - I'm not clear about that. I can't give you a date, for instance.

<UNKNOWN>: So, she wasn't a complete stranger whose personal characteristics were unknown to you?

PAUL VERRYN: That is true.

<UNKNOWN>: Now the impression - and I have only yesterday to go by, is that she is a highly emotional and somewhat reactive person, over-reactive indeed.

PAUL VERRYN: I think that needs to be put into a context.

<UNKNOWN>: Please do so.

PAUL VERRYN: I think she has been exposed to a considerable amount of brutality, particularly considering some of the work that she was doing in the township where she was, and so I have always understood that some of that - what seems like irrational reactiveness - comes from  that place.