Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: He played no role.  Dr Ode was a newly appointed medical officer, he joined our Department from the United Kingdom and we were training him, so he was, he joined us about two weeks prior to that date, and I decided to give him some exposure to an exhumation.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Just please explain this also, you gave us your qualifications and you said that you studied at St George's School of Medicine and then you said the Headquarters of that School of Medicine is in New York, is that where you studied, or did you study elsewhere or, how does it work?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, no, the Headquarters of the University is based in New York, but the University has different campuses.

MR VISSER: Okay.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: My clinical training for instance, was in the United Kingdom.  My final examinations were in New York, so I did travel around.

MR VISSER: But it was all under the auspices, I think that is what you intended to say, of ...

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes, of St George's.

MR VISSER: Alright.  When did you finish with your studies, Doctor?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: With my Doctorate degree in Medicine, in 1994.

MR VISSER: 1994?  Did you then come out to South Africa immediately?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct, yes.

MR VISSER: And did you then start working in the profession in which you explained that you at the time, at this time, the whole five years?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is, yes, I did a year of clinical medicine and then ...

MR VISSER: Yes, alright, so from approximately 1995 to date?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Visser, when you say you were a member of the Department of Forensic Medicine, what Department ...

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes, prior to the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what Department is that, a government Department or a University Department?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: The Department of Forensic Medicine ...

CHAIRPERSON: Or both?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: It is a State Department which has affiliations to the University.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just so that we are clear, is that the University of Natal?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

MR LAX: Durban?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Durban, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, well Doctor, great minds think alike, because that was really the question I wanted to ask you.  In other words you were in the government's service from 1995 as a pathologist, to date you are?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What precisely would your duties have comprised of, would you have chambers or rooms in Durban or would you sit out at a mortuary all day, just tell us more or less what this comprises?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Okay, essentially with the practise of Forensic Medicine, we view autopsies usually in the mornings and that is at Gale Street mortuary, State mortuary, sometimes we go out to other mortuaries, depending where we are required.  Following that, we tend to do whatever reports need to be done, or whatever consultations need to be done, any opinions for courts and things like that, we do specialised tests.
	And in between we have court appearances as well as attend crime scenes.

MR VISSER: Alright, yes.  You see, I was really aiming to find out, perhaps I should ask you, simply ask you the question, at the time in 1997, you were busy then for approximately two years, I am not even going to restrict you to that, in the whole of your experience, how many exhumations would you say have you done, many, some or what?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Well, I have done, I will put the figure around 20.

MR VISSER: 20?  Can you try to remember how many of those were at Charlottedale?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Sorry, at?

MR VISSER: Charlottedale?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, this was the first at Charlottedale.

MR VISSER: The first at Charlottedale?  Alright, well then would Dr Naidoo have perhaps a wider experience of exhumations at Charlottedale than yourself, would you imagine?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I cannot answer that.

MR VISSER: Yes, well then perhaps I better ask him?    We were given to understand from the evidence of Ms Miller, that she was present, as you say and that when the grave was opened, the remains that were found, were not in the position which appear or appears, from photographs which we have in our possession.
	First of all, I see you are frowning with shock-disbelief.  The point is that these photographs were not taken at the grave site?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.  If you look at my report, one of the reasons I stated that I terminated my investigations, was that I did not have a photographer to document my findings.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Did you find that extraordinary?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No.  No.

MR VISSER: Are exhumations normally done without photographers?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, I tend to do all my exhumations with photographers.  You see, because I didn't make all the arrangements for this exhumation, I could not guarantee the presence of my auxiliary staff.

MR VISSER: Yes, I accept that.   What I want you to do is to look at, is the police docket perhaps available, so that the Doctor can look at a colour photograph, because a black and white photocopy is going to be of no use.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you can look at it, and try to remember it as best as possible, and then we will pass it over to Dr Aiyer?

MR VISSER: Yes.  Chairperson, I am referring to the photograph which appears at page 49 of Bundle 2, and - thank you, I am chasing you around today.

CHAIRPERSON: At page 39 you say?

MR VISSER: Page 49.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 49, the bottom of page 49?

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson.  At this stage, you will recall, we haven't given them, because we are still awaiting a further photograph of Ms Kubheka, and that was the one which Prof Vanezis says he sent back to Dr Naidoo.  That one we haven't received yet, and I would imagine that that one would be one of either, 3, 4 or 5.
	If we want to mark the photograph, we would want to start with 6, I would presume, but there is a problem with that, because some of the photos are missing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what we will do, we will number the photos when we have them all.

MR VISSER: I think so Chairperson, with respect.  And at this stage, we might refer to this ...

CHAIRPERSON: It is page 49, Volume 2, although we cannot see it properly.

MR VISSER: Yes, you will see there is an identifying figure, it says figure 2, so perhaps we can just refer to it by that identification in the meantime.

MR LAX: Should we not just refer to these photographs as being from that photo album, refer to the photo album, figure 1, figure 2, figure 3, and then it is a separate identifiable, separate bundle on its own?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I don't mind.  I thought ...

MR LAX: And then whatever number we give it in due course, would be, let's say it is for example, it is T, Exhibit T, it will just be T1, T2, T3, as per the Bundle.

MR VISSER: If you wish to make it a separate exhibit number, there is no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We can at this stage just refer to it as it appears in Volume 2.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  Dr Aiyer, I hope I am pronouncing your surname correctly?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  May I assume that that is not how you found the body?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: You may assume that, that is correct.

MR VISSER: You see, because the assumption is based on what you say in your report, your cursory observations which you made about the ...(indistinct)

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: The bones, yes.

MR VISSER: The bones, and so on, that you could never tell from ...

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No.

MR VISSER: So what we must assume then is that during transportation, because you say you lifted it up very carefully, with the body bag I take it?