Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-09

MARY BURTON: If there are family members who would like now to come and join the family as they move out, you may please come up by that stairs.  We ask the other witnesses though to remain where they are.  Good afternoon Mr Kopung.  Can you hear now.

PAULOS KOPUNG: Yes, I can hear.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.  Please will you stand to take to oath.
PAULOS KOPUNG  Duly sworn states

MARY BURTON: I will hand you over now to Ms Seroke.

MS SEROKE: We will talk in Xhosa because there is no-one interpreting Sesotho today.  Mr Kopung we'll ask you to tell us briefly the situation at that moment as you have written it in your statement.

PAULOS KOPUNG: It was on a Saturday night.  I met one of the policeman, his name was David, David Marhamba.  We had a conflict with David Marhamba when one lady try to intervene and we stopped this fight I went home to sleep.  
Early in the morning on Sunday when I woke up, David arrived, accompanied by Xolile Sakathi.  On their arrival, they wanted to see me, therefore I went out to see them.  They wanted to know if I knew what I did last night.  They ask me that I must accompany them to the office.  My father said I must please leave with them.  I did so.  I left with them.
When we got to gate, Xolile said he'd like, excuse me please, he said he'd like to hand-cuff me.  I didn't allow that.  I refused.   He said to me he will shoot me if I refuse to do that.  I said he can gladly do that.  Then he took out his firearm and he threatened to shoot me, but the other policeman stopped him.  Then they left me and we proceeded.  
When we got to the charge office, on arrival there, they said I must sit and wait.  Whilst I was waiting, another policeman entered.  His name is Dan Marhamba.  I was still standing with this other two.  They undressed their overcoats and then he said this is the dog and they say yes.  He kicked me, he kicked me in my private parts and they beat me and that was the beginning of the fight.  They beat me up with all their batons.
Xolile kicked me and David and David Riet and Dan.  They beat up, they assaulted me.  I asked to be excused to go the toilet.  When I got to the toilet, whilst I was in the toilet Xolile said to me he said I must please go out so I should run away so that they can shoot me and to death.  I refused to run away.  They took me back again.  
Whilst they took me back in there, another one arrived.  It was not a policeman.  His name is Themba.  He was just a detective.  He took me and then he threw me on the floor and then he was banging me against the cement floor.  And when I tried to stand, he would bang me again on the floor and the other one said that they should leave me and I should go back home and come back at four.  They released me.  
On my way there I met Mr Gcanga who is a teacher.  I told him I was beat up by police.  He took me, gave me a lift in his car.  Then we went to the in charge.  He asked him if somebody is on the wrong, is he arrested or is he beaten up.  He said no a person should just be arrested.  He just wanted to know if he could take me to the hospital.  Yes, he agreed then I was taken to the hospital.  And therefore Mr Gcanga took me to the hospital.  
On arrival at the hospital I had to be admitted.  Whilst I was sleeping, I don't remember clearly how many days I spent at the hospital.  Then I was discharged.  My mother collected me.  We went to the police station with my mother.  On arrival there they gave us to go to the doctor.  On arrival at the doctor's rooms, the doctor counted all the assault marks.  It was Doctor Kemp.  He saw all the injuries that I sustained.  
We went back to the police station with my mother.  The policeman who was there was Constable Nfengwane.  He took a statement.  And thereafter we went home and I was told that I will be informed of the date I was to appear in court.  
And I stayed for about a month and nothing happened.  My father said that we rather get a lawyer.  We got a lawyer from Bloemfontein, Mr Botha - Mr Gerber Botha.  He investigated my case.  I think we stayed round about a month when detectives arrived.  It was Thabo. He took me the police station and took a statement.  It was quite a while at the police station and then I was called and was given a date to appear in court.  
When we got in court the case was postponed, but ultimately we appeared in court.  My lawyer was there.  It started from nine o'clock until four o'clock.  Then they told me that the case will be postponed to a further date that I cannot remember clearly.  We went there on that particular date.  I was told that I was asked whether I did see Doctor Kemp.  I was just asked if I did see Doctor Kemp.  Yes, yes I said I did see him, he was standing outside.  Then I was told that Doctor Kemp had brought in your testimony.  
The lawyer of the accused just talked and thereafter and the Magistrate although said but the interpreter told me that these people were found not guilty.  The one thing that hurt me my witnesses were not there, my lawyer was not there.  The doctor didn't give his statement.  I just heard that the following day that the case was dismissed.

MS SEROKE: You say in your statement the reason for your conflict between yourself and Dan was to do with football matters.

PAULOS KOPUNG: Yes, it is so.

MS SEROKE: Now there was nothing about politic in that or there was nothing political about that.  Can somebody be beaten up so much to the extent of being hand-cuffed because of football conflict.

PAULOS KOPUNG: Yes, it's happened.

MS SEROKE: Have you ever toi-toied before?

PAULOS KOPUNG: No, I was never interested in the toi-toi.

MS SEROKE: You say again they told you they finished with you - you must start running.  What made you refuse not to run.

PAULOS KOPUNG: He said that I must run so that he will be able to shoot me.  So I didn't want to run so they will be able to shoot me.

MS SEROKE: Was it something they were used to doing.

PAULOS KOPUNG: Yes, I am not sure if it was something they were used to doing.
MS SEROKE Because you are to second person to say that you were told to run, but they refused because of the same reason you gave.  It's quite clear that if somebody started running, they would shoot him or her.  As we proceed, you did report your case to Nfengwana?

PAULOS KOPUNG: Yes, firstly it was reported to Nfengwana.

MS SEROKE: Was this the very same Nfengwana they went into his house when the children were attacked.

PAULOS KOPUNG: Yes, it's the very same person.

MS SEROKE: What hope did you have when you reported this.  What hope did you have to report him, his friends to him.

PAULOS KOPUNG: I wanted to see if it will proceed or no.  I had intentions that should it not be successful, I'll do it my way.

MS SEROKE: Did you ask your doctor and to your lawyer as to why they didn't appear in court to give their statements?  Didn't  you ask him as someone who paid your attorney.  Didn't you try and find out why he didn't appear.  He said that if goes there every time, he said that every time he appears I'll have to pay him.

MS SEROKE: And therefore you gave up or the case was dismissed already.  In your statement you said that you plead with the Truth Commission it must go further with this investigation.  You are not happy.  You want the truth to be revealed and you don't like the manner in which your case was handled.  We will refer this to the investigating team as you requested and see if there is anything further they can reveal.

PAULOS KOPUNG: Thank you.