Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, they sent us to Diepkloof for a few months, and after that, we went to Pretoria Maximum, on death penalty, on death row, and after the death penalty was demolished, we were transferred back to Diepkloof, back to Pretoria Maximum again, and for the - from February last year to February this year, I was held in Leeukop.

ADV SIGODI: And at all times you've all been together as applicants, I mean you've been in the same prison with the other applicants?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Sorry, can you repeat the question please?

ADV SIGODI: What I want to find out is, have you always been transferred together... (intervention).

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: ...together with the other applicants?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, except the last time... (intervention).

ADV SIGODI: This last time now in February?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, February, I was transferred all by myself to Diepkloof.

ADV SIGODI: So at the time that you made the application, you were all together in the same prison?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, we were in Leeukop the last application, that's right.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, thanks very much.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, may I just, in view of the last question and the last answer?   Mr Visser, when you've just answered that when you submitted these applications you were all together, are you
meaning all the applicants except my two clients?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, yes.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Kloppers was not there either, he was in the hospital at that stage?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I think so, but the majority of us were together, that is correct.

MR KNOETZE: So Mr Van der Schyff was not there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, he wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: To a question put by Mr Dreyer, you said the purpose of, or perhaps just to make sure that that is in fact your evidence, I shouldn't tell you what you said, you haven't forgotten what you said a few minutes ago, but I want it to come from you, what was the purpose of the roadblock?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: According to me, it was the start of the revolution, to see if we can get firearms and... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: To kill people?   To kill people at the roadblock?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's not what I'm asking.   I'm talking about the purpose of the roadblock.   You said it was to look for arms... (intervention).

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: For arms.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said to kill people.   Now I want to know from you whether you are now saying that the purpose of the roadblock was to look for arms and to kill people.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, the people were killed.   To look for firearms... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You can answer in Afrikaans, by the way.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Okay, dankie.   The roadblock that we held was, well why did we search the vehicles, that is how I saw it from the position where I was, the vehicles were searched, they looked for weapons or firearms, and that was definitely the case, that was the purpose of the roadblock.   The people were questioned and people were killed at the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: But let me put my question again this way, I put it...
TAPE TURNED OVER - WORDS LOST

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I'm trying to tell you from a political viewpoint.   At that stage I was politically involved and so forth.   What happened there was politically justified.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's how you see it.   You see, at some point Mr Knoetze put it to you, and something you agreed with, he put it to you that, just like his client, just as in the case of his client, Mr Van der Schyff, the purpose of going there was not to go and kill, and you said yes?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I didn't receive an order, an instruction, to kill on the scene.   I was on my way back to my car when the shooting took place.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you... (intervention).

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I got... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...when you, Mr Visser, when you went to go and put up the roadblock, you did not expect that people were going to be killed?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, but I foreseen the fact that people can be killed in a process like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, you've just told the committee that the roadblock itself, you did not receive there the order to kill people, but at the roadhouse, the cafe, how did you understand the instruction from Mr Klopper, what was... (intervention).

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That people will die.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.   Thank you, you can stand down.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PRINSLOO: The following applicant, Mr Diedericks.

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: (confirms to speak truth)

MR PRINSLOO: On page 127 up till page 143, I would like to make an amendment on page 131, seven lines from the bottom of the paragraph, where it reads
"At the moment we got the instruction to set up a roadblock and we got this from Martin's house",
just after "ons het" must be put in "Deon Martin's house".  Page 131, it's paragraph 3, almost the seventh line from the bottom, just after "real McCoy", it reads "ons het", it must be inserted there, "we got this instruction at Deon Martin's house", "ons het die opdrag by Martin se huis ontvang".   May I continue, Mr Chairperson?   Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Diedericks, is it correct that, together with the other applicants, you were arrested, that you were charged with murder and other charges, and that you appeared before the judge in court, is that correct that you were, had a prison sentence, that is for ten years, that was later changed?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Diedericks, you joined the AWB in the middle of '93?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you join this movement?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I joined because I believed in the ideology and that they wanted a homeland for the "boerevolk", like what the blacks had at that stage, and that they were able to realise that.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you, did you agree with that the ANC could take over the country?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, definitely not.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you believe that, by means of the AWB, you would be able to resist it?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes, definitely.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you attend any meetings of the AWB?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes, I did attend a few.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Diedericks, I would like to refer you to, or take you back to the 12th of December of 1993.   On the 12th December, or on that night, you were called up to go to Uncle Harry's road cafe?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Who called you?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Deon Martin's wife phoned me, and because I was alone, I drove to Deon's house, where she would look at the children, or look after the children.

MR PRINSLOO: So you left your children there are Deon Martin's house?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And then you went to the road cafe?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: That's correct, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: At the roadhouse, we already heard the evidence that you were brought together and you were addressed by Commandant Kloppers?