Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The one I took from Bonny, he had hidden it here as he is pointing, in front of his pants.

MS THABETHE: Do you remember in your evidence you said that you asked Ernest Ngcobo whether he belonged to the ANC or IFP and he said he belonged to the ANC?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I do remember.

MS THABETHE: My question to you is why was he beaten if he belonged to the ANC, you also belonged to the ANC?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: My problem was that they were attacking and we realised that he was just saying that because they were attacking and he realised that we caught them and we asked them simple questions which one will know if one is an ANC member.

MS THABETHE: Where had they attacked?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Who?

MS THABETHE: Ernest Ngcobo?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They came to attack there, to attack me.

CHAIRPERSON: If you did not believe anything that Ernest Ngcobo said about his political affiliations, what was the import of even putting the question to any of them, knowing that they will say anything to save their skin?  What purpose were you seeking to serve in having to put questions of political affiliation to people that you knew, they will say anything?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I never took a decision on my own, we took decisions as a group.  If the group decided that we were going to do this, that is what we will go.  The organisation and the community decided that we should take them to the "People's Court" and ask them questions so that we found out whether the people came really to attack or they just came because of the vacation or the December vacation.

CHAIRPERSON: You as the leader of the structure at Manyaseni, did you not have any kind of influence with regard to the mood and how things were being conducted by the group on that particular day?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, as a leader, I will say something, but to a certain extent like for instance, I did say that the females shouldn't be sjamboked like the males, because they didn't do so much.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying the females shouldn't be sjamboked equally like males, because they hadn't done much?  What have they done if there was anything at all that they had done?  Had they done anything?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They were not respecting the group, even the way they were talking to the group, they were not respecting the group.  I think that is the reason why the group ended up sjamboking them.  Because in that area, even drinking alcohol as a female or swearing at someone, or going out with two men, was a crime in that area.  As a female, you do not talk to males, the way they talked to this group and this is why the group decided that they should be sjamboked.  That is why I had to ask for them to be sjamboked less than the males.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me get clarity without belabouring this point, the reason why you took a decision to punish the women was because of their behaviour during the questioning of the people who were from outside Manyaseni?  Would I be correct in summarising your evidence in that fashion?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In that case, it had nothing to do with politics?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I personally perceived this as a political act because if they didn't behave the way they did, they were not going to be sjamboked.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are talking now about women, the reason why you punished them was because of their moral behaviour, because women are supposed to behave in a particular fashion and they didn't conform to the expected behaviour of women, it wasn't because of their political activism?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, but the people who were involved, more especially the decision makers, decided that females shouldn't behave the way they did.  They way they were speaking to the group, the group decided that it was unacceptable for them, for the females to speak to them that way, so they decided that they were a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's not dilly-dally on this point, it is a very simple issue.  The punishment you meted out on those women, was because of their behaviour, not because of the fact that they had done anything politically to you?  It was not because of their political activities, but it was because of their behaviour during your questioning of the people who were coming from Umlazi?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, coming to the attack on Dudu Ngcobo, my instructions are that when you came down to look for Dudu Ngcobo, you with other people, went into the house of Amos Cele and you only found Zodwa Cele in the house.  What is your comment to that, your response to that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I did not quite get that.

MS THABETHE: When you went into the house, there was only Zodwa Cele in the house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When we were looking for Dudu?

MS THABETHE: Yes?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I cannot remember correctly.

MS THABETHE: Further that you questioned her about the whereabouts of Dudu and you also pressed a bushknife and you assaulted her, what is your response to that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I have no knowledge thereof.  What I do remember is that the only reason we went to fetch her is because she was the only person absent.

MS THABETHE: Maybe I have confused you, I am not talking about the incident where you went to fetch Dudu from the house and you took her up to the mountain, I am not talking about that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have not been clear yourself, Ms Thabethe, when you put questions.  The first question that you put to him, won't you just make it quite clear that you are now talking about the incident after Dudu had been sjamboked and had been allowed to leave and that he thereafter, later after having allowed her to leave, went inside, that he, himself, went inside the house looking for Dudu and only found Zodwa Cele in the house.

MS THABETHE: I am indebted to you Madam Chair.  That is the question, I don't know whether you want me to repeat it?

CHAIRPERSON: You understood how it was rephrased that question, after you had administered the 200 lashes on Dudu Ngcobo and had allowed her to go back and had instructed her to leave the area, you later went inside Amos Cele's house whereat you found a lady by the name of Zodwa Cele.  You then questioned Zodwa Cele and asked about the whereabouts of Dudu Ngcobo.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you further assaulted her in the process of questioning her about the whereabouts of Dudu Ngcobo?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Further my instructions Mr Cele, are that you proceeded to run after Dudu and you not only killed her, you not only beat her or stoned her, but you also used bushknives to kill her.  What is your response to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean he used a bushknife?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, that did not take place.

MS THABETHE: Are you saying it never happened or are you saying you never bushed her, but she was bushed by somebody else?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying the evidence will show that Mr Cele stabbed Dudu Ngcobo with a bushknife, that is the evidence you will lead?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That I stabbed her?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, using a bushknife?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, never used a bushknife, nobody used a bushknife.

MS THABETHE: My other question to you Mr Cele is exactly on what grounds was a decision to kill Dudu Ngcobo, reached?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The decision was not taken merely specifically about Dudu, but with regards to everyone who had come.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you come again for my sake, Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: On what grounds was a decision reached to kill Dudu Ngcobo?