Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes, Mrs Dlamini went to complain that at Sangoma's - I can't quite remember whether it's a Sangoma or a Zionist that the UDF members come, but this person went to complain at the central committee member and also the death of these families actually attacked or hurt this Sangoma and Zekele then sent me and this lady came.  I wasn't there and when I arrived at home I discovered that, I was told that a certain auntie from Dlamini's arrived here.  I can't quite remember whether it was the following day or the very same day, she came and she found me and asked me if I did speak to Zekele and I asked her what to say, say what and then she said "you must go there to that house and kill the father of that house because he is the one who let my family to be killed" and then I denied that and I told her that lady for the first time I hear this and I'm not to take instructions from you.  I then went to Las Vegas and by then the phone was working and I phoned Zekele and Zekele said yes it is me who said you should go there and then I said well, Zekele I wanted to get the instruction directly from you.  Then when I'm on my way there and then Kholisi, the one that I referred as Boka Boka heard a shotgun, others were carrying knives and petrol bombs.  On that day it was the night vigil for Toto and I went out with Mrs Dlamini and she pointed the house.  As I'm sitting here, that house that she pointed it's on the right.  She pointed that house and then I went inside the very same night of the night of the vigil.  Then I went in the house and then I took my boys and then we went outside.  We prepared the petrol bombs and thereafter we went to this house.  When we arrived there I knocked.  There was no answer, there was no response and we throw the petrol bombs through the windows.  Then this father had the hose pipe.  When I was busy throwing the petrol bomb, this father is actually setting them off with that hose and then we saw this house as the house that is not burned and Ngovele kicked that door and then the door is now opened and he kicked that door.  When he's kicking it at the very same time this father was actually deciding to run away.  The staircases are just facing down from here a distance towards the - distance is from here to that Kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be about 80 to 100 paces, say about 80 paces away.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: And then we ran after him.  The fences at Hammarsdale were actually shot and then he hit it by his chest and then the fence went down and then by then Kholisi had already took out his pump gun and then he shot and then he fell.  When we arrived there we then stabbed him.  Thereafter Kholisi again shot him with the last bullet, that's how he died and then we left and then I started at four at Zekele and then the neighbours said, the neighbours there at 3 said that the people who did this are the people who are from the night vigil but no one was arrested and that's how that was the end of the story.

MR WILLS: Do you know the name of this person who was killed?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: If I'm not mistaken, I can't quite remember whether I did a mistake whether this person was a Zionist or was a Sangoma, I can't quite remember.   That is why here down I wrote Sangoma, but it was a person who was using them - holy water.

MR WILLS: Yes, my question was do you recall the name.  From your answer obviously you don't know the name of this person who was killed, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I don't even know his surname, I don't even know how he looks like, I only know him when we were going to kill him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You said in your affidavit that a person who you killed was using holy water?  Is that what you said in your affidavit?  Are you saying the person was using holy water because here in the English version that is how it is written, how it was interpreted?  Is it in your affidavit that the person was saying that this person was using holy water? Is it a Sangoma?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: What I'm explaining is that when we're throwing petrol bombs, this guy was using a hose, the hose pipe.  I can't remember whether it's the wife who was actually spilling water all over, yes that's what I mean.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I don't know whether you do understand me.  In your affidavit on the English, or okay, what you've just said now that we're receiving here, the people who are interpreting are saying that you will say you can't quite remember whether this person was using holy water, is that what is coming from your mouth?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Using this water where?

INTERPRETER: I think there's a great gap of communication here, he can't quite understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Please calm down.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If you could please assist us Mr Ngubane?

CHAIRPERSON: Please, please be quiet, we want to continue with the hearing.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  As far as I could follow the evidence in Zulu, he said that he was not sure what the nature of the occupation of that man was, whether he was a Sangoma which could be a witchdoctor or a traditional healer, or he was a man who belonged to the Zionist Church who was using spiritual water to heal people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's what I wanted to establish, thank you very much.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Thank you.

MR WILLS: May I continue?  Thank you.
	Mr Hlongwane, those are the incidents that you can recall that you are involved in prior to you being recruited and trained as a special constable in the South African Police Service, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now we know that this training occurred in 1988 so obviously these incidents occurred sometime between 1985 and the beginning of 1988, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now we've heard evidence and I'm going to go through this quite quickly, we've heard evidence from Mr Khumalo regarding the training of special constables in Koeberg.  I think that all that needs to be said in this regard is that you were also trained in this regard, not so?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you were selected because of your loyalty to the IFP and you were sent to Koeberg and trained as a special constable, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And it was at this stage because you were offered this job that you left your permanent employment at Glacier Bearings, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you mention on page 142 of your affidavit the persons who you can recall who were also present at this training?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: I think for the benefit of the members of the public who don't have affidavits can you just read those names out for us into the record, that's at paragraph 25, page 142.  Can you just read those names out for us?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Victor Mia from Pietermaritzburg, Vosi Mbeje whose nickname was Tegwani, Skidi - I do not know his surname, Spobengo, Stella Nglovu, Nbisibe Sithula from Umlazi, Themba Kasibe, Zonde Shibango, Maseka Intwalo, Sosha who gave evidence yesterday, Babagneni and others, but these are people I still remember.

MR WILLS: Yes now there's two aspects that I want to concentrate on about this training.  The first is what you refer to in paragraph 26 and that is that at the stage when you went for this training you advised the South African Police at that stage that you had a case that was pending against you.  In fact you said you had a court date the day after you left, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And what was done about this?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: We heard shots, some boys at Guguletu ...[intervention]

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, what I'm referring to - when you told the police that this was in fact the case did this prevent you from being trained?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No they said they would attend to the case when I returned.