Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

CHAIRPERSON: No, just listen now.  You were familiar with some of those killed and of those with whom you were familiar, you positively state that none of them of whom you knew or were familiar with, were involved in any military operations.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes, and I mentioned the three names to you earlier.  I mentioned specifically Mike Hamlyn, Thami Mnyele and Ahmed Geer.

MR VISSER: Now the point's a simple one.  If you didn't know about other people being members of MK at the time, isn't it possible that they could have been members and you didn't know about it?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about those three?

MR VISSER: Yes.  It's a simple proposition.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Those other people were not people that I was familiar with.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he's talking about the three you were familiar with.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No, but I'm saying he's drawing - he's saying to me that I knew Thabang Makwetla.

CHAIRPERSON: No he's not saying ...(intervention)

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No, I'm saying that he's saying that I knew other people who were MK members.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me take it easier and cut things short.  Thami, you knew, you were familiar with him.  In your statement and in your evidence now you say that in no ways you can positively state that he was not involved in military operations.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It's been put to you like you didn't know about the MK affiliations of other people, is it not possible that Thami was in fact a member of MK but withheld that information from you?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: And I'm saying that I was not familiar with those other people in the same way that I was familiar with Thami ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore because ...(intervention)

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I did not spend days and days with those other people.  I made specific mention of Thabang Makwetla because I met him once and then I learned in 1989 that he was an MK member.  When I met him the first time in 1985 and I spent ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I take the point, Mr Abrahamse.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, does that ...?

MR VISSER: No, I took the answer Chairperson.  Did you - was Thami Mnyele married to a lady by the name of Rhona Segale or was he living with her?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I don't know her surname, but her name was Rhona.

MR VISSER: Did you know whether she was at all involved with any MK activities?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I do not know what Rhona was involved in, or what she was not involved in.

MR VISSER: She was never - was that never something that you discussed with Mr Mnyele?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No.

MR VISSER: Did you go and visit at the house - were they living together, Rhona and Thami Mnyele?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I learned after the raid that they were living together because Rhona asked me to go and help her collect her things from the house.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Was that the first time that you went to that house?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes.

MR VISSER: So you never went to visit Mr Mnyele, you saw him elsewhere?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes.

MR VISSER: When you were busy with cultural things?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Sometimes socially as well.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I want to put it to you.  It doesn't sound like you were such a close friend of Mr Mnyele if you never even visited him at home.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: That's not really a question.  You are putting something to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Then what do you say about it?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I would say that is wrong and I can substantiate on that.  Am I allowed to substantiate?

CHAIRPERSON: You've already said you were familiar and you dealt with ...(indistinct - background noise)  Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, I'm just looking at my notes.  Can I just make one point absolutely clear from your evidence?  Is it correct that you said that
"Mike and myself (that's yourself) were officially members of the ANC when we were in Botswana."
That was your evidence, or wasn't it?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Tell me Mr Abrahamse, why did you believe were you a target, was it because you were a member of the ANC in Botswana?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he doesn't know why?

MR VISSER: I know.  I'm asking him now.  Wasn't it because you knew you were an ANC member and that ANC members were targets of the South African regime?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I'm sorry, but I really cannot speculate on why the then South African Government should have thought I was a target or not.  It really is way beyond me.  I cannot speculate on that.  In fact I think you should be asking your clients that.
(LOTS OF CLAPPING IN THE BACKGROUND)

MR VISSER: Yes, well I'm not going to respond to that.  Can you - I just want to tell you what the information is that we have on Mr Thami Mnyele.  He was well-known by the applicant Pretorius and he says he fled from Thembisa in 1979.  Do you know anything about that?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No.

MR VISSER: He was officially registered as a refugee in Botswana, do you know anything about that?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No.

MR VISSER: That there were various reports about him from various divisions of the Security Branch of the Police in regard to his involvement with MK and the ANC.  You wouldn't know about that?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Again I think you should refer that to your clients.

MR VISSER: I'm putting to you what the applicants are saying, Mr Abrahamse.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: They can say what they want to.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any comment about that?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: None whatsoever, Mr Chair.  I don't understand why these questions are being asked of me.  I am not applying for amnesty.  I am opposing an amnesty application.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Abrahamse okay, we've heard that.

MR VISSER: Yes, do you know whether Mr Mnyele was involved in SACTU activities?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No, I have no knowledge of that.

MR VISSER: The evidence was that his wife Rhona was the primary suspect of the Security Intelligence Branch of the Security Branch of Soweto and I want to tell you what the information was about her, that she gave training in the use of hand grenades to so-called suicide squads.  Do you know anything about that?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No, I know nothing about that.

MR VISSER: And that she had various agents operating under her, whom she also supplied with arms and ammunition.  Do you know anything about that?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No, I know nothing about that.

MR VISSER: Can you deny that that is so?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I'm sorry, I'm sorry Mr Chair ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He just said that he didn't know about it.

MR VISSER: Yes.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's the point of him denying it?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: And Mr Chair, the question is further that he is telling me what was the information of the Soweto Security Branch.  I had nothing to do with the Soweto Security Branch, never have had and never will have, so I don't understand where this man is coming from.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure, we don't know, life has changed, the point of the matter is that Mr Visser is entitled to put his case to you and you're entitled to deal with his propositions.  Let us deal with it on that basis.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I'm dealing with it Mr Chair by saying that I know nothing about the Soweto Security Branch,

CHAIRPERSON: Fine.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: their information, their sources of information, how they processed their information and what they did with their information.

MR VISSER: Just in case this question has not been asked before, Mr Thami Mnyele, was he a member of the ANC as far as you're concerned, when he was in Botswana?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: As far as I'm concerned, Thami was a member of the ANC in the same way in which Mike Hamlyn and myself were members of the ANC.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: I don't have any questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS