Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to begin?

MR PRETORIUS: We are, Honourable Chairman and Honourable Members of the Committee.   The next witness will be Mrs Langa.

CHAIRPERSON: What are her other names please?

MR PRETORIUS: I'll give her full names in just a short while, Honourable Chairman.   Her first name is Lembede.   Sorry, her surname as it stands here is Lembede-Langa.   Her first names are Khathazile Saraphina.   She will be testifying in Zulu, Honourable Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mrs Lembede, are you prepared to take the Oath?   Could you please give us your full names for the record?   Is your full names Khathazile Saraphina?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: That is correct.

KHATHAZILE SARAPHINA LEMBEDE-LANGA: (sworn states)

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr Pretorius.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you member of the Committee.   Just before I proceed Mr Chairman, I may just place it on record that my learned friends for the ANC have assisted us to that extent that they accept that Mr Sibula Petros Langa was killed there on the corner of King George and De Villiers Streets and, that therefore, it's not necessary for me to show this witness photographs, which will assist us to a large extent.   I am indebted to them for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   The admission was made for the purposes of this hearing.

MR PRETORIUS: I accept that as well Mr Chairman.   Mrs Langa, Mr Sibula Petros Langa, did you know him and what was your relationship with him?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: He was my son.

MR PRETORIUS: When was he born?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: During 1994 he was 28 years old, that is the year on which he died.

MR PRETORIUS: Was he married?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: No he wasn't.

MR PRETORIUS: Did he have any children?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: No he had none.

MR PRETORIUS: Are you married?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes I am.

MR PRETORIUS: For record purposes, how old are you now?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: I was born during 1933.

MR PRETORIUS: And your husband?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: He is late.

MR PRETORIUS: Your son, Mr Langa, he was resident in Johannesburg.   Is that correct?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes, he was working here.

MR PRETORIUS: As what did he work?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: He was doing piece jobs.   He didn't have any stable job at that moment.

MR PRETORIUS: Who supported you?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: My son.

MR PRETORIUS: And now, who is supporting you?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: I'm supporting myself as well as my daughter and my grand-daughter.

MR PRETORIUS: Is the situation in regard to your family changed as regard of the death of your son?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes, that is correct, because he was the bread-winner.

MR PRETORIUS: Now Mrs Langa you heard the guards testify here, the Applicants in this Application for Amnesty.   Are you prepared to forgive them for the death of your son?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: No, I'm not prepared.

MR PRETORIUS: I've got no further questions to this witness, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions you wish to put to her?

MR DORFLING: I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Just one or two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that the only son that you had, Mrs Langa?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were asked whether you are prepared to forgive the guards.  Is that because you were told or you believe that they had no reason whatsoever to shoot, which led to the death of your son?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: I do not know anything, but I was just told that my son had died.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you hear the guards say that they wanted to protect their own lives, the lives of their leaders and the property which they were appointed to guard.   Did you hear them say that?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Could you please repeat your question?  I did not hear it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you hear the guards say that they feared for their own lives and the lives of their leaders, and the property which they were appointed to guard.   Did you hear their evidence?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: Yes, I did hear but I don't know what the significance of that testimony is.

GEORGE BIZOS: If, in fact, they were forced to do that because of what a large group of marchers, in which your son was involved;  if that is true, why would you not be in a position to forgive them?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: I cannot comment.   I do not know anything about that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.   I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Were do you live?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: In Singa.   I come from Singa.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you support yourself and you said as well as your daughter and grand-daughter.   That is not clear to me.

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: I plough or I farm the fields, and I am selling firewood so that I can be able to make ends meet.

CHAIRPERSON: And what does your daughter do?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: She is not yet employed.  She has a small baby.

CHAIRPERSON: How many other children do you have?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: It was my son, the late, as well as the daughter.   I had only two children.   Now I have one only, so there is only three members of the family.

CHAIRPERSON: How many children did your son have?

MRS LEMBEDE-LANGA: He did not have any children.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR PRETORIUS: None thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you very much.   You may go now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR P A VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman, I yesterday appeared in respect of one of the objectors, Mrs Ntombela.   Before I proceed with any of the other objectors, in order to expedite the proceedings, there is one aspect I want to clarify with the Committee, especially in the light of certain statements that were made yesterday, in order to clarify my own position.
	Firstly, in respect of Mr Ntombela, my colleague Mr Berger, stated to you that Mr Ntombela was probably shot with an AK-47 from a flat above Nandos, and secondly, refer you to bundle `B' page 185 of bundle `B', in respect of shots 17 and 18, that Mr Ntombela could have been shot from that AK-47.
	And then secondly, Mr Bizos stated in the examination of the mother, he had put it to her that this deceased was not shot and killed by any of the ANC guards.  And then thirdly, in respect of the approach of Mrs Moraka, on behalf of the ANC, that there was no evidence that Mr Chonco was shot by the ANC, and in response to a direct question to Mr Simelane, that is not applying for Amnesty in respect of Chonco.
	  I just want to clarify that I understand the present position to be, and I accepted that there is no Application in respect of any guard, who had fired a shot and who had killed Mr Ntombela.  In other words, I accepted that there is an Application for Amnesty for any of the Applicants, which caused the death of Mr Veli Tombela and, if that is the position, I do not intend calling any further witnesses in respect of that deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we clear that up?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman.   If that is lack of clarity as to whose bullet killed Mr Ntombela, and if it is not conclusive that it came from the place above or next to Nandos, we would persist in the application because the guards do not know whom they shot.   So, we will persist in the Application and my learned friend can advise himself as to what further evidence, if any, he wants to lead in that regard.
	Mr Chonco is on a different basis because we contend that the evidence clearly shows that he was not shot with a shotgun.   So that is the distinguishing feature.   Thank you Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In that case, Mr Bizos, none of your clients are seeking to apply for Amnesty in respect of Mr Chonco's death?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tipp?