Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

MS THABETHE: He wasn't aware of it and he wasn't aware that his legal representative has withdrawn.   As a result, he heard of that yesterday and he says in the meantime he has contacted a legal representative to act on his behalf, but whoever he has called doesn't have the relevant documentation and that person hasn't consulted with him yet.
So we might have to postpone this one as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Let him come in.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether Mr Mbuyazi would be represented?

MS THABETHE: As far as I know, or as far as I am aware, he is not.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you Mr Msisi Hlophe?

ANSWER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You have made an application to the Amnesty Committee.

ANSWER: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you seen this letter that has been written?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware of that letter or its contents?

ANSWER: Yes, I read it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that your advocate, Mr Mongezi Shongweni, has indicated that you do not propose to proceed with your application?

ANSWER: Yes, I did hear that, but I want to say to this
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CHAIRMAN	186	R HLOPHE
Commission I have no knowledge thereof, but there was some disagreement between me and the advocate so that is what resulted in the whole confusion because I wanted to be given safety at the prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you now got somebody else to represent you, another lawyer?

ANSWER: No, I do not have.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you not consulted another lawyer?

ANSWER: No, I haven't seen another attorney, besides the fact that I spoke to a certain attorney and said that maybe we have some minor disagreement, but he said to me he would come back to me although I did explain that I am supposed to appear today.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you say there was an attorney that you phoned yesterday or today so that he could represent you?

ANSWER: No, I did not say that.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position today, do you wish to proceed with your application in the absence or without the assistance of an attorney?

ANSWER: I wouldn't be able to represent myself.  I think I do need a legal representative and I would appreciate it if Mongezi could represent me because he is the one who knows a lot with regard to this matter and if I take another attorney I would have to start afresh.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn this matter as well.   From what you tell us there might have been some misunderstanding between you and Mr Shongweni and I have no doubt that you will take all the necessary steps to clear whatever differences there are or misunderstandings you have with him.

ANSWER: Yes, I do understand that.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
187

CHAIRPERSON: It means that your application cannot be heard now and it will have to be postponed to another day.  Can you tell us whether you will be taking the necessary steps to ensure that you will be legally represented?

ANSWER: Yes, I will make an effort to contact him and discuss it with him.

CHAIRPERSON: We cannot tell you at this stage to what date your case is postponed.  But every effort will be made to try and hear it as soon as possible.  Do you understand that?

ANSWER: Yes, I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: ... will be served on you and copies of relevant documents will be made available to you to enable you and your attorney to be prepared for your case.

ANSWER: I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Your case is then adjourned to a date to be arranged.

ANSWER: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there people involved or who were interested, victims, relatives and so on, in connection with Mr Hlophe?

MS THABETHE: Yes, there are.

CHAIRPERSON: Will they be notified of the reasons why this application ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 1B) ... of the date when Mr Hlophe's application will be heard.

MS THABETHE: I will arrange that they explain to them why Mr Hlophe cannot continue today and I will get their addresses.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you publicly just express the difficulties and any inconvenience that has been caused to them.

MS THABETHE: I would like to speak to the relatives with regard to Hlophe's matter.  We sincerely apologise for the
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MS THABETHE	188	ADDRESS
inconvenience of not being able to hear Mr Hlophe's case because Hlophe's attorney wrote us a letter to say that he will  not be able to represent Hlophe today and he further stated that Hlophe said he will not be able to appear before the Commission, as you have already heard Hlophe speaking.  There was some misunderstanding between himself and his attorney and therefore I apologise to members of the family of the victims.  This was beyond our control and it was unforeseeable. 
	We have decided that we are going to postpone this matter and we shall notify you in due course as to the date of the next hearing.  I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will adjourn now until 09:30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS TO 13.2.1997 AT 09:30
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189
AMNESTY COMMITTEE HEARINGS - HELD AT PIETERMARITZBURG
ON 13 FEBRUARY 1997

MS THABETHE: Members of the Committee, today we are dealing with applicant Henry M Khanyile.  He is applying for amnesty for murder around occurrences where three people were killed and four injured.
	For the record I want to mention that the victims are not here and there is no way that we can find out if they are on their way or not.  But one thing for sure they do know that they are supposed to be here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Were notices served on them?

MS THABETHE: Notices were served on them.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are satisfied that those notices have reached them?

MS THABETHE: I am satisfied that they were served.

ADV DE JAGER: Have you got the returns of service.

MS THABETHE: I have the reports from the investigators in Durban.  I will be collecting that report, but I did read it on Friday to make sure that everything was done.

JUDGE WILSON: Did they saw the victims or they merely posted notices to them?

MS THABETHE: They actually went to the place where the victims are and they saw them.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they being represented this morning?

MS THABETHE: I am not aware that they are represented.

CHAIRPERSON: And the applicants are being represented are they?

MS THABETHE: The applicant is being represented by Mr Kuboni.
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190

MR KUBONI: Honourable members of the Committee, for the record my initials are W S Kuboni.

UNKNOWN: s s

MR KUBONI: Mr Khanyile, is it correct that before you got arrested you were staying at Umlazi?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR KUBONI: And it is also correct that your home is at Bamshela next to  (indistinct)?

UNKNOWN: That is true.

MR KUBONI: Is it also correct that you are a member of the African National Congress?

UNKNOWN: That is true.

MR KUBONI: Is it correct that in the area, that is Bamshela area, there are also other political parties that are there?

UNKNOWN: That's true.

MR KUBONI: Can you name those political parties that are there?

UNKNOWN: It is IFP and ANC.

MR KUBONI: How can you describe the relationship there between the ANC and the IFP?

UNKNOWN: There was a conflict.  The organisations didn't see eye to eye and there were fights that broke out.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that.

UNKNOWN: There was conflict between the ANC and the IFP and there were fights that broke out.

MR KUBONI: Can you just tell this Committee about the conflict that was going on?