Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: We placed them on the firewood, we first put down a layer of firewood and then we put the corpses on top of the firewood.

MR BOOYENS: Then you poured diesel over them, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you purchase this along the way?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was the fire then lit with the purpose of burning the corpses?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did it burn for approximately six hours as you state there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And the next morning Captain du Plessis and Mr Niewoudt collected the remains by raking this together, Niewoudt departed then with this and said that he'd thrown them in the Fish River, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, all of that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: The same evening the two deceased vehicle was left near a border post in Lesotho, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: On the 11th of June 1990, did you make a statement before the Harmse Commission?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was it a false statement?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it was false.

MR BOOYENS: Why was the statement false?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: To protect myself?

MR BOOYENS: You did not want to tell the truth?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And was this a direct consequence of your actions of killing the two deceased?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: If we can now turn to the political background which led to the commission of this crime and formed the basis for your action.  At this stage you had served in the security police for quite some time, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes for many years, yes.

MR BOOYENS: And were you aware of the eventual goal of the freedom organisations like the ANC, the SACP etc., what was their purpose?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was to bring the Government at the time to a fall and to establish an ANC/SACP Government.

MR BOOYENS: In those days Mr P W Botha was President and did he use the phrase of a "total onslaught"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you also - from the years that you were serving in the security branch, experience continuous propaganda in the press, on television, on the radio, coming from National Party politicians?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: If one had to summarise, what was the nature of the propaganda specifically as far as the freedom struggle was concerned?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That the freedom struggle had to be prevented at all costs, that all means had to be used to combat the "total onslaught" and to keep the Government ruling.

MR BOOYENS: So in other words, the perception of a total resistance against a "total onslaught"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Exactly.

MR BOOYENS: That is what the politicians said from public platforms?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: This is also what we read in the press at the time?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And as far as you yourselves were concerned - information that was passed on to you from security head office, police head office etc., was this the same message?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did you also have insight into banned publications which had been confiscated from these movements?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did that also set out how to topple the Government?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So did you believe or was there any doubt in your mind that the SACP/ANC alliance had anything else in mind than to take over the Government of the country?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, there was nothing else.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, did you from that which you yourself experienced and saw, believe this propaganda?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Let us then return to your position as a security policeman.  Before you came to Port Elizabeth, were you stationed in the Eastern Transvaal?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And there, there were inter alia allegations that Swaziland had been used as an infiltration route?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, definitely.

MR BOOYENS: What kind of instructions were you receiving at that stage as to your actions?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: We had to establish an information network in Swaziland to try and monitor these people and to gain information regarding when these trained people would enter the country.

MR BOOYENS: And did you also - as far as these so-called safe houses in Swaziland were concerned, did you also have to gain information in this regard?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we had to, we had to take photographs where possible of these safe houses.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  These things happened as far back as the '70's?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What was the nature of the pressure which even at that stage - this was long before you came to the Eastern Cape, was exercised on you as a security police person from the top, from police headquarters and from your regional command etc?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well the pressure that was exerted was for results, drastic actions, more concentrated actions.

MR BOOYENS: We are still referring to the Eastern Transvaal situation, was there - from the side of the people in Pretoria and politicians etc., were they satisfied or were they demanding better results?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well they were continually requiring and demanding better results because we couldn't adequately prevent the trained cadres, the MK's from entering for deeds of terror.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, then you were transferred to the Eastern Cape, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: In the Eastern Cape, how would you summarise the  situation politically when you came here?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I would describe the situation - I would almost say, as chaotic, unstable.

MR BOOYENS: You were at the time the second in command of the section, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I wasn't.

MR BOOYENS: You weren't?  You were a Lieutenant Colonel?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And because of the rank that you had, you only supervised the situation?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have insight to correspondence from headquarters?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I had.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have insight into the security actions that were taken locally?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I did.

MR BOOYENS: Were there regular conferences that were held?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Where an overview was given of the situation and steps discussed?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What was the type of insistence that was coming from Government side and that was passed on to you, what did they want?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That the situation in the Eastern Cape had to be stabilised and normalised.

MR BOOYENS: Did you also have an involvement upon occasions in sittings of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think we will take a short adjournment so you can see to this lady.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION