Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: I would say that the reason, what they'd aimed at, was to kill me.  The reason why I'm saying that is the, firstly, the first car saw me and ignored me.  The second car, the person inside the second car said I should drop down my weapon.  He started shooting first and I fell down and shot back.  I think if I did not fall he would have killed me.

MR SHANE: Why were the police regarded as enemies?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: In attempting to answer you, the police were harassing the community to an extent that two of my colleagues that was in my company one time ago, were apprehended by the police even after they were arrested by the police they were killed by the same police, in hospital.  So there was corruption that was rife committed by the police.

MR SHANE: When you committed the act for which you were convicted, it was your intention to murder the white policeman, and nothing else.  Is that correct?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: That led to my conviction?  Please repeat that question.  I'm lost.

MR SHANE: When you shot at the vehicle with the six white policemen ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you shoot at the kombi?

MR SHANE: Why did you shoot, what was the reason for you shooting at the kombi with the six white policemen?  What was the reason?

CHAIRPERSON: Were the occupants of the kombi policemen?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Yes the occupants were policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you shoot at that kombi?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: What I knew very well was that once they arrest me it will be either they are killing me or taking me to the hostel, one of the two.

MR SHANE: So why did you kill them, sorry why did you shoot at them?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: I was trying to run away from such or avoid being arrested by them.  I just hated to see myself in their hands because they were going to take me to the hostel or do something to me.

MR SHANE: Now, what did you think you would achieve by shooting at them?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: What was in, what occupied my mind was that, if the police would die in that car I would gain the firearms and ammunition in the car, and take that to the community.

MR SHANE: So, to cut a long story short you wanted to kill them.  Is that right?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: I wanted to kill them, yes.

MR SHANE: That's, were you alone, or who accompanied you?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: I was alone.

MR SHANE: That is evidence, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, can you just clarify one point for me?  What happened to the first car?  On what you've just told us.

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: The first car, that was the one that approached in the passage, and I was unaware about the car.  It was a private car that was being driven by this boers.  They were not the residents of Tokoza obviously, because the situation that prevailed at the time was violently and the police that were driving around the neighbourhood or the area, they will use police vehicles, Caspirs for instance, not private cars.

ADV GCABASHE: What happened to that car?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: It went up straight towards the office road.  What I think is that those were people who were going to the office to solve their problems, because even the second car had a police in it and an ordinary man in it.  I never saw thought that there will be police, or the occupants of the car were the police or what, but I realised that after the second car emerged, that that could have been possible it was the police car.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman I don't want to cause a further disturbance here, but according to the record and according to the applicant's own application, there seems to be a pending appeal.  This was now after the applicant was convicted in the regional Court in Germiston.  I don't know why that record could not be traced, but as far as I'm con - as far as I know those appeals are being dealt with by the Attorney General, which office is just next door here.  And I think it's in the interests of not only the, of the appellant but also probably the interest of justice, that record must be placed before you.  I've asked our police officers and witness protectors whose here now, because we have the full details and the numbers of the appeal record, and I would ask permission for that applicant to stand down.
	Maybe we can start the next one while I'm waiting for the original record.  Two copies will be made before say one o'clock, and be placed before you, if that can be allowed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) going to use that record as a basis for cross-examination.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman probably but, probably or possibly, but I think it's, that information will clearly be relevant to this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think it's going to take to get those records?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman it'll take me probably half an hour, quarter of an hour to get the information.  By then I will definitely know the position and which sections will be relevant.  The only difficulty will be it will probably be in Afrikaans, but I'm not planning to use the whole record, probably just the summary of, because in the record we'll find the summary of the essential facts of indictment, and probably the summary of the sentence.  I think those sections can be relevant.

MR SHANE: May I reply Mr Chairman?  It's quite clearly relevant, and I enquired from Sally Sealy about obtaining this when I first took instructions.  I was informed that they tried to obtain these.  There are no dockets.  I was told there are no records, nothing, so if my, Mr Steenkamp thinks he can get it, I think he's being very optimistic by saying he's going to get it today.  With respect sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp I'm going to take a tea adjournment now.  Come report to us within the next 15 to 20 minutes.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman I undertake to not waste your time.  It'll take me about 15 minutes to 10 minutes, 10 to 15 minutes, so maybe we'll take the tea adjournment now.  Thank you sir.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: (s.u.o.)

MR SHANE: ...(inaudible) the Commissioners what you told the Court, was that the truth or not?  What you said in your trial.

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: All that I said in the Court of law was blatant lies.

MR SHANE: So you lied in Court.

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: Very true.

MR SHANE: And what you told the learned Commissioners this morning, is that the truth?

JIMMY NKOSINATHI MAKHONDO: What I said to this Commission is the truth.

MR SHANE: Thank you sir, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED