Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: On Saturdays and I used to do that only half a day for two hours a day because she was just staying in a three-roomed house.

ADV DE JAGER: But when was that, during the 14 days when you were staying with him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When I came for the weekends I was not staying with him, I was based in Pretoria, I would help him when I came visiting for the weekend.

ADV DE JAGER: And how often did you visit him for weekends?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I would visit him on Saturdays, I would help him normally on Saturdays.

ADV DE JAGER: How often on Saturdays, once a month, twice a month, how many Saturdays did you visit him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I would go with him, to him a month and maybe skip a month or so.

ADV DE JAGER: And school holidays?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were studying then.

ADV DE JAGER: Because Mrs Sarkardi says she when visiting her brother she found you there, during school holidays when she visited him or during a school holiday let's put it that way.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: There was a time, perhaps once a month, that I would go there but I was not frequenting the place but during the six month period during which I managed to study I had to concentrate on my studies, I couldn't stay a week or three in his house because I had to study.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman the letter which Commissioner de Jager read from has a cover page addressed to T Thabethe and it's apparently a fax that was sent on the 19th of March 1997.  We received it the same time as you did Mr Chairman, that is why I haven't referred to this before.  You see the point now, on this issue, becomes very confusing because earlier today, am I correct, that you told the Committee that in 1986 you were assaulted and you were then taken to Mr Venter for refuge, is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: And then you stayed with him for 14 days.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Now first of all were you not hospitalised immediately after you were assaulted by your fellow scholars, your fellow students?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I took, I was taken by Lieutenant Erasmus on my way from Tswametsi Hospital.

MR VISSER: So you first went to hospital is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: After being assaulted I was taken to hospital by Tswametsi(..this does not make sense).... and Lieutenant Erasmus and Tswametsi are the ones who took me there to Mr Venter's house, but the person who introduced me there is
Lieutenant Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Yes, how long were you hospitalised?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was ditched and the same day I was taken away, I didn't sleep there.

MR VISSER: I see.  And when you slept for those 14 days at Mr Venter's house in which room did you sleep, where, outside, inside the house, where?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He's got some outside rooms that he uses for his domestic servants and other people, that's where I was staying.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, and did it take you 14 days to recover from the assault, from your wounds sustained in the assault?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: After 14 days I felt much better.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I could walk about and do everything.

MR VISSER: You see now Commissioner de Jager put these questions to you and what we would like to ask you is this, when did you manage, since 1986 to do all the things that this lady Mrs Sarkardi says in her letter, if you didn't frequently visit or stay with Mr Venter?   Do you understand the question?  You've had to have been there frequently to do the things which Mrs Sarkardi talks about in her letter, isn't that so?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: From 1986 up until 1989 it's a long time, I had enough time to do all that.

MR VISSER: Yes.  But would you concede then that you were a regular visitor to Mr Venter from 1986 at least?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was not a frequent visitor because I was working and during 1986 I studied as well, where would I get all the time?

MR VISSER: Yes, I didn't intend to put to you that you went visiting him, but you went there to work in the garden and do things, in that sense, you frequented his premises frequently, that's what I am trying to put to you.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Not so many times as I have explained.

MR VISSER: Yes.  The last point on the application form which I want you to reply to is at page 5, paragraph 10D.  Now that paragraph asks the question, if I should first read C, the form asks,
"Did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise?"
and your answer was,
"Yes I benefitted financially".
And D says,
"If so explain the nature and extent of such benefits".
and you said this,
"I received R500,00 cash for performing successful operations for the Security Branch".
Now first of all would you explain whether the R500,00 which you talk about here was also for something other than eliminating Mr Venter, or was it only for eliminating Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That R500,00 I got it specifically for that operation that was successful.

MR VISSER: So the word "successful operations" is incorrect, it should be "this successful operation" is that what you intend to say?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now Erasmus will give evidence and he will tell this Committee that you, as an informer while you
were still a student, received remuneration from the Police of between 2 and R400,00 per month depending on how valuable the information was which you conveyed to Erasmus.  That was a long question.  Must I repeat it or did you understand it?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: You may repeat it Sir.

MR VISSER: Erasmus says that you earned between 2 and R400,00 per month as an informer of the Police.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No he is telling a lie.

MR VISSER: Well what do you say is the position then, did you receive any remuneration while you were an informer?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They were paying me amounts like R70,00 or R90,00, the maximum amount he ever gave me was R100,00 and I even signed for that.  If he was giving me that amount of R200,00 or R500,00 he must produce documentary proof to that effect, because I signed for all the amounts he gave me.

MR VISSER: What did you do with the R500,00 which you got, according to you, for eliminating Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I used it.  I bought clothing and I bought alcohol and drank it.

MR VISSER: Well it will be denied that you were instructed in any way to eliminate or do anything to Mr Venter or that you were paid any amount of money in that regard.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was paid, I got the money.

MR VISSER: Now Mrs Sarkardi mentioned something about you having been suspended at the time of the death of Mr Venter, did you hear that when Commissioner de Jager read to you from her letter, did you hear that, that she says so?  You were suspended.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I am not aware of any suspension, I was arrested.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo I want to take you back to the day when Mr Venter died, okay, do you understand?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes.....

MR VISSER: Were you suspended from your services in the police at that time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was never suspended when Mr Venter died, I was arrested and thereafter I got my money whilst I was in prison.  No official came to tell me that I was suspended as a police official.  I was just arrested and I appeared in court.  Nobody approached me about suspension till today.

MR VISSER: Are you talking about being suspended for the death of Mr Venter, is that what you are talking about?   I am talking about before Mr Venter was assassinated, when you were in Bloemfontein from Pretoria, was that a time when you were suspended from your duties?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Suspended what for?

MR VISSER: For assault.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: For the assault of who?