Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MR HUMAN: Did any of your colleagues, being the ANC guards on the parapet, did they have radio contact with their colleagues on the ground level for purpose of communication?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I don't remember seeing a radio amongst those whom I was with on that day.

MR HUMAN: Did you see Mr Basil Jacobs on the parapet firing any shots at the crowd?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I don't know that person Sir.

MR HUMAN: One other aspect I want to clarify with you, do I understand you to say that the shot you fired from the parapet you fired that shot indiscriminately into the crowd without identifying the person that you want to shoot at.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I spoke of people who were attacking not people who were marching.

MR HUMAN: But the shot that you fired was indiscriminate, you didn't aim at somebody specifically.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I shot among the people who were attacking.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the answer is really he wasn't pointing his gun at a particular individual.

MR HUMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  When you fired this shot was there any reaction in the crowd?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I don't understand what you mean by response.

MR HUMAN: Did the crowd stop moving, did they turn around, did they still proceed towards Plein Street, what happened to the crowd?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: At the time when I was shooting those people were still coming to Shell House.  That's what I remember.

MR HUMAN: So even after you've fired the shot they still proceeded towards Plein Street.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I was not looking then until until the end of the shooting.

MR HUMAN: Excuse me you fired a shot towards the crowd, after you fired the shot did you immediately go down, didn't you look anymore or what happened?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: After shooting I took cover.  After I shot I took cover.

MR HUMAN: After you took cover did you peep over the parapet again to see whether they are still proceeding and whether you were effective or not?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: The way I took cover it was in such a way that for you to look to the street you should stand up straight so that you should look down.

MR HUMAN: Why didn't you get up again and have a look at what was happening to the crowd Sir?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I've already said that the shooting was still going on.  If I would raise my head I will be susceptible to that shooting.

MR HUMAN: I only want to put it to you that on behalf of the people that I appear for, the objectors, will also state that they had no firearms with them on that day and they were not attacking Shell House.  Do you got any comment on that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I don't know the people that you are representing and even at that time I did not know them.

MR HUMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUMAN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes any other questions?

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Moolman when you were at the corner of King George and de Villiers at the parapet were you able to see the crowd that was eventually shot and still advancing in de Villiers Street? Were you able to see them at that stage before they were at the intersection?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Which people?  I don't understand.

MR PRETORIUS: There was evidence that there was a crowd coming from Wanderers Street into de Villiers Street towards King George and that they met with another group at the intersection of King George and then they moved down in King George.  I am asking you, when you were on the parapet in the corner at the corner of King George and de Villiers were you able to see this crowd advancing to the intersection of King George?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: In my evidence I spoke about two groups the one which came from de Villiers to Wanderers and the one which came from Noord to King George I don't know which group you are talking about.

MR HUMAN: I am referring you to the group that was coming from Wanderers to King George in de Villiers Street?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: What's your question?

MR HUMAN: My question is were you able to see this crowd before they entered into the intersection at King George?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct Sir.

MR HUMAN: What was this crowd doing whilst they were advancing in de Villiers Street?  Were they just walking quietly, were they singing were they dancing?  What was this group doing in de Villiers Street when you saw them?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: They were dancing, others were raising their traditional weapons.

MR PRETORIUS: If someone should describe this group to you as moving quietly not singing not dancing, would you agree with that description?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That's the way I remember.

MR PRETORIUS: No, but would you agree with such a description of the crowd?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I would disagree with that Sir.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you just for completeness sake the objectors on whose behalf for whom I appear, the situation is exactly the same as that of my colleagues and I would not like to repeat that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

MS VAN HUYSSTEEN: Sorry Mr Chairman I have no questions but I would just like to state that the objectors on whose behalf I appear their position are the same.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll record that.	Yes, no questions.

MS VAN HUYSSTEEN: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman before re-examination there is just one issue that we would like to clarify if we can on behalf of Mr Potsane.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you wishing to put questions to this witness?

MR CURRIN: There is just one aspect of his evidence which is slightly in variance with what Mr Potsane says.  And I just think that I need to put it on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Do that.

MR CURRIN: Thank you. Mr Moolman in your evidence you testified that Mr Potsane joined you after you had shot.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct Sir.

MR CURRIN: You are aware that in his evidence which you've read before the inquest that he says that he joined you on the parapet before you shot, do you have any comment about that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: At the time when I saw it was the time I was recycling my gun.

MR CURRIN: And the last point that I would just like to raise with you. Mr Potsane says that when he joined you on the parapet you told him that you were under attack.  Do you recall that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I don't remember talking to him.  I remember that he took a gun from me.

MR CURRIN: Thank you,  I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MS MOROKA: Just two questions.  Mr Moolman have you got your record there with you?  Have you got the record there with you?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: I want to refer you to page 3467.  You were asked a question as to whether, as to who had fired the first on the parapet and you were referred to page 3443 where you said you had indicated that Mr Molefe had fired first.  At page 3467 I want you to read - you are able to read English aren't you?  The question reads Mr Moolman
"So do you say that as far as you are aware you were the first one to fire?"
and your answer is - Correct.  Do you recall that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes.

MS MOROKA: And I further want to refer you to page 3445.  Chairperson my Afrikaans is not very good but I will read in Aafrikaans.

MS MOROKA: "Nou behalwe vir die skote teen die balkon van watter ander skote praat u nou?

WITNESS:  Daar is skote wat die parapet self getref het asook die muur agter ons".

MS MOROKA: Do you confirm that you said that at the inquest?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Dorfling you've indicated in your cross-examination that the witness did make reference to standing in the middle of the parapet.  Would you just indicate where that appears on the record of the inquest if you can?