Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

MR PATEL: I beg leave to call Mr Livingstone Lukhele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lukhele, what language would you prefer to use?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I would speak Zulu.
LIVINGSTONE M. LUKHELE: (sworn states)

MR PATEL: Mr Lukhele, where were you born?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I was born at Ermelo.

MR PATEL: Have you lived all your life in Ermelo?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, what was your occupation?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I was not employed.

MR PATEL: And at that time, were you a member of any political organisation?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Now, according to the schedule ...

CHAIRPERSON: Which political party was that?

MR PATEL: I beg your pardon, which political party did you belong to?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: African National Congress.

MR PATEL: Were you an office bearer or just an ordinary member?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: An ordinary member.

MR PATEL: According to the schedule on page 22, you claim amnesty for firstly the murder of Obed Nhlabathi, do you confirm that?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: That occurred in August 1992?  You also claim amnesty for the murder of Bhe Malinga in October 1993, is that correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes,  that is correct.

MR PATEL: Thirdly you claim amnesty for the attempted murder of unknown members of the South African Police in November 1993, is that correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: And finally you claim amnesty for the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition.  Is that correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Mr Patel, how do we solve our problem with unknown members of the South African Police?  We don't know names and we don't know numbers.
	I don't ask this question because I think you've got a problem, I just want to know how we are going to phrase in the event of us granting amnesty, how are we going to phrase that because if for example there were five Policemen, then we grant amnesty because he says there were four.  Can he be prosecuted for the fifth one and if he is prosecuted, who is that fifth one?

MR PATEL: I would like to have said that that is the Committee's problem, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: I told you the other day, we can pass the ball well enough.  We just refuse amnesty.

MR PATEL: What I would like to say is the evidence will be led that this particular incident was a shoot-out with Policemen, that the applicant was involved in and perhaps instead of granting amnesty if amnesty is going to be granted, rather than mentioning the number of Policemen involved, rather to mention the particular incident, on that date, this is what happened and for that particular offence.

CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps cultured in terms of all the Policemen who were involved in that particular incident?
	Maybe, I will have to give it some thought.

ADV BOSMAN: Question Mr Patel, perhaps you should also look at the particular statutory crimes relating to political violence at the time, that may be able to assist you.
	That is also just a suggestion, I am not saying it is necessarily so.

CHAIRPERSON: I see in his application here, perhaps your Attorney might be able to help you, she, I understand it is, it looks like her handwriting, as it is the case with the other applicants gone by already, question 9(c)(iv), page 135, any other information which assist in identifying and locating victims, if the South African Police in Ermelo could assist, I am not too sure, maybe that is the answer, I don't know.

MR PATEL: I will certainly look into it and see if she can assist in any of it Mr Chairman.
	Thank you.  Let's deal firstly with the murder of Obed Nhlabathi.  This is the gentleman that was killed in the hospital, am I correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: What was your motivation with regard to the killing of Obed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: He was killed for political reasons.

MR PATEL: Was he killed because of an express instruction received from anybody?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, there were instructions, but the instructions were not direct.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Committee what instructions you had received?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: It was an implied order that I received.

MR PATEL: Yes, and what was the implication?  What was told to you?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: As a member of the SDU, my duty was to protect members of the community so that we could restore peace.

MR PATEL: Who gave you this instruction?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: This came from Mr Gushu during our discussion.

MR PATEL: Now, did you know Mr Nhlabathi prior to his death?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Who was he?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: He was a member of Inkatha.

MR PATEL: Had he been identified by anybody as being a trouble maker?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We already knew that he was one of the persons perpetrating the violence, ourselves as the community were conducting our own research.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, not that it is a requirement in which absence the application could be fatal, I am not suggesting that, but where in his statement does he give the details as to what happened in the hospital?  I don't seem to find it.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, at some stage and I think most appropriately at the stage of argument, I will have to address the Committee with regard to what is contained in this statements, why there were two background statements, etc, etc.

CHAIRPERSON: I accept that.  If you remember when Khaba gave evidence, this witness became a central figure, not a central figure, but he became or his actions became a feature of what occurred in the hospital.  For what it is worth, I don't know whether this is going to effect our findings at the end of the day, I haven't discussed it with my colleagues yet, but there was an issue of whether he was stabbed or shot.
	At some time I think Khaba said well if he was stabbed, I don't know about it, but Livingstone may be able to shed light on that and when one looks at both original form and the supplementary statement, I am not too sure whether it is (indistinct), on page 134, he claims to have stabbed somebody but the details are not too clear.
	That is the closest it comes.

MR PATEL: I don't want to give evidence for the applicant, but the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe it will help to ask him and place it before us.

MR PATEL: Yes, I will get there Mr Chairman.  Mr Lukhele, your act of assisting in the murder of Mr Nhlabathi, where did that occur?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: It started at Extension and went as far as the hospital at Ermelo.

MR PATEL: I think it is probably necessary for you to tell us what happened in the Extension?  At the Extension, what happened?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: When we went out to the Extension, we were going to Bongani's grandmother.

MR PATEL: Could you just tell the Committee who do you mean when you say we?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I am referring to Bongani Khaba, myself and Dumsani.

MR PATEL: Yes, carry on.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Before we arrived there, we met some people on the road and some people told us that they had a problem at the disco, they were being troubled by the Black Cats and we took the route that would go passed the disco and on our way, one of the Black Cat members came and he was going to walk passed us towards the disco.  I think he must have arrived there first and told them that we were coming.
	I found myself at the hands of another Black Cat member who was handling me.  I was having a jungle knife and I freed myself with this knife, after which myself and Bongani fled, seeing that they had seen us first.
	Gunshots were fired during which time we had already started fleeing.  That is when we came across Obed.  I don't know really how we came to meet him.

MR PATEL: Who shot first, do you know?