Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

ADV DE JAGER: Now, as far as Gilbert was concerned, what was his position, what was his rank in the Eastern Cape?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Exactly the same as that which General Erasmus held, he was the Divisional Commander of the Security Branch.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, if Erasmus did not need to obtain authorization higher up, why should Gilbert had that need?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can't tell you.  Perhaps Gilbert felt that he wanted to clear it at a higher level, that is the only inference that I can draw.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we ask you this questions which may not be fair at all, did Gilbert, I am not so sure, did Gilbert say to you that he had cleared it up with higher authorities?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, he said that he had been given the okay from above.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then the questions are fair.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I see it is one o'clock, is that the time to adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until two o'clock.  I have been approached to ask members of the public who are using the headphones to please leave them, don't take them away, because they need to be recharged time and again.  Please leave them in the hall.  Yes, leave them on the chair where you are now, you will come back and use them when you come back, but they must now be left in the hall.  The same thing should happen later, when we adjourn at four o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ford?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: (s.u.o.)

UNKNOWN: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Van Rensburg, just to finish off the aspect of the right to kill.  You as a Security Policeman, I am sure have read much of the literature which is available dealing with counter insurgency and the like, is that a correct assumption I make?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I have read some of it.

UNKNOWN: And would it be a correct statement for me to make that in most if not all the literature available, all are agreed that the elimination, the assassination of individuals is an absolute final resort?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And if that is so in regard of members of the community, surely it would apply equally if not more so to your colleagues?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now, when you were involved in Port Elizabeth here in the Security Branch Mr Van Rensburg, did you know any of the victims Mr Mgoduka, Mr Faku, Mr Mapipa or Mr Jack?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I however don't, I can't recall Mr Mapipa.  He could have been here but I can't place him, but the others, yes.

UNKNOWN: And specifically Mr Mgoduka and Mr Faku presumably had worked in the Security Branch for some time, and were well-known Security Branch members, would you agree with that?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I agree.

UNKNOWN: And you personally had never had any problems with them I assume before you left?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not personally.

UNKNOWN: Well, let me ask you were you aware of any problems in so far as their loyalty as policemen were concerned before you left?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I wasn't.

UNKNOWN: And presumably a second in command in the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth, had there been any such problems with their loyalty, their affiliations, you would have been aware of it?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I think so.  I should have.

UNKNOWN: Now, you have told this Commission in answer to some of the questions that have already been asked, that it was and is logically expected of a junior officer or even member of the Police Force, to obey an order when it is given to him?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: And you as a senior officer, were responsible for giving many orders?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And certain of those orders, if we are to understand your evidence related to illegal, illegitimate acts, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: And presumably you would have understood and expected that your junior officers would be relying upon you to ensure that orders which you gave them, be they legitimate or illegitimate in the overall context, were orders which were necessary and justified in the circumstances?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And did you fulfil that duty Mr Van Rensburg, when you gave orders?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I thought it was justifiable.

UNKNOWN: Now, if, as you have already said, the elimination of individuals, the assassination of people and more particularly your colleagues, was it an absolute last resort presumably in no circumstances you would have considered it your duty to conduct extensive investigations to ensure that it was justified and necessary?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you do that Mr Van Rensburg?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I didn't do it myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ford.  When you are asking whether he did that, are you asking a general question or are you asking in respect of this particular incident?

UNKNOWN: This particular incident, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because perhaps you need to indicate to the witness when you move from the general perspective onto a particular case, because at some stage I get the impression that it is not very clear as to whether you are still asking questions on a general level or whether you are asking questions in respect of a particular case.

UNKNOWN: I am sorry Mr Chairman, I will specify.  Mr Van Rensburg, you have already said this was the only, the first time and if I understood you, the only time that you were ever required to participate in the execution of your colleagues, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: So this is the instance I am talking about.  Did you conduct investigations in regard to this incident?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I didn't do any investigation personally.

UNKNOWN: Why not?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Because I wasn't in a position to make enquiries and launch investigations.  The people on the ground were responsible for doing that and Mr Gilbert reported to me that he had cleared the matter with head quarters and I accepted it like that.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier Gilbert was not responsible for any of the operatives at Vlakplaas, was he?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

UNKNOWN: That was your responsibility?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And you gave orders to those operatives in respect of this incident, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I gave Mr De Kock an order.

UNKNOWN: Well, then I put to you Mr Van Rensburg, that it was your duty to ascertain that what you were ordering them to do, was necessary, justified and the only possible alternative in the circumstances.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we discussed it in those terms in my house and the assurance was given to me that there was a proper investigation beforehand, and that there was no other option.

UNKNOWN: I see.  Now, you in your affidavit, page 3 of your affidavit, you say I was in charge of a Unit which conducted all security investigations in the RSA and coordinated all these investigations and also administered all the detentions in terms of the security legislation.  Is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You were well aware of the legislation available in so far as the detention of so-called enemies of the State at the time, was concerned, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You were aware of the prohibition in respect of communication with legal representatives of such persons?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: They couldn't communicate with members of their family?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.