Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR DORFLING: It would appear then that the person who had injured him had probably been behind him when he was injured, would you agree?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: As you sit here today Inspector, you have already indicated this in the inquest, that as far as you could see, and perhaps I could refer you to the page 2056, line 22 where the question was put to whether you could find any reason why shots were fired, your answer was
"no I can't tell you."

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Is that still your evidence, as you sit here today could you find no reason within your own mind why shots were fired?

MR VAN REENEN: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I've just got a couple of questions to raise with the witness with your leave, thank you.
	Mr van Reenen, just regarding the shooting incident, if you'll refer back to page 2055 before line 10, the piece after that you relate how you arrived there and then you say:
"Moments thereafter shots were fired"
Let's just place that in perspective, you said that you and Van Greunen were bumped out of the way:
"Van Greunen went west and I went east, moments after that shots were fired"
So there moments after you had been bumped out of the way in a western direction, the shots went off?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Could I then also refer you to page 2107, at the top of the page from line 1

MR PRETORIUS: "What did you see when the shots were fired for the first time"?

WITNESS:  When I heard the shots I saw how the group of people on the western side began to fall"

MR PRETORIUS: Therefore moments after you had been bumped out of the way, the shots went off and when the shots went off you saw the people fall?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: In conjunction with my learned friend's question, inasfar as it was a shooting incident from within the group, you also confirm at other places such as page 2104 that there was no shooting from within the group, that is from line 10 and further, that is in relation to my learned friend Mr Tip's questions.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: As far as you know, you never heard any shots being fired from within the group?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: And then, in conclusion, on that very same page there has been evidence given by the ANC guards, and it was also put to you that you indeed after you had tried to stop the group and they wouldn't give in to your appeal, you did not move away from the group but you actually ran back in the direction of the ANC, in fact you ran until you joined the ANC guards who were on the corner of King George's Street?

MR VAN REENEN: That is a false statement, van Greunen and I never ran back to Plein Street on the corner of King George Street, we moved down De Villiers Street, we never ran back to King George Street.

MR PRETORIUS: Constable van Greunen was with the group who had been shot where the people later fell?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR BERGER: No further questions for the witness thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gollach would you please come forward.

MR GOLLACH: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, it's me this time.
	Sergeant Gollach, I want to take you very briefly to the first incident in Plein Street when there was a shooting down from the direction of Wanderers, do you recall that?

MR GOLLACH: Ja.

MR BERGER: The shots came from the direction of Wanderers Street and an ANC guard came to you and said that they were being shot at, the ANC guards were being shot at and as a result of that you went west down Plein Street in the direction of Wanderers Street to investigate, is that correct?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You will also recall that after you had crossed Plein Street, I beg your pardon, King George Street, you said that you heard 2 to 3 shots from a handgun which was behind you, is that right?

MR GOLLACH: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Not a shotgun?

MR GOLLACH: No.

MR BERGER: And you'll also recall that you were very frightened at that time, correct?

MR GOLLACH: I was rather nervous, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And you will recall what was put to you, I put it to you in fact, during the inquest.  I had Mr Eddie Khumalo sitting next to me and he pointed out that you were the young policeman who had taken cover in Plein Street between King George and De Villiers and that you appeared to be very frightened and in fact you were shaking, and Mr Khumalo in fact came to assist you and to take you out of that dangerous situation.

MR GOLLACH: No, at that stage all of us, myself, Skippers, Potgieter and Van Reenen had crossed the intersection.  I can't remember that he took me out of there, we all moved back to the intersection.

MR BERGER: Well you'll recall at the inquest you gave various answers to that question, but the very first answer that you gave when I put it to you that Mr Khumalo said that he in fact came and took you out of that dangerous situation, you said that
"It is possible that Mr Khumalo came to assist me"
Did you not?

MR GOLLACH: Is that in the record, if it is could you please refer me to it.

MR BERGER: Page 4214 and 4215 of the record.  At the top of page 4214, well if I can just go to the bottom of 4213, I asked you
"You felt that you were in the middle of a dangerous situation, is that right?"
You answer:  
"Ja."
Question: 
"You were nervous, correct?
		---  "That's correct".
"You were shaking, were you not?"
Answer:  
"I can't recall"
Then I said to you:
"Mr Khumalo over here, I asked him to come to Court today to see if you are one of the two people that he spoke about who was shivering in Plein Street, nervous and unsure what to do, and he tells me that you are one of them."
And your answer:  
"If it is as he says it is, it may be so.  That is not how I experienced it.  I would say that one was afraid, one knew where the shots were coming from but I wouldn't say that I was shaking"
Question:  
"And at that - there were two of you, two young Policemen and that he feared for your safety, that he came and took you out of that situation and told you Commanding Officer not to send young plicemen into such a dangerous situation."
		--- "That I can't recall, no"
And then after that the Court asked you certain questions and you said you couldn't remember.  Then at 4215 when I said:
"Sergeant is it possible that Mr Khumalo in fact did come and take you and a colleague of yours out of that dangerous situation?"
You said:  
"Ek kan nie onthou nie, ek kan nie se dit is nie moontlik nie.  Ek kan nie onthou dan enigiemand - volgens my het ons self terugbeweeg.  Ek sal nie so se nie, nee."
And then further on you say it wasn't possible;  and then further on say it was possible, but the point that I'm putting to you is that when I first asked you, you said:
"Yes, it's possible"

MR GOLLACH: It could have been, but I don't think that's what happened, we all moved back.  It could have happened, but that's not how I remember it subsequently.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect Mr Chair, I think my learned friend should just read on a few more lines where the witness's evidence is quite clear at page 4215, at line 10

MR DORFLING: "Sergeant is it possible that Mr Khumalo in fact did come to take you and a colleague of yours out of that dangerous situation.

WITNESS:  Ek kan nie onthou nie, ek kan nie se dit is nie moontlik nie, ek kan nie onthou dat enigiemand - volgens my het ons self terugbeweeg.  Ek sal nie so se nie, nee."

MR DORFLING: And then by Court:

MR DORFLING: "Maar wat is daardie antwoord?"

MR DORFLING: And the answer:

MR DORFLING: "No."

MR DORFLING: That was the answer given by the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)