Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

INTERPRETER: Yes that's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: En het u op 'n stadium toe nou weg van hulle af beweeg?

INTERPRETER: Did you, at a certain stage, leave them behind and moved away from them?

MNR ODENDAL: Ja - ja.  Ek kan vir u meer verduidelik as u wil he - dan sal ek opstaan en vir u wys.

INTERPRETER: I could show you again if you want to.

ADV POTGIETER: Nee-nee dis all right ons sal sien of ons mekaar nie sommer kan verstaan soos ons praat nie.

INTERPRETER: We see if we can't understand one another while we are talking.

ADV POTGIETER: Hulle twee het in die bosse ingehardloop - hulle het verdwyn van u af.

INTERPRETER: They ran away into the bushes and you did not see them afterwards?

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek ja.

ADV POTGIETER: U het hulle nie verder gesien en gesien wat hulle doen nie.

INTERPRETER: And you did not see them afterwards, you couldn't see what they were doing?

MNR ODENDAL: Nee.

ADV POTGIETER: Het u enige skote gehoor daar in die omgewing waar hulle was?

INTERPRETER: Did you hear any shots being fired?

ADV POTGIETER: Barnard en Sterrenberg?

INTERPRETER: There Barnard and Stellenberg were running too.

MNR ODENDAL: Terwyl ek gehardloop het, was daar so baie skote afgegaan.  Ek kan nie spesifiek onthou of ek daar skote gehoor het nie.

INTERPRETER: While I was running, I heard so many shots being fired.  I couldn't specifically remember whether I heard shots coming from the bushes.

MNR ODENDAL: Terwyl ek opgehardloop het, soos ek se ek het by die bruggie opgehardloop, het daar baie sarsies skote plaasgevind.

INTERPRETER: There was a lot of shots fired.

ADV POTGIETER: So u is nie seker of daar skote daar van daai - uit daai bosse uitgekom het nie.

INTERPRETER: So you don't know whether any shots were being fired in those bushes?

ADV POTGIETER: Het u verwag daar gaan 'n skietery wees?

INTERPRETER: Did you expect that shooting was going to take place on that specific day?

MNR ODENDAL: Die betrokke dag?

ADV POTGIETER: Ja.

MNR ODENDAL: As 'n man met terroriste te doen het, moet jy dit verwag het dat daar 'n skietery kan wees, dis korrek.

INTERPRETER: If you have to do with terrorists, you can expect that there will be some shooting.

MNR ODENDAL: As die persoon nou nie oorgee nie, dan vind 'n skietery plaas, dit kan moontlik - dis 'n moontlikheid wat ek voorsien het.

INTERPRETER: And if the person does not give himself over, then you can expect and have to 
foresee the possibility that there will be shooting.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou u was in beheer gewees.

INTERPRETER: You were in charge of this operation.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: En u het verwag dat daar gaan 'n skietery wees.

INTERPRETER: You expected that shooting would took place.

ADV POTGIETER: Waarom het u toegelaat dat die polisiebussie daai oggend nog steeds daai roete ry?

INTERPRETER: Why did you allow the police bus still to follow that route that morning?

MNR ODENDAL: Om die aanvallers aan te keer, te arresteer.

INTERPRETER: Because we wanted to apprehend the attackers.

ADV POTGIETER: So - so u wou hulle uitlok?

INTERPRETER: You wanted to entice those people?

MNR ODENDAL: Nee ek bedoel nie vir uitlok nie, as 'n man inligting dis 'n plek wat geroof of aangeval word, moet jy as 'n polisielid stappe neem om daai persone te arresteer.

INTERPRETER: If you have information that a person or an object is going to be robbed, you have to be there to apprehend them.

ADV POTGIETER: En om onnodige lewensverlies te verhoed.

INTERPRETER: And to prevent a loss of life, is that also necessary?

MNR ODENDAL: Onnodige lewensverlies - ek glo dis korrek.

INTERPRETER: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: So jy sal nie jou eie mense goedsmoeds daar in 'n situasie in stuur waar jy verwag hulle sal so 'n voorval gebeur nie, nie waar nie - as 'n verantwoordelike polisiebeampte?

INTERPRETER: So, you would not send your own people into a situation which you would expect that a shout out would take place - as a responsible officer, would you do that?

MNR ODENDAL: Ek verstaan die vraag nou nie mooi nie.

INTERPRETER: I don't understand correctly.

ADV POTGIETER: As a responsible policeman, that where you are responsible for those people and you expect that shooting will take place, why would you send your own people into such a situation?  Why would you allow the bus to follow that route?

MNR ODENDAL: Om soos ek u reeds gese het om die persone wat die aanval loods om hulle te arresteer of in die hande te kry.

INTERPRETER: It is important for the people - for the attackers to be able to apprehend them, because you want to entice them?

ADV POTGIETER: So - so om hulle aan te lok?

INTERPRETER: Because you want to entice them.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis nie om hulle aan te lok nie.

INTERPRETER: No it's not to entice them.

MNR ODENDAL: Nou om die regte persoon in die hande te kry.

INTERPRETER: It is to get hold of the correct person.

ADV POTGIETER: Nee, want u wil mos nou he - kyk u verwag daar gaan 'n aanval wees.

INTERPRETER: Now, you expect that an attack will be launched and you want these people.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: En u wil he dat die persone moet probeer om hulle plan uit te voer sodat u hulle kan arresteer.

INTERPRETER: You want them to execute their plan so that you can arrest these people.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis reg.

ADV POTGIETER: En daarom stuur u nou die voertuig daar in sodat u kan hulle kry om te probeer om die voertuig aan te val.

INTERPRETER: And this is why you sent that vehicle there, so that you can entice them to attack this vehicle - is that not so?

MNR ODENDAL: As die voertuig deurkom en die voertuig word aangeval moet daar - moet daar opgetree word teen hulle.

INTERPRETER: If the vehicle is being attacked, you have to act against them.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja maar die rede hoekom u nie die voertuig gestop het nie, dis eintlik die punt.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja maar die rede hoekom u nie die voertuig gestop het nie, dis eintlik die punt.  Want u wou gehad het dat hierdie mense moet die voertuig aanval.

INTERPRETER: Tell me the reason why did you not prevent the vehicle from following that route?  Is it because you wanted those people to attack the bus?  Why didn't you stop the bus before hand, this vehicle?

MNR ODENDAL: Nee ek wil nie gehad het hulle moet die voertuig aanval nie.

ADV POTGIETER: Waarom het u dan nie die voertuig gestop nie?

MNR ODENDAL: Die voertuig gestop nie?

ADV POTGIETER: Ja.

MNR ODENDAL: Die voertuig wil mos deurgaan.

INTERPRETER: How could I stop the vehicle - the vehicle had to go that way.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar u weet dan nou die voertuig gaan aangeval word.

INTERPRETER: But you knew this vehicle was going to be attacked.

MNR ODENDAL: Ek het nie geweet hulle  [onduidelik]

ADV POTGIETER: En u wil nie - u se nou vir ons vandag onder eed u wou nie gehad het dat die voertuig aangeval moet word nie, nou vra ek vir u, waarom stop u dit nie?

INTERPRETER: And you are telling us today, under oath, that you did not want the vehicle to be attacked.  Why didn't you stop it?

MNR ODENDAL: Ons het die voertuig soos ek u  reeds gese het laat deurgaan om die persone wat die voertuig aanval, om hulle te arresteer.

INTERPRETER: As I have said already, we allowed the vehicle to go through, to be able to apprehend the attackers .

ADV POTGIETER: En omdat u gedink het dat - as u daai  voertuig stop, dan gaan daar nie 'n aanval wees nie, nie waar nie.

INTERPRETER: And because you thought that if you stopped this vehicle, there will not be an attack - isn't that so?

ADV POTGIETER: Dis mos logies.

INTERPRETER: That's logical.

MNR ODENDAL: Ja dan is die voertuig deur, maar daar kan daar ander polisievoertuie deurgegaan het wat ook aangeval word.

ADV POTGIETER: Nee maar - nee maar u weet mos nou - u weet mos nou waaroor die aanval gaan.  Dit gaan spesifiek oor daai bussie, wat op 'n spesifieke tyd in die oggend by daai kruising verbygaan.