bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

CHAIRPERSON: So it was Khumalo himself who came, not just people who were associated with him?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: Yes that is true, he used to come personally together with his people.  It would be himself, at times it would be Peter or another relative of theirs, I don't know what his name is.

CHAIRPERSON: And the two other people whom you mentioned, Joshua and Russel, do you have any knowledge of their whereabouts? Are they still in the township?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: They were boers, I don't know where they stayed.  I only saw them by their name tags because the other one, when I tried to read the name tag, he hid it with his hand.  They were always driving in a combi or a casper.

CHAIRPERSON: Lillian thank you very much for coming to make this statement. One of the tasks, a very important task of the Truth Commission is to make findings as to whether people are victims of gross human rights violations or not, and one of the things we do do, is when we try to establish the truthfulness in their statements, is anybody in their statement as a perpetrator, they mention a name or if they mention an organisation or an institution.  Before we can actually make a finding we are obliged those people and to ask them to comment on the charges or the allegations which have been made against them that they have to be given an opportunity to present their side of the story.  so we will certainly be making every effort to contact the people who you mention in your statement, in particular Bishop Khumalo, and we will present to him the allegations which
have been made against him and we will ask him to indicate what his views are, his side of these events and we will certainly be in contact with you. One of the more important jobs which the Human Rights Violations Committee in particular does which is to say to those who are named as alleged perpetrators, do you have anything to say, do you contradict this statement, how do you respond to these charges?  So we certainly will be following that up and we will keep in contact with you.  Thank you for coming.
 And we also...(next tape)...as perpetrators that they will be given every opportunity to answer allegations.  At this point in the life of the Commission these are allegations, they still have to be tested and people have to be given an opportunity to present their sides, so I want to make an appeal to anybody who is named as an alleged perpetrator not to take the law into his or her own hands, that an opportunity will be given to those people to clear their names if they think they've been wrongfully accused or to answer specific charges or allegations made against them, so that's an appeal to people who have been named.  They will get their chance.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

CHAIRPERSON: Could I ask Joseph Mashiane to come forward please.
 Good morning and welcome Joseph.  Before I hand you over to Dr Randera who is going to assist you with your statement could you introduce the person who has come with you?

MR MASHIANI: It's my wife.

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome to your wife. I will give you over to Dr Randera who will assist you.

JOSEPH MASHIANE: (sworn states)

DR RANDERA: Thank you Thaba. Thaba you are taking us back to 1990 to an incident that changed your life and I'm sure that what was happening in your area was already changing your life. So just take your time and tell us what happened.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

MS SEROKI: Now your sister, the one who's husband was killed, where is she now?

MBEMBEZANA MLOTSHWA: She's still living and she has another child now.

MS SEROKI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molotshwa, thank you for coming.  We understand your wanting to come here and to speak about what happened to your family, to your immediate relatives, your brother and your brothers in law and that's your right, that is what the Truth Commission is for.  It's for those who have experienced gross human rights violations, who've lost loved ones, who have been tortured themselves and out of the conflict of the past to actually come and speak about those experiences, and we appreciate you coming and sharing those experiences because they are not always easy to speak about. But I think you must also appreciate the job that we have to do, that while we clearly sympathise with what has happened to you personally, there is a need for us, if we're going to do our job properly to try and understand the background against which these violations took place, the context, the different political motives, the political perspectives and the reason why that's important for our work is because we have to make recommendations at end of the life of the Commission, and we also have to try and ensure that mechanisms are put in place which can prevent this kind of thing happening again because I don't think any of us would want to live through that kind of past, those conflicts, those deaths.  And that's the spirit in which the questions which were put to you were asked to try and understand the context.
But we appreciate you coming, especially given that you have openly stated that your political allegiances are largely with the IFP and we need to hear what has happened to IFP members who were also caught up.  Thank you very much for coming and for sharing and we're hoping as I've said to other witnesses that we will be able quite soon present a report which will give a better picture and a better understanding of what was happening in this part of our country during this period in the 1980's and particularly the 1990's.  Thank you for coming to share your experiences with us.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-04

CHAIRPERSON: Moloko and the family, we would like you to note that the death of Maki was a national shame.  South Africa was looked upon internationally, more especially those who were fighting against apartheid as beasts, as carnivores and that the family managed to stand by Maki even at a time when everybody was saying, away with that family.  We salute you.  The family, more especially Maki, the passing of Maki vitiated all the noble efforts of the liberation struggles.  Everybody was talking about the lack
of order amongst the activists.  In fact, it nearly made some of those people who were collaborators to look more noble than the noble people who were fighting the struggle itself.  Maki and the family have emerged, after all these disclosures, as heroes.  I would say this hearing and this hall have witnessed, who have witnessed this testimony are witnesses of how noble Maki was and I will, without shame, request this house to stand and observe a moment of silence.  Can we all rise.  Thank you.  So what Mrs Seroke was pointing out in terms of those who committed this horror itself, is a challenge to the community of Duduza to say what can they do when their name and the name of the nation was brought into this horror.  We have said already that the deeds were the deeds of Operation Zero Zero and we shall never cease to condemn that kind of a heinous deed.  We thank you Moloko, we thank the family.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you can give us the names later which could assist us in following up what, follow whatever leads you have for us.  Mrs Mstshali, thank you very much for coming.  Like so many of the accounts that we've heard, yours is also a very tragic account, especially the circumstances under which your husband was killed, that he was shot and then he was actually burned and in your statement you say that the only way that his brother was able to recognise him was because of the shoes, that the body was actually burned beyond recognition, and that's quite a hard thing to have to live through.  But one positive thing is that your statement and coming here, just shows us how this conflict had so many sides to it and ravaged so many .......(turn over tape)......which was the background to the decisions taken by whoever, that your husband should be killed, and that he disappears on his way to work.  So there's nothing we can say that can relieve your hurt and your pain, but from the side of the Commission, We're very grateful for you coming forward and sharing this with us and helping us to see just how terrible this conflict was and the costs involved.  Thank you very much Mrs Mstshali.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

CHAIRPERSON: ... till the end of the day actually is going to be on the conflict in Tokoza.  I will ask our first witness from Tokoza to please come forward, Zondi Ngobeni.
    Mrs Ngobeni welcome.  You've come to speak about something that is obviously still causing you a lot of pain, a lot of distress.  I'm going to hand you over to Ms Joyce Seroki who is going to assist you to go through your statement and who will also ask you to take the oath.

MS SEROKI: Could you kindly stand up so that you can take the oath?

ZONDI NGOMENI: (sworn states)

MS SEROKI: Zondi You've come to tell us what took place on the first of August 1983 when your husband went with his friends and they were attacked.  Can you briefly explain to us what happened on that day?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duncan Village — 1996-09-24

UNKNOWN: No we were not aware, though we were suspecting that he could be dead, because he was supposed to have come back on a Monday.

MR SANDI: According to your estimation how long did it take from the time you got to know about Sicelo's death?

UNKNOWN: It took four days for us to know from the time Mr Mbewana had talked to the neighbour.

MR SANDI: Thank you Ms Fazzie.

BONGANI FINCA: Ms Fazzie, we thank you.  It is very clear that your offspring is like that of Maria who was told that her offspring was blessed.
 Because from you we have got some hero's that gave their lives whilst fighting for the freedom of this country.
 Though at that time you must have been very hurt and you were being harassed because people were saying your 
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children were terrorists.
 That is why we have got to hail you and your children as hero's because your children have watered the trees of freedom of this country.
 We therefor salute you and your children.  The requests that you have forwarded before this Commission are going to be taken into consideration and as mentioned earlier on, we would like to know what your opinion is about this rebellion because most parents whose children died in exile have asked that the bones should be brought back to the country.
 So we would like to hear what you have to say about this.   So we thank you.  You can go back to your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duncan Village — 1996-09-24

REV XUNDU: Do you perhaps need that we should help you to have that disability grant?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I want to make that application because I still want to pursue my studies.

BONGANI FINCA: We thank you.  Now I would like to thank all of you before you leave.  I must first thank the victims who gave evidence before this Commission.
 Since yesterday even, the one who is sitting there, I must also thank the Duncan Village community.  We have been going to several places here in the Eastern Cape for various hearings, but the way you have treated us has indicated that you are respectful and we thank you for that.
 I have already mentioned that this is not the end of it, we are going to come once more as soon as we have gathered the people that we still want to hear from.
 We want to thank the people who have given us this accommodation.
 And though some of the times when it is windy, we get scared, we also want to thank Revd Sio, who has been leading us in prayers and even the Ministers who have been working with him.
 We also want to thank the policemen who have been maintaining order here and Revd Xundu as we are going out, felt that we were really secured.
 We thank them.  We must thank the interpreters, we also thank the media technicians who have been giving us accurate, we also have to thank the Regional Manager and we 
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give him a clap.
 He is the one at the head.  We also thank the staff members who may be here.  We must also thank Mr Sengiwa, Mr Daweti, we must also thank the panel seated here in front for another excellent work done.
 We thank you all.  The hearing is now closed.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duncan Village — 1996-09-23

BONGANI FINCA: We don't normally clap in this Commission when we listen to submissions, but I think the people of Duncan Village are doing well by clapping for the submission, because you have portrait a full picture that is very clear to all of us.  A picture of the Duncan Village situation at the time which is going to be of help to us as
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we listen to the stories that are going to be presented to us by the victims so that we should locate them within context.
 I therefore, would say most people, and I am sorry to say this, most people whenever they are promoted by the people and they occupy high positions, they tend to forget the people and have nothing to do with them, and even forget why they were promoted to such positions.  
 We therefore thank you that you are family rooted in this community of Duncan Village.  The way you have done your submission indicates clearly that it is done by a person who is not just wavering in the air, but it is done by a person who though in a high position, remains firmly rooted in the community where he belongs.
 When I said you should say it briefly, and say it in Xhoza, I first thought that I was put you into some difficulty, but you took this in a good heart and you were able to say it in a language that the people understand.  Such that I feel you have not made any omissions here.
 Right enough, you have exceeded the time, but I must say you have done well and people have heard clearly what you have had to say to this Commission.
 We therefore thank you and thank the organisation that you're representing and what you have said to us, has given us the clear context in which we are going to work in these two days we have here.  We thank you for everything.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duncan Village — 1996-09-23

UNKNOWN: After they had assaulted me for the whole day, and also suffocated me, they left me there.
 And they put me into a cell where there were other convicts and they went away.
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 Late in the day they took me to Mdantsane police station and I was there for a day and once more, I spent some time there and I was again taken back to NU 1 police station.

MR SANDI: By the way, what were the injuries you sustained through all this torture and assault and all these incidents?  Can you directly state how you were injured?

UNKNOWN: As a result of all these incidents of assault and torture, I at one stage I could not walk properly, I had to crawl for some time.
 And I had to go and see a specialist at the Medical Centre and I was X-rayed and told that I had fractured my spinal cord.
 Even now, I have got backache and I am very forgetful.  It is not easy for me to remember things that happened in the past, nor to remember people's names.
 Even those people I grew up with, I cannot remember at times.  I cannot concentrate, I loose concentration, such that I cannot read newspapers and books.

MR SANDI: Are you perhaps getting any medical examination, medical attention from hospital or a Doctor?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I go to the day clinic and I get some tablets there, but it doesn't help because I think I am so sick that I've got to go to the specialist.
 But some other times I cannot afford to pay for the medical expense.

MR SANDI: We now would like to conclude and would like you to state your wish to this Commission.

UNKNOWN: My wish is mainly that I am not in a permanent job.  From 1979  I have not been working.  I last worked for the Wilson Rowntree factory and I cannot afford
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to pay for the medical expenses, whereas I need medical attention from specialists.
 So, if this Commission could assist me to pay for this medical expenses, I would be delighted.

MR SANDI: Is this all you have to say to this Commission before I could hand you over to the Chairperson?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is the only help I need.  I could also say if I were to get some financial assistance because I am the only  man in my family, I would be very glad to have it.

MR SANDI: We thank you Mr Mapisa.  We thank you Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: We thank you Mr Mapisa for your report as presented before this Commission.
 All I want to point out is that it is common in our hearings that there is an indication that there was collaboration between the big people of the Government and the police security of the previous regime, because we notice that in your testimony this collaboration of the police and the big people, shows that Wilson Rowntree got an order from the police that they have to dismiss you from work.
 I am just noting all this for the Commission to pursue, we therefor thank you for your testimony and all the things you have mentioned, we are going to look into.
 It is four o'clock now, we are now going to adjourn to resume tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duncan Village — 1996-09-23

BONGANI FINCA: Secondly, there is something that is not very clear here in your statement which is that when you were arrested on the 26th of August 1985, it was as a result of politics, now if that is the case, could you say it clearly what was your activity at the time?

UNKNOWN: My participation was towards the Councillors because they were not welcome at the time as they were an obstacle towards the New South Africa.

BONGANI FINCA: Were you a member of any organisation?  If so, what organisation?

UNKNOWN: I was a member of the ELYO organisation.

BONGANI FINCA: Could you tell us the full name of this?

UNKNOWN: It is East African National Congress.  It is
DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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a Youth Organisation here in East London, it is the East London Youth Organisation.

BONGANI FINCA: Were you one of the leaders or were you just an ordinary member?

UNKNOWN: I was one, I was just an ordinary member.

BONGANI FINCA: Then what could have been the reason for your arrest then if you were just an ordinary member?

UNKNOWN: At the time these Whites were assaulting us because it was Botha's Government and we were not relaxed the way we are now.  Is what I could say because our meetings were not allowed, but now we are relaxed.  That time they used to assault us.

BONGANI FINCA: So, they arrest that took place, were you the only one who was arrested or were there many people who were arrested?

UNKNOWN: There were many.  I could estimate them at about 25 percent of the community.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you.  Are there any questions?  We thank you Mr Mbengo.  We thank you Mr Mbengo for your evidence.  The Commission is going to look into this evidence as presented by you to it and if there are any questions later, they will definitely come back to you because we have your address here and the investigators will reach you if it happens that they need you to get more information from you.
 Otherwise for now, we thank you and we can ask you to go back.

UNKNOWN: If it happens that I relocate and go to another place, I will fit this office with the address of the place I shall be in, otherwise I should thank you all too.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duncan Village — 1996-09-24

UNKNOWN: What I can say is this, I am no longer like before.  I was not a short-tempered person before, even at work, I always quarrel over petty issues.  Even the staff at work is aware of that, so my state of mind is no longer the same as before.

MR SANDI: Is there any other way that you were affected by this shooting?

UNKNOWN: The most important thing is concerning my nerves.  I'm just nervous and when I am looking at my health, my whole being, I am not the same.

MR SANDI: Is there anything that you would like to say Mr Mbewana, just before I ask you another question?

UNKNOWN: There is something else.  The other day I was driving from Mr Bravido's house.
DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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MR SANDI: Were you shot on that particular day?

UNKNOWN: No, I was not.

MR SANDI: I would like you to tell us about the day when you were shot or maybe something happened, maybe the assault.   What happened?

UNKNOWN: When I arrived at home, my home is next to the road.  I discovered that I couldn't get in because there were soldiers blocking the road.

MR SANDI: What happened after that?

UNKNOWN: I just decided that I am going to force my way, I'm going to force my way to my yard.  I did so.  When I alighted from my car, the soldiers were already standing next to my car and they said to me, come kaffir.
 They were calling me.

MR SANDI: In your statement, Mr Mbewana, you referred to the people who shot you.  Do you still remember that?

UNKNOWN: On that particular day the people who shot me, were White.  They were Whites.

MR SANDI: I am going to hand over to the Chairperson, Mr Mbewana, thank you very much for your testimony and your co-operation.

BONGANI FINCA: Revd Xundu.

REV XUNDU: Mr Mbewana, there was another Mr Mbewana here before you.   Is the Mbewana that we are referring to the one you say he is your uncle?

UNKNOWN: No, he is not the one.  That other one is in Transkei.

REV XUNDU: What was your relationship to him?  Were you related?  What happened?

UNKNOWN: I was brought up by the Mbewana family.  Both of them are my uncles.
DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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REV XUNDU: Thank you.  Were you in this condition because you were a political activist?

UNKNOWN: On that particular day I was still a silent member, I was not yet any member of the political organisation, because I was afraid of my uncles.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you very much Mr Mbewana.  We thank you for this testimony.
 We have taken into consideration all of your requests.  Even if you wish that we must bring the perpetrators forward for compensation, though we know that that is not the aim of the  Commission, but we know that that is your wish, our investigation is based on finding the perpetrators and bringing them forward to tell the truth, so that after that there would be reconciliation, but we have taken into consideration your wishes and your request.
 We are going to forward them to the President who will be the one who will be looking at all your requests.  Thank you very much, you can now go back to your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duncan Village — 1996-09-24

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Mr Rubushe and Mr Silwana.  We thank you for this testimony trying to reveal to us things that happened during the Duncan Village massacre.
 But I would like to make a request to the people at large.  There is this name Nkunzemnyama, but we are not able to use this name, because it is not the real name of a person.  If ever there is somebody else here at Duncan Village who has some knowledge of this Nkunzemnyama's real name, we would like to get that - there's one there who's - who knows him.  Can you please see us during the break because the aim of this Commission is to go to those people who did these things.
 Reconciliation is not going to be - we are not going to have reconciliation not until we meet those people and for them to come forward and they must also be here with the victims also.
 So this Nkunzemnyama's name is, we hear this Nkunzemnyama's name for the forth time.  We would like to know his real name to get his true identity so that we can go to him.
 Thank you very much, you can go back to your places.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duncan Village — 1996-09-23

NONGOKU ZWELIFILE: I just asked them whether that's the only question they wanted to ask me and then they said that's all.  And I left the letter there, they didn't ask me any other questions.  I asked my brother who was that police and then he said the one is Nqawe and my brother didn't know who others were.

JUNE CRICHTON: Did you have any further harassment from the police after that?

NONGOKU ZWELIFILE: No, but they stopped me while I was coming from my work, from my job - we're not employed at home.  They stopped me and they wanted to beat me, they wanted me to return the food of which my boss gave me, because they said we didn't like whites, so I should return back the food.

JUNE CRICHTON: In your statement you have asked that you wanted some form of reparation for the son who is the son of Bonakele, is that correct?

NONGOKU ZWELIFILE: Yes, that's correct.

JUNE CRICHTON: Would you like to tell me what you mean by some form of reparation, what do you mean exactly?  Do you want help with education?

NONGOKU ZWELIFILE: My request is that I want his mother to be helped, because their father died when they were still young.  My mother brought them here in East London and I was working for them.  He is old now and I want him to be educated.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you very much Mr Zwelifile, I hand you back to the Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: Nombulelo and Ms Zwelifile, Nongoku
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Zwelifile, I was referring to that lady next to you - we would like to thank you for coming here.
 For bringing the evidence in front of this Commission about the death of your brothers.  Your brothers died in the struggle between the South African Defence Force and the people of Duncan Village.
 As we are listening to the stories, it becomes clear to us that the situation you are presenting to us, is a struggle.  It was a war which required people to loose their lives to compensate.  Your brothers, both of them, Bonakele and Zandisile, they fought and they died in this war.
 We would like to thank you on behalf of the Commission for coming in front of the Commission and we guarantee that the Commission will look upon your requests and even if the President has done something or even if he hasn't done anything, but you have to know that your brothers are amongst those who fought for this country.
 They fought for the freedom of this country.  We would like to thank you very much and we would like you to take your seats now, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duncan Village — 1996-09-23

BONGANI FINCA: Any question?  There are no other questions.  I wish to thank the three of you Ms Zenzisi, Ms Mxoli and Ms Ngcaka.  I thank you for giving a full picture to this Commission of this painful incident and the manner in which your relatives were killed and according to your statements you say they were killed by soldiers and the police.
 We thank you for giving us this full picture because it is the aim of this Commission that we should call before this Commission the head of the police as well as the heads of the soldiers to give their side of the story so if we have incidents of this nature, we are going to present them before them and to find out from them what actually happened.
 We thank you for the contribution that your relatives have made and also the struggle that the people of Duncan Village participated in which has made Duncan Village to be well known in the whole of the Republic of South Africa because of its contribution to the struggle, fighting of the human rights.
 We also listened to your requests as presented before this Commission with the hope that this Commission is going to look into them.  I would also like to explain that this Commission at this - at the point it will have to give its report to the President of this country and it will be the President and his Cabinet that will make the decision as 
DUNCAN VILLAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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what to be done.
 I am certain that the death of your relatives and then there is no compensation thereafter, will not be acceptable in the whole of South Africa.
 We therefore hope that, according to the conditions and the proposals of this Commission there will be perhaps something that will be done here in Duncan Village which will serve as a commemoration to the people of Duncan Village on behalf of  those who gave their lives during the struggle.
 So it is important that you should give your request to this Commission and the Commission will forward them to the President.
 We thank all of you for coming forward to this Commission and all you have said to us will be taken note of and will be forwarded to the President.
 You can now go back to your seats, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-07

JOYCE NOMVUYA MSISAZWE: Mrs Msisazwe, you have listened to a number of other witnesses, and you will know that it is our practice to ask one of the Commissioners to ask you questions to help you tell that story.  This afternoon I  will be doing that, and I would be very glad to know, first of all, who you are, where you're living, and something of your background.  Thank you.

WITNESS:   Good afternoon.  I was born in Kokstad.  My maiden surname - I am from Mantolweni.  I was born at home.  My mother was not married so I am Mkhize, my surname is Mkhize.  From there I came to Durban.  I got married.  I am married to the Dlamini, where I gave birth to three children.  The boys their names were Sipho, Musawenkosi, and Khumbulani.  Khumbulani was my last-born.

JOYCE NOMVUYA MSISAZWE: Thank you very much.  It always helps just to know a little bit about who you are, and I know that it is very distressing, so there's no hurry at all.  Just take your time and we'll wait for you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-08

CHAIRPERSON: Dear friends, thank you very much for coming and exposing your anguish and your pain.  Yesterday we heard from another family who the end result of their request was much the same as yours, and especially the last statement that you read, and I greeted Phoenix, and she is beautiful.  Would you like to stand?  Thank you very much.  There isn't a great deal often that you can say that doesn't seem facile.  I mean in the face of anguish and pain.  It's such a deeply personal and intimate thing, and when anyone outside of that circle of pain speaks then you sound almost like a Job's comforter, it being easy on a full stomach to praise fasting.  But I would hope you have a sense of people being supportive.

WITNESS:   Oh, we do have that, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the community, our society which has gone through hell, somehow we are being borne up by the love and the prayers of so many whom you do not know.  And of course you will be aware too that very many, certainly the majority of the people of this country would look on your daughter as one of the heroines of the struggle that has helped to bring about what we now see and experience.   And you say you would like a memorial so that people would remember why she died.

WITNESS:   I just want to say that she died for love of people.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very, very much, and God bless you.

WITNESS:  Thank you.  May I just say something?  Sorry.  When the ANC was elected to power it was a sort of very mixed thing for us.  We were very excited and pleased that the changes were happening in the country, but it was terrible that Jackie and Joe weren't there, that they had lost their lives for it.  So in a way it's amazing that today the new Constitution is being signed, the day that we're having a chance to tell this story.  Ja, it's just very fitting.  It's great.  Thank you very much indeed.

DR BORAINE: First let me say to you how very grateful we are to you for coming here today.  You've come from a long way.  it's not an easy thing.  You have gone through much pain.  You are going to be telling us the story of the death of someone whose name became a household word in South Africa.  His name was James Moeketse Siphe, but he was known by many as Stompie, and you must be carrying within your own heart and mind a great deal of distress.  I am going to ask you please if you will stand so that you can take the oath.

JOYCE MANANKI SIPHE: (Sworn, States)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Will you please be seated.  Mrs Siphe, when you tell your story Mr Lax, who is sitting ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 5)

MR LAX: (Incomplete) ... about this painful event in your life.  Could you please, by way of starting, just tell us a little bit about your son, about your family, about the things that he did, so we can get a picture of him and of your family.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-08

MR LEWEN: Mama Jokweni, I would like to say thank you very much for that testimony.  You keep complaining about not being able to remember, but what you have remembered, and what you have given us, I think is probably one of the finest and most eloquent tributes to those people you call your children.  And I feel that on my behalf it would be disrespectful for me, as one of the younger men, to ask any further questions.  I would prefer to hand over to the Archbishop.  Thank you.

MR LEWEN: Mama, we have listened to you.  There are no people who would like to ask any questions, but they are very grateful that there are people like you who have tried, through the pain that they have gone through, and being tortured, who have also helped us to reach the stage where we are today, that today we have got a government which is ours, which was chosen by us.  Thank you very much.

WITNESS:  I've got a question to ask.  I've got a question to ask.  The question I would like to know I would like to ask from Baba P W Botha, because he is still alive, because in 1987 he was the one who was still ruling.  If you could speak to him, you as the Commission, that as an old woman like that where will my coffin come from, because they have destroyed my house?  I am living in a shack.

MR LEWEN: We thank you, Mama.  As a Commission that has been established by the President of this country there are things we are going to pass on to him and tell him what are the people's wishes.  Maybe he is going to go and speak to that old friend PWB, we don't know.  We are going to pass on your wishes to Madiba.

WITNESS:   I really am requesting you.  I am not satisfied.  Even Samson got his eyes gouged out.  These people's eyes must be gouged out.

MR LEWEN: Thank you, Mama.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-10

WITNESS:   I would really like the Commission to investigate how my parents died, because I really do not have any information.  I would just come and I found these things having happened.  I would like to find out where is Bridget so that she can explain and together who are other people in the party so that we can ask why didn't they show us the place where Nje died.  Even the company, if I could establish what happened from the company about these funds, because the company he was working for it's here and still working with SACTU.

MR DLAMINI: And the police?  Did you report this matter to the police?  Maybe they were investigating this matter and we could follow up with them.

WITNESS:   I didn't contact the police as far as Nje was concerned, because I cannot explain that.  Maybe because the way I was harassed I took no steps because the whole thing I was afraid of.  I thought if I took any step I shouldn't be followed by an enemy.  I just left things as they are.  I didn't investigate.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you very much, Bongikile, by giving us all the information.  You've been courageous to give this clear story.  I will give over this to the chair.

MR DLAMINI: /CHAIRMAN

MR DLAMINI: 21A/18

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sisi.  Are there people with questions?  We thank you very much that you were able to come here to come and reveal all these painful things and your painful experience you've gone through after such a long time.  We hope that with the little powers that we have we might be able to assist you to investigate and establish what actually happened when your mother was burned and also the time when your brother died.  We will try by all means at our disposal.  We ask God to be with you and God to strengthen you and God to bless you and God to give you strength.

WITNESS:   Another thing I'd like to request that, as a person who is no longer working - since 1992 I haven't been working - if there could be no way - I'm not forcing issues - if I could just get a job, because I do sewing, but I do have children who are still at school.  One is doing matric, and I would like my child to conclude the studies.  There is nothing that I can do.  If I can be employed somewhere.  I'm not going to wait for any hand-outs.  If I could just get some jobs that I can do and support my family with.  Even those who have left me behind would rest if they know that I'm working for myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: /CHAIRMAN

CHAIRPERSON: 21A/21
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-30

WITNESS:   He was not working any more, because he was working for railways, then he got arrested and he was convicted.  I think it was '67, February.  He was working at Point and got arrested, and he was there for 90 days, and he was sentenced, he was sent to Pretoria.   And when I went to Pretoria they told me he was a Leeukop, and they told me when I got there that he was in Cape Town.  And I got back, I came back.  It was a year and three months when I combine all this, and also the period he spent at Point.  He came back.  When he got back he could not work again because he was burned, and I was working, self-employed.

DR RANDERA: Okay, Mrs Mdluli, just take your time.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-10-24

CHAIRPERSON: We are about to conclude.   I don't want to add very much to so much that has already been said by the witnesses themselves.   I do want to underline the devastation that was caused not only on the individuals who were fighting against the system themselves, but on
  their families.   We have listened with real horror to what can happen when children are deprived and abused in this way.   It goes on and on.   And I think one of our major problems in South Africa today in terms of crime, in terms of instability, has its roots in the wretched experience of hundreds and thousands of children.   I think that's probably one of the toughest things that one has to face.   The courage of those who were attacked and even killed is one thing.  To visit that upon the children, is another.
The only final concluding comment I want to make and I am hoping I am not going to be misunderstood, but I take that risk, the overwhelming majority of people who have suffered in this country and who have borne the brunt of the resistance are black South Africans.  Some times it is not a bad thing to remember that here and there were white people, Indian people, coloured people, who dared to pay the price as well in putting this together.   And I think the fact that we had an African woman, a white woman, Indian woman, white man, tell a very similar story, means that in the struggle we were together.   Let's hope, as we build the future, we will be together as well.  Thank you very much.
This session is now adjourned and will resume at 9 o'clock tomorrow, where, I understand, that tomorrow it is going to be women only and that doesn't mean that men can't come, but they will be the people who were bringing their witnesses will be a group of women, who were directly involved in the struggle.   I hope that as many of you as possible will join the commission tomorrow away and thank you again for your attendance.   It is very encouraging.   Thank you.
PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  TO  1996/10/25
/PROCEEDINGS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-10-25

CHAIRPERSON: We know that it is a very painful story that you had to tell us.   And at this time in your life you are still only 22 years old and you have had this experience which has probably left its mark on you for the rest of your life.   I think we are encouraged by the fact that you still want to see justice being done.   And you want to know why and how it has to be you.  We will take cognisance of the names that you have given us.   And we will pass it on to our investigation unit, so that something further can be done about the matter.   We think that you show enormous courage by coming forward and the first step to come forward publicly is always a difficult one.   In the case before yours, I think we were reminded of the fact that often the victim carries the guilt around with them as if it is their fault.  And yet it is not theirs, it is that of the people who did this to them, and we hope that you have managed to shift that burden from your own shoulders.  I do think that from what you have you said we are going to have to ask that some kind of counselling be given you, because the sight of your son is a reminder of the ugly deed that was done to you.   You do, however, say that you love him dearly, and that is why you will not impose upon yourself having to go through the test of finding out who indeed is the father.   It is painful, but it is a reminder to all of us that we can only stop it happening if we begin to hear more women coming forward, because the more society the educated about the brutality of such deeds, the more we can begin to do things to stop it from happening.   Thank you for breaking the silence and coming forward to share your story today.   We salute your courage.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now break for lunch and would like to resume proceedings by 2 o'clock.   I would ask that we remain ... (inaudible) ...
LONG ADJOURNMENT
/ON RESUMPTION
ON RESUMPTION

MARIE ODENDAAL MAGWAZA: (Sworn States)

CHAIRPERSON: ... and we will ask Dr Ramashala to begin.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Good afternoon, Mrs Magwaza.   Is your testimony going to pretty well follow what you have in writing?

WITNESS:   Yes, I can do that, if that won't be too long.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Oh, no, do it the way it is natural for you.  Could we begin you giving a little brief background about yourself and then go ahead and tell your story.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-10-25

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mrs Magwaza, you have every right to appear before the commission, so don't race yourself, you know.  Give yourself a break and just have a drink of water.   And then just proceed normally.   All right.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-10-25

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Take your time.

WITNESS:   Thank you.   I think rejecting me caused him very very deep conflict and grief, because I know that he really loved me.  And he did not treat me harshly.  He was still generous, he would give me vegetables from his garden and so on, but there was this big barrier between us.   He was never again able to respond to me warmly and freely.   My mother also loved me, and she was kind to Maboya and she really tried to treat him as a welcome grandson.   She also could not come to terms with my choice.   Her first commitment, understandably, was to my father, because he was her partner, and because my visits really upset him, I could only make an occasional prearranged visit.   So ... (inaudible) ...

MAPULE RAMASHALA: (END OF SIDE A)

MAPULE RAMASHALA: 4B/0 (START OF SIDE B)
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-10-25

CHAIRPERSON: "For all my comrades we left behind in Angola, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Mozambique ..."

CHAIRPERSON: you know their dead bodies are buried there -

CHAIRPERSON: "... Botswana, Swaziland, France, Moscow, Lesotho, Cuba, and in other places, I bring you the message through Faheema(?) who said, 'When you go home tell them of us and say, for your tomorrow we gave our today'."

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Do you want me to read that last portion again?

CHAIRPERSON: "When you go home tell them of us and say, 'For your tomorrow we gave our today'."

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
/CHAIRMAN

CHAIRPERSON: I think today has been a very special day for us.   We have heard the stories of women ranging from 1960 right up until very very recently.   And the sadness is that in this particular province, the violence still continues.  And women still bear the effect of that violence.   The women who have come here today have come here very - with so much humility and with so much strength, that they put some of us to shame and all we can say is that the experience has been a very very moving one.   And it is on this kind of story that we have built South Africa.  It was yesterday's todays which have made the future we have today and we remember those who did not come back, those who have died, and those whose stories have not, in fact, been told.   Many people thought the Spuiker van Wyk's, the General van den Berg's, they never thought that this day would come when they might have to be accountable for what they have done.   The day has arrived, and the time is now for them to come forward.  And if they don't do it, someone else will come forward to tell the story of what they have done.   We would like to thank all of you who have shared this day with us.  We know it has been a long one, but we are very grateful for it and very humbled.  We thank you for having participated in it with us, and for all those who have contributed to making it happen.   We now end this session of the special hearing on women, and we would like to call upon those women who have not yet come forward to do so, and we remember those who have died and we would ask you to observe a special moment of silence before we end the day's proceedings.
/TRANSCRIBER'S
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-10-24

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

DR MEER: But then there are interpretations.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

DR MEER: And,  one cannot claim the interpretations to be part of the truth, although these interpretations are made with every conceivable integrity.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much indeed, Dr Meer.    Dr Meer, the story you will tell is the story of attempted assassination, of continued harassment over a long period of time for you and your family and friends, but you are going to tell that story in your own words, and Mr Lister, we always ask one of the panel to assist in the facilitation, and he is going to take over from me now, and I hand over to him and of course, especially to you.    Thank you.

MR LISTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.    Dr Meer, just for the benefit of those people in the audience who don't know you - and there can't be very many people here today who don't know you.    For the benefit of the television audience and also just for the record, before you start your story, which is a story as Dr Bruin has said of harassment between 1952 and 1985.
Can you just tell us something about who you are.    The work that you have done, and why you feel that you became a target for the harassment attacks that you were subjected to.    And then lead us on to what happened to you for that - the period that has been mentioned.

DR MEER: My name is Fatima Meer.    I am a retired sociologist.    I run the Institute for Black Research, which is involved in research and writing.    I came under the focus of the Nationalist Government as far back as the 1950's.    I was banned, and detained without trial.    An attempt was made at assassinating me.    I have survived these events.    My family was also involved - my husband and my son.

MR LISTER: Sorry, thank you.

DR MEER: Ja.

MR LISTER: I'm going to really leave it to you to tell us the story that you want to tell us - in your own words ...    [intervention]

DR MEER: Ja.

MR LISTER: About, as I  say, starting chronologically in the, in the 50's ...    [intervention]

DR MEER: Yes.

MR LISTER: And filling us in from time to time as to why you felt you became the subject of these attacks.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-10-24

<UNKNOWN>: Dr Meer, can I on behalf of the Commission thank you for coming.    I think its of enormous assistance to the Commission to have people come and to paint a picture of what those days were really like.    And you and so many others have taken us back and reminded us that the price of freedom was very high.
That  you know one almost forgets about banning orders.    Some young people today, black and white, cannot believe that these things actually happened, and it's good to be reminded so that we don't make the same mistakes again, and I am grateful to you for sketching that as well as sharing with us some of the trauma that you yourself experienced.
The Commission's task is overwhelming.    It is witnesses like you who make it just a little easier, and we are very grateful.    Thank you very much.

DR MEER: Thank you.