Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether she's present?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I am not aware if she's present or not, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she notified?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may respond?  We requested that these application forms be supplemented because they were vague also in terms of what specifically the applicant was applying for, the information regarding the assault is information that surfaced only today so unfortunately there was no notification in that regard.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Okay, we're still on the murder of Mr ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry could I just interrupt you?  You're appearing on behalf of the families.  Are they opposing the amnesty applications?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes they are indeed opposing the applications.

ADV DE JAGER: On what basis an with what do they disagree so that we could focus on that and see whether we could solve that problem?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the objection is basically twofold and firstly it is that the murders were not committed with a political motive or for a political motive and secondly that there is no full disclosure of the relevant facts.

ADV DE JAGER: But is it common cause that what one can call a crowd of about 500 people approached the homes of the deceased and that they were killed in a manner testified?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, that is definitely not in dispute although my instructions are because it was dark, we cannot put an estimation on the amount of people but obviously then it can also not be disputed but the rest of the facts, as you put it now are not in dispute.

ADV DE JAGER: If a crowd of about 500 or say 200 or whatever, a large section of the community, took part in the assassination, what was the reason for that if it wasn't political?  Could it have been that it was only to get rid of somebody who was not popular and who was perceived to be a witch without being politics at all?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes that is in fact my instructions that the killing of these people was not for political reasons but because they were perhaps identified as witches and put on the list as it was advertised or testified.  The reasons for that was eradication of witchcraft for some other reason basically for the reason that the community felt that witches were bad at that stage and it had nothing to do with political motivation or to make the government or the country ungovernable at the time.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr van Rensburg, I think I understand the objection that it was rather a venture to eradicate witchcraft rather than any political motive.  Can't we concentrate on that?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we will do that.
	Can we just turn to the murder of Mr Madadzhe then?  You testified that you were in fact the leader or the chairman at the meeting that was held earlier that day, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is it fair to assume that you were also in control of the proceedings that happened after the meeting?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes it would be fair.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So it was you that decided which houses should be visited in which order?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: No, it's not myself that was being said by people who were in the meeting.  In case of Chineko Simete, he was identified by a certain person called Rexin Maurousi.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I'm not talking about putting the names on the list, I'm talking about the events that followed after the meeting and the sequence of events.  Who decided what sequence of events to follow?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: As a chairperson on that day, it's true I was reading the names as they appear on the list from the first one.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And when you arrived at the old lady's hut, the one that you were eventually convicted of assaulting, you led the interrogation, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And when you arrived at the deceased, Madadzhe's house, you also asked if he is present, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, let's follow on then from that time.  What happened after you shouted or asked if he is present, can you just tell us what happened?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: But I think we didn't ask because they were asleep, I think what happened is that we broke the window in the hut in which they used to sleep with this old lady and then we dragged him out, it's that what happened on that day.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So you participated in dragging him out of his hut, is that correct?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: No, I participated in assaulting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So why do you say "we" dragged him out of the hut?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I'm saying it in that on that day I was not alone, so we were many, that is why I'm saying we dragged him out.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What were you doing, you yourself doing when the people dragged him out of the hut?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: At that time while she was being dragged outside the house I was standing outside waiting to interrogate her since I was intending to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, when you get to a convenient stage, will you just indicate?

ADV DE JAGER: Are we now talking about Mr Madadzhe or are we talking about a female?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, we're talking about Mr Madadzhe.

ADV DE JAGER: It's been interpreted as while she was dragged out.  Are you referring to a woman or a man?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: On that day we dragged out a male person.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it was Mr Madadzhe?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes that is correct, it's Mr Madadzhe.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay and what did you ask from him, you said you interrogated him.  What did you want to know from him?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: While he was dragged out I'm the person who asked him the first question.  The first question which I've asked him seeing that he was on the list of the people who were supposed to be killed, I asked her who are the other people he committed witchcraft with.  He said no, he committed witchcraft alone and he said burnt me with my basket which was fully of muti or medicine.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Would you just please repeat the last part of your question regarding the muti, I didn't follow that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I asked him to tell me the other person, they practised witchcraft together.  On that day he said he practised witchcraft being alone and he said if you want to kill him we must kill him together with his basket which was full of bottles which was containing muti or medicine.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you see that basket there at his hut?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I'm the person who go and fetch it after mentioning that we must burn him with it since he was saying he must be burnt with it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Where did you fetch it from?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It was in that room from which he was dragged out of.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes and after you fetched the basket of muti, what did you do then?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I took the basket, then when I was reaching him I realised that he was dead so he was dragged to the house of that boy who is wearing a white shirt behind you there and then I threw that basket inside that house which was burnt with the deceased inside.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you now saying that at the time when the deceased was killed you were not even there?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: While he being killed I was there but I just hit him four times and then I went into the hut to take the basket which he was saying he must be killed with it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Who lit the fire.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Who lit the fire on that day is the fifth suspect who is ...(indistinct) Marausi.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you assist to drag ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The interpreters cannot hear, the speaker's mike is not on.