Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-16

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Well, we were armed.  The Commander had said that we should be armed so that if the plan doesn't go accordingly or if any other situation arises, so he said I was going to collect the firearms before the incident, so I did so and we then proceeded to the factory.

UNKNOWN: So it was just the three of you?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Tell us who was armed with what?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: There were two firearms and a knife.  I took one firearm and Andries Ntjali also took the other firearm.  Bongnkosi Zulu carried the knife.

UNKNOWN: Did you know if Ntjali was capable of using the firearm?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Please repeat that.

UNKNOWN: Did you know if Ntjali could use a firearm?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No, I did not have that knowledge.

UNKNOWN: Did he say to you he was able to handle a firearm?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No.

UNKNOWN: Did you tell him how he should use the firearm?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I did tell him or show him how to pull the trigger and the firearm was a simple one and in any case it was not our intention to shoot at them, we had intended just to frighten them by pointing the firearms at them, so there was really not need for extensive training and even myself, I did not have extensive training with regards to firearms.  The aim of having those firearms was just to frighten them.

ADV BOSMAN: But were the firearms loaded?  Were there bullets in the firearms?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, there were.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions at this stage.

ADV BOSMAN: If I may.  Mr Hlongwane, do you know of any particular incidents of violence between members of the ANC and IFP at the time?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, there were many incidents that occurred before this act.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you give us names of ANC people who were killed or injured?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: One was Mali Nzimande, Ncede, some were not even residents of the area because some would rent property because they worked in the firms around there.  Another one was Bongani.  I would be able to remember more if I get opportunity to do so.

ADV BOSMAN: Was there anybody particularly close to you or with whom you were very friendly, that was killed before this incident?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No, there was no one who was related or close to me.  It was just people from the area.

ADV BOSMAN: Who identified this Natal Luggage Factory as the target?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: It was Msheshe Nzimande.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know anybody who worked there?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you work at the time?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, I did.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you work?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: CI Park Home, it was a caravan making factory.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it in the vicinity?  Was this also at Peters, near this factory?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes it was at Peters.

ADV BOSMAN: So you knew the factory?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, I knew the factory.

ADV BOSMAN: And Ntjali and Zulu, did they not work at the factory?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No.

ADV BOSMAN: And you say you were arrested in Peters, is that where the factory is?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And now where is eZakheni in relation to Peters?  Were you on the way to eZakheni, or on which road were you when you were arrested?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No, we were not a route towards eZakheni, but we were just on the veld.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last, you were just on the?

INTERPRETER: He said they were on the veld, on their way to hide.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you not on your way to take the money to Nzimande?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No, we were still far from there.  The route that we took was not towards the township, we were just headed towards a forest-like area, that was before we even went to Mr Nzimande.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you intend taking the money to Nzimande?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: After that incident, on the same day, we would have taken the money.

ADV BOSMAN: Where was the money when the police arrested you?  On your person?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, it was in our possession at the time, but we got involved in a gun fight with the police so the money was left there at the veld.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, no further questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you actually chased after you robbed this vehicle?  Were you chased by the security guards?

ADV BOSMAN: No, they did not chase us, they just approached us on the way.  At the time we thought that maybe we had been successful and the police just emerged from nowhere and that's when we started fleeing.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you ran into this veld, to go and hide?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, we were in that area.  That area was bushy.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you fled into the veld, you were trying to get away from the police?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: We were just trying to hide ourselves, get away from the scene.  We only started running when the police approached, that is when we started running, but at the time when we left the scene we were just trying to get away from the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you thought that your robbery was successful and then you saw the police and you tried to run away from the police and you ran into the veld?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you tried to hide in the veld there from the police and then they arrested you with the money still in some or other briefcase?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, we were running from the police and the money was left there on the spot.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in a briefcase?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, it was a leather bag that looked like a briefcase.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had any time to open this briefcase or leather bag before the police got you and arrested you?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, we could see the money because there was no lock on the case, it's not that we had opened it, but as we were running, the case had become open.

CHAIRPERSON: You could see inside the container that there was money in there?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, we could see because we could not control the handle, it would open at intervals when we were running.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the police got you after one of you dropped the bag?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, we left the bag as we were being chased by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Harkoo, re-examination?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Hlongwane, you were asked:  "Did you tell Mr Ntjali how to use the firearm?" and your answer was that the firearm was a simple one.  My question is that, did you think he was in a position to use the firearm as it was, or did you think that he required any further training?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: As I mentioned before, there was no important role that was going to be played by the gun except to frighten the people because that was the information that we had, that we were not going to use it, but just to frighten the people.

UNKNOWN: If these people shot at you, what were you going to do?  Were you not going to fire back?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: We had been informed that those people were unarmed so when we had discussions with my colleagues, we did not expect them to be armed, so our discussion centred around just pointing them with the firearms, just to frighten them.

UNKNOWN: By colleagues, you mean Ntjali and Zulu?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: So they had some background information about the place you were going to attack?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, because I did explain to them, we were going to attack.  I gave them the name of the factory, so they recognised the name.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  You mentioned just now that the first time that you knew about the incident or that you planned the incident, was sometime in December 1991.  At that point in time, were you a member of the SDU or were you just an ordinary member of the ANC?