Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: (sworn in)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Hanif?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Arch.  Miss Dlamini we have a copy of your statement which was given to the various attorneys, so I won't go into great detail with you.  In your statement you said that your brother, Thole Dlamini, joined the Mandela United Football Club shortly after it was set up, is this correct?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR VALLY: You say that the club played football and Winnie Mandela attended a number of matches where she also spoke to club members.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Please repeat your question.

MR VALLY: You say that Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela attended a number of matches where she also spoke to club members?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us about your relationship with "Shakes"?  Firstly, will you tell us did you have a relationship with a person called "Shakes"?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, there was a relationship.

MR VALLY: What was his real name?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Johannes Tau.

MR VALLY: Was there any confrontation with Mrs Madikizela- Mandela about your relationship with Mr Tau?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I did not understand your question.

MR VALLY: I will repeat the question.  Was there any confrontation with Mrs Madikizela Mandela in connection with your relationship with Mr Tau?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, there was.

MR VALLY: Can you explain to us in your own words what this confrontation was about?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I was in love with "Shakes" and there was somebody who told Winnie Mandela that I was in love with Shakes, and Shakes came to my house with Winnie and told me that they were there with regards to my matter.  Winnie (indistinct) she wanted your brother and that's when I understood.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any help you wonderful technicians can give maybe to increase the volume a little bit, please. Thank you very much.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I cannot speak louder.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able - yes, thank you.

MR VALLY: Let me just rephrase the question.  You state in your statement to us that Shakes had told you about a certain incident that had taken place between him and Mrs Madikizela Mandela Can you very briefly relate this to us?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Shakes told me that, as he was Winnie Mandela's driver, Winnie would sleep in another room and Shakes in the dining room, and she will leave the bedroom, the other room to him, and go to him where he will be sleeping.

MR VALLY: You say also in your statement that there was a confrontation between yourself, and I am talking about the first confrontation on this issue, between yourself and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela when Mrs Madikizela-Mandela discovered your relationship with Shakes.  Can you please tell us about this?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Somebody who was a member of the football club told her that Shakes and myself have an affair or were in love.

MR VALLY: And what happened after this?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: After that Winnie came to my house with Shakes as if they were coming to look for Thole and I told them that Thole was not in, he was at a hall and then Shakes - and ask to be escorted to where Thole was, that hall.  And when we got there we got inside in the microbus and said to Shakes, Shakes drive the car and take it home to the house that was burnt.  And when we got there, we were standing outside, outside the premises and said to Shakes, Shakes leave the steering wheel and go to the passenger seat.  And Shakes asked - and asked as to what Shakes was with me, or what was existing between the two of us and asked me as well if there was any relationship.  I told her that he's the only person I know, and she said don't make me a fool because I've already heard and I know that you are in love and I said no, we are not in love.  And she asked me as to who my boyfriend was and I told her about Sipho from Meadowlands.

MR VALLY: What happened thereafter?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: After that Winnie herself started assaulting me with claps and fists all around my body, and I was three months pregnant at the time by Shakes.

MR VALLY: Did you have any subsequent confrontation with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, thereafter she came to my place looking for me, that is herself personally, together with the members of the football club, and these members came to call me but my mother said I was not in and they went to fetch Flora Ikaneng at Mhlongo's place, it's a shebeen, and they said - she said they must go to my sister's place because she was looking for me and my mother had told her that I wasn't there.
 Flora and Winnie went to Meadowlands, they brought Lindiwe back and Lindiwe came to knock at my place and when they got there I was asleep and she spoke to my mother and said they wanted to see me.  And my mother asked as to where they were taking me to. Winnie said no, I'll bring her back just now,  I just need to talk to her.  And my mother said, please bring my child back, do not kill her, and Winnie answered that they would take me back.
 We went around looking for Shakes but we couldn't get hold of Shakes. We even went to his friend's place, but we couldn't get hold of him, and we proceeded to Diepkloof, that is Winnie Mandela's house.  And when we got to Winnie's house, Winnie personally said to me, "Guys, see what you are going to do with this one because she doesn't want to speak the truth", referring to the Football Club members.  They started assaulting me and kicking me in accordance with Winnie's instructions and I think this continued for about five hours. And Zinzi came and asked as to what was happening and she pleaded with them to stop assaulting me, and they said, "Mother, or Mummy, said we should assault her", because that's how they referred to her.  And Zinzi went to her mother to try and find out as to why these guys were assaulting me, and Zinzi said I should go into the bathroom to clean myself up.  I was bleeding through my nose as well as my mouth.  And Jerry Richardson came in together with Morgan and she said ,"Jerry and Morgan take this woman to her place," and they duly took me to my place.  When we got to my place my mother and I went to Dudu Xele.  My mother wanted to get some advice from Dudu Xele as to what to do under the circumstances.  We were sent to Mrs Sisulu.  When we got to Mrs Sisulu's place we found that the gates were locked because it was at night.  We went there the following morning and Mrs Sisulu was not available. She had gone to Cape Town and when we came back we told Dudu that Mrs Sisulu was not available as she was in Cape Town.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us when this happened?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: We got back with my mother, we went home.  During the day I was so much in pain, my whole body was in pain, and I could not even go to the clinic because I was scared to even leave the house.  And Thole came in.  I told Thole that I was going to the police station to open a docket for Winnie because she had assaulted me.  And Thole said, please do not go because we will lose shelter and our house will be set alight.  And I said, and asked Thole what should we do therefore because I am so much in pain, and Thole said just leave this alone, we'll see what we do.
 After that, around July, I went to book at the Bara Hospital and I did not tell the doctors as well that I was assaulted and I got injured as I was pregnant.  I was scared to release this kind of information.

MR VALLY: Can you give us an idea of when, in terms of the date, which year, which month this happened?