Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-08

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think Mr Peni ought to, on oath, confirm the contents of that affidavit.

NTOMBEKO AMBROSEPENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Your counsel has read out your affidavit, I am going to ask you now whetheryou confirm the contents of that affidavit?

MR PENI: YesI do confirm.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Ntombeko on the day in question youthrew stones at Amy Biehl and you contributed to her death, can you tell thisCommittee why you threw stones at her and why you caused her death?

MR PENI: Theaims of PASO was to bring back the African land to the African people.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman unfortunately I didn't hear the answer.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Can I assist in that regard?

MR PENI: Theaim was to bring back the African land to the African people.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Ntombeko Amy Biehl was a single White female, how wereyou going to achieve your stated political objectives by causing her death?

MR PENI: Itis not the sex that we considered, we just considered that she was a White personbecause the African land was being ruled by a small minority of White people.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Ntombeko you hear evidence during the criminal trial that the three passengerswho were in the car with Amy testifying that when they got out of the car theyimplored people in the crowd not to harm her or cause her further harm becauseshe was what they called a "comrade", did you hear this?

MR PENI: Idid not hear of this.

NORMAN ARENDSE: If you did hear from the passengers that she was also a comrade that day wouldyou have acted any differently?

MR PENI: Idon't think so.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you elaborate?

MR PENI: Atthe time we were in very high spirits and the White people were oppressive,we had no mercy on the White people. A White person was a White person to oureyes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: There was also evidence during the criminal trial that goods belonging to eitherAmy or to the passengers in the car, that they were taken from Amy or from thepassengers, do you know anything about that?

MR PENI: Ido not know of these goods.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you elaborate for this Committee on your understanding of the slogan "oneSettler one bullet"? Is it not only confined to the use of firearmsor does it mean anything else to you?

MR PENI: One Settler, one bullet was directed towards the White people. Wejust needed weapons to attack, it did not need to be a firearm, whatever youcould use you utilised.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now some people might say or allege that the killing of Amy Biehl that day wasa senseless act of mob violence, I want you to comment on that.

MR PENI: Thereis no such because even where we were from we were from a re-launch of PASO,where PASO was given instructions to prepare the land for the APLA people, forthe operations of APLA.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Ntombeko how do you feel today about what happened and what you specificallydid that day?

MR PENI: Ifeel sorry and very down-hearted especially today realising the contributionAmy Biehl played in the struggle. When I look closely at what I did I realisethat it was bad. I took part in killing someone that we could have used to achieveour own aims. Amy was one of the people who could have, in an internationalsense, worked for our country so that the world knows what's going on in SouthAfrica, so that the government of the day would not get support, sanctions so-to-speak.
	I ask Amy's parents,Amy's friends and relatives, I ask them to forgive me. Just to hear that theyhave forgiven me would mean a great deal to me. For me it would be startinga new life. I have led an abnormal life under the struggle in South Africa.I do not think I would commit such an act again because right now the situationin South Africa is different. I ask for forgiveness and I am sorry.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Should you be granted amnesty what are your plans?

MR PENI: Tofinish my matric because it's difficult to do so in prison. I would like tocontinue with my studies and be what I have always intended to be in life withoutpolitics.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONSBY ADV ARENDSE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink are there questions you wish to put to this applicant.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes, yes thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Mr Peni, in August 1993 you must have been aware that constitutionalnegotiations between the various political parties were virtually at an endand peace was coming to the land.

MR PENI: YesI was aware, however, the constitution of my party, the PAC, was not totallyin line with that.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: In paragraph 5.1 of the opening statement made by your counsel you indicated,or he indicated, and presumably on your instructions, that the PAC affiliateorganisations were working together with one or two of the ANC affiliate organisations,is that correct?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman if I may just interject, perhaps if ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: I had not interpreted the question to the applicant yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes will you please interpret that to the applicant first.

MR PENI: Itis so.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: In other words in your township, in your area, there was no specific rivalrybetween African National Congress affiliates and Pan Africanist organisationaffiliates, is that correct?

MR PENI: Yesthey worked together.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: And were aware of the fact that there were a number of White youths who weremembers of COSAS?

MR PENI: Iwas not aware of that.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Were you aware that there might have been White members of the South AfricanDemocratic Teachers Union?

MR PENI: Ionly knew Black members.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I am not asking whether you only knew Black members I am asking you whetheryou knew that White people might have been members?

MR PENI: Idid not know.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you know Mr Joe Slovo by sight or by reputation?

MR PENI: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you know Mr Ronnie Kasrils by sight or by reputation?

MR PENI: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you know that they were both prominent members of the African National Congress?

MR PENI: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you know there were many other White people who were members of the AfricanNational Congress?

MR PENI: Ido not know about that.

MR PENI: Wellnow you were a leading light in your organisation, I presume you kept abreastof politics in general?

MR PENI: Areyou stating or are you asking a question?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I am asking you a question. You, according to the information in front of me,you were a leading light in your organisation and you must have had a generalawareness of political personalities and political organisations throughoutthe country.

MR PENI: Yesthat is so.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes. So you must have been aware that there were more than just two White peoplewho were members of the African National Congress?

MR PENI: Yesbut they are confined to their own areas.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes, but the point is you knew there were White people who were members of organisationswith whom you were then in alliance.

MR PENI: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Had Mr Joe Slovo been in the township that afternoon would you have also stabbedand stoned and killed him?

MR PENI: NoI would not have.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Why not?

MR PENI: Everybodyknew him.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes, but you see I ask that because in answer to your counsel you said thathad you known that Amy Biehl was a comrade you probably wouldn't have behavedany differently. In other words notwithstanding the fact that you were awarethat she was a comrade you would have taken part in her killing.

MR PENI: Couldyou please repeat that Sir.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: In answer to your counsel at this inquiry you told the Committee that had youbeen aware of the fact that Amy Biehl had been a comrade you would nonethelessnot have acted any differently. In other words you would have taken part inher murder.

MR PENI: Areyou stating or are you asking a question?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I am asking you a question.