Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: So these names and the entries on this page, the second page, did they have anything to do with the incidents of the 24th?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were also issued by her on that same day.

CHAIRPERSON: And to your knowledge were these issued within the ordinary course of events?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: No they were issued at some stage during the morning after I issued the first lot of guns, I asked her to take over the armoury so I could go and help assess the situation downstairs.  She took over that responsibility because she was one of the people who had responsibility over the armoury.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now you see there's a date, the 24th March about the middle of that page, this is the second page and then there are 25 rounds and 50 rounds and so on?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I think that's the confusion which I tried to say - this is two pages next to it that's the continuation of these - upper part.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I beg your pardon, yes.
	Alright, so now those dates, those rounds of ammunition, they deal with the firearms that were issued that morning?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: No, that's not correct.  I think if you look at the big copy which they gave me, you will better understand, these two pages come together in the book, the book runs like this.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: So they run right across.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, so then the record of these rounds RDS - is that rounds of ammunition?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And were they issued by you?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: On the last eight people yes, that's all a box, we gave them each boxes of ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Then what is supposed to be the writing in the last column on that page?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Can you just repeat, I'm not clear, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: The last column on the right hand side, what is that supposed to record?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Units.  Which he belonged to - Mac Maharaj Unit, President's Unit, Department of Information - we had units which looked after the V.I.P.'s as we call them - so it recorded as Popo's Unit which is Popo Molefe's unit, J.S. would be Joe Slovo's Unit, their's someone in admin, Joe Modise's Unit, Joe Ntlhantlha's Unit that's how we would issue it.

CHAIRPERSON: And the last name?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think it's personnel and training - the Unit of personnel and training under there.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your writing?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's my writing.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is the significance of all this scratching out that you see on that page?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were done when the guns were brought back, I think, I'm not clear but I think that's how they were done because we then - after this we had to form a new register which we also handed in to the Attorney General because we could not continue and we had to rewrite all the things in a new register.  So as we wrote them over we scratched them.

CHAIRPERSON: After the shooting was all over to whom were these guns returned?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: In the process some to me, some to other members who were in charge of the process of the armoury and Commission Radu and Sibogone Kubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a reference here in this schedule of guns any reference to an AK47 being handed out?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I never dealt with any illegal guns, my responsibility ended with the guns registered in the names of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear that, what did you say?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I was only responsible for guns licensed in the name of the ANC and it did not include any AK47s.

CHAIRPERSON: So the AK47 that we heard about that had been used, that was not given out by you?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The late Commissioner Radu was responsible for those firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just one question, Mr Kruser, it might just be a matter of not hearing you clearly and I just wanted to clear it up - you spoke about something happening at the I.E.C. and I might have misheard you whether you said the T.E.C.?  I beg your pardon?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I remember it to be the T.E.C. it was in town close to the Carlton Centre the building, I think it was the T.E.C. or I.E.C. I'm not sure but I know the building I just don't recall but I know the building itself.  It was close to the Carlton Centre, just around the corner from the Carlton Centre.

MR LAX: And just remind me, what specifically happened there that had a bearing on your - you raised it as one of the reasons - just give us a - just remind me here?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: We got the report from some of our guys who were in the vicinity that the police were shooting at marchers and the report I got they wanted to attack the building and they were shooting at the marchers - the police shot at the marchers, at the building itself.

MR LAX: That was obviously on the same day?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The morning of that day.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, learned Members of the Committee, the next witness will be the second applicant, Mr Zuma.  Mr Chairman, Mr Zuma's first language is Zulu, he is reasonably fluent in English and in the interests of expedition will testify in English but he may require on odd occasions the assistance of an interpreter.  The Committee's counsel has indicated that such a person is available if necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just hold on please?
	Mr Tipp, this might not perhaps be a convenient time to make a beginning, there's no likelihood of the evidence being finished this afternoon, or even his evidence in chief.  In the circumstances, we would like to make a beginning tomorrow morning with his evidence and can we make it at 9.15?

MR TIPP: Certainly, Mr Chairman, we will be present.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we make a beginning at 9.15 tomorrow?

MR PRETORIUS: We will try our utmost to be here at 9.15, it is just a problem that we are travelling from Pretoria everyday and we will have to leave earlier, but the earlier traffic may catch us, My Lord, but we will try our utmost to be here at 9.15.

CHAIRPERSON: There's a Member of the Committee who bears you out as far as traffic is concerned.  We still start at 9.30 tomorrow morning.  In the meanwhile may I ask that there be a minimum of interruption of our proceedings from your clients.  I don't know what their problems are and I'm sure you're in a better position to articulate their problems and if they have any will you tell me what they're about and things have gone fairly smoothly so far and I would like us to move as quickly as we can without too much interruption.  I will now adjourn and we will resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS