Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-04

ADV PRIOR: On a technical point how much explosive was used in this bomb that you built?  We are not experts like you in explosive devices.  Can you tell us what the explosive material was and how much of it was there?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: This happened ten years ago, I'll be just giving kg's out of my head which tomorrow might be used against me, I'll ask not to give an answer to this.

ADV PRIOR: Alright but do you agree that it was a very powerful device that destroyed to a very large - well completely destroyed the vehicle in which it was placed and it destroyed other vehicles and buildings in the immediate vicinity and - well from an estimate of the aerial photographs at least 30 or 40 metres around it?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: This was part of the mission.  This was part of the mission.

ADV PRIOR: You see I'm asking you these questions because part of the amnesty - the Act, if I may put it that way, also considers questions of gravity and proportionality.  Could you have possibly built a smaller device that would have sent exactly the same message to the Government?  Maybe a device that would not have been so devastating.  Could you have done that?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: What I planned upon is what I carried out.  That was the amount, that's why I even to the extent of reinforcing that amount for the message to reach where I wanted it to reach.

ADV PRIOR: So you wanted the explosive that you were very familiar working with even to have a more devastating effect by using - is it using the gas cylinders?  Is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: The purpose of the gas cylinder was only to reinforce the shock waves.  Where the vehicle was placed the gas waves or the shock waves they were not directed, they were going to, as they did, escape.  That's why I made it sure that where I'm going to place it, it mustn't be a place where civilians are going to be killed, where the message will reach the civilians.

ADV PRIOR: Just one final aspect I need to ask you on.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you something now?  As I understand it from the photographs and what we have been shown and the statements, the car was right opposite a house which was occupied by people?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes it was at the house but based on the reconnaissance that was carried the place was deserted.  After we evaluated all the spots to place the device that was the only suitable place where at that time based on the reconnaissance there was no life to be lost.

ADV PRIOR: You see the evidence yesterday, I think it was Mr Matshididi, said that after the bomb or the car had been parked there - I speak under correction because I'm not sure whether he said he was with Mr Dumakude but my impression was that it was only when he reached the Kombi at Checkers did they hear the sound of the bomb going of and we know that that distance is about two kilometres from where in fact the Ellis Park Stadium is.  I want to ask you, when you activated the bomb did you go with Mr Matshididi to Checkers where you were to rendezvous with the others?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes I did.

ADV PRIOR: Is that your clear recollection that he went with you to Checkers and that was after the bomb had gone off?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: After the bomb has gone off, after I've activated the device.

ADV PRIOR: Yes?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes he did go with me.

ADV PRIOR: And the reason why he was close by to you was that he had to report in case you had been killed or injured in an explosion that had gone off, if there had been an accident for example?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I might be confusing your question, if you say close, how close?

ADV PRIOR: Well you had deployed him in such a position that he could go back and report should you have killed yourself in the explosion but he was certainly close enough for you to meet up with him and then proceed ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well he has said they went to Checkers together hasn't he, Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: He said he wasn't clear on the question, I was trying to explain the question.  But he has answered it.  Mr Chairman, may I just enquire whether there is any question that the victims wish to put?  I've certainly finished my questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman may have to rely on his memory because he was the man who was leading the evidence at the time but I think it only right to say that my note accords with what Mr Prior has said.  You Mr van den Bergh obviously weren't here yesterday, you didn't hear, the note I have of the incident is
"We went to Checkers and met the others.  I heard the sound of the bomb - we heard the sound of the bomb and then went back to Diepkloof."

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman that is my recollection of the evidence.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I just place on record both Mrs Klukas and Mrs Erasmus don't have questions.  Thank you, that is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: You finally get your chance to re-examine.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman I'm not sure till what time this Committee sits?

CHAIRPERSON: Which is just after the normal adjourning time.  If you would prefer to take the adjournment now so you can check up on anything else we would be quite prepared to meet you in that, if you want to finish the evidence?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'd like to take the adjournment just to consider my position.  There are a number of things which hopefully we can clarify and a number of things with the benefit of a good night's sleep we may not have to retroverse.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's try for once if we can to start at nine?  I'm not - there's no blame attaching to you for that.
WITNESS EXCUSED
HEARING ADJOURNS