Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember whether it was before or after I went for training.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before the first count of murder on which you were convicted?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember whether it was before or after my training.

MR BRINK: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: How long was this training?

MR NGCOBO: One month.

CHAIRPERSON: One month?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR BRINK: I want to revert to the death of your mother.  Can you tell the Committee in which ward or district did she live?

MR NGCOBO: She lived in Nkulu in Izingolweni.

MR BRINK: Sorry, could I have that ward again please, if you can spell it.

MR NGCOBO: N k u l u.

MR BRINK: eZingolweni?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR BRINK: Right.  And you were told that Dan Cele was one of those responsible for her death?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  Dan admitted in my presence that he was there.

MR BRINK: Were any other persons known to you, involved in your mother's murder?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, there were others like Steleka, Mshikashika and others.  Others were not killed by me.  Some of them are with me in prison, but they denied any knowledge of this.

MR BRINK: Was Xolani Dhlamini, that is count 2 Mr Chairman, involved to your knowledge in the murder of your mother?

MR NGCOBO: No.

MR BRINK: Was Thokozani Shazi or Jeffrey Ncane or Babazani Shezi, count 3 Mr Chairman, involved?

MR NGCOBO: No.

MR BRINK: Was Thembinkosi Wellington Ngcobo involved?

MR NGCOBO: Thembinkosi was the person who stayed near where I was.  These people were many and I cannot some of the people who were in the list.  They were acting in groups.

MR BRINK: I am giving you the names, and I want you to tell the Committee whether to your knowledge, the names I mention are persons involved in your mother's murder.  That is all I want at this stage.
	We know then that Mr Wellington Ngcobo was not suspected of having been involved in your mother's murder?

MR NGCOBO: No.

MR BRINK: Thomas Blose?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, he was one of those who were involved.

MR BRINK: He was, all right.  Goodwill Mxolisi Cele?

MR NGCOBO: No, that one was not involved.

MR BRINK: Maxwell Zulu, Fana Cele?

MR NGCOBO: No.

MR BRINK: Kehla Mkhize, count 9 Mr Chairman? (Mshikashika)

MR NGCOBO: Yes, he was very much involved.

MR BRINK: Doda Nqxmalo, also known as Doda Nyawaose?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, he was involved.

MR BRINK: So there were about four or five men who had been reported to you as being involved in your mother's murder?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, they were many.  Some of them fled the area and came to Durban.  I cannot recall their names now.  I no longer have a list now and I do not know how I lost it.  Some are in prison with me.

MR BRINK: When the police came to the scene of the crime, that is the crime relating to the murder of your mother, did you mention any of these names as people you might have thought who might have been involved, even though the names hadn't at that stage been given to you?

MR NGCOBO: No.  I did not... I did mention who the people were because they were known.  They used to toyi toyi and celebrate the whole night after the had killed a person, and everybody knew them and knew what they had done.  They were toyi toyiing even near the police station.

MR BRINK: Do you have a copy of your amnesty application available in front of you?

MR NGCOBO: Yes those were my words.  What I said here...

MR BRINK: Let me just read to you what you said and if necessary my colleague can let you have his copy.  In paragraph 10(b) you were asked to provide your justification, thank you Mr (indistinct), you were asked to provide justification regarding the murders which you committed as being associated with a political objective.
	Is the manuscript that follows, your own or was it written for you?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I am the one who wrote that.  Did I say the police wanted to kill them?

CHAIRPERSON: What page are you talking about Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: It is bundle, page 2, Mr Chairman, paragraph 10(b).

MR BRINK: Right, now you say all the cases, I presume you mean by all the cases, all the offences, murders and so on, which I have committed, were in relation to the ANC who had killed my mother as stated by the court witnesses, etc, etc.
	The South African Police had refused to arrest the culprits involved in the killing of my mother, despite my having told them who the culprits were.
	I had to take the law into my own hands, as I feared for my life and knew that the culprits who had killed my mother, wanted to kill me as well.  Do you remember writing that?

MR NGCOBO: Yes I said so.  I had told the police that my mother was killed by the comrades (ANC supporters), and the police wanted me to investigate this, whereas this was their job.

MR BRINK: The South African Police had refused to arrest the culprits involved in the killing of my mother, despite my having told them who the culprits were.

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember whether I mentioned their names.

MR BRINK: Did you name them, did you name them to the Police?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember whether I mentioned the names to them.

MR BRINK: Well you see, if you hadn't told the Police their names, the Police wouldn't have been able to take any steps towards an effective arrest.

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember whether I mentioned the names, as I say. Those police, however, are still stationed at iZingolweni. They are the ones who can say whether I mentioned certain names to them. It was just a coincidence that my mother was killed when violence was going on there. People would still have died even if my mother was not killed.

MR BRINK: Would you have killed Dan Cele had your mother not been killed?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  I was going to kill them because he was an enemy, but it was not going to be in the manner I killed him.  I do not know how I was going to do that, but I was looking for him as much as he was looking for me.

MR BRINK: Killing is killing Mr Ngcobo, whichever way you do it.  You see, I get the impression from your application that this was really revenge killing, or a series of killings, because your mother was unfortunately murdered?

MR NGCOBO: That is not true.  It was not a revenge killing although my mother was killed.  War was going on at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: In the trial court, as I understand the record, you told the Judge that you killed these people because they had killed your mother, that was the reason you gave.

MR NGCOBO: The Commissioner must remember that I was defending myself in the trial case.  I was also helping my counsel so that I could be freed.  It is something else when you are facing a criminal trial.  One even tends to lie in a criminal case.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, how can you acquit yourself if you had told them that you had killed these people because they had killed your mother?

MR NGCOBO: Will you please repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: How can you be defending yourself if you told the Judge that these crimes you committed, were committed because they killed your mother?

MR NGCOBO: That is how I perceived things at that time.  When IFP supporters were killed, nobody got arrested.  I then decided to kill too, because this looked liked a competition because nobody was getting arrested for doing this.  I was only surprised when I got arrested and wondered how it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Was nobody arrested or tried for killing your mother?

MR NGCOBO: I do not recall anybody getting arrested for killing my mother.  Not even one.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words there was never a case for the murder of your mother, there was no case?

MR NGCOBO: No.  Even the person who injured my sister was not arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that at your trial you did not give evidence about the fact that all the killing you have done, was as a result of your enmity for the ANC, that this was political killing, you did not tell this to the Court, is this correct?

MR NGCOBO: Will you please repeat the question?