Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I'm going to try and as I said, I'm very bad in distance and the distance would differ because these people were approaching.  When I said fifteen to twenty metres away from me, I'm referring to if I may say, the front part of the march but they were not - when people charge and attack they are not moving in a straight line that's why it's so difficult.  If you're going to ask me between the front people, amongst them who was more in front than the others, these are things that I can not necessarily respond to.

MR PRETORIUS: I'm merely asking you to give us an indication, I do understand that the one will be one metre forward and ... (indistinct), but if one looks at the shops at the opposite of Shell House, opposite which shop or next to which shop were they when you started shooting.  Can you give us an indication?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Let me again try this.  This is the corner and this is the angle that I'm referring to and this is a line of shops and people are moving from the corner in this direction towards me, in this kind of shape towards me.  Now it's a group of people, as I say it's not a straight line, I can't say this group was opposite this shop because they were somehow spread and there's a dry cleaners there, there's a cobbler shop.  I can't honestly remember some of the shops there but there's a fish and chips if I'm not mistaken, those are the shops that I'm referring to.  They were moving away from the shops towards us and ... (intervention).

MR PRETORIUS: I'm sorry, just to get that clear.  If one looks from the top, if necessary I can show you the photographs which indicate that but if we just get that on record it will not be necessary to burden it with further photographs.  Right on the corner there was at that stage the pharmacy, is that correct, Woburn Pharmacy, that's on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Right next to the pharmacy was the fish and chips shop you just referred to.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: It could be, yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Chairman it seems like if I need to show him the photographs.  He just said it could be but it is a fact so I would just like to show him the photographs to set the ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... (microphone not one)

MR PRETORIUS: The point would just be Mr Chairman that the three shops that he refers to are the three shops at the very top of the corner of King George and Plein Street.  So in other words all three shops that he referred to is at the top of King George and De Villiers Street, that's all the point I want to make.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Yes that is correct.

MR TIPP: Chairperson the witness also referred to the cobblers, I believe, and if one has a look on that photograph, on the photographs that my learned friend is looking at, the cobbler's shop is one shop south of the fish and chip shop towards Plein Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that common cause?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, if I can just refer to my learned friend, if I give him the references then he can see.  Look at photo 5 of the bundle of Mr Du Plessis, number Y2.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Do we have this photographs, does the Committee have those photographs?

MR PRETORIUS: ... (inaudible) do not have it, but I do not want to burden it unnecessarily if we can sort it out and it can just be recorded that those were the shops and it's as easy as that Mr Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes just move along, carry on please.

MR PRETORIUS: You see the dry cleaners and fish and chips shop right next to each other and if you look at the next photo you can see the dry cleaner and cobbler's shop, if you look at photo 15, is actually the same.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure we're not concerned with how the shops were positioned.  We're really concerned about the people that were involved and where they were.

MR PRETORIUS: Now ... (intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Pretorius, for my benefit if you do have a spare copy of the photograph, would you make it available to me please?

MR TIPP: Chairperson if my learned friend needs his copy, I can make mine available.  No there's nothing that you should not be seeing.

MR PRETORIUS: If I may just explain with the photographs in front of the Commissioner, the third last page is a page with a 15 on top of it.  At the bottom photograph one can see the corner, that is where King George and Plein Street is.  It is not in dispute that the pharmacy is right there at the corner.  Just down one can see the fish and chip shop sign at the top hanging down.  So that's the fish and chips shop and that is the pharmacy.  If one then turns back, unfortunately it's not paginated in numbers, referred actually to places and not necessarily to pages.  If one then goes back to the photograph 5 which is about six or so pages from the front - it's a photograph with a Kadet in front of it, one can then to the right where a person is standing, again see the fish and chip shop and immediately to the left is the dry cleaners and one could notice the signs just above the words dry cleaners where it's got the shoes, the keys and the number three in it.  Now if one then just turns to page, or to photograph rather 13, the top reads "Skote King Skoen Winkel" and one can see just on the top photo, on the head of the person there, in front of him, there's exactly the same sings.  So the one entrance shows the dry cleaners and the other entrance shows the cobbler shop, so it's exactly the same actually.

MR TIPP: I'm sorry to do this to you, but if my learned friend would just refer you to photograph number 12, that photograph was taken from the corner where the pharmacy is looking down towards Plein Street and one can see on one photograph all the way through to the cobbler shop.  My learned friend will confirm that, photograph 12.

JUDGE NGCOBO: The top and the bottom, are you referring to the top one?

MR TIPP: And then further down the street one sees the cobbler sign hanging, the orange cobbler sign.

MR PRETORIUS: I do see the photograph, I do see the orange sign but you can't read on it King Cobbler, that's why I showed it from the other side.

SISI KHAMPEPE: We can read it Mr Pretorius.

MR PRETORIUS: You see Mr Beea the person who was then running the fish and chip shop, that is now at the time that the shooting started, he gave evidence at the inquest court and I would just like to refer you to his evidence which makes it quite clear what we say happened there that day in so far as the shooting is concerned.  I refer to page 3538, we start from line 6.

MR PRETORIUS: "What did you see happening immediately the shooting, the first shots were fired?

WITNESS: There was chaos, people just went down towards the floor.

MR PRETORIUS: 		Do I understand then that as the first shots were fired, people fell to the ground and fled?

WITNESS:  Yes".

MR PRETORIUS: At the time you closed  -  well it's not necessary to read any further.  The fact of the matter is that the independent witness who stood right in the shop where the fish and chip shop is, clearly testified that when the first, the very first shots were fired immediately what happened is the people fell down and they fled and I put it to you that is what happened that day.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: It may be independent evidence, but it doesn't mean that that's a fact.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Pretorius what is the name of that witness?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Dias, D-i-a-s.  His full surname is De Silva Dias.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry I didn't take down your answer to that question, what was your answer?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair I'm saying the evidence given may be coming from an independent witness, but it does not necessarily mean that because he's independent, the evidence is factual.

CHAIRPERSON: ...the main point.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I saw something else so I don't agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Yes do carry on.