Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Now, in paragraph 13, he does not mention you by name, but he refers there to assault and torture of detained and/or arrested political activists at the offices of the internal security unit on the 5th floor in Fountain Street, Bloemfontein.  If this refers to the group of 19 people who were arrested in the Ladybrand district and brought to Bloemfontein, my question to you is did you take part in any assault on them or any torturing of them?

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Did you assault or torture any detainee in the building at Fountain Street Mr Mamone?

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Lastly, paragraph 14 at page 148, deals with the arrest of Oupa Makubalo. Can you tell the Committee what you know about that incident.

MR MAMOME: We were in the kitchen, Mr Motsamai came running and he said one of his informer called him,  he identified where Oupa Makubalo hid.  So he requested our help to go and fetch Makubalo.
    He wanted Makubalo because Makubalo killed another informer of his. I was driving that Kombi, we drove to Botchabela ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Just a moment, would you just tell the Committee who were in the Kombi.  Was Mr Motsamai in the Kombi?

MR MAMOME: He was present, he was sitting at the door at the back.

MR VISSER: Alright, and you were driving?

MR MAMOME: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Who else was in the Kombi?

MR MAMOME: Mr Ramosoeu, Mr Morakile - Chairperson, and others, because we came out of the building running, it's impossible to try and identify others.

MR VISSER: You say you don't remember the others. Alright.  You drove the Kombi and where did you go?

MR MAMOME: We drove to a location called Botchabela.

MR VISSER: And, just continue.  Did you drive down a certain street?

MR MAMOME: Yes, but I forgot the name of the street but anyway we arrive at that house.  Mr Makubalo was standing outside and I opened the window, I called him.

MR VISSER: Was he standing alone?

MR MAMOME: He was with other two boys. I called him to come nearer, he was on his way coming. Mr Motsamai opened the door, he went behind the Kombi and he fired a shot.

MR VISSER: And what happened thereafter?

MR MAMOME: Oupa ran, he ran and we chased him and he asked us why were we shooting at him.  I then caught him.

MR VISSER: Did you see or hear or how many times did Mr Motsamai shoot at Oupa Makubalo according to your recollection?

MR MAMOME: I could not count.

MR VISSER: Was it more than once?

MR MAMOME: Yes, he was actually pumping, he was not playing.

MR VISSER: And is it correct that you in fact got hold of Mr Makubalo and you restrained him and arrested him?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you assault Mr Makubalo?

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, I caught him, I did not assault him.

MR VISSER: Where did you then take him?

MR MAMOME: We took him to the police station to the person who was working on Mr Venter's - on Mr Kosi's murder.  I do not remember well, I don't want to lie.

MR VISSER: And did you have anything further to do with Mr Oupa Makubalo?

MR MAMOME: Not at all, Sir, I did not have anything to do with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he charged?

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, I would not know because we handed him over to the investigating officer.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR MAMOME: I think it's at Fuchsware, if not at the office, I do not remember well Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what's the first place you said?

MR MAMOME: Fuchsware.

MR VISSER: Fuchsware, it's electrical appliance, Fuchsware Building.

CHAIRPERSON: So it should be possible to obtain a date, a fixed date for when this arrest took place?

MR VISSER: We will make esquires Mr Chairman.
    Mr Mamome, is the security branch still accommodated in the Fontain Street building?

MR MAMOME: Yes.

MR VISSER: I thought that the security branch moved out of the Fontain Street Building.

MR MAMOME: We are many now, we have the district - we are in Fountain Street and Aliwal Street now, we have two offices.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no questions for the witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mamome, did you participate in the interrogation of the group of 19 persons at all?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR STANDER: What was your task with regard to the interrogation?

MR MAMOME: I was filling the forms called the historical report.

MR STANDER: Which section did you work in at that stage at the security police?

MR MAMOME: Black section.

MR STANDER: In other words it was also your task to investigate the youth.

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR STANDER: So the reply or the answers that you received there directly applicable to your field of work.

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Do you think that it was imperative for you at that stage to get answers to a lot of questions that you asked them?

MR MAMOME: Repeat your question Sir.

MR STANDER: Do you think it was very important for you to get answers to a lot of questions that you needed in your work.

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR STANDER: From what I could understand about the group, they were not prepared to give their co-operation?

MR MAMOME: That is not so, they were co-operative.

MR STANDER: How did you succeed in getting their co-operation?

MR MAMOME: It depended on the type of questions and how you asked them.

MR STANDER: If I understand you correctly, you said they gave you their co-operation.  Did they reply properly to all the questions you put to them?  Were you satisfied?

MR MAMOME: Sir, I am answering you.  Chairperson, ...[inaudible].  They gave their names and their addresses and what type of work they do. Such questions they answered, there's nothing difficult in answering those questions.

MR STANDER: But what was asked to them ...[intervention]

MR MAMOME: That is correct Sir.

MR STANDER: Did they say nothing further, that what they were going to look for overseas or abroad, who their leaders were, and what else?

MR MAMOME: You're right, that kind of question appeared, where the person was going to, what was he going to do?

MR STANDER: But did they give their co-operation in this regard?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR STANDER: So if they didn't come to tell or if you say they weren't prepared to give their co-operation then the others are all lying?

MR MAMOME: Sir, I am giving you an answer.  There were 19 people who were arrested, Chairperson, and Mr Stander, I believe you're not representing 19 of them all.   Now those you are representing are not the only ones we interrogated.  Now those you are not representing were also interrogated.  I am sorry to tell you that I was interrogating the ones you are not representing.

MR STANDER: Will you just reply to my question, namely, that whether they gave their co-operation and replies to all the questions you put to them?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR STANDER: So did not not reply as you would have liked to any of the questions?

MR MAMOME: They answered what I asked them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Who did they say they were going to meet outside the country?

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, they did not mention who they were going to - they said they wanted to go to Lesotho to attend school.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you not ask them who they were going to meet out side the country?

MR MAMOME: Chair, no Chairperson, that was the duty of another section, it was not my duty.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I thought you said that was one of the questions on the questionnaire, on the form.

MR MAMOME: That is correct and I hand the form over to the other section to look to that matter.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So you did not ask them that?

MR MAMOME: I would ask them what was on the form.