Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: So when you were told that this would be a second

CHAIRPERSON: /Biko case

CHAIRPERSON: Biko case your curiosity must have been aroused, is that right?

WITNESS:   I understood him to be then a detainee.  I could see he was a detainee, and that it's going to be a second Biko case, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you're an intelligent man.  You protest your intelligence in your affidavit, particularly at page 15 of Book 2, and you say that you would like to show that to a Court in South Africa.  Is that right?

WITNESS:   If you can refer me to the specific page please.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 96 on page 15 of Book 2.

WITNESS:   I haven't got the book.  Mr Chairman, can I please get a book?

CHAIRPERSON: 96.  (Pause)  "Given the opportunity I will prove."

MR DE JAGER: (Inaudible)

MR MOOSA: This is Evidence Book 2.

MR DE JAGER: Oh.  Page 15?

MR MOOSA: Page 15, 1-5, of the paginated pages.  You can see that, Mr Coetzee?

WITNESS:   What paragraph?

MR MOOSA: "Given the opportunity I will prove in a South African court of law that I am sane, and feel remorse, as does any other person.  I will prove the truth.  I will show that the actions carried out by myself and my unit as Section C1 were within the policy, practice and system ..."

MR MOOSA: etcetera.

WITNESS:   I accept that.

MR MOOSA: And before these paragraphs you talk about the fact that you are intelligent, that you passed certain courses in your B Iuris with distinction.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR MOOSA: And that you dispute the finding of the Harms Commission about your having psychopathic tendencies.  Is

MR MOOSA: /that right?

MR MOOSA: that right?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: In fact even before joining the Security Branch you had taken action on behalf of other policemen in 1976, is that right?

WITNESS:   Action in 1976?

MR MOOSA: Action about them having more humane conditions at the College.

CHAIRPERSON: Made representations on their behalf.

MR MOOSA: Made representations on their behalf.  Is that right?

WITNESS:   In '76 in the Police College, yes.  It was because justice was not upheld.  I mean we had to do departmental trials as presiding officers, and it was a complete farce.  Yes, I did.

MR MOOSA: So that every time when something was done, even within the security culture, that was abhorrent, you were intelligent enough to know what was being done?

WITNESS:   I was, yes.

MR MOOSA: And you had a very clear idea of what you were doing.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR MOOSA: You have spoken to the media a number of times in the normal nature of things.

WITNESS:   I have, Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: And you have described the scene was Khondile's body was burnt before.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: In some of these reports you made a particular point about Khondile's flesh smelling good.

WITNESS:   It was a question that frequently came up from journalists, and the first time from Jacques Paux, who asked me, "But what does it smell like when a human being is burning?" what the flesh smells like, and I did say, "Yes, it smells like normal braai up to a stage, then burning meat, and then bones that you would destroy in the fire."  Yes, I did.

MR MOOSA: And in these articles you've also said that it takes

MR MOOSA: /nine hours

MR MOOSA: nine hours for a body to be burnt.

WITNESS:   Seven to nine roughly, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: And that the ashes finally were thrown into the Komatipoort River.

WITNESS:   In the case of Peter and Vusi, but not with Sizwe Khondile.

MR MOOSA: As far as the Japanese crew was concerned, that happened to be journalists you were talking about, is that right?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR MOOSA: And Mrs Khondile was not approached by you, but by these journalists.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: And as far as talking about what you knew about the Khondile incident, you realised that Khondile was missing as far as the family was concerned for as much as nine years.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: That Louis Le Grange said in Parliament that he had been released officially by the police.

WITNESS:   I am not aware of it, but I'll accept that.

MR MOOSA: Mr Coetzee, I must put it to you that intelligent as you are you could have broken with the Security Police culture at any given time.

WITNESS:   Yes, I could have, and then I could have ended up like Brian Ngulungwa, six feet under, Mr Chairman, as it was proven in exile when I tried to break with the security culture, or the news about the security culture, and I had to leave the country.  There's two well documented murder attempts, assassination attempts on my life, one with a Walkman bomb and one with a contract murder with the Ulster Loyalists.

MR MOOSA: However, you did join the ANC after trying Parliamentarians and failing, is that correct?

WITNESS:   I did went to the ANC to get my back against the wall when I was before a choice to either stick with the rest of my

MR MOOSA: /former

MR MOOSA: former colleagues and lie, or come out with the truth, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: Could you tell the Committee exactly what deal it is you arrived at with the ANC?

WITNESS:   I originally, as I already said, through Jacques Paux and IDASA'S Andre Simon, sent a message to them that I would like to speak to them on the police sanctioned hit squads, and the message I received back is that they will listen to me, and that was all.  No promises was made.  I then asked - sent a further message and said whether they will help me at least, if they do not accept my story, for four months to get onto my feet in exile, because I knew after leaving the country and exposing the truth to the ANC, and if they do not want to accept me or protect me, I will be out on my own in the cold, and I asked them whether they then would for four months just assist me to get onto my feet.

MR MOOSA: So you're saying that you were not promised amnesty.

WITNESS:   Nothing.  No promises at all.  The message was just the clear one, "We are prepared to listen to you," with no promises at all.

MR MOOSA: During the Harms Commission it emerged that you were busy writing a novel, is that right?

WITNESS:   It was not a novel, it was actually - I knew during the Harms Commission I was going to be up against a wall of lies and the mighty apartheid regime, so I decided to write a book, which is this one, "Hit Squads Manuscript, Copyright reserved."  It is an unpublished manuscript.  I wanted to print it in the form of a book, walk into the Harms Commission, throw it in front of the Judge and say, "There is my story."  The rules we are playing outside there I can't repeat in a court of law because hearsay on

MR MOOSA: /Vlakplaas

MR MOOSA: Vlakplaas is rule number one, conclusions is rule number two, hearsay in the third and fourth degree is rule number three and four.  So that was what I intended doing, but in the end the lawyers who acted for me did not want to listen and pushed me into the Commission.   In fact if you go to this unpublished manuscript on page 111, I think it was, at that stage when I was before leaving for the Harms Commission on the night of the 20th.  Let me just get the page.  I was on page 125, paragraph 6.1.2, when I said - I wrote a letter to,

MR MOOSA: "My Dear Eluza Zuma,"

MR MOOSA: This is Minister Jacob Zuma, who's presently here, with a long jrrrrrr, and then,

MR MOOSA: "I seek you here, I seek you there, I seek you f--- everywhere.  Are you in heaven, are you in hell, you darned elusive pimpernel.  This is as far as I got in Lusaka.  I will continue this subversive communist document in London and let you have the rest in due course.  Greetings, Comrade Dirk and the collaborator, Ben."