Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

PELELE L SHONGWE: The manner in which he spoke to me when he left during the day, seemed dangerous to me.  When they came back later on, at the time when they knocked at the door, they seemed as if they had guns at their hands.  Guns, which were put through the half open door, or slightly open door.  I shot first because I thought I was defending myself.

MR MAPOMA: Now that self defence of yours, did it further the aims and objective of your organisation in a way?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Would you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: When you defended yourself in shooting these people, were you acting with any political motive or were you just defending yourself?

PELELE L SHONGWE: I think political motives are also part of it, because at the time the National Party was the enemy of the ANC, such that the very same person at the time when he left that day, he said we ANC members will shit.  We will see what is going to happen when we get back.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he not come to that house where you were, he would not have died, is that not so?

PELELE L SHONGWE: I think so yes because he too must have come to me with the intention of fighting me.  First of all the house that I was using, was regarded as a safe house of the ANC, so that any National Party member who crossed the grounds or the premises, may not have come there with a good intention.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Thank you sir, no further questions.

MR MAPOMA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, have you got any questions?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, there is no questions.  I just want for the sake of clarity on page 148 where it is referred that Mr Bongani Khaba was prosecuted.  My instructions are that he was never a co-accused with this particular applicant, that he wasn't prosecuted in respect of any of these counts.
	What happened in fact was that Mr Khaba did appear in court on that day, but it was for the purposes of sentence in respect of the other matter, but it wasn't as if he was being charged, prosecuted, no.  That is all.

MR BLACK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, have you got any re-examination?

MR PATEL: None, Mr Chairman.

MR PATEL: .

CHAIRPERSON: Francis?

ADV SANDI: Mr Shongwe, just one or two questions from me.  Before this Mr Ernest Malele came to this house where you were hiding, did Pat or Patrick whoever the name of the gentleman may be, did he have any conversation with you about the political situation in this town which you referred to as White River?

PELELE L SHONGWE: We used to discuss politics, myself and Pat, such that when these people left, I asked him who these people were and he indicated to me that these are National Party members, and this person can be very dangerous, I know him.
	I am living around here with him, he doesn't like ANC people.

ADV SANDI: Did he say there were any incidents between members of the National Party and the ANC, that is before these two gentlemen came?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Would you please repeat the question.

ADV SANDI: Did he say there were any incidents between the National Party and the ANC before Mr Ernest Malele came to this house, what did he say was happening, if he said anything?

PELELE L SHONGWE: I think I do remember slightly that he indicated that there is one ANC organiser who was in conflict with the National Party people, who was not allowed to canvass freely, but then he didn't indicate to me who that National Party person was.  He just indicated that one ANC organiser had a problem with the National Party members in one of the areas.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shongwe, you said that you have made friends with the victims or the next of kin of the victims, you get on well with them now?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, I can say that.  Such that I also asked one of them to take me to Bongani Malinga's mother so that I could talk to her.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you done so?

PELELE L SHONGWE: I tried that, but Mangete refused, he said I should not talk to these people because they are under his control.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still wanting to do so?

PELELE L SHONGWE: Yes, I will be very pleased if such a thing can happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you try some other method of going to talk to them?  Some other broker if you want?

PELELE L SHONGWE: I have already identified a person who could broker on this issue, Mtuzi from the IFP.  I spoke to him and he willingly indicated that he can do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you have done in four years now?

PELELE L SHONGWE: May the Chairperson please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you have done to make friends in this last four years?

PELELE L SHONGWE: I am not here most of the time, I reside in Johannesburg, that is where I work.  I only come back here on Saturdays and go back on Sundays, therefore I don't have enough time to meet these people.
	I was also afraid to go to Bongani's place all by myself, because they might say something different the following day.  I only had an opportunity now that I have come here for the TRC, that is when I spoke to Mtuzi from the IFP and he willingly indicated that he can broker on the issue.
	Now I haven't had a chance to talk to these people.  Yesterday I went to talk to my lawyer and never had a chance, I think that seeing that I might be finishing today, I will have an opportunity tomorrow to see Bongani's parents, maybe shortly after this gathering here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are excused.  We will adjourn till quarter to ...

PELELE L SHONGWE: I would like to say something.  I would request that our parents here in the community and we people who took part in the violence in the community, must assist one another so that we could talk together.  We should continue and avoid the conflict because that conflict led to many of us not having any chance, not getting a chance to go to school.
	If this persists, our children will not have the opportunity to go to school.  I would like to apologise to everybody who was wronged by my deeds, and I am inviting others who come before this Commission, to do the same.  Right now, I am working for the South African National Defence Force.  I am looking and dealing with all nationalities, IFP, ANC and everybody else to ensure that everybody is safe.
	A special reference to the families of the deceased, it was not our intention really, it was the political circumstances, the atmosphere that prevailed.  Forgiveness would be appropriate.  I would like to apologise, may they please forgive me and accept my apology.  I would like for us to communicate as we used to.
	We grew up together with these Black Cat boys, they were unfortunately misled by people such as Jwi and Chris, people who were older than them, but after having realised the mistake, we note that this should not happen again.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn till quarter to nine tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS