Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-03

CHAIRPERSON: He is the Investigator from the TRC.  Now what is contained here is that, paragraph 3, is that you only noticed Mr Phumayo as you were on your way home.  You only noticed him once you were out of Maria's house.
	During your viva voce evidence, you stated that you noticed him whilst you were inside the house, and you saw him standing next to an electric box.  That is not what is in your statement.  All that she wants you to explain is that difference.  Do you understand?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: If I may explain, there are two streets.  I was sitting in Maria's house and peeping through the window, I was right inside the house.
	He was coming, because it was bright, because of the street lamps.  I saw him as he was coming.  Before he arrived at the electric box, that is when I came out from Maria's house and I said I am leaving for home because I didn't know exactly who was going to attack me.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you are answering her question.  She wants to know why in your statement you said you only noticed him as you were on your way home, whereas in your oral evidence, you say you saw him whilst you were inside the house?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I am trying to explain the difference.  I saw him for the first time while I was still inside the house, and when I was outside, I could see him as well.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that.  Are you saying therefore that what is contained in your statement, is incorrect?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I will say it is a lie.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you legal representative read this statement to you before the commencement of this hearing?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you notice that according to what is contained herein, the point at which you first saw Mr Mshenga was when you were on your way home and not when you were inside Maria's house?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: No, I didn't notice that.  As I am explaining that there is a street right above Maria's house, and I thought this two were not conflicting each other that much.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you notice that your statement contained something that you did not agree with, that is my question, in relation to at what stage you saw Mshenga on the day in question?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: No, I didn't notice that.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Did you know where Mr Phumayo lived, his home?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes.

MS THABETE: How far was it from Maria's place?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: It was far, much too far.  I think if I may count the streets, it is approximately five streets from Maria's place to his house.

MS THABETE: My instructions are that when you actually saw Mr Phumayo, he was from his home.  What is your comment on that and he was very much close from his house or his home?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: No, that is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your instructions that Mr Phumayo's house was not five streets away from Maria's house?  Are those your instructions?

MS THABETE: I will have to clarify that Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETE: Mr Mtambo, you say when you followed the deceased, you actually caught up with him, is that correct?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is correct.

MS THABETE: And you say you had a conversation with him, is that correct?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes.

MS THABETE: Exactly what was the conversation, can you briefly tell us?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I greeted him and he greeted me back.  What I have noticed is that he was scared when I came closer to him.

MS THABETE: Why did he show fear because I thought earlier on you said he was a very brave man and you were used to him, why would he fear you all of a sudden?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: What I can say is that we were scared of each other, we were scared of meeting each other at night.
	That is why he was scared, because we never used to come closer to each other at night.

MS THABETE: No, that is not my question.  My question is earlier on you testified to the fact that you were on good relations, you used to talk to each other and on this particular day, you just greeted him, and he had fear.  Why?
	Because according to your evidence, he was a very brave man, he was used to you, why on this particular day, did he fear you, that is my question.  If you don't know, you can say you don't know.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I don't know why he was scared.

MS THABETE: And then, what was the conversation, what did he say to you, what did you say to him, if at all you did say anything to each other before you actually shot him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: He said we can walk along, and I asked him as to how can we walk along together, because he was an ANC member and I was an IFP member.
	There was no harmony between the two of us.  The reason I said so was because I didn't want other IFP members to think that I was betraying them, because they were going to think that I was betraying them.

MS THABETE: Is that all?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes.

MS THABETE: Is that all you said to him, and what he said to you and then you shot him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I can't remember what he said, other things he said.

MS THABETE: Can you tell us how you shot him?  What led to you shooting him?

MR LAX: Sorry, if I can interrupt.  He hasn't answered your question, which you put to him, and you are just proceeding on.  You asked him is that all he said to you, not what you may have spoken about?  Your answer was, I can't remember everything I said to him.
	Did he say anything more to you besides let's go for a walk together?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I can't remember.  I can't remember if he added on that.
	Maybe it is because when I arrived there, I actually saw a chance that I should use that chance, to kill him.

MS THABETE: Mr Mtambo, are you saying from the time you left Maria Mthetwa's place and saw the deceased, you had actually decided that you were going to shoot at him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: The decision which I have already taken, wasn't specific to kill him, but the decision which I had taken was that I was going to kill anyone who belonged to ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: You must be careful Mr Mtambo, you must be careful about your testimony and the contradictions that might arise as a result of what you are saying now.
	That is not what you initially said.  In your evidence in chief, you stated categorically that you yourself, took a decision to kill Phumayo, not any other member of the ANC.  It was a decision to kill a specific person and that person was Phumayo.
	Now you are giving evidence under oath and the requirements of you succeeding in getting amnesty is that you must be honest.
	You recall giving evidence and saying that you yourself took a decision to kill Phumayo, in order to enhance the integrity of your organisation, because he was a brave man and that killing him, would intimidate the ANC members, who would then be intimidated and join your organisation?
	I am just worried about your evidence now which seems to suggest that when you took a decision, you didn't have any person in mind, to kill.  The decision was intended to kill any member, any member of the ANC, and not a specific person.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is true, I did say that I took a decision to kill Mr Phumayo, because I have already said that my reasons were that he was a brave man.
	I would like to apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, may I with your indulgence and Mr Claassen's indulgence, and all those present, request that we take a two minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: (still under oath)

MS THABETE: (continued)   Mr Mtambo, you have been asked a question as to why you killed Mr Phumayo, and your response was because he was a brave man and it would intimidate the ANC.  Is there any other reason why you killed him or is that the reason why you killed him?