Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: Definitely Mr Chairman, that is my analysis.
MR DU PLESSIS(?): Mr Chairman, before we go ahead, may I just make the point that in respect of the evidence of Mr Mamasela, and that's for your own and Miss Hartle's interest, obviously you know that evidence has been given about the Kwandabele 9 matter about which Mr Mamasela has testified now about Captain Hechter's involvement and I just want place on record that obviously the version of Mr Mamasela is disputed.  I also act for Captain Hechter and I just want to state that while I'm here, that that version is disputed.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take of that.
	Yes, Miss Hartle?

MS HARTLE: Mr Mamasela finally, is it not consistent with operations of this nature where bodies or persons are supposed to be eliminated, that it would be quicker, cleaner to shoot the victims?

JOE MAMASELA: With due respect, in all my experience in this hell hole I have never come across a thing that is called clean killing.  There is no such thing, it only exists in the minds of those who want to appear here as honest and decent gentlemen who don't want to subjugate other people into unnecessary pain, there's nothing like that.
	People are killed brutally, they died worse than animals and that is a fact.  I have never, I don't believe in clean killings and all that, it has never happened.

MS HARTLE: But Mr Mamasela, what I'm saying to you is, doesn't it make more sense if you are going to be planning an elimination, just simply shoot the three victims rather than subject them to unnecessary torture and assault?

JOE MAMASELA: No, the purpose of the security police is not just to kill people and get out, they want information, they want to dig as much information as they possibly can before you die.
	And the idea is to inflict as much pain as possible.  It was a sadistic well calculated method of killing people and they know it and I was part of it.

MS HARTLE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS HARTLE

ADV SANDI: Mr Mamasela sorry, just on the very last issue, if one of the applicants, if one or two of the applicants says the interrogation was meant to be a superficial interrogation simply to mislead those of you who came from Vlakplaas as to the purpose of this abduction what would you say to that?

JOE MAMASELA: No, that would be a blatant lie because the people were severely assaulted, they were beaten with iron in front of my eyes.  I've seen the worst form of torture I've ever seen, I've witnessed that so it cannot be superficial when it was indeed brutal and savage.

ADV DE JAGER: But Mr Mamasela with all respect, you're again exaggerating by saying they were beaten with irons because during your whole evidence you only talk about one piece of iron.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, that one piece of iron inflicted a lot of wounds on various people.

ADV DE JAGER: No, I can understand that.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, okay.

ADV SANDI: If one of the applicants has said the people from Vlakplaas, specifically the Askaris were not supposed to be involved in interrogation because they have not been trained on matters of interrogation, what would you say to that?

JOE MAMASELA: I will say that's a blatant lie because most Askaris, they were used extensively to interrogate even their own comrades who were arrested to win their hearts.  So I believe in a sense that we were the masters of interrogation, not the normal police interrogation of putting a sack and whatever, just discussing and getting facts from somebody and winning a person's heart.  We were masters of that.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I have no questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

ADV DE JAGER: When you interrogated Mr Tolo, did you assault him?

JOE MAMASELA: Mr Stoto?

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.

JOE MAMASELA: Stoto, yes.  At one stage Mr Stoto - initially when we came in and there were our white commanders here, I am the one who talked to him and he started saying: "No, you, you are just little dogs of these white things" you know, and: "I cannot be asked questions by you" and I got furious and I slapped him.  	And then we left the following day, I talked to him and I gave him the soft treatment and then he started talking about Malcolm X, that's when I started breaking him and he started talking about Malcolm X and being cooperative.
	But already he'd swallowed the valuable information that they wanted, he swallowed the list of his MK cell members who were here.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mamasela, we have also received evidence concerning the presence of - we have received evidence from one of some of the applicants that there was some drinks, I think you also testified to that effect.  What kind of drinks exactly are you referring to?

JOE MAMASELA: I said that there was rum and there was brandy, too much brandy and there was coke, enough coke.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to say with certainty that those who were at Post Chalmers, everyone who was there consumed the liquor?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I wouldn't say with certainty.  I did not know who consumed liquor and who consumed a cold drink, I will just assume that as the braai went on there was drink offered, people were drinking a very strong type of a drink.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any more witnesses?

MR BOOYENS: We must finish the cross-examination of Koole, that was reserved but that Mr Chairman won't take long, well I can speak for myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you are the one who wanted to cross-examine Mr Koole.

MR BOOYENS: I think actually I do not want to embarrass my colleagues, I say when I made the suggestion - I've read it on the record the other day, I suggest to Mr Chairman that I will not ask any further questions about the statement and I suggest everybody else do the same.  	So I think in fact I assumed responsibility for the fact that none of my colleagues then actually asked questions as far as I can remember, on that statement either because the statement was hanging in the air.
	So it will in all probability be all of us, not only me.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Unless there is someone who still wants to put questions to Mr Mamasela, in which case it must be properly motivated.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, may I be permitted to just follow up one aspect that I have omitted during cross-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: How did you managed to omit that, you cross-examined from yesterday afternoon and the whole of this morning until ...[intervention]

MR LAMEY: I inadvertently omitted just this aspect Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it just the one aspect?

MR LAMEY: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can do that.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr
Chairman.
	Mr Mamasela, was there any chance for you and Koole and Mogoai to change clothing at the period at Post Chalmers?  Were there additional clothes taken?

JOE MAMASELA: I wouldn't say so, I don't know about them.  I didn't take additional clothing because I did not anticipate that we were going to stay for three days.

MR LAMEY: But with regard to Koole, did you see him change clothing?

JOE MAMASELA: I did not see him change clothing, it he did I would not even deny it, I did not see it.

MR LAMEY: Upon your arrival at Glen Connor, after this operation was completed.  Were the other Askaris there?

JOE MAMASELA: The other?  The other members of Vlakplaas and the Askaris, were they there?

JOE MAMASELA: No, to the best of knowledge I didn't see them.

MR LAMEY: They were not there when you arrived back at Glen Connor.

JOE MAMASELA: No, I didn't see them.

MR LAMEY: Did they arrive apparently later?

JOE MAMASELA: I didn't see them because we just arrived and we were just told to take our clothing and then shoot straight to Pretoria.  And I believe the same message was conveyed to them to proceed before us to Pretoria.