Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR LAX: He only told us about one sort of caucus and that was a discussion he had with Damara Qunchu.  He didn't mention this caucus at all.  You don't know why he didn't mention it?  Do you think maybe he has forgotten or he is mistaken or what?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I really don't know.

MR LAX: Just one other aspect on the filling out of these forms, the truth is that you weren't present there, correct at the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: And the truth is also that you didn't know when the attack was going to happen?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: And that you weren't present at any of the meetings besides the caucus, where decisions were taken to attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: What were you trying to hide by lying?  What was the purpose of your lies, what were you trying to manufacture?  What different version of the truth were you trying to achieve?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I am certain that I was not present at the meeting where the decision was taken.

MR LAX: You haven't answered my question, do you understand the question?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I am not hiding anything.

MR LAX: The question I am asking is, what were you seeking to hide by lying in these forms because the truth in no way, interferes, so what were you trying to achieve by lying?  Do you understand the question?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do understand the question.  I have already explained, I cannot say there is anything in particular that I wanted to achieve.  I have explained this numerous times now.

MR LAX: So you had no intention to achieve, by telling lies?  There was no purpose in it, is that what you are telling us?

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe the fact that he did not trust the TRC?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: There was no intention of benefitting from so doing, really.

MR LAX: Just one second, we are just sorting out something with the translation.   Were you present at the hostel on the Sunday before the massacre?  There have been a lot of talk about meetings that happened on the Sunday and the Saturday, were you actually there because I am not clear from your answers whether you were there or not?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I have already indicated that I know about a meeting that was held on the 13th.

MR LAX: At Jabulani, were you there on that day?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was present on the 13th.

MR LAX: Were you present on the 14th?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was not present at the meeting on the 14th.

MR LAX: So you can't deny anything about that meeting because you weren't there?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: At some point during your evidence under cross-examination, you said that you didn't know anything about the allegations, you were asked did you know anything about the allegations surrounding Victor Keswa and your answer was no, I am not aware about him.  I am a person who minds my own business, I wasn't interested in what he was doing.
	Is that correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I said I was not aware of what he was doing, of his activities.

MR LAX: The question you were asked was, were you aware of the allegations about Victor Keswa, not about what he was doing and that was your answer.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I said no.

MR LAX: But later in your evidence you indicated that you had heard about the allegations on the radio.  I just want you to explain that for us please.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did hear on the radio that he was alleged to be a hitsquad member.  I heard about that.

MR LAX: As Chairperson of the Youth Brigade, did you ever ask him about this, weren't you concerned about it?  Here was one of your members involved in this kind of activity or allegedly involved in this kind of activity.  Did you ever do something about it?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not question him, but I was - I started to watch him closely to try and ascertain if indeed those allegations could be true.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: How far was your room from the main gate at the hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It was close to the gate.

ADV SIGODI: And you have heard the evidence here that the hostel dwellers left through the main gate when they were going to attack and there were hundreds of them.
	Your evidence here is that you did not know anything, you did not know anything about the attack or that there was going to be an attack, you only got to know about the attack the following morning.
	Can you explain to me how is it possible that if hundreds of people are leaving through the main gate, that you would not have heard them?  Or did you hear them when they left through the main gate?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Because of the state of my ill health, I was not able to listen as to what was happening.
	Because of my ill health, I did not see what was happening at the hostel.

ADV SIGODI: You did not see what was happening, did you hear the sound of people walking through the main gate?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: When people walk up and down around the place, you do hear footsteps but you wouldn't know who they are or where they are going.

ADV SIGODI: But would you agree with me that there would be a difference from the sound of people walking in and out of the gate and from the sound of a whole group of people going out to attack?  Would you agree with me on that point?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: If they were making a lot of noise, I could have heard them if I was not in deep sleep, but I did not hear them.

ADV SIGODI: All right, I will leave that.  This caucus which you had, who called the meeting?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It had been called by myself and Mr Khumalo.

ADV SIGODI: Had you discussed with Mr Khumalo who you were going to call to the caucus?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: We discussed on who to contact and we decided on Qunchu and Mr Mkhize.

ADV SIGODI: Can you say it was a formal meeting or was it just an informal thing where you just wanted to discuss what you wanted to do, what should be done about the problem of the Boipatong residents?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It was an informal discussion, because we did not have time to sit down and analyze all the issues, but we were just discussing amongst ourselves.

ADV SIGODI: After that, you did not take any steps to make sure that the attack took place?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I did not do anything.

ADV SIGODI: And you were not involved in any planning to the way in which the Boipatong residents would be attacked, the modus operandi, as to how you were going to come into the township and all that, you never took part in any of that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Buthelezi, you said on the 14th of June, you were not there?  Where were you?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was out, I could have been in town.  I may have gone to buy out stock for my tuckshop in the hostel.

MR SIBANYONI: When you returned, didn't you hear that there was a meeting and what was discussed in the meeting?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately, they did not inform me about it.

MR SIBANYONI: On the 17th of June, on the day of the attack, did you hear the siren or the alarm being sounded?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did.

MR SIBANYONI: Did Mr Khanyile leave immediately when the siren was sounded or was there some delay?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He left immediately after the alarm was sounded, because the alarm means that people should assemble at the stadium.
	He left immediately after the alarm sounded.

MR SIBANYONI: You spoke about different meetings that the youth would meet alone to discuss their own issues, and there will be a general meeting.  My question is, was this alarm used for each and every meeting which was called?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The alarm was sounded for general meetings.