Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

MS COLLETT: When you arrived at the hall was the commissioner's wife and daughter there?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: The commissioner's wife, we heard that from the ministerial complex, when General Nqoya phoned his house because when we were there he phoned his house, he wanted to report what was going on.  Nobody answered the phone in his house.  He phoned the neighbours and he was told that a Casspir had arrived with soldiers.  They said that a soldier's Casspir arrived, the doors were kicked and they broke the doors and they took his wife and his child and they took them to the Casspir.  He asked where they took them, the neighbour said he didn't know, we're still at the minister's complex at the time.

MS COLLETT: When you arrived at the hall did you see the daughter and the wife there?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes I saw them.

MS COLLETT: And are you able to comment on their frame of mind or how they were behaving when you arrived there, that's the wife and the daughter?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: When we arrived they were sitting in the corner at the back of the stage.  When General Nqoya was pushed, kicked, going up to the stage, they could see him.  When he was sitting down as female Captain Makhubalo was called to sit next to General Nqoya, General Nqoya's wife was there, sitting there with the child and it seemed as if she didn't like what was happening to her husband.

MS COLLETT: Now this Makhubalo that you're referring to, this is a female policeman, isn't it?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MS COLLETT: Was anything said about her and a relationship with her in front of the commissioner's wife?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes it was said that General Nqoya gave her a job whilst she had criminal cases and he did that because they had an affair of which that was not the case, it was not General Nqoya who appointed Captain Makhubalo after she had had criminal cases.

MS COLLETT: Did General Nqoya's wife and child go at some stage?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: No they were also sitting there.

MS COLLETT: Were they kept there the entire evening as well?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MS COLLETT: Did they appear to be scared and distressed?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that General Nqoya was taken to this police college after Brigadier Gqozo had stepped down?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MS COLLETT: Was anything at that hall said to suggest that it had a political gathering or a meeting with political intentions or the like?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: No there was nothing like that.  Even on the first occasion that we arrived there we found out that they wanted to know about the pension money of the police and the promotions, that's what we found out on the first occasion.  That is why he wanted to go and meet with Brigadier Gqozo concerning that.  When he came back it was when he was asked about his CV's that had nothing to do with politics.

MS COLLETT: How was General Nqoya and the other officers treated by the non-commissioned officers?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: The officers that were there before us, I didn't see them being treated badly except that they were asked to tell about their CV's and they were asked to tell when they were appointed and those that were asked about the funds.  The officers that I saw being treated badly were those that would arrived whilst we were there because there are officers that arrived after we'd arrived like Brigadier Geba and Brigadier Ngani.  While they were coming towards the stage they were kicked and then when they arrived on the stage nothing had happened to them except that they were only questioned.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Obose, questions?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	So Mr Luwana, you say intelligence officers were debriefed in that meeting, is that correct?  To tell as to which houses did they bug and what information was collected is that correct?  You mentioned some policemen who had been in the security, now I call it intelligence because that's the current name now, about bugging and all that, is that correct?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: What was asked of him to tell the meeting?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: He was asked to tell the meeting about his job of bugging the telephones, he was asked why he was bugging those telephones, such information, the information that he was working with there.

MR OBOSE: Now in military terms that is called debriefing, isn't that so?  When intelligence people are supposed to tell as to what they had been doing for the previous regime, is that not so?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That didn't used to happen to intelligence members to disclose that information in public.

MR OBOSE: But it is normal after a coup, isn't that so, that intelligence officers would be debriefed?  Hasn't your police training taught you that?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I haven't met the coup or the overthrowing so I don't know what happens after it.

MR OBOSE: Alright, when Sebe was overthrown by Brigadier Gqozo you were already a policeman, is that not so?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Weren't the senior officers who served under Sebe debriefed at Zone 6 by the officers who were loyal to Brigadier Gqozo?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I won't know about that because I was not very close to the people who were in that position.

MR OBOSE: It is your evidence that, that I'm gathering from your - deducing from it, that at all times Minister Brunet seemed to be of the opinion that the police were dangerous, is that correct?  On that day?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Would you please repeat your question?

MR OBOSE: Would it be correct to deduce from your evidence that at all times material, Minister Brunet - at least the Minister of Finance, you didn't tell his name, was under the impression that police were dangerous hence attempts were made to secure an armoured vehicle?  Isn't that correct?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: It is the Minister of Finance who said he was not in a position to go and address the police because the police were armed.

MR OBOSE: Did you establish as to how he got to know this information, that police were armed?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Police are always armed, police are always in possession of firearms all the time.

MR OBOSE: Well that must be an over simplification.  Then what would have been the need if police are ordinarily armed, what would have been the need for the armoured vehicle?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Even myself as a policeman I have a firearm.  When it comes to addressing the police knowing very well that there could be differences in that particular subject, you have to go there armed and you will be sure that you're going to be safe by so doing.

MR OBOSE: Well ordinarily police do carry firearms, we do know that.  Does it mean a minister who is to address policemen has got to go there in an armoured vehicle, normally?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: When the police meet in that manner even if it's not policemen, when you see a group of people with firearms and then they would call you to come and address them you are obliged to go there armed because if there is a difference in opinion anything can happen.

MR OBOSE: Alright, let's go back to Bongusa, Bongusa had told you in the morning that he himself would not go to that meeting, is that correct?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: What impression did you get from his statement, what did you deduce?  He said he is surprised Nqoya is in the meeting, isn't that so?  That's how I understood your evidence.  Or at least he did not know that Nqoya was in a meeting or at least seemed not to be in favour of the fact that Nqoya was in a meeting, is that so?