Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

UNKNOWN: When you came out and you saw your brother 
lying there, surely your focus was on your brother, trying to retrieve 
his body, trying to see whether he was alive?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, the focus was on my brother, yes.

UNKNOWN: You weren't looking out for a gun or for any 
other item for that matter.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: You are quite correct, I wasn't looking for any 
other item.  It just so happened, that when I lifted my brother's 
head, the pouch was lying next to his head and I noticed the pouch 
lying next to his head.

UNKNOWN: And the gun might have been lying somewhere in 
the gutter?  Is that not possible?  Is it not possible that it could have 
been lying somewhere?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I did not see any gun.

UNKNOWN: No, I accept that you did not see any gun.  I 
accept that, okay.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse, many things can be possible.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is all I want to know.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I did not see a gun, I picked up my brother's 
head, the pouch was lying there next to his head.  Mr Brode came, 
surely he would have noticed the gun as well.  And after a couple of 
minutes, after five minutes or ten minutes after, I don't know, then 
he handed me the gun.  You would have to ask Mr Brode where he 
got the gun.

UNKNOWN: Because you see it is, why, for what reason 
would Mr Brode just hand, we are going to ask that, I just want 
your comments.  For what reason would Mr Brode hand a gun to the 
Police when a gun didn't figure at all in this situation?

JUDGE WILSON: Did Mr Brode hand a gun to the Police?

UNKNOWN: That is what the witness said, Judge.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No Sir, I didn't say that.

JUDGE WILSON: He said Mr Brode handed the gun to him and he 
handed it to the Police.

UNKNOWN: Oh, it is the same thing.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: It is not the same thing, it is two different 
things.  Mr Brode gave me the gun and I gave it to the Police.

UNKNOWN: That is better then.  I am glad that's been cleared 
up, that is better then.    Why did he hand the gun to you if the gun 
didn't feature at all in this situation?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I've got no idea, you will have to ask Mr Brode.

UNKNOWN: I mean if the gun was just lying where it usually 
lay under the counter, or in a desk drawer or whatever, there is no 
reason that one can think of why the gun should just be produced 
and given to you?

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Arendse, are you suggesting when gunshots 
had been fired all over the street, when a man was lying dead in the 
gutter, you think of logical reasons?  Surely any person there who 
knew there was a weapon available, would want to have it in his 
possession?  Wouldn't you ... (intervention)

UNKNOWN: No Judge.

JUDGE WILSON: If they came back, so you would be in a position 
to do something?

UNKNOWN: No, no.  I wouldn't.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse, at the time I didn't have a gun with 
me, but I was hoping that I had a gun with me.  I was hoping that I 
had a gun with me, and that is why I went into the restaurant, 
shouting for the gun to protect myself because when somebody is 
firing shots at you, surely Mr Arendse, even in your case, you would 
have also hoped for something to defend yourself with?   Isn't that 
so?

UNKNOWN: Well, exactly.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: I want to suggest to you then, that your brother 
did want to defend himself and that is why he ran out with a gun.  
And that is why he aimed shots, you agree he was a brave man in the 
ordinary course?  He stood up for himself, he stood up for his 
rights?  He worked hard?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: My brother was a very soft man, in fact if I was 
the one that got shot I would have said more that I am the 
aggressive man.

UNKNOWN: Well, I mean let's not get into the semantics.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, I think yes please, just move on ... 
(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Yes, he ran out with, I want to suggest to you 
Mr Cerqueira, he went when he heard the popping sound, the 
cracking sound, he ran outside, he took his gun and he aimed shots 
at the attackers, as they got into the car.  And those are the shots 
that Mr Gqomfa says was fired in his direction.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse ... (intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Are you now saying he shot up the road as they 
got into the car outside the Tavern, is that what you are now 
putting?  Is that your version on behalf of your clients?

UNKNOWN: Well, if could hardly be anything else.  What can 
it be, I mean Mr Gqomfa ... (intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: I want to know, I am asking you Mr Arendse, is 
that the version you are putting that as they got into the car in front 
of the Tavern the deceased shot at them?

UNKNOWN: Let me not put words into Mr Gqomfa's, this is 
what is in his statement.  He says, he withdrew last, the others were 
already in the car which was idling and was moving very slowly.  
After I got into the car and we approached the robot, some shots 
were fired in my direction.

JUDGE WILSON: After I got into the car and when we approached 
the robot?  What you put to the witness a moment ago was as they 
were getting into the car, that is what I queried Mr Arendse.
	There is no suggestion at any shots were fired at them while 
they were getting into the car.

UNKNOWN: When he was in the car, the shots were fired Mr 
Cerqueira.  I am suggesting to you that it was your brother who 
fired those shots.  And he is the only one who could have fired those 
shots and that explains why Mr Brode produced the gun, handed it 
to you and you handed it to the Police.  There is no other reason 
why that gun would have been produced to the Police.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse, like I said earlier on, there was no 
way in my view, like you've got your view that you've just given me, 
there is no way in my view that my brother could have shot at the 
car when they were getting into the car out of the Heidelberg Tavern 
because myself, Mr Brode and Michael was standing in front where 
we were taking the shots, so if my brother had to shoot, this is just 
an assumption that I am making like you are Sir, he would have had 
to shoot us first before he shot at anybody else.
	And I would have heard the shots from behind me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, I think you've got an answer.  He 
does  not agree with the way, he does not agree with the evidence 
that you are putting to him, that is Mr Gqomfa's evidence and he has 
denied that, now can we move on from there?

ADV SANDI: Mr Cerqueira, did Mr Brode say anything to you as 
he was giving you the gun?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Not that I can recall Sir, no.

ADV SANDI: He just gave you the gun?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: He just gave me the gun.  He said he is Joe's 
gun, I think that is what he said, something to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on please.

UNKNOWN: Mr Cerqueira, I also want to just put something 
for the record.  I find it very odd Mr Brode gave a statement, he 
gave evidence in court and he gave a statement to the Investigators 
of this Committee.  Mr Gqomfa gave his evidence as I have read it 
out to you.
	And he wasn't challenged on that at all.  Now, this is a critical 
aspect, you agree with that, it is a critical aspect?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I agree, it is a very critical aspect, especially 
when somebody get shot at.

UNKNOWN: Yes, for no reason apparently?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: For no reason.

UNKNOWN: Yes, for just standing on the corner?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Very critical.

UNKNOWN: Now, you know, have you got any explanation 
why it wasn't raised?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sorry?

UNKNOWN: You didn't want to be part of this process?