Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

ADV MEMANI: Mr Erasmus do you know this Lt Bester?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I know him, I think at this stage he has retired in Pretoria.

MR VISSER: Is it not the Bester who testified here?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No definitely not Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Erasmus if you condoned Mr Ngo's unlawful activities, for what reason should we believe that you would not condone an unlawful torture of people at Fountains?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable Chair, I condoned nothing of Mr Ngo's.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Erasmus, we've heard in other applications that there came a time during the 80's when the police realised that legal methods were not sufficient to deal with the unrest situation in the country and they therefore had to resort to unconventional means in order to deal with the political situation at the time.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I heard that over the media yes.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it the case that Security Branch Bloemfontein also experienced the same difficulty with activists?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it in fact the effect of Motsomai's evidence when he testifies about George Mutsi who he says he was a courier and always remained at home and the police could not hold him and connect him to any activity, although they had information that he was a courier?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I cannot comment on that Mr Chairman because I didn't know Mr George Mutsi.

ADV MEMANI: Doesn't that tie up with the evidence which was given that soon after the arrest of people who had been attempting to flee the country to go to Lesotho, Mr George Mutsi was killed.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't agree Mr Chairman, I don't have personal of that which is now being put to me.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it so that Mr Motsamai also testified about an activist whom they could not corner because he used to walk on feet, he did not have a car and frustrated Security Branch, and it was decided therefore that he would be attacked.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I have no knowledge of that sir.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Erasmus, I want us to attempt to focus on Mr Venter.  You told us that Mr Ngo was an informer.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: And initially you used to meet him near Kwaggafontein.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And isn't it so that he was living in a room which was being paid for by Security Branch?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is not the truth, Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Well isn't it so - did you hear Mr Mohape testify?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable Chair, to my knowledge no accommodation was paid for by the Security Branch for Mr Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: I said to you did you hear the Mr Mohape testify?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I heard Mr Mohape refer to a room occupied by Mr Ngo at a certain stage, yes I heard that.

ADV MEMANI: Did you also hear him say that it surprised them that he could afford these things because  - I think there's something wrong with the system, there's some cutting, I don't know whether everybody experiences that problem. - I'll proceed Mr Chair.  Now did you hear him say that it surprised them that Mr Ngo could afford things because he came from a poor family.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I heard it Honourable Chair.

ADV MEMANI: And at the time Mr Ngo was a student.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That's correct, he was a student at that stage.

ADV MEMANI: Wasn't it in the interest of Security Branch that Mr Ngo should remain living in the township so that he should be able to gather information about black students?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable Chair, most of his activities took place during office hours or shortly afterwards, therefor it was not essential for the informant to live in the black township.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it so that many of the meetings took place at night as well?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: There were indeed meetings which took place during the night.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it so that most of those meetings which took place at night were executive meetings?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Many of them involved management and then I had to ask him to attend those meetings.  Mr Ngo whom I'd ask yes.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo was a member of the executive?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that's correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: At the time when he started living with Mr Venter did you ask him why he had left the township?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman as far as I can remember, it's not only what I remember, it's a fact.  I do not have any knowledge of any accommodation or room Mr Ngo had in the township.  I met him and according to me he lived initially in Daggafontein and later with Mr Venter.  I don't know about the house or the room he had in a black township, he never mentioned that to me.

ADV MEMANI: The question I was asking was when Ngo left the township to go and live with Mr Venter, did you ask him why he had left the township to go and live with Mr Venter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman according to me he never left the township to go and live with Mr Venter, but he left from Kwaggafontein.  His accommodation with Mr Venter suited me because it was easy to get hold of him.

JUDGE WILSON: Is Kwaggafontein not a township?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No this is on the western side of Bloemfontein. It's more a plot area.  It's on the Petrusburg road.

ADV MEMANI: Did Ngo at any stage while you knew him to live in the township?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: But why would Ngo and Mohape lie about Ngo living in the township?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable Chairman I do not know that Mr Ngo had a room there.  He never told me about that.  It may be that he had a room there but I don't know about it.  He never mentioned it to me and this is news to me.

ADV MEMANI: Subject to correction, my recollection of that evidence was that Mr Ngo originated from Kwaggafontein but hired a room in the township.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman according to me he initially lived with his parents in Kwaggafontein.  Before that I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: But surely if Mr Mohape knew him as a person living in the township at a certain stage and he went to confiscate a certain document in the township then, you must have known about it that he was living in the township.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I did not know that Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: But already at that stage he was your informer.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: It is so.

ADV MEMANI: Are you saying that the Committee should believe that you did not know where your informer lived?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable Chairman, I've told the Committee that Mr Ngo lived with Mr Venter.  He first lived at Kwaggafontein and then with Mr Venter.  I don't know at which time he lived in the township.

ADV MEMANI: Now I will go on with the next question, if Mr Erasmus you could do us the favour of switching it off when you're going to cough, we'll be happier.  Now Mr Erasmus, when Mr Ngo left Kwaggafontein to go an live with Mr Venter, did you ask him why he went to live with Mr Venter?  That is now on your version.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I can't think that I specifically asked him about this but he explained to me that he was working at Mr Venter's, he worked in the house, he worked in the garden, and Me Venter gave him a room and that's where he stayed.  That suited me very well.

ADV MEMANI: Now when I asked you...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Memani I'm a little bit lost, I'm not sure which area of the matter of dispute you are dealing with here, I just want to know so I should not be left behind.