Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Sorry, could you perhaps tell me whenthe first one was killed, the first killing took place?

UNKNOWN: I can't remember, so many things happened. I can't remember the date when they were killed.

UNKNOWN: Were there any of them killed before Duvidiand Masusu was killed?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Were there any arrests made in connectionwith those killings?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: But you yourself was arrested in connectionwith one of those killings, wasn't it?

UNKNOWN: Of the killings of the 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes.   But those who killed the people, noone was arrested by that time.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions you would like to putto this witness?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Tulu, I wouldlike you to answer my questions in Sotho.  I think it would gomuch quicker and for the purposes of us to get quickly over this,I would like you just to answer the specific question that I amasking.  Don't give me a long story.  Let us start with the lastquestion concerning what Adv de Jager asked you here, the killingsof 3 million people.  Besides these killings, were you the onethat you were involved in, do you remember a killing of an individualin the community called Alfie(?)?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How did that killing occur?

UNKNOWN: I was in prison by that time.

UNKNOWN: You don't know about it.  Okay, I will leaveit at that.  Would you say that the killings that took place of3 million gang members, other than the one that you were involvedin, were premeditated and planned and then executed, or will yousay that those killings took place spontaneously from actionsof a crowd that had gathered?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I don't think you answered the question. It is a two-legged question.  I want to find out, do you thinkthat there was a planned execution of a 3 million gang member? I am not talking about the killing of George Ramasimong.

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: What are you actually telling us?  Thatthey were not planned, but they happened?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they happened, because it was duringthe time we defended the community (speaking indistinctly)

UNKNOWN: Just to remind you again.  I think it wouldbe better if you respond to my questions in Sosotho.  Just keepon remembering that.  You mentioned that you know of a personcalled Mdowisile Mbelwane.  Besides Mbelwane, do you know of any,not leaders of the ANC, but members of the ANC who were killedby the 3 million gang, members?  Do you know of any?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you remember the names of anyone, ofmembers of the ANC (inaudible) that were killed by the 3 milliongang, besides Mdowisile Mbelwane?

UNKNOWN: Sisi Sifatsa(?).

UNKNOWN: Anyone else that you can remember?

UNKNOWN: That's the person I remember.

UNKNOWN: You were asked by Judge Mgoepe with regardto
arrests made of 3 million gang members.  I want to find out fromyou do you know whether there are any 3 million gang members whoare serving sentences resulting from a killing or some act, unlawfulact arising during that reign of terror as you described?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How many are they?

UNKNOWN: Two.

UNKNOWN: Where are they serving their sentences?

UNKNOWN: Here in Kroonstad.

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether they have applied forindemnity?

UNKNOWN: No, they did not apply.

UNKNOWN: How do you know they have not applied forindemnity?

UNKNOWN: I tried to speak to them on several occasionsbecause we decided that we have to all apply for amnesty.  Theysaid no, they are scared, they will not.

UNKNOWN: When the captain that Adv Mpshe was referringto, when he was asking questions about arrests which were made,he is referring to Captain Derie(?), do you know about his comingto Kroonstad?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now when he made arrests of certain 3 milliongang members, where were you then?

UNKNOWN: In prison.

UNKNOWN: And these people who were arrested, the3 million gang members, where were they taken to, to which prisonto await trial?

UNKNOWN: The very same prison.

UNKNOWN: Did you interact with them, were you stayingin the same cell.

UNKNOWN: No, we stayed in different sections.

UNKNOWN: You never were able to speak with them andtalk about reconciliation or any other thing?

UNKNOWN: There was such a time because our sectionswere very close, only a fence was in between.

UNKNOWN: If my memory serves me well, I could be wrongabout this, but you will have to help us.  There was a memberof the 3 million gang who was killed in gaol.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Who is he?

UNKNOWN: Madsile Ramasimong.

UNKNOWN: How is he related to George Duvidi Ramasimong?

UNKNOWN: He is the last born of the Ramasimong family.

UNKNOWN: Were you in gaol when he was killed?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You don't know how he was killed, or whathave you learned about how he was killed?

UNKNOWN: No, I just hear because he was awaiting trialand I was already serving my sentence.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell us about the arrests that CaptainDerie made, whether you know of any conviction that came as aresult of such arrests?

UNKNOWN: The two that I've already mentioned.

UNKNOWN: According to your knowledge, was the communityfree to make - did the community feel, or did the community comeregularly forward to make statements to the police regarding whatthey know about the activities of the 3 million gang, or werethey intimidated?

UNKNOWN: They were fearful, Sir.

UNKNOWN: You were also asked concerning the timewhen you were sleeping at your girlfriend's home hiding from thepolice and/or the 3 million gang.  In relation to that I am puttingthe following question to you.  Have you in your own personalcapacity, have you ever personally been exposed to an attack bythe 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain when?  Don't give us a longstory please.  Just give us more or less when it happened andshortly what happened?

UNKNOWN: I was at home when Comrade Mdomisile was killed. I realised when my younger sister came from outside she threwthe dish on the floor and when I peeped through the window I sawthe that the 3 million gang members were surrounding my house. We were lucky enough to be ...(intervention).  Actually I confrontedthem ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: You escaped, you were not killed.  Were youinjured?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: Any other incident?

UNKNOWN: In town when we were facing the bus rank,we wanted to catch a taxi and we thought it was a taxi belongingto ordinary members of the community, but when we got nearer themembers of the 3 million gang chased us.

UNKNOWN: They chased you and you ran away.

UNKNOWN: Yes, we ran away.

UNKNOWN: Remember you were asked the question of- you kept on saying repeatedly "we were defending ourselves,we were defending the community", remember that line of questioning? Now I want you to respond to the following.
The incident when you killed Masusu, when Masusu was facing inthe opposite direction, you say he missed stabbing you, he wasalso intoxicated and then you shot him from the back.  At thetime when you shot him in the back, he was not a danger to you. You will agree, because he was facing the other direction.  Imean to you personally.

UNKNOWN: He was still dangerous, because if he couldhave got a chance to come back he would continue doing what hewanted to do.

UNKNOWN: No, I am just talking about the moment,that moment.  When somebody is facing in another direction andyou are having a firearm and you shoot him in the back, at thatmoment, split moment, he was not a danger to you, you will agreeto that?

UNKNOWN: I don't agree with you, Sir.  That doesn'tmean he wasn't a danger to me.  The situation at that time wantedme to do what I did to see that I was protected