Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-12

CHAIRPERSON: Yes that's your evidence, that's your vive voce evidence?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes Mrs Chair.

MR LEOPENG: Let's start from where you are abducting them, then what happened?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: We tortured them.  After we abducted them we tortured them, they didn't want to talk.  I gave Hendrick Christian the firearm, he shot one of the Indians in the leg.  We were asking them were they policemen, they denied.  After that we take them to the open veld near the railway line.  Then I was in possession of a firearm, I then shot the both of them.

MR LAX: Why did you shoot at both of them?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Can you just come again Mr Chair.

MR LAX: Why did you shoot at both of them?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day the reason why I shot them, I wanted to send a message out very clear to the security branch they must stop harassing us and that we are serious, they must stay away from us.

CHAIRPERSON: How would the security branch have known about your action and the subsequent killing of the alleged Indian security policemen?  How would they have known that?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said Mr Chair, the information I had, those Indian guys were from the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but how would the security branch have known that the alleged Indian security policemen had been killed because of their activities within the security police.  How would they have known that?  What measures did you take to ensure that that message was understood loud and clear by the security branch?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day Mr Chair I think it was for them to think if such an act happened like that in the location.

CHAIRPERSON: Come again?  I didn't get your response properly?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I think at that time it was clear from the end of the day they knew we were operating because we were liberating Westbury from the oppression.

CHAIRPERSON: They knew that you were operating?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: We was busy liberating Westbury from the oppression.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you doing that, had you committed something similar to what you had done to these Indian police, alleged Indian policemen, before?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: You see, way back the National Party used to use also the gangs to commit violence acts against us, all those things.

CHAIRPERSON: No, how would they have known that this particular killing was meant to send a clear message that you are now sick and tired of their operations within you.  How would the security branch have known that?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I can't answer that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed.

MR LEOPENG: So in other words Mr Plaatjies, if I understand you correctly, you say the reason why you abducted the alleged two Indian policemen and you subsequently shot and killed one is that you wanted to send a message to other members of the security forces?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LEOPENG: But if I can take the question of Madame Chair further, how would you have achieved your objective in sending a message to other members of the security forces that you were chipped off or you were sick and tired of the activities of the security forces.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well I was sick and tired of the security forces and liberating operation and to set free the people of the coloured township, Westbury.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't responded to his question.  Won't you please repeat your question Mr Leopeng and make sure that he understands it?

MR LEOPENG: Mr Plaatjies, my question is very simple.  I'm saying objective did you want to achieve in abducting and killing the two alleged Indian police officials?

MR LAX: Mr Leopeng, that's not your question.  Your question is how would he achieve his stated purpose of sending a clear message.  In other words, how would that message be communicated to the people he was seeking to reach, to impress upon them that he was making an example of their members.  How did he think that they would get the message, that it was his people that were saying we are sick and tired etcetera.  Do you understand that Mr Plaatjies?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LAX: Try and explain that to us.

CHAIRPERSON: But again I don't know Mr Leopeng, it is within your instruction that you would have been able to get that message across and if it is within your instructions how that message would have been carried across to the security branch.  Your client has just a few seconds ago considered that that question is not something that he can be able to respond to but you have now again repeated my question.  I don't know whether you will be able to elicit some information that I have not been able to because his response to that question when I put it to him was that he was unable to respond to it.
I don't know whether you can take it any further.  You will be informed obviously by the instructions you obtained from Mr Plaatjies.

MR LEOPENG: For the purpose of the evidence I will abandon the question but for the purpose of the record, the question was discussed in detail with the applicant during the consultation.  So for the purpose of this then I will abandon the question and then proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't abandon, I mean if it is within your instructions then you are personally aware that it is a question that he can be able to answer.  Proceed to put it to him in a manner that you know will be able to elicit the kind of response you want from him.  Don't abandon the question, it is a very important question.

MR LEOPENG: Mr Plaatjies, now I'll deal with the question that came across.  What message, how were you going to send a message to other police officials in the community Westbury, after abducting and killing the two alleged Indian police officials?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well as I said the message was clear.  I don't know how to explain it but as I can explain in this way, all because of liberating Westbury of the oppression, to set the people of Westbury free from the white National Party.

MR LAX: Let me try and help you here.  How would the police know that this just wasn't an ordinary criminal act, that somehow their members were just hijacked or some other kind of thing?  How would the police be able to differentiate between the fact this might have been a criminal act as opposed to a political act with a stated political objective of informing them something?  Do you see the distinction we are trying to understand from you?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LAX: I mean you're just assuming that because on your version this was an act of a political group therefore the police would understand it was aimed at them and what we're saying to you is how did you ensure that this is what they understood as opposed to something else that it might have been, like a random criminal act?  Do you see the distinction?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes I see.

MR LAX: Please explain?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day we are not involved in an active criminal acts because most of my cases I never was involved in any criminal act so I think there were some policemen who knew about me there in the location, there in Westbury vicinity.

MR LAX: How would they know it was you, that's the whole point as opposed to some other criminal?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That question I can't answer Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it your intention to publicise this killing in order for the policemen who knew you around your area to be connected to the ANC to connect the killing of the two alleged Indian security policemen to the ANC?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes it was my intention to publicise that Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and how did you intend to publicise it?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: By the way the execution was done Mr Chair, where they were shot.

CHAIRPERSON: But how would it come to the attention of the local policemen who knew you to be an ANC member?