Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-02

MR SAMUELS: Right.  The point is that you didn't spend all the time with him, so therefore you wouldn't know what he did all the time, is that correct?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, he never went to meetings, I am sure of that.

MR SAMUELS: Is it possible that he went to meetings when you didn't know about it?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, what I know is that we used to go to ANC meetings together with him, not IFP meetings.

MR SAMUELS: Yes, that's possible, but my question is, do you know specifically - is it not possible that he could have gone to IFP meetings without you and that you didn't know about it?  Is that possible?

FAITH SEFATSANE: I won't know there, and I'm not sure about that.

MR SAMUELS: And one last question.  You say he was a member of the ANC, do you have any proof of that?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, I do.

MR SAMUELS: Which is?

FAITH SEFATSANE: He's a card-holder of the ANC.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  Do you appreciate that any person can have a card from the ANC, it doesn't mean that they are a member of the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: If somebody paid, registered and took out a card, paid for it, what would that be?

MR SAMUELS: It would just mean that he's a person who holds a card.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely that's membership?

MR SAMUELS: Yes, it does indicate that he would be a member of the party of which he holds a card.  I accept that.  Sorry, one moment please.
	Ma'm, is it possible that your uncle could have been an informer for the IFP and therefore to protect himself, he would have applied for membership to the ANC to cover up?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, I object to this question.  There was no indication from the applicant himself that the person whom they killed was in fact killed because he was an informer.  Unless there is a basis for this question, I object to it.

CHAIRPERSON: But Ms Patel, despite that, it is your witness that raised the issue and created a dispute as to membership.  The testimony of the applicant was that the deceased was a member of the IFP, he used to be seen at meetings and seen during IFP gatherings, armed.  Your witness says now that, the implication is that that could not have been so because he was indeed an ANC card-carrying member.
	It follows then that's it's logical, if both are telling the truth, the question of double-agency arises and hence the question.

MR SAMUELS: I think my question in essence was, is it possible that he could have been an IFP informer even though he did hold an ANC card?

FAITH SEFATSANE: I won't know about that.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

ADV DE JAGER: He went to Newcastle in 1991, when did he return to Thokoza?

FAITH SEFATSANE: February 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did he come back?  Or let's put it this way, why did he go to Newcastle.

FAITH SEFATSANE: He bought a stand and he was building a house in Newcastle.

CHAIRPERSON: And why did he return?

FAITH SEFATSANE: He came back because someone told him that there were houses which were vandalised and people, the owners of those houses should come back and fill up the RDP forms to have their houses reconstructed again.

CHAIRPERSON: So he spent about two months here before he died, in order to fill in the forms?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, that's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: How far from the place where you stayed was his house here in Thokoza, was it in the same extension or what was the position?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Two different extensions, but it's closer because there is just a shop inbetween.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you often visit him at his house?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, we used to go to his house and clean his house.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know the applicant?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, I don't.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know Willy or Willie?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, I don't.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know Joseph Thambo?

MS PATEL: Sorry, could you please repeat that?

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know Joseph Thambo?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, I don't.

ADV DE JAGER: How did you - did you find the body of the deceased, your uncle?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, we did.

ADV DE JAGER: Have you seen his body or didn't you see his body, how did he die?

FAITH SEFATSANE: He was shot.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you remember when that was exactly or round about, when he was shot?

FAITH SEFATSANE: I won't remember very well, but it was round about the 12th of February.  We heard on the 13th of February that he passed away.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you sure about the date, the 13th of February?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, I'm not sure, I'm just estimating that I think he was shot on the 12th and then we heard on the following day, which was the 13th.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja but you mention the two dates, now why do you mention the 12th of the 13th if it's an estimation, or was there something particular about those dates that you remember?  Why do you give us those two dates, why don't you give for instance, the 17th and the 18th of February?

FAITH SEFATSANE: What I remember is that his death certificate had, I think the 12th.

ADV DE JAGER: Couldn't it be March or April, because according to the evidence he was killed round about March or April 1994.  The applicant said so.  Is he correct or not?

FAITH SEFATSANE: I won't know.

ADV DE JAGER: And you say the death - have you seen this death certificate or how do you know it's ...(inaudible)?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, we still have it in the house.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry.
	Do you remember a battle or a shootout when the IFP attacked Polla Park?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, I do remember.

ADV DE JAGER: When was that, could you tell us or don't you know?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, I don't remember which month but I do remember the incident.

ADV DE JAGER: According to the evidence, your late uncle took part in that march and the was a member of the IFP commando.  Can you comment on that?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, he wasn't.  When this attack took place he was in Newcastle.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't he only leave for Newcastle in 1991, and this attack was in 1990?

FAITH SEFATSANE: In 1990 he was in Thokoza, during the taxi violence.  After the taxi violence, he left for Newcastle and returned back in 1994, February.

ADV MOTATA: Ma'm, Mrs or Miss Sefatsane?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Miss.

ADV MOTATA: Miss.  According to the evidence it was an attack by Inkatha and there were several attacks, and I hope you listened to me when I asked the applicant that I didn't want generalities, but he mentioned this specific attack during 1990 where he saw your uncle armed, in the company of the IFP members who attacked Polla Park.  Even though he cannot say he saw your uncle doing XYZ, but houses were burnt in Polla Park.  Did you hear that kind of evidence?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, I heard that.

ADV MOTATA: And what has been placed before us is that they has been violence in Thokoza from 1990, and if I listen to you, you said the violence started in 1991, are you certain that in 1990 there was no violence in Thokoza?

FAITH SEFATSANE: There was violence in 1990 but it settled down and that is when my uncle left for Newcastle.  After he left another violence ...

ADV MOTATA: Now this violence of 1990, which parties were  fighting each other, do you bear knowledge of that?

FAITH SEFATSANE: It was between hostel dwellers and Polla Park residents.

ADV MOTATA: The information we have through evidence, is that it was the IFP and ANC related members who were waging war against each other, and in particular the hostels were perceived to be invested with Inkatha members.  Do you bear that knowledge as a resident of Thokoza?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, it is true.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your uncle married?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, he wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have any children?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, only one.

CHAIRPERSON: How old is that child now?

FAITH SEFATSANE: 21 years.