Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  It's still the continuation of the applications of Mr Anthony Jagga and three others.  Mr Visser, we've just finished with your third applicant.  The ball is still in your court, the fourth application rather.

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson.  I was going to conclude by referring you to some attempts which were made by ourselves to try to obtain more information which could shed light on some of the issues that had been raised in cross-examination here, particularly in regard to the incident which took place and which Mr Jagga confirmed that he had heard about from the Lesotho police, that there was a shooting on a road somewhere and Chairperson, although we haven't got copies, may I read to you a letter written by my attorney, Wagener, on the 8th of November and it is a letter directed to the Commissioner of the Royal Lesotho Mounted Police, Maseru, Lesotho and it says
"Dear Sir, I represent a number of ex-members of the South African Police in their applications for amnesty to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and this letter is addressed to you on behalf of such clients, in a matter that is at present partly heard and which will proceed in Bloemfontein on 13 November 2000.  A dispute has arisen regarding an incident which took place during 1987 within your jurisdiction, namely the following:  (1) towards the end of 1987 and near Mafikeng, members of your department set up an official road block, (2) the driver of one vehicle failed to act correctly and a shoot-out followed killing one passenger and wounding another, (3) the wounded, a certain Atwell Maqhekeza was taken to the Queen Elizabeth II Hospital in Maseru for treatment, (4) however the following day the said injured passenger was shot and killed inside the hospital, (5) the exact date and particulars of the said incident are now in dispute.  In view of the aforesaid, you are kindly requested to forward me on an urgent basis, the following particulars:  (1) the date of the incident, (2) I am told that someone was later arrested and charged for the murder in the hospital, particulars thereof are also required, (3) the particulars of the road block,
if available, are also required.  I look forward to your kind assistance herein."
Mr Jagga, as I am now told it is pronounced, Chairperson, took this matter up with the Lesotho police and discussed it with someone there, I don't know with whom and he was told that a letter has to be written in which the information was formally required and it is for that reason that this letter was addressed to the Commissioner.  Now I'm sad to inform you, Chairperson, that there has been absolutely no reaction and no result.  Mr Jagga, is still attempting to pursue the matter and I've understood from what Mr Malindi said yesterday, that they have also made attempts to pursue the matter, so it seems that the sign on the wall is, the writing on the wall is that we're not going to get an information and it's sad that that is so, because that could have established one way or the other, objectively some part of the evidence which we're now obviously going to have to do without, Chairperson.
	That being so, that is the evidence which we propose to present to you in support of the applications of the four applicants for their amnesty in the present incidents and so to speak, that's the case for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser and you convey the indebtedness, which the Panel appreciates, from the efforts made by your attorney, please convey those sentiments.
	Then it would be for the victims, but to have a better record, Mr Malindi you indicated that you are also making attempts to get certain information, since Mr Visser took the initiative, could you just complete that phase before you tell me what you propose to do next?  That refers to you as well Mr Koopedi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, we have also tried to make further investigations on various aspects of this matter.  At this stage, Chairperson, we prefer not to divulge which annals of this case we are investigating.  A little bit of progress has been made, but we have not been able to finalise consultations with the people who could help in those aspects of this matter.  I may just indicate that we are forming a view and if our opinion is correct, at one or another stage we will, depending on whether we obtain the information we are endeavouring to get, we will bring an application for the re-opening of this matter, that's if in these proceedings it's permissible, but we see no reason why in the normal criminal and civil trials, such provisions are possible and failing which, we will follow other procedures to make sure that whatever we uncover is used for the benefit especially of the victims in this matter.  So the short and long of it Chairperson, is that our ...(indistinct) was, we are unable to divulge even to the Committee at this stage, except if we are required to do so in Chambers.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malindi.  I think we can take it up at a later stage, but what you have just alluded to, it's your right and the victim's right, but may I just bring to your attention that whatever you propose to do in future, you have this at the back of your mind, the last time the Amnesty Committee had a meeting, is that this is the last month where hearings are conducted and in terms of the Act that brought us into being, is that we've got to write a codicil, finalising all the process of the TRC per se and such process or the writing of the codicil, will be completed by March next year and the following month, or the same month, I'm not now very certain of my facts, is that it would be presented to the President and that would be announcing our death in terms of the Act and should there be some process or something whilst this is in process should happen, take into account that in December I'm assuming duties at the TPD, my Judge President is impatient with me, so effectively I'm with the Amnesty Committee up to the end of this month, so I want you just to be aware of some of these things and it is your right, I wouldn't bear upon you or put pressure upon you to divulge what you think is confidential and you are still doing investigations, but I should thank you as well, together with your attorney, that I'm most indebted to you, to the legal representatives, they have approached this matter with all diligence and trying to assist where there are deficiencies, that is most appreciated by my Panel.  Thank you.  Mr Visser has finished.  The ball is now in your court, I don't know what you propose doing.