Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-22

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes they wanted peace, they wanted things to go back to normal, they were trying to explain the alliance between the two parties and telling the people that there was no need at all for the two organisations to be fighting each other.  Bheki himself was supposed to bring back what belonged to the organisation, as a person who had left the organisation but he did not do that.  Those are the things that led to a conflict in the area and at that time ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You did not understand my question.

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: It's not that I do not understand you, I'm actually answering to something else.  Will you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: My question is, the leaders from both parties, ANC and SACP were saying something else and you ordinary members from both organisations, you heard different opinions?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Even though your leaders were preaching reconciliation or peace?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes the leaders, they wanted to have peace in the area but they did not manage because Bheki did not bring back the firearm that belonged to the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: You as ordinary members from both parties had different opinions?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, do you have any questions?

MR MALAN: Yes please Chair.  There are two subjects that I just want to cover briefly, Mr Madlala.  On page 65 of the bundle there's an affidavit by a certain Leon Graham Diederichs.  Your co-applicant also referred to him.  Do you know this Diederichs?  He was in the presence of the victim when the victim was killed.

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: No, I do not know this person.

MR MALAN: Now in his statement he says that he, with Chris Phewa, was at the taxi rank.  They were passing the toilets, they crossed Connor Street to go to the Department of Manpower which was opposite this ANC taxi rank.  Does he describe the area correctly?  Is the Department of Manpower opposite the taxi rank?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: He then continues, he says
"When we passed the ANC taxi rank, Chris Phewa, the deceased, pointed to Black people at the rank and said: 'There are the people who shot my father'"
Do you remember this?  This is in line with your evidence that he said that "those are the people that killed my father", is that correct?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes he said that he's the one who said we killed his father, Chris Phewa that is.

MR MALAN: Where were you at the time, were you sitting there at the taxi rank?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes, I was at the rank at the time.

MR MALAN: And you were sitting there, he says there were four of you sitting at the taxi rank?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: No, I was not sitting there.  I was just standing, I was with Happy, the two of us.  We were waiting for a car, a certain car at the time.

MR MALAN: Were you not sitting, were you standing when you were waiting?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Are you sure about that?  You're sure you never sat there waiting?  Could it be right that when they first passed you were sitting down?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: No, we were not sitting down, we were standing waiting.  I remember very well.

MR MALAN: Then this Diederichs continues, he said that Phewa said, that Chris Phewa said this out loud and they heard what he had said so he talked loudly when he said
"There are the people who killed my father."
Did he say it loudly?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes, he said that loudly because we could hear him saying that because an argument or some argument came up during the time.

MR MALAN: Now tell us about this argument because you talked about a squabble and you talked about an exchange of words.  What was the argument that ensued?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: He was insulting us and he said we killed his father and he was insulting us referring to us as dogs who were with Mkhize and saying that we were nothing and he would say anything that he wanted to say to make sure that he was insulting us.  There was that confusion or exchange of words and we shot at him and we killed him.

MR MALAN: Well he talked about - he said you killed his father, he said you were dogs, ANC's dogs and he talked about Mkhize and then you continue, you say
"He said anything he wanted to say."
Now what did he say?  Was there an argument?  Did this continue for some time or not?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: That did not take long because even where he is now he knew very well that he was at the ANC rank where only ANC people were allowed to board a taxi.  I don't even know what is it that he was looking for there because he was our enemy at the time.

MR MALAN: Ja but you see they believed that they were part of an alliance in some way, I mean in any event Diederichs there's no indication that he was political, let me just make this clear.  Diederichs says he didn't know you, he knew Mngomezulu which he refers to in the statement here as Ntete but I guess it's Tete.  Is that Mngomezulu's name?  Tete?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Is it Nteti?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Nteti.  What I can say about that Diederichs, there's nothing much I can say about him.  The only person that I can talk ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: No, no, you're not hearing my question.  I want to know who is Ntete?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Ntete is my co-accused.

MR MALAN: Ja, your co-applicant, Mr Mngomezulu, it's his nickname?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: It is just a nickname, Ntete.

MR MALAN: Yes, now he says he knew him well because he says they played soccer together?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I wouldn't know about it.

MR MALAN: You wouldn't know?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: They knew each other but I was not a soccer player, I used to see him.  There was nothing much between me and him.

MR MALAN: Now let me just ask you, at that time would the soccer team have members of the Amabuvo and the ANC in the same team?  Would they play soccer together?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: There were no soccer playing at the time, there was no sports at all because of the conflicts at the time.

MR MALAN: Then he continues in his statement, then he says one of the men - two of the men had firearms.  He said one of the men and this is then Mngomezulu
"We played soccer together and another man with a firearm was not known to me.  When they were approximately 6 metres away from us, both of them started shooting."
In other words he says after the deceased had referred to you as the people who had killed his father, you approached them and at a distance of 6 metres you fired the first shots.  Is he lying?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes, we did that, we fired.

MR MALAN: You fired, from a distance of about 6 metres?
In other words about from where you are to the chair, is it that far or can you point to us the distance where you first started shooting?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I fired from a distance like from where I'm sitting now to the lady who is sitting on the other side.  My partner fired and his firearm jammed and after that I started shooting.  I cannot say for sure how many metres.

MR MALAN: Just for the record, Ms Moodley, can we be agreed that the applicant, the witness is pointing a distance of close to 10 metres, 10 paces?

MS MOODLEY: 10 paces, yes.

MR MALAN: Now then he continues and he says that Phewa fell to the ground, he managed to get up onto both knees leaning with one of this hands on the pavement.  Then he says both of you came up to him and when you were approximately one and a half metres, that's a pace and a half from him, you shot him again, is that correct?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I came shooting for the second time, I fired only once.  I did not fire on intervals, different intervals, I used four bullets and I fired only once.  I did not shoot at intervals, I just fired only once.