Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well, with due respect Judge, regardlessof which statement one is referring to ...

JUDGE WILSON: I just want toknow why you introduced the other one.

<UNKNOWN>: ecause I was underthe
bona fide impression that that is the statement that I wanted todeal with and that is the statement that was rejected, if it was a mistake...

JUDGEWILSON: It was a mistake, we can just ignore it?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well,but I am nevertheless pleased with the answers that the witness gave in regardeven to this statement that was apparently made to Segal, because I wanted totie up the names that are mentioned in the statement on pages 7, 8 and 9 withwhat is found in his statement to this

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee. I don't have any further questions,Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, I am in somewhat of a difficult situation at thisstage. I have been approached by Mr Lorenzo Smith, who is one of the victimswhom I represent, he has advised that he is due to leave for

<UNKNOWN>: loemfontein atone o'clock. We did not anticipate that we would not be able to lead his evidencebefore this time. He has asked me to request the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee whether there isany possibility of some arrangement being made or some plan being made to allowhim to in fact give his evidence before he leaves at one o'clock and whethersome departure from the normal procedure would be considered by the

<UNKNOWN>: ommitteein these circumstances? He will naturally abide by whatever finding the

<UNKNOWN>: ommitteemakes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to that Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: No, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, you may do so, call your witness.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Iam indebted to the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee for its indulgence and to my learned friends. Wethen call Mr Lorenzo Smith.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please. We will have to placeMr Smith somewhere near a microphone.

<UNKNOWN>: an he take one of these microphones please.Mr Smith, will you please stand.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. What are your full names?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: My full names are LorenzoVictor Smith.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thankyou Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Mr Smith, it is correct that you are a parishioner at the StJames church in Kenilworth, is that correct?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE How long have you been a parishioner there?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Plusminus five years.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you were in the church on the eveningof the attack on that church in 1993?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: an you tell the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee something about the make-up of thecongregation in St James?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Well the congregation, the churchis open to all nationalities, irrespective to colour, creed, etc. We go thereto worship God and that is all that we do.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What is yourreaction to the suggestion that the attack on the St James church was justifiedas being an attack against White people?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I feel that the churchis a place of sanctuary and looking at the way it was constructed, it was preplannedand being preplanned, the church itself has got no political aspect as to whatis actually put across the board. If it was that which I see looking at it,whoever came to the church to preplan it, they could actually identify the amountof people and the different nationalities that were at the church at any giventime on a Sunday evening or any other evenings.

<UNKNOWN>: an youdescribe what those nationalities and groups of people were?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: We have Russians, we have Muslims, we have

<UNKNOWN>: hristians,

<UNKNOWN>: lack, White,

<UNKNOWN>: hinamen,you name it, it attends the church.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you say that isso on any evening at the church?

<UNKNOWN>: t any given time of worship,you will find that the same mixed crowd attending the church.

<UNKNOWN>: nd on the night that the attack took place, what was the make-up of the congregationon that evening?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Man, it was similar although the weather allowingmany people not to attend, but nevertheless it was the same sort of amount,90 percent was mixed in the church.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I understand that eveningyou had a large contingent of Russian sailors.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: We had.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE What role did they play at the church?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: To hearthe gospel.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Were they regularly in attendance there?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Yes, for about three years they were regular attenders there.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Would it have been evident to someone going into the church thatthere were Russian people present, were any adjustments made to the ceremonyitself to allow for them?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Yes, at a later stage, the servicewould actually come to a pause where the Russians would actually leave the serviceand would have a special service, translated in Russian at a smaller sort ofhall with an interpreter in English.

<UNKNOWN>: an you describewhat the missionary policies of the church were?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: To save soulsand to preach the gospel.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did you do any missionary workoutside the Kenilworth area?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I belong to the organisation withRussians at one stage, my late wife and myself.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What aboutin any of the poorer areas of the Western

<UNKNOWN>: ape?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Well, on a normalbasis I would go out, whoever I would meet, colleagues, workmates and speakto them about the good news of salvation.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did the churchperform any missionary work in the township areas?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: They do.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE What was the nature of that work?

<UNKNOWN>: gain to preachthe gospel of salvation.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I understand also that the churchhas affiliated churches inside some of the township areas?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Theydo.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Where are they?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I could be - I knowof a few of them, there is one is Khayelitsha, there is one in what is the place'sname, Lavender Hill and they have many other smaller churches around too.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Do people from those churches ever visit at the Kenilworth, StJames church?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: They do at given times.

<UNKNOWN>: nddo you from St James, visit those churches in the townships?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: We do.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What is your comment on the suggestion or any suggestionthat maybe made that the applicants as victims of apartheid or as representativesof apartheid, were therefore justified in furthering the struggle against apartheidand in attempting to achieve the ends of that struggle, in committing this attackupon the church?

<UNKNOWN>: gain I do emphasise the point that the churchis a neutral place, a place of worship and it is open to all nationalities.Why choose a church of that nature to have the grievances with?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you consider what happened at the church that evening, to be a gross violationof your human rights?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I do.

<UNKNOWN>: an you describebriefly what happened?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: It was a normal evening, Sunday evening.Unfortunately we were blessed with a thunder storm, that many fellow