Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-02

CHAIRPERSON: I'm Judge Pillay and I'm going to ask my colleagues and the various representatives to announce themselves for the purposes of the record.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Denzil Potgieter.

ADV SIBANYONI: I'm J B Sibanyoni.

MR MAPOMA: I'm Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Lundi Nompozolo for the applicant.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I'm calling the application of Moses Vuyani Mamani, application number 5265/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Nompozolo?  Is this the applicant?

MR NOMPOZOLO: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.  Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, first let me apologise for starting so late.  I have sent one of my articled clerks at about 8 o'clock to go and fetch the applicants so that they may depose to an affidavit which I have drafted on their instructions.  Now there was a communication breakdown between the applicant and my articled clerk.  I left my office at about ten to nine and I learnt about half past nine that that was the time they met, the applicant and my articled clerk.  That is the reason for the delay, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the actual reason for the delay?  Are you saying the communication breakdown was the reason for the delay?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, that is correct, Chairperson, the communication breakdown between them.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, from certain quarters in this country they always point fingers at our people from this end of the country, the Eastern Cape.  I really don't believe that our people are incapable of telling time and doing normal things like normal people do.  I'm getting tired of people saying in the Eastern Cape we're always delayed because of communication gaps, breakdowns and we can't tell time, etc.  The time has come for us to behave like other people and be punctual when we must be punctual.  I hope you can carry that over to your clients.  We're not busy playing games here.
	Mr Mamani, what language would you choose to speak?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Xhosa.

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, before you attorney carries on, which hotel are you staying at?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Holiday Inn.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were you late?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I didn't know at what time the hearing was going to start and the person who came I saw him at about half past nine and he told us that we were needed to attend because Mr Nompozolo is expecting us.

CHAIRPERSON: You received notice of this hearing, not so?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the notice say?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It said that the hearing is going to take place from the 1st up to the 5th, it will start at about 9 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, at this venue.

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are an applicant in one of these hearings?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary for you to be collected like a little boy or a little child and be brought here, why couldn't you see to it that you were here yourself?  You were not in jail, you were not kept back.

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I do not know this area, I don't even know the place that I am right now.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you have any future applications that you have to appear for and not necessarily before me, you see to it that you are here on time, do you understand?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: After all you are the person that's making the application, do you understand?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: There are many other people who need to have their hearings done, in particular those who are still languishing in jail and we haven't got time to waste.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, the applicant has deposed to an affidavit and I think for the purposes of the record I will read the affidavit and we ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why were we not blessed with a copy thereof?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I once more apologise on what they did this morning, they went to my office, the applicants, and they were only given the original to go on commission whereas the instruction I gave was that they must be given the affidavit and the copies and then they can only be commissioned by the police here.  Instead they were only given, Chairperson, just the original.  Chairperson, the copies are on the way, I have arranged that they be dispersed to here as soon as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, it doesn't end there, why wasn't this affidavit and your work completely like last week?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Chairperson, we had a problem, we only got instructions last week and the applicants only arrived yesterday at about 9 o'clock from Cape Town.  The applicants are from Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: And you could not contact the applicants before then?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I was told Chairperson that the applicants don't have money they will have to be paid for by the TRC and to be booked for in the hotel by the TRC and they only arrived yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Chairperson.
	Truth and Reconciliation Commission and the matter between Moses Vuyani Mamani, applicant.
"I, the undersigned, Moses Vuyani Mamani" ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why can't he give that evidence himself, can't you lead him from the affidavit?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I can do that Chairperson, thank you.
	Mr Mamani, is it correct that you made an affidavit in this matter?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And can you tell the Commission where were you born?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was born in Cape Town.

MR NOMPOZOLO: On which date?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was born on the 4th March 1968.

MR NOMPOZOLO: How many are you in the family?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Four children.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where did you grow up?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was in Cape Town, I grew up at Ilingi?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where is Ilingi?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Ilingi is just outside Queenstown.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where did you start your primary education?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I started at Ilingi.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you finish your education at Ilingi?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: No in 1979 I went back to Cape Town, I beg your pardon, in 1977 I went back to Cape Town.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, at Cape Town what was your highest standard passed?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I went up to Standard 7 in Cape Town.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes and what is your highest standard passed at school?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I left school after passing standard 9.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, did you go into exile?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When was that?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: From 1987.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, are you a member of a liberation movement?  Were you a member of a liberation movement?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes I was a member of the African National Congress and it's military wing uMkhonto weSizwe, that is.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, when did you join uMkhonto weSizwe?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I joined in 1985 here in South Africa.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now why did you go into exile?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: After becoming a member of MK in 1985 I realised that it was difficult for me to operate as a member of the organisation and the police knew that we were involved therefore we were told that we should cross the borders.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now did you receive military training?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was trained in Angola.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did you come back to South Africa?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I came back to South Africa in 1991.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you still recall the incident at Frankfort?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission what happened?  I'm sorry, Chairperson, when did that take place?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: That took place in 1992, in August 1992.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, what happened?