Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

MR PRIOR: And then who, the female person got out.  We know that was Mrs Brummer, and Mr Schroeder, the driver, he also got out of the bakkie.  Is that correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Then you could see he was a Coloured man?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No.

MR PRIOR: But you could see it was a female, a white female?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They were from a distance, I say, I would say more than hundred metres.

MR PRIOR: But you were chasing them all the time.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The time I was shooting them I have to stopped so that I could aim.

MR PRIOR: And they were running away?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They were running away.

MR PRIOR: They weren't posing any threat to you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to clarify something.  Mr Prior has been asking you about Mr Schroeder and Mrs Brummer.  Were they the only two people who got out?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I could not see.  The time when they were stopping the car, there was this approaching car.  It was not, when it stopped, the approaching car it was not far from them, where they stopped.  So that's how they were able to get to the second car.

CHAIRPERSON: But how many of them were there that got out?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: When we reached the car that they abandoned there was no one inside it.

CHAIRPERSON: How many got out.  It's an easy question.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: All the person were on the car?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, how many were there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know how many were there.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, one was the woman who was dead in the other vehicle, right?  One was the man who was shot, left lying on the road, right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then there was another man who you later passed as he was going along the road.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Then I will say maybe, I would take it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that no so ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That there were three.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you know how many people got out of the car you were shooting at?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I, I only ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you pay attention?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The time they were stopping the car and they were getting out of it, there was this approaching car which was not far from them and it stopped for them, and they get inside that car.

CHAIRPERSON: But only one of them got into that car, didn't they?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Only one of them got into the approaching car, didn't they?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: All of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Who of them got into the approaching car?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think so.

MR PRIOR: Couldn't you see the driver of that car was an African person?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: From their position, from their position, I was not able.

MR PRIOR: Well then how did you know you were shooting at which people if you couldn't see, even recognise the difference between a white person and a black person?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I trusted my Comrade who gave me the signal.

MR PRIOR: So then to go back to my previous ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: In passing through me I noticed that they were white occupants inside the car.

MR PRIOR: Okay, let's leave it, it's irrelevant.  So when that vehicle passed your position, you saw that there were white people in the vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.  I take it they were white people, those were inside it.

MR PRIOR: You just accepted they were white?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You see, we know Mr James Tsemane was a black man, I mean he stopped to assist these people who you were intent on killing there.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That was not the car that passed us.

MR PRIOR: Now the vehicle that stopped to assist the female person, Mrs Brummer, running away and Mr Schroeder, presumably.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We learned that when we approached the car and we passed through it, that one of the dead person was a African one.

MR PRIOR: Yes, but he came from the opposite, he came from Sterkspruit?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: He had to stop.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: The female got into the vehicle.  Did you see that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That wasn't a taxi, it was a bakkie, it was an open bakkie, sorry, with a canopy.  If you look at the photographs, bundle "B", page 23 and 24, 23 and 24, Mr Chairman.  But maybe the situation needs clarification.
The first vehicle, the vehicle that you attacked, having received the signal from you co-applicant, Kleintjie, came to a standstill, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: The occupants then got out and ran away.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You followed after them, shooting at them?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They went to another car.

MR PRIOR: We getting there.  You followed after the shooting?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As they were running, we didn't shoot them.  We were chasing them.

MR PRIOR: I see.  A vehicle then approached from Sterkspruit.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was not far from them.

MR PRIOR: Is that the vehicle we see on photograph, at page 23?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think it's the one.

MR PRIOR: A bakkie.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: A pick-up.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think it's the one.

MR PRIOR: That vehicle then stopped and you say all, both people got into the vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think so.

MR PRIOR: I want to suggest to you only Mrs Brummer got into the vehicle.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Okay.

MR PRIOR: And I'll tell you later, a little, a little while later, I'll tell you why a little later.  That vehicle then turned around, is that right?  It did a U-turn and then went towards Sterkspruit?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you shot at that vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That's the vehicle that Mr Tsemane was driving?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Okay.

MR PRIOR: That vehicle then went off the road and then went down the bank, is that correct?  At the bridge, is that right?  And you say you went up to that vehicle and saw the driver was dead and the female was dead?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I presume.

MR PRIOR: You never went close, you looked from the road?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I presume that they were dead.

MR PRIOR: You never went down to the vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was in the position to see.

MR PRIOR: From the road way, from the bridge?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Just next to the bridge and as I'm passing through the bridge.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you never climbed of the bridge and went down to where the vehicle was lying?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, yes.

MR PRIOR: And then you saw Mr Schroeder in the road?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And was he still alive at that stage?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I couldn't say.

MR PRIOR: Well why not?  Was he breathing?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I didn't listen to his pulse.

MR PRIOR: But when you went up to him, was he lying on his face, on his back or what?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think he was having full of blood in his face.

MR PRIOR: And was he struggling, was he moving, was he quiet?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was motionless.

MR PRIOR: Who had shot him just before that?  Had anybody shot him?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think it was Scorpion.

MR PRIOR: So, was that before you, was that after you had observed the vehicle that had gone off the road, you've said you presumed they were dead, the two occupants of that vehicle.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: What I say?

MR PRIOR: You said you observed from the road way, from the bridge you could see that the people inside the bakkie that went of the road, that was Mrs Brummer and Mr Tsemane, they were dead.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You then paid attention to the other person, that's Mr Schroeder, Schroeder. I'm just giving them names, the man lying on the tar, the surface?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He not so closely to the car.

MR PRIOR: Okay, but you then went to him?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you say he'd already been shot by Scorpion?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.