Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am not interested in the fact that they didn't complain Mr Managa.  I am interested in what is appearing here in your application form which you completed with the assistance of your legal representative.  You stated as a fact, as a fact, that no person who was ever interrogated by you, in particular the persons alluded to in paragraph 15, that none of them were ever seriously assaulted when you knew that you had severely assaulted them.  You knew as a fact because you are the one who conducted those assaults.  You committed the assaults.  You knew that it was just not a question of minor assaults.  You have testified before us that save for Mr Mahumela and Mr Mahamba the others were severely beaten by you.  You knew then, when you were completing this application form, that you had seriously assaulted these persons.  Why did you put in an incorrect information on your application form on facts which were within your personal knowledge?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well anyway as we are saying this we are putting it across to the Committee as to what happened.  I might have said then that or I am not disputing that, I am telling you exactly that they were severely beaten.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Then why didn't you reflect that in your application form when you knew you had to disclose the truth?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I knew that I had to disclose the truth - well it might have escaped my attention.  I don't think really I can make anything perfect.  That might have escaped my attention.  Anyway I did beat them severely I can't deny that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Managa this civil case that was brought by Reverend Posiwa were you a defendant in that matter?  Were you cited as a defendant?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't recall.  Anyway there were a number of names that were put.

CHAIRPERSON: So in that case Reverend Posiwa was the plaintiff.  I take it probably the responsible Minister in the Venda government was a defendant and then a number of individuals were also defendants, is that the position?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And you can't remember if you were one of the defendants?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I might have been part of a group because we were responsible for beating them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Because you also made the statement on page 164, was that made for purposes of that civil case for addressing the issues in that civil case? 104, 104, sorry.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember how much you were sued for?  What was the plaintiff claiming in that matter for damages?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well they were claiming for damage, that was severe assault that they endured and the punishment and the assault.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what was your objective in telling an untruth in this statement?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well with regard to the statement I do agree that it was a false statement because we were doing it due to the claims that now, it was not really truly reflected as to how they were assaulted and things like this.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to that civil case?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't tell you exactly as to what resulted thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any political objective in making a false statement and if so what was it?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Could you repeat the question please.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any political objective in making that false statement and if so what was it?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well just to support the fact that the claim should not be against us, that's just what I can say.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Nothing thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg any questions arising?
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga any questions arising?
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Managa that concludes your testimony.  You may stand down.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI