Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: How did you form part of the closed meeting or the secret meeting?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, it was on an open air piece of ground, that's where the meetings were held and you could hear what was said but you were not present all the time because you moved around so you would have moved out of earshot, you couldn't hear what was said all the time and during consultation with my advocates we received some more clarity about this whole matter in order to bring the truth to the panel.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But that's the whole point I'm trying to make, sir.  You did not hear personally at the meetings, only afterwards you heard it from other people, is that correct?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, I was aware of all these things.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Page 92 - Mr Barnard - was he a member of the AWB or was he member of the Ystergarde?

J H VLOK: Yes that's correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Which rank did he have in the Ystergarde?

J H VLOK: Cliffie was a Captain in the Ystergarde and a Colonel in the Wen Kommando.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And in the AWB structure in Ventersdorp?

J H VLOK: There he was my senior, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What was his job there at head office at Ventersdorp?

J H VLOK: He was a colonel, he was addressed as a colonel and his instructions were that he did correspondence and he worked closer together with Terreblanche himself and he also performed other tasks which were given to him by the leader or by the generals who were there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Let's move to paragraph 26 - that's page 97.  The men were taken to the game farm in Magaliesberg.  From there the members would have had to protect the borders of the future Volkstaat as well as the farmers during the coming elections, is that correct?

J H VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So that's why you went to the game farm?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson and also that further instructions would be given later on.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, the impression I've had all the time is that the group went to the game farm in order to protect the borders as well as the farmers in that vicinity - that was the main purpose?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, but later we would have received further instructions, that's how Brigadier van der Merwe conveyed it.  Further instructions would be given at a later stage.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, there would have been later instructions but your first main instruction was, go to the game farm, protect the borders and protect the farmers in that vicinity, later you would receive further instructions?

J H VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Why did you go to Ventersdorp?

J H VLOK: Sorry Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you go to Ventersdorp or why did you think you were going there?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, we were told that we're going to make war in order to obtain a Volkstaat and it would be enforced and we'd demand it from the government of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: This is before you went to Ventersdorp, so you went to Ventersdorp to go and wage a war?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you this?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, it was discussed at meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: You got a call up instruction saying you're going to Ventersdorp then you're going to go there, is that correct?

J H VLOK: I was at head office already, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the reason that you were given why you'd go to Ventersdorp or why you're going to gather there?

J H VLOK: To wage war, to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: And going to Magaliesberg was part of this instruction to wage war?

J H VLOK: It was part of the general plan.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you were told you were going to make war in order to enforce this Volkstaat, what did you think, what was going to happen.  Are you going to plant bombs or are you going to wage a normal war?

J H VLOK: The way I saw it, Chairperson, was that acts of terror would be committed and if the army or the government of the day tried to force us to let go of the idea of a war we would have protected our country and the Volkstaat.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Vlok, you said you went to head office from Ventersdorp.

J H VLOK: Chairperson, I was already at Ventersdorp.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Where?

J H VLOK: Ventersdorp, I worked at head office.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So you worked permanently at head office?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Day after day?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Office hours?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Who told you to go to Ventersdorp or to go to the game farm.

J H VLOK: I wasn't at the game farm, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Were you not called up?

J H VLOK: I was already in Ventersdorp, Chairperson, I was working there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You moved up together with the men, where did you get together the first time, at the ...[inaudible]?

J H VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Who sent you to the ...[inaudible] who gave the instructions?

J H VLOK: Leon van der Merwe.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you were told that you did not have to go to head office the next day?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, I was tasked by General Leon van der Merwe to continue with my tasks whilst the others moved up to the game farm.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: With your tasks at head office?

J H VLOK: That's correct Chairperson, to ensure the security of Mr Terreblanche and the head office and the personnel who was working there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Okay, thank you.  I also understood it in such a way the whole time you've been working in Ventersdorp, you were working there as a employee of the AWB?

J H VLOK: That is correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What was your monthly salary?

J H VLOK: Five hundred Rand.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Per month?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And your task was to protect the leader and the people at head office.  You yourself was not called up as such?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, I was called up and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe told me that we're going to be part of the total struggle and war which would be waged.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That's the point, sir.  At this time there's not a total struggle, people are being sent to Magaliesberg to the game farm in order to protect the borders of the country - of the Volkstaat and these were your words, paragraph 26.

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, but at that stage I was tasked to ensure the security of head office and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe told me to be on standby in case other tasks were given to me.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So later he would have given you orders and the further task that he asked you to do was that you must accompany people from Ventersdorp to Koper Myburgh's farm?

J H VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sunday the 24th, this is according to paragraph 27 of your affidavit - you were at head office, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes I was in Ventersdorp, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What time did Koper Myburgh arrive there?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, I cannot actually remember the exact time but it was late morning or almost afternoon.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Was it round about 12 o'clock that day?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, I cannot tell you exactly.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now Koper Myburgh arrived there, Clifton Barnard arrived there and Etienne le Roux also arrived there?

J H VLOK: That is correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you say if I understand you correctly that the AWB trailer was hooked to Mr Le Roux's vehicle?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.