Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-15

JUDGE DE JAGER: The next matter would be?

CHAIRPERSON: Mafu.  We will proceed with the Mafu application.  Right, before we do so I want to deal with two other matters that have been set down for today.  First is the application of Joseph Ngema.  I gather there are a number of people here today who are interested in hearing the Ngema application.  Unfortunately, we cannot proceed with that application today and I do not want to put you to the inconvenience of coming and perhaps waiting all of tomorrow.  So we are now going to adjourn the Ngema application until 9.30 on the morning of Thursday 17th, that is this Thursday and I don't know if there are still people here or whether they are waiting outside now, I gather transport home will be arranged for them and arrangements will be made for them to be here on Thursday.  That is so isn't it?
	The second matter is the Nyawuza matter which also is set down for this afternoon which will not be able to be concluded today and we have, after discussion, resolved that this one should be adjourned till 2 o'clock tomorrow afternoon, that is one Wednesday, 16th at 2 o'clock.  Are the persons interested in the Nyawuza application here?
	Right, those two will be adjourned and we will now proceed with the Mafu application.  Would you please announce who is appearing for whom?

MR DEHAL: Thank you Judge, I appear for the applicant, Mr Mafu.  My name is Roshan Dehal from the firm Dehal Incorporated of Durban.  Thank you.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I appear on behalf of the victims, Mr Panday, initial S.  Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, Zuko Mapoma, Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee remains the same, myself, Mr de Jager and Mr Sibanyoni.  We will now proceed with the applicant.  Are you leading the applicant first?

MR DEHAL: I am indeed.  May I just make one comment which is unrelated?  I thought Mr Mapoma would have raised this with you, he actually intended to do so.  The two matters that you've mentioned, Mr Chairperson, still exclude one matter.  That leaves us still with one matter and that is the matter of Tom Madlala.  This is a matter which is scheduled to begin tomorrow morning.  I think the large crowd that is present here is actually present in support of the Tom Madlala matter.  They contain, they consist mainly of prisoners.  Now the warders and the senior members of Westville Prison are present here and have expressed their concern that they need to take these prisoners back including the present applicant who is presently in prison at Westville.  Apparently they can't bring two vehicles, they will have to bring one vehicle, also apparently given the crowd, they would need a bus.  So apparently they need to get off between by 4 o'clock latest.  Thank you.
	Mr Chairperson, now in the Mafu matter, I have a statement prepared.  I have asked my assistant to circularise a copy.  I hope that the Committee members do have a copy and the other two gentlemen.  Would that be marked Exhibit A?

CHAIRPERSON: My colleague has suggested to me that if they are anxious to return some of them to Westville Prison they could take one group now and then return to take the present applicant back.  It's not very far from here.

MR DEHAL: Indeed, it's a brilliant suggestion.  In fact it's the very one that I made to them but apparently so fraught is Westville with red tape so I'm told that they would only send one vehicle and not two for they don't have any men there.   Apparently break off at 3, today is a pay day as well at Westville and all sorts of other problems that compound the issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we're merely trying to assist them, that if they wanted to get away with I think there are five people I can see, they could have done so but if they'd rather sit here until 4
o'clock?

MR DEHAL: Yes indeed, well thanks for the suggestion.  Just may Mr Mafu be sworn in?  He is Zulu speaking.

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: (sworn states)

MR DEHAL: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mafu, sorry may I hand to you a bundle - sorry Chairperson, I'm just seated away from the applicant so I'm just handing over my bundle, it's the only bundle I have, I'm hoping I get it back.  Mr Mafu, do you see the application for amnesty on the first few pages, I don't have the bundle here so I can't tell you the page numbers and I'm referring now to the ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Mapoma, haven't you got a spare bundle to give to the witness?

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: You can take one of mine.

MR DEHAL: You will notice in that bundle there's a loose sheet at page 35 I think it is, that is because they'd left out the printed page 13, that's the ...(indistinct)

MR DEHAL: Thank you, I had the same problem, thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mafu on pages 1, 2, 3 right up to page 10 is an application for amnesty completed in the Zulu language.  Do you confirm that that is your application for amnesty completed in your handwriting in the Zulu language?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Yes that is correct.

MR DEHAL: However, you tell me you have a problem on page 9 in that that signature is not your signature but you have no problems in confirming the correctness of the application as correct?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: That is the problem.

MR DEHAL: And whilst we're on the application itself, if you look at page 14, the last paragraph, page 14 of the bundle before you, do you see the last paragraph at the bottom which says
"But if Inkudusenti, that's the deceased, did not come to me and say he's the one who killed my brother, Sibonsile and my dad, he wasn't going to die or died"
Do you see that paragraph?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Yes I do.

MR DEHAL: Is it correct that your instructions to me is that you never said that and that if you look at the comparable paragraph in the Zulu language there is nothing of that sort ever mentioned in your application either in that paragraph or anywhere else in your application?

MR PANDAY: Sorry Mr Chairperson, before my learned friend will go any further ...(intervention)

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Yes I do not know what is written in that form.

MR PANDAY: As I was saying Chairperson, before my learned friend will go any further I think it will be fair enough for us to get the interpretation of the last paragraph in the Zulu application as opposed to the translation because neither one of us are conversive at the moment in Zulu, to understand what the content of the last paragraph is that he is referring to in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Well before we do that is it not correct that the whole of paragraph 10(b) which appears on page 6 has not been correctly translated onto the English version on page 14.  I say this not on the basis of my detailed knowledge of Zulu but merely on slightly half way down the page, a little bit more than halfway down the page 6, one sees the words "1987 June 16th".  I do not see them on page 14?

MR DEHAL: Indeed, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So if there's going to be a translation I think it would perhaps be more assistance to get the whole of paragraph 10(b) translated.

MR DEHAL: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And we could perhaps request someone to do that during the course of this afternoon?

MR DEHAL: Perhaps yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you look around you will see that somebody is going to attend to it.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.
	So for that reason Mr Mafu, is it correct that you do not confirm the correctness of the English translation of the application from pages 11 to 17?  Do you agree with me?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Yes I do.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  You have made a statement, a copy of which you have before you, do you see the statement, a three page statement?  Do you mind getting that in front of you?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Exhibit A.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit A.