Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Absolutely.

MR MARTINI: Would you also agree that once the bomb has been activated, it would also be dangerous for somebody to fiddle with that mine?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Extremely.

MR MARTINI: Now you say you armed the mine, the bomb and once you armed it you put it in Mr Hardien's boot - sorry, forget Hardien's boot, I don't think that was your evidence, you put it in the boot of a car.

CHAIRPERSON: It was put in a sack.

MR LAX: It was put in a bag.

CHAIRPERSON: Or a bag and then into the boot.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Sorry, you put it in a bag and then in the boot of a car.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: So were you the last person that dealt with this bomb before it was placed in the boot?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, Sir.

MR MARTINI: And once it was placed in the boot, what then happened?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At this stage Mr Hardien departed from us in his vehicle with the mine, or the bomb in the back of the boot.

MR MARTINI: He departed alone without you or Mr van Zyl?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: So once he departed, neither you nor Mr van Zyl had any contact with, physical contact with that bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And your recollection is as the last person who touched it, there were no nails, either 4 pounds or 4 kilograms of nails attached to that bomb.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: None.

MR MARTINI: Right.  Just one more question which I had a similar difficulty as Mr Lax in understanding is, Mr Barnard - just let me understand this discussion, Mr Barnard alleges that Mr van Zyl had told him that he planted 4 kilograms or 4 pounds, I recall kilograms, but let's leave it at the number 4, on this bomb and that according to Mr Barnard, he then discussed this with you, in other words he told you about this discussion which Mr van Zyl had with him.  Now do you recall such a discussion, I mean the discussion where Mr Barnard said to you: "Hey, Mr van Zyl says you wanted to put 4 kilograms, he put 4 kilograms of nails on this bomb in order to ensure people were killed"?  Do you recall that discussion?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Honourable Chairperson, I have said at various times that I cannot recall the discussion.  I cannot deny that it did take place, but I cannot recall the discussion.

MR MARTINI: I'll tell you why, correct me if I'm wrong Mr Botha, I made a note here when you were asked earlier and my note is, what I recall you did say you don't recall such a discussion, but if this was your evidence earlier, just correct me if I'm wrong, you said: "If such discussion did take place, I do not believe that Mr van Zyl would have told Barnard that."  Is that your evidence?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It could be so, yes.

MR MARTINI: That's my note.  So when you mean "that", did you mean if such discussion had taken place, you wouldn't have believed that Mr van Zyl would have said to Barnard: "I put 4 kilograms of nails on the bomb"?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And the reason why you would say you don't believe that, is it because to your knowledge, that is in fact what did not take place?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right.

MR MARTINI: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Martini.  Mr Williams, are you going to be asking any questions?

MR WILLIAMS: I've got no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hockey.

MR HOCKEY: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Botha, is it correct that at an in-house, the in-house is where you discuss the execution of projects, is that right?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: You were not present at the in-house where the Athlone bomb was discussed, is that right?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: At how many in-houses were you present where the execution of your projects were discussed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At one.

MR HOCKEY: And which one was that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The one regarding the Rosscam incident.

MR HOCKEY: Who was present at that in-house?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The Regional Manager, Mr Wouter Basson, me and Joe Verster.

MR HOCKEY: Now the reason why I ask you that is because Mr Joe Verster denied that he gave authority for that project.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Hockey, we have already clarified that aspect regarding his evidence and what it was, I don't think we need to reiterate it.

MR HOCKEY: I just want confirmation on that.  You say that he was present, was authority given for that project at that in-house?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was in-house and as far as I know, that is how it took place.

MR LAX: Sorry, you haven't answered the question, the question was, did authority get given at that in-house?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR HOCKEY: If your evidence in that regard is correct, then Mr Verster lied.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Then it is so.

MR HOCKEY: There was also a lot of questions and speculations as to the reasons why Mr Verster at the meeting of the 2nd of May 1989, asked what he asked, so I just want to ask you one or two questions about that.  At that time, May '89, did your seniors in the CCB know of your association with Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR HOCKEY: There were media reports immediately after the killing of Dr Webster, that there were two people involved in the killing.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At a stage they said three, four, they mentioned various numbers.

MR HOCKEY: The media reports?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

MR HOCKEY: Did some of the members in the CCB know that you were playing rugby with Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: They weren't really all that interested in my activities, so I'm not certain, perhaps, perhaps not.

MR HOCKEY: Are you saying there was absolutely no way that they could have known about your association with Ferdi Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that they could have known that I was playing rugby with him, I'm not certain.  If they could go to the trouble of attending a club rugby match, they would have seen so.  Mr Barnard didn't play first team on a regular basis while we were practising together and working together.

MR HOCKEY: Let me just ask you about your Section 29 statement.  Is it right that in this statement you twisted the facts a little bit?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: But in essence, the things that you say in this statement, the actual facts is true?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Many of those things are true.

MR HOCKEY: For example, well it's obvious that the Athlone bomb incident did take place.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR HOCKEY: But the surrounding circumstances, how you described how it happened is not right.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR HOCKEY: While you were in detention, were you visited by anybody of the CCB?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR HOCKEY: I think you also answered the question yesterday to the effect that you weren't visited by Krappies Engelbrecht.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: No if that is in fact the case, if you were visited by anybody by the CCB, the police who questioned you could have found out whether that is true or correct, is that not so?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: They could have found out.

MR HOCKEY: Whether in fact you were visited or not by any member of the CCB.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Of course.

MR HOCKEY: Because they keep a record of who visits you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

MR HOCKEY: You wouldn't have lied about something like that in your statement, something that they could easily find out?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.