Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  Just referring specifically to Mr Hlongwane.  It was you who  organised Mr Hlongwane to first of all, travel to Ermelo to assist with the problems that the IFP were having in organising the townships surrounding Ermelo and in that I include the Wesselton township?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And it was also you that organised Mr Hlongwane to return from the Wesselton and Ermelo area to join the eSikhawini hit squad?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, Mr Hlongwane is clear in his instructions to me that the main and primary purpose of his deployment in both of these areas, was to kill IFP opponents?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, he knew very well.

MR WILLS: And that he perceives as having come from orders received from yourself?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: I want to touch on another area which I trust you can help me with.
	My understanding from my instructions from the four persons I represent at this hearing, is to the effect that in the Inkatha movement, there was a hierarchical structure which had the effect that if a more senior person asked you to do something, you did that in an unquestioning manner, would you agree with that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I agree with that because I would give you another example.  Like for example Prince Gideon Zulu, he is the Prince who is very close to the KwaZulu kingdom, and he is also equally very close to the IFP President, and also he was holding a very high position within the Central Committee.
	If a meeting was to start without his presence, he would be sought out and if he told you to do something, you would not even ask a question, you would do exactly as he ordered.

MR WILLS: Now, the evidence so far has been to the extent that Prince Gideon Zulu was in fact, or did play a primary role in the authorising of the eSikhawini hit squad to commit some murders.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I have already said that his position in the eSikhawini region, was very high because when we talk about eSikhawini we do not only refer to eSikhawini the area, we also refer to places like Eshowe and places like Hluhluwe, Mkuze, all of those areas were under the control of these men.
	eSikhawini is just a township because that is where they used to meet, but what they used to do in all of those areas, there is a lady in that place called - a lady who is a Chief in that area, all of those areas were under their control.
	The people who were stirring trouble in those areas, knew very well.   Gideon Zulu himself knew very well, therefore I am not imagining what I am saying here.

MR WILLS: The question I want to put to you is that is it not so that even though these orders to kill, these orders came from the senior people including Gideon Zulu, were in fact to kill and that is an unlawful thing to do.  It would have been impossible or very difficult at the least for the persons to disobey those orders?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't think that even in their wildest dreams or imaginations, they would even attempt to disobey an order, that would be extremely difficult.

MR WILLS: Why would it be difficult, what would happen?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: They too, would be killed.

MR WILLS: Just to touch on this aspect of this strategy, the evidence has been so far that on the one hand there was this plan whereby particular individuals would be targeted and sought after and killed, and then on the other hand, there was this general violence which it seems was used to clear the certain areas of people, unwanted people, are you with me?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: If the people whom I represent, the four people that I represent in these hearings, were to become involved in this strategy to clear up an area of ANC people and to that extent there is examples in their applications, of attacking busses, of shooting indiscriminately in certain areas in eSikhawini for example, which were known to be ANC areas, or to attacking and burning homes in places like Ermelo and Wesselton.
	Would you say that those activities were within this policy that you described?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that they were in fact encouraged to behave in this way, by the Inkatha leadership?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it not further so that the more successful they were in this indiscriminate killing, the more they were congratulated and respected by the leadership?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: As I have already explained, that I came to realise that they were indeed successful because they used to travel around in their own cars like Mrs Mbuyasi and  Mzimela, they used to drive State vehicles and these cars were handed over onto them to use them in their killing sprees.
	Therefore it was difficult for even myself to speak to them at rallies, because they were always together and I thought yes, these people must be successful in their endeavours.

MR WILLS: Finally Mr Luthuli, do you know an individual by the name of Siphiwe Umvuyani who is now deceased?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I know him very well.

MR WILLS: Can you just describe who he is?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Umvuyani I would say since I knew him, a person who killed him, was actually a person who must have been a very strong supporter of Inkatha.
	Not that he was not being liked, when he arrived at Ulundi, it would seem like a king had arrived.  I am not one of the people who would talk to him, he would speak to people in higher positions.
	They knew him very well.  They knew that for example, yesterday he killed an UDF or ANC person in a certain area.  When he arrived, he would be the one would take the front seat, that is how I knew him.

MR WILLS: Now, if someone like this was to approach an IFP person and ask him to do a particular job, a hit or a murder, would that person, would you say that Umvuyani was acting within IFP policy in order to give those instructions?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is very, very correct, no doubt about that.

MR WILLS: What I am trying to get at, if somebody on the ground, one of the hit squad members were to rely on his authority, would you say that they would be acting within the instructions and policies of the organisation?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before I proceed with the few questions that I have, I would like to place on record that I have been instructed by Mrs Khuzwayo that she is not opposing the amnesty application.
	She leaves it in the hands of the Committee to decide, but she has specifically instructed me to place on record that she is grateful to the process, it has to a great extent pacified her, she was interested in knowing the truth, because all along she was in the dark as to what had happened at Claremont.
	Secondly Mr Chairman, I would like to ask for leave to put certain questions which strictly are not arising from what the panel has asked, because Mrs Khuzwayo has asked me to, in the interest of full disclosure, to put these questions to Mr Luthuli.
	Those questions Mr Chairman, will to a great extent also cover Mrs Mkhize who has been called here but in respect of which, who lost her husband and in respect of that incident, there has been no real evidence.  It won't be long questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stuart, do you have any objection to that?

MR STUART: No objection Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  You may proceed.