Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, I knew her well, she was a member of the Conservative Party and she also served on various committees and did a lot of work for the Conservative Party.

MR PRINSLOO: The second applicant, Mr Walus, was he known to you at that stage?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, he wasn't.

MR PRINSLOO: Doctor, the Conservative Party's existence - let us look at that, when was it founded?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: It was founded in 1982, 20th of March 1982.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage, was Mr Derby-Lewis a member of the Party?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, he was a founder member of the CP.

MR PRINSLOO: How would you describe his contribution to the Party from the time the Party was founded until the time of his arrest?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Derby-Lewis was a very committed member of the Conservative Party and he served the cause of the Party with enthusiasm and commitment and I was under the impression that Mr Derby-Lewis believed in the cause of the Conservative Party and he worked for the cause with zeal.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, according to your opinion, was he popular amongst the members of the public or not?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: He was very popular amongst members of the public and especially popular amongst the English speaking supporters of the CP.

MR PRINSLOO: And in the Party itself, in the caucus?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Clive Derby-Lewis was a respected and valued member of the Conservative Party.

MR PRINSLOO: Could you tell the Honourable Committee something about the events surrounding the Conservative Party from it's inception in 1982?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: In respect of what?

MR PRINSLOO: In respect of the fact of the Party's - any change in police, did it change or not?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, the Conservative Party's policies did not change.   The Conservative Party was founded because it believed in freedom of the various nations in South Africa and it realised that we, the Afrikaner people, were already free.   And we realised that we didn't want to surrender our freedom, we wanted to retain our freedom but it was also important that all the other nations and peoples in the country be liberated.
	We came to the conclusion in 1982, that the way in which the National Party was meeting the future would lead to our nation losing our freedom, that no nation or people would be free and that one would have a one Party Government which would be a majority Party Government and that is how it worked out and it was for that reason that we founded the Conservative Party.  
	From 1989 onwards, we realised that he course which the National Party of the day and the Government of the day was following, was actually forcing things to a head and that we were on the point of losing our liberty and for that reason we became more serious in the propagating of our cause.

MR PRINSLOO: At what stage did you realise this in the Party?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Well, we actually realised this right from the outset, we realised what the implications were of the National Party's course but we realised we had already passed this irrevocable cross-roads when the Record of Understanding was signed by the National Party and the ANC.    We realised that we'd reached a point of no return and it was a very serious situation and the National Party actually surrendered.

MR PRINSLOO: When was this?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: The Record of Understanding was signed in August/September of '92.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you tell the Honourable Committee what the Conservative Party's attitude was during the beginning of 1989 when the ANC was unbanned?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, we objected most strenuously, it wasn't only the ANC which was unbanned it was also the SACP.  And people against whom there were charges and investigations pending, these investigations and charges were suspended and we realised we were now heading towards a situation where our people would actually lose our freedom.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage Doctor, did it influence or effect the policies or the approach of the CP - this is now the unbanning of the ANC and the SACP, did it have an effect?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Now, policy-wise and as far as our basic points of departure was concerned, that remained constant but we started realising that we would simply have to act in a more serious manner.  We confronted the Government on an ongoing basis and we told the Government that it had no mandate to act as it was acting, that it would actually have to go back to it's voters which put it power and that is what we did.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, after the ANC and the SACP were unbanned and were actually allowed in the country and members of the leadership were allowed into the country, what were - in your view, what were the consequences?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Well, negotiations then commenced and one got the situation that there was the Pretoria Minute - and that was the result of negotiations, where certain things had been agreed upon, for instance, that the armed struggle would be given up, that weapons would be handed over.
	There was the Groote Schuur Minute, the DF Malan Minute, and not one of those agreements were actually enforced.  We realised that there was a situation where the Government could no longer stand it's ground and we would lose our freedom.

MR PRINSLOO: Doctor, do you know why these agreements weren't complied with, could you tell the Committee?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Well, the ANC did not actually surrender their arms, I think it is known that at that stage Mr Chris Hani also strove to establish a force of about 10.000 troops who could be a back-up in case negotiations failed so that that force could then act and then negotiations would be decided in favour of the ANC.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, that particular information to which you've now referred of Mr Chris Hani, was that conveyed to you by a member of the Party?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Who was this member?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: It was Mr Pienaar of the Conservative Party, he was a member for Potgietersrus.

MR PRINSLOO: Is this Mr Schalk Pienaar?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Were any of these aspects to which you've just referred, raised in parliament by Mr Pienaar?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, it was raised by Mr Pienaar.

MR PRINSLOO: And this announcement in Parliament by Mr Schalk Pienaar, was this reported in the press?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, it was.

MR PRINSLOO: I'm now showing you a document to which we will refer, it's an extract from Die Patriot of the 7th of May 1993 and the heading is
"Hani's Secret "South African People's Party" and then on the first page on the left-hand column it says: "Mr Schalk Pienaar, CP MP for Soutpansberg Revealed the Existence of Hani's Secret Revolutionary Army"
And he announced this in Parliament?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: I ask leave to hand this in as Exhibit A(f).
	Doctor Hartzenberg, this information which was so received and revealed in Parliament, what were the consequences of this?  How was it received in Parliament and the country as a whole?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: In the country as a whole it was quite a revelation, some people denied it and said it wasn't true and others were upset about it but the fact is that that information - and this was reliable information which Mr Pienaar revealed, that as a result of the signing of the Groote Schuur and other Minutes there was a truce and APLA and MK could no longer operate under their own banner.
	And therefore Mr Hani went and founded The People's Party which was in fact a militant organisation consisting of APLA and MK members, in other words he circumvented these agreements.

MR PRINSLOO: Doctor, after the unbanning of the SACP and the ANC and the developments which followed after that - this is before April 1993, was the constitutional option still an option for the CP?