Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-26

WITNESS:   I will not be able to be exact.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was with him in that car?

WITNESS:   The owner of the car has since ... (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... recap on what you said.  Your son and your son-in-law were taken in two separate cars, is that right?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The car in which your son-in-law was travelling, that car managed to go directly to the hospital, is that right?

WITNESS:   You are right.

CHAIRPERSON: Whereas the car in which your son was, it was stopped by the police and sent to the police station.

WITNESS:   You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And at the police station he died.

WITNESS:   You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what the cause of death was?  Was it loss of blood from a bullet wound?  Do you remember?  We don't have a death certificate on the file, or we don't have a post-mortem report on the file.  Do you remember what the cause of death was?

WITNESS:   I do not know the cause of the death because we were not told anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you at this time?

WITNESS:   Which time are you referring to, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: On that day when your son-in-law and son were shot and when they were taken to the hospital where were you?  At your house, or where were you?

WITNESS:   I was at home.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, after the incident you said that you reported the matter to the Rouxville Police Station.

WITNESS:   Yes.  They came to fetch us to submit the statement, but no progress was made.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who made statements?  Were there any witnesses to this incident, the shooting incident, and if there were witnesses did they make statements to the police?

WITNESS:   I do not know, Sir.  I was fetched alone at home with my daughter.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Machona ever charged with any offence in connection with the incident?

WITNESS:   He was detained just one day.  The second day he was a free man.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the police regard him as a suspect in the case, do you know?

WITNESS:   I would say he was not a suspect because they did not send him to prison.

CHAIRPERSON: So, as far as you remember, Mrs Ratefane, there wasn't a case.  You didn't - did you go to court and sit in court and listen to evidence?  A court case, or an inquest, or anything of that nature?  Do you remember going to court?

WITNESS:   There was no court case, Sir, nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Machona, do you remember what - I mean, sorry, Mrs Ratefane, sorry.  Do you remember what Mr Machona's position was in the township?  Was he just an ordinary resident of the township, was he a councillor, what was his status or his position?

WITNESS:   He was an ordinary citizen and a councillor.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is a - when you say he was a councillor, was he a member of the Local Authority, what was called the Black Local Authority, in that township?

WITNESS:   Yes, you are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And was there tension or conflict between the residents of the township and the Black Local Authority?

WITNESS:   I do not know, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who the other councillors were?  You've said in your statement that Mr Machona was a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party, is that right?

WITNESS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, the other councillors on the Local Authority, were they also Inkatha members as far as you know?

WITNESS:  Yes, Mangese was also a member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, do you know - did you ever learn from any of your son's friends or any witnesses - did you ever learn why Mr Machona shot your son and your son-in-law?

WITNESS:  I never heard from anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your son's position, Jim?  Was he active in a political sense, and which party did he support?

WITNESS:  He was a member of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: And was he quite an active young person in politics?

WITNESS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you remember the name of the investigating officer in this case?  The policeman who was investigating the case, do you remember who he was?

WITNESS:   I do not know the name of the policeman who was investigating this case because many policemen were around rural townships.  Some of them were not stationed at Rouxville.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Machona continue being a councillor after this incident?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was still a councillor, but they were not functional any more.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know does he still live in Old Location in Rouxville?

WITNESS:   He is now in the Cape.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you can remember, Mr Machona and

CHAIRPERSON: /Mr Mangese,

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mangese, were they Sotho speakers, Xhosa speakers, Zulu speakers?

WITNESS:   Mr Mangese is a Xhosa and Madi Machona is a Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there still tension or conflict between residents or members of different parties in Rouxville in Old Location?  Is there still an IFP presence in the township?

WITNESS:   There are no conflicts and I don't hear any mentioning of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Ratefane, was your son Jim working at the time of his death, was he studying, what was he doing?

WITNESS:   He was supposed to go and work.  He was going to work on that next Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he had got a job?

WITNESS:   I didn't ask him where he was going to work.

CHAIRPERSON: Your son-in-law, David, was he working?

WITNESS:   He was working at a white school.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his job?  Was he a teacher or was he something else at the school?

WITNESS:   He was a cleaner.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have any children?  He was married to your daughter.

WITNESS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Whom did he have?

WITNESS:   Four in number.  He died when the last-born was a year old.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are those children now?

WITNESS:   They are present there.

CHAIRPERSON: Today in the hall?

WITNESS:   I left them at home.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... after them?

WITNESS:   Their mother is with them, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she working?

WITNESS:   Yes, she is working.  She is also working at a creche.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... the children?

WITNESS:   The last-born is six years old, and I can't remember how old are the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Are the older ones all at school?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your son Jim have any children?

WITNESS:   No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Ratefane, as far as you know, or as far as you can remember, was it only your son and your son-in-law who died in that incident?  Was anybody else killed or even injured during that shooting?

WITNESS:   The people who died on that day is a girl from Nzula's family, my son-in-law and my son, and my sister's daughter was also shot on that day, but she is alive.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she badly injured?  Where on her body was she shot?

WITNESS:   One bullet is still located on her shoulder, and two were removed in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, has she given a statement to this Commission as far as you know?

WITNESS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So she would be able to give details about how your son and your son-in-law were shot?  Was she present?  Was it the same shooting incident?  Was she present with them when they were shot?

WITNESS:   She was not with them.  She came to see this incident, and on her way back to her house Machona shot her.

CHAIRPERSON: What is her name?

WITNESS:   Nzwakhe Matsimela.

CHAIRPERSON: And you mentioned the name of another person from another family who died.  Just give me his name again, or her name.

WITNESS:   She is from the Nzula family.  She died.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else that you wish to tell us about that incident?

WITNESS:   Yes, there is something, because when they were buried my daughter, who is working in Welkom, came for the funeral, and on Sunday when she went to the taxis to return back to Welkom Mangese shot her.  My other son, who is still a student, was picked up by Maridi and they assaulted him.