Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

CHAIRPERSON: Life in the area today is quite different to what it was that time?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes it's peaceful, you can even come and join us and stay with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and a lot of things happened during that time, people dying, people defending themselves and a lot of decisions were made at the time which today we look at weren't very nice decisions.  It may have been necessary, I'm not saying it was, you people may have thought it was necessary and tactics were employed etcetera.  How do you feel about it today, that people died and lost property, lost limbs and soforth.  How do you feel about it today?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Chairperson, I feel very hurt because my work, I normally go to the choir and sing and go and play football.  Because of the situation I have to leave this ...(indistinct) and now that it is peaceful, I'm back in the ...(indistinct) I continue my life very well.

CHAIRPERSON: And how do you feel in respect of the families of those who had died during that period, who had lost property and been injured, how do you feel towards them?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: It's also a sad story and I feel bad about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you attempted to talk to people and victims who you know of?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes, even our brothers in the IFP camp, we are now in good terms and work together because as former commanders we launch another command where we're one and call ourselves Simunye, meaning we are one.  Some of those people were members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, I'm pleased to hear that.  It is to be hoped that that peace can be maintained for good, that people must have learned from the mistakes of the past and there will be attempts to affect that peace and I think the residents and the leadership should remember what happened before so that it's not repeated, would you agree?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you playing soccer together?

CHAIRPERSON: Members of the IFP and the ANC do they play in the same team?  Soccer?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes we play in the same teams and also in different teams.

ADV DE JAGER: I hope you'll do very good and win the league next year, hey?

SANDILE JEREMY NGUBENI: Yes that's correct, we're going to replace Bafana Bafana National Squad, Soccer Squad.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, I seem to have run out of witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there no more applications?

MR SAMUELS: No there's nobody here that I can see.  If I may have five minutes please if I may?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just check.

MR SAMUELS: We've been through yes, quite a bit one page 1.

CHAIRPERSON: There's none on page 1.

MR SAMUELS: On page 1, Vusi James, in fact may I update you, Vusi James Ngubani will be a matter heard in Chambers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: The three persons, Molise, Khanya and Mtsweni, those persons are still outstanding, Embrose May has testified and the next page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Cyril?

MR SAMUELS: Cyril Chisoma is not here.  Oh sorry, may I call Cyril Chisoma?

CHAIRPERSON: Please.  Mr Samuel, is this the last applicant from your side?

MR SAMUELS: Yes, there are still three persons, Molise on page 1, Molise, Khanya and Mtsweni.

CHAIRPERSON: What about them?

MR SAMUELS: I'm afraid these persons we still haven't traced, we have great difficulty them, we are continuing to do so, if we do not trace them my submission is going to be to have these matters adjourned sine die and they can take their place on the roll, on any roll for now.  These are the only matters we have and we should finish them all.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm giving you until 11 o'clock tomorrow morning.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you.  Mr Chairman, may I in their defence, attempt in their defence just to say this, I think many of the witnesses were given letters by whoever saying that you should appear on certain days.  Now I'm not taking the point that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'll tell you what has happened.  The person appointed head of the ANC TRC desk made those arrangements with the office but I understand that the understanding between them is that those dates are convenience dates and there may be changes like happened now.

MR SAMUELS: No I do not wish to take the point that it is a specific date, no, I just meant that to motivate.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand what you're saying.  I must say I'm extremely disappointed that that person who is head of the TRC desk of the ANC has chosen to absent himself from the major portion of the hearing because there are a couple of things I would like to have asked him and the difficulty some of your clients have is traceable to him.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May Mr Chisoma be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Where are we on the page?

MR SAMUELS: Page 83.

CHAIRPERSON: Volume 2?

MR SAMUELS: Yes Volume 2.

ADV DE JAGER: I haven't got a page 83.

MR SAMUELS: Page 83 is I think up to page 40 something.  I know there is some confusion with the numbering.  Mine, it's up to the red folder if that helps.

ADV DE JAGER: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Which language would you prefer to use?

CYRIL CHISOMA: Zulu.

CYRIL CHISOMA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuels, this application is not signed?

MR SAMUELS: May he ...

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to adjourn now, probably for the day.  Will you sort this matter out.  We'll adjourn till 9 a.m.  If I'm walking in here at 9 a.m. and there's nobody here at the tables, I'm striking the matter off.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS