Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR SHONGWE: They withdrew at the time when they knew SDU was just about to be formed in block F.

MR MALAN: Are you aware of the allegation, or the statement that they were, the Youth League was patrolling A to D, blocks A to D?

MR SHONGWE: I don't know that, sir.

MR MALAN: Did you hear that evidence given by Mr Armoed?   Was it Armoed?   Ja.

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I heard.   I would explain this way, that information was heard, but I knew that we were one thing with them, but on that day when I was chased out, I could verify that way I'm not working together with them.

MR MALAN: And yet the day before their death, you didn't know of any conflict.   Can you explain that?

MR SHONGWE: May you please repeat your question, sir?

MR MALAN: The day before their death, you gave evidence that you were not aware of any conflict between the SDU and the Youth League people?

MR SHONGWE: That is correct, I did not know.

MR MALAN: Sorry, could you just repeat?

MR SHONGWE: That is correct, I did not know that there is a conflict, but the day when I was chased to help them tap petrol from the taxis, I started to know.

MR MALAN: And if I hear you correctly, that was the day before they were killed?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is the day before they were killed.

MR MALAN: When was this meeting in F block where they formed the new SDU?

MR SHONGWE: I would tell a lie, I don't know, but I learnt from rumours.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Shongwe, just one question, when the SDU's were formed, it's because there were criminal activities against the community in Katlehong.  Am I understanding the picture correctly?

MR SHONGWE: The SDU's were formed against Inkatha and gangsterism, and the boers when they were coming to attack, because boers were our enemies.

ADV MOTATA: Now we have evidence that you had no working relationship with the police.    Is my understanding correct as well?

MR SHONGWE: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Now, prior to the 7th of December 1993, if you had captured somebody involved in these untoward actions, what would happen to that person, because you wouldn't take him to the police, for instance?

MR SHONGWE: You mean in regard to the killing of Blanko and Bulelwa, what kind of incidents are you referring to, or activities?

ADV MOTATA: Because you were not co-operating with the police, say for instance you catch someone, you do not take that person to the police?

MR SHONGWE: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Now what would have happened to that person?

MR SHONGWE: We had a disciplinary procedure.   In many instances, if you kill, you will be killed, if you kill, you'll be killed.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Mr Chair, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: The persons that you were called upon to go and look for, did you consider these persons to be dangerous?

MR SHONGWE: Which people?

CHAIRPERSON: The people that you were called upon go go and capture.

MR SHONGWE: It was not clear that they were dangerous, because the commander just said to go and fetch the person, and at first one person, he did not give me a gun, he just said, "Go and fetch this kind of a person", then we went.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, the people that were killed were perceived as criminals, is that right?

MR SHONGWE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also perceive them as criminals?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I regarded them as criminals, because what they did, the community did not appreciate, they were harassing the community which we were living with.

CHAIRPERSON: But as far as you were concerned, you had no problem with them?

MR SHONGWE: I don't understand, sir, problem, what problem are you talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you told us that you wanted to take part in siphoning petrol from taxi motor vehicles.

MR SHONGWE: Yes, I told you that.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long was this before the 7th of December?

MR SHONGWE: It was on the 6th, late on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: So, as late as the 6th of December 1993, you wanted to associate yourself with persons that you perceived to be criminals?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, chairperson, if something was done, we would all take part, not even one would stand aside.   If you stood aside, you would be regarded as an informer, and the results thereof would be to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: If you had been present when they killed Bulelwa, would you have killed her?

MR SHONGWE: Because I would be part of them, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.   Is there anything arising, Mr Madasa?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair.

UNKNOWN: When you say you did not have a problem with the ANC Youth League, what do you mean by that, what do you mean by problem?

MR SHONGWE: I personally was not in conflict with them, that is what I meant.

UNKNOWN: But the SDU to which you belonged, did they have a problem with them?

MR SHONGWE: I would say the SDU had problems with them, because it tried to call them to a meeting for a long time to resolve the issues, but they refused until the incident happened, the incident that we are gathered here for.

UNKNOWN: Were you permitted by SDU to associate yourself with the activities of the ANC Youth League?

MR SHONGWE: Because I was a member of the ANC Youth League, they were reprimanding me, saying, "Man, aren't you aware of their acts, one day we will catch you with them and then you're going to be assaulted together with them", and then I tried to withdraw myself from many criminal activities, most of the time I would be with these other men, because they were not involved in criminal acts, they did not want any criminal act.   You get into a person's house, you come out with a glass, just an ordinary glass, it was a big mistake to them.

UNKNOWN: So you, you belonged to both organisations, the ANC Youth League and the SDU at the same time?

MR SHONGWE: We were one thing, we were one thing, sir.

UNKNOWN: After that (indistinct), did you remain as a Youth League member?

MR SHONGWE: I remained behind with the SDU.

UNKNOWN: After they had separated themselves with the SDU, would you have participated in their activities?

MR SHONGWE: If I was part of them, yes I would take part if I was part of them.

UNKNOWN: I say after the ANC Youth League had separated itself from the SDU, you say you remained with the SDU, is that so?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Now I'm asking you, would you have participated in the activities of the Youth League?

CHAIRPERSON: But he indeed attempted ...(intervention).

MR SHONGWE: I would not take part, sir, because what they did was evident enough that they were harassing the community.

UNKNOWN: Why did you associate yourself with them and remain with the SDU?

MR SHONGWE: I realised that their actions were not acceptable.   Now at times the boers were chasing after them, and I didn't like that.   During the shootout, one would be in a position to be shot at.   Now I withdrew from them.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thanks, chair.

MR MAPOMA: I take it that there was a branch executive of the ANC Youth League at Moleleki, is that not correct?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, there was.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever report these activities to the executive of the ANC Youth League in Moleleki?

MR SHONGWE: Which activities?

MR MAPOMA: The activities, these activities which are the criminal activities of the people whom you said were ANC Youth League, did you report those activities to the leadership of the ANC Youth League in Moleleki, you as a member of the ANC Youth League?

MR SHONGWE: No sir, I did not report, you know, and it was during that time of killing, they would ask and inquire who reported, and then if it was discovered that I did, I would have been killed.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA