Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

DR RANDERA: Mr Ikaneng, I want you to help me but in order for you to help me I want to actually create the scene.  In all these volumes of paper that we've read and what we've been listening to I seem to be getting two impressions, okay?
 On the one side there's a situation where there's a clash between SOYCO and other young people and out of this Mrs Madikizela-Mandela intervenes, tries to get people together, opens her house and her office up because she's a social worker and people are allowed to go and stay in the back of her house and there's a football club that plays football, okay?
 On the other side we hear of many stories - the Dalybongwe one being one of those, where the football club gets involved - besides playing football, in all sorts of other activities, abducting people, shooting people, raping young women,  Now this is what I want you to help me with, was there from your experience - right up to the time that you were living there, was there ever an occasion or occasions where you saw or heard Mrs Madikizela-Mandela saying to these young people - yourself included, "Go and do these things"?

LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG: At no stage did I hear that.

DR RANDERA: Was there ever any occasion where you remember Mrs Madikizela-Mandela - because from what we understand people were also going to her house and trying to explain what was happening, now was there ever any occasion that you can remember, where Mrs Madikizela-Mandela came to the young people - whether you call them a club or not I'm concerned, and she told you people: "What are you doing"? and criticised you and warned you not to do these things?

LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG: I remember one instance where a certain young man by the name of ...[indistinct] had robbed a certain person of money and people came to complain and he was beaten up and sent to the police station at a later stage.

DR RANDERA: My last question, you're an activist in the township from '84 you tell us?

LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: You get involved in the club, you go the house and it seems to me that you leave the house after the Dalybongwe incident which is July of 1988 but the first time you seem to report it - besides the police, the first time you report this incident is on the 16th of January where you suddenly turn up at the church.
 Now, in that intervening period from July till January, did you ever go to any members of the Crisis Committee, did you ever go to the South African Council of Churches, did you ever go to the Archbishop whose house was not very far from where you were to say these things are happening, can something be done?   Did you?

LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG: No.

DR RANDERA: Why not?

LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG: It never occurred to me to do that.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee?

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
 Mr Ikaneng, just to clarify a few points.  These highjackings that you took part in, would you say they were similar to highjackings that we experience today or was it part of a tactic of the liberation struggle?

LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG: Yes, it was more or less related to the struggle for liberation, it was not just a criminal act like it is happening today.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, just one more question.  We've heard that the soccer club stopped playing soccer but can you tell me, did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ever say to you or to the other members: "Do not associate yourself with the soccer club" or with the name of the soccer club?

LEROTHODI ANDREW IKANENG: No.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?  Piers?   No?  Thank you very much.
 Lerothodi Ikaneng, thank you very much, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We now call Dudu, Sibusiso and Barbara Chili.
 Actually you have not done so badly, you've improved remarkably.

CHAIRPERSON: It's practice Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, thank you for coming today.  We would like to know which language you'll be using.

CHILE FAMILY: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to thank you once more for coming today to share your story with us.
 Hanif, what do you want to do?

MR VALLY: Archbishop, I just want to put something on record, we were approached in the course of the hearings late last week by Mr Robert McBride who produced a witness and we have taken a statement from this witness, it's a Mr Vuzi Madeda - I have given a copy of the statement to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's legal team.
 Why we think it's important to put in record is that we have at all stages asked the team if there are any specific witnesses they want called.  Having perused the statement we don't believe it would take the matter much further but on record we need to get a response from my learned friend and determination from him whether he wants us to call this witness or not.  If he indicates that he does want us to call this witness, then we can state further when we can fit this witness in.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you want to place it on record you're not meaning it's going to be read?

MR VALLY: We're not talking about reading the statement into the record, we're talking about actually calling the witness.  If Mr Ishmail Semenya wants this witness called he should let us know especially since Mr McBride indicated that this witness was possibly in favour of his client.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had an opportunity of perusing the particular statement Mr Semenya and if so, are you able to respond to Mr Vally's query whether you might want to have the witness called?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I'm only able to say: "Yes, I have fleetingly read the statement" and I do realise there are aspects positive to my client's interest which are alleged in the statement.  I haven't had occasion to consult with this particular witness but I would support rather that - maybe like statements of Mr Bridgdent, that it can just be read into the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, do you want to do that immediately now?

MR VALLY: If the Commission so desires, I'll do so right now.

CHAIRPERSON: But we've already called witnesses here and I think ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: I can do it after the witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you?  I think it's a kind of courtesy I would say but thank you very much.
 Please stand up.  (No English translation)

CHILE FAMILY: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Will you each state your full names for the record please.

MR S CHILI: I'm Sibusiso Chili.

MR D CHILI: Dud Chili.

MRS B CHILI: Barbara Chili.

MR S CHILI: (sworn states)

MS D CHILI: (sworn states)

MRS B CHILI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Chairperson.  I'm going to ask questions of all of the witnesses but if I might start with Dudu Chili first please.
 Are you going to give evidence in English of Zulu?

MS D CHILI: I'm okay about languages.

MR UNTERHALTER: Well, if you could give your evidence in English ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just try and see, I think the moving is going to be a problem.  Thank you very much.  Could you just perhaps wait until we've sorted it out?

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You're really wonderful.  I haven't said thank you but I am going to do that later but I mean you're actually quite wonderful and without your assistance - he's blushing.  Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Chairperson.
 Can I ask you - to begin with, to go back to the years 1984 and 1986 and could you just briefly tell us what your activities were in community organisations at that time?