Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: I believe I might be going a little too quickly Mr Chairman, I'll slow down somewhat.
	Is it also correct that from the 1st of January 1989 you were appointed second in charge of the regional Orange Free State branch of the security police?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And then lastly, in December 1989 you say that you were transferred to Soweto?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What were you there and which position?  What was you status there?

MR COETZEE: I was appointed in the inspectorate, the watchdog of the officer commanding.

MR VISSER: And in March 1994 you became the regional head of the Witwatersrand?

MR COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Was it the police or the security branch?

MR COETZEE: No, the security branch.

MR VISSER: We've heard that - if I can take you back to 1985 when you were involved in the black section, that in 1985/1986 there were in the region of 20 members in that black section?

MR COETZEE: More or less Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Can you give us an indication of how many members there were in the security branch in Bloemfontein during those two years, in total?

MR COETZEE: It's difficult to say, I think about between 70 and 80.

MR VISSER: During the time you were involved in the black section, did you hear about Mr Ngo?

MR COETZEE: That is correct, yes.

MR VISSER: As we've listened to his evidence, he continuously visited you in your office, he heard everything that was going on there.

MR COETZEE: That is not true.

MR VISSER: Did you like Mr Ngo, Mr Coetzee, tell us?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman, I was against his transfer to the security police.  As a student I did not like him very much but the commanding officer wanted him there and I just accepted him, I tolerated him there.

MR VISSER: Was that a person whom you would take into your confidence?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: His handlers were Mr Erasmus and in his absence, Mr Shaw.

MR COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: What about Mr Motsamai?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman, he worked mainly with Motsamai and Mr Mamome.

MR VISSER: That was Mr Ngo?

MR COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: If we can pay attention to the various and I want to go through those quickly.  You know precisely, if I give you a short reference to which incidents I'm referring.  We've already consulted regarding that, I don't want to waste any time.
	Mr Ngo involved you or implicated you in the murder and robbery on Mr Venter.  He said in his application on page 8 of bundle C and following on that that you instructed him to murder Mr Venter and that you had to see to it, on page 8, that this murder would appear to have been a robbery and a break-in.

MR COETZEE: [No English translation]

MR VISSER: He also said that after he had committed this task in co-operation with Mamome and Ramouseau, he reported back and you were not satisfied that they did not remove enough articles from that house and that you thought he had to remove more articles from that house to simulate a break-in.

MR COETZEE: I deny it wholeheartedly.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, on page 12 of bundle C referred to an incident where Mr White Mohapi would have been abducted and assaulted with hammers and irons.  He does not mention your name specifically but I'm just asking you, do you have any knowledge of this incident?  Did you have anything to do with it?

MR COETZEE: Nothing at all Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And then with B on page 12 of bundle C, Mr Ngo says that under your instructions he and Tswametsi, Mamome and Motsamai and Mtyhala set alight the house with petrol bombs.  I know that in the evidence he's now changed this to the house of the parents of Citi Mzuzwana.  Do you have any knowledge of this incident?

MR COETZEE: I know nothing about that.

MR COETZEE: And did you give any such instructions?

MR COETZEE: No such instructions Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: He also says, on your instructions Ramaseou, Mamome, Motsamai and Mtyhala and he himself Mr Ngo, went to the clinic of Mrs Mandela and that they found an object which could set something alight, a kind of a phosphorus grenade.  They threw that into the clinic and this resulted in the clinic being set alight.  Did you give such instructions?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: There's also an allegation in this regard that Mr Ngo was present in your office when you contacted a certain Mr Liebenberg at the South African Defence Force and that you made the necessary arrangements for explosives to be used in an attack on the clinic or the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela, I can't remember which one.  Did something like that happen?

MR VISSER: Do you know ...[no sound]

CHAIRPERSON: I have a request for a short adjournment which I will grant.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS