Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Cachalia, I think if you take a look at page 30, paragraphs 5.5, 5.6, 5.7 that sort of leads up to the situation immediately prior to the shooting and from that there's no specific mention of any assault other, it does mention a gunshot being fired, but not an actual assault.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Chairperson.

MR LAX: I just wanted to finish what I was asking him.  Where, you say they threw stones at you, did the stones actually hit you, cause you injury?

MR SITHOLE: No, I retreated and I sustained no injuries.

MR LAX: So in fact you weren't assaulted at all then.  If you weren't hit by anything.

MR SITHOLE: They were assaulting me, but I managed to retreat and I also took cover and I laid down on the ground.

MR LAX: Carry on please Mr Cachalia.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, did you say that the stones hit you on your body?

MR SITHOLE: No, they did not hit me on the body.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you.
	Mr Sithole, what Mr Lax and I am saying to you is that nowhere in your documentation, nor in your evidence, did you, was there any question of you being assaulted at all.  You are now coming with a version that you were assaulted.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Cachalia.  I'm not saying anything to him in that regard.  You are putting it to him that nowhere in his documents does he say that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I have worded it incorrectly.  My apologies for that.  Mr Sithole, nowhere in your documents did you say you were assaulted.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: I do mention that the ANC people assaulted me, this is why I went back to find out, it was at that time when they began stoning me and shooting at me.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole I just want to say to you that when you say you were in fact assaulted, you were in fact not assaulted at all and that is not correct to say that you were assaulted.

MR SITHOLE: I was assaulted.  They threw stones at me and they also shot at me.

AZHAR CACHALIA: It is a fundamental coincidence in this whole action and I think it was dealt with, I think it was also dealt with in your Court, that the ANC who were shooting at you people, and who had been stoning you, and who had spears, axes and knobkerries with them, never managed to kill or injure or hurt any member of the IFP.  Am I correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: So either they were very bad shots, or your version is a total lie.

MR SITHOLE: We had already seen the fact that they were coming to assault and injure us and we had to be proactive.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole, I am saying that in the throwing of the stones, in the possession of the various other weapons that they had, and in the shooting by people whom you did not know who was shooting, from the ANC towards the IFP, not a single member of the IFP who was gathered there on that day got hurt.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that.  He's already said that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: As the Chair pleases, my apologies.  If that be the case, Mr Sithole, they were either very bad shots or you are telling a, you are fabricating a version.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this could be adequately dealt with in argument, this question of probabilities or whatever.  But he can try to answer if he wants.  Probably say that they were bad shots.

AZHAR CACHALIA: As the Chair pleases.

MR SITHOLE: This is not a fabricated version or a lie.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole you say when they started shooting to you you fell to the ground.  And did you only shoot from the ground, or did you stand up?  You say you took cover.  I'd like to know precisely the details of what happened when they started shooting what you did at what stage.

MR SITHOLE: Well I did not fall as such but I threw myself to the ground.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And then?

MR SITHOLE: Then we shot at each other.  They were shooting at me and I was shooting as I was on the ground, and I shot one of them and he fell on the ground, and they pulled him with, running away with him.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You're referring to the late Mr Dastile.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: I did not see whether it was him or not.  I am referring to the one who got shot and fell instantly on the ground and they took him with as they were running away.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What I'm saying to you Mr Sithole is that you fell to the ground, as I recollect and my memory might not be absolutely correct, did you say in evidence-in-chief that you had also taken cover behind some shacks or building?

MR SITHOLE: No, I did not say that.

MR LAX: Mr Cachalia he in fact said it in reply to a question you put to him earlier, just this afternoon after lunch.  He said he fell to the ground and he took cover.  He didn't say behind what.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you very much, I remember that that's what he said this afternoon.  I thought earlier he might have said, but it's not very fundamental so I will not go and look at my notes right now.  Mr Sithole, were you at the time when you were shooting near Mr Brown's house?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it was near.

AZHAR CACHALIA: After you had initially shot did you climb onto the roof of Mr Brown's shack?

MR SITHOLE: No, I did not.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I will lead evidence at this particular Committee's hearing that in fact you climbed onto the roof of Mr Brown's shack and from that particular position continued shooting in the direction of members of the ANC from the top of that particular roof.

MR SITHOLE: I don't dispute the fact that I shot at the ANC members.  I did that in an attempt of defending myself.

CHAIRPERSON: No the whole point of what Mr Cachalia is saying is, he's saying that he will be leading evidence later in this hearing to the effect that when you were shooting at the members of the ANC at one stage you were actually standing on the roof of Mr Brown's shack.

MR SITHOLE: I don't dispute what he says, but what I'm saying is that I never climbed up the roof of Mr Brown's shack.

MR LAX: So you are disputing what he's saying, because what he's saying is that you climbed on the roof.  Now you're saying you don't dispute it but you didn't climb on the roof.  So do you dispute that you climbed on the roof?

MR SITHOLE: I did not climb on the roof of Mr Brown's shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at any stage on the roof of Mr Brown's shack when the shooting was taking place.

MR SITHOLE: No.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Did you climb any roof at all?

MR SITHOLE: Except my own shack, when I was putting back the roof ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about when this shooting was taking place.  Did you climb on any roof at all?  Not asking whether in your whole life you've ever been on a roof.  At the time of the attack did you climb on any roof?

MR SITHOLE: No, no I did not climb any roof.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole, as I said before, that was the evidence that's going to be led and I don't want to mislead you.  The chairperson said that you were standing on the roof.  It was going to be suggested that whilst you were shooting you were kneeling whilst on the roof of Mr Brown's shack.  You got any comment about that sir?

MR SITHOLE: No I dispute all that.  I was shooting from the ground, lying on the ground, not on top of the roof.

ADV SIGODI: Did you see anybody climbing Mr Brown's shack and shooting from that roof?

MR SITHOLE: No, I did not see any.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you.  Mr Sithole, you said that Mr Zwane and Mr Mpongosi said on that particular day that the ANC were attacking.  They came to you shack and informed you about the attack by the ANC.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you told them to go down to Magwaza, to your brother's shack did you say.  Is that what you said?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it is true.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And after that you had changed your clothes, and after you had changed your clothes, you heard a gunshot.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.