Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Would it then be correct to say that your commitment to the cause was not as strong, is the easiest word I can find, you weren't as committed to the cause as some of those uniform-wearing AWB members, who wanted to show the whole world that they believed in the cause of this organisation?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Could you repeat the question please?

UNKNOWN: Is it correct to conclude therefore that your personal commitment to the AWB was not as strong as that of somebody who proudly wore that AWB uniform?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct, if you make that inference.

UNKNOWN: Now, given that, why again would the two applicants want to believe that you're an officer of this organisation that they say also represented their cause, who they were?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Many of the officers within the AWB were basically people, how could I put it, please pardon what I'm about to say, but they were people who generally appeared to be stupid, and what I mean by that is not that they are stupid people, but they create the image of stupidity by means of the decisions that they make and the actions that they take, and I did not want to associate myself with stupidity and stupid decisions, and I put it to the two applicants many a time that there were certain elements who were making very wrong decisions with which I could nt agree, and that was one of the reasons which I posed to them which might have led to them seeing that well, I'm not super-intelligent, but I'm not dumb enough not to see what was going on.

UNKNOWN: Now, having had these discussions with them, you were still left with the impression that they thought that you were the person they would take orders from, or they could relate to in the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes, that's correct, they might have received that impression and maintained it.

UNKNOWN: The basic point, however, being is at no stage did you give them an instruction to go out and shoot black people they happened to come across, at no stage?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, I never received or found it necessary to issue such instructions.

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairman.   Mr De Bruin, did you recruit the applicants for the AWB or who recruited them?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, I did not recruit them for the AWB, but with our underground resting place conversations, as well as conversations that we had at our respective homes where we often met, we spoke politics and I inferred that politically they felt the same way as I did, and I invited them along to meetings with me and there they made their own decision to join the AWB.

ADV BOSMAN: So indirectly you may have recruited them?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Indirectly, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And the testimony of Mr Wheeler created the impression with me that it was a kind of strategy which was planned for the election.   However, on the other hand, if you could just explain, you said that you were waiting for instructions, which of course creates the impression of a certain structure?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: The discussions which Mr Eugene Terreblanche held specifically at meetings led one to the conclusion that he was secretly planning something, and that the officers of the AWB were involved with it, and that they would issue instructions to us.   That is the inference that I drew from the statements made by Mr Eugene Terreblanche, as well as that we would receive instructions, because the officers knew who else was involved with the AWB, who else was members of the AWB, so you would have thought that the general AWB member attending these meetings would have interpreted that the regular members were waiting for instructions to be given.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes.   And on the morning when you were discussing, or talking to the applicants, did you mention these further instructions to them?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Did it not, was it not said that you were waiting for instructions, that you had to be ready in case something had happened?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And nobody wondered where the instructions would come from?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Well we assumed that the instructions would be issued from the leadership element.

ADV BOSMAN: When you say "we", do you mean you and the applicants?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes, that's me and the applicants.   As I saw it, I would receive instructions, I knew where they were, and then I would have said to them, "Guys, we've received these instructions, we must report over there or meet over there", and that would have been the case if I'd received such instructions.

ADV BOSMAN: So therefore, to conclude, you were clearly under the impression that everybody had to wait for instructions which would be issued by the officers?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, not that there would be definite instructions, but if there were to be instructions, I would convey it to them.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Bruin, we've been talking about officers of the AWB, did they have, did these officers have military ranks, did they call themselves captains and lieutenants and brigadiers and generals?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct, they had basic military ranks.

CHAIRPERSON: And did the applicants ever ask you what your rank was, whether you, what level you were in the hierarchy?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, we never discussed things like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising from questions put by the members of the panel?   I'll start with Mr Prinsloo.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr De Bruin, you answered a question that the officers of the AWB wore a uniform.   I would just like to clarify with you, do you know a Mr Fred Rundle?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes, I do.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct that he is quite high up in the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know the position which he occupies within the structure of the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: I'm speaking under correction, but I suppose that he is a general.

MR PRINSLOO: This specific person, does he wear a uniform

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes, but I have seen him at various meetings without a uniform.

MR PRINSLOO: Would you agree then that this is one of the cases where one of the top officers within the AWB often doesn't wear his uniform?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: So your answer cannot indicate an absolute rule, but a more general rule, that normally members would wear uniforms?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr De Koning?

MR DE KONING: Mr De Bruin, the question was posed to you that the applicants were with you at the meeting and what you heard is what they heard.   However, you told me during the first round when we shared certain ideas with each other that the AWB propagated violence as well as the disruption of the election?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's true.

MR DE KONING: So they must have heard that as well?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: Furthermore, would you agree with me that, strange enough, and well I cannot provide the reason for this, but the director of the Security Division of the mine was also under the impression that you were an officer in the AWB, is that not true?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: I don't know him.

MR DE KONING: But that he has said it under oath?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: I know that he has said it under oath, but I don't know him.   I know that the security services at the Westonaria mine involved, that they often drove among the houses, it could have been that he saw me and I didn't see him, and that he might have seen that the two applicants were with me, that is all possible.