Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

ERNEST RAMATALA: I want to come to a point, so I said that I want to explain so that you can understand.  I say that previous days we had a quarrel with Mr McCarter concerning Letsatse, so Mr McCarter used the word that I'm trying to build my own complex in the police force but it was to my surprise when he said that I was an experienced person and for that matter Mr McCarter managed to promote the whole section excluding me.  How can today he mention that I'm an experienced and then when the benefits - I don't enjoy the benefits.  I want to put it to you that Mr McCarter is trying to grab anything that he'd say, human nature is like that.

MR HUGO: Yes but what I don't understand still is, on what basis were you picked to go and approach an ANC member like Mr Bhila?

MR HU: GO:   The guy was not an ANC trained person, maybe for my intelligence so that the guy can really believe what I'm saying.  Is it true that you were an askari before you joined the South African Police?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.  The interpretation of an askari, judge, do you really understand what does that mean?  It means that somebody has been a member of the organisation now trained and joined the ...[indistinct] I have never been trained.  He mentioned that thing, he arrived at the Vlakplaas while I was there for five years before, six years, so he didn't know me very well.

MR HUGO: Now I want to go over to the group that was sent down from Vlakplaas.  You said in your evidence in chief that Shakes Malaleka was also part of this group, did I understand you correctly.

ERNEST RAMATALA: That's Shakes Malaleka?

MR HUGO: That he was part of a group that was sent down from Pretoria to Durban?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, he joined us here, he was right here in Durban by then, in prison.

MR HUGO: And he was in prison here in Durban when you arrived here?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That's Malaleka?

MR HUGO: Shakes Malaleka.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Now when did you meet Mr Shakes Malaleka for the first time?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I think it was the first day when we are going to make the first contact with Mr Bhila.

MR HUGO: In which jail was Mr Malaleka detained?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I was not sure of the jail.

MR HUGO: And how did he get out of jail, how was he released?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That question you're supposed to put it to them because I do not - they used to control, they used to do everything that they can do.

MR HUGO: But if you say you - they - who are you referring to, just give us specific names?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well Malaleka was the part of the group from Pretoria but he was being arrested some - or years or months before we came here.  Now he was in Durban, now he was released the time we are here.

MR HUGO: Yes but it's important to us to know who was instrumental in releasing Mr Shakes Malaleka from jail.

ERNEST RAMATALA: That one I won't have any knowledge about that.

MR HUGO: When you saw Mr Shakes Malaleka for the first time after he had been released and he'd been taken to, I suppose, C.R. Swart?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR HUGO: And with whom was Mr Shakes Malaleka when he arrived at C.R. Swart, who was in his presence?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I cannot remember the time he was coming, no I just saw him as part of the group.

MR HUGO: Well let me just put it to you that we're acting for Mr Willie Malaleka, do you know him?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Very well.

MR HUGO: Yes, now Mr Willie Malaleka says that he was present when a person and we have been in contact with him, he initially said it was a Stanley Moni but he has now conceded that he might have the name wrong, when a person was released from jail or booked out of jail and his recollection was that members of the Durban security branch were present and instrumental in having him released.  Can you remember whether Mr Shakes Malaleka arrived at C.R. Swart in the presence of Mr Malaleka, Willie Malaleka?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.

MR HUGO: Then before we carry on I just want to clarify one further aspect and that is the initial purpose of this operation, was it a routine, was it to be a routine operation when you were sent down from Pretoria to Durban?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes, routine operation.

MR HUGO: So at that stage there was no mention of a specific operation that you were going to participate in?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.

MR HUGO: And is it also then true that Mr de Kock, Mr Eugene de Kock who was the commander of Vlakplaas at that time, was on leave during this operation?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: And do you confirm as is set out in Exhibit E that Mr Bosch actually travelled down to Durban in Mr de Kock's BMW?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Bosch was driving Mr de Kock's BMW.

MR HUGO: Now the first order group that you were talking about, where you were informed as to what your participation would be in this operation, what was the date, when did that take place?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I don't remember the date.

MR HUGO: Well we now have it on record that the 20th was the first time, the 20th February 1987, was the first time that contact had been made with Mr Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I don't remember the date that ...[intervention]

MR HUGO: Well was it a day before the 20th, two days before the 20th, or on the same day?

ERNEST RAMATALA: What do you mean, same day when we arrived from Pretoria.

MR HUGO: No, no, when you were first, for the first time instructed to partake in this operation.  This is the order group that was held and amongst other people Mr McCarter had addressed you?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Can you repeat?  I don't hear you.

MR HUGO: Look, all I want to ascertain is, you met Mr Bhila on the 20th February, we now have that, it's common cause.  Prior to that, when was this order group held when you were told to go and meet Mr Bhila?

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Hugo just before you proceed.  I may be lost but why do you say it's common cause that the meeting with Bhila was on the 20th, the first meeting?

MR HUGO: Well if I say so, I think most of the witnesses have conceded that - no, I fact I actually put it I think Mr McCarter as well that - but Mr Malaleka said that they met on the 20th, but I'm sure as to whether I put it to Mr McCarter.  	If we accept just for the moment that this meeting was -that your first approach to Mr Bhila took place on the 20th, when did the first order group meeting take place?

ERNEST RAMATALA: ...[inaudible] but I said it, I cannot remember the dates but what I only remember when making contact with Mr - now he said that we must see him a day or two after that day, so I really don't know how to fit the days nicely there.

MR HUGO: Yes, well we - let me put it to you that the 20th was the Friday and the 22nd when Mr Bhila was killed was a Sunday.  Can you remember whether it was a Thursday?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I think on Sunday.

MR MALAN: Mr Ramatala, if I may just see if I can help you?
If I understand the question correctly is, it is you met for the first time with Bhila on the 20th and assuming that is so, you met with Bhila for the first time on a specific day.  That meeting that you had which you were instructed, briefed and then instructed, it's the smaller group, to locate Mr Bhila, when did that meeting take place, was it on the same day that you went to Bhila or was it the day before or two days before?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Same day.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman I see it's 1 o'clock, I don't know whether it's a convenient time to take the adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn till 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ERNEST RAMATALA: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, before you proceed, Visser on record.  I've been requested by Mr Rosslee to enquire from you whether he might be excused Mr Chairman.  He's basically only involved in the Bhila application and he's got a job waiting for him in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it Mr Visser if something arises, we can arrange his recall?