Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Well that was a document shown to Mr  Modise by your colleague Lieutenant Reineke?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Like I've told you I cannot speak for Mr Reineke, he will have to come and explain.

MR VALLY: Two final question.  What would it mean if a person's name is removed from the list?

ANTON PRETORIUS: If a person's name is removed from a list -I didn't hear you properly.

YASMINE SOOKA: What is the effect of someone's name being removed from one of those lists?

ANTON PRETORIUS: The name being removed by whom, us from Trewits?  There are a number of possibilities. I suppose I know what you want. A person could be killed, a person could be sent from one division to another and in that case his name is also removed from the list.
 Many names could appear on lists, it actually could be called structures which we found out at a later stage were two persons. Persons work with three, four different names and then we rewrite that we had two persons and in that case we had to remove the names. In short those could be some of the reasons why person names have been removed from the list.

MR VALLY: Is it possible if a person has been killed that his name is then or her name is then removed?

YASMINE SOOKA: I think that question (...intervention)

ANTON PRETORIUS: It's logic, I have answered that question.

MR VALLY: Because I want to put to you that one of the thesis is that Trewits was responsible for identifying potential targets who were thereafter removed, and when I say removed they were then killed. Is it possible that the lists that you people had were lists of potential targets for assassination?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I would say it is possible, Commission.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of anyone in Soweto who was on a list that was assassinated?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission once again Mr Vally is referring to a list of Soweto. At this stage I'm not aware of a specific list of Soweto.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, I beg your pardon. A list which involved people who lived in Soweto, it could have been an MK list, it could have been an APLA list, but people who lived in Soweto?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Yes, Honourable Commission, it is logic. Those people trained by MK from overseas and hundreds of those people came from Soweto.

MR VALLY: I want to finish this issue now because there's lots of aspects regarding Trewits which we can talk about at a later stage. I need to ask you, as the Commander of the Intelligence Unit in Soweto, is there any criminal case that you aware of which was initiated as a direct result of intelligence work done by your unit in Soweto? Specifically regarding initially Mrs Madikizela Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission I'm not sure whether I heard you properly. I have already mentioned that I have already applied for an amnesty for certain things which shouldn't perhaps crop up here now. I didn't hear the question properly, I really didn't hear properly what Mr Vally said.

MR VALLY: I'll repeat the question and if there's any incident that you're referring to where you've applied for amnesty please tell me. My question is, is there any court case which was initiated against any member of the Mandela United Football Club or Mrs Madikizela Mandela or any member of her household as a result of information gathered by the Intelligence Unit at Soweto Security Branch which you were the Commander of? - any single case.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Yes, Honourable Commission. If Mr Vally only gave me time, I could have said so because I want to tell the Commission but he does not give me the opportunity. When he asked me during - about the Stompie Sepei case, I was the person who got the scissors and I showed it to Mr Oosthuizen who was the investigating officer. I have seen many shoes full of blood and Mr Vally didn't ask me. However, if I weren't there Murder and Robbery probably wouldn't have seen it because I stumbled across it.

MR VALLY: Well, with respect to you Mr Pretorius, you should just look at your paragraph nine of your affidavit and see what you say in there. But my very last question is this, are you aware of any investigation being conducted against you by the office of the Attorney General in connection with any crime whatsoever and more specifically, in connection with murder?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I am aware of that and I suppose that is why I applied for amnesty Honourable Commission.

MR VALLY: Thank you Madam Chair.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. Mr Richards?

MR RICHARDS: Thank you Madame Chair.
 Mr Pretorius ...[intervention]

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry Mr Richards could you just place your name on the record? It's just for the purpose of the transcription.

MR RICHARDS: Sorry. Attorney Richards, I represent Jerry Vuzimuzi Richardson.  Mr Pretorius, you've been described repeatedly as being the Commander of the Intelligence Unit. Now I would understand that to mean that you were the responsible person for collecting, collating, processing and synthesising the information you got, am I correct, yes or no? What else does a Commander of the Intelligence (...intervention)

ANTON PRETORIUS: In terms of the Intelligence Unit, yes.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you.  Now it goes further, your particular focus was the identification, location and tracking down of MK operatives, APLA, AZAPO, is that correct, yes or no?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That was the identification of them, yes.

MR RICHARDS: Right.  Now, during the course of the hearings before this Commission this year and last year we've heard that a number of MK soldiers were members of the football team, are they known to you? Would you be able to name them?

ANTON PRETORIUS: At this stage I can't remember but it is possible that I knew at that stage but I have no records, I can't remember the names now.

MR RICHARDS: It does not matter that you cannot remember their names but at the time you were aware that there were MK operatives who played football in the Mandela United Football team, yes or no?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I want to qualify. The information that was obtained during the round down of the pieces that I know of, most of the football members were SDU members who were trained by MK members, so in truth one can classify them as MK members, yes.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you, you've proving the point that I'm trying to establish.  The football team was a matter of particular concern and interest to you, yes or no?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No.

MR RICHARDS: Even though there were self defence unit members and MK operatives playing football in the team, it sounds strange. So, it's also true from what we've heard in these hearings that visiting MK operatives would come and call at the house, were you aware of that, yes or no?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That's right.

MR RICHARDS: So, your information as to which MK operatives were calling at the house was of particular concern to you yet again, yes or no?  Yes?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I think I have already referred to one incident which dealt with tested information. I would like to say there were many rumours as I've already said but I read those telephone transcriptions and an MK person, normally if he visited Mrs Mandela he didn't stay long because he knew that the Security Police were after him.

MR RICHARDS: I'm sure that's correct but nonetheless I've now established that it was a special concern of yours to understand what was going on at the Mandela houses in Soweto. Whether it be the Diepkloof, Orlando West or as you called it the Palace. It was your particular task to be aware. And that means it would extend further, you would be able to give the Commission a fairly accurate idea of what - and I'm going to ask the question, in your opinion was the function, purpose and uses to which the football team was put? That's my question.