Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

MS MKHIZE: Actually my question really relates not so much to information which warranted persecution, it pertains to information which might help the Commission in terms of understanding what exactly was happening around her at that time, especially around the cases which have been put forward before you.
 So we haven't been really looking for that kind of information which you are having in mind.  The questions which people have been raising is that you seem not to be helpful in giving whatever information you might have had around that time, not so much information which warranted persecution.

ANDRE KRITZINGER: If I understand you correctly, I was summonsed to appear in front of this Commission and the statement which was prepared, was mainly directed at the eight aspects mentioned in the subpoena and this statement and I have only been advised to testify to that, if there are any other facts which have to be made public, which I could testify about, again I say that I am willing to do so as long as I can be given the opportunity to just as in die Oupa Alex Seheri case.
 This is a case that took place a long time ago and it places me in a very bad position as I am the Investigating Officer and I cannot remember all the details.  I would like to be given the opportunity to go through all those dockets again, to refresh my memory and if there is any other information, that you feel that I could give to this Commission, then I would gladly do so. 
 That which has been asked of me and put to me here, I am afraid my answers is the only way in which I can assist this Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: Senior Superintendent, my question is really trying to look at the future.
 The overwhelming impression I go away without listening to you, is that there seems to be one set of rules for yourself and I can't talk about other people, for yourself, when it came to investigating ordinary terrorists, let put it that way and there seem to be another set of rules for high profile terrorists and I would put, you know a lot of people would fall into that category and at the time that expression would have also applied to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.
 Now, my question therefore to you is is that a prevailing attitude that has been taken into our new dispensation and if it is, what are the checks and balances that can be brought into play so that these things don't happen again because clearly as so many people have commented already, you fell very short in terms of the investigative work that you did at the time?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: ... case, what case are you referring to?

DR RANDERA: Sorry, Senior Superintendent, I don't want to go over the work that Mr Vally has done already.  I think if we can just deal with the impression that I have, rather than to go back to the specific?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: If I understand you correctly, then I want to agree that investigations were done with the ordinary terrorists and when it came to Mrs Mandela there was another method of investigation, as to the fact that she was not approached.
 This is my personal way of doing things.  By means of example I would also like to mention that if we wanted to visit her house, we had to get permission from Head Office as to whether we were permitted or not, so I want to qualify that by saying that she was a high profile person.  I do not believe that there is any doubt regarding that argument.
 As far as the future is concerned, if I understand you correctly, it is my wish that everyone will be treated equally and that if a person has a high profile, that person will not be treated any differently and I also want to ask the Commission to assist me and to say that not even Mr P.W. Botha has been treated any differently and he is also definitely a high profile person.
 So my argument is yes, that in future everybody should be treated equally.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I only have one question which has been touched upon, but I want to ask it.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela received a great deal of attention from the Security Police.  You've already conceded that whether it be tapping her phone, surveillance or whatever.
 There are those who would go further and say that the Security Police did not see Mrs Madikizela-Mandela as a very popular figure in terms of their own feelings and views about what was happening and the future of the country and so on.
 Indeed there would be those who have stated that she was a risk to the country and that because of her stance, viz-a-vie the government, she was dangerous.  What I find quite incredible, is that if this is the case, that the actions you did not take in terms of securing a statement, can only be on the grounds of instructions given to you.  Now, you have alluded to that.
 I want to ask you quite specifically did you at any time receive from any source, either your Commanding Officer, from Headquarters, from the Attorney General, from the politicians of the day, did you receive and your colleagues, any instruction not to take statements from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: At no stage did I myself receive such an instruction.  And nobody ever gave me an instruction not to obtain a statement from her.
 If I can just elaborate on this, regarding the court orientated investigations which I was tasked, I did not receive an instruction specifically from the office of the Attorney General to take a statement from her.

CHAIRPERSON: So the decision not to take statements from her, was your own decision?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I would concede that it was my own decision and the explanation I have already given is a personal experience and that she would not have given a statement in any case.
 That is absolutely clear.

CHAIRPERSON: But for heaven's sake, there are many, many instances where the Security Police simply detained people who refused to co-operate?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: That is correct.  As I have already said in the investigation in which she was implicated and I am referring regularly to the Attorney General, but if he thought it was necessary for a statement to be obtained from her, we would have attempted to do so.
 The Attorney General never found it necessary for us to obtain a statement from her.

CHAIRPERSON: It does seem to me that what you are saying is that whilst you received no specific instruction, it was your understanding that you yourself would be very unpopular if you went and took statements from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?
Is that right?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes.  I don't care whether I am popular or not, that wasn't relevant to me at that stage.
 If I had to go to her in the course of investigations that I did, I did visit her home but where I was really and truly shown the door.  So it is not a question of being popular or not.
 As far as I was concerned, a crime had been committed and it had to be investigated to the best of our abilities and the docket was handed to the Attorney General and if there are any deficits or shortfalls in the investigation, he would have decided that further investigation would have had to be done, be it physical investigation or the obtaining of statements from evidence or whatever the case may be.

MR KEMP: Mr Chairperson, there is only one aspect.  Mr Kritzinger, the compilation of the docket with more than 30 offences against Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, what was the purpose of the compilation of that docket?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: The whole purpose of compiling that docket was that and this is once again my personal experience, that she had a free hand, and the word that I used untouchable, that is actually unacceptable that a person could be involved in so many activities and that nothing was ever done to her.
 The docket was compiled in order to present it to the Attorney General for him to make a decision whether as to prosecute or not.

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.