Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR SINGH:  Okay, we'll leave that question for the time being.  At the time that you were at KwaShange, and the members of your unit were there - now, by that I mean your specific kombi unit and the members of the Riot Unit who were present.  That was the same time that these people were bringing all this property to the truck, is that right?

WITNESS:   You can just come again with this message.

MR SINGH:  Let me put it another way round.  Were all the policemen that you were involved with who were there at the scene - were they present when people were bringing back stolen property?

WITNESS:   From my knowledge the kombi was present there, the members was working with me were present.

MR SINGH:  Was Mr Powell present at that time?

WITNESS:   He came there with a vehicle, but the time when he jump off from the vehicle that's the time we moved from the scene. Where did Mr Powell go to when you left there?   ---  Well, I don't know at the moment where he went to.

MR SINGH:  Did he follow you to Ntombela's place?

WITNESS:   There was a lot of people there.  You can't specify, Sir, that man you saw him there.

MR SINGH:  Now, this red Husky of yours, you had previously been part of a unit as part of that red Husky as well, is that right?

WITNESS:   That's correct, ja.

MR SINGH:  What were those members doing in the area?

WITNESS:   So, I can't confirm this point.  You're going to find a statement later concern to this.

MR SINGH:  Okay.  Now, you started off your evidence by saying that you were sleeping at the Ansonia at that time.

WITNESS:  That's correct.

MR SINGH:  And Duma asked you to accompany him.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Did you know where he was going and what he was going to do?

WITNESS:   He already explained to me he's going to pick up special constables.

MR SINGH:  So Duma's doing that was part of a bigger plan?

WITNESS:   According to my knowledge, the time when I arrived to the scene, the thing was planned.

MR SINGH:  So, do I get you correctly that it was no accident that you met up with David Ntombela and he forced those specials off the van?

WITNESS:   According to my knowledge the time when the people - everybody jumped fastly, when we meet him there, and also the time when I drive the truck up to the school, and I saw that other group coming from another side, and I realised that thing was planned.

MR SINGH: Thank you.

MR SINGH:  Mr Shabangu, apart from being in the same unit with that man you call Terblanche what were your other associations with him?

WITNESS:   I can't hear that.

MR SINGH:  I say that there was a man called Terblanche who was in the same unit I believe.

WITNESS:   He was commander of the Riot Unit.

MR SINGH:  What I am trying to say here, did you have any other associations with him apart from the working contact?  Did you know him very well?

WITNESS:   On this moment I will know him very well because he was relative of my father.

MR SINGH:  He was a relative of your father?

WITNESS:   They were working together with my father before my father passed away.

MR SINGH:  And so you became very close to him.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Is he the one who brought you into this job in this unit?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Is he the one who taught you to speak Afrikaans?

WITNESS:   No.

MR SINGH:  Where did you learn it?

WITNESS:   At home.

MR SINGH:  When you say at home you mean at the Shabangu's place?

WITNESS:   Ventersdorp.

MR SINGH:  Thank you.  You said here in your statement, paragraph 30, "At some stage Delport had arrived in the grey and blue Riot Unit kombi.  He said these people caused a lot of nonsense and we should leave them."  Who were those people?  Who were these people who caused a lot of nonsense?

WITNESS:   Well, by the time when I asked them he referred to me for the people from KwaShange.

MR SINGH:  Who were those people at KwaShange?

WITNESS:   That means in other words there was a party of - those people from KwaShange is ANC.

MR SINGH:  What did you understand him to be saying when he said that they were causing a lot of nonsense?

WITNESS:   Well, on that time when he said that I realised exactly back where I was told to side on one side.

MR SINGH:  These cattle which were taken from KwaShange, what happened with them?  Were they divided among the people, Amabuthos, or what, according to your knowledge?

WITNESS:   Well, after the Seven Day War there was a party was held, and there was a lot of cattle was slaughtered there.

MR SINGH:  Where was that?

WITNESS:   There was in between KwaShange and Gezabuso.

MR SINGH:  Did you people attend the party?

WITNESS:   Because we was invited there I also went myself.

MR SINGH:  Who invited you to attend the party?

WITNESS:   Well, the letter came back to our branch.  It was addressed to the unit.

MR SINGH:  From who was the letter?

WITNESS:   The letter was coming from David Ntombela.

MR SINGH:  How many officers attended the party?

WITNESS:   Well, I can put it this way.  My section was there.  There was some of the people from another branches.

MR SINGH:  Did you know that the party was made out of the cattle which were stolen from other people?

WITNESS:   On the specific moment when the thing was happening I didn't know that.

MR SINGH:  When did you start knowing about that?

WITNESS:   After the party was finished.

MR SINGH:  Okay, and what happened with all those other things which were taken, the ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 5)

WITNESS:   The truck returned back to the station empty.

MR SINGH:  Did the policemen get any share in that?

WITNESS:   Well, I couldn't say if they took it, or if they didn't took it, or if the people took it.  I believe on my knowledge they was helping the people putting the things into the Canter.  You can't help the person if you won't get nothing.

MR SINGH:  So you feel that they got a share?  That's logical.

WITNESS:   According to my knowledge, ja.

MR SINGH:  And in paragraph 34 you say here, "We later went back to the unit, leaving the Riot Unit patrol vans behind.  Some time later the Plessislaer police arrived."  When the Plessislaer police arrived what did they do?

WITNESS:   Well, the people from Plessislaer they came to ask first what's happening from the scene.

MR SINGH: Well, I think I am going to leave the other question to Professor Simangele, 37.1.  37.1 which is marked 33.1 on page 9.

MR SINGH:  Before I get to 37.1 please explain about Ray Ngcobo?  You said at first Ray Ngcobo was killed because he had killed Terblanche.  Did I get you to be saying that?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR SINGH:  And you went on, you said Ray Ngcobo got to a point where he did not like the things that were happening and now they turned him to be the garden boy.  Now, tell us about Ray Ngcobo, why he was killed, and also why he killed Terblanche and why he was killed, and who killed him.

WITNESS:   Constable Ray Ngcobo - I was just summarising, because on this specific moment I came for the Seven Day War. Oh, I understand you.  You say today you are going to elaborate about the Seven Day War, you won't touch anything about Ngcobo?   ---   I was just summarising because I am sitting here.  I put in these people's mind on this old - where are coming from, this old Government.  I shouldn't be sitting like that.  That's the cause of the death of Ray Ngcobo.