Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   When I arrived at the hospital I phoned - at that stage he was Colonel Schoeman, he's now Brigadier Schoeman, who's the - he's the deputy regional commissioner of the Port Shepstone area - and informed him.  Senior ranking police - a Colonel du Preez, who's now General du Preez, and is the area commissioner for 'Maritzburg - arrived at the hospital, together with a Colonel van Aswegen from the Riot Investigation Unit.  So high level police came to the hospital.  I did accompany the police later that evening back to the scene to go and point out the scene and - ja.

MR LYSTER: And since that day, the nature of the investigation?

WITNESS:   The Goldstone Commission did investigate the investigation at one of its Natal hearings.  From what I recall there were problems with the way the investigation had been conducted in terms of delays in getting evidence, problems about getting firearms from the area in to take ballistics tests.  From that point I'm - I mean that was some time ago, and from that point I haven't had any direct report from the police as to the state of the investigation.

MR LYSTER: Are you aware whether all the people who attended that meeting have been questioned in connection with the murder?

WITNESS:   I believe that they have, but I am going basically on a report I think given by the police at the time.  We had been specifically interested in Chief Dlamini's security guards, because we felt their presence at the meeting was fairly suspicious.  The other pointers to make on the whole thing is that I do think it was a very carefully planned ambush, that they chose a spot in the road where vehicles have to proceed more slowly.  The spot was also one in which they were able to see all oncoming traffic and all - from both directions.  I think they must have had us under surveillance in Ixopo, because we didn't leave the meeting immediately, we had the meeting with the police and then we had lunch, and I am sure they wouldn't have wanted to have hung around on the road for a long time.  And then also that the shot that killed Reggie I think must have come from an expert marksman to have been able to hit him like that.  The other point I didn't mention was I was not able to see anybody, so when we neared the spot I didn't see any vehicles or any people before the ambush took place.  Afterwards I wasn't able to see anybody.

MR LYSTER: Now, you said Mr Shaiks Cele was also hit.  Do you believe that all three of you were targets for assassination?

WITNESS:   Look, I believe they definitely wanted to kill Reggie, and that he was the prime target, and that hence they shot him with the first bullet.  As far as the rest of us, I am not sure what they wanted.  We could have I think been killed, or we definitely could have been killed.  How much they wanted to do that I don't know. Do you have any idea of how many bullets were fired into the car?   ---   No.  I mean just as far as - I mean a record of damage to the car, the left rear window was broken, appeared to have been shattered on impact, or appeared to have been shattered on impact by a bullet.  The rear window was broken.  Bullets went through that.  A bullet hole in the front dash board above the steering wheel, and then a number of bullet holes in the car, so it was a large number.  As far as I know it was - shotguns were used.  There were pellets.  As far as I understand Reggie was killed with an R4, I think, a bullet, and there were then other bullets on the car.

MR LYSTER: What impact did his death have on the region and on the working of the Peace Committee?

WITNESS:   Well, it obviously made that work quite difficult, in that there was a peace meeting designed to talk about peace and try and resolve conflicts in the local area, and you had people being shot and killed on the way to that meeting, so it obviously made that a lot more difficult.

MR LYSTER: Are there any other comments of a specific or a general nature which you would like to make in connection with the incident or, as I say, of a more general nature?

WITNESS:   Ja, I mean there's one comment I wanted to make of a more general nature, just having been in 'Maritzburg during the late 80s/90s, or involved during the violence in terms of monitoring and trying to find legal strategies of dealing with the violence, that in evidence before the Commission at this hearing names of policemen involved in violence have been named.  One of the problems is that many of those people are still in the police.  Barber, who was mentioned quite a lot with regard to Imbali, is still  in the Security Police.  I think it's the Prime Intelligence Service now.  He currently holds the rank of inspector.  And that I don't think people's relations with the police can ever improve unless the people being named are properly investigated.  I don't see how people can be expected to have faith in the police when - or in the Security Police for example, of the new police, South African Police Service, when people like Barber are still there and there don't appear to have been any proper investigations into what he allegedly did.  But I think it goes beyond the foot soldiers, as it were.  The more senior police, the head of security, the heads of security at that time need also to come and say what they did, what they knew of what was going on, were they aware of abuses, what steps did they take.  Similarly the heads of CID, because one of the problems with number of the violence cases was that they were not properly investigated.  Those heads need to come and tell people their understanding of what happened and why these case were not properly investigated, why there were so few people arrested and charged, and so few people found guilty of the crimes.  And I think that unless that's done I don't think anyone can really expect relations between the police and the community in Pietermaritzburg and surrounding areas to normalise, and for the community to have faith in the police.

MR LYSTER: Thank you for those comments.  Are there any questions from my fellow Commissioners and Committee Members?

MR LAX: Mr Jefreys, this is for you.  It's more a  comment really, in the sense of an observation of what you've told us.  At least a G3 and a shotgun were used in

MR LAX: the attack on you, which would clearly indicate that at least two people must have been involved in that attack.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: You obviously would confirm that.

WITNESS:   No, I agree with that.  I am sure it was more than two.

MR LYSTER: And is it correct that G3 rifles were those rifles which were issued by the then KwaZulu Government to chiefs without going through the proper - the normal process of weapon licensing?

WITNESS:   That's correct, and then the chiefs basically gave those guns out - in theory to people who were meant to protect them, but they seem to have been given out quite widely, and in the province as a whole those guns were used in the commission of a number of crimes.  So really there was no control over those guns at all.  The other point is that at the meeting with the police before the ambush the police had even told us that they were unable to - they didn't know how many guns were in the area, they were unable to tell us, because it was a concern before the ambush.  I think Mr Magubane's car had been ambushed with a G3, or a G3 had been used, and subsequent in the investigation, as far as I understand, they were not able to properly get records of all the firearms in the area.

MR LYSTER: Are there any further questions for Mrs Hadebe?

MR LYSTER: I just want to ask one question which is directed to JJ.  As the meeting was adjourned at 12 noon because of certain problems can you give me the picture of the  movements of the people?  Were you the first people to

MR LYSTER: leave?