Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-18

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: But I do know this that he had required some cash in dollars which had been given to him. As he says there on the 28th November 1991.

MR VALLY: Now that is the first question.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: And it was required to deal with the flights there etc as he explains here.

MR VALLY: Fine. My first question is by 1991 there were people in the Defence Force who had already heard of certain financial improprieties regarding Dr Basson?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: But he was still given a lump sum of dollars.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: To spend and then account for and he accounts for it on the 7th of May 1994. As I see from this report.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes that is not correct. The co-ordinating management committee approved the availability of this sum of money. The questions arose at a much later date as to exactly what the expenditure of that money was about. And it was part of the Office of Serious Economic Offences' investigation and he was asked for an explanation so that I could give the information to the OSEO. And I think I can confirm that by going back into all the files and the OSEO investigation. And that was when he wrote this letter.

MR VALLY: We will come back to that because I want to go through this letter with you. The co-ordinating committee also knew the allegations of financial impropriety regarding Dr Basson?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Oh yes.

MR VALLY: But they were still at this stage and I will go through the periods with you, but in November 1991 although they were aware they were still willing to make an advance of a large sum in dollars available to him.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: On the 28th of November 1991?

MR VALLY: Well for example.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes certainly.

MR VALLY: They did. Alright he says and I won't read the whole letter but I will quote verbatim from it. He was given a certain;
"dollar cash amount required for the next six months for flights through Africa to Europe. For the transporting of samples and material."
Are you aware number one that there were flights through Africa to Europe transporting samples I suppose you could call it?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Samples and material?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct yes we were aware of it.

MR VALLY: Was this a two-way trip? Were things coming in as well as things going out?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Mr Vally my impression was these were substances that we were obtaining in front agents and so on and within Europe and bringing back to South Africa.

MR VALLY: You are aware that Dr Lourens said he had taken one of his applicators through to Britain at the request of Dr Basson?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I was not aware of that at all.

MR VALLY: Did Dr Lourens ever tell you that?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir.

MR VALLY: Alright. It goes on
"To pay for the purchasing of fuel."
Are we to assume that he flew in his own plane or a chartered plane?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: A chartered plane probably.

MR VALLY: And that was common occurrence that Dr Wouter Basson flew in chartered planes?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes in fact it was policy. It was policy that no dangerous substances like chemical substance could be flown on international flights. It had to be done in private flights or on chartered flights.

MR VALLY: Fine. It goes on
"Landing fees and "discretionary costs." "Cash payments to airport security officials for procedures with regard to clearances and searches, to make this proceed smoothly."
What you are in fact saying is that there were bribes to make sure that your plane was not searched?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct. His plane.

MR VALLY: His plane was not searched. And it says an amount of 75 000 US dollars is obtained in cash from an HSI front for this purpose.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: HSI?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Chief of Staff Intelligence.

MR VALLY: And that is the same General Jophar van der Westhuizen?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally yes I think it is but I would like to just confirm exactly when General van der Westhuizen was replaced by General Vebeek. We need to check that date but certainly it was either General van der Westhuizen or General Vebeek.

MR VALLY: Well we know in terms of TRC 14 which you claim was not accurate which is signed by C P van der Westhuizen.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Is that the same date?

MR VALLY: It is in March 1992.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Well that doesn't prove that it was still General van der Westhuizen.

MR VALLY: Right but we know.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: At some point he was replaced by General Vebeek.

MR VALLY: The issue is this; it is referred to as an HSI - Chief of Staff Intelligence front company and it says (pass load flights.)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: That Dr Wouter Basson got 75 000 dollars upfront from them.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: We know according to this letter TRC 14 that Lieutenant General C P van der Westhuizen appeared to have some knowledge of Operation Jotta.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: He was a member of the co-ordinating management committee. He had full knowledge of it.

MR VALLY: Well either he had full knowledge or he didn't because you very strongly disagreed with TRC 14 in that you said it was not correct that for example General Neethling was involved.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally let me try and explain that again as I tried to explain it to you the other day. The Chief of Staff Intelligence was a member of the co-ordinating management committee. He was responsible for security of the project. He has field workers who is not informed about the project but he instructs them to provide information about what they find in the field because that is the only way he can determine whether there is security leaks within the organisation of the project. This is the kind of report that comes back to him and he brings it to my attention. This is what the field workers of the Intelligence community thinks about the Defence Force and then particularly here with regard to Project Jotta. This is what they have picked up on the ground from sources and from discussions that they have heard. This gives us an idea of whether security is being breached or not. I am not saying that Jophar van der Westhuizen personally didn't know about the project. I am saying this is what he sends to me as a report from his field workers. You know (...intervention)

MR VALLY: Alright let's just stop right there. You have got TRC 14 in front of you?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Fine look at paragraph 22 page 6. I will read it to you
"Dr Basson also mentioned that Major General Lothar Neethling was fully informed regarding Project Jotta."
Let's just stop there.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Which paragraph is that please?

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon. Paragraph 22 page 6, the top of the page.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes I have got it thank you.

MR VALLY: This wasn't a field worker. It wasn't one of his Intelligence officers running around doing investigations. General Jophar van der Westhuizen says Dr Basson also mentioned. Now is there a better reason? I mean clearly he is in a co-ordinating committee or his predecessor or his successor you say depending on the dates but we talking 1992 now. We got a letter TRC 28 which says in 1991 75 000 dollars was forwarded to Dr Basson by a front company. It doesn't say a military front company. It says particularly a front company of the Chief of Staff Intelligence. Is that right?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: It appears to me as if what he alleges in paragraph 22 of TRC 14 is based on inside information. A personal report from Dr Basson to him.