Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that your belief was that the people leading this country in such a bad way were linked to the witches and traditional healers in order to sustain their power in the country?  Did I understand you correctly?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I said it like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.  Carry on.

MR NDOU: Thank you, I am indebted to you Chairperson.
	Mr Masithulela you see the victims are before the Committee here, how do you feel now?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes for now at this point of democracy I find it very hurting to see the youth who are sitting in front of me without parents, because it was caused by the previous government.  If it was not because of the previous government I think by now their parents will be still alive.  As such I feel that I must humble myself before the children of the deceased and tell them that what happened then it happened.  So for now I have to cry or sympathise with them.

CHAIRPERSON: You say it wasn't personal, it was just a political circumstance that had to occur?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you happy to go to them privately perhaps and make your peace with them?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I will be very happy.

CHAIRPERSON: ... attitude would be but I would ask the respective representatives to investigate that possibility.

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU

ADV SIGODI: What was Edward Mahvunga's position in the community?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I know that he was the younger brother to the headmen, Adam Roksane Mahvunga.

MS PATEL: ...said to have used witchcraft to protect his power, what power - Edward Mahvunga, in the community.

JOHN MASITHULELA: It's ....

CHAIRPERSON: Answer?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I am asking that you repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: How was Edward's alleged ability as a witch, how did that help those who were in authority?

JOHN MASITHULELA: The power of Mr Edward or witch powers?  Whose power?

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you believed that Edward was a witch.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose powers were used and helped to sustain the power of the authorities, for example his brother.  That's how I understood your evidence.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Our colleague here has asked you, how did Edward use his power to assist maybe his brother, let's say for example?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I don't have the powers which I can tell this house that was having this powers of assisting his brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain it?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Maybe I cannot understand the powers which people are wanting to know about.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it is witchcraft?

JOHN MASITHULELA: No I am asking that you ask your question clearly, I don't hear you well.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that witches have - I am not asking you to give me a scientific explanation of those kind of powers.  Are you able to describe to us how Edward, if he was in fact a witch or wizard, and had these powers, strange powers, how would he use it to assist someone in authority?  Do you know, if you do know can you tell us?

JOHN MASITHULELA: In connection with Mr Edward I don't know, but in general because of the violence which was happening in Venda witches were assisting in helping the government of the past.  With Mr Edward I cannot explain that because I don't know that he was having witch powers which can assist maybe the headman.

CHAIRPERSON: ... in general.  How would these witches assist the government of the day then to retain what they had, to entrench apartheid maybe?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Witches assisted the previous government in this way.  They went to extent where they were used.  Let me put it this way, the government was comprised by chiefs or headmen or the government of the past was composed of headmen, chiefs, indunas and the like.

CHAIRPERSON: You say chiefs, headmen, indunas and?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Those are the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say the government was comprised of these kind of people?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Ja, and others, ordinary people.

CHAIRPERSON: So how would a witch assist these people with their strange powers?

JOHN MASITHULELA: The chiefs used to consult people at the grassroots level and consult the traditional doctors so that they could assist them by mutis or medicine through which they can prevent or protect the power of their government and these witches were used to destroy the youth who were having politics which were with them by then.  Some of the youths were made to be zombis.  Some were being killed.  Some were being made to become mad.  Something like that, and so on.

ADV SIGODI: I just want to get some clarity on the position of Edward Mahvunga.  Is it your case that Edward was evicted because he himself was a witch, was practising witchcraft?  Or is it your case that Edward was evicted because he was making use of muti to sustain his position in the society?

JOHN MASITHULELA: What I can say, what I know is that the deceased was killed because he was being suspected in witchcraft, and because I know that witches co-operated with the rulers of the time I realised that it is fit for them to be killed, because they are assisting the people who are ruling at the time so that they can continue with the ruling while oppressing us, the community.

ADV SIGODI: ....in your area at the time was Adam Mahvunga.

CHAIRPERSON: He was the father.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it's true.

ADV SIGODI: So was there suspicion that Edward was perhaps assisting Adam to sustain or to protect his power in the area?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I cannot say it's like that because Adam Mahvunga I think by the way he reacted when he wrote a "trek pass" he wrote it due to pressure.  I think he was not co-operating with the headman.

ADV SIGODI: Another point which I want to clarify, if you then wanted to have freedom or to have some political change why didn't you get rid of the traditional leaders themselves?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I personally in my view will say not only were witches killed but traditional leaders were killed too.

CHAIRPERSON: Your explanations in respect of Edward and why he was attacked, would that apply to Petrus also?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you just repeat again.

CHAIRPERSON: ....know why Edward was attacked, on what political basis?  Would the same apply to Petrus?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well it's the same because he too was suspected of the same act because it appeared that they were co-operating with the government.

ADV DE JAGER: One thing I want to clear up.  The chief Adam was on the Reef, he was in Johannesburg or somewhere, working there, is that right?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes, true.

ADV DE JAGER: Is that right, it's true, he was working in Johannesburg?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it is true.

ADV DE JAGER: As I understand it that while he was away Edward sort-of assumed power and pretended to be a chief, is that right or not?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes - well in my view it was perceived that way.

CHAIRPERSON: In your view it was perceived that way you say?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So was he loyal to the chief or did he undermine the chief?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I would say the late who was doing whatever people were doing but he will also disagree with other issues.  For example as the previous witness has said, according to the traditional set-up, if the chief had said each house had to contribute one rand for a particular event he will have contributed or he won't contribute.

ADV DE JAGER: So if he was a witch this witch didn't support the traditional leader.  He didn't listen to him, he didn't support him.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I won't say he wouldn't support.  I don't know whether there was any other underground movement or activities.  It could have been true that he was co-operating with the government from above downwards as the whole country in Venda was a little ungovernable or mixed up.