Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary that they see it before you ask questions?

MR VISSER: I thought I had made more copies but I was clearly wrong.  Here is another one for my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if I can get this one to that table there and we can use this here.  Thank you.

MR VISSER: That was just by way of background.  What I want to address your attention to now is your remarks in Exhibit A, paragraph 85 and 86, and I am talking now basically and generally about political objective.  You see I am not going to read it, you know what you said there, that was in your evidence, what I want to put to you Mr Ismail is that I will submit that the Act does not discriminate or draw any distinction as far as morality is concerned, either in favour of the one or the other side of the parties to the conflict of the past.  Do you agree with that>

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Also certainly there is no requirement in order to show political objective that you need to show that you occupied the occupied the, if I may use the term, moral high ground, that's not part of what is expected of you in an amnesty application.  Do you understand that?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Could you repeat that please.

MR VISSER: It's not necessary to show a political objective for any particular act to show also that you were morally justified in doing it.  The Act simply requires you to show a political objective.
	Now what I don't understand Mr Ismail is that at paragraphs 85 and 86 and in a number of other places one finds you saying, or explaining how you considered your cause to be the just cause; how when civilians, for example in the Church Street bomb were killed, it was a regrettable but necessary thing that happened; when you make reference to actions taken by the erstwhile government that was characterised as murderous acts where civilians were affected you used the word assassination, killing etc, etc.  I am not going into some of the remarks which appear to be rather racist, I am not even going to talk about that.  I want to ask you this, why do you make these remarks in your application?  What is the purpose?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson one has got to understand that the struggle was one that was waged between the African National Congress and an apartheid state.  The two are not equated.  One has to understand that there need not have been a struggle had there not been an apartheid state.  What was the cause or the suffering and the bitterness in this country?  It was apartheid.  It was the oppression of the people in this country.  	And if one tries to examine all of these things without reference to that then you begin to ask yourself on what basis are we talking.  We are not talking here of two countries at war.  We are talking here of a country at war with itself.  We are talking of a nation that was broken up on the basis of apartheid, on the basis of a racist ideology which was condemned internationally, where the United Nations itself, the liberation struggle in this country was accepted as a just struggle.
	It is on those basis that we lay the foundations because if we do not examine what we are talking about within a context then we simply talk about killing.  But we ask ourselves, this violence that we talk of, to what end did it come?  
	There are two different opposing things that we talk of.  The one which aimed to entrench privilege of whites which aimed to entrench white supremacy, and another which did exactly the opposite, which fought for liberation, which fought for democracy, which fought for change; which fought for equality.  We cannot simply then say we - all is the same.  
	The Act says that, yes, because today we move towards reconciliation.  We need to ask ourselves all the time when the hundreds and the thousands of black people were being killed in this country what was happening?  When the schoolchildren of Soweto were being killed, what was happening then?

MR VISSER: Mr Ismail I am going to interrupt you, I didn't invite a political speech.

MR TRENGOVE: No you did, you did invite a political speech, he asked for an explanation and he got one.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you did ask to explain why he's referred to a just struggle and used that language and he's trying to explain it.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman.  Well if you think that, with respect, that his answer is all as a result of my question then I don't want to interrupt him.  With respect I didn't think that I elicited all that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You can put another question.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You see let's just talk about a question of civilians.  You stated in paragraph 85, which I just referred you to of Exhibit A, that the ANC has never been callous in the struggle.  You remember that?  And you also stated that the injury and killing of civilians in the Church Street bomb was a matter which you foresaw, in fact you knew it was going to happen, but you discounted in view of the political objective which you sought to attain.  You will have to answer because the recording doesn't record a nod of the head.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I am waiting for you to finish your question Sir.

MR VISSER: Well so far what is your comment?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: The Church Street target was the South African Air Force Headquarters.  It was clearly a military target.  The objective was to strike at military personnel in uniform. They were there.  It struck at them. Unfortunately in such a target which was located in a place where civilians were also to be found, we struck at it because we struck at the South African Air Force Headquarters which was clearly a military target.  We did not target civilians.  	However, the policies of the ANC were, and our President has stated, that we cannot and I am paraphrasing here, for the sake of saving a few lives be prevented from striking at apartheid, at state power, that where the objectives are clearly identified we could strike at those.  And if you wish I can give you the relevant sections if you allow me just to find them.  Maybe I should quote them to you.

MR VISSER: I suppose you want to refer to Exhibit A1, page 58 to 60.  I think it's Exhibit A1 Mr Chairman, pages 58 to 60.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ismail have you taken a look at Exhibit A1, that's the white covered one, page 58, is that not the reference you are looking for?  Page 58 it's got the heading "Conduct of War and Civilian Casualties", paragraph 6.2.4 on page 58.

MR VISSER: Second last paragraph in the right-hand column under that paragraph number deals with the car bomb of the Church Street.  I thought that was what Mr Ismail was looking for but he's obviously looking for something different.

MR TRENGOVE: The topic is also raised again in the second submission, that's in Exhibit A2.1 at page 13, paragraph 2.2.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  2.2 page 13 of the green document.

UNKNOWN: I think on the document A2.1 would be more pertinent on page 14, "Armed actions and civilian casualties".

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: What I am seeking Mr Chairperson is a quote by our President, President Tambo at the time.

MR TRENGOVE: Is that the documents where he's dealing with the Kabwe Conference?  That was later.

MR VISSER: If Mr Ismail would just tell us what he is looking for perhaps we can assist him.

CHAIRPERSON: He is looking for a quote by the then President of the ANC Mr O Tambo on this point that's been raised.