Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I recall three Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: How many people did you arrest there?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Three Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Were they Mr Ndlovu, Mr Vilakazi and Mr Mtshali?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you know them before?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I didn't know them personally, I knew of them Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you know of their activities?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And that it was alleged that they played a significant role in MK terror operations in Port Natal?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct sir.

MR VISSER: So, at the safe house at Verulam, anything that happened there?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, we spoke to them, separated them and spoke to them.

MR VISSER: Were they assaulted?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you assault anyone?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes, I did Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Whom did you assault?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I don't recall which of the three I assaulted Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: One of the tree?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I spoke to all three on occasions Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Could you have assaulted all three of them?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It is possible Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What was the purpose of assaulting them?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, we had information they were on their way to go and do a military operation and I wanted a little bit more facts, very quickly, so I beat them just to make sure that I was going to get what I needed, in time, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: How did you assault them?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I would have slapped and punched Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Slapped with the open hand?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: And with my fists Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Where on the body of these persons?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It would have been to the face, the ears, the chest Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And were they punched in the face as well?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did they give an explanation about the limpet mines which you found in their possession?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Well, I was informed that they were to be used on that evening's military operation Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, but in your interrogation, did the kwaMashu 3 give an explanation of their possession of the three limpet mines, that you can remember?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, not specifically to me was it made, however, I recall being informed that the military weaponry had come from Nxiweni.

MR VISSER: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody say that they had been left with them, and they were going to throw them away?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Not to me Mr Chairman, I did hear that later though sir.

MR VISSER: All right, so what transpired thereafter?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: After that, Mr Taylor arrived at the safe house Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Could you just speak up a little bit Mr Wasserman, I find it extremely difficult to hear you.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Taylor arrived at the safe house Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did he take over?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did he give instructions?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Instructions were then given.

MR VISSER: What did he say?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: These persons, this unit, was to be taken out to the scene where they were going to do their military activity.

MR VISSER: And eliminated?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: And eliminated at the scene and it was to look as though they had had a mishap in the handling of their own explosives.

MR VISSER: Yes, and is that what happened?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is what happened Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you go out to the scene?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Accompanied by?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Taylor.

MR VISSER: Botha?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Botha, myself and Mr Du Preez.

MR VISSER: All right, Mr Botha gave evidence to say that Taylor remained in the car with these three persons.  I am sorry, just bear a moment with me Mr Chairman.
	I repeat, is it correct that when you arrived there, Mr Taylor remained in the car with the three persons?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you went somewhere?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What did you go and do and where did you go?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Went to a point on the railway line not too far from Phoenix railway station Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Du Preez, myself and Botha each had a member of this unit under our control.

MR VISSER: You escorted them to this point?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We escorted them to the point on the railway line Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And what happened there?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Well, at this point, each one of us had control of a member of the unit.

MR VISSER: Which one did you have control of or don't you remember?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I don't remember Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, and?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: At a sign from Mr Botha, we each shot the one that we were responsible for, once in the head Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Just how did this happen?  First of all, was it during the day or at night?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, it was dark, it was night time Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Dark?  Were they standing up when they were shot?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, they were on haunches Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did someone or all of you, instruct them to sit down?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And to do what?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I just said merely, you know, sit down Mr Chairman, I didn't tell them to do anything.

MR VISSER: Was it light enough so that you could see around you?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes, it was Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And you say there was a sign by Botha?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: There was a nodding of the head Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you then said that they were all shot, all three of them, with a single shot?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Initially all shot with a single shot, with I had a Scorpion with a silencer on Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And the others, did they use firearms with or without silencers?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: All silenced weapons Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And after you had shot, the three of you had shot one shot into the heads of the victims, what happened then?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, then they were placed upon...

MR VISSER: First of all, did you fire only one shot into the heads?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Oh no, Mr Chairman, I fired a second shot into my victim.

MR VISSER: And the others?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: They also did, to my recollection.

MR VISSER: To your recollection?  All right, they were then placed you said, just continue?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: They were then placed on top of an explosive device, their explosive devices that they had when we arrested them that evening.

MR VISSER: What part of their bodies were placed on the explosive device, on the limpet mines?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: The hands and head sir.

MR VISSER: And what was the purpose of that?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: The explosion would render their identities, make them unidentifiable Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, and the fact that they were shot in the head?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

MR VISSER: Are you an explosives expert?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No.

MR VISSER: Who prepared the limpet mines for the explosion?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It was done by Mr Du Preez sir.

MR VISSER: All right, and did you then leave?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And did you hear the report of the limpet mines detonating?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you take part at all in their interrogation or should I rather ask this, was your interrogation of these three directed at attempting to persuade them to become informers on this occasion?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Why was that?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I had no, I never ever thought that they would even think about it.

MR VISSER: Becoming informers?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: About working with the State,yes.