Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

ADV TEE: Were any of his personal effects, like his shoes and his clothing, removed from the scene?

CONRAD NKUNA: Nothing was taken from his possession, personally.

ADV TEE: What type of clothing was he wearing that day, was it cheap or expensive clothing?

CONRAD NKUNA: He was wearing expensive clothes, I would say it was a suit.

ADV TEE: Can you describe his shoes?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean, describing his shoes?

ADV TEE: Were the shoes expensive or cheap shoes that he was wearing?

CONRAD NKUNA: It was a very expensive shoe with the name of Christiaan Dior.

ADV TEE: Mr Nkuna, what you are saying is that after the attack the car was not stolen, the car was not stolen, the money was not stolen, his expensive shoes were not stolen, his suit was not stolen, but all that was missing was his briefcase?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: That is exactly what I understood him to say Mr Tee, I don't know whether it is necessary to repeat it.

CHAIRPERSON: Except that you forgot to ask about the watch.

ADV TEE: Thank you.  Was he wearing a watch?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes.

ADV TEE: Was it an expensive watch?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, he was wearing a very expensive watch from the USA.

ADV TEE: So after the attack, none of the normal things that one would expect in a robbery, was removed but a briefcase was removed?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV TEE: So when you refer to the suspicious circumstances of the attack of your brother, is that what led you to make your assumption?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV TEE: And then also you testified about the fact that the car had been cleaned before the police arrived?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the briefcase or the contents ever recovered?

CONRAD NKUNA: We didn't get anything up to today.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nkuna, can you just explain to me why you believed that it was the State's hand in your brother's attack.   Why should the State hire assassins within the ANC to attack your brother and not be able to attack your brother on their own, why should they recruit people within the ANC?

CONRAD NKUNA: It was because at the time when he got injured, only the ANC people knew his whereabouts and his movements and since it was late when it happened, I would say that was the reason.

ADV TEE: Now in your attack on Mr Shabangu's house, you said that two grenades were thrown?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV TEE: Who threw the first grenade and who threw the second grenade?

CONRAD NKUNA: Soli Morapi threw the first and the second by Skosana.

ADV TEE: What happened to the grenade thrown by Solomon?

CONRAD NKUNA: He threw it through the window and the window had curtains and some burglar proof, it hit the burglars, fell outside and exploded.  The second one managed to get into the house, and exploded.

ADV TEE: And did that go into the room of Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

ADV TEE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: You indicated that you preferred to argue only after Mr Skosana has testified in his own application?

ADV TEE: Mr Chairman that is correct yes, but I will be available tomorrow and on Friday, I have not time constraints at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, do you have witnesses to call?

ADV PATEL: At this stage, no, we will get a clear indication immediately after lunch when Mr Skosana appears.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for information Mr Black, do you intend to call any witnesses?

MR BLACK: No Mr Chairman, and I understand from the applicant that no further evidence will be led on their behalf so certainly on behalf of the Commission, I don't intend calling any evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's adjourn until two o'clock then.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, you said you would indicate to us after lunch time whether or not you had any witnesses?

ADV PATEL: I can now indicate with confidence, that I will not have any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: So then that concludes the proceedings in respect of the applications of J.H. Nkuna and C. Nkuna and Mr Tee, who represents both applicants, has indicated to us that he wishes to argue later after listening to the evidence in the next application.  Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, there is just one aspect which I wish to raise with my learned friend, Mr Mojapelo before we commence proceedings.  May I just approach him and it need not be placed on record.
	Primarily it refers to the seating arrangements, I am not quite sure if the applicant would be comfortable sitting next to the previous two applicants, presenting his evidence.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, isn't the position that we have completed the application of the Nkuna's and that they at this stage, are not figuring as applicants, so can't they be excused and sit somewhere in the public gallery and we could proceed with the next application?

MR BLACK: With respect Adv De Jager, that is what I propose, when I noticed what was happening here, I would suggest that that would be a far more comfortable arrangement as far as the applicant is concerned and the presentation.  His legal representatives can possibly remain where they are.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Except that they may from time to time, have to give instructions to their counsel as and when Mr Skosana will be giving evidence in which case I - surely counsel must be able to sort the seating out, it shouldn't be for us to do that.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, could I suggest that you move over and let the applicant come and sit in your place?

MR BLACK: I have no objection to that, I have not objection to that, except that Mr Tee hasn't, the Instructing Attorney, who could convey anything to him as it happens in a normal court practice if the other two applicants resume sit, but I certainly have no objections to move, it would be a little shuffling of papers, but that is about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Alternatively we may have to suggest that if that would not inconvenience Mr Patel, too much, Mr Patel and his attorney to sit where you are sitting Mr Black and you, Mr Black,  you and your client with Mr Mojapelo, you sit at the middle table.

MR BLACK: Yes, that would be fine.

CHAIRPERSON: ... but with regard to the previous two applications, can you quickly do that?  We can close those proceedings formally and then move on to the next application.

ADV TEE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I made enquiries, it related to the position of Chris Hani.  My enquiries, during the year of 1992, enquiries reveal that in 1991 Chris Hani, the late Chris Hani was elected to become the Secretary General of the South African Communist Party as a consequence of that, he did not participate in the Command structure of MK, he was the Chief of Staff up until he became Secretary General.
	I am given to understand that he did in fact continue as Chief during the transition period, Chief of Staff before handing over to Mr Sipiwe Nyanda, who became Chief of Staff of MK.  Mr Joe Modise was always a Commander of MK.  So all I can in fairness to the applicant put, that there is a serious doubt that at the time in 1992, Chris Hani would have been actively participating in the Command structure of MK.  Thank you, that is all.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.