Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR LAX: Thank you.  Did any of your sub-ordinates, the people who were under your command, ever retain money that was never given to you or to the administrator?

MR MASEKO: The people who were in my unit, they would give everything to me they would give me all the money after each and every operation.

MR LAX: Well then why was it necessary to add that last paragraph if it was something that never happened?

MR MASEKO: I told you from the beginning that the experience that I had, I know very well that such things used to happen before but not in this particular incident but I had experience of that type of thing.

MR LAX: What happened or was there ever a situation where having used your initiative to identify a target and engaged in an operation, on reporting such operation you were regarded with disapproval?  How would that be dealt with?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember anything of that nature.

MR LAX: Did it never happen as far as you are aware?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember anything of that nature.

MR LAX: Okay, so although you can't remember it ever having happened to you, what was the policy of APLA in relation to cadres who might carry operations that were not within the policy?  How would APLA deal with that as a commander you must have known what that mechanism would be?

MR MASEKO: I think the best people to answer to that is the APLA leadership.

MR LAX: Now I just wanted to clarify something about your job as a hawker when you were doing that.  You said in reply to some questions from Ms Gcabashe that you did that after the cessation, long after the cessation of hostilities - did I hear you correctly?

MR MASEKO: Yes that's correct.

MR LAX: You see if you look on page 68 of the papers, what is said in this statement in the last sentence you talk about this new job you were given because of your age and how you did it and who helped you and so on and then in the last line you said "I did this job until the announcement of suspension of armed struggle."  So it couldn't have been long after that, you did it until that happened.  Can you explain this, it's a bit confusing for us?
ADV. GCABASHE: Mr - if I might just try and remember my question I thought it was in relation also to this particular incident, it was a composite question.  I actually said in relation to this incident was it before or after the incident, so as not to confuse the applicant in his answer.  I tied them all together.

MR LAX: Sorry, what seems clear from your evidence - maybe we can clarify this first - what seems clear from your evidence was that after you finished with your unit Beauty Saloon, you then had a new task assigned to you and that task was hawking, correct or not correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR LAX: Then you see the issue is when did you do that job and you said to us you did it long after the cessation of the armed struggle and you confirmed that now in your evidence.  Do we understand one another?

MR MASEKO: Yes, I hear you.

MR LAX: However in this statement you say that you did the hawking job up until the time the armed struggle was suspended not after that.  That's what I'm wanting you to explain please.  In other words you say you stopped doing this job as a hawker when the armed struggle was suspended whereas your previous evidence was that you did this job long after that point in time.  Do you understand me?  We just need to clarify this little bit of confusion here.

MR MASEKO: I think it's a mistake but it's true that long after the suspension of the armed struggle I started selling the vegetables.  It was long after the suspension of armed struggle.  I think it's just a confusion there.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say there also that during the time you were selling vegetables you will be transporting arms from a point to another - taking arms from the Transkei to Lesotho.  Was that long after the end of the armed that you were taking arms around?

MR MASEKO: I did explain that when they announced about the suspension of the armed struggle there were people who were dissatisfied and I was one of them but now we had weapons, we had arms and we were not prepared to surrender the arms, that's why we had to transport them from point A to point B though we were dissatisfied about the suspension of the armed struggle.

MR LAX: Just one last aspect.  There's a little bit of confusion with the date of your meeting in Maseru.  You remember going to a meeting in Maseru where you met with Letlape, number two was yourself that's Njebe, Ntate and Tbogo, there were four of you present. Do you remember that meeting?

MR MASEKO: That happened when we were in Lesotho.

MR LAX: Now you say there were two items only on the agenda?  You said the coming elections and number two the way forward on the question on the elections.  Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.

MR LAX: Which elections were these?

MR MASEKO: I was referring to the elections, the coming elections.

MR LAX: The ones that are coming in 1999?

MR MASEKO: I'm referring to the 1999 elections.

MR LAX: Well that explains then the date and then we can begin to understand you.
	So in effect you yourself and your comrades ceased the armed struggle at that meeting?  That's when you finally decided that the armed struggle was a waste of time and you were rather going to go for the elections?  Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: I don't agree with you completely.  We were no longer going on with the operations but we decided to help the PAC, it's not that we were still continuing the operations at the time.

MR LAX: There's a distinction here, you said in your previous evidence that you didn't carry out any more operations, that we accept so far.  You did however say that you were making preparations and planning to maybe disrupt the elections - that you did say or did I not hear you properly because you still hadn't finally decided that the armed struggle should cease - you were dissatisfied?

MR MASEKO: I didn't say anything about disturbing the elections but I said we were prepared to help the PAC during the elections so that the elections can go on without any disturbance.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one point I'd like to clarify - when you went to this attack on the university to get the money - who provided the weapons for your unit?

MR MASEKO: I did explain before that APLA was running short of arms.  Each and every unit would be given the arms but it would happen occasionally that a certain unit does not have enough arms and we would go and borrow the arms from another unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, where did you get the arms from on this occasion?

MR MASEKO: We got these arms from the previous operations that had taken place but with this, I beg your pardon, we borrowed the arms from another unit from other units.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you borrow enough?

MR MASEKO: There were enough but I was just an additional person that's why there was that kind of a shortage.  I became an additional member.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know how much money or did you know there was going to be a great deal of money at the university - money that had been paid in by students, mainly African students, for their admission to the university?

MR MASEKO: The money who was from the African students but it was already in the hands of the university where these Boers were running the government at the time were in charge.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew there was a lot of money there?

MR MASEKO: Yes we knew.

CHAIRPERSON: From looking at the list of cases in which you have applied for amnesty this was far and away the largest amount of money involved, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: I haven't read that statement yet therefore I'm not sure whether it's true or false.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you filled it in and you swore to it as being correct - your application for amnesty - do you remember, you listed 28 different incidents?