Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-11

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The only other source of information we received during the day of the 28th was people were monitoring the radio reports.  702 in particular were monitoring and we were getting quite a good update in terms of what was happening, the type of chaos that was happening in town at the hostels, shooting of the police and those sort of things, we were getting feedback on the radio.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what did the situation look like outside Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There were many people who were fleeing, from where they were fleeing we don't know, but from different areas into Shell House to obtain some form of security or shelter from what was happening in town, and it was fairly tense, the guards were fairly tense, as the day was going along as things were happening, as the marchers started to pass by Shell House I think tension began to rise, we began to feel the pressure and were very apprehensive about what might happen.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were people who were fleeing from, whatever they were fleeing from, allowed to come into the foyer of Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: We had a screening process at the door where people where people were searched and checked and it was a very difficult decision because one of the theories we had that people might come in as individuals into Shell House and then launch an attack from there, but as an organisation which cares about people we had to make a very difficult decision where we had to allow people in at discretion and take those chances.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were there any policemen at Shell House, when did you see the first policeman there?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I saw policemen which were leading the previous marchers past Shell House, and then the next time I saw the policemen was just prior to the main incident when about five members of the police and five members of the SANDF, or SADF at that stage, arrived at Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please tell the Committee about these police led groups of marchers, how many were there on that morning before the main incident?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I recall three, three marches prior to the main incident.

GEORGE BIZOS: Give us more or less the time when they were and what did they look like, and what did they do, and what was your reaction?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The first march was, times are very difficult, but it was early in the morning, probably at nine, around there, and the march was going in a westerly direction, from east to west, and they moved in a very provocative manner past Shell House, launching mock attacks, slashing election posters around Shell House, and our guards were very very apprehensive and very tense but we, as I say, we gave consistent orders for the strain and we analysed the situation from second to second the make sure that we didn't have to act with any unnecessary force.

GEORGE BIZOS: You say "we" gave orders, who is the "we"?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I gave orders on two different occasions for restraint.  I also received orders from Commissioners Gadu and other leaders of the ANC to act with restraint throughout the morning.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which leaders of the ANC were there on that morning?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I remember specifically Ntlhantlha speaking to me, I remember speaking to Maduna and he spoke to me about ...[indistinct], but I'm aware that Walter Sisulu was in the building, Gill Marcus was in the building, Pallo Jordan was in the building, Terror Lekota was in the building, that's the names I can think of who were in the building.  I think most of the leaders would have been in the building that day.

GEORGE BIZOS: You told us that the one was at about 09h00 and how they behaved, was any action taken against them because of their provocative behaviour?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm not sure whether it was the first march or the second, I'm not exactly sure about the time periods now, but at one stage the police which were escorting the marchers directed their firearms at the guards on the balcony and also there was a large congregation of marchers in the vicinity and the front of Shell House.
 	Mr Terror Lekota then came out and went to speak to the police, I think it was a Major, I'm not sure who it was, one of the policemen in charge of those groups of policemen and asked him not to direct the weapons at our guards because they're trying to do their job and he also asked him to move the marchers away from the building which he subsequently did.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that some of the police were directing their firearms towards Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were directing - our members were on the parapet on the top, and they were directing their weapons, standing in that type of position, pointing towards the guards.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who do you say spoke to this police officer?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Terror Lekota spoke to them and then I think he resolved the problem.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened as a result of Mr Lekota telling the police not to point?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They ceased pointing and moved the marchers along.  The marchers then moved away from Shell House itself.  There was then the last march before the big march at roundabout tennish, I remember this quite clearly.  I was on top of the parapet at that stage and there were marchers moving in a southerly direction up, down Klein Street from north to south, and the marchers also act in a very similar manner but proceeded past Shell House.
	So at that stage I saw from the top position, I had a very clear view what type of weapons I could see amongst them, various dangerous weapons including one AK47 which was hidden in a jacket but I could see the point of the - I'm not sure it was an AK, but it was definitely an automatic rifle's front, coming from the top of the jacket as he was carrying it.  
	This group proceeded towards Lancet Hall which is the Bree Street side of Lancet Hall, and a heavy exchange of gunfire took place.  Whether it was between the marchers and the ANC guards at Lancet Hall, I'm not aware, but there was a heavy exchange of fire and the marchers retreated back in a northerly direction.  
	This also caused a lot of apprehension for our members and again I called on our members to act with restraint because I think they were very tense because now there was gunshots firing, although not in our direction.

GEORGE BIZOS: When this group passed Shell House, in what direction were they walking?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were moving from north to south towards Lancet Hall.

CHAIRPERSON: Along what road?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Klein Street.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did any group march from west to east in front of Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, there was one group from west to east and one from east to west.  There were two other groups besides the third which I recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: The group that moved from west to east, would they be going towards or away from Library Gardens where the gathering was supposed to be?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That would be away from Library Gardens.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you speak to any of the guards after the sound of gunfire from the direction of Lancet Hall?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, I leaned over the parapet, some of our guys were standing in the road and I specifically said to them that the gunfire is not directed at us we must act with restraint, we need to act with restraint, and I emphasised that and I think after that I went down myself.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you go up to the parapet at all?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I moved between the parapet and the ground floor on various occasions to get a better view of what was happening.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please tell us what you did and what you saw whilst on the parapet?