Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR MASEKO: We have identified a lot of targets and there was specific reason but even UNITRA was falling under the same category that we're identifying - even UNITRA was the same target as the other institutions so it was just one of them.
ADV. GCABASHE: Again, staying with the actual shooting itself, you say when you got injured you went to the residences, that's correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.
ADV. GCABASHE: Now, do you remember the student who assisted you, who bandaged you at the residences, was it Nolita who you have mentioned somewhere in your testimony?

MR MASEKO: It was not Nolita it was just a student.
ADV. GCABASHE: Now what exactly did you say to this student to get this assistance from him or her?

MR MASEKO: First of all I told lies I said I got injured while I just a passer by then he..she...[intervention]
ADV. GCABASHE: Then he or she?  Sorry I didn't get that was it a female student or a male student?

MR MASEKO: It was a girl.
ADV. GCABASHE: Alright, now a question was asked of you, did you ask them, that is your unit members, why they killed and injured people instead of just taking the money?  I didn't get your answer to that.  This is when they were reporting back to you later, did you ask them that question?

MR MASEKO: I didn't ask that question but they explained it to me and I was satisfied after hearing their reasons because I gave them the instructions that no one should be injured from our side.
ADV. GCABASHE: And if you don't mind explaining that reason again?  What exactly did they say, why did they shoot?

MR MASEKO: When they came in as they were armed it became clear that the police shot at them and they had to shoot back and at the end of the day they managed to get the money.
ADV. GCABASHE: Now just generally about yourself.  You've mentioned in you affidavit that you were involved in selling small things, hawking business essentially.  When exactly was this - just give me a rough time period?  Before or after this incident?

MR MASEKO: It was long after the suspension of the armed struggle.
ADV. GCABASHE: And then one final one but I think it's just an error on your application - this particular incident, this shooting took place in 1993, not 1992 as reflected on page 7 of the bundle, is that correct?  Just to correct that small detail?

MR MASEKO: I've forgotten but I think you people have got the right information because I was just estimating.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you, no further questions.
ADV. SANDI: Mr Maseko, you made mention of two, three commanders actually, who were in charge of the different groups as they were about to launch the attack at the university, do you recall that?

MR MASEKO: Yes I can remember.
ADV. SANDI: These three commanders, were they also part of the decision to attack the university?

MR MASEKO: The three of these commanders were the members of this unit therefore they were there when the decision was taken.
ADV. SANDI: Now, who exactly was responsible for the decision that an attack should be launched at the university?  It was yourself?

MR MASEKO: As the overall commander of the unit I was the one who would identify the target and I would even approve on targets.
ADV. SANDI: Are you saying that you were the first person to come up with the suggestion that an attack should be launched at the university, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.
ADV. SANDI: Well I would further suppose that some kind of a discussion took place amongst yourselves or between yourself and any other person.  Can you tell us about - did any discussion take place between yourself about this decision with your superior or anyone of those who were going to take part in the attack?

MR MASEKO: I never discussed the matter with my superiors instead I discussed with them after the operation and I would like to clarify this to you because it looks like you don't understand this.  Do you agree that I explained this to you?
ADV. SANDI: I'm trying to make sure that I follow your testimony Mr Maseko.  Let me put my question differently, did anyone come up with a counter-suggestion to the idea that the university should be attacked?

MR MASEKO: No, no one opposed that.
ADV. SANDI: Now let us talk about the administrator, you said he has since deceased?

MR MASEKO: That information I got from prison, when I was in prison, I beg your pardon.
ADV. SANDI: You do not have any knowledge as to what sort of circumstances led to his death?

MR MASEKO: I heard that he was sick and it's not long ago - that happened recently.
ADV. SANDI: Maybe one last question about the administrator.  Was there any way in which the administrator could satisfy himself that some monies he had given to members of APLA were used for the purposes for which they had been requested?

MR MASEKO: It's difficult for me to answer that question because I was not actually working with the administrator.
ADV. SANDI: Maybe we shouldn't take that one any further.  Thank you Mr Maselo.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.
	Just while we're on the question of the monies and how you got them from the administrator - do I understand your evidence correctly that when you want to engage in an operation, you went to the administrator and you said look this is what we need to do, these are the expenses we're likely to incur and can we have this much money.  Do I understand it correctly?

MR MASEKO: That's what I said.

MR LAX: Did you only ask for money from the administrator when you were doing operations?

MR MASEKO: It was known and even today that APLA didn't have money.  We were asking for money for different reasons or maybe money for food because APLA didn't have money.

MR LAX: Spell out those reasons for us please?  What might there be in your own experience?

MR MASEKO: Transport, food and rent because sometimes we had to rent the places that we're staying in.  There were different purposes for asking for money therefore I can't mention all of them.

MR LAX: Did you ever, in your own experience as an APLA person, did you ever retain monies for those purposes without giving them to the administrator?

MR MASEKO: That looks like an insult.  I was not a mercenary - that looks like an insult to me, I am not pleased with that question - I was not a mercenary, we were not getting any salary, that question looks like an insult to me.

MR LAX: Mr Maseko, you easily take offence about such things, I'm not for one moment suggesting you were being mercenary, there may have been any number of good reasons why you couldn't have given the money to the administrator immediately, there may have been other important exigencies, who knows but please if you feel offended I'm not trying to offend you.
	In the normal initiative that you would have had as a commander, there may have been very good reasons why you needed to retained some monies.  You maybe reported 
about those monies so please don't pretend to be offended here, I'm not trying to offend you, I'm really trying to understand how you worked.

MR MASEKO: I've already explained that even if the amount of money was not enough but we would take it to the administrator.  You just read the statement that is actually implying that I wanted people to be trustworthy and then you again you are asking me about such operation whereby I would take the money instead or I would take the money for ourselves not taking it to the administrator, you've just heard that on the statement that I wanted the comrades to be trustworthy.

MR LAX: Well that's precisely what I'm leading to so I'm going to ask you this question again and if you choose to be offended, you may be offended, did you ever retain monies for whatever purpose without giving them to administrator?  A simple yes or no would be sufficient.

MR MASEKO: That never happened.