Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-07

MR AVENANT: That is the organogram which also is reflected in Exhibit C?
	The function of the Security Branch, what exactly was that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Our function in the system was, firstly perhaps I should just give you a bit of background, the total system which existed, started at the lowest level, at the police station, where the departments were represented, then it went to regional level and divisional level and then to the national level in the State Security Council.
	So there was a total interaction between the ground level and the top level.  The President was right at the Head there.
	So there was an interaction both ways, and what I am trying to say is that in this entire system, each policeman later felt that he didn't know whether the instructions he was given, came from Police Headquarters or the JMC or where it came from, so confusion arose.
	The Security Branch, to answer your question, the Security Branch's question was the provision of intelligence in the system.  It was known as the JIC, Joint Information Centre.

MR AVENANT: Paragraph 26?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: The nature of this conflict and violence had blurred the traditional distinction between combatants and non-combatants, between legitimate and illegitimate targets and more importantly, between acceptable and unacceptable methods.
	That often occurred in the grey area between legitimate orders given, the interpretation of such orders, in circumstances where secrecy and other factors made proper communication difficult or impossible.
	Requests which were not always properly expressed or formulated, and a mixing of cultures of the various security departments through the National Management System, which negatively effected the normal day to day function of the South African Police - once again a confirmation of what I have already said.

MR AVENANT: 29 deals with the political pressure.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: A grey area was to develop in which all parties became more and more desperate and various political leaders on both sides of the political spectrum, exerted their forces to greater heights and pressurised them to achieve further successes in carrying out their respective tasks.
	The individual forces were thus required to adopt all the methods and techniques which are normally employed in conventional warfare, so as to function as effectively as possible.
	Informers and agents filled an all important role in gathering vital information and in this regard, it successfully penetrated the ranks of opposing forces.  In this life and death and often deadly struggle, a successful informer/agent could often save lives, but at the same time, could also cause the death of others as a result of his information being intercepted or otherwise obtained by opposing forces.
	The way the system functioned, the information was channelled through two different channels down to the bottom level, the one was the ordinary line function channel of the Police and the other one was through the JMC channel.
	Both of these channels were normally seen by Commanders on the ground, as pressure exerted on the one hand by the government, on the other hand, by the Head of the department.

MR AVENANT: Chairperson, I want to go back to Annexure A, to the application, page 180.
	General, we have now dealt with the background, the circumstances reigning in the Eastern Cape at the time.  When you were appointed as the Regional Commander of the Security Branch, Border, where you were from 1986 onwards to May 1989, please just sketch your involvement in Project Katzen.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, to start with, my function was not limited and my area of competence rather, I was limited to the Border area, but my function also went as far as the Transkei and the Ciskei because we combated terrorism jointly and we had an agreement, a cooperation agreement with each other, not written, but an oral agreement.
	Therefore, I to a very large extent, was dependent of the Police Forces of the Transkei and the Ciskei and during this period, somewhere in 1986, I can't remember the specific date, I received a telephonic instruction from Brigadier Schoon from Security Headquarters to attend a meeting in Port Elizabeth.
	I wasn't told by Brigadier Schoon what the meeting was about.  The meeting took place on SADF premises under the Chairmanship of Gen Joubert of SADF Special Forces.
	Brigadier Schoon attended the meeting on behalf of the South African Police.  As far as I can recall, the following persons attended the meeting, Brigadier, now General Van der Westhuizen, Commanding Officer of Eastern Province Command, he was the Chairperson of the JMC, Colonel Du Plessis, SADF, Commanding Officer, command Eastern Province, he was the Secretary of the JMC, Colonel Hall, SADF Commanding Officer, commanding Eastern Province command, and Mr Hall, NID, National Intelligence, Commanding Officer of the Eastern Province, that was National Intelligence.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Gen Griebenauw, the second Mr Hall, I think I have seen it some other place in this documents, spelt Holl?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Holl, so I will just change that Hall for Holl?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, please do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.