Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ADV GCABASHE: In this particular matter, now, yesterday and today, implicating him in this matter, in this?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Are you referring to this amnesty application?

ADV GCABASHE: To the amnesty application, yes?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't implicate him because I am angry, it is because I want to get amnesty.

MR PRIOR: The way to get amnesty is to suggest to this Committee that you were acting on the instructions of Jimmy Jones, the Commander.  That is being explained, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As far as my thoughts go, the way for someone to get amnesty, is to confess all the truths at the Commission.

MR PRIOR: But it makes your case better, if you committed these murders, etc, on the instructions of Mr Jimmy Jones, because without those instructions you basically don't have much hope, do you?
	Do you agree with that, do you agree?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't agree with you.  I think here at the Commission people are expected to speak the truth before they can get amnesty.  For me to say we were instructed by Jimmy Jones in things we did, it is saying the truth, not because I am trying to implicate him because I want amnesty.
	This is the truth for me to say he was the one who instructed us.

MR PRIOR: Would you agree that the evidence we have heard thus far, the PAC and APLA, very intricately involved with each other, in December 1993, had made an announcement regarding the suspension of the armed struggle and again at the caucus or at the National Congress at Unitra, over the 16th and 17th of January 1994, had then finally indicated to the world, that it had suspended its armed struggle.  Do you agree with those facts, or that information?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I too heard that, about what came out of the Congress in Unitra, that the armed struggle APLA had suspended.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that Jimmy Jones was sufficiently senior within the ranks of APLA to have been informed of that decision by the PAC?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, I will not be able as they were the High Commanders of APLA, as to who was told and who may not have been told.  I do not know sir, how it operated.

MR PRIOR: No, do you think he was senior enough, you heard, and you were a foot soldier, he was a Commander.  I am just asking, don't you think that he was or did you not think that he had access to that sort of information within the ranks of the organisation?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see sir, to know or not to know on his part, I do not want to lie, I do not know.  I don't know about that as to whether he knew or not.
	What I think is that he did not know, see he instructed us to more operations even after that announcement that the armed struggle had been suspended.

MR PRIOR: That announcement came after many bitter years of struggle, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: And is it not correct that the people fighting the war of liberation, were also to a certain extent, tired of the struggle of the fight, of the war?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, I do not know that, but as far as I know, you cannot be tired trying to achieve what you want, before you have got it.

MR PRIOR: And the armed struggle was suspended as I understand it, because your political organisation had agreed to participate in the democratic election, which occurred in fact a few weeks after these incidents, on the 27th of April.  That date had been announced during March at least, is that correct?  The date was known, that the elections would take place on the 27th of April 1994?  Do you agree with that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: With me sir, I cannot deny what you are saying, but I cannot agree sir, as I was not in that Congress at Unitra.

MR PRIOR: As I recall it, certainly throughout the country, at least during March or the beginning of March, posters were up on the lamp posts and in the streets.  I remember the ANC posters, I remember the PAC posters, and all the other political parties, were all canvassing for support.  Do you recall that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I too saw them sir.

MR PRIOR: In other words there was movement within the political groups to obtain support from the public at large, moving towards the elections in April, is that right?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I too think so, sir.

MR PRIOR: Did Mr Jones, ever tell you when you met him as you say you did, after the Bahai Church attack, did he ever say that now that you had done this thing, this is your group, you now had come running to him in Butterworth and you were creating the impression among the people there, that he had in fact sent you when in fact that wasn't the truth and that is why he was reprimanding your group?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir, he never said such a thing.

MR PRIOR: Did he not also say to you this has happened now at a time when the armed struggle had been suspended, that it was at an end?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir, he never said such a thing.

MR PRIOR: Did you say such a thing in your trial in East London, did you mention that in your evidence?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see sir, I do not remember everything that was said at that case during our trial, and what I also said, and also the confession statement, I remember some of the things because I have read it and it is in front of me now.

MR PRIOR: Did Mr Malinga also tell your group at that occasion that you had done this thing, and I am trying to put it into contest, Bahai Church at a time when they, the base camp, was sending people back to their homes, now you are coming back to them?
	In other words the impression I get is that this attack had not been sanctioned by Jimmy Jones, and it had happened at such an untimely occasion because people were being sent back to their homes, because the armed struggle had been suspended.  Did that not ever happen?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, Jimmy Malinga never said such a thing to us, that is sir.  Also the attack, I was not there when they got the orders that they must go and attack the Bahai, but I am sure (indistinct) gave them orders that they must go and attack Bahai because if he did not do so, then he must have talked the way I lied at the Police, but he did not say the same thing.  He was happy that that mission was successful and accepted the car as it is still with him right now sir.

MR PRIOR: Was it not stated or not said either by Malinga or Jimmy Jones after you had reported the Bahai incident, that they were going to give you money to send you home because the armed struggle was now at an end, that is now before Da Gama and Nahoon Dam or any of the other incidents, Highgate Hotel?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, nobody amongst them had ever said such a thing.

MR PRIOR: I want to suggest to you that your group had acted on their own, without the instructions of APLA.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I sir, deny all of that sir, as the person who was part of APLA and as a person who was with other members of APLA because I was not there when they got orders that they must go and attack the Bahai Church.  I came back with them to Transkei.
	Jimmy Jones was then reported to what happened at Bahai, and he was told because they he had instructed I must be brought back, they had done so.  He accepted the car and the report about the Bahai matter and congratulated the group that they had done well.
	And the car too sir, is still with him, that is why I am sure sir, that indeed they were sent by Jimmy Jones, because if he had not sent them, he would not have accepted the car, he would not have accepted the car, nor would he have accepted the report back, nor would he have congratulated them.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said on more than one occasion that the car is still with Jimmy Jones.  This is the car that was stolen at the Bahai Church?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And how do you know it is still with Jimmy Jones?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Because we left it with him sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you mean you left it with Jimmy Jones years ago and you don't know what happened to it after that?