Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MR PRINSLOO: And you did not tell the other people you stopped, to go and sit on the embankment?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you receive such an instruction, how did you interpret this, the fact that people should sit on the embankment?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was to be done because I could then search the cars, looking for weapons.

MR PRINSLOO: But with the other people you didn't do it, you looked for weapons, but you did not follow the instruction with regards to telling them to go and sit on the embankment, why didn't you adhere to your instructions?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Because a lot of the vehicles which were pulled off, there were only one or two people in them.

MR PRINSLOO: You had received an instruction and you did not follow it?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I just did not tell the people to go ad sit on the embankment.

MR PRINSLOO: And you cannot explain it?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Sir, that specific evening at the road block, you only received a short instruction that tonight we are going to work?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct yes.

MR PRINSLOO: When the weapon was handed over to you, you knew that there was going to be trouble?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: What did you mean by that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I thought that when he gave me the weapon, it came to me that tonight there could be a shooting.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you accept that this illegal weapon that you received, the pipe shotgun, that it was an order from the top structure, that that evening you must be ready for something?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Mr Kloppers just handed over the weapon to me.

MR PRINSLOO: When you received that weapon, when you were called together in a military way in uniform, and a weapon was given to you, an illegal weapon, home made shotgun, did you accept that Mr Kloppers received his instructions from the top structure to hand out weapons in order to be ready on that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, it could have happened like that.

MR PRINSLOO: And then later when you went to Mr Martin's smallholding and received the instruction to set up a road block and to seize weapons from people at the road block, you knew that if you seized a weapon from someone, then he could resist himself or even shoot?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know at that stage or foresee that you will use that shotgun?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I did foresee it, that I could have used the shotgun for something like that.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know that you are going to execute a robbery, that you were going to take the weapons from someone?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: If that person did not want to give his weapon, would you have taken it by force?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I would have taken it by violence, that is correct.  Yes, that was the purpose to look for illegal weapons.

MR PRINSLOO: And if he would have shot at you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I would have shot back.

MR PRINSLOO: I do not understand, if he did not want to give the weapon and he resisted, would you have shot him?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, we would have been able to get the weapon.

MR PRINSLOO: Well, if you could not do that, would you have shot him?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, we would have been able to take the weapon.

MR PRINSLOO: If you received an order to shoot him, would you have done it?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: If I had received an order to shoot him, I would have shoot him, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: At the road block, you searched a vehicle and you say that Mr Etienne Visser told you prepare yourself we are going to shoot, where are the other people, your co-applicants?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I saw two people walk pass the Honda, there I saw two people standing, Commandant Kloppers and Deon Martin.  They stood at the Honda.

MR PRINSLOO: When you moved passed the Toyota Cressida at the back, if the Cressida is parked like this, they stood there.

MR PRINSLOO: Where was Andre Visser at that stage?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I couldn't see where Andre Visser was.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know that he manned the blue light?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I did.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see him move away from the blue light?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, at one stage he did move away from the blue light.

MR PRINSLOO: That was when he went to go and look for the other people, but then he returned to his position?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, I cannot say if he returned.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there a line formed when the people were shot?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was a broken line.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see how the people prepared themselves, cocked their weapons?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did not hear someone cock the weapon.  I myself, did prepare myself.  At that stage it was already cocked, there was a round in the barrel.

MR PRINSLOO: Where did you stand in that line when you shot?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I stood in front of the Honda's nose, on this side of the Honda.

MR PRINSLOO: The unbroken line, like you called it, who stood on the left hand side?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Etienne Visser stood there, and on the other side it was Phil Kloppers.  And then the Honda and then three people and then the Toyota Cressida.

MR PRINSLOO: And when people fired?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Deon Martin shot the first shot and directly after that, everybody shot.

MR PRINSLOO: Did Deon Martin shoot in the air?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, he shot at the people.

MR PRINSLOO: How do you know?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I saw it.

MR PRINSLOO: How could you see it in the dark?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I saw the fire from his shotgun.

MR PRINSLOO: When he fired, what did you do?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I also fired.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you fire immediately after him?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Everybody immediately afterwards, fired.

MR PRINSLOO: And you at that stage, accepted that you had an instruction to kill the people?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: After this occurred, it was said in the vehicle that his ear would be taken to Gen Oelofse?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No.

MR PRINSLOO: You knew that you were now involved in a murder?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage did you believe that as a soldier of the AWB, that you reacted on behalf of the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Just a moment please.  That which was said to you at the road cafe, we are going to work tonight, how did you understand it?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, that we were going to work that night.

MR PRINSLOO: Work means a lot of things.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Mr Kloppers only said that tonight we are going to work.

MR PRINSLOO: How did you understand it?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: When he gave me the pipe shotgun, we knew that tonight we would really work.

MR PRINSLOO: What work?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That tonight there would be big trouble.

MR PRINSLOO: What work, that is the question?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is how I understood it, that tonight we are going to work.

MR PRINSLOO: You cannot say what type of work?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, only later at Martin's smallholding we heard that it would be a road block.