Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Barnard felt that the compensation that he received for the execution of the project, which was R15,000, justified paying me an amount of R5,000.

MR VAN ECK: Where did Mr Barnard get the R15,000 from?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: From Mr Luitingh.  He handed it over to him in an envelope and directly from Mr Luitingh he walked back to his vehicle and opened the envelope after we departed.

MR VAN ECK: Was this at the Hyperama parking lot?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes that is where he received the envelope.

MR VAN ECK: At a later stage it emerged within your relationship with Mr Barnard that there was reasonable dissatisfaction regarding the Bruce White incident.  I just want to refer briefly to Bruce White and the reaction of your members there before we return to the Webster incident.  What did you and Mr Barnard do with regard to Mr White?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We conducted observation at his address of employment in order to obtain further information due to Mr Barnard's incapacity to wait, so-to-speak, due to his impatience, which is probably a better word, he forced the situation into a direction which he shouldn't have and he did that with regard to Mr White's movements with his vehicle where he parked his vehicle and so forth.

MR VAN ECK: Did you take Mr Barnard with to conduct observation at Bruce White's residence?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, at his place of employment.

MR VAN ECK: His place of employment.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN ECK: What was the purpose?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: To obtain further information regarding his residential address, his vehicle, his profile, who was travelling with him, who wasn't travelling with him and so forth.

CHAIRPERSON: The Interpreter has requested you to please repeat the question.

MR LAX: Perhaps if you just slow down a tiny bit they will be able to hear you more clearly as well.

MR VAN ECK: Was any provision made with regard to the observation of Bruce White that he would fall?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No that was premature.  Due to the activities of the structure it was a possibility but it was never stated as such.

MR VAN ECK: And you did not apply for indemnity for Bruce White?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Why not, can you explain that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Once again I do not regard it as a gross violation of human rights according to the stipulations for the Indemnity Act.

MR VAN ECK: Was any observation conducted with regard to Bruce White, or was it just for the identification of a name which was given to you by Mr Basson?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: During your observation there was there any confrontation with the police?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, perhaps that is put too strongly, but a situation arose during which the police came to question us regarding our involvement with Mr White.

MR VAN ECK: And as a result thereof you were taken to Brixton Murder and Robbery.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: They asked us to report there for questioning.

MR VAN ECK: Who questioned you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Two members,  but I cannot recall their names.  I apologise, I cannot recall their names.  They were Murder and Robbery detectives.

MR VAN ECK: Was there a Captain Zeelie who was involved at a later stage?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We met him at the Brixton offices, he asked for an explanation, I gave him an explanation, he did not accept it, and on the following day we provided them with a better explanation.

MR VAN ECK: There are two Zeelies, Major Charles Zeelie, the demolitions expert, and Captain Gert Zeelie who was the detective, which one was it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Both are known to me.  Mr Zeelie was with Security Branch and Captain Gert Zeelie was with Murder and Robbery in Brixton.

MR VAN ECK: So it's the second one?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: You worked with Gert?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: The following day you gave a better explanation you said.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I did.

MR VAN ECK: Where did this explanation originate from?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Barnard obtained an explanation regarding a white BMW that we had to take back from a person and that is what I told Mr Zeelie.

MR VAN ECK: What was the reaction of Mr Burger and Mr Verster after it came out that you and Barnard had conducted observation on White together and that your involvement with each other was disclosed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Perhaps that will answer the Chairperson's question better.   Due to this incident I was almost discharged.  I heard later that it had been recommended for me to be immediately discharged.  I said to the rest of the cell members that Mr Barnard was not aware of their existence and anything that was related to that.  They accepted it and I was put on ice, so-to-speak, in the regard that I could not continue with my activities despite the fact that I was still receiving a salary I was not operational at the time of this ice period.

MR VAN ECK: And this was seen as a punitive measure against you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it was embarrassing.

MR VAN ECK: And the fact that you were put on ice was because you were seen by the police or because you were in the company of Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think it was a bit of both.  At that point the organisation had to be protected at all costs and the cut-off point within the cell was not correctly handled and used by Mr Barnard with the execution of this project.

MR VAN ECK: Was your relationship with Mr Barnard, within the context of the CCB, ever approved by the top structure of Region 6?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: After that day did you do any further work whatsoever on Bruce White?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: Do you have any personal knowledge regarding whether anybody else did any further work regarding Bruce White after that time?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you move off just one point of clarity, we heard from Mr Maree when he was asked to monitor or get the address of Gavin Evans he didn't even want to do anything himself.  He didn't want to go out, he didn't want to be seen, why did you yourself, as a member of CCB, physically monitor Mr White?  I thought that was against the rules as well.  I thought you always had to have a cut-off.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was against the rules, but once again I was eager, I was much younger than Mr Maree and I didn't have a sub-structure such as Mr Maree had when he made use of Mr van Zyl's.  And within the structure I had to achieve, especially in the light of my sentiment that I was being placed at a disadvantage, I had to come out of my corner so-to-speak to show them that I could also achieve.

MR VAN ECK: In other words you wanted to make an impression?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Can I just continue in that vein.  Both you and Mr Barnard, again in another incident, then did the work yourself after this in the Webster incident, why did you do it then?  Did you not learn from this experience?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes and no.  If I had to use terminology, we thought we had got away, and once again we felt untouchable to a certain extent.  Geoffrey had not executed the project successfully enough in my opinion and once again I had to achieve.  That is why I did it myself.  You are referring the Rosscam vehicle?

MR LAX: Yes.  And then if I could take it one step even further, in the next chronology of it is the issue of the Early Learning Centre.  Again, but this time with Van Zyl, you both do the work yourselves, most of the work.