Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So once again a black target?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand it in such a way?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, I saw and realised that it is indeed a black target.  What I can say is the way I justified it to myself was that most of the ANC supporters were black people and that it would create fear amongst them.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So when you were driving with Le Roux, you did discuss this issue?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: He only said to me that a taxi rank was the target.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I asked the question to the previous applicant, he couldn't help me, but you were at the game farm and you were also at Koesterfontein, how far were they away from each other?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I'd say Koesterfontein and the game farm, if I make a rough estimate, I would say about 15 to 20 kilometres away from each other.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And from Koesterfontein to Germiston?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I do not know the exact distance but if I had to make an estimate I'd say about 100 kilometres.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And what did you talk about while you were driving this 100 kilometres?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: A great part of the distance we did not say anything - I was scared that we might hit a police roadblock and the other part of the distance I was trying to fix the radio because we no longer had radio communication with the other vehicle and that's that.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Were you also scared that the bomb might explode on the way?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes I was scared of that as well, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And the other members of the crew, of the Koesterfontein group, did they experience similar fears and did they express them?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Not that I know of Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Because I still do not know why it was necessary that four of you went together, in other words, two - I think you used the word "ghost car" or guiding vehicle - and two in the vehicle which towed the trailer?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: If I can give you my opinion about why I was driving with the first vehicle, I think they wanted to train me to take part, so that I can take part in other similar bomb attacks.  I think that's why they gave me the instruction to join them.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If I read the statement of Judge Flemming, the word "commitment" was used - he wanted the commitment of the Natalians, he wanted the commitment of members who didn't do anything, do you think they wanted commitment from your side?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I do believe that, Chairperson, yes.  A physical deed would commit me to the struggle.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Would you have helped with the stealing of the 4x4's?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes, I was in charge of that meeting, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And why would you have stolen 4x4's?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Originally, they said that we would have to drive in areas which was difficult to drive in.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When was this instruction given?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Before the operation of car theft started, that was at the game farm.  I'd say the Saturday evening, if that's correct, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So at that stage you needed the 4x4 vehicles to go on patrols, it was not to make bombs with them?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes, that's correct, that is what General Nico Prinsloo told me.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And I accept that by Saturday evening it was very clear to everyone that the Defence Force will not at all provide you with Ratels and other armoured vehicles?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: It was not pertinently put to us but at that stage I still hoped that the things that was planned with the Defence Force would realise.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But if it would realise, why must you steal 4x4's if the government would provide you with it or the Defence Force would provide you with it?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I do not know why Nico Prinsloo made that decision.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You acted on instructions from Nico Prinsloo, are you going to call him as a witness in your application?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I do not know what Nico Prinsloo's position is at the moment and the reason why he doesn't want to testify here.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you ask him to come and testify?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I think some of the advocates have approached him.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You yourself, did you ever approach him to come and testify?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Why not?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: There was talk about in last week that the advocates would get him here, I did not follow it up further.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did you receive any feedback from your legal team concerning General Nico Prinsloo?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: No, I haven't, I haven't asked them either.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When do you think when you will be able to inform us regarding Nico Prinsloo?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I will take it up with my advocates.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Orders or instructions were also given by Cliffie Barnard, is that correct?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Are you planning to call Barnard to testify regarding his instructions?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Mr Nicolas Barnard withdrew his application in front of the court.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I do not think we've got confirmation about that but will you call him as a witness to give evidence on behalf of you in saying that he gave instructions to you on behalf of the AWB?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Mr Nicolas Barnard is in the same prison as Koper Myburgh - Koper Myburgh was physically here to withdraw his application.  Mr Nicolas Barnard was not even willing to come here and withdraw his own application, he did it through a fax to the TRC and withdrew it in that manner.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But would you like him to testify on behalf of you?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes, I would be glad if he can do it?

CHAIRPERSON: To say what - how will he help you?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: He can help me and some of the other applicants in to come and say that he did give us some of these instructions and that would enforce our case or strengthen our case that the instructions came from the AWB top structure.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that's all from my side.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL

MR BRACHER: Mr Du Plessis, you were a Commandant in the Ystergarde, is that right?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: Barnard was a Captain?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: Why did you take orders from him?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: At various opportunities I saw that Cliff Barnard was in the presence of General Nico Prinsloo and it seemed to me as if Mr Barnard was in charge of certain operations that were launched and because of his order in these operations I accepted his instructions.

MR BRACHER: That's the only reason because you saw him frequently in the company of Prinsloo?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes and I knew that he acted on the instructions of the Generals and staff.

MR BRACHER: Just repeat that last answer please?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I knew that he acted on orders or instructions from the Generals and staff of the AWB.  As I've just said I saw him in the company of General Nico Prinsloo and I made that assumption.

MR BRACHER: That's what I mean, you made an assumption because you saw him with Prinsloo frequently?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: Can you please explain to me what is the purpose of Annexure B that we adjourned for you to read?