Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

UNKNOWN: What is your comment to what Joe Mamasela said on the video this morning that this 
man had to be eliminated because he was now posing a threat to the position of the police inasfar as the 
Harms Commission was concerned, how do you comment on that?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, that which Joe Mamasela said here, he said in a certain office with certain 
Generals, I don't know anything about it, it hasn't been proven, I am not in a position to tell whether it is the 
truth or not.
I cannot comment on this, I don't believe at any rate everything that Joe Mamasela says, because it hasn't 
been proven.

UNKNOWN: But is that what Joe Mamasela said this morning on video not in accord with your 
application page 57, the contents of page 57 of your application?  The first paragraph, somewhere in the 
middle where you start your sentence, it is right in the middle of the first paragraph Mr Chairman and 
members of the Committee.  
		"I read in press articles about Dirk Coetzee and others and discovered that Ngqulunga 
had probably been murdered because he wanted to testify against Coetzee and 
Nofomela, Van der Hoven, etc.", 
Mamasela said this morning?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, it is in agreement with what Mamasela said, but as I said it is untested evidence, it 
has not been proven and as I've also testified if one of these people came and testified here to this effect, 
then I would believe them that it was one more reason why he had been killed.
Griffiths Mxenge's background, I don't know at all, it is 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 125

CAPT MENTZ: only the bits that I hear about in the press, so the deduction that I had to make, or if I were to make the 
deduction that he was a political activist who had to be murdered, I wouldn't know, it is things that I hear 
about afterwards, now.
	There is agreement between what Mamasela said and what I say here and what is said on TV and 
in the press articles, but it is a deduction that I make, but I am still convinced that the main reason was that 
he had been leaking information and this was just something that had become an additional factor, I didn't 
know about this beforehand at all.

UNKNOWN: But what I am trying to make out to you, is that Brian Ngqulunga did not die because of 
his being an informer for the ANC, but he died because the police force was afraid that he was going to 
break down and spill the beans at the Harms Commission, that's all?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, I don't know anything about it, I don't have any knowledge about it.  
These are things that I've heard about afterwards, after the fact and which I had testified about before the 
Committee.	I can't say that this is the case, these things have to be proven, the specific facts haven't 
been proven, the fact that he is a witness before the Harms Commission, I don't in my application, I don't 
think the Harms Commission was even mentioned.

UNKNOWN: The family would like to know as to who erected a tombstone on Ngqulunga's grave, 
because they did not do that?

CAPT MENTZ: It came from police funds.  I don't know specifically which fund, it was probably the 
secret fund. 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 126

ADV DE JAGER: Did you have anything to do with the erection of the tombstone ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: But the money came from the police fund to buy a tombstone.

CAPT MENTZ: No, I didn't.  Yes, I had heard that the tombstone was to be erected, I don't know 
specifically from whom and when, but I don't have first hand knowledge of this.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you inform us if a firearm is set on automatic, an AK47, how many shots are 
fired during a second or how many seconds does it take to empty a magazine, or don't you have any 
knowledge of it?

CAPT MENTZ: I don't have knowledge.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you distinguish the shots if it is fired on automatic?

CAPT MENTZ: If you have a very finely tuned ear and if  you are used to shooting a lot with the firearm, 
you could probably distinguish, but I can't tell you.

ADV DE JAGER: In the post-mortem and at the inquest it was
found that his tongue was missing, do you have any explanation how this could have happened?

CAPT MENTZ: No, I don't have any knowledge of this fact.

JUDGE WILSON: Could you tell me when the attack was on Khan House in Botswana?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chairman, I can.

JUDGE WILSON: When was this?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, I can't remember the exact date.

JUDGE WILSON: It is page 68 in your application.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, I wrote it in in pencil afterwards, I can't remember exactly, it was in that 
period 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 127

CAPT MENTZ: 1989 to 1991, I can't remember an exact date.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Captain Mentz, there 
were various events for which you applied for amnesty.  I think purely, briefly for the sake of the questions 
put to you, we have to refer to this, the event with regard to the KwaNdebele Nine, were you physically 
present when the people were shot?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: So you didn't participate or see this yourself?

CAPT MENTZ: No Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And the events at Khan House?

CAPT MENTZ: No, I did surround protection, I wasn't at the premises, I wasn't present in the house 
myself, I was not near the building.  I was told to go and look out from a certain point that people from the 
houses say in the area would approach the place when we were busy there.

ADV DU PLESSIS: You were not involved in the physical death of the people, you were not 
present there?

CAPT MENTZ: No Sir.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And with regard to the Komatipoort Four, were you present when those people 
were shot?

CAPT MENTZ: No Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Okay.  Now Captain Mentz, the only two events with regard to which you ask 
for amnesty contained in your application where you were present when the people were killed, were Brian 
Ngqulunga and the event at Pentz Mine?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: May I take you to page 108 of this compilation of documents.  108, second 
paragraph, this is 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 128

CAPT MENTZ: the application regarding Pentz Mine, I don't want to go into this in detail, I just wish you to read to the 
Committee the second paragraph on page 108 about how you felt after the person had been shot at the 
Pentz Mine event.

CAPT MENTZ: I became nauseous again Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you read to us this.

CAPT MENTZ: "While we were walking back, I became nauseous, I was walking at the back.  
Everything that had happened there, was totally unacceptable to me and I 
couldn't identify with it at all".

ADV DU PLESSIS: That is page 108.  Now Captain Mentz, in the case of this Pentz Mine incident, 
were you physically at all involved in the person's death?

CAPT MENTZ: No Mr Chairman I was in the background.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you see his death?

CAPT MENTZ: When I saw he was going to be shot, I looked away and you can see that in the rest of 
my testimony.

ADV DU PLESSIS: So you didn't see his actual death?

CAPT MENTZ: No, I didn't see anything about the explosion, I didn't touch the man, I didn't handle him 
physically.  At that stage I was just De Kock's motor car
driver, the person wasn't even in the same car with us or anything.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Okay, Captain Mentz, so the only event for which you apply for amnesty 
where you were physically involved in the death of a person, the case of Brian Ngqulunga?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: How was he physically involved - he stood there and looked, he took no part in 
the death, did he?
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 129

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek sal die vrae vrae.  Captain Mentz were those the only 
events where you were in physical contact with the person by way of the assault before he was killed?