Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: At the time of Katiza's disclosure that he would have been working with the police C R Swart did you believe this disclosure?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Well we didn't disbelieve it.

MR SEMENYA: Did you deem it expedient to divulge this information to Mrs Mandela?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Well we didn't because it was in a context where we thought that there could have been many other cases of a similar kind, but we thought that what we needed to look for was a global solution to the problem.

MR SEMENYA: Now with respect Mr Minister you are saying you formed an impression that there may be police operatives who were sowing this disunity and this disunity is causing the community crisis that is there and you now confirm that you have information that one of the boys is a police operative and you don't make this disclosure to Mrs Mandela?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Let me explain myself.  In the course of our discussions with Mrs Mandela about the entire problem of the Football club, I am going back to it for reasons which will become obvious, we did tell her there are allegations coming from various people in the community about the actions of members of the Football Club.  We did say to her we doubt if anybody could vouch for all the individuals that you have around you here.  So I am saying in the context of the earlier discussion we did advise on the basis of these suspicions that we had that perhaps her interest will be best served by her agreeing that the Football Club be dissolved.  I will come to the point I want to make about the issue of Katiza.
 We said earlier that when Katiza made this confession to us it was not the only issue that he raised with us in that sense confidentially, because he claimed that he participated himself in assaulting the other children and he claimed that the other children were assaulted.  Now we had to work out what to do with all this information that he was giving us and we didn't deem it prudent at that stage to say to Mrs Mandela this is what Katiza is saying to us, especially because we thought that we did not have the possibility to take Katiza away from the Mandela residence at the time, so we did not know what the consequences on Katiza would have been had we divulged everything that he told us in that sense in confidence.

MR SEMENYA: No maybe I couldn't follow your answer.  I am saying you have the following facts according to you, that Katiza is a police informer, that there are possibilities of a third force operating there.  He confirms that he participated in the assault himself, you now know these three facts, shouldn't prudence have dictated that you disclose these facts to Mrs Mandela as a reason why these boys must leave?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: You will appreciate also that Katiza was not the only person we were dealing with, he was one of the three children that we spoke to.  It was his word against the other two children whom he claims to have assaulted and they said to us they were not assaulted.

MR SEMENYA: But Mr Minister you are saying yourself you did not disbelieve him, so it's not a question of credibility.  He has given you a version which you have every reason to believe and this reason precipitates the environment which you are trying to dissolve, why don't you take this information and say to her Mrs Mandela precisely for this reason isn't it now convincing data to you that these people must leave the house, maybe the problem would be solved?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja again I think I must take you into the concrete situation that prevailed then.  We did not disbelieve him, Mrs Mandela herself before she allowed us access to the children she said this is my story, the children came voluntarily, they were not assaulted, they will confirm this to you.  The other two children confirmed her version, Katiza in their presence, in the presence of the other children was saying the same thing as they were saying, it was only when there was a possibility for him to discuss with us confidentially that he started to disagree with the others.  So I am saying in the circumstances that prevailed at the time in our view it would not have been prudent, that is in our view it would not have been prudent to raise the matters in the way that you suggest we should have raised with Mrs Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: Well maybe that is your final answer on that subject.  But I seem to hear you use the words with respect very gratuitously. You say now before she allowed us access, had she denied you access before?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Well we asked for access.  If you look at - I am just trying to look for the relevant annexure, annexure C page 1.  I will  just read the paragraph you will see it as I am reading it
"We approached Winnie who promised to give us access to the kids so that we could see them for ourselves.  She immediately asserted that they came to her house voluntarily because they were tired of being sodomised by the priest who was giving them sanctuary.  She promised that the kids would confirm that to us when we see them".
Then indeed she allowed us access to the children.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Minister which question are you answering?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: I am answering your question as to whether she refused us access to the children, I am saying she allowed us access to the children.

MR SEMENYA: Can I repeat the question that I put to you?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: I am saying somehow I read some gratuity in the language you use.  You say before she allowed us access, now I want to know from you did she deny you access?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: I hope we can go back to the record, I don't remember using the words before she allowed us access.  Anyway I don't want to create an impression, if I said so and the impression you gained was that she refused us access.

FRANK CHIKANE: Chairperson the reality is that we didn't make an appointment before we arrived there to say may we see the children.  You know there was no such an appointment.  We had to come in into the house and negotiate first and there was this position which said these children were sodomised and we rescued them etc, but we had to enter into a discussion to say may we talk to the children themselves, so it was a process which then led to us being able to talk to the children.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I - I mean I am not asking a question, I am not interrupting, is it a useful thing mainly for us to agree that they were not children.  I mean I think it is probably we are getting ourselves into a bit of a bind ...(intervention)

MR MOKOENA: In an African context Chairperson they were children.

CHAIRPERSON: At 29!

MR SEMENYA: Can I maybe move to another area.  According to my information Mr Mokoena there was an occasion when you went to Daliwonga School, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: That is so.

MR SEMENYA: At the time there were two young persons who were taken by the Daliwonga students, is that right?

MR MOKOENA: Students from Daliwonga?

MR SEMENYA: No I am trying to establish the reason why you had gone there, were there two children who were staying in the house of Mrs Mandela who were held by the Daliwonga students?

MR MOKOENA: I wouldn't specifically remember if there were two kids that were taken by the Daliwonga students, but I think what happened was that - our main mission there was to prevent retaliatory action from the Daliwonga students to come back to the house, that's one thing.  But then what happened when we were actually there Daliwonga students did keep some of those students there, some of the members of the Club in the place, during that time when we were there and we had to negotiate for their release.  They kind of captured them.

MR SEMENYA: It's just that it's today but the allegations of criminal conduct were on either side of the divide, if the young men at the house and the community could be put into two categories?