Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: So because they give you problems, do you think it would be much better that you get the questions direct in English and answer in Sotho because I suppose everybody here would get that translation in English.

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Because we want you, when you testify you must you know be able to have no irritation or anything that would distract your attention to what is happening in here.  Do you understand?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  May we proceed, Mr Lebea?  May we proceed?

MR LEBEA: Yes, you may proceed.

TITUS LETHOHONOLO LEBEA: (s.u.o.)

MR MBANDAZAYO: (Cont)
	Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.  Mr Lebea, when we took a break I was asking you that am I correct to say that you were visited by members of APLA whilst you were in prison?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What was their purpose of visit to you?

MR LEBEA: The reason for that was to come and see us and again to inform us about the situation which was prevailing in the country and then again for them to know exactly what happened that we ended up in prison.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, let me ask you this way.  Were there any members of APLA or PAC who were sent by Themba Ncapai to you in prison, specifically?

MR LEBEA: No, Chairperson, that - he was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, whilst you were in prison was any member of APLA sent by Themba Ncapai to come and see you whilst you were in prison?  That's the question.  Am I right Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Chairperson.

MR LEBEA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what was - what instruction was that member given to him to say to you or to do to you whilst you were in prison?

MR LEBEA: The person who came is Mr Mokweti.  He was coming to visit us all and to inform us about the situation in the country.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea the question was that I wanted somebody sent by Themba Ncapai specifically.  You said there was somebody sent by Themba Ncapai to come and see you.

MR LEBEA: I think it's Mr Mphahlele.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did he come and see you?

MR LEBEA: It happened that I met him in prison whilst he was arrested, but there was no person who came to visit us who has been instructed by Themba Ncapai because he died in 1992.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay let me pass that one.  Now let me ask you this way.  Did you write any report about the incident and give it to somebody to give it to Ncapai and try to give it to somebody to give it to Themba Ncapai about the whole incident?

MR LEBEA: Yes Chairperson.  I make a report and give it to Oupa Kgotle

CHAIRPERSON: Just a slight correction for the interpretation.  He said he wrote a report.  Did you write a report?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you give it to Oupa Kgotle?

MR LEBEA: I gave it to Oupa Kgotle after we had been arrested.  We were still on trial at the time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was Oupa Kgotle outside prison at that time?

MR LEBEA: At the time he was outside.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Chairperson.  Just one point Chairperson, I've forgotten.  Why, you kept on mentioning, you were asked the question why did other people not go and talk to Themba Ncapai and report.  You were the only person. Now why was it so specific that you are the person that should report to him, directly to Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: I was the person who was responsible about the whole operation, therefore I was supposed to report directly to him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were there no provisions that in the event that a Commander is shot dead or is injured, he could not perform his duties, somebody should take over when you are incapacitated?

MR LEBEA: There was no provision made but I think it could have been done the other way round.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, that's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Kachelhoffer, any questions ...(indistinct - mike not on)?

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just one or two aspects.

MR KACHELHOFFER: I just want to know, is it currently still the policy of Apla to attack so-called white farmers or farms?

MR LEBEA: Please repeat your question Sir.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Is it currently still the police of APLA to attack white farms?

MR LEBEA: Things have changed.  It's no more the police of the PAC to attack white farmers, white people.

MR KACHELHOFFER: What are your personal viewpoints in this regard?

MR LEBEA: Pardon?

MR KACHELHOFFER: What are your personal viewpoints in this particular regard, in other words the attacking of white farmers?

MR LEBEA: Please repeat your question or raise your voice.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may help you Mr Kachelhoffer.  Listen.  He is saying personally, in your mind, what is your belief in regard to this policy of attacking white farmers currently?

MR LEBEA: The situation we are in now does not necessitate the attack towards white people.  We are able to talk, then I would say we are liberated politically, we are able to talk other than attacking white people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Kachelhoffer on the question of amnesty and although it may be relevant in as far as other aspects are, but it wouldn't assist us in coming to a conclusion about amnesty and whether the requirements of the Act are met, what his opinion may be about attacks today or not, so I don't think it would help us in our problems.

MR KACHELHOFFER: This then also concludes my examination, thank  you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KACHELHOFFER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude Mr Titus Lebea?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, that concludes his evidence Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lebea, Titus, thank you very much.  You are excused.

MR LEBEA: Thank you Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I'm in your hands with regard to time.  I don't know when the Committee is intending to adjourn.

CHAIRPERSON: We spoke during the last adjournment and said let's go to 4.30 and see how we can go with your second applicant.  I think I don't want to be arbitrary here.  Does it suite everybody?  We'll just take another 30 minutes and see where it takes us, is that okay?   Thank you.  Apparently there's nodding in favour of my proposition and my Committee's.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson the next applicant is King Lebea.