Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MR BERGER: And you discussed that even though you had been suspended from the police you would not be allowed to attend any meetings held in the hostel.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Well let me read to you what you said.  Chairperson it's at page 3574 of the record.  You were accused no 74 were you not?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have the record?  Oh reading from the judgment.

MR BERGER: Judgment yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see, I beg your pardon.

MR PRIOR: The evidence at the trial, of the accused's evidence when he testified, not from the judgment.  Mr Chairman, when the bundle was prepared, I understand only the judgment was put up and not the thousands of pages of the record.

MR BERGER: That's correct, but I'll read the relevant portion into the record anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just give me the page.

MR BERGER: It's page 3574 Chairperson.
	Starting at line 17 - well if I can just a little bit higher, you were asked whether - you said that in the beginning of 1991 you went to go and stay in the hostel, and you said that in the hostel, it was you, your mother and your two younger brothers.  Do you remember that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: You were then asked,
"Was u op daardie stadium nog 'n lid van die Mag gewees?"
You said yes, you were still a member of the Force.
You were asked:
"Where you in full-time service or were you ..."
the Afrikaans word is "geskors".
" ... and I understand that to be suspended"  
You said:  
"Ek was geskors"
Is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't remember whether I said that.  It might as well be that you are correct I said that, and I may not deny it as well, even though I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Tshabangu, the purpose of this exercise is just to remind you that this is what you said.  So all that counsel wants to find out, is whether - did you in fact say what appears at page 3574 of the record.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I do understand.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu just to assist you, you can accept that what is here is in fact a recording of what you said, this is part of the appeal record for purposes of your appeal to the Supreme Court of Appeal in Bloemfontein.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes I accept that.

MR BERGER: Now at line 17 you were asked
"Met u aankoms daar by die hostel, het u enige reelings met beskuldigde 73 ...",
that's Mr Moses Mthembu.
"... getref betreffende oor vergaderings en diesmeer wat daar in die hostel gehou word?"
Your answer was:  
"Na my aankoms daar het ek en meneer Moses Mthembu, beskuldigde 73, gaan sit en ons het gesels oor myself.  Ons het ook gesels oor my verblyf daar, en ook die feit dat ek nog 'n lid is van die Polisie.  Al is ek geskors mag ek nie enige vergaderings bywoon wat daar gehou mag word nie.  Ek kan net noem dat hy het daarop aangedring dat sonder enige rede om die vergadering by te woon nie."
I - that is as it's been typed, and I think there's a word or two out there.  What you were saying is, Mr Moses Mthembu said to you, even though you are suspended, you are still a member of the Force and for no reason are you allowed to attend meetings in the hostel.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It was myself who indicated that I am not supposed to attend meetings, it was not Mthembu who suggested that I should not attend meetings.  Yes, I concur with what you've just read.

MR BERGER: And why were you not supposed to attend meetings?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That was a policy that was used by the Police Force at the time.

MR BERGER: Because you were still regarded as a member of the South African Police?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You still had your official firearm issued by the police, correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: Even though you were not supposed to attend meetings you did in fact attend meetings, did you not?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Why did you complain to Mr Mkhize in the stadium at either the meeting three weeks before or the meeting one week before about what was happening, why did you choose Mkhize?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I was confined, I was not used to living under such conditions, it was difficult.  Things that were happening to me and other people with whom I was staying there, these things happened over and over and over, and these things registered in my heart.  And I realised that it was about time I became one of them by all means, that is why I was attending the meetings.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu proceedings would go a lot faster if you listened to my question and answered my question.  My question was not why did you complain, my question was why did you choose Mkhize to complain to.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: He was the one chairing the meeting, in other words, he was playing a leadership role at the time, he was with Damarra.

MR BERGER: And what leadership role was he playing, what position did he occupy at that time in the hostel?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Insofar as structures are concerned, I was not clear as to who was occupying what position.  I only saw people in leadership roles, I did not question as to who occupying what position.  But the fact is that Mkhize was one of the leaders, himself and Damarra at the Madala hostel at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Accepting that probably at the time when you arrived at the hostel, you may not have known what positions Mkhize and Damarra had, did you subsequently establish what their positions were?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No I had not established that when I left, I didn't know.  I just saw the leaders, I knew them as leaders because they were always taking the front seat when meetings were held where people were addressed, and I didn't know who was Chairman of what commission.  I subsequently left the place not knowing who was occupying what position.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize says in his amnesty application that he was the leader of the Amabuto, which he classifies as a specific structure within the kwaMadala Hostel.  Now surely you would have heard about this?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I do not deny that, I do not accept it either.  What I know is that Mkhize was a leader.  Whether he was a leader of Amabuto or not, I don't know.  Yes, I agree that he was one of the leaders.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu you come across as a highly intelligent man.  Are you telling the Committee that you lived with the men of kwaMadala for more than a year and you did not know what Mr Mkhize's position within the hostel was?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: With all due respect Adv Berger, believe it or not, yes, that's how it is.

MR BERGER: Well let me ask you about Mr Damarra Chonco.  Mr Victor Mthembu, himself a leader within the hostel says at page 5, paragraph 6, that Damarra Chonco was the leader of the hit-squads from Umsinge.  He was the leader of the hit-squad in the kwaMadala Hostel as well.  Did you know that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No, I was not aware of the hit-squads existing at the hostel, the hit-squads themselves having come from Umsinge.  I had no knowledge of this.

MR BERGER: The ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Give ...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: Chairperson it's - no, no I'm not going onto a new point yet, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: Given the circumstances under which the residents of the kwaMadala Hostel were living, that of constant fear of being attacked, they could not go out without risking their lives, we understand that there were women and there were probably children also within the hostel.  To your knowledge, were their any steps taken to provide protection to the residents of the hostel?  Was there a committee or a group of men - or a group of persons who were in charge of security to ensure the safety of the residents?