Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Okay.  Now that we know you can explain it, can we talk about your brother.  I understand that he was a member of the Football Club.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: And he was even sent to school by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that right?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: When?

MR SEMENYA: Was your brother at school whilst a member of the football team?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Could you repeat the question?

MR SEMENYA: Was your brother attending school while he was a member of the football team?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, he was.

MR SEMENYA: Have you got information to gainsay the fact that he was paid for, that schooling, by Mrs Mandela?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Thole was paid for by the Welfare as well as my mother.

MR SEMENYA: Clearly you are upset by the death of your brother, is that fair to say?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know that he was killed by Sizwe, is that right?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: And you had known Sizwe's relationship to Zinzi, is that right?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, I knew.

MR SEMENYA: I want to suggest to you, Ma'am, with respect, that the reason you fabricate the assault is because of the death of your brother that was occasioned by Sizwe.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I was assaulted, and my assault doesn't have anything to do with Thole's death.

MR SEMENYA: .... assaulted at the instruction of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela or in her presence?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Mrs Mandela was present.  I have absolutely no reason to come here and sit and just waffle.

MR SEMENYA: ....you mention this story.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Who?

MR SEMENYA: Official structure.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I have said that to the TRC.

MR SEMENYA: Is this the first time you tell an official structure about this assault?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Was it this year?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, this year.

MR SEMENYA: Who had approached you?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: (not translated)

MR SEMENYA: How did it come that you went to the TRC to tell the story?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I was called.

MR SEMENYA: (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: ... You are not doing what I had thought.  You see the Act says you have the right of limited cross-examination which is to establish a fact, to contest a fact.  What you are about, I mean, is following the traditions of courts and moving a very long way away from assisting us to arrive at what might in fact be on, the balance of probability, the truth.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, let me apologise, Chairperson, for doing what mild advice told me not to.  The difficulty we have is, despite repeated requests to be afforded with statement of these witnesses, we could have verified all of this information long in advance.  We were not given the statements.  The abridged summaries were only given to us on Saturday, and it makes it very difficult to test the correctness of the version which is being said other than understanding the motive that explains it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Can you explain why, if that is the case, why the relevant documents were not made available?

MR VALLY: I have been advised that the full statement that we have been relying was in fact given, with the exception of addresses, to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's legal team.  We have removed the addresses but otherwise the same details are there.

CHAIRPERSON: The statement, you have heard for yourself, I shouldn't repeat, you have got the statement with the address elided. And now you have to say whether you have or haven't?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I can give it to yourself.  I have a translation here that was given to us on Saturday past.  It does not even tell me when these statements were made, before whom they were made, and I can't even verify any of the things that are said here.  I also have a set of statements from the TRC which say conflicting versions because of these summaries.  I am unable to deal with these things.  That's the difficulty I have.

CHAIRPERSON: What I think we should do is again, I mean all I think you should be doing, given the limitations under which you are operating apparently, is to say my client contests this particular fact and this and this and this in the witness's statement, which has already been presented to you in verbal testimony.  I think that is what you should be doing, please.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I would request in the fullness of time to have a statement of this particular witness.  For now, Ma'am, you say the perception is that the Mandela Football Club was looked in bad light?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, when they started, this Mandela Football Club, everybody admired them and I even went to watch their football matches, but after quite some time they conducted a reign of terror, burning people's houses and killing people. That's what changed my perception about them.

MR SEMENYA: You say your brother was burning houses and killing people?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I never used to go out with him, I don't know what he used to do.

MR SEMENYA: ... the Football Club were burning the houses and killing people.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I do not know their names.

MR SEMENYA: Which killing did you personally witness by the Mandela Football Club?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: They assaulted me personally.

MR SEMENYA: Which killing did you personally witness?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I am not going to answer that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Are there any questions from the panel here?  Hlengiwe.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you. Phumlile, I just have one question in your statement on page 25.  Actually I don't have one, sorry Chairperson, I have three brief ones.  Where you say soon after Winnie's house in Orlando was burnt, then you go on to say Winnie and Shakes came to see your parents and Shakes came in first and briefed you that Winnie had sent for your brother but that she was really after you.  It's like the statement leading to a beating.  Can you just clarify to us what is the link between that visit and the burning of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?  It's like there are two - I should think for the record's sake it's important for you to clarify what exactly were the circumstances, because it's like you linked it with the burning of the house, and also Shakes whispered to you that they haven't come for your brother but Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was after you, can you just clarify that?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: The burning of the house is a separate incident and the assault is another incident.  When Shakes came to my place he went in first and he told me that they had come to see me but Winnie was going to pretend as if she was looking for Thole, and I told him to tell Mandela that Thole was not in there and Shakes went back to speak to Winnie Mandela, and he came back and said Winnie had instructed me to come and show them the hall where Thole was.  That's when I went into Mrs Mandela's car and Winnie said, "Shakes, drive, we are going to my place, we are no longer going to the hall", and as the house had been burnt, that has got nothing to do with the assault.

MS MKHIZE: Something which you mentioned that Dudu Pili promised you that she will report this matter to the Women's League. Was the matter - your human rights violation ever reported as promised?  Did the Women's League do anything about it?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: She went to report, as far as I know.

MS MKHIZE: ... a recorded matter which was discussed.  A fellow Commissioner is saying maybe I should just say to you, do you know that it was reported as she promised?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: She gave me a report-back that she reported the matter and we never followed it up.