Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-07

FUNDISILE GULENI: Our belief was that ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: No, not what your belief was, did you ask her?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We did not ask her.

ADV DE JAGER: Now why if you want to find out whether this would be a suitable target, why didn't you ask her?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We couldn't have enough time to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was this child?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I think she was about nine or ten.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can you just explain something here?  You say that you wanted to make sure that you did not hit an unsuitable target.  What did you mean by that, who would have been an unsuitable target in that situation?

FUNDISILE GULENI: To us it would not be sensible to hit a child, to hit a grandmother, we thought the suitable target would be the people or the white men that would be found at that time at that area.

MR SMUTS: Mr Guleni, from the response that you got from the child it was apparent that the people who were there were not local residents, they had come from some distance away.  Is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: You knew it was a holiday season, correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: Having now been advised that the people who were living there had come from some distance away during a holiday season, what effort did you make to establish that notwithstanding that information, they still fitted within your target group?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Sir, I want to make this clear that we couldn't make any efforts to find out whether people are there on holiday purposes or not, we have been informed that this area is used by the right-wingers so it will suffice to get information saying that people, I mean it will suffice if we got the information that there are white people who are in that area.  Then we believed that if there are, well those will be falling into the people we were looking at.

MR SMUTS: Let's test that.  You had also been told that Port St Johns was being used for right-wing activity, not so?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is so.

MR SMUTS: Would any white person in Port St Johns accordingly have been an appropriate target?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Not any white person but those whom we knew or we suspected to be members and those whom we suspected to be having something to do with those we suspected to be members of AWB.

MR SMUTS: Well if that's the case then why would any white person at a particular resort 40 kilometres away be an appropriate target?

CHAIRPERSON: He had information rightly or wrongly that that's where they gathered.

MR SMUTS: Yes, Mr Chairman, he had information that they gathered in Port St Johns, but in Port St Johns not every white person was a suitable target and the question is why would every person at Mpandi then be a suitable target?

FUNDISILE GULENI: It is because Mpandi was believed to be an area where it is an area outside town where these people used to hold meetings.  That's how we believed.  Like if we found a group of white men at Mpandi we would regard them as the target we need.

ADV DE JAGER: If it was a single family staying there, would you believe they've come from somewhere to hold a meeting there between themselves?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That what depend at that time at the nature of the grouping.

MR SMUTS: What made the particular grouping that you had selected for attack appropriate for such attack?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Let me put it this way.  If we found a grouping where there are also children and appears to be a family, well we couldn't have attacked those people.  We could believe, I mean if a grouping was reflecting people who are holding meeting, we could easily see that these people are holding meeting.  That was one of the purposes we went to inspect the area first.

MR SMUTS: Weren't you told by the child to whom you spoke that she was there with her family, with her parents?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Come again?

MR SMUTS: Weren't you told by the child to whom you spoke that she was there in the family grouping with her parents?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I don't understand your question.

MR SMUTS: Were you or were you not told by the child to whom you spoke that she was there at Mpandi with her parents?

FUNDISILE GULENI: The child was not with her parents at that time, she was alone outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told, did she tell you that she was there holidaying there with her parents?

FUNDISILE GULENI: She didn't specify that they are there on holiday but she indicated that they are not staying there, they are from somewhere else.

MR SMUTS: And she told you that she was there with her mother and her father?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: She didn't tell you that they were there holding meetings?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: But you thought that the people who had left from there to go fishing were a suitable target notwithstanding that information which the child had given you?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Ja if I may make it clear, the reason why we decided to have a group of people who are going to give signal when they believe that is a suitable target it's because we were avoiding the situation where it would hit people who appear not to fall under the category of the target we needed.

MR SMUTS: We'll get to that.  In your application on the typed page 6, five lines from the bottom, there is a sentence which to be fair to you may be improperly punctuated, but it reads
"Although we had intention of gunning down any white along the coast provided we had reasonable suspicion that they could be those who are behind violence"
it probably was mean to read on:
"we could not hurt kids"
as one sentence.  Was it a prerequisite before you went over to attacking any particular victim that you should have a reasonable suspicion that they could be those who are behind violence?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes it was a prerequisite.

MR SMUTS: What gave rise to the reasonable suspicion that three fishermen and two children in a 4x4 vehicle could be those who were behind violence?

FUNDISILE GULENI: It's because they were alleged to be staying in that area which we believe is an area where the missions are carried on.

MR SMUTS: The missions are carried on?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Or the meetings for the right-wingers are held, let me put it that way.

MR SMUTS: In other words, any white person found along that coast was a target?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I don't understand you when you say any white person because I've already mentioned that we would regard any person found there but with the exception of a few like children and grandmothers.  We would avoid a situation if we happened to see that these people or the people we come across include all those I've mentioned such as ..[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: In fact you shot at a vehicle with children in so you ignored that prerequisite.  Factually you ignored it because there were two children in the vehicle.

FUNDISILE GULENI: Unfortunately, we couldn't see that there were children in the vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.  Mr Smuts, I don't think you - it would serve really any purpose of continuing, I think it's clear that they shot at people, at a motor vehicle where children were in, they didn't ascertain beforehand whether they were AWB's or not.

MR SMUTS: Yes Mr Chairman.
	Mr Guleni, your evidence was that you were seeking to advance the interests of the African National Congress, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: You were aware that the African National Congress had committed itself to a non-violent approach, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: Were you aware that prior to the shooting on the 13th April 1993 of any change in that expressed policy of the African National Congress?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No.

MR SMUTS: Were you aware of the opposition of the African National Congress to racism?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes I was.