Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-02

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes but they did not, they met the police by coincidence, they did not plan to go to those police.

CHAIRPERSON: What about unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition there?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, I was still coming to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: That is all as far as this applicant is concerned Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, there are a few questions that I've got.
	Mr Mamani, are you Mamani or Memani, your surname?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Mamani.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: M-A.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, M-A-M-A-N-I.
	When you went for the shootings, I mean for the operations in the Eastern Cape, where were you based?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We did not have a permanent place to stay.  I once stayed at Forte, I once stayed at Mdantsane, it was Forte and Mdantsane but I did not have a stable place of residence because we did not want to be traced.

MR MAPOMA: I see.  So you were not subjected to the command structures of the MK in any particular region as such, is that what you're saying?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: That is not what I'm trying to say.  We did not have a place, a permanent place to stay for security reasons because we could only trust ourselves only because we knew that it was easy for a person who was not involved in the mission to turn against us.

MR MAPOMA: Let me put my question like this, you will remember that in the country the command structures inside the country of MK, there were command structures of the MK in the Eastern Cape, in the Ciskei, I mean border area then, in the Transkei area then, Western Cape and so on.  What I want to find out is which command structures were you reporting to as MK operatives then?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We would act per instruction from Chris Hani as the chief of staff, like we always tried to avoid to mix with the other structures because of financial problems so we did not want to involve ourselves in those structures, we had to be involved with our missions and complete them and go back to Cape Town and when we arrived in Cape Town we were summoned by the provisional command in Cape Town and he demanded the report and I made that report.

MR MAPOMA: Why was it the Cape Town command that demanded a report from you when the operation was in the Eastern Cape and in fact when you operated you were based in - you were coming from the Eastern Cape to operate.  You did not leave from Cape Town to come and operate here.  You were here and operated here and then ran to Cape Town and why was the report asked by the Western Cape command of the MK?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The comrades called me for the reasons not known to me, I don't know what was on their minds at the time, they called me and they wanted to know what had happened on the mission and I told them and all I knew was that one of them was in the command structure of the province, the Western Cape Province, at the time.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) for Frankfort?

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: When those firearms were taken from the police station at Frankfort, to whom was it intended that those firearms would be handed to?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The aim was that us as the unit, we were supposed to take the firearms and train the people in Cape Town and ensure the protection of the unit with these same firearms.  The people who were involved in the mission at Frankfort Police Station.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I am going to repeat this, Comrade Chris Hani said to us we should defend the people, try and acquire firearms to be able to protect the people, that is what we did.  We couldn't take the firearms and give them to the other structures because there were other structures that were existing already but our mission was to train and defend the people in that particular community.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, I'm asking you a simple question, you don't seem to understand it or you're not answering it properly.  How did you know you must take firearms to Cape Town?  You say you were supposed to hand those firearms back in Cape Town?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We were told by Comrade Chris Hani to get firearms and take them with to Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, you were supposed to rob the Frankfort Police Station of firearms and take them to Cape Town, was that your order?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The order did not specify a place but we were told to get firearms and protect the people.

CHAIRPERSON: No but Mr Mamani, and I'm not trying to catch you out but something concerns me.  When you first started to testify you told us that the Frankfort Police Station was reconnoitred and you people went to Chris Hani and told him this is the plan and he approved of it and that's what you needed and you proceeded to rob the police station of it's firearms or some of it's firearms, is that not true?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I cannot say that is not true but the judge misunderstood me, we did not first reconnoitre the place and went back to Chris Hani, we first got the instructions from Chris Hani to get firearms and defend the people and we decided that our easy targets would be the homelands, the homeland that we targeted was Ciskei as the structure what we decided upon but Chris Hani was not part of that decision, he did not tell us to go to Ciskei or go to a specific place but we sat down and planned and we talked more about our security and we had to select the places, we would ensure that our missions ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You never got a specific order with regard to Frankfort Police Station from Chris Hani?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: No, we did not get a specific order but we are the people who selected the place, the reconnaissance is that we went there to that rural area as if we're going to Nomabise's place and we knew very well that we wanted to looked around this place because Nomabise told us that there was a police station in his neighbourhood.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where were you stationed in South Africa before this incident?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Before this incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes before the incident.

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was residing in Cape Town, Number 465, Dunn Street, New Cross-roads.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before this incident at Frankfort did you come to the Eastern Cape?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: When it was hardly a week here in the Eastern Cape.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where was Chris Hani at that time?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Chris Hani was with us in Cape Town before coming to the Eastern Cape.  The instruction was issued by Chris Hani while we were still in Cape Town with him.  We are the people who decided upon Ciskei as our target.

CHAIRPERSON: So you left Chris Hani there in Cape Town and came to commit this robbery?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Chris issued this instruction as he was a person who was travelling around to all the provinces with other missions of the ANC and he told us about this and after that he left for other places.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about 1992?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes I'm talking about 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: But weren't you attached to the personal security system of Chris Hani?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: As I did explain before I was working for the security of the African National Congress, the department of intelligence and security and we were also involved in body guarding.  He was my principal at the time when he was issuing the instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Now is it your evidence that Chris Hani gave you direct instructions to this effect?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR MAPOMA: Is it your evidence that Chris Hani spoke to you directly instructing you that you must get the firearms?