Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-08

MR PENI: Aslogan contributes to the policy of the organisation. A slogan is aligned tothe policy of the organisation. The policy was the African land was left throughstruggles and it will come back through struggles. The slogans were supportingthe policy.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In that context you would then say that - where would you put One Settler,one bullet?

MR PENI: ThePAC policy is that they would bring back the land through the struggle.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: My question was whether this was policy or slogan?

MR PENI: Thepolicy gives birth to the slogan, therefore the slogan is aligned to the policy.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No I wanted to know whether, "One Settler, one bullet", is policyor slogan?

MR PENI: Itis a slogan.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse any re-examination?

RE-BY ADV ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chair. Ntombeko you were a member of the PACand you were a member of PASO. PASO is part of the PAC, is that correct?

MR PENI: That'scorrect.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do the PAC and PASO have the same policy? Do they sometimes differ on mattersof policy?

MR PENI: Thepolicies of PASO are taken from that of the PAC, there are just minor differencesbecause we were students.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The slogan One Settler, one bullet was that an APLA slogan orwas it the PAC slogan?

MR PENI: Itwas a PAC slogan.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Your alliance with COSAS was that alliance following a meeting that you hadwith COSAS or did you as an organisation, PASO, decide to support COSAS andto put into operation Operation Barcelona?

MR PENI: Wegave support because we had a problem and COSAS had adopted a programme of OperationBarcelona.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The question was did you have a meeting, physical meeting with COSAS, or didyou as an organisation decide on your own to support COSAS in what they weregoing to do?

MR PENI: Wedecided on our own because it was our own problem anyway.

NORMAN ARENDSE: It was put to you without any, if I may say so, without any facts being putto you, but it was put to you nevertheless that COSAS had White members andof course so had the ANC, did you actually see or know any White persons whowere members of COSAS or the ANC?

MR PENI: PersonallyI did not know of anybody.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now your evidence is that you were on a bakkie and you jumped off the bakkieand you pursued Amy and you then described what you did. Now it was put to youhypothetically that if this were Joe Slovo what would you have done then. NowI want to ask you, in the highly unlikely event that the late Mr Slovo wouldhave gone there without any bodyguards and without - and he would have beenin the car with the three passengers as Amy was, would you have known that itwas him, someone stumbling across the road, blood streaming from the head orthe face, would you have known it was Joe Slovo?

MR PENI: Iwould not have known that it was Joe Slovo.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Arendse his evidence was that he didn't know Joe Slovo by sight, that's hisevidence.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Ms Khampepe I understood that they knew him from his standing and photographspresumably.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That is not how I understood his evidence. I thought he said he didn't knowhim by sight. He knew about him but not that he knew him by sight. He had notseen him face-to-face, that's how I recollect his evidence.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I accept the bit about not seeing him face-to-face, but I understood - but perhapsif we can clear this up, can I ask Mr Peni?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Ntombeko if you had seen - had you seen Joe Slovo beforethe 25th of August 1993?

MR PENI: Isaid I read about him in the newspapers before I saw him with my own eyes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Had you seen a photograph of him?

MR PENI: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So if he appeared in front of you you would have known that it was Joe Slovo?

MR PENI: Itwould depend what angle I would be seeing him at.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now just to go back to what I was asking of you, you had jumped off the bakkieand had seen a White woman who turned out to be Amy Biehl, you had seen thisWhite woman run across the street, now if it had been Joe Slovo running acrossthe street with blood streaming from his head or down his face would you havetaken the trouble to see whether it was Joe Slovo or whether it was some otherWhite male?

MR PENI: Iwould not have taken part.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I don't understand your answer. You would not have taken part if you had seenit was Joe Slovo, or you would not have taken part if you had seen it was someother White male?

MR PENI: Pleaserepeat the question.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry can I interrupt if you do not mind and just put the question to the witness.The question is, suppose that particular afternoon and under those specificcircumstances where somebody had - where you had jumped out of the bakkie andyou saw somebody running in the manner in which the deceased was doing withblood in the face, suppose that person had been Joe Slovo would you have recognisedhim as Joe Slovo?

MR PENI: Itwould depend, but if I had recognised him....

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well we are asking you, I don't know what you mean you when you depend, I don'tknow on what it would depend but I have put you back to the 25th of August 19whatever, and I am asking you, I am putting hypothetically Mr, the late Mr Slovoin precisely the position in which the deceased in the matter was, the questionis, would you have been able to recognise him if it had been Joe Slovo?

MR PENI: Ifhe was running in the same way that Amy had been running I would not have recognisedhim. I would not have seen that it was Mr Slovo.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I am indebted to Justice Ngoepe for clearing that up.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONSBY ADV ARENDSE

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Brink if I may ask you, did any of the applicants give evidence in mitigationand is it possible for us to have a copy thereof?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I will endeavour to get that. All I do have is the judgment on the merits. Yousee Mr Peni was tried separately from the other three applicants and in yourpapers, in your bundle you've got a judgment relating to the three applicants,excluding the first applicant Peni.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But we are singularly missing the record relating to, if there was any evidence,in mitigation, but maybe you can take it up with your colleagues, we would dearlylike to have copies of the record relating to the evidence if there was any,which was given in mitigation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse do you know anything about it, or Ms Gozo?

ADV GOZO COMMITTEE: I was representing the accused in the trial and the accused put on aspects relatingto their ages and their personal circumstances in mitigation.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all that was led?

ADV GOZO COMMITTEE: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman if I might just add that obviously at the trial, or maybe it's notso obvious, but their defence was that they had alibis and they were not - theydidn't place themselves on the scene, so if the Committee is looking for anythingthat they may have said about what happened and so on, and about the policyand slogans etc I am afraid we did ask about that and it's not available.

CHAIRPERSON: So I understand that the situation at that stage in the trial was consistentwith the attitude that they had adopted as far as their defence was concerned?

NORMAN ARENDSE: That would be correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So no evidence, extraneous evidence about their frame of mind or what ledthem to do what they did, that evidence was not placed before the court as partof extenuating circumstances?

NORMAN ARENDSE: That would be correct Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Arendse the Operation Storm or even Barcelona, you are not in possessionof any official documents of the party stating what Operation Storm in factwas about?