Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

MR NEL: Thank you sir.  Mr Cuba, according to this explosives expert he says that
"The person who fiddled or detonated this device would have had to remove the dust cover that covers the detonator in the bus because that cover was still found in the bag on the scene."
Now your evidence is that you know nothing about this limpet in the bag and you also did not see Mr, if it was him, the deceased Mr Namba, fiddling with the device?

XOLANI CUBA: May I please just rectify you?  I never saw him because I did not pay any attention or take any notice of what he was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying Mr Cuba that he may have fiddled with the limpet mine but you just didn't see it?

XOLANI CUBA: I would not deny that, he might have fiddled or interfered with it.

MR NEL: You sat right next to Mr Namba on the back seat of the bus?

XOLANI CUBA: That is correct.

MR NEL: Do you recall him talking to a young white lady who also got on the bus and went to sit on the same seat and you and Mr Namba?

XOLANI CUBA: I do not remember.

MR NEL: ...[inaudible] indicates on paragraph 3 of her statement
"Die een wat agter gesit het, het my gevloek.  Hy het vir my gese: 'go fucking sit in front'."
Do you know anything about that?

XOLANI CUBA: I know nothing of the sort.

MR NEL: Well whoever said that saved Miss Meyer's life because on account of that she did go to the front of the bus and was only partially injured in the accident.

XOLANI CUBA: ...[inaudible]

MR NEL: What I'm trying to say, Mr Cuba, is that we can most probably believe her statement when she says that because on account of those words uttered by either you or the deceased, she left the back seat and went to the front and if it had not been for those words, she would most probably have been also critically injured today or dead.  You know nothing about those words being uttered?

XOLANI CUBA: I've got absolutely no clue.

MR NEL: Now you did not make a statement but also you relied on the statement of your colleague, Mr Seyisi, but your statement if I refer you to paragraph 10 on page 4 of the bundle, when we get the question
"State political objective sought to be achieved."
There is a one sentence answer there:
"To overthrow the white regime"
Now firstly, you were not a member of APLA?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes I was not.

MR NEL: Were you a member of any organisation however small?

XOLANI CUBA: I was a member of PASO.

MR NEL: Was it at any stage the policy of PASO, being a student organisation to overthrow the white regime?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes, all the efforts of PASO or the structures that were under the PAC worked hand in hand with the PAC, that is to overthrow the government.  If you still remember, that was the time where the PAC was highly active in politics and they were trying to overthrow the past regime and that is the time where PASO also had some slogans, they say PASO by day and APLA by night.  It indicated how they worked hand in hand with APLA.

MR NEL: In conclusion, Mr Cuba, we have a detailed explanation by, I take it, the next applicant of where the order or instruction rather, to carry out this mission came from and more or less how it was to be done.  Did you ever discuss this matter with your colleague Mr Mgengo?

XOLANI CUBA: No, we never talked.

MR NEL: Did you know that Mr Mgengo was supposed to be your mainline organiser logistically wise and financially wise in carrying out this mission?

XOLANI CUBA: No, I'm not aware of that.

MR NEL: Did Mr Mgengo ever discuss this matter with you?

XOLANI CUBA: No he never did.

MR NEL: Was Mr Mgengo in Durban at the time of this incident?

XOLANI CUBA: Which time are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the incident at November 1993.

XOLANI CUBA: No, he had gone to his place.

MR NEL: Where was his place?

XOLANI CUBA: Umtata.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Nel, just to interrupt, is it correct that you and Mr Seyisi and Mr Mgengo were all students at the M.L. Salton College?

XOLANI CUBA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it that time of the year when the academic activities at the college were coming to an end?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes that is correct, we had just written our final exams.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	I take it that Mr Mgengo was a trained member of APLA?

XOLANI CUBA: I wouldn't know because I met him in school and he was a member of PASO at that time.

MR NEL: And lastly, you say before Mr Mgengo went back to Umtata, before the 30th November 1993, he never discussed this matter regarding the limpet, regarding the mission with you?

XOLANI CUBA: That is correct, he last introduced Vuyani to us.

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Mr Cuba, is it correct that PASA and APLA were official structures under PAC?

XOLANI CUBA: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will it be further correct that operations of PASO and those of APLA differed, that is their activities?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes I do agree.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will you further agree with me then that it is APLA, that is recognised by PAC to carry out operations like planting of limpet mines, attacks and the rest, that is within their powers, is that correct?

XOLANI CUBA: Yes that is correct, that was so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And further that PASO did not have the power or did not have the jurisdiction of planting limpet bombs making attacks and the like because this was a student organisation?

XOLANI CUBA: That is so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Wouldn't you agree with me therefore that any political justification that can be advanced by APLA cannot be advanced by PASO because the modus operandi differed?

XOLANI CUBA: The PAC structures work hand in hand in whatever operation that they undertake.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes but I'm saying a political objective that may be advanced by APLA for it's physical operations, planting of bombs and other things cannot be advanced as well by PASO because it was not in the jurisdiction of PASO to do those things?

XOLANI CUBA: I do agree with you on that point.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Therefore the political objective that's going to be advanced here, if it will be, by an APLA member cannot be applicable to a PASO member, will I be right?

XOLANI CUBA: I will not agree with you on that aspect because I don't understand your statement but what I want to say is as members of PASO, we were PASO way back then but what we wanted to do was to ensure that we work with structures that fell under the PAC in order to render this country ungovernable.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Cuba, I'm not arguing with you as far as that is concerned, I know you two help one another but the physical activities were carried by different organisations?

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is quite legalistic, it might be a matter that should be rather raised in argument.  You can ask him, I'm not preventing you asking him but it seems to be quite legalistic.  I mean if you were an ordinary member of a political party assisting a trained cadre, then because he's not a trained cadre and not a member of the military wing himself is getting quite legalistic to separate his motivation from the person who he is assisting merely because of his belonging to another structure within the main liberation movement.  It's getting very legalistic but I understand the thrust of your argument but it's quite legalistic.

MR LAX: Mr Mpshe, is it not common cause that they went along to help this guy although how that was going to happen they may not have known at the time but they in essence associated themselves with his activities and isn't that really the sort of gist of the matter?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, but making use of the word associated themselves, I'll rest my matter.  No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE