Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-06-01

MR GERBER: Each one of the investigators,  even the two black investigating officers took part in the torture.  They helped us to suspend Samuel from the tree.  One or two people would not have been able to do that.  They helped us  to do that.  That afternoon when Oosthuizen fired the shot  they were present, but we did not shoot to kill him.  Oosthuizen's defence was that he wanted to frighten him and that was the only time when a shot was fired with the two black investigating officers being present.

UNKNOWN: But everything done by these two colleagues was done as a result of your instructions.

MR GERBER: Yes, and it was not the first time that they had been involved in this type of questioning and interrogation.

UNKNOWN: The report that Samuel was missing.   You testified that it was reported the next day that Samuel was missing.   Who made this report?

MR GERBER: I reported this to his branch manager.
(GAP IN RECORDING IN SWITCH-OVER TO SECOND SIDE OF TAPE NO 1)

MNR GERBER: Ek neem aan, ons sou dit gedoen het, hom af te haal om weer met hom te praat.  So hy kon seker een of twee keer afgehaal gewees het vir 'n kort rukkie en dan weer opgehang.  Dis moontlik dat hy een of twee keer afgehaal kon gewees het;  ek kan nie presies onthou nie.

UNKNOWN: Het hy nie op 'n sekere stadium van die boom afgeval en hy was toe weer opgehang deur uself en Van Eck?

MNR GERBER: Nee, baie beslis nie.   Baie beslis nie.

UNKNOWN: En u sal seker sulke getuienis betwis indien dit ... (tussenbeide).

MNR GERBER: Dat hy afgeval het?

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

MNR GERBER: Nee, U Edele.  Hy kon vir hom ernstig beseer het as hy afgeval het, want hy sou direk op sy kop geval het.  En sy hande was agter sy rug vasgeboei. So hy sou direk op sy kop geval het as hy sou afgeval het.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am sorry, Mr Mpshe, I think we don't have this letter in our papers, and I think it must be properly  received.  I think you must properly put  it on record and if you want it to form part of the documentation before us you must hand it up as an exhibit.

UNKNOWN: I am indebted to you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  This will go in as EXHIBIT A.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Gerber, did you know this Mr McFarlane, the gentleman who is supposed to have signed this letter?

MNR GERBER: Dit is korrek, Agbare.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is that his signature there at the bottom of that letter?

MNR GERBER: Dit is sy handtekening.  Ek het direk aan hom gerapporteer.  Ek het direk aan hom gerapporteer.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think let's have this letter on record, just in case it gets misplaced somehow.  Let us put it on record.  Can you read what is in there?  Just read the letter into the record.

MNR GERBER: Moet ek hom lees?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, please.

MNR GERBER: "Dear Mrs Fourie".  This was addressed to Mrs E Fourie, Transport Workers' Union of South Africa, PO Box Braamfontein 2017, date 7 November 1989.
"Dear Mrs Fourie,
		Re SECURITY DEPARTMENT
		I refer you to your letter dated 8th November 1989 addressed to Mr A THOMAS and also to your discussions with Mrs Marais and Fourie on Monday the 8th November.  I hereby confirm the terms of agreement reached at the meeting in respect of the Fidelity Guards Security Department viz:
1.	That all future investigations which involve the questioning of employees will be confined to a preliminary investigation stage whereafter the matter will be referred to the South African Police for further action.  That the questioning of employees during the preliminary investigation stage will be conducted in the presence of either a shop steward or a co-employee.  That all such preliminary investigations will be conducted in a question format and at no stage will any form of illegal violence be used or permitted.  That, as far as is reasonable possible such preliminary investigations will be held within normal working hours.
		Signed C F McFarlane, Managing Director".

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.  How far off the ground did the deceased hang?

MNR GERBER: About a metre.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And for how long did he remain hanging?  How many minutes or how many hours?

MNR GERBER: U Edele, ons het seker omtrent van halfelf, kwart oor tien, halfelf, tot vyfuur, kwart oor vyf die middag.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: During the night when this robbery took place at Hillbrow, how many members of the staff were at work?  Do you know?

MNR GERBER: Nee, ek is nie seker nie, U Edele.  Ek is nie seker nie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How many people worked for Fidelity Guards, Hillbrow Branch then?

MNR GERBER: Seker omtrent 200.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And the deceased, the suspicion fell only
onto the deceased and no one else, among the 200?

MNR GERBER: During the night of the robbery?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In connection with this robbery.

MNR GERBER: Die oorledene was gesien, hy was nie direk die aand op diens nie, maar hy was gesien waar hy met een van die wagte onder in die kelder gepraat het, en dit het op 'n latere stadium met inligting wat ons gekry het, hom verbind dat hy moontlik 'n aandeel kon gehad het om toegang te gee tot hierdie vermeende rowers binne-in die gebou.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did the police, be it Brixton or whatever police station, on any other occasion protect you in the manner that you thought they would protect you with regard to the deceased with his injuries?

MNR GERBER: Brixton gebruik dieselfde taktiek as wat ek gebruik het, en hulle sou my seker beskerm het.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But did they do it in the past?  That is what I was trying to find out from you.

MNR GERBER: O ja, hulle het al, maar nie met ernstige beserings nie.   Nie met ernstige beserings nie.  Ek kon nie vir die oorledene met 'n skietwond Brixton toe gevat het nie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: They only helped you with injuries which were not serious.

MNR GERBER: Dis korrek.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How did they do that?

MNR GERBER: Wel, hulle sal die man inboek in hulle register in hulle selle in en as daar  verdere navrae of ondervraging moet wees sal hulle ons behulpsaam wees.  Dan is daar 'n saak geregistreer waarop hulle dit doen.

JUDGE WILSON: Wat gebeur as die man kla en se jy het hom aangerand?  Wat sal Brixton doen?

MNR GERBER: U Edele, hulle was altyd bereid om ons te help.

JUDGE WILSON: Hoe het hulle julle gehelp?

MNR GERBER: Nee, dit weet ek nie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sou hulle bereid gewees het om te ontken dat die man hoegenaamd, toe hy by hulle gebring was, enige beserings gehad het?

MNR GERBER: Ek het nou nie hierdie man soontoe gevat nie, want ons het nie die kans gehad om dit te doen nie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Nee, ek verwys nie noodwendig spesifiek na hierdie aangeleentheid nie, maar ek verwys na alle vorige aangeleenthede waarby hulle vir u gehelp het.

MNR GERBER: Waar ernstige beserings betrokke was, en daar was baie min van dit, dit is skraapmerke soos 'n tou of van boeie, dan was Brixton bereid om my te help.  Hulle het van my personeel te help.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Dit is presies die vraag wat ek wil ... (tussenbeide).

MNR GERBER: Hulle was bereid om te help,, U Edele.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Ja, maar kon hulle so bereid wees om te kon ontken dat die man, toe hy by hulle gebring was, enige beserings gehad het?

MNR GERBER: Hoe hulle hulle prosedure daar werk weet ek nie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Dankie, mnr Gerber.

ADV DE JAGER: Mnr Gerber, u het getuig dat op die ou end het u die oorledene geskiet omdat u bang was hy sou na die polisie toe gaan.

MNR GERBER: Dit is korrek.