Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, I'm of the opinion that because it had been such a serious matter, that it was a reasonable amount, or that it could have been a reasonable amount, but that was something that is proposed and that is considered on regional level and after this, after these considerations had been done, it arrives with me and if I doubt, there are many cases where I limited it, or where I said it is too expensive, or negotiate again, or talk again, but if the budget allowed it at that stage, then we would have done it like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, because the amount to be paid should have put you on your guard to ask questions whether he was responsible for the information, because you know, informers are not the most reliable people in the world, are they?  And that he might have made up this story in order to get the R18 000.  Why didn't you want to satisfy yourself that that was not his motive?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Because there is a structure to do this, it is not my job to do that.  It is the region and the Intelligence community who had to do this for me and the reliability of the source, there are very reliable sources and it is only a perception that it is the case now.

GEORGE BIZOS: But if something is unreasonable on the face of it, you having to make the penultimate decision, should surely have asked:  "Isn't there something wrong here?"

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think I have already answered the question.

GEORGE BIZOS: You didn't do it and you didn't consider it necessary or reasonable to do so.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No that is not the case.  There are different phases that the plan passes through, from ground level up to the regional level and I was the third level and all those considerations had already been made.

GEORGE BIZOS: And in the plan as to what time this bomb was going to explode?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: The finer details I cannot remember at all, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you caution against the use of the limpet mine at a time when people were in the building?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Definitely.  It was also always done in  a very careful way.  There was never just blatant loss of lives.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was that made clear to your operatives that were going to carry out this deed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Definitely, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos, I keep interrupting you, but  was it - I don't know the Early Learning Centre at all.  I've never seen it.  I haven't been there.  Is it just or were you told in the proposal that it's just a hall, four walls, a couple of doors and windows or are there outbuildings or classrooms?  Was it mentioned in the plan as to whereabouts on the premises or on which structure, precisely where the bomb would be put?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, Mr Chairperson.  In this case and in general in such cases, plans had been presented for the whole area with fences and the routes to go in and the exit routes and where the bomb would be planted.  After all these years I can't specifically remember the plan, but this was definitely done.

CHAIRPERSON: But was it more than just a hall, a four-walled structure, or was it more like a school, or can't you remember?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot remember the detail at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we'll find out what it is from, during the course of the hearings.

GEORGE BIZOS: There are people who were injured and they will probably be giving evidence, Mr Chairman.  They will be able to explain.  Now, we know from the statements that appear in the police docket and which were handed to the Commission and which you've had an opportunity to read, have you seen them?  Have you seen those statements?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, I did see a few statements.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, assume for a moment that the contents of those statements is correct, that there were cars parked outside the building, which should have given an indication that there were people still in the building.  Assume further that lights, the lights of the building were still on at the time of the explosion and that should have been an indication to anyone who looked at the building, that people were likely to be in the building.  Assume further that we know from their own statement, that there were a number of people in the building, would that have been contrary to the instructions of the CCB and contrary to your instructions in this particular case, as to when and how this bomb was to be exploded?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Well, the main guideline, Mr Chairperson, was that loss of life be not be caused but I assume on ground level, that it was taken into consideration and if it was like that exactly and how many there were, I think would have to be asked to the people who executed it on ground level.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, was this to be maximum disruption, with minimum loss of life?  Is that what you are saying?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, minimum violence and this was a principle of our structure was yes, maximum violence is a nuclear explosion or a tank attack.  In our case, if you kill one person it is minimum violence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well anyway, fortunately people were only injured and not killed in this case but it would appear that it's not because of the careful handling of the members of your Committee, but if the Committee finds that there was sufficient evidence that there were people at the centre at that time, I just want a clear statement, that that would have been a breach of the instructions in relation to this particular operation.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, I think we can accept it like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now in relation to the authorisation of this, we know that Gen Webb has not applied for amnesty, we know that he denies that he authorised it, I beg your pardon, I'm sorry I have the wrong project, I apologise.  I'll cancel that question, I'm sorry, I wasn't looking at my notes and relying on my memory.  Now, were there reports-back in relation to this happening?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, Mr Chairperson, what I received from the Region and what was in the press.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was present of the person who are mentioned in the paragraph in the report as the "binne kring"?  Who were present when these reports were made and when the matter was discussed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Are you talking about afterwards, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: No, at the time that the matter was reported
back to you by your operatives, your members.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Only Christo Britz and Staal Burger who came from the Region, via the Co-ordinator it was given to me Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was your Deputy not there?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not as far as I can remember.  I do not know, I cannot think that he was there?

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it the person in charge of Finance that had to arrange for the payment there?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, they would never have been there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it reported to him why the payment was being made?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, he did not have access to this according to the financial approved system.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was any report made by you or anyone else to the person who made the bomb available and the trigger mechanism?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I did not have access to such a person, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it reported to you that there was trouble with the mechanism and that approximately three attempts had to be made?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I cannot remember this anymore.  I do not know if that was the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, I want to ask you about this access to explosives.  Bombs, letter bombs, limpet mines and other explosives are or may kill people that you did not intend to kill, would you accept that because they are not like a bullet that can be directed at a specific person?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: This is not necessarily the case.  It could be aimed at a specific targets, Mr Chairperson.