Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: No this doesn't relate to you.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela answered,
"No I have no knowledge of that Mr Chairman.  They would not have left me alone.  That would have been one time the police would have had an excuse to arrest me.  I was arrested even for asking the price of chickens before, if that had been true I would have been hauled before court".
Were there weapons found in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house when they raided her house in connection with the Oupa Sehere case?

MR ZWANE: Did they found any weapons at Mrs Mandela's place?

MR VALLY: When they raided her house in connection with the Oupa Sehere case.

MR ZWANE: What I recall is that the boys  were arrested because I never got out of the house, I was seated in the sitting room watch the TV with Kita, he never got out to find out what was going on.

MR VALLY: Because it may have been your very Scorpion pistol that was found there?  It may have been your very Scorpion machine gun that was found in the house, is that possible?

MR ZWANE: No it's not possible.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should be ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: My last question Archbishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VALLY: We have a press clipping Archbishop regarding Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's court appearance in court on that day with the photograph and we've got a statement from the court stating that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that she was a state witness....

MR SEMENYA: Sorry, that she was a state witness or she was on a list of ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: She was on a list of state witnesses, she attended court and after admissions made by the accused it wasn't necessary to call her.

MR SEMENYA: Ja but to state that she was a state witness Mr Vally, with respect.

MR VALLY: Archbishop maybe I should make it very clear for the record.  She was cited on the list of state - as state witness in the matter.  She was in court at the time, there was photographs of herself and Zinzi Madikizela-Mandela, Zinzi Mandela, I beg your pardon.  They did not have to give evidence because there were certain admissions made in that court case.  In the court transcript and I am talking at page 320 Mr Oupa Sehere testified and pointed out certain weapons that were kept in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.
 My last question is this, and you have been convicted of nine murders, we haven't had time to probe all these murders, why did you make certain admissions in court when initially you pleaded not guilty, at some point you made certain admissions in court, did you make those admissions in court to protect Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR ZWANE: What happened, well I was still young by then, I should think I was of the age of 16 years.  I was advised by the advocates that I never killed, because they got the statements from me that I never killed Oupa, (...indistinct) never denied that he showed those people there, so I thought that the admissions were made in that regard because no one said I don't know anything.  Oupa admitted having shot the people.  I admitted having accompanied Oupa, everyone agreed, so I for one thought the admissions were made in that respect in the court of law.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: So you did not do this to protect Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR ZWANE: No I did this because I was arrested after Oupa Sehere and the other guys and when I got into the (...indistinct) everyone had confessed already that we were there, we shot, so I had no option I also followed them and confessed that I was there.

MR VALLY: And the day that you made this confession was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Zinzi Mandela in court?

MR ZWANE: When I made the?

MR VALLY: When you made this admission regarding the weapons, when Mr Oupa Sehere made his admissions that he shot certain people, was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Zinzi Mandela in court?

MR ZWANE: I cannot remember.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much Mr Vally.

DR BORAINE: Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Zwane maybe in the minds of people this might be difficult to understand not having been to the house, we are talking about the house in Orlando West is that right?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR SEMENYA: The one which is a two-roomed house in the conventional sense, right?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR SEMENYA: And Zinzi's bedroom is in the outside is it not?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR SEMENYA: Now I think the perception might be created that you are going inside one single house into the bedroom where - then Mrs Mandela didn't see you.  I have no further questions to the witness.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Any other - Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: One question.  Sir, I represent Mr Richardson, do you know him?

MR ZWANE: Yes I know Jerry Richardson.

MR RICHARD: What did he do at Mrs Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: I don't know what he was, what was his work at Mrs Mandela's.  I met Jerry Richardson I think twice if I am not mistaken while visiting Mrs Mandela's place.

MR RICHARD: What was he doing?

MR ZWANE: He was moving around, and the second visit if I recall we sat together there, we drank some cans together there in the sitting room.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. Any other questions?  Please go ahead.

MR JORDI: I represent the (...indistinct).  You have told us about an incident when you went to a shebeen, there was a fight at the shebeen and thereafter it was decided to go, I think, to Mohlome's place and there was a handgrenade blast, do you know about that incident?

MR ZWANE: I know about that incident.

MR JORDI: Were you found guilty of any criminal activity in respect of that blast?

MR ZWANE: No I was acquitted.

MR JORDI: You were acquitted.  Did you hear the handgrenade go off?

MR ZWANE: I heard the handgrenade go off.

MR JORDI: Did you see the handgrenade go off?

MR ZWANE: I never saw the handgrenade go off.

MR JORDI: Right.  Did you know that a handgrenade was going to be thrown in the house?

MR ZWANE: In fact I didn't know that the handgrenade was going to be thrown, there was no plan there, the handgrenade blast came about in a fight.  I was fighting with another guy there and my commander intervened because I was being overpowered and dispossessed of the knife I was in possession of.

MR JORDI: And did the handgrenade go off immediately after you were dispossessed of the knife?

MR ZWANE: No after I was dispossessed of the knife Sonabo tried to intervene but the bodyguards of the shebeen get hold of him and they beat him and he got angry and he pulled me out of the yard and he took out a handgrenade and he threw it.

MR JORDI: So it happened right close to you?

MR ZWANE: Ja I would say I was always close to him.

MR JORDI: So you didn't see the handgrenade go off?

MR ZWANE: I didn't see it go off.

MR JORDI: Okay.

MR VALLY: Sorry Mr Jordi I just think he may not have understood you as I understand that he was found guilty, you may or may not be aware of it, of the death of Finky Mhlome.  This is the second issue but you started off with that issue.

MR JORDI: No I didn't start off with that issue.  Did Winnie Mandela know your proper name, did she know that you were called Charles Zwane?

MR ZWANE: I cannot say but usually I was called Bobo or Slovo, maybe she knows one of those names.

MR JORDI: Were you always called Bobo or did she sometimes know you as Charles Zwane?

MR ZWANE: I was never called - I was only called Charles Zwane at school.  At the township and friends they usually call me Slovo.

MR JORDI: Slovo.

MR ZWANE: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Is that it?

MR JORDI: No.  In the trial I understand that you were represented by an advocate, is that right?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR JORDI: And it must have gone on for quite a few days, there were a lot of charges against you?

MR ZWANE: That's correct Sir.

MR JORDI: So your advocate had an opportunity to speak to you every day, is that right?