Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, I am getting, I am really feeling that I am hesitant to interrupt you, but where is all of this taking us?  You know, the picture is self evident, the photograph makes it perfectly clear what he is saying and you can even see the pedestrian path that goes from the foot bridge to just near where the road goes under the bridge, as he describes it.
	Why are we wasting so much energy on such a tiny little, what doesn't seem very material, issue?

MR BERGER: For this reason and I will just put the point, and move on.  The ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let me please ask you.  Let's just focus on issues that are material to the question that we have to decide here.  If there is anything or whether these people walked on the tar road or on the foot path, put that to the witness.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in my submission there is a material issue here and the material issue relate to again full disclosure.
	The witness says that the attackers re-entered kwaMadala hostel through the main gate.  The Army say that they saw this group of attackers, they proceeded directly to the main gate and the attackers were not there, they had disappeared into the veld.
	So, I either ...

CHAIRPERSON: But put that to the witness.  Just put it to the witness because what he is saying is manifestly obvious from the map.  Is there anything to controvert what he is saying, then just put it to him so that he can have the opportunity to deal with that.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, this is what it boils down to.  You say that you and all the other attackers re-entered kwaMadala through the main gate.  The Army personnel whose affidavits I have, say that after seeing you crossing Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, they proceeded to the main gate, and none of you were there.
	What they are saying is that all of you somehow disappeared into the veld and were never seen again.  Either you are not telling the truth or they are not telling the truth.  What I want to know from you is who is not telling the truth?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I am trying to explain to you Mr Berger, that the Police I would say - correct that, the soldiers came about five minutes, in five minutes' time after we had arrived at kwaMadala.
	As I was walking on this pedestrian path, we left the soldiers standing at the Trek garage.  We were rushing as we could see we are afraid that we have to rush into the kwaMadala hostel after seeing them.  What I can say, that whoever says something to the contrary is not telling the truth, but the fact that they did come to kwaMadala after some few minutes, is true.

MR BERGER: After you entered kwaMadala, you went straight to the stadium.  Did you have a conversation with Moses Mthembu at the main gate before you went to the stadium or after?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I believe when we entered the gate coming from Boipatong, Mr Mthembu was at the gate in the small office.  When coming back from the stadium, I went to him in that small office.  Before we could discuss anything, the soldiers arrived.

MR BERGER: So you went to the stadium before you had the conversation with Mr Moses Mthembu?

CHAIRPERSON: He says he didn't have a conversation with Mr Mthembu.  The Police arrived before they could have a conversation.

MR BERGER: Before you were present with Moses Mthembu at the gate when the Police arrived, before that you had gone to the stadium?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something Mr Berger, were these Police that arrived or were these Army people that arrived?

VINCENT KHANYILE: It is only soldiers that I saw on that day.

MR LAX: ... avoid the confusion where we all start talking about the Police when in fact it is soldiers according to the evidence I have found.  Please carry on Mr Berger, sorry.

MR BERGER: Thank you.  Is it correct that all the attackers went back to the stadium after the attack?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I won't be certain but I would say most of them did go to the stadium.
	There are trees in the vicinity of kwaMadala, I don't know whether others proceeded to the houses or not.

MR BERGER: A few days, a day or two after the attack on Boipatong, is it correct that Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu came to kwaMadala?

VINCENT KHANYILE: It is correct.

MR BERGER: Who else was with them?

VINCENT KHANYILE: It was an Attorney, Anina van der Westhuizen.  I am not too sure if I am pronouncing this name correctly.

MR BERGER: That is Ms Anina van der Westhuizen who is present today.

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that she had an Interpreter with her?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I don't have any recollection of as to who she was with, but at the time, the Attorney said nothing to us.
	The people who were busy talking to us were the Police who had been assisted by Themba Khosa in the sense that he was interpreting for them.  They kept coming often for more days.
	But I am not too sure if they came the same time or the Attorney followed.

MR BERGER: Well, I am more concerned with Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu and that meeting.  Is it correct that at that meeting Mr Themba Khosa informed the residents of kwaMadala that they should burn and destroy all evidence which linked them to the attack on Boipatong?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I am not in a position to respond there, because I have not heard that or I did not hear that.
	What I understood then was that the Police were about 500 to 600 in number.  I do trust and hope that there were some black Policemen who could have understood Themba Khosa as he was speaking because they were using the same language.

MR BERGER: Why would Mr Victor Mthembu say that Mr Themba Khosa in fact did give such an instruction if no such instruction was given?

VINCENT KHANYILE: If I remember well, when I came back from work, I hope Themba Khosa was already there.  Maybe if he did say that, he could have said that before my arrival.

MR BERGER: On what day was that?

VINCENT KHANYILE: It was on a Thursday.

MR BERGER: Was that the day after the attack?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes, that is correct.  To my knowledge I think Themba came on Thursday.

MR BERGER: Where were you working at the time?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I was working in Vanderbijlpark at a place called Supreme.

MR BERGER: Didn't you tell the Committee yesterday that from Thursday the 18th of June, none of the residents were allowed out of the hostel until the following Monday because the Police were preventing you from leaving the hostel?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That happened on that specific day, but late in the afternoon.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that there was a time on Thursday the 18th of June, when the Police were allowing people to leave the hostel, but only after that, the Police sealed the hostel?

VINCENT KHANYILE: What time the Police arrived in that area, I am not sure, but when I come back from work, they were present.  When I left for work early in the morning, at about five o'clock, they were not there.

MR BERGER: When you left for work at five o'clock in the morning, neither the Police or the Army were there, you were allowed free access out of the hostel?

VINCENT KHANYILE: During those times the hostel was not closed.

MR BERGER: Please answer my question - when you left the hostel to go to work at five o'clock on Thursday morning, are you saying that there were no Police and no Army personnel present outside the hostel?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is what I am saying.

MR BERGER: And are you saying that you and other residents of the hostel were allowed free access out of the hostel at that time?

VINCENT KHANYILE: What I know is all the people were supposed to go to work early in the morning, they freely went to work without any prevention of getting out by the Police because there were no Police outside the gate.

MR BERGER: When you returned, you found Themba Khosa addressing a meeting, is that what you are saying?