Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, that is what I am saying.  In my mind there might be some confusion between the two incidents on the interrogation aspect of it, there might have been when I made my 204 statement.

MR MALAN: Aren't you actually saying to us that if your fellow applicants, who deny any interrogation, were to be correct, then that may be an explanation for your believing interrogation of Bhila as your confusion of superimposing one incident on another?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I will repeat myself and say that today I do not remember any interrogation of Mr Bhila.

CHAIRPERSON: A moment ago you said you cannot remember if he was interrogated or not.  Which is it?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't remember if he was interrogated.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't deny that he was interrogated today?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't remember, but two years you did remember, not only that he was interrogated, but what he was asked about?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no reply to that Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Thank you.  Mr Visser, may I just pursue another line which I think all of your clients have tended often, and that is what would probably have happened.  You often, you too Mr Rosslee, earlier referred to the probabilities of certain lines of development.
	Do you think there would probably have been some interrogation if it related indeed also to a second target?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would say if there was a second target that we needed information on, it is likely that he would have been interrogated.

MR MALAN: And even if you did not need information, would you not have spoken to him in all likelihood about confirming whatever information you had?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I should imagine there would have, in that scenario like that, we would have liked to have confirmed, yes.

MR MALAN: So, it seems very strange that Bhila would have been held from fairly early morning, through to dark, without anybody talking to him, asking him any questions?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no recollection of that, I cannot remember if it was done or not.

MR MALAN: No, I am asking you your opinion on whether that would have been par for the cause, or sort of normal, or would he have been interrogated, which is the more likely?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I am sure someone spoke to him during the course of the day Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: In terms of an interrogation?  Asking questions?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Asking questions, yes.

MR MALAN: You are sure someone would have spoken to him?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I should imagine someone would have spoken to him Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Did you speak to him personally?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: But you were there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, I was there.  I cannot remember speaking to him.

ADV SIGODI: If you did speak to him, would you remember?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: There are things that I have forgotten from that time, I don't know.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it seems that we won't be able to finish with Exhibit B before the short adjournment.  This might be a convenient time to take the short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take the short adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: (still under oath)

MR VISSER: (continued)   Thank you Mr Chairman.  May I be allowed to interpose to rectify an incorrect statement, which I placed on record when I was speculating a little earlier on before the adjournment.  That regards the people who were discharged from guilt in the Ramlakan case.
	I was wrong Mr Chairman, Zandile Poshua Ndwandwe, to whom we refer as Zandile, as not an accused in that case.  In fact there were three people that were either found not guilty or discharged.  Accused 1 was Dudu Buthelezi, who was found not guilty at the end of the case.  I am told by my learned friend, Mr Van Schalkwyk who incidentally turns out to have been the Prosecutor in that case, and Bhila and Pumeso were in fact discharged after the close of the State case.

MR MALAN: My information is that Zandile was a State witness, number 38 in that case, didn't give evidence?  Bhila Poshua Ndwandwe, on the list page 77, of the indictment is listed as State  witness 38, but she didn't give evidence, she wasn't called, probably refused.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we haven't been privy to a copy of that documentation, and perhaps it might be an idea for the completion of the record, if my learned friend would see his way clear, Mr Prior, to perhaps include that as an Exhibit as well as the judgement of Mr Justice Thirion.
	Perhaps it might make something clear on the facts Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you want a copy of the judgement?

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, yes, having said that and having ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, unless there are very serious reasons, I don't see why the Committee should pay for a copy of the judgement.  I say this because what we have been shown by Mr Prior, is the record up to the close of the State case, which is 2 549 pages.
	If we then have the eight accused giving evidence, I can image the judgement would run into hundreds of pages.

MR VISSER: The judgement is available here Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Perhaps if I may assist Mr Chairman, I've got the judgement here.

CHAIRPERSON: How long is it?

ADV PRIOR: It is two volumes, it is approximately 200 pages.

MR VISSER: I withdraw that suggestion Mr Chairman.  I didn't want to make paper for you Mr Chairman, that wasn't the intention.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I will make available the list of State witnesses at the trial.  I do apologise for the record that was put up.  I don't know at what basis Mr Chaskalson has put, but the only relevant pages, the last one where Thirion J, discharges accused 7 and 8, and that was the sole purpose of putting that up.
	The other information contained in that bundle, is really irrelevant for the purposes of this hearing.  I do apologise for that.

MR VISSER: Yes, I understand Mr Chairman.  If I may be permitted then to proceed with Mr Rosslee Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, carry on.

MR VISSER: Mr Rosslee, I want to leave the pistol shooting range,but before i do so, just one last aspect in regard to the pistol shooting range, and that appears from page 4 of Exhibit B, where reference is made in paragraph 6 in the following words, "ons het vleis gebraai en so teen sterk skemer het ek", etc.  Is that something which you recall today independently, the fact that you prepared meat while at the pistol shooting range?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, to my recollection, we did braai meat there.

MR VISSER: Yes.  All right.  And then that sentence goes on to say and we are now going on to your departure from the pistol shooting range, that yourself, Steve Bosch, McCarter, Wasserman, Mike and Spyker and I take it also Mr Bhila, then got into a Husky bus and you departed.
	I am not going to go into the Spyker issue again, but other than that, is the information in that paragraph correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And again in paragraph 7, you make the statement that you drove somewhere on directions given and you mentioned Spyker again, but you have already explained that, but on directions at least of Michael Lembede, not so?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You drove off along the South Coast road and then you turned off it seems, please stop me if I am wrong, into the inland, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you, Mr Rosslee, the family or relations of Mr Bhila has directed through their legal representative a request to the applicants, to assist if they can, in determining where the precise spot is that Mr Bhila's body was ejected over the cliff.
	I want to ask you, do you think that you would be able to find that spot again?