Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

MR WILLIAMS: Now Sir, I have a suspicion that gangsters in our community were supplied with weapons by certain arms of the State, I'm not necessarily saying it came from the CCB or whatever?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have information that the ANC and uMkhonto weSizwe supplied twenty times more firearms to gangsters.

MR WILLIAMS: But you're evading the question, you're not answering the question?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not at all, I cannot - I am not able to answer for the State I can only answer for my structures.

MR WILLIAMS: Sir, before I wrap up my cross-examination of you I just want to ask you a few questions which might be a bit personal, whatever.  You stated yesterday or the day before when Advocate Bizos asked you a question you said something, words to the effect, that
"When I come from a milieu where we do not speak"
Can you remember ever having used those words?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Continue with the question please?

MR WILLIAMS: Now is it correct that there are certain incidents that you have perhaps not applied for amnesty for that you are not prepared to talk about?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, there is nothing, nothing at all.

MR WILLIAMS: Now what did you mean by those words?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't know, you must explain what you want to know of me, I do not understand your question.

MR WILLIAMS: You say in bundle A, page 170, that a
"A true soldier does not sell"

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It is about confessing, it is about the confessional style of the Roman Catholics where one says I am crying and I want to cry about what I had done.  That is what I meant.  I know that the law and that does not include confession.

MR WILLIAMS: But aren't you busy confessing here to us, that you've been involved in this?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I am satisfying the requirements of the law here.

MR WILLIAMS: You've also if I've heard correctly, you've also said that there are certain project files in the office of your attorney, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Please repeat that?

MR WILLIAMS: Certain project files are in the offices of your attorney, did you say that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is not what I said, I did not say that.

MR WILLIAMS: But maybe I should ask you, are there any files which related to projects that you might have been involved in that is being kept at the offices of your attorney?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't know where you get that, it was never said, we spoke of eleven years back when files in the structures of then and there were specific letters that the State sent to my attorney where they invited me to be present when they destroyed the files and then I said I was not interested because I was no longer part of the State, that was the uniformed side of the South African Army.  It was never said that files were kept at my attorney's office.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, that is my recollection of the evidence, Mr Williams, I speak subject to correction but I can't recall anything being said about the attorney being in possession of project files.

MR WILLIAMS: I've made a note to that effect but I could be wrong.  Then also in bundle A, page 170, you also say that, something to the effect that - maybe I should just get the exact wording?  Paragraph 32, can you read the first sentence to us, Sir?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Commanders are obviously sorry for family or friends of any soldiers or co-workers who had lost their lives  for political ideal that was mismanaged."

MR WILLIAMS: Do I understand a political ideal that was mismanaged, that the ideal is correct but it was incorrectly implemented or something to that effect?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I meant the rest of the South African Structures.

MR WILLIAMS: But do you personally think that apartheid is morally justifiable now, as you sit there now?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I am not going to be drawn into political nonsense.

MR WILLIAMS: I'm asking you a question about your political beliefs.  I'm asking it purely to see whether I myself would be able to as an erstwhile victim or intended victim would be able to reconcile myself if there is such a request from the applicant.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't know what you mean.

MR WILLIAMS: I'll leave it there Sir, I get the message.  I've got no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Williams.  Mr Hockey, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

MR HOCKEY: I do Mr Chairperson, thank you.  I must say that if your, in soccer, terms if your striking force and the midfield keeps the ball for long there's very little for the back line to do but I do have a few questions.

MR HOCKEY: Mr Verster, I know, I'm quite aware of the fact that you testified that you're not prepared to give evidence on any external activities of the CCB.  However, you did testify that on the main focus of the CCB was external?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: In fact when the CCB was started, was formed, it only concentrated on external activities and only later was Region 6 formed which operated internally?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: Are you prepared to tell us and this is a general question, how many projects externally was the CCB involved with?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No I do not know, I can't tell you that.

MR HOCKEY: Are you prepared to tell us or can you tell us how many projects inside the country, the CCB was involved with?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was only the projects that are mentioned here that we are applying for amnesty for and with the rest the structure was busy implementing itself and even the people the functioning within Region 6 was part of the external activities.  They did not run around in the country and do the police's work, it was only part of the lines that came from outside South Africa into the core of South Africa but eventually they would also function outside.

MR HOCKEY: So you're saying internally there were only four - three projects, rather?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Smaller projects and maybe planning projects but nothing that will have to be handled within this act.

MR HOCKEY: How many projects were the CCB involved with?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not have the numbers in front of me at this point but if I can remember correctly we spoke about 150 or 160, I can't remember the exact figure.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hockey.  Just on that Mr Verster, you said that when the bubble burst the CCB was made a scapegoat and the various government departments all wanted to blame their activities onto the CCB to a certain extent that your members were locked up, etc. etc.  Why would they have done that if the internal operation of the CCB was really in the overall picture of things, on what you say now is so insignificant.  I mean four incidents and the rest was just scratching around getting information and planning.  Why should the whole State machinery choose such a small operation such as yours to load such huge blame?