Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Mrs Derby-Lewis, now that we have an accepted version of the what is on the tape, I'd like to ask you one or two questions ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you serious when you say one or two?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, it's a way of speaking Mr Chairman.
	In relation to paragraph 52, the absence of the word: "Hani's" on the tape, would you agree that - in the context of what is admitted to be on the tape, that this was an obvious reference to Hani?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Now, so that
"He said that during the discussions with Kuba they had mentioned such a thing like Hani's death, he said that he hadn't thought that Kuba would do such a thing at all"
is something that you said?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, or words to that effect.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or words to that effect.  Now, the other in paragraph 54
"He did say that he couldn't understand why Kuba had been so stupid to drive around so obvious"
We leave out the words that are not there:
"He did admit to me however, they had discussed it"
Do you agree that if we take out the words that do not appear on the tape, it is still a statement of your husband having told you that they had discussed it and that he expressed the view that he was stupid to drive around so obvious, do you agree with that?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, there are two sections to that paragraph.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: The first is just discussing about what he did with the driving around and then the second section says
"He did admit to me however, they had discussed it"
In other words, that I knew that they had planned it, that is not correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well
"He did admit to me however, that they had discussed it"
What were you speaking about when you said it?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I'm not sure but it's definitely not to say that I was involved or I knew that they were involved in the planning of it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well
"He did admit to me however, they had discussed it"
Discussed what?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, on the face of it, it looks like discussing the murder - the plans, that's what it looks like.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, what looks like usually is.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I'm now denying that I knew anything about the planning of it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was not whether you knew anything about it but whether you were told about it.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Told about it by who Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: By your husband.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, everybody knew about it, it had been in the newspapers.

CHAIRPERSON: I wish you'd answer the question.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I'm sorry, I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Told about it?

CHAIRPERSON: The words as they read, what do they convey to you?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, it conveys to me that Clive was discussing about Kuba in the car and then the number plates thing is out and then
"He did admit to however, they had discussed it"
On the face of it, it looks as if he told me that they had planned the murder and I - he did not tell me that he had planned the murder.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think that those words - as far as you are concerned, what do they mean?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, on the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What do they mean to you?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: On the face of it, it looks as if that's exactly what I said and the only explanation that I can have from that is that - I'm now trying to please a little bit, maybe it was suggested to me, maybe Mr Beetge came up and said: "This is what Clive said, I don't know, it's a long time ago and I have no explanation for it.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no explanation for that?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, I'll carry on.  In paragraph 59
"Clive said: "Maybe it was the Government or someone was behind it as it didn't sound like Kuba who would go into a situation head on"
Now, do you agree that:
"Said: "Maybe it was"
is a simile for the word:
"Clive thought"

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, just for the record - as Mr Brandt indicated, he said: "It's more or less what was said, it is not the same words used".

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The sense of it.

GEORGE BIZOS: The sense of it.
	Is there anything that you quarrel with in the sense of it?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, it seems to me that we were discussing it and he said: "I can't understand how a man like Kuba could do something like that", I think that was basically what this is about.

GEORGE BIZOS: And 60
"I asked Clive about the gun but he never told me"
You ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You aid that?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: This a point of trouble with me.  During the interrogation they asked me at least 10 times about a gun and the only explanation that I have for this is that I've now reached the end of my questioning, I have been told by Mr Deetleffs that I may not be charged - just after 12 midnight on the 24th of the 4th and he says: "It is not certain that they are going to charge you".
	And I'm now saying that I'm now agreeing with them because perhaps Mr Deetleffs - Mr Beetge had told me: "This is what Clive said and this can't be used against you" but if you see in my testimony in both tapes, on numerous occasions - in fact I even emphasised that: "I never talked to him about a gun" and: "Why do you keep asking me".  I admit that I said it, I can't deny it, it's on the tape.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, the four paragraphs which you denied when I first referred you to 402, were paragraph 54 - sorry, 52, 54, 59 and 60 - we made a careful note, these were the paragraphs which - the contents of which you denied, 52, 54, 59 and 60, is that correct?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I disputed the contents.

GEORGE BIZOS: You denied that you said that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: She says she disputed it.

GEORGE BIZOS: You dispute it.  Now, the one common factor amongst these paragraphs - with or without the amendments, is that they tend to show that you had knowledge of the planning of the murder of Mr Hani, do you agree with my ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I don't, they tend to show that I had been softened up, that I was promised a carrot and I was told that what I wrote couldn't be used in court, so I was prepared to compromise.  I remember distinctly - Mr Beetge for example, asking me on numerous occasions about the gun.

GEORGE BIZOS: You are now dealing with the question that may be asked of you later - either by me or a member of the court, as to why you said it.  The question was that what you are recorded to have said as amended, those four paragraphs have one factor in common, they tend to show that you had knowledge of the fact that the murder of Mr Hani was being planned by your husband and Mr Walus?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I agree they tend to show that and I agree that they were meant to tend to show that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, when you were asked whether you had said the matters recorded in this paragraph, why did you deny it?  Why did you deny that you said that or anything of the sort? - there was just a denial, you did not say it?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I think I disputed it, I disputed the contents and they've now been cleared up - I couldn't remember the exact words.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, please come to terms with the question, why did you deny that you said anything like that when in truth and in fact you now admit that with the amendments you did say - in substance, what is contained in these paragraphs.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Bizos, as far as I recall I disputed the contents, I had already seen this tape and I had already put down notes and I had already said - written down various things and they - it differed from what was here.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, the honest answer - especially if you had notes of it which - they were not the notes that you gave me yesterday were they?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were they?