Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

MR MOERANE: About the same time that the Piet Retief inquest was going on, he was also the investigating officer of the Harms Commission.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: As you know this was an investigation into the allegations made by, amongst others, Mr Nofomela and Mr Dirk Coetzee.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: About the existence of hit squads within the South African Police Force.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, the inquest, was that about 1990?

MR MOERANE: It started in 1989 and it was concluded in 1991.
	Now tell us about Gen Engelbrecht, with particular reference to the role that he played or has played in investigations.  I'm interested particularly in cover-ups.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, to define it in brief, if for me as a Major or a Colonel it was not possible to deal with a case or to cover it up, then a person like myself would go to Brig Schoon and we would look for further assistance there.  What would happen, as in the case of the Harms Commission, is that the best and most loyal senior person and who had enough expertise, would assist one to take the police's case further for damage control or prevention of any damage.

MR MOERANE: Well would you regard Gen Krappies Engelbrecht as a sweeper, who tried his best to protect the police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Do you know how he became the investigator of the Piet Retief incident, the first incident?  After Brig van Wyk and after W/O Pienaar had been removed as investigators?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, what I do know is that somewhere Brig van Wyk - I do not want to use the wrong terms, but I think he had a difference with the higher hierarchy ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Moerane, just before you proceed.
	Who was Brig van Wyk, where was he attached, what division, which part of the country, where did he slot in?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, he was second-in-command of the Detective Branch, but seated at head office at the Detective Senior Personnel, if I can put it that way, it might not be the correct words.

CHAIRPERSON: And was Gen Engelbrecht in charge of that branch?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, the Security Branch at head office had several components there, for example the head of SANAB - no, it's not Security Branch, it's CID.  One would have the Chief of the RSA Vehicle Branch, one would have the Chief of the Diamond Branch, Chief of the Narcotics Branch, one would have the Chief of Murder and Robbery Units, where Gen Engelbrecht was.  I am not certain where Brig van Wyk fitted in, but that is how it worked.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Moerane.

MR MOERANE: Would it be correct to describe the investigation that was conducted by Brig van Wyk, particularly taking into account his high rank, as an incompetent investigation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, yes.  And I would like to qualify because it would be dishonest not to do so.  It was to protect, and there goes his integrity.

MR MOERANE: Yes, well let's cut this very short.  Would I be correct in saying that the whole investigation of this first incident, from beginning right up to the end, was designed to protect the police and cover up any embarrassment that might be caused to the police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson and I would also add it was a police or State sanctioned defeating the ends of justice.

MR MOERANE: No let's come to the inquest itself ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Moerane, that last question of yours related to Brig van Wyk.

MR MOERANE: It related not only to Brig van Wyk, but to all three investigators.  In other words, W/O Pienaar, Brig van Wyk, Gen Krappies Engelbrecht.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I then just ask the applicant, do you know whey van Wyk was replaced by Engelbrecht?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I cannot give direct evidence about that, but I understood that it was a situation about promotion and there were problems surrounding Brig van Wyk's promotion and he preferred to leave the Force.

MR MALAN: Did he leave the Force at that stage?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, as far as I know.

MR MOERANE: Now let's come to the inquest itself.  As you have already said, the major feature of the inquest was perjury upon perjury committed by police officers that took part in the incident.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And that included, as you have already told the Committee yourself, it included W/O Pienaar?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: It included Maj, as he now is, Hayes?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: It included Capt Barnard, as he now is?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: It included Maj Theron?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: It included Lt Ras?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: The persons that I have mentioned, were they all aware that this was an ambush?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No-one of them can be under any illusion about that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Not at all, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: As you have said, there was absolutely no intention to arrest these people.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, it was an ambush.

MR MOERANE: In other words, these people were to be killed, whether or not they were armed?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, no, we expected armed members of MK and that was one of the reasons for my dissatisfaction or confusion when no weapons were found with them or in their bags.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but the intention Colonel, was to kill them whether or not the were armed, it was an ambush.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, it would have boiled down to that.  If they were MK members, it would have led to their death, whether they had weapons or not.

MR MOERANE: Let's take the case of the person who was falling out from the rear of the car, who was still living.  That person posed no danger to anybody.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And according Lt Ras, in his application he says that you said "skiet die bitch".

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I said a few moments ago that I'm not going to play the good boy.  The word "bitch" isn't the type of word that I would usually use in normal language, especially not towards women of any nature, but I said "shoot her and shoot her through the head".

MR MOERANE: Well Colonel, so what is your evidence on this aspect, with regard to the statement made Lt Ras, do you dispute it?  In other words, do you dispute that you put it in those terms "skiet die bitch"?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I dispute the word "bitch", but nothing of the rest.

MR MOERANE: Would it be correct to say that a searchlight was trained on this vehicle?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Some of the applicants say that - and I believe yourself too, say that the left rear window of the vehicle was opened slightly.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, as I've said in my evidence, the left back window began to move, it was minute and that along with my hesitation led me to take the decision to open fire.  However, even if this had not taken place, I would still have opened fire.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  If I understand your state of mind Colonel, you are saying that you conceived your duty as one of fighting the enemy and the enemy in this case being defined as trained ANC and PAC cadres.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And you are telling the Committee that you were given a free reign to do this, by your superiors?