Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MR ZILWA: I see, so after you reported the matter to Max Taho and who in turn reported to Prince Madikizela, was there any official response from the organisation, say Prince Madikizela, the Chairman of that sub-region?  Was there any response from him?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Just before I answer.  Another thing that I would like to put to the attention of the Committee is that comrade Chris Hani at that time was talking about peace.  That was another thing which really caused us to be angry in the literal sense of the word, because these people failed to kill Chris Hani at the time when he was aware, so that was another thing because according to my own analysis, the government was not cooperating.
	Because the government had all the assets, so he had a better chance to make this country good for the process of negotiations.  But comrade Chris Hani died at the time when there were negotiations, so that really caused us to really become very much angry.
	To come to your question, and Max therefore, also reported the operation to comrade Prince Madikizela.  Comrade Prince Madikizela was the Chairman of the ANC sub-region at the time.
	Indeed thereafter, comrade Prince Madikizela came to me and consulted me about the details of the whole operation.  I narrated everything to him, since the operation was carried out in our capacity as members of the ANC.

MR ZILWA: I see.  Is it also correct that some time thereafter, apparently the news leaked and your involvement in the operation also leaked and you were eventually apprehended by the police and charged with the murders and attempted murders?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, eventually we were charged.

MR ZILWA: Is it also correct that in the course of that trial, you denied any involvement in these killings and in fact, you proceeded on the basis that you were not there at all, you never participated in any way in that killing, you in fact you pleaded an alibi, you claimed to be somewhere else at the time of that killing, is that correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, it is correct that all that I told the Court, was not true, because I did the thing.  So, this is the truth, which could be - this is the truth.

MR ZILWA: Now, have you told this, you have already admitted that you did not tell the Court the truth.  Have you told this Committee the whole truth and nothing else but the truth as you have sworn?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I have told the Committee the whole truth.

MR ZILWA: Now, with regard to the victims or the families or friends of the victims, do you have anything to say to them?  How do you feel about what you did?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: To the families, I apologise for what happened to their beloved ones and for the trauma and the pain that they suffered at the time.
	But I appeal to them to understand it in the sense that that happened only due to the then political dispensation.  Now that we are on the new political dispensation, may they please forgive us for what we did and reconcile with us.  I am saying that from the bottom of my heart.

MR ZILWA: Is it also correct that during consultation, you requested me to arrange with the legal representatives for the other side, to be given a chance to actually talk to them personally, namely to the families of the victims or to the victims who are present, to really convey your apology to them?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Is there anything else that you can recall which you have not told this Committee?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, there is.  I want also to put to the attention of the Commission that our plan was not a one day plan.  We decided to carry out the operation up to a stage where really, we would say it is enough, but because of the call from President Madiba that people should remain calm, now we decided to put down arms and then comply with what the President was saying.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear that call?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I cannot be exact, whether it was on the memorial service or at the funeral of comrade Chris Hani, I cannot be exact, but we heard that call after we had carried out this operation.

MR ZILWA: And after hearing the call, you decided to heed it and to abandon all your other plans to carry out similar operations elsewhere?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Now, is there anything at all that you can think of which is opposite to this matter which you have not disclosed to this Committee?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: In the premises of what I said, I humbly plead that it may - may the Committee view our action in a proper context and to acknowledge that we were motivated by political objectives, and beliefs and therefore please grant us the amnesty.

MR ZILWA: If it were to be suggested that your actions were not really politically motivated, but it was just shear racial prejudice on your part without any political motivation, how would you respond to that affirmant?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I cannot agree with that because what I am saying is that we went to Port St Johns on the information that there were counter-revolutionary forces there, who were of course white skinned.
	The fact that we really targeted the white enemy, is the fact that comrade Chris Hani was assassinated by a white person.  Now, that would really convey the message to the government according to our own belief.

MR ZILWA: Now, there is a lot of places where there are white people, particularly like I think you are in Flagstaff, so you would be near to the Wild Coast, where most white people frequent, and there are other areas.  The fact that you targeted Port St Johns, are you saying it is because of what you had heard about the counter-revolutionary forces there in Port St Johns?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Anything else you would like to tell this Committee which I haven't led you about?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.

MR ZILWA: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the witness' evidence.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ZILWA

CHAIRPERSON: You know, I believe that today most people of this country have come to terms with the changes, but yet there are in certain quarters, people both black and white, who still believe in separatism.
	Given your attitude then when the attack was directed at people with white skins, can you fit in today into today's society?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.  Yes, I just want to make you aware that as the Self Defence Unit, we were not there to initiate any attack to the whites, but this killing of comrade Chris Hani caused us to do that.
	Self Defence Units were there to defend, not to initiate any attack.  So to answer the question, I can fit because I am for the reconciliation with the people whom initially, we referred to them as our enemies.

CHAIRPERSON: On a non-racial basis?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, on a non-racial basis.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you ever claim responsibility for these murders?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: When?

ADV DE JAGER: After you had done the killing, did you tell the people of South Africa, listen I had done this, or the government, or the newspapers?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, could you then please explain to me how would you convey a message that you had done this, because you are retaliating the death of Chris Hani if you don't tell the government listen, we had done this because Hani had been killed?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, it was for the government to see that, because we did that within that atmosphere, at the time when the whole South African people were showing out the anger.  One would remember that even at the day of the funeral, I think it is four days after we had carried out this thing, people were still angry, so the speculation of the newspaper to quote one at ...(indistinct) was all right, there was no need for us to go and announce to the country.

ADV DE JAGER: But even today, they are killing people every day.