Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: So you did not believe in the concept of a so-called Western Democracy?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I did not believe in it.

MR PHOSA: So you were from the outset on the basis that you were not acting democratically, for a democratic government?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think, if I have to think back, I just linked democracy to whites.

MR PHOSA: No, I am talking I am addressing an adult of your age, passed matric, with experience and obviously a political sentiment of some sort, now, you know what we are talking about when we say democracy, don't you know?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Democracy has in it an element of fairness to others?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: You knew your attitude, you knew that the government that you are supporting was totally unfair to black people?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, but I did indeed believe that the ANC and the SACP wished to take over the country which would have further consequences for both blacks and for the white government.

MR PHOSA: Please don't skip the question.  You knew that your government that you were supporting politically, as you say, was treating black people unfairly in the way you understand by fairness?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: You knew therefore that morally, from the point of view of fairness, it had no reason to treat human beings unfairly or didn't you care?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I do not believe that it bothered me at that stage.

MR PHOSA: No, you were no longer acting as just a Policeman, you were acting as a political, you had a political conduct, sir, you want us to understand, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I accept that it was politically motivated, yes.

MR PHOSA: Now, can I just then say later that you were aware that the government you are supporting, was acting undemocratically but you are so indoctrinated that you are prepared to act undemocratically as well?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: So you knew that your government did not care about the lives of the people in the Eastern Cape, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I wouldn't say that they weren't concerned about them, they were concerned.  I was concerned.

MR PHOSA: Did you consider yourself as being more vicious towards black people in your attitude than your government?  Do you think that you were definitely more vicious than say Mr Botha?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I am not saying that.

MR PHOSA: Do you think you cared more for white people than Mr Botha?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, these are perceptions, I don't know what he thought.

MR PHOSA: No, no, I am talking about your perceptions.  You are bringing these political considerations in this matter, which I have difficulty with, but I am asking you did you consider yourself as being the better guardian of the white peoples' interest, than even Mr Botha?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, I was on ground level.  I had to carry out the policy of the National Party.

MR PHOSA: You would carry the policy if you could, exactly in the manner that the Nationalist Party would have wanted you to carry it, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Now, that government Nationalist Party, even for what it was, had laws enacted in Parliament and made known to everyone publicly, isn't it?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?  Made what known to everyone publicly, mr Phosa?

MR PHOSA: I said it made laws, laws and had them known to anyone, made them announced publicly.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have to ask a question we all know that the government made laws Mr Phosa?  Get on with your questioning and don't go on making political speeches.

MR PHOSA: No, Mr Chairperson, I have difficulty.  This is a political standstill by the witness and if I am being frustrated, I will rather not go on with the matter.  This man is making political statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phosa, you can see what you are doing to the people here.  This man was a Policeman, he knew that Parliament enacted laws.  You don't have to ask him that question.  Get on and ask him something sensible.

MR PHOSA: Mr Chairperson, can I just stand down?  I cannot go on in these circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Your Attorney can take over.

MR PHOSA: No, my Attorney won't take over.  I cannot go on (indistinct),  and I would like to speak to you in private.

CHAIRPERSON: No Mr Phosa, you will speak publicly.  You are asking a question which I have told you is a waste of time because everybody knows Parliament enacted laws.  There is no need to ask a witness that.

MR PHOSA: Mr Chairman, there is something which you've mentioned, which I can't mention publicly.  I want to speak to you in private please.  I don't want to comment publicly about some of your remarks.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr Phosa.  If this goes on, we will clear the hall.  I have said that already, we will not tolerate noise in the hall.  If this sort of noise goes on, I will request the Police to clear the hall.

MR PHOSA: In the interest of progress, I shall not approach you Mr Chairman, (indistinct) as the position is.  May I just request that I be treated with respect I deserve.
	Mr Du Plessis, you see, you knew that your own government was against the killing of human beings.  It was a crime to kill others.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: You knew that your government made laws which the rest of the world did not want, but when it wanted to make them, it made them?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: You knew that your government therefore was not scared about international opinion, because it made for instance the Internal Security Act?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Tight.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going onto a new point?

MR PHOSA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We have been asked to take the adjournment at quarter to eleven.  We were asked to do that all week, and I am afraid I forgot about that entirely, and we will come back at eleven o'clock.
HEARING ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Phosa.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: (s.u.o.)

MR PHOSA: (cont)
	Mr Du Plessis, you say in your evidence you were suspicious of the TRC regarding the Truth and Reconciliation process, do you remember saying that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, sir.

MR PHOSA: You were not sure that you would be treated fairly, is that so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: What does being treated fairly suggest to you?  What does being treated fairly in the context of what you feared?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I believed that this was just a smoke screen to get us to come forward and in this manner to be able to divulge evidence against us.

MR PHOSA: May the Committee bear with me please.  I thought maybe I misunderstood you, could you just restate that.  What was your fear?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: In short that it was a way of prosecuting us.

MR PHOSA: So, at that stage the sole reason for being hesitant was self preservation?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: Had the idea that you had to make the world know about your wrongs, entered your mind at that stage?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Which do you consider more important, your self preservation, that is avoiding being charged by the present government where there is no death sentence on the one side and keeping these families continually uninformed as to what happened to their children?  Which did you think was better?