Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

MR LAX: Yes but as a field worker you were allocated to a specific desk, obviously if you got other information you'd notify them about that.  Isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I did not have a specific desk allocated to me.

MR LAX: And then - did you have a specific geographical area attributed to you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I had explained, Chairperson, that I worked in Wepener and Zastron to gather information.

MR LAX: Yes.  And how did it come about then that you were then suddenly moved to Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not know what motivated that to happen, but I believe there was a shortage of people in that desk.

MR LAX: Now when you moved to become a field worker in Lesotho, what briefing process were you put through?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There was no briefing process, Sir.

MR LAX: No briefing process?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Sir.  I do not recall receiving any briefing process.

MR LAX: Was that because you already knew everything there was to know about Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believe that is so.

MR LAX: Well where did you acquire all this additional information about Lesotho from?

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, there are also other permutations, this is not the only possibility.  It could have been considered that he knew nothing about information gathering per se.  For example.  Chairperson, with great respect, may I just say this.  We tend during this hearing, and it's happened before and it's happening again and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, to stray so far from what is relevant, with great respect, that what is happening is that the witnesses are getting more and more confused as to what he's supposed to come and tell the Committee.  Here is a witness who is a good example, who tells you that he had no personal knowledge about these people and their recruitment, and look at the questions he's got to feel, Chairperson, and one cannot help but ask, what has that got to do with his application?  With great respect.  I don't want to say anything more than just to draw your attention to the fact, Chairperson, that perhaps we could go forwards perhaps a little bit more expeditiously on relevant issues, rather than taking the time on irrelevant issues.  But I take it no further.

CHAIRPERSON: I would say to everybody, you are not restricted, but let it be within parameters to do that, because as we hear the witness, sometimes he mentions things that he has told us, when he hasn't and that's a clear sign of confusion.  And I would request that let's not have long and compounded questions, let's have a single fact for the witness to be able to answer.  I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but let's try and stick to this incident, these incidents, because we would take a longer time and we have those constraints time-wise, that we have to finish the process.
	Mr Thulo, you say on page 23 that you left the services on medical grounds, when did you join the Special Branch again?  You say January 1996 you left because of ill health.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you come back to the Special Branch or the South African Police?  Or what do you mean
"Tree uit diens op mediese gronde"
What do you mean by that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I don't understand the gist of your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, look at page 23, just right at the bottom, the last thing on the bottom of the page
"January 1996"
you are giving us a resume about yourself.  I'll state it as is.
"Left the service because of medical reasons"

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?  It would appear you understand it now, what do you mean by that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Diabetes, Sir, caused me to leave my position.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say position, what are you referring to?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It could not be controlled, so it was difficult for me to carry on with my duties.  This was a recommendation from the doctors who said I must stop working.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, what I understood is that you are out of the Police Force now.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Thulo.

MR LAX: Mr Thulo, I was asking you about your duties when you started working in Lesotho, and what exactly did you do?  Just give us a rough idea what your duties were.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, my work was to gather information and I would not do that without using informers in Lesotho.

MR LAX: How many informers did you handle yourself?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would not recall their number exactly.

MR LAX: Was it more than 20, was it less than 20?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There were less than ...(intervention)

MR LAX: These are informers in Lesotho.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There were not more than 20, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And how many of your informers were co-handled by either Jantjie or Jagga?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I have four that I recall.

MR LAX: So you had approximately 16 of your own informers that weren't handled by anyone else?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I did not say I had 20 informers.

MR LAX: I'm saying at best, you said not more than 20.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get if from you.  More-or-less how many?  Don't say more than 20.  More-or-less.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: This is quite a difficult question.  Well let me estimate.  There could have been 13.

MR LAX: And how many times in your average week did you go into Lesotho, to go and make contact with your informers, or try and recruit new informers?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Three or four days in a week, Sir, it was not every day.

MR LAX: And what was your cover in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Cover against what, Sir?

MR LAX: What was your legend ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You would not just get to the people and say you are a policeman.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I was using the name Koki.

MR LAX: And what the legend that you used?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I used to - at times I would say I was working for insurances.

MR LAX: And did you hang out in bars with Jagga and Jantjie as well?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: At times, yes.

MR LAX: Well you see, they were pretending to be criminals.

CHAIRPERSON: No, in fairness to the people they recruited later, like Betty Boom for instance, they pretended to be criminals who sought refuge in Lesotho.

MR LAX: You didn't know what their cover was?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Mike was known as Mike, Tony was still known as Tony.

MR LAX: You don't seem to understand this term "cover".  What was their legend?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not recall.

MR LAX: And did none of your informers ever tell you anything about Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Sir, not according to my recollection.

MR LAX: And did any of your informers ever tell you anything about Nomasonto?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Not to my knowledge.

MR LAX: And Tax?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: The same.

MR LAX: And KK?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't know who came with the information about KK.

MR LAX: Well you told us you first heard about him at a meeting.

MR KOOPEDI: That is correct, but who came up with the information until it got to the gentlemen who were working with me.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Koopedi, I've taken a lot of your time, I must apologise.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Perhaps flowing from the questions that come from the Panel, did I hear you correct to say that every information that you gathered in Lesotho you then reported it to your office?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That's how it used to work.

MR KOOPEDI: Now please clarify me here.  Would you just put in a report, that is particularly about your information, or would you discuss it with other members?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I want to clarify this for the Committee.  Every day the information gathered was supposed to be forwarded to them, because at that stage I was the junior member in that unit, I would not do things on my own.