Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-13

MS THABETE: In your own words, how do you, how would you say - the armed robberies that you committed, how would you say they were political?  In what way were they political?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: I did explain briefly in my application that we were attacked most of the time at Katlehong so that the youth were no longer going to school, the adults were not going to work as well and there was no money with which we could buy firearms.  So an order was issued to the fact that for us to be able to protect ourselves we should go and procure help to try and protect ourselves.

MS THABETE: Why couldn't you use your own cars, why did you need to rob other people's cars to go and fetch that material?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: We had been instructed to the effect that we should not, on fetching such materials we should use vehicles belonging to anyone of the SDU members, so avoid being arrested.

MS THABETE: In your supplementary affidavit on page 2 you talk about a gun that was confiscated by the police, where did you get this gun from?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: I did not have a firearm on this day, I had a toy gun.  But yes, we used to get our firearms from our commanders.  For example when we were patrolling in the evenings we would go and sign for the issuing or the reception of such firearms and we would take them back in the morning.  We used to use these firearms as well as ammunition for which we had to append our signatures.

MS THABETE: If you were not caught, what were you going to do with the car after you had collected the material?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: We would put the car at a place where it could be easily located by its owner.

MS THABETE: When your commander told you to go and rob the cars, did he explain to whether it was the policy of the ANC to do so?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: No.

MS THABETE: He did not explain?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: He did indicate that, or should I say it is not the policy of the ANC.

MS THABETE: And with regard to the bank robberies, did he explain whether it was the policy of the ANC to robe banks?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: That too was not the policy of the ANC.

MS THABETE: So what justification can you give for having proceeded to commit these acts even though they were not policies of the ANC?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: I would say that we robbed banks not following the ANC policies, but we knew that we were being attacked most of the time and we were trying that the commanders should confer with the ANC so that we can get assistance.
	At the time the ANC military wing had been banned or disbanded so that that structure could not be used and therefore the SDUs had to be set up so that the community could protect itself.  
	There were policies within the SDUs themselves and members knew that certain policies were broken under certain circumstances.

MS THABETE: With regard to the second robbery on the 7th of February 1992, is it correct that you actually did rob the bank?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Which bank was this?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Volkskas Bank in Heidelberg.

MS THABETE: How did you rob it?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: We were travelling in a vehicle.  I got off the vehicle, there were two of us in the vehicle, Boy Ndamane went to park the car at the door of the bank.  He went in first and I came in from behind and we took some money from the employees of the bank.  We out, got into the car and fled.

MS THABETE: Were there any people injured?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: According to what I heard in Court, one employee apparently went to see a doctor, apparently he or she was disturbed mentally, but no-one was hurt.

MS THABETE: So they weren't any shootings that occurred during this robbery?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: And when there was a chase between you and the policemen, were there any shootings that occurred?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: No.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, any questions?

MR MOTEPE: I don't have any questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOTEPE

ADV SIGODI: Where is comrade Manyala today?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: I was told that he passed away in the past few years.

ADV SIGODI: And comrade Dondolo?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: He too I heard is deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Simelane, are those leg irons you have on?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: May the question please be repeated.  Yes, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Will the prison authorities please remove that. Proceed.

ADV SIGODI: You say that you wanted to get his material to make home-made guns or weapons, do you know where these home-made weapons were going to be manufactured?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Yes, I know.

ADV SIGODI: Where were they going to be manufactured?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: At our centre point, our meeting place.

ADV SIGODI: And who was responsible for manufacturing the home-made weapons?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Katiwe was experienced, Katiwe and Khosikona Majola were the ones who were charged with the manufacturing of these.

ADV SIGODI: Were they charged and convicted, do you know?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: No, they were not arrested because our operation was not accomplished.

ADV SIGODI: I thought you said they were charge.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, a point of rectification, they were charged with the responsibility of manufacturing the weapons.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor?

DR TSOTSI: For which offences are you seeking amnesty?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: All the offences that I committed.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we aren't able to give you blanket amnesty, you've got to specify them to us, that is why the question was asked.

MS THABETE: May I come to his assistance there?  I believe he's referring to the offences that are mentioned in here.

CHAIRPERSON: Three robberies?

MS THABETE: Three robberies, that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Is he not applying for unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition?

MS THABETE: As he has already explained he didn't possess the guns actually, he only had a toy and he was only convicted for robberies, not for arms and ammunition.

DR TSOTSI: Yes, what I understand is that he was convicted for robbery in respect of the first robbery, what about the second robbery?  Wasn't there a subsequent conviction on two counts of robbery?  This one robbery, is it three robberies - I'm a bit confused, that he is seeking amnesty for?

MS THABETE: It is three robberies, two for the motor vehicles, the third one for the bank.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your sentence?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: 19 years prison.

CHAIRPERSON: How was that made up?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: May the question be repeated please.

CHAIRPERSON: How was that made up.  How did they get to 19 years.

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: For the first car theft offence I was given a sentence and for the second offence I was given 13 years and for this other offence I was sentenced as well and the total number of years amounted to 19.

CHAIRPERSON: No wait, what did you get for the first robbery of the motor vehicle?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: Six years.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second motor vehicle robbery?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: The vehicle as well as the bank robbery were combined and I was given 13 years for both.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, so the total came to 19.  And when did this sentence start?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: On the 21st of May 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: May?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: May 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the bank robbery successful?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: No, we did not succeed in robbing the bank.  We did not succeed, but we did manage to get hold of the money at the bank, but our vehicle broke down along the way and we were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: And the first motor vehicle that you robbed, what happened to that vehicle?

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: We were arrested on the scene of the crime.

CHAIRPERSON: The first robbery for which you got six years, you robbed a motor vehicle.

ZAKHELE SIMELANE: That's the one I'm referring to, Your Honour, we did not succeed, we were arrested on the scene of the crime.