Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-15

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: It was a serious problem that I had to discuss with the ANC because had I gone on my own to approach the deceased or to discuss with him the very same problem, if for instance we had ended up fighting with the deceased it would have been regarded as bad on my part not to inform the organisation of my movements.

MR PANDAY: So you needed to use the organisation to attend to the problem?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: It was not that I was going to use the organisation to solve my problems, I lied to inform the organisation on my problems even if they were not going to assist me in any way because if I did not inform them, if I was a person who did not inform them on my problems, they would not be there for me when I needed the assistance of the organisation.

MR PANDAY: But this was a personal problem, why did you have to inform the organisation?  You mentioned that the deceased was angry because you removed your brother as his herd man, but that's a personal problem, that's not political?  Why did you have to go to an organisation?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: What I can say is that if I'd been somebody else I could have even attacked him then and there when he uttered such words about my brother.  The reason that I went to inform the organisation was because I realised that should I do something it should be known by the organisation because it might lead to greater strife, it might lead to something bigger that might eventually involve organisations.

MR PANDAY: So if the organisation got involved this could have hid your personal grievance or your personal problem, would that be correct?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I went to discuss the matter with organisations so that I could also be advised on how to regard the matter.  I trust members of my organisation, I trusted and had faith in their opinions.  That is why I approached them not that I was actually doing that so that they would do something about it.  They would have assisted me in advising me on what to do about the problem.

MR PANDAY: Who did you speak to in the organisation?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I did not speak to one particular person because when the deceased came to my home and uttered these words I was in the company of other people so I did not call any one person aside but I just mentioned it in a meeting.

MR PANDAY: No you haven't answered my question, let's go through this again.  You went to the organisation for advice, that is correct?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Yes.

MR PANDAY: When did you go to the organisation for advice?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: That was after they deceased had said those words.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And then you were asked to whom did you speak and then you came with the story that you didn't speak to any person in particular but you went there for advice.  Who gave you that advice?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: It was not important who was going to do the advising but it would be anybody who had an opinion or who could offer advice.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You went there, to whom did you speak?  Who was the person you spoke to?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I would say the person who responded was Gangiso Vesi.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why couldn't you give us the answer in the first place?  Why beat about the bush?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I would apologise for that but the person did say something to me was Gangiso.

MR DEHAL: Right, sorry Sir, with respect, as I understand it, his version, his evidence is that he attended a meeting and he raised it generally at the meeting, he did not speak to anybody specific but that Mr Vesi responded.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Oh, you went to the ANC office to ask for advice and then he said no he spoke at his house when it was mentioned and didn't mention it to anybody in particular, that was a different occasion but then it was put to him "your evidence was that you went to the ANC to ask for advice?" and we only want to know who gave him that advice?

MR DEHAL: Then he says "I raised it at the meeting generally" and the Vesi answer is the person who responds at the meeting, not the person he speaks to at the meeting but that he raises it generally to all persons at the meeting.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Right carry on.

MR PANDAY: Now what advice did Gangiso Vesi give you?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Gangiso said I should not concentrate or forecast on what people say.  He said we maybe investigate or take a closer look at what that person says where it emanates from before we take any action.

MR PANDAY: Now your brother do you recall on which day he died?  What was the date?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: It would be difficult to recall the date because I have spent a lot of time here in prison so I do not remember a lot of things.

MR PANDAY: Let me re-ask you the question.  How long after your brother's death was the deceased murdered?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: It could be a week or two.

MR PANDAY: Now Gangiso said that we must effectually jump to conclusions, we must first look what people say before we do anything, is that correct?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now what other investigation did you conduct to establish how your brother died?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: It ended there, I did not do anything else but the deceased continued being involved in activities that indicated that he was a supporter of the IFP and he was involved in activities that harassed the ANC but we did not concentrate on my brother's death nor carry out an investigation.

MR PANDAY: How were you sure that the deceased used witchcraft in your brother's death?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I did not have any concrete proof except for what he said because I did not witness him giving my brother any muti.  The only thing that raised my suspicions was what he uttered.

MR PANDAY: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you go on, there's one issue I'd like to clear up, the problem arises, in the judgment as to your trial the judge says apparently quoting your evidence that you said people came to fetch you from your home to go to a meeting and you said you did not want to go because your brother had been run over the day before?  Is that correct?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I did mention that in court but it was not the truth because I was the person who was acting in politics, I'm the person who used to organise meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: But why lie to the court about when your brother was run over?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: That court was not trustworthy, I've got no trust then because they were an apartheid court even if I told the truth it did not matter.

CHAIRPERSON: The problem, gentlemen, is that my experience in the past, if prisoners do not arrive back at Westville Prison at a prescribed time they frequently find they don't get fed and there are other problems.  I don't think, I didn't see them getting any food here at lunchtime so I don't want us to be responsible for that again.  You'll be some time still with this witness won't you?  So if we sit an extra half an hour now it won't help us very much and I think we will now have to adjourn this matter till tomorrow morning.  What time gentlemen?

MR PANDAY: Half past nine is fine.

MR DEHAL: Whatever time suits you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: The purpose is to enable us to conclude this witness.  We will then go on to the other matters being heard by a different tribunal which will implicate the other people from Westville Prison so we can tomorrow clear up that side and we can then go back to this one.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I'm sorry, in the light of this I suggest that we start at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Right 9 o'clock.  Wait a bit, who is the senior Westville officer here?  Can you have them here at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning?  Good, we will adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  I'm obliged to you for that assistance.