Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR MHLABA: Yes we followed them, the group that was told to turn to the left.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened then?

MR MHLABA: The group in front of us proceeded to the left and we followed it.  It was on a certain street they took a turn, I will say it is the second street, they turned to the right, and we were following them.  There were some sounds of explosion and I didn't know from which direction they were coming from.

MR DORFLING: Can I just interpose here Mr Mhlaba.  Do you know the street names?

MR MHLABA: I don't know them.

MR DORFLING: Okay, you mentioned that the first group at the second street turned to their right, you followed them and then there was this sound of explosions, what do you mean by that?

MR MHLABA: Since we're behind them and we didn't take a turn we heard explosions but we didn't know where they were coming from, we were still far back.

MR DORFLING: If you say an explosion, is it like a bomb or something else?

MR MHLABA: The sound of guns or rifles.

MR DORFLING: Could you at that point in time determine from where these gunshots were coming?

MR MHLABA: As I said, I will not be in a position to explain as to where the sound was coming from because I was right inbetween the buildings.

MR DORFLING: You've mentioned that the first group turned right at the second street, did your group follow them?

MR MHLABA: Yes we also turned right and on the second street they turned and that's where we came to meet them to form one group.

MR DORFLING: I just want to make sure we understand you correctly, so as you were directed to go left at the station you proceeded over one street and at the second street the first group turned to their right, and your group followed them, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: And what happened then?

MR MHLABA: When we met them and form one group, as I've explained, we met them at that turn and we formed one group.

MR DORFLING: If you say "you met them at a turn", what do you mean?

MR MHLABA: As we're following each other and they were in front of us, we found them standing as we're coming from behind, so we met them there and we formed one group.

MR DORFLING: Mr Mhlaba I want you to explain, you said you found them and met with them at a turn, can you just explain that please?

MR MHLABA: When I say we met them in Zulu, as I've explained we were following each other, when someone come to a stop and you came to that place, it means we met, it means we are no longer following each other.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you briefly explain yourself.  I would like you to explain to me that at the time when you were still following each other, the other group was in front of you, was it at any stage did you ever went a different direction, took a different street, or were you walking on the same street?

MR MHLABA: We were on the same street but we were not close to each other.  I will say that we're about some few paces from each other but on the same street.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you say there was a time where you came to meet each other, did you mean that those in front came to a stop and they waited for you to arrive at the same spot?

MR MHLABA: Yes, they stopped for us so that we can meet and form one group to go together.

MR MHLABA: Was it not because you took different roads?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That was the clarification that was needed.

MR LAX: If I could just interpose for a second, you said you met them at a turn, and I understood Mr Dorfling to ask you, "what do you mean by at a turn"?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so, Mr Chair.

MR MHLABA: I didn't say we met at a turn, I said we took a turn on the second road or street and just before there's the intersection, they stop and waited for us.  So I would say that's an intersection, a four-way stop.

MR DORFLING: I'm indebted to the Committee members, thank you.
	What happened then?

MR MHLABA: We left as one group and there was Mr Mbatha as one of the marshals controlling the crowd, and that's where the shooting started.  It looked like they were inside the building.  They shot at us and we turned to run away.  When I turned to look back I saw one of my colleagues or my friend injured.

MR DORFLING: Can we just stop there for a moment Mr Mhlaba.  I would like you to go slowly and explain everything that you saw on that day.  Can we first just go back at the time when you were together at the intersection, the two groups.  Just before the shooting commenced, what were you doing?

MR MHLABA: We were shouting our Zulu - it's a tradition praise song, shouting in Zulu "amandla", ...[indistinct] as power to us.

JUDGE NGCOBO: No, no, Mr Interpreter, the witness was saying "uSotho", not "amandla".

MR DORFLING: With your leave Mr Chair I would ask the witness to get up from where he's standing and perhaps just give a description of the movement that was taking place at that point in time and the words that were uttered, with your leave.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: Can I perhaps ask the witness to come to the front somewhere here to just make it visible to all of us.
MR MHLABA DEMONSTRATES AS REQUESTED

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair, I'm indebted to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Witness describes a movement forward and with every two steps a short step backwards, but at each time he moved his right arm was raised above his shoulder when he repeated the words "Amandla Awetho" and the word "Usotho".

MR DORFLING: I'm indebted for that Mr Chair.  A further significant which I would perhaps like to place on record if the Committee is in agreement with that, is that the one foot is constantly leading, the one foot remains behind the other.  A step forward, either the left foot or the right foot leading at the time of the forward movement and it remains the same foot that's leading.

CHAIRPERSON: Any objection to that?

MR BERGER: There's no objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR DORFLING: What is the significance of this movement and these utterances Mr Mhlaba?  What does it mean?

MR MHLABA: It means that we, according to the Zulu tradition, when we are happy or celebrating to a function, it's always our tradition that we should do it step by step while shouting the praises.

MR DORFLING: I note that you say whilst shouting the praises, are the words you used actually praise words?

MR MHLABA: I'm not understanding, I'm not getting the full understanding of what you are saying.  I would like a clarification.

MR DORFLING: Yes, you mentioned that this is always the way we do things when we're shouting the praises, that's the way it was translated.  I'm trying to ask you or to convey to you that you should try and explain that to the Committee.  These praises you're referring to, are those the words you used, are those praise words?

MR MHLABA: I would say those are the words that we use to celebrate when we're celebrating.  When we are going to an Imbizo, a traditional meeting or whatever meeting called in the community to meet the King.

MR DORFLING: Are there words you uttered, are these words you uttered and the movements you made on that day any different from what you would do during other gatherings on behalf of ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Dorfling, just a minute.  Did you say that ...(no English translation)

MR MHLABA: ...(no English translation)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Ja okay, you said these words are the words that you normally use when you are to meet Zulu?

MR MHLABA: I mean when we're having meetings.

JUDGE NGCOBO: But not to meet the King?

MR MHLABA: I would say the meeting of the Zulus is when we're asked to meet the King or a Chief, we use the same words.  We always do it in the name of the King.