Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: We followed this bakkie and we made radio contact with the kombi, Wasserman and Du Preez to inform them that the vehicle was moving.  They drove in front and I am guessing, approximately 15 kilometres out of Manzini, we stopped.
	Actually we forced the bakkie in between the kombi and the vehicle that we were in, and the bakkie then came to a standstill so that the kombi could stop at the driver's side of the bakkie.  We stopped on the other side.
	Botha got out, the driver got out, the kombi's doors were opened.

MR VISSER: The lady was the transferred into the kombi?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did this coincide with force?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Not with unnecessary violence, we just took her, grabbed her and moved her from one vehicle to another.

MR VISSER: Her hands were tied?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Mr Chairperson, I was not there when her hands were tied, I remained in the vehicle with Taylor in the back, the vehicle that was at the back.

MR VISSER: What happened then?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: The three vehicles then went on to Big Bend, in the direction of Onverwacht border post, at the Hluti road.

MR VISSER: What happened then?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: On this road Botha and Ndwandwe got on the back of the bakkie and the drivers of the bakkie was Wasserman and Du Preez.   Yes, they drove in front.

MR VISSER: What was the weather like?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: It was rainy, wet, muddy.

MR VISSER: What happened then?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Taylor then took our vehicle and moved back.

MR VISSER: Where were you then?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I took over the kombi with the two informants.  Close to the Culel border post, I personally stopped and dropped off the two informants.  It was still in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: What was the idea behind this?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: In that they would cross the border on foot, and not go through the border post.
	Taylor moved onwards with his vehicle and I came behind him with the kombi.

MR VISSER: Did you leave Culel?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, we left Culel and left to the Onverwacht border post.

MR VISSER: Did you pick up the informants again?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, they had to find their own way back to the house where we were.

MR VISSER: That is at the Onverwacht border post?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: You and Taylor, what did you do then?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: We drove through Culel and we informed Steyn at Onverwacht at the house, that the operation was a success.

MR VISSER: Did you pick up Steyn?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, we picked up Steyn in the kombi.

MR VISSER: Where did you go then?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: We went to the planned place, near the border post, where we met Botha and Ndwandwe.

MR VISSER: Is that you, Steyn and Taylor?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: What happened there then, did Botha and Ndwandwe arrive there?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, they arrived there, we put her in the kombi and we went back home or to this house.

MR VISSER: What happened from there?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Wasserman and Du Preez stayed behind in Swaziland, it was too late for them to go through the border post, as it is general knowledge.
	I later heard that they stayed over in Manzini.  I was now in the house.

MR VISSER: With Ms Ndwandwe, what happened to her?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: She was interrogated by Botha.

MR VISSER: Did you interrogate with him?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, from time to time I did ask questions.

MR VISSER: Were you present there the whole time?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, I wasn't present there the whole time.

MR VISSER: What was your knowledge with regards to Ms Ndwandwe's position before you went in and crossed the border?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I was aware of the fact that the was acting Commander of the Natal machinery in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Were you aware of the plan concerning her?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: The plan was to recruit her as an informant, to get information from her, and to then apply her in that capacity or regard.

MR VISSER: And if that did not happen?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Well, then the only other option or alternative would be to place her back which would have been problematic or to eliminate her.

MR VISSER: What did you think would happen when you came to Swaziland with Ndwandwe, or when you went to Swaziland and met Ndwandwe, what did you think will happen?  I do not want to ask leading questions now, maybe we can just continue.
	What was the purpose of the interrogation?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: The interrogation was to recruit her as an informant for the Security Branch.

MR VISSER: Did it appear to you as if she was recruitable as an informant?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No Mr Chairperson, not at the times when I was present with the interrogation.

MR VISSER: You then spent the night there at the house?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: At the Onverwacht border post?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The next morning, I understood Wasserman and Du Preez arrived from Swaziland?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What did you do then?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: We once again agreed that she was not willing to work for the Security Branch and not to, or to prevent any people from seeing us in the house, we decided to drive to a farm in Pietermaritzburg, close to Elandskop.

MR VISSER: What was this farm called?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, I do not know what this farm's name was.  I just knew it was close to Elandskop station.

MR VISSER: Was the farm called Elandskop?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, not as far as I know.

MR VISSER: You are now at this house, that we refer to as the farm at Elandskop to easy refer to it, what happened there then?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Chairperson, Botha still continued with the interrogation in the house.

MR VISSER: Were you present?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, from time to time I was present.  She was not cuffed or tied or anything like that, she sat there freely and he was busy interrogating her.

MR VISSER: According to yourself, during this whole episode was she attacked?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, not at all.

MR VISSER: What was your summary concerning the possibility to recruit her as an informant, out of your own observation on that day on the farm?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: It became more and more clear to me that she would not be willing to work or cooperate as an informant.

MR VISSER: Why do you say that?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: After it became known to me that she admitted to acts like for example the death of Lieutenant Radjo and Zukela, she was proud of that and she boasted about this.

MR VISSER: You say this on page 99 in your application?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson, that was the impression that I got.  That is how she conveyed this to me.

MR VISSER: We know from Botha and Steyn that at one stage it became clear as you have testified, that she was not recruitable and that Steyn then gave the instruction that she must be eliminated?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Before this happened, can I just ask the following, can you remember when Botha left?  Was it before or after the elimination of Ndwandwe?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Mr Chairperson, as far as I know, it was before the elimination.

MR VISSER: Did anybody accompany him?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: At that stage Mr Chairperson, if I can just explain, there were two other people who interrogated Ndwandwe, Labuschagne and Verwey of Middelburg Security Branch, I met them at a certain place because they didn't know where the farm was, and I accompanied them to the farm.

MR VISSER: When we arrived there, was Botha still there?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, according to my knowledge Botha left.