Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-01

MR NKUMANDA: I met Kleintjie as I'd already explained, two weeks before the operation and he highlighted a problem that was existing within the APLA structures at that moment which was the shortage of weapons.  He told me that our soft targets our police stations and the policemen who were residing in the township and also the security cars that would be monitored by the policemen in the township.
	Should I be involved in an operation or rather I was involved in this operation because he had highlighted that the security vehicles that would move in the township were part of our soft targets thus I played a role in this operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: This incident that happened at Korsten Cash 'n Carry if I'm not mistaken, can you tell the Committee about your role, who gave you the orders, how did you go about executing those orders?

MR NKUMANDA: Pardon me, Mr Chairman, I didn't hear the question properly?
	In October I met Kleintjie who sent me to the Transkei to go and collect two AK-47 rifles and pistols because there was a shortage of weapons.  I came back and handed over those weapons to him.  He told me that there is an operation that's supposed to be carried out which was an operation of repossession and he told that it was in Korsten and he gave me all the details about the operation and where it was.  There was a financial shortage and there were some things that were supposed to be bought.  I had to reconnoitre the area as part of procedure.  I did that for plus minus two weeks because I had to give a report, I did this in the mornings and in the afternoons twice a day.  I would monitor who opens the business in the mornings and I'll also check them late in the evening when they close.  I would give him the report of that reconnaissance daily.  He approved because that's exactly used to happen according to his knowledge.  A day before the operation he arrived at my new residential area which was in Sewu.  He arrived in the evening with three revolvers and he told me that he trusts me and he'll leave everything in my hands and he hugged me as usual and he left.
	I went to Changane to check the other combatants because that's where they stayed.  I told them that we had to meet in the morning.  I awoke up the following morning, it was Msinga who woke me up.  He was driving a car.  We left for Changane section from Sewu.  We found those gentlemen in Changane section and gave them a gun each and I told them that they must wait for Msinati because we're still going, proceeding to Motherwell.  I told them that I trust them, they must not let me down and I hugged them and we left with Msinati.  We were going to Motherwell.  We were going to take another repossessed car.  I took that car and drove to Boston and Msinati went back to pick up the other gentleman.  On my arrival at Korsten I parked the car and I went into a nearby shopping complex and bought myself a cooldrink.  On my way out I spoke to them.  I was talking in a way that no one could notice I was talking to them.

INTERPRETER: He is referring to his co-accused, that's the people that he was talking to.

MR NKUMANDA: The other combatants, that was Zozo, Impampi and Begas.  I told them that you will enter and you'll find me in the car whilst you're finished.  I went and waited in the car.  After a few minutes they emerged running, carrying a bag of money, carrying the firearms, I went into the car and I asked them if everything went well.  They confirmed that and I drove off.  I noticed that there was a male person who was peering from upstairs because I noticed that I didn't actually tie that person up.  Two police vans came from Stanford Road and thus I decided to take an alternate route which Governdale.  I proceeded with Governdale Road until I got into a cul-de-sac and I realised that I had to drop this car, leave it because I had estimated that by now these people must have alerted the police.  When we got off we saw another car that was parked there which was a white van.  The driver was alighting the van.  I ordered Begus to point this gentleman with a firearm and we should take the car.  The driver of the car gave us the car keys and Impampi drove.  We drove down Governdale in the direction of Algoa Park.  We drove into another cul-de-sac again and we had to dump this car and we proceeded on feet running.  There were cars and taxis that were giving chase at that time and the traffic officers as well.  We ran in the direction of Algoa Park and we were crossing the veld and the people were also pursuing on foot as well.  I told the soldiers to start firing because these people were nearing, they were going to catch up with us.  They did that, they fired.  We left until we got to a swimming pool but just before that there was a helicopter in the vicinity already and many police vehicles.  We got into the swimming pool and the others hid to cover.  I just only went as far as the entrance.  I heard some firing after some time.  We were taken into a car, a car by the policemen who had arrested us, there were dogs as well.   That is how I was arrested.  Zozo, he was being carried in a stretcher by the police, he was dead.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what happened to the other two guys, Impambi and Begus?

MR NKUMANDA: After our arrest we were sent to the St Albans Prison.  Zozo was shot dead on the spot.  We appeared in court and we were sentenced.  I was sentenced eight years and two years suspended and they were also sentenced as well but they  have been released already.  I am still serving the sentence of the second operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Chairperson at this stage, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Nkumanda, where were you trained?

MR NKUMANDA: In the Transkei.

MR MAPOMA: Where?

MR NKUMANDA: In Tendani, the place is called Utafalofefe.

MR MAPOMA: And who was training you there?

MR NKUMANDA: We were trained by Jones.

MR MAPOMA: Who is Jones?

MR NKUMANDA: I would not know but he was just called Jones.

MR MAPOMA: Was he your commander?

MR NKUMANDA: He was our instructor in the training session.

MR MAPOMA: I suppose you were given political training as well, training on political lessons as well, am I correct?

MR NKUMANDA: That is correct, sir.

MR MAPOMA: And during those lessons targets were identified to you?

MR NKUMANDA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Was it part of the targets or was it part of the operations, robbery, with a view to getting money?

MR NKUMANDA: That is correct, sir.

MR MAPOMA: And where was Kleintjie during the time when we were trained?

MR NKUMANDA: He was not there, I only met when I arrived in Port Elizabeth.

MR MAPOMA: Where is Kleintjie's home?

MR NKUMANDA: I do not know, sir.

MR MAPOMA: Where was he residing?

MR NKUMANDA: We would normally meet in Agrie but I first met him in Soweto.  I would not say that he was staying in Soweto but we met for the second time in Agrie, he's the one who would normally come to me most of the time.

MR MAPOMA: Which Soweto are you talking about, the Transvaal Soweto?

MR NKUMANDA: The Soweto here in Port Elizabeth.

MR MAPOMA: What are Kleintjie's full names?

MR NKUMANDA: I knew him as Jabu Kleintjie.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, sorry, just for the benefit of the Committee, on my investigation of the name Kleintjie, the only Kleintjie that we could get was Tabiso Makwala was from Bloemfontein.  He passed away in prison last year, he was in jail, he was also an amnesty applicant at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the closest we can get?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO