Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

MR BLACK: Now, in terms of this, I just want to clarify certain issues, so we don't waste time, in terms of this charge sheet, you were charged with eight counts, that's attempted murder, murder and then two counts of unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition, and then there was a, count No 5 is another murder, and similar unlawful possession, and No 8 was another murder.  Now, we've gone through the record together, you recall that?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes, I do.

MR BLACK: I just want you to explain to this committee, as far as count No 8 is concerned, if you page to page 195, was that charge withdrawn?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: On the month that I was convicted, I was told that there was insufficient evidence with regard to that charge, so it was withdrawn.

MR BLACK: Now, you were convicted of charges 1, 2, 3 and 4, that's the attempted murder, that's the attempted murder and murder, both of which relate to the shooting, initial shooting of Obed and the subsequent killing of Obed, and then two charges of unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition, is that correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Now, the evidence which you gave to the Court at the trial, effectively you pleaded not guilty and you relied upon what they call an alibi evidence, do you remember, you say you weren't there, you were somewhere else with friends?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Now that evidence which you gave, and which was rejected by the trial judge, was that evidence true or false?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That was false.

MR BLACK: And what you are telling the committee today, is this the true version of what happened and how it came about that Obed was killed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct, I'm telling the truth now, I wasn't telling the truth then.

MR BLACK: Could you tell the committee why you did not tell the truth then, what motivated you?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It's because I was well aware that all the charges against me were not true, they were false, they were trying to actually press them on me, the police as well as members of the Black Cat, wanted me to be found guilty, that is why I could not speak the truth at the court of law.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you're not guilty, but you were erroneously found guilty?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Chairperson, what I mean to say is that what made me to tell lies in court was for the fact that I knew that the complainants had submitted false statements, even though the basis of the charges was true, but they added some information that was not true in order to press me down, or to get me convicted, but today I have come before this committee to tell the truth about all that happened.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did commit the murder and attempted murder, and you were in possession of an illegal firearm, together with the ammunition?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BLACK: Could you also tell, what was your experience of the police and the security after they had taken - what did you - what was your personal experiences, what did you think they could do?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Immediately after having given evidence before the Goldstone Commission, I had a problem with the police as well as the security police.   As a result there were a lot of incidents whereby police were involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, of what relevance is that?

MR BLACK: Ask him further, did this have any influence on your attitude towards the courts and the police?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I didn't have a problem with the police initially, but at a later stage we had a problem, I had a problem with them.

MR BLACK: Okay, obviously there's a misunderstanding, he's not - right, I have no further evidence, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khaba what was the purpose of your being trained?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When we first left for Makusa, we were told that we were going to be trained so that when we came back to the area, we would be able to protect ourselves from members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it turn out to be like that?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Not at all, things were different when we came back.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did it turn out to be, what did you use your training for?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That's when I realised that I had to pull myself out, because I realised now that we were getting involved in criminal activities and killing innocent people.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of the Black Cat?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was controlling the Black Cats?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It was Dumisane as well as Chris Ngwenya.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they the bosses of the Black Cats?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct, they were the leaders.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they being led by anybody else, or did they make the decisions?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: There was a time when they would meet with the municipal office workers, as well as the police, and they would report back to us that they had had a meeting with the police or the members of the municipality.

CHAIRPERSON: Would they say what this meeting was for and what was decided there?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I think I would give you an example.   At one stage when the office, that is Mr Ngwenya's office, was burnt down, who was a member of the ANC, the police arrived at the office, that was Sergeant Botha and Warrant Officer Van Zyl, they spoke with Chris with regard to the burning down of the office, they even gave him money to buy petrol in order that Mr Ngwenya's office could be burnt down.

CHAIRPERSON: You were present when that was discussed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: The police that interfered with you later, after you testified, did you know them?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you come into contact with any of them as a member of the Black Cat?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They weren't pleased that you're giving evidence at the Goldstone Commission, or why did they then interfere with you?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It's because the things that I gave evidence about at the Goldstone Commission affected them directly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, I must apologise, I'm not very well.  Could I have five minutes, I won't be longer than five minutes?   Thanks.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ADV SANDI: Can you just explain a few things here concerning your military, your training, maybe I should not call it military training, what was this training on, were you trained with arms, what kind of, can you tell us more about this training?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: The use of firearms, as well as hand grenades.

ADV SANDI: What kind of firearms were those?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: We were trained to use G3, 9mm, as well as palm guns, AK-47's as well.

ADV SANDI: Who was giving the training?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It was Dalekolo Lotoli, Peter Msame, as well as Sugar None Israel Shilwane.

ADV SANDI: How long did this training take?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I think it was six months.

ADV SANDI: Were you given any political lectures as part of this physical training?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Who was giving the political lectures?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: J Flute Enthetwa.

ADV SANDI: What was the content of these lectures, what was being said during the lectures?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: He lectured us with regard to the then situation, but he was very negative, he was actually against the ANC, and as we were under the wing of Inkatha, we had to be fully fledged members of Inkatha, and he also lectured us on leaving the party for another.

ADV SANDI: Were you the only one who came from Ermelo to attend this training?