Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I think it was done on behalf of the government at that time.

MR DILIZO: With regard to the utterances uttered by the (...indistinct) Matanzima what did you make out concerning the death of Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can say he was happy about that. Because I want to say perhaps these governments they were meeting each other because the way he was talking, the manner in which he was talking I think he was happy for that. And he was happy because of the death of the terrorist.

MR DILIZO: (...indistinct) perhaps the government on top like the former State President was aware and appreciating any killing of a terrorist in Transkei without you being aware perhaps of being used?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir. I can say perhaps he was aware although we were not aware of that.

MR DILIZO: Now with regard to the question of cover-ups who would add the unknown or false information or deduct the correct information from the statements you have made? Do you know.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I am not in a position to say so. But all I can say even in this document there is a statement, Shabalala's statement that was made and his legal representative said he is going to deny that he made this statement because he didn't sign the statement saying that he doesn't know anything about that statement.

MR DILIZO: Would you be a party to the change or alteration to the contents of the statement you had initially made or not a party?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DILIZO: So now when subsequently finding an already typed statement with some information which is not within your knowledge would you sign that statement or would you query it?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I wouldn't query it Sir because they said they were trying to destroy the case about some of the information.

MR DILIZO: You mean you would sign the statement even if the contents thereof are not the correct version?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

MR DILIZO: As a person who was attached to the security and also involved in the underground unit, what was terrorism? Was it a criminal offence or not in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was not a criminal offence. In the sense that I take as if a person who leaves the country with the aim of acquiring some training at the same time that becomes and offence. That becomes an offence immediately.

MR DILIZO: I thought you say it was not an offence - terrorism per se was not an offence.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I am saying terrorism. Once a person leaves the country with the aim of getting some training that becomes an offence.

MR DILIZO: Do you mean not a criminal offence?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Not a criminal offence.

MR DILIZO: What do you mean political offence or what?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Political offence.

MR DILIZO: You mean a mere going out of the country with the intentions of training is in itself an offence?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes it is a political offence.

MR DILIZO: And therefore that person is automatically termed a terrorist?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

MR DILIZO: You were also questioned about the question of the tinted windows in the kombi that you were using. That the fact that it was so tinted was intended to abduct not to arrest. What was the policy or procedure concerning the use of such tinted windows in Transkei by the security police? Do you know?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can say they wanted to make sure they were doing that for if there is some one who is arrested especially terrorists their intention they didn't want the people to see that one terrorist is arrested so that they can go on telling the others.

MR DILIZO: So do you therefore mean that there was nothing sinister about using the tinted windows during the execution of your duties as security people?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't see anything sinister in that.

MR DILIZO: For instance you were questioned on that is Mr Chairman on page 18 of the bundle. You were questioned about the knife and the handcuffs which were in possession of Shosha which is contained there but you said you have not seen it. How come that it could be in your statement and yet you have not seen that yourself?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As I have already mentioned that this statement was only made for the cover-up the knife and the handcuffs I didn't see. I take it as part of the cover-up.

MR DILIZO: Mr Chairman on page 39 of the bundle. That is the then (...indistinct) statement, the handwritten statement. Whose handwriting is this Mr Dandala? It starts on page 29 up to 40. Whose handwriting is that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is Inspector Jordaan's handwriting.

MR DILIZO: So it is not your handwriting?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DILIZO: Do you know why being an inspector did not make this out of your own handwriting?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I don't have any knowledge about that.

MR DILIZO: That is all Mr Chairman with my re-examination.

MR DILIZO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Dilizo. I suppose Mr Hugo and Mr Knight would you have any questions for re-examination?

MR HUGO: I have no questions thank you Mr Chair.

MR KNIGHT: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chair can I ask these two questions to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Mr Dandala you have said repeatedly that Colonel Booi was your superior concerning this operation?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He was my superior.

MR DUKADA: And he was also in charge of the underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

MR DUKADA: I have gone through the entire year of documents in this matter but Colonel Booi never made a statement at all.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: You mean he didn't make a statement.

MR DUKADA: Yes.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know Sir.

MR DUKADA: Do you know if he made any statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Please repeat that question?

MR DUKADA: Do you know if Colonel Booi made a statement after the death of Batandwa Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I don't know Sir.

MR DUKADA: And Mr Dandala do you agree with me that the cover-ups you have constantly been referring to are extremely important. The idea was to conceal the truth?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

MR DUKADA: And do you also agree with me that it was imperative on you to mention in your supporting affidavit for the application all those cover-ups?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Sir in my affidavit initially there was nothing about the TRC. We were just preparing for the court. In the affidavit I am saying what happened exactly.

MR DUKADA: Yes but I am saying to you Mr Dandala don't you think it was imperative for the purposes of your present application to mention all those cover-ups in your supporting affidavits?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask him that question yesterday and I think he answered it? ...(inaudible) dealing with matters that may have arisen not matters that have been dealt with already.

MR DUKADA: I take your point Mr Chairman. The last question I have to the witness. Mr Dandala did you tell your legal representatives that you made cover-ups?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: According to this statement he also asked why was it done in this manner I told him that it was done to destroy the case.

MR DUKADA: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR DUKADA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir just one question. Lieutenant Geleli is he the one to whom you reported the incident in Nxala after (...indistinct)

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Is he the one who was the investigating officer of the criminal case about the murder of Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know who investigated the case.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not know who was the investigating officer in relation to?