Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The Security Police told me that they would take everything away from my Mom and Dad, meaning the house that they had worked so hard for.

MR DEHAL: And as regards your son?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: They told me they would kill my son if I did not do what they wanted me to do.

MR DEHAL: And your son's mother?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: And my son's mother, they would kill her as well.

MR DEHAL: Is this the only child you had at the time?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  If I may take you to the Klein incident.  Klein as a target, was that chosen by you or McBride?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was chosen by me.

MR DEHAL: What was McBride's instructions to you on incidents of this nature?  Was it a general set of instructions on collaborators, Labour Party members?  Was he specific about different people?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: He never specified who we must attack.  He gave me a few names of people and police collaborators, like Mr July, Mr Pearce, Mr Klein, and I chose Mr Klein.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, that's the evidence, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dehal.  Ms Kooverjee?

MS KOOVERJEE: No questions, Sir, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS KOOVERJEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard - sorry, Mr Prior.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, sorry.  We've agreed that I go before Mr Richard, I have a few general questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Prior.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr
Chairman.
	Mr Lecordier, the Fairvale Unit was in existence, or you were part of the Fairvale Unit before you were drafted into Special Ops, or were you never drafted into Special Ops?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I was recruited into Special Ops.

UNKNOWN: But you were first part of the Fairvale Unit?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: Did you perpetrate the attack on Mr and Mrs Klein as part of the Fairvale Unit or part of Special Ops?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: As part of Special Ops.

UNKNOWN: And how long had you been with Special Ops before you decided that Klein was a legitimate target?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think if I remember correctly, it was about a month before the Klein incident that I was recruited into Special Ops.

UNKNOWN: And is it clear from your statement you wished to kill Mr and Mrs Klein by throwing grenades into the bedroom?  That was your intention.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, it was.

UNKNOWN: To kill both of them.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: To kill Mr Klein, yes.

UNKNOWN: And Mrs Klein.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Well I accepted it as she would be a justifiable victim caught in the crossfire.

UNKNOWN: I don't want to go over to Mr Richard's cross-examination, I'll leave that there.
	When you were arrested by the members of the Security Police, was that more-or-less at the same time as your other comrades?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'm not sure on that because I didn't know they were arrested.

UNKNOWN: And did you at first deny all knowledge of what they were saying?  Well, just tell us what the position was.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I did deny it at first.

UNKNOWN: And then did they start torturing and assaulting you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did they suggest to you that you should turn as State witness against ...

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.  I wouldn't say suggest, I would say I was forced.

UNKNOWN: And that was as a result of the treatment you received?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: Now I have understanding as to your predicament, you were obviously - you were being held under Section 29, is that correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Prior.
	When you were giving evidence as a State witness at these trials you've referred to, were you still a Section 29 detainee or were you released?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I was not released, Mr Chairman, I was still detained at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were in custody the whole time during the course of both those trials, I think three trials weren't there?  Where you testified, the three trials.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Mr Prior.

UNKNOWN: I'm particularly concerned about the run-up to your giving evidence.  It seems that you were never in a situation that you could either report your treatment at the hands of the police to anyone in partial, like a magistrate or a judge or some other independent body.  Is that the position?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The thing is, what you're asking me is who was I supposed to report this to.

UNKNOWN: Well, were you ever visited by a judge or a magistrate whilst in custody?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Not that I recall.

UNKNOWN: And at the trial ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: If they did come, you would have remembered it surely.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I would have.

UNKNOWN: Before you testified against Mr McBride, you had been assaulted, you had been treated as you've described, in addition to that the life of your child and his mother and your parents had also been threatened.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: During the trial you indicated that at various adjournments or intervals, the prosecutors and the members of the Security Police would visit you and show you statements that you had made, or a statement that you had made to, that you would go over in order not to forget.  Was that done within the precincts of the Court itself?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, it was done in the Court building.

UNKNOWN: Can you recall who the prosecutors were, the State prosecutors?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think it was Mr Shope(?), Mr de Wet, I'm not sure on the third name.

UNKNOWN: Were they the counsel that were representing the State at Mr McBride's trial?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: From the record I think there's reference to a Mr Slabbert SC.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: Is it your evidence that during various intervals these three persons ...  Was it at the same time or at various times?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: At different times.

UNKNOWN: ... whilst you were giving evidence, caused you to refresh your memory or to refer to your statement that you had made to the police?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The thing is you say whilst I was giving evidence.  There were adjournments and this is when this took place.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Yes, I mean you were giving evidence then the matter would be adjourned and during those intervals you were approached, as your evidence indicated, by State prosecutors as well as members of the Security Police.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: And there they would at those occasions, impress upon you the need for you to adhere to the statement that you had given to the Security Police before you had started your evidence.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever complain to, for example, Mr Slabbert, who was the leader?  Obviously, the leader of the prosecution.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not complain.

UNKNOWN: Are you able to recall any of the Security Police that attended those particular meetings whilst you were giving evidence, in order for you to adhere to your statement?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The thing is it was such a long time ago, I can't recall it.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but are there any names that stick out?  For example, the investigating officer must be known to you.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think it was de Beer ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Was he there, for example?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: ... and Adendorf.

UNKNOWN: Are those two names that ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Those were the ones that were always working close with me.

UNKNOWN: And were they present on those occasions where you ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: On some of these occasions, yes.

UNKNOWN: Now I see from the record there was some stage where there was almost a trial within a trial, because you had referred to a statement and it turned out that it was a statement that you had prepared yourself to assist yourself, in other words it was your own notes.  Is that correct?