Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr da Silva wants to find out - and if you know you will tell us and if you don't, say so, you talked about the Vaal Commando motor vehicles.   Now what he wants to find out is, the Vaal Commando motor vehicles that you saw, what colours did they have, did they have one colour or did they have many colours, can you remember?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not recall very well, but after the attack I saw those vehicles and they were yellow in colour.

CHAIRPERSON: And before the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not see them before the attack.

MR DA SILVA: During the attack or immediately after the attack, did you ever see Vaal Commando vehicles which are yellow?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, I put it to you that you're mistaken, the Vaal Commando has never used Casspirs.  Can you make any comment in that regard?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not want to commit myself with regards to the colour.

MR DA SILVA: Now I'm ...(indistinct) the make of the vehicles, I'm putting it to you that they have never used a Casspir.

MR LAX: Mr da Silva, when did he say Vaal Commando used Casspirs?  If you can refer me to that bit in his evidence I'd be grateful, because I've read my notes of his previous evidence, the piece you've been referring him to, there's no mention there that he ever said Vaal Commando used Casspirs.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman through you, Mr Lax I want to clarify this aspect, because he was speaking about Casspirs and in the next breath he spoke about
" Vaal Commando have a yellow colour"
So I just want to clarify and put it to the witness that there's no misinterpretation in this regard, that the Vaal Commando never used Casspirs.  And if the witness can't help us in that regard, then I accept that, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Ja, there's just a difference between putting to him that he said it and clarify whether that is in fact what he means.

MR DA SILVA: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.
	Can you dispute, Mr Baloyi, or can I ask you this; have you ever seen the Vaal Commando using Casspirs?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know about that, whether they use Casspirs or not.  I don not know.

MR DA SILVA: Okay and then I want to put it to you, Mr Baloyi, that the Vaal Commando used their armoured vehicles.  There's a vehicle called the "Buffel" and it's brown in colour.  Can you give any comment in that regard?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am grateful for that information, but it is something that I would not keep on my mind.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, when you looked at Frikkie Meyer ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, I have a note here which says
"Vaal Commando was yellow"

MR DA SILVA: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I was just drawing to your attention that I do have a note which says
"Vaal Commando was yellow"
... the motor vehicles.  He did say that.

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Baloyi, you testified that you saw two military vehicles on Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.  I want to put it to you that you are mistaken, that at different stages there was only one vehicle there, there were never two vehicles together.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I know that is what you're going to say, but I saw two vehicles parked there.  I have already told you that there were two vehicles.  I think I've told you three times already.

MR DA SILVA: Okay.  Then the last question that I want to put to you, Mr Baloyi, you indicated that while the attackers were leaving the township, that you saw the two Koyocos and an Nyala in Nobel Boulevard.  I want to put it to you that a military vehicle moved down Nobel Boulevard and they never saw police vehicles.  Have you got any comment in that regard? - at the stage when the attackers were leaving the township.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know about that.  I saw the vehicles that I've just mentioned.  I don't know where they headed or what was happening, but I saw them parked there.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr da Silva.  Yes, Mr Botha?

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Baloyi, only three aspects that I want to take up with you and I'm going to be very brief.  I'm not clear on the Koyoco that you saw in front of your house on this particular night, especially on the colour.  Did you see what the colour was or didn't you see what the colour was?  Did you see and you don't want to tell us?  Did you see or didn't you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't want to commit myself to colours.  I really don't want to commit myself to colours.

MR BOTHA: Sir, all that I'm asking you is, did you see what the colour was or didn't you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not see it, only the shape and that it is a Koyoco.

MR BOTHA: Sir, how did you see what the colour of the people were that were inside of it?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There was a movement of people inside.  I could see the movement of the people inside, but I could not make out as to whether they were white or black police.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: So you can't say that the people inside the Casspir were indeed white people?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No.  The ones that I saw were the ones who were sitting in front, those were whites.

MR BOTHA: Sir, but if you could see their colour, definitely you would have seen the colour of the Koyoco as well.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Botha, we've gone through this I don't know how many times.  His evidence is there.  I don't think the matter can be taken any further.  He could see people moving inside the Koyoco, but what he is certain about is that the people who were in front were white, he noticed them.  He didn't see what the colour was.  We know from his evidence that at a later stage a Koyoco came back to the township, it had a white and a black, that we know.

MR BOTHA: As you please, Mr Chairman, I'll leave it then for argument.
	You say that people fired teargas at some of the victims, is that correct?

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) incident earlier in the day, when the police apparently came into the township and chased the comrades away.  He put that at round about 4 to 6 o'clock, somewhere round about there.

MR BOTHA: Indeed, Sir.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR BOTHA: At that stage you say the police fired teargas at the people?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR BOTHA: How did they fire it?  What was the procedure, was it canisters they used or did they fire it with the rifles?

CHAIRPERSON: Just before he answers the question, may I remind you, Mr Botha, that you represent Mr Peens, is that right?

MR BOTHA: Indeed Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And Mr Peens only, is it?

MR BOTHA: Yes, only Mr Peens, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mey represents Tshaka and Greef.  Alright.  This witness has not said anything about Mr Peens.

MR BOTHA: Indeed Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless you want to do as Mr da Silva has done, lay a foundation in order to put your version or dispute some of what he has said, based on the instructions that you have from Mr Peens.

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, this aspect of the teargas was a second aspect of my cross-examination.  It's not that relevant, except that regarding his credibility.  The last is identity on Peens, Greef and Tshaka and I'll move onto that point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but if - you are here primarily because your client has been implicated, in particular by Mr Nosenga.  That is why you are here.  So if a witness does not implicate you, that does not give you the licence to cross-examine any witness unless you have a version that you want to put to the witness, which is inconsistent with what the witness has said.  His credibility has nothing to do with Mr Peens.  Whether we believe this witness or don't believe this witness, has nothing to do with Mr Peens.