Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-09

MR LAX: So the question then goes, if the police were in the area and that was the reason why you were unable to carry out your attack to retaliate for this killing of your leader, therefore there was no violence in that intervening period, is that correct or isn't it?  A simple yes or no would suffice.

N D NTANZI: Attacks would be carried out at night because even that chairperson was killed at night.

MR LAX: Then why did it take you so long to revenge the attack of the killing of your leader, if you could have done so at night?

N D NTANZI: We wanted to get the perfect opportunity.

MR LAX: But you see you did kill him at night.  So if it was possible to attack at night, why didn't you do so earlier, why did you wait a whole month before you did it?  That's really the question.

N D NTANZI: There was violence in the area and we as IFP members were protecting ourselves.

MR LAX: But you see, you weren't even in the area, you've told us you went and you left the area to another place and you came back every so often, once or twice, so how come you could have been in the area and know exactly what was going on there?  You've got to make up your mind now, you can't have it every way.

N D NTANZI: I would sometimes come to check on my mother because of the violence in the area.

MR LAX: Sorry, I interrupted your question, can I carry on, just one issue if I may?
	You've told us that up to 20 people were sometimes at your brother's house, at your home there, correct?

N D NTANZI: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now I want you to try and tell us, how many were there on that night, how many people did you see running away on that night?

N D NTANZI: It was dark and there was no moonlight and no electricity, so it was dark.

MR LAX: Well then how did you see them running away?

N D NTANZI: We heard the rustling of trees and leaves when they were running away.

MR LAX: So you don't know whether it was just the wind blowing or what, you don't know whether it was ghosts or people?

N D NTANZI: It was people because we could see the shadows.

MR LAX: How many shadows did you see, 5, 19, 15, 20?

N D NTANZI: I would not be able to give you a figure because when they fled, they fled in different directions and we carried out that act quickly and fled.

MR LAX: Now you also said to us in your evidence that once they had fled, your brother went inside and closed the door.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he said he went inside, he said he closed the door, you kept on saying he went inside.

MR LAX: Okay.  Well maybe you can clarify that for us.  Was your brother standing in the doorway, was he inside, what was your brother doing while you were approaching?

N D NTANZI: If I'm not mistaken he was inside the house because there were some people also inside, and when these people fled I knocked and the door and he opened the door and Nkosinati Ngwenya shot him.

MR LAX: You see, what puzzles me is if his comrades had just run away out of terror on your approach, why would he just have opened the door?

N D NTANZI: He heard my voice.

MR LAX: But you just said that you and he were on bad terms, you didn't see eye to eye, and if his comrades had run away he would have been worried about who was coming here to attack.

N D NTANZI: I managed to trap him to open the door and he did open the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you see, I have the same problem, that for some reason or another this group of people, some of whom were inside the house, some of whom were outside the house, fled into the dark when the three of you came walking up also in the dark with no moonlight, no electricity, they must have been terrified to do this, weren't they?

N D NTANZI: It could be so because when a person approaches you unexpectedly, you cannot just stand and watch and see what he is going to do to you, you think of fleeing because you don't know what that person is armed with.

CHAIRPERSON: And they ran away and they fired shots?

N D NTANZI: I think they were just trying to frighten us because they fired these shots as they were fleeing.

CHAIRPERSON: But you weren't frightened, you went up to the door and knocked on the door and your brother wasn't frightened by the noise and the shouts, he opened the door for you, is that what you are telling us?

N D NTANZI: I managed to actually convince him to open the door.  Neo Zinjama was standing guard, just on the lookout of who would approach.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't know how many people might have still remained in the room, you didn't know that they had all run away, did you?

N D NTANZI: We did not know how many people were inside and we did not know how many had fled.

CHAIRPERSON: So there may have been dangerous ANC killers inside the room and you stood outside and knocked on the door.

N D NTANZI: It would have been possible but we did not see them.

MR LAX: Just one last aspect, Chairperson, and that is this.
	You were an assistant youth leader, you've told us that and it's in your form?

N D NTANZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Your leader had already been shot a month earlier than that?

N D NTANZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Didn't that make you the leader?

N D NTANZI: No, there was still going to be a meeting to discuss who would be appointed, whether I would step into his shoes and become the chairperson or maybe somebody else would be elected.  We were still going to discuss that.

MR LAX: Yes, but until such time as somebody is elected, isn't it normal practice that the assistant takes over until such time as someone is ...  That's the whole purpose of having an assistant, is that you have someone who can take over when something happens to the leader, isn't that so?

N D NTANZI: That is correct, but I requested from them that somebody else be elected because my problems, I was attending school.  I requested that they elect somebody else and that matter was still going to be discussed.

MR LAX: You see if you were in fact the leader then what you've told us previously and what Ngwenya says, that you suggested that your brother be killed, is very very probable, it all fits together neatly.  Do you understand?

N D NTANZI: I concurred with Neo Zinjama when he suggested that we should kill my brother.

MR LAX: But you see Ngwenya says you suggested that.

N D NTANZI: I concurred with the suggestion that he should be killed.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what was put to you was that it was you who made the suggestion, that is what Ngwenya said.  What do you have to say about that?

N D NTANZI: I also contributed that he should be killed because he was a problem.

ADV SIGODI: Were you armed when you went to kill your brother, you?

N D NTANZI: I had a home-made firearm but I did not use it.

ADV SIGODI: And who else was armed?

N D NTANZI: Nkosinati Ngwenya and Neo Zinjama.

ADV SIGODI: What did they have?

N D NTANZI: With home-made firearms.

ADV SIGODI: All three of you?

N D NTANZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And where did you get these home-made firearms?

N D NTANZI: I had actually borrowed the one I had from the group at Luthuli's house.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that the other applicant is sitting next to you and they're now going to change places?

MR SAMUEL: No, Mr Chairman, the second applicant is seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I'm sorry.

MR LAX: You're not going to lead - you're going to lead your next applicant now?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We have in the past permitted people from the floor to ask questions if they are interested parties, but I think it would be better after we have concluded the evidence of both applicants.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Ntanzi, will you change places with Mr Ngwenya?
WITNESS EXCUSED