Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-17

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know that the police found human parts in small bottles in the house?  Do you know anything about that?

MR TSHABALALA: No. I don't know anything about that.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't you hear evidence in the court where it was said that the police searched the house and they found parts of a human body in small bottles and in a bowl in the kitchen?  Didn't you hear that at the hearing?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did hear of such in court, but we didn't do such a thing.

ADV SANDI: Who was responsible for cutting the various part of the body?

MR TSHABALALA: Pilane Mutshiako.

ADV SANDI: Was he the only one who did that?

MR TSHABALALA: The three of us were present, but he's the one who did this, then I will say all of us did that.

ADV SANDI: Who came up with this idea that the body of the deceased should be cut in the manner we have been told?

MR TSHABALALA: No one came with this idea, it was something that just happened, we didn't discuss about this, it just happened at that moment.

ADV SANDI: Who was the first person to cut the body?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't remember very well who actually cut, but I will say all of us.

ADV SANDI: Did you cut any particular part of the body, you personally?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I didn't cut any part of his body.

ADV SANDI: What did you do when your colleagues were busy cutting the parts of the body?

MR TSHABALALA: I was present.  I think I cut with them in his stomach, I only cut his stomach, but I don't remember removing any part from his body.

ADV SANDI: Did any one of you talk whilst the body was being cut?

MR TSHABALALA: No one said anything.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that you quietly cut off the various parts of the body, no conversation whatsoever?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it was like that, because we didn't want to make any noise there.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mapoma, we've interrupted you, carry on.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.  What other parts of his body were cut, were removed?

MR TSHABALALA: And also his scrotum was removed.

MR MAPOMA: Which part was removed first?

MR TSHABALALA: The liver.

MR MAPOMA: And it was thrown to the dog and the dog then ran away, isn't it so?

MR TSHABALALA: Would you please repeat that for me?

MR MAPOMA: The liver was removed from the body, thrown to the dog and the dog then concentrated on the liver and left you alone?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, also the scrotum was removed and given to the dog so that the dog could leave us alone.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not mention the scrotum in your evidence in chief?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, they were removed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but why did you not mention that in your evidence in chief?

MR TSHABALALA: I think I made a mistake because I thought I told you.

MR MAPOMA: So after removing those parts of the body, you took the body into the boiler.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: For what reason?

MR TSHABALALA: So that no one discovers his body.

MR MAPOMA: And so that, just - sorry.  Why did you not want his body to be discovered?

MR TSHABALALA: Because we were scared that if his body will be discovered we might be arrested.

MR MAPOMA: But does it make sense, Mr Tshabalala?  The body was going to be discovered anyway, because the body was not going to be destroyed, was it?

MR TSHABALALA: Now that you are saying so, I think you're right, but at the time this is how we thought.  We thought that his body may be totally destroyed into ashes.

MR MAPOMA: You must have hated this white man, isn't that so?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, because of the situation and because of his participation in giving the IFP weapons and having IFP killing Mandla's mother, this is why we hated him.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you.

ADV SANDI: Just one.  Can I take it, from what you've said, that the deceased had been supplying weapons to the IFP for quite some time?

MR TSHABALALA: I only knew the deceased in 1989 when I came to visit Pilane and Pilane briefed me, told me that it has been a long time he's been doing this.

ADV SANDI: Yes, he told you that he had been supplying the IFP with firearms in 1989.

MR TSHABALALA: When I first met him in 1989, that's when he told me so.

ADV SANDI: Had any action been taken against him before this particular day when you went to attack him on his farm?

MR TSHABALALA: We tried to get hold of guns, but then we failed, then we decided to go to him and take his own guns.  We tried.

ADV SANDI: In other words what you are saying is at the time you went to attack him at his farm, no action had been taken against him for supplying the IFP with weapons?

MR TSHABALALA: No, we didn't.

ADV SANDI: Yes, it was the first time that an action had been taken against him for supplying the IFP with arms, it was the first time.  Nothing had been done about this before.

MR TSHABALALA: We wanted to go and speak to him, but then we decided not because we didn't have guns, because we were scared that he will shoot us if we go there unarmed.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabalala, how long did you spend on this farm before the police arrived and arrested you hiding in or on top of the wardrobe?

MR TSHABALALA: It wasn't a long time at all, even though I may be unable to estimate in hours, but it wasn't really a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: Could it have been a day, 24 hours?

MR TSHABALALA: No, definitely not a day.  It wasn't a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: That seems to be what the court found that tried you.  You seemed to have spent about a day on that farm between the attack and the time that the police apprehended you eventually.  You say that is not right?

MR TSHABALALA: No, it is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find any alcohol on the farm?

MR TSHABALALA: I think I do remember Pilane holding a bottle of alcohol when the two of them went inside to search for the guns.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to that bottle of alcohol?

MR TSHABALALA: They drank it, both of them.  Since I do not drink, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they drink it before you cut up the body parts of the deceased?

MR TSHABALALA: It was after because the only time they went inside the house to search for the guns, it was after the deceased had been cut and I was searching the car, that's when they got hold of this bottle of alcohol.

CHAIRPERSON: You were charged, and according to the case that was presented to the court by the prosecution against you, you were charged with having severely mutilated the body of the deceased, in fact according to the summary of the case that was made against you, you were charged with having cut out the eyes, the heart, the liver, and the fat from the deceased's body and to have also severed his penis and his scrotum, was that what you were charged with having done?

MR TSHABALALA: The prosecutor said so in court, but it was a mistake because this is not exactly what we did.

CHAIRPERSON: And my colleague Adv Bosman, has already raised with you the fact that apparently some body parts were found in bottles and some other container inside the farmhouse.  Do you say you know nothing about this?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I know nothing about that.

CHAIRPERSON: And according to the evidence of the police who arrived at the farm, the heart of the deceased was found lying outside the house.  Do you know anything about that?

MR TSHABALALA: I didn't see anything like that at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that's impossible?

MR TSHABALALA: It is actually really impossible, because we didn't do such a thing.

CHAIRPERSON: The trial court also drew a conclusion that the body was mutilated and these body parts, these organs were removed from the body for the purpose of having muti.