Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

CHAIRPERSON: But while on this point I think the previous witness mentioned that, I think it was Mkwanazi, who mentioned that they used to receive food parcels from the Red Cross, is that the position?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: They used to get these when we were still at the ...[indistinct] and at the time when we could not leave the  hostel.  I arranged with Iscor because I realised that it had become burdensome and Iscor decided that they contributed things like milk and mealie meal.  Food parcels came from the Red Cross but before Iscor came in.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Again this was in response to your request, specific request, to Iscor that you are now unable to leave the hostel and therefore buy the necessary foodstuff for yourselves?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	If I understand your evidence as at the beginning of June 1992 Iscor management was aware of these hundreds of unemployed men living in Kwamadala?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what you said at the criminal trial, I'm not contradicting you at this point, you were asked at page 3601.  Now it's common cause that during June 1992 there were not only Iscor employed people living in the hostel but also a large total, large number of other people.  You were asked the question
"What was the situation, how was it possible for them to live in the hostel?"
These are the unemployed people and your answer was:
"It is as you say it to me, the people who came from outside I accepted because there were problems with them.  The Government..."
You said the "regeering" in Afrikaans
	"...brought all these people and I accepted them."
And I'll read the Afrikaans just so that you can hear it because you say you understand Afrikaans, you said"
"Die regeering het al persone gebring en die het ek aanvaar."
Can you just explain how was it that the Government was bringing people to Kwamadala Hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I am saying that the Government brought the people here, I have already referred to the Gubega Homestead and others who came with ulterior motives, using the same reason that they were being killed and burned and people would come and I would accept them.

MR BERGER: When you say the Government brought them, do you mean to say the police brought them?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That's right.

MR BERGER: So therefore it would be fair to say that in June of 1992 not only the Iscor top management but also the police in the Vaal were well aware of the fact that there were hundreds of unemployed men living in the Kwamadala Hostel alongside the 400 odd men employed by Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now as far as the security of Kwamadala is concerned, is it correct that the area around Kwamadala was patrolled by the Vaal commander?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that the same area around Kwamadala Hostel was patrolled by Iscor security?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And Iscor security was in continuous - when they went out on patrol they were in continuous radio contact with a security control room at Iscor, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: There were also in continuous radio control with the security check points?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And these security check points included the gate control posts, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now the gate control to the hostel, there was only one gate to the hostel, correct?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And that gate was staffed by employees of Iscor who fell under the housing department, in other words your department?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: At all relevant times is it correct there were three employees at the gate and those three employees were directly under your supervision?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now the position of patrols that I spoke about are the Vaal Commando and Iscor Security, those were 24 hour patrols, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And on the evening of the 17th June 1992 who were the three men under your supervision at the main gate to the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The night shift included Mr Besini Ntuli and these are the two men, it was a three shift based work, I cannot remember who was checking in at what time, they were relieved after eight hours.  I think it was Simon Shoisa and Simon Mkwanazi.

MR BERGER: I take it there was a register of who was on gate duty at what time?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And would the hostel manager have had control of that register?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: We used to keep the register.  I used to keep this register for daily report purposes so that I could write a correct or precise report.

MR BERGER: And where is that report today, that register today?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The long arm of the law confiscated it without informing me.

MR BERGER: Mr Ntuli, Shoisa, Mkwanazi, where are they today?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Mr Ntuli retired in 1996 and Simons are still alive but unemployed.

MR BERGER: Were they accused in the criminal trial?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Mr Ntuli testified, he came in only as a witness, he was not arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say because he was on shift on the day?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Who did Mr Ntuli testify for, the State or the defence?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: He was summoned by the attorneys of the arrested parties.

MR BERGER: So he gave evidence on your behalf at the trial?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Shoisa and Mkwanazi never gave evidence at the trial?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I do not remember quite well but I think they did not deliver any testimony.

MR BERGER: Did you ever ask Mr Ntuli about what happened that night of the attack?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I did.

MR BERGER: And what did he tell you?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: He said he did not see anything.

MR BERGER: And did you ever ask him why he was not on duty at the gate as he was supposed to be?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: He was not a man of mistakes, there is not a single thing in his response to me that indicated that he left the post for one minute to go to the toilet.

MR BERGER: You see because the reason I ask you this question is that - and I can't recall which of your co-applicants said this but it's been testified to by someone in the applicants that when they left to go attack Boipatong the guards at the gate had abandoned their positions and there were no guards at the main gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge in that regard.

MR BERGER: But you find it very strange, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you as I understood your evidence, Ntuli said he was at his post at the relevant time but he did not see anyone leaving the gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you perhaps ask him that "look here, Mr Ntuli, more than 400 people must have left through the gate, armed and must have returned through the gate at a later point, why didn't you say anything?"  Did you ask him along those lines?