Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson, the next application is on page 44 till 59.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names please?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sit down.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you are presently serving a prison sentence and are housed at the Potchefstroom prison?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: You've had the benefit of listening to your co-applicants' evidence, do you confirm what they said inasfar as the background leading to the death of the two deceased persons?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, let us go to the mine premises at Bekkersdal, is it correct that you were present also?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: I was present Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now can you tell this Honourable Committee what you found when you got into the yard and what you did?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: We chased them right towards the mine.  In front was Steven van Rooyen and Joel Mokoena and Hendrik van Rooyen.  When I arrived there they had already started fighting and I went to Chaba to help him, who was fighting with KK and both drew their knives.
	He tried to fight until Chaba was able to stab him and then when he tried to stab Chaba I kicked him and then he stabbed him again until he couldn't fight.

MR KOOPEDI: Who is Chaba, for the benefit of the Honourable Committee?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: That is Hendrik van Rooyen.

MR KOOPEDI: Honourable Chairperson, you will note that we have many names but we are trying very hard to limit the use of other names.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.
	Now on this deceased person, the one that you were involved with, how many of you were there?  How many of you were fighting or assaulting him?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Whilst we continued Tebogo arrived and we became three.  We kicked until we say that he was not fighting anymore.

MR KOOPEDI: Now his knife, that is the deceased's knife, what happened to it?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: After we stabbed him we took it.

MR KOOPEDI: Now he ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You say: "We stabbed him", how many of you stabbed him with that particular knife?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Those who stabbed him, we were two.

CHAIRPERSON: How many stabbed him with that particular knife belonging to KK?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: I had my own knife and Chaba had his own knife and he was fighting with his own knife.  We took his knife after we finished with him.

MR KOOPEDI: It is your evidence before this Committee that you did not disarm him first, you fought with him and it was only after he had fell down that one of you took his knife?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the act at the mine premises, what political motivation can you attribute to that?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Can you repeat your question again?

MR KOOPEDI: The attack on this deceased person, can you attribute any political motive or objective to it?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: And what is that?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Our intention was not to kill these people, it was to take these people and bring them back to the community where they stayed because they were not staying in Bekkersdal, they were staying in Carltonville.
	After they had done their criminal act they ran to Burgersdorp and we went there to chase them because we got the information and we wanted to bring them back to our township in Carltonville.  Our intention never materialised because those people were armed, then we started fighting with them.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now inasfar as you can recollect, is there anything that you have not brought to the attention of this Committee?  Have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: All has been said by my fellow applicants and then I've already said my bit and that is all.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now just to wrap up, is there anything that you would want to say to the Honourable Committee?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Sorry, I can't understand you.

MR KOOPEDI: I will lead you to it.  When we spoke before we started this morning, there was something mentioned to me about forgiveness, do you remember that?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you say that yourself and tell this Honourable Committee about what forgiveness you were talking about?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Firstly, I thank the Committee for giving me this opportunity to state my case about what I've done together with my comrades.  We were compelled by the situation.  I'm directing this mainly to the families of the deceased and together with their friends.  We did not do a good thing and that is why I am before this Committee to ask for forgiveness.

MR KOOPEDI: Chair, that will be this applicants case for now.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR STEENKAMP: Just two questions Mr Chairman.
	Sir, we've hear how you kicked the deceased, how you attacked him with an iron bar and how you stabbed him until he wasn't moving anymore and you are saying today your intention was not to kill him, are you still sticking to that version?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: I don't know whether you are talking about the first deceased or the second deceased.

MR STEENKAMP: Both of them.

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: I'll put it this way, our intention to go to Bekkersdal was disturbed after he drew a gun and drew the knife, that is when we started to fight until we were able to injure them.

MR STEENKAMP: And them maybe, please help me if I'm wrong, but it sounded to me that your version about the stabbing is totally the opposite to what the previous applicant testified.  He testified that the first deceased was killed with his own knife and the stabbing only started when his knife was taken from him.  You indicated now he was only stabbed with his own knife after or during the assault or the fight with him ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: He's indicating he wasn't stabbed with his own knife, he was stabbed with the persons who went to arrest him, his co-applicants had their own knives.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.

MR STEENKAMP: If I'm wrong I'm ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] clear.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you clear - sorry, Mr Chairman.
	Can you clear that up?  As I understood the previous applicant, he testified that after the deceased's knife was taken from him he was basically stabbed with his own knife, do you agree with that?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Whilst they were fighting there I was not present, on the first applicant, on the first deceased.  I was on Bafino.  I saw later, after they had finished.

MR STEENKAMP: I know you were not present at the killing of first deceased but you were present at the scene, and on your own version you gave us an account of what you saw, didn't you see anything that happened to the first deceased at all or what exactly did you see?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: I saw him at the time whilst he was still fighting with Steven and Joel.  I was concentrating on Bafino, I didn't see what happened later on the first deceased.  I saw him lying on the ground.

MR STEENKAMP: Was anything taken from any of the deceased of the fighting stopped or after they were killed?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell us what that was?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: That is a jungle knife.

MR STEENKAMP: Anything else that was taken?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: On the first one we took a gun and a knife and on the second one, when he fell on the ground we took his knife.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know what happened to the gun and the knife?  Was it destroyed, what happened to it?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: The gun was taken by Joel and he gave it to a certain comrade, I don't know what happened to it later.