Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-06

MR MACADAM: 2B capability is seen as one capability and the offensive capability is seen as another and they are both allocated their respective structures with which to accomplish those particular tasks.  Even though General Liebenberg says at the end of the day that when the offensive unit isn't actually in operation, they can double up as VIP protection, which is not uncommon actually with Special Force type units, because they've got such a wide skills base they can and they do operate a drill(?), as our Special Forces did with Lore Kabilla(?) in Zaire more recently.  So I think there is a very consistent theme that runs through it in terms of the type of capabilities that are required at a political and military level and the extent to which that's reflected in structures and strategies.

MR MACADAM: And how would you compare the requirements set out in the Liebenberg Report with the training that these trainees claim they received?

WITNESS:   Well, in most cases they received the type of training that was actually requested, although I did notice in the Liebenberg Report he - General Liebenberg places quite a lot of premium on the defensive element receiving the type of training that he outlines there which is more of a tactically defensive nature, whereas it sounds from the evidence that they were given a very wide range of training, that included both tactically defensive and tactically offensive weaponry and doctrine.  He seems to veer with the defensive element at least more towards - a more conservative training for them, whilst leaving the more robust training for the offensive component.

MR MACADAM: And could you just clarify, you did indicate the

MR MACADAM: /minimum

MR MACADAM: 2B minimum force concept which prevailed in the SADF's involvement in the violence in the mid eighties.  Now I take there - that one would have the use, for example, when one wanted to just prevent a mob killing people at a rally or attacking and destroying property, one would have to use for example rubber bullets, shotguns with non-lethal pellets, teargas, etcetera.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:  That's correct.  You know, your disposition would also be more defensive.  You wouldn't barge, you know - if you were going to break up crowds, I mean, at the end of the day, you wouldn't barge in and start - well, you weren't supposed to have to start massacring(?) people.  You would employ a range of measures prior to being involved in that.

MR MACADAM: And the - if you can comment on the desirability, if we hear the evidence that the police will claim they were going to be members of the KwaZulu Police, but it would appear that an official and proper appointment within the KwaZulu Police only took place at a later stage, the desirability of civilians having knowledge of the type of weaponry which these people had?

WITNESS:   Given the level of training, it would be worrying.  The advantage of having people in uniform who have got specialist knowledge, is that they fall under the command and control of the armed force in question, but if there are number of people with that type of specialist knowledge and access to material and access to the resources running around with those type of skills, I think one witnesses the type of mayhem that's been all too common since the eighties, in certain areas.

MR MACADAM: And another factor that possibly you might comment

MR MACADAM: /on,

MR MACADAM: 2B on, is the factor when the persons were selected, they claim that there was no inquiry to establish whether they had previous convictions or were wanted by the police?

WITNESS:   That's surprising when you recruit someone, because normally you'd like to check on a person's psychological profile.  I think particularly in the military you'd like to check on someone's psychological profile for many reasons.  You'd also like to check on their medical profile, you'd like to check on the educational qualifications.  I mean when recruiting, like in any corporate organisation, you do a thorough assessment of who you're actually taking in.  It just seems a bit peculiar, if not a bit irresponsible just to take in people willy-nilly without actually checking on their background.

MR MACADAM: And the fact that the persons claim that only supporters of the Inkatha Freedom Party were selected as recruits?

WITNESS:   Well, I think that related to the nature of the political project at hand.  It was a political request for military and armed assistance and that was one of the criterion that were stipulated right at the beginning.

MR MACADAM: And finally, just for the assistance of persons who are not versed in military terminology, can you just generally described to us what "Special Forces" entail?  What type of soldiers are Special Forces?

WITNESS:   Well, in any military scenario you require military personnel who are capable of operating behind enemy lines in the enemy rear areas who possess a wide variety of specialist skills to perform a number of different tasks.  It may be to harass the enemy;  it may be to disrupt his or her

MR MACADAM: /logistical

MR MACADAM: 2B logistical lines;  communications; command structures;  headquarters, by blowing them up, by sabotaging them, to put it quite simply.  It may the need to acquire strategic intelligence or tactical intelligence in the enemy's rear areas.  You may have a need to assassinate or remove certain military figure heads or under certain circumstances certain political figure heads.  You can use Special Forces in a ... (inaudible) and I mean that goes back over the centuries.  So Special Forces are highly trained personnel who have to work in both covert and clandestine conditions with a wide range of skills.  They can deployed inside a country or they can be deployed outside a country.  If you're fighting a battle outside the country you'll deploy them there.  If you're being attacked and your enemy is inside your own territory, you'll employ them internally and indeed in rural counter insurgency allowance is made for the utilisation of Special Forces under such circumstances when the capabilities of your normal military forces aren't sufficient to deal with the enemy that you're actually facing.  That I think in essence is Special Forces, distinguished from other specialist component within a defence force.

MR MACADAM: I have no further questions, thank you.

MR MACADAM: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MACADAM

MR LYSTER: Thank you, Dr Williams.  You will be required at a later stage and it will be communicated to you when cross-examination may take place and questions by the panel as well.  We'll break until 2 o'clock.
LONG ADJOURNMENT
/ON RESUMPTION
2B ON RESUMPTION