Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR STRYDOM: And that is the reason why you don't know this person everybody points out as a key kingpin in this Boipatong attack, because he was arrested before you arrived at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, no, that is not true.

MR STRYDOM: You keep on saying that you came to the hostel in 1991.  I want you to have a look at your statement on page 18, the statement to Mr Kjellberg, the first paragraph reads
"... until January 1990 or 1991 I lived with my father at 671 Newman Road in Everton."
	What I want to put to you is that you are not even certain when you came to that hostel, you say it is either during 1990 or 1991, so there is some uncertainty in your own mind about when you arrived at the hostel, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, that is a mistake.  I arrived at the hostel in 1991 and I was not staying with my father at Newman Road.  I grew up at my uncle's place in Everton.

MR STRYDOM: Yet again then, something that is totally wrong in this statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I don't know about that.  The address is correct 671 Newman Road, Everton.

MR LAX: Sorry, do I understand that that is your uncle's address, not your father's address, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: This is my uncle's address, it is true.  My father stays at Everton as well, but that is my uncle's address.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, do you know a person by the name of Holi Bajozi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I know Holi.

MR STRYDOM: And do you know a person by the name of Oupa Moloi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am hearing that name for the first time.  I am not hearing that name for the first time.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know him or don't you know him from the hostel days?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, I am saying I am not hearing that name for the first time, it has been a long time since I saw him, but yes, I am not hearing the name for the first time.  But Holi is from Zone 7, I know him.

MR STRYDOM: The second person I mentioned, Oupa Moloi, his nickname is Kgobi?  Do you know him?  It seems to me that you are saying the name rings a bell, but I want to know do you know Kgobi Oupa Moloi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I know him.  Yes, he was not my friend, he was a member of the IFP, but he was not my friend.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Eugenius Mxiti?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am hearing that for the first time.

MR STRYDOM: Eugenius Mxiti?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, no, I am hearing that name for the first time.  I would be telling a lie.  I do not know some of the people, there were many of us.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  The last person I want to ask you about is Teresa Mafokeng, do you know her?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, no I don't know Teresa Mafokeng.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to put to you about them, is that they testified at the criminal matter as accomplices, that testified for the State and their evidence were used to convict the accused or the applicants.  These people testified that Mr Mkhize was the leader that led, or he was the person that led the attack onto Boipatong, do you deny that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR STRYDOM: I also want to put to you that these witnesses testified that - well excluding Teresa Mafokeng, but the first three people - that they were part of the attack and they saw no Police vehicles at any stage, during the course of this attack.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They are making a mistake.  There were casspirs at the time of the attack.  Some people of Boipatong survived the attack.

MR STRYDOM: As far as Eugenius Mxiti is concerned, I want to put to you that halfway through the criminal trial, he was brought to the State Prosecutors by the ANC, and ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat?

MR STRYDOM: Mr Mxiti was brought to the criminal trial and was handed over to the staff of the Attorney General by or through connections of the ANC.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR STRYDOM: And he testified that he did not see any Police vehicles during the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is a mistake sir.  I would not implicate the Police falsely, they participated during the time of the attack.

MR STRYDOM: So what I am putting to you is that you are the only person that claims that he was part of the attack, that state that the Police was also involved in this attack.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  I was present at the time of the attack, and the Police were present, using their casspirs.  They were present using casspirs.

MR STRYDOM: I want to suggest to you that the reason why you are implicating the Police, is to get back at the people that tortured you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not true.  I am not implicating them falsely for the purpose of revenge for the torture that I suffered, no.

MR STRYDOM: Did you forgive them for the way they tortured you and mishandled you, manhandled you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were doing their job sir, it was their job that they tortured me.

MR STRYDOM: So you didn't feel bad for what they were doing to you?  That was just their job, that is fine if they do it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I am talking about something that happened, I have no grudge against them.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you go to Ulundi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that I went to Ulundi out of my own volition, to attend the Inkatha conference.

MR STRYDOM: You were a youngster from the township, was there any other reason why you as a person who had never been to Ulundi before, went on this specific occasion?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I wouldn't know, but I did go to Ulundi.

MR STRYDOM: All the people from the kwaMadala hostel that went to Ulundi for that conference, did they go in that vehicle of Damara, driven by Darkie?  They went in one vehicle, only that group of people that went?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I went to Ulundi in a kombi that was driven by Damara Chonco.

MR STRYDOM: Oh sorry, driven yes, sorry, I've got it wrong way around.  Was Mr Vanana Zulu also in that kombi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When you got to Ulundi, did you see other people from the hostel that was not in that kombi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did see them.  They had come, using their private vehicles.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to a document, Exhibit Z, unfortunately not - the second part of that document, I want to refer you to page, it is marked page VI, Chairperson, I see there has unfortunately been a portion cut off, but I will read from the original.  Now I am going to put to you minutes that were taken and you must tell me if you agree with these minutes or not.  On the 18th of July 1992, I think that was on a Saturday.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't recall, but we left on Friday, early in the morning.

MR STRYDOM: Did Mr Zulu report back to the congress goers...

MS CAMBANIS: We can't follow the pagination.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it, is it VI, is it?

MR STRYDOM: VI, the page is marked VI.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is the second - I think it is about the fifth page.

MR BERGER: It is page 17 of Exhibit Z.

MR LAX: That is correct, I've numbered mine, and it is 17.

MR STRYDOM: I am not going to mark the original.  The question I want to ask you before I read this portion to you, did Mr Vanana Zulu get onto the stage to report something to the people there?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, we have gone through this.  I mean if you want to put the minutes to the witness, put the minutes to the witness and let's see what he has to say.

MR STRYDOM: As it pleases you, Chairperson.  According to this minutes, Mtwana V. Zulu reported about Madala incidents.  Would that be correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.