Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: All those area we went to, the members of Murder and Robbery Unit gave me an advice to formulate my statement in such a way that we were supposed to rob all these areas, because the police were aware that I was not military trained, so they promised me much, that even in Court my sentence is not going to be the same as my co-applicant, because they were trained and I was not.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Why didn't you tell your counsel the truth, Mr Masil?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I did not tell my legal counsel the truth, because I did not have opportunity to consult with him and then again I was using that advantage that I'm going to have a lighter sentence, as I was promised.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Did you go to Magoebaskloof Hotel?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And why did you go to Magoebaskloof Hotel?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is one of the reasons for us to show - that is the places where we went where we knew we will have an opportunity to meet white people there.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But there were obviously white people at the Magoebaskloof Hotel.  There are always white people at Magoebaskloof Hotel, why didn't you do anything?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: All things we did, we did because we were instructed by Morapapa, so for us not to enter at Magoebaskloof Hotel and shoot people, it's because Morapapa instructed us to go and rob the area and leave.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil so according to you, you didn't go anywhere to rob anybody, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: May you please rephrase your question?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: The question is, did you go to any place to rob anybody?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: No, Chairperson, we did not go to any particular place with the intention to rob, according to my knowledge.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Your co-applicant said that you needed petrol money and that's why you wanted to rob some of these places.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: It is true that  we were ...(indistinct) money for petrol, so Morapapa instructed me that I should leave everything to his shoulders, he will see what to do.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So to which places did you go to rob for petrol money?  Magoebaskloof Hotel, inter alia?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: We did not do anything at Magoebaskloof, we did not rob any person there.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But did you go there to look for an opportunity to rob for petrol money?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Not in Magoebaskloof Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So where did you go to rob for petrol money, in the hope of getting money for petrol.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: If I remember well it is at  Roedtan, the Sunshine cafe.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you went to the Bouwer's place to rob the cafe for petrol money?  Is that what you're saying?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is what Morapapa explained, that we are supposed to find money for petrol at that particular place.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you went there with the sole purpose to look for money?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Truly speaking, I did not know the entire intention as to whether are we going there only to rob for money for petrol or to kill whoever is in the shop.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: The following is also false and you gave false evidence before the Court, you gave false instruction to your counsel and your statement is wrong.
"I then said that I knew the area.  At approximately 11 o'clock in the morning we went to the Magoebaskloof Hotel to see if we cannot rob this place."

CHAIRPERSON: From which paragraph is that Mr van der Heever?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Page 74 paragraph 13, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Yes, that's true.  The members of Murder and Robbery Unit in Pietersburg told me that in many instances I should say that to all these places we went with the intention to rob, not with the intention to kill white people, because they wanted me to be against, or to contradict my co-accused so that in Court I'll be acquitted, or my sentence would be lighter.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: This is also false and you gave false evidence and you gave your counsel false instructions.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go at any stage to reconnoitre a Standard Bank?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson on two occasions, in Mankweng and in Lebowakgomo.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do that?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I'm not able to explain because the instruction was from Mr Morapapa that we should go there and reconnoitre the area about the security arrangements and then we returned.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, but there are no whites employed by either the Standard bank at Mankweng and the Standard Bank at Lebowakgomo, nowhere.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I don't know, but when we went to Mankweng, I saw three whites, two white males and one female.  In Lebowakgomo I was not able to see any white person there.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But according to, on page 77 from your statement, paragraph 25, you kept the Standard Bank under observation with the purpose of robbing it.  Is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: The intention to reconnoitre that Standard Bank was not to rob at that particular time, but we went there to reconnoitre to see the security arrangements.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the intention was to come back later and rob, otherwise why do it?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And you did the same thing, according to your statement paragraph 26 at Lebowakgomo.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson.  We arrived at Lebowakgomo.  I was together with Silo Motapo.  We entered the complex and we observed.

CHAIRPERSON: The bank?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Not only the bank Chairperson, but we reconnoitred the whole complex.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Standard Bank Mankweng is on the campus of the University of the North, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: No, Chairperson, it is outside the campus.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Adjacent to the campus?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And according to your statement, page 78, paragraph 26.

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: You can just repeat, the translator didn't catch what you said.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Page 78, paragraph 26.  According to your statement
"Moss then said"
the last sentence of that paragraph,
"Moss then said that we will return later that evening to rob the place."

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Not in Lebowakgomo, but he said that on the way.  There is a shop where we entered, where Moss and Zweli bought newspapers there, that is where Moss said when we return in the evening, we would pass there.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And you would rob it, or you must rob it?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: He said we should kill whites who were selling at that shop and then it should be robbed.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: This shop, how far out of Pietersburg is it?  How far is it from Pietersburg?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: If I remember well, it is approximately 15 kilometres from Pietersburg.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And according to paragraph 27 on page 78 the plan was to rob the shop that evening.  Is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But there are no people in the shop during the evening, Mr Masil.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: The truth is, we did not know when do they close that shop and then again we would not enter the shop if there were no people.  We were supposed to enter there whilst people were still inside, as it happened at Roedtan at Sunshine Cafe.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So this is - according to paragraph 28 page 78, the suggestion - it was your suggestion to go to Roedtan, is that correct, with the aim or robbing a cafe, is that correct?