Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.

MR MADASA: What exactly did you do with regard to the killings.

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I did not kill but I was part.

MR MADASA: You say you were a part, what do you mean by that?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: According to my understanding when this incident took place I was present, even though I did not physically take part but my presence there.  Let me give you an example, if it happened at that time the Police caught up with us, all of us there I was not going to be left alone because I did not even have a weapon in my hand.  It doesn't mean I was going to be left out.

MR MADASA: Were you part of the people to whom the order to kill was issued?  In other words were you ordered to kill even though you did not kill?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MADASA: Did you agree with your order?  Did you accept the order?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I did not personally accept that order but my presence there means that I accepted the order.

MR MADASA: Did you, as a result of the order that was issued go with the people who went to kill those people?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR MADASA: When you went you knew that these people were going to be killed?  Is that correct?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Why did you go along with these people?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Because I was a member of that organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be the SDU?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Were you armed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.

MR MADASA: Were you expected by Dondolo or the command structure?  Were you expected to carry out the order?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes, he expected me to carry out the order.

MR MADASA: Did you intervene on behalf of any victim not to be killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No.

MR MADASA: Did you remain at the place where the people were killed until the killing was over?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MADASA: Is there anything else associated with the killing that we are talking about that you did that you have not mentioned?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Can you please repeat your question sir?

MR MADASA: Is there anything else that you did associated with the killings that we are talking about which you have left out?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I don't recall of any.

MR MADASA: Did you have any political objective that you wanted to achieve by participating in the killings in the manner you have described?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MADASA: What was it?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: According to me there were two objectives.  The main objective was that peace was needed in Moleleki.  There was no need to live - we wanted to protect the community that was not protected - we didn't want to live in fear.

MR MADASA: Yes, second reason?  Are you finished?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I think I gave two objectives.

MR MADASA: Who was the source of trouble?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I am a little doubtful because you are not specific sir.

MR MADASA: Who was the cause of trouble in Moleleki that necessitate - that you maintain peace in the manner you did?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Gangsters sir, which existed and those who were referred to as the third force and the  third point is that the Youth League were also part.

MR MADASA: Amongst the people who died, are there people whom you know were gangsters?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: To mention them by names sir, even though I'm not going to emphasise that point, these are the  members of the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the persons who were killed were members of the ANC Youth League?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes, those are the people I am referring to, that they were members of the ANC Youth League.

MR MADASA: So you are saying they were also gangsters as well?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Now you have heard the Applicants who have already testified, have told the Committee about the acts of gangsterism committed by these youths.  Is there any other evidence or are there any other acts which have not been mentioned in the Committee that you know of which you want to tell us as evidence of gangsterism or crimes committed by the youths?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Something comes to my mind.  If I am not mistaken there was a 1400 white bakkie, they were on the back of this bakkie and this bakkie was a stolen bakkie - the youth.

MR MADASA: Do you remember when was this?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: It is before this incident of killing, even though I am not certain about the date.

MR MADASA: Are there any of them that you know by names who were in that bakkie?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: The bakkie was driven by Vips.

MR MADASA: Who else do you know by name who was amongst them?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Maseven was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the other names of Maseven?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: No sir I don't want to commit myself.

MR MADASA: Yes, carry on.  Who else do you know by name?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Thabo.  I don't have his surname.  Miele was also there.

MR MADASA: Miele Miles?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.  That is my recollection sir.

MR MADASA: What did they do with the bakkie?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: This was a stolen bakkie.  I did not know where they got it from, from the community.  After enjoying themselves this bakkie was driven into a cliff.  It was driven into the cliff.  The second point.  There was an incident of hijacking a bakery and they took bread.  The third incident involves a car, a Skyline white car.  This car - the parts were taken and they took the parts to a certain shack.  I don't know whether this shack was their store room, I really don't know.

MR MADASA: Where was this shack?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: The shack was in Block D.

MR MADASA: Is that all?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: That will be all.

MR MADASA: Now after these killings, is there anything that you, personally gained as a result of the killings?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Sir, I would like you to be specific.  What do you mean by saying gain?  What do you mean?

MR MADASA: Did anything, as a result of the killing, anything of value or the like?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: There is nothing sir.

MR MADASA: Before the killing, were you aware of the death of Bulelwa and Blanko?  Were you aware?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.  I was aware of the two deaths.

MR MADASA: Did you know when those deaths occurred?  Bulelwa and Blanko, did you know when they were killed?  Let me put it this way.  At the time of the killings, did you know at that time, you said that you knew that Bulelwa and Blanko were killed.  Did you know when they were killed?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR MADASA: When?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Bulelwa was killed the night after.  She was killed the night after the youth was killed but Blanko was killed in the early hours of the morning.

MR MADASA: Let me hear you properly - I don't know if this was interpreted properly.  Do you say Bulelwa was killed before or after the killings of the victims?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Before.

MR MADASA: Or after?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Before.

MR MADASA: I have no further questions Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.  Mr Mthembu, why did you personally not agree with the order to kill the youth?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Are you asking why didn't I take part.  Can you elaborate your question sir?

MR MAPOMA: You said in your evidence that you personally did not agree with the order to kill.  I'm saying why did you not agree with that order, you personally?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: It was a heavy thing to accept sir.

MR MAPOMA: Why?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Because my entire life, I had never killed a person.  Now this really scared me.