Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-12

CHAIRPERSON: I also still do not understand this aspect of your evidence which seems to contradict with what you've previously stated.  You said these men were identified by Ashley, Ashley pointed them out to you?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes that same - during the week.

CHAIRPERSON: So why should you not be in a position to know whether they are the same persons that had previously been identified to you by Ashley?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said earlier Mrs Chair it was about at night that time before 8 o'clock, those things happened, it was already about dark and that day those people when they were pointed out it was during the day Mrs Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but then ...[intervention]

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: But at night you couldn't see but you could see it was Indians but at the end of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had information about how these people looked like?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you abducted them you say you didn't know whether they were the same persons that had been identified to you by Ashley?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Madame Chair as I've said things happened so fast that day.

CHAIRPERSON: But then when you tortured them you must have been very close to them, is that not so?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As ...[indistinct] Mrs Chair, I don't think while we were torturing they were denying ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: They were from the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, don't preempt my question, I haven't finished my question.  When you tortured them you must have been close, yes or no?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: We may have been close Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: And it were the same people that Ashley - is Madame Chair trying to ask me if those were the same people Ashley were point out?

CHAIRPERSON: Why have you not said that in your evidence in chief and when questions were being put to you by Ms Thabete?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Maybe I'm a bit confused Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Why should you be confused when you are giving evidence about an incident that happened, that you have had an occasion to reflect upon because you know you have to come and give evidence before this Committee?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well I think Mrs Chair anyone who is coming here is a bit worried, things like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Worried about what?  All you have to do is to tell the truth?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes and that's why I'm here today to tell the truth Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: So why should your evidence be confused and therefore incorrect?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Mrs Chair at the end of the day Mrs Chair can also take into account where I'm sitting today without a cent and it's a bit difficult, psychologically I'm confused Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madame Chair.
	You say you were just a supporter of the ANC.  Were you a member of the ANC?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MS THABETE: You were?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MS THABETE: Do you have a card?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well at the moment I can't get any card because I'm in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time in question did you have a card, were you a card carrying member?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes I had a card but I lost my card.

MS THABETE: Under what branch were you working in Westbury, do you have a branch in Westbury?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At that time there was no branch in Westbury.  Mr Ashley Bashing made me a card because in 1993 there was no branch.  I heard late 94/95 they had a branch there.  During that time there wasn't any branch.

MS THABETE: Anyway my question is you were just a supporter and member of the ANC.  What authority did you have to give instructions to other people to commit these acts.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: And I will say that time is a time I'll go, there's nothing I could have done, it was an order I get from Mr Ashley Bashing.

MS THABETE: No, I'm saying you also instructed, he gave a further instruction, isn't it?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MS THABETE: I'm asking you what authority did you have to give such further instructions as just a member and supporter.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Mrs Chair I think that time there was nothing I could have done.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you saying there's nothing you could have done when the question is so simple.  What authority did you have to give instructions to members of the community to carry out something that had been issued to you in your capacity as an ANC member and your evidence, may I remind you, was that these were ordinary locals, not necessarily ANC supporters or members?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day Mrs Chair the order was given to me so it's always that I should have some manpower that's why I used those guys for manpower to assist me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a unit in your area when you talk of manpower?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: No maybe Madame Chair is understanding me wrong, I just used those guys to help me that day.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were given an order by Ashley ...[intervention]

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you discuss with Ashley that you did not have people that can assist you in order to execute the order?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It wasn't any discussions.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not do that?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Because the same day, most of that time Ashley and Mr Marx they were busy, I don't know what they were busy with, other staff, I don't know which staff they were busy Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: But now after that date you did not have an occasion to speak further to Ashley, this was an important order?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I know Madame Chair because I didn't have any chance to talk because I only met Ashley again on the Saturday morning and we attend a funeral.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Maybe I should make a follow up question on that aspect.  Did Ashley give you reasons why these men or Indian men had to be eliminated?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well you know sometimes you just call it like ...[indistinct] language, they were busy there, at the end of the day he was just giving the information, he didn't told me because I could just take note because of my activities.

MR LAX: The question was did he give you a reason why they should be eliminated?  It's a very straightforward question.  Do you understand the question?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LAX: Why did - what reason did he give you, did he give you a reason, yes or no?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well at the end of the day ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just answer the question, did he give you a reason?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes he gave me a reason.

MR LAX: Right, what reason was it?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It's actually in connection with the gun running and the activities we were involved.

MR LAX: So what do you mean in connection with, why was that a problem that they should be eliminated.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day there's nothing I could have done, because they were from the security branch, on the other side we were arming ourself for the security branch also at that time.

MR LAX: Yes but you're involved in gun running?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LAX: These people are investigating your activities?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LAX: Now how is killing them going to stop anyone else investigating your activities?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That question also came to me earlier on, it would be difficult to say because at the end of the day I wanted to send the message.

MR LAX: So it wasn't Ashley's decision, it was your decision?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It came from Ashley I shouldn't have shot them if it wasn't a decision from Ashley.

MR LAX: Well you've never told us that Ashley wanted to send a message, you've said you wanted to send the message.