Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson I can mention that I was not personally involved in  any criminal investigations. I can well mention that people who were detained, whether for
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murder or arson, that this detention was cancelled according to the emergency regulations in accordance with instructions from head office, so that they could be criminally prosecuted.  This prosecution did indeed take 
place, although, Chairperson I would like to say that where there was a benefit of doubt given to the accused where a witness had not turned up at court, I was also aware of this, but I myself was not personally involved in the investigations and I'm convinced that the investigations were thoroughly conducted in order to convert these charges to criminal charges.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Chairperson.

MS MKHIZE: Col D Jager, I know you said that you were not part of the torture, you were not there when people were tortured, but you mean in your establishment you were not aware of the presence of such equipment, like you would like to know about typewriters and, you know, fans, and any inventory in your establishment?

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson I would like to answer that with a clear conscience.  I do not know of any such apparatus, I do not know of any such torture, I have no need to hide it. That is all I can say to you.

MS MKHIZE: Then didn't you have any powers over the people who were investigating, were they not answerable to you, the people who did the investigations and used such methods of torture?

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson I myself was not personally aware of any such occurrences.  You know that when people did this it was never mentioned.  As I say I was very involved with what was happening at the office, information was brought to me by the field workers, which was obtained
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by them, but as far as assaults, I was never aware of any such activities.

MR LEWIN: Mr de Jager, I'm interested in the role of the states of emergency. Did you as superintendent or colonel
or whatever it was, station commander at the time, was this a useful act for you at the time, to have a state of emergency declared?

COL DE JAGER: If I understand the question correctly, I was a captain at the time, and I would like to say that the state of emergency was enacted due to the riots in Kwandebele and any member of the security force was authorised to apply the state of emergency regulations, and as station commander, I knew about other aspects as well. So the enforcement thereof, I heard about it at a later stage, you know it was published in a government gazette and a study was made of it, so I am aware of the enforcement thereof.

MR LEWIN: But in practice, was it useful?

COL DE JAGER: If you would like to know whether it had a positive impact in Kwandebele, I would like to answer in the affirmative. Yes violence decreased and it was possible for people to live in peace in Kwandebele, people who were initially the instigators or perpetrators were on the decrease, so I would like to answer in the affirmative, yes they did have a positive impact.

MR LEWIN: Could I ask what the major differences were in terms of your day to day work between a state of emergency and there not being a state of emergency?

COL DE JAGER: As station commander my duties differed in the sense that sometimes I would have to alternately report for duty at Denelton and sometimes I'd be called to the
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Denelton at the Gonyama's kraal where people had been assaulted by the so-called vigilante groups, such statements I would take down and register the matters for investigation, so in the same period, my cells were always full as a result of arrests of people in terms of the state of emergency.  So there was an increase in the work load as station commander.

MR LEWIN: Would you give us an example of, say you have someone who's just been arrested, or detained, which is the correct term I am led to understand, someone who's detained, what then happens to that person? Say over a 24 hour period, how do you deal with that person?

COL DE JAGER: The requirement was as soon as the person was detained, we had to arrange a medical examination and that was done, and each person's file would contain a medical report, thereafter his next of kin would be informed. I would like to say that initially, as a result of the masses who were detained, not everyone could be medically examined but eventually it became possible of a result of my duties.

MR LEWIN: And then what happened to them?

COL DE JAGER: Thereafter the investigators were sent out to conduct further investigations to establish how involved these people were and with what they were involved and also have the motivation sent through within 14 days of whether these people should be detained any further or not.

MR LEWIN: What happens if someone doesn't cooperate?

COL DE JAGER: It is difficult.  I did not have any such experience you know. I never had any such experience. People were always willing to mention names of others who were involved in similar activities and there was always
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information of people who had meetings at night because during the day it was too obvious, so  meetings would be held at night, so it wasn't always very difficult to obtain information from detainees.

MR LEWIN: Once you had got the information you wanted, could you then release the people?

COL DE JAGER: If it was found that he was not involved, we would authorise their release immediately and certainly many many of them were released.

MR LEWIN: But the cells stayed full.

COL DE JAGER: It depends on which period we are referring to.  Initially in '86 and beginning of '87, the cells were fairly full and we had to also provide for people who were apprehended for normal criminal activities.

MR LEWIN: Mr de Jager could I ask you a very simple question, because we sat through a large amount of testimony, not only here, but in other parts of the country where people have talked about what happened to them in detention, can you honestly say that you have never yourself  in this area ,heard of reports of people being maltreated in detention, of being leaned on in one way or another?
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COL DE JAGER: Although I never saw the person myself, he assaulted the person and that person required medical attention, I know of such an instant, although I cannot remember the person's name.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he do, this Kloppers?

COL DE JAGER: I do not know if he assaulted him with his bare hands or what has happened.  It is merely hearsay that the person was injured and I then instructed that that person should receive medical attention and that the normal
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steps had to be taken and a statement should be obtained from the person and that it should be investigated.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did the doctor say?

COL DE JAGER: I did not have any insight into the docket itself.

MR LEWIN: Just today there are about four or five people who have mentioned this business of electric shocks.  Have you yourself no evidence, no experience, can you honestly say that you have never had any experience of people being shocked?

COL DE JAGER: I did not encounter any such person who was in detention who showed any injuries of such  electrical shocks.  I have encountered people who were assaulted by sjamboks but that was not inflicted by the police. As I previously mentioned, it was by the Mbokoto members.

MR LEWIN: But under your commands there was never any shock treatment used on detainees?

COL DE JAGER: Yes I can say that in all honesty.

MR LEWIN: Do you know of similar stories from other parts of the country?

COL DE JAGER: I do not understand the question, when you speak about stories.