Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

MR WEBSTER: Now this is what I want to establish from you, was it just a couple of shots or was it heavy firing?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: There was fairly heavy shooting.  From the moment I started shooting there was a massive attack of shots being fired from various directions.

MR WEBSTER: We know that you were firing?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: We know the kombi was firing.  Where else was the shooting coming from?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: From the right hand rear side of my vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: The vehicles then all came to a stop at some stage or another?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: Can you then tell us which vehicles were at which position after they came to a stop?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: My vehicle, the one that I drove, was on the left hand side at the rear, in relation to the suspect vehicle the kombi was in front of the vehicle and then there were other vehicles behind us, I can't remember the exact positions and who drove them etcetera.

MR WEBSTER: Because it was at three main carriageway, would you say that those vehicles that were behind were in the lane in which the vehicle was?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I can't recall but there were vehicles behind my vehicle, possibly spread over the three lanes or two lanes, but there were vehicles, I can't remember exactly where each of them was.

MR WEBSTER: Okay, the fast lane, was that open to traffic when your vehicles all came to a stop?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I'm not sure, it might have been the case, I can't recall.

MR WEBSTER: As best as you can recall Mr Botha, was there a vehicle on the fast lane, a vehicle from the reaction unit, whatever with any of the police officers?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: There were vehicles behind my vehicle so the possibility existed there could have been such a vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: No, I understand, you've already told me about the vehicles behind yours, I'm talking about vehicles on the fast lane.  Were there such vehicles?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: What I can recall is as I've described that my vehicle was on the left hand side of the suspect vehicle, the vehicle itself and then to the right in front of the suspect vehicle or kombi.

MR WEBSTER: You cannot then recall any other vehicles on this - whether behind you or behind the suspect vehicle or in the fast lane?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: There were vehicles behind mine that I can recall but I can't recall exactly.  Well, it was a long time ago, I can't remember exactly where they were but there were vehicles behind mine.

MR WEBSTER: Was at any stage that any other vehicle could have shot from the left of the vehicle in which the four occupants were besides your vehicle?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I suppose it's possible because when the shooting starting there was heavy shooting so it's possible.

MR WEBSTER: What is possible?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chair, let me explain that during this shooting it wasn't only police vehicles that were present, there were also vehicles belonging to members of the public.  We tried to put these vehicles between ourselves and the suspect vehicle so there weren't only police vehicles on the road but also many other vehicles driven by members of the public.

MR WEBSTER: Don't be evasive Mr Botha, my question to you is very simple insofar as shots being fired from the left side of that vehicle, was there any other vehicle from which shots could have come besides your vehicle?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It's possible.

MR WEBSTER: Which vehicle would that have been?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I can't remember but it's possible.

MR WEBSTER: This is strange, Mr Botha, you're in radio communication, from what you have told us, your vehicle was the only vehicle as far as I can understand that was to the left of the vehicle in which the occupants were and there's possibility there was another vehicle on the left hand side that you cannot even remember or can tell us about?  Is that the position?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, as I've already testified there were several vehicles, not only police vehicles but vehicles belonging to members of the public, the road was very busy when it took place.

MR WEBSTER: I'm not talking of ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think if that you would be doing yourself a favour, the questions are really being directed at the police vehicles.  Admittedly there were other vehicles that were using the road and so on but I think that we are concentrating on the police vehicles, the vehicles of the reaction unit and so on, that's what he is talking about.  That's what you're interested in?

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, thank you for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: But Chairperson, this witness has said time and again "I didn't look back, I don't know where those vehicles were".  He keeps on saying that and it's the only answer he gives.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we're asking him about whether there was firing from those vehicles.

MR VISSER: Yes well he says he doesn't know where the vehicles were.

CHAIRPERSON: That there was heavy firing the question seems to be - you see the way, the picture we've got is here is a suspect vehicle, this vehicle is behind that, the kombi was alongside and at some stage got in front.  He talks about heavy firing and I don't have a picture in my mind as to where that heavy firing came from apart from his attempt at shooting behind and the kombi.  Now, were there other vehicles that were firing?

MR VISSER: Yes he gave that answer, he said from behind him and to his right there was also firing but he didn't observe the motor vehicles, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Yes, so there was firing from other police vehicles, plain and simple isn't it?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, my interest at the moment is vehicles to the left of the vehicle of that Cressida.  Not interested in all the other, behind the vehicle, to the right of the vehicle, we're talking about the left of that vehicle.

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It is possible but if I may just explain, in a situation like this where shots are fired so quickly, your attention is focused on the vehicle in front of you and the danger and the problem, I was nearly knocked off the road twice, so there's not a lot of time to then make observations around me.  Your focus is on the present situation.

MR WEBSTER: Surely you would have known or been aware of the presence of another vehicle in front of you, police vehicle in front of you which could have fired at that Cressida because I take it that that vehicle, once the Cressida had come to a stop would have also stopped there, not just driven away that you could never have seen it, do you agree with me?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Sorry, could you just repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that apart from the kombi where you say at one stage was on the right hand side of the suspect vehicle and then came in front of the suspect vehicle, there was a collision between the suspect vehicle and the rear of the kombi, was there a possibility that there was another police vehicle?

MR WEBSTER: On the left hand side of the Cressida.

CHAIRPERSON: On the left hand side in front of the Cressida.

MR WEBSTER: In front of Mr Botha's vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: In front of your vehicle on the left hand side.  Could there have been a vehicle on the left hand side of the suspect vehicle?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: As I said, it's possible but I can't remember it.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't remember.

MR WEBSTER: All things consider, Mr Botha, that vehicle would not have driven away after the Cressida was stopped, do you agree?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Which vehicle?

MR WEBSTER: If the vehicle, another vehicle had been present in front of your vehicle?

CHAIRPERSON: Police vehicle?