Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR RICHARD: Now one last question.  During the period that he stayed with you and you took care of him, did you ever have any reason to suspect that he might be an informer?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Not at all because I think I was supposed to be his first victim if he was an informer.

MR RICHARD: Now during that period there was a lot of activity with informers?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: It's true.

MR RICHARD: How is it that the police identified him at Khotso House?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: The police?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I think because of his previous arrests, it was possible that they could identify him.

MR RICHARD: Did you know about his television programmes and radio broadcasts interviews?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes I do know about those things, "The Children Against Apartheid", it's one of the interviews which we had.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: I take it you've never seen that television programme?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Sorry sir?

CHAIRPERSON: I take it you have not seen that television programme, it hasn't been screened here?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: It was screened.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it?  Here?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When?  When was it screened here?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Sorry Judge, I don't think it was screened but there was an uproar about it within the country just after it was screened overseas, yes it's true but it was in the newspapers, a lot about it in the newspapers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SANDI: It was not broadcast on national TV was it?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: No it wasn't, yes and I have a copy of the video, so.

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions for this witness.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you sir, I have no questions.

ADV SANDI: Mr Tlhwale, this thing - just one or two things, this thing you've referred to as a walkman he had on his waist, who did it belong to and what was it for?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: No, it was his, it was a tape playing cassette ...(indistinct)

ADV SANDI: Did you say he was in possession of weapons at the flat?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes he was.

ADV SANDI: Can you give a description of those weapons, what were they?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: He had a Makarov pistol and two handgrenades in his possession.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: How did he support himself?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Generally as I said that he was a volunteer worker in the office.  A sum of money was paid to him monthly.

CHAIRPERSON: So a volunteer worker didn't mean unpaid worker?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: He was paid monthly.

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Ja, during those times there were grants for volunteer workers for transport and for food.

CHAIRPERSON: This R1 500 that was to come to you, what was it to be used for?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: The money was my personal money.  What happened in 1986, a friend was skipping the country, took the money from me and when he was in Zambia the ANC had to refund the money back to me and that's how the money came into the whole like chain of hands until it ended up in Sicelo's hands.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would not have been going to Baragwanath Hospital?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I'm not sure of that one.

CHAIRPERSON: No, because if it was your money?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes, it was my personal money.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: May I ask two or three further questions?
	What became of the handgrenades and Makarov pistol that Sicelo had?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I think that the night of Friday, I mean the day of Friday when he left I suppose that he left with those things because they were not in the flat afterwards.  It was only the material which belonged to me in the flat.

MR RICHARD: Did you watch the cassette video that you had on the television programme?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes I did.

MR RICHARD: Did Sicelo's face appear in the video?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes it did.

MR RICHARD: Prominently.

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Prominently, definitely so.

MR RICHARD: Now last question, was money given to detainees at Baragwanath Hospital?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: Yes money was given to detainees at Baragwanath Hospital.

MR RICHARD: Who gave the money?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: We were a group of about four or five people in the office and mostly because even myself I was sometimes in detention and Ms Ntombi Mosikare was the person who usually went to hospital to give money to the detainees.

MR RICHARD: If the deceased had been found with that amount of money, what sort of explanation would have been given to them?  Would you have said hold on, it's comrade Joe's money or would he have told some other story?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: That one I don't think I have a definite answer for it because I wasn't in that situation.

MR RICHARD: But would he have told people your name if he was asked where he stayed?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I'm not sure sir.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just one thing Mr Tlhwale, did he tell you where these weapons came from?  What did he say about these weapons?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: I think myself as an underground operative, part of my work was secret and I couldn't even discuss with him some of the things even units or cells which I belonged to and also I think that was his modus operandi, he couldn't say where, like to me, where he got the weapons but I knew that he was an operative.

ADV SANDI: In other words he never asked you?

RAMATALA JOSEPH TLHWALE: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR RICHARD: My next witness is Ntombi Jane Mosikare.

ADV SANDI: Good afternoon Madame, can we ask for your full names?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Good afternoon Sir, my name is Ntombi Jane Mosikare.

ADV SANDI: Mositare?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Mosikare - k-a.

ADV SANDI: In what language are you going to testify?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: English.  (sworn states)

MR RICHARD: Thank you.
	In and during the period 1986 through to January 1988, what did you do and where did you work?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I was working at the DPSC office as one of the full time staff.

MR RICHARD: And what were your activities there?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well, doing some advice work and also taking statements from people who were released from detention and also families who were coming to report that their children have been detained.

MR RICHARD: Now during that process did you ever arrange for legal representation?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Pardon?

MR RICHARD: Did you arrange for legal representation for the detainees?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes we arranged legal representation also that people came out of detention were sometimes tortured and others suffered psychological effects so we had to send them to NAMDA and to the doctors as well.

MR RICHARD: Now which attorneys did you refer ex-detainees to?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: There were a number of lawyers around Johannesburg who were handling cases.

MR RICHARD: And was Mr Ismail Albe's office one of them?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Right, now during that period you came to know the deceased, Sicelo Dhlomo?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: When did you first meet him?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well the office I think was opened in 1985 but I joined them early in 1986 after the killing of my brother.

MR RICHARD: And when did you meet the deceased, Mr Dhlomo?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I'm not quite sure when I met him but I think it was 1987.

MR RICHARD: If I give you some dates in and during the period June to November 1986, he spent a period of three months in - he spent that period in detention, three months in solitary confinement of it.  Then again there was an incident on the 12th October 1987.  Was it in connection with either one of those incidents that he first made contact with the DSPC?