Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

MR KOOPEDI: Well I find this strange, and perhaps your comment can help me understand this issue better, your co-applicant testified that they spoke to Betty, made her agree to work for them, after some time, from other sources they found out that some people may be suspecting Betty, Betty also said she might be suspected and this when the plan to abduct her was hatched.  Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, Mr Koopedi, could you please just tell him which of the two.  We've heard two of colleagues, which one of the two said that?

MR KOOPEDI: Your colleague, in this instance I'm referring to Mr Jantjie.  Now what I find strange and where I need your comment is, where were you all this time?  Betty is recruited, you are told.  Information comes from sources that Betty may be suspected by the ANC.  You don't know that.  Betty tells your colleagues that she might be suspected by the ANC that she's now working for the Police.  You are not told.  There's a plan to abduct.  You are not told.  This plan is discussed with Betty, who agrees with it.  You still are not told, you're only told on the day of going to fetch her.  Can you give me a comment on that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, there were other sensitive issues that were taking place that I was not supposed to know.  Maybe it's one of the reasons why I was not given everything about Betty.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  You ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Can I just pose one question?
	What were those sensitive things being discussed?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Thank you, Chairperson.  I cannot expose them, I believe my superiors are in that position.

MR SIBANYONI: Why was it - it would appear you were kept out of some of the matters which were discussed, is there any reason for that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't know, but I believe the need-to-know basis plan was implemented with a reason, I was not meant to know some of the things.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but you see Mr Thulo, you are here before us, one of the requirements for you to get amnesty is to make a full disclosure.  A question has been posed to you is that a lot of things happened, and let's take these particular people who are subject of this hearings.  Mr Koopedi asked you that you were merely informed that discussions, whatever, you were not privy to that, but you only came in the picture when you had to go and fetch these people from Lesotho.  Your response thereto is that there were other sensitive things you were doing and the question is what were those sensitive things?  Because let me be honest with you, that you will correct me if I'm mistaken, listening to you and the other two we have heard so far, is that you were a unit of four.  Would I be wrong?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: You are not wrong, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you see, this is not a large unit, four people working together, but now most of the things that happened within this unit, you are for some strange reason excluded or you were not privy to some of the things which they discussed.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Honourable Chairperson, I want to repeat this, I would not ask anything because of the principle of need-to-know basis.  One other thing Chairperson, to be in my unit, that did not mean I would be in contact with them, physical contact with them every day.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said earlier whatever information you got in this information gathering, you would discuss it to see the veracity of such information before you would report to those senior to you.  Now what, would you be included in the discussion if the need-to-know basis operates within people comprising a unit which is so small, four?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, maybe you do not understand what I'm trying to tell you.  I am saying, in all the things that happened I would not be present in all of them.  When I was not present I did not have any powers to come and say: "Guys, I was not here yesterday, what did you do?"  I respected the principle of need-to-know.  If they did not volunteer to tell me, I would not dare to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not know about Ms Betty Boom, how she was recruited, would you know about that?  Or did you know only when they said you must fetch her from Lesotho?  Which of the two did you know?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, let me take it from what I've said.  Mr Jantjie told me that they had an informer called Betty Boom.  How she was recruited, I do not know.  I was told on that day: "Go with these people and go and fetch that person."

CHAIRPERSON: You see why I'm asking you this, it's part of your application, papers before us, you say we must incorporate what Jantjie said into your application.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That's what I said, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And help me if I'm mistaken, that what I understood is that what Jantjie said, you should know about it.  That's my understanding.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not know what Jantjie said before you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what his application contains?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I have a copy in front of me, Sir, of his application.

CHAIRPERSON: I say when you compiled your application did you know what Jantjie had in his application?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I had glanced through it, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: My reading of Jantjie's application, it does not mention that some of the things you were told or you were not told, he doesn't say so.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't know that, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And when I read yours - bear with me for a minute - if you have regard to page 24, Clause 9(a)(iv), where it says
"Nature and Particulars"
		"These incidents are thoroughly defined in Mr Jantjie's amnesty application and I request the Amnesty Committee to incorporate this with my application."
What are you saying when you say that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believe what is stated here is my intentions.

CHAIRPERSON: That whatever - this is my understanding, that whatever Jantjie has written, we must take it that it refers to you as well?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Allow me to ask a question.  Whatever Jantjie has put down here, is it the same as what he gave evidence to, oral evidence to?

CHAIRPERSON: He went further in his oral evidence, and I can't recall and I say the legal representatives should help me in this instance, and my Committee Members, he never said that other things you had to know on a need-to-know basis only.  There were things in other words, which were kept away from you. You operated as a unit of four.  For instance with Betty Boom, she was identified, it was identified that she had financial problems and this was the best way of getting to Betty Boom, to take advantage of her dire financial straits.  Did you know such information about Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I said there are some of the things I knew and some I did not know and what you've just mentioned now was unknown to me.  I was told on that day: "Go and assist these people to bring that person", that's all.  I never had anything to do with Betty Boom.
	Allow me to ask a question, Chairperson.  The facts that Mr Jantjie forgot to mention, or that I've mentioned and he had forgotten to mention, is it a mistake really?