Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe I think you should, I don't think that you could put it that there was an order from the leadership of the ANC because that would infer or refer to a lot of people.  Shouldn't we stick to the person who gave the order, because I don't know whether you could say the State President or the Vice President whether they had given this order.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am indebted to you Sir.  Did you believe in the order given to you as ANC members by your local Chairperson, Mr Manong then?

MR MATELA: Yes I believed in it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why did you believe in what he was telling you?

MR MATELA: I believed in him because at that time we were fighting against the White people trying to bring about changes, and the White people hated Black people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now when Mr Manong gave an instruction that you people must protect or defend the community did he spell out how this was to be done?

MR MATELA: He said that you as the comrade, you'll find means as to how to defend yourself.  You will find whatever you can.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now in his instruction or order to you, did you understand that to be meaning that if there's need for an attack you must carry out the attack on persons?

MR MATELA: Please repeat your question.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The instruction or order given by Mr Manong, did you understand it to be meaning that if an occasion arises for you to attack persons, that you have the right to do that?

MR MATELA: Yes we had that right according to him.

JUDGE WILSON: The instructions he gave you, as I understand them, and as you wrote out in your application, was to patrol the location to protect the residents against any threats, you were there to "protect", not to attack, not to kill, unless it was necessary in the course of protection, that is so isn't it?

MR MATELA: Yes it is so, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Well can you explain how you can possibly think you were protecting anybody when these four people were being beaten by a vast crowd, why should it be necessary for you to join in, beating them with an iron rod?  That was not necessary to protect anyone was it?

MR MATELA: It was necessary because at that time we ...(tape ends)  and it was very difficult to tell who had a role or not, but it was decided that everybody should defend themselves because the White people might come or even Inkatha or even the Russian vigilante group to attack.

JUDGE WILSON: I am talking about your act in picking up an iron rod and joining in beating people who were being beaten to death by 5 or 600 people, how you can call that - how do you call that an act of protecting anybody?

MR MATELA: Yes I would say that it was in defence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In the trial court, the criminal court, you pleaded not guilty to the four murders, do you remember that?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And in the trial court itself, by means of the record it is indicated that you were actually absolving yourself from the whole incident, is that so?

MR MATELA: Yes it is so Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you agreed with me during consultation that what you told the trial court was a lie, is that not so?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you tell this Committee as to why you lied in the criminal court?

MR MATELA: I lied because in court if you belong to a political organisation that is for Blacks, even if you lied or not you would be sent to jail.  Moreover if you belonged
to the ANC.  The judges at that time were also belonging to the apartheid era.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now can you tell this Committee today that what you have told the Committee, your evidence today, is the truth and exactly what happened on the day done by yourself?

MR MATELA: Yes it is the absolute truth.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now Mr Matela you have agreed with me that the incident was not a good incident by killing four persons.

MR MATELA: Please repeat your question.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You said the incident was not a good one in killing four persons in the way in which they were killed.

MR MATELA: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How do you feel about it now, when you recollect?

MR MATELA: I feel that at that time it was due to the political situation and the township was trouble-torn and there was violence, and thus I found myself in that situation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you were not being addressed by the local chairperson Mr Manong about protection or defence, would you have taken part in the attack?

MR MATELA: No I would not Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now Mr Matela the next of kin of the victims or the deceased are not herein present but supposing they were herein present, what would you have to say to them today?

MR MATELA: I was going to ask forgiveness for what happened because that happened because of the prevailing situation in the township at that time, there was hatred amongst us,  White people and Black people at that time.  That was the political situation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: You were accused 1 at the trial weren't you?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you remember the evidence that was led at the trial?

MR MATELA: Yes I do remember.

JUDGE WILSON: It was said that a red bakkie cut off the white Mazda and it came to a stop.  Out of the red bakkie three people climbed, yourself, accused 2 and another, do you remember that evidence?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: That you immediately began hitting the vehicle and ordered the people in it to climb out.

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And then assaulted them.

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: There were many other people there.

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And that the woman disappeared behind a house in the company of you and others.

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You haven't told us anything about that have you?

MR MATELA: I did not explain because there were so many activities and many people were taking part in this attack and moreover it was in the evening when this happened.

JUDGE WILSON: It's what you did that is of importance and you have not been frank with us and honest in telling us what you did, have you?

MR MATELA: This is a statement I gave in court.

JUDGE WILSON: This is the evidence that I am reading to
you that other people gave, not that you arrived on the scene and there were 500 people already chopping them, but you were in the bakkie that cut them off and started the attack, do you remember that?

MR MATELA: No I was not in that van, I was not in that van.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was in the van?

MR MATELA: I do not know them.  Because when I came from my sister's house whilst patrolling I found these White people already being attacked.  I don't know wherefrom did they come from, from which direction, they were already being attacked when I got there.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you accompany them taking the woman around the house, to the back of the house?

MR MATELA: No Sir, I did not accompany them.

ADV DE JAGER: Who cut off the woman's breast?

MR MATELA: I do not know because there were many people.

ADV DE JAGER: Who raped the woman?

MR MATELA: I did not see who raped her because at that time it was just fighting, there was no intention to rape.  The aim was to fight.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they take off all her clothes?

MR MATELA: That I don't remember clearly.

ADV DE JAGER: But you've seen the corpse, you've left the four people there lying, was the woman still dressed?

MR MATELA: She was naked at that time and even some of the men were naked at the time.  They just had their briefs on, underwear.

ADV DE JAGER: Now if you wanted to defend yourselves was it necessary to take off their clothes and torture them and assault them in the way you did?