Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR RICHARD: And he discussed the radio interviews he was doing with Dutch television and the British Broadcasting Corporation?

MR TSHABALALA: He did not go into the details, but I did see the video cassettes after some time.

MR RICHARD: Did you watch the video cassettes on a television set, on a VCR?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not remember whether I saw it on TV, but I had the video cassette.   I had one for myself.

MR RICHARD: So the deceased's activities in this regard were widely known and very public amongst his circle of friends?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I can say that.

MR RICHARD: Now when your legal representative asked you the question when did you recruit the deceased, you stated very quickly and very certainly August/September 1987.

MR TSHABALALA: That is what I said.

MR RICHARD: So when people put it earlier in the year you think their memory is not correct.

MR TSHABALALA: I would not dispute it.

MR RICHARD: But you're certain that it was as late as potentially September in the year?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR RICHARD: Now what motivated you to recruit the deceased?

MR TSHABALALA: Firstly, the deceased was my friend, a person that I knew I could trust and I knew that he could maintain secrecy, and that he had maintained a high level in the political arena.

MR RICHARD: And in fact from your point of view he was a desirable and valuable person to recruit, public figure.

MR TSHABALALA: Not because he was a public figure, but I felt that he could fit into that category of desirable people.

MR RICHARD: What did you tell the first applicant, Mr Dube about the deceased?

MR TSHABALALA: Are you - what ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: At the time that you proposed that he join the cell, what did you tell Mr Dube?

MR TSHABALALA: Let me put it this way.  I contacted the commander, Clive Makhubu and I recommended Sicelo.  I did not speak to Dube.

MR RICHARD: What did you tell Clive Makhubu?

MR TSHABALALA: I told him that as I had been requested to find somebody with whom we could work, I had identified Sicelo Dhlomo.

MR RICHARD: Now can you explain what the reporting obligations for cell members was to each other and to their immediate commander.

MR TSHABALALA: Are you referring to the report I had to make after I recruited Sicelo?

MR RICHARD: What were ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR RICHARD: What were the members of a cell required to do regarding reporting of their activities and their plans?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not know if I get your question clearly.

MR RICHARD: Have you been present over the last two days?  You've heard evidence that cell members were required to report their activities, could you explain your version of that?

MR TSHABALALA: I must say that some of these activities were simple and obvious, but there were time when you had to report about activities which were not so simple.  For example, if I were to visit a relative in Daveyton and I would be absent for a while, there would be a need for me to report to the commander that I have to go visit my relatives.  I think that is how I can respond to your question.

MR RICHARD: Did you do this personally from the very beginning of your membership of the cell?

MR TSHABALALA: What are you referring to?

MR RICHARD: When you joined the cell, you personally, did you immediately start reporting to your commander, that's Clive, if you went to Daveyton to visit a relative or any such activity? - from the very beginning.

MR TSHABALALA: Those were some of the rules and principles which had been given to me, and I followed them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what you said, Mr Tshabalala, and I can understand it, is you said if you were going to go and visit a relative for some time, that is if you were going to be away for some time you reported the fact.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I said that.

ADV SANDI: But you also say some of the activities were quite simple and obvious, can you explain what you mean by that?

MR TSHABALALA: I'm trying to explain that as Clive Makhubu was a commander and he was mostly aware of the activities of the student movement of that time, some of the things that were happening, or that we did, were obvious to him, some things that may not have been so obvious to a person who was not aware of the situation.

ADV SANDI: So if one got involved in those things which you say were obvious to Mr Makhubu, he would not have to give a report to him because he knew about them?

MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat the question.

ADV SANDI: Should one understand you to say that it was not always required that one should give reports every now and then as to where he goes?

MR TSHABALALA: ...(no English interpretation)

ADV SANDI: Okay, let's leave it, maybe it's too simple.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what you were saying weren't you is that you were a student activist, as was the deceased, and you carried on these activities.  And a lot of them were very well-known, and the students were holding protest meetings, everybody knew about it?  So there was no need to report things like that.

MR TSHABALALA: What I said was some things were obvious.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't have to tell him what you were doing in the line of student activities, but some things he didn't know about you would tell him about?

MR TSHABALALA: My problem with the question is that it is too broad.  If maybe you were referring yourself to a specific activity and date and enquire on that activity, maybe I could have a better response to the question.

CHAIRPERSON: What I mean is you were all, as I understand it, active people and you didn't rush along telling your commander every single thing you were doing, he knew that you were a student activist and you were taking part in these activities.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.
	And you personally knew in any case that the deceased would regularly go into the city centre into Johannesburg from Soweto to do his DPSC activities.

MR TSHABALALA: What time are you referring to?

MR RICHARD: The DPSC had its offices here in Johannesburg, the deceased would go there on a regular basis as a voluntary worker and do whatever a voluntary worker does, and you knew that.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I knew.

MR RICHARD: And you also knew that he went there very often.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I knew about that.

MR RICHARD: And it certainly would not be expected of anyone, particularly the deceased, to report to anyone when he was going to the DPSC or not, it was part of his normal activities at the time.

MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat.

MR RICHARD: Was it not completely normal and ordinary for the deceased to go into Johannesburg on a very regular basis and work at the offices of the DPSC?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And you personally knew that he did that?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's what I said.

MR RICHARD: And there was no expectation that he would have to report his trips to the DPSC to either you or anyone else.

MR TSHABALALA: There was no need to report to me, Sipho Tshabalala because I knew about it.

MR RICHARD: Or to Clive Makhubu.

MR TSHABALALA: I haven't said so.

MR RICHARD: I'm asking whether that's so.

MR TSHABALALA: There might be a need with regards to Clive.

MR RICHARD: You were there at the time, was there a need at the time?

MR TSHABALALA: I think there might have been.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't it depend on how long he was going to be away for?  If he was just going in in the morning to do his work and coming back in the afternoon, there was no need to report.

MR TSHABALALA: I must mention that Sicelo did not come home every evening.  What makes it difficult for me is that I am not aware, I do not know what period you are referring to as of this moment.  I can give better responses if I'm referred a specific time frame.