Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I want to put it in this way. I don't have a problem with the explanation you've given or the question you've asked. But the main problem here is regarding security and the co-ordination of the other committees for example welfare, economic and constitutional.

MR VAN ZYL: And you said yesterday in what I regarded was a very helpful introductory statement before we adjourned the proceedings, that the State Security Council was in fact an advisory body. It was a sub-committee of Cabinet that had no executive powers, is that correct?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: That's correct.

MR VAN ZYL: To say that notwithstanding the fact that it was an advisory body it was a very important body. It was a considerable importance was attached to the decisions taken there, the deliberations held. It was chaired by the then State President, who himself was previously the Minister of Defence and who took a direct interest in the security of the country. It was an important committee in other words.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: The State Security Council was a very important body subordinate to the Cabinet. The Cabinet took the main decisions, it was the main decision maker. And the State Security Council was on the same level as the other three committees, the other three Cabinet committees I've referred.

MR VAN ZYL: We have information that indicates and I wonder, I'm not putting it to you that it is correct. We have information that indicates that the secretary of the State Security Council in terms of the civil service had the status of a director general and that the secretaries of the other three sub-committees that you refer to had lesser status. Would you be able to comment on that?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I accept it could be like that but I explained yesterday that the one was a statutory body and the others not. Should there be a statutory body there was a difference in staffing. That's not a matter I know a lot about.

MR VAN ZYL: You said that the discussions that occurred at the State Security Council and the decisions taken at the security council would have been regarded as extremely important by members of the security forces, particularly the head of the SADF and the Commissioner of police who sat on that structure.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I don't think the security forces knew which decisions the State Security Council or the Cabinet or the other committees made. The minutes of State Security Council were not distributed among the security forces. It was accepted in the department. The department in the normal manner would distribute it in the department. Every department acted differently. The military acted differently than the police or justice.

MR VAN ZYL: State Security Council and that would include the head of the, the chief of the SADF and the Commissioner of police would have received the minutes recording the decisions taken at the State Security Council?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman, this goes over a very long period. Yesterday I tried to say that the procedures and the work method was dynamic. I want to put it in this way initially. Late in the 1970's, early 1980's I know that there was an instruction that only the Minister may receive minutes of the State Security Council. Afterwards there was an instruction that in certain aspects it could be used in departments. In other words, the other members could also receive that. I don't know exactly when that had happened. There was a situation that the State Security Council minutes had to be authorised by the Cabinet.

MR VAN ZYL: In certain instances the minutes of the State Security Council were not circulated to all the people who participated in the decision making processes in the State Security Council?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Correct.

MR VAN ZYL: That's correct? General Malan how then would for example the head of the SADF, chief of the SADF and the Commissioner of police, who were members of the State Security Council, as I understand statutory members, how would they know how to implement decisions taken?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Well they'll liaise with the Minister. The Minister will discuss it with them.

MR VAN ZYL: So the Minister would be at liberty to convey certain decisions taken but they would not have access to the full minutes?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Well that's originally.

MR VAN ZYL: But did that change?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Initially.

MR VAN ZYL: I beg your pardon. You said that?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: That was initially but afterwards they received the minutes too.

MR VAN ZYL: At what stage did that change?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I wouldn't know. I'm not a secretary. I wouldn't know what they were doing there. I think the best person that can supply you with a satisfactory answer will be the secretary of the State Security Council.

MR VAN ZYL: Okay. Thank you very much. General Malan would you accept, we've heard from many, many people who've testified before the Commission that from the early to mid-1980's there was a rapid deterioration in the security situation in the country. There were an increasing number of attacks, there were boycotts, there was destabilisation, there were terrorists attacks and in consequence thereof members of the State Security Council, members of the Cabinet, the leaders of the security forces urged that stronger and firmer steps be taken to address the deteriorating security situation to bring stability to the country?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman, the situation since the middle of the 1980's it is correct that it did deteriorate. I can't remember the correct date but the first state of emergency was declared in 1985. It was only in certain areas and in June a second state of emergency was declared for the whole of South Africa. But those actions indicated that the security forces were given more authority to act accordingly. The situation was of such a kind but if you refer to a firmer action, I don't know what you are meaning. Does it mean that they should be more draconian measures or they should act more purposefully. If you think more purposefully, in other words to have a more co-ordinated attempt.

MR VAN ZYL: urging by, and this is confirmed in the testimony provided for example by the Minister of law and order, Adriaan Vlok. That the then heads of the security forces and the political heads were urging the security services to take firmer steps to bring stability to the country?

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman I must object to the question. It's repetitive. You have a clear answer by the witness. He has stated categorically that there was definitely a deteriorating situation, steps were taken to address it and there was a definite policy to what he calls; "Doelgerigte optrede." To step that up and to contain the situation that's developed. The question has been answered.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman I will proceed. That would you agree that members of the security forces who were acting on the ground who were charged with the responsibility of maintaining law and order began to experience two influences from the mid-1980's

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Can you repeat that part please?

MR VAN ZYL: That members of the security forces on the ground, charged with maintaining law and order began to experience two new influences. The first of which was a growing militancy and unrest throughout the country and they began to feel that the country was - as many have said and as Commissioner van der Merwe and as General Geldenhuys, head of the SADF, that the country was beginning to slip into what is termed the fourth phase of revolutionary war was beginning to move increasingly into a state of undeclared war.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: What's the question?

MR VAN ZYL: I say would you agree with that? That, that's what they began to experience and that was their view of the deteriorating security situation.