Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was it the evidence you are giving before the Commission today, the same that you gave in Court?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Why is it different?  The evidence that you are giving  today is a different one to which you gave in Court, which I think was the same.  You also admitted in Court that you did this thing.  Why is it different now?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I told the Court that there is nothing I can say to them and that was a black Judge and we were fighting in the Judge's office, we were smoking dagga, there is actually nothing of progress, we were not even begging him with anything really.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was it a black Judge?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No Sir, I'm saying it was a white Judge, we wanted a black Judge.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter is requesting apology Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I understand that, but what I'm saying is that why your evidence is different to what you gave in Court regarding the incident as to what happened there.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: We did not want to talk to them because they did not have a black Judge.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have about two questions, Chairperson.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence you've stated that if you had received more money, you'd have given it to Pitso.  Why would you have given this money to Pitso?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Dlogodlo said everything should be given to Pitso because he said he will visit our group first.

MS MTANGA: Why didn't you give Pitso the tape cassette that you got, the tap?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I think I've explained when Mbandazayo asked me. I said I took the tape so that I could listen as to what transpired after we committed this act, so I took this radio cassette and the next day, as I switched it on, it resounded when the report was given out that things have happened and I left to inform Pitso.  "Pitso the police are now investigating, I heard on the radio" and he asked me:  "What happened to the tape that was in the car?"  I said:  "It is the same tape that actually informed me when I switched it on that the police are investigating" and he said to me:  "Please destroy it" and that I did.

MS MTANGA: On page 7 of the bundle, paragraph 2 on the 6th line, you state that
"We used the money that we got from the victim."
Is this correct?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I don't hear you well Ma'am.

MS MTANGA: In your affidavit on page 7, paragraph 2, line number 6, you stated that
"We used the money that we got from the victims",
that is yourselves, Pitso and yourself used the money, or yourself and Mologwai used the money that you got from the victims, what I'm asking you now is, is this correct, did you use this money?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, I explained that the R30 was given to us by Pitso.  He said we should pour diesel and the diesel in the car was not enough to take us to Bloem.  Now the silver was a few amount, he gave us those few silver coins and he said we should buy something to eat.  We spent it in the shop and that was it.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

ADV SANDI: Mr Tuis, can you explain, is there anything political about this incident?  What has this got to do with politics?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: We were ordered by Mbandazayo - we were sent by Dlogodlo to attack the whites in the Free State.  I am sorry for saying Mbandazayo, I'm really sorry, the name that I keep on hearing today is Mbandazayo, I'm really sorry for that.  We were sent by Dlogodlo to destroy the farmers in the Free State so that the Africans could get back their land and through their elimination we were supposed to get firearms and vehicles and the vehicles retrieved would be taken to a place where we were ordered to drop them off.  The firearms and the monies were to be given to Peleo and then he would go get them from Peleo.

ADV SANDI: But according to the papers, one of these women was sexually assaulted, do you know about that?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: You know how this came to my knowledge, it was - we were being sentenced by the Judge, a doctor arrived and he explained that the young white woman, it appears that she was raped, but what the doctor actually told the Court was that she was not raped at all.  The doctor said he conducted or she conducted a research and there was a rubber in her vagina that he or she discovered and due to that rubber, the rubber was still in tact, it was not ...(indistinct), so it means the woman was not raped and even inside the doctor could not find blood.

JUDGE DE JAGER: He found Pitso's semen on her.  How did that come about?  What was Pitso doing?  How did his semen come on the woman?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, the doctor said he or she discovered a little blood but how the blood got in there, I don't know.  Pitso is here, he will explain how the blood got there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps you could explain why you told the Court the following
"I would explain how the dogs were killed.  The whore that I killed seemed as if her stomach was very big, as if she is going to give birth.  I then decided to break open the stomach and to see if I can find the child in the stomach.  I took our a hunting knife that was very big, it was very clearly a knife that could kill somebody.  I stabbed her on the one side of her neck, that the knife appeared on the other side of the neck.  Afterwards I stabbed her in her private parts"
and then you said:
"I can see her daughter today in the Court, there she sits.  God as well as Satan was with her and helped her that I did not find her in that house that evening.  I would have taken out her eyes, I would have cut off her nose and would have cut out her private parts and I would have taken it with me."
Did you tell the Court that?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I explained earlier on that I did many things in the Judge's chamber, there are many things that I told the Judge.  Yes, that I mentioned to the Judge.  That I stabbed her on the private parts, no, I did not, I just stabbed the body, not the private parts, I did not stab her there.  It is true, I did mention that had we found the son and the daughter, we were going to kill them all, because they were always with their mother.  Had I found them in the house, I would have killed them all, we were not going to leave them, we were not going to spare them.  Unfortunately God was with them and God said to them:  "Don't go home, you are fine where you are, you'll only hear what happened."  Truly speaking, had they been there, I was going to kill them all.  I was actually out routing the tree.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja.  And the old lady who was killed was 87 years old.  Didn't you kill this young lady, or the younger one of 57 because you said that she once served you food in a dirty dish?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Let me explain this.  The issue of the dog's dish was seen by Pitso.  We were having our lunch and we were smoking and Pitso saw here when she went to fetch the dish from the dogs.  We did not see her because we were just chatting among ourselves, but Pitso saw her, but afterwards when she brought the food, Pitso stopped her and said:  "Missus, but I saw you going and get that dish from the dogs, I did not quite understand what you were doing, but I saw you approaching the dogs.  This is a dog's dish."  Yes, that happened, but that was not something to disturb me that much, up to a point of taking their lives.  What I was trying to say by referring to that issue, I was hiding the instructions that were given out.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't that said by Pitso?  But in any event, you worked at this farm whilst you were incarcerated for the car theft, that is in other words you had to work on this farm after you had been found guilty of this car theft.