Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

MR LAX: But you were both at the same briefing where this information would have been fed to both of you at the same time.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I assume so.

MR LAX: So how come he doesn't know anything about it at all?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well certainly one possibility is that you made this stuff up when you put it into your amnesty application.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, that's not the way it was.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why should the Committee not find that?   The primary source of the information denies having any knowledge about this and Mr van Zyl's the only person who has been able to give us any detail whatsoever concerning any kind of investigation made into the Kewtown Youth.  You when we ask you on what basis did you come to these conclusions, where did you get the information?  All you can tell us is Joe Verster told me that.  Full stop.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Didn't you just copy this out from somebody else's amnesty application because you appear to have no independent knowledge of these events yourself?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Of the events?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, when I ask you for details...

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I can't remember the details.

MR LAX: Sorry, you didn't answer the question though which was, did you not maybe copy this from someone else's application?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, this was drafted by my advocate, I read it through and it's correct as far as I'm concerned.

MR LAX: Well, did he maybe not copy it from someone else's application?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That I wouldn't know.

MR LAX: Well either you or - if you don't know that that's what he might have done, did the same advocate prepare all these applications?  For example, did the same advocate prepare Gen Webb's application as prepared yours?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't remember, I really can't remember who drafted these applications, this was done by Advocate Hattingh.

UNKNOWN: May we just show the witness the date? That will assist him.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It was done by Adv Flip Hattingh.  Now I don't know whether Gen Webb also was his client as well, I don't know.

MR LAX: But the bottom line is that you don't know how that got in there, did you tell your advocate those facts?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, it was conveyed to him.

MR LAX: But as Mr Kahanovitz suggested to you, you don't have any other recollection of it, you're just assuming that because it's there.  You don't remember that.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I told him this information was conveyed to me by Mr Verster, conveyed to me or to us.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The Khayelitsha information as well?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, yes that as well, because I know that information came from Gen Webb's side and from Mr Verster, information came down to us and which told us that that is what is being planned.

MR LAX: How are you able to distinguish, I'm just interested, between what came from Verster and Webb and what came from Van Zyl and his people?  How are you even able to unpack it at this stage?  I mean, to be absolutely honest with us, how are you able to distinguish who gave you what information at this stage?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It is difficult, it really is difficult to be absolutely correct today, but the fact remains that there was information from the ground given by van Zyl and then also from Verster's information structures, his own structures.

MR LAX: I'm just trying to be sure how sure you are.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I was certain that that information was the information which we got before the project was carried out.

MR LAX: Ja, but you're not actually sure where it came from?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Except for the way I've just explained it to you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger, can I show you something?  Hold your finger on page 140, which is your application dealing with the Early Learning Centre, if you look at Mr Basson's application at page 43, you will see the paragraphs are word for word the same.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, it is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And they come off the same word processor.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Definitely.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, where did the lawyer who drafted this get the information from?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: He got it from us.  He consulted the whole lot of us around the table and spoke to us.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Isn't it strange, very strange, that you and Mr Basson have word for word, exactly the same recollection of these events?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That was how it was put together by our advocate and how it was given to us.  We read it and at the time we thought it was in order to sign it as such.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, let's carry on.  Page 142, if you could read those three paragraphs up to the top of page 143 and tell us whether they are accurate.
MR BURGER
"The information that we received further indicated that that gang or group were planning further bomb explosions in order to disrupt the election.  The source which gave us the information also told us that the gang regularly had their meetings in a hall in the Early Learning Centre in Athlone.
			Because the source was not prepared to reveal his identity, no police action could be taken against the gang.  Under these circumstances it was decided that we should act against them to try to intimidate them and frighten them off so that they would not continue with their actions as set out above.
			Thereupon the decision was made to cause a limpet mine to explode in the hall where that group usually met.  In order to ensure that there would be no injuries in the explosion, it was decided to provide the limpet mine with the remote control detonation device so that the exact time on which it exploded could be controlled.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you happy with that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now the strange thing about this version, about the source ...(intervention)

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Just a moment please, I just want to check something.  No, I think this paragraph 2 here, the information which we received above which indicated that that group, they were planning further bomb explosions to disrupt the election, the source which gave us the information etc. etc., the source which gave us that information was actually Col Verster, that is now relating to the bomb explosions and also in respect of the attacks they wanted to launch.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh so it's Col Verster who was unwilling to give evidence in a Court of Law?  That must follow from your answer.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.
MR KAHANOVITZ
"Since the source was not prepared to disclose his identity, no police action could be taken against this gang."

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I think that the information in this matter came from three sources namely Mr van Zyl's source on the ground, secondly Col Verster and the Intelligence Structure and somewhere in this whole application, I think things were a bit - have gone awry, they've become a little bit confused, but the truth of the matter is that there were sources like Gakkie, like Verster with his own Intelligence structures and Gen Webb's structures and those are the things that caused us to act against the Early Learning Centre.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So what's your version now?  Your version is all of these sources were unwilling to disclose their identity, is that your version now, that we should...

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr van Zyl, Mr van Zyl's source.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you've just told us we mustn't read the word "die bron" in the singular because there were "bronne", isn't that your version?  Can you remember what your version is?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, Mr Kahanovitz, you're being very technical about this little matter, but I'm now talking about the source, not just the bomb, the source, I'm telling you the truth.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You tell us how we must read that.