Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-03

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, that, Mr Chairman, I can most definitely not verify, because the political say, whether we talk about political parties, with Justice Margo that was never ever part of his make-up to come forward with a political expression that, you are working in the hands of the ANC, or for that matter in the hands of any other political party.  That, I can most definitely say to you, knowing him through the experiences that I've gone through in these investigations, that's not his approach, but if he's convinced that someone would come forward with a statement or an allegation that's of no substance, he can be firm to stop that, because we had a lot of real information to consider, and you can't loose time on something if it's not of substance and prove by solid evidence.  That is a possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us examine that.  Let's examine Judge Margo in the context of his uprightness, and I'm not challenging for once your observation and your view of him.  Now, during the course of that sort of enquiry, would you expect Judge Margo to invite anyone to his residence in the circumstances where the person came by himself in the absence of other interested parties, during the Commission of Enquiry, whilst it existed, would you expect that to be happening?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I won't say that won't be possible with him, but whether he will react to that, because he was always, when he heard something, wherever, he came back and he put it to us as the legal representatives, that's now in the case of the Helderberg enquiry, Advocate Southwood and Bob Nugent, he's a Judge today, Bob Nugent was the junior advocate with Brian Southwood, and then we would have said to him, yes, but let them come forward and let's assess the situation where everybody could be heard.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the procedure, that's the normal procedure, but would you expect Judge Margo to have invited to his home a person who was a material party, for instance a pilot, a person who had now become Manager, who had been given on evidence the tape from the UCR, would you have expected him to have invited that person, on that person's evidence, to his residence whilst this thing was taking place?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I wouldn't have - I won't expect that, but I can't say it hasn't happened, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not saying that it has happened - well, we have now evidence, I'm trying to say the mere fact that you have a view of Judge Margo as having been a morally upright person, etc, should not by itself be conclusive or sufficient for you to say some of the things could not have happened, because a witness here yesterday told us under oath that he went to Judge Margo's chambers, when this specific question was put, in denying, in an effort to deny that this meeting took place, they said the only time that he went and saw Judge Margo was not in his chambers, but at his home, at his invitation.  And when he was getting out there, he's sure that the Flight Engineers were leaving, also having been there at the invitation of the Judge.  I ask myself the question ...(intervention)

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, that's possible, but I can't verify it, I can't say it's impossible, most definitely not.

CHAIRPERSON: But what I want to get at is, would you consider it to have been highly irregular and improper of a sitting Judge, whilst handling a sensitive Commission of Enquiry of that nature, to be inviting people in that sort of fashion to his residence in the absence of the attorneys and in the absence of the other parties?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, there I must say to you that Judge Margo has always said that this Enquiry is an inquisitorial enquiry, in other words it's ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That may well be, but it must be conducted in circumstances where the Enquiry is not only just, but is seen to be just, not only even-ended, but is seen to be even-ended, would you agree with me that, as a lawyer, if there was a suggestion that a Judge had invited people to his residence in the absence of the other parties, in the absence of their legal representatives, that would have been irregular.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Most definitely that would have been irregular, but I can also say that if that would have happened and something would have come out of that meeting, he would have insisted on getting that evidence submitted to the full Board.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the problem, because now what comes out of that meeting is that, he made a suggestion that people should cover up evidence, that's one of the allegations.  That's why then the irregularity becomes even more important.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I hear you, but I can't comment on that.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps I should just remind you what, well maybe it will remind you when I tell you what people said further,
"We went back inside...", that's after the tea-break, "and said we will only withdraw if our recommendations are accepted.  We were also saying that our Chairman is not present..." the Chairman of the Flight Association, ...(intervention)

MR VAN RENSBURG: The Flight Engineers now?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Flight Engineers Association.
"and we said that we cannot completely withdraw the report without his consent.  We were just hoping that they will consider the two fire theory.  The Chairperson was then flown back from England immediately and summoned to Judge Margo's house, where he was persuaded to withdraw the report.  He came out of that meeting telling us that this was done for fear and finance, the two wrong reasons."

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, I can't comment on that, I'm sorry, there I can't say anything.

UNKNOWN: It just strikes me as completely absurd that R28 million is spent on recovering the black box and then you listen to only a small part of it to find the true cause of the accident, and then determine at the end you can't find the true cause.

MR VAN RENSBURG: But what I must state categorically, Mr Chairman, I can't verify or confirm that meeting, because that meeting at Judge Margo's house that I am now hearing of here, I have not been aware of that, I can assure you.

CHAIRPERSON: But are you then denying - that's technical, I'm sorry, Ms Terreblanche, but to the extent that the meeting or one of the meetings suggested to have taken place in  chambers ...(intervention)

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, that has taken place for sure, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: But what you deny about that is the fact that Judge Margo persuaded people not to follow certain in the national interest, because of money and all that, are you denying that?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, most definitely, I can't verify that at all, and I have nothing even to say in support of that, so as far as ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You were supposed to be present you see, that's why I want you to commit yourself to a version.  Are you saying it never happened, or if it happened you have forgotten about it, what is your ...(intervention)

MR VAN RENSBURG: I recall the meeting, but I do not recall any allegation of, do this or do this because it's costing the country a lot of money or that finance was at all involved.  It was argued on merits whenever we were present in his chambers and something came to the table, he always had the way of doing it, this is what has been put to me, what do you guys say, and then he addresses that to all the members of the Board, that was a meeting outside the hearing, but in his chambers with all the Board members present.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I get you clearly then, are you saying you don't recall it because it never happened, or you don't recall it because these things took place 11/12 years ago and it may have been said, except that not it is a serious change of mind.

MR VAN RENSBURG: These meetings may have taken place, I just can't recall the detail of any allegation with regard to finance or what it will cost the country, but that meetings ...(intervention)