Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : Why were they stabbing him, what happened?

ANSWER: They arrived there searching for myself and mylittle brother.

<UNKNOWN>: : When you say they arrived there, what do youmean?

ANSWER: The arrived at his place where he stays.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did they say?

ANSWER: They wanted me, Molifi Sokatse Kudu and TslathaSukudu, which is Mohahleli, and he said to them these people arenot here and they got into the house to search for themselves,they couldn't find us and they started stabbing him.

<UNKNOWN>: : In which year?

ANSWER: It was early in 1992, at about February month.

<UNKNOWN>: Which month?

ANSWER: It was about February month.

<UNKNOWN>: : That is when this thing happened?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now these people that harassed your brother,who were those people?

ANSWER: These were the Three Million Gang members.

<UNKNOWN>: : How do you know that they were the Three Millionthat harassed your brother?

CHAIRPERSON: : Am I right in thinking that the victim in thisparticular case, the victim in this tragic matter in respect ofwhich  the applicant wants application, had nothing to do withthe Three Million Gang?  If that is so, I'm not stopping you fromgoing into the details of the Three Million Gang, maybe you maycare to explain to us what the relevance of the Three MillionGang is when the victim in this case had nothing to do with theThree Million Gang?

ATTORNEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman what I'mtrying to achieve here is to set the scene by giving the backgroundof the life that the accused, that is the applicant here led beforehe committed the crime that he committed later on.   Inasmuchas I have to lead evidence of the applicant's upbringing and I'mof the view that maybe it might help the Committee to understandbetter his psychological make-up at the time when the offencewas committed.   I am hoping to round off this line of questioningto get to the actual deed, which will not take a long time fromnow.

<UNKNOWN>: : And then they assaulted your brother, theyharassed him and thereafter were you sought by the police?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : You ended up staying in a place called "theold location" here in Kroonstad?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : That is during the time when this incidenttook place?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : I want you to explain to the Committee whydid you go and stay in that old township?

ANSWER: That is a township where we would go, it wasclose to Gelukwaarts, you must know that some of the SDU memberswe left on Saturday running away from the police and we went tothe old township.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why were you running from the police?

ANSWER: They were linking us with a case for a ThreeMillion Gang who was murdered.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was it a murder case?

ANSWER: Yes it was a murder case.

<UNKNOWN>: : You ran to the old township?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now I want you to explain to this Committeewhile you were still at the old location how long did you staythere in hiding before this incident?   This happened on 30 October1992.

ANSWER: I would stay a day in a place and run away toa different place for a day, just running away from the police.

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you.   Tell us about the incident whereyou met the deceased?

ANSWER: It was on a Saturday on 30 October 1992, we wererunning from Gelekwats, I was together with my two compatriots.  We were heading for the old location.   When we arrived at theold location we alighted from a taxi but on our way into the oldtown, location, we met a white person in there and when we metthis white person, because he was a white person and we are beingsought by the white people, I saw, I just saw an enemy by seeingthis white person.

<UNKNOWN>: : I want you to explain a few things accordingto what you have just said now.   You were with people?

ANSWER: I was together with two compatriots.

<UNKNOWN>: : Their names?

ANSWER: It's Pusa Pule Radaki.

<UNKNOWN>: : This white person when you met him, did youknow this white person?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was it your first time to see the white person?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : What time was it?

ANSWER: It was about past 12, to 1.

<UNKNOWN>: : During the day, in the evening?

ANSWER: During the day.

<UNKNOWN>: : You approached this person?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you talk with him?

ANSWER: As I was wearing a combat jacket leather withANC flags and badges he said it seems as if you are a leader ofthese people and what he said gave me an indication that he wasone of the people looking for me.

<UNKNOWN>: : I am saying did he say anything to you or yousaid anything to him?

ANSWER: No I didn't say anything to him.

<UNKNOWN>: : But did he say anything to you?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : And from there the decision that you took thatyou want to assault this person, when did you take that decision?  Did you take the decision at that moment?

ANSWER: Can you please repeat your question?

<UNKNOWN>: : You now meet this white person and you seethis person for the first time, he's unknown to you, he did nothingto you, you approached them and then I asked you did you speakto him and you answered me.   Now the next question is you decidedto assault him, did you take that decision at that moment whileyou were still with him or was it a pre-planned thing?

ANSWER: No this thing happened the minute I met him,it was because of the white people harassing the black peoplein the townships.

<UNKNOWN>: : I now understand, you took the decision atthat moment.   Explain to this Committee what you did to thatperson?

ANSWER: I took out my knife and I stabbed him three holesand he ran away and then I couldn't catch him, I went back tothe base.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you intending to kill him by stabbinghim?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did you do thereafter?

ANSWER: I then (indistinct) and he ran away and I wentback to the base where we used to hide away from the police.

<UNKNOWN>: : You were convicted?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now in your murder charge for killing the deceasednow in this case, did you plead guilty?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : But you were found guilty?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Don't you know the deceased as being a memberof the Three Million Gang?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : Didn't you know the deceased as a person whowas involved with the police?

ANSWER: Meeting him as a white person and the talk thathe said to me I perceived him he was a police at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now let me ask you this question straight becauseit's a simple question and try to give me a very short version.  Why did you kill the deceased?

ANSWER: At that moment I was looking at my enemy.

<UNKNOWN>: : I want to know what was happening in your mind,why do you see a person, you should have met many people on thatday who were not your enemies, now why did you see the deceasedas your enemy?

ANSWER: The police were looking for me, especially thewhite police.   Now to see a white person in the township I sawmy enemy.

<UNKNOWN>: : You saw the deceased as the enemy because ofthe stand you took in politics?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why do you say that?    Remember this AfricanNational Congress Organisation was teaching the people that SouthAfrica belong to everybody who lives in it, blacks and white,now why did you see this white person as this person to harass?

ANSWER: My stand in politics, I was still a young andmy understanding was still young.   The decision that I took wasbecause of the experience that I had, I thought by doing thatit would be an indication to the existing system.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now this vision from the ANC that all of usare God's children and we have to respect each other, blacks andwhite, have you realised that the ANC was preaching non-racialism?

ANSWER: I was not yet aware at that time but any whiteperson I regarded as my oppressor, that was the standard I wasin politics.

<UNKNOWN>: : I see here in your application form you usethe word "racism".