Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-15

MR RAUTENBACH: Mrs White, let me just get clarity on it, see whether I understand you correctly.  When you - we're now back at the time of the conversation, not after the murder, at the time of the conversation, when you discussed, when you had this telephone discussion with Janine you didn't take her seriously because she always used to make all sorts of threats and all sorts of, she used to say all sorts of things, am I correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Well yes, you could only take it to a point for so long.

MR RAUTENBACH: Ja, but earlier on when I asked you, when we were dealing with your mind-set at the time of the conversation, you made it quite clear that you didn't read anything into it, that to you it wasn't that important because she used to do it and you didn't take her seriously, am I correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Quite correct, yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: Why was it necessary then, I mean you didn't take her seriously, mentioning, saying to your brother in a telephone discussion that you had with him subsequent to your discussion with Janine, to say in that conversation: "Are you going to leave the Security Force"?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Because we always had discussions.  I mean I'd had a discussion with Janine, I would obviously impart the information over to my brother.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes, but you didn't take her seriously at all.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, I didn't take her seriously.  We actually used to make jokes ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: I see, so it was almost like to say, it was almost like saying to him;  Michael, by the way I had a discussion with Janine you know, tell me are you going to leave the Security Branch, and he says;  ha, you bet.  Was it that type of discussion?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, it was not that kind of discussion.

MR RAUTENBACH: Well this is how it sounds.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No.  We would talk to each other and I'd say - I'm not talking about that particular conversation, but in prior conversations I'd say: "Mike, what is going on because Janine has phoned again and she's making threats again" you know, that kind of thing, and he would say to me: "Don't worry about it, just ignore it."  I'm talking about that kind of conversation.  And that for me was exact, the exact same thing for me that happened that night.  I did not take that conversation very seriously.

MR RAUTENBACH: Tell me, Mrs White, when you - and I suppose we can, just to get back to what you considered to be serious and what you considered not to be serious.  I think we've established now that after the murder obviously this was one of the most important factors that made you suspect the Security Branch, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Well it wasn't one of the most important factors, no, it could have been one of the factors.  It wasn't one thing like I said to you, it was a whole lot of things and I didn't take one specific thing and say okay, this is going to be my reasoning.  My reasoning might not have even been the right reasoning, but for whatever it is, I started getting the impression ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: Well I just want to put it to you, Mrs White, that earlier on, I'm talking about minutes ago, you conceded that that was probably the most important factor in you suspecting the Security Branch.  Do you want to alter that evidence?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, ...(indistinct) the most important factors you said would probably be and I agreed with you.

MR RAUTENBACH: You agreed yes, you agreed with me, that's the point.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: Do you now want to qualify it again?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Well I'm just saying it was probably ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: Do you want to qualify it?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: ... it was probably one of the factors yes, but I never specifically thought about it.  I didn't say that is going to be a factor.

MR RAUTENBACH: Now you agreed with me that it was at least at best for you an important factor even if you want to qualify your answer, at best for you an important factor.  Do you recall that you had a discussion later on with - let's see if I can date it, it seems to me round about May 1992, with the investigating officer, Mr Steyn?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I had many, I can't ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: You had many.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: ... remember the exact dates.

MR RAUTENBACH: Can you recall that you made, that you told him at some stage, as he puts it, and I want to know whether you can recall this conversation
"Judy's saying now for the first time that the deceased blackmailed many persons, for example policemen, judges and other people in high positions and that the deceased worked for the ANC"
Can you recall anything, can you recall that you told him that?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: You'd have to repeat that in English for me because I don't understand all those Afrikaans words.

MR RAUTENBACH: Okay.
"Judy now for the first time says that the deceased blackmailed many people, like policemen, judges, ministers and high placed people, VIP's, and that she worked for the ANC"
I just want to know, if you say to me you never said that, just say so.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Sorry no, that's the first time I'm hearing that ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: The first time.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: ... I would never have used words "ministers" and "cabinet" ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: First time.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: ... and things like that.

MR RAUTENBACH: You never told him that.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: But I would definitely have mentioned, or I can remember a conversation with Detective Steyn, where I mentioned that yes, Janine had admitted to working for the ANC and, sorry not working for the ANC, threatening to take documentation and stuff to the ANC.  I would never have said that she threatened ministers and that, that I wouldn't have said.

MR RAUTENBACH: You never told him that?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I might have said she'd phoned his, Mike's bosses up and spoken to and that, because that I'd heard about, but definitely not ministers.  I think he might have just got a bit carried away with the ministers there.

MS GCABASHE: Mr Rautenbach, just a page reference please for that? - just for the record.  Page reference?

MR RAUTENBACH: It is part of the investigating diary, I don't know what's its number, C75 and C76.

MS GCABASHE: Which bundle is that in?

MR CHASKALSON: Sorry Mr Chairman, maybe I can just clarify.  This document is one of a number of documents that all of the parties here have had access to, but haven't actually been part of any formal bundle as yet.  So possibly what we should do is, we should simply arrange for copies of the diary to be made and we can hand them in and give them a bundle number.
MR WAGENER(?): Mr Chairman, if I may just assist, bundle 4, page 25 - it's already been included.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that page?

MR WAGENER: 25.  Now Mrs White, during the same discussion with the investigating officer, Mr Steyn, he says that you also told him - and I'm going to just translate from C76, that you said that you didn't believe that it was black who killed Janine.  Can you recall such a, that you said something of that nature to him?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, I don't recall.  You know, as I said we had lots, we had lots of meetings, I don't recall everything that was said in every single meeting.

MR RAUTENBACH: Can you recall that you - it also says that you suspected, you actually told him that you suspected certain people of being responsible for this horrible deed, can you remember that? - that you actually said to him: "I actually suspect people".  That is what he says.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, I told that I, I actually told him that I thought the Security, Michael's colleagues in the Security Branch were responsible for it.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes, and did you give him a specific name of a person that you suspected?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I don't recall giving him a name.