Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR KOOPEDI: But then him being settled, him agreeing that, or believing that you were sent by Betty, did he not want to know: "Why do I meet Betty in South Africa"?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, he did not ask such a question.

MR KOOPEDI: And your evidence is that he also came voluntarily to South Africa, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.
	Mr Thulo, when you were driving with Betty from where you fetched her to Ladybrand, how long did you take, could you estimate?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, approximately 45 to 50 minutes.

MR MAPOMA: Was there any conversation between yourselves or anyone of you in particular, with Betty, on the way?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I don't recall.

MR MAPOMA: No, I think you must remember.  You are driving, you are travelling from Lesotho with somebody, the four of you, you can't remember whether any word was spoken to that person who has just come into the vehicle, in your company?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, it is so, I don't recall.

MR MAPOMA: When you went through the border gate, at the Lesotho gate, leaving Lesotho with her, did you produce any documentation at the gate?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: I suppose because you were known by the Lesotho police.  Is that the reason why you did not have to produce any document?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would believe so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And this female person you were going with, the four of you being men, not being known to this border gate, were you not asked about - did the Lesotho not ask about her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying they did not ask her to produce something, a passport to leave Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I said so, Chairperson, they did not.

MR MAPOMA: Can you offer any reason why?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: In my understanding I believed that because they knew us there, they did not suspect that we will do anything illegal or make any person cross the border without legal documents.

MR MAPOMA: And when you left with KK, tied, did you go through the gate with him, observed by the officials?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, we passed the border.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, and what I want to find out is, how did you go past the border with somebody tied at the hands and the officials not asking anything about the person?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you assuming the officials saw this person tied, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Let me rephrase, Chairperson.
	Did the officials see that KK was tied?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, the border officials did not see that, because no-one came near the car.

MR MAPOMA: What do you mean?  Are you saying the car was just allowed to go past without even being searched?

CHAIRPERSON: That was his evidence, that their car was never searched.

MR MAPOMA: I suggest that these activities of you taking people from one country to another, through the border gate of Lesotho, must have been by you in connivance with the Lesotho officials.  What do you say to that suggestion?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't agree, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Why?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not believe that the border officials would associate themselves with the Security Branch' duties.

MR LAX: But with respect, Sir, they knew you were policemen, they saw you with unknown people in the car, they knew you were taking people out of Lesotho and back.  Previous witnesses said that they were co-operating with you, the Lesotho police.  Isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, there was a co-operation, but I don't believe that that co-operation would go to extent to involve these kinds of issues.

MR LAX: Well they see four people come in a car, in a kombi, they see the kombi come through the border into Lesotho, with four people in, they see the same kombi go out now with five people in it, one of them a woman, isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you say to us that you don't think that that's co-operation.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I said there was a co-operation, but I still repeat that I don't think that they knew exactly what was happening with those people.

MR LAX: What was happening that was unlawful?  What was happening that was a crime there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believed so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I'm asking you to tell me what was a crime.  What crime was being committed there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, to make people cross the border without proper documents was a crime, because they would be in a particular country without permission.

MR LAX: Is that the only crime?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believe so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.
	Now when you arrived at the farm, your evidence is that - I mean with Betty, your evidence is that Mr Robertshaw, Mr Jagga and Mr Jantjie got into a certain room with Betty and you were in a separate room.  Do you recall that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I recall, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Why were you in a separate room and not in the room where they got in with Betty?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: They had reasons that I should not be in the same room with them.

MR MAPOMA: Who told you that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: ...(no interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is, why did you go into a separate room?  Because you say you went into a separate room and you think that they had reasons.  Were you told to go into a separate room?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the last question was: "By whom, who told you to go into a separate room?"

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was told by Mr Jagga.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.
	Did he give reasons why you must not be in that room where they were?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ask why are you excluded?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson, I did not.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Thulo, I find it strange.  Remember, you were not a driver there, you were a member of the Security Branch, a member of that unit working together with them, you must have received clear reasons why you must not be involved and you must disclose those reasons to this Committee, as to why were you not in that room, why were you excluded?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, let me clarify this.  I would not ask why I should not go with them in the same room.  We were working under a situation where you would not ask.  There's a document you had to sign that you would work in a particular procedure and then again that you would only be allowed to know what you are supposed to know and then you should not ask questions about things which were not meant for you.

MR MAPOMA: You will recall that when you were asked a question by Mr Koopedi as to why you were not involved in some of these things, you said that there were certain sensitive things that were doing done which you had not to know.  Do you recall that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I said there would be things which happened and I was not supposed to know them, then that is the reason why I did not know those things.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  You said sensitive things, I must remind you.  Did you not say that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I said so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  I take it that it's one of those sensitive things that were to be done at the time when you were excluded from that room?  I suggest that, what do you say to that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It might be the reason, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And you said your superiors would be in a better position to explain those sensitive things, you are not in a position to expose them.  Do you remember that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I recall so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And these superiors you're talking about, who are they?