Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: There was a certificate for recommendation for work that was done satisfactorily, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: I see.  In other words, commendation for work well done?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: And who is that Commissioner who commended?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I'm not sure, I think it was Commissioner van der Merwe.  I'm not sure about that, Sir.

MR MOERANE: Do you know whether or not at Island Rock, the members of C1 who had taken part in the first incident, were congratulated, commended?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I don't know, Sir.

MR MOERANE: Mr Vermeulen, who told you that you could engage in illegal activities against the ANC in particular?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: All the instances where I was involved, I had the instructions, specific instructions, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Yes, yes, but you see this must have started somewhere.  You know that as a policeman you were not obliged to follow illegal instructions, not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Well who told you that you could, that you could not disobey, if anyone, such instructions?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Our orders that we received from our commanders we just did it properly as was expected from us, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: No-one told you that you could refuse to carry out an illegal, a patently illegal order?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: So would it be correct to say that it was the culture at C1, that illegal acts against the ANC were acceptable?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, we can put it that way, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Were there any limits placed to the illegality?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I don't know, I think for every action that we would have done or executed, we first had to consult with Mr de Kock and we wouldn't have done anything without his consent, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but as an individual, did you know of any limits beyond which you couldn't go?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I don't know, I was never instructed about any limits, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: You know that in a war situation there are certain limits, which have been codified in various protocols, like the Geneva Convention and the various protocols to that?  Treatment of prisoners of war and the rules of engagement in war, you know that?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I know that, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Well did you observe any such codes in your conduct?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: No.  In fact you were actually a law unto yourselves so to speak.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: We can put it that way, Sir.

MR MOERANE: I see.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Moerane.  Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any re-examination?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no re-examination, thank you, Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, have you any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, thank you, Chair.
	Mr Vermeulen, the second incident, after the shooting you say you were told to stand by the bus.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, you can put it that way, Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you have anything to do with checking the weapons that the four deceased had on them?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I can't remember.  I would have looked at it, but I don't think I handled it at any stage.

ADV GCABASHE: What I'm interested in is in finding out if any one of them had fired a shot at all, just by checking the magazines to see if they were still fully loaded or not.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I didn't check the magazines, but I'm quite sure no shots were fired from out the bus.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Just on that, Mr Vermeulen, were you regarded as an expert when it got to firearms and weapons?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I would say so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you did say you were the one who was ordered to oil the firearms and get them into a reasonable condition.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your - yes, thank you.  Sorry, Mr Malan, do you have any questions?

MR MALAN: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are there any questions arising out of questions put?  Thank you, Mr Vermeulen, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Thank you, Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED