Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Measuring successes, we measured successes through, as I said we relied on media but there would be a time when one would have to verify and so forth but largely that's how we do.  For an action taken or executed, that in itself counts.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  Given that, would you not have seen reports of heard reports over the media about other blasts at other outlets of Wimpy?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Judge, we are talking about a situation of about almost 10 years ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.  I do not recall personally the other except in the recent past.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, you must have, immediately after this operation had been conducted, seen either on TV or in the printed media that the severity of casualties suffered in this incident were those of civilians?  And you have stated that the policy of the ANC was to attack the military or the security forces. Indeed that was the report you received from Mr Ndlovu, that this outlet was frequented by the members of the Security Branch.  What do you think you have achieved, taking into account the fact that you are unable to identity a single member of the security force, who fell casualty to this operation?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: It's a bit difficult one as I was saying before.  It is true firstly, that we were interested in papers and reports and so on about what happened on the day in question, the 30th of July, which by the way was the anniversary of the South African Communist Party, we were interested indeed.
	However, the question of the security personnel, it has in fact been - I think we all know as South Africans, we are not coming from outside, that always where enemy has been attacked they would always sensor or they would always conceal or hide that kind of fact, such that they would always portray the ANC as a terrorist organisation.  No organisation for that matter has championed the course of freedom, democracy and nation building like the African National Congress.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Sigasa, there are no further questions from me.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chair.
	Mr Sigasa, this Wimpy Bar, how far was it from the initial target, when you switched from going to the initial target when you were told that they frequent the Wimpy Bar?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I can only be able to say it's more than 200 metres away but several metres away, but in terms of the actual distance, in terms of figures I'm unable to say that but it is within the proximity as I'm saying because the Benoni Station is here, railway station and also the police station is here and Wimpy down in town.

ADV MOTATA: No, I just wanted an approximate distance. I know that is difficult because you wouldn't have measured.  That suffices.
	What I want to know, did the information received about the reconnaissance that this Wimpy Bar is placed in a shopping complex?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Indeed, indeed, the report says as you are saying Chairperson, except the only thing also that we want to add is that the enemy personnel was not moving in isolation or its own country in its own boundaries, it was in fact actively interacting with ordinary people and so on.  So yes, we know that, it came to our attention.

ADV MOTATA: The bombing device obtained from the dead letter box, did you know its power in relation to the target selected?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: The impact I do not remember whether we used a mini limpet or a limpet mine, a super limpet mine.  I think we used a limpet mine, not a mini one, not a small one but a super limpet mine.  That is what we used.

ADV MOTATA: And wouldn't you say that for instance is too powerful to be used in a complex where even civilians would be caught in that blast?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well it depends on the nature of the target, target intended, to select the weaponry and the devices themselves.  We saw it fit to use that kind of an explosive at the time.

ADV MOTATA: Let's just return to what my sister was asking you about constantly, that is the reconnaissance of Wimpy and the security personnel who frequented Wimpy, according to the information or reports received from Ndlovu.  Firstly you said you were meeting on Wednesdays, do you recall that?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Now we know it's a long time ago, 10 years to date, could you give us an approximation, every Wednesday is fine but an approximation of the time taken?  Obviously it couldn't have been years, but if we could probably have an idea about months that you took.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: There was no specific time limit basically in regard to our meetings.  Depending firstly on the place, Sarati(?) does not draw the unnecessary attention, or secondly, the agenda item that is to be discussed, so sometime we would take or sometimes we would even adjourn and meet the following week or sometimes it would take probably three hours or so, so there was no exact time spent.

ADV MOTATA: For instance let's say you had the initial target, being the Security Police and their station and you had to change because you realised there is a much more way of achieving your objective by saying: "Now we have recognised that the frequent Wimpy". In relation to that, when was this somersault of the actual target to the Wimpy Bar?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well I wouldn't call it somersault.  I remember on that, because our plan was to celebrate or commemorate the anniversary, we planned something like more than five operations and in those operations we were discussing about those, and of course we might decide on one but depending on any information that comes up during the course of discussion, we would always move to and from and so on.  But I wouldn't say that we spent so much time on this particular matter.

ADV MOTATA: Let's make it easier, in the sense that you received information from your fellow comrade, Ndlovu, that the Security Police frequent he Wimpy Bar, did you have information of how many members of the Security Branch go to Wimpy?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well we didn't have the number but we know that there were many.  It stems from the fact that they were meeting, as I said before, that they were meeting every Saturday to give in reports and so on and they would also then go after their reports or meetings and so on, they would then go for lunch or dining.  So it is based on that, but the exact number I am unable to you know, say.

ADV MOTATA: Did you have after submission of the reports, when they would go to Wimpy?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well the information, depending of course on how long they take, but they would come in in the morning and so on and before lunch, lunch I would imagine that what I'm talking about I'm referring to 1 o'clock, before lunch they would in fact go out.  Sometimes they would knock earlier than that, sometimes they would come in at around about 11, 12, 1 and so on.

ADV MOTATA: So in relation to the number of the security people after submitting their reports and going to Wimpy, did you take into consideration the volume of people, whether the number of the Security Police would outnumber the civilians who would visit Wimpy?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Firstly it's important to draw the attention to the fact that in the second world war, the people who suffered, the majority of the people who suffered was not nazism or nazists but ordinary civilians, true.
	I'm saying therefore, in terms of that in our view, a loss of one life of a security personnel is too great to send a demoralising message on the part of the security personnel.

ADV MOTATA: Your submission was to the effect that some of the attacks was to strengthen the propaganda that would make people aware of the existence of the MK's, the ANC people within the country by attacking military forces, did I hear you correctly there?