Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-17

DR TSOTSI: Now you say on the night after the police had dispersed a meeting of the SRC, a meeting convened by the students SRC, you say that
"That night we decided to attack the police."
Is that correct?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Because they harassed the SRC during the day.

DR TSOTSI: And that is - was that before or after the shooting of the deceased?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: It is after they've harassed the SRC that we made a decision to attack the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Motlokoa, who put up the stones, the sort of roadblock?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: They were put there by the members of the SRC.  They put them there during the day and some other items.

MR SIBANYONI: As you were patrolling the area, what was the purpose, what were you looking for?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We were actually looking for the police because we knew that they will also patrol that area.

MR SIBANYONI: And if you would find the police, what would you do with them?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We will shoot him and disarm him.

MR SIBANYONI: Where is Justice today?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I've never seen him since I was arrested.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the deceased dressed in uniform at the time of the killing?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: No, he was not dressed in uniform.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he driving a marked police vehicle?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He was driving a police car with numberplates indicating that it was a police van.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said that Mr John Kubeka was here, whereabout is he sitting?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He is sitting there.

CHAIRPERSON: On the stage?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the person otherwise known as "Shooter"?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is John.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you been drinking liquor that day or evening prior to the shooting?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that when you came across this vehicle with the deceased removing the stones from the road, it was just by chance that when you happened to get there the deceased was out of the vehicle removing stones that were blocking his path of travel on the road?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, we saw that as an opportunity because he was already out of his van.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you see I'm looking at the bundle of papers that are before us and at page 87 thereof there is a statement, I think it's made by yourself, which was used in the trial.  Now reading at the bottom of this page you say
"I left with them.  We were now a distance from Mabote's place when we saw stones in the road.  When we got to the stones Shooter said we should then get other stones and put them in the road to block the road."
Did that happen at all?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We never removed the stones in the road.

CHAIRPERSON: What I'm saying is, in this statement it is said that you got other stones to put on the road.

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Stones were already in the road.  There were about two stones which were already removed and then we put other stones because we were trying to block the road.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't then just by coincidence come across the deceased when he was removing stones from the road, because now you say that you put stones in the road.  You must have put stones in the road and then waited for some vehicle to come, not so?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: When we arrived the stones were already there and the deceased's car was already there.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you just tell me now that you put two stones in the road?  You said there were two stones there and you put stones in the road?  Didn't you just say that a moment ago?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes, we put two stones in the road and then we moved on.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you put those two stones in the road before you killed the deceased or you and your companions killed the deceased or after you killed him?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We put the stones there before we killed the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you say you moved on, where did you move onto?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We didn't move on for a long distance from the place where we put the stones, we were still near that place where we put the stones.

MR SIBANYONI: Did the deceased stop at the place where you put the stones?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, he stopped there but by that time we were already away from that place and then we turned back and that is when we attacked him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why your co-perpetrators, John Kubeka and Phillip Mosia haven't applied for amnesty in respect of this incident or don't you know?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: What I know is that Mosia has not applied for amnesty because he was acquitted.  Kubeka has applied for amnesty but we are in different prisons.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just once again to refer to this statement that I've referred to earlier on, page 87.  You said that
"On the day in question I was at home with my friend, Phillip Mabote at Beirut.  We were sitting there busy drinking the liquor."
Did that happen?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at your trial raise the question of you doing this, performing these acts, this action as a member of the SDUs?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: Because I wanted to be acquitted so that I can continue with such operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you put the woman in the boot of the vehicle?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: We put her there so that if she was also a police, she should also die.

CHAIRPERSON: So you put her in the vehicle with the intention of her ultimately dying, is that what you're saying?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That's correct.  We thought that she was also a policeman, policewoman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever think of any of you, or decide to try to take the motor vehicle?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: No, Chairperson.  Once again I just read from the statement just for your comment, page 88
"I closed the boot ..."
That's after putting the woman in it.
"Shooter took the key.  He wanted to start the motor vehicle.  Maboti said we should run away as there was another car coming from behind."
What do you say to that?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I closed the boot of the car, that is true and then we left, we ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you arrested in relation to the commission of the offence?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I was arrested after two weeks because then I had already been arrested for another case related to gold.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the deceased's firearm at the time of your arrest?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I hid the weapon at my place.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you hand it over to your commander?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I went at our meeting place the following day but he did not arrive until I came back to Welkom, because I was supposed to come and contact my lawyers in connection with the other case related to gold.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went out that evening, were you armed, the evening that the deceased was killed?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: That's correct, I was armed.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you armed with?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: I was armed with a 9mm.

CHAIRPERSON: And Kubeka?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He was armed with a 765.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mosia?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: He was not armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR MHLABA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele?

MR SESELE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?