Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

CHAIRPERSON: What are the full names of Chaka?

MR MEY: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry, my headset is not working at this stage.  Thank you, Mr Nosenga - I am sorry Mr Chairperson, Chaka's surname is Chaka, his full name is Tickey Sidney Chaka and Rooikop ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us those names again, the first.

MR MEY: The first one is Tickey Sidney Chaka.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell this Chaka?

MR MEY: Chaka.  And Rooikop's name is Gerhardus Johannes Greeff.  Thank you.  Mr Nosenga, when was the first time that you had met Mr Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I knew him from the township, I do not recall just exactly where I met him, but he stayed at Zone 6 at Sebokeng.

MR MEY: Was that prior to your residence in the hostel, in kwaMadala hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR MEY: How did you meet him in Zone 6, Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I used to see him around the township because I used to have relatives in Zone 7.

MR MEY: At that stage, did you ever speak to him or had a conversation with him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just know him by sight.  I never spoke to him at that point.

MR MEY: And at that stage, he was still a member of the Green Beans, the Municipal Police, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I knew him to be at that time.

MR MALINDI: We did not get the last part of his answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a problem with the interpretation?

INTERPRETER: I do not think so, there was not anything said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, can you hear the Interpreter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I do.  Yes, I can hear her now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MEY: I will repeat the question Mr Nosenga, at that time he was still part of the Green Beans, known as the Municipal Police, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I said that is so.   He was a member of the Green Beans, but later on joined the SAP and then after that, joined the Murder and Robbery Unit in Vanderbijl.

MR MEY: Do I understand you correctly that you also know, or are you in a position to tell this Committee when he joined the Police or the Police Force?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not know when he joined.

MR MEY: Did he join the Police Force long before the Boipatong massacre on the 17th of June 1992?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, by the time the Boipatong massacre took place, he was a member of the Murder and Robbery Unit.

MR MEY: Can you indicate, in months, how many months or years before the Boipatong massacre, he joined the Police, that means from the Municipal Police to the South African Police Services?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot tell a lie, I do not know.

MR MEY: Before the day of the massacre on the 17th of June, except for now knowing him from Zone 6, did you meet him at any other occasion?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, when I had, after I had been arrested by Peens, at Flora Gardens, I said I knew Chaka from long ago.  At that time I did not even know where he stayed.

MR MEY: If you say after the time you had been arrested by Peens at Flora Gardens, what did Chaka do there, what did he do to you, what happened?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I don't remember what Chaka did.  The only person that assaulted me, was Peens.

MR MEY: Peens assaulted you after you had been arrested, Chaka did nothing to you, that was your evidence prior to this.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I said the person who assaulted me, was Peens, not Chaka, I do not remember what he did.

MR MEY: If you say you do not remember what he did, is it possible then that he assaulted you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I do not remember, because there were other Police Officers who were assaulting me, but the person that I remember accurately, is Peens.

MR MEY: Anyone else?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, I remember Peens.

MR MEY: Rooikop, was he present when you were arrested at Flora Gardens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Rooikop was present when I was arrested for robbery, but he was not present when I was arrested in connection with the vehicle.

MR MEY: So do I understand you correct now, he was not present when you were assaulted by Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: When I was arrested by Peens in connection with the vehicle, Chaka was the only person present, Rooikop was not there.  I only saw Rooikop when I was arrested in connection with robbery.  I did not see him there.

MR MEY: Was Chaka present when you were arrested for the robbery?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.  But I saw him when I was arrested for the vehicle.

MR MEY: And Rooikop did nothing to you when you were arrested for the robbery?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  They were busy with other things, because I was not the only person who was arrested, there were other suspects that I was held with.

MR MEY: With reference to Chaka, after the arrest for the vehicle by Peens, when did you meet again with Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I met him in Boipatong.

MR MEY: When was that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: On the 17th of June 1992, in the evening, that is in the veld.  We were in the company of Chaka and them as we went into Boipatong.

MR MEY: Are you sure about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would not fabricate these things, we did meet him on the 17th.

MR MEY: But prior to the 17th, between the 17th and the arrest for the vehicle, you did not meet with Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not.

MR MEY: Are you sure?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  I did not see him thereafter, until the 17th of June.  I last saw him when I was arrested by Peens, thereafter I just saw him on the 17th.

MR MEY: Rooikop, after his presence when you were arrested for the robbery, did you ever see him again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did.  I saw him on the evening of the 17th.

MR MEY: Also in the veld?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, we all went together to attack.

MR MEY: Prior to the 17th of June 1992 and his presence when you were arrested for the robbery, did you ever see him between those two dates or incidents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I had seen him before when I was arrested for robbery in Flora Gardens.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Mey is asking you is you saw Rooikop at the time when you were arrested for robbery you said?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you said the next time you saw him was on the 17th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What he wants to find out is between the time when you saw him during your arrest for robbery and the 17th, did you see Rooikop during that space of time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the only people that I saw, were Peens and Chaka, but I did not see Rooikop.

MR MEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Nosenga, will you clarify to the Committee that your evidence during cross-examination when you testified, or cross-examination of Mr Lowies, when you testified that you did see Chaka after your arrest for the vehicle, being the time when you had been visited by Peens and Chaka at Vereeniging?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, sir, I did indicate that Chaka and Peens visited me in Vereeniging, but I did not mention Rooikop.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, when Chaka and Rooikop, did you say they visited you in jail?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, I said it was Peens and Chaka who visited me in the prison.

CHAIRPERSON: When Chaka and Peens visited you in jail, was that after the massacre, the Boipatong massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR MEY: Thank you.  Mr Nosenga, the night of the incident, on the 17th of June 1992, prior to that you were told that the Police will give you some assistance with the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I do not remember, but the person who had been present at a meeting that was held two weeks prior the attack, was Peens and Themba Khosa.