Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

CHAIRPERSON: I should have mentioned that Mr Black has since come in.  I assume he 
has obviously some good reason why he was late and we will accept in advance that 
explanation.  You found us busy already Mr Black, because we couldn't wait.
	If I could just ask you - the person who survived and later died, was 
questioned and he did give some information like for example he said they were to 
meet somebody in Pietersburg at the station, and he described the kind of clothing that 
would distinguish that particular person.

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And was he also asked where they were from?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: I did not get an interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he also asked as to where they were coming from?  I just want to 
confirm that with you, because there was some evidence that he was asked where they 
were coming from and then he said they were coming from Botswana, I just want to 
confirm whether that is in fact also your evidence or your recollection.

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: I can't remember, but I assumed that he came from Botswana.  The 
questions which I pertinently put to him were where are you going and then he said the 
railway station and then I asked now, who are you supposed to meet there, why the 
railway station and he then said to me, I have to meet somebody there wearing a 
yellow shirt or a yellow bag or something.
	This person would familiarise themselves further with accommodation and so 
on.  But this person wasn't fully conscious, it was almost a dying declaration because 
he was muttering and he kept losing consciousness and coming to again and that is 
why after about three or four minutes, I asked the Medic from the Defence Force to 
inject him to stabilise him because it was important to determine who this person was 
who was waiting at the railway station.
	When I got to Alldays, my first action was to contact Colonel Willem van der 
Merwe and to tell him that the incident had not turned out well and that the person had 
died on the way.  And that he had given this information about the railway station.
	I made a request that Colonel Willem should send out people to the railway 
station.

CHAIRPERSON: The impression I got from the evidence of Mr Sehlwana was that after 
this person gave some information, and just after he had given all this information 
which looked important, he was shot dead.

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: That is definitely not the case Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you really here to save his life?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: Yes, definitely.  That is why I called the Medic because I could see this 
man was very, very seriously injured and there was very little hope of his survival.  He 
lost his consciousness the second or third time, I realised that ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make arrangements that an ambulance be sent with equipment 
from Alldays, maybe to meet the bakkie on the way?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, shouldn't you have if you were concerned about his survival?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: If I think about it today, yes, I suppose we should have got an 
ambulance and met it half way.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was the helicopter not called back to come and pick him up?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: The helicopter had already left 15 - 20 minutes before, and most 
probably close to Pietersburg already and that is why I decided not to recall it.  I 
believed that it would be another 5 - 10 minutes before it would land at Pietersburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that Medical corp drive in the bakkie with the injured person?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: I can't remember whether he accompanied the vehicle, I can't 
remember.  I didn't give him a specific instruction to go along.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you really think that he did travel with the corpses, the Medical 
officer, together with the injured person? I think you would be able to recollect that, 
wouldn't you?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: I can't give you a negative or a positive answer, I can't remember, it is 
too long ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this bakkie have a canopy?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: It did not have a canopy.  I can state that as a fact, because I loaded 
the man onto the bakkie with help.

CHAIRPERSON: So this badly injured person was being transported with some of the 
corpses in an open bakkie on a gravel road?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: It was a gravel road.  Whether all the corpses were on this bakkie or 
whether there was equipment, or whether one or two corpses, I can't recall.  All I can 
recall is that I loaded him onto the bakkie and I supported him so that he would be 
comfortable, because there was no other immediate transport available for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, how did you make anybody in that condition comfortable in an 
open bakkie on a gravel road?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: I am assuming that he didn't lay directly onto the metal, that we put 
down bags or some kind of covering to transport him, because I did lay him down on 
something, but I can't remember whether it was a blanket or a bag or what.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, another question which I should ask you and I am not trying to 
be funny, you said you planned to take him to Alldays Day Clinic?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: I can't say whether there is a Clinic, I just said take the person to 
Alldays because I was aware that there would be medical help there, I didn't know 
whether it would be a hospital or a Clinic, but I knew some for of medical help would 
be available in Alldays.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what kind, if you didn't know if there was a hospital or a Day 
Clinic, of what kind?  Medical help of what kind?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: I expected there to have been a Doctor at least who would then further 
stabilise the injured person and he could then perhaps be further evacuated to 
Pietersburg, which have better facilities.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't have any particular Clinic in mind, you didn't have any 
particular hospital in mind, you didn't have any particular Doctor in mind in Alldays, 
did you?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: No, I didn't have anybody specific in mind.  That is why I originally 
said that the person to take this wounded person to Alldays would be members of the 
Security Branch whether from Louis Trichardt or Messina and not from Pietersburg, 
because these people would be more familiar with the area.

CHAIRPERSON: You said the purpose was to arrest these people?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then do what with them after arresting them?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: After the arrest, Colonel Strydom and Colonel Dreyer would have 
dealt with the particular case dockets and they would have been charged with the 
promotion of terrorism and promoting the aims of ...

CHAIRPERSON: What about the cover of Sehlwana and your informer on the Botswana 
border, would their cover not have been blown?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: I believe that they would have been exposed to a certain extent.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't that worry you?  Were you prepared to accept that situation 
that they could be arrested, taken to trial, possibly the cover of Mr Sehlwana and the 
other informer be blown?  Were you prepared to go with that?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: That would contain calculated risks.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why didn't you accept that risk with regard to the inquest?  Why 
didn't you disclose the truth at the inquest if you are not scared of the cover being 
blown because I thought one of the reasons why you said you misled the inquest, was 
that you were afraid certain disclosure would be made?