Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

MR BERGER: No, Chairperson, it just talks about: "wraak" but what the statement does indicate is that the attack was for one purpose and then when that purpose couldn't be achieved then it was decided well let's exact revenge on the people of Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't say revenge for what?

MR BERGER: It doesn't say revenge for what.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I'm putting to you that the reasons you have articulated for the attack on Boipatong are not the true reasons.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I have said here before this Committee is the truth.  If you dispute it maybe you can give me the truth because you know you were present and you have your reasons as to why you're disputing my truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, when counsel puts questions to you it does not suggest that he was present when the attack took place.  The statements that he's putting to you as based on what he has been told by those individuals whom he represents, do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: So when he puts a proposition to you and you do not agree with it you must say so, either: "Yes, I agree with you, that is the reason" or "No, I do not agree with you", do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir, I understand.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, the reason I'm putting to you, the reason I put it to you, that you haven't disclosed the true reasons for the attack on Boipatong is because all the statements I've referred you to come up with either different reasons for the attack or they don't mention your reasons and in particular when you were asked: "When was it decided to attack Boipatong"?, you give two reasons or two events, one being an event which took place more than a year before the attack on Boipatong and the other one which has only to do with Mr Mkhize's beer supply being cut off.  That is why I'm putting it to you that you haven't disclosed the true reason for the attack on Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: In all fairness to the witness you must also put to him that in his affidavit at page 29 he does indicate that Boipatong was selected as a target for the attacks because they also threatened the residents of Kwamadala Hostel.  They were not allowed to buy at Boipatong shops during the weekends and the residents who were IFP members were evicted from Boipatong.  They also necklaced the IFP members.  This he gives as the reason for the attack.

MR LAX: Chairperson, if I could just add.
	That's in response Mr Berger to the direct question: "Why was Boipatong selected as the target of the attack"?  So I don't think you are being fair, as the Chairperson says, when you take the reason of the timeframe that's asked in 17.3, you don't add in the reason given in relation to 17.4 as well.  I just think you're stretching a bit otherwise.

MR BERGER: Chairperson and Mr Lax, I have canvassed with the witness the reasons that he has articulated about people being threatened from, people being prevented from shopping, people being evicted from Boipatong, people being killed.  I did that first.  I was focusing on 17.3, not to say that there isn't 17.4 but to say that in 17.3 he was asked for when and he focused on two events.

CHAIRPERSON: I perfectly understand that but what we're trying to prevent is for you to put it as a fact that the only reasons he has advanced are those that you've just put to him.  That is what we are trying to prevent because I think that's unfair to the witness.

MR BERGER: Yes, I'm just saying that in response to: "What were the events that triggered it"?, he gives two answers which I've just explained.
	But Mr Mthembu, so as not to be unfair to you, let me ask you this, the two persons Gazu and Mbatha, were those two people necklaced?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: Were you told ever what the reason was for the attacks or have you worked out for yourself what the reason was?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I could also see people being attacked.  We kept burying people, burying the bones that had been, bones of people who had been necklaced at Boipatong and we also had meetings and they would tell us about a funeral where we had to go and bury a person and they were informing us about the death of the people at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, when was it decided to attack Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps for our benefit, is it an issue that there was animosity between the IFP and the ANC in Boipatong, in particular between the residents of Kwamadala Hostel and the residents of Boipatong?

MR BERGER: It's not an issue Chairperson, that there was animosity.

CHAIRPERSON: But what you are raising is what was the motive for the ultimate attack on Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Indeed yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You're saying that it had nothing to do with this animosity?

MR BERGER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR BERGER: And Chairperson, so that I don't go wider than I intend to, not all the residents of Boipatong were ANC members or ANC supporters or ANC sympathisers, there were ANC members and supporters and sympathisers in Boipatong.  There were ANC structures in Boipatong and there was animosity between ANC members in Boipatong and IFP members in Kwamadala.  That is not in dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  My colleague here, Mr Lax, just wants to make sure that he understands you correctly.  What is in issue here is the motive for the ultimate attack on Boipatong?

MR BERGER: Correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The victims are saying that it had nothing to do with the animosity between the IFP and the ANC?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, my question to you was, were you or were you not told by somebody about the reason for the attack?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, Sir.

MR BERGER: You were not told?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I was not told, I witnessed the situation for myself.

MR BERGER: Did you ever attend any meeting at which the possibility of an attack on Boipatong was discussed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: There was no other meeting except for the one on the 17th.

MR BERGER: The words: "Attack on Boipatong", either as a possibility or as a reality was never discussed at any IFP meeting other than the meeting on the 17th of June in the evening in the stadium, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir, that's what I mean.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting, the one on the 17th of June there was no discussion at all about the reason for the attack, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I heard was that our people had died in multitudes in Boipatong and it had come to a point where we had to show them that the people who had been killed were also human beings.  Nobody should be killed without a reason.

MR BERGER: And who said that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: This was said by Damarra Chonco at the meeting.

MR BERGER: So then you were told about the reason for the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage?

MR BERGER: At the meeting on the 17th of June.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought that had always been his evidence, that at the meeting of the 17th they were told to go and attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, they were told to go and attack Boipatong, I'm asking him if they were told why they were going to go and attack, the reason for the attack and his original answer was that nobody told him about why they were going to attack Boipatong.
	Isn't that what you said Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I explained earlier on I witnesses that people were dying in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, please listen to my question.  My question to you is, were you told by anybody about the reason for the attack on Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have explained that Damarra Chonco mentioned this at the meeting of the 17th.

MR BERGER: So you were told about the reason for the attack, the answer is yes?