Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-01-14

JUDGE WILSON: No record at all to say he was detained in a cell?
	Are you telling us the truth Mr Sibaya?

BENNET SIBAYA: That's the truth Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: What happened to this case about the crayfish?

BENNET SIBAYA: We were assaulted, we were never charged for poaching crayfish and we were told afterwards - and we were given these photos with Mr Ntsebeza's registration and car and we were not going to be charged for crayfish, he would take back the equipment.
	But what he wanted us to do was to implicate Mr Ntsebeza, therefore he gave us his photo and registration and he instructed us to memorise the car registration and he even told us to call the flying squad whenever we see Mr Ntsebeza and he told us that Mr Ntsebeza was in Cape Town but my question was this ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: He told you Mr Ntsebeza was in Cape Town, he knew that and he told you that you must call the flying squad if you saw Mr Ntsebeza?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, whenever we see his car with the registration XA12848.  He gave us his business card so that we can call him whenever we see Mr Ntsebeza and he told us that he was in Cape Town.  And when I was from Bishopscourt and we saw Mr Ntsebeza and I could recognise him and with the car with the same registrations in the photo but I kept quite because I said: "I won't call Mr Segal for that".
	And I saw Mr Ntsebeza again in Pinelands in one of the supermarkets, but I asked myself: "Why can't they arrest him"? but I could sense that something was not clear - they know that he's in Cape Town but why can't they go straight there as police and arrest him and that's the reason why I didn't call him.

JUDGE WILSON: You've never mentioned this before in any statement or when you gave evidence have you, or when you gave evidence before Justice Goldstone?

MR DONAN: With respect Judge, it was mentioned and it was also common cause that Mr Ntsebeza was in Cape Town.

JUDGE WILSON: That he had seen him on two occasions in Cape Town, was not mentioned as far as I recollect Mr Donan.

MR DONAN: Well, with respect, as far as I recollect, the evidence was led but ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: At the Goldstone hearing?

MR DONAN: Yes, at the Goldstone hearing.  Mr Ntsebeza is present in court, he could probably confirm that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: He did mention he saw him on two occasions while he was in Cape Town.

JUDGE WILSON: You were also locked up on the 6th of January in the - again in the Bellville South Police Station, were you - 6th of January 1994?  Is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: We were arrested on the 4th of January, not on the 6th - half past two on the 4th of January, not on the 6th.

JUDGE WILSON: I'm reading from your affidavit, paragraph 9
"Mr Nonguaza fetched me on the 6th of January in Guguletu and I was taken to the Bellville South Police Station.  Mr Segal and Mr Fulani arrived and they put me in a cell"
What do you say about that?

BENNET SIBAYA: They arrested us on the 4th, they didn't take anything from us but they gave us instructions to memorise the car registration and the following day ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: Stop talking about the car Interpreter - identification, I'm asking you about what you said in your affidavit, paragraph 9.

BENNET SIBAYA: We were arrested on the 4th and on the 3rd day Mr Nonguaza came to fetch me.

JUDGE WILSON: On the what day?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was on the third day, I think it was on the 6th.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, is that correct what you've said in your affidavit, you swore to it?  Please Mr Sibaya, were you telling the truth in your affidavit or not?

BENNET SIBAYA: Which affidavit are you referring to, the one in front of me?

JUDGE WILSON: The one you are looking at.

BENNET SIBAYA: This is the truth, this is the truth, what I'm saying here is true.

JUDGE WILSON: That you were taken to the Bellville South Police Station and put into a cell on the 6th of January?

BENNET SIBAYA: On the 4th of January.

JUDGE WILSON: I am reading from your affidavit - you are looking at the same passage, your counsel has pointed it out to you.
	Haven't you Mr Donan?

MR DONAN: The witness is looking at the same paragraph as ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you read English?  Will you please read that paragraph just to refresh your memory?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, I can see it now.

JUDGE WILSON: Is it true?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, it is true.

JUDGE WILSON: So, you were again locked up and confined in a cell at the Bellville South Police Station on the 6th of January 1994?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, that's correct Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you take such a long time to say that Mr Sibaya?

BENNET SIBAYA: No, I made a mistake, it's only now that I can see that it's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And are you sure it was Inspector - I think it is, Fulani who you saw?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, I know him, it was him.

JUDGE WILSON: Because I gather from the Goldstone Report that you were unable to identify him and pointed out somebody else - a photograph of somebody else which did not look like him.

BENNET SIBAYA: Sir, if you see a person in a photo for the very first time, it might puzzle you but Mr Segal used to refer to him as Mr Fulani.  I can't be sure about the photo because we were being
tortured and we couldn't concentrate most of the times.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Donan, is there anything you wish to ...[intervention]

MR DONAN: Just one question if I may?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DONAN

MR DONAN: Mr Sibaya, in October of last year, did you come to the TRC to testify freely and voluntarily or were you induced to do so - were you forced to do so?

BENNET SIBAYA: I didn't want to come but they told me that I was going to be forced to come to the Commission, that's why I came -  I was not prepared but they told me that they were going to force me to come to the Commission.

MR DONAN: Did they tell you what would happen to you if you did not come and testify?

BENNET SIBAYA: They said I would be sentenced to two years in prison.

MR DONAN: And who told you this?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was Mr Benado.

MR DONAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DONAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Thank you Mr Sibaya, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, just in respect of the last remark, Mr Sibaya was under Subpoena from the Commission or the Amnesty Committee - I think the impression that is created is that possibly a warning - and I don't know, that as a witness and if he failed to appear what the penalties would be, I don't think that was the motivation behind getting him to the Commission.
	I don't wish to prolong this particular aspect, Mr Benado is available - his affidavit was before the Goldstone Commission, if the Committee wishes to call him.  I don't propose to lead any further evidence Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, are you proposing to call any witnesses at this stage?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No further witnesses Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Arendse.
	We'll take the short adjournment now, the Committee will adjourn for 15 minutes.

MR PRIOR: Please all rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Donan, do you have any further interest in this matter?

MR DONAN: I have no further interest, may I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.

MR DONAN: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I understand - it's been brought to my attention that the translators are not in their positions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, do we need the translators when there's an address to court?

MR PRIOR: I'm in the Committee's hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
	Mr Arendse?