Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I and Sifiso Malevu, Tekozani Ngema and Nmezela were able to flee and were not caught on the same day.  We remained at Empangeni until the end of the day, Mzwake did not return.  We then assumed that he had been arrested.   On the following day, we went to kwaMashu and the police arrived at my home that very same evening, with Sifiso Malevu.  Thereafter we went to Tekozani Ngema who tried to run away, but he was captured.    Nmezela Mkungu was not arrested on that occasion, because he was not at home when the police arrived.  We were thereafter taken to Empangeni.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Panday?

MR PANDAY: Just briefly.  Mr Mpanza, I don't have a problem following your evidence, but just a few concerns have arisen.  You originally stated that you sent Sifiso Malevu to go to Empangeni and meet Shabalala so that he can also identify who Steyn was, is that correct?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Right.  Now on the day that you went to commit this, before I go to that, is it correct that you did not know who Steyn was, and you could not identify him?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I did not know him before I went to Empangeni.

MR PANDAY: Right, and you did not know what he looked like?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, I did not.

MR PANDAY: On the day you went to Empangeni to commit this robbery at Avocas Wholesalers, you mentioned that Sifiso and one other person, went into the store to commit the robbery, is that correct?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now, what would have happened had Steyn arrived at the crime before these two people came out, how would you have identified Steyn?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think he did testify that at some stage at the court ...

MR LAX: He was in a Spar?

MR PANDAY: No, but this was consequential to the robbery, I am talking to the stage leading to the robbery and the robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MR LAX: Mr Panday, what happened was that in his testimony he dealt with the issues raised here in paragraph 8 and 9 of his affidavit, paragraph 9 in particular, the last two sentences of paragraph 9.  He says
"... whilst Malevu and I were at the Spar at Empangeni, Malevu saw Steyn going into the court.  We then followed him into the court room and whilst in court, I  identified him as my target."
	He didn't give that precise evidence, but he gave evidence to the same effect.

MR PANDAY: Okay, thank you Mr Chairman.  Now, Mr Mpanza, do you know who attacked and assaulted the security guard?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: What happened was, we took his firearm away, I do not remember if he was assaulted, because what happened, he was chased, I stopped him, I removed his firearm and took him back to the building.  He was unharmed at that point.

MR PANDAY: Is it you that took his firearm?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I did.

MR PANDAY: In his statement ...

MR LAX: Sorry, before you go, what do you mean you don't remember assaulting him?  Either he was assaulted or he wasn't?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I did not assault him, I just removed his firearm.  He was chased by Mzwake and I stopped him and took his firearm away.

MR LAX: Fair enough.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, just bear with me.  Now, right, now on page 48 of the bundle of documents, this was a statement given by Mr Joubert, the security guard, who is now deceased, this is what he says in the third paragraph
"... I tried to run away and he grabbed me.  He snatched my service firearm from my holster.  It was a 38 Special and he assaulted me with his booted feet, and I fell down."
	I presume the "he" refers to you, because you confirmed that you took his firearm?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I hear what you are saying.  It is  however not true that I kicked him, nor was I wearing any boots.  What I remember is that he ran towards me, I stopped him and took his firearm away.  I am certain that I did not kick him, nor was I wearing any boot.

MR PANDAY: So you say he ran towards you?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Who approached him and pointed the firearm at him?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Mzwake produced a firearm, because I was next to him.

MR PANDAY: And did you do anything else to the security guard?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: What I recall was that I ordered them to go inside, other than that I did not do anything to him.

MR PANDAY: Who was the leader of this operation?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I was the leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you report to?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: After completing the mission, I would have reported back to the people who had requested me, I would have reported back to the people who had requested me to carry out this mission, and this people were in the structures of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, the structure of the ANC concerns me.   You see, when a Commander of an area is going to attack the apartheid institution such as a policeman, there is no way he can do so without permission of his superior, isn't that so?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: It depended on your role, as a person who had been trained, I was at that liberty to take my own initiative in carrying out activities that were in line with the policy of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1993, when was this, 1992, the armed struggle was suspended and an attack on an apartheid institution such as a policeman, was a very sensitive issue, is that right?  Do you remember that?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Especially attacking a policeman would necessarily have to be approved by the national organ of the ANC, dealing with such attacks?  Not so?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I understand what you are putting to me.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you do you agree with that?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: In this case, was that done?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: There was a national conflict between the ANC and the IFP at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not answering the question.   Did you consult Chris Hani?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you consult anybody at that level?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember Rashied?    He was the Head of Special Ops?  You don't remember?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you consult any MK structure?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: There is a comrade (indistinct) Regional Commander in Angola,  a Timothy Mokoena who came to address us at kwaMashu.  When we arrived from exile, there was still an ongoing war in kwaMashu.
	Timothy was his combat name.  This person had authorised us to continue training people inside the country and because of his stature, we believed that what we were doing was in line with ANC policy.

MR LAX: You see, can I stop you, there was a big difference, there is a big difference between training people as part of the setting up of SDU structures which was a legitimate MK activity, and we know about that, we have seen all the documentation, we have heard from Ronnie Kasrils himself, we understand that that was a legitimate conduct on the part of MK operatives to assist communities to form SDU's.  What the Chairperson is talking about is different.  It is an offensive operation against an enemy agent?  It is furthering the armed struggle, and the armed struggle was suspended?
	Now if you were going to engage in that kind of conduct, you needed to get proper authorisation because it is a sensitive matter?  Do you understand?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I do.   However, the situation was such that we could not wait until we consult people like Chris Hani when people were being killed, we liaised with people who were from the area.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that none of the structures, MK structures or any person involved in the MK structure was in fact consulted about the proposed assassination of Steyn?  Is that what I understand?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I informed Papa Ndlovu from kwaMashu.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?