Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-23

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I won't belabour that point.

MR LAX: Just maybe you can help me here Mr Ntuli, it is really quite simple, the next part of your statement here says, I was part of this plan, I volunteered to lure Msani out, in the open, so that all the comrades could kill him.
	The plan was to kill him, you have just told us that that wasn't the plan and you make it explicit here that it was part of the plan, and that the intention was to kill him.  It is very simple, just give us an explanation why you said that in your form, and why that differs from your evidence here.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: As I said before, it was discussed amongst the comrades.  On this day when I returned from fetching my jacket, there was a discussion in progress when I arrived that Ndlandhla had been seen and the problem was who was going to bring him to the comrades.

MR LAX: You obviously can't give us an explanation.  Let's move on.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  You told us that Mduduzi was wanted by the Police.  For what crimes was he wanted, if you know?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: As I explained before, he was a very courageous person, he had a gun and he had shot the Police, the kwaZulu Police.  When the Police sometimes arrived at the area, he would shoot at them.
	Sometimes if for instance, there was somebody who was feared maybe, this person killing comrades, Mduduzi was not afraid to approach and kill this person.  That is the reason why the Police were looking for him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let me go back to the informal talks that took place where it was decided that Msani should be killed.
	Was there any person of leadership in those informal talks?  Leadership in the ANC, sorry Mr Chairman?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: At that time, we were not always in close contact with the leaders for the reason that the enemy, that is the IFP and the Police, were looking for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntuli, I don't think that was the question put by Mr Mpshe.  Mr Mpshe is asking at the informal talk where the deceased was discussed, you said you went and fetched your jacket and on your way back, you came and there was an informal meeting of comrades, he is asking not about the leadership of the ANC in the area, but at that informal meeting, was - who was the leader there if anybody?  Who was in charge of that meeting?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: There was no ANC leader at that point.  This was something that we discussed amongst ourselves as comrades.
	Sometimes we would sit and these matters would be discussed.  There was no formal meeting called to discuss the death even of Matobela.  At the time when we discussed Msani's issue, there was no leader amongst us.

MR LAX: Amongst these comrades, there was nobody who assumed leadership within the comrades, that is outside of the formal leaders of the ANC?  That is really the question that you are being asked.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I would not say that there was a leader amongst us, because we were all comrades of the same status, and there was no particular person telling us what to do.  We were discussing the issue as a group, the issue of Ndlandhla and the Police.
	We were discussing that we should try and see him because it could also happen that he may have been seen by other comrades and not even ourselves.
	They also would have asked him, and then they would have also killed him, themselves.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ntuli, my instructions are that Mduduzi was never a member of the ANC, but just one ordinary criminal in kwaMakutha.  What is your comment on that?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I would not disagree because I was not sure that he was a member, but I knew that he was a supporter of the ANC.
	With regards to what was happening in the community, he played a role amongst the comrades, the community trusted him.

MR LAX: Just, sorry, he hasn't answered an implicit part of your question, which was Mr Mpshe has put it to you that his instructions are that this man was a criminal.  Was he a criminal?  Was he engaged in criminal activities?  I am assuming that is what you are saying?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I did not know him to be engaged in criminal activities.  I knew him as a supporter of the ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: To put it further to you, my instructions are that when it happened that he be shot by the Police, he was actually being sought after by the taxi men in that area, for his criminal activities, or taxi owners?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I would not fully agree with that, because at the time of his death, Mduduzi had been in the company of a taxi driver, with whom he had gone to the Isipingo rank.  I do not see how he could have been with a taxi driver, if he was not on good terms with them.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: You were asked by my learned friend to divulge names of people with whom you were and you gave this Committee five names.  My instruction is that the deceased was stabbed more than 25 times.   Do you know how many people all in all, did the stabbing?  Don't bother about names?

CHAIRPERSON: It has been put to you that the deceased had been stabbed about 25 times.  Mr Mpshe wants to know how many people, besides yourself, stabbed the deceased, because you have only mentioned yourself having stabbed the deceased four times, twice initially, once getting out of the taxi and once when he fell at the house.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I stabbed Ndlandhla many times.  I do not know just exactly how many times I stabbed him, because he was also fighting me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody else besides yourself, stab the deceased?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: No.  I do not remember.  From the people that I was with, I do not remember anybody else stabbing him.
	Amongst the people that I was with, there was only one knife that was produced.  I may not know whether others also had knives in their possession, but I did not see anybody else stabbing him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I don't want to belabour this Mr Chairman, but can I just put another further question as a follow up to what he has said, please.
	I want to refer you to page 5, on what you have said that you do not remember whether any other ...

MR LAX: Just before you put that to him, just before you put that to him, did anybody else injure Mr Msani besides yourself?  You said you were the only one that stabbed him as far as you could remember.  Did anyone else injure him in any way?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: When Ndlandhla ran away and I was chasing him, some people arrived.  When I left him, there were people around.  There was one lady who came and some of the neighbours around the area.
	After leaving him, I do not know if some other people arrived on the scene and injured him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any person, did you, yourself, see any person other than yourself, either stabbing or any other way, assaulting the deceased, that you saw with your own eyes?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then if you say no Mr Ntuli, turn to page 5 of your application.  I will read Mr Chairman, for convenience, I started to stab him.  I stabbed him twice and he fled.  I chased him, he stumbled and he fell at Section 2, where a crowd of comrades was awaiting for him.  He was then assaulted and further stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: One more sentence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And I stabbed him once more.

MR LAX: To finish it off, he died there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, how can you say to the Chair that you didn't see anybody stab, when in your statement you stated it very clearly that the comrades were waiting there, came and a further assault took place and the stabbing, and you stabbed further?