Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I had been advised that before the amnesty I should not do so because it could be to my detriment in the case and for that reason I stated yesterday that I am sorry about what I had done to the family because of the conflict of the past, because I protected the State security, the interests of the State.  And I had explained to you the two spectrums, on the one hand the liberation organisations and on the other hand the Government of the day and for that reason I didn't so Sir.

MR NYOKA: If they were so troublesome Mr Nieuwoudt, and they were causing mass mobilisation, school boycotts, why did you not make a concerted effort to eliminate other COSAS activists besides them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I did not have the authority to make that decision.

MR NYOKA: Finally, do you remember in 1988 there was a case at Humansdorp where ...[inaudible] was acting having briefed ...[inaudible] - the case was Collin Devu and another person - another two people, Collin Devu was convicted having of having been an MK member - he's a bodyguard of Mr Mandela now.  He was sentenced to 14 years and an informer Mr X, was one of the people he skipped the country with but he was in protective custody, he was never a danger.  The State succeeded in prosecuting people who were troublesome - I think I saw you in Humansdorp, do you remember that case?  It was a big case in Humansdorp in 1988.  Collin Devu, he's now a bodyguard of Mr Mandela.  He originates from Paarl in the Western Province, do you remember that case?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I remember that case but I was not the investigating officer in that case Mr Chairperson and ...[intervention]

MR NYOKA: I'm very pleased that you remember it.  The reason why I'm saying that is because contrary to what all of you said, you could use an informer in a very big case like the big fish, like Mr Mthimkhulu and Madaka and say: "You're an informer, we're going to use you but we are going to place you in protective custody" and the second reason why I'm quoting that case is because contrary to what you said, prosecutions did continue after 1982 as late as 1988, but he got release in 1991.  Any comment?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I can indicate some instances where this did happen 10 years after the person who gave evidence - that this person during the time of unrest had been eliminated and we can think of several other persons who were also so-called Mr X's in the earlier years.  Mr Thlapane for example, he was the first person who died so there are many such examples of persons who gave evidence and who were eliminated.  I think at that stage the process changed.

ADV SANDI: I think Mr Nieuwoudt, - you must tell me if you agree or do not agree with me, the possibility is always there that a person who becomes a Mr X gets eliminated, do you agree?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Could you please repeat the question Mr Chairperson?

ADV SANDI: There is always a possibility that if someone becomes a Mr X and a State witness in a security related case against someone he or she has worked with, that person could possibly be eliminated at the end of the day and the police have to do something to ensure that it does not happen, they have to try and do something to ensure that it does not happen.  I think that's what Mr Nyoka is trying to say to you.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't the position that informers were always at risk whether they gave evidence or not, that if their identity was discovered they were likely to be killed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And despite this the security branch invariably tried to persuade people they had taken into custody for one reason or another, to become an informer.  Is that not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: I put it to you further, not Mr Mthimkhulu deserved to die but Mr Madaka did not deserve to die, all he did he was being a friend of Mr Mthimkhulu and helping him because he had transport, why did you not take Mr Madaka and put him elsewhere in the country to break that connection with Mr Mthimkhulu - under banishment for instance, why did you not do that?  Or detain him without trial even if you didn't have to interrogate him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I have given the - I gave the information to Mr du Plessis and the decision didn't rest with me Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: So you agree with me that it was foolish of Mr du Plessis not exhaust those avenues, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot comment on that or say yes.

MR NYOKA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Nieuwoudt, yesterday the questions and meaning of eliminating or "elimineering" was discussed, do you remember that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BRINK: And there was talk of various politicians who were encouraging elimination of people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is true.

MR BRINK: And you mentioned in particular, General Magnus Malan who had made a statement that after some bomb blast that the ANC would be eliminated, as I remember your evidence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Now apart from General Malan, are you able to tell the Committee from where or from whom did you get the impression that politicians and more particularly Nationalist Party politicians were in favour of the elimination of political activists?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I can't tell whether they - well I can just refer to their statements as we saw in the newspapers, the things that they had said about elimination.  I know about the attack in Lesotho which was carried out, I know about the attack on the APLA bases in Natal - in Transkei, I beg your pardon and it is on those grounds - I can't say that they really agreed with that type of activity.

MR BRINK: Are you able to recollect the names of any of the politicians who may have given the impression that they were anxious that activists should be eliminated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I know about Mr Vlok's statements where he referred to the word elimination and when he was confronted with this fact he said that it actually meant something else and if I think back that's what I can remember, I don't know whether he was in favour of this.  And I think P W Botha also said first shoot and then ask questions, so that's what I can think of Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: Going back to this specific incident, am I correct in saying that you in fact never received a direct order from your superiors to take part in the murder of these two men?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: My superior was Mr du Plessis, do I understand you correctly?

MR BRINK: What I'm asking you is whether or not you received an order to take part in the abduction and murder of these two men or whether you acted as a willing and free agent?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I had received a command, an instruction to be involved in the abduction and elimination of Mr Madaka and Mr Mthimkhulu.

MR BRINK: Was that a direct order given to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I construed that as a direct instruction.

MR BRINK: When Mr Mthimkhulu was in detention, I take it he had no visitors apart from the district surgeon and the Magistrate?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I remember correctly, he had access to the district surgeon because while he was in detention in Jeffrey's Bay he underwent a small operation of his rectum Sir.

MR BRINK: But while he was in detention in Port Elizabeth, I take it he was not allowed any visitors save for a Magistrate and if necessary a district surgeon?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.