Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

AZHAR CACHALIA: Not in the least madam, what I am suggesting is very simple that on his version, on his version he had another option.  I'm not suggesting for a moment that they were being attacked, there were 400, we'll put our version, I have put it in a manner of speaking to the applicant but I put it in detail with you with the evidence.

MR SITHOLE: And is it in dispute that there was a tension between the ANC and the IFP on your client's version?

MR SITHOLE: There might have been tensions between individuals, between the committees and the members there was no tension.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Mr Cachalia, I'm a bit puzzled here.  These matters that Advocate Sigodi has just raised with you you haven't put clearly to this witness any of those things.  You haven't said how many people there were, you haven't said there wasn't a fight, you haven't said there were tensions to him.  In fact you haven't, apart from looking at contradictions on his own version, you haven't put a version to him which you might back up with testimony later.  And if you don't do that now that's going to be a major problem later.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you for bringing that to my attention.  I thought I had put to them that weren't, I'd put him to dispute the number he is suggesting there are 400 or 100, I haven't put the numbers to him. I am saying that I have put to him already that they had a very good relationship and that they had in fact sorted out their differences amicably in the past and there was no problems with the ANC on that particular day, so I'm saying that there are in fact no problems.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Are you putting to the witness, or is it part of your case, that nobody was armed in the ANC group, there were no gunshots emanating from that group, they weren't armed with spears or kerries, and that they were just attacked without notice or without reason.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sir I did put to the applicant that the late Mr Dastile approached the group that was standing on the soccer field, that he waited for them to respond and the didn't respond, as a result they then walked away, but I can put it in the detail that the Committee might think is required.

MR LAX: Mr Cachalia it's really up to you to decide how you're going to handle the case for the victim.  All we are saying is what we've already said to you, and that's our either misconception or understanding of your case so far, but it's up to you.  You know we can't tell you what to do.

AZHAR CACHALIA: As it pleases, then perhaps I should just put it much more clear.
	Mr Sithole there was an arrangement - I just want to put the case of the victims to you, there was an arrangement on the Thursday to meet on Saturday at five o'clock.  Any comment?

MR SITHOLE: I don't know what the date was agreed upon as to when we should meet at the grounds.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, I don't want to go through the whole cross-examination again.  I am saying that did you and your IFP members agree with the ANC to meet on Saturday at five o'clock on the ground, yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: I think just put your version.  We won't go through the whole cross-examination.  We've been here most of the day already Mr Cachalia.  Just, if you don't want to put it you don't have to put it, but just put your version and at the end of it you can say this is the version that's going to be put.  If you don't want to put your version you don't have to, as Mr Lax said it's up to you, but we don't have to go through the whole cross-examination again.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Precisely sir and that's why I put it to him that we had made the arrangements and had given versions which with Mr Sithole on Friday there was a dispute about what happened at the Moloitsi shebeen as a result of which there was meetings between you and other parties on Friday again.  Are you aware of that?

MR SITHOLE: No, I know nothing about that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You do admit that there was in fact a dispute about the posters that had been destroyed by the IFP youth which you were approached with and which was denied.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I know that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And on the, you had discussed questions about roaming bands of people at 3 o'clock in the morning and 5 o'clock in the morning and the toyi toying, all those matters are being disputed that nothing like that happened in Zevenfontein on Friday night or any other night in that week.  Any comment about that?  That's what the victims will say.

MR SITHOLE: I am saying that happened.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And at no stage, Mr Sithole, was members of the ANC who were going to meet you on the Saturday carrying arms in the form of firearms, spears, guns, kerries, or any of the sorts.

MR SITHOLE: I am saying they were armed with axes, spears, and machetes, and many other things.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Cachalia.  Ms Lockhat do you have any questions to ask the witness.

MS LOCKHAT: No Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen do you have any re-examination?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, maybe just an issue that's already been discussed.  Mr Sithole, if you could just, there's been made a lot of mention of distances and times, confirm that you are illiterate and you do not understand time as such in the sense that you understand how a watch works.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, that is all Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Sigodi do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV SIGODI: Just one aspect that I want to clarify with the applicant.  You say that when you went to, in your affidavit here on page 30, paragraph 5.5, you say that when you went to Mr Magwaza's house you found Mr Zwane, Mr Mpongosi and other IFP members that were gathered in that vicinity.  Were they inside the house or were they outside the house of Mr Magwaza?

MR SITHOLE: They were outside.

ADV SIGODI: And when Mr Magwaza came to hand you this AK-47,  were the other people also armed, or did you see them having any firearms?

MR SITHOLE: I really could not make out.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know where Mr Magwaza got these firearms from?

MR SITHOLE: We were discussing that contributions, financial contributions should be made because we have picked up vibes to the effect that the ANC was going to attack us.

ADV SIGODI: When was this?

MR SITHOLE: It was just before the fighting.

ADV SIGODI: And who was supposed to contribute for the firearms?

MR SITHOLE: Anybody was supposed to make a contribution but the person that was collecting the money was Bengu.

ADV SIGODI: Was he responsible for buying the firearms?

MR SITHOLE: No, he was just handling the money.  Magwaza was the one who was in charge of the purchasing of the firearms.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know how many firearms the IFP had in that region at that time?

MR SITHOLE: He told me that he managed to procure two firearms.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax do you have questions for him.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Just on the issue of firearms, you were asked originally who else had firearms there, and you mentioned two other people.  I didn't catch it very properly.  You said there were two other handguns.  Who were those two people please?

MR SITHOLE: I don't know their names, I only know their surnames.  It was Upumosa and Zwane.

MR LAX: So, to the best of your knowledge there were four firearms present at that point in time amongst the IFP members?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I would say so, if one were to take into account the one firearm that I have as well as that which was in Magwaza's possession.