Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.  The villagers decided that if he is going to attack the comrades that he perceives to be trouble makers, then he is going to kill all of us, so they decided to converge at his kraal.  They went to his kraal.

ADV DE JAGER: Was that on the same day when he bought the petrol?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: No the day after he bought the petrol.

ADV DE JAGER: So that was now the 4th day after on that mountain?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The day we saw him carrying the petrol, we, the comrades that were involved at that time, we were pinpointed out say, Roger, Mudau, Masioma, Masithulela, all their houses are going to be burned down.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: By the deceased and his sons.

CHAIRPERSON: But who had this hit list?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Who had these names?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Who were their names, the comrades?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The sons, this Boshoff Mahvunga and the other one is called Aubrey Mahvunga.

CHAIRPERSON: Explain to us how you got to know that they had this list.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Okay.  During that time the deceased used to have close relatives like the one who is sitting there by the name of Petrus Mahvunga, he is the brother to the deceased as such, so the people like that, they're the ones who were spreading out the rumour, those guys we are going to deal with accordingly.  So during that time of the petrol we took our furniture from our ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So the deceased's family, you say, was telling the villagers what is going to happen.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, whenever they came across they say those boys we are going to deal with.  Then we were afraid and our parents were afraid too.  So they ordered us to take out the furniture from our houses and take the furniture to the field, to save the furniture.  We decided that if he is going to burn, he must burn the empty houses, not the furniture.

MR NDOU: So you also took your furniture out?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, of course.

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Then we were waiting for him until we decided that for us to be safe, we have to form self-defence units during that time, during that night of the ambush.

MR NDOU: I see it's 5 past 4.  Maybe it's an opportune time,

CHAIRPERSON: How long is he going to be more?

MR NDOU: I think he may still go for another 30 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see how far he can get.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So from then on we guessed that we have to form self-defence units which we did and from what I still recall from his gate up to our places, every corner was manned at that time.

MR NDOU: And why were these corners manned?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: We were afraid that he was going to burn our kraals as he was renown for his aggressive attacks.  So from there we waited for him until we realised that he's not coming, then in the morning we conveyed to our different places.  So when we were at our place, they found that the youth, they were against us singing freedom songs because we declared that we are not going to stop our political activities because we wanted freedom and this freedom we will attain by any other means and the man himself cannot be the obstacle, he cannot hold the people ransom because he was still living in the dark ages.  He was against political activities.

MR NDOU: For what reason?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: No one knows.  So we decided that we have to go further for us to gain political activities which is free, then if he is going to ambush us like that, we have to remove him as an obstacle for us to get political independence, I mean to get free political activity, we have to remove him, because he has proven himself to be a danger to the village as such.  So we decided to remove him.

ADV DE JAGER: Who decided that?

MR NDOU: You and whom?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The village as a whole.

MR NDOU: Where was this decided?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: At the soccer field.   No, no, no excuse me it was not decided by the youth to remove him, so we wanted to make another attempt to remove him from the village, hence we made two attempts and they had failed already, so we converged to his kraal, pleading with him again.

CHAIRPERSON: Then?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Then he told the villagers that he's not going to leave.  He will leave a dead corpse.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So then other people asked him, do you say you are not going to leave?  And if we are going to see to it that you are going to leave, you will say you are not going to leave, except that you will be taken out as a dead corpse.  So, you are alone with your sons, you are just a minor to the village as a whole   We are many here, if we want to kill we can kill you now, but if you say that you are not leaving we will see to it that you leave by force. It is then that he declared that "I am not going to leave, I will rather fight."  It is then that the people asked him  "Are you ready to fight?"  He said "Yes, I will fight for my property".  It is then that the people said "Okay, if you are going to fight, show yourself".

MR NDOU: And where was all this happening?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: At his kraal.

MR NDOU: So the villagers had converged at his kraal?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Definitely.

MR NDOU: And you were also there?  You were also there at his kraal?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course, I was one of them.

ADV SIGODI: In other words when you are saying the villagers you mean both young and old people were there?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: That's when they said "If you are not going to leave, you're going to leave by force" then he said "I'll fight and I'll die for my properties", it is then the people started with throwing stones.

MR NDOU: And where were his children?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: They were with him, including his wife and all the children.

MR NDOU: And what were they doing?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: They were ready to fight. They were carrying spears, slings and catapults.

MR NDOU: And they wanted to fight this big crowd of people?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course.  And it was surprising because 6 people cannot fight more than 2 to 3 000 people.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there 3 000 people?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The whole village is comprised by more than 5 to 7 000 people, so 2 - 3 000 thousand people were there.

MR NDOU: And all these people that had gathered there, were there to try and make sure that he was removed from his home, is that correct?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, they wanted to remove him from the village, from his home.  So the people realised that he was serious and he meant to fight, as he promised to.  So the people said that if he is going to fight, possibly he is going to die.  He won't stand up to more than 3 000 people.  So he decided to strike.  He threw, what was that. what did I say he was carrying, catapults and what?  An arrow, or what?  A spear, I mean it was a spear, he threw a spear into the mass.  That spear triggered the whole incident, then the people started throwing stones at him and his children.

MR NDOU: And were these people outside?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes they were outside his fence.

MR NDOU: But inside their yard?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Inside the yard was himself and his children and his wife.

MR NDOU: And this big crowd that had gathered there was standing outside?

MR NDOU: Outside and around his home.

MR NDOU: Now after he had thrown a spear at the crowd, you say, what did the crowd do?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: It triggered the crowd to throw stones back at him and his children and his wife too.

MR NDOU: What did the people do?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: They started throwing stones at him.

MR NDOU: And what did the stones do?