Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

UNKNOWN: Coming then to the next one which is paragraph 10, Mr Motsamai said the following: he said himself, Mamome, Constable Morakile, Constable Mtyhala, which is - well, perhaps, I'm sorry Mr Chairman, may I start again, Mamome, spelt M-a-m-o-m-e, Constable Morakile, M-o-r-a-k-i-l-e, Constable Mtyhala - this is an incorrect spelling and I'll spell it correctly, M-t-h-y-a-l-a, Constable Litseo, L-i-t-s-e-o and Constable Lesale who is yourself, petrol bombed the house of Teacher Bolosha, B-o-l-o-s-h-a who was a member of the UDF.  Was this person a person that you were giving attention to as in your work concerning the activities of trade unions?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: It's not like that I don't know that person.

UNKNOWN: You don't know him.  Did you participate as a member of a group who petrol bombed his house?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: It's not like that.

UNKNOWN: Do you personally have knowledge of the fact whether his house was in fact attacked or not?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

UNKNOWN: And then, lastly ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it wasn't a he was it, it was a she?

UNKNOWN: One of them was a lady, it may have been ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Bolasha was a lady, she's now a teacher in Pretoria.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Well I don't know 
whether that makes any difference to your answer Mr Lesale, it was a lady teacher.  Did you know her?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I don't know her.

UNKNOWN: And lastly, at page 148 Mr Motsamai says that himself, Mamome, Mtyhala, Lesale, Miningwa and Ramosoeu - and I haven't spelt that one yet, I'll spell it, R-a-m-o-s-o-e-u, were involved in the attempted murder of one Oupa Makubalo who was the chairperson of COSAS.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That's not correct.

UNKNOWN: And he says he had been implicated in the murder of one of what he calls our informers, Kosi
"and we fired several shots at him but missed"
Do you know anything about this incident?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes I know the day when we were going to arrest Mr Oupa Makubalo.

UNKNOWN: Who were the persons according to your recollection who were present on that day when you went to arrest Oupa Makubalo.  Were you present?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was present.

UNKNOWN: Was Mr Motsamai present?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was present.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mamome, he was present?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was present.

UNKNOWN: Miningwa?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I don't remember.

UNKNOWN: Ramosoeu?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I think he was present.

UNKNOWN: And is it true that you all went with one vehicle?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes it was a Kombi.

UNKNOWN: And where did you go.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: It was in the afternoon just about, we were just about the knock off.  We were in the kitchen,  Motsamai arrived then he told us that the person who has killed his informer, he's in Botshabelo, he has met with his other informer then he informed him that.  Then he is requesting our assistance to go and help him to arrest that person.

UNKNOWN: And you then left and you went to Botshabelo, is that right?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is Botshabela.

UNKNOWN: I'm sorry, Botshabela.  And in your own words, tell the Committee as best you can remember, exactly what happened.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: We were driving in the main road called Moshweshwe, Motsamai was supposed to show us the street we were supposed to take.  He showed us the street and then we saw a group of boys standing.  Just when we approached, he chased this person and then he shot.

UNKNOWN: Just stop there.  Please when you refer to a person, please mention his name.  Who was the one who chased?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Motsamai got out of the car and he chased Oupa, I did not know his name all the time.   Mamome got out of the car but I do not remember whether Ramosoeu and others got out of the car, Motsamai shot.

UNKNOWN: He shot where, at whom?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was shooting in Oupa's direction.

CHAIRPERSON: What was Oupa doing?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: They were standing under a tree when we arrived in the Kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: And when he was shooting was he still standing under the tree?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: When the Kombi stopped Oupa ran away.

UNKNOWN: So he was shot at while he was running away, is that what you're saying?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Can you remember today how many shots Mr Motsamai shot at in the direction of Oupa?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I don't remember but it was several times.

UNKNOWN: Did you fire any shots on that day?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No.

UNKNOWN: Did you see Mamome fire any shots on that day?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No.

UNKNOWN: Was Mamome running in the same direction as the direction in which Oupa Makubalo was running or was running in a different direction?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was running in - to his direction.

UNKNOWN: And Oupa Makubalo was in fact arrested that day?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Those are the questions in evidence in chief, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: Have you ever met Mr Ngo personally?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes, for about two months if not more than that, I do not remember well.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was that when Mr Ngo was still in Bloemfontein?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He arrived whilst I was still working there and I was told that he's being recruited.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right, what I really want to know is after you had left Bloemfontein and had gone to Pretoria, did you ever speak to him then, after you had left Bloemfontein?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: And during the time you spent at the security police can you remember any instance whatsoever where
somebody else from another security branch from somewhere else in the country, was used in an operation by the security branch in Bloemfontein?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Sorry?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not remember such an instance.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman before there's cross-examination, perhaps in view of a point that has come up which may give rise to confusion, may I just ask one further point.
	You told my learned friend, Mr du Plessis, that you knew Mr Ngo when you were told that he's being recruited, do you remember that?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Recruited as what?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was a student in the police.

UNKNOWN: Student Constable?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR STANDER: Mr Lesale, I'm going to ask you questions concerning the arrest and the shooting incident with respect to Mr Oupa Makubalo.  Tell me, did you have other people who went out together with Mr Motsamai?  Did you also have firearms with yourselves.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: All the policemen from the security branch had guns.  I remember on that day we also had guns but I do not remember checking as to whether all of us had guns.

MR STANDER: Did you also have a gun yourself?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes.

MR STANDER: The security police did they always take these weapons with them when they went on a mission?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: What are you referring to when you say mission?

MR STANDER: For example when you went to arrest somebody.  Did you always take your guns with you.  Your weapons with you?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: You must carry your gun, it was regulation to have your gun when you go to arrest a person.

MR STANDER: And on this particular day, do you know if Sergeant Mamome had his weapon with him?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I said I do not remember whether others had their guns or not, I did not look at them as to whether they had their guns.