Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

MR PRIOR: There is no further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, are there any questions?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr 
Chairman.  Mr January, you gave evidence at court.

MR JANUARY: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And your summary is on page 51 of the record.

MR JANUARY: Okay.

UNKNOWN: And then you also prepared your own statement 
which is on page 2 of the second bundle.  And just your comment 
from reading both, it doesn't seem to me that you are saying that the 
attackers were inside the Tavern.  Maybe I should read it to you.  
On page 51, the second line Mr Chairman.
	Michael January and his cousin Grant, were also sitting on the 
platform.  Like other persons, he first heard a loud pop sound which 
he could not identify and then from close by a series of hard sounds, 
very loud sounds, which made it impossible for him to think of 
anything else.  All that he could do was to lie down flat on the little 
seat.
	After a two or three second pause, the shooting started again. 
 He wanted to hide under the seat when he felt that he was wounded 
in the leg.  He attempted to close the wound, the opening of which 
was larger than the palm of his hand, while he could see the bullets 
hitting all around him.
	For a frightening while he lay down very quietly.  Grant them 
asked him whether he had been wounded and fetched assistance. 
	Then in your prepared statement on page 2, under the sub-
heading the incident you say in the second line of that paragraph 
within minutes the shooting started, I didn't see much since the 
shooters were in a dark entrance way and shooting through 
windows.  I hid under a table but was hit anyway in the back of my 
upper left leg thigh.  Just your comment.

MR JANUARY: Yes, I don't know, I am sure that it must have 
been taken down in a statement at the time.  I spoke to many 
Policemen while I was in hospital.  My feeling has always been, 
although I never specifically saw the attackers, from the position I 
was at, I didn't have a clear view towards the entrance way, but I 
was aware that there was shots coming from the direction of the 
entrance way.  I was also aware of shots being fired through the 
window as from the position at which I was lying, I could clearly see 
the windows and the double doors.
	And I could actually see holes appearing in those double 
doors and in those windows where the shots were being fired into 
the building from outside.  But I was also aware of people shooting 
from the direction of the entrance way.

UNKNOWN: Can I just pass you the photographs, photograph 
11 through to 16.  One can see from those photographs Mr 
Chairman, that shots were fired there through broken windows, 
through the door.

JUDGE WILSON: As I see it, there were four shots fired through 
the double door.  Do you agree Mr Arendse?  Two through the glass 
and two higher up?

UNKNOWN: Then there is a broken window.

JUDGE WILSON: There is a broken window to the right, facing ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: ... where other shots were fired through the 
stained glass?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question you want to put to this 
witness, Mr Arendse?

UNKNOWN: Is that what you were describing, that when you 
say you heard or saw shooting through windows, it must have been 
that then?

MR JANUARY: Yes, I was sitting on a raised platform.  At least, 
at that time I had thrown myself down, but I was on the raised 
platform, and I had a direct line of sight to the double door and 
those windows and that was definitely one of the directions from 
which shots were being fired.

UNKNOWN: Okay, now how far is the raised platform from 
the double doors and maybe you could just mark again, if someone 
could just hand Mr January the sketch plan which is Exhibit B, from 
the point - you've got the sketch plan there?

MR JANUARY: Yes, I've got the sketch plan.

UNKNOWN: You see "g" and "f", those are the double doors?

MR JANUARY: Yes.

UNKNOWN: From the furthest point in, because we can also 
see from the photographs, the double doors are now sort of in, they 
are not like that any more today, but they were in then, from the 
furthest point in to the raised platform, what is that distance?

MR JANUARY: The entire area of that front room from about the 
staircase to the double doors, the dimensions of that room is about 5 
metres in width to about 10 metres in length.  I was sitting right at 
the back of the raised platform where there is a pillar indicated in 
line with the staircase, that is above the point "d" that is indicated 
on the sketch, there is a pillar above that point, and I was sitting 
close to that pillar.  So that would have put me about eight, nine, 
maybe ten metres away from the double doors.

UNKNOWN: And you heard the evidence of Mr Cornelius, 
how far would you have been from the opening in the wall?

MR JANUARY: As you can see the opening in the wall is rather 
closer to the double doors, but diagonally across from myself, from 
where I was sitting in the Tavern, to where that opening is, the 
distance would have been about five to seven metres maybe.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further 
questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: I have no re-examination Mr 
Chairman.  Is there anything else that Mr January would like to add?

MR JANUARY: There is one thing that I would like to add.  The 
only reason I would like to add this, is that I feel that this hearing is 
the only place where such things should be voiced and in terms of 
reconciliation it is things that I would like to get off my chest.
	But in some measure, I have a very negative opinion towards 
what the Truth Commission is intending to or proposing to do.  I 
see, I often see the Truth Commission as merely a mechanism for 
politicians to give their soldiers amnesty, while those same 
politicians are never going to be implicated in the actions which 
resulted from decisions they made.
	I believe that amnesty is the reward for the soldiers taking the 
fall for decisions which the politicians were responsible for.  Thank 
you.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I ask you something completely different.  
You have been sitting in all this morning, haven't you?

MR JANUARY: Yes, Judge Wilson.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you in a position to tell us whether the 
shots you heard were single, double, treble shots or whether they 
were automatic fire?

MR JANUARY: Well, during the shooting I wasn't paying much 
attention to  how the shots were being fired, there were lots of shots 
being fired, but I seem to recall in the hearing from Mr Madasi's 
statements that he perceived movement and that he directed his fire 
towards that movement.
	I would infer from that that Mr Madasi implied that he was 
directing his fire at movements he could perceive.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MR JANUARY: Thank you, Judge Wilson.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused from further attendance Mr 
January.

MR JANUARY: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I still have three witnesses to go and 
there are one or two other aspects.  One of them that Judge Wilson 
raised and it was in my mind all along and we have discussed that 
with the Investigators to obtain better evidence regarding, if such 
evidence is available, to assist the Committee.
	I see it is one o'clock, I don't know what the ruling would be 
regarding the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the long adjournment now, but can 
we resume at a quarter to two Mr Arendse?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you arrange to see that your clients are 
brought in in time?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  It would of course help Mr Chairman, if 
any of the other witnesses, if their statements are not already with 
me, if it could perhaps be provided during the break so that we can 
just, whatever delay there might be, so that we could just avoid that.