Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

FUNDISELE GULENI: I think there were six of them.   I know I might be mistaken, but they were six, if I am not mistaken.

MR MGIDLANA: Prior to meeting them, did you, prior to meeting them on that particular day, did you know them?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No.

MR MGIDLANA: When you say you divided them into two groups, how many were they in a group and therefore how many were they in the other group?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I think I was faced with three people and three people were with Mzwandile on the other side.

MR MGIDLANA: Whilst you were still at the first spot where the shooting took place, how many were injured at that spot, amongst those people?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Two of them were injured.

MR MGIDLANA: And they were from your group, is that correct?  Are you saying that they were from the group that you were questioning?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: And then, when you are now at the last spot where the other killing took place, how many were killed there at that spot?  Is it four, because you said you left two at one spot who were already injured, and then is it the whole four, assuming there were six?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I think there were four of them.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you know what happened to the other two that you had left at that spot?  Did you see them again that day?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I don't know what happened to those two.   When we went back there, we did not find them there, and we later heard that two people were found injured, that means they managed to crawl and the people from the community found them and they took them to the hospital.

MR MGIDLANA: So you are saying that you personally did not take part in the actual shooting?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I never took part in the actual shooting.

MR MGIDLANA: Did Poyo, Lusindiso, take part in the shooting?

FUNDISELE GULENI: They also did not take part, he also did not take part.

MR MGIDLANA: So as I understand it, it is only one person who did the shooting which is Mqiza?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Now, during this digging and burying of their bodies, did you participate in the digging, or who dug those, or how did you bury them?  Did you bury them in one hole or in different holes?

FUNDISELE GULENI: It was one big hole.  I did not take part in the digging.  We were just watching, guarding the place, because we knew that we could get some disturbance.

MR MGIDLANA: Who dug that hole?

FUNDISELE GULENI: The other marshals, I cannot remember their name, except for Zalisele Matushane and this gentleman from Bantu and if my memory serves me correctly, I am sure that myself, Lusindiso and Mzwandile, we were just standing there, we did not dig the hole.  I cannot remember those gentlemen, because we took ordinary marshals and the other people that I can identify because they were closer to me.

MR MGIDLANA: Where did you get the firearms from?

FUNDISELE GULENI: The firearms were always in Mzwandile's car.  At first there was this R4 that I got from Ndumiso, it was always kept in Mzwandile's car, and the G3 belonging to Mzwandile and the Z88 and the Uzzi also, belonging to Ndumiso, but it was also always in Mzwandile's possession.  When we were to use these firearm and even when we were still at the rally, these firearms were in the car, meaning that the firearms were always in Mzwandile's position.

MR MGIDLANA: And what were you going to do about these guys after you had questioned them?

FUNDISELE GULENI: After questioning them, we wanted to collect all that information and try and verify that with the TDF, the TDF that was in charge of integrating the Forces.   After that, we would report that to the organisation and tell them that there was that process.  We were asking them, because we did not know what is it that they heard, but we wanted to, we had the aim of verifying this information with the TDF.

MR MGIDLANA: Have you been charged regarding that particular incident in any court?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct, yes.

MR MGIDLANA: Has the case been proceeded with to finality yet, up to now?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, not at all.

MR MGIDLANA: Out of all these people who were from your group, as it were, what - were they also members from, apart from the marshals, how many were members of the SDU?

FUNDISELE GULENI: The SDU members were  Zalisele Matushane, and this other comrade whose name I cannot remember, there was Notheza, that was the surname of this other person, the third person.  Those were the people who were SDU members at the time and myself.

MR MGIDLANA: And the members from MK, apart from Mzwandile whom you believed to be a member of MK, was there any other one who was a member of MK?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, no one.

MR MGIDLANA: So the rest were the marshals?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, they were marshals and the other two were just ordinary comrades, like Mqiza was not a marshall, but he was just a comrade from this other place, and Poyo.

MR MGIDLANA: After having dumped them in that, all right, before they were put in this hole, were their heads or any of their limbs severed from their bodies?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the point of the question?

MR MGIDLANA: Chairperson, it is just that I want to get it clear because I understand that they talk of the skulls as if there were severing of the bodies.  I just wanted to be certain.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that is going to affect our decision, whichever way it goes.

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: All it serves is to raise emotions.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Further questions Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: Is there anything that you would wish to add regarding this incident in particular?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I would like to say something else.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, proceed?

FUNDISELE GULENI: What I would like to mention is that after this whole incident, I reported to the ANC Chairperson.  Secondly, I indicated that I was sorry that this happened and when I heard about this Truth Commission, we told ourselves that we have to appear before this Commission to ask for amnesty because we know that it was not a very good thing and it was not our plan for us to do that at that particular time.  Even when we were questioning them, we wanted to get those details and use them and make sure that we were protected.  It was so unfortunate that someone decided to pull the trigger without any planning from our side.  Lastly, because of the fact that this act is not acceptable and I also want to apologise, not only because I want to escape conviction or prosecution, but I am apologising because I feel it is necessary for me to do so, because truly speaking this all happened because we believed that it was necessary for us not to let things happen as they were happening because our lives were endangered and we couldn't let things happen like that, without questioning.  But the shooting came, though it was not planned, it was not our intention.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you, that is all Judge.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

FUNDISELE GULENI: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Malusi?

MR MALUSI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Guleni, are you known by the alias Mutsi?

FUNDISELE GULENI: (No reply)

MR MALUSI: If I got your testimony correctly sir, it is to the effect that when you first abducted the APLA members, your intention was to get information from them and then to verify their information with the TDF and report to the African National Congress, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: We wanted to get information from these members so that we should be able to give a report to the organisation, the ANC.

MR MALUSI: Yes.  At what time in the morning did you abduct them or did you give them a lift at the bus stop, if you can still remember?