Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 2000-10-09

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.  That's the information that was carried over to me from Lieut Chris Rorich.

MS COLERIDGE: What was the idea of actually destroying the building?  Surely these members could have then just moved to another venue?  Surely that wouldn't deter them.  What was the reason for ...?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: At that point in time, Mr Chairperson, the main objective was, once he's destroyed it, was the time, if I could understand correctly, was the time for them to obtain other premises, so this was just basically like a delay tactic.

MS COLERIDGE: But that doesn't make sense, Mr Flores.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Mr Chairperson, I can't comment on that.  I was from the operation unit.  We didn't do information gathering, we only worked on branches' information, on what they requested, so ...

MS COLERIDGE: Because you can understand that surely these members could use another venue to just have meetings.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I would presume so, Mr Chairperson, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And that wouldn't really deter them by you destroying the building?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Maybe just delay it by an hour or two, but they'd carry on, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: So it is possible, as my instructions, that it could have been related to these COSAS members being detained and being acquitted on that particular day?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I presume so, yes, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Because it also happened very late in the evening, so obviously they were released during the day.  Do you agree with me?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you go back into the area after the incident had occurred?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, it is my instructions that no one was injured.  I just want to refer - may I just have one second, just if I've left out anything?  Mr Flores I've had a request from the community ...(end of tape) they have now rebuilt the Church and they are having a ceremony where they're going to bless the building and so forth, and I've had a request from Father Rodrigues that he's just wanting to know whether, in the spirit of reconciliation, whether you are able or willing, to actually on that particular day, come to the community to the venue and just reconcile with the members or the community members, obviously it's just a question put to you, Mr Flores.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I will make a great effort to be there, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: So you are willing to do that?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, I am.

ADV SANDI: When is this particular day?

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, no date has been established yet.

ADV SANDI: Can I also ask this, what are the full names of the Church?  You keep on referring to Witbank Church.

MS COLERIDGE: It's the Sacred Heart Church and Chairperson, it's not actually the church that's been destroyed, but actually the Church hall and the attacks were all on the Church hall.

CHAIRPERSON: What denomination is that?

MS COLERIDGE: Roman Catholic, Chairperson.  Do you know of any - also in relation to this, do you know of any police members also involved, that probably belong to the congregation and so forth in this incident?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Just repeat again please.

MS COLERIDGE: Do you know of any police members or any police involvement from any members of that particular church in this operation?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No.  No, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, why I've asked the question is just that we want to, just for police members that are part of the congregation, there was a lot of suspicion regarding probably their involvement and so forth and I just wanted to clear that with the applicant.  I want to move on to the next incident.

MR ROSSOUW: Sorry, Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt here.  I was not given an opportunity to cross-examine the witness on this incident where I'm also representing another applicant in this matter.  Maybe it would be appropriate to deal with my cross-examination at this stage, relating to this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are you appearing for an interested party here?

MR ROSSOUW: No, Mr Chairman, I'm appearing for Mr Mosiane, who's an applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: In the same incident?

MR ROSSOUW: In the same incident.

CHAIRPERSON: The Church incident?

MR ROSSOUW: Indeed, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume his application will follow soon?

MR ROSSOUW: His application will follow, yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll bear that in mind.  We'll give you an opportunity once Ms Coleridge has completed her cross-examination.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I've completed my cross-examination in relation to the Witbank incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on and finish whatever you want to do.

MS COLERIDGE: Can I go on to the next incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson.  Just in relation to Comrade Mdo, did you have any photographs of the target?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes.  Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MS COLERIDGE: And who provided you with that?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That would be a section called C2 at Head Office.  They were responsible for all identification of cadres etc.

ADV SANDI: Just explain this.  So that means when you entered Swaziland, you already had this photograph or photographs of this person?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: And you were in the company of Mr Labuschagne, if I understood you correctly?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: But couldn't he see from this photograph that this was his informer?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Mr Chairperson, if - let me restate, we would have gone through the photo album which was known as the photo album of people who left in 1976 during the riots for training abroad, etc., etc., then the photo album was compiled.  I we had the photo with us, I can't say we did, but we must have looked at the photo prior to the operation.

ADV SANDI: When did you get this photo for the first time during this incident?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: As I just explained now, Mr Chairperson, I can't recall if it was prior to entering Swaziland, or if it was the hotel with Mr Greyling that he had the photo with him, but I'm sure we must have had a look at the photo.

ADV SANDI: What I sort of find a bit strange is why Mr Labuschagne could not identify this person on the photo as his informer.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Mr Chairperson, if you do recall, Mr Labuschagne only rejoined us the following day.  I can't recall if he also had a look at the photos.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  What was Labuschagne supposed to do?   What was his actual role?  You say he was supposed to point out hide outs, or whatever it might be, but what  - how did he feature in this whole thing?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Mr Chairperson, prior to Mr Labuschagne, if I can just give a background, prior to Mr Labuschagne joining the Security Branch, he was part of the Narcotics Bureau and worked in Swaziland for something like four to five years and he knew the areas where people hung out etc., etc and then when he joined the Security Branch, Swaziland was his target area which he worked and he operated in and he was very familiar with the Swazi people themselves, he had a lot of friends there, etc. and the main purpose was he would accompany and help us and assist us.

CHAIRPERSON: How did he become involved?  Did de Kock ask him, or what happened?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, if I can recall, I can't speak out of turn now, but it must have been.  I mean he wouldn't just pop up there by himself.

CHAIRPERSON: But were he and Greyling present at the same time with you in Swaziland?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No.  No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: He and Greyling never met in Swaziland?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No.

CHAIRPERSON: During the course of this operation?