Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have also told them during the hearing I do not have any documentation.  Some of the people in Cape Town do not want to talk to me, there is nobody refreshing my memory and somebody, you come here now and you refresh my memory, it makes sense.  I am not running away from it.  Mr Koisan told me earlier that I would get a statement from Jimmy Mbane and he was saying that and that and from Eric Maluleka and everybody, I have never seen those statements.  I received that on Saturday morning.  I had nothing to base my ideas on.  I am not running away from this, it could have been my modus operandi.  I was involved in millions other incidents.  I am not running away, but I had nothing to fall on.
	I am placing it on record, I want to make a full disclosure in all my amnesty applications.  I am not playing games.

MS PATEL: You have placed ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Do you indicate by that, that you have been involved in millions of other incidents where people were killed?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I would not say millions other cases, I was involved in many other cases where people were arrested.  It was a complete and I cannot remember everything.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not talking about an arrest in this application, we are talking about seven people being killed.  Were you involved in many other cases where people were being, were killed?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I was involved in a few other instances, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And are they matters which you have applied for amnesty for?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, in affirmative.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I think we ought to have made available to us all the amnesty applications rather than one out of 11.  Could arrangements be made?

MS PATEL: I will attempt to, thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Bellingan, are these incidents arising out of activities of Vlakplaas in the Western Cape?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It was everything I was involved in while I was at Vlakplaas.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And were you involved in any other incidents of a similar nature here in the Western Cape?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Shooting incidents, no, but sabotage and together with the staff, I was involved in shooting incidents.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MS PATEL: If, Mr Bellingan, something as crucial as you have been taken to the scene on the Friday had occurred, could you then please explain your evidence that it was on the Friday before that you and Mr Liebenberg had gotten together and were concerned that you had not received confirmation, yet, at that stage, of whether the attack would take place or not and that preventative measures would have to be taken?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are now telling us that on Friday he came and took you to the scene?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Whether it was the Friday or the Thursday I was taken to the scene, it was like that.  I cannot specifically say yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, why did you then tell us when you gave evidence in chief that he did not get back to us on, he did not get back to me on the Friday and I realised we would have to take steps to prevent it?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, as I say ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You were not saying you could not remember, you were giving direct evidence that he did not come back to you on Friday as arranged.  Now you tell us he probably, on Thursday or Friday, took you to the scene.  I am afraid I have great difficulty understanding how you could deviate in that way.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I am not trying to mislead the Commission, I am asking your pardon, I must have misunderstood.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you prepared your affidavit and that also appears on paragraph 22 at page 31 of your affidavit.  You were very explicit about that point.  You still expected Mr Mbane to come back to you with further information.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I think I would have expected him to come back with further information.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What further information were you expecting to get from Mr Mbane?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If we could only know where they would gather, where we could arrest them.  If we could just get better information, what Kombi they would be using, for example.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But he had taken you there the very day, he had taken you to the scene of the intended ambush.  That is what you have just told us.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I believe the possibility is there.  If that is what Mbane is saying that there is a place where they are going to launch the attack, I would have asked him, show me the place.  To tell, not to tell him that, how would I know what the scene was like.  I could have told him that, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: With due respect, Mr Bellingan, I have great difficulty in understanding your evidence now, but carry on, Mrs Patel.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood a few minutes ago that when I was intervened when your council objected, that you agree that you now remembered that you were told and taken to the scene on Friday, but when you were asked questions by Mrs Khampepe, you seemed to be drifting away and not saying that you remembered, but saying if he says it, I cannot deny it, which is very different, Mr Bellingan.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I do not want to express myself wrongly.  My normal practice was I would have gone to that scene.  If that is what he is saying, I went there.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember it or do you not?  Do not talk to me about normal practice now, tell me what you can remember, which I thought you were doing a few minutes ago,  as did your council.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, he did take me there, he would have taken me there.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS PATEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	He says, further, that he pointed out the location or the vicinity within which the arms would be put on the scene, that they would plant some of their weapons on the scene beforehand and that location that was pointed out, was more or less in the same vicinity that was pointed out at the inspection in-loco that was held yesterday morning.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, if he showed the certain points, I would have place people nearby to control that.  I cannot say with certainty that that had happened like that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But do you agree that he told you that he would plant arms at certain locations?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I cannot remember.

MS PATEL: He says clearly, Mr Bellingan, that this was done in agreement with you.  That that is the place at which he would leave some of the weapons that they would have come with to the scene.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As I have said previously, I do not have a record on which to fall back.  If that is what he said previously, I am not going to deny it.  It could have happened.

MS PATEL: He also says, Mr Bellingan, that he told you that they would steal a van, that they would then use to come to the area that morning.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  Lieutenant Liebenberg tried to find out what kind of vehicle was stolen in Guguletu and the finer detail regarding this vehicle was obtained by Liebenberg.  He told me he is going to investigate the matter.

MS PATEL: He says further, Mr Bellingan, that it was, he was instructed at more or less which time to drive through that vicinity and that you and your men would be ready waiting for them.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I would have given instruction to depart the same time that the bus usually departed and when that did not happen, we would withdraw.  I would have given him that instructions, yes.

MS PATEL: You say in your application, Mr Bellingan, that you arrived at the scene that morning round about five o' clock.  Is that correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Could you please explain at which points on the map people were placed?