Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman nothing substantial. A lot of the difficulties have already been put by members of the Committee here. But I think my learned friend has argued as best he could in this matter at the same time and that should possibly assist him. If one has reference to the decision of a Committee of which you Mr Chairman was chairman in the matter of BOTHA, SMUTS AND MARAIS and you will remember that of those three I think Botha was refused amnesty on the basis that he had not been given any orders to do what he had done. Mr Chairman you will remember that very briefly the facts in that case were that on a certain morning and close to the beach area in Durban there was an attack upon various members of the public, the majority of whom I believe to have been white-skinned by youths who were said to have been wearing PAC shirts. BOTHA, SMUTS AND MARAIS who were according to them members of what I think was called the Order Boerevolk decided that they would exact revenge and they then went looking for trouble, no more no less. And they shot at a bus carrying completely innocent people who may or may not have been PAC members, may or may not have been ANC members or whatever. As a result of which there were a number of deaths and serious injuries. My recollection is that Smuts and Marais received amnesty. And the problem I have is in regard to consistency. Bearing in mind the provisions of the Act which you and Mr Malan have referred. Those are the only comments I ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: In that case you will recall that the two who got amnesty were acted on the orders and instructions of the (...indistinct) Do you understand?

MR BRINK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That was the distinction between him and the other chaps who did get amnesty.

MR BRINK: That is very true but you know the orders and instructions, with respect were limited in the sense that this was a three man band of which Botha claimed to be the head.

CHAIRPERSON: Well not Botha claimed. It was Botha who, it was undisputed Botha ordered these people to bring their arms because we are going somewhere. We are going to do something. And they gather their arms and they follow him and he then tells them that this is what I am going to do. And I think that because they acted on the orders and instructions of somebody that was a determining factor.

MR BRINK: Yes that is so Mr Chairman and also of course has regard to the questions of proportionality as well which has been raised here. But those are the ...(inaudible) submissions I make.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk before I announce the adjournment of this case I would like to ask you is there anything you would like to submit to us in writing within the next day or two?

MR DE KLERK: ...(inaudible) I will not have the time ...(inaudible) several matters. For this reason I can ...(inaudible) only receive notice last week. So I also have my own trials in the normal courts that I had to postpone and that I quickly had to go there and postpone the matters because of the.

CHAIRPERSON: So there is nothing you wish to add in writing?

MR DE KLERK: No the one statement I can make is that in the indictment it was clear also from the Attorney General that this was politically motivated matter. It was specifically stated in the (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In the indictment?

MR DE KLERK: Yes summary of facts.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the Committee will reserve its decision and give it in due course. Thank you very much. The Committee adjourns and we will resume punctually tomorrow morning Mr Brink at nine thirty.

MR BRINK: I think it is a gentleman from the prisons who is here.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you from the prison? What is your name?

MR NDLOVO: Mr Ndlovo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovo?

MR NDLOVO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your position Mr Ndlovo?

MR NDLOVO: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may not know this but today we lost very valuable time when people whose case was not on were brought here in time and this man whose case was on was not brought for until an hour and a half. Now I have difficulty in understanding how the man whose case was supposed to be head first was not brought and the others brought.

MR NDLOVO: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: At any rate you will have the names of the people whose case is going to be heard tomorrow. Will you make sure that they are brought here in time?

MR NDLOVO: Yes ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. The Committee will adjourn. Mr Brink provisionally we will adjourn until nine 'o clock?

MR BRINK: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Committee adjourns nine 'o clock tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS