Human Rights Violation Hearings — Vryheid — 1997-04-16

WITNESS:   I wouldn't know if he is here.

MR DLAMINI: I mean where does he reside?

WITNESS:   He is my sister's son, so we come from one family.

MR DLAMINI: That means any time we want to get hold of him that's possible.

WITNESS:   Let me backtrack.  According to Nkosinathi, Nkosinathi was the one they were hunting for regarding the police that died.  This is a hearsay.  We had heard that there was something that was happening in Bhekizulu City Hall, and this police was keeping guard outside the hall, and Nkosinathi was one - they alleged that Nkosinathi was one of those who were throwing stones to the police, attacking the police.

MR DLAMINI: Now, tell me about these boys.  The boys who were implicated in this case, where were they from?  What was happening?  What drew them to that scene?

WITNESS:   They were called Comrades at the time, those boys, around the time of 1990.  It was a group of youths with ages ranging around 16.

MR DLAMINI: Was there a Comrades meeting?  What was happening?  Enlighten us.

WITNESS:   I wouldn't know exactly, but there was something going on, and there was this police keeping guard.

MR DLAMINI: Was that police belonging to the SAP or perhaps a security guard?  What kind of a police was he?

WITNESS:   He was not coming from the SAP, but was referred to as third force.  Special constables, not SAP.  That was the kind of a police he was.

MR DLAMINI: Now, the police that came home were ZPs or SAP?

WITNESS:   They were SAP.

MR DLAMINI: Lady, before I hand you back - thank you very much to the girl for helping us.  Let me come back to the old lady before I hand you back to the chairlady.  Have you noticed that your health has been affected since this incident?  Have you also noticed that there are times when you remember your son and you burst in tears?  Also have you noticed you at times drink a lot in an effort to try - trying to forget this thing?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR DLAMINI: We do feel for you, and we are very sorry about what happened to you.  Maybe I should ask if there's any help or medical attention that you get?  Perhaps do you have sessions with the psychologist, pschyiatrist or so?  Do you get any help from such?

WITNESS:   No, nothing.

MR DLAMINI: One thing that touched me is the fact that you are not over what happened to you yet, and I do understand, but please forgive me, I'll have to ask this question, because one of the intention or aims of this Commission is to give opportunity to the people to open up and tell the honest truth, especially that in the past because of the Government of the day people were not given opportunities to lay their stories.  This is why today we have people who are taking statements so you may tell the community at large of South Africa about what happened, and things that emanated out of that.  This is why we have this day today, so we may listen to people like you.  But one other thing that's an objective of this Commission is that after we have ventilated about the atrocities that were committed to us is that we should reconcile as the community of South Africa at large.  The perpetrators, those who committed those atrocities to you, killed your son, according to our records haven't come forth for amnesty, or perhaps sending us to you for forgiveness.  But one question I would like to ask is that, if today those perpetrators could come forth and say, "Commission, because you exist today, we would like to go and meet Mrs Mdlalose to ask for forgiveness," would you be prepared to meet with the perpetrators?  I know they haven't come forward, they have not even admitted an application for amnesty, but still we would like to ask from you, to get a view from you that if they come to you and ask for forgiveness would you be prepared to sit down with them, shake hands with them, and reconcile with them?  Would you be prepared to talk to them?

WITNESS:   I don't think I will allow such an opportunity.

MR DLAMINI: Thanks.  Thank you for responding, because you just told us what you feel from inside.  But do not feel bad, but when they get in touch with us it's our duty that we should get in touch with you.  Thank you, Lady, I will hand over to the Chairlady.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlamini, and we would like to thank you as well.  Before we get done with you I would like to ask from you, and perhaps ask Mr Lax if he has something to say, or a question to ask.

MR LAX: Mrs Mdlalose, there's one aspect that's puzzling me slightly.  The Zulu's on channel three.  Can you hear me now?  Thank you.

WITNESS:   Yes, I can hear you.

MR LAX: The one aspect that had me a little bit puzzled is you spoke about the children of your late son, and you said that the one child is four years old.  I'm a bit puzzled how that's possible.  Was he four years old at the time your son died, or is he four years old now?

WITNESS:   The lady was expectant, three months pregnant, at the time of his death.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... six or seven, not four, because he died in 1990.  I just needed to clear that up.

WITNESS:   I think it's just an assumption that I made because he is this old.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Just one other aspect please, Chairperson.  Which lawyers did you see in Durban?  Do you remember who they were?

WITNESS:   It's Attorney Mlaba.

MR LAX: You never heard anything from them?  You didn't receive letters or anything?

WITNESS:   He used to send people telling us about the case, and at the time we will not even have money.  At times we will receive telephone calls.

MR LAX: Did you ever get a letter from them saying the case was heard on a certain day, this was the outcome, and so on?

WITNESS:   The person who was active at that time was Johan Mnyeni.  He was the one who was forever getting in touch with the attorney.

MR LAX: Where is Mr Mnyeni now?

WITNESS:   He has an office here in town.  I don't know whereabouts down-town.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... a lawyer, or is he ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   No, he is just a worker, or he is self-employed.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... go back to this tragic day, and you've said that the police first came, they looked for Simon, they asked where he was, and they were directed to the room where he was.

WITNESS:   No, the police were not looking for Simon, were looking for Mfana.  They were searching using torches, and only find that Simon's bedroom or room was locked, and they asked why was that room locked, and we told them that it's because he has his girlfriend with.  And they asked to open - they asked Simon to open the door, and he didn't want to open the door, and they started having altercations right then.

MR LAX: Just for the interpreter's sake, the word altercation means a fight, a physical fight.  You keep using that word altercation.  What they had was an argument.  Just so that you're now using the right language.

INTERPRETER: Oh, they were having an argument, not an altercation as such.

WITNESS:   They insisted that he should open the door because he wasn't married anyway.

MR LAX: Now, I just want to try and see what you can remember of the crucial time when he was actually shot.  Were you actually there present yourself?

WITNESS:   I couldn't come close, but I was standing by in the kitchen watching the whole thing.  There were two police who went to call the other white policeman outside, and they told him that he doesn't want to open the door, and the white policeman came and kicked the door open.  When he kicked the door one girl ran away, got out from the room and ran.  These other police suddenly said, "Shoot him," and they did just that.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... time passed between the time that they kicked the door in and the time they shot as far as you can remember?