Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR MALAN: What was the question, or how was the question put to them?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: The question was put to them, "From what political party do you...", or to what political party they belonged to.

MR MALAN: Who was this question put to?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I assume to all the people who were searched.

MR MALAN: Did you hear that at various times?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: If I can remember correctly, Mr Klopper stood in front of them and asked them, "To what political party do you belong?"

MR MALAN: Did he ask it once to each, to all of them?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It could have been more than once.

MR MALAN: Did he ask it individually?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It could have happened like that.

MR MALAN: No, I'm asking you as far as you can remember, because you said you heard it was asked.   Tell us what did you hear what was asked?   If you did not hear, if you cannot remember, you can say that, but if you did hear, I would like to know what you heard?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I heard more than once that he asked them what political party they belonged to.

MR MALAN: In a group, did he ask, "To what political party do you belong to?", meaning the group, or did he ask them individually?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I assumed that he asked it for the group.

MR MALAN: And you said you could not hear the answer?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, I didn't.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

ADV BOSMAN: You gave evidence yesterday that before this incident there was incitement at meetings by Eugene Terreblanche and where General Viljoen was.   You said that there it was told or said to you that there it was told or said to you that you will not allow that the country will be taken over, that you must arm yourself?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: I do not know if I understand you correctly, but you said that you did not own a weapon?   Now that is strange to me, that you attend these meetings, it was said to you that there's a revolution on the way, that you must arm yourself, and you said that you did not have a weapon.   Why is that so?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I did not have money for a weapon.

ADV BOSMAN: This incitement or instructions, did you take it seriously?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I did.

ADV BOSMAN: And how did you thought, how would you take part in this revolution if you did not have a weapon?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, that is why we used pipes, home-made weapons.

ADV BOSMAN: And then the incident itself, you testified that "I assumed that they were from the ANC".   On what grounds did you make this assumption?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, when the group was formed, Mr Klopper said to us that this will be the target group, so I assumed that they told them that they were ANC/SACP alliance members.

ADV BOSMAN: So, apart from the fact that Mr Klopper indicated the target group, you did not have any other grounds for this assumption?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, none.

MR MALAN: On the same question, I'm sorry that I come back to this, how did you know that the target group had to be ANC?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It was said to us that the ANC/SACP alliance was the target group.

MR MALAN: When was this told to you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It was said to us at the roadside cafe.

MR MALAN: That the target was indicated at the roadside cafe that tonight it will be the ANC/SACP alliance?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, yes.

MR MALAN: But nothing was said about the roadblock or how the target will be identified?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: You had one of the pipe shotguns, is that correct?   I've got no technical knowledge about shotguns or a pipe shotgun, but how many rounds could one pipe shotgun take?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, a certain amount of rounds can be shot with a pipe shotgun, it has got a - you put the rounds in the weapon, the shot is fired, you turn it around, remove the shell and then fire again, so you can shoot a certain amount of rounds and then you cannot shoot any further.

ADV BOSMAN: How many rounds did you have in that shotgun?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Only one.

ADV BOSMAN: Is there any specific reason why it was only one round?    Let's say it was necessary for you to shoot more than one?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I did have more than one round with me.    Mr Chairperson, I could not get the shell out and that's why did not shoot off another shot.

ADV SIGODI: Did you notice amongst the people there that there was somebody who could have been in the age group 13?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I saw children at the scene.

ADV SIGODI: How many children?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I'm not sure, I would say it was two.

ADV SIGODI: And were they also lined up for the purpose of being shot?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Were they in fact shot, or you may not know?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, if they was in the line of fire, I would have shot them.

ADV SIGODI: I missed my interpretation?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: If they were in the line of fire, I would have shot them.

ADV SIGODI: I do not understand you.   Are you saying that they were not targeted?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, I would not say that, Mr Chairperson, in a situation of a revolution or war, there's not a distinction between children, women and men, so if they were in the line of fire, I would have shot them or killed them.

ADV SIGODI: So they were also lined up so for the purpose of being shot and killed?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: Would you, in your view, regard them as legitimate targets, in terms of your objectives?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I saw it as follows:  if your parents are ANC, you will also grow up as an ANC member.

ADV SIGODI: Really?   Don't you know that in a multi-party democracy, the father can belong to party No 1, the mother to party No 2, the child to No 3?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, yes.

ADV SIGODI: So I don't understand why you identified the child with the parents' political objectives?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I assumed everybody was ANC members.

ADV SIGODI: I see.   Thank you.

MR MALAN: Mr Visser, just on this point, your own parents, to what political party do they belong?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Currently, no party.   Before, I think they were CP members.

MR MALAN: Were you ever a member of the CP?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I moved in the right-wing area, so it was the Volksfront and the CP.

MR MALAN: But you grew up and became an AWB member?   How does that then correspond with what you've just said?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Like I said, Mr Chairperson, I assumed that they were ANC members, the same as their parents.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, did you see the AWB as a political organisation?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It was a para-military organisation.

MR PRINSLOO: And the members of the AWB, do you know to what political parties they belonged to or what they supported at that stage?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: If they did not belong to the AWB, Mr Chair-person, they were either Volksfront or CP.

MR PRINSLOO: But when they would have voted, what political party would they have voted for?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: You said the AWB was a para-military organisation, so they could not vote for it at an election, but in the politics they would have voted for the Volksfront, Mr Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And the CP, was it regarded as a good political party?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Some would have voted for the CP, I don't know.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you yourself, that evening, when it was, shots were fired at the roadblock, did you aim at a child, to shoot a child?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, Mr Chairperson, I just aimed a gun at the people, I did not specifically aim at an individual.