Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

ADV PRIOR: Madam Chair, there's just one or two points.  	It would seem, Mr Khumalo, that you did not during the 1990 period, you were not involved with the APLA structures at all, is that correct?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And it would seem from your understanding of the repossession units, their primary function was to obtain money, weapons and vehicles that could be used in the struggle, is that correct?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And finally, if a person belonged to a repossession unit, was that a different type of unit than an assault unit, for example a unit that didn't go out to repossess or for example he just went to attack a target like a police station or hotel or whatever?  Was there a clear difference within the PAC/APLA set up of what a repossession unit was and what an ordinary combat unit was?  Just a short response, yes, was there that distinction or not?

JABULANI KHUMALO: There was no distinction.  Let me put it to you, like what the State's machinery has today, you have the traffic cop, traffic department, it's part of the State.  There is CID's, the investigation commission, there's SAP, there is army meaning the Defence Force, they all fall under the State's machinery.   A traffic cop's duty is to stop the person who violates the standing rules of traffic but if he sees the robber he shoots and chases him and arrests him.  That was like that in APLA.  All these units were under APLA and whatever due course in the discretion of the commander at the time will apply even if it's not within a section because that is a military wing under APLA.

ADV PRIOR: Alright thank you, I've not further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Mr Khumalo, do you know the name of Msiki?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes.

MR MALAN: Do you know the individual?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Sorry?

MR MALAN: Do you have his name for us?  Do you know what his real name is?

JABULANI KHUMALO: No, not real name, they operate in the names that could not jeopardise them.

MR MALAN: Ja but he can't be jeopardised now any more.  Do you know Msiki is, can you tell us what his real name is or don't you know who he was?

JABULANI KHUMALO: That's what I'm saying that I know Msiki, he came to my place, I once met him but I don't know his real name.

MR MALAN: Yes but, okay.  You know Lebo is the applicant?

JABULANI KHUMALO: I know Lebo, yes.

MR MALAN: But you don't know who Msiki is?

JABULANI KHUMALO: Yes and I know Lebo is Maseko like when he was in prison.

MR MALAN: Yes, yes, but you don't know who Msiki is?  Do you know who Junior is?

JABULANI KHUMALO: I know Junior.

MR MALAN: Have you met him?

JABULANI KHUMALO: I've met him.

MR MALAN: Do you know what his real name is?

JABULANI KHUMALO: I don't know his real name.  That's what I'm trying to say to you that until such time that we come to contact with - you can reveal your really name, I would not know.  I only know Thapelo Maseko, it's Thapelo Maseko, it's when he was arrested when he told that I should visit him in prison - "Oh, it's you Maseko?"  I know him by then at the time.

MR MALAN: Right, do you any of the other comrades of the applicant that he mentions in his application?

JABULANI KHUMALO: No, I don't know the one that he mentioned as part of the units.

MR MALAN: You don't know Lumumba or Telo or Small Baby or any one of them?

JABULANI KHUMALO: No I never even met them.  If I do, I did met them it would be another name maybe.  Physically when they come I'll say "Oh, it's you John, you were Lubumba then", I don't know but for now I will assume that I haven't met them because that name I've never come across.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, now that we actually take the wind out of your sails by not giving you an opportunity to re-examine, do you want to re-examine?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair. I have no re-examination Madam Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo you may step down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Where do we proceed from here Mr Mbandazayo?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chair, I have no other witness to call except that I would like that the affidavit of Letslape Mpashele be made part of the evidence which is before this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we mark that B, Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you want to then close your case?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chair, that's the evidence of the applicant at this stage, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Madam Chair, I do not propose to lead any evidence other than what was put up in the bundles and I ask specifically that the Committee take cognisance of the judgement which is evidence before the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Mbandazayo, are you ready to give us an oral address?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair.  It seems though I'm ready to give oral address.  Madam Chair and the Honourable Members of the Committee, I won't bother the Committee as they are aware of some of the submission of the PAC with regard to these incidents, especially with regard to their attitude to the so-called Whites and also repossession units as their targets and political targets.
	Madam Chair, my argument based is that I'll only confine myself Madam Chair on the question of disclosure.  I'll take it Madam Chair, the reason why I - this Committee accedes that Maseko was a member of APLA and PAC which is a recognised political organisation.  I'll take it also Madam Chair, if we take into account what happened in court that also most of the cases you'll find that people do deny their involvement, they also deny their membership and such, but it's one of those cases where from the beginning it was never an issue, it was clear that Maseko was a member of APLA and what he did then was in pursuance of that struggle and as such, Honourable Members of the Committee, that's why I'm saying that I wouldn't like to - unless the Committee wants me to address on those points, I'll accept it that it's accepted that he was a member of the PAC and that, what he did at that particular point in time was in pursuance of the struggle and also of his mission as a member of APLA and also the member of the repossession unit.
	Honourable Members of the Committee, I would like to address you on the affidavit, tie his evidence with the affidavit of Letlape Mpashlele...[inaudible] was not reporting at Umtata, that is Maseko, but Madam Chair, Letlape was not a director of operations when he was in Umtata.  Letslape Mpashlele gave this affidavit because of this incident, he was aware of this as the director of operations.  Madam Chair, I know that I'm not giving evidence, you can see that it's signed in Umtata on the 19th August.  I had to trouble myself to go to Umtata to him and obtain the affidavit which was signed by him, asking him, I happened to have the bundle, about all these incidents and he happened to know that's why he made this affidavit in respect of this operation and also to throw some light about the repossession unit.  It was specifically for this operation because before he came inside the country he was a director of operations outside the country, so he came - and stationed in Umtata, so he was aware of this operation so it's because of that that he gave this affidavit and Madam Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee, it's my submission that the operation which Thapelo Maseko was involved is confirmed by the director of operations, the former director of operations, Letslape.