Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

MR WILLS: Now the picture you create in the affidavit that was submitted after these proceedings commenced is an entirely different one.  Is that not so?  You indicate that you, before hand, in fact on the 14th, when you met with, on Saturday the 14th when you met with Botha before these two people were murdered, that you more or less gave Col Botha the tacit go-ahead to kill these people was he not in a position to get Ndaba's mind right.  I want you to explain why you didn't mention this in your first application.

J A STEYN: During the first application for amnesty we did it on our own and we had urgency of time factor which pressurised us and all of us and probably especially myself, did not give all the facts completely in the first application.

MR WILLS: Are you saying that you weren't assisted by legal advisers on the first application?

J A STEYN: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Are you, you're obviously aware of the details of Botha's first application, that is the application attached to his affidavit which was signed on the 13/12/1996, because you say so in your application?

J A STEYN: Yes.

MR WILLS: You incorporate that application into your application?

J A STEYN: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now in that application he doesn't mention the fact that he had any discussions with you pertaining to the elimination of Ndaba before then.

J A STEYN: His position could possibly have been the same as mine that as a result of the pressure of time on us, we simply expressed ourselves as well as we could in our applications so that the applications could be lodged timeously.

MR WILLS: My understanding is, is that the five of you collaborated quite extensively with each other as far as the facts concerned and the information you put into your application?  You got together as a group and discussed your applications?

J A STEYN: Yes, we did discuss the applications.

MR WILLS: And you made sure that everything fitted prior to your handing them in, there were no contradictions?

J A STEYN: No, the idea was that we should try and see what we could remember because these things happened a long time ago and in the process you try and get the best information and you might be reminded of something by somebody else and on that basis you chat to the next person to try and find out whether you could actually arrive at the best possible picture of the facts.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Well it seems to me that this crucial meeting of the 14th where you actually tacitly give an order for an elimination, wouldn't be something that you'd forget, with respect.

J A STEYN: The fact of the matter was that we didn't at that stage enjoy legal representation.  We didn't have it for all our applications and I want to repeat that our point of departure was that we were trying to compile the best possible document which would indicate at least that we were applying for amnesty and if there were certain aspects which we omitted to mention, it wasn't done deliberately.

MR WILLS: My question with respect, Mr Steyn, is that in these discussions you wouldn't forget such an important aspect as when you actually took a decision which might have resulted in somebody's life being taken away, it was an important decision, it is something that you wouldn't forget.  Is that correct?

J A STEYN: No, no, Chairperson, the point is that and here I want to repeat myself, these things happened a long time ago and it's possible that we forgot to mention certain facts which later, after we discussed the matter with each other, we'd reminded each other of certain aspects which then came to the fore.

MR WILLS: But before you filled this application in, you were already discussing the matter with each other.

J A STEYN: We were under pressure.

MR WILLS: So are you saying to the Committee, Mr Steyn, that you did forget that you had this discussion on the 14th prior to you filling your application in, your first application?

J A STEYN: Please repeat the question.

MR WILLS: Are you saying, in answer to my question, that you did forget this important meeting that you had with Mr Botha where you said that "if you can't get Ndaba's head right, just take him out"?

J A STEYN: That is so, but at that stage, and this probably applied to more than one of us, we didn't look at all the facts and we couldn't remember all the facts, yes.

MR WILLS: I want to first turn...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on to something else, Mr Wills, this you say happened on the 14th?  Now Mr Botha refers to a meeting with Gen Steyn on the 14th doesn't he?

MR WILLS: My understanding of that meeting in that application Mr Chairperson, is that he referred to the meeting but he didn't refer to the fact that Gen Botha had indicated that had he not got Ndaba's head right, he could be eliminated.  That's in dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: The point I'm making is that Gen Botha does remember a meeting on that day, he hasn't forgotten the fact that they met on that day.

MR WILLS: Yes, Botha hasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: And Gen Steyn said he had seen, he incorporated Botha's affidavit.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman and may I just refer you to the last sentence of the first paragraph at page 17 of the bundle?

MR LAX: Of course that was on the 13th, but anyway, it was a different meeting, that was on the 13th of July.  If you read from the previous paragraph on page 16
"On the Saturday morning I went to speak to Gen Steyn in his office and I informed him and he told me etc"
about people not being arrested etc so that wasn't the 14th.

CHAIRPERSON: Saturday was the 14th.

MR VISSER: No, no, he says the 13th.  Mr Chairman, perhaps I'm the one that is

CHAIRPERSON: Saturday was the 14th and if he said he was told about the meeting the day before in Pretoria.

J A STEYN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, my point is the specific aspect of the, of this witness tacitly giving the go-ahead to the elimination, but be that as it may, I'll continue from this point.  I want to concentrate on the period prior to Mr Ndaba's arrest.  You indicate in your second application that you were aware of the fact that Mr Ndaba was in fact an informer.

J A STEYN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now when did you first become aware of this?

J A STEYN: It was brought to my attention again after Ndaba came back to South Africa.

MR WILLS: So was it - did you know about this earlier then, when he returned to South Africa?

J A STEYN: Earlier on in 88 Botha had made contact with Ndaba.

MR WILLS: Yes, I know that.  I just wanted to know, did you know as early as 1988 that Ndaba had become an informer?

J A STEYN: Yes.  I can remember that high-ranking people and several people in Swaziland and other neighbouring countries had already at early stage, 86, 87, 88, had been recruited.  Now if I have to state today that I can remember specific names, then that would not be correct, but I can imagine that, but I don't want to say something if I'm not 100% sure.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I'm being asked about a tea break by my colleague.  I don't know if you want to continue since we started late, or shall we take a tea break at this stage?

CHAIRPERSON: It's not only us that we have to consider.  I imagine members of the audience may have been sitting here for some time waiting for us to starts and if - 11 o'clock, is that the normal time?  Very well, we'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

J A STEYN: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: ...(microphone not on) continues, may I ask whether you will grant an indulgence to us if protocol succumbs to the heat in the building and we can take our jackets off?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: (cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I just want to go back a little bit, Mr Steyn.  You say that you were well aware of the fact that Mr Ndaba was an informer prior to his arrest?

J A STEYN: Correct.