Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MR VISSER: My note says he, referring to Mamome, and I, took the letter to the priest during the night.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood he has just said I went with him at night and we handed the letter over to the minister.  He has said it two minutes ago, he handed the letter over?
	That is what you said, isn't it Mr Motsamai.  A minute or two ago you said you went with him at night and you handed the letter over to the priest?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, we put it under the door.

ADV MEMANI: If it was not pertinently stated in evidence, it might be that I was influenced by instructions My Lord.

MR VISSER: Well, is Mr Memani now admitting that he received different instructions from what the evidence under oath from this witness was?

ADV MEMANI: No, no, no, you can't deliberately ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The witness has just changed somewhat his handing over to saying and we put it under the door.  But that again may be a use of language rather than ... the letter was in fact received, I understand.  Or a letter was received at some stage.

MR VISSER: We have heard no evidence of that Mr Chairman, not that I am aware of.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you make enquiries?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We can probably find out.

MR VISSER: I am sure you are addressing my learned friend, Mr Brink now.

CHAIRPERSON: It is contained in the report of the Investigators.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, can you kindly proceed and see whether we could finish this by Friday afternoon, because we would like to know what is your people's intention?  Until when would you like to keep us here, but leave that now, keep it in mind and please proceed with the evidence.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with great respect, I am not keeping anybody here.  I am busy doing a case here.  I've been sitting here very cooperatively for two weeks, in fact since March this year.

ADV DE JAGER: Please proceed, that is all I am asking you to do.  Ask your questions.

MR VISSER: Look at page 148 of Bundle A, paragraph 13.  You heard the evidence of Mr Ngo that he was involved in the torture and assault of comrades who were arrested which torture and assault took place at Bloemfontein, you heard that evidence?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is what you referred to in your paragraph 13 a reference to the same incident or not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is correct, it includes all the incidents that happened in the office.

MR VISSER: I want you to be absolutely clear in your mind what I am asking you.  The reference to Mr Ngo to comrades that were assaulted and tortured at Fountains Street in Bloemfontein, is that the very same incident you are referring to in your paragraph 13?  I just want you to be absolute certain of what I am asking you?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it quite clear that what he has just told you is that paragraph 13 is supposed to refer to all the assaults and tortures that took place at the office, Not one incident?

MR VISSER: That is precisely the point Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, get on with it, that is the answer he gave you.  He said it includes all the incidents at the office.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I have a difficulty here.  Mr Ngo refers to an incident where 20 to 25 people were brought in one group to this building.  I understand what you are telling me.  Mr Motsamai says, I am talking about all of that and all the others.
	But there is a problem Mr Chairman, and if we had a lot of time, we could go through it and work it out, there is a problem with names because Mr Motsamai in his application, gave no names.  He later came and gave a list of 26 odd names.	
	Now, those are not necessarily the people that Mr Ngo refers to and I want to be fair to this witness.  I want him to place on record precisely whether he was involved or whether he wasn't involved when a group of 20 to 25 people were interrogated.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask him about that incident.

MR VISSER: That is what I am trying to do Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You weren't, you were trying to ask him if his paragraph 13 covers only that incident and he said it covers all the incidents.

MR VISSER: No, that is not what I meant Mr Chairman, and if my question was incorrectly put, I will put it again.
	Do you know of an incident where 20 to 25 people were arrested by the South African Defence Force, taken to Ladybrand and transferred to Bloemfontein, to Fountains Street police building?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I think Mr Stander asked me about that and you were not paying attention.

MR VISSER: Is that your answer, because I am quite happy to go on that answer?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I am saying to you that yes, that is so.  What I said we arrived and found these people there.  They were brought there by Jantjie and the others.  As we entered, we started ordering them to perform frog jumps.
	And then we were given an instruction that we must assault them.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You heard the evidence about Mr Ngo about this incident  how you were divided into two groups, who the people were that gave the instructions and who were involved.  You heard the evidence, you were present here weren't you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I heard Ngo's evidence, but we have been separated into two groups.  The group that I am referring to is MK group and the ANC group.  You understand that this is two groups meaning we were all in there together on the fifth floor.

MR VISSER: So are you saying you were not, are you saying you were not divided into two groups?  I mean the comrades were not divided into two groups, the two groups were that they were MK's and ANC's is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Please repeat your question, sir.  Seemingly there is somewhere where you get lost.

MR VISSER: Were the members of the Security Branch divided into two groups?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I explained yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  And were the two groups, were the comrades separated into different offices?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No sir.  No sir.  They were all in the passage.

MR VISSER: At all times during the course of every day in which you made them from jump, etc they were in the passage, is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes sir.

MR VISSER: So, is Mr Ngo incorrect when he told this Committee that they were taken into different offices and in fact the leaders were later taken down to the fourth floor, to the Special Investigating Unit?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is so.  The leaders were taken to the fourth floor after they performed frog jumps and a lot of things.  The group that we were left behind with on the fifth floor, was with us.

MR VISSER: I am afraid my question was a multiple question and let me put the other part which you haven't replied to.
	Mr Ngo also gave the impression, I suggest to you, that the comrades were taken to different offices on the fifth floor.  You see, I will tell you why he said that and what the purpose of the question is, he said that he couldn't see from where he was what was happening to the comrades in the other offices.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.  Not that we were given instructions in the morning to get the information.  As they were performing frog jumps, we would just pick from there.  If you felt that you would recruit this one or you could get information from this one, you would take that person and  talk to that person in there.  Those who are along the passage, could hear what is happening on the other side of the passage.

MR VISSER: All right.  Now, in regard to this group that was interrogated, what would you say if there was evidence to say that these people were regularly visited by government medical officials and by senior police officers while they were detained?