Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to suggest, I don't know these men or, I mean that panel over there wanted to, they said they have a few more questions which I think cannot be canvassed this evening, we had hoped we're going to finish but I think that we are on to very important and serious matters and I would therefore ask that you would be willing to return tomorrow.  I think everything aside, the fact that you are able to say this is how you operated, you know I mean that you heard, I was looking here and you have put it down in one of the pages here where you say, we didn't hear or we were not aware of the fact that those people on the other side were fighting for freedom and I think we've got to express appreciation for that kind of candour.  And in your answer to the questions, we can't go beyond what you're saying.  I mean that you were in a particular milieu and if Kirchoff or whoever spoke, you didn't actually listen to his words, it was he belonged to that group and that group was in turn, it is part of the communist onslaught and so you dismissed them.  And I think I mean that for us as we seek to prepare a report, you have to say how do you ensure that we don't have people in government who can have blind spots and I don't know what you say about ear spots, where you can't hear.  Because we mustn't feel, or people who are now in charge of the country must not think that it is peculiar that to you, we must know that it can happen to any human being and that is part of the purpose of this Commission.  We've got to know and this is why I say theology is very important, theology speaks about something called original sin, that it is possible, in fact probable, that people will be subverted by power and it doesn't matter whether they are black or white or whatever and whatever their ideals. And so we must all have an incredible kind of modesty and ways to express just on this issue an appreciation for what you have just said and the thrust of some of your answers.  I think I mean that we are grateful for that candour.
 We will resume at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning, you thank very much.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION ON 15 OCTOBER 1997

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Let us just have a moment of silence please.
HEARING COMMENCES WITH A PRAYER

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  Welcome again to this second day of the session on the State Security Council.  Let me introduce, because the panel has changed, one person in it has changed but I will introduce the whole panel assuming that people didn't know that we have the same panel.  At the extreme right is Dr Fazel Randera, who is a Commissioner, a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee, but is also the boss man in charge of this Gauteng region.  Fazel I just wanted to say thank you to you and your colleagues here for the preparations that you have made and Patrick Kelly and the staff who are ensuring that this thing goes smoothly.  We just wanted to say thank you very much for your help in that regard.
 Wynand Malan is a Commissioner and a deputy-chairperson of the Human Rights Violations Committee and is based in our office here; Dr Alex Boraine, deputy-chairperson of the Commission we are based in our headquarters in Cape Town; Yasmin Sooka a Commissioner and deputy-chairperson of the Human Rights Violations Committee based here;  Dumisa Ntsebeza, he is a Commissioner and head of our Investigative Unit, based in Cape Town;  Ilan Lax is a member of our Human Rights Violations Committee based in KwaZulu Natal; and then John Daniel, researcher and Paul van Zyl is executive secretary of the Commission, and Glen Goosen director of our Investigative Unit and chief questioner, I nearly said inquisitor, questioner;  Nikki Rousseau, a researcher.  And then our wonderful people in the booth there, they are our translators who are always doing a superb job of work.  There you are.  
 Right you are.  We are continuing, and thank you very much for coming.  We re-welcome you.  Glen.  I learn I have to remind you that you are still under oath even if you slept over it.  Thank you very much.

ADRIAAN VLOK: (s.u.o.)

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.  Mr Vlok, for the benefit of yesterday evening I have obviously considered your submission, the evidence that you have given thus far.  In essence you base your acceptance of responsibility on the fact that you concede negligence in respect of certain actions performed by you and your Cabinet colleagues.  You deny any intention to authorise unlawful action.  You concede that operatives could have misinterpreted instructions.  From the scores of amnesty applications that we've received we glean that those applicants believed that authorisation was in fact granted.  The two positions fit neatly.
 Now what I intend doing in the course of the questions that I will pose to you today is to explore the credibility of that scheme.  I want to begin with some passages from your submission yesterday and refer you to page 34 of that submission, paragraph 8.3.  You are dealing there with what is termed "surrogate forces" and I would like to read it to you.
"I was told that Mr Craig Williamson, who testified before the Commission, that the principle of your enemy's enemy is your friend, and that it led to so-called surrogate forces being established by the government or supported by the government.
 I must honestly say that if that was indeed the case I was unaware of it.  By this I am not trying to say that there were never situations where one of two warring factions' interests did not correspond with that of the South African Police.  However, in my view that is not the same as saying that the government or the South African Police indeed supported such a faction".
 I want to refer you to some of the documentation that was made available to you and in particular it's an extract from the State Security Council meeting and the document which is appended to that, it was on the 25th of August 1986, at that stage you were a member of the State Security Council and agenda item 4 dealing with "strategy for the combatting of the ANC", and that is the document which is appended to that.  Page 3 of that document, Item G, there is a portion which says -
"In respect of the potential for friction between the ANC and similar organisations such as the PAC, AZAPO and all forms of factional activities and the battle for leadership, to exploit this for own benefit".
And then a bit further down -
"As far as the existence or establishment or development..."
...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman could we be referred to the exact document that Mr Goosen is referring to?  They have been marked by somebody from A to I.  I am not...

MR GOOSEN: It's K.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman we only received A to I ...(intervention)
Microphone not switched on

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman it's been pointed out to us that it's part of Annexure E.  And what paragraph are you referring to?

MR GOOSEN: I am sorry about the confusion.  It is on page 3 of the document, of the Annexure to the minutes.  It's paragraph G.  Do you have it?
"To exploit for own gain the potential for friction between the ANC and other organisations such as the PAC and AZAPO and any form of friction between these fractions.
 In respect of the existence or the development of moderate black groupings, parties, individuals etc, which could act as a counter for the ANC to support that".
Could you comment on that outline, that strategy outline which was adopted and approved by the State Security Council on the 25th of August 1986 in the light of your statement at page 34 of your submission.