Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stuart, when it is a convenient time, we are informed that tea is ready, so we can take the tea adjournment, but - would this be a convenient time or are you still on this point?

MR STUART: I have just one further question on this point Mr Chairperson, thank you.  The meeting that you have spoken about Mr Luthuli, where you say the President of the IFP was there and he spoke to you and Mr Mkehle, what meeting was that?  Who else was there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The entire Cabinet was there.

MR STUART: The Cabinet of KwaZulu?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR STUART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now take a short adjournment for tea, let's say 15 minutes.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (still under oath)

MR STUART: (continued)  Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Luthuli, you have told us about the various practises that you found in Mpumalanga which you found to be improper and that you wanted to root out.  What tactics did you embark upon with the Inkatha people there, to strengthen Inkatha?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that when I arrived there, Inkatha youth members used to act like they were entitled to killing people.  There were cars that were known to the community that if you happen to see that car, you would be killed.
	Or if there was an attack, they would act that they had the legitimate right to do so.  To such an extent that people would be able to identify the people who say killed or burnt down their houses.
	I then decided that it would be better to do this operation or to carry out this operations in a covert manner and most instances, they would boast that even the Police were members of the IFP.
	They wouldn't tell them that they shouldn't carry out the activities in the open.   They thought that they could do anything and everything in public and in broad daylight.
	I was then advising them or advised them to do things in more appropriate ways.

MR STUART: Do I understand you to be saying that there were attacks which you encouraged, but that they happened at night?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true yes, because I was trying to teach them not to do things openly.

MR STUART: And was this strategy discussed at that meeting of the Cabinet which you told us about?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.  I went to the Cabinet meeting because Mkehle had complained that I do not allow for people to be killed.
	But I did not agree with the manner in which it was done.

MR STUART: I am now going to move on Mr Luthuli, to some events in Claremont.  How was it that you came to work with Mr Yamile, Samuel Yamile of Claremont?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It happened that Yamile was attacked with hand grenades.  I was then called by M.Z. Khumalo who said I should go to Claremont urgently to protect Mr Yamile.
	Mr Yamile would then explain to me whom he suspected to be responsible for this attack.  I left Ulundi and went to Claremont.
	When I was already in Claremont, some Caprivi trainees arrived.  They were ferried by kombi's.  The reason for this was that Mr Yamile owned certain properties that had to be guarded.

MR STUART: What was Mr Yamile's position in Claremont?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: At the time he was the Chairman of the IFP in Claremont.

MR STUART: Did he have a position in the KwaZulu government at that time?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: At that time he was not yet the Deputy Minister, he was just an MP.

MR STUART: Was it identified for you who was alleged to be behind the attack on Yamile?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The main person that he mentioned was Mr Zazi Khuzwayo.  He mentioned a few others, but he seemed to have a main problem with Mr Khuzwayo and that they had made many attempts on his life, but never succeeding.
	He wanted Mr Khuzwayo to be killed first.

MR STUART: Was this discussed with M.Z. Khumalo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.  When I went to Mr Yamile, I had previously spoken to M.Z. Khumalo to discuss why I was being sent there, that is to protect Mr Yamile to give him guards who would protect his properties, because they were being burnt and he was not free to move in the area.  He had to be escorted so that he could move around and address meetings.

MR STUART: Will you tell us briefly about the murder of Zazi Khuzwayo and your involvement in it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The death of Zazi Khuzwayo was initiated by M.Z. Khumalo.  He sent me to meet Mr Yamile.  Yamile would then give me the names of all the people who had to be killed in Claremont, but the most urgent person who had to be killed, was Zazi Khuzwayo.
	When I arrived at Yamile's house, I already knew that the person to be killed most urgently was Zazi.  When I arrived there, Yamile complained mostly about Zazi Khuzwayo.  He said that if we could kill Mr Khuzwayo, it would be easy to convert Claremont into an IFP area.

MR STUART: Who was involved with you, in the incident to kill Zazi Khuzwayo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: People who murdered Zazi Khuzwayo were Pumlani Mshengo, Nosboo Bengu.   Alex Khumalo and Wela Quno were to guard and assist those who were supposed to kill Zazi.
	The guns that were used by the two Nosboo Bengu and Pumlani Mshengo were given to them by me.  I gave them 38 Special's.  The reason for this was that they do not leave empty cartridges on the scene that could be traced by the Police.
	Alex Khumalo and Wela were given 9 mm pistols and they had to stand guard.
	Yamile then had to - because we didn't know Zazi Khuzwayo, the person who knew Zazi was Yamile.  Yamile then gave us somebody by the name of Masizi Hlope.  This person knew Zazi Khuzwayo well.
	When he recognised Khuzwayo, he would inform those who were supposed to kill him, of his whereabouts.  We planned this at Yamile's house.  Then it happened Masizi got into the car driven by Yamile's son, Hleganpani.  The reason for this was that we didn't know Claremont well.
	Hleganpani was the only person who knew the area well.  When they left Yamile's house, it was Hleganpani driving.  Masizi Hlope was going to identify or point out Zazi Khuzwayo.
	They then left ...

MR STUART: Did you go with them?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I remained at Yamile's house.

MR STUART: What do you understand happened?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Two people went into Zazi Khuzwayo's property.  I was told by the people who murdered him.  I then thereafter heard that the two people that I have already mentioned, went into the shop and killed him.

MR STUART: What further involvement did you have in that incident?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: After they killed Mr Khuzwayo, they fled to Hammersdale.  I received a telephone call from Hammersdale to leave the area.  I then told them to remain where they were.  The reason for this was that I was apprehensive that when the UDF heard that Mr Khuzwayo had been killed, they will retaliate and attack Yamile's house.
	I then went to fetch them and returned with them.  But Nosboo Bengu and Pumlani Mashengo were left at Hammersdale because it could happen that they were seen because they had not camouflaged or hidden their faces, so I advised them to remain at Hammersdale, to hide there and not to go to Claremont.

MR STUART: Mr Luthuli, moving on, there was a time when you went to the home of Nkosi Nqobo in the Mafunzi area.  Why did you go there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I received instructions from M.Z. Khumalo that chiefs or amakozi from the Pietermaritzburg area were complaining that they had a problem, that they were being attacked by the UDF.
	So then I was asked to send Caprivi trainees to the area.  I went around (indistinct) Ntombela's area as well as to Nkosi Nqobo's area.

MR STUART: What was the difficulty that the people had with Nkosi Nqobo?