Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: This will go in as Exhibit E - this plan.  It's shaded in, you have three different colours, where they put in by you?  The shading is done by you?

MR PRIOR: They were inserted at my request by Mr Killian, simply to assist with the easy identification of the road numbers Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, that will be received.  Is there anything else Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: There's nothing further, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Miss Qunta?

MS QUNTA: Judge, just on the map issue, I have just looked at it and I noticed that the representation Mr Mark Killian drew and especially with NY113 which I have in front of me and which you don't have, the location of  NY29 and 113 is at different angles, it's not quite the same.  I'm going to give it back to Mr Mark Killian - his drawing and perhaps rather than delay the Committee now, if - I'm not going to cross-examine the witness immediately on this issue so perhaps if Mr Mark Killian can assist by just checking both and seeing if his representation is in fact correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MS QUNTA: He's just pointed out to me that in fact it's substantially similar.  If I would just request Mr Chairman, that when the map is placed before the witness that it's not highlighted, that an unhighlighted one is placed before the witness but I don't intend right now to cross-examine on that.

CHAIRPERSON: When you have all the numbers of the roads printed on the map, does it make too much difference?

MS QUNTA: I think it could Mr Chairman, I think it could.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, let's proceed with this witness.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, yesterday ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it, I'd like him to be sworn in.

ADV SANDI: We would like to remind you Mr Sibaya, that you're still under oath, thank you.

MS QUNTA: Yesterday you indicated at the start of your evidence in chief that when you made the statement to the police on the 5th of January, you told them everything including the registration number of the white vehicle that you saw, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: Now, you told the Committee here and to Mr John Lubbe that a piece of paper fell from the car.

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes.

MS QUNTA: And that that piece of paper contained a map.

CHAIRPERSON: A diagram probably, more than a map.

MS QUNTA: A diagram, thank you Mr Chairman - a diagram which had certain words on it - Heidelberg and contained certain directions, now you felt that that was quite an important document that's why you say that you took it to the police station.

BENNET SIBAYA: No English translation

MS QUNTA: Can I get a response from the witness?  I will repeat what I just said, you felt that that piece of paper was quite important and that is why you took it to the police station.

BENNET SIBAYA: What do you mean by important or significant?

JUDGE WILSON: Well, why did you take it to the police station?

BENNET SIBAYA: The reason I took this paper to the police station is because that car was being stolen, perhaps the paper would have evidence that this car did not belong to these people.  I thought that there were people's names on the paper because it was an XA or Umtata registration, I realised that the car was not from Cape Town.

MS QUNTA: Now, if you felt that the paper contained significant information, why did you not mention it in your statement to the police on the 5th of January?  I note that you did not mention that, can you explain why you didn't do that?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was because that paper was torn in Guguletu so there was no paper to talk about anymore.

MS QUNTA: No, my question is - you said to us that you told the police everything that happened on that night, there is nothing in this first statement about a map.  The map or diagram story only comes in four years later, four years after the event this is mentioned.

BENNET SIBAYA: Please listen carefully Madam, the people to whom I gave the statement said that they do not write down when there is no evidence, it seemed like just a story now that the paper was not there - they said that I must talk about something concrete.

JUDGE WILSON: But everything you told them was just a story, or most of it that you wrote down and they wrote it down.  An you said the man was wearing one of those sports caps, dark in colour - they wrote that down.

BENNET SIBAYA: What man?  What man are you talking about?

JUDGE WILSON: I'm referring to your statement to the police, paragraph 9.

BENNET SIBAYA: In the statement I said that the one man had a cap on.

JUDGE WILSON: That was just something you said but the police wrote it down,  why didn't you say: "They dropped a piece of paper that I picked up"?

BENNET SIBAYA: I am telling you my perception of the whole incident, it is how I saw it.  I gave in the statement everything that I saw, however the police said they're not going to write down what I don't have or about what I don't have.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, I want to put it to you that what you've just said is not correct, that there was no diagram, there was no vehicle on that evening, there was no diagram, that diagram is a figment of your imagination at best or you were instructed after the Heidelberg Tavern incident and the investigations began, to fabricate the existence of a diagram.

BENNET SIBAYA: Who gave me that order?

MS QUNTA: Well I want you to tell us - you've said a lot about Superintendent Segal, he seems to have had a lot to do with telling you what to put in the statement and not what to put in the statement.  So perhaps you can you can tell the Committee who instructed you in the first place to make the statement to the police and how and who coached you what to put in and what not to put in, perhaps you can tell us now.

BENNET SIBAYA: This is not clear to me, do you think somebody would just say to you  must fabricate because that would come back to you - the truth always comes out.

MS QUNTA: Well, we are trying to get to the truth now Mr Sibaya, and I can tell you that very little of what you said here is truthful except your name and perhaps your age and your address because we've verified that, everything else seems to be an utter fabrication.

BENNET SIBAYA: Are you saying that this is all not true?

MS QUNTA: Yes, I'm putting it to you that this is a fabrication, everything that is contained in your statement to the police and your statement to Lubbe - Mr Lubbe, is  a fabrication.

MR PRIOR: With respect Mr Chairman, I think that's a bit unfair because the objective evidence indicates that the dark coloured car used in the Heidelberg attack in fact was found in road 129 as well as a cap that was linked to one of the applicants, Mr Mabala.

MS QUNTA: Perhaps we're not dealing here with objective evidence, we want corroborated evidence and there is no corroboration about a cap or a car.  The fact of a mention of a dark vehicle Mr Chairman, all the witness has said that he saw a dark vehicle and I will come to that right now.  There is no evidence about the colour of the vehicle, about the registration of the vehicle so perhaps my learned friend is overstating the matter when he says there is objective evidence.  There is no corroboration whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, there may be no corroboration but that doesn't mean that the evidence is not there.

MS QUNTA: Well, Mr Chairman, if I wanted to frame someone - after the investigation begins, I find a cap on the premises, I can say to a witness says that you found this cap and this is what I'm suggesting to the witness.  He has been primed and I'm going to get to that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I can understand your desire to get to the truth, we're all interested in that but I'm just saying that sometimes evidence is not corroborated but that doesn't mean that it is not evidence.