Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Madame Chair.  I'm representing Themba Mshini Ngcobo who is applying for amnesty for the killing of Mpumelelo Phewa, Amos Cele and Simpson Mavundla as well as the attempted killing of Mfani Cele on the 20th July 1991.  I'll start by ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He is not applying for robbery?

MR MOLOHLANYE: I was coming to that.  I'd like to apply for amendment of the application to include robbery because it was part of the act.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he give any details of the robbery?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: In his application?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No, in his application he did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you agree with us that he was not convicted of the robbery?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes I do agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And he is doing so for the purposes of full disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Madame Chair.  I have an affidavit of Mr Themba Ngcobo which I would like the Committee to take into notice.

CHAIRPERSON: The affidavit will be accepted as Exhibit B.  Mr Ngobo, we have Exhibit B in front of us.  Do you know the contents of Exhibit B?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: This will be accepted Mr Molohlanye as

EXHIBIT B: .  Do you wish to lead him further?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Notwithstanding the fact that we are accepting this affidavit as evidence?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Only on particular issues that I wish to clarify.

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you.
	Mr Ngcobo, you said you were a member of ANC.  What position did you hold?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I was a commander.

MR MOLOHLANYE: May you tell us who elected you in this position?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I was elected by the community of Malukazi.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Your role as a commander, what was your role as a commander?

CHAIRPERSON: Before he comes to that, when was he elected as a commander?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: In 1991, February.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed then, Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Madame Chair.
	My question was, what was your role as a commander?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: It was to organise my area, the people in my area so that we could defend ourselves against the IFP.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So, proceed further?  We hear here in terms of the affidavit, paragraph 5, that you went to a particular place like the IFP area and you followed Mavundla into a house.  Who was inside the house?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I was Mavundla and his wife.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You, according to the affidavit, you shot Mr Mavundla.  Do you know anything about the robbery?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Please inform the Committee what you know about the robbery?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: After Mavundla had died we robbed him of a wristwatch and a wallet.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Who took the wallet and the wristwatch?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: It was myself.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Proceed further.  You left Mavundla there and you went to another area ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, let's deal with it now, why did you take the wallet and watch and what did you do with it?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: We had a problem with ammunition.  We were going to sell the watch and use the money to buy ammunition.

MR MALAN: And the wallet?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I threw it away.

CHAIRPERSON: The money?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I pocketed the money.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you use the money for?  Your evidence is that you robbed because you wanted to - you were short of ammunition and wanted to use the proceeds thereof for purposes of buying ammunition.  Did you use the money to buy ammunition?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst we are dealing with Mr Mavundla before Mr Molohlanye proceeds to other aspect of your evidence, did you know Mr Mavundla?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I did not know Mr Mavundla.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that Mr Mavundla was an IFP person?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I saw him coming from the IFP camp.

CHAIRPERSON: By an IFP camp you mean a house that was known to be used by IFP people?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: It was a house that they used, the IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that that house was an IFP camp?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: As a commander I used to patrol the area to look for their camps and bases where they would launch attacks from.

CHAIRPERSON: So you knew the house to be used by IFP supporters or members?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MALAN: Sorry, I'm not clear on this now.  In your patrols, did you also patrol the IFP area?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I would stand from our area and from where I stood it was possible to see that IFP area.

MR MALAN: But you didn't patrol it, you could see the IFP area, could you see the house from which you took Mr Mavundla?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I could see the house from where I stood in our area.  It was clear, it was not very far, you could see the house across.

MR MALAN: Now how did you know that that house was used by the IFP?  I think as you said to launch attacks?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I used to see them coming from that area when they came to attack us, from that house.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't he staying there, wasn't it his own house where he and his wife stayed?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I did not know that that was his house or not.

ADV DE JAGER: There was a bed in that house, he was sitting on the bed when you entered?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: He was seated on the bed.

ADV DE JAGER: Who else did you ever see at that house except him and his wife?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: No, I did not see anyone else.

MR MALAN: But you haven't seen Mavundla either, before?  You did not know him?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: No, even if I used to see him but I did not know him.

MR MALAN: You heard when I read out from the judgement to your fellow applicant, Mr Ncishane, that according to the summary of facts there or the summary of facts in the judgement, Mavundla was taken from another home, not from his own home but from a friend's home.  Do you have any comment on that?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: He was removed from a house.  I removed him from that house.  I was not aware whether that was his house or not.

MR MALAN: Exactly.  Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You as a commander conducted certain surveillance one would imagine, is it not so?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be one of the primary functions of a commander in a war torn area like Malukazi, is it not so?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: The conducting of surveillance would have been one of your primary functions in a war torn area like Malukazi was during that time?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes it was important.

CHAIRPERSON: And you had conducted this surveillance and it had during your surveillance you then concluded that that particular house was used by the IFP because you saw quite a number of people coming from that particular house?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that an IFP area?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Madame Chair.
	In terms of the affidavit we have, paragraph 5, the applicants state that they met, they saw Mavundla in the company of his wife.  I'll start reading from:
"On our way we saw a person" ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: We have read that Mr Molohlanye.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your point?

MR MOLOHLANYE: My point is that the house in which they went to was not a camp where the IFP was but was just a house which they ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: His evidence is that he saw Mr Mavundla coming from an IFP camp and we have been trying to establish what he meant by a camp and he said it was a house that he thought was an IFP camp because he, from his surveillance, had seen a number of people coming from that house.