Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: Reverend, I closed my door.  These two men came and they were in a rush.  I do not know their names, Reverend, but I can still remember them even today.  The first one had a blue top on.  The second one had a maroon tracksuit on.  The one who was behind said, "This is the one."  The one who was leading put his hand on his belt.  I thought he was taking out a knife only to find out he was taking out a 9mm pistol.  When he was corking the gun.  Yes, I have been trained karate.  You must remember that.  He shot, Reverend.  While he was shooting he was already in my hands.  At the first shot I had the gun in my hand.  We were struggling with this gun.  The first shot went off.  He tried again the second time.  He was missing me all the time.  The third shot, it got me right here on this spot.  This thumb was chopped off.  After that he ran away with the gun.  Fortunately of unfortunately, Reverend, much as this one next to me, she had already called an ambulance.  At that time people like Comrade Fazi and Comrade Gcina and other Comrades as well as Mkuseli Jack and the police, it was the ambulance that came first.
I was then taken to Dora Nginza Hospital.  When I arrived there Dr Hewana treated me.  I had 45 stitches around my thumb.  This thumb only started to work last year.  
People cannot realise it when they are looking at it now.  I did not even want people to know this.  Excuse me just a little now.
The following morning I came back.  I was told that the policemen said they wanted to see me at Louis Le Grange.  I was scared now because my name was in all the policemen's mouths because I was one of the leaders of the organisation.  Matshesi and I went to Le Grange.  The first person who took me there was Mr Olifant who is right here in this hall.  He was also here on Tuesday.  He is one of the security police.  They said to me, "Apleni, stand aside."  They called my wife.  The way they called her was as if they were calling a dog.  Even the way they called me was much better than the way she was called.  They called me Sen Sai because that is a respectable way of calling a karate leader.  They asked me, "Where is the gun?  When are those people I was shooting in my own yard?"  Then they chased me.  The asked me, they interrogated me until the end of the day.  I was sweating.  Then they released me and warned me.  We went home.
The following day I received a telephone call.  I was told I must just relax at home.  The man who telephoned me was Mr Faku.  They told me to stay at home.  
On 18 July 1985, it was very early around 05h00 on a Monday morning, I just arrived at home.  I had taken my brother to Good Year.  He was working there.  I had left Mike Tofile's wife in my house and I told them that I was taking my brother to work.  When I got back I never saw so many policemen in my entire life.  If I can just cut this crowd in half I would say this is just the tip of the ice berg. I am going to tell you now everything that happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please keep quite.

WITNESS: The first person who entered was Mr Bill Dennis.  In this Centenary Hall there is no person who is as big as he was.  His more hefty than Comrade Ngoye.  He said to me, "You see Apleni, your karate is just going to melt away my boy.  The second person who entered, I can even identify them under his balaclava.  It was Mr Mosharha.  He said, "I want the key to the car.  Go and open the boot."  So I did.  Bill Dennis took a gallon of petrol.  He said, "Apleni, you are going to burn some people."  I was questioned about everything that was happening at the UDF.  I was asked where our meetings were being held etcetera.  They told me now that they were arresting me so I left with them.  My car was driven by Mr Mosharha.  I was sitting at the back with some other policemen.  We went to Louis Le Grange.  There was also Mr X whom I am not going to mention.  
They said, "We are going to castrate you today."  That is what Mr X said to me.  When we got on the 8th Floor, if I am not mistaken, we met Mr Roelofs.  He asked, "Where is Edgar Ngoyi?"  He said, "Where is Fasie?"  Because he was the only one who was here.  You must not forget, I still I those stitches on my thumb.  They beat me up in Mr Roelofs's office until I was unconscious.  Then I was taken by Faku, Olifant, Japhta who is also here, he is one of the security police in the building, McIntyre, Conway, Van Wyk, Bill Dennis and another group that I do not know which belong to the Security Branch.  I was taken to Bill Dennis's office upstairs.  When I got there they shot me a pair of shoes.  Those shoes were burnt.  It had somebody's bones in them.  They said to me, "You are going to look like that."  They said, "Just look on your right."  I turned.  He showed me somebody skull.  That was Bill Dennis.  Then I fainted.  Though they did not beat me up in this particular office I just fainted.  I got very weak.  They took me to Algoa Police Station.  They did not do anything to me there.  That is where I slept.  I slept for days on end.  I was taken to a certain police station in the rural areas which I do not know.  I was kept there for days on end.  I did not even know where I was.
On a certain morning Bill Dennis arrived, Reverend.  He fetched me.  He brought me back to Louis Le Grange.  He also interrogated me about Ngoyi because if was Ngoyi who used to kill people here in Port Elizabeth.  All those things that Bill Dennis asked me about I did not know even a single one.  Passing on, Bill Dennis took me to Rooi Hel.  That is where I was kept at Makulukhutu where you do not even find a toilet.  You will only get a bucket.  I stayed there for four months at Rooi Hel.  They did not empty this bucket for four months.  They are the ones who told me that Goniwe and the rest were dead.
On this first day when they were teargassing me in my cell, I stayed for 15 days in gas and every day I was teargassed.  I got very ill and nobody knew where I was.  Some of the inmates knew that I was there.  They were getting in contact with the UDF and my family so I asked lawyers, my lawyer was Comrade Nganulo, it was very difficult for him to come and see me and also Advocate Tshiti.  I stayed in that cell until I recovered from my wounds.  I was not charged for this whole period.  I stayed there for six months.  When I got to court I had already forgotten.  If I can just summarize, I appeared in court 20 times.
Rev

N XUNDU: When was this charge of rape, abduction and murder?