Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now when did you first become aware of the number of MK members that you had to transport from the border into the Republic to infiltrate the country?  You have already referred to several meetings that you had, both with Mr Madima and Mr Boyitanyo in Botswana, but what I want to know is, when did you first become aware of the number of MK members you had to transport?  Was it after the first meeting with Mr Boyikanyo or Mr Madima or was it after the second meeting?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: My first contact was Mr Mabena, he's the one who explained to me about this ANC gentleman who was going to come.  Mabena, he was a person whom I used to see weekly as my contact.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did he then tell you that you had to - there were six people who intended to infiltrate the country?  At the first meeting that you had with Mr Madima did you discuss the number of people that would be coming into the country?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Mabena didn't mention a number he just said people.  When Teboga Boyikanyo came he gave me the number of the people who were supposed to be coming in.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was the number given by Teboga at the first meeting you had with him?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.  On that day I met him he gave me the number of the people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did he, at that meeting, advise you that these people would be carrying some baggage?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes he did explain that they would be carrying their luggages.  That's where I realised we will need a combi.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did he explain to you the nature of the luggage they would be carrying?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: He didn't.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

ADV VISSER: May it please you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sehlwana do you feel today that you did anything wrong during this whole incident?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I do understand, it's painful to me, I've done something wrong.  It wasn't my intention, it was the work that I was supposed to do.

ADV VISSER: What precisely did you do wrong?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I will say I sold out these people.

ADV VISSER: But they were terrorists, that was your job, as you said?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes that's correct.

ADV VISSER: They were coming into the country to blow up places, perhaps to hurt people, perhaps to murder people, is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I will say it was in the Safety department for some time and some of the people we arrested, but it didn't happen the way it happened in this incident.

ADV VISSER: No, would you just answer the question.  These people were coming into the country, they were heavily armed and they were coming into the country to blow up buildings or places and perhaps to injure or kill people, isn't that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.

ADV VISSER: And you stopped them, you helped to stop them.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I wanted them to be arrested, and also to give information.

ADV VISSER: Well incidentally that's what the other applicants will also tell this Committee, and that was that the purpose of the exercise on that day was through a show of force to intimidate these people into surrendering by a show of force so that they could be arrested, do you agree that that was the purpose as far as you were aware?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I will say the situation in regard to security, I realised that we are going to kill them although they said to me they are going to arrest them and take their arms.  If they come here and say they were coming to arrest them I don't know, I don't know how to answer that but...

ADV VISSER: Well let's just go through this.  What precisely made you decide that the Security Police had no intention to arrest the six people, what precisely gave you that impression?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say the police did not have the intention to arrest the people, he said at some stage he thought the police had the intention to kill these people.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Perhaps I should just rephrase the question.  Initially was it your impression that all of you, all, what you call Security Police, were going to arrest the six people, was that your initial impression?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes that's what they told me, they said we are going to arrest them, that's what they told me.

ADV VISSER: Yes.  And did - sorry, did you want to add anything?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No, no.

ADV VISSER: And did that impression change at some point in time before the incident actually happened?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: In other words I will say when they started demonstrating where I had to stop it came to my mind that they might kill them.

ADV VISSER: Yes.  You see because you gave conflicting evidence here today, you realise that.  First you said that you then realised that they were going to kill these people, and then later you said you didn't think that they were going to kill them, now which is it, which did you decide?   Did you decide there and then that these people are going to be killed no matter what?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I have already explained that from the time they started demonstrating to me as to how I should come into a halt and jump out of the car, it's then that I realised that they were going to kill the people.

ADV VISSER: Why do you draw that inference from that exercise?  Can you tell the Committee please, why did you draw that inference, the inference that they are going to kill the people merely by the exercise of showing you how to jump out of the combi and run away at the place where the police and the SADF personnel were going to be?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I am explaining that.  When he said, during the demonstration, I should get out and run away, it showed that they were going to kill them.  From the demonstration, yes, it looks like they were going to kill them.

ADV VISSER: Don't you think that the security personnel there were concerned by your safety being among six people heavily armed with AK47s and F1 handgrenades, don't you think that they were concerned about your safety as to what would happen if they suddenly appear on the scene in an attempt to arrest them?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It's true that came to my mind that they might be trying to put me on a safer side.  I am saying that maybe they were saying that I should run out because they wanted to protect me.

ADV VISSER: Now you know Mr Sehlwana what I find surprising is why didn't you tell the Committee members this when you gave your evidence-in-chief, why didn't you tell them this?  Why tell them that your inference that you drew was that they are now going to kill these people?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I think I did mention that like they said that's during the demonstration that it came to my mind that they were going to kill these people.  I just had to get out of the car because that was the instruction given to me.

ADV VISSER: You are neatly avoiding the question, the question let me put it to you again, because you've just told us that there's another possibility and that is that the whole exercise was directed at attempts to protect you at the time when the arrest was going to be carried out, isn't that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I would say that's correct when you say they were trying to protect me.

ADV VISSER: Why didn't you tell the Committee members that in your evidence-in-chief?  Why did you hide that inference, why did you hide that fact?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you can say that Mr Visser.  You can't say he did hide the fact.  All I know we don't have to be told that if somebody is told to get out of the car and run away, I don't think we need to be told that the idea is that he must not be hurt.  I am sure we know that.  He didn't have to tell us.