Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, just to latch on to what the Chairman has asked, just jumping about a bit, you then obtained firearms, AK47s from the house where these had been left by these 4 people previously, according to your evidence.  Is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No that is not correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Are you not suggesting that the firearms that were planted were recovered from the house that had been kept under observation?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, W/O Wasserman, we sent him to fetch it.  He did indeed hand it over to me at the scene at a later stage.

MR WEBSTER: The question is...

CHAIRPERSON: What's the question?

MR WEBSTER: The AK47s which you planted on the victims, were they not the AK47s allegedly collected from the house that had been kept under observation by two members of the Police Force?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said that.

MR WEBSTER: They were.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: Okay and would then in all probability have been weapons used by whoever might have fired on Sabelo according to your information, Mrs Sabelo?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct, the group.

MR WEBSTER: Was there any ballistic test carried out to ensure whether those AKs in fact had been used in the attack on Mrs Sabelo?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I myself did not know because it was not investigated by me but as far as I know it was done by W/O Gouws so I would assume that it is a possibility that it was indeed done.

CHAIRPERSON: Did W/O Gouws investigate the murder of Mrs Sabelo?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No, I don't believe so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what the question is about, isn't it?  We're talking about the murder of Mrs Sabelo and if there was any evidence that these firearms, or any one of them were used in the killing of Mrs Sabelo.  Was there any connection?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I don't know.  I don't know who was the investigative official at that stage.

MR WEBSTER: And you never cared to find out, did you?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, during 1986 the onslaught was of such a nature in Natal that we did not have much time, or I did not have much time to pay, to participate in secondary things, in other words it was more aimed at things which happened at the moment and there were investigating officials who had to follow up investigations whether it be Detective Branch, Murder and Robbery, it was the task of other people, it was not my task.

MR WEBSTER: I'm going to suggest Mr Botha that you ought to have had a special interest in this case.  A special interest in those AK 47s because apart from the unsubstantiated report by an informer, you had killed 4 unarmed people, you had planted evidence on them and you ought to have had an interest to ensure that at least you had covered your back, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I did indeed plant the weapons which came from the house, but I did not conduct any further investigations.  As I said we were busy.  86, 87 were very difficult years.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the suggestion really is this, that on the strength of the informer who said that Mrs Sabelo died at the hands of one or other of these people, that you decided to kill 4 of them who were unarmed.  That all on the strength of what an informer told you, that one or other of these people were responsible for killing Mrs Sabelo, is that what happened?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, yes, information indicated that these persons had murdered Mrs Sabelo, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: You know, Mr Botha, "totale aanslag" that you keep talking about, I have some difficulty, please help me, I have some difficulty in understanding how 4 people in a motor vehicle on the basis of unconfirmed report by an informer who you have seen nor spoken to, places you or makes you think of the total onslaught.  Can you help me?
There's 4 people in a vehicle, there's a total onslaught because of 4 people in those circumstances I've described, can you help me?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, may I possibly, I have possibly not expressed myself properly.  The first information which was received about Brian Mamela and his group was that they were responsible for the attack of Winnington Sabelo's wife and daughters. These people threw the hand-grenades there and then shot afterwards with AK47 rifles.  That was the initial information.  Further information which came to our attention was not generated by myself, but by Col van Sittert.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the information that was supplied by the informer about the death of Mrs Sabelo, was that something that was told to you?  Were you personally informed by the informer?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson, that was an informer who reported to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you how Mrs Sabelo was killed?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, no, but at that stage I already knew how she had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: And did your informer know who did the killing?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, he told me that Brian Mamela and his group were responsible for the killing of that woman and the injuries to her children.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before this incident, this Quarry Road incident, was the killing of Mrs Sabelo?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was about or approximately the 20th or the 22nd of August, the previous month, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask, was Mamela known to you at that stage otherwise as an activist?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I, after I had received the initial information that they were responsible for the death of Mrs Winnington, or the spouse of Winnington Sabelo and I discussed it with Col Taylor, who was the Chief of the Terrorist Unit and Col Taylor explained to me that this man was a trained MK terrorist and at that stage he was active in the vicinity and he asked me to task my informer further to try and find out where this group was in hiding.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR WEBSTER: You are therefore unable to assist me how you could have formulated this idea of a total onslaught?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, the witness was answering that question and he's just gone on to wanting to refer you to what van Sittert told him and what happened thereafter, when questions were put to him.  He hasn't finished that explanation, Mr Chairman, perhaps he might be allowed to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.  It was Taylor who told you that this man was a trained terrorist.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that he should be kept under observation.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: We had tried to determine where the man was hiding with his group.

MR WEBSTER: Have you finished Mr Botha?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR WEBSTER: Is that your answer?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, excuse me, I'm somewhat confused.  May you please repeat the question Mr Webster?

MR WEBSTER: Counsel has just helped you.  Let's pass that.  Let's pass that, there are more important things to discuss, Mr Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on, Mr Webster.

MR WEBSTER: September 1986, there was a state of emergency, you remember?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: And it was one of the most draconian state of emergencies that this country had ever witnessed in it's entire history.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it depends from which light you regard it.

MR WEBSTER: Is your answer yes, or no?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No, I cannot agree with you.

MR WEBSTER: Okay.  I'm going to suggest to you Mr Botha that by September, October onwards the spate of bombing had diminished considerably is it not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson I don't have the statistics before me at the moment, but if statistics could be supplied to me, I would be able to answer that, Chairperson.