Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR LAX: Yes.  And then just one last thing that has puzzled me as I've been listening to all this evidence and I'm asking it of you, because you were the Commander.  Nowhere in any of these applications or statements is reference made to the object of this whole series of operations being to debrief anybody.  It's something that's emerged in the course of the testimony of these people, but if you read these applications carefully, and I have, I assure you, nowhere is that a stated object of the operation.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Are you talking about the statements made for the applications?

MR LAX: Either the applications themselves, or their supplementary statements, nowhere is the stated object - you see you say there were two objects of this operation.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Can I use the term operation in the sense that it was one global operation?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I understand, Chairperson, yes.

MR LAX: Nowhere does it say the object was to debrief anybody.  And that would for you have been much more important.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That was one of the objects, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you can't explain why it doesn't appear anywhere here?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I can't explain it.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Robertshaw, you said you were involved only with the occasion when Tax as well as Betty were fetched from Lesotho.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: What was the reason, why were you not involved in the other instances when the other people were fetched, like KK and Nomasonto?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: There is no specific reason, Chairperson, I was acting as the Branch Commander, I had a lot of other duties to perform.  I can't give any specific reason why I wasn't there.

MR SIBANYONI: It would appear because Tax was a highly trained person and Betty was the Commander, it would appear you were involved because you would say in this instance we are going to catch a big fish as the Commander of the branch.  That may be the reason why you wanted to be personally there.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Is that with Betty Boom?  Is that referring to Betty Boom?

MR SIBANYONI: Betty Boom being a Commander and Tax being a person who is highly trained.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, that is not so, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm a little bit puzzled about the fact that after these people are brought to the farm, it would appear you show less interest in their debriefing and as well as after they've been debriefed and taken back to Lesotho, there is no interest being shown on your part.  What is your comment?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, it's not so that there was no interest being shown on my part, I had capable people to do the required work.  It wasn't for me to debrief these people or to get involved in anything concerning them, further than what I did.

MR SIBANYONI: But as a Commander one would expect you to ensure that the plan is a success, that these people are converted into informers.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: But on the contrary, it seems as soon as they are on the farm you show no interest.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It's not a question of saying no interest, Chairperson, I deemed W/O Jagga and Jantjie to be completely capable of doing the work required from them.  I wasn't going to sit and interfere with their work, I had other work to do anyway.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm going to put to you what I put to Mr Thulo, that being the fact that when one reads the statement of Tsietsi Mokhele, one gets the impression that Tsietsi is saying he was in exile and if these people were called to Lusaka, he would have found the information because he also did some search, and he makes an assumption that these people were killed by the police.  What is your response to that?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I doubt very much whether they were killed by the police.  I have no knowledge of them being killed by the police.

MR SIBANYONI: You strongly believe that they were recalled or summonsed to Lusaka?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is what I believe.

MR SIBANYONI: You are also aware that those people who were sort of suspected of being spies, were detained, some of them in camps and the ANC has submitted the names of those people who were suspected spies and some actions taken against them.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I know that these people were detained in certain camps, amongst others being Quatro Camp.  I don't know if there's a full record of the people that were detained there and what happened to them.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Sibanyoni is actually getting to is that we have over other hearings, a list of people who died in exile and what the ANC has done is they gave us country by country the people who died.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, in exile.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, yes.

MR SIBANYONI: And the names of these four do not appear in any of the lists.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, that can be quite possible, I don't if they were listed or if they were not listed, but I know that a lot of these operatives had more than one name, they had more than one passport, they had more than one identity document.  So if they're listed under the name of Betty Boom or Tax Sejanamane, I wouldn't know.  They could have been listed under another identity document number or passport number or name or whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know her real name, Betty Boom?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I just knew her as Betty Boom, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The name of Joyce?  Have you come across that in ...(intervention)

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I think that was one of the names, that's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Sibanyoni.

MR SIBANYONI: Who was the owner of this farm in Ladybrand, where the debriefing took place?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't know, Chairperson, that was arranged by Toon Jagga.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it on a temporary basis or don't you have information?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That was on a temporary basis, the farmer wanted somebody to look after the house for him while it was unoccupied.

MR SIBANYONI: Lastly, Sietsi Mokhele says when he was detained by the South African Police he was, if I remember his statement well, he was kept in Ladybrand and then at one stage he was threatened with death, he was taken to a river.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't know anything about that, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.  I just want to comment and I've asked this consistently with your co-applicants, what Buthelezi says in his statement in these papers.  It's starts from page 53, I think to page 55.  The tenor of this statement suggests that around September in 1987, KK, Mbulelo Ngono left Lesotho and only returned a year later, not a year later, the following year.  And what it suggests is that if that should be so, then it means he was never abducted as your co-applicants suggest and yourself.  What is your comment?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I think this person is possibly confused with some of these dates, perhaps he was missing for a year or had gone away for a year, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, it could be just a few months, about six months.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: About six months?