Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

MR PATEL: Were you prosecuted for any of the offences in respect of which you claim amnesty?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I was prosecuted yes, for some of the offences.

MR PATEL: All right, let's start at the beginning.  Were you prosecuted for the murder of Obed Nhlabathi?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No.  I was not even charged for that one.

MR PATEL: Were you prosecuted for the murder of Mr Bhe Malinga?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, I was not charged for that one as well.

MR PATEL: Were you prosecuted for the attempted murder of the unknown South African Police members?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, I went to trial for that one.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened in the trial?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The case came to an end, I was not charged or I was not sentenced.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you acquitted or what?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, I can say I was acquitted because that was the one offence that made it difficult for me to be granted a bail.

MR PATEL: Did anybody give evidence, did anybody talk at the trial?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The Police were making it difficult for us to be granted bail, because we were kept in the cell from the 11th of November 1993 so that there came the Regional from Pretoria and it discovered that there was not enough evidence to sentence us and we were therefore acquitted.

CHAIRPERSON: You appeared in court and you went on trial and you were found not guilty?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Does the same apply to the last offence for which you claim amnesty, namely the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.

MR PATEL: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: I have no questions, thank you.

MR KEMP: .

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: I don't have any questions, but I have a problem with something.  I don't know if the application form is correct, but on page 138 the person received 28 years.  Is that Mr Lukhele?  This bothers me because the application forms are vague?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in prison at the moment?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been serving any prison sentence?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you scheduled to serve any prison sentence?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem that paragraph was filled in wrong.

MS VAN DER WALT: It would seem so, thank you.  I have no further questions.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got questions?

MR HATTINGH: Yes, I do have, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on, I want to find out something.  Mr Black, what is your position now?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, as far as the issue relating to which I have been taken by surprise, Mr Malinga is concerned, I will need to take further instructions from Mr Khaba on that issue and there are other questions which I would put, so I would respectfully submit that if I could deal with it all after Mr Hattingh's matter and then put it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh may surprise us and ask two questions, then what?

MR BLACK: Then I would request an opportunity to take further instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Mr Hattingh, the floor is yours.

MR HATTINGH: Are we proceeding?  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Lukhele, you indicated and you gave names of the people who were part of your SDU.  If you could just repeat the names for me, I would appreciate it.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Bongani Khaba, Livingstone Lukhele.

MR HATTINGH: That is yourself?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes.  Gita Mnisi.

MR HATTINGH: Gita Mnisi?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes.  Charlie, Basil Dhlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Does Charlie have a surname?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: That is his nickname, I think he is David Majola.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he an applicant?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the Majola that is going to come and testify still as Charlie?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: You mentioned four people now, are there any others?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No.  The ones that were close to me are the ones that I still remember.

MR HATTINGH: You also mentioned a Pelele previously?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is Pelele Lawrence Shongwe.  He is also one of the applicants for amnesty.

MR HATTINGH: From this group that you mentioned, the group of five it is Khaba who is an applicant, Majola who is an applicant and Shongwe who is an applicant.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, this includes Gita Mnisi.

MR HATTINGH: And Gita Mnisi?  Just to confirm, I understood your evidence to be that there was no direct instruction for the killing of Obed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: If you are talking about a direct order, yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: That there was no direct order from any ANC command that Obed was to be killed, is that correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I would like to explain that when there were members of the SDU who were instructed to protect and this we did under fighting circumstances.
	This instruction therefore implies that killing is possible and where possible, win over people to the ANC so that they do not become problems.  Therefore the instructions were not strictly that we should go out there and kill, we had to look at the situation.  If the situation warranted, therefore we would intervene.

MR HATTINGH: As far as the second incident is concerned, that is the one of Bhe Malinga, I understood your evidence to be that he was killed because he was an IFP member or Inkatha member, is that correct?

MR PATEL: Objection Mr Chairman, the evidence is that Bhe Malinga was a Policeman.  In any event, as I understand Mr Hattingh, he doesn't have any clients who represent Bhe Malinga.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, the purpose of this cross-examination is to try to find out on what kind of motive did they rely when they killed someone, whether it was purely on the basis of his connection to being an Inkatha member, being a Policemen or whether there were in fact further reason required before they would go ahead and kill someone.

CHAIRPERSON: He has answered your questions of that nature in respect of Obed, isn't it?
	Are you representing the family of Malinga as well or not?

MR HATTINGH: No, I don't.  Only with regard to Obed's family.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis would then be able to ask questions in respect of Malinga when you have already got the answer to similar questions in respect to Obed?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, as I have already indicated, I am trying to test the motives of this applicant, whether he in fact acted at the time with a political motive, and I think it would be, my submission would be for him not to make full disclosure with regard to other incidents where he together with the same people, committed the same kind of crime in the same period, that that would be somewhat artificial.

CHAIRPERSON: You know Mr Hattingh, we are going to go through the same thing again.   When you appear on behalf of interested parties, then you deal with their interest only.  If there is nobody who is interested in the Malinga issue, that is that.  I mean it is tough luck, there is nothing we can do about that.
	But to go on an investigation of that sort, does create problems for the other side.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I will retract that question, I will put it differently.  Mr Lukhele, from your evidence it would appear and you can assist me if I am wrong, that at times your decision to kill someone, was based on the fact that he belonged to Inkatha, is that correct?