Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Shangase, do you know Mr Mbaso, Mr Mbaso was one of the people that were killed, because according to the Investigator's report ...

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I did not know him when he was still alive.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I beg your pardon, was Mr Mbaso, was he residing in the area that you were residing in, where the people were not affiliated to any political party?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: No, he came from the Macadeni area and he encountered these men sitting under the tree, and he decided to rest, sit with them, and unfortunately he happened to be killed on that day.  He came from the Macadeni district.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sorry, what is the name of the district, I beg your pardon?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: Macadeni.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The Macadeni district, was that a district which was predominantly ANC controlled?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I do not really have knowledge with regards to that because that area is a bit of a distance from us.
	I do not know how the situation is there.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Would it perhaps surprise you to learn that in fact the daughters of Mbaso claim that he was killed because he was an ANC member?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: I would not deny that if that is what his family members claim.    With regards to where he was killed, he had just rested there on his way.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAHARAJ

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

MS THABETE: Just two Mr Chairman.  Mr Shangase, would I be correct if I say your area is a very small area, your community?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: It is small, it is divided into three wards only.

MS THABETE: Would I be correct as well to say before any decision is made in your community, you first report to the Chief and there is a discussion amongst the community before a decision is made?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: That is correct.  We don't take any decisions without the induna or the Nkosi.  We have to report to the Nkosi or induna if there is an emergency, then we report to the induna.
	If he gives us authority, then we proceed with whatever we want to do.  If not, then we wait for the Nkosi.

MS THABETE: Would it be correct to say you didn't make decisions, but you as a community together, you together with others, after the Chief had been reported, it is only then that you make decisions?

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Shangase, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down and go back to your seat, thank you.

KONAKWAKHE ELLIOT SHANGASE: Thank you.  Please ensure that they do not kill me when I leave this area please.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, I won't waste the Committee's time, but I would like to call my last witness.  I will try to be as brief as possible.
	I call on Mr Musawenkosi Cele to come to the stand please.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the names, if you could spell them please?

MS THABETE: He is one of the victims who was - Musawenkosi.

MR LAX: Can you hear us Mr Cele?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: Yes.

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Mr Cele, on the 3rd of February 1993, you were seated at Mthetwa's house, is that correct?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: Yes, we were.

MS THABETE: Is it also correct that you were attacked whilst you were sitting there?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: That is correct.  We were attacked.

MS THABETE: Can you briefly tell the Committee members what happened?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: They arrived and some of them shook my hand and then the others started stabbing me at the back.  One used a (indistinct) to stab me at the back and one other stabbed me on my chest.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, if I could just get - you say it was at Mthetwa's place, approximately how many men were at Mthetwa's place just immediately prior to the attack taking place?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: Two arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the attack?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: We were about ten.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what is your age?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: I am 28.

MS THABETE: The ten people who were sitting there, was it old people, was it young people?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: There were old and young people.  I was the young one and the others were elderly.

MS THABETE: When you say they came to where you were sitting, who is they, do you know them?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: Yes, I know the people who attacked us.  They are the people who are actually present here today, seeking amnesty.  Some of them were not arrested and their whereabouts are not known.

MS THABETE: Were you called aside by the people who came to attack you?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: No, they just came to me and stood next to me and started attacking me.
	When the first two shook my hand ...

MS THABETE: Slow down, so you are saying they didn't call you aside, they didn't speak to you, they just came and they attacked you?

MR LAX: No, that is not what they are saying.

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: They came to me, they shook my hand and then they started attacking me.

MS THABETE: Mr Cele, can you try and speak up because I am listening to you directly.  Just try and speak up.

MR LAX: Maybe you can put the headphones on and put it on the other channel if you want to listen to the Zulu.

MS THABETE: I get interrupted because it is translated into English as well, at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: You can just do what you want to.

MS THABETE: Mr Zulu, was he wearing an IFP T-shirt, do you remember?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: He had on a navy T-shirt which had white stripes.  It looked like a soccer vest, he was not wearing a T-shirt.

MS THABETE: Were there any shots that were fired?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: He was just wearing a navy T-shirt with white stripes.  He is lying when he says he was wearing an IFP or an ANC T-shirt.

MS THABETE: Can you answer my next question.

MR LAX: I don't know if he heard it.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your question Ms Thabete.

MR LAX: You said to him did he hear any shots being fired?

MS THABETE: Can you answer?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: I was attacked and then I fled and I heard gunshots when I had already fled.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Cele.  No further questions from me.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Mr Maharaj, do you have any cross-examination?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you.  Mr Cele, on that, can you tell the Committee at approximately what time did this attack take place?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: I think it was about two o'clock in the afternoon.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: How many persons had formed this gang that attacked you?

MUSAWENKOSI CELE: They were four.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Certainly not nine or ten?

MR LAX: Sorry, it has never been suggested that they were nine people that attacked them on that afternoon.
	The issue about the nine deals with events prior to this particular incident.  No one has ever suggested Mr Maharaj, that at this attack there was anyone else besides the four people that the applicant has named.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I beg your pardon, to my recollection, it would seem as if it was put to the applicant that in fact nine, he was part of nine people that had actually attacked the people that were seated at Mthetwa's house.

MR LAX: No, he said he was a gang of nine people that called themselves Sinamandla and it was in that context that the nine was mentioned.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: My apologies, I withdraw that question.
	Mr Cele, can  you indicate to the Court the four people that were killed, can you indicate to the Committee approximately what were the ages of these people?