Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   Yes.  It was Makatha Zondi, the one that I very well remember, and I saw him getting off the ambulance.

MR SINGH:  Now, just one last question from me.  You've mentioned Sikizi - Sikizi Zondi you called him, but his name is actually Sikizi Zuma, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  He was the leader from Harewood at that time.

WITNESS:  That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Who was the leader from the other area you spoke of, Umphumuza?

WITNESS:   The leader who was coming from Umphumuza - the only person I knew very well, who was also one of those associated with Inkatha, I think he was Philip Zondi.  He also was one of those who were committing atrocities in the community.  You see, at Umphumuza there's a place that differentiates the two places, Umphumuza and Xaluza, and Philip Zondi was coming from that area.

MR SINGH:  One or two questions I have for you, Sir.  This Sikizi Zuma, where is he?

WITNESS:   He is around.  He is around.

MR SINGH:  Do you ever get to meet or probably talk and so?

WITNESS:   Yes, we do meet with him, but we are not so much close.  At the same time we do talk, and he is also repentant from what he used to be, although there are questions from people who were affected by these things.  They have a problem with him.

MR SINGH:  One other question I have for you, Sir.  There's one statement you made mention of that people even laughed at.  I would like for you to repeat it so that I know what it says.  You've mentioned two places here, and you said those places were said that they will plant sugar cane from those places.  What do you mean by that?

WITNESS:   What I understood from that was that ... (incomplete - end of Side B, Tape 3) ... respected told the kids to run away, he will remain.

MR SINGH:  Where is his family now?

WITNESS:   His family is around still, although they are not at that place because the house was burnt.  I don't know where they are, but I know for sure I do meet them from time to time.

MR SINGH:  Would you encourage them to come forward to the Truth Commission as well?

WITNESS:   Yes, that I can do.

MR SINGH: We'll appreciate if those can come forward because  they were highly affected by this gross human rights violation.  We will appreciate for them to come forward and tell us how the whole thing took place.  Thanks.

MR SINGH:  You are talking about a very strange situation where people as young as yourself - I think you were about 24 at that time - you were 24 years old?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR SINGH:  That you found yourself protecting the communities, when the communities and the police should have been protecting people like yourself and others younger than yourself.  Won't you elaborate that people like you, your age then, what happened to them and where are they now, and according to you, probably from your opinion, how those people will be of assistance today?

WITNESS:   They are around.  It's difficult for me to say how they can be of help, because even that very day it's not like we were protecting the community.  It was also difficult for us how we could even protect ourselves.  I can't say and claim here today that we protected the community.  I believe that God protected us all.  Yes, it was a way of fighting them back, probably throwing them with stones, but that was not so much effective.

MR SINGH:  But what would you say, according to you as a youth, where are others, the youth that can be helpful today?

WITNESS:   From my side I think it will be difficult for those people to be helped, because when you look into the details of the whole thing those people have lost so much.  They have lost even their future, and even mentally some of them were affected, and you can tell that those people have no future at all after losing their homes, possessions and parents.  Today they try this and the

MR SINGH: /other

MR SINGH: other to make a living.

MR SINGH:  So you don't think there's a way that they also can be helped?

WITNESS:   It's difficult for me to suggest even one way how they can be helped, although I think of one thing that may be satisfactory to them is that maybe something should be done to make those people get back to their places, because there are people who left their places who are destitute today and do want to go back to their places, but there's a question standing that if they go back to those places is there any safety for them, because even today most of them are destitute?  Some of those people had so much possession, but today they have nothing.

MR SINGH: Thank you, Thulani.

MR DLAMINI: Thulani, according to your statement, the one that we have here, you've noted about Mr Mhlongo and Mr Philip Zondi, that you would like for the a TRC to investigate about their involvement and their role during the Seven Day War.  Why would you pick up on these very two?

WITNESS:   The reason why I pick on these two it's because their role - I don't even know how to explain their role.  Maybe I will say they were the major perpetrators, the major people who were after the attacking of the flats.

MR DLAMINI:  Where are they?

WITNESS:   They are around, they are alive.

MR DLAMINI: The reason why I am asking, Thulani, is that when Mr Mgojo asked if you do meet with the other policemen you said yes, you do meet with him.  Now, I want to know about Mhlongo and Zondi, that do you envisage going back with  them, or probably getting back in good terms with them

MR DLAMINI: like you said about the other policeman, that you do see him and talk to him?

WITNESS:   No, what I would like to be investigated the most about them is that they are around in the community today, but the things that they did, transpired and emanated out of those things, are things that led us or the community to question their integrity.

MR DLAMINI:  Is it possible that we can get the addresses of those people?

WITNESS:   I don't have, but maybe I can ask other people.

MR DLAMINI: We will appreciate if you could try your best to get those addresses before we leave Pietermaritzburg.

MR DLAMINI:  Mr Mbanjwa, do you know Mr Mhlongo's full name?

WITNESS:   No, I don't know his full name, no.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you very much.  We know that the Xaluza/Sweetwaters area where you are from was one of the worst hit areas early on in the Seven Day War, and, as you say, it is an area which is still affected by the events of that time.  We have taken statements from many, many people like yourself, and we have selected a small number to give evidence at this hearing, but many of those witnesses say that the only time they ever saw the SAP, members of the police, taking any action of any kind was when they attacked and shot at residents who were coming together to defend their homes.  And there is also ample evidence in these statements that the police sat by, these same police sat by and watched huge groups of armed men attack and burn houses after the residents had fled.  And this is a story which we have heard very often in this  province, right from Empangeni down to Port Shepstone, and it is important that these are not just general

MR DLAMINI: allegations which are made about the police, but it's very important that we have on record specific evidence from people like yourself.  So we want to thank you for having the courage to come here and tell us those stories today.  Thank you very much indeed for coming in.