Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-02

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That was not all, the people who harassed, or who were harassing us in some way, that if one would be seen during the times while the people were still staying at Penduka and people would be seen at the meetings or in taverns.  He had Zulu friends and other comrades turned against him because they could see that this person had another agenda that was different from ours.  That's when the people started to distance themselves from him.  We heard that from other comrades that they could no longer trust him because of his movement.

MR SIBANYONI: At which section was this tavern situated?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: It was at Penduka section.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it frequented both by IFP people as well as people who were not IFP?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: The tavern was frequented by us, but because of the situation that was, it became apparent to us that it was not safe for us to go there, so we decided to stay away from that tavern.

MR SIBANYONI: At that stage when you went to fetch him nobody but only IFP members frequented that tavern?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I thought you were asking me about the tavern that was in Penduka section.  The tavern where, the tavern where he was fetched, it is far away from this tavern that is in Penduka.  This other tavern he was first at Vergenoeg but the other one was at Penduka section.  I'm not sure if you understand.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You were commander of the area?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: What area?

CHAIRPERSON: Slovo section and the Tokoza Garden section.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I was a soldier at Slovo section, at Tokoza Gardens I was a commander.  I was a commander in Tokoza Gardens.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where this murder of Jabulane took place, was that an area in which you would have been a commander?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Behind the stadium, I'm not sure whether the stadium falls under Vergenoeg or Tokoza Gardens.  But Tokoza Gardens is on the other side.

CHAIRPERSON: In any case you assumed the commander's position when you were the one that gave orders for him to be shot.  Whether you were entitled to do so or not, you did so.  Not so?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Will you please repeat your question, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether you were entitled by your status as a commander or not, in that area, you did in fact give the order for him to be shot.  Not so?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you assumed at the very least the position or the rank of the commander in those circumstances when he was shot.  Correct?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I was a former Self-Defence Unit from Tokoza Gardens.

CHAIRPERSON: Look I don't know if we're misunderstanding each other or not.  On what basis were you entitled to give the command for him to be shot?  Ordinary soldiers don't do that, or they can't do that.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I was a commander in Tokoza Gardens.  I was working for Penduka, Penduka section, because there was no need to leave the firearms at Tokoza Gardens whereas the battlefield was Penduka section.
Can I go on?
	As I was in Tokoza Gardens I was also a subordinate at Tambo Slovo section, as a person who was coming from Penduka section.  But I would use the firearms from Tokoza Gardens at Tambo Slovo section.

CHAIRPERSON: Well answer this simple question for me.  Were you entitled to give the order for ...(intervention)

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dube to be killed?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes because I was also instructed so I had to issue an instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did no in your capacity as a commander.  Do I understand you correctly?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he would not have been shot without your order to do so?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: He was going to be killed anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then, there you first had to order it before it was done.  Correct?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we've had a witness here, previous applicant, Victor Mabaso, do you know him? - Muchacho.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, I know him.

CHAIRPERSON: And he testified to us here this morning that you know, it was almost policy to find out and make sure, especially about the position of those that were intended to be killed.  Did you hear him say so?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore there were sort of enquiries held before decisions to kill were taken.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I just want to ask wasn't Jabulane asked whether he was a member of Inkatha or not, before he was killed?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: The reason for that I do not know, but I was given an instruction to kill him, whether he was asked or not, but the instruction was issued.

CHAIRPERSON: At that meeting?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before he died was that meeting, or did that meeting take place?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That, he was killed on the night of the meeting.  I cannot remember the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the meeting on the same day?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you were in the tavern, when you lured him out, why didn't you ask him then, Mr Dube, are you a member of Inkatha?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Some of us were so impatient, we did not have time to ask questions.  We would act according to instruction and we would ask afterward, we would ask questions after the action.

CHAIRPERSON: But in your case you were commander.  Not so?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were sent in there to lure him out of the tavern.  Would you not have been able to, had you asked him and he said no, would you not have been able to go to your superiors and say, look but we made a mistake, this man is not an IFP member?  Can't we discuss the matter again?  He's willing to come to us.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: There was no time for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: As I have explained initially, during those times we did not have time to question.  One would be lucky to be questioned, to get that opportunity.  Because some people wouldn't be questioned.  He was so unfortunate that no questions were asked.

CHAIRPERSON: And that decision to kill him was taken without him being present?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: The decision was taken after he had left the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: And was he asked whether he was a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party, at that meeting?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: No, he was not asked.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he spoken to?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: The other boys with him who wanted to bring him closer during his case.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he given an opportunity to confirm or deny his membership of Inkatha Freedom Party?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: They were still busy with the others inside the office.  They were coming in one by one.  He was also in the list after the others.

CHAIRPERSON: So why was he then killed without being given an opportunity to say what his position was?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Maybe the commander who issued that instruction would be in a better position to respond to that question, but he is no more.  I do not have any answer to that question.

CHAIRPERSON: You were there.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you carried out that instruction through another instruction.  Not so?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: There was a lot of us in that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: You have indicated that you are seeking forgiveness from the members of the deceased's family.  Do you recall that?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you made any attempt to visit them in order to talk to them and make peace with them?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: No, but I am, I was willing just before this hearing, I was willing to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you make an attempt to visit them?