Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-13

<UNKNOWN>: Well, let me kick off and then either Nikki or Bobby might like to add to this.
 I entirely agree with your analysis of the situation.  As you say what do we do now?  I think this is one of those problems that has to be attacked on a whole number of fronts.
 We've already mentioned how there are a large number of Black who are share holders in our group and in other groups through pension, provident funds and unit trusts and so forth.
 We touched onto the employee share ownership scheme that we implemented in our group where for a period of five years, we gave a number free shares to all the employees right through the group.  
 Bobby mentioned a figure of a 100 000 that was the gold mining division.  It was mere a 200 000 when you added everybody in together.  We've also felt that another front in which to attack was this outsourcing of purchasing operations, the stores and suppliers and touching examples like chefs hats and gun boots and so forth for the mine..
 To try and outsource these from as many small and emerging businesses which in the (indistinct) of things are mostly a Black (indistinct) throughout the group.
 We have a programme in place throughout the group.  Each company is really required to account for itself as to what progress its going to make - making on those lines.
 We also have a section that small and medium enterprises initiatives is what it's called nowadays and in our group this lends money to and encourages sometimes those companies that are dying from and sometimes others.
 To continue the approach we felt that it was sensible and had to make available the Johnnic to largely Black investors.  We've sold our shares there or rather we sold 35 percent of them to the other group led by Cyril Ramaphosa which now runs that as a Johnnic group.
 And similarly with the JSE, the mining side, the Johnnic being the industrial side, we sold 30 percent which is what they wanted rather than the 35 to a group led by Enzic Khumalo.
 Now, then my colleagues may remember other ways in which we're working or other ways that others may be working on, but I think this is multi-facetted approach;  that again the more the economy grows, the easier this will be and the faster you will get to a more sensible and equitable distribution of ownership and earnings in the economy.

MR NIKKI OPPENHEIMER: Chair, if I could just add one thing that's not really to do with ownership, but I think in your question it has  - it impinges upon that and that is the management structure within the major companies within South Africa and for us here talking for Anglo American Corporation, the management structure within Anglo.
 If you look at the management structure today, it's quite clear that there are completely inadequate numbers of Blacks and women as Bobby has commented on. 
 This is something that we will have to quite clearly address in the future, because the management structure in order to take advantage of the talents available in the country, must come to reflect the country.
 We obviously has set in our submission, have been doing - making several initiatives on the educational front to speed this process up, but we will be judged in time when people come to look at Anglo, which we very much hope will continue to be the largest and most successful company in South Africa.
 The country will come to judge us by looking at the management structure that we have in place and we don't think we will fail that test when the time comes.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you.

MS MKHIZE: I hear you mentioning that you have Walter Sisulu, I suppose the one who is leader of the ANC as one of your - of the chairpersons of your companies.
 I just wanted to know whether in the past you ever had that kind of a directly relationship with the Nationalist Party, either by way of financing them or having them sitting in in some of your policy decision forums?

MR GODSELL: Sorry, I just don't know - I think this is - I may have mislead you in which case absolutely unintentionally.  What I was talking about is the Vaal Reefs Disaster Trust.  This was a trust created to look after, to address the needs of a 104 families killed in a single accident at Vaal Reefs.
 A fund set up jointly by NUM and Anglo American Corporation with trustees contributed from each side.
 Now, I will make it very clear, it was thought at that time that we should have two chairpersons and NUM's nominee was Walter Sisulu and our nominee was Helen Suzman, but the capacity in which they served is running a sort of 14 million rand trust to making sure it does what it was meant to do in terms of addressing the needs of widows and dependents of a large mine accident.
 We haven't had Walter Sisulu serving on a board of Anglo American.  That might be interesting from both sides of the equation.

MS MKHIZE: Yes, but sorry, you - just the second part of the question will still hold.  Did you ever had a direct relationship with the previous Government in whatever form?

<UNKNOWN>: I think as I've said in my submission, our opening remarks that I read out, that our impression was and I think Nikki touched on this too, that the - we were hated by the Nationalist Party Government for opposing them publicly and privately in speeches and in actions and we certainly had no Nationalist Party senior members in any of our boards or on any of our councils.
 What I can't say is how many Nationalist Party supporters were down stream employees in our group, because that was not a requirement to say whether you supported the Progressive Party although some people thought it was, or the Nationalist Party, in order to get on in our group.

MR GODSELL: Mr Chairman, I wonder if you'll permit me just.  This is one piece of history that is relevant, but also interesting.
 In the 13 years that John Vorster was the Prime Minister of South Africa and Harry Oppenheimer the Chairman of Anglo American Corporation, those two individuals never met, didn't talk on the telephone, had one piece of correspondence, initiated by John Vorster and the purpose of the correspondence was actually to seek the permission of the Koffiefontein mine to exhume bodies of Ossewa Brandwag members who had died in detention camps during the second world war.
 So that - and this is from a first hand source, from Harry Oppenheimer.  It is an indication, there wouldn't be too many countries in the world where the head of the largest business and the head of State over a sustained period, that is 13 years, didn't actually have contact.
 It was yet another of the abnormalities of our society.

MR NIKKI OPPENHEIMER: I might just add to that the contrast with the present situation, is absolutely dramatic and it's one of the most exciting things for those of us in Anglo in the new South Africa, this interaction that is taking place between us for the first time in our history and the Government today.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine?