Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

COL VENTER: It was our custom upon arrival to reportto our commanding officer, not in full detail on all the minorthings.  I gave him an oral report.  It wasn't always in writtenform and I told him that everything had proceeded according toplan.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you tell him that you and your askaris
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had been responsible for removing three people from the airportwho had later been liquidated, who you believed had later beenliquidated?

COL VENTER: Chairperson I believe that I told him thatmyself and askaris were responsible for the removal of the peoplefrom the airport.  I can't remember whether I ever told him thatit was my view that they had been eliminated.  Maybe he can assistin this respect, but I think I reported to him that the peoplehad been arrested and removed.

JUDGE WILSON: Surely it was of vital importance thathe should know, that he could take steps to make sure that youraskaris didn't talk about it, let the cat out of the bag, youhad been concerned, indirectly, in three murders, and you didn'tthink to tell your commanding officer.  You may not have you say?

COL VENTER: (The Interpreters are struggling to hearthe witness).  I don't know whether I actually gave him my opinionon the matter, but it is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

UNKNOWN: Please Mr Chairman. I have been burning my seat because of the questions I want toask.  Colonel, there is something which is not very clear to usand it's obvious that everybody in this hall is misunderstandingthe position, for how long were you in Port Elizabeth?

COL VENTER: I can't remember exactly, it could have beenbetween 14 and 18 days.

UNKNOWN: And this incident in the planning beforehand,was this ever discussed with you before you went to Port Elizabeth?

COL VENTER: No, never.
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UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: Was your objective when you went to PortElizabeth to perform this particular operation and then to return?

COL VENTER: No.

UNKNOWN: What other things did you do during yourperiod of 18 days in Port Elizabeth, couldn't you give us a lotmore detail?

COL VENTER: The task of such a group in an area was totrace trained MK members.  The askaris or ex MK members were familiarand knew where the other trained people were and they moved aroundin this area to trace other MK's.  That was our main task.  Ifsome of them could be traced they would be arrested and handedover to the security branch in that area.  Other tasks includedthe identifying of people involved in riots and chaos which existedat the time and to convey that information to the security branchof that particular area, further investigation.

UNKNOWN: Did you perform these duties during the18 days that you were there?

COL VENTER: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: And Colonel Venter did you contact variousmembers of the security branch in the Port Elizabeth area in thatperiod?

COL VENTER: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And why did you do that?

COL VENTER: We went to all the various branches in anarea to find out whether there was any way in which we could assistthem because I also at the various branch offices I would forinstance go to Uitenhage and I would deploy my people there andI would visit that particular branch.

UNKNOWN: Colonel we heard Brigadier Cronje's
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evidence to the effect that the unit at Vlakplaas, specifically,was established to assist other security branches in for instancetracing of terrorists, would you agree?

COL VENTER: Yes that's correct.

UNKNOWN: In your statement you mentioned MajorWinter who was the commanding officer at the Cradock Police Station.

COL VENTER: He was the commanding officer of the securitybranch.

UNKNOWN: Alright, I just wanted to rectify that.Now was he the person who took you to the police station whereyou saw the three activists for the last time?

COL VENTER: As far as I can remember.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever speak to the commanding officerin Cradock?

COL VENTER: Are you talking about the station commander?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

COL VENTER: No.

UNKNOWN: Are you personally aware of whether thestation commander was involved in the death of the activists?

COL VENTER: No I don't know.

UNKNOWN: Was there a security branch commandingofficer in Cradock and a station commander of the police station?

COL VENTER: Correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MS HARTEL: May it please the Chair, the honoured membersof the Committee, it has been agreed with my learned friends,because of our time constraint that we will be
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able to make our closing submissions on behalf of the family now.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well can you give me the case number ofthat application which was dismissed with costs.

MS HARTEL: Indeed.  In fact there are three applications.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes just give us the case numbers.

MS HARTEL: They are all South Eastern Cape local division. The first case number is 1803/85.  The second case no.1247/85.And the last case is 3236/85.  I do have copies of the proceedingsavailable if the Chair would like me to make these available.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And if I proceed to put questions to thiswitness I just want to make sure that I understood you to saythat the policemen whose names you have mentioned apparently madeaffidavits denying knowledge of the fact that ...(intervention)

MS HARTEL: That is so Mr Chair.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Of the fact that the three people were arrested.

MR HARTEL: That is so.  I didn't think it necessary tomake the affidavits available.  I have in fact copied them andthey are with me.  The particular officers whose names I havecalled out have made affidavits specifically denying that theyhad any knowledge of the whereabouts of the Pepco 3 activists.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: One of them was the station commander?

MS HARTEL: It is in fact the - the Afrikaans word is "DistrikKommandant no.18 Cradock Major P A Kallick".

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Never mind we will get that informationlater.  When you went to the airport were you aware that thesepeople were to be removed to some place outside the
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area?

COL VENTER: That is correct because they told me thatwe
had to take them to a place near the beach, near the sea.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you were told that the right peopleto arrest these people or to abduct them should be people whowould not be known in that area?

COL VENTER: Correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you think that anything lawful was goingto happen to them, to the deceased?

COL VENTER: Anything lawful?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, given the fact that the people whowere supposed to abduct them should be people who should not beknown at all, did you think that they were going to come backsafely, if I may put it that bluntly?

COL VENTER: No, no I didn't think so.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What did you think?

COL VENTER: I thought they would be removed from thatcommunity after we arrested them and that they would be removed,taken away.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you think that they were going to bekilled?

COL VENTER: At that stage I didn't think so, but laterI suspected that that would be the case.  I knew at least thatthey would be assaulted in order to extract information from themand that they would be intensively interrogated, that much I knewfrom previous experience.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You knew that they were going to be assaulted?

COL VENTER: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And possibly also to be killed?

COL VENTER: Correct.
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /...
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And as far as you are concerned you didn'tput a finger on them?

COL VENTER: No I didn't.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And I know what your counsel has said thatyou are not a lawyer, but I am also mindful of the fact that youare a very senior police officer, you know what murder is don'tyou?

COL VENTER: Correct.