Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So in other words you've never been involved in a similar case, incident?  In other words you were inexperienced to be engaged in an operation such as the one that Mr Loedolff sent you to?  You totally had no experience of this kind of situation and you were inexperienced to handle it?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No I had never been involved in that kind of a situation.  As I said to you just now ...(intervention)

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So clearly you were not the person to head a team of people who were going to make an arrest in a crowd situation when you had no previous experience of crowd control?

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson, if the witness could just be allowed to complete his answers before the next question is asked it would be appreciated.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am sorry.  I don't know which question you want me to repeat, but the point I was making is it seems to me that you had no experience whatsoever with the major operation that you had been sent out to by Mr Loedolff.

DOUW VERMEULEN: Yes I had other experiences, but yes that was the first time in my life that I experienced this kind of thing.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Weren't you worried that you were sent into an area which was potentially explosive when you had no experience at all?

DOUW VERMEULEN: As I said I went to many situations, today I say many, it feels like there were many, in the two months that I worked with the Riot Unit and I handled them well.  Today I think that I handled them well, or to the best of my abilities.  Situations such as the one that happened on this day, if your conclusion is that I was incompetent, yes, I had never before experienced anything of this kind, I didn't have experience of this kind of thing and if you then want to say that I was incompetent and you want to link that to my lack of experience that is your right to do so.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Well I was really basing it on what you were telling me.  Can you go into the kinds of ammunition you carried on that day, I just want to outline it so that you can refer back to it again.  Can you just go back and tell us what kind of ammunition you had in the vehicle.  I am not talking about ammunition that was loaded, I am talking about the kind of ammunition that you had in the vehicle.  If you could just tell us again please.

DOUW VERMEULEN: When you ask me that question about the ammunition I was carrying with me I would have to lie to say that I had more ammunition that I carried with me or whatever.  I can remember what was loaded into my shotgun and I remember that I had a 9mm pistol.  I can't recall whether I had any other kinds of ammunition with me.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Not you personally but as the person who was in charge of the team, what kind of ammunition or whatever, bullets or whatever kinds of ammunition you would load into a gun, what did you have in the vehicle when you went to physically check what each of the policemen on that day had, what did they have?  I just want to go through the list with you quickly.

DOUW VERMEULEN: My members had birdshot, AAA.  They had their handguns, sidearms.  I think they all had 9mm pistols, but the 9mm .38 was the standard hand gun.  I think they all had their 9mm pistols and that's all I can recall.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now which ones would be less lethal if the instruction was to use less violence, which ones of these would you use?   I am not asking which ones you used but I am asking which ones would you use if the instruction was to use less violence.

DOUW VERMEULEN: If my instruction was to use as little force as possible then I think the birdshot would be the one I would use.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So that would be the choice, the first choice that you make?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Yes, that would be my first choice.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And presumably because the expectation was to arrest people you would be prepared to use birdshot, right?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Could you please repeat the question?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Because you had set out to make an arrest you obviously would be loaded - your guns would be loaded with birdshot or you would be prepared to use birdshot, so whatever firearms you were using they would be loaded with birdshot?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I would just like to say something.  If I set out to make an arrest and it's at all possible to take or use no ammunition whatsoever then that is what I would do.  You don't need ammunition to perform an arrest.  You don't have to shoot a person to arrest him.  You can arrest him without shooting him.  So the ammunition loaded into the vehicles and also into the rifles or guns weren't taken to perform arrests with, I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I think at this point we have been asked to ask for a break and while we continue with a bit of questioning I will ask Christel to put up the video - oh Dr Wendy Orr is making the arrangements to put up the video, but maybe we will continue with a bit of questioning before.
And to return to the instruction, what exactly was the instruction given by Mr Loedolff to you?  Mr Loedolff has told us what he told you but we would like you to tell us what Mr Loedolff instructed you to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I just interrupt you for a moment.  I am not sure that our instructions were clear.  We would like to show the video now and we would like to ask the people who are responsible for putting it together to come forward and we would like to give this opportunity for the families and relatives and friends of the people who died or were injured to leave the room now so that they will not suffer distress.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thanks Madam Chair.
RELATIVES AND FAMILY LEAVE THE ROOM

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Could you just answer the last question before we move on to the video please, could you answer the last question?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Right.  You may ask the question.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: That's fine.  I asked a question and I thought you remembered what the question was.  We can return to the question.

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson, the video that you are about to show can you perhaps inform us whether this is an edited version as was shown on the BBC which had about 14 cuts made to it, or is it some other video?

CHAIRPERSON: I am really not certain of the technical instruction - it is the video that was shown on public broadcast.  I am not certain about the number of cuts in it.  I will try and find that out.

ADV VAN ZYL: Then it must be an edited version.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And I would also like to appeal to teachers and people responsible here for young people that they should consider the implications of watching the video which could be distressing and that perhaps teachers should either withdraw with their students or at least be certain to be able to advise them and help them if necessary.

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson may those witnesses who do not wish to see this video, like the family members, also leave the hall please?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I was just going to ask what you would like to do, that's fine.

ADV VAN ZYL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Either leave the hall or move to another place if you prefer.
VIDEO IS SCREENED

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Dr Orr if you could rewind the video and stop just after the shooting, if you can just rewind, okay we will just stop whenever, thank you.
VIDEO IS RE-SCREENED

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Dr Orr, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will now adjourn for lunch and since we are running rather late I would like to ask that we take no more than 40 minutes for lunch and be back here at two o'clock.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We resume this afternoon with Ms Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela asking questions of Mr Vermeulen.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Madam Chair and welcome back Mr Vermeulen.  I would just like to remind you that you are under oath.

DOUW VERMEULEN: (s.u.o.)