Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: The vehicle with the suspects travelled on the N2 from North to South.

MR VISSER: Is that the freeway?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.  There was much traffic, it was difficult to catch up with the vehicle.  Gen Steyn and I noticed the vehicle at some stage.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day was this?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it was dusk, almost dark.  I believe it was dusk.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Gen Steyn and I noticed the vehicle at some stage.  We moved in on the left-hand side, into the vehicle and I shouted "Police.  Stop."  The vehicle did not stop and tried to ram us off the road.  There was no contact with our vehicle.  The other vehicle twice tried to knock us.

MR VISSER: By doing what?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: By swerving in our direction and trying to knock us.

MR VISSER: And trying to swerve to the left-hand side?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.  Wasserman was behind our vehicle in a kombi with two black members Lembede and Nduli.  I observed that they moved in on the right-hand side of the persons, of the vehicle.  The vehicle then knocked against the kombi.  Shots were fired.

MR VISSER: Was it a dangerous situation for everybody involved?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.  Shots were fired.  I cannot say how many shots were fired and by whom shots were fired.

CHAIRPERSON: From which car?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it was dusk.

MR VISSER: Do you know from which vehicle shots were fired?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I was not certain, but I had also fired shots.

MR VISSER: Very well.  In which direction did you fire?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I fired some shots in the direction of the left rear tire of the vehicle in an attempt to stop the vehicle.

MR VISSER: Could you have fired into the vehicle?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I concentrated more on the left rear tyre.

MR VISSER: Could you also

MR WESSEL: Mr Chairman, I don't know whether one objects in these hearings, but I think counsel has received an answer from the witness.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, may I not repeat a question to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR VISSER: Is it possible that some of the shots that you fired would have gone into the vehicle?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: There is that possibility, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: At that stage I was convinced that shots were fired at us and it would later seem that there were no arms, there were no weapons found in the vehicle of these persons.

MR VISSER: You say at that stage you were convinced?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.  Thereafter the kombi moved in front of the vehicle and stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell me something.  How is it that you were convinced that shots were fired at you when no firearms were in that other vehicle?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson vehicles moved around the right-hand side and I was on the left-hand side of that vehicle.  I fired shots at the rear left-hand tyre and I saw some flashes which raised the suspicion in me that they were firing from the vehicle at us, flashed in the dark and also sounds of shots being fired.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you were convinced?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: At that stage Chairperson.  Thereafter the kombi moved in front of the vehicle and stopped.  The vehicle collided with the kombi from behind and came to a stop.  I stopped our vehicle diagonally left of the vehicle and there was shooting.  It seemed that it was the Reaction Force members who had fired shots.  I after the skirmish had ceded, climbed out and investigated.  Afterwards I returned and reported to Gen Steyn that all the occupants of the vehicle had been killed and that I did not note  any firearms in the vehicle.  Gen Steyn and I immediately decided that the weapons - that according to our information was at this house, had to be fetched to plant them with these occupants.

MR VISSER: That is the information which van Sittert gave to you?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And where the observation was held by the black policemen?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said that they should bring those weapons?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Myself and Gen Steyn decided that the weapons had to be fetched from the house Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What was the purpose thereof?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: To plant them on the occupants.

MR VISSER: For what purpose?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: So that it would seem that the persons had indeed fired at our vehicle.  Gen Steyn and I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it, hold it.  So this was your idea?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was Gen Steyn and I together, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That was rather cunning wasn't it?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I beg your pardon Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Rather cunning that you killed the people then you say now let's bring those guns and put it here so make it appear that they were firing at us.  Why was it necessary to do that?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, the fact that all the persons in the vehicle had been shot, we decided to fetch the arms so that we can place it there.

CHAIRPERSON: But what was the necessity for that?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: To pretend that the persons who were in the vehicle, the group, had been armed and had fired shots at us.

CHAIRPERSON: Pretend for whose benefit?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: For our own, us the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you going to mislead by this ?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: The whole legal system, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: The legal system.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Perhaps from  the point of view of your questions, I might as well deal with it now.  Is it correct that later you gave evidence with  regard to this shooting incident?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Where was this when you gave evidence?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: In Durban Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Before which forum?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was a post mortem inquest.

MR VISSER: And what did you testify with regard to the shooting incident or whatever in the vehicle of the occupants?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, if I recall correctly, I testified that the arms were found in the vehicle.  I had place it there, I beg your pardon, I testified that when shots were fired at the vehicle, arms were found in the vehicle and shots were fired at our vehicle.

MR VISSER: From the vehicle of the deceased?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And that evidence was false?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And you did this to pretend that you acted in self-defence?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Please continue with paragraph 22.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Gen Steyn and I tried to keep members of the public away from the vehicle while Wasserman and a black member, I don't know whom, departed to fetch the arms.  W/O Wasserman returned within approximately 10 minutes with a tog bag which he handed to me.  I cannot recall how many, but there were AK47 rifles and I think two hand-grenades in the bag.  The arms were planted by me in the vehicle in such a manner that nobody would see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just take - hold on.  What were the arms that were found in this tog bag?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it was AK47 rifles.

MR VISSER: How many?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I am not certain whether it was two or three.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what else?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: And two hand-grenades.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Wasserman then gave these to you?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you put them in the car?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Amongst the occupants?