Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

ADV MEMANI: And during your lunch hour?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I did not have lunch most of the times.

ADV MEMANI: And I am sure that whilst you were busy listening to these tapes from time to time you had to communicate with some of your colleagues.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Not at all because they did not have access to this room.

ADV MEMANI: Are you saying that you never go out to give reports to your superiors, to ask something of your colleagues about these things you are listening to?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: At quarter to four I would take them to the immediate superior when we went for parades but most of the time you would come to ask: "Haven't you found anything important up to this far?"  If I say: "No", he would leave and then I would carry on.  If I say: "Yes", he takes what I give him and then he will go to the 4th floor to write down what I've given him.

ADV MEMANI: Look, Mr Miningwa, I put it to you that on that day every member of the security branch had an interest in the people who were arrested.  Every member of the security branch would have wanted to know whether there were any people who were within what I'll call his profile.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Sir, I told you that I was not working with the children, I was working with mothers and fathers, the workers, people of the trade unions.  It was another different section responsible for the children, like Motsamai and Mamome among others.

ADV MEMANI: You see Mr Miningwa, these people were not arrested or detained from the school, they were picked up at the border so at some stage you must not have known that they were just school children.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: They were known.  It was not the first time to be - they were not known the first time they were arrested, they were activists, they were school kids.  When they wanted to skip the country, it was during the time of schooling, they were still in schools.

ADV MEMANI: And I want to say to you that you are a human being, you would have been at least curious and wanted to know what was happening on that day when there were so many children, so many people arrested at a go on that day.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Sir, I heard during tea break and I explained I started working early on that day at about 6  to come and arrange my tapes, to put them in order.  Now when they arrived at half past seven, the others, I did not go out, I sat down, listened to the tape.
	During tea time when I went for tea I saw them and I was told that they were trying to skip the country, they were arrested in Ladybrand.

ADV MEMANI: At tea time at quarter to four that you saw them for the first time?

CHAIRPERSON: He has explained several times that it was at 10  in the morning when he went to tea, hasn't he?

ADV MEMANI: I'm indebted to the chair.

CHAIRPERSON: How much longer are you going to be?

ADV MEMANI: I'm also instructed that other members of the security branch were allowed to enter the room in which you listened to tapes.

CHAIRPERSON: How much longer are you going to be?

ADV MEMANI: Oh, I thought I answered that Chairperson and I said I'm not going to be very long.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well carry on because people have made arrangements.

ADV MEMANI: As the chair pleases.  In that case Chairperson, it may be a convenient time.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't think you'll finish in the next five minutes?

ADV MEMANI: Well I'm afraid to carry the burden of inconveniencing people.

CHAIRPERSON: Well carry on for five minutes.

ADV MEMANI: As the chair pleases.  Now Mr Miningwa, we also have been told that you were in the company of Mr Motsamai when Winnie Mandela's clinic was bombed.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I know nothing about that incident, I was not present.  Let me say I do not know anything about this, I was not present.

ADV MEMANI: And you were also present when the house of Citi Mzuzwana was bombed?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I started knowing about the bombing of Citi Mzuzwana's home when I saw the documents or the papers that were brought to me by my attorneys about the alleged activities by Motsamai.  I never knew Mr Mzuzwana's home to be burnt.  The house that I know that is was burnt it's Mzuzwana's house personally.   I would tell you why I knew about this, I was working as a - with the trade unionist.
	Now each and every person's individual profile was supposed to be on date.  Now the people whom we used, the informers, told me that Citi's house was burnt down.  I wrote a report and my immediate superior, who was Prinsloo, said go and inspect how the house was burnt.  It was a four roomed house and the big window was broken.  The curtains, I remember very well, they were pink in colour, but you'd see they had smoke as if they were burnt.  That is the reason why I knew about Citi's house, not his parents house.  It's my first time to hear today that his parent's home was burnt.

ADV MEMANI: And I'm instructed that you knew about both Mzuzwana's house and his parental home because in the one file, there was a sub-file, in Mzuzwana's file, there was a sub-file about his parental home.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I do not know, I did not read about it, it's my first time to hear it.  I only know the incident I just told you, I know nothing about his parent's house.

ADV MEMANI: Are you saying that you did not read Mzuzwana's file?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I'm explaining, I did not know.  I told you I did not read about it, I did not find that incident.  The incident that was noted there, was the one written by me when I reported in his file because he would write down and he'd put the copy in the file and then you have to make an entry: "On such a date Citi's house was burnt down", then you put it in the file, I did that entry.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, it seems this is a convenient time.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll adjourn till 9H00 Monday morning.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS