Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-28

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: When you arrived at the burning and you asked who had given the instruction, you believed that he was an impimpi at the time. Is that not so?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes I believed that he was an informer because the people in Nonbuthle did not want him.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson. In your evidence in chief Mr Nxkwa you said that you as action committee would meet and make a decision to eliminate somebody who was unwanted in the society. Did you attend a meeting where it was decided to eliminate Lemi?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: No I never attended such a meeting.

MR MAPOMA: Is there any meeting that you have attended where a decision was made to eliminate a person?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: No Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Are you aware that, Mr Nxkwa for you to be granted amnesty you have to make full disclosure of all relevant facts relating to the act for which you seek amnesty?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now do you understand that you have not made any disclosure regarding the death of Mr Thando Dlala?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: There is nothing I can say because I was not present at that time when he was killed.

MR MAPOMA: You were also not present when a decision was made to kill him?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: I was not there even when he was fetched at his place I was not there. But I was just tortured to submission.

MR MAPOMA: The sister of Lemi disputes that you were a comrade in Uitenhague, you as a person. What do you say to that?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: I was a comrade in 1985.

MR MAPOMA: What other activities did you participate in apart from this of killing these persons for whom you seek amnesty?

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to draw your attention before you answer that question to your rights. You are not compelled to answer any question which may implicate you in ant criminal activity outside those activities for which you seek amnesty. Do you understand?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes Sir. What was the question Sir by the way?

MR MAPOMA: My question was; what other actions of the comrades did you participate in, apart from the killing of the three persons for whom you now seeking amnesty?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma how relevant is that?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson I think the relevance of that question is to the extent that Mr Nxkwa was or was not a political activist during that time in Uitenhague which is contested by the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: You still have the choice whether you want to answer that question or not?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other activities in which you participated as a comrade, as a mission of the action committee? Other than these three incidents that you apply for amnesty? You have been warned that you are not compelled to answer that question which may incriminate you in other activities. You must make that election, whether you want to answer the question because it may incriminate you, or not.

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: There were no other incidences.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you. Chairperson that is all thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And re-examination?

MR MARTINDALE: None Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nxkwa I want you just to explain to the committee or perhaps before I ask my question. I want to explain to you that you should not regard the committee as the court of law. For example I am not a judge or a magistrate. We are expecting you people to come out and tell us everything which happened. I just want to start by picking up from where the evidence presenter has left in so far as the chairperson is concerned. If you look at page seven (7) of your application paragraph eleven (11) b, you referred to a chairperson of the action committee. To me that will mean, I will have an impression that in fact there should have been a chairperson of the action committee because it was not only when you spoke to the investigator but also when you completed the form. You said: "After the decision of the community the meeting chairperson of the area committee as well as the chairperson of the actionary committee." Now I want to know from you was there a chairperson of the action committee?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: No Sir there was no chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Right now after a decision was taken that people should be eliminated how did that decision come to your knowledge? How did you know about the decision?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: What would normally happen is if a person associated him or herself with the policemen we would convene as the action committee and eliminate this person.

MR SIBANYONI: How big was this action committee?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: We were many.

MR SIBANYONI: Now when you meet as an action committee would you meet in respect of only one person or would you meet in respect of a number of persons which need to be eliminated?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Should we get information that a person was associated with the police and was unwanted by the community we would convene as the committee and deal with that person and eliminate him or her.

MR SIBANYONI: In the meetings which you attended was the name of Dlala mentioned as the person who is not wanted by the community?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: No Sir. There were toi-tois all the time and make mention of all the unwanted informers in the community.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you present when those toyi-toyi'ing took place where people were mentioned who were not wanted by the community?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes I used to be present during the toi-toiing.

MR SIBANYONI: During the toi-tois where you were present was the name of Thando Dlala mentioned?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes they were mentioned. Him and Whitie and Lemi. And Kinikini and others.

MR SIBANYONI: When actions were taken, in other words when people who went out to eliminate Dlala you were not there? Do I understand you correctly?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: I was not there Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Would you say your association goes as far as taking part in the toyi-toyi'ing where his name was mentioned as a person who is not wanted by the community?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you no further questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me what did the community of Uitenhague need to be protected against those days?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: It was being protected from the government of the day. Because the policemen would come in and shoot people randomly in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what do the impimpis have to do with that?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: We could not sleep at our homes because of informers.

CHAIRPERSON: What did they do?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: They would go out and point us out. And tell them what we do in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: And the councillors?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes they were also not wanted.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: They supported the government of Apartheid.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Martindale is there any other evidence you wish to place before us?

MR MARTINDALE: Yes Mr Chairman there is another witness that I would like to call. As I understand it one of your considerations is the context. And as this subject came up now in relation to area committees and sub-committees. A Mr M Sinbandla who was at the time working for an affiliate of UDF in Uitenhague and knew the specific circumstances surrounding this situation in 1985 I submit that with the committee's leave it would be important for the committee to hear of the situation then.

CHAIRPERSON: The workings of the area committees and subordinate committees are well documented in the record attached to the papers is that not so?

MR MARTINDALE: In which set of papers Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: The application in the record.

MR MARTINDALE: Mr Chairman I certainly do not, my study of these papers did not really clarify that Mr Chairman.