Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: He asked him as to who were the culprits, the people who were involved in the witchcraft.   He said it was Johannes Maletswai Phasha.  Immediately they didn't waste time, they looked for him and they didn't find him.  They went looking for Johannes Maletswai Phasha.

MR RICHARD: Why did they look for Johannes Maletswai?  Isn't that Jan M Phasha?  Johannes and Jan, aren't they the same person?  Mr Phasha, is Johannes Maletswai Phasha the same person as Jan Phasha?  I think there may be some confusion.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: No, it's not one person.  Maletswai Phasha is one of the people who were suspected to be witches and Jan Mashyani Phasha is the one who had more information on the searching of the missing person.

MR RICHARD: Now as a result of this discussion between the ANC Youth League leader, people were going to look for Jan Phasha, did they find him?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: They were looking for Maletswai Phasha, not Jan Phasha.

MR RICHARD: Maletswai Phasha, sorry I'm ...  Did they find Maletswai Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: No, they didn't.

MR RICHARD: Then what did they do next after not finding Maletswai Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: After they didn't get hold of Maletswai, I left that group.  I went home because on that day it was raining and I was wearing clothes that I could say that I cannot wear in that weather.  When I asked them as to where they were going, I was told that they were looking for Madibeng Phasha.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, they were looking for which Phasha?  Mr Madibeng Phasha, Abraham?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes, they were looking for Madibeng Abraham Phasha.

MR RICHARD: And do you know why they were looking for Abraham Madibeng Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I wanted to know at that time, because I didn't have more information, and they explained or it was explained to me that he was also a suspect in the witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: And what did you do next?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: After a while I could hear a loud noise and that's when I left my home, because I wanted to know if they had got hold of the person they were looking for, and I met them near a playground.  I requested them to stop there because I wanted to speak to them.  They stopped there.  I started questioning my uncle, Madibeng, and I said to him, or I wanted to find out from him if he knew anything about these allegations, and he explained to me that he was being used by these people and he also said he was in conflict with his brother's children.

MR RICHARD: How was he being used?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: The way he explained to me, he said he was being sent, even though he didn't explain into details as to how he's being sent to take those people he has been sent to take them, or rather, the targets.

MR RICHARD: And who was using him?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: When I questioned him he said it was Maletswai Phasha who was sending him.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I'm just confused about the names now.  Who is this uncle of yours you were questioning?

CHAIRPERSON: Abraham.

ADV SANDI: Abraham.  Okay, I thought it's Johannes ... too many Phashas here.

MR RICHARD: Now while you were talking to your uncle in front of the crowd, what did your uncle say about Moses?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: When he responded to my question he just said he was being used, these people are sending him to fetch their targets.

MR RICHARD: Was Moses a target?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: According to his version it was like that, he was sent to fetch Moses.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I just ask a question here.
	Was Moses not related to Madibeng?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: They are somehow related because Moses' father and Madibeng, they're probably brothers.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Now from your last question these people used Madibeng Abraham Phasha as a means of fetching Moses as a target, who were the people that you call "these people"?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: He told me about Maletswai Phasha and he didn't tell me about others, he just told me about Maletswai Phasha.

MR RICHARD: So if I understand your answer to my question, Abraham Phasha now in front of the crowd, admits procuring a victim for the moloi, am I right?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes, it is so, because he also requested me to ask for forgiveness from these people, he said I must apologise to these people on his behalf.

MR RICHARD: Now you're using the phrase "these people", this time I'm assuming that these people are the ANC youth that are around him and you.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now did you try and intercede on his behalf with the community?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I wanted to but then the crowd was angry, therefore I was scared that if I do so they will also be mad at me, thinking that I'm protecting him.

MR RICHARD: So you didn't attempt to protect him or persuade the crowd to leave him alone, what did you do instead, did you stay with the crowd or leave the crowd?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: It was a big group, the group divided itself into two, one group left, that's the group that I joined because this group that left were looking for someone else who was also a suspect.  According to the group this person was also a suspect, therefore I decided to accompany the group because I wanted to protect this person because he was not a witch.

MR RICHARD: No who was this person that you wanted to protect, who was not a witch?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Mashayani Phasha.

MR RICHARD: Now did your part of the crowd find Mashyani Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes, I found him, I met him on the road after I left the crowd.

MR RICHARD: So the big group of people that you left weren't with you anymore?  In other words, there were two groups of people, you had gone with one to look for Mashyani Phasha and the others stayed with Madibeng and by the time you met Mashyani Phasha, you weren't part of a crowd anymore, is that correct?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: When I found Mashyani Phasha there were two people who were with him and the other people were running, they were not just walking, because they were in a hurry to find a suspect before they flee.

MR RICHARD: And who were you with?  Now we know who Mashyani - were you with the big crowd?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I was the only one.

MR RICHARD: So what did you say to Mashyani Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I told him that I had heard from the group that he was also a suspect and these people wanted to kill him, it will be better for him if he runs to the police station because there he will be protected and the police will intervene.  As we were talking two police vans approached.  I don't know whether they were called by other witches who ran to the police station.  When they met us they started firing.  As they were firing the group which was in front ran away.  After they ran away Mashyani and myself were left there.

MR RICHARD: Now in the meantime as you've heard from your brother, there were around 500 people with Madibeng Phasha, did you ever see Madibeng Phasha alive again after you left him with his big crowd?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I left him alive there.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever see him alive afterwards, after you left him?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: No, I never saw him alive.

MR RICHARD: Did you participate in the stoning?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: No, I didn't.

MR RICHARD: Very well.  Now as at February 1993, did you belong to any political organisation or were you a supporter of any political organisation?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I was a supporter and a follower and I used to attend all the meetings.  When I was home I would attend all the meetings.

MR RICHARD: You were a supporter and follower and a meeting attender of which party's activities?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I was a supporter of the ANC Youth League.

MR RICHARD: Now did you know Moses Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes, I knew him, he is my brother, because his mother is my mother's sister.