Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: ... which is the response by the TRC to the letter of 5 May 1999, by the applicant's attorneys.  Did everyone receive a copy of this document?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I have not received a copy.  I understand that there are three other colleagues of mine that have not received a copy.  I received a document approximately 10 minutes ago and I've tried to glance at it, but I haven't even had the opportunity of glancing through it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Is this just a separate document?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I received this document from Mrs Pretorius, which appears to be the document and I haven't had an opportunity of even glancing   ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Does it go to page 38, do you know?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, mine's not paginated.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I have not received a copy yet.  That copy is Mr Strydom's, I think, that Mr da Silva has.  Up to now I haven't received a copy either.  And may I speak for Mr David Mey, he is sitting in the hall and he hasn't received on either.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, it seems to me that I haven't received on either.  I went through the notes that Mr du Plessis got yesterday and we don't have copies.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR BOTHA: We don't have one either, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: I did receive one, thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: I received a copy.

MS TANZER: I did too.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I've got a copy, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I have a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you receive it?

MR MALINDI: I received it yesterday.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, Ms Cambanis and I both received separate copies yesterday.

MS THOMAS: Chairperson, I received mine this morning.  I haven't had an opportunity to go through it yet, but I do have a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know the extent to which this document would be relied upon in opposition to and support of the present application.  So it seems to me that all the legal representatives must be given enough time to go through the document, to the extent that it may be relevant to the application which we were scheduled to hear this morning.
	Is there any reason why these other legal representatives who didn't receive this document were not furnished with one yesterday?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Chairman, there's actually no reason why they were not given that document I must say and I regret that quite sincerely.  I'll try to apologise to the other parties who have not been given that information, I mean that document.  	Unfortunately Chairperson, the circumstances under which we distributed the document were not very much conducive for everyone to get them because we only made them available when we were, after the adjournment and unfortunately some of the colleagues had already left at that time because immediately when the adjournment was made people just packed and left.  We are going to endeavour to make those copies available to them as soon as we can.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have anyone assisting you with making photocopies?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I'm being assisted by the secretary and Mr Jan Eck(?).

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR MAPOMA: And Mr Jan Eck, the Investigator.  I rely entirely on them in fact for making copies available.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Isn't there supposed to be a Logistics Officer?

MR MAPOMA: There's supposed to be one.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there one, do we have one?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, we do.

CHAIRPERSON: Why can't he assist?

MR MAPOMA: She also was part of the assistance in making copies.

CHAIRPERSON: When can you have those documents?  Could we have those documents made available to the legal representatives by tea time?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir, I will undertake to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, very well.  What is your attitude, Mr...?

MR STRYDOM: I think it would only be just and fair if my colleagues have the opportunity of perusing the document, having it available.  I will not rely too much in argument on the document, as I've indicated to my learned friend, but Chair I don't have a problem with that.
	There's one aspect though that I'd  like ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The application as I understand it, is being brought by yourself only.

MR STRYDOM: On behalf of all the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed.  So they have no part to play in this application, you're other colleagues?

MR STRYDOM: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR STRYDOM: Chair, just one aspect, did you mention that the document comprises 31 pages?

CHAIRPERSON: 38.

MR STRYDOM: I have one of 37.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, that's a matter for arithmetic.  Alright, how much time Ma'am, do you think you will need to go through that document and be ready?

MS THOMAS: Chairperson, it doesn't appear to be a very long document.  I would say 20 to 30 minutes.  I don't even know what it contains, but I would say 30 minutes is reasonable.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it's not just a question of reading the document, it's a question of reading the document and then considering your position in regard to the document.  So I'm not too sure that that process would take 30 minutes.

MS THOMAS: I'm in agreement.  By saying 30 minutes, I was just trying not to cause undue delay to the proceedings.  I'm in full agreement, one would indeed further have to take instructions on the basis of the contents of the document, so it might take much longer than 30 minutes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what I'm trying to find out from you.  ...(indistinct) we're going to do.  We will excuse you from attending.  We'll give you enough time to go through that document and to consider your position, and then would you let us know by 11 o'clock whether you will be in a position to proceed with the matter if the matter is argued at 11H30 today.

MS THOMAS: I will indeed do so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ... or whether you prefer - because I think that the number of options, one is to have the matter argued at 11H30, otherwise we can have the matter argued at 2 o'clock when we come back from lunch.

MS THOMAS: I will indeed give an indication, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Otherwise we can have the matter argued at half past four, when we finish hearing the evidence.  So these are the three options, okay?

MS THOMAS: I will keep the options in mind, Chairperson.  I will indicate what my position is to you at 11 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but if you are not going to be ready today and you would prefer to have the matter argued tomorrow, which is Thursday, you let us know.

MS THOMAS: I will do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but at least we need some indication.

MS THOMAS: At 11 o'clock?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, at least just to give us your own assessment as to where you stand.

MS THOMAS: I will do so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, do you have any objection to the...?

MR LOWIES: Not at all, Chair, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not being persuaded by the half past four option, are you?

MR LOWIES: No, Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  What about your colleagues?

COUNSEL: Mr Chairman, I'm in a very difficult position ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed, yes.

COUNSEL: I can't make any comment.  I haven't read or looked at the document properly so ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed.  Very well.  We will then resume with the testimony of Mr Baloyi.  You are excused Ma'am from attending.

MS THOMAS: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Is it possible, Mr Mapoma, to get the further copy - do we have the other copies ready in the meantime?

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately no, Chairperson, the missing copies, I don't have them.  They are going to be recopied.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we have those copies being made in the meantime, so that at least by 11 o'clock we are ready to distribute them.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.