Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

MS PHAHLANE: I didn't come to the Truth Commission.  I went to be fetched as one of the 19 people who were assaulted, I started with Legal Board last year in November.

MR VISSER: How did it come about that you decided to come forward as a victim, did somebody talk to you, discussed the matters with you?

MS PHAHLANE: I made a decision that I should come to appear before this Commission because I am one of the victims in 1986, after I learnt that the members of the Security Branch said that they did not assault us.

MR VISSER: I see.  You didn't discuss this with anybody, did you?

MS PHAHLANE: Which people are you referring to sir?

MR VISSER: I am referring to one person, did you discuss it with Thandi Jacobs before you came?  Before you came forward and told everybody (indistinct)

MS PHAHLANE: I went to him after, to her after I went to Legal Board.

MR VISSER: Did you compare your evidence with what she was going to say before you came to give evidence?

MS PHAHLANE: No sir.

MR VISSER: All right, we will return to that.  Mr Chairman, I simply point out that the name of not one of these two people appear on the list which we have had all along during this amnesty applications.  I make no further point of this.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, in fairness to the witness if some decision has to be taken about this fact, this is the list of victims based not on what people came forward, but on what victims that Mr Motsamai could recall at the time of making the list, and I think there is also a, there was at some stage mention of the fact that it is not an inexhausted  list, it is a list of people that he can recall.
	There were many people that were involved.

MR VISSER: I accept that Mr Chairman.  I just thought that you should be aware of that, that's all.
	Now, I just want to refresh your memory Ms Phahlane about your evidence.  You told the Committee that you were arrested and that you didn't say so, but it is common cause that you were arrested in the area of Brandfort by the South African Defence Force, is that correct?  I am sorry, Ladybrand, in the area of Ladybrand by the South African Defence Force?

MS PHAHLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You were then taken to the Security Branch in Ladybrand, and transferred to Bloemfontein?

MS PHAHLANE: That is so.

MR VISSER: Now, you then said you were taken to Ramkraal, then something which was translated to be you were not welcomed?

MS PHAHLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is that a correct translation of what you intended to say?

MS PHAHLANE: We were not welcomed at Ramkraal, we were welcomed at Bakroad, but we were ultimately taken at Fountain.  The people at Ramkraal said they were not going to take us in due to the reasons they had, and we were then taken to Bakroad.
	We ended up at Fountain, and the Police were already waiting for us, these are the people who took us then.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, I should mention in fairness to the witness that the word she uses in her own language in English can be translated "not received", just as it can be translated "not welcomed".

MR VISSER: Yes.  That is why I wanted to clear it up more on behalf of the witness, because both these witnesses said exactly the same thing, it was translated as the same thing, it didn't really make sense in English.
	And that is why I gave her the opportunity and I do appreciate your input Mr Chairman.  I can then move on.
	Now, you gave a whole list of names ms Phahlane of policemen who were present at Fountains and you said Mamome, Mr Chairman, may I interrupt myself.  As promised I did present a list to the person who is recording the evidence, I didn't discuss it with him, but it did occur to me that he is not a scenographer, that through the Chair, you could ask him that the list be passed on with the tapes, to the people who is going to type it otherwise it won't help giving him a list instead of spelling it, otherwise we will be reduced to spelling it every single time.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure this will done.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  It is Mamome, Motsamai, Ngo, Tsoametsi, Erasmus, du Plooy, Mningwa, Mmelesi, those are names you mentioned.  Do you remember and others?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes,I mentioned them and Mmelesi.

MR VISSER: What I want to ask you, is would you please tell us quite plainly who can you tell this Committee today actually assaulted you and if you can, just to tell us how exactly you were assaulted?
	Let me explain one thing to you Ms Phahlane, I am not talking about one particular day, I am not talking about the first day or the second day, for however long you were there, I want to know who assaulted you if anybody had, and how were you assaulted?

MS PHAHLANE: That is Mamome, Mr Du Plooy, Erasmus, Motsamai and Ngo.  I would start with Ngo, I went to the first office, I found Ngo, Motsamai and Mningwa.  When I entered there, they interrogated me.  I answered those questions, but Ngo didn't ask many questions.
	He said to me I told you many times that we are going to meet one day, he got hold of me by the back of my neck, then he slapped me, then I fell on the chair.  After that, others went out, Mningwa didn't do anything and Motsamai didn't do anything, he was just speaking on that day.
	He was in the kitchen, he was slapping me.

MR VISSER: You are going a little bit quickly unfortunately.  Can you just go slightly slower please, thank you Ms Phahlane, you were at the point where you said Mningwa didn't do anything to you and Motsamai didn't do anything to you.  Will you please repeat from there onwards please?  You were saying at the kitchen...

MS PHAHLANE: Mr Motsamai slapped me whilst we were in the kitchen because they were calling us one by one before we went to the various rooms of offices.
	The first one which I entered as I said, that we were three, then Ngo entered again, then he did what I have already explained.
	Thereafter I was taken back to the kitchen.  Whilst I was in the kitchen during the day, Mr Mamome came.  He called me to his office, then he interrogated me saying how did I join those people whilst they were assaulting me.
	That day they found me with the people who were escaping, because I didn't camp with those people, I only joined them on the last day when we departed.
	Then he took a tube, he put me on the chair, then he blindfolded me, then he took a cloth and put it on my face, then from there, he removed it, then somebody put a blindfold me with the tube, then he get hold of the tube, then he was fastening the tube whilst he was blindfolding me.
	 I am not sure how many minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: He, who was it?

MS PHAHLANE: I am talking about Mamome.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Ms Phahlane, I couldn't help noticing perhaps there is an obvious explanation for it, but I couldn't help noticing that there was some delay before you replied that Mr Mamome was the one that was doing this.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I think that is obviously his interpretation.

MR VISSER: I will accept that immediately Mr Chairman.   All right, now we have it, I am sorry, I should ask you this, is something funny Ms Phahlane?  Let's just concentrate in getting this job done.
	We now know that Mr Mamome, Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai assaulted you.  Mr Ngo grabbed you by the neck, was that grabbed from behind or from the front?

MS PHAHLANE: From behind as I am demonstrating.  I was sitting down, and he is taller, he just took out his hand and grabbed me.

MR VISSER: And he slapped you?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes, severely so with an open hand.

MR VISSER: Which side of your face?

MS PHAHLANE: This side My Lord.  The left side.

MR VISSER: And you fell on the chair or off the chair?

MS PHAHLANE: I fell and the chair slipped away.  I managed to stand and then I just kept quiet, putting my hand right where he slapped me.

MR VISSER: Then after a while you were taken to the kitchen, am I right?

MS PHAHLANE: You are right.