Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-27

MR CURRIN: We also heard evidence and you have testified to this and I just would like to get clarity 
because I don't fully understand the evidence which you gave in-chief as to 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR CURRIN: 245	GEN V/

UNKNOWN: your position regarding joint projects between the SAP and the South African Defence Force. Was there an 
official policy in regard to joint security projects, joint action to be taken by the SAP and the SADF or 
wasn't there?
GEN V/

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, It is actually a broad understanding.  Let me say, our cooperation with 
the Defence Force firstly took place where the coordination at management level and where certain 
instances had to be decided upon where the Defence Force and the police were jointly going to work 
together. I think you are referring to specific project.  There was no policy as far as specific projects were 
concerned but we operated on an ad hoc basis especially with other countries, but there was a policy in 
general that we would act jointly and the general policy was that each force acts of its own accord, but 
where it was on an ad hoc basis, they would act jointly. But there was no approach that that was the general 
practice.

MR CURRIN: The last question which I would like to put to you for the victims, the victims want to know 
whether the top structures, the State President, the State Security Council, Ministers involved in police 
affairs in your instance, had knowledge and participated in giving instructions in matters where their loved 
ones were killed. Now, I haven't been able to get that answer from you because we have only been able to 
speak in general terms.

HASSAN MALL: Is the question related to whether specific Cabinet Ministers gave instructions to take part 
in a specific act at a given time, is that what you are really saying?

MR CURRIN: That is what I am trying to establish, we haven't been able to get because of the generality 
of the 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR CURRIN: 246	GEN V/

UNKNOWN: evidence which has been given, which I appreciate due to the circumstances at the time.

HASSAN MALL: I understand, but that is what you are really trying to get now?

MR CURRIN: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: The role of each, not each but Cabinet Ministers who were on the State Security Council 
for example?

MR CURRIN: Precisely.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

MR CURRIN: Was the Minister of Law and Order, for example, knowledgeable of acts that were being 
committed by the Security Police?  Was the State President aware of acts of violence which were being 
committed, unlawful killings that were committed?

HASSAN MALL: No, not just was aware, it is not a question of who was aware, you are really interested in 
whether he authorised?

MR CURRIN: Well, yes, either expressly or by implication if he was aware and they took no action or 
they didn't reprimand, well then there would be at least implied authorisation. I understand that there was, 
from the evidence, that there couldn't have been expressed authorisation, that is my understanding of the 
evidence. Could we say that there was at least implied authorisation?
GEN V/

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, once again I would like to emphasise I said apart from specific 
incidents I have already testified about the Zero Handgrenade attack where I made a recommendation 
which was approved by Minister Le Grange and in other words he was aware of that. It is very difficult for 
me to speak about the other incidents because 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR CURRIN: 247	GEN V/

UNKNOWN: I cannot testify that the Ministers were involved or were aware of that, but I, myself did not inform them 
and I am aware if they knew.

MR CURRIN: I want to ask you then just in regard to the matters where I am appearing on behalf of 
victims whether you know as you do with the Zero Handgrenade as to whether or not there was such 
information. The Ribiero killing?
GEN V/

UNKNOWN: I do not have any knowledge. I also do not have any knowledge and I will tell you if 
I do, I do not have any knowledge whatsoever.

MR CURRIN: There was, we have already heard the matter involving brutal torture, assault and then 
killing of three activists, Maake, Makupe and Sefolo?
GEN V/

UNKNOWN: I don't have no knowledge about that whatsoever, Mr Chairman.

MR CURRIN: Geoffrey Sibaya ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Currin I think the point which Mr Visser was trying to make is that, and I 
have that difficulty, you've mentioned the Ribiero incident, you've made another one and the witness again 
says "I have no knowledge", I don't know what it is that he doesn't know.  I don't know whether the witness 
is saying he has no knowledge or whether he is saying in terms of the long introduction that you made 
before you came to specific incidents, whether the witness is saying "I don't know that the Minister or the 
President knew"?

MR CURRIN: I think that is the question and I think that is what he is saying, that ...(intervention) 
GEN V/

UNKNOWN: It applies to both Mr Chairman. I don't know and I don't know if any of the Ministers 
knew of it. Otherwise I would confirm it as such and I was not 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR CURRIN: 247	GEN V/

UNKNOWN: personally involved.

MR CURRIN: The focus of the question is whether there was the knowledge of the instruction going all 
the way up, whether he knows whether there was such knowledge, as for example, with the Zero 
Handgrenade case, where he knows that there was an instruction from the Commissioner and the Minister 
knew. I am trying to establish whether that knowledge existed in any of these case, in his mind. Is that 
clear?

JUDGE WILSON: What was the second one you mentioned?

MR CURRIN: The second one I mentioned was Maake, Makupe and Sefolo.

JUDGE WILSON: There wasn't one between Ribiero and that?

MR CURRIN: No. And then Geoffrey Sibiya?
GEN V/

UNKNOWN: I don't know about it Mr Chairman, I don't even know if the Ministers or anyone else 
knew about it.

MR CURRIN: The Nietverdiend matter?
GEN V/

UNKNOWN: No knowledge, Mr Chairman. I don't have any information with regard to that.

MR CURRIN: The KwaNdebele Nine?
GEN V/

UNKNOWN: No information, I don't know whether the Ministers know, I don't know.

MR CURRIN: And the killing of Sergeant Mutasi and his wife?
GEN V/

UNKNOWN: No information, I don't know whether the Ministers know, knew anything about it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, before I go on with re-examination may I be afforded an opportunity 
and before Mr Visser goes on with his questions, may I be afforded an opportunity for a short adjournment 
if it would please you?

HASSAN MALL: We will grant you that opportunity - do you 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 248	GEN V/

UNKNOWN: want that just now?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, there are a few things I want to discuss with Mr Visser which I 
haven't had the opportunity this morning.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I have only got one question which I wish to put to General van der Merwe.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Perhaps it may be convenient for me to do so straight away?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, please do so.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: General, you have been referred to public comments or 
speeches which would have been made by high officials in the government.  My question to you with 
reference to that is simply this. You as Commissioner of Police was told at a political platform - what you 
were told at a political platform in a political speech was that how you understood your instructions or were 
your instructions relayed to you in a different manner?
GEN V/