bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Although I heard it might not be in this precise room, it might be in another room somewhere here.
	So we will then adjourn until the 26th of September 2000, at this centre, and I think on the first day we'll aim to start at 10 o'clock.  I think on the first day, because they've normally got to set up the sound system etcetera, so it will be at 10 o'clock on Monday the 26th - sorry, Tuesday the 26th of September 2000.  Thank you very much.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
HEARING ADJOURNS TILL 26TH SEPTEMBER 2000
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

MR COETZEE: With regards to McQuillan, did anything else happen after the recruitment of McQuillan concerning the project?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, Mr McQuillan was sent to London.  He received the 15 000 dollars from me.  He flew to London and after approximately 10 to 12 days he returned and he contacted me, but Lafras Luitingh told me that I must break all contact with him, that they will contact him in London, but from London he must give me a number, what he was doing and what I then entered into the system, but McQuillan kept on contacting me on my page number.  I then went to him, made contact with him and he handed over an envelope.  This envelope was sealed.  I opened the envelope and inside the envelope I saw a breakdown of how the 15 000 was spent, inter alia how the safe house was established, how the vehicle was purchased, the contacts in place and he also mentioned an Australian would be flown in to do such a project.  I was not satisfied.  I felt that this happened because of my initiative and I was not known in this and it was very clear that the project was going on and that he had tasks that were not mentioned to me.

MR COETZEE: What happened then?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I resealed the envelope and I handed it over to Luitingh.  He was not very happy that I had contact with McQuillan and I told him that this man does not want to meet them because he was connected to me, I experienced it that he was more satisfied if he worked through me and I mentioned it to them.  He was also not very satisfied about it but things continued.  Then at one stage it happened that he came to me, Lafras Luitingh, and he told me that the McQuillan project had to be suspended.  I asked him why.  He told me that McQuillan, there was a leak and that the whole world knew about the 15 000 dollars that was paid over to him.

MR COETZEE: Were you involved in the Security break?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, no, although I had an idea that they were trying to place the guilt in front of my door, but right from the beginning, with my dealings with McQuillan, I reported to Luitingh and they had to check him out.  McQuillan had CIO connections and also Intelligence connections in South Africa as well as George Mitchell.  I then decided to suspend all contact with him and I left it there.

MR COETZEE: And then there was nothing else concerning him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, well I wondered about this issue and the fact that they disinformed me about it and I do not want to go into it, but it seemed that it was not true.

MR COETZEE: Very well.  What happened then?  What occurred after the McQuillan situation?  What was the next project in which you were involved in?
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry why did you speak to Capt Zeelie?  Wasn't he Security Branch?

FERDINAND BARNARD: He was a former Security Branch member.  He later went to the Brixton Murder and Robbery unit.

MR COETZEE: Would you have, for example, spoke to him about the CCB and your involvement in the CCB?  Would that have been acceptable?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, it would have been a large security break.  I had to lie as I usually lied.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairperson I see it's quarter to four.  I know that at quarter to four Mr Barnard is to be returned.

CHAIRPERSON: Unfortunately the Correctional Services have to leave early with Mr Barnard in order to avoid the traffic jams.  We'll then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning.  Yes.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may I just place on record at this stage, unfortunately the matter is now being postponed until tomorrow.  I foresee that there will be a considerable amount of publicity that will be given to this version of Mr Barnard on television tonight, in the newspapers tomorrow morning, prior to us having our opportunity to cross-examine him and to illustrate that what is being said here is just another lot of his lies that he has now dished up here for the Commission and I'd like to place it on record at this stage, that in so far as his evidence is concerned about the Webster matter, that will be disputed and it will be shown that what he is saying here is a complete fabrication of the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wessels.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll then adjourn until half past nine, the same venue, tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

MR COETZEE: Just for the record, it cannot be recorded, the length that you have explained.  Would you say it was 30 centimetres?
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Gqomfa, can I just read back to you.  I am an applicant in this matter, having submitted an application for amnesty on the 20th of March 1997, while I was being held at the Grootvlei Maximum Prison in Bloemfontein.
	The facts to which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unless the context indicates otherwise.  I was born in Port Elizabeth and grew up in the Eastern Cape.  I am 31 years old, unmarried and I am the father of a little girl aged between three and four years.
	I passed standard 9 at school, but I never managed to complete matric.  I joined the PAC through AZANYO in 1983 and I joined APLA while I was in exile in Botswana in and during 1986.
	I joined APLA because it was a liberation army and I was determined to play a role in the liberation of the oppressed black majority in our country.  I did my military training in Tanzania, Uganda and Egypt and this training included training on how to use arms and ammunition.
	I returned to South Africa in 1991 to Umtata in the Transkei.  Here I became involved in building the political structures of APLA and more particularly I was assigned to recruit people to join APLA.  There were no ranks within APLA, but I regarded myself as a junior member of APLA.
	Although APLA had a high command and some form or hierarchical structure, units were only formed once it was decided to carry out operations.  The first operation I became involved in, was in 1992.  I was involved in four operations and I have applied for amnesty in respect of all four these operations.
	In respect of the first two operations, I got instructions from Letlapa Maphalela and in respect of the other two, I got my instructions from one Nsebe.  The targets for these operations were also identified by Letlapa and by Nsebe respectively.
	They were also responsible for supplying the arms and ammunitions.  After Sichumiso Nonxuba, a senior APLA Commander, now deceased, conducted a refresher course for APLA operatives in and during October 1993 at Tsolo in the Transkei, he instructed Mabala, who is one of the applicants in this matter, Maxebo ... (intervention)

INTERPRETER: Sorry, Mr Arendse, can you repeat the name of the person you said has since deceased?
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR MOOSA: So, Mr Coetzee knew about the car and saw it according to him, in Jeffrey's Bay.  He also knew about a certain room in which Mr Kondile was allegedly interrogated and are we to believe that's coincidence?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I do not know whether anybody told it to him, it's possible.

MR MOOSA: There would be very few people who could really tell it to him, one of them would be yourself, the other Mr Raath and perhaps Mr Dunster.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Or possibly Mr van Rensburg.

MR MOOSA: Or possibly Mr van Rensburg.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: And that's exactly what he says, Mr van Rensburg told him a lot of things.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's why I say I cannot comment because I have no knowledge of it.

MR MOOSA: I'm going to put it to you that it's actually quite unlikely that a trained activist like Mr Kondile would take the risk of writing the kind of note you talked about, while in security police detention.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can tell you that there are court cases where such things have been happening which served as confessions or tried to serve as confessions, pages were written from the cells.

MR MOOSA: But here - according to your version, you are talking about someone who wants you to believe that he is co-operating and he is willing to work for you.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

ADV VALUS: Will that be only for Mr Coetzee then or will the 
other applicants be recalled.

ADV DE JAGER: The point is did any of these people or nobody 
said anything that prejudices your client.  He did not say Danster 
assaulted, he did not say your client did anything wrong.

ADV VALUS: It was said by way of indication that my client is 
a liar.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Roux our problem is that we have a role to 
fulfil or a task to complete before the 30th of June, and if we call 
everybody who says somebody else has told a lie we will never 
finish in time.  We will determine whether your client's role was 
so large or big that it's necessary that he's represented here and 
that he should be cross-examined.  We should reconsider this 
before we decide upon that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we will tell you that if your client had 
applied for amnesty obviously he has locus standi.  If your client 
was implicated by the applicants then you would have had a 
chance, on behalf of your client to show that your client was 
wrongly implicated.  You understand?  If Dirk Coetzee gives 
evidence, or if any other applicants give evidence and if they 
implicate your client then to the extent that your client may be 
implicated you may put questions but only to that extent.  You 
will not be allowed to traverse the entire spectrum of evidence 
that has been given.  It is only to the extent that your client may 
be implicated.  Do you understand?

ADV VALUS: As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: I forgot to take your name down, what is your 
full name please?

ADV VALUS: Advocate Valus(?)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  This Committee will now adjourn 
and resume at nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: 79

H B DU PLESSIS: CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR NYOKA: 107

H B DU PLESSIS: CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV STEENKAMP: 110

H B DU PLESSIS: CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

WESTERN CAPE: COMMITTEE	125

H B DU PLESSIS: CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV VISSER: 136
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

ADV SANDI: How old were you when you left school after passing standard four?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I could have been 19.   I did not leave school because I chose to but because of my home situation, we had no money at home - that is why I left.

INTERPRETER: If Advocate Sandi could please wait for the interpreter to finish when he asks his questions.

ADV SANDI: Have you had any job before, have you worked after leaving school?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: You mean to work for a White man?

ADV SANDI: To work for whoever to earn an income.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I was not working.

ADV SANDI: I think I'm finished, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Diagonally across the road, on the driver's side of the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: Sorry, my Lord.  Driver's side that is as I understand it would be to the direction of the red roofed buildings more or less.  Perhaps with your Lordship's permission we can ask the witness just to draw an arrow in the direction in which Rasta was running.  I would like to get that as well.

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know this photo.  I am not sure, but I'll try my best to tell you from which direction.  I am not sure I don't know this photo.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you drawn it there?  May I have the  photograph back please?
	It's on the corner opposite the red roofed building, where originally there were letters IM there.  I think it was.

MR BOOYENS: May I just borrow that to see it my Lord,  We haven't got a large photograph.  We have only got smaller ones.
	Yes, I am indebted to the Commission, Mr Chairman.
	Are you under any witness protection programme, or were you under a witness protection programme?

JIMMY MBANE: I want to know the relevance of that to the case.

MR BOOYENS: Just answer the questions please.  Are you under a witness protection programme?  If so, whose witness protection programme.  Or were you under a witness protection programme?  It's not for you decide what is relevant, it's for the Commission to decide.

JIMMY MBANE: I am not under any witness protection.  I am protecting myself.

MR BOOYENS: The question was two-fold.  My mistake.  Were you at any stage under a witness protection programme?  At a earlier stage or not?  Goldstone Department of  Justice, anything of that nature.

JIMMY MBANE: No, I was never under any witness protection programme.

MR BOOYENS: Did you also make a statement in connection inter alia  this matter to the Johannesburg Attorney General, De Oliviera's team?

JIMMY MBANE: No, I never made any statement, or I can't remember if I did so or not.  But concerning this incident, I don't remember.

MR BOOYENS: Did Ms Patel,  I take it Ms Patel, my learned colleague on the other side there consulted you in November when you were down here.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, she did talk to me.

MR BOOYENS: Did you tell her that your Johannesburg statement was wrong?

JIMMY MBANE: I can't remember.  All I know is that I made another statement here.

MR BOOYENS: Well, I think my colleague is quite a conscientious lawyer, she would have consulted with you about using this statement, in all probability.  You can't remember whether you discussed the correctness or otherwise of your statement with her?

JIMMY MBANE: I remember taking the statement with Khoisan, telling him what happened about my statement that was wrong.  That's the only person that I can remember talking to about the statement.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I see it is virtually 4 'o clock.  I think I am finished with cross examination of this witness.  But obviously there may be some things that I have left out.

CHAIRPERSON: Reserve your right until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
Very well, we will adjourn.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-01-14

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I'm in a position to proceed with my final address in this matter.  I have prepared written heads of argument and I propose to go through them and obviously if the Committee wishes to ask questions at any stage, then please do so.  I think copies have been handed to the interpreters.
	Mr Chairman, may the matter just - everyone else seems to have them except the members of the Committee, may the matter just then stand down for a minute or so until they find them.  I came here with 10 copies and I sit with the original Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: These apparently were with the logistics officer, we've no got them, thank you very much.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed Mr Arendse.
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-01-14

CHAIRPERSON: We have it before us.  It might be useful if you highlight what you think should be highlighted in this document instead of repeating the whole thing.

NORMAN ARENDSE: As you please Mr Chairman.]
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-01-14

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know distinction between the carrying out of orders by people who are employed by the State, the security police - as happened in the Coetzee case.  They carried out orders as part of their employment, orders by their superiors - you don't know distinction between that case and the case of the applicants.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I don't think one can validly draw that distinction, they were similarly employed - in that sense by APLA, they were soldiers of APLA and they were told ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: There's no evidence that they were employed by APLA or employees of APLA, isn't it?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I think that's perhaps being too artificial and I think with respect, the Committee will run into certain problems in terms of interpreting politics and ideology if we start to make that distinction.  I think what ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Clearly there is a distinction between those who are employed by the Government on the one hand and members of a voluntary organisation.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, there may be an artificial and a legal distinction but I'm ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The distinction is not artificial, it's a legal distinction, isn't it?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, there is a legal distinction but I'm saying that this Committee would be asking for trouble - almost, if you begin to examine that distinction beyond it's surface and that is that yes, Coetzee and others were employed by the State, they were carrying out duties and instructions from the State - in that sense they had formal employment with the State.

JUDGE WILSON: Can't one draw a distinction between persons employed by the State carrying out their duties which they believe to be lawful and persons employed by the State committing acts which they know to be blatantly unlawful?
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-01-14

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, I intend to be as brief as I can.  I have not prepared written heads but I would ask the Committee's indulgence while I simply highlight certain of the areas.  The bulk of the evidence is before the Committee and the Committee will no doubt have to consider all the statements and all the evidence that has been led so far.
	Mr Chairman, I submit that this matter - this amnesty application, must be seen against the light of the political situation as of the 30th of December 1993.  I think it is singularly important to have regard to the fact that the controlling - the political arm, the PAC were party to those negotiations and it was made very clear during the submissions of the security forces - particularly that of the APLA, that the controlling organ within the organisation was the political structure.  
	At page 183 of the first bundle - that is of the bundle of documents, Brigadier Fitla on behalf of APLA said the following - the last four lines:
"But the command structure was such that the commander at the end of the day, has got to be politically accountable and he had to be politically accountable through consultation with the political Commissar"
And on page 184, he went on to say:
"So whatever we did had to enjoy the blessing of the Commissariat because at the end of the day, all our actions had to be politically justified"
I also refer the Committee to page 197 of the same submission or the bundle where Mr Makwinazi on behalf of the PAC stated at the bottom of the page, the last three lines:
"APLA is an organisation with the principles and the rules and regulations.  We perfected and developed it as an organisation that is subordinate to the Pan Africanist Congress.  It has the power"
And I go on to page 198:
"authority, the command to execute the armed struggle as it perceived it correct"
Now, Mr Chairman, it would see from the other submissions made during that presentation, that at some stage there was a breakdown in the desired line of communication where the political organ of the PAC in ...[indistinct] were unable to pass on the decisions that would have a military impact and it was then said that as a result of the breakdown of that communication, local commanders - and particularly in a large amount of the cases people without sufficient or adequate political education, were called upon to make decisions regarding targets to be attacked.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Prior, can I interrupt for a moment, where is all this - which page are you referring to now?

MR PRIOR: The first bundle that was handed up at the outset of the proceedings.

ADV SANDI: I've got that but which page are you referring to?

MR PRIOR: 184 of that bundle and 183 and 197, yes.

ADV SANDI: You're at page 197 now?

MR PRIOR: Yes ...[inaudible]  My microphone keeps going off.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-01-14

NORMAN ARENDSE: That is correct Mr Chairman.  I also recall that there was large-scale dissatisfaction - understandably, from some parties to the negotiations -  how can you negotiate will you're conducting and waging this armed struggle?
	So, the point I want to make Mr Chairman, is that the applicants were told that the Heidelberg Tavern is a place where members of the security forces meet.  I think on the 30th of December of any year, one doesn't expect people to hang around unless it is in fact an army base or a military installation.  You don't expect military people to wear their uniforms when they are having a good time and having a good drink, so in their minds it was a place that was frequented but unfortunately, it was not.
	As far as the criteria are concerned - I think I've made this submission in a previous matter, the Committee looks at the criteria cumulatively - none of these criteria which is mentioned by my learned friend in 23, is decisive on it's own and the Committee weighs it up.  The way I've read this Committee's decision, it appears that if it is established that an order was given, that that order was given by the State or by a military liberation movement or a political party, then this Committee will accept that that was case and that the act was done with a view to realising whatever the political objective of that particular organisation or liberation army may have been.
	Mr Chairman, I've dealt at length - in anticipation, with the Cerqueira issue and I'm not going to take that further, save to say that - and just to pick up what Judge Wilson says, that surely either before, immediately before, during or after an operation where you are conducting an operation of this kind, if you feel threatened or impeded or you perceive that you may be impeded or threatened, that that would - that there is a sufficiently close link to associate that with the main objective and in this case we're talking about seconds.  
	You get into a car, there may be a feeling that a shot is being fired at you - whether it's in front of you or behind you, the proximity is sufficiently close enough to be associated with the attack on the Heidelberg Tavern.  We're not taking about the applicants having travelled to Khayelitsha or Guguletu or even down the road to Observatory to the main road, where now they have just gratuitously shot at a passer-by.
	Unless there's any further questions Mr Chairman, I have no further comments of submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, the Committee will make known it's decision in due course.

NORMAN ARENDSE: As you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

ADV DE JAGER: I didn't suggest that, I said we can't take into consideration if he's not called because then he's not being cross-examined in this case and vice versa, your people weren't cross-examined in his application so we can't use your evidence against him without affording him the opportunity.

UNKNOWN: I expressed myself badly but that's exactly right, the problem now is that the matter has now changed because Mr Jansen has now cross-examined our witnesses. I just want you to bear that in mind in your decision Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This is a cricket game here where he's batted and you want a chance to bat.  He's cross-examined your witnesses and therefore you want a chance to cross-examine his.

UNKNOWN: It really goes a little further than that, it goes to the root of the question of evidence and the acceptability of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We will deal with that tomorrow morning.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then we'll arise and adjourn and resume again tomorrow morning.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: What I'm going to say is, I just received an order from my commander - I just knew that I was going to Cape Town, I did not know specifically where in Cape Town that I was going to go.  When he arrived he just gave me that command when we're going to go to the tavern.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that you did not know who or what was to be attacked and why?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, as we were deployed, it is the commander who knows the specifics - he was given more details, he can answer that question.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mabala, no further questions.

JUDGE WILSON: Following on that, you took part in the attack on the military camp didn't you?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Even though I was there I did not take part in it.

JUDGE WILSON: But you were one of the unit that did attack the military camp?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I was one of the people that were there Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And who were the targets there, did you know?  Where they any particular racial group?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: It is the police that were being attacked - the soldiers.

JUDGE WILSON: So that same held good on the attack on the police station, you were just attacking policemen in general, is that so?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: If you're ordered to do something, you're ordered to do that - that is all I can say.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mabala, don't keep coming back to talk about orders, orders, orders, I'm just asking you for the facts - were you simply there to attack policemen?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: That is correct, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.
	Mr Arendse, are you calling any other witnesses?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  We do not propose to call any witnesses or lead any further evidence in support of the applications Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, what is the position as far as you are concerned?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, at this stage we are not going to call our client, our client is not going to give ...[indistinct] evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Prior?
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

MR BOOYENS: That's not entirely correct.  He in fact said that at the beginning Mr Kondile was reluctant to co-operate and he hit him with an open hand and hit him with a fist and there might even have been a second occasion when he did that.  So he admits
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: Of course Mr Coetzee you heard what Mr van Rensburg said how this came about that he actually visited you at Vlakplaas as an erstwhile colleague and there you told him that it was your job to kill terrorists.

DIRK COETZEE: I can't specifically remember the visit but I won't deny it.

MR BOOYENS: You won't deny that.  It could have been there that he got the idea that if they had a problem to eliminate somebody they could call on you?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you in fact told Mr van Rensburg that that was your job.

DIRK COETZEE: That was part of my job, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: But that must have been right at the beginnings of Vlakplaas?

DIRK COETZEE: I can't remember the visit at all but I won't deny it if Mr van Rensburg put it that he's met me there Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman with the on-off situation of Mr Coetzee giving evidence there are a number of things I would like to take instructions on.  I am not going to make promises about two minutes like some of my other colleagues here and then be accused that they can't look at a watch, but I will ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: To your credit I must say at least you carry out your threats when you do make such promises.
We will now adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS QUNTA: Or for whom do you work?

BENNET SIBAYA: No English translation.

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker's wait for the interpretation please.

MS QUNTA: Yes, my apologies.

BENNET SIBAYA: I'm a gardener.

MS QUNTA: And are you married Mr Sibaya?

BENNET SIBAYA: I was married but I'm separated with my wife.

INTERPRETER: The word separated and divorce in Xhosa is the same word so I don't - the interpreter does not know what the witness means.

MS QUNTA: When did you separated from your wife?

BENNET SIBAYA: It is a long time ago, 1980.

MS QUNTA: And do you have any children?

BENNET SIBAYA: I have two children.

MS QUNTA: Can I have their names please?

BENNET SIBAYA: They're not here, they're at home.

MS QUNTA: That's fine, I need their names.  Is it girls or boys?

BENNET SIBAYA: Girls, Madam.

MS QUNTA: Can I have their names please.
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NORMAN ARENDSE: Would that explain some way the marks getting onto those buildings?  The gunman who was sitting in the car at the back ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Were there markings on the building?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, you can see them there.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Is this where they're marked?

NORMAN ARENDSE: They're gun marks.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: It would explain it yes.

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible]

NORMAN ARENDSE: If you look at 19 - thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

JUDGE WILSON: 17, 18 and 19 show the building immediately opposite the Heidelberg had been shot at doesn't it?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, it could explain it.  Sorry, could I have some water please?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be long with this witness?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I think I've quite a few more questions Mr Chairman, maybe it would be appropriate to - with your leave, to adjourn for the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you arrange for the witness to be here tomorrow?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, may I indicate we've got several more witnesses.  Is it possible - sorry, I don't even want to make the suggestion but to utilise as much of the time tomorrow as possible?

CHAIRPERSON: We can start at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, if that's convenient to ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: It's no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this Committee will now adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

MR JANUARY: Thank you Mr Prior.  Before the attack on the, Mr 
Chairman, I will just be paraphrasing my submissions, because they 
are quite extensive, I will just paraphrase them.
	Before the attack on the Heidelberg Tavern, I was a 
businessman.   I was the sole proprietor of a business which 
supported myself and also in a large measure, supported my parents 
who at the time were on pension.  The business I owned where I also 
employed specifically my younger brother and it was his sole source 
of income at that time.

MR PRIOR: What kind of business was it?
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-17

MS PATEL: That is correct, honourable Chairperson, and it is my respectful submission that an in loco is invaluable to the proper assessment of the evidence that is being led in this matter.  Having looked at the video initially and having had sight of the photographs before I went there, I was actually shocked at the size of the area in which this operation took place.  It is a lot smaller than one thinks, it actually is and I think from that point of view, it is crucial that members of the Committee have sight of the area itself, but I will ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what arrangements, if any, have been made?

MS PATEL: Well, the arrangements, from a logistical point of view, the arrangements are now in order for tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, what time?

MS PATEL: At 09H30.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your views gentlemen.

MR P WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, I am entirely in the hands of this Committee.  We have no objection to that.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, I was going to ask you to excuse Mr de Kock.  He can make absolutely no contribution whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: He was not at, there is no suggestion he was at the site or saw anything.  I think that that is...
	What do the victims feel?

MR B WILLIAMS: I would support the submission of Ms Patel, that we actually view the scene.  I am not, mindful of what my colleague says on behalf of Mr Bellingan, it, you know, I do not want to waste the Committee's time, but I think some purpose would be served by a brief view of the intersection itself.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have been outvoted.  Nine thirty, now will there be transport here?

MS PATEL: There will.

CHAIRPERSON: And will we all go in one vehicle?

MS PATEL: I have just been informed now by the Logistics Officer that there may be a problem with security with Mr Bellingan who has requested extra security.  So, they are in the process of arranging, I think, two vehicles instead of one, but by tomorrow morning it will be in order.

CHAIRPERSON: What I really mean is we do not expect everybody to come here with their own car and go in a long caravan.  We will all go together as much as possible.

MS PATEL: No, that will definitely be arranged, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What time do you think, how long do you think it will take?

MS PATEL: The reason that it has been arranged for 09H30 is the Security Officers have made that decision and, apparently, from that point of view, 09H30 is suitable for them.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am not trying to change the time, I just want to know how long it will take.

MS PATEL: About 20 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: A hour.

MR BOOYENS: Hour and a half.  Hour and a half would be more, I think it is about 20 minutes to drive there, I am not sure from the City centre.

CHAIRPERSON: A hour.  I just want to say this, the other people who do not have to go, they need not come here till 10H30 at the earliest.  That applies to you too.

MS PATEL: Would everyone please rise.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So in the process of doing so Mr Cook, let us be careful not to denude the official record of the inquest and let us not find ourselves destroying it or in some way causing it not to be there where it should be because in the process of building up our own records, we shouldn't destroy other official records.

UNKNOWN: I am aware of that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am sure that will give us enough time if you want to hand up any documents, to duplicate them.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: In furtherance of that, I have just given my secretary the photographs from the inquest documents that were handed in.  If you could put them back into the official record.

MR PAPIER: I am indebted to your Lordship.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Very well, unless there is something else to be said, I am now going to adjourn the sitting of this Committee in respect of this matter until the 20th of October 1997, at this venue.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS UNTIL THE 20-10-1997: .
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

INDEX: Examination by Adv Cook					1 - 22
Cross-examination by Mr Papier			22 - 55
Cross-examination by Ms Inthanga			55 - 58
Cross-examination by Mr Yengeni			59 - 82
Cross-Examination by Mr Forbes			82 - 100
Cross-examination by Mr Kruse				100 - 171
Cross-examination by Mr Jonas				176 - 205
Cross-examination by Mr Jacobs			205 - 228
Cross-examination by Adv Donen			228 - 240
Cross-examination by Mr Papier			250 - 251
Examination of Ms Ashua by Mr Papier		266 - 275
Cross-examination by Adv Cook				276 - 280
Statement by Jeremy Vearey				284 - 285
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

MR COOK: You say there were already a group of people there but according to this statement, only Nortje and Benzien were there and the others arrived later.

NICLO PEDRO: No, I've already said that when I arrived there, there were people - some of whose names I knew and others not and Benzien and Nortje were some of the people who were there first.

MR COOK: When were you made to undress, immediately or at a later stage?

NICLO PEDRO: It wasn't immediately.

MR COOK: Who was present when you were undressed?

NICLO PEDRO: Benzien and Nortje.

MR COOK: Who actually took your clothes off?

NICLO PEDRO: They asked me to do it.

MR COOK: And is that what happened?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes.
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

SISI KHAMPEPE: By 1994, he already had an onset of stress, that is why Mrs Benzien came to see you, but in 1997, Mr Benzien had this traumatic experience in one evening, when he had auditory hallucinations, wouldn't you say that is the onset of the accessiveness of stress?

MRS KOTZE: I would say that is when he mentally broke down.  That was the last straw that I am talking about that led to this, to the present circumstances or stress symptoms that he is suffering from.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, are there any questions you wish to put?

MR PAPIER: I have no questions, thank you Honourable Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PAPIER

JUDGE WILSON: Mrs Benzien came to see you in 1994, was that the first time she came to you?

MRS KOTZE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And did she tell you when this trouble had started?

MRS KOTZE: It is difficult for me now, you know, I don't have that detail, but she could see for quite a long time that her husband was not himself.

JUDGE WILSON: He would come home, he was in a state, and he wouldn't tell her what he was worried about?

MRS KOTZE: He would you know, roam around, and not talk to anybody and be in a bad mood and drink too much, etc, etc, and he would say to her I can't talk to you.

JUDGE WILSON: Now, how long before, you don't know how long before 1994?

MRS KOTZE: If I have to tell you, I have to guess, I would say probably about, I don't know, it could be a few years, it is very difficult for me to say.

JUDGE WILSON: You are not sure, it could be a few months?

MRS KOTZE: I think it was more than a few months, that I can maybe answer accurately.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cook, arising out of the many questions that have been put to her since I last asked you, are there any questions you would like to ask?

MR COOK: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COOK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MRS KOTZE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused from further attendance.

MRS KOTZE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment at this stage and resume in 15 minutes.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-08

JUDGE WILSON: Well I think what is being suggested is we should ask the Press, the local Press,to give as much publicity as possible to the fact that this hearing will beproceeding at nine o'clock tomorrow and that the St James hearing will not takeplace until later, say 11H30, do you agree?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. What time is the St James case scheduled to start Mr Brink?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: It would have started in the ordinary way at 9 o'clock, 9H30.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you can communicate with the attorneys involved in that matter.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: There I can.

NORMAN ARENDSE: That helps Mr Chairman that we are all involved in the same....

CHAIRPERSON: You will assist in seeing that things will work as smoothly as we can arrangeit?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, we this morning they brought the applicants through quite early, just after08H30 and we can ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If we start at 9 o'clock and say we finish at 09H30 are we going to have towait until 11H15 or whatever time before we start with the next matter?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I don't think there is any prospect of this matter finishing at 09H30. Thisapplicant still has to give evidence, that is the last applicant, Ntamo, hehas to give evidence. The Biehls have a statement to make and then there willbe addresses to you, similar to this morning's matter, we didn't finish tillelevenish.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse I think that counsel for the applicants in that matter must makethe necessary arrangements to make sure that their clients are here in sufficienttime for us to make a beginning tomorrow morning, whether it will be at 10 o'clockor shortly thereafter one can't say at this stage. But I am now going to adjournuntil 9 o'clock tomorrow morning in the hope that we finish as soon as we canthereafter.

NORMAN ARENDSE: We will do everything to assist Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will now adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

HASSAN MALL: Mr du Plessis?

ADV DU PLESSIS: That's completely in order Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Very well.  This Committee is now going to adjourn, and resume this hearing tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/W CAPE
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

UNKNOWN: Were you in Captain Bellingan's presence all the time as his Vlakplaas colleague?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, they had their places where they slept.  We slept at our own place.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but let us talk about during your working day now.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: You see how we operate, we only see the Whites in the morning when we go out and we report to them in the night when we return.  So, we usually met on a daily basis, about twice a day.

UNKNOWN: Did your infiltration work continue after this?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mine, I did not infiltrate any more.

UNKNOWN: And Jimmy Mbane, do you know?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, they were taken back to Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be much longer?  I am not trying to hurry you.

UNKNOWN: I am aware of the time and, perhaps, it may be an appropriate time to adjourn.  There may be just one or two things I want ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

UNKNOWN: ... to tie up at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn till 09H630 tomorrow morning.

MS PATEL: Would everyone please rise?
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-20

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before, I think it is extremely probable that before we meet again we will have seen a transcript of the evidence.  Could we leave it on the basis that once that is so, that if there are any matters in the transcript which you think you would like further information about, you can communicate with Ms Patel or if she notices anything that she thinks further, that you should be given an opportunity of preparing, she will notify you.
	Before we, well, I propose now to adjourn to a date to be arranged and I would urgently request the council and attorneys to consult now with Mr Martin Coetzee with a view to, if possible, arranging a date now while they are all here and I hope they all have their diaries.  I would estimate we would require at least another three days.  Do  you think three is safe?  You are not binding yourself to go longer, but if we ...

MR BOOYENS: I think it is, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could tell Mr Coetzee that and ask him to fix three days.
	I mentioned also the matter of possibly hearing the rest of the matters involving the applicant, but I am told that, I do not know quite where he gets his information from, that there are about 20 to 24 other people involved.  So, its, be not just the matter of setting down the applicants hearings and saying, well, we will deal with those in a few days.  It is a question of juggling around.  You might mention it to Mr Coetzee and see, Mr Booyens, if you and he agree which matters require a hearing and which can be disposed of.  There may be some that, technically, require a hearing, but we will only take a few, shorter time.  If you could discuss that with him, because I would like to do them all at once.  I do not think it is right, fair on the applicant that he should be required to present himself here ten times.

MR BOOYENS: I will do that, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Very well, this matter will now be adjourned to a date to be arranged.
	I see that I have been overheard in what I said, so you will not have to explain why you have come to see him, he is standing there waiting for you and will not let you go without talking to him.  
HEARING ADJOURNS TO LATER DATE TO BE ARRANGED
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

JUDGE WILSON: I think it is about the length of a cricket pitch, call it 20 paces.

CHAIRPERSON: You wish to re-examine this witness?

ADV LOURENS: No, I do not Mr Chairman.  I have no further questions.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I only know Bafino, I don't as to whether others were detained or arrested because of their activities.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that to your knowledge, Bafino Sedisa had been convicted for having raped a girl?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the same Bafino Sedisa who is the second deceased in this matter?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So had he not been sent to jail for the rape?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: He went to jail but I did not know the duration of his sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what year it was in which he had been sentenced?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I don't remember Sir.

MS GCABASHE: Was this the first time you actually followed through with trying to catch perpetrators and take them to the police?  I know you had reported incidents before but was this the first time you actually decided to actually go and look for these people and take them to the community?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: You mean to them?  Yes, it was the first time, when we started to give chase and tried to catch them.  We did try to catch the members of the Kadafi gang who stabbed one member of the young pioneers.  We caught them and took them to the police.

MS GCABASHE: So previously you had been trying to co-operate by taking people to the police and it just didn't work, nothing was done?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: You mean the deceased?

MS GCABASHE: The gangsters, including the deceased but the other gangsters, people who went with these chaps?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: Yes, that is correct.  You know it's not for the first time we tried to catch them in the township.  We were able to catch other member who have raped, and we handed them over to the police but they did not stay long in the cells, we saw them around again in the township.  We stopped there, we didn't continue with our effort to catch them again because we would hand them to the police and the police would release them.

MS GCABASHE: What were you hoping the community would do with these people, had you been able to bring them back?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: We wanted them to account for their parents so that they will be known, their identity would be known to the parents of those who were their victims.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED