Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

FRANK CHIKANE: As I said earlier, in the course of debriefing the various people allegations to the effect that actions which would border on the criminal were undertaken by members of the Mandela Football Club, those allegations were made to us.

MR VALLY: If this was - and I refer to your statement on paragraph 12 - if this was your I assume preliminary analysis what basis did you have to state in paragraphs 14 and 15 that you intuitively felt there was a third force
involved in this conflict?  What objective evidence do you have to state that?

FRANK CHIKANE: You are starting from the premise here that there was conflict in the country and there were attacks on the Mandela house prior to that.  Hand grenades and other issues and exception.  And then you have a group of young people who then come and congregate around Mrs Mandela and they are alleged to be engaged in certain activities which were criminal in terms of the allegations which were made.  We were suspicious that somebody must be engaged because there was this black on black violence concept.  Somebody must be engaged in creating the conflict to discredit the Mandelas and therefore the liberation movement.  I must also add, Chairperson, that I happened from the SACC point of view, happened to be managing a project through staff which took care of young people who had run away from all sorts of places and in the course of dealing with those children we also found that there were people who infiltrated into those centres to create conflict within.  And so we were bound to be suspicious about it.

MR VALLY: Did you bring this to the attention of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?  The criminal activity that you are talking about and the possible infiltration by state elements and what was her reaction to that?

FRANK CHIKANE: I don't remember us discussing it as an item but it was mentioned in the course of reports and discussions on those matters, that we believed that I mean the young people were in fact infiltrated and that they were dangerous.  That is why we wanted to remove them.

CHAIRPERSON: You have not answered a subsequent part of a
question, which is what was the reaction to your report.

FRANK CHIKANE: You know the reaction of Mama on these particular issues was for me like a person who is under siege, who felt everybody else around here were enemy, including from time to time the Crisis Committee when you dealt with very difficult issues that it looks like you are turning against me as well and so the reaction was to say you know you are talking like you know the system as such rather than you know deal with the issue and in my opinion that was communicated from time to time we were very concerned about it and that the football club was no good news for the Mandela name in general.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: If I could just add there that part of the explanation could be that Mama as a social worker would be clouded by social concerns and sympathy and would not see the wood for the trees.  She wouldn't see the danger that is hiding behind exactly what she was trying to protect.  She was overcome by - I would say she was overcome by altruism.

YASMINE SOOKA: I would like to know was she informed in detail about the activities that the Mandela Football Club had been involved in, was she aware of the fact that there were allegations of rape and beatings on the students?

MR MOKOENA: Our role as we explained in the submission was not that of a detective nature to systematically look at things and said who did what where.  The overacting role was to manage the crisis, to ensure that it doesn't really escalate and also our conviction that the Mandela Football Club should actually be removed from that house.  So that was our approach.

YASMINE SOOKA: I am sorry, Mr Mokoena (indistinct) is was she
told about what the football club was getting up to and how the community felt about it?   Because you must have had some basis for insisting that these members of the football club should be removed from the house.  
MS ?: I think that question was answered by Sidney because after our intervention with the students at Daliwonga we came back as to report the findings why the students decided, some of them, to burn the house.  It was also actually (indistinct) that the boys from the club were actually abusing the schoolgirls in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's get it straight.  You told Mrs Mandela the (indistinct) football club are, it is alleged, engaged in criminal activities, i.e. rape, et cetera, assault and so on.  Did you say that specifically?  And the answer is yes.  No.

FRANK CHIKANE: Yes, we gave her a full report of the allegations which were being made by people we debriefed.

MR VALLY: Thank you.  If you look at your last sentence in paragraph 19. In addition to the altruistic motivation that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela may have had in keeping these young people at her house you also state, and I quote
"She also insisted that the football club was important to her since some of its members served as her security personnel".
Now in the first section 29 enquiry, page 86 Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was asked this question by me. Referring to the youth at her house.  Referring to Mandela United Football Club youth.  I asked the question:
"Were they ever used as a body guard for example".
And the answer was no.   Sorry, maybe I should just give a
small context to it, which starts off on page 85.   I asked her regarding Mandela United Football Club:
"Did you provide food, clothing, education, all these amenities to the youth?"
And it goes on on page 86, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela:
"Yes I made sure that I got assistance for them".
My question then was:
"In exchange did they have any duties?"
And the response was:
"No, not in exchange for anything.  What could I get from youth?"
And I asked:
"Were they ever used as a bodyguard for example?"
She said no.  I asked:
"Were they ever used to guard the house?"
The answer was:
"They were not used to guard the house for me but they monitored the house for themselves because three-quarters of them would be on the run for one thing or another from the police".
That is the first response - that is the response from a section 29 enquiry.  There is an interview with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela on NBC News on the 1st February 1989 and I apologise, Arch, for not sending you a section 30 notice here.  The question was:
"Why then are people like Desmond Tutu then taking shots at you through the football team saying it should be disbanded?"
Mrs Mandela:
"I am quite surprised at him because he is well aware of the situation back home.  I understand that he made that statement overseas.  Firstly Desmond Tutu knows that I have no bodyguards.  I do not need bodyguards.  I do not need to be protected from my people.  Such reference to the youth (indistinct) from the SACC can only be mischievous..."
And then it goes into the whole issue of Paul Verryn.  Did she tell you that she was using these youths as a bodyguard or not is my question.

FRANK CHIKANE: We stand by our submission that ... to remove the lot and arrange.  That is why in one paragraph, I don't know which one, which where we refer to we offered that we would find other ways of dealing with the security situation because indeed that house was attacked a number of times.