Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

MR KOOPEDI: And were you in the same group with Mr Mokoena or were you with the other group?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: I was in the same group with Mr Mokoena and Mokoena is the first applicant.

MR KOOPEDI: You were in the same group with Mokoena.  Mokoena is the first applicant, Mr Chair.
	Now when was the first time you saw the deceased people, the two deceased person, that is on that day, when did you see them, or did you see them at all?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: I saw them at the time when we were in the veld when we were fighting and then I started to see who they were.
	When we arrived there these people dispersed, then these two ran away to the veld.  Steve and Boyki and myself, that's whilst we started to chase them and Steve was in front.  Whilst we were chasing them they jumped the fence.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you started to give chase, did you know whom you were chasing?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: When we started to chase them ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: That is when your group which included the first applicant, when you started to give chase, you personally did you know whom you were chasing or were you just following?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: I knew which people we were chasing ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: Which means you had seen the people you were looking for, you knew that these were the people.  Alright, now we've heard evidence that the chase went through the veld into a mine premises.  Now when you got into the mine premises, could you tell the Commission what happened then and if you could try and restrict yourself to what you did.

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: When we arrived at the mine, those people started fighting.  Comrade Steve and Joel were fighting them.  Bafino drew a knife.  I had a knife with me on my person and when he drew a knife I drew a knife.  I tried to talk to him that: "We are not going to fight you, we are just coming to fetch you so that you can explain to us what happened yesterday".  That is when he drew a knife and started attacking, and that's when I began to stab him.

MR KOOPEDI: Now who is Bafino?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: ...(no English translation)

MR KOOPEDI: That's right.  When the first applicant, Mokoena was involved with KK, you were involved with the other deceased person?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now this is what I think the Honourable Commission has not heard and would like to take you through that.  Now when you got to Bafino inside these mine premises, did you speak to him at all?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Yes, I did.

MR KOOPEDI: What did you say to him?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: I said to him: "Bafino, we are not here to fight ...[inaudible] yesterday in the township".  He said: "We are not going to listen to you" and then he drew a knife and I drew my knife also.
	From there he approached me, he wanted to run away and then I stabbed him on the back of the shoulder.  Gustaff was present at that time.  Then he approached again, then I swerved away.  I could see that this person was fighting and then I stabbed him again.  After I stabbed him he fell on the ground with his knife, then we continued to stab him.

MR KOOPEDI: Now who, other than you and your co-applicant Morupisi, can you remember anyone else who was involved with this deceased?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: The late comrade Tebogo was present.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  What did Tebogo do to the deceased?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: He kicked him.

MR KOOPEDI: Now who else stabbed the deceased?  We're talking about the second deceased.

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: The second deceased?

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, the one that you were involved with.  Other than you, is there anyone else who stabbed him?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: That's comrade Morupisi. ...[no English translation] which was owned by the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Give us that name again, comrade who also stabbed the deceased?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Comrade Morupisi, that is Gustaff.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Other than the two of you, did anyone else stab him?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Is he present, this comrade Morupisi?  Is he present, is one of the applicants or isn't he an applicant?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Yes, he's among us, he is an applicant.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: Applicant number 5?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: What stopped the stabbing on the deceased, what stopped the stabbing and the assault, what made you to stop?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: What made me to stop is when I saw that he was lying on the ground, therefore we stopped stabbing.  That is the reason why we stopped, because he was on the ground.

MR KOOPEDI: What happened thereafter?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Other comrades arrived and saw them lying, then be boarded our kombis and others went on foot because we went to the other kombi which was parked on the other side, then we went back to the township.
	In the evening, as the organisation's secretary, I was supposed to report to the Committee and on Monday we reported to the General Secretary about what happened in Bekkersdal.

MR KOOPEDI: Who is this secretary that you talk about?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: That is Mr Mahuma.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  You have, like you co-applicant, the first applicant, mentioned one Mr Nzeku and Mr Ramagotedi and on a section where you are asked whether any orders were given, now I would like to take you through that.  Were you given any orders by anyone to go and search for these people or even kill them?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: To tell the truth, comrade Nzeku and comrade Ramagotedi never gave us orders, we were given those mandates by the comrades.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now why did you mention their names, why did you refer to them?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: The reason for me to mention those two names is because I wanted them to come and tell the Commission about the situation which prevailed in our area, which affected our youth, the situation which we lived under in our area during that time and as to whether they know about this incident.  That is why I mentioned their names in my application.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now your actions, the ones for which you are applying for amnesty, do you consider that as having been motivated by a political objective?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Yes, they are politically motivated.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you explain why you think this was politically motivated?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: Because this gang, it was not the first time they did those things, to stab people, to rob people and to rape.  Because of those reasons which we stated in there, those were the reasons which influenced us to the extent that we came to a point where we killed those people because they had a gun.

MR KOOPEDI: Now is there anything that you have not told this Honourable Committee, in relation to this matter?  Have you disclosed all the truth in this matter?

MASOBA KHUNTWANA HENDRIK VAN ROOYEN: I haven't left out any bit of the truth about this incident.

MR KOOPEDI: Other than what we have asked you and perhaps what the fist applicant has said, is there anything that you would wish to bring to the attention of this Honourable Committee or say to the Committee?