Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Just before we got to the truck I said to my co-accused he must stand behind the truck. I was going to fetch them myself from the front of the car. I would give him a signal thereafter. I went to the passenger's seat side not the driver's side.

MR BOTMA: Were you having a firearm with you at that point in time?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I did.

MR BOTMA: Was that the .38 special revolver?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: And your co-accused was he armed at that point when you were walking towards this truck?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes he was armed.

MR BOTMA: Was he carrying the home-made shot gun or rifle?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He had the home-made shot gun with him.

MR BOTMA: Can you recall the detail of this home-made shot gun, how big it was?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: (The applicant is demonstrating how long it was. He says that he thinks it was that long.)

CHAIRPERSON: 50 to 60 centimetres.

MR BOTMA: As it pleases Mr Chairman.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: But I am not really sure of the measures, I am estimating.

MR BOTMA: This firearm was a firearm which was used by your cell or by the cadres of APLA is it correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes. APLA used it, we used home-made weapons.

MR BOTMA: And did you use this weapon before or let me ask you, did you handle this weapon before that day?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No. Well it was not mine. I cannot answer. The person who used it perhaps will be able to answer.

MR BOTMA: No I am asking the question because it seems as if you have got a lot of detail when looking at firearms because you can now after five years recall a firearm, small detail of this firearm. That is why I am asking the question. Did you have a look at this shot gun being carried by your co-accused?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He was very good at making arms. I help him, I spent a lot of time with him. It would be easy for me to remember it.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was very good at making weapons?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: My co-accused.

MR LAX: Is that Zama?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: The other applicant in this matter, Mr Thutha?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: How was he carrying this firearm, this shot gun from the point where Thanduxolo dropped you until the point that you were reaching the truck of Mike Meyers?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He was hiding it. He had put it in a sack of potatoes. I think he had put it in a sack of potatoes. That is how he had hidden it.

MR BOTMA: Now the object of your whole operation was to capture Mike Meyers but you went to the passenger's side. Can you explain to the Commission why?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: First of all the aim for the operation was to take Mike. Unfortunately on that day there was the daughter as well. I then thought that I should start from the passenger seat side. I knew that the father could not leave the daughter behind alone in the truck. I had deployed my co-accused such that he would safe guard the driver's side as well. He would stand behind the truck on the right hand side. I then would go and approach them. The reason why I went on the side of the passenger is that I had deployed some one already to watch the right hand side of the car. I hope it is clarified.

MR BOTMA: Mr Chairman I am looking at the time. Is it a convenient time maybe to take adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the adjournment for the mid day now. We hope to resume at a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: That is the post mortem report H and the insignia J.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I am ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we continue then?

MR BOTMA: Thank you Mr Chairman. I presume that the witness has been reminded of his previous oath (...indistinct)?

MR LAX: We remind you that you are still under oath Mr Kulman?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: (s.u.o.)

MR BOTMA: Mr Kulman I believe that in the meantime that your legal representative has gone through with you of the copies of the court record made available. Specifically page 63 of that record. Is that correct?

MR LAX: Sorry you must talk. Your nod does not get picked up on the machine unfortunately.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Okay.

MR BOTMA: You confirm it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: Now I want to read to you from this record, I want to refer you to this record. If you look down at line, let's start about line 10 starting from your counsel there stating as follows, actually line 8.
"My Lord then as indicated yesterday (...indistinct) relating to the amendment it will be evidenced later that explaining this that at the time that the accused initially pleaded during February of this year there were certain constraints upon them relating to the divulgence of the organisation to which they belong and the activity that they were involved in. For political reasons and it was for this reason that the initial statement was given. And My Lord will realise that it was complete lack of knowledge of any of the offences or applications against them. A complete denial and an alibi and My Lord will note from the amended statements made from the plea that - and then the rest is audible. The reason for this My Lord is that since February till now there has been a drastic change in the whole political set up. Particularly in relation to the Azanian People Liberation Army of which the accused are members. And they have now acknowledged this fact and explained in their plea that what they were doing on the day in question was taking part in an operation for the furtherance of their objective. And they consulted with higher authority and in the circumstance I personally have accepted reason for the difference in the pleas."
	The question I would like to put to you now is that do you agree with this, what was said by your counsel at that point in time?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I do agree with it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I just establish something? Do the interpreters have a copy of this?
(Yes we do, thank you.)

MR BOTMA: Thank you. Now the initial plea that you gave was a complete denial and an alibi is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: And then because of the change of the political set up from the time of the initial plea till this time, that was now 19 July 1994 you decided to take the Court into, in other words to tell, to divulge the whole set up to the Court there and your involvement in this political organisation?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes. That is correct.

MR BOTMA: Now did you at that stage accept the presiding officer as a judge and the Court as being a competent Court?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: At the time I did not recognise the judge, the Court as a whole.

MR BOTMA: And the reason for that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Because they were oppressors. It is the very same people that I was fighting. They are the same people that were going to sentence me. They were not going to understand the cause that I was about. They were not going to look at the case from my perspective. They were going to just see it as I killing their brother. This is why I did not respect the Court. Africans did not take part in the law of South Africa until Madiba was president. This is then that black South Africans could have a contribution to the affairs of our country. We did not take part in the laws that were constituted by the previous government. This is why I did not recognise him as a judge. I just saw him as another Boer.

MR BOTMA: And did that include your counsel as well?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Muller?

MR BOTMA: That is correct, your counsel at that time?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes if you understood the situation, we did not trust Muller. I looked at the case I was never informed that I was going to be represented by Muller. Muller was just sent to me. I could not assist him in the case. He perceived that, that I am not willing to cooperate with him.