Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR MALINDI: After her disappearance, the evidence of Jantjie is that you had no information about her whereabouts.  After that call that she made about Lusaka, you had no other information from other informers about her whereabouts or the whereabouts of the other members of her cell?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, we didn't have any further information about them.

MR MALINDI: You see what I would like to suggest is, if they were indeed taken back to Lesotho, the chances are that Lesotho flooded with about 20 informers handled from Ladybrand, you would have received some information that "after Betty Boom had disappeared for a week, we have sighted her at a taxi rank or at her house", or something like that.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't know, Chairperson, if these people knew that Betty Boom had disappeared for a week in the first place.

MR MALINDI: Well I'm saying if your informers were jacked up, they were competent informers, they would have noticed that Betty Boom has disappeared for a week.  They would have said: "Betty Boom disappeared for a week, we've sighted her now after a week".  You would have received such information at least.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It could have been so and it could not have been so, I'm not in a position to answer that question.

MR MALINDI: And after Xmas, up to the time that she phoned about Lusaka, one would have expected that some informers would have given you information about her, where she was and so on, because that was the routine, that your section was getting information consistently about her and her cell.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We could have possibly got information about her, I can't remember.

MR MALINDI: Well what I'm suggesting is that you didn't get anything from the day that you abducted her and other members of her cell and KK, because they were never returned to Lesotho.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I was told by W/O Jagga and by W/O Jantjie, that they were returned to Lesotho.  So as far as I'm concerned, they were returned to Lesotho.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify this?
	You yourself have no knowledge personally, other than what's been told to you, that they were taken back to Lesotho?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I wasn't present when they were taken back, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Because I mean just hypothetically, if Jagga and Jantjie went off and did something awful to these people without telling you, you would just be labouring under the same misapprehension as anyone else?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, just at this juncture I wonder if it's an opportune moment, I have promised the Translators that we'll take a break at three thirty.  I apologise not having informed you before.  We'll take a break at this juncture and come back at quarter to four.

MR MALINDI: We can do so, Judge, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, you may proceed.

MR MALINDI: (cont)
	Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Robertshaw, when you were part of the team fetching Tax - you were part of that team, isn't it?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: You heard Mr Thulo say that Tax seemed as if, or looked as if he wanted to run away before Jantjie called to him and told him that no, you guys have been sent by Betty Boom.  Did he actually run away, or how did he behave?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I can't recall.  I didn't even really know what Tax looked like, I can't recall anybody trying to run away.

MR MALINDI: But when you arrived at the spot where you had to pick him up, did you see him immediately, or at what stage did you see him?  Did you see him walking towards the car or did you see him waiting, what was the position?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I saw him when Jantjie approached him, that's when I realised that was the person we had to come and pick up.

MR MALINDI: And was he showing his back to Jantjie, or were they facing each other, speaking.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: They spoke.  I can't remember if he was showing his back to him, those details I can't remember, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just interpose?
	Did Jantjie get out of the vehicle and go up to him?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, to my recollection he got out of the vehicle.

MR LAX: Please carry on.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps just to complete it, when he got out he went up to him?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, that's how I recall it, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Could you please turn to page 15H of the bundle.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I'm at page 15H, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Will you look at that page.  At paragraph 37, which reads
"A day or so later we received information regarding another trained MK member in Roma, Lesotho, one Mbulelo Ngono, also known as KK.  We were placed in possession of an address in Roma where, according to our information, KK was living with his girlfriend."
Before KK was abducted from Lesotho, did you know that he was staying with a girlfriend?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I didn't know that, no, not personally Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: But were you so informed by the section that intended, that you gave instructions to recruit him or fetch him?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: What I remember, Chairperson, is that he was residing in Roma.  It could have been that he was residing with his girlfriend in Roma, I'm not doing to dispute it at all.

MR MALINDI: So in other words you don't know those details?  If anyone were to come here and say he actually had his own place where he stayed but on this particular day he was at his girlfriend's place where he was arrested, you wouldn't know?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I wouldn't know, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: There's a person who has made a statement which appears in the bundle, Hatiso Kadi, do you know this person?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I know the person, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And this person was recruited as an informer by the Ladybrand Special Branch.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's incorrect, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And ...(intervention)

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I'm sorry Chairperson, I don't know if you heard I said that's incorrect.

CHAIRPERSON: I did, I don't know if Mr Malindi did.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I didn't hear that.

MR LAX: He said that's not correct, he said it's incorrect.  In other words that the man was an informer.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I ...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, it's not what I said, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: No, Chairperson, he said "of Ladybrand Security Police".

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	How do you know this person?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I saw him, he was an askari.  Hatiso Kadi was an askari and he often came to Ladybrand.

MR MALINDI: And what was his role in Ladybrand?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: To help people identify MK people, to help with information.

MR MALINDI: And when he was doing that in Ladybrand, was he doing it under your section?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: He worked sometimes with my section.  They fell under Bloemfontein, they had their people that were in charge of them in Bloemfontein.  They would sometimes visit Ladybrand as well.

MR MALINDI: And in Bloemfontein, was that another intelligence gathering unit or ...