Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman, they are in the application.

MR MALAN: Yes.  And did you form any opinion as to the availability of the lime?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Personally no, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: You can't tell us whether you think even at this stage, whether lime was kept for such occasions or whether it was specifically bought?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I never ever saw lime laying around, I was just handed it on the occasion.  I never saw packets of lime.

MR MALAN: And you have no idea where Taylor got the lime from?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How big were the packets that you were given?  You weren't given a bag of lime, you were given a small packet, not a 50 kg pocket?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, a small packet which you would tear the top off and sprinkle.

MR MALAN: Pre-packed pack?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, a small packet sir.

MR MALAN: Yes, but was it pre-packed by the distributor, the manufacturer or whoever would have distributed it?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.  It was in, it looked like the commercial packaging.

MR MALAN: Commercial packaging?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes sir.

MR MALAN: The other issue that I just want to further pursue is, you gave evidence last week about the elimination of Bhila and your simply being present at the time, that at some later stage you became aware that he was to be eliminated?  Is that correct?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Taylor told me at a later stage, yes.

MR MALAN: In this, it really relates to the same question, a group of people involved, I find it extremely difficult to look at the applicants as you have referred to them, as the only people within the so-called inner circle for want of a better word, that you never discussed these incidents with each other, that you wouldn't ask questions, even as to where was the person killed, how was he killed, was he buried or not, where was he buried.  You heard the evidence, and this is the line of evidence, that you never spoke of it?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that is correct.  In this kind of job, nobody ever would speak out, it would stay where it was, that is where it was.  There was a code of ethics that one wouldn't ask and one wouldn't say.

MR MALAN: Not even amongst co-perpetrators, people planning together, deciding together to kill a person?  You wouldn't ask questions of each other?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, if that portion was yours to do, then that was done, and it was left at that Mr Chairman.  It was left at that.

MR MALAN: Was there ever such an instruction not to ask questions, not to talk?  Did that code of ethic if one could call it such, simply develop out of the blue, did it just dawn upon you or was it agreed, did Taylor or someone tell you listen, no one asks questions, no one speaks?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I am unable if there was a person specifically there, but it was very evident amongst us all that such a code was there, but nobody specifically ever told me that is how it is.
	It just comes in the Special Branch type of activity.

MR MALAN: So, as far as Port Natal is concerned, your involvement with Bhila, was that an induction in a sense, an initiation with the group or not so?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, not so Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: When did you become aware of this code of ethics of not speaking and not asking and not reporting?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I already knew of that in my previous service Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Which was where?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: In the Rhodesian setup Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: So you had similar experiences there, is that what you are telling us?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, not at all Mr Chairman, but in war and in operations, one learns that this ethic is there.

MR MALAN: Not even to discuss with people who went out on the same mission with you?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the details weren't discussed, the result would have been.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: May I add something Mr Chairman.  May I add on the question of the lime.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think we were going to talk about the same thing, page 444?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't been told yet, when the body was exhumed, a yellow plastic bag, dolomite agricultural lime, 10 kg was around both feet.  Would that be about the size of the bags that you were given?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is the size Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will adjourn now until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

MR VISSER: Can this witness be excused Mr Chairman?  As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS