Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

ADV MEMANI: I said did he not make arrangements to have Mr Ngo transferred to Ladybrand?

CHAIRPERSON: After something.

ADV MEMANI: After Ngo was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

ADV MEMANI: Did you not, together with Erasmus, make arrangements for the safety of Ngo after he was attacked?

MR SHAW: No, I didn't.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Shaw, I just want to read a letter contained in bundle B, page 83, written by Ngo which says
"Application for salary adjustment from standard eight scale to standard ten scale Since 1986.02.10 I have been a member of theforce.  I was appointed with a standard eight certificate.  In 1986.01.01 I however passed my matric. I hereby apply for an adjustment in my salary.  A copy of my standard ten certificate is hereby attached"

CHAIRPERSON: Is that letter correct Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: And I will also wish to refer you then to answer the Chairperson's question to page 63 of bundle B.  This is a letter which is  signed by a lieutenant C. Smith who was I think the divisional commander and it says
"transfer for safety reasons, number S085H Ngo"

INTERPRETER: The interpreter's couldn't get the name.
"from the uniform branch to Batu station as indicated".
Paragraph five:
"This member"
paragraph one:
"This member, on 86.02.10 joined the force and has since been on the staff register of Batu.  This office temporarily employed him in consultation with the district commander"
[if the interpreter could hear correctly] 
Do you agree with the contents of that letter?
[Transcriber's own translation]

MR SHAW: Is that the one on page 63?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

MR SHAW: I agree with that, it's the one on page sixty three.  Yes, I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we go back to 83 and you can perhaps answer my question.  He says he joined the force on the 10th of February 1986 and was appointed with a standard eight certificate.  He then says that on the 1st of January 1986 he passed his matric, is that correct?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Mr Chair, it fits with all the evidence that's been led so far.

CHAIRPERSON: So he passed matric before he joined the police force when he was appointed on a standard eight certificate?

ADV MEMANI: It is so Mr Chair, that he passed - I would say that he passed matric on the 1st of January, the certificate would be issued and be valid as from the 1st of January but it may be that at the time when he was actually employed the certificate was not available.  And at that date the certificate was now available and he was being employed on the basis of his standard ten certificate.

CHAIRPERSON: On his standard eight certificate?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say he had passed matric by the 1st of January 1986?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Mr Chair.
	It would follow therefore that Mr Ngo was employed not in March but in February and even the divisional commander accepted him as being employed as from February 1986?

MR VISSER: If I have any guilt in this Mr Chairman, there's no conflict on the evidence, there's no issue about the fact that he was attested on the 10th of February.
	 I think what my learned friend refers to is at one stage when you asked me for certain dates I gave you dates off the top of my head and I may have said at the time that he was attested on the 11th of March, if I said so I'm not sure that I did, but if I did say so I'm wrong but the date is the 10th February when he was attested.  
	And there's no issue about the fact that he became a student constable at on that date but what did happen is that he was in Batu for a month and he was transferred to Bloemfontein on the 11th of March 1986.  So if I contributed to the confusion I do apologise Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: I think that you are continuing to contribute because this witness has just said that although Ngo was registered with Batu he in fact reported at security offices in Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: No, that's not what the witness said Mr Chairman, that's why that's why I started speaking.  The witness said he doesn't have any problem with this letter.  The question is: "What does the letter mean"?
The letter doesn't say that he was employed from the tenth of February in Bloemfontein it doesn't say that.

ADV MEMANI: This was the evidence of Mr Shaw before the tea adjournment.  I specifically put that to him and he said it was correct.

MR VISSER: Mr. Chairman that problem can be solved with reference to page 65 of bundle B.  That's his service register and all the facts will appear from that document Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, what does he want us to look at and see there.  He must refer us to what his his referring us there.

ADV DE JAGER: Is it relevant whether he was appointed in February or March?   The letter also states that while he was at Batu he was employed in Bloemfontein police station.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] I correct my brother there, it wasn't Bloemfontein police station, it was the security police in Bloemfontein.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, in Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: Are you addressing the question to me Mr Chair?

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.

ADV MEMANI: Well, there is a difference here Mr Chair.  You would have been made to believe that Mr Ngo was not associated with the security branch until the 11th of March when he was attested as a student constable and I'm saying that from this correspondence he was already a member on the 10th of February 1986. It is contrary to what has been put to all of us before.

ADV DE JAGER: As far as the witness said in his evidence, he said he had been employed as a student constable and then he went to college and after he became a constable, he had no rank before he attended the college.

ADV MEMANI: And what I'm saying is that this correspondence dated the 10th of - this correspondence says that as at the 10th of February '86 he was a member.  And it is different from what he is saying that he became a member only after the 11th of March.

ADV DE JAGER: I understood him to say he was a student constable and he's been accepted into the police before he went to the college.  He may have been a member with a a lower status, that's all but I think its common cause that he'd been employed and he received a salary before he went to the college.

ADV MEMANI: But all along Mr Chair we have been told, including yourself, that Mr Ngo only became a member on the 11th of March 1986 as a student constable and that ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: he became a member a month earlier according to the correspondence.

ADV MEMANI: That is that is my point.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] conceded that the letter is correct so ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: I'm sure that the person who gave rise to difficulties was not myself but Mr Visser.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser has said that he gave the wrong date, he's apologised for that fact.

ADV MEMANI: And so why am I being asked all these questions?

CHAIRPERSON: We are being asked what is the relevance, can't we just go on with it?  Does it really matter whether he joined the police force in February or March.

ADV MEMANI: I'm sure it was not purpose of Mr de Jager when he asked me the questions Mr Mr Chairman. However Mr. Chairman, it's relevant in that it tends to show that the members of the security branch are trying to minimise their involvement with Ngo.
	So you agree that Mr Ngo became a member on the 10th of February 1986?

MR SHAW: Yes, I agree.  That's according to to the correspondence which states that.

ADV MEMANI: And do you also agree that Mr Ngo was employed with you assistance?

MR SHAW: No, I do not agree with that.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that you actually took him to ...[inaudible] police station where you assisted with the completion of the application form.

MR SHAW: No, I deny that.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know a Mr Shedile?

MR SHAW: Is he a member of the police force?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.