Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Madame, I am not asking you how much milk you put into your tea or how much sugar, I am asking you because you were present with Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis on Saturday morning and you got the news from your son that Mr Hani had been murdered.  Now I want to - and you knew that he had been shot dead - and you knew that your husband had given Mr Derby-Lewis a firearm.  If the police asked you whether or not you knew anything about the gun given by your husband to Mr Derby-Lewis, what was your answer?

MR PRINSLOO: To what are you referring now?  The witness says that the police were there at various instances.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, although the police were there at various instances it's been put - were you told or asked by the police whether you knew that the gun that your husband had given to Derby-Lewis had anything to do with the incident that occurred on the 10th March?

GEORGE BIZOS: April, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: 10th April.

MAUREEN VENTER: No, no such a question was posed to me, definitely not as far as I can recall.  They could have asked whether I knew my husband had an illegal firearm, I would have said yes, but nothing more than that.

GEORGE BIZOS: And would you have gone further and said that the illegally held firearm that my husband had was handed over to Mr Derby-Lewis?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well did or did not the police at any stage ask you whether that was so?

MAUREEN VENTER: If they had asked me whether my husband had given this firearm to Mr Derby-Lewis, I would have said yes.

MR MALENDI: Sorry, Mr Bizos, may I ask, I know the question was at any time, but I'm going to ask you whether, particularly after the arrest of Mr Derby-Lewis, the police did not ask you about any knowledge of the firearm?

MAUREEN VENTER: After Mr Clive Derby-Lewis' arrest, I had nothing to do with the police, so I have to say no, I have to answer no to that question.

MR MALENDI: Do I understand you're saying that they did not ask you?

MAUREEN VENTER: After Mr Clive Derby-Lewis' arrest, I had nothing to do further more with the police and no questions were asked by the police at that stage.

MR MALENDI: Thank you.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm going to put to you that the answer that you gave the Honourable Judge is false because we all know that Mr Derby-Lewis was arrested on the 17th April and your statement was made after that, on the 22nd of April, therefore your answer was false.

MAUREEN VENTER: My answer is not false, but I wanted to reiterate, I don't know whether you can't understand me clearly but I want to repeat that after Mr Clive Derby-Lewis had been arrested, I had no contact whatsoever with the police.  I can put it on record that after they had arrested my husband, I had something to do with the police.

GEORGE BIZOS: I understand you very well and the answer that you have given about your husband's arrest.  Was your husband arrested before or after Mr Derby-Lewis was arrested?

MAUREEN VENTER: It was after Mr Derby-Lewis was arrested.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well then, your answer to the learned Judge that you had nothing to do with the police after Mr Derby-Lewis' arrest was wrong for two reasons.  Firstly because Mr Derby-Lewis was arrested on the 17th and your husband was arrested after him.  Therefore, on your own admission now, you did have something to do with the police after the arrest of Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, the witness had never said that she knew that Mr Derby-Lewis was arrested on the 17th April.

MAUREEN VENTER: I've understood the question wrong but I've said after Mr Derby-Lewis had been arrested I had nothing to do with the police but, after my husband had been arrested, which was after Derby Lewis's arrest, I had something to do with the police.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: May I appeal to counsel for the applicant, Mr Chairman, to allow the witness to answer the questions rather than interject on fairly - I'll say nothing more, but I will appreciate it if there are proper objections, are made and not partial answers given - but I'll proceed Mr Chairman.
Was Mr Derby-Lewis' arrest given the widest possible publicity with the banner headlines that one of the leaders of the Conservative party had been arrested for the murder of Mr Hani?

MAUREEN VENTER: Is that a question?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MAUREEN VENTER: Are you asking me whether wide publicity was given to that?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you became aware of Mr Derby Lewis's arrest on the very day that he was arrested - it was not only in the newspapers, it was on television and it was on the radio?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, therefore you knew on the day that Mr Derby-Lewis was arrested that he had been arrested?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Therefore, when you said to the learned Judge that after Mr Derby-Lewis' arrest you had nothing to do with police, can't be correct if you made a written statement under oath on the 22nd April 1993?

MAUREEN VENTER: That was the date when my husband was arrested and this is relevant to my husband's arrest.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I think I've asked you enough from this point in order to show that you do not particularly care what you say and that you try to amend your evidence as soon as you are confronted with evidence to the contrary, Madame.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, just to be fair to the witness, she had nothing to do with the police as far as she's concerned in connection with the arrest of Derby-Lewis.  If her husband had not been arrested, she may not have had anything to do with the police.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I'll carry it further with the knowledge that I have in order to clarify that point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please do.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you questioned by the police as to what happened on the Saturday morning and did they take a statement from you about what you said happened on the Saturday morning?

MAUREEN VENTER: I can definitely remember that the police questioned me and I can remember that I answered all their questions.  Whether I've made a written statement, I can't remember.  It was not so important for me.  I know that in all honesty I told them what had happened, more I could not do.  I can't, in all honesty - I can't remember.  I can't remember whether I've made a written statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well we will deal with that a little later but if you were asked and a statement was taken from you about the Saturday morning meeting it would have been about Mr Derby-Lewis' arrest?  No, I beg your pardon -  ...[inaudible] in relation to Mr Hani's death?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that in so far as you may have said, that you were never questioned about Mr Derby-Lewis after his arrest, if the statement shows the contrary, then you were wrong on that as well?

MAUREEN VENTER: I just wanted to say that directly after Mr Lewis' arrest, I was never approached by any police and I want to tell you once again, that the police made contact with me after my husband's arrest and I want to state it very clearly, that is what happened, that is how I experienced it and that is the reality.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] the effect that Mr Hani had been murdered?

MAUREEN VENTER: If I have to give you an accurate time, I can't give that because I did not look at my watch specifically because at that stage I was having discussions.  If I could take a guess - I would say it was more or less quarter past eleven, half past eleven or even later, I'm not sure.  The time was not important.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did your son found it important to telephone you to tell you that Mr Hani had been murdered as soon as he heard it on the radio?

MAUREEN VENTER: I would think that he would have phoned me because it was world news.

GEORGE BIZOS: And any other reason?