Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was not sleeping at that house.

MR D TSEMANE: Where was he sleeping?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know where he was sleeping.

MR D TSEMANE: Did he frequently come to the house?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At some other times he'll come.

MR D TSEMANE: Thank you.

MR L TSEMANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am Leshonolo from the Tsemane family.  I just want to know from the applicant who exactly was the owner of that house, because he claims that that owner frequently came to see him, and definitely you cannot stay with someone who doesn't, who you do not know.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: To be of help to you, I take it you understand, you know where Jozanna is.  Do you?

MR L TSEMANE: Yes I do.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Do you know the school there at Jozanna?

MR L TSEMANE: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The High School which is there at Jozanna?

MR L TSEMANE: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The house I am talking about, it's next to the, to the
school, it occupies the corner.

MR L TSEMANE: Do you mind disclosing the name please, of the owner.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know the name of the person, the owner of the house.

MR L TSEMANE: I suppose you were taken there by some people.  Possibly people who are based in Sterkspruit.   Can you tell us who they were, or who they are?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Repeat the question.

MR L TSEMANE: I am sure, like you said, you only came to the Sterkspruit at around July 1992.  That means, well then it means that you did not know the area.  So definitely someone must have taken you up to Jozanna.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR L TSEMANE: To the area as it were, the area in question.  Do you mind telling us who actually showed you to the place?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, it was Phila.

MR L TSEMANE: Is, okay, is Phila, where does he stay?  Is he from around?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: You mean now?

MR L TSEMANE: Is he a person from Sterkspruit, that's my question?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was also an APLA Cadre.

MR L TSEMANE: And you say, you said initially, you do not know his real name.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The other name I gave the house, was of Pawa.

MR L TSEMANE: Pawa, okay.  And you are saying you were sent by Sebelo Palma and Mphahlele.  I'm sure they do not know the place, I mean they don't know Sterkspruit.  Some people might have identified places for you.  People who took you around to show these are target places and things like those.  Can't, won't it be fair for you to please tell us who those people were?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I, in my affidavits, I mentioned that I was the Commander in charge of the operations and the intelligence work in charge in collecting information about the targets that have to be attacked, and the people who were involved in that were those who were my subordinates.

MR L TSEMANE: Who are understandably also not from Sterkspruit.  You mean, I mean the people you were together with are not from the area, from Sterkspruit as it were.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Some I find them there, some knew the area more that I.

MR L TSEMANE: Thank you.  My second last question, how do you feel, what do you say after having, after having killed my father, to be exact?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It worried me a lot.  I ...(intervention)

MR L TSEMANE: I'm asking this question because you are some kind, you displayed some kind of pride in all you were doing, you didn't look like a person who was exactly coming to ask for amnesty.  Instead you were proud here, not feeling sorry for all the filthy things, deeds or acts you did.  Thank you.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I cam here to talk about what happened and to give the house what happened.  The truth about it.

MR L TSEMANE: Thanks, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Mr Dolo, did you say a moment ago, the owner of this house was not aware of what you gentlemen ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was not reporting, I was not reporting to him.

MR PRIOR: Well, because you were not reporting to him doesn't mean he wasn't aware of what you were doing.  That's a very big, there's a huge difference in meaning, if you hear me?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was aware that we are APLA cadres.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Dolo, you said you were under the impression that the, the vehicle picking up the people, was a taxi.  Did you make that impression at that time as that the vehicle was picking up the people?  The vehicle which has stopped to pick up the lady there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I'm not sure.  Maybe at that stage or after that.  I'm not sure.

ADV SANDI: Right.  I, may I ask you, may I put it to you that normally taxi's are owned by black people.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was not a taxi as normally known as a taxi.

ADV SANDI: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As it was a small car.

ADV SANDI: But I understood you saying the fact that it was picking up those people, you were under the impression that it was a taxi.  Then, my question is normally taxi's are driven by black people.  Would you agree with me?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I will agree with you.

ADV SANDI: Therefore you would be, you would know that the person driving that, the vehicle was a black person, an African, to use your word.  What do you say about that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At that stage I was not aware that it was an African, but normally taxi's are driven by African people.  The big ones, the Kombi, taxi's.

ADV SANDI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: These, these ladies that you stopped in this vehicle, that you then "borrowed" as you put it, did you not tell them that you were part of APLA, and that you were borrowing their vehicle as part of your operation?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't recall what I said in relation to that that I
was an APLA cadre.

MR PRIOR: You see, we've from countless other people who are members of APLA, who all say that when they took things from African people, they tried to make them understand what they were doing and why they needed the vehicle.  They said it was common practice to tell those people that "don't worry, we're part of APLA, we're not going to destroy your vehicle.  You will get it back".  They would even try and get phone numbers and arrange to leave it with them, and tell them where they would leave it.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I might have said so, because I promised her that they would find their car.

MR PRIOR: Where did you tell them they would find their car?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Where, you mean where they would find their car?

MR PRIOR: Yes, at what place would they have found their car?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At Sterkspruit.  I didn't specify where specifically.

MR PRIOR: Well, it's quite a big area.  Where, surely you ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It's not so big, Sterkspruit.  It's a small town, Sterkspruit.

MR PRIOR: Oh, in the town.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, I don't specifically mean the town. I mean the whole area of Sterkspruit, it's not so big.

MR PRIOR: Well it's about 40/50 km2 at least.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That is not a big thing, 40.

MR PRIOR: How would someone know where to find their vehicle in that area if you left it in a forest or you left it somewhere else?  How would she know where to find it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It's a take them, those people to be very concerned about their neighbours and they will report whatever happened in their neighbours.  So, if I left the car maybe next to any house, they found that there are not occupants inside the house.  Then the authorities next to them would be notified about that, and in that way they will receive their car.

MR PRIOR: Now, you never actually got to Sterkspruit, you ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The car was ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: The car ran, the car ran out of petrol along the way.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We never reached the town of Sterkspruit.