Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: No, the attack was on the 10th of February, it can't be the 8th of January for instance, from what you have told us, it can't be, nor can it be the 8th of March, because the operation had been executed by then, so we are left with one month simple, it should be the 8th of February, don't say it can be, it cannot be, it must be.  I did arithmetic at school, that's why it's so simple for me.

MR LEBEA: I personally, I went there for the last time on the 8th.

CHAIRPERSON: What I'm asking from you is a month.

MR LEBEA: On the 8th of February.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Lebea.  Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, let me start with the dates.  You were questioned by the members of the Committee and you indicated that on the 15th of January, the target was identified by Themba Ncapai and he told you about
the target.  Can you explain, at that time had you already undergone the crash course?

MR LEBEA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Had the other members of the unit undergone the crash course?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Before the 15th of January?

MR LEBEA: No, Chairperson.  It's a week after the 15th of January.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, sorry Mr Mbandazayo.  I hear you say to the applicant he considered the 15th ...(indistinct), you say the target was identified on the 15th?  I thought he said the 15th January is the day he is told by Themba Ncapai that he has identified this target and he does not know when he identified it.  That's the day he comes and tells him that that is the target I have identified, but surely the identification of the target must have occurred before the 15th.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members.  Exactly, that is what I was trying to say, that on the 15th it was the day the target was identified to him by Themba Ncapai.  Thank you Chairperson.  Now yourself, by the 15th of January, you were already given a crash course?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But the other members of your unit were not already given a crash course.

MR LEBEA: That is correct Chairperson, they received the crash course a week after the 15th.

MR MBANDAZAYO: After the 15th?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.  That is a week after the 15th.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I think I'm getting more confused.  I must be honest to you.  The question you are traversing, I asked it and I want to cover it in this respect.  I asked the applicant:  "Did you receive a crash course that lasted for three days?"  He said yes and then he said the others received a crash course when I was with them, that is the last time after the weaponry, the day the weaponry was delivered and then I said:  "You received your crash course on two occasions", that's the question I posed and the answer is not coming near to what you are now eliciting from him.  Please go around that way to ask that re-exam.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Lebea can you tell the Committee before the others received their crash course, let me put it this way first as it was put by the Committee.  How many days did it take, your crash course?

MR LEBEA: It took 3 days.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were all those three days before the 15th of January?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson, it was before the 15th of January.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it your answer?  Are you sure about that answer, that all three days were before that 15th of January, are you sure about that?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.  I mean that is the course I attended alone.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now did you undergo any other crash course subsequent to - after the 15th of January?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.  It was when I was together with my fellow combatants.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How long that one did it last?

MR LEBEA: It was a 1 day crash course.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is there any other crash course that you took other than that one?  Did you undergo any other one?

MR LEBEA: No Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will then I be correct to say that you yourself you undergo crash course at least for 4 days, including the 3 days you were alone plus the 1 you underwent when you had your comrades, your unit, with your unit?

MR LEBEA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you be able to tell the Committee just to explain how long was it before the attack on the farm that the crash course did take place?

MR LEBEA: It would be approximately 20 to 26 days.  It will be approximately 20 days.  I would say approximately 15 days to 20 days.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Would I be correct if I say that this crash course did take place specifically in preparation for this attack?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And according to you, it was the first time that the members of your unit came across Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: Namely Donosi and Samuel Mokweti.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let me pass and come exactly again, it was asked many times, I've come exactly to the order.  Can you again exactly tell the Committee what was the specific order that you were given by Themba Ncapai?  Let me tell you what.  Was the order specifically that you go to the farm and repossess whatever you can get or was the order to go and attack the people who were in the farm and repossess whatever you can get, or was the order that you go and kill the people who are in the farm and repossess?

MR LEBEA: The order was to repossess and when you repossess, you would not do that easily.  You'll do all attempts in the sense that you will attack and at the same time you will repossess.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, with respect, I don't you have clarified my confusion.  I'm still coming to the explanation, what I want is that I've given you three scenarios.  The other one is to go and repossess.  Of course we know that sometimes when you go to repossess, it does not necessarily mean that you are going to use force.  You can threaten people without actually using force and you get what you want, that's what the first one I mentioned.  To go and repossess you can threaten people and if they don't resist, then you get what you want.  The second one is that ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Or they may even not be there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Of course, thank you Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm indebted to the Member of the Committee.  Or as the Member of the Committee, you can go there and you find that there is nobody and you get what you want without using force, anything and you repossess.  Then the second one is that you may go there to go and repossess, but you also, instruction that you assault or you attack those people or whatever as you put it, to teach them a lesson, you know, whatever, to drive whatever point you want to drive across.  The third scenario I put to you was that you are given a specific order:  "You go and kill those people and repossess".  Now I'm asking which one was given to you by Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: As I already explained, it was to repossess and attack.  In regard to killing, that would be determined by the situation but as I've already explained.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Now what was the purpose?  Why - did you ask why he's saying  "Go and attack those people"?  Did you want an explanation, what does it mean when he said:  "Go and attack"?  In what sense?

MR LEBEA: You'd not question an order or you'd not ask questions if you were given an order.  The main thing was that we should go there, attack and repossess.  As to whether a person would die or be killed, the situation would depend or dictate.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It may have, the order may have been that one which says:  "Go and attack", that you go and kill those people, because attack may entail even killing the people.

MR LEBEA: Pardon?