Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Berg, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR VAN DER BERG: No, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hendrickse?

MR HENDRICKSE: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HENDRICKSE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Terreblanche?

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	 I would like to ask in all modesty, you described an atmosphere of war but at that specific place where journalists and ladies and security officials and policemen, a dead man and few that were lying there, was it also a war situation there?  Was there a danger of war or was the war over?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: There was no active conflict at that time but I think the, and as I say it seemed to be under police control but there was a general atmosphere in the area of great tension.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I understand, but did you feel threatened by the three men that were lying there, could they continue this war, according to you?  Could they injure someone?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: No, they were subdued.  I didn't feel threatened until the next lot of shooting broke out.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TERREBLANCHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Peter, would you - given the scenario, would you describe what was happening and ascribe it to a political disturbance or upheaval of any sort?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: Sorry, could you repeat that or rephrase it?

UNKNOWN: Ja.  Given the scenario, you said it was tense, it was a state of war, would you ascribe this to any political upheaval?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: Well the whole situation derived from the general unrest against the Bop Government and that had its own level of tension but it was enormously increased once these roving bands of armed men in bakkies arrived.  As I said, there had been shootings in the area and we'd been told of, for instance we'd been told of journalists who had been stopped by them and had their equipment taken from them, and we ourselves were chased away several times at gunpoint when we encountered these people.  That they were the people who were causing the tension in the area at that point.

UNKNOWN: This general unrest you refer to, do you know what the cause was?

PETER DOMINIQUE DE IONNE: We went there because of the strikes at the Bop Broadcasting which developed into the rioting at the university and the conflict with the police there, and my understanding of the cause of that was that it was a protest against the Mangope regime's refusal to allow people to register to vote for the coming elections.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr de Ionne, you may stand down.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
RECALL OF ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Menyatsoe, I remind you that you are still under your former oath.  We can now proceed with your evidence.
	Mr van der Berg?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: (s.u.o.)

MR VAN DER BERG: (continued)  As it pleases you, Chairperson.   As I've already indicated, I'd now like to request that we look at this video.  It's a very short video, it's only concerned with the shooting incident which took place.
	At this stage I also pertinently want to focus the Committee's attention to the last bit of the shooting incident.  We'll specifically look at Mr Uys's left hand and how it dropped and we're going to argue this point.  His hands were in the air.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.  We'll look at the hands of all the people.
SHOWING OF VIDEO

CHAIRPERSON: We have again seen a short extract from the same video that we saw yesterday and that extract relating to the actual shooting that took place.

MR VAN DER BERG: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Menyatsoe, did you see now on this video that Mr Uys's hand, did you see it dropped to the front?  Did you see that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: As I've already explained, I did not see who had raised hands.  I do not remember who is this person who actually made the movement.  I've already explained to you before teatime.

MR VAN DER BERG: Chairperson, I'm not going to argue this, I'm not to take it any further.
	Mr Menyatsoe, you also made a statement to the Tebbutt Commission.  You were legally represented there.  You also saw the lawyers for human rights and you spoke with them and you also applied for amnesty and you were also legally represented here.  There are certain discrepancies I want to put to you and I'd like you to explain them to us.  In your evidence in chief you've said that you fired a warning shot, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That's correct.

MR VAN DER BERG: Nowhere in your statement Sir, did you make mention of a warning shot?  Do you have any comment on that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I'll constantly remind you that you cannot recall everything that happened at that time and moreover, given the situation that was prevailing in Bophuthatswana at that time.  Thus you cannot recall details minute by minute and some of the details actually emanate when questions are being asked.  I told you the example that you cannot recall as to what happened to you when you were 19 years of age.  At that time, it's been years apart since this incident.  I was far younger then.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Menyatsoe, I remember very well what I did when I was 19.  You also did not mention that you were a member of the ANC and this is now also why you asked for the amendment ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr van der Berg, I don't think he's ever made mention or alleged that he was a member, I think the word used was a "supporter".

MR VAN DER BERG: That is indeed so, my apologies.
	Mr Menyatsoe, nowhere in your affidavit do you mention the fact that you were a supporter of the ANC, that you are or where at that stage.  Do you want to explain that or would you give us the same explanation again?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I've already explained to you that one cannot recall everything to the detail.  Even if you arrest somebody and you take a statement and when they get in court there's going to be some contradictions when they appear in court.  They would not stick to the statement that was taken down by the policeman.  He will be saying off the cuff whatever comes to his mind, but he will forget all the details.  He won't say to the Magistrate all details as given to the policeman.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Menyatsoe, this question of you being a supporter of the ANC has nothing in relation to the shooting incident, would I be wrong hearing you correctly?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not understand.

ADV MOTATA: I say you are saying - what you've been asked is that you said you were a supporter of the ANC, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat your question, Sir.

ADV MOTATA: 11th March 1994, you allege that you were a supporter of the ANC, did I hear you correctly?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That's correct, Sir.

ADV MOTATA: Now the details of the shooting incident, you said that happened some time back and you cannot at that stage recollect chronologically, is that not so?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That's correct, Sir.

ADV MOTATA: But you being a supporter of the ANC has got nothing to do for the moment with the shooting incident.  When you went there you were a supporter, wouldn't that be correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please rephrase your question, maybe I just don't understand it.

ADV MOTATA: Okay, let's put it this way.  In your application form you omitted to mention that you were a supporter of the ANC.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I forgot to mention that when I wrote that statement.  I actually forgot it.

ADV MOTATA: And when you did that you did not even tell your legal representative that incidentally I'm also a supporter of the ANC.