Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MR MATSE: PE:   Before this incident happened there at Kaotlahong(?)in the area where you were staying were there any killings thatoccurred there?

MR SEGOPA: Yes there were some, that is of Black peoplewho were killed but no one knew what killed them.  They were alwaysattacked.

MR MATSE: PE:   When people talk about these attacks therein the area where you stayed what did they say was the cause oftheir killings or who were killing them?

MR SEGOPA: It was rumoured that it was the Inkatha peopleand the Russians, but I don't know to which organisation did theRussians belong.

MR MATSE: PE:   Where did you hear this from or did you hearthis from the radio or from the people talking?

CHAIRPERSON: He said it was rumoured.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I am trying to find out how hewould get the rumour, was it possibly via announcements made inthe radio or?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh go ahead.

MR MATSE: PE:   Did you hear this being said over the radioor were these things said in your community?

MR SEGOPA: These things were said in the community atKaotlahong.

MR MATSE: PE:   Did you hear this over the radio?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I also heard it over the radio.

MR MATSE: PE:   Were you listening to a radio?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear over the radio that the Russianshad killed people?

MR SEGOPA: Yes.

MR MATSE: PE:   Thank you Mr Chairman, sorry may I just interrupthere because the witness said "marashia"(?) and theinterpretation came to say Russians, I don't think the witnessmeans Russians, I think he means "marashia", and notRussians, there is a difference.

MR MATSE: PE:   Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Will he be able to explain the difference Mr Matsepe?

UNKNOWN: Yes I think he would be able to explain thedifference.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes ask him please.

UNKNOWN: Mr Segopa do you realise that when you talkabout "marashi" here a person might think that you arespeaking about people from Russia, do you know about that, thepeople who stay overseas?

MR SEGOPA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you know of the Russians who are overseasin Russia, do you know about that?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I've heard about that.

UNKNOWN: Now please explain whether you are speakingabout those people or not.

MR SEGOPA: No "marasha" is a gang that wasoperating in the mines and it used to attack people, they calledthem "marashia".

UNKNOWN: What membership are they and what languagedo they speak?

MR SEGOPA: They are mostly Sotho.

UNKNOWN: So you say you heard about these over theradio and when people were speaking around?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I heard so.

UNKNOWN: I am going back now, when you linked yourselfwith this incident what did you have in your mind when you didthis?  What were you thinking you were trying to solve by then,or what were you doing?

MR SEGOPA: My aim was to do away with apartheid.  I wantedus to live together with the Whites, I didn't want to have apartheidanymore.

UNKNOWN: Now if you wanted to live together with theWhites a question may arise that these people who came to yourtownship, I mean these White people maybe to entertain themselves,why did you kill them?

MR SEGOPA: By then apartheid was reigning, that was in1990.  The Whites did not like blacks at all, so when we saw themin the township we thought they belonged to the Inkatha so wedecided to do away with them.

UNKNOWN: You see one thing I think is not clear inyour evidence is that why do you associate these people with Inkathabecause they are White people, because you explained earlier thatInkatha had Black members.

MR SEGOPA: Yes Inkatha had Black members and White membersand we heard over the radio that these Whites who belonged toInkatha used to smear themselves with a black substance and thengo and attack people in places like Sebokeng.

UNKNOWN: Do you mean Sebokeng?

MR SEGOPA: Yes Sebokeng and places like Johannesburg. Yes I heard this over the radio.

UNKNOWN: What did you hear over the radio regardingthese White people who are smearing themselves with a black substance?

MR SEGOPA: They smeared black substance on their facesand they attacked Black people after doing so.

UNKNOWN: Did you hear this over the radio?

MR SEGOPA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Were these White people you saw, did theyhave black substance on their faces?

MR SEGOPA: No.

UNKNOWN: So why did you associate them with Inkatha?

MR SEGOPA: I thought they also were some of the Inkathamembers or their supporters.

UNKNOWN: Do you understand that this is a bad incidentthat happened which you committed on that day?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I do.

UNKNOWN: What can you tell the deceased's family regardingthis, that act that you committed?

MR SEGOPA: I would like the deceased's family to forgiveme and the community also to forgive me regarding this act thatI committed during that political time in 1990.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATSEPE

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Segopa when this incident happened whattime was it?

MR SEGOPA: It was about six o'clock in the afternoon1990, September on Saturday.

<UNKNOWN>: Was it not at about 8 p.m?

MR SEGOPA: It was already sunset by then, around aboutsix o'clock in the afternoon.

<UNKNOWN>: Had Inkatha previously attacked your area?

MR SEGOPA: There were already ...(indistinct) who werekilled by then but I heard rumours that Inkatha would be comingto our community.

<UNKNOWN>: How many times, if you know did Inkatha attackyour area?

MR SEGOPA: They had never been to our community at all.

<UNKNOWN>: So Inkatha has never attacked your area before?

MR SEGOPA: That is so.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you at a meeting which was at the stadiumaddressed by Mr Minong(?)?

MR SEGOPA: Yes I was present.

<UNKNOWN>: What precisely did Mr Minong say?

MR SEGOPA: Mr Minong did brief the residents of Kaotlahongand he said he heard that Inkatha would be coming to attack theresidents.

<UNKNOWN>: If I understand you well Mr Minong's addresswas to the effect that the residents must be prepared to protectthemselves, that is all what he said.

MR SEGOPA: That's what he said to protect ourselves withwhatever we had.

<UNKNOWN>: Did Mr Minong sanction or order any killingof people entering the area?

MR SEGOPA: Mr Minong said that Inkatha members wouldcome and attack us and then we must be prepared to defend ourselveswhen they arrive.

<UNKNOWN>: Did he tell the specific day or date or timewhen Inkatha would attack your area?

MR SEGOPA: He never mentioned the date but he said wemust be prepared and armed at all times.

<UNKNOWN>: Now how long after Mr Minong's address to thecommunity did this crime take place?

MR SEGOPA: It was well after some days after he has mentionedthat Inkatha would arrive in our community.  On Saturday it happenedthat these white people came and then we attacked them as we thoughtthey were Inkatha members.

<UNKNOWN>: How many days after?

MR SEGOPA: It was after about four days after Mr Minonghad already delivered a speech to the community.

<UNKNOWN>: Now at the scene did any one of you, includingyourselves, talk to the occupants of the car to ascertain as towhether they were indeed Inkatha members?

MR SEGOPA: There were others who asked them whether arethey Inkatha members or not, specifically Tami Thlobo(?) did so,asked them are you Inkatha members, but Tami Thlobo said you areInkatha members.

<UNKNOWN>: So they were asked and they denied to be membersof Inkatha but they were told that they were by yourselves?

MR SEGOPA: That's so.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you a member of any force for protectionpurposes in the area?

MR SEGOPA: I am not a member of any security force inthe area where I stay.

<UNKNOWN>: Or do you have a unit like the SDU's in yourarea?

MR SEGOPA: We do have marshalls who manage to brief uson everything that occurred.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know what SDU's means, self-defenceunits, do you have them in that area?  Marshalls are people whomake sure that there is order when there are meetings, politicalmeetings or when there are marches, not so?

MR SEGOPA: Yes.