Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: That is the case.  If it should be claimed
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therefore by anyone that the State Security Council was not awareof the actions of the security forces and the security policeor of any specific incidents this would not be true.   BrigadierSchoon, during 1986 was in command of the terrorist division atthe security head office.  He phoned me one morning and told methat the Commissioner of Police gave him instructions, then GeneralJohan Coetzee, gave him instructions that the security policeand particularly my staff had to work with special forces.  Hisinstructions to me was to cooperate with the SADS special forces. 
 I must just mention here Chair, that there had always been somedisagreement between the SADF and the South African Police thatwe had difficulty in cooperating.  The SADF special forces wasa specialised combat group which undertook covert operations. If Brigadier Schoon for instance gave me instructions to workwith Military Intelligence I would not have considered an instructionto wage war.  But the instruction to work with special serviceswas a direct instruction to become engaged in military warfare. This instruction was given to me somewhat after the instructionfrom Brigadier Victor but the two instructions were given withina couple of months from each other.  I accepted this instructionfrom Brigadier Schoon and respected it as an instruction to becomedirectly militarily engaged and to counter the onslaught activelyin a military manner.  This was no longer normal policing functionsof normal policing tasks which I was authorised to exercise. My responsibilities became far broader.  All instructions, therefore,which I gave to my subordinates or which in another manner wastransferred to my subordinates must be seen against the backgroundof these two 
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instructions.  It must be seen as instructions to act in a situationand circumstances of war.  These actions must therefore be seenas military actions in a context of guerilla warfare.

UNKNOWN: An additional question Brigadier, whatwould your view have been during the struggle with regard to thetask of the security police, with regard to the National Party?

UNKNOWN: The security police worked for the NationalParty.  We had to carry out their instructions to keep them ingovernment.

UNKNOWN: Your view with regard to apartheid?

UNKNOWN: I grew up during a time in which apartheidexisted.  I was indoctrinated to believe that apartheid was right.

UNKNOWN: What would the task have been of the securitypolice with regards to both apartheid and communism, could yougive us some more information in this regard?

UNKNOWN: With regard to apartheid and communism ourtask was at all times to combat communism in every possible way. With regard to apartheid, our task was to maintain apartheidand to maintain the National Party government.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier would this have been the viewof your subordinates?

UNKNOWN: Certainly.

UNKNOWN: Would that have been the view communicatedto you by your superiors?

UNKNOWN: Indeed it was pressed on our hearts at everypossible occasion that we should suppress apartheid.

UNKNOWN: You mean communism?
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UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: I am sorry I mean communism.

UNKNOWN: For a moment I was quite surprised.

UNKNOWN: We had to maintain the apartheid government. That is what I intended.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier there is a further aspect, whichis a recurring question appearing in the application form.  Iam going to ask you this question particularly, we have dealtwith it but did you ever obtain every financial gain with regardto any of the actions you committed?

UNKNOWN: No, never Chair, neither did any of my subordinates.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Brigadier could you continueon page 19, the actions of activists.

UNKNOWN: The normal actions of activists to causedestabilisation and to destroy the State included the following,arson, bombings, school boycotts, consumer boycotts, damage toproperty, murder of police and council members, the burning downof the houses of policemen, intimidation, sabotage and similarcrimes.  This action was a continuing militant onslaught on thesecurity of the Republic aimed at innocent persons with the intentionto overthrow the State. It was this action which had to be countered. It was a military onslaught.  It was war.

UNKNOWN: Could you continue to explain to the Committeehow the process worked with regard to informants?

UNKNOWN: Informants were used by the Security Policeto obtain information with regard to who the activists were. Informants were paid for information as they supplied this fromtime-to-time.  There were many informants available for the useof the Security Branch.  Sometimes persons who had previouslybeen activists were used, after their
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rehabilitation, as informants.  Without informants the securitypolice would not have been able to work and would have been veryineffective.  Due to the information from informants files werecomposed with regard to the troublemakers, the most active activists. Specific goals were then determined with regard to the actionsto be taken.

UNKNOWN: With regard to instructions,we have already discussed this, I do not want to deal with thisin a detailed way but I do want to ask you ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: I just want to pose one question to theBrigadier, did you evaluate the information that you receivedfrom the various informers?

UNKNOWN: We did evaluate this information.  We neveracted simply on information from a single informer.  We had tohave information from two or three informers and then we reacted.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you receive information directly fromTREVETS?

UNKNOWN: I was aware of TREVETS.  We were not representedon that branch but it was possible for me to make representationsto TREVETS.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can you just briefly tell us how you, whatthis process of rehabilitating activists entailed?

UNKNOWN: After the interrogation of an activist wetreated them in such a manner, and we indoctrinated them in sucha way that they, in certain instances, turned to our side, andin certain cases even given rank and they became members of theSouth African Police, they were appointed to the South AfricanPolice.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Brigadier did this information (...tapeends)

UNKNOWN: During interrogation there were instancesof
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assault and torture, as I has said subsequently these people werealso treated in such a way that we then treated them well so thatthey changed sides.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Brigadier on thenext page we deal with instructions, I don't want you to readthe entire section but do read from the fifth line from the bottomstarting with "Opdragte vat ek ontvang het".

UNKNOWN: Instructions which I received were seldomin writing.  I only received instructions directly, personally,and then relayed it to my subordinates on a personal basis suchas for instance Captain Hechter.  It was not always easy to remembersuch instructions, or the particular terms in which the instructionwas shaped.

UNKNOWN: You were not able to obtain any documentationor you do not have any documentation in your possession with regardto any of these instructions received or given by yourself?

UNKNOWN: No this is the case.

UNKNOWN: The next page with regard to TREVETS?