Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: As a result of the position of trust between him and Peaches, I was satisfied that he'd give it to Peaches and tell him to get rid of it because how dangerous the situation was between him and Peaches, I can't say, Peaches could have used those elements he had in his possession against Mr van Zyl personally if they had such a situation between them.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So are you suggesting that if Mr van Zyl went to try and retrieve the gun from Peaches, Peaches might shoot him with it, is that what you're saying?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It could have happened.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But not even Mr van Zyl suggests that.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That's ideas I have.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now where did Mr Barnard get the Makarov with the silencer that he was using to attempt to assassinate Adv Omar?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I was not aware of Mr Barnard, I don't know where he got it.  With the information now at our disposal, I don't know if he got it from Mr van Zyl or from Peaches.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can I put something to you that appears to be quite probable?  We all know that Peaches was tasked to do the job, but he wasn't carrying out the job, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We all know that there was considerable pressure on Mr van Zyl to succeed in his projects.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl needed a reliable person to do the job properly.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, Peaches wasn't reliable so he needed to bring in somebody who he could rely on to do the job properly and that person was Ferdi Barnard.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I was not aware of it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But doesn't it strike you as you sit here today, that that's probably what happened that's why he was willing to take the risk of using Mr Barnard because he didn't have anybody else available to him at that time to do the job properly?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: There were other members from his infrastructures.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He doesn't mention any others that he thought could accomplish the job.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: He didn't tell me that he was going to use Barnard.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But now that you come to think about it, the truth having been revealed to you, doesn't it strike you that that's probably what happened?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I believe so, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now on Project Apie, is it your understanding that the project was to intimidate Bishop Tutu or was the project to intimidate Bishop Tutu's gardener?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I want to differ from Gen Webb in that it was aimed at the supporters of Mr Desmond Tutu and himself and his supporters.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just explain to us your understanding of how that was going to work, briefly.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: You see the pre-study and information about the project was not at my disposal and I only carried out the order, get Mr van Zyl his infrastructure and carry out this project with the baboon foetus.  What the intention was behind all that was revealed to us only after the disclosure of the organisation that Mr Tutu was a very high profile person and he enjoyed high status internationally and anthropologically it would have had an effect on him.  Now I'm not an anthropologist, I don't know about the superstitions and in what the population group Mr Tutu belongs to believes in, I only had to make sure that the project goes ahead.

MR KAHANOVITZ: This information that you put into your amnesty applications about the study that was done about the superstitions and so on and so forth, is this something you found out after your involvement in the project?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, Mr Verster told me that it was a Region 9 operation and that they, as a result of the population study they had carried out round Mr Tutu, that they decided on this project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, but he told you that the object of the exercise was to discredit Tutu?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes and his supporters.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Okay, but how?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know Sir.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if I ask you today how the hanging of the foetus in the tree was going to discredit either the Arch Bishop or his supporters, your answer is:  "I don't know."

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can only assume that the project was carried out with the impression that Mr Tutu was a superstitious person like - as was shown by the study and that his supporters - I don't know, I cannot talk about their superstitions but there would have been an impact according to the study.

MR KAHANOVITZ: As regards the time at which you received the instruction, I assume as the Regional Manager you would have regarded it as a rather strange instruction for a start?  It wasn't your everyday business.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And that being so, you might have been interested in knowing what the purpose was.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: And therefore?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Interested in comprehending what the purpose was.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, I wondered what the reason was.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright and I assume therefore you would have asked Joe Verster?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That's why he said to me that a study had been carried out, that's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you also would have heard the evidence that this was only one part of a five point plan targeting Bishop Tutu, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Evidence before this Commission?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It was what was put to witnesses from the contents of Mr Barnard's statement, did you hear that in a statement, one of the statements made by Mr Barnard when he talks about this, he talks about  this project having five phases and this was the third phase and then the fourth phase would have been hanging a hyena and then the fifth phase would be poisoning Bishop Tutu's son, did you hear that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I heard, yes, my legal representative told me that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it wasn't - I don't think Mr Kahanovitz was saying it was evidence here but it came  - during the course of evidence it has been mentioned.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I heard about it, I don't know about a five point plan.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, although you said that you don't want to give evidence about external projects, I noted that when you gave your evidence-in-chief, you were specifically asked whether Region 6 was involved in Lubowski's assassination.  You recall?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, and then you denied that Region 6 was involved in Lubowski's assassination, you recall that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I denied it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well why did you give that evidence if your attitude was that you're not talking about external operations?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: But I'm not talking about it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What you're saying is in so far as you're denying something, you're willing to give that kind of evidence?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think I told you earlier.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You're willing to tell us what you didn't ...(intervention)

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I was not involved in any misdeed abroad and I refuse to testify about it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Would your evidence include making the following statement?  The CCB was not involved in the assassination of Lubowski.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I didn't say that and I can't say that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I noted that your evidence was qualified in the sense of saying it was not a Region 6 project.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: As far as I know, it wasn't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm putting it to you that the reason you qualified your evidence in that way is because you're aware that the CCB was indeed, the CCB as a whole, forget about which region, was involved in Lubowski's assassination.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I wasn't, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's not the question I put to you.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I am not aware of CCB activities.