Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-04

WITNESS:   I would like to ask your leave and state even if we have limited information we knew very well that the ANC, we as the IFP are perceived as a stumbling block or as a barrier, and we also had information that the ANC doesn't regard us as freedom fighters.  However, it regards us as those people who are used by the white people, as puppets used by the whites to eliminate the ANC, seeing as we knew that the ANC was fighting for black people's liberation in South Africa.  However, we were aware that the ANC regarded us as people working in collaboration with the whites, because, as Inkatha people, we regarded the KwaZulu Government, which was called during that time as a, "Bantustan".  We knew that this Bantustan or homeland was working within a system.  Therefore, in the eyes of the ANC we were stupid.  We were people who were working in collaboration to achieve the white aims - bad aims, to oppress the black people.  That hurt us a lot.  However, we were taught in most cases by our instructors, together with Daluxolo Luthuli, that the white oppression is something that can be solved by peaceful agreements and through negotiation, through speeches and writing.  However, since the ANC have started attacking us, we, the Inkatha people - they were attacking us through the UDF, which was an underground structure,

MR MACADAM: /they used to

MR MACADAM: 2B they used to preach in black schools that liberation first, education later.  They were preaching that other people are banned if they don't want them to follow what they follow.  Preaching that councillors working for the KwaZulu Government should be killed.  We saw all those things happen before our eyes.  We saw tribal authorities being killed or eliminated and also the offices of the tribal chiefs.  Elderly people were to ... (inaudible) ... naked in front of communities.  We saw elderly people drinking cooking oil - the UDF members who made the person drink cooking oil, because that particular person happened to differ their views by going to buy where they decided to be caught.  All those things which shows like - these are the things that made us decide that we should fight against the ANC.  We knew that UDF was an ANC wing and we also knew that it was furthering the aims of the ANC inside the country as the ANC was banned in the country and it skipped to other countries outside.  These were the kind of lessons that we got and this added to what we knew personally.  The burning of councillors was something that we knew and so the killing of teachers was done before us, the burning and destroying of schools included.  Our leader, Mr Buthelezi, believed and he used to preach during Inkatha meetings that it's better to get a half a bread than not to get - than to get the whole bread itself.  And we knew that Bantu Education wasn't good. However, it was better because we considered that as half a loaf, other than getting nothing.  This is what we were told and taught in that camp, and this is what we believed, because some of them were reinforced by what we knew.

MR MACADAM: /You've already

MR MACADAM: 2B You've already told us that at a much later stage you became a proper and fully-fledged member of the KwaZulu Police.  Once that phase had been completed did you understand and were you taught the difference between attack and self-defence?

WITNESS:   That's correct, because I knew very well about the different kinds of arms.  I also knew about tactics - different kinds of tactics.  There were things which were used on a defensive and there were things which are on the offensive.  I'm trying to explain that as the training continued one was able to differentiate or distinguish as to, when you do this you do this to protect yourself, when you do that you are attacking or defensive - offensive, I'm sorry.  Our instructors also used to tell us that attacking is also one of the ways to defend yourself.  However, I will put it in this way, I know the difference between attacking and defending.

MR MACADAM: And in this training you received in this strange place which you even today have difficulty in telling us where it is, was there emphasis placed on both these categories or only one or what was the position?

WITNESS:   May you please repeat the question?  I don't get the question very well.

MR MACADAM: The training that you received in this strange place, you've said you know the difference between attacking and defensive.  How would you categorise the training that you received when you told us in detail about all these drills with the firearm and the buddy system?  How do you put that into which category?

WITNESS:   Under offensive.  I will say it's under offensive because we were taught a lot about attacking.  We did things like

MR MACADAM: /house penetration,

MR MACADAM: 2B house penetration, like infiltration, camouflage and concealment, tracking, survival, and we were also taught more about the dangerous arms like RPG, RPK, AK-47, arms which involves mortars, limpet mines, explosives like Cortex, safety fuses, PE4.  I don't think these are arms which you can use to defend yourself.  Rocket launchers, RPG7, anti-personnel and anti-tanks included.  Beehive arms, which were used to demolish bridges.  I don't think these are arms which you normally use to protect or defend yourself.  These are dangerous arms which are normally used to create danger.  That's the reason why I say we were concentrating much on the offensive side in our course in the advanced course, which was the second course.  We were still going to go through the third course, called, "Specialised course".

MR MACADAM: Could we deal in more detail with these aspects that you've sketched to us.  With the RPG7 you've mentioned, what were you actually taught about it or trained in connection with the RPG7?

WITNESS:   Do you want me to mention the particulars relating to RPG7?

MR MACADAM: I want you to explain what actually was done with this weapon.  I don't want to put words in your mouth, but there are many possibilities.  You might just have been shown the weapon and said that, "This is an RPG7".  You might have been told how the firearm works and it's demonstrated to you to show the effect thereof, or, thirdly, you might have been taught to use it for a specific purpose.  Can you indicate to us what the position was with the RPG7?

WITNESS:   They didn't just show us or identify it as an RPG7.  They taught us that this RPG7 can fire anti-tanks, meaning to shoot down planes or

MR MACADAM: /metal objects