Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-18

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  What I can remember is that somebody later reminded me and I also told them at the Section 29 hearing that I want to refresh my memory by talking to my colleagues and somebody said that do not shoot that long man, he is one of ours and somebody said that I had said that.  Whether that was the case and, it must be true.  I cannot remember whether he ran away.  I  communicated with Eric, Jimmy ran into one of the houses, he changed clothes, the people helped him and the next day I met him on Caledon Plain at a safe place.

UNKNOWN: So, then, despite the shock that you referred to in your evidence yesterday, being involved in a fuselage of shots being fired, you were able to say to people, look, that is Jimmy Mbane, please do not shoot him.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As I have just said, I did not see him.  Later on my memory was refreshed and somebody said do not shoot that long man, he is one of ours and if that is what they say, I must have said that, do not shoot that long running there.

UNKNOWN: Isn't the reason for your making that concession now, the fact that your colleague, your erstwhile colleague, Mr Mbelo, alleges that you, in fact, said so?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If that is what he says, I am not going to deny that.

UNKNOWN: Just one small point regarding your political motivations.  We have dealt with some of that already.  You have indicated in your application that you are a staunch supporter of the National Party?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I was a supporter of the National Party.  I grew up in such a house.  My mother and my father worked for the party.  I was a member of the National Party, but I have resigned.  I am apolitical now, I do not belong to any political party.

UNKNOWN: All right, I just wanted to ask you one question.  It is a small point.  On page 180 of Volume I, at page 121, you say,
"I am a citizen of this country.  I am apolitical."
What would you mean by that?  Page 180 of the first volume.  It is at line 21.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Page 100 and?

UNKNOWN: Page, sorry, it is numbered page 180 of this bundle.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: 180?  Yes.

UNKNOWN: It is line 21.  You say there that you are apolitical.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that it implies that you have no political convictions either way?  No?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: After what has been done to a person, for what we have gone through everything for, we have given everything for a country and a political party, we came from Christian homes and then what happened to us afterwards when they, Generals and the Ministers did not support us and I decided never, never again will I be interested in politics again and I am educating my children also in that respect.  Now, I want to make a contribution in combatting crime, for example, but this terrible red door which we were indoctrinated with, these people do not seem such monsters.  They are today governing our country and there is nothing wrong with that.  So, I have decided that I am apolitical, Sir.  I am not racist and I will "almal onder die selfde kam skeer" and with me it is now we must all contribute to make this country beautiful.  So, I do not never, ever and I will raise my child like that as well and I want to make it clear to me Mr Williams that, I want to say to him, for me, it is not, politics made this country what it is today and it was a scandal in some cases.

UNKNOWN: One final point, with the permission of the Chairperson, ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Excuse me, Mr, sorry, Mr Williams, is there something wrong with the translation, because I think what the witness has just said has not been translated again?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Must I repeat what I said, Madam?

SISI KHAMPEPE: We do not know whether there is something wrong with the translators.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Must I repeat it.  Mr Chairman, I will talk slower.  Today I am apolitical.  I never want to have anything to do with politics.  We have supported politics, we have supported the National Party.  No politician have supported us up to this stage, except for Minister Vlok, who provided a document to say that he accept responsibility for what we have done.  After February 1992 we have not been rehabilitated, nobody said you have done everything for us, you should scale down.  I do not have to, want anything to do with the politics.  I am not going to bring up my children like this. I am going to re-orientate my colleagues like that as well.  We have been told about the red bear who were going to consume our country, but nothing have happened, give us the benefit of the doubt.  Today they are governing the country.  Let they go ahead, I do not want to have anything to do with politics again.  That is my comment and that is why I say I am apolitical.
	After what we have gone through during 18 years in the security police and like, for example, Eugene de Kock, what he has gone through today, what do you get for that?  They sit in big houses at the various beaches and let us join hands together so that we can keep this country safe and that we do not lose this country, because of the high crime figure.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson ... (intervention).

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I hope the media will convey it like this.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Captain Bellingan.  Mr Chairperson, I realise that it is now one o' clock.  I have one further question and I will be done.

CHAIRPERSON: Put your question now and we will finish it.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Bellingan, if I can just come back to your concession yesterday that you may well have given your juniors, if I understand you correctly, to believe that the people whom they engage on that particular day are to be eliminated, that is the concession that you have made?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: There might have been a possibility, we were very tense.  We knew this would not be a little kindergarten picnic and we decided that those, if they shoot first, we will shoot back.  They shot first and then they lost.  I might have mentioned such an example to my juniors.

UNKNOWN: Right, so then you, are you also saying to the Committee today that you must then accept the responsibility for the deaths of all seven individuals if your juniors, in fact, enacted upon your instructions?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Williams is 100% correct.  I, Riaan Bellingan, who was a Sergeant at that time, take full responsibility for everybody who co-operated with me.  The askaris, Mbelo and also the responsibility for those seniors who today are saying there was nothing wrong, they did not know me.  Today I accept full responsibility for this whole operation.  If something went wrong and the Committee feels that a crime was committed and that I, perhaps, could get amnesty, I assume full responsibility.

UNKNOWN: And you will agree that the only evidence that we have regarding what took place on that particular day and in respect of the weapons that had been found on the alleged deceased, is information which emanates from yourselves and your colleagues?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR B WILLIAMS

MS PATEL: Mr ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: We will now take the adjournment.  Sorry.

MS PATEL: Perhaps, before we break, I have just been informed that Mr Jimmy Mbane is available.  He is one of the gentleman that was subpoenaed, he is the askari who was on the scene.  I have not had an opportunity to consult with him and I think, in all fairness, before I proceed with questioning Mr Bellingan that, at least, I be given that opportunity.  I will do it over lunch, but, perhaps, if I am not done with him, I beg your indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: Just know what the position is at two o' clock.  We will now adjourn.
HEARING ADJOURNS