Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

MR MALAN: Let me tell you the difference.  In your application you say your purpose was to abduct her, to get her as an informant and in your application you say she refused to give her cooperation and afterwards you considered several options to get her back, what would happen and you say at the safe house you took the decision an you considered many options and the only one that remained was elimination?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I did not consider the options or I did not weigh up the options.

MR MALAN: Was it Steyn?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No.

MR MALAN: But Steyn says it in his application but your evidence now is that you told Mr Steyn "we are going to abduct her and the probability is that we would kill her" you played open cards with him, "we are going to kill her but we would save her life if we can recruit her"?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Very well.

MR VISSER: To ask the question in the following manner, for you, what would have been the first prize?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If we could recruit her as an informant.  If I could just inform the Chairperson, this process was not strange to us, this was our success, on the contrary, for Natal.  The terrorists who infiltrated we would turn them within twelve hours and then we would send them back and use them and we always had the priority to gather intelligence because without any intelligence we are powerless.

MR MALAN: Can I just take it a bit further here?  Excuse me for interrupting you but you say it was not strange, this was the pattern, this was the norm.  Persons who give you trouble, you kill them but if you could turn them in the process you would probably tell them you would kill them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Let me tell you Chairperson, the turning of any MK terrorist was always the priority.

MR MALAN: This was the first prize?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, this was always the first priority, the turning of an informant, that we have to understand.

MR MALAN: Although the chances were one percent?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Even if the chances were one percent, if we can turn him that he can supply us with intelligence.  This was the exception to the rule where they were killed, the exception to the rule, not the practice.  We had much success that is what I'm trying to say.

MR MALAN: Well I will accept that but I would like get back to your evidence which is the problem now, your evidence here and it is evidence that is being led.  You said that you went, you would abduct her and in the case that the chances you would turn her would not concur with your experience in practice, the probability here would be that you would kill her?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Then we have two different comprehensions as to what you mean with priority.  You would say the first prize would be if she would turn but in the back of your mind you go in there telling yourself I am going to murder somebody but there is the chance that we could turn this person?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: If you wanted to kill her, what would you have done?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would have killed her in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: I don't know if you're satisfied Chairperson, can we continue?  And now you move to Swaziland, can you recall with how many vehicles you travelled?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson we moved with a Toyota Minibus, with an Isuzu Bakkie and with Colonel Andy Taylor's Datsun Laurel.

MR VISSER: And to simplify it, we'll refer to them as Taylor's car, the bus and the 4x4 Bakkie, or just the Bakkie.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: With those three vehicles, we travelled from Durban to Onverwagt border post.

MR VISSER: And who was with you?  Who all travelled with you, with which vehicles?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Brigadier Steyn, Colonel Taylor, Colonel Vorster, myself, Sam du Preez, Laurie Wasserman.

MR VISSER: Let's just stop here.  In which vehicle did the first four travel in?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: From here to the border post?

MR VISSER: Yes or can you not recall.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: From here myself and Colonel Taylor, Colonel Vorster and Brigadier Steyn travelled together in Taylor's car.

MR VISSER: And who else was there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Wasserman and Du Preez and two informants.

MR VISSER: With other two vehicles, the bus and the bakkie?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, the mini-bus and the bakkie.

MR VISSER: And then you travelled to the Onverwagt border post at Swaziland?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did anybody enter Swaziland?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And who were these?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Colonel Taylor ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Just refer to him as Taylor.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Taylor, Vorster, myself with Taylor's vehicle, we travelled through Onverwagt border post into Swaziland.

MR VISSER: What happened to Steyn?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: He remained on the South African side at Onverwagt border post.

MR VISSER: At the border post.  Was there any housing that you could use?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: At the border house there was an empty police house that we used, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, if I could refer to documentation, how did you get through the border posts.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: At Onverwagt border post?

MR VISSER: Yes.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: With our passports, I used a false passport.  Vorster had his own passport and I'm not sure if Taylor used his own or a false passport.

MR VISSER: You got into Swaziland with a false passport?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Wasserman and Du Preez, what happened to the two of them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Wasserman and Du Preez and the two informants went through the Goolal border posts, or close to Goolal border post into Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, it might be useful to refer to bundle 4, the newly marked bundle 4 page 443, where you will find a photo impression of a map of the Eastern Transvaal and Swaziland. Mr Chairman, you will see the N2 proceeding from the bottom of the page near the number 31 and proceeding in a northerly direction over Imkuzi and you see that the road splits, as it were, and to the right you'll see Goolal and Lavumisa on the right hand side and if you proceeded to the left, that would be to the west Mr Chairman.  You will see that a road turns out at Pangola turning north and it then continues over the international boundary between the Republic of South Africa and Swaziland before you reach a place with the name of Hluthi H-l-u-t-h-i.  It is at that point where the road crosses the border Mr Chairman, where Onverwagt is, it's not been inserted in this map but that is where Onverwagt is.

MR MALAN: Would you like to give the co-ordinates because I can't find the roads here.

MR VISSER: I can't Mr Chairman, because I haven't got the -I've only got the longitude.

MR MALAN: Is it 31J? 31H?

MR VISSER: Oh I see, it is precisely between 30 and 31J.

MR MALAN: Mr Prior indicated to me, thank you.

MR VISSER: Very well, now that we have the map before us, we can see that you travelled from Kuzi side, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And the occupants of Taylor's car went to Onverwagt.  Wasserman and Du Preez, did they also accompany you to Onverwagt where you left Steyn behind?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, we all went to Onverwagt border post.

MR VISSER: And you, Vorster and Taylor went through to the border post?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.