Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-07-04

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mrs Jakila. Perhaps a few clarifying questions.When you say that you were hoping that your son was going to come back togetherwith others who were returning to the country, is it because you were underthe impression that he had been on exile?

WITNESS: Yes, I thought so,because he wasn't the only one who had disappeared from Soweto. Quite a numberof kids had disappeared, so I thought the was part of them, or he was one ofthose who disappeared, but I really didn't have any clarity.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you. Did you have any clues from his friends or peoplewho were close to him as to when they last saw him what he was doing and wherehe was?

WITNESS: His brother, that is Jeremiah, I urged him to try and find out inSoweto as to what happened to his brother. Then he came back and told me thatthey said since he went to work in the morning, and there's nothing that theyheard from him thereafter. Even today we haven't heard anything, not even theslightest rumour or clue.

MR DLAMINI: From his brother, Jeremiah, was he involved in political activitiesor youth activities?

WITNESS: I really don't know because I wasn't staying with them.But what I know is that they had just arrived in Gauteng and he was only 16years old, he didn't have a pass or an identity document.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can I hand over to you?

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much. Any other questions?Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Thank you. Mrs Jakila, did your son, Andries,have any nicknames or other names that he might have used which might help usto trace him?

WITNESS: His nickname was Baba. That's what we affectionately calledhim.

MR LAX: Might he have used a different surname maybe?

WITNESS: He was usingGorape. Your other son, Jeremiah, where is he at the moment? --- Jeremiahis in Thembisa at the moment.

MR LAX: So our people could maybe speak to him and try and get someinformation from him.

WITNESS: Yes, but I don't have his full address. I am not reallysure where he stays, but I know where he works.

MR LAX: Perhaps you could give that to our people later if that's possibleplease. Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mrs Jakila. It's 20 years ago.It's very hard to get any information from what you have told us. You are stillin the dark today as you were then, but, you know, it occurred to me once againthat when we had this uprising in 1976, where so many young people went intoexile, or disappeared, or were killed, or were in gaol, and like so many mothersyou, when you heard about the disappearance of your son - it becomes almostlike a refrain, almost like a song. "I went to the prisons, I went to the policestations, I went to the hospitals, I went to the friends, and I couldn't findhim." It's a very sad song that many, many mothers have had to sing, and wefeel deeply for you.
We can't make promises that we can't keep, but we will try.We will try and do whatever we can to see if we can find at least what happenedto that young 16-year-old. Thank you very much for coming, and may God comfortyou in your loneliness. Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mrs Butsibo, would you please identify yourself.Have you both got the earphones on?

MRS BUTSIBO: I am Paulina Butsibo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much. So you must be EsterTsetsi. I hope I'm pronouncing the name correctly. If I am not please forgiveme. The reason why we have asked you to come together is because you both lostyour sons, and they were both killed on the same day in the same event, thesame incident, so we thought it would be helpful to hear your stories together.Mr Lax is going to guide you in a minute, but again it was 1992, after the Presidentwas released from prison, after many people had come back, and it's very tragic- but that is your story, and we'd much prefer to hear from you. Would you bothplease stand together to take the oath.

PAULINA BUTSIBO AND ESTER TSETSI: (Sworn, State)

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much. Please be seated. Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Good afternoon and greetingsto both of you.

WITNESS: Good afternoon, Sir.

MR LAX: If we could start with Mrs Butsibo first, and just -if youcould tell us a little bit about yourself and about your family, and if youcould just confirm your ... (intervention)

WITNESS: I'll be very brief, I'll tellyou what I know, because I wasn't staying at home, I was working in Sasol. Onthe 22nd of July, round about 5 o'clock, I got a call from New Vaal. Mymother had phoned my relative's child, and my relative's child was scared tophone me. She waited for her husband to come back, and the husband is workingin New Vaal. When her husband came he is the one who phoned me and said, "Aunt, Grannysays you must come together with the kids." I was working with my daughter.The schools were closed as they are closed right now. Now my granddaughtersand grandsons were with me at work, so I took them with. My husband died in1986. So the children were with me. Now, when I asked how did they expect meto come with the children, what was the matter, what had happened, she toldme that she didn't know what had happened. Then I told my boss. My boss saidI must phone Heilbron and speak to my mother. I phoned Heilbron, I asked tospeak to my mother. My mother came. I asked her as to why she wanted me to bringall the children, what had happened? My mother answered me, she said she isscared to tell me, but I must come home. She told me that Champagne had beenshot on the legs. I said to her she must explain to me. She asked me whetherI was strong enough. I told her I was strong enough because I had encounteredsuch experiences before. Then she told me that my son had died. I couldn't finishspeaking. The phone fell down and I collapsed. My boss or madam picked up thephone. She gave me some cold water to drink and she took the phone, she triedto phone my daughter, who was working on the Third Street at Vaalbank. She phonedMrs Kelly to let my daughter know that her brother had died. When I regainedmy consciousness I found that my daughter was there already with the two childrenwho had visited us, as well as her madam was there. They phoned - my boss phonedmy husband. Round about half past six they came back from work. (Pause)

MR LAX: As soon as you're feeling better we can continue.

WITNESS: WhenI regained consciousness I discovered that my daughter as well as her madam and my grandchildren were there.It was quite a tale in the street where I was working. She came with her madam,who was comforting her, as well as the children. Now they were going to takeus in a kombi and bring us to Heilbron. When we got to Heilbron, that was mydaughter and the grandchildren, we arrived at night, we discovered that therewere no taxis, there was absolutely no transport, and I met another gentlemanthat I know from the NCD. Then he took us and he gave us a lift to our place.On the morning of the 23rd I woke up together with my mother. We went to lookor find out where Champagne - that is my son - where did he die. I got a poolof blood there where he had fallen, where he had died. The blood had alreadydried. I took a shovel and I took this blood and put it in a plastic. I tookit with. Round about 10 o'clock I took my daughter, as well as her aunt. Wewent to the police station to see the deceased. When we got to Mapetla we sawComrades. They blocked us, they said we shouldn't go there alone because theAfrikaners were angry in the town, so we wouldn't be able to get into the town.So we went to Mr Mabena's place. Mr Mabena promised to take his car and accompanyus to the police station. We went to Mr Mabena's place. We stayed, we waitedfor each other. From there they gave us a lift to the police station. When wegot to the police station I got that my son had died. He was bleeding throughthe nose as well as the mouth. I will end there momentarily. Now the witnessis Mzimbi Moloi, but he hasn't come.