Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Myself, my wife, my daughter and my sister, atthe police station, from the hospital we were driven to the policestation after we were treated.   We were driven to the policestation, we were kept in separate rooms.   I remember my littledaughter was crying all the time trying to find out what happened.  I couldn't offer any answer because I was shocked myself.  Then whilst we were at the police station, the house was surroundedby all this group of policemen.   They made sure that they takeeach little evidence out of that place.   I must say that whenI was returned home, I don't know how many police cars were there. My house or my yard looked like a mini police station, therewere many police cars in there.   They collected each little evidencethey could come across, then they requested me or they demandedof me to report to the police station.   That
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I must report to the police station the following day and afterconsulting with Chiddel (indistinct) &..... who were representingme at the time, I was advised not to do so but rather to go tothe lawyers.   
 The following day the organisation which I belonged to at thetime, Cosatu, sent the assistant secretary-general of Cosatu atthe time, who is now the Minister of Public Safety & Security,Mr Sidney Mafumali to come and assess the damage.   He did exactlythat and he reported back to Cosatu that everything was damagedbut no one was killed.   The lawyers tried all the time to tryand gather information as to what happened, who did what, butthey could not come up with any answer. 
MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: You testified that you were later from thehospital detained, were you ever charged for anything by the thenBophutatswana police?

ANSWER: I was not charged, what happened is that ColMokubyane was having a tape as he was questioning me and his questioningline was that why do I belong to organisations and he said tome, because I was, I was a little bit surprised as to why I should,my belonging to an organisation be a problem because I said tohim no, I don't see anything wrong if I belong to an organisationand he called in, there's a white gentleman who came in, unfortunatelyI can't remember who it was, but apparently he was phoned andhe came from Pretoria, I suspect he came from Compol(?), who camewhen Mokubyane was questioning me.   He sat there, he did notquestion me, but he was writing each and little information thatI was actually giving out to Mokubyane especially around my activities,which
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organisations I belonged to because I totally reject any suggestionthat I dealt with the making of explosives or whatever allegationsthat are being made, I was not involved in that I was merely atrade union leader who represents the interests of workers.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Tibedi, the fact that 10 minutes or so afterthe explosion the police arrived, and that during your questioningby Col Mokubyane you were asked about your membership to organisations,what did this bring to your mind in relation to the applicants?

ANSWER: Can you repeat your question please?

<UNKNOWN>: You testified that 10 minutes after the explosionCol Mokubyane arrived with a number of police, you were takento hospital with the family and then detained again with the family.  These things happening so close together, what did they meanto you or what impression did they make to you?

ANSWER: Well I thought, and I still believe even at thismoment, that there was some kind of communication between thesecurity police and the hit-squad department together with theBop Government.   I am convinced in my own mind that couldn'thave been a coincidence.
QUESTION BY UNKNOWN PERSON - NO MICROPHONE

ANSWER: The hit squads and the Bop police.
MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: The Bop police Mr Chairman would mean the Bophutatswanapolice.

ANSWER: The Bophutatswana police.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Tibedi you heard the evidence of the applicants,not only today and the other days when you were here, that theyare sorry for what they have done to you and
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that is the purpose for their application for amnesty.   Whatwould your response be to their application and remorse statedby themselves?

ANSWER: You see that is a very difficult question toanswer, more especially if you find yourself in my situation whereyou only realise now who did this kind of thing.   You see itmust also be dealt with at two levels, I must deal with it attwo levels.   The first level will be at a family level, I'llhave to deal with it at a family level first and try to seek consensuswithin my family members as to what their feelings will be.  Yes, they claim I was a target, but in their action they knewthey were not only targeting at me, they knew they were killingme and my entire family.  That's why I'm saying I still have toconsult at that level.  The second level will be at an organisationallevel, I am a member of the Provincial Executive Committee ofthe ANC and surely at that level I've got to share some of theseexperiences with my colleagues.   Having said that I am awareof the position of the ANC inasfar as the whole question of Nationalreconciliation is concerned and I am fully in support of whatthe ANC says about National reconciliation.   I also agree thatreconciliation cannot be given until there is full disclosure,we can only be given amnesty once we have disclosed everythingand they we will be able to achieve, to achieve reconciliation.  In my own mind, in my own mind I don't think the process ofamnesty, as we are sitting today, will work until we get a fullcommitment from the perpetrators.   You see, to say I'm sorryI won't do it again is not enough.   We are sitting with a problemwhere the victims are the ones who seem to be expected to sayI am sorry all the time.   I'm saying here
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that it's high time that the perpetrators also, not only in wordsbut in deeds, they must be able to go all out and convince theircommunities that yes, we acted in this way and we acted wrongly.  It's not enough to say to me I am sorry Tibedi, but to me Ithink the process will be assisted a great deal if they can goout and say to their own communities whom they were trying toprotect, as they are claiming, they must go and say to them wedid it in the name of apartheid, we are sorry we apologise andwe want you to follow us in this example.   Then the process,the process will then be easy, the process of reconciliation willthen  be easy, but that's my view.   So I'm sorry I don't havea yes or no answer to your question.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman that will be the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Tibedi were youpresent when General Van der Merwe gave evidence?

ANSWER: Yes I was present.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you present when the hearings in thismatter started, right at the start?

ANSWER: You mean this morning?

<UNKNOWN>: No, right at the start last week Monday.

ANSWER: Yes I was present.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you present when the applicants read outtheir opening statement to this Committee?

ANSWER: Yes I was present.