Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

PROF MEIRING: Did you identify any of the other people that were there?

MS CAROLLISEN: No, only my son.

PROF MEIRING: And in the written statement which we received it says that was also a Leon Meyer who was shot on that day but he did not die immediately so he could tell you a bit of what happened.

MS CAROLLISEN: Leon's relatives were there so we met - we actually met each other there in Lesotho.

PROF MEIRING: Can you remember what - what they told you - what Leon told you what happened on the day that they shot - they were shot?

MS CAROLLISEN: The only one that was alive was Leon at the time and he could still say something because people came to the house and he could still say something.  He says what he saw while lying on his back was that there were people who were smeared black and he could see that they were whites.
 But all 9 was shot dead - Vivian was shot on the left hand side of his head and he said that Vivian died immediately.  Leon Meyer was the only one who was still alive at the time and he said that he remembered seeing people that was smeared black and that they were whites.

PROF MEIRING: Do you have any information on who  those people were, where they were from, who had sent them or anything?

MS CAROLLISEN: I do not have any information with - in that regard but Leon Meyer's people were also on TV and they said that they were white people and that they were boers from Vlakplaas.  That was what was mentioned because she said that on TV and they said that it was them because Vivian was with them and Vivian was shot by the same people. 
 Because all 9 of them was shot dead.

PROF MEIRING: And after you had identified your son, was then buried in Masero?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, we remained behind until he was buried on the Sunday because it was an open air burial.  All 9 of them were buried on that Sunday.

PROF MEIRING: Who took responsibility for the funeral.

MS CAROLLISEN: Everyone spoke, different people were there, I cannot say who - who were exactly was there I don't know any names.

PROF MEIRING: Just to interrupt you for a minute, somebody has come and joined you.  Could you just tell us who it is?

MS CAROLLISEN: This is Ouma and Vivian grew up by her.  She is Caroline Matthee.

PROF MEIRING: Ms Matthee I would like to welcome you and thank you for having come.  Could I just put a few questions to you just to get clarity on this whole picture.  
 I would like to know in the first place the - if there was ever an investigation into this matter after this incident.  Whether the police investigated it here in South Africa or  whether the Lesotho Police investigated it.

MS CAROLLISEN: We never - there was never any investigation into Vivian's death, that's why I was  very relieved that we had the opportunity to appear before this Truth Commission because nobody ever came to our house to come and inquire about Vivian - no policeman or anybody.
 All these years there has never been anything and it's now have been 11 years.  No policemen or anybody and this is the first time that Vivian's death is being exposed here at the Truth Commission.

PROF MEIRING: So it seems that what you do want from the Truth Commission is information and then you - you're be able to find peace.  In the statement which we received there's something that does not seem to clear and that is the date on which it happened.  Was it on the 19th or  20th of December?

MS CAROLLISEN: It was on the 19th on a Friday because we received the news the Saturday.

PROF MEIRING: And the Sunday you left.  Could you remember on which day the funeral was?

MS CAROLLISEN: A week later - it was a week later, I cannot say  whether it was the 27th , I think it was the 27th of December or so.  It was a while later because Vivian was still there for a whole week after he had been shot.  Because I still had to go and get his birth certificate there and because he was - he was - he had a - an alias he was working under another name.

PROF MEIRING: Could you just tell us how your family dealt with the whole incident with Vivian's death.

MS CAROLLISEN: We had to deal with it because myself and ouma have always been together and there was nobody else.  Therefore I so - we had to go and satisfy ourselves.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much, I would just like to  put one last question from myself and then I'll hand over to my colleagues here at the table.
 You mentioned that there was a group of people that was shot that day in Lesotho - I think you mentioned 9 people, is that correct?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, there were 9 people.

PROF MEIRING: Are some of them also going to come to the Truth Commission - their families are they also going to come forward with the matter?

MS CAROLLISEN: As far as I know Leon's matter - Leon Meyer's matter has been here, also Jackie Quinn.  I know that their matters have been brought to the Truth Commission.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.  Ms Chairperson those are the questions.

MS GOBODO: Thank you Piet and Maria.  I will hand over to the panel, if anyone has anything to say,  Denzil thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Is it Miss or Me Carollisen?

MS CAROLLISEN: It's Me Carollisen.

ADV POTGIETER: Good morning once again.  I would just like to ask you, your son when did he leave the country - when did he join the ANC?

MS CAROLLISEN: He left home in 1981.

ADV POTGIETER: So you are not sure whether he left the country immediately or not.

MS CAROLLISEN: I cannot say where he was but he was never at home.  He had - he was just away from home all the time.

ADV POTGIETER: And by 1981 had he completed his studies at the University?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes, that is the year in which he completed his studies.

ADV POTGIETER: Is that when he got his degree?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: He never worked here?

MS CAROLLISEN: No, he went directly into the ANC work.

ADV POTGIETER: According to the information which you - you received he was involved in the ANC's Military Wing - the MK - Umkhonto we Sizwe.  So he was a member of Umkhonto we Sizwe?

MS CAROLLISEN: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And perhaps it's - it's an important thing that can help us to get you more information.  The people like you son who joined the MK and left the country did not usually  use their own names in other countries.  Did anybody tell you whether your son was using another name - an alias or a nickname or a - a Military name?

MS CAROLLISEN: When we got to Lesotho they said - they mentioned a lot of different names.  They said they do not know him as Vivian Matthee.

ADV POTGIETER: Can you remember any of the names that they used to identify him?

MS CAROLLISEN: They mentioned several names but I cannot remember any specific name.  They mentioned something like Trevor and Darries and a lot of different names, but I - they did not specifically give us much information on those names.