Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is a pathetic fabrication from your client, I really regard is senile now.

MS SITA: Mrs Mandela, did Dr Asvat at any stage come to your house after the assaults were inflicted on the youths, but before the death of Stompie Sepei?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Did?

MS SITA: Did Dr Asvat at any time come to your house after the assaults were inflicted on the youth, but before the death of Stompie Sepei?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not to my recollection.

MS SITA: My client, again, Mr Morgan, testified that he saw Dr Asvat at your house after the assaults were inflicted on the youth.  He heard Dr Asvat tell you that Stompie should be taken to hospital.  Ms Falati also stated that Dr Asvat was there.  She testified that she particularly remembered this, because Dr Asvat did not greet her as he walked out on his way out.  Mr Morgan also heard from (...indistinct) the following day that Dr Asvat had been there and that he wanted to take Stompie straight to hospital.  What is your comment, Ma'am?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Of course, as you know now, it is a pathetic fabrication on the part of your client.  Not even the boys themselves, not even Mekgwe and the other youth confirmed that they were seen by any doctor.  That is his hallucination.

MS SITA: Mr Morgan did not testify that Dr Asvat saw any of the boys, Ma'am, he just testified that he saw Dr Asvat at your house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Dr Asvat did not come to my house on that day.

MS SITA: Did you at any time instruct Mr Morgan to take Jerry Richardson and the other boys to the Methodist manse?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not instruct your client to take Falati and Richardson to the manse.

MS SITA: Mr Morgan stated again that you personally instructed him to take Richardson and the other boys to the Methodist manse in the minibus, in the bus.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As I have stated here, he is totally confused.

MS SITA: Madam, do you still maintain that you were not present when the assaults on the youth took place?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not.

MS SITA: I have difficulty with your answer for the following reason, Madam.  Not only did Mr Morgan and the others who testified here say that you were present, but Mr Morgan even remembered a tiny detail which may be insignificant to you, but may give us indication that you were there.  He stated that he refused to let you sit on his chair and that one of the youth then brought a chair for you.  Mr Richardson also confirmed this, Madam.  What is your response?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was the evidence led by those youngsters in the trial and I am not surprised that Morgan would make completely fabricating stories of that sort.

MS SITA: Madam, why would Mr Morgan fabricate all this evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Why did he fabricate this evidence he led here, totally against what he said in the trial?

MS SITA: You heard him, he said he lied to protect you, Madam.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He is the last person to have had the capacity to protect me.

MS SITA: Madam, you stated earlier, that you do not need protection from a person of Mr Morgan's calibre, yet you found it fit that he could be your driver at times, Madam.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At the time, I can assure you, he was not as senile as he is now.

DR BORAINE: Ms Sita, are you finished?

MS SITA: Sir, there is just one more question.
 You have stated that you do not, in your evidence in chief today you stated that you do not attach any importance to information received from Mr John Morgan.  Is that correct, Madam?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Now?

MS SITA: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, now

MS SITA: Yet you see it fit to attach importance to the fact when he states that when the boys came out of the Methodist manse, they came out freely, voluntarily, toyi-toying.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have explained that ... (intervention).

MS SITA: So, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... at the time he was all right.

MS SITA: So, you see fit for the Commission to attach importance to that statement made by him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: We stated before you here that he now does everything for money and that money had to be put on the table for him to say whatever you wanted him to say.

MS SITA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Indeed, Madam.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Please, do not comment on the witness, the legal representative.  Could you state your name and who you represent please?

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Yes, certainly.  My name is Nicole Copping-Pervaas.  I represent Mr Mbatha.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, please go ahead.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Good afternoon Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Good afternoon, Ma'am.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: I have just got a few questions. I should not be too long with you.  The first question I want to ask you is when did you first hear of or rather hear about Mr Mbatha?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard about that Mbatha when we received information which was given to my attorneys office, that they had been assaulted.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Was that this letter that you wrote, your attorneys wrote on the 24th of May?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Referring to that letter, it says, who, sorry, just to go back, who actually gave you or your attorneys that information that he had been assaulted?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Goodness me, I would not know how they gather their intelligence information.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: So, somehow, it was just gathered and it came to your attention?  You do not know by whom?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am sure if you are South African you know that information gathering from intelligence is a certain privilege of certain people.

MS COPPING-PERVAAS: Because according to my client, he said to me that when he was in jail he was in isolation and he was only guarded by White prison warders and he cannot understand how that information could have leaked out to you or to your attorneys.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I really would not know.  I am so sorry I cannot help you in that regard.