Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

SISI KHAMPEPE: And before then, was there peace and tranquillity in your area?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: There was nothing.  There had been some few fights at some other places but we were not involved.  I would say from Kobeni to Makota there had been peace and tranquillity in that area.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your evidence you stated the reason why you launched this attack was because you were no longer sleeping because of the attacks, are you referring to the attacks that you've just enumerated which started in January of that year?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, that is correct because it is the very same war that started in 1991, January.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now were these attacks discussed with the leadership of the IFP?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I will think they did discuss these issues however we didn't know exactly what they were talking about.  We had to sit at our places and protect our families because people were attacking us and we couldn't get a chance to be where they were discussing these issues but I used to hear from rumours that they did sit and discuss these issues -  I was waiting at home to protect my family.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there any meeting of the IFP in your area?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: There were no meetings held in that area -people were fighting and we were just protecting people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So there wasn't a single meeting held in your area to discuss political issues of the time other than the fighting which was taking place in Richmond, I mean it's a well known fact that Richmond has always ...(intervention)

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't have information in that regard.  As I've explained, I was at the border area and I had to stay at home, not go into town or any place and I had to see and protect our homesteads, only women could go to town.  And we had to sit at home and protect our families.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you've given evidence that on this day in question, you had to obtain ammunition from a Mr - I can't remember the name - ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mtusi.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mtusi -  thank you.  You had to get ammunition from Mr Mtusi, how did you know that you could get ammunition from Mr Mtusi?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: We had to pass Magoda on our way to Ndaleni and we knew that there IFP members in that area.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did you know that Mtusi could give you the kind of ammunition that you wanted,  you had a variety of firearms that you had to load with those ammunitions you got from Mr Mtusi.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he the person who was customarily supplying such ammunition to IFP members in the area?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: We were just searching, investigating  - he was a person whom we knew, we didn't know that we would find ammunition from him.  We were just passing and because he was on our way so we entered his place to ask for ammunition and he took those ammunition which he had and he gave them to us and we got these few arms and left.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But that's not the impression we got when both you and Mr Gumbi gave your evidence.  It wasn't like you just happened to get into Mr Mtusi's homestead for this kind of ammunition.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: We knew that we might get ammunition from him because he was also prepared in most cases because he knew that people will attack.  We were just trying to try my luck by going to his place, we didn't exactly know that we'd find ammunition.  Even from me, people would have got ammunition so we thought he might have some and we went there.  As I've said, we got different ammunition from him and that's what I want to make clear.

CHAIRPERSON: My note of your evidence in chief and it's a rough note - it may be wrong, is
"We ran out of ammunition and we went to Mr Mtusi to get ammunition - not we were passing by - we went there to get it".

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.  We were passing and we decided to get to Mtusi to find ammunition.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's not what you said, this is what Judge Wilson is saying - that's not what you said in your evidence in chief.  I asked you the kind of ammunition you obtained and you were also very explicit in that regard but you stated that you went there to obtain ammunition and by the way that's also what Mr Gumbi said to us earlier on.  You had to go in and obtain further ammunition after you had run out of ammunition.  It wasn't a by the way thing ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, maybe I can assist the Chair.  I do have my consultation notes with me that was taken long before this hearing and in my consultation notes it is as the witness I testifying - that it was on the way.  If that could assist the Chair in any way.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Well probably it will assist but that's what your witness and your client stated before this Commission and you didn't correct him when ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

SISI KHAMPEPE: You did not correct him and you were leading him.

MR DE KLERK: That's correct.  As any human it's extremely difficult to correct each and every part during a trial.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I understand Mr de Klerk.  Do you know Mr Zuma, where Mr Mtusi obtained the ammunition he was able to give you on that night?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't know,  I might not have a clue.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know where the members of,  the people that were with you, where they obtained the firearms they were using that night?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Those were homemade guns and some R1's.  Those were the firearms which we collected when people were attacking so when they were running away we could collect them.  The firearms that we had, we got them from our attackers because when they start running we could get them and the homemade guns we were able to make ourselves.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Zuma.

MR DE KLERK: One question Mr Chairman maybe two.   Was it the position during that time that most of the people actually had weapons, either manufactured weapons or homemade weapons - most of the people in that area of Richmond were walking around with weapons because of this war?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: And most of the people in that area also had ammunition for those weapons?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE KLERK

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure about the procedure, that is the evidence for the Applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR RATHMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I would like to call one witness, a survivor of the first part of the attack, Doctor Lela Dlamini.  Mr Chairman I'm not quite sure what the arrangements are for witnesses giving evidence at all.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you give us your full names?  Can you hear me?  Can you hear me?

MRS DLAMINI: Yes, I can.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you please give us your full names?

MR DLAMINI: My names are Recoria Judith Dlamini.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you prepared to take an oath?

MRS DLAMINI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you please stand to take the oath?

RECORIA JUDITH DLAMINI: (sworn states)

MR RATHMAN: On the 23rd of June 1991 when it got dark in the evening, were you at home with your family?

MRS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: And who was with you in the house at the time?

MRS DLAMINI: It was my mother Emily Dlamini, Elsie Dlamini and Happy Dlamini and also Richard Dlamini.

MR RATHMAN: Now your home was attacked that night.

MRS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: Can you tell us what happened in that attack?

MRS DLAMINI: Yes, I can explain.

MR RATHMAN: Please tell us.