Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

MR PRIOR: The Amnesty Applications of Mr Xundu and two others proceeds.  As the Committee will recall Mr Xundu finished his evidence, however this morning, one of the victims requested that two questions be put to him through the Committee and those questions were written down.  Obviously, that's at the discretion of the Committee and the timing of or putting of those questions are at the Committee's discretion.  Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Having read the questions, it seems to me that they are a matter of his beliefs rather than of fact and that will, in no prejudice in recalling him later after the present applicant who is sitting up here has completed his evidence.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't know what will be the approach today because the applicant before the Committee is Thobela Mlambisa and Mr Chairman his application is not before the Committee in the true sense of the word because it was submitted yesterday with an affidavit to that effect and I think it will be proper that we will have to first to deal with that aspect of his application being submitted late.

CHAIRPERSON: I agree.
	I've been reading his affidavit, what does he make out for not having applied?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, the case he's making out, Mr
Chairman, is that he has applied initially and he became aware that his application is not before the Committee when, during the hearing of St James.  After the hearing of St James he then approached me, Mr Chairman, to follow up his lost application so that he can be in a position to reapply because the date was extended.  So I followed up with the TRC.  The TRC told me that he was referred from the Executive Secretary that they have the application because I was - I specifically mentioned that regarding the Golf Club incident.  But only when this matter has been set down I was by Ms Tanga who is from TRC, she told me that the application Mr Coetzee made a mistake, that application he referred to was the one regarding St. James.  So there was that mistake, Mr Chairman and that's the reason why he now applied late because you made a follow up to check, to make sure that there's no repetition of St James.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you check?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, it was during the - I think it was in September last year Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That was after the cut-off date, wasn't it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, it was - the response I received was after the cut-off date, Mr Chairman but I was - in fact what happened was that I spoke to him telephonically, we were speaking telephonically and I wanted a confirmation in writing Mr Chairman.  We're always communicating in writing with the Executive Secretary so I wanted confirmation in writing because they said the application is there, so I wanted something in writing.  So then on the 16th September he confirmed in writing that it was registered, the application.
ADV. SANDI: Which cut-off date are you talking about Mr Mbandazayo?  The very last cut-off date, 30th September 1997?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry, the cut-off date of submitting applications.
ADV. SANDI: So that was before.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It was before when I made enquiries.  He immediately approached me after the hearing of St James so I followed up immediately.
ADV. GCABASHE: Could I just find out, did Mr Mlambisa apply or rather use two separate forms for the two different incidents or did he use one form and detail both incidents on that single form?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, according to my information, Mr Chairman, as indicated here it was done through one form.  They were imprisoned then in Pollsmoor when Mr Mphaglele and Mr Arendse went there to make them fill application forms regarding the bail application - they wanted to make bail for them, to apply for them for bail.  So they made it in one application for these two incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: You see we have the applications for Mr Nkoma and for Mr Unkungozi.  They relate to the St James' Church incident.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, that's the point we are trying to make because they were done at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and they relate only to one incident, they relate only to the St James' Church, they were not the two incidents you have just told us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman regarding Nkoma and others, they were not involved in Golf Club, Mr Chairman, that's why they applied for one incident but regarding Mr Mlambisa and Ngoba, the late Ngoba, they applied for the two incidents.

MR PRIOR: ...[inaudible] Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we ought to get those applications or get confirmation of those applications.  They were for two incidents.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman suffice to say that we made the query or the request yesterday and the documents that you've just referred to now - Nkumbusi and the other person - were sent.  We now have sent a further request for them to raid the data base and also the filing system to see whether under any other reference number or any other name these persons made application.

CHAIRPERSON: What I propose to suggest is that we stand this application down so further enquiries can be made as to what were received.  I'm doing this because in the affidavit handed in you say that they were visited by their legal representatives for purposes discussed in the St James' incident and they thereafter completed the forms which were submitted and we can proceed with the other applicants.  They don't have the same difficulty do they?

MR MBANDAZAYO: No Mr Chairman they don't have the same difficulty as Mr Mlambisa.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you write to the TRC ever if you wanted to get things in writing?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, also myself I have to go to the file Mr Chairman and I'll come with the communication I had with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this letter, I saw it yesterday.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, there's a facsimile attached to the affidavit, Mr Chairman which regards also other application where they were clarifying this issue and the last paragraph of the second page, on the last paragraph, they refer to Mr Ntintili and Mr Mlambisa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, unfortunately they don't say which application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I agree with you Mr Chairman, I'm the only one whom - that I was - I did it after the St James so I was referring to Golf Club incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it's quite clear from page 49, sorry no, I'm looking at the wrong page - 26 -that that application was received and given a number.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman, I agree with you, it was the one which was done also because of the problem we are encountering as the same as this one in the - during the application of St James.  It was made that time because it was - and also they did not get the application which he made whilst he was in prison and it was done there.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was the application that Mr Coetzee refers to in his letter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Mr Chairman, I myself then I did not know that it was the same application I was involved, not involved but myself I enquired after the St James incident then I was enquired about the Golf Club incident, telling that Mr Mlambisa told me that he has applied whilst he was applying for St James incident.  Now I want to know whether you did not manage to get that application form and that was the response that I received.  I take it from there that they managed to get hold of that application but now whilst it was a week before this hearing I was told that it was wrong information, it was a mistake on their part.

CHAIRPERSON: Well could you find your letter dated the 15th September?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll do my best Mr Chairman because our witness Ntonga, I was still with Mr Ntonga when I was doing that, I will have to go to the offices of Mr Ntonga and get hold of the letter.
ADV. GCABASHE: Could I just ask, the St James application proceeded didn't it?