Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And if they moved fast, it would literally be a matter of seconds before they were on top of the ANC?

MR VAN REENEN: But they had more time that I did at that stage.

MR TIPP: We're not talking about whether you only had 3 seconds and they might have had 7 or 8 seconds, I'm just putting to you that literally they also only had a few seconds in which to assess and deal with the situation.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: I want to also very briefly Mr Chairman, to underline the sense of urgency, the sense of pressure, and the sense of peril that attended that situation, with a few references to one or two aspects of the evidence.  You follow what I'm doing?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: Now it's common cause Inspector - well let me put the context of it first, my apologies Mr Chairman.  Your evidence was emphatic at the inquest, you saw a group coming down King George Street and you say there was not a group at all in De Villiers Street.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Now I'm putting to you that it's common cause that there was in fact a very large group, numbering in the region of 500, which at the same time as the one came down King George, moving south, had come along De Villiers Street moving east to the very same intersection.

MR VAN REENEN: That is not so.  We wouldn't have pointed the group into the direction of De Villiers Street, because there was another group coming up and they would have collided.  There was no group coming up De Villiers Street.

MR TIPP: That's your recollection of it Inspector, but I'm just putting to you that it's common cause that there was this group, and the fact that you didn't see it and believed that you could in fact direct a large group in that direction, illustrates again how difficult it was for anybody to form a clear sense of what was happening, even on so large a scale.  Would you accept that?

MR VAN REENEN: No I would not agree because I looked down De Villiers Street, and there was no group approaching.  At that stage no incident had occurred on those corners.  The group was still moving forward, I went to them, De Villiers Street was open, and I did not show them down De Villiers Street.

MR TIPP: By the same token, and along the same vein, it's common cause that in that very intersection, literally in the moments before the shooting began, there was Mr von Eggedy, the one you've heard so much about and you've heard references again to him today while you were listening to the evidence.  And I believe Inspector, that you've seem perhaps a video of him or at least photographs of him.

MR VAN REENEN: I don't know.

MR TIPP: You haven't?

MR VAN REENEN: No I haven't.

MR TIPP: Well it's common cause that in the intersection immediately before the shooting there was this tall gentleman with strikingly long hair circling the intersection and calling on the marchers to stop.  Now you didn't see him?

MR VAN REENEN: Chairperson, if you could just precisely indicate to me where this person was in the intersection, was he already in King George Street after the intersection, or was he himself in the intersection where I was, because if they say that he was in the intersection, then I don't agree with that because no other person was with me in the intersection, it was only me and Sergeant van Green in the intersection.  If it's possibly after the intersection in King George Street, it could be, but that had to be after the intersection.

MR TIPP: Well Inspector, I'm going to do the next best thing to showing you a video of what happened, because the only pictorial depiction that we have is one prepared by Mr von Eggedy himself, entirely independently, Mr Chairman in Bundle B at page 112.  Mr Chairman I think it's not necessary for the Committee to turn it up, but it's the sketch portion of Mr von Eggedy's very first statement.  You will see there Inspector where Mr von Eggedy puts himself, in the intersection, circling in it.

MR VAN REENEN: I don't agree with this evidence.  I don't agree, he was not in the middle where he says that he was, because I moved from the northern side into King George Street,  I re-iterated back down the street in an eastern direction and there no person behind or in front of me while I was deterring the marchers into De Villiers Street.  He could not have been there at any point as he alleges, according to me.

MR TIPP: Well let me then put to you for your comment, the evidence of your colleague, Sergeant van Greunen.  You're doubtless aware that Sergeant van Greunen testified at the inquest that what he saw was a group of about 500, coming from De Villiers Street and turning into that part of King George Street next to Shell House.  And to put it in slightly more detail, Sergeant van Greunen says that when you and he ran up to stop the crowd, they had already turned into King George Street, in other words they were already through the intersection.  Now that was your colleague Sergeant van Greunen who ran right up next to you.

MR VAN REENEN: That's not correct, that is not what happened on that day.  As I've already said, there was one group moving down King George Street in a southern direction, that is the only group which I observed.

MR TIPP: Immediately after the events you went off to find Sergeant van Greunen, he'd run off?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: I take it that he would have reported to you then that he'd been injured by one of the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: With a sharp instrument like a spear or an assegai?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: That was in the course of the efforts by you and he to divert or stop the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Inspector, just one or two concluding aspects I hope, at the inquest at one point you gave evidence that you were not able to give a definite "yes" or a definite "no" as to whether or not there was a reason for the ANC guards to have opened fire, do you remember that?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And that's ...(indistinct)

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: ...(inaudible) as to where the first shots came from?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: So I think you will be able to confirm that once the crowd had pushed its way past you at whatever speed, it entered into that part of King George Street next to Shell House and again within a few seconds shooting broke out?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: That the shooting was of a short duration?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: We've heard estimates in the region of 10/12 seconds, would that correspond with your assessment?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that would be approximately correct.

MR TIPP: And whilst the shooting was still going on, marchers were, had turned and were trying to get away, did you see that?

MR VAN REENEN: After the shooting had taken place the marchers moved down De Villiers Street in a western direction, and some of the marchers moved back to the corners.

MR TIPP: Inspector you're not answering the question that I put to you, I just want to know whether you were in fact in a position to observe this, that whilst the shooting was still proceeding, marchers were running back, trying to get away.

MR VAN REENEN: I didn't see that.

MR TIPP: You didn't notice that.  Inspector, whilst there was shooting, on your version you were still in De Villiers Street, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: After the shooting?

MR TIPP: No, sorry, whilst the shooting was still continuing.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, I was in De Villiers Street towards the east.

MR TIPP: Did you see or notice at all that there was firing from the side of the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't notice anything.

MR TIPP: Could you from what you heard, were you able to tell whether or not such shots were fired?

MR VAN REENEN: No I couldn't say.