Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He was the one who knew that I was not well, seeing that he was my roommate.

MS TANZER: So he knew that you did not participate in the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MS TANZER: And Matanzima Nosenga is going to give evidence that in fact a meeting took place about two weeks before the attack, at which meeting members of the police, one Mr Peens and members, IFP leaders, all gave speeches.  Can you confirm this?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I know not of such a meeting.

MS TANZER: Nosenga is going to give evidence that at this meeting Themba Khoza and Mr Peens chaired the meeting, speeches were given by Matwana Zulu, one Darkie, Katheni and Dani.  Does such a meeting ring a bell, do any of these people ring a bell to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, shouldn't you break the question so that he can respond properly?  The first portion of the question relates to the fact that these individuals you have described, gave speeches and they chaired the meeting.

MS TANZER: I shall do that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so that he can respond properly.

MS TANZER: Are you aware of a meeting, or Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that  a meeting took place that was chaired by both Mr Peens, which is a member of the Murder and Robbery Squad and Themba Khoza.  Are you aware of such a meeting?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Did Themba Khoza chair any meeting two weeks prior to the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He did not chair any meeting.

MS TANZER: Did he give a speech at any hearing or rally about two weeks prior to the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: At any what?   At any hearing or rally?

MS TANZER: Yes Mr Chairman.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, I saw him delivering a speech for the last time at a rally at Jabulani.  That was the last time.

MS TANZER: You mentioned that a rally did take place about two weeks before the attack.  Could you say who gave speeches at this rally or who spoke?

CHAIRPERSON: He talked of a meeting, didn't he?

MS TANZER: I did.  I apologise I am using the word meeting, but I mean rally, hearing, a rally.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean the applicant, did the applicant not talk of a meeting which was approximately two weeks prior to the attack?

MS TANZER: He did.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you are referring to as a rally?

MS TANZER: I am, I am sorry, yes I am Mr Chairman.  I am referring to the meeting.  Are you aware of any other persons who gave a speech at the meeting two weeks prior to the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The meeting that we had as far as I know, was a meeting that was not attended by people from outside.  I did not see them.

MS TANZER: My question to you was, do you remember anybody who spoke at that meeting, besides Mr Khoza?

MR STRYDOM: He never said that Mr Khoza spoke at that meeting, he in fact said the last time he heard him speaking was at the rally at Jabulani.

MS TANZER: Who spoke at that meeting?

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Ma'am.  Please be very careful what you put to the witness, please try and put to the witness what he has said.

MS TANZER: Can you tell us who spoke at this meeting that was private?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, you spoke about a meeting that was held approximately two weeks prior to the attack, do you recall that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are being asked is, can you tell us who spoke at that meeting?  Do you understand the question?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you want to ask?

MS TANZER: That is, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Thembinkosi Khumalo,  Chairperson of Inkatha, followed by Induna Mkhize.  Those are the people who delivered speeches and we also had Matwana  Zulu and local residents of the hostel itself.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence to the effect that he was at this meeting, and that at this meeting, he had heard Themba Khoza speak and Themba Khoza saying that a certain insect should be killed, referring to the Boipatong residents, due to a certain Inkatha member having been killed in a location.  What is your comment to that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is an error.  I did not come across any such speech.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is also going to give evidence that Themba Khoza said at the meeting to kill the dogs, again referring to the Boipatong residents, because they were not human beings, and he said that the Indunas agreed with the statements of Themba Khoza?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did indicate that I know nothing about this, and resultantly I cannot give you an answer thereto.  I don't know anything about this.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that Mr Nosenga is also going to give evidence to the effect that Mr Peens, or Sergeant Peens from the Police Force, spoke in Afrikaans, he also spoke at the meeting, and that it was translated.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Again, I maintain that there is nothing that I can say about Nosenga.  I did not come across such kind of a speech.  I am here before this Commission to divulge the truth because I am not in court now.  I am here before the Commission and therefore I have to tell everything I know.
	I would have said the same about the Nosenga issue if I knew it.  It is very difficult for me to start telling a lie now here.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence and has made a statement to the effect that Mr Peens agreed with Themba Khoza and also said that he would supply caspirs near the location.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I would stick to the same response, I know nothing about that.  Maybe he was communicating with Khoza, but really I have not heard of anything like that.

MS TANZER: Let me then just put it to you, what he will say is that Sergeant Peens and Dani also said that they would supply Rooikop with weapons and they would give them to Themba Khoza who would bring them to the hostel.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is an error.  We did not have a problem with reference to weapons, because Qunchu was the one who was supplying us with firearms.
	I don't know how this Peens story comes in here.

MS TANZER: Are you aware of a meeting that took place on about the 14th of June 1992?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I do not remember, I don't know.

MS TANZER: Well Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that a meeting did take place at the hostel, and at this meeting it was decided that an attack will take place on the 17th of June and at this meeting it was said that everybody should be killed, including women and children?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I have already said that I do not remember any meeting held on that day.  The one meeting that I remember was on the 13th, wherein we were addressing the issues pertaining to a rally that we had to attend at Jabulani, where we were to address the experiences of 1976 wherein we were shot by the Boers during the Black Power and therefore I know nothing about anything different from that.

MS TANZER: Finally, are you aware of any relationship between any  member of the hostel and any  member of the Police Force in the Vaal Triangle area?  Were you aware of any kind of relationship of any sort?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.  I have never seen anyone like that.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.  Mr Buthelezi, what is it that you ask this Committee to grant you amnesty for?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I seek amnesty for the fact that I was charged for crimes pertaining to Tserela, that is the reason why I am here today.
	It is also an attempt to clear my name to the community of Tserela, to explain that I did not take part in the attack.

MR MAPOMA: So you are applying for amnesty because you were found guilty in short?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You did not kill anybody in Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992, is that correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.