Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: We couldn't trust those white people then, wethought they were police.

<UNKNOWN>: : So you are now saying you had seen white peoplein the township before?

ANSWER: I don't understand your questions sir?

<UNKNOWN>: : When you were asked in evidence, you saidthis was the first time, the day you stabbed this man, was thefirst time you saw a white person in the location.   Do you remembertelling us that?

ANSWER: I said it was the, it was my first time to meethim and when I saw him I saw my enemy because they police werelooking for me because I regarded him as one of the white policemen.

<UNKNOWN>: : No, you were asked specifically by the ladyon my right, and you said it was the first time you saw a whiteperson in the location.   Do you want to correct that now?

ANSWER: Yes I want to rectify that, that is the timewhen we were running away from the police and they were, the whitepolicemen that I have indicated the two of them, they used tocome in the township to look for us.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...pedestrians or they would come looking foryou using cars or they would come on foot?

ANSWER: They used to come with their cars and at timesthey would walk on foot and you know just in disguise.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Tsukubu did you attend meetings of the ANCYouth League during your membership with the ANC Youth League?

ANSWER: Yes I attended meetings.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Tulo was he your commander?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you advised of the policies of the ANCwith regard to the attitude of the organisation?   Were you familiarwith the policies of your organisation with regard to its relationswith the white people?

ANSWER: Yes I knew it.

<UNKNOWN>: : Are you sure of that Mr Tsukubu?

ANSWER: At that time I knew the policy and I also addedto my personal experience as a youth.

CHAIRPERSON: : Is there any re-examination?   I think youshould confine your re-examination strictly from what has beenasked.
RE-EXAMINATION

COUNSEL: It will just be one aspect Mr Chairman and itstems out of the last question which was put by Ms Ganpepe(?).  Were you familiar with the policies of the ANC regarding...  You were asked that question, were you familiar with the policiesof the ANC regarding white persons, and you said yes.   Stemmingfrom that question I want to find out from you whether duringthe course of the meetings that you attended of the ANC you learnedthat in the past members of the military wing, MK, had plantedbombs which exploded and injured white people?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you when you committed the act have any,did you relate these bombings of innocent white people?

MEMBER OF COMMISSION: He's told us what his intentionwas, you are now putting words into his mouth.

COUNSEL: Your Worship I think I will leave this lineof questioning.   I thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
MR ?:: Mr Chairman this puts me in a position where I'mgoing to have to ask for a short adjournment.   The reason hereforis that we were trying to locate a witness, I just want to findout whether we have been able to get this particular witness.  He is a purported member of the Three Million Gang.

CHAIRPERSON: : Yes.
MR ?:: I am therefore asking for a short adjournment andthe order in which I'm going to call my, I hope to be callingtwo or three witnesses just to get that order correct.

CHAIRPERSON: : Yes very well, shall we adjourn for how long,15 minutes?
MR ?:: I think 15 minutes should do Mr Chairman, 15 minutes.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION
MR ?:: ...will testify mainly on behalf of all the applicantsjust to give us a general knowledge of the workings of the ThreeMillion Gang which have been referred to several times in theevidence led by the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: : Before you do that, we have heard a great dealof evidence about the Three Million Gang and I don't think ithas been questioned that there was such a gang or not.   Isn'tit common cause that there was such a gang that operated in thisarea, and if it is common cause one must try and avoid leadingevidence which is going to be a repetition of a great deal ofwhat we have already got so I think you should consider that.
MR ?:: Mr Chairman yes I have considered it seriously,that is why the evidence that the witness is going to lead willmaybe just concentrate on the connections that the gang had witha specific political party.

CHAIRPERSON: : If you will confine it to what is relevantyou may call him.   What are his full names?
MR ?:: May I just add also with what could possibly bethe constant allegations regarding the collusion with certainmembers of the then South African Police.

CHAIRPERSON: : Yes, what are his names?
MR ?:: His name is Mpho Samuel Taka.

CHAIRPERSON: : Very well, is Mr Taka?
MPHO SAMUEL TAKA (ss)
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL
 Mr Chairman if you allow me I just want to lead the witness into,so that the Committee can have an idea of who he is.   Mpho I'mgoing to ask you the questions in Sesotho, if there is anythingthat you do not understand you must stop me and tell me that youdo not understand.   I want you to understand why are you sittinghere.   Do you know why are you here?

ANSWER: Yes I know why am I here.

<UNKNOWN>: : Don't think that you are being tried here.  An application was made by a young man who was found guiltyof murdering certain people in that time of violence, that isthe time of Three Million.   There was a conflict between themembers of the gang and the ANC Youth League.   Now these peoplehave to prove through their evidence that all the acts they havedone were politically motivated, do you understand that?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : In other words I'm referring to the applicants. Now in their evidence they spoke a lot about the activities ofthese gangster called Three Million.   Now I want you to clarifybriefly as to what were the activities, in other words just tellus anything in relation with this gang.   Do you understand that?

CHAIRPERSON: : More about you, who you are, where are youfrom, how old are you and his personal details please Mr Motsepe.

MR MOTSEPE: Thank you sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : In the years of 1990 were you involved in theThree Million?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : After being involved in the Three Million Gangdo you know that they were in conflict with people in the community?

ANSWER: Yes I know they were in conflict.

<UNKNOWN>: : Which part of the community were they targeting?

ANSWER: There were many gangs in Maokeng like the Canadians,Sekelekwas(?), Witdoek, those are the gangs I remember.

<UNKNOWN>: : When Three Million was in conflict with whichorganisation was it in conflict?   Let me ask you this do youknow the ANC Youth League?

ANSWER: Yes I know.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were they in conflict with the ANC Youth League?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : I don't want you to tell us deeply into theiractivities but I want you to tell us in short do you think thesepeople had any relation with the political organisation?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Which organisation?

ANSWER: Are you asking me a relationship between theThree Million and the other political organisations, it was Inkatha.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why do you say that?

ANSWER: We were given the membership cards from Inkatha.

<UNKNOWN>: : In which year?

ANSWER: I can't remember the year.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where did you get these membership cards?

ANSWER: In town.

<UNKNOWN>: : From whom?

ANSWER: From members of Inkatha in Welkom.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who was the then leader of Inkatha, do youknow Mr Msebi was the leader?

ANSWER: Yes I know him.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where do you know him from?

ANSWER: Here in Maokeng he used to visit Maokeng.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did he have any relation with you?

ANSWER: Yes I have already indicated that we joined Inkatha.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now there was evidence here that (tape blank)...theseThree Million people.   Let me first say before I ask you thisquestion, now did you perceive yourself as a leader or were youjust an ordinary member?