Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

ADV VAN DER WALT: Now if I understood your evidence correctly, your evidence about the Nkala Gang, at that stage you went to work underground in Port Elizabeth?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's right.

ADV VAN DER WALT: Because after all, you couldn't have been working underground in Johannesburg, because you were already known there as somebody who worked for Fidelity Guards?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, not that far.  As I have already said to the Court, I initially worked for First Force.  First Force, the people in the public didn't know that First Force was part of Fidelity Guards.  Then I myself applied to be transferred to the tactical support unit.  Because they were also part of Fidelity Guards.  The ordinary people thought we were perhaps a unit of our own or part of the police.  So it would have been easy for me to leave the unit, and then suddenly I got another car, which they didn't know, and grow a beard and then I could go out into the streets. So if somebody asked me don't you work for Fidelity Guards, then it would be easy for me to say no, I don't.

ADV VAN DER WALT: But you were part of the investigating team for Mr Gerber?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I was part of the investigating team, but not under Mr Gerber.  As I have already told the Commission, I reported directed to Daantjie van Wyk, not to the offices where Mr Gerber was staying. These were completely different offices. I began reporting to Mr Gerber when Mr Daantjie van Wyk went on leave.

ADV VAN DER WALT: So how then did you become involved in this interrogation if you weren't part of the investigating team?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I became involved in the interrogation, because my superior, Daantjie van Wyk wasn't there, and before he left, he informed me, he said that if there were any problems from now on, I must, when I report, I must report to Mr Gerber.  At that stage, in other words, Mr Gerber was my superior. If he told me to do a particular work then I had to heed him.

ADV VAN DER WALT: So then you weren't working underground anymore?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, I was still working underground, but Mr Gerber, if I wanted to report for duty or off-duty, or I had problems or if I needed money, he was the one I had to go to for me to get help.

ADV VAN DER WALT: But now suddenly you left the building, the Fidelity Guards Building together with Oosthuisen and  you left Khosa.  But then everybody could have seen you, then surely you were breaking that cloak which concealed the fact that you were working for Fidelity Guards?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: But on that particular day the situation was completely different.

ADV VAN DER WALT: But do you see what I am trying to say?  You now want to deny that you went to Soweto because you would never have gone there because you were working underground.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's something else.  I wouldn't have gone to Soweto with Mr Johan van Eyck to buy an AK-47.

ADV VAN DER WALT: But in this other case you are driving along, you were a policeman in Johannesburg.  The ordinary people in the street would easily be able to identify you. Isn't that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct. Chairperson, I have a problem with questions of this kind.  The evidence is simply that he went to Soweto with Oosthuisen and others on that particular day.  The evidence is that he was given instructions by Gerber to fetch his bakkie and not to go to Soweto.

ADV VAN DER WALT: That wasn't my question, Sir.

HASSAN MALL: As I understand your question, the fact of the matter seems to be that he did go with Gerber on that day.

ADV VAN DER WALT: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: That is not in dispute, is it?

ADV VAN DER WALT: No, but Mr Chairperson, the fact of the matter is not that he went to Soweto with Mr Van Eyck, because he says he would not have gone.  Because then this cloak of secrecy that he was underground that would have been exposed, but on that particular day he drove out of the Fidelity Guards Building, together with Oosthuisen who is an investigator, together with Julius Khosa, and then it doesn't matter whether the people saw him in the streets.  That is my point.

HASSAN MALL: The point that is being made is that the reason you gave for not having gone to purchase AK-47s was not correct, when you said that you didn't go because you did not want your cover to be found out.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That is correct, that is why I didn't want to go there, Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: Well, it is being suggested that that reason can't be true, because on this occasion you seem to have gone perfectly openly, you knew that your underground cover would be exposed.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: The incident happened so fast, maybe there was not enough time between me and Julius to plan the whole thing, saying to them that Frans Oosthuisen cannot drive around in town or maybe whatever, with us.  It happened so fast so there was no time maybe to plan it or maybe to discuss it.

JUDGE WILSON: Was the whole of this building occupied by security guards?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Ja, that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: It was all their building, nobody else in that building.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, nobody else.

JUDGE WILSON: And you parked your car there every day and you drove there every day.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, I only reported on duty if there is anything or maybe, the rest I used to report to, as you say I used to report else differently.

JUDGE WILSON: Didn't you report to that building to Mr Van Wyk in that building every day?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, Mr Van Wyk was in Alcan Building, which is about two, three blocks away from this.

JUDGE WILSON: So was this, it was only for this temporary time that you came to this building?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, Chairperson.

ADV VAN DER WALT: Nevertheless, Sir, if for that period for which Mr Van Wyk was on leave, you went in and out of the Fidelity Guards Building.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, that's correct.  But as I told the Court I only went to that building in the morning and into the afternoon, not in and out. If it happened that somebody had seen me, and perhaps wondered what I was looking for there, I perhaps wouldn't have told him, he may not have believed me.

ADV VAN DER WALT: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VAN DER WALT

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, do you wish to re-examine this witness?

UNKNOWN: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In the absence of Mr Van Wyk, was it Brig Van Wyk, from whom are you taking orders?  I will repeat that. In the absence, temporary absence of Brig Van Wyk, was there somebody from whom you were taking instructions or orders?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: It was Mr Gerber.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And did he give you any orders on the morning of the 21st of May 1991?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, Chairperson.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you expected to carry out those orders that he gave you?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, since I had that instruction to report to him.

HASSAN MALL: What was the argument between Oosthuisen and Gerber about?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: The argument was that Mr Gerber said that since it has been a long time since Frans Oosthuisen is a spy, in other words he has been instructed by the head office, to come and infiltrate or maybe to see what was going on in the security branch, it seems Mr Oosthuisen, it was not a long time before he was working, he didn't have many months in the security department.

HASSAN MALL: You told us that you saw Oosthuisen fire a shot whilst the deceased was hanging from a tree?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: And you also said that when you went towards the deceased, you found that he had not been injured by that shot?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, Chairperson.