Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I have explained already that I saw them harassing the community.  It was my aims as well as my duty to protect the community, and it was my responsibility to see to it that the community was safe.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you know if ..(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose?  Your evidence has not elicited anything about what Hapile and Elsie did.  Your harassment that you are referring to has been in relation to the person, or to persons that you named Oupa Smith, Dondo, Dada, and that group.  You did not in your evidence say how Elsie, other than having been seen in their company, harassed the community.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: My apologies.  They harassed the community in the sense in that they were the ones who identified the community, the members of the communities, and they were the ones who pointed out the houses where these people lived.  Ultimately those people died.

CHAIRPERSON: And your earlier evidence that Dada stayed, before he moved to Kwamadala Hostel, at Zone 12, and so did Jabu, you didn't know where Dondo stayed, and Oupa Smith stayed in Zone 13.  Why would it have been necessary for Elsie and Hapile to identify people to be attacked by the IFP when in fact they were in the company of people who were familiar with your zone and were also familiar with the community in Zone 13, because they had before moving to Kwamadala Hostel been staying in those zones?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Thank you chair.  It is true they once lived in those zones, but they did not have information as to who the active members were.  Now to know who the active members were, it was through them.  And who was from outside the country, they knew through them.  And we were in their hit list.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: And how did you know that you were in their hit list?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I know it because we captured some of them and they told us the names that were at Kwamadala and the people who revealed those names.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this capture?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was during the hard times of violence.  We kidnapped some of them in town and bring them to the township and give us information and killed them afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that this happened during the political turmoil in Sebokeng.  I just need the precise period.  Which month and which year did you capture people who were able to tell you that you were in the hit list?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Thank you Chair.  I have already alluded to the situation.  You know, I've lost so many things.  I do not remember when it was in the year.  I can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did that information come to your knowledge in 1993, or in 1992?  You should be able to remember, we are dealing with a situation wherein you only came back into the country in February 1992.  You are able to remember the precise month when you came back into the country, and when you established the SDUs.  Surely did you capture these people whilst you were a commander of the SDU?  Did this happen whilst you were in command?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, they were captured whilst I was still the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you were the commander in May, June 1992.  That's when you became the commander.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you were commander by the 15th of August 1993, is it not so?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: 15th of August 1992?

CHAIRPERSON: 1993.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I was still the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Could this information has come to your attention after 1993, in 1994?  I'm now talking about the hit list.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was late 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: You see now you are able to remember.  You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.  Now, during your period, the period when you were still a commander, did you ever have the opportunity of speaking to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: No.

MS MOLOISANE: Did you report to anybody after Bopipo or Bana Ntjolo had reported to you that Hapile had been killed and that Elsie had been injured?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: To whom did you report?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I reported to Bonga Khumalo.

MS MOLOISANE: And when was that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was after I dismissed Bopipo.  We were at a very awkward position, close to the deceased's family.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was on a Monday and the incident happened over the week-end.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the incident happen on a Sunday, and you were able to report to Mr Khumalo the next day, that being a Monday?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not know whether the incident happened on Saturday or Sunday, but I reported on Monday.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you know one Maletsatsi Marumo?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I know her.

MS MOLOISANE: How do you know her?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I once hid at her place.

CHAIRPERSON: He once hid?

INTERPRETER: He once used her place as a hideout.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair just before I proceed with my questions, I just want to inform the Committee that due to lateness of an hour I just want to cover the Maletsatsi incident as he was the commander then.

CHAIRPERSON: We noticed that.

MS MOLOISANE: Now why did you have to use Maletsatsi's home as a hideout?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: At that time she was the supporter of the ANC and we were school mates.

MS MOLOISANE: And when was that when you used her home as a hideout?  The year?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was early 1993.

MS MOLOISANE: Did this Maletsatsi belong to any political party or not?

CHAIRPERSON: She has just said she was a supporter of the ANC.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We would be interested to know in which school they both attended.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Which school did you both attend?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: We were at Umpuluzi School.

CHAIRPERSON: In what standard were you?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I was in standard six.

CHAIRPERSON: And in what standard was Maletsatsi?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: She was also in standard six.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, how did it happen that you should seek hideout from Maletsatsi's home?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was because I was the present of Cosas at that time and she might have realised the treatment that I received from the white people.  Each time they came to look for me I would run away and she told me that she had a house and I can come and stay with her.

MS MOLOISANE: Proceed.  What happened after that incident?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I lived with the comrades for quite a long time, and Maletsatsi lost control and she left us in the house, and we did not know her whereabouts.  She came back after some time and she took some girls who lived around and she left with them.  The disappeared for quite some time and only those girls would come back without her, and they told us then where they went to, and who Maletsatsi made them to meet.

MS MOLOISANE: Now after Maletsatsi had disappeared for some time did you see her again?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I saw her dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her, or you heard that she was dead?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I saw her.

MS MOLOISANE: Now John Radebe is seeking amnesty for the killing of Maletsatsi.  Do you know perhaps under what circumstances and why as Maletsatsi killed?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I know.

MS MOLOISANE: Tell this Committee.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: A decision was taken to eliminate Maletsatsi because the innocent girls were kidnapped and when they arrived at Kwamadala was, she was bossy, she would choose men for each girl.  She was sort of a star, and I ended up issuing out an order that Maletsatsi be eliminated.

MS MOLOISANE: Was she still an ANC supporter when you issued this order?

INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not get the question.