Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, I hope you understand when I say that on the meeting of the 17th Damarra said that it had come to a point where we could not tolerate this anymore and we had to show them that we could not tolerate it anymore.  That is what I've explained here.

MR BERGER: And you agreed with Chonco, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The mere fact that I went to Boipatong means that I agreed with him.

MR BERGER: The fact that all your comrades also went to Boipatong means that they all agreed with Mr Chonco?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you want him to say, to speak on behalf of the others?  It must follow that they agreed if they were there, one doesn't know.

MR BERGER: As far as you could see - well, let me ask you this then Mr Mthembu, when Mr Chonco said: "Our people are being killed in droves, it's time now, we must now go and kill them", what was the response of everyone else at that meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The people who were there, even though I cannot recall what their response was, it became obvious to them that if the time had come for the people to be attacked then that be so.  It had come to a point where it was no longer tolerable.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say anything at the meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot say if they did because I did not hear anything thereafter.

MR BERGER: Well I want you to think back to that meeting in the stadium.  All the male residents of the hostel were there, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, you should know that if you speak of: "all", some were at work, some were in the stadium so when you say: "all" I don't know what you mean.

MR BERGER: Well at page 36, paragraph 2 you say
"A few minutes after the news I was surprised when the siren went and I noticed that they wanted all the people to go to the stadium where we used to hold meetings"
You said that all the people were called to the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, there must be a difference between saying: "the siren called all the people to the meeting" and whether in fact all the people were there.

MR BERGER: Yes Chairperson, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he's trying to emphasise here is that he doesn't know whether all the people were there, there were people who were at work.  Unless there's really something that turns on the fact that everyone was there, no-one had gone to work on that day, on that night.

MR BERGER: There were hundreds and hundreds of men in the stadium, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, you should understand what I'm saying.  That evening when I say all people went to the stadium I mean all the people who were present at Kwamadala Hostel that night.  I actually referred to the people who were at the hostel at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: What he's asking you now is that there were hundreds and hundreds of men at the stadium.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, there were not hundreds.

MR BERGER: Approximately how many men were in the stadium.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: About 200 to 300.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that many, many more than 300 people, some witnesses have put it between 800 and 1000 people attacked Boipatong that night, now it's your evidence that the men who were at the stadium then went to attack Boipatong.  So I'm putting to you that those men in the stadium must have numbered far in excess of 300 men, somewhere between 800 and 1000.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Because I did not have a calculator I was not able to calculate how many there were.

MR BERGER: At that time ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Berger is putting to you is this, you've estimated the men who were there at between 200 and 300, what Mr Berger is saying, according to his instructions there were approximately between 800 and 1000 men present at the stadium.  What do you say to that figure, do you agree with it or don't you agree with it?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not agree or disagree with him if that is how he got his instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this perhaps be the appropriate time to take the tea adjournment?

MR BERGER: As you please Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  We will return at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: (s.u.o.)

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you told the Committee last week that you were not targeting the residents generally of Boipatong but that you went to Boipatong to kill the members of the self-defence units, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, yes, that is so.  These very same self-defence units were ANC after all.

MR BERGER: Was that discussed at the stadium before you went to Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I didn't hear that at the stadium.

MR BERGER: At the stadium it was just said: "We are going to Boipatong to attack the people"?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you target specific people of the ANC who were known to live in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, we went to attack for a reason, that our people were being killed, they couldn't go to the shops to buy and we therefore could not just go and attack people who were not known.

MR BERGER: Well that's my point you see.  You were a leading member of one of the IFP structures in the Kwamadala Hostel, you had access to the other structure, that's the Senior Committee, Mr Vanana Zulu was the Chair of that committee and you had access to other structures in the Transvaal at that time in the IFP, so if you were concerned that the ANC was killing members of the IFP, why did you not identify those ANC people and go to Boipatong to kill them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, if you follow this up very carefully I will say that there was no time for us to go to those people, call upon them and talk to them because we too were afraid and one would not know when one was going to be attacked.

MR BERGER: I think what you're being asked is this, not every resident of Boipatong was responsible for killing IFP members or the residents from Kwamadala Hostel, now what you're being asked is why did you not go out into the township and only target those individuals who were responsible for the attack on the residents of Kwamadala Hostel or the IFP?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would say that I personally know that nobody had knowledge who was doing this but it was generally known that it was the ANC that was launching the attacks.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you can't run away from IFP structures.  If you claim to have been a leader of the IFP you would know the structure of the IFP both in Kwamadala as well as in the Province as well as in the country, you would know what the various structures are, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, yes that is correct but I would like to explain that myself being Victor was not so much concentrating on the politics because many of us are not educated, we did not have the opportunity to acquire education and it is for that reason that I am saying I was not concentrating on political matters.  There were other things that I had to do like looking after my family and my children.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, it's your contention that your actions that night at Boipatong were political, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct Sir, because people who were in conflict were the ANC and the IFP.

MR BERGER: Well then if this was a political problem between the ANC and the IFP, you as a leader of the IFP would have known of the IFP structures that were available to you, that you could have gone to determine who in the ANC was responsible for these killings or at least who in the ANC was in control in Boipatong, you say that you couldn't have done that?