Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: has testified that they left me for last, notwithstanding the fact that my name was mentioned, so I knew that if I'd stayed back in this country, to save my own neck I will have to get out.  That was my first priority.  Or take the easy way out and make Almond Nofomela a liar.  I decided to go to save my own neck, and not make ailment a liar, and leave the country through the help of Jacques Paux, and a Captain Andre Simon, who worked with IDASA, who then made contact with the ANC in Lusaka, and acted as middleman for me.  The only message I received back was that they were prepared to listen to my story with no promises at all.  I then, two weeks thereafter, was still not approached by the McNally Commission, and on the 5th of November, the Sunday morning, I left for Mauritius with the journalist, Jacques Paux, to first give my full story to him on Mauritius, before proceeding to London on the 8th, where I've met Mr Jacob Zuma and Mr JJ Njele of the ANC on the 9th of November 1989.

MR JANSEN: Your contact with the ANC at the time, was that the first organisation that you had contact with where black people were in prominent positions and in positions of command?

WITNESS:   The first ever in my life, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Since your return to the country in 1993 you have had a meeting with a relative of Mr Mxenge's, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That is correct, Mr Chairman, and that was after the 4th of - I returned on the 4th of July 1993, and I think it was early '94, round about February, that I met with Dr Mxenge, one of the brothers.

MR JANSEN: What is your present attitude towards what you did to the Mxenge family?

WITNESS:   An extreme mixed emotions of 	/anger,

MR JANSEN: anger, deep-seated anger, for allowing me to get involved

MR JANSEN: with this, all this nonsense - humiliation, embarrassment, and a helplessness of a pathetic, "I am sorry for what I've done," and I can do nothing else to them.  What else can I offer them?  A pathetic nothing, so in all honesty I don't expect the Mxenge family to forgive me, because I don't know how I ever in my life would be able to forgive a man like Dirk Coetzee if he's done to me what I've done to them.  But I will hope that this will be the beginning of a new era in my life.  I can just turn my back on it and walk on.

MR JANSEN: Since leaving the country in 1989 what have you - what have you been keeping yourself busy with?

WITNESS:   Well, whilst in exile I was not at all active involved with any ANC activities, although the ANC cared for me well with an allowance that they gave to me and my two sons, and dedicate my life that through the media, where the pen is mightier than the sword, after I've seen what I was up against in the McNally and Harms Commission, determined to expose the truth about this country's horrible past, the small bit that I can contribute towards it.  In person I've gained nothing.  I've lost all I had.  I am 51 years old, I haven't got a house, a car.  Not I think that I deserve one, I am just saying.  I didn't end up with golden handshakes of R1,2 million and R2 million, and luxuries.  But until the day I die my soul won't rest until the truth about the past of the apartheid era is not out to the world, and the other beloved ones who lost beloved ones in this horrible era of absurdheid - until that's out.

MR JANSEN: And since you returned to the country what steps

MR JANSEN: /have you

MR JANSEN: have you taken to ensure that the truth comes out?

MR JANSEN: Well, I for instance went to the Judge Richard Goldstone.  I introduced Joe Mamasela the second week in August 1994 to Dr Jan D'Oliveira's office, and more specific to Director Ivor Human and Advocate Antoinette de Jager.

MR JANSEN: Could you just elaborate on the circumstances in which you introduced Joe Mamasela to the Attorney-General?

WITNESS:   The Attorney-General's office couldn't get access to - they couldn't access Joe Mamasela, he was very evasive, and I had met with him in '93, December.  We became on a very good footing again, and I convinced him to open up and come forward and just meet with the guys, and then decide for himself about the future, because I can assure him that he will not be able to make peace with his past until such time as the truth comes out.  When I was approached then by the Commission I did set up a meeting.  It took place in my house, and did Joe come, and from there onwards they started working independently of myself.  I also assisted the Commission in getting access to Matthew Mabisera, one of the three labourers on the farm, who was an ex so-called Rhodesian freedom fighter.  There were three based on the farm.  And he also did not want to speak to the investigation team, special investigation team of Jan D'Oliveira.  I took them to Matthew's house on two occasions, and introduced - and convinced him to work with the team, which he did eventually.

MR JANSEN: You also had a meeting with Eugene de Kock at some stage, is that correct?

WITNESS:   I did, Mr Chairman.  I, through Joe Mamasela, on the 28th of December 1983, had a meeting with Gene de Kock at the Midland ...

MR JANSEN: /(intervention)

MR JANSEN: (intervention)

MR JANSEN: Sorry, is that 19 - you said 1983?

WITNESS:   In 1993, I am sorry, at the ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On the 23rd of November?

WITNESS:   On the 28th of December 1993, at the Pizza Hut at the Menlyn Hyperama, where Joe Mamasela and myself were present.  At a stage Captain Balletjies Bellingham also came in and he drank coffee with us.  I tried to convince de Kock to see the light at the end of the tunnel, to convince him that the war is over, and that the only way out is to open up about the truth, but I could see that I was not making any impression on him.  He did, however, arrange for another meeting two days later through Joe Mamasela, but he never turned up, and that was the last that I saw of him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   I should also just mention that I met up with Paul van Dyk, who went off as a major.  I made contact with him and Captain Flip de Beer, who is presently charged with the murder in Komatipoort, on several occasions, three or four, and tried to convey the message to them too.  They on the other hand also arranged a meeting with a Colonel Geysber and another ex Security - or Security Policeman, whom I conveyed the same message to.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of all this?

WITNESS:   To try and convince them that the sooner we all stand up for the truth, Mr Chairman, the sooner the truth will get out and we can get the past behind us, because the only way we can make peace with our past is to talk about it, to know what it was all about, and before we can bury the past we must know what to bury.

MR JANSEN: Colonel de Kock was, among other charges,

MR JANSEN: /convicted

MR JANSEN: convicted of an attempt on your life, is that correct?

MR JANSEN: ---   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Were there any other attempts on your life?

WITNESS:   There was - well, one well documented one in Britain, Mr Chairman, when on the 11th of April 1992 Captain Pamela du Rand and Lieutenant Leon Flores met with the Ulster Royalists, terrorists in Northern Ireland, to negotiate a contract murder on my life.  They were eventually arrested on the 15th of April 1992 by Scotland Yard, and held at the Paddington Green Police Station under the Terrorism Act.  A lot of communiques went out between the ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 3) ... of all these attempts, and to know that I am one step ahead.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, there is just one issue as far as the facts concerning Vlakplaas which I omitted to ask at the time, if I could just ask that question now.  What kind of firearms did the members of Vlakplaas normally carry with them?