Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR CORNELIUS: But tell us, how do you know that this AK47 comes from Vlakplaas?  Explain that to us.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said that is what I think, it was coming from Vlakplaas because they would carry them to the car and take them with wherever they go.  As far as I think, this also was coming from Vlakplaas.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, but you are speculating, Mr Nofomela, don't think where the weapon came from.  Was an AK47 taken from Vlakplaas or not?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know where it came from.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, but why don't you testify that, why do you state as a certainty it came from Vlakplaas, and now you don't know where it came from?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is what I am saying because all the time there would be AK47 rifles that were taken with and handgrenades were taken with.  I am saying this from experience.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, yes, but we are talking about one isolated incident now.  Are you saying there were handgrenades as well, or is that just part of your speculation?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am not saying that, but you asked for my comment.  You did not want me to be specific, but you just wanted me to comment to the statement.  Then if you reject that, do not say that that is the confirmation that I have.  I am not saying for sure, but I was just commenting as you had asked me.

MR CORNELIUS: That's a crafty legal argument.  Where was this AK47 given to Simon Radebe - who was the AK47 given to, do you know?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not remember who gave it to him, but Nortje was also involved in distributing the firearms.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, now where did this distribution take place?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: At the base, at CR Swart.

MR CORNELIUS: Prior to leaving that night, when you drove the kombi with the member in, is that correct or not?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question.

MR CORNELIUS: Was that prior to you leaving and driving the members in the kombi or not?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: How many pistols were given out, do you know?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot remember, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: And how many AK47 rifles?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I saw only AK47 rifle.

MR CORNELIUS: But normally you find that the policemen at Vlakplaas are issues with their own weapons, why was it necessary at this incident to hand out handguns?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Some of them were askaris, therefore they were not handling any firearms.

MR CORNELIUS: And you say the AK47 rifle was also given at CR Swart to Simon Radebe?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said I do not know to whom it was given, but I saw it when it was given out.

MR CORNELIUS: But you can't remember who gave the weapons out, was it de Kock?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I have already said that I remember very well that Mr Nortje was involved in the distributing of firearms and I do not know to whom did he give a particular weapon.

MR CORNELIUS: But Nortje didn't keep the AK47 for himself, he gave it out to somebody, according to your testimony.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I've already said that.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.  Because it's strange you know, Nortje in his amnesty application says that he gave the AK47 to Simon Radebe at the bridge.

MR CORNELIUS: I do not know that.

MR CORNELIUS: But he has no reason to lie about it, do you agree?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: What could be the reason for him not to lie?

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, if the weapon was given at the bridge, it was given at the bridge, why would he deny that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Where did I say that?  Because I saw him giving it to one of them who was going to shoot.  He was given the AK47 at the base next to the Dog Unit.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you think of any reason why Mr Eugene de Kock did not apply for amnesty for this case, this incident?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That question can be directed to him, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, but you will find it strange because he's applied in various other instances for amnesty, but not in this one.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I don't think that concerns me, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Well I'll give you the answer.  It's because Mr de Kock says that at that time, when this incident took place, when the shooting took place, he was sleeping, he was at CR Swart, the base camp.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Sleeping at the CR Swart base?

MR CORNELIUS: Do you have a problem in following my statement?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I do not understand, just repeat it please.

MR CORNELIUS: You just repeated it for me, you said yes, sleeping at the base.  Are you surprised at my statement?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, it is a surprise.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.  Now is Mr de Kock lying when he says he was sleeping at the base when the shooting incident took place?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, he is lying, definitely.

MR CORNELIUS: Why?  Why should he lie about it, he was not present and there's four other witnesses that can testify to that.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am saying he was present, I wouldn't be with him whereas I was under his - I wouldn't be there with him and join the other people, coming all the way from Vlakplaas under his jurisdiction and join the other people, without being instructed by them.  I was not under Nortje and the others here in Durban, I was under Mr de Kock.  Therefore everything - he was my commander, he's the one who was supposed to tell me that join these people or just stay.  If he was asleep, what would I be doing there transporting the people without getting an instruction from him?

MR CORNELIUS: That's a very elaborate answer, but Mr Vermeulen, Mr Nortje, Mr Bosch, Mr Frank McCarter, will testify that de Kock was not at the scene.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is their business, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Now are you saying they're lying?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As far as I am concerned they are lying.

MR CORNELIUS: It might be that you're mistaken.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I'm not mistaken, I am sure, I am certain.

MR CORNELIUS: And furthermore, my client will deny that there was ever an instruction issued to kill the comrades.  Do you have any comment on that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Will you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: My client as well as the witnesses, will deny that there was ever an instruction issued that the comrades should be killed.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I can say I don't know why should I bother myself making an application, knowing very well that people were going to be killed whereas I would be lying.  I do not know why would I make that application, not unless I am insane.  How did I know that people were going to be killed if the people were not going to be killed?

MR CORNELIUS: You testified in the Supreme Court against Mr de Kock, is that correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Please elaborate on that, about what?  About this Chesterville incident or what?

MR CORNELIUS: Did you testify against Mr de Kock in the Supreme Court?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I did.

MR CORNELIUS: And do you remember remarks by the judge regarding perjury?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I do not remember, please remind me.

MR CORNELIUS: I will control the record and then I will, with the consent of the Committee, put those questions from the record to you at a later stage.  Now when de Kock said you should not go to the scene because people will be shot, could it be that it was said that it's a dangerous situation where you should not be involved in?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: A dangerous situation, do you mean that it could be that he was protecting me?  I do not understand your question, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, that he was protecting you, saying that you shouldn't be involved in the operations of Vlakplaas.