Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

MR VAN ZYL: It is in Jo'burg, Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: But I assume you remember - most people could remember, when I used to the bank I used to go to such and such a place.  I remember it was in that street in that suburb.  Most people could tell you that about facts relating to 20 years ago in their life.

MR VAN ZYL: Unfortunately I am not one of those people, Mr Chairperson.  I can tell you where my current bank accounts are, I can tell you where it's been for the past 10 years.  Where it was at that stage, I do not know.

UNKNOWN: Did you have an overseas account then?

MR VAN ZYL: Not at all.

UNKNOWN: Do you have one now?

MR VAN ZYL: I do.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall how often you made deposits into the Incom account?

MR VAN ZYL: No idea, Mr Chairperson.  I must just say that no money that I received from the Defence Force was ever deposited into that account, but no money.

UNKNOWN: Which account?

MR VAN ZYL: In the Incom account.

UNKNOWN: And your personal account?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, because that was part of my salary.

UNKNOWN: Now dealing with the monkey foetus incident, do I understand your evidence to be that this was a once off event and not part of a programme of Region 6 or CCB activities directed against Bishop Tutu?

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, my evidence was that I received specific instructions from the Regional Manager, to take the monkey foetus to Cape Town, where it would be hung up in the garden of Bishop Tutu.  My evidence was further that I did no "aanbieding" in this regard, it was an instruction that I followed.  What the aim of it was, I do not know.

UNKNOWN: As you sit here now, do I understand your view to be that you can't really work out the sense of that plan, in fact it seems a bit stupid, but you agreed to go along with it because these were your orders?

MR VAN ZYL: I gave evidence about this during the Basson matter and I did not see it as a joke.  You're telling me that I thought it was stupid.  I do not see it as a joke, I do not see it as stupid, it was an instruction that I received, it was a foetus that I received and I executed the instruction.  It is as simple as that.

UNKNOWN: In other words you thought it made sense?  The understood the logic of the plan.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, the witness has answered, but I think this is an appropriate time, I do not want to continuously object.  I thought that these hearings have been called for on the acts of amnesty applied for in respect of conspiracy on Minister Omar, conspiracy to murder Evans and the Early Learning Centre.  I thought the Commission has ruled that the application in relation to the foetus is going to be dealt with in chambers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, might I refresh Mr Martini's memory.  When this issue came up with Col Verster it was debated in that context and questions were allowed insofar as is relevant to the whole nature of the application that's before you, insofar as it's relevant to credibility.  And I'd like to proceed on that basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
	Mr van Zyl, I'm not asking you whether you thought it was a joke, I'm asking you whether you thought the plan made any sense to you.

MR VAN ZYL: The instruction that I received was executed by me, to a degree it was a low risk instruction.  How can I put it to you, an instruction probably makes sense to you.  The fact that I did not know what - if there had been an aim behind the instruction of the monkey foetus and what this aim was, does not necessarily make is senseless to me.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, do you agree with me, not every day in one's life people come and tell you that you must go and hang a monkey foetus in someone's tree and that you must knock certain nails that have been treated by a witch-doctor down the side of their driveway.  It's the kind of thing that people think "If you're asking me to do this, why must I do it, does it have a purpose?"  Did those thoughts cross your mind at the time?

MR VAN ZYL: It did.

UNKNOWN: And what did you think to yourself, did you think there are some brilliant people up in Pretoria who've come up with a fantastic scheme, or did you think this doesn't make any sense to me?  What did you think?

MR VAN ZYL: My impressions were that it was possibly a phase of a project, but I received no information or gathered no information regarding this and I didn't ask anyone about it.

UNKNOWN: What do you think as you sit here today?

MR VAN ZYL: I do not know what to think.

UNKNOWN: You don't know what to think.  You can't express an opinion, whether it was a stupid plan, an intelligent plan, you've got no opinion.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, he said he didn't know what the plan was behind it.  He says he got an instruction to hang the foetus, he says he has no knowledge of what the plan was, whether it was initiating some sort of other plan, so how can he express an opinion?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said that he can't, he hasn't got an opinion on it.

UNKNOWN: Do you agree that the purpose of the plan was to intimidate Bishop Tutu?

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: Do you agree that intimidation is a crime?

MR VAN ZYL: It could be.

UNKNOWN: You obviously discussed the nature of the plan with Ferdie Barnard because you brought him in to assist.

MR VAN ZYL: I mentioned to Ferdie Barnard that I wanted him to accompany me, that we had to hand the monkey foetus and I asked him to put the nails in the driveway, but I did not tell him what the aim of the exercise was because I didn't know what it was.  That is the only thing that I discussed with him, that he should accompany me and that he should help me.

UNKNOWN: Can you think of any motive that Mr Barnard might have to tell lies about what you told him in relation to the monkey foetus project.

MR VAN ZYL: I do not know what he said.

UNKNOWN: No, no, I'm not asking you if you know what he said, I'm asking you can you think of any motive that he would have to tell lies about what you told him in relation to the purpose of this project.

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot that there was any motive, but I do not know what he said.

UNKNOWN: 'Cause you want to wait and see what he says.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, surely he must either put what the witness is going to say, how can this be a fair question to the witness?  We don't know what Mr Barnard is going to say.  Either Mr Kahanovitz must put it to him and say "Do you agree with it, is it a lie?"  Not just leave it in the air.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I'm putting it like that for an obvious reason, this witness waits to see what the person says and then he tells you why it is that it's said in that way.  So I want to know before I put it to him what Mr Barnard says, whether Mr Barnard has any reason to tell lies about that event.

MR MARTINI: Well that's an unfair question, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ... what he can say about what Mr Barnard thinks, but I also can't on the other hand see any harm in answering the question.

MR LAX: Perhaps you could put the question in a different way.  "Did Barnard have any reason to lie about you?  Was your relationship bad?"

MR VAN ZYL: No, I don't believe so.

UNKNOWN: In fact, Mr van Zyl, you'd gone out of your way as I understand it, to help Mr Barnard at the time that he was in need of financial assistance.  He needed work.  He'd come to you and he'd told you that he was down on his luck and he needed work.

MR VAN ZYL: He helped me, and I gave evidence in this regard yesterday.

UNKNOWN: No, no, but what you haven't testified about was the fact that Mr Barnard needed money at the time, that was one of the reasons why he was willing to help you.