Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, if that's the Commission's view of it, that Peens is not implicated, I wasn't sure about that and that's why ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: My notes may not be accurate, but I do not recall this witness mentioning the name of Peens.

MR BOTHA: No, not at all, Mr Chairman, the fact is that Nosenga mentioned Peens as one of the people inside the Casspir.  And as this witness is not able to exclude the possibility, I thought it best ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: To do what?

MR BOTHA: I thought it best to cross-examine him on that.  But if it's ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Unless the suggestion is that the people who were at the back of the truck, I mean of the Koyoco that he saw, amongst others was Mr Peens.

MR BOTHA: No, that's not the version that he gave and that's neither the version of Mr Peens.

CHAIRPERSON: Then what's the point?

MR BOTHA: That will be all then, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA

MS TANZER: ... father Patrick phone you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was not looking at the time, it could have been around 6 in the early evening, 7 or 8, I'm not quite sure, I cannot remember.  It was in the evening.

MS TANZER: Did he tell you how he knew of the imminent attack, from where his sources came?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Father knows many people.  He is known by many people who are able to tell him if there is something, to warn him, not that he would have to do anything and then he phoned to inform me about that, so that I too could pass the information on and that I could protect my children.

MS TANZER: So did he hear of the attack only on that date, or had he heard of it earlier?  Had he heard of an imminent attack taking place, earlier than the 17th?  Let me rephrase that.  Rumours of an attack taken place or being spread, earlier than the 17th.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, we had not heard anything before that.

MS TANZER: Now besides Father Patrick, were there any other rumours regarding an imminent attack on Boipatong?  Was there any other talk of an attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We were always on the lookout.

MS TANZER: ... Kwamadala Hostel dwellers and the members of the South African Police Force, during the 1991/1992 period?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know anything about that.

MS TANZER: So you were not aware of any kind of collusion between Inkatha members and the police?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I don't know whether there was this collusion.

MS TANZER: Did you suspect that there was some kind of collusion, was there like a suspicion amongst the Boipatong residents that the IFP and the police had some kind of relationship?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They may have thought so, but I for one, concluded or should I say came to realise that there was this collusion between the two on the day of the attack.

MS TANZER: Did policemen frequent the Boipatong location during the early '90's, 1991/'92 period?  Did they used to come often into the location or did they keep away?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They used to come.  They used to come, they were not barred, but they were not in good books of the people of the township.

MS TANZER: Were any policemen known to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean apart from his son?

MS TANZER: Apart from his son, obviously.  Were any policemen, during 1992 or in the 1991 period, known to you, as the Chair said, apart from your son or family relatives?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I know them, I used to see them, but I had no association with them.

MS TANZER: Did you ever hear of a policeman named Peens or called by the name Peens?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No.

MS TANZER: Did you ever hear of a policeman named Tshaka, called Tshaka?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was hearing that for the first time here at the Commission.

MS TANZER: ...(no audible question)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That as well.

MS TANZER: On the night of the attack, did you notice the attackers putting the stolen loot into the police vehicles that you described?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were carrying these things.  I did not see them load these, the loot in into the police vehicles.

MS TANZER: What was the relationship like between Dodudu and Mtwana Zulu in 1992, at the time of the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from the fact that Dodudu was part of a traditional dance club?

MS TANZER: Yes.  It was a good relationship?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Very much so.

MS TANZER: And what was the relationship between yourself and Mtwana Zulu like, during the 1992 period? -in fact about June 1992.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We were not seeing eye-to-eye anymore because things had turned difficult.

ADV SIGODI: No, I don't think the way I understand it, it's a correct interpretation.  The witness said ...(Sotho), not to say that they didn't see eye-to-eye. ...(no further audible statement) ... put that again.

INTERPRETER: Thank you, Chairperson.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying during that very same year the contact between the two of us had since broken.

MS TANZER: Had Mtwana Zulu been in your house before?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Before?  What do you mean?

MS TANZER: Well had he been in your house, in your home, in your living-room, as a guest?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, not in the dining-room.  I am saying we are in good terms and his children usually come to my place.

MS TANZER: Did you not take Father Patrick's warning seriously because of the relationship between Mtwana Zulu and yourselves having family in Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat the question please.

MS TANZER: Well, ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw it as important.  I took it seriously, but there was nothing I could do because we had not yet been attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Was part of this crowd that you had seen earlier on, still going past your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they were still passing by.
THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROBLEM WITH THE MECHANICAL RECORDING - EVIDENCE IS REPEATED BUT QUESTIONS DO NOT FOLLOW IN SEQUENCE ON ENGLISH ONLY AND ENGLISH AND FLOOR TAPES

MS TANZER: The people who came to fetch the corpse, you said in a Koyoco, were they dressed in black tracksuits?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Not corpses, a corpse, one.

MS TANZER: Was that cop(sic) dressed in a black tracksuit? (English only tape - inaudible on English/Floor tape)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: ...(no English interpretation).

MS TANZER: And that is the same ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MS TANZER: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking about a corpse being dressed in black.

MS TANZER: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: No, but that's what you put to him.

MS TANZER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: I put to him that the policeman in the Koyoco, when they came to fetch the ....(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, Ms Tanzer said "cop", not corpse, but perhaps it got lost in the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

MS TANZER: I'll rephrase the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps let's just stick to the word "police officer".

MS TANZER: Yes.  Did the police officer or officers who came to fetch the corpse, in the Koyoco after the attack, were they wearing black tracksuits?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, only the white police officer was wearing a black tracksuit, but the black officer was wearing a police uniform.  And they had come to fetch only one corpse.

MS TANZER: Now you put the two together when you mentioned in your evidence that you also noticed the police office, or white men on the street, running on the side in black tracksuits.  Was that your evidence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I said I associated them with this one who was wearing a black tracksuit and I noticed that the other ones were white as well.

MS TANZER: Did you notice police vehicles driving slowly through the Boipatong location, moving alongside the attackers?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: In the township?