Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, M'Lord.  And upon that, Mr Masupa, that
is Hendrik, answered arrogantly and started telling us that he knew all about our moves, places we sleep in and he knew how to deal with us and he was going to inform Sfuti and we must know now that they know of us, we won't be a neck or we won't bother them anymore with our searches that we used to do.  And we usually on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays, there was this routine that we normally undergone to search shebeens and rid of weapons of that that were carried by our fellow citizens.  So that whatever happens after that they could not kill one another.  So he started boasting that we won't be able to bother them anymore about that, because we were going in.  
	That infuriated us and we felt that something must be done and it had to be done drastically. Because in one of the days, a week before or so, we were standing in the very - it is a bigger complex, we were standing on the other end, and the very same man we had just passed on the doorway, he came and described me with the tooth that I am having here.  I had a knock and it changed or tainted the colour of my teeth, and he said he knew now that that, he used my name that was not known to people outside the ranks, that is Barrah-Barrah, because they often said I don't laugh.  So they used that very name and described that the one with the pinkish tooth and immediately I saw that he was accosting me and I ran off.  Upon us researching and trying to gather information as to how did it come about with this description and the name, we were told that before he came to this other end, he had stopped on that other end to speak to Mr Masupa.  As he boasted about this now, the whole thing came into a pattern.  We now realised that what we were dealing with was someone who had gone out of the way to 
inform about us and our activities.
	We then decided to fight him but fighting him physically was not good anyway, because there were many, as you would be aware, there are two - it's a two-storey place, on the top is a shebeen and beneath it is a cafe where food and other materials is being sold.  So there are many people there and workers who were there. So they started coming in, all of them on top of us.   Upon that scuffle two Casspirs accosted that area and we ran off.
	When we ran off we decided that it was time that we talked and read a public lesson, that first, he cannot live with us and yet work for the other side. It is then that we decided to go and purchase fuel and we came back with that fuel.  As it was the culture then, we decided to go and burn down where he laid his head, meaning his home.   
	When we reached that place we knocked and we were asked who are you, and we responded "comrades".  The door was opened and we then informed them of our intentions.  Angry as we were, whilst I was informing them of our intentions, petrol was poured to the floor and I asked my comrade to wait so that we could evacuate people inside.  But in that confusion a stick of match was lit. I extinguished it and I tried to plead with the people to go out, but seemingly their attitude had been that having known us, as we are from the very same area, they thought either we are bluffing or as they usually referred to us, because we were many of us who had been comrades, for that matter, had been referred to as "(...indistinct)", because either at home we wouldn't have, we didn't have enough money to be dressed neatly like our counterparts, or they were so fortunate to have a cafe 
and a shebeen on top, so they could afford.  
	So we were demeaned in words and we felt that this could not go on any longer.  As I was talking, my comrades were angry, I was angry myself but what we wanted to do was to burn down the house, so as to indicate that anyone who should not even dare think of selling us out to the security. 
	The second stick was lit. I managed as well to extinguish that stick, and I tried to talk to the people.  The stove was on, as I remember very well, it was hot.  It was red, in fact, on top, and I even thought that the way this had created a smell of petrol in the house, it was going to explode. So I pleaded with people to hurry up and get out.  But it couldn't happen.  
	Finally, I couldn't catch the other stick.  It came in front of me and it touched the fuel.  We were all inside the house and the house was in flames.  
	The door was closed and the door lock had broken.  It was not in proper shape, that one could just pull it once and open.  So we fought with the door as the house was in fire.  I was in flames.  Apparently when the fuel was poured, the comrade was pouring petrol on the floor.  He had initially poured petrol in my legs.  I was wearing a cotton sock.  So it absorbed a lot of petrol.  I was in flames as well.  
	Ultimately I managed to put my finger in and pressed it against the door, the door lock, because it had two holes, but it had broken in-between, so I managed to push it in and open whilst I was in flame.  The door was opened.  We all moved out.  
	That is the last time I left the scene.  We ran out,
probably a sound of windows breaking down, I could hear it whilst we were walking away and people screaming.

MR CURRIN: In your evidence - sorry.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Currin, sorry.  You ran away while you were in flames, your clothes wetted with petrol?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, I suffered burn injuries as a result. I had to be hospitalised and upon being hospitalised I met the family of the victims and the deceased in the hospital. I was there as well.

ADV DE JAGER: How did you extinguish the flames?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Upon getting out in the gate, is a gravel, I should say, it is the gravel road.  I managed to pour soil on top of the flames and my comrades helped me to extinguish the flames that were in my clothes.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, just as a matter of information, I am not sure whether Mr Black has informed you that we do have a copy of the entire court record, which we would, obviously, make available to you.  In that record there is evidence about the fact that Mr Ndlovu did suffer burn wounds and was hospitalised.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Currin, why wasn't this court record made available to us before the hearing started, so that we could study it and put questions about it?

MR CURRIN: I didn't know until very recently that you didn't have a copy of the record.  This was my copy of my record and I did not ...

ADV DE JAGER: I was present last week when we were phoned about it and we requested to forward a copy of the record, if you had one in your possession and we never received it.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, I was in Lesotho unfortunately.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, your assistant - Mr Black spoke to her ...(intervention)

MR CURRIN: Yes, but I had the record with me.  So I was in Cape Town and then I went to Lesotho and I had the record with me for my own preparation purposes.  I was unaware of the fact until the last, I think yesterday or the day before, did I find out that you in fact didn't have a copy of the record.  My assistant tells me that Mr Kleynhans of the indemnity office also has a copy of this record and that your Committee and personnel were referred to Mr Kleynhans' office to get yourselves a copy from - before Mr Black got involved, right from when the application was originally lodged.
	Be that as it may, as I say I am - there are two volumes which are not all that extensive which deal comprehensively with the evidence and I will, since you obviously don't have your own copy, which I heard, as I say when I was in Lesotho, I will make it available to you to give you an opportunity to study it thoroughly and I will also indicate during the course of the evidence the extent or those aspects of the testimony which differ from that at the hearing so that you are aware of those differences.