Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

UNKNOWN: According to Jikila's affidavit on page 11, he states that he was severely assaulted by your group and that, to an extent that he suffered a broken rib.  Do you know how he sustained a broken rib if he was just slapped and covered with a tube on his face?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I do not recall a rib being broken, but he was severely assaulted, yes and even when I was out, I had left the room, the tubing would continue, but I do not recall the broken rib issue.

JUDGE DE JAGER: In his evidence-in-chief ...(indistinct) he was also hit with fists, I don't know whether - slapped and hit with fists.

UNKNOWN: I did not get that evidence Chairperson and he also has not mentioned it now because I was going to go further and ask him.  Mr Jikila, I've just been - sorry, Mr Thejane, I've just been corrected that you did mention that Mr Jikila was also hit with fists during the torturing.  What I also want to know, besides using fists and slapping a person and a tube method, how else would his rib have been broken?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I would not believe him when he says that.  The people who were being tubed would be wrapped in a blanket and they would be pressurised, they would be pressed down.

UNKNOWN: Did you kick him at any time?  Was he kicked?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I do not recall being kicked, but I recall the tubing.

UNKNOWN: Did you apply any electrical shocks when you tortured your victims, or your detainees?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We did not use the electrocution methods.
Maybe the other floors used that method, but we used the tube method.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions Chairperson thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Anything?

ADV SANDI: Just one factual issue.  Mr Samuel, does your client know whether his brother was assaulted and tortured as alleged by the applicant, does he know about this?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Chairperson, my client does know that his brother was tortured, in fact I did consult with his brother myself and he did disclose a few things to me when I took down his statement.  Unfortunately due to work commitments, he could not be present today and he indicated that he would only be present tomorrow.  Some of the evidence that is coming forth now from the applicant, is contrary to what my client, the brother, indicated to me earlier on.  I do not know whether I would get another opportunity perhaps tomorrow to continue with my cross-examination on his part, you know, on the part that is contrary to what my client said to me earlier on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why don't you put it to him now?  You've got an affidavit or a statement by your other client, put it to him where they differ.

MR SAMUEL: With the leave of the Committee, I will proceed to do that.  I thought I was still on the floor when the Evidence Leader was given a chance.  What I indicated earlier on ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I didn't understand, I understood you to say you are finished, I'm terribly sorry.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Before I move to Norman Choane, let us just go back to Abel Choane.  It is my instructions to put to you that my client Abel Choane was never an Askari, what is your comment on that?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: When I had just arrived here in Bloemfontein there was a Sergeant called Selai.  They were working together.  They used to go together to Klerksdorp and the white people from the Special Branch did not - the conditions under which he worked were not nice and he disappeared, but he told Sgt Selai about the girlfriend that he had in exile, he had an AK47 that he left outside the country.  Mr Selai explained all this to me, I did not know him, but he was telling me about him.

MR SAMUEL: So you were only told that Abel Choane is an Askari, or was an Askari?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, I was told.

MR SAMUEL: Let's go to the torture of, because I have a few questions just on that one, the torture of Mr Jikila.  You stated that the only method that you used was the tubing and that is on the fifth floor where you were and you said you do not know about the other floors, what type of torture they used.  Are you then saying that the torture did not only take place on that floor, it took place throughout the whole building, from you know - at different angles?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, I think so because that was a big building.  It's not only us who took him.  People like Booysen Motsamai also had a chance to take him.

MR SAMUEL: So the fact that he had a broken rib after one of these tortures, you wouldn't deny that, save for denying that you administered that type of torture?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, it could happen, but I do not recall during our torture his rib breaking.

MR SAMUEL: Could you just help me?  After the torture on Jikila, where was he taken?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He was still under Section 29, we took him back to Botshabelo.  It's possible that he might have broken his ribs because during the time we would fetch him from the cells, he tried to escape and he was hitting against the bars of the cells.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Surely you can't see when a rib is broken.  It could happen with the hit of a fist.  It could happen and you can't see it, it's not obvious like a tree being broken, you can see it's broken, it's inside the person's body, you don't know whether he had a broken rib so you can't dispute that.

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It's true, I did not see it break.

MR SAMUEL: Looking at Jikila's affidavit or statement, and I quote.  He says:  "I sustained a broken rib.  Among the members of the Security Police who assaulted me, David Thejane who is the applicant in this matter, was present."
Would you agree with me that what he suggests there is that during the assault where he sustained this broken rib, you were present and you could have administered that type of an assault?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, it doesn't suggest that.  He says when he was assaulted, he was present, but he would have said he lifted a hand, or something like that.  He doesn't say that.  I don't in any event read that into that sentence you have just read.

MR SAMUEL: I will refrain from the question then because Mr Chair, that was looking at the paragraph, that was my understanding of the implication created there, but I will then move to Norman Choane.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you ask the question, how is it spelled?  C-H-O-A or E?

ANSWER: A.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: Could you briefly discuss or just explain to me to refresh me, how Norman was tortured?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Surely he shouldn't repeat his whole evidence-in-chief.  He's told us that already, it's on record.  Didn't you take notes?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chair I did take notes but I'm trying to come to the discrepancy that it is the type of torture that he describes and the type of torture that my client ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well put the difference to him and let him answer.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Norman Choane instructs me that when he was tortured, during the torture that you claim to have been present, he was kicked and whilst lying on the floor, some of you and your colleagues were jumping up and about on his body. What's your comment on that?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We were on the ground floor with Norman Choane.  He was tortured.  He was placed on a seat, as I am sitting now.  If I remember well, his hands were tied behind the chair and he was being slapped.

MR SAMUEL: Where exactly was that kind of torture that you're describing, where did it take place, on the ground floor or on the fifth floor where you used to administer yours?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I don't recall but I think it was on the ground floor because we were waiting for Col de Kock to come and tell them under which circumstances they were arrested.  We were still on the ground floor and the offices on the other floors were closed because to gain entry one had to use numbers.