Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

RUSSELL ALLY: And from today, the way you see the situation today, how do you see the relationship between Moutse and what was then KwaNdebele?  How do you see the relationships now?

UNKNOWN: There is a good understanding between the Moutse people and the KwaNdebele people because even now all the meetings we have we are in one region.  You name them ANC Women's League, Youth League, we have only one area, we call it Western Region.  That shows that we are living peacefully.  There is only one thing which is left among other old people who still have the vestiges of the past and there are very few.  We are in the process of trying to make amends.  I talked to Chief Mayisha that we wanted to plan so that we are able to call Moutse residents and KwaNdebele residents to bring them together into a Unity Festival.  Generally people live peacefully and they live together and they support each other.  Even in political organisations we MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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are in one area and we have no problems.  We call that the Western Region which is formed by KwaNdebele and Moutse.  That shows that there is a good relationship between the two areas.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Chief Mathebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yasmin.

YASMINE SOOKA: Chief, this morning we heard about from one of the witnesses that Imbokhoto actually started with many of the comrades belonging to Imbokhoto.  Now, I wonder if you could give us your perspective on what actually led to Imbokhoto getting involved in the violence, the role that the different security structures played in the violence in this area and then finally how do you see members of Imbokhoto still living in the community becoming integrated in the communities because at the end of the day, we still have to live with each other and there still seems to be an enormous amount of tension which exists between different groupings and Imbokhoto?

UNKNOWN: For how Imbokhoto started I would not explain it as being started by Imbokhoto Government.  We only started to know when they started to attack Moutse areas.  For Imbokhoto to come back and live peacefully with the Moutse and KwaNdebele residents, that is not going to be a problem.  We are saying we and the KwaNdebele people we are in one region in organisational structures.  Even at Verina where Imbokhoto sought refuge, ANC has a branch there.  I would say at a conference the year before last we held that at Verina.  So that area, Verina is called Imbokhoto Enclave.  That shows that we welcome them, that they are our people.  At that time they were used, but we have them in our meetings.  Therefore we will not have a
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problem of making Imbokhoto integrated in the various communities.  In all the structures we have them, we meet with them.  
 Not all of them would be able to be in the ANC because even the Sindunwa Party is still there and maybe it is just signs of bitterness, but I do not believe that would be a problem because we have civic organisations and ANC structures at that Imbokhoto Enclave.

YASMINE SOOKA: Your perspective on the role of the police and the army in the violence that took place in this area?

UNKNOWN: I tried to explain that in short that the police and the soldiers had a greater part with they played during the violence at that time.  The meeting which I spoke which was called by Gosie Mathebe, they through teargas.  It was the police and the soldiers together.  After that when the people dispersed at different areas they began to shoot with lead bullets where a 14 year old child Mpunageng was killed and he was shot running.  He was not even at that tribal kraal.  He was just running.  If there is confusion, if you run away you would not know where you are going. He was shot running to the mountain.
 That is what I said again that when Imbokhoto would take us from our houses, surprisingly we would be taken to the police vans.  We were taken by Imbokhoto at the houses.  That shows the relationship between Imbokhoto and the police and the soldiers.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce Seroke.

MS SEROKE: You tell us that people were beaten and harassed by Imbokhoto.  Were you harassed, were you tortured in the hands of Imbokhoto?  Can you explain to us?
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UNKNOWN: Yes, during that time when I said they took us at night.  We were brought at this Dennilton Police Station.  That is where we were beaten.  I survived because I gave them a wrong name by saying I am Simangie Mathebe and they were looking for Piet Mathebe.  During the day we were released.  After we were released one of them told them that Piet was there and during that day immediately they rushed to fetch me at home.  At that time they arrived, when they arrived at home they assaulted my mother asking her where are they because I used the wrong name by Simangie Mathebe.  That was my nickname when I was young and I am asking that you should not use that name.

MS SEROKE: You told us that the police and the soldiers were having a good relationship with Imbokhoto.  Who was financing Imbokhoto to exist, if you think, if you just think?

UNKNOWN: That question answers itself because the Chief Minister of KwaNdebele then and the Minister of Interior Makawe Ntolie were leading figures in KwaNdebele which means they were using Government funds to fund Imbokhoto.  You would not go to town to get the answer for that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Chief Mathebe, as we are trying to understand perspectives, you have quite eloquently explained to us the arguments against incorporation into KwaNdebele and you also talked about relationships with Lebowa, but you are saying people chose to stay with Central Government.  I just want to understand why people chose to stay with Central Government instead of Lebowa or KwaNdebele?

UNKNOWN: I tried to show earlier that at that time
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when they removed Moutse from Lebowa to Central at KwaNdebele it was during that time, it was in the 1980s and you know that at that time, the state of politics at that time.  We were the youth, we were conscious and we learnt that the homeland Governments were mickey mouse.  We wanted to be part of the entire South Africa.  It was then that we started to educate the old people that these things of saying you do not want to be in Lebowa, you do not want to be in Lebowa.  These are mickey mouse Governments.  We want to be at Central to fight for liberation whilst we are still in the Central Government.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Russell.

RUSSELL ALLY: Chief Mathebe, earlier you heard Ephraim Mogale speaking about the ANC and the role of MK and underground structures.  In the resistance of Moutse could you comment on that?  Do you know of any involvement of ANC or underground structures in that struggle or was it just the youth and the UDF?

UNKNOWN: The involvement of MK, I would not know, because I was not there then.  I joined MK later.  What happened before in our area, in Moutse, I would not know.  I would be telling a lie.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sorry, you said you joined MK later.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: What period are you speaking about?  When are you speaking about when you say you joined MK later.

UNKNOWN: 1987 Sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: And after that period, 1987, what role did the  underground structure of the ANC play?  Could you perhaps tell us a little bit about that, about after 1987, if you
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are prepared to?

UNKNOWN: I will be telling you a lie because I joined ANC, MK then I went into exile.  When I came back I was arrested in Johannesburg even before I arrived at Moutse.  So to know the role of the MK then in Moutse I would not know.