Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-06

MR RILEY: You were also involved, I assume, in various meetings about what was happening in the country at the time.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

MR RILEY: I must assume that you were involved in discussions with your comrades in arms and committee members in the PAC and APLA, about the developed and the route that the country was taking at the time.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

MR RILEY: A negotiated route.  The country was then moving in, at least the ANC at the time and the government of the day then were moving in the direction of negotiated settlement.  That's right?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

MR RILEY: Now in fact as far back as August of 1990, that is when you still seemed to not be a member of the ANC, but a supporter, at that time already the ANC and the government had signed what is known now as the Pretoria Minutes and the ANC agreed to suspend the armed struggle.  Do you recall that?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

MR RILEY: And you'll obviously then would agree that in 1999, 1991, apologies, Codesa started, we know that.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

MR RILEY: Now is it also not correct, Sir, that in fact on the 3rd of June 1993, at the multi-party forum, a date had already been set for the country's first non-racial, one person one vote elections which was supposed to take place on the 27th of April 1994, as it did in fact take place?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: I didn't hear of that at that time, Sir.

MR RILEY: How is that so, you were so heavily politicised at the time?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Sir, I said that I didn't hear of.  I heard about the date later that year.

MR RILEY: How is that possible, PAC was at the forefront of the armed struggle and the PAC was involved in what was going on in the country at the time?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: I didn't hear those news, Sir.

MR RILEY: How is that possible, Sir, that you didn't hear that news?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Actually Sir, at that time, in June 1993, it was when I was still busy with my training, so I didn't have newspapers or news to listen to, I was totally busy with my training at the time.  And the comrades who were in the negotiations, Bennie Alexander, the now called Khoisan X, I don't think they briefed us about that.

MR RILEY: Are we not sort of, Mr Henge, dealing here with a situation that maybe APLA, the PAC at the time, were not really interested in what was going on and you wanted to proceed with the armed struggle and the killing of innocent people?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I don't think it would be a fair question for him, because he was not in the leadership in the decision making, whether that was the intention of the PAC or APLA.  Then I think, Chairperson, it's only the leaders who did not suspend the armed struggle, but at the time PAC was still engaged in the armed struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that the PAC and APLA stopped their participation in the armed struggle on the 16th of January 1994.

MR RILEY: Thank you, Chair.  Did Mr Henge want to comment on that, Chair, or ...  I actually would have liked him to just comment on it.

CHAIRPERSON: Let him comment, I don't know if he wants to.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Actually Sir, I have no comment on that, as my representative already stated it.

MR RILEY: Thank you, Mr Henge.  Now Mr Henge, in regard to the particular incident that had occurred ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Before you go there, Mr Riley, may I just interpose for one second.
	Mr Henge, what was your attitude to the negotiations?  Your personal view.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: My personal view, Sir, on the negotiations was that they have to be faster, we have to see change immediately because we've been waiting for a very long time.  So that was my attitude towards the negotiations.

MR RILEY: Thank you.  Mr Henge, just on the aspect of your having been away on training, I regrettably and with the greatest of respect, want to put it to you that at the time when it became known when the elections would take place, all the people were talking about it and everyone knew about it.  What is your comment on that?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Actually Sir, on the time I don't recall everybody talking about the elections and at the time I only find that the youth has to be engaged in the armed struggle to put more pressure on the government, so that we can really see, because we've seen talks failing, the Codesa, the Groote Schuur talks and whatsoever talks, so we needed to see that this process is sailing faster.

MR RILEY: Mr Henge, I want to put it to you with the greatest of respect, that at the time when you launched this attack you knew very well that the elections were taking place and that the country was moving in the direction of, shall I use the term normalisation, things were normal.  The present government of the day, the previous government, all the parties were engaged in talks.  I want to put it to you, you knew that there was going to be elections and that things were moving forward.  Your shooting up a bus would have no effect on that.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: That's not true, Sir.

MR RILEY: Now in regard to the attack I just want to know from you, did I understand correctly that you, as you testified and was read to the Committee, you in fact were given an instruction to, in fact an order to shoot a Translux bus?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

MR RILEY: And did I understand correctly that you were the one who was to decide which bus to shoot?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: I was to decide which one to shoot between the two, yes Sir.

MR RILEY: And on what basis were you going to make that decision, Mr Henge?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: One, would we be safe first, would we be identified, because going on foot, because we never used a car, we went on foot to the spot because the location is not far from that.  So now after attacking the bus, when we retreat, would there be possibilities we'd be identified?  5 o'clock in the morning people are going to work, so people would see us on the way.  So the one that would be more appropriate is to go at least at 12 o'clock when most of the people are sleeping and that area is very quiet at that time.  So that is the criteria that I used to select that bus.

MR RILEY: Is it correct that you didn't know who was in the bus at that time?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: That's correct, Sir.

MR RILEY: Is it correct that it didn't matter to you who was in the bus at the time?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: At that time it did matter, Sir.

MR RILEY: Well if it did matter to you, how come you proceeded with the attack?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: I proceeded with the attack because I knew the people who were in the bus were people who are benefiting from the government directly or indirectly, Sir.

MR RILEY: Do you wish the Committee to understand that you were satisfied that there were only white people in that bus?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: If you want to use the term "white", yes Sir.

MR RILEY: Well on what basis did you come to that finding?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Actually I did my reconnaissance, Sir.  I went for, I think a week, looking at that bus, the people who are boarded it and as it was - as I mentioned, that was an order that was given to me, so I didn't make any comments or whatever of myself to tell about my feeling about the bus, but it was just an order that I was carrying out.

MR RILEY: I'm just trying to determine the issue of the fact that the main motivation for you was in fact that that bus was being used by white people.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: White people who were benefiting from the State, Sir.

MR RILEY: Yes.  So how were you so sure that that midnight bus would in fact only have white people on it?