bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

MS MASHININI: Tsietsi never joined the old organisations like ANC and PAC.  As he was SRC in South Africa he remained that.  Tsietsi was Black conscienstised and we are, in the house we are all ANC, fortunately.  But there are people who were with him and who knew how he got out of all African countries and got into Guinea.  Guinea is a Moslem country, there are no politics in there, so that is the first thing that demolished him, because he loved politics.  Now in Guinea there were no politics.  So he was isolated.  There are people who know about it, how he became isolated, only if they could say, because he didn't just decide I am going out of you Nigeria, I am going to Guinea, in fact Miriam Makeba was his rescue.  She took him to Guinea and I am happy about that and I still respect her for that.  And we will not know until somebody comes and tells us so and so, so and so did this and that and that.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mrs Mashinini I am not sure if your husband wants to add anything to what you have said.

MS MASHININI: We shall hear from him.

MR MASHININI: We are having the cry of our children.  We are crying for our children.  His children are not around
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
11 MR MASHININI
here and I believe their mother has been married to somebody else.  I wish, if it can happen, this Commission can help me I'd like those kids to come and stay with me until they have finished their schooling and until they can see they are living whatever way they can.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you know how many children there are and how old they are?

MR MASHININI: There are two girls.  I think one is about 11 and the other one about 16 I think.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  I think we are very, very sad to know that one of South Africa's heroes in fact did not come home and I think one of the sad stories about the '76 uprising is that even at this point in time we do not know how many young people didn't come home.  How many of them didn't enjoy the beginnings of this democracy that we have.  Our sympathies are with you, and we feel your pain and the loss because now as you see South Africa unfold you must be wondering why your son is not part of that as well.
 We are very, very happy that you have come forward to talk to the Commission.  We cannot promise that we would be able to assist you in bringing them home, but what we could assist you with is making some of the enquiries, and we will get back to you on that particular issue.  Thank you very much for coming.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

NOMAVENDA MASHIYANE: There were many such incidents.  I mean, it did not have to be in the school yard.  For instance, you could be walking down the road and you were shot at.

MS SEROKE: So in other words if those kids did say that they had done nothing, it could be true that they had not?

NOMAVENDA MASHIYANE: Absolutely.

MS SEROKE: And just another comment about Dr Asfat who opened his surgery to young people wounded during the struggle.  It is interesting that just before you we had Mrs Swaarbooi's testimony when she said that where her son spent two months in hospital and after the bullets had been removed the police came and arrested him.  So, it is no wonder that the children fled to Dr Asfat's surgery because they knew that their bullets would be removed and they would not get into trouble.  Do you not think so?

NOMAVENDA MASHIYANE: Yes, it is quite possible because, as I said, Asfat was the people's doctor.  It is quite possible that they particularly went to him because they knew that he would remove the pellets and throw them away.

CHAIRPERSON: Nomavenda, thank you very much for assisting the Commission in trying to make sense of what happened on June 16 1976 here in Soweto and other surrounding areas.  We thank you.  We expected what we have heard from you.  We thank you for your independent mind, your courage particularly as a woman.  What you have said shows that you have always had a certain degree of resilience especially when you share about your involvement on the day when there was drama in Dr Asfat's rooms.  We thank you very much.  We
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
15 N MASHIYANE
will certainly continue working with you even in the formulation of our reparations policy.  Thank you very much.
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you - you told us about the fact that you were pregnant.  Could you tell us about whether your birth was normal? That is the first question.

ELIZA MASILWANE: That is the first-born.

YASMINE SOOKA: That baby that you were carrying, when you went to hospital, was that birth normal, because you had been shot?

ELIZA MASILWANE: I was operated, but my second born was a normal birth.

YASMINE SOOKA: In your statement you say that the child that you gave birth to had to be stitched on his shoulder because of the shots. Is that correct?

ELIZA MASILWANE: Yes, it's true.  He was stitched.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did your father sue the police or the soldiers?

ELIZA MASILWANE: He didn't do anything.

YASMINE SOOKA: You yourself didn't speak to any lawyer about your own case?

ELIZA MASILWANE: No.

YASMINE SOOKA: Your child that was born, the one that was shot because of the bullet, the bullet touched his shoulder, so it had to be stitched up.  Today, does he suffer from any problems because of that or is he a normal little boy?

ELIZA MASILWANE: He is normal, there is nothing wrong with him.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata?

THOMAS MANTHATA: I want to ask if the school children, were they coming from the neighbouring school?

ELIZA MASILWANE: They were wearing a uniform, I don't know
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 E MASILWANE
what school were they coming from.  They were just wearing black and white.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Is there a neighbouring school?

ELIZA MASILWANE: Yes, there is one.

THOMAS MANTHATA: While you were watching the children, was it clear that they were going somewhere or were they just running?  Was it during break or were they going to the nearest shop to buy some food?

ELIZA MASILWANE: It was not during school hours. It was about four or five in the evening.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But these children were still wearing their school uniform?

ELIZA MASILWANE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In other words, if I understand you clearly, you are saying the police were just shooting randomly?

ELIZA MASILWANE: We can't say, if the children are coming from school.  Yes, by that time, I don't think they were coming from school.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Eliza, I want to thank you very much for coming to tell your story to the Commission.  Before you leave could I just explain to people that we are about to break for tea.  Could people please respect the witnesses and wait until the witnesses have had a chance to get up and get out, and we would like to invite the witnesses to join us in what must be the vestry, underneath. If the witnesses could please be allowed to leave first. We will gather in 20 minutes time again.  Thank you very much.  Thank you, Eliza.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Mazibuko we would like to welcome you to the Commission.  We would like to apologise for the fact that we are taking you much later than we actually promised you.  Before you begin to give your evidence I would like you to take the oath.

FANYANA MAZIBUKO: (sworn states)

YASMINE SOOKA: As is customary we have assigned a Commissioner to assist you with the leading of your evidence.  In this instance it is Hlengiwe Mkhize and I now hand you over to Hlengiwe.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much Chair.  Mr Mazibuko welcome, again.  I will ask you to tell the Commission a little bit about yourself particularly as a teacher in the 70's in the area of Soweto.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

MS MKHIZE: Maybe I need to assist you there, just to ask one question as to, you are describing a very complex process which was occurring within school grounds, were there any efforts on your part and any other leaders in education to meet and discuss the situation?  Because you have just described how students on a daily basis were harassed, then it reached a point where you as teachers were also involved, you were arrested, taken to the police station, what did the leaders, you know, from the government department and many other leaders do with the situation?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to ask the last witness for today, Mr Olefile Samuel Mnqibisa to take the stand, please.
 Sir, I would like to thank you.  You are one of those people who have been with us since this morning.  It has been a long wait. We thank you for your patience.  I will ask you to stand so as to take an oath before the Commission.

OLEFILE SAMUEL MNQIBISA: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Take a seat, please. Thank you. I will then ask Commissioner Wildschut to assist you in talking about your statement.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Let me add to the Chairperson's welcome.  We know that it has been a long wait for you, but we hope that you will feel that your statement is as important as everybody else's statement today and that you will feel that you are being given the attention and the listening of the Commission that you deserve.
 I would like you to tell us just a little bit about yourself, what you are presently doing right now and then to proceed to tell us, to give us your statement in yourr own words.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much for giving us your story in that sequence. It helps us to understand the trauma that you went through.  May I just ask one or two questions before I hand over to the Chair.

OLEFILE SAMUEL MNQIBISA: I am sorry, please, I have got last two letters which I must also read.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Will you read the extracts of the letters which you think could be relevant to your testimony?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  Amelia one of the things which the Truth Commission has to recommend to government is a reparation policy about how to deal with people who were victims of the struggle during 1960 and 1993, particularly in your case where in a sense you have been disabled.  Amelia if I could just carry on with the question, what would you like government to do about people like yourself?  What systems can be put in place to assist people like you?
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG]
6 A MOLAPO

AMELIA MOLAPO: I suggest that the government should take some of us back to school, if the government could help me to go back to school I will appreciate it.  Also regarding my health, every Friday I go to hospital. Every Friday I pay R13,00.  Sometimes I don't even have that R13,00.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very, very much.  We are very grateful that you have shared your story with us.  We know that you have suffered a double tragedy, firstly being shot in the spine which has left you paralysed and then the death of your mother when she learnt of what had happened to you.  We are very sorry at the sacrifices that people like yourself have made and we will try to recommend to government that we are able to put into practice some forms of assistance which can assist people like yourself.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

MS MKHIZE: Sorry I will have to cut you short now.  From me I will just say thank you very much and I will ask the Chair to take over.

YASMINE SOOKA: I would like to thank you for having given your evidence today.  What you have certainly provided is a different perspective of what June '76 was about.  We are grateful in fact that you have survived that and that you are indeed an MP today.  We are also grateful for the insight that you have gleaned during those years which enable you to make policy which will transform things like the educational system in our country.  Thank you very, very much.

DAN MONTSISI: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: I would ask Murphy Morobe to come forward please.  Murphy, Mr Morobe, thank you very much for agreeing to come and give a perspective as one of the people who was a student leader at that time.  I will ask you to stand,  I will ask you to stand up.

MURPHY MOROBE: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Yasmin Sooka to assist you in giving your evidence.

YASMINE SOOKA: Murphy, thank you very much for coming to the Commission.  You have given us a statement which is a very lengthy one, but there are a number of issues that you cover.  I wonder if, before we begin, if you could just give us very briefly a little of your own personal details and a little history about yourself please.

MURPHY MOROBE: Okay.  My name is Murphy Morobe and I was born in the oldest township in Soweto, Orlando East.  I am born of a family of four, three brothers and one sister.  At the time, in 1976, I was a student at Morris Isaacson High School and I was then doing my final year in matric, but before that I had been a student at Orlando North Junior Secondary School and decided in 1974 because those who know, Orlando East was particularly best by gangsters.  We had the Kwaitos, we had the Banzins, we had the Bees, we had the Kelly's Heroes, we had the Hazels Imsahlope and for me, I
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
2 M MOROBE
thought, I rather make some distance between that myself and decided to go Morris Isaacson High School.  So up until the time of June 1976 I was a student there.

YASMINE SOOKA: I wonder if you could begin by telling us about the beginnings of SASEM, the student movement at the time and also focus on the idealogy which was behind the growth of the student movement.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

YASMINE SOOKA: Can I ...

MURPHY MOROBE: So at least we could rely on that.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could I just stop you there.  One of the things which came across in a lot of witnesses testimony was the fact that students were very jubilant in terms of their participation in this march.  However, in the planning between June the 13th and June the 16th did the Action Committee ever consider a possibility that the State would intervene and that the police would become involved in it in the way that they did and if so what consideration was given to try to keep the march peaceful and also in terms of taking steps if something like that should have happened?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

MS SEROKE: Mr Mosala, in spite of the fact that you served in such a disreputable organisation such as the Soweto Urban Bantu Council which you yourself said was derided by the children and called Soweto Useless Boys Club, how is it that you were still so revered by the children to the extent, as you said a while ago, that they protected you along the way when it was so dangerous?

MS SEROKE: Joyce, I was a parent in Soweto, I was a black person in Soweto.  We had established an opposition against the wheel of the Government.  We had take a specific position to use the UBC as a platform to articulate the political, not only the civic problems of the community that sent us in there, but also the political aspirations of black people in the country as a whole.  We were called to 80 Albert Street before Dr Koornhof on two occasions and once that we must stop abusing the UBC for political purposes.  We had refused, we had told Dr Koornhof we did not represent the Government, but we represented the people
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
18 L MOSALA
that had sent us there and if this is what they wanted us to say, we would continue to say it until he closed the thing.  Manny Mulder threatened us with arrest and, ultimately, we ended up in jail.  
 The children knew this, they read the Press, we made our statements in the Chamber, we made statements in the Press and the children knew it.  The people of Soweto knew it.  We were fully aware that while the institution we were serving on was not acceptable to the people, but at least our position was acceptable to the people.  When I left the UBC I had over 400 widows who were living in their houses against the Commissioners recommendation.  The Commissioner had declined to transfer the houses to them.  The superintendent Piet Fouche had agreed to issue letters in their files which stated that those houses were not to be raided by the municipal police, the black jacks and when I left the Council that position stayed up to the time when the influx control laws were abolished that was the position.  The children, many children knew that their parents were in houses because of our efforts.

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much Mr Mosala.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mosala, can you switch off your mike please?  I would just like to take this opportunity to thank you on behalf of the Commission.  It is clear, based on our evidence, that there are many mistakes which were made during the difficult years of the repressive laws in this country, but we thank people like yourselves who decided to hang in there.  Today you are sharing with us, highlighting potential risks even in leadership.  We thank you very much.
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-26

CHAIRPERSON: We now call our last person for the day, Shan Napier, and ask him to come to the stand, please.  Mr Napier, we would like to thank you for agreeing to share our story with the Commission. However, before you begin, I would like to ask you to stand so that I may ask you to take the oath, please.

SHAN NAPIER: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Napier, as is usual a Commissioner usually assists you with the leading of your evidence. In this instance I will do that.  I wonder if before you begin with your story, if you could tell me a little bit about your brother, Prakash Napier, please.

SHAN NAPIER: My brother was the third eldest in my family. He lived most of his - he was actually born in Lenasia.  He was also like a father figure to me. (PAUSE).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Napier, take your time, please.

SHAN NAPIER: My brother was a very, he was a very friendly and caring person. He always inspired me.  His death was a great shock to me.  I am sorry I behave in such a manner like this in front of everbody. It is just, I cannot control my emotions.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you need to be concerned about that, you are amongst friends and if you need some time to
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 S NAPIER
compose yourself, please feel free to take your time on that.

SHAN NAPIER: My brother was, we actually came from a family, a very caring family.  He sort of lived his own life.  He moved to Laudium where he spent part of his life growing up there and eventually returned to Lenasia.
 He returned back round about the period in 1980.  Ever since then we became very, very close.  He was living together with my sister, myself of course, with whom we lived with my brother-in-law in Lenasia.  He was the type of person who would make a lot of jokes, always, he would always make fun of people.  He would always inspire you.  He would make you want to do things that you didn't want to do. He would make you laugh, he would make you cry as well.  But he was a very, very caring friendly person.  I think that is what I would like to say about him.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you tell us about, could you share with us the story about your brother, his history, how he became involved in Umkhonto weSizwe and what finally led to his death?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: We will ask the next witness to take the stand.  That is Mr Elliot Ndlovu.  Mr Ndlovu, I will ask you to stand.

ELLIOT NDLOVU: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Hugh Lewin to assist you in giving your testimony.

MR LEWIN: Mr Ndlovu, thank you very much for joining us.  As you know we are looking specifically in these two days at the events and perceptions of June 16 1976 and, yes, you have given us a very full statement.  What we would like, if it is possible Sir, for you to tell us because you speak in two capacities.  You speak as a parent.  You also speak as a teacher.  I think we would like to hear your accounts personally.  Firstly your account as a father and secondly your feelings as a teacher of the events of that time.  Please feel relaxed, you are amongst a lot of friends in what is essentially a very friendly place.  Thanks very much.

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not on.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-26

PHILEMON NGWENYA: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

MRS NGWENYA: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  As is our practice we have assigned a Commissioner to assist you with the telling of your story and in this instance it is Commissioner Mkhize who will assist you. I will now hand you over.

MS MKHIZE: Mr and mrs Ngwenya, once more, good morning.  I will ask with you, Mr Ngwenya, and ask you to tell us a little bit about your son, give us his name and what kind of a person was he, so that the Commissioners can have a picture of whom we are talking about.

MS MGWENYA: Commissioners, allow me to say this even before I read my submission.  The submission that I shall make here is not an assault on the ANC as a movement, but something to point out some of their atrocities and the violation of human rights by some of the members of the ANC in exile.
 This is my submission.  I am Philemon Ngwenya. I started teaching in 1947, became principal in 1958. Now this is my submission.
 I, Philemon Moboti Ngwenya, residing at 2245 Protea 
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 P NGWENYA
North, Soweto, wish to make a formal application to the TRC to find the truth about the death in exile of my son, Tamizulu Umzake Ngwenya in 1989.  
 My story is as follows.

MS MKHIZE: Before you tell your story, Mr Ngwenya, can you just tell the Commissioner - sorry, Mr Ngwenya, can you just tell the Commission a little bit about your son.  You know, as you saw him growing up, what kind of a person he was, his good qualities, just in brief.

MR NGWENYA: TZ, as I shall refer to him, was born on the 5th of October in 1954 in Soweto.  He did his primary schooling in Soweto and his secondary education as a boarder at Salesian High School, Manzini in Swaziland. He passed his O levels and proceeded to Waterford Khamklaba where he his A levels. That's my son.

MS MKHIZE: Did he do well at school?

MR NGWENYA: Very well, he passed his Std 6 in first class. His O levels, he had three distinctions and did very well at Waterford.  He even did something that was strange to me. He wrote, he made a submission in the publication on Black Theology. Of course, I didn't understand what that was.  Then proceeded to Kwalazini University of Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you. You can go ahead with your statement. Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

MS MKHIZE: Mr Ozinsky, welcome. I will as you to stand up so as to take an oath before this Commission.

UNKNOWN: (Duly sworn, states).

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.  Mr Ozynski, I will assist you giving your testimony before the Commission.  First of all, please tell us a little bit about yourself.

UNKNOWN: I think this fits in with what happened to me later. My parents came from Poland, my father's parents got killed by the Nazis, he had left to come to South Africa. I was brought up by him to have an absolute revulsion against any form of racism or Fascism or right-wingism.  That's how I grew up.  The story really begins there.  I don't know if you want me to proceed? Is there anything else you want to know?

MS MKHIZE: If you can switch off, Zodwa, please.  Thank you.  I will ask you to talk about what you refer here as the unlawful arrest at a demonstration, please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

MS MKHIZE: Maybe Mr Padi ... Please take your time and slow down. I will ask your wife maybe to share a little bit about the circumstances surrounding the death of your son, when you arrived at Pierre what she saw from there, and then we will come back to you again.

UNKNOWN: I will speak in Sotho.  When we arrived in Pierre with Mrs Ncalo, we met Madi by the gate and blood was flowing.  Oh, we saw blood flowing and there were some bones that we came across.  We made our way into the house.  We spoke to the people in the house.  When we got out from the house we went in as my husband has already said. When we got there we found that the bed was soaked in blood.  Actually the way they were shooting, it looks like they were pointing their guns directly to the mattress.  The headboard it was riddled with holes.  The wall behind - you see they were shooting these bullets, they were going through the wall through the headboard.  There were holes in the wall, the wall was cracked.  The ceiling was full of blood, in the room, the wardrobe down on the floor, because this was winter.  The blood was beginning to freeze.    The wardrobes were opened.  The TV was just shattered.
 We started with Mrs Ncalo. My husband had just gone into the big house. I don't remember what he was doing. I was telling Mrs Ncalo let's pray, let's ask for strength from God that we may clean up and be able to tidy up the
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
15 MRS PADI
place and the bones of the children, the mess of the children.  After praying we started cleaning up. We actually started taking the blood by hand to the bucket, into the bucket.  As we were collecting the blood, you could actually tell that this is part of the brain.  When you see on the other hand it is a part of a bone, and you could tell that this is the bullet shell.  We tried to collect everything.  After that we took water to clean up.  
 We even went to clean up outside, at the Totseto's place. We started from the gate, cleaning up, up to the house, we cleaned up.  After that we took the mattress out.  We took it out. It was soaked in blood, and the mattress was full of holes.  We covered the mattress with paper so that people could not stand and watch and see all the blood.   Then we started, that's where we discovered that she was sleeping when they shot them.  They were both sleeping and they were shot on the bed.  
 So we did all that.  We collected and tried to clean up everything and it was neat.  The walls we cleaned up, because it was also full of blood.  After we were done we therefore left and went back home.
 My husband remained behind, taking the mattress back into the house.  We left the house for our place.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe we should stop right there.  I will ask Mrs Ncalo to say her piece to the Commission about Mirriam Ncalo.  Tell us exactly who was Mirriam, up to the time where you discovered her at Pierre.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-26

CHAIRPERSON: I now ask Devi Ragoo to take the stand.

YASMINE SOOKA: It looks like Romola is not here as yet, and so I will take the opportunity of calling Isabella Mbele to come forward and take the stand please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-26

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to present the following witnesses who will be appearing before the Commission today.  Our first witness is Ms Kathleen Satchwell, the attorney who will be taking a critical look at the role of the legal system in contributing to the gross violations of human rights.
 The second person will be Ndwawi Linah Ngqabaye.  She will be representing herself, talking about severe beating at the 1963 drill hall meeting.
 The next witness will be Ramold Devi Meena Ragoo, representing herself, talking about the loss of eye during the Tricameral Protest.  
 The next witness will be Letshaba Thomas Abiel Mohande, representing himself.  He is a paraplegic shot by the South African Police.
 Nobelungu Leballo is the next one, talking about the son Tjisetso Leballo, who was a victim of De Kock Bombing.
 The next witness is Kholeka Patricia Manyamalala, who will be talking about her husband, Thandabantu Manyamalala, who is the victim of IFP attack.
 The next witness will be Irene Nontsikelelo Malunga, talking about her husband Ruben Malunga known as Shakes Kumumba, disappearance in exile.  That is the nature of the violation.
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 K SATCHWELL
 The next witness will be Mpondokazi Pondi Dlodlo, will be talking about herself and daughter Linda Dlodlo, talking about torture in detention and Linda Dlodlo's death.
 The next witness will be Shan Napier, talking about the brother Prakash Napier, the nature of violation is death by booby trap hand grenade.  Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: I would like to call Kathleen Satchwell to the stand.  Kathy, I would like to welcome you for agreeing and for making a submission to the Truth Commission. However, before you begin, I would ask if you would prefer to take an affirmation or to take the oath.  If so, will you stand, please.

KATHLEEN SATCHWELL: (Duly sworn, states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much, you may be seated. Kathy, I suggest that for the purposes of sound, it would be best if you - could I just explain to people that channel 0 and 1 are the languages in which the witnesses are speaking.  Channel 2 usually is the translation and channel 3 is Zulu.  Could I just get that correct, please?

INTERPRETER: Channel 3 is Zulu and channel 4 is Sotho.

YASMINE SOOKA: Kathy, as is usual, we assign a Commissioner to assist you with the leading of your submission, and before you begin, I would just ask that you give us a few details about yourself and then you can begin to tell us what you want to say to the Commission.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

THOMAS MANTHATA: I think just one question.  I know the best person to answer the question would have been your son, just to say what has kept him strong all these years and to what lesson has he learned from his father's death?

DOROTHY SEATLHOLO: The church and he was always praying..(tape SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
6 D SEATLHOLO
ends)...  Even today I am coming from the police station, I am having an affidavit for him to get money to get a bursary because he's studying at Wits Technikon, so I am coming from the police station this morning because they needed an affidavit as evidence that I am not working and his father died.

YASMINE SOOKA: Dorothy, the sacrifice that you have made and many other young women in your position is enormous and we would like to commend you on your courage and the way you have in fact survived all that was done to you.  We take heed of the fact that you would like to know who these people are and why they did this.  One of the sad things about the Commission thus far has been the lack of response from perpetrators in coming forward and the question that the Commission receives constantly is before we forgive we would like to know who we must forgive or why they did this.  I think the question can only be answered by those people involved themselves and we appeal as our Chairperson has constantly appealed, that those people who have committed atrocities in the past that they should come forward and use the opportunity to cleanse themselves of what they have done.  But they also need to recognise how forgiving South Africans are of what has happened in our past.
 We thank you for coming to share your story with us.  We have taken note of the name of the advocate who dealt with your case and we will try and follow that up so that we are able to give you some kind of answer on this particular matter.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

ANTOINETTE SITHOLE: Yes.  My brother like the karate sport, so besides karate sport now that we no longer have facilities like club houses where we used to go for dance or traditional dance, whatever it is that kids can do, that is what I would like to ask to have especially in the community because all those were burnt down.  So I would like them to be rebuilt and all those things should come back and children should not go to the streets and hang about the town for drugs and whatever.  So in that way so many - I think now that many people are not working they will contribute to help children you know by teaching them dance and religious - I think almost everything that kids can do.  So that's really what I would like to happen.
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
19 S NZIMA

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  Sam we thank you for sharing your story with us, and we thank you also for bringing along the pictures that you have so generously allowed us to show which we would remind people are set up at the back of the hall.  I think one of the tragedies of South Africa is that journalists like yourself who are often the only windows between what has happened in Soweto and the world did not get remunerated properly for the work that you did.  We will not promise, I think in your instance, to be able to assist you in dealing with it, but we could possibly try and recommend some legal firm that could assist you with trying to do something about getting some kind of accreditation for the picture that you took.  Thank you very much for sharing your stories with us.

SAM NZIMA: And in addition to that I am also concerned about the memorial stone which has been erected at Orlando West High.  The picture of Hector Petersen has been engraved on that stone, but my name is not appearing anywhere there.  I am the architect of the picture.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, thank you very much, you may resume your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Sono, in the letter that the Commissioner wrote to Mr Leon, he says that a possible site where your son was allegedly buried, was pointed out to the South African Police Service.  He also says that the site was thoroughly searched twice, and that it was aided by excavators and police dogs, but to no avail. Have you ever followed that part of his statement up? Because surely somebody must have given him a clue that your son could possibly be buried there.

MR SONO: No, I did not follow it up.  One, that particular person who has given the police that information to go and dig there, I have no confidence in that person.  Two, is that as people talk all the time, you may find that before the police could go there, somebody could have gone and exhumed the body and reburied it somewhere else, just to throw the trail away. It could have been many things that have happened there, but those people, I say to them if they could go to the - come to the Commission, they could go to any other lawyer, if they don't trust, if I could only know what happened and where the right spot is.  Really, if they want me to treat that private and confidential, I can do
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
24 N SONO
that for the sake of my son's remains, that it be exhumed and be reburied decently.  And really, if there are such people who are doing that, maybe that particular person is looking for something. If I had money or if I was a rich person, I would say money doesn't matter, R500 000,00, anybody who was there, when my son, whatever happened to my son, please come forward and take the reward.

YASMINE SOOKA: You say that you have no confidence in the person who told this.  Do you know who it is?

MR SONO: I don't know who it is, that is why I have no confidence in that kind of person. Because that person, could that person have come forward publicly, then many people could have assisted.

YASMINE SOOKA: One last question.    Do you think people are frightened and that's why they are not coming forward to assist you?

MR SONO: Yes and no.  Some of the people might have been paid not to assist us.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

MR SONO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
(APPLAUSE)
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

RUSSELL ALLY: And after your son went into exile were you ever visited by the police.  Did they ever ask you about him or his whereabouts?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: No, I never went to the police because when he arrived in Botswana we got the message real quick that immediately when he disappeared my sister went to Botswana.  She was on leave.  When she arrived in Botswana she discovered that Bushy was actually there.  Then she called this side, she called me and immediately I left for Botswana.  When I arrived in Botswana, it was on Thursday, and they told me that Bushy left on Wednesday.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Piet Meiring.  To the two of you, once more, I would really like to thank you for sharing with this Commission the difficult experience that your families have had to live with.  We as the Commission, we have heard you
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
14 P SWAARBOOI
and that fits in with the many other voices that in an African culture the question of burial rights should be a pre-requisite to any healing or reconciliation process.  We promise you that you will be with us in formulating a policy which will address this important question of reburial where it is possible and also of assisting people to get clarity about their unknown deaths.  We hope your appearance before this Commission is going to be the beginning of your healing.  The things that you have said, we hope you are going to join other families worldwide who are said they will never be silenced.  Your children were silenced, but we hope what you are saying will help us to remember what they stood for.  Thank you.
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Can we have order of some kind.  There seems to be disturbing noise coming from the back.  I do not know exactly where it is coming from.  It is not from the people who are seated here, but it is like it is coming from the back rooms.  We would really appreciate your co-operation because when we started we said we should make sure that we restore people's dignity today.
 I will ask the next witness to take the stand, but before doing that I should remind her that, when we started she was not here.  We had proposed that we will try to limit the witnesses to 15 to 20 minutes.  Our next witness is Sophie Thema whom I would like to take the stand.  Sophie, welcome.  I would like you to take an oath.

SOPHIE THEMA: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Before I ask Yasmin Sooka to assist you in leading the evidence, I will just ask Max Coleman to stand up so that everybody can see him.  He comes from the Human Rights Commission.  Max, welcome.  We are happy to have you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Cyril Ramaphosa is coming in.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is he?  We also see Cyril Ramaphosa coming in and we would like to welcome you in a very special way Cyril.  Stand up.  I see, Cyril, I see people jumping around wanting to see you next to, yes, they want you.  Our SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
2 S THEMA
people, they want you this side.  Thank you.  I will ask Commissioner Yasmin Sooka to assist you in leading your evidence Sophie.

YASMINE SOOKA: Sophie, thank you for coming.  I wonder if you could very, very briefly just tell us a little bit about yourself before we actually get to what you are going to tell the Commission.

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not on.

SOPHIE THEMA: Right, am I on now?  Okay.  I was born in Sophiatown, my parents told me, but I grew up in Soweto.  I went to primary school at the St Mary's Anglican School in Orlando East and I went to high school at the Stofberg Gedenk Skool where I actually obtained my education in the medium of Afrikaans.  That was by choice.  My parents did not force me to go Stofberg Gedenk Skool.  I had a reason why I wanted to go to Stofberg Gedenk Skool.  After matriculating I worked as a switchboard operator for a newspaper called Eleto Mirror and thereafter I was offered a job at the World Newspaper.  I became a self-styled journalist.  I became in journalist in 1965 and I continued until 1992.  I am from a family of five children, two sisters and three brothers.  After I gave up my job as a journalist, I became a cognitive and life skill facilitator teaching thinking skills and life skills in prisons to prisoners.  That is what I am doing at the present moment.

YASMINE SOOKA: Sophie, you have mentioned in your statement that you were contacted before the uprising on June the 16th took place.  Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

YASMINE SOOKA: Could I ask Mrs Tshabalala to take the stand please.  We would like to welcome you to the Commission firstly and for agreeing to share your story with us.  But before we ask you to tell your story will you please rise to take the oath.

DOROTHY TSHABALALA: (sworn states)

YASMINE SOOKA: As is our custom we have asked Mr Tom Manthata to assist you with the leading of your evidence.  I will now hand you over to Tom.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Mr Tshabalala you will bear with us.  It is truly late but we can't help it.  We value all you can give us and just be patient with us.  Can you please lead us on the story of your son.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-22

YASMINE SOOKA: Gabu we want to thank you for coming to share your experiences with us.  I know that you said in your document that you don't want to detail the unpleasant things that were done to you while you were kept in detention, however, at some stage I think we are going to ask you to be more graphic about it and we will certainly come back to you in respect of those things which you have left out in your document.
 The issues that you have raised in terms of the recommendations that you have made is something which 
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
13 G TUGWANA
touches this Commission very, very directly, because in the making-up of this Act the word that is used in the Act is not just reparation, but reparation and rehabilitation and the restoration of full human dignity to the persons who are part of this process.  The difficulty of course is that cultural differences in our communities, also the fact that we use that as an excuse to deny the fact that we need to talk about these experiences and to begin to recognise the fact that there are people in our communities who need help.  These are difficult issues and of course we sometimes reject the traditional centres out there who can assist.  
 I think it needs to be a two-pronged process, or multi-pronged one actually, where we bring all the role players together, but that we train people within our communities who can begin to assist people in our communities to start talking about this and also to start recognising the fact that many, many people in our country suffer from post-traumatic stress.  We are very, very grateful for the fact that you have raised this.  
 We have heard the fact that people have made friends of ants, very, very often, especially people who have been in solitary confinement, I think we know that the world accepts that solitary confinement in fact is a gross human right violation of its own kind and we are very thankful that you have raised that so succinctly in your paper.
 We appreciate the fact that you have waited a considerable amount of time before you were allowed to make your statement, but we are very, very thankful that you have raised all these issues.  You are indeed a survivor of what happened during those times.  We know that in the Act we are forced to use the word "victim", but in fact the word is not SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
14 G TUGWANA
about "victims", the Truth Commission is in fact about survivors.  The victims are those who never, never came back themselves.  Thank you very, very much for that.

GABU TUGWANA: I am also thankful.  Actually I was worried that you don't call me tomorrow because I'm catching flu, I am already trembling, so I don't know if tomorrow I would have survived.  Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: I now declare the proceedings of the first day of the Truth Commission closed.  I also want to say that the proceedings will begin at 8:30 tomorrow to take the statements of those witnesses who were not able to give their testimony today.  Thank you very much for your patience.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: We will ask Reverend Dale White to come forward.  Welcome Reverend White.  It has been a long wait for you since yesterday.  I will ask you to stand.

DALE WHITE: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: I would ask Hugh Lewin to assist you in giving the evidence.

MR LEWIN: Dale, thanks very much for waiting this long for us.  As you have heard much of the testimony which has come before us in the last two days, the one element that has not actually been covered directly, has been that of the Church involvement.  We know that you, as Murphy Morobe mentioned briefly, the role of Welgespruit, has been mentioned, but just very briefly.  I think what we would like if you could outline to us the role of the Church at that time and specifically what happened at Welgespruit and elsewhere that you were involved in.  Thanks very much.

DALE WHITE: Members of the Commission, I am grateful for this opportunity to bring to your notice the ways in which the local congregation, particularly of St Pauls Jabavu and the associated role I had for 30 years at the Welgespruit Fellowship Centre, was impacted and changed by the events of 1976.  I apologise that you do not yet have a written deposition from me, but that will be available shortly after today.  May I proceed?
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
2 D WHITE

MR LEWIN: Please do.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

MR LEWIN: Sorry to interrupt.  Is there some way you could wrap up.

DALE WHITE: Yes, I am going to wrap up now.

MR LEWIN: Yes, thanks.

DALE WHITE: I would like just to talk about in Jabavu, the Apelging Community Centre was erected in 1984 in memory of the people and children of Soweto and they helped build and set the foundations and build the walls to roof height.  It was in the evening, in the early morning that the whistles started sounding in White City, Jabavu, as third force, two combi loads of third force people tried to burn down the centre which had been established in 1984.  It was built as
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
16 D WHITE
a submission and it is as a tribute to those who suffered and so I therefore would propose to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that you consider supporting a set of memorials, particularly, I would ask that we look at the Apelging Community Centre and that we look at this as a living memorial which will bring young people and others together to study the history and the background of our struggles for freedom.  We would also ask you to look to supporting as best you may, the S A Noble Loriets Peace Park based at the Welgespruit Fellowship Centre.  It is these two memorials that can keep alive the knowledge about our past and our struggles, but remain open to bringing peace in the future.  Therefore, I close with what I feel was a very real prayer said each day and Sunday in our Church.  It is a prayer for Africa.  God bless Africa, guide her children, guard her leaders and give her peace, Amen.

MR LEWIN: Dale, thank you very, very much for that, for the practicality and as well for the spiritual message which comes through and informs all of what you have said.  I will hand over to Hlengiwe at the Chair.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Reverend White.  We thank you for giving this Commission an important perspective which is the role of the Church at that time and how you envisage that role to be continued in this era.  Because the Commissioners do not have your statement I will not give them an opportunity to ask you, but to ask you some questions.  As soon as we have got your statement we will certainly be in touch with you if there are any issues that needs to be clarified.  I thank you very much.  Thank you.

DALE WHITE: Thank you and I apologise that you do not have the written statement yet.
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
17 D WHITE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE