Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

THAMI MAHLALA: Vusi was outside at the time, busy urinating.  Vusi said they are cocking their arms, and before he could finish - Vusi heard them cocking the firearm and we also heard the sound of firearms, we looked at them and thereafter we heard a fire shot. It looked like they were firing at us.
	We took cover.  Levi got into the car, he pulled out his firearm.  Vusi also shot.  Those people shot at us and he fell down.

CHAIRPERSON: Who fell down?

THAMI MAHLALA: Vusi fell down.  I took the firearm from Vusi, we heard the sound of an AK47 and as we were shooting them, we suspected that, we didn't know that they were police, because they were dressed in private clothes.
	In my mind, while shooting at them, I thought, I remembered that my Commander said that we should find any disturbance on the way, and I thought it was the soldiers who were at the roadblock and they have seen us, so I shot at them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

THAMI MAHLALA: I was trying to protect the firearms that we had, because our Commander has informed us that we should arrive at the township with the firearms and we should do anything to protect them.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were acting in terms of a command as well?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.  We exchanged fire, some police arrived and we fired each other, and I tried to cover.  At that time, I was shot and I woke up in hospital.  I don't remember what happened thereafter, I don't know what happened thereafter.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I see that the time now is one o'clock.  Should we proceed?  It is not much?
	Right, you were also shot and you were unconscious until you regained your consciousness at the hospital, is that correct?

THAMI MAHLALA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: That is how you were arrested, is that correct?

THAMI MAHLALA: That is how I was arrested.

MR SIBEKO: Amongst the offences or the acts that you have applied for, you have also included attempted, or escaping from lawful custody.  What made you to want to escape from custody?

THAMI MAHLALA: It is because I had a visitor from the township, saying that people are getting killed in the township and things are very tense and even my girlfriend doesn't stay at her own home at that moment.  Therefore because of all these things, I decided I have to skip from prison to go and help the community.

MR SIBEKO: Now, when you were tried and convicted, did you get an opportunity of getting to know the victims, the next of kin of the person that died as a result of the shootout between yourself and the people who came with the vehicle, which you say is a private car?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I saw them in court.

MR SIBEKO: If you were to be given an opportunity of approaching the next of kin of the deceased to reconcile with them, would you make use of that opportunity?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I will be happy to get such an opportunity to ask forgiveness from them.

MR SIBEKO: The offence of attempted murder that you have also included, is it related to the shootout between yourselves and the occupants of the private car?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Am I correct to say at the time you saw this private car approaching and having met the roadblock, what came to your mind is that these were the police who might have seen you when you made a U-turn, that is running away from the roadblock, is that correct?

THAMI MAHLALA: That is correct.  I thought they saw us when we turned back and therefore I suspected that they were police.

MR SIBEKO: Now if you were to be given an opportunity to meet the gentleman whom you robbed the vehicle at Alrode, would you also take that opportunity and try to make peace or reconcile with him?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I will appreciate to get such an opportunity.

MR SIBEKO: Which Court tried you and what sentence was passed or was given?

THAMI MAHLALA: I am sorry, it was the Boksburg court and I was sentenced to 33 years for all the charges.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

THAMI MAHLALA: (still under oath)

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, we are ready to proceed.  I think my learned colleague has closed his evidence, thank you sir.  I don't have any further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  Mr Sibeko, if you could just show your client supplement 2.  On page 1 there is a reference to Molefi Michael Selebe.  Is that the same Molefi you refer to in your testimony?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, I don't know if you have with your legal representative, gone through the documents attached to Selebe's application, these particular documents in this supplement?  I was just reviewing over the lunch break, the statements in this document, page 9 by one Gehlig and the statement on page 15, by Van Wyk and the other documents essentially relating to what I think is the same application that you are making now.  I am right in that, am I, that you have seen the documents and it is the same set of facts and circumstances essentially as Selebe's?

MR SIBEKO: That is correct so.

THAMI MAHLALA: It is correct so.

ADV GCABASHE: When you go to page 9, the first statement, essentially what this witness says is that there was a burglary, just the long and short of it, there was a burglary and this was followed by a search around the area for the burglars.  They came across this white van and a shootout ensued.  Just very roughly, this is what he says.
	He mentions a blue Sierra as well, which is what you mention in your evidence.  What is your comment on the statement made by Gehlig on page 9?

THAMI MAHLALA: I don't deny the statement.  This is a statement made by Gehlig.  It is his own statements and this is what he said before the Court.

ADV GCABASHE: The impression I get having read the statements, he is saying that the group you were with, essentially committed this robbery, I beg your pardon, the burglary, housebreaking and theft, and you shot at them without any provocation essentially.  This is what he is saying here.
	Are you saying that these facts are correct, because they are very different to what you told us in your testimony?  Just help me with that.

THAMI MAHLALA: It is not true, we didn't come here to rob the house.  We went to Duduza to collect firearms to defend the community.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying that everything that this particular witness says in his statement, is incorrect?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, it is not true.

ADV GCABASHE: You will agree though that they are talking about the same type of motor vehicle, a blue Sierra, they are talking about Glen Thompson, who you mention in your documents as well, as the person who was killed.  Are you able to give any further explanation as to where this witness is wrong, and where on particular facts, he might be right, because there are certain similarities, but then there are very fundamental differences as well, between this statement and what you are saying.
	Just to try and separate the issues for us, so that we can understand them.

THAMI MAHLALA: With reference to the car, it is correct.  Even if I can't remember the colour, the truth is my statement, it is correct, especially the one that I am just presenting before the Committee.  As I have said that I was coming from Duduza, I don't know whether he was involved in the robbery in his own area.
	I don't know if I have fully explained myself.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, you don't know if who was involved in the robbery in his own area, who are you referring to?

THAMI MAHLALA: Are you referring to the robbery of the car or...