Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-27

ADV NTSEBEZA: Just for the record - what were you actually charged with?

MR WEAVER: I was charged under Section 27[b] of the Police Act.  The exact wording - I have it here, but it is roughly - no person may say or make any statement about the police or police actions without taking reasonable steps to ascertain harrasity  of those statements.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And what was the substance of what you had said, the police had done?  Which it was presumed you had not taken reasonable steps to ascertain the harassment there of.

MR WEAVER: I can hand in,  if you would like, the full text of interview that I did with the BBC.  Briefly, on the first - the BBC phoned me on the first day.  They phoned in to try and talk to somebody.  Chris Bateman was not available and I agreed to take the call.   It was a question and answer interview.
And on the first day I said to them - that we had independent information which went beyond the police statement,  but because, we had at that stage  still hadn't had clarity from the police about their response to Chris Bateman's telex of the allegations,  and also because I wasn't going to scoop my own newspaper, the Cape Times, by giving the BBC the story first, I merely gave them the essence of the police version of events.
I said - I related what the police have said.  They then phoned me back the next day.   And the introduction on the BBC piece was there is controversy in South Africa over how 7 young blacks were killed by police yesterday in the township of Guguletu.
And then they interviewed me and I spoke - I said that - by then I interviewed two of the families and I said that the families have said that young men were not involved in politics, had not received Guerrilla training.  I quote - Ms Miya saying - I said that she was very upset and very traumatized at the time, but she felt that the weapons had been possibly planted on her son's body.  I quoted her saying - he was just an ordinary person, he was not a freedom fighter.  And then related the accounts of the eye-witnesses to the ambush - General Sibaca, Bowers Mazonke  and Cecil Msutu.

ADV NTSEBEZA: That will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja any further questions - Denzil?

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.   Tony, perhaps you could, with reference to the sketched plan that we have - also just perhaps confirm the layout of that particular area where this thing happened.  Would you care doing that?

MR WEAVER: Okay I must stress that I did not go to the scene during - just after the shooting as Chris did.  I subsequently went there to look at the layout.  Would  you like me to stand up?

ADV POTGIETER: Please if you would.

MR WEAVER: The way I understand the sketch plan is - the way I understand the sketch plan is that the N2 Highway runs along here,  Cape Town is in that direction and Somerset West in that direction.  NY1 is running here in a southerly direction to the traffic lights where you have got the Guguletu police station here and this is the road to Manenberg and the Manenberg police station.
The - most of the shootings took place over here.  This is the Dairy Belle Hostel and this is the  Murray and Roberts Hostel.  As I understand it - Chris's witnesses were all in Dairy Belle Hostel at different places.  Looking - one witness looking this way where somebody was killed.  Other witnesses looking this way.  The shooting took place this way and some of the victims ran into these bushes here, where subsequently - in my trial forensic evidence proved that at least one of them had been shot at point blank range - in the bushes, out of sight of the witnesses.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much Tony.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Pumla?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson.  Hi Tony, you mentioned something about patterns between the way that policing around the Koevoet operation happened and what subsequently you observed in Guguletu, for example.
And you also mentioned the way the white policemen among the Koevoet were South Africans.   Did you ever know any of those policemen in this country?  Do you ever know whether they came back to this country?

MR WEAVER: The Koevoet operatives?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes.

MR WEAVER: Oh! yes - no they - the routinely Koevoet was an extension of the training of the South African security police and to the best of my knowledge other units as well, but it was essentially - all though it fell under the ambit of the Security Police - under General Hans Dreyer - who is their commanding officer - it was a general police unit where - the police performed a straight military role - they did - they had note -  for instance Koevoet was 90% - 85% I think black members.  So-called turned SWAPO Guerrillas.  Former UNITA and FNLA competence who had been recruited into Koevoet.   Local the members of what was called the Ovambo Home Guard.  And they were under the command of white officers who routinely so  far as I know, would go for one to two years - operational training in Namibia and then return to South Africa.
And I can remember - I had a very - I had quite a tricky time in Namibia - both the police and the military refused to talk to me.  I was refused to creditation.  I wasn't allowed to get any briefings.  That I had two sources in the military, they were military intelligence officers who were sickened by what they were seeing with Koevoet and who were feeding me information about Koevoet massacres.  About incidents involving Koevoet.
And one of those sources - towards the middle of 1985 contacted me and said that there was going to be a down scaling of Koevoet in Namibia - all though they are going to bring new recruits in, because the experienced officers were needed in South Africa.
So clearly, yes, that kind of Guerrilla training or anti-incertainty training that they received in Namibia was put to use in South Africa.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And Tony, are you in a position to mention any of those policemen you knew in Namibia, in Windhoek - who then came to South Africa?

MR WEAVER: Not without their - my informants or the people who came back here?  I can only speculate.  I have subsequently met Koevoet operators who have left the Police Force, but I can only speculate as to whether people who were involved in Guguletu 7 shoot out for instance, had served in Koevoet.  ... END OF TAPE 3 - SIDE A ...

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: No I just meant generally, if you knew any of those policemen and whether they were - I mean where ever they were based in South Africa - if you knew that they were back.

MR WEAVER: Well we've seen the evidence in the trial of Eugene de Kock.  That he was a - I think a founding member with Koevoet and he was certainly very highly rated in Koevoet.
And that he brought his experience in Koevoet to bare on his operations - the Vlakplaas Section C-operations in South Africa.  And that many of the Vlakplaas operatives had - and also CCB - Civil Corporation Bureau operatives - had received their blooding - let us put it that way, in Koevoet and I am convinced to same applied to the police who were operating in Cape Town.
Who is also the - when Lieutenant  Loubser said to me, that police had been brought from Pretoria and Krugersdorp.   And it was common knowledge at that time that there was also a group of so-called Askari's who were Zulu speaking.  Who people in Guguletu and KTC, Crossroads referred to as INKATHA, who were operating in the area as well.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: H'm, thanks Tony, it is very important to make those connections, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary Burton?

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  Tony, you have referred to the funeral which was held in March  for 6 of the 7 young people who died.  There was also the funeral in Paarl of Zandisile Mjobo - which was delayed - I think until May.  I wonder if you - I don't know if you were at the Mbekweni - the Paarl funeral?

MR WEAVER: I wasn't at the Paarl funeral.