Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-04-30

MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: You see at the time when he disappeared we didn't know what had happened to him, he had just gone to work as far as we were concerned.  But there is a person who came, a  ...(indistinct), apparently he went to the business and found Andrew's aunt and he told Andrew's aunt that at the time when they took Andrew he was with him.  That was a four-way, so she was going to get off at the corner and come up, but apparently when he arrived there they stopped his car and they told this lady get inside.  There were two people with guns and they grabbed him out of his car and they put him inside the combi, and they told that girl that
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she must come back inside the car.  She had already alighted out of the car.  So somebody was driving the car with this girl and they were following this combi and they went passed home.  Many people did see this combi because they knew this combi, but they were surprised that this combi was going at such a high speed.  But they just drove past home.  But after they had turned the corner they hooted to stop the car and then the car stopped.  The asked this girl if you know the shortest way to Botswana, and this girl said I don't know anything about Botswana.  And then they drove towards Cullinan.  They came out through the Cullinan route.  When they arrived at a depot, there was some depot somewhere before, before you arrived at Cullinan, they stopped there in Andrew's car and Andrew's car stopped and the combi also stopped behind it.  Those who were in the combi came towards the window of that, Andrew's car and said get out of the car.  She thought they were going to kill her.  They said this Andrew, we have been sent by his brother to come and fetch him.  If you can leave here and go and tell his wife what happened you are also going to disappear the same way that Andrew.  But another person said no, we are not sent by his brother, we are the police.  We have come to take him because he transports dangerous weapons between the country - between South Africa and outside, and then the other one said no he deals in drugs.  But don't tell anybody what's happened, we are going to take you the same way.  Just go home.  That's why she came to us rather than going to the police.  She was scared, this woman, this lady.

THOMAS MANTHATA: It would seem like - did she say that she went to Cullinan?

MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: No it was before they arrived at Cullinan.
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There was a street that goes towards Cullinan.  They came out of Mamelodi, they just dropped her at some depot before Cullinan but she doesn't know where they went to.  It was winter and it was getting dark.  She walked from the place up until - she was too scared to get a taxi.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But when you leave Mamelodi you pass through Cullinan before you go to Vlakplaas.

MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: Excuse me?

THOMAS MANTHATA: According to what Mamasela said - that is you got this from Mamasela's statement in the newspaper, but what happened to this lady after she had told you all this story?

MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: When I went to the police station giving them the statement which they didn't take, they said I must bring this lady.  I went at her home.  I contacted her.  She didn't refuse.  She went with me.  The first day I went to the police station the Mamelodi police, they took her before the Compol police came, they said they were going to arrest her because it would seem like she knew where Andrew had gone to.  They didn't put her in the same room where I was, they just took her away.  After the Compol police came they released her and I was the one who remained behind.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When you went to Compol she didn't come with you to Compol?

MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: We didn't go to Compol.  I don't know if they called her to Compol thereafter.  That was the last day I saw her while I was still busy with these Compol police.

THOMAS MANTHATA: How is the business going on, is it going on?

MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: Yes his brother is back.  His brother is back and he is looking after the business.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Could you tell us how the Commission could
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assist you?

MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: I have got a problem.  I think Andrew is not a dog.  I don't think he should have died the way he died.  If he was guilty or killed somebody they should have arrested him.
 The second thing, he's been gone for eight years, nobody told us anything.  Why didn't they tell me then that they had killed him.  
 The third thing, I have to bring the children up on my own.  The youngest one is in standard two, he is eight years old.  The second one is 11 years old.  The first one is 18 years old.  He is in standard ten.  These children are growing up and if they have to go to university what am I going to do?  
 Another problem that I have I am suffering the - I mean these children are asking me questions since they said Andrew Makope died the children were very disturbed when they heard the news.  They said if father had died when are you going to bury him.  I have to answer so many questions.  And this upset my family every day.  The elder one is worse.  He has now got lots of headaches and is a very disturbed child.  I don't understand why we should suffer like this.  I am finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Tom, thank you Mamma.

DR BORAINE: Could you just make sure that you have got the earphones so we can talk to each other.  Are you alright?  I would like to ask you one question and I also want to correct something.  Firstly you read about the killing of your husband in 1996 in the City Press, is that right?  Have you had any contact from any official, any police, anyone who came to tell you what had happened?
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MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: No, nobody came.  The only person who came on the 27th it was a reporter from the City Press, Elias Maluleka and he told me that I should buy the City Press the following day because Andrew's story will appear in that paper.

DR BORAINE: To make absolutely sure that I understand, you had no official confirmation ...(tape ends)... find out more about this and obviously we will, I just want to make one short comment for the record Mr Chairperson.  It was mentioned by my colleague that in your statement there is reference to Andrew being an informer.  There is no such reference in your statement that is before us, and I think in fairness to you and your family I should make that public.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: I would just like to ask you three questions please.  The one is you have told us that you went to the police at Mamelodi to open up a docket.  Can you tell me if the police actually opened that up because you seem not to have been very clear there, can you just clarify that for me please?

MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: When I went to lay charges I received Phuta in the office and I laid of kidnapping because we already had information how he was picked up.  I was explaining to Phuta how he didn't come home the previous day, how he told us that he was going to the doctor, while taking the statement I explained to him that this lady told them that they were police and Freddy sent them to pick him up, and this policeman said to me is it Andrew that works at the mortuary, can you please wait a minute he will come tomorrow, I am not taking the statement anymore.
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YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  And Queen Skosana, does she live in Mamelodi, that's the first part, and the second one is did you ever see her after you went and she was interviewed by the Compol police please?

MABEL MATLALAKA MAKOPE: Queen is staying in Mamelodi, she is not far from us.  After she has been called in by the police I have never seen her again.