Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I would be more than happy to assist the family in that matter.  I have been down previously with the Attorney General's Investigation Team and was unable to find the spot.

MR VISSER: Did you in fact go out and search for the spot?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: We did, we spent a number of days on the South Coast, looking for the spot.

MR VISSER: Just to complete that picture of how you drove, first of all it was at night, and it was dark?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you just turn off the South Coast road and travelled along the road onto which you turned off until you came to the spot or what was the position?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection is that we drove down on a tarred road, and at some point turned off, travelled on a dirt road and I can't remember how many times we turned off or deviated from that road again.  But a number of dirt roads, and a couple of times we turned off roads.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So you turned off a number of times, that is what you are saying?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is right, yes.

MR VISSER: All right.  Spyker Mhieza is very much alive Mr Chairman and I may tell you that he hasn't applied for amnesty.
	He is not my client, but that is what I am informed.  Mr Rosslee, let's move straight on to the spot where Mr Bhila was then assassinated.
	You said in your application at page 25 in the second paragraph, that the area was recognised as an IFP stronghold, do you remember saying that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I remember that.

MR VISSER: Was there any particular reason why you made that statement?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I just recall that during the planning or during discussion, while this elimination was being discussed, that it came out that we were going to go to this area, where there had been faction fighting and it was apparently an IFP stronghold.

MR VISSER: As far as you know, was that purposefully part of the plan as to how the remains of Mr Bhila had to be disposed of, him being an ANC activist?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot recall if that was the specific intention.  I surmise that because of the area being sparsely populated, because of the faction fighting, that is why the area was chosen.

MR VISSER: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry.  Who were present when it was discussed, or it was planned how Mr Bhila was going to be killed?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall who was present when the planning was done Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Did you discuss where you were going to dispose of the body?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection is that Lembede would take us to a place that was suitable for the disposal of Mr Bhila's body.

ADV SIGODI: Was there any particular reason or did Mr Lembede say why he would choose a particular place?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I think the idea Mr Chairman, behind Mr Lembede doing that was, his knowledge of the local area which we didn't have, coming from Pretoria.

ADV SIGODI: And was Mr McCarter present when that was being discussed?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Let me attempt to assist Adv Sigodi by trying to juggle your memory.
	When was this planning, when did this planning take place?  The part of the planning that you knew about, and where did it take place?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I was privy, or I recall being with Major Taylor and Mr McCarter when the order was given, and my recollection is that at the shooting range, Lembede was going to take us to a suitable spot.

MR VISSER: Yes, no we know that part, we know that the decision was that Lembede had to take you.  I thick Commissioner Sigodi's question relates more to who were present at the time when the issue, if it was ever discussed, of disposing of the body in an IFP stronghold, was discussed, I think that is the question.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot recall if there was a specific discussion about we are going to an IFP stronghold, to dispose of the body because the deceased was ANC orientated.

MR VISSER: Yes, but in any event, it makes sense to you that that would be the situation?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: All right, you said in your Exhibit B that for the purpose of the assassination of Mr Bhila, you took with you on that evening in question, two 6,35 pistols which is the same as .25 pistols, not so?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: According to Mr McCarter - sorry perhaps I should just continue and say that you also stated that you gave Mr McCarter one of those firearms.  Is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My statement, that is yes.

MR VISSER: I am just trying to find it.  In any event, whether it is here or not, you told me that you in fact did give him one of the firearms?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.   And do you still today maintain that that was the position?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Having listened to Mr McCarter's evidence and going back in my mind to the procurement of these, it is possible that I did not give him a pistol at the scene, but that he in fact got it at Vlakplaas.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, my Attorney has found the reference, it is over the page, at page 6.
	Perhaps we should just deal with that aspect straight away.  You say in the second last paragraph, well, perhaps I should just start a little above that, I know one of the others also shot with the other 6.35 pistol, but I cannot remember who it was.
	So what you are saying is that you remember somebody else shooting, but you can't remember that it was, who it was, therefore you cannot remember that it was McCarter.  We now know it was Mr McCarter?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct, at that stage, I didn't, or I couldn't recall who had fired as well.

MR VISSER: Yes, and chronologically you made Annexure B, the affidavit prior to you completing your amnesty application form, isn't that so?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And at the time when you completed your amnesty application form, you also did not mention Mr McCarter, in fact you didn't even mention the fact that somebody else had also shot?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Well, that application was made under a lot of time pressure, and for whatever reason, I either forgot or omitted to put Mr - or state that someone else had shot there.

MR VISSER: Shot, yes all right.  Okay, you arrived at this spot and we know that Mr Bhila is then escorted out of the kombi or the bus, the kombi bus, and taken to the edge of the cliff, is that more or less correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Reference is being made to the fact that his head was covered with a hood of some sort, made of material?  You have heard that evidence?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I heard that.

MR VISSER: Does it accord with your recollection?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I do remember Mr Bhila's head being covered, yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: When was that cover placed over his head?  Do you remember that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't remember when his head was covered Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: When you eventually shot Mr Bhila in the head, was his head then covered, or was it not covered?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall if his head was covered at that point.

MR VISSER: All right.  The two 6.35 pistols which you spoke about at page 5 of Exhibit B, had you required them on the day in question in order to effect this assassination?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Those weapons I had acquired quite a long time prior to the actual incident.

MR VISSER: You were not in legal possession of those firearms, were you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I was not Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What is the reason why you were in possession of those firearms?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: The reason was very much in line with what Mr McCarter has stated, they were used as throw aways.

MR VISSER: What is a throw away?