Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : When you say you waited, you mean you waited at the scene where he had died?

ANSWER: No we moved away but we went to my yard where I was staying.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Mpshe?
QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you Mr Chairman, where on the body did you shoot the deceased?

ANSWER: Just close to the chest, just here on the chest.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was this Mawitatelo an ANC member?

ANSWER: Yes she was the member of the ANC's Women's League.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did she hold any position within the Women's
2b	League /...
MR MPSHE	100	P LEBONA
League?

ANSWER: She didn't have any position.

<UNKNOWN>: : Am I correct to state that as an ANC marshall or SA marshall you are not given any mission to carry out save for maintenance of order at meetings?

ANSWER: Can you please repeat your question sir?

<UNKNOWN>: : In other words except for maintaining order at mass meetings, you are not to carry out any mission outside a mass meeting or meeting set out?

ANSWER: I wasn't supposed to do anything besides acting in the mass meeting but I had the gun with me to protect the community that I was with as we were taking him to the police station.

<UNKNOWN>: : So when you were taking him to the police station, you foresaw the possibility of him fighting, as you say you had the gun with you.

ANSWER: No we thought that as we were walking looking for transport, his members would approach us and that is why we were armed because we knew them as fighters.

<UNKNOWN>: : How many of you comrades had guns on that day?

ANSWER: Among the group the three of us had guns.

<UNKNOWN>: : Could you mention names please?

ANSWER: Mzakwe, Mosita Majakena and myself Peter Lebona.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...submitted an application form applying for amnesty, which application form has been used also by your counsel?

ANSWER: I remember.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you complete this application form yourself?

ANSWER: We filled this form when I arrived in prison and I wrote everything that happened on that day and then we applied from the National Party Government.
2b

<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR MPSHE	101	P LEBONA

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you yourself, in your own handwriting, fill in or fill up the application form?

ANSWER: That was not my handwriting, it is another comrade from Schweizer Reneke we were together in the cells in prison.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where from did he get what he wrote onto your application form?

ANSWER: He took everything from us, he took this from me.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm going to show you page 5 of your application form, it is highlighted, it will be page 5 of the paginated, page 5 paginated.   The highlighted portion look at it and tell me if that is what you said?   Mr Chairman it will be page 5 of the original application form and page 4 for the pagination.   I am going to read this out to you, it's after a question under question 11(b), I will read the question and your answer
"

<UNKNOWN>: If so, state particulars of such order or approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of the person or persons who gave such order or approval?

ANSWER: After a proper analysis of the situation we, as the executive branch of the ANC, took a decision to go and search Zenzile wherever.  He was apprehended him and hand him over to the police."
Do you remember that?

ANSWER: I remember.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was he taken to the police?

ANSWER: Yes he was taken to the police but not on the same
2b	day /...
MR MPSHE	102	P LEBONA
day of the 21st.   On the 21st we didn't reach the police station, we were on our way to the police on the 21st but we couldn't reach our destination.

<UNKNOWN>: : Which day is this wherein you say he was handed over to the police?

ANSWER: That was on the day he burned comrade Madewu using a paraffin, he was together with his members of the gangster and that was again on the day where he raped three women, he was taken to the police station.

<UNKNOWN>: : Taken on a different date by executive of the ANC?

ANSWER: This decision was taken by the executive, that was on a separate date because these women were sent to the police station and then we saw Zenzile in the township and the executive said we should take him to the police station so that it can be clear as to what is going to happen with him.

<UNKNOWN>: : You testified further that in response to a question by your counsel and you said
"We hoped to achieve peace between us and them."
The them here being the kofifi, do you remember that?

ANSWER: I remember.

<UNKNOWN>: : Will I then be correct to state that the hostility that existed, existed only between yourself and the kofifi only?

ANSWER: The hostility was there especially when we had our mass meetings, they would come and fight us, they were against the activities of the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...you should not harm comrades, do you recall that?

ANSWER: I remember.
2b

<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR MPSHE	103	P LEBONA

<UNKNOWN>: : Will I then be correct to state that actually you shot in order to defend comrades present on the scene then, that was the purpose?

ANSWER: That was the purpose of shooting him because I thought to myself when he shoots first, many comrades and members of the ANC are going to be injured and harmed.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was your shooting aimed at achieving any other thing other than defending your fellow comrades?

ANSWER: I was shooting him to defend but after shooting him I would have taken him to the police station, I didn't expect what happened thereafter.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you understand my question?

ANSWER: Can you repeat it?

<UNKNOWN>: : In the shooting were you shooting to achieve any other thing other than protecting your fellow comrades?

ANSWER: I was shooting to protect the comrades, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: : Sorry Mr Mpshe in the framing of your question I think you qualified in a drastic fashion.   The initial question was in shooting were you defending comrades present at the scene, only those present at the scene.

ANSWER: I was protecting the comrades that were present at the scene because all the people that were there were comrades.
QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: : ...statement in your application, Mr Chairman this is on the paginated papers, this is page 7, page 8 and page 9.   I'm going to show you these papers and indicate whether you are aware of the statement.   Mr Chairman it may have been attached as Annexure to the application itself.

CHAIRPERSON: : It goes up to page 10 amongst my papers.
2b	QUESTIONS /...
MR MPSHE	104	P LEBONA
QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you remember that statement?

ANSWER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: : I think you should find out if he can read that because it is not in his handwriting.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you write that one as well, were you assisted in writing that one?

ANSWER: I can read and understand this, this was written by comrade Strike.

<UNKNOWN>: : If you can read and understand then you recognise everything that is thereon, am I correct?

ANSWER: This is the truth that is written here because I was telling him what was happening in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: : How do you spell the name of this witness, the person who has written this down, what is the name?

ANSWER: The member's name is Strike Mr Chairman.
2b	QUESTIONS /...
105	P LEBONA

<UNKNOWN>: : I am going to read what is on page 7 Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, certain portions thereof of page 7.   The first paragraph on page 7 reads as follows
"Post February 1990 era marked a significant hallmark in the history of our national democratic revolution.   It was during this period that we experienced the infiltration of the security system of the National Party regime into the mass base liberation force (that is the ANC and others).   Orkney branch of the ANC was no exception to those conditions of the time."
I want you to explain to this Committee what do you mean when you say "Orkney branch of the ANC was no exception to these conditions of the time"?