Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was myself, Radebe and Dube.  I was the driver.

MR SAMUEL: You were the driver.  Do you know who killed this person?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Radebe was in the back seat, so I can say it is him who killed this man.

MR SAMUEL: And did you help Mr Radebe to dispose of the body at the hotel?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Dube and I were the ones who took the body out of the car.

MR SAMUEL: Now you've heard Mr Radebe's statement that he never killed anybody, nor did you drive any vehicle on that day.  Do you recall Mr Radebe's evidence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Chairperson, I am here to tell the truth, I'm not defending anybody.  I'm here to tell the truth, so that the families of the deceased can know what happened to their people.  So if he is still denying certain things, I don't know what to say, because I am telling you what happened, I'm not hiding anything, I'm not adding anything, I'm just telling what happened as it happened.

MR SAMUEL: Just on that point, Mr Mbane, are you making application for amnesty?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No.

MR SAMUEL: So would I be correct in saying, as you just stated, that your only reason for coming before this Commission is to tell the Commission and the family of the deceased what has actually transpired, am I right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Would you get any benefit out of this disclosure?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The only thing that I would get is forgiveness, and I also want the families to know what happened to their people.

MR SAMUEL: And that this disclosure you've made freely and voluntarily, am I right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now let's go back to this point where Ms Ntombi was becoming suspicious because she hadn't seen the four people that she had given you - the there people that she had given you all, and she wanted to see one of the persons.  You mentioned that you all had your own discussion, could you just elaborate on that, was the discussion just between yourself, Mr Radebe and Mr Dube, or were your seniors involved at that stage?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, they were there.

MR SAMUEL: Pardon?  Are you saying that your seniors were also involved in the discussion?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, they were present, it is where they decided that I should bring Ntombi.

MR SAMUEL: Were you given any specific instructions in this regard, the bringing of Ntombi to them?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We went to fetch her because we were given instructions to bring her and then she would be interrogated and asked questions about the four comrades.

MR SAMUEL: And who gave you this instruction?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were talking with Botha.  He is the person that we used to talk to, and Coetzer.

MR SAMUEL: You see in our evidence when we were putting your version to the various witnesses, we also mentioned that Taylor gave some instructions, would that be correct?  Or am I mistaken?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, he used to be there also.

MR SAMUEL: Now you are from Vlakplaas, am I right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: And you were under the direct command, or indirect command of Eugene de Kock, is that correct?  From Vlakplaas.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He was the Commander in Vlakplaas, but he was not here, he was not involved.

MR SAMUEL: And Joe Coetzer, was he also attached to Vlakplaas?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct, we came with him from Vlakplaas.

MR SAMUEL: Now did you tell Joe Coetzer that your superiors, Mr Botha and Taylor and others had asked you to go and get Ms Ntombi Kubheka?  The reason why I ask this is that Mr Coetzer made a statement, stating that he came to know about this abduction from you, do you know anything about that conversation between Mr Coetzer and Mr Eugene de Kock?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't understand the question.

MR SAMUEL: Let me put it this way ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, first of all, before you elaborate it, Mr Samuel, "Did you tell Coetzee that Botha and/or Taylor, your seniors, had asked you to fetch the deceased?"

MR SAMUEL: Sorry, Mr Chairman, it's Mr Coetzer, not Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: Coetzer, sorry.  Did you tell Joe Coetzer that you had been asked or told to fetch the deceased?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: There's no way that he would not know this, because they would discuss these things and then they would then give us instructions.  So in other words, he knew about this.

CHAIRPERSON: The question, if you can listen to the question, Mr Mbane.  The question was, did you tell Coetzer that you had been told to fetch the deceased?  I'm not asking whether Coetzer knew about the deceased being fetched, but the question that Mr Samuel asked you was, did you yourself, tell Coetzer that you had been told by other officers to fetch the deceased?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I would not have reported something that he knew, because they had discussed this.

MR SAMUEL: If we may proceed, Mr Chairman, I'll leave that point aside ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Samuel, you're putting something to this witness on the basis that that's what he said in his statement, which statement are you referring to?

MR SAMUEL: No, Sir, I'm referring to Joe Coetzer's statement.

MR LAX: Yes, I want to know which one in particular.  Because I've just read through the statement in the bundle at page 102 of bundle 2 and he doesn't say that at all.  I just don't want you putting the wrong words in the mouth of the witness.  If you look at page 102 at the top, paragraph 6.

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.

MR LAX: He says he can remember the following facts and then he sets out what he can remember, and he got the information from members of the Security Branch, Durban.

MR SAMUEL: yes, unfortunately that was the Afrikaans version, I have the English translation.  I withdraw that question, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbane, we come to the point, so you all got these instructions to bring Ntombi to your seniors, am I right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Can you proceed from there, what happened?

MR LAX: Well who gave you the instruction?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We would be called, all of us, and then Radebe would be given instructions and he would then give us instructions, as our senior.

MR LAX: Is this your assumption, or is this a fact that you remember?  Because the way you've put it, you've said "We would be called."  Do you not remember and are you just making an assumption about what would have happened, or do you actually remember it?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What would happen, Radebe would be called and given orders and then if we were not satisfied about what Radebe told us, Botha or Coetzee would come and explain to us, but they were giving instructions to Radebe.

MR LAX: Yes, but in this instance we want to know who gave you this specific instruction.  Can you remember?  If you can't remember, say you can't remember.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: If I can still remember well, it was Botha.  If I can still remember well.

MR LAX: And was it Botha directly to you, or via Radebe?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: If my memory serves well, he instructed Radebe and then we had some questions and Botha then came directly to us and he said that Ntombi would show them where the other four were.

MR LAX: Please continue.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: ...(no interpretation)

MR LAX: Sorry, there's a problem, we're not getting any translation I'm afraid.