Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I was using people that I knew, that they were coming into South Africa on a regular basis and I would send him to the people that I knew in South Africa.  The person that I would send, I would give him full information concerning the person that I want, and then he would bring the phone numbers of that particular person and then I would keep contact with that person.

MR RICHARD: So it was based, who you recruited was based on your memory of who was in South Africa and you were out of South Africa from 1976 to 1991?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, this is very interesting, but with respect, it's really got no relevance.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it going to be denied that he was recruiting people?  What is the relevance of this, in respect of your clients?

MR RICHARD: The relevance is that as far as I can understand, everything that this applicant did as far as this particular transaction and these particular events that we're considering, was outside the South African border and in fact there's no amnesty  ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's what you've established already.

MR RICHARD: Having said that, I'm not quite sure how much further to go, except in relation to what might be useful when it comes to questioning Mr McBride.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know if that's recruiting, if, how he recruited people and why and how he did it, telephone calls and sending messages, it's not going to really take us much further.

MR RICHARD: Chair, I accept it was an overkill, I've established the extra-territorial activity.

JUDGE PILLAY: You almost revived it.

MR RICHARD: To end before one, I simply go to paragraph 16 of B4, do you confirm what you say there?
"I do not have a specific recollection of the period around June 1986 and cannot positively say whether I provided comrade Robert with materials which were used in the Why Not? explosive."
Is that what you confirm?

MR BERGER: No Chairperson, it goes a little further than that.

CHAIRPERSON: It's quite possible that this is so.

MR RICHARD: My next question is...

CHAIRPERSON: I mean, that's the question, do you confirm that paragraph?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: And it's equally possible that you did not?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's, isn't that a natural conclusion, if it's possible that it's so, then it's possible that it's not so as well, because possibility's got a meaning.

MR RICHARD: Before I conclude, may I confirm with the applicant, the respondents that ...
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps Mr Prior wants to ask a couple of questions.  Do you mind...

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I was going to suggest that in order to save some time, I've only got one or two points to canvass and possibly if Mr Richard needs to come back to anything, he can do that after I've, unless there's an objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you can do it, it doesn't really matter.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Pule, from the information which was collated and put before the Committee, we understand that Mr McBride was in Botswana from the 6th to the 11th of June 1986.  Are you aware of that or have you seen any information, have you read any of the documents that were prepared in this matter which may jog, or not, your memory?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I did see that in the papers.

ADV PRIOR: And it would seem that three days after that, he returned to the Republic on the 11th of June and on the 14th of June the car bomb exploded at the Parade Hotel, that's on the information that we have.  Were you, there's also information that you were arrested on the 11th of June 1986, can you remember that event?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: You mean the 11th of June?

ADV PRIOR: If that's not the correct date, then you can say so, but were you arrested at about that time?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Who arrested me?  Are you referring to Botswana police or South African police?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, were you arrested by anybody on or about the 11th of June?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I was arrested in Botswana, but I do not remember the exact date.

ADV PRIOR: I just refer to the Committee to paragraph 13, or page 13 of A1, which was information put together by our investigative unit.  It's basically for background.  I want to just try and get the witness to, maybe he recalls that particular period.  If it was the 11th of June, it would seem that you were in Botswana at the time when Mr McBride was taking instruction from Mr Ismail and a final briefing about what was to happen when he returned to the Republic.  If you can't remember that, sorry I ...

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I do not remember.

ADV PRIOR: I stopped because I see Mr Pule seems to be conferring with people to his left, I don't want to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pule if you could just concentrate on what Mr Prior's asking you.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, may I just correct for the record.  Mr Pule was not conferring with me at all.  Mr McBride was talking to me, sorry and my volume is being used by Mr Pule and I just thought out of courtesy I should ...

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I simply raised it, that's why I stopped, because I saw he was...

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just put the question.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, but before Mr Prior puts the question, we don't know where this information comes from, but if one reads that whole paragraph, it seems that the information is a little faulty.  It talks about Mr Pule now being the Ambassador to Botswana.

JUDGE PILLAY: He's allegedly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think just get to the crux of it.

ADV PRIOR: He can deny it with respect, I don't, you know, if we can just get on with it.  He says he was arrested, he can't remember if it was at that time and I've invited him, if it wasn't the 11th of June, then he can say so.  Are you saying you can't remember being arrested on the 11th of June?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I do not dispute that because I was arrested on a number of occasions in Botswana.

ADV PRIOR: Alright, do you have any recollection of seeing Mr McBride in Botswana between the 16th and the 11th of June 1986?  I know your statement has said you have no ...

CHAIRPERSON: Between the 6th and the 11th.

ADV PRIOR: Between the 6th and the 11th, yes.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I do not remember the date, but I am sure that that was before the 16th when I met him.

ADV PRIOR: And we heard yesterday from Mr Ismail that on that occasion, or over that period, before he returned to the Republic, he had been shown how to construct a car bomb.  Were you present on those occasions?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Even though I was in Botswana then, when Mr Ismail gave instructions to comrade McBride, I wasn't present.

ADV PRIOR: So, if I may put it at this level, if it is correct that shortly before his return to the Republic, that is before the 14th of June when the bomb was detonated, would there have likely been any discussion regarding the reason for exploding or detonating such a bomb?  In other words a symbolic reason, for example the commemoration of June 16th?  Would that have likely have been the motivation for sending someone in to detonate a car bomb?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I would ask you to repeat the question, it was very long.

ADV PRIOR: I'll leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, do you want to confer with you client?

MR RICHARD: What I do need to say, there are bundles of documents which I have in my possession, which do refer to Mr Pule, but in the light of what's happened, I don't intend to traverse those documents one by one with him.  As long as my failure to do it with Mr Pule doesn't prejudice me later, I'll leave it.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I haven't finished Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry, I thought you had.

ADV PRIOR: I said I'd leave that aspect, I wasn't getting anywhere with the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, sorry.