Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

MR MACADAM: 3A - and Colonel Botha.  That's where they asked me, saying that they've heard that I've already mentioned the training outside, because the police knew and they were asking, "Where did they get the information?".  And they said since the investigation was still going on, they have to take me for a place to hide and I was told to report, I don't remember whether it was on Monday and Friday every week and they said to me, "Now you have to stop reporting.  You have to go for hiding".  I was taken by Opperman and Cloete.  They took me to a base below the Drakensberg Mountains.  It looked like a real base, because there were black men who were getting trained and I asked not to be mixed with the young men and be put alone.  However, they have been so curious and when they saw me walking around they came to me and they came to ask as to why I was there.  I told them that I'm Ndebele(?) from Rhodesia, Zimbabwe.  They told me that they were a Liberation Army from Lesotho and happened to confirm that, because I could see people like Ms(?) Mgetla(?) coming to see them.  They were getting trained by the military intelligence.  I spent some time there.  I don't remember whether it was one month or some few months and they took me back to Mkuze Camp where I found others who were running away from arrests.  So I stayed with these people who were trying to avoid arrest at Mkuze.  About a year, it was a long time.

MR MACADAM: And can you recall specifically any other persons who were at that Mkuze Camp, if you remembered them specifically, or not?

WITNESS:   I remember, like - people like this special police were running from the Trust Feed, from Trust Feed, they were there and others were avoiding criminal charges, people like Zweli Dlamini, Nyoni and

MR MACADAM: /Hlongwane,

MR MACADAM: 3A Hlongwane, they were there.  There were many.  They were staying in the camp and if it was discovered that a particular case which was directed(?) to a particular person or the charges have been withdrawn, the person will be let out of the camp.  The same happened to me while I was still there.  The violence have intensified at Mpumalanga.  Zakhele(?) ... (inaudible) was killed.  MZ, he just said that we shall go out and help, because Inkatha people were getting eliminated and he said, "Your case is over, forget about it", and I also realised that the case was over, because I met people like Van Vuuren going up and down, they didn't bother me about the case.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... in charge of that camp?

WITNESS:   I will say the formation of this camp was started by the military intelligence, because these were the people who were busy during the formation of the camp.  It was Mr Cloete, JP and someone who was referred to as Blikkie.  I don't know his real name.  He was the one who was in charge.

MR MACADAM: Could you just repeat that?  The interpretation was very bad.  I could hardly hear what the interpreter was saying.  The name of the other person.  You mentioned Cloete, JP and a third name, which I couldn't catch.

WITNESS:  I said at the Mkuze base the people who formed the base was the military intelligence people.  They were the people, the people who formed it were JP Opperman and another man who was referred or known as Blikkie.  He was a senior to both, to Opperman and JJ.

MR MACADAM: Sorry, if I may just go back a couple of sentences.  You mentioned that some of the people who you found at the Mkuze Camp was special constables from Trust Feeds.  As

MR MACADAM: /far

MR MACADAM: 3A far as you know were those constables who were subsequently charged with murder along with Captain Brian Mitchell?  Was it those special constables?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is.

MR MACADAM: Now can you recall who brought you to this camp when you hid there for approximately a year?

WITNESS:   I was brought by JP.

MR MACADAM: Apart from the case where you yourself went into hiding, did you yourself facilitate other persons who were wanted by the police to go into hiding?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: Approximately how many times did you do that?

WITNESS:  So many times.

MR MACADAM: How did you facilitate that process of taking them into hiding?

WITNESS:   I will just give an example about the case of Alex Khumalo which took place at Mpumalanga where he killed a person and the police were looking for him and he reported that to me.  I took him to Mkuze.

MR MACADAM: On the occasions when you yourself hid people in Mkuze, did you report that fact to any other persons, or not?

WITNESS:   The person who was in charge at Mkuze was M Z Khumalo.  Major Langeni was based in the camp.

MR MACADAM: But - he was in charge of the camp, but did you ever discuss any of this with him, or not?

WITNESS:   You are referring to Major Langeni?

MR MACADAM: No.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: Now you have told us in some considerable detail about the activities of these trainees who, for convenience purpose, we will refer to as the Caprivians.  Do you recall the Goldstone Commission or as ... (incomplete)

MR MACADAM: (END OF CASSETTE NO 3A)

MR MACADAM: /(START OF CASSETTE NO 3B)

MR MACADAM: 3B (START OF CASSETTE NO 3B)

MR MACADAM: ... an inquiry was held by that Commission into the role of the Caprivi trainees.

WITNESS:   Yes, I remember.

MR MACADAM: Did you give evidence and make statements under oath for the purposes of that Commission?

WITNESS:   Yes, I remember.

MR MACADAM: And briefly, what did you tell them about the nature of the Caprivians' activities?

WITNESS:   I didn't say anything, except that they were going to be trained as people who were to come back to protect the leadership and property.  They didn't know that they were trained on the military aspect.  I told them that they didn't know an AK47, they never used an AK47.

MR MACADAM: Did you tell them about all these attacks that you've described to us that these persons took part in, on your instructions?

WITNESS:   I didn't tell them anything about that.

MR MACADAM: Why was that?  Why didn't you tell them the things that you've told us today?

WITNESS:   It is because during those times, during the investigation, the IFP was still denying that they had trainees from Caprivi, therefore it was difficult to mention the Caprivi name during the time and we denied everything.  Even before we went before the Commission we had to sit down and discuss this.  We get briefed as to what questions will be asked and we're told that we shouldn't accept anything.

MR NTSEBEZA: Excuse me.  I don't think it came out in the Afrikaans translation, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.  Can you confirm that you were instructed not to say anything about what had happened in the

MR NTSEBEZA: /Caprivi?

MR NTSEBEZA: 3B Caprivi?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: And today, what has transpired that has led you now to tell a different story before this Commission than you told the previous Commission?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is very different.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you ask the question by - was the instruction?

MR MACADAM: Okay.  If you could just clarify for the aid of the panel.  You said that you were instructed not to reveal the true nature of the activities of the Caprivians at the Goldstone Commission.  By whom were you so instructed?

WITNESS:   By M Z Khumalo.

MR MACADAM: And if you can just confirm now that there is a difference between what you have told that Commission and what you have told this Commission, what has transpired to bring about this change in your evidence?