Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

VINCENT KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I think it will be difficult to compare what happened in history and now.  I was just taking an example from history, because the things that are happening today, never happened before in history.
	As I have stated, women were not involved, they wouldn't go into the Army, into war, so these are things which happens today, therefore we cannot compare them with the things that happened in history.
	To explain things that happened in history, is just that it was the usual, the normal thing, the custom that things were taken after the battle.  I wasn't saying I am comparing things of today and things of the past.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, you evoked history and all I am trying to do is to make sure that there is no ambiguity in your answer.  I am trying to establish whether you are saying that it is usual in war for the victorious party to steal the property of the vanquished party?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Firstly, in our Zulu tradition, we don't consider that as theft, it is things that are won in the battle therefore I will say it is usual, I don't say I did it myself, but I will say it is usual, it happens.
	I have seen it happening in the fights at home when the people are fighting.  I am not saying exactly that is what happened.

MR BERGER: I think we have got to the point now where I can say to you that the property which was taken from the residents of Boipatong by the attackers, was taken as property which had been won in battle, would you agree with that?

VINCENT KHANYILE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: Can we go back now to the questioning about the SADF.  There are certain maps which my learned friend kindly provided to us.  Do you have the maps in front of you Mr Khanyile?

MR STRYDOM: Do you mean the aerial photographs Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: I am sorry, yes, I do.  Chairperson, could we mark these as Exhibit M, there is M1 and M2.  Each photograph appears to have a key attacked to it.
	M1 will be the black and white photograph and M2 will be the colour.  Mr Khanyile, do you have the photographs in front of you?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: If you look at M1, you will see that is an aerial photograph showing kwaMadala at the bottom of the photograph, Boipatong at the top of the photograph and ...

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes, I can see.

MR BERGER: And if you look and see there is a letter marked C and it points to a building at a certain intersection, at the corner of an intersection.  That building is the Trek garage at the corner of Frikkie Meyer and Nobel Boulevard.
	Can you comprehend what is being shown on this photograph?  Mr Khanyile, do you understand what is being shown and can you identify that that is the garage at the corner?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I already mentioned that I have got difficulty with reading the map, but I will agree with you as you are telling me.

MR BERGER: You can see from that corner all the way to the left of the photograph, you will see there is an area of veld between Boipatong and that road which is running there which is Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, do you see that area of veld?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes, I can see it.

MR BERGER: The statement which I was reading to you earlier, I was dealing with the statement of Jakobus Daniel Venter, and he says in paragraph 5, Exhibit L1, that he made a U-turn at Cape Gate and came back towards the open area of ground.  This would be the open area of ground between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.
	He says that when they arrived there, he saw that there was a group of approximately 500 people.  One in that group, stood up, made a hand signal and the others followed him.
	Does that ring any bells, do you know what this man is talking about?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Nothing like that happened.  We just crossed the road to the other side.

MR BERGER: He goes on in paragraph 6 to say, well I left your pardon, I have left out a sentence in paragraph 5.  He said the man made the hand signal, the crowd followed and they moved in a westerly direction towards kwaMadala hostel.  He says that his vehicle followed this group to the robot and at the robot, Corporal Van Straaten stopped oncoming traffic.
	He says shortly thereafter everybody was already over the road, he is talking about the crowd, and he then says that him, he and his vehicle, moved towards the main gate of the hostel.
	Does any of that sound familiar to you?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I will try to explain briefly.  When we came together and formed one group, I think it was at Cape Gate, we proceeded with the street which is adjacent to the (indistinct), we never use a tarred road which is adjacent to the fence.
	We proceeded towards the passengers' bridge, that is where we crossed, we proceeded towards the passengers' bridge, that is where we crossed.  We never used the Boulevard road.  The soldiers whom you said stopped their cars, I didn't see them.
	I only see soldiers on the big road called Frikkie Meyer when we were approaching this road, when we were about to cross the pedestrian bridge.  They retreated back and stopped at a garage, therefore we crossed the road and proceeded forward.
	That is what happened.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that the soldiers saw you, and then retreated away from you?

VINCENT KHANYILE: They saw us, whether they were retreating or not, I don't know, but they did move back until the stop at the garage.

MR BERGER: And then after you had crossed Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, you say that you then proceeded across the area of veld.   Do I understand you correctly that you then got back onto the main road, you went under the bridge again and you went back into kwaMadala through the main gate?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes, it is as I explained, that when we crossed the pedestrian bridge, there is a small path next to a building which joins the tarred road after you pass under the bridge.

MR BERGER: But it is correct is it not, that you then got onto the main road and you walked along the main road and you entered kwaMadala hostel back through the main gate?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Sir, Frikkie Meyer is this way, when we were coming from Boipatong, we crossed over the pedestrian bridge, we didn't cross the main road, we use a small foot path which goes along the building.  We only joined the tarred road after passing the small bridge and then we turned to our left and get to kwaMadala hostel.
	We never walked along Frikkie Meyer, we just crossed it.

MR BERGER: I understand your evidence on that point Mr Khanyile, what I am trying to ascertain is, and perhaps I can ask you this, for how long did you and the other attackers walk along the tarred road which leads into the main entrance of kwaMadala?  Can you perhaps indicate in court for how long were you on the tarred road?

VINCENT KHANYILE: What I am trying to explain to you sir, is that we never walked on the tarred road.  We crossed the Frikkie Meyer road and we used the pedestrian path when we were going to kwaMadala hostel.
	It means when we enter the tarred road after passing the small bridge, the distance from there to kwaMadala hostel is about 150 metres.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, am I correct on this, that all the attackers returned to kwaMadala through the main gate, through the same gate that they had left out of?  Am I correct on that?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now the main gate leads directly onto a tarred road, am I correct?

VINCENT KHANYILE: When you get out of kwaMadala through the main gate, you enter the tarred road which goes passed through the bridge, it is a short distance.  However, we used the pedestrian path to walk to the hostel.