Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

FERDINAND BARNARD: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee.

MR COETZEE: Thank you Sir.  Mr Barnard, how old are you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: 42 years old, Chairperson.

MR COETZEE: Where and when did you matriculate?

FERDINAND BARNARD: 1975, Roodepoort High.

MR COETZEE: And after school, what profession did you follow?

FERDINAND BARNARD: January 1976 I joined the South African Police Force where I worked until 1984, when I was sentenced to 20 years due to murder and other offences.

MR COETZEE: And while you were serving the police, what unit were you a member of?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Honourable Chairperson, I was a member of various units.  I was originally with the Uniform Branch and then I went to the Detective Branch.  I followed many courses at the Detective Branch, then I went to the Tracing Unit, then to the Unit for gang violence, which was established in Johannesburg.  It was a specialist unit.  From there I went to the Narcotics Branch where I remained until I was remanded to custody.

MR COETZEE: And while you were serving your sentence, did you still have any contact with police or State organisations?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No.  I had individual contact there with persons who were still favourably inclined towards me or with whom I was friends, but I did not have full-time liaison with the police as an organisation as such.

MR COETZEE: There has been evidence from one Theuns Kruger, did you know the person?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes I knew him in prison.

MR COETZEE: And was there any communication between you and him with regard to further period of service, were you to come out of prison?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, we were in the same section in prison and he was also a person who was a trained Special Forces operative, before he knew me.  He encountered problems in the operational area because they abducted a person and he gave the order for the person to be killed.  It was a botched abduction.  They abducted the wrong person and he gave the order for the person to be killed.  We had various discussions over the period that we spent there together.  We were there for almost three years where we had daily contact with each other and I saw that highly placed Defence Force persons would visit him on a regular basis.
END OF TAPE

FERDINAND BARNARD: Honourable Chairperson, there were only six years effective imprisonment that was given to me, the rest was concurrent and I served three years before I was released on parole.

MR COETZEE: Very well and did you then join the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: And you served in the CCB until when?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I'm not entirely certain of the circumstances surrounding the point when everything was finally scaled down, but I was there until the end of all physical operations, which was approximately 18 months.

MR COETZEE: That was until the disillusion of the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: And during this period, at a certain stage, you were in detention.  Could you please explain the circumstances of this detention to the Committee?

FERDINAND BARNARD: What took place is that Donald Aitchison was arrested in South West Africa in some or other manner.  The Defence Force traced a pager which was registered under a false name to me.  They liaised with Brixton Murder and Robber on this side and I was apprehended for questioning.

MR COETZEE: In terms of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct and after two interrogation sessions during which I reported to the CCB, it emanated that I was detained in terms of Section 29.

MR COETZEE: And for how long were you in detention?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Approximately three and a half months.  I think it was 3 months and 21 days.

MR COETZEE: After the dissolution of the CCB, what career did you follow?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I was released from detention and they gave me some money to go on holiday.  It was the Defence Force that gave me the money.  Two weeks after my return, I was immediately recruited, or my recruitment commenced as such with DCC of Military Intelligence.

MR COETZEE: And for how long were you involved with DCC?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Until its disbandment, as per the evidence of the previous witness, when everything was scaled down, when they all lost their jobs.

MR COETZEE: This was after the Goldstone Commission?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: And that is the overview of your involvement with State organisations?  With the disbandment of the DCC and also the CCB, was there any overt denial that you were involved in these organisations?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, nobody wanted any kind of contact with me.  The Defence Force denied that I was a member of the Defence Force or any of their structures.  At a certain stage Minister Roelf Meyer, in Parliament, during a debate which I also followed on television, once again betrayed me there.  If there is one greater liar than I, it would be him.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, you refer here to yourself as a liar, could you just put this into context?  Why are you referring to yourself as a liar?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson for the last 12 to 15 years I have been lying non-stop, under oath, not under oath, it was part of my daily existence.  Firstly as a result of the activities that I was involved in, it would happen that one could not tell the truth about anything.  Everything that one said with everyday, would be a lie, one would lead a double life.  That is how it developed.  That for the protection of myself and the Defence Force and the Government and so that my activities could not be traced back to me with various Judicial Commissions of Inquiry, including the Goldstone Commission and the formal post mortem inquest into the death of David Webster and my criminal trial and also before the Harms Commission, everything with the exception of my name and address was a lie.  It was either fraud or the truth that was completely twisted.  We all lied and when I saw we, I say I and the Defence Force for whom I worked.

MR COETZEE: If we could look more closely at the CCB and your recruitment into the CCB, were you ever told what the purpose of your recruitment was, for what reason were you being recruited?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, originally I wasn't completely certain of who these persons were, what their specific function was.  I thought it was an Intelligence organisation, but with my recruitment strange things happened and this bothered me and that made me go to Theuns Kruger to go and make further inquiries, but what these people wanted and were intensely interested in from the very beginning and I might as well include DCC in this, they were interested in my criminal contacts, my contacts in the criminal underworld, the networks that I had due to my contacts as a policeman, the informers that I had handled, I had to expand and develop this.

MR COETZEE: Were you told for what purpose it was important for them that you would have these contacts and networks at your disposal?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Initially I was told that it would be for the purposes of collecting intelligence, but later it became very clear that that would not be the purpose.

MR COETZEE: Could we then begin at this stage, who is the person that recruited you, with the exception of Theuns Kruger who introduced you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Joe Verster personally recruited me.

MR COETZEE: Were there any other persons involved, with the exception of Joe Verster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: With the exception of him, there would be Danie Phaal, he was the Security Head of the CCB, he used names such as Frank, Johan and James on certain occasions as well, but it was Danie Phaal and then ...

INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the second name.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we just got a message through from the interpreter saying:  "Didn't get the second name".  Danie Phaal and ?