Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.

MR DREYER: Just one further aspect with regards to the ear.  Evidence was given by Mr Kloppers that he would have received the instruction from Oelofse to cut off the ear, do you remember that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I remember that he testified to that extent, yes.

MR DREYER: Yesterday when you testified you said that first when you were in the vehicle you heard that the ear was cut off, is that correct?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct.

MR DREYER: You only heard about this in the vehicle, the fact that the ear was cut off.   Now I would like to refer you to paragraph 19 on page 98 of your application.   Now this refers to a stage when you already left the roadblock and you were at the town hall at Randfontein and then you went to the house of Jaco Badenhorst, and I read you paragraph 19
"We all got together again at Jaco Badenhorst's house.   Therefore Klopper asked who shot.   The people who had weapons all confirmed that they did indeed.   Phil Klopper then showed us the ear of a black person and said that he would give that the next day to General Oelofse."
	Now I would just like to know, yesterday you testified that only in the car, now this is before this that you hear about the ear, and now in your application you say that at the house of Jaco Badenhorst he showed you the ear?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Chairperson, what happened here was, at the scene I was with Kloppers, Martin and Diedericks now stayed behind with them, and when these things happened, and then when we were on our way home, when we wanted to drop off Diedericks, then he showed me the ear, so I did see the ear there, and I once again saw it at Badenhorst's house.

MR DREYER: So that was the second time?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR DREYER: I understand.   Well let's leave it there.

MR MALAN: Can I just ask something here please?   It's quite a horrid bit, this thing about the ear, where did you say you saw the ear the first time?

MR MALAN: In the car when we left the scene of the crime, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Where in the car was the ear?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: In a bag.

MR MALAN: Wasn't it in the boot of the car?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: It was with you inside the car?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.

MR DREYER: Just on the same topic, was it a shocking event for you, the showing of the ear?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It was a - I had a shocking impression.

MR DREYER: But nowhere in your application you said that he showed the ear to you in the vehicle?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: If I saw it in the vehicle or at the house, I saw the ear.

MR DREYER: All that I want to know, that you do agree that in your application there's no indication that you've already seen the ear in the motor car, but you only saw it at their house.   Then another aspect, on page 19 you say, I would just like to know, because the same contradiction appeared in the evidence of Mr Klopper and I would just like to clear that with you, I refer to paragraph 19 of page 98, you say there that
"Phil Klopper asked who shot.   The people who had firearms confirmed."
Do you understand that word, it means yes?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, yes.

MR DREYER: Well in both the evidence of you and Mr Klopper, I picked it up yesterday and yesterday you testified again that the people denied, and I thought maybe that I heard wrongly, and then you qualified it by saying, "I do not know if they were scared"?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yesterday I said that they admitted or confirmed that they shot.

MR MALAN: Mr Dreyer, I think you misunderstood it, he said that the people were scared saying that they did not shoot.

MR DREYER: I wasn't very sure, I just wanted clarity on that.   I will put it to you, in conclusion, that no order was given to Mr Klopper, and as far as you believe that there was such an order, I believe that your action afterwards, or followed on that order, but I will put it clearer to you, the only reason why you believed you had an order or instruction was that because you believed that Klopper received such an instruction from Oelofse, is that correct?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, thank you.  Mr Visser, after the roadblock had been set up and you stopped these two vehicles, these people were taken out of the vehicles and as I understood your evidence, you said Kloppers and Martin asked them to which political party they belonged.   Did you say that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, Mr Chair.

MR BRINK: Did you hear any answer from the people being questioned about their political affiliation?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: I just want to tell you that the evidence will be that at no stage did anyone ask the people in those vehicles questions relating to their political affiliation.   I'm merely telling you that.	  Now is it not the truth that that night you people drank a considerable quantity of liquor, brandy and whisky?   In other words, you were quite drunk?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, a bottle of brandy or a half a bottle of whisky is not a lot if you share it amongst nine people.

MR BRINK: Well was there a bottle of whisky and a bottle of brandy between the nine of you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: There was at Mr Visser's flat a bottle of whisky, from which we drank, and at Mr Martin's house there was approximately half a bottle of brandy.

MR BRINK: Was that to give you so-called Dutch courage?
TAPE TURNED OVER - WORDS LOST

MR MALAN: Concerning the alcohol, can you remember that there was brandy at Mr Martin's house and it was poured into two bottles and it was mixed and that it was placed one in each car?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I can remember that.

MR MALAN: Can you remember that one of the bottles was in one of the vehicles in which you drove?   Was that with Mr Kloppers and Diedericks?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you drink with them?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, I did not drink from the brandy, or of the brandy.

MR MALAN: Who else drank of it, because it seems as if just Mr Kloppers drank?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I cannot say, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But you definitely did not drink with them?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I drank the whisky.

MR MALAN: No, I'm talking about the alcohol in the vehicle?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, definitely.

MR MALAN: Then it seems, as far as Mr Kloppers' evidence is concerned, that he only, he was the only person who drank?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It seems like it, yes.

MR MALAN: And following on Mr Brink's question to you, you gave evidence or testified that at the road, or what happened at the roadblock, you said that the people was placed next to an embankment, Diedericks and Van der Schyff searched the vehicles, Kloppers and Martins questioned the people, questions was put to them regarding where they come from, where they're going, and you said, and also concerning the affiliation, and you assumed that they were ANC members, you did not hear them give the answer, but you only assumed it?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Chairperson, the people answered softly, you couldn't hear them, but I did not hear it.

MR MALAN: You only assumed it?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Are you sure that questions was put to them regarding their political affiliation?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It was said to us that this will be the question.

MR MALAN: I understand that, but I would like to know if you indeed heard that the question was put to them?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I heard the question.

MR MALAN: Now I want to know if you heard the question regarding the political affiliation?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, yes.