Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

MR PRIOR: Along the road were you told that you were now going to do the something that you done on the two previous occasions, that is attack white motorists?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: When we arrived at the place of the operation, Comrade Dolo told us that were going to engage in a ambush, were going to attack cars belonging to whites.

MR PRIOR: Where there any discussion about whether any vehicles drive by any other racial groups for example, black people, were there any precautions to be taken?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, we were told about that.

MR PRIOR: What were the precautions that you had to take?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Comrade Dolo said to us we should take that we do not attack cars belonging to Africans, because white others thing of making black people to drive for them and sit on the other side, as passengers.  So he said we should take it not to injure Africans, that is how he gave me an order to go and be on the lookout as to whether all passengers in the car are all white.

MR PRIOR: Did you just, did you have binoculars with you or some apparatus that you could see more clearly?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I didn't have any binoculars.

MR PRIOR: That vehicle that you attacked there was being driven by Mr Schroeder, who was a Coloured man, not a white man.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what Mr Schroeder looked like?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I only saw white people in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) Coloured in this country to cover a wide range of features.

MR PRIOR: I won't pursue that at this time, I'm, unfortunately the family didn't arrive yesterday and I needed to speak to them about that.  If I may hold that aspect over?
Well, let me move on.  The vehicle that came from the Herschel side that stopped as you say and picked up these white people, we know that was Mr Tsemane, a black man.  Yet he was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't know that it was Mr Tsemane in that car.  But what I saw was that he was dead by the time the car fell over the bridge.

MR PRIOR: We understand your evidence that you were very far from that point where Mr Tsemane picked up the white people.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: By that time I was trying to get to my Comrades, moving away from the position where I gave the signal and I was running by then, and it was misty.  I couldn't see clearly.

MR PRIOR: So you were unable to see who the driver was at that stage of that vehicle who had picked up the white people?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: From firing at the vehicle driven by the white man who reversed, that is when Mr Dolo gave you the R4, did you fire any other shots on that occasion?  From any other weapon?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.  I only fired shots from the R4.

MR PRIOR: Where you next to Scorpion, or with Scorpion when he shot the person on the road?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I was far from him.

MR PRIOR: Where you able to see how Scorpion managed to shoot this person?  Let me make it easier, was this person running away at the time that Scorpion shot him?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, the person was running away.

MR PRIOR: When Scorpion fired he fell down?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, he fell down.

MR PRIOR: And then Dolo, Mr Dolo went up to him, this person with his R4 rifle, is that correct?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: I move on.  Are you able to tell us how many times Scorpion fired at this person, or are you unable to say?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I can't tell how many times he fired.

MR PRIOR: More than once?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I'm saying is that I can't explain how many times he fired, because what happened is that I heard the sound from the R4 after Comrade Scorpion fired.  There was a gunshot, as you know that an R4 is a big sound.  I only heard that sound.

MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo was, in relation to that person who had been shot by Scorpion, could you see where he was, and the body at that stage?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you repeat your question?

MR PRIOR: Could you see where Mr Dolo was when you heard the R4 fire?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I could see.

MR PRIOR: The rifle was pointed at the man's head.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I couldn't see where the gun was placed.  All I heard was the gun 4 sound, the R4 sound.

MR PRIOR: Where you able to see that person before he was shot by Mr Dolo, or not?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you repeat your question.

MR PRIOR: Did you, were you able to see this man who was shot by Dolo before he was shot by Dolo?  Was he, I want to establish whether you saw him, whether he was moving, or whatever.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: From where I was standing, I couldn't see what was happening.  I couldn't see whether the person was moving or not.

MR PRIOR: What was Roger doing at that stage?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Me and Roger were standing on the bridge by that time, looking down where the white female was lying, who seemed dead, together with Tsemane.

MR PRIOR: When the vehicle with the females arrived on the scene, is it not correct, according to one of their affidavits, Mrs Booysen, the firearms, or firearms were pointed at them?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, no-one pointed guns at them.  I think they were frightened by the gun Dolo was having, because it was a big rifle.  The guns we had on us were put away so as not to frighten those people.  But Comrade Dolo didn't have a place where he could hide is gun because it was a big one.

ADV SANDI: Where did you hide your guns away?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: We put them in our pockets, because we had dustcoats on us and these coats have big pockets, that's how we could hide our guns.

CHAIRPERSON: You've said through the "we" word, you were the person known as Kleintjie, is that correct?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Roger was there and Scorpion.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, they were there.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you call the first applicant?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I used to call him Kenny.

CHAIRPERSON: And that, there was only the four of you there?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got your amnesty application before you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I've got it.

CHAIRPERSON: On page 11 you have set out details of the incidents you were involved in, is that so?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Which of these, those events, is the one you are talking about?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It is the incident of Lady Grey.

CHAIRPERSON: Lady Grey ...(inaudible)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes. Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And who did you say were involved?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It was me, Comrade Dolo - Phila Dolo - Kenny, Roger and Scorpion.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) who is Jabo?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I can't remember who Jabo is.  I can't remember him, but what I know is that it was me, Comrade Phila Dolo, Roger and Scorpion.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't remember Jabo, but you put him in your application.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: There were reason for me not to remember him why is that by the time I made my application, no-one helped me, no-one led me and there are so many names involved here.  Maybe I think an error was committed here regarding names.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that two persons was killed in this attack and three injured.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's not what you've told us today.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I can't remember some of the facts clearly.  I only remember them when my Comrades reminds me of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you remember that two people were killed in the vehicle that went off the bridge, that you stood and looked at, at that somebody else was shot in the head on the road?  You say you can't remember that.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I remember about those two people who I looked at from the bridge.

CHAIRPERSON: At the man who was shot by Scorpion and Dolo?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes I also remember him.