Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: It was not an open meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Only specific people were invited?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And was he invited?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: He knew about the meeting?  Did he know about the meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, that is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was he informed and notified about the meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He knew about the meeting.

MR P DU PLESSIS: How did you know, were you people notified by phone, by letter?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We would telephonically be advised about the meeting, and we would have links daily with other people.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Which other people sir, the people attending the meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right, for instance Regina worked at UWC for the SRC, I would link up with her daily and so would Peter.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, you had daily links to all these people I mentioned here?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Of the Cape Youth Congress, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not all, but some of the people in the area, closer to us.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Fine, but the fact of the matter is, he knew he had to attend the meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you say they had to start at what time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Excuse me?

MR P DU PLESSIS: The Cape Youth Congress meeting had to start when?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The time that people were supposed to be meeting?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: At CRIC?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not what time the meeting started, the pick up point would have been CRIC, it would have been passed eight.

MR P DU PLESSIS: No sir, if someone tells me to be at a specific point passed eight, I wouldn't know when to be there.  What was the specific time, was there a specific time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Eight or soon thereafter.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And when would the meeting then convene?  As soon as you get to the point where you have the meeting, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct, it could, that point could be three, or four, or five kilometres away.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Fine.  Do you go to this specific point in cars?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Excuse me?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you supposed to go by car to this specific meeting point?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not necessarily.  Some people came by foot, some people came by car.  Depending where, in which area you were and there were always enough lifts.

MR P DU PLESSIS: What I mean is, you meet at CRIC?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now from there you move to the point where you decide to have the meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So it depends whether, how far it is?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.  No, no, if you go to CRIC and for instance say we would go to St George's Hall, we would take our cars there, but everyone who came to CRIC, might not necessarily have cars.  You could get into another car, as easy as that, sir.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I see.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We shared.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You see, why I am asking you this as well, Mr Williams also made a statement and in his statement he says the following
"... at that stage (referring to after the adjournment of the Kewtown Youth Movement meeting) other people arrived who were also holding a meeting, they were from the Cape Youth Congress.  At that stage we stood outside the building.  The people from the Cape Youth Congress then asked me if they could also make use of the building.  I then told them that they could use the building."
	Is that correct?

MR LAX: Where are you referring to, just for the record?

MR P DU PLESSIS: I am reading at page 213, Mr Chairperson, bundle D, page 213.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Can I answer?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I cannot remember the detail, but I have already told you that we decided on an ad hoc basis that we would meet at the ELC on that night.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  But it is clear, I put it to you, from this, that Mr Peter Williams who was supposed to attend the meeting, does not seem as if he was aware that there was a meeting, and he wasn't notified?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, he would have been notified.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you agree with me in the way that he states it here, it does not seem as if he was aware of such a meeting taking place?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is your opinion sir.  I would have to agree, but he was notified.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you saying you assume that he was notified, or do you know personally as you sit here, that he was in fact notified?  Were you present when he was notified or did you notify him  yourself, what are you saying?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Your Worship, it would be my assumption, because we had links with other people daily, at UWC, within the area, with other Youth.  I am assuming at this point that he was notified.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You see we find the same in Nazeema Mohammed's statement on page 226 where she says
"... on that night we asked Peter Williams if we could use one of the building's rooms for our meeting.  He agreed and all of us ..."
	and then she carries on, the same aspect?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sir, I said that we decided on an ad hoc basis that we would meet there, so that is it.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But he is supposed to know about the fact that he will have to go to CRIC otherwise he will miss the meeting, may I remind you, was set for eight or as soon as possible thereafter, and we don't find any indication in Mr Williams' statement that indicates that he was aware that he had to go to CRIC to meet up with you people?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sir, the Cayco meeting didn't come out of a vacuum, it was publicised to the branches, to the members at Executive level and yes ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you have agendas and minutes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you have that available for that evening?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: What happened to those documents sir, you had a meeting, so surely some of it had to be noted before the bomb exploded.  What happened to those minutes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I wasn't the Secretary at that meeting, sir.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And what happened to the agenda, because you had an agenda for the evening, correct, which would state the date and the time, isn't it?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.  It wasn't a typed agenda, it was something that we would prepare amongst ourselves.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You would prepare ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Amongst ourselves, we would prepare amongst ourselves.  I am not the Secretary to that forum.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  And let's have a look at this, in Shinaaz Limera's statement on page 209, she states
"... On the  31st of August (that is page 209, bundle D) at approximately eight o'clock, I was at the Early Learning Centre in Springbok Street, Athlone, to attend a meeting of the Cape Youth Congress (sorry Mr Chairman, this I cannot really make out this part of the handwriting) we held our meeting ...

MR LAX: Mr du Plessis, it is on page 1 of bundle D.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Bundle D?   Let me read then again, paragraph 1, page 1,  bundle D
"... when we entered the building, there were already people inside the building.  We held our meeting in the boardroom.   On the same date, at approximately 20H35, I heard a loud noise ..."
	and from this nothing appears of the fact that these people of the Cape Youth Congress were going to meet at CRIC at about eight o'clock?  Here it is stated as a virtual fact that at eight o'clock this good lady was at Early Learning Centre, Athlone, and that the meeting was in progress as from then, do you agree with me?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In terms of the statement, but I must say that I know from my experience that the meeting started at 25 past eight, in terms of Cayco.