Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-15

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes his evidence, does it?

MR MTEMBU: That is correct Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: All right, we will take the adjournment now.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, we are slightly pressed for time, I do have the other witnesses in the other matter that will be here after two o'clock, could I ask the Committee whether we could take a shorter adjournment than the full hour?

CHAIRPERSON: I was going to suggest until 1.45.

MR PRIOR: As you please Mr Chairman.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got your next applicant?

MR MTEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have the next applicant which is my last applicant in this matter Mr Chairman, Lungisa Mzwonka Ntintili.  May he be sworn in Mr Chairman.

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ntintili ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, is he using earphones, are they tuned to the right thing?

MR LAX: Mr Ntintili, it might help to wear the earphones, you can actually hear better, even if you are going to be speaking English.  Just put them to channel 2 on the side there.  Can you hear me properly now?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: Yes.

MR LAX: You can see it does actually help a bit.  Thank you, we are in your hands Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ntintili, do you confirm that the affidavit before the Committee has been made by you and you abide by it?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I will just go to, I will deal only with paragraphs 4 and 5 of his affidavit, just for clarification, for him to clarify before this Committee.
	Mr Ntintili, paragraph 4 reads thus I became indirectly involved in the APLA operation in Yellowwoods Hotel in 1993, by delivering arms and ammunition which were left by comrade Thembalani Nqundu to Mqelo location on the 16th of February 1993, the day I was arrested at Komga T-junction.
	Can you elaborate on this and tell the Committee how did it come that you have these arms and you were asked to deliver them at Mqelo base and by whom?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: Yes, as we left last week with the question of these arms which were left to me as I have said here, there was that time when the Euro Settler regime Police were up and up looking for me, then I had to leave the area of Thembasa where I was teaching.
	Then I left for Transkei and now I was directly in contact with some of the comrades, especially who were in the High Command, like comrade Scomiso Nunxuba.
	I gave a report to them that where the ammunition were and at a later stage, at the beginning of 1993, when I was supposed to go for registration at Fort Hare, then I informed comrade Nunxuba, because I was supposed to report each and every time that I am going to leave Transkei area, to the comrades in the High Command.
	Then I told him that I was supposed to go to Fort Hare for registration and things, then it was then that he told me that I should also, if I will have transport, take those equipment that were left with me, and deliver them to the location, that is by the name of Nqelo.
	That I did, then that was the day when I went to Thembasa and I took the whole ammunition and the arms and I was driving a Saffire, which I borrowed from one chap in Transkei, and I took them straight to Mqelo location, where I handed over them to Shorts.

MR LAX: Sorry, we didn't catch the person's name, could you just repeat that please?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: I handed over them to Shorts, that is Shooter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What is his proper name?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: I don't know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: For the record Mr Chairman, it is Vuyisile Madasi, Brian Madasi.
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  I will move just lastly to paragraph 5.  I discovered that a warrant of arrest was issued after the attack at Fort Beaufort, but they could not get me.  Can you explain to the Committee how did you come to know that a warrant of arrest had been issued against you?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: Yes, first and foremost you will remember that I was once arrested on this day that I was delivering this ammunition and this arms.  That was on the 16th of February 1993.
	Then during my arrest, there was a lot of torture that was done as I once said in this Commission.  After I was released and I was deported to Transkei by the Security regime, I mean Security Police.
	Then there was a time when I had to make some civil claim which I did, and it went up to Grahamstown Supreme Court and it was then that I discovered because there were documents that the affidavit from the Euro Settler Security Police and the affidavits from me, which were exchanged with the lawyers and it was then that I saw that there were two warrants of arrest.
	There was a warrant of arrest for Fort Beaufort attack and there was also a warrant of arrest for the East London attack, that is how I got to know that there was a warrant of arrest for me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: .

MR MTEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions from me.

MR MTEMBU: .

MR PRIOR: Thank you.  Mr Ntintili, it would seem then that you supplied the arms to Mr Madasi, which were then eventually used in the Yellowwoods Hotel attack.  It would seem a few days more than a month, before the actual attack.  We know the attack was the 20th of March and you say you delivered the arms on the 16th of February, is that correct?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: Yes.

MR LAX: Could you just come a little closer to the microphone if you answer, please.

MR PRIOR: How familiar were you with ammunition and arms, arms and ammunition?  Could you identify firearms and could you identify ammunition?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: I think I just know it from a general knowledge, but I am not familiar with the ...

MR PRIOR: Calibers?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: Sorry?

MR PRIOR: Calibers, can you say whether certain ammunition is 7.62 mm or other calibers or are you unable to say that?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: With great respect Your Honour, I think you understand that my profession is teaching, and I am not a soldier, therefore I don't know those things.

MR PRIOR: Yes.  Did you know anything about, were you informed at any stage after your arrest, that the operation at Fort Beaufort was to be called off because of your arrest?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: No.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR PRIOR: .

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just as a follow up to the last question of Mr Prior, Adv Prior, did you know anything about the operation at Fort Beaufort?

LUNGISA MZWONKA NTINTILI: Actually I think I indicated when I was here last time, that this was a process and the call was made in 1986.  I indicated therefore that there was a lot of deployment of APLA operatives, so therefore I was not exactly, specifically knowing where the operation would be done, but I was just aware that APLA has been deployed and the objective of that deployment was to attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: I take it, are there any witnesses to be called, because I wish to call Mrs Jerling.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, there are no other witnesses at this stage that we are going to call.

MR PRIOR: Do you confirm that Mr Mtembu?

MR MTEMBU: I do Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am afraid I am a little confused.  Have we had the name mentioned here of a senior Commander who may be giving evidence at a later stage?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I indicated even yesterday Mr Chairman, that I have contacted him about this matter, giving evidence, but not at this stage Mr Chairman.
	As I have indicated that he is willing and even indicated to me that even his deputies can come and give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean it might be relevant to this hearing as well, might it not?