Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR MBAMBO: We did take precautions because if we hadn't done so we would be arrested or incarcerated for these other crimes that we exposed here.

MR HEWIT: I want to look at paragraph 22 of your affidavit.  In that paragraph which is headed
"Meeting at Shlanganani Hall eSikhawini"
you say that in late February or early March 1992 you attended a meeting:
"and the people present were Chief Mataba, Mrs Mbuaze, Mr Bebe Biele, Mr Ginam Mkhize, Brian Mkhize, Victor Buthelezi and myself"
do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And then on paragraph 24 of your affidavit you state that at that meeting it was further suggested by Mrs Mbuaze that
"firearms and explosives as well the names of persons to be eliminated be kept by ourselves"
do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And then you stated also in that paragraph
"the names of the persons suggested to be eliminated was Captain Masinga, Captain Manzini and Sergeant Dlamini"

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: So was it decided at that meeting, which is February or March '92, that Dlamini was to be murdered?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: When was Dlamini actually murdered?

MR MBAMBO: In 1993.

MR HEWIT: What month in 1993?

MR MBAMBO: I think it was between June and May.

MR HEWIT: And once you'd received an instruction to eliminate someone, did you have to obey that instruction?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: You couldn't disobey it under any circumstances?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Could you quarrel with that instruction?

MR MBAMBO: We were expected to do as we were instructed and that's it.

MR HEWIT: You couldn't persuade the hierarchy not to carry out the instruction or that they should abandon the instruction?

MR MBAMBO: No, we would not, we would only suggest.

MR HEWIT: Well please have a look at paragraph 29.  In paragraph 29 you state
"The list of names that were discussed at the first meeting were handed to us by M Z Khumalo and he asked us whether we knew these people"
do you remember saying that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now do you remember when that meeting was in relation to the first on in February or March '92?  How long after was that second meeting?

MR MBAMBO: Two weeks did not lapse before we were called to Ulundi.

MR HEWIT: And then in that paragraph you say
"We informed him that we all knew of them except Mgwaie.  We then discussed Detective Sergeant Khumalo and we informed them that we were not quite satisfied that he was involved with the ANC and that we would wanted a chance to monitor his movements"

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Didn't you raise those objections at the first meeting?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Why not?

MR MBAMBO: There was no opportunity to suggest that.

MR HEWIT: Is that because you didn't have any role of questioning orders, you just simply had to accept them and carry them out?

MR MBAMBO: We had an opportunity.

MR HEWIT: Well why did you at the second meeting tell you that you weren't going to carry out the order in effect?

MR MBAMBO: This would not be accepted, it would actually upset the local leadership because they were the ones who were directly involved pertaining to Sergeant Khumalo.  And the leadership at Ulundi got information from the eSikhawini local leadership.  If the leadership at Ulundi advised that we did not continue with the killing of Sergeant Khumalo and if the eSikhawini leadership suggested that we continue, the Ulundi instruction would outweigh that from eSikhawini and therefore we would follow the Ulundi instruction.

MR HEWIT: Who actually finally decided that Dlamini should be killed?

MR MBAMBO: I on that day had a meeting with Captain Masinga, my branch commander.

MR HEWIT: Yes, carry on.  And?

MR MBAMBO: After the discussion I went to Ginam Mkhize's office at the Reaction Unit and we left for Mrs Mbuaze's place and informed her and after that the three of us went to Shlanganani Hall where she phoned Brigadier Umzumela and after that a call came from Ulundi and that was Captain Langene on the line and he gave an instruction to ...[indistinct] Mkhize that Sergeant Dlamini must have been killed by Monday.   That was on a Friday, that day.

MR HEWIT: In paragraph 110 of your affidavit you deal with this raid on your home where various white policemen arrived and found weapons in your home, correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now when did that occur?

MR MBAMBO: It happened in '93 but I cannot remember exactly when.

MR HEWIT: Was it shortly before Dlamini was murdered?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now this raid on your home by these white policemen, Sergeant Dlamini was outside the home when they entered your home, destroyed the door and found the guns, correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And how long before that then was he killed, a day, two days?

MR MBAMBO: No, I would not say, maybe a week or two must have lapsed or a month, I cannot be sure.

MR HEWIT: And was that the incident where you saw him outside your home?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Was it obvious to you that he had brought these policemen to your home on a report by him that you had unlawful firearms in your possession?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now that is what, in April '93?

MR MBAMBO: I would not say: "no" if you say that.

MR HEWIT: What monitoring did you do of Sergeant Dlamini between February and March of 1992, before this raid on your home in '93?

MR MBAMBO: Nothing.

MR HEWIT: So you persuaded the leadership in February or March '92 that Sergeant Dlamini shouldn't be eliminated immediately but that you should monitor his activities before he was eliminated, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: We are talking about Sergeant Khumalo?

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 29 Mr Hewit, it says that they were talking about Detective Sergeant Khumalo.

MR HEWIT: May I refer also to that paragraph Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HEWIT: In paragraph 25 at the same meeting where you say
"Brigadier Umzumela mentioned that Masinga, Mazini and Dlamini were to be eliminated"
You say in paragraph 25:
"The names person decided on by the local leadership above were"
and then you mention Captain Masinga again, then you mentioned Detective Sergeant Khumalo and you also mentioned Sergeant Dlamini, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So both Khumalo and Dlamini were selected and an instruction was given to you and other members of the hit squad to eliminate him, according to the dates, during late February or early March 1992?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Right, now what I want to know is what did you do about eliminating Dlamini between February or March 1992 and the time in 1993 when these policemen raided your home and found unlawful firearms in your possession and Dlamini was outside and it was obvious to you that Dlamini had brought them there?

MR MBAMBO: It was to monitor him, trying to kill him but we failed.

MR HEWIT: Are you saying that for that entire year before, between the two dates, you were trying to kill him?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: How did you fail?