Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I found this child staying with them because he was rather familiar of those people.  We managed to get contact with this child and he didn't know that I was his uncle, I was more like a parent to this child.  I found this child staying there with those people.  There was nothing I could say, I couldn't tell him to go and stay with the father.  I could even take the child with me and stay with him because I was more like a father to him, therefore there was no problem in so doing.

CHAIRPERSON: I would ask for some assistance.  We want to know if the group was still the same as the initial group, when the deceased was seen under the guava tree and now you are mentioning this child.  We do not know as to when this child joined the group or came to the group because we haven't had yet any testimony pertaining to the child.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I am actually explaining.  I am including this child because he was among us.  Even if they say he was older, but to me he was still a child because I'm more like a parent to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he there initially when you arrived there, when you found the deceased under the guava tree?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, he also woke up.

CHAIRPERSON: The two children?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You can continue.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: He came with the wires.  I instructed Moses to shoot this person.  I told him that he should shoot this person and I was even prepared to stand for that.  He tried to shoot but the firearm did not discharge.  I thought about this failing of the firearm.  Sometimes that happens when  a person is using traditional medicine, muti, to prevent that, but before going any further, I would apologise for omitting something else, that he was first tied to a tree and I told him to shoot him while he was tied to this tree, but the firearm failed to discharge and I thought that this person maybe is very strong, as a result of a muti.  I was used to see such things.  In that situation, I decided to use my spear and I told him that:  "If this firearm of yours is failing, I am going to take over and my weapon is not going to fail."  I stabbed him with this spear about 4 times.  The fourth one is the one that led to his death because the spear penetrated and it came over to the other side.  It penetrated through to the other side.  That is when he shook.  Slowly he went down, slowly as the hands were still tied to a tree and that was a sign that his soul was released from the body and I wanted to make sure and I even touched his chest to feel the heartbeat and I wanted to put the spear right there in the heart, that is the fourth wound that actually led to his death and after that I told him to untie the deceased because he was already dead.  He did so.

MR PANDAY: Before you go any further, firstly, can you explain to the Committee why Moses had to follow your instructions to shoot the victim?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: You want to know the reason for him to obey my orders?  It is supposed to be like that.  He is supposed to take my instruction because there were a group of people or a committee who had told me to be their leader, that means that whatever I say, they should do it.  If that does not happen, if they do not listen to me, that would show disrespect to me.

MR MALAN: May I just on this point - In your evidence you said that Basil was the leader, that Moses was his assistant and that you were co-opted to just solve some problems.  Isn't that what you told us earlier?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I said so.  That is true.

MR MALAN: Now when you're co-opted to solve problems, does that put you above the leader and his assistant?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: As they had appointed me, that means that they had to take a back seat and I became the leader.  If there were problems, I was in charge of everything as one person.

MR MALAN: And if there were no problems, you would not be in charge?  Is that what you're saying?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: If there were no problems, we would just sit and relax.

MR MALAN: Would Basil still be the leader then?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: He would continue if I was not appointed, he was going to continue, but as a committee who had appointed me, it might have happened that the burden was a bit too much because I had told them that it is okay if you are going to be a leader, even if there are problems you should be brave enough to go ahead, even if the people are dying.  You are there to defend all the people.  At least you are the one who should die.  You cannot be a leader if you are not brave, if you are scared of death.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to, I had hoped Mr Panday would assist us at an appropriate stage with regard to these pertinent and relevant issues.  I have tried to exploit, I must say I'm a little taken aback by Mr Sinangwenye's concession to what has now been put to him by my brother, when he now agrees that he was co-opted to be in a position of solving problems in that whilst he was appointed to solve problems, Basil Ngwenye and Mdo continued in their respective positions of being Commander and Assistant Commander.  This is not what I have understood his testimony to be.
	It has not been clear and Mr Panday you are at fault when it comes to this little confusion, which is very relevant to the issue that we have to decide as a committee.  What I understood from the morass of evidence that has been given by Mr Sinangwenye, I understood the thrust of the evidence nevertheless to indicate the following:  That when he first arrived in the area he was just an ordinary member of the community but immediately after Mdo's death, he was, there was a suggestion that he must take over the position of being a Commander and that he should take over from Basil and from Mr Dlamini in order to protect the community from the attacks which were being launched by people from Shayamoya who wanted to get them out of the area.  Later on when I examined him on his pertinent  function as such a Commander, because what really became more apparent to me was that it seemed like his duty was to solve disputes involving dagga and cigarettes, which was very, a source of concern to me because a Commander definitely cannot be appointed a Commander to solve such silly and innocuous issues as those concerning disputes around dagga and cigarettes.  
	On further questioning, Mr Sinangwenye said something to the effect that he also had to take command with regard to the various attacks.  He mentioned that there were two such attacks, for which he had to command.  He went into very serious details with regard to one of them, to a point where I said I didn't want him to give me more details, I merely wanted to find out how many attacks were they subjected to, while he was a Commander in that area.  I am raising this because there is now this concession that he has made, that he was co-opted to this position of again solving disputes around cigarettes and other such innocuous issues which a Commander could hardly be expected to solve.  	It is an issue that Mr Panday I hope you will be able to clear immediately.  We will however now break for tea for 10 minutes.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Sorry, sorry, sorry, there is something that I want to explain to this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sinangwenye, please listen to me.  I just made a decision as the Chairperson.  We are now going to take a break.  We are going to break for tea and on our coming back you are going to put whatever to your representative.  Yes, what I've just said needs some explanation, but at the moment it's time for...  So if I've made a ruling, there are certain - we conduct these proceedings in an orderly fashion.  If I have made a ruling and I'm sure it has come through your head phones, you dare not go against my ruling, do you understand?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I understand.