Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 2000-02-04

MR GONYA: Yes, that is correct.  Yes, we were concerned and the reason for that we heard our brothers and sisters would be attending the march but when the situation came as it was, some of us were very concerned and we didn't even know what was going to happen, what was going to be the order of the day.

ADV SANDI: When you were deployed at Jongelanga Crescent and you saw this crowd of people coming, did you talk amongst yourselves as to how the situation was going to be dealt with?

MR GONYA: I was never deployed at Jongelanga Crescent.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Gonya, when Mr Mkosana gave the order or the command for the first and second time, the troops didn't fire, it would appear in the mind of the troops it was not necessary to fire.  What is your comment?

MR GONYA: Yes, that is true.  The command that was issued, it actually confused the soldiers because the crowd was approaching.  It was very difficult to shoot in that situation because at least there were steps that were supposed to be taken before like administering tear gas and then you wait.  If there is resistance, then something else would be done, that is why the soldiers were commanded for the first time and the second time that they resisted.

MR SIBANYONI: You were also one of the troops who didn't respond to the order and what is the reason?  Why didn't you respond to the order for the first time?

MR GONYA: I was also with the same idea.

MR SIBANYONI: You also felt that it was not necessary to use live ammunition together with the other troop members?

MR GONYA: Yes, that is correct.  It was not necessary initially to use live ammunition.  Some of the things were supposed to be used to try and prevent the crowd from going further and then you wait for the response of the crowd and then something else would be done.

MR SIBANYONI: Then you said for the third time, Col Mkosana was insisting and it is only then that you started shooting.  If he didn't insist or shout at the troops, in other words, there would have not been any shooting.

MR GONYA: If he never mentioned that for the first time, that couldn't have happened, but we were going to be first to do something because the crowd was approaching and it was coming closer.   When he mentioned it for the first time, the crowd was just in front of us, therefore in that situation it's quite impossible to use minimum force.

MR SIBANYONI: Was the stadium not cordoned with barbed wire to prevent the crowd from coming to your direction?

MR GONYA: No, there was no barbed wire. from Telkom Exchange to the stadium, the only fence was between the Republic of South Africa and the Republic of Ciskei.  When the crowd was approaching from King William's town towards the hospital, the fence was removed.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you repeat yourself?

MR GONYA: There was no fence there, the only fence was at the borders of South Africa and Ciskei.  The fence that was there was removed because the people were going to get into the stadium, but around the stadium itself, there was no fencing.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

ADV SANDI: Can I just come in quickly?  I just missed out one thing.  What did you think would have been the consequence of you not carrying out the order from Mkosana?

MR GONYA: Please repeat your question Sir.

ADV SANDI: What did you think would happen if you did not do at all what Col Mkosana was asking you to do?

MR GONYA: If I did not do that, maybe even today I would not be alive.

ADV SANDI: Can you explain yourself?  What do you mean when you say you would not have been alive?

MR GONYA: Come again.

ADV SANDI: What exactly would have happened to you?  If you did not do what Mr Mkosana said you must do, what would have happened to you?

MR GONYA: We wouldn't escape there because of the crowd.

ADV SANDI: You wouldn't escape from whom?

MR GONYA: We wouldn't escape the crowd.

ADV SANDI: Let me leave you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, just two aspects Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The first one is; if you did not carry out the order of your commander as a soldier, what would have happened to you?

MR GONYA: That would mean that I would be disobeying the commander.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And what would be the consequence of that?

MR GONYA: A person who is disobedient is normally taken.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So where are you taken to?  What is the end result of not obeying an order from your commander?

MR GONYA: If you are disobedient, you are normally taken to the senior officers to a forum whereby you will be dealt with by the senior officers and they make a decision upon that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, it was said to you that it is strange by my learned friend, when he was cross-examining you, that you were in a position to hear the conversation between Mkosana and van der Bank and you could not hear the conversation between Mkosana and the other commander whose soldier was injured.  Were these situations the same situation, that is, was it calm at all times before he talked to van der Bank and asked if he can shoot and after and at the time when the soldier was shot at, was it the same situation.

MR GONYA: Sometimes it would be calm but because of the noise of the two helicopters that were around, one wouldn't hear properly, but if they go and land and go to the Parliament yard, there would be calmness, it would be quiet and it was possible for me to hear what he was saying.

MR NOMPOZOLO: All I'm asking is, when the crowd was approaching and Mr Mkosana spoke to Mr van der Bank, at that time, was the situation the same with the situation at the time of the shooting?

MR GONYA: No, the situation was not the same.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, there is one aspect I did not raise.  With the permission of the Commission, may I raise it?  I don't think it affects the evidence as such?

CHAIRPERSON: No, very well, go ahead and we'll see if anybody else wants to deal with it.  We can see.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  What is your highest standard passed at school?

MR GONYA: Up to standard 10.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Yes, Mr Gonya thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for ...?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, that is the case for ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Mr Smith, are you tendering any evidence?

MR SMITH: No.  No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Koopedi, are you tendering any evidence?

MR KOOPEDI: The same with me.  No evidence tendered Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No evidence tendered Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Mr Du Plessis, have you got any submissions on the merits of your client's application?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can you just press those gadgets on?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the Commission, in my address to the Commission, the Commission is well-known with the facts of this matter, the application before the Commission and therefore because of a time restraint, I'm going to limit my address to the Commission to the actual application as such and the Act.
	In terms of Section 20 of the Act, Mr Chairman, I refer to the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act 34 of 1995.  Section 20:
"Dealing with the granting of amnesty, if the Committee, after consideration of an application  for amnesty is satisfied that: (a) the applicant's application complies with the requirements of the Act ..."
Now let me stand still there for a minute.  It's my humble submission, Mr Chairman, that this application indeed complies with the requirements of the Act

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you don't need to worry about that, Mr Smith.