Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, the armoured vehicle would arrive at the border post between Lady Grey and Sterkspruit and it would wait then for us to arrive and we knew that they'd be there at half past seven, and that was basically the meeting time and the armoured vehicle was waiting and we used to proceed with the armoured vehicle.
	Then I may as well add that basically we hired this vehicle, but everybody got to know about it and there would sometimes be a convoy of 20 to 30, 40 vehicles behind the armoured car.  The same procedure would happen in the evenings, we would meet at a certain point, I can't remember the time, maybe 6 o'clock, and this vehicle would escort us back to the border post at Lady Grey.

ADV PRIOR: If I can just clarify that.  It was a pretty good explanation, but the people who worked in Sterkspruit would then make use of this armoured or protected convoy, is that correct?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And that's the way they got out of Sterkspruit as well.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: How long did this situation go on for?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: It's difficult for me to remember, but I should imagine for about three months.

ADV PRIOR: And after that time, which was from November onwards in 1993, did any further attacks along that stretch of road occur?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.

ADV PRIOR: Did it then appear to you that the initiative to employ security as you did had had the desired effect?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, it did.

ADV PRIOR: Did certain members of the community not make use of that facility?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Before I proceed with that line, was this arrangement only for white business or white people working in the area?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.  You know if we talk about an arrangement we must understand that my company hired this security company to protect our people, other members of the community made use of riding in that convoy, which I had no objection to because the objective was to protect my own people.
	Reps that were coming into the area used to wait.  They got to know that the armoured vehicle would be waiting and they used to wait.  A lot of black people that live in Lady Grey used to join that convoy as well.  In the beginning it was quite a large convoy and as the months went by and nothing happened, nothing happened, the convoy started to get smaller and smaller.

ADV PRIOR: And then you stopped it altogether?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: We stopped the convey, but we didn't stop the security, no.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't quite understand that.  Did you continue after three months to employ the security vehicle?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, we - I can't remember if it's three months or four months or five months, so you know it can be a period of three months where we used the armoured car.
	When it looked like there was no more threat, we discontinued the armoured car but we still used security people to be in the area.  And to this day we still have security people, not on as large a scale but we do have security people.

ADV PRIOR: Now are you able to inform us whether the local farmers, for example Mr Vorster and Mr Myburgh, did they join in the initiative or can't you say?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, Mr Myburgh and Mr Vorster did not have business interests in Sterkspruit, so they did not join in.

ADV PRIOR: Did Mr Hatting participate in this initiative?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Sorry, I'm just not with you, initiative?

ADV PRIOR: Well the security arrangements?

CHAIRPERSON: He said his firm employed them as I understood it.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: I'm asking whether he participated.

CHAIRPERSON: ... anybody else, it was just you.  You employed the security people, other people tagged on.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That is so, we paid the bill for the security on our own.

ADV PRIOR: Well let me put it this way, did he make use of that security arrangement, moving in and out of Sterkspruit? - according to your knowledge.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That is difficult to answer because Mr Hatting doesn't run the business himself, he had management that was running the businesses and I don't remember that he ever ran any one of those stores.  So it's difficult for me to say that yes, he joined the convoy or he didn't join the convoy.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Prior.
	The people who were running the businesses for Mr Hatting, did they join this convoy, did they benefit from this?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Sorry, I didn't hear nicely.

ADV SANDI: You say Mr Hatting was not personally running his businesses, he had management, some people running the businesses, did these people form part of the convoy?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: To my knowledge, no, but I don't think any of them lived in Lady Grey, they were local and it was not necessary for them to join the convoy.

ADV PRIOR: Now, subsequent to the attack that we've heard about, the attack on Brummer, Schroeder and Mr Tsemane, did you ever receive any threat or get information concerning your safety?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, as I've explained it's a very small area and everybody knows each other.  On numerous occasions I was approached by local black people to say, Charlie there's a threat out on you, you and your family must take precautions.

ADV PRIOR: Did you take this information seriously?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, of course.

ADV PRIOR: I understand that your brother, Duncan Mather is also resident in the Sterkspruit area, is that correct?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, he lives in Sterkspruit.

ADV PRIOR: Was there any threat against him?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I can't remember if there was a threat against him, but basically the threat, or as we were told, yes I would say there was a threat against him as well.

ADV PRIOR: Did you do anything about these threats, did you confront anyone or refer the matter anywhere?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well no, we didn't refer, we just employed security and let it be known that we would retaliate to whatever threat was carried out.

ADV PRIOR: Ms Tsemane made a specific allegation when she put questions to the applicants, Dolo and, Mr Dolo in particular and Mr Makuala, that these attacks were not politically motivated but were motivated by business interests, in other words by certain business interests against other business interest in the Sterkspruit area, in other words against competition.  And when one looks at the nature of the attacks in that area throughout that period of 1992, it certainly appears that the persons who were attacked were all attacked in the morning, they were predominantly white people working for business in Sterkspruit and they seemed to be attacked in more-or-less the same manner, by the same or similar groups within the APLA movement.  Are you able to comment at all on that allegation or to give the Committee your perception or your view on that?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well I would support that.  It was also possibly basic common knowledge amongst all the local people.  As I've explain before, it's a small district and everybody knows each other.  Yes, it was common opinion, not only myself or Ms Tsemane, but it was a common consensus that that is what was happening.

ADV PRIOR: Were you aware of any other persons unconnected to Sterkspruit that were targeted and/or attacked during that period?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.

ADV PRIOR: You indicated that reps, that's sales representatives, would be moving in and out of the area, would that be on a regular basis?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well it's a good trading area and you probably have at least five or six reps coming in daily.

ADV PRIOR: From companies such as, can you maybe just give us an idea?