Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Well, in his evidence, I actually arrested him in Pongola because we actually received information because the police couldn't do anything.  I went undercover in Pongola and I pretended as if I was coming from Mr Sydney Mufamadi's office and at that time when I actually arrested Mdu close to about two hundred (200) soldiers in that court in Pongola because he went to Pongola because one of the members, as we know now, of the hit squad who were operating in Piet Retief, shot an ANC member in Pongola.  So, he went to court in Pongola to see his friend who was arrested in Pongola.  Now, the allegation that these people - maybe let me finish the incident.  I will go to the allegations and I will say why I'm saying it's allegations.  When Mandla Magudulela and Mphelele Malinga were killed by Mdu Msibi, again it was just chaos.  Politically we tried having meetings with the police, with everybody to say but can't anything be done, people are being killed and I must be honest with you, nothing was done.  Then we came to a stage where we called the President of the ANC to come to Piet Retief, Dr Nelson Mandela.  I think he came just a day before, it was on the fourth (4th) of September.  The day before he came another member of the community, Jusiah Thabede was shot through the window of his house, and as we understand, they were saying they wanted Mr Mandela to walk on top of his blood of his people.  Luckily Mr Thabede was not killed.  He sustained serious injuries.  He went to stay in a hospital in Johannesburg for about three weeks.  Now, this is Piet Retief.  Late in 1984 we then politically tried to manoeuvre, to find out because we knew that some people knew about what was going on and we actually, one lady who was deployed who fell in love with one of the killers, that when we first ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was she deployed or did she fall in love?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: I think we actually deployed her because Mr Msibi was having a business and we understood from the information that we were receiving that these killers were actually floating his bar.

MS BOSMAN: You mentioned 1984.  Is it 1984 or '94?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: 1994.

MS BOSMAN: '94.

MR BLACK: Mr Gamede, when you referred to Mr Msibi as you do, who is this Mr Msibi that you're always referring to?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: I've indicated in my evidence that, well, it seemed from the Nationalist Party side and the security establishment, that the Mayor who took over in 1989 out of the local elections was not doing enough, maybe from taking instruction.  Then we understand from information that we received that he was deployed strategically to go in a first trip I think in his life to Germany.  When he came back from Germany he was then overthrown by Mr Msibi, who was then the Mayor of ... (indistinct)

MR BLACK: Now, sir, we take it then in future whenever you are referring to Mr Msibi you're referring to the then Mayor who took over.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR BLACK: Do you know what political affiliation he had?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: What we understood, and all of us understood in the township was that he was a member of the IFP.  Then Khezwa was arrested by us.  We handed him over to, obviously there was a lot of thing that happened, we took statements and what-what.  He then confessed and he told us what he was involved in and what is a long story.  I don't want to delay this Commission.

MR BLACK: Don't, but who is Mr Khezwa?  What is he?  Who is he?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Mr Khezwa, he alleged that he was the bodyguard of Mr Msibi.  He was actually recruited by Mr Mkhwanazi who was one of the security police and that evidence was actually led in court and that evidence I think is with the Truth Commission, because he actually applied for amnesty.  I think why he failed I believe is because he said he was paid money to do whatever he was doing in Piet Retief.  So, that information I think lies with the Truth Commission.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, Mr Khezwa has already applied for amnesty at Nelspruit during the course of early last year.  I understand that his application was not successful.  A great deal of this evidence came out, his involvement with Mr Msibi.  So, I'm just saying that to speed things up a bit.  Okay.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Okay.  But before maybe if I can go back a slight, before we actually knew that Khezwa was involved, some of the members of the community wanted to shoot him in a broad daylight.  Then we went to the police station to report, because he was seen in a police car with Mkhwanazi, which then Mkhwanazi denied.  He said no, he was never involved with Khezwa.  Then there were police from Middelburg because we took it politically.  Then there was a parade which was done and that was not successful until he then confers that he was involved with this incident.  Then we then had another meeting with our, the now Premier of Mpumalanga, Mr Poswa where there was a random shooting, where about four people were killed in the street.  We were coming from a meeting from Middelburg to discuss these killings that were going on in Piet Retief.  Just four days after that four people were killed.  Then this Platos Khezwa then confers that he was the one actually who was given instruction by Mr Msibi, the Mayor, to actually shoot and I must say that this evidence was led in court, but I must be honest with you, there was no court case.  We don't know what happened as I'm sitting here.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, we don't need to hear any of the background beyond the times of the incidents applied for.

MR BLACK: Yes.  So, just to sum things up, one of the applicants, let's put it that way, Mr Gamede, it's not that we don't want to know, the community, and I can understand your need to express the feelings of the community of Piet Retief, but we don't, as indicated by the Committee, we don't really need to know what happened in 1994, and I understand that an attempt was made on your life as well.  What is of concern to me is that I'm representing one of the applicants, Mr Gushu, and one of the incidents in respect of which he is seeking amnesty is the shooting of Mr Themba Mlangeni and shooting at Alpheus Msibi.  He alleges that Mr Msibi was the then Mayor of Piet Retief and it was perceived that he was an active member of the IFP.  I'll read what Mr Gushu says
"And that he openly enjoyed the members' support of the
South African Police and security forces in carrying out
attacks on ANC members."
Do you go along with that allegation so far?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, I would say I fully support that.

MR BLACK: Ja.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Because the police will make braais in his house and, you know, it was just chaos.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Then Mr Gushu also in his preliminary summary of his statements says that
"During his period as Mayor of Piet Retief, Msibi recruited paramilitary Mkhuze, paramilitary trainees to come to Piet Retief."
Is that so?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, since we understood from the community was that some of these people were actually involved with the attacks in Ermelo.  Sometimes they would have hidden in Piet Retief.  This is the allegation that we usually heard.

MR BLACK: And then it's also alleged that they were really trying to carrying out the policies as members of the IFP.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR BLACK: As paramilitaries.  And then ANC and COSATU people, South African Communist Party it should be, not SAP and organisations aligned to the ANC were being killed in large numbers.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, as I've indicated.

MR BLACK: And he mentions the killing of the ANC youth leader who he claims was a local MK commando.

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR BLACK: Is that correct?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.