Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: They ...(indistinct) me as whether they were armed with knives and ...(indistinct)

MR JOHNSON: What did you think they were going to do to you?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I thought they were people who were instructed to come and kill me, or to kidnap me.

MR JOHNSON: Why did you think that?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I saw the way they were approaching.

MR JOHNSON: Now at that stage when you shot ... (inter-vention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry.  Sorry about that, can I just come in for a moment?  How were they approaching you?  In what manner were they approaching you which made you suspicious?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: They were running.

ADV SANDI: You said these were about - how many people, 14, 15, did I follow you correctly?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Approximately 15, 14 to 15 people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Johnson I just want to have clarity on this.  Are you applying for amnesty in regard to this incident?

MR JOHNSON: Chairperson, the amnesty application is indeed for this incident as well because he does not know if he at any stage, he injured anybody.

JUDGE DE JAGER: At this stage, I don't want to prejudge the issue, but it seems as though he's telling us now that he acted in self-defence.  He doesn't know whether he wounded anybody.  Is he admitting that he committed an offence here, because if he doesn't admit that he committed an offence, we can't give him amnesty.

MR JOHNSON: Indeed, Chairperson, but this forms part of his affidavit which he gave to the Amnesty Committee in the first instance and that would form part of certainly a full disclosure, what he should be making to the Committee.  If the Committee does not wish to hear this evidence, I can skip that part and go indeed to the ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, I don't know whether he's asking for amnesty for assault on people or attempted murder on people, or whether he's saying:  "well, I've done nothing wrong, I acted to protect myself."  If he's saying:  "I've only acted to protect myself", he could say that and we could leave it because then it's irrelevant as far as amnesty is concerned.  If he says:  "Well I exceeded the bounds, I'm asking for amnesty", then it's another matter.

MR JOHNSON: I understand, Chairperson, and I will take it up with the applicant then.

ADV SANDI: You know, also in the same vein, I'm not sure if one can say there was any political motive on the part of these potential attackers on the applicant, it may have been a group of robbers who saw a potential victim and were about to attack him, we don't know.

MR JOHNSON: I understand.

JUDGE DE JAGER: On the other hand whether he had a political motive or whether he only wanted to protect himself, because if there was no political motive apart from whether it's an offence, it's irrelevant as far as amnesty is concerned.

MR JOHNSON: Indeed Chairperson.  Mr Thejane, first of all I want to clarify one specific aspect.  At that stage you said you were in possession of a Makarov pistol.  This Makarov pistol, where did you get it?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It was issued to me from the Security Branch Office by Sgt Barnard.

MR JOHNSON: Concerning this specific incident further, did you indeed then act in self-defence or is it something that you wish to apply for amnesty?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I don't know what happened after my shooting because I just returned to fetch the cartridges at night and early in the morning, so therefore it shows that no person was injured or killed.

MR JOHNSON: I'm proceeding then to the further incident.  At some stage you were located or relocated to a farm outside Bloemfontein.  Can you remember in which year it was that you were located there?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, I remember.

MR JOHNSON: In which year was it?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Somewhere between 1990 and 1991.

MR JOHNSON: Concerning this specific farm, what was this farm used for?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We used that farm as our office base.

MR JOHNSON: During your connection, or during your period which you were one of the askaris, at some stage there would have been some tortures involving certain people, is that correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember when this would have been?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: During that period when I arrived from 1990, 1991 to Sgt Barnard.

MR JOHNSON: At some stage you were involved in the torture of one person by the name of Abel Choane, is that correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Can you tell the, or inform the Committee who is Abel Choane?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: ;   I learned that Abel Choane was one of those who were working at a particular unit and white members were not treating him well, then he ran away.

MR JOHNSON: Is it correct that he was indeed - also formed part of Askari at that stage?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Could you inform the Committee how did it happen that Abel Choane was captured in the first instance?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: The information came when we were in Ficksburg, when we were handling APLA members.  We received information around that Abel Choane is around Bloemfontein and Botshabelo.  We left Ficksburg and came to Botshabelo searching for him.

MR JOHNSON: What happened then?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: There was a certain member called Jack Baloi who left with an informer with Toyota Corolla, blue Toyota Corolla, to introduce Jack Baloi to that informer's uncle, that Jack is his uncle.  I did not know the content of that information.  Jack Baloi went with that particular informer and then we didn't receive further information but we followed that information day and night up to a point where, that is to say they had a photo album about people who we were supposed to identify.  We went to a particular teacher in Botshabelo together with Jack Baloi.  They went to a tavern which was called Peter's Tavern, it was a Friday night.  That informant introduced Jack to other people who were with him.  It happened that there was somebody who was sought for by Bloemfontein people,  Then Jack went outside to look for the photo and then he came to a kombi which was tinted.  I, Victor Gadi and Patrick Ngamela were sent to identify that particular person in the tavern.  We were given money to buy alcohol.  We drank about two to three bottles.  We produced the firearms and instructed all the people to lie down in the tavern, that's Peter's tavern, that is where we arrested Abel Choane's brother, who was known as Abel Choane, I don't remember his name but that person is from Welkom.  Abel Choane was not present there.  We took them and put them in that kombi which was covered with curtains.

MR JOHNSON: Is that now Mr Abel Choane's brother which was arrested?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Where did you go to with them?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We brought them to  Fountain building at 5th floor.

MR JOHNSON: Is that here in Bloemfontein?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson, that is the Security Branch offices.

MR JOHNSON: Was he brought here?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We took him because so that we will torture him so that he will tell us the whereabouts of Abel Choane because he was sought by Barnard and Company.

MR JOHNSON: At the stage when he was then interrogated, were you present during this interrogation?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, I was present Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Were you also then involved in, or first of all this brother of Abel Choane, was he tortured as well?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson, he was tortured and I was present.

MR JOHNSON: In what way and how was he tortured?