Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: I would want to do as much as I can because I am concerned and I think I mean that it would be naive to pretend that it may not emanate from your client, but it is clear that there is a miasma that is covering some of the people who either have come before here or might be, and I take your point entirely and I think I mean that I do not want any - that is why when I have said I have given you 15 minutes, I want to make it absolutely certain that you are not labouring under any disadvantage, because I do not want to have your client being placed under any sort of cloud.  But you and I are aware, as most other people are aware, that there is a sense in which people are being intimidated, or they claim to be, and we will seek to establish that and I hope I mean we can in fact be able to get this Mr Siakamela.  And perhaps you will be able to assist us.  I would be very, very grateful for us to be put in touch with him.
 All we were saying is that you might be interested to have heard that this is the experience, the alleged experience, and we were hoping I mean that in some way or other it will be possible for an explanation to come about.  There already has been an explanation that your client has not contacted any witnesses or potential witnesses to this hearing. And therefore the second point that I was going to have made which is that we should have an undertaking that there would not be any contacting or interfering with any such witnesses.  But the fact that you are saying she hasn't is probably sufficient.

MR SEMENYA: Well Chairperson we can even say there will not be contact with any other potential witness.  And I must indicate maybe in this respect there is a Madonsela who we have discussed with Mr Vally about, he is not on the list of witnesses, we have been in consultation with him to try and understand certain things, but the undertaking is made.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Hanif.

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop I have nothing further to add.

MR UNTERHALTER: Chairperson might I, through you, ask ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You will say who you are.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes David Unterhalter on behalf of the Sono family.  Through you Mr Chairman do we also have the undertaking that my learned friend, Mr Semenya's client, will not contact Oupa Siakamela either?

CHAIRPERSON: At the moment is he ...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson this, with respect, I have never, even my learned colleague, will never obtain an interdict on a person who has not been complaining of being intimidated or threatened or anything, but I couldn't expect anything more absurd with respect.

MR UNTERHALTER: There is no absurdity, there is a very serious allegation of intimidation here and the means by which that is being carried out is through Oupa Siakamela and I would have thought it would be easy to give the undertaking, the fact that it proves difficult rather gives the lie to the assurance that is offered.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson my learned colleague cannot say it offers a lie to the undertaking that I have made because that must constitute a professional assault on my integrity.

CHAIRPERSON: No I am sorry I - can I - I would hope I mean that we have up to now been fairly decent with each other and I would hope that we were not going to use language that - because Mr Semenya has given this Commission an undertaking and I would believe that it didn't - as far as I am aware, Oupa is not on our list of potential witnesses and therefore his undertaking stands, unless there was one reason or another why Mr Siakamela, Oupa Siakamela should be placed on the list of witnesses.

MR UNTERHALTER: It's simply an undertaking not to use anyone for the purpose of seeking to prevent anyone coming here to give testimony whether it's directly or indirectly.  That's the only undertaking.  And I should just indicate to my learned friend Mr Semenya, I offered no besmirchment of his professional standing, it's simply the nature of the undertakings that he is in a position to give or not to give.  I would just ask for the undertaking which is that his client would not directly or indirectly by means of intermediaries seek to prevent Mr Siakamela or indeed anyone else from testifying here.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask I mean whether that is an undertaking you are ...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: That's an undertaking we are prepared to make Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  But I would still have thought, I mean part of the language was, maybe unparliamentary.

MR UNTERHALTER: I withdraw it unreservedly  if it was so understood.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Are you feeling better Mr Semenya?  (General laughter)  Thank you, yes you are.  Thank you gentlemen, please stand down.
 We now call, I don't know what their ranks are.

MR VALLY: Archbishop it's Mr Moodley, Mr Dempsey and Mr Hesslinga.  I think they are various superintendents of various....

CHAIRPERSON: Is it alright to call them Mr?

MR VALLY: I would think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you will tell us.

MR VALLY: Could I please read into the record the affidavit submitted to us by Mr Bridgeland before we start with these witnesses?

CHAIRPERSON: You did inform....

MR VALLY: Yes I have given Mr Semenya a copy and I have also given Mr Joseph a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do so.

MR CILLIER: Chairperson may I just indicate at this stage, the surname is Cillier ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who is speaking?

MR VALLY: Mr Cillier we haven't come to your clients yet.

MR CILLIER: Okay.  I just wanted to say I am representing the witnesses but I will ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask you later, thank you.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson I want to read into the record a response from Mr Bridgeland.  I will read it as it's been presented to us.
"Affidavit concerning Vic McPherson.
 I, the undersigned Frederick William Ernest Bridgeland of 59 Broughton Street, Edinburgh Scotland, until recently assistant editor of the Scotsman of Edinburgh, Scotland's national newspaper, do hereby make oath and state that:
1. The facts herein contained are personally known to me and I verily know them to be true and correct.
 2. Until Wednesday of last week, the 26th of November 1997 in the JISS Hall where TRC hearings into the activities of the Mandela United Football Club are being held I had never met nor heard of the senior superintendent John Louis McPherson of the South African Police Service.
 3. McPherson said that I had been placed by him in the category of "friendly journalists" and he had had three or four meetings with me.  A TRC official pointed him out to me last Wednesday.  I walked up to him in front of TRC officials and offered my hand but he did not know who I was.  I then told him my name and said I had never seen him before.  He conceded that but said he thought he had spoken to me by phone.  I said I could recall no such conversations and he said he was unable to give me either dates or subjects discussed.  He said anyway he had withdrawn his original statement because the comments about me were false.
 4. Senior Superintendent McPherson publicly apologised to me in front of journalists.  I accepted his apology.
 5. However, in the context of the present hearings and in the context of the frequent references to my book, Katiza's Journey, the smear, although withdrawn, is a source of real distress to me.  My belief is that the smear was deliberate and results from strong attacks made against the security police in Katiza's Journey in which several people protest about the bizarre and apparently inexplicable behaviour of senior police offices connected with investigations into murders and human rights abuses linked allegedly to the Mandela United Football Club.
 Signed by - Mr Fred Bridgeland".
Thank you Archbishop.