Human Rights Violation Hearings — Nelspruit — 1996-09-05

CHAIRPERSON: Lewin?  Just before we come to an end of the story, can I ask this sergeant you mentioned, how was he perceived, because we have heard more especially from those people who were taking statements, and there were certain police officers who were known to be not good police, because they were actually not on good terms with the youth. Now according to you, I would like to know.  Was he in the good books of the comrades or how did you perceive Mangesi?

MR NGOLBENI: As far as I am concerned, the police during thsoe days, they did not have actually a good human relationship with the people. I am not sure what was wrong, but there was no good contact or good human relationships.
NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA
21 MR NGOLBENI
Even when you meet him, you greet him, even if you know him, but there wasn't a good human relationship. It was that during that time. More than that, nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can I further ask you a question about particularly Sgt Mangezi. Let's forget about the rest of the police, particularly Mangezi.

MR NGOLBENI: Mangezi was not a very bad person. If you meet him he could joke, he could laugh, he could more especially while he was on duty.  You could not clearly distinguish whether he was a good person or a bad person.  So we regarded him the way he acted in this fashion. He wanted to make people of Naas to see him as a very good person, and yet when he is together with his colleagues he is not a good person.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Ngolbeni, do you think that Sgt Mangezi might have thought that the group of young comrades were going to attack his house and so he then panicked and he shot at them. Do you think that that might have happened?

MR NGOLBENI: Let me put it this way.  If you from from the school at (indistinct), going to Mangezi's house, he actually Mangezi was regarded as CID.  There are other CIDs who alongside the very same street, before you reach Mangezi's home, but they went through those houses and there was nothing wrong.  When they approached Mangezi's house, something happened.  Now that is the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I will again ask Mr Malan to ask you questions.

MR MALAN: I jsut want to ask Nonsa.    In your statement you say that both Mangezi and Nkosa are now dead.  You say the perpetrators are now dead.  Does that include also - you say both?  Those are only Nkosa and Mangezi or is the white
NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA
22 MS MABUZA
policeman also dead?  Secondly, do you know when they died and how they died?

MS MABUZA: What I know, I was in hospital. I was in hospital and I was told that Mangezi is dead. How he died I don't know.  The other police also he ...  (End of tape, side 2).

CHAIRPERSON: ... that we should remain here for this hearing for almost four days, listening from different stories of some incidents that took place between - incidents that happened from 1966 to 1993.  Now the hearings here that took place, I would say, it is almost similar to any other hearing, to try and find out the truth. We heard from the witnesses the way they were tortured in different ways. We heard from the witnesses giving statements, that they have been troubled, some were tortured, some were troubled by the SADF and some were actually, the comrades, some were actually under the UDF.  The organisation now which has been the ANC.  We also learnt quite a lot of things, about some of the things that were actually done by the group known as Khabasa.  Some told us that they were actually - had problems while they were in camps of the African National Congress.  Now we are taking all what we have gathered here to the investigating unit, and we hope that unit is going to assist us to clarify some of the issues which were not clarified.
 As a Commission we want to invite all the people from the Mpumulanga Province, that the process which we have started, should give you courage, that people should come forward and give in statements.  Before we can come to a region, we believe that we first have to check how many statements have been presented. If there are no statements 
NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA
23 MR NGOLBENI
we cannot simply say we are going to Leandra or we are going to Barberton.  We are going there determined by the statements which have already been forwarded.  We think you are going to hand in hand with the committee.  The statements that are going to be received will determine where the hearings will be.
 This Commission also have amnesty hearings. We also invite, more especially people from the Mpumulanga Province, those who know very well that actually in a way they are affected in violating other people's rights, they should come forward.  They must fill out those forms, they must come forward, and say what they have done in the past.
 I think you will realise that there are lots and lots of people who are always saying, they say here I will only get peace the time when I am going to hear from someone who is asking forgiveness. I still call upon you to work hand in hand with the amnesty people. I want to emphasise. There is also a dead-line date, according to the Act. That date is a cut-off date for those people who would like to appear before the amnesty committee.  It is the 14th of December 1996.
 If you don't come forward before this period, well, it would be hard luck for him or her.  Because he may have to appear before a court of law.  Yet, these hearings were meant actually that a person should also be in a position to ask for amnesty. The whole aim here is to reconcile.  
 After this cut-off date of the 14th, you may find yourself in trouble or appear before a court of law.
 The other thing, lastly, which I would like to mention here, we invite all the people, more especially who are members of the NGO and maybe those who are the officials in 
23 MR NGOLBENI
24
the education field, to assist more especially those people who are making statements, and help them and assist them in any way.  Things which cannot come from the Commission but sort of assist them in a way, what can be done before answers can be obtained from the Commission.
 Something that can also sort of assist, more especially those are leaders of the community, people should realise something or become aware of something that they can do, than just sitting and waiting for the results of the Commission.
 We are really calling upon you to assist in that regard.  There are many things that can be done.  As a Commission we want to thank you all.  We will request you that Rev Ntembu will come forward. He will have a way to do it, maybe by way of prayer.  We thank you.

REV: (NOT INTERPRETED INTO ENGLISH)
NELSPRUIT HEARING TRC/MPUMULANGA