Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes definitely, specific proposals were put forward to them, I said that yesterday or the day before yesterday, I said that every year a covert plan was formulated.  One calls it the combat plan for the following year and in that covert plan was approved by the chief of the army and documentation was kept at Special Forces level after it was approved and that was the authorisation for action the next year and during ad hoc times it was discussed in the presence of Gen Geldenhuys and that was at least twice a year that there were meetings where he was present and where our plans would be submitted to them, to him where we would show him the financial plan and the approval thereof and so forth.

MS COLERIDGE: Then I just want to refer you to one other aspect and that was the Matthysen Bus Company.  You said in your Section 29 that funds were channelled through that company, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't know whether that is from my statement or from someone else's but the other day I said that yes it was so but it was not a - once again I think to an extent it was done from ignorance or out of ignorance, we gave instructions to region 6 that they should find civil careers for themselves and when I heard they went out on their own without following normal procedures they established themselves at Matthysen but that was acceptable but the type of procedure that they followed was to say that they were doing investigations or they protected the transport of Matthysen, that is the cover that they used and finances was then handled by this means but because the whole region was connected to each other, I told them to get their own careers.

CHAIRPERSON: So was Matthys basically owned by the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not at all, it had nothing to do with us.  I think it was a friendly basis thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Just go in there and get jobs and they had a boss within Matthys who didn't know that they had anything to do with the CCB and they just got a normal 8 to 5 type job?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think that at personal level there might have been a connection between Mr Staal Burger and the owner of the company and maybe they agreed that monies would be paid in but they did not receive a salary there and they would have handled security for the company.  I think that is how I found it there at that stage but it then changed.

MS COLERIDGE: So you sent their salaries and all other monies due to them, you sent it through that company, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That you would have to ask the co-ordinator.  Actually the money was physically given to the co-ordinator and then he gave it to the region.  If they handled it for tax purposes through the company I cannot confirm any of that, I do know that it says so in the statements.

MS COLERIDGE: Yes, you say it in bundle C.  Section 29, Chairperson, page 134, he does state that and that is you Mr Verster.  Was that they received their salaries or payments from us and to make it look real in your audit that they channelled the money through that company and that's referring to the Matthysen money?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: But it would go to the co-ordinator and then physically it would go to the region and they may have taken it and dealt with it in that manner.

MS COLERIDGE: So would you say...(intervention)

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I beg your pardon, I would just like to confirm, the co-ordinator could not go to Matthys Bus Company because he was not directly connected to them, it had to be handled through the region.

MS COLERIDGE: It was probably given to Mr Burger who was a  friend of Mr Matthysen and who were in the army together as well, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that is correct, from Christo Britz, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: So it's possible that this Mr Matthysen was quite aware of the fact that they were receiving monies from the SADF, do you think that's possible?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That could be, could be so

MR LAX: Can I just interpose?  Can you think of any way in which Matthysen wouldn't know where the money was coming from?  It wasn't paid to his company in cash?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, the guidelines for planning from our side was different and sometimes it appears that although it was not water tight, the people could not admit that they're working for the State, they could have lost their jobs so they could have said this money comes from a group of businessmen who wants you to assist in stabilising the country but you may not tell who these businessmen were but it may be on a personal level but that would have been against procedures.  Staal Burger or anyone could not have said that "I work for Special Forces", if he did that he was outside policy.

MR LAX: Absolutely, that would have been my follow up question in the sense that this was a serious compromise of your security process?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Just in relation to the end of the process, the end of the CCB, you said that senior officials approached you and informed you that you should isolate yourselves from the members of the CCB and that you should distance yourself clinically.  Can you tell us who those people were?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: The specific persons who will certainly deny this today was Gen Witkop Badenhorst because he made very many unreliable sounds and what was really said was that a clinical cut has to be made in the CCB, Region 6 has to be clinically removed and when we removed Region 6 we may continue with the work and after I was fired the structure continued on its own in some or other manner and I was not prepared to do that and it was also a problem because contracts, we had specific contracts so what Magnus Malan told me personally and I purposefully told you this on Monday, my commission, which was given by the first president or the first State President of the country and I said I walked away from my military rank and with regard to Mr Malan, he said forget about these things, go down to Potgieter Street and forget about the contract and start working back there again and I said I was not prepared to do this because we have already distanced ourselves from the State, we had other contracts and in this manner we opposed it and this led to me losing my job and eventually there were only 23 members left who did not concede to this.

MS COLERIDGE: So they were also aware of the CCB activities, those very same people, Badenhorst etc?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes he did the investigation, even the Minister of Defence signed things that he denied, appointments in the CCB.

MS COLERIDGE: Who was the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can I just follow up, sorry?  The offer that Malan made to you, Gen Malan, was in essence a sweetener to go back to your old job?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: In terms of our financial procedures it is written that no member of the CCB may go back into the Defence Force or the Civil Service structure but what happened there is that I did presentations to Gen Malan where I told him of problems that might exist concerning certain operations that we had, where the police were involved and Gen Malan looked at me after the presentation and he said that he does not believe me, he stands with the police, those things and a lot of things were later made public and he told me that he believes the police, forget about this, go tomorrow and go present yourself and then you will get a uniform and then you continue with your work and then I said I'm not prepared to do it.

MR LAX: Was that an effort to co-opt to you?