Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

ADV DE JAGER: If it's their parental home, was it their father's home that's been bombed?

MR STANDER: That is in fact correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Might somebody tell us what the father's name is then Mr Chairman, so that we can sort out the characters in this play?

MR STANDER: I'm sorry to again confess that I don't have the name of the father, perhaps they can help us if it's of assistance to the Committee.

MR VISSER: And while my learned friend is going to find that out, perhaps he might consult to find out whether there are other brothers of the two gentlemen that are here now - unless we get confused again Mr Chairman because it seems to me I can't continue on this basis unless we know what is exactly alleged, there's no point in us wasting time and asking questions about it.

MR STANDER: Can I make a suggestion Mr Chairman, so that we can ask either one of the two brothers to come here in front of us where I did just now, so that they can testify to that effect if possible?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that this occasion they should come, they should take the oath and testify, not merely - I thought we were merely clarifying something but if we're not, do you want to call them as a witness?

MR STANDER: I intend doing so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then, can the applicant just move and go
and...[inaudible]

ZWELABANTU MZUZWANA: (sworn states)

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman?  Now, Mr Mzuzwana can you please tell us your full names?

MR Z MZUZWANA: Zwelabantu, nicknamed Citi Mzuzwana.

MR STANDER: And tell this Committee what was the name of your father.

MR MZUZWANA: Khosi Nakele Fani Mzuzwana.

MR STANDER: And your brother?

MR MZUZWANA: Matthews Zwelinjani Mzuzwana.

MR STANDER: Now Mr Mzuzwana, is it in fact true that your parental home, in other words the house of your father was bombed during the course of 1986?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, that's true.

MR STANDER: Am I also correct in saying that you don't know the people who did it because at that stage you were in jail?

MR MZUZWANA: That is true.

MR STANDER: Is it also correct that during the course of 1987, your own home was also petrol-bombed?

MR MZUZWANA: That is true.

MR STANDER: And you also didn't see the relevant people who did it?

MR MZUZWANA: That is true, I don't know the people who bombed that house.

MR STANDER: What about your vehicle?

MR MZUZWANA: My car also, it was a van - it was a Toyota Hi-Lux.  It was bombed whilst I was in prison and the car was in my house.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood the witness was being called to sort out the name problem.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I thought so but I thought also being that he is in the witness stand, we might as well lead his evidence as far as that is concerned because I'll have to call him back again and I thought it was time consuming, that is why I did it now.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I think we will confuse the record, I think we'll just complicate proceedings.

MR STANDER: As the Chairman pleases, then I've got no further questions in that regard.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?  Any questions by anybody else?

MR VISSER: Visser on record Mr Chairman, may I just try to clarify something?  How many brothers are you Sir?

MR MZUZWANA: All of us, we're three.

MR VISSER: What's the third brother's name?

MR MZUZWANA: That Myekeni Mzuzwana.

MR VISSER: Will you just spell that for us please?

MR MZUZWANA: M-y-e-k-e-n-i.

MR VISSER: Is that the only name of this brother, he doesn't have any nicknames or any other names?

MR MZUZWANA: Another one is Zachararia, he's nickname is Bomba.

MR VISSER: Yes, that may be appropriate.

ADV DE JAGER: In order to -  that there shouldn't be any further confusion, what's your house - what's the address, the one that's been bombed?

MR MZUZWANA: 9592 Booysen Street, Rocklands.

ADV DE JAGER: And your father's house?

MR MZUZWANA: 1034 Mosheshwe Street, Rocklands.

MR VISSER: Now, just for the sake of the record, to make it absolutely clear, you are not a person that was shot in the head by anybody?

CHAIRPERSON: Are we clarifying names or are we proceeding with cross-examination?  Now, we were told were we not, that Matthews was shot in the head.

MR VISSER: This is part of the identification Mr Chairman, I want to make absolutely certain that this is not the man who was shot in the head but his brother was, I'm just asking him that.
	You were not shot in the head were you?

MR MZUZWANA: No, I was not shot.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR MZUZWANA: May I go Mr Chairman?
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will now once again revert to Mr Ngo's evidence.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, things have now become clear as mud because we now know with respect, that Citi Mzuzwana is this gentleman who has just given evidence and we know that the application of Mr Ngo has been changed to the bombing of the house of Citi Mzuzwana, so that would mean this person's house which he says was bombed in 1987.
	So it seems to us Mr Chairman, on that basis I was just putting to the witness Mr Chairman, item 7 at page 147 and I think the question has been answered.  He says he didn't - he doesn't know whether Mamome conveyed the instruction which he received from Coetzee to any member of the riot squad Mr Chairman, and I don't believe that I can take the matter much further than that, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Can we now revert to re-examination?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ngo, just to clarify, you're applying for amnesty for the bombing of the house of Mr Citi Mzuzwana?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: In Booysens Street?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I didn't know the name of the street but it was somewhere in Rocklands and we went there during the night.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand from your evidence, you didn't know whose house it was.  Some considerable time after the bombing - I think you said after you'd been convicted, you were told it was Citi's house, is that the position?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, when we went there it was said it was Max Makhubalo's house.

ADV MEMANI: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Ngo, I was referring you to bundle A45, in fact we should start at 44.  I beg everybody's pardon, it should be B.

CHAIRPERSON: B44.

ADV MEMANI: Now, that is an affidavit by Hendrik Bokaba, where he says that he's read your affidavit, do you see that? - he's read your amnesty application.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I do.

ADV MEMANI: If you turn to page 45, paragraph 3.3, there he says the following, that he denies
"that myself and Constable Danny Selahla were involved in a petrol-bombing in the Mamelodi district where the applicant was present.  The applicant was never a member of the security branch, Northern Transvaal and as such, was never a trusted member of the operations of the security police, Northern Transvaal branch at the time"
	Now Mr Ngo, you yourself told us yesterday that the way in which you handled an informer depends on how much you trust the informer, is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't understand the question Sir, may you please repeat?

ADV MEMANI: You see, yesterday it was put to you that you would not have been taken - two people would not have gone to see to informers at the same time and your answer was that there was no straight jacket rule.  Whether you go to see an informer alone or with other people, depends on whether you trust that person or not - on how much you trust the person, sometimes you could see a group of five people because that's in the nature of things - you have to see them because they are a gangster.
	Now what I want us to deal with is, how you would treat an informer if you did not trust the informer, would you let that informer know about members of the security force that worked with you?