Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody, I must apologise for the late start.  When we adjourned yesterday, Mr Visser was questioning Mr Mbane, and we'll take off from there.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Thank you, and good morning, Chairperson.  If I may continue then.  
	Mr Mbane,  - well perhaps before I continue with that Chairperson, we have cause to have placed before you, an extract from the police docket, which we believe might be relevant to you.  I don't know whether you are one of those lawyers, Chairperson, who believes that "I" is not a letter of the alphabet ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know why, but I am, yes.

MR VISSER: So am I.  So this will be J, Chairperson,

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit J.

MR VISSER: Exhibit J.   Just to explain the background to this document, Chairperson, I didn't want to have that photocopied as well, but it is in the police docket, in the police diary under Section C, there is an entry which says
"During 1994 to 1995, Capt de Jongh had a discussion with one, Jimmy Mbane, who was a former member of Vlakplaas.  Notes were kept."
and it refers to B1.  Now the document before you, Exhibit J, you will see is B1, Chairperson, so this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just repeat that person's name?

MR VISSER: De Jongh, Capt de Jongh, spelt J-o-n-g-h.  And I will momentarily refer to that at the appropriate stage, Chairperson, with your leave.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and I see it's September 1997, that's the docket number, is it?  So it would have been, either during '97 or thereafter.

MR VISSER: Yes, I was going to ask - in fact yes, you're absolutely correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The docket number is 2004/9/97.

MR VISSER: '97, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's obviously not before September '97?

MR VISSER: It would be safe to accept that, Chairperson.  Thank you.
	Mr Mbane, you had dealings with Ms Kubheka, on quite a number of occasions during the six weeks that you told us about, would that be correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: How would you describe her stature?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Can you please repeat your question.

MR VISSER: How would you describe her physical appearance, as you saw her?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: She was short and she was fat.

MR VISSER: I can't hear the Interpreter.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: She was a short person and she was also fat.

MR LAX: I can't hear it either.

CHAIRPERSON: I can hear it, check your volume on the machine.  Mr Visser, could you just check your volume and see if you're got the right ...

MR VISSER: I've just done that, Chairperson.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: She was a short person and she was also fat.

MR VISSER: Did you listen to the description given by Mr Hentie Botha, of the late Ms Kubheka, when he gave evidence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Can you please repeat your question.

MR VISSER: Did you listen to the evidence of Mr Hentie Botha, when he gave evidence about how he remembered what she looked like?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: And did you agree with that evidence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: And did you see the exhibits that were placed before the Committee yesterday, Exhibits 1, 2, 3 and 4?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did you agree with the evidence of Mr du Preez and Mr Wasserman about those exhibits and whether they would fit, Ms Kubheka?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: According to what I saw, I think that those clothes were small.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you.  I just want to try to clarify in my own mind, perhaps for some of the Commissioners, I'm not sure, perhaps I'm the only one that doesn't understand this.  The people that you handed over to your seniors, please stop me if I'm wrong, the one person was Sbu, S-b-u, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: The other person was a person whose name you can't remember, but who you said was killed and his body was left at a hotel.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Who was the third person?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It is the one that we found weapons from him in the squatter camps.

MR VISSER: Was that or was that not Gipsman?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, it was not Gipsman.

MR VISSER: And apart from the one that was killed and his body left near a hotel, do you know what happened to the other two?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I don't know.

MR VISSER: Let me ask you this specifically, you don't know what happened to Sbu?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The last time I saw him it was when I handed him over to my seniors, I don't know what happened to him.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now did I hear you correctly, to say that - well, let me ask you, who of your seniors did you hand Sbu to?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was Joe from Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Joe Coetzer?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, Joe Coetzer.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Visser.
	Mr Mbane, where did you live at that time, where did you come from?  Where was your place in that period of time?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Here in Durban?

CHAIRPERSON: No, where did you live normally?  Where did you regard your home to be?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: In Britz, in eHlabili(?)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Would you have told anyone that Sbu was killed by Hentie Botha?  Would you have told anyone that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't remember.

MR VISSER: That's not the question you see, you've told this Committee, Mr Mbane, that you made a deduction that your seniors had killed Sbu, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now I'm asking you, on that evidence, would you ever have told anyone that you know that Botha killed Sbu?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I can't remember, I don't remember telling anyone.

MR VISSER: Would you have told anyone that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What I'm saying, is I can't remember.

MR VISSER: Alright, alright.  You see because on the record, at page 1720 to 1721, it was put on your behalf that Sbu was killed by Botha and others.  Particularly at page 1721, the second paragraph, Chairperson.
	Now why did you tell your attorney that?  Well, did you tell you're attorney that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, it might happen that I told him, but there are a lot of people who spoke to me concerning this case.

MR VISSER: I'm not talking about other people, I'm talking about what you told you attorney, Mr Mbane.  Did you tell your attorney that Sbu was killed by Botha and others?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It might be so.

MR VISSER: Why would you have done that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't understand your question.

MR VISSER: It's a perfectly simply question, you told this Committee that you don't know what happened to the Sbu, but you made a deduction, you inferred that he was killed by your seniors, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And I asked you whether you know whether Botha killed him, and you said no.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That was what I thought, I thought that they were killed by, he was killed by Botha and the people he was working with.

MR VISSER: Oh, now you heard that.  From whom did you hear that?

MR LAX: Thought.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I thought.

MR VISSER: I didn't hear you, I'm sorry.  Alright, that's what you thought, you thought it was Botha and others who killed him, is that what you're saying?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you think Taylor was one of those who killed Sbu?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Let me explain this.  Taylor would come, he would not be there every day, he would come and leave.  The person who would always be there would be Botha.  So Taylor would come on certain days and sometimes he would not be there.

MR VISSER: Alright, that's very interesting, now answer the question.  Did you think that Taylor was one of the persons who killed Sbu?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know about that.

MR VISSER: I see.  Now can I refer you to Exhibit J ...(intervention)