Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

MR WILLS: So Mr Hlongwane, please just answer my questions.  I know you've given evidence to this Committee before about the relationships that you had with Mr Khumalo later on in 1993 and you've given an extensive amount of detail about that, we're not here to discuss that now.  I just want you to answer my questions and I want you to listen carefully.  If you're tired and you want a break you must tell me and I'll approach the Committee and ask for you to have a break, but are you prepared to continue now?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes, I'm still alright.

MR WILLS: Now I wanted to know specifically whether M.Z. Khumalo knew about the crimes that you had recently committed and in respect of which you were running away?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I am trying to say in front of the Committee that there is no case that he did not know, even this one, my last one, ...[indistinct] to Mpumalanga.  He knew it very well.

MR WILLS: Now that - then you say in paragraph 41 that M.Z. had found some work for us and he gave you some money to go home to fetch your reference books, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it was like that.  It's a hundred rands for transport.

MR WILLS: Yes and essentially what occurred then was that on your way back from Durban, Mondli was arrested but you were fortunate enough to evade the police arrest, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Mondli was actually arrested at Maritzburg.  I wasn't going to Maritzburg - to Hammarsdale, I was going to ...[indistinct].  M.Z. Khumalo knew that Mondli was arrested.

MR WILLS: Yes and then you - in other words you went back, both of you went back to fetch your belongings but only you returned to Ulundi because Mondli was arrested when he went to fetch his belongings, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is like that.

MR WILLS: And you describe in 42 how the police came looking for you at Ulundi and you had actually hidden from the police when the South African Police came to look for you at Ulundi, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is the truth that Mondli took the police - maybe it's just that I started this thing in the middle.  When I arrived at Ulundi we were given beds, money and food.  When Mondli arrived that he started where we were given all these things.  At that time I was in the IFP office.  We were actually using the cars, IFP cars.  There was Kombi called "The Red Devil", we were playing with that car and there is another person by the name of ....[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: There was another person?  The interpreter missed the name of the other person.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I'm explaining that while we were playing with the Kombis, Victor Mia was not - took that Kombi, he went with it to Ulundi.  When I was playing with the chair, I just think that when you enter in the offices at Ulundi as he's demonstrating when you're turning to the left and you go to ...[indistinct] office and at that time there was a thing that the police could not arrest a person before reporting in the office.  When I was actually looking there I realised that there were the Boers and Mondli and then I ran away and then I hid and then the Kombi left where I was.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, can you just wait for me to ask you questions.  You're giving your evidence in a fast and confusing way.  I want you to listen carefully and just answer my questions in regard to this last aspect of your evidence.  Will you agree to do that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No I don't agree with that.  I want to explain it according to my way.  If I explain it according to your way then I will be confused.  My lawyer, the way you actually explain, I must explain until this comes to an end.  That's my plea to the Committee.  By the time you ask me questions some of the things I get confused so I would plea with you that can you give me a chance to explain so that everything can be explained to the entire community.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, can I just ask to take instructions at this stage?  I think it will speed things up, it's not too long before the lunch break, I wonder if I could ask whether or not we could take the lunch break at this stage and then come back at quarter to two?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills is it because you don't seem to be on the same page with your client?

MR WILLS: I think it's slightly more than that Ms Chairperson, I would like the opportunity to just discuss certain issues with him and then I think we'll facilitate this process far more efficiently.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we'll take the lunch adjournment now and we'll reconvene at quarter to two.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane, I remind you you're still under your former oath.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson, Members of the Committee.  I express my appreciation.  Indeed we were at cross purposes as regards the end of that examination and I appreciate the indulgence of that early adjournment.
	Mr Hlongwane, we're going to take a step back.  You ended up in M.Z. Khumalo's office after leaving or running away from the South African Police in Mpumalanga, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And what did M.Z. - what was the purpose for you going to M.Z.?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I was sent by Zekele Nkethle to hide there.

MR WILLS: And I see in the rest of your affidavit and I refer to pages 45 and 46 - sorry paragraphs 45 and 46 at pages 149 and 150 that eventually you were taken to Mkuzi Camp where you went into hiding, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now when you were at Mkuzi Camp you where then reintroduced to Madla Induna, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And also you met a person whose about to testify and that is Zwele Dlamini who was also at the camp at the time?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And I want to refer you to paragraph 47 of your affidavit.  Do you see that on page 150?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: You say there that Mkuzi Camp was the camp where Inkatha people committed crimes were hidden, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And who were they being hidden from?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: They were being hidden from the police.  This camp was only occupied by people who had killed UDF members therefore all the persons who occupied this camp had crimes of murder, at this camp.

MR WILLS: Yes and you say in the final sentence of paragraph 47 where you had a discussion with Zwele and Zwele assured me that since you had joined them and by that you referred to joining them at the camp, you should forget about all your cases as they would no longer be a problem and I quote
"He told me that M.Z. was their contact person with the SAP Security Branch and he solved all of the problems"
Is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you remained at this camp for some time where you got a new name and from then on you were referred to as Nehlanhla Langa, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And then we're not going to go into this evidence because it's going to be the subject of the Ermelo sitting of this Commission and it doesn't effect this community and that is later on you were introduced to the Black Cats and then you went to operate in the Ermelo area.  Is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you operated there for some time and then you were told to go to eSikhawini and you operated in eSikhawini for some time and you've given the Committee the evidence in relation to your operations in eSikhawini.  Do you recall that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And then it was towards the end of 1993 when the South African Police eventually caught up with you and you were arrested, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.