Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-12

CHAIRPERSON: No I think what he means is in total, all your experiences going to the Why Not bar, how many other people would you say that you would regard as friends went during your whole period that you went there?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: The whole?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you might only see six at a time or five at a time but if they were all there together, how many would be there?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Many, many, many.

CHAIRPERSON: Well this is what Mr Berger wants to know, any sort of ball park figure?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Oh, maybe 80 people over the period I was going there.

CHAIRPERSON: Eighty or eighteen?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Eighty.

CHAIRPERSON: 80?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Eighty, more.

MR BERGER: And these are people who were not your friends but also associates, people that you bumped into at the bar and then you struck up a meaningless conversation with them?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: No, a lot of them were friends, genuine friends from the old years that I'd see.

MR BERGER: Okay.

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Lifesavers, surfing, talking friends, work.

MR BERGER: Okay.  Let's move to the night of the attack.  You said that the Magoo's bar was so full, correct me if I'm wrong, so full that you went into Why Not because it was easier to get a beer there, would that be right?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I think I said that it was about 80 percent full and to go into the Why Not was a lot easier, less hassle to get in and just get a beer.  I did mention I walked there.

MR BERGER: Approximately how many people would you say were in Magoo's, Why Not, together that night?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Both combined?

MR BERGER: Yes.

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I'd say - it's hard to say, could have been plus minus 200 people.

MR BERGER: And of the plus minus 200 people how many of them did you know?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: As I said when I walked in and turned left and walked into the Why Not bar and struck up conversation with a friend of mine.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't go into Magoo's to see if you knew anybody there or not prior to going into the Why Not that night?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: You didn't have to because when you walked in the entrance, as you walked in it was jam packed by the stairs that go upstairs and that so I just knew by looking like that, go left.

CHAIRPERSON: You went in, you went into the Why Not and then ordered a beer and starting drinking, chatting with this friend of yours, Dennis Fletcher?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: That is correct, Dave Fletcher.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Dave?  I think that the question of whether how many of his friends were there when he said in his estimate there were 200 might be a bit, I think it's a bit unfair because he didn't do the rounds in Magoo's bar to see who he knew or didn't know.  How many people were in the Why Not would you estimate, that section you know, the Why Not when you went in?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: It's very hard to give an estimate but I know it was full because when you walked into the Why Not bar it was full then, it was full.  It was fairly full.

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't been there Mr Jeffers but when you say it's full what are you talking about, 30 people or more, less?  50?  I've got no idea of the bar.

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: It could have been more than seventy people I'd say.

CHAIRPERSON: In the Why Not itself?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: It could have been.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Would I be correct to say that the only person whom you saw that night whom you recognised that night was Mr Fletcher?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Fairly correct, I can't remember meeting anyone else, so I'd go along with that basically.

MR BERGER: And since that night have you ascertained whether any of your friends were present either in Magoo's or in Why Not at the time of the blast besides Mr Fletcher?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Yes there was a guy called Carl Haddon, Helen who was the barlady, Helen.

MR BERGER: Yes, anyone else who was there?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: The barlady Helen.

MR BERGER: Yes, besides Helen.

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Besides Helen?

CHAIRPERSON: He mentioned Carl Hannon, is it Hannon?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Haddon I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Haddon?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Yes.

MR BERGER: Anyone else?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: There were two other guys that - no, I can't remember their names.  That's all I know at this point.

MR BERGER: So would it be fair to say that there were just under 200 people approximately there in the Why Not and Magoo's bars that night whom you did not know at all?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I did not go into the Magoo Bar that night.

MR BERGER: Well since then, it's thirteen years ago, since then no one has come to you to say, to discuss that they were also in the bar that night?  Either of the bars?

CHAIRPERSON: I sure Mr Jeffers that if you had friends who were also in the bar on that night when the explosion took place and tore the place apart that you would have known whether they were there because that's the sort of thing you would talk about, surely?  Later?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Ja, over the years I've learnt to - I've come across people that were going there or in there, that kind of thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what Mr Berger is trying to establish is from all your discussion afterwards and I'm sure it must have been a huge topic of discussion, a bomb in your local drinking place would have obviously have been discussed a lot after the event by the people who were regulars at that bar.  Now from those later discussions do you have any idea as to how many of your friends were present, present in either of those bars at the time of the explosion or can't you say?  You've mentioned about four here, Carl Haddon, the barlady Helen and two other people, would there be any more that you know of that were there who you would say were your friends or acquaintances?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: There were a couple more but they could have been more of acquaintances.

MR BERGER: When you speak of a couple more, how many would that be?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Well I know a couple is two, I'd say about three or four.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Jeffers, of all those who were not your acquaintances who patronised either of those bars, are you able to say what their occupations were?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: No, I'm unable to.

MR BERGER: So Mr Jeffers, for all you know there could have been a whole host of Security personnel in the bar that night and you wouldn't have known it, aren't I correct?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I'm not sure that you could be correct.

MR BERGER: Well you testified to the Committee that the only way in which you could have identified a security person, Security Force person, would have been if that person was in uniform, that's what you said to the Committee, am I right?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: That's what I said.

MR BERGER: You also testified that you don't recall anyone in uniform that night, correct?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: That is correct.

MR BERGER: What I'm putting to you is for all you know there could have been a huge concentration of Security Force personnel, not in uniform, in the bar that night and you wouldn't have known about it?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: On that particular night?  I probably wouldn't have known about it.

MR BERGER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.  Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Jeffers, did you ever participate in any State President's Fund that was then set up shortly after the Why Not bar bomb for a claim for monies from them?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Yes.

MR DEHAL: And did you receive any benefits?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I think it was one thousand and forty rand or one thousand and thirty eight, something like that, yes.

MR DEHAL: But no more than two thousand?