Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

MR KADES: Was the death of Dr Asvat and rumours that were floating about at the time, concerning who had committed that murder, also a matter that you took into consideration in making this statement on the 16th of February and did you in fact have any information concerning the murder of Dr Asvat at the time?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I don't, Mr Morobe can speak for himself on that, I think all I remember, I had no specific information, but the one thing which was strange to me and I don't know whether that had some bearing on what I brought to bare on the statement, but Mrs Mandela's statement that she had apparently issued two days later, I think it was on the 29th?

MR KADES: The 29th, in the Star?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Which said that she knew exactly why Dr Asvat had been killed, until then, I would have been too scared to even think that Mrs Mandela who was really a close friend and even comrade of Dr Asvat, would have been involved in anything like that, and I guess the first doubt in my mind was when Mrs Mandela herself said she knows why he was killed.
 Which meant that there was now some connection between the killing and not Mrs Mandela, but Mrs Mandela's knowledge of events.  And somewhere at the back of my mind I assumed that was a factor, but let me just say that when we drafted the statement, it was very clear to us that there was nothing concrete that we could directly or even by inference, take into account, in relation to the Asvat death.

MR KADES: Well, the statement that you refer to is that of the Sunday Times on the 29th of January 1989, Mrs Mandela is alleged to have said Dr Asvat was the only professional witness to back my story that the boys allegedly to be kept against their will in my house, were in fact victims of abuse.  I gave them shelter, as is my duty as a social worker.
 Did you not follow up, did you not make enquiries concerning that statement and the startling statement of Mrs Mandela that you had previously (indistinct)

MURPHY MOROBE: No, certainly from the point where we are coming from, myself and Ahzar, we did not make that kind of follow up because we call that in so far as the events surrounding the Football Club and Mrs Mandela, there was a Crisis Committee that was tasked with the responsibility and that at that time for us to make that statement there were no clear connections initially, in spite of the statement, that still concerned us, but it was not really the main focus of our consideration when the statement was made.

MR KADES: Since that date, has any information reached you that would be of any consequence to point a finger in any direction in so far as that murder is concerned?

MURPHY MOROBE: No sir.

MR KADES: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kuny?

MR KUNY: Mr  Cachalia, I act for Ms Falati.  I just have one question which I would like to follow up with you.
 What basis do you have for believing that Ms Falati was involved in framing Bishop Verryn?

AZHAR CACHALIA: It is clear and I would be surprised if your client hasn't given you these instructions, that Ms Falati spoke to Mrs Mandela about Verryn.  That Ms Falati was in the manse and Mrs Mandela was not in the manse, and if you like, the information that came out of the manse, would have had to have come from Ms Falati and that is my understanding of what happened.
 Whether she was the dominant figure or the secondary figure, that I can't say, but she was involved in the disseminating information.

MR KUNY: Have you read Katiza Cebekhulu's book?

AZHAR CACHALIA: You mean Fred Bridgeland's book?

MR KUNY: I beg your pardon, the book in which she describes his account of various incidents?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I can best say that I have skimmed it.

MR KUNY: Because in that book, he doesn't implicate Ms Falati in the framing of Verryn.  His evidence in that regard, at least his account implicates Mrs Mandela, but not Ms Falati.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, I recall reading that, but I am not sure that Mr Bridgeland is correct.

MR KUNY: Were you here when Ms Falati gave evidence?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, I was.

MR KUNY: Do you recall that she said that she described two incidents in her evidence, one being the fact that she had noted a certain change in Katiza Cebekhulu's behaviour and that she had approached him in this regard and he had made certain allegations of molestation to her?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I do recall that, yes.

MR KUNY: And secondly she referred to an incident where Stompie had alleged that two of the boys had tried to feel him up?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, I remember that vaguely.

MR KUNY: And her evidence was that she was concerned about this.  She said that homosexuality in a community, in her community was regarded as an extremely serious, and she felt obliged and bound to take what she had, what was conveyed to her, to Mrs Mandela.  Are you aware of that evidence?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Well, I am aware of that.  In fact it is almost that evidence from my point of view, her strong feelings around homosexuality, made her feel that she needed to campaign against Paul Verryn.

MR KUNY: Well, were you aware of the fact that there was still, that Cebekhulu slept with a knife and that she feared that if there was any truth in these allegations, that Bishop Verryn may have been in some sort of physical danger?

AZHAR CACHALIA: How do I answer that?

MR KUNY: Well, there was evidence in this regard?

AZHAR CACHALIA: So, what are you wanting me to say about it?

MR KUNY: I am saying to you that you have made a statement that Ms Falati framed Bishop Verryn.  I am putting it to you that she took a situation which she believed that she had a responsibility, based on what she knew, to Mrs Mandela and that she says arising out, she was surprised at the assault which took place at Mrs Mandela's house on the day that the young men were abducted.
 I am challenging your statement that she framed Bishop Verryn.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Right, Mr Kuny let me say this.  What I do find and this is really what the Commission should find, I find it extraordinary difficult to accept that Ms Falati was merely the passive courier of information to Mrs Mandela.  Mrs Mandela heard the information, Falati then retreated and Mrs Mandela ran an operation.  That didn't work that way.
 If those are your instructions with respect, I think they are wrong.

MR KUNY: Why do you say that they didn't work that way?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I am not sure that I can take it much further, but given at that point the relationship between Mrs Mandela and Ms Falati, that there would have had to have been an involvement of both of them, this was not one person involved in this.

MR KUNY: What was their relationship?  Do you know how long they had known one another for?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Well, at that point they had a very close relationship.

MR KUNY: How do you know that?

AZHAR CACHALIA: On your client's version.  She was my leader, she said, she was my comrade.  I mean she went on and on about that.  You should know that.

MR KUNY: She indicated that at the time she took the information to Mrs Mandela, that she had not - the import of her evidence was that she had not at that stage had a close relationship with Mrs Mandela, but that she regarded Mrs Mandela as a figure in the community, someone who was a leader and someone who she felt could deal with the problem.

AZHAR CACHALIA: All right, well that is a proposition.  I find it difficult to accept, but I can't give direct evidence on that.

MR KUNY: No further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Fazel?