Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

MR MALAN: Sorry, were you full time in the organisation at the time of this incident, is this what you're saying to us?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, it was the early stage of the formation of the youth of Azania.

MR MALAN: So what was your responsibility?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I was responsible for organising, I was working under the Organising Committee.

MR MALAN: So were you appointed organiser of AZAPO?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, for the branch.

MR MALAN: Did they pay you?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No.

MR MALAN: Where did you get your livelihood from?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I was still under the care of my parents.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say you did not know any of the six people?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Even today I do not know them, I only saw their names on the papers this morning.  Well, I did not care much to look them in the newspapers.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, do you prefer to put questions before Mr Ameen?

MR BRINK: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Well put questions if you want to.

MR BRINK: I've just got one Mr Chairman, it depends on the answer, maybe two or three.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BRINK: I wonder if you can tell me please Mr Hlasa, am I correct in understanding your
evidence that Ikaneng Nani took part in the interrogation of these youths?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, Nadi took part as well as the comrades who have applied for amnesty.

MR BRINK: Was it Ikaneng Nani who told you that the youths had admitted being UDF members, after interrogation?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, it's Nani and he said one of them had a T-shirt written RMC on, Release Mandela Campaign.  This was an affiliate of UDF.

MR BRINK: Was Ikaneng Nani an active members of AZAPO?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, he was.

MR BRINK: What position did he hold?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: He did not have any position.

MR BRINK: Was he an ordinary member?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: He was an ordinary member.

MR BRINK: And am I correct in understanding your evidence that he gave the instruction to - I amy to wrong so correct me if I am, he gave the instruction that these youths should be taken out and killed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: He did not give instructions, he was not a senior member of the organisation.

MR BRINK: He took part in the killings though?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, he took part.

MR BRINK: You see, I think what the Committee really wants to know is who in fact, as an office bearer in AZAPO, gave an order that these youths must be killed.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I'm the first to testify today, maybe the other comrades would come and testify better.  Those who took part in the interrogation, they would say and explain who gave them instructions.

MR BRINK: You never made any enquiry from anyone as to where the instructions had come from?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I made investigations now when we adjourned for lunch.

MR BRINK: And what did you find?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I was told Tiny Motlago and Sam Siyema gave an instruction.

MR BRINK: Did you not know that before this hearing today?  I mean you have had ample opportunity to make these enquiries and you do it in the lunch adjournment, approximately an hour and a half after the hearings had started today.  I find that very strange Mr Hlasa.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I knew that instructions were taken out by the organisation, who in particular I did not know.

MR BRINK: But you say you know now?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Now I know.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

MR MALAN: May I just follow up on that.  If I understood your evidence correctly you didn't know of any instruction, you only knew that if the interrogation would show that these people were UDF people, if that could be confirmed they would be killed, that was the evidence you gave us.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Not to be killed but to deal with them.  If there was a proof that they were members of the UDF we were to deal with them, not that if we proved that they were members of the UDF we were going to kill them, it's not like that.

MR MALAN: So when did you for the first time learn that they were to be killed?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: ...[inaudible]

MR MALAN: Sorry, let me assist you in this because really I get confused now.  I think you told us you were working on the car, you were cleaning it because there was oil, you didn't take part in the interrogation, when they came out you were told to put on the ignition, to turn the ignition because these people were to be killed, that was your evidence.  ...[indistinct] and you say Nani told you that.   And you went to the other house, you had the caucus in the kitchen, you arranged and you went out and you did the shootings in the two sessions.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Ja, ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry, this is the point I want to get to, you never had an order to kill, this is what you are saying, you were ready to kill.  They were ready to be dealt with, you were told to put on the ignition, it was just communicated to you that you must drive, "we're going to kill these people"?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No, that is not true, an instruction was taken out that these people were going to be killed, we should start the car and go.  Truly, we would not kill them in Orlando West because the area was predominantly UDF.
	When Kani went out of the house he said: "Let's go, we're going to kill these people", "whereto"? and the answer was: "We're going to comrade Glen's house.  We arrived at comrade Glen's house, they were put in the diningroom and we caucused in the kitchen.  The instruction was already issued out to be killed.  The caucus was about how and where, those were the two issues for the caucus in the kitchen.

MR MALAN: But again if I understand you correctly, you never had any knowledge of any specific instruction, you were simply told by Nani: "Put on, we're driving away to this other house, these people are going to be killed"?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That's what he said.  He said an instruction had been issued out, an order was taken out that they be killed.  He even gave me a reason, he said they had been tortured already and we can't just leave them.

MR MALAN: Did he say they had to be killed because they were tortured?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No, because they were members of the UDF.

MR MALAN: Now where does the torture story, where does that part fit in?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: He told me that they were tortured during the interrogation and they told the truth and it was confirmed they were members of the UDF, that's how  torture is involved in this, he was explaining to me now.

MR MALAN: Did he say to you that there was the RMC T-shirt, one of them had an RMC T-shirt, is that what you said?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, he explained that.

MR MALAN: ...[inaudible] give evidence that they were wearing various T-shirts, UDF T-shirts, Release Mandela Campaign T-shirts, did you tell that to us earlier?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was in a different context.

MR MALAN: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You may stand down Mr Hlasa, we will proceed to call one of your colleagues with the understanding that we are not through with you yet, you must still come back so that Mr Ameen can put some questions to you.
WITNESS EXCUSED