Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Because of the people who used to attend.  Most of those people weren't in the Education Department, or teachers for that matter.

JUDGE PILLAY: But how do you know those people were members or attached to the Labour Party then?  How did those meetings acquire the label of Labour Party meetings, or why do you say they were Labour Party meetings?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Judge, from information I used to get from people who used to attend these meetings too.  By speaking with these people, that's how I got to find out such things.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lecordier, were these big public meetings or were they meetings attended by a small group of people?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Actually, Sir, I can't really say if the group was big or small because they never really had much support, and I never used to like go and stay there, I just used to follow and see oh, he's going there okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: You say you spoke to people who went to these meetings, did I understand that comment correctly?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Please may I have the names of the persons or people.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't remember the people's names that I've spoken to.  The thing is I used to speak to them and make like I'm interested in what they were doing and these meetings that they were attending.  That's how I used to gather some of my information.

MR RICHARD: How many such people did you speak to?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't remember.

MR RICHARD: Was it one or more than one?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was more than one I'd say.

MR RICHARD: What - how often would you have spoken to such people?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Now if I put it to you that it might have been that in and during '83, Mr Klein's involvement with the Labour Party consisted of assisting in putting up some posters, but very little more than that, would you agree with that proposition or deny it?

CHAIRPERSON: Just to make it clear, before we get into another debate.  You're putting to Mr Lecordier that his only involvement with the Labour Party was assisting in putting up posters during or about 1983, or are you saying during or about 1983 his only involvement was putting up posters, then something else happened in '84 and something else in '85?

MR RICHARD: The extent was that in and during ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that his ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: ... his involvement was and thereafter ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So it was - his only real active involvement in the Party or to do with the Party, was assisting in putting up posters during or about 1983?

MR RICHARD: Correct, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That's been put to you, what would you say to that, Mr Lecordier?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I wouldn't really know what or how deep Mr Klein was with the Labour Party when say "assisting in putting up posters".  That's the information you got, you weren't living in Wentworth where I was living at the time.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Lecordier, you misunderstand.  Mr Richard is entitled because he disputes Mr Klein's involvement the way you explain it.  He is then entitled to put his instructions to you and he said that the only involvement, in terms of his instructions, is that Mr Klein helped the Labour Party in its election campaign in 1983, by putting up posters.  What do you say about it?

CHAIRPERSON: The implication being that your evidence relating to his attendance of meetings when you were doing your own intelligence gathering, is not correct.  That's what's being put to you.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Then I'd say he's wrong.  And then for one to put up posters for the Labour Party, doesn't that show that one is a supporter or a member of them?  If you did not support the Party that I belonged to, would you go and put up posters?

MR RICHARD: What profession did Mr Klein practice at the time?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: He was a teach at the time, or a principal of the school.

MR RICHARD: You've mentioned a number of other names, what profession did they belong to?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: If I remember correctly, they were teachers as well.

MR RICHARD: Now if a number of teachers gathered together, would that be sinister in your mind?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Could you be more - rephrase the question please.

MR RICHARD: If a number of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you can be a bit more specific because teachers usually gather together when they go to work in the morning during term time and although many people might thing that's sinister, it's not really.

MR RICHARD: If a number of teachers gathered together at a time outside ordinary work hours, would you see that as something sinister?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I wouldn't.

MR RICHARD: Now at these meetings which you say you know Mr Klein went to, do you know who else was at the meetings?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I wouldn't remember who else was there.  The thing is I was concentrating on one person at a time.

MR RICHARD: So that means you are telling us that you didn't know who else Mr Klein met with when he went to these meetings.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It's not what I said.

MR RICHARD: I put my question again.  Your evidence is Mr Klein attended certain meetings, am I right?  My next question is, do you know who else besides Mr Klein was at those meetings?  Your answer was "No", do you want to correct your answer?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I said no, I do not remember the other people who were there because I was concentrating on Mr Klein at the time.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry.  How did you link Mr Klein, the meetings and the Labour Party together, what was the common link?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I was aware that these were Labour Party meetings that he was attending.

ADV SIGODI: How did you know that they were Labour Party meetings, that they were not some other meetings?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Sometimes these meetings used to be advertised, sometimes people in Wentworth used to discuss that they've been asked to attend these certain meetings, Labour Party meetings.

ADV SIGODI: Yes.  And if they were advertised, how would they be advertised?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Like on a poster just placed on a wall or somewhere in Wentworth.

ADV SIGODI: And would this poster state where the meeting would be?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The venue and the time.

ADV SIGODI: And the time?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR RICHARD: Was it on a Labour Party poster?  You know I think they used to have an anchor or something.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Would that be the type of poster?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, Judge.  I can't remember the exact poster, what it looked like.

JUDGE PILLAY: What I'm trying to get at, their name would be there and their logo would be there on the poster.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you're talking about public meetings, the sort of meetings that would be held in a school hall rather than in some office somewhere.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Open to the public.

CHAIRPERSON: Public meetings?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, yes.

ADV SIGODI: And did you at any stage follow Mr Klein to any of those meetings which were ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I did.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

JUDGE PILLAY: What type of information would get to people who also attended that meeting, about Mr Klein's participation in such meetings?  Or did you get in fact - let me ask it this way, did you get any information about that.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Can you repeat that, Judge.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well you testified that you spoke to people who also attended those meetings, in the exercise of your intelligence gathering about Mr Klein.  Would they tell you whether they participated in the meeting or not?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Judge, I don't think I said it the way you're saying it to me.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well that's how I understood it.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: From what I said was ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: Tell me then what you meant.