Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

JABU OBET MASINA: I'm asking for amnesty because things have changed, they are not like before.  And taking somebody's life is not an easy thing as such.  I know that many people are disturbed by this and I know that nobody would like a person.  Everyone has got their enemies.
	I know that no matter the fact that Molope was a bad element to the other people of South Africa, but those who loved him endeared him and therefore we are bound to ask for amnesty because of the situation that was a war which was prevailing at the time.

MR MOLOPE: We, the next of kin to the deceased, we accept that that was your work, as you explained that Mr Chris Hani did that.  It is for the first time we hear this information.  All this time we did not know what happened.  The way you express yourself, this was your work and that is why I said to you you did not kill Mr Molope only.  We dispute your application for amnesty.  We are suffering even now, we are still crying for him, we are still bereaved.  It shows that that was your work or your profession.
	You were instructed by your seniors and we are suffering, we as members of the family.  You were not arrested and it is for the first time we hear of this information and that hurts us, so we are rejecting your application for amnesty.  They may give you amnesty if they would do so.  Even if we 
say we reject your amnesty and if they are going to give you amnesty they will do so.  You are working now, you are working at a good job which I cannot afford to be in that position which you are in.  
	If my father was still alive he would try to do good things for us.  You have benefited for what you have done, now you are asking us to forgive you.  Those who forgive will do so or maybe God will forgive you but we will not forgive you because you were not arrested for this case and then you have killed our father.  
	Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOPE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Molope.
	Mr van den Berg, do you have any re-examination?

MR VAN DEN BERG: None, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions you wish to put to the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Masina, did you ever know Mr Molope personally?

JABU OBET MASINA: No, I did not know him personally.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you have anything against him personally, apart from his political views?

JABU OBET MASINA: No, I did not hate him personally but just because he was an enemy.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata, do you have any questions?

ADV MOTATA: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Masina, you say you received training and you mentioned further that you received further training, general training in other words, and thereafter you did a communication course.  What did this training of your entail?

JABU OBET MASINA: Are you talking about the communication?

ADV MOTATA: Let's start with the general training, the further training you received generally, briefly.

JABU OBET MASINA: General training lasts nine months where you are taught tactics of guerrilla warfare and once you've finished that if the organisation feels that you can go for further training then they send you for any other training where you can specialise.

ADV MOTATA: Now you mentioned that you were once based in Swaziland where you assisted people from South Africa and people to infiltrate South Africa.  I want to you just explain to us, whilst you were in exile how could you assist people to get into exile?

JABU OBET MASINA: I used to take them from exile and assist them with jumping the fence in Swaziland to infiltrate South Africa and leave them wherever, where they would get public transport in South Africa and then I would go back.

ADV MOTATA: The infiltration which eventually brought you to the subject matter of today, were you told by Chris Hani that you should specifically go to the Winterveld area or South Africa in general, were you deployed to a certain area in other words?

JABU OBET MASINA: We decided where we wanted to be deployed and we opted for Winterveld.

ADV MOTATA: And prior to your departure, because the Winterveld Massacre had occurred, were you told by Chris Hani when you selected Winterveld that you should concentrate on Molope?

JABU OBET MASINA: No, they didn't say that we should focus on Molope only.

ADV MOTATA: Other than the massacre of the eleven people in March 1986 you mentioned that Molope was bad, were you specifically just referring to the massacre or were there other general things which Molope was bad about?

JABU OBET MASINA: Nothing that I'm aware of other than the massacre of 1986.  Maybe the fact that he was in the Bantustan(?) Government might have been one of the things but there were some policemen in the Bantustan who were good and we wouldn't do anything to them.

ADV MOTATA: The escapee, Mokobojane, you said these people were bad, you spoke inclusively.  If we may just ask what was bad about Mokobojane, did he massacre people in Winterveld as well?

JABU OBET MASINA: He was second in command of Molope.  They concurred in many things, him and Molope.

ADV MOTATA: Just a last one Mr Masina.  I heard you - correct me if I'm mistaken, that after you had identified, after your reconnaissance of the whereabouts of Mr Molope you went back to Botswana to get your final orders, did you actually go out and come back the second time?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Advocate Sigodi, do you have any questions?

ADV SIGODI: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg, do you have any questions arising from questions that have been put by the panel?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I have none Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: None Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Masina, you may stand down.

JABU OBET MASINA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, it was my intention to call Mr Masango.  I note that we've worked right through tea.  We did start late, so I don't know if this would be an appropriate time to adjourn for a short period.
	I also note that family of the late Brigadier are somewhat distressed and it might be an appropriate time for them just to take a break.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you just want a short adjournment, because we have wasted quite a lot of time, when I say wasted, not intentionally but a bit of time has been wasted or lost this morning and I think we should try to catch up.  We can take a short adjournment now, let's say just until 12 o'clock or very shortly thereafter and then we'll go through to the lunch adjournment and then proceed again.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS