Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR TIPP: Well that's what would normally happen with a crowd control, the position on this day in fact was different, there was no Induna that you could see, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: I moved to the group, I didn't see any other group as such, I moved to that group.

MR TIPP: Just deal with the question, you didn't see any Induna to whom you could have - whom you could approach?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't.

MR TIPP: And also there were no Policemen moving with the group?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: Now Inspector van Reenen, I want to remind you of your evidence, we can go through the record if necessary, but at the stage that you were at the front of the group, you then feared for your own safety, is that correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's, when they had already crossed De Villiers Street and they didn't want to concede to my appeal to move down De Villiers Street, I moved right in an eastern direction and I was bumped out of the way, myself and Sergeant van Greunen, by the crowd.

MR TIPP: You used in the inquest frequently the phrase "hulle het jou uit die pad uit gestamp", correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And now at that stage it was clear that this was a different kind of march from ones that you dealt with previously, two uniformed Policemen openly carrying weapons had gone to them, with arms outstretched, calling on them to turn away and clearly indicating that should turn away, and they ignored you, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Now at that stage, let's look at your state of mind, at that stage did you fear for your own safety?

MR VAN REENEN: I knew firstly that I was on the corners of King George and Plein Streets where shooting had already taken place moments before.  It was an ANC building, here was an IFP march approaching the building, there would possibly be further confrontation and I was caught between the two parties, and I moved right.

MR TIPP: Well let me just read to you a few lines from you evidence at the inquest.  Mr Chairman I begin at 2094, at line 24.  I asked you the following question, I said

MR TIPP: "I'm not discussing possibilities with you, I want you to tell us what your state of mind was at that instant...", we're talking now about the stage that they were clearly going to ignore you, "and let me ...", the question goes on, "... let me ask you again and you can answer, did you fear for your safety - or let me stop there, did you fear for your safety?"

WITNESS:  and your answer "Ja, toe hulle oor die straat beweeg en ek gesien het ek kan die mense nie keer nie, toe gaan ek na die kant toe"

MR TIPP: then over the page, Mr Chairman, 2095, the Court understood it, the Court said:

MR TIPP: "Dan is die antwoord ja.",

WITNESS:  and you said "Ja, in daardie opsig, ek moes wegkom voor die groep want anders sou die groep my ook moontlik beseer het.  Indien wel, toe beweeg ek weg voor die groep."

MR VAN REENEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And then the Court went on in the next line, said

MR TIPP: "So die antwoord is ja ...", did you fear for your own safety, "...die antwoord is ja, is dit so?

WITNESS:  Van die groep se kant af, ja.  Hulle wou nie afgedraai het nie en ek wou nie voor hulle bly nie."

MR TIPP: So from the on-coming group's side you feared for your own safety at that stage?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, that's exactly what I've said, after they had already crossed the street and they didn't want to concede ...(intervention)

MR TIPP: That's the stage I'm now talking about, how things developed there when they clearly ignored the Police instructions to turn away.  And on that same page, the very next lines Mr Chairman, just for the record, at lines 11 to 13 on page 2095, I then asked you

MR TIPP: "Did you think then Inspector, that if you try to stand your ground, that you would be overrun and physically harmed by this oncoming group?"

WITNESS:  And your answer was simply "Ja."

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And at page 2096, Mr Chairman, lines 18 to 20, in that context I specifically asked you, the previous question was the sight of this group proceeding onwards despite the efforts of the Police to divert them, that was the context, and then I asked you specifically at line 18"

MR TIPP: "For anyone in their path, was it not a sight to induce fear?"

WITNESS:  And your answer:  "Ja, die persoon wat hulle wil keer, natuurlik vir daardie persoon."

MR TIPP: Correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And you'll remember, just to put it in the perspective of the perceptions of the ANC people who were on duty to protect the building and the lives of those in it, I asked you whether you could point to any facts that would suggest that their perception that what was happening was an attack, and you said you could point to no facts to suggest that that perception would be wrong, do you remember that?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You confirm it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's right.

MR TIPP: Now Inspector, one of the important elements playing a role in that situation, from the point of anybody like yourself who was involved in it, was a question of time, and again I'm not going to waste time, it's not intended to be a pun, I just want to get directly to the point.  You'll remember at one stage I asked you "did it ever occur to you to use teargas to try to keep them away", and your answer was in the context of your were already close to the group and it was no longer possible to do that.  Do you remember that bit of evidence?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you were asked at page - at 2098 some questions by the Court, the previous question beginning at line 19 Mr Chairman
"Hoekom het u nie omgedraai en in King George Straat terugbeweeg en aanhou om die groep te probeer keer?"
In other words why didn't you just continue your efforts to stop them and move all the way down King George?
You answer:  "As ek dit so moet vat, indien daar gevuur sou gewees het sou ek in die middel gewees het voor die groep en voor die mense wat op die hoeke staan van King George en Pleinstraat."

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: So you're saying, from your point of view at that stage, you were now between two possible perils, the oncoming group which might harm you, and the ANC who might harm you if in fact they opened fire?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: And the Court then went on in the next question

MR TIPP: "Is dit nou wat u gedink het op daardie stadium, as ek nou voor hierdie groep aangaan, miskien gaan ek geskiet word?"

WITNESS:  and your answer was, I'm going to read it: "Alles gebeur so vinnig op daardie stadium, daar gaan so baie deur 'n mens, jy moet altyd alles voorsien, jy het 'n paar sekondes om te dink wat moet jy doen, waarnatoe moet jy gaan, wat moet jy presies doen in daardie spesifieke tyd."

MR TIPP: Correct?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And does that still in your mind correctly reflect the pressure that was on you at that time?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: When - I think when you speak here about a few seconds, "'n paar sekondes", you literally meant that, it was just a few seconds.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And extrapolating Inspector, the ANC personnel would have been in substantially the same situation as you, they would also have had literally at that stage as that group kept coming past - ignoring you, kept coming on into King George Street, they also had literally a few seconds in which to assess the situation and to react.

MR VAN REENEN: They had more time than I did because they were further away from the group than I was.

MR TIPP: It's a very short block that, isn't it?

MR VAN REENEN: Approximately 50 - 60 paces.

MR TIPP: And they were already into King George Street?

MR VAN REENEN: They were with me approximately 10 to 15 paces into it.

MR TIPP: Roughly speaking, another 40 metres?