Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-06

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, just one question.
	In paragraph 25 on page 11, it says here:
"We later heard from (I'm assuming it should be from, rather than by) Nonxuba, that ..."
and when this was read, instead of saying "he", Mr Mbandazayo, you used the word "we", and I just wanted to clarify that.  Was that just a slip of the tongue?  You've read it as "we" and I want to know from the witness whether in that regard you - because you then confirmed it and didn't correct it, did you people phone or did you phone Nonxuba or did he phone you?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: He phoned me the following morning, Sir.  He phoned me very early, I think it was about half past six to seven, that he heard over the news what happened.

MR LAX: I just wanted to clarify whether you reported back to him, or he told you about it.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: No, I reported it to him, Sir, but he phoned just to confirm, because he heard, so he wanted to find out whether we did that or what.  So he phoned as he heard from the news that the bus was shot, then he phoned that right, we did carry out the order, what?  So then I reported to him.

MR LAX: Did you phone him after the operation separately to report it, or did you use this particular opportunity to report it?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Actually I didn't phone after the operation, when he phoned me I reported the incidents.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chair, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one technical point.  Mr Henge, I see from the documentation, page 1, that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission received your application during May 1997, is that correct?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was only attested to after that, if you take a look at page 7.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Actually what happened here, Sir, if you can look at page, the original, the first application, this was the application form that was filled in by Happy Mpahlele.  We were here in Cape Town.  He advised me to, as I've stated it.  So this was a form of ...(indistinct), I think that he didn't have another application form with him, so he just cancelled it, then after filling in, he sent it to the Commission.  Then I think a person by the name Lorraine Manie then did the follow-up from the Commission.  So this year, it was then that a gentleman from East London came to me and he took me to the police station so that I can confirm the whole ...

CHAIRPERSON: And do you now confirm the correctness of the contents of this application?

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I just wanted to clarify that as well from the Commission's side.  We did receive Mr Henge's application in '97, but because of the requirements of the Act, that it has to be attested to, we then sent it and it was faxed and that is why ...

CHAIRPERSON: It's a fairly common occurrence, it's not the first time we've come across it, but one of the requirements is that it complies with the requirements of the Act, and I just wanted to get that on record.  Thank you.  Any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?

MR RILEY: No questions, thank you Chair.

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Henge, that concludes your evidence, thank you.

THEMBINKOSI HENGE: Thank you, Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I take it, Mr Mbandazayo, you won't have any further witnesses, you intimated to that effect earlier.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I won't have any further witnesses, as I indicated Chairperson, but I would also like to request the Committee that the affidavit of Sipho ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll take into account when we decide on this matter, the documentation before us as well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Submissions?  Sorry, Mr Riley, do you intend to call any evidence?

MR RILEY: ;   If the Committee can give me a brief moment to just consult with the victims and then ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Riley, the victims, it's entirely up to them, they may give evidence under oath, in which event they may be asked questions, they may make a statement without taking the oath, in which case there won't be any cross-examination, or of course if they want to then they needn't accept any of those options.

MR RILEY: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment now while Mr Riley consults with his clients.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Riley?

MR RILEY: Thank you, Chairperson.  I have had the opportunity of speaking to the victims who are present here, we have decided that no-one wishes to testify at this stage and that any further submissions will be made by myself.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I take it you're not calling any witnesses?

MS COLERIDGE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any submissions you'd like to make.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Chairperson, I need not go to the contents of the requirements of the Act, it's known to the Committee.  But Chairperson, I would like just to highlight some few aspects of this application.
	Chairperson, I'm preaching to the already converted people who know about these things, but for the purposes of the victims, they don't understand these things because they have not been involved in this process.  
	We know, Chairperson, that at the time of the incident there were negotiations in Kempton Park and all the parties were involved in the negotiations, including PAC.  But Chairperson, we also know that it was only PAC in the negotiations in Kempton Park, which was negotiating with the gun, holding the gun.  They did not suspend the armed struggle.  Whilst they were negotiating, at the same time they were busy operating.  And Chairperson, the Committee knows that as a result of that, whilst they were in negotiations, in the same May, PAC offices all over the country were raided and leaders were arrested.  It nearly destroyed the whole negotiating process, as a result of that.  
	And as a result of that, PAC, it's also documented that they decided APLA was to intensify the struggle.  And some of the incidents one would know, one of the Members, Mr Lax knows that the Diepkloof incident was also a sequel of that, that you must hit hard to the enemy after those raidings of the PAC offices and the arresting of their leaders.  So they intensified and at the same time they were in the negotiations.
	And Chairperson, we also know that it was the year in which the late Commander of APLA, Sabelo Pama, declared it as the Year of the Great Storm, and we know what does that mean.  And at that year it was - in fact if I may put it in a more crude manner, it was almost a year, they wanted it to be a year of anarchy, you know.  So all those things, Chairperson, it's known by the Committee, but the victims don't know about those things.
	And also, Chairperson, we know that in as much as the PAC was at pains to explain its policies, but these things happened that they - in fact the last document which was submitted by Ngelan Moendane, when the Chairman of the TRC process asked that the PAC must spell out is policy towards whites and they explained it and how they interpreted it.  And many a times, I'm not intending to bore you, that I've said that that submission was based on this book on Sobukwe ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: About the sjambok?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ... analogy of the sjambok.  They always used that analogy of the sjambok.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can mention it to the victims.