Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Mr Chairman yes, that was during that timeframe of period '82, the first half of '83 when we were busy with these activities. Dr Basson himself asked me if I would be willing to establish a clandestine facility for the South African Defence Force to evaluate products, basically chemical weapons products and some biological weapons products.
 During that same in '82, '83 I was involved with a group of people based in France, through South African, through the Development Corporation, the NOK, the Industrial Development Corporation of establishing a private company doing contract pharmaceutical research, testing the efficacy and the safety of new pharmaceuticals for European pharmaceutical companies.  We were negotiating this and it was known to my friends and colleagues that I was busy negotiating with these people, I was offered then this project with a colleague from South Africa, a financial man, a 50% share in this Europe/South African joint company of establishing this.  I was involved with the company in establishing the market, the international market for this type of work to be established.  
 The bottom line was that in Europe and America the requirements, and my friend Professor Folb will bear me out on this, the requirements for registering new medicines became stricter and stricter.  They need to be tested more and more, safety and efficacy.  But the pressure on the European scientific community for not using animals became also stricter and stricter.  Legitimate arguments like rats and mice etc is not good models for testing because the human is not a rat or a mouse was applied.  South Africa, though, had a clear abundance of non-human primates.  Now non-human primates to keep them as laboratory animals in Europe and America was a very, very, very costly exercise and large sums of money were paid for these testing of drugs to have access to non-human primates.  So that was the basis for this agreement.  And I was specialising in fact in this non-human primate model business.  
 So I can tell you, yes, I was involved in international market studies.  It was a very, very viable business.  We were involved in putting up a multi-million rand company with money put in place, high investors, with personnel, with shareholding of Nobel prize winners in pharmacology etc, with scientists involved because to get contracts, nobody gives you a contract if you have lay-people in your company.  So you need to have reputable scientists in your company and we had everything in place to form this company.  And if you will excuse me I wouldn't like to mention the names of the people involved.  It is, as I have said, even Nobel prize winners. 
 Dr Basson, and he was aware of this, we had discussions on this and the way we are going, and he said, "look man, for the country, we need this.  Can you not establish a clandestine company for us along similar lines to this.  Because you are known now to be involved in this".

MR CHASKALSON: By clandestine I presume you mean a company that would be known to the public but would actually be operating or at least partially operating for the South African Defence Force?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes, yes Sir, this was a question around how would we do it?  Would I use this other one which I am involved in or not?  No, not the other one, not the private one which I was really private with, but a clandestine front solely for the military.  I had to make a decision then between the two options - either to go and work for the military and the country, sort-of producing under the same front, "dekmantel - dit was die dekmantel for hierdie maatskappy" - "that was the cover for this company" because Goosen was busy to develop a toxicological company.  Everybody knew I was busy with that.  The names just varied.
 I had to decide if I wanted to go completely in a private business or if I wanted to join or facilitate the army in their effort on starting this facility of evaluating chemical and biological weapons.  Chairman I believe someone said the other day they have good judgement, it comes only after 50 years of experience, and 50 years of experience comes from bad decisions.  So I believe I made the wrong judgement at that stage.  I opted for supporting the effort from the government.   I was in fact flown, scheduled to fly to France, and I did fly to France to sign the final documents for the European/South African company, and I flew in, we had an half-an-hour discussion and I had to stay there two weeks because the planes were not leaving because we stopped the business then.  That was the end of my option of being involved financially for myself in a 50% share in that company.  I gave that up to be involved with this effort for the military.
 So we had a lot of arguments on how exactly to set this company up.

MR CHASKALSON: Could you tell us who "we" are?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Dr Wouter Basson and myself.

MR CHASKALSON: And it was only the two of you having this discussion?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Just the two of us, yes.  The initial discussions were amongst us and it went on for over a period of time.  We didn't sit down in one session and sort out everything.  This, as I have explained, was coming along over some time.
 I learned from him that there was already a company in existence, a front company, producing the chemicals.  Initially I didn't know which one, later I've learnt from him that it was Delta-G.  Then I knew also the connection that that was the people that approached me about a year before to help them with the assistance of lab animals.
 I've asked Dr Basson, at one stage, but I've met you here and we had some dealings and we had some business and we did some science etc, or we at the Institute did the science for him, he wasn't really involved in developing anything, who was he and what does he represent and how can I know that all these promises he makes that he can supply the money to put up the facilities, pay the salaries etc, etc, could be in place?  He was at that stage, I believe, a colonel.  He might even be a commandant still, a lieutenant colonel.   So I asked him who are you?  Where do you come from?  So he said no, no, I am Wouter. I am a medical doctor, internist, but I can tell you one thing the generals listen to me, don't you worry.  I promise you, the generals listen to me.  You can make your plans, you can give up your plans, carry on.
 Okay, then I made the commitment.  I had to make the commitment then finally to him and say okay I will go with you because I had to make - before I was open with him I had to decide between the options.  After I made the commitment I was then introduced to the people higher up who was the Surgeon-General, General Nieuwoudt, Nicol Nieuwoudt.  He is deceased already I believe.

MR CHASKALSON: Did you meet with any of the other higher-ups, or was it just the Surgeon-General?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: No Sir just the Surgeon-General.

MR CHASKALSON: And did you continue that discussion as to how the company should be formed, whether it would be best to be a private company or whether it should be falling formally within the SADF structures?