Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: I told this to the regional office that suchand such a thing is happening here in Kroonstad and I told (indistinct)was our chairman and he asked me whether the person that perpetratedthis thing, whether he was a comrade or not and then I said itwas our SAYCO organising secretary and (indistinct) would lookinto this matter.   I believe (indistinct) occasions I thoughtwe would show this programme but she never came up with a solution.  From there I couldn't go anywhere.

<UNKNOWN>: : When we go to the year 1992 at the time ofthe Diwiti's killing will you say you were a member of the ANCWomen's League?

ANSWER: I won't say I was a member because there wasno meeting that I attended, I didn't know the procedures, I didn'teven know what was happening.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is it true then that after the conflict betweenDiwiti and his gang and the SAYCO members which is the ANC YouthLeague, was there another political organisation that approachedDiwiti and his gang so that they can join them?

ANSWER: What do you mean?

<UNKNOWN>: : I mean a political organisation.

ANSWER: No, no other political organisation approachedDiwiti, he personally went to Welkom he said sister the ANC peoplecannot help me, I tried Dennis but these people say they don'twant to meet me.   The ministers came together trying to resolvethis issue but there is no solution and then he further went onto say the person who is the Premier today came also to try toresolve the issue, he said it's better if I associate myself witha political organisation maybe there might be a solution to thisproblem.

<UNKNOWN>: : Which organisation?

ANSWER: That is Inkatha.

<UNKNOWN>: : From there he wanted to pursue his aims underthe umbrella of Inkatha if I have to use that word?

ANSWER: I think he didn't pursue his aims.   What hewanted, he wanted that committee, the Inkatha committee becausehe'd already explained that he was a member of ANC.  He thoughtthat they would come for negotiations.

<UNKNOWN>: : My question is he wanted something to happenbut the ANC and its leadership couldn't help him, then he thoughtmaybe by resolving to Inkatha his aims, if he wanted peace, maybeit would be better if he associate himself with Inkatha?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : From there he went on to pursue his aims underthe umbrella of this political organisation called Inkatha?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mamorena we are all gathered here today asMr Mpshe has already indicated, what, so many things happenedwithin this community, things that hurt us, I want you to takeout what is rooted deep inside your heart.   This Committee isnot a court of law to try a person, but what message do you haveto the community of Kroonstad regarding this matter, regardingeverything that happened in the past?

ANSWER: What do you mean brother Oupa?

<UNKNOWN>: : I mean this way, this Committee is trying toheal the wounds of this community for the bad things, I'm notreferring to the things that were committed by Diwiti, but I amreferring to all incidents that took place in the past but accordingto your will or your wish would you like to have reconciliationand peace?

ANSWER: Yes I would like the Committee to help us thatthere should be reconciliation.   Many people died, some are injail, even up to this day people are still pointing fingers atus and it is really hurting if people still point fingers at uswhile other people are dead and some are in jail.   Now it seemsas if there is no peace and I would like the community of Maokengto know what happened and they should know that this was not donepurposefully.   I don't know how to put it this message clearthat the evil spirit reigned in Maokeng because when a personwanted to speak something he would be made to keep quiet.

<UNKNOWN>: : In other words what happened was actually perpetratedfrom outside?

ANSWER: Yes I think so brother Oupa because I don't understandthat an issue, a woman can make, can cause such a conflict upto this day there is no solution, we are still being pointed withfingers.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATSEPE
QUESTIONS BY JUDGE MGOEPE

<UNKNOWN>: : You said your brother to use the words thatwere put across in the interpretation associated himself withthe IFP, did he in fact become a member?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why did he have to go to Welkom, does it meanthat there was no IFP branch here at the time?

ANSWER: I don't know but it seems as if there was nobranch here, he says he was going to Welkom and there is an IFPbranch, he has to meet the leadership of the organisation.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know whether or not he established abranch here in Maokeng after he had joined in Welkom?

ANSWER: No there was no branch here because he wantedthose people to come down so that there can be negotiations tosolve the issues.   I don't remember him having a membership card.

<UNKNOWN>: : I assume obviously you attended his funeral?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you remember whether an IFP flag was raisedduring the funeral or there were people with IFP flags?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct sir.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm not so sure, I asked two questions, whatis correct?

ANSWER: The IFP flag was raised and the members of theIFP were present at the day of the funeral.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know Mr (indistinct) from Welkom?

ANSWER: Yes I know him.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was he present during the funeral?

ANSWER: No he wasn't present.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY JUDGE MGOEPE
EXAMINATION BY JUDGE WILSON

<UNKNOWN>: : Sorry just one question I'd like to ask youabout and I may have misheard what you said (tape ends, questionlost)...what did you mean by that, can you develop it a little,tell me what woman and what conflict?

ANSWER: As I've already explained that it is allegedthat Diwiti was fighting, George was being fought against becauseof his wife and I didn't think that an issue involving a womancould cause such a great confusion.

<UNKNOWN>: : You say he was being fought against becauseof his wife?   Why was that, what was she doing to cause peopleto want to fight against him?

ANSWER: The meeting that I've referred to with DennisBloem it was the meeting to call SAYCO organisation to clear thefact that Diwiti is not fighting SAYCO, he was fighting Georgebecause George is in love with his wife, that is where he wasattacked.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you mean George Daniels?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did he hold office in any party, George Daniels?

ANSWER: He was the organising secretary of SAYCO.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON
EXAMINATION BY MS KHAMPEPE

<UNKNOWN>: : Is it Miss or Mrs Taje?

ANSWER: Mrs.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mrs Taje do you believe that Petrus Rolandswas an active member of the ANC Youth League in Kroonstad?

ANSWER: I don't believe so, I don't believe that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mrs Taje can you explain the reason why youdon't believe he was an active member of the Youth League here?

ANSWER: Because I was also a member of the ANC and Iknow the activists.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you know Senator Bloem very well?

ANSWER: I know him very well.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know all the members of his family?

ANSWER: I know them perfectly well I was schooling withsome of them.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you know Roland Petrus?

ANSWER: I don't know him at all.

<UNKNOWN>: : You have never seen him before he came to delivera letter at your house?

ANSWER: I saw him only when he brought the letter andI saw him that time only.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was that the only time you ever saw him?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Have you renounced your ANC membership, areyou no longer a member of the ANC?

ANSWER: I'm now a member of the ANC again.

<UNKNOWN>: : When last did you resign, when did you resignpreviously?

ANSWER: I never resigned I just stayed at home but whenthings went back to normal I took an initiative to join again.

<UNKNOWN>: : You mean in fact you have never resigned fromthe ANC but you have now become active in the activities?