Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

MR VISSER: Yes, that was the suggestion Mr Chairman, that we make a list of the incidents and then 
we will add to the incidents or under the incidents the names of those of our clients who are involved in 
them.   I think that is probably the way to go - or would you want us to make a list
of names and add the incidents to each name, because then it is going to be far too difficult?

JUDGE WILSON: No, your suggestion, but not only the names of your clients who are involved, 
but the names of the persons your clients allege were implicated.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is a second aspect which I think could be done, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: If it could be done.

MR VISSER: Yes, of course that list is for the eyes of the Committee only, clearly.

HASSAN MALL: To facilitate the work of the Committee.

MR VISSER: Oh, and His Lordship Mr Justice Wilson asked 
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MR VISSER: 100

<UNKNOWN>: me when this can be done, my attorney suggests that he can probably be ready with it by Thursday 
morning when we have to be here anyway.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, if he can, I will be very pleased.  And the list of names of persons 
involved, will be for our eyes, but we may make use of it in notifying people?

MR VISSER: Yes, that is the idea, as long as it is not for publication purposes, it is clearly just to assist 
you, yes.

HASSAN MALL: It is to facilitate the work of this Committee.

MR VISSER: Absolutely Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  May we proceed with the video?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before I show this video I just want to 
indicate to you the specific aspects that will be dealt with in the video itself.  
	The first incident that will be shown is the Church Street bomb, and the bomb in the Hallmark 
building in Pretoria.  
	The second part of the video which shows the
murder on the Niemand family in Pretoria.  Now that part of the video Mr Chairman, relates to normal 
violence that policemen are exposed to and that would be important for purposes of the evidence of the 
psychiatrist later on as well as to give the Committee a visual general background of what policemen in the 
normal course of their duties are exposed to.
	The third part of the video would entail pictures of murders etc, which were not politically 
motivated.
	The fourth part of the video shows the actions of crowds, necklaces, violences on innocent people 
and the 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 101

<UNKNOWN>: involvement of youths and activists in crowd behaviour.  This will have a political connotation.
	The fifth part will show provocation during crowd control, which will also be of political 
importance. 
	The sixth part of it relates to attacks on policemen in Mamelodi and Westonaria, and that is also 
important for purposes of the Zero hand grenade incident as the whole planning of that incident was borne 
out of specifically attacks on policemen.
	Then the next part would relate to attacks on civilians and deaths of civilians in political related 
incidents.  
	And the last part would show riots and burning of vehicles.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Du Plessis ...

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't want to interrupt you, but we are dealing with political related offences, we are 
not dealing with extenuating circumstances.  That is what the court would deal with.  As I've already 
indicated, what we see there, I don't regard it as evidence. Once it's confirmed by a witness under oath that 
may be a different position.  So really what the police are doing in the ordinary prevention of crime, I don't 
think that is very relevant to our task here and we don't want to be engaged in long hearings about 
irrelevant things here.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, the video is quite short.  I think it is approximately in total 
15 minutes.

HASSAN MALL: Well, let's proceed.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I just want to make clear I intend to call Captain Hechter 
thereafter to give evidence in general about what was shown and the fact that 
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GAUTENG: 102
he was exposed to similar kinds of incidents.  Obviously we don't have video footage of incidents where 
our clients were involved in to a large extent, but I will make the video relevant in evidence by way of 
calling Captain Hechter to testify about what was seen.

JUDGE MGOEPE: The Chairman said you could proceed.

ADV DU PLESSIS: May I proceed, thank you?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry, just a moment before you do that, I am not sure why you should proceed 
to show us pictures which deal with incidents which have nothing to do with political issues.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the reason for that is the following.  The psychiatric evidence which 
we will present to this Committee will deal specifically with the fact that policemen in the general course of 
their work became exposed and that is the case today as well, become exposed to extreme violence and 
extreme violent situations.
	That causes an acceptance by such policemen of violence to the extent that serious violence 
becomes something that is not so important to such a policemen as a normal person
in the street, it is a psychological process which at the end of the day makes such a person somebody who 
is prone to much easier or prone to acts of violence much easier because of the psychological situation he is 
subjected to.

HASSAN MALL: I don't want to interrupt you, but please understand at the end of the evidence I have no 
doubt you will be addressing us and you will be making the points that you are making now.  You are 
going to call psychiatric evidence and at the end of the that evidence you will tell us what the relevance of 
the evidence was at that stage.
So I don't think that there is any need for you to address PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 102
us on that aspect.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I just want to make this point as well 
and that is that this video was used at all educational facilities of the South African Police in courses that 
policemen underwent for training.

ADV DU PLESSIS: PLAYS THE SECOND VIDEO

CONTENTS OF THE SECOND VIDEO: (No audible communication)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, this part I am going to skip, that contains just further pictures of 
murder which are very gruesome.

SCREENING OF SECOND VIDEO CONTINUES: (No audible communication) ..."Dit is 22H40 op 4 
Desember 1990, te (onduidelik) waar daar vermoedelik vroeer vannaand 'n aanval op lede van die polisie 
was.  Om ongeveer 21h15 het mev Darron van oorkant die straat, 'n geweer vanaf die kragsentrale skote 
gehoor en onmiddellik Randfontein polisiestasie laat weet.  Op hulle beurt het hulle na bewering 'n voertuig 
uitgestuur hiernatoe en die toneel gevind soos dan nou ook op band vasgele.  Op die toneel vind
ons ook 'n (onduidelik) doppie wat reeds afgevuur is ..."

COMMMENTARY: The streets of the Coloured townships have been the scene of rioting.  This lorry was 
hijacked and set on fire across one of the main access roads into Athlone township.  Similar attacks 
occurred elsewhere while the police and the army have again been in action opening fire on demonstrators. 
Not only with shotguns but rifles, too.  Some Athlone residents have now started using guns themselves, a 
worrying development for the Security Forces.  	This evening a substantial force of police and 
troops poured into the Coloured townships around Cape Town.  
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GAUTENG: 103
Operation Clean up it is called aimed at restoring law and order.
	This is Graham Leach for the nine o'clock news in South Africa.