Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-10-24

WITNESS:  I don't remember quite well, besides that he was at Adams.  It was the year of the defence campaign and there was quite a little bit of unrest.   I was already married at that time, so that's how I don't know what was happening at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: When he finished at Adam's College, he went to be a clerk at the Home Affairs offices?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's where he started working.   That is where he became politically active, when people were being tortured and stripped of their dignity, he could fight the system.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is it correct that  that is when  he  started  being harassed, and he  started being looked after by the police, keeping surveillance on him?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that in 1950  he was  involved in quite many campaigns, especially  liberation  movement?  Do you still remember about that movement?

WITNESS:   About the potatoes?   There was a certain time where potatoes weren't being eaten, because there were certain irregularities and disagreements as far as potatoes were concerned, as well as ... (inaudible) ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember that Mzizi was one of the people who took people's signatures where they were organizing a freedom charter campaign in Izalbelweni(?)?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct, I do remember, but I was not actively involved.   He used to tell me and relate the stories to me whenever he had come to visit me, as well as my children.

CHAIRPERSON: You also remember that at the time there was a boycott of the bottle stores?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: When the women were assaulting and beating up people at the beerhalls, so that they wouldn't buy any liquor or drink any liquor?

WITNESS:   Yes, I still do remember that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: After the ANC had been banned, the ANC Youth League, do you still remember that Mzizi, your brother, as well as Fred Dube, and Mafozele(?) Mponya(?) went underground in Lamontville?

WITNESS:   I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are they now?

WITNESS:   Fred is in the United

CHAIRPERSON: States of America.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Mponya?

WITNESS:   I do not know where Mponya is, he came back, but I don't know his whereabouts at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still recall that in August 1963 Mzizi was arrested together with his other comrades?

WITNESS:   Yes, I was present at that time when they got arrested by the past regime.  I was expectant at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: You still remember some of the people who came to arrest him?

WITNESS:   I do not remember their names in particular, but there was one white man who was speaking Zulu just like me, but he did not tell me what his name was, he spoke very fluent Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did they stay?

WITNESS:   I don't remember quite well, because this is a long time since this incident took place, but he is the one who got a lighter sentence.   He was given one year imprisonment and others were taken to Robben Island, but he was taken to Kroonstad Prison.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time after his release from gaol, what came off from the arrest?

WITNESS:   His telephone  was bugged, and you  could hear  that there was  somebody  listening to the conversation whenever we were carrying conversation.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he harassed by the security branch?

WITNESS:   No, he was harassed but he was not disturbed because he could actually have contact with other comrades, but they were actually keeping surveillance on him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that Mzizi helped many people, as well as Mr Mxenge, the attorney?

WITNESS:   So that they would recruit the youth to go to Umkhonto we Sizwe. Now, that caused him to be harassed, that is where we are going to start, that is from 1979, tell us what happened and tell us what were the consequences as from 1979.   You can relate the story to us.   ---   In 1979, the community of Lamontville asked Mzizi that he should join the election, because they were electing councillors, and he did actually enter the elections but his name was not chosen, so consequently he was not elected.   And I remember at that time I was at home, he came and showed me a voter's roll.   And he further proceeded to tell me that in this voter's roll there is something that doesn't gel, that is not procedural and he needed to consult some legal people.   And he stayed for the whole night looking at this voter's roll, and he saw certain things that were unprocedural, that were not in accordance with the voting rules, and there were other family members, and in the voter's roll there were nine people which whom we didn't know and we didn't know where they came from.   And at that time he told me that he was going to contact some legal people, who would be able to advise them as to what should be done with this voter's roll.   He called some other members of the Lamontville community, and drew their attention to the faults that were in the voter's roll.   And this came was taken to court.  When he got to court he won the case.  Then the election had to be redone, that's when he got votes, and he was elected as a councillor.  That is where all this started, the harassment and the altercations that followed thereafter, but because he so dearly loved the community, especially the youth in Lamontville.   Whenever he had to help them, or he was

CHAIRPERSON: called upon to help, he would help.   And there were a certain people, when the  bus fares went up, and he was one of  the people  who was fighting  this, and they wanted the fares to be lowered.   Because the people in Lamontville did not have money and could not afford the fares going up.  He felt that whoever could afford taking a bus could do so, but the majority of the community in Lamontville was not able.

CHAIRPERSON: How did he help the women, as well as the mothers?

WITNESS:   The women, whose husbands had died, were also being assisted, because the then laws  required that if a man dies in the  house, the woman can no longer keep the house, and  the house  had to be  given away, and he fought against those rules to help the mothers keep their homes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that at the time in Durban it was very difficult to get a job, and people were being disallowed from staying in the urban areas and they were taken back to the rural areas.

WITNESS:   Yes, he also helped to do with away with this particular law.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, when Mzizi in Lamontville was doing whatever he was doing, was he being supported by the community as well as the leaders?

WITNESS:   That is where the whole thing started, because the community was now divided into half, some was very supportive of his actions, but some were not very supportive.   It was Mr Gasa.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us briefly about the relationship between Mr Gasa and your brother?

WITNESS:   At first Mr Gasa is the one who used to come home and ask him that they should work together and cooperate and when Mr Mzizi agreed with him, there were certain aspects on which they disagreed, but I am not sure what the aspects were, but I could see that  there was some problem erupting between the two.  And they could not work together properly.   And the situation  got quite  worse, at that time.   And I remember that  whenever I phoned  him, I couldn't get him at home, but on  this particular weekend, that is before he died, he  died on a Monday, the weekend before the Monday on  which he died, I was  talking to him and telling him that he must stop these actions.   He must stop being a councillor, because he was having problems with Gasa and there were rumours that he was going to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Even before we go or delve deeper into the situation, just tell us about what happened in 1982?

WITNESS:  I don't remember what happened in 1982, but there was a joint rent action committee.