Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

UNKNOWN: Yes.  And it's on the basis of this statement and the others, where he came to the conclusions that this was a legitimate attempt to arrest these people at a moving, moving as he calls it, moving roadblock and that the police acted properly under the circumstances?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson, all these things that were mentioned there are false.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Moerane, if I could just ask surrounding this statement.
	Mr Flores, Big van Wyk, did he have a consultation with you before he prepared this statement and before it was presented to you for signing, or was it just presented to you as a fait accompli which you had to sign?  Because there's certain information like:
"I fired 20 rounds from my 30 round R1 magazine."

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Mr Chairperson, small things like the rounds that's just been mentioned are true because that came from when they did the reconstruction.  We had to point out where we stood etc., etc, but the fabrications like the blue light that I've just been questioned about, that is all false.  The statement - I can't recall being, because at that stage what I can specifically remember is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't a question of you sitting down with Brig van Wyk and then him in his longhand writing out the statement which he sent to the typing pool for typing and it came back later and you knew what was in it before you actually signed it?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Not at all, this was delivered by my house,  I was on leave at that stage.  I just signed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Moerane?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	In fact a shooting incident report had already been compiled much much earlier, the previous year, by I think it was Colonel or Lt Human, wherein the number of shots that each of the people fired was included.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Excuse me, can you just repeat please.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct that to your knowledge, after any shooting incident "'n skiet voorval" report is completed by an officer?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  And what I'm saying is that with regard to both incidents, such reports were compile.  In the first incident it was Lt Combrink who did that and in the second incident it was a Lt Human who did that.  It's amongst the many documents here before us.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: If you state it as such I would agree with you, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  And in these reports the people who were involved in the shooting are mentioned, the type of firearms that they had are mentioned, the number of bullets or ammunition that they had is mentioned and the number that they fired is also mentioned, but of course in both incidents the reports were false.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And it's possible that Brig van Wyk obtained the information about the number of shots you had fired, from that shooting incident report.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Mr Flores, were you at the reconstruction?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: On the second incident, yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just on that, were there other members from C1 present at that reconstruction?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: If I can recall I think everyone that was part of this incident was there, they could just help me when they testify, but I'm sure they were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Even Mr de Kock?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I can't recall if only a group was sent down, I speak under correction there.  It could be that he was there, but I can't directly place Col de Kock there.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Another problem that I have is the identity of the kombi.  I see in your statement you say it was a white E20 kombi, which is a Nissan.  Do you recall the make of the kombi?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Chairperson, I said E20.  I was under the impression that a Hi-Ace and an E20 was the same thing.

UNKNOWN: Well the one is a Nissan, the other is a Toyota.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I did not know that, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're just referring to it almost as a generic name, like a kombi is a minibus?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: You say you were a junior member of C1 at the time.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And you say you've carried out instructions, you asked no questions.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Did anyone tell you that yours was to carry out instructions and ask no questions?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Not directly told to me, but from the policy we accepted it as such and assumed it.

UNKNOWN: You say C1 was a covert counter-insurgency unit.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, I mentioned it as such.

UNKNOWN: Was it that?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is how I experienced it, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Was it meant to be that?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I believe so, yes, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And for how long were you with C1?  I think you have mentioned it in your statement.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I believe two years, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And what were the years?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: '87 to the beginning 1990, the end of 1989.

UNKNOWN: And then you joined what you referred to as a Directorate of Covert Operation of Military Intelligence.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: That's not the correct name of that, is it?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No, no.

UNKNOWN: I think it's Directorate of ...(intervention)

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Directorate of Covert Collection.

UNKNOWN: ... Covert Collection, yes.  Have you applied for amnesty with regard to your escapade to the United Kingdom, with Bamala Durandt?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I have, Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: I see.  I won't ask you about that.  Who actually told you in effect, that you could shoot at people rather than arrest them, even if there is an opportunity to arrest them?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Nobody put it to me as such, Chairperson.  During that time, as the people know today, C1 was an operational unit and if you rendered service there it was accepted that that is how one acts operationally with regard to the ANC and the PAC.

UNKNOWN: Is your evidence that whilst you were a member of C1 you engaged in a series of unlawful actions, such as murdering people?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: During that time we did not believe that we acted illegally or that our actions were illegal.  If we look back in hindsight, then you can put it as such, that it was illegal.

CHAIRPERSON: But then it - just arising out of that, Mr Flores, if you did not believe you were acting illegally, then what's the point in covering up?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Sorry, I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I say if the feeling was that you were not acting illegally, if that was what the members were of the view, why then have cover-up operations, why make false statements, why put weapons in people's hands when they weren't there, that sort of thing?  If you were of the view that it was legal, there would surely be no point to cover up an operation.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Sorry, I think - let me rephrase it, Mr Chairperson.  Yes, we did do illegal things, that's why we covered it up and we thought we're doing the right thing at that stage, although it was illegal we knew it.  I don't know if I'm expressing it the right way.

UNKNOWN: I can appreciate your difficulty because you must have known that it was illegal to kill a defenceless person.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And you must have known that it was illegal to set up an ambush whose intention and whose idea and whose purpose and objective, was to kill rather than arrest them.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.