Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what he says at page 70, paragraph 4.2
"The political structures were the senior men and the youth.  The political structures had nothing to do with the management structure in the hostel"
4.3
"The youth was responsible for the organisation of rallies whilst the senior structure was responsible for discipline within the IFP party as well a decision making that relates to the IFP within the hostel"
4.4		"The steering committee was ultimately responsible to Iscor.  The structure I was the leader of was called Amabutho and in that capacity I was the leader of the IFP in the hostel"
You never knew that, is that your evidence?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I didn't know that.

MR BERGER: According to you, who was the leader of the IFP in the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Vanana Zulu.

MR BERGER: As far as you knew, Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize held no position of leadership in the hostel at all?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: And yet according to you he was one of two people who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong.  How is that possible Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: That is possible because our own people were dying, he too may have said that we should go out and attack.

MR BERGER: Who made the decision to attack Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: I can explain here that decisions were taken by each one person who had already suffered, any Kwamadala Resident.  They knew how people were being necklaced and there had come a time to show the people of Boipatong that we too were human just like them and we could not stand aloof as our people were being necklaced.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, who made the decision to attack this Vaal community?

MR MTHEMBU: It was Mr Chonco.

MR BERGER: At page 19 you were asked the question, paragraph 17.1
"Who made the decision to attack a Vaal community"?
Your answer, page 29, paragraph 17.1:
"To my best knowledge Mr Vanana Zulu and Mkhize made the decision to attack the Vaal community"

MR MTHEMBU: You are talking about something else here, you are talking about the Vaal community, you're not talking about the Boipatong matter anymore.

MR BERGER: Which decision are you referring to here?

MR MTHEMBU: Here I am referring to - you asked me as to who took the decisions to attack the people in Boipatong and I explained to you and I really don't know how else you want me to explain here.

MR BERGER: You say that this answer at page 29 relates to another decision, not the decision to attack Boipatong.  I'm asking you which decision is this now that you are referring to?

MR MTHEMBU: Here I am referring to the decision to attack Boipatong.

MR BERGER: I'm talking about paragraph 17.1 where you say
"To my best knowledge, Mr Vanana Zulu and Mkhize made the decision to attack the Vaal community"
Let me ask you this question then, that decision that you are referring to in 17.1, when was it taken?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I think in fairness to the witness please do point out that the response that occurs at the pages that you've drawn his attention to are in response to questions which occurs on page 19.

MR BERGER: I've done that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  17.1 deals with the Vaal community.  17.2 deals with the Vaal community and then 17.3 then deals with Boipatong and then if you look at 17.3 he says in his statement
"Mkhize became angry and agreed with Mr Chonco to attack the residents of Boipatong"

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's how I understood his evidence so far, that the decision to attack Boipatong was taken by Chonco and Mkhize.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the question in 17.1 is
"Who made the decision to attack a Vaal community"?

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know whether we can take the matter any further that this because it becomes clear here that a distinction is being made as to took the decision to attack which part.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Mthembu, maybe you can just help us here.  A question was asked of you in the request for further particulars, referring to a Vaal community, you understand that, not the Vaal community, a specific Vaal community.  Which community did you understand you were replying to when you gave your lawyers instructions to answer that question?

MR MTHEMBU: Here I was explaining about incidents that happened in the Vaal community, Boipatong included, Sebokeng included.  When we're talking about the Vaal community I think we are talking about the community in that area.

MR LAX: Mr Berger's question is then to you, if you thought it was a general meeting at which a decision was taken to attack the Vaal community in general terms, when was that meeting?  That is what he's asking you.  It's not a meeting to attack Boipatong, it's a meeting to attack in general terms and you give a specific answer and he wants to know - and it will help us a great deal if you can help us, when was that meeting?  Which is different from the Boipatong specific meeting, on your evidence so far.  Can you help us there perhaps?

MR MTHEMBU: I do not have knowledge about that meeting Sir.

MR BERGER: Well then why do you say
"To my best knowledge, Mr Vanana Zulu and Mkhize made the decision to attack the Vaal community"

MR MTHEMBU: I am saying this because there were people who were older than us, that is at the hostel, and if they too had come to realise that it is enough, the pain is enough it was therefore upon themselves too to indicate that we should attack the people who were killing our people.

MR BERGER: So your leaders, am I right then, your leaders in the hostel took a decision at some time before the Boipatong attack, took a decision in general terms: "We are now going to launch attacks on the Vaal community, be it Sebokeng, Boipatong, Sharpeville, wherever.  In general, we are now going to launch attacks, the leaders decided that", correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Even though I did not hear them decide but everybody who was a resident at Kwamadala Hostel had already suffered a lot of harassment from the people or by the people at the Vaal community or of the Vaal community.

MR BERGER: But you see Mr Mthembu, when you were asked a question and you understood that question meant a decision to attack the Vaal community, you identified two people, Vanana Zulu and Mkhize as being the people who took that decision.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: My question to you is, why did you identify those two people?

MR MTHEMBU: I am explaining this because Mr Zulu was in charge of us at the hostel and every hostel resident had grown tired of what was happening to them..

MR BERGER: You see Mr Mthembu it's really very simple, and I don't know why you don't want to say this, but if Mr Mkhize was not a leader why did you mention him in paragraph 17.1?

MR MTHEMBU: I am referring to him here because he too was a resident at the hostel and he too was suffering the same pain at the hands of the township residents.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not present when the decision to attack a Vaal community or the Vaal community was taken.

MR MTHEMBU: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know who took that decision but you assumed that is must have been the senior people?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were in the position of leadership?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, Mkhize must have been a leader, he was a leader of what?

MR MTHEMBU: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: He was a leader of what?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Berger is reading here that he was a leader of Amabutho.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's the assumption you made.

MR MTHEMBU: What I am saying here is because Mr Berger had just read to me from Mkhize's statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that but all I want to find out is this, the answer that you gave suggests that you were assuming that a decision to attack the Vaal community must have been taken by persons who were in a leadership position.  You do say
"To the best of your knowledge"