Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-26

THOMAS MANTHATA: We have listened to your evidence.  You have tried your best really.  Your emotions fit exactly the initiatives you took.  What was the reason behind the inquest they wanted in court? Were they telling you that they would investigate what killed him or didn't they know his whereabouts?  What was actually happening?  Did they want to give you a death certificate so that you may forget?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: I think it was their plan that the Attorney-General should release a statement and maybe they thought that I would not be able to speak and then they would shift the blame.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Is Viljoen still employed within the police services?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: The information that I have got was that he was discharged from the police services.  But rumours had it that he is still working.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But is he still employed as a police, is he still around in your area, in Klerksdorp?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: Viljoen resides in Potchefstroom. I heard that he resides at Modderdam.  When you are taking the Johannesburg road, there is a cross road.  Then you will take the Potchefstroom road and along the way you will see a sign Modderdam, that is where he stays.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Are you referring to Viljoen?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What about April?
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JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: Together with Mr Celesela we went to April's house for an interview.  I took initiatives on many occasions to go to his house, to beg him to tell us a bit of information that he had.  Because we knew in the past he wouldn't say anything.  As a policeman he wouldn't leak out information.  Then we decided to go to his house to beg him to give us a little piece of information.  The first thing he told me was, he said today I am in trouble.  This was not done in camera, we didn't even have secret tape-recorders.  He said to us there is a man in the Cape who wanted to tell the truth and he died, and today, as April, I am in a pool of problems. The people like Viljoen are far from me now.  And he told me that that was my last time to set foot in hvs house.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Was it April?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: Yes, that was April.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Is he still in Klerksdorp?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: Yes, he is still stays in Klerksdorp.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I don't have further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Prof Piet Meiring?

PROF MEIRING: You said that there are three children of your son.  How old are they?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: The boy who is staying with me, approximately he is 16 years.

PROF MEIRING: And the other two?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: The other two I am not able to say, but they might be around, around 12 years or 13 years, and the other one between 11 and 12.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you.  The other two, are they staying with their mother?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: Yes, the other two they are staying with their
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mother.  This elder one he was taken by, he was married by a certain lady from Carletonville.  Then they divorced and then this son used to stay at my place. When the grandfather died then this son came to me.  So the father, when he left, when the father was arrested.  So the son was eight years, eight years old.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.  We have the picture now.  Thank you, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Fazel Randera?

DR RANDERA: Mr Thlapi, I am sure this is a very painful experience for you to be relating to us, and I will try to make it as short as possible. I just want to know, you said when you went to Stilfontein police station with Mr Strauss, they read out the names of nine people, and they were all from Itateng. You have the names of those people?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: The question is, do I know the names of the people?  Yes, I have the names of those people.

DR RANDERA: We thank you for that. I just want to again clarify names of people you mentioned. You mentioned Mr Sitish Rupa and Mr Ichbal Motala, whom I know are from this region.  You mentioned Mr Krish Naidoo as another lawyer.  You mention Sally Celi from the Independent board, who again is working elsewhere.  We will be following up from her.  I just want the name of the magistrate. Do you remember the name of the magistrate?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: I don't remember the surname of the magistrate who was handling the case.  The person who would know is Mr Motala.

DR RANDERA: You also said that the magistrate was referring the inquest report to the Attorney-General's office.  Which office was that, the Johannesburg one or the Pretoria one,
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do you know?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: According to my lawyers, they told me the papers go to the Attorney-General.  They didn't tell me which town is that, if it is Johannesburg or Pretoria, I am not sure.  I was just waiting to hear from the lawyer to say that the papers have come, the answer has come, it says this and that.

DR RANDERA: Mr Thlapi, there are two more questions.  The one is just for you, to tell us something about, I think you referred to him as Boytjie, if I can also call him Boytjie Thlapi.  How involved was he in the political structures in Ikageng at that time?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: This person was very quiet and always at home.  I only realised as a father that when the police were telling us to reprimand our children, you would reprimand in the house and the child would not make the father aware that what he is doing outside.  On the 20th when they were arrested, the younger brother, when we heard that Boytjie has been arrested, is when they arrived at home.  Then they went to his books.  They were taking the other books, they were taking them, there was a plank which the one used to polish. He drew a fisted hand and he used to varnish that. I didn't know what the meaning of that hand was. I only realised later that this man was something or something in the political organisation.

DR RANDERA: The last question is, you said earlier on when you were talking to Mr Manthata that when George was released - George was one of the men who was arrested with your son, he said to you that he was released because he indicated where the petrol bombs were.  Did I hear you rightly?
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JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: George has said that the entrance, the room where he was electrocuted, there were petrol bombs put in that room.

DR RANDERA: Oh, sorry, my mistake.  Thank you very much.