Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-07

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon?

MR VAN ZYL: 111 is the one that I've got.

MR VALLY: That's correct, it's 111.  Do you have it in front of you?

DR MIJBURGH: Not yet.  What are the page numbers?

MR VALLY: The page I'm referring to specifically is B12.  This is off TRC111.  It's the tables at the back of it.

DR MIJBURGH: On my list of documentation I don't see a TRC111, it's not part of the documentation that I received or at least I don't see it.

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, I think this is a document that was handed in at a later during the proceedings.  I do not have a copy of it either.  If we can just ensure, I do not know whether the witness was informed about this previously.

MR VALLY: The document was given to the attorneys of Doctor Mijburgh.  There's only one small aspect that I want to raise there.

MR VAN ZYL: If I remember correctly it was during General Neethling's testimony that this document was handed in.  It was not given to this witness as part of the documentation beforehand.  We got a copy of this but we did not know that it had specific reference to this witness.  It was not part of the documents that was given to him together with his subpoena.

MR VALLY: The question is very simple.  The attorneys have had this documentation.  I accept it was for the purposes of representing a different client, General Neethling but the question is very simple, it doesn't require intensive research to answer it.  I want to put one line of the table on page B12 to this witness Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to be able to reply to that question if he doesn't know what is on B12?

MR VALLY: His attorneys have a copy of it in front them.

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, we do have a copy.  I don't want to prevent my learned friend from asking the question, I just wanted to make it clear that the witness didn't have it beforehand but he can now ask the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.
 If you look at page B12 and the column which is headed: 
"Information by Sources"
Do you see the table I'm looking at?  The very last sentence of that particular table: 
"Wouter Basson also offered 100 000 mandrax tablets for one year"

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: Do you have any knowledge of that?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the allegation contained therein?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Were you ever questioned about this allegation?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Did General Knobel ever raise this issue with you?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: Thanks, that's all with reference to that document Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Now as a military front company, and I'm talking about Delta-G here, who did you get instructions from?

DR MIJBURGH: From the Project Officer, Doctor Basson.

MR VALLY: Was he the only person you got instructions from?

DR MIJBURGH: Most of the time, yes.  I think instructions were also given by the Surgeon General.  I cannot give you specific examples.  I think most of our contact was with Doctor Basson.

MR VALLY: Would you not have remembered if you got instructions from the Surgeon General?

DR MIJBURGH: If say instructions, it would possibly have been an approval of a budget which would have been done on the level.  I cannot remind myself or remember a specific instruction from him.

MR VALLY: So you say that you have a front company with a number of people under your control as Managing Director, you knew it was a military front company but except for Doctor Basson, the only other dealings you had were with the Surgeon General who talked to you about issues like salary raises or budgets, I beg your pardon.

DR MIJBURGH: No, it was with the Committee, the so-called CMC.

MR VALLY: And when you say: "van tyd tot tyd", how often is this?

DR MIJBURGH: Very irregularly, two to three times a year perhaps on a quarterly basis perhaps.

MR VALLY: So there was no real control over your company, Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: There was absolute control in terms of the financial control.

MR VALLY: So the control that was exercised was financial control?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: And that is an issue that you were on top of?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: That you fully understood the financial position?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so, yes.

MR VALLY: But you can't explain to us why the company was changed to Data Image?

DR MIJBURGH: It was not Delta-G, it was another company.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, I accept that.  Because I want to come back to Medchem just now.  One of the major things you did there was manufacturing of CR gas at Delta-G, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: Was this for internal use or external use?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know what it was used for, it was done on order for the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: We understand that it was also made available for riot control purposes, do you have any knowledge of that?

DR MIJBURGH: As far as I know it was used by the police as well, yes.

MR VALLY: Doctor Koekemoer said that he believed it should not be used internally because it remained in the environment for a period of up to 5 years, are you aware of that?

DR MIJBURGH: I do not know if it takes such a long time to remove all traces.  I'm not trained in that field but it is, yes.

MR VALLY: What form did you manufacture CR gas in?

DR MIJBURGH: We supplied powder to the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Other than being responsible for the budget and the finances of Delta-G, what other responsibilities did you have at Delta-G?

DR MIJBURGH: I was the General Manager of the company.

MR VALLY: You said you had no technical and manufacturing details, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I did not say that.

MR VALLY: Did you have knowledge of technical and manufacturing details?

DR MIJBURGH: Overall yes, I knew which products were manufactured and I know which projects were undertaken.  The technical detail thereof I did not necessarily know about but I knew more or less what it was about.

MR VALLY: You weren't aware of technical details such as delivery of items?

DR MIJBURGH: I would not necessarily have been involved in the delivery of that, no.

MR VALLY: We you know that Doctor Wouter Basson travelled extensively, when Doctor Wouter Basson was not there to give you instructions, who did you get instructions from?

DR MIJBURGH: I did not receive instructions on a daily basis.

MR VALLY: You are a military front company, I would assume the military is in charge, ultimately the military is in control over you?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: You know the Project Officer was Doctor Basson?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: You know the Project Manager was the Surgeon General, General Knobel?

DR MIJBURGH: As you advised me, yes.

MR VALLY: You weren't aware of it before?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes, but the term of calling him the Project Manager, for me it's about the term.  Yes, the project fell under the control of the Surgeon General.

MR VALLY: Fine.  Other than Doctor Basson, did you ever receive instructions from anyone else, the Surgeon General, General Neethling, anyone else?

DR MIJBURGH: General Neethling played no role in the control and management of the company, it was the CMC whose members I cannot recall.  I cannot say that I received a specific instruction from any one of them.  I reported to them from time to time.

MR VALLY: We've been told that close to 95% of the work that was done was done for the military, approximately 5% was private work, would you agree with that estimate?

DR MIJBURGH: In the early days of the company, yes,  later the relationship changed.

MR VALLY: "Early days" you're meaning from 1985 to when?

DR MIJBURGH: I would say to about '87/'88.  95%/5% I cannot say or differ from you, I have no figures to prove t his at the moment.

MR VALLY: What precisely was the role of the Surgeon General regarding Delta-G?  How did he exercise control over you?