Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-08

CHAIRPERSON: (Incomplete) ... based in this region;  Mdu Dlamini, a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee in this region;  Dr Mapule Ramashala, Commissioner and member of the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee based in the Western Cape;  Dr Khoza Mgojo, Commissioner, member of the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee based in this region;  Richard Lyster, Commissioner, member of the Human Rights Violations Committee, and co-ordinator of our Durban office, and obviously based here;  and then Dr Alex Boraine, Deputy-Chairperson of the Commission, and a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee.  Now I do hand over to him.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Chairperson.  The first witnesses in today's session are Patricia and Philip Quinn, and we invite them to come to the witness stand.  I understand that they will be joined by Jane Quinn as well.  I would like to extend a very warm word of welcome to the Quinn family.  Are you all able to hear?

MR QUINN: Thank you, yes.

DR BORAINE: You won't really need the headphones.  I was going to start in Zulu, but I'll stick to English if it's all right with you.  It's always more difficult for the first witnesses of a day to come forward.  It's nervous-making.  I hope you will feel as relaxed as is possible under the circumstances.  We are very grateful to you that you are willing to share something of your own pain and memory with the Commission, with those who have gathered here today, and of course with people throughout the country and beyond.  You are going to tell us about the death of Jacqueline Quinn, your daughter and sister, in 1985 in a cross-border raid into Lesotho.  In a moment you will be able to tell your own story, and so that I can get clarity I'd be very grateful if I could know who will be speaking, so that we can have the swearing-in.

MS QUINN: We're all going to be speaking, but my father's going to ... (inaudible)

DR BORAINE: Well then, to make matters easier why don't we swear you all in one by one, and then you can decide as you go along.

MRS QUINN: I wonder if I may ask my son to come up and sit with my daughter?

DR BORAINE: Of course.  Mr Quinn, would you like to join your family?

MRS QUINN: Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: All right.  I think that we, as a Commission, have found it particularly helpful when members of families, friends, come along.  It's very heartening and strengthening, and thank you for doing that.  So, Mrs Quinn, if you would stand then for the taking of the oath.  This does not mean that you are compelled to speak later, but it means that if you do you are under oath.

PATRICIA QUINN, PHILIP QUINN AND JANE QUINN: (Sworn, State)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Please be seated.  I think by now it is fairly well known that in every instance, whilst not trying to put words into people's mouths, and allowing people to tell their own stories, we have found it helpful if a Commissioner or committee member guides the witness, asks the relevant questions, and then it is thrown open to the entire Commission.  I say this now so that all of those who will be coming forward will have some idea of how we go about it.  And I am going to ask my colleague, Richard Lyster, if he will take over from me now.  Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Thank you all very much for coming in today.  At least six of the people who came to give evidence yesterday lost members of their family, and I think most of them in fact lost children, so we have some understanding of the tragedy and sorrow that that means for parents, so we have some way of understanding what you have been through.  Could you start off, whichever one of you chooses to do so - Mr Quinn - just to give us a little background on your family and on who Jacqueline was, just to enable us to have a picture before you tell us ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:  Well, Jacqueline was our second daughter, born in 1955, and she'd done extremely well.  She'd been head girl of her school, and thereafter went to Cape Town University, where she took a BA in languages, I think majoring in Sotho.  And then she worked as a teacher up in Lesotho, and then eventually got married to Joe, who we later found out was Leon Meyer(?).  We didn't know at the time she did that, I think for security reasons.  I think she realised that they were under threat.  Anyway, we went to go for Phoenix's first birthday.

MR LYSTER: Sorry, Phoenix was their daughter?

WITNESS:   Phoenix was their daughter, yes.

MR LYSTER: And they lived in Maseru, did they?

WITNESS:   They lived in Maseru, yes.  So we left Mooi River on that morning and went to Maseru, stayed at the local hotel.  What was the hotel's name?  I can't remember.  Whatever, a hotel in Maseru.  And Jackie wasn't there to meet us, and we waited and waited, and eventually some friend came and told us that Jackie and Joe, or Leon, had been shot the previous evening.  The first thing was that - we assumed it was the neighbours.  They had told us that Joe had said "It's the Boere," or something.  That's all that he managed to get out of them before he passed out or died, and that was - so we naturally assumed it was a hit squad from South Africa.

MR LYSTER: And was Joe a member of the ANC in Maseru?

WITNESS:   Joe, as we discovered afterwards, was a member of the ANC, and I presume Jackie, sort of ipso facto, the fact that she was married to him, Joe would have - she wasn't a paid up  member of the ANC though.

MR LYSTER: And that's how you came to get the information of your daughter's death?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LYSTER: You were told by somebody who came to the hotel?

WITNESS:   A friend of the family's came to the hotel and told me.  We had been waiting for hours and wondering where she was.  Nobody had told us.  They must have known at the border post, and I assume at the hotel, but nobody had given us any indication at that stage.

MR LYSTER: And were you then called on to go and identify the body, or to ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LYSTER: Could you tell us something about ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   It was locked in the mortuary.  We went along to the mortuary and then - oh yes, we met Debbie there and we had to wait.  I can't remember now.  It's about 10 years ago -trying to remember all the details in order.  But our daughter, Debbie, came and we were eventually taken to the mortuary to go and identify her.  I can't remember the sequence of events.  Would you like to carry on?  Perhaps my wife could carry on.  I can't remember the sequence of events exactly.

MR LYSTER: Could you speak into the microphone so that the audience can hear you?

WITNESS:   Debbie met us at the hotel. They had heard - the children had heard before we knew, and ... (incomplete)

MR LYSTER: Please take your time, Mrs Quinn.

WITNESS:   It's okay.  Thank you.  And she had already been to see Phoenix in the hospital.  The headmaster of the local school looked after us, who was wonderful.  Everybody was very good to us, and found us a place to live for the next few days.  And the next morning, I think, we were taken to the mortuary to identify Jackie.  And the hospital had been looking after Phoenix.  They were very good, because we didn't know whether she was safe or not, and eventually they could see by Phoenix's reaction to Debbie that she knew us, and they gave us Phoenix.

MR LYSTER: How old was Phoenix at that time?

WITNESS:   She was a year and two days.

MR LYSTER: And she was present when both her parents were killed?

WITNESS:   Yes, and she was found in her cot.  She had a bruise, but nobody knows how.  And the next-door neighbours were frightened to go in, I think, for a while, but then everybody looked after her and after us.

MR LYSTER: And was she buried in Lesotho?  Do you want to tell us something about that?