Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Chair for clarifying that.  Mr Sithole what I'm saying is that the position was that when there were problems you were able to approach one another, you were able to sit down together and resolve the issue by discussing the matter.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now the person that you will normally discuss it with is the late Mr ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: May the speaker be please audible.

AZHAR CACHALIA: My apologies.  The persons that would normally meet in this matter would be at that time the chairperson of the ANC, Mr, the late Mr Dastile, his brother Sandisile who is sitting next to me, and other members of the ANC together with you on the other side and Mr Magwaza.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't hear that quite clear.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Well perhaps, do you want me to repeat the question sir?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I did not hear.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I am saying that when you had a problem in Zevenfontein before this week in February, the matter would be resolved by you and Magwaza and Sandisile Dastile and the late Mr Dastile meeting and discussing issues and the matters would be resolved.  You would arrange to meet and sort out the problems that you had.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it's correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I am saying on this, that was the purpose for meeting on Friday at, sorry on Saturday at five o'clock in the evening.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm getting a bit lost now Mr Cachalia.  I thought that meeting, oh so that meeting for Saturday was just a meeting of the four, it wasn't a community meeting, as mass meeting as such?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Not according to my instructions, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was to take place on the soccer field, just the four of them?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry my apologies sir, may I put the question to him?  Who was supposed to meet on the soccer field at five o'clock on Saturday?

MR SITHOLE: All the people.

AZHAR CACHALIA: May I just put it to you so that we have this in perspective, the IFP's offices was an enclosed area of the soccer field.  A little area that was just partitioned off from the rest of the soccer field.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, it was right close.

AZHAR CACHALIA: In fact it was, it didn't even have a roof over it.  It was just an enclosure that was just partitioned off without even a roof.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that is right.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now is that where you were supposed to meet?

MR SITHOLE: We were going to meet at the soccer field.

AZHAR CACHALIA: If the committee will bear with me for a moment.  Thank you.  Mr Sithole, sorry, in your application form you say that the meeting was to take place at 14h00.  That obviously is incorrect.  At two o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Just refer us to the page and the paragraph number just for easy reference please.

MR CLAASSEN: I think it's page 27 Mr Chair.

AZHAR CACHALIA: On page 27, paragraph 3,7 sir.

MR SITHOLE: No I dispute the fact that the meeting would have taken place at two.  I don't think I said that.  What page is it?

MR LAX: Page 27.  Paragraph 3.7.  It does in fact say that Mr Sithole, in your affidavit.  I'll read you this passage just so you can be clear
"...The leaders and I, we agreed to have a meeting, on the 12th of February at 14h00."
That's two o'clock.
"...at the sports field, to discuss the problems in the community."

MR SITHOLE: Maybe I don't remember the time, whether I said that or not.  I don't quite remember.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What I am putting to you Mr Sithole, is that although you have said so in your affidavit, and you have signed it, that is obviously incorrect.  Isn't that so?

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair if I may I think he just answered that.  He said it might be, he's just not sure, he can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: What can't you remember Mr Sithole?  That you said that it was 14h00 or that the meeting was meant to be at five o'clock.

MR SITHOLE: Maybe as a result of this prolonged evidence I've tendered here maybe I tend to have forgotten what I said earlier.

MR LAX: What is your position now, do you accept, can you remember, was the meeting meant to be at five o'clock on Saturday or at two o'clock?

MR SITHOLE: I think have forgotten.  I do not know as to what time this meeting was supposed to have taken place.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I put it to you Mr Sithole that it was fact arranged that you would meet at five o'clock at the sports field.

MR SITHOLE: I don't refute that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That's how I understood the position to be, but it is quite coincidental that on page 72, paragraph 9.1 Mr Magwaza makes the same mistake.  He also says it was at two o'clock.  Do you wish to comment about that?

MR SITHOLE: I don't dispute any of that, whether I did that or not.  Well I'll attribute that to the fact that I've forgotten.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Let me put to you Mr Sithole that whether it was at two o'clock or five o'clock that meeting in fact never took place.  Am I to accept that the meeting didn't take place because there was the rain, very heavy rain on that day?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, you may as well accept that because of the rain the meeting did not take place.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole, Mr Dastile and other will say that it had in fact stopped raining and if you wanted to you could have held the meeting on that particular day.

MR SITHOLE: There was no-one at the soccer field since it was raining.

AZHAR CACHALIA: At the time of the shooting, the members of the IFP, where were they, on the soccer field, or where were they?  Just immediately prior to the shooting.

MR SITHOLE: They were at the soccer field right next to the garbage truck.  They were coming from Magwaza's shack.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And that's where the ANC was supposed to meet you, is that right?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that's where we were supposed to have met.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And the late Mr Dastile in fact came and stood awaiting to be acknowledged by your group and he waited there for some time and nobody acknowledge him.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Mr Dastile the deceased, or?

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is so, sir.

MR SITHOLE: No he did not show up.  It was myself who initiated to ask them if they were coming to approach us based on the argument or on what we heard earlier on.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Who did you approach, Mr Sithole?

MR SITHOLE: I was saying to all of them, the ANC people that is, and they were all standing armed with the spears, and as soon as I said that they said you are still going on talking, and they started assaulting.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Assaulting you?  Did they assault you?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, assaulted me.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Unless I have misread the documents, I don't think anywhere in your documents you ever talked about you being assaulted.

ADV SIGODI: May I just come in here?  He did mention in his evidence-in-chief that as they were coming to him he asked them why, in fact he said to ...(Zulu words).  I don't think it was interpreted as strictly as assault by our interpreter, but as I was listening to the Zulu version he did mention that he asked them why they were beating him, in his evidence-in-chief.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you lady, I have no problem with the evidence that he gave, I'm saying that in the documentation that he had provided there is no indication that he or anybody else of the IFP were ever assaulted.

MR LAX: How were you assaulted Mr Sithole?

MR SITHOLE: They stoned me and they shot as well, at me.

MR LAX: Were you injured by bullets?

MR SITHOLE: No, I was not injured, because as soon as I heard the gunshots I took cover.  I fell on the ground.