Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR RICHARD: I beg pardon, did you go to the base or did they go to the base?

MR DUBE: What happened, we parted ways, I left because I was no residing there as I had mentioned earlier on.

MR RICHARD: So who went to the base?

MR DUBE: I don't know, they will explain themselves, those two, where they went.

MR RICHARD: Where did you go to?

MR DUBE: I was staying in Diepkloof.

MR RICHARD: Where in Diepkloof.

MR DUBE: In Zone 4.

MR RICHARD: What time did you get there?

MR DUBE: It was at night, I don't quite remember the time.  I did not pay attention to the time.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you get there?

MR DUBE: I went in a taxi.

MR RICHARD: So, how long does it take to get there?  Half an hour, an hour, quarter of an hour?

MR DUBE: It depends how fast the taxi will be because the taxi as you all know has many stops, it keeps stopping, so it's a bit difficult for me to estimate as to how long it took to get me there.

MR RICHARD: Sir, I'm trying to establish some sort of time line, some sort of chronology of, we know that there was this report around midnight.  We also have another report that at about 10 o'clock a shot was heard in that vicinity.  Would you dispute the shooting happened around 10 o'clock?

MR DUBE: As I have said earlier on that I'm not sure of that, I am not in a position to dispute.  I will not dispute that.  I am not sure, as I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say it took place between nine and ten, isn't that what you?

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR RICHARD: While he was with you, the deceased, did you do anything else besides talk to him?

MR DUBE: Shooting, for instance.

MR RICHARD: At about quarter past seven sometime there you met up, according to your version, with Sicelo Dhlomo.  Sometime between nine and ten he was shot.  That's the evidence so far.  Now, during that period, other than talk to him, did you do anything else?  Did you go anywhere?  Did you eat a meal?

MR DUBE: There's nothing else we did except for what I've accounted for.

MR RICHARD: Because if I go through the post mortem report and I go to page 53 paragraph 17, there the examination reveals that the stomach contains undigested food.  Now, if I put it to you that that is consistent only with the person being shot within at most an hour of eating, that's what the scientific evidence would be, what would your comment be?

MR DUBE: What I would say is that as you said that besides talking to him what else did we do, I told you we shot him, so that I will not furnish any answer in with regards to your question.

MR RICHARD: So that means you stand by your answer that you spoke to him for two hours before shooting him, between seven and nine?

MR DUBE: What I said, I stand by it, and I maintain strongly what I've told you.

MR RICHARD: So even if it means it's established that he was shot much earlier in the evening, you would stand by your evidence.  Fine I'll move to the next point.  Now if we go to paragraph 13, there they say there are subdural haemorrhages of the upper lobes and a sub inter-cardial haemorrhage in the left ventricle.  Now, after you shot him how long did you stand around the body?

MR DUBE: I did not stand next to the body for a long time.  I think a minute, one minute was enough.

MR RICHARD: And did the deceased die instantly?

MR DUBE: I'm not sure about that.  But the way he dropped down displayed the fact that he was dead.

MR RICHARD: Because the answers and findings in paragraph 13 and 14 of the post mortem indicate that he took a long time to die.  Those are consistent with what they call stress and trauma.

MR DUBE: That I don't know, as I said.

MR RICHARD: So did the deceased die apparently instantly, according to you?  According to you it seemed as if he had dropped down dead instantly.  Is that correct?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson the witness has answered this question and said he does not know when the deceased died.  I think it's not fair for my learned friend to repeat the question when it's been answered.

MR RICHARD: How was the deceased positioned when he was shot?  Was he sitting, standing, was he, you said earlier sitting?

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, where was Clive in relation to the deceased?

MR DUBE: I will say he was seated and there was a tree as I am demonstrating using this pen.  He was sitting on this side and I think Clive was on his right-hand side, no left-hand side I mean.

MR RICHARD: And where in the head did Clive shoot the deceased?

MR DUBE: If my memory serves me right it was somewhere around left of the head.

CHAIRPERSON: He's indicated left side of the head towards the top of the head.

MR RICHARD: Now, after the shooting, did anyone make any effort to pick up the spent cartridge case?

MR DUBE: No I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Well an examination of the police docket indicates that no spent cartridge case was found.  So do you remember anyone looking for the cartridge case?

MR DUBE: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Now, the other point that I'd like to return to is, insofar as you are concerned, this killing, do you think it's definable as a legitimate killing?

MR DUBE: I don't quite understand the last part of your question.

MR RICHARD: In the late seventies, the ANC began to target specific police officers and perceived collaborators.  Initially those killed were former ANC members who had turned state witnesses in political trials.  The ANC justified these killings in its second submission because those killed were personnel actively assisting the SAP.  Do you think, within that meaning, the killing Sicelo Dhlomo was a legitimate killing?

MR DUBE: Yes, at the time.

MR RICHARD: And then, if so, we go to the next thing.  Some months later you proceeded to Lusaka and reported the matter, is that not correct?  You said so this morning.

MR DUBE: Yes, the following months, although I don't quite remember as to which month exactly did I go to Lusaka.

MR RICHARD: Was it before the Ellis Park bomb or after the Ellis Park bomb?

MR DUBE: After the incident of the Ellis Park bomb.

MR RICHARD: And on what date did the Ellis Park bomb take place?

MR DUBE: That happened in July the 2nd.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you say you reported the matter to one Aquino, what was Aquino's real name?

MR DUBE: It's Hein Grasskopf.

MR RICHARD: Hein Grasskopf?

MR DUBE: Hein Grasskopf.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now in-between you and him who else were you responsible to?

MR DUBE: You mean between myself and him?

MR RICHARD: The chain of command between Hein Grasskopf and yourself.

MR DUBE: It will be auxiliary staff in Botswana, let's start there.  That was based there in Botswana where you'll find that I maintain or I am able to maintain the communication between myself and them and you find that sometimes it's a bit difficult to get hold of them, especially after raids had been conducted, then I would then go straight to Lusaka to report there.  So there were some of, there were members of the auxiliary staff.

MR RICHARD: Because immediately after the shooting there were numerous press items and articles on the death of the late Sicelo Dhlomo, and in fact there was an outcry.  After the Ellis Park bomb which is over seven months later, you go to Lusaka, why did you take seven months to mention anything because in the meantime the world was misinformed?

MR DUBE: The situation that prevailed at the time was quite impossible for me to gain access of going out, because you will find Botswana there will be raids that are going on, so it was not quite as easy for me to go anywhere as I wished.

MR RICHARD: So that means what you're saying is that there was no line of communication between you and the outside world.

MR KOOPEDI: The witness didn't say so.