Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: In the car we did not talk about anything.

ADV SANDI: Can I ask the interpreters to get ready, I'm going to ask my question in Xhosa.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mabala, is there something else that  you discussed in connection with the attack besides the ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could Mr Sandi please wait for the interpretation?  Could the speakers wait for the interpretation please - the speakers are not waiting for the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] please answer your question so that the interpreter can have time.  What is the answer?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Could the question be asked again?

INTERPRETER: The speakers are not waiting for the interpretation.

ADV SANDI: On the same day ...[intervention]

ADV GOZA: Excuse me Mr Chair, we have a concern that there may be a reply that did not get interpreted, the interpreter complains that the speakers are not waiting for the interpreter and I am of the view that there is a response elicited which has not come through by interpretation.  I would request that the Chairman directs that Mr Advocate Sandi directs his question again.

ADV SANDI: I will start from the beginning Mr Mabala, you said that you did not at all discuss about this matter ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The witness is not waiting for the interpretation.  I think the witness and the speaker on the panel are speaking directly to each other without waiting for the interpretation - they must ask for a pause.

CHAIRPERSON: Please understand, he's talking to you in your language - the question is being interpreted for our benefit in English and with the result that you are talking too quickly without the interpreter having a chance, so when Mr Sandi asks you questions, just wait a while so the interpreter can interpret for us and then you answer.  Do you understand?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I understand.  Please repeat the question, Sir.

ADV SANDI: After I have asked you the question please pause such that the interpretation can come through, do you understand Mr Mabala?  The question is - you did not have any other discussion in connection with this attack?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, we did not have a discussion.

ADV SANDI: You've answered this question only.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I cannot hear, what are you saying Sir?

ADV SANDI: No English translation.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No English translation.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mabala, we heard evidence from Mr Gqomfa that at the robots - that is on the corner as we understand at Station Road and ...[intervention]

ADV GOZA: I am sorry to have to come in again Mr Chair, we're seeking to ensure that it has come out through interpretation that the question that the applicant is saying, was asked by Mr Gqomfa - that was asked when they were they were back in the house or hut wherever they were.  We just wish to seek and ensure that that has come through interpretation, I am not sure that it did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get that?

MR PRIOR: I follow it yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You follow it?   The question as to whether or why he didn't use the hand grenade was a question that was not asked in the car but at a later stage - all right?

MR PRIOR: As the Chair pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: As part of the answer to the question: "Was there a discussion in the car"?

MR PRIOR: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  So was this discussion or the question - was there any discussion further about the attack in the house - that is after you had arrived in the car?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: After we arrived - we went straight to the house, Comrade Luyanda asked me why I did not launch the hand grenade the previous day - the previous night.

MR PRIOR: And you told him?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, I told him.

MR PRIOR: Any of your other comrades - sorry, was there any other general discussion about the attack at that time?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, we did not.

MR PRIOR: Did you see the person that was shot by Mr Gqomfa at the robots - that is now before you left the area - completely left the area?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Before we left the place of the incident I heard a bang, comrade Luyanda was shooting - I am almost positive that he shot that person because I heard a sound, a bang - he was shooting at the time, that's comrade Luyanda.

MR PRIOR: My information at this stage is that the person he shot - Mr Cerqueira was not armed but had simply come out of his restaurant to see what was going on, are you able to comment at all?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I cannot comment on that Sir.   I heard a sound, I did not know from which direction the sound came from and comrade Luyanda was shooting at that time - whether this man was armed or not, I cannot say.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.  The hand grenade that you had in your possession, did it have wire nails glued to it?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes Sir, it did have.

MR PRIOR: And did you glue the nails onto the grenade?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, I received this grenade already with these nail wires.

MR PRIOR: From who, who did you receive it from?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I found the hand grenade at time we were supposed to leave.

MR PRIOR: Was that in the suitcase?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, it was in the suitcase.

MR PRIOR: Because Mr Madasi gave similar evidence yesterday, he said the rifle grenade that he was to shoot into the tavern - when he took possession of it, it already had wire nails adhered to it or glued to is, is that correct?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: I want to refer to a portion of the Judgement - page 38 Mr Chairman, of the bundle, paragraph ...[intervention]

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Which page?

MR PRIOR: Sorry, it's the bundle of documents and the Judgement is in Afrikaans, so I'll read out the ...[intervention]

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I don't have that document.

INTERPRETER: The witness asked for the page as well.

MR PRIOR: Page 38.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Paragraph?

MR PRIOR: At the top of page 38, that small paragraph (b) - small (b) in Afrikaans. Do you understand Afrikaans?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I don't understand Afrikaans, I will need an interpretation.

MR PRIOR: All right, I'm going to quote from that portion of that ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The passage will be interpreted.
MR PRIOR
"To the left behind on the floor of the vehicle a certain number of nails were found which according to Sergeant du Plessis, appeared as thought they had been coated with a jelly like or glue like material - he also collected these nails".
Now, the reference is to the blue Opel Record that was found by the police.  I also want to refer you in the same vein, to page 39 of the bundle from lines 23 to 29 where Captain Judith Allen who analysed these nails.  And again at page 41 there's a reference at lines 3, 4 and 5 where she compared the glue on the nails to bostick clear where she came to the conclusion further on at lines 6 to 8, is that the adhesive was bostick clear.  
	Now, with that in mind, my question is that loose nails were found in the vehicle that you had used to travel to the tavern and what I'm going to suggest to you that from that evidence it appears that the nails were glued to the grenades and the rifle grenade in the car shortly before the attack.  Do you agree with that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: We found the grenade already with these nails.

MR PRIOR: I also refer to page 37 of the record - that is of the bundle, where a cap - I refer to paragraph (a) at the bottom of the page Mr Chairman, a cap was found in this blue Opel and apparently hair samples were discovered and after your arrest hair samples were taken from you and those hair samples that were taken from you after your arrest matched the hair samples in the cap.  Do you remember that evidence being given at your trial?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I remember that evidence.

MR PRIOR: And did you see the cap when it was presented at your trial?