Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: If somebody hits you or attacks you and you don't retaliate, and they repeat this, you come to a point where you realise that they are going to actually kill you and therefore you must also be able to defend yourself and retaliate until such time that you can both sit down your arms and actually stop the fighting.

MS THABETE: Why I am asking you this, I am trying to ascertain what your role was in the ammunition and more guns, like was it to attain peace or it is like you were exacerbating the whole situation?
	Are you saying you wanted peace or you wanted them to defend themselves, or you wanted the war to go on?  What did you want, what did you wish to achieve by giving them the firearms?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I wanted a situation where if the attackers arrived and come to attack these people, they will find them ready to retaliate, so that they will not return for the second time.
	If they knew that we were defenceless, then they would come back repeatedly to attack the area.  I was hoping that there would come a time when the political situation would change and be what it is today.

MS THABETE: The last question.  At Tapuka Store when you were busy fighting, there is someone who stabbed Mr Nqobo.  Who stabbed Mr Nqobo there, if at all he was stabbed?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: He was not stabbed, not at all.  Even when they tried to ascertain that in court, they realised that his scar was there for a long time.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Thank you Mr Hlengwa, that concludes your testimony.  You may stand down.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I will like to say something.  Can I say a few words?
	I would like to submit that when I grew up and went to school at kwaMashu there was a bit of violence.  When I attended school at Mzuvehle, there would be violence.  We would be involved in marches.  We actually struggled for the release of Mr Mandela.
	This was done under the banners of the UDF or the ANC.  Although I was still young and did not know much about politics, I knew about Mandela and what was going on.  As I grew up, I realised that there was this conflict between this two organisations and when I joined the police, I realised that the members themselves were divided between these two organisations.
	You also had to align yourself with one, you cannot be neutral.  Unfortunately you also could not reveal that you were part of one organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard that, you have given evidence, you cannot give evidence again.  We have heard your evidence, thank you.
	Just get to the point, we don't want to start the whole thing again.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I am trying to explain that the political situation is responsible for the situation that I am in today.
	I was a member of the police, working, but I found myself in that situation because of the political violence.  I therefore wish to apologise to the people that I hurt and to the community at large, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hlengwa.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that concludes the application for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Mr Chairman, I've got one question for the co-perpetrators behind me.  I don't know whether I can go ahead, proceed and call them quickly?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to call them, you can if you want to call them?

MS THABETE: As witnesses, yes.  I will call Mr Nduduzi Mbele.

CHAIRPERSON: If they don't want to give evidence, they can't.  You can't force them to.

MS THABETE: Can I please call Mr Dumisani Ernest Dlamini, it is one question I want to ask him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: It is Mr Dumisani Ernest Dlamini, one of the co-perpetrators who was with the applicant when they robbed the pension pay out.

DUMISANI ERNEST DLAMINI: (sworn states)

MS THABETE: Mr Dlamini, can  you tell the Committee members whether you applied for amnesty?

DUMISANI ERNEST DLAMINI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Did you apply?

DUMISANI ERNEST DLAMINI: Yes.

MS THABETE: What happened to your application?

DUMISANI ERNEST DLAMINI: The application was returned and the response was that they had refused to consider my application.

MS THABETE: Do you have something to say to the Committee members?

DUMISANI ERNEST DLAMINI: Yes.  I would like to know why my application was refused, because I had written everything, everything that was written there, was the truth.  As Lucky is present here today, I had actually gone to tell them about it.
	Ward 9 at Hammarsdale, is a UDF stronghold, and we were the people who were involved in the fighting.  What motivated me to support the UDF was that there were policemen in Hammarsdale, in Ward 9 whom we used to work with.   One of them was Roy who used to work at Camperdown.  Another one was Mose Mdagani who was killed in the political violence as well.
	These were the people whom we cooperated with in assisting the UDF with ammunition.  Whem Mose Mdagani died ...

MS THABETE: Thank you, all I wanted to do is to give you an opportunity because you had said you wanted to ask the Committee members.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, I don't know if any of us are in a situation to explain what happened to your application and why a particular decision was arrived at.
	As we sit here, we are not in a position to explain.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chair.  I wanted to give them an opportunity to address you, because they said they wanted that opportunity.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions, Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, can you put your earphones on?  Is that it, any further evidence?

MS THABETE: No further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, are you in a position to address the Committee?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Chairperson.  In fact, I have no submissions to make, I will abide by the decision of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MR LAX: Just to tell you what happened, Mr Ngubane has made no submissions in his address, he abides by the decision of the Committee.
	You are being asked if you want to address us at all on the merits.

MS THABETE: I will abide by the decision as well, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will take time to deliberate and we will hand down a written decision in this matter as soon as possible.  We will accordingly reserve our decision, thank you.
	Would this then be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment and then we will start with Mr Cele's application after the lunch break, Mr Ngubane.  Sorry, I might say before the decision is out, that statement referred to which wasn't signed, the Committee will place no probative value on that at all, and we will disregard that and we won't regard it as evidence.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You know the letter I am talking about, that affidavit made to that person in prison, we won't take any cognisance of that.
	Can we start at about twenty to two?

MS THABETE: Certainly.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I have been informed during the lunch adjournment, that one of the relatives of a victim in the incident, wishes to put a question to the applicant.  Do you have any objection at all Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairman, I have no objection.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  If we could have the victim's name please Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: The victim's next of kin is Josia Hlongwane, the father to Sergeant Samuel Sipho Hlongwane who was killed in the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane, you may go ahead and ask the applicant the question you wish to ask him.