Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  I apologise for the late start this morning, but it was for reasons beyond our control, there was an electricity, power failure.  Hopefully the electricity will be on uninterruptedly for the rest of the day.
	We will be hearing the applications of Mr Mbutho and three others this morning, and then this afternoon, but before we start, I would like to introduce the Committee to you.
	On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, a member of the Amnesty Committee.  He is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg.  On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni, also a member of the Amnesty Committee, he is an attorney from Pretoria.  I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge in the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that Court.
	I would ask the legal representatives, please to place themselves on record.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, and members of the Committee, my name is E.M. Ngubane.  I am representing the applicants, Gwenzawakhe Nicholas Msani, Palela Bekhisenzo Hlongwa and Fanie Simpiwe Mbutho and I intend calling them in that order.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MS THABETE: Thank you Chairperson and members of the Committee, my name is Tabile Thabete and I am the Evidence Leader in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  All the proceedings in the matter will be simultaneously translated and in order to benefit from the translation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices.  They are available from the sound technician here in front.  You've just got to choose the channel for your language, I presume it will be English and Zulu.
	Channel 2 I am told is English, and channel 3 is Zulu.  Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I ask for leave to call Gwenzawakhe Nicholas Msani.

CHAIRPERSON: What page is his application on?

MR NGUBANE: Page 74.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 74?

MR NGUBANE: That is page 74 - 76, sir.

MR LAX: Sorry, lady Interpreter, if you could just press the switch, we are hearing your Zulu translation coming through on channel 2.

INTERPRETER: I am on channel 3.

MR LAX: Okay, I am on channel 2 and I am still hearing you, without the English, maybe we can just sort that out quickly.

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: (sworn states)

MR NGUBANE: At some stage you were a member of the United Democratic Front, is that correct?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: When did you involve yourself in the activities of the United Democratic Front?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: In 1985.

MR NGUBANE: Before you could join the United Democratic Front, can you give us some indication regarding the status of your family.  Did you grow up in a rich family, or your family was relatively poor?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: We were a poor family.

MR NGUBANE: Right, and then you joined ...

CHAIRPERSON: We didn't get the translation.

MR LAX: Sorry, if we can just, English will now be on channel 1.  They have sorted out the technical problem.  If you can retune your thing to channel 1, you will get the English only, and Zulu remains on channel 3.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the answer to the last question Mr Ngubane, whether he came from a rich or relatively poor family?

INTERPRETER: He said he came from a poor family.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  In 1985, could you describe to us the political situation as you perceived it, was it low profile political situation or was it explosive at that time?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: From around 1985, there was conflict at Macubeni between the UDF and the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell us what the problem was what caused the fight between the UDF and the IFP?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: There was conflict between these two organisations, the UDF and the IFP, political tensions.

MR NGUBANE: Did you as a member of the United Democratic Front, participate in mass stay-away's and boycotts and strikes of some sort?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And what was the reaction of the IFP to your activities at that time?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: They did not see eye to eye with our organisation and they would attack and kill our comrades.

MR NGUBANE: Were there police in your area, Macubeni?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, there were.

MR NGUBANE: Were they the South African Police or the kwaZulu Police?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I will explain it in this way.  Macubeni is an SAP area, but there were ZP members involved in the area, who were assisting the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Did you report the problems that you had with Inkatha, to the police?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, we did.

MR NGUBANE: What was their attitude when you reported the problems?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The police, the SAP and the kwaZulu Police were assisting Inkatha, they would not take any steps if we reported crimes against the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: When you say they assisted Inkatha, according to your observation, were there instances when these police physically accompanied the Inkatha people to attack you?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the witness is indicating that he didn't hear that question.  Could you please repeat the question and see if there is a technical problem or whether he just missed it.

MR SIBANYONI: In fact Chairperson, we had the Zulu translation here, we are not supposed to hear it in our ears.

MR NGUBANE: Are you all right, can you hear now in the Zulu?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: The question that I had asked you, when you say that the police assisted Inkatha, were there any instances when the police would physically accompany Inkatha in the attacks that were directed at you?

MR LAX: He can't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: We've got a technical difficulty here with the sound system.

MR LAX: We can hear you on channel 1.

CHAIRPERSON: I am told we must go back to channel 2.  Mr Ngubane, maybe third time lucky, could you repeat the question again please.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Mr Msani, when you say that the kwaZulu police were assisting Inkatha, were there instances when you would witness the kwaZulu police physically going with the Inkatha to attack you as the UDF?

MR LAX: He still can't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Still can't hear.

MR LAX: Can you hear them now?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  The question was when you say that the kwaZulu police were assisting Inkatha, were there instances when you witnessed the kwaZulu police physically accompanying Inkatha to attack the United Democratic Front?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, there was a time at Macubeni where the ZP would attack us in broad daylight.

MR NGUBANE: Did that occur once or it occurred on several occasions?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Many times.

MR NGUBANE: Were there people killed during the attacks by Inkatha?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did the situation continue to exist, I am just getting a Zulu translation once more, did this situation continue until 1990?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: In your application you say that at some stage you became a member of the Self Defence Unit.

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you recall when that occurred?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: In the early part of 1990.

MR NGUBANE: Whose idea was it that there should be Self Defence Units?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The command came from Mr Jeff Radebe.

MR NGUBANE: Was Jeff Radebe, what position did he hold?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He was responsible for the formation of the SDU's.

MR NGUBANE: What organisation did he belong to according to your knowledge?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He was an ANC member.

MR NGUBANE: At that stage, were you also an ANC member?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And you also joined the Self Defence Units, is that right?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: What was the purpose of the establishment of the SDU's?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: To protect the community and ANC members in the area.