Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

FUNDISELE GULENI: (No interpretation)   After having hid the car, two people came out, running, of the car, Mr Mapipa's car, and they ran into the bushes.   Mzwandile said to Ndumiso Sgotyana "we should go up to the car", but Ndumiso did not want that, he might have been scared, but I was not sure as to why didn't he want to come with.   I went then with Mzwandile and when - he had a balaclava on, but he could be clearly identified.  When he got there, he asked them in English as to "where are the others and what is it that you need from the ANC" and Mr Mapipa was alive then, but Mzwandile finished him off with his firearm that he had.  Thereafter he started the car, but before he did, we found a pumpgun that he took, and there was a plastic full of ammunition in this car, but we left those laying there on the road, we just took the pumpgun which is a self-made gun and we went back to our car.  Whilst he was driving, on our way back, just near Dumase, he stopped the car.  They got off and he opened the small window and Ndumiso said, they both got off, "gentlemen, you must never disclose this to anyone, otherwise it would land us in trouble".  We proceeded back to the town.  On our arrival there, we went separate ways and I found the ANC Chairperson, and I reported the matter to him.   That is all I have to say regarding this case.

MR MGIDLANA: Prior to the actual taking place of this incident, did you sit down and plan that you must attack these people, after having heard that they were in town and that you were about to attack?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, we didn't sit down and have any planning, we didn't have a chance.  As he was telling us, Mzwandile, about the details and how he got the information, that is when this car arrived, and we decided to follow it.  There was no planning done around it.

MR MGIDLANA: Since when did you know this Mzwandile, or when did he arrive in Port St Johns?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I would not know exactly when did he arrive in Port St Johns, but I saw him at the beginning of 1994 in January, if I recall well.  I used to see him driving around with a van, called XJ, and he used to be in the Etombo area a lot.   I got to know him well when he came to the ANC office, introducing himself as an MK member, driving in a brand new 4x4 that was red.   He had a small cave on the road towards Silimela in Mpeleni, also he used to come in handy by assisting with his car when we were preparing for voting.  That is when I got to know him better, as he was assisting in the ANC office.

CHAIRPERSON: Whatever the case may be, you accepted that he was knowledgeable in ANC activities and you were prepared to regard him as the leader of that unit?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I do not want to agree with you fully, although we used to have a lot of disagreements on some issues that I might quote, as he was always armed we would ...

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking you to prove it, I am just asking you is that a fact, you regarded him and accepted him as the leader?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you honestly believed that he was what he said he was?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, initially we did not doubt him, but as time went on, we had our doubts about him, but we could not question him as to whether was he a trained MK member or not, but we had to accept it on the face of it.

CHAIRPERSON: You believed that that was so, when he told you that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, we believed him.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we proceed to the next incident?

MR MGIDLANA: Were you then, just to finish off Judge, were you then charged in respect of this Mapipa case?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes sir.

MR MGIDLANA: And the trial is still proceeding before the Umtata High Court?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct sir.

MR MGIDLANA: How many are you as the accused persons in that case?  You are an accused person, who are the other accused persons, the number?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter how many other accused there are?  The fact of the matter is he is an accused amongst others for this matter.

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases you, Judge, in fact I just wanted to clear one aspect that there are other people who are accused in that particular case, but I just wanted to enquire about that.

CHAIRPERSON: But he himself says he is guilty.

MR MGIDLANA: He is guilty, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is why he is making the application?  Let us not complicate matters further.

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases you, Judge.   May I proceed Judge, to the other incident, as it pleases you.  You are also an applicant in respect of the killing of five APLA PAC members, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know their names?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I do not know their names, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR MGIDLANA: Could you please tell this Committee what happened during that particular incident?

FUNDISELE GULENI: We were about to have an ANC rally, campaigning for the elections.   The rally was to be addressed by Gen Bantu Holomisa.  On the eve of this rally, we were camping at Majola as SDU members, with the marshals.

MR MGIDLANA: Where was this rally going to be held?

FUNDISELE GULENI: It was going to be held at Majola, at the playground called Tini.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you recall the date on which it was going to be held?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I cannot remember the date, but I think it was just a few days before the election or before the voting.

MR MGIDLANA: So it was in 1994?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, in 1994.

MR MGIDLANA: All right, proceed.

FUNDISELE GULENI: From our place where we were camping, I went to town to make some preparations for the rally that was to take place on that particular day.   After preparing, getting ready to go to town, I was with Mguja who was there to help in the preparing of food.   Mr Kanandyana came, driving in a car, with Lusindiso telling us that there was a report that there were APLA people who were present there and there was a rumour that they were going to disrupt the rally and we enquired more about this people, how do they look like, and so on.   He said they were on their way, they were seen on the road, coming from the direction of Bantu.  The people who were involved in the catering, we decided to leave them there and decided to go up and see what was happening.  We drove in Mr Kanandyana's car.

MR MGIDLANA: Sorry for interrupting you, I just want to find out is this Lusindiso, the first applicant herein, that is Lusindiso Poyo or is it somebody else?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct, it is Lusindiso Poyo.

MR MGIDLANA: You may proceed.