Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-21

MR WILLIAMS: So, was the intention to be there before Mr Jonas could arrive there?  In other words, to wait for him there?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: ;   Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And to surprise him there, obviously?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you anticipate a possible shoot-out?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that was always the case whenever the people are going for this kind of an operation, that would be anticipated.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, let's just go to the actual incident itself.  You said you were driving a civilian motor vehicle.  Is it correct that it was Mr Yengeni's vehicle?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: If I'm not mistaken, I think the vehicle belonged to - yes, we got that vehicle from Mr Yengeni.  That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And can you tell the Committee, David, was he an askari or was he a policeman with a rank?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I knew David as an askari.

MR WILLIAMS: Now isn't it correct that at that stage the askaris weren't integrated into the police force as such?  I think they only became integrated in the 90's, in the early 90's, but at that stage they weren't actual policemen?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And I put it to you that you were higher in rank than the askaris at that stage.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I was a constable.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but weren't you higher in rank than those people?  I can't here what you say.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, my position was a bit higher than the askaris because they were not policemen.

MR WILLIAMS: Now you also state in your affidavit and in your evidence earlier, that David shouted at you to shoot the driver of the vehicle.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Somewhere else you also say that you obeyed an order or you were commanded to do something and I think you were referring to this shouting, that you should shoot the driver.  Now isn't it correct that that is not an order?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I can say that it's an order.

MR WILLIAMS: I put it to you that a junior can never give an order to a senior person in the police force.  Also a person that is not incorporated into the police force, as the askaris were at that stage, could not give an order to a policeman.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I want to say, David was a senior in the murderers and I was not a murderer, therefore he was in a position to give me that kind of an order.  He told me to do so because he was so used to killing, so he wanted me to do the same, killing, that is why I couldn't shoot at Bongani.

MR WILLIAMS: No, but the point is, he might have been a senior amongst these non-commissioned officers, or non-commissioned people or agents of the State or whatever, he might have been their senior, but he couldn't have been your senior, he wasn't even in the police force, he didn't have a police number as you.  How could he be your senior?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: That doesn't work that way.  It never used to be the case in those days.  The askari would be a senior person, even if they were not policemen, but they were expert in killings and they were the favourite of the boers, more than the ordinary policemen in those days.

MR WILLIAMS: So did you shoot him because you wanted to win favour with the boers back then?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I did not shoot at him.

MR WILLIAMS: And it seems also as if you decided not to shoot directly at him because you were nervous, not so?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, I was nervous but that was not the reason that led me not to kill him, that was from my heart.  Bongani was not armed and Bongani could not see him and Bongani was not a threat to my life, that is why I did not shoot.  I did it purposely for me not to shoot Bongani.

MR WILLIAMS: Now are you aware that Mr Jonas was shot at point blank range?  In fact he faced the person who shot him.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: That took place in some forest and I could not see that happening.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, but I put it to you that he was shot at point-blank range.  Can you comment on that?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: What is it that you want me to comment about, Sir?

MR WILLIAMS: That he was shot under circumstances that did not warrant his shooting.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: As I've already explained, I did not shoot him, the askari was there to shoot.  What happened in the bushes, I have no knowledge about because Jonas had no firearm with him.

MR WILLIAMS: But didn't the askaris boast about it afterwards, or didn't you discuss it?  Didn't someone say: "Ag, it wasn't necessary to shoot him, but I shot him"?  It's like a trophy on his shoulder.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: David made some utterances.  He said that I hurt him and even in court he mentioned that he was not in a position to waste the bullet, that is why he had to make sure that the bullet penetrated Bongani's body.

MR WILLIAMS: So is it your understanding that he shot him merely because he did not want to waste the bullet?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct and the other reason was that he was cruel.

MR WILLIAMS: So do you in fact concede that he was shot under circumstances where it was not necessary for them to shoot him?  Is that your understanding?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, there was no need for him to be shot at.

MR WILLIAMS: Not only shot at, but there was no need for them to shoot him, to actually wound him.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Siyali, I just want to turn very briefly to the person who was in the vehicle with Mr Jonas at the time of the incident.  This woman, I think her name is Thembetha.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you want him to comment, Mr Williams, or what?  Do you know the name of the lady who was accompanying Mr Jonas in the vehicle?  Was it Thembetha?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I think the surname was Zimbitha, her surname, Thembetha, yes that was her name.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Was she arrested on that day?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: For how long?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: She was in detention for something like three weeks.

MR WILLIAMS: You also say in your statement that you investigated and you ascertained that she was not involved in any way.  Is that correct?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: How did you ascertain this?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I went to the township where she was residing and I inquired about her and I realised that she was just a young person who was not involved in this and then I had to speak to the authorities to release her.

MR WILLIAMS: Now did you visit her place frequently after she was released?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, I used to visit the township.

MR WILLIAMS: No but the question is, did you visit her place frequently after her release?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: What was the purpose of those visits?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Each and every person who would be released and a person who'd be in my hands, would become a friend of mine automatically and I had a right to go and visit that particular person in the name of Ubuntu and as a black person.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but I'm sure that at that stage there was no talk of Ubuntu.  At that stage the struggle for freedom was at its peak.  Wasn't it perhaps to obtain information from her?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I was not that type of a person.

MR WILLIAMS: Did she ever supply you with information regarding Mr Bongani Jonas?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: No, not at all.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you ever attempt to obtain information from her, or to use her as an informer?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: No, not at all.

MR WILLIAMS: So what was the purpose of your frequent visits to her?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: If I am working in the township, that was just on the way and I would just go there.