Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to tell us whether as far as you were concerned, were you aware that it was policy of uMkhonto weSizwe in fact to attack civilian targets at the time, that is soft targets?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was never the policy.

ADV PRIOR: So would you agree in the light of what we've heard from Mr Matshididi and what I put to him in questioning and your own knowledge, the planting of a bomb in such a soft area if I may put it that way, was a departure, was a moving away, was something different to what M.K. had been involved in up until that time?  Let me be more specific, your targets up to that time were hard targets in the sense they were either military installations, police stations and the like, institutions closely linked to the Government of the day?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was not our intention to kill people, to injure people, civilians.

ADV PRIOR: Yes I hear what you saying but I just want to get the distinction in your mind if such a distinction is made by yourself.  Up until that stage uMkhonto weSizwe and the unit that you were a member of, we've heard that from Mr Matshididi or co-applicant, the type of missions that you went on were to attack government buildings, installations, police stations and the such, the like?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: We've heard evidence over the many months and years of the TRC that there was a reference in military terms to hard and soft targets.  The targets that you now talk about, the military and the police stations were hard targets as opposed to unarmed civilians being soft targets.  Was that distinction clear in your mind at the time?

AGGIE SHOKE: I knew the distinction between the two.

ADV PRIOR: So not having a general instruction to attack soft targets, do I then understand, am I correct in saying to you that the planing of a bomb at Ellis Park, even though it wasn't your intention to kill or injure anybody, it was planted in a civilian area, that that was a departure, it was something different to what your unit as an M.K. unit was used to doing?  It was a different type of operation?

AGGIE SHOKE: We did not deviate.

ADV PRIOR: Let me try and simplify it.  You were a member of the M.K. unit.  To attack a police station in a military fashion with weapons and attack the policemen in that unit who were also armed was a target that we know, we've heard evidence about as referred to loosely as a hard target.  Are you saying the planting of a bomb in a street outside a rugby stadium is the same type of target you were used to attacking and you had orders to attack?

AGGIE SHOKE: We were taking a message across to the white people.

ADV PRIOR: And that message was what?

AGGIE SHOKE: That the killing of people in the townships can also happen to them.  We were sending the message to the white area.

ADV PRIOR: In other words that white people gathered together for example at a rugby match, were also capable of being killed like the black people who were dying in the townships.  Is that the message you wanted to convey?

AGGIE SHOKE: Repeat your question Sir?

ADV PRIOR: The message that you wanted to convey was that white people could also be killed just as black people were being killed in the townships?

AGGIE SHOKE: No, they were supposed to intervene and talk to their leadership about what was happening in the townships.

ADV PRIOR: Do I understand your evidence to be that when Dumakude came to you and said as I understand Mr Matshididi's evidence, a message has to be sent out to the white people of this country, they must understand that their position is also vulnerable, they can also be killed because our brothers and sisters in the townships were being killed.  Are you say that the fact that he bomb would explode that the white people would the have to make representations to the Government to change their ways?  Is that your evidence?

AGGIE SHOKE: That is what I want to tell you.

ADV PRIOR: Couldn't that statement have been made if the bomb was planted away from where so many people would be gathered?
In other words in a deserted car park where for example at a shopping complex where there was nobody at all?  Or at a deserted sports field or at a deserted stadium?  Could that message have not been got across in that way?

AGGIE SHOKE: Dumakude instructed us to take the bomb to that place.

ADV PRIOR: I want to know from you, I hear that you were acting under orders but as far as you were concerned did you possibly think that maybe the message we could get across to the white people in a different way, we didn't have to plant a bomb near a rugby stadium where many people were gathered or didn't you think like that at all?

AGGIE SHOKE: Sir, that's how we thought of this, we thought that the message would reach the white people.

ADV PRIOR: And you didn't think that people could be injured or killed, placing this powerful bomb in a vehicle so close to the stadium?

AGGIE SHOKE: We did not go there with the intention of killing people.  It was placed far from the gates.  I was not there but I was told that it was not placed close to the gate.

CHAIRPERSON: How far was it from the houses in the street?

AGGIE SHOKE: I did not see them when they planted the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you go there the night before and pick a place to park the bomb, to plant the bomb?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes, we went but he did not say where the bomb would be placed, he was actually checking the place.

CHAIRPERSON: You say there was no suggestion the night before of where the bomb would be placed?

AGGIE SHOKE: He said he would place it there but I don't know where he placed the bomb because at that time I was not present, I was not with them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we were told it was in front of an old house, weren't we?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, if I could just intervene for a moment?  I don't know whether there's common cause between myself and Mr Prior but my instructions are that the houses in that area were derelict and abandoned and it was a very old part of Johannesburg, part of Doornfontein.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I indicate to the Committee a bit later on whether that is in fact common cause, I can't give that assurance at this stage but we'll certainly revert to the Committee whether anyone was resident there at the time but certainly they were very old houses.
	Did you not - when you reconnoitred the street where, that was on the Friday, did you see there were old houses there?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes, there were old houses nearby.

ADV PRIOR: But you didn't know that people were not staying there or lived there, did you?

AGGIE SHOKE: Those were just walls without roofs, it look like people did not stay in.

ADV PRIOR: And when you went there on the Friday did cars drive past you, was there any movement in that street?  Did you see people walking around there?

AGGIE SHOKE: It was a quiet area, there were no cars driving by, no movements.

ADV PRIOR: From where you reconnoitred, that street where you decided on the Friday that this would be a good place, you could see the Ellis Park Stadium, is that correct?

AGGIE SHOKE: I do not remember but I think the stadium was far.

ADV PRIOR: I know you say you drove on and possibly never saw where the bomb, the car bomb was planted and if you look at the bundle page 43, that is the third bundle at page 43.  According to Mr Matshididi they parked the vehicle he says behind a bus.  There's a bus in that photograph, can you see that?

AGGIE SHOKE: Yes I see.

ADV PRIOR: Unfortunately it's not a very clear - well it's a photocopy but one sees in the background the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium.

AGGIE SHOKE: I don't see quite clearly but yes I see something here.

ADV PRIOR: Well maybe your attorney can maybe just point out the stands that one sees in the background behind the bus?

AGGIE SHOKE: I can see that.