Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what counsel is putting to you is that at the house that you're talking about, three males were stabbed and two females.   The essence of what he's saying is this, you're not telling us the truth, you're under-playing what you did, you didn't only stab one woman who had just come out of the window, who tried to come out through the window, but you stabbed three males and two females, do you understand that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that?   Mr Berger, is that what you want to put to this person?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it's either that, or there were other people with Mr Mbatha who stabbed the others in the house... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: ...but the essence is that to say that only one person was stabbed in that house, that is false.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the qualification that he's just added?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let's get the answer.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I will not deny that, because there were many of us, there could have been others who went into the house and found other people.

MR BERGER: No, you see you would know if there were others in the house, because you were looking for comrades, you say, and after you killed that girl, you continued to search the house, because you've told the committee that you then went and opened the wardrobe, remember?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And it wasn't a big house, and you would easily have seen if there was a woman aged 39 in the house, a young boy aged 15, a small boy aged 7, a young man aged 19, you would have seen them in that small house if they were there, if they had been stabbed before or if they were hiding, because you searched that house, didn't you?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: The house was not small, it had rooms, I went to the wardrobe to search because I was suspicious, there were other rooms and some of my co-applicants came out of some of these rooms.

MR BERGER: And if anyone had been stabbed in the other rooms, you would have heard that, you would have heard people screaming in the house, Mr Mbatha.   You left that house because you were satisfied that there was no-one else in the house, isn't that what you've told the committee?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I did not say that had there been any other person in another room I would have heard screams, I didn't say that.

MR BERGER: No, I'm putting it to you, you would have heard it if there was screaming?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would not say I would have heard such screams, because the one person that I stabbed was such that he didn't get a chance to scream.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, I'm just going to leave this point by putting it to you that you know more about what happened in this house and you are not telling?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I do not dispute, I am saying I did not see anything else.

MR BERGER: Who else was with you in this house?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would not know, there was a commotion.

MR BERGER: You can't name a single person who was with you?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Now, you knew that this young woman was not a comrade, because you asked her, "Where are the comrades?", am I right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I knew that she was toeing the line of her comrades.

MR BERGER: She was 15 years old.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I don't know her, I estimated her to be my age.  I am not 15 years old, I am 35 years old.

MR BERGER: You knew she was not a member of the self defence units, correct?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I did not know that, I just knew her to be a member of the SDU.

MR BERGER: Oh, really, then why did you tell the committee yesterday that you stabbed her because you were frustrated and infuriated that you could not find the people that you were searching for?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I was ventilating on her.

CHAIRPERSON: You were taking your anger at her?   That's exactly what counsel is putting to you, that you told us yesterday that you stabbed her because you were frustrated at not getting the people that you were looking for?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Suggesting that she was not a member of the SDU?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: She was a member of the SDU, except to say she was a female.

CHAIRPERSON: So is your evidence that, although she was a female, she was still a member of the SDU?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Well, Mr Mbatha, why did you say that you stabbed her because you were infuriated and frustrated that you could not find the people that you were looking for, if she was one of the people that you were looking for?   It doesn't make sense?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, she was one of the people I was looking for, but then I had priorities, I had other people who came as first priority.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, just help us understand what you're saying.   Yesterday you suggested in your evidence that she was not one of the persons that you were looking for, but you stabbed her because you were infuriated.   Today you are telling us that she was a member of the SDU, and we know that, from your evidence, you were looking for members of the SDU.   Do you understand that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: May I please ask, what is this SDU, is it the same thing as the defence, really I don't know?

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps we use the term that you didn't use, I think you used the defence yesterday.   You see all the evidence we've been hearing here is to the effect that people, the hostel dwellers were looking for the SDU's, because they were primarily responsible for killing IFP members and hostel dwellers, that's what we've been told, so we assumed that when you referred to defences, you're also referring to SDU's, but perhaps you should tell us what is it, what is it that you understand by defences?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I really cannot differentiate.

CHAIRPERSON: When you set out to look for defences, who were you actually looking for?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I was looking for the people who were patrolling the streets, killing people.   These are the people whom I heard of as being SDU's, or defence should I say.

CHAIRPERSON: That is also what we understood from those applicants who referred to these people as SDU's.   Do you understand that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we come back then to the question, yesterday you told us, that's what counsel's putting to you, that you stabbed the woman because you were frustrated at not getting the people that you were looking for.    Do you remember telling us that yesterday?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What you're telling us today is that she was also a member of the defence.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would explain this as follows:  when I got to her, it's not that I didn't know, I knew that she too was a member, she too was toeing the same line as the others, except that she was not first in the list of priority.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I think the record speaks for itself.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, chairperson, my learned colleague who took notes of the evidence in chief, I couldn't take notes myself, but - points out that he said that was asked to her was, "Where are the other defences or comrades?", the other, the word "other" appears on the note.   I haven't got a recollection as to that detail myself, but that's been pointed out to me.

MR BERGER: Well the record will clear this up.

CHAIRPERSON: It is my recollection that's what was asked of the woman.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence today that this girl was amongst the people that you were looking for?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: What is your reason today for having killed her?