Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

MR CORNELIUS: I can't say that that is any different from what 
might have happened, it sounds correct to me.  There were gunfire 
through the windows as well, and outside in the street, but I heard 
gunfire inside the Tavern.

UNKNOWN: Now, we've also heard from Mr Cerqueira, I 
think I've got his pronunciation right, Mr Cerqueira who appeared to 
know a bit about guns.  He also, when I asked him what he heard, he 
spoke about I think, I speak under correction, rapid gunfire which I 
asked him like automatic fire?  Would you not disagree with that?

MR CORNELIUS: I can't say if others were on automatic fire 
outside or wherever they were, if there is five or six or four rifles 
for that matter, firing at the same time, two shots at a time, it will 
most certainly sound like automatic gunfire.  But I for definite heard 
single shots fired at the time, and not on automatic fire.

UNKNOWN: Well, just for the record, we put that in issue Mr 
Cornelius, because that is my concern as the representative for the 
applicants.  You must correct me if I am wrong, but the impression 
that you want to create is that they, two of them came inside the 
Tavern, and not only randomly and indiscriminately, they actually 
aimed at you and they aimed at some of the deceased.  Is that the 
impression that you are creating?

MR CORNELIUS: That is the impression not that I want to create, 
that is the impression that I have.

UNKNOWN: I want to put it to you that that impression is a 
wrong impression, it is not supported by the facts.

MR CORNELIUS: I don't agree.

MR PRIOR: I think that is incorrect, with respect, and I must 
object.  Exhibit A has gone in, there has been evidence about Exhibit 
A, and if we look at the photograph at page 2(b), the cartridge that 
is against the wall, between the two deceased on the raised platform, 
has never been explained and certainly would seem to suggest on the 
inferences, that that was ejected from a rifle very close to that 
position.  Certainly not anywhere near the door.
	So, my objection is simply that to say that it is not being 
substantiated by anything, is misleading.

JUDGE WILSON: There may be some merits in your objection if 
we had any evidence about it.  Don't you think we should have some 
evidence Mr Prior, from someone who is an expert in R4 rifles to 
tell us where the cartridges are discharged, how far away they can 
be thrown. 
	It may well be that the evidence will be that they are 
discharged to the right, so someone standing where this young 
gentleman said he was standing at the gap in the wall, cartridges 
from his rifle could never have gone anywhere near the raised 
platform.  But we haven't got that evidence before us at the moment.
	This question about where cartridges go to, is we all have to 
rely back to the time we last used a rifle and try to remember.  And I 
think it would help because, can I while we are on this, and I am 
interrupting you Mr Arendse, I don't want you to look at the 
photographs - I think that they are, I would rather you don't look at 
the moment, but can you look at that plan, it is Exhibit B.
	Can you indicate to us approximately where it was that you 
were sitting?

MR CORNELIUS: The closest I can explain, if you can see the "d".

JUDGE WILSON: "d"?

MR CORNELIUS: The "d" is pointing to a raised platform and 
there, what seems to be tables.

JUDGE WILSON: In fact, Exhibit D is where one of the bodies 
was found.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, because it was on that platform, the 
second table into the shop.  There was one other table that was 
slightly below us and right behind us, and that was the table that Mr 
Palm and his daughter sat at.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were the second table on that raised 
platform?

MR CORNELIUS: We were the second, on that raised platform.

JUDGE WILSON: I think we all know what you mean by the raised 
platform, that is on the right of the plan, marked off by a double 
line.

MR CORNELIUS: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were approximately somewhere near 
where the "d" would have been?

MR CORNELIUS: More or less there, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Where the, sorry not where the "d" is, but where 
the line from the "d" ends, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Just on the other aspect, with respect, Judge 
Wilson is correct is that all we have up to now before and which is 
not in dispute and then Mr Prior is correct, is that these cartridges 
were found close to or next to, on top of the deceased bodies.  
There is no evidence, the only evidence is that from the applicant's 
side is Madasi was standing, sorry maybe I could just deal with this 
Mr Cornelius, you were at the end of that line which comes from 
"d", is that right, more or less there?

MR CORNELIUS: Where I was lying after the attack or before?

UNKNOWN: No, where you were sitting and chatting and 
having a drink?

MR CORNELIUS: I was sitting, correct.

UNKNOWN: Yes, now how far is that from the corner of that 
wall?  Or rather, let me put it this way, you see "h" there, "h" is an 
entrance.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Okay, now if Madasi says that he went down that 
entrance and there is a wall there on his right as you go down, is 
that right?

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: What we've got at the moment is a little bit of a 
wall and a wide open space and then another little bit of wall, should 
that all be wall on the right?  That is to about the level  of "b", that 
is all wall and then there is an opening, and that is what we see in 
the photographs.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Judge.  Is that opening directly 
opposite where you were sitting?

MR CORNELIUS: I would say it was diagonally opposite.

UNKNOWN: Diagonally, okay.  And how far would that 
opening be from you, four, five metres?

MR CORNELIUS: At least, at least five metres.

UNKNOWN: Okay, because I want to put it to you or just for 
your comment, my information is, and maybe we will test this with 
whoever is going to be called to give us maybe some expert evidence 
on where, how these cartridges land up there, is that when you are a 
position of four to five, or even six metres away and you are firing 
like Mr Madasi was firing with an R4 rifle, then it is quite possible, 
and in fact it would happen that these cartridges could land some 
four to six metres away from where you fire.

MR CORNELIUS: I do not believe that that is possible.

UNKNOWN: Okay, fine.

MR CORNELIUS: I do not believe that you can stand behind a 
wall, as he says, and supposedly as we all know, cartridges shoot 
out to the right if we want to use that, if he is behind a wall, 
shooting at people in that direction where the wall that he took as 
cover here, his cartridges should land against the wall, towards, and 
not four or five or six metres, between the heads of two people lying 
on the raised platform.  I do not believe that it could go that 
distance.

UNKNOWN: There is just something which momentously 
slipped me Mr Chairman, I am just trying to think what it was.  It is 
this Mr Cornelius, and perhaps this is for the record Mr Chairman, 
but obviously Mr Cornelius can comment.
	Before a criminal trail starts Mr Cornelius, the State 
Prosecutor, the State Advocate would give a summary of the 
evidence that he intends to lead at a criminal trial.  He gives it to 
the other Advocates.  Now I have that summary in front of me and I 
want to read it to you.
	I can obviously make it available if it needs to be.

CHAIRPERSON: What purpose does that serve, the summary?

UNKNOWN: The only purpose it serves is that it doesn't 
mention anything, Mr Cornelius, about these gunmen, these 
attackers having gone inside the Tavern.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not evidence in any case.