Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

ADV PRIOR: Just to get the record straight, we've heard from Mr Hugo that his four clients or the clients that he represents were there, Letsatsi, Khumalo, Radebe and Maluleka.  We know Ramatala was there, do you confirm that there were others, Mthembu?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chair, I can't recall.  On different occasions we sometimes had different people.

ADV PRIOR: One, Tulo, M Tulo?  Apparently he's now deceased.

FRANK MCCARTER: I remember his name but I don't remember whether he was there.

ADV PRIOR: T S Nobela?

FRANK MCCARTER: I remember Steven Nobela but I can't recall whether he was there.

ADV PRIOR: We've heard about Lembede, Mhieza you say wasn't there, and Aubrey Mgade, do you remember him being there?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Aubrey Mgade was a group, well a chap who worked with another group and he was definitely not there.  I think it was Warrant Officer Letsatsi was the senior man.

ADV PRIOR: Look your memory may be failing you but we've produced the Travelling and Subsistence claims which show that those black members together with yourselves were in Durban over the same period, would you then ...(no microphone) those documents produced, would you then confirm - sorry, you keep shutting me down, would you agree then that those, the members that travelled with you to Durban and claimed for the same period in Durban as yourselves, would have been the members that made up your contingent?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairman, sorry, I've had sight of these documents, the S&T documents, Mr Mgade's name does not appear on these documents, he wasn't part of this contingent, according to the documents.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, I'm grateful for that.
	And your evidence was that you were in Durban from the 10th of February up until the 27th, is that correct, after the death of Bhila?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chair, I can't remember the precise dates but that does sound right.

ADV PRIOR: And is your evidence that you were there for routine work or was there any specific work that you had to carry out?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, it was routine work, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Can I understand from that or do I understand that no killings or murders had taken place from the 10th of February up until the time when Bhila was murdered?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And it was purely by chance would you say, that you bumped into Colonel Taylor who said or indicated to you that he had a problem with Bhila and, or this person Bhila who had been acquitted and he then asked for your assistance?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chair, can I just clarify here that when we worked in a particular area, be it Durban, Cape Town or wherever, we fell under the command of that Security Branch and we then fell under Colonel Andy Taylor's command and control.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, I understand.  So you would obviously then take orders from him as a matter of routine?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Did you report back to him regarding your activities in that area?

FRANK MCCARTER: Absolutely, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Let me go one step further, were you sent down to Durban to operate under Colonel Taylor?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, we received a request from the various branches for people to come and work in the area and then we'd then fall under ...

ADV PRIOR: Can you recall, I know it's a long time ago, what work you were engaged in up until Colonel Taylor indicated that Bhila had to be eliminated?

FRANK MCCARTER: We were mainly monitoring railway stations, activists houses, that sort of thing, to try and see if there were any MK members that had infiltrated, monitored MK people's homes, sent the Askaris around to the MK people's homes to go and make enquiries as MK members, see if the chap had returned.

ADV PRIOR: And during this time it just so happened that Ramlakan Trial was proceeding, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's how I recall it, yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: We referred to it loosely as the Ramlakan Trial, I think he was accused Number 4, but it was Buthelezi and Nine Others.  Sorry in the indictment it lists 10 accused but be that as it may.  You indicated
that the firearm that you used to kill Bhila was something you drew from Vlakplaas, from the stores there or from the ...

FRANK MCCARTER: Sorry, yes, they were given to us by Eugene de Kock on his knowledge.

ADV PRIOR: And these obviously were not standard issue, they were to used in clandestine operations, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Were they silenced?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: So correct me if I'm mistaken, the fact that you were issued these weapons before your journey to or your trip to Durban, would that necessary imply that somewhere along the line they were to be used?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought his evidence was he was given them some considerable time before, not in connection with this trip.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, yes.

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, that's correct, Mr Chairman, it was sometime before, it wasn't specifically for that purpose, no.

ADV PRIOR: But you took them to Durban specifically to have handy, for want of a better word, in case you required then during your tout of duty down there.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, it sounds very sinister but yes, we did have them in case one of the members had to pretend to be a trained fellow or had to, I don't know,  you know there was various scenarios that one could have used it, not specifically for killing.  That wasn't the initial ...

ADV PRIOR: Well a Baby Browning wouldn't be the sort of standard weaponry of trained MK, would it?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, it wouldn't be.

ADV PRIOR: What I'm driving at is, and I want to suggest to you, is it not closer to the truth that when you went down to Durban on the 10th of February, armed with this light calibre weapon, you at least had some idea that you were going to be required to kill someone in Durban?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know that Mr Rosslee also had a similar weapon to yourself?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Did you ever ask him why he was taking this weapon down to Durban?

FRANK MCCARTER: Eugene de Kock had handed them out to various of us guys at Vlakplaas, so we knew that the guys were carrying them.

CHAIRPERSON: Had Bosch got one?

FRANK MCCARTER: Not that I recall, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Well if you say de Kock issued you one as well as other members, did you ask him what for?  Presumably you had your own standard issue?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, I did have my standard issue.

ADV PRIOR: Well did you ask for the necessity, why was it necessary to take this additional weapon down?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, his explanation as I recall it, was that one always reads these cop stories in America, should you accidentally shoot the wrong person or shoot someone that turns out to be unarmed, you slip a gun underneath him, and I think that was basically the idea of having the extra weapon.

ADV PRIOR: Now I'm curious as to, given your evidence and your background that you sketched for the Committee and on what you were told of Bhila, that he had - I'm not too clear on whether your information that he was acquitted in the Amanzimtoti bomb trial or in a related trial is not clear because your application seems to say one thing and your evidence today another, but we'll leave that.  Were you under the impression that Zondo had been involved in bombings?  Was that your information?

FRANK MCCARTER: Are you saying Zondo or ...

ADV PRIOR: I beg your pardon, Bhila.

FRANK MCCARTER: No, he wasn't directly implicated in any bombings.