Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-09

UNKNOWN: Initially it was I think, Mr Louis Le Grange and after him I think it was Mr Adrian Vlok.  I'm not sure whether there was anybody in-between, but Louis Le Grange and Vlok are the ones I'm referring to.

MR GOOSEN: Would you have had any dealings with either of those Ministers at the time, obviously it's not your day-to-day function, that occurs at a higher level than you which would have placed you in a position to comment on their attitude to the approach adopted by the Security Police during that period?

UNKNOWN: I think there was one occasion when I met Minister Vlok personally.

MR GOOSEN: And on that occasion if you could indicate, would you have from that meeting and from that interaction, would you have gained any insight into the Minister's view in regard to the approach adopted by the Security Police that we've been talking about?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I think this is a very personal question and I would rather not answer this here.

MR GOOSEN: Brigadier I can understand the difficulty but part of the function is to probe and understand, not only the circumstances in which operatives within the Security Police, the security forces functioned at the time, but also the circumstances which have given rise to either authorisation for or approval of particular actions.  If you're able to give an indication from your personal experience as to what you would understand I think that it would be necessary for you to answer the question.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, Minister Vlok visited Vlakplaas one day where he addressed all the people, black and white.  He thanked them for services rendered in the past and he wished them everything of the best with their careers ahead and the services they would render in the future. That provided them with renewed support from his side.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Brigadier.  I don't have any further questions at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ilan Lax.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson. Brigadier you said that Minister Vlok visited Vlakplaas, which other ministers, you mentioned Le Grange as well, which other ministers would have visited Vlakplaas or other politicians would have visited Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: I can't remember whether any other ministers visited Vlakplaas.

MR LAX: And other senior police officers?

UNKNOWN: The Commissioner of Police and some of his senior staff.

MR LAX: That would have been for example, General Coetzee.

UNKNOWN: Yes General Coetzee visited Vlakplaas a few times.

MR LAX: General van der Merwe?

UNKNOWN: General van der Merwe a few times.

MR LAX: People like Engelbrecht?

UNKNOWN: General de Witt.

MR LAX: Was General Smit ever there, Basie Smit?

UNKNOWN: Yes he was there, he came there often,

MR LAX: Any of the others, I asked you about Engelbrecht, you mentioned de Witt when I was asking that.

UNKNOWN: Ja Engelbrecht and I think he only came on the scene later on after I had left.

MR LAX: Thank you.  If there are any others that you remember, if you wouldn't mind through your legal advisers letting us have those details in due course.  If you can just cast your mind back. We don't need to waste time here now.

UNKNOWN: I know all the generals form the Security Branch periodically visited Vlakplaas.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, perhaps I should just from the bar inform you because it seems to me that perhaps you don't know, Vlakplaas isn't a place that is a secluded place somewhere in the bundu, it is basically at Swartkops.  A lot of people went there, with great respect, it's going to be virtually impossible to give you a list, exclusive list of - in fact you could rather assume that most of the generals must have been there at some stage or other.  But we can go into that matter if it's of any importance to you.

MR LAX: No that's fine, my next question is really the more important issue. To what extent would you be in a position to say that all these people that Mr Visser's now referred to and whose names you've mentioned, to what extent were they now familiar with the operations of Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I don't think they were aware of what was going on there.

MR LAX: Let's just differentiate here between general visitors and the senior police officers that visited there, heads of Security Branch, two IC's of Security Branch and so on, would they have been familiar?

UNKNOWN: Yes I think so, because they were the people who controlled the finances.

MR LAX: Thank you Brigadier.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Brigadier, you and I have met in this room previously and I thank you for having come today as you did come that other day. Do I get an indication that I should not release this witness before something has happened?

MR JANSEN: Yes please Mr Chairman, as indicated when I placed myself on record, that we would be seeking an indulgence from this Committee to place certain questions to Mr Schoon which will not relate to any incidents as such but would relate from, or would relate to the perspective of a Vlakplaas operative to the structures above, from Vlakplaas commander to the structures above such a person.

CHAIRPERSON: And you feel that notwithstanding what has been done so far you still need to put the questions?  I'm not preventing you from doing so.

MR JANSEN: No, there are certain aspects which I think has not been dealt with.  I accept that I have only been here at these hearings today so I don't know what's on record as in previous occasions but there are certain matters which I think should be canvassed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, what my learned friend Mr Jansen had just intimated to you, he gave me an undertaking about during lunch time.  I have no basis nor do I wish at this stage to make any objection, the only point Mr Chairman is that I do have to say that we are here on Clauses 1 and 2, vaguely what my learned friend says may fit into paragraph 1 of the Section 29 notices.  I would certainly, I believe that perhaps one should just allow my learned friend to ask a few questions and let's see what the drift of it is and then one can perhaps deal more practically with the issue if it's necessary. Perhaps he has a few questions which we can deal with quickly and get it done with Mr Chairman.

MR GOOSEN: I have no difficulty in the circumstances but I would wish to be able to proceed to our next witness as rapidly as possible, thank you.

UNKNOWN: But may I add Mr Chairman with respect to my learned friend, if it's something that is going to be dealt with at an amnesty application in any event, then I would certainly say it would be a waste of time to do it here.

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson from my side I would agree with that given the format that we've adopted for this hearing as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Jansen I think we should hear you.  You obviously are now aware of the dynamics.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, just to place the structure of Security head office in context. The security head office or headquarters consisted out of eight sections, A to H.  Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: It could have been at that stage.  I know it changed from time to time.  The commanding officer could decide how many sections there should be.  Sometimes these sections were expanded and I think when I left there, there were more than eight.  I'm basing my information on a telephone directory for 1980.

MR JANSEN: These sections consisted out of various subsections?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: Section C consisted out of one subsection and that was C1 at that stage?

UNKNOWN: Yes I think that was Section C and C1.

MR JANSEN: And in 1980 there were only five officers serving under you?

UNKNOWN: That is possible.

MR JANSEN: It is then just to say that Section C was much smaller than for example Sections A, B or D?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman the section was extended after other persons joined this section.