Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The Act, not the Truth Commission Act, but there's a Government Gazette which has been passed dealing with these types of issues particularly for purposes of amnesty.  The position is that if a person has been convicted, he is then the sole custody of the Correctional Services and they must convey him to and from but if he is not, I've just forgot the section but it is in the Government Gazette, he becomes the responsibility of the SAPS, that is in the Gazette.

CHAIRPERSON: Would someone then bring the provisions of that regulation to the attention of South African Police Services and would you make sure that the applicant concerned is brought here tomorrow?

MR MADASA: That will be done Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much for your assistance Sir.
	Yes, you may continue Mr Madasa.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Motlokwa, when we adjourned you were about to relate details of the incident but before we come to that I want us to finish the issue of the divisions between you and the ANC Youth League.  
	Before I even come to that, where were the ANC Youth league members drawn from?  Were they all residents from Moleleki section?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Not all of them.

MR MADASA: Where did the others come from?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Others came from Tabosa, Twala section, for example Daveyton.

MR MADASA: If they came from different places but not from Katlehong, what was the position, were they allowed to patrol with the SDU's?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The people that I talk about, that they came from different sections, they came after the ANC Youth League, severed the relationship with the SDU's.  In the SDU's structures we did not have those kinds of people.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that after the ANC Youth League severed its link with the SDU more members of the ANC Youth League from outside of Katlehong came into Katlehong?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, they came to Moleleki section.

CHAIRPERSON: From Katlehong or from other ...[intervention]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is Katlehong, Moleleki section.

CHAIRPERSON: I know they came to Moleleki section but did they come from other sections of Katlehong or did they only come from outside of Katlehong township?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Some of them came from other sections, like for example, others came from Tabosa in Alberton and then others came from Daveyton.  I'm talking about Benoni, Benoni side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MADASA: What was the other point of dispute between you and the Youth League?  What else caused divisions?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I've already explained that for the fight to start it was because of the ANC Youth Leagues, to loot Spaza shops and to suspect people falsely that they were members of Nkatha.  Those were the causes of the conflict because they didn't want us to examine those facts.

MR MADASA: Did you ever confront them with regards to their criminal activities within the community?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he just say that they refused to be confronted?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: A letter was written to the section because we did not have power to do so.  The SDU's wrote a letter to the section committee, and the Chairperson was Mr Mokweni, so that he will be able to bring those two parties together so that we will be able to discuss these issues.
	This meeting did not happen because the section committee was busy with other meetings.  On the following Monday of the same weekend the letter was written.

MR MADASA: Was there any request that came from taxi associations and businesses to you pertaining the Youth League?  Was there any request made to you by the taxi association and business in that area pertaining the activities of the Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, it was.

MR MADASA: Tell us about that.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The taxi owners who were in Moleleki section came to SDU's to request protection.

MR MADASA: Protection against what?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Because the taxis were shot at and they were taken.  They were requesting that those people, the SDU's should come and protect the taxi ranks so that the community should be safe.  Between the agreement of the SDU's and the taxi associations was formulated and one of the applicants worked in that unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was shooting at the taxis?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Members of the ANC Youth League Sir.

MR MADASA: So you say there was an agreement between the SDU's and the taxi association for some members of the SDU to help the taxi association with patrols?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MADASA: To protect their vehicles.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, even again to protect the community because they did not want to know who the passengers of those kombis were.

MR MADASA: And then what about business?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The business people yes, and again the bakeries were looted.  These people took the confectionery bread from the bakery transport and the business people came to the SDU's so that they should accompany the bakeries when they entered the township. Those people were paid by the bakery company.  I don't know where they came from.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the SDU provide protection to the bakeries?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is correct Sir.

MR MADASA: Now, was there any division between you and the Youth League with regard to perhaps language or their home or origin, say for example some came from Transkei or something like that or ...[indistinct], was there any division of that sort or level of education or the fact that some people came from the township, others came from the rural.  Along those lines, was there any division of that sort?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, it was there Sir.

MR MADASA: Explain it.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: ANC Youth League were saying in many instances that they were not going to be controlled by Xhosa speaking people who came from Transkei.  They would not be allowed to be in the township.

MR MADASA: Were the majority of the SDU members Xhosa speaking?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would say it was 50/50.  Xhosas were there and the ...[indistinct] were there and South Sothos were there but they were saying ANC - SDU belonged to the Xhosas.

MR MADASA: Was there no Xhosa speaking in the Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I have no evidence in that regard Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there a majority of Xhosa speaking Africans within the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

MR MADASA: How were these Xhosa speaking people perceived by the Youth League, what was the problem with them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I did not see any problem according to me, they just regarded the SDU as a Xhosa dominated thing but when go to the rallies they would wear Xhosa traditional dresses.

MR MADASA: My question is, what was the perceived problem from the point of view of the Youth League with the Xhosas who were in the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Maybe their problem is that they were disciplined by the hierarchy of the SDU.

MR MADASA: Who was disciplined?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: ANC Youth League was disciplined.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the members of the ANC Youth League did not like members of the SDU because the members of the ANC Youth League were disciplined by the SDU leadership?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It may be so Mr Chairperson, because they did not like members of the SDU's because SDU's were reprimanding them of things they were doing and they started saying that they were not going to be ruled by the Xhosa speaking people and they belonged to the township.

CHAIRPERSON: So the whole problem started with the SDU leadership attempting to exercise some discipline over the ANC Youth League.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, it started there Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: This was resented by the ANC Youth League?