Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR LAX: The reason I ask this question is that in the Ndaba matter where a similar situation happened, you were at pains in that matter to try and give the impression that Ndaba was being arrested as well.  It just doesn't make sense to me that you would risk your own operative in that way.

ADV BOSMAN: In this specific instance you have already said there was suspicion that she was being sold out.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That the manner in which we arrested her, she would not have necessarily known that Mbane was not being arrested.

MR LAX: Now, I'm still not clear.  I asked Botha this yesterday and I'm going to ask this of you today and the impression I got from him yesterday was that you helped get her out of the car but on your version you clearly didn't.  How did - because you only grabbed her once she was out the car, how did she, who got her out of the car?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson.  I recall that I grabbed her when she was outside the car.

MR LAX: So you don't know if Radebe or Mbane or somebody else forced her out of the car?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you don't know if she struggled in the car, till somebody managed to get her out of the car?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see, because the impression I got of your earlier evidence was that she did struggle earlier but not after you'd got hold of her and put her in the car.  That's how the wording came about.  That was the impression that was created from your answer, because there was no struggle after that point, but there was a struggle before.  That was the impression I got.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Not that I can recall, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I'll be quick, I'm nearly finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Just perhaps while you're considering if I could just ask, did Ms Khubeka have any personal belongings other than the clothing she was wearing, a purse, a handbag, moon bag, whatever?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall anything like that, Chairperson, that she had a bag with her.  My recollection is that she didn't have anything with her.

CHAIRPERSON: The place where the body was dumped, you said it was in an open field, was there long grass there?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: There was grass.

CHAIRPERSON: But not like a soccer field, but long grass.  What I want to know, if somebody was driving past during the day, would they see the body lying in the grass or would it be obscured because the grass was too long?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: One would not be able to see it just from the road, one would have to go into the field to see it.  The grass was long.

CHAIRPERSON: And the place where the body was, the ground, was it flat or was there ditches there, holes?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was flat, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Sorry, Chair, you've covered the aspect I was going to, that was to do with any of her possessions.  Just- you don't know whether any of her possessions remained in the vehicle, the Corolla?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It's possible, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser, do you have any questions arising?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, sorry there's one small issue that doesn't arise from your questioning that I forgot to ask.  I'll be very quick.

MR WILLS: Sorry, you described the size of the deceased as being large.  As regards her height, what would you estimate her height to be?  Was she short?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think she was of average height.

MR WILLS: Well, can I just ask Ms Masetla to stand up please?  Now, can you estimate her height in relation to Ms Masetla?  Is she a similar size?  Our evidence is to the effect that she was a similar height, specifically height, to Ms Masetla, Mrs Masetla, sorry.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It's possible, Chairperson.  The impression that I had was that she was a very large woman and she was very heavy.  Her height, I would say approximately the same height or maybe taller.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mrs Masetla.  The evidence of the family will be that she was a particularly short woman of similar height to Mrs Masetla, although she was quite large.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MR VISSER: Can we now know how tall Ms Masetla is, otherwise the whole exercise is meaningless.

CHAIRPERSON: I was going to ask, does Mrs Masetla have any idea as to what her own height is?

MR WILLS: 1.58 seems to be coming from the gallery.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that right, Mrs Masetla?  1.58 you would agree with?  Yes.  Mr Visser do you have any questions arising?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman.  Perhaps we can ascertain the exact length of Mrs Masetla.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Nel,

MR NEL: I have no questions, Mr chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Botha?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BOTHA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: I see it's now lunch time, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think if we could just finish questions arising, it shouldn't take too long.  It's only on matters arising and then we'll take the lunch adjournment, instead of ...

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  There was just something that I didn't put to this witness.

MR SAMUEL: Major, according to Mr Mbane, when the body was removed from the room, Mr Myeza also assisted in removing that body.  Do you recall that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Now on a question from Adv Bosman very early in your cross-examination, she asked you whether you knew that Ms Khubeka was becoming suspicious and your response was that you cannot recall.  Do you remember that?  Do you remember your response to that question?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall my answer but I did not question the people, I did not question Mbane and the others.  What I heard, from what they reported to Botha, I heard from Botha and I may just add that I cannot recall that it was specifically said that she had become suspicious.

MR SAMUEL: Is it possible then Sir that this information was passed to Mr Botha and you don't recall it?  It's not that it never occurred?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It's possible.

MR SAMUEL: A question was put to Mr Botha and I'd like to put this same question to you.  What would have happened if Ms Khubeka did not co-operate with you all and if she had not suffered a heart attack, an alleged heart attack, what would you all have done to her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she would probably have been detained to question her.

MR SAMUEL: Yes, you finished questioning her, she hasn't co-operated at all, what would have happened to her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: She would have been detained.

MR SAMUEL: Indefinitely?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.  There were sections for such cases, Section 29.

MR SAMUEL: So you would have used Section 29, despite the fact that she knew the askaris now?  She knew that she'd been sold out.  She knew that she was abducted and she also knew your secret hide-out, are you saying that you would have just invoked Section 29 in detaining her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was a possibility.  It was also a possibility of releasing her.

MR SAMUEL: Did you go to Ms Khubeka's house at any stage prior to this?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the questions arising, or what, Mr Samuel?  You've been given an opportunity to cross-examine?

MR SAMUEL: Sorry, this question did arise, it's a question arising from cross-examination.  Did you go to her house?  You told us you knew the address in the section where she lived in.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR SAMUEL: Did you go to her house?