Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

MR MOSES: Now reference was also made of the fact that surely you must have had ample time to reconsider your role as an Askari within the S A Police and within the Security Police specifically.  Why then did you - was there any opportunity for you, not only to consider that, but to flee, to run away from this whole Vlakplaas operations from what you have been, to what you have been exposed or what you have learned what has happened there, couldn't you just run away and turn your back on it?

JIMMY MBANE: Who am I because it's always possible for them to go and get a person who is in London and kill him, who am I if I think I can escape that type of situation.  Whereas these people can even kidnap a person who is in Swaziland or Soweto or Lesotho.  I had no option, there was no way for me to run away.

MR MOSES: Are you telling the Committee then that you, because you knew the capabilities of the Vlakplaas operatives and their sophistication that it would be impossible for you to really run away from Vlakplaas operation if one could refer to it in those broad terms?

JIMMY MBANE: That is the reason why because I knew their operations.

MR MOSES: You have also been cross-examined extensively at the pleasure of Mr Booyens about the incident on the 3rd of the third month, 1986.  Now, did the Committee understand you clearly and correctly to mean to testify that Mr Bellingan as your commander at least Mr Bellingan, he knew about the plan about the attack which was supposed to take place on the police bus on that specific morning?

JIMMY MBANE: I told him

MR MOSES: We also understood your evidence to mean that he was also aware of the place where that attack is going to take place?

JIMMY MBANE: I showed him the place.

MR MOSES: Did we also understand you correctly to mean that Mr Bellingan was also aware of the number of people who were involved?  Who would be involved on that specific day?  The number of people from your group?

JIMMY MBANE: He knew, I told him about it.

MR MOSES: And are we further also led to believe that Mr Bellingan knew about the capacity, the weapon firing capacity, with which your group, yourself and your group, were equipped, in other words, he knew about the weapons and arms at your disposal?

MR BOOYENS: My Lord just very briefly, the value of questions in re-examination in the first place, my learned friend really shouldn't lead as much as he's doing at the moment but in any case one could also of course consider the value of the answers given to questions like this.  I think my learned friend should perhaps try to let the witness give the evidence himself, if he doesn't mind.

MR MOSES: Mr Chairman, the evidence I'm going through with the witness now, there is already testimony to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is there any point in going through it.  If it is testimony that is not challenged, there's no point in going through it again, if it is challenged, you shouldn't be leading.

MR MOSES: I will try then not to lead because I believe Mr Chairperson that those are really aspects which are, or the circumstances around that are in dispute and I just need to clear that with the witness in taking him through that.  I will try then not to lead the witness.
	Mr Mbane, the vehicle which you were supposed to use on that specific day, the particulars of that vehicle, did you give that to anyone?  The particulars of the vehicle which you were going to use during the attack on the police.

JIMMY MBANE: I only told Bellingan and Liebenberg that we have already stolen the car, it's with us.  I told my commander.

MR MOSES: ....specific aspect of that vehicle, a description of that vehicle which you gave to Mr Bellingan and Liebenberg?  Any peculiar thing through which that vehicle could have been identified as the vehicle which you were going to use?

JIMMY MBANE: I told him about the colour of the car and the registration numbers and I told them that it's a car from the bakery, it's closed.

MR MOSES: Just a last aspect.  You have been confronted with the different versions which you have given or rather the answer you have given provided to the question posed by my learned friend, Mr Booyens, yesterday, with regards to your place of residence here in Cape Town and the presence or otherwise of Mr Zanzile Khoisan and you seem to have told a lie, that is how it was put to you to this Committee with regards to the place where you and Mr Khoisan would be staying.  The specific point was Mr Mbane were that you lied, that Mr Khoisan and yourself are not staying at the same hotel.  Why would you try to hide that information from this Committee?  Why would you try to hide the fact that Mr Khoisan is staying in the same hotel that you are staying?

JIMMY MBANE: As I have already told you, I stay with him but not in the same room. If I can tell here the name of the hotel, it will mean that I don't have protection anymore.  By hiding the place where I stay I am protecting myself because no-one is protecting me, I'm protecting myself.  That is the reasons why I didn't reveal that type of information.

MR MOSES: Would you just give me one minute, Mr Chairman, I think I'm almost finished.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I am indebted for your indulgence, I have no more further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOSES

CHAIRPERSON: Well this witness can then stand down.  Does this conclude the evidence?
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, there's just one aspect, perhaps my learned colleague Ms Patel can help us.  At the conclusion of proceedings in November I indicated if there was a statement for the 17th November, taken a further statement from the witness I would like to see it.  I accept my learned friend wasn't given to that, I accept her word one hundred percent without any qualification but is there perhaps, can she just inform us is there any explanation why that statement was only made available to us at such a late stage seeing that it was taken at the end of the proceedings in November?  It's of course maybe relevant because there does seem to be something one feels uncomfortable about here.

CHAIRPERSON: It was taken at the beginning of proceedings in November on the 17th.

MR BOOYENS: I'm indebted to your Lordship, I said the, in
fact at the end of the proceedings I said I would like a copy.  My learned friend didn't know about it for some or other reason and subject to correction I seem to recall the investigating officer certainly having been in the, present in the proceedings, on a number of occasions, I cannot specifically say he was present then, I can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel can you answer that?

MS PATEL: Well unfortunately I can merely reiterate the position that the statement was not in my possession and that was the position.  Unless you want an explanation from the investigating officer, however, I am not sure it is going to take the matter much further but if my learned friend insists then perhaps we should call Mr Khoisan.

CHAIRPERSON: Well can I add something to that. I understand the position to be from the witness, that he was given the statement on the Tuesday morning, a copy, where are we today, Thursday.  On Wednesday morning one of the staff of the TRC obtained the original from Mr Khoisan.

MR BOOYENS: I'm indebted to you my Lord.

UNKNOWN: Now can you be comfortable with that Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Let's say I can live with it, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further witnesses?

MR BOOYENS: No thank you Mr Chairman, we're done.

UNKNOWN: We're not calling any witnesses, your worship.