Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-17

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: A person like a traffic officer is a trained individual and during that time I was a bit young, I could not have been able to do what you are asking me.  He was well trained and he was of big build, that's why I asked him not to move.  I wouldn't have been able to manhandle him or do anything of that sort.

MR LAX: There were two of you though and one of him.

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So why didn't you both grab him rather than kill him?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Even if we could try to do that, that person was a mature person and that place was alongside the road and there was a flow of traffic.  We wanted to speed up things.

MR LAX: So did you shoot him because to try and grab him and keep him quiet and stop him from doing anything would have taken too long?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: No, the reason why I shot him, because I had already explained to him that he should not move so that Doctor could come closer to him and take the gun out from him.  But he reached out for his gun, that is the reason why I shot him.  There was nothing else I could have done.

MR LAX: Where was his gun?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: It was on the left-hand side inside a holster.

MR LAX: Had he taken it out of its holster?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: What made him to shoot me was that I saw his hand reaching for his gun and I shot him.

MR LAX: Do you remember how many times you shot him?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Please tell us.

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Once.

MR LAX: In court you mentioned that your brother was present during this incident.

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: No, I never said that.  I don't remember having said that.

MR LAX: You said your brother introduced you to Moss.

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Yes, I did say that, but that was not true.

MR LAX: And then you spoke about your brother coming on this mission.  Was that also not true?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Yes, that wasn't true.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo?  Yes, Ms Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: You mentioned that you were, in your affidavit - in fact let me just ask you this way.  What kind of training did you get as an APLA member?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: I was trained by my commander in the use of weapons, the cleaning thereof, how to handle bombs and how to use them.

ADV SIGODI: And where did this training take place?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Where I was staying together with Moss, my commander.  We were staying at an outside room or backyard room.

ADV SIGODI: So this training took place in that backyard room, is that what you're telling us?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Yes, that's where it took place, in the room where we were staying.

ADV SIGODI: No, I thought he said "qha".  I don't know if ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: No, I said didn't it take place anywhere else besides the room.  So he said, "No, it took place only in the room"

ADV SIGODI: Oh.  And was it only Moss who was training you or were there other people who were training you?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: It was Moss only.

ADV SIGODI: And was it only Moss who told you who were the enemies of the PAC?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Did you attend any meetings with the PAC?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: No, we never did.

ADV SIGODI: Were you educated about the strategy of APLA and how it's going to operate?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: No, I wasn't.  A number of things hadn't yet been told to me besides the ones that I've already explained.

ADV SIGODI: And at the time that you killed this traffic officer how long had you been staying with Moss?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: It could have been a month or more, but it was quite some time.

ADV SIGODI: In other words, you only stayed with him a month and at the time you knew what the general order was and what was expected of you?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Yes, as I had already explained, that I cannot pin myself down as to the length of time that we had stayed with my commander before the execution of this order.

ADV SIGODI: And your commander didn't have his own place, he actually asked for accommodation from you?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Yes, that is correct.  That is what he relayed to me, that he had a problem with regard to accommodation and I sympathised with him and pointed out to him that I would talk to the owners of the yard so that we could stay together in that yard.

ADV SIGODI: Did he tell you where he came from?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: He never explained as to where he was coming from within South Africa, but he had told me that he was from the African States.

ADV SIGODI: Did he say which African State he came from?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Yes, he did.

ADV SIGODI: Which one?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: He said he was from Tanzania.

ADV SIGODI: Did he say where he came from before he came to stay with you?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: No, he never explained to me.

ADV SIGODI: And you had never seen him before?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: No.

ADV SIGODI: So after shooting the - okay, I just want to understand this.  When you say you went home because you could not find the target, you say that, "Moss ordered us to go to our respective places".  Where did Moss go?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: As I was staying with Moss at my place, he went to where we were staying, that is the two of us.

ADV SIGODI: So after you finished shooting the traffic cop and you went home where was Moss?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: He was in the room and I told him what we had done.

ADV SIGODI: And what did he do?  What did he say to you after that?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: He asked me as to whether there was anyone who identified us.  I told him that I did not take notice of that as to whether there was any eyewitness or any person who had seen what had happened.

ADV SIGODI: All right.  Where was the gun which you took from the traffic officer at that time?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: As we were running from the scene of the crime, the gun was with Doctor.  When we got to the room Doctor handed the gun to the commander.

ADV SIGODI: And after he handed the gun to the commander what did the commander do with the gun?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Immediately thereafter Lulamile Khwankwa arrived and he told us that we should not keep the gun there because he had seen a young boy who was talking to the police and he suspected that within a few minutes the police would be coming.  We collected all the arms that we had and put them inside a sports bag and we left the place.

ADV SIGODI: Who left the place?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: It was myself, Lulamile Khwankwa, Doctor, as well as the commander Moss, Mbuzeni Zulu.

ADV SIGODI: Why didn't Mbuzeni Zulu go with you?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Mbuzeni Zulu was going to give us a place of abode or some hide-out so that we could evade the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me check that.  Mr Mapoma, I assume that this person that's being referred to, his name only arose now in the course of this testimony.

MR MAPOMA: Pardon, Chair, I didn't hear?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Mr Zulu.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I didn't get you well now.  What is the position?

CHAIRPERSON: He's not somebody whose name had arisen at an earlier stage and who had been given notice?

MR MAPOMA: No, sir, he has not been notified.  In fact he just crops up in this testimony, his name.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  We can deal with that.

ADV SIGODI: Of what interest was this to Mbuzeni Zulu?  Was he also an APLA member?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: No, he wasn't.  He wasn't a member of the PAC or APLA, but he offered to give us a place or a hide-out where we could stay in order to evade arrest.