Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR MASUPA: Then, after that the door was, whilst  I was still at the bedroom the door was opened, then I ran to the police station to look for help.  Then I came back with the ambulance.

MR BLACK: Okay, now before you get there, before you get there, the door, when you always refer to the door, you're talking about the kitchen door, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

MR BLACK: So you ran through the flames in - the kitchen was full of flames, burning?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.  Then I went straight to the police station to look for help.  They took me to the ambulance station, then I came back with the two ambulance cars, then we took two children.  Then our neighbours were already there to help us.  We took them to the hospital.

MR BLACK: Right.  Now tell me, were you injured at all?

MR MASUPA: Yes, yes, I was injured Sir.

MR BLACK: Well can you explain what injuries you suffered?

MR MASUPA: I was burnt on the face and then flesh was removed from my hands, then I was burnt on the lower parts of my body.  I stayed three months in hospital.

MR BLACK: Those are still scars that is on your hands and your face, is that right?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

MR BLACK: And your eyes, what happened to that?

MR MASUPA: My right eye was damaged, then they put me a new eye, or a false eye.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now, the evidence of Mr Ndlovu was that when he entered that house, he after he spent some time in that house trying to persuade the occupants of that house, to evacuate that house and he explained what they intended
to do to the house and that is why you must all get out.  His evidence was that he - it wasn't just a brief time, he explained over, he made several attempts to get you out of the house before setting the house alight, did that happen?

MR MASUPA: No, Sir, that is not true.

MR BLACK: Did he make any attempt that you saw to go into the house to get the children out of the house, persuade any other of the occupants to remove themselves from the house?

MR MASUPA: No Sir, they didn't waste time after they arrived in the house.  They didn't waste time.  They just came and did what they intended to do.  They didn't even give us a chance to go out.  If they gave us a chance to go out, we could not have been injured.

MR BLACK: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Who were they who came into the house, you say they didn't waste time?

MR MASUPA: My late sister who told us the saying Vusi, which means it is Vusi is the one who is called Absalom Gobela.  That is the one whom my sister called his name, that is the one I was able to identify.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you remember you gave evidence at the trial?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And there you said there were two people who came into the house Vusi and Phineas.

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, now you've told us the only one you know was your sister called us Vusi?  Which is the correct...

MR MASUPA: The truth is that she called Vusi because she said to Vusi what do you want, let us talk.  Phineas at that time was with him, there were two people who were in the house.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, did you see him?

MR MASUPA: Phineas?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR MASUPA: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you a few minutes ago say that you didn't, that the only person that you saw there, the only person you could identify as being there was Vusi because your sister called out his name, that is how I understood your evidence?

MR MASUPA: She called Vusi's name and Phineas was together with him, she didn't call Phineas, but they were two.  She didn't say Vusi, Phineas, she said Vusi, but they were together.

ADV DE JAGER: Would it be correct if I say you didn't know Phineas' name before or did you know his name?

MR MASUPA: Phineas?

ADV DE JAGER: ;	Yes.

MR MASUPA: Yes, he grew in the area, I know him.

ADV DE JAGER: So you knew him?  Were you in fact able to see him there?

MR MASUPA: Do you mean Phineas?

ADV DE JAGER: When were you able to see him, weren't the lights out?  When did you recognise him?

MR MASUPA: When they entered the house, they entered when it was dark and when they said Mantha, it is when they switched on the lights, then Mantha called his, Vusi's name.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But Sir, when you got to the kitchen, you saw two people and you were able to remember that one of them was Vusi  because  Mantha  called  his name.  Were you able to recognise Phineas Ndlovu, who grew up in front of you?

MR MASUPA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you can today say with certainty that he was in the kitchen on that night, that him and Phineas, no Phineas Ndlovu and Vusi Gobela were in the kitchen on the 2nd of July, that night?

MR MASUPA: Yes, both of them were in the kitchen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you perhaps make a mistake during the trial when you only mentioned Vusi and you failed to mention Phineas.

JUDGE WILSON: He mentioned Phineas in the trial.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You only mentioned Phineas Ndlovu.

JUDGE WILSON: He mentioned both of them at the trial.

SISI KHAMPEPE: He did, oh?

JUDGE WILSON: He mentioned both of them in the trial, he didn't mention Phineas before us today.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Oh, okay.  Sorry, I thought it was the other way around, I thought my Committee member had said that you had not mentioned Phineas Ndlovu at the trial.

JUDGE WILSON: You mentioned Phineas at the trial, you did not mention Phineas earlier in your evidence, is that not the position?  Here today you did not mention Phineas until I began questioning you.

MR MASUPA: I was explaining to the Committee that both of them entered the house.  Vusi is the one who was being
called by my sister and Phineas was with him.

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you perhaps mention Vusi because Mantha had called Vusi by name?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Ma'am.

MR BLACK: Right, Mr Masupa, you were satisfied and you
testified at the trial that there were at least these two people in the kitchen, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: That is true, Sir.

MR BLACK: Okay.  But did you go to the kitchen?

MR MASUPA: Yes, I went to the kitchen.

MR BLACK: At what stage did you go?  At what time did you go to that kitchen?  Did you go into the kitchen?

MR MASUPA: Yes, I went to the kitchen whilst Mantha said the petrol, we are smelling petrol in the kitchen.

MR BLACK: Okay, so you heard her say that and then you went to go and investigate, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: That is true.

MR BLACK: Now, the important point is at no time did any of those two people who had entered your house, attempt to persuade you or any other member inside that house, to vacate the house before the petrol was set alight, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: That is correct, they never gave us time to be out of the house.

MR BLACK: Yes, okay.  Now, you suffered extensive burn injuries, you've lost the sight of your eye.  What about personal belongings inside that house, what happened to them?

MR MASUPA: The property was damaged in the house and the house was also burnt.

MR BLACK: When you say damaged, what do you mean?  Completely burnt out?

MR MASUPA: We couldn't use them any more, they were completely burnt.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now there are one or two other issues I just want to clear up with you.  As far as Mantha or
Christina, your late sister is concerned, was she a political activist and a student?

MR MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And was she regarded as a comrade?

MR MASUPA: Yes, she was regarded as a comrade.

MR BLACK: And as far as - what standard was she in then?

MR MASUPA: She was doing standard 9.

MR BLACK: Standard 9, right.  You've heard the evidence of Mr Ndlovu and it has been explained to you that we will get an opportunity to ask him questions on that, further questions.  But Mr Ndlovu says that he was also in standard 9 and at Davey High School.  Do you know if he was at school?  He was your neighbour.