Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: As I've explained before I do not know why Judge MacNally did not charge them.  What Mate is saying I cannot agree to or oppose to, I just gave my evidence.  I was told that I was implicated in the crime and if I did not tell the truth I will be prosecuted but if I told the truth the Court would accept my evidence.  If my evidence was unreliable I should have been prosecuted as promised earlier.
	It was explained to me that the people were not charged for that crime and because I'm not a prosecutor I cannot explain why.  I do not even know up to this day why the Attorney-General did not prosecute these 
people.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, whilst we're on this issue I put it to you that Mr Mate denies that he was involved in the pension offence as you allege he was.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I say Mr Mate was indeed involved.  He even mentioned that he signs for the cheque from the bank and he mentioned the amount that the people carry to Nxeto(?) and even with regards to the issue at Sendisweni it was his instruction to go rob that place.  He is directly involved in these scams.
	There were two cars, he was in the second car but he did not shoot when these robbers started attacking.  He is a criminal and he was involved in these  incidents.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, to move onto another issue, would you please look at your affidavit and in particular I'd like to you to look at page 11.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can refer to the paragraph number.  I don't think Mr Gwamanda has got the bundle numbers in his affidavit.

MR FALCONER: Yes, certainly, Mr Chairman.  Paragraph 10.  Now I'm going to read to you the relevant sentence.  It's the last sentence that you will see on the one page which reads as follows
"Lieutenant Venter told us that if the attack of Matthew Phosa who is now a Premier, is successful, we would be given a reward for that work."
Do you remember this as being part of your statement which you deposed to under oath?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, I did and I've mentioned it here when I spoke of Venter.  He did say that after we'd carried out the job we would get a certain reward.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, what did you understand that reward to be?  Would it be in the form of money?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: There was nothing else except money.  When I talk of a reward I'm just saying that he did not refer to a specific amount but he did say that we would get a reward of money.

MR FALCONER: And no doubt you were quite happy to learn that you would be rewarded for your efforts?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: At the time there was no other alternative because I was working with him, I had to be happy.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, I would like to then refer you to an affidavit deposed to by Milton Begukwaki Gumede ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what page is this on, Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: 40.

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker repeat the page?

CHAIRPERSON: 40.  Do you have a copy of that affidavit, Mr Gwmanda?  It's an affidavit by one, Milton Begukwaki Gumede.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I have it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your one written or typed?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: It is typed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now you will recall, Mr Gwamanda, it would seem that what is contained in this affidavit refers to an offence which you have referred to pertaining to the attempted murder of a taxi owner in the Ndwedwe area, would you agree?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, I do, that's correct.

MR FALCONER: You'll see at paragraph 3 of that same affidavit, Mr Gumede states
"There were - the culprits robbed us of cash, plus minus R300,00 and my brother's kombi, a blue Toyota Hi-Ace."
And then he gives the registration number.  Would you agree with what's contained there?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: With regards to the cash I cannot comment on that because I was behind the steering wheel.  I don't know anything about the money but with regards to the kombi, the Toyota High-Ace with that registration number, I would say it must have been the one that overturned.
	I was only trying to explain the objectives, the reasons for going there. I was not alone when that incident occurred.  If he remembers correctly, I was behind the steering wheel and the people that I that I was with will also know that I'm telling the truth. 
	I am not denying that money have been lost or taken but I was just explaining the reasons as to why we went to that house.  There is nothing that I can agree or deny.  All I know is that the kombi overturned and I did not take any money from the scene.  That is what I was trying to explain.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, how did you manage to overturn a kombi while you're reversing it?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Thank you, Chairperson.  I think I was in a state of shock because a gun had been fired, I heard gunfire.  Throughout my life you'd notice that I had never killed somebody.  I was shocked went off or when this person was shot.  And he also said that he was dying and therefore I was in shock.  I think it was because I was in shock.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
	Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	As the Chairman has correctly pointed out, Mr Gwamanda, in your affidavit you state and I'll read from your affidavit:
"As I reversed this kombi it overturned and we got out and ran away."
Now from that, would it be correct to infer that it was your intention to depart with that kombi owned by Mr Gumede?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: As I explained before we did not have transport.  Mfayela had just dropped us there and he had instructed us to take the kombi and use it later on.  Therefore we did have the intention of taking the kombi, using it and use it to shoot around the area and then we would burn it thereafter but then it happened that it overturned.  I could have taken the other kombi in the yard but because I was in a state of shock I decided to run away.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, please help me then.  Do I understand your evidence to be that you are not a position to deny that R300,00 might have been taken and do I understand further correctly, that it was your intention to remove that kombi to use at a later stage?  If you could keep your answer to a brief yes or no please.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, it was my intention.  It was the instruction of Mr Mfayela that we should take the kombi, so it was not just my intention.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, from your evidence it would seem that most of these offences, including this attack on Mr Gumede and that in regard to the pension robbery and it would seem the offence for which you were convicted and you are presently incarcerated, all took place within a relatively short space of time, would you agree with me?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I do not want to involve the ...[indistinct], it was not political.  I do not know that area very well but whatever criminal activities took place there were under the instruction of Mr Mfayela.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, if you could please just try and answer my question.  You've got to try and assist this Committee in your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: The question asked by Mr Falconer, Mr Gwamanda, is this incident that you refer to relating to the taxi owner and the offence for which you were charge and convicted, for which you are presently serving, although we know your attitude about that, but the allegations relating to that as well the pension scheme, did they all happen within a short period of time?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That is correct.