Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And when I mean deaths, I mean assassinations.  It was not the business of these honourable South African Security Forces to assassinate people, that was the lie.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And the story that was given out to the public in South Africa and the world was that there may be a few rotten apples who act independently and the politicians and the leaders of the Army are blameless for these acts.  Was that the answer that was given to the public?

EDWARD WEBB: I think that was the impression created for the benefit of the public.

GEORGE BIZOS: And wouldn't it have been an absolute negation of that assertion if Generals admitted to being in the barrel of rotten apples?

EDWARD WEBB: Butt his General was not involved in any killings, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

EDWARD WEBB: You're talking generally.  Let us look at my application please.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, no, please we'll come to - we'll firstly talk about it in general and then come ...(indistinct) particular, you can rest assured about this.  But is the proposition correct, that it would be a sorry sight if Generals appear to be mixed up in the barrel of rotten apples?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And do you agree that under public pressure, President de Klerk appointed the Harms Commission in order to investigate these allegations, hoping, I suppose, that all these allegations would be dispelled?

EDWARD WEBB: The Harms Commission investigated alleged murders.

GEORGE BIZOS: Assassinations or murders, yes.  Now the evidence of Mr Barnard, or rather the statements of Mr Barnard and thereafter Mr van Zyl, if true at the time, would have brought about to public knowledge that the Head of the Army - well taken with other documents, they would show that there was State involvement at least in attempted murders.  Would you agree with that?

EDWARD WEBB: Are you talking about the Head of the Army?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, I've withdrawn that part ...(intervention

EDWARD WEBB: Then just give me the question again please.

GEORGE BIZOS: Ja, we'll take it step by step, that if those statements were true, it would show that there were elements in the Army which were responsible for at least unsuccessful attempts at assassination.

EDWARD WEBB: Not in the Army, but in Special Forces.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well isn't that a portion of the Army?

EDWARD WEBB: No, it's part of the Defence Force.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh I see, alright, it's a distinction that we will bear in mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, sorry, when it's a convenient time we'll take the tea adjournment, I see it's ten past eleven.

GEORGE BIZOS: It may be now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a twenty minute tea adjournment, thank you.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

EDWARD WEBB: (s.u.o.)

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	You told us that one of the reasons why you lied to Judge Harms, was to protect the Army or the Defence Force.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chair.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did it not occur to you that you may be defeating the ends of justice in trying to protect the interests of the Defence Force or the Army?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chair, because the acts which the CCB had committed were all revealed at the Harms Commission Inquiry.  The level on which it was approved, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And why did you lie to Justice Stegman in the Webster Inquest?

EDWARD WEBB: For the same reason.

GEORGE BIZOS: To protect the Army?

EDWARD WEBB: To protect the Defence Force.

GEORGE BIZOS: But hadn't the Army's role in covert activities been exposed after the Harms Commission?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, but there had been as yet no court case or evidence had not yet been tested.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, we'll come to that.  But now let's just stay with the Harms Commission for a moment.  Who were your counsel?

EDWARD WEBB: Adv Hattingh and with him was Adv Wessels.

GEORGE BIZOS: And who was your attorney?

EDWARD WEBB: Havenga.

GEORGE BIZOS: The State Attorney's office?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I don't know from which office.  I think it was a private company.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Havenga.  Yes.  And who were the legal representatives of Mr Verster?

EDWARD WEBB: The same people.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you the only General that the represented or were there other Generals?

EDWARD WEBB: I was the only one, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Mr Verster had the same legal team?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any attempt to reconcile the versions that were going to be given to the Commission by Mr Verster on the one hand and you on the other, so that you could present a united front to the Commission, the two of you?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it just an accident that you denied that you knew anything about Omar and Evans and Mr Verster claimed privilege for those events, so that there would not be any apparent contradictions between the two of you, so that you could retain the same legal team?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any discussion at any stage, by you or your fellow officers, your fellow Generals, that there must be a cut-off point, that no senior Army officer should be involved, "If there was rot to come out, let's put the blame on those who had come from the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad", who were not members of the Defence Force or the Army and in any event they did not enjoy the reputation that the officers and gentlemen of the Army enjoyed?  Was there any such conscious decision made, that there should be a cut-off point in relation to internal assassinations?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see the role of the Army was documented in a document, which was suppressed at the time by you and your fellow Generals - who was the Head of the Army at that stage?

EDWARD WEBB: Gen Liebenberg.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was it?

EDWARD WEBB: Gen Liebenberg.

GEORGE BIZOS: And before him?

EDWARD WEBB: Gen Geldenhuys.

GEORGE BIZOS: And who was the Head of the Army on the 28th of April 1987?

EDWARD WEBB: '87?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Three years before, or a year before you were made the Head of CCB.

EDWARD WEBB: I think it was Gen Geldenhuys.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Gen Joubert was your predecessor in the CCB's chairmanship?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there a trust between you and Gen Joubert?  General to General, so to speak.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: He would not have kept any secrets from you.

EDWARD WEBB: In Special Forces it happens that you don't talk about what happened in the past.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but you know, he surely wouldn't have had any secrets from you in relation to what I might describe as the Constitution of the CCB", the kernel document as to what it was supposed to do?  He would have had no reason to hide that fact from you.

EDWARD WEBB: He didn't tell me about any prior operations.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, no, we're not talking about operations, we are talking about what the CCB was supposed to do and what the attitude of the Army was to killing people in South Africa.  He had no reason to hide that from you.

EDWARD WEBB: He never discussed anything of that nature with me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he have any reason, wouldn't you have considered un-comradely conduct, so to speak, or un-general conduct, for him to keep from you what the real purpose of the Army was? - of the CCB was, which was a creature of the Army or the Defence Force, have it as you will.

EDWARD WEBB: He didn't discuss any previous operation with me, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Bizos is asking you is, he's established first of all, that you and Gen Joubert trusted each other, was there any reason why he should not tell you everything about what the purpose of the CCB was?  What it was there for.

EDWARD WEBB: There was no reason for that.