Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct, Chairperson, my father told me in the presence of the police.

MR MALAN: And you also tell us that the reason why you did it, one is because of the assaults, but also because the police already knew everything, because they spoke to the others?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct.

MR MALAN: So you had nothing to conceal?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, at that stage they already knew everything at that stage, after they interviewed and interrogated the other men, and also because they had made statements.

MR MALAN: So at that stage it was an honest version of what you thought happened that night?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, I wouldn't say it was honest, I wouldn't say this is the truth, because I left a lot out.

MR MALAN: No, with regards to what you said, there's nothing you said here that you lied about, with regards to what you can remember?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, as I've said, there could be mistakes in this statement.

MR MALAN: Can you remember any mistakes?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: With regard to this specific one, the one where I said at the roadblock, let me just make sure where exactly this is written - sorry, Chairperson - I can't see what I was thinking about now where there might have been a mistake, but I did make mistakes in this statement, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But please tell us which mistakes?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, the fact that it was said at the roadblock that we're going to pull off taxis, that was not the truth.   What it comes down to here is that firstly we would go to General Martin's smallholding and there planned to have a roadblock.

MR MALAN: And if you say that's not the truth, why did you say it then?   Is there a reason why you did not tell the truth?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, at that stage, really, you were scared there, and the people are assaulting you while they're questioning you, and then they show you how Kloppers looked after he was shocked and he was tubed.

MR MALAN: No, I'm talking about when you were writing, you weren't assaulted while you were taking down a statement?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No.

MR MALAN: And to speak in specific details, you start and you talk about the party that you had during the weekend and the fact that one of the people stayed over at your place, and then the Sunday afternoon you were tired and you went to bed?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, Chairperson, but that's got nothing to do with the case.   It was unnecessary to even say that.

MR MALAN: My question is this, does it have nothing to do with the case or not, because you said Kloppers and his wife and their children, Visser, Martin and others, you can't remember all of them, all of them had a party at your house, "Visser stayed over at my house", and the question I would like to ask is, did you drink during that party?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, to be honest, I cannot tell you if that party was the night before, or it might have been at a more previous occasion.   I cannot really tell you if it happened the night before or if it happened before.

MR MALAN: It is quite obvious then that your memory then must have been better, because this was taken down a few weeks after the incident?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, I wouldn't say my memory was better then, I was very confused and I was scared when I made this statement.

MR MALAN: But your memory isn't any better now either?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson... (intervention).

MR MALAN: It's a deliberate remark.   You said that at the roadhouse, you said
"At the roadhouse we planned to pull off a kaffir taxi and to search the people for weapons and then to shoot them."
And later you talk about something and say that the plan was once again discussed in detail.   Why would you make the distinction?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: As I've already said to you, Chairperson, at the roadblock, sorry, no I'm getting confused, at the roadhouse we were told that the revolution was about to begin that night and that it was the real McCoy and that there should be bodies, and at that stage nothing was said to us concerning how we'd go about it, that was all we were told, and the question with regards to the roadblock was only discussed at Deon Martin's smallholding in detail, and about how we'd go about it.

MR MALAN: Yes, I've heard that, I just want to know why it doesn't coincide with the statement?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Now - I explained it to you now.

MR MALAN: Can I take you back to two other things?   Firstly, when you shot at the crossing, firstly you testified with regards to the training and also the training you've given, the handling of weapons, firing and moving, and you also said you stood in a line?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And you fired?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you decide who was going to shoot at who?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, Chairperson, every person, no-one was told who to shoot, we just shot.

MR MALAN: But you stand in a line, and I assume behind the people or in front of the people, where were you, before or... (intervention).

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: We were standing in front of them.

MR MALAN: And you stand in a line and they're sitting in a line, and the amount of people are ten victims, or there are ten people sitting there and nine people shooting, is that correct?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes.

MR MALAN: We did not assume that you would stand across from a specific person?    You said they sat next to each other?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, it could be the case, Chairperson, but I cannot say who the others shot, it was a very confused shooting and I do not know how to describe it.   When the first shot went, everybody started firing.

MR MALAN: But you stood in a line, is that correct, and they sat in a line, that was the evidence of everybody else?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes.

MR MALAN: And according to your testimony the distance you stood from them was about two metres.   Wouldn't then one make the assumption or can you not remember that you must have been standing opposite a specific individual?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, it is so, we stood in front of them.

MR MALAN: And you obviously would have shot at the person sitting in front of you?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: If you think about it logically, yes it had to be like that, but I cannot tell you if that was in fact the case.

MR MALAN: If you stood in a line, because this is another question, you would remember that the evidence at the trial was that the shooting just simply started after the first shot was fired, it wasn't a line, it was unexpected, there was evidence to that effect?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, we stood in front of the people.

MR MALAN: Also in your evidence you used, and you said that Kloppers rapped the people on their heads and you said some of them were tough?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And you even smiled when you tried to answer that, because you were looking for understanding, you said that they helped them along?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, Chairperson, they were tough.

MR MALAN: They didn't co-operate?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, they didn't co-operate, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But how does he rap them?   Did he not assault them?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, I don't know how to describe it.   In the prison I see much worse things than that.   He walked behind them and say, for example, they gave him a sarcastic answer, he hit them with the baton on the head.

MR MALAN: He hit them with the baton on the head?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, rapped, or hit.