Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-07

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman may we then proceed with the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court Bombing, it's for argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Landman?

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman before I proceed with the (indistinct) written Heads of Argument which were supplied to the Committee, I understand, a few minutes ago.  Mr Chairman may I deal with one matter, it arises from certain press reports which have appeared in the last two days and they concern the implicated person on whose behalf I appear, General Nyanda.  The press reports are to the effect that General Nyanda did not submit an application for amnesty to the Truth Commission.  I'm instructed and indeed I've had sight of his applications, in fact there are two applications by him and therefore there is an application or two applications by him before the Truth Commission.  A date has not yet been set for the hearing of those applications, but nevertheless I just want to dispel the notion that he has not applied for amnesty.  	Mr Chairman I then would seek leave to take the Committee briefly through the Heads of Argument.  Mr Chairman you will note that there are certain references to the ANC's submissions.  I have in the short time been able to obtain a copy of the official submissions, with the official page numberings and I have been able to find a number of those statements and the page numbers.  Those that I haven't found I will find as soon as possible and convey it to the Committee.
	Mr Chairman it's our submission that the factual context within which the operation occurred is essentially not an issue.  Mr Chairman on page 2 of the Heads of Argument, paragraph 2.4, we refer to a pamphlet which was published after discussion at the COBWE Conference, encourage cadres of MK to take the struggle to the White area.  Mr Chairman that is dealt with at page 52 of the first submission and Mr Chairman we then place the encouragement given to the cadres in that pamphlet in it's context as testified to by the second applicant in this matter.  
	Mr Chairman it's been pointed out to me by my instructing attorney that there may be a possible misunderstanding.  I am not suggesting in the Heads of Argument that it was only after the COBWE Conference in 1985 that members of the Security Forces were considered to be legitimate targets.  It was more a case of after that conference there was an intensification of the armed struggle and certainly there was also a view that the struggle should be taken into the White areas.  
	Mr Chairman at all stages throughout the struggle from the 1960s Security Forces were considered to be legitimate targets in terms of ANC policy.  Mr Chairman on page 3, paragraph 2.8, at the bottom of the page, we make the point that the attacks in the White areas were not to be random and indiscriminate.  The policy was clear that the targets were the racist army, police, death squads, agents and stooges and the call to take the war to the White areas is defined as inter alia systematic attacks against the army and police.  	Mr Chairman that appears not only in the second submission but also in the first submission at page 52.  Mr Chairman the context within which this attack took place was that it was an attack that was planned and co-ordinated from the Swaziland Regional Politico-Military Committee which at the time was headed by General Sepiwe Nyanda.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to place on record here his present position.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman he is presently the Head of the South African National Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: I should perhaps explain that I do so merely in the event of our coming to the conclusion that there can be no doubt that he held a very senior position in Umkhonto.  This is confirmed by his present position.

MR LANDMAN: That is certainly so Mr Chairman in our submission.  Mr Chairman the other point we wish to make about his position in Umkhonto is if one looks at the structure, one finds that his name appears very high up in those structure and the ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The reason I mention this is, I think all of us have experienced it in political or quasi-political structures you sometimes see names there of persons who aren't actually all that active, but having regard to the promotion or the position he now holds, there can be no doubt that he was an extremely active person.

MR LANDMAN: And if I might add Mr Chairman, extremely active in the military field.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman in the same vein we would submit to the Committee that the second applicant was likewise extremely active in the military structures of the ANC.  Mr Chairman I would ask the Committee in as much as the Committee finds it relevant to have regard to the other acts for which the second applicant intends applying for amnesty, which includes attacks upon police stations and other installations and that stretches from the period 1979 onwards, so again we would submit that he was a highly placed member of MK.
	Mr Chairman again it might also be then important to place on record that the second applicant ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He draws a distinction doesn't he, in his application between the acts that he was directly involved with and those that he accepts responsibility for as a result of the position he held in the Transvaal (indistinct)?

MR LANDMAN: That's the same Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I would submit that that is also very significant in that obviously when one is an operative and is directly involved in acts it would seem to suggest that you are on the lower levels of the organisation and once you reach the command structures, it's more likely then that you'd be indirectly involved, by being involved rather in the planning and co-ordination of events as opposed to the ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But he's explained that he was stationed in Swaziland and that he was largely responsible for the supply and organisational side.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman that was his evidence yes.  Mr Chairman we submit further that that is also apparent from the structures as it appears in paragraph 6.4.1 of Appendix 1 of the ANC's second submission.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman on page 4, paragraph 2.9.

CHAIRPERSON: 6.4.1 - page?

MR LANDMAN: Page 4 ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman we'll ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I thought you said it was a minute ago.

MR LANDMAN: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh you just said paragraph 6.4.1 you didn't give the page.