Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

N JACK MENERA: By that time he was known, he was one of the group known as the activists in the township. The youth at that time was known as Matemaswu Youth Congress. He was in the leadership of Matemaswu Youth Congress.  I'm talking about Morgan Phelane.

JUDGE WILSON: This gentleman sitting here on the stage was in the leadership of the Youth Congress in 1988?  Is that what you're saying?

N JACK MENERA: Yes, I'm explaining that he was one of the people who were activists in that area and this Matemaswu Youth Congress, when there was violence in the township, Mr Morgan Phelane used to help them to look for advocates for them who would represent them and make bail available for them when they were detained.

UNKNOWN: You may proceed.

ADV DE JAGER: The person who robbed the money, was that Edward Phelane or Mr Morgan Phelane?

N JACK MENERA: No the person who was together with Three Million Gang was the son of Morgan Phelane who is Edward Phelane. They fought among themselves and because I was together with Musala, we were involved because Sibikhoto, who is Edward Phelane went to Matemaswu Youth Congress and showed them that I am against him and them and the way his father and himself were involved in politics and were the three people who were also fighting for freedom in Brandfort. Those were allegations which I learned during that conflict among ourselves, that..

UNKNOWN: What was the cause of the conflict?

N JACK MENERA: It was not for that we were fighting against this Matemaswu Youth Congress but we knew that there was a conflict among themselves about money that they went and robbed in the farms and Edward Phelane took the money.  That is the story we had, but I myself and Edwin Seshu were ...(indistinct) that because were together with Musala who was also our friend.  It happened again in 1986..

UNKNOWN: Before you proceed to 1986, I want to clarify something with you, you were saying, are you saying that members of Matemaswu Youth Congress were fighting that had been robbed from a farmer?

N JACK MENERA: Matemasu Youth Congress was misused by Edward Phelane and his father Morgan Phelane, because as I explained that Morgan Phelane was one of the leadership of the activist group, so anything which he was telling the youth that whoever, that the picture was painting about a person, they were accepting because he was respected as part of the leadership.  So any instruction, they would take it from him, that is the cause of the conflict between ourselves and this youth we called Michael. It happened that ourselves and Michael met and negotiated about the source of the conflict.  I told them the truth as far as I knew but when they analysed my opinion they could see that we were fighting for nothing. So we were able to reconcile in peace.  therefore we built this Michael to the point where they would see the direction how to fight an enemy.

UNKNOWN: Tell me, you've told us that there were negotiations between yourself and Michael, and who were present at that meeting?

N JACK MENERA: I would explain in this way. This issue was raised by my father because there was my brother called, his surname is Jackson, he was nicknamed Bamba, he is my brother because his mother or his father and my father were related. One day my father told us these allegations that Jack was fighting with Bamba, so I gave him the correct perspectives that the reasons I know of this conflict is that the Michael group was misused and were used for things which were far from them. We were worried that they were fighting for money which was robbed from the farms.
	I want to tell this Commission that this Michael group at the time when they said we were fighting us.

UNKNOWN: I seem to be missing you at some point. You had the meeting with your father and your half brother, is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: That's true.

UNKNOWN: Now what was discussed at the meeting between your half brother and your father?

N JACK MENERA: The issue was that myself and Bamba were fighting.  As I explained that one day my father asked us, which means myself and Bamba, why we were fighting.

UNKNOWN: Was an explanation given as to why you were fighting?

N JACK MENERA: I told him that the reason of our conflict is that people are fighting Musala and then people are fighting me because of Musala and also Edward, because those two people were my friends, and because Musala was a friend of the Three Million and he was also associated with KUYOK and Musala took part in all the activities, and by that time there was that conflict about money among the ...(indistinct) group and the Michael group.
	That's the conflict between ourselves and Michael continued.

UNKNOWN: Did your half brother give and explanation to your father about why you were fighting?

N JACK MENERA: I don't want to tell lies before this Commission because my brother Bamba, I don't remember that he denied what I said on that day.  I was telling my father in his presence because I was not able to tell him myself or ask him myself why he was making allegations that I was fighting him.  But on that day I got an opportunity to tell him of the reasons and all those facts which I told him was aware of the reality. And then he began to be aware of the KUYOKO and the Three Million that Sibikotho who is Edward Phelane, that for the Three Million Gang to be known in Brandfort was known by Phelane who is Edward.

UNKNOWN: Sorry can you tell this meeting between yourself, or involving yourself, your father, your half brother and so on and so forth, was it after or before you reconciled with Michael.

N JACK MENERA: I would say it happened before my reconciliation with Michael.

UNKNOWN: Now take us from the time after you reconciled with Michael and take us forward from that point.

N JACK MENERA: Alright it happened that after those conflicts we were able to resolve our differences, then I became as Jack Menera, I was able to be aware that Michael Group was fighting for liberation and I was also one of the oppressed, so I joined Michael to fight the apartheid government.

UNKNOWN: Now once you became involved with Michael, what was your relation with Mr Morgan Phelane? Morgan, the old man.

N JACK MENERA: We had a very good relationship, even that we had a conflict before but it was not visible after our reconciliation. What I would explain is that after being a member of Michael it happened that one day comrades, I would say Virginia comrades, went together with Edward Phelane from Brandfort to Virginia, to go and fetch the dynamite.  It happened that on their return from Virginia to Brandfort, Edward Phelane, as he was the driver to fetch that dynamite from Virginia, was detained together with the comrades who went to Virginia.  Edward Phelane became the state witness in that case, and those comrades were convicted and were at Grootvlei in those years 1986.  It happened that in 1986 we were arrested together with Morgan Phelane, it was on the 12th of June 1986, we were detained under the State of Emergency.
	It happened that during that detention the comrades who were detained then in 1986, I'm not sure of the number but approximately it was about 100, all of those people who were detained were members of AZAPO, PAC and ANC. No one knew when he would be released.  I was surprised to learn from Mr Morgan Phelane that when he told us together with Mnani(?) that next week, the following week he would be released from prison. That happened, he was released from detention.  After his detention, we asked ourselves that for...

UNKNOWN: After his release, not after his detention, after his release.