Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No I didn't.

MR PRINSLOO: What were you trying to do?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I thought that perhaps I would stop the situation.

MR PRINSLOO: What were you going to do?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well perhaps to stop Mr de Meillon possibly just be guilty of attempted robbery rather than a murder or something like that.

MR PRINSLOO: So did you do anything to stop Mr de Meillon?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No, when I went in it was already going on.

MR PRINSLOO: He said to them that they shouldn't be Rambos?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No.

MR PRINSLOO: He said to them they shouldn't be stupid?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes, he said to them they shouldn't commit stupid things.

MR PRINSLOO: And then?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: He and Mr Terblanche, one of the constables, were in a struggle, I moved behind them towards Mr Swart.  Mr Swart was pulling his firearm and I grabbed him by the arm and by the shoulder.  A shot went off, I pushed Mr Swart away and I ran away.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you walk past De Meillon?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage was there no struggle between De Meillon and the deceased?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No when I went passed Mr de Meillon, Mr Terblanche jumped up and they got involved in a struggle.

MR PRINSLOO: After you had passed?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No, while I was passing.

MR PRINSLOO: So you were on your way to Swart?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Why were you walking towards Swart?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I saw him drawing his pistol.

MR PRINSLOO: What did you want to do?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I wanted to stop him.

MR PRINSLOO: Stop him from doing what?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: From shooting me.

MR PRINSLOO: But why would he shoot you?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Because we came into a place where we were not supposed to be.

MR PRINSLOO: But had you done something that would justify his shooting you?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well I was wearing a balaclava and brown clothing.

MR PRINSLOO: When you entered with the brown clothing and the balaclava did you foresee that this plan which De Meillon had would be carried into effect?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I just foresaw that there were big problems.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you foresee his carrying his planning to effect?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes I did foresee that.

MR PRINSLOO: You then went to Swart.  Your concentration was on Swart?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So you don't know what was happening behind you?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you said that you then heard a shot?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: You don't know who fired the shot?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No I don't know.

MR PRINSLOO: Was the light still on?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: During the struggle the light went out.

MR PRINSLOO: Did the shot go off before or after the lights went out?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Just after the light went out.

MR PRINSLOO: After the light went out the shot went off?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I can't remember correctly.

MR PRINSLOO: So you can't say from where the shot came?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: As I said I don't know who fired it.

MR PRINSLOO: Your co-applicant says that there were three shots and Mr de Meillon says this as well.

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I heard one shot.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you argue that there could have been three shots?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: It could have been so.

MR PRINSLOO: And according to a ballistics report which was submitted to the Committee, a police report, it says that a .38 shell was found.  Would you argue that anything like this was found?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Why?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Because when I appeared in court the day that my and Mr de Meillon's cases were divided, the officer came with a bag with the bullet points and he said that it came from my firearm and it's impossible because it's too small.  They ask that the court adjourn for lunch, after the lunch break we returned.  Mr de Meillon pleaded guilty for murder and robbery, the case was divided.

MR PRINSLOO: And a .38 round is smaller than a 9 mm?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No, I said a 9 mm. was smaller than a .38.

MR PRINSLOO: And you said that this was a flattened bullet point?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No it was a small sharp point.

MR PRINSLOO: And you therefore argue that which the ballistic expert said in the police report?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: As I've said in court they didn't show me a .38 point, they showed me a 9 mm point and said that this was the bullet which I had fired.

MR PRINSLOO: If you look at the bullet point of a .38 and compare it with a 9 mm you will see that they are the same size?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No they are not.

MR PRINSLOO: So the prosecutor was the one that came to you, not the legal representative?  He showed you a bullet point and said that this comes from your weapon?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That's what he did.  My advocate and Mr de Meillon's advocate were standing there with him.

MR PRINSLOO: And according to Mr de Meillon's evidence he said that he had a 9 mm and that the deceased had a 9 mm as well as Mr Swart and that you had a .38?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So if a .38 had been found there it would only have been yours.

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: If a .38 had actually been found there it would have been mine.

MR PRINSLOO: So what did you want to go and see in this guardhouse.

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I was under command of Mr de Meillon, I assumed that we would go and see how many guards there were and whether they were there or not.

MR PRINSLOO: And if they were there or if they weren't there, what would happen then?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well according to my knowledge of military bases there are always guards and one can never be sure of how many there are at a given time.

MR PRINSLOO: So there are always guards?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So whether it's that day or the next day, it would be exactly the same?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: How old were you at that stage?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I was 36 years old.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mr de Meillon had just turned 21?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And your co-applicant is also older than Mr de Meillon?  He's closer to your age?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you didn't belong to the same organisation so you couldn't have fallen under his command?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: As I have already said sometimes the AWB and the BWB had to co-operate and I'm assuming that the person with the highest rank would then take up command.

MR PRINSLOO: You've stated that you'd met Mr de Meillon on that day?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No, I stated that I'd met him two weeks earlier.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon, did you just meet him fleetingly?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No we attended a meeting at Mr van Schalkwyk's house at which Mr de Meillon was also present.

MR PRINSLOO: And did he act normally that day?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes he did.

MR PRINSLOO: On that particular day in Pretoria did he behave normally?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes until we reached Pretoria and Devon he did and then in Pretoria he said he wanted to take the weapons from the guards.

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, so why do you say that that's fanatical?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I didn't say that, I said that afterwards I realised that the man was fanatical.

MR PRINSLOO: But upon what do you base your definition of him as fanatical?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well with regard to the evidence that's he's just delivered during which he said that he was disappointed in the fact that that which was planned for that day had not worked and from that I could see he was fanatical.