Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

MR PATEL: How did it happen?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We met him at Mdluli Street at Wesselton during the day, around twelve o'clock.  He was headed towards the taxi direction, we don't know where he was headed for.  We managed to discover that he was carrying a gun.
	We needed the gun that he was carrying.

MR PATEL: Who was with you?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I was with Bongani Khaba and Basil Dhlamini.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Committee how you, did you  manage to get his gun?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, we managed.

MR PATEL: How did you manage to do this?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Bhe was trained and he was a member of the SAP and that obviously made him an enemy of the ANC.  I had to shoot him.  I shot him once and when I tried the second time, the gun jammed and Basil also shot him on the  head.  That is when he fell down.

MR PATEL: In committing this offence, were you acting under any orders?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that offence is part and parcel of the order, because it was indicated to us already that our enemy is Inkatha and the Police.

MR PATEL: Now, the third offence, the attempted murder of the unknown South African Police members in November 1993.  Obviously you are unable to identify any victims, but could you just shortly explain the circumstances of this event?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: On that day, we were at Mndebele's shop, we spoke to Mr Mndebele.  I would also explain that at the time myself and Bongani Khaba and Pelele Shongwe were being wanted by the Police.
	As we were at the shop, one boy came in running, telling us that there was a Police convoy towards the shop direction.  Myself and Basil fled, Pelele remaining behind.  We took a different direction and as we were observing what was happening, they came out with one person who was apparently being forced into their kombi.
	We thought that the person who was being arrested, was Pelele because it was a distance from where we stood.  Myself and Basil started shooting with an aim of destructing the Police, so that they should not take the person into the kombi.

MR PATEL: Did the Policemen fire back?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, they fired back at us, but then they had a bigger fire power and they also had automatic assault rifles and we formed a semi-circle.  We took a different street so that we were on the other side above them.
	We came across another group of Police as we were doing that.  We went to a shack during which time we were surrounded by the Police.  We exchanged gunfire with the Police.
	Basil came out of the shack in which we were trying to flee.  That is when he was shot and he died.  Myself and Bongani realised that we no longer had ammunition and we only had one gun.  The other one was with Basil and we decided to surrender.

MR PATEL: What motivated you and your fellow comrades to commit this offence?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: All of these happened as a result of political reasons.  Police were seen as the enemy of the ANC because of their conduct towards the ANC members and their involvement with Inkatha members.

MR PATEL: Did you see this particular offence that you committed, as being part of the general instructions that you had received?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, I saw it as part and parcel of the general instruction which was broad.  It was like an umbrella inclusive of Inkatha and the Police.

MR PATEL: You were a member of a Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, let's just get clarity here.  Did Khaba make application for the murder of Malinga?

MR BLACK: If that is addressed to me Mr Chairman, at this stage no, I will have to take instructions on this.  I will ask that the matter stand down, my cross-examination just stand over, I need instructions on that aspect.  It is the first time that I have heard of it.

MR PATEL: Who were the members of your Self Defence Unit?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Those that I still remember very well were myself, Bongani Khaba, Pelele Shongwe and Charlie, including Basil Dhlamini as well as Bheza.  There were many of us but we were not together most of the time.
	I was most of the time in the company of Pelele and Bongani.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Patel, can I just come in here.  I just want to get the complete picture, I am just taking you back a little now.
	Tell me, the gun which you used to shoot Malinga with, was that the same gun which was used to shoot Obed with or which gun was that?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: These are different guns.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you get this gun from?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: After having received the command, the fact that we should arm ourselves, anybody including thugs that we identified as not belonging to the ANC, if such a person had a gun, an illegal gun, we would take it.
	Even if we had an opportunity to take guns from Police, we would do exactly that.

ADV BOSMAN: The question I am asking you is where did you get the gun from which you used to shoot Malinga with?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I got it from a tavern at Wesselton, from a person who was drunk, carrying this gun.

MR PATEL: The fourth offence for which you claim amnesty is the illegal possession of firearms and ammunition, is this the same gun that we are talking about, that you took off this drunk person at the tavern?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is the same gun.

MR PATEL: What was your motivation in taking the gun off him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: My aim was to carry out my mission as member of the SDU.

MR PATEL: As a member of the ANC, how did you view the situation in Wesselton, Ermelo at the time that you committed these offences?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The situation here was unbearable because there was violence.  Any level headed person would not have tolerated what was happening.
	There was shooting taking place.  Some people were getting injured right before the eyes of other people and this was intolerable.

MR PATEL: In committing any of the offences for which you have claimed amnesty, did you act out of any personal malice or financial gain?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, that is not the case.

MR PATEL: If we can just go back to the shoot-out with the South African Police, can you tell the Committee when exactly that incident took place?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The shoot-out between the Police happened on the 11th of November 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would it have taken place?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: It happened at Wesselton.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you be more particular?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: It happened at the first township in Wesselton, the problem is that there is no specific name for that area, whereas the name Wesselton is inclusive, it covers all the townships in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that, but I want to know how to identify this incident, because there is no names of Policemen and all I need perhaps is a geographical indication as to where the incident occurred for which you are making amnesty application.

MR PATEL: Perhaps if I could assist Mr Chairman, Mr Mndebele's shop, where the shooting commenced, do you know the name of the street?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, may the speaker please repeat the question.

MR PATEL: Mr Mndebele's shop where the shooting incident first began, do you know the name of the street?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes.  The shop is at the corner of Makhwaza and Mabileza Streets.

MR PATEL: And where the shooting finally came to an end at the shack, do you know the name of the street where the shack is located?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No.  There are no street names in that area, because people just put up their shacks as well as they wish.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat the names of the streets please?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Corner of Makhwaza and Mabileza Streets.

CHAIRPERSON: What date was this?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: It was on the 11th of November 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.