Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you ...[indistinct].

TAMSANQA DUMA: But from that night they, instead things were worse during the evening of that night.  From there they made some petitions, went to the police requesting to drive the PAC members of the towns.  They were not allowed even to go and buy in the shops.  Even the shop owners, they didn't want to sell their food to the PAC members.  They ask you first where do you belong and so on.  Chasing the people out schools.  That's where I changed my attitude.  I've decided that I'm not going to talk again because they were being chased in front of the principal and instead the principal, later on we went to him, he doesn't want to listen to the PAC, instead he took the people of the ANC inside the school and took other teachers who were belonging to the PAC out of the yard of this school.  And I talked to them, I said to them: "I have a solution about this".
	And by the time Mr du Plessis - du Plessis was a Colonel at Fort Beaufort Police Station, he was aware of this and I also informed by the time he asked me about this and he told us that they will look after us and so on.  I told him we don't want their defence, we are going to defend ourselves.  That's where all things went worse.

ADV SANDI: Who is Mbulelo Dlamini, do you know?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes, I know him.  He was one of APLA cadres who was stationed in Transkei by the time.

ADV SANDI: Did he ever give any orders to the applicants?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No, he just arrived to me and telling me about the request I made from the high command that he brought Mr Biko to me as the person who knows clearly the Fort Beaufort area.

ADV SANDI: Was that Bulelo Dlamini in a position to give orders to you?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes, because he was in a higher rank than I.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[indistinct] stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, my last person to be called, last witness for the applicants is Sipho Bulelani Xyma, the former Deputy Director of Operations and Director of Special Operations in APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sipho Bulelani Xyma, the former Deputy Director of Operations in APLA and he was also a Director of Special Operations then in APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: For what purpose would he be called?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, firstly the other point would be the question of Dlamini, to tell the Committee who is Dlamini and also to tell the Committee about the structure in operational capacity of APLA, how they were operating.

CHAIRPERSON: How relevant is that here?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, it's relevant in the sense that to put the case of the applicants in its proper perspective as how they operated, as it was questioned here, the way they were operating and relation between task force and APLA, what were the duties of the task force and what in relation to APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but is it going to take the case any further?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if - the Committee can rule if they see that there is no need for it.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to tell me how is the calling of that witness and the evidence he's likely to give going to enhance the application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, as I already indicated that they have been questions, there has been questions about the way they operated and that we want to put that in its proper perspective, as to whether what they did was within the operational formwork of APLA.  That's what we want to establish here, the Committee to have a clear picture of how APLA, whether what they did was outside the scope of APLA and the task forces which were formed by APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minute break.

ADV DE JAGER: If that is so why isn't he here to give the evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: He's here Mr Chairman, that's why I'm calling him.

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, he's present here?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, he has been mentioned, in many applications he has been mentioned. In almost all the applications of APLA his name has come up.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minute break.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What are his names?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sipho Bulelani Xyma.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Xyma, what language would you prefer to use?

SIPHO BULELANI XYMA: Come again.

CHAIRPERSON: Which language would you prefer to use?

SIPHO BULELANI XYMA: Okay, let's try English.

CHAIRPERSON: No, which would you be comfortable with?

SIPHO BULELANI XYMA: Ja, no, I'm saying let's try English.  I will be comfortable.

SIPHO BULELANI XYMA: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Xyma, can you tell the Committee just for the record purposes, what was your rank in APLA before there was an integration of APLA to the South African National Defence Force?

SIPHO BULELANI XYMA: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.  I was the Deputy Director of Operations, second in command to Leklapa Mpashlele and also the Head of Special Operations, appointed by the late comrade Sabelo Pama.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now firstly before we come to this incident regarding this matter, can you just for the benefit of the Committee tell the Committee about the
structure of APLA, how it was composed and down to the foot soldiers?

SIPHO BULELANI XYMA: Thank you.  In the first place it would be very difficult to, for other people but I'll try to explain.  In APLA - APLA was established inside the country in the form of smaller units of Poko(?) task forces.  There was no command structure as such by that time until we went outside where we formed APLA in 1967.  We had the High Command.  Behind the High Command we had regional commanders.  The regional commanders consisted then of the four provinces, the Transvaal, the Free State and the Cape Province and below that we had area commanders.
	When talking of area commanders I'm referring to the magisterial districts as the case with Fort Beaufort, and we've got the units on the ground.  I don't know whether you are covered.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now if we can just be specific between the area period 1990 to 1994 up until the time of the suspension of the armed struggle, if you can just for the benefit of the Committee tell how the command, how was the command, how were the instructions given, the orders regarding operations.

SIPHO BULELANI XYMA: Ja.  In answering that question I'll give an example.  When I infiltrated the country through Swaziland I had no gun, no direct targets inside the country as to where you are going to attack.  My brief was that I'm coming inside the country.  When I arrived at home I was given contacts in many different areas.  So as I've said, my brief was that I am trained politically, I'm trained militarily so I knew what to do on the ground when I entered the country.
	So I was not given specific targets as to, as it is the case in conventional warfare where if I'm going to attack in Port Elizabeth I'll be given a target, I'll be given a map and so on.  So whatever thing I'm going to do I'll depend on the map.  In our case you'll simply go inside the country, you'll decide for yourself what target to attack, where and when to attack that target.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it your evidence in this court that the cadres were trained to take their initiative and to be able to seek and identify the targets on their own?

SIPHO BULELANI XYMA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In what instances where the order will come from the top?