Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

MR SNYMAN: The events were as I have earlier related them. During the scuffle Mr Biko was injured during the scuffle.

CHAIRPERSON: Please answer the question.

MR SNYMAN: Ek is moeg. (I am tired).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, maybe we can help here as members of
the Committee.  The question that is being put to you, Mr Snyman, is that your version, the evidence you've given here this morning is that there was a scuffle, there was some kind of a struggle between Mr Biko and members of the security police and in the course of that scuffle, Mr Biko got injured on the head.	Now if that is your version, you as members of the security police cannot be blamed for what happened to him. I think that is the question Mr Bizos is trying to put to you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SNYMAN: Chair, it is the case that during the course of this confrontation, during the course of the scuffle, he was injured.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am going to suggest to you, Sir, that you do not answer the question, because you cannot answer it honestly.

MR SNYMAN: As I have said, there had been no assault.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now let us go into that interrogation room of yours in Sanlam Building.  Was Mr Biko brought to that room naked?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was he wearing?

MR SNYMAN: He wore clothes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he have his clothes on?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who supervised his detention at the police station?

MR SNYMAN: That would have been the station commander and
his staff.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did they take instructions from the security police that as to how Mr Biko as a detainee should be treated?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were there any instructions given to the police officers as to whether he should be kept clothed or naked?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.  There had been an instruction due to a suicide in a cell.  The instruction was that these detainees had to be detained naked.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why was he not given a very brief pair of underpants to wear?

MR SNYMAN: I do not know to what you are referring; at what point is this?

GEORGE BIZOS: At the police station of which your security police had control.

MR SNYMAN: I had nothing to do with this.  The instruction came from our headquarters that they had to be detained naked and that is in fact what was done at that time.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you question why, for a person's dignity that you should at least have a pair of underpants.

MR SNYMAN: That was not my instruction, I had nothing to do with this instruction, that was a head office instruction.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever question the humanity of that
instruction?

MR SNYMAN: I realise that this was inhumane, but as I have mentioned this was a head office instruction against which I could not protest.

GEORGE BIZOS: And were you prepared to behave in an inhuman manner, because an order came from someone else?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, why didn't you as the person in charge of the late Mr Biko's detention not accord him the dignity of a pair of underpants?

MR SNYMAN: It was not possible for me, since this had been an instruction from our head office.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were your orders as to how Mr Biko was to be treated the same as your orders as to how this Mr Peter Jones ...

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, these instructions were the same.  As far as I can recall, he was also detained naked.

GEORGE BIZOS: And generally, as to whether he was allowed to sleep or not or what food he should or should not get, the number of blankets and mats that he was entitled to, was the same?  Correct?

MR SNYMAN: I had no control over that which occurred in the cells.  That was a police station.

GEORGE BIZOS: Whether he should be taken out to the exercise yard or not?  Was it the same for Mr Jones and Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: I do not know what instructions Col Goosen gave in this regard, I gave no instructions.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or whether one or other or both of them would be allowed the luxury of having a shower or not?

MR SNYMAN: I had no control over that, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any suggestion from anyone that detainees should not be allowed to sleep properly?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the instruction to us as an investigative team had been that during the course of interrogation the detainee was not to be allowed sleep, so that we could break down his resistance. This was a pertinent instruction which we were given.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... was not extended to the deprivation of sleep in the cell before interrogation started, should be applied in order that the detainee should be disorientated and more easily made pliable to your wishes during your interrogation?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether that was done ... (intervention).

MR SNYMAN: I do not know, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... to Mr Peter Jones?

MR SNYMAN: I do not know, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Peter Jones is still alive and on this platform and he has given us instructions as to what happened to him.  Was there
any reason for those in charge of Mr Biko before the interrogation commenced to treat Mr Biko any differently than what Mr Jones was treated?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I believe that the treatment would have been the same in both cases.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you for that answer.  Now, you have mentioned two names of the persons that influenced your conduct and gave your orders.  The one is Genl van der Berg and the other is Col Goosen.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: Instructions came from Col Goosen, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And influence from Genl Van der Berg?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: There is nothing about Genl Van der Berg in your application.

UNKNOWN: With respect, Mr Chairman, the context in which the evidence about Genl Van der Berg was given, was that Van der Berg was in charge of the security police at the time when he was stationed in Pretoria and that was many years before the Biko incident.  In fact, if one goes back to that would have been in 1965, that was 12 years earlier.
I don't - if my learned friend understood it that it was suggested that Van der Berg had a direct, a direct influence in fact, then I apologise.  It was certainly not our intention to convey that, but I 
with respect do not think that was conveyed.

GEORGE BIZOS: I understood the evidence perfectly, Mr Chairman.  I want to persist in my question for - in order to make another point and not the one suggested by my learned friend.
	My reason for doing so will be come apparent in a question or two later, if I may proceed, please?
	Genl Van der Berg's name is not mentioned in your application for amnesty?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Between the making of your application for amnesty and today, is that Genl Van der Berg has died in the meantime?
	Col Goosen is also dead?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Might we infer a tendency on your part to put the blame on the dead;  on Mr Biko, or Mr Van der Berg, or Col Goosen?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, these persons, when I started my career in the security office, were in fact people who were alive and who exerted an influence on us through the years of their service.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, let us come to the reason for the changing of your story.  Was the injury above Mr Biko's eye clearly visible to you shortly after it was inflicted?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, I did not notice it, otherwise I
would have mentioned it in the entry into the occurrence book.

GEORGE BIZOS: You persisted in your affidavit and in your evidence in Pretoria that you did not see that injury?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.