Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR VISSER: Indeed Mr Chairman, we are ready to proceed with the evidence in the application of Mr Gerrit Nicholas Erasmus.  Mr Chairman, there's a few matters - house-holding matters, before I ask him to give his evidence.
	Firstly, his application you will find or an extract thereof, at page 24.  If I may say so Mr Chairman, what was very sensibly done is that it has been shortened, extracts have been made from the original application of Mr Erasmus to conform with the matter in hand namely, Messrs Madaka and Mthimkhulu.  	Unfortunately, if you turn to page 28, paragraph 10(a), you will see that there is a reference to paragraph 10(a) at page 5 of the application, now that has unfortunately been omitted from the papers before you and of course that is very relevant.  We have made copies for your benefit Mr Chairman, which we beg leave to hand up to you and what we've done is we have marked - it's four pages only, and what we have done is we have marked them 28(a) to (d).  They are already numbered - the pages.  
	If you would perhaps be so kind Mr Chairman, as to just include that in your bundle which is the bundle with the legend amnesty applications of - and the four applicants are mentioned.  There are two bundles - I don't know whether you wish to refer to this bundle as bundle A perhaps for identification purposes, it would make it easier.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that would be a wise idea, so can we all mark that bundle as bundle A, the other bundle will accordingly be bundle B.

MR VISSER: As it please you Mr Chairman.  And then just the last matter, house-holding importance Mr Chairman, is that notes have been made - you may have noticed at page 28, the history of Mr Erasmus in the South African police is very briefly sketched and we felt it appropriate to make some - page 24, I'm sorry, page 24, we've felt it appropriate Mr Chairman, to compile a document which is a little bit more full in detail and we wish to hand that up to you for inclusion, perhaps after page 24 Mr Chairman.  I don't know whether it's necessary to mark this an exhibit number or whether you simply wish to include it in the bundle now before you, as 24(a) ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: 24(a), yes.

MR VISSER: I think it might be more sensible to do it that way.  May we hand that to you then as well Mr Chairman?   Unfortunately, I've just decided on the numbering of the pages, so that has not been done.  I do apologise for that omission Mr Chairman, it will run to 24(e) in fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, can't it just be 24(a) 1,2,3,4,5?

MR VISSER: Or 1,2,3 and 4, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the pages are numbered 1,2,3,4,5.

MR VISSER: Indeed, thank you Mr Chairman, that's a better suggestion.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this all you have to say in this regard?

MR VISSER: That is all we have to say in this regard Mr Chairman, apart from begging your leave to present the evidence of Mr ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before you go on, can we continue with this?  Mr Booyens you have arranged to also give us a supplemented application in respect of Mr du Plessis which has been handed in which will also form part of the record as page 17(a) and the same thing.

MR PHOSA: Mr Chairman, bear with me sorry, I have - may I interpose something Mr Chairman, sorry?  I have a problem, it turns out we don't have bundle A so I'm struggling to understand what's being said about bundle A, we've never been served with bundle A.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the bundle dealing with the applications.  You're here to oppose applications and you say you haven't got the bundle dealing with them.

MR PHOSA: I dealt - I did all that was given and I read what I was given.  I had no way of knowing that something else was given.

CHAIRPERSON: There are only two bundles, you're holding up two now.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, it appears Mr Phosa's difficulty is that he doesn't have what we have referred to as bundle A, he has an application of Mr Niewoudt only.  I don't know why that is.  I'm endeavouring to obtain a further copy for him through your secretary and the logistics officer.

MR PHOSA: That was what was sent from here I understand, that's all that was sent from Cape Town and I had no way of knowing that there's something I hadn't been given in this short time.

MR BRINK: You can use this one Mr de Jager.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You have now been lent the copy of bundle A -  my colleague Mr de Jager's.

MR PHOSA: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, are we now ready to continue?  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.  I see there are lights on the other side on this  - Mr Phosa's as well.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I explain something to Mr Phosa?  [Advocate Sandi explains to Mr Phosa how microphone and equipment works]

MR PHOSA: Mr Sandi, thank you very much for the assistance, nobody ever told me that before - I was told something different actually, thank you very much.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I did inadvertently mislead you, there is one more matter for house-holding issue and that is at page 24 Mr Chairman, paragraph 7)(a) and (b).  You will notice that in the Afrikaans vernacular there is "not applicable", "not applicable" under A and B.  I'm informed by my client that that is incorrect, that 7(a) should read "Yes" and 7(b) should read "Supporter" Mr Chairman.
	I'm not certain whether it is - I'm sorry, 7(a) should be "Yes, National Party", I'm sorry, and 7(b) should be "Supporter".  In fact Mr Chairman, I ask for this formal amendment.  It will become clear from a reading of his paragraph 10 that that has been the intention all along.  It's perhaps to be ascribed to the somewhat - the language which has been used in that paragraph and perhaps the mistake is more that of his legal representatives than of the client himself.  It's a question of interpretation of that paragraph Mr Chairman., nothing really turns on it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I have no problems with it Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May I then call Mr Erasmus to give evidence before the Committee.  He prefers to speak in his own language, Afrikaans Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Your full names please?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Gerrit Nicholas Erasmus.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, you are applying for amnesty before this Commission and you have completed the prescribed form for amnesty, is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, yes.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the contents of that statement which you made?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, yes.

MR VISSER: Now in your statement you referred - on page 28(d), in paragraph 10(a) you referred to a submission of the Foundation of Equality before the Law and you refer to the evidence or a submission made to this Committee on the 21st of October last year by General Johan Velde van der Merwe, and in paragraph 10 you requested that that evidence be incorporated into your evidence.  Is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Lastly, you also referred in your application, on page 26 - I beg your pardon, it's page 27, at IV you referred to the amnesty application of Mr H B du Plessis that is one of the applicants here today, is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: You also requested his application insofar as it's relevant to your application, that that be incorporated into your application?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Correct.

MR VISSER: Did you after that, have the opportunity to also read the applications of Mr van Rensburg and Mr Niewoudt?  Those are the other two applicants in this matter.  Did you read the applications?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: And you told me that you would request that the information contained in those applications insofar as it's relevant to yourself, be incorporated into your own application.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Correct.