Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-19

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, before we commence, will you place on record the reason why we have been delayed?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, the various victims in this matter, were notified by telefax followed up by registered post indicating that the hearings would commence at 9 am this morning, not 10 am as previously thought, 9 am.  I gather that Sergeant Solomons is on the way, Constable Van den Berg was on patrol, but his police station was trying to make contact with him.
	I don't know about Constable Boltman, no one seems to know where he is.  Sergeant Beeselaar, apparently had left the police station, Old Faure Road and Constable Kid Anderson, don't know what's happened to him.  They all had notice and it was because we were waiting for them to arrive, that the matter did not resume as arranged at 25 past 11.

CHAIRPERSON: Die you receive any notification or indication at all that they were interested in being present?

MR BRINK: None at all.  None at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we have waited a long time for them and we must now proceed in their absence, they may never turn up at all.

MR BRINK: I understand that Mr Mills and Mr Anderson, they are here, but I haven't had a chance of talking to them.  Perhaps we can do that when the applicant's case is finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mills and Mr Anderson, are you here?  Will you come forward please?  Have you been given to understand that this is a case in which we are considering applications for amnesty by these two individuals and that you have an opportunity of conveying your attitude to this application, to us, that if it is your wish or if it is your intention to oppose the application for amnesty, that you will be afforded an opportunity to give reasons why and on what grounds.  And you may even ask questions of the applicants.  Are you aware of that?

MR MILLS: We are fully aware of that, yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your attitude?

MR MILLS: No comment on it, no answers will be taken sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you?

MR ANDERSON: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you to mean that you have no comments to make?

MR MILLS: That is positive sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean you have no questions to ask either?

MR MILLS: That is positive.

CHAIRPERSON: In the light of what you say, I may tell you that you don't have to remain here if you do not wish to, that you are excused from further attendance, but if you wish to remain, you are entitled to remain.  Do you understand that?

MR MILLS: I understand, thank you very much sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated.  Yes, Mr Brink?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, this application relates to those from Maxim Phakamisa and Two-Boy Jack.  They are represented by my colleague, Mr Manthana, at Attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, I think that the people who do our transcription, that we should place on record before the commencement of each proceedings, certain particulars about the Committee and Council appearing in the matter.  For the purposes of record, the Committee is made up of myself, Judge Wilson on my left and Ms Khampepe on my right.  Mr Robin Brink appears as the leader of evidence and Mr Manthana as the representative for the two applicants.
	Mr Manthana, what are your initials?  Pardon?

UNKNOWN: S, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: "S"?

UNKNOWN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthana are you an Attorney?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, sir.

MR BRINK: Before, Mr Chairman, before my colleague proceeds, I am given to understand that one of the victims, a policeman named Van den Berg has been in touch with my assistant, he does not wish to oppose the application, and he is not coming.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be noted.  Yes, Mr Manthana?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the applicants have prepared statements in Xhoza which they intend to read out to the Committee as their evidence, setting out the acts that they committed and then the circumstances in which they were committed and the objectives for which they were committed in support of their application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Will they be giving evidence through Xhoza?

UNKNOWN: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you calling first?

UNKNOWN: First I call applicant Two-Boy Jack.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jack, will you stand?

CHAIRPERSON: Will you swear him in?

TWOBOY JACK: (sworn states)

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are sworn in full, you may have a seat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Manthana?

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Can you proceed and read out your statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a copy of those statements?

UNKNOWN: Yes, but they are in Xhoza Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No, let him read them out.

UNKNOWN: You may proceed.

TWOBOY JACK: My names ...

JUDGE WILSON: Could you remind your client that he should speak into the microphone, he is speaking past it now.  He can move the microphone across to point towards him.

CHAIRPERSON: Bring it right in front of you.