Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

CHAIRPERSON: My note says, and it be checked from the record, "...as I was questioning him I saw something in his pocket.  I asked him what it was and he said nothing."   ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR RICHARD: Now, why this morning did you say pocket?

MR DUBE: I can say that it may have been a mistake, because one other thing that I did not explain was that he had wrapped this apparatus with a brown masking tape.  He had wrapped it around his body.

MR RICHARD: I don't understand.  When you say wrapped it around his body, what do you mean?

MR DUBE: I mean that it was stuck around his waist with a masking tape.

MR RICHARD: So you're saying that it was stuck to his skin with masking tape.  Is that correct?

MR DUBE: Yes, that is what I'm saying.

MR RICHARD: So variously you've given us three versions today.  On his waist, in his pocket, and now strapped to his skin.  Is that correct?  Which one are you telling us?  I'll leave that.  The next point about it ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: When you took this walkie talkie from him did you take this strap that was all round his waist too?  It was strapped to his skin round his waist.

MR DUBE: Yes, that is what I did.

MR RICHARD: Now, how big was this thing?

MR DUBE: About that size.  About the size of that item he's holding.

MR RICHARD: And you're indicating a thing the size of a portable cassette recorder, or is that too big or too little?

CHAIRPERSON: He's indicating the size of the things we have in the hearing.  Has nobody here got a tape measure?  You like me think in inches still.

MR DUBE: If someone, if there was somebody with a walkie talkie here, I'd be in a better position to describe or explain just how big this thing was.

MR RICHARD: What you say at page 11 of the bundle, that's paragraph number 4
"...While I was discussing the issue with him I decided to search him,"
You with me?  Now, you then say:
"...of which I asked permission from him and he never refused.  While I was searching him I discovered small transmitter radios."
Small transmitter radios, that's plural.  What do you mean by that?  For the record somebody has produced a measure.  It's twelve and a half centimetres by five and a half centimetres.  Now, is that averment in your affidavit correct, that you asked his permission?

MR DUBE: Yes, I asked him what was that bulging and I asked that I should see it, and he agreed.  That was when I unstuck this item from him.

MR RICHARD: Now could it have been an ordinary cassette recorder?

MR DUBE: It was not a cassette recorder, because I know one-way transmitter radios.  It was something that I knew.  I knew what it was and what it did.

MR RICHARD: But what else did he have with him when you searched him?

MR DUBE: It was the only thing I found on, in his possession, because after he had removed this thing I searched on his person that he wasn't carrying a gun, and I discovered that he had none.

MR RICHARD: Did you search him thoroughly, in other words, all his pockets, the contents of everything?

MR DUBE: I removed this transmitter from him, and then I just felt him around to check if he did not have a gun, and then I threw this on the ground.  I then removed the batteries.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I hear you say: "I'm not sure if I did or not, I know one-way transmitter radios"?  Did you say one-way transmitter radios?

MR DUBE: Yes, that's what it was.  That's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is something somebody wears so somebody sitting a distance away can hear what is said to him.  It's not something that he can get messages on himself, he can only send out signals?  Is that what you mean by one-way?

MR DUBE: Yes, that is it.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you find any money on his person?

MR DUBE: I do not remember, because I did not search his pockets.

MR RICHARD: If I told you that on that afternoon Sipho Tshabalala reported that he had the sum of R 830 on him, which he disclosed to Sipho and said that the money was to be used for the detainees at Baragwanath Hospital, and he was to pay that in on Monday, the next day.  Now R 830 at that time was a sizeable bundle of paper.  You would have found it if you had searched his pockets.  Do you remember that?

MR DUBE: I do not know anything about the money.

MR RICHARD: Because on one version I will tell you that no money was found on his person after he was shot, and it would seem that somebody killed him for money.  Now, so you say you have no knowledge of that money there.

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now for the sake of the record I'll continue through Sipho's statement.  He continues to say
"...he had a radio cassette with him and the sum of R 830."
Do you remember anything about a radio cassette on the deceased at the time that afternoon that evening?

MR DUBE: Nothing.  He did not have a radio cassette on him.

MR RICHARD: What time that afternoon did you meet up with the deceased, according to your version?

MR DUBE: As I've already stated I'm not certain of the time but I can estimate that it could have been around two, three, four, after I had been to Clive's home.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you remember that afternoon, Sipho and the deceased drinking cool drinks and other people drinking beer?  Do you remember any such incident?  Women coming to visit and playing music on the cassette recorder.  Do you remember any of those sort of incidents that afternoon, between the hours of 3 o'clock and 7:30?

MR DUBE: What I know is that I saw Sipho in the afternoon, it was already dark, that is after Clive had fetched him and I was with Sicelo.

MR RICHARD: So this statement made to the attorneys is wrong.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, may I interrupt.  I am not privy to the statement that my learned friend is using.  I would wish to have a copy of such statement.

MR RICHARD: I'm quite happy to adjourn for five minutes while my learned colleague examines it.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOHN IDMEL DUBE: (s.u.o.)

MR RICHARD: (cont)
	For the sake of the record I would like to put in that this statement emanates from a pile kept at the historical documents section of the William Cullen library at the University of the Witwatersrand.  It was amongst the papers together with a post mortem report prepared by the late Dr Gluckman.  Mr Pigou gave a copy of it to Mr Moime last week, so, may I proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: We've all been given a copy of this document?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: We've all been given a copy of the document.  Should we call it something?  A. ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD: Captain, during the adjournment, did you have an opportunity to read the document?  Exhibit A?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Chairperson I see it's ten to one, sorry.
	Have you finished reading it?

MR DUBE: I have not.

CHAIRPERSON: Well should we take the adjournment then, and allow the applicant to continue reading it?

MR RICHARD: And I suggest we start at quarter to two, subject to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn until a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: (s.u.o.)

MR RICHARD: (Cont)
	Mr Dube, have you had a chance to read that statement that I gave you before lunch?

INTERPRETER: Please activate your microphone.

MR RICHARD: Now, it sets out the activities of the late Sicelo Dhlomo the afternoon before his death.  Do you disagree with what's said there, yes or no?

MR DUBE: I don't know anything about this statement, and what I will say is that this is not the truth.

MR RICHARD: So are you saying that your comrade Mr Tshabalala lied?

MR DUBE: What I will say is that he will explain himself as to what, under what circumstances he wrote and furnished this statement.