Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-20

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: From De Villiers Street where I never mentioned about, or I never seen marchers as I said off Wanderers Street.  I don't know where they were coming from but I saw them in De Villiers Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes proceed.

MR PRETORIUS: Can you indicate to us roughly - I don't, I'm not going to ask you to do it in any exact figures, but can you just indicate in court perhaps how far were they away from you at that stage?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: You mean when they were approaching?

CHAIRPERSON: When you first saw them.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Oh, I just peeked at them and at least, I cannot be precise as to how far were they from me but generally what I'd say is that I was at a safe distance from the marchers and to the spot where I had taken cover.  I was just at a safe distance from them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what counsel wants to know is can you estimate whether it's a hundred metres?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Oh I can't estimate.  I cannot estimate because I cannot be exact, (indistinct) how far were they from me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you at any stage while the marchers were in De Villiers Street, notice any firearms amongst them?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I didn't notice any firearms amongst them.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you notice any ANC guards in this whole process that you now went from the 7th floor right down to where we are now, did you notice any ANC guards that you can name to the committee?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Sorry I can't hear the last part of the question.  Did I notice any ANC guard and what?

MR PRETORIUS: That you can name, that you can identify?

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage, whilst he was in King George Street or when?

MR PRETORIUS: During this whole period when he came from the 7th floor right up to where he is now in King George and De Villiers Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now let's not confuse the questions man, I mean do you want to know whether he saw any guards inside the building, while he was in the building?

MR PRETORIUS: More in particular when he left the foyer on his way up to King George.

CHAIRPERSON: That's it so don't talk about the 7th floor.  When you were down in the foyer out of the building, from that stage onwards did you see any ANC guard ... (intervention)

MR PRETORIUS: Which you can identify, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That you can identify?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think there were ANC guards as I was coming down, but exactly - the one maybe I can identify which I saw it was Mr Khumalo.

MR PRETORIUS: Where was Mr Khumalo?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think I noticed Mr Khumalo whilst he was at the corner of Plein and King George.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you then leave Mr Khumalo and proceed up to King George and De Villiers?

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't say he was with him, he just says ... (inaudible - end of tape)

MR PRETORIUS: ... (inaudible) you went past him.  Did you go past Mr Khumalo then ?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I cannot be sure, I'm not sure with that one, but I saw Mr Khumalo around there.

MR PRETORIUS: Whilst you were on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street, did you see Mr Khumalo?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Whilst I was at the corner of King George and De Villiers Street I didn't see Mr Khumalo.

MR PRETORIUS: What was Mr Khumalo busy doing when you saw him?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: When I saw Mr Khumalo it was a time whilst he was shooting.

MR PRETORIUS: So that was after you retreated down King George Street in the direction of Plein Street to the third pillar or second set of pillars as you referred to it.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Before the shooting started, did you see Mr Khumalo?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I didn't see Mr Khumalo.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you see Mr Mondli Zuma?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I didn't see Mr Mondli.

MR PRETORIUS: Where were the marchers when you heard the first shots being fired?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: The first shots from the marchers I saw - which shots are you, can you just maybe specify which shots?

MR PRETORIUS: The very first shots.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Sorry could I be clear.  The very first shots of the day or which shots, in the Shell House or Lancet or?

MR PRETORIUS: In regard to this time period we're speaking about now Mr Mangena.  In other words that is when you first saw the marchers in De Villiers Street, from that period on.  Where were you when you heard the first shots fired?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think the first time the shots which I heard it was even before I saw the marchers.

CHAIRPERSON: No the question is not that.  The question is that whilst you were there on the road and this crowd was coming towards you, the question is when the first shot was fired where were you?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think (indistinct) can have difficulty in except to say exactly where was I at that particular time because there has been some sporadic shooting around there.

MR PRETORIUS: You mentioned that when the first shots were fired it was even before you saw the marchers.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Where were you then?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: By then I was at the corner, at King George Street.

MR PRETORIUS: Next to Shell House?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Now Mr Mangena Mr Khumalo and Mr Zuma testified that when the first shots were fired they were on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street.  They thereafter ran down from there down King George Street in the direction of King George and Plein Street, thereafter they ran into the foyer.  If that is true they must have run down right past you.  Did you notice them?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I didn't notice them.

MR PRETORIUS: You knew Mr Khumalo before that day.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: After you positioned yourself at the second set of pillars, when the marchers came around the corner of De Villiers Street into King George Street, where were the marchers when you heard the first shot?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think I'm still going to have a difficulty there because you don't clearly state - you are talking about the first shot, I don't know exactly which shot are you referring to.

MR LAX: Maybe we can help you here Mr Mangena because we're going over the same ground over and over again.  We're not talking about the time when you heard the first shots.  There was - you retreated from the corner of King George and De Villiers to your position at the pillars.  Now, did you hear any shots while you were retreating?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I cannot remember.

MR LAX: No you're at the pillars.  From that point you saw a crowd being to emerge around the corner.  Is that right?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: (inaudible)

MR LAX: No what you're being asked is, during that period did you hear shots?  That's when he says what was the first shots you heard at that stage in other words.  Don't get confused by the word first shots, it's at that stage he's referring to.  Are you with us?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR LAX: Okay, see if you can answer that now.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Oh at that stage I don't quite remember when did I hear that shots because I fired also the shots and other colleagues also were firing.  I fired three shots at that point and other colleagues were also firing.

MR PRETORIUS: After the marchers came around the corner from De Villiers Street into King George Street and before you fired shots, did you hear any shots being fired in that time phase?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I cannot remember.

MR PRETORIUS: Can you recall whether you heard any shots, that is now after the marchers turned into King George Street from De Villiers Street, any shots other than that of yours and your colleagues behind you?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I cannot recall that.