Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV JANSEN: Furthermore Mr Ras states that as far as he can 
recall the scene, the so-called plan B would entail that should the 
explosive device not be detonated, they would have waited for the 
members to do the so-called observation tasks in Motherwell and on 
returning, that would possible be early the morning, just before or 
during the sun came up, that at that stage they would be shot.  Do 
you want to comment on that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It could have been like that.

ADV JANSEN: You would agree that when those plans were made, 
you did make such a plan or agreed to that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen, what is your difficulty?  Earlier on 
you put it to the witness that your clients could not have been in a 
position to change any aspect of the plan.

ADV JANSEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know what precisely where are we 
leading to and what aspect of the matter are you dealing with?

ADV JANSEN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I think it would be clear that as 
far as, I think I specifically put the question on the basis that the 
basic plan or what would be used and the mechanisms, that can't be 
changed, but obviously at the end of the day, on the actual ground 
and at the scene, the operatives do to some extent use their 
discretion, as to how the operation is concluded.
	There aren't any specific, my instructions isn't that there was 
any specific rule as to what they can change and what they can't 
change, that will depend on the operation itself to what extent the 
operatives have a discretion.
	But the planning is done on a more senior level and that 
planning determines which individuals are more likely to be asked to 
be involved, depending on their qualifications and their experience.

CHAIRPERSON: But plan B never even came into operation?

ADV JANSEN: No, it didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Why should we be detained about around aspects 
relating to plan B which didn't even come into operation?

ADV JANSEN: No, I accept that Mr Chairman, that it probably 
doesn't play much role in the present circumstances.  I am doing it 
purely to explain the role of the three Warrant Officers in the fullest 
possible sense.

CHAIRPERSON: Although I don't think there is much argument 
about the role that it was thought they would play and also the fact 
that they got instructions to pack and go to PE.  They just had to 
follow instructions as far as I can see things.

ADV JANSEN: No, I accept that Mr Chairman.  Mr Nieuwoudt, at 
the end of the day Mr Ras and the other two Warrant Officers were 
under your command in the Eastern Cape?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV JANSEN: And that what they had done, was a direct 
consequence of the commands given to them by you or by Mr De 
Kock?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV JANSEN: And there is no doubt that that what was done 
would be regarded by them as part of their job or reasonably as part 
of their work?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV JANSEN: As it pleases the Chairman, I do not have any 
further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

ADV JANSEN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr 
Chairman, Cornelius for the seventh applicant, Mr Vermeulen.   Mr 
Nieuwoudt it is clear that Vermeulen had nothing to do with 
handling and the placing of the explosive device?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: It was done by Waal du Toit and De Kock?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: I just want to clear up something which also 
bothered Mr De Jager.  The idea is created by you that on the scene 
Vermeulen and Snyman made a certain submission should this 
operation fail.  I just want to put this straight.
	The applicant Vermeulen guarded the motor vehicles where 
they were parked, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And if I look at the submissions it was a far way 
from the scene where the bomb exploded?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Such a distance that the applicant will say he 
did not even hear the explosion?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At that stage when this explosive device was 
activated, applicant Vermeulen was out of sight and far from the 
scene?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: So he was in no position to execute another 
plan should this explosion fail and so that he could then eliminate 
the people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: I just want to follow on the following, it was 
clear even from Eugene de Kock's part, that this was cleared at a 
higher level and that he had to follow your instructions.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further 
questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

MR CORNELIUS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, Mr Kemp 
on behalf of Du Toit and Kok, the fifth and sixth applicants.  I only 
have a few questions to ask.
	The morning you left Nick van Rensburg's house, did you go 
directly to the technical division?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, this is how I recollect it.

MR KEMP: Now, earlier it was put to you that it could have been 
around half past six that morning, can you remember more 
specifically what time it was that morning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I can't remember specifically what time it 
was.

MR KEMP: Have you met Mr De Kock previously?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR KEMP: Did you know Mr Du Toit?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR KEMP: And Mr Kok?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR KEMP: When you came to the technical division, who did you 
meet there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr De Kock took us to Mr Du Toit.

MR KEMP: Is it correct that Mr Kok was not there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: Mr Kobus Kok?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: It was only Mr Du Toit whom I had discussions with.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: I am stating it to you that Mr Du Toit as he remembers 
it, was that this visit took place between ten and eleven o'clock that 
morning, but he isn't sure.  Could it have been at that time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is possible, but I can't remember exactly 
what time it was.

MR KEMP: Did you do anything else that morning before you went 
to Vlakplaas, after you had been to the technical division?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR KEMP: One aspect I want to mention to you is that when you 
were in the office of Du Toit, you explained to him precisely what 
this matter was about, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: Did you explain to him the scope of this operation and 
the importance of this operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: And also the urgency?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: And De Kock was also present?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: The question that some of these members were 
involved in offences, do you agree that it was never a reason for 
eliminating them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: Because if they were only guilty of offences, they 
could have been prosecuted in a normal way?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: It was because of the results and the threats around 
that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR KEMP: At which stage did you for the first time meet Mr 
Kobus Kok?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was early the next day when Mr Du Toit 
contacted me that they had arrived in Port Elizabeth.  I met them 
and I took them to my safe premises and that was where I met Mr 
Kobus Kok for the first time.