Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I drew attention to this earlier on, presumably you asked here at some time or another why Mr Mandela's name was incorporated.  Was it in order to confuse people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't ask her that question, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Nor in relation to Mr Slovo?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, she was doing her own journalistic job.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Why should I ask her those questions?

JUDGE WILSON: While we are looking at this list, I notice and I haven't noticed till now, that Chris Hani is the only one, that's on page 32, who has - have you got it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 35, I think, Mr Chairman. On the list?

JUDGE WILSON: On the list, yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have the list anyway, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: He is the only one who has got a description of the make of his motor car and apparently the registration number.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know anything about that.

JUDGE WILSON: You don't know?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you not say in your evidence in chief that you were aware that Walus was reconnoitring in other houses as well?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I didn't say that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't say that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I wasn't aware of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I wasn't aware that he was reconnoitring other houses. I never said that in my  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't recall saying in my main evidence that Walus was reconnoitring other houses, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right. When this list was shown to you after the - after it was brought back by Mr Kemp, did you see the description of Mr Mandela's house in Lower Houghton?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I did.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now it is number 4, 13th Avenue, Lower Houghton, Why is the description necessary?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't fill in this description, Mr Chairman. Can I just read what the note says and perhaps that will indicate why the description was necessary?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes. Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Note
"The house situated in an oak-lined road is deliberately not numbered, but is easily recognisable by the wrought-iron black fence."
But I don't know, I didn't ask for that and I didn't put it in.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes
"Which has had black metal sheeting placed behind it to limit the view from the road."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: "It has a hi-tech electronic surveillance systems throughout, including a television camera mounted at the gate behind a glass panel. The gates are electronically controlled."
Are you saying that all this was necessary because the house didn't have a house number on?  Is that what you are telling the Committee?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am saying that I don't know the reason for this.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I believe that  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: But you have suggested a reason?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That the fact that the house was deliberately not numbered, could have been the reason.

GEORGE BIZOS: It could quite - if the purpose was an innocent one, was it necessary to give the security arrangements?  Couldn't you say that it is between houses six and eight, which presumably were numbered and two houses away from 13th Avenue and Central Street on the southern side of the street. It wouldn't have been necessary to have all these security arrangements noted, unless someone wanted to get into it in a "skelm" manner.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know the motivation, how many times do I have to repeat it?  Mr Bizos is now asking me to speculate over various things which appear on this form, and I am not in a position to do so.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you and your wife saw it, did you not query Kemp and say hey, Kemp, we are not going to break in there, we are not house-breakers, we are honourable politicians and honourable journalists, we are going to knock on the door?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, Kemp wasn't in the picture when I saw this list. I saw this list in Cape Town.

GEORGE BIZOS: But when you saw it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: So how can I question Kemp in Cape Town?

GEORGE BIZOS: When you saw it, did it not strike you that this was a strange way of identifying the house?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, when I saw this in Cape Town, I was on my way to a session of the President's Council, to an actual meeting of the President's Council.  And I gave a passing glance at the top page and that was that, and we made some mundane comment about how the fat cats live in luxury or something to that effect, not anything important, and then I rushed to be at the meeting of the President's Council in time, after seeing it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have a look at page 31, Joe Slovo
"Unable to establish the precise address but the following should be sufficient with a bit of leg-work."
A simple statement that it is the house next to house number so-and-do on the northern side and so-and-so on the southern side, number so-and-so.  That would have been sufficient, wouldn't it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or the colour  ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know where the house is, I have never been there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or the colour of the walls?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or the type of hedge there was.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Once again, I don't know, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if it was intended for gravy train purposes, it was quite negative, wasn't it?
"A medium-sized tin-roof, three bedrooms, study, small kitchen, sitting and dining rooms, with an old garden with huge trees and no access from the front. The back area faces onto the road and has heavy duty metal bars covering all open areas.  There is also a double garage facing onto the road."
What was the necessity for that other than for the purposes of breaking-in or lying in wait in order to kill him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know.  Mr Bizos is asking me to comment on something with which I had nothing to do.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you see, when you say that your wife - you don't know why your wife said that this was for the purposes of eliminating people, I am going to suggest that the evidence is overwhelming, having regard to these descriptions, that she was speaking the truth when she said that you and she drew up a list in order to eliminate people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, how then do you explain the fact that only those two houses have any information, other than the actual address?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you knew how to deal with the top three  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Richard Goldstone ranks as well.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, with respect. Under, on the page on which Judge Goldstone - Goldstone's address appears, it says
"Pinelands Townhouse Complex, entrance in First Avenue, Hyde Park. Very near to Hyde Park Shopping Centre.  Number not known, but it is one of the townhouses at the end of the complex."
	But Mr Chairman, the most important house on that list was the residence of Chris Hani, and Mr Chairman, it is a fact that it was obvious for everyone to see, according to Mr Walus when we discussed it afterwards, that there were security measures in place at Mr Hani's residence, and yet, there is not a word mentioned, although it is clearly visible from the street.  And I am quite sure, Mr Chairman, that the same applies to other houses on this list.  So I can't be expected to explain that and I don't understand why Mr Bizos is harping on this.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know who put the car numbers there and whose cars they were?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is typed here, Mr Chairman, no, I don't know whose, what car numbers they are and it looks like a BMW with a car registration, not two cars. It looks like one car.

GEORGE BIZOS: One.  Now was this a car which was used by Mr Hani from time to time?