Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: To shoot all white people we could find at that church at the time.

MS COLLETT: To kill them?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you achieve that mission, the group of you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, because after that, after the shots rang for some time, they stopped, the Africans ran out, I followed after them because I was covering their backs.  They went into the car waiting for us, we all rushed into the car and left facing Transkei.

MS COLLETT: Did you leave the white people for dead?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I am sure we left them dead.

MS COLLETT: What did you do after you left the church?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We embarked on the car and left for Transkei.  After we passed the Kei river we moved about 500 metres, we took a gravel road turning to the left and the unit commander instructed Tona to take that route and he too did as instructed.
	The car moved on until we got to a village where we got to a certain house that was better known to the unit commander.  We got there and we stopped, we rested, we ate, we stayed for a short tim and then we left.  
	We went straight to the commander, Jimmy Jones.  We gave him a report back about everything that happened.

MS COLLETT: Where did Jimmy Jones stay?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He was staying at a Coloured township at Butterworth.

MS COLLETT: And what did you do with the motor vehicle and the weapons?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The car and the weapons were with us.  The last time I saw them was at his house, that is Jimmy Jones' house.

MS COLLETT: So you left them there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, we left them then.

MS COLLETT: Was the vehicle to become the property of APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Was that standard practice?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Before we leave this incident, did you hear anybody at the church, at the Bahai Faith Church, telling you that the people who were being shot were not white people?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not hear anybody saying such a thing.  Of course if any such person had said so and said such a thing I'm sure we would not have believed that because we did not go there to kill English people or Afrikaner people of Chinese, we were there to kill white people and not discriminating as to whether they are a different ethnic group within white people as long as they were viewed as supporting the government of the day.

MS COLLETT: Would you say that it wouldn't have effected the carrying out of the mission even if somebody had said that these are not white people?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I don't think it would have effected our decision.

MS COLLETT: Was the decision as far as you were concerned already taken and you were merely carrying out the instructions that you were given?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt for a moment?
	When you were saying that you were not there to kill English and other people, did you also say you were not there to kill Chinese?  Is that what I heard you say?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean you considered Chinese people as whites who supported the government?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I as a soldier at the time was to take the instructions given, not to determine the target as what group within whites.

MS COLLETT: As far as you were concerned, were white people who were fair in complexion?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Right.  Let's move to the next mission with which you were involved.
	Do you remember a mission at the Da Gama factory?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember it.

MS COLLETT: Can you tell us about the instructions you were given, where and by whom?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Our instruction we got from our commander, Jim Jones.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mind waiting a moment?
	We started very late this morning and the rest of us were walking around, but I don't whether those interpreting have been sitting in those boxes since 10 o'clock and would like to take a short adjournment at this stage.  If for any reason they would like to do so, could they please indicate?

INTERPRETER: No, there is no need Sir, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS COLLETT: Now, you say you were given instructions by Jimmy Jones, where were you given these instructions?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We were at the Mamma's Restaurant.

MS COLLETT: And who were present?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Myself, the late TNT, the late Kid, the late Luvuyo, known as Maxihole Mafu and African Tjabane.

MS COLLETT: Now, were you again issued with weapons?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MS COLLETT: And what instructions were you given regarding the Da Gama factory incident?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Our instructions were to attack the bus carrying white employees working at Da Gama.

MS COLLETT: Were you given instructions to carry out any other missions at the same time?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Can you tell the Committee about that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Our instructions were to attack the Da Gama and the minibus that was supposed to carry school kids moving from King Williams Town to East London and the Highgate Hotel.  We must choose between the Highgate Hotel and the East London bar here in town at the station.

MS COLLETT: Now, this bus that was taking children, were those white children?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Did APLA regard the white children as being enemies of the organisation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, is so.

MS COLLETT: Why?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because they too were part of the government of the day and because their parents were also white and working in favour of the government of the day.

MS COLLETT: Can you briefly outline to the Committee as to what happened with these respective attacks?