Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

MR DRAHT: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Dastile you and your brother requested people at the ANC offices to stay behind.  Is that correct?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, he did mention that.

MR DRAHT: But they didn't stay behind, they followed you.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DRAHT: And you also requested them to put down their arms.  Is that right?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: I put it to you that they also didn't put down their arms, they followed you armed with their weapons.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I did not see anyone armed.

MR DRAHT: Mr Dastile, who lived next to the river?  Was it predominantly IFP members?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was all sorts of people, not necessarily the IFP.  We did have ANC members residing along the river as well.

MR DRAHT: Do you know why the IFP youth removed the ANC posters, election posters?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No.

MR DRAHT: And did this removal of posters made the ANC supporters angry?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

MR DRAHT: After you heard the slogans, and you reported it, Mr Mzilele said "...they always say so."  What did you mean by this?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dastile's brother said that, yes.

MR LAX: Well which word don't you understand?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what's being asked Mr Dastile, you said  when you went to tell your brother about the words that you heard being uttered by the IFP members on the field about the amabatha, inkhosa, impondo, you went to your brother and told him and he said, look don't worry, it's all, this sort of thing's common, it's always happened, they're always saying this sort of thing but will never do anything.  The question is, what did you understand your brother to mean by saying that?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I understood him quite well that this will not necessarily lead to a fight, because this is what they usually keep saying but nothing happens.

MR DRAHT: So if we accept that the IFP usually said slogans like this, or uttered slogans like this, can we accept that there previously was tension between the IFP and the ANC?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I don't understand, would you please repeat that question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, what he's getting at Mr Dastile is, because of your brother's reaction, you go and tell him, you go to your brother and say, look, these IFP members are making threatening remarks about throwing out the Xhosa, Pondo and Bata, the ANC people, and your brother says, this is usual, it's common, don't worry about it.  He's saying to you, he's putting it to you, that your brother's attitude indicates that there may have been tensions, or there were tensions between the IFP and ANC before, because of that attitude, they must have previously insulted the ANC members.  It's indicative of a previous tension between the IFP and ANC.  What do you say to that?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I think that because of he tearing of the posters, this became something of concern to me, because, or should I say but I had to agree with my brother when he told me not to worry.  I trusted that he was sure of what he was saying.

MR LAX: Mr Dastile the issue is, had there been tension before, in the light of the fact that your brother said, from the way your brother spoke, he's implying these sorts of threats had happened in the past and he had ignored them.  He said this is usual.  What Mr Draht is asking you is, was there tension before as a result of such threats, or not.  That's really what he's asking you?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: There was no tension before this day.  We used to differ, but there was no tension.  We used to resolve problems as a committee, except that we started experiencing a problem on that particular day.

MR DRAHT: So previously when the IFP would uttered slogans like we are going ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: This witness said it was, that it was common for them to gather and sing their songs, their IFP songs, but he said what concerned him was, it was the first time he had heard these words being uttered about expelling the Xhosa, Pondo, Bata, that's why he went to his brother, and because of the context, because there was this problem relating to the removal of the tensions, of the political posters, but he specifically said it was the first time he had heard this direct threat about expelling the ANC people.

MR LAX: It was in fact his brother who had heard it many times, not him.  That's how he's put it.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Dastile, why would Mr Sithole threaten to shoot any ANC member, if there was no tension between the parties?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean, why would he shoot them?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Chairperson, why would he threaten to shoot them?

CHAIRPERSON: Our Mr Sithole or the other Mr Sithole?

MR DRAHT: Mr Sithole the applicant.  According to - Mr  Dastile yesterday testified that when they went down to the soccer field Mr Sithole said they, or Mr Dastile said, "...they threatened to shoot any ANC member.  Sithole said go talk to the ANC, I will go and speak to the IFP."

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sithole.  Do you say Mr Dastile said that Mr Sithole threatened to shoot ANC people?

MR DRAHT: That's correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: At that time that he went, after being to Mr Magwaza's house?

MR DRAHT: When they met Mr Sithole at the soccer field.  He testified that "...they threatened to shoot any ANC member and Sithole said go talk to the ANC, I will speak to the IFP."

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson I've also got that in my notes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's hear what you say to that Mr Dastile?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Before the question is put Chairperson, I want to say that the notes read correctly, but it is not as in Mr Sithole said.  He said they went to Sithole's place, there were other people there, and the notes are incorrect.  It's not Mr Sithole making the threat to shoot the people, as I understood it that was clearly not the position sir.

MR DRAHT: Chairperson I shall rephrase the question.  Mr Dastile why would the IFP members threaten to shoot any ANC member if there was no tension?

CHAIRPERSON: There was this huge tension about the problem at the shebeen.  He said the people were very angry and were shouting and making noises.

MR DRAHT: Chairperson it's my submission that the ANC or the people at the shebeen was angry, but the IFP people ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You mean why the I ...(inaudible)

MR LAX: Do you understand the question that's being put to you?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes I do understand the question.  I believe that I cannot speak on behalf of the IFP people as to whether they made that decision.  They are the ones who are better placed, who can explain pertaining to that decision.  What I know is that there were signs that indicated that there was a tension, like the ...(indistinct) approached us, for example, and it is the IFP itself that can explain why there was this tension.

CHAIRPERSON: Please continue Mr Draht.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Dastile, you also gave evidence that your brother said, "... we will not allow this."  What did you mean by that?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I am saying that he was trying to say to Sithole that it should be allowed that the people should fight, because of what happened at Moloetsi's place.  This should be stopped and we should not have a recurrence of what happened, of what Mpongosi did, because that will lead to fighting between the two groups.

MR DRAHT: Mr Dastile, I put it to you that the ANC was actually charging and attacking the IFP members.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: ANC was not attacking the IFP.

MR DRAHT: And I also put it to you that some IFP members tried to cross the river, but it was flooded.