Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

MR LUBBE: Now coming to paragraph 3 of your affidavit, Exhibit A, you confirm that you ended up, approximately during 1988, in Ermelo, is that correct?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: Can you also confirm that as far as your political involvement is concerned, that it is correctly reflected in paragraph 4.1, 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 of Exhibit A?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, it is so.

MR LUBBE: You became a member of the IFP in 1989, is that correct?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: And you were also a member of the youth organisation of the IFP, called the Black Cats.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That is correct.

MR LUBBE: Can you tell the Honourable Committee who were the leaders respectively, of the IFP and the Black Cats, when you joined in 1989.
	There seems to be a problem, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it working?  Alright.

MR LUBBE: Should I repeat the question?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes.

MR LUBBE: Can you tell the Honourable Committee who were the leaders respectively, of the IFP and the Black Cats, during your involvement in 1989, in Ermelo.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: I will begin by naming the leaders of the Black Cats.  The first person was Chris Ngwenya, whose deputy was Sabatha Zwane.  Those were the IFP leaders.  The IFP leaders in Ermelo were Madaka Hlatchwayo and Mr Mxobogazi.  Those were the person I knew to be the leaders of the IFP.

MR LUBBE: What was your position in the Black Cats itself in the organisation?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: In 1991, I was elected as the youth chairperson.

MR LUBBE: Can you briefly explain to the Committee what the aims and purposes were of the Black Cats.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: The Black Cats were an IFP structure, mainly the youth.  The IFP encountered problems at the time, to the effect that the ANC did not welcome them in the area.  They were called Black Cats, so as to hide the fact that they were an IFP structure, because the IFP itself was not welcome in Ermelo.  So the Black Cats were in effect, the IFP Youth Brigade.

MR LUBBE: Did the IFP and the Black Cats regard the ANC, at that point in time, as their political enemies in Ermelo?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, they regarded the ANC as the enemy.

MR LUBBE: Would you describe the struggle that existed between the IFP and the ANC, as a political struggle?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, it was a political conflict because we had political differences.

MR LUBBE: Now I want you to turn to paragraph 5 of Exhibit A, dealing with the list of convictions of which you were found guilty and for which you are currently being imprisoned.  Mr Chairperson, I'm turning to page 15 of the bundle, as well as page 22, 23 and 24, which is a summary in terms of Section 144(?) of the Criminal Procedure Act.
	Now the first charge which you faced in the Regional Court in Ermelo, was a charge of conspiracy to murder one, Mr Mashlungwela Jeremiah Shongwe.  The name appears on page 16 of the bundle.  According to the charge sheet, this incident took place on the 30th of July 1991.  Do you see that?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes.

MR LUBBE: Now reading through the documents it would seem that charge 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, as well as 8, on  pages 17, 18 and 19 of the bundle, also pertain to the same incident which charge 1 pertains to.  Is that correct, is that one incident that took place on the 30th of July 1991, at Wesselton?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: Now you pleaded guilty to these charges and eventually you were sentenced on these.  Can you briefly explain to the Committee the background to this specific incident, pertaining to charge 1 up until 8.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Mr Shongwe was suspected of having been responsible for the death of the Black Cats leader.  It was alleged that he had been with the deceased before he died.  That was Mr Sabatha Zwane.  Mr Mxobogazi then issued an order that Mr Shongwe should be killed.

MR LUBBE: Just before proceeding, let us pick it up at the very start.  This operation, this instruction that was to be executed, that was given by Mr Noah - I didn't get his surname.

MR SIBANYONI: The surname is Mxobogazi.

MR LUBBE: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.
	Now was this operation conducted by the Black Cats?  This order was issued to the Black Cats?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: He issued the order to Israel Hlongwane, who was the Instructor or Commander of the Black Cats.  Hlongwane then came and reported to us that such an order had been issued.

MR LUBBE: Let us first deal with Mr Hlongwane's position.   Ir has been testified by Mr Hlongwane - Mr Chairman, I'm not quite sure whether I may put this because in terms of the normal rules of evidence, this is not evidence, the bundle in front of you.  May I refer to the bundle as being evidence adduced by Mr Hlongwane, or is that not permitted?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you can, you can refer to that and you can elicit the comments of the applicant in regard to the allegations of Mr Hlongwane.

MR LUBBE: As it pleases you.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Now it has been testified by Mr Hlongwane, that he came from KwaZulu Natal to the Ermelo district in order to take charge of the Black Cats, is that in fact correct?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That is correct.

MR LUBBE: Yes.  Now this incident happened when he was already in Ermelo and being in charge of the Black Cats.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: And according to your evidence, he conveyed to you that he was instructed by Noah to execute this deed as contained in charge 1, 2 and 8.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.