Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

MR KAHANOVITZ: So this whole transaction where you pressed the button twice and then handed it on to Calla, and then the bomb went off, it is all while you are sitting in the car, parked at one spot?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Which part of the hall were you facing at the time?  Were you facing ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We were looking away from the hall, the hall was in the road where we were parked, the hall was on the right, to my rear.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Wouldn't you want to point the remote in the direction of the hall where the bomb is located?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It was not necessary to do that.  It wasn't said to me, it was not necessary to have a line of sight.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I understand that, but when it didn't work, did you not turn around and pointed it at the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I did.  I did.

MR KAHANOVITZ: When you turned around, what did you see?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Nothing.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you see lights on?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It may be that outside lights were on, it may be.

CHAIRPERSON: What about lights in the hall itself?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, if I can remember correctly, I do not think from that side where we were standing, that one could see if lights were burning inside the building.  I cannot remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You cannot remember whether there were lights on in the hall or not?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why, I am sorry Mr Chairperson ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... get some idea of the hall.  Did the hall have windows Mr van Zyl?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I suppose there would have had to be windows, but I cannot tell you exactly what it looked like.  I can imagine, because I know there is a parking area close to the area of the hall that I had seen, I cannot remember if there are windows, possibly there are windows.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you had seen lights on, would you have pressed the button?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: At that stage, I was satisfied that there were no people in the hall, and that is why we pressed the button.  I think whether the lights were on or not, would have been irrelevant.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It was irrelevant to you because on your version, you had made sure on the basis of information that Gakkie had given you, that the hall was empty, is that what you are saying?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.  And also based on my own reconnaissance.  Before we activated the bomb, the people left the hall, there were people that were identified to me by Gakkie, they got into their vehicles, they drove off and the bomb was activated, there were no vehicles parked in the parking area.
	On the basis of what Gakkie told me and on my own reconnaissance, I was satisfied that no one was in the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  The time that you say that the bomb went off, at nine o'clock?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you check your watch, why do you remember that particular time?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I observed the time at the stage that we were there, so it is an approximate time that I gave, nine o'clock, so I am reasonably satisfied that it would be very close to correct.
	After the bomb exploded, I did not look at my watch and say "this is exactly one minute passed nine", or something like that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you say if there is a margin of error, what might that margin of error be, two minutes, three minutes, five minutes, 25 minutes?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.  I think if I am mistaken with the time, it would probably be five minutes.  I believe so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But when did you look at your watch?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: At a stage, in the vehicle.

MR KAHANOVITZ: While you were driving away or before you pressed the remote?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I really cannot remember that sir.  I mean we arrived there at the site and Gakkie at a stage, went into the building, he came back and it is in that time that I was looking at my watch.
	I cannot tell you exactly when that was.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just to finish, I am going to come back to that, but just to finish with what Mr Botha has to say.  He says that
"... van Zyl asked him (that is Isgak) just to try one last time.  He went away again."
	I assume that you will say that is also untrue?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Absolutely.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you missed the sentence before as well?
"... He came back a second time and said that it does not work."

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is also untrue.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then
"... shortly afterwards we heard a bang.  Isgak (sorry it says Isak), Isgak came to fetch us and he took us to the airport.  Van Zyl made arrangements that his vehicle would be fetched and taken to the flat.  Van Zyl also phoned Burger from the airport."
	Your comment?
MR VAN ZYL
"... shortly afterwards we heard a bang,  Isgak came to fetch us ..."
	that is totally untrue.  I mean we were all three sitting in the vehicle.  I did leave my vehicle at the airport and I gave testimony to this effect.  I did - I cannot remember if I telephoned Staal from Jan Smuts airport.  It is possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, I want to take you through the sequence of events on that night on the basis of the evidence of various people who were in the hall.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Kahanovitz, before you do, can I just clarify something.  You said that Gakkie identified these people who were leaving the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: Did he identify them with reference to the previous list of names that you had been given?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, Mr Chairperson, of that.

MR LAX: So would it have been names like Mr Williams and people like that, who were leaving the hall at that stage?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you were told "those were the people who were getting into vehicles and driving away"?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: Thank you, I just wanted to clarify this before you moved on to this other aspect.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, in Bundle D, page 3, there is a statement from Mr Peter Williams.  In that statement he says in the first place that the meeting of the Kewtown youth started at 19H00.  Are you in a position to dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute that.  Our information was that it would start at 19H30.
	We only arrived at the premises at approximately 19H45, I cannot dispute that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says that their meeting ended at approximately eight o'clock, 20H00?  You weren't in the hall, I assume you are not in a position to dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: At approximately quarter past eight, that evening, Isgak reported to me that the persons were still busy in the hall with the meeting, so it does not agree with the time that Mr Williams is giving here.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, no, ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute it, because I did not see them there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What Mr Williams says is that the Kewtown youth meeting ended at 20H00, but following the meeting of the Kewtown youth, an organisation by the name of the Cape Youth Congress, had a meeting which started at 20H00 in another part of the building and that some people who were both members of Kewtown  youth and CAYCO, went to that CAYCO meeting in another part of the hall.
	I assume you are not in a position to dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then Miranda Abrahams, whose statement is at page 6 of Bundle D, she says that she attended this meeting of the Cape Youth Congress which commenced at approximately 20H00 and she said that while that meeting was taking place, the bomb exploded at approximately 20H35?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute the fact that there had been another meeting that she is referring to, but the time, 20H35, does not sound correct to me at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I assume you cannot dispute that she was attending a meeting in another part of the building at the time that the bomb exploded?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then you say you dispute her statement that the bomb exploded at approximately 20H35?