Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: From there we dispersed to our respective homes on that day.  No political activity took place that day.

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Then the day after the incident of the assault, we found it hard to assemble, as the girls especially they were afraid of being sjamboked again.

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: After that incident the village found it hard to accept that a single individual, accompanied by his sons, can just attack a mob of about 300 youths, aimlessly.

MR NDOU: What did they do?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So, the villagers held a big meeting.

MR NDOU: And when you say villagers, are you referring to both old and young?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, the whole village.  So when they held that meeting they wanted to know what was the cause behind the assaulting of the youth by the deceased and his sons.

CHAIRPERSON: When did this meeting take place?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Where?

CHAIRPERSON: When and where, yes?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The day after the incident of this assault at about 3, 4 in the afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So, the people came with different ideas and different solutions to the problems facing the youth, as the youth felt that they cannot be held ransom to their freedom they are longing for, because the assault itself had served the youth as a clear indication that their political  activities was a problem to the deceased as he has proved it by assaulting the youth as such.  So the people thought the best way to deal with the deceased was that we have to go to the headman and seek the "trek pass" so that he must be banished from the village.  So the headman came back from the Reef.  So he was made aware of the incident that took place in his absence.  So after hearing what had taken place he asked the people, "what do you think is going to be done because you are here asking me as the headman to come up with the solutions for us to live together as a village after what has happened," I am referring to the assault here.  So the people came to the conclusion that it is better for the deceased to leave the village because he was against our quest for freedom as he was still living in the dark ages, he was not aware of what is taking place.  I mean he was not aware of what was taking place at the time.

MR NDOU: And did the headman take any action?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course, he is the one who issued the "trek pass" and ordered his second man to go there and give the "trek pass" to the deceased so that he must leave the village.

MR NDOU: Did he leave?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Not at all.

MR NDOU: Do you know why he refused to go?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: We demanded an explanation as to why he is not thinking of going away from the village.  He said he cannot leave this village, he has worked and sweated for this village, he loved this village so much, he has already built his home and he has got children, he cannot just go and leave his home with wife and children and the like.

MR NDOU: And did the people accept this explanation?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: No, the people said "now you attack the people without coming to disclose your ideas of what was taking place, you just took matters upon your hands and took to sjambok the comrades, so we understand your idea of leaving your house and the children and the wife, but the best way for you to do, you can just take your wife and those small kids and leave those big sons to take care of the house.  As for now we find it difficult to engage in free political activity in your presence.  We are being sjamboked.  Who knows if tomorrow we are going to be killed, as you have already started.   So for us to be free, you have to leave."

MR NDOU: Now who did you want to leave?  Did you want him to leave with his family or did you just want him as an individual to leave?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: As an individual, because we were not having any grudges against the family as such.

MR NDOU: What would happen to his family?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: After he had left?

MR NDOU: Yes, if he were to leave as an individual, what did you expect of his family?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: We saw that he has got big sons who can take care of themselves.  They were not so young, they can fend for themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So after that he said, no, he's not going to leave because he loved the country, he has built his house and he has got wives and small children so we said that now that the man is not going to leave, what are we going to do?  The best way for us to do is to go to the station commander at Dzanani, to call the station commander to come there to advise the man to leave the village, as we desired him.

MR NDOU: Did the police come?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, of course.

MR NDOU: And what did they do?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: They wanted to interview the deceased, then he made himself available.  He was there but he told policemen point blank, "I'm not going to leave the village as I love the village and I've already sweated for the village, then I cannot leave my property behind."

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So we pleaded with the station commander that he must advise the deceased to leave the country because  whenever he try to risk and leave the deceased behind, there's going to be a big problem as the emotions of the people were running high at the time.  So the station commander said  "these matters are out of my hands, I cannot shoulder the responsibilities.   Everywhere I go I find smoke, I find people chanting, I find dead bodies around the world, so this I have to leave and you have to deal with the problem yourselves."

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Then the station commander went away with his escorts and leave us with the deceased.  It is then that the whole village came around the deceased's house and demanded his departure.

MR NDOU: And when was that?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: It was at about 3 to 4 in the afternoon.

MR NDOU: When?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: When?

MR NDOU: Do you still remember the date?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Not clearly.

MR NDOU: Okay. You say the village now converged on his house.  What were they going to do there?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: They pleaded with him to go, but he refused and the villagers again dispersed and left the man around.

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Then before sunset we heard that the deceased accompanied by his sons, they have devised a scheme with which they are going to deal with the comrades they have seen amongst us, because they regarded there were trouble makers amongst the villagers.  I was one of them, I mean of those who were pointed as trouble makers and so they said I have to be dealt with accordingly.  So what we did is that we saw the deceased with his sons coming from the filling station holding two 20 litres of petrol.  As we have heard that he was going to pay revenge, he was going to burn all those comrades houses, those who were involved in his departure.  Their houses were going to be burned and themselves were going to be dealt with accordingly.

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Then that was that until the day after the incident of the assault.  Then after that...(intervention

CHAIRPERSON: When did you see him with this petrol?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: It was the day after the station commander came and pleaded with him.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?  Look you had, the "trek pass" was issued the day after the assault.  When did the police come?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The day after.  Those incidents were happening subsequently day after day, day after day.

CHAIRPERSON: So two days after the assault the police came?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and three days afterwards you saw this petrol in his possession?