Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-09

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: This was authorised by Dr Wouter Basson, but there's also reference in these - since we're on the subject of BZ now, there's reference in these TRC documents of one thousand (1 000) kilograms of BZ that was made.  I have never seen BZ made in that quantity.  We have only made small lab quantities of these materials.

MR VALLY: Okay.  What was the relationship, your relationship and the relationship of Delta G to General Knobel?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I had never had anything to do with General Knobel, normally Dr Mijburgh had contact with him so I can't say what sort of relationship existed.

MR VALLY: Were any of the products manufactured at Delta G, to your knowledge, tested on people?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.

MR VALLY: Even in a war situation?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I am not aware of it.

MR VALLY: Were you aware of an incident in 1992 in Mozambique where it's alleged that a chemical weapon was used against Frelimo troops?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: If - it is possible that that refers to the analysis that we did on - I refer to that Dr Brian Davies brought back some scrap metal pieces there which he said was some device that had exploded there and had caused adverse effect.

MR VALLY: Was this Mozambique?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Oh not Mozambique, sorry that was ... (indistinct).

MR VALLY: Now I'm talking about an alleged attack on Mozambican troops in 1992.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, I'm not aware of that, sorry.  I was referring to Angola.

MR VALLY: Did you ever do tests to see if certain chemicals could be masked in mundane items and I can give you some examples, LD Carb in orange juice?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.

MR VALLY: Did you people ever manufacture LD Carb?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I don't think we manufactured LD Carb.  There was one attempt to synthesise organophosphate for commercial purposes, but it never came off the ground.  I think that Mr De Leeuw, one of the researchers there, was involved with that.  I can't remember the exact name, but it is a normal commercial organophosphate.

MR VALLY: Thallium?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: All I know about thallium is the analysis that was performed on the urine and blood samples, and I heard that on an official basis, Dr Basson once asked for one of the analysts in the analytical department to analyse for a sample that contained this.

MR VALLY: You don't know of Delta G Scientific either manufacturing or sourcing thallium?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.

MR VALLY: Sodium cyanide?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I used small quantities of sodium cyanide to prepare PCP, phencyclidine, which was a product that we made for Fischer Vet and I eventually made probably about five hundred and sixty (560) grams of this material.  This was on our schedule books and I eventually let Mr Van der Westhuizen of the Medicine Control Council write if off our books and he destroyed it personally.

MR VALLY: Paraquat?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Paraquat?

MR VALLY: Yes.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I know we did some analysis on paraquat and so on for outside groups because they also did some outside analysis for commercial purposes.  Paraquat and Parathion and so on.

MR VALLY: Was it available from your facility?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, we used reference substances which we bought through normal channels.

MR VALLY: If Dr Wouter Basson or RRL or anyone else was to ask for any of these items I have mentioned, could they access it from your facility?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well it's not impossible that this could occur, but I am not aware that any of my personal or myself have given such compounds to Dr Basson.

MR VALLY: Did you ever do any experiments as to how it would mix with item like orange - any of these substances, orange juice, whisky?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.  I don't believe that any of my people, as far as I know at least from 1986 onwards when I was there, was involved in any sort of dirty tricks, sort of material compositions or supplying poisons like histrionicotoxin which I referred to in one of my, or some of the trichotezines or anything like that, I'm not aware of it.

MR VALLY: Sodium azide?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Sodium azide is a normal common reagent to bring in nitrogen groups into organic molecules.  You can't manufacture it, it's rather dangerous to make that so we haven't made sodium azide on large scale at Delta G.

MR VALLY: But it was at - you had quantities at your ... (intervention)

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: We had lab quantities available, yes.

MR VALLY: Right.  Cyanide?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Cyanide you would always have available, it's a common reagent.

MR VALLY: Digoxin?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Digoxin is a cardiac glycocide, I believe that there was small quantities of Digoxin on that was - Stephen Beukes was in charge of that, of those pharmaceuticals.

MR VALLY: Colchamine?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Colchamine?  There could have been colchamine there, ja.

MR VALLY: Catharidine?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Cantharidin?

MR VALLY: Cantharidin, I beg your pardon.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: That is a constituent of the Spanish fly which is supposed to enhance one's male attributes, but no I'm not sure that we had cantharidin there.  It is possible that it could have been, but that would have been under the control of Mr Stephen Beukes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it have been something stronger than Viagra?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Cantharidin is supposed to be a love potion that you can give to a lady.

MR VALLY: I wouldn't recommend it Mr Chairperson from what we've read about it.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: It irritates your urinary tract and is quite poisonous.

MR VALLY: Finally, when did you first discover - or let me rephrase this, in retrospect, do you believe that ecstasy and mandrax will be manufactured on a large scale for purposes other than chemical and biological warfare purposes?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I could envisage that mandrax could be manufactured on large scale for incapacitation purposes, but from my personal point of view I don't think that ecstasy is an ideal compound to use as an incapacitant and I differed from my superiors where that was concerned, and I told them that.

MR VALLY: Have you seen any studies or any projections by anyone involved regarding the possible usage of mandrax as an indirect control mechanism by introducing it into certain areas which were possibly prone to political uprisings so as to create addiction to it?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, I was never given that impression and I doubt whether one can get addicted to Ecstasy, not as far as I know.

MR VALLY: I'm talking about mandrax.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: About mandrax, no.

MR VALLY: You haven't seen any studies or documentation in that regard?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, sir no I haven't.

MR VALLY: Have you ever studied the literature on the issue?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, I have studied things like mandrax and the analysis of that because that was part and parcel of our Incos Data System and we had permits to keep small quantities of mandrax for analytical purposes and for this purpose we, I obtained quite a number of publications by the relevant authorities that analysed for these sort  drugs of abuse.  I've got these papers in my possession, but I haven't seen any studies that relate to the other things you have referred to now.

MR VALLY: Is there an issue of concern to you, as a chemist, the possibility that such an addictive drug which is allegedly been responsible for fuelling a lot of the crime in this country which has enslaved so many of our youth, was possibly produced in laboratories where you were head of research?