Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-25

MS VAN DER WALT: Mrs Phungula, the applicants came here because of a situation that took place in the country, and this Committee was appointed as well as the whole Truth and Reconciliation Commission, to see if there is not in a broken country, a possibility of reconciliation.
	Do you also understand the workings of this Commission as such?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Yes, I do.  I understand how the Commission works, but I personally can say have come from far away with this very same people.
	I have been to court during their prosecution after my operation and they gave me very disturbing glances.  They were talking in their language which I could not understand.
	I have been to their Supreme Court testifying.  If they had been instructed to do this, and perhaps if they have any remorse for this, they should have thought about this and expressed it thus.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am not sure that anybody can understand your pain and I also would not like to say that anything you went through, is not exactly how you testified, but would you also not like there to be peace between parties and reconciliation?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: No, I do not have any forgiveness.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you are also not ready because it is the wishes of the applicants, to reach out their hand to you and to talk to you about this incident, are you not prepared to do that?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I don't think that that will make any difference.  I did indicate before that I want to ask them a question.  They should be the ones giving me answers.
	The person that I was carrying, is four years old today.  Don't they feel sorry about what they did to me and therefore I am not prepared to talk to them and discuss reconciliation with them.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: .

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No questions.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: .

MS CAMBANIS: No questions.

MS CAMBANIS: .

MR LANDMAN: No questions Mr Chairman.

MR LANDMAN: .

MR PRIOR: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MR MALAN: Mrs Phungula, the procedure is such here that the applicants cannot now answer you directly, they are not in a position to ask your question.
	My question to you, if your lawyer could arrange with their lawyers to see them after or outside, so that they can get an opportunity to answer you, would you be prepared to work with your lawyer, would you consider that?
	We don't expect it of you, I am just asking whether you feel you could perhaps consider if they would so wish, to answer the question that you have put to them.  You don't even have to answer me, you can just bear that in mind.  If that would be possible, it may lead to assisting you to better cope and manage yourself and it may assist them too.
	I am just leaving that with you.

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I still have to think about this, but for now, I really have not decided that I should confer with my lawyer to confer with their lawyers about this.

MR MALAN: I can understand that, thank you very much.

ADV GCABASHE: Mrs Phungula, I would like to ask were there many people there on that day?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Yes, there were many people Chairperson, such that before the elections, it was indicated that we should buy food and stock our food in bulk and taxi's were parked in front of the shop.  Many of them, there were many people up and down moving there.
	There were many people indeed.

ADV GCABASHE: In other words, these people, the applicants realised that there were many people moving up and down there?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Yes, it is as I put it.  They came to the place and must have identified it as a target.  They came with their car, but could not find a parking because there were many taxi's and when they came for the second time, the owner of the shop had just left and there was an open parking.
	They moved, unhooked the trailer, pushed it.  There were many people, some of them sitting there, inside and outside the taxi, drinking tea.
	Really there was an up and down movement on that day.  It was on the 25th, almost month end.

ADV GCABASHE: Would you please explain were there whites apart from the one white person with whom you were working, were there other white people there?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I would like to clarify this.  That place is mostly patronaged by blacks.  Yes, there were whites but these whites must have been people who were just walking passed.  There is a flat nearby and some of these whites, stay there, but mostly there were black people in that area.

ADV GCABASHE: Did they indeed see that you were pregnant?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: They were looking at me Chairperson, my pregnancy was obvious.  I spoke to them in Zulu, asking them as to why they were parking this thing in front of the shop.  They were looking at me and I think that they must have concluded that I am dying today.
	After parking this trailer, they went back into their car and drove away.  Fortunately I was looking at them, I was looking at them, that is why I had to go as far as appearing in court to testify against them.

ADV GCABASHE: In court, would you say none among them came to you to ask for forgiveness?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: What they did at the end of their court case, when I walked out of the court, they had closed the lifts so that we could not go to the ground floor, and we had to use the staircase.  We used the staircase and they used the lift.
	I don't know where they disappeared to.  That is after I had given my testimony in court.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much.

ADV BOSMAN: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phungula this trailer, was it parked amongst the taxi's?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In front of the shop?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: It was parked right facing the door to the shop.

CHAIRPERSON: In that vicinity, is that known as a taxi rank?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, there is a taxi rank in that area, but because there were taxi's in front of the shop, the reason being that they were loading some things, yes, there is a taxi rank nearby.

CHAIRPERSON: How near was the taxi rank from the shop?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Chairperson, I would  say the taxi rank is - it is in front of the shop.  I don't know how to explain this.  For example if you are outside of this building, the distance would be the same as that between the taxi rank and the shop, from here to the outside of the building.
	That may be the distance.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, Mrs Phungula, I just want to say that I can quite understand your feelings that you have expressed this afternoon.  I appreciate the fact that you have been honest enough to say how angry you are.
	But you know, a lot of atrocities have occurred in this country over the past years, some justified, some not.
	I can only hope that with time, your anger will diminish and that we can get on with our lives in this new country of ours.  I honestly hope that you can be the mother that you want to be to your children.
	We have no further questions, thank you.  Oh, there is one more question.

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Thank you very much.

MR MALAN: Mrs Phungula, sorry that I am keeping you.  The child next to you, is that your child?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Is that the one she was pregnant with?

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Yes, that is the one.

MR MALAN: Thank you, we wish he will be a treasure to you and that you will be proud of him in his life to come.

MAVIS PHUNGULA: Yes, very much so.  Thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other witnesses that we are able to deal with today?
	We will then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, after the discussions in your chambers, I have managed to contact the witnesses that were to arrive tomorrow, and postponed it until September.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)

MR PRIOR: The 14th of September, is that the date?