Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: It's not true, we were not attacking Fawu but we were attacking the ANC.  As I've already stated I regard Fawu and the ANC to be one thing.

MR SITHOLE: I think that is all, Madam Chair.  I think I will be calling one witness who would come and give just a perspective of the side of the Fawu members as to what was happening during that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the people who were attacked in the bus not people who were proceeding to a particular conference?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Are those not your instructions?

MR SITHOLE: No, Madam Chair, these were people who were coming from work.

CHAIRPERSON: And going home?

MR SITHOLE: And going home.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to Mr Hadebe?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to put such questions.

MS THABETE: Thank you.
	Mr Hadebe, from your evidence would I be correct to say you are saying that as IFP people at work or as Uwusa people at work, you were being attacked by Fawu people?  Is that what you have been saying?  Would it be correct for me to say this?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I'm sorry I didn't get that exactly, what you are trying to say.

MS THABETE: Then can you explain to me, on page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think there was no translation ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Ja, I didn't get exactly what he was trying to say, that is why I'm trying to put the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like Ms Thabete to repeat her question, Mr Translator?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, would you be kind enough to repeat your question so that it can be properly translated to Mr Hadebe?

MS THABETE: Okay.
	My question is, from the evidence that Mr Hadebe, you've led, would I be correct to say that you have testified that the Fawu members at work were attacking you as Uwusa members?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: It's correct that ANC members who are Fawu members were attacking us inside the factory and also outside the factory.

MS THABETE: When you say outside the firm, what do you mean?  Were they attacking you at the hostels?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would say from the hostel itself and even at work.  Before we entered the work premises we also got attacked.  I would ...(intervention)

MS THABETE: Before you do, I just want to get to the point, I don't want you to elaborate, I'll ask you the questions.  I think you have answered my question.
	My next question is, one page 12 of the bundle which is paragraph 15 of your second affidavit - do you have it in front of you?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, I do.

MS THABETE: It reads as follows
"I was working at Escort Bacon Factory and was a member of Uwusa.  Here we had other people who joined Fawu.  These people were always attacked by us at their homes and at work.  We used to carry our traditional weapons when going to work and leave them with the security at the gate.  This was not allowed but it was only allowed because it was Uwusa members who carried them and attacking Fawu members after work."
Can you explain what you meant by that in relation to the version that you've given us today?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, these things did happen, that when we're going to work we were armed with traditional weapons because there was a time of which I can't remember the exact time, we were not able to board taxis because they shot at one of our taxis, the taxis that normally took us to work.  Fortunately no-one was killed but some people were injured and therefore we had to go to work on foot, armed with these weapons.
	When we arrive at work we would leave those weapons at the gate with the security who were guarding the firm and after work we will take our weapons and we'll take them home because outside the firm there is a station and you'll find a great number of ANC members and you couldn't pass so therefore we used to take them to defend ourselves against them with these weapons.

MS THABETE: Mr Hadebe, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Hadebe.  We would appreciate it if you could just confine your responses to questions put to you.  I think the reason - the question that was put to you was, why are you saying you were under constant and various attacks by the ANC at work and outside the work environment when at paragraph 15 you have stated that you were the ones who always attacked the ANC people, both at their homes and at their work?  Do you see the contradiction?
	Initially you said you were the subject of various attacks at the hands of the ANC, whereas in your affidavit you are saying it was not the ANC members who were under constant, who were being a subject of attacks, it was you as members of Uwusa who always attacked the members of the ANC at their homes and at work.  I think that's the contradiction that Ms Thabete is trying to clear.  
	If you can explain the contradiction you may do so, if you can't please say so.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would like to explain that when we attacked - with respect I would like to apologise if it looked like I'm contradicting myself, I will try within my powers to explain exactly what happened.
	In our attacks to ANC members, whether they were Fawu members or ANC members, it would happen in this way;  they would come first to attack us and we will go back and attack them.  That's the reason why I said we were attacking them.

CHAIRPERSON: So they started attacking you and it took you a long time before you could retaliate and attack them, and that is why your affidavit stands as it does? Because it gives the impression that they never attacked you, that you were the only ones who were attacking them.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, it's us who attacked them but after they have attacked us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And further, if you just have a reference to paragraph 14, you say that you respected the ANC because you had never seen nor heard anything bad about them, that it was always you who were always provoking and killing them and that you were misled by your party.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I do accept that before I used to respect the ANC because if there was a conflict and we all wanted to sit down and reconcile and talk, I personally was able to go to the township without any problem to go and discuss things with the youth.   I would go to the hall in the community and talk to the people and I would also accompany them to peace committees or peace meetings in town.
	However, when any person who is a member of Inkatha goes to the committee, the township will be attacked or assaulted and that is the reason why I said I respected them.  
	That respect only disappeared after I was also pointed out as a person who is left out, who is going to be attacked because it was said I was the one who was leading the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were pointed out on the 28th of September 1993 and this affidavit was signed by you on the 16th of October 1996.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, basically what I'm saying to you is that there is no suggestion in your affidavit that any attacks were launched by the ANC either on the IFP or attacks on the Uwusa members, because this affidavit which signed long after you were pointed out by Uwusa members or  your colleagues.  You made no suggestion that the ANC equally provoked you, instead you said the provocation came from your side only.  And this you say three years after you were pointed at by the ANC, which pointing provoked you.