Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Ja.  Without the knowledge, without the contacts I had.  I brought in the projects.  I brought in several overseas projects to keep up the front.  They followed me.  In fact scientists got off the plane in Johannesburg to do work in Pretoria, where I was, and when they heard I wasn't there you know what, they packed up and left.  Not working at Pretoria anymore.  They wanted not to be involved if I wasn't involved in the research.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chaskalson I suggest this should be the end of this segment.  The future will be at 11 o'clock when we begin.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chaskalson?

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you.
 Dr Goosen, yesterday we heard of a meeting or possibly an informal discussion in which Dr van Rensburg said that you had told people something to the effect that their lives may have been in danger if they tried to leave the company, is this correct?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Mr Chairman no, the way you phrased it is not correct.

MR CHASKALSON: Could you tell us what happened?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: It's not when you try to leave the country ...[intervention]

MR CHASKALSON: Company.

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Ja, it's not when you try to leave the company, you were free to leave the company.  It was when you tried to jeopardise or undermine or give out the secrets we would have had the full, the secret thing we signed, that Act on us and I believe it is high treason and high treason is a capital charge.  So that is the situation.
 If you jeopardise the security or the projects etc., you could have been charged and the death penalty could have been imposed on you.

MR CHASKALSON: The understanding that I had from Dr van Rensburg is that he was talking about a threat from some or other people, is this not correct?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Chairman, I did convey at a official meeting, I think it was a board meeting, that everyone must understand the seriousness of the business of the company and not make light of it because by implication it is true, that if you jeopardise the security of the company you could find yourself in you know, charged with high treason and high treason is a capital offence.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you tell us your perceptions of how the other scientists related to the change in management, that is when Dr Swanepoel replaced you?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Mr Chairman, my perception was and based upon what by many scientists, that they were not sure why I was replaced, they were very unsure about the command structure and there was a bit of fear in the background, if this could happen so easily, me being replaced just like that, everyone felt a little bit threatened.  You can also - it is on record and it is available or it can be available, written testimonies to this effect.

MR CHASKALSON: We were told yesterday that you were moved to the Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises at this time, is that correct?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: And you conducted work which was not strictly related to the programme during this period.

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Were you at any stage during this - sorry, let me start again.  Dr Swanepoel said that would, you still remained under his control during this period, is that correct?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR CHASKALSON: At any stage were you approached by Dr Swanepoel as to what was going on at RRL since you had left?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Mr Chairman, I'm not too sure ...[intervention]

MR CHASKALSON: Did Dr Swanepoel request your assistance with the running of RRL?