Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR DLAMINI: When I heard when I arrived home, he was working at Rainbow, driving the busses Rainbow that actually commute people to and from work.  He was taken out at Unit 4 in a bus on his way to work   They took him out there, they stabbed him and shot him.  They stabbed him and they burned him.  I heard that when I arrived at home.

MR STEWART: Where is your home now Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: Do you mean right now?  Right now I stay at Maintain, but home, real home, is here in Hammarsdale in Unit 2.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini you've been involved in many incidents in this area as you've explained.  Do you wish to return to this area?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is my wish.  Yes, indeed.

MR STEWART: When you look now, when you look back on those activities and incidents that you were involved in, what do you think about them?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, what I can say, when I look back in all what was happening until I got injured, political leaders knew how to instil this political indoctrination if I may say.  That is how I found myself involved in this politics.  These political leaders knew to make us do all these things.
	I didn't actually just came about think of doing this by myself, there were people who was actually - who were instructing me to do this, go there and do this.  And when I refer back and look now, there was not even a little need that I should have done all what I have done because a lot of people died and got injured because of what we did here.  Why?  Because of the politicians, because if I did not allow them in that, I wouldn't be like this.  
	Even the community here at Mpumalanga know that, that a lot of their children died because of political reasons, and all those who survived because of politics.  Therefore I say to the Mpumalanga community, in what they are in this unity that is here at Mpumalanga, I wish that you can be forever as it is.  And all those people, especially who are still young, because I started when I was very young in this politics business.  
	They shouldn't dare actually partake in political reasons because that will go back in the situation that we find yourself in.  Why?  Because of political leaders, you do something and the person will actually leave you as you are, and actually deny you and say "I don't know you anymore".  That's why I say to the Mpumalanga community they should be united in what they are.  This unity - or this political thing, they must just do away with it, they must continue in unity and education must continue as it is right now.  That is what I can say to the community, and that they should accept me if I do come back as a person who was born here.  I thank you Chairperson.

MR STEWART: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart.
	Mr Wills do have any questions to the witness?

MR WILLS: No questions Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, do you have questions to put to the witness.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes I have questions.  Mr Dlamini in your group that operated in Mpumalanga, was there another Caprivi an known as Zwele Dlamini, other that yourself?

MR DLAMINI: Can I just explain about this Zwele Dlamini.  There is somebody else called Zwele Dlamini, he's from Johannesburg.  This Zwele Dlamini used to work at the Kwamashu BSI, headed by Katie Nshlengo.

MR NGUBANE: Is the man whose other name is Godfrey Dlamini - Zwele Godfrey Dlamini, do you know that name?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now you and Nyoni Hlongwane have mentioned the name of Nkeshle - Zakele Nkeshle extensively.  Just tell us a little bit about the Inkatha leadership, was Nkeshle the only Inkatha who worked with you, or what was the position?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, at my section in Unit 2 there was a councillor, Mr Bengo who worked closely with Zakele Nkeshle.  He himself was also a member of the IFP at the time.  I mentioned the person that I knew, and from my section.

MR NGUBANE: Well my question is directed to the Inkatha people who were directing you to commit certain acts linked with what you call political activities, acts of destroying houses and killing people.  Are you saying that Nkeshle and Bengo are the only ones, or it was a more extensive Inkatha leadership?

MR DLAMINI: I'll say Zakele Nkeshle is the one person who concentrated mainly on the youth and he used to move around the entire township, and therefore he is the one person who used to tell us that UDF was our enemy.

MR NGUBANE: Now Mr Dlamini, let me put the questions directly to you, did you at any stage receive any instructions from an Inkatha person other than Nkeshle and Bengo to do acts of violence in Mpumalanga?

MR DLAMINI: No, there was no other person except for Zakele.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  Did you receive any sanctuary from any other Inkatha high-ranking officer in Mpumalanga, other than Nkeshle and Bengo after you had committed any act of violence?

MR DLAMINI: I mentioned Zakele Nkeshle's name before I went to Caprivi.  After I returned from Caprivi the person who gave me instruction was Mudla Induna and MZ Khumalo.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  No local leader in Mpumalanga ever, other than Nkeshle and Bengo, every gave you instructions to commit acts of violence, is that what you're saying?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know there was reference to an Inkatha leader known as Mercy Sithulu.  Was he in fact the leader of the IFP - local IFP in Mpumalanga?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, she was the leader of the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Did she have anything with your instructions to commit any violence, or with providing you sanctuary after you had committed acts of violence - at any stage?

MR DLAMINI: No, not at all.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know a red motor vehicle that used to operate in Mpumalanga which was known as "Tomato"?

MR DLAMINI: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, Mr Dlamini, the question was, do you know a red motor vehicle that used to operate in Mpumalanga which was known as "Tomato".

MR NGUBANE: Yes I know it.

MR DLAMINI: Did you at any stage participate or travel in that motor vehicle, in executing certain acts of violence against the UDF members or families?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Just tell us more about that motor vehicle, where it originated, how it operated, if you know.

MR DLAMINI: What I know is that that car belongs Sipho Mlaba.  I am not aware of its activities ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN

MR DLAMINI: I would like to explain, there was a group of Telewenies in Mpumalanga.  I have never operated with these people.  This car was normally driven by a person called Mpashaza.  I know this person, but I have never worked with him, but I knew him to be Mr Sipho Mlaba's driver.  I have not on one occasion used this car on attacks, but I knew that it belonged to Sipho Mlaba.

MR MOTATA: In that respect Mr Ngubane, he has just told us that he operated twice - before he was trained as a Caprivi an, and subsequently as a Caprivi an.  So we would want to know in which period was this vehicle used.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Dlamini you say you know this motor vehicle.   At what period do you know it?

MR DLAMINI: I think it was roundabout 1987.

MR NGUBANE: That is after you had come back from Caprivi, or was it before?

MR DLAMINI: After I came back from Caprivi.

MR NGUBANE: Now you say that you knew that it belonged to a certain Mlaba, that motor vehicle.  Were you aware of its activities in Mpumalanga?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I heard complaints about it.  People will say they'd seen it there and there, but I have no specific knowledge of what it did.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, let Mr Ngubane ask a question.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chair.  You used the Zulu word "kalangiyo", which means "they're crying about it".  What was the cry all about?