Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

CHAIRPERSON: Doesn't the record clearly show that he was transferred from Ladybrand to the South African police college at Hammanskraal on the 4th of July 1986?  He was transferred from the college to the unrest unit headquarters on the 4th of December 1986.  Is that not what is reflected there Colonel?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is quite right your Honour.

ADV MEMANI: And what does the entry which says Hammanskraal, hoofkantoor?

CHAIRPERSON: It is from - if you look at the heading, it's says from the college at Hammanskraal.  The next column is headed 2 - Onluste Eenheid Hoofkantoor.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases, I interpreted that as two entries.
	There is also a computer print-out - if I may have a loot at the index Mr Chairman, to get the document.

ADV DE JAGER: Page 68.

ADV MEMANI: Have you got B68 now Colonel?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, I do.

ADV MEMANI: Let's look at the last two entries, there's the 4th of December 1986 which is visible policing unit, unit 19.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, I do see it.

ADV MEMANI: Is it correct that that suggests that he was with the visible policing unit, unit 19 during the period 4 December 1986 onwards?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is how I see it your Honour.

ADV MEMANI: And then on the 18th of May 1987 he would have been transferred from unit 19 to the college at Hammanskraal?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I see that it says before that Human Resources Management.  If I remember correctly, it would usually be where a person would go to some sort of course or if he would go for training, then it is indicated as Human Resources Management, that is the extent to which I can comment Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: You see, Mr Ngo was surprised to see that there was any suggestion that he ever went back to Hammanskraal or that he ever underwent any training course during that period.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I cannot comment on that.

ADV MEMANI: And that coincides with the period when he says that he was working with the security branch of the Northern Transvaal onwards.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is what he says.

ADV MEMANI: You also told us that before a person was taken into the Northern Transvaal security branch, he would undergone an orientation course which would have included training him on how to deal with informers and so on.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I said that.

ADV MEMANI: And Mr Ngo himself, had handled informers and had been an informer for a period of at least four years prior to him being at Pretoria.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I don't know, that's what he says.

ADV MEMANI: Accordingly it would not have been necessary for Mr Ngo to be a useful - in order to be a useful member, to have undergone the orientation course.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I would probably have determined that if I followed up his application.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Ngo will say that he was in fact  - has said that he was in fact serving in the security branch.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, that man never ever, not for a second in his life worked for the security branch in the Northern Transvaal.  I repeat, not for a second.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Ngo came from the Free State or we are in the Free State, left the Free State and went to Pretoria and he says that he participated in the attacks of various house at Pretoria.  For what reason would Mr Ngo have attacked residences in Pretoria?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: You are his legal representative, you'll have to ask him that question.

ADV MEMANI: He has given me instructions and he has told the Committee that he did so in his capacity as a member of the security branch.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: The previous question that you asked me Mr Chair - the previous question you asked me, I told you that the man never worked a second for the security police in the Northern Transvaal.

ADV MEMANI: Are you suggesting that for no good reason, Mr Ngo implicates himself in arson, murder and attempted murder?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I don't know what his motivation and/or reasons would be.

ADV MEMANI: Colonel Loots, you do not dispute that Louisa Mbongo's house was burnt down, do you?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I cannot recall her as a person at all.  When her name was mentioned here, I tried to place this person but neither her address nor her person I can remember, I cannot comment on that.

ADV MEMANI: You also do not dispute that her house was burnt by Ngo, the applicant.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Could you please repeat that, I'm sorry.

ADV MEMANI: You do not dispute and you cannot dispute that the house was burnt down by Ngo?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: According to Ngo it was burnt.  How can I comment on that?

ADV MEMANI: And you cannot dispute that he did so in the company of Bokaba and Selahla?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, on what date was that house burnt down?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Loots, I have asked you a question, you must answer the question.  The question is, you cannot dispute that the house was burnt down by Ngo whilst he was in the company of Bokaba and Selahla.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is what your client says, I cannot argue on that.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, maybe I can just state for the record, the dates referred to on page 43 of bundle A, refers to 1987 to 1988.  That is on the one hand, on the other hand in bundle C, there's a reference to a period of three weeks.  That is all that we have about the dates.
	Mr Chairman, it is bundle C, page 13, paragraph B(a) and the heading there is also during 1987 '88.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes.

ADV MEMANI: Colonel, you do not dispute that Nono Girl's house was burnt down, do you?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: If he says that, he burnt down the house.  I was not at the scene, how would I know?

ADV MEMANI: And you cannot dispute that the house was burnt down by Ngo who was in the company of Bokaba and Selahla.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Once again, that is what he said, how can I dispute that?  I cannot comment on that.

ADV MEMANI: And you've told us that you were the officer in command responsible for amongst others, Mamelodi?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That's what I testified Mr Chair, that's correct.

ADV MEMANI: You would then have had access about Louisa Mbongo if she was an activist?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: But of course yes, I would have had such information.  I can just not recall it, whether or not I did or did not.

ADV MEMANI: And when confronted with the application of Mr Ngo, you would have gone to the records and to see whether there was ever any activist in Mamelodi who was Louisa Mbongo?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: It has repeatedly been testified before this Amnesty Committee that all record have been destroyed on Regional and on National level.

ADV MEMANI: And you would have been able to verify at least from a local police station, whether such an arson took place or not?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: One could perhaps go to their records but I did not go to that trouble.

ADV MEMANI: And you also do not dispute that Mbongo was a member of MYO?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I don't want to object unnecessarily but maybe Mr Memani can give us an indication if they tried to ascertain exactly from the information in the records at the police station, if such an attack took place.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the way I understand it, it would have been the investigating unit of the TRC which would have gone and sought to verify.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Loots, you do not dispute that Louisa Mbongo was a member of MYO?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: It is possible, I don't know.