Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR PHOSA: I'm making an assumption - assuming you still wanted to change your mind you were given an opportunity before they were killed - after they were abducted you were given a chance and you could have said: "No", if you wanted to do so.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, and today I want to say to the Committee that I strongly considered doing that after it was reported to me, I considered stopping the whole process.

MR PHOSA: Can it be perhaps that you were yourself afraid of your colleagues. that they might eliminate you if you said: "No"?  I'm really trying to find out what's behind your decision, was there possible fear that: "If I stop now - I've gone too far, they might get rid of me"

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No Chairperson, I wasn't scared that anybody would eliminate me, I had no reason to believe that my colleagues would want to eliminate me.  I took that decision based on the circumstances sketched to me so I considered it, I really seriously considered it.  If I remember correctly, I was not in Port Elizabeth on that day, on the day that it was reported to me and I would like to say to you that the possibility to turn around was no longer there.

MR PHOSA: I did not listen to your words directly, at that moment I was listening to the interpretation in English, so I want just to make sure that I heard correctly.  As it came out it says: "I want to say to you that the possibility of turning it around no longer existed", is that correctly interpreted?

ADV DE JAGER: His exact words was: "The road for turning around was no longer there".

MR PHOSA: Please allow me - you know people interpret words and phrases differently.   I understand that to say: "No matter what I wanted to do, even if I wanted to change it, I could no longer personally change it", is that what you're saying?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I could not change my decision at that stage.

MR PHOSA: At that stage you say the matter was beyond your control, your personal control?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm saying Chairperson, that I accept the responsibility for what happened here, I'm not saying that it was outside of my control.

MR PHOSA: Unfortunately I have to deal with every portion of your answer then you can clear it.  I'm not dealing with whether you accept responsibility, I'm asking you literally, are you saying: "At that stage when the report was given to me when I was outside - if I think correctly, outside Port Elizabeth.  I as Erasmus, could no longer do anything to stop it even if I had wanted to".  Are you saying that or not?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I said that I could no longer change my decision.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Phosa, could I try and help?
	Mr Erasmus, you said could not change your decision at that stage and that you assume responsibility for that.  What Mr Phosa wants to get from you is, why could you not change your decision?  What caused you to stand by your previous decision and not to change it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I would like to answer this question as follows as to why I did not change my decision after having considered doing so.  There were these two people who had literally been abducted and kidnapped, now from that further and bigger problems could arise.

MR PHOSA: You will bear with my ignorance really, I don't understand that.  You knew that without you the three other persons - let's say the two who spoke to you were unable to go ahead with the decision, they had to get your permission, remember that -they had to wait for your nod?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: At that stage after the kidnapping - at that stage my decision had already been given, it had been given before the kidnapping so the operation was now in full swing, it was in the execution phase so ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the entire sentence.

ADV SANDI: Could you repeat that, the interpreter Mr Erasmus, has not heard what you've just said.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm saying Chairperson, that at that stage when the report was made to me that these two deceased had been caught and abducted, at that stage I had already made my decision at an earlier stage so it wasn't necessary for me at that late stage to give the decision or the order again.

MR PHOSA: You seem to suddenly miss the point, no-one asked you why you did not give the order to kill again.  The question being asked is whether at that stage you were physically in a position to say: "Hey, stop it"?  Now I understood you to be saying: "Hey, it was too late, I could not do it".

ADV DE JAGER: What he in fact said, he reconsidered it but decided not to stop it.

MR PHOSA: ...[inaudible] I don't think he said so but I don't - I don't think he said so.
	Are you saying that when they told you: "The man is captured now", you said to yourself: "Must they go on, must they not", said: "Let them go on, that decision is quite correct, let them go on - my earlier decision was correct".  Is that what went on in your mind?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm saying it was reported to me and I ran through it in my own mind, there was nobody else with whom I could discuss this.  The people were already being conveyed somewhere, an abduction had taken place and after consideration I decided that I couldn't stop it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know where they were being taken to?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can't recall whether they told me at that stage where they were taking them.

ADV SANDI: In terms of the decision, where were they going to be abducted and taken to - in terms of the decision you had taken together?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I don't recall that particular aspect, I can't recall whether we decided on a particular place and as I said, after I had made my decision the operation was then entrusted to my colleagues and they had to decide on a particular place.

MR PHOSA: Because you indicated that this is a matter that really bothers you a lot, I assume that you do recall where - according to the report you got, where they were abducted from, in other words where were they when they were abducted, do you remember that?  It's something you can't forget.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The report was made to me telephonically and - if I'm now saying  I think it was du Plessis, that told me they were abducted from point A or point B then I would actually be misleading the Committee.

MR PHOSA: Be that as it may.  Now, am I correct in the understanding that they were not eliminated on the day on which they were abducted - on the same day?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I think that is correct, yes.

MR PHOSA: Sorry, when did you get to know that they were either not going to be eliminated on that day or that in fact on that day they were not eliminated, when did that get to your ...[inaudible]

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: My knowledge of this incident is to the effect that when - my knowledge about this comes from when it was reported back to me after the incident that is was successful.

MR PHOSA: Now I just want clarity on this.  Are you saying on the occasion - on the date that these two people were abducted, you were not informed on that day that they are still alive, they have not yet been eliminated - at the end of that day you were not informed?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: What I'm saying is that when they reported to me that they had been picked up, the report was that they were still alive.  And I took note of the fact that the operation had been completed, that is what I can say to the Committee, nothing more.

MR PHOSA: No, maybe a bit more.  When you got up the next day, the 15th,  were you of the impression that these people are gone - that they have now been eliminated as you got up that morning?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: If I recall correctly, I was informed on that day that the operation had been carried out.