Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

MR DILIZO: I take Shosha, that she was more or less a person in the position of an informer, whose identity must not have been seen by the ANC that she had deflected to join the government as an Askari.  That is the reason behind my question?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: She had already testified in cases, before she came to Vlakplaas, so therefore I believe that the ANC already knew that she was no longer on their side.
	Most probably they didn't know that she was at Vlakplaas.  She was the first woman at Vlakplaas, but she wasn't the last.

MR DILIZO: Then with regard to Tshabalala?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I imagine that Tshabalala's photo appeared on a list, a photo list of eight or ten Askaris' faces which was generally distributed throughout the Republic of South Africa by the ANC.
	I think that Tshabalala was already known for working against the ANC somewhere in the system.

MR DILIZO: So, in this particular case, would you have expected Morse and Tshabalala to have fully introduced themselves to Dandala as well as with regard to their nature of operations?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, that presentation would have been undertaken at Barkly East, because all of those involved, that would be East London, Transkei and of course the Vlakplaas people, would have been introduced to one another at Barkly East and they would have been properly introduced, because they would be working together.
	They would be acting together and I wouldn't say that private information was shared among these individuals, but with regard to who was working for whom, and who belonged to what Unit, there would be utter clarity on that.

MR DILIZO: Perhaps the reason why I am asking that question, I imagine the situation where for instance in the Intelligence Service, a spy is sent to go and spy on B and while he is still busy spying on B, then D is being sent to spy on the one spying on B, which shows that there is no question of much confidence in each other, you treat each other with caution.  That is the reason why I am asking that question.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, it is a century old principle in counter-intelligence.  At Vlakplaas I appointed some of the Askaris to an extra salary from the Secret Fund, to ensure that I don't have to go and get 20 or 30 Askaris who were messing with weapons, because in other words I had Askaris who spied on other Askaris, yes counter-insurgence.

MR DILIZO: And one of the major purposes of your nature of working was that these activities should not come and back fire against the government, because it would reflect adversely to the government, even up to the international levels?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, it could reach international levels.  We have to look at organisations such as Amnesty International and several other organisations.

MR DILIZO: So, which means therefore that this idea of ensuring that the information does not back fire adversely against the government, could have for instance operated in the mind of Tshabalala that I mustn't introduce much to Dandala to such an extent that it can back fire against the authorities?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I would believe that with the individual members, there could be a small level of holding back some information to cover up his real background.  It is possible, but I am speculating.  It would depend on the person himself.

MR DILIZO: So, now according to the evidence of Tshabalala, when they returned to Barkly East, they were congratulated by a certain white man, most probably for the death of Batandwa.  So that gives me the impression that as I have asked that question in a different way, that the authorities would be satisfied with the mere outcome, for instance without considering the appropriateness of the actions of those who were involved like Dandala and Tshabalala?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The Askaris were congratulated many times, sometimes by the Minister, also for people that they arrested, or ANC members that they recruited.
	They were not congratulated because they killed the man.  The ANC members were either caught or he was recruited or he was killed, he was congratulated in many aspects.

MR DILIZO: But even if they had killed, they would generally be subsequently protected through the so-called cover up activities?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, to cover up and I refer to the Harms Commission, this came from such a high level that concerning me, this came from a Presidential level, it couldn't be any other way.

MR DILIZO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DILIZO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Dukada?

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Can I just start with the background of Vlakplaas.  As I understand, Vlakplaas was engaged mostly in covert actions, that is unlawful actions?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.  The primary objective although covert, it was legitimate.  This meant that your members are not known, they don't move in vehicles with blue lights, they don't wear uniforms and their modus operandi was unconventional.
	The second agenda, let's call it your illegal covert actions, would be internal actions like the bombing of COSATU House and Khotso House and cross border operations for example in Botswana and Swaziland.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Colonel.  Just for information Colonel, I have read your book on working for an apartheid State and other material pertaining to your involvement in various activities as a member of Vlakplaas.
	Now, the point I am saying is that at times you were involved in unlawful activities, like for instance abducting an ANC activist from one area to another, you would have to apply for a warrant of arrest and perform duties as if you were an ordinary policeman?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, there were two instances in Swaziland where we did not just kidnap a person, we broke out a person out of a Swazi prison.
	So, yes, that is illegal.

MR DUKADA: Right, and there was maximum co-operation between yourselves and the Transkeian Police when it comes to combating terrorism in Southern Africa?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I cannot testify to that.  I never liaised with any of the Generals or with any of the police members of the Transkei.
	I do know that Warrant Officer Dan Naude and Captain Willie de Lange, there is one or two members but I know those two specifically liaised very closely with the Transkeian Security Branch.
	The third person is Colonel Griebenouw.

MR DUKADA: Do I understand you Colonel, to be saying that you have no personal knowledge about any operations which were conducted between members of Vlakplaas and Transkeian Security Police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, I would have knowledge of this incident.  At one or two other incidents Vlakplaas members did indeed work in the Transkei area.
	I don't know of any arrest that took place there.  Vlakplaas also liaised with the Directorate of Covert Collection, and there Vlakplaas was partially involved with actions in Transkei, but that is for later applications, that will come.

MR DUKADA: Yes, but what I am asking you Colonel is apart from reports that should be constantly given to you, you have no personal knowledge of operations carried out by members of the Vlakplaas and Transkei Security Police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Not that I can recall now.  If my memory can be refreshed, I could probably confirm it, but I can't recall.

MR DUKADA: And even with the killing of Ndondo, you have no personal knowledge except assisting in falsifying documents about Tshabalala after the incident?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR DUKADA: As far as the planning, the decision to go and arrest and kill Ndondo, you have no personal knowledge, except reports which were made to you, subsequent to the killing?