Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairperson, we would like to show it if some of the members would like to see it first and then continue with their questions later.  I do not want to interrupt them.  We can show it now.  We will show it now, can it be set up?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman apart from what they have I would like to say that the video material regarding the Bree Street bomb and the car it is available on video if necessary.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry Mr Chair, I understood that we were also going to see the video material of the remnants of the Audi in order to establish whether, if I could place it on record that I would like to view the remnants.
	Mr Chair, may I reserve further questions until we have had an opportunity to see that video.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I indicated to the legal representatives that I had the material. We could have arranged and we still can arrange a private viewing for their benefit if they require to ask questions. I simply said it is available if necessary.  Yes, we can probably do it later on in the day.
COMMITTEE VIEWS VIDEO FOOTAGE

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, the video material that was showed to you now, we have got a transcription of it and we will have to make copies of it and submit it as to what the specific words were.

CHAIRPERSON: If you think it is necessary yes.

MR PRINSLOO: If it was clear enough to you then we do accept it.  Can I just clear this aspect up with the applicant?
	Mr Venter you saw this material on video, what is your comment concerning this?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, the action there was every day
or it occurred every day and in various other meetings it also happened like this: "Prepare yourself, find weapons, get ammunition the war is on its way".

CHAIRPERSON: The way I understood your evidence earlier on was one of the main reasons for this Volkstaat is that the country was taken away from the Afrikaner volk by the British etc, did I understand you correctly?

UNKNOWN: By the British, the then National Party.  It was struggle that we wanted to fight with the background of the AWB against these people because they basically signed our country away and took it away.

CHAIRPERSON: And in this Volkstaat would only Afrikaans speaking people be allowed there?

UNKNOWN: At that stage yes, that was my conclusion. They told us that it would be a purely white city or town.  We would have workers or labourers but it would have been a white state. I would not say only Afrikaans speaking people, there are English speaking people, there are Germans or Dutch people as well.  The conclusion I made it was for the people who identified themselves with us and who were on our side.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly, a child that is born between a German and Dutch person would be a pure Afrikaner?

UNKNOWN: For me, my personal view was that it will not be the Boer speaking person, there would be other languages, English or whatever.  Concerning the strives and goals of the Volkstaat, they would be involved in this struggle for the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please tell me what is an Afrikaner?

UNKNOWN: It is a Boer, not necessarily someone who plant mielies or tobacco. It is a white South African Boer who were born in this country, grew up here.

CHAIRPERSON: What is a Boer if he is not on a farm?

UNKNOWN: Our ancestors, all of them were basically farmers and in South Africa in the first few days the existence of the white race in South Africa, during that time when they formed Afrikaans in South Africa ninety percent of those people were farmers and the way South Africa developed people starting taking up other jobs but Boer comes from the South African Boer or farmer. That is my view Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I was told that I was born in South Africa, I see myself as a South African but I was told by my parents that my ancestors came from India and that they farmed in the sugar plantations in Natal, would they also be considered as a Boer?  ...[transcriber's own translation]

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, in order to prevent confusion, I am not a politician, I am not in the leader element who did the planning and who told you what to do and not to do, I feel today that I was a usable chess piece in the struggle and what their ideals were and differs from mine I do not know but my conclusion of this whole matter was that a Volkstaat would be for the white farmer.  If they had other view points and said that it was racist in saying that an Indian person or a Jewish person were not allowed there, they did not inform me about that and now to have a conversation with you which is not within my league, I cannot answer you.

CHAIRPERSON: You see why I asked this question was your view of this whole thing was or why did you become a member of the AWB and why did you take part in everything that you did?   That is why I asked the question.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, you make it difficult for me. The question was do I identify myself with the ideology of the AWB?  Yes, when I was an AWB member I do reject, I reject the ideology and the view points of the AWB and the right-wing.  Through that ideology they opened my eyes of their viewpoints or motivational points.   I thought yes, after the Defence Force and National Party government this is what we need, let us do it.  They motivated us to do it.  That motivational point, the using of us as pawns, their ideology now means nothing to me because they said with the conclusion that you can make that these people would assist us for God, fatherland and the nation so I cannot follow their ideology. I reject it completely. So now that my view point has changed, I cannot now talk about it because I cannot place myself in that situation again.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the important point is that you apply for amnesty on the basis of what you thought at that stage and that is why I ask it.

UNKNOWN: That is correct yes, it was my ideology. I followed them through thick and thin for what they promised us.  After all these things I realised it was not my struggle or strives.  At that stage yes, I agreed with them and I fought in a war, in a struggle against ANC, the National Party, SACP, for a Volkstaat and under that motivation I did it as a freedom fighter but today I can tell you that I reject it.  I was there, I am not there any more.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Venter, how old were you when you joined the AWB?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, I am not very good at dates but I was still in the Defence Force in the mid eighties, 1984, 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: How old were you then approximately?  Was it just after school, you must certainly know.

UNKNOWN: No, I was 16 when I left school and I then went to the Defence Force. It was the beginning of the eighties so I would say 21, 22.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you
Chairperson.  As I indicated earlier on my biggest interest is the Germiston bombings so I would limit my cross-examination to that.  
	Mr Venter let us talk straight, you said that you were a usable pawn?

UNKNOWN: That is correct yes.

MR PRINSLOO: With respect Mr Chairperson, I think my learned friend, although he has got no interest in the other bombs, on what basis are these questions then put to him?  Can he just indicate that to us please?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: In order to find out the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue please.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When you left the Defence Force you were ready for war, is that correct, or were tired of war?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I was tired.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The time when you did border service did you ever see a communist or did you ever catch a communist?

UNKNOWN: Is this relevant to my application?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You mentioned that you went to Angola?