Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

MR MALAN: Mr Venter, I cannot think that you were completely uninvolved in this, you either had to feel positive or negative about it if you saw this.  In other words it is either at least on the way of reaching your goal or it was a negative feeling or awareness that was left with you.  Now the question to you was did you support it, were you satisfied with that.  You said that you wrote it in here, it was executed according to the planning, do you not feel positive about it?

UNKNOWN: I was positively motivated yes.

MR MALAN: But the question that was put to you what was your reaction?

UNKNOWN: I would just like to move away from the word success which this person used.  I did not feel excited or feel really good about it and jumped up and shouted yes.  Positive, I would say that we reached our objective.  In the whole set-up I was motivated for the goal or I would say that we did obtain or reach our goals.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	And Sir tell me as a trained soldier looking back, would you say that you have killed innocent civilians by your conduct?

UNKNOWN: In this situation of the pre-election bombing?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he conceded that.

UNKNOWN: Just to come back to your question yes.

MR MOTLAUNG: And at the time that you went about your deeds, did you realise that in the process you will kill innocent civilians?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir but my motivation was for Volkstaat, for this determination of the Boer and the Afrikaner.  I did it in that manner.  Now I can say we killed innocent people.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes.  Just as a parting shot, you see why I am saying these things is that I will be inclined to argue maybe later that maybe you had a just war to fight the way you perceived it, but looking at it the way you went about it that you didn't have a target, you chose innocent civilians.

UNKNOWN: No, Sir I do not agree there.

MR MOTLAUNG: Okay thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman there is not much left for me but there is one or two points that I may, thank you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Venter reference was made to Exhibit F, that was a statement attributed to Mr Eugene Terreblanche on the 8th of February 1994, where he said inter alia that the bombs that had gone off in the Western Transvaal and the Free State, he said that this would increase if the Afrikaners never obtained their Volkstaat.  My question is were you aware of that speech or that report, that is before you went up to the "wildsplaas"?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir, I was aware of this and I was also aware of the bombs that went off before the free election.

MR PRIOR: So when you heard on the Sunday that the 24th on the news that the Bree Street bomb had gone off you weren't surprised that this bomb had in fact gone off. This was now the start of something because the bombings had been around for some time.

UNKNOWN: Ja. It was going on for a while.

MR PRIOR: Another thing that strikes my eye when I went through the bundle is that there was a substantial amount of weaponry seized by the police from the "skietbaan."
	That appears at page 19 and 20 of bundle 2, that is volume 2 Mr Chairman. 
	I noticed there were 16 machine guns or automatic weapons. Mainly R1's, R4's and R5's.

UNKNOWN: That is correct ja.

MR PRIOR: Something like 30 000 plus rounds of ammunition of various calibre, there were about 11 unlicensed weapons and 40 licensed weapons amidst the whole host of explosives. Were you aware of that type of weaponry available at the "wildsplaas"?

UNKNOWN: Yes Sir, it was told that we must steal otherwise get otherwise bring, but we brought it. I knew that there was a lot of people with R1's and R4's and R5's and ammo and that.

MR PRIOR: The point of my question is at the "wildsplaas," this camp that we have heard of, Mr Fourie said the camp was set up more or less along the lines of a conventional army camp operating in a war type situation, was there a central place where weapons were stored and ammunition was stored?

UNKNOWN: No, Sir.

MR PRIOR: So where was the - I beg your pardon, this was found at the shooting range, but in the camp itself where was the explosives held or where was the thousands of rounds of ammunition, where was that kept?

UNKNOWN: Okay the explosives I wouldn't know where it was kept but I know for a fact that each and every individual person there carried their arms and ammunition with them, if not in a kit bag in the car or wherever but these people had their own little arsenal of rounds of ammunition.

MR PRIOR: My next question, was there an expectation that weapons, conventional weapons like machine guns, etc., would have to be used over that period?  Was that told to you, that there may be an attack or there may not be an attack or why there was a necessity for such a large amount of weaponry?

UNKNOWN: You see the idea that I formed around this whole this whole situation is for us to protect ourselves as an individual, as Ystergarde Captain or whatever the rank may be, is to bring your own firearms and as many rounds as possible to protect yourself and if needed, because the whole idea was going out to the farms and protect them, to have enough arms and ammunition to be able to do this for the Volkstaat when the "oorlog" would have come and we had to protect the borders of that.  So yes, I think that was, in the back of your mind you prepared yourself for this type of war.

MR PRIOR: Let me get closer to what I am actually driving at, were you ever instructed or informed that you would have to attack for example a military type installation for example the military if they never supported you or the police if they were against you or for example the ANC if they were going to take up weapons to stop what you were doing up in the Western Transvaal?

UNKNOWN: It was said we will get our Volkstaat over the barrel of a gun.

MR PRIOR: Who said that?

UNKNOWN: Eugene Terreblanche.

MR PRIOR: But wasn't that just political rhetoric, hot air?

UNKNOWN: Hot air if you see it that way but for me every time he spoke, every time he got to the act of: we had to do this, that was all a growing stage for this "oorlog" he was planning.

MR PRIOR: Did you ever question what Eugene Terreblanche was saying at meetings?

UNKNOWN: To whom am I going to put that question, to him?

MR PRIOR: Well were you not - was it not a democratic type organisation?

UNKNOWN: No, Sir, you don't ask that man any questions.

MR PRIOR: Well I needed to ask you.  You indicated that after the Bree Street bomb and certainly after the Germiston bomb and the pipe bombs, there were 4 or so Generals at the "wildsplaas" and/or "skietbaan."

UNKNOWN: Before and after yes.

MR PRIOR: I need to know from you did any of those Generals at any stage say anything about the bombs, whether they agreed with that or it was to continue or not to continue?

UNKNOWN: If they had anything to say about it negatively, if they had to say: "Hey, why did you do it"?, I think he would have shouted it out and shot us or kicked us in or something, but they walked around satisfied with smiles on their faces.  They didn't say: "Hey gents that what you have done is wrong", never not once so they knew what was going on.

MR PRIOR: That was from their silence that you are drawing that assumption?

UNKNOWN: No, they went about normally. So he walks up to you, you meet him or you greet him say: "Morning or afternoon or evening General".  They didn't say: "Hey, you people just made big ...(indistinct) in this country", they were happy with it.

MR PRIOR: What I need to know was there ever a order group or a meeting where the Generals, those who you have mentioned: Terreblanche, Prinsloo, Cruywagen, etc., called the men there together and said: "Listen what has been happening here is not our policy or it is our policy"?

UNKNOWN: They never came back and said this that what happened wasn't our policy, they never said that.