Special Hearings — Political Party — 1998-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  It does look as though it's right on 11 o'clock and it may be a good moment to break at this stage.  If that's acceptable to the delegation we will adjourn and then try and be back by twenty past eleven, thank you.  ...[inaudible] that tea for the delegation will be made available, tea or coffee.  Regrettably we don't have a cafeteria for everyone else.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We resume the hearing with a delegation from the former United Democratic Front and I'm going to ask Mr Mpshe to lead us please.  Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair and members of the panel and our leaders herein present.  Mr Chair, I want to kick off by saying that we appreciate the response, the manner in which most of the questions have been answered.  When we put questions to the delegation it is not because we doubt or we do not accept the answers given to the questions but we are simply continuing in the debate so as to get clarity on some of the issues.
 I have indicated in chambers Mr Chair and the panel, that the questions that will ensue from our side will be based on the submissions as read onto the record today.  So I want the delegation to understand our questions in that light, that the simple assignment is to find clarity.  I will kick off Mr Chairman, starting from page 8 as this is the portion that was dealt with by the comrade.
 We agree Mr Chairman, that the UDF then had a problem or rather to call it a disciplinary problem due lack of capacity.  They could not, because of certain factors mentioned in their submission, discipline the members as well as the supporters of the UDF.  But I have three questions to pose in this regard and the questions are:
 Was this incapacity of UDF to exercise adequate control, a matter of concern to the UDF?  
 The next question will be - I don't know Mr Chairman, if the delegation would want me to elaborate on the questions or just to put the questions as they are and they will response to them?  Some of them are self explanatory with the minds of the delegation, that is I do believe they do understand what I am talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molefe?

POPO MOLEFE: Chairperson, we would suggest that Advocate Mpshe proceed with his questions, where we do not understand the questions we will give an indication.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Perhaps it may be easier too if you took clusters of questions and once you've dealt with a particular subject we could pause and then we could listen to the replies and take them further if necessary.  Is that agreeable?  Right, please proceed Mr Mpshe.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair.
 The next question then would be:
 What active steps were taken to remedy the situation?
And here I want to refer the delegation to page 9 as well as page 10 of the submission.  At page 9 I'm referring t paragraph 2 of the submission and page 10 I'm referring to the very last paragraph: 
"before attacks on perceived informers"
that very last paragraph and the last sentence.  
 And the last question on this cluster Mr Chair will be:
 Was the popular forms of undisciplined activists which contributed to making the country ungovernable at least tolerated by the UDF?  If not tolerated, was it not encouraged?  In other words, this move of making the government ungovernable, was it tolerated by the UDF or if not tolerated, was it encouraged to continue?
 Then in the same breath:
 Would the apartheid government have surrendered power without: "the undisciplined mass mobilisation"?

POPO MOLEFE: May I request that the last question be repeated and clarified as it is not quite clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, in clarifying it, there was this move of the movement or organisation, that the government should be made intolerable or ungovernable and in making it ungovernable, mass movements or mass actions had to take place and in the midst of these mass actions some of the acts that were regarded as being perpetrated by the undisciplined members would inevitably take place.  Now my question here is
 Did the UDF tolerate this mobilisation?

POPO MOLEFE: The question is still not clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall I try to ...[intervention]

POPO MOLEFE: Is it proposed that the UDF set out deliberately to organise undisciplined mass action?  We don't quite understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just try?  I think ...[intervention]

POPO MOLEFE: In that we are being asked to say whether we tolerated or not.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is really on whether the UDF did not want this to happen but insofar as it did happen, tolerated the excesses not the actual policies or the strategies but the excesses because of the end goal?  And that was to change and transform government.  I think that's more or less what ...

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the intention of the question.

CHAIRPERSON: With those questions - you had a last part to the question which related - or is that sufficient?

UNKNOWN: That is sufficient for now Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you care to respond to those now, it may be easier I think.  And if so, who would like to do that?

POPO MOLEFE: Well I'd like to request that Mr Valli Moosa deals with the question relating to making the country ungovernable.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he deliberately responsible?
 Mr Moosa, would you like to attempt that?

POPO MOLEFE: And the rest of the questions be dealt between him and Mr Morobe.