Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

MR LAX: Yes.  You see all your information is focused on the Kewtown Youth, it is not focused on what other organisations may have been using the hall that night.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct, yes.

MR LAX: Now surely if you wanted to prevent other people being injured, you would have said to whoever went to do the intelligence for you, "go and find out who has booked the hall that night, which other organisations", to make sure that there was nobody else there?  You see, everything you have said so far, is not that that is what you did.  Everything you have said so far is you wanted to make sure about the Kewtown Youth and then "sommer" by the way, you find out about the karate club?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.  Our information was that the Kewtown Youth Movement would use the hall and then Gakkie also reported to us that that specific evening there would be a karate club or representatives of a karate club would be there, so that is the only information that we had, that only those two parties or organisations would use that specific hall that evening.  I had no other information.
	I mean it is logical, if I had other information, then I would have made further, taken further measures to ensure that no one would be killed or injured.  Because if my action was aimed at the Kewtown Youth Movement, it is irresponsible to act against people of a soccer club that had nothing to do with the Kewtown Youth Movement.

MR LAX: You see the other thing that concerns me, is your whole focus was on the hall, not on the other rooms in that building.  That building had a couple of other rooms in as well, that people used for meetings, it had other facilities besides the hall.
	Your whole focus was just the hall, not the rest of the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR LAX: So you don't know whether there were other people who were due to use other parts of that building that night, that could equally have been injured if the bomb went off?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: According to my information ...

MR LAX: Never mind your information, the fact is you don't know, you didn't bother to find out because all you were focusing on was the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, but  I sent Gakkie in to make sure that the situation was in order, so that we could activate the mine at a later stage.
	If he then reported to me that "listen, there is a problem here, people have arrived here of a soccer club, then I can give you the certainty that I would not have activated the bomb, because that was not the purpose of the bomb to injure anyone.

MR LAX: You see, I hear you, but if you said to Gakkie "go and find out who is using the hall", he would have gone and found out who was using the hall.  If you said to him "go and find out who is using the centre", he might have asked a whole lot of more questions.  Do you see the problem?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I hear your argument.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, it is correct then that on your version, you and Mr Botha are sitting in a car, with a known gangster in the middle of the State of Emergency, in close proximity to the Athlone police station, for an hour and a half, from half past seven to nine o'clock?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, just to carry on with the, what the bomb expert has to say, can you just read what page ...

CHAIRPERSON: Where you were when you were distracted by myself, going to refer to Bundle A, page 13, I think it was, 12.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but then I realised that I, I also got distracted in the middle of the bomb expert's report.

CHAIRPERSON: So we are back by Bundle ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: Sorry about that.

CHAIRPERSON: We are back with Bundle B, page 246?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, would you just read please, paragraphs 6, 7 and 8 into the record.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Paragraph 6
"... at that stage it was determined that the whole construction was damaged so badly that it was dangerous to commence with an investigation at the scene at that stage.  The scene was then secured and after Warrant Officer de Kock of "PVK" took several photos, the scene was sealed for further investigation which would continue on the 1-9-1989.  It was also determined that a third injured person had reported to Groote Schuur hospital for medical assistance, but departed later."
	Do you want me to continue?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Please.
MR VAN ZYL
"... At  1989-09-01, at 07H30 the investigation was continued and the following damages were observed:  the side walls on the southern side and the eastern side of the hall were damaged and was forced to the outside, which has caused the walls to stand out in a ...

MR LAX: Sorry, can you just read a little bit slowly, the Interpreter is battling to keep up with you, because that is what gets put on the record.    If you will just go a little bit slower, thank you.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Must I repeat what I have just read?

MR LAX: Just read 8.2 again, please.
MR VAN ZYL
"... On the  western side there was a hole of 2.8 metres x 1 metre, which was caused by the detonation where the explosive device was placed.  The roof, corrugated iron, were removed and was torn.  In the corner on the eastern side, a fire had ensued and damage was done.  Within the hall, various tables and chairs were destroyed.  The ceiling was also pulled out.  83 windows in the hall and other rooms, were damaged.  15 Glass door panels were also damaged, to the value of approximately R120 000-00.  The hall was damaged to such an extent that the construction had to be rebuilt."

MR KAHANOVITZ: Thank you.  You assume don't dispute any of that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, let's then go to your statement at page 113 of Bundle A.
I want to, I will read you various portions of that long paragraph and then ask you to comment.  You say  that -"... Isgak pointed out the area around the hall to us, as well as the parking area where the members of the organisation were parked.  We parked approximately 400 metres from the hall and it was already dark."
	What was dark?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The vicinity, the sun had already gone down.
MR KAHANOVITZ
"... I sent Isgak into the hall to make sure that the children were no longer in the hall, because that evening there was a karate class for children.  He also had to determine which members of the movement attended the meeting."
	Now, if the object was to damage the building, why would you be in the least bit interested to know which members of Kewtown Youth were attending that particular meeting?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We wanted to make sure that the persons that he identified to us, who were in the hall, had indeed left the hall at a later stage, because he pointed out the vehicles to us.  So it was only a measure, so that I could determine or confirm that the persons in the hall had left the hall at some stage.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you could draw up this checklist of names and then as they came out later, you could tick them off just to make sure that they weren't harmed or injured?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Something similar, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh, I see.
"... He returned after half an hour and reported that there were no children in the hall and mentioned that all the management members of the movement, were present in the hall.  We drove to a street, where we had a good view of the parking area and the hall."
	Now, you say you had a good view of the parking lot?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: Can I just correct something here.  This refers to parking lots in the plural, not in the singular.  What other parking lot could you see from where you were?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: None.  I only saw one parking area.

MR LAX: Why does it refer to parking lots?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Probably a typing error.

MR LAX: Parking grounds?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It must be a typing mistake.

MR LAX: Well, you see, there are more than one parking area at that building, what we saw from the plan?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I testify about the one specific parking lot, Chairperson.