Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-14

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, that was like that.  Let me just explain a bit.  The way violence was, we could actually sense it.  Boy Majola had a friend who were with him here at IFP, we used him, Bamba, and we said, "Bamba, just get hold of Maginxa".
	Indeed Bamba, how they met with Maginxa, but they met, and then he actually arranged for us to meet this Maginxa.  So then, to indicate that now we want to put our weapons down at Mpumalanga, and then, at Mushware, when we were approaching, myself and Sikumlaba, Maginxa stood up, he's an uncle to me, and then went to me and said, "Listen, have you come here to finish here now?", and then I said, "No, uncle, no, uncle", "Oh yes, kill me now, shoot me, kill me, it's fine if it's you who's shooting me", and then I said, "No, uncle, I came here so that we can talk, negotiate".  "You came here to talk with me by myself, just alone, and say Bamba, why didn't you tell me you were actually calling these people?", and then we tried to calm him, and then he listened to us, and then he realised that we were actually telling the truth.  That's how we actually contacted each other.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Lethuli, you have heard there being a reference to an incident at the first stop bus(?) where people were shot, you might know about it, you might not know about it, do you know anything about this thing?   I believe it's a prominent incident, although my instructions are not clear on the date of this incident.   Do you know of this incident at all?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: ...(no English translation)

MR NGUBANE: The first stop, it's an area just next door, I believe, the stop next door, do you know anything about it?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: I don't know.

MR NGUBANE: You don't know anything about it?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Now, the motor vehicle known as tomato vehicle, do you know anything about it?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: This tomato, it was Sikumlaba's car.  This car, it was driven by well known boys, IFP boys.  In this car, they were using it, operating, whenever they were attacking areas with, or Comrade areas.  They would do anything on their way, shooting, because in that car they used to just shoot, it was just a well known car, a notorious car that when it appears, a person dies, it was very notorious, but the drivers, the Comrades knew the drivers and the people who were driving that car.

MR NGUBANE: Now, is it correct that there were many incidents that occurred here, some of them which you can't recall without being reminded about them?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, that is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Are you prepared to meet the community on a one to one basis, and if they remind you about those incidents, you are prepared to elaborate on them?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, it's the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Well, as you stand there, do you have a word for the community, you have said something very gruesome, you have narrated incidents, do you have anything to say to the community?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: What I can say to the Mpumalanga community, I'm happy that I'm here in front of them, and they've heard me talking in different areas, but I never got a chance of facing them directly.  I grew up in front of them.  Most of them, if I can say they should stand up that I'm related to, who are my relatives, who are my friends, almost the entire house can stand up.
	There are those that I grew up with, who know me since, from school days, I never fought at school, when I was still a scholar, I never fought, I was just (indistinct - Zulu), as the name suggests.  Even now, I still follow my name, I'm still (indistinct - Zulu).   Peace, it's within me, it's in my blood.  The things that I did at Mpumalanga, there are bad things and there are good things.  All the bad things that I did, I did them as an IFP member, all what I did.  Therefore, I regret about the things that I did to the Mpumalanga community.   
	Also, I plead with them for them to allow me to come back and be amongst them.   Therefore, I will be given a chance to talk to them, to be myself, therefore I'm prepared to do whatever is there, whatever is available.  The peace that I'm referring to, it's now on the third, it's about three times that I was almost killed, not by Mpumalanga people, but people that I was working for, IFP, three times, not that I was killed because, they're killing me because I say the killing of people must stop.   
	Even now the person who used to be with Comrade (Indistinct), that is Sikumlaba, is nothing today because of the peace at Mpumalanga, because the IFP leaders don't want this peace.  I'm not talking a hearsay, it's not a hearsay, they do not want, our top leaders, top IFP leaders don't want peace.  
	Myself, I myself, I had nothing to lose if I just stayed just like everybody else and just be quiet, and then they are saying but come to the amnesty, I had nothing to lose, how could I just stay behind, just like everybody else who are living a better life than mine?  	 But now I manage that in whatever luxury that I have, and then I said those kids, those children that you see there and the others, as you have heard that there are letters that are being written that they shouldn't say anything, "Because IFP didn't do anything, they do good things, it is only the thugs who are doing that, we IFP leaders don't know anything", and it's nothing, nothing at all that they were prepared to do in order to build a new South Africa, nothing positive.   We actually agree with Sikumlaba and he would say that they are always saying that whenever you are always ahead of them, because they always come after you.  
	I did talk about this amnesty thing when I was still talking just to be under the TEC, and then it was said I must be killed because I said we should go to TEC.   This TEC, I was actually trying that this win of IFP, all other organisations say that they should actually be revealed, they are still hiding, even today, they are still hiding it, and then I said to all these boys that you see that I won't leave them, I will just call them and be with them, because I sacrificed all the luxury that I had, even still today I will still be in that luxury, but I decided to get these boys.   
	You've heard on the radios shouting that everybody who know that (Indistinct) Lethuli did this or said it must just come up-front, because this is the time of reconciliation, this is the time of building our new South Africa.  Indeed these are the boys.  Others, they received such letters.  However, they can go behind and say apply.  How?  How are they going to apply?  They are just wasting their time.  I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Please be calm for Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Mr Lethuli, thank you very much for what you have said.  There is just one point which has just come to my attention.  There is an area in Howick called Mpophomemi... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you repeat the name of that area please, Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: It's Howick, in Zulu it's Mpophomemi, MPOPHOMEMI, did you participate in the attacks in that area?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: No, that is not correct, but one Caprivian was there, Willem Xhono, he was investigated about that crime and M Z Khumalo and myself hid him until the matter died down.  The UDF at Mpophomemi was still pursuing the case, but because of the assistance from the police, we managed to hide him.  He died later.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know what he was wanted for, was it murder or what?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, murder, I think he killed some union members, members of Cosatu.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ngubane.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, if there's any, do you have any?

MR WILLS: I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?