Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Chairperson, I think it would actually - this is a Commission - a public hearing or setting, we can't interact to discuss this issue because I think it would actually be interesting to know what rigorous steps, the intervention, etc., - this word has been referred to a number of times, because we are saying we did the ultimate at that particular moment short of us organising as a particular ...[indistinct] and break into a house etc.,
 So, what we are saying is, at that particular moment we did what needed to be done and tried our best and indeed within the possibilities and indeed we did at the end have all those children except Stompie.  But as evidence shows, by the time we came to the scene there wasn't any possibility that we could have saved Stompie's life.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Mr Chair.
 Reverend Frank Chikane, there is a matter you might assist us with, you recall it on page 11 of your submission on paragraph 40 and you also refer to Annexure D.  And I think the crisp question that I need to ask in connection therewith is the following - we know now - and it has nothing to do with ...[indistinct] but we now know on an objective assessment of all the evidence, that Katiza Cebekhulu was found in a Zambian jail.  
 And your own part was to arrange for him - on an analysis of what you considered his state of mind and health, for him to be placed in a Johannesburg hospital.  Now, I do not know if you are able to assist us but I didn't want to leave it unasked.  If any of you or you in particular, is able to tell us how he then landed in the Zambian jail away from the Johannesburg hospital where you had arranged for him to be placed at - that's the question.
 The second question to Minister Mufamadi and then I will shut up - I'm asking this question to you Mr Minister in your capacity now.  We know that Cebekhulu left or did not appear at his trial at which he was charged or was going to be a witness or I do not know right away, but he did not appear at his trial.  
 As a consequence thereof a warrant for his arrest was issued - a warrant which was still active as at the time that we began these proceedings and we had to get the intervention of the Minister of Justice for that warrant to be lifted for him to be able to be here.  Now, to the extent that one can rely on anything that he said, a person here who called himself Jabu Sithole, came here and told us that - though he didn't say so, like Cebekhulu he jumped bail whilst he was facing serious charges. 
 On his word for political reasons he found himself abroad, he came back, he is gainfully employed in protection services at one of our airports.  The police know that he is here and from all indications, there has not been any warrant of arrest and therefore there hasn't been any need for any warrant for his arrest to be lifted in the manner in which Cebekhulu's case there has been that need.
 As a member of Government and as one who heads Safety and Security, I would like to hear your comments in regard thereto.

FRANK CHIKANE: Chairperson, I arranged to receive Cebekhulu in Braamfontein, took him to the hospital myself and when I arrived at the hospital the police arrived as well because they were either looking for him for other things or they had heard he had disappeared and is missing.
 So when we announced I've got him the police also came and so I only negotiated with the police that they must not interfere with ...[end of tape]  chose to leave the hospital himself and I didn't know what happened thereafter because it wasn't in my hands then.  And then of course there was a trial and then he jumped - so I don't know, I don't have first hand information about all the details.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Sir, with regard to the questions that you've asked, I am informed that members of the South African Police service - the detective branch who were responsible for investigating some of the cases including the case that we have referred to involving Katiza Cebekhulu and Jabu Sithole, will be appearing before this Commission later today - they are probably here already.
 I need to say this, I have heard a lot about Katiza - read about him, I've met him but I don't remember meeting Jabu Sithole, so some of the things that you find puzzling, I found them puzzling too when I was listening here yesterday to Jabu Sithole and his responses to your questions.
 I am hoping that after the police have appeared before you, we will all understand what exactly happened and what exactly is happening but at the end of the day this Commission will have - in my view, to recommend the next course of action and I want - speaking in my capacity, present capacity because that is the capacity in which you asked me the question, to assure the Commission that the Department of Safety and Security will co-operate with the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Hanif?

MR VALLY: Just a few minor final questions.  Firstly Reverend Chikane and maybe all the gentlemen and Sister Bernard, before the 28th or 29th of December 1988, after the Mandela Crisis Committee had it's genesis after the Daliwonga incident when you people visited Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house, did you ever see Katiza Cebekhulu there - any of you?

FRANK CHIKANE: You say before?

MR VALLY: Before the 28th of December 1988.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: We've no recollection.

FRANK CHIKANE: I didn't know Cebekhulu until that day when we went to that house, so I had no idea.

MR VALLY: Reverend Chikane, when you handed over Mr Cebekhulu to the police, did he indicate to you he was willing to make a statement to the police?

FRANK CHIKANE: Well, I didn't hand him over to the police, in fact I was resisting that.  The interesting thing was that one of senior policemen who came there leading the team was the one who tortured me at John Vorster, so there was no way I could myself say: "Hand over".   I said to them that I have no way in which I can stop them and I can't obstruct them because they would arrest me for obstructing the course of justice.
  I only negotiated that they must not interfere with the treatment of the young man and whatever they wanted to do, the priority was that he be treated and that's all that I said.  Katiza himself was not prepared to talk to them.

MR VALLY: Did Katiza talk to you and tell you what had happened in the household of Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

FRANK CHIKANE: No, because he was handed over to me and he was in a state of mind that I think he needed medical attention and I sent him to - that's why I didn't want the police to question him and so I couldn't question a person in that condition.

MR VALLY: Do any of you know the circumstances in which Katiza Cebekhulu left the country and ended up in a prison in Zambia?

FRANK CHIKANE: I have no idea.

MR VALLY: That goes for all of you?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: That goes for me too.

UNKNOWN: Submission 3.

FRANK CHIKANE: It's referred to in paragraph 3 Chairperson, that we are not able to account for that.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: ..[indistinct] except that I just saw an article in the Sunday Times and he was standing in front of the Supreme Court saying: "The police are looking for me, here I am, why can't they find me" and then he disappeared.

MR VALLY: One final question, are any of you aware that on the 28th of January 1989, after the football club was supposed to be disbanded, they appeared at Doctor Asvat funeral in Lenasia in their track suits - a number of young men, accompanied by Mrs Madikizela Mandela in the coaster bus they usually used and driven the usual driver Mr John Morgan.  Are any of you aware of that?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I remember reading that in one of the Johannesburg newspapers but I can't recall which paper.

UNKNOWN: I attended the funeral - yes, it's true they were there.