Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

ADV MEMANI: If you assaulted, if you were present at Botshabelo and you assaulted people, then what you stated would not be entirely correct, isn't it?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so, because those whom we were talking about are those who were assaulted outside.  Those I am talking about are those who were assaulted inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that you have not applied for amnesty in respect of these people whom you assaulted inside Botshabelo?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, I will put it later.

ADV MEMANI: Now was there any occasion when you only picked up people from Botshabelo police station and took them to Bloemfontein?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is in some instances, many instances.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you were also asked about earlier and you said that in that respect, Ngo isn't correct or you said he is lying.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now, why do you say he is lying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There are some issues of torture and assault which I took part in many years.  Some of them I don't remember them well.  That is why I said he is lying.  I was not present there.
	It may happen that I was present.  I believe that.  Anytime I remember about all these acts, some of them would resurface to my mind, I would put my application for amnesty.  It may be possible that I was present in that one, maybe I forgot.  I will try to remind myself.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions.

ADV MEMANI: .

CHAIRPERSON: So rather than say I can't remember if I was there, you have told us I was not there, Ngo is lying.  Is that the position?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was involved in many events, meaning I would say in the whole of the Free State.  I would include Hertzogville and other places.  Some of these acts are resurfacing in my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Including where did you say in the whole of the Free State, including ...

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is Hertzogville, Philippolis, Dewetsdorp, Boshoff and others I would remember as time goes on.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these ones that you have just mentioned Hertzogville, Philippolis, Dewetsdorp, Boshoff, what sort of acts were you involved in there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There were comrades we used to go and fetch, or at times we would find them in the cells, in those places.  Then we would torture them, which includes assault.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would you torture them?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In many cases in the cells.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you telling us now that there are in many cases where you assaulted and tortured comrades in the veld?

ADV DE JAGER: Cells.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought he said veld.  In the cells?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: All over the Free State?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Every time I would remember them, I would make an application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you have mentioned five places here so far and we have no application for amnesty from you in respect of these.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are now saying, are you, that you went to these places and tortured or assaulted comrades, probably in the cells?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you serious in what you are saying that there are many assaults and tortures in different places in the Free State that you have not mentioned up to now and are not in your amnesty applications?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You have a lawyer acting for  you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told that you had to make a full disclosure of all the relevant facts?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have chosen not to tell us about these other incidents?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, it is not like that.  Those are the things which I remembered.  It is not that I made a decision that I am not coming to tell you about them.

CHAIRPERSON: But here you have remembered these, you have told us where they happened, you have told us what you did there.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Those are the places I am able to mention that we were, at those places which I went.  Usually slowly but surely I would ask my Counsel that we should take time and then remind myself and then I would tell him.

CHAIRPERSON: But you've had a great deal of time Mr Motsamai.  You've made two different applications.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact I think, and I can't put my hands on the papers at the moment, that very shortly after the meeting in Pretoria that we've been told about, you communicated with the Committee again.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You mean after we left where?

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting where you filled in this affidavit with Mr Wagner, a few days later you were getting in touch with the TRC, weren't you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.  Even Pilato is the person whom I contacted him, he would explain that I told him that there are many acts which I remember, I would keep on telling him.
	Whilst he was going with me in the townships, I remembered one incident which happened (indistinct) Mr Stander.  He knows about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions arising from what he has just said?

MR VISSER: I think you've listened for long enough to my voice Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, are you going to lead any further evidence in support of these applications?

ADV MEMANI: No further evidence, My Lord.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you relieved because no further evidence will be led, or why are you clapping hands?

CHAIRPERSON: Now, there is the question of what we are going to do next?  Has anybody got anything that will take the next half an hour or so, Mr Brink, do you wish to lead any evidence?

MR BRINK: No, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand from what Mr Du Plessis told us, that he hopes that by two o'clock he will be in a position to tell us whether his witnesses are here, whether he can lead evidence and it seems to me that we should rather adjourn until then than start any other witness in the present time.	Do Counsel have any remarks to make in that regard?

MR VISSER: It doesn't seem as if we can avoid that Mr Chairman.
 It is a terrible thing, but we will have to do nothing for a while.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until two o'clock.  I will suggest Mr Stander that if Mr Du Plessis is not ready, we may call upon you and we might use some of this time to speak to some of your victims who are here to prepare them for the ordeal.

MR STANDER: I will do it sir, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: ... apparently in Pretoria this time, and Mr Du Plessis' potential witness who is bringing these documents, apparently only left there at twelve o'clock, so he will not be available to give evidence here this afternoon, it will be, we hope, at nine o'clock tomorrow morning.  We will proceed without him at the moment.