Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

MR VISSER: As well as Joseph, Chairperson, the way I read it.  The children.  She spoke to, unfortunately I don't know what the name is of the person, but if you turn to page 25 you will see, the second last paragraph
"MS SEROTHE:   Thank you Mrs Pahle for that very sad account ..."
...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Page what, did you say?

MR VISSER: Page 25
"...of what happened to George and Lindi and Joseph."
And then ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: But Chairperson, at the top of 26, the question is
"Just to add, if there is anything to add about Lindi?"
Then Mrs Malaza talks.

MR VISSER: Yes and then she goes on Chairperson to the bottom of page 26 and as I read it, she says
"They were killed because they were members of the ANC."
Now you must bear in mind that they were all in the same house at the time, according to the evidence, so it could only have referred to them as children and it was on that basis that the question was put and I'm simply asking her this, whether she thinks that that refers to Joseph, yea or nay?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, how can this witness answer as to what another witness meant in evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser,  by the nature of this attack, the intended targets were members or people who were normally resident in Botswana.  I think it's common cause that Joseph was not an ordinary resident of Botswana, is that not so?

MR VISSER: I concede that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was killed in that, or during that attack.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Does his membership of the ANC, while he was in South Africa, matter?

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson it would, in my submission, because that would matter as far as his classification as an innocent bystander, or a member of that political organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you concede that given the targets of that attack, whether Joseph was a member of the ANC or not is irrelevant?

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, not because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Because the purpose of that attack was not to go attack members of the ANC who were resident in South Africa, is that not so?

MR VISSER: No certainly not, from that point of view, I accept that, Chairperson.  Is your point that my questions are going nowhere?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR VISSER: Thank you, then I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Malaza, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the next witness ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  The next witness is Ms Felicity Anderson.  Her statement is at pages 6 and 7 of Exhibit D.

FELICITY ANDERSON: (sworn states)

MR BERGER: Ms Anderson, your statement is at pages 6 and 7 of Exhibit D.  You have your statement before you, is that correct?

MS ANDERSON: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that that is your statement and that the contents of the statement are true and correct?

MS ANDERSON: I do.

MR BERGER: Ms Anderson, you are also know as Muff, is that correct?

MS ANDERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Can you tell the Committee where you are presently employed?

MS ANDERSON: I'm presently employed in the City Manager's office in Johannesburg Council.  I'm an Executive Officer of Communications.

MR BERGER: Now at the time, or let's go back prior to the raid.  When did you arrive in Botswana?

MS ANDERSON: In October 1981.

MR BERGER: And you remained in Botswana, or resident in Botswana from that time until you were told to leave, is that correct?

MS ANDERSON: With the exception of excursions out of Botswana for military training and some political work outside, I was resident yes.

MR BERGER: And when were you told to leave Botswana?

MS ANDERSON: A week after the Botswana raid, when the house in which the Mike Hamlyn was killed, was attacked.  The Botswana Government came to visit me and said they suspected that I was actually the target of the attack, they could not protect me, and they gave me 24 hours notice to leave Botswana.  I was later put on a list, I was listed in the Government Gazette and made a prohibited immigrant.

MR BERGER: That was in Botswana?

MS ANDERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Ms Anderson, let's go back to the period from 81 through to 85.  Can you tell the Committee what life was like in Gaberone?  The culture of the exile community, the South African exile community in Gaberone?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I would be interested to know how that is relevant to the present hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: I was just wondering that myself.  What's you answer to that Mr ...?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I think I submitted its important to know, to have an understanding of what this raid actually did.  What this raid did to the community, the ANC community in Gaberone and it's important to not ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be any different from our experience within the country those days?

MR BERGER: Yes, I submit it was.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR BERGER: Well perhaps Ms Anderson can explain.

CHAIRPERSON: Besides from that, of what relevance is it going to be to us when making a determination in this hearing?

MR BERGER: Well Chairperson, because, well let me say what I intend to argue and then it will become relevant.  I intend to argue that this nice distinction that the applicants have sought to draw between who were targets of the raid and who were not targets of the raid, between people involved in political work as opposed to people involved in military work and it was only the military people who were targets of the raid, I submit that that is a lie, that is not a distinction that was drawn at the time, that in fact the South African authorities were out to teach the ANC a lesson and because of the attacks which had emanated from Botswana, as the evidence has been, that there were attacks into South Africa, the South African forces, we know from Mr McPherson, knew that there was going to be a conference in Kabwe at the time, they knew that a lot of high ranking people were going to be out of Botswana at the time, nevertheless the raid was proceeded with and the raid was intended, I will submit, to smash anybody who was in any way linked to the ANC, be it MK, political or even people like George and Lindi Pahle, people who were connected to the ANC because they were friends of people who were in the ANC because they had parties, anybody who was remotely connected to the ANC was a target of that raid and what Ms Anderson can tell you is how the raid effectively snuffed out the whole cultural experience of what was Gaberone at the time, that's why this evidence is important.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a bit difficult to have with that, and I'm not saying it's unimportant, it may be very important in other spheres of our history, what you are telling me is that Ms Anderson will be giving an educated opinion of how that raid affected the lives of the exiled community there.  Have we got any evidence that that is in fact so, that that was the plan of the raid in the first place?

MR BERGER: Well Chairperson, I will argue that, you recall how the evidence was led, in the beginning when Mr Visser went through Exhibit B and he asked his first witness who from Exhibit B was on the list of targets, there were a couple of people who were on the list of targets.

CHAIRPERSON: I made this point, Mr Berger before you, if anything that distinction may operate against the applicants.  I speak for myself.

MR BERGER: The distinction?

CHAIRPERSON: The distinction between those that they saw were the targets as opposed to what you want to suggest and argue.  I say the distinction, if anything, will operate against the applicants.

MR BERGER: That may be so, Chairperson, but my submission is that you will see from the evidence how certain people were originally on the list and then as the applicants continued to give that evidence, so it became vaguer and vaguer and vaguer.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm wary of that.