Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-17

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: I've forgotten David's surname, but we were in the same prison with him at Leeukop.

MR MAPOMA: Where was Lulamile when you shot the deceased?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Lulamile Khwankwa was not present.

MR MAPOMA: Was Lulamile present in the planning of the killing of the deceased?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: He wasn't.

MR MAPOMA: Where is Moss now?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: I've got no idea because even on that day I did the pointing out.  We never got him.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Any questions?  Questions, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.  Mr Mvijane, what jobs do traffic officers do in your understanding of things?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: According to the explanation that was given to me was that the traffic cops were members of the Government that oppressed us or they supported the Government in its oppression of the black nation.

MR LAX: I see.  So would you have killed anyone who supported the Government or who worked for the Government?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Yes, that is what I had been told, that that person is a potential target and an enemy of the African nation or African people.

MR LAX: So pension clerks and social workers and nurses, all of them who worked for the Government were potential enemies, as far as you were concerned?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: It was explained to me as to who were enemies, as I had explained it before, that it was soldiers, policemen as well as traffic officers and other trained people who were trained and even given arms to attack the African people.  I never mentioned clerks.

MR LAX: Well, how do traffic cops uphold apartheid?  How did they in the carrying out of their duties of regulating traffic, of catching people for speeding, how does that uphold apartheid?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: As I'd already explained, my commander Moss told me that the traffic cop had been given a gun, the soldier had been given a gun and they had been instructed that they had the right to use those guns in any manner that they pleased, and he explained it to me that all the guns that they possessed were not used to kill white but to kill black people.

MR LAX: You see, I'm asking you to use your own intelligence.  As a human being you have your own mind.  I'm asking you to use it.  I'm asking you how the duties of a traffic officer uphold apartheid?  How the duties of a traffic officer oppress anybody?  It's a simple question really.

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: When I was growing up in the location I would see traffic officers and ask myself why were they armed if they were only dealing with cars and the streets, and that was never clear to me as to why they had to be armed until Moss enlightened me as to why they were given the guns, because they were enemies and they were given those guns in order to kill black people.

MR LAX: Isn't it really a bit more obvious to you that traffic officers have to arrest people for offences in connection with traffic, and if those people want to avoid it they may shoot at them or they may be required to be arrested and that's why they would need a gun?  Isn't that an equally valid explanation?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: I wouldn't say it's particularly true or false because I've never worked under the previous Government or under the Traffic Department or soldiers.  I know absolutely nothing of the workings of the traffic cops, the police as well as the soldiers.  I would be telling a lie if I say I knew or know something about the specific duties of the traffic cops.

MR LAX: You see, what I'm asking you and the reason I'm asking this is I can understand that policemen and soldiers would be pillars of apartheid.  It's in the nature of their work to deal with that kind of thing.  But traffic officers deal with traffic matters, they don't deal with enforcing the laws of apartheid.  No single other APLA person that's ever appeared before me has said that a traffic cop was a valid target.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I perhaps for - just a minute, just a minute.  Just for the sake of fairness.  Mr Lax had put to you a position or a view which I think he's made clear is a personal view and he's referring to a personal experience on this Committee, but perhaps just for the sake of objectivity, it's not the first time where a matter has been heard by this Committee relating to disarming or killing traffic officers.  So bear that in mind as well when you respond to the question.

MR LAX: Fair enough, Chairperson, I accept that.  Let me rephrase the question in a different way.  The way I put it to you initially was to say, as I said earlier, that I can understand that the work of policemen and soldiers entails supporting apartheid.  What I don't understand is how the work of a traffic officer entails supporting apartheid.  And are you simply relying on what Moss told you or are you willing to think about what I put to you in the context of how I put it to you?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: I would not say I personally know about the duties or primary duties of a traffic officer.  All I know is the instructions that I had been given that a traffic officer, a policeman as well a soldiers are supporters of the previous - or were supporters of the previous regime.

MR LAX: Now, at the point you were heading when you saw the traffic officer on that day, you had actually been ordered to go home, is that not correct?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: I could say during that night we were on a patrolling mission to look for our targets, but after not having been able to identify any we decided to go home.  But that did not preclude me from carrying out the instruction thereafter, after I had met a potential target whom I regarded as an enemy of the African people.  So when I saw this traffic officer I saw an enemy.

MR LAX: You see, in your affidavit you don't say that you decided to go home, you say you were ordered to go home.  That means the operation was over and you were ordered to go home, correct?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: No, that's not correct, as I had already explained that it was a general instruction and I did not take the fact that I should go home as an instruction that I could not do any other thing besides go home, because I had to take the ammunition.  There was absolutely no need for me to go back to Moss and say, "Moss, I had seen a traffic issue out a new instruction as to whether I should kill or take the gun from the traffic officer".  There was a general instruction that was out.

MR LAX: Now, at the time that you saw this traffic officer, did you decide that you should do something about him and then discuss it with Doctor and then proceed?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: Yes, that is correct.  When we saw this traffic officer we discussed it amongst ourselves and identified him as a target, and we decided that we were going to disarm him.

MR LAX: And according to your evidence, Lulamile took no part in this whatsoever, the shooting of this man and the removing of his firearm?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: That is correct.

MR LAX: When you shot him where did you shoot him?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: I wouldn't be able to say because when I got to him he had his back towards me and as I was speaking to him he half turned to face me, that's when I shot him.

MR LAX: How far were you from him when you spoke to him?

NKOSINATHI MPUMELELO MVIJANE: I could say three to four feet.  I wasn't very far from him.

MR LAX: Why didn't you just grab him and put your gun into his back and say, "Give me your gun", finished?