Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Did Gakkie tell you how many members had cars?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not specifically.

MR WILLIAMS: Did he tell you whether the Steering Committee members lived in the area or whether they lived in other areas?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We did not discuss that.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you just turn to Bundle B, page 38, paragraph 74, would you mind just reading the sentence starting with "secret meetings"?
MR VAN ZYL
"... Secret meetings would be held here where acts of terror were discussed, planned against the government.  The following names of persons attached to the UDF, Western Cape, was supplied to me by Gakkie:  Chris Ferndale, Peter Williams, Bruce Malgas, Clint Joseph, Peter Oliver, Milne Thomas, Osman and Joe."

MR WILLIAMS: Now you have already testified that this list, this is the list of people that belonged to the Steering Committee, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, can I just ask you, when you wrote this statement, you were detained under Section 29?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you recall this list from memory or how did you draw this list, from what information did you draw this list?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: From my memory, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So you remembered names and surnames?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that you could remember seven names like that from a list that you probably just had a cursory glance at?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I recalled the names Chairperson, certain things one recall better than other things.

MR WILLIAMS: I see in Gakkie's statement he also mentions the list of names, more or less the same names that you have just supplied.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't know, it may be.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know whether he also made his statement while he was detained under Section 29?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I suppose so.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you have contact?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already testified to that, but only after my statements were made.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you at any stage know that Isgak could not read or write, at the time when he was still working for you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I don't think so.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, let's just go to the venue of the ELC.  I think you will accept that the parking area that you referred to in your earlier testimony, is based at the back of the ELC and not at the front section, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is the parking area that I pointed out yesterday.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but shall we accept that it is the back area?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: If you say it is a back entrance, that was the only entrance that  I knew of.

CHAIRPERSON: I think just for record purposes, there is a front entrance in which people can enter the Early Learning Centre, which faces onto the road, on the other side of the building from the building area, there is also an entrance which perhaps at the side, I think is more accurate to say, at the side of the ELC from which access can be obtained from that parking area.  There  are two ways in which people can get into the centre.

MR MARTINI: And also for the record, Mr Commissioner, the entrance from the parking area is a substantial entrance, it is not a little door, it seems as quite a big area?

CHAIRPERSON: It is similar to the front, yes, I mean it is easy access from the parking area, as easy as it is from the other entrance.

MR MARTINI: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr van Zyl, it is common cause that there is an entrance at the back and there is one at the front?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I accept that.

MR WILLIAMS: For the sake of convenience, shall we refer to the entrance where the parking lot is located, as the back entrance and the other area that the Judge referred to earlier, as the front area?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We can do that.

MR WILLIAMS: Is your testimony that you were not aware that there is a front area?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, correct.

MR WILLIAMS: I want to ask you are you sure about this aspect?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think I am reasonably certain because I cannot recall that there was another entrance pointed out to me. That is also why the back entrance was also observed.

MR WILLIAMS: So on the night of the incident, you were aware of only one entrance to the premises?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: And if there were cars parked at the front of the building, on that particular night, in the street obviously, would you have seen it?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I did not.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you explain to us why not?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Because I cannot recall that I was at the main entrance of those premises.

MR WILLIAMS: Who drove the car that you were travelling in that night?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already testified, it was Gakkie.

MR WILLIAMS: Did anyone else other than Gakkie, drive that particular car on that particular night?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, I just want to ask you about your movements, or the movements of your car on that particular night, and I want to refer to Bundle A, page 113 and we can step by step slowly go through what you say your movements were.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Bundle A, page 130?

MR LAX: Page 113.

MR WILLIAMS: Page 113.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, 113, sorry.

MR WILLIAMS: Let us start with the second sentence on that page.  It says
"... Isgak pointed the area around the hall to us, as well as the parking grounds where the vehicles of the members of the organisation were parked."
	Do I understand this to mean that you are only referring to the back part of the centre, the area around the hall only refers to the back part of the centre?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And the parking area located at the back?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is the only parking area.

MR WILLIAMS: And that you parked
"... we parked approximately 400 metres from the hall and it was already dark".
	Is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.
MR WILLIAMS
"... I sent Isgak into the hall to make sure that the children had left the hall, because that evening there was a karate class for children."
	Is that so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: How many times did you send Isgak in that night?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Only once.

MR WILLIAMS: Did Isgak leave the car at any other stage?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: So, apart from the, if you take it that he came to fetch you in Bellville at about seven o'clock, you went to the area, he only left the vehicle on one occasion and he was in the vehicle at all other times, after the bomb went off, he took you back to the airport, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: The next sentence reads
"... he also had to determine which members ..."
	so obviously when you sent Isgak in to go and check where the members of, or whether there were children in the hall, where was the car parked?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I said at that stage it was approximately 400 metres from the let's call it the parking area, where exactly it was, I cannot tell you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record as well, when we were at the inspection in loco, Mr van Zyl, when asked where the vehicle was when it was 400 metres away, couldn't recall whether it was towards the direction of the Civic Centre or whether it was towards the direction of a whole number of flats.

MR LAX: Block of flats.

CHAIRPERSON: Which are situated on a main road, that is about 70 to 100 metres from the parking lot, he wasn't sure which direction it was.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, when Gakkie went into the hall to see whether there were children or for whatever reason he went in there, did he use the back entrance or the front entrance, we have already defined, merely for the sake of convenience?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would not know.

MR WILLIAMS: At the time when he went into the hall, could you, or did you have, could you observe the hall, the parking area at that stage?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not at that stage.