Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Why do you think these people were killed?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, it was mainly political arguments that led to these killings.

UNKNOWN: I interrupted you, Mr Zeelie, before you want to add to your service in the Security Branch, is there anything else you'd like to say, there's nothing you'd like to add to what you did before you joined the Security Branch?   So when did you join the Security Branch?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: In July 1976 I joined the Security Branch.

UNKNOWN: And which rank did you have then?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: At that stage I was sergeant.

UNKNOWN: And where were you stationed?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I was stationed at John Vorster Square.

UNKNOWN: Would you also tell the honorary committee in which division you started at Security Branch?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I was stationed at the Black Force(?) Organisations, which included the ANC and the PAC.

UNKNOWN: When you're talking about Black Force Organisation, what did that entail?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: They were organisations which was black conscious developing organisations.

UNKNOWN: What did you have to do?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: We looked at infiltrations, also information and we monitored the organisations.

UNKNOWN: What did you want with this organisation, why was it necessary to have it?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It was necessary to have this information, to gain it, in order to protect the government of that day and to keep them in power, so that a takeover could not take place without the government offering resistance.

UNKNOWN: What did you understand, what did you believe, what was the goal of the government of that day?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: The intentions of the government were to keep the government in power and not to hand it over to a black force.

UNKNOWN: And what was the ANC's goal?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It was to undermine the government by using violence.   At that stage they were busy doing this thing.

UNKNOWN: Then you went over to the Investigation Unit?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.

UNKNOWN: And what did that entail?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It was investigation cases, looking into acts of terror as well as banned organisations, which included the PAC and the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, you talk a little bit fast, the interpreter seems to have a small problem following you, would you mind talking a little bit slower?

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Your Honour, I'll try and control that.  Mr Zeelie, when investigating these cases, what kind of cases did you investigate?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, I investigated several acts of terror where bombs exploded, people got injured, buildings were damaged, where people were killed.

UNKNOWN: And in these cases you investigated who were primarily the suspects in these cases?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: The suspects were primarily members of the Umkhonto we Sizwe of the ANC, and to a lesser extent members of the PAC.

UNKNOWN: And during the investigations of these cases, Mr Zeelie, could you determine what the ANC's methology(sic) was at that stage?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, I could determine that.   As I've said, they planted bombs, limpet mines, not only against State organisations, but also at innocent targets, Wimpy Bars and places where people went to eat.

UNKNOWN: So, as you believed, the onslaught at that stage was widely spread and could have happened anywhere?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.   I can just mention that even in black townships, people who might have been supporters of the ANC was also killed in bomb explosions and bombs planted by ANC members, trains running from Soweto, railway trucks, innocent black people who came from the black townships to the white suburbs was killed by the ANC.

UNKNOWN: As far as arrestations and finding these suspects, did it help to keep the government in control?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Absolutely, it's true that a lot of information obtained from people arrested, specifically members of the ANC, information gathered from these people was given to the government and it helped them to stay in power.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, did you do any courses?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, I did several courses at the Security Branch.

UNKNOWN: What were the natures of those courses?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I could just shortly mention several courses:  security, as well as advance security, BBP, as well as advanced BBP courses ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: When you say BBP, what are you referring to?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's B B P, those are very important people, it's VIP, it's very important people, so referring to ministers of other countries, when they came to visit the country, we had to make sure they're secure.   Also deactivation of bombs, defusing of bombs, weaponry used by terrorists, agent handling courses.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, this bomb defusing course that you did ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was this relevant to the Bopape killing, what does it have to do ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it's relevant in the sense ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...do we need to know what ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: ...it gives rise to the Bopape incident as well...

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but the ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: ...as far as his experience, and what he believed at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary to know what he did in a bomb disposal course?   I mean we can accept he had a course, but we know that when bombs go off, people die and get mutilated ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the relevance is, with regard to his experience where he attended the scenes where the ANC was involved with bomb explosions.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we've got a fair picture, but I just ask you please, I won't interrupt, but if you can get to the ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: I'll live with that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...incident as soon as possible please.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, in short, the bomb defusing operations you did, or the bomb disposal operations ...(intervention)

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: At one stage, I was in command at the Witwatersrand, which stretched from Krugersdorp up to Vereeniging and Springs ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, if you can mention the amount of cases you attended, or where bombs were planted by the ANC?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, I investigated 160 bomb explosion scenes.

UNKNOWN: And the devices used there, Mr Zeelie, did it differ from limpet mines to bombs?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It differed or it ranged from limpet mines to very difficult devices, up to car bombs.

UNKNOWN: And considering the amount of scenes you visited, what was the intensity of this onslaught by the ANC?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: The onslaught was very, very harsh, as I said, 160 bomb incidents which I investigated myself in the Johannesburg area.

UNKNOWN: And, Mr Zeelie, as far as this onslaught is concerned, and these different devices used and the consequences that flowed from this, the fact that people got mutilated, did this influence you as a person?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, I can only mention, and I believe it's important, that in my time I lifted 55 cache? depots, and I'd like to mention that at that stage what I found there, just to create a picture for you, what I gained out of the information obtained when interrogating ANC members, out of those 55 cachets, I retrieved 10 AK47 rifles and 2 500 bullets, two AND assault weapons, one VZZ sub-machine gun, 10 Scorpio machine pistols and 450 rounds of ammunition, five (Indistinct) machine pistols and 1 150 bullets, eight Tokarov pistols ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do we need the whole list of weapons?   I don't know how long it is, it might take half an hour to read it, if it's 55 ...(intervention)