Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Avenant, are you going to be calling your client?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Avenant?

MR AVENANT: Thank you Chair.  Gen Griebenauw, you are the applicant in this matter, and you are applying for amnesty in respect of your participation in Operation Katzen.
	You were attached to the South African Police, Security Branch.  Very briefly your background in the South African Police?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Chair, in 1959 I joined the Police.  I was stationed in Cape Town.  From Cape Town, I was sent to the Transkei and I was part of the Mounted Police.  Then I went to Windhoek in 1964 onwards.
	In 1975 I was sent to East London as Commanding Officer of the Investigating Branch of the Security Police.  In 1982 I was 
transferred to Paarl, second in command of the Security Branch there and in 1983 to 1985 I was in Cape Town, as Commanding Officer of the Investigating Branch of the Security Police, and in 1986 to 1989, I was the Commanding Officer of the Security Branch in the Border area, stationed in East London.
	In 1989 I was second in charge of the Security Branch in the Western Cape, 1989, December 1989 to 1990, December 1990, I was the Regional Commanding Officer of the Security Branch in the Western Cape and January 1991 to July 1992, I was in Pretoria, Head of the Investigating Department, Collection of Information and Intelligence and from August 1992 to May 1993, I was seconded as Commissioner of Police in kwaNdebele.

MR AVENANT: Now, Operation Katzen, it took place a couple of years ago, the acts associated with that, you have certain introductory comments that you want to make?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, I would like to ask the Committee when my evidence is evaluated by you, that you will bear in mind that I am testifying about things which took place about 12 years ago and that I terminated my association with the Police about eight years ago, and I entered a new era, a new world with new interests and I had no official documents at my disposal, whilst I was preparing for this application, but to a large extent I had to rely on my memory and you must also bear in mind, that Operation Katzen, formed a very, very small part of my entire task and the duties from 1986 to 1989.
	My primary task during that period was the maintenance of internal peace and stability in the RSA and the combating of crime.

MR AVENANT: Now General, the acts as indicated in paragraph 9(a)(i) of the application document, conspiracy to liberating a convicted prisoner, Charles Sebe from the Middeldrift prison and the abduction of Kwane Sebe and Makwanya.
	Before we deal with the particulars of that, Annexure D has been annexed to your application.  Chairperson, those were submissions made by four of the previous Commissioners of Police - I am not going to read out the entire document, there are just some excerpts which I want to comment on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I might say Mr Avenant, we have read the document.

MR AVENANT: Would you not require any attention being given to this document?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we are aware of the contents, if you wish to stress anything, you are free to do so.

MR AVENANT: Thank you.  Gen Griebenauw, if you please look at paragraph 12, page 192 of the bundle.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It says, while the ANC/SACP alliance and the PAC were carrying out acts of resistance, often of a violent nature, within the borders of the RSA, a military type struggle insurgency (indistinct) was developing in Southwest-Africa, now Namibia.
	A similar offence have developed shortly thereafter in Zimbabwe, while the South African Defence Force was involved in the struggle against the Southwest African Peoples' Organisation, the former Rhodesian Security Forces were involved in the various campaigns in that country.
	Why I am quoting that is this was the first time the South African Police entered the military terrain and from this period onwards, we would become increasingly involved in military terrain and that was a total, it brought about a total shift of emphasis in the Police.  There were many adjustments which had to be made by myself and people under my command as a result of this new area that we were moving into.
	Up to that date, we were concentrating on combating crime and investigating crime and now, from this point onwards, our role started changing.

MR AVENANT: That is then what is also touched on in paragraph 13, paragraph 14, that is a further extension of that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It says here ordinary Policemen drawn from the ranks of the Police from the whole country, involved in these guerrilla warfare and counter-insurgency activities, where he had in fact had to kill or be killed, became progressively more accustomed to this type of conflict and the ways, means and methods utilised to combat the enemy.
	It is just confirmation of what I have already said.

MR AVENANT: There were also certain statements made by people in the ANC leadership, which actually links up with this and created the conditions in which the Security Forces had to operate.  I think perhaps if you could refer to the circumstances in 1980.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, just briefly.  I would just like to give you one quote, it says in the 1980's, this comes out of the Sheshaba, the official mouthpiece of the ANC, in the 1980's community organisations such as CIVICS, students' and youth organisations and women's structures, began to spring up all over South Africa.
	This was a rebirth of the mass congress movement and led to the formation of the United Democratic Front.  Massive national school boycotts erupted the townships in 1980, and again in 1984 and 1985.
	(Indistinct) organisations and (indistinct) also took a major step forward with the formation together with independent Unions that had begun to grow in the 70's.  Cosatu committed itself to advancing the struggle of workers, both in the workplace and in the community.
	1987 saw the highest number of strikes ever, including a strike by over 300 000 mine workers.  In 1985, the ANC called on township residents to make townships ungovernable, by destroying the black local authorities.
	Councillors and Police were called on to resign, municipal buildings and homes of collaborators, were attacked.  As the administrative system broke down, people established their own democratic structures to run the community, including Street Committees and People's Courts.
	An atmosphere of mass insurrection prevailed in many townships and rural towns across the country, during 1985 and 1986.  Mass struggles and the armed struggle began to support one another.
	A state of emergency was declared over many parts of the country in July 1985.  It lasted for six months and then in June 1986, a national emergency was declared.  That lasted until 1990.
	Chairperson, when I arrived in East London, a whole number of my members of staff, were black staff members, and they had been driven out of their homes in Mdantsane.  They were actually living on boats in the East London harbour, that is how the things were at the time.

MR AVENANT: If we then look at paragraph 20 of the document, 195.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that also refers back to Gen Van der Westhuizen's evidence.   To combat what the South African government asserted to be a total onslaught against all its power bases, that is political, economic, structural, administrative and social, it argued that a total strategy was imperative.  This total strategy was to harness all the State's resources, energies and competencies, thus the National Management System was born, comprising the National Security Management System and the National Welfare Management System.
	There you have the organogram and I won't comment on that any further.