Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR MKHIZE: No, it was not possible for that to happen because the police arrested us and we did not get an opportunity to discuss that.

MR LAX: Even up until today?

MR MKHIZE: Well, we did explain as we were seeking, or as we were preparing to seek amnesty.

MR LAX: And what was his attitude?

MR MKHIZE: He complained.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to the day when you went to attack Boipatong, when did the people in the hostel begin to complain about no action being taken against Boipatong residents?

MR MKHIZE: They had been complaining for quite a while, although I will not be able to specify exactly when.  As from the first time, the first day when people were killed, the people started complaining.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the nature of their complaints?

MR MKHIZE: They were complaining that they were being killed, they were being eliminated and no action was being taken by the leadership.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom were these complaints addressed?

MR MKHIZE: Although I do not know whether they did address these complaints to Prince Vanana, but in most instances, they were addressed to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the committee of which you are a member, ever discuss this complaints?

MR MKHIZE: No.  They were never discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MR MKHIZE: I am not sure.  It could be because it had never been brought to their attention.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you not as a member of that committee, raise the matter with the committee?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not discuss it with them.  The only person I reported it to, was the Prince.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you perhaps attempt to seek guidance from senior members of the IFP, apart from Mr Vanana Zulu?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.  I did not inform anyone who was senior to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  As I understand your evidence, you said that as the leader of AmaButho, you had the authority to order the attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why people would come to you with this complaint and not to the other members of the IFP?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.  They came to me because they knew that I was the leader of AmaButho.  I was the one who would actually take their complaints forward to the Prince.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get the feeling that they came to you because you had the authority to order the attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position, there were regular patrols around the hostel, kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: The patrols were normally at the firm, not necessarily in the hostel where we resided.

CHAIRPERSON: In the course of the patrols, did the police or the army, come to the hostel or at least to the gates of the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Sometimes they would come to the hostel and we will see them if they came during the day.

CHAIRPERSON: The entrances to the hostel, how many were there?

MR MKHIZE: There is one main gate.

CHAIRPERSON: And is this gate manned by security officers?

MR MKHIZE: Initially there was no security, but as time went on, there was somebody who was posted at the gate.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this individual posted at the gate?

MR MKHIZE: Although I cannot remember correctly, but I think it was after, subsequent to the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know any reason why there would have been a security at the gate only after the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  As you prepared, you have been asked this question and I am going to repeat it, as you prepared to leave the hostel, armed in the manner in which you described, did it not occur to you that you might come across one of the police patrols before you reach Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: It did not occur, but it did not occur at that particular point when we actually proceeded to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Why is that so?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know why, but I did not think of it.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it because you were the Commander, and you would ordinarily be concerned about the safety of your men, were you not?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: What steps if any, did you then take to ensure that they would not be exposed to any arrest by the police?

MR MKHIZE: I did not take any steps.  What was on my mind, was that we were just going to go out and launch this attack.  No one questioned if we were ever going to meet police or if we were going to be arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Is it a fact that prior to the 17th of June, which is the day of the attack, or at least immediately before that day, it was generally known in the hostel, that there will be an attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I do not think that is true, because no one had been informed about the decision.  We feared that if that information were to leak, it could even get to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not saying that it was known that the attack was going to take place on the 17th, but what was known was that there will be an attack at some point, at some future date?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Was this announced at a public meeting?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you make that announcement?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: You may have been asked this question, but let me ask you again, do you know Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you ever heard the name Nosenga at any stage?

MR MKHIZE: I have heard of the name Matanzima, although I have never seen the person.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you know about Matanzima?  What did you know about the name Matanzima?

MR MKHIZE: I heard that there was a certain Matanzima who had actually arrived at the hostel when we were arrested, and he said that he had been actually sent to go and kill people.

CHAIRPERSON: It is Nosenga, but this was only after you had been arrested?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, after we had been arrested.  I do not know him at all.
	I don't think he would be able to identify me, himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I just want to give you the opportunity to comment if you will, on the allegation that he made.  You see, he has made a sworn statement which is to the effect that there were police who escorted AmaButho into Boipatong.  Your evidence is that there were no police?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you perhaps think of any reason why Nosenga will make this allegations?

MR MKHIZE: What he is saying, is not true.  It is not the truth at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you think of any reason why he would make this allegation?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know.  The allegation that there were police accompanying people or who were transporting people, is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have been furnished with a memorandum  which was submitted on behalf of the victims, one of the allegations which they make, is that white men were seen amongst the attackers in Boipatong.  Did you understand that?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I understand you.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to these allegations?

MR MKHIZE: What I can say is that it is not true.  As I mentioned before, I did not understand why when seeking amnesty, I would hide or fear to divulge information on who was present.
	I would actually give all that information, if the police were present, I would say they were part of that attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Is there a possibility that because of the large numbers of persons who were in Boipatong to attack, and the size of Boipatong, there were police but you didn't see them?

MR MKHIZE: I would dispute that, because there was no car, no vehicle that was seen in that vicinity at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Very well, thank you Mr Mkhize.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, might I ask two questions flowing from questions from the Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.