Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, as I testified I shot from the left rear of the vehicle of the kombi, who moved past us on the right and there were shots fired and then there were also shots from the rear of our vehicle to the right hand side, shots came from that direction as well, that's what I can recall.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were in that kombi, do you know?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was three people.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of them were armed, do you know?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I'm assuming that they were all armed.

CHAIRPERSON: And I take it you don't know who was in the vehicle immediately behind your vehicle?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: If I was to speculate I think it would have been the reaction unit's vehicle who were shooting from behind.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were all armed?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: One final question just to clear my mind, are you certain that there was never a decision that these people should be shot and killed beforehand?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Most definitely, there was no such a decision taken beforehand.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Botha, when you were at kwaMashu Police Station, I seem to recall that you said that the purpose was that you planned preventative action?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: But what would the content of these plans be?  What did the preventative action include?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It included to in respect of people whom we thought were on their way to attack certain targets, to arrest these people, to try and thereby prevent serious damage to property or loss of life.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you not discuss ways and means as to how you would prevent this and how you would stop these people.  Surely you would have expected these people to be in possession of arms?  Did you discuss the extent of the operation and how far you would have to go?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It's a very difficult situation, the problem was that if we could get the opportunity to arrest the people properly, but the problem was we didn't actually know which targets they had targeted so we didn't know where to arrest the people and we always had the fear that we would reveal the identity of our informers so what we did was to try and intercept people on the road when they left their homes.

ADV BOSMAN: Or is this said or implicitly or expressly that when this happened that shots had to be fired?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, I mentioned in my statement, if I can perhaps just find the place, we discussed this amongst ourselves that if shots were fired at us we would have no choice but to fire back, we didn't realise that these were dangerous people and that we would have to deal with the situation as we found it.

ADV BOSMAN: On the evidence here it would seem to me as if it was an exercise "horribly gone wrong" that's the impression that I'm getting, am I right or wrong?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Now if one looks at it ex post facto, what would do you think what went wrong, what caused this operation to go so awry because now we know that the people were not in possession of weapons?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: After I tried to stop the vehicle by shouting, "police, police" people tried to force me off the road twice and then there was a collision with the front kombi in an attempt to flee and thereafter I decided to halt the vehicle by shooting at the tyres and thereafter the spontaneous exchange of fire took place.

ADV BOSMAN: Perhaps it's not a fair question but what triggered the shooting in your opinion?  You were there.

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was try and bring the vehicle to a halt so that we could arrest the people.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm assuming that a docket was opened in respect of this case?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: There was an inquest docket, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know what happened to the vehicle in which these people were passengers?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I'm assuming that the vehicle was seized and what happened afterwards I'm not sure.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ever read the docket, the inquest docket, do you have any knowledge of those proceedings?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, I testified in the inquest.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you recall whether the vehicle had been inspected in respect of the number of gunshot wounds, had that been noted anywhere?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I can't recall.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm not a police officer but as a former State Prosecutor, public prosecutor, I would expect that there would have to be a definite record as to how the vehicle looked after the incident where all the bullet holes were on the sides or wherever.

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, I'm sure that or I believe that that would have been in the inquest docket.

ADV BOSMAN: You can't recall however that that was ever an issue?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: In what respect?

ADV BOSMAN: The question as to whether the bullet holes or the bullets had entered from the top, the roof or from the sides or from the windows or wherever?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, unfortunately I didn't have a look at this docket, I'm not familiar with it.

ADV BOSMAN: So you can't help us to determine from which directions these shots could have been fired.  Then a last aspect, last question Mr Botha, Mr Webster put it to you and we all know that a feeling of remorse or regret whatever is not essential in an amnesty application.  However, I do feel that you can appreciate the emotional quality of the amnesty application?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And I'm asking you is there nothing which you would like to say outside of the strict legal confines of the case?  I see that you're looking at your legal representative, Mr Botha, it's not my intention to corner you, to make life difficult for you, I'm simply asking you whether there isn't perhaps a need on your part to say something to the family?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever find out who the occupants were, whether they were in fact members of the ANC or any organisation of that kind?  Did you have any information at all about these people?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson yes, one person Brian Mamela according to Col Andy Taylor, he'd been a trained terrorist, MK terrorist.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing about the others?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED