Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us just confine ourselves to April 1993 Sir.  At the time, you and other right-wing Parties hoped for a peaceful solution to the constitutional negotiations that were going on at Kempton Park, correct?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And sometime after April, you and other - when I say you I mean the Conservative Party, and other parties formed various alliances in order to strengthen your demand for self-determination, is that correct?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, that is correct Sir, perhaps I would also like to say to Mr Bizos that from the first day we noted that there were many prejudices against self-determination and I can accept that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis was entitled - from the beginning, to draw the conclusion that we were not going to succeed and that is eventually what was proven.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were not asked about that opinion ...[intervention]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, but I give you that - if is necessary for the record to also put it on the record.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  We will deal with Mr Derby-Lewis and his possible understanding of the policy that you ...[indistinct] enunciated on the 20th of April.  Please be patient with me Doctor Hartzenberg, and answer the question and we - you will be re-examined by your counsel in order to tell us your views about Mr Derby-Lewis if I omit it, please answer the questions Sir.
	Now, COSAC was formed, were you party to it?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was that an attempt at putting pressure on the negotiation process?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, COSAC was formed in 1992, directly after the signing of the Record of Understanding and it was clear then that the Government - the National Party Government of the time and the ANC, had already reached an agreement with the exclusion all other parties and for that reason we formed COSAC in order to exert pressure to see if we couldn't influence the process, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was COSAC in existence in April?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, it existed.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was a further alliance formed thereafter, in order to try and get a political solution to which the Conservative Party was a member?  What was that alliance called?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: It was the freedom alliance which arose from COSAC.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you in court when Mr Walus gave evidence as to why he killed Mr Hani and what he hoped to achieve, were you in court, were you here?

CHAIRPERSON: When you say here, do you mean ...[inaudible]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: ...[inaudible]

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible] weren't here.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.

CHAIRPERSON: Just formulate your question, what you really mean to say is that was he ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you here when - were you at the Committee meeting - which I think was here when these questions were asked Mr Chairman, when Mr Walus gave evidence as to what he hoped to achieve by killing Mr Hani?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I couldn't attend all the hearings, I think Mr Bizos must specify what he's referring to.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, let me tell you what I'm making reference to.  In cross-examination Mr Walus said that the political objective that he hoped to achieve by killing Mr Hani, was that Black people - because of high leadership profile, would create chaos by particularly directing their anger at White people and according to his evidence he expected at least 100 to 200 White people to be killed in order to have the beginning of the chaos.
	He further went on and said that he realised that if Black people killed White people, White people would retaliate and there would be real chaos in the country and that the army and the police and the security forces would be forced to put down the - put an end to the chaos that had been created and then the army, police - in the situation that arose, would persuade Afrikaners to take part in a revolt and that the Government would come into the hands of the Conservative Party and other right-wing parties, in order to prevent the take-over.  Now, this is what he said, did any portion of that form the policy of the Conservative Party?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Chairperson, Mr Walus gave his evidence under oath and I accept that when he said that he meant it and that he thought that it was possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I am asking you Sir, as the leader of the Conservative Party, whether it was any part of the Conservative policy to create chaos and bloodshed and uncontrolled revolution in the country by killing Mr Hani, was that a part of CP policy - according to you it's leader?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I think it must be clear to the Committee and Mr Bizos, that the Conservative Party wasn't involved in the planning of this incident.

GEORGE BIZOS: That was not the question Sir.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: We were not involved in the planning and because we weren't involved it's impossible for me to say, we didn't plan it at all, we weren't involved in the planning, so that is the answer.

JUDGE WILSON: The question was not the planning as I understood it, the question was: "Was that the policy of the Party"?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: If it was the policy of the Party, we would have planned it but we didn't plan it.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, this wasn't the policy of the Party because ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] I will take that as an answer, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Can you please tell me - point specifically to any statement or act performed by the Conservative Party or made by the Conservative Party that my have given Mr Walus this idea?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I think I must point out to you once again, that at that stage - in the previous year 3.000 odd people were killed and in the year - we are talking about 3.700 were killed, violence was rampant in South Africa and we lived in a very explosive situation.
	The Conservative Party was busy mobilising and we said expressly that we would not voluntarily surrender our freedom and that we were trying to retain it and if we were then forced, we would defend ourselves.  
	I told you yesterday, that from the outset we accepted that Mr Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus had - they were reasoning from their own subjective views and opinions and that they thought that they were acting in the furtherance of the CP's cause.
	And I would like to say once again that the two applicants and Mr Andrew Zondo's case are identical.  They did not act - either of them did not or not one of them acted on specific instructions, they all say they were acting for the cause, they all received the death penalty and I think they all should be treated equally and receive equal treatment now because the cases are similar and identical.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you please indicate to us any particular statement of the CP or any act committed by the CP, which would have given Mr Walus the idea that he was carrying out Conservative Party policy by committing an act which would throw the country into chaos?  Please do not tell us what other people did - was any statement made by the CP or was there any act committed by the CP that it may have given Mr Walus the idea that he was carrying out Conservative Party policy by killing Mr Hani for the consequences that I have put to you?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: We indicated to you yesterday that the slogan: "The Third Freedom Struggle", that that had already started and that was interpreted differently by different people and not only Mr Clive Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus but also Mr Koos Botha, they all interpreted that in their own way and they interpreted it as justification for proceeding to action.

GEORGE BIZOS: Other than those two, is there any other statement or act of the Conservative Party - that you can refer the Committee to, which might have enabled Mr Walus to interpret the CP policy in the manner I described to you?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Bizos.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, if you give me a chance ...[intervention]