Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Thank you, Chairperson.
 Mr de Kock, and maybe you can be careful when you answer this question, when do you, Mr de Kock, know that you are going to kill Mabotha?

MR DE KOCK: That was after the last discussion with Colonel Potgieter.

MR SEMENYA: No, give me time, place or date?

MR DE KOCK: I would, as much as I would like to do that, I, however, still can't do that, it is virtually impossible because the number of operations I have been involved in, amnesty and application for that, are so many and other operations that went with that are perhaps even more.

MR SEMENYA: No, what I am trying to establish is, we know that on 4th October 1989 Colonel Potgieter was going to release him, right?

MR DE KOCK: Could you repeat that, please.

MR SEMENYA: On the 4th October '89 Mabotha was going to be released from detention.  You can accept that.

MR DE KOCK: I didn't have the date but I have heard the date now.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know before that that you were going to kill him?

MR DE KOCK: Well, I wouldn't say before that date but it could be shortly before that date because we had to make arrangements.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, two or three days before you knew you were going to kill him?

MR DE KOCK: I cannot tell.  With us it wasn't a matter, it would take us a week to come up with such arrangements, it could also happen in three hours.

MR SEMENYA: No, but when you go to De Deur to collect him you knew you were going to kill him?

MR DE KOCK: I knew, yes, because the members with the explosives were already on their way to Penge Mine, the people who would receive Mr van Niekerk and Mr Britz who would receive him, and I don't want to sort of cast a negative light on them were already waiting on the Bronkhorstspruit highway, Delmas, or one of those places, so it was a matter of where he were to be picked up, he would have been taken straight to Penge Mine.

MR SEMENYA: My understanding of de Deur is that turn-off is approximately 800 metres to the police station, is that a fair estimate?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, I guess it's about 5 to 800 metres yes.

MR SEMENYA: So at that time you knew that this man was going to be taken and and was going to be killed and cannot be fetched from the police station itself, is that right?

MR DE KOCK: He cannot be?

MR SEMENYA: He cannot be fetched from the police station itself?

MR DE KOCK: No, I, it wouldn't be possible for me to fetch him.  The reasons for that is that I am not known.  As far as I know, there was a register of people who were allowed to visit Section 20 detainees and no other member could book those people out, as it were, and the person who worked with him would be the person who had to fetch him and bring him out because there was documentation, there are entries and he had to be booked out at the S.A.P., his property had to be returned to him and so forth.

MR SEME: NYA:   I am just saying you know you didn't want to go into police station de Deur and say "I Mr de Kock am here who'd want to take out this Mr Mabotha"?

MR DE KOCK: What I tried to tell you, and this is why I mentioned it and mentioned the registers, is that even though I walked in and said I wanted to see Mr Mabotha, they wouldn't have given him to me because there was a register that had to be signed by the investigating officer, there were telephone numbers in that register, and I am not trying to say this, I am trying to be thorough and complete.

MR SEME: NYA:   Sir you could have got Mr Mabotha from Col Potgieter inside the building of De Deur, is that, was that physically possible?

MR DE KOCK: No.

MR SEME: NYA:   It was not  humanly possible for you to receive Mabotha from Colonel Potgieter within the premises of de Deur police station?

MR DE KOCK: No, because that would have brought a situation that Mabotha was being let free but he's handed over to people.  It's a matter of distance here and a matter of denying things, in other words he was booked out by Jan Potgieter, he gave him an opportunity whether he wanted to take him to a taxi or to the station, there was the distance between Vlakplaas and Jan Potgieter.  We cannot be held responsible for that.   Jan Potgieter could say that he gave him a lift and gave him a ticket but he never saw him again.  It is about an alibi here.

MR SEME: NYA:   To explain to you, sir, maybe with a lot of difficulty that you and Colonel Potgieter knew you were going to kill this man, and you were trying to find a way in which the course of justice would not follow you?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, I've already replied to that.  I am sorry for expecting that a half a word would really bring you to understand that.

MR SEMENYA: But there is also an incident in which I would want your assistance.  You recall the kombi that was ambushed in Nelspruit?

MR DE KOCK: Can you repeat?

MR SEMENYA: Do you recall the details of the kombi that  that was ambushed in Nelspruit?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct yes.

MR SEMENYA: And one of the occupants actually fled and escaped that ambush, isn't that right?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct.

MR SEMENYA: And you followed that person and you got him killed as well, isn't that right?

MR DE KOCK: No, I didn't follow him and I didn't kill him either.  Anyway I had no reason to do that.   There were a number of circumstances around that and later as a group it was decided that there was no other option.   He was not the first and he wasn't the last either.

MR SEMENYA: I am trying to make that clearly there must have been a tacit understanding within the security forces that the terrorists as you saw them were not to be prosecuted but to be executed?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, under certain circumstances, in certain cases, yes, but then again, and I doubt that you want to hear this, but we worked with military trained members of a movement that was trained by the best from Russia and other countries.  If you don't want to listen to me, tell me that, but I am trying my best to give you a full picture.  If you don't want to hear that, I'm sorry.

MR SEMENYA: Have you finished giving me a full picture?

MR DE KOCK: No, because you didn't give me the opportunity.  It is not a matter of merely getting something from the ANC and killing him at Piet Retief.  For instance, we had trained people from MK who asked no mercy and didn't receive any mercy either, and in order to take on these people other than in a military way causes one's own death, and if it comes to an ambush it is standard procedure that the person who takes the initiative gets precedence to his own people.  You find yourself in a war situation, we are not playing games here.
Yes, I am through.

MR SEMENYA: The official information arising out of the ambush in Nelspruit was that these people were robbers and they were sent by Winnie Mandela;  do you recall that?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, there were indications of that, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: : Mr Semenya, can I intervene at this stage, are you going to continue with that line of questioning and, if so, of what relevance is it to the matter we are dealing with at present?

MR SEMENYA: May I remind myself, Chairperson, that the hearings, as I understand them, are investigations into the activities of Mrs Winnie Mandela and the United Football Club.  We have an event here which is, on their version, a false event in which they are alleging Mrs Winnie Mandela was involved in robberies.  I can establish better relevance to illustrate the point that the security forces had an ample and deliberate plan to involve her in these activities and the case, if I understood it well, we have been told all the time that there was this broad notoriety about her activities in criminal actions.   This must include those criminal activities where people are involved in a robbery.   But there was no robbery.  We know now from Mr de Kock it wasn't.  That is the basis and the relevance of why I ask these questions.