Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I can tell you but not about the assault but what happened after she regained consciousness.  After Mrs Matoti regained consciousness I left the office, I then heard that she was taken to Engangaliswe, I don't know who took her to Engangaliswe but in the morning Sergeant Nkunkwana and Mdinge were the ones who fetched her at Engangaliswe.  They came back saying that Mrs Matoti fell down the stairs in Engangaliswe.  I found out later that that did not happen like that.  Mrs Matoti was affected by the torture during the day and her loop was also affected, that was the report that we got from the doctor in hospital.

MR LAX: Sorry, what was affected?  Her something?  I didn't hear the word in the translation unfortunately.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Because of the torture she was sick because of the torture, it's the IUD contraceptive that was the report that we got from the doctor. Umbumgwani and Dinge were the ones who took her to Engangaliswe.  Even in the morning they were the ones who fetched her that is why I'm saying, I'm disputing one question and Mrs Matoti knew very well who took her to Engangaliswe and who fetched her from Engangaliswe.  She was admitted from the hospital and the IUD was affected.

MR STOFILE: The problem I have with you, you are saying there were two people who took her to there, to Engangaliswe on the 16th and then the following morning you say those two people fetched her the following day.  You see, the version of my client differs from your version and the thing is supported by other documents to the effect that she was taken to Engangaliswe at about six, you know, after you stopped assaulting her about 6 o'clock in the afternoon, not in the evening.  Then when she was in Engangaliswe, she only - she was sick and always at Engangaliswe they used to phone your offices at Norwood but you wouldn't come to fetch her because she complained she was sick and then it was only on the fourth day that she was fetched, not by you this time, by two other people she doesn't know who were part of the assaulting team.  You see, my question is, are you perhaps mistaken when you say the following day these very people, two people went to fetch her from the hospital?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: According to my further information that I got I was not present when this happened but Mrs Matoti was taken there by Ndinge and Nkunkwana and it was also Ndinge and Nkunkwana who fetched her, that was the information that I got, I was not involved.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Stofile is putting to you, you gave the clear impression to us that after Ms Matoti was revived you left and then you heard that she had been taken to Engangaliswe by Nkunkwana and this other person and that they came the next day, they came with the story that she had fallen down the stairs but then you learnt that that wasn't true and in fact she was sick from the treatment she had got when being interrogated.  The clear impression was that you had seen her the next day when she was brought back from Engangaliswe.  Now what Mr Stofile is putting to you was that she remained at Engangaliswe Police Station for four days, she was only brought out on the fourth day.  What do you say to that?  It wasn't the next day?  In other words it was about the 20th February then, Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: It was the 19th.

CHAIRPERSON: The 19th February, the interrogation took place on the 16th February.

MR LAX: It was in fact the Thursday.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not see Mrs Matoti.  Even when she was taken to the hospital, I don't know who took her to the hospital but I got a report from the hospital.  The reason why she was sick, I don't know who took her to the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: After the 16th February when did you next see Ms Matoti?  Can you remember?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I saw her when she was released from detention when she lodged a civil claim, when she applied for a civil claim after she was released from detention, that's when I saw her.

MR LAX: Sorry, if you gave us the impression that you saw her the next day, that's a mistake?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It's a mistake if I gave out that impression.

MR STOFILE: Maybe for your benefit, since you say you're not there, Mrs Matoti's account is that when she was fetched ultimately she was so in a bad state, she has not eaten for four days, she has not eaten food for four days and she was complicated and she was almost passing out and the two officers - it's not you this time, who fetched her talked among themselves after she had even collapsed and fainted and you know, whilst she was taken down the stairs at Engangaliswe, then they talked amongst themselves and said look, let's go and take her to the hospital and say we do not know where we've picked her up, we picked her up from the location somewhere.  They decided that on the spot.  I'm just telling you because your comment is that you are not aware, I'm just mentioning it as a follow up, that she was so sick they said she was dying and they wanted to dump her at the hospital.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I hear you, Sir.

MR STOFILE: Now let's come back, you earlier mentioned that in 1990 you heard from - you were conscientised by Dehulele, Zamele and Mayapi.  I've had a word with one of them and they say that that's not the case.  In fact it was the time of the transformation from the old regime to the new regime at ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That would be about 1994, somewhere around there?

MR STOFILE: The early stages of it.  The point I'm asking is that it was a time when there was a moratorium about 1990.  Do you remember that?  Of criminal people prosecuted from political, criminal offences, that they were pardoned?  I make specific reference to the case of - I've spoken to Pambile Gizala who was with Sisande Masi, who was with Agadia, they were released from ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: Chairperson, sorry, I don't understand what is all happening now.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Stofile, when did - I'm just looking in the notes, when did Mr Siqhola say he spoke to these people?  Paragraph 17, during or about 1989.  I think just put it to him, when they actually spoke to him if at all, instead of coming with a long, long story?

MR STOFILE: I put it to you that you are taking a way out to them using them as an excuse.  What actually happened at the time there was a moratorium on capital - on the execution of the capital punishment and all the political prisoners in Transkei were being, you know, released form being prosecuted?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know anything about that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The gentleman is very aware of politics, I was not trying to take chances.  Msemela and the other gentlemen were unaware that they were changing me, we were just shouting as they were detainees but they were unaware that they were doing something on my mind, changing my mind.  I didn't say that they were doing that consciously, they were unaware of what they were doing, that there was something happening on my mind through our conversation so I would like to be protected because he is now talking too much about politics, I'm not sure whether we are finished with Mrs Matoti's case.

MR STOFILE: You've even got a question of politics in your affidavit and anyway a strange thing is that when you change your mind, if I understand your evidence, you had signed an oath when you joined the security police and you were scared because you were going to be - you know there were appraisals which were going to happen to you if you changed your position you know, from being active in your duties as a security police.  Now somewhere in 1990 you changed and then you had to be taken to another office to sort out post?

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairperson, what is the question to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: We're all waiting for the question.