Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: We are continuing with the same matter as yesterday. Mr Visser were we at the end where you had just finished asking questions, or did something occur to you overnight?

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman I'm a little bit deaf, I didn't hear you. Can I just put on my microphone?  I'm sorry Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I was saying that I think yesterday you were at a point where you had just finished asking questions.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: (s.u.o.)

ADV VISSER: (cont)
	Mr Chairman that is indeed correct but may I beg your indulgence there.  There are three further issues which will take a very short time, with your leave, which I would just like to put to the witness and I will be finished.
	Mr Sehlwana while you were travelling in the combi with the six people that you had picked up, were you talking to each other?  Were you having discussions, or were you all quiet?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I was quiet.

ADV VISSER: And what about them?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No they were not talking, they started to speak when they were giving each other apples, that everyone should take up an apple.

ADV VISSER: When you were giving the apples out, as you put it, did anyone say anything about what would happen if the car was stopped by the police, what they would do?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They didn't say anything in that regard Sir.

ADV VISSER: Well you see the evidence will be that you later told Koos van den Berg that while you were travelling they had told you that if they met any resistance that they were going to fight.  Is that not true?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know that Sir.

ADV VISSER: Just tell the Committee Mr Sehlwana, during this whole procedure were you afraid that something might happen to you, were you fearful of your safety with these people in the car?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If I was afraid I couldn't have taken them to the car.  I only know that I should take them to that point and I think that is all.

ADV VISSER: So your short answer is you weren't scared at all?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I was not scared Sir.

ADV VISSER: I was informed today that you were in fact present when the right rear window of that combi was removed from the car.  Is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's not true.

ADV VISSER: I'm also informed that it was explained very carefully to you why it was done, namely, so that a teargas grenade could be thrown into the car to give you the maximum opportunity to escape.  Is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't remember that.

ADV VISSER: Is it correct, and this is the last point Mr Chairman, is it correct that you visited Mr Koos van den Berg last Sunday at his home?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I went to his house to enquire about the direction to Capricorn High School.

ADV VISSER: Did you mention something about you having to go Cape Town?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know that Sir.

ADV VISSER: Well Mr Sehlwana, it's quite a simple question, with respect, did you mention to him that you're going to go to Cape Town?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't tell him that.  I didn't know anything about Cape Town because I didn't know what I was going to do in Cape Town.

ADV VISSER: He says you told him that you were informed by Captain Molapo ...(intervention)

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I said to him, Captain Molapo had phoned me that I should come to the Commission, he phoned me on Wednesday, that's what I told him that that person was coming from Cape Town.

ADV VISSER: He says that you told him that Captain Molapo told you that after these hearings you are to go to Cape Town where you are to meet Mr Joe Modise and the Deputy President Thabo Mbeki, you told him that.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know that.

ADV VISSER: Do you say that you deny that you told him that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I deny, I don't know that.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman I am told by my attorney that I put one question incorrectly.  I'm sorry Mr Sehlwana, I retract that.  I put to you that you were present when the window was taken out. You were not present, you were quite correct in saying that, but what I have to put to you is that the purpose of the window that was taken out was explained to you in detail.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Is that question directed to me?

ADV VISSER: The question is directed to you yes. I'm correcting myself.  You were not present when the window was taken out, you already said so.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I said so, I was not present when the window was removed.

ADV VISSER: I put it to you that the evidence will be that it was carefully explained to you why the window had been removed.

CHAIRPERSON: You have already denied that.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I denied that I was, nobody explained to me about the window.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sehlwana, you told us yesterday that one of the people had his AK47 on his lap as you drove into the country.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I did explain that the one who was sitting at my back was the one who was putting his AK47 on his lap.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were the rest of the AK47's that were in the possession of the other people?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Maybe they put them in their bags.  I was in front they were coming behind me when we left Botswana, when we went to the combi.

CHAIRPERSON: And where were their bags?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They put them on their shoulders.

CHAIRPERSON: The AK47's in their bags, were they dismantled?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know as to whether they were disconnected.

CHAIRPERSON: Besides the AK47's, did they have any other firearms that you saw?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I only saw those AK47's when they were lying on the ground and the time when they were taking out the apples.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you jumped out of the combi, did you notice any tear gas canister being thrown into it?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No I didn't see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware that an inquest was held in respect of these deaths?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I understand that when a person dies the inquest is done, therefore it is true that the inquest was done.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you asked to make a statement for the purpose of an inquest?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No they didn't request me to make a statement.

CHAIRPERSON: What prompted you to make these disclosures, the disclosures about this incident.  May be, just a minute.  Well I suppose you have told us what you told us because you wanted to make an application for amnesty?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes that's true.  I was making an application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other reason why you decided to make all these revelations?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No there is no other reason.  The reason was that I was supposed to disclose because I saw many incidents were disclosed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Sehlwana I've only got one question, one aspect that I want you to clear up concerning the exercise that you had.  I'm not sure when this exercise took place.  Can you tell us, when was this incident exercised, rehearsed rather?.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: We did that demonstration or exercise the day before I went to pick (up) those people.

ADV VISSER: You're quite sure because I think it was put to you that it was the morning prior to you picking the six ANC cadres up, were you quite certain that it was the day before?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It is the day before I went to pick up those people, because the following day I left early in the morning at half past four.