Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Now I do understand. At the time there were people who stayed at Mrs Mbuyazi's house, people like Ben and Mandwengu who had been arrested at the time. Mr Nkunu testified in court that since these boys had been arrested the violence in Esikoweni had subsided. A meeting between Mrs Mbuyazi and Nthena was held and it was decided that this claim should be refuted. It was discussed that the kombi should be used to increase the number of people who would die at Esikoweni. Although I do not remember the places or the areas that we went to. But we did drive around J1, H2, around those areas and we were firing. If we met a person in those areas we shot at him or her. And it did indeed assist in proving that the violence in Esikoweni was not decreasing and in fact the boys ended up getting the bail because it became clear that they were not responsible for the violence in Esikoweni. That is what I remember.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, Mr Mkhize gave evidence of an incident where there was a murder of an ANC induna on the instructions of Chief Mataba, this is page 119. Do you remember Mr Mkhize giving that evidence?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I do remember.

MR STEWART: He said in his oral evidence, or he agreed with me, he said that you were not there. Do you remember?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is the truth. I was not there.

MR STEWART: So you were not involved in that incident?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I was not involved.

MR STEWART: And Mr Dlamini you will recall in the oral evidence of Mr Hlongwane, I am dealing now on page 200 paragraph 180. Mr Hlongwane spoke about an incident concerning certain pipe bombs and he said he was accompanied by Lucky Mbanthua and Tabela Thulu, do you remember that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I remember him saying that but I was not there, I was not present.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini that deals with the various incidents which you have been involved in which are in this, broadly speaking, this area around here, Esikoweni. So I take you back now to the incident of the murder of Nate Gumede. And after that some one was arrested which then caused some difficulties for your group. Do you remember that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I do remember.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) arrested?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Romeo Mbambo was arrested. Followed by Nthena Mkhize, then Israel Hlongwane.

MR STEWART: Do you know whether you were also being looked for, for that incident?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: That is correct. The police were seeking me high and low for this incident. But they could not get hold of me.

MR STEWART: What did you do to avoid this situation?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I called Ulundi and called M Z Khumalo. I told him that the situation in Esikoweni was very bad, two of our members had been arrested already. He was upset and concerned about this. And I told him that as I was speaking to him policemen were looking for me. He left Ulundi and travelled to Esikoweni. At that time I was working at the Empangeni IFP office where Mr M R Mkhize is also working. M Z Khumalo fetched me from this office and he took me to Port Shepston to a certain induna, whose name I cannot remember. He left me there.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) you mention that area as being Port Shepston, for the benefit of the committee is that much the same area as Mthaluni?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Mthaluni is under Port Shepston as far as I know.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) hidden there with this induna for some time, is that right?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I stayed there for a while. I would call Mr Khumalo and we would communicate. I called him on one day and he told me that the police had gotten information that I was hiding there. And he said I should come to the IFP head office in Durban. I did this, I left Mthaluni for Durban. On arrival there I found a car waiting for me. It was a white Sentra with an ND registration. It was driven by a Mr Ghazo, whom I did not know. This person Ghazo worked in the Johannesburg office under Themba Xhosa. We discussed with M Z Khumalo before I left and he told me that I should leave immediately because when I left Mthaluni he told me that I should bring all my belongings. So he asked me if I had my belongings and I said: "Yes sir." He took me to the car and he told Ghazo to take me to Themba Xhosa. In that way I travelled to Johannesburg.

MR STEWART: What position does or did Themba Xhosa hold at that time to your knowledge?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: He was a member of the central committee and he is now an MP.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) based in the Johannesburg area is that right?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Thereafter you did some work for Themba Xhosa including gun running and supplying of guns to hostels and so on. Is that right?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: We will not cover those incidents now in any detail. I will just leave it at that. Can you explain to the committee how it came about that you came to tell your whole story and how you came to be on a witness protection programme and subsequently to apply for amnesty?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Chairperson I would say that after a while after all these activities had occurred, whilst I was still in Johannesburg Mr Delatolo Nthuli came to me and he told me that there were programmes being launched, such programmes that were intended at reconciliation and he felt that as we were on the run from the police that it was time that the truth was exposed. That we should expose information on all our activities and he also explained what the Truth Commission was about. That I would not be arrested. I asked him because I had such hideous crimes: "Are you sure that I would not be arrested?" And he assured me that I would not be as long as I would tell the whole truth. I then agreed. In fact I asked them to give me a day to think about it. They left and returned on the following day. They asked me if I had made up my mind, if I was in or out. And I said after careful consideration I have decided to join in. I was then taken to the head of the ITU, Colonel Dodson. I contacted him from Johannesburg. We discussed about this matters at length. Discussing that which I should expose everything that I knew about. Because Dodson was the person who was investigating hit squad activities in KwaZulu Natal. I would say that is how I came to the witness protection programme.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) Themba Xhosa in Johannesburg did Themba Xhosa know that he came to speak to you and to persuade you to tell everything?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: No. (...indistinct) would have been killed had Themba Xhosa known that he had come to talk to me about this. Themba Xhosa did not know about it. I was the only person who knew about it. If I had told him myself I could have also been in danger. I removed all my belongings after talking to Matlanduna and left. Nobody knows how I left that place. I just removed all my belongings and got into the car and left.

MR STEWART: So you did not even say good bye to Themba Xhosa?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: No I did not. He just discovered that I was gone.

MR STEWART: And did you assist the ITU in their investigations including taking them and pointing out various places and so on?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I assisted them in identifying some of the places that we had worked in.

MR STEWART: And Mr Dlamini sitting there now looking back on all the things that you have been involved in and sitting here telling everyone about it what have you got to say about all those things to the people who are here, many of whom were affected by your activities?