Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, it was not the policy of the ANC to kill children.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Mr Sardiwalla?  In the nature of the attacks that occurred in your area, launched by the IFP on your members, were children not attacked?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I never came across such a child being murdered by the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: And, was there never an occasion when members of your organisation attacked children of IFP members?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It never happened that my members attacked children.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had a clear understanding that, when you launched attacks, you were never to direct such attacks on children of your opponents?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, we knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sardiwalla, you may proceed.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you, Chairperson.  So, you had absolutely no knowledge, neither did you suspect that there would be children in that vehicle?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I did not know.

MR SARDIWALLA: Did you believe that Makeke would be in that vehicle?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I had that belief.

MR SARDIWALLA: And your intention was to actually destroy Makeke?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR SARDIWALLA: Did you do this clearly to further the
aspirations of your organisation and the struggle that you were involved in, or did you do it out of your own free whims and fancies?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I did it following the policy of the organisation, to protect my organisation.

MR SARDIWALLA: Chairperson, that is our evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SARDIWALLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sardiwalla.
Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions to pose?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair, I do.  Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Mr Zulu, when the attacking question on the 2nd of March 1993 occurred, where were you staying?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was staying at my sister's house.

MS THABETHE: When I say where, which area were you staying?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: At eNkanyezini.

MS THABETHE: Is that part of Maqonqo, or let me ask it this way, was it part of Maqonqo or was it outside Maqonqo?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It is close to Maqonqo.

MS THABETHE: How close would you say this place is from Maqonqo in terms of kilometres?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was just a fence separating the two areas.

MS THABETHE: Would it be correct for me to say Maqonqo was a big area at kwaMapumolo wherein there were different villages within Maqonqo.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And one of these places was a place called Mboyi.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Did your family or maybe to be more precise, did your father and your brothers stay at Mboyi?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And would I be correct if I say that Mboyi was plus minus 5 kilometres from Maqonqo?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I would agree with you.

MS THABETHE: Now, in your affidavit you have indicated that Mr Gcabashe, Chief Sabelo Gcabashe was Induna at Maqonqo.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you refer us to the page and the exact paragraph?

MS THABETHE: I will do that just now Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That's page 3, paragraph 6.7.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair, I am indebted to you.
Mr Zulu you say in paragraph 6.7, it's page 3 of your affidavit, that Chief Sabelo Gcabashe was an IFP leader in the area.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Isn't it correct that he was actually an IFP leader at Maqonqo and not at Mboyi?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: That is one area, that is Mboyi and Maqonqo.

MS THABETHE: Why I am asking you this question, it's because my instructions are that Chief Sabelo Gcabashe was a leader at Maqonqo and at Mboyi there was another leader there.  If the Committee could bear with me, I am looking for his name here in my notes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying, Ms Thabethe, that Chief Gcabashe was a leader, an IFP leader at Maqonqo and that there was another IFP leader at Mboyi?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair, that's the evidence I'm trying to ascertain.  Did you know about this?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, I only knew of Sabelo.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, if you can allow me just to get the name of the leader, please. Thanks.  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Did you know that Mr Bernard Mkhize was the leader at the Mboyi area?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I did not know it.

MS THABETHE: Would you dispute this fact?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I would dispute it because that was something I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you dispute something that you don't know?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I dispute it because I was around there but I never heard that he was an IFP leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Bernard Mkhize the same person as you have referred to as your brother?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If he was an IFP leader, as opposed to being an IFP member, you would have known as his relative, would you not?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I would have known.

CHAIRPERSON: So it should be something that would be within your personal knowledge, whether he was a leader at Mboyi, or if he wasn't.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I would have known if he was a leader.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was not, to your knowledge, a leader of the IFP at Mboyi?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, as far as I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever stay at Mboyi?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you stay at Mboyi?  Which year?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: From my childhood until 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have information as to when Mr Mkhize, Bernard Mkhize, became an IFP leader at Mboyi?

MS THABETHE: Not with me Madam Chair, but I can get that information because Mr Mkhize is present today, if the Committee can allow me quickly to get that information.  Thank you Madam Chair.  My instructions from Mr Mkhize is that he was a leader as from 1990 whilst the applicant was still residing at Mboyi.
	Mr Zulu, Mr Mkhize has actually indicated that he was a leader of the IFP at Mboyi from 1990 and you were still residing there during 1990, so do you still maintain that he was not a leader of the IFP?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I still maintain that I did not know that he was an IFP leader.

MS THABETHE: Is it also correct that Maqonqo was an IFP area, or the people living there were IFP?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, at that time it was inhabited by the IFP because ANC members had left the area.

MS THABETHE: Which area did ANC members stay in?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: ANC members fled to Edendale.  They returned when they wanted to claim their houses and property and then they went to reside at eNkanyezini.

MS THABETHE: When did this happen would you say?  During which period, when the ANC members fled to Edendale?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Around 1988.

MS THABETHE: You see, I am trying to ascertain, because in your affidavit at page 4 paragraph 6.9 you state that the members of IFP attacked the kraals of the ANC members in the area and my instructions are that there were no ANC members in the area and further my instructions are that there was no area which could be called an ANC area.  So, can you explain paragraph 6.9 to me?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you reading that paragraph in conjunction with paragraph 6.2 which specifically tells you which area he is talking of at Maqonqo?

MS THABETHE: Can I have your question again, Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm saying, are you reading the paragraph that you have referred him to in conjunction with paragraph 6.2?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: This area seems to be Table Mountain which is within Maqonqo.

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.  I am not sure if I understand you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm saying, are you aware that what he is saying is that his area was Table Mountain in Maqonqo?

MS THABETHE: Which area would he be talking about Madam Chair?