Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-12-08

MR WILLS: Thank you Madam Chair, I am not aware of the exact dates when it was disbanded, but I believe, I know that the position is that as far as, at least in August and even further than that, September 1992, I know from my previous evidence in other applications, that certain persons in the ANC from Northern Natal for example, under the then Chairperson, Mr Bheki Ntuli, certainly went down to the Transkei to receive further military training to deal with problems that they were experiencing of the nature of which you have heard in that last application with the Caprivi trainees, so I think that, you know without being too specific Madam Chair, it would be my submission that there may have been a reduction in the sort of formal hostilities, but there were still at that stage, a lot of mistrust between the various parties.
	Operation Vula for example was planned and was operating I think, I cannot remember the date, but clearly there was a lot of mistrust between what the police were actually doing and what the South African government's apartheid Security Forces were doing, and there were certainly counter-action taken by military structures, even in the formation of the SDU's which I think went well beyond in fact, 1994.

MR LAX: We are familiar with the SDU issue, which is clearly in terms of another whole policy, and MK was specifically not acting qua MK in relation to the SDU's, they were simply there as trainers and support staff.    The simple issue is, my recollection is that MK specifically disbanded.  There were elements that continued to serve a civil protection function, more within the SDU kind of scenario than within the formal MK structures, and that is my recollection from a number of cases.  There was the training that was taking place, but that wasn't training of people who had already been trained, that was training of people who were new.

MR WILLS: I cannot dispute that, possibly the way out of this Madam Chair, is to ask him exactly what he was doing at that particular time, in his role as MK commander.  I think the evidence is quite, well, I don't know, if it is clear, but the inference from the evidence on record so far is that it wasn't a particularly active role, but possibly we can, if the Committee so requires, more information can be sought in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the evidence is not quite clear to us as a panel.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether Mr Sambo is saying that he was still actively involved in his capacity as the overall commander of the MK structure at Umkomaas.

MR WILLS: Yes, possibly I can take that issue further if you so wish.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLS: I must admit, it was an oversight on my part.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will allow you to take it up when you re-examine.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Sambo?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Sambo, my recollection of Mr O'Farrell's evidence is that a number of people attacked him.  Who were those people?  Previously you denied that he was attacked at all, but who were those people?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: O'Farrell was attacked by ANC supporters.   If I remember very well, I think I explained in my statement that this happened ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, you didn't explain Mr Sambo, we need you to explain now.  Don't tell us that you explained something when you didn't.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: When O'Farrell came back with the ambulance, there were people there, neighbours and school children.   This is the time when I was on the tar road, the main road, and it is the time when Mr O'Farrell came back with the ambulance.  Because when he first ran away to the mealie field, he took something like five to ten minutes, and he came back with the ambulance, and people were around the vicinity, these are the people who attacked him.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly that the people assembled after he had run away?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, they came after they heard the gunshot.

MR LAX: Where were you when he was being assaulted?  Did you observe it?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: At that time, I was dizzy and  I was sitting down at the main road, the tar road and it was blank in my mind.  This is the time when he was being attacked, even though I didn't see it clearly.

MR LAX: But you knew about it?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I knew about it.  I knew that he was being attacked.

MR LAX: Yes, so why was this denied previously?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I thought you were saying that O' Farrell was attacked before he came back with the ambulance, when I took the gun from van der Spuy, this is what I disputed.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Lax wants to know is that he doesn't want to know why you didn't tell about this exactly the same way as you are telling today.  If you will remember very well when you were here initially when you were asked as to whether O' Farrell was beaten and attacked by people, you said no, he was not.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Maybe I didn't quite understand the question as you are asking it now.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't understand the question very well?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: I will refresh your memory, if one looks at page 441 of the record, Ms Thabethe who was the Evidence Leader at the time, said to you
"... do you recall that a small group of people consisting of approximately six persons including your brother, attacked Mr O'Farrell?   (Your answer was) That is a blue lie, I don't know anything about that.  During the occurrence of this incident, was there such a group of persons?  (You say) I don't have any information of such."
	So it then goes on from the Chairperson to say -
"... Did you not at any stage material to this incident, witness a small group of persons who gathered at and around the scene?  I didn't see any people, except for two."
	It goes on and on, the bottom line is you denied emphatically that Mr O'Farrell was attacked at all.  Why did you do that in your evidence and now you are admitting that he was attacked?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I didn't want to implicate too many people, because this was my crime and I didn't want to implicate others.

MR LAX: Well, aren't you here to tell the truth, Mr Sambo?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I am here for that.

MR LAX: And doesn't the truth implicate other people who were there and who were involved?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: That is why initially I told you that there were things that I couldn't understand of the proceedings of the TRC and I didn't have full information as to what I was supposed to divulge and what I was supposed not to.

MR LAX: Mr Sambo, you knew you had to tell the truth when you came here, isn't that so?  You took an oath to tell the truth, isn't that so?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: That is so.

MR LAX: What else that Mr O'Farrell says that you have denied, shouldn't you have denied if you want to tell us the full truth?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I don't quite understand your question.

MR LAX: Well, is there anything else that you have denied in the past, in your previous evidence, are there any other lies that you have told us that you now want to undo?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it is so.

MR LAX: What lies are those?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is that I didn't want to implicate too many people because I was scared that people may be arrested if they were going to be questioned about this, that they were the ones who attacked Mr O'Farrell when he came back with the ambulance.

MR LAX: Now, what were your duties as a commander of MK in the area at that time?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Instructions from  my superiors to the other MK members, this will be conveyed to me and then I will distribute this information to the MK members.

MR LAX: Yes, what instructions?  What instructions?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Sometimes these instructions involved us guarding meetings and rallies of the ANC.

MR LAX: Yes, what else?