Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR NGUBANE: Now at what stage did you then decide to kill in order to achieve a political objective?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, this was the once and only time that I was involved with an unarmed man.

MR NGUBANE: Did you decide to kill for political reasons when Taylor gave you instructions to kill?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, my understanding is that my political objective was to uphold the South African Government, keep them in power, and that was my political objective in killing Mr Bhila.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, that's what I want to clarify.  At what stage did you reach that point that you could kill in order to achieve a political objective?

FRANK MCCARTER: I'm afraid I can't say at what stage I reached that.

MR NGUBANE: Now the Border Gate incident, that involved Raap Britz and Sergeant Xhosa, how would you describe the relationship between you and them, were they your friends or just your colleagues or your acquaintances?

FRANK MCCARTER: I'd been passing through that border post for many years whilst schooling and they were well-known to me, I wouldn't say they were friends but they were well-known to me and I think it was the fact that they had been wounded and it was people that were well-known to me.

MR NGUBANE: And did you feel like avenging on their behalf?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, no, it was just a shock to me that brought the ANC and liberation movements into perspective.

MR NGUBANE: Now when you say at page 37
"This incident had a great influence on my life."
Are you only referring to shock?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, that people were now prepared to kill policemen.

MR NGUBANE: But shock, doesn't it occur for a short while and then you are over it?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I would say that was, it was an eye opener to me but I wouldn't say that that was the catalyst in me killing Mr Bhila, by no manner of means.

MR NGUBANE: And didn't you feel that the people that had attacked your colleagues had to be dealt with in some form or another?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, no, at that stage I'd just joined the police, I was 19 years old.  I didn't have an opinion as to how other than the lawful arrest and incarceration.

MR NGUBANE: Now coming to the order by Mr Taylor, I didn't get you quite clearly, what was the order given to you by Mr Taylor?

FRANK MCCARTER: It was to kill Mr Bhila.

MR NGUBANE: For what reason?

FRANK MCCARTER: The fact that he'd been part of terrorist cell, that he'd been acquitted on terrorism charges and that he was likely to go back and resume his activities.

MR NGUBANE: And you being an ordinary policeman not full of avenge, you just decided to join in that conspiracy to kill?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman, this - a decision to kill someone isn't taken lightly but due to the propaganda over all the years and that sort of thing, one's enemies were dehumanised and it wasn't - one didn't look at them as people but as an enemy.  That is now speaking about members of the liberation movement.

MR NGUBANE: Well according to you earlier evidence, that occurred when Taylor told you, you started regarding these people as - you started thinking that you could matter at the time when Taylor told you about that, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, up until that time I'd been involved in probably 80+ contacts with the enemy, I'd been wounded, and if they were prepared to shoot at me I was prepared to shoot back and I did kill people in the course of my duties.

MR NGUBANE: In the course of duties before the murder of Bhila, had you been involved in some other murders?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman, no murders.

MR NGUBANE: Now when Taylor told you that you should go and ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Excuse me, Mr Ngubane, I'm not sure that I understand this question.  Did you not say this was the only murder that you were involved in, an unarmed man?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, that's the only murder I was involved in.

MR MALAN: Your answer was "up until the Bhila incident you weren't involved in any murders", but that wasn't the question, the question was whether you had been involved in killings.

FRANK MCCARTER: Can I just - can we look at the record there because I understood that he asked me when I was prepared to kill.

MR MALAN: That's exactly, prepared to kill was the question.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, it's a very ambiguous question that because kill in the line of duty or murder.  There's two different things here, can I just get some clarity on it?

MR MALAN: No, Mr McCarter, based on your evidence you murdered Mr Bhila in the line of duty, that was your understanding at the time, that's what you told us, that is the basis of your application.

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, but he was unarmed.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.
	Are you suggesting that all the killings before Bhila, the Bhila incident, were done on armed people?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: I think it's common cause that Vlakplaas is notorious for killing political activists who were unarmed, are you seriously suggesting that during your stay at Vlakplaas you never killed anyone unarmed?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Now this was the first incident when you were going to kill someone who was unarmed, Taylor had told you that you should kill this man, you were an innocent policeman at that time, did you ask for greater details from Mr Taylor why this man should be killed?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman, I took his word for it.

MR NGUBANE: Just on scanty details, you being a policeman who had never killed an innocent man, decided to kill?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I had a vague background of the trial and the circumstances, so it wasn't as if I was running completely uninformed.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, if you say vague, how vague were they, just tell us the details of the trial which you got from, those vague details which you got from Mr Taylor.

FRANK MCCARTER: I've mentioned it there, Mr Chairman, that Mr Bhila was an accused in the Ramlakan - or I always understood it as the Ramlakan but I think it involved, he was called Buthelezi and he was acquitted there.

MR NGUBANE: But the Ramlakan case is not similar to the Sanlam Centre in Amanzimtoti, isn't it?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, as I understood it, it was part of one cell.  Mr Zondo was trial'd apart, separately from the others.

MR NGUBANE: Well my question is not, is that those are two different incidents, do you agree?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: So the Ramlakan incident and the Sanlam Centre bombing are one and the same thing, is that your evidence?

FRANK MCCARTER: They're linked, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Just answer my question, don't evade.  There's a difference between something that's linked to another and there's a difference between the one and the same thing, you know that.  Is the Ramlakan incident and the Amanzimtoti bombing one and the same thing?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, as I said, they were part of one unit, that's Andrew Zondo and the Ramlakan group.  However for expediency's sake I understand that that was why the trial of Andrew Zondo was separated from the others.

MR NGUBANE: Let's get it straight now.  When Taylor told you, did he tell you that this man Bhila was involved in something that was linked to Amanzimtoti or he said that this man was involved in the bombing of Amanzimtoti?

FRANK MCCARTER: He was involved in, linked up to the thing, he wasn't involved in the bombing, the actual bombing was done solely by Andrew Zondo.

MR NGUBANE: Now in your application, page 33, why didn't you come out clearly?  The first line you say
"Sipho Bhila was an accused in a trial involving the bomb incident at the Sanlam Centre in Amanzimtoti."
Why didn't you come out clearly as to the reason why this man had to be eliminated?