Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1999-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlavane?

MR DLAVANE: Chairperson, I will not be calling any witness on the side of Mr Modisane. We are ready to proceed with applicant number 2 if you so permit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. Mr Mogale, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MR MOGALE: (sworn and states)

MR DLAVANE: Mr Mogale, you are here seeking amnesty for the same occurrence that your co-applicant here, Mr Modisane, is seeking amnesty for. You and Mr Modisane were colleagues in the former Bophuthatswana Defence Force. Is that correct?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MR DLAVANE: Are you able to describe for the Committee what were your duties in the Defence Force by then?

MR MOGALE: In the Defence Force I was working in the same office with Sergeant Major Timothy Pirie. I was helping to keep the register, that is the term we used in the Defence Force and even those who were going off duty, I was helping Timothy Pirie with their leave forms.

MR DLAVANE: Now we, the Committee, heard from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was your rank?

MR MOGALE: It was private, that means I was without a rank.

MR DLAVANE: We, the Committee heard from Mr Modisane that a coup did in fact take place on the particular day of the 10th February 1988. Can you describe for the Committee what was your role in this coup? What did you do, yourself being Mr Mogale, on that particular day when this coup was taking place?

MR MOGALE: I went to Mr Ntsime's house. I don't know as well should I start from the beginning? The way it happened?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, start from the beginning.

MR MOGALE: The overthrow of the government started when the people were not satisfied. That's when I began to be a member of the Defence Force. I took an oath that I would serve the community and I would work for the community. That is why when Mr Pirie, Timothy Pirie, stated that the community is not satisfied. Then I was seeing, I was experiencing that and I heard that and I accepted what he was saying.
	Mr Pirie informed us about those dissatisfaction that there was a person from exile called ...(indistinct) that person used to deal with diamonds to take them to overseas and secondly, the killing of donkeys. Then the political instability that other political parties or movements were not allowed to operate within Bophuthatswana. It is only his party which is allowed to hold gatherings.
	Again, within the Defence Force there was a person who was a former member of the South African Defence Force. The way, he was so old, he was even afraid to sleep because he was afraid to die. My section was ...(indistinct) in the house of that particular person.
	He explained to us how cars were taken to Germany and then before they those cars would come to Bophuthatswana they were broken. Those cars were buried behind the camp, that was the explanation from Mr Pirie.
	I am not able, I am not able to explain all those reasons because there were so many. Mr Pirie explained on the night that the operation would start any time. At 9 o'clock he met with us and what he wanted at that meeting, he wanted us to whether is Mr Mangope present or was he ill overseas, or was he in Botswana.
	His investigation found out that Mr Pirie was present in the ministers' complex. After he heard that statement, we ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mangope, I think it came across that Mr Pirie was in the ministers' complex. I think you mean Mr Mangope, the President. Yes, continue.

MR MOGALE: Yes, that is Mr Mangope was in the ministers' complex.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we're not getting the translation coming through. So the last we've got was that it was established the ministers ...