Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, your attention was drawn to the fact that when you engaged yourselves in discussions with Mr McBride about Mr Buthelezi, it was after the incident that is after the massacre of the 9 people and Mr Buthelezi was one of the 9 which was massacred, do you agree to that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes sir, I agree with that.  The mistake that I made was to say that I met with Mr McBride.  I did not personally talk to Mr McBride, I was in the hospital, injured.

MR MAPOMA: [inaudible], perhaps if I can put your question in the negative.  Mr Sonti, you didn't raise the matter with the ANC structure outside the SDU, is that correct?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No sir, I did not.

MR MAPOMA: Within your structure, the SDU, in other words, the SDU under which you were operating did not raise the problems of the ANC Youth League with the ANC structure outside the SDU, is that correct?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Please repeat your question sir.

MR MAPOMA: I am saying, not necessarily you as an individual but your SDU structure did not raise the problem of the ANC Youth League with the ANC organisation outside the SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I understand sir.  I cannot be certain if I had been there at the time I would have some knowledge.  Unfortunately I was already injured at the time.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Motlopo said during the 1993 December, it was a stage where the IFP were in the hostels and in the townships, the IFP was not there?  What do you say on that, about Mr Buthelezi?  Being aligned with the IFP?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Please repeat your question sir, I don't understand.

MR MAPOMA: During 1993, December, the evidence that has been lead, given by Mr Motlopo, is that at that stage, the IFP were staying in the hostels and in the townships, including Moleleki, it was predominantly ANC who was staying there, do you agree with that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I do agree about that matter even though the Inkatha was hiding at Moleleki Extension 2 because that area was predominantly an ANC area.

MR MOTATA: [inaudible] say Mr Sonti that despite the question put to you, Inkatha did not completely get out of Moleleki, they were still within the township, am I hearing you to say that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The Inkatha was there sir during this time.  It was hiding behind the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying there were Inkatha members who were operating under the banner of the ANC?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That's what I'm trying to say sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now, let's come again to Mr McBride.  After the incident, Mr McBride was reported in one of the newspapers as having said that a gang who called themselves the SDU's in Moleleki killed the  members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MADASA: Sorry Mr Chair.  Mr Chair I oppose this question.  My learned friend is quoting an extract from a newspaper purportedly information from Mr McBride and that is heresy Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, this is [no interpretation] and I can get his perspective of what that report was saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, the problem with that is that that information which my learned friend is quoting from, the extract, it's untested, nobody knows the accuracy thereof, it could be inaccurate.  Now there's a possibility that inaccurate information is being put to the witness for him to comment on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well as I understand the purpose of the question, he's simply asking the witness either to confirm that what Mr McBride is reported as having said is accurate or not.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand that?

MR MADASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still persist in your objection?

MR MADASA: No, I leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Sonti, I just need your comment on the report where Mr McBride is reported to have said that a gang calling themselves SDU's killed the members of the ANC Youth League in Moleleki, after the incident.

MR MOTATA: Before you respond to that Mr Sonti I would request Mr Mapoma to indicate which newspaper probably you came across that, let's not said it was reported, let's know which paper it was reported in.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  In the City Press.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that included in the bundle of documents that we have?

MR MAPOMA: No Chairperson it is not in the bundle of documents but it appears in the Police docket.

CHAIRPERSON: Well refer us to the page.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, unfortunately the Police docket itself is not numbered but I do have a page appearing in the Police docket.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be the document that is dated December 12 1993?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: A report by a certain Moses Mamila?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, the part that you're putting to the witness, what part of that cutting, which paragraph?

MR MAPOMA: The second paragraph from the bottom Chairperson, which reads,
"The clash was reported to Mr Robert McBride of the ANC peace desk who confirmed to City Press that a group of armed people were fighting ANC youth and civic leaders."
It goes on to say,
"But he denied that they could be defined as members of the SDU."

CHAIRPERSON: Now who could not be defined as members of the SDU?

MR MAPOMA: I take it that it is the group which he refers to.  The group of armed people.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does that appear?

MR MAPOMA: Can I get your question Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay well put the question.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Sonti, there is a report in the City Press.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it to you this way.  Mr Sonti we're being referred to an article which is dated December 12, 1993 which is said to be an excerpt from the City Press of that date which quotes Mr Robert McBride of the ANC peace desk as having confirmed, firstly that a group of armed people were fighting ANC youth and the civic leaders.  Is that the first part?
	He's now relating to the - he's referring to the killing of the deceased and the [inaudible] presumably.  He says a group - well he's quoted as having said a group of armed people were fighting ANC youth and the civic leaders and then he is reported as having gone on to say they could not be described - he denied that they could be defined as members of the SDU.  Presumably the reference here is the reference to this group of armed men.  What do you say to that?  Would that be an accurate description of the group as you understood the position then?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I dispute that sir.

MR MAPOMA: What is the accurate position?

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] is as described by the witness, namely that they were members of the SDU who - they were members of the SDU.  Is that right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: Thanks Chairperson.   Now Mr Sonti I just want to have your comment.  The ANC Youth League members who were there in Moleleki, during that time, some of whom were captured and released are going to deny that Mr Buthelezi was a member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Give us the names of those persons please.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Please repeat your question sir.

MR MAPOMA: Jabulani Nomalo and Tusanang.  Unfortunately [inaudible] but Tusanang featured prominently in his evidence.  They are going to deny that Mr Buthelezi was a member of the IFP or a supporter of the IFP.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already said sir, we according to our perceptions and those of the people that you have just mentioned and all the things that they did, they are talking nonsense.  For example, Jabulani Nomalo, if I am not mistaken, he's from Seluma section.  We are talking about a matter pertaining to Moleleki extension 2.  Please investigate this properly.  Jabulani Nomalo is from Seluma.

MR MAPOMA: Now, you dispute that Jabulani Nomalo is whom you captured?