Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Zuma.  If he might just be sworn in please Mr Chairman.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: (sworn states)

INTERPRETER: You have to press the button on your mike when speaking.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Zuma, is it correct that you hail from the Richmond area and that you also stayed there during June 1991?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: In what area did you specifically stay in Richmond during 1991?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: At Nkobeni, just above Nkobeni.

MR DE KLERK: During 1991, what was your age?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't remember well, I would say I was about twenty four or twenty five.

MR DE KLERK: Where you a member of the IFP at that stage?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Is it correct that you were brought up in the traditional Zulu way - that means that you believed in a traditional Zulu values and that you further believed in the culture in a sense of your forefathers and muti and so forth?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: Did you go to school?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, up to standard five.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you leave the school at standard five?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Because we were many children  at school, attending school at home  and my mother couldn't afford to send us to school.

MR DE KLERK: Were your parents, were they also IFP supporters?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

MR DE KLERK: You have listened to all the evidence that was given by your co-applicant in this matter, can you tell this Commission in your own words, what happened on the 23rd of June 1991.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: It was on the 23rd of June 1991 - ANC members attacked our place. As a person who was standing about the place, I could soon have a feeling and I had my whistle which we had to blow when we got attacked.

ADV POTGIETER: I will just ask you to go a little bit slower so we can write down what you say so just give a pause after each sentence please.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: As I was staying on the high area I could see them coming, they were shouting.  I knew most of them because I grew up with them and we used to pass their place.  They were shouting at me saying Vusi we were coming there therefore I had to blow the whistle because I knew they were coming in and they were armed and there were many.  I told the other young boys to blow the whistles and we blew the whistles.
	I started running downhill because I was afraid I was going to be injured.  They came downhill and they started shooting towards our direction.  We started running downwards and we happened to assemble and we became many in numbers.  They shot one person Behkani Mkune if I remember well, yes it was Behkani Mkune.  After shooting at us they started running because that's how they used to do, they used to attack and run away.  
	After their retreat we sat down and tried to discuss as to what we're going to do.  We couldn't come at the same time so this is what we have to do, however one of our colleagues came out and said we should go and pay revenge.  
	After some time, at about half past five - as the area is a very strange area we have to go via the river and pass through passages and we knew it would take time -  we sit down and discussed this is how we're going to do it. One of a ...(intervention)

ADV POTGIETER: Just be a little bit slower in your evidence, you're going very, very fast.  Please go a little bit slower.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Bangi instructed us that or suggested that we should fight back and we all agreed with him.  We used to be armed in most cases.  We waited for some time and at about 5, because it looked as if it was going to rain and it was winter, we decided to cross and go towards their direction  Tabudeni.
	When we arrived at Tabudeni at the grounds we sat there because we knew that most people who were staying in that particular place - because most of the people who were staying next to area on the downhill have already vacated the place and they were running away.  We were about seventeen.   While we were still hiding somewhere there, one boy from the Dlamini family came out of the house - we could see because there was some moonlight and we could see that there was someone standing there and we started running towards that Dlamini place and we surrounded the house.  The boy ran away after one shot was fired.  
	I was thinking that the house was used as a camp because I heard some gunshots and people with me were shooting, myself I was holding a spear and some bolts.  I didn't manage to get into the house.  We were all competing to get in an attack.  When others got in I heard some women shouting from within the house and I got so afraid when I discovered that there were women inside the house.  I never intended to attack women.
	After these people were injured we continued with our journey.  We continued - I thought we attacked women and men or men only but when arrived in court I found that we also attacked women.  We went to another family which I couldn't identify - we found three young boys in the house.  We attacked and stabbed them in the house, we stabbed them.  
	I went outside and saw it through the window because some didn't die instantly - we wanted to kill them because we knew that these were the people who were attacking us.  Others might have ran away after hearing some gun sounds below.  After killing these three we passed to another family and we find women, there was a woman and her children.  I told the other comrades that they shouldn't kill the women because they've already killed some and I was warning them that they shouldn't kill them and therefore we have to leave the women in that particular house so we divided and the others had to go via another bush and we took the other way.
	We happened to meet the women who were running away.  After seeing us they started running.  I was in front and I heard the women crying.  It looks as if they were attacked.  I had to run back and go back and tell them that they mustn't attack them because it looked as though those were the people who passed and decided not to attack.  That's where one child was attacked.
	I told them that they shouldn't kill the women and the children because the people who we were targeting were ANC young men, whom we intended to go and attack.  We're not killing women, we're killing young men.  I intended to kill these ANC young men, members because those were the people who were attacking us.  	
	We took the young child to another family.  I don't know to whom the family belonged but we left the child there and we continued to a place called Ndaleni.  We arrived at ...(inaudible) Sadam.  We were going by to check whether there were some other IFP members.  Sadam told me that we should go up to Kwambonga's  place as maybe the people might be meeting there.
	They said Kwambonga, I didn't know the place so we continued, we went to some ...(inaudible) and we surrounded the house.  When we listened through the windows, we could hear some people inside who were laughing.  I suspected that they were happy because they think they have attacked us and killed us.  We started to - we hit the door  - there was a ..(indistinct) in the door and we used it to hack the door.  The door opened and we shot at the people and we also stabbed them with the spears and the bolts - one of them died instantly next to the rondawel.  That was the person who had these multiple stab wounds because he was stabbed by most of the people.
	Some of the people died right inside the house, some managed to jump out through the windows and run away.  After that we thought we killed all of them.  After some time we left them and continued to Mtusi's place because we ran out of ammunition.  Mtusi was one of our IFP member at Ndalene and we went to him to ask for ammunition.  He gave us eight.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, don't you want to ...(inaudible) to intervene at this time to take a break for lunch.