Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-28

MR KINCAID: And this meeting, Jimmy, was it similarly attended by the youth of the townships?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, everyone, even the elderly people were there, they also attended the meeting.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy, you say that it was decided that the farmers were to be intimidated, but if necessary weapons were to be taken from them, was it envisaged that violence would be used in taking their meetings?  Did the meeting foresee the possibility that those who went on these excursions would have to resort to violence to dispossess the farmers of their arms?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: There was no plan in advance as to how to repossess the arms, we just took this whole thing easy and we just anticipated that they would just give us the weapons and leave.  We did not have any plan in advance, any planning.

MR KINCAID: So did you foresee that you may have to use violence in taking the arms in advance?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, we did anticipate that.

MR KINCAID: Was the mandate given by this meeting, this community meeting, Jimmy, that you should kill the farmers or was your conduct to fall short of such a violent and drastic means?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: There was no such a mandate to kill the farmers.

MR KINCAID: Were there any other specific details given?  Who was elected, who was chosen to go and attack the farmers, how were you organised, were there leaders of the groups that went there?  Were there any such details given to you by the meeting?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: This information transpired during the roadblocks and we would just decide who takes this direction and who takes that, there was no specific detail as to what was going to happen.

MR KINCAID: Did you organise yourselves into groups?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Mr Chairperson, I'm not quite sure what the habit of the Committee is, whether you intend taking the 11 o'clock adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Quarter past, eleven fifteen.

MR KINCAID: I'm indebted to you, Mr Chairman.
	Now you've said on a number of occasions that the reason that you involved the farmers was to dispossess them of their firearms, to intimidate them off their lands and to remove them as a source of assistance to the Security Police.  Do you confirm that?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR KINCAID: In June of 1992, Jimmy, you and your fellow applicants were convicted in the High Court of criminal acts arising out of what were essentially five different incidents, can you confirm that?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I do confirm.

MR KINCAID: The first incident, Jimmy, concerned an attack on the farm of Mr Hansel, who lived on the farm Greenlands near Stutterheim.  Can you tell the Committee how many of you were involved in the attack on the farm Greenlands?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I can tell.

MR KINCAID: How many were involved, Jimmy?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: It was quite a large number of us.

MR KINCAID: At the trial there were seven of you who stood arraigned in these charges.  The group that attacked Mr Hansel, did it consist of more than just seven of you?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, the group was more than seven.

MR KINCAID: Can you give a number to this group Jimmy, more-or-less, I realise it happened a long time ago.

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We were more than 50.  It was quite a large number because we would relieve each group.  We were making shifts, we were doing shifts.  The others would go and sleep and the others would be on duty.  That is when this idea of going to Mr Hansel's farm came.

MR KINCAID: Were some of your group involved with maintaining roadblocks, or the number of 50 that you mentioned, are you suggesting that all 50 attackers went to the farm Greenlands that night?  Can you elaborate more on the shift system that was in place?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I think 30-something people went to Mr Hansel, but I cannot tell as to the exact number, but the house was not full.  Mr Hansel's house was not full of us.

MR KINCAID: I see.  Now you were there, Jimmy, is that correct?  You were part of the group who attacked Mr Hansel?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: What was taken from Mr Hansel?  Were you successful in attacking him and achieving the objectives of your mission?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We found a firearm and the arm uniform we took it and the boots that are used in the army, we took it with.

MR KINCAID: You found a firearm and you took his military uniform, what was the need for taking his military uniform?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We were going to wear this uniform so as to disguise when we meet with the other soldiers and that would make it easy for us to get at them.

MR KINCAID: You didn't kill Mr Hansel, Jimmy?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: No, we did not kill him.

MR KINCAID: The judge found that Mr Hansel was assaulted and robbed of his shotgun and other items mentioned in an annexure to the charge sheet, Jimmy, which - if I may just take you through it.  What was removed from Mr Hansel's farm residence was a shotgun with ammunition, also removed were a radio, an alarm clock, a wrist watch, four pairs of men's trousers, four pairs of men's shoes, three men's shirts, a tie, two double-bed sheets, a table cloth, two torches, keys, cheque book.  Not all of these items, Jimmy, were weapons, some of them were just normal household contents.  Can you first of all dispute that these items were in fact taken from Mr Hansel?  Can you answer that question firstly, do we dispute that these items were taken?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I will dispute that because I never saw anyone taking such items and I cannot say they were not taken because sometimes if there is a large group of people, people would steal privately without other people seeing, but on my side I did not see any such items being taken by the people.

MR KINCAID: So I understand your evidence to be that although you didn't see anyone take any of these items, other than the weapons,  you can't dispute that someone of this large group of attackers may well have taken it?  And what you tell the Committee is that you most definitely didn't take any of the items which were not weapons.

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Mr Hansel, was he injured by you, Jimmy, did you injure him?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I did hit him.

MR KINCAID: Why did you hit him, Jimmy?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: It is because he was not willing to give us the weapons that we were looking for.

MR KINCAID: Is that the only reason why you hit him, Jimmy, it wasn't because of a hatred of Mr Hansel, it wasn't because of spite or ill will, was it Jimmy?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We did not have any hatred because he was such a good person and even in our community he was a favoured person.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Kincaid.
	Can I ask you to explain that, what do you mean when you say:
"Mr Hansel was a good person in the community"

MR KINCAID: Advocate Sandi, is that question directed to me or to the applicant?

ADV SANDI: To the applicant, sorry.

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I mean that at least he was not against the people and we would even go to his farm and buy milk and he would even come to our community because he used to know people there.

ADV SANDI: How did you hit him?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I hit him with a fist, I even kicked him.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Kincaid.

MR KINCAID: Thank you, Advocate Sandi.
	Where is the farm Greenlands, Jimmy, in relation to the Kabusi township?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: It is just next to our residential area.  The only - there's only a road, one road, the road to King William's Town that is between his farm and our residential area.  It is so near.