Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR KAHANOVITZ: I will read to you the questions which were put to you and the responses that you provided.  They asked you if there were any other projects that you were involved in, the question was
"With the exception of Early Learning Centre, what other projects were there?"
and your response was:
"There as a factory in Heinz Road, it was a printing press."
and then the man asked:
"Esquire Press?"
and your answer was:
"I think that was the name.  I simply burnt the place down."
Do you recall that answer?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember what I said to them.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your comment on what was read out to you by Mr Kahanovitz?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Chairperson, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You see you can listen to the actual tape if you want to, but this is a transcript of what's on the tape.  What do you say to that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember whether I said anything to him about Esquire or whatever.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Let me make this easy for you, did you set fire to any printing press?  Forget about the name.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not that I can recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you forget if you had burnt down a printing press?

ISGAK HARDIEN: If I burnt something down I would have remembered doing so, because it would have been something that I did.

CHAIRPERSON: So the question was, did you burn down a printing press, a printing business?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I didn't burn down a place, not that I am aware of.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But why would you make up an admission like that and tell it to the Truth Commission?  Could you explain to us what possible motive anybody would have to falsely admit to burning down a printing press?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I can tell you why I said it if it appears there, it is because I wanted to get rid of them, I would have told them anything just to get away from them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz.
	I think what Mr Kahanovitz is getting at is, if you were wanting to just say anything, why then say something that's going to implicate you in a crime?  These people were merely Investigators of the TRC, they weren't policemen investigating a crime or laying a charge of anything, why tell them that you committed a crime when you didn't?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Chairperson, they came to me and they asked me whether I burnt the place down and I said: "Yes, man, I did it."  I told them anything just to get rid of them.  I'm not arguing, if it is in the document, then I said it.  I'm not arguing.

MR LAX: Well you see they didn't come to you and say: "Did you burn the place down", if you look at the questions here they said to you: "What other projects were you involved in" and you said you burnt the place down.  They didn't say to you: "Did you burn the place down?"  You see the difference?  And it goes further than that because the more you tell them about this kind of thing, the more questions they're going to ask of you.  Surely the more you admit, the more they're going to ask you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Perhaps I put it incorrectly.  I myself have never burnt a place down, I'm not disputing, I said to them: "Yes, I burnt the place down", just to get rid of them, because after so many years I heard that they were Investigators from the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: But they had no authority over you, they weren't the police, why didn't you just say: "Well that's it, I'm going, goodbye.  Thanks a lot, I'm out of here"?  You could have done that, they can't stop you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Chairperson, they came to me with all sorts of promises: "Don't worry, we'll help you, just tell us what happened" and I just wanted to get rid of them.  I told them whatever was on my mind.  I couldn't trust them either.

MR LAX: But if they were worrying you, why didn't you go and get a lawyer and tell these people to leave you alone?

ISGAK HARDIEN: At a certain point they stayed away and I thought good shot, you believed my story, but then they arrived back one day, after I had phoned Ms Coleridge, and he said that he wasn't working with the TRC anymore and that he was working for the papers, and I wanted to know: "But what's going on now?"

MR LAX: But that was this year, we're talking about what happened in 1997, three years ago.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I understand.  I told them whatever, because at that stage I didn't want to hear anything about the bomb, I did not want to have anything to do with it.  I didn't want to talk about it.  Last Sunday for the first time I spoke of these things with my soccer club.  For the very first time I said to them: "I've kept this from you for 11 years, you always hear that I'm going to the TRC, you hear this and that and see this and that on TV, but I'm going to tell you this before you go and play that final."

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, did I understand your evidence correctly to be that what the TRC Investigator said to you was that if you told the truth, they would see that you were properly looked after?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember if they said that to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But isn't that what you were saying just now?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I said that they promised all sorts of things to me, that they would help me ...(intervention)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but what are you suggesting, are you suggesting that they said if you came and told them a pack of lies then they would help you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, they didn't say that if I told them a pack of lies that they would help me, they just wanted to know what I knew.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes in other words, tell them the truth and they will help you, that's what you're saying?

ISGAK HARDIEN: They didn't use the word "truth".

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes but that's what you understood.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Correct.  Because the strange thing about this printing press - let me read to you what Mr van Zyl had to say about a project that bears a remarkable similarity to the one that you've referred to.  He gave a statement to the Harms Commission - you remember the Harms Commission?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I was never at the Harms Commission.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but you heard of it.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I did.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Thank you.  He said the following
"A project in which I was also involved in the Cape, had to do with a printers press.  I cannot recall the name of the press, but I received information early in June 1989 that the printers were doing printing work for the ANC, UDF, Cosatu and other restricted organisations."
Does that ring a bell?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall if he said things like that to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Weren't you aware that there was a printing press that was doing underground printing work, that had to be burnt?  Doesn't this ring a bell?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't even know where the place is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't even know where the place is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You've never heard of Heinz Road?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I know where Heinz Road is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you see, when the TRC Investigators were asking you these questions you supplied the information, you supplied the name of - you said there's a factory in Heinz Road, correct?  You know there's a factory in Heinz Road.  You told them that, they didn't know that, you told them that.  Are you with me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I won't dispute, I could have said so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  What factory is in Heinz Road, is there a printing press in Heinz Road?

ISGAK HARDIEN: There are many of factories.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is there a printing press in Heinz Road?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It could be.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And they said Esquire Press and you said: "I think that is the name."

ISGAK HARDIEN: It could be that I was that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Let me carry on.  Mr van Zyl goes on to say
"The information was conveyed to the CCB and a project was identified for the place to be burnt down."
Now you don't remember getting any orders to burn down this printing press?