Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, for my people Codesa was totally irrelevant.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did your party join them from, I think twice if not - at least once if not twice?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, I can assure you I had nothing to do with that decision and opposed Codesa all the time. In fact, I led a demonstration of rightwing organisations against Codesa at one stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Contrary to the policy of your party ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My party ...

GEORGE BIZOS: ... which we know on an occasion joined it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My party were not there when it happened, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, I see.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes. Now I want to pay some attention to what Mr Walus said.  Would you please turn to R4, part 2, at page 306?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, the page number, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: 306.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, that's - 306. Yes, I have it, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please let us ask you what you say about what Mr Walus said to the police
"After this I saw a copy of the list to which is referred in the document. He identified a list of nine names to me as the list that he had used, and on which he had also written down Chris Hani's motor vehicle's registration number. Mr Walus' version was as follows."
Now listen to it carefully and let us see whether you agree with this possibly. 
"Do you know this typed lists with the nine names on it which is numbered by hand?  I see the following BMW 525i - BWY5253.  It is also written by hand next to the name Chris Hani.
		Walus: Yes, this is a photocopy of the list which I used during my reconnoitring of Chris Hani and Nelson Mandela. I numbered it myself. During one of my reconnoitring of Chris Hani, I noticed the BMW 525i at his house and wrote down the registration number on the car next to his name."
Now do you, did you ask Mr Walus to reconnoitre Mr Mandela's house?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I did not, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: If what he says here is correct, do you say that he did it on his own account?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I think you must direct that question to Mr Walus, Mr Chairman, I am not competent to reply to that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether your wife asked him to do it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have no idea, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was Mr Walus to be just the puller of the trigger or was he also responsible for decisions of who should live and die in the ANC and SACP?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, when Mr Walus and I discussed it, we identified Mr Chris Hani as the target.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you give him any authority at any stage to reconnoitre anyone else?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether your wife gave him any authority to go and reconnoitre anyone else?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: In view of your great friendship with him, can you advance any possible reason why he should have reconnoitred Mr Mandela's house without his being requested either by you or by your wife?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, my friendship with Mr Walus does not make me a mind-reader, and as I suggested earlier, perhaps if Mr Bizos would be better advised to direct the question to Mr Walus.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, did you ask him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He asked me that question, Mr Chairman, and I said no.

JUDGE WILSON: Because I have a note of your evidence-in-chief on Wednesday afternoon, when you said, and I read from my notes, that
"You had ruled out Easter weekend as innocent people might be at home and get injured. I don't know why he chose that day.  Walus told me that he had to reconnoitre and surveillance the routes, for bodyguards, et cetera.  He said he had been doing this to a couple of houses".
Did you ask him, Mr Derby-Lewis, who the other houses were?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I didn't, Mr Chairman, because there was no need to, because I had identified Mr Chris Hani as the target and what Walus chose to do in his free time, was his choice.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I want to suggest to you, Mr Derby-Lewis, that that is not the only point on which you have contradicted the evidence on the record. I will come back to it once we have checked our notes, in order to show you that there are a number of other instances where you actually contradict your evidence, but let us proceed.
	He says:
"I numbered it myself ..."
Did I read the whole of it, I can't remember?  No, okay.  Yes, this -
"I numbered it myself. During one of my reconnoitring of Mr Chris Hani I noticed the BMW 525i at his house and wrote down the registration number of the car next to his name. The number plates were false and it was mentioned and I put it the next day to Mr Walus that it was false
		"How was it false?
		One day when I was driving in Lindenvale, Kempton Park area, I saw a red Laser, the same like the ones I am driving. I wrote down that registration number and bought stick-on numbers at a hardware shop to fit the same registration number that the other red Laser which I wrote down. I used the stick-on numbers on my red Laser number plates the first time I reconnoitred Hani's home, that was for security reasons."
Did you discuss with him how he was reconnoitring and that he was using false number plates?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, those arrangements were his own.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please look at page 307?  The second paragraph towards the end
"Clive and I started to discuss in the direction of eliminating selected members of the ANC/SACP Alliance."
Is that true or false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What, where are you?  Oh, halfway down the second paragraph?

GEORGE BIZOS: Halfway down the second paragraph, ja, "Clive and I". Is that true?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, we discussed how to achieve the objective of stopping this in a very general manner, and as I mentioned in my testimony earlier, that if this attack on the late Chris Hani had not had the desired effect, then obviously we would have had to target a further member of the enemy.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please read that statement and tell me whether it is true or false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.
"That was unacceptable for us and Clive and I started to discuss in the direction of eliminating selective members of the ANC/SACP Alliance."

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, that's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And is the date correct that this started in February 1992?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because you will see that he actually, he says there
"Especially during the second part of 1992 when Clive and I discussed the worsening of the security situation."
And I have already testified that after the mobilisation story we started discussing plans of how to achieve and how to stop the rot.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Well, was - during the second part of 1992, is that date correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: So your discussion about eliminating people started with Walus in the second part of 1992.  Would you like to give us a month when that started?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I don't recall exactly when, but I know it would be after September.

GEORGE BIZOS: After?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The latter part of September.

GEORGE BIZOS: Late September?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And after that, after the mobilisation congress had been held.

GEORGE BIZOS: Late September.  Very well.  You say after the Kimberley ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It would have been after the mobilisation congress.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, very well, thank you, that's near enough for my purposes, thank you.
"Clive asked me if I was prepared to eliminate political opponents and I agreed to do so."
Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, that was part of our discussions, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And when was that discussion?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was also in that period, it was an ongoing discussion.

GEORGE BIZOS: September, September 1992?