Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Nothing was discussed, we were simply instructed about the raid that we were supposed to go and undertake at the church.

MR LAX: Sorry, I'm a bit puzzles here because a briefing is more than just getting an instruction.  If you were instructed, the simple words are: "I was instructed".  If: "I was briefed", to brief means to have things explained to you and set out, what the plan might be, what the objective might be, that's what a briefing is and that's the word that is used here, so please explain this to us.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What we were told was that, that's why we must go and attack and the method we were supposed to use were there.  As to the briefing and how briefing is done, it may be that we have used the wrong word here.

CHAIRPERSON: You've just said: "We were told that is why we must go and attack", what were you told about why you must go and attack?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not follow the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You said we were told that's why we must go and attack.  That indicates you were given a reason why you must go and attack, what was it?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not remember myself saying that we were given reasons.  It could be that the interpreter misheard me or did not properly address me.

ADV SANDI: Before you were told - Mr Ncamazana, before you were told that you should go and attack people at this church, did you anything about this church?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was the first time I saw it when I entered it, I knew nothing about it before that.

ADV SANDI: Did you know anything about the kind of people who were attending services and all kinds of functions at this church?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I knew nothing.

ADV SANDI: At this briefing you have referred to, did you get anything new by way of information about the church which you had not known before?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What we were told, we were told about the church we were supposed to go and attack, the method we were supposed to use and the people we were supposed to go and attack.  About how I was briefed and so on, I do not know.

MR LAX: Just one thing Mr Prior.
	When you say you were told the people you were supposed to attack, were the people described to you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was said, it is white people that we were going to find at church.

MR LAX: So it was just a question of killing white people, that's it?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MS GCABASHE: How did you know they would be there at that particular time?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I said, people who knew better about this are those who are late now because the late Kid, the place where the church was held was an area he was staying at 2.  He knew that church very well.

MS GCABASHE: And then in relation to Tona.  You left Butterworth without a car, what was he going to drive?  Why did you need a driver?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because firstly, the first attack we had been involved in before we nearly suffered because of the place we were at because it was next to a Court and a police station.  In this next area of attack for the second time it was amid houses, it would not be easy for us to quickly disappear.

MS GCABASHE: But how did you know you would find a car at the church because that is what you found at the church after the shooting?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've said already, the two deceased knew that those white people who are worshipping there have cars and that we would then be able to get one of those cars to return back.

MS GCABASHE: But unless I've missed something, you left Butterworth on the Saturday, the attack at the church was on Sunday, is that right?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.  No, sorry, sorry, no that is not so.

MS GCABASHE: Just give me that sequence again, about when you left and when you arrived in East London?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We left on Thursday.

ADV SANDI: The discussion about attacking the church Mr Ncamazana, are you able to recall how long this discussion took?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Are you talking about between myself and my comrades or between us and the commander?

ADV SANDI: Between all of you as a group immediately before you went to attack the church.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember how long it took.

ADV SANDI: Would you say it was a brief discussion or a long discussion?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I think it was a short discussion.

ADV SANDI: Were any questions posed to the commander who was making the suggestion that the church should be attacked?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The who was giving us orders about attacking the church or the commander of the unit?  Who are you referring to?

ADV SANDI: The commander of the unit.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We did not ask him any questions.

ADV SANDI: What questions were asked about the target that was about to be attacked?  Are you able to recall those questions?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I cannot remember properly the questions, except that they tried to explain to me as I did not know that place and the other Africans who were going to go with and they were trying to explain to us as much as they knew about the church.

ADV PRIOR: When you arrived at the church just before sunset, is it correct that there was a Ford Sierra motor vehicle parked there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I do not remember well.  I cannot deny or agree thereto.

ADV PRIOR: Well, according to Palapala's evidence which he gave in the High Court, and I'm referring to page 129 of the bundle, that is what he said
"When we arrived at the church the gate was slightly open"
he said there was someone painting, that is the person you referred to painting the burglar guards or you saw a person painting here so your version corresponds with his.  He said there was also a station wagon, a Ford Sierra, it was greyish in colour and he was asked whether he was interested in this vehicle, he said: 
"No, because it was an old car"
Do you remember that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember that because there were many cars there.

ADV PRIOR: You see I want to suggest to you that it seems from that that at least Palapala was under the impression that the purpose of going there was to obtain a vehicle but that Ford Sierra was too old for whoever's purposes.
	Now bear that in mind, I don't want you to reply yet because he goes on to say:
"Well, it was said that those vehicles were not there yet and in fact it was also suggested that we should leave the place so long.  This was said by Kid.
You then left the church for a while and proceeded to a certain place where you stayed for a while and then you said:
"We returned to the church, I think Kid must have seen the motor vehicle was moving in the direction of the church"
And then,  you then moved back to the church when that vehicle had arrived.  And I think that vehicle was a Jetta, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I do not remember.

ADV PRIOR: Can you dispute this?  If you say you can't remember then you can't really dispute what Palapala says, is that right?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That we turned back or something like that, I dispute but with the cars I cannot dispute because there were too many cars there.  As I had said we also keys off a BM.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, but let's just concentrate.  The Jetta - you eventually made your way away from Bahai with a Jetta motorcar.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: Can you remember the colour?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: If I remember well I think it was a metallic green.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, you're right, you're correct.  And I understand from the widow of the owner of that vehicle that it was a month old, it was a brand new motor vehicle.  Would you agree with that, it was a very new vehicle?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.