Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: What should I explain sir?

MEMBER OF COMMITTEE: Sorry to interrupt you but before repeating your question could the camera people kindly do something about that light, I can't stand it anymore it's right in my eyes?

<UNKNOWN>: : To assist you Mr Lebona I do not want to be seen to be interpreting what you are saying but just to give a guide as to why I am asking this question.   You stated that there was an infiltration of the security system of the National Party and then you say further down that your branch was no exception.   Do you understand that?

ANSWER: I understand.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why do you say, or what makes you say that the ANC branch of Orkney was no exception to the infiltration of the National Party?

ANSWER: There was a day in 1990 in February, there was a rumour that Inkanana(?), Inkatha was present and the police
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took three of our comrades and they said they were going to show them where Inkatha was.   They were not aware as to what was going to happen with them and when they were at the river they were shown the water in the river and they were told this is Inkatha and they were shot.   Luckily they didn't die.   This happened at the riverside and they all fell into the river, they are still alive today, they survived the ordeal of that day.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was there any National Party security system infiltration into your branch?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why do you say yes, what happened?

ANSWER: It so happened that police arrived, people heard the rumour that Inkatha was present and people were moving away and the white policemen, they took three of our marshals and they said we are going to show you where Inkatha was and three of them were taken to the river to the Vaal River and they were shot and they fell into the river.  Luckily they didn't die, they are still alive to this day.  I can't remember their names but they are still alive.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...Mr Chairman, members of the Committee.   You stated
"After having officially launched the Orkney branch of the ANC and the establishment of the civic organisation in a township called Kanana, our activities were fraught with difficulties.   One of those difficulties we experienced was the State-sponsored offensive against our people."

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why do you mention State-sponsored offensive against you, what was happening, what had happened?
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ANSWER: That they were State-sponsored we had already received information from Oupa who was the member of, this gangster, that they were giving money and guns to fight the activities of the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: : So you stated this in a statement on the basis of hearsay?

ANSWER: I heard this from comrade Oupa Mavele who was a member of (indistinct) gang and what gave me evidence that this was true it was after we have seen the attacks in the company of the police because everytime they attacked they would be taken with police vans and then they will be left...

<UNKNOWN>: : Paragraph 2 thereof part of which I will quote.  On page 9 of your statement you said the following
"We failed in our efforts to deal with this group as it had become a nuisance(?) and we delegated the members of the ANC to the national office of the ANC.   They were referred back to the regional office by comrade Steve Tswete, (who is now the Minister for Sports & Recreation)."
Do you remember that?

ANSWER: I remember that.

<UNKNOWN>: : What is it that the delegation was to discuss with comrade Steve Tswete?

ANSWER: We didn't have freedom in our struggle as members of the ANC and we deemed it fit to delegate some comrades to take our cry for what to the national office and when they came back they said comrade Tswete referred them back to the original office.   The regional office said the branch should solve such problems.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was the discussions with the comrade Steve
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Tswete about the Kofifi(?) gang activities?

ANSWER: It was with regard to Kofifi gang.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON
I have read the statement attached to your application and it seems very similar to the statements attached to the applications of Solomon Lekitlana and Boisele Bosakwe.   Did you all write them together?

ANSWER: We were not together, I was in prison at Klerksdorp in a different section and Bosakwe and Lekitlana were in section 2.

<UNKNOWN>: : You had no discussion with them?

ANSWER: They just asked me what did I write in my statement and I told them that I've written down the situation that prevailed then.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes, and did you show them your statement?

ANSWER: Not, I didn't show them my statement.

<UNKNOWN>: : Are you sure?

ANSWER: I am sure.

<UNKNOWN>: : You realise you have to tell us the truth?

ANSWER: I realise that I have to speak the truth that is why I am here before this Committee.

<UNKNOWN>: : You see, your statement, the statement annexed to your application starts "Post February 1990 era marked a significant hallmark in the history of our national democratic revolution".   Is that what you said?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : His statement starts "Post February 1990 era marked a significant hallmark in the history of our democratic revolution".   Are you saying that quite by chance he had the identical opening sentence?
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ANSWER: I don't know what, why are they identical but he told me that he gave the situation that prevailed then, he had to give the truth.

<UNKNOWN>: : See the other man, Bosakwe, Elias Bosakwe, his statement starts with exactly the same wording "Post February 1990 era marked a significant hallmark in the history of our democratic revolution".   So you now say quite by chance three of you picked on the same sentence?

ANSWER: What we said was prevailing then.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes, and paragraph by paragraph is the same.   I think your advocate will agree that the three statements are identical?

ADV: Chairperson I confirm that I read the statements and they are identical.

CHAIRPERSON: : They have the same handwriting do they?

JUDGE WILSON: : Somebody has copied them out.

CHAIRPERSON: : Are they?

ADV: Chairperson they are not of the same handwriting except that the contents thereof are identical.

JUDGE WILSON: : You can give no explanation for that, you ask us to believe that by some coincidence beyond all belief the three of you asked someone to write for you identical statements, four pages long each, can you give any explanation?

ANSWER: I think what is written in that statement is exactly what was said by each one of us, those are the activities that were taking place in the township.

JUDGE WILSON: : Speaking for myself, I do not believe that three people relating what had happened in the past would use identical wording for a four page statement and I am giving you a last chance to explain how it could have
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happened?

ANSWER: Sorry what chance sir?

JUDGE WILSON: : You don't want to give any explanation, you don't want to tell us how it is that you came to make these identical statements?

ANSWER: Maybe Lekitlana, they will tell how it came about to give such statement, but this is what I wrote down.

JUDGE WILSON: : Yes that could quite easily happen, they were given yours and copied yours, that I'm quite prepared to accept.

ANSWER: They will come before the Committee to tell them where did they get those statements, that is if they are prepared to tell the truth.

JUDGE WILSON: : Yours would have been the first one and what I want you to explain to me is why in that statement it says, after dealing with the raping of the woman and tying up of the husband, it says
"The people went and apprehended Zenzile who was subsequently taken to the mass meeting."

ANSWER: That's correct.