Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

MS ANDERSON: Sir, I think I did answer that earlier.  I was worried that because the address had been mentioned in the court case, it could be considered a place that, or it could be targeted in fact.  I knew that I was MK, the address where I had previously lived was in the court case.

MR MALAN: And just, did you say targeted?  What do you mean, attacked?

MS ANDERSON: Attacked in some form.  One never knew what form these things might come in.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And this attack that you were not sure of, or which form it may take, by whom did you think that attack could possibly be launched?

MS ANDERSON: By the apartheid regime.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  You're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the next witness is Mr Uriel Abrahamse.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: (sworn states)

MR BERGER: Mr Abrahamse, could you just clarify the spelling of your surname please?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes, thank you.,  My surname is pronounced Abrahamse and it is spelled A-B-R-A-H-A-M-S-E.

MR BERGER: So it is correctly spelled on the statement at pages 11 to 13 of bundle b, is that correct?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Alright.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, he's just explained to us that it's not correctly spelled there, with great respect.  He's just told us that it is spelled with an E at the end.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR VISSER: Then I've got different statements because mine says Abrahams, not Abrahamse.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Sorry that's your fault, not mine.

MR VISSER: May I know, Chairperson, whether I've got different statements from the ones that you've got.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger ...

MR BERGER: Chairperson, ...

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what you gave to ...

MR BERGER: No, let me explain what happened.  If my Learned Friend has a faxed copy, the statements that were faxed through, I'm not sure.

MR VISSER: Yes, it is.

MR BERGER: And that was what was faxed to my attorneys and then when they made copies of statements they used clearer copies which had not been changed in that respect, the name had not been changed, but I'll ask Mr ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter Mr Visser if you make the amendment?

MR VISSER: No, it doesn't matter to me as long as I'm certain that I'm working on the same statement that my Learned Friend is working on.

MR BERGER: There may be a comma or a full stop different, but I can assure my Learned Friend that they're the same statements.

MR VISSER: Explanation accepted, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger, continue.

MR BERGER: Mr Abrahamse, I'm going to ask you, first of all the statement at page 11 to 13 of bundle D, do you confirm that that is your statement and that the contents of that statement are true and correct?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I would like to confirm that it is my statement.  I have one minor correction to point out on the first page in the paragraph marked number 2, the second sentence where it says
"I was living..."
I think it should read:
"I had lived at the house..."
because if you were to interpret I was living, it means that I was there at the time of the raid, which I was not, but I had lived at that house.

MR MALAN: Just to make absolutely sure, you were living at some other place at that stage?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Permanently at some other address.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes.

MR MALAN: So by the time of the raid you had moved?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I had moved out of that house.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Subject to that correction, do you confirm that the contents of the statement are true and correct?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I do.

MR BERGER: Now, I want to - well let's start, is it correct that you had moved out of the house two weeks before the attack was carried out?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You - when did you and Mike Hamlyn first start living in the house?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Mike and myself rented this house where we were a group of four, it was Mike, myself, Alan Samuel and a fellow whose surname I don't remember, but whose first name was Gordon.  We rented the house towards the beginning of the academic year at the University of Botswana in 1983, so that would make it either August or September 1983.

MR BERGER: You described yourself and Mike Hamlyn as very close friends.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes, we were close, we lived together for two and a half years.  We started living together before we moved into that house.  We had lived together at other premises before then as well.

MR BERGER: The two of you were also involved in the MEDU Arts Ensemble, is that right?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Correct, between Mike and myself we held various responsibilities within the MEDU Arts Ensemble.  I was responsible for the distribution of the MEDU newsletter.  Later on I became head of the Naledi Writers Unit.  I was later on also a member of the MEDU Editorial Board.  Mike was a member of the Naledi Writers Unit.  He was also a member of the film and photography unit and he was the treasurer of MEDU for I think two years in succession.

MR BERGER: You say in your statement that Mike was not MK trained, neither was he a member of the ANC.  Now you've heard the debate that's been going on about whether people were members of the ANC or supporters of the ANC, or part of the ANC community in Gaberone.  Having regard to that debate, how would define Mike Hamlyn?