Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

MR VAN ECK: Did you assist Mr van Zyl, therefore?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I did.

MR VAN ECK: And was Mr Burger ever in the Cape during that time?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: During the initial recruitment he was in the Cape.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Marais was not there, he had gone to Natal as far as you were concerned.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have any further work related contact with him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The only contact we had was purely during cell meetings and where meetings were held with regard to salaries and during our establishment period.

MR VAN ECK: Regarding cell meetings, how regularly did they take place?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It is impossible to attach a specific time to these meetings, they took place quite regularly.  We gathered together on a regular basis.  In our initial time at Mattheysen, we spent time together on a daily basis.

MR VAN ECK: You mentioned a Coloured man that you tried to recruit, could you elaborate on that.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot even attach a name to a face, it was a Coloured man who I attempted to recruit at that time in Cape Town.  It never materialised.

MR VAN ECK: Did you recruit anybody else in the Johannesburg environment?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: During April, I once again tried to recruit a Coloured man by the name of Geoffrey, I was successful in my recruitment and we had an arrangement that he would gather information for me and that I would commensurately reward him.

MR VAN ECK: And in terms of this cooling off phase certain names were given to you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Which names were they?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Bruce White and Frank Chikane.

MR VAN ECK: With the exception that the name Frank Chikane was allocated to you, did you at any stage do anything definite with regard to him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: We have heard of certain attempts which were made to kill him with poison ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed Mr van Eck.
	You say the names Frank Chikane and Bruce White were given to you, by whom and why?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was during a regional cell meeting, every one of us received names to monitor and to collect information on and then most probably to devise a project on.

MR VAN ECK: What would the project involve?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Based upon the objectives of the organisation it would maximal disruption of the enemy, not necessarily the murder of a person, it would depend upon the case and that would lead to our decision regarding any project that may emanate from the information.

MR VAN ECK: Who gave you the names?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was the Co-ordinator, Wouter Basson.

MR VAN ECK: With the exception of the names, did you have any further information regarding these persons?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I did.  If I recall correctly I had a photograph and an address.

MR VAN ECK: Just to return to Frank Chikane, we are aware that later attempts were made to kill him, do you have any knowledge of this?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: None.

MR VAN ECK: Were you involved in this in any way?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not at all.

MR VAN ECK: Was the Frank Chikane project ever removed from you formally?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: Do you know why any other person continued with Frank Chikane?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: Were you ever informed whether or not there was a reason, did you ever try to establish a reason pertaining to anything that was done by somebody else?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: And while we are on the name of Bruce White, did you take any definite action regarding Bruce White?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did, I tried to collect information on him, I identified an address and I conducted observation at this address.

MR VAN ECK: In your amnesty application which was compiled we find that you are applying for the Athlone bomb explosion.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Which took place on the 31st of August 1989.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: We do not find that any application has been made for Bruce White.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And also not for Frank Chikane.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: We will return to that later.  But at this stage, Mr Barnard indicated that it was his impression that Bruce White had fall.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot elaborate on that, perhaps that was his personal impression and perhaps it was also based upon the objectives of the organisation.  Our observation at this particular address was for the purposes of collecting information.

MR VAN ECK: We will return to Bruce White later, but this was an incident in which you and Barnard were involved in June 1989, and you were also arrested for it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, we were not arrested as such, we were asked to report to Brixton for questioning.

MR VAN ECK: And this held certain consequences for you and Mr Barnard, this action with Bruce White.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it did.

MR VAN ECK: With the exception of Bruce White, did you in your division and the Coloured man later, have any success with regard to projects that you executed and so forth?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I did, but there was an advantage and a disadvantage of being known in the region.  The advantage would be that one would have greater access with regard to certain places, but the disadvantage was also that due to one's profile one could not hypothetically use another name, it wouldn't work in the particular region where one would be so well known.  I did launch further projects, Anton Rosscam.

MR VAN ECK: The Rosscam project, was it registered?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: Was it considered on an in-house level?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: Where was this?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At the Ponti Building.

MR VAN ECK: Were any submissions made?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: Were any amounts of money approved for this?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: What would it have involved?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The project would have involved the burning of Mr Rosscam's vehicle.

MR VAN ECK: What purpose would this have served?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He was quite a well known person and he used his vehicle on a daily basis, and at that stage it was about maximal disruption and we wanted to put him in a position where he could not move about freely, that is why we burnt his vehicle.

MR VAN ECK: With the exception of his vehicle which had to be burnt, were there any other plans pertaining to Mr Rosscam?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: And was the submission only about the burning of his vehicle?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And who initially was the subject, or who was the person that would do it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The Coloured man, Geoffrey.

MR VAN ECK: Was this the so-called unconscious member?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, he was an unconscious member.

MR VAN ECK: Was that project ever executed by Geoffrey?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The project was executed but not by Geoffrey.

MR VAN ECK: How was it executed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Barnard and I decided at a certain point that Geoffrey would not perform to our wishes, that we might have overestimated his capacities and that we ourselves would continue with the project.

MR VAN ECK: Was this in 1989?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: We have heard the evidence of Mr Barnard regarding how you broke into the vehicle and poured the petrol into the vehicle and how the vehicle was burnt, do you agree with it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: To a great extent.  I'm not certain of the hammer, but to a great extent I would agree with his version.

MR VAN ECK: And if you say not necessarily the 4 pound hammer, is it that you cannot recall it or is it a case of it not having taken place?