Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you that you're still under oath to speak the truth?

JACK MBELE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: (continued)   Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mbele, yesterday you told the Committee that the division into two groups was spontaneous.  Is it your evidence that the attackers moved from kwaMadala to Boipatong and down that fourth street, that last street, Moshweshwe Street turning left into Lekwa Street without any discussion as to how the attack was going to be carried out?

JACK MBELE: Let me briefly say we arrived at an open veld next to Boipatong.  We were in the front but there were talks in the middle of the group but I did not get to what was said and we proceeded to the last street of Boipatong.  According to me the groups were formed when the shooting started between us and the comrades.

MR BERGER: Where were these talks?

JACK MBELE: We stopped next to a tree.  I was in a hurry to get into the township, I did not pay attention to what was being said but there were talks.

MR BERGER: You say that you were in the front of the group and these talks were happening in the middle of the group?

JACK MBELE: That's what I would say Sir.

MR BERGER: So then I take it that you would have been at the front of the group as the group entered into Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: If you look at page 130 of the bundle, it's the second page of your affidavit, in the middle of the page you say
"Ons het later in twee groepe verdeel"
well let me go one sentence before, you say:
"Ons is as een groep uit die hostel uit, ons het later in twee groepe verdeel.  Ek was in Damarra se groep.  Ons het by die vierde straat ingegaan.  Terwyl ons beweeg het was ek en Makuka heel agter."
So in your statement you make two points.  Firstly you say that you divided into two groups, you then went into the fourth street which we know is Moshweshwe Street and you and Makuka were right at the back?

JACK MBELE: Can I give an explanation Sir.  After we entered Moshweshwe we were in the forefront.  Makuka was not next to me at that time.  When we approached Lekwa the comrades shot at us, we shot at them, they ran away and the others turned to the left up into Lekwa and we chased after them and as I was running and other people ran faster than me and they passed and the other men said to me: "Come on let's take this other direction", then we went straight until into Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: You fired shots at the comrades?

JACK MBELE: Yes I shot.

MR BERGER: Why is there no mention of that in your affidavit?

JACK MBELE: I did not mention everything in this statement.

MR BERGER: The first mention in your statement, in fact the only mention in your statement of your having fired shots is when you were in the vicinity of the firms, the industries?

JACK MBELE: At the time of giving this statement it didn't come to me that I should write everything that I did.  Maybe it's just a mistake that I did.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that this altercation with the comrades is something that you've picked up from your co-applicants during their testimony and now you think you must bring it into your testimony?  Is that what's happening, Mr Mbele?

JACK MBELE: That is not so, I saw the confrontation.

MR BERGER: How then did it happen that you and Makuka were right at the back of the group?

JACK MBELE: When we entered Moshweshwe, I was in the front.  The person who was next to me is Damarra, I'm sure of that.  When we approached the corner the self defence units were in front of us.  The shooting started and they ran away.  We chased after them.  As we were chasing after them, there were many people already running in front of me.  The other men said:  "Let's take this street" then myself and Makuka went into that street.

MR BERGER: And that was the point at which you and Makuka became or were positioned right at the back?

JACK MBELE: No, we were right at the back at the time of leaving Slovo Park for the hostel.

MR BERGER: Well I must just put it to you Mr Mbele that that's completely contradictory to what you state in your statement.  Do you have any explanation for that?  In other words what I'm saying to you is that your evidence now is that you were at the back of the group only when the group was leaving Slovo Park.  What you state in your statement is that you were at the back of the group when you were entering Boipatong.  I'm putting to you that there's a difference, a material difference.

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, when we left the stadium for Boipatong I was walking in the middle.  When we stopped in the open veld before getting into the township I was already in the forefront.  When we left that tree I was still in the forefront.  When we approached Lekwa Street I was still in the forefront, that was during the shootout of the comrades, then we entered into the other street with Mr Makuka and them.  We met another group in Slovo Park, when we joined that group we were right at the back.

MR BERGER: What did you do in Slovo Park?

JACK MBELE: We were looking for people who were running away from our members who were in the forefront.  We were behind so that if anybody approaches we could shoot at him.

MR BERGER: How long were you in Boipatong and Slovo Park?

JACK MBELE: I am not sure but if I estimate it might be 30 to 45 minutes.

MR BERGER: Some of your co-applicants have estimated the time that you were in Boipatong and Slovo Park between an hour to an hour and a half, would you say that that's too long or would you say that approximately the time that you were in Boipatong was round about an hour?

JACK MBELE: That is their estimation and this one is mine.  I do not know whether I should dispute that.

MR BERGER: What you don't dispute is that you were in Boipatong and Slovo Park for a long time and you had plenty of time to do whatever you wanted to do.  Am I right?

JACK MBELE: You are right.

MR BERGER: How much time did you spend in Slovo Park?  Can you say?

JACK MBELE: I think it's about six minutes because we only walked in one street, the street that is dividing the township and the informal settlement.

MR BERGER: And was this towards the end of your time in Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: I have a technical problem, I cannot properly get the interpretation.

MR BERGER: My question to you was;  would I be correct in saying that you spent most of your time in Boipatong, towards the end of the attack you moved into Slovo Park?

JACK MBELE: We took some time to get into Boipatong but it took us quite a short time to get into Slovo Park and we did not spend much time in Slovo Park because we were on our way out to the hostel.

MR BERGER: You see, you must have spent a lot of time in Slovo Park, Mr Mbele, because if you got into Boipatong and you immediately moved after the altercation in Lekwa Street towards Slovo Park, you had to account for, even on your evidence, about a half an hour doing something in the vicinity of Slovo Park before you moved out again through Boipatong.  So what I'm suggesting to you is that you spent a considerable time in Slovo Park on your evidence.

JACK MBELE: Sir, we were not running, we only ran when we chased after the comrades.  That is the only time when we ran.  When we headed for Slovo Park we were just walking, we did not run.

MR BERGER: Okay, let me ask you this.  When you got to Slovo Park had a lot of death and destruction already taken place?

JACK MBELE: I'll say yes because when we approached from the corner there were people in front of us already about 200 metres from where we were.  Now we were actually walking on their trails, they had passed already.  I would say there was destruction and death already.

MR BERGER: So there was really nothing for you to do in Slovo Park.  The business of killing had already been done?