Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I cannot really answer that, it was always left to the doctor whether he wanted it X-rayed or not.

MS THABETHE: But I mean in your experience, why would a body not be sent for X-rays, in what circumstances?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I would say most probably because there wasn't much in the Police report, for him to warrant an X-ray.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  Coming to the Police report ...

MR LAX: No, can I just pick up on that.  If there were obvious signs on the body of some sort of gunshot wound or whatever, what would the doctor have done then?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: He would have requested for an X-ray.  There were cases where the Police report didn't actually state that it was a shooting, where the doctor himself suspected that there may have been a shooting, and in that case the post-mortem were not held until he spoke to the Investigating Officers and confirmed what the real case was.

MR LAX: In this case, the body came to you on the 15th of July and it was buried on the 16th of July?  Would you infer from that, that it didn't go for X-rays?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes, I would say so, yes.

MR LAX: Just the time lag is clear, because it would have had to go to Gale Street, and that would have taken time to transport it there, to bring it back and so on?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes, because we always had to make an appointment at Gale Street mortuary before we took it there.

MR LAX: And this is really speculation, but clearly if it didn't go for an X-ray, one of the indications might be that the doctor didn't suspect anything, he didn't see anything that was suspicious enough to make him send it for an X-ray?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Most probably, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: I just wanted to come back to the Police report. In what form, did it come as a form or an affidavit usually?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: It was a form that accompanied the body to the mortuary, it was called a SAP180.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  We have a form here on page 75 of Bundle 2 that was completed by Sgt Mthembu.  Page 75 of Bundle 2.

MR LAX: It is an SAP16?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MS THABETHE: This is an SAP16.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: It is not that, it is a SAP180 that I am talking about.

MS THABETHE: Okay, what is this one?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: This was filled when a body was found with valuables, jewellery or ...

MS THABETHE: Okay.   So would you say there were any valuables here, it states "other property ..."

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: According to the form, no.

MS THABETHE: Last question, if the body came in a decomposed state, let's say there was a gunshot wound on the head, how easy would it be to identify that gunshot wound?

MR VISSER: No Chairperson, this witness cannot give that evidence with great respect.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, he was there during ...

MR VISSER: Well, he doesn't remember it.

CHAIRPERSON: If the bullet wound is between the eyes or in the middle of the forehead ...

MS THABETHE: Maybe I should rephrase my question then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  But just - I don't know if he can, if he is an expert on this, but ask him for what it is worth.

MS THABETHE: When a body came and it was decomposed, and the doctor would look at the body, could he see in your opinion, a gunshot wound on the head, on top of the head, let's say?  Would it be easy for him to see?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: It is difficult.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

ADV BOSMAN: May I put it to you this way, if you will allow me Ms Thabethe, the entry that the skull was decomposed, what does that signify?  Was the skull bare or not necessarily, could
you perhaps assist us there?  The entry says "skull decomposed", the bone would not be decomposed?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I think he meant there that the skin and muscles and so forth, I don't think he meant the bone.

ADV BOSMAN: It would not indicate that the skull was bare?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I am not sure what he meant.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, I thought you may be able to assist.  Thank you.

MR LAX: Just with regard to your last, the previous question.  Bullet wounds come in so many different shapes and sizes, really I would say that it would be impossible for you to say, dealing with the specifics of one case, to give a general answer, isn't that so?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, any questions?

MR LAX: No Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question, thank you Chairperson.  I think it was suggested here in evidence, my colleagues may correct me if I am wrong, that the policemen would sometimes measure and weigh the remains.  Did you at any time weigh a body or measure the body?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: You did?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And would it then be done fairly accurately or would it be a sort of rounded off figure?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: In fact when we weighed the body, we used a scale and we had a stick, what do you call it, a yardstick and we used that to measure the body.

ADV BOSMAN: Would it then indicate the fraction of a kilogram or would you round it off, say if it is 1,62, enter it as 1,60?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No.

ADV BOSMAN: No, well that is what I am trying to - yes, 1,60 or 160,2?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: In fact if it was measured, then we give the exact 1.62 or 1.63, whatever.

ADV BOSMAN: I see, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And if a body was completely decomposed, how would you measure it?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: It was rarely measured when it was completely decomposed.

CHAIRPERSON: So how would one then fill in the space that says "height of body"?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I suppose the doctor just made his own observation and gave an average height and weight.

CHAIRPERSON: And if a body was completely decomposed, would it be weighed?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I wouldn't say always.

CHAIRPERSON: And if it was weighed, would it be weighed in a bag or alone, by itself?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: In a bag.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Dr Chetty, was he a full time District Surgeon or was he also a practitioner who practised part time as a District Surgeon?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: At that time he was a full time District Surgeon.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long had you been working at the mortuary, when did you start at Verulam?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I started in the same year.

CHAIRPERSON: 1987?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Dr Chetty, do you know how long he had been a District Surgeon for?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I knew him before I joined the Police Force.  He was my GP at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR VISSER: There are two aspects if you would allow me Chairperson.   I am sorry I didn't quite hear you when you gave an answer to a question of Mr Wills.
	You were asked whether the clothes of a body would always be cut off and you either said there were times when clothes were not cut off and then you either said when a body was in a complete or in an advance state of decomposition or you said not in an advance state of decomposition.  I am sorry, I didn't hear what you were saying?  Perhaps if you can just tell me, I ...

CHAIRPERSON: My note is it is not strange that the clothes were removed, sometimes clothes not cut, especially in advanced decomposition.

MR VISSER: Well, how does that make sense, that is what I heard you say?  How does that make sense, especially in an advanced state of decomposition?  Why would the clothes not be cut off?
	One would imagine that especially in that case, the clothes would be cut off?  How do you deal with the situation?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: If the doctor asked us to remove the clothes, it was cut off.