Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1999-02-02

ALAN TYANI: There's nothing else, there's nothing more expect for the fact that we went to a certain place looking for him and we couldn't find him.  There's nothing more.

MR MALAN: Do you regret the unfortunate killing of Mr Zokwe, sincerely?

ALAN TYANI: Yes I deeply regret, I can even say that if there were no differences between the politicians and the Matanzima regime we wouldn't be here today.  I deeply regret and secondly I want to emphasise concerning his mother that she uttered words that were so painful and I regarded him as a parent because I also had parents but that was very bad but I had no other option because we were faced with this situation.

MR MALAN: Just one last aspect regarding the actual killing.  When the deceased had the handgrenade was there no way out that you could have fled the house for a second, keep him under surveillance, there was more than three or four people surrounding the house so he couldn't get anywhere, was it necessary to kill him?

ALAN TYANI: I do not care whether what expert was there but we had no other option in that situation.  When the handgrenade is thrown the delay is different, it depends whether it's an F1 or M26, the delay period is different from these handgrenades.  Therefore what we have to do at that particular moment you have to protect yourself and the people in your company.

MR MALAN: But exactly if the pin of the handgrenade is already removed and you shoot a person bearing that handgrenade, exactly what you are afraid of is going to happen.  By fleeing, you might avoid the throwing of the handgrenade?

ALAN TYANI: You cannot be able to prevent a person from throwing a handgrenade by running away.  As far as I was trained you cannot run away from the handgrenade.  It depends on the expertise of the person throwing the handgrenade.  If he is an amateur he can be able to detonate it and get it to explode before the delay.  If you try to run away it means you are more similar to a person committing suicide.  What you can do is to take cover in that kind of a situation and face the grenade with the lower part of your body but that will also depend, the shrapnel might come straight to you.

MR MALAN: The question is, you've testified that you saw the pin being removed, if I remember correctly, by shooting such a person, the following that's going to happen, that grenade is going to be released from the dead person's hand and what you are afraid of in the first instance will still occur?  Isn't that true?

ALAN TYANI: That depends at the distance where it falls and you would be also watching it.  If he had thrown that you'll have to devise another plan.  If you can see it that it had fallen next to the person it's easy for you to see.  As he was standing at the door, if you could see that it fell, if it had fallen inside the room the shrapnel wouldn't escape the room.

ALAN TYANI: Mr Gumengu testified there was another door in the same passage, how far were you from that door?

ALAN TYANI: As Gumengu was in front I was not far from both doors.  He was in front but I moved to another position when he shouted out "grenade" and I started shooting, I was not that far from him but I was sure that if I had to shoot I had to make sure that my direction of fire was not going to hurt Mr Gumengu.

MR MALAN: Right, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malan.

JUDGE MILLER: Just one question before cross-examination just to get this out of the way?  Do you know anything about the attack on Mr Zokwe during August 1987?

ALAN TYANI: Yes I remember about that attack but I saw it in a newspaper, Daily Despatch.  When I thought about it I thought that he was killed by his fellow comrades because it was alleged that there was a conflict between him and his comrades because he had given evidence in Bophuthatswana but he was never charged, that's what came to my mind that he was killed by his own comrades.

JUDGE MILLER: If you take a look at the supplementary bundle of documents, once again the summary of substantial facts, you and Mr Gumengu were both charged, there was an indictment issued against both of you.  You were accused number one and he was accused number two and I'm just reading from page 6 of the summary of substantial facts, right at the bottom and it says
"The State will allege that accused at all times relevant acted in concert and with a common purpose with regard to both (and they underline both) counts to murder the deceased."
Do you say you weren't there at all when he was shot the first occasion in August?  You've got no personal knowledge of that or do you?

ALAN TYANI: Yes I have no personal knowledge about that and the fact we were working with the same intention, yes that would happen sometimes when we have to arrest him, we would be given orders together but when the order to kill him not to arrest him, I was not there when it was issued.  I was so confident that that would become clear during the trial.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you.  Mr Mnqandi, questions?

MR MNQANDI: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Tyani, when you proceeded to the deceased's homestead besides you who was present?

ALAN TYANI: It was myself and the deceased, Mr Gumengu, I can't remember the third person but I remember that Mr Gumengu was also there and we were driving in a white Corolla XE, but I cannot remember the whole registration number but there was a second car with other members but in the car that I was in it was myself, Gumengu and the deceased.  I cannot remember the other person who was in.  I also remember our senior member and others like W/O Spambo.

MR MNQANDI: So you cannot tell us how many members were altogether involved in this operation?

ALAN TYANI: I can say some of them but I cannot say all of them were there except for the fact that if I had a list I would be able to do that but since this happened some time ago I can still remember some of the members like Capt Spambo.

MR MNQANDI: When you reached the deceased's homestead what did you do?

ALAN TYANI: When we reached his home we got in.  There was Gumengu walking with him as he was handcuffed.  I think we got to the side of the kitchen or dining room.  I remember that we went through a passage there when we were next to the door and then we asked about his room.  After a while he pointed out the room.  Gumengu asked about the key.  I cannot remember whether he got the key from pocket or somewhere else but it was dark in the house because it was late in the afternoon and I saw him opening the door but I was not nearer because Gumengu was with him.  After opening the door we got inside and I noticed that in the manner he closed the door ...(intervention)

MR MNQANDI: Okay, okay, let's cut it there.  When he was opening the door where were you standing?

ALAN TYANI: I was behind Gumengu.  When I can estimate now I think he was at the distance of that jar with a red cap.  It was a bit dark.  I couldn't count the paces.  After closing the door I came closer and Gumengu was talking and I was also talking.  Gumengu was actually begging him or pleading with him to open the door but I am not sure whether the deceased was holding the door inside.

MR MNQANDI: Mr Tyani, can you try and answer the question and not relate a story please?  When the accused - when the deceased got inside and locked himself were you still behind Mr Gumengu?

ALAN TYANI: Yes that is correct.

MR MNQANDI: Did you at any stage pass Mr Gumengu?

ALAN TYANI: Yes at some stage I went past him but it was when he was opening the door for the second time.  That's where I had to change the position and I was on Gumengu's right-hand side.  I did not go past him when he was inside.

MR MNQANDI: At the time Mr Gumengu shouted "handgrenade" were you still behind him?

ALAN TYANI: Yes I was behind him I am sure of that but in the passage.

MR MNQANDI: Were you seeing the deceased, was he in your sight?