Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, at this stage Chairperson I will call Oupa Lerato Kgotlhe.  Chairperson, applicant will give evidence Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we have an interpreter to assist.

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Kgotlhe, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll proceed and read the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, just give us a minute, we just want to make sure that we are actually tuned in properly to the translation.

INTERPRETER: Channel 2 is English.  Am I coming through?

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't actually heard the translation of the testimony previously so I wonder if you just don't want to repeat, I'm sorry.  Wouldn't you just repeat it Mr Mbandazayo so that we can just make sure that we are all tuned in properly here?

INTERPRETER: Is English coming through?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Kgotlhe, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee.  Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll proceed and read the affidavit.
"I, the undersigned ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: It seems there's still a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, we've got to interrupt you again, Mr Mbandazayo.  We just want to see, there might be a problem.

INTERPRETER: Check, one, two, three, channel English.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you, we've got that.  Alright, you go ahead Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
"I, the undersigned, Oupa Lerato Kgotlhe, do hereby make an oath and say that I'm the applicant in the above matter having submitted my application whilst being held at Grootvlei maximum prison, Bloemfontein.  The facts to which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge unless the context indicates otherwise.  I was born in 1971 at Hoopstad, Free State Province.  I grew up in Wesselsbron where I did my primary education up to Standard 6 in 1984.  In 1985 my family moved to Botshabelo near Thaba Nchu where I left school at Standard 8 due to financial problems.  I joined PAC through Azania 1986.  In 1990 I left the country to Zimbabwe to Tanzania where I joined Apla and did my military training.  I came back from Tanzania at the end of 1990 and I was posted at the PAC headquarters under the command of comrade Inox Zulu and the late Jan Shoba.  Late in 1991 I was deployed in the Free State Province.  I was involved in about seven operations and I have applied for amnesty in all of them.  I confirm that I commanded the unit which split from Pila Dolo's unit that attacked houses that belonged to policemen and security personnel in the South African Lesotho borders on the 10th December 1992.  I confirm that I went with Jabu to the other house, I was armed with R4 rifle and hand grenade and Jabu was armed with an Uzi and Molotovs.  We went to the house which was plus four houses from the one Pila Dolo's unit attacked the same night.  I broke the window with the rifle butt and Jabu threw Molotovs and also threw a grenade and also fired shots.  Thereafter we retreated and joined the other unit which was commanded by comrade Dolo.  The affidavit of comrade Dolo has been read to me.  I understand the contents and I confirm it insofar as it relates to me and specifically request that same be incorporated in this affidavit.  I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the act and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in the Ficksburg operation and I accordingly humbly request that my application for amnesty be granted."
Chairperson, now I would ask Mr Kgotlhe then just to give clarity on certain issues.
	Mr Kgotlhe, Mr Dolo has testified before this Committee and told the Committee that he was called by you from Sterkspruit to assist him.  Can you in your own words give full picture to the Committee as to what actually happened, how did you come to the decision that these houses should be attacked?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, just before you proceed, just for the record could we just get clarity on this?  Mr Kgotlhe, are you also known as Mtate?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes you can carry on?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: What I can say is that when this incident happened in Ficksburg I needed comrade Dolo's help because he had the knowledge and some resources because we wanted to carry out some operations on our side in Lesotho.
	The instruction was that we should carry out more operations and I had the duty to ensure that they all succeeded.  I went to Sterkspruit and we discussed this with Dolo that I received an instruction that we should carry out some instructions on my side and I really needed his help to come and help in my unit.  We also discussed the importance of our operations and the reasons why we had to attack that area, that is those houses that is those houses that we ended up attacking.
	From the information that I got it was clear that this area and these houses were occupied by the members of the SADF and the South African police.  I also indicated to him that I ensured and reconnoitred the place and I also interacted with the people who were working there, domestic workers and I engaged with them in discussions to get information from them as to whether those places were occupied by the members of the regime.  That is how I ended up making a decision that we have to attack this place because they were occupied by the security personnel.  Those were the reasons why I needed his help and he agreed and he came to my side to give us help.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee why specifically the house at number 143, why did you have to attack that house, specific house?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Like I've already said, I got information that some of the houses belonged to the security personnel so we took a general decision that if some houses were occupied by the members of the police and the defence force, so our starting point will be to attack all the houses.  We knew that it may also happen that some houses were not owned by the South African Police but our general belief was that because most of them were occupied by the police and defence personnel we have to attack all the houses.  So it just happened that this house it be one of those houses that we ended up attacking.  There were also other houses which were not attacked that day.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Chairperson at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: Yes thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Kgotlhe, you state that you reconnoitred the area yourself, is that correct?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: That is correct.

MS PATEL: When was this done?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: This was not the first operation in Ficksburg, it was our second operation.  When we started reconnoitring the place during our first operation we got information concerning our second attack.  It was just a continuous thing.  I cannot say specifically how long it took me to reconnoitre the place, it took me some months.

MS PATEL: Mr Dolo said to us that the area - his information from you was that the place had been reconnoitred the previous week.  What is your comment on that?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: That is the information that he got from me and there was a rule that we have to have a certain information.  So the information that I had it was not necessary for him to have all information that I had so this is some of the information that I gave him, I didn't give him all the information, that is the golden rule as members of Apla.