Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-19

JUDGE WILSON: There in fact were slightly different technical offences relating to the possession of firearms, weren't they?

UNKNOWN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there nothing else you wish to put to the applicant?

UNKNOWN: No Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, is there anything else you wish to put to this applicant?

MR BRINK: No, thank you Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Phakamisa, in your application you have made reference to a certain Mr Makalene and Mr Mtemba.  Who are they?

MSHLABUNSIMA MAXIM PHAKAMISA: Those were the Committee leaders from SANCO.  We used to account to those leaders, if something happened amongst the SDU's.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were they present when a decision that you should attack the police in your neighbourhood was taken?

MSHLABUNSIMA MAXIM PHAKAMISA: The decision of attacking the police was because the community didn't like the Internal Stability Units, we were trying to drive them away so we formed the SDU's to protect the communities.
	Sometimes we didn't tell the communities what our plans were because as they were asleep and we would go out and patrol and whenever they heard the gunshot they would know that we are fighting the enemy.
	I cannot say that we told the people what we were doing at the time, because they knew that we were patrolling at a certain time and even if we meet out enemy, the residents could hear by gunfire.  There was no need for us to tell the residents, the community what to do, but they were forced to go and sleep so that we can patrol during the night.
	Whenever we would meet the enemy, they would hear the sound.

JUDGE WILSON: From what I understand of the version given it wasn't your intention to attack these policemen, you were seeking to hide away from them, but they came towards you and then you were forced to attack them?

MSHLABUNSIMA MAXIM PHAKAMISA: When we were trying to hide, we didn't want them to see us at a distance.  We just wanted them to come closer so that we can go straight to them when they were nearer.
	We were not prepared to run away, because we were armed and we were protecting our residents.  Who else was going to protect the residents if we were running away?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Phakamisa, in your application in response to paragraph 11, the translation reads as thus and I would like to have your comment because probably we have to amend this:  At 11 B, you say we took this decision as SDU members on the 29th of August 1993 together with agreements with SANCO leadership.
	I don't remember their addresses, but I have their telephone numbers.  In brackets you then include Richard
Makalene and his telephone number and Sonwabo Mtengwani and his telephone number, this must be a mistake.  There was never a decision taken on the 29th of August 1993?

MSHLABUNSIMA MAXIM PHAKAMISA: In 1993, do you mean 1993?

JUDGE WILSON: Where were you reading?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, 1993.

JUDGE WILSON: 11 B.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Oh, sorry, I think we have, here is a mistake.  In fact Mr Brink, I actually have two translations for ...

MR BRINK: Yes, it was erroneously bound, it was erroneously bound, it was pointed out to me by Judge Wilson yesterday, I removed from his papers that translation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think we will disregard page 7 up to page 9 for the record.  Thank you Mr Phakamisa, I just had a problem with the dates reflected in your application, it turns out that we were given the wrong bundle.

MSHLABUNSIMA MAXIM PHAKAMISA: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: While we are on the question of dates, if you look at page 14, going back to Two-Boy Jack, have you got it?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Should we just amend that date?

MR BRINK: I don't think you can strictly speaking, amend it Mr Chairman, because the form is an affidavit, but you can ...

JUDGE WILSON: But when we come, if we come to grant amnesty we will grant amnesty in regard to an offence committed on the 22nd not the 23rd.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, before this applicant is excused, is it possible for you to enquire whether the other interested people who were expected to be here, are here?  And if they have a say in the matter or if they are interested in having a say in the matter.

MR BRINK: I will  make that enquiry, do you wish to adjourn while  I do so?  I think Constable Anderson was here - oh, is he gone?

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from the two who were here earlier this morning.

JUDGE WILSON: We were told I think that a Sergeant Solomon, was on the way?

MR BRINK: There is no further representation or attendance by the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthana we don't particularly want to ask you to address us unless there is something special which you wish to put forward?

UNKNOWN: No, I shall let that rest then.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I don't oppose this application Mr Chairman.  Or shall I say these applications.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will consider its decision in due course and will make it known to Counsel for the applicants and to the applicants.
	Thank you.  Mr Brink, does that bring to a close the proceedings for the day?

MR BRINK: It does, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The applications for tomorrow, will they be ready to proceed?

MR BRINK: Yes, I hope so.  I mean as far as I am concerned, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we commence earlier than we did this morning?

MR BRINK: We will endeavour to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, provisionally can we commence at 9.30?

MR BRINK: That is convenient for me if convenient for you.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, the Committee will now adjourn and resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS UNTIL 9.30 TOMORROW MORNING: .