Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-21

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: We were still talking about the bullet wound, you were still telling us what you found out from the post-mortem from Dr Naidoo.  Of course Dr Naidoo is going to come and give evidence as to what he did after the body had been handed over to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'm just thinking about something, would this be a convenient stage to introduce those photographs?  Did you obtain them, the photographs from ...  Under what circumstances did you first see the photographs?

STEPHANIE MILLER: At one stage I obtained a photograph from the family, but I suspect that was later, the earliest photograph I obtained of Ntombi Kubheka was from Capt Holmes in Pretoria.  We met at about, either on or about the same day as I went to Johannesburg to arrange with Ms Kubheka's two sisters, Lyn and Sibongile, for blood samples so that we could try and match the body with that of the sisters.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I've arranged that the photographs be brought up here, so that I can introduce them.  Oh, Mrs Miller has indicated that she has one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can proceed.

MS THABETHE: Can we proceed?  Ja, okay, Mrs Miller, you've heard the applicants' version that they stick to their version that Ntombi Kubheka died of a heart attack and now as the TRC have exhumed a body with a bullet wound and their evidence is that this is the wrong body, what would be your response to that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I am convinced in my own mind that as a result of our investigations we had exhumed the correct body.  All the evidence obtained from the people who saw Ms Kubheka when she departed to meet Jimmy Mbane, indicate that the dress that was found in the grave was the dress that she was in fact wearing on the day.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, who are these people you are referring to?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The neighbour in the house next door, Ms Dludla.

MS THABETHE: Who else?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well that was one level of the evidence.  The other issue was that if you were to look at the mortuary records of all the deceased that I listed, or the average height of most of the deceased and the most women, by all accounts Ms Kubheka was an extraordinarily short woman.  And I think it's clear from the family that the siblings are substantially shorter than average and the body exhumed from the grave-side was of an extraordinarily short woman relative to the national average.  We obviously couldn't tell the weight from the remains.  The level of decomposition would seem to match according to expert evidence which I'm sure will be presented later, that this was appropriate for a body that had been out in the veld for a period of time.  And the bullet hole that was found in the skull, came as somewhat of a surprise given the evidence that was before us at that time.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mrs Miller.  I have no further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Ms Miller?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Ms Miller, so we start off on the pitch that according to you the body that was exhumed from grave 343 at Charlottedale, belonged in fact to Mrs Kubheka, that is your conviction?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Can I just commence by going through some of the issues which you raised in your evidence-in-chief.  You say that there was a Section 29 Inquiry, do you know what happened to the record of that Inquiry?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I would imagine that they are in the archives of the Truth Commission.

MR VISSER: And would you imagine also that they would be easy to find if one wanted to find them?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Mr Visser, I have no idea how easy they would be to find.

MR VISSER: Well let me ask you this, you wouldn't know of any reason why they were not placed before this Committee, would you?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Possibly because they would not necessarily have been asked for.

MR VISSER: Well they are relevant, aren't they?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I'm not sure that they are relevant.

MR VISSER: Well you told us that Taylor told you a whole lot of things, he said he wasn't there when Kubheka died, he wasn't there throughout the time when she was at Winkelspruit.  He was giving evidence as to the facts and we know that Mr Taylor is since deceased, doesn't that make it absolutely relevant?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I would disagree with you, Mr Visser, on the basis that in Mr Taylor's amnesty application he says that he was not present when she died.

MR VISSER: Really?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Ja.  He said, if my memory serves me correctly, that he was present at the site but he never saw her be - he applies for murder or a possible culpable homicide, but he did not see her being assaulted, which seems to indicate that he was not with her all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Visser, if I could just intervene.  	Did you attend those Section 29 hearings?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I was in and out of those Section 29 hearings, because not all of the matters related to issues I was dealing with.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's just what I wanted to ask about.  Was there a particular Section 29 hearing relating to the disappearance of Ms Kubheka?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, no it wasn't specifically on the disappearance, there was a Section 29 hearing which was held to ascertain what knowledge Mr Taylor had, Col Taylor had on a whole range of things.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know whether, you yourself as you sit here, do you know whether any other person at that Section 29 hearing testified as to this matter, the disappearance of Ms Kubheka?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Nobody else testified as to this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	May we just follow this up, you've just stated that, two things, one, Taylor's said himself in his amnesty application that he wasn't there all the time and then you said you drew the inference that he wasn't there, because he said he didn't see anybody assault her.  Now which is which?

STEPHANIE MILLER: They're not separate.

MR VISSER: Oh I see, you don't see any neutral ...(indistinct) between the two answers?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, I don't.  My understanding from Col Taylor's amnesty application is that he is applying for the same incident that everybody else in that group is applying for as well, but there seems to be a variance in their interpretation about what happened to Ms Kubheka.

MR VISSER: And that you say is because he applies for murder?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Or the possible culpable homicide.

MR VISSER: Yes, or culpable homicide.

STEPHANIE MILLER: He obviously had a very different viewpoint.

MR VISSER: But if you look at the facts which he states, where does the murder come in?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Where he mentions it in his amnesty application.  He mentions murder.

MR VISSER: On the facts, where does he state how she was murdered?

STEPHANIE MILLER: He doesn't state how she was murdered.

MR VISSER: Precisely.  So what happened here is obviously, Mr Taylor got advice from his lawyer to apply for murder and the whole, just the same as the other applicants are doing at the present time.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well that is conjecture on both of our parts.

MR VISSER: No, no, no, not on my part, Madam, not on my part.  The point is this, you drew an inference that there's something sinister in Mr Taylor having applied for amnesty for murder, which I put to you is without a foundation.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I draw nothing sinister about Mr Taylor applying for amnesty for murder, I found it unusual that the Commanding Officer would apply for amnesty differently to those of the people under his command.