Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-06-02

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you very much Mr Swart. I want to observe certain parts  in your submission. The first one is on page one: number two, general context - 1985, The committee of '81, which was a student organisation comprised of student representatives was formed. The committee organised the schools and protest rallies, now I want to underline that. The meetings took place at Sinton and other schools where the members of the committee of '81 met. So would you agree with me that Sinton High School became a target area?

MR SWART: Yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: On page two, around the middle or the sentence, the paragraph which starts with: It is important to highlight the fact that teaching could not continue because of the stoning etc.etc. What I want to underline is the sentence and I quote "Sometimes it seemed that the police were provoking the students." I want to lay out a scenario, that on that particular day of the Trojan Horse the police were wearing unusual clothes, the police had an unmarked truck with crates in the back, the police were hiding in the crates , that they drove up the street, nothing happened, there was no stoning. They went back and then came back again. Would you think that that was done to provoke the students?

MR SWART: I think so, because the thing is, why should they then travel up and down and then wait for the truck to be stoned and then out of the crates, and open fire on defenceless children, and killing three of them.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: The other part that I want to highlight, is on page three, the lat paragraph. "The police knew about the meetings students held so they came to interrupt these meetings and rallies with guns and caspers and all sorts of weapons. That, in fact the police came prepared with heavy ammunition. There was no rioting at that time, there was no stone throwing at that time. The police actually came to provoke violence and then to act in the way they did, with heavy and dangerous ammunition. Would you agree with that?

MR SWART: I would agree with that, yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you, Chairperson, would you...?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Ramashala and Mr Swart. Anyone of the team? Mrs Burton.

MARY BURTON: Thank you chairperson. Mr Swart, Am I right in saying that at that time you were still in Pollsmoor prison?

MR SWART: Yes, In 1976, I was held in Athlone, '85 with the reopening of schools, I was arrested with the other parents, but I was separated from the rest and taken away by security and then taken to Pollsmoor.

MARY BURTON: I'd like to say that I don't think you were right when you said that you weren't very brave, there were many very brave people at the time. But I wonder if it is possible for you, knowing that the turmoil that you and your community were going through, to think about if we were looking at an ideal society, what the police could and should have done at the time, given the fact there was great resistance. It had been growing in all our communities, all around this area, and in much wide spread parts of the Cape. There had been the closure and the reopening of the schools. There had been the Pollsmoor March, there had been the burning barricades, there had been a number of incidents of stone throwing. Now in a situation like that, what can one ask of a police force?

MR SWART: I know it's extremely difficult under those circumstances, but the thing is, what you know, I see around, watching T.V. etc. When there's unrest, say in Japan, or in Europe and, you know, stones are not thrown, but molotov cocktails, in other words, petrol bombs are thrown at the police, but the police are there with just their shields and they don't take any action, but in the South African context, but it is possibly because a black person throwing a stone, a gun is taken and pointed at the person and shot. Why do we have that? I just can't get the two together, petrol bombs are thrown - nothing happens, but a stone is thrown and a bullet is put through your head.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, I just want to unbungle this chicken and egg situation. Why do you think the stone throwing started?

MR SWART: I would say the stone throwing started because that was the only way in which, well possibly pupils and outsiders could show their disgust at the brutality, the harassment metered out by our police force.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Ramashala and could you close for us please?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr Swart, it is very clear that this incident and others leading up to it and right after affected the entire community, in particular the community of parents whose children were killed and injured. But clearly it must have also affected the community of teachers and pupils, particularly at the Alexander Sinton High School. How did that community respond to an aftermath of the pain and the shock that occurred?

MR SWART: After the Trojan Horse Incident, we held quite a number of meetings with the parents, we called them to the school to explain to them what is happening at the school, what is happening in Athlone itself. And the parents came forward, helped the school, helped the children to attend school regularly because there was a dropping off in the attendance and they rallied by even attending meetings that took place at the mosque, so it was not just a so-called muslim thing at the mosque, it was all members of the community, coming together, sharing their experiences and  helping each other during this difficult period of the Trojan Horse Incident.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: As part of expressing our thanks to you, may I say that that period presented a dilemma for teachers as custodians of education. It presented a dilemma also in the sense that teachers could not stand back and lead the way for students without also in a way helping guide students in the process.
 It also presented a dilemma because students were losing their time in terms of their study period for every year that a student could not learn, could not write their exams, that was a year lost in their future.
 Clearly there is a whole generation from that period or children like Toyer a young man today, whose lives have been changed completely, who in a sense lost out, whose dreams were not realised.  Those children are in limbo now, they are young men, yes but they are in limbo because their education dreams were never realised.
 What in your opinion do you think we should do to sort of provide a transition and help them out? In a sense I think 99% of the children from that generation are unemployed,  I think I am correct, when I say that.

MR SWART: Yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: What can we do  now?

MR SWART: Well, if you are speaking about Toyer, Toyer was one of my pupils.  I sympathise with him, it was a difficult period for him to go through but I still think that we can as teachers get them back and you know, give whatever we can to close that particular gap that has been lost in his life where his education was shattered and we can still look forward in providing him with whatever we can.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In closing, may I say that thanks to you and all other teachers in the country both Black and White, for whom teaching was not fun at the time, for whom being in the schools presented a serious dilemma, but your participation and I think affirmation of the children and what they were doing, really helped sustain the children in their struggle for let me say quality education.
 On behalf of the Truth Commission, I would like to say thank you for giving this perspective also.

MR SWART: Pleasure, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Could we stand for departure to lunch.  I just want to mention quickly that if you could return here please at 2.30, or rather 2.25 so that we could begin at 2.30.  Could you stand as that witnesses leave the room, thank you.

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