bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

CASE NO: CT/00547

WENDY ORR: Thank you Chair.  I have a few housekeeping announcements to make as we call them.  Firstly  to explain the use of these translation devices to you.  Unfortunately we don't have enough of these to go on to every single chair so I would ask you to share, particularly if you do understand the language which is being used by the witness - if you could give your headset to someone who does not understand that there are a fair number of these available in the hall.
The headphones plug into the receiver at the back and there are two buttons on either side.  One with numbers on - those - that button is to choose the language which you want to hear.  Number 1 is Afrikaans, Number 2 is English and Number 3 is Xhosa so you can choose the language you would like to be hearing and then there is a volume button on the other side which you can make louder or softer.  
The piece of apparatus which actually transmits the sound are these two black boxes up here so you need to make sure that the front of your device with the glass bubbles on it is pointing to those black boxes otherwise your reception will be very poor.
Please at lunch time and teatime leave these devices on your chair, do not take them away with you.  We need to recharge them so they must stay behind.
Secondly for everyone who has cell phones, could you please turn them off and that includes people on the panel.
We ask you to stay seated whilst witnesses are testifying.  It is very disruptive if people are walking in and out.  Obviously if someone arrives and wants to come in we will allow that but please don't get up and walk around whilst the witnesses are testifying.
If anyone here today would like to make a statement to the Truth Commission, we do have facilities for taking your statements and you should talk to one of the two gentlemen at the back of the hall, Kelvin and  Sekebo and they will make an arrangement for your statement to be taken.
Finally the programme has omitted to put down morning tea which will be at about 10h30, so we are not going to be sitting here all the way through till lunch time, there will be a break at 1030.  Also I am sure you have noticed this, on the last day it says Thursday the 26th of June, the last day is Wednesday, 26th June, thank you Chair.

DR BORAINE: We call the first witness - Maria Bahume and we invite her to come to the witness stand.

WENDY ORR: Ms Bahume, can you hear me?

MS BAHUME: Yes.

WENDY ORR: Would you stand to take the oath please.
MARIA BAHUME Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: Thank you, you may sit down.  I am now going to ask Ms Pumla Gobodo to help you to tell your story to us.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-25

DR BORAINE: Just an announcement, before we call the first witness.  You will have I hope in your possession, the head phones, channel one is Afrikaans, channel two is English, channel three is Xhosa.  Those of you who don't need them please make sure that people around you who will need them can borrow them from you.   Because obviously a large number of witnesses are going to speak in Xhosa and many people in the audience of course understand that.  So therefore they won't be needing these.
If  there - our  staff are moving around the floor, if you haven't got one of  these and you need them please if you can indicate and if we have any left we will certainly make sure that you get one.
If you point the box towards those black receivers, you'll find that your reception will be even better.  
Now Chairperson we call Sipho Joseph Sixishi and ask him please to come to the witness stand.
Mr. Sixishi can you hear me  all right on the earphones, can you hear my voice, can you hear the translation - it's okay.

MR SIXISHI: Okay.

DR BORAINE: Do you mind if I call you Sipho?

MR SIXISHI: No

DR BORAINE: Okay, I want to do that because I want you to relax is very cold you might be little nervous but you don't have to be because you are amongst friends.  And we are very grateful to you for coming today. Now could you please  keep that light on, at the bottom if you press the red - that's it  and just keep it like that.  Are you comfortable?

MR SIXISHI: Yes

DR BORAINE: All right, now, you have a particular story to tell us before I can hear that story and  the Commission can receive your story, we have to ask  you to take the oath.  So I'll be  very grateful  if you'll just stand for the taking of the oath.  
SIPHO JOSEPH SIXISHI Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, please take a seat again.  Your story starts I think in 1986 around about the month of May.   I'm going to try and talk with you as you tell your story but I want  it to be your story.  So you start and you tell us and if I need to,  I will interrupt you and ask you for some more explanation,  just to help us to make sure we understand it.  So will you please start and tell us who you are and  what happened in 1986. Thank you.

MR SIXISHI: I am Sipho Sixishi,  I stay at Ashton.   I'd  like to explain everything that happened in 1986 at Ashton.   Can I continue.

DR BORAINE: Yes you can.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

WENDY ORR: Mr Dyantyi can you hear me through the earphones - you've had a very long day, welcome - thank you for staying here the whole day and thank you for coming to tell your story.  Would you stand now to take the oath please.
AMOS DYANTYI Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: Thank you, you can sit down.  Mr Dyantyi I am going to help you tell the Commission and the audience your story this afternoon and it's a horrifying story of torture which you suffered in 1985.  At that time you were a member of the Civic Association and were involved in ANC activities and the ANC was obviously banned at the time, is that correct?

MR DYANTYI: XHOSA -

WENDY ORR: Can you tell us what happened that day when the police came and arrested you and took you away.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

DR BORAINE: It all remains for me then to thank you and your wife and your Minister, unfortunately I don't know his name so I can't use his name, but we are very grateful that he is with you today.   But I want to thank you and your wife for coming to tell us something of the heartbreak you have experienced.  
We have heard of your needs and of the condition of your wife and we will remember that and we will consider it when we try to see what the Commission can do to help you.
There are so many difficult things happening and it is very hard to find the words to express what is in our hearts but we want you to know that we care about you very deeply and that we are most grateful that even despite the pain and the horror you were able to come to this public place and tell us something about what happened in our country.  And the Commission is trying to do everything it can to make it possible that future young boys and girls will not have the same experience as you have had yourself happen.  Thank you again for coming and God bless you.

MR DYASI: Thank you very much, I would like to say last words.  I would request the Commission - is there anything that you can do like something like a financial support because the child is living with the grandmother because there is no-one to support her.
Secondly my wife was the one who was assisting me here and there but ever since 1985 she is unemployed and I am the only one who is working.  What I would like to know can't  she can get something like disability grant from the State as the one who was helping me.  Thank you.

DR BORAINE: [indistinct] thank you very much.  We have made a note - my colleagues have taken notes of what you have been saying and the needs you have expressed and we will certainly do everything we possibly can to help - thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

WENDY ORR: Good afternoon Mr Kariem, welcome here - is this your mother with you?

MR KARIEM: Ja.

WENDY ORR: Welcome to you, thank you for coming here to be with your son today.  Ridwaan you have indicated that you will take the affirmation.  So can I ask you now to stand.
RIDWAAN KARIEM Affirms to speak the truth

WENDY ORR: Thank you, I will now hand you over to Ms Mary Burton, who will help you tell your story.

MARY BURTON: Good afternoon and thank you again for coming to be with us.  Are you  going to speak Afrikaans?

MR KARIEM: Afrikaans.

MARY BURTON: So maybe you might want to put the earphones on.

MR KARIEM: Ja.

MARY BURTON: Yes, we heard this morning about some of the events in the schools in Worcester in 1985 and we would like you to tell us more about it and about your involvement in the activities around the school boycotts and then about your experiences of  being detained and assaulted.  You were very young at the time about 14 is that right.

MR KARIEM: Yes, that is correct.

MARY BURTON: You were at school at Esselen Park?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] being taken in the van - all of you were schoolchildren?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] Kariem you are giving us a very full picture of the build-up of the boycotts and its very interesting to hear, your memory is so vivid at time but if you could just try and pull it to your experiences, your actual assaults and the things that happened to you whilst you were detained.  You told us that you were detained for several periods in '85 and I think you were assaulted in '86 can you just give us those details.

MR KARIEM: During 1985 I was arrested on a Tuesday morning

MARY BURTON: [indistinct]  we understand about 1985,  just about 1986.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-25

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Falck, I want to just ask my colleagues if they have any questions.  We have the documentation that you've made available to us, before us and this is a case which the Commission is paying attention to.  We've received testimony this morning and we've taken account of your submission and I thank you for your time and your contribution and we will pay attention to this, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-26

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: [indistinct] evidence about his experience of torture in prison mentioned dr Van Heerden in a particular context which Wendy is going to explain and dr Van Heerden requested that the Commission gives him opportunity to make a statement in regards to the context in which he was mentioned.  So I give over to Wendy - thank you Wendy.

WENDY ORR: Thank you Chair, just to explain to you on Monday afternoon one of the witnesses  Mr Dyantyi  named dr Van Heerden and alleged that dr Van Heerden had colluded with police and giving the police advice about how to hide the fact that Mr Dyantyi had been tortured and how to make it appear that his condition was in fact due to other circumstances.
 I have spoken to dr Van Heerden a few times on the phone since and asked him if he would like to come and make a statement to the Commission because he denies that he ever acted in the way in which the witness alleged.  Unfortunately dr Van Heerden is very busy, he is operating this morning and then has a full list of  patients, so he has asked me to read out a statement on his behalf which I will now do.
Dit is onder my aandag gebring dat 'n persoon na bewering voor u getuig het dat ek advies sou gegee het skynbaar aan die polisie op welke wyse 'n persoon om die lewe gebring moet word.  Ek voel dit my plig om hiermee op rekord te plaas dat indien sodanige getuienis gelewer is, dit onwaar is.  Ek weet glad nie van die beweerde voorval nie, maar wil eerbiediglik vermeld en hiermee onomwonde stel dat sodanige optrede indruis teen my etiek as geneesheer, maar bowenal dat dit direk in stryd is met my diepste waardes as mens.
 And that's signed by dr Van Heerden.  I would also like it placed on record that a number of people from the community have come to us and said that dr Van Heerden is known in this community as a very caring and compassionate doctor.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Wendy and thank you all - shall we stand please as the witnesses leave for tea.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Worcester — 1996-06-24

DR BORAINE: [indistinct] to the Municipalities for supplying venues.  
 Before I introduce the team on my left and on my right, I just want to remind ourselves I suppose of the overall aims of the Commission.  A Commission which is dedicated to the search for truth in the hope of the contribution towards the reconciliation which we all long for and are working towards and have yet to realise fully in our country.
 One of the major aims of the Commission is to return to victims and survivors their civil and human rights which were taken away from them.  To restore to our country a moral order, to seek the truth and to make it known to the nation.  To create a culture of human rights and respect for the rule of law and in doing all of this, in the hope that we will never ever repeat some of the mistakes - the tragic mistakes we have made in the past.
 Some time ago I tried to put down on paper what my own personal hopes were for the Commission and I believe it is shared by the Commission itself and let me summarise in conclusion in this short introduction in putting it this way
Instead of revenge -  their will be reconciliation.
Instead of forgetfulness -  there will be knowledge and acknowledgement.
Instead of rejection -  there will be acceptance by an compassionate state.
Instead of violations of human rights -  there will be the restoration of a moral order and respect for the rule of law.
These are our aims and our hopes - you can make it possible by joining us in the quest. 
Now today we have on my left - far left Mr Denzil Potgieter - advocate Potgieter who is a Commissioner and a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee of the Commission.
Next to me is Dr Wendy Orr who is a Commissioner and a member of the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee as well as being the convenor of the Western Cape, therefore she is our boss so we have to listen to her very carefully as we move on.  She will keep us in order I hope.
On my far right which is hardly appropriate is Mary Burton who is a Commissioner and she is a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee.
Pumla who is I think well known to many of you in this area and has certainly been a tower of strength as a Committee member of the Commission, a Committee member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and we are delighted that she is with us right next to me here as well.
Now we will be receiving witnesses one at a time and they will be accompanied by what we call briefers.  It's an inadequate word.  It doesn't mean somebody who merely briefs another person - it is someone who cares for them - someone who is alongside them.  Someone who has been with them in the build up to today and will be with them during the hearing and after it as well.  So if you see somebody accompanying a witness you know that that person is somebody who is caring very specially for the witness for what can be quite a traumatic experience.
Once again you  are warmly welcome and I hand over now to Wendy Orr.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-04-10

THOMAS MANTHATA: What was this march for?

ROBERT MAKOGA: There were other comrades who were arrested in the, in the township.  So they were released and people were happy for their release.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So it was a march of celebrating their release?

ROBERT MAKOGA: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: No further questions.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, thank you Robert for coming forward to speak about this incident.  As you  said in your testimony, there was an inquest.  There's always supposed to be police inquest when a, when a death is not from natural causes, when it's unnatural and that there were people who were implicated and who were charged and that there, there was a case.   Throughout the, the, the cause of the work of the Commission, one of the things that has always been said by victims, and this is something which the Commission also agrees with, is they say that if this process of reconciliation is to mean anything then it's not only for those who have been victimized, not only for those who suffered gross human rights violations, to come forward or for their families to come forward but for those who committed violations.  The perpetrators ,the victimizers, to also come forward so that this process can be a complete process and that provision is made for perpetrators to the Amnesty Committee.  That the whole purpose of the Commission is not vengeance, it's not a witch hunt.  Notwithstanding what people have said.  It's really an attempt to try to deal with the conflicts of the past, to understand those conflicts and in that spirit to move forward.  So, the appeal that we constantly make is that those that have been implicated in gross human rights violations, those who know that they have been involved, that this is an opportunity for you to come forward through the amnesty process to explain your part and your role so that the survivors, be they the family members or the or the direct victims themselves, can start putting these events in, in the past.
 Your brother was, we know, was an important activist in his area.  That he was centrally involved in the whole fight to establish SRC's, Student Representative Councils against prefix systems which were seen as extensions of authoritarian structures and SRC's were seen as more representative and more democratic.  He was also involved in the initial steps to set up the United Democratic Front and those were some of the reasons why he did become a target.  Those are things which we have been able to establish.  So again, our appeal is to those who, who know what they did, to come forward and  to use the amnesty process so that the victims can also have some satisfaction and  can move on.   So, thank you very much for coming to, to speak to us.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

PIET LAMOLA: I would not understand because they were saying we should be incorporated in Boputhatswana and some of us we didn't agree to that.  Others said we belong to Boputhatswana, others said we don't belong to Boputhatswana.

MS SEROKE: When you say, when you said you were a member of the African National Congress, what was ANC do to that issue of incorporation ?

PIET LAMOLA: I don't understand you well.

MS SEROKE: You said to us you were a member of ANC.  What was ANC doing that ANC should not move out of their area ?

PIET LAMOLA: We,  whom we call ourselves ANC, we didn't want to be incorporated to Boputhatswana.

MS SEROKE: What did you do to show that you didn't want to go, to be incorporated?

PIET LAMOLA: We didn't want to be incorporated in Boputhatswana because we knew that if we may under Boputhatswana, they're going to remove us from our land.

MS SEROKE: Are the police still in Molilwa's yard ?

PIET LAMOLA: No they are not there.  I don't see them anymore.

MS SEROKE: Can you identify the police who assaulted you or, or the four boys who have assaulted you?  Are they still there ?

PIET LAMOLA: Yes, I know them.  I can identify.

MS SEROKE: Can you identify them ?  Do you know their names?

PIET LAMOLA: I know their names and I can identify them.

MS SEROKE: Are they still in your village?

PIET LAMOLA: Yes, they're still in the village.

MS SEROKE: Thank you, Mr Lamola.  I would hand over to the Chairperson.
PROF. MEIRING: ......... very briefly.  You're a pensioner, so you don't work anymore.  Do you have an income ?

PIET LAMOLA: I'm on pension.  I have an income, even if it's too little.  I'm not able to support my family with that money, because it does me  the pension I got is from railway, then every month I get two hundred and ninety.  It's too little to support my family.
PROF. MEIRING: .... is your family.  Your wife and your children, how many ?

PIET LAMOLA: I have six children, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: And they are all dependent upon you.  They're not working ?

PIET LAMOLA: There are some who are, there are those who are working but they're working just, you know, peace jobs, or temporary work but others are attending school and others are not attending school.
PROF. MEIRING: Thank you very much.  I have no more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamola, is there anything here else you'd like to say ?

PIET LAMOLA: I've nothing more to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamola, thank you very much then for coming to-day.  We're very pleased that you came and told us your story and also to try to help us understand what happened.  From what other people have said to-day, peace has definitely returned to the area which you are living in and the fact that you say that the four youths who attacked you still live in the area, indicates that some reconciliation has taken place.
 We have heard what you have said and your requests to the Commission and we will come back to you.  Thank you very much.

PIET LAMOLA: Thank you, Sir.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)
PROF. MEIRING: You may sit down.

UNKNOWN: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Tate.

UNKNOWN: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Joyce Seroke is going to be help you as you tell your story to us.  I hand over to her.

MS SEROKE: Thank you, Sir.  Mr Makganye, good morning.

UNKNOWN: Good morning, Ma'am.

MS SEROKE: We welcome you.  Thank you for, I welcome you also and together with the person with you.  You're coming to tell us  about the disappearance of Snowball on the 14th of April 1993.  I ask you that shortly explain to us what happened on that day.

UNKNOWN: On that day, there was a meeting at the Anglican Church.  It was a youth meeting in that church.  The agenda was about the project.  When they were there, still there, the police came.  They were led  by Mr Moletsani who was the leader of the police.  The chased out people outside the hall.  I was not there.  When Snowball went outside the hall, he raised his fist.  The police said, we don't want a person from Mandela.  Mr Moletsani hit with a baton.  Now I don't know the name of that baton, but they called it donkey pale(?).  Snowball was able to protect himself.  There's a certain boy called Motsepe.  He's a tall and stout man.  He hit him with a gun butt.  Snowball fell on the ground and there was a certain boy called Pelane who killed Snowball whilst he was on the ground.  Snowball fainted thereafter.  They took him to the police station, which was  in a area called Braklaagte.
 When he arrived there they put him a sack and they assaulted him there.  I'm disappointed because my, the witness who was there is not here.  He's sick and he's not present to-day.  If he was here I would ask for the opportunity for her to explain her side of the story.  When she was asking the police some questions about Snowball they said to her, why did you not call him, Snowball to order ? My wife said she, Snowball did not tell us where he was going.

MS SEROKE: What did he do ?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that Tate, but he is working, that's the important thing, that he has made that sort of recovery but thank you very much for coming and we will come back to you in due course.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Yes, there's something I want to say.  The last thing I want to say is.  I wanted to ask, on my behalf to Mr Mangope, that how did he come to Lekobo in our area.  Can you ask Mr Mangope, because many things which has happened at home, if it was not because of him we could not have been in the problems we have.  There could not have been somebody who has been crippled.  So, can you ask Mr Mangope and Captain Selike.  To ask them why did they send police in our area, because we were living in peace and there were no conflict before.  There could not have been a person who has been crippled but immediately they entered our village, the conflict started.  We were living in peace but immediately they came, that's when we started to have problems.    I thought maybe if were, as I was saying this,  Mr Selike or Mr Mangope,  they could have been here,  they could have been here, so that they should be asked many questions that, what, what  were the reasons to them to come to Lekobo, because it seems they are responsible for our suffering.  That, that's the thing which disturbed me all the time.  There was no - there, there were no houses which were burnt before and there were no people who were killed before but immediately they came in, the people were incarcerated, they were imprisoned and our parents were staying in the veld and others were running to, to the location.

CHAIRPERSON: John, thank you very much.  I don't think any words can describe what happened to you at the time and I'm sure what has happened to you since.  You have so eloquently  said what your family situation is at the moment and I hope that within the new South Africa there is place for you to actually continue some form of education and to be able to get a job.  I'm sure that Professor Meiring has listened very carefully in terms of your needs and in time we will come back to you on that.  We wish you well in the future.  Thank you very much for coming.

JOHN MOKGATLANYANE: Thank you, Sir.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

MS SEROKE: We heard much about this police station which was in Motswedi.  Is it in your area or is it in Zeerust ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: It's on the other side of  Lefurutse.

MS SEROKE: Is he still there ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Yes, he's still there.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Rantao, thank you very, very much for coming.  We see and we hear your suffering.  To have lost a son at such a young age and still not knowing where he is, must be frightening.  I want to appeal actually to-day that to many of the people who was sitting here, because we've heard many stories from Legobo to-day, that if there's anybody here to-day who can give us any information about this young man, I think that the opportunity is here.  We can, we can take that information from you.  Our statement takers are at the back of the hall and it will greatly assist our enquiries and certainly it will help Mrs Rantao in her suffering.  So please, if there's anybody who knows as to what happened to this young man, if you can come forward.  I thank you very much Mrs Rantao for coming to-day.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Sefularo, before I come to thank you for coming to-day, can I just ask your impressions of, first of all why were there so many, why were the school boycotts going on in your area at that time?  Why was there a school boycott in the area?

NTEBANG SEFULARO: I don't know the reasons behind the school boycotts.

CHAIRPERSON: And also could I just come to the question of the ANC.  The ANC
had just been legalised in the rest of the country.  In Boputhatswan, if you remember the Government had declared a state of emergency which was only lifted in March of 1991.  In fact some of the organisations that were functioning in the then Mmabhata, to-day's  Mafeking, were demanding for free political expression to take place in Boputhatswana.  Do you remember any of that at all and your impressions of that as a supporter of Mr Mangope's party ?

NTEBANG SEFULARO: I'm not able to tell you anything about Mr Mangope and his party and all his political activities because so many things happened then.  I don't want to tell about things which I just heard.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't have any other questions.  Is there anything you would like to say before I finish ?

NTEBANG SEFULARO: There's nothing more I want to add, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Sefularo, thank you very, very much for coming to-day.  For me, your story exemplifies what happened in many communities of our country.  People in small villages, in big towns became divided.  On the one side because many of our people were not allowed to express what they wanted and what they demanded in terms of their political expressions and on the other side, some people who supported a particular movement at times became targets as well, and your daughter, like so many other children in our country became victims.  A young person of eighteen who to-day would have been contributing greatly to the development of this particular region of our country, lost her life and you lost a daughter and your family, your  daughters  and  sons  lost a  sister.  We're  very  sorry  to hear about that.
 We thank you for coming here to-day and we will come back to you.  I'm going  to ask for a tea break at this stage, but before I do that I just want to welcome some people to our hearing to-day.  The Premier of the North West Region, Mr Popo Molefe, welcome Sir, Mr Mike Ntolo who is the MEC for Public, no sorry, he's not he's just part of your constituency, sorry, Mr George Batsedulang and Councilor Majoro.  We also have Mayoress, Mrs Sophie Leber, Lebercoro, sorry, Ugone.  Welcome to all of you.  I'm also going to take the opportunity of asking the Premier who has come to almost all the hearings of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to come forward and say a few words.  We would like to give you the opportunity Sir, to do, to say to people here to-day.
(clapping of hands)
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Segobodi, that you  very much for coming and telling us what happened to you.  It was clearly an ordeal that you don't want to live through again.  We will be hearing many other stories from the area that you come from this afternoon.  So thank you very, very much for coming and, and maybe helping us understand what happened in your area.  I would like to suggest that we stop for lunch and return at two thirty please, thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you people, can we proceed ?  I want to start off by apologizing  to all those people who have come and want to make a statement.  We were expecting statement takers to come from Rustenburg, but they haven't arrived yet.  I will, I will continue to make announcements, either if they do come or if they don't come, as what we're going to do to help you make your statement.  I just want to reassure you that your statement will be taken, so please don't get anxious about that.  Thank you.  Mr Seroke, good afternoon.

MR SEROKE: Good afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seroke, will you introduce the young man that is with you ?

MR SEROKE: He's Mr Frans Peko.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he a friend of yours ?

MR SEROKE: That's my friend Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome him too.  I'm going to ask Professor Piet Meiring to take the oath with you, if you can just stand please.
PROF. MEIRING: Mr Seroke stand and your hand in the air please and say, everything I say will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

MOSIMANEGAPI SEROKE: (Sworn states)
PROF. MEIRING: Thank you very much.  You may sit down.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Joyce Seroke is going to help you as you tell your statement.  Miss Seroke ?

MS SEROKE: Good morning, Sir.

MR SEROKE: Good morning, Ma'am.

MS SEROKE: Are you Soreko or Sereko ?

MR SEREKO: My name, my surname is Sereko. It has been spelt wrongly.  They gave me my surname.

MS SEROKE: I thought you were my brother.  We thank you for coming and we welcome your friend, who accompanied you.  You are coming to tell us of what has happened on the 14th of December 1989 in Lefurutse when you and Jopa Ndebele were assaulted by the police.  We ask you to explain to us what was happening at that time.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr  Sereko, for coming here to-day.  Your story is a very complicated story, but it shows up again the brutality of the police and we will be hearing many stories of what the police did in this area, during to-day and to-morrow.
I'm glad you've, you've survived to tell the story and thank you very much for coming here to-day.
Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-07

MR MONDANE: Ja, it is a pity that we are trying to isolate this into something like a neat package. There could not have been any neat package here, because there are many other incidents that have happened in the past, not only in 1991 or 1994, sorry, or in 1993 or any, but which happened in the Sixties, for instance.
 Now if we are going to adopt that kind of argument, it would be called upon to account for every incident.  Now in a war situation there are major incidents and in others less major incidents.  Now it is unfortunate that you insist on isolating just a few incidents, and ignoring, I mean, the gamut of all the operations that have taken place under the auspices of APLA.  Let us just not paraphrase ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mondane, can I just remind you that you yourself have isolated them in your report on that paragraph. I am only quoting from your presentation.
Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-10

MR NTSEBEZA: As Dr Boraine indicated earlier, he will not be joining us this afternoon.  Mr Lax will be joining us in a moment. Advocate Goosen, maybe before you begin, there's something that I would like the delegation to deal with which Minister Maharaj alluded to in passing, because it really came out in yesterday's proceedings in particular, and that was namely that when it became clear, now that was the position as it was put to us, when it became clear that lawful methods of containing what was perceived to be a revolutionary situation inside the country by ordinary legal means in the form of arrests and detentions, the attitude of the security forces was that revolutionary and unconventional methods should be resorted to in order to deal with the situation, because there were various levels of trying to explain what unconventional and revolutionary methods meant.  It seemed to us that one of the interpretations stripped of all verbiage was that unlawful methods could be resorted to and the whole debate about eliminating, neutralising and stuff like that came up.
 Now can you give a comment, seeing that it was in fact a comment on what was perceived to be your way of waging the struggle that gave rise to a change in tactics of combatting?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you very much Chairperson.  May I just before responding just ask once more for the formulation that says from the Generals' side, when did they say, under what conditions did they say they had to begin to use this so-called unconventional methods?

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe Advocate Goosen should indicate in context.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson. As I understood the testimony,  they didn't indicate any specific period as to when that applied, but it was in the context of the understanding of operatives within the Security Police as to how they understood the approaches that they could adopt through the eighties and they weren't specific as to at what point that necessarily came into play.
 But there was a more general context raised that the period late 1985 and from then onwards in response to what were perceived to be shifts in the MK's revolutionary strategy, they recognised the need to themselves shift their strategy which would then include the use of unconventional methods inside the country.
Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: General Viljoen, I apologise for interrupting you, I'm just trying to decide how much of this you're going to read because we have a very full day as I think I indicated.  We've already had well over an hour and I'm just wondering - I'm sure you've other points to make and there is no way that we can follow this entirely without careful study.  We appreciate very much the thoughtfulness in providing this for us but I would suggest that we have to look to the timetable.  It's now a quarter past 10 or thereabouts, do you think you could finish within the next half hour - entirely?

GEN VILJOEN: Chairperson if I do, then maybe I will rush through it.  Can I ask what is the possibility of adding some of my time for late this afternoon onto this?  I think this is very important and I'm now building up to the development of the Southern Africa situation and also the internal situation and I think this is for the sake of the discussion of a force's hearing, absolutely crucial.  Maybe I will need another 45 minutes, I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I suggest that you try to summarise where possible, without reading every paragraph and let's try to finish at a quarter to 11 and then we can have additional time later this afternoon.

GEN VILJOEN: Can I just enquire Chairperson, am I speaking too fast for the sake of translation - are they having difficulty, because I'm inclined to speak very fast.  And I'm deliberately trying to slow down because I realise that there is translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me find out if ...[inaudible]  No, they say you - so you can keep at the same speed, thank you.  And if we could then try to finish, say by a quarter to 11 and then take whatever is remaining later this afternoon, thank you very much.
Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

BORAINE: As you know this is a vast document and there are many many questions that one would like to pursue but we will have an opportunity to do that through the nodal point but let me finish with one last question and that is to your knowledge did the SADF ever carry out any operations that were designed to look as though they had been carried out by the enemy or the opposition.  We know that it is on record that the police did.  Did the SADF use that as part of its strategy.

MORTIMER: Again I must say to my personal knowledge no and based again on what's here we haven't said anything about it.  I accept no but again open to further investigation.

BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Let me again on behalf of the Commission thank both you and Major General Klopper for being with us for a very long time, for the very long report, for your presentation which is very demanding and tiring and we look forward to continuing the discussion with you and your colleague and in the hope that through this discussion and debate and questions the transformation which has already started and is now in the SANDF will continue and will grow, thank you very much indeed.  The session is now adjourned.
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-11

DR RANDERA: Let me introduce my colleagues.  Over there is Russel Ally, he is a committee member of our Human Rights Violations Committee and he is based here in Gauteng and Mdu who is also a member of our Human Rights Violations Committee, he's based in our KZN, KwaZulu Natal and Freestate.  Fazel Randera is a Commissioner and a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee.  He is also our bossman here in the Gauteng office. We have to touch or forelock each time we see him. Alex Boraine who is the Deputy Chairperson of the Commission, he and I are based in Cape Town, Bongani Finca is a Commissioner and member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and he is in charge of our office and region in the Eastern Cape based in East London. Hlengiwa Mkhize a commissioner in the chair of the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee and is based here in Gauteng.  Now you want to
Thank you Father, can I just introduce our researchers and our special guest for today, Dr Morlene Nkosi is now the MD of Morley Nkosi, the associates.  He has studied in the United States of America in the pass with a Bsc in Economics at New York University an MBA from Rudgers and a Phd from the new school for social research.  He was a former university professor and development consultant.  Dr Nkosi will be summing up at the end of the day and we would like to warmly welcome him.
 I also want to introduce Simon Segal who has been employed by the Commission as a researcher for the special hearing and Ms Tracy Steyn who is visiting us from the United States of America and has been assisting us as well as a researcher for this hearing. Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are.  Professor Sampie Terblanche.  Dr Boraine will administer the oath.

PROF TERBLANCHE: (sworn states)
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-11

MR HAYWARD: If I may Mr Abar Omar, he's the group general manager, corporate communications; Mr Helias Fiyega, who's our company secretary.  We may all be talking so I think we all need to take the oath.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Would you stand then please.  Dr Boraine administers the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Dr Russel Ally.  Oh no, no. Yes well I mean you might do a little spiel.  No, okay, keep quiet.  It's your turn and then Russell will be the one who will lead us in asking questions.
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: We are deeply grateful to you Professor, for helping us to have this clearer picture, the historical perspective.  I'm very grateful to all of you, who have come and all who have participated and shared and we want to thank our interpreter and the people involved with the technical business.
 How can you do that to me, after praising you like this
And thank you one and all we are all grateful.  We resume at .  I will 
happily not be here, you resume at a earlier, half past eight.  
Thank you very much.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-12

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Johan Rupert, good morning and welcome are you the sole representative for the Rembrandt Group today?  Mr Rupert, you've come to a speak to a very personal submission by your father on the company that he has a very large interest in and the history of that company.  Thank you for coming all the way from Cape Town, can you please stand to take the oath.  Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Welcome Mr Rupert, would you take the oath, or affirmation?

JOHAN RUPERT: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure you've heard me through the morning, talking about discipline and time, in the business world that's what you live with.  I'm going to give you twenty minutes to talk to the submission and another twenty minutes for questions.
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-12

CHAIRPERSON: We have got interpreters, yes.  The service is available.  If people require these little boxes and head - ear phones, please can that be provided from our lady over there.
 Can we do this as quickly as possible?  No, I don't think so.  We have very few on the chairs.  I'm sorry.
AFRIKAANS HANDELSINSTITUUT:  PRESENTATION

MR VAN WYK: ... read this document while I was president and I've been mandated to speak on behalf of the AHI.  On my left is Mr Jacob de Villiers, the executive officer and Mr Johan Myburgh, the present president and Dr Amanda Hamilton, our chairperson of the communications.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Wyk.  We would just like you to stand to take the oath again.

MR VAN WYK: I'll take it on my own.

CHAIRPERSON: The others are not speaking?

MR VAN WYK: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN WYK: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Wyk.  Will you proceed?  Sorry, let me just tell you that you've got 20 minutes to present and 20 minutes for questioning.
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-12

CHAIRPERSON: Ann, thank you very very much.  I don't think  - and I've (indistinct) everybody by my looks, but thanks for coming.
 It's clear that you've actually stirred up more controversy than - of course helped us in the process of understanding.  Certainly for myself your unbundling on this issue of business not being a (indistinct) has actually helped me.
 Thank you very much, indeed.
 We call the Anti-Apartheid Debt Committee to the - sorry.  While Komie Naidoo and his colleagues are getting - sitting down, can I please try to assure groups that are still coming that have actually read their submissions and if you can summarise and bring up the pertinent points that you want to get across.
 I'm going to give you 15 minutes for your presentation and then 15 minutes for questions.
 Komie, will you please start by introducing - oh sorry, can you please introduce your group to us.
ANTI-APARTHEID DEBT COMMITTEE:  PRESENTATION

RAMS RAMASHIA: Yes.  Good afternoon.  My name is Rams Ramashia.  I'm the President of the South African National (indistinct) Coalition, SANCOCO for short.  I'm accompanied by Komie Naidoo who is the executive director of SANCOCO and Reverend Dr Multi Fetzili from ASSET.
 I would like to thank the TRC for this opportunity ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Sir, before you - before I - can I just ask you to take the oath or the affirmation.  Which one?  Are all of you going to speak?  If you are;  can you all stand and Dr Boraine will help you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, gentlemen and welcome as well from me.  Would you take the oath or the affirmation?
(indistinct and laughter)

<UNKNOWN>: Well George, should I do the affirmation.

DR BORAINE: That's a typical NGO, on both sides of the fence.  Let's take the affirmation then and this is serious.

RAMS RAMASHIA: (Duly sworn in, states).

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, but just keep in mind the 15 minutes which I expressed in the beginning.

RAMS RAMASHIA: Okay.  Once again I would like to thank the eminent and distinguished commissioners of the TRC and to thank you for the opportunity to make this submission.
 Our submission should be seen in the context of the Apartheid Debt Campaign led by SANCOC with its more than ten thousand members and supported by the labour movement, the church organisations, the Human Rights Commission, student organisations and a range of NGO's including Fair Share, AIDC and ASSET.
 Our submission should be seen against the background of the fact that financial support for the Apartheid system by lending institution both foreign and international, have contributed towards ensuring that this morally vile and (indistinct) system of Apartheid flourishes.
 It provided means and opportunities for gross violation of human rights.  Komie Naidoo, my colleague would do the substantial part of the submission which will be complemented the Reverend, Dr Muli Fetzili.
 I would like to hand over to my colleague.
Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-12

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Cassim and Mr Crawford-Browne.  It's been a long day and I appreciate you having sat through this and your summing up at the end.
 Thank you ladies and gentlemen.  We will recommence at eight thirty tomorrow morning.
HEARING ADJOURNS