Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

BONGANI KHUMALO: I called him to the place where I stabbed this white man and I called him to - I wanted him to show me where the keys were.  He told me that the keys were with him.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did he give you the keys?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He showed me the keys, he showed me where they were on his person.  I actually called him to search this man.  He didn't, he just showed me where the keys were, that they were in the back pocket.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why couldn't you yourself have searched the man?  He was already dead.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, he did not search him, he just pointed.  He said at the back pocket and I did the searching.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you Mr Coetzer, you may proceed.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, you have just told us ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR COETZER: You have just told us that you went to the farm based upon information that you received regarding the vulnerability of the farm, is that correct?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I went to that farm because it was the closest, that was due to the discussions with my Commander.  In other words, I'm the person who went there after I have received information from Jabulani.

MR COETZER: Where did you meet Jabulani Tshabalala?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I explained that I met him on the same farm in Reitz.

MR COETZER: But am I correct in understanding that you understood - that you went to that specific farm based upon information that you received from Tshabalala?

BONGANI KHUMALO: At that time I had not received information about the house.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't follow.  The legal representative said that you said just a minute or two ago, that you went to that farm because of information you received from Tshabalala.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, in other words I'm referring to the house now.  I did not go to - not the house, not the farm, maybe we did not understand each other quite well on that issue.  I was talking about the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, start all over again, because I did not understand you.  I understood you as the legal representative has.

BONGANI KHUMALO: I explained that when I arrived at that farm in Reitz, I met Jabulani Tshabalala.  Jabulani Tshabalala gave me the information about the farmhouse.  I don't know whether it's clear now.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, he gave you the information that evening as he was seated by the fire, is that correct?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, we were now sitting down chatting and during the day I had also seen myself.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, did you need to procure weapons for the struggle?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR COETZER: What weapons did you obtain Mr Khumalo?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Those I saw in the safe were these long guns and we normally call them pump guns.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, in other words you are referring to a shot gun?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I don't understand what you mean.

MR COETZER: Was the weapon in the safe a shot gun?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, they were long guns.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo you testified that you received a 9mm and an AK47 and when you were examined regarding shot guns, you said no.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir the guns that I saw I had never seen before and I'd never used them for training, that's why I'm calling them pump guns.

MR COETZER: Is it correct that there were only two weapons in the safe?

BONGANI KHUMALO: No, Sir, there were not only two.

MR COETZER: And that it was only a 303 and an air gun?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I dispute that Sir, it was quite a number of guns.

MR COETZER: How can there be a number of weapons in the safe if the deceased possessed only two guns, namely a 303 and an air gun?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, I want to stress, what I saw was a number of guns, they were in two rows.  There was a row at the back and there were others here to the front.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, the safe, describe it to us.  If you open the door were the weapons packed on the left and the right sides, or from the back to the front?

BONGANI KHUMALO: They were packed in a row, Sir.  This safe is this big and they were in a row and there were others in the front row.

MR COETZER: Very well Mr Khumalo, you now have the ideal opportunity to obtain weapons for your organisation.  Why did you take the smaller of the two weapons?

JUDGE DE JAGER: The smaller of the two, or the smaller of the lot because according to him there were at least two rows of weapons.  Could he perhaps give us an indication of how many weapons there would have been in these two rows?  10, 20, 30, how many?

BONGANI KHUMALO: If I'm estimating, there could have been 8 or 7.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Can you then answer the question of why you took only the air gun?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I took a gun so that I could defend myself when getting out and I knew if I do escape and I manage to reach the township, I would not run with firearms that are not covered and maybe I could be summoned, the police could be summoned to come and arrest me, so that was my fear.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the instruction from Makwara that you should take anything that was to be of benefit to the struggle?   What about your instruction now?  Had you forgotten about it?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I did not forget the instruction Sir, but what remains behind is, when you do something you check as to whether is this right when I approach it this way, is it wrong when I approach it this way?  Now at that time I noticed that I do not have any chance to do anything.  The accused had see Anna Magwa getting into the other house, so I noticed I did not have a chance, so I had to leave the farm running.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Coetzer are there any other aspects that you wish to cover?

MR COETZER: Just one aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo you were aware that the deceased was going to sell his farm - sold tobacco on his farm (correction).

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, I learned on that day when we were chatting.

MR COETZER: What sort of work did you do at that stage?

BONGANI KHUMALO: What kind of work was I doing?  Are you referring, was I employed?  I don't understand your question.

MR COETZER: Were you employed or unemployed?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was unemployed Sir.

MR COETZER: So you were looking for money?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Are you telling me Sir, or are you asking me?

CHAIRPERSON: It is a question Sir, were you looking for money?  It's a question, you can't make a mistake about that.

BONGANI KHUMALO: No, I did not want money.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but on the same aspect, did you have any source of income?  How did you manage to live if you were unemployed?

BONGANI KHUMALO: My parents were sustaining me, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Were your parents employed?  Were they working people?  Did they have an income?

BONGANI KHUMALO: My father was working.

ADV SANDI: What was the position about Daniel Makwara, was he employed?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I think he was working Sir.

ADV SANDI: Where did he work?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I do not recall.

ADV SANDI: I didn't get the last bit.  Did you say you don't know remember where he was employed?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He was an APLA member and I thought he was working.

ADV SANDI: What do you mean by that?  Do you mean employed by APLA?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I mean to be an APLA members, yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, so your primary motive that day was not politically oriented, you were looking for money?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is not correct, Sir.  If ever we wanted money, we would have tried many other avenues and we did not ransack the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't money have benefited your organisation?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It would, Sir, had I laid my hands on it.