Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

MR VISSER: Yes.  You exited the next day, is that correct from Swaziland?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: I want to ask you, did you enter and exit Swaziland, you, yourself on valid passports and travel documents?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I had a false South African passport.

MR VISSER: And Du Preez?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: A false South African passport as well Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And you entered and exited both ways, on the false passports?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What did you do after you had exited at Culel the next, I am sorry, where did you exit the next morning?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We exited at Culel.

MR VISSER: At Culel, and where did you then go?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We proceeded to the house at Onverwacht border post.

MR VISSER: Yes, where you found Steyn and Botha and Forster and Ms Ndwandwe, is that correct?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct, sir.

MR VISSER: Did you participate in her interrogation at all?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, not Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And thereafter, you left for a farm in the Elandskop area in Pietermaritzburg, is that correct?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct sir.

MR VISSER: With which vehicle did you travel?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: In the minibus.

MR VISSER: The kombi?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: The kombi bus.

MR VISSER: And was Botha and Ndwandwe also in the kombi?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Was anybody talking to her, interrogating her during the trip from Swaziland to Pietermaritzburg?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Botha was having discussions with her in the kombi.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Did you listen to the contents of those discussions?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I was unable to listen due to the aboarding between the front and the back, I couldn't hear the conversation.

MR VISSER: After arriving at the farm, at Pietermaritzburg, did you there participate in any interrogation of Ndwandwe?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I took part in some questioning of Ms Ndwandwe Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Was she assaulted at any time during her interrogations where you were present?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No, she was not Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: All right.  Did you know what the decision was in her regard, what was going to happen to her?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I was aware of the situation in that regard Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: When did you become aware?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: From the outset Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: From the outset?  And eventually it transpired that she would not, she was not willing to cooperate with the police and certain orders were given?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct sir.

MR VISSER: As far as you are concerned, what were those orders?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I was asked by Mr Taylor, to eliminate Ms Ndwandwe.

MR VISSER: Yes, would you just tell us what happened?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: He told me that it was really now, Du Preez and I took her outside of the house, to where the grave had been dug previously.

MR VISSER: By whom?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: By Du Preez and myself sir.

MR VISSER: All right.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We took her outside, the grave was about 60 metres from the house's verandah.  Once she was outside, just beyond the verandah, I rendered her unconscious with a heavy blow.

MR VISSER: Using?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Using a wooden riot baton, police riot baton.

MR VISSER: Police baton, all right.  Did you then carry her?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: She was immediately unconscious and Du Preez and I then carried her to the grave that was dug in amongst the trees.

MR VISSER: Did you take her clothes off?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We then placed Ms Ndwandwe in the grave, half way, sort of half way in.  I then fired a single shot into her head.

MR VISSER: Yes.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: From here, she was dead.  We then undressed her.

MR VISSER: Why was that done?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: For clothing and identification purposes.  Clothing could be identified at a later stage.

MR VISSER: Did you then place her in the bottom of the grave?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: We then placed her in the bottom of the grave and began to fill it in.

MR VISSER: What with Mr Wasserman?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: First put in a layer of some white lime, some building type lime.

MR VISSER: Why was that done?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That takes away any smell through the soil for wild animals or for smelling purposes.

MR VISSER: Before you placed that over the body, did you also place some plastic bags or agricultural bags over the body?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that was done slightly at a later stage.

MR VISSER: All right, please continue.  You then started filling in, is that what you are saying?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes, there was first the lime and then filled up and then some rubbish bags were placed in on top.

MR VISSER: Refuse bags?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Refuse bags, yes.

MR VISSER: All right.  Anything else?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: The bags were there should anybody have a look or see anything indentations in that area, one would presume it was a little bit of a dump there Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, and would then hopefully stop digging?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: And hopefully avoid it.

MR VISSER: You were also involved in the matter of Cele?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct sir.

MR VISSER: Which was very, as the Honourable Chairman has pointed out, a very similar situation to the present one, the one of Ndwandwe?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct sir.

MR VISSER: When you say refuse bags, does it include also refuse that was placed somewhere as a layer over the grave?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I can't recall that explicitly, but there would have been some refuse in the bag, I would imagine sir.

MR VISSER: When the - after the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act was passed, you decided to apply for amnesty and is it correct that you did afford your cooperation to the Investigation Unit of the TRC in order to assist them inter alia in pointing out the place, the spot, where she was buried?  I am referring to bundle 4 Mr Chairman?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And there is in bundle 4, at page 452, there is a diagram indicating the direction of the travel of the projectile which killed Ms Ndwandwe in the right hand top corner and the right hand bottom corner?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I see that Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Would that accord with your recollection of how you fired the shot into her head?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: After you had completed that, and the grave had been filled in, what did you then do?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Myself and Du Preez returned to the house sir.

MR VISSER: And you then left?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Am I correct in assuming then that you did not, you were not part of the decision makers in regard to this incident?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You followed orders, but you agreed with the contents of the orders?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: For reasons which you already told the Committee?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct sir.

MR VISSER: Did you know Mr Labuschagne and Mr Verwey?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I do know them sir.

MR VISSER: And you noticed them there that day, questioning Ms Ndwandwe?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Were they present at the time when she was murdered?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Not at all Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, you were also involved in the elimination of Mr Pumeso Nxiweni, is that correct?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And if I understand correctly, you arrived on the afternoon of the 5th of November 1988, with Taylor at the safe house at Verulam?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Where you discovered Nxiweni being held by Botha, Van der Westhuizen and Du Preez?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct sir.

MR VISSER: Will you please tell the Committee what transpired after you had arrived?