Amnesty Hearings — East London — 2000-02-03

MR KOOPEDI: In fact if this is correct for record purposes you told him more than once, I'm referring to your superior, Van der Bank, you told him more than once that we are being shot at, is that correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I told him that the marchers are coming, are storming to us so what must do?  Simultaneously I heard a shot, I said now the marchers are shooting, so what we must do?  He said if the marchers are shooting at you shoot back.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.

ADV SANDI: When you stopped talking to Mr van der Bank were they still shooting at you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.

ADV SANDI: You still give the order that your group should shoot at the marchers?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I think the order to my deputy that minimum force fire because the crowd was storming at us and then we have no other weapons to use to stop the crowd.

ADV SANDI: How long did this conversation between yourself and Mr van der Bank take, how long was it?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I cannot say, it's just to say one zero digit two zero, the marchers are shooting at us now, what to do and then he said if the marchers are shooting at you, fire.  Shoot back.  So it was that time, I cannot say at least how many minutes or how many seconds.

ADV SANDI: You heard two shots coming from the direction of the marchers?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: How long did that take, those two shots from the first shot to the second shot, how long was that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It was a ...(indistinct) shooting.

ADV SANDI: Could be about a second?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chair.  Now there is something I also need to understand in that you were the officer in charge, is that correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now did you have any powers in terms of decision making, could you have decided - did you have any powers?  Could you make a decision?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I got the powers to make a decision.

MR KOOPEDI: Did these powers have a limit, I'm asking this question because you did not make the decision yourself to shoot at what you thought, you know, was an aggressor, you asked for assistance from higher authority.  Now I need to determine, I need to understand why would you do that if you had powers to make decisions on the ground?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes on the ground the powers that I had, I mean the order that I received from the authority is that we must stop the crowd at any cost, we must not withdraw.

MR KOOPEDI: Yes I understand that but my question is that what powers did you have, particularly because you are being stormed at, you believe you're also being shot at but you cannot make a decision.  This sounds like a person whose capacity is handicapped.  That is to me, that's why I need to understand, if you had powers why would you then first have to call Van der Bank who is not even on the scene, for him to tell you what to do?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I must comply with his orders first before I can take my decision on what must I do now on the ground.

MR KOOPEDI: Does it therefore mean that you did not have the powers to decide on shooting, to make a decision that we can now shoot?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes at that stage I have no powers as to what must I do now because that's why I ask to Colonel van der Bank that what must we do now.

MR KOOPEDI: Which means that the situation as it unfolded created a predicament for you.  You then did not know what to do, meaning that your powers would have come to an end?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I think so, yes Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the other thing I need to understand is why would you then give Major Mbene an order that use minimal force, this is not what Van der Bank ordered you?  Or did he?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No he said just shoot.

MR KOOPEDI: He said shoot back?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now I need to understand why then did you give a different order, why did you say use minimal force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I must that's why I cannot say just shoot because he will not understand what I'm saying, I must specify that, which type of fire must he use.

MR KOOPEDI: Even though Van der Bank didn't tell you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes because he had given an overall, saying fire, so I must specify it, how must I fire as I see the situation on the ground.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, the people who were perhaps within sight, your sight, how many of them did you see opening fire?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It was the platoon on my right hand side.

MR KOOPEDI: Which could be all of them, all of them in the platoon?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I think so because there were 36.

MR KOOPEDI: There were 36?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Who conveyed the message or the order to the 36?  I'm referring to those that were within your sight, who conveyed the order to them?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It's Major Ndandiso.

MR KOOPEDI: Major Ndandiso?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: But did you hear him convey the order?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.

MR KOOPEDI: You assume he did?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now there are other people who were shot elsewhere, you know, not within your sight.  Do you know if Major Ndandiso also told the other people to shoot?  That is at the different other places like the Fort Hare part, the parliamentary part?  Did you hear him tell those people to shoot?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I have no knowledge of that.

MR KOOPEDI: And did you when you told, when you passed the order to Major Mbene, I need to understand your intention, to whom was the fire intended?  Was it only intended towards the crowd that was storming you or was it intended to everyone?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It was intended to the crowd that was storming to that side of Major Mdene, to those troops of Major Ndandiso.

MR KOOPEDI: Now do I understand you correctly then if I would say that the other soldiers who opened fire were actually not acting under your order?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

MR KOOPEDI: Would I then be correct to say that if they were not acting under your order, they did it on their own and if they've killed anyone that was not in accordance with your order?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Would I then be correct to say that you are not applying for amnesty of the injuring and the killing of other people, you know, other than the people whom were fired at or shot at as per your command?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: I understand.  I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.  Mr Mapoma have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
	You said in your evidence in chief that your instructions were to defend Bisho premises at all costs, at all cost.  What do you mean by at all cost?  What did you understand that to mean?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: My understanding that I must defend the Bisho premises in any way.  I must use every power that I have, every weapon that I have in my possession.  I can put it in that way, that's my belief, that's my understanding of at any cost.

MR MAPOMA: Would that include shooting at people?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you ordered that minimum force be used was that still in the course of that all cost?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I can say Sir it was on the way that the people were storming to the troops, the life of the troops and our lives were in danger because we had no other way to protect ourself at that situation.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you say - so you gave this order of minimal force in order to defend your lives is that what you mean?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR MAPOMA: So the only order that you gave is an order for self defence and nothing else?