Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, yes, we did later, but upon our first day of arrival here, we went to a holiday facility on the coast, where we stayed in a holiday house.  After the first day there, I decided that it wasn't appropriate to have two bakkies there which contained all these weapons, although we could lock the bakkies, it was very easy to break the locks to these bakkies, and we needed a facility where we could lock up these vehicles, because I didn't have a fixed date or hour upon which I was to hand over these weapons.  This was spread out over a period of three to four days, and I needed a place where I would be able to secure these vehicles much better, and that is when we went to stay in the cabanas, after determining that there were lock up garages there in which we could secure the vehicles and keep them out of sight.

MR LAMEY: Very well, Mr Nortje will also state that there were actually two Vlakplaas groups, the one group consisted of Ras and Baker and Hoffman, they didn't know about this operation and they went on an overt, apparently normal, task to East London?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: But you did stay in the cabanas on the beach front ultimately, you and Nortje while Vermeulen and the others stayed in a holiday resort?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, Warrant Officer Nortje and I definitely, however, I do recall vaguely that Snyman and Vermeulen also stayed in the cabanas so that I could have them closer to the vehicles.

MR LAMEY: I would just like to put it to you that Nortje's recollection is that before the delivery of the weapons to Duli and his people took place, upon a particular afternoon, you met Clive Brink and Nieuwoudt, Brink is also a former member of DCC, you met them at a hotel opposite the Holiday Inn in East London.

EUGENE DE KOCK: That was the day of the coup, it was that afternoon.  That is the afternoon during which we met Brink and Nieuwoudt.

MR LAMEY: That has to do with the coincidental meeting after the coup?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct yes.

MR LAMEY: My instructions in this regard are that Nortje states that there could possibly have been a second occasion after the failed coup which he cannot recall specifically, although he stated that before the coup and the delivery of the weapons, you also met Brink and Nieuwoudt at a hotel opposite the Holiday Inn?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, the hotel opposite the Holiday Inn is the Osner Hotel.

MR LAMEY: Yes, it is that specific hotel.

EUGENE DE KOCK: And Craig Duli and another person who was a member of the Transkeian Foreign Affairs Department, also had a hotel room there, and it was there that we liaised with Duli.  Brink and Nieuwoudt were not present.  I know that after the execution of the coup, the Security Police of East London traced all the telephone records of that room, and among others, they found records that there had been liaison with the Security Police in Port Elizabeth.  If I have it correctly, however, we did not find Anton Nieuwoudt, nor Brink there.  I didn't see them.

MR LAMEY: Mr Nortje's recollection as he mentions in his amnesty affidavit, is that there was a request or at least, let me get to this first, he stated that there was another discussion with Craig Duli in that hotel, opposite the Holiday Inn, that would be the Osner Hotel as you have spoken of it, where certain strategies were discussed?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, commentary was given to Craig Duli regarding the sort of weapons that were available.  We attempted to determine whether they would be familiar with the use of these weapons, if not, we would have to give them a crash course in the bushes, thirdly, with regard to the use of the radio's, which were SA53 radio's, which could be used from ground to air, with the assurance that the batteries were correct, that they were sealed, that there was no leakage, that the magazines were loaded, how many rounds there were, and everything that went along with the weaponry.  However, no strategies were discussed there.  Craig Duli worked on an absolutely need to know basis and the impression which I gained from his attitude and his conduct was that his plan was already devised, that he didn't need any ideas or suggestions from me.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Lamey, when you had that discussion with Duli in the Osner Hotel, was Mr Nortje present with you?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, it is possible that he was present during the meeting in the Osner Hotel.

MR LAMEY: Mr De Kock, when I speak of strategy, and I have just confirmed my instructions, I am not speaking of consultation with regard to the execution of an operation.  My instructions are indeed as you have stated it now, what was discussed and Mr Nortje confirms this, but also during this further discussion with Duli, the arrangements were made for the date at which he would me met and where the weapons would be handed over?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, that would just be a thorough finishing off or completion of Duli's request.  I understood strategy here as a long term planning for an objective in terms of tactical planning.

MR LAMEY: Then Mr Nortje's recollection is also that you hired a kombi vehicle which was used, to transport the weapons to a racing course near East London, from where it was loaded from the bakkies to the kombi, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: And then he states that after this was done, you also received a request to keep some of the weapons aside and he says that 16 AK47's were held aside, but he says that you mentioned four AK's and 16 magazines and he maintains that 16 may have stuck in his head with regard to the magazines, but the point remains that a separate group of weapons were kept aside for another objective and that these weapons would also find their way to the Transkei as part of the attempted coup?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, this took place before the weapons were loaded over to the kombi.  This took place before we moved into the cabanas and Snyman and Vermeulen went to the cabanas and retrieved the weapons.  We had to break the watertight seal and this created various problems for us, however, this didn't take place at the race course.

MR LAMEY: With regard to this, my instructions from Mr Nortje are that it is possible that this could have taken place at the hotel, but he maintains that the reason why he remembers that this could have taken place at the racing course is that the risk was too great for the public eye to see these weapons being withdrawn and handed over, and that is why he feels that it took place at the race track?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, my recollection of that is clear and that is my version.

MR LAMEY: And later you departed in the direction of Maclear and late that night, you met Duli and his group and that is when the weapons were handed over to Duli?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.