Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

UNKNOWN: Perhaps, Mr Chairman, one should place this perspective on it.  It may well be that when next time we come together and we discuss more fully the political background, the political objectives, in regard to this application, and as you well know, there are many other applications, Mr Chairman, and our intention is not to repeat this every time an application for one of the clients of Mr Wagner, who appears before you, that the whole thing will be rehashed and repeated.  But once we arrive at the point where it is convenient for you to call upon us to make a representation regarding the background, et cetera, for all these incidents, the idea of this document's incorporation, is that we would then be able to place before you that evidence at least against the background of something which you will have in your possession.
	Lastly, Mr Chairman, my attorney says that he is going to make immediate arrangements for that document to be reproduced and to be given to you.  I doubt whether it will happen this week, but we will do it as soon as we can.

CHAIRPERSON: Then we can continue in the meanwhile.

UNKNOWN: Well, my attorney tells me he is going to have it done today, Mr Chairman. You are going to have it this week.
	Mr Van den Berg, where were we?  Your career in the police, you also set that out in your amnesty application.  Do you confirm what appears on page 32 and 33, as being the highlights of your police career; where you were stationed, where you were transferred to, et cetera?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And to sum up, in April 1976 you joined the South African Police and you are currently still in the South African Police?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I joined the police in 1967 but in January this year, I received a severance package.

UNKNOWN: So you retired from the service as a captain?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you in your own words, Mr Van den Berg, tell the members of the Committee what you know of these events and what your role was in May 1986 to the 10th of July 1986?

J P VAN DEN BERG: During 1986, Matthews Sehlwana and I handled an informer, Mabena in Botswana, and it was somewhere in May when this informer reported to Matthews that he, the informer, had been approached by a person to bring other people into the country, into the Republic of South Africa.  	I think that he reported it first to Matthews and that Matthews then reported that to me. I apologise.
	As a result of this report several questions arose.    Such as, were these illegal immigrants, were they MK members, were they PAC people who wanted to infiltrate the country.  I sent this information, conveyed it to Mr Coetsee as soon as possible after I received it. He was at that stage my direct commander.  There was an arrangement between Matthews and the informer that he would meet the person who had approached the informer. 
	During May, I think the arrangement was made to meet in the afternoon.  I think it was supposed to have taken place at 12 noon.  Myself, Matthews and Kobus Fourie - now I can't remember whether we drove in separate vehicles or - no, I am going to correct myself there.  It wasn't Kobus Fourie, it was Tokkie Fuchs.  We went to the farm Kruitfontein, where the meeting was scheduled to take place.

UNKNOWN: Kruitfontein?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, it is K-R-U-I-T, Kruitfontein, yes. Tokki Fuchs and I took up certain observation posts to be able to observe the meeting.

UNKNOWN: Just before you continue, I am sorry to have to interrupt you.  Can you sketch a picture for the Committee as to what the terrain looked like there?  Were you together, you and Tokkie Fuchs or were you at the one observation post and he at another, and exactly where were these posts, and which side of the border, et cetera.  Just paint a picture for us.

J P VAN DEN BERG: On this day we were on the South African side of the border.  We were together and by three o'clock or four o'clock the afternoon, the meeting had not yet taken place.
	We started having doubts as to whether the meeting would materialise. At about five o'clock - or perhaps I should just explain to you now what the surroundings looked like there.  It is mountainous.  We were on a little koppie or hill, five to 800 metres from the river.  That's where we took up our positions.  
	We were well concealed amongst trees and rocks.  At about 16:30, between 16:30 and five o'clock that afternoon that afternoon we heard somebody whistle, and I immediately realised that that was Mabena actually carrying out this arrangement or appointment.  Matthews approached and the donkey cart with Matthews and the person and Mabena stopped at the Botswana side of the river. They then walked to the river bank or maybe just a couple of paces away from the river bank.  They chatted there for a while.
	Matthews came back to the South African side.

UNKNOWN: How wide is this river?  Approximately?

J P VAN DEN BERG: There?

UNKNOWN: No, there,right there.

J P VAN DEN BERG: It could have been 100 to 150 metres, but it was dry at that stage.

UNKNOWN: So there was no water in it, it was just sand?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, sand and stones.

UNKNOWN: So Matthews returned.

J P VAN DEN BERG: Tokkie Fuchs and I went back to the place where we met Matthews again.

UNKNOWN: So Matthews reported to you?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, he reported to us.

UNKNOWN: What did he say?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That it was a person who wanted to get people into South Africa.
	What I inferred from what Matthews said, was that there was a possibility that they could be terrorists.

UNKNOWN: What caused you to draw this conclusion?

J P VAN DEN BERG: The fact that the meeting too place in such a secretive way and also the way in which he spoke to Matthews. According to Matthews he spoke a language not normally spoken in Botswana, Zulu or Xhosa.

UNKNOWN: In other words a South African Black language?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You don't have to give too much detail, Mr Van den Berg, you could perhaps just stick to the main points of your version.

J P VAN DEN BERG: Certainly.  Afterwards we returned to Pietersburg. I reported to Mr Coetsee.  At some stage, now I can't remember whether it was on that day or at a later meeting with Matthews, that person decided on a date as to when this infiltration should take place.

UNKNOWN: I apologise for the interruption.  How many people would have come into the country, 20, how many?

J P VAN DEN BERG: At that stage only three people.

UNKNOWN: You said that at some point you received the information from or via Matthews that a date had been set for the entry of these people into the country.

J P VAN DEN BERG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you remember when that was?

J P VAN DEN BERG: It was the 24th of June.

UNKNOWN: Why do you remember this day so well?

J P VAN DEN BERG: It was also my wife's birthday.  It was on my wife's birthday that I had to be in the bush to actually monitor this operation.

UNKNOWN: So they were supposed to enter on the 24th of June.  Now what was the planning and the further execution of that plan on that day?

J P VAN DEN BERG: The planning was that there would be observation posts at the point of infiltration.  Matthews would transport the people with the Toyota Corolla Sedan, a light brown car. He would transport them with this car and then an Army fixed-wing plane would have followed this car right to Pietersburg, because at some stage Matthews had been told that these people wanted to go all the way to Pietersburg.

UNKNOWN: What was the point of allowing them to go as far as Pietersburg?