Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I'm interested, you see you have on your admission agreed that you were operating on behalf of the previous government which was the Nationalist Party and that this operation, after the unbanning of these organisations, is set in motion by yourselves working for the Nationalist Party in order to make it difficult, even impossible.  You say there, you say the purpose is to discredit the ANC.  Now I hope you will believe me, I am not a member of the ANC, but I would like to know how you people could justify as professionals, how you could justify this particular kind of operation when there is no war now.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Mr Chairperson, it's a very long answer.

DR BORAINE: Try and be very brief but I'm quite sure you can if you tried.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Basically in 1989 when State President F W de Klerk took over the cabinet, we had to represent all our projects and our operations again to him at the Union Building for new approval and we had to change, we had to make changes to the definitions or the strategies or the objects and the whole angle then changed from like aggressive applying Stratcom.  When I say aggressive, it's figuratively speaking and then changing the attitudes of all the people rather towards peace, so the theme changed to influencing people towards peace, towards negotiations and towards the new government.  So that what has happened is the people that were for the armed struggle, people that were for violence, they still were addressed through these operations and people that were for peace, they whenever a leader within the ANC spoke about peace, we would see to it that statement or whatever he feels, that that gets put out to the people.  So the whole situation changed and in I think it was February 1990  President F W de Klerk again asked for the different operations to be put before him and he was worried certain people were turning and were beginning to expose some of our fronts, so he was worried that it would come out and I had to give him the assurance that not any of my people would walk over to the other side, and I couldn't.  So all these projects were scrapped.
 Oh yes in February they brought fro about 30 operations I think they were just left with about 10 operations.

DR BORAINE: Can I ask you a follow-p question on this because I think it's a very important issue.  This was on the 8th of November 1990, and you were personally involved in and you know all about it, you say, "I was personally involved in establishing this organisation"

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Yes I established it in 1989, this is...(intervention)

DR BORAINE: So it continues until the 8th of November 1990?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Yes according to this document, I...(intervention)

DR BORAINE: Did that happen to be approved?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Well it falls within the ambit of Romulus.

DR BORAINE: So it had to be approved on an annual basis by the State President.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: That's right.

DR BORAINE: So it was approved by Mr de Klerk.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Not this specific - this is like an hoc incident you can say and President de Klerk himself will not have personal knowledge.  As long as what they do and that is why it must be presented to the head of the Security Branch for approval.  He must see that this action gets approved. He can approve it on an ad hoc basis as long as it falls within the objects of Operation Romulus.

DR BORAINE: I'm tempted to take this further, but I will restrain myself.  Ms Sooka wants one final question and then we can stop.

YASMINE SOOKA: I'm just puzzled you see because if this is set up almost exactly at the time that the Committee was set up for the repatriation of South African Exiles and right from the beginning that body had to contend with destabilisation from this body, they even took them to court at one stage.  So at the same time that you were talking peace negotiations, you were quite intent on wrecking the other side from being able to participate properly in negotiations.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Yes that's difficult to answer now.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Thank you very much for coming.  You may step down now. If you like, if you want to keep your colleague company you're very welcome to do so.
 Right please proceed.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I see we're pressed for time, Mr Erasmus I think you should read your statement into the  record.

DR BORAINE: Mr Erasmus.

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Chairperson I state under oath the following
 My name is Paul Francis Erasmus.  I was a member of the South African Police...(intervention)

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry Mr Erasmus I can't remember, I can't remember, did we take an oath?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we did.

DR BORAINE: Please continue.  Ms Sooka there's little time.