Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: No, that's not what he said.  I'll put the question again and he repeated it, M'Lord.	I will appeal to my learned friend to let the record speak.

CHAIRPERSON: He has on a previous occasion said that he can't say whether the punch landed or not.  He attempted to punch.

GEORGE BIZOS: That was the previous evidence.  Now he twice said that he punched Capt Siebert, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask him to clear that up.  What did he mean by that?

MR SNYMAN: He did punch at Mr Biko, your Honour.  Capt Siebert then ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Just one moment, please.  Did the punch land on Mr Siebert?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot recall whether he in fact managed to hit him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, whether he punched him or punched at him with a blow that did not land, how did you feel about the cheek of this Black man towards your White colleague?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it was clear at that time that he was recalcitrant, that he was not willing to co-operate.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is how did you feel about that?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, since it had been clear that we were not going to get co-operation from him and that he was not willing
to stand up as instructed.

GEORGE BIZOS: How did you feel about the fact that your security police colleague, a White person, was punched at or punched by a Black man?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, at that moment it meant nothing to me.  The goal had been to interrogate this man and it was clear that he did not want to co-operate.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you felt that his failure to stand up - I want to use your own words, was "weerbarstig, uitdagend en aggressief", what words would you use to describe your feelings when he had the cheek, on your version, to punch or attempt to punch your colleague? What words would you use, which must obviously be stronger than those that you have already used.	What stronger words would you use to describe your feelings?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it was clear that he did not want to co-operate with us.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why don't you try to answer the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Please just answer the question, it's simple.  How did you feel about all this?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, we felt that we had to obtain the co-operation of the man in order to continue with our interrogation and it was clear that we were not going to obtain this co-operation.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is very directed; whether you were
annoyed, whether you were angered by what you saw or whether you were untouched by what you saw?  That is the kind of answer that is being asked by Mr Bizos.	How did you feel about this?

MR SNYMAN: I felt that we were not obtaining co-operation from the person.

GEORGE BIZOS: You don't want me to ask the question again, I take it?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'll accept your non-answer.  Now, please tell us that - what happened after that punch was thrown, precisely what happened; who did what?

MR SNYMAN: Capt Siebert was the first person to act.

GEORGE BIZOS: What did he do?

MR SNYMAN: He pulled him up from the chair by his clothes.

GEORGE BIZOS: He had already done that.  The question was, what did he do after this punch or attempted punch?  What did Mr Siebert do, or anyone else?

MR SNYMAN: Capt Siebert pushed against the chest.  At the same time Warrant-Officer Beneke entered the room and shouldered him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just a moment, please.  Where was the chair when the attempt was made to punch?  In what part of the room, the small room, was the chair?

MR SNYMAN: The chair had been pushed by the detainee.  I cannot recall on what side of him it was standing on the floor.

GEORGE BIZOS: I know that chairs stand on the floor.  What part of the room was it on?

MR SNYMAN: It was close to where the detainee was standing.

GEORGE BIZOS: Obviously if he was picked up from the chair, it must have been close.  The question is, what part of the room was this chair on when that happened?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I cannot at the moment remember exactly where in the room it was standing.  It was in the room.

GEORGE BIZOS: On the southern wall; on the northern wall; on the western wall or the eastern wall?  Please give us some idea where this chair was when this attempted punch was made?

MR SNYMAN: It would have been closer to the northern wall.

GEORGE BIZOS: The northern wall, yes.  What was the result of Mr Biko being pushed on the chest by Mr Siebert?

MR SNYMAN: He staggered backwards, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he not fall?

MR SNYMAN: The moment when the other man joined in and bumped him with the shoulder, a general melee then happened.  There was a scuffle amongst everyone and in that process, there was a pushing around.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me give you notice that it was easy in 1977 and it may be easy now for you to say that there was a scuffle without giving us any details as to how it may have happened.
	I'm going to suggest to you that if you persist of just speaking of a general scuffle, we will submit to his Lordship that you are not telling the truth and that the reason for it is that you have converted a beating-up to a scuffle.	If you want your story to be believed that there was a scuffle, you will please tell us details of it and not try and evade the questions.	Have I made myself clear?  
	Now let me try again.  What happened to Mr Biko when he was pushed immediately after he tried to punch Mr Siebert?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour ...
END OF TAPE 1 - DAY 2 - SIDE A

GEORGE BIZOS: ... in your prepared version.  I am asking you specifically;  what happened to Mr Biko as soon as he was pushed by Mr Siebert?

CHAIRPERSON: He had already told us that he staggered backwards.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.  He did stagger backwards.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he fall?

MR SNYMAN: He would have fallen after he was bumped by the other man.

GEORGE BIZOS: We're not talking about the other man yet.  Did he fall when he was pushed by Mr Siebert?

MR SNYMAN: No, I doubt that he had fallen.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he stagger with the chair behind him?

MR SNYMAN: That is possible, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, anything is possible.  Where was the chair when he staggered backwards?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot exactly say where the chair had been.  It was somewhere on the northern side of the room.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was Mr Biko in front of the chair or behind the chair when Mr Siebert pushed him?

MR SNYMAN: I would say that it was on his side.  It was next to him.

GEORGE BIZOS: He was next to the chair, yes.  Then you say that Mr Beneke rushed in?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: How many people were in the room before Mr Beneke came in?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it would have been myself, Capt Siebert and I believe also Warrant-Officer Niewoudt.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you try to do anything before Mr Beneke came in?  Did you try to do anything to restrain Mr Biko on his alleged aggressive behaviour before Mr Beneke came in?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Niewoudt try and do anything before Mr Beneke came in?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot exactly recall, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: What did Mr Siebert do after Mr Biko had staggered back?

MR SNYMAN: He made an attempt to restrain him, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: By doing what?

MR SNYMAN: By means of the scuffle that then ensued, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: The scuffle that had ensued is a generalisation that I will not accept, Mr Snyman.  Please answer the question.  What did Mr Siebert do immediately after he pushed Mr Biko and Mr Biko staggered backward?  What did Mr Siebert do?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I am certain that there were punches dealt out at that point.

GEORGE BIZOS: Punches dealt out by whom?

MR SNYMAN: That would have been by Capt Siebert and also Beneke who then joined and at a later point the other two men also joined in.