Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

MR WEBSTER: Police vehicle from which shots could have been fired?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, did any of the police vehicles drive away immediately after the suspect vehicle had come to a stop?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It's very possible, it's possible but I can't remember.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, very possible is so wide that as a former senior officer I would have thought that you talk about probabilities.  I want to put it to you that it's inherently improbable that such a vehicle would have existed that it would have driven away and that you would just be saying it's possible.  There was no such a vehicle, do you agree?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I said that I can't remember, I conceded that the possibility existed but I can't remember.

MR WEBSTER: I want to suggest some reason for this amnesia in this regard Mr Botha.

MR VISSER: But just before my learned friend - Chairperson, may I come in here?

CHAIRPERSON: You'll re-examine, you'll re-examine.

MR VISSER: But Chairperson, with respect, if my learned friend is going to cross-examine a witness, at least he should put to him is it his case that there was in fact a police vehicle before this witness?  It's quite simple to put that to the witness and we'll all know what this is about.  We are now on a speculation and we're going on to a second speculation upon a first speculation that there might have been a vehicle.  We still don't know.  This witness says he was behind that car, he didn't see another police vehicle, now couldn't my learned friend just tell all of us whether he is putting to the witness that there was such a vehicle then we can speculate from a fact, Chairperson, at least.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, I think I would myself require that to be clarified.  It's your contention that to the left of the suspect vehicle and in front of his vehicle there was another vehicle, another police vehicle?

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, unfortunately when you're dealing with cases of this nature where the families do not have access, we don't even have dockets of mysteriously ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well there are no eyewitnesses accounted for.

MR WEBSTER: I have Chairperson, the only thing as my weapon at the moment are post-mortems and I will deal with why I make or question the witness ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well now you see that is what is important you see, to ask questions for the sake of asking questions gets us nowhere, I also don't want to - I also would like to know the direction in which we are moving when you ask these questions.

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, the direction is towards the end these post-mortems.

CHAIRPERSON: Well get to them.

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, I don't know whether jumping into the post-mortems is really going to get us, without laying the basis ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not saying you must jump into the post-mortems.  You know, I don't have a clear picture, I got the impression you were going to put to this witness that there was in fact another vehicle to the left of the suspect vehicle, that's the point of your questioning?

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, what I'm going to say to him is that some of the occupants had injuries on their bodies which were on the left sides of the bodies.

CHAIRPERSON: Put that to him.

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, with all of the respect may I be allowed to lay the basis for getting to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Because otherwise I know the answer is going to be "it's possible" or "it's not possible" and we are not getting to probabilities and I think you are interested in probabilities Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we are, we're interested in arriving at as much of the truth as possible.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Before we get to the post-mortems, we're getting closer to the post-mortems, Mr Botha.  Can you tell us about the positions of the occupants?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean how many sat in the front, how many at the back or who sat where, is that it?

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson could we just ...(intervention)
(Disturbance from members of the public)

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask you to leave this hall if you interrupt these proceedings.  You will have a chance to talk.  Please don't interrupt these proceedings.  Yes do carry on.

MR WEBSTER: The various, there were four people in that vehicle and I would just like to have some idea about who was sitting where?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, there were four people in the vehicle, I can't - but I didn't know the people, so I can't tell you which person, which individual sat where, but there were four people in the vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: Who is Capt or who was Capt L Botha?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Capt L Botha was a colleague of mine who was later transferred to I think it was Port Elizabeth or East London.

MR WEBSTER: He was in the special branch?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: Was he present on that day?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I'm not sure.

MR WEBSTER: You see, one of the strange things is that Capt Botha was able to state on affidavit where each of the persons were seated, do you find that strange?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I suppose it's possible.

MR WEBSTER: Possible?  Probability?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: As I said it's a possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't even remember whether he was there?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Were the occupants, that is now after they had been shot at, were they in seated positions?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: They were still in the particular vehicle in a semi-seated position, some of them.

MR WEBSTER: Let's talk about the left front passenger, what position was he in?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it is not easy for me to describe thirteen years afterwards as to what the attitude and the position and lying and the seating of each individual in that vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: At best could you recall whether he was in a seated position?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It is possible.

MR WEBSTER: And the one who was in the left back, left rear passenger, was he also in a seated position?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, the persons who were killed, so if we speak of a seating position then we do not speak of a upright seating position but we would say a seating/lying position if I recall correctly.

MR WEBSTER: You see because according to my instructions after rigor mortis the people were still in seated positions, that's according to the families.  You wouldn't dispute that?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it is not logical that a person who had already been killed would remain in a seated position, in an upright seated position.

MR WEBSTER: But in a seated position.

CHAIRPERSON: They may have been reclining but still seated.

MR WEBSTER: That is the point I'm making, not necessarily straight up but generally in a seated position, that's all I want to know.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right, in other words they were not standing and they were not sleeping, they were not lying down.

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Okay let's take the first one and that would be the person who was seated in the left front.  According to the post-mortem and according to the affidavit of Capt L Botha, that person was Mbongeni Henry Zondi.  You ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Chairperson, can we now hand them in as exhibits so that we know where we are, Chairperson?

MR WEBSTER: That would be post-mortem number 2021/86, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it.  2021?

MR WEBSTER: 2021.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR WEBSTER: According to Capt L Botha he was seated on the left front passenger side or seat of the vehicle.  You would not dispute that?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: One moment please, Chairperson?

MR LAX: It's on the third page of that set of documents.
Sorry Mr Webster, is this going to be the first one you're going to refer to?

MR WEBSTER: This is the first one I'm referring to.