Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: I have no idea whatsoever. I don't even know why he was killed, because when we left the place where we were staying to move to another one, we were on good terms with everybody there, but simply because we were Zulu speaking we had to leave the area and the house we occupied was not ours, it was his brother's, and he had people to whom he wanted to rent the house, and we were forced to leave the area.

MR LEWIN: Do you in your own mind have any doubt as the fact that he was killed because he was Zulu Speaking and because it was part of this political antagonism that existed?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: I think so, I'm not too sure, but that's what I think.

MR LEWIN: Mrs Mtshalie we're grateful for you for coming, we understand that you do have difficulties in getting away.  It's important what you have told us and if you could also let us know how to contact possibly the witness, we will then try and find out.  I'll pass you back to the Chairperson.  Thank you very much.

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: I can tell you or probably give you the address, where he stays. I'm not too sure if he's still there.  However I will give you the address, I'll furnish the necessary information to you.

MS SEROKI: Mrs Mstshali, in your statement you suspect your neighbour who helped you to move from your house to another.  Can you explain why you suspect him? What did he do?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: It was not a neighbour, but we were just occupying the house.  The time when we moved to go and occupy the house there were possessions of that woman in the house that we occupied.  When we went back to fetch our possessions she came.  After my husband was killed that told me somehow that the gentlemen who saw us moving could have been the ones who did the whole thing.

MS SEROKI: In other words your brothers were against you moving?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: Yes.

MS SEROKI: Are you still occupying the same house?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: No.

MS SEROKI: Where are you stationed?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: I live at the place where I work.  I have three children and they're at school.

MS SEROKI: Who is paying for the fees?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: I am paying them but my mum is taking care of the children.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Mstshali, I know you want to go out but I just want to ask you a few quick questions please.
 In your statement you talk about your husband recognising the danger of living the area, in fact he was wanting top move you back to Kwa Zulu Natal, is that not right?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: Yes.

DR RANDERA: So the move to the other area was just as part of the big move back home.  Can you tell us where you come from in Kwa Zulu Natal?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: We come from Mashlabatini in Ndzhleve.

DR RANDERA: Can you just again tell us what was going on. I mean although on the one side I can understand you saying that you were Zulu speaking and living in an area where people were antagonistic to you, but at that time, I mean we are talking about 1993, was there not a war going on, were people not living in fear of their lives? Were you not living in fear of your life?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: I had no fear because I knew that the people I was with were free with me and I was easy with them as well.  But when the unrest started and the violence and so on, things were changing and now affecting our relationship.

DR RANDERA: So for you when did the unrest start?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: It was in 1990 when we first felt that we were no longer free with the people when the fight between the Zulus and Xhosa transpired.  And after that we felt as if everything had calmed down and suddenly after that riots and unrest transpired.

DR RANDERA: You said earlier on that you were not a member of the IFP, was your husband a member of OWUSA, the trade union that was associated with the IFP?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: We were not members of the trade union or of the IFP.

DR RANDERA: If I remember rightly, in Elroad many workers lost their lives, there were many shootings outside factories, people were killed as they were coming out of taxis.  Were there any other killings that took place on the same day that your husband was murdered?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: I wouldn't know about that because I was at home when all that happened and I don't even know which spot he died at.

DR RANDERA: Okay, you said you had three children and they were at school.  Where do they go to school?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: At Mapanzela Primary School.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, where's that?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: In Tokoza.

DR RANDERA: Can you tell us, in the days of the unrest and even now, do children who are Zulu speaking go to separate schools from the rest of the children, or do they all go to the same school?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: At that time they were mixed and I took mine and sent them back home in 1990 during the riots. They would come and visit during the school holidays. They were no longer here since '90.

DR RANDERA: Now, what's the situation now?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: I'm not certain.  I don't even think that the situation has calmed down because even now there's no good relationship, because there's that bridge that exists and which poses problems to us, even when you try to go and visit another section, you will hear people calling you names and we feel bad.  Now we will not say everything has calmed down because we are not friends as such, and in good relationship.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mstshali we wont keep you much longer, I just want to clarify certain things in your statement. Dr Randera did ask if your husband was a member of a trade union and you said that he was not but in your statement -.

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: He belonged to SAWUSA Union.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh SAWUSA, sorry.  Then also you say that, this is my ignorance, just explain this to me please, you said when you decided to move you were going to move from one section to another.  I'll read from your statement here,
When we moved to Panduka in preparation for going to Natal, we were labelled Ndwembe and that resulted in the death of my husband.
Could you just explain what that means, we were labelled Ndwembe?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: That means an animal, a bush animal, like a fox, and animal does not live with people, it would rather out in the bush, in the forest.  Like that when you meet with such people you are geared to kill them.  Now that surprised us why they called us something like a fox because we are not animals.

CHAIRPERSON: And the people who called you that, who were those people?

ZONDIWE MSTSHALI: I will say when you have moved from the ANC area and joining the Zulu area, the ANC will call us fox because we have left their area and joined the area that's predominantly Zulu. I wont disclose the names of the persons in public.