Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

MR HUGO: I am referring to the time that you became the Commander of Vlakplaas and that was in 1979, I am sorry 1989.
	The politicians that you are referring to and their statements, do you know if politicians knew what the functions and purpose of Vlakplaas was?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I did not have inside information in those circles, but that was definitely my perception that they definitely knew about what was happening there.

MR HUGO: To which politicians are you referring?  Specifically the previous Minister of Law and Order, Minister Adriaan Vlok?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And who else?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I would not find it strange if General Malan did not know about this.

MR HUGO: Why are you referring to General Malan, why should he know about Vlakplaas' existence and the way the operated?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Because he was the Minister of Defence at that stage.

MR HUGO: And which other senior police officers knew on which basis Vlakplaas functioned?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It is difficult to say who they all were.  I can just refer to a few of them.  I would definitely accept that General Van der Merwe knew about that, that he was aware.

MR HUGO: That was General Van der Merwe who was Head of the Security Police at that stage?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, he was a Commissioner at that stage.

MR HUGO: Yes, I think you are correct.  He was Commissioner at that stage.  The Head of Security Police was Basie Smit, did he know about how Vlakplaas members were operating?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR HUGO: That they were involved in illegal operations

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR HUGO: The funding of these operations which were launched from Vlakplaas, how was the funding done?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I don't know.

MR HUGO: General, you were in command of this Unit in 1989?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I did not understand you correctly, what was the word, it was secret funding.

MR HUGO: Could you tell us how that worked in practice?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I know, the funding had to be approved by one or more of the Generals in the Security Branch and then this approved application was processed by the Financial Unit at head office.

MR HUGO: I am sorry to interrupt, did you know that there was a secret fund which could be used by the Vlakplaas Unit, it amounted to several million rand?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I was aware that there was this fund, but I did not know to what this amounted.

MR HUGO: Were you aware that from higher structures, approval was given and instructions were given to Mr De Kock and other members at Vlakplaas, to obtain money from this fund by means of handing in of false claims amounting to fraud?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I am not.

MR HUGO: Mr Van Rensburg, you will agree with me that regarding this operation where you instructed Mr De Kock to become involved, it had certain financial implications?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Where did you think this money would come from for this operation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, in the first place I was not part of the planning of this operation.  If I say planning, I mean the execution of this operation on grassroots level.  I was not certain or I was not aware of specifically which funds Mr De Kock had access to.  I knew there was  a secret fund.
	I did not know precisely how that administration was handled.  I accepted that should funding become necessary, Mr De Kock would approach me and I also accepted ... (intervention)

MR HUGO: Mr Van Rensburg, Mr De Kock, and I am putting it to you, did not approach you for funding and did you not deem it fit to at a next stage ask him how this operation was financed?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I did not.

MR HUGO: Why did you not do that?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I did not think it was necessary.

MR HUGO: Mr Van Rensburg, I am putting it to you that it was precisely the way in which the general staff and the senior police officers operated, in other words to keep a distance between themselves and the other policemen.
	And I want to put it to you that you knew should problems arise at a later stage, it would be easier to distance yourself from any criminal steps which could be instituted against these people, what do you say to that?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I am saying it is not correct.

MR HUGO: I want to ask you once again regarding the funding, because this is a matter which we will address later on as well, and my client will testify on this.  Did you at any stage make any enquiries regarding the money to be used to fund and launch this operation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you assume that they would use funds from the allocation that you expected them to have gotten from the secret fund?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Mr Van Rensburg, I put it to you that Mr De Kock in order to properly plan and to carry out this operation, had to generate funds and he did so as was the custom by instituting false claims and the money which he obtained in such a way, he then gave to his men to cover their travel costs and other logistic expenses which they had.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can't deny it if that is what he says.  I didn't do that myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, what is your problem about this problem of funds, because the witness' understanding concedes that your client would have made use of this purse which contained secret funds and well, he didn't even discuss it with your client.
	He expected that your client would do that and he is not denying that your client would have used those funds.

MR HUGO: I am putting it to the witness that that is the basis and I am accepting when he says that that could have been the way it happened.  The other reason why I am touching on this point, is that in the application there is a specific question as to financial or other gain for any individual and that is why I am mentioning it now.
	Mr Chairman, I think it is five past eleven, I am not certain what the custom is.

CHAIRPERSON: We normally stop at about quarter past eleven.

MR HUGO: Mr Van Rensburg, I put it to you that during 1989 when this operation was being planned, the Harms Commission of Enquiry was taking place.  Can you recall that?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR HUGO: If I can perhaps give a little bit more detail about that.  I think it was before the Harms Commission actually started their sittings, but the decision had already been made that there would be such a Commission of Enquiry.   I put it to you further that police circles, especially amongst the more senior ranks there was great consternation about this enquiry which was soon to be launched, can you recall that?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I can remember that.

MR HUGO: And I am further putting it to you that the most prominent role players in police circles, were in the Harms Commission, Mr De Kock, a Mr Paul van Dyk, Koos Vermeulen, Brian Ngulunga, Joe Mamasela and Jeff Bosigo, can you recall that?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I can.

MR HUGO: These were all members of Vlakplaas, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, at some stage as far as I am aware they were members.

MR HUGO: And the person whose name featured most prominently at this time was Mr De Kock, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I think you could put it like that.

MR HUGO: I am further putting it to you that the General staff, if you could call it that, arranged for Mr De Kock to be placed on special leave in this period, can you recall that?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I can.

MR HUGO: Apparently to create the impression in the press that Mr De Kock had been absolved of all his duties, pending the outcome of the Harms Commission?