Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I would never have thought that you could have forgotten as to when you had come to live in Krugersdorp.

FAAN VENTER: Yes I had a lot of business and I went to Krugersdorp a lot before then and I simply made a mistake.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: After Mr Derby-Lewis had asked you to help collect weapons, and after you delivered this one, did you continue to look for some more weapons?

FAAN VENTER: No I wouldn't have known where to start looking.  I didn't continue looking for weapons, I didn't know the right people who would be the right contacts for weapons at that stage.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You know I hear you saying that the police insisted that it was during February and that is why you kept saying it was February.  What interest did the police have that they should tell you it was February?

FAAN VENTER: I am not sure, but this February, February thing, it was constantly mentioned to me that it was February and that is I think what planted the seed in my mind that it was February.  But I corrected it later and I am sorry about that.  My wife pointed out to me that it was the 10th of March actually which was also the date of our child's birthday and I can't dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: No I am now talking about the police.  I couldn't understand what reason the police would have to tell you or to insist that it was February, what reason would they have?

FAAN VENTER: I don't know what purpose it could have served for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  So now that mistake you attribute to the fact that the police were in some way reminding you to say that it was February, so you made that mistake.
	Now then eventually when you changed to March the police had no say in the matter when you changed from the first half of March to the second half of March, is that so?

FAAN VENTER: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you must admit that your recollection is such that in this matter here that you must have considerable doubt in your mind as to whether it was in February or March?

FAAN VENTER: When I wrote those documents I did have doubt.  I didn't actually draw together all these points.  I moved in the 1st of March, child's birthday, I didn't actually bring together all these points.  I had doubt, I corrected it, I said it couldn't have been February it must have been March.  I was under the impression that it was in the second half of March.  I was sincerely of that opinion but I was wrong, it couldn't have been then.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Venter ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it Sisi.

JUDGE WILSON: How old was your child?

FAAN VENTER: It was his 21st birthday.

JUDGE WILSON: So what sort of party was it?

FAAN VENTER: It wasn't a party, it was just a family gathering, brothers and sisters and so forth.

JUDGE WILSON: What time?

FAAN VENTER: Usually round about 7:00, 7:30.

JUDGE WILSON: In the evening?

FAAN VENTER: In the evening, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Venter at the time when you gave evidence before Justice Eloff on the 15th of October 1993 you knew then that the date on which you delivered the gun to Du Randt's house was an important piece of evidence?

FAAN VENTER: Yes, but nobody actually pushed me on that particular issue or cross-examined me on it.  I had testified as to that and that was that.  Nobody actually cross-examined me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But the police had before that day tried to induce you to agree to the second part of February as being the date around which the gun was delivered to Mrs du Randt, and you had, before the 15th of October, corrected yourself with regard to both particular periods.

FAAN VENTER: Yes, not as the police put pressure on me about February, they just kept saying it was February, February, so I think that just made me think that it was February.  I didn't actually realise it was that important.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But didn't your wife at that stage speak to you to try and enable your recollection to be accurate and remind you about the birthday that had taken place about a few days before the delivery of the gun to Mr du Randt?

FAAN VENTER: She did, but it only happened after the trial.  The first that she heard regarding the particulars of the case was at the trial and that was when she told me, "look Fanie, it wasn't the second half of February, it was the 10th of March to be exact, because it was Fanie's birthday", but it was only after the trial that she said this.

SISI KHAMPEPE: During the meeting with Mr Derby-Lewis which took place on the 10th of March did you apprise him then that the weapon that he was asking you to look for that you had at least one weapon immediately available, that you could give him to contribute to his stockpiling?

FAAN VENTER: When he asked me I said yes I did have a weapon, but he was quite surprised when I told him I had a weapon.  I don't think he expected that from me.  I was quite keen to get rid of the weapon because really it was just a nuisance for me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So he still insisted that the weapon should be delivered to the du Randt's house?

FAAN VENTER: He asked that I do that, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And he gave an explanation why it had to be delivered to the du Randt's house?

FAAN VENTER: No he didn't give me an explanation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you ask him for an explanation?

FAAN VENTER: No I assumed that the du Randt's were probably the people who were involved in the stockpiling of the weapons.  I didn't know the exact circumstances.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was the request by Mr Derby-Lewis to the effect that the gun had to be delivered to the du Randt's house or to Mr du Randt?

FAAN VENTER: No Mr du Randt's house.  He gave me the address and everything.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So it was to be delivered to anyone who was in the house, not specifically to Mr du Randt, is that your evidence?

FAAN VENTER: Yes well he said to Mr du Randt, but then I found Mrs du Randt so I gave her the parcel.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: And you told Mrs du Randt that it was a jersey, but it was actually a firearm?

FAAN VENTER: Yes that's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Which had not been wrapped in a jersey?

FAAN VENTER: No.  It wasn't in a jersey, I think it was in a plastic bag and there was a box, a firearm box and that had been put into the plastic bag.

ADV POTGIETER: So she told us the firearm had been wrapped in a jersey and it was put in an OK Bazaars plastic bag.

FAAN VENTER: It was probably an OK Bazaars bag but there was no jersey.

ADV POTGIETER: Well as I am putting it to you she says it was wrapped in a jersey.

FAAN VENTER: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Is she making a mistake?

FAAN VENTER: Well she must be making a mistake because I didn't put the firearm in a jersey.  I put the box in a plastic bag and I put it down on her table, I said "there is Clive's jersey, please give it to your husband".

ADV POTGIETER: You said that it was a jersey for Clive and you told that to a woman that you didn't know at all?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And actually the parcel contained a firearm in a box?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: So it must have been quite clear to the person receiving it that you weren't actually telling the truth, that it wasn't a jersey?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.  Well that is why I said I found it quite funny to say that it's a jersey when it wasn't.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you find it humorous?

FAAN VENTER: Yes, yes I did, because it wasn't a jersey, it was a firearm.

JUDGE WILSON: And what would have happened if she had panicked and phoned the police and said some strange man has just come here, said he was leaving a jersey here and he's left a gun?