Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   We took him to Lothair Police Station, at the police station there.

MR MARAIS: Was Mr Pillay ever assaulted in your presence?

WITNESS:  No, I never saw him being assaulted.

MR MARAIS: When you guarded Mr Pillay did you regard this as part of your duties as a policeman?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is indeed so.  I took that to be part of my job.  It was all part of our job when I was there.

MR MARAIS: Were you ordered by Dirk Coetzee to guard Mr Pillay?

WITNESS:   Yes, the order that I should stay with him whilst we were at the military base.  They took him into another room, but during that time when they took him to that room I don't know what they did to him.  But after that when he came back from there we stayed together.

MR MARAIS: And you regarded this as part of your job at Vlakplaas to guard Mr Pillay?

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I will rephrase the question.

WITNESS:   Yes, it was in fact Klapperkop.

MR MARAIS: Did you regard the guarding of Mr Pillay as part of your job in the police?

WITNESS:   Yes, indeed it is so.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR MARAIS: /NO FURTHER

MR MARAIS: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe, are there any questions?

CHAIRPERSON: QUESTIONED BY MR MSHE

CHAIRPERSON: In your application you stated that Joe Pillay was kidnapped, and during the course of his detention in Pretoria he was seriously assaulted.  Now, by whom was he assaulted?

WITNESS:   I would not be able to give that information.  What I am saying, he showed signs of having been assaulted, but I myself did not see him being assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but your application doesn't say, "He showed signs of having been assaulted," or "I saw him as being assaulted," you say he was seriously assaulted.

WITNESS:   It might be that what is written there is not quite accurate, but what I would like to say is that he did show signs that he had really been thoroughly assaulted.  He was weak.  It did show that he had really been thoroughly mishandled.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us how he was, what is it that you saw to convince you that he was thoroughly beaten?

WITNESS:   You could see from his eyes.  Below his eyes he was swollen and red.  I could see also that he was very weak.  He was very, very weak and he was in pain.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the state of his clothes?

WITNESS:   I can't remember very well.  I didn't saw any signs of anything on his clothes, but I can't remember the details of that.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't remember the details?

CHAIRPERSON: About his clothes.

WITNESS:   Yes, I don't remember about his clothes.  I can't remember any signs on

CHAIRPERSON: his clothes.

CHAIRPERSON: /MR MSHE

MR MSHE: Now, during your guarding of Mr Pillay was he left in your custody being a free - left in your custody unmanacled, or was he manacled?

WITNESS:   During that time I was with him, no, he wasn't shackled, he was free.

MR MSHE: Were you guarding him even when he was asleep?

WITNESS:  Yes, I was there.

MR MSHE: Where were you guarding him precisely?

WITNESS:   It was at Kloppers - Klapperkop, that's where I was from there, and then from there at Schutte's house.  And in Schutte's house he wasn't shackled there, he was just a free person even at Schutte's house.

MR MSHE: Just go back to Schutte's house.  In Schutte's house were you put with him in a particular room, or where precisely were you with him during the nights?

WITNESS:   In Schutte's house he was sleeping an outer room which was next to the garage.  I was also sleeping in the same room.  There's nothing that happened during that time.  He was also free there, he didn't have any problem.

MR MSHE: Do you know the reason he was not shackled, why he was not manacled whilst under your custody?

WITNESS:   There were some arrangements that he would be taken back.  There was no longer any problems at that stage about his situation

MR MSHE: Now, why was there a need for you to guard him if there was no problem and he was even left as a free man?

WITNESS:   He was just kept in the company of somebody so that he wouldn't be alone, so that he wouldn't be a lonely person, there will be somebody who will keep him company.

MR MSHE: Oh, you wanted him not to be lonely.

WITNESS:   Yes, that shows that.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... in order to make sure that he is not 	/lonely.

MR MSHE: lonely.

WITNESS:   There was nothing I did, but we were just talking, we were just having informal conversation and finding out about what he was doing.  He told me he was teaching in Swaziland, but there wasn't any serious conversation that took place between the two of us.  But even from his conversation it shows he wasn't very serious.

MR MSHE: Do you recall a time when he was left overnight in a truck, and you kept guard on the truck, shortly before he could be finally released?

WITNESS:   No, I wouldn't remember that well.  When we left we left in a truck, but I can't remember the details, but I do know that we left to Lothair and then we left him there.  But I don't remember what exactly happened thereafter.  I don't remember what happened thereafter.

MR MSHE: You left him "there."   Where?

WITNESS:   At Lothair.  We slept at Lothair, and then we woke up the following day and we went back.

MR MSHE: You said in your application that - that's paragraph (iv) on page 5 typed,

MR MSHE: "I was aware of his kidnapping."

MR MSHE: Could you say more about that?

MR MSHE: "I was aware of his kidnapping."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mshe, what paragraph are you reading from?

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, page 5, the typed - the with pagination would be page 8 (iv).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MSHE: Under, "Nature and particulars."   Could you explain what you mean when you say,
"I was aware of his kidnapping"?
/---   I
---   I heard those news thereafter when we went to see him.  I knew, because Dirk Coetzee had explained to me that this person we had taken at night, and other people, and it did show that he had been taken forcefully, but it did also indicate that they didn't fulfil their mission adequately.  It is in that sense that I say I did know that he had been taken forcefully. 
Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to re-examine your witness?

MR MARAIS: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, may I possibly just ask a question on behalf of Mr Coetzee?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: QUESTIONED BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshikalanga, did you at any stage see any signs of blood on the clothes of Mr Pillay?

WITNESS:   As I have explained I cannot remember anything about his clothes, the condition that they were in.  I can't remember if I saw any stains on his clothings.

CHAIRPERSON: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

WILSON J: You've told us repeatedly how weak he was, apparently as a result of the assault on him.  Was there any need for him to be handcuffed or shackled?

WITNESS:   Well, I would say I wouldn't be able to give any answer on that.  I won't say he had to be chained or shackled.  I can't answer that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  You are excused for
the time being.
/CHAIRMAN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe, do you propose leading any evidence?

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, I do not propose leading any evidence.  I just want to refer the Committee to the document that I have just submitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MSHE: Exhibit D.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MSHE: It is self-explanatory, the covering letter thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Is that all to be said in connection with the case of Mr Pillay?

MR MSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Where do we proceed to now, Mr Mshe?