Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

CHAIRPERSON: You are reminded that you are still under your 
formal oath.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse?

UNKNOWN: (cont)  
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Good Morning Mr Cerqueira.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Good morning Sir.

UNKNOWN: Mr Cerqueira, yesterday at the outset I said to 
you and I just want to repeat that today, that what happened that 
evening, cannot be defended, it is indefensible, the killings of 
everybody in that Tavern and the killing of your brother, constitutes 
a gross human rights violation, there is no argument about that, so I 
don't have any fight with you about that.
	So, just in terms of the necessary sensitivity which this matter 
and which this process warrants, I just want to assure you of that.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I appreciate that.

UNKNOWN: But you will also appreciate that we need to get 
as full a picture as possible of what happened there and at times, 
you know, I am going to put things to you which you know, which 
obviously you may not agree with and which you may not like, but 
like with everyone else, I've got a job to do.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Okay.

UNKNOWN: Now one of the things I put to you yesterday, 
which may have caused some consternation or which may have upset 
you, is the suggestion that you may not have been there.  
	Now, none of us and I am sure Mr Prior will also tell you 
that, we as lawyers we cannot make suggestions to you if we don't 
have some basis for making them.  If they are purely speculative or 
unfounded, then we are out of order and I am sure that the Chairman 
will come to your assistance or will rebuke me if I do that.
	So yesterday's suggestion from me comes out of the summary 
of the evidence that the Judge made in the criminal trial.  And that 
comes from Mr Brode's evidence.  Mr Brode, I read back to you that 
he said he was there, Mr Cerqueira's wife was there I think and some 
other waiter, he never mentioned your name.  That is where it comes 
from.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Did he mention Mr Cerqueira's wife was there?

UNKNOWN: Sorry, let me just get it.   It is on page 46.    He 
said and you understand Afrikaans - from line 22 Mr Chairman - he, 
with Jose Cerqueira and his wife as well as another waiter stayed 
behind after all the guests left the restaurant at about quarter past 
eleven.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Well, Sir, there seems to be a little bit of a 
misunderstanding.  Whoever gave you that statement, my brother's 
wife was not in the restaurant at the time of the shooting.

UNKNOWN: Okay, so Mr Brode made a mistake, it is not 
Jose's wife, it was you?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I don't know how he made that mistake, but I 
don't want to sound funny, but I don't look like a woman for 
starters, and she is definitely very much a woman.   She was 
definitely not there, Sir.

UNKNOWN: So, you know, as far as we are concerned, we 
accept that you were there, we don't have a problem with that.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I be of some assistance.  I don't 
want to interject unnecessary, but the statement of Brode or 
submissions of Brode on page 73 of the witness' bundle, which was 
supplied to the legal representative where he describes the incident 
in that statement, maybe that may assist my learned friend.
	The middle paragraph, under the heading "The incident".

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  I have just indicated that it was not 
in issue that Mr Cerqueira was at the scene.  Mr Cerqueira, just 
going back to what you said then yesterday, all this happened very 
quickly?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: We are talking about the matter of a couple of 
minutes at most?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: The time seemed like an hour to me, but it was 
very quick.

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes.  When you came out of the restaurant 
the first time, did you observe anyone else or anything else in the 
vicinity of the corner there where you were at, at the corner of 
Lower Main Road and Station Road or in Station Road itself?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, when I came out, Mr Brode was standing 
on the corner in front of me and then the other waiter that worked 
for us, came and stood with us.  That is the first observation of any 
person around me, if you are talking about people.

UNKNOWN: And the second time you came out, did you 
observe anything or anyone?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: There was no second time.  It was the first time 
I came out before the shots had been fired at us.  I came out onto 
the pavement.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: The two gentlemen I mentioned was standing 
there, we looked up and the car was coming down.

UNKNOWN: But didn't you say you went back in after that?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: When they started shooting at us, yes, I ran 
back in, I dragged Mr Brode in.  We struggled through the door and 
then I came out.  After - like I mentioned to you yesterday - after 
going over the counter, looking for the gun, shouting for my 
brother, then I came out and he was lying on the pavement.

UNKNOWN: Okay, that is the second time?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That is the second time.

UNKNOWN: Okay, now the first time, apart from seeing Mr 
Brode and the other waiter there on the pavement, and you dragging 
Mr Brode in, you didn't see anything else or anyone else?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I am not sure what you are asking me.

UNKNOWN: No, I mean did you see another vehicle?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Are you talking about when I was inside the 
restaurant or outside or ... (intervention)

UNKNOWN: No, when you came out?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: When I came out?

UNKNOWN: Yes, you came out now twice, okay, we know 
that.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I came out once first, I saw the two gentlemen 
standing there.  I looked up and I saw one vehicle coming down.  I 
didn't notice any other vehicle.  And when the shots were being fired 
at me, believe you me, I didn't notice anything else, I  just noticed 
to get out of there.

UNKNOWN: I understood you to say yesterday, that you came 
out a first time and you saw what you called a heavy laden vehicle.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No Sir.

UNKNOWN: Move up against the one way?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse, I think you are a little bit mistaken 
there.  What I said yesterday was that when I was inside the 
restaurant, the car - I noticed the car, if I turned to the door, I 
noticed a car driving, slow down.  While I was sitting in the 
restaurant.

UNKNOWN: Okay, okay, that is fine.  Then I was mistaken.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Okay, Sir.

UNKNOWN: But you then only came out twice?  Once ...

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Once to find out what the popping sounds were 
about and then when I ran in, then I came out - looking for my 
brother.

UNKNOWN: And then when you observed this vehicle again, 
it was now coming in your direction?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Whereas when you were sitting ...

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: In the opposite direction.

UNKNOWN: Yes, when you were sitting in the restaurant, you 
saw it going that way?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Going up.

UNKNOWN: And that was a matter of minutes?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: The interim?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Now, when you came out the second time, did 
you observe any other vehicle or any other persons in the street?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, Sir.  At the time there was so much fear 
and so much confusion, I was only concerned for my brother and I 
went straight onto the pavement where my brother was.

UNKNOWN: Okay.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: He was actually in the gutter, not on the 
pavement.  That is the second time when I came out.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  Now, the first time you went out and you 
pulled Mr Brode in, what did you see?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: The first time when I went out and pulled Mr 
Brode in?

UNKNOWN: When you went out and pulled Brode in, yes?