Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: As I say the violence inside Thokoza you know made it difficult for kids to realise their dreams.  A kid like Sibusiso is staying inside Thokoza, nobody knows that there was look alike of Webster inside Thokoza and he is not the only kid that is facing that situation, so many kids will stay inside Thokoza, some many people inside Thokoza.  The war  really cost a serious damage to them.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you trying to say that this young gentleman to whom you refer, has he got psychological or some other type of damage as a result of what happened inside Thokoza or what?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I think every kid inside Thokoza, psychologically they have a problem and it's unfortunate that some of them or their parents won't be in a position to help them.  I'll make an example of me.  As I'm talking with you I was admitted at Louis Pasteur some time last month for post-traumatic stress disorder and it had to do with the violence inside Thokoza and I can imagine those families whose parents are not working, they don't have money to take their kids for treatment and lastly I would like to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Machitje, this is what I don't understand, had it not been for Thokoza or what occurred in Thokoza, lost children would be in exactly the same position because of apartheid, not so?  That's why I'm trying to find out how is what happened in Thokoza related to the problems of the children today?  Did it make it worse, the fact that their parents haven't got money can be traced back to the apartheid regime, not so?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes it's so.

CHAIRPERSON: So what are you trying to say, how did what happened in Thokoza over those many months effect the children of today.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I don't know how to put this but what I'm trying to indicate here is when we talk of Thokoza, people think of violence.  People think of Khumalo Street and people think that everybody inside Thokoza never had a normal day to day life so the kid that I'm pointing currently, he was staying inside Thokoza and I don't have any knowledge what effect the violence has cost him but what I know and I wanted to indicate is if he was staying say out of Thokoza, around any other township, he will be famous and it's unfortunate that he is staying inside Thokoza and lastly, I'd like to apologise and when I say I want to apologise, I'm not apologising for people who died on the other side, IFP, no no, I'm not apologising for that because the violence which was alleged inside Thokoza killed people on both sides and I know people on both sides who died.  So I'm saying sorry for participating in a war that was alleged against a community and which led to so many people dying.  Thank you.

ADV MOTATA: But I'm interested in Sibusiso.  You say he looks like a young kid whereas he is eighteen.  So during this violence in Thokoza was he injured in the process or what happened because you make mention of him?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I mentioned it because I wanted to give you an example and I will say Sibusiso at one stage attempted to be an actor but because of violence it disappeared, it disappeared with Thokoza and it disappeared with Khumalo Street and his dream, I don't know if he will be in a position of reaching it or so it happened.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Mr Machitje?

MR MAKANJEE: That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKANJEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Patel have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: I do Honourable Chairperson but regarding Mr Samuel's request that Kasrils perhaps we should stand back down or should I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: How long are you going to be?

MS PATEL: About half an hour I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then I better think we interrupt then.

MS PATEL: Okay, before we do Honourable Chairperson, can we mark the exhibit that has been handed in Exhibit A?  It hasn't been done for the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Machitje, I hope you don't mind but for other pressing reasons we're going to ask you to stand down so that another witness can be called and dealt with and you will be recalled to answer questions from Mrs Patel, is that okay?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: It's okay, thanks.
WITNESS STANDS DOWN

CHAIRPERSON: You can call your witness.

MR MAKANJEE: I call Mr Ronnie Kasrils.

RONNIE KASRILS: (sworn states)

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Kasrils, are you the Deputy Minister of Defence?

RONNIE KASRILS: Yes I am.

MR MAKANJEE: I see.  Mr Kasrils, briefly describe the violence in the East Rand area?

RONNIE KASRILS: I think that it's well known in terms of the media coverage and the history to some degree but whether it's well known to South Africans who never set foot in Vosloorus, Thokoza is a different question and I must say that having arrived here today driving in the area for the first time since the election and the first time since having visited this area quite often on behalf of the ANC in the period where the conflict broke out on such a horrific scale in the latter half of 1990.  It was like coming back today to a different planet.  To be able to drive in the streets without fear, without tension, without the expectation of suddenly encountering any nature of danger was an extreme relief and what has struck me is the peace in the area and the tremendous efforts by the community to get the area going.  I wanted to just make that point in terms of a very strong impression on me in terms of coming to the hearing here today.
	But going back to 1990 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on and I don't want to burst your bubble.

RONNIE KASRILS: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: I say I don't want to burst your bubble but this peace and quiet that you talk about, the peace and quiet you talk about may very well be welcome but if you see these chairs that are empty in the back of the hall, we have been informed there's certain section of this community perceived to be aligned to a particular political party who cannot or for some reason fear to come here.  Now from our perspective that's just not on because the purpose of us going through this process is to really heal the nation and I was wondering maybe, a person in your position could whisper a word or two in the right ears?  Well not necessarily, I'm just making a small request.

RONNIE KASRILS: Thanks, I listened carefully to the point.  I would like to comment though.  I wonder what the true reason could be because in actual fact the ANC and Inkatha Freedom Party are in a Government of National Unity.  Today we work closely with the leadership of that party.  There are very cordial relations and for the last several years, certainly since the election, both those political parties at community level as well as at provincial and national level have been coming together to discuss the common programme and common problems so I'm not sure whether there's - one can say there is intimidation in any way.

ADV DE JAGER: We would think if the leadership's example would work through to the grassroots level and the grassroots be aware, as you said now, of the cooperation between the leaders it would certainly contribute to a peaceful solution here.

RONNIE KASRILS: Well I am aware of discussions that take place at the community level, even here on the East Rand and of people who are now from various political parties, certainly the ANC, local leaders who visit the hostels and have discussions and I have been given to understand that this takes place in a very normal way so I must say I can't really comment, I think it's unfortunate but I must say your Honour, I have attended a lot of TRC hearings throughout the country and it's not unusual at times to find many empty chairs unfortunately.