Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot remember this Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: My instructions from him are that you assaulted him with a Mr Marx but you gave up after you did not get the information that you required.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember this, I cannot remember assaulting him together with Mr Marx.

MR NYOKA: Maybe you are mixing with other assaults that you may have perpetrated, that's why you cannot remember.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Does that concluded your questioning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot remember this.

MR NYOKA: The reason why I'm asking you this is because in your application you just mention him casually in passing as if he's someone you never met, you never assaulted.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I have direct knowledge from end of '78 beginning of 1979 when he left the RSA for military training.

MR NYOKA: The final aspect I won't spend more than 15 minutes on or 10 minutes, is about your warning statement.  In your warning statement you said that: "On the 8th of September 1981 to the 11th of September 1981, a written statement was taken by Captain Roelofse in your presence wherein Siphiwe Mthimkhulu explained his involvement and his part in the distribution of ANC pamphlets and that this statement was later typed, photocopied and signed by Mr Mthimkhulu.  How long was this statement Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember how long this statement was.  It is difficult to remember after 15 years to remember exactly how many pages this contained.

MR NYOKA: The reason why I am asking it is because when I was reading this I was puzzled why a statement would take an entire four days to write - it's incredible, he must have been writing something like a Bible.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know, Colonel Roelofse took that statement Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: Here you've got a confession or an admission, why did you release him after all that trouble?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I don't know but I can give an explanation.  I don't know whether that statement contained any acknowledgement of guilt but the admissibility of that this statement, I doubt it - I don't know whether it could have been used in a court or stand up in court.  I don't know what the reason therefore was when they were released.

MR NYOKA: Before the 10 day discussion began, you spoke to your friend Mr du Plessis - perhaps let me say, is Mr du Plessis your bosom friend because he said he's your bosom friend?  Is he your bosom friend first?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He's my colleague, he was my commanding officer Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: So he's not your bosom friend?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, in the context we are friends, he's my commanding officer and that is all that I can say.

MR NYOKA: Before the 10 day discussions began, why did you not present this confession to Mr du Plessis and say: "Before you do anything gentlemen I've got this confession, can we not act on it legally"?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I don't understand what Mr Nyoka is referring to or trying to suggest, I've already said - I said the statement - I was uncertain about the statement, I don't know whether there were any admissions of guilt and they - he must have seen it.  The decision in that regard was up to Mr du Plessis, I don't know what Mr du Plessis had decided in this case and I cannot comment on this.

MR NYOKA: Be that as it may, did you not say to Mr du Plessis: "Please gentlemen, discuss that statement that was taken from Mr Mthimkhulu", it may have led to his being alive today?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I didn't do that.

MR NYOKA: Do you know whether that was discussed at that 10 day meeting - the statement?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: You further said that in Jeffrey's Bay police station the interrogation took place in an office from the 1st of July 1981, that is from seven to twenty past two, that is for seven hours and again on the following day, the 2nd of July 1981, it took place from ten past one to five to five, that is almost four hours.  And then the last one was on the 4th of July, it took place from half past seven to 3 o'clock, that is for seven and a half hours.  This is a total of 18 and a half hours of interrogation within a space of four days, is that human?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If one looks back at this then I must agree with you, it is possibly not human.

MR NYOKA: So at that stage you did not think it was inhuman, it's only not that you are applying for amnesty you think it's inhuman.  Is that what you're saying?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: Thank you very much.  What was it that you were interrogating him about for a full 18 and a half hours, what was it?  I'm sure even the questioners were bored with their questions.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I don't believe that we became bored.  I'd been giving the task of interrogating him, I carried out my task and that doesn't mean that I was there for all those hours, we couldn't all simultaneously interrogate him after all.

MR NYOKA: My question still remains, what was it that you were interrogating him about for an entire 18 and a half hours, you have not answered that one?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I have to think back, I interrogated many people but in brief it concerned his activities, the distribution of the pamphlet, where he had obtained the pamphlet, his activities etc.

MR NYOKA: You said the questioning was being done yourself and Captain Roelofse and that Mr Tongata and Mr Bobelo were just present.  There were four of you, two were doing the interrogation two were not doing anything.  Why was their presence necessary if they were not doing any questioning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, as I've already stated and explained a Black member, a colleague had been allocated to every White member and Bobelo at that stage worked with me and Tongata with Roelofse and they were present.

MR NYOKA: Were they doing anything in their presence because I think that was a waste of tax payers money?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It could be so Mr Chairperson, but I think it was necessary.

MR NYOKA: Did you have - do you have any bad relation with Mr Bobelo?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I do not have a bad relationship with him.

MR NYOKA: Why did he then say that you and him drowned Mr Mthimkhulu repeatedly at Jeffrey's Bay?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I didn't do it and I don't know where at Jeffrey's Bay.  You are making a general statement - I don't know where at Jeffrey's Bay, I don't know of such an incident.

MR NYOKA: Sorry, sorry, it was at Sanlam.

ADV SANDI: Was it Sanlam or Jeffrey's Bay?

MR NYOKA: It was at Sanlam.  Mr Mthimkhulu was dirty, you wanted to wash him, you came in and the two of you drowned him repeatedly.  I'm saying if there were no bad relations, why would he lie against you?  Can you answer that question please?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, it astonishes me because if I remember correctly the allegation had also been made against Mr Bobelo and I think he had also made such a statement.  I can't remember exactly what he said at that stage but it also astonishes me when I consulted with my legal counsel, I am equally astonished.

MR NYOKA: Mr Bobelo further said that the wrists of Mr Mthimkhulu and his legs were swollen.  Is that so - was that so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so.

MR NYOKA: What caused them to be swollen - in particular the legs, what caused them to be swollen?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can only speculate Mr Chairperson, it could have been because he had been standing for long during his interrogation.