Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

CHAIRPERSON: From your upbringing and training about hating the ANC because they were the enemies of the people, did it not cause you to lose your cool when you saw that
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CHAIRMAN	69	F S ERASMUS
demonstration?

ANSWER: Not at that stage.  At that point I did not feel that I was going to reach breaking point or anything like that.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that the ANC were your enemies and there were such a large number of them engaged in actual protest, you didn't reach breaking point?

ANSWER: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It was later that you did reach breaking point and it is amazing that it coincided with the same time that Harrington reached breaking point.  Isn't that an amazing coincidence?

ANSWER: As I said, Sir, I did not know what his feelings were, but that was my feeling at the time.  I cannot speak for what he felt at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about whether you knew his feelings, but you heard that he also reached breaking point and you reached breaking point, and my question is that is an amazing coincidence that it should happen at the same time.

ANSWER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You felt so strongly about it that you had no difficulty in coming to the conclusion that this man should be killed.

ANSWER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that after he had been shot you felt a kind of relief.

ANSWER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That you had done the right thing.

ANSWER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You felt that that was your duty to do what you
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CHAIRMAN	70	F S ERASMUS
did.

ANSWER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you decide to withhold informing your superiors about it?  If it was such a correct thing to do why did you not tell your superiors well, we have carried out our jobs as good policemen, this is what we did.  Why didn't you do it?

ANSWER: At that point we decided that no one was to say anything.   Because Mr Harrington was a senior I decided that this was something that was going to remain with us and it was part of our duties at the Riot Squad, not just assaults and so forth, but it was part of what I had been taught and at that stage I did not see why we should report it because the senior member in our group said that no one was to say anything about it and I accepted it as such.

CHAIRPERSON: But in your eyes you had done nothing wrong.  You had done something very, very valiant and brave.  There was no need for you to be ashamed of what you had done, so why didn't you report it?

ANSWER: You know, the assaults which usually took place there, as I said, where I said the man should be killed, I decided that we shouldn't talk about it mainly because I had come up with the suggestion too.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?  Because you were doing nothing wrong in your eyes?  You were doing something perfectly legitimate as far as you are concerned.

ANSWER: As I said, at that stage I did not think about reporting it.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it is not a question of you didn't think about reporting it, you took a conscious decision not to report it.  My question was why.
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CHAIRMAN	71	F S ERASMUS

ANSWER: Because I think firstly I was afraid of being prosecuted of the murder that is why I also agreed that we shouldn't report it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you seriously believe that you would be prosecuted?

ANSWER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

ANSWER: That is correct, and because I was trained to fight the ANC I felt that it was not wrong to take this man's life.

CHAIRPERSON: ... My question is, if you did do something that was right and a man was killed why didn't you report?  And you say you didn't think about it.  And my question was, you did, because you took a decision not to report it.

ANSWER: That is right.

UNKNOWN: ... Harrington share a cell at Grootvlei Prison?

ANSWER: No.

UNKNOWN: When you came to prepare your summary of your evidence, did you consult with one another?

ANSWER: Yes, we consulted with our advocate together.

UNKNOWN: ... summaries together.

ANSWER: Yes, you could say so, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: ... because they seem to agree word for word in places.

ANSWER: No, I was not told to do it in this fashion.  This is how I wrote it down myself.

UNKNOWN: ... page 5 "in die bos" and you look at Constable Harrington's page 10 "in die bos".  You both say you felt "verlig" afterwards and you both end up saying "I was not at all worried about being prosecuted for
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MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE	72	F S ERASMUS
a case of murder or a charge of assault.  I did  what I had to.  It was what was expected of me indirectly".

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And you say you both just happened to write this down.  Let's get on now to your story of what happened.  You stopped the vehicle you told us at the bottle store.

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Is that the same place as one of the offloading or loading points for special constables?

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: So where were you standing, at a bottle store or just outside the bottle store?

ANSWER: Outside the bottle store.

UNKNOWN: And that is where Mr Jama tried to escape and you caught him, is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: What sort of bottle store was it?

ANSWER: An ordinary bottle store like all other bottle stores.   That sells all sorts of liquor.  A normal bottle store.

UNKNOWN: ... beer and that sort of thing.

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And yet immediately after Mr Jama had tried to escape he was loaded alone into the back of your vehicle, is that so?

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Bengu and Mr Madlala drove off to his father's shop to get some Coke, is that so?

ANSWER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Why didn't you get it at the
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MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE	73	F S ERASMUS
bottle store?

ANSWER: At that point they said to us, my instinct was I gave him the money and he said that he was going to go and buy a beer.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible)

ANSWER: It probably was.

UNKNOWN: ... you lied to the court about it, didn't you?  And you said in your statement "Ons het die inligting van die hof weerhou" - "We withheld the information in court since we thought we would be acquitted of murder and back at the Unit we would explain how we could allow specials to drive in the State vehicle".

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: ... outside a bottle store why did you let them drive off in a government vehicle?

ANSWER: It was probably a mistake on my part to allow the specials to go to that place and go and buy us the cooldrink.

UNKNOWN: A dangerous man who was by then known to have taken part in ANC  attacks, who tried to escape, was left alone in the back of the vehicle.  Can you explain that, constable?

ANSWER: The firearms were all removed from the vehicle and we knew that the special constables would bring him back to us.  We worked so closely together that at that stage I trusted them to bring him back.

UNKNOWN: ... why not send two with him to guard him?  Why leave him alone in the back of a vehicle, a man who had shown he wanted to escape?  Is there any other explanation that you are withholding from us, constable?

ANSWER: No, Sir, I cannot give any other explanation.
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MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE	74	F S ERASMUS

UNKNOWN: Your behaviour seems to me to be incomprehensible.  And the fact that both you and Mr Harrington for some reason wanted to keep it from the court because you thought you'd be in such trouble with the Force for letting these policemen drive a vehicle.

ANSWER: That is correct, we would have got into trouble at the Unit for having given them the vehicle to drive.

UNKNOWN: But not for killing a man.

ANSWER: That is correct.