Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Can I just latch on to that by saying that without casting aspersions at everybody who (indistinct).  It is possible (indistinct) to clarify one's mind.  And as I say I am not casting aspersions so I don't like (indistinct) direct evidence.  That is why we are here (indistinct) account not (indistinct) which might be (indistinct).  Number 2 is that we (indistinct) for the church as a locus standi (indistinct).  There is nothing that stops the church from issuing any action (indistinct) we didn't have the locus standi and we (indistinct) they were perfectly within their rights to proceed and not (indistinct).

FRANK CHIKANE: Chairperson I just want to deal with that question of why drastic action has not been taken.   I agree with Mr Mufamadi (indistinct).   I would like to say, Chairperson, the impression should not be taken that responsible people like ourselves would actually have just (indistinct).  If you note at paragraph 31 of our submission we felt this is of vital importance there are two things which (indistinct).  When we got (indistinct) about that situation we took two actions basically.  One action was to communicate with Mr Mandela himself (indistinct) difficult (indistinct) and I negotiated with the lawyers to communicate this and just to ask Mr Mandela to persuade Mrs Mandela to do the following, hand over the young people alleged to be missing to be community leaders as a way of assuring the community that the youth are still alive because there was a suspicion they were dead, and to allow the Crisis Committee to assist with the dismantling of the club and to relocate its members away from Mrs Mandela.  And 3 make alternative security arrangements for her outside the club members.   And at the same time I was troubled and I took the opportunity to meet Mr Tambo himself and I even suggested, and this is the first time (indistinct) that I suggested a very drastic step.  We don't have a police force (indistinct).  We believe the police force (indistinct).   But at that time we did not have a police force (indistinct).  Both the police force and the army at the time were (indistinct) and there was no way (indistinct).  And I then said to (indistinct) Tambo why can't you (indistinct) you know to get these people out of the house.  And that was a very, very drastic thing to say because if we tried we would have had to organise a (indistinct) so it wasn't as easy as that that we actually ignored the (indistinct).  It was a political crisis of the time that there was no credible police force we could resort to because the same policemen who managed that situation like in the Khotso House bombing I now learned that the policemen who came first to investigate about the bombing was the one who managed the operation.  And so you couldn't go to that police force and that (indistinct) to we felt the ultimate people in the liberation movement at that time was Mr Mandela himself and Mr Tambo.  And that between them they would find a way of doing whatever they need to do.  The same applies to the bombing of the (indistinct) office in Braamfontein.  The same position, the bomb (indistinct) office in Braamfontein next to the (indistinct) and tried (indistinct) tried to blame us for attempting to blow our own offices and I think Mr Vally you will know that (indistinct) they locked us up together (indistinct).

MR NTSEBEZA: Can I just ask was an interdict ever discussed with you by Bishop Storey?   Was it ever discussed at any stage, let alone (indistinct).  Did he ever raise the issue of whether you as people who had visited the house and had made the observations that (indistinct).  Did he ever raise the possibility of getting an interdict and did he ever solicit your opinion by way of (indistinct) to support that allegation?

MR MOKOENA: Well I don't remember a formal approach of that nature (indistinct) committee members are saying the same.  I have just been advised, Chairperson, that I have used the words remove the young people and that it could be misunderstood.  What I was referring to in particular, you see there were young people amongst the club who were said to me MK members themselves.  And therefore the submission to President Tambo is that if there are MK members in the club why can't you remove them (indistinct) because they should be under the command of the MK.  Then you deal with the rest of the others easier because they become welfare cases, we can take them to places when the SACC was running centres like (indistinct).  I just wanted to correct it because I will be misunderstood.

FRANK CHIKANE: Also in fairness to Bishop Storey we indicated at some point that we were (indistinct) and sometimes some members of this committee would be at a particular place in the absence of the others and matters would be raised with them and when we do meet together we would share information and so on.  What I noticed here in this particular entry, it was an entry into a diary, is that it is not said as to who from the Crisis Committee he met on that particular day to discuss this matter except that they do make reference to Mr Aubrey Mokoena.  But I am saying that we don't have the members of the Crisis Committee that he may have met to discuss this with.  And perhaps that will also help if we can try to establish from him who in particular (indistinct) because that can take us forward but as far as we who are here are concerned we are saying we have no recollection of a discussion about an interdict, an discussion in which we said we have no mandate to be of assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to be fair to Peter Storey he is in fact saying that in a - he used the expression (indistinct) that you were not quite certain - you were not the same - it wasn't the same personnel that he met with because of the exigencies of the period so that is a point he would accept.

MR VALLY: I want to move on but before I move on just one comment.

MR MOKOENA: Sorry Chairperson ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, no we ought to (indistinct) he has asked a question, unless you are going to answer the question (indistinct).

MR MOKOENA: No, no Chairperson, with due respect.  He uses the word team here you see.  On page 4 he says PJS and Verryn meet Crisis team.  Now a team is never one person in my language and that vindicates the point that Mr (indistinct)  is making.

MR VALLY: Just one comment before I move on to another point, Arch, which is this, that on this particular issue as stands in this memorandum, both Bishop Storey and Bishop Verryn were personally present.  This is not hearsay, this is correct evidence, both of whom have given evidence to us on this issue.  But I want to move on now, Arch.  You have mentioned to us that one of the actions you have taken was in contacting the ANC.  I refer you to page 74 of the second section 29.  74.