Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR MOLOI: Isn't it customary that the officers in the police force examine these dockets and see if proper investigation has been done and if there is the necessary follow-up on all those investigations?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that normally happens.

MR MOLOI: In these particular instances you mentioned, do you know if somebody else other than you as perpetrators were charged?

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't know of any other person.

MR MOLOI: So, those dockets inasfar as you are concerned are still lying there unattended?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR MOLOI: Why would that happen if there are officers in the police force charged with the duty to follow up such instances?  In this particular case, why would it happen?

MR MBAMBO: Because the person in charge of eSikhawini at the time was Brigadier Umzumela and he knew about these cases.  Secondly, Major Mxunu in charge of the Riot Investigation Unit at eSikhawini was my commander and that was the unit that investigated political murders.  He also knew about our operations, although I came to learn this when I got arrested for Sergeant Dlamini's murder.  I didn't know that he also had knowledge, I only knew of Brigadier Umzumela.
	When I got arrested for Sergeant Dlamini's murder that is when I learnt that he was also involved in these operations.  So in that way I do not see how it could have been possible for the investigation of these murders to be successful if they were being investigated by a unit headed by a member of hit squads.

MR MOLOI: So is your answer, is it your answer that it was possible in these several instances you referred to here because the involvement of the officers in the police force?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: Had they not known, had they not known you as the hit squad was involved, would those dockets have been ignored?

MR MBAMBO: No, they would have been thoroughly investigated.

MR MOLOI: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moloi.  Mr Motata, do you have any questions?

ADV MOTATA: Just two Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Mr Mbambo, I just want to ask you two questions for clarification that I should understand perfectly in my mind.  What you have told us is that your hit squad operations would be covert, did I understand you correctly?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: And again we knew that Prince Gideon Zulu was in the upper hierarchy of the hit squads, would we regard him as well as a hit squad member because he belonged to this hierarchy?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Let's return to the rally of the 16th February 1992.  Would I be correct to say the same was to take place during the day?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: And you further testified that that was intended to wipe out the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: So your operations as the hit squads, would you carry then even covert, even during the day?

MR MBAMBO: On that particular day we would not be working but it would be Amabuto who would carry out these activities.  It would be made to seem like the KwaZulu Police had lost control of the marches and that is how the destruction had come about.

ADV MOTATA: Now, would the Prince, that is Gideon Zulu, carrying a 303, would that still give the public that impression that it is the Amabuto who would have gone out of control when a Prince of that nature and respected be seen with such a weapon in his possession?

MR MBAMBO: I think he became very emotional and therefore could not control himself when he wanted to fight back at the time.  I was forced to hold him down because of the shots that were being fired from Sonebelo Hostel.

ADV MOTATA: At the point of disembarkment you mentioned that there was a concern or complaint by the ANC people who met you and said this is potential conflict, do you recall you saying so?

MR MBAMBO: ...[No English translation]

ADV MOTATA: When the - for instance, when the IFP people alighted from the buses and had to undertake this long march, you recall?

MR MBAMBO: I do.

ADV MOTATA: That there was a warning that this is a potential conflict situation?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

ADV MOTATA: Because Prince Zulu, as I understand you, was present, was there a word of advice to him that the ANC for instance has shown this concern?

MR MBAMBO: No, nobody told him that because the ANC leaders spoke to Brigadier Umzumela and other officers who were in a police casspir.  They laid this complaint with Brigadier Umzumela and he appeared as a person who was going to try and fix the situation but he did not do anything about it.

ADV MOTATA: Let's return to your incarceration.  In short, the understanding I have is that the IFP has washed it's hands of you people, you and your co-applicants, would I be interpreting you correctly?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct, even though the IFP tries to pretend as if they have not abandoned us because in public they speak of us as criminals but they send their leaders to the Westville Prison to talk to us and discuss the situation.  We view this a mock of our intelligence because we realise that they have abandoned us although they deny this when they meet with us.  Therefore I agree with you that in our view the IFP has abandoned us.

ADV MOTATA: And again when Doctor Sipho Umzumela spoke to you and said: "Look we are not interested in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission because that is a creation of the ANC, you nevertheless went ahead and lodged your applications with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: And again you find that they speak words of referring to you as criminals, that must be hurting?

MR MBAMBO: That hurts very much.

ADV MOTATA: But from a question here which puzzles me Mr Mbambo, is that you still despite all that regard yourself as a member of the IFP despite all what has occurred or obtained, you still regard yourself as a member of the IFP.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.  I have intentions of creating reconciliation between the ANC and the IFP.  I know the workings of the IFP in and out and therefore I and my co-applicants and others are in a position to create this reconciliation between ANC and IFP members because we speak with one voice on matters that have we have experienced.
	If I were to leave the IFP now I would not be able to persuade other IFP members, to persuade them to reconcile with the ANC.  If I were to leave the IFP I would regard it as an enemy, therefore I wouldn't be able to persuade them.  Therefore if I do not leave the Party I will be able to work with them as brothers and we will be able to create this reconciliation between the parties.  That is the reason.  
	I am not a member of the IFP just because I have intentions of fulfilling the objectives of the IFP but I intend using the powers that I have.  To use such powers to create peace between the ANC and the IFP, that is my main objective.

ADV MOTATA: Let's imagine a situation here Mr Mbambo, that with you appearing before us you have the belief that you may get amnesty, that should you get this amnesty would you find a home within the IFP?  If you get out of jail, would you find a home, a warm reception other than the reconciliatory work you are doing in prison between the members of the ANC and the IFP who are incarcerated?