Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

CHAIRPERSON: And the purpose of the suspension was to investigate the cause of the conflict between the SDU members and the ANC Youth League in Moleleki?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Your arms were then confiscated in the process?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But the ANC Youth League did not surrender their arms?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that the ANC Youth League broke away from the SDU, I'm talking about Moleleki section, you remember that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did ANC Youth Leagues formally announce their withdrawal from the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, they did not do it formally.  There was no meeting held where they pronounced that they are separating from us.

CHAIRPERSON: But how was their intention to withdraw from the SDU communicated to the members of the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They were no longer attending the patrols, we only saw two of them and the rest had already left.  I already alluded to the fact that there was another group of youths and they occupied the shacks that were vacant and we realised that they were engaged in criminal acts, because one day when they were asleep we got into their shacks and we found car radios and many things.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this group of youths which now occupied block F, were they members of the ANC Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Some were members of the Youth League and some I did not know because I did not know their origin,  we heard that they were members of the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Subsequent to their withdrawal from the SDU's were they ever approached for reasons for their withdrawal?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We did not approach them.

CHAIRPERSON: On a Thursday when you returned from custody in connection with your trial, Lucky approached you and told you that he wanted to assault members of the SDU, is that what he told you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Let me rectify that Sir.  He did not come to me, we did not meet, we met on Friday when he said he has already organised the youth because they want to assault these men.  I don't what he referred to when he said they were an obstacle in their way.

CHAIRPERSON: Which men was he referring to?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The members of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: He told you that he had already organised the youth because the SDU wanted to attack them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, no.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he tell you then?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He said they have organised the youth and during those days they were going to attach those men.  When I asked why, he said their guns had been confiscated and the same Friday I went to report to Ntjebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Who had organised the youth?  Who did he say had organised the youth?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He said they themselves organised the youth, he did not specifically tell me.  He said they themselves had organised the youth so that those men be assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words Lucky told you that the ANC Youth League had organised the youth?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the intention of organising the youth was to assault the SDU members?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the SDU members were an obstacle?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why he would - he knew that you were a member of the SDU, did he not?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He knew very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Now do you know why he would tell you this?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: According to my recollection I think I told you that when I arrived in Moleleki the ANC Youth League was patrolling and I patrolled with them.  When the stability unit was troubling them I gave them money so that can run away, so he came to me knowing that I am the person who assisted them.  And I tried to convince him that: "Look here, if you attack them there's going to be a huge conflict".

CHAIRPERSON: Did he consider you to be sympathetic towards the ANC Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He knew that I'm a peace-loving person,  I was on good terms with everybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntjebe Ndondolo and others went to the Red Cross to seek assistance for the removal of Bulelwa's body, is that right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[End of tape 2, day 2, side A - no follow-on sound]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: ...[no sound] Sepo Baloi Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: And the driver but I just happen to forget the driver's name, they were three.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to Mokwena?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Which Mokwena are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: This is now Mokwena who was captured I think in the early hours on the 7th of December 1993.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I know what happened to Mokwena.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well what happened to him?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Mokwena was left alone because he just small, he was a little boy.

MR MALAN: You say Mokwena was a little boy.  According to our records Mokwena was older than Mavuso, Peter Mavuso Modishwa and he was older than Thokozani Buthelezi and he was older than Mtumaleng Moetsi(?), why were the other boys then killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson yes, you are referring to their ages but when we looked at then he was a small person in body, we must have thought that he was little.

CHAIRPERSON: There is an allegation somewhere in the papers to the effect that the persons who were captured and eventually killed had been told that on that evening the instability unit would come for them and therefore they should go and seek refuge in a shack in F section -in block F, Moleleki section, do you know anything about that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, I do not know anything about those allegations.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you can recall only one youth of those who had been captured was released?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I mentioned Mokwena from the onset, he was the first one that was captured together with this other one, which means that Mokwena is alive today.  I mentioned this yesterday because I said yesterday: "One of them has since died".  Maybe you did not understand me well, I'm sorry about that part.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, I understood you very well.  What you did say is that, as far as you can recall only one person was released because it had been discovered that he had been captured by mistake.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I remember I said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is this person?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I mentioned that Ngobese's child was released.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mokwena would be the second person who was also released?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from those two, do you know of any other person who were released?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I told you already that Tusanang managed to escape.  I told you already that we went out in two groups, maybe the other group caught people and they released them, I don't know but I know of these two plus the one who escaped which means that there are three.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Vuyani Shabalala?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: There's an allegation that Vuyani Shabalala was amongst who were taken to the veld where the rest of the persons were killed but that he survived the shooting, do you anything about that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I discovered in jail that one of the eight people survived, he managed to wake up.  But according to the way we assaulted them and killed them, we were sure that nobody was going to survive.  It really took me by surprise that Shabalala survived.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you know who the person is who survived?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was told that it is Shabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a further allegation that all in all 13 youths and one adult had been - were abducted, do you know?