Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-30

MR LEWIN: Sorry to interrupt you mama.  Could I bring you back to your husband's death and the stories there?  If you could tell us a little bit more about that because we need to move on, if we may.  Sorry to do that to you.  You mentioned that he was actually charged and sentenced with other people.  How many were there who were charged with him?

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: In his sentence he was with three people in that case.

MR LEWIN: And were they all hanged with him at the same time?

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: The three of them were hanged at the same time.

MR LEWIN: Now, could you tell us a little bit about him?  You say that he was a herbalist or people asked him for herbs.  Is that what he actually did?

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: Yes, that is correct.

MR LEWIN: And was he a member of any political party?

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: I did not start from the beginning.  I started from where he was going to be hanged.  If I had a chance to
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explain about where whole thing started, you would know that he was a politician because he was a member of the PAC when I met him in 1959.

MR LEWIN: And it was when your daughter went off, was she following in his footsteps, as it were?

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: I have got the belief that this child of mine was not in that line because in my house the ideas of panafricanism were not so strong because I am an ANC member.  I would like to say if we were discussing with my children and we were talking about history and other problems around, I discovered that my child was fighting for the education of quality.  That they were against Afrikaans as the medium of instruction.

MR LEWIN: Okay, going back again to your husband.  I mean, what do you feel now?  Do you feel that had you been able to get proper representation for him, he would not have been hanged?

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: This matter of my husband, I want to say that it is very difficult for me because I do not have the truth of what happened because he died saying that he did nothing wrong.  That is why I came to the Truth Commission because if I knew what was the reason for his death, I do not think I would be here today because the case was a criminal case about a person who was killed.  If I heard the real information that he was there maybe I would not be here today.  I would be here on the matter of my daughter.

MR LEWIN: Mrs Rivers, thank you very much.  If I could now hand back to the Chairperson and perhaps other people who have more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions.

MS MKHIZE: I am going to ask one question.  I want to get
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clarity about your husband.  When you say he was a member of the PAC, do you mean that he was very active?  What is it exactly that he was doing there?  Was he a leader because in your statement you did not get a chance of explaining that one.

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: My husband was not that active, but when we met, just before we got married in 1959, he was coming from Sophia Town.  I was coming from Alexandra.  He was just a member, but I do not remember seeing him as a very busy person in that organisation.  I think he was just an ordinary member.

MS MKHIZE: I am asking this question, mam, because I want to see if this, that his death, how do I reconcile the two.  The politics, being a member of a political organisation and being sentenced for this crime.

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: When I asked him while he was still in jail he said they told him that, they asked him why was he, he was a white, but why was he helping the blacks now because he was a coloured.

MS MKHIZE: I do not get it clearly when you say he was helping the blacks.  How was he helping the black people?

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: While he was away for years I do not know what he was doing because the people that he was arrested with were black people.  He was a coloured person.

MS MKHIZE: In your statement you said he was tortured during imprisonment.  When he was being tortured, what is it that he was saying?  What is it that they wanted?

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: They were torturing him because they wanted to say that he was with those people when they were killing that person, but he was not around.  They were torturing him because they wanted him to say, yes, I was there.
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MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much mam.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Rivers.  It is very difficult to give you comforting words to give you some strength.  We do not have enough words to sympathise with you, but we are going to ask the Lord to be with you and bless you.  We can see that even if there was a mistake those people did, the operator did, it shows clearly that if the people are being hanged, it is very difficult to rectify the mistake afterwards.  Even if they could realise afterwards that Frank Rivers was not there, they made a mistake by implicating him in that killing.  It is very difficult to bring him back to life after realising that mistake, but we are going to try to investigate what actually happened and, as you are saying, that you do not even know till today the truth of the matter.  You are not satisfied.  We are going to try and help you.  Did your daughter come back, the one who left the country, the one you think that they are talking about the skipping rope?

NTABATABI LOUISA RIVERS: My daughter came back with police after a few days.  They said to me did you know where your daughter was?  I said, no, you are the people who know.  They told me that she was in Angola and Tanzania, all the places in Africa.  When the exiles were coming back home, they came to me and they said your daughter is coming back.  Truly, my daughter came back.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
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