Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

BONGANI KHUMALO: I never spoke to him again.  The last day was the 23rd.

ADV SANDI: Did you ever wish to speak with him at all?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I had it, Sir.

ADV SANDI: I didn't follow that.  You said you had what?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I had the wish to meet with him and talk with him but then because of the arrest I could not meet with him because I was arrested on the day of committing what I did at the farm, that is on the 25th.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if he ever made any attempt to contact you after you had been arrested?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It was not possible Sir to meet with him, that's how I explained it.

ADV SANDI: Did he send anything or message to you whilst you were in police custody and after you had been convicted and sentenced?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He never came to me.  He resided in Mutsiabelo and I resided in Qwaqwa.  I don't know what the end of this was.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members.  I was still asking about Siabelo.  Let alone by being told by Daniel Makara, did you know yourself Siabelo Pama, not necessarily whether you had met him, had you ever heard about that person and what was he?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I knew him to be the Chief Commander of APLA.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who told you about that?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Daniel Makara.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.

ADV SANDI: Did anybody else tell you the same about Siabelo Pama after Daniel Makara had told you that he was the Chief Commander of APLA?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, the Africans who were with me in Qwaqwa used to talk about him.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who took the purse and the money?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It's Jabulani Shabalala in other words.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And who took the "windbuks", the air gun?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I don't understand, what do you mean by that Sir?

JUDGE DE JAGER: And air gun is a gun that you would shoot birds with, small birds, a pellet gun.

BONGANI KHUMALO: I do not know what you are talking about.  I did not see that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you saw the purse with the money that Shabalala took?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, he took it.  I saw the purse because he had it in the hand, but he did not remove the purse and we did not leave with the purse.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did you see it in his hand?

BONGANI KHUMALO: We were still at the farm, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: In the house or outside the house?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Inside the house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khumalo, let me ask you, just for the clarity for the Committee, so that everybody understands.  How did you meet Daniel Makara?

BONGANI KHUMALO: In my explanation I had mentioned that he used to frequent Qwaqwa and I was also a person trying to mix with the members of the organisation because of my friends that were outside and I - so that I knew that this was the PAC organisation.  That is why he was also the first person that I managed to talk to him among all the Africans that were there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were there any members of PAC in Qwaqwa?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, they were still present.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you are telling the Committee that Daniel Makwara went to Qwaqwa where there were members of PAC and you just happened to meet him there whilst you were not a member of PAC then yourself?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was always mingling with the members of the PAC and that's how I came to know him.  He explained to me that he lived in Mutsiabelo and I also know Mutsiabelo quite a little.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee who were the members of the PAC you were mingling with in Qwaqwa?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I don't know whether they are well-known people but those I mingled with, one could determine from their talk and from the cards that they showed me that they were members.  They all stayed in Phuthaditjhaba.  We were just people acquainted to each other and it ended up that I met with Makara.  I do not want to lie and commit myself ...(no sound)

MR MBANDAZAYO: What were you going to do after you had finished your task at the farm?  What were your instructions?

BONGANI KHUMALO: The instruction - may you please repeat the question? ...(end of tape)  (Tape 4 English and Floor - inaudible)

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...of Mr Odendaal and repossess arms and whatever you can lay your hands on, if I'm correct.  Now what were you going to do after that with all those things you have laid your hands on?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was going to take them to my Commander Daniel Makara.  I was going to meet with him In Phuthaditjhaba.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it your evidence that he never gave you any firearms, any weapon to go and pull this mission and he did not give you any other manpower, it was just you alone, to go and pull off this mission?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson, I was alone and he never gave me a firearm or any kind of a weapon, it was the way I planned.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At the time you were given this mission, were you aware what PAC stands for?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I didn't understand your question Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At the time you were given this mission, were you aware of the aims and objectives of the PAC?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, I knew, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(indistinct - mike not on) about the aims and objectives of PAC?

BONGANI KHUMALO: The objectives of PAC as I was a member of the Task Force, was to look for weapons, to fight for the land which has been confiscated by white farmers.  I was told again that among the white farmers, some of them were police or SADF reservists, that is why the operation Great Storm was launched by Siabelo Pama.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khumalo, what do you say to the relatives of the deceased?  What do you say to them?

BONGANI KHUMALO: To the members of the family I would say to them what I did I did because of the instruction.  I regret about what happened, what I did to them, because that was an order, then I know that it cannot ...(indistinct) to execute an order, that is why I did that.  I ask for forgiveness from them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally, with the exception that you were given an order and all those things to go and pull off this mission, can you tell the Committee the reason why they should grant you amnesty in respect of this incident?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I say that because of the following reasons because I did not plan this personally, I don't know as to whether I explain it enough or correctly.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: I notice that we have gone just a few - a minute or two past five.  I'm conscious that some applicants come with members- came with members of the Department of Correctional Services and they have time constraints.  I apologise that we had to do what we did, but could I request you that tomorrow whoever is under your custody, to be brought here that we commence at 9 so that we might move faster?
	Mr Coetzer, I think you are aware that people have got to go back and there are those procedures, paperwork and what have you, that we stop now and commence again at 9 tomorrow morning.

MR COETZER: No objections Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Khumalo tomorrow you would be asked questions by Mr Coetzer, Ms Mtanga and if one or two things are not clear in our minds, a few questions will be asked, but we have to stop here at this juncture.  You will be back here tomorrow at 9.  I have just arranged with the members of the Department of Correctional Services that they should meet us halfway.  We thank you for today.  We'll see you again tomorrow.  We adjourn until tomorrow 9 a.m.
COMMITTEE  ADJOURNS