Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

CHAIRPERSON: Today is Thursday the 15th of October 1998, and we are continuing with the application of O.A. de Meillon and two others.
	The judgment which is being made available now of Grobbelaar J, I assume that will just go into the record.  Adv Steenkamp has pages 108 to 110.

ADV STEENKAMP: That is correct Mr Chairman.  I have taken the liberty of making available copies already of the judgment.  I received those documents, copies from Adv Prinsloo.  The original is in the possession, or a copy of the original is in his possession Mr Chairman.
	I am not sure if it is Exhibit C now or C1.  I presume it must be C, or just part of the record them Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the judgment, I didn't want to give it an exhibit number.  I thought that that would normally have been part of the record in any case.
	We will number those 108 - 110.  Mr Coetzee, I think we have heard the application of the second applicant.

MR COETZEE: All right, I am calling Mr Willem Johannes van Zyl as the third applicant.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, just for the record, Mr Van Zyl's application appears on page 30 - 42 in the bundle.  Thank you sir.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: (sworn states)

MR COETZEE: Mr Van Zyl, you are the third applicant in this matter and you apply in terms of Section 18 of the National Unity and Reconciliation Act for gross human right violations, is that correct?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is so sir.

MR COETZEE: Is it also correct that you are 35 years of age and that you are an Electro Mechanic?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And you are married and you have a wife and two children, respectively 14 and 11 years of age?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: Mr Van Zyl, could you just briefly sketch for us for the record, your background, where did you grow up?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I grew up in a conservative house in Bronkhorstspruit.

MR COETZEE: Is it correct that after school you underwent National Service?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: Was that in the period 1981/1982?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: Where did you do your National Service?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I did my National Service in Kimberley where I started, then I went to Pretoria for an Officer's course, and I spent the last few months on the border.

MR COETZEE: The Namibian border?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: In which Section did you serve?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I was in 1 Maintenance Unit, Logistics.

MR COETZEE: Were any of your friends or acquaintances killed in the war?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: yes.

MR COETZEE: And during this border service and military training, did you have any discussions or were you elucidated regarding communism and the dangers involved in that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes sir.

MR COETZEE: Whom did you believe at that stage, to be the enemy?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: The communists such as the ANC, the Communist Party.

MR COETZEE: The SACP?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR COETZEE: Did you believe that they held a serious threat to your continued existence?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes sir.

MR COETZEE: In 1988 you started working in the Electrical Division of Secunda Mine as an Electro Technician after passing your apprenticeship?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct sir.

MR COETZEE: Do you have any previous convictions?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No sir.

MR COETZEE: And up to that stage, would you have described yourself as a useful citizen of the country?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes sir.

MR COETZEE: When did you join the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: In December 1993.

MR COETZEE: What was the reason for doing so?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: It was a right-wing military organisation which influenced the political scene and it served, it fitted in with my religious convictions, and it would protect my personal belongings as well.

MR COETZEE: Could you please tell us what the atmosphere was that reigned in Secunda during the period December 1993 to April 1994?  What were the feelings in Secunda?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Secunda was very strongly CP oriented.

MR COETZEE: How strong was the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging in the area?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: They were strong sir.

MR COETZEE: Were you also aware of an organisation by the name of the Boere Bevrydingsbeweging?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, I did.

MR COETZEE: How did they fit in with the right-wing Afrikaner politics, were they also part of it?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, they were part of right-wing politics.

MR COETZEE: In the course of your work, and in your circle of friends, did you discuss politics?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct Mr Chair.

MR COETZEE: Did you attend any meetings of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR COETZEE: Could you please tell us a bit more about it, how regularly, what was discussed at the meetings?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: We had a meeting every week in various houses of the various members.  At the beginning it was an open meeting after which there was a meeting only for members, where we discussed protecting our houses, families.

MR COETZEE: This protection of houses and families, who said that there was a danger that your houses and families could be attacked?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: We had received pamphlets in our post-boxes which warned us against the enemy, which would attack us and this was during the elections.

MR COETZEE: What was your planning to overcome this danger?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: We selected specific homes where we would be taking the women and the children and the men would protect these houses.

MR COETZEE: What weapons did you have at your disposal to protect the women and children?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: We only had hand held firearms and rifles.

MR COETZEE: Now, what was the weaponry that you believed the enemy to have?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Fully automatic firearms.

MR COETZEE: Mr Holder also testified yesterday that you and him participated with the BWB to protect a convoy of moving vehicles?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct Mr Chair.

MR COETZEE: Did you also participate in a night shooting exercise?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: How long before the 1994 elections were these exercises held?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Approximately two weeks before that.

MR COETZEE: And when did you meet Mr Ockert de Meillon, the first applicant?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Approximately the same time that we participated in these exercises.

MR COETZEE: With reference to time then, you mean about two weeks before the incident?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: Who introduced Mr De Meillon to you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Mr Van Schalkwyk who was my Commanding Officer at that stage.

MR COETZEE: This Mr Van Schalkwyk, did he have a rank in the AWB?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, he was a Commandant.

MR COETZEE: Could you perhaps tell us a bit more about the ranks and lines of command in the AWB?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well we had a Chief Commandant and then we had two Commandants under him.  Mr Van Schalkwyk was one of these.  We were members in his Unit, you could call it.

MR COETZEE: And was the AWB just a social organisation or did it operate along military lines?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, they did along military lines.

MR COETZEE: If somebody put a request to you, did you think you could fulfil it or not?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, I did have a choice.

MR COETZEE: If somebody with the rank of Commandant were to tell you to do something, how did you experience that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: As I have been taught in the Defence Force as well, he was of a higher rank than I was, and I was supposed to carry out his instructions.