Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with permission of the Committee, I have a photograph of the entrance which may assist the applicant in describing to the Committee exactly what position he was in when he fired the shot.  Could I have some assistance please.

CHAIRPERSON: It is photograph from the entrance is it?

MR PRIOR: A series of photographs, Mr Chairman, the first two - photograph 1 indicates the front of the premises from the street.  The second photograph on page 1 depicts the passage way.
	Just to avoid any confusion, the scour marks on the video, on the panel that we can't see, it is beyond the stairway on the right hand side, but I don't want to - the view of this photograph, photograph 2 was taken from the doorway of the Restaurant, can you see that Mr Gqomfa?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Please repeat the question.

MR PRIOR: Well, first of all do you recognise that area on the second photograph?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you standing inside the Restaurant or were you standing on the street side, that is on the pavement where we see on the photograph?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The top photograph - is that what you are referring to?

MR PRIOR: Well, let's deal with the first photograph.  That is the one where we see the entrance to the Heidelberg Bar and Restaurant.  Could you possibly maybe draw a point or mark the photograph where you were standing when you fired?

CHAIRPERSON: The witness has made a mark at the bottom of the door of which is facing the camera, the right door.  There are two doors, are there Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, it is a double door.

CHAIRPERSON: He has made a mark at the foot of the door at the right hand side of the door.

MR PRIOR: That is so, Mr Chairman, thank you.  My question then falls away regarding the second photograph.
	Mr Gqomfa, is it not correct that after the rifle grenade failed to explode, failed to cause the destruction that you intended to cause, that it was at that stage that either yourself or others with you, entered the Restaurant in order to give effect to your intention to kill as many people as you could?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I do not agree with you.

MR PRIOR: I want to suggest to you that given the position of the deceased, where they fell, where the cartridges were, the person or persons who shot and killed them in that Restaurant, could only too well have seen their victims, in other words they could have seen that they were not military personnel, that they were not all white people, but young students, young men and women of all races and certainly not an enemy as you have described your enemy.  Isn't that true?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, that is not true.  First of all as I have said before, it was not my job to go and check who it was that was a Security Force member.  I was just ordered to shoot.
	Secondly we were not looking at the race of the person or the colour of the person as an enemy, or the ages.  We just went there to shoot the people.  It was not a war of colour or race.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, what were the people that you wanted to shoot, why were they the enemy?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I am not the person who gathered the information.  I think you should refer the question to our Commander, I was just given an order to go and attack the Heidelberg Tavern.
	It was not my job or my part to go and check the nature of the people, I had to carry out the order, that is it.

ADV SANDI: Mr Gqomfa, if you had decided to call off the attack, what would have happened?  Let us suppose you had arrived there, you inspected the Bar or the Restaurant and saw who was there and then you call off the attack, what would have happened?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The question is not clear.  Are you talking about me or the victims?

CHAIRPERSON: The question really boils down to this, assuming you went there and you looked and you saw nobody in any uniform, police uniform, or army uniform or military uniform, nobody with weapons, and if you did not shoot them, what would have happened?  Not to the victims, they would have been alive, what would have happened to your command or to your group?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I would not know, I could not have anticipated that, but it should be clear that we have 15 points of attention with APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear, I am sorry.  The interpreter is not talking loudly, please.  Say it so that we can hear you.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all it was not my job to defy orders.  There are principles, 15 principles.  First of all we must obey orders.  That is expected of any APLA soldier.
	We take an oath and one of the conditions is that we should follow the orders and the commands from our Commanders, I could not defy the orders.  I do not know what would have happened, but it was expected of me to carry out the orders according to the oath I had taken.

ADV SANDI: I think I understand all that.  In these photographs you have indicated a position where you were standing, that is at the entrance part of the Restaurant.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Right at the time whilst you were standing there, before you opened fire, did you have an opportunity to change your mind and decide let us not carry out this operation?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR PRIOR: Why not, what was preventing you assessing the target or the situation when you arrived there?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I had to follow orders.  It was not my part to go and assess the people, I could not know which of the people were police or not.  I took it for granted that the person who commanded us, knew exactly what he was doing.

MR PRIOR: But who was that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I don't know, but it is the person that I mentioned earlier on, that gave me the order.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his name again?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The person who gave me the order?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is Sichumiso Nonxuba.

MR PRIOR: And not Letlapa Maphalela?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I said it is Sichumiso Nonxuba.

MR PRIOR: Can I refer you to your application, to the Bundle, page 13 of the Bundle, you said at paragraph 11 (b) the order was that we must attack these places we already attacked.  The date was 13 November 1993.  PAC approved of this, all logistic supplies were from the organisation.  The person who gave us the orders were Letlapa Raymond Maphalela, Bulelani Xuma and Sichumiso Nonxuba.  What were you referring to there?  Which places were you referring to there?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What places are you referring to, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Just refer to him again, where are you reading from?

MR PRIOR: It is his original application Mr Chairman, his own hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that his handwriting?

MR PRIOR: Yes, well I understand so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 11(b).

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What is the question?

MR PRIOR: When you say in response to the question state the particulars of order or approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of persons who gave such order or approval, you mentioned Letlapa Maphalela, Bulelani Xuma and Sichumiso Nonxuba as the three persons who gave you orders to carry out certain attacks in Cape Town.
	In those orders was the attack on Heidelberg, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Now I am asking you did Letlapa Maphalela as well as Bulelani Xuma and Sichumiso Nonxuba give you the order to attack the Heidelberg Tavern?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Bulelani Xuma and Letlapa was the director of the operation as I said in the morning.  Obviously as a director these things came from him, Letlapa.  Bulelani was also one of the higher Commanders in APLA, therefore I directly received the order from Sichumiso, he must have received it from the other people higher than him in the hierarchy, so to speak.