Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No my function was to maximally disrupt the enemy.  This did not only mean killing people.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you say that for a period of three years, you  the head of at least 150 people, didn't manage to kill a single enemy?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: We are now talking about part of the total structure of the whole South African Defence Force, that which goes about regions and inside the borders of South Africa, I can't think of anyone.

GEORGE BIZOS: You can't think of a single killing that was done under the auspices of the CCB of the enemy of the State?

MR WESSELS: May I ask Mr Bizos to make it clear whether he's referring to inside South Africa or inside and outside of South Africa?

GEORGE BIZOS: No let's take that step by step.  Inside South Africa.  How many people were killed by the CCB operatives inside South Africa?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There is no-one that I can think of at this moment inside South Africa.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well you know, I find it difficult to accept that answer, with respect, Mr Verster, either there were so many that you can't think of anyone, or that it was not of any importance to you whether the operatives that you were directing, killed people or not.  Is that correct?  Which of the two would you choose?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I wouldn't choose any one of the two.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now let me just see.  Generally the operation, if we understand it correctly, was that there were lists of people to be either eliminated or blackmailed or compromised or their property was to be damaged.  There were lists were there not?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There were enemy lists, but it was not aimed specifically on the CCB Chairperson.  What I said earlier is that it is about the total Defence Force Structure and even outside the Defence Force, the Police and National Intelligence.  The CCB was not responsible for everything that happened inside the country.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I'm not talking about everything.  I am asking you whether there were lists in which people that were to be killed were identified and were they brought to you by your Managers from the various districts?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, we did not only have lists just for ourselves.  I'll say again, we were part of the information structure of the whole of South Africa and that was a national structure in which people were available and this was the only thing that we had to our avail.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think what Mr Bizos was asking you and I've heard what you've said, was did any of the Managers, that is the Managers of the various regions, bring to you lists of people who they felt should be monitored or dealt with, let's use that term?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, Mr Chairperson, we did receive information from the ground level and then we compared it, as I had said earlier.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were the people whose names appeared on that list, identified by any of your Managers or any of the operatives in order to be killed?

MR WESSELS: Again, is it inside or outside of South Africa?

CHAIRPERSON: Inside South Africa I think.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson there were on those lists enemies identified and I will say again, I measured it in comparison to our goal and it would not say that person x would have to be shot dead.  It would for instance be said that this person is a threat to the sovereignty of the State and this person has to be disrupted and then plans would be made by the people on the ground and those plans would then be presented to me.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question put by Mr Bizos was, was there any, once a person was identified, was there ever any instruction or authority issued to have him killed as opposed to being monitored or whatever, to have him killed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson I was under the impression that you were saying that, were there people on lists presented to me that had to be killed, that they said would have to be killed and what I am saying is that lists were given to me, I can't say specifically.  It could have been that some of the people, one of the regions could have said that this person is a threat or this person is busy infiltrating bombs into the country, so it could have been the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: Clarity, did any of the applicants here other than Gen Webb who was your senior, did any of the applicants ever make any suggestion to you that any persons on those lists should be killed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson in the case of region 6, more came from ground level to me so it could be the case and I cannot now think of a specific person or personality, but they did come with suggestions from ground level.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now let's take them one by one.  Applicant number one, Mr Botha, did he make any suggestions to you that any particular person should be killed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It is too long ago, Mr Chairperson, I do not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well you know we're not dealing with what happened at a tea party, Mr Verster, we are dealing with suggestions to commit murder or incitement to commit murder, or conspiracy to commit murder.  Please try and be of some help.  Did Mr Botha suggest to you that any person should be killed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know Mr Chairperson, there were 10 or 12 regions and it could have come from many regions to m and I can't remember if he specifically said.

MR LAX: We're only talking about one region at this point in time.

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about Region 6.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I've given a specific name.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and with regard - I think we can even - to Region 6.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well yes, I intend going through each one of the applicants in the hope of getting an answer.  Did Mr Botha ever suggest to you that anybody should be killed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: In our working relationship, I do not know Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember any specific name or incident and I will say again it is because there had been many other regions and for that reason I cannot link one incident to one person.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm going to ask you to please volunteer anything that you remember Mr Botha suggesting to you.  Volunteer.  Tell us.  For how long was Mr Botha under your command?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson Mr Botha was under Mr Staal Burger's command.  I never gave him orders directly, he specifically worked through a specific channel and I cannot answer this question any better than I've already answered it, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you had to approve every suggestion that was made before any action should be taken.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson, but in many instances I only spoke to the Regional Manager and sometimes the Regional Manager listened to people and in certain incidents we came together in a group, or the person who suggested it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please tell us one instance of a specific proposal that may have been made by Mr Botha either through Mr Burger or directly to you.  One instance where such a proposal was made by Mr Botha.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not have a specific incident.  I do know in the case of Evans Mr Botha could have been involved, but I cannot specify that at this point, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: So you say Mr Botha may have been involved in Mr Evans' - what was his proposal, do you remember?

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, if the witness says he can't remember, he may have been involved, then how can Mr Bizos say:  "What was his proposal?"  as if it is in the positive.

GEORGE BIZOS: Try and put your mind back, whether he did make any proposal and what the nature of the proposal was.