Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

BONGA KHUMALO: All the Commanders that I am talking about here, were trained personnel of MK, they had an understanding.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying all these four Commanders were former MK operatives?

BONGA KHUMALO: Only two were not.

MS THABETE: Was Mabuza Mhlongo one of them who was an ex-MK?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

MS THABETE: Who were the said Commanders accountable to?

BONGA KHUMALO: All four Commanders would form a Unit in Sebokeng and I was the Commander of that Unit, so that they were accountable directly to myself.

MS THABETE: What do you understand by that, by the fact that they were accountable to you, what does that mean?  Maybe let me guide you.
	If I am accountable to you, before I make a decision, I will come and discuss it with you.  If I am accountable to you, I cannot just make a decision independently of you, because I am accountable to you.

MR LAX: Ms Thabete, your understanding of what accountability means, is totally irrelevant to this hearing.  How did he understand the notion of accountability, that is what is much more important for us.
	Mr Khumalo, do you understand what we are asking you?  These people were accountable to you, you were their Commander.  How did they account to you, how did you understand the idea of them being accountable to you, what was required of them in other words in order to make them accountable to you?
	Do you understand the question?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, I understand the question.

MR LAX: Please try and answer it.

BONGA KHUMALO: I would like to apologise for this, my understanding was that this accountability meant that they had to know from whom they would get instructions and who they had to report back to so that what was happening in their accounting, it was such that whenever there was a target that had been identified, we had to sit down and strategise as to whether the mission needed a joint venture, we could operate as a solo operation or one person could handle it or not.  Basically that is how we operated.
	We used to have meetings overnight.

MS THABETE: Bearing in mind what you have said Mr Khumalo, what if the said Commanders are not accountable to you, what steps would you take to try and correct that unaccountability?

BONGA KHUMALO: Fortunately ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer, I don't understand Ms Thabete's question.  Do you want to say if the Commanders acted out of authority, what would be his reaction to that situation?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETE: That is the question.

BONGA KHUMALO: I have forgotten the question.

CHAIRPERSON: If one of your four Commanders acted without authority, what reaction if any, did you take?  What measures did you take in a situation where a person either acted without authority or exceeded the bounds of his authority?

BONGA KHUMALO: The house will remember that I did point out earlier on that we had an underground structure of Umkhonto weSizwe apart from the SDU's, and that was not accountable to the Youth League of the ANC, but directly to the MK.
	If somebody defied, we had to report that to the underground structure.

CHAIRPERSON: This is not an act of defiance, this is either a person who has acted without authority or exceeded the bounds of his authority?

MR LAX: Do you understand the question?

BONGA KHUMALO: I think I understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any rules in place for such a situation?

BONGA KHUMALO: I think I explained.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't prefix your response by saying you think you have already explained.  Questions would not be put to you if your explanation was well understood.  Just give your response without having to start by saying you think you have already explained.

BONGA KHUMALO: I would like to apologise.   When a Commander of a certain Unit or if a Commander of a certain Unit, oversteps the bounds, I like the question that was posed earlier on as to whether we gained financially or not.
	If a member of a Unit had overstepped bounds by receiving money from certain people, such a person would be violating our policy, because we did not receive monetary gifts from the community, such a person therefore, or even a person who goes out and conducts a robbery, that would be a defiance of the existing orders, standing orders of the SDU's.  Such a person had to be dealt with, that is what I was trying to explain, please bear with me.

CHAIRPERSON: How was it dealt with, that is the response we are more interested in, not that you dealt with him.  How was such a person dealt with?

BONGA KHUMALO: I think that I should refer to a specific incident as to what we did to who.  I don't know whether you are leading to that.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want you to be specific, I merely want your general response.  In the event of anyone exceeding his bounds of authority, what action if any, did you take?

BONGA KHUMALO: In my case, I did not experience such a problem with my Commanders, except one of them, who did that and we dealt with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you did not have any rules of conduct that would have addressed a situation like this, in the event of it occurring?  It is that simple, if you had rules of conduct to address the situation such as the one posed by Ms Thabete, you would have known about how you would have dealt with the situation.
	Did you or did you not have rules?  There is nothing wrong in not having rules.

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, we did have rules.

CHAIRPERSON: What did they provide for a situation like this?  If you've got rules, you are the General Commander, these persons were accountable to you, you must have told them that in the event of your transgression in respect of the following acts, this will be the measure that we will have to take against you, if you have rules.

BONGA KHUMALO: Even now afraid to say I think, for example people were not supposed to accept monetary gifts from whoever.  Like in a case that implicates certain girls ...

CHAIRPERSON: You still are not responding to my question Mr Khumalo.  You have already testified to that effect and I have said your testimony was not relevant.  What we wanted to know is not what would a person do that would amount to a transgression, we wanted to find out what action you would take in the event of the person overstepping his or her mark.

BONGA KHUMALO: Shortly Madam Chair, I did not experience such a thing in my Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that, you have already also told us that, but you are saying there were rules, what did your rules provide in the event of a person overstepping his or her mark?

BONGA KHUMALO: We did not have rules to say if a person has committed crime A or B, this is what we would do.  If I happened to have a problem that would lead to that, I would have to consult with the comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so your earlier testimony was incorrect because it suggested that you had rules?  That is what you testified, you said there were rules to cater for such situations, so it was an error?

BONGA KHUMALO: I don't see it as a mistake.  As I say that, yes, we did have rules.  There are ten commandments, don't kill, don't do this, etc, as it is in the Bible.  People were not supposed to fall in love with a person who was perceived as this or that.

CHAIRPERSON: But the ten commandments also specify that if you kill, you won't go to heaven, you go to hell.  This is what I am trying to get from you.  In your case, what did your commandments state?  What kind of heaven or hell did you have to go to in the event of transgression?

BONGA KHUMALO: In our case, we did not have a solution as to how many years a person would be sentenced, but such a person would have to be dealt with.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabete, I doubt if there is any point in belabouring this point.