Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: As it was at the border - if we left corpses behind, you could not take the corpses with you and you had to cut off one of the ears and show it to the Commanding Officer to say that in that direction there are so many corpses and these are the ears that I cut off.  It was general action in border duty.  I was not part of this, I had never done it before.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand how that can show that anybody had been killed.  If you are telling us that you were to bring the heart I would understand but a piece of an ear?  Don't you know that a famous boxer bit off the ear of another one and that person is still very much alive?  It can't be proved that somebody has been killed?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I cannot answer for these other people, I go on hearsay, I know for a fact what we did there that night was to take the ear and we did not receive instruction to cut off any other parts of the body except for the ear.

CHAIRPERSON: I just have problems in understanding the motivation that is to say that it's some kind of proof that somebody has been killed, but anyway.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kloppers, if I refer back to the drinking story, the testimony was there that you drank most or more than the other people who was there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I would think that I drank more than the other persons there.

ADV BOSMAN: Yet you say the whole group are hard drinkers and alcohol does not effect you, more or less, do you agree?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I agree.

ADV BOSMAN: You can take your drink?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes we can take our drink.

ADV BOSMAN: And at this opportunity you received the instruction, according to Mr Dreyer, was of military precision.  You questioned the group and you say that you were satisfied all of them individually said that or after you prodded them or by their own admission that they were members of the ANC and then you decided this is the target, continued on the signal of Mr Martin and then you shoot the persons, there are nine people in all.  Only two of them died immediately, one a little later and another one a few days later in hospital, a few of them escaped without any injury.  Explain to me if you were satisfied all these people are adults, they are all part of the enemy, the ANC SACP Alliance, but you shoot in such a manner that you just killed of them or three at the scene?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I think that is why General Oelofse was so dissatisfied with the situation that we did not kill everyone.  That's why he was dissatisfied with me.

ADV BOSMAN: No, that was not my question, my question is - explain to me why I cannot understand you did not kill everyone there and then on your version General Oelofse could not understand it.  Explain to me, you are standing there, you are nine grown up men, eight of you are armed, you shoot at people sitting down but just killed two immediately and three of them die at the scene.  I don't want you to implicate Oelofse again in this, just explain to me how does this happen?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: This happened when the planning was not carried out as I expected it.  Mr Meiring was behind the chevron boards, he would have been able to tell me who was standing there with him but everybody there did not shoot there.  Of the eight who was there three of them did not shoot.  I know for a fact that I did shoot, I fired six shots and I shot to kill.  It was dark I don't know how many people I killed but according to the ballistic tests they could not prove anything although they found a person with bullet in his head but I cannot tell you how the other persons shot there.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm trying to understand, if this was a planned operation, you say now you're going to ask these persons, you make sure that this is the enemy, the target is identified, you will eliminate it.  You make sure and you tell us you are one hundred percent sure that all of them said that they were ANC members - they are all sitting there.  Now you go out and you are going to execute them, that's part of the plan but in the execution six of the nine - but in the execution at the scene just three of them die?  I ask you this because your original testimony in court - is that not more acceptable that all of a sudden somebody started firing and everybody got frightened?  Wasn't that the more probable explanation for why so many people died there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is how you see it.  My instruction to the men was to kill.  I believed all of them were dead that is why I received a flashlight from Mr Diedericks and they all appeared dead to me that is why I was surprised to find out that not all of them were killed or everybody did not fire I cannot say but I did fire.

ADV BOSMAN: But if you were an outsider as the panel is here, what would you have thought?  What version is more probable, the one in court or the one that you are giving here today?  I trying to tell you that how do we formulate our own decisions according to your word or according to the circumstances?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I think you need to base it on the circumstances then and why I'm prepared to tell the truth here today.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kloppers a second issue, I only have three issues but the second one is the one to one discussion with General Oelofse.  He didn't say much because he trusted you he said it was the real McCoy, he earlier said it was a revolution.  Earlier he actually mentioned the real McCoy but later in the one on one discussion - or did he say that in the general meeting.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I have to think clearly if he mentioned it in the meeting but I'm sure he did mention it in the meeting that from now on yes, I can say with conviction that in the meeting itself he said that from now on the revolution would start.

ADV BOSMAN: And this was the general order because he trusted you?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes he trusted me completely but he asked me if I had all my equipment like the reflective jacket and the equipment for the roadblock and I answered in the affirmative and he gave me the order to set up the roadblock.

ADV BOSMAN: He didn't say anything else to you, he simply told you to establish a roadblock, that he wanted to see corpses which you had mentioned earlier, hard options which you had mentioned earlier during the Order group meeting and you said to him that you would establish the roadblock at Radora Crossing?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's not all that he said, he said that our target group was the ANC SACP Alliance.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he say anything else?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: He said that he wanted to see corpses.

ADV BOSMAN: No something which we have not discussed yet.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No.

ADV BOSMAN: But you said you spent ten minutes with him?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I can't really go according to time because this was four and a half years ago but I would say that it was approximately ten minutes.

ADV BOSMAN: Well did it take ten minutes for him to tell you this?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Among others I asked him what about the other areas, what would be happening there, what sort of work would they be doing but he was not prepared to discuss this with me.

ADV BOSMAN: He didn't trust you that far?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No.

ADV BOSMAN: You've also said if I heard correctly that two of the others were there before you, two of the other area leaders?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Before you went in?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And then there were others who saw him after the time, they also went in individually?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Were they also there for approximately ten minutes, did they leave quickly, did you know?