Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

MR NGUBANE: Against what?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: From the IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Can you once again come and tell us why in your opinion, did you seek assistance from the police to protect you?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: It should be remembered that at the time the police were associated with the previous government of apartheid, and were assisting Inkatha.

MR NGUBANE: They were assisting Inkatha even in 1990 when you formed the SDU's?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, they were assisting Inkatha.

MR NGUBANE: And according to your evidence, all that you were doing,you were advancing the aims and objectives of the African National Congress?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: You have been advised that the Minister, Jeff Radebe, has submitted a supporting memorandum to the members of the Committee, that will be from page 9, is that correct?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And do you agree with his submissions which he made in that report?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And are you aware that he also has applied for amnesty?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.  I learnt from the media whilst I was in prison.

MR NGUBANE: The members of the Committee has his application before them.  I will read to you what is contained in that application, the relevant portions.  That will be page 4, paragraph 10(a), first line and paragraph (b).
	He says that all the operations detailed above, were carried out in accordance with the aims and objectives of the African National Congress.  He goes on at paragraph (b) and he says the operations detailed in these applications were politically motivated, carried out within the context of the liberation struggle, aimed at our political opponent and committed at all times, with the approval of and within the policy guidelines of the African National Congress.
	That statement, does it apply to the incident in respect of which you are making this application?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now, let's now turn to the incident itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ngubane, before you do that, which SDU did you join Mr Msani?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Self Defence Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, where, which one?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The one that used to protect the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but which area?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: At Macubeni, near Umkomaas.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just give an indication to us, the size of that unit.

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The youth was targeted, people who had courage and who were brave and people who would not divulge any information to the police, if they were caught.

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately how many members did you have in your unit?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: About 20, if I am not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you issued with firearms or any other weapons?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The guns were not issued by Jeff Radebe, but the community used to pay out certain monies for us to be able to acquire guns and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Following what the Chairman has asked you, did you have a person who was directly in command of your Self Defence Unit?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Who was he?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Bukela Luthuli.

MR NGUBANE: Was he holding the position of a Chairperson, or was the Chairperson a different person?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He was our Commander.

MR NGUBANE: So the Chairperson of the ANC in your area, was a separate person from your Commander?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now, let's come to the incident where Sixtus Fana Mkhize was killed.  Is it correct firstly that you are presently serving a 20 year sentence at Westville in connection with this incident?
	Oh, okay, a problem with the Zulu again.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we have again got a technical problem with the Zulu getting through to the applicant, or not getting through.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, is it correct that you are presently serving a sentence of 20 years at Westville?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were you convicted by the Supreme Court, the then Supreme Court of South Africa, in 1990?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you recall what date it was when you were convicted?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: 7th of August 1992.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  And in that case, is it correct that you pleaded not guilty?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you entered the witness box and gave evidence in that case?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And that evidence was at odds with what you are telling the members of the Committee now, is that correct?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you explain to the Committee the reason why, oh, firstly before I come to that, the evidence that you gave in the Supreme Court, was that the correct version of the incident?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Some of the evidence was true, some was not because we regarded the Supreme Court as an institution of the old order, apartheid.

MR NGUBANE: Now, what you are going to tell us about this incident today, is that the truth, the whole truth?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just explain that last answer, Mr Msani.  You said that some of the evidence you gave, was true and some was not because you regarded the Court as an institution of the old order.
	The Court was an institution of the old order, but that doesn't explain why you partially told the truth and partially told an untruth.  If you had no respect at all for that institution, why give evidence at all?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: We pleaded not guilty at the Supreme Court for the reason that because we did not regard the Supreme Court as a lawful Court.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that you lied because you wanted to be released and you didn't care whether you lied or not as long as you were released, that was fine?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: That is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, and Sixtus Fana Mkhize, the deceased in that case, did you know him?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did you know him since the days of 1985 when you joined the UDF?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: According to your knowledge, to what political organisation did he belong?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: IFP member.

MR NGUBANE: Was he also a businessman?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Was he a passive member of the IFP or was he a very active member?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He was the facilitator, organiser of the IFP at Macubeni.

MR NGUBANE: When the attacks directed at the UDF took place, did he participate in any way?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Can you explain to the Committee how he participated?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: In that area, Mkhize would come accompanied by the ZP's and IFP members.  They would be travelling in his car, a HiLux and they would come to attack us and they will shoot at people.

MR NGUBANE: Were people the only victims of that attack or was there any attacks directed to property?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: People were attacked, and houses were burnt down.

MR NGUBANE: Did that situation continue until 1990?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Before 1990, did you try to stop Mkhize from doing all these activities?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, we would try to stop him.  When he came to the area, we used to exchange fire, we used to shoot at each other.

MR NGUBANE: Did he also shoot at you, or it was only the police that were shooting at you in his presence?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Mr Mkhize as well as the police were shooting at us.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that because of the situation, there was a very deep seated hostility between you as the members of the SDU and Mr Mkhize as the Inkatha member?