Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

MR DE KLERK: I thought of one thing Mr Chairman, the witness is busy with the story and it is a quite intricate following of what happened there and I would wish it to be possible that he could just finish with his ...(inaudible)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, may I make this further request that the linguist must try to reduce the speed, we cannot cope.  If my learned friend can just take control of him please.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you.  If you could just pause each now and then to try and give us chance to try understand what you are saying.  Go ahead.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: We went to Mtusi's place, we got some ammunition and we went below to a place called Selasa.  When we arrived at Selasa there was one family with the light one - I didn't know to whom the family belonged, we entered the family in groups.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you explain to us as to what kinds of ammunition you got from Mtusi?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: As we were using the homemade guns and big guns, we got ammunition for 9mm and R1 ammunitions and R4 rifles ammunition.  We had different types of homemade guns.  One of the guns that we had was an AK47.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You can continue slowly.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: We went towards Lastla -  I knew a bit of the place, that's where we shot one old man.  I was just watching at the time, I didn't wish to be involved in attacking those people at that time, I don't know why it happened.  However, they shot that person and we, after that we left the place.  On our way we met two people and Gumbi shot them.  He shot at them because he thought they were coming to find out as to what's happening hearing the gunshots.  I don't know whether he killed them or not.
	We continued to a place called Matafeni.   When we arrived at Matafeni we entered at the first homestead, it was a new homestead.  We asked the mother in the house and she told us that she's coming from a particular place and we discovered that it was only the woman and there was nobody in the house, so we left to pass that family an we continued.
	I was insisting to them that they shouldn't kill women on our way because I intended that we should fight the ANC's young comrades.  However, most of the people with us they said, we have to kill all of them because we also lost our mothers in the war so whoever we find on the way, even the children, we have to kill them.
	I realised that there was nothing that I was going to do because if I continued to disagree with them, they were turn against me and kill me so I kept quiet and kept on watching all the incidents, whatever, all the things they were doing.  That's all I have to say.
No sound.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DE KLERK: 2 o'clock Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DE KLERK: Mr Zuma, is there anything that you want to say to the victims and the families of the victims of that attack?  Maybe I'll repeat it, is there anything that you want to say to the victims and the families of the victims of the attack?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, I would like to say something.

MR DE KLERK: Go ahead please.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I would like to ask for forgiveness to those who lost their family relatives, especially to those whose children had been injured, those who's female relatives who were injured and also those who's male relatives were injured and I would like to ask them to forgive me, that's all.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR RATHMAN: Thank you Sir.  On this day when this incident took place, had a peace meeting between the IFP and ANC been arranged?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't remember and I never heard about such things.

MR RATHMAN: So is this the first time that you've heard about that?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: Yes, it was the first time after I was arrested.

MR RATHMAN: To mount this attack, did you use any vehicles at all?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: No, we didn't use cars.

MR RATHMAN: Did you see any vehicles while the attack was in progress?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I personally didn't see any car.  We had to pass streets but I didn't see any car.

MR RATHMAN: Do you know that in the course of the attack, various items of furniture were stolen, stoves and big chairs and things like that?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't know anything and I didn't notice such things.

MR RATHMAN: You didn't notice anybody carrying such large items of
furniture or equipment at all?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: No, I didn't see any person.

MR RATHMAN: When you launched the attack, did you try to disguise your appearance in any way by wearing balaclavas or any other type of disguise?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: We had hats but not hats that covered our faces because we wanted them to see us when they happened to see us.

MR RATHMAN: We've heard in Mr Gumbi's evidence that the attack on your area was mounted at about 3 o'clock or half past 3 and the whistles blew and you had a meeting and then you yourselves went on the attack somewhat later, 5.30/6 o'clock.  Do you know, do you personally know if any attempt was made to contact IFP leaders at all?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I don't understand this question as to where it's leading to - the involvement of IFP leaders, I don't understand that.

MR RATHMAN: Well at the meeting which you had after your area had been attacked, they whistles has blown and you all met at a place, were there any of the local IFP leaders present there?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: They were not there, it was only the youth and some elders.

MR RATHMAN: The elders, who were the elders who were there?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: I mean those who were older than us who were involved in the fight.

MR RATHMAN: Did you make, did you or anybody else that you know of make any attempt to contact Paulas Vezi or your chief or anybody like that?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: We didn't contact anybody.  The chief stayed at a far place and the headman was also a bit far so we couldn't contact them, we just took a decision after we were attacked that we have to attack back because we couldn't sleep as they were attacking us.

MR RATHMAN: You say that the chief stayed at the far place, is that chief Majosi?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's chief Dlamini who was staying at Pateni and chief Majosi at Ndaleni.

MR RATHMAN: How far is your area from Pateni?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: From where?  Can you repeat the question?

MR RATHMAN: Koweni where you lived to Pateni?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: It's a short distance but I can't estimate the exact distance, its a short distance but you have to walk to reach the place.

MR RATHMAN: But chief Dlamini was there, why didn't you contact him?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: We were confused.  Since they were attacking us we knew that we're going to sleep therefore we decided to fight back and hit back while everything was still hot.

MR RATHMAN: And others  - Mr Vezi also live at Pateni?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: That's correct.

MR RATHMAN: Don't you think you should have contacted him as well?

ROBERT V O ZUMA: We couldn't contact Vezi because he was far away.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said a moment ago that it was a short distance from where you lived to Pateni.

ROBERT V O ZUMA: They way I'm explaining I'll say, if you have to leave Koweni to Pateni you have to walk a long distance however, myself I'm a bit far away from Koweni itself so it would take a long time for me to leave Koweni to Pateni because people we're going - we're going to come back and attack the people if we have to first go to Pateni so we have to stay at home and protect families and the properties therefore I would say it's far away to go to Pateni.

MR RATHMAN: If your IFP leaders were at Pateni surely you should have asked, sent somebody to get help from them to deal in this, with this crisis you had?