Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MR SMUTS: Had nothing occurred in Port St Johns to your knowledge, between the first time that there was a report from the ANC structures at Port St Johns, dealing with the so-called problem and the 13th of April?  Had nothing occurred in Port St Johns to move you to launch this attack?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I wouldn't be sure, I don't remember clearly whether there was something that happened or not.  But for now, I am not sure, I can't say there is something that happened.
	What I am sure about is that the comrades in Port St Johns had a problem.  The death of Chris Hani made us to go and attack and try to solve the problem in Port St Johns.

ADV DE JAGER: I am not so familiar with the area here.  How far was this bungalow where the Weakley's were staying from Port St Johns, could perhaps some of the legal advisors help me please?

MR ZILWA: I could help.  During the trial, we did go for an inspection in loco.   It is not very far, but it is a bit of a distance on the outskirts of Port St Johns, but it is not that far.
	Maybe, you branch off on the tar road to Port St Johns, you take a dirt road.  It would be for about 20 kms, I would say.  When you branch off to take that dirt road, that is from the main tar road, I think it would be about if I am not mistaken, about 10, 15 kms to the town of Port St Johns, before actually reaching the town of Port St Johns, proceeding from Umtata, then you take that dirt road.  As I say, I am not sure, it could be about 20 kms down the dirt road.

ADV DE JAGER: So in total it is round about 30, 35 kms from Port St Johns?  Mr Smuts, you clients, couldn't they perhaps assist?

MR SMUTS: I would have to take instructions Mr Chair.  It is suggested to me that it could be some 40 kms from Port St Johns to the site.
	Mr Mazwi, in any event, you then joined in the decision to go and attack the enemy which was to be identified at Port St Johns, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct sir.

MR SMUTS: And you armed yourself to participate in such an attack?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: At the time that you as Self Defence Unit members decided to launch such an attack, you had no instructions or approval from any formation of the African National Congress to participate in such an attack?  Is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct, we did not get any approval or instruction.

MR SMUTS: In fact Mr Maxhayi's evidence was that the purpose of Self Defence Units was defense, not attack, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: So, the decision to launch this attack, was made outside of formal ANC structures, and am I - well, will you confirm that first?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The SDU's had not to wait for an instruction if they had to defend.  I did not take this incident as an attack, I took it as a defense.

MR SMUTS: Are you serious?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: The decision however, was not taken by an SDU, it was taken by isolated members, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Correct.

MR SMUTS: When you arrived at Port St Johns, having armed yourself to participate in this act of defence as you style it, what did you do there to identify the enemy against whom you were coming to defend yourself?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Can you please repeat your question sir?

MR SMUTS: When you arrived at Port St Johns, what effort did you make to identify the enemy against whom you had come to defend yourself?

MR ZILWA: Sorry Mr chairman, he is having a problem with the word identify, he is asking me about it.  Maybe the Interpreter can explain the word to him.

LUNGILE MAZWI: At that time, at that moment, we were sure that when a white person appeared, we would take that person as an enemy, because of that place and under those situations at that time, we were forced to take the white person as an enemy.
	Indeed a car came, and we identified the enemy and then the enemy was attacked by the comrades.

MR SMUTS: That is a bit ...(indistinct) Mr Mazwi, you didn't know when you set off from Flagstaff whom it was that you were going to attack, other than that it was going to be the enemy at Port St Johns, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I was not aware, I did not know the names.

MR SMUTS: You have confirmed Mr Maxhayi's evidence which was that a number of white people were passed on the way and they were not attacked, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: There were a lot of white people, we didn't attack any one of them on our way.

MR SMUTS: Why was that?

LUNGILE MAZWI: We were aiming at Port St Johns, we were going to Port St Johns, we did not aim to attack people on the way.

MR SMUTS: You did not proceed to attack the first white people you saw in Port St Johns, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: We didn't attack any white person we came across in Port St Johns.

MR SMUTS: Why not?

LUNGILE MAZWI: We for example, we saw white people in town, but we did not attack them.  We saw white people on the way to Umtata, and we didn't attack them.

MR SMUTS: So who was it that you had gone to attack in Port St Johns?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The place we were going to in Gomolo, it is a coast where we found out that it is used by the enemy.  When we arrived there, I was forced that if I see an enemy, if I had a chance, I would attack.

MR SMUTS: Is it your evidence Mr Mazwi, that from the time that you left Flagstaff, you - on route to the Gomolo coast to go and attack the enemy?

LUNGILE MAZWI: When we moved from Flagstaff, I was not aware that we were going to attack Gomolo coast.  I knew that we were going to attack Port St Johns.

MR SMUTS: Why did you not attack in Port St Johns?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The comrades told us that we would be in trouble, because of the police and the soldiers, and we were also thinking about the safety of the people in town.

ADV DE JAGER: But weren't the people who caused the trouble, who had blown their hooters, who disturbed the meeting, weren't they in Port St Johns?

LUNGILE MAZWI: They were staying in Port St Johns, but they were using the coast outside Port St Johns, according to what I heard.

ADV DE JAGER: So they are staying in Port St Johns, they caused the trouble in Port St Johns, but now you hear they are using the coast?  So you proceed and you attack people who are not staying in Port St Johns, who are staying in a bungalow?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Maybe you don't understand me clearly sir.  We arrived in Port St Johns, and we found out that some of these people are staying in Port St Johns, but the coast they are using are outside Port St Johns, they are not in town or closer to town, as for example Gomolo, we heard that Gomolo coast was used by the enemy.
	We were forced to go outside Port St Johns because there were soldiers and police and we also thought about the safety of the people in Port St Johns.

MR SMUTS: Was this a holiday season Mr Mazwi?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes sir.

MR SMUTS: Was it evident that there were holiday makers both on the way to Port St Johns, and at Port St Johns?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I wouldn't be so sure, but we met some of them on the way, they were coming from Port St Johns.
	I wouldn't be sure that they were there, how many were they.

MR SMUTS: But you wouldn't have been surprised to find holiday makers in the area around and in Port St Johns, because it was a holiday time, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is correct sir.  I wouldn't be surprised.

MR SMUTS: And that would also have meant that some of the people in Port St Johns who were on holiday, would not have been part of the so-called enemy who had disrupted the meeting the previous year, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I wouldn't be sure about that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know the people whom you eventually attacked, were not holiday makers?

LUNGILE MAZWI: A lot of holiday makers, as I have already said, we met them on the way.  They were going back to their places.  That is why I saw that the people that were there, were the enemy.