Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, please repeat the question.

MR FOURIE: I'd like to know from you - were the vehicles that you used in previous attacks like in Boipatong, Heilbron and other places and more specifically here in the Western Cape, did you obtain the vehicles that you used in other attacks in the same manner as you obtained the vehicle to use in the Heidelberg attack?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's go through one by one - in the Boipatong matter, was there a vehicle used?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In Heilbron, was a motorcar used?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Free State?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I have counted only two places.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, that's Heilbron.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Nyanga East, was there a vehicle used?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What vehicle was that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: It was a Toyota Conquest.

CHAIRPERSON: You may put your question about ...[intervention]

MR FOURIE: Whose Toyota Conquest did you use?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: It belonged to a firm "Operation Hunger".

MR FOURIE: Did you steal the vehicle in order to do that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, it was stolen.

MR FOURIE: Thank you.  And in the other attack in Lingelethu, did you also use a vehicle?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: The same ...

MR FOURIE: Did you use the same vehicle?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker wait for the interpretation?

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it, the interpreter hasn't finished yet - Lingelethu was the same vehicle?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR FOURIE: Thank you.  Referring to your request for amnesty - sorry, I must just go back one, in paragraph 7 in your affidavit you say
"At the time I did not think it wise to do so"
Do you recall writing that or stating that?  It refers to why you did not throw the hand grenade.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Please repeat the question.

MR FOURIE: I'm jogging his memory Mr Chairman, because he stated in paragraph 7
"At the time I did not think it wise to throw the hand grenade because it would almost certainly have killed my comrades as they were retreating from the attack on the tavern?
Do you remember saying that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, I remember that.

MR FOURIE: I have a problem with this as with many other of the statements that you've made.  Could it be that you didn't throw the hand grenade because you were afraid for your own safety?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: What do you meant I was afraid for my own safety?  I was meant to launch the hand grenade inside, not outside the tavern - Madasi was ahead of me inside, this is why I did not launch the hand grenade.

MR FOURIE: I understand what you're saying to me, then what you also are saying to me that you were afraid that you would injure or kill some of your comrades inside the tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Madasi was inside, I could not launch the hand grenade.

MR FOURIE: Okay, how far inside?  Do you remember?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, I don't remember.

MR FOURIE: This is now something which I might disturb Mr Chairman, but I'm going to ask it anyway.
	Alternatively, did you perhaps see that the people in the tavern were not the people that you say you should have expected to see in the tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, the order was such that we should go to the tavern.

MR FOURIE: I hear what you're saying but I'm also wondering if  your reluctance to throw the hand grenade is because - possibly because you might have seen that the people inside the tavern were not the kind of people that were described to you by those you say sent you.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I wouldn't put it that way Sir, I was going to launch the hand grenade if Madasi had not taken the position that he took - I was going to launch the hand grenade.

MR FOURIE: Thank you.  I'm going to go back again to your request for amnesty - how can you say that you obeyed orders which were to shoot and kill people which you say you did and then in the same paragraph refer to being told that you should kill Whites, but you ended up killing people who are not regarded as White?  Could this be regarded as a botched or messed up operation?   I'm asking, do you think it could be regarded as a botched or messed up operation?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, I cannot comment on that, we were told to go to the tavern - I don't know how to respond to your statement.

MR FOURIE: I have one or two others.  I refer to the statement read by Mr Prior as written by a Mr Xuma and I must say in my mind it gave me rise - it gave rise to conflict because I wonder why you appeared a little upset and agitated when Mr Prior asked you questions about Mr Xuma - when you saw him or when you didn't see him.  I'm just giving you a little bit of space to perhaps clarify your position because it worries me greatly, I'm not clear in my mind why this caused you such consternation.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: First of all, Nonuba was the one who led to our coming here ...[intervention]

MR FOURIE: I'm just giving you some space okay, because I'm not certain in my mind right now.  I'll tell you why I'm worried if I can help you, should I help you?

CHAIRPERSON: What's the point of your question, I think ...[intervention]

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairman, regarding Mr Mabala's not remembering whether he saw Mr Xuma in the then Transkei or not, I have a problem because - I'll read my statement and then I'll leave it to him to answer if he wishes to.
	You keep telling us that you are or you were a soldier trained to carry out orders and that you were told to do certain things including killing people, you claimed to have been involved in various operations and you remember the details of them.  My question now is why can you not now remember a simple detail yet a very important one regarding remember when you saw Mr Xuma and where and under what circumstances?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, I said Mr Xuma is a member of the High Command, however it is comrade Nonuba who sent us to Cape Town - Nonuba takes order from comrade Xuma.

MR FOURIE: Okay, why then when you were asked about him and specifically whether he was Director of Operations or not - tell me if I'm right here or if I've misunderstood something, but you did not - you seemed not to want to answer that question whether he was Director of Operations or not, can you tell me why please?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Who was the Director of Operations?  Repeat the question please.

MR FOURIE: I'd like to ask again, did I misunderstand something or did I miss something when I perceived you as not wanting to answer the question whether or not Mr Xuma was Director of Operations?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Mr Xuma is the leader, the member of the High Command - Nonuba received orders from Mr Xuma.

MR FOURIE: And now I'll tell you why I have a problem ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]  I think the witness wants to know whether Xuma was the Director of Operations.  You've told us he was a member of the High Command, was he a Director of Operations?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes.

MR FOURIE: Thank you very much, you've answered my question and the question that Mr Prior put to you earlier and now I would like to say why I have a problem with this finally.  Very soon after this discussion regarding Mr Xuma, other questions were put to you - many more questions and particularly what impressed me was the speed at which you spoke and the detail which you delivered in that very fast speech, told me that you remember details very, very well because you could speak so quickly and with such great detail so I'm asking you: "Are you choosing to have a selective memory here or not"?  In other words, are there things that you want to remember and others you don't want to remember?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, I do not have selective amnesia, I'm speaking under oath.