Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually we decided to attack the enemy at that point because we knew and we were reconnoitring that area, that the enemy they are exchanging their shifts using that barrack within the hostel vicinity.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you just indicate to me, as far as your knowledge serves you, as far as I know there are two incidents where people were injured or killed, this is the Wimpy incident and the Katlehong incident.  Are you aware of any other incidents where you were involved in where people were either injured or killed?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that we have been reading newspapers.  We couldn't go back and verify because the only thing we knew was that was an enemy, enemy territory.  In order to verify we are supposed to be taking other initiatives.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, my questions are going to be in respect of your reconnaissance with regard to the Wimpy bombing.
	I want to know how long it took you to do your reconnaissance in terms of days, in terms of weeks, in terms of months?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually we took several months monitoring that area.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How several, two, three months?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I cannot remember because it's an old incident, but what I'm saying is that several months.

SISI KHAMPEPE: With whom were you when you were doing your reconnaissance?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I was on my own.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And the information that you had received from the ex-detainees, what exactly did it contain?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually the information contained that when people were being captured for being involved in the liberation struggle, they could be taken to Benoni Police Station and then during the process of undergoing severe interrogation, they could be taken to the Wimpy and those security guys would buy food and eat there, went back to the police station.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So the information was that the people who were detained were taken to Wimpy by the security members, given food and then taken back to the police station for further interrogation?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: What I'm saying is that they could be taken there - let's say they are inside this security cars and so the security personnel, they will went inside buy food and then they will come back and take them to the prison.  The other thing, they could go there on a daily basis for consultations or to plan other operations which we couldn't know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So the information was that the security members were frequenting that particular Wimpy Bar on a daily basis?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And it wasn't that they went there on Saturdays?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually what they were doing is that they could frequent the area every day because enemy we knew that it was operating seven days in a week, because they couldn't rest.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What kind of information did you elicit from your reconnaissance?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually the information that I've got is that the enemy forces were frequenting the Wimpy Bar and on Saturday, specifically Saturday, they could organise a meeting there or take their lunch after their ...[indistinct] or extracting information from their ...[indistinct].

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how was this information obtained, how were you able to obtain this particular information with regard to the meeting on Saturdays?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually I've managed to extract the information because I was also using a Wimpy Bar to get food and to listen and to see the environment inside, what they are doing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And in your frequenting the Wimpy Bar for purposes of collecting this kind of information, were you able to see whether there were any black patronage of that particular Wimpy Bar?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually in my position what I've noticed is that if the enemy is within the given territory with the support groups, meaning people who are supplying the enemy with information, they could be there always, especially on Saturday.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So in brief what you are saying is that you were able to observe black patronage in that particular Wimpy?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How big was that compared to the overall number of people that you were able to observe, for the past three months that you did your reconnaissance?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Will you repeat?

SISI KHAMPEPE: How big was the black presence of people who were patronising Wimpy?  You were able to do this reconnaissance for the past two to three months.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: What I can say is that our people couldn't have a chance to enjoy themselves, especially in Wimpy Bars ...[intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: How big?  I'm talking of numbers.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Oh, the number?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I cannot remember but they were very, there were a few but what I can say, I'm not so sure if I can say there were a few.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you able to also observe the number of workers who were at Wimpy?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Generally I could say they were plus minus 6 or 7, not so sure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And did you give this information to your command structure?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And was there any attitude adopted with regard to the presence of black people?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that when we planned to execute that operation, our main objective was to attack the enemy forces, not civilians as it has been stated.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  And how did you hope to achieve that, after you had seen that there was a small presence of black people frequenting that particular Wimpy?  How would you then have averted a civilian attack?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually I'm having a problem concerning the concept, civilian.  During the year 1985, our comrade President, Oliver Tambo, once spoke about a civilian and a policeman.  Now my problem is, how do you differentiate between a person in uniform and a person in civilian clothing but serving the same principle, being a policeman in disguise?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you take any precautions at all Mr Ndlovu, to avert any civilian casualty?  Can you honestly say that you did?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Can you repeat yourself?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you take any precautions to avert any civilian casualties, in carrying out your operation in that particular Wimpy?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes, we did take precaution.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you explain what precautions you took?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: The precaution is that during our operation we knew that that Wimpy Bar, especially 12 o'clock, the enemy forces will be there in large numbers and even their recruits in our townships, to supply them with information and to debrief their agents.  According to the area - according to the building itself, the Wimpy, it could not accommodate a large number of people and we know that by that time the enemy forces will be inside.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What time did you go into this particular Wimpy to plant the bomb?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: If I could remember, if my memory serves me well, I was there plus minus ten, half past ten, I'm not sure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Half past ten.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I'm not saying half past, I'm saying from ten onwards until half past, I'm not so sure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And the people who were there, were you able to observe any security members, of the people who were already there at 10 o'clock or past 10 o'clock?  Were you able to recognise any members of the Security Police?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Will you repeat?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Of the people who were there when you went in at past ten, were you able to recognise any members of the Security Police?