Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, was the "koyoco" already there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said when it left that road, it went straight to Amatola.

CHAIRPERSON: What Counsel is doing here, he is going through with you the statement that you made to the Police we are told.  This is just the beginning of the statement where you are recounting what you saw and heard.  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He has read to you a portion of the statement in which you say "I heard the noise outside and I went to the window".  Do you recall that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what I want to find out is when you went to the window, was the "koyoco" already there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, it was parked.

CHAIRPERSON: Had the "koyoco" gone away?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not understand, please repeat.  Please repeat that.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that when you heard the noise, you then went to the window.  Is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to know when you went to the window, was the Police vehicle, the "koyoco" still parked there or had it already left?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was still parked there.

MR STRYDOM: So just to have everything clear, the first thing you saw, was the "koyoco", then you heard noise?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Then you moved to the window?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No.   When I heard the noise, I went to the window.  As I looked through the window, I noticed that the "koyoco" was parked there.

MR STRYDOM: So you could not see the "koyoco" from where you were sitting?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was able to see, but I went to the window because of the noise and I still saw it parked there.

MR STRYDOM: The first time you saw the "koyoco" was when you went to the window, is that what you are saying?

CHAIRPERSON: No, as I understand his evidence, what he is saying is that whilst sitting down, he could see the "koyoco".  He heard the noise and then went to the window and when he went to the window, the "koyoco" was still there.  Is that what you are saying Mr Baloyi?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: In your evidence in chief when Mr Berger asked you questions, you testified as follows in relation to the "koyoco", you said
"... it moved off, thereafter there was a noise in the street.  I didn't see anything, I just heard the noise.  And then I saw a large group of people."
	How do you explain that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am only relating what I know.  Bafokeng Street is a big road, it is a long road so that when there is some commotion, you would hear the noise.  I first saw the "koyoco" and then when I heard the noise, I went to investigate through the window and I still saw that "koyoco" parked there.

MR STRYDOM: The "koyoco" was still parked there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, even right now, I can take you to show you exactly where it had been parked.  It even travelled on my garden.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that there was a "koyoco" there, but all that he wants to find out is whether when you went to the window and you heard the noise, was it still there, yes or no?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, it was still there.

MR STRYDOM: I also want clarity about one aspect, you say the "koyoco" was right in front of your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not quite get you, do you mean in front of the house or in front of the garden?

MR STRYDOM: In the street but opposite your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was not parked on the street, but on my lawn, that very same lawn that I had been watering.

MR STRYDOM: Just next to your fence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know how to explain it to you, you do not know the area.

MR STRYDOM: I have been there over lunch time, I know exactly.  Was it next to your fence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, very close.

MR STRYDOM: So it must have been very close to your window, is that not so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As I mentioned before, it is not just one window that faces the street, there are three windows facing the street.

MR STRYDOM: If I put to you that the "koyoco", if it was parked on your lawn, and you were inside the house, the "koyoco" was approximately this distance I am from you, from you at that stage, very close?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, exactly where you are seated, that was the distance.   The window would be where I am seated and the lawn will be in between.  Behind where you are, would be the street and at the wall at the back there, would be the Nqwani and Buwa households.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  So just for record purposes, I estimate this to be about five paces, five metres approximately.

CHAIRPERSON: From where you are up to where Mr Baloyi is?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, maybe six.

CHAIRPERSON: It can't be six paces.

ADV SIGODI: Four.

MR BERGER: I would have thought it is about half the distance we measured before, which would make it about seven and a half to ten.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I would have thought so.

MR STRYDOM: Ten?  Well, I am a runner and to cover ten metres, is a long distance, but I will measure it during the interval and place the correct distance on the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR STRYDOM: But in any event, what I want to put to you at such close range, you must have seen who the occupants were if there were any people in the vehicle at that stage?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I want to tell you straight, what you are saying is not true.  If a person is inside a "koyoco", you cannot identify them, you can tell maybe that they are black or white, but you cannot tell the identity with accuracy.

MR STRYDOM: But can you say the people in the "koyoco", were they black or white?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: If I were to say to you they were white, what would you say, because there were white people inside.

MR STRYDOM: So you saw white people inside the "koyoco", is that what you are saying?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is not what I said in the statement, I said it was a "koyoco", I did not specify whether it was white people or not.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, Mr Baloyi, please answer the question.  If you can say whether there were white people or black people inside the "koyoco", tell  us, if you don't know, say so, it is not going to help you to argue with Mr Strydom.  We expect you to give evidence here because that is what you said you wanted to do.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: This is my response, the people that I saw were seated in front of the "koyoco" and they were white.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you state earlier on that you could not see the people in the "koyoco"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am referring you to the occupants.

CHAIRPERSON: There were people at the front and there were people at the back?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I could see the people in the front, but not the people at the back.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, his evidence Mr Strydom is that he couldn't see clearly the people that were at the back, but he can state that those who were in front, were white people.

MR STRYDOM: And you still maintain that over that distance, you could not identify the colour of the vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You have to pardon me, I am not in a position to state the colour.

MR STRYDOM: When you looked through the window and you saw the people for the first time, what were they doing?  I am referring now to the attackers, not the people at the "koyoco" vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That large crowd of people were carrying items and they were headed towards the hostel.  Some of them went into the Nqwani and Buwa households.  After they left the Nqwani household, they came to my home, my home was the last house that was attacked.

MR STRYDOM: These people, can you identify them, how do you identify them, what can you tell the Committee about them, apart from that they carried stuff?