Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-11

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, it's not that I like money.  Let me just try and explain that at Koeberg it wasn't just myself who said: "Man, because we're not getting money that we were promised, let us leave", all of us agreed about that because we were actually promised by that.  I wouldn't actually live on the R300, I wouldn't actually survive.
	At Sasol we were told that if we have a problem we must just come back to Mashobane and we went to Mashobane but he actually escaped and if we did find him and he explained to us that: "I actually just wanted you to work for the IFP, there is no money", I would have went back there.  If he was ...[indistinct].  It's just that he just - we couldn't even find him, he just disappeared and that is why we decided to do that.

MR MOLOI: So the issue was you would not survive with the little money you were earning, is that what you're saying?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes.

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Motata, do you have any questions?

ADV MOTATA: Just about four, Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Mr Khumalo, I want you to focus on Incidents 6 and 7, would you agree with me that that month and dates are known on both incidents as stated in page 362 and 363?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, I do.

ADV MOTATA: What I want to know from you is, were you now with the KwaZulu Police when those two incidents happened?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, I was working with them until I left Mpumalanga.

ADV MOTATA: In respect of the two incidents?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Now if I heard you correctly, you mentioned that partly why you had to be engaged by the KwaZulu Police, was to work under cover and for protection because you would have been carrying an Appointment Certificate as a policeman, did I understand you correctly?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: And did I understand you correctly once more, that you said when you knocked off, the guns were taken away from you?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Now, you mentioned that it was easy to carry a gun because now you had an Appointment Certificate, did I hear you correctly as well?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: When these guns are taken away from you, how would you now have protection against the enemy, the UDF in this instance?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: When we actually left the police weapons, we actually took them on our arrival and leave them on our departure.  We actually had the illegal ones, we were using those thereafter.

ADV MOTATA: Now please explain it to us here, that in both incidents, the first one you had to get a 9mm from somebody, a 9mm pistol from somebody and in the second incident you had also to go and borrow a 7.65 from somebody.  Where were these illegal weapons stored then, if they were not accessible as you say?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: I will just explain with the HMC.  The HMC wasn't actually staying with one person, it will be with that person at that particular time if the situation is tense, but we were sharing it.  If the situation was bad, that person - it wasn't official or legal.  The 7.65, I don't know whether it was legal or not, I can't explain that.

ADV MOTATA: Okay let's go to the next one.  When you were questioned by Mr Wills, you said the KwaZulu Police encouraged you to continue with your acts, could you give us an indication what they said or how they encouraged you?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: I will just make an example like with Jabulani Makatini.  I'm not a Mpumalanga resident, I just came here.  He is the driver and he is the one who knows our job.  He is a driver, he goes to that stronghold or the section that is the stronghold of the comrades.  That is how he was involved.

ADV MOTATA: And lastly Mr Khumalo, you woke up at 3 - that is now referring to Mrs Xhaba, you woke up at 3a.m., went to a place next to Mrs Xhaba and you saw her emerging at 5a.m., do you recall that?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, I do.

ADV MOTATA: And again you don't remember the month and the date but it was in 1988?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, it was '88.

ADV MOTATA: What I want to know from you, was it dark at 5, when you set after her?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: It was still dark.

ADV MOTATA: Now the passage you entered, was there any light in that passage?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, there was not light.

ADV MOTATA: Even when you climbed the stairs, was there any light?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No.

ADV MOTATA: Now when she was about two and a half paces and you stamped your foot on one of the stairs when she turned, this is what I want to know, could she see you or the gun you had with you, before you just shot her?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: Yes, she could have seen me and the gun.

ADV MOTATA: If for instance, this is what I want to know, she was alive today, she could say: "I saw the person who shot me and the gun he used to shoot me with"?  In those instances, could we say you were identifiable and your gun as well could be seen by her?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: It is difficult to say but I think it will depend on the person, just how well they can see in the dark.  For instance, I could see.

ADV MOTATA: So in other words, in your mind you thought she had seen you but you cannot say with certainty that she actually saw you and the gun, you cannot say that with certainty, can you?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: No, I cannot say it with certainty.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Khumalo.  Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Khumalo, you said that all the Caprivian trained people received this general instruction to carry on the war at their own discretion, even if they are in a situation where they cannot get instructions from a superior, is that correct?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just arising out of that, if that was the general instruction, can you think of any reason why you were not issued with a firearm, merely because you were a Caprivian trained soldier?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: When we were trained we were told that we would not be given weapons individually, but that each person should try at his discretion or should use whatever he could to obtain a gun.  It was one of those situations.  Sometimes I would have a gun for a day and have to give it to somebody on another day.

CHAIRPERSON: We've also heard evidence earlier on when you were present, I think it was when we were in Richard's Bay, I think it was the evidence of Mr Mkhize, that some of the Caprivians were just unreliable, he never even thought of making use of them as a unit commander because they were unreliable, they had turned to drink, they were drunkards, they were womanisers, as he put it, and couldn't be relied upon.  Would such people also have had the general instruction to kill at their own discretion?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: I do not think so because the people who were told, I think were people who were loyal and maybe who had received instructions before and who were trusted.  I cannot say it with certainty, but I do not think that such people would have been given general instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said in your evidence that you found yourself in a situation, it was a situation where you couldn't just walk away from because if you did you would probably have got yourself killed, if you just decided well, I'm no longer going to participate in this war and walked away, is that correct?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what made you continue, what made you participate in the war, was it because you wanted to do it or was it because of this fear that if you didn't do it, you would get punished in the most severe way?

BHEKISISA ALEX KHUMALO: I have never been threatened.  All that I did was because I was convinced that I was doing what I should do for my organisation, the IFP.  I was never forced or coerced into something.