Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-03

UNKNOWN: Would you then describe Altech as a private sector company that did the bulk of its work for Armscor?

UNKNOWN: No, Chair, Altech is a holding company of a number of operating companies, quite a big number of operating companies.  Some of these companies are in telecommunications, other are in information technology, other in defence work.  So it was a conglomerate of companies, still is.

UNKNOWN: I now understand that you were not with Altech at the time of the Helderberg disaster, which is the subject of our enquiry.

UNKNOWN: That's correct, Chair, I was still with Armscor at the time, if I remember, 1987.  I left Armscor in 1990/1989 and went to Altech.

UNKNOWN: However, you said that even after you joined you had no knowledge that there was cargo destined for Altech on the Helderberg?

UNKNOWN: I had no knowledge of that.  I still have no knowledge of that.

UNKNOWN: Our problem is this, that at the time the Margo Board of Enquiry wrote to Armscor and asked Armscor whether they or any of their subsidiary companies or companies that did procurement work for them had an cargo on the plane.  They made an emphatic denial.  We now know that there was a number of cargoes destined for Barlow Rand, which was then not known also as an Armscor related company, and then two cargo which were from a specific pallet that were destined for Altech.  It came from Japan, the assignment was set to be or labelled as fax machines, the other one measuring instruments.  This cargo was never searched in Taipei where it was re-loaded and unfortunately none of this was recovered during the search operation.  From most other consignments one or two pieces were recovered.  There has been a lot of speculation over the years that some of the cargo that came from Japan could have caused - with something illegal destined for Armscor, I'm sure you're aware of that.  Perhaps you can just help us how to establish, or to clear this matter up, how to establish what was really on that cargo and why it was not owned up to by Armscor or Altech.

UNKNOWN: Chair, I couldn't speculate at all on this issue.  I am aware of the fact that Armscor made declarations on this score at the time and I couldn't possibly add anything to that.

UNKNOWN: But you must understand that there is a possibility, quite a high probability now that that was a false statement from Armscor.

UNKNOWN: I have no way of saying whether that could be so or not, as far as I am concerned, I cannot add anything to that.

UNKNOWN: Did you work under Mr Bill Venter?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I did work under Dr Bill Venter, although my reporting line was not directly to Dr Venter, I reported to the Chairman of Altech, who in turn reported to Dr Venter.

UNKNOWN: Dr Venter, you are aware, was also President of the CSIR?

UNKNOWN: No, Chair, Dr Venter I know is the Chairman of the Board.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I'm sorry, yes, incorrect.  Unfortunately, you know, our problem is also that they did the tests, the CSIR did the tests to find out what kind of substance - or were one of the companies that did the official test, so there might have also been a conflict of interests.

MS PATTA: Since I have spoken to you, have you done anything to try and find out whether there was a consignment on the Helderberg?

UNKNOWN: I have, Chair, had a discussion with Mr Wiehahn to inform him that I was invited to give testimony and I have of course searched my memory as clearly as I could.  It is a period of 10 years ago, maybe 11 years ago if I'm not mistaken.  There is nothing that I can find in my memory that would suggest that there was dangerous substances on that cargo.  If I had known, even at the time - excuse me, let me put that right, I was not in a direct position to be involved in those matters in my responsibilities and there is nothing now that I could have found in my recollection that would add to that.

MS PATTA: But we now know that Armscor was in fact sanctions busting and that a lot of things were probably and most likely from what we have now found out, cargoed on passenger planes for Armscor.

UNKNOWN: Chair, I certainly knew nothing of that and I certainly know nothing of that now.

MS PATTA: Have you found out what Altec was importing from Japan at the time?

UNKNOWN: Chair, the business of Altech is a very wide electronics business.  There is always components, electronic component systems being imported into the company or into the range of companies.  I couldn't possibly say at a specific moment what they were importing and what they were not importing, but when you say that it was fax machines and measuring equipment, it certainly does not sound to me as if that is out of the ordinary for that business.  That would be rather typical for that matter.

MS PATTA: Dr Steyn, presumably if Altech, according to the cargo manifest Altech had this stuff on the plane, presumably Altech would have claimed insurance, do you if Altech claimed insurance for the stuff that was lost that went down with the plane, it was expensive, it lost the company money, and could you find those records for us?

UNKNOWN: Chairman, I have no idea what the answer to that question is, and no, I could not, as explained, I've left the service of Altech some four years ago, and I think the recourse would be to the company itself directly.

MS PATTA: Can you help us clear up the fact that, or to understand whether there was a specific relationship between Somchem and Altech at any particular time?

UNKNOWN: Chair, if there was, I would be surprised.  The businesses are completely different.  I'm sure that in the South African industry most industrialists know each other, but I am not aware of a specific relationship, business relationship between Somchem and Altech in the latter half of the 1980's.

MS PATTA: Why are you saying in the latter half of the 1980's?

UNKNOWN: There might have been before that, I don't know.

MS PATTA: I would similarly like to ask you, was there any specific relation between Altec and the Maritime Institute?

UNKNOWN: Chair, there the relationship might have been more natural.  The Institute for Maritime Technology was Armscor's research and development facility for maritime matters, and many of the equipment that they used and many of the technologies that they used were of an electronic nature, so that would have been more understandable.  If you ask me, do I recall specific contracts or relationships, no I don't.

MS PATTA: During your time at Armscor did you know a procurement person by the name of Mr Oslo?

UNKNOWN: No, could you be more specific in terms of the first name?

MS PATTA: I'm sorry, I've lost it - Barry.

UNKNOWN: Barry Oslo, no, I'm afraid I don't.  I don't recall someone like that.

MS PATTA: He died on the plane after having a very strange trip and Armscor has, until yesterday, denied that he was an agent for them.  Mr Chair, I don't have any further question.

UNKNOWN: Maybe, seeing as you were a member where you were working for Armscor in 1987, you could just explain, the way Armscor would bring materials into the country, it was a time of sanctions busting, there was an arms embargo against South Africa, we now know with the benefit of hindsight that Armscor did contravene international relations, regulations and brought material in.  Could you just give us a picture of the kind of practices that Armscor was involved in at the time and how they would link up with South African Airways.

UNKNOWN: Chair, as explained earlier on here, my job was at the time, the research and development, and although I was aware of the procurement activity of Armscor, I was not involved.  I would propose that you ask those questions to the people who know far better than I do, I'm sorry to be - I do not mean not to co-operate, I'd like to co-operate as far as I can, but certainly there are just people that know this better than I do.