Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: If you ask me questions that are not pointed, you'll get answers that are very educative.  So, this is a document, chapter 17 from Col Stadler's book.  It claims that it has, it is an extract from the records of Vula communications.  I would like the Committee to first indicate to me and guide me whether this falls within second-hand information or whether really it is accepted as Vula records?

MR VISSER: Well, just tell us whether you accept it as correct or not.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I don't.

MR VISSER: You don't.  Alright.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Wait a minute, wait a minute, you asked me to comment.  I would like to know whether Col Stadler has got a copy of the Vula communications, if as is being claimed that all records are destroyed.

MR VISSER: No, no.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It is they saying that the Vula records are available to Col Stadler, file those records.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, it could never have been claimed that all records had been destroyed, certainly that can't be correct.  Most of the records probably have been destroyed, but some records remain and if you want to see the print-out, the computer print-out, perhaps we could arrange for you to see it.  If Stadler has that available, there's no reason ...(intervention)

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I thought any filing of a record would need to authenticate that record and Stadler's quoting does not authenticate it.

MR VISSER: Yes, I take your point from a legal point of view, I take your point, but this is a Commission of Inquiry, we're inquiring into things.  Now let us just test this.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Let's just test this.  Do you recall an encoded message which referred to Ntaba and to the requirement of two pieces sent by you to Nyanda?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Hold on, hold on.  Chairperson, your guidance please.  Has it got any relevance to the application?

MR VISSER: Yes, I see you don't want to answer these questions, do you?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Not because I don't want to answer it, your conclusion here and Stadler's conclusion is that we were trying to assassinate Madiba.

MR VISSER: Who is Madiba?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Madiba is Mandela.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now some policeman.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mandela, I served under Mandela, as his Minister, he appointed me but he has problems.

MR VISSER: Madiba is no policeman.

MR LAX: Just let's have one person talking at the same time, please.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Now, I'm saying I have no problems about answering on these matters when they are made relevant because I have waited for the day when you put this properly with the records of Vula.  I'll show you how Stadler was, is really trying to do propaganda and he thought by putting this and putting his interpretation and putting a set of questions on page 118, he thinks he's putting me in the dock.  Well I'm in nobody's dock.  I'm not facing any charges, Mandela appointed me as his Minister and right now he and I remain the closest of friends.  Stadler hasn't planted a seed of dissension between us.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: So he's completely wild.

MR VISSER: Alright, at page 118 of Exhibit B, paragraph 11, I just want to read that to you.
"Subsequent to the arrest of Siphiwe Nyanda, a vehicle which was found in his possession, namely a Toyota Cressida, with registration number ND268230 was searched and found to contain a number of hidden secret compartments.  In one of these compartments close to the boot of the vehicle, the following equipment was found,"
I'm going to read it as :
"1 M3A1 45 calibre sub...intervention)

MS POSWA: Can I just interject Mr Chair.  Should we incorporate this as well, or what is going on now?  Does this form part of Mr Steyn's statement, or what is happening now?

MR VISSER: The whole of Exhibit B is before you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevance of all this?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we have  witness here which has come to this Committee without any locus standi, except as a witness.  He has come...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When you said he does not accept this passage is correct, do you intend to call someone to prove the passage.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I've already accepted his evidence in that regard.  I thought you were asking me about the basis of the questions.  No, no, I thought I made it clear.  If he said that he doesn't accept it, well we go on.

CHAIRPERSON: You aren't, you're now still questioning him on those passages.

MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, he didn't accept the passage which deals with the assassination of Madiba and the quotation which, of the encoded message by Stadler in his book "The Other Side of the Story", that's how I understood his evidence and that being so, I leave it.  I leave it at that, Mr Chairman.  I'm now on to something else, Mr Chairman, I'm going on.  At page 118, paragraph 11.1
"Subsequent to the arrest of Siphiwe Nyanda"

MR LAX: Sorry, we've read all that, let's, we've got as far as the listing of what was found in the vehicle.

MR VISSER: Thank you, thank you Commissioner Lax.  You see, I want to point out to you that one of the items that was found, it was the second one, 1 x optical night sight for the above weapon, that is for the 45 calibre sub-machine gun.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Who wrote "for the above weapon"?

MR VISSER: You say that is incorrect?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I want to show you Chair, I want to show you what is happening here by Stadler.  You find an optical night sight and I want to tell you what optical night sight that was because I brought it in Vula in 1988, it was a NATO night sight, North Atlantic Treaty Organisation night sight.

MR VISSER: NATO night sight.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, which we bought on the black market in Europe for Five thousand pounds.

MR VISSER: To do what with?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: To shoot the enemy.

MR VISSER: And is this ...(intervention)

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And the enemy was not Mandela.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The enemy was the apartheid regime.

MR VISSER: I accept that.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Who put this "night sight for the above weapon"?  That is Stadler.

MR VISSER: You say that's wrong?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: He is building a case.

MR VISSER: I see, alright.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And then this sub-machine gun, nothing to do with this paragraph 2 weeks before my arrest.

MR VISSER: Alright.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Because he brought in the night sight two years ago.  Our sub-machine gun, I don't know how many months before.

MR VISSER: Answer this question.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: This paragraph which talks about enemy, I'll tell you there's only one people who've been my enemy.  My enemy has been the apartheid regime.

MR VISSER: And the applicants in this application.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: But Stadler, Stadler, reading into the word enemy group, suddenly wants to present as if to say the enemy of Mac Maharaj and Jacob Zuma is Mandela.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You don't have the normal intelligence to read that ANC literature says enemy is the apartheid regime.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: So you play games there and you want to put me questions by Stadler.  Propaganda.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, can we try to get you on the plane at 2 o'clock?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I didn't know you were always so helpful to me.

MR VISSER: I really certainly want to finish.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you.