Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not aware of the punching.  I am aware if it is this specific morning we are speaking about, is that I put your head into a wet bag.

MR KRUSE: I don't think, you first tried to talk and get me to speak without a wet bag.  Is that not correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The exact sequence of events, I cannot remember.  I do presume this is the morning we went to look for your passport?

MR KRUSE: That is correct.  Now, do you remember blindfolding me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not, specifically, but I could have.

MR KRUSE: Do you remember tying my legs?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Tying or handcuffing?

MR KRUSE: Tying my legs, I don't know if you used a belt or something to tie my legs?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not specifically, but I could have.

MR KRUSE: Do you remember handcuffing my hands behind my back?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As I say, in all probability yes.

MR KRUSE: Now, to do that, who was present with you?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I cannot remember.  You say it was Goosen, was there, I concede Goosen could have been there.

MR KRUSE: Liebenberg?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not sure, he may have been there also.

MR KRUSE: What was the reasons for blindfolding me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Was this prior to putting the black bag over you or for transporting you to look for your passport?

MR KRUSE: Prior to the black bag method you are so notoriously known for.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I cannot remember it specifically, but I can't give a reason for why I blindfolded you.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have told us that that was your procedure.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Of putting the black bag over a person's head.

CHAIRPERSON: Blindfolding a person and then putting the wet bag on, then.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not in all accounts, but I would concede that I blindfolded him.   Why I did it on that specific time, I cannot say Sir.

MR KRUSE: Mr Benzien, you stated you were an expert at the black bag method.  I don't understand you used the methods and you used a certain sequence in the method, surely there is a reason for everything.
	I mean that is not an event which you can't remember.  It is a method you used, which you yourself confess to be an expert at.  I want to know why you blindfolded me before you put the bag over my head.  There has to be a reason for that, isn't it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I haven't got a reason to offer the court.

CHAIRPERSON: what is the reason normally, why do you do that in the first place?  Not necessarily to him, but we have heard evidence from you that you put a blindfold over the person, and then you put the bag over his head.
	The question is what is the purpose of blindfolding the person?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Disorientation, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Disorientation?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR KRUSE: Wouldn't the bag do that without a blindfold?

CHAIRPERSON: Or is it necessary for you to worry about that?

MR KRUSE: Sorry, I want to put it that the reason why he blindfolded me was that he didn't want me to see the people around who were with him while doing that method.  I think that is the reason why they blindfolded.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you must put it along those lines.

MR KRUSE: But I want to get there.

CHAIRPERSON: It is put to you that one reason, or the reason why you blindfolded him, was because you didn't want him to see who else was in the room.  Is that the reason why people are blindfolded?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It could quite be a possible reason, Your Worship.

MR KRUSE: You testified yesterday that when you went to court, that you would be the only person against the accused, and there would be no other witnesses, is that not correct?  When they contested their confessions around assault?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Are we speaking about in the criminal courts?

MR KRUSE: But you would go there when they would accuse you of torturing, you would be alone with the accused and it would be your word against the accused, and no other witnesses?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Your Worship.

MR KRUSE: In my case, although I could not see, I could hear Liebenberg and Goosen present when you applied the method.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is possible, Your Worship.

MR KRUSE: Were they there or weren't they there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I cannot specifically remember.

MR KRUSE: Were they there in any of the tortures, were you never with anyone at any given stage, I mean you tortured numerous people, were you always alone?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In most cases, yes.

MR KRUSE: How is it possible to tie someone's feet, people are normally resisting, tie their hands, put them on their stomach which is quite awkward, climb in between their legs, or climb in between their arms which you normally do, so that you can feel the tension of the body, on your own?
	You know it is not possible to do that on your own?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It can be done.  And I also concede on certain occasions I was helped to get the person into that position, but the actual bagging was done by me alone.

MR KRUSE: Which people ever helped you, can you remember anyone who ever helped you at any occasion?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Goosen.

MR KRUSE: Any other people?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not specifically, these specific incidents.

MR KRUSE: But do you remember any other names?  I am sure you - you testified that you had this reputation, you had done this thing so many times, I mean you are close to certain people, I am sure you can remember on certain times these people were present.  They knew about your events?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: They were aware of my events, but when it came down to this type of work, there weren't many volunteers, to put it that way.

MR KRUSE: Jeffery, they never had the expertise of you with the bag, but surely they would not require expertise to stand and  watch you doing it or assist you doing it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It used to transpire in a closed office where it would just be the victim and myself and it is possible, once a person is handcuffed, to get him onto the ground.	To tie the legs is then just a formality.

MR KRUSE: Do you remember Smit being there, at any given stage, Superintendent Smit, now Assistant Commissioner Smit?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: During your torture?

MR KRUSE: Mine or any other person's?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not to my knowledge Sir, they were in a complete different building to us.

MR KRUSE: They would never come in when a new accused was brought to Culemborg?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not to my knowledge.

MR KRUSE: Was Liebenberg present at any time that you can remember?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Liebenberg was, considering we were in the same offices, were there on numerous occasions.

MR KRUSE: While you gave people the black bag treatment?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR KRUSE: Thank you.

MR KRUSE: Now after the black bag treatment, you remember we went to look for my passport?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: Do you remember where we went to?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think we went to Kensington.

MR KRUSE: That is correct.  What transpired there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: You alleged your passport was being held by a lady and you pointed out the house and we recovered the passport.

MR KRUSE: How many people were present in the house?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think the lady in question and I can't remember how many other people.

MR KRUSE: Was there a small kid in the house, a toddler?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There may have been, I can't remember.

MR KRUSE: Was there another women present in the house?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Could have been there, I can't remember.

MR KRUSE: What was your attitude towards the occupants of the house?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I demanded your passport.

MR KRUSE: What was your attitude besides demanding, what type of behaviour, were you abusive, were you nice to them, did you act in terms of how a policeman would ask for a passport?