Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR MOHAPE: I'm saying the time I was taken - when I went to his office, I arrived there as early as, I think it was four o'clock when he said I must be there but I waited in his office until past five and I think at that time it was .[indistinct] if I'm not mistaken and when it was late he took his friend, he was giving his friend a lift to his flat and after giving his friend a lift to his flat then we went, proceeded to that place.
	I was with my brother, in that instance Jannie and when we arrived to the area where you know, that thing happened it was a bit, you know it was going to be a bit dark, I don't know how can I call it but it was already sunset and it was difficult for me when he said we must look for a cartridge.  
	I could not see anything, you know it was no longer visible, you could not see anything on the ground if you are looking for anything expect if perhaps you could have been having a torch around you.

UNKNOWN: How long after the incident was that?

MR MOHAPE: I think it was, if I'm not mistaken, it was about two weeks, it was after two weeks if I'm not mistaken.

UNKNOWN: And did you hear any shooting at - while you were assaulted?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How many shots?

MR MOHAPE: When they said I must jump a fence and I jumped that fence, somebody shot towards my direction because I was running and then they got into the car.

UNKNOWN: How many shots, I've asked you how many shots?

MR MOHAPE: One.

UNKNOWN: Thanks.

ADV MEMANI: Did Mr Kruger ever suggest that you should get back to the scene during the day when you could see?

MR MOHAPE: No, he never suggested anything.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

MR BRINK: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: You told us about Mr Ngo and his behaviour as a student and said he was driving a Toyota Corolla?

MR MOHAPE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What colour car was that?

MR MOHAPE: It was a beige one.

CHAIRPERSON: Beige Toyota?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That's while he was still at school?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You also gave evidence that once you visited the place where he was staying and you found those documents there.

MR MOHAPE: Correct.

UNKNOWN: After he had been exposed and everyone knew he was a informer now, January round about 1986 I believe?

MR MOHAPE: Correct.

UNKNOWN: According to your evidence, because that was after the '85 COSAS Congress?

MR MOHAPE: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Where did he stay then, do you know?

MR MOHAPE: Beyond ...[intervention].

UNKNOWN: Ja.

MR MOHAPE: No, I did not because ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: After you've burned the documents.

MR MOHAPE: Now let me put it this way, you know we are confusing two things here.  At the time when I got the documents it was December 1985 when I went there to his house and found that woman and that woman gave me the document.  I'm trying to you know put it that these dates correct because you see, the conference of '84 and '85 it's, similar things happened but they're different and I would say that they are different in this fashion in '84 because I am mistaken by saying it's '85.
	In '84 it is when '83 December when we went to the first conference when we were telling him that he cannot, let me get the dates correct, I'm sorry to confuse dates a bit but I want to put them clear.  The first conference that we had was December, let me see, let me see, it is December '83/'84, yes it is '83 December when we got the documents whilst he was staying at Pahameng then in '84 December it is when we were going to the conference, the second conference and then in that one it is when he took documentation from other students.

UNKNOWN: I just want to point out this difference from your statement this morning because this morning you told me
"December '84 we are at a Conference of COSAS, Ngo's suspicion grew.  1984 Ngo uninvitedly attended the Congress in December. 1986 January, it was confirmed that that he's been an informer"

MR MOHAPE: I know, that's why I was saying I wanted to put those dates clear it's not that there is a confusion in that.  It's just that I'm missing, you know, this years that's why I'm trying to put them into perspective.  And I think the correct perspective is that one of 1984 the first conference that we attended, the second conference is the one of 1985 December that those are the correct dates.  I don't think there's anything wrong with that, those are the correct dates yes.

UNKNOWN: Now after you exposed him as being an informer and you exposed him because you found the documents there, in December.

MR MOHAPE: No, we got ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: They got the list.

MR MOHAPE: It was a list, that one.  The first documents we got them after the conference of 1984.  The one that I burnt, the diary of the Freedom Charter and got some notes that was written and then in 1985, it is when we got the list.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1985?

MR MOHAPE: '85 December, yes.  Is when we got the list where he has written names of students because I'm saying '85, I'm saying it in this fashion, that December '85 it was the Conference of COSAS when we went to the conference in Durban and when we were there those documentation that I said was a folder of COSAS with an emblem of COSAS, that was later found at security branch in January '86 by a student who was picked up by the security branch and then '86 that January we were involved in a campaign to recruit new students for COSAS and in that '86 January, it is when then we found the list in his case.

UNKNOWN: Do you know where he was staying at that time?

MR MOHAPE: No at that time he was no longer staying at Pahameng,I did not know where he was staying.

UNKNOWN: Did you see him - but he was still around, you saw him?

MR MOHAPE: He was around, he was, Ja.

UNKNOWN: And in December 1985 when he attended the Congress uninvited in Durban was he still at the same school?

MR MOHAPE: Yes he was at school, he was a member of COSAS and it's when we took a deliberate decision to say we are excluding him from the delegation because we suspect he's an informer.

UNKNOWN: And after you've taken the gun from him, he never attended the school again?

MR MOHAPE: No, let me answer it, yes on the day after we disarmed him it was a Monday, he never came to school.  No, no let me not mistake myself unnecessarily.  On Monday when we exposed him to saying you have not attended meetings because you know ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Then he came on a Friday again with the gun.  And after you've taken away the gun he never attended the school again?

MR MOHAPE: Ja.

UNKNOWN: But he was still around in Bloemfontein?

MR MOHAPE: Well I will not be certain if he was around Bloemfontein because at that time, it is the time when now I was
wanted for these murder charges and then when I was arrested and subsequent to that going to court, he then appeared in court as a witness.

UNKNOWN: I see.  Can you perhaps remember when you appeared in court?  Not the exact date but round about say January or June or whatever?

MR MOHAPE: Honestly, I cannot recall that.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman with your leave may I put something which I forgot to ask from the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Mohape, you've told us that you marginalised Ngo and excluded him from the conference that was going to be held at Durban in 1985?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: But he, however, appeared there?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: Is it correct that at that conference he was brought by Erasmus?