Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

MR TIPP: Chairperson, I'm not sure if my learned friend is referring to the marchers who were shot by the police at Library Gardens, there were ten people, some marchers, some not, one policeman, one office worker who were killed at Library Gardens.  The remainder of the people who were killed on that day in Johannesburg on the East Rand or the West Rand and Sowetu have not been classified into groups Zulu or not Zulu so I'm not quite sure what my learned friend is referring to.

MR PRETORIUS: I am referring inter alia to Zulus that were killed at Library Gardens, I'm also referring to Mr Tonko who was killed outside Lancet Hall.  The impression, Mr Chairman, that is left or that is being created is that these - there were 56 people that were killed by the marchers which is the total incorrect impression.

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't heard any incidents about that.

MR PRETORIUS: Well I just want to clarify that impression that it must not be taken or the impression must be left.
Thank you Mr Chairman, I will leave it at that then.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, if I could just assist the Committee, the details of the persons who were killed on the day other than the people who were killed at Library Gardens, Shell House and Lancet Hall are set out in a memorandum which is part of bundle B, prepared by the ANC or on behalf of the ANC starting Chairperson from page 207 of bundle B right through to page 253.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it not start at 197?

MR TIPP: I beg your pardon from page 197.  The circumstances of some of those killings are also covered to some extent in the index to the SAP Channel 27, if one reads through that index Chairperson, one will see from time to time mention is made by policemen of bodies lying at various railway stations.  Some of those people are also mentioned in the documents from page 197 on.  But all the deaths are systematically recorded from page 197 to page 253.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think this will be an appropriate stage to see that video?

MR VAN WYK: Yes, I would like to pose certain questions to this witness specifically with relation to the video because there has now been some evidence led by him in this regard as to the positioning of the deceased and injured people and I would like to pose specific questions to him with reference to the video.  It's three minutes video footage I would like to show, I know exactly which video, which video footage, which minutes so if the technical personnel could assist me I would be able to pinpoint that.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] in that gesturing, particularly in relation to our client Mr Zuma who has already given evidence, I am informed by persons who understand the language spoken by the people there that what was said was "Mondli Zuma, you must kill them again - you are a betrayer, you will be killed before this hearing is over."  Unprintable expletives were used which I do not put on record and shouts of there will be no peace, there will be no peace, we will get you in Natal.
	Now I'm sure that our learned friends appearing for the objectors and although the persons that may have been making these threats have been their clients or not or mere supporters or identify themselves.  In our troubled history Mr Chairman, this may not be a unique situation but in our experience, the legal representatives representing the people concerned can play an important role in advising their clients and their supporters that they should try to behave in a manor which will allow these proceedings to take place in a peaceful atmosphere.  We have experienced that before you and others people have shouted slogans they have expressed their emotions but this is the first time in my experience in which in the presence of the police and in the presence of a gathering of legal representatives, dire threats of death are being issued against an applicant or a witness.  We view it in a serious light and we would ask you to appeal to our learned friends and if need be the members of the police force who may understand that language that an incitement to murder in a judicial proceeding is just not acceptable, Mr Chairman and licence cannot be given to the objectors and or their friends to utter dire threats of death in this room, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What you have said is recorded, I think that one must take into account that some of the anger that one witnessed and some of the cries that we heard were as a result of memories being revived of their next of kin and their dearest ones being seen lying dead.  I can understand that the emotions can be aroused by seeing such scenes as we have seen.  It is regrettable that the meeting, the sitting of this Committee has been disrupted as a result of what has just happened, but to allow the situation to reach some kind of normality, my Committee has come to the conclusion that we will adjourn now and resume tomorrow morning and I have already spoken to counsel who appear for the objectors and the relatives and victims and I once again tell them that they must exercise such powers that they have to impress upon their clients the importance of these proceedings and why every effort should be made to allow these proceedings to proceed in a normal way.
	It is our assessment that if we commence now at this hour trouble may continue outside this auditorium, it might result in some kind of violence now.  We feel that the chance of such violence would be reduced if we adjourn now, allow tempers to calm down, allow people's emotions to come under control and perhaps with a little bit of luck and your efforts, we may be able to make a beginning and continue with this hearing tomorrow morning.
	Such threats as have been made to Mr Zuma by people here are matters that are beyond the control of this Committee or it's powers, we have police present here, security people present here and they have to take the responsibility of seeing that threats are not carried out, that's made in this auditorium, are not carried out.
	Ladies and Gentlemen, I'm now going to adjourn these proceedings until 9.30 tomorrow morning.  The Committee adjourns.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITEE ADJOURNS