Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR SIBAYA: I would not know about that, I was told to withdraw totally from the case.

NORMAN ARENDSE: When were you told to withdraw from the case, totally?

MR SIBAYA: Before the case began.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did the police or the prosecutor talk to you about your statement before the case began?

MR SIBAYA: Mr Segal took me to the Attorney General and he said to the Attorney General that I should not be used as a witness there are other witnesses at the case.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Because it seems to me that they intended to use you as a witness but you were not used as a witness.  Your name was on the list of witnesses, do you know that your name was on a list of witnesses?

MR SIBAYA: My name, I was told to withdraw.  They said that my evidence was not good enough.  I did not go to court as a witness.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Sibaya I want to agree with whoever they were who said your evidence was not good enough, I agree with them.  Your evidence is not good enough to implicate the applicants here today, and neither is your evidence good enough to implicate Mr Ntsebeza as an accomplice whether before, during or after the fact.  Do you agree with me?

MR SIBAYA: Listen Sir, I am not here to put charges on anyone.  I am not saying that somebody should be put into trouble, I am just telling you what I saw.

JUDGE WILSON: I think it should....
The speakers mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: I think it should be made clear that there is no evidence suggesting he was an accomplice.  The evidence went no further than to suggest that a car belonging, that a car that was present at the scene had the number plates which had been allocated to him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Judge.  Mr Sibaya you also mentioned in your statement that this man you saw driving the white Audi was a well-built man.  Now in your earlier statement you said that - this is the one in '94, you said this well-built man was between 28 and the early thirties, that's on page 84 of the record.  Then this man seemed to have aged, because in '97 you now say that this man is in his thirties or forties.

MR SIBAYA: I was guessing, I just saw his upper body, he was in the car.  I was estimating.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now you made a categorical statement in paragraph 13 on page 91 of the record.  You say
"This man was a well-built man, late thirties or early forties.  He was wearing a short-sleeved shirt.  It was a very hot day that day.  I can never forget the make of the car, the number of the car...."
now you've been very good at that, about the car and about the number plate, and you also say -
"... I can never forget his face".

MR SIBAYA: That is true, I will never forget his face.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is there anyone in this room here today who approximates that face that you saw that night?

MR SIBAYA: Where?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Here.  You can look around, you can stand up, look around, look behind you, to your side, look right around.

MR SIBAYA: Do you want me to walk around?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, no, you can just maybe stand up and you can take your time and you can have a look.

MR PRIOR: With respect can he walk around, maybe that might assist him, if he could get close to - he's been invited to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If you have invited him to have a look you might as well afford him the best opportunity.

NORMAN ARENDSE: As you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibaya will you please stand and look around and see if you can recognise the person.  Go right around.
MR SIBAYA WALKS AROUND THE ROOM

CHAIRPERSON: Yes sorry, hold it.

INTERPRETER: The witness did not have his earphones on when he was asked to get up and walk around.

MR SIBAYA: I want to make sure because his face was similar to this one.

CHAIRPERSON: What does he say?

MR SIBAYA: I say his face is strong, he is well-built but this man who is now sitting down is also strong, but I must be sure.
MR SIBAYA CONTINUES TO WALK AROUND THE ROOM

CHAIRPERSON: Give him a microphone so he can talk if he wishes to.

MR SIBAYA: It is the man with the orange top that was in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did he point to?

INTERPRETER: The Interpreters are waiting for the witness to be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse proceed.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sibaya the man in the orange top whom you have pointed out would it be correct that you have seen him in these proceedings since you've been here, that's since yesterday and today or haven't you noticed him?

MR SIBAYA: I did not look at him carefully because even the man - pointing to Advocate Sandi, also has a strong face.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's place on record the gentleman that has been pointed out, who has he pointed out?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry I thought you had recorded that.  He point out Mr Ntsebeza.

CHAIRPERSON: No all I've got is that he pointed out somebody in an orange top, I can't see from here.
	Sorry Mr Ntsebeza.  Thank you very much.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So you are saying you were just focusing on the Committee all this time, you haven't looked around?  Is that the reason why you never noticed Mr Ntsebeza here since yesterday?

MR SIBAYA: I don't know his name.  I thought he looked similar to that man.  (The witness was pointing to Advocate Sandi).  I did not see him here prior to now.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So the person you saw that evening, you alleged you saw, draws similarities to Advocate Sandi and to Mr Ntsebeza, is that what you are saying?

MR SIBAYA: I could mistake Mr Ntsebeza for Advocate Sandi, however, when looking very closely then I see the difference, but if I am not looking closely at them I could mix them up.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Could it be that you are mixing them up with the person that you saw that night, that you claim you saw?

MR SIBAYA: These two men look similar, I don't know, maybe they are related.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The question is do they - have you pointed them out because they look similar to the person you saw that evening, that's the question?

MR SIBAYA: Listen to me carefully Sir.  This one here - (the witness is pointing to Advocate Sandi) - looks a lot like Mr Ntsebeza.

INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the answer please.

MR SIBAYA: I was saying when I first look at Advocate Sandi I could say that he is the man who was there that night.  He looks a lot like Mr Ntsebeza.  I don't know whether I am mistaken but I think it was Mr Ntsebeza who was there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Are you absolutely sure?

MR SIBAYA: Sure about what?

NORMAN ARENDSE: About whether it was Mr Ntsebeza that night?

MR SIBAYA: I don't know the name, I know the face.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now Mr Sibaya I want to put it to you that not only are you mistaken but I want to put it to you that you have been put up to this.  You have been instructed or told by someone to point to Mr Ntsebeza and I will tell you why I am saying that.  You saw, you allege you saw his motor vehicle, you are very clear on the registration number.  We all know, the public knows that for some time now Mr Ntsebeza's name was linked to that motor vehicle.  You were very clear that you saw this person, in fact you pointed him out today.  I find it very strange that the police could not come up with a photograph of Mr Ntsebeza, a very well-known person who has appeared on television, his photograph has appeared in the newspaper, I find it very strange that someone as able as I know the late Mr Segal, did not put that photograph in front of you and ask you to identify the person in the photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: To put it shortly you are being asked, it's being put to you that Mr Segal is the man who has suggested that you must say that it was Mr Ntsebeza who was in the car that night.  Isn't that the point of your question>