Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, MK cadres who found themselves in those communities, always acted within the political structure and guidance of those community structures, so they were not imposing themselves on those communities.
	They were part and parcel of the members of those various communities.  They did not give themselves authority of being a know all, but they were part of those communities.

MS THABETE: What I am actually asking as well is, maybe let me make an illustration of this point, we have had applicants coming to in front of the Committee saying that, MK cadres saying that well, the communities came to me, they would say they had information about somebody, that somebody was a police informer or they were told by the community that somebody was acting against the ANC in the community.
	Would it be in order for such MK cadres to make a decision by themselves to assassinate such people in the community?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, as I have pointed out, MK had no other specific instructions other than to act within the ambit of those community structures where Self Defence Units took place.
	If those were the instructions of the community, that means that MK cadre was acting within the authority of that community.

MS THABETE: Okay, so in a situation where let's say the community didn't say anything to the cadre, but that cadre saw fit that somebody had to be assassinated, wouldn't he have to consult maybe with your region before he made such a decision?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, not at all.

MS THABETE: He had the right to just make such a decision and carry it out?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: As part of that community, but there won't be any instruction from the leadership of the ANC or MK do this or do that.

MR LAX: I think just to clarify this, the question is really where the person didn't have the authority of the community, they hadn't consulted the community at all and we have heard one or two instances to that effect, across the political spectrum, but let's deal with MK cadres at this instance.
	An MK cadre situates himself or get situated in a particular community, he may have been busy setting up an SDU structure in that community, he notices a problem in that area.  Without consulting anybody, he simply goes and assassinates somebody.  Would that have been appropriate conduct from an MK cadre in the circumstances?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I think each case must be looked in accordance with its own merits, so if under these circumstances a reasonable community would have acted in the same way, I think the reasonable man test should apply.
	I think if a similar person under these circumstances would have done the same within the circumstances, then it could be justified.
	But the point I was trying to make, is that there were no specific instructions that were given exclusively to MK to do this or that.  They always have to see themselves as part of that community structures.

MR LAX: The thrust of my question is really that it would have been extraordinary circumstances that would have entailed somebody acting without informing communities or seeking guidance from the community structures that they were part of?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: In a practical situation I would guess because I don't know where you come from, but living in Natal of the time, this place was in flames.
	As I have indicated, almost every Saturday I used to bury comrades, so if people are under severe attack, they will do things that normally would not have been done.  I would think that there are many things that happened in Natal which many of us would like to forget, but it was the reality of the time that people were forced with.  Extraordinary circumstances were imposed upon them, so they did things that were not that normal.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MS THABETE: When you established the SDU's, did you foresee the intervention of a criminal element in the communities?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I never foresaw that, but as it transpired, some people who were claiming to be SDU's, were sheer criminals.  Where we were involved as ANC an MK, whenever those excesses took place, we immediately took steps to discipline those comrades and more particularly to disarm them.
	It is possible that others, as we can see that in many instances, communities used to buy the arms.  Where they bought them from, I wouldn't know.  Others were trafficking in arms we were made to believe in this region.

MS THABETE: Actually that was my next question to you.  In your evidence earlier on you had said that if you did discover that there were people who were criminals but using the SDU's, you would disarm them.  Were there any other disciplinary measures taken against such people besides disarming them?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: That was the most appropriate disciplinary form.  If you disarm a person, I think it was adequate for our purposes, because neither would we report that to the police.  The police being the very same people who were the cause of our troubles in kwaZulu Natal.

MS THABETE: So in essence you are saying there were no other disciplinary measures you adopted, besides disarming them?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, that was the main form of discipline.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further questions?

MS THABETE: Yes, if you would bear with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be an opportune time to take the tea adjournment?

MS THABETE: I've just got three more questions, then that is it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

MS THABETE: On page 14 of the bundle, of your application ...

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I don't have page 14.

CHAIRPERSON: It is page 6 of your attachment to the application, the appendix, page 6.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Okay.

MS THABETE: You talk about a decision that was taken to retrieve as many weapons as possible.  Who took that decision?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: That decision was taken by military Headquarters when the process of reconciliation and the merger with the Defence Force was taken, so that we don't leave a lot of arms in the hands of the people who now had a Defence Force who was now going to look after the interest of our people.
	That decision we received from military Headquarters and it was carried out successfully in my opinion.

MS THABETE: And then my last question, on page 7 of your application, paragraph 20, you talk about the introduction of better forms of policing that were introduced in the province to try and curtail violence and deal with violence.  Can you give us a few examples?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I must say despite the fact that the police and the army were horrible against our people, but there were individuals within those forces who were very sympathetic to our cause.
	I can mention for an example Colonel Lawrence who was ever ready to assist us whenever violence broke out, so there was a section within the police and the army that were prepared to assist our people, but the majority unfortunately were on the other side of destruction and harassment of our people.

MS THABETE: Okay, my last question, you say you received reports on events that were happening in the communities.  Can you just mention a few maybe where people were injured or people died?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Can you repeat the question, I am sorry.

MS THABETE: In your evidence you say that you would get reports from the communities of what was happening with the
SDU's, so my question to you is would you give like specific examples of reports that you would get where people were injured, like specific examples?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I wouldn't have specific examples, but I do know for example that in Port Shepstone there was a time when there were problems there and we had to address a meeting there with John Kadimeng and Harry Gwala where some people who were claiming to be Self Defence Units, were not doing proper things.
	I can recall that particular incident.