Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MR VAN DEN BERG: Andrew Kirk was called.  Can I just by way of - before we return to this, just out of curiosity, why did you want Mr Kirk to come to the house?  I see in your affidavit at paragraph 14 you say towards the end of the sentence
"Another woman was on the phone and we told her to tell the person she was talking to, to come to the house."
Why did you do that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That was said by my commander.  The commander said he got this woman speaking on the phone and directed her to tell the person to come to the scene.  That is the commander who said that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you know the reason?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes he called him so that we could also tie him as one of the settlers.  We wanted him to be part of the victims.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If I can return you to page 47, it says
"Andrew Kirk was called.  He arrived at the Stanton home during the course of the robbery.  He was also taken captive, tied up and his watch taken."

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: "There was a threat to kill the child, Timothy, who, as he and Mrs Andrew Kirk puts it, was "knocked around a bit".
Do you see that?  And subsequently tied up, do you recall that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now this child was asleep at the time when you arrived at the home?  Is that correct?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yet you woke him, knocked him around a bit and tied him up?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We were not joking, we were on a mission.  We woke him up, we tied him up.  We knew what we were doing, we knew exactly what we were doing.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The purpose of this mission was also to recover firearms?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes we wanted guns but couldn't get hold of guns, we repossessed whatever we could lay our hands on.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you have information that there were guns at the Stanton household?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: The commander told us that he had some information to that effect.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now I put it to you and if it's necessary, I will call one of the members of the Stanton household to testify, there were no guns at that household, there were no firearms whatsoever?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes, we did not get any guns, we searched the place but we couldn't get any.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, are you a person who watches television?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You're an APLA cadre you say and do you keep yourself up to date with what is happening in the news and what is happening in the country?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Sometimes I do watch the news, sometimes I don't and as a member of APLA, I have to watch the T.V. so that I can update myself with the current affairs.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you read newspapers?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you in bundle B to page 8 and 9 of the bundle?  Do you see that?  It's a newspaper cutting of the 2nd November 1993.  Mr Chairperson, it appears to be an extract from The Citizen but I cannot confirm that but there is written, you'll see in the second column, C.I.T., these clippings are all extracts from the clipping service at the Star and it appears to be a clipping from The Citizen on the 2nd November 1993.

ADV MOTATA: But what is written there, Mr van den Berg, S.A. African PAC, what would that be, is that clippings from The Star or from those people?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Honourable Committee Member, the clippings are filed by way of files and by way of subject headings and so this would have been filed under a file entitled "South African Political Movements - PAC" is where it was extracted from.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you see the press clipping Mr Nkabinde?  It's entitled "Moratorium on Violence" and sub-titled "PAC, APLA and Government Agree" and if you look at the first column of the story, it's says the following
"Harare - the South African Government and Pan Africanist Congress and it's armed wing The Azanian Peoples Liberation Army reach broad agreement at a meeting yesterday on the need for the cessation of violence."
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BB2ERG: It goes on to say
"A joint statement said that further meetings would have to be held to put a peace pact into operation but both sides agreed it was 'necessary to place a moratorium on violence'".
If I can refer you to a further press clipping on page 10, this is a press clipping also of the 2nd November 1993, it's an extract from The Star of that date.  Mr Chairperson, I think that yours will be cut and all you will have on yours is "Government/APL" the rest of the heading reads "Government/APLA Breakthrough"
Do you see that Mr Nkabinde?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And there it says
"The Azanian Peoples Liberation Army (APLA) yesterday agreed it would declare a cease fire depending on the outcome of further negotiations with the South African Government."
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If you look down at the second paragraph under the word "moratorium" a joint statement said
"Both sides believed that we had a duty to do everything within our power to stop violence and hostilities in our countries."
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It carries on and I'll read it to you ...(intervention)

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We as members of APLA were not aware of this, we take instructions or orders from people in authority.  We do not go around taking whatever is written in newspapers and act upon them.  This is a press clipping, it's got absolutely no bearing on me and my actions what I have to do or refrain from doing.  What is written here could be written or reported by anyone and he could report selectively if he wanted to, so I take instructions from my commander or people in authority, I do not take any instructions from newspapers clippings.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm going to continue reading from this extract, Mr Nkabinde.  It said
"Both parties realised that discussions to address relations between the Government and the PAC/APLA could not take place in an atmosphere of violence.  It is therefore necessary to place a moratorium on violence.  Both parties will refer these viewpoints to their principals with a view to arranging urgent talks to avoid violence, the statement said."
Can I refer you to a further press clipping?  It's on page 12 of the bundle.  Again, Mr Chairperson, I think that it may be cut off in the copy that you have.  The heading is "APLA to Lay" and that is probably as far as your clipping goes.  It's "APLA to Lay down Arms".  I can make available the copies I extracted from the library if the Chairperson so requires.  This is a press clipping of the 17th January 1994 and reads as follows:
"The Pan Africanist Congress has suspended it's armed struggle which has seen a recent escalation of attacks on whites by alleged operatives of the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army.  PAC President, Clarence Makwetu, told a Johannesburg press conference yesterday that the APLA leadership had begun informing cadres throughout the country of the decision."
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.  As I've already pointed out that they were still liaising with the press, they had not yet spoken to us in that regard.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So you say these decisions made by the PAC and made by APLA had no bearing on you whatsoever?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I did not say that.  I said we do not take instructions from press clippings, we take instructions from our commanders.  If there was a specific instruction that we should place a moratorium on violence or forget about the armed struggle, newspapers can report anything, journalists can report whatever they want to, whether it's true or not so we could not depend on press clippings or newspaper reports for our instructions.