Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-01

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  For the record I'm the Judge Ronnie Pillay.  I'm going to ask my colleagues on the panel to announce themselves for purpose of the record and so to the different representatives.

JUDGE POTGIETER: My name is Denzil Potgieter.

ADV SIBANYONI: My name is J B Sibanyoni, a Member of the Committee.

MR MBANDAZAYO: My name is Lunga Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter.  Thank you Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee, thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, may I call the application of Lungo Nkumanda, amnesty application number 3347/96.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me, Chairperson, before the proceedings commence Chairperson, I would like to place on record that the victims in this matter in particular the next-of-kin of the late Norman Beaton, the next-of-kin's name is Cyril Beaton, was served with a notice of this hearing personally by our investigator on the 19th October 1999 and we have not heard from them as to whether they are interested in attending to the hearing.  We have got other interested persons who were can I say victims in the robbery incidents.  Those are Mr Mela Williams and Mrs Cheryl Voldyn.  Nobody was injured in that incident.  But they have been notified as interested persons, they have indicated that they have no objection in the granting of amnesty in this matter.  So to the extent that the next-of-kin of the late Mr Beaton may be interested, I'm going to take it up on myself to take care of their interests.  In the circumstances Chairperson, I would move that we proceed with the hearing.  Thank you sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, before the applicant is sworn in I would like to bring to the attention of the Committee that the affidavits which are in the bundle are not signed, the original is with me which is signed and I'll hand over to the Committee after we have finished this.  The signed one is with me Chairperson.  Can then, Chairperson and Honourable Members the applicant be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkumanda, what language would you prefer to use?

INTERPRETER: The applicant will use Xhosa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.
	Mr Nkumanda, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Members of the Committee.  Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?

MR NKUMANDA: Yes I confirm that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I will proceed and read the affidavit for the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can lead him from the affidavit?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, if that's the feeling of the Committee that it won't be necessary to read then I'll ask him just to explain a few aspects in the affidavit.
Chairperson, I'll then turn to paragraph 10 of the affidavit.  	"The order of this operation was given by Kleintjie who was the regional commander.  The reconnaissance was done by ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Please slow down, we don't have the copy of the affidavit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: "The order of this operation was given by Kleintjie who was the regional commander.  The reconnaissance was done by myself.  This operation was carried out by myself as commander and Comrade Zozo."
Now Mr Nkumanda, can you then tell in your own words the Committee how was this order given by Kleintjie and how did you go about doing the reconnaissance of the target?

MR NKUMANDA: Thank you Chairperson.  I met Kleintjie two weeks before the operation and he told me that there was an operation that I was supposed to carry out and there's a shortage of guns.  He told me that there are Brito vehicles that deliver the bread in the township and he even explained the route that they normally use.  On my own I monitored this Brito because they would use the Jakisa route through New Brighton.  He used to go to Sangoti.  Thus we targeted that place because it was very dark in the morning when they delivered.  My reconnaissance took six to seven days.  I used to monitor it daily in the morning whilst they were delivering the bread from Monday to Saturday and the following Monday.  	After having monitored this I went back to Kleintjie where we met in number 74 in Agrie and I gave him the details as to how many occupants were normally in the car and what route they normally used.  He said that was correct, that's how he knew and we will see each other at a later stage.
	On the evening before the mission he arrived again.  He went there and found that they were carrying a 7.65 mm firearm which was fully loaded and he handed me that pistol and he gave me two knives as well.  He instructed me to go and fetch that firearm so that the Africans must be liberated and he gave me a hug which a norm and thus we parted.
	As time went on at about 10 o'clock Zozo arrived.  We were just discussing about the operation because he was already aware about the operation during the week.  We slept and woke up the following morning and we proceeded to Sangoti.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened when you arrived at Sangoti?

MR NKUMANDA: Early in the morning we went past the square using some foot paths to Sangoti and we waited across the street opposite this house.  Our target arrived as we'd expected with four occupants inside it.  It was the driver, a security guard and two van boys.  Three alighted the vehicle which was the security guard and the two van boys.  The security guard took cover and the two van boys proceeded to open the back of the van.  They took out the bread into the house where they were during the delivery.  At that moment we emerged and approached the security guard.  I was carrying this 7.65 mm gun and Zozo was armed with a knife.  I produced the firearm and I told him in Afrikaans that "I want your firearm".  He said to me that he does not have it.  Zozo advanced, approached him and went for his waist because he could see that he was actually having a firearm on his waistline.  There was a quarrel between them and he wanted to reach out for his firearm, he wanted to draw it and I told Zozo to give way and I shot him once.  He ran away down Sangoti.  We crossed the street and we just ran the opposite direction following him until he entered another house.
	On our arrival at that house I instructed Zozo to wait at the gate for security reasons and I could see him lying on his back.  I went stealthily towards him and I found that he was still having his firearm.  I took that firearm and the ammunition, I retreated and we went back with Zozo to our normal meeting place which was number 74 Agrie Street. 
	Thereafter, we went our separate ways, me and Zozo. Later during the day at about 7 - 8 in the evening Kleintjie arrived and I gave him the report about the operation.  Thereafter I handed him over the 7.65 that he had given to me earlier on and a round of ammunition plus the .38 revolver that we had taken from the security and we parted.  That is the role that I played in this operation, your Honour.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I don't know whether the Committee would like me to cover both incidents before the question?  Thank you Chairperson.
	Now let's proceed to paragraph 13 regarding the second ...(indistinct) incident.  Can you again, Mr Nkumanda, tell the Committee your role you played, how did you go about, how did you identify these places, the target and give the Committee the details of the incident there because all of were not there you were the only person who was there?