Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair it's very difficult for me to react to this. I do not know to what they were exposed but I can testify about my exposure. I visited all the JMS's, I visited most of them but I never heard this kind of language, this forceful language you are referring to. The fact of the matter and the centre of the matter was something completely different. At the JMS's I accept you refer to their focus was on social and welfare terrains. The police and the defence force did not use these words. But if you want start referring to certain words like "elimination" and "neutralising" and such words, if you call these words strident, I would have to agree.

MR VAN ZYL: Regard these words as "klagdadig" and I quote from speeches that you yourself delivered in the house of assemblies. 28th of May 1985, Hansard, column 6378 to 9: "It is the RSA's policy to put it's case and defend and safeguard itself offensively with all the might at it's disposal against any form of foreign aggression or internal revolution, whatever the source." First quote.
 Second quote. 29th of May 1985, house of assemblies; "Let me place it clearly on record once again that the ANC and it's fellow travellers are constantly threatening our security in this country. I want to make it clear again. I make no apology for doing so. That we shall do everything possible to sniff out and locate the ANC and take action against them wherever they may be. We shall look for them wherever and however we like." 
 Then at a speech reported in the Cape Times on the 10th of December 1985: "The SADF will not hesitate to root out terrorists wherever they may be. Whether it's in South West Africa, the northern Transvaal or our residential areas or city."
 Then on the 4th of February 1986 in the house of assembly, Hansard, column 162 continuing: "The security forces will hammer them wherever they find them. What I am saying is the policy of the government. We shall not sit here with our hands folded waiting for them to cross the borders. We shall settle the hash of those terrorists, the fellow travellers and those who help them."
 Would regard that as "klagdadig" language?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair, the question that you asked me, as I recall you refer to the security forces. I never spoke about the politicians, you are now referring to politicians. I will answer the politicians if you want to. I do not think that Mr Botha, Vlok and the others was that involved with the security forces when there were strong words used but if you want to refer to the politicians, yes. The politicians as a corpus did use this kind of word. It was general terminology used.
 In my submission which I gave on 7 May I refer to this kind of situation. All the speeches you have now quoted I have quoted myself. I tried to show to the Truth Commission that, that was the kind language that I used. I checked and I said that this was also the language used by the ANC and the people at grassroots level could have had problems with them. I want to give this to you in an objective way. I want to put it you now in this way. That's why I say we will have to recall the realism of that time. What was the circumstances when these words were used. 
 Last night you quoted parts to me that you found in your research regarding acts that were committed across the border and words that I would have used. I gathered from that, that you were looking for a connection between my words and cross-border operations. I think you are making a gross miscalculation there. What you should have done was to go and take the statistics that I have given to you in the first submission. And I would like to quote from it. It is a much better version of what happened during that time. 
 I refer to page 28 A paragraph 103 A: "of targets. In 1981 attacks against hard military targets comprised 80 percent of the total. By 1986," and we talking about the mid-eighties, "however attacks against soft targets," that's in other words civilians, "comprised 80.7 percent of the attacks."
 Then we go to the statistic breakdown of the terrorist attempts. In C on page 29, September '84 to April '92. Unrest related incidents 8507. Persons injured during unrest related incidents; 18061. Persons killed during unrest related incidents; 9280. Death or injury through burning in unrest related incidents, September '84 to December '89, death by necklace methods; 406, injured by necklace method; 28, death by other burnings; 395, injured by other burnings; 150. 
 Mr Chair this is not finished yet. If we look at the Defence Force's submission of the 8th of October this year to the Truth Commission. On his chapter, chapter 3 he gives you all the incidences during the shorter or longer periods and he then says how many schools were burned down, what the damages were, houses burned down, etc., etc. I think it is a very important factor. My speeches to me and those incidences were much more correlating than other incidences that you have now put to me. 
 But now I will have to continue with the facet of the speeches I have delivered that you have referred to. Most of them were made in parliament. There were approximately let's say 150 members, I can't remember exactly but those are members of parliament. There were various opposition parties as well. We did not agree on policy, there was much criticism but nobody criticised this in parliament, this what was said at the stage because under those circumstances it was possible to use those words. There was a privilege in parliament. I had no problem with it. I would have said this outside parliament as well because that was government policy and it comes from strategies of government. 
 The oppositions had the same privilege if they wanted to object to that they could have done it. I would like to put it to you in this way. All the MP's agreed with that. That was the situation in the country at that stage if you want to use that from my speeches do get a balanced view thereof. Atrocities on the one side and atrocities on the other side. 
 I read a very interesting article in the Cape Times this morning I would like to point you to it. It was written in the Cape Times this morning regarding the Truth Commission's task. It is their task to investigate both sides and to adjudicate justly. Especially with regards to the amnesty applications heard recently. The impression that I have gained was that this paper is questioning the Truth Commission's actions. I am not doing that, I am trying to help you. Just look at this in a balanced way.

MR VAN ZYL: precisely why I went through the introduction that I did, talking about the tremendous deteriorating security situation in the country was an attempt to acknowledge the very real situation in which you acted. In the first part of your response you indicated that members on the ground, security force members on the ground and I think the words you used would have a problem with what you were saying. What did you mean by that?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I don't know, what are you referring to now?

MR VAN ZYL: Let me formulate the question this way. Would you agree that language like this that you used in parliament, particularly in response to the gruesome acts that were occurring and being carried out by terrorists at that time in South Africa, language that you used could have been interpreted by members on the ground to authorise illegal activity?