Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-22

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I've enjoyed two Xmas' in jail, that is two years.

MR BERGER: So the last time that you were detained was in 1996?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: When you were introduced or when you found out that the policeman who had taken you from your room in the hostel was Sergeant Peens, you say that he asked you lots of questions about Getisi.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And he promised you money and he promised you a house.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: If you gave evidence against Getisi.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: What made you remember that this is Sergeant Peens?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is the one who wanted me to help him so that Getisi would be convicted or do his work which he wanted me to do.  I would not forget that kind of a person because he was doing this which were unusual.

MR BERGER: The policeman?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, the things which he was saying to me were unusual.  I will not forget him.

MR BERGER: Now Getisi died on the 10th of July 1993, so I take it the records will show that you were arrested on or about the 8th of July 1993, am I right, Mr Magubane?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, they would show.

MR BERGER: And you were detained at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Isn't it so that you knew Sergeant Peens long before July 1993 and you knew Sergeant Peens already in June of 1992?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, that is not true, that is not true.

MR BERGER: And isn't is so that you in fact were in a caspir with Sergeant Peens, moving into Boipatong on the night of the 17th of June 1992?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is not true.

MR BERGER: Do you say that you don't know Shaka and you don't know Rooikop?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Two policemen?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: But you do know Gatchene, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I know Gatchene.

MR BERGER: And you do know Themba Kubeka.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: And Lucky Stekenyao.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: And Sipho Lukhozi.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: And Sipho Buthelezi.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: And Makuka.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: And Tsamo.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: Who is Tsamo?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's not present here and he was not being, he was one of our friends who came from the township and he was not an accused in this case.

MR BERGER: What is his name?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't know his full names, I only know Tsamo.

MR BERGER: But he lived in KwaMadala hostel.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is he still alive?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you know Makeze.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Do you mean Mkhize?

MR BERGER: Makeze.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't know Makeze, I know Mkhize.

MR BERGER: And Dondo.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: And all the people that I've mentioned, except for Makeze were present and participated in the attack on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct, except Makeze, whom I do not know.

MR BERGER: Is it correct, Mr Kubeka, Mr Magubane, I beg your pardon, that after your parents' house in Sharpeville was burnt, they moved to Boipatong and they were living in Boipatong in June of 1992?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that on the night of the massacre your parents were living in Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And that they continued to live in Boipatong after the massacre?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Even now they are still in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Even now.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Are they living in the same house that they lived in when they moved to Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I would not know as to whether they're still at the same place because they are living in the informal settlement, but I know that they are still in Boipatong, but I don't know as to whether it is the same yard or the same place.

MR BERGER: When you say the informal settlement, are you saying that they live in the Slovo Park section of Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: They are staying in Sondela.  I don't know as to whether it's Chris Hani or what but we know it as Sondela.

MR BERGER: Do you know what street they were living in?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, because it's an informal settlement the streets don't have names.

MR BERGER: Were you not afraid that your parents could be killed during the attack on Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I was afraid that my parents would be dead but under the circumstances there was nothing I could do because they dissociated themselves from me.  Even if I would be killed before them or if, they wouldn't do anything.  I didn't have a choice or be afraid when we were going to kill people, that they will be killed also.

MR BERGER: So would I be correct to say that you recognised the possibility before the attack that your parents might get killed in the attack but you carried on with the attack regardless?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: On that day I did not concentrate or I didn't think as to whether they would be killed or not.  The situation was tense and I was looking what would happen to me if I don't take part.

MR BERGER: But you wanted to take part in the attack, didn't you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I took part in the attack at Boipatong.  If my parents were killed I could have taken part in their killing.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you would have taken part in the killing of your parents?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, as I took part in the general attack of Boipatong, which means if they were killed I would also be responsible because I also took part in the general attack.

MR BERGER: And when ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Berger, just on this aspect.
	Do you know  why your parents' house was burnt down?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I received a message that my parents' house was burnt because I was a member of the IFP.  That is why - because they claimed that people who killed people in that area in Sharpeville, it was alleged that they were people from KwaMadala hostel.  Then from there the people in Sharpeville went to burn my parents' house.

ADV SIGODI: At the time that your parents' house was burnt, where were you staying?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was at KwaMadala hostel at that time.

ADV SIGODI: Because I thought from your evidence you said you went to stay in KwaMadala because your parents' house was burnt down.  Now are you telling us that when it was burnt down you were already staying at KwaMadala?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I was in KwaMadala hostel.  My parents' house was burnt whilst I was in prison because it was alleged that I killed people in Sharpeville.  Then at that time, in 1991, my parents' house was burnt.  I was in KwaMadala hostel at that time.

ADV SIGODI: And your parents were not politically active, were they?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, they didn't play a role in politics.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee yesterday that you didn't care who you killed because you wanted to kill everyone, is that right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And so you shot at everybody, you shot at men, women and children.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.