Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only occasion on which you heard gunfire whilst you were waiting at the bridge?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Nofomela.  Mr Cornelius, any questions?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	You obviously didn't testify at the inquest?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And you didn't supply a statement to the Special Investigation Team of the Attorney-General's office?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: When did you join Vlakplaas?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: In 1980, December.

MR CORNELIUS: So you were there for six years?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Of the white members of Vlakplaas, who can you recall, names?  During that period of 1986.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I remember Dirk Coetzee, Jan Coetzee, Cronje.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Van Dyk, Vermeulen, Bosch.  I cannot remember the others, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Frank McCarter?  Can you recall the name Frank McCarter?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: During 1986 anyway, you knew Vermeulen?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am referring to Koos Vermeulen, he was a Station Commander at Bronkhorstspruit.

MR CORNELIUS: Oh.  Did you know N J Vermeulen, known as "Snor" Vermeulen?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I do remember him.

MR CORNELIUS: Is he in this hearing today?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It has been a long time, I cannot identify him now.  I am not sure whether he is in here.

MR CORNELIUS: Fine.  Did you previously, before this Chesterville incident, participate in any operations or projects of Vlakplaas?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have operational experience?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, some of them, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Do you know why Vlakplaas was requested by Durban Security to come to Natal?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I did not know that.  Even today I still do not know that.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.  You say in your evidence-in-chief, you speculated that they normally go to taxi ranks and stations to look for terrorists.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that was their routine, that is what I knew.

MR CORNELIUS: You didn't come down from Vlakplaas to kill terrorists, it was purely to infiltrate?  Or didn't you know at all what the object was?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not understand your question, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Fine.  But you didn't know what the object was of coming to Natal?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was not requested to do that, I was just given an instruction.  They couldn't go and fetch me specifically to tell me that you should come and be involved in something here, without going via de Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: Now the talk to infiltrate the UDF, you didn't personally hear that, that is purely from hearsay?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I heard de Kock telling the people who were involved in the Chesterville incident.  Which one was a hearsay?  I do not understand your question.

MR CORNELIUS: Fine.  Were you present in the room when instructions were given how to infiltrate the UDF?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I was present, but I was present when this infiltration was mentioned.

MR CORNELIUS: Was it in a room at CR Swart Police Station, where was it?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It is the place where we were sleeping, that is CR Swart.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.  Was it in a conference hall, was it in an office, where was it?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It was a big room.  I am not sure whether it was a conference hall or what, but we were sleeping in that particular room.

MR CORNELIUS: So this meeting was held where everybody was sleeping, in the bedroom?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, as I've already explained that, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: And who was given instructions to infiltrate?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said Mr de Kock mentioned that, telling the people who were supposed to go there.

MR CORNELIUS: Who?  Give me names.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Simon Radebe, Tandi Shosha, Susan Moekwena, I cannot remember the other one.  And the other people whose names I cannot remember.

MR CORNELIUS: And obviously there were no white members involved at all?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: There was Nortje and the others whose names I cannot remember also.

MR CORNELIUS: Nortje you say.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What job did de Kock have for you?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was with him, I was his driver, I was driving the car that he was in.

MR CORNELIUS: But you say that day had another job for you.  Can you remember what the job was?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Not on that particular day.  He said there was another mission that I should be involved in, that was myself and Geoffrey Bosigo.  He did not want us to be involved in that Chesterville mission because there was another mission for us.

MR CORNELIUS: So why were you present at this meeting?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I just found myself in there, in that room, while he was telling these people.  He did not order me to go out, he just came and talked.

MR CORNELIUS: Now the way you gave your evidence-in-chief, it seems that there was a report-back that the infiltration was successful and then a second operation launched, is that correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Did this all happen on the same day?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I cannot say, I think there was two to three days difference, it did not take place in one day.

MR CORNELIUS: But why can't you say?  The evidence that I will lead from Mr Vermeulen will testify that this all happened in one night.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is what he remembers and that is what I can remember.  What I'm saying is actually what I can remember.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, well I want to find out if you're telling us the truth.  Did this happen in a day or did it happen in two to three days?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As I've already explained, that is what I can remember, it did not take place in one day.

MR CORNELIUS: But you cannot deny if Vermeulen and Nortje and Bosch would testify and say that this happened in one night, the infiltration and the second operation.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot dispute that, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: And I cannot admit that because I cannot remember that.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.  Then you must testify before the Committee and say you cannot remember.  Now the evidence would be that an order was given that an infiltration should take place and that the comrades then wanted a showpiece in the form an AK47, to see that they were true MK cadres ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, will the speaker repeat the question.

MR CORNELIUS: Sorry I've got to repeat the question.  You see, my client will testify that you were not at the scene at the bridge.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Cornelius, can I just ask you to complete that first phrase that you were busy with when the interpreter asked you to repeat it.  You say that the comrades wanted a showpiece in the form of an AK47, to test the bona fides if the infiltrators.  Would that be right?

MR CORNELIUS: Correct, Mr Chair.  Well let me complete that question just for proper sequence.  My client will testify that the comrades wanted a showpiece in the form of an AK47, and that is why the AK47 was given to Simon Radebe.  Can you comment on that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I can say it comes to me as a surprise it it's put that way because from Vlakplaas, this AK47 was from Vlakplaas up to Durban. I do not understand how did they know that these comrades were going to need this AK47, so that these people can take it all the way from Vlakplaas up to Durban.

MR CORNELIUS: Tell us about the AK47, who drew the AK47 at Vlakplaas?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know, but I know that there were AK47 rifles in Vlakplaas and even this one was coming from Vlakplaas.  That is what I think.