Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: A standard detonator is an uncontrolled detonator which would lead to an uncontrolled detonation.  It is a steel wire which is influenced by temperature and various other factors which would lead to an uncontrolled explosion.  The mechanism which was attached to this was a controlled mechanism which we would have control over with regard to time and so forth.

MR VAN ECK: Was there any accuracy in terms of time control in detonation with a standard detonator?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: Was this subject to variables?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Were you told why a different detonator was going to be used?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Because it had to be a controlled detonation.

MR VAN ECK: Can you recall who said this to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr van Zyl, among others, as well as Mr Basson.

MR VAN ECK: Did Mr Burger have any input into this?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not that I can recall except that he approved the project.  I didn't ask any questions.  By nature of the situation I accepted that it was approved and that was his major share.

MR LAX: Sorry, why did it have to be a controlled detonation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It had to take place at a specific time.

MR LAX: Did you know why, what was the object of that?  Did you know?  If you didn't know then say so, but if ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At a later stage Mr van Zyl informed me that a meeting would be taking place and that the exclusive purpose of the project would be to disrupt and damage the structure and that fatalities were not a foreseen consequence.

MR VAN ECK: Thank you Mr Lax.  You as a demolitions expert had to have realised that that sort of mine could bring about loss of life and damage.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, by nature of the situation, although to establish loss of life, in my opinion, another device would have had to be used.

MR VAN ECK: What would you have used?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There are various types, this is speculative, but there are car bombs which were available.  There were also black widow limpet mines, there were various other options.  A limpet per se causes shockwaves and I don't mean that this will not cause loss of life but the shrapnel and everything else related to it is not the ideal mine to use if you want to kill people.

MR VAN ECK: What sort of shrapnel effect would a limpet mine have?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The parts of the structure in which it was placed would be affected by the shrapnel, but the shrapnel attached to the device itself is limited.

MR VAN ECK: You saw the mine and then you took it into your possession?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Was the detonator tested in Johannesburg?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes it was.

MR VAN ECK: How did you test it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: By means of a fake charge it was detonated.  Which would not necessarily detonate the device itself but the principles were the same.

MR VAN ECK: Did it work?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: And did you and Mr van Zyl depart for the Cape then?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Can you recall what your movements in the Cape were?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: Can you tell us.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We arrived in Cape Town and went directly to his brother-in-law's apartment where we rested.  We met Isgak Hardien at the airport.

MR VAN ECK: If we could just pause for a moment.  Did you know Isgak Hardien?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I didn't.

MR VAN ECK: Were you informed what his background was?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In broad terms, yes.  We met him at the airport where I put the limpet mine in his boot.  After I had activated it and that is all up to that point.

MR VAN ECK: What happened with the placement?

MR LAX: Sorry, when you say you "activated" it, what did you actually do?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Most probably a better word would be "I armed it".

MR VAN ECK: Could you then explain briefly what this means, what you have just told us?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I attached the detonation mechanism to the limpet mine basically to prepare it to activate, to explode.

MR VAN ECK: So the activation doesn't mean that it had been set off already?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is why I used the English "armed".

MR VAN ECK: So these were just final preparations?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And subsequently?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We bought the bags, we put the mine into the bags and placed it in the boot of the car and Mr van Zyl gave certain instructions to Mr Hardien which he executed, and he placed the bomb in the place where Mr van Zyl told him to place it.

MR VAN ECK: Did you ever enter the hall personally?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have any input in saying where the bomb should be placed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not, seeing that you were the expert?  Because we know that Mr van Zyl was a layman when it came to mines, weren't you asked what would be the best place - should it be close to the wall; should it be away from the wall; should it be high up; should it be low down, that sort of detail?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I expected the question.  The in-house was conducted on a very thorough level and I could not deviate from what the plan was at that stage.  I was led by the approval which was given and I don't believe that Mr van Zyl would have wanted to deviate from that.

MR VAN ECK: Just in conjunction with that, was it at all possible for you to walk about inside the hall and to find a suitable place yourself?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: You said that the bomb had been placed, you departed, what happened then?

MR LAX: Sorry, before you go there.  Do I understand from your evidence you were present at the in-house and that you heard that kind of detail or did you just arrive there afterwards?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Lax the in-house was at a different stage that it took place.  This was only the handing over of the limpet mine at the Protea Gardens Hotel, so I did not take part in the in-house itself.  They just told me how it worked and the rest of the information, but I was not part of the planning in terms of the placing of the limpet mine.

MR LAX: So do I gather then that you didn't know where it was supposed to be placed and you relied in Van Zyl to follow whatever he had been told?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr van Eck.

MR VAN ECK: Thank you Mr Lax.  Did you at that stage have any reason to question that what came before or what was done before?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: They mentioned to you that the bomb had to be placed to your left, Hardien was picked up at a later stage and you returned to the cell.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did Mr van Zyl give any instructions to Hardien to see if there were any people in the cell, what was the position?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He asked to go and see if there were people ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just correct something that's going on in the interpretation.  The Interpreter is talking about the cell, it's in fact the hall.

MR VAN ECK: Yes, "saal"

MR LAX: Hall, the Afrikaans is "saal" in English "hall".

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter apologises.

MR VAN ECK: Did you go and look at the hall to see if it was empty or not?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He gave me the instruction to go and look, yes, what the situation was in the hall.  Mr Hardien came out and said some of the managing members or committee members from the Kewtown Youth members were still busy with a meeting and we continued with the observation at the scene.

MR VAN ECK: At that stage was there any reason for you to question the actions of Mr van Zyl or Hardien who formed part of the in-house meeting?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir.