Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa only fired at you once and shot you through the knee, is that what you're saying?

CHAIRPERSON: He's not saying that.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: He's saying it was Mr Hlasa who shot him in the knee.  He wouldn't know whether among those other seven shots Mr Hlasa also shot, so don't put as if he said Hlasa shot him only once and never again.  He's not saying that.

MR TLOUBATLA: I misunderstood him Mr Chairman, I'm sorry.  Right, except Hlasa who shot at you, any other person that you recall who shot at you?

SIMON MORRIS: It was Hlasa, Mphoreng and the other person, I don't know who this person was.

MR TLOUBATLA: This place where you were shot at ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just on that aspect.  You say you don't know the other person who shot you?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Is it because you cannot remember or is it because ... (intervention)

SIMON MORRIS: It's because he's not here.

ADV SIGODI: But if were to be shown to you, you'd be able to remember him?

SIMON MORRIS: I think I would.

ADV SIGODI: Because I think it's easier for you to remember Hlasa and Mphoreng because they are here?

SIMON MORRIS: No.

ADV SIGODI: Why particularly the two of them?

SIMON MORRIS: Hlasa was the first one who apprehended us at Orlando East, who used the firearm.  The other two were following behind, the two applicants, the other two applicants and when we entered the house of maybe the so-called Jefferson Lingani, I don't know the person whether it' the right name, he was also the one who was having a gun in his hand forcing us to enter the house so I cannot forget that person.

ADV SIGODI: That is Hlasa the first applicant.  No I'm just asking about the third person whom you do not seem to be able to remember.  Why is it that you cannot remember him?

SIMON MORRIS: We were shot by three people and the other person stayed at the car.

ADV SIGODI: What role did he play?

SIMON MORRIS: Who?

ADV SIGODI: The third person.

SIMON MORRIS: The third person.  I have no knowledge of the role that he played.

ADV SIGODI: So is it easier to remember the roles that the two applicant's played because they are here and then you cannot remember the role that the other person played because he is not here?

SIMON MORRIS: No Maam you must remember that when I tried to turn, because I was facing that way, the first bullet went into the right knee, the second one I tried to block and then when I tried to move, to move my head because I was feeling pain, I could not see that person.

ADV SIGODI: Ja but I mean he was also part of the group that was torturing you throughout the day, wasn't he?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And for people who had been torturing you maybe you could have even picked up their names?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And you don't forget such an incident, don't you?  So what I want to know is who is this third person, why is it not easy for you to remember the third person if he also took part in torturing you?

SIMON MORRIS: I don't know his name, I just don't know his name because Hlasa was the first one who shot the first shot ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: If Hlasa was not here, would you have been able to remember his name?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Why particularly?

SIMON MORRIS: Because he was the one who came out of the passage and said:  (indistinct), give me a cigarette and we said we are not smoking.

ADV SIGODI: Okay.

MR MALAN: You're so sure that you would have remembered Mr Hlasa's name, but in the beginning of your testimony you couldn't remember his name, you referred to him as Hlese and it was asked?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes I said it was Hlasa or Hlese, that's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: This names, the first applicant we know now is Joseph Hlasa and the second applicant is Mphoreng.  When did you know their names?

SIMON MORRIS: During the interrogation they would then call each other because the other name which cropped up during the interrogation it was the one of Kabelo, I don't know (indistinct) and also Pitso.  Even the one of Joseph.

CHAIRPERSON: The one of the people that you can't remember, was it not Pitso, was it not Kabelo, it wasn't one of those?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Morris do you know who's Pitso?

SIMON MORRIS: Pitso I think is the second person.

MR TLOUBATLA: Who is that?

SIMON MORRIS: Who is it, no Pitso I think is Joseph, it's Hlasa, Joseph.

MR TLOUBATLA: Are you certain?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes, I'm certain.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right.  You know basically you are correct by saying Pitso is Mr Hlasa but I picked the fact that you're just simply guessing on names?

SIMON MORRIS: No sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: Now because you say, you mentioned that during the interrogation or during the time when you were making statements the name of Pitso, the name of Hlasa, the name of whoever came out as often as all that.  (indistinct) you were making a difference between Hlasa and Pitso.  Do you initially it was not the same person?

SIMON MORRIS: No.

MR TLOUBATLA: It triggered now that after I had asked you the question?

SIMON MORRIS: No, I don't confuse their names, no.

MR TLOUBATLA: Right, and I'll tell you that you didn't pick up the name of Hlasa in, when they were taking there, definitely it's not possible because even in their statement, if you could look at the statements, ... (intervention)

SIMON MORRIS: I don't have their statements.

MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, they refer to him as Pitso, that is among his friends he's known as Pitso and even in the statement they mentioned the name Pitso, so you couldn't have picked the name Hlasa from their conversation.

SIMON MORRIS: If my memory is serving me correctly, I think I could have picked out the wrong name but my memory serves me well.

MR TLOUBATLA: You are just simply referring to him now simply because he's here in front of you, that's basically what it is.  I put it to you that in that situation where there are so many people, you are under such tremendous torture, definitely your memory, you vision, everything is impaired so terribly that you are bound to confuse not only faces but names as well.

SIMON MORRIS: But there are things that you cannot forget.  There are things that you cannot forget.

MR TLOUBATLA: Just lastly, just to wind up the questioning.  This place where you were shot.  How well lit was it?

SIMON MORRIS: It was dark.

MR TLOUBATLA: Very dark isn't it?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: And you are able, in that darkness, to see that Pitso is firing a shot at me, Mphoreng is also firing a shot at me and how do you do that?  How do you manage that?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes I said earlier on that I tried to move the face and even the first shot I was looking at the person but I could not feel whether I was shot or not because I was told to sleep after being shot, the first shot so when moving I tried to move and then when I tried to block the bullet with my hand, that is when I can say I see this person, I can identify this person.

MR TLOUBATLA: The point where they were standing and the point where you were sitting, how far I mean what's the distance?

SIMON MORRIS: Is it possible to demonstrate it to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Listen, just a minute.  Mr Tloubatla unless you tell us the importance and the relevance of this question, I'm not going to allow that question because your client's don't deny that they shot these people, except Mr Thandakubona who says he wasn't there and as far as I can recall, this witness so far hasn't said that Mr Thandakubona was there.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.