Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Let me assist here.  Like Mr Ngo stated that he is applying for amnesty with respect to the people who were assaulted at Botshabelo, did he mention or did he specify in his amnesty application that he is applying with respect to the people he assaulted at Botshabelo and at Bloemfontein or in Bloemfontein?

MR VISSER: The answer to that and please pay attention to how I answer your question is yes.  Now, Mr Motsamai, I don't know what the difficulty is.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I applied for amnesty for people that were at Botshabelo, the people that we assaulted here at Bloemfontein.  At Botshabelo I didn't assault anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, he said in his application Bundle A, page 34, that you were one of the members of the Security Branch Bloemfontein, who participated personally and physically in the beating and torturing all those comrades and he listed  12 people whom he says were there, including you.
	You say you did not take part?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Were they assaulted at Botshabelo?

CHAIRPERSON: At Botshabelo, Botshabelo police station.  They were assaulted with plastic sjamboks, he gave great details in his application and the injuries they suffered to their private parts and he set it all out.  Did you take part in that assault?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I didn't take part there in the people who were held there at Botshabelo, they would come here and state that I assaulted nobody there.  Maybe he saw me there when I went to collect these people because when we went there and ordered, they know that they also take part.
	You wouldn't know who was beating who, unless you would see that person grabbing the other one, taking him in the room and sjamboking him or assaulting him.  They would come and explain here.  It is not that I didn't apply for amnesty because I was involved there, but they would come here and explain I did nothing.

MR VISSER: Yes, well, let me just put to you that Mr Memani, who is Mr Ngo's counsel and who is also your counsel, led that evidence quite clearly that we are talking about attacks and assaults at Botshabelo and I am not suggesting to you Mr Motsamai, that I am referring to anybody that was brought from Botshabelo to Bloemfontein.
	We are very specific about it as was Mr Ngo when his counsel led him in evidence in chief, it was an assault and torture at Botshabelo.  Now my question to you is this, why does Ngo implicate you innocently in this affair of assault and torture, grievous torture of people at Botshabelo do you think?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I have already answered, I do not know why he would do such a thing.  He saw me there, but I do not know why he said I assaulted people.  That is why I stand on that point that those people would come and testify that I never assaulted them.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, in all fairness to these two applicants, in the description of the assault of these people at Botshabelo, there is no reference to Motsamai and at the end the names of officers who would have been present, include the name of this witness.  And this witness says that Mr Ngo would have said that I was present, because I was amongst the people who fetched these people at Botshabelo.

CHAIRPERSON: But in his application he says he took part, participated personally and physically in the beating and torturing of all these comrades and names Mr Motsamai.
	At page 35, he gave the names of some of the comrades who were assaulted and at the bottom of page 35 he gave the names of other policemen who took part, participated in this matter of assault.  So I don't understand how you can say he doesn't mention Motsamai.

ADV MEMANI: I withdraw the suggestion Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: I really do feel that I must place something on record here, Mr Chairman.  It is difficult enough for the cross-examiner to keep matters together and to make sense before a court or a Commission of his cross-examination because normally as you know very well, as an old practitioner Mr Chairman, it is difficult.
	And every time that I am interrupted, unnecessarily, one looses the whole threat of what you are busy with, with great respect.  I would suggest with respect that my learned friend restrains himself a little bit and just thinks before he leaps next time, when he wishes to make an application or make an objection.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you objection will be noted Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: I think you must also be warned not to be rude with me again.  I am taking these things personally and it will go there if you persist.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a threat of some sort Mr Memani?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I ask for a short adjournment please, I am too upset to go on now.

CHAIRPERSON: It is four o'clock now and I understand Mr Visser, that you would welcome an adjournment at this stage for you to get an opportunity to finally peruse the papers and settle and decide if there are any specific questions you wish to raise with the applicant?

MR VISSER: That is so Mr Chairman, and I would appreciate it, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that if we follow that course, we may in fact be saving time that other wise you might feel you have to put matters that need not be put.
	Mr Stander, I understand it is your intention to make affidavits from the persons you represent, available prior to calling them?

MR STANDER: That is in fact so My Lord.  I have been preparing the statements, I have handed them to my colleagues, all of them, I will be handing three sets of them to you.  The only problem I am experiencing is that some of my clients which statements have been prepared, unfortunately did not turn up today, so I will be giving you those statements as soon as they sign it, I will be giving it to you, but in the meantime I have prepared the list of it, with the index, and as soon as they have been completed and properly signed, I will be giving it to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you.  I think we have had a long and a tiring day, and I understand counsel are operating under pressure and I think it would be in the interest of all if we take the adjournment at this stage.  We will adjourn till nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

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