Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No we did not grow up together, I was seeing him actually for the first time that day.  I was explaining that I remember him, I saw him that day, I was seeing him for the first time in Jeff's bedroom, I was just explaining how I met him for the first time now that I'm seeing him again today.  We did not grow up together.

CHAIRPERSON: I need to understand that what you're actually conveying was that at that time the two of you were still young
and still growing up, not necessarily that you said that you grew up with him and I think it didn't come quite clearly to me, but anyway I understand you now.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman no further questions, that is it.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR AMEEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The note I have on your evidence in chief was that when you arrived at Glen's house, you became aware that these people were to be killed.  Do I make a correct note or not?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I said when I heard for the first time that these people were going to be killed, I discovered this when I arrived at Jeff's place meeting him at the door.  When we went to Glen's place I had this knowledge already.

MR BRINK: Do you know who gave the order that these people should be killed?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Comrade Sam told me when I arrived at Jeff's place.

MR BRINK: But you didn't take part in the planning of these murders?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No I did not take part in the planning.

MR BRINK: And apart from the torture of these men you were merely a passive participant, so to speak, in the further conduct of the operation?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I would not say I did not assault them as much because they were really injured that day, we assaulted them badly, I too was present.  In some instances however I would not be there during the assault.  This does not mean that I would not do it if I were present.

MR BRINK: Now I understand you're being frank enough to say you took part in the assaults, but you had absolutely nothing to do with the planning or the execution of the murders?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know how it came about that police arrested you, who gave your name to the police?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: It was Jeff, he brought police where I was sleeping.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you then accused of having taken part in the murder?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: We were charged, all of us equally.

ADV BOSMAN: With murder?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you not surprised because you hadn't participated in the murder?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: When we made our statements I indicated to the police but he indicated to me that I was telling a lie, I was going to testify in court and he then wrote down what charges he wrote.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know why Sam and Tamee's names were not mentioned to the police?  Let me just put it differently.  Do you know whether to whom you referred as comrade Sam and comrade Tamee, do you know whether their names were mentioned to the police?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: We refused to give their names to the police, it was not easy to divulge such names to the police.  These were prominent names in the organisation.

ADV BOSMAN: But all the other members who were not leaders, their names were mentioned.  Is that right or can't you say?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Jeff was the first person to be arrested and then he gave these names to the police and we too were arrested and that was the end of it, we did not give the police any other name.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was, was there somebody in the name of Sam amongst you, other than Sam Siema.  Was there another Sam?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No.

MR MALAN: Why was Sam and Tamee's name not given to the police but Glen's name indeed was given?  Sorry I understand you
as saying that Sam and Tamee's name weren't given to the police because it wasn't easy to divulge the prominent members in the organisation.  Is that what you said?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I am saying that we did not identify their hideout to the police.

MR MALAN: But you did identify Glen's place to the police?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Glen's name came up because the survivors had already indicated to the police that they were taken from Orlando West to Shawella where they were finally shot.  The police wanted to know the one house to which we went to Shawella.

MR MALAN: But weren't they blindfolded according to your testimony?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I have indicated earlier on that the first car left with the first group and I do not know whether the first group was blindfolded or not but during my presence I still remember one person blindfolded from the house right into the boot of the car.

MR MALAN: But you were very adamant that Mr Kgase was blindfolded there that he couldn't have seen when he was taken to the house of Glen.  Is that correct?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No not that he was blindfolded, I'm saying I did see someone blindfolded, that is if you still remember very well.  I said I saw him for the first time in the bedroom during the day.

MR MALAN: Mr Ameen put it to you that he will give evidence that he was taken from Glen's house to the scene of the execution in the Renault, not in the Renault but in the Chev and the Mazda, they were taken in those two cars and you responded that he could not have seen because he was blindfolded.  Isn't that correct?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No.

MR MALAN: Then let me just taken two other matters.  The issue of the use of the Renault to take them to the scene where they were killed.  Wasn't the Chev used to take them from Jeff's house to Glen's house?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes the Chevrolet was used from Jeff's place to Glen's place.

MR MALAN: And you gave evidence that it wasn't used from Glen's place to the scene of the killing because it had a problem with the pressure plate.  Is that correct?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes I did say that, that they did not use the Chevrolet from Glen's place to the scene of murder.

MR MALAN: And then just one other question.  On the evidence it's seems as if these youths were apprehended somewhere between two and three o'clock in the afternoon and that they were being kept and assaulted and tortured to somewhere between seven and eight, in evidence before us.  That's on average about five hours, could be less but on all evidence it seems not be less than about three to four hours.  All the time of which they were assaulted according to the evidence.  Now why did this continue for so long?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I don't know.  I think because there is an exaggeration of time here because I remember they arrived at Jeff's place at round about three in the afternoon and they then left for Shawella, not around seven, it was dusking, it was shortly after dusk.  It was August at the time and the sun would set sooner than in summer.  Yes they were assaulted for a long time, that's correct, we wanted information from them.

MR MALAN: And the information that you did get from them, when did you get it from them, early in the assault, late in the assault, in the middle of the assault.  After you had the information did you keep on assaulting them?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: If I still remember very well, before Kabelo and myself went to fetch the car in town the interrogation had already been completed and that was round about five in the afternoon.  We had to rush to town because the closing time at the place where we were supposed to pick up the car was half past five.

MR MALAN: So are you saying that at five o'clock there was no further assault, since five o'clock till they were taken to comrade Glen's house?