Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And that was after or during the Bahai Faith trial, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was indeed during that time of the Bahai trial.

MS COLLETT: Now, are you satisified that you have made full disclosure - sorry, is it correct that you submitted to the TRC a supplementary affidavit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Supplemented, what do you mean, I cannot understand the question well.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that you made an additional affidavit to the Truth Commission after you had submitted those initial amnesty applciations?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now why did you make that supplementary affidavit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was because in my first applications I knew that they weren't telling the truth, that is the reason why there was a lot of conflict between ourselves and our initial attorney who was supposed to represent us, Mr Ntonga and Mbandazayo and even with the TRC we had a lot of conflict
because they would not agree with the way we were putting the truth forward, that is why they withdraw from representing us, they told us they would not represent us.

MS COLLETT: The information contained in the supplementary affidavit, is this the information that, as far as you are concerned, is the truth and that you wanted the TRC to see to support your amnesty application?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

ADV SANDI: Mr Ncamazana, can I just ask you a few questions to understand the causes, the factors that led to your getting involved in all the activities you have outlined both yesterday and today.
	The other purpose of the questions I will be asking you is to find out from you your thinking, your motives and perspectives for having been involved in all the actions you have told us.
	Now, to start with, you say you were 18 in 1994 and were you attending school?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I stopped schooling in 1993, in the middle of 1993.

ADV SANDI: Why did you stop schooling?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was because I was going to join APLA.

ADV SANDI: Were you making any progress at school, that is before you left school to join APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, there was.

ADV SANDI: Did you ever get in trouble with the authorities at school?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I had no trouble at school.

ADV SANDI: Generally speaking, would you say your parents took any particular interest in your schooling activities?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, very much so.

ADV SANDI: I would take it that you were staying together with your parents, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I stayed with them, yes.

ADV SANDI: Where are your parents at the moment?  Are they here to give you some moral support?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, they are present now.

ADV SANDI: Were your parents aware that you were involved with the PAC and APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot lie to you that they knew but they could see my friends, that when we are at home perhaps staying at the back house talking about politics.

ADV SANDI: How would you say you were getting on with your parents, would you say you were getting on very well, there were no problems about you not being able to obey the parental authority?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, no such thing ever happened, that I would be disobedient or there would be problems of misunderstandings.

ADV SANDI: You have mentioned quite a number of youths who were involved in APLA, generally speaking would you say these were more or less the same age as you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Which people?

ADV SANDI: You've mentioned people like Luvuyo, TNT, Kid and a whole lot of others.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: They were not my age group, I was the youngest amongst them all.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that there was no other person within the groups you were interacting with, a person who was of the same age as you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I don't remember that there was any of such age as myself that is.

ADV SANDI: In conclusion Mr Ncamazana, we are now about to come to the end of your testimony before this Committee in support of your application for amnesty, are you satisfied that you a have answered all questions that have been asked of you frankly and honestly?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV SANDI: There has been no inhibiting factor on your part such as the fact of loyalty to those who were your commanders at the time in question?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated, I do not understand it.

ADV SANDI: Let me put the question in a slightly different way.  Are you still loyal to your former commanders?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I do not know about that, it is they who can say whether they still trust me or not.

ADV SANDI: I do not know how the interpreter has put this to you, do you consider yourself as having any duty towards your former commanders?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

ADV SANDI: Speaking here today before this Committee and making an application for amnesty, do you feel that you owe your commanders anything?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I do not owe them anything.

ADV SANDI: You have - perhaps at the risk of repetition, you have not felt yourself inhibited, constrained in any way by the relationship between yourself and your commanders?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: How contrained, can you explain that?

ADV SANDI: Maybe I should accept that you have answered the question.  Now, coming to the end, would my impression of you be correct or incorrect, that you are a person who was readily prepared to carry out any instruction without questioning?  Is that impression on my part correct or incorrect?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is so.

ADV SANDI: Is that perhaps because, as you've just said, you were the youngest person amongst all the people you have told us about?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much Mr Ncamazana, I think that's the end of my questions.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.
	One question you didn't answer that Advocate Corlett asked you was  "Did your unit have different compositions for different operations"? and you went on to say "Well we did lots of different operations", that was in fact your answer, you didn't answer the question properly.  What is your answer to that question?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What we did we did as a unit.

MR LAX: So it was - and who was the unit, just tell us again?  Yourself?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Myself, the late Africa TNT, the late Africa Luvuyo, Tona.

MR LAX: Was that it?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The late Africa TNT, Kid, Tona, Djobane.

MR LAX: And of course yourself.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Myself that is.

MR LAX: Who else was at your base?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Which base?

MR LAX: You only had one base, that base was at Butterworth.  You've referred to it as your base, the place where you did your training and the place you went to stay after your missions and between your missions.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We were not staying together alone there, we were quite a number of people being trained there.

MR LAX: Were those people part of your unit or were they part of other units?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: They were not part of our unit.

MR LAX: What was your unit's code name?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember well what our code name was.

MR LAX: But you were only in one unit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes.

MR LAX: You would have used that code name all the time.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I was at that unit that time we were supposed to go and attack.  At the base we are not one unit, we get united or integrated with others.

MR LAX: So your unit was disolved when you got back to the base, is that what you're saying?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Did memebers of your unit carry out other operations with members of, with the other members from that base?