Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't know, you know you get an intelligence unit which is - there's more than one intelligence gathering unit, there's an intelligence gathering section which is completely divorced from the Security Branch, they don't even sit in the same offices.  I don't know if you're referring to that or you're referring to people, Security Branch members that just gathered intelligence.  I don't know, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Well in Bloemfontein, was he working in a section similar to yours in Ladybrand?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, they had their own section, they had a section that dealt just with askaris.

MR LAX: Just for clarification's sake, was this same section, for example, that operated similar to the one that say, operated in Durban with Col Andy Taylor, where they would use askaris to identify MK or PAC people that they may have met or known from exile or training, and capture them?  In other words, the job of those kinds of askaris was to identify people, make contact with them and capture them.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, the capturing part I'm not so sure of, Chairperson.  I don't think it would have been left to these askaris, there weren't many here to capture people.  They'd probably have to identify and find out where they were and so forth.  The first part of what you asked is correct.

MR LAX: Well then they may have then brought in a specialised unit like Vlakplaas or someone else, to do that.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	You made use of Kadi in your section in Ladybrand.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We could have made use of him, I can't remember specific incidents making ... none come to mind, but it's possible.

MR MALINDI: And according to his statement his very familiar with names of the people who were working in your unit, including the fact that Thulo was known as Koki.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: He was known to everybody as Koki, that's correct.

MR LAX: Just while we're there, so that would hardly have been a cover name for him, to be called Koki, in Lesotho, I mean that's his name.  It would have been easily identifiable that way.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's so, Chairperson, I'm not going to deny that, but he's was known as Koki to everybody.  Everybody knew him as Koki.

MR LAX: But the point being that's it's hardly a cover name.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I don't suppose it is a cover name, I agree with you.

MR LAX: And the same as Jagga calling himself Tony, in Lesotho, I mean it's using his own name.  Again, it's ...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I think if I can remember correctly, Chairperson, he was known as Tony Montana or something like that, that's what he told the Court.  I'm not sure if it is correct, it's just my best recollection.

MR LAX: Yes, but again it's - ja, if someone was to say to someone else: "Do you know that big chap, Tony, from Ladybrand" you know, "who works in the police?"  Who would they think of?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, amongst police people and so on he's known as Toon, not Tony.  He's Afrikaans speaking, he's known as Toon.  Antonie is his name and everybody refers to him as Toon, not Tony.

MR LAX: But even so, it wouldn't be too hard to put two and two together.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It depends on who it is, ja.

MR LAX: Carry on, Mr Malindi.  Sorry.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	At paragraph 6 of his statement which appears from page 42 onwards ...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Paragraph 6?

MR MALINDI: Paragraph 6.  He states that he was interrogated by Jantjie, Thulo and Capt Fouche in 1986, are you aware of that incident?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I only arrived in Ladybrand in July 1986, so I wouldn't be aware of this.

MR MALINDI: And at paragraph 7 he says he was used to identify ANC members and houses, and you've just confirmed that askaris will be used for that purpose.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: After recruiting Betty Boom and other members of her cell and Mbulelo Ngono, why didn't you use them for the same purpose, instead of sending them to Lesotho, especially knowing that there were suspicions already around Betty Boom?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We were of the opinion that they would be more valuable to us in Lesotho itself, giving up to date information about ANC activities.

MR MALINDI: And at paragraph 7 on page 43, he says that Jantjie, Thulo, Robertshaw and Fouche were involved in the kidnap of Mageta.  Do you know of that incident?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, that is a blatant lie, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Well let's see, are you saying you were not involved in that incident?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I was not involved in that incident, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Do you know if the others that are mentioned in paragraph 7, were involved in the incident or not?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I've got no knowledge of this incident whatsoever.

MR MALINDI: Do you know Mageta, his other name was Old Timer?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I've heard of him, I don't know him personally.

MR MALINDI: Was he ever at Ladybrand?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Not to my knowledge.

MR MALINDI: Thank you.

MR LAX: Let me just clarify, were you making that assumption?  It may in fact not be the same person at all, we don't know for a hundred percent sure, because ...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Which same person?  Sorry, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well we don't know whether this Mageta here that's being referred to as the ANC Chief Representative, is the same person as Old Timer.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: He had the nickname of Old Timer, they used to refer to him sometimes as Old Timer.

MR LAX: So it is the same person?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: There can be more Magetas with the nickname Old Timer.

MR LAX: Well as someone involved in information gathering you would have certainly been aware who the Chief Representative of the ANC in Lesotho was.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And was it a man called Mageta?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And was it that man, did he have a nickname or a nom de geurre maybe, as Old Timer?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, as far as I can remember he had a nickname Old Timer, yes.

MR LAX: Yes, so then we're not confused at all, we are talking about the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, let me clear this up with Mr Robertshaw.  When you arrived at Ladybrand in July 1986, did you start this unit from scratch or was there a unit in Ladybrand?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, the word unit, it sounds ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I mean section, I know you prefer section, let's call it section, I'm conscious of that.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: If I could perhaps - could I elucidate a bit, I don't want to waste the time of the Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, certainly.