Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: I will ask the question for the last time.  Were you upset by his behaviour?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, his behaviour did not really anger me or upset me.  We did endeavour to get information from him and at that time it appeared to us that we were not going to get the information from him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you at that time try to persuade him that you were not upset;  you just wanted to facilitate the performance of your duty and ask him to please sit down?

MR SNYMAN: The idea had not - was not that he was going to be allowed to sit down.  He was going to stand while the interrogation was in process.

GEORGE BIZOS: You told us yesterday that you couldn't tell us how big this room was, 619.  We went there yesterday and it's a room hardly bigger than four by five metres.  Would you agree with that?

MR SNYMAN: That might be the case, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: It was an ideal interrogation room from the point of view of not being interrupted and not being detected for any crimes that may be committed within it, because it did not have any door to any passage.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: It was enclosed by 621, which was a much larger room and 617, which was smaller than 621, but a little larger than 617.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: There was no access to 619 unless you went through either 621 or 617?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: It was also a room hidden at the back of the building, overlooking a small yard.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That might be correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why might it not be correct?

MR SNYMAN: I am not saying that it is not correct, but as you know I had been in that building only a very long time ago.

GEORGE BIZOS: That would have been even more - more helpful to you to say whether what I put to you, was correct or not.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand by a gesture made by my learned friend that he has a plan.  If that would be the case, could we have a look at it and consider whether we should put it in as an exhibit?
COMMITTEE MEMBERS VIEW THE PLAN AND DISCUSS IT QUIETLY

GEORGE BIZOS: The plan that is tendered here is not what we saw and we are instructed by Mr Jones that it is not what he knew at the time.  So I will not hand it in.  My learned friend can have a look at it and do whatever he wants to do with it.	During interrogations in room 619, where the doors of 617 and 621 kept closed?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: The two doors leading from 619 to 617 and 621, were they kept closed during interrogations?

MR SNYMAN: That is possible, your Honour, but I cannot recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, generally speaking, in view of the highly sensitive matter that you dealt with and also as a cover up for any unlawful activities that you may have wanted to perform in that room, you would not leave doors open or ajar for passers by to hear screams or to hear protests or even perhaps to hear the information that was being imparted, do you?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, that had not been the idea.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, why was such a little hole at the back of the building comparatively speaking chosen as the interrogation room?  Four by five at most for a table, a chair, a filing cabinet, four or five interrogators and the detainee?
	Why was that room chosen for this purpose?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, that room was always used for interrogation.

GEORGE BIZOS: That was the only room that was used for interrogation?

MR SNYMAN: To the best of my knowledge, yes, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question was, why did you choose such a comparative small hole in order to do your job?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, that was the office in which interrogations were carried out with all other detainees.

GEORGE BIZOS: All the more reason;  why?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: Any answer?

MR SNYMAN: Could you please repeat your question, I did not clearly hear it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why was this particular little room, so isolated from the rest of the world, chosen as the room at which all interrogations were to take place?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, that was the office used by the section which dealt with Black issues or Black matters.  It was common usage to use that room for that purpose.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot offer a reason for that practice.

GEORGE BIZOS: May I suggest one to you: so that the screams of your
victims could not be heard.

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And where you felt confident that the detainees that you interrogated were completely helpless.

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, that is not the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was Mr Beneke in that room from the time of the arrival of Mr Biko in it to the time that he was picked up from the chair and told that he was not allowed to sit?  Was Mr Beneke in that room?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, he was not present in the room throughout since he had not been a member of the investigative team.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh!  Where was his office?

MR SNYMAN: It was one of the offices in that area, but I cannot recall exactly which one of these offices.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it 617 or 621, the two adjoining offices of 619?

MR SNYMAN: It might possibly be one of these, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You don't remember where his office was.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, this was not my section and I was not exactly sure where these people were placed, but I would presume that it was one of these offices.  My office was on the 5th floor.  The 6th floor was not my everyday office.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who were the people - what was the job of the people
in their offices around 619 and 617?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, these were all of the persons who dealt with Black matters.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Did Mr Beneke have no - nothing to do with the interrogation of Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you in Exhibit C1 - did you say
"Maj Snyman reports that on 7/9/77 at about 07:00 in the morning, he, Capt Siebert and Warrant-Officer Beneke interrogated detainee Bantu Steven Biko at the security branch offices in the Sanlam Building."

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it had probably been the time when Warrant-Officer Beneke came in to assist us when we were involved in the scuffle with Mr Biko.  He was in one of the adjoining offices at that time.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, you now say that Mr Beneke's entry was by chance.  He had nothing to do with the interrogation.  Why did you in your handwriting make an entry on the 7th saying that he, you and Siebert were to interrogate him?

MR SNYMAN: That would probably have been an oversight on my part when I made the entry into the occurrences book, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: But why did you say that he was part of the interrogation team?

MR SNYMAN: He was not a member of the interrogation team, but he was involved in the scuffle or the fight that morning of the 7th.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question, is why do you now say he was not, when you wrote down on the morning of the 8th that he was?	Have you any explanation for that?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Isn't it because you are trying to assist him by keeping him out of this as far as you possibly can?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now please tell us in your own words what happened after Mr Siebert had picked him up?  What happened then?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, when Capt Siebert plucked him from the chair and when he punched at Capt Siebert, a fight ensued.  The noise was heard by Warrant-Officer Beneke, who then entered the room to assist.  He then shouldered the detainee in his stomach.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's take it step-by-step.  You say that Mr Biko punched Mr Siebert.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

UNKNOWN: With respect, he said he punched at him, M'Lord.