Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MR POTGIETER: Right.  So the indictment is that your men were never redeployed to cater for this changed situation and that left the defence force who only had lethal weapons on them, they didn't have weapons of crowd control because they are not trained for that, your men were trained for that, so it left the Ciskean Defence Force people to cater for this situation and the Police were nowhere to be found.  And in fact, just to finish it off, what you are holding out EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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today as a positive thing, the fact that your men didn't fire one shot, was seen by them as an indictment because your men had the means of crowd control, you could have fired teargas or whatever.  So they are really saying that you should have been doing, you should be upfront, you should have been upfront there.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: But Sir ...(intervention)

MR POTGIETER: Ciskean Police then.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: We were upfront where we expected the problems, we were there.  And as I have explained we were about 45 or 50 men, not even that, and as I have explained right in the beginning in my memo, that we had responsibilities all over Ciskei, we couldn't bring in all the policemen from all the stations then I think maybe it wouldn't have been just Bisho being taken over but maybe the whole of Ciskei, so we couldn't bring in all the policemen to deal with this problem on that day of the march.  And that is why I explained here we only had the Riot Unit.  And as I have tried to explain Sir, whatever my CDF colleagues might say now we were there right upfront where we expected the problem, but when things changed, I can assure you Sir it's quite a few hundred metres where the people ran through the stadium on the other side, and then if we had to withdraw all our people, I did explain to the Commission that I asked Major Simms to send a few men to see what is going to happen there, these people running not into the stadium but going past, and as far as I am concerned he did send men there.  But we couldn't redeploy Sir, we couldn't redeploy.  We were up here.

MR POTGIETER: Well that's the point you see, that is the point, you  left  the  command  in  the  hands of two
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subordinates.  The Ciskean Defence Force brings this indictment against the Police.  It's common cause, it's quite clear that the Police couldn't ...(tape ends)
...situation where you have the main road blocked off and nobody gets across the Ciskean border and you were catering for that situation.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is correct, as I have said that was our responsibility.

MR POTGIETER: And the minute when it changed, when permission was granted by the magistrate and this whole scenario changed there was nobody who was in a position to take control of the police and redeploy them, and what I want to suggest to you is that you were the most experienced member of the Ciskean Police, more than 44 years of experience, and if anybody you would have been the person to have taken charge of the Police and to have catered for this changed situation.  But you can't really tell us, you say that, well the other two made the arrangements with the CDF and that's why you didn't get involved.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No, no, no Sir that is not the question.  You have asked me now, at the scene there when the scenario changed why didn't I take charge.  Now I have told you in evidence here that things happened so quickly.  Sir, I don't think it was a question of minutes after these people ran past that I heard the shots.  I don't think it was a question of minutes.  And I did, when I saw these people running past and not going into the stadium, and I've also given that evidence here, I said to Major Simms send some officers and men to go around and see what's going on, and as I have said we all believed that the people will go into the stadium, because that is what the magistrate said, they
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can go into the stadium.  So I am not trying to run away from my responsibilities, not at all.  Maybe I am just more loyal than some of my CDF colleagues.

MR POTGIETER: Maybe.  I had intervened in the questioning just to round off the point, I know there are some more questions.  Let's go to Reverend Finca first, he hasn't had an opportunity yet.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you very much Chairperson. General Viktor your message, I must confess, your message to those who are victims and to the families of those people who died in Bisho has been one of the most outrageous I've listened to since beginning this inquiry, where your message to them is that you have absolutely no comment to make on compassion but they must choose their leaders carefully.  I would like to take that statement and just put it back to you again in a different context.  I note that it's a political statement and you have been avoiding being drawn into political statements, but you have made this one, would you think that the people who marched to Bisho that day had a right to say to Brigadier Gqozo we no longer want you to be our leader, and they had a legitimate right to march to Bisho to express that position?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Mr Chairperson first of all, I don't want to try and be clever here giving evidence, you said the Ciskean people, I am convinced, let me take Mr Kasrils, he's not a Ciskean, you said the Ciskean people had the right to come and say Oupa Gqozo we don't want you anymore, and I think many of the other leaders there they were not Ciskean people.  And again Sir I am not going to be drawn into any political arguments here, whether the South African Government saw fit to create this state of Ciskei is none of EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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my concern Sir.  But I do feel, as a police officer, once a magistrate has made an order then I do feel that even the Ciskean people should have adhered thereto.  There was a magistrate's order and as I have said when a request came to me and said ban this march I refused, I refused.  So I did have some trust in the leaders of the march that they would adhere to a magistrate's order and go into the stadium.  What the rights Sir, of the people of Ciskei or the other marchers, we know of course people have the right to protest, then again I say if there's an order and the order says this is how you can go about with your protest then I expect from responsible people, responsible leaders to adhere to that too.

BONGANI FINCA: I find it very strange that when it suits you you are not drawn into making political statements.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That's correct.

BONGANI FINCA: When it's convenient to you you make political statements.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Well I don't know what political statement I have made Sir.

BONGANI FINCA: I find that very, very strange.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: What political statement did I make Sir?

BONGANI FINCA: This choosing your leaders carefully.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No that's not a political ...(intervention)

BONGANI FINCA: That's definitely a political statement.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That's not a political statement Sir, that's not a political statement.

BONGANI FINCA: Let's just take that to Gqozo, why should the people who were marching that day not have a right to march to Bisho to register a protest against a leader that they have not chosen?
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JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I think Sir the protest wasn't just about marching to Bisho, the object of the march was to occupy Bisho and to tell Gqozo to get out.

BONGANI FINCA: What's wrong with that?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That was the object of the march.

BONGANI FINCA: What's wrong with it?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Sir that is for you to decide, not for me.