Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: After we had returned to the farm and had burnt the clothes, the vehicle of Ndaba - of Shabalala, was taken out of the garage.  We drove, myself and Wasserman, drove in the vehicle to a place on the other side of Verulam.  We then parked the vehicle on a dump site.  We then doused the vehicle with petrol and we burned the vehicle out.

MR VISSER: Did you first search the vehicle before you did this?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You're also applying for amnesty for housebreaking, the intention to steal and theft.  What is this related to?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: During the time that we detained Shabalala, he pointed safe houses out to us.  We went into these safe houses and we removed certain documents from there.

MR VISSER: Just to make it clear in the one case did you have keys for one or both of these safe houses?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We did have keys.

CHAIRPERSON: He said Shabalala pointed out the houses?

MR VISSER: No he started saying Shabalala then he corrected himself by saying no, Ndaba.
	Who told you about these safe houses, Mr du Preez?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Ndaba.

MR VISSER: And you just spoke of the fact that you had keys for one or both of the houses?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We had keys for a flat, I think it was the Impala Flat if I remember correctly but going into the flat was not with the permission of the lessee or the owner.

MR VISSER: You did not have permission to go into the flat?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now the other safe house, how did you get in there?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We picked the lock and we went into the place.

MR VISSER: And at these two places did you take anything away from there?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We took documents from these places.

MR VISSER: You are then applying for any lesser offence or delict that might flow from the facts, is this true?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Then lastly, on the day when you had arrested Mr Nyanda ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, this taking suspected terrorist documents from a safe house, is that a criminal offence?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, we agonised about that question and really we don't know.  In fact Chairperson, so much so that I have already prepared a little argument to you about what your duties should be in that regard.  You know what Commissioner de Jager's viewpoints are, one must specify the offences or the delicts and I was going to argue to you Chairperson if appropriate that what you really need to do is to give amnesty for any offence or delict committed on in regard to this incident and that would cut out all of these arguments.

CHAIRPERSON: So we'll leave it if you're aware of the fact that we'll deal with it later then?

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, we actually had the same situation as far as one of the witnesses was concerned in the Quarry Road as well and you no doubt heard about the Northern Transvaal problem which we had which was so close to self defence that the Committee really didn't know which way to go and neither did we, what to say.  So it is a problem, it is a problem yes, Chairperson.
	The only thing I still want to ask you, do you know or do you not know who Mr Nyanda or Mr Gordon was arrested first on that day?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I'm sure it was Mr Nyanda and after we had arrested Mr Nyanda we gave a radio message that he had been arrested and that the other persons and that the other people then had to concentrate on the other placed that were known.

MR VISSER: Did you also have information at that stage about the identities of other people that were involved with operation Vula?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you remember who you had been aware of, at the 12th July who had been involved with Vula?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, concerning Durban there had been quite a few persons.  Names such as Gordon, Patel and a few others.

MR VISSER: How many people did you arrest on the 12th according to what you can remember, approximately?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think there was approximately 12.

MR VISSER: And there were also other people in other places?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: That you were aware of that Mr Ndaba pointed out?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR VISSER

MS POSWA: Mr du Preez, what position were you in vis-a-vis Mr Botha, was he your senior?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What rank were you then?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think I was a lieutenant or captain, I'm not sure.

MS POSWA: You just told us that when - I'm going to put it like this, when you went to the Greyville Racecourse, what were your instructions?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Our instructions were to protect Ndaba, to watch him and to help him in case problems arose.

MS POSWA: And then when problems did arise you were able to protect him and at the same time pretend as if you are arresting him all at once?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, not to arrest him, to arrest Shabalala.

MS POSWA: If I heard correctly, I thought you said that when the signal was given and you were told to converge on Shabalala and Ndaba you tried to make as if you were arresting Ndaba as well?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: What I'm saying is at that point your instructions were that you should protect Ndaba but when the time came you were able to protect him as well as pretend to be arresting him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: That must have been quite difficult, mustn't it?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, it was not difficult.

MS POSWA: You transported Moosa to the safe house?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: And you already told us how this was done.  Now when did you come into contact with Ndaba?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: On the Saturday morning when Vusi Ninele had arrested him.

MS POSWA: At C R Swart?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS POSWA: And you did not ...(indistinct) any assault?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MS POSWA: Who was Ninele with when he arrested Ndaba?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Are you asking me in retrospect?

MS POSWA: Well let me just rephrase that.  When you met Ndaba at C R Swart, you said he was with Ninele?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MS POSWA: And who else?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: When I arrived at C R Swart, Chairperson, Ninele was standing outside and Ninele had Charles Ndaba with him and he brought him to me and he told me that he had arrested this person.  At that stage there had been policemen present, uniformed policemen, that were standing in the background and I immediately took Ninele and Ndaba and I took them to the 15th floor.

MS POSWA: You did not see another person who was not in uniform?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, there was a lot of people, it was outside the charge office and there had been several people standing around.  There were other policemen, people that I did not think was important or involved, this was outside C. R. Swart Police Station, there were lots of people.

MS POSWA: I quite understand that but the people who were involved you say you didn't see anybody else it was just Ninele and the uniformed policemen?