Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Not at all Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Tell me, can you think of any reason why Mr Taylor would call you to the scene, to Mr Bhila, if you were not going to do anything at all?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: This is one occasion where I cannot - I have no reason why Mr Taylor called me.

MR NGUBANE: Now may I suggest to you that you were called specifically to participate in the interrogation of Mr Bhila and his assault?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is totally incorrect Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: When you consulted with Rosslee did he at any stage tell you that according to his recollection you were present when Bhila was interrogated?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, not at all Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: This area where Bhila was killed, did you recognise it at the time when you took Bhila to be killed?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, it was my first time ever to go there.

MR NGUBANE: And now you know how - well as you stand there, do you know the area now, the name of the area?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I know it in broad speaking terms as Umbumbulu area.

MR NGUBANE: And did anyone describe the area to you prior to the incident or after the incident?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, not once Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Now let's look at the document Exhibit G again at page 13, paragraph 47.  You say
"We followed directions given by Michael and drove off the tarmac road onto a dead road into an area where I knew that there to have been a lot of faction fighting going on at the time."
Is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you stand by that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes I do.

MR NGUBANE: Did Major Taylor at any stage indicate to you how he had planned this operation, who were involved other than the people you have mentioned?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Major Taylor informed me that Bhila had been picked up as a result of him and the askaris and Vlakplaas members.

MR NGUBANE: Did you know about the presence of the Vlakplaas members and the askaris from that period?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He informed me of their presence Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Yes he informed you about their presence when he met you on the way to Bhila, is that correct?  And prior to that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Prior to that I knew that they were in Natal doing routine duties, yes.

MR NGUBANE: Had you met them at C.L. Swart?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes I had.

MR NGUBANE: And had you had a discussion with them of any sort, that is Rosslee and McCarter and Bosch?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes I'd had discussions with them.

MR NGUBANE: Was it before the acquittal of Bhila or when was it?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It would have been from the date of their arrival, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Was there a stage from when Bhila was acquitted from the day when Bhila was acquitted when you, Rosslee, McCarter and Bosch and Taylor sat in an office to discuss any operation of whatever kind?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Did you discuss at any stage with the Vlakplaas people any operation other than the Bhila operation when they were in Durban during that period?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I must have done that, yes Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: And can you recall what operation you discussed?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No I can't Mr Chairman, I don't remember.

MR NGUBANE: But definitely it was not an operation to kill innocent people?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is definite Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: May I just ask a question here, the "killing innocent people" remains confusing to me, just using it, what do you understand under innocent people on that question when you answer it?  Was Bhila an innocent person or a guilty person in your mind?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I was wandering that myself before you asked that as well, Mr Chairman.  However, no in my mind Mr Bhila was not an innocent person.

MR MALAN: He was not an innocent person?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Flowing from that did you at any stage with these Vlakplaas people I have referred to, discussed the killing of any Umkhonto weSizwe cadre?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, Prior for the Amnesty Committee.
	At page 14 of the first Bhila bundle, the first bundle, at Bosch's application, he said:
"I went with Frank McCarter and Rosslee in a Ford Sierra, followed them till we got to the relevant suburb.  It was still in the morning when we got to the relevant place.
We all know that it was this pistol shooting range.  Can you think of any reason why Bosch would have that recollection when he made his amnesty application ...[inaudible]

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman I can't, there are a lot of suppositions I feel made in his statement as I've seen in evidence later.

ADV PRIOR: This wasn't the first time for you to meet Bosch during the operation to kill Bhila, I mean you'd come down to Port Natal on other occasions?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I hadn't met him, this was my first occasion to meet Steve Bosch, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: He goes on to say
"Except for Laurie Wasserman there were also two members of the Durban Security Branch who was known to me as Warrant Spyker and Michael."
At the pistol club he links you being present with Michael Lembedi and Spyker Mhieza, is that a mistake on his part?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that's a mistake on his part.

ADV PRIOR: At page 24 of the same bundle in respect of Mr Rosslee's application, he certainly when he conferred with his attorney round about that same year in '96 when he made this application, he said when he was in Durban he was met by you, Mr Wasserman of the local security branch and you told him, well them, that two of the accused, the Amanzimtoti bomb blast criminal trial had been acquitted, they were still continuing their subversive actions and that "our task was to arrest them for purposes of elimination."  That seems to be a very clear statement, would you agree with that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I disagree with that statement entirely.

ADV PRIOR: No, before we get onto that, it's a clear statement, he doesn't say well I think that happened or I may be mistaken, it's a clear statement of what he applies for?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It's a clear statement Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Yes and that was made to his attorney.  I understand the same attorney that you had?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

ADV PRIOR: In Exhibit G at page 12, paragraph 42, you said the following or the note was made of the following and obviously this was a note prepared for you by your counsel after you had consulted with them.  You said
"Thereafter and particularly after becoming aware of the recollections of Rosslee, while preparing for the present Amnesty Hearing, I was reminded of the circumstances and facts relating to the incidents and the events became clearer in my mind."
Would that be an accurate note of the situation that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It's reasonably accurate Mr Chairman, he did present some circumstances which enabled recollection to come back to me.

ADV PRIOR: Do you deny informing Rosslee and McCarter and/or Bosch as stated in Rosslee's application?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't Rosslee denied that?

ADV PRIOR: He says he can't remember.
	As he testified here yesterday he had no independent recollection of that occurring?

MR VISSER: No Mr Chairman, he conceded that he might be wrong because it was pointed out to him in his evidence in chief that it really is in contradiction with the first paragraph.

ADV PRIOR: Well with respect, it's on the record, it's in an affidavit in his amnesty application and whether he denies it, with respect Mr Chairman, yesterday his evidence in '96 in these affidavits stands and ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: I'm not objecting Mr Prior ...[intervention]