Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, if we succeeded in recruiting her as an informant, she would be very valuable in the sense that in her position as the Commander, she had knowledge of various MK/ANC activities, not just in Swaziland, but also here internally in Port Natal.

MR VISSER: On page 40 of bundle 2, the third paragraph, you say that before I authorised the elimination of Zandile, I considered all possible options and then you mentioned the recruiting her as an informant or detaining, letting her go or then the last one, elimination.
	What I would like to ask you is when did the question about the elimination come to you and begin to play a role?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, the idea of elimination already came to me on the first day when Taylor and Botha spoke to me.  It was already for me an option then.

MR VISSER: Did you know that if you abducted her, let me put the question like this, if you abducted her from Swaziland and you used informants for that purpose, and you took her out of Swaziland, brought her into South Africa, and you could not recruit her as an informant, did you then realise that there could be a problem?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: What would that problem be?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Her recruitment or placing her back, would then lead that those informants would be placed in danger, the structures within Swaziland as well as in the Republic or in the Durban area had to be changed, or we had to adapt certain things.

MR VISSER: Why would that be so, why would there be changes, what structures are you talking about, police structures?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No, within the MK structures.

MR VISSER: You said that there would be changes there then, if she was then freed and placed back to Swaziland?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: She had to change her own modus operandi, any Commander would change the structures to make different plans, so that the Security Branch could not get hold of her or her structures.

MR VISSER: So you then realised that there is a possibility that eventually she will have to be eliminated?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Even so, you wanted or attempted to recruit her as an informant?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: If that was not the purpose, what could you have done then?  If it was not necessary or if it was not your purpose to recruit her as an informant, what would you have done then, if you did not decide to eliminate her?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Then we would possibly have to find it easier to eliminate her in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Botha testified here about how they went there, travelled there from Durban and how you arrived at the Onverwacht border post and what then happened in Swaziland and on the way back.  Do you agree with the evidence of Botha where he refers to your part and role and that is in short that you were dropped off at the Onverwacht border post, where you waited for them to return after all the planning and arrangements were made between you?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Is it correct that on the same day, late that evening, people came to you?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you were then picked up and taken to the border fence between the Republic and Swaziland to a certain point?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Where you met Zandile and Botha, helped them through the border fence and then transported them to the police station at the Onverwacht border post?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Why did you go along personally with this occasion Mr Steyn?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: At various occasions Mr Chairperson, I went along with operations with recruitment attempts, with various other investigations, because circumstances dictated that I go along.
	I know it was quite risky to send people into another country, and should something happen, I could at least be in the environment in order to attempt to control the situation from my point.

MR VISSER: Could you say when you were picked up and taken to the border post and returned to the house, who was the person who was present?  With the exception of yourself, who else was there?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: It was Ndwandwe, Henti Botha, Mr Forster and I think Mr Taylor.

MR VISSER: What happened to Ndwandwe that evening at the border post?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Chairperson, at the safe house, she was interrogated.

MR VISSER: You are referring to a safe house?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Or at least the house that was connected to the border post.

MR VISSER: Yes, there she was interrogated by whom?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Primarily by Mr Botha.

MR VISSER: Did any of the other members also interrogate her from time to time?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you yourself interrogate her from time to time?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, I attended quite a lot, although I did not ask her many questions.  Mr Botha was the one who asked the most questions.

MR VISSER: The person who worked with her as you put it, was Mr Botha?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: How long did this interrogation take?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: If I remember correctly, it was until approximately midnight, perhaps a little while after that.

MR VISSER: At what time did you pick up the people at the border post?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: The following morning, I think it was after seven.

MR VISSER: No, at what time did you fetch Botha and Ndwandwe at the border post?

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't the border post, it was the fence.

MR VISSER: It was the border fence.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I think it was approximately half past eight or 9 o'clock.

MR VISSER: So from approximately 9 o'clock to midnight, would you say?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, more or less.

MR VISSER: The following morning, you have just referred to the following morning, who arrived there?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Wasserman and Du Preez arrived there.

MR VISSER: Why didn't they come out the previous evening?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: It was too late for them to cross the border.

MR VISSER: I think that Botha said that the Onverwacht border post would close at six o'clock or I think closed at six o'clock at that stage?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, I am not entirely certain, but I know that it was late.

MR VISSER: Yes, they were too late.  Is it also your knowledge and recollection that Ndwandwe provided certain information with regard to MK activities in the Durban area?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: I don't expect of you to remember or repeat everything, but did you look at or are you aware of the application of Mr Botha?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And the cases which he has mentioned on pages 6 and 7, actually it is 6 to 9 or 6 to 8 at least, of bundle 2?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: By the following morning, what was the position with regard to the recruitment of Ndwandwe?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Chairperson, at that stage, there was no clarity with regard to whether or not she could be recruited as an informer.

MR VISSER: You have also heard Mr Botha's evidence concerning the measures which were applied in order to determine whether or not an informer would indeed be recruited, do you agree with what he said in broad principle?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Very well, if you could have recruited her, what would then have happened, there at the Onverwacht border post, what would have happened there?