Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

MR BERGER: And the distance from Kwamadala to Sebokeng hostel is quite far, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is quite a distance.

MR BERGER: And he returned with two shotguns?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: There were three of them.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon, three shotguns.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: By himself he fetched three shotguns and brought them back to Kwamadala.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Despite the fact that he too had no knowledge of any planned attack that night, that correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Are you being honest when you say that you only came to the hostel on the 17th of June and that you had no knowledge whatsoever about a prior attack on Boipatong?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I am telling the truth.

MR BERGER: Now when you got to the stadium you had no idea what it was all about, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: What exactly were you told at the stadium?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: When we arrived at the entrance point, myself and Serame, that is the entrance point to the arena, we came across Bajosi and we asked him what was happening.  Hollie Bajozi then said to Serame;  Mkhize said this is the time, the time which you all have been waiting for, that we should go and attack.  He then said Mkhize had just said that we should go and fetch our weapons.  Indeed, we went to fetch our weapons.  As we were talking there, Mkhize spoke as well.

MR BERGER: And what - sorry ...(intervention)

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Mkhize then said that the day of reckoning has arrived, it's about time we launched the attack.  We then went for our firearms or our weapons.

MR BERGER: Did Mr Mkhize say anything else?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I only heard him say what I've just said.  I don't know what he said before we arrived at the Arena.

MR BERGER: Did he say who you were going to attack?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Hollie Bajosi said we were going to attack the Self Defence Units.

MR BERGER: Did you know why?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I already knew.

MR BERGER: From whom?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Serame had informed me that they were tired of being burnt all the time.

MR BERGER: So you knew when you left Boipatong, when you left Kwamadala, that you were only going to attack the Self Defence Units?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: The shotgun that you had was a pump-action, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: The State witness, Mr Moloi, told the trial Court that you were in possession of a pump-action shotgun, so he was correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you were lying in the criminal Court?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Moloi also told the criminal Court that the following day he heard that, he heard you say that you had shot a small child in Boipatong, do remember that evidence?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I don't.  I did not know the State witness at the time.

MR BERGER: But he knew you because he accurately described what you were carrying in Boipatong.  Let me read to you what was put to you at page 3447 of the record.  Mr Bajosi has said in Court that he saw there in Boipatong and that you shot at a person, do you remember that?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is that evidence correct of Mr Bajosi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: That is a lie.

MR BERGER: You never shot at a person?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Then it goes on.  Mr Moloi has testified that the following morning he was in a conversation with you and other people while he was drinking there and others were also drinking and then you said that you had shot a small child, do you remember that evidence?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I don't.

MR BERGER: You say Mr Moloi was not telling the truth?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Because you knew, or you know, and you knew then that small children were not part of the SDUs, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you know what happened to your shotgun?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was taken by Mr Damarra.

MR BERGER: Yes?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He took it on the 17th, he took it together with the other two shotguns.  He brought them back on the following day, which was on the 18th and during which time we heard or we received information that we were going to be attacked by people from Serele.  When we came back, at the robots where we took a turn, Mr Damarra took these firearms again, put them in his Skyline and drove away.

MR BERGER: This is on the 18th?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Damarra Chonco puts three shotguns into the boot of his car, were there other guns in the boot of his car?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: His car was a distance from where we were.  It was on the side of a wall.

MR BERGER: But it was inside the hostel?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And there were other weapons in the boot?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I did not get near the Skyline.

MR BERGER: And then with your three shotguns in his car, he left the hostel and drove away?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And at that time the hostel was surrounded by the police and the army?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The police had not arrived yet and the soldier had not arrived as well.

MR BERGER: What time of the day on the 18th was this?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was in the morning.  It was after we heard that the Serele people were going to avenge.  The time could have been eight, nine or thereabouts.

MR BERGER: And the people of Boipatong were marching towards the hostel, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: They had said they were going to avenge, that is insofar as rumour is concerned.

MR BERGER: And how were they turned away?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: There were many soldiers and the Stability Unit around the area and they came to us,

MR BERGER: And it was only after that that Mr Damarra Chonco drove away?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And at that time the army was already there outside the hostel?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: We left the soldiers and the police at the robots.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you leave the hostel on the 18th to meet these people who were about to attack you?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You say, did you go as far as the robots?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we went as far as the robots.

MR BERGER: After Damarra Chonco drove away with the three shotguns you never saw those shotguns again?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I saw only two of them later and not mine.  He said he was going to bring my gun back.

MR BERGER: What happened to the two that he brought back?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The police confiscated them as exhibit.

MR BERGER: When did he bring them back?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He brought them back after the soldiers and the police had left.

MR BERGER: This must have been many days after the attack?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It could have been a week or weeks.

MR BERGER: Did you see Jabulani burying a shotgun?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: When was that?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: At the time when we were at the veld.

MR BERGER: Was it your shotgun that he was burying?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: ...(no English translation)

MR BERGER: Whose shotgun was he burying?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was his own shotgun.

MR BERGER: This was after you had left Boipatong but before you returned to Kwamadala.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was on our way to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: On your way into Boipatong you saw Jabulani burying a shotgun in the ground?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Before the attack on Boipatong?