Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I think they did, even though I am not really sure as to what happened, because my mind was focused on Chris.  I think they ran away because after a while of having done our job, we realised that there were other people who were injured besides Chris himself.

MR PATEL: In the execution of these orders, did you act out of personal malice or for any gain?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: No, it was not for any personal gain and I wasn't expecting to get anything in return.

MR PATEL: Now finally you also claim amnesty for the possession of a firearm and ammunition, and you say it relates to this particular incident.
	What firearm were you carrying?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I had an AK47.

MR PATEL: Where did you obtain the AK47 from?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: That was brought to me by Mzwandile Gushu.

MR PATEL: And for what reason did you take possession of the firearm?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter Mr Patel, it was unlawful?

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  Were you prosecuted for these offences?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I never did.

MR PATEL: Do you have an alias?  Are you known by another name?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I do.

MR PATEL: What is that alias?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Kye-Kye.

MR PATEL: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

MR PATEL: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp, have you got any questions?

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

MR KEMP: .

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: .

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just bear with me for one moment please.

MR BLACK: Just for the record, I have no questions either.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were late again.

MR BLACK: .

MR HATTINGH: Mr Nkonyane, you knew Chris Ngwenya very well, is that correct?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I did not know him very well.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know where he lived at the time?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I did.

MR HATTINGH: Was he employed?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: No, he wasn't.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know what his movements were between the time that you received the instruction to kill him until the time that you executed the instruction?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I did.

MR HATTINGH: What were his movements?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Most of the time he was at the Police station.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever see him at his house or going to his house, during that period before he was killed?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I don't understand, are you saying have I ever been to his place before he was killed, or has he ever been to his place?  What I can tell you is that I went to his place on the very same day that I wanted to kill him.

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps you can just explain there was a delay of approximately or let me just first start by saying that according to the background statement, a decision that Chris Ngwenya was to be assassinated, was taken in February 1992.  Do you agree with that, and  I refer to page 14 of the bundle of documents, Volume 1, paragraph 18?

MR PATEL: With respect Mr Chairman, I don't think that this is a fair question.

CHAIRPERSON: He wouldn't be able to tell you when that decision was taken Mr Hattingh.  Let's ask him this, when were you instructed to carry out this operation?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: If I remember quite well, I think it was quite some time after the order had been issued, because our method of operation is for us to use or utilise whatever time is available or on our hands, to get the person that we are supposed to kill.
	As to how long we take, is not an issue.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not the point, the point is how long before you executed the order, did you get the instruction?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: After we realised that the violence was going on in Wesselton, but I cannot be specific with regard to the date or the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Chris Ngwenya was killed on the 12th of April 1992.  Do you say that since receiving the instruction to kill him, it was up to you to decide whether you should in fact carry out that instruction pending on the extent of the violence which persisted or not?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, you are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said once you got the instruction, that's it, you had to carry it out?  Isn't that what you said?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: If you receive an instruction, you don't necessarily execute that instruction at the very same time.  You may look for the person and not get him, or you may find that the place where you have to attack the person, is not a safe place, so it is up to you as the attacker, to decide as to when to attack, as long as you have attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just understand that, you have just told us that you executed the order to kill because the violence had not ceased or abated, do you recall that?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened if the violence had ceased or abated when that order to kill Ngwenya was still alive?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I was going to maintain the order and kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: So of what relevance is the abating or the ceasing of the violence then as far as you are concerned?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: This stems from the fact that I had been given an instruction and whatever instruction was given to me by my Commander, I have to carry out regardless of what.
	I would only stop if my Commander comes back to me and say to me listen, there is no more violence, now you must stop killing so and so, then I would stop on another order to stop.

MR HATTINGH: Do I then understand you correctly that when you executed the instruction, it was based purely on the strength of a command from your Commander and irrespective of whether the person, the victim was actually politically involved or not, you would have killed that person?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Then I ask the question, is that the position?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I would like to explain this to the Committee that the question that he is putting to me as to whether there was violence or not, I want to put this picture that as I had been instructed and told what to do, if I have not been stopped or told to halt, I was not going to.
	Secondly, if that person was not involved in that violence, I do not think that I would just approach a person who has not done anything or who was not involved in politics and kill him and leave all the others.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had to rely on the information that your Commander had, isn't it?  If your Commander issued that instruction, would you carry it out if the instruction related to a person that is not involved in politics and did nothing wrong?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: I would follow an instruction given to me, I am not going to run away from that.  If I was instructed to kill, I was going to kill irrespective.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know whether Gushu also knew Chris - at the time, did he indicate to you that he also knew Chris?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I do know that.

MR HATTINGH: So both of you were in a position to recognise Chris Ngwenya at the time when you executed your instruction to kill him?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: The way you have structured your question, it did not happen in that manner.  You are being very simplistic.

MR HATTINGH: Even though I may be simplistic, are you prepared to answer the question?

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Yes, I am prepared.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, do so please.

PAULOS PISTOL NKONYANE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR HATTINGH: I understand you that both you and Mr Gushu knew Chris and both of you would be in a position to recognise Chris at the time when you were about to execute your instruction to eliminate him.