Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MODISE MOLEFE: On my arrival at Shell House I firstly went to my office, opened the office as an intelligence officer see it, the document that I have left in the office are still normal packed as I know that there was not somebody who perhaps might have intruded in my office. And I found the situation being normal. I locked my office I went down. Usually I buy a paper to acquaint myself with the day to day activities. And then as I passed the foyer to go and buy the paper I could realise that the situation was definitely abnormal. People gathered at the foyer. People discussing at the foyer. And I cannot recall whether did I go and buy the paper or I did not but I became curious and joined the meeting.

MS MORAKA: You then state that you received a briefing from Joe (...indistinct) That is Mr Sikavani?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: You state at paragraph 6 that at approximately eight thirty you were told by Mr Lushaba to get to Mr Gagee to collect an AK47 from him.

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes after we were briefed about the possible attack and we discussed about the employment and initially I was deployed outside Shell House by Mr Chris Lushaba. Having my own licence gun and later on I was called by Chris Lushaba to go to Mr Gadu and collect an AK and I did so.

MS MORAKA: And where were you deployed with the AK47?

MODISE MOLEFE: I was deployed on the parapet.

MS MORAKA: You mention in page 8 and page 9 you talk about the marchers that you observed from the parapet. I beg your pardon page 8 and 9. Can you tell.

MR LAX: Sorry you mean paragraphs 8 and 9.

MS MORAKA: Paragraphs 8 and 9. Can you tell the Court what you observed during the course of the morning?

MODISE MOLEFE: I went to the parapet and as I was patrolling the parapet the first group of marchers passed going towards Plein Street and there was no incident whatsoever. Armed with traditional weapons; assegai and knobkierries singing their songs, they passed without any incident. The second group passed and I think on the parapet by then I was with Veli Llale, one of my comrades, colleagues and friends. And I had to show him that look at those weapons, pistols, shot guns and some other weapons which were partially concealed like AK's and they passed going towards Bree and subsequently there was an automatic fire. As to who was firing amongst the group or who was the group was fighting with I do not know. But according to my recollection they came back, retreated towards Shell House and straw themselves along our walls and after few minutes they continue with their journey. And as the times goes on I must say Your Honourable Chairman because there were quite many groups on that particular day. I will try to recall the group that I have seen. And I remember seeing a group in Plein Street armed with knobkierries, pangas hitting the posters of the president of the African National Congress, being provocative to the security guards on the floor and above all some women were trying to show other substantial posterior which was not badness to us and we ignored that. And as we were watching this group, as we were watching this group what attracted us in the corner of George and de Villiers Street we were attracted by the shots which I could never, ever say now from which direction. Whether were they coming from our security down there or were they coming from the marchers. As we arrived there.

MS MORAKA: Mr Molefe sorry when you say: "As we arrived there," where are you talking about?

MODISE MOLEFE: Mr Chairman I am referring to the corner of King George and de Villiers because I said the group of the marchers in Plein Street they were of no significance. They were just doing clumsy things and which we did not bother about them. But all what concerns us was the fire shots in our own building which I will never say at the moment whether those shots were coming from the marchers or from our security guards at the corner of King George and de Villiers. This is what attracted us on. On our arrival there we (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry on your arrival there - the question was put to you on your where? Did you go to the corner of the street; King George Drive and de Villiers Street?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: So you went there?

MODISE MOLEFE: We went there.

MS MORAKA: But can you explain Chairperson. You mean you were still on the parapet but when you observed the group that you are referring to you were on another section of the parapet and then you moved to the corner of King George and de Villiers. Is that what you telling?

MODISE MOLEFE: Precisely.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes carry on.

MODISE MOLEFE: On our arrival there I pointed out pistols. I pointed out shot guns. I pointed out a huge black man carrying an AK. And the two policemen in my own thinking.

MS MORAKA: Before we get to the two policemen. I am sorry Mr Molefe. To whom did you point this out to?

MODISE MOLEFE: To Veli.

CHAIRPERSON: Give me that name again? How do you spell it?

MODISE MOLEFE: Veli is V-e-l-i.

MS MORAKA: Chairperson he is the eighth applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes do carry on.

MS MORAKA: You were telling us about the two policemen that went up the street.

MODISE MOLEFE: The two policemen they gave me an impression as if they were trying to stop the marchers. Not to go to Shell House. A other group was coming from King George down and they converged in the intersection and a policeman apparently if I recall very well they defeated him. He ran backwards towards Shell House and the second. And subsequently they paused for a while. All what I hear from those shots no single person by then fired.

MS MORAKA: Sorry Mr Molefe when you say subsequently they paused for a while who are you referring to? Are you referring to the marchers or to the two policemen who came running back from the direction of the marchers?

MODISE MOLEFE: Honourable member of the Committee I am referring to the marchers. They paused for a while.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on.

MODISE MOLEFE: And subsequently I heard an automatic fire directed at us to Veli and myself. I had to drag Veli down the indent of the balcony. And why do I say those fires were directed at us because the concrete particles of the wall, the upper wall there in the parapet they flew and particles of them came into our jackets. And I dragged Veli down and immediately I shot with an AK rifle upwardly.

MS MORAKA: Mr Molefe can we pause there? Can you give the Committee members a brief description of the parapet because you have mentioned that you dragged them down. Is it correct that the parapet has different levels?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes the parapet has different levels. There is some a layer of an iron which if you appear on top of it I will be protruding half of my body and immediately if you can fell in the indent, the wall is quite a little bit far. I mean a little bit higher than my height. And it is where I dragged Veli in. In that indent. And subsequently I had to shoot with an AK upwardly and my intention of shooting upwardly, not in the direction of the marchers, my intention was to say to them: "Hey look we are out, we are just to repel" That automatic outburst of AK47 will frighten them to retreat from their positions.

MS MORAKA: Mr Molefe how many times did you fire?

MODISE MOLEFE: I fired only with an automatic fire. It was automatic once, a continuous automatic. I estimate, this is my rough estimation that the shot that I might, I fired could be approximately 15, 12 approximately. Approximately. Now it is a rapid fire from an automatic machine.

MS MORAKA: And what then did you do?

MODISE MOLEFE: I cannot understand your question.

MS MORAKA: You fired that one shot on automatic. Did you remain in the indent? What else happened?