Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR STANDER: : I would have reached that aspect I just wanted to give the witness the opportunity to reply to that after which I could put the basis to him  1/4  [interjection]

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please put your questions otherwise your cross-examination will be terminated.

MR STANDER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  I want to put it to you Mr Shaw that the procedure which was followed during the interrogation was not as calm as you are pretending, violence was used.  That is what I want to put to you.

MR SHAW: : I have no knowledge of any violence that was used on these people.

MR STANDER: You also didn't hear that any violence was used?

MR SHAW: No.

MR STANDER: And if Motsamai says that he assaulted some of them, then according to you he is also lying, do I understand you correctly?

MR SHAW: That is his version.

MR STANDER: But do you have any reason to distrust him when he says he did assault some of these people?

MR SHAW: Well, if he says he did then he did but I have no knowledge of any assaults that took place.

MR STANDER: He did not only say that he did he also said the other members of the group who were involved in the interrogation.

MR SHAW: I have no knowledge of the assaults.

MR STANDER: So if he is not lying about his own then surely there won't be a reason for him to lie about the involvement of the other people, do you agree with me?

MR SHAW: I said I have no knowledge .

MR STANDER: I have no further questions, thank you
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Shaw, you've been referred to your affidavit isn't it, at page 38, that is the affidavit relating to Ngo.  Have you got that affidavit now?

MR SHAW: Is that the one which is marked P19?

ADV MEMANI: That is the one that is the one which deals with Mr Ngo, its dated the 18th of March.

CHAIRPERSON: It is headed Amnesty Application M.N. Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Mr Chair.
	Have you read that affidavit?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you are satisfied that the affidavit was drafted according with your instructions in all material respects?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And I wish to refer you now to page 39, paragraph 3.2 where you say that
"Ngo was recruited to work as an in informant for our branch and from time to time I saw - I dealt with him in that capacity"

MR SHAW: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And so you did in fact deal with Ngo and not only Erasmus?

MR SHAW: Erasmus was the main handler of Mr Ngo and on occasion it was one occasion when I saw him and it was at the request of Mr Erasmus.

ADV MEMANI: And you further say that
"I have further knowledge that at one stage he was
attacked by his co-scholars or fellow scholars"

MR SHAW: That's correct.
MR MEMANI
"and that he was taken to the hospital or had to be taken to the hospital by members of our branch"

MR SHAW: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now do you if thereafter he was taken to Mr. Venter's house?

MR SHAW: I have no knowledge of Mr Venter nor do I know where Mr Nelson Ngo found himself after this incident.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know at all that Erasmus was involved in making arrangements for Mr Ngo's safety after the incident?

MR SHAW: I do know that Superintendent Erasmus was concerned about Mr Ngo but I do not know what the arrangements were that he made regarding Mr Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know that he made arrangements for his safety thereafter?

MR SHAW: I have no knowledge of that.
MR MEMANI
"Thereafter he completed his school career at Ladybrand after which he joined the SAP as a member"

MR SHAW: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it so that at the time when he came and worked to the in the office after he completed his studies, you regarded him as a member of the SAP?

MR SHAW: After he had been sworn in as a member of the police I regarded him as a member of the police, that is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Shaw did you have any differences with Mr Ngo?

MR SHAW: No, I had no differences with him.

ADV MEMANI: And to your knowledge he had nothing against you, isn't it?

MR SHAW: Not that I'm aware of.

ADV MEMANI: If I may have a moment Mr Chair.
	 You didn't at any stage give instructions that Mr Ngo was never a member of the security branch did you?

MR SHAW: : I don't understand your question properly, please rephrase.

ADV MEMANI: It was put at some stage to Mr Ngo that he was never a member of the security branch and my question to you is, you did not at any stage give instructions that Mr Ngo was never a member of the security branch?

CHAIRPERSON: How do you mean he gave instructions that Mr Ngo was never a member of the security branch? I don't understand it either.

ADV MEMANI: I'm not with you either Mr Chairman but what I'm putting to the to the witness is that he did not at any stage give instructions that Mr Ngo was never a member of the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question?

MR SHAW: No I don't understand the question.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Shaw, it was put to Mr Ngo that he was never a member of the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, is your question simply did you at an6y time say that he was not a member of the security branch?

ADV MEMANI: It's the same thing that I'm asking?

CHAIRPERSON: It tisn't.  The words: "gave instructions that he was not" implied that Mr Shaw took some action to make sure that he wasn't, that other people would not do things.
	If your question is simply, did you ever say that he was a not a member of the security branch ask it, it's a simple question?

ADV MEMANI: Well, let it be put be put the way you prefer Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever tell anybody that he was not a member of the security branch ?

MR SHAW: Mr Ngo, was never a member of the security branch.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Shaw, I understood you to be saying that Mr Ngo worked with you for a few months before he went he went to Hammanskraal, isn't it ?

MR SHAW: If I could just explain.  Mr Ngo was a member of the police, he was at Batu.  If I remember correctly he was on their register and he was not transferred but he assisted security branch members with Colonel Erasmus in identifying suspects until such time as he was transferred to the college.

ADV MEMANI: To your knowledge, did Mr Ngo report at Batu police station?

MR SHAW: As for as my knowledge is concerned he reported to the security offices where he came and did his job but he worked as a student at security branch.

ADV MEMANI: Now I don't understand.  According to your affidavit he was a member of the South African police and at the same time you say he was a student?

MR SHAW: That is correct.  If I can just explain, he was sworn in with the South African Police and he became a member of the South African Police but he had no rank, he was he only had the rank of student.  Once he completed his college training the rank of constable would be awarded to him but before that he was known as a student constable, that's before his departure to the college.

ADV MEMANI: Did you have any differences with Mr Motsamai?

MR SHAW: No, I had no differences with Mr Motsamai

ADV MEMANI: And you knew him to be a member of the security branch for a long time, isn't it?

MR SHAW: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MEMANI: I'm sorry if I may be I'm being repetitive, you did not have any differences with him?

MR SHAW: No, I had no differences with Mr Motsamai.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman it's a convenient time.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR SHAW: (s.u.o.)

ADV MEMANI: Mr Shaw, did you not in conjunction with Erasmus, arrange for the employment of Ngo despite the fact that he had a criminal record?

MR SHAW: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Did you not, after Ngo was attacked, take steps to have him transferred to Ladybrand?

MR SHAW: No, I'm not aware of that, I did not make those arrangements.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] it after he appeared did you?