Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR ROUSSOUW: Sorry, Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt.  Roussouw on behalf of Mr Bosch.  Mr Chairman, I believe that the section that you are quoting from is out of context.  Mr Chairman, I would like to refer you to this specific incident which was supplemented, and you will find it on page 18 of the bundle, which is question 10(c) dealing with this incident, and that question deals with whether there was any financial benefit or not, page 18 Mr Chairman.  You will see that the answer there is "no".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the first answer sworn to by him on the 18th of November 1996 was "yes".

MR ROUSSOUW: Indeed, Mr Chairman, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He can explain it when he comes to give evidence.
	When you were in Koevoet, were you with Mr de Kock at all?

FRANK MCCARTER: I didn't work in the same group as Mr de Kock but we knew one another there.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in the same area?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were working against armed insurgents?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You'd capture them and try to turn them?

FRANK MCCARTER: We did do that, yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I have heard evidence from Mr de Kock as to how these people were treated.  They were tied up, chained for long periods.  Did you know of this treatment?

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And that if they finally were not prepared to turn, they were frequently killed.  They couldn't be used for anything else.

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I heard of instances, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Unarmed men who'd been in prison for weeks or months were then murdered by the units you were working with, is that so?

FRANK MCCARTER: I don't know of specifics but there was mention of it yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there's just one aspect that has arisen from Commissioner Malan's evidence.  ...(inaudible - microphone not on)
	Mr McCarter, I just want to put to you, insofar as your evidence may create the impression ...
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MR VISSER: Mr McCarter, for as far as your evidence would give the impression that in cases such as the Bhila incident, orders were carried out that came from higher up, higher up meaning the Commissioner of Police or the Chief of Security of the Police or the Minister, I want to put it to you that your evidence is entirely without foundation.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I'm not for one moment saying that General van der Merwe or Minister Vlok or anyone knew Bhila personally or of his circumstances, all I'm saying is that it was a trend that we would have, had we been caught we would have been protected.

MR VISSER: Yes, well lastly on that score I also want to tell you that this, not this Committee but the Amnesty Committee has heard evidence on more than one occasion that that was simply not so.  In the police, as far as the higher ranking officers - and I may add that I appear for Mr Vlok, Mr van der Merwe, Mr Coetzee, previous Commissioners of Police, there was never except in exceptional circumstances such as the Stanza Bopape case, there was never protection extended and people who did not tow the line had to take the rap themselves.  I put to you that that was the official position.

FRANK MCCARTER: I won't deny it, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairman, just one aspect.  Mr Malan had indicated to the witness - it's not really a question arising but just for the record, that nowhere in the application is the word "order or instruction" used, may I just indicate Mr Malan had later referred to it himself, to paragraph 11(a) where it says specifically
"I received a direct instruction"
I just wanted to put the record straight as far as that is concerned, thank you.

MR MALAN: Sorry, this is generally relating to the whole of the application.  He says one instance but where it deals with the specifics and we're only dealing with this one incident of Bhila and there are more incidents, so he's identifying Bhila on this paragraph and if he wants to give that evidence he needs to do   so.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I don't want to argue with you Mr Malan, I simply say it has been his evidence all along, that there was just this one incident ...(inaudible)
NO MICROPHONE

MR MALAN: Did he not apply for amnesty for other incidents?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Only for the Cosatu House, but that's not included in here.  But there he says specifically in 11(a) that was another direct instruction from Eugene de Kock.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, may I be permitted just to deal with one matter that has been raised by Mr Malan, as you know I act on behalf of Mr de Kock.  May I just address one question to Mr McCarter?
	Mr McCarter, I foresaw the possibility that this question was going to be asked as to whether you reported back to Mr de Kock.  We canvassed the issue with him, and let me put it to you that Mr de Kock says he blissfully unaware of this particular incident until fairly recently, about a years ago when he had been advised by the Attorney-General's office of this particular incident.  
	When you testified that you did report to him you said, I think words to the effect that you think you told him or you weren't sure, are you absolutely sure and convinced of it that you did report to Mr de    Kock?

FRANK MCCARTER: I think my evidence will state that I wasn't sure at all, I can't recall.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: May the witness stand back, Mr Chairman, there's no other evidence in his application that we intend to put forward.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
WITNESS EXCUSED
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF