Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: If it was nuclear, yes, but then we never transported nuclear cargo.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: If it was military, would you get to hear of it?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, not necessarily, because we don't transport military equipment.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are you certain?

CHAIRPERSON: Or at least not to your knowledge?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Unless - ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you didn't check what was being put there and what have you?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that is what is being conveyed to you, that people like you either would be unaware of what was conveyed, but that did not remove the fact that it was conveyed, or were colluding about it and were not prepared to disclose it, no such a suggestion has been put to you, but I think you must accept that... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...we can put propositions, because there is investigation that has gone on that has revealed, so whenever he says, he premises, "Look, you were carrying, you know, military hardware", etcetera, etcetera, it is on the basis that there is information to that effect, and therefore you are entitled to say, "I didn't know about it", but I don't think you are entitled to be as emphatic as to say, "We never carried it".

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not to my knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: It would never have been licensed... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Definitely not.

CHAIRPERSON: ...for you to carry those, because... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Well, again... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...(a) you had an arms embargo, which was an international arms embargo, and secondly I don't think the aviation rules would have allowed you to carry dangerous substances in passenger airlines... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: The point is... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...and since the Helderberg was a passenger airline, though it had what I understand in your technical terms, kombi, kombi aircraft, but nonetheless it was a passenger aircraft and I'm sure your rules would have made it impossible for you to carry dangerous substances on an airline that was supposed to be carrying human beings as well.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Quite correct, but the point is, certain military equipment, okay, we would, one, not know that it was military, but that military equipment would not be a danger at all, okay?   There is lots of equipment that all airlines transport.   I mean we transport our own aircraft components and everything else, okay?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Would you carry rockets?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I would carry a rocket if it was classified under IATA and it wasn't loaded or charged.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are rockets classified under IATA?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I'm not sure, you will have to ask the people.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well let me put to you a proposition... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay, please.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...Mr Van der Veer, do you know a pilot called Flippie Looch?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I've heard of the name.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Have you heard of a pilot called Deon Storm?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are you aware that both pilots, whilst refuelling and being parked on the apron at Tel Aviv Ben Gurion Airport, experienced a very similar experience?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I'm not aware of that, I have heard the rumour subsequently.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are you aware that, let me tell you what it is, and it is not a rumour, it is true.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: During the loading of his plane, Looch saw them drop a piece of cargo out and walked around to find that it was rockets.   Are you aware of that rumour?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, not that it was a rocket.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: What were you aware of?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: That there was, as it says here basically, there was a crate and something fell out of it that they might interpret as a missile.   I don't know what's a missile, but it could have been a rocket then.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: But tell me, when did that happen?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: That happened a few years before the Helderberg.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: A few years?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Before '83?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.   I just want to put it clear that before '83 I wasn't there... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...so I wouldn't know.   I know the rumour.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I never investigated the rumour, there was no need.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It happened '84, '85.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I'm not aware of it.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now, Looch has confirmed that and so has Deon Storm.   Can you think of a reasonable explanation as to why SAA have gone to extraordinary lengths to suggest that these were mirage wing tanks?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Surely, and I want to put it to you, Mr Van der Veer, that if they were rockets, if they were something which Captain Looch and Deon Storm, both ex Defence Force pilots, would have easily recognised, and would not have been confused between that and a drop tank, if they were in fact things that were classified to be carried aboard your airline, the airline could have easily said, "These are IATA approved, they are uncharged, we'll carry them and mind your own business", can you think of a reason why they didn't say that and why they tried, as recently as three years ago, to try and convince me that they were drop tanks for a mirage?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Who tried to convince you?   Sorry, I just... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Theuns Kruger tried to convince me.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Theuns Kruger... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...Dr Theuns Kruger?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes, the same man.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: And Captain Storm?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well, Deon Storm never spoke to me, I have a report of his, but Flippie Looch did, and he was very unwilling to talk until I suggested to him that SAA had already suggested to me, and incidentally the other person who told me that was John Hare.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: John Hare wasn't with the airline then.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But he was when I asked him the question... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...and that's the answer he gave me.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: There's an interesting linkage there again, talking about weapons and I mean armaments and SAA, because John Hare was in Armscor, wasn't he?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes, he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: And I recruited him from there, Mr Chairman, if you're worried about it, and that he was one of the experts on money, and I think I included him... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: (Indistinct) expert on... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Well... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Is that all?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: We took him in as financial manager specifically for that job.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes, but the picture I'm painting for you, Mr Van der Veer, is a very simple one.   You've got a series of inexplicable things happening.   In each and every occasion the airline has reverted to some kind of devious way to escape the truth, "It's not rockets, it's mirage wing tanks", okay?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.