Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-14

MR WILLS: Yes, now, is it not so as you say in your affidavit that you got that vehicle, that ZG Husky, because you had made complaints to the persons who were in authority, that you didn't have the transport which you needed to conduct these attacks and it was as a result of that that Mr Xele brought the ZG Husky, which was given to you to utilise, is that correct?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.  We had complained because the very same vehicle that we were using, belonging to Bebebeyela was not always available.
	Sometimes he would use it and his wife as a nurse, would use the Skyline and as a result we would not be able to use it when we wanted to.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, I am probably not on the same wave length as Mr Mkhize because the divulged purpose which has been stated in his affidavit, was that the aim then was to shoot at ANC members whilst they were dispersing from the meeting.  I thought the reason why you asked why he shot at the two persons and also the other person who was told to take the first bus, was to try and reconcile the two intentions, whereas initially the intention was to attack the ANC members, whilst dispersing from the meeting.
	He then gave instructions which were different from the initial or original intention of going to that school.  I don't know whether I really understood your question to be trying to elicit that kind of evidence.

MR WILLS: Thank you Ms Committee member.  Possibly I can ask for clarification.  It is clear as you say in your affidavit, that your initial intention was to wait at that meeting and to wait for the persons to disperse from that meeting, and then to shoot at those people, is that not so?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.  That is what I have stated in my affidavit.

MR WILLS: But what happened, please Mr Mkhize, if you can just let me finish.  What happened in fact is that on the way to the meeting, you shot or your group killed two people, in fact Mr Hlongwane was the person who pulled the trigger and then later on, before the people even dispersed from the meeting, a third person was killed, is that correct?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, the question that concerns the Committee member is why did you deviate from that initial purpose?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: I would like to explain something here.     In our planning there are things such as alternatives.  An alternative therefore would be a plan in place so that if plan A fails, plan B should be used.
	Secondly there are certain things which would happen unexpectedly, so that whatever strategy could be adopted at the time, would suffice.
	On that day, yes our aim was to attack them as they were leaving the meeting, because we had already heard that there would be a meeting.  These first two people who were shot by Israel following my instruction, are not near, anywhere near the meeting.  They were a distance away from the meeting, but in the same section, which section we knew had ANC followers.  That is the first thing I would like to say.
	We have not yet arrived at the meeting to which we were headed.  We shot these people knowing that they were ANC members, because they were walking freely around the area at that time.  That was not a planned intention, and we knew that the firing of the guns, shooting at these two people, could not be picked up by the people to which we were going.
	We were just shooting, knowing that this is an ANC area.  What disrupted the meeting, or our plan however, is that on arriving at Mzingwena entrance point, we were sitting inside the Husky, quiet.  There was not even an indication that a meeting was going on.  There was absolutely nothing to the effect that there was a meeting in that school.
	We started doubting as to whether the meeting was indeed going on or not, but it was also equally difficult to get off the Husky because we could be easily identified if we went out to verify the progression of the meeting.
	As we were sitting there, we concluded that there was no meeting, we must have gathered wrong information.  There came this person, the third person and Israel was a distance from us.  I cannot remember very well who shouted at who, saying first bus.  By that time, we had become disillusioned, knowing of course that that was the ANC area and we had come to attack the ANC members following the reasons that I have enumerated earlier, and we just decided not to hit people as they were dispersing, and on shooting at this person, we got back into the car and left.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, if I could just ask a question on this.  Mr Mkhize, you made it quite clear that there were areas which were either ANC or UDF controlled and other areas which were IFP controlled.
	What would be the position if somebody let's say just for an example, a supporter of the IFP who lived in an area wanted to visit a friend who lived in another area, would he and in between the two areas, was an ANC controlled area, would he not walk through that ANC area to go and visit his friend, or let's say to go to church if it is in another area, or to go to the store or whatever?
	Would you never get in your view, a person, an IFP person in an ANC area for an innocent purpose?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Mr Chairperson, I can tell you for sure no ANC member would set his foot in an Inkatha stronghold.  People would not dare take that chance and IFP leaders would equally not dare take a chance by stepping on forbidden territory.
	People such as Lucky Mbuyasi would not even wait for dusk to fall, people would be hit in broad daylight, because the fighting situation was so tense, such that people would not take that risk.
	That would give us assurance that if we proceeded this way, we would be safe.  Shops were such that this shop belongs to the ANC person and that one to the IFP person.  I am not talking about shops only here, I am also talking about shibeens.
	If a person wanted to go to a shibeen, a person would not dare go to a wrong shibeen, because it was well known that a particular shibeen is patronaged by people belonging to a particular organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, from that are you also implying or was it also your view that everybody who lived within a particular area, was a supporter of the organisation that was in control of that area or were there people who had no interest in politics and were neither ANC nor IFP supporters, but were let's say apolitical?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Mr Chairman, in our townships the situation is as follows:  J2 for example is known to be an IFP area.  There is nobody who resides in that area who would not take out or pay a certain amount towards the IFP.  People would pay and donate, people who were in charge of protecting the community, would be paid.
	Monies would be donated to buy guns and (indistinct), (indistinct) to strengthen the people and therefore anybody who resided in that section belonging to the organisation, would be expected to pay these monies, even though it would be against his or her will, but such a person would pay these monies and attend meetings, because if a person did not do that, such a person would be attacked and ex-communicated.
	So that such a person would be expected to pay the money to maintain the boys who were protecting the community, that was the kind of life that prevailed.  That is why there was this assurance that people in a particular area belonged to a particular organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mkhize, what you are basically saying is that it was very difficult for persons to be apolitical, because you have previously stated that not even dogs and cats could not be political, so the situation was that intense in terms of politics, that everyone was compelled to choose between the two sides?