Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

WALTER SMILES: Mr de Jager, there was no other choice, this is why I had to lie.  I had to get out of there and this is why I made such a statement and it was not true, Laurens did not explain it like that.

ADV DE JAGER: By why then mention Laurens, why bring him into trouble?

WALTER SMILES: I was frightened, I then told them - I then made the statement, I told him what I've said.  I then withheld no truth but I was frightened, I said that.

ADV DE JAGER: But you mentioned something - did Laurens say anything about money that you will get when you make this statement?

WALTER SMILES: No, I was frightened, I keep to that.  Why should I make such a statement?

ADV DE JAGER: But now you are frightened and you land somebody else in trouble, you say he bribed you to make a false statement.

WALTER SMILES: No, no he never did that, I was frightened.

ADV DE JAGER: But that's what you said to Doctor Boraine.

WALTER SMILES: This?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, you landed Laurens in trouble because you were scared of these people.

WALTER SMILES: No, Mr de Jager, what actually happened - it was my only strategy to get rid of these people, I had no other option, I had to think of a way out of it.  It was my intention to tell the truth, I don't know how to explain it but I had ended up lying.

ADV DE JAGER: But if you want to tell the truth, why lie?

WALTER SMILES: No, they didn't explain to me, if they explained to me I would have told them the whole truth.  When I went to Laurens I withheld nothing, nothing.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but because of your lies you could have landed him in trouble.

WALTER SMILES: I don't think so.

ADV DE JAGER: You said he offered you money to do this.

WALTER SMILES: No, he didn't.

ADV DE JAGER: That's what you said to Mr Boraine, why did you do it?

WALTER SMILES: Once again, because I was frightened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Smiles, were you responding to questions which were being put to you by Sipho and Boraine?

WALTER SMILES: Can you explain that question to me please.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you made this statement on the 8th of June '96, was it as a result of questions which were being put to you by Sipho and Boraine?

WALTER SMILES: I asked them very nicely what could happen to me but they didn't say anything.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, you don't understand my question, that's not what I'm asking you.  I'm asking - for instance when you said
"Laurens said it was necessary to have a perpetrator volunteer to this incident"
Had you been asked specifically by Sipho and Boraine whether Laurens had requested you to volunteer for this incident or not or did that information come of your own volition?

WALTER SMILES: I told them myself.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Smiles, you said you felt upset of unhappy because they hadn't gone to Major Mbatha first, is that right?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: Why did you think that they should go to him first?

WALTER SMILES: Because he's the man who gave the orders.

PROF DE KOKER: You thought he was the person who was really responsible?

WALTER SMILES: He was the person giving the order and I was the one executing the order, they should have gone to him first.  If they had gone to him first and they would have come to me afterwards, then there wouldn't have been this statement, then we could have explained the whole thing from top to bottom.

PROF DE KOKER: How did you know they hadn't been to Major Mbatha before?

WALTER SMILES: I asked them.

PROF DE KOKER: And you mentioned his name to them?

WALTER SMILES: I asked them.

PROF DE KOKER: In '93, you were quite prepared to assume responsibility all by yourself and to go to jail alone for this, what made you scared in '96 to do the same?

WALTER SMILES: I didn't the TRC was going to sit and I didn't know what it was going to be like.

PROF DE KOKER: Whether you knew or not whether the TRC in existence or not, the fact is - as you told us just now, you were scared that day to go to jail.  Why did you suddenly become scared of going to jail?

WALTER SMILES: On this statement?

PROF DE KOKER: Yes.

WALTER SMILES: I didn't say I was scared, I only thought I was going to go to jail that same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smiles, no, that is not the impression that we got, our impression was that you said quite clearly that you were scared that you would go to jail that same day.

WALTER SMILES: Then I didn't understand it right.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's what you said.  Whether you understood the question or not, it didn't make any difference.  The fact is those words came from your mouth, you were scared that you would go to jail that day - whether you understood the question or not.

WALTER SMILES: That's right, I was scared.

CHAIRPERSON: Those words came from you, was that the truth?

WALTER SMILES: On this statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it true that on that day you were scared that you would go to jail that same day?

WALTER SMILES: I wasn't scared, I would have explained - I am the person who did this thing, I would have explained it all the way.

CHAIRPERSON: Professor de Koker, I thought he said that he was afraid that he would go to jail that same day?

PROF DE KOKER: That is how I understood it too, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you prepared to go to jail that day?

WALTER SMILES: On this statement which they asked me ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: On the day you made this statement, were you then - were you still prepared to go to jail?

WALTER SMILES: I was prepared but not on the same day as they were threatening me. They should have said to me: "We were charging you" or they should have said: "We were looking for information", then it would have been much better, then I wouldn't have made this statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Professor de Koker, continue.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you continue Professor de Koker, may I again with your indulgence, just take one point further in trying to understand Mr Smiles' testimony?
	Were you threatened by the investigators that you would be taken to jail that day?

WALTER SMILES: No, I wasn't threatened, I asked them but they never answered me about the jail thing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What did you say exactly to them?

WALTER SMILES: Before the statement?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

WALTER SMILES: I asked them: "What will happen to me if I tell the truth", they never answered me, they just looked at me, so now you can make your own deduction from that.  It wasn't my intention to lie, it was to tell the truth.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did they explain to you that they were from the TRC?

WALTER SMILES: Nothing, they didn't explain anything, I had no trust in them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you a statement, did you think you were making the statement to the police?

WALTER SMILES: No, they should have produced a card - a visiting card, or something that they are from the Investigative Unit of the TRC, then I would have explained it better and then I could have gone into detail and if they were decent with me in their questionings, I would never have made this statement.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So  you are saying they didn't explain to you that they were from the TRC and that they wanted a statement from you because they're from the Investigative Unit of that body?

WALTER SMILES: What I'm explaining, they said Investigation Unit but they never proved it.  They never proved their identity, so I never had trust in them, so this is why I've decided to make this statement.  If they've come with a statement saying: "I'm from the Defence Force" and produce a card, I will know who they are and then I will have trust in them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you not refuse to make a statement at all?

WALTER SMILES: Because they wanted a statement, that is why I decided to lie, it wasn't my intention to lie beforehand.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr de Koker.

ADV DE JAGER: There's just one question I would like to ask, you said why didn't they go to Laurens Mbatha first.

WALTER SMILES: That's right, yes.