Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Presently a brigadier?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Brigadier General.

MR PRIOR: Let me put the question to you this way, you had no doubt in your mind that the King William's Town Golf Club was an operation that was okayed, sanctioned at the highest level?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I have no doubts.

MR PRIOR: And the actual identification of the target, was the done by Leklapa himself?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: The what?

MR PRIOR: The identification of the target as a target for an operation, was that identified by the director of operations himself?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, and quite many other operations that were within my area of ...[indistinct]

MR PRIOR: I just want to make it abundantly, absolutely clear, it wasn't a situation where you as the local command or as a local commander on the ground had come up with the idea, it was passed on and it was then approved?  It was quite distinct from that, the order came from above?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You see, why I'm asking that question is because I have some difficulty with the submissions made on behalf of APLA before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and I refer to page 81 of Exhibit A.  I don't if your legal representative has taken you through these submissions at all.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Chairman, I think your leader will help us because we have the original bundle, I don't think we have this one because it was too big.  When he's referring it will be difficult for us to get to the page, actual page.

MR PRIOR: Does my learned friend not have a copy of the submissions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I've got the one which we used in Heidelberg.

MR PRIOR: Yes.  Page 81 of the transcript, I'm referring not to the paginated page but the typed page, the typed page number.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell us what ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: It starts with 1980
"So the '90's is a new form of emphasis or adaptation of the thrust or struggle did emerge"

MR MBANDAZAYO: Which one, the first submission or the second one?

MR PRIOR: It's the evidence given by the delegation, the APLA delegation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In the second ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: In the second, October submission yes.

MR LAX: Mr Prior, he doesn't have the same document that you're referring to.

MR PRIOR: May we then ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Perhaps we can just take a short adjournment and sort it out.

MR PRIOR: And maybe the witness can go through the passage before he's asked questions.

MR LAX: Absolutely.  Maybe you can indicate the passages you are going to refer to and let them have a look at it.

MR PRIOR: I'm indebted to the Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will accordingly take a short adjournment.  We have to reconvene and continue before we take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: All rise please.
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  May the witness just be reminded he's still under oath?

MR LAX: Mr Xundu, just to confirm that you are still under oath.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: (s.u.o.)

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Xundu, I want to refer you to page 78 of Exhibit A, towards the bottom of the page.  This was said on behalf of the APLA delegation:
"Insofar as the APLA responsibility"
I think it is in black and white, let me read that again.
"The APLA forces who carried these operations followed the directives from their commanders and these directives were from the highest echelons, that is the high command of the military leadership and we do not regret such operations having taken place and we are taking the full responsibility"
	Does that accord with your understanding of the direction and the orders that you received, specifically in respect of King William's Town Golf Club?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, I think it does.

MR PRIOR: Then I want you to look at page 81 because this passage of the submissions causes me particular problems and maybe you can explain that for the Committee.  If you can, please do and if you can't then you must indicate that you cannot explain.
	At the top of the page, and perhaps before I quote, this quotation or this evidence was given against the background of a question by the then leader of the Investigation Unit, Advocate Goosen, where he was seeking to ...[indistinct] or understand the difference between soft or hard targets and I think the reply from APLA was that at some stage there was no difference between the two.  
	I quote at the top of page 81:  
"So in the '90's a new form of emphasis or adaptation of the thrust or struggle did emerge and did take us a little off guard.  We were surprised and we did discuss.  And I'm sure that initially, with the question of King William's Town for instance, we were completely at a loss.  And we discussed and certain explanations were made to us by the high command.  Some of those explanations and the context of the changing environment, and they needed to carry with us the constituencies that were the main pillars of support of APLA, did, those explanations filtered through to us and we understood"
	Now the sense that I get from that is that when the King William's Town Golf Club operation occurred and had taken place, it seems to me that the APLA high command, those structures, the people in the leadership as it says here, were at a loss as to that operation.  Would I be correct in suggesting that it seems that this had not been sanctioned, this attack had not been sanctioned, the operation had not been sanctioned by the military high command?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Mr Chairman, just before the applicant answers, I think Mr Prior, if you can put perspective who was saying that because my understanding is that that passage was said by Mr Mlambo and Mr Mlambo, to my understanding, was not a member of the high command, he was a member of the military commission and a leader of the PAC there.  So there is a difference between military commission and high command.

MR PRIOR: I'm indebted to Mr Mbandazayo.  Yes, there was - the understanding that I have is that this was submissions made by the, it was a security force hearing so APLA was represented.  But I also understand, from what he now tells me, that Mr Mlambo was the military commissioner.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, he was a member of the military commission which included members of high command, APLA high command and PAC leadership.

MR PRIOR: Alright.  Maybe I can put the question, that according to Mr Mlambo at least, the military commission or a member of the military commission was taken aback at the news of the attack on King William's Town Golf Club.

MR PRIOR: Okay, then it means you are taking me two levels up.

MR PRIOR: I understand that if it goes beyond your personal knowledge, obviously I can't press you for an answer but maybe just for your comment, are you able to maybe put that piece of Mlambo's evidence in a context or you can't?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  It is on record here that comrade Mlambo said he was lost, was surprised, taken aback many ...[indistinct] but if we have to take into account what I've said initially, I've tried to give historical factors that prompted the PAC to form, to adopt the concept of an armed revolution against the system as appropriate and legitimate.
	And in that regard it received national and international acclamation.  Now that was dictated by the  concrete material conditions, objective conditions in that the pace was set by the inning and therefore, as it indicates here, in the '90's the ...[indistinct] there was yet another dynamism in the political situation of the time, militarily speaking and therefore APLA had to adapt to that.
	So the bottom line here is, whatever Mr Mlambo was trying to say, that everything was dictated by material conditions.

MR PRIOR: Alright.