Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, can you start from page 7, see under paragraph 10(a) a question is asked, state political objective sought to be achieved in committing the act in which you are applying for amnesty, for which you are applying for amnesty, and you then starting from page 7, respond by stating what you have stated and Mr Steenkamp's question is to this extent and this extent only, why have you not stated that the reason for attacking the Wimpy Bar was to attack the members of the Security Police, that does not appear?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I think we are saying here that, we are talking about those who served in the structures of Apartheid, and that includes the Special Branch in Benoni who frequented that area.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you see the words that you have used, the choice of words that you used in response in particular to paragraph 10(a), you have stated that the reason, the political objective you sought to achieve was to deprive the then South African State the monopoly of violence used and create an environment and climate of war, particularly in towns and places used for leisure and entertainment by whites.
	That is Mr Steenkamp's problem, there is no mention there specifically of attacking members of the Security Force.  That is the explanation you must give to Mr Steenkamp.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: The understanding of the statement is that those who served in the Defence Force, those who served in the Police, would after having carried out operations against you know, innocent people, used the Wimpy, they would use the cinemas and whatever places as leisure places, and these people would be construed to be ordinary civilians.  This is what this insinuates in that paragraph.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you yourself had decided to use the word entertainment by whites, you didn't say entertainment by members of the Security Force?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No, but if you would notice that the whites there is "whites", that is what it was intended to express.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, can you just tell us from whom did you get your instructions in specifically carrying out the Wimpy Bar attack or the Katlehong attack, both those incidents, from whom did you receive your instructions?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I think the Commander has dealt with the matter by saying that we meet every Wednesday to review, to plan and take decisions.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell me who is the person called Vusi, do you know who Vusi was?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Vusi, yes I know who he was.  I know him by the name of Vusi.  He served in the front command in Botswana.  I don't know his other name.

ADV STEENKAMP: You see again sir, unfortunately if I look at your amnesty application, page 9, paragraph 11(b) the question there is who gave such order and approval, you didn't refer to your Commanding Officer, applicant 1, you referred to Mr Vusi.
	Can you elaborate on that?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, in so far as Vusi served as a post box in the front command.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can I ask you then maybe just before I go to the Wimpy Bar attack, why didn't you refer to the first applicant and say he was my Commanding Officer and I received my instructions from him?  Why didn't you state it there?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: That has been stated on page 9.

CHAIRPERSON: What has been stated?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: That I received commands from a person known only to me as Vusi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is not the question.  The question is why didn't you in answer to that question say that the first applicant, the first witness in fact gave me the orders.  That is the question.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: He did not give me orders because we would sit in a plannery to decide on actions to take.

ADV STEENKAMP: Coming to the Wimpy Bar attack, what information did you have, or what information did you receive about the Wimpy Bar before deciding to attack it?
	Did you get reports and from whom did you get the reports, or did you have informers, how did you manage to get the information on the Wimpy Bar?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I think we have explained this.  We have also mentioned it in our main submission, that we were sitting every Wednesday to give individual commands as a command structure, and we would then discuss, deliberate on individual reports, make recommendations and take decisions on the basis of that information.
	The main source of information with regard to Wimpy came from fellow applicant Alfas.

ADV STEENKAMP: So he informed you about the Wimpy Bar and the possibility of a target and all that, am I right?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, by way of reporting to the Unit, yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: And who decided ultimately that the Wimpy Bar should be attacked, was it you or who was it?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: All of us, we decided on it.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me, at the time why did you think the Wimpy Bar, or how did you see the Wimpy Bar as a military target, or did you see it then, can you explain to me how did you see it as a legitimate target, let's put it that way?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I think the matter has been answered by my fellow applicant in his submission that the place was frequented by top brass Security personnel.

ADV STEENKAMP: What would you say to the possible question or the possible information that I attained, that the attack on the Wimpy Bar as far as the official ANC statement goes, was not part and parcel of ANC policy?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Can you repeat the question for me please.

ADV STEENKAMP: According to information we received which is not verified, what is your comment if I make the suggestion or if I tell you according to the ANC's official statement, the attack on the Wimpy Bar, this specific Wimpy Bar, was not part and parcel of the ANC policy at the time?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Steenkamp, won't you rephrase your question because there hasn't been any evidence led before us to suggest that the information that is contained in the press report, is official ANC information?

ADV STEENKAMP: You have heard, you have listened to my comment on the newspaper remark, you have heard that, am I right?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I think it has been ...

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you comment?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, it has been explained that Wimpy became the target in so far as it was frequented by that Security personnel.
	It was an area which became an interest, a target of interest to us, in so far as the Security personnel frequented the area.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you verify the information that you got from Mr Ndlovu, that at that stage Security Branch Police Officers and high brass as you call them, would most probably have visited that Wimpy Bar on that Saturday?  Did you have information to that extent?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: It has just been explained that we got information from the former detainees and we also relied extensively on the information forthcoming from Mr Ndlovu.

ADV STEENKAMP: That on that specific Saturday, please help me if I am wrong, that on that specific Saturday, Security Branch high brass will visit the Wimpy Bar at twelve o'clock, is that what you are saying?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No, I think that you must understand that we are not saying that the Security Branch personnel stayed in Wimpy.  We have information to the extent that these people frequented the area, they met there.

ADV STEENKAMP: No, no, sir, I am talking about this specific day.  Why did you decide to attack the Wimpy Bar on this specific day?
	The only reason I can see is because on that specific day, there was a possibility or you had very good information, that Security Branch Police will be at the Wimpy Bar, high brass?