Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR SINGH:  To your unit.

WITNESS:   To the unit.

MR SINGH:  And you waited for assistance to come.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  And you said that special constables came to your vehicle and put items which they had taken from the houses onto the vehicle, is that right?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MR SINGH:  Then you said that vehicles from the Riot Unit came and parked next to you.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  And you said that this was at Vulisaka.

WITNESS:   Yes.  If I say Vulisaka, if I am putting this estimation from Vulisaka to KwaShange, across to the hill.  That's about four to five ks - kilometres away where the incident was took place.

MR SINGH:  Did you have a clear view of the things that were taking place?

WITNESS:   Ja.  I could see everything, because that's why I say there was starting to be daylight.

MR SINGH:  Then you said Mr Ntombela's vehicle came up with his son driving it, is that right?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  And Mr Philip Powell was in the motor vehicle.

WITNESS:  That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Now, in your statement you say that Mr Ntombela he came on foot.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  And you said that he spoke to some members of your unit.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  And in your statement you said that Mr Ntombela said that the unit should not interfere with what was going on in the valley.  Is that right?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Now, in the statement you say that the special constables continued to load items onto this vehicle.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  And you said that you noticed that many of the houses below you were burning, is that right.

WITNESS:   That's correct, ja.

MR SINGH:  Now, where did the truck go from there?

WITNESS:   The truck left the scene at KwaShange and then he left to KwaMafunze.  If I say KwaMafunze, that's where I realised David Ntombela was staying.

MR SINGH:  Who drove the truck?

WITNESS:   That was Constable Duma.

MR SINGH:  Now, you said in your statement that you saw the special constables driving cattle as well.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Where did they drive the cattle?

WITNESS:   The cattle was taken down to same place where the truck was parked.  If I say same place, it's by David Ntombela's house.

MR SINGH:  So the truck with all the stolen goods on and the cattle were taken to Mr Ntombela's house.

WITNESS:   That's correct.  That's where I last I saw the thing was parked, and the cattle was there.

MR SINGH:  Now, where did you go after that?

WITNESS:   Then into the - so I say I jumped into the kombi, because of the kombi was the people who I worked with then.

MR SINGH:  Were these people from the Riot Unit?

WITNESS:   That's correct, ja.

MR SINGH:  And where did you go?

WITNESS:   We patrolled actually another different area.

MR SINGH:  Did you make a report of what you had seen to your unit?

WITNESS:   On this specific moment I think my superior on the vehicle he was busy on the radio.  Well, I don't know if he recall exactly what he's find onto the scene.

MR SINGH:  Well, when you got back to your unit did you make any report of what had happened?

WITNESS:   Ja.  We came to the unit, and the man I believe now he's the director.

MR SINGH:  Who is he?

WITNESS:   That's Colonel Meyer.  He was a Colonel Meyer before.  And then he asked us what was happening there.

MR SINGH:  And did you tell him?

WITNESS:   On that moment the man was doing talking with this one, my superior.

MR SINGH:  Who was that?

WITNESS:   It was Sergeant de Wet.

MR SINGH:  Did Sergeant de Wet tell Colonel Meyer what had happened?

WITNESS:   While I was with him only brief him halfly according to the scene.

MR SINGH:  So, just to summarise the whole thing, are you saying that the special constables attacked those houses in KwaShange, fired shots, and removed items from the houses, and drove cattle away from those houses.

WITNESS:   That's correct, so far as I saw with my eyes. Now, had you worked with special constables before?  ---   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Where?  In Pietermaritzburg or in Mpumalanga, or where did you work with them?

WITNESS:   I can't recall.  A lot of places where I was working with them.

MR SINGH:  And what sort of work were the special constables doing?   Were they doing ordinary police work?

WITNESS:   Basic when the special constables arrive at the unit they was told - because a lot of them they came from Elandskop.  They was told - I don't know how can I put these words in Engels.  "Hulle was verduidelik om saam met die IFP te werk"

MR SINGH:  Okay, I'll just translate for you.  They were told that they had to work with the IFP.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Now, who told them that?

WITNESS:   On that specific thing I can put on this point first.  On this kombi what I'm talking about, the kombi was informed by the unit.  The only thing on this kombi they was informed to assist the IFP.  And these special constables - so I recall one incidence back also where was Constable Ray Ngcobo, he was took out from the special constables to work with them because everything what was done before he didn't like it.  And he was put inside to work in the garden.

MR SINGH:  So are you saying that the special constables were formed - or they were created as a group or as a unit in order to assist the IFP?  Is that what you're saying?

WITNESS:   That's correct as far by my knowledge.

MR SINGH:  Because this is what has been told to us by other policemen.  Captain Brian Mitchell informed us that special constables - in fact he used the word that in Pietermaritzburg and Mpumalanga the special constables were the third force.  He said that they were specifically created and used to ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  To assist the IFP and to eliminate UDF/ANC people.  That is what he told us.

WITNESS:   That's correct, ja.

MR SINGH:  Is that also your understanding of the special constables?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Now, did the people in your unit - did your superiors also have that knowledge and understanding?

WITNESS:   So far as by my knowledge, yes.  I realised they were knowledge about it.

MR SINGH:  Mr Shabangu, you've - I am not sure whether I got you correctly.  You spoke about your unit, that is the unit working within Unit Eight, consisting of Delport, de Wet, Mchunu, Zuma and yourself.

WITNESS:   That's correct, ja.

MR SINGH:  You were also a separate unit, as I understood you, and your task was to assist the IFP.

WITNESS:   That's correct, ja.

MR SINGH:  Which Delport is this we're talking about?  What's his first name?

WITNESS:   I couldn't remember his name, but I believe he's working at the Vehicle Theft Unit.

MR SINGH:  And the de Wet?

WITNESS:   I believe he's working in the Suspect Staff.

MR SINGH:  Do you remember his first name?

WITNESS:   It's Willem de Wet.

MR SINGH:  Mchunu?

WITNESS:   Mchunu, only I think I know his initial.  He's M M.

MR SINGH:  And Zuma?

WITNESS:   Zuma, only the name what I know what the people call him, they says Pay Zuma.

MR SINGH:  Pay?

WITNESS:   Pay Zuma.

MR SINGH:  Which police officer was in charge of the specials?

WITNESS:   Firstly this branch was informed at the unit before Deon Terblanche was passed away.

MR SINGH:  So was - are you saying Terblanche was in charge of the specials as part of being in charge of the unit?

WITNESS:  He was the commander of the unit, but the man was in charge of our section now was Sergeant de Wet.

MR SINGH:  What was Tukkie van den Heever responsible for?

WITNESS:   I didn't hear this message.

MR SINGH:  Van den Heever, what was he responsible for?

WITNESS:  The only thing what I could remember - well, I already make some statements, you're going to receive it later, about this.