Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

UNKNOWN: If I understand things correctly then, there were, could have been no other shooting going on in the intersection at that time.  Do you agree with me?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I agree with you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: You will agree that whatever shooting was emanating from the or alleged shooting was emanating from Christopher Piet had to have been past, because he was already down, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

UNKNOWN: You will agree that Jabu Miya did not have a firearm, correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I will agree.

UNKNOWN: You will recall that Jabu Miya is one of the people who was found, allegedly, with a hand grenade at his left hand, lying in NY3?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: In NY111, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: You will also agree that the person allegedly shot by Mr Bellingan is a person who was not armed or not, did not have a firearm on him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am aware.

UNKNOWN: It would appear that at the time that you saw Mr Mlifie, who is the person that you shot, his firearm was still stuck in his pants, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is what I said when I saw it when he raised his arms, that his firearm was tucked inside his belt.

UNKNOWN: So, are we then correct in saying that there could not have been any other shooting emanating from the alleged deceased in the intersection at the time that you pull up there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You mention the fact that you hear shots, but you say quite specifically that those shots came from the bushes that are marked in the diagrams, marked RSQP?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Correct.

UNKNOWN: And other than that shooting that was going on there, there was no other shooting in the intersection?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No.

UNKNOWN: Your attention is then attracted to the only other shots which can be going off at that point and that is the shooting of Mr Konile, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is positive.

UNKNOWN: You say that you saw the first shot that was fired at Mr Konile, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You have been asked questions about this by the council for Captain Bellingan, you showed the Committee a motion in terms of which you were pulling the person past your body and you indicated that that was the motion that had been done by Captain Bellingan in respect of Mr Konile.  Am I correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Am I correct in saying that the motion that you showed reflects the right profile of Mr Konile being pulled past Captain Bellingan?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

UNKNOWN: Am I correct in saying, then, that the possibility that Mr Bellingan, in fact, fired the first shot in the right-hand side of Mr Konile's head is perfectly plausible then?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It is.

UNKNOWN: You say you never saw the second shot?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it should also be recorded, I should have recorded it at the time, that the gentleman with whom he demonstrated was an extremely large, well built man.

UNKNOWN: I am indebted to you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I think during the course of his evidence, going to clear this up, but you can, perhaps, explore it now, he said he pulled him and he pulled him down.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.
	So, from what you are saying, then, it is perfectly plausible that, at least, the first shot went into the right side of Mr Konile's head above the ear?  It is plausible from what you say, you will agree?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I will not deny it.

UNKNOWN: You saw that happening?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I saw it the way I demonstrated for the Committee.

UNKNOWN: Now, did you see this person falling on the floor?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, the time he fell, I did not see when he fell on the floor or on the ground.

UNKNOWN: The second shot that you heard being fired, are you convinced that it sounded as loud and in the same proximity as the first shot that you heard fired?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It was on the same place, same direction.

UNKNOWN: Is that why you say that it sounded like it came from Mr Bellingan as well?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

UNKNOWN: Now, having dealt with the third deceased who was found in that area, we have already, we know that Jabu Miya is already lying on the ground, we know that Christopher Piet is already out of action with his AK47, we now know that Konile is not going to do anything further, he is lying in the intersection.  What other shooting is going on in the intersection, Mr Mbelo?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Does Mr Williams ask about the man I shot?

UNKNOWN: No, I am asking what shooting.  You see, the Committee is being given the impression that there is a fuselage of shots going on in the intersection, but it does not appear to be the case.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, there were no more shots in the intersection after this four people were down.  It was quiet.

UNKNOWN: So, what made it so difficult for you, then, to decide not to shoot Mr Mlifie.  It could not have been the shots that were going on in the intersection, because there were none, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

UNKNOWN: It was quiet, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is what I said.

UNKNOWN: You had the opportunity to consider the matter, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I had.

UNKNOWN: We have heard very little about what was happening down the, on the western section of NY3, which is basically where you were.  You were standing in the intersection, but you had a view down the western section of NY3?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I had a view.

UNKNOWN: Do you recollect any vehicle standing down there at any stage?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes.

UNKNOWN: At what stage was that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The time I arrived, I parked my car here.  That is when I saw this vehicle standing there, because when I took the, that road behind the Dairy Belle Hostel there was no car there.  So, it may happen that while I was behind the Dairy Belle Hostel, that car arrived there at that time.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any knowledge of the death of the deceased who was lying in that field?  I am not talking about two of the deceased that had been lying in the bushes in the western, north-western bushes.  It is the deceased that is lying sort of in the, I think he is referred to as, at point P, on your diagram.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No.

UNKNOWN: You did not see that person falling?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No.

UNKNOWN: In your own opinion, Mr Mbelo, and judging by the instruction that had been given to you and in view of the fact that most of the deceased in this matter have serious injuries to their heads, would you agree that the inference is almost inescapable that they were meant to be killed?  What do you say about that, as being a policeman and part of that team?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I can tell, Mr Chairman, only one thing.  According to what happened that day and according to what they told me, not to arrest that man, I came to the conclusion of one thing, nobody wanted to arrest those people, because Jimmy and Eric could have been exposed if those guys were arrested.

UNKNOWN: Right.  Could you tell us what happened after this incident?  Was there a little celebration held?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I heard they talk about any celebrations, we were not part of it, we Black guys.  I hear that Captain Bellingan was there, so there was no celebration for us.

UNKNOWN: Did you stay in Cape Town with Captain Bellingan, as he said, for some weeks, possibly even a month after this incident occurred?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: When I remember correctly, this Guguletu story, we took about three months here in the Cape Town.  We stayed about three months, after three months we went back to Pretoria.