Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-10

JUDGE PILLAY: You have acknowledge that he was not released on that day, he was technically released but he was still detained?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, detained because from there on he drove with me to Bloemfontein and from there to Komatiepoort.

JUDGE PILLAY: Then how can we depend on that document?

MR DU PLESSIS: I feel that you can. The document shows the date on which he was released and we said that from there we took him to Komatiepoort, there's no other place that I can think of.  I do not even want to think about it, where one could detain somebody in "Kommunikado" in Jeffrey's Bay or any other police station for two months, I cannot see that this is possible.

MR JANSEN: Do I understand you correctly if you say that although we can accept that Kondile was not released on the 10th of August, that head office thought that he was released?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct, he was physically taken out of his cell on the 10th.

MR JANSEN: Yes, we know the version, but head office - and you needed their authorisation for that?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee's situation in 1989 when he testified, when there was no question of any amnesty or that he was testifying for purposes of amnesty, a person in your situation who handed in the application in December 1996, would you agree with me that there is more reason for you to colour in the political motive a bit more?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, you could say that.

MR JANSEN: Because cruel senseless torture - would you agree with me, would possibly not qualify for something which is politically relevant?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not want to debate that, one is here to speak the truth and if one has done something one is to say so whether one is going to be given amnesty or not.

MR JANSEN: Which desk did you man at the Port Elizabeth Branch?

MR DU PLESSIS: I was in control of black affairs and investigations.

MR JANSEN: Black affairs and investigations?  What did you have to do regarding investigations?

MR DU PLESSIS: That was all political observations and investigations.

MR JANSEN: So you were very closely involved in the charging of offences which were of a political nature?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: So you were also as a result, involved in the investigation of the bomb attacks which took place in Port Elizabeth during that time?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I was the co-ordinator.

MR JANSEN: You could perhaps just go to your application, it starts on page 14.  When you compiled this application, how did you refresh your memory regarding such specific dates such as 10 July, 24 July etc?

MR DU PLESSIS: I have an idea that this is documentation or dates which we obtained from other documentation amongst one another.

MR JANSEN: How did you remember the name of Roy Otto?

MR DU PLESSIS: I could still - the name rang a bell.

MR JANSEN: You met this person once 17 or sorry, 15 years previously and you remember the name?

MR DU PLESSIS: I won't say that on my own I could remember him completely but when he was described and it was said that he was Roy Otto and that he was there, I accepted it as such.

MR JANSEN: So someone gave you the name?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, we spoke about it.

MR JANSEN: Who gave you the name?

MR DU PLESSIS: I cannot remember whether it came from General van Rensburg, I don't want to say that he said it I'm not sure.

MR JANSEN: What did Mr Otto look like?

MR DU PLESSIS: He was approximately my height if I can remember correctly, he had a rather round face and at that stage he was balding slightly.  I won't say that he was completely bald but he had curly hair.

MR JANSEN: If you look at the second paragraph of your description of the Kondile incident, why was Kondile transferred from Bloemfontein to the Eastern Cape?

MR DU PLESSIS: At our request.

MR JANSEN: To find out what from him?

MR DU PLESSIS: At that stage it was policy that if a person came from Port Elizabeth and went to another area - except if he had committed a crime in another section, then the region which he left did the investigation as was the case in his case.
	At that stage we had bomb attacks and we had information regarding insurgents and that's why we wanted him, we also exerted pressure on him.  Bloemfontein did not want to give him to us at that stage.

MR JANSEN: So everyone - it seemed, wanted Kondile at that stage?  Please go to page 69 of the document, can you just explain to the Commission what document this is?

MR DU PLESSIS: This is an encrypted message sent from Port Elizabeth to head office with a copy for Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: This office - that's paragraph two, has information that the subject joined the persons who were responsible for the bomb attack in P.E., he joined them to Lesotho, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: So, you also asked Mr Kondile about these bomb attacks as to who was involved?

MR DU PLESSIS: I asked him about many things and I believe amongst others, about this as well, yes.

MR JANSEN: Did the interrogation of Mr Kondile lead to the arrest of a single person who was responsible for bomb attacks?

MR DU PLESSIS: It did lead to arrests later, I wouldn't say directly as a result of him but he was the starting point at that stage which place us on the correct road, those arrests.  And we also knew at that stage who were the people responsible for these bomb attacks because he knew who they were.

MR JANSEN: You are also aware of the fact - let me just sketch a scenario.  You are interrogating Kondile and you want to find out who are the people involved in bomb attacks and at that stage nothing leads to a direct arrest, the next thing that happens is that on the 8th of August, a bomb explodes in East London - sorry, the 7th of August - no, I'm wrong, the 6th of August a bomb explodes in East London and on the 8th of August, a bomb explodes in a shopping centre in Port Elizabeth, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: Perhaps you can just verify this, you looked a the news reports?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, the dates are just not clear to me.

MR JANSEN: On page 22 of that small bundle you will see a report which give a summary of all the bomb attacks throughout the country - it's the small volume of newspaper clippings Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you just either call it Volume 4 so that one knows what you're referring to?

<UNKNOWN>: ...[inaudible}

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now, let there be some clarity on what constitutes Volume 4.

MR JANSEN: Sorry Mr Chairman, Volume 4 is a bundle consisting of 44 pages of newspaper clippings dating from the period 1981 and more specifically August and September.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Very well, from now on that will be referred to as Volume 4.

MR JANSEN: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
	You concede that the dates which are indicated, that one could accept them as correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I believe so.

MR JANSEN: It is also mentioned specifically by General Erasmus in his background with regards to this bomb attack at the Constantia Centre?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: Is it pure coincidence that Kondile two days after the Constantia bomb, that he was released then?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is pure coincidence, yes.

MR JANSEN: Pure coincidence?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: The person who possibly had information regarding people who were busy injuring innocent women and children and you release him two days after that?

MR DU PLESSIS: He knew nothing about that bomb attack.  He said who was responsible, who could have been responsible but further he could not assist us.

MR JANSEN: He could possibly have told you who had planted the bomb?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, he told us who had planted it before the time.