Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

THABATHA NGOZO: He died on November the 20th, a Saturday afternoon, 1993 the year.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you also tell us as far as your knowledge serves you, did the deceased belong to any political party?

THABATHA NGOZO: He was ANC member.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us what was his occupation?  What did he used to do for a living?  Just before he died, or when he was killed.

THABATHA NGOZO: He worked for Alert Industries Security in Alrode.

ADV STEENKAMP: Am I correct in saying this now near Germiston?

THABATHA NGOZO: It's very close to Tokoza.  Alrode South that is.

ADV STEENKAMP: And what type of work did he do there?

THABATHA NGOZO: He was a security guard.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now before we get to the incident itself, do you know the applicant before the Committee today?

THABATHA NGOZO: I know him as a neighbour.

ADV STEENKAMP: For how long have you been knowing him?  That is, how long did he stay next to you?

THABATHA NGOZO: Since his birth, to date.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know, the deceased, if there was any connection between the deceased and the applicant?  Were they friends, or what was the situation?

THABATHA NGOZO: He grew in front of him.  He grew up, in other words.

ADV STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying you are opposing the application of the applicant, because you are of the view point that he's not making a full disclosure.  Am I right?

THABATHA NGOZO: Yes, I dispute all this, because he has not yet begin to tell the truth.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now, in short, can you tell us why you're saying that?

THABATHA NGOZO: First of all, he did not make mention of all the people he was with that day in question.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present?

THABATHA NGOZO: Yes I was present, but I did not see him when they shot him.  I only met them as they were running away after the incident.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you maybe just give us the names of the other people that you've seen at the incident, at the time when he was killed?  Can you maybe just relate the names to us?

THABATHA NGOZO: Yes.  I can furnish you with the names.  It was Dankiso, Siphiso who is in prison, Vusi as well is in prison, Oupa is in the residential areas at home, Mulefe is in prison as well.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now you've heard the evidence of the applicant when he testified that, as far as he was concerned, the deceased was an informer for the internal stability unit.  Do you have any comment on that?

THABATHA NGOZO: Yes, I would like to say something in relation to this.  First of all, the reason why they labelled him as an informed.  In 1992 Mulefe came to me together with my other brother, not the deceased.  He said he will like us to talk to Auri and stop Auri, and I asked him as to what he has done.  He said, in answering, he is one of the people rendering evidence with regard to the stolen car.  A car that was stolen by Beki.  I don't know with other people, but he only mentioned Beki's name to us.  And I said to him, how can we possibly stop him because he works as a security man and we are not even present there.  We have no idea and we bear no knowledge.  And he said, please talk to him, they must never be convicted.  These people, that is.  And I spoke to Auri, and I asked him if he knew or bore any knowledge with regard to this, and Auri said, yes, he knew, and he was at work and there is no way he can withdraw or implement the request made by these gentlemen.  This is not within him in other words.  Mulefe left and came back again one day.  The case was going on at the Court, about the stolen car.

ADV STEENKAMP: The applicant before the Committee today was also present at the time in Court, and the case was proceeding?

THABATHA NGOZO: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: In other words, was he actually charged with this incident?

THABATHA NGOZO: Beki was convicted.  There was nothing emerging as such until their conviction.  After that, after their conviction in other words, Mulefe came back once again and said, I previously requested you to speak or talk to your brother that my colleagues must not be convicted, but all of that was to no avail.  And I answered him and said there was nothing we could do, this was not within us, and he was working as a security man and we are therefore ineffective in this.
In 1993 on the 20th of November he was killed, and was labelled as an informer of the police subsequently.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you think there was any political context or motivation for the killing of your brother, as far as you were concerned?

THABATHA NGOZO: I think this was a criminal act, because if it was political I don't think he would have been killed since he was an ANC member.

ADV STEENKAMP: Are you aware, was he ever involved in any political activity, in the specific area where he was staying?

THABATHA NGOZO: In Vosloorus where he resided I have no information pertaining to that because he was not living with us.  He had his own house in Vosloorus.  All I know is that he was an ANC member.

ADV STEENKAMP: My last question to you.  Is there anything else you would like to add to your testimony?

THABATHA NGOZO: In summing up this whole evidence, I have no forgiveness whatsoever, because I tried to plead with them.  I even asked them if they, if he was owing them, and if that was the case I was prepared to pay and reimburse, but they killed him fatally and in a strange house.  And they broke, and they damaged so much property in that house, and in summation I will say I have no forgiveness towards these gentlemen.

ADV STEENKAMP: That will be the testimony.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand your evidence correctly that you spoke to them before they killed your brother?

THABATHA NGOZO: Yes, I did speak to them before the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you ask them?

THABATHA NGOZO: Firstly, I asked why they were killing them.  Then they said an informer must be killed.  And I said, who did he inform on, then they said that's none of my business, it had nothing to do with me.  And I said please do not kill him, I will even give you money if this is what you need.  I will even pay you instead of you killing him.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time when you pleaded with them for his life, you were told that he was going to be killed because he was at least thought of as an informer?

THABATHA NGOZO: They told me at that point in time when I was talking to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane have you got any questions?

MR SHANE: Just one Mr Chairman.  Would you agree that there were, Mrs Thabatha, a lot of informers for the police at the time, in the township?

THABATHA NGOZO: No, I have no knowledge in as far as that is concerned.

MR SHANE: Would you also agree that if a person was an informer, it is not something he would brag about or even let anybody know about, he would keep that a secret, so that if your late brother was in fact an informer for the internal stability unit it's not something that you would have known about.  He would have kept it secret from you like all informers did.  Would you agree with me?

THABATHA NGOZO: I will like to reiterate the fact that I was not living with him.  All I know is that he was a security man.  As to his activities I bear no knowledge.

MR SHANE: The applicant instructs me that he has no knowledge of any person Mulefe or Oupa, as mentioned by you.

THABATHA NGOZO: I have no amnesty, or I have no forgiveness for Tankiso because the one who was busy behind the location of the late, was Tankiso, he was the one behind them discovering or finding the late in the house.

MR SHANE: The applicant also denies that he was ever charged with a stolen car, or knows anything, I'm talking from the applicant, not from any other person, but from the applicant, knows nothing about any stolen car as mentioned by yourself.