Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR UNTERHALTER: Did she say anything to you as to whether you should or should not testify before the Truth Commission?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No,she just said I should wait and I told her that I wanted to go.  Mgojo went back and I also went back.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did you consult with any of her legal advisers, Mrs Mandela's legal advisers or not?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, I didn't.

MR UNTERHALTER: Can I ask you just a few supplementary questions.  Were you subpoenaed to come and give evidence before the Truth Commission?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I did get a subpoena, although it didn't have my surname on it.

MR UNTERHALTER: You have made reference to a person called Todo, could that person be Jacob Todo Mahope?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: And lastly, do you know whether there are any family links between Zinzi Mandela and Sizwe Sithole?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I do.

MR UNTERHALTER: What is that link?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Sizwe is Zinzi's daughter's father, Bambatha.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR UNTERHALTER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ntombeni, the last time we called you to give evidence, you heard Mr Semenya objecting.  He alleged that we had bribed you, is there any truth in this allegation?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, there is nothing of that sort.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, maybe for correctness, I communicated to the TRC that I have information that the witness has been offered money.  I didn't make the allegation that the witness was bribed.  To put it at that level would mean that I am making the allegation, I communicated an information which was given to me.  To me those are two different things.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Semenya.

MR VALLY: And he is correct, I also have to record that we have yet to get Mr Semenya to prove this but the witness will be under cross-examination by Mr Semenya.  I am sure he could put it to him.
 You are presently under the witness protection of the TRC, is that correct?

GIFT NTOMBENI: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Just some of the statements you have made when you were led by your Advocate, I want to ask you about the incident where you refer to I think you said Zinzi carved certain letters into someone's chest?  Do you recall that?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I do.  I was present on that day.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us where this happened?

GIFT NTOMBENI: It happened at the shack, the shack that we called Lusaka within Mrs Mandela's yard.

MR VALLY: Do you recall who the people were who these things were done to?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, I don't remember the victim.

MR VALLY: If I refer to the Makanda brothers, do that ring a bell at all?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I don't remember them.

MR VALLY: Do you recall a criminal case which followed in which Mr John Morgan, Mr Absolom (indistinct) and Mr Isaac Maroho were charged for this incident?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I remember very vaguely.

MR VALLY: Let's just go on to another question.  You have mentioned a few times the name Nomzamo, who are you referring to?

GIFT NTOMBENI: It is Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

MR VALLY: You also talked about the whole situation regarding complaints being brought to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.  There has been an interview with a Mr Lerothodi Ikaneng, a radio interview.
 He stated that people would come to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house with various complaints or accusations and these would be reported to the boys at the gates who would report them in the book.  Do you have any knowledge of this?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I do have knowledge of that.

MR VALLY: Is it true that these accusations were recorded in a book?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, that is true.

MR VALLY: What would happen thereafter?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Then we would go out and hunt that person down.

MR VALLY: And what would happen after that?

GIFT NTOMBENI: If we get those persons or that person, we would bring them back into the yard, and we would start assaulting them and disciplining them.

MR VALLY: Was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela present at these assaults?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, she would be present.

MR VALLY: Would she participate in these assaults?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, she would assault some and she didn't assault others.

MR VALLY: Do you know what Shoes' real name is?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, I do not.

MR VALLY: Do you know the name Ronnie Sikokone?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, I don't recall that name.

MR VALLY: You mentioned that you were contacted by Mgojo and that is not the Rev Dr Mgojo, who contacted you after you had been subpoenaed to give evidence here before us.  Did you see him at this hearing on any of these previous days?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, he is present.

MR VALLY: Is he present today?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, he is.

MR VALLY: Can you see him from where you are?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, I think he is outside, I can't see his face.

MR VALLY: Let's go on.  Regarding the incident of Maxwell Modondo where you stated that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela came by, I believe you said it was in a red Audi, the scene where the body of Maxwell Modondo was.  Do you recall your evidence there?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I do.

MR VALLY: I want to read to you what Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said about this incident when we asked her about it at the second Section 29 inquiry, page 151.  I will read you the questioning as well as the answer.
 On this occasion Mr Pigou was asking the questions.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, the transcript into the State versus Ikaneng case, the murder of Maxwell Modondo, one of the State witnesses only named as witness B, says that shortly after the murder of Modondo his body was moved across to the other side of the street by Sibusiso Chili and that when the body had been moved across there, while people was still standing around, he saw you in a vehicle looking at the scene at what was there.  This is may I remind you, a State witness against the murderers of Mr Modondo.  This sight of you in a vehicle is repeated by Mr Sibusiso Chili who was accused 6 in that case.  Were you at all present after the murder of Maxwell Modondo at the scene, did you see his body?  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's response, that is absurd Mr Chairman.  I am sure you can spend a lifetime going through the court files, getting all sorts of versions of all sorts of things that was said about me, at all sorts of trials.
 Mr Pigou, no but the relevance of this particular viewing of yourself and testimony given under oath by Defence witness and a State witness is that you were there.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, that is absolute rubbish Mr Chairman.  Mr Pigou, thank you.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela goes on, all sorts of versions were given under oath by the apartheid.  Mr Pigou, we are talking about this specific case, we are not talking - there are lots of interruptions -and then Mrs Madikizela-Mandela goes on, there is absolutely nothing new in what  you are telling me, it is absolute nonsense.
 Finally, and I ignore the interventions, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ends of by saying I was nowhere near that scene, it is the first time I am hearing from you.
 So Mrs Madikizela-Mandela very strongly denies that she was on the scene, what is your response to her denial?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I saw her personally because I was approaching from Lerothodi's place and I identified the car in which she was driving, a red Audi.

MR VALLY: Let's go on.  Did you personally witness Tholi, I believe his surname is Dlamini, being shot by Sizwe Sithole?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I was present when Tholi Dlamini was shot by Sizwe Sithole.

MR VALLY: My final question is, have you at any stage made a statement to the police about any of these incidents that you have witnessed and you are giving evidence to us today about?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, I never submitted any statement except for Tholi's statement.

MR VALLY: Did you make a statement to the police saying that you were an eyewitness to the murder?