Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-04

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now Mr Dumakude, you've prepared and submitted an application for amnesty.  A copy of that is attached, Mr Chairman, to the statement.  Can I refer you to page 3 thereof and paragraph 9(a)i.  Then can I ask you why it is that your application does not deal with this specific incident?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: The reason for this was that at this time I was not aware whether all the operatives have applied for amnesty but I hope that the submission when it was demanded I was going to give it in detail.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do I understand you correctly that you envisaged a situation in which your application would have to be supplemented through the asking of questions by the TRC?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes I fully agree with your thinking.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Please will you read paragraph (a)i into the record?
MR DUMAKUDE
"Here I endorse the submission made by the ANC, uMkhonto weSizwe to the Truth Commission as well as the General National Executive declarations submitted to the Amnesty Committee.  I take the command responsibility for all acts which took place within South Africa committed by units under my command.  This will cover the period from 1981"
Why 1981?  Here it was a time when I finished with my training."

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think you should make it clear, what he is reading into the record and the explanations he is giving.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should just continue reading this paragraph into the record and you can then give your explanations.  You had come so far as to say you took all units under your command from 1981.  I think you should read on from there.

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Where these actions fall within the general policy guidelines of the African National Congress.  I do not know at this stage whether all the operatives have applied for amnesty but I hope that my submission will cover them if they have not.  Details regarding the task mandate of the Special Operations has been provided in the amnesty application of Abubaker Ismail, known as Rashid, and I endorse this.  If there are any operations for which I hold sole responsibility I will answer accordingly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Dumakude.  You were going to give us an explanation about the date of 1981, do you want to give that now?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes I do.  Why do I say from 1981?  Around this time I finished with my training and I've joined some of the instructors' panel to deliver the knowledge that I gained during my training.  Some of the operation, they might have been influenced by my contribution as an instructor during those years.
	Around 1982 until 1984, around Swaziland, I operated as part of the auxiliary staff where one way or another I contributed knowingly or unknowingly in the sense that I used to infiltrate material, personnel and maintaining communication with units inside the country.  	From 1984 I was re-deployed in Botswana where I continued with auxiliary tasks.  This was until 1987 around August, and from 1987 I took responsibility of the Special Operations Unit where some of the operations were sanctioned by me.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Dumakude, do you anticipate that there will be a further hearing in which you will deal with those operations in detail?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I'm hoping if the Chairperson or Truth Commission will be interested I will be available to provide this information.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr van den Berg if I may interpose for a moment?  What exactly is this meant to convey, is the witness trying to indicate that he is making an application for amnesty in respect of those incidents?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My instructions are that this application that you are hearing today is purely in respect of Ellis Park.  It is anticipated that arising from his amnesty application as it is presently formulated, there will be a request for further particulars and that at that time he will set out in detail those other operations.
	It is not my instruction that he applies here and now for all of those other actions in which he takes responsibility, of which he has personal knowledge and those which he does not have personal knowledge of; that is not the idea at all Mr Chairman.  The evidence given is purely by way of background.  I think Mr Chairman if I could wrap this up for your Committee by asking one last question to Mr Dumakude pertaining to Ellis Park?
	Mr Dumakude what is your attitude to the two persons who died and the persons who were injured during the explosion at Ellis Park?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Chairperson, if I'm allowed I've got two ways of answering it.  If the question was raised during the struggling years I was going to say there was no way of avoiding it but today the situation is totally different.  The answer is yes, there is a way of avoiding.  I'm saying sorry to those who lost their beloved ones.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

MR LANDMAN: Mr Dumakude is it correct that in relation to the two applicants Aggie Shoke and Harold Matshididi, you were a senior commander in M.K. whilst they were best be described as foot soldiers?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I fully agree with you.

MR LANDMAN: Would they have been obliged to follow your instructions without question?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: First as an M.K. operative you are trained first politically.  You'll only fulfil or carry out orders that are in line of the policy of the movement.  Immediately you take it upon yourself to carry out an M.K. operation, that means you fully understand and follow the policy of the movement.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Dumakude when you asked Mr Matshididi and Mr Shoke to participate or instructed them to participate in this operation could they have understood and rightly understood that because you, a senior commander, was instructing them that this was an operation in line with ANC and M.K. policy?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: To take you back, like I've indicated, before one is to deal with operations you are first drilled in the policies of the movement, meaning if you understand the policies of the movement you have got all the rights to defy whoever if the order is not in line with the policy of the movement.

MR LANDMAN: In this particular instance did you inform Mr Matshididi and Mr Shoke that you intended to detonate the bomb before people left the stadium?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: This was the plan as part of my mission to come and visit the unit inside the country, was to re-emphasise the concern of the leadership in the M.K. concerning the operations that were taking place where at times civilians were injured or killed.

MR LANDMAN: So was it the instructions from the higher echelons of M.K. that civilian casualties should be avoided?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: This is a policy of the ANC as the political body and the M.K. as a tool of this political body.

MR LANDMAN: Then Mr Dumakude when the car containing the bomb was driven to Ellis Park on that Saturday afternoon would Mr Matshididi and Mr Shoke have believed that that bomb would explode at a time when there wouldn't be civilians in the area?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: For sure I took it upon myself.  Somewhere in my document I've mentioned the three devices.  This was partly to counter any eventuality.  This was also explained to the comrades as the participant in this operation.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

DR TSOTSI: Mr Dumakude, just explain this, it's not quite clear to me that this question of the three devices how you were able to solve the situation which might occur if people had left before the time of the explosion.  You said the three devices, could you just explain that?  What these devices are and how their effect would be?