Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

MR WAGENER: Mr Nondula, have you see the statistics of this terror campaign of yours?  Have you see the results, the end results?

MR NONDULA: As you may know, I was physically, I was illusionally involved when the trial went on, I saw everything that was - I was supposed to have seen as evidence and photographical evidence and as verbal evidence given in a Court.

MR WAGENER: Can you deny that 25 people were killed in this landmine campaign, although you were not involved in all the incidents, 25 people were killed, of whom 24 were civilians?

MR NONDULA: I cannot deny.

MR WAGENER: So you killed only one our of 25 military personnel.

MR NONDULA: That must have been the case then.  I cannot deny those statistics.

MR WAGENER: And the 24 people killed, were they legitimate targets, according to your organisation, the ANC?

MR NONDULA: What was regarded as a legitimate target at that stage, was the personnel in this area that I believed to be military personnel, that was legitimate.

MR WAGENER: Yes.  And then you went on and you laid a mine on a farm where there's never been any military personnel and is that how you and your unit thought, how you were going to attack the military opponents?

MR NONDULA: Sir, it's quite regrettable that in a situation of intensity of conflict, that blood had to be shed, tears had to flow and in many, many cases, this is not only the only case, that some people do become victims, the innocent ones.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm sorry Mr Wagener, can I try to get some clarity here?  It doesn't appear very clear whether you were targeting specific roads to lay these landmines, or were you targeting a certain area, a zone, within which you were going to - you had instructions to lay the landmines, what was the debriefing?

MR NONDULA: The briefing Sir was the area in which we were going to operate is actually peopled with military personnel and thus to make our presence felt, we had to target the roads along the border where the military personnel travelled.

MR SIBANYONI: Was this area indicated in terms of the distance?  How long from the border itself, or what was the description?

MR NONDULA: The discretion at some point rested also with the Commander because we were briefed clearly that we should at least not be more than 10 kilometres from the border at least and in that case 10 kilometres from the border, it meant we had to be in the country and come back as soon as possible, before we could be vulnerable ourselves.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Wagener.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wagener, if I could just ask, while we're on this point.  It's a long border between Zimbabwe and South Africa.  Could you give us a closer description of where you actually crossed?  Do you know this area at all, Mr Nondula, now as you sit here?  Do you know, in relation to let's say Messina, where was it?  Was it towards the Kruger Park side, or was it towards the Botswana side, or how far from Messina more or less, that your unit, Agrippa's unit operated?

MR NONDULA: Yes.  Mr Chairperson, I am sorry, at this stage I will not be able to furnish you with the cases of the matter because I'm not very familiar with the terrain itself.  It was my first time to be inside South Africa, through this area, travelling at night, but from the map that we were given, the area was divided into two and I would simply say that from our point of view we were on the western side of the area, then the other unit was on the eastern side of the area, so I cannot really say to you if you move this direction then you'll see this place, in this kind of situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Wagener, may I just clarify something here?  Mr Nondula you described these roads as patrol roads.

MR NONDULA: Yes, Ma'am.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you sort of perhaps just clarify in relation to other roads, were they sort of like farm roads?  Were they secondary roads?  Were they primary roads, or isn't it possible for you to indicate?

MR NONDULA: Yes, I can, Ma'am.  The one identical road is the one that stretches along the border fence itself.  Now you also have the adjoining ones.  That means now as they patrol, they have to go around the area itself, so those are the roads I am talking about.

ADV BOSMAN: So it would most probably be sort of a tertiary road?  You'd have your main road, which is probably a tarred road and this is a - is it a dirt road along the border?

MR NONDULA: It's all dirt roads, Ma'am.

ADV BOSMAN: And you didn't plant anything on that road, but you planted it on the tertiary roads coming out of that road?

MR NONDULA: We planted one on that main road, before we crossed.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay.

MR NONDULA: That was the last one that we planted, but we went inside and moving along these secondary roads leading towards the main road, that's where we planted our landmines.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright.  Thank you.  Thank you Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Mr Nondula, to that very last response of yours, I put it to you that you are lying.  The mine that killed my client's family, was not on a road as you have just explained and he will lead evidence to that effect and I will hand up photographs showing this road, so I put it to you, you are lying.

MR NONDULA: You may say so, but ...(end of tape) transpired what happened.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR NONDULA: Ja.

MR WAGENER: You followed the gist of my submission that I put to you just now.

MR NONDULA: I followed it properly.

MR WAGENER: You understand what I'm saying?

MR NONDULA: I do understand you.

MR WAGENER: That we will present evidence showing that you're lying on this aspect.

MR NONDULA: As far as I am concerned at this stage, Sir, that is exactly what happened.

MR WAGENER: Did you have to climb through fences to get to the area where you laid this mine?

MR NONDULA: We did.

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MR NONDULA: Yes, we did.

MR WAGENER: Game fence?

MR NONDULA: Yes, that was during the day and what happened is at some point we were the first group in fact that went in.  They were able to move out earlier and early in that morning, we heard an explosion and it was a normal response that we may be in trouble, so we had to shift our position during the course of the day, we had to climb some fences and that happened on our way back, that is where we put the mines on the road moving back to the border.

MR WAGENER: I put it to you Mr Nondula, that the mine that killed my client's family was put on a small game road, if I may call it that, on a farm totally enclosed by game fence with no access by the public, no access by the military.  It was a private farm enclosed by game fence, what do you say about that?

MR NONDULA: Sir, as I've said earlier, I rather should put it clearly, in my knowledge then I didn't have a Mr De Nysschen that I knew, that I wanted to kill.  All that happened is I undertook instructions, I took instructions as they were given to me and executed them to the fullest.

MR WAGENER: In a question put to you by the Chairman, you said or you mentioned something about a map given to you.  Can you please tell us what this map was all about?

MR NONDULA: The map was actually the lay-out of how the roads from the border fence leading inside, how they looked like, just like a sketch.

MR WAGENER: Right.

MR NONDULA: That's all.

MR WAGENER: Did it show all the roads where the mines were to be laid?

MR NONDULA: Let me ...(indistinct) all the roads, it showed the area and the roads that you would expect to see when you come into the area and then where we could put them.

MR WAGENER: ;   Was it your instructions, in other words, that the mines should be laid on the roads as specified on this map?

MR NONDULA: Exactly Sir.

MR WAGENER: Those were your instructions?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Did you follow those instructions?

MR NONDULA: I did.