Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you agree with me that this was not part of your evidence?  This was not part of your evidence when you were led on this incident?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I would apologise that I would not agree with you because of one thing.  As I've said that this happened in 1985 and when I was writing, I wrote it as it is but here down it's written that we lit him and then the police even realised that, the Webber Police, came with the litre of petrol - it's Zekele Nkethle if I'm not mistaken, I think I did write that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm not saying you left that deliberately but what I'm saying is that when you were giving evidence today you did not mention this part, that's all.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is the truth.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's move to 20.3 to Thulani Hlongwani.  According to your evidence is it correct that Thulani Hlongwani was actually not your target at all?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes, that is the truth.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He was not your opposition?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: In that particular point in time he was not, yes he was not but when the command then he became my enemy then.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, I mean initially when you knew Thulani and when you were told go and kill him, he was not your target, he wouldn't have been your target, you wanted his brother, not him?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thus it cannot be said that he was tied, he was killed because of any of his political convictions?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Because no we can say that because of his brother.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 20.4 ...[indistinct] brother.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was Thulani's younger brother's membership with UDF ascertained?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes my friends actually said that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Look you were the commander not so?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I was the commander.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you have to be satisfied that this person is actually a member of the UDF before you can instruct the other guys to carry out the operation not so?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes although it is sad and painful I will answer you directly.  Even if it is Sgangi's mother, if we have met her at that particular point, even if it was Sgangi's father, we would have killed because Sgangi is the person who was actually perpetrating violence here so everything that belonged to his place we actually took it as a UDF.  We were actually not going directly to a person but the entire thing.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So will I be correct to state that Thulani's younger brother died for the same reasons as Thulani himself because of the relationship with their brother?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is the truth.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And he also was not your target?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: As much as the UDF did not have their targets they were actually killing the Teleweni so we also did not - I have to repeat this and expand on this. I'm trying to tell you that UDF and IFP did not actually really necessarily have a target.  If you were a UDF and you were seen somewhere at the corner, you were supposed to die.  If you are an IFP seen somewhere at the corner, you were supposed to die.  So they were targets in that sense but there was not particularly a direct command, that's what I'm trying to explain.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll go back to my initial question.  Okay ...[intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Mpshe, that question I'm getting a little confused.
	Mr Hlongwane, I thought when you gave evidence you stated that the primary objective of targeting any member of Sgangi's family was to lure Sgangi in, in order to eliminate him, that's how I understood your evidence in chief, that was your primary objective?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it's like that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It wasn't because Thulani was a member of the UDF?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is like that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You don't seem to be responding in that fashion to Mr Mphse's question.  Your evidence seems to have changed.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It's as though you're actually putting it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's keep that one then, I've got an answer.  20.5 - that's the killing of Mashu Shando.  You stated in your evidence that he had a tendency of taking children out of school and saying to them "freedom first, education after"?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes, that's what I said.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And he was killed for that.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that's the main reason and also because he was the UDF, because of that and also that he was a UDF member.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Over and above him being a member of the UDF he was killed because he wanted freedom?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Over and above that is that he was actually taking the children from school and telling the children not to be educated and taught.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's touch a little bit on Mashu ..[indistinct], the horrible way in which he was handled after his death.  Do you remember what you described to this Committee after killing him that you made him stand and for children to see?

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I don't recall.  I know that he was made to stand but I don't remember this specific reference about him being stand with the specific purpose of children ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think it was said that he was made to stand in what was described as a sewerage.  It's probably a drain next to the road for people going past to see.  I don't think necessarily he said for children to see, not in his evidence, I don't know if that was the purpose.  You can ask him but he was made to stand up in this place near the road for passers by to see.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I will find out from him.
	Am I not correct by stating that you said you made him stand there after killing him and it was when the children go to school would see him?  Didn't you mention the word children going to school?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now why did you have to do that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: We actually wanted to teach Sgangi a lesson, Thembiso a lesson that if you are opposing IFP doing what Mashu is doing, this is the way you will die.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's move to 20.7.  This is the incident where you killed the man you found in the house who was with a woman.  Was this man ever your target?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No he was not our target.  However because he was in the house of that particular person that we were looking for and the house that was well known to be UDF house, we could have burnt the house because the UDF member was in there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So this man also died for the same reasons as Thulani Hlongwane?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed, they are the same.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just a second, just bear with me?  This is about the killing of the neighbour who used the hose pipe, do you recall that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Am I right that once more he was not your political target?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No, that wouldn't be the truth, that person was our target because that the IFP member is actually announced that to the member of our central committee and that said that that person was a target.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Wasn't it because of Mrs Dlamini's complaint?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No but the decision was taken by the member of the central committee and then the decision went down to me and then that I must do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you had not yourself as a commander ascertained whether this person was actually your opponent, you did not ascertain that?