Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR CILLIERS: If my learned friend can just indicate where it comes from.  No documentation was given us for Dr Neethling, he was only given a subpoena, and if you can just indicate to use where we can find it and give us one of the bundle of documents of the other witnesses whom we also represent, then we'll be able to find it.

MR VALLY: Mr Cilliers the extension of bundles for his other clients, we did this morning give him this particular document again, and we pointed out the paragraph to him.

MR CILLIERS: We have found it.  Paragraph what?

MR VALLY: The 12th paragraph.

MR CILLIERS: On what page?

MR VALLY: The ...(indistinct) number is 4616, the typed number is 6.

MR CILLIERS: Yes, top paragraph?

MR VALLY: Top paragraph,
"Dr Basson also mentioned that Major-General Lothar Neethling was fully informed regarding project Jotta.  Dr Basson and General Neethling are using one another as sounding boards in the development and use of certain commodities.  Dr Basson, however, also mentioned that due to the court case regarding CCB activities, whereby General Neethling was involved, that he could possibly be embittered and be regarded as a wounded lion."
And this document is signed by Head of Staff Information, Lieutenant-General van der Westhuizen, for the information of the Surgeon-General.   So Dr Basson seems to indicate that you knew fully the production of all the commodities in terms of Operation Jotta, which included, I submit to you, both what Delta G was doing, and what RRL was doing.

GEN NEETHLING: May I answer.  I would like to say to you that what stands here is an outright lie, the name Jotta I have seen or heard for the first time today.  I've never heard of it in my life.  I deny that I was informed regarding this project.  I deny that I knew of any project of the Defence Force at any time.  I never had any information as do the Ministers and the Deputy-Ministers of Defence, because I was a pseudo Policeman,  that's point no 1.   Point no 2, the person who compiled this document must have his head read, he is ashamed to give me what's my due, because he signed this information on the 25th of March 1992, coming from the Defence Force with a strong discipline signed, Lieutenant-General C P van der Westhuizen.  I am seven years his senior.  For seven years I had already been a Lieutenant-General, when he was in his baby shoes, and he - I do not even want to blame him for that, but this is counter-information which is not worth the paper it's written on.  This is something that I have never known, the first time that I heard the word CCB was during the Harms Commission.  I was not informed about CCB activities, now it says that I am a embittered, wounded lion.  They must have their head read.  I am not at all cross with Dr Basson, I still respect him as I did 15 years ago.  That which I read about him recently, I do not want to believe that.  I would like this case to go to criminal court, that he can be found guilty of something which I do not think he is capable of doing.  Paragraph 22 is a lot of nonsense as far as I'm concerned, but if I look further at what they say about Jotta, then I agree that I know what Medchem is, I know what Delta G is, I know what Roodeplaat is and I know what Protechnic and Technotec is.  I have heard about Lifestyle, but I have had nothing to do with them yet.  Protechnic, I've purchased things, we've had things tested there, gas masks, etc.  Official Armscor channels were used with Protechnic, same with Technotec.  This whole programme of BSB is a misnomer, the programme called ABC, but the "A" is being left out, but perhaps we are ashamed of it.  In Afrikaans it's nuclear warfare.

MR VALLY: You've made your point, you denied ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: I am angry if I see this document that such nonsense is being shown to me.  I'm not only denying it, but ...(inaudible) is a maniac and a liar, and if it was C P van der Westhuizen, I say to him categorically just like the President said to General Meiring, why do you give me this rubbish.

MR VALLY: Right, thank you.  For the record, it's a letter dated 25th of March 1992, enquiries Lieutenant-General (Joffel) van der Westhuizen, who is the Head of Staff Information, and it was for the attention of the Surgeon-General.

GEN NEETHLING: He's here, you can ask him.

MR VALLY: I certainly will.

GEN NEETHLING: Thank you.

MR VALLY: I want to ask you another question.  I refer you to TRC 111, we have ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: Yes, I got that just now.

MR VALLY: Okay.

GEN NEETHLING: At the start, what page, this is a rather lengthy document.

MR VALLY: It is a lengthy document.  I did mark off the specific page for your attorneys at some point.  This is the Steyn report, the heading of this report is, "Staf geskrif vir die  - Steyn Commission regarding risky activities or SA components".  I refer you to page B11(iii).   I think ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: I got it, B11, yes.

MR VALLY: We first gave your attorneys just those two pages, then we gave them the full report.

GEN NEETHLING: Thank you.

MR VALLY: Now, you see the headings on top?

GEN NEETHLING: Yes, "persons involved in so-called poison murders".

MR VALLY: ...(inaudible) "persone betrokke, Brigadier W Basson, Generaal Lothar ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What page are you reading from, Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: It's B11, Mr Chairman, B11.

CHAIRPERSON: B11 of TRC 111.

MR VALLY: And (iii).  It's where the tables are.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry one.

MR VALLY: I don't know if you want me to read it out to you, let me do so quickly,
"From the old group Charles Naude, Special Forces (CCB), a group under the leadership of Brigadier W Basson which executed all elimination commands or orders.  General Lothar Neethling was intimately involved (evidence of these specific members obtainable).  Under evaluation it is recommended that all the information in the previous column be read first.  From the allegations are many questions which have to be answered before a meaningful evaluation can be made.  Due to the allegations ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: Perhaps I should continue.

MR VALLY: Please.

GEN NEETHLING: "the allegations, it seems as if there could possibly be truth in some of the allegations.  Reporting received during December 1992 alleges, amongst others, that certain members of DLE rushed around with Goldstone's visit because there were beer cans doctored with poison.  The explanation for the presence of the poison was that the Special Forces were to distribute it in Mozambique.  The Special Forces poisons received from Seventh Battalion which can be received, it's a poison which is a new product which can be applied in any way, made available by Brigadier Basson, however, it's not possible to make a meaningful evaluation before affidavits are obtained and further investigation is done."
What is your question?

MR VALLY: Do you see the allegation in this Steyn report regarding your, and the word is not mine, the word is, I believe, "General Lothar Neethling was intimately involved".

GEN NEETHLING: Just read the sentence before that, it says, "all elimination orders were supposed to have been carried out".  Let me just reply please, I want to say this to you.  It is the first time that I've seen that a Steyn report wants to incriminate me for whatever reason.

CHAIRPERSON: In your opinion that's correct, well not correct, but I read what I see, it does not appear that this is the Steyn report.  You know there has been a lot of dispute whether there was or was not a report.  It seems to me if you look at TRC 111, it says, "Staff memo for the Steyn Commission".  It is documentation that possibly was put before Steyn that may have then lead to the so-called report.  Whether it was ...(indistinct).  So, we're not talking about the Steyn report here, but I suppose you know it was ...(intervention)