Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

SISI KHAMPEPE: This was an important incident at the time, is it not so?  The bomb being at Sibasa police station, it was one of the very first incident of violence as it were in this region.  Is it not?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So much so that there was pressure as usual alleged in your papers, to put to bear on you to leave no stone unturned in your investigation?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you recall exactly what you did to certain people in order to try and extract the information that was necessary for you to proceed with the charges that you wanted to prefer against them.  In order to impress the authorities that you were effective.  Is it not so?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Therefor it would be something that one would expect you to remember if you hit somebody in his private parts, unless it is something that you would do ordinarily.

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to the private part dealing, well yes, I can't say I did kick him or that, I can't remember exactly or which side of the body.  I can't remember exactly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was kicking someone in his private parts a method that you would use ordinarily during your interrogation of suspects?

MR RAMALIGELA: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Therefor if you had done it in this instance, it is something that you would have remembered.

MR RAMALIGELA: I am not seriously denying that I did kick him, I might have kicked him even then, because one was cross you know, there was a onward progress report which was required at Thohoyandou and you know that was quite confusing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ramaligela in your evidence you have omitted the most important thing, about the tortures that you carried out on these victims, on this people, that when you effected, for each method you used there was a desired effect and you haven't explained to this committee what is it that would happen to the person and that would make him fear or get tired, especially the electric shock are being applied on people.  Can you explain to this committee what was the effect of it on the body of the person being tortured?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, what we actually wanted was certain was that these people had to admit that they knew something so that we could charge them in court.  The methods that we used was anybody at our disposal whether fists or bare hand, even the electricity, or electric shock.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramaligela I want you to explain to the committee the effect of the electrical shock on one's body when applied.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you use the electric method rather than the helicopter method or the wet bag method?  What effect does the electric method have?  That is what she wants to know.

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, with regard to electric shock one realises that it does shock a person so that one realise that life is going and as such you know one comes with the correct evidence other than you know the ordinary helicopter method.

CHAIRPERSON: The electric shock method as applied by yourself, did one person crank the handle and hold the device while another person move the electrodes over the body of the victim or did you attach the electrodes and then one person then just turns the handle?  How did you do it?

MR RAMALIGELA: We will just put it on the earlobes before winding.  We can't put them on the - one would put them on the earlobe and the one will be on that side and then wind.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you cover the electrodes with a wet cloth or did you just stick the electrodes on and then wind and if you didn't cover it, did it leave burn marks?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, we will cover with a wet cloth and put it on the  earlobes even on other parts of the body we will the same.

CHAIRPERSON: That's to stop the burn marks.

MR RAMALIGELA: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: And then did you put water else there to increase the flow of the current?  Was the other water used?  Did you wet the body, make him put his feet in water or something like that?

MR RAMALIGELA: We normally used to have a bucket full of water.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell this committee how many people did it require to carry out this electrical shock on a person, on one person, how many people did you require to assist you?

MR RAMALIGELA: Even one person was enough because no it wasn't difficult to attach that and just to do the actual application of that.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramaligela I am putting it you that the victims, on all the victims went through this electrical shock on all, on their bodies and including their private parts and it is their evidence that once the shocks were applied on their bodies they would, the bodies would jerk so strongly that one person could never be able to hold them and even three people, so you had to have had a team of people around you and indeed, there were more than six people present in the torturing of these gentlemen and their names you have not given to this committee.  Do you refute this?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, with the regard to the names I can't remember so vividly as to who else was in except the late Sifuwa, who perhaps could have been the fifth person, I can't remember the other person.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said it was yourself and then Managa and Nesamari and maybe the deceased Sifuwa.  So that is one, two, three and yourself is four.  Now you are talking about five people.  Do you know who the fifth one would have been.

MR RAMALIGELA: I can't remember as to who the person was.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose. You seem to have been the chief investigator, so to speak, with regard to the investigation relating to the bombing of the Sibasa police station.

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I was the second in charge.  The person who was officiated was Captain Sifuwa who was later, later General Ramushwana took over.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you seem to have been the one who conducted the investigations quite extensively and did extensive interrogations in relation to this incident.  That's the Sibasa bombing incident.  Is that correct?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you, and only you would be in a better position than General Ramushwana to place us in a better picture as to who was involved or who constituted the investigating team, who was doing the interrogations.  Is it not so?

MR RAMALIGELA: It is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who did you work with in relation to the Sibasa bombing was interrogating the suspects that you have mentioned in paragraph 15.

MR RAMALIGELA: I had Mr Managa, Mr Nesamari and we were three.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Managa and Mr Nesamari.  That's all?  Now it has been put to you that it would be impossible to administer this electric shock method unless there were more than six persons.  Is that true?

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to electricity, I am saying one could implement this as an individual because you know, it is just a matter of standing on the other side and wind.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you don't agree.  Do you dispute what is being put to you?  Are you saying you could conduct that electric shock method with only two people assisting you?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I just want to put it clearly to the Chairperson that even one person will administer that, however we were three.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, I just want you to respond to what has been put to you because you haven't responded.

MR RAMALIGELA: Well it is true I can't remember exactly who the other people were, the ones that were co-operating with me because we are told that it is something that could be done by at least six people.  Well, then I can't remember who the other people were.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But if you can't remember who would, you would know whether it would require six persons or not.  Are you saying it is possible that there were more than three people who had been involved when the electric shock method was applied on the victims.