Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-27

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I left in February 1983.  It might have been around the 14th of February.

MR VISSER: And were you aware of your sister, Ntombi Kubheka's political activities in the country?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: No, I wasn't aware.

MR VISSER: You weren't.  Are you aware that your sister, Sibongile, made a statement to the TRC?  Gugu Sibongile.  It's in bundle 2, page 4.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, I'm aware.

MR VISSER: And she appears to have been aware of certain political activities by - or rather, of your sister Ntombi, and I want to refer you to page 15, where the question is asked
"Why did it happen?"
referring to whatever happened to the victim, and she said:
"We assume that she was killed because of her involvement, direct, with the MK unit that contacted her when they were infiltrated.  Also four members of her family were in exile and ANC members and her other ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Her mother.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry.
"... her mother (late) was actively involved in ANC activities."
Would you agree with that?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, I would agree with that.

MR VISSER: Alright.  If I may be personal now, because that was your evidence, it was about your own personal length and so on.  Mrs Masetla, would you mind terribly if during the tea adjournment we just took a measurement of your length?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I don't mind.

MR VISSER: You don't mind.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: But I would have - I would like to remind ourselves that we did provide that, my measurements which were taken and the doctor was there.  We went to the District Surgeon.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You see that's really the problem, because there were two measurements provided for you.  One of 1,58 and the other is 1.48.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: If you ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Sorry, with respect Mr Chairperson, the measurement, the only measurement that I can recall having been provided was a measurement taken by Dr Naidoo and placed on record as 1,48.

MR VISSER: Do you know whether your sister - was your sister ever present during the hearings of this case?  Your sister, Sibongile.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Can you repeat yourself.

MR VISSER: Was Sibongile present during the hearings, with you here?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, she was.

MR VISSER: She was.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: And she still is.

MR VISSER: She still is.  Do you know whether her measurements were taken at any time?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Her measurements were taken also and were provided together with all the ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: And before that?  Do you know?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Before when?

MR VISSER: Before now, before this session.  Look, at this session measurements were taken of you and of your brother and of your sister, remember?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, they were taken.

MR VISSER: And was it done previously as well or not?  As far as you know.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I would assume that my sister's measurements have been taken before but not necessarily for this session.  The ones that were provided in this session were taken when we were all together.

MR VISSER: Yes, I just want to make absolutely sure what we're talking about, because I will refer you to what is at page 1899 of the record.  At the foot of that page it says
"

MR WILLS: "
I'm going to read it, just to prevent any uncertainty.  Mr Wills says:
"Sorry, you describe the size of the deceased as being large ..."
and this is Mr du Preez that gave evidence.
"As regards her height, what would you estimate her height to be?  Was she short?"
		MR DU PREEZ:  I think she was of average height.

MR WILLS: Well, can I just ask Mrs Masetla to stand up please."
That was in September last year.  Now were you the person that was asked to stand up?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, I was the person.

MR VISSER: Okay, so we're talking about you, okay?  And Mr Wills continues
"Now can you estimate her height in relation to Mrs Masetla?"
that is now Ntombi's height.  He says:
"Is she a similar size?"
then he says:
"Our evidence is to the effect that she was a similar height, specifically height to Mrs Masetla."
Now that's not entirely correct, because you told us that Ntombi Kubheka was slightly taller than you, one to two centimetres, is that correct?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I've said that.

MR VISSER: Then says Mr du Preez
"It's possible, Chairperson.  The impression that I had was that she was a very large woman and she was very heavy.  Her height, I would say approximately the same height, or maybe taller."
referring to you.  And then we come to the reason why I'm asking you whether you will allow us to measure your height.
"

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mrs Masetla.
			The evidence of the family will be that she was a particularly short woman of similar height to Mrs Masetla, although she was quite large.  Thank you."
then:
"NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS"
I say something and that is:
"Can we now know how tall Mrs Masetla is, otherwise the whole exercise is meaningless."
and the Chairperson makes a remark and Mr Wills says:
"1,58 seems to come from the gallery."
So he was told from the gallery 1,58 in relation to your length.  That's 10 centimetres taller than what the Doctor now measured you at.  So if you don't mind, we just take a quick measurement, make a mark on the wall and we'll know exactly what the story is.  If you don't mind.
	And Chairperson, while I'm about that, we haven't had any feedback on Mrs Dludla.  I notice that she's here.  She signified that she would have no problem with that and perhaps we can do that in the teatime as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Would you describe yourself as being a thinner person than Ntombi Kubheka, or do you say you are fatter or stouter than Ntombi Kubheka?  Or the same?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Not the same, but I'm not thinner to her.  I may be a little smaller, not thin.

MR VISSER: Would you generally say that Ntombi had small breasts or medium breasts or large breasts, how would you describe that?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Depending on the period like when she was breastfeeding, then of course the breasts would enlarge.

MR VISSER: Yes, of course.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: But I would - I'm trying to remember her before I left.  She had - the top was almost my size.

MR VISSER: Would 110 centimetres be approximately right?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I can't tell you, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for record purposes, seeing Mrs Masetla sitting here she certainly to me, does not appear to be a large woman.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Thank you, Chairperson.
	I want to just refer you to photographs in Exhibit R, and seeing that you've now referred to Exhibit R29 I'm going to through you, place something on record.  It seems that on Exhibit R29, the person on the photograph is standing next to a motor car.  I, Chairperson, can't make out what type of car it is, unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: I tried to do so myself, but I couldn't.

MR VISSER: It would seem to be slightly larger than a middle sized car.

CHAIRPERSON: It does seem to be quite a large car with a vinyl roof, I think.

MR VISSER: Yes, correct.
	And would you agree ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I would venture to suggest if it looks like anything, it might be like a Valiant.

MR VISSER: In fact.  That's the closest I would guess, yes.
	Would you agree on that photograph, Mrs Masetla, that the person standing next to the car is approximately a head taller than the top of the roof of the car?  If not more.  Given the fact that the car is obviously sloping downwards with its nose.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Looking at it roughly, I would agree.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now do you know motorcars at all?  Do you know a Nissan Sentra?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I have an idea.