Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

FAAN VENTER: Yes it contributed to that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  But now by the time that you were called to give evidence by the Attorney General of the Transvaal before the Judge President of the division you were no longer in custody?

FAAN VENTER: That's correct, but it had been enforced on me to such an extent and they had asked these questions so repetitively concerning February and I denied that as well that at first in court I also first stated erroneously February and then I corrected myself, I said no, it had been March.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you look at page 407 of our one volume 5 you were asked,
"Who told you to do this?
		Mr Derby-Lewis had said that the firearm had to go to Mr du Randt's house, had to be taken there and I had to tell them that it was Mr Derby-Lewis' jersey.  Yes, and I did that.  It was during the second half of February that I took the firearm to Mrs du Randt and handed it over to her".
You were not under any form of pressure were you at the time that you answered the Attorney General of the Transvaal?

FAAN VENTER: Mr Chairman with respect, Mr Bizos then has to continue reading further because it is immediately corrected.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that what you said?

FAAN VENTER: Yes as I said I stated erroneously because it had been drilled into me by the police that it was February, February and it must have been in my subconscious but I corrected it to March as I said.

JUDGE WILSON: The second half of March?

FAAN VENTER: Yes it was a second mistake Sir because I have to be perfectly honest, I knew it was in March but I wasn't entirely sure.  My memory was refreshed by my wife when she told me it had been on the birthday of my child and that is why it had been the 10th, and that's why I say the 10th is correct.  But it was definitely not in February because if I look back, I have documentation, my house was registered and I took occupation on the 1st of March, it couldn't have been, it was simply a mistake.

GEORGE BIZOS: I will just read what you said.
"No further questions..."
said the Attorney General.  And you said -
"I wish to correct, it was the second half of March, not February, I beg your pardon".
Now when is your son's birthday?

FAAN VENTER: It's on the 7th of March.

GEORGE BIZOS: But now when did your wife put you right?

FAAN VENTER: At a much later stage, after the court case, she corrected me and told me you know you had been wrong, it was on Frans' birthday and this and that happened and I had to agree with it, that that was the case.  If I think back then she was entirely correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well you see when I asked you right at the beginning whether you were sure and you relied on your memory why didn't you mention this whole story of having made a statement that it was in February that your wife corrected you after the trial, you thought about it, why didn't you come out with all this when I first asked you whether you merely relied on your memory in order to tell us that it was on the 10th of March?

FAAN VENTER: I thought that you were completely entitled to ask me these questions as you are doing now, I knew you were going to ask me these questions and the answers remain the same.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you made, when you telephoned Mr Derby-Lewis did you speak to him personally before you went to his house?

FAAN VENTER: No I think I spoke to his wife.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you make an appointment with her?

FAAN VENTER: For Mr Derby-Lewis, yes, to see him.

GEORGE BIZOS: And by the way did you tell the person that was to deliver it that it must be in Mr Derby-Lewis' jersey?

FAAN VENTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where had you got his jersey from ...(intervention)

FAAN VENTER: Your honour does Mr Bizos say in his jersey or that it was his jersey?

CHAIRPERSON: Put your question again because I was busy taking down and I didn't hear, sorry.  Mr Bizos put your question again please.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Did you have Mr Derby-Lewis' jersey with you when you wrapped up the gun?

FAAN VENTER: No I didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Whose jersey was it?

FAAN VENTER: I didn't have a jersey.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you give instructions to anyone to say that the gun was to be wrapped up in a jersey?

FAAN VENTER: No I hadn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was the question of a jersey ever any part of any discussion in relation to the delivery of this gun?

FAAN VENTER: Mr Derby-Lewis said to me that I had to tell Du Randt that this was Clive's jersey and give him the pistol.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh I see.  So this, Mr Derby-Lewis's jersey, was that a sort-of code word then and not to be taken in an innocent fashion in which I took it before I asked you the other question?

FAAN VENTER: Well I wouldn't know whether it was a code word between Mr Derby-Lewis and Mr du Randt but I was told to do so and I did it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well if there was not going to be a jersey involved in the transaction then the only thing that it would mean was that in handing it over Mr du Randt must have had made a previous arrangement for Mr du Randt to receive the gun and that a code word was going to be used.

FAAN VENTER: Well I wouldn't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well just look at your words on page 2407.
"Mr Derby-Lewis said that the firearm had to be taken to Mr du Randt's house and I had to just say to them, 'this is Mr Derby-Lewis' jersey'".
Doesn't that sound as if this was a code word?

FAAN VENTER: Possibly, I don't know what the arrangement was.  To me it was not a code word, to me it didn't mean anything.  It was simply a matter of saying instead of this is a pistol there is his jersey.  I think it was quite a joke.

GEORGE BIZOS: A joke!

FAAN VENTER: Ja, I saw some humour in it, it was a pistol and I called it a jersey.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  If you bear with me for one moment please.  Was it as like as a jersey?

FAAN VENTER: No it was a pistol in a pistol box in a white plastic bag.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any other business that you wanted to discuss with Mr Derby-Lewis other than you joining the Conservative Party?

FAAN VENTER: Not necessarily, I simply went to report, tell him that if he needed workers I was available, that was it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Derby-Lewis ask you whether a silencer could be fitted on the gun that he asked you for?

FAAN VENTER: No, I don't know anything about silencers.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Venter, did you know anything about Mr Hani?

FAAN VENTER: No Sir, only what I read in the newspapers.  That's what I knew about him.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you look at paragraph - I'll read to you what you said in the last sentence of paragraph 3 of AH.
"Mr Taylor said to me that I had to keep the firearm with a view to the possible struggle or battle that was ahead"
Did he tell you that?

FAAN VENTER: Well I suppose so, I can't remember specifically, it's quite possibly what he said, "massacre or battle", that was more-or-less the vein in which it was said.

GEORGE BIZOS: What massacre was he referring to?

FAAN VENTER: I suspect that it was the one that was ahead of us according to the Conservative Party but which, thank heaven, didn't take place.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Who was going to start the "massacre"?

FAAN VENTER: Well I don't know.  We were under the impression that the SACP/ANC would initiate this and we were taking defensive steps in the Volksfront.  That is the massacre/battle which I thought of.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you not know of any offensive "battle" that sections of the Volksfront were planning at the time?

FAAN VENTER: No Sir.  Mr Chair if Mr Bizos poses the question using the words "at the time", does he refer to the period before or after Mr Hani's death, because according to Mr Hartzenberg the Volksfront was only established after Mr Hani's death?

GEORGE BIZOS: When I mean the period Mr Chairman I mean both before and after Mr Hani's death.

CHAIRPERSON: Well more particularly when Mr Taylor gave him the weapon.

GEORGE BIZOS: Precisely Mr Chairman.