Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-29

COMMISSIONER: were targeted.  I don't know - there's something you said about targeting.  And one other thing that I wanted to ask is with regard to compensation.  If this thing happens won't it affect the case as the case is still going on?  What I want to understand is, is it not possible for it to affect - if a person lays a civil claim after having given testimony here won't that affect the civil claim?

COMMISSIONER: No, it won't affect it at all.  It's quite clear that you were innocent victims of this thing that took place in - whenever it was - in 1986, and one of the jobs of the Truth Commission is to make recommendations to the Government as to how people should be assisted.  So there's nothing that you have to be concerned or worried about.  And also no evidence that you've given here can be used in any other court of law.  That is part of the Truth Commission's - part of the Act under which the Truth Commission was established.  And also, as Mr Lax pointed out at the beginning of your evidence, what you have said is common cause.  The court in Durban, the Supreme Court, has heard that your house was attacked by armed men, that people were killed.  No one disputes that.  Not even the police themselves dispute that.  They are just disputing that they themselves did it, or that they were involved in it.  So you don't have to worry that anything you have said will jeopardise any claim you want to make.

WITNESS:   I want to say something else.  The harassment that took place is still going on even now.  I am in the Protection Unit even now, because after the case the people with whom I was staying at that time said they could not - even the people I was staying with were harassed because they kept

COMMISSIONER: on coming to the place looking for me.  And there are people who phone, and they say they are from the ANC offices and they wanted to help me.  And I am not free any more, because wherever I go they tend to follow me and harass me, and harass the people with whom I am staying.  It's still happening even now.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... we understand that, and we are glad that for the moment anyway you are safe, in the sense that you have been placed in the witness protection.  Unfortunately the Commission is not in a position to assist you with things that are happening now.  If you are no longer in witness protection, or if you seek witness protection, we can assist you at that, but I understood you to say that you have - you are in protection at the moment.  But if at any stage you feel that you need protection from the Truth Commission's witness protection programme that can be arranged.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much for coming in.

OBED MTHEMBU: (Sworn, States)   (Through Interpreter)

OBED MTHEMBU: You have come here to tell us about the killing of your son, Joseph Russell Mthembu.

WITNESS:   No, that's another story.

OBED MTHEMBU: Oh, we have two Mthembus here.  No, there is a mistake here.  Lax should be leading.  We would change it, but we'll leave it like this.  Mr Mthembu, Dr Magwaza will lead you.

DR MAGWAZA: Mr Mthembu, we thank you for joining us today.  We know that what you have come here for is from the other part of Clermont community.  Today we have been concentrating on Clermont and Umlazi.  In the past hearings there are people who have come forward and enlightened and gave us some picture of what has gone through.  As you are here as well you are here to tell us also about the harassment and the torture you've been through.  Before we go on we would like you to give us a brief picture of your wife and the family.

WITNESS:   I have older children already, and one died in a car accident already.  I have a place in Clermont, but after some time I left Clermont and now I stay in Westville.  Briefly at Clermont were families who lived in peace, peacefully, but after some time we went through difficult times now, harassment and so forth, although I wouldn't even know where this started.  When I bring this picture forward, Clermont is a place where people have bought themselves sites.  It's not like a location, where people will pay rent and already occupy houses that were existing.  People were buying sites and built for themselves.  And I also grew up and I bought myself a site.  Through it all, as people who know where we come from, we were people who will appreciate to live in peace if anything.  No violence or no harassment should go on.  But when time went on things started to happen now as a result of Clermont being under the Zulu Government, KwaZulu Government.  Many people did not like this, but since people are so different, and have different interests, but most of us, the majority did not like the idea, because we knew that if we were under the discrimination, racist government, we will not exercise our rights.  To this day what brought me here is one of the things that led to our harassment.  One time there was a Commission that came into place that disclosed the truth, asking why didn't we want to go to KwaZulu Government.  Many things were listed, and I am one of those who were present at the Commission in Durban at Four Seasons.  My cousin accompanied me, who already is late now.  After a while we arrived there.  Some girls came.  I know one of those girls, although I don't quite remember her because this happened some time ago.  I asked her, "Are you also here?  I never thought you will come here."  She said, "No, I got off from a car, Jamile's car."  Now I asked, "Where is he?"  She said, "He is not here."

DR MAGWAZA: Let me just disturb you, Mr Mthembu, so we can clarify some things.  Who is Jamile?

WITNESS:   Jamile is a person who instigated all what went on in Clermont.  Through the difficulties that we've been through it was because of him.  He provoked things.

DR MAGWAZA: Who was Jamile?  Did he occupy some kind of position in the community or in the Government?

WITNESS:   He had a position that had to do with schools.  He was a chairman for schools, and also he had another position in Inyandeni in the Chamber of Commerce, and we used to work together at Inyandeni.  He was able to get that position because I left it, and therefore he took over because he was my secretary.  When I left this position he took over.  When I was promoted from that position I therefore said he should take over.  Then he became a secretary.  After some time we heard that he was now Inkatha representative in Clermont.  After some time again there were voting going on in Clermont.  Suddenly we heard that he was the Member of Parliament in KwaZulu.  After a while we heard that he has already been promoted.  That was shocking.  Suddenly he was a deputy.  He was a Deputy Minister of Interior in KwaZulu Government.  That's where I think he felt he could become the head and the lord and the king in Clermont.  Even when he was walking you could tell that he was so arrogant because of the position now he held.  He tried to get into Advisory Board, but because the community of Clermont are people who are very - who keep a very low profile, and who are so - who respect, they therefore decided that that Advisory Board will belong to the community of Clermont, and Mr Makhatini was left outside. And Mr Jamile tried to get into this Board.  Unfortunately he got only seven votes in the whole of Clermont community.  In other words what I am trying to say here, the only position that he was left with is this one of being a deputy in the Zulu Government.

DR MAGWAZA: Let's go back, Mr Mthembu, to your story that pertains to you.  Tell us now about what happened to you as a person.