Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR GREYLING: No, we were not.  During the interrogation of Mr Lalla it was exposed to us from the first time that there were negotiations among the senior security staff which to Warrant Officer Basson and me was upsetting regarding the fact that senior officers within the police or politicians were simply using the security police at that point for their own advantage.

MR LAX: Were you party at all to any of the observations on any of the houses or any of the arrests that took place.  Were you party to any of that?

MR GREYLING: During the arrest of Siphiwe Nyanda I was present.  There were not enough people in the office and they were looking for persons to assist with the arrest.

MR LAX: What time was he arrested?

MR GREYLING: I can't recall precisely, I think it was in the morning perhaps between 11 and 12, I cannot recall precisely.  So it was late morning as far as you can recall?

MR GREYLING: Yes, as far as I can recall.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Any questions arising from questions that have been put by the Panel, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, sorry I should have asked you first.

MR NEL: No thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: I just want to get here, Chairperson, Mr Greyling's attitude to assault quite clear.  I was quite disturbed by your answer to Advocate Bosman.  Are you saying that you - I understand that you were under instruction and I asked you that question but you seemed to say that you would have no problems in participating in assaults of your own accord, not under instruction?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I did this upon instruction.  It was not the manner in which we would do it and I'm not trying to suggest that.  At that stage even though the instruction was illegal I felt that it was expected of me as a policeman to execute this instruction.  Personally, that would not be the way that I would work or the way that it should be, that would not be the moral way of doing this.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Gordhan.  Mr Lalla?

MR LALLA: Mr Greyling, are you aware that I am presently the Head of Crime Intelligence?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I have been notified as such.

MR LALLA: I'm beginning to get a signal over here that there is some mischief making going on in terms of implications of saying one cooperated with one and the other cooperated with the other and the other helped in finding this arms cache.  I'm going to put this question to you directly, were you aware where the map of the arms cache, where was it found?  Were you there?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, at no stage was I involved or present during the obtaining of the map of the stockpile.  Mr Lalla told us from the beginning that he didn't know abut the map but the fact that we gave the map to him, he said that he would use the contents of the map and assist us in pointing out the stockpile, that he had no personal involvement with the map or with the stockpile.

MR LALLA: Mr Greyling, were you present right throughout the time when the location of this arms cache was found, were you there with me right throughout the time?

MR GREYLING: Yes I was present, it was in Pretoria.  The video unit of the Pretoria unit was also there.

MR LALLA: Were you aware at that time, you all took me to Soshanguve, I had no idea where Pretoria was.  It was my first visit to Pretoria.  You had taken me to a point and you had said to me this is the road, this is how you go there and I was directed through the process of the policeman who was investigating that case to the location of the firearm.

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR LALLA: Thanks, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LALLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Greyling, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I see that it's now quarter past one, this will be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment which we will take until 2 o'clock.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, just one thing.  Only two other persons whose matters could be fairly brief and in view of the fact that they ...(indistinct) you don't have anything to follow up this matter, would it be an imposition upon you to say that let's conclude the other two and then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, you'll also be given an opportunity if you want to, to testify yourselves, you have that right.

MR GORDHAN: I also don't intend to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR GORDHAN: Well, in the interests of expediting this matter  Chairperson, I'm saying that a little bit hunger might not be misplaced.

CHAIRPERSON: It's just that I personally have no problem with what you're putting, it's just that there are caterers and
 translators need a break, it's very difficult for them to continue but we can make it shorter, half an hour and start at quarter to two?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS