Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

UNKNOWN: That's not the question. The question is whether when you hear the voice, and it is accepted that you know that it is the person who you think it is, say for instance in this case it is Mrs Mandela's voice, are you able just from hearing that voice that the person is speaking in Johannesburg or in Brandfort?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chair, yes, it is possible if she spoke to a person who stayed in Johannesburg at a stage.  If she spoke to a person called Piet, we would know that Piet was staying in Soweto.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: I think that you are confusing all of us and it is a very critical issue, because what it does, is it throws some doubt about Mrs Mandela's credibility, because in terms of the evidence that you have given here before the Commission on the 29th of December, which is the date that we are talking about, she places herself in Brandfort.  Now if I hear your explanation correctly, the 29th of December must be on a Friday, because you are going to remove the tape on the Monday. Am I correct so far?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: So effectively you have got a device on the telephone and you are recording all the information that is on the telephone and recorded between the Friday and the Monday morning. Is that right?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: That's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: But you are not actually able to tell us which particular day that is.  Is that correct?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: That's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: And further if we established that the 29th is either between Monday, between Monday and Thursday, then effectively that throws what you are saying out.  Is that correct?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairman, no.  Through the week it's another story.  From Monday to Friday is another story.  Then we are on the premises.  Then we listen to what's on the tape and take it back, but over the weekend it is difficult, because over the weekend the tapes weren't always changed.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Bosman what I am - from what you said this was a tape which you picked up, it was after a weekend, it was on a Monday morning.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: That's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: Now I would like to know whether you read the transcript or whether you listened to the tape recording yourself.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chair, in 99%, for 99% I only read the transcriptions.  It would have been impossible to listen to the tapes.

YASMINE SOOKA: In this particular instance can you remember?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I would lie if I say, to say that I had listened specifically to that one.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also said that you are not sure or I am not quite sure if I picked it up correctly, that you mentioned Mrs Sisulu's name in connection with this tape recording as well. Is that correct?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: No, I think Mrs Sisulu was mentioned on another occasion when we spoke about Dr Asvat and Mrs Mandela. This was not a case between Brandfort and Mrs Mandela. It was between Dr Asvat and Mrs Mandela.

YASMINE SOOKA: I just want to recap. This is a tape on Mrs Mandela's telephone at her house in Soweto.  It is a tape recording that starts on the Friday, it is wound up on a Monday morning, and based on the fact that you hear her voice on the tape, you place her at the Soweto house on the Friday.  You have also said in your evidence that there were three copies of the transcription; one for Mr Watermeyer, one for Potgieter.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: (Indistinct/not translated). - (not speaking into the microphone)

YASMINE SOOKA: And one for yourself.  And both the tapes of course and the transcription have now been destroyed.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: (Indistinct/not translated).

YASMINE SOOKA: One last question.  Mr Semenya tried to establish, I think, this question of what you meant by sensitive.  Because you actually used the word that this information was not used because it was too sensitive.  Why did you use the word sensitive and why did you mean by it?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: That was at a stage when there was strict surveillance of the organisation and then there was a classification of secret, confidential and strictly secret.  It was not for every Tom, Dick and Harry to know that information.  For instance, we didn't even allow a transcription on a table. If I entered a person's office and a transcription was lying on the table, then I spoke to him about it. I would reprimand him, because it was not a general phenomenon that everybody should know what was going on.

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry you are not answering the question.  There is a difference between classifying information as being highly sensitive and not using information, because it is sensitive.  And what you said to us, is that the information was not used because it was too sensitive.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: No, the information was not used, as a fact that it was not not used, because it was sensitive, the real wording was that it had to be treated sensitively.

YASMINE SOOKA: I see.  One last question.  The tapes for, when you made these tape recordings, if for instance, you have a tape set on a Monday, are we to assume that the tape will be switched off on the Monday, it will be transcribed on the same day and the information will be available on the next day?  I would like to know what you say about tape recordings during Monday and Thursday.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chair, say for instance it is the Monday morning's tape which was put on on Monday morning seven o'clock and went through to Tuesday morning seven o'clock, then it was taken out, booked out to a transcriber. The man sat there and he recorded the conversations in the transcription and by the afternoon when he was done, I read it, signed it and passed it on to each section, which was interested, which had an interest in this specific operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Bosman, thank you very much for your presence here and for your answers to our questions. You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED