Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It's difficult to say at this stage, it's very difficult to give you an honest answer on that question.

MR MOOSA: We'd agree all of us that what was said by you and others at the Harms Commission was not true, it was lies, isn't that so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: And it now emerges that a large part of what Mr Coetzee had to say about this incident turns out to be the truth using as our measure what you and the other applicants in this set of applications are saying?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes to a greater extent, yes, that is true what he has said.

MR MOOSA: Amongst the things which he said which are true is that the body of this young man Mr Kondile was burnt in the Komatipoort area.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: But there are certain differences.  One of them is about the car which we learn is Mr Chris Hani's car.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR MOOSA: Now you maintain that that car was at all times in Bloemfontein, is that right?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR MOOSA: Talking about Bloemfontein, is there anyone going to come to support your amnesty application to tell us what happened with Mr Kondile in Bloemfontein?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not as far as I know, no, I don't think so.

MR MOOSA: Help us a little bit then.  Who were the people involved, do you know, who were involved with Mr Kondile in the Bloemfontein area?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't know first hand, but I think from documents reference is made to Mr Prinsloo, if I can remember correctly.  He was one of the persons who was involved with Mr Kondile in Bloemfontein.  I don't know about anybody else.  I don't know, I can't tell you, if there were others who they were.

MR MOOSA: This Mr Prinsloo is he someone we can find?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes as far as I know.

MR MOOSA: Where is he now, do you know?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I don't know.

MR MOOSA: As soon as Mr Kondile was arrested did the news come to you in Port Elizabeth that this gentleman has in fact been arrested?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman I suppose so.  I did not handle with this directly  I don't know whether Bloemfontein informed Mr Erasmus or Mr du Plessis by telephone but he did not inform me personally.  I had no telephone contact with him regarding this matter.  I could have seen it by means of encoded messages provided me this information on my desk.

MR MOOSA: I know it was a long time ago but it would have been a very significant event for the Eastern Cape area, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I would classify it like that.

MR MOOSA: And you would be eager in the Eastern Cape to get Mr Kondile in your hands as soon as possible to interrogate him and get information as soon as possible, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It is so, yes, but Mr Chairman the normal practice was that if the Free State had arrested such a person they would interrogate him first of all to establish what information he had about the Free State.  And if he could tell them anything about the Free State and said I have intelligence about the Eastern Cape then they would notify us.  And then we would be anxious to discuss things with this person.  But the people who arrested him initially in my whole career in the police it was like that that they would first establish whether he had information regarding their area.  That was number one priority and then they would investigate other areas.
	I want to expand on that.  If they find that this person can't tell us anything more, he has more intelligence for the Eastern Cape that would have been the correct procedure to transfer him to the Eastern Cape.

MR MOOSA: Now even before Mr du Plessis came to you to explain his problems he would have come to you to say that Mr Kondile is now in detention in the Eastern Cape and is being interrogated, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I accept that.

MR MOOSA: And you - would I be right in saying you would get fairly regular reports of how progress is going and for example that he has been transferred from Humansdorp to Jeffrey's Bay?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not necessarily.  What usually happened in such a case was that Mr du Plessis would inform me if he felt that there was anything necessary for the area in which we operated.  He would not necessarily have told me that he had transferred the person from Jeffrey's Bay, he could have done it, but it was not necessary for him to do that.  It was not some or other rule or instruction to do it in that way.

MR MOOSA: I understand that but very significant for Mr du Plessis and for all of you then would be the breakthrough that Mr Kondile had agreed to work for you, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, yes that is true.

MR MOOSA: I take it, it would be inevitable that Mr du Plessis would not only tell you about it but that he would have been elated, excited about that development in the investigation?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes it is like that.

MR MOOSA: And did he tell you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, he told me about it.

MR MOOSA: Now you were in fact in charge of Mr du Plessis, you were his senior, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I was his senior officer.

MR MOOSA: Were you concerned to make sure that Mr Kondile's apparent willingness to work for the Security Branch was genuine?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't want to comment on that, but I just wanted to describe the structure.  Mr du Plessis was the head of certain desk.  His desk or his unit then had certain tasks.  I was in charge of another desk with other duties.  It was just by coincidence that I was his senior.  Regarding certain matters we co-operated horizontally but his main liaison person was directly to the commanding officer in charge.  I hope that explains the situation.

MR MOOSA: Yes, it is of some assistance, but neither you nor Mr du Plessis nor for that matter Mr Erasmus were rookies or greenhorns in this business am I right?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No you are correct.

MR MOOSA: There is no way that such sensitive information as is described in the statement of Mr du Plessis and also described in your statement, you could easily take the chance of giving it to somebody who was coming directly from the ANC and was a trained activist.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I am sorry I did not follow what you were asking me.

MR MOOSA: I am sorry, maybe I wasn't too clear, let me try again.
	You have a trained activist coming directly from the ANC and someone who is close to Mr Chris Hani, this is Mr Kondile, am I right?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: And in a short time, after two weeks of interrogation, plus/minus in the Eastern Cape he shows a willingness to work for you in the Security Branch.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR MOOSA: I take it that you'd be very careful about the information that you give him, that you wouldn't entrust him with sensitive information which would make him a potential danger to you?