Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: Were you involved during instances where he was questioned?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman Mr Mohape was questioned very rarely, he was detained, what we wanted to know we did know regarding him.

MR STANDER: Do you think that he had any reason to implicate you?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I was responsible for various detentions of Mr Mohape.  I don't know how he feels about me.

MR STANDER: You were also present in the Commission when he said he has no feelings of hate against anybody, he just hates what was done to him.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I heard about it, I was not present personally.

MR STANDER: I want to put it to you that he has no feelings of hate against you and does not wish to implicate you falsely.

UNKNOWN: It did not seem as if he was very friendly against Mr Visser.   The impression I gained as a member of this Committee was that he did not like Mr Visser very much and of that of that which Mr Visser represents.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman that could be the inference.  I don't want to comment on that.  I just wish to say.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't know what Mr Mohape feels about me but he is falsely implicating me or accusing me, that is true.

MR STANDER: When these interrogations were done in Fontein Street, was there sometimes more than one person in a room?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes there were various offices shared by field workers.  I and two other officers shared for example one office because there was a problem with office accommodation.

MR STANDER: At this stage when Mr White Mohape was questioned there at Fontein Street when he was apparently assaulted and when Mr Motsamai said he was present, can you remember that such and incident did take place?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.  The question or the issue that I would ask a person to look out of the window did not happen.  If something like that had happened I would have remembered.

MR STANDER: I want to put it to you that that incident did take place according to Mr Mohape.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I deny it.

MR STANDER: I've said previously that was the last matter.  I just want to ask one more thing.  Did it sometimes happen that members of the Security Police executed an operation; in other words the police activities?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: There were various coordinated activities or operations.  For example people who were arrested preventative actions, there were many bomb explosions in Bloemfontein, there were a lot of special services being rendered.

MR STANDER: And you say not at any such instance you were involved?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No the laws were enforced.  There were unlawful activities and then those people were prosecuted, I was at one stage where civil claims were instituted.

MR STANDER: Do you want to refer to which instances this happened?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: This was in 1985.  For example, under instructions form Head Office based with reference to the Umanzimtholti bomb attack that certain houses had to be searched.
	I was in charge of an operation in Brandfort where Mr Mushlane's house's door was kicked out.  I arrested a person there who according to my judgement prevented me from executing my duties.  A civil claim was instituted and the court found that it was an unlawful action.

MR STANDER: So there were unlawful actions sometimes?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes it did happen but it was not that everything had to be hidden.  There were many remedies in this regard, people appeared in court, civil claims were instituted, this was not something which happened every day.

MR STANDER: And if other people of the police service testified here that they were never part of any unlawful activities do you really thing that we have any grounds to believe these people?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't know in which context, is it in regard with the allegations made against them?  I deny these allegations made here.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BE MR STANDER

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Erasmus, you've told us that on the occasion when Mr Ngo killed Mr Venter you were on leave.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: You said that you were at what is the name of town that you mentioned?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Hartenbos.

ADV MEMANI: Hartenbos, do you have relatives there?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: My mother's brother has a beach cottage there and I rented that from them Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: The address of the cottage?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't have the street number, it is in ThabaNchu Street in Hartenbos.

ADV MEMANI: Was this an emergency?  Was there any emergency?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't understand what you mean.

ADV MEMANI: Did you decide to take your leave because there was an emergency?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman I just took my annual leave.   I and my wife and we got married in the midst of this trial and we went to the coast and we spent our holidays there.  It was the usual holiday.

ADV MEMANI: You didn't have children at that stage did you?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Erasmus, I'd like to refer you Bundle D 60.  According to - do you have the document in Bundle D 50 it's an application for leave form?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes I have the sworn oath.

JUDGE WILSON: B 50 do you say?

ADV MEMANI: B 60.

JUDGE WILSON: B?

ADV MEMANI: Yes My Lord.  I'm told that you've got B 60 on your right hand side, bundle B.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I have it in front of me

ADV MEMANI: And is it your application for leave?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: It was Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: I want you to have a look at paragraph 5.  It says that your address during leave would be Brandewynkuil Vosburg.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it a different address from the one you've given us?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman Brandewynkuil is my parent's address, when my holiday started we went to them.  From there we left for the coast. Two days we spent at the Bakke at Mosselbay and then we went for a further 10 to 12 days to my uncle's house.  From there we returned to my parents house, we went to my parents in law in Aliwal North and eventually we came back to Lorelei 3 in Bloemfontein where I lived.

ADV MEMANI: You see it's surprising that we are not told all these things during cross-examination.

JUDGE WILSON: That's precisely what we are being told during cross-examination.

ADV MEMANI: Well during the cross-examination of Ngo.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you seriously suggesting that this should have been put to Mr Ngo, that he went to stay with his parents, after a few days he drove down to Mosselbay.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman we did hear at some stage that he was going to say that he was at a particular place and the place was mentioned by its name and I do not recall what the name that was mentioned is.  But now he's mentioning five places, if I'm not mistaken.  But one place was mentioned before, that is my point.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman for the largest part of my holiday we spent at Hartenbos.

ADV MEMANI: And had you planned that you spend most of your time at Hartenbos?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Initially not Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: What made you decide, when did you decide that you are going to spend most of your time at Hartenbos?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: We were on holiday, my uncle, after he met us at Mosselbay made his house available to us at no cost and we stayed till at the last stage of my leave.

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that this application for leave was part of the plan to murder Mr Venter.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: This is absurd Mr Chairman.