Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: If we look at the political time round about where the new South Africa was emerging, Mandela was released from prison, this is when you started having the political parties like APLA becoming active, which was round about that time, where it became knowledge that Buyafuti was with the PAC and APLA.  	Before then we didn't have that activity, you did not have that political activity, it started to happen in the new South Africa, where you started getting PAC attacks and APLA attacks, where people started to make it aware that they belonged to the ANC or they belonged to the PAC.  I was on numerous occasions asked to join the ANC, I don't think anybody would have asked me to join the PAC, but people became aware of who and what parties they belonged to, it was round about that period.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So you can't dispute that he was a long member of PAC, even before that?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well I don't know, I will have no means of knowing that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No can you just - lastly, my last point with you would be about what was put by the Leader of Evidence, that there was a suggestion that the possible reasons for the attacks was that it was only business interest.  Now can you elaborate that and do you confirm that?  Can you be in a position to elaborate on that, why do you say that it was because of business  interest?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: You're asking me to elaborate on why I said that the attacks were on business people?  I'm not quite sure what I must answer to here.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the suggestion was to elaborate on the fact that the attacks were not political, but were business inspired.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well the fact that it was all local business people that were attacked, all the people that were attacked were local business people.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But also when you hired security also black people used services of that convoy.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That is so, yes.  Ja, that is so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you possibly say what would have been the reason, because this has nothing to do, they have no - okay, let me first say, were they also business people, the blacks?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, they weren't necessarily business people, there were teachers.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: They weren't necessarily business people no, but I can't give you a reason why they joined the convoy, maybe they felt nervous, maybe they were frightened to get into a - you know I don't think you can ask me to explain to you why they joined the convoy.  I can't tell you, I don't know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You have answered one of the questions I was going to ask then.  Then if they also themselves they have that fear of these attacks, wouldn't it be that they did not have that notion that this thing has something to do with business interest?  Would it not be that?

ADV PRIOR: With respect, how can this witness answer what could be in the minds of other people, it's really an unfair question.  He stated a fact that there was a convoy on his initiative, to protect his interest, other people joined in, why other people - and he's explained to the best of his knowledge that presumably people felt more secure travelling in the convoy.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Well Mr Chairman, I'm not asking what, I'm just asking his opinion.  He can say he can't answer
it.  I'm just asking what ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He just said he can't say why.  He has just said, perhaps they were nervous.  If you were driving along the road which you knew people were frequently shot on, wouldn't you rather travel with some sense of security?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairman, exactly, that's the crux of my question, that is it not possible because they did not think that it has anything to do with business interest?

MR LAX: Well in fact, Mr Mbandazayo, doesn't it go the other way?  I mean your question, frankly doesn't take your point you're putting any further at all because you question tends to point out to the fact that it wasn't political because black people felt threatened, they used the convoy and therefore it must have been something else.  I don't see the point you're trying to put across, and in any event the witness has indicated he doesn't know why people joined the convoy.  So his opinion is irrelevant in any event.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, I thought you are asking this question because the witness has said there was a widespread perception in the community that these attacks were business inspired.  Now you are trying to, as I understand you, the purpose of your question, I thought you are now trying to ask him to reconcile the two.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Maybe I couldn't express, you express it better, Member of the Committee, that is exactly what I'm getting at because he said that it was the perception of the community.  Then if the perception of the community was that it has something to do with business, why would they go there, because they have nothing, they were not involved in any business?

MR LAX: Do you understand the question now?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I've got no comment.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairperson, I have nothing, no questions to ask of the witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR NAUDE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think you're going to be?

MR NAUDE: I've got about seven aspects to cover but, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Would you rather take the adjournment now and continue uninterruptedly or would you rather start now and go for five minutes?

MR NAUDE: If it's suitable for you to take the adjournment now, we can do that.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment now and then you can continue.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF - MACHINE SWITCHED ON

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: (s.u.o.)
NO AUDIBLE QUESTION ASKED BY MR NAUDE

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: ... when I say detected, round about that period is where different people expressed their political beliefs, and to my knowledge, Mr Tsembeye was, and to hearsay at that time, involved with the PAC and APLA and I think anybody at that stage that was involved with APLA was anti-white, the objected was killing white people.

MR NAUDE: And despite the fact that since then, about eight to nine years from then until now, Mr Buyafuti is still a co-director with Mr Hatting in his hardware business.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I don't know that.

MR NAUDE: I want to put it to you that it is in fact the situation, that Mr Buyafuti and Mr Hatting up to now are still directors in the hardware business.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I believe you.

MR NAUDE: Tell me, did Mr Buyafuti or Mr Hatting in any way gain by the attacks that were made on Mr van Rooyen or Mrs Brummer or Mr Schroeder?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Not to my knowledge, no.

MR NAUDE: Those people that were attacked, were they in any way or sense business rivals of Mr Buyafuti or Mr Hatting?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Let's put it this way, they were business rivals of any businessman in Sterkspruit at that time, they formed part of the business community.  I can't say they were rivals of only Mr Hatting or Mr Tsembeye, they were rivals of mine as well, they were business people in Sterkspruit.

MR NAUDE: How could Mr van Rooyen, a baker, be in competition with Mr Buyafuti and Mr Hatting having hardware stores?  Can you just explain that to us?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Mr Tsembeye had interests in a butchery, in  hardware store and in a retail grocery outlet.  Those to my knowledge were the three businesses that he had ...(intervention)

MR NAUDE: You're still not answering my question.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: ... interests in, okay.

MR LAX: Can you just let the witness finish?

MR NAUDE: Yes?