Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: You mean from inside?

MR PRIOR: That is correct.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I moved as I was leaving through the door.

MR PRIOR: What I want to establish, did you go any further into the tavern while you were shooting or when you were shooting?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all that tavern has a passage - I went inside just a bit, as I was walking in I was shooting.  I did not start shooting only when I was inside, I was shooting as I was going in - my cover was the wall.

MR PRIOR: If you look at Exhibit A, photograph 2a, is it correct you can see cartridges in the passageway?  That is immediately in front of the door by which you entered the premises.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see those white circles?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I can see them.

MR PRIOR: Would you agree that those must have been - as you say you entered and shot whilst you were entering the tavern, those must have been some of your cartridges that we see on the floor, is that correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: You could put it that way.

MR PRIOR: Did you shoot from any other position other than that passageway?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was shooting from the passageway.

MR PRIOR: Into where the people were sitting at tables or sitting on top of tables, is that right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was just shooting everywhere at people, I was shooting.  Where people were I shot.

MR PRIOR: Look at the second photograph on page 2, photograph b, can you see the two deceased persons lying on the raised portion?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I can see it.

INTERPRETER: From the previous answer the witness had said that the rifle was on repeat - the attorney was going too fast, I could not interpret that.

MR PRIOR: Were you shooting on automatic fire?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Now if you look at that photograph b on page 2 and if you look against the panelling - that is where, between the two deceased lying on the raised section.  We saw yesterday on the video and the photograph you can see there's a chalk - a circle drawn in chalk which indicates a cartridge case.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I can see that.

MR PRIOR: Now you say that you were the only person that fired or shot inside the premises.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I'm the one who entered the tavern.

MR PRIOR: Can we then accept that that cartridge must have come from your rifle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I want to suggest to you that you must have been very close to those deceased persons who you shot, for your cartridge to have ended up where it in fact  did.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There was people - when I entered there was already shooting and I was shooting too, if I see this picture clearly these people are right opposite the glass door from where the other comrades were shooting from.  I could not have gone in and started shooting at closer range because my comrades were also shooting, I could also have been killed.

MR PRIOR: I hear you and are you then suggesting that those people we see on the photograph 2b, possibly were shot by Mr Gqomfa and Jantjie who were shooting through the window from the outside?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: According to this picture you see cartridges next to these people - well I don't know who shot at those specific people, they were shooting and I was shooting but I think the cartridges I see on the picture are mine.

MR PRIOR: So would you agree that maybe in the excitement of the attack, you could have gone very close to the people who you shot - allowing the cartridges to fall as we see photograph, one on the table, one near the head of the deceased on the raised portion and if we turn over the page to page 3, under the bench and also page 4 at the foot of the raised section to the left of Rolanda Palm where she was lying?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The question is not clear.

MR PRIOR: Well I'm going to put it to you that you must have moved away from the passage where you say you were taking shelter and you must have entered into that area where the patrons were seated on the tables or at the tables, drinking their drinks, enjoying themselves, listening to the music.  You must have gone right into that section when you fired your R4 rifle at them.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is not correct.  I was inside - as I was the person inside, I was shooting from the passage.  If I had gone in and be almost amongst those people, I would have put my life in danger because the other comrades were shooting - I would have put my life in danger.

MR PRIOR: Yes, the evidence that was lead at the trial and also the question put by Mr Cornelius yesterday suggested that after the initial shooting there was a lull and thereafter more shooting occurred and the impression that Mr Cornelius certainly suggested to Mr Gqomfa, was that it was an automatic fire but shooting one and two rounds at a time, in other words deliberate fire.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: When I entered, the other comrades were already shooting as well.  I don't know whether they started shooting and stopped again but when I entered, my rifle was already on repeat - it was on repeat fire.

MR PRIOR: All right.  The plan was you would - at that stage you were only to fire the rifle grenade as a signal to withdraw, is that correct - that was Mr Gqomfa's evidence yesterday?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct Sir.

MR PRIOR: You weren't supposed to go into the tavern at all - if I understand your evidence today, your amended evidence?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct Sir, I was not meant to have gone in because of the situation.  There was somebody who emerged from the branches, I saw him coming as a soldier ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Was that person armed?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know whether he was armed or not armed but I saw someone running towards another direction, someone emerging from the other people.  He passed the door where I was at, this is why I thought I should go in and shoot from inside.

MR PRIOR: To shoot that particular person and stop him from running away?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I did not know as he was running, what he was going to do.  I was there to protect the unit, to make sure that nobody's injured.  I did not know what this man was up to or whether he was armed.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Prior.   Mr Madasi, is it not natural that people run away when they're being shot at?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: People do run away but if people are in a place like a house, I don't know what they would do - I don't know how they would run.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position not that whether there was movement of people or not, you had gone there to kill people.  You had gone there to shoot whether there was movement or not ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So even if there was no movement of people, you would have still gone there to shoot because those were your orders.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was going to shoot but I was not going to enter the tavern, the reason why I went in is because I saw that person.  The orders I was given was I had to stand in my position.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, you disobeyed those orders, is that right - by going into the tavern against your commander Gqomfa's instructions, is that so?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I did not disobey any order, I had to protect the comrades.  Seeing that man who was running - I obey orders at all times when I am on a mission.  It's not about disobeying orders, I had to protect the comrades and myself as well and this is why I entered the tavern.

MR PRIOR: You had to protect your comrades who were outside shooting into the tavern, is that what you're saying - you had to protect them?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I had to protect them and myself, I did not know whether that man was armed or not.

MR PRIOR: But you could see him moving down or moving across the passage?