Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

CHAIRPERSON: Then whilst your absence is gonna be missed by me, I'm sure that we'll be seeing more of you.
GENERAL LAUGHTER

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn now and we will resume at 13h50.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I've been told that on - those who have difficulty, his evidence in Afrikaans can be heard on channel 4.

J M S POTGIETER: (Duly sworn in, states)

MR DORFLING: Chairperson, Sergeant, you are a Sergeant that is stationed at the Border Police, Johannesburg International Airport?

J M S POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: On the 28th of March 1994 you were a Constable in the South African Police, and on that day you were stationed at the Small Street Satellite Police Station, is that correct?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is there not another way that we can do this, because one is hearing English and Afrikaans at the same time?  Is it not possible for the interpreter to sit in the panel - in the booth?
CHANNELS BEING TESTED BY INTERPRETER - CONTINUED ON TAPE 3

MR DORFLING: ... of March 1994, Sergeant, you were stationed at Small Street Satellite Police Station?

J M S POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: During that morning you were posted for service at Shell House, and more specifically on the corners of King George and Plein Street?

J M S POTGIETER: Originally we were posted to patrol in the station, and the Colonel gave us the instruction to patrol at Shell House.

MR DORFLING: Were you on foot when you were posted at Shell House?

J M S POTGIETER: We were transported there with a vehicle, but at that stage we were on foot.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any Zulu marchers going past Shell House when you were there?

J M S POTGIETER: No.

MR DORFLING: Shortly before what is known now as the chief shooting incident, certain events took place in which you were involved.  Can you briefly describe what happened?

J M S POTGIETER: I was on the corner of Plein and Klein Streets.  We heard a gunshot in a western direction, we ran in that direction.  When we crossed King George we heard shots being fired from the back of us.  We took shelter, turned back and saw that there was an ANC guard, and we gave him the order to stop firing.

MR DORFLING: You said that there was an ANC guard on the parapet and you gave him the order to stop firing?

J M S POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Did you see him firing?

J M S POTGIETER: I heard him shooting.

MR DORFLING: What happened next?

J M S POTGIETER: We stood up and moved back in the direction of Klein Street.  When we crossed King George we saw a group of protest-marchers in King George Street at Noord Street.

MR DORFLING: You therefore moving down from west to east in Plein Street in the direction of King George Street at that stage?

J M S POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Where exactly did you see the protest-marchers?

J M S POTGIETER: They were in King George Street on the corner of Noord Street.  It was a large group, they were in King George street between De Villiers and Noord.

MR DORFLING: In what direction were these marchers moving?

J M S POTGIETER: They were moving southwards down King George?

MR DORFLING: In the direction of De Villiers?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Where exactly was your position at that stage?

J M S POTGIETER: I was on the corner of Plein and King George.

MR DORFLING: And what happened next?

J M S POTGIETER: Then between 10 and 15 ANC guards arrived on the scene.  Sergeants Van Reenen and Van Greenen moved northward up from Plein Street in the direction of De Villiers in order to prevent the approaching Zulus.

MR DORFLING: Were there any other Police members with you where you were?

J M S POTGIETER: Myself and Sergeant Gollach.

MR DORFLING: What happened next?

J M S POTGIETER: I was with the ANC guards and Sergeant van Reenen that was with the ANC guards, that stood between them and Sergeant van Reenen.

MR DORFLING: So you were more or less in the vicinity of the corners of King George and Plein Streets?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Between 10 to 15 ANC guards, those that you saw there, were they armed?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Which arms did you see?

J M S POTGIETER: Handguns as well as a man with an AK.

MR DORFLING: What happened next?

J M S POTGIETER: I turned around and looked at Sergeant van Reenen and the others to see what was happening, then when I turned around again and ANC guard was pointing a weapon at my chest and told me to leave or he would shoot me personally.

MR DORFLING: In other words you looked northward up King George and De Villiers Street in the direction of the protest-marchers; after that you turned around, you were still on that corner and at that stage the weapon was pressed against your chest?

J M S POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: What happened after that?

J M S POTGIETER: I moved around and saw that the man was serious.  I went to stand behind them.  From there I looked in the direction of De Villiers Street and saw Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant van Greenen being pushed out of the way, in the directions of east and west.

MR DORFLING: Just a moment, you said that you moved around them, you are now referring to the ANC guards?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: What do you mean when you say that you moved around them?

J M S POTGIETER: If I stood like this, I moved around them to the back.

MR DORFLING: Were they in a specific formation?

J M S POTGIETER: No they were just a group of people standing there.

MR DORFLING: You took your position in behind them and looked in the direction of De Villiers Street - north, what happened then?

J M S POTGIETER: They told us that they would shoot, upon which we told them not to shoot, and upon the moment that Sergeant van Reenen and the others were pushed out of the way, the shots were fired.

MR DORFLING: Where did the shots get fired?

J M S POTGIETER: From De Villiers over the street corners into King George, that was approximately 5 to 6 steps from the corners when they pushed the two officials out of the way.

MR DORFLING: So these protest-marchers crossed De Villiers Street, they were moving in a southward direction, and you say that the front part moved into King George approximately 5 to 6 metres?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: And when the shots were fired, did you know from where they were fired?

J M S POTGIETER: From among the guards.

MR DORFLING: Are those the guards behind which you took your position?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: What did you do then?

J M S POTGIETER: When the shots - while they were still shooting we kept on asking them "don't shoot, don't shoot", but when the shots went off I ran around the building to see what had happened to Sergeants van Reenen and Van Greenen.

MR DORFLING: When you say that you ran behind the building - or around the building, do you mean from east to west down Plein and then north into Klein, and then once again west into De Villiers?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, from west to east in Klein and then from east to west in De Villiers.

MR DORFLING: So you ran past the main entrance of Shell House, around the Shell House building, into De Villiers?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Until the stage that the first shots were fired, did you watch the protest-marchers?

J M S POTGIETER: Correct, it was one image from where I stood.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any fire-arms among the marchers at that stage?

J M S POTGIETER: No.