Human Rights Violation Hearings — Messina — 1997-04-08

MS NKUNDLANE: Yes, it is.  I don't understand the question.

DR RANDERA: Sorry.  Are they two different incidences altogether?

MS NKUNDLANE: It is too different incidents.

DR RANDERA: Okay so this gentleman, Pops, again it seemed like he became the target in, in, in the community for some reason.  His house gets burnt, his car gets burnt, he gets accused of, of being involved in witchcraft.  Can you tell us a little more about that?

MS NKUNDLANE: Those incidents happened at the time but I don't, as I'm saying now, indicating that I was not there when those things happened.  I actually know nothing.  There's nothing I can say.

DR RANDERA: In your statement, you talk of being part of the ANC in underground.

MS NKUNDLANE: That's true.

DR RANDERA: Did you leave the country for, before that?  At any time?

MS NKUNDLANE: No, I was always inside the country.

DR RANDERA: Dr Ally earlier on asked somebody else the question about the consumer boycotts and who was behind those boycotts.  Was that organized by the ANC or the UDF?

MS NKUNDLANE: It was organized by the community because the youth, at the time, we were, we were actually leaders to the community but we could not actually tell the community what to do.  The community would decide on their own and agree what to do and decide who will be their leaders.  And when they decide to do something we would be the leaders to that decision.

DR RANDERA: The policeman who were, in, involved in your arrest and subsequent torture, are they still in the community and are they still working within the police force?

MS NKUNDLANE: Yes, some, some of them are still around but most of them are not here.  I don't know where they are.

DR RANDERA: Can I, can I ask you your opinion, in case these people do apply for amnesty and amnesty is granted, what would you feel?

MS NKUNDLANE: That can be a good ting, thing if they could apply for amnesty and I would like it if they can come to me and explain why they were torturing me.  I would like to know the main reason.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.  Joyce !

MS SEROKE: Porschia, you are saying here this in, incident of burning Mr Polwani's car was not actually related to politics.

MS NKUNDLANE: I can't say it was not related or related.  What I know is that maybe the way they took it at the time, they had to relate it to politics because I was a political activist at the time.  The politics would be, pol, police were against politicians and we had work underground all the time because we're fighting for freedom.  So I think, for them to, to relate this incident to politics, they didn't actually have, they didn't have the reason to, to, to, to arrest me.  They used the incident just to arrest me.

MS SEROKE: Were they actually looking for at the time and they didn't have the reason?

MS NKUNDLANE: Yes, that's true.

DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata !

THOMAS MANTHATA: Porschia, are you saying some of you who were arrested were, were taken to court?  What did they do?

MS NKUNDLANE: They were being questioned about this incident of, of a car being burnt.

THOMAS MANTHATA: These people who were taken to court, were they not members of any political organization?

MS NKUNDLANE: They were members of the ANC Youth League.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What did they explain, what was actually their reason for burning Pops' car if they were members of political organization and Pops was not?

MS NKUNDLANE: I don't understand the question.

THOMAS MANTHATA: My question is that, it they were really members of political organizations, why were they burning Pops' car who was not a member of any political organization or even the burning of the car not being related to politics?

MS NKUNDLANE: They way I understood it, they burnt his car after this rumour of him killing the teachers and other people.   That's why they, they burnt his car.  Another thing which I can explain to you is that for the police to relate this incident with politics is that when the car was bunt we were from the meeting at the community hall.  It was a youth meeting and we were trying to vote for a Committee.  We were trying to start a Committee at the time and we were not, we could not reach consensus and some of us, I think, tried to, to go after that, the meeting to organize to burn the car but we did not discuss that at the meeting.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I see it was not a political decision?

MS NKUNDLANE: No.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Oh fine.   You political leaders at the time, is it true that you, you could not, you could not stop them?

MS NKUNDLANE: Yes, it was difficult to stop these people at the time because they were going to cause problems.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I would like to ask you how, how, for how long did they torture you and arrest you?

MS NKUNDLANE: Do you mean in 1990 when I was arrested?  They did not arrest me once, it was many times.  I want to know, are you relating to the 1990 incident?

THOMAS MANTHATA: I believe that you're going to explain to us everything which happened to you because of your political affiliation at the time.

MS NKUNDLANE: The way I was in those years, I was very active in politics.  Even if it was just a group of men in a meeting or an organization, I would be the only woman or a lady.  That's why the police wanted me and they did not arrest me once, they came to me many times.  I think it's about four times.  After the burning of Pops' house they came and arrested me together with Tshalo Moraba.  They came and told me that when the teachers was, was, was hit by a train, they said we came and threw stones to his house.  They took us to the police cells but we only stayed there for two days.  They released us and in all these cases I was, I was freed,  I was given discharge.  I was not actually involved.  They came, they were actually arresting me for the things that  I did not do.  They came again in 1992.  We were calling ourselves Messina Action Committee.  They arrested us for plus minus eight dates, eight days.  They separated us. Some of us took, were taken to Soekmekaar, some in Pietersberg and some in Louis Trichardt.  I was alone in Louis Trichardt.  It was a very frightening place.  It was dark.  I was at a cell in Louis Trichardt.  It was a two roomed cell.  That was a bedroom and a toilet at the same time.  The toilet was not working well.  They were giving me dirty food and they were throwing it to me just as they did before in 1990.  There  was one guy who was my brother-in-law.  He would actually make an effort to go and buy me clean food and bring them to me and I was supposed to hide it because he would be in trouble.  That's when Serf came and Katchalia.  They took us and we didn't know where the police were taking us to.  We passed through Mara and we fetched some people and we were taken to Pietersberg to meet Katchalia and Ntai and they tried  to negotiate with the police to release us and they were not telling us the main reason why they were arresting us.   When we arrived in Pietersberg, they said we were the ones who arr, organized a consumer boycott in Messina and we said, how, how can we organize  a boycott.  It was the community because we cannot stop what the community wants to do.  At the time there were other ten youths who were arrested.  After the Committee was arrested, those youths actually, they started demanding our release.  They wanted to free us and we actually started to demand their release too after, after we learnt in Pietersberg that there, there are other ten youths who were arrested and we denied, we didn't want to be released because we wanted them to be released too and they agreed that they'll release them and that's when we agreed.  Actually they were just torturing us and threatening us.  Every time they would, they would arrest guys and I would be the only lady even though I didn't do anything.