Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THAMI HLATSWAYO: In the morning - okay, the message comes, I think it was Oupa, ja, who brought the message, it was Oupa.

MR SEMENYA: So it is not Mrs Mandela who says you must come, it's Oupa who says Mrs Mandela says you must come?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, Oupa said we must wait there, Mrs Mandela will be coming there to meet us that house, No.3, which was our base.

MR SEMENYA: Really, I can't follow what you're telling us.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Can I speak Zulu?  May I speak Zulu?

CHAIRPERSON: You can speak any language that you want. You can express yourself in any language that you wish.
[The speaker's mike is not on.]

THAMI HLATSWAYO: After Vincent had been shot, Mrs Mandela told me personally that Vincent had been shot.  After Vincent had died, because I didn't know as to where Vincent stayed, I went to Oupa, and Oupa was the one who had earlier brought Vincent to us, and we said Oupa, because you brought Vincent to us, it is up to you to go and tell his parents that he had been killed.  And Oupa said he was going to go and tell Mrs Mandela.  And the very same night Oupa went - (intervention)

MR SEMENYA: Who is Oupa now?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Oupa Rantau He is alive.  When Oupa came back he told us that Mrs Mandela had told him that we should wait for her on that particular day in the morning and he was going to come with the other boy who had got a shoe.  The following morning we waited at house No.3 and a kombi, VW, arrived. It was a two-tone kombi, powder blue at the bottom and white at the top, and that kombi, I think there were four inside, it was Mrs Mandela sitting at the back, together with Peter.  Mrs Mandela got out of the kombi, they got in through the front door, Dipuo opened the door for them.  Dipuo is the owner of house No.3, and they got inside and got us there waiting for them, and Peter asked Dipuo as to what had happened.  Dipuo said she didn't know anything but she referred to me and said they should ask me.  And I told them that we were inside the house, we were conducting a meeting with the aim of conducting a certain mission in Bophuthatswana, but the mission was not accomplished because I was told that I should wait only 15 minutes after Mrs Mandela had gone out.  And I told him that after 15 minutes he or she didn't show out. Later then I told Mrs Mandela that when I went out I came across Tsepo, who told me that as they approached the corner from a schoolmate's birthday party they saw a car hitting a person at the corner and that corner was not far from the house No.3.  I went back after getting this message with the aim of telling them that I had got this news.  And I heard the woman from next door, and said this car actually hit the person on the pavement, and I went into the house with that message and told Dipuo the very same message. When Winnie got wind of this news, asked as to where this woman is, she wanted to see this woman desperately.

MR SEMENYA: ....memorised version is your attempt to tell me when you met Mrs Mandela the first time?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: (not translated)

MR SEMENYA: All of this long story is intended to tell me when did you meet Mrs Mandela?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That is what I am trying to explain as to how I met Mrs Mandela for the first time.

MR SEMENYA: Again it would seem Vincent died - must have had injuries consistent with the motor vehicle collision, right?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Could you repeat your question?

MR SEMENYA: The version you have, Vincent must have had injuries which are consistent with a car collision because you say you were told he was hit by a car?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, Winnie told me that he had been hit by a car and they hit him where I'm pointing because he had a bullet hole at the back of his head.

MR SEMENYA: After he was hit by a car, was he then shot at the same spot?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I do not believe that it happened at the same spot.

MR SEMENYA: Somebody who has been hit by a car.  Then you say he has a bullet wound.  When was this bullet wound inflicted, immediately after the collision?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: As I have already explained, I was told by Winnie.

MR SEMENYA: ... Winnie, I don't understand.  As far as I know this guy was hit by a car. Who would have shot him, because they took his firearm, this is your friend remember, they took his firearm and left the car.  Why don't you confront him and say it doesn't make sense?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Ask Winnie that. Is that what you are saying to me?

MR SEMENYA: (indistinct)

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It's very difficult to answer your question because I do not know what you are getting at.

MR SEMENYA: .....Mrs Mandela, I don't understand how that person could have had a bullet wound because, according to the story I know, after he was hit by a car a gun fell out of his pocket and they just took the gun and drove away.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: The first thing I am going to say to you is that it was very difficult at that time to ask such a question.  The way that things happened even Mrs Mandela wasn't happy when she told me that, and it was going to be very difficult for me to answer that type of a question, or ask that type of a question.

MR SEMENYA: You're scared - (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just hold, please, there's a bit of a problem.  Zulu is 3.  Are you going to speak Zulu or Sotho?  Thank you, you may continue.

MR SEMENYA: You were saying the reason you didn't ask is because you were scared?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I wasn't scared, but the situation didn't warrant a person to be asking such questions.  They were actually telling me and they didn't want to hear as to what I was saying.

MR SEMENYA: .... missing on the day.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Could you repeat your question?

MR SEMENYA: .... the situation was not conducive for you to question her about that. What was wrong with the situation?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: The first thing, the way in which she asked the question was not really in a manner that a person would talk to me after somebody's death.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: ... first time, according to your theory, Vincent must have been killed at the instance of Mrs Mandela, right?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Mrs Mandela told me that she went to identify him at the mortuary and .....

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please wait for the interpreters, we are battling to interpret here?  Could the speaker wait for the witness to answer the question, please?

MR VALLY: There has been a request from the interpreters and I see Mr Semenya does not have his headphones on so he doesn't know that he is not giving them adequate opportunity to interpret his questions.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could sort of give the interpreters a chance. English and Zulu don't use the same number of words.

MR SEMENYA: I'll do that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a headset there because then it might just help you. I thought you had one.  Thank you.  Zulu is channel 3.

MR SEMENYA: On what channel should I have it then?

CHAIRPERSON: Channel 3.

MR SEMENYA: I would understand his Zulu. If I listened in Zulu and English it might disturb my train of thought.  I will try and pace my questions to be - (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Pace, pace them, yes.  And I would also be grateful, I mean, you know, what you have is limited cross-examination, not like you would do in court.  Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: And on that point, Chairperson, I will take the cue from the Chair as to whether I am going outside the time frame.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think basically you want maybe to contest facts and - thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Hlatswayo, I was saying according to what I understand you and according to your story, Vincent was killed because of his tension, as you put it, with Mrs Mandela?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That is true.

MR SEMENYA: Now this tension, it's a tension you hear from Moshoshove?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That is correct.