Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: It was an office at Vlakplaas that was used for briefing special ops members.  If somebody goes for a special operation, you go into that office and you get briefed.

ADV SANDI: Who had called you to that office?

JOE MAMASELA: We were called by both de Kock and Venter into the office.

ADV SANDI: Was Mr de Kock supposed to be getting a report as to what has happened in Port Elizabeth?

JOE MAMASELA: He never gave us that type of indication, he just told us there is problems in Eastern Cape and then we should go and help with the abduction and elimination of the suspects and he said Mr Venter will give us further briefings, that's all he said.

ADV SANDI: When you say Mr de Kock participated briefly, what exactly do you mean?  Are you suggesting that someone else had more participation in this than Mr de Kock?

JOE MAMASELA: Definitely Sir.

ADV SANDI: And who was that?

JOE MAMASELA: And that was Colonel Roelf Venter.

ADV SANDI: Should one understand you to be suggesting that Mr Venter was the main source of instructions, if one can put it that way?

JOE MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct Mr Chairman, with due respect.

ADV SANDI: So you were under the impression that your instructions were coming from Mr Venter and not really Mr de Kock?

JOE MAMASELA: That is true Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Why must you be under such an impression if it was the two of them who briefed him initially?

JOE MAMASELA: Mr de Kock just said: "Guys listen, there's a report from Port Elizabeth that there are problems there and there are people that had to be eliminated and I don't have full details with me but Mr Venter who will be leaving with you to Port Elizabeth will give you full briefings", and he left the matter with Mr Venter.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, were you still asking any questions?

MR LAMEY: I've got no further questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: But then it seems as though Venter at that stage didn't have full details too, he went down to Port Elizabeth and was really instructed down here what the full instructions were.

JOE MAMASELA: Mr Chairman with due respect, I've already elaborated in full detail that Warrant Officer, Colonel Venter gave us full instructions that there are these people that are making the township ungovernable in Port Elizabeth, we should go there and help with the abduction and the elimination.
	We left together with him to Port Elizabeth and he further called us to Port Elizabeth police station and where we helped the people there with the investigation and ultimately we were briefed by the Port Elizabeth security police in front of Mr Venter who also added.
	 And he's the one who gave us instructions to go back to the bases and he is the one who fetched us at the bases and to the airport.  So you played the major ...[indistinct] role in the whole thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Nyoka?

MR NYOKA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  For the record, I'm acting for the three widows, Mrs Galela, Godolozi and Hashe.  I promise to be brief Mr Chairman and I won't commit to two minutes as I normally do.
	Mr Mamasela, when you spoke to the City Press reporter the first time about the PEBCO 3, was the report read back to you for confirmation of it's correctness or faxed or sent to you before it was either printed or published?

JOE MAMASELA: I have stated in the Commission already about the City Press report of 1994 where I was operating under the name of Sergeant, under nom de guerre of Sergeant X.  I said the said reporter, Mr Alias Mololeke made the report out of my synopsis, not really my statement, out of my synopsis and he put all his own words there to make the story complete.

MR NYOKA: So it was never sent back to you for confirmation of it's correctness, that was my question.

JOE MAMASELA: No, it was never sent to me.

MR NYOKA: Thank you.  Had that been done, would you have able to correct those aspects which you felt were incorrect?

JOE MAMASELA: I would have definitely done so.  As I have already taken action with my attorneys, instructing them that they must stop City Press from continuing distorted facts about me.

MR NYOKA: And when you spoke to Jacques Paauw and he wrote down your statement, did he read it back to you before the transcript was printed or published?

JOE MAMASELA: He promised to but even up to this day he never provided me with any transcripts.

MR NYOKA: That must have been a very long promise because that was 1994/'93, it's  1998 now.

JOE MAMASELA: We had a protected legal struggle with SABC concerning that, I've got documentary proof to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't quite appreciate what it is that was not given to him to read first or for comment.

MR NYOKA: The aspects that related to him Your Worship, that he was said to have said to Jacques Paauw because he has certain misgivings about certain contents of those statements, that's what I want to ascertain.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I thought what we have here was a direct transcript of what was actually said on TV or is there something that I'm missing?

MR BOOYENS: No, there's nothing that you missed Mr Chairman, I think there's something that my learned friend missed.  This exhibit that we handed in, the Jacques Paauw interview, the Jacques Paauw interview was an exhibit in the Mxhenge trial in Durban.  That is the dialog that appears on a video made with Mr Mamasela and Jacques Paauw, so that is the dialog of the video.

CHAIRPERSON: So what we have is a direct transcript.

MR BOOYENS: That is a direct transcript of a video that the witness and Mr Jacques Paauw made.  That was an exhibit in the Durban trial.

MR LAMEY: I can just say Mr Chairman, add here, I've got that video recording available.  If necessary the Committee could have a look at that.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Nyoka, it seems to me maybe we are not on the same wavelength but I was looking at one of these exhibits, I don't remember which exhibit it was.  I'm under the impression that this is a direct transcript of the dialog.

MR NYOKA: If Mr Chairman, it related to the Mxhenge matter I'm not interested, I'm just interested in the PEBCO matter.  I will leave that and I will got another matter.
	You need not answer in other words, I'm withdrawing my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR NYOKA: Basically to the media you stuck to the same story about what happened to the PEBCO 3 even though you did not do that chronologically.

JOE MAMASELA: That is correct.

MR NYOKA: And basically before the TRC in the Section 29 hearing and in your evidence in chief you stuck to the same story even though you did not do so chronologically or in the same manner, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct Sir.

MR NYOKA: I wish to put it to you that you appear to be speaking from the heart and spontaneously Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct Sir.

MR NYOKA: Although you don't want to be linked with Mr Mogoai but you and Mr Mogoai made a good impression, you did have convenient memory lapses about the incident like other applicants.

JOE MAMASELA: I can only speak about myself because I was not here when Mr Mogoai was speaking.  I did not have selective amnesia, I don't suffer from that disease.

MR NYOKA: Thank you.  And you are not an applicant in this matter and in any other amnesty hearing, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct Sir.

MR NYOKA: You have no interest or not whether or not the applicants are granted amnesty.

JOE MAMASELA: It will benefit me with nothing.

MR NYOKA: Would you have any reason to be bitter towards any of the applicants that you knew in that occasion?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I have nothing against them.  I just spoke the truth and that's why I said last week Tuesday I met with Piet Mogoai and we greeted and we hugged and we were friends.  I have no reason to be bitter or to be against them.