Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR DE RU: Your Lordship, what is important is that this exhibit be handed in before you especially with regards to page two.  It is about my remorse and the circumstances under which this crime was committed.  And also what I want to maintain before this Committee is that the way I saw my -my view of my career and my beliefs back then have since changed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be right then that this document, if I understood you correctly, is just sketching out your personal circumstances?  Will that be correct and remorse?

MR DE RU: That is correct, your Worship.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: One point I would like to ask you before re-examination takes place.  My recollection is that when you gave your evidence-in-chief, you told us that you saw the body of the deceased, in the first case, before you went out to the farm and as a result of what you saw and the injuries that had been inflicted, you decided this was a political attack.  Is that so?

MR DE RU: That is correct, your Worship.

JUDGE WILSON: Re-examination, any?

MR MADASA: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Mr de Ru, is it correct that at the time you were employed by the South African Police, the divisions between various branches of the police were not strictly adhered to in terms of work that would be carried out by a particular division?  Do you understand my question?

MR DE RU: Could you please repeat the question?  I am not sure what the question is.

MR MADASA: Was it common, at the time you were an active member of the police, for police, for example, in the Murder and Robbery Unit, to be involved in the activities of different branch of the police, was that common?

MR DE RU: That is correct, your Worship.

MR MADASA: Am I correct when I say that the farming community in the Free State looked upon the police as, for security upon the attack on them by the people who attacked them?

MR DE RU: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Was your killing of these two people we are talking about now, an act to avenge the killings on the farmers?

MR DE RU: No, I would not see it as revenge.

MR MADASA: How did you see them?

MR DE RU: Your Worship, I saw it as a way of stopping these acts committed by people inspired by political motive.

MR MADASA: In other words you saw the killings as a preventative measure against the attack on the farmers, is that what you are saying?

MR DE RU: That is correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.  Thank you, this matter will now be adjourned.  This matter will now have to be adjourned.  I gather, a date, a tentative date has been arranged.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I am not aware, what, what I know is that some dates have been suggested, but we have not finalised that, Mr Chairman.  We are going to be in touch with the, with the lawyers in due course.  We are looking at making use of the month of May, but we have not finalised the dates, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, we were told the 5th of May, that week had been finalised.  Is that not so?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, Mr Chairman.  If it has been finalised with some of us, somebody has, this was suggested to me, Mr Chairman, we have not finalised.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, I think your assistant, Mr Bile, as far as we know it has been finalised.

JUDGE WILSON: What date?

ADV DE JAGER: I thought all the lawyers were consulted.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, it is not so.  During lunch time I was talking, I was talking to all the lawyers and I said I will come back to them very soonest, earliest next week about the date in May.

MS THABETHE: Members of the Committee, the dates, I would say, have been finalised in the sense that we have made arrangements, but we have not informed the lawyers, I am in the process of doing that.  I am sorry I did not inform Mr Mpshe.

JUDGE WILSON: When is this case to be heard?

MS THABETHE: The date is the 5th of May, Monday.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well, we have a date.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, as I was indicating, I was not even involved in the finalisation thereof.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, we understood everybody had been told.

MS THABETHE: I apologise.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It was not so, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well, we will adjourn this matter till the 5th of May.  The arrangement will have to be made for a suitable venue.

MR MADASA: Mr Chair.

JUDGE WILSON: I am well aware, I am sure the pupils would think it a fascinating exercise to have during term time, I do not think the school as such would.  We would have to find a different venue.

MS THABETHE: They have got a venue, they have got a venue.

MR MADASA: Mr Chair....

JUDGE WILSON: They have got a venue, I gather.

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, may I, may I ask is this the postponing of all the hearings ...

JUDGE WILSON: No.

MR MADASA: ... that we ...

JUDGE WILSON: No, this particular matter.

MR MADASA: Thank you, Mr Chair.  So the, the Committee is going to come on another occasion to hear other matters?

JUDGE WILSON: In the same week, later, but this case will be heard, this will be the first case to be heard on Monday, the 5th of May and, in our view, is the only case that should be set down for that day.

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair, my difficulty is that I am involved in a part-heard matter in that, in that week in Johannesburg.  And the following Monday, Mr Shongweni, who is also participating in one of the matters which has been postponed, will be attending hearings before the TRC on ANC submissions and, you know, we have a difficulty, there is a difficulty with Ms Thabethe's information to the Committee that the matter has been finalised.  In fact, Mr Mpshe was telling the truth, that during the lunch time certain dates had been mooted, but no conclusion was reached, because in due course we are going to finalise matters.

JUDGE WILSON: Well....

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe, are you aware that this Committee as constituted now, has also got its difficulties and the week of the 5th would be a suitable week.  So, if that could be arranged it would suit us all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The ...

ADV DE JAGER: I understand the difficulties of the lawyers.  If they cannot make it, in fact, they cannot make it, but if alternative arrangements could be made that we could finish all these part heard matters at least because (indistinct) matters (indistinct).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am very much, I am very much indebted.  May I, may I suggest that the Committee leaves this to us and the lawyers that, so that we finalise and we will come back to the Committee very soon about the dates.  They will be announced as early as next week.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, very soon means, very soon means very soon, because other arrangements have to be made by other bodies of importance and we cannot sit around waiting for dates.  The dates must be finalised, I am talking now only of the part-heard matters that must be disposed of.  The other matters can be set down on any other date.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, it ...

JUDGE WILSON: Part-heard matters must be arranged.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Immediately after Easter, Mr Chairman, the Committee will be informed.

ADV DE JAGER: The trouble is, Mr Mpshe, you have got the Press here, the Press would like to inform the people and now you will have to inform all the people again and you had complaints of people saying they have been informed and they heard in the Press that a matter has already been heard.  There is opportunity now to advise all the people that the matter will be heard and we are not using the opportunity.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, much as the, the point is made Mr Chairman, the procedure is that when a matter is set down, at any given moment we have got the Media Committee that liaise with the, the media outside, the papers and the radios and people are told before time.  I do not see any problem with that regard.  Thank you.