Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I want to read you another one.
"The SAP's were Rambos...."
(break in transmission....)

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Stone-throwers and people who burnt trucks, and that was what I think was his job.  In the process he did it in the way that he thought was the best under the circumstances.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: "And his primary goal was to get rid of comrades in the area".

ULRICH SCHELHASE: I would not say that I agree but I understand that it was.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was Mr Barnard's immediate senior?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: I don't know Ma'am.  I don't know in which division or which section he worked.  As I understand he was also operating like a loner guy ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: A loner?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Like a loner, I don't know under which command he stood, in which division he was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And what department - was he from the Riot Squad units, was he from ...(intervention)

ULRICH SCHELHASE: I couldn't figure where he was involved in, under what command structure he was.  It could be the Riot Squad I don't know.  As I said I didn't have much dealings with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I was still reading the names of the Rambo group.  Battering rams you referred to them, MacMaster, Johan Kleyn, Dolf Odendaal, Charles Brezell(?) who incidentally had a Masters in psychology, .....Brezell, and you say that there was a mindset with these guys, terrorists who will butcher and slaughter, all boys network.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: That was very emotional and heavy words Ma'am but I do not deny that I said it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do any of the panel want to ask a question?  Maybe while people are thinking around some of the things you've told us, I would just like you to unpack for us this Oil Spot Strategy a bit, just to see it in total context.  Who were the structures involved in this - Crossroads obviously was the identified Oil Spot and who were structures?  You were one of the people, structures, your authority or committee, or social welfare, who were the other bodies that were linking up to make this strategy you've described to us successful?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Madam the Oil Spot Strategy has to be - the identification of an Oil Spot has to be supported financially in order to make it work.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so who were the bodies?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: So within the context of Oil Spot decisions or resolutions which were made at the JMC the request for financing this reward system would go through the JMC to the various departments, whether it's to the State Security Council or whether it's to a department head of some national government department, that's incidental, depending on the nature of what must be supplied and what must be rewarded.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd like us to talk about specifics in relation to Crossroads, not about incidentals.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were the structures, what were the structures involved in this particular instance?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Madam it's all-encompassing.  Let me give you a practical example.  If the need came forward from the community that they need a primary school urgently obviously the JMC system will discuss the merits of the situation and they would call in the old Department of Education and Training people, the school planners, and they will present them with the need and whether there is money involved, either the DET would provide it itself, if they did not they could go to other sources, through the JMC, that's more-or-less ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Right, no I understand.  In other words to make this strategy work, to win the minds and hearts of the people of Crossroads, the approach had to be supported right up to the ministerial level?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Absolutely.

CHAIRPERSON: And so including, I mean now flowing down from the ministerial level, there were other issues that were important, that were problematic in the area of Crossroads, issues that related to the political conflict for example.  So at that level of the political conflict you would have had to have a link somewhere to security officers to deal with that particular issue?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So the security department as well was involved in the - was one of the structures that was involved?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Ja, they had to because they had to support it, I mean it would have been counter-productive if we, from a socio-economic arm or leg of the body would now work against the recommendations of the security forces.  So I mean it had to be a unity of effort.  Everybody had to agree that this was as it should be.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it is very clear.  In other words, just finally, in other words because you had already identified the group of people, the community that was sympathetic to the ideology, the government ideology of the time, or that was supportive, that those people that you supported obviously you had to have a group of people who support the government, who are perceived somehow to be amenable to supporting the government.  So you identify those people, you are developing that group, that community.  So the reverse of that, of course, is that any effort to destroy or to stamp out opposition to this group would be supported by all these government structures, from the ministerial level down to the security department, to yourself and to the roughnecks like Barnard.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, the working of this entire project was really in the hands or in the terrain of this strategy?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes Ma'am.

CHAIRPERSON: And so we could conclude that therefore that strategy helped the instability in the area at the time?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: It was not perhaps intended but the negative aspects of it, yes, I will agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: So when you went to East London to visit Mr Ngxobongwana was Mr Sam Ndima with you?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Ma'am if I can remember correctly it was myself and Graham Lawrence and I think Prince Ngobincqwa who flew with the aircraft whilst other men from Crossroads, and I think Mr Ndima was there along, went by road and we met them in East London.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In fact Mr Ndima says that the purpose of the visit was to warn Mr Ngxobongwana not to come back because they were preparing for an attack.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: No, that is maybe his interpretation, it was not my aim of the mission.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Could you repeat again what the purpose of your mission was, specifically?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: It was important for us, when I say us, the people who worked with me, that Mr Ngxobongwana had to come back as soon as possible because the matter was getting out of hand.  The whole of Lansdowne Road and Klipfontein Road was no-go areas and we were suffering there because nothing could be delivered in the area and it was important for him, as we saw it at the time, that he must come back and instil some discipline into the situation and take control of the situation.  That is why we persuaded or tried to persuade him to come back.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: It's confusing to me.  Sam Ndima said it was going to be a particularly dangerous period, and yet you wanted Ngxobongwana to come back.  What is it that Ngxobongwana was going to do that the police and the security forces couldn't do?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Madam there was - it came to our notice that there was a coup de'tat planned against Mr Ngxobongwana ...(intervention)

MAPULE RAMASHALA: By whom?