Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I wasgoing to move on to that Judge. Would you like to respond to that?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, you can carry on.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: The second paragraph that the Judgeread to you, did you understand that?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, I didn't understand.I thought he was just referring to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think in fairness,this witness may never have seen this article at all. I think it should be placedbefore him to see it.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: We can do that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: He clearly doesn't read the

<UNKNOWN>: rgus ...

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Where about?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE The article is headed "

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: denies involvement in massacre."

MSKHAMPEPE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, can you just read it out so that it can be interpretedto him, maybe it will facilitate matters.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: The section theJudge referred to was commenting from Dar Es Salaam today an

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: spokesmansaid that the movement was still waiting ...

THOBELA MLAMBISA: If the one whois interpreting can speak in English, maybe I would understand.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I will read it for you again. It says commenting from Dar Es Salaam today an

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: spokesman said the movement was still waiting for information from itsforces on the ground, but we don't believe every killing in South

<UNKNOWN>: frica canbe attributed to

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , though

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: would issue a full statement later. He saidlast night's attack was not the sort of operation

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: would mount."

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Would you like me to answer?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you haveany comment on that?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, I do.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Whatis your comment?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: The P

<UNKNOWN>: has got its own movement. I wouldlike to know the person who wrote this. The

<UNKNOWN>: oers can also write this. I wouldlike the person who wrote this report, this spokesman, if I am talking aboutthe spokesman, they are not talking about any one, I would like the name ofthat person. Maybe Mphlalele, I just want the name of that person.

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: didnot deny their involvement in this operation.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You saidthat your instructions came from

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand, is that not right?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Is it not rather the case that thiswas an attack planned not by the High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand, but by someone in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town whowas not authorised in any way to carry out an attack of this nature?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I think it was the members of the High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand. The well-known Pepe Mphlaleleapproved what we did in St James.

<UNKNOWN>: ut he is not here todayto confirm that he approved of it, he decided not to come.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I am not saying that, I am just saying in the operation plan, I know nothingabout Letlapa, I am just referring to the operation question about the approvalof it.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: In the same bundle you have presented to us the very next page, page 37, thereis an article headed various organisations claim responsibility for the attack.

<UNKNOWN>: ccording to a spokesperson of the South

<UNKNOWN>: frican Press

<UNKNOWN>: ssociation, S

<UNKNOWN>: P

<UNKNOWN>: , aman phoned the agency on Monday morning in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town and introduced himselfas the Regional

<UNKNOWN>: ommander of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: . He apparently said that more blood wouldbe shed if the country was not returned to the

<UNKNOWN>: lacks.

<UNKNOWN>: nd then it continuesto say that the P

<UNKNOWN>: in fact the Regional Director, denied that

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was involved.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Firstly I would submit that it is clear that the P

<UNKNOWN>: at all timeshave denied participating and condemned the attack and secondly that lends somesupport I would submit to the suggestion that this was an attack planned bya local

<UNKNOWN>: ommander perhaps without authority, rather than an attack planned byHigh

<UNKNOWN>: ommand as is suggested.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes. Well, while you suggestedthat, what would the position then be as far as soldiers are concerned, if itwas in fact planned by a local

<UNKNOWN>: ommander who had authority or would you suggesthe had no authority over the foot soldiers?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well, clearlyhe wouldn't have authority to authorise attacks which were not in accordancewith P

<UNKNOWN>: and

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: policy at the time.

<UNKNOWN>: ut how would thatimpact on the foot soldier?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: To the extent that they wouldbe participating in an attack which did not comply with the political objectives,adhered to by the organisation which they purport, in whose name they purportto act, I would suggest that that is not then a legitimate political objectivewhich they were seeking to achieve.

ADV DE JAGER: Would they have knownit?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It is difficult to say whether they personally wouldhave known it, but they should certainly have been aware of the policies oftheir party at the time.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you suggest the policy oftheir party wasn't to attack Whites at the time?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: The policyof the party was clearly not to carry out attacks of this nature at the time,that is stated clearly by the representatives of those parties.

ADV DE JAGER: Would it be making any difference whether it was five farmers killed or fivepeople in the church?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I think very much, with relation tothe question of the proximity and the proportionality of the attack, it makesa very great difference, I submit.

<UNKNOWN>: ut not as far as theobject is concerned, political motive?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well, that veryquestion of proportionality and proximity is what is to be used in determiningwhether it was in fact an act associated with the political objective.

ADVDE JAGER: Yes, that is what I ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You see, if you areWhite you are White, even if you are in church or in a rugby stadium, if youare White, you are White. Maybe you will develop that point much convenientlylater during argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed with your questions.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Perhaps I can just put one more statementto the applicant. Perhaps I can refer you to page 47 of the bundle, it formspart of a press statement made by the P

<UNKNOWN>: , relating to the armed struggle. IfI can just read that to you. It says there in the first paragraph on the topof the page, in the militarised environment in our country of the 1990's inthe face of third force violence against our people and individuals in placesof worship and in trains and taxi's, internally based operatives often madeerrors that

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: had earlier avoided. There was little political work done unlikein the camps abroad. These were the causes of the departures in the 1990's whichwe as political leaders who declared war must and do take responsibility for.Even if war itself was forced upon us by the oppressor, the upholders of Whitedomination. Does that not amount to an admission that what you did was a departurefrom

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: policy at the time?

CHAIRPERSON: Once again, let him see it ifhe wishes to see it.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I thought he did have it in frontof him.

<UNKNOWN>: an I answer?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Go ahead.

<UNKNOWN>: s I've said before, we were forces on the ground. There werealso members of the High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand. They never told us the things that are writtendown, we never knew about them. I think members of the High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand and theleadership of the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: can answer this question, but not me. We are only takingorders from our

<UNKNOWN>: ommander.