Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

ADV SANDI: Before you got injured what were you doing?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: I was covering, I was in upholstery.

ADV SANDI: Could you continue your work?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: No, I could not.  I was unable to continue working because my working as an upholsterer required me to bend quite often and I suffered back problems.

ADV SANDI: Do you recall which requests you made when you submitted your statement?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Yes, I remember.

ADV SANDI: Could you just elaborate on them.

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Mr Plaatjie asked me what I would like the Commission to do for me.  I did not make any request at the time I submitted my statement.

ADV SANDI: When asked this question you said that you are now unable to work towards any income for yourself.  Is that a way of making some kind of request?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Which request is that?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: I would ask that the Commission assist me in any way, even if it is the education of my children, because I have four children who need to be educated.  Some of them have passed their matric and are unable to proceed with their education.

ADV SANDI: What standard are these children?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: They are, four of them are not at school.  The one is at technikon and my wife and mother-in-law help me with the child and the other one is in matric.

ADV SANDI: Is that all you would like to say, Mr Toyi?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: No that is not all, Mr Sandi.  When the case failed in the hands of Mr Sandi I went to the Legal Resource Centre and they told me to write to the Law Society and state what happened to my matter and they responded, I wrote to the Law Society after five years and they responded by saying that my file would not be able to be traced after five years and I then left the matter.
 I then came to the Legal Aid Clinic and stated my case and I was assisted by an elderly man who listened to my story and said, look, we would advise you to just let this case go, because it is an old matter.  If it was approximately three years old you could have had a chance.  I said to him, look, if a woman had shot me I would have let the matter be, but a man shot me and I am going to retaliate if I see him anywhere.  From there I tried to deal with this and last year I came back to the Legal Resource Centre where I met a young man who advised me to go back to the Law Society.  I told him that I had written to the Law Society and he then said I am afraid we will not be able to do anything for you, because the matter is quite old and I said, look, as men, if you assault me I am going to retaliate at some stage or another in whatever way.  He said to me you will be arrested and I said you will be the witness.

ADV SANDI: Mr Toyi, if I hear you correctly, you are saying in your statement that we would have to go to Mr Sandi and find out what went wrong in this matter.  Is that what you are trying to say?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: No, it is not that I want the matter referred back to Mr Sandi so that they could investigate what went wrong, I am just saying what happened.

ADV SANDI: Is that all you would like to say here, Mr Toyi?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs June Crichton.

JUNE CRICHTON: Mr Toyi, can you hear me?  Earlier in the proceedings today our Commissioner mentioned that we would be having a hearing later about situations in hospitals that were co-operating with the State.  Now, you were hand-cuffed to your bed and that was an abnormal position to be kept in just as people were made to stand for lengthy periods or kept in abnormal positions in prison.  Who said to you that it was the Law?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: The policeman whom I encountered sitting with the bereaved widow and the coloured lady.

JUNE CRICHTON: And the nursing staff, did they ever say anything to you about it being the Law?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: No, the nurses did not want me to be hand-cuffed to the bed.

JUNE CRICHTON: Do you know the name of the doctor who was responsible for your case?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: No, I do not.

JUNE CRICHTON: Would you recognise him if you saw him?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: I could attempt to recognise him although at the time he was fairly aged.  I do not know what he would look like today.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you Mr Toyi.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Toyi, how many people died in this incident where the police shot people that day?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: I am aware of two.

CHAIRPERSON: One of them is the daughter of Mrs Mata.  Is that so?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: I could agree, because since having heard her testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her the day she was shot?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: I saw her in hospital, but she was already deceased at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you all at the same funeral?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Yes, we were.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we then assume that you agree with Mrs Mata that her daughter was shot in that conflict?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other two you referred to, what were their names, if you can remember?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Alistair Godman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alistair Cole.

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Yes, he is the coloured boy who died.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to thank both of you for your testimony.  The requests which you have submitted before us we will include in our report and relay them to Mr Sandi who was the attorney dealing with your matter at the time and, even though you have not asked us to go back to him, we will have to enquire in an attempt to establish what happened, because that is the concept of accountability which is very important in our society today, so that people can come to terms with these things.  We will also go to the hospital which you spoke about and where you say you made a statement.  I will use this forum to say to them that they have heard the allegation made against them with regards to what happened in that hospital.  We thank you.  You may be seated.

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Excuse me, Sir, I have a problem.  I have been to doctors, not one of them can assist me.  They say that these pellets will remain in my body for life.  The pain which I experience is not due to the pellets.  Now I have given up on medical assistance, but I am still very ill.  I would like to ask the Commission to assist me with regards to my health.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Mr Toyi, for mentioning that to us and listening to your testimony and Mrs Mata's testimony, even if it is not clear to you, it is clear to her that she is very disturbed and Reverend Xundu who is on my far left will send people to meet with you and see what kind of assistance can be granted, what kind of urgent interim relief can be granted to people like yourself who appear before the Commission to put them in contact with doctors until such time as we have finalised our report and submitted it to the President.