Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-19

JUDGE WILSON: This is the submission made by the ANC in their latest submission last week, when they said that, explained that civic defence units were established in communities under attack as a joint protect between the ANC and the community concerned, and that the legitimacy of the self-defence structures were recognised in terms of the National Peace Accord.  And as I understand it, that this is what this applicant was asked to do.  That is so, is it not?

MR WILLIAMS: That's correct, Judge Wilson.  Now can you tell the Committee, did you act as a result of what Mr Hani told you?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, we started to ask the people because we had seen the people patrolling and at night, but patrolling, they are not sleeping, especially in the - the people were old that were patrolling.  So we tell them that okay, we are going to assist them. We joined them.  We inform the civic and then it is where we get certain comrades from the - to patrol the whole night.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Ndlumbini, can we come to the specifics of this application before the Committee.  Is it correct that on the 13th of October 1991, yourself and some comrades were involved in some activity, more particularly an attack?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: We were involved in the attack of the police van.  Our aim was to disarm the police so that we can arm our self-defence units.

MR WILLIAMS: Now in the process of attacking the police, did you foresee the possibility that policemen could be injured or attacked or killed?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Whereas it was not our aim to kill someone in that van, our aim was only to capture the weapons.

MR WILLIAMS: But did you foresee the possibility that policemen could be killed or injured whilst you tried to extract their weapons?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, we have seen that they could be only injured or dead in that instant, whereas it was not our aim to kill somebody.

MR WILLIAMS: If I understand you correctly, you are saying that you did foresee the possibility. Did you have any problems that if policemen were injured or attacked or killed?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Well, on the following day when I see that the van didn't stop, when we are ambushing it, I buy the paper and see that there are - they said they are slightly injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us what happened on that night before you talk about what happened in the paper the next day.  What happened on the night after you attacked the van.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Well, I was - one was carrying the R4 rifle.  I started to shoot at the van and my aim was to stop the van.  And the van didn't stop, it run away.  And then it is where my colleagues started to shoot at the van. I was already - I was already shot at the van nine shots, with the R4 rifle, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened that night after that?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: When we see that the van didn't stop, we went to go and put our bonds and patrol the areas.

JUDGE WILSON: Did the van stop?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: The van didn't stop, it just ran through.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Ndlumbini, before you continue, can I ask you if you are not going to speak in Xhosa, that you take off the head-phones.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You have told us you fired nine shots with an R4 rifle. Were your companions armed?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, they were armed.

JUDGE WILSON: What with?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: They were armed with a shot-gun and hand-guns.

JUDGE WILSON: Four of them, three of them were armed, were they?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: They were armed, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And did they fire?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: I'm sorry?

JUDGE WILSON: Did they fire shots?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, they, I think they fired shots within that moment.

MR WILLIAMS: What happened after that? The night when you attacked the police vehicle, were you at that stage aware whether anyone was injured or killed?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: On that night we were not aware that anyone was killed until we buy the paper. I buy the paper the following day and find that there was slightly injured, some police were injured.

MR WILLIAMS: And you accept that the person that was injured is Mr Ndimphiwe Nthekiso, a policeman?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Well, I was told at court that his name, but I didn't know who was in the van that time, because we were waiting for any vehicle of the patrolling, either the soldiers or the police.  We were just waiting for the situation.

MR WILLIAMS: This person, Mr Ndimphiwe Nthekiso, did you know  him personally?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No, I don't know.

MR WILLIAMS: Was the attack directed at him in his personal capacity or at police in general?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: I will say on police in general, because you can't know at night who is in the van on that time, on that "dinges".

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Ndlumbini, I will now go to the second incident in respect of which you are seeking amnesty and that is the attack relating to Mr Eric Xegetwane.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you just tell the Committee how it came about that you decided to attack his house?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Well, after we - I don't still remember. I think it was after the week, you see, we attack this police van and then it happened that we attend our youth meeting now, because I am also a member of the New Crossroads youth organisation. I am a member of the branch there, the ANC branch.  So when we were attending, when we were in the meeting, well, some comrades call me that comrade was close to me, that time Chris Hani was briefing me, with him, about this action we must take, it was Comrade Xhoxho. So he call me and I explain about this house of Xegetwane.  I was already hear that there is a person who is Xegetwane who is involved in this perpetrating of taxi wars and all this things, you see.  He was one of the top people.  So he explained to me that the unit is taken a decision that today we must alarm Xegetwane that he must move out of New Crossroads.  Well, how we must attack the house so that they can, our aim was to shoo them, that they must move, because they are not needed in the community.  That is how we went there, ourselves and attack the house of Mr Xegetwane.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it correct that this attack took place on the 27th of October 1991?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, if I still remember, I can't remember all the dates of this.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Ms Ndlumbini, when you say that Comrade Xhoxho advised you that the unit had taken a decision, to attack Mr Xegetwane in order to scare him to leave his house, what unit are you referring to?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: What?

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your evidence you say that Comrade Xhoxho told you that a unit had taken a decision to attack the house of Xegetwane in order to scare him out of his house.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What unit is this that you are referring to?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: What ...?

SISI KHAMPEPE: The unit.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: The unit?  Oh.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I heard you speaking of a unit.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Oh, I am talking about the people who are working with them, you see.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is this a self-defence unit?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are referring to the ANC Youth League?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No, we are just in the meeting there, in the ANC Youth League, but now we are talking about my unit is also the members of the Youth League, you see.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So  Comrade Xhoxho was one of the members of your unit?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And this decision had been taken in your absence?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: By your unit?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you the leader of the unit?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No, I was not the leader of the unit. The leader of the unit was Comrade Xhoxho.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank  you.

MR WILLIAMS: How many people were part of this attack on Mr Xegetwane's house?