Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

TIMOTHY SMITH: Lastly I would like to extend an invitation to the Commission that it's not easy for us to explain in detail what happened during that time.  I would like to invite you to come to the upper part of the valley to see what the place looks like.  You should go past Eden and to the upper valley, KwaMnyandu, KwaShange, Gezabuso.  Even today you can see the aftermath of the violence that took place in 1990.  The houses, the shops were burnt down.  The schools were also burnt down.  You will also see the place where a number of people were staying, and they are no longer there at this present moment.  Now I am saying these people might probably be here today.  I want these people to say what the Commission can do for them.

TIMOTHY SMITH: Father Smith, thank you very much for that very vivid and moving and articulate account of the period known as the Seven Day War, as well as the build-up to that period.  If what you say is true then it is a terrible indictment on the South African Police, as well as on Mr David Ntombela and other senior figures in the IFP.  I am going to ask briefly if my colleagues would like to ask you any questions, if you'd be happy to answer those.

TIMOTHY SMITH: /I greet

TIMOTHY SMITH:  I greet you, Father.  I just want to ask one question.  Just at your conclusion you pointed out that you were not able to obtain some justice.  You tried the police to no avail.  You also tried some attorneys, but they could not help you.  You also tried the press.  This troubles me insofar as the press as well as the attorneys are concerned.  How did these attempts fail?  I can see the police matter.  I did ... (inaudible) ... but what perturbs me is whether there are attorneys who were not able to co-operate with you, as well as the press.  Could you please give us a brief explanation as to how you approached them and what was the outcome, and if you could please tell us the name of the Deputy Attorney-General that you approached it will help us to get the name so that we can investigate the matter further.

WITNESS:   I don't know whether I can get you.  Are you asking as to how we failed to get the press to co-operate with us, as well as the attorneys?

TIMOTHY SMITH:  (Inaudible) ... who were colluding with the whole system, and we need to know if there were such lawyers they got, or if there was a press which was also colluding with the system.  It does help us so that if indictments have to be made these people too have to be indicted.  Thank you.

WITNESS:   Perhaps to start with the press.   We tried - I tried to write an account of everything that happened, and some of that I sent to the press in order to have it published.  The only newspaper that would publish the complete story that I have given you now was the Zulu newspaper, UmAfrica.  The Natal Witness refused to publish it.  Various other newspapers refused to publish that story, but UmAfrica published that story in Zulu, and a  large number of people replied to that article expressing

TIMOTHY SMITH: their opinion, some of them for, some against, but a large number of them who had been there in the Seven Day War, and were able to connect with events that I described.  As far as the question of lawyers is concerned, we tried to hire lawyers in order to - oh, sorry.

INTERPRETER: You said The Natal Witness as well as other newspapers refused to publish the story about what happened in those areas, and you said UmAfrica published the story.  Now, you can continue from there.

WITNESS:   With regard to the attorneys, we approached some attorneys to assist us with regard to these cases, but I must point out that it was difficult for the attorneys, especially those who were in the 'Maritzburg areas, because this was happening at Elandskop.  Secondly it was a time of the state of emergency, and many of the things - or what we can do today we could not do during that time.  The attorneys were not supposed to go into these areas and take statements from the victims, and the police had so much authority to act illegally.  I do not blame the attorneys, I think they tried their level best, but under the circumstances it was difficult.

INTERPRETER:  I have got two questions.  I want you to clarify this issue.  Firstly you said David Ntombela was accompanied by a certain number of men.  Do you perhaps know these men, these Inkatha members who always accompanied him to these attacks?

WITNESS:   I think you are speaking with regard to the 1987 incident.

INTERPRETER:  That is correct.

WITNESS:   When Mrs Mkhize was killed.  The names of the people appear in the inquest report.   They are common knowledge.  The other one was Zondi,

INTERPRETER: Ntombela, and the rest appear in the list of the inquest.

INTERPRETER:  My second question.  Presently David Ntombela is occupying certain high positions in the Government, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That is quite correct.

INTERPRETER:  We know that there was a time where the perpetrators were not supposed to be holding high positions.  We heard about McBride, as well as Dirk Coetzee.   According to your own opinion what are you saying about David Ntombela, because he was a perpetrator, he was involved in the violence?  How do you feel about him occupying a high position?

WITNESS:   That's why I am saying that the big question according to my own opinion is not a question of bringing together different political organisations and bring out peace and reconciliation.  The main question is for us to bring back the rule of law, that he who kills and he who steals, he who rapes, he who commits certain criminal acts should be arrested, be brought before the law and account for their deeds.  If that does not happen the people in Natal will not feel safe, they will not feel secure, because they know that the killers are still roaming the streets and they are still holding high positions.  According to my opinion it's that the law should take its course.  Presently we almost do not have the criminal justice system.  More than 14 000 people were killed in the Natal region, but those who had been convicted are less than 300.  It means we have absolutely no law in the Natal region.  That is why I am saying the law should take its course, the people should come forward and account for their past deeds.  If they want to be granted amnesty the Commission has the authority to do so,  /but if

INTERPRETER: but if they do not want to appear before the Commission the law should take its course, they should appear before the Courts and be convicted.

INTERPRETER:  Lastly it's with regard to your request that you wish that the Commission could visit the scene to see the aftermath of the violence.  We do understand the ... (incomplete) ... further you have mentioned that the Inkatha had a certain camp near a farm.  Which farm was this, and who were the leaders of that camp which was formed, and what was happening in that camp?

WITNESS:   It was a police camp.  The Riot Squad.  The Inkatha camps, according to my opinion, were not at the Elandskop area, but the police were staying at a certain farm which was quite close to us.  I don't know where the farm is, but I could find out more about the farm.

INTERPRETER:  What were they doing at this camp?  Were they being trained, or was it a base camp?