Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

ADV STEENKAMP: And furthermore, according to  Ms Montso, the mother of the deceased, the accused, I mean the deceased, never missed a day at school. He was a very committed and ... (indistinct) student. He went to school every day. He was never a member of any gang whatsoever.

JOHN SERAME GULU: He was a leader of the Eagles gang. He was always in the township and everybody in the community knew what he was doing. He was well-known in the township and they knew he works as a member of that gang. But they were never arrested.

ADV STEENKAMP: The only thing, apparently, which he belongs to was a local gospel group where he was one of the singers there. Do you, can you dispute this fact or do you know anything about this?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is true, he was a member of the gospel group in the township.

ADV STEENKAMP: You're saying he was a member of the gang. Do you know if he was politically active, was he a member of any other political organisation or structure, or was he only a member of the gang?

UNKNOWN: Mr Steenkamp, was evidence not given that he was also a member of the Youth League of the ANC?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I've just checked that, I'm sorry, I withdraw the question. My last question is, and this is, I'm putting it to you on behalf of the victims again. They're saying that the killing of the deceased was not politically motivated, he was never a member of any gang, and they would like to concur with the Supreme Court's judgement that this killing was a cold-blooded action by yourself for whatever reason it may be. There was no politically motivated action whatsoever to kill the deceased and he was never the member of any gang. Do you have, do you have any comment on that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: As a member of the community of Postmasburg, together with the deceased, we used to sing together at the Youth League of the ANC. He was also a member of the gospel choir. Thereafter, as a member of the ANC Youth League, he became the leader of the Eagles gangster. That's what I know about him.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions to the applicant. Thank you
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Steenkamp. Mr Gulu, up to what standard did you attend school?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Standard 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you, were you a marshal in the ANC or what was your position?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I was a marshal in the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you say that at one point, you and the deceased were members of the ANC Youth League. Did the deceased ... (intervention)

JOHN SERAME GULU: We used to sing together in the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the deceased sever his ties with the ANC Youth League at one point, or what happened?

JOHN SERAME GULU: He severed his ties with the ANC when he joined the Eagles gangster.

CHAIRPERSON: And after that, what was his attitude towards the ANC and the ANC Youth League?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I don't remember how he ... (indistinct) the ANC Youth League. I only became aware when he had already joined the Eagles gang, and then he came to me. He wanted to recruit me and then I refused.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, at that time, when he tried to recruit you as you say, what was his attitude, what was his relationship with the ANC Youth League at that time?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I knew him when he was a member of the ANC Youth League and one Saturday morning he came to me, he wanted to recruit me to be a member of the Eagles gang and I refused to join the gang.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he tell you? What was the Eagles all about?

JOHN SERAME GULU: They were drunk at the time when they came to me. They just showed their car, they had apples and bananas and they told me that they got those things from the Eagles, so they tried to persuade me to join them and then I refused to join them.

UNKNOWN: When, more or less, was this?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I do not remember the date, but I think it was around 1990, but it was when the President was released from prison, just after that. It was on a weekend, I was from work that time when they came to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you still recall on what day of the week did this incident happen where the deceased was killed?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JOHN SERAME GULU: It was on Saturday, the last Saturday of May 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: You were referred earlier to what was submitted to the Amnesty Committee by Mr Frans Morwaeng, Morwaeng, I am told,. on page 20 of the record. Now, under paragraph 2.2 in that document, there is a reference under the heading "Human Rights Lawyer" to the trial and how that was conducted. Have you got that in front of you?  I assume you're able to read English?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do see.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you, can you read the English?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please do that? Alright, have you read that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any comments on what Mr Morwaeng is saying there?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do understand what he has written here.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any comment on that? Do you agree or disagree or what?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I agree with what is written here.

UNKNOWN: Have you seen this statement before?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: When did you see it?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I hear about in Court and then I saw it again from my legal representative.

UNKNOWN: No, this statement was made after the Court case because it speaks about the Court case and what happened there, inter alia. When did you see this specific statement that appears on page 20?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I agree with you. I saw this statement this morning when I met my legal representative.

UNKNOWN: Did you read through the statement? Or did he just tell you about it, or ?

JOHN SERAME GULU: It is the first time that I read the statement now. I didn't ask him to give it to me so that I can read the first time, but I read it now.

UNKNOWN: But have you now read through the whole statement? Is that what you're telling us? Have you read every word now?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I did not read the whole statement, but I read only a portion from the statement.

UNKNOWN: Which portion do you agree with? Which is the portion that you have read that you agree with?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I have read 2.2. That is when our, the lawyer said it was we should not mention that this incident was politically motivated.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, thank you. Have you got any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair. Mr Gulu, I still have difficulty in understanding exactly what happened on that Saturday when this incident took place. I know I am asking you to repeat yourself, but please do so. Just exactly what happened, just say it again.

JOHN SERAME GULU: In that day in 1992, it was the end of the month and we were busy making arrangements for the funeral of my uncle. When we went to town to the mortuary we saw that we would be able to go and pay for the coffin.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I stop you there. Now, who were you with specifically at that point?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I was with my brother, that is Frans Morwaeng.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, and who else? Just the two of you?

JOHN SERAME GULU: And Isaac Gulu, as well. He is also my brother.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, let's just stop there. Both Isaac and Frans are your brothers?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct, they are my brothers.

ADV GCABASHE: And are they older than you are, or younger than you are?

JOHN SERAME GULU: They are older than myself. I am the youngest.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Please continue from that point. So you were at the mortuary trying to arrange for the funeral. After that, what happened?