Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Okay.  To come back to what you are saying, I think I will have to go into the long drawn affair of this whole thing.  When I was  - when Cebekhulu was arrested in Soweto, in other words when Col Dempsey had arrested him he was there and he was used as an interpreter and I said, "Oh so you remember Lethuli".  He said, "Ja he was my interpreter, he was arrested".  Then when I requested him about Thulani Dlamini and about the Asvat murder, he started giving me a story about how he was there and how he took these two people to the house and to the surgery of Dr Asvat.  Then I said where did you know these people from.  He said no he knew them.  I said let me put it to you the first time you saw these people was at the cells, and then he said oh yes that's right, that's the first time I saw them.  I said that was after you were arrested and after they were arrested for the murder. You were already in the cells when you saw them. Then he said oh look I don't want to talk about it, I'm tired and then he walked out of the room and Emma Nicholson said leave him now he's tired.  I said no he must talk to me and tell me if it's true or not true, and things like that.  And then I told Mrs Emma Nicholson, I said this thing that you are telling me, if he can verify those things for me in writing, I will be very pleased.  Give me a true version of what had happened.
 When I had this information and I sifted through all the information that he had told the media in Zambia, his two statements to the police before he went away to London and the statement that he gave me in London, there was a lot of contradiction.  I then made a note to NASCOM, that's the national commissioner relating the entire story and I was then aware that Emma Nicholson 1995 was writing this book and I told her, I said Mrs Nicholson, don't go by what this man is telling you, some of it that he's telling you is definitely untrue and I wrote that and I indicated that and even at the bottom of my letter I said to the National Commissioner that this man, we must investigate him to the fullest because this may become an embarrassment to the police.  If I can look at the notes then I can  give you the exact words that I wrote to the Commissioner.  Have you got it at hand here?

MP PIGOU: Is this the information note to the National Commissioner?  No I don't think so in terms of allegations or there is a letter from the South African High Commission but I think we don't need to have the exact words, I think the...(intervention)

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: What I'm saying is I indicated at that time already that there was a problem.

MP PIGOU: I understand that you have your problem with
Cebekhulu.  What I'm trying to understand is with all the other possible leads of information, why weren't these followed up?  Why were no further attempts made to locate people like Guybon Kubheka and so forth, why weren't attempts made?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I had no dealings with Guybon Kubheka.

MP PIGOU: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cillier is ...(intervention)

MR CILLIER: I would suggest Mr Chairperson that I would take my turn in the end if everybody finishes, otherwise it might result in me taking two opportunities.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes okay, Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Superintendent let me put certain propositions to you and ask for your comments.  In my mind Supt Dempsey, since the break of civilization mankind has wrestled with what type of process should best be used to establish the truth and this country ultimately resolved that we would use our judicial process in the format in which it stands as the best guarantee to come to the bottom of the truth. Is that statement fair Superintendent?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is correct, that is...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: And is structured in a way that the attorneys generals office is given certain autonomy, is that right?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is correct after a case had been handed they were...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: And the South African Police Force members gave him the exclusive powers of investigation, is that right?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Could I just finish replying to the first question.  A docket is handed over to the Attorney General who then decides thereafter whether he will prosecute.  Could you just restate you second question?

MR SEMENYA: Now the point I'm making is even before the Attorney General elects to prosecute or not to prosecute, as police officers it is within your province to obtain as much information about your investigation, is that right.

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is true.

MR SEMENYA: Now and your training as police officers is to make sure that you find information from primary sources because this hearsay evidence would not be admissible, is that right?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is what is not allowed on the report, everything that is submitted in court must be under oath.

MR SEMENYA: And Superintendent for that reason, the criminal justice system in this country is designed to make sure that witnesses can even testify in camera in the event they fear for their lives, is that right?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes that is true.

MR SEMENYA: And do they even have the competence to remove the court to a particular place where it will be safe for that evidence to be given in those circumstances, is that right?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: And the evidence is such that even witnesses refuse to give you statements you can subpoena them and take them to a court of law, isn't that right?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes in terms of Section 205.

MR SEMENYA: Now we have a justice system that tells me that if Mr Sono and Mr Shabalala would want to make damning evidence according to your information about Mrs Mandela, all this could have been done within the capabilities of our judicial system, is that right?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes that is possible.

MR SEMENYA: Now you give comments like, I was satisfied with the evidence would hold up in a court of law but it is not in your province Superintendent with respect to make such type of comments because your opinion as a police officer whether it will or it will not hold is irrelevant, isn't that correct?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I already stated to the Commission that my primary duty is to investigate the case to the best of my ability to note it down in writing and to hand it over to the Attorney General for decision.  But I also have some knowledge and experience coming over 38 years on which I can draw to form an opinion although not necessarily it would agree with Attorney General's decision.

MR SEMENYA: Yes we all can for our opinions but our judicial system tells me that certain opinions are inadmissible, including your own about whether or not any piece of evidence is true or not.

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is correct.  But we are not in a court now are we, we are sitting here in front of the Commission.

MR SEMENYA: This process is also a humble attempt at establishing  the truth.

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That may be so. I hope that we do arrive at the truth.

MR SEMENYA: Now you already told us that you never were under any political pressure.  I'm putting the question directly to you, were you under any pressure from Mrs Mandela to stop whatever your investigations were?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I repeat again my previous reply, nobody, but nobody exerted pressure on me, I have here the press statement of the Attorney General which I can make available to the Commission, I don't know whether you wish me to read it into the record in which it explicitly states that we have not been intimidated and we would not tolerate any tampering with evidence.  It will take a bit of time Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: How long is it?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: It consists of two and a half pages Mr Chair.