Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

JUDGE MGOEPE: I assume that the reason why he was beaten was that he did not give you the kind of information that you people wanted?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.  He didn't want to point out the homes and houses in Mamelodi, so I don't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And it must have been clear wasn't it, at some stage that if despite such a severe assault, he was not bringing out any information then probably he didn't have any information and there was no need to keep him alive anyway?

UNKNOWN: According to our information he really did have this necessary information about terrorists, otherwise we wouldn't have beaten him.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But after a severe assault it become clear that this person possessed no information, otherwise with this kind of assault and torture he would have given the information, he would have disclosed it?

UNKNOWN: If he remained alive he might have given it
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JUDGE MGOEPE	17	BRIG CRONJE
to us but they carried on with the strangling and the throttling for too long and that's why he died.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now you say that this landmine that was in the vehicle was not being carried around for the purpose that was used that night?

UNKNOWN: That's correct Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: For what purpose was it carried around?

UNKNOWN: I said that members of staff always or constantly had this type of weapon, weapons, including limpet mines in their possession, with my full knowledge, but that was not the purpose that evening to use the limpet mine.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes you say so, you told us that they used to carry it around, but what I want to know from you is the purpose for which it was carried around?

UNKNOWN: It could be that for instance when they had a case such as this or where they have an activist, find an activist's house, then they would use this landmine.

JUDGE WILSON: So it was carried to use against either people like this or activists?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were you surprised to see it in the vehicle that night?

UNKNOWN: Not at all, I knew that they were carrying around this type of thing.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were you surprised that it was used to blow up the body of this person to pieces?

UNKNOWN: No, after he died I gave instructions for him to be blown up.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you told them to use this particular landmine to blow his body to pieces.
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ADV DU PLESSIS	18	BRIG CRONJE

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure again, the translation says landmine but it's a limpet mine, there's a big difference between them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: A limpet mine, I think it was my fault, I think I spoke of a landmine.

ADV DU PLESSIS: A landmine ja, but the interpretation was also a landmine and as you know a limpet mine is a lot different from landmine.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well what you said was that you were not surprised that it was used for that purpose.

UNKNOWN: No.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Had it been used for that purpose before?

UNKNOWN: There were such cases, yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: When you got into the vehicle, you were aware that this was, is it a limpet mine, I don't know the difference, were you aware that it was there in the vehicle?

UNKNOWN: No not at that stage.

SISI KHAMPEPE: From whom was this information obtained that the activist concerned knew about the presence of terrorists around Mamelodi? From whom had you obtained that information?

UNKNOWN: That would have been from informers.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how reliable was this information obtained from the informers?

UNKNOWN: During questioning at the office he admitted that he was aware of such houses and that he would point out such houses.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you started questioning the activist concerned in your office?

UNKNOWN: Yes they first questioned him there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what did this questioning entail the use
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MS KHAMPEPE	19	BRIG CRONJE
of force on him at that time?

UNKNOWN: He wasn't assaulted in the offices, we wouldn't have done it there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So he merely volunteered information without any force ever being used by your members?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it therefore not strange, that when he had to point out the houses concerned he was unable to do so?

UNKNOWN: I was surprised, I didn't question him myself but the information which my people gave me, du Plessis, was that he was able to point out these houses.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now when du Plessis and the other member of your staff throttled this guy, where were you?

UNKNOWN: I was in front next to the driver of the vehicle, that's where I was sitting.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you witness the throttling?

UNKNOWN: Some of it yes, but not the whole interrogation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were in a position to stop them from doing that as a senior officer.

UNKNOWN: I was in a position but I didn't do so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: I have some difficulties, when you say that there was no intention to kill this man. Is that what you said?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

HASSAN MALL: If that was so then this man was being tortured to a point when despite the torture, he was not giving any information.  Is that so?

UNKNOWN: Correct.
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JUDGE MALL	20	BRIG CRONJE

HASSAN MALL: There was a possibility, therefore, that he couldn't be therefore that he couldn't have given you any information because he didn't have any, that was a possibility?

UNKNOWN: No I don't think so because at the offices he did give the information, so I don't know whether he couldn't point out the houses or whether he didn't know where the houses were.

HASSAN MALL: Any person in his position, questioned and tortured as he was would reach a stage when he cannot bear the pain and would then give the information that is expected of him, don't you expect that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: My next question is that even if he did give you that information after that torture, it would never have been possible for you to release him. So he would have had to be killed in any case after you had got the information.  Isn't that so?

UNKNOWN: No Chairperson, the injuries which he sustained, these injuries were caused by hand but it was the throttling that killed him, but his external injuries were not serious.

HASSAN MALL: Yes but if he was released he would have revealed all this torture that he had been submitted to?

UNKNOWN: Yes he could but we would just have denied it because there were more of us than him, he was alone.  We would have denied it.

HASSAN MALL: So was it your decision ultimately that he should be blown up?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: You were asked by Judge Mgoepe a few minutes
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JUDGE WILSON	21	BRIG CRONJE
ago and you said that you saw that the deceased was seriously beaten with obvious injuries and you did not stop it.  You are now trying to tell us his external injuries were not serious.

UNKNOWN: No what I said was that the injuries were not that serious.

JUDGE WILSON: He was seriously beaten with obvious injuries is what you said.

UNKNOWN: I assume that he had injuries but they were not that serious.

JUDGE WILSON: You saw them surely, you didn't assume, you gave evidence that he had obvious injuries, that means you saw the injuries, or do you want to change your story?

UNKNOWN: No I saw the injuries.

JUDGE WILSON: Sitting in the dark in this vehicle?

UNKNOWN: At one point we did actually get out of the vehicle where we were interrogating him.

JUDGE WILSON: And assault him outside, you haven't told us a word about this.

UNKNOWN: No they were still inside the vehicle.

JUDGE WILSON: But what do you mean you got out of the vehicle?

UNKNOWN: We stopped and I got out and the others also got out.

JUDGE WILSON: And you left them torturing him?

UNKNOWN: I left them there, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You may not have seen the torture you must have heard it, didn't you?