Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and he was about 25 paces away from you when you fired the shots as you had indicated to us, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, it was from here to the flag.

CHAIRPERSON: So for you to get back to the car if I understand you correctly, he was between where you were, he was lying between the point where you were and where the car was.  Is that right?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I don't understand the question, can you repeat it.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that the deceased was running in your direction when you shot him.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So when he fell he must have been somewhere between the point where you were and where the car was, because we must assume he was running from the car, that's where you left him standing.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He was not in the middle, what happened there is he was coming towards me but he was on the sides and I was on the other side.  I was on the edge of the other side and he was coming towards my direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now if you had left where you were standing and you now move towards the car, mustn't you move roughly past the point where the deceased was now lying?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I was not passing that place, that spot.

CHAIRPERSON: Then explain to us, where was the deceased lying after you had shot him.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: As he was coming towards that direction, when I shot at him he fell down on the side and I was on the other side and then I went on the other direction to the car, I did not go towards his direction.  He was going to pass my direction, so when I hit him I went back to the car using the direction that I'd used when I was going to that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Look if you hadn't shot him, if you just left him to run as he was running, would he have run past you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, he would have passed me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now if I understand that situation correctly, then the deceased must have fallen somewhere on your way back to the car.  Or am I misunderstanding what you are explaining?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: What happened is we left this car and I took another direction towards the car and he was coming towards me, towards my direction and I was on the other side, he was on the other side.  There was nothing - I wouldn't pass him when I was going to the car, I would have gone back to the car using the direction that I used.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, Mr Mnqandi.

MR MNQANDI: Thank you ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry to interrupt.  Mr Chairman, may I make a suggestion, can he probably try and explain if this was the car, this was himself and this was the deceased?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR MNQANDI: Mr Gumengu, wasn't it a coincidence to you that the fact that a person you had gone for the purpose of killing, would run directly towards you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, because I knew that maybe he didn't see which direction I was, because I went on the other side, I did not remain where the car had stopped, so he was not aware of which direction I was.

MR MNQANDI: Why if you were seeing him, was he unable to see you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It is because when I left him there standing in the car, I am sure that maybe he didn't see which direction I am heading towards.  Secondly, the reason why I noticed him is because I heard his footsteps and he didn't hear anything, so after hearing the footsteps I could see which direction he was taking.  That is why he could not see me.

MR MNQANDI: When you got back to your colleagues in the vehicle, did you explain to them why you shot the deceased?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I didn't explain to him and they didn't ask whether he is dead or what was happening, I just said that we must go, the job has been finished.  They didn't ask anything.  And I think that that was because we were from different units, they were aware that we were from different units.

MR MNQANDI: Were any criminal charges laid against you for this incident?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, there were criminal charges that were laid in 1988.

MR MNQANDI: That is after the second incident.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: And were there any investigations taking place according to your knowledge, between the first incident and the second incident?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: There was an investigation after the second incident.  After the first one a docket was opened but I don't know who was investigating, I don't know what was happening, but after the second incident there was an investigation.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Mnqandi, when you say after the incident a docket was opened, was that docket opened against you or was it opened against Mr Zokwe?  Was the docket to arrest Mr Zokwe or was the docket to investigate the shooting of him?  What was the investigation after the first incident?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: A docket was opened that he was found being injured and Mr Zokwe was arrested by the Security Police of Umtata, but there were no charges laid against him because he was released after some time.  But when was in hospital - when he was found there, taken to hospital, he was then arrested by the police here in Umtata, and on the other side a docket that he was injured was opened.

MR MNQANDI: In fact I want to put it to you that when he was in hospital he did lay a charge against you and you are aware of that.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I'm not aware of that.

MR MNQANDI: When did you first become aware that there was a case pending as a result of the first incident?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I found that out from the newspapers that there was a case and there was a docket that was opened because he was found there injured.  I think it was that same week that I read that from the newspapers.

MR MNQANDI: Did you try to establish what statement he had made to the police about the incident?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I didn't try to find out what was happening because I knew that if there was anything involving my name, Capt Mfazwe was there, the one who instructed me.  He was going to be the one who would give me details about the process or about what was happening.  I knew that he would tell me everything, but he didn't tell me that there was any threat or anything else, I continued with my job.

MR MNQANDI: Are you aware of any statement that the deceased made concerning this incident?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No.

MR MNQANDI: I want to put to you that the deceased made a statement to the fact that when you reached the quarry he was led by three policemen, two in front, one at the back, to dongas which were in the area where he was attempted to be killed.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, if he had put it that way, that was not what happened or maybe the statement was not taken properly.  Maybe he was saying that three police took him to that vicinity where he was, where this attempted murder continued, not that he was led to that place, but he went there with three police.  That is the truth, but not that he was lying down and he was shot lying down, it is not like that.  Maybe there was a mistake somewhere.  Because if he was lying down he would have died, we would have made sure that he was dead because three policemen would have made sure that he was dead.

MR MNQANDI: In fact he says that he was running away and he fell down and that's the time he was shot.

MR MNQANDI: Yes, he was running away and then he fell down because of the bullet, that's all.

MR MNQANDI: When you discovered that the deceased had not died from this first incident, how did you feel?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That surprised me that he didn't die in that first incident and then Capt Mfazwe said that we were working and nothing would be charged for that.

MR MNQANDI: The fact that you heard, or you read a statement in the press that there were charges pending, did it not surprise you?