Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Yes, you have already said that, I agree,you said that.  What I am trying to say is that when he rushedyou with a knife and he missed you, he failed to stab you.  Butwhen you shot him in the back you exceeded the bounds of self-defence. That is why you are saying to this Commission you are wrong.

JUDGE WILSON: He is not saying that to this Commission. That is what you want him to say.  He is saying to this Commissionthat he was acting in self-defence.

UNKNOWN: I concede that, Mr Chairman.  When he missedyou with the knife, he passed and then thereafter you shot him. So at the time when you shot him, he was not about to stab you,at the moment when the bullet entered his body, is that not so?

UNKNOWN: It is true, he was facing the other direction. Can I be given a chance to explain this that I want to emphasise?

UNKNOWN: Yes, okay, but don't be long please.  Becauseyou see, I am concentrating on the moment when the shots werefired, not other moments.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry Mr Thulu, why did you shot Masuso,why did you shoot him?

UNKNOWN: I was scared, because when he came back hewould kill me.

UNKNOWN: The 3 million gang, do you know whetherthey had any relationship with the IFP, the political party?

UNKNOWN: Yes.   I know they had a relationship withthe IFP.

UNKNOWN: How do you know this?

UNKNOWN: They used to raise their flag when they wereburying their members.

UNKNOWN: You were also asked whether there are anypolitical organisations operative in Kroonstad then.  You mentionedAzapo and the PAC.  I'd like to find out whether you know whatpolitical affiliation Masuso was besides being a member of the3 million gang.

UNKNOWN: I don't know whether he belonged to any politicalorganisation, sir.

UNKNOWN: I didn't hear that response, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: I didn't know Masusu as any member of anypolitical organisation.

UNKNOWN: You were also asked about the force or coercionthat was exercised on certain individuals to join the 3 milliongang, you remember that?  Do you know of a person called Tsolo(?),a young man who was a member of the
3 million gang and who defected?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Were you able to talk with this young man?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: With your talk with this young man, whatdid he say how or what caused him to join the 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: He said he was intimidated.  They said theywould kill him if he doesn't join.

UNKNOWN: You also mentioned that the police usedto follow the 3 million gang around.  I want to find out fromyou, as far as you know, do you know that the police could dosomething to stop the 3 million gang from either, I mean stopthe 3 million gang when they see them committing crime?

UNKNOWN: Can you repeat your question?

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether the police would goout of their way  to stop the 3 million gang members when theycommit crime?  I see that you are just shaking your head.  Canyou just respond for the purpose of the record?

UNKNOWN: Can you repeat the question, Sir?

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether the police acted againstthe 3 million gang to stop them from committing crime wheneverthey saw them?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any information relating towho, which instance supplied or supported the 3 million gang withmoney for food to eat and shelter?

UNKNOWN: The money that they got was the money fromthe prosecutor and there were rumours that they were given moneyby the police, but the one that I want to testify upon is theone that I saw being given by the prosecutor ...

UNKNOWN: Do you know a brother of George Ramasimongwho was working for Mr Caswell Qweqwe?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you give us information on that?

UNKNOWN: He was working with the Council that was ledby Mr Qweqwe and as time went on he is the person who was a gobetween, between Mr Qweqwe and the gang.

UNKNOWN: Where was this person a prosecutor?

UNKNOWN: Pardon?

UNKNOWN: Where was this person a prosecutor?

UNKNOWN: In Court B.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In Maokeng Township or in town?

UNKNOWN: In town.

UNKNOWN: You indicated in answering questions fromJudge Mgoepe that you could not continue to do door-to-door asa result of the intimidation from or the activities of the 3 milliongang, am I correct?  Do you remember that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You were also asked when you formed thesedefence units, as a result of which ultimately - of the operationsof which you ultimately killed Masuso, did you what you wantedto bring about.  Do you remember that question?  What did youwant to bring about with involving yourself in these activities? Do you remember that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I remember that.

UNKNOWN: My question to you is, during that periodwould you say that there was free political activity in the neighbourhoodof Maokeng?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: Now what was your intention in committing
yourself to the defence units and ultimately finding yourselfhaving to kill Masuso?

UNKNOWN: Peace, stability and freedom of politicalactivity.

UNKNOWN: Would you say that the community was intimidatedfrom participating freely in politics?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you remember or do you know of incidentswhere the 3 million gang hijacked transport from ordinary membersof the public, especially taxi owners?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How frequently was this done?

MR TULU: Pardon?

<UNKNOWN>: How frequently, how often?

UNKNOWN: This happened many a time, Sir, I can't evencount.

UNKNOWN: Advocate Mpshe also asked you about negotiationsthat you would have undertaken to bring about peace.  Immediatelyafter the incident that you spoke about when the conflict startedwith George Ramasimong arising out of the allegations relatingto one George Daniel, you remember that part of his cross-examinationby Advocate Mpshe.  I am bringing you back to that.  That incident,I'd like you to give the Commission a little bit more informationregarding what happened on that occasion.
If you don't understand to what I am referring to you must askme.

UNKNOWN: Can you please explain, Sir?

UNKNOWN: Yes, you can continue.

JUDGE MGOEPE: He wants you to explain.

UNKNOWN: If you can just raise your voice.  I am sorry,I didn't hear that.  I am referring you to an incident
which took place, if you remember you were asked what you didto try and negotiate and bring about peace.  Do you know of anincident that took place after George Ramasimong now moved frombeing a member of the African National Congress Youth League andimmediately started these 3 million activities.  Initiatives whichwere taken by the Youth League, I think Rev Gosongo(?), SenatorDennis Bloem, to bring about or to stop the conflict that wasbeginning to set in.   Do you know about this incident?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I know.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell the Commission what happenedat that incident?

UNKNOWN: It was decided that we had to meet the 3
million gang to sit down and negotiate and solve this.  It istrue they were called to Mr Gosongo's church together with otherministers.

UNKNOWN: Before you go on, were you there personally?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  They were all called and we sat at MrGosongo's church and we tried to look into matters as how to solveissues.  The thing that was emphasised there is the one I referredto yesterday that we didn't want the situation to reach the pointit reached.  If Duvidi felt that his girlfriend was being interferedwith, we would solve that, but they ended up saying we realisethat you, the ANC, you are with George, Dennis George was attackedthereafter by the 3 million gang together with his family.

UNKNOWN: Thus nothing turned out of those peace initiatives.

UNKNOWN: No.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATSEPE