Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR HUGO: Mr Rosslee, you were only at Vlakplaas for approximately a year, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I think it was just short of a year.

MR HUGO: And would you say that you became au fait with the rules and the regulations and the structures that were in place pertaining to the reporting back and the receiving of requests of various divisions all over the country, to Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would say I had a general working knowledge of it, yes.

MR HUGO: Now, let's just get it clear, as far as Mr De Kock's knowledge is pertaining to this particular incident, is concerned.  Is it your evidence that Mr De Kock didn't know about this incident, as far as you can recall?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection when I made the statement Mr Chairman, was that we had been tasked to come down to Port Natal, by Mr De Kock.  In the light of the other evidence that Mr De Kock was on leave, I would have to concede that that was the point, he in fact didn't know about that.

MR HUGO: Yes, Mr De Kock says that he didn't give the instructions for the group to travel down to Durban and he confirms in fact, that he was on leave.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Sure.

MR HUGO: Is it also true then that when you received the instruction from Major Taylor, I think as he was at the time, that you didn't, you personally didn't liaise with Mr De Kock whether he was on leave or not, to get his approval?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And is it also then your evidence that you did not report to Mr De Kock after the incident?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And I think you must have heard yesterday when I put it to Mr McCarter that this particular operation, was carried out without the knowledge of Mr De Kock and he wasn't even notified of this operation after it had been finalised and carried out?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: In the light of the evidence that has been led, I would accept that.

MR HUGO: Now, as far as the reporting structures are concerned, let me just put it to you that your perception of how that were used, is not correct.  Mr De Kock says and we have had various other amnesty applications that dealt with this particular issue, that the arrangement was that whenever a Unit for instance from Cape Town or Durban, needed the services of the askaris or a Vlakplaas contingent, that they would not contact Mr De Kock directly, but that Mr De Kock's Section Head at that particular point in time, I think his rank at the time was Brigadier Schoon, would then be contacted and be told that the services of Vlakplaas are needed.  He would then in turn liaise with Mr De Kock and Mr De Kock would then arrange for Vlakplaas members to be sent down to wherever.
	Have you been aware of that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what did you say, yes?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No?

MR HUGO: And the arrangement was further that whenever something cropped up whilst members of Vlakplaas were under the command of say for instance Mr Taylor, that Mr Taylor would take a decision here, locally, in conjunction with his Officer Commanding and that his Officer Commanding would most probably liaise with Brigadier Schoon, and they would then approve the operation.
	Were you ever told by Mr Taylor that he had tried to contact Mr De Kock prior to the occurrence?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Not to my recollection, no Mr Chairman, no.

MR HUGO: Then there is just one other aspect, we have been able to contact Mr De Kock, we had some logistical difficulty in getting instructions from him, but he says pertaining to the weapons, that he wasn't aware of the fact that you had them and you never told him about the fact that they were used in an operation or that they were in your possession?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Like I said earlier, I wasn't aware if he knew or didn't know about the existence of the weapons, and I personally didn't report back to him about the use of those weapons.

MR HUGO: And, just finally, when Mr De Kock says that he had only been informed about this incident by the Attorney General approximately a year ago, would that accord with your experience and your knowledge in the sense that you didn't tell him about this?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Definitely.  As I said, I didn't give him any feedback on the operation.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Rosslee, most of what I wanted to cover with you, has been covered by the avid questioning of the members of the Commission, but I would like to pose a few questions to you.
	Coming to what I can call your political indoctrination, you say that you believed that every black person, was a potential MK member, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And all MK members, according to you, were terrorists, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: MK members, yes.

MR NGUBANE: So your belief was that every black man was a potential terrorist?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Potentially yes, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Old women, young women and black children, were all potential terrorists?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: You said just now any black man, potential terrorists, I would say within what would be regarded as the right ages, yes.  Not all women, all children.

MR NGUBANE: Would you regard that as a political belief or racism, simple racism?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would say based on what was occurring then, it was a political belief Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Coming to Captain Holmes, you say he pressured you to make a statement, is that your evidence?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: And the only way he pressured you was to put in front of you, the statement of Mr Bosch and then ask you questions and write them down, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, that is not correct Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: What other pressure did he exert on you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Pressure of being arrested and incarcerated for the murder of Mr Bhila if I didn't cooperate with him.

MR NGUBANE: And in the same breath, he told you that if you made a statement, you would turn a State witness?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did that relieve you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It was my only way out at that stage Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Pardon?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It was my only way out of the predicament at that stage.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, that promise that you would be made a State witness, did it relieve you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, like I said, it was my only way out at that stage.

MR NGUBANE: And that promise was made before a statement could be taken to you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: So when you wrote the statement, you were relieved, you were no longer pressured?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't think the stress goes away Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: And in Mr Bosch's statement, did you read anything where Mr Bosch said that he could point out the place where the body of Bhila was?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, as I said, I don't recall and I don't think that I read Mr Bosch's statement, that it was shown to me.

MR NGUBANE: Were you ever asked, or was it ever put to you that Mr Bosch had indicated that he could point out the body?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Not to my recollection Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: But in your statement, you say that you could - you thought at that time, that you could point out where the body was, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Sorry Mr Chairman, could I just get a reference, a page number?

MR NGUBANE: It is page 7, paragraph 2.  You said possibly you could point out the place.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct, I did say that in my statement, and I went with the Attorney General's Investigators to the South Coast in an attempt to do that.