Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: The question relates to how many times did you testify in that criminal trial, was it once or twice?    How many times did you go to the, how many times did you take the oath?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Once, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was when you disputed the confession?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, it is that time exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can reasonably deduct that that is the only time, he didn't testify in the defence.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Gushu, I put it to you that nowhere in your evidence at the criminal court, in the criminal trial, did you say anything about instructions from MK or Mr Mkhwanazi or Mr Mabena, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Chair, I would like you to know that the time I was arrested, I was arrested as a criminal, not as a politician.   Even if I would have divulged such information, it would not have helped, because I was arrested as a criminal.

MR HATTINGH: Can I then anticipate your answer to my next question, the reason why you didn't tell anything about your instructions from MK command to commit those crimes were because you were considered as a criminal and you didn't think it would change anything, is that the position?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: If it was so, or if they knew that I was a person, if they knew that I was in politics, they would not have treated me in such a manner.

MR HATTINGH: Then why did you not tell them that you were involved in politics and save yourself a lot of torture?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Chair, as I said, the police beat me up and took me to my house, they had evidence that I was in politics, because they saw my membership cards.   It's not like here, where I could say everything.   They had my ANC and Communist Party membership cards.   It was clear that I was a member of the ANC and the Communist Party.

MR HATTINGH: Then I don't understand your previous answer.  You said that if you had to inform them that you were involved in politics, you would have been treated better, or you wouldn't have been treated like you were being treated?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: When I say that, Mr Chair, I mean that if the law ruling the country at that time was like now, I would have been treated better, but because we lived under terrible conditions at that time, my life was in danger and would have been more in danger if I had confessed and divulged more, that I was a member of the ANC.   They had my membership cards that I was a member of these particular organisations.

CHAIRPERSON: In the trial, did you have an opportunity to tell the judge yourself that these crimes were committed for political reasons?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, Mr Chair, in the trial we were disputing the confession statement.   As I have said, I was sentenced because of this confession statement and because of what the police said, the judge used that as evidence, I was not able to talk and give my own viewpoint in the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: In any case, you pleaded not guilty that time, correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is so, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, he could hardly be expected to then, during the trial, having pleaded not guilty, to say, "Yes, I did it, because of political reasons", could he, given the fact that he pleaded not guilty?

MR HATTINGH: Yes, I accept that.   If we can then just go back, why did you not tell the magistrate, at the time of the confession that you acted under instructions on behalf of MK and the ANC to commit those crimes?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I don't know how else to answer, Mr Chairperson, I have tried to say that I was taken to a female boer, and there was another black female who was to interpret for me, there was no magistrate with a gown formally so that I could speak.   I was denying everything in court.

MR HATTINGH: How did you know what to tell the magistrate?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Chair, I was denying everything in court.   I was not taken to a magistrate formally, I was just taken to a small room, there was not even a single person to listen where I could say that yes, where I could say, "Yes, I did make this confession and I volunteered to make this confession".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now did the magistrate write down what you told her to write?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, everything, because ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Now, why, how did you know what to tell her?  Is it what you were told to tell her or what came out of your own head?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I've said, Chair, everything I said, the police said I must say, because they said they already had  information.  I said everything I said because I was told by the police to say it.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Gushu, Mr Javu Mkhwanazi and Mr Mabena, J J Mabena, did they, they were the people who introduced you and gave you the instructions to commit those incidents?

MR BLACK: That is not the evidence before the Committee, Mr Chairman.    The evidence was that there was a Committee of four people in Ermelo, as testified to by Mr Mndebele, one of them communicated the order.

MR HATTINGH: That is correct, and that person is Mr Javu Mkhwanazi.   As it pleases the Committee.   That would be applicant No 4.   Thank you.   You were introduced to Mr J J Mabena, you became involved with the actions of MK in this area, and you received your instructions from Mr Javu Mkhwanazi to kill people and commit certain deeds, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did they support you at your criminal trial, did they come forward in your support?

MR BLACK: What is the relevance of this questioning?   I object to the fact on the basis of relevance.

CHAIRPERSON: What's the relevance of how his criminal trial was conducted, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps I should rephrase the question.   Did the two mentioned people at any stage, from the time that you were arrested until the time that you made application for amnesty, assist you in any manner and support you, because they were the person that caused all the problems for you?

MR BLACK: Objection remains on the grounds of relevance, Mr Chair.

MR HATTINGH: What's the purpose, maybe you can explain to us what the purpose is and then we can cope?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I think it would be a reasonable deduction to be made that had he in fact received those instructions, if that were in fact the truth, then the people who gave him those instructions would to some extent support him in, when he has got to live with the problems flowing from those instructions that he executed.   It goes once again to the question of whether the political motive, instructions, were, if they are fabrications after the event or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, Mr Mndebele was one of those people, isn't it, who was in that meeting, correct?   Was it put to him that that meeting never ever took place and no such decision was taken, and that's a fabrication?   I don't recall it being put to him that that was a fabrication.   Maybe I missed it.

MR HATTINGH: No, I believe I did not put it to Mr Mndebele, yes, but if I might just add to that, subsequent to Mr Mndebele's evidence a substantial amount of documentation was made available to us, which placed very many things in a different perspective, documents made available to us by the evidence leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, if it were put to you that this whole business and whole version of you acting as a soldier under political decisions and instructions is false, and it's a story you made up after you were arrested, what would you say to that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would dispute that, Mr Chair, because I did not do anything voluntarily, or ...(intervention).

INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, the speaker said that he did everything because of his political beliefs and because he was obeying instructions from his commander.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was the person that gave you the actual instruction on behalf of whoever?