Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: I said lastly and I was incorrect., I should have turned the page Mr Chairman, I'm sorry.
    You were also implicated by Mr Motsamai in an attack or a petrol bomb attack on a house belonging to Nicos. Is that true?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is a lie. I did not take part in that attack.

MR VISSER: And Mr Motsamai - I'm sorry, I should perhaps give you the references Mr Chairman, instead of keeping it to myself, it's page 146 of bundle A, paragraph four and that is Mr Motsamai.
	And at page 147 of the same bundle, paragraph 10, it is alleged that you participated in the petrol bomb attack on the house of a teacher called Bolosha - B-o-l-s-h-a.

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I don't know that person, I don't even know his house. I did not take part in that incident.

MR VISSER: Just in case, there are two further incidents, the one we have already spoken about, the arrest of Oupa Makubalo, but then there was also a petrol bomb attack - that's item twelve, Mr Chairman at page 148.
	A petrol bomb attack on the parish house in Botshabelo, did you have anything to do with that if that happened?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No, I did not take part in that incident.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I just cannot recall whther its this witness or the previous witness that I've asked about Oupa Makubalo.  My attorney seems to think I did ask this witness about him but I really cannot recall, I'm sorry.  Well, let me just ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON
"...[inaudible] was not present when Oupa was arrested, I went to Smithfield I later heard he was arrested in relation to Motsamai informer's murder"

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to you.  Those are my questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Did Mr Ngo at a certain stage leave Bloemfontein? According to your knowledge, was he transferred or did he move out of Bloemfontein?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I knew only after he has left that he went to Hammanskraal Police Training College, then I learnt that he was somewhere in Mamelodi.

MR DU PLESSIS: Okay, after he had moved out of Bloemfontein, did you see him again?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Yes, I saw him when he was in Supreme Court about the murder of Mr Venter.

MR DU PLESSIS: Okay, from the time of leaving Bloemfontein and when you saw him in court again did you ever see him in that period?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No, Sir, there was nowhere where I saw him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you speak to him over the phone or otherwise?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No Sir, there's nowhere where I talked with him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chair. 	Mr Mtyhala, I've been instructed to put it to you that you have indeed participated in the torturing of the group of 19 here in Bloemfontein.  That was on sixth of April 1986.  What is your reaction to this?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No, that is just an allegation, I did not do that.

MR STANDER: A role which you specifically played consisted of you having the women in particular drink water. thus to intimidate them in order to gain their co-operation. What is your reaction to this?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: There's nothing like that.

MR STANDER: I also wish to state to you that the reason why you deny this is because of the fact that you have not applied for amnesty and that is why today you are forced to deny this.

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I'm not deny this thing. I did not do that.  I haven't done anything, if I did anything I could have applied for amnesty.

MR STANDER: No further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Mtyhala, my instructions are that you and Ngo were very close whilst you where stationed here in Bloemfontein, that you used to drink together at times.

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: There is no way I drank with him, he came only twice.  After leaving that - my sister's child, he was together with my sister's child at school.

ADV MEMANI: And were you otherwise close with him at work?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: We saw each other only at work when we report and when we knocked off but I haven't worked with him outside.

ADV MEMANI: And did he on occasion sleep at your place?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No, he never slept at my place.

ADV MEMANI: Haven't you perhaps forgotten, because he tells me that he used to sleep at your place at times?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No, I did not forget, that is a lie.

ADV MEMANI: Now, and you worked - do you agree with him that you worked with him at black section under Shaw and Coetzee?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I already said that we reported to Coetzee and the second in charge was Coetzee in that section.   My work was the churches section.  The black section was separate from the church section.

ADV MEMANI: You are not motivated by any ill feelings to come and testify here against his application, isn't it?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No Sir, there is nothing.

ADV MEMANI: And there were no feelings between yourself and Mr Ngo?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: From the start, even up to now, I regarded him as my younger brother and my colleague.  I don't even have ill feelings.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you do not have any ill feelings against Mr Motsamai, do you?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I have no problem with Mr Motsamai because I regarded him as my friend and my brother.

ADV MEMANI: And he also regarded you as a friend and a brother?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I don't know as to whether he pretends to be a friend and a brother because I will not able to analyse his feelings but we do not have a problem.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, thank you.  Mr Chairman, perhaps I should record that if my learned friend, Mr Melani does not put this witness the evidence of his applicants, I'm going to argue that he's conceded them. With respect, I don't want to tell him how to do his job Mr Chairman, but there is a problem now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, I can't see the problem. Yyou're both counsel and you know how to handle your cases and you could argue your case and he could argue his case.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The next witness is Mr Litseho, L-i-t-s-e-o.  I'm sorry, that's the incorrect spelling, L-i-t-s-e-h-o, I'm sorry Mr Chairman.
    Mr chairman there is an affidavit of this gentleman before you.  Sorry that we're not ready Mr Chairman, this came a bit sudden.

MR LITSEHO: [sworn states]

MR VISSER: Bundle B, page 96 Mr Chairman.
    Mr Litseho, are you a member of the South African Police?

MR LITSEHO: I was a member of the SAP, I'm now on pension.

MR VISSER: With what rank did you go on pension?

MR LITSEHO: I was a sergeant.

MR VISSER: Do you see the document now placed before you, is that an affidavit which you signed?

MR LITSEHO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of what is stated in that affidavit?

MR LITSEHO: Yes.

MR VISSER: When did you join the South African Police?

MR LITSEHO: It was in 1975.

MR VISSER: Do you remember the month?

MR LITSEHO: It was in April, the 14th of April 1975.

MR VISSER: When did you join the security branch here in Bloemfontein?

MR LITSEHO: I joined them in 1987.  It was in January, January of 1987.

MR VISSER: Until January of 1987, where were you stationed?

MR LITSEHO: I don't understand you question before that Sir?

MR VISSER: I sorry.  I want to know, before January of 1987, where were you stationed?

MR LITSEHO: I was stationed at the National Intelligence Service and I came to Batu for 6 months in 1986.

MR VISSER: When you came to the security branch, in January 1987, in which section did you work?

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible] who the other members were who worked in that section?