Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: (continued)   Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Nosenga, when you entered the township in the casspir now, did you see any people or any person of the township walking around or standing around?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there were people walking in the street, some of them died.

MR STRYDOM: When you entered the township and saw these people for the first time, what were they doing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were walking in the street.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any person who defended the township, or who looked as if he is on duty to defend the township at the stage when he entered the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I just saw people walking in the township.

MR STRYDOM: So I take it, when you entered the township, you did not see any people sitting around, because you say you only saw people walking around?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I saw people walking in the evening.

MR STRYDOM: In your statement, on page 21 paragraph 17, and just to remind you that is the statement that was taken by Mr Kjellberg, paragraph 17 you say
"...  we all entered the township from the field side on different streets.  The people and the casspirs were split up.  I do not know the time of the attack, but I know it was dark."
	Then you said -
"... I saw how people were sitting around open fires surrounding the township, run away when they saw us."
	In the light of the fact ...

MR LAX: Sorry, we didn't get the translation of that.

INTERPRETER: I was just rectifying a mistake with him Chairperson.

MR LAX: Okay, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just repeat the answer please?

MR LAX: No, the Interpreter is just correcting something with him,  just trying to work something out.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw people in the street walking and when we started firing, they ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but what do you say to the statement that was put to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say about the statement, I saw people who were walking and when shots were fired, they ran away.

MR STRYDOM: At any stage during the attack, did you see an open fire?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I didn't see any fire.  I said I saw people walking in the township.  When shots were fired, some of them fled.

MR STRYDOM: The casspir that was with you, could it drive freely in the streets of Boipatong, or were some of the streets barricaded?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The casspir went into the township, but I can say that the casspir went into the township easily without any barricade.

CHAIRPERSON: In the casspir in which you travelled, did the casspir have any difficulty in driving around the township, whilst you were in the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it did not have any difficulty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: After the casspirs split up, did you see any one of the other casspirs during the time you were in the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw the casspir in which we were travelling.  I saw the casspir in which I was travelling, they split up, these casspirs split up.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but the question is, after the split, and up to the stage you left the township, did you see any one of the other casspirs, did you come across any one of the other casspirs again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I last saw them all together at the veld at Boipatong, and I only drove around in the casspir that I have mentioned before.

MR LAX: Mr Nosenga, just listen to the question please.  The question is not whether you saw them together or not, the question is did you see any one of those casspirs again while you were in Boipatong, after the time that you left your casspir until the time that you left the township?  Do you understand the question?  Do you understand the question, just listen?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: What is your answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I only saw the casspir that I was travelling in.

MR STRYDOM: You mentioned that Gatchene was one of the people in your casspir, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I said.

MR STRYDOM: And you also said that he is an Induna, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is how I know him to be.

MR STRYDOM: So would you say that he was the person in charge or the leader of the group that you were in during the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And Dondo was also one of the members in that group, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: So Dondo was not the person in charge of that group or the leader of the group, it was Gatchene?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At the time when we fired shots at the people, he is the person who commanded us to do so, but whilst we were in the casspir, Gatchene was - I will say Gatchene was in charge.

MR STRYDOM: Did Gatchene also get out of the casspir at any stage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he did get out of the casspir, but I was with the other three people, I was not with him when we attacked.

MR STRYDOM: At what stage did the Policemen in your casspir, put on their balaclavas?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: When the casspir travelled from the veld in Boipatong, that is when they put on the balaclavas.

MR STRYDOM: Was it only the Policemen that put on balaclavas?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only remember the Police.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you say in paragraph 17 of your statement
"... some of our people did also wear balaclavas, but not me?"

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I stated that the hostel residents were headbands, and it was the Police who wore balaclavas, when we went to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position then that you did not say that some of our people put on balaclavas?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, even yesterday I mentioned that we were wearing headbands.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of the attack, did you see any white people that painted their faces black?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they were wearing balaclavas.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but I am not referring to balaclavas, I am just ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there were some who were painted black.

MR STRYDOM: That is now without balaclavas, but with painted faces, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They did wear them, they did wear balaclavas.

MR STRYDOM: Just to get clarity, so you say they painted their faces black and then they put balaclavas over the painted faces?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they had put something on their faces, although I do not know what it was, and they did wear balaclavas as well.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you see these people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At the spot where we came up on the casspirs in the veld.

MR STRYDOM: These people were they part of the group that were in your casspir, or from other casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw them in my casspir, the casspir that I was travelling in.

MR STRYDOM: Now we know the Policemen in your casspir, Chaka, Peens, Rooikop and another person.  Did Peens paint his face?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  They had painted themselves, I even saw them in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, please stop looking at the document next to your Attorney, do you understand?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Speak up when - don't just mumble, we don't hear what you say.

MR STRYDOM: You said Peens painted his face and Rooikop?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I said the Boers had painted themselves.

MR STRYDOM: And the driver of that casspir, did he also paint his face?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  Although I did not know him.

MR STRYDOM: Why didn't you say in your statement that Peens and Rooikop painted their faces?