Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairperson, we want to call Mr Fuchs as a witness.

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: (sworn states)

ADV VISSER: Mr Fuchs, just switch on the microphone in front of you.  Mr Chairman, we refer you to your Section B of the bundle of documents before you, page 48 - well, really it is page 50 and following.
	Mr Fuchs, are you comfortable with the earphones?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, thank you.

ADV VISSER: You are an applicant for amnesty before this Committee and your application deals with the incident which took place on the 10th of July 1986, near Alldays on the Breslau/Alldays road, is that correct?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct, yes.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt, I don't think the witness has been sworn in?

ADV VISSER: He has.

MR BLACK: Has he, I am sorry, I was busy.  Sorry Mr Visser.

ADV VISSER: You completed the necessary form for amnesty and that appears in the bundle under B, on pages 50 onwards.  	Do you have that document or have you read it recently, are you satisfied that it reflects the true facts in so far as they are applicable to your application?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, I am so satisfied.

ADV VISSER: In your application you also referred to two documents, the one is the submission for the foundation for equality before the law and the other is the submission made by General Van der Merwe which was made to the Truth Commission and you are requesting these documents to be incorporated in your application as so far as it is relevant to your application?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: You have also referred to the application of Andries Johannes Gerhardus Erwee, who has just testified in respect of the facts of the matter?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Correct, yes.

ADV VISSER: Now, you have also listened Mr Fuchs to the evidence of the previous witnesses in this matter so far.  You were present in the hall when this took place?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: And do you agree with their evidence in broad terms and in so far as you are aware of what happened at that time?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct, yes.

ADV VISSER: I am of course not referring to Mr Sehlwana.

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, that is what I thought.

ADV VISSER: More specifically as far as you are concerned, your career in the police you summed up from pages 50 to 51, do you confirm that that is correct, or is there a mistake?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: It is entirely correct.

ADV VISSER: What is your current position in the South African Police?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I am still an active member of the SAP, I am still stationed at Internal Stability, that is the old Security Branch.

ADV VISSER: As far as your role in this incident is concerned, now perhaps we can leave the planning issues behind, can you tell the Committee when you became involved in the run up to the events which took place on the 10th and what your duties were? Please tell us in your own words?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, on the 9th of July I had been at the festival grounds for a day or so and I was requested to go to Alldays, to the police station there, where certain instructions would have been given to me there.

ADV VISSER: I need to interrupt you there.  You say you were at the festival grounds, now where is that?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I must correct myself, on the 24th and the 25th of June I was at the festival grounds after we had received information that three foreign persons would go to Seshego, which is very close to Pietersburg.

ADV VISSER: Where is this festival grounds?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: The festival grounds are just outside Pietersburg, on the Dendron road, approximately 500, 600 metres on the other side of the Seshego turn off.

ADV VISSER: What was your duty, what were you supposed to do?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: There were ABS people with me, Internal Stability people with me and there were also two vehicles from the Internal Stability staff.  My estimation is that there were between eight and ten people.

ADV VISSER: ABS is referring to Division Internal Stability?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: What was your duty in that regard?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: During the 24th and the 25th a request was made to me that if the people were to travel to Seshego, I had to stand there to ascertain whether or if they went to Seshego, that these DIS people should be made available to arrest them if they were in houses in Seshego or wherever.

ADV VISSER: Were you aware of the type of vehicle which you were supposed to observe?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, it was a light brown Toyota Corolla sedan.

ADV VISSER: And on the 24th and the 25th did this light brown Toyota drive past or what happened?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No.  I received a request from my office by radio that it was no longer necessary and that I should withdraw from the terrain, that was on the 24th and also on the 25th, I got the same request.

ADV VISSER: Afterwards you were once again involved.  Please tell us what happened?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: On the 9th of July, I was requested by my office to go to Alldays.  I was supposed to report to the police station and receive instructions.

ADV VISSER: Did you receive instructions there at Alldays on the 9th of July?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: When I arrived at the police station, there were already a number of staff members, well-known people from Louis Trichardt and Messina.  We stood around whilst Captain, who is now Colonel Erwee, went to the office along with the Defence Force person and I think that that is where they did the planning.

ADV VISSER: Now you talk about a Defence Force person, who is that?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: He was an Officer.  At that stage I did not know who it was, it was only the next morning that I learnt that it was Captain Born and that he was the Officer of the Defence Force.

ADV VISSER: What instructions did you receive as far as you can remember Mr Fuchs?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Nothing much was told to us that afternoon, but that evening at the farmhouse where we were to overnight, we were told what we were supposed to do the next morning and the full planning was actually done the next morning at the scene.

ADV VISSER: What was your understanding of the purpose of your operation and what were your instructions?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: I went with a group of people in this specific combi to the scene where the casspir accompanied us and there was probably one vehicle, a bakkie, which also went along.
	I was in the little bus, the minibus and we drove early in the morning and arrived at this place where we were to perform the operation.

ADV VISSER: What was the purpose of the operation, or what were your instructions?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: The instructions were that we had to arrest six trained people who came from Botswana.

ADV VISSER: Where were you placed during this incident?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Perhaps I should just pre-empt it here, I was also present where I saw that Captain Born and Colonel Erwee, as well as Matthews were busy rehearsing the events.
	I was standing on the bank of the river and I watched whilst this was being done.

ADV VISSER: What was your understanding of that rehearsal, what was to happen?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: It was very clear that these people we had been told about, we had to arrest them.

ADV VISSER: Yes, but how did you understand this rehearsal, how was this to take place?