Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sergeant Mamome.
	I got into the car, we drove to Mrs Winnie's house.  There at Brandfort there is a road - he knew it, I didn't know that road.  I don't know how he came to that road.  It's the road that enters Brandfort but you leave the tar road, it's on the left side just next to Brandfort.  He used that road.  I asked him: "where are you going, seemingly we are not going to Brandfort".  He said: "no, we are going - we're not going through Brandfort".  
	He stopped the car in the veld.  Seemingly he came to this road before the time we were driving on it, however I don't know when that was.  We left for Mrs Winnie's house.  At Mrs Winnie's house there's a lamppost, a big one in front of her yard.  It's quite visible before that light - that lamppost in front of the house.  We just had hang gloves, we didn't use balaclavas.  We used the street behind the house so as to find our path to Mrs Mandela's house, that was the only choice we had or rather we had to go through that street where we were visible because of the lamppost.  
	We found the door locked.  The windows were also locked, even those at the back.  He took a stone and threw it through the window so as to open the window.  He got inside, then I followed after him.  We looked inside the house - if I'm not mistaken, the entrance we used it was a sort of a two or three roomed house, a portion of the house - it was dark.  He went inside and came back to report that there isn't a person inside.  
	Now, I ask him: "where do we start"?  He said: "these things are far apart from each other, then we cannot set the house alight".  Then he got this curtain, poured petrol over it.  After having poured the curtain with the petrol, he took out the matches and set the curtain alight.  It went haphazardly around the room and there was this bed where we were standing.  Before the house could catch fire, we went out to the car and it's very far where we parked the car, it could be a kilometre from the house.  
	We went through the veld to the car and I was asking him: "where is the car" because it was dark.  He said: "come, you will see where I parked the car".  We got to the car and we drove back to Bloemfontein.  As we came to Bloemfontein, we reported to Colonel Coetzee - Major Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw, that we took out our task as ordered.
	Now, it happened that the following day after we reported to them - it could have been 12 o'clock or 1 o'clock, they called us.  I don't know what they have heard about Winnie's place because Mrs Winnie - we tapped her phone.  That phone was tapped at the Brandfort police station.  There was a special room used by the security police alone.  There were bugging machines - that telephone was bugged as was to monitor Mrs Winnie's activities - with whom does she have her conversations, we wanted to know about her political activities.  
	These people that she would have communications - we wouldn't know whether she was talking to somebody in Johannesburg.  Whether she asks for a certain person maybe on the telephone who was in Cape Town or Johannesburg, we would write the names down and we'll look at the index whether we find that name there.  How do you associate that name with those that we have in the files. 
	About the files - before I continue, these files - something came out of these files because they had all sorts of information.  The files contained all sorts of information about the comrades, what are her movements or his movements.  I think if you could find these files, they could be of assistance to the TRC in a certain manner because when we track somebody, we would track you until you die.   We must file your death certificate according to the command we received.  I wanted that to be recorded.
	It so happened that they called us boys - Mamome, come here, we have problems here.  This woman - it seems there at the clinic there are some children who are taught about communism.  This information comes from the informers according to Colonel Coetzee and according to Mr Ramosoeu, as he has been to Brandfort tracking Winnie, listening to her telephone conversations, stealing her letters - he had a key.  I don't remember that postal box - we got letters from that postal box.  I cannot recall the box number - the post office at - next to the police station in Brandfort.  How the security police got this key, I cannot tell -  they know.
	He told us this person is troublesome, we must devise a means what else can we do there - what can we do about the clinic.  We kept quiet because we were waiting for him to give us an instruction.  He said: "I want it burnt down".  He gave us R20,00.  That R20,00 was from Shaw.  They said to us that would be enough or sufficient for 10 litres of petrol, 2 x 5 litre containers.  We took the money - we didn't remind them that the petrol that they said we must tap from the Datsun Laurel is still available.  At Winnie's place we didn't remind them.
	Myself and Mamome were given the command, we were given money, we went upstairs - had tea.  We took out our vehicles, worked and we came back - knocked off duty and left for home.  I bought the petrol during the night, 2 x 5 litre containers, plastic containers for petrol.  At midnight he - they came driving in a Kombi.  
	Now what surprises me, it's seeing him with the other people that we work with who were not given a command from Colonel Coetzee and Shaw.  Where he got them, I don't know.  They were seated at the back in the Kombi, he was driving -  I entered - we drove off.  There was David Morakile at the back, Mtyala and Miningwa.  We drove until we came to the road that lids to Brandfort.  After driving 20 kilometres - 20 to 25 kilometres, we came across a car driven by Mr Ramosoeu.  It was on the left side of the road facing the direction of Brandfort.  
	I asked this person Mamome:, "now what's happening, here's Ramosoeu's vehicle here - it seems to me it will follow in the direction that we were headed"?  He said: "I do not know maybe he wants to see if we will take our task because according to the information, this is the job he assigned to us".  I asked him: "who are we going to get there"?  He said:  "there isn't a person that we will meet, I heard that Winnie Mandela would be attending a case in Cape Town".  
	He used the road that we used when we entered Brandfort.  He parked there in the veld.  We left the Kombi there in the veld.  We started using the path toward the location where Mrs Winnie stayed.  Something again surprised me - on a previous occasion when we got there, the lights were switched on but this time the lights were switched off.  I don't know whether there was a car that collided with the lamppost and now the lamppost was no longer functioning.  It was dark at this time.
	We went straight and entered.  Him, Mamome, told Miningwa and Morakile and Mtyala that: "I want you to look around, if there would be a person who would see what we are doing, you inform me or you deal with that person accordingly" -  anyone who would see us.  That meant if there be - there was somebody who saw us on that day, this man would do something about that person, that the person might be killed and officers would account to avoid maybe a jail sentence for what we were about to do.
	Morakile and Mtyala were left in the street.  There was a trench next Mrs Mandela's place leading in the direction of the stadium.  He broke the window of the clinic, took that petrol container and then I followed him.  Inside the clinic there was a door that was locked and next to the door is a window.  After we entered through the window there was a door that led into the other room, there were two rooms - halls.  These halls had wooden chairs - wooden benches and there were files inside the clinic.  In the other hall there were files and benches, wooden benches.  
	I got into the other room - I poured petrol and he did the same in the other room.  He told me that petrol that we poured must meet at a certain point so that when you set the house alight, it must catch fire quickly.  We poured petrol all over the furniture we found inside there and I asked him where he was.  We didn't have much petrol as we had 5 litre containers.  He said he still had petrol and we poured petrol until - to a point where we reached the window and we poured petrol all over the curtains.
	Once we finished pouring the petrol, we left the containers there.  The petrol smelt very bad - we went outside to catch some fresh air.  He gave me matches.  I then closed the window.  Where he broke the window with the stone, that's were I started lighting - igniting but I had already told him that they must move far from the clinic because I know what kind of substance we're using there.  I set the clinic alight - there was a flame.  
	As I turned running away, Miningwa was just here.  The flame did cast some light over him - I could see him.  Once it exploded, he got scared - I don't know what scared him or was it because of the explosion.  All these gasses meeting inside the house there and exploding.  Then we all ran away because there was a big flame and we didn't have balaclavas.  We sped away into the open veld.  When we were far away in the open veld we could see the big flame. We got into the car and drove back home.  We took each one home.
	The following day at the parade, Coetzee was asking myself and Nzito, not knowing that Nzito brought along his own people ...[intervention]