Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MSIANDA NTONGA: (sworn states)

MR KINCAID: Mr Chairperson, mindful of what you addressed to me earlier as to the specifics of the amnesty application, at page 30 of the bundle, the offences for which he was convicted and sentenced appear.
	Msianda, are you comfortable if I call you by your first name?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes I'm comfortable.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy has testified before this Committee and he has set out the circumstances and the context in which life was lived in Stutterheim from the period 1985 to the period of the commission of these offences in 1990.  Do you agree with Jimmy's assessment of this situation in Stutterheim covering that time period?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes, it is like Jimmy said.

MR KINCAID: How old are you now, Mr Ntonga, Msianda, how old are you now?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I'm 26 years old.

MR KINCAID: At the time of the commission of these offences you were still a teenager, you were still a young man is that correct?

MSIANDA NTONGA: That is correct.

MR KINCAID: And Jimmy has described how it was that the youth of the Stutterheim communities were at the forefront of the violent struggle with the security forces.  Were you likewise involved in that struggle?

MSIANDA NTONGA: That is correct.

MR KINCAID: Were you a member of a political organisation?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I was not a member, I was a supporter of the ANC.

MR KINCAID: Now Jimmy described how you attended a meeting in the church hall, the Matamela church hall in the Kabosi Township.  Were you at the hall on that particular day when the security forces came and raided the hall?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes I was present at the hall.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy described how people were shot and teargassed and how they were violently dispersed.  What kind of emotions did that incident instil in you, how did you react to that incident?

MSIANDA NTONGA: That was a painful event because the teargas that was in that hall went in front of my home.  Even though I was still young at that time it also effected me emotionally.

MR KINCAID: In what way?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Because I realised that we were not safe and even my family was not safe.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy then testified to two meetings which were held consequently upon the shooting of that church hall, they were held on a soccer field, Jimmy says.  Do you know anything of those meetings?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is so, I do have a knowledge about the meetings.

MR KINCAID: Did you attend there Msianda, did you attend those meetings?

MSIANDA NTONGA: That is correct, I was present.

MR KINCAID: And can you confirm or tell the Committee what broadly speaking the decision of the meeting was?

MSIANDA NTONGA: The decision that was taken in those meetings was that there were going to be letters that would be sent to the farmers around our community to tell them that they should leave their places and look for other places in town and the youth as we realised that we were not safe, we were told to look for weapons so that we can defend the people in the community.

MR KINCAID: Is that how it came to be that you involved yourself in the incidents starting off with the attack on Mr Hansel, did you go to Mr Hansel's home and did you attack him there?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Why did you decide that it was right, why did you align yourself, why did you associate yourself with this group that went to attack Mr Hansel?

MSIANDA NTONGA: At that time when you were at my age you were supposed to involve yourself or associate yourself because if you did not do that you'd be seen as a person who was not doing something that was right so I associated myself because of what I saw, what was done by the police to our community at the time, the police together with the soldiers, that is why I decided to take part in that.

MR KINCAID: And what did you do, did you cause any injury or in any way assault Mr Hansel?  What was your act of involvement in the attack on his home and on him?

MSIANDA NTONGA: The role that I took was to test the firearm on a photo that was hanging on the wall, I wanted to test whether the firearm was working properly.  I tested that firearm and I found that it was operating.  My other role before he showed us the firearm he didn't want to show us that, I also hit him, I took part in hitting him and then he showed us the firearm.  I then stopped hitting him and I tested the firearm in his house, inside his house.  That's the role I took.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy said that there was a large group of people who throughout the incidents involved themselves in the attacks on these farmers, that it wasn't just the seven of you who were tried in the Supreme Court, that the groups were always big on that or what do you make of that observation?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is true, it was not only the seven of us, it was not only those who were arrested, there were other people too.

MR KINCAID: Did you bear Mr Hansel any ill will or spite, did you have any personal reason for wanting to injure him, Msianda?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, I didn't have anything against him and I was not even related to him but I was there because of what we were looking for and also wanted to threaten him so that he can leave that area.

MR KINCAID: Did you take any of his property Msianda?  Did you take any of his clothing or his linen or any other thing which was not a weapon or an arm?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I only remember the firearm that was with me and eight bullets that's all, I don't remember anything else.  There's nothing else I saw except those even though we were a group of people inside.

MR KINCAID: The attack on Mr Cobus, were you party to that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: That is correct.

MR KINCAID: And what was your involvement in the attack on Mr Cobus, did you personally cause him any injury or assault him in any way?

MSIANDA NTONGA: What I did - are you referring to Mr Erickie?

MR KINCAID: Yes.

MSIANDA NTONGA: I shot at him.

MR KINCAID: Why did you shoot at him?

MSIANDA NTONGA: The reason was I was afraid because he missed me with a firearm, I was just trying to scare him, I was trying to shoot through a window and then he got shot.  I didn't think that I would hit him or the bullet would strike him, I thought I was just scaring him.  We told him that we also had a weapon so he must stop shooting, we were not there to kill him, we just wanted a weapon.  We were outside next to the window when we were talking to him.

MR KINCAID: You mention that you did not want to kill him.  Jimmy testified that the meeting decision was that farmers were not to be killed.  Do you confirm Jimmy's testimony in that regard?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes, those were the instructions that we were given after we were told to intimidate or threaten the farmers, we were told not to kill them and we were told them not to take anything else except for the weapons and the camouflages of the military uniform.

MR KINCAID: So you were alive to that warning when you shot at Mr Erickie, Mr Cobus, were you or were you aiming to kill him?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes I was not aiming to kill him because I didn't even see where he was I was just shooting.

MR KINCAID: The evidence disclosed that you were unable to get any firearms from Mr Cobus, Mr Erickie.  The next incident would have been the Pretorius incident when both Mr Pretorius and his farm assistant Mr Senti were injured.  What was your involvement in those attacks Msianda?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR KINCAID: Mr Pretorius and Joe Senti, how did you involve yourself in the attacks on them or what role did you play?