Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

UNKNOWN: It was Saturday morning on the 29th.  I was with my late brothers, Sabani Manglagayiso Philemon.  We took a bus to Empangeni.  We were going to buy some stuff which we needed for the funeral of Gerald.  The bus stopped next to Mr Gumede's house and I saw Mr Gumede outside his yard and then I told my brothers that there he was, Mr Gumede.  Because it was difficult to see Mr Gumede and since he was killing comrades I told my brothers this was a convenient time for me to go visit him.  I had a gun, a licensed gun and Sabani, my brother, also had a gun
4B - 11.2	belonging/...
MS THABETHE	161	MR MZIMELA
belonging to another policeman.  We agreed that we must go and see Mr Gumede and then we said we must go and try to kill him because people were scared of killing him.  We went there.  We passed his house and then we used the back entrance.  We took our guns out.  We went inside his house and his wife was washing dishes and then she ran away.  I heard a toilet flushing.  I went there.  When we arrived there that's when I started shooting at him.  I finished the first magazine and Sabani, my younger brother, tried to shoot him as well, and he failed and then I put another magazine.  I finished it. I took Sabani's gun.  I finished that magazine as well.  That's when we  ran away back to Maxigani, at Sabani's house.   I will be lying if I can tell you how much because one magazine had 15 and then the second one only seven rounds were left.  And then another one had 15 as well.  I think only one was left.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mzimela, you went to town specifically to attend to the funeral arrangement of your late brother on that day.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yet you were armed and your brother Philemon was also armed.

UNKNOWN: Yes, like I said, my gun was a licensed gun, only Sabani's gun, which belonged to another policeman, and the situation was so bad and tense that we were supposed to be armed all the time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you travel with your firearms all the time?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairman, there is one more issue that I would just like to raise, if it is possible at this stage.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
MR WILLS	162	MR MZIMELA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLS: These IFP meetings, how were they called and who called them?

UNKNOWN: The only person who had rights to call meetings was the Chief.  The Chief will do this by telling the Chief's counsellor.  The Chief's counsellor also had rights to call meetings.  He used to call meetings at his house.  Like I have already told you that decisions were taken at his house as to who must be eliminated.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee what would happen if persons didn't go to those meetings?

UNKNOWN: People who never attended these meetings received letters from Mr Gumede.  He used to tell them that they must choose whether they want to stay in that area or to leave the area.  For example, Beki Xhosa, who was our chairperson, his house was targeted by Mr Gumede.  He used to write these letters to his house.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it, which person was it?  To whom was such a letter written?

UNKNOWN: Mr Gumede used to write these letters to people who never attended his meetings.  He used to tell them they must choose whether they want to stay there or to die.  And one family, Xulu's family, received that letter and they left that place and people don't know where he went.

MR WILLS: Just one final issue.  Mr Mzimela, you have killed a person.   His relatives are here.  How do you feel about this now?

UNKNOWN: Mr Gumede's death is really disturbing me.  I never had any aim or object to kill someone, but the way the IFP was killing people in our area, we had no choice.  We had to defend ourselves because they were killing us,
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MR WILLS	163	MR MZIMELA
attacking us all the time.

MR WILLS: No more questions from Mr Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Mr Mzimela, I am not saying amnesty will be granted to you and I am not saying amnesty will not be granted to you.  But should amnesty be granted to you, are you going to go back to that area you were staying in?

UNKNOWN: I will be very much happy if this Commission can grant me amnesty.  As to going back to that area, I don't think I will.  I will go back to Eskaweni and only if the situation down there is cooled down that's when I will go back, but now I am scared.

MS THABETHE: ... on behalf of the victims, because as I mentioned earlier on, I consulted with them.  They raised a concern with me that what if you come after them.  Do you have any comments on that?

UNKNOWN: With all due respect to your Committee, Mrs Gumede is my witness, she was at her yard that day.  I didn't say a thing to her because she didn't do anything to me.  The person I was after was her husband and I don't have anything against Mrs Gumede.  It will be a mistake if today I can go back and want to kill her.  I don't have any reason why to go after Mrs Gumede and in all this incidents which happened, Mrs Gumede wasn't involved at all.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the children of the deceased?

UNKNOWN: To all the family members, I would like to tell them that I am very sorry and unfortunately I don't know his children and the only person that I can talk about in all these incidents is Mrs Gumede and I don't have a reason to go after her.

MS THABETHE: The next of kin of the victims would like to say something.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
MS THABETHE	164	MR MZIMELA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: There is one thing that is not quite clear to me.  The deceased was a counsellor for your father, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And he called meetings on behalf or instructions of your father.

UNKNOWN: There were some meetings which were called by Mr Gumede and he received those instructions from my father and there were some other meetings where he himself will just call those meetings.

ADV DE JAGER: Were all those meetings held at your father's house?

UNKNOWN: Some of them.  If it was my father who called those meetings, those meetings were held at his place, at
my father's place.  If it was Mr Gumede they were held at Mr Gumede's place.

ADV DE JAGER: And the resolutions taken to kill I presume was taken at your father's house.

UNKNOWN: Unfortunately no.  People used to tell us who went to these meetings ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 5A)
It is not easy for me to talk on behalf of my father because he never told me, but what I believe is that he couldn't have taken such decisions that his sons must be killed.  Things started changing when my father elected Booi to take over.  But I don't think he is the one who said Bongo Nkosi must be killed.  And what I am sure of is that these (indistinct) were taken.  I don't know why the police who were safeguarding my father had no guns that night.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever discuss this with your father?

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't talk with my father.  My brother
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CHAIRMAN	165	MR MZIMELA
Eward was still alive and traditionally he was the one who was supposed to talk to my father in matters like that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You didn't send your brother to talk about this with your father?

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't, but he also took that decision to go and speak with my father.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Isn't it a fact that you were adversely affected by the conflict in your area.  Your family was in fact divided into two, with some family members supporting the IFP and some family members supporting the ANC.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And isn't it a fact that the meeting which were convened by the Chief counsellor, the late Mr Gumede, wherein various decisions were taken to eliminate your brothers, were in fact convened at his own instance and at his  residence and not at your father's residence?

UNKNOWN: I think so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... Mr Mzimela, we want you to tell us.