Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

CHAIRPERSON: Why, can you explain from your point of view, why the people were taken, killed and their bodies left in a public place where the public had access to it, the Tugela River, whereas you had farms scattered throughout Natal where they could be safely buried and not subject to possible public discovery?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chair, I don't know that was the planning of that day.  The farm that Vorster had I don't think the farm was still in our possession at that time.

MR LAX: But Blackburn was?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes Chairperson, but we stayed on Blackburn so we would not have buried someone there.

MR LAX: People were living on Waterloo at the time then Ngwene was buried there?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: He was buried about 40 metres from the house?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson that was Taylor's decision it wasn't my decision.

MR LAX: But this wasn't your decision either, this was Botha's decision which you agreed with?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MS POSWA: Thank you.  Can you just clarify again, what did you say the reason for stopping at the river, what reason was given for stopping at the river.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The fact that we would have urinated, that was to the deceased.  The reason why we stopped at the river was to eliminate the people and the reason that we presented to them was to urinate.

MS POSWA: I thought previously in your evidence you had said that Van Der Westhuizen pointed out the place that is why you then stopped?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the plan was to eliminate the people at the Tugela River at the mouth.

MR LAX: What's the difference, with respect?

MS POSWA: No, the thing I'm trying to get to here, I wanted to know whether it was what happened.  I think a question was asked what happened when the vehicle stopped, why did the vehicle come to a stop.  He said Mr van der Westhuizen pointed out the spot.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is that he said this was after the vehicle had stopped and after they had got out that he pointed out where to take these two men to.

MS POSWA: Thank you Mr Chair, I wasn't aware.
	What equipment did you take on the day?  What equipment did you take to the murder site?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the things that I mentioned in my evidence, firearms were taken, also concrete poles, hessian and wire.

CHAIRPERSON: This hessian, was that sacks?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes it was like sacks but they weren't closed, they were open.  It was open like a roll.

MS POSWA: Mr du Preez, can you tell us how were you able to perform all these intricate procedures at that time of the night?

MR VISSER: Which intricate procedures is being referred to, Chairperson?

MS POSWA: How were you able to take the deceased, put them in the sack, tie them up and tie the poles onto the sacks in the dark?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was light enough to do it, we could see.

MS POSWA: Where did the light come from?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it wasn't pitch dark that you couldn't see, I could see where the people were lying.

MS POSWA: I think you need to be specific here, where was the light from?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was night and I could see in the night.

MS POSWA: I think I have a problem here, I don't know where I'm not putting this question correctly because Mr Botha gave me a similar answer that it was just light and what I want to put to them is that there is no way you could have done all that in the dark?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was done with the available light that there was.

MR LAX: Advocate Poswa, there's - I don't know, I've heard countless bits of testimony from people who live in rural areas where there are no lights that they recognised someone in the dark let alone did certain things.  People walk on paths from place A to place B, different people have different capacities to see in the dark.  I think we need to - it's not an unreasonable answer.

MS POSWA: At which stage would Ndaba inform you about the safe houses?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think that was from the first night, it was the evening of the 7th.

MS POSWA: And provided the keys to the flat?  The same night?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I can't remember which house we visited on which night.  I can remember is that we visited to or three places, I can't remember the sequence.

MR LAX: I think the question, did he give you the keys on that same night?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: He had the keys in his possession when he was arrested.

MR LAX: So he must have given it to you then?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well not necessarily Ndaba.  Ndaba had the keys to one of the safe houses?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: And he told you about another one.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: So that accords with Mr Maharaj's evidence that he only knew about two safe houses?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: What I know personally, he personally pointed three safe houses out to me.

MR LAX: The evidence so far has been that he only pointed out two safe houses and you only went to two safe houses?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson, he also pointed out others.

MR LAX: Why didn't you go to the third one then if he pointed out a third one?  Why didn't you break into the third one?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: There were people who were staying there.

MR LAX: There's been no evidence whatsoever that anybody went to a third safe house as part of this investigative process.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, perhaps I can clarify this.  The flats that we visited was the flat in Point Road.  I think it was in Parlof Flats, I'm not quite sure.  The other flat we visited was in Brickhill Road and I think it was 48 Deniel, he also pointed out that to me.

MR VISSER: I'm just wondering if I could be of assistance, Chairperson.  I know that a lot of evidence has been given but perhaps could I make reference to two aspects on this very point?  The one is in Exhibit D, paragraph 9.  That was the evidence of Botha you will recall Commissioner Lax that he said that he gave the addresses of several houses, several safe houses and then in Steyn's evidence in Exhibit H, admittedly I did not spend the time to read it out but you will find at page 5 where he copied a part of the judgement of a magistrate in the application to be released on bail by Mr Nyanda and you will see at the bottom of that page - H, Chairperson, that is Steyn's evidence at page 5 thereof, Chairperson, you will see in the paragraph at the bottom of that page, you will see the words
"At the time of his arrest they were busy with establishing an arms pile up.  In the process he obtained several hide outs or what is commonly termed safe addresses by renting"
and then certain addresses are given, two of which have been referred to in the evidence here.  I'm not saying that this is what the evidence of this witness was, I'm simply saying that there has been reference to the fact that more than two safe houses were in fact mentioned.

MR LAX: Yes, the subtle difference is this, is that we know there were many safe houses, there were houses all over the country.  That's one thing to find out after the event and at the time of bail hearing to be able to testify to that, that's one thing.  We're talking about the information gleaned from Ndaba which is a very different thing.