Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: There were not KZP members at Lindelani, they were at kwaMashu.

MR LAX: Why didn't you go to the police and say these are the names of the people who killed my relatives, please make sure you arrest them?  Why did you need to kill them yourself?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: We did go to the police, it was myself and some other family member, and a family member from Luthuli and we reported that people had killed our relatives.  We asked them to go and pick up the bodies, and they said they would not go there, because they fear for their lives.

MR LAX: Did you point out to the police who the people were that had killed your relatives?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, we did.

MR LAX: And you say nothing happened?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Sorry?

MR LAX: Did they investigate the case, did they open a murder docket?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: They last said that they were going to arrest them, but they were never arrested.

MR LAX: Did you go and find out or did you just leave and go to Lindelani?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No, we did not go back, because they had not taken this matter up seriously.

MR LAX: How did you know, you were from Lindelani.  You weren't even back at your area?  You were in Lindelani for over six months, how did you know that nothing had happened?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I went there twice and on the second occasion they told me the same thing and I decided that I was not going to return to the police station, because they were not offering any help.

MR LAX: Do you remember that Mrs Gcabashe gave evidence in the court case?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, I do remember.

MR LAX: She spoke of being threatened with a knife?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Who threatened her?

MR LAX: I will find it for you.  I beg your pardon, she was - accused 1 was ...

MS THABETE: It is page 28 - 29.

MR LAX: Number 1 was Luthuli and you were number 2, is that right?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Luthuli according to her, was armed with a sharpened length of iron, what one would call a (indistinct), is that right?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: He had a knife, not a (indistinct).  It was Ndumisa who carried the (indistinct).

MR LAX: She said that Luthuli was standing over her husband with a knife and that he also had this (indistinct).  She called out to him, she knew him she says, obviously, she cried out Linda, you have killed me.
	Then this Linda then aimed a blow at her, but she stepped back and then he stabbed her husband.  That was Mthetwa.  Did you see that happen?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I only heard of it in court, but I did not witness it happening.

MR LAX: Would you deny that it happened, if you didn't witness it?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I would not deny it, because I did not witness it.  I just heard it from her when she mentioned it in court.

MR LAX: Okay, so you knew all the people that were present at that meeting at Mthetwa's house?  You recognised them as being people who ...

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I did not know all of them.

MR LAX: But it wouldn't have made any difference to you, because they were at an ANC area as far as you were concerned?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: No further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Zulu, I just forgot to put to you after I asked you the number of the people according to you, who were at Mthetwa's kraal, according to the evidence at the trail, there were only six men there, there were no 50 people.  What do you say to that?  There were not 25, there were only six men, what do you say to that, who were at the kraal at Mthetwa.

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: There were not six.  Those were the people who were actually injured.

MR SIBANYONI: That is the only question Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Maharaj, do you have questions arising?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Zulu, you mentioned that at approximately six o'clock in the morning, there were approximately 50 people that attacked the IFP.  I would like you to tell the Committee whether the four people that were killed and the people that were injured by yourself, whether those people were part of the 50 people that attacked the IFP.

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: They were part of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: The question by Mr Maharaj was, of the group of approximately 50 people who you say attacked the IFP area, do you say that the four deceased, the four people that you killed at Mthetwa's place and the others that were injured at Mthetwa's place, were amongst that group who attacked earlier?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, they were present.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAHARAJ

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman.  Just to make a follow up on the question asked by my colleague, when your people were attacked by allegedly ANC members, how were they attacked?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: They surrounded us, they divided themselves into three.

MS THABETE: Were you in your houses, where were you?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I was at home.

MS THABETE: So they came in and they surrounded you?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: My home is actually along the road, so when these people approached, I could actually see them approaching and when we saw them, we fled.

MS THABETE: You fled when you saw them coming down to attack you?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETE: Because my question to you was, how did you identify these six men out of 50 people who were there, how did you manage to identify them?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I would also be able to see them when they approached, that is why I fled because I recognised them, and knew who they were and that they were coming to attack us.

MS THABETE: So you are saying out of 50 people who came to attack you, you could identify the victims as one of the people who came to attack you?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I mentioned before that I saw these six people who actually were amongst the group, but I also saw the rest whose names I do not know.

MS THABETE: You also talk about people from Umbumbulu, who came to attack you.  How do you know these people were from Umbumbulu?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: They were strangers in the area, I knew them.

MS THABETE: No, I am not asking whether they were strangers, I am asking you how did you know that they were from Umbumbulu?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: My sister is married to somebody from Umbumbulu and she said that these people were from Umbumbulu and she knows them.

MS THABETE: Why do you think people from Umbumbulu would attack you at Ndwedwe?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Because of the situation back then, they assumed that we were IFP and the ANC people from Ngonweni knew just how strong we were, and I think that is why they told these people that there is this IFP area and such and such people reside at this area.
	That is why I think they came to attack us.

MS THABETE: When you attacked at the Mthetwa place, were there any people shot or did any of you fire shots?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETE: Did they fire shots at the deceased or at some people who were sitting there?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: We were just shooting in the air when they had already fled.

MS THABETE: Why I am asking you this, it is because in your application, the Zulu version on page 6, let me check the English one, page 15, you say we killed the ANC followers by shooting and stabbing them and hacking them, yes.
	What did you mean by that if you didn't kill anyone by shooting them or was it a mistake?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: It is true. I meant to say that the guns or firearms were also fired.

MS THABETE: No, what I am asking you is, you say here you killed them by shooting and hacking them, and your evidence today is that you shot, you fired shots in the air and you didn't kill them by shooting at them.  How do you explain that contradiction?