Human Rights Violation Hearings — Tembisa — 1996-11-28

DIPHO MOKOENA: I would say in that section we had CID of police who were staying around where we picked up Brian's corpse.  It's just unfortunate at that stage we took that it was a pure criminal thing. If we knew that it would take us up to here we would go all out and get the police, because immediately after the police just ran away, we don't know
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where did the police run to but there was a police who was staying around where Brian's corpse was picked up.

MR LEWIN: I will ask the other Commissioners if they have any particular questions they would like to ask.

MS MKHIZE: Just around his death, the mention of Ruben, can you tell us who was Ruben and how was he in contact with Brian.

DIPHO MOKOENA: I wouldn't say much about Ruben but the only time that I knew Ruben is when he was coming to tell us that Brian was killed.  But what he told us that night is that he accompanied Brian to go home at that night.  And there were these two guys who killed Brian, he was there, he was a witness and he tried to help Brian not to be attacked.  So he told us every move or every step that took place at that night until he soul left his body.  So I don't know much about Ruben, I only knew him that night.  That's all I can say, that's all I know about him.

MS MKHIZE: I know sometimes it's difficult to recall painful memories but if you can remember, I mean did he describe the people who actually killed Brian as to what kind of people were they?  Were they armed?  Did they initiate a discussion or an argument with him?  Can you just give us a report?

DIPHO MOKOENA: I can't remember exactly what they were saying like I have mentioned.  It is hard to remember.  But Ruben what he told us is that they were having some refreshment in one of the houses there and apparently there was an argument of some kind, Brian stepped on the food of one of these guys, okay, but exactly what happened or the content Ruben didn't tell us that much.  And then after that argument Brian went out and said I am going home and then those guys
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they followed him, and that's how he was attacked, but he didn't tell us in detail what was the argument all about.

MS MKHIZE: If they were having refreshments were they other fellow comrades, what kind of people were they?

DIPHO MOKOENA: I wouldn't say - (tape ends)... difficult to identify whether they are comrades or it's an ordinary person who wants to see this genius or this person who preaches this (...indistinct) to us, so it was difficult for us to say whether they were really comrades or ordinary people.

MICHAEL MDLALA: Brian was one kind of a person who was double. He was a Leo and he did not accept it.  Brian would go to church and rally and recruit people there.  Brian would go to a shebeen. Brian would go to the station and anywhere where there are people.  He used to quote to say, the Mao Tse Tung, "A guerilla amongst the people it's like a fish in the water".  You wouldn't stop him because he was stubborn.  He would go anywhere and he would feel more comfortable amongst people who do not know.  He was a person who wanted to convert every person, even the people that he was with.  We cannot say with all certainty that they were comrades.  But one thing is certain about Ruben is that he was one of the comrades in the youth movement we had mobilised or rallied and that is why we were able to get information from him because he was part of the comrades at that time.

MS MKHIZE: But surely Mr Mdlala he would have known those people very well, especially given the fact that you have said Brian had a high political profile, so I assume that Ruben would have told you what kind of people they were with, whether they were church people or just ordinary people in a shebeen or whatever.
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MICHAEL MDLALA: The information we have it was some kind of a function where they were, and he was with this Ruben all the time.  Because there would be no person who did not want to speak to Brian.  If he was here everybody would be gathered around him because they would want to hear this or that from him.  He was that kind of person.  But definitely and certainly what we know is that Ruben was present.  He also gave us the names of those people who were involved.  And those names were given to the police.  We know even the individuals.  They were not politically involved or politically inclined as I am indicating.  Those were simply thugs.  Just ordinary tsotsis.  And though it is hard to believe, because there would be no way that you could be able to attack Brian in whatever way because he was very intelligent.  He would have been able to detect that this was going to lead me to this and he would be able to run around with people's ideas.  He was that kind of a person.  He convinced anyone easily.  We were able to get transport without us having transport because Brian would approach any person and the way he would speak to that person that person would simply agree to provide his transport.  He was that kind of a person.  It is not easy for an ordinary tsotsi that he would have had anything against Brian, it's impossible.

MS MKHIZE: Partly we are expected to make recommendations as to the kind of reparations which will be appropriate for those people who have been found that their rights were violated.  Having described Brian what kind of reparation do you think would be fitting to remember him or his name to be recorded in the history of this country?

MR MDLADLA: After the death of Brian Brian's mother also
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died because of the shock.  He was the only son.  After his mother died Ndatema Gulu also died. After Ndatema Gulu died Brian's uncle also died.  The only people that survives that I know of are his cousin's sister whom we tried to locate and could not find.  The other person that I know is the wife to the uncle who still survives in Soweto. After the death of Brian's mother Ndatema Gulu then left Soweto to Aliwal North.  So the other cousin's brothers possibly they are there at Aliwal North in a place which I do not know. At this stage I wouldn't say that there is any other person who could have a claim in terms of the family.

MS MKHIZE: I was just thinking that besides financial assistance as a Commission we are looking at different things like symbolical reparations whereby people can be remembered during memorial days or centres named after their name or having a museum in a place where all the heroes would be remembered, hence they said what kind of symbolical reparations do you think would be fitting in his case?

MICHAEL MDLALA: I would not want to speak for the organisation in Tembisa or the organisations in Tembisa, but I have to indicate to say that Brian's commemoration has been held on a yearly basis here in Tembisa.   It was organised in the past not organised in some other years but at this stage I definitely know that there is a street in Tembisa that is named after him.  It is not yet official.  There is a section that is named after him, but he was not only a leader in Tembisa but he was a national leader.  I would think that the organisation would have to think and say what they would think would befit his name.

MR LEWIN: Thank you.  Joyce?

MS SEROKE: Just two brief questions, is Ruben still around TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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Tembisa, Ruben?

MR MDADLA: Yes Ruben is still alive I think.

DIPHO MOKOENA: Yes he is still around here in Tembisa.

MS SEROKE: Can we get his address?

DIPHO MOKOENA: Yes I can give after this.

MS SEROKE: Because we need to get a statement from him as well as a person who was on the spot to facilitate our investigations.  And lastly are these two guys also still around Tembisa, the alleged perpetrators?

DIPHO MOKOENA: Yes they are still around.