Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ANTON PRETORIUS: As you already know, this was done. I said in my statement ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: All right.  Now let me go on, you don't have to say more.  Were you privy to these daily briefings of the transcripts of Mrs Madikizela Mandela's telephone calls? Did you personally know about it?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No. I was not involved in daily, I was not at the office daily. Intelligence Unit worked from a covert premises and weren't at the office every day. There were times that I went in to the office but I wasn't there daily at briefings, sometimes, perhaps once a week I was but not daily.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Vally, just to remind you that you ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Yes, it's like drawing blood from stone Madam Chair and really, I've reminded this witness already but I'm looking at his amnesty application here and really, there's this contradictions I marked but anyway.   Were you privy to any information from a  telephone transcript or anything whatsoever regarding Mrs Madikizela Mandela? - anything.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Chairperson, I mentioned here that I was aware of the daily tapping of Mrs Mandela and her, the telephones at home and at the offices.  My component on a daily basis - after Colonel Watermeyer received the transcripts, those transcripts were also made available to us. It is therefore true, I did receive them but I wasn't there on a daily basis at briefings at an office where Mrs Mandela ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: My question is simple.  Did you in your capacity as a member of the Intelligence Unit see any, any bit of intelligence regarding Mrs Madikizela Mandela, be it a telephone tapping or whatever, anything?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Apart from information that reached me through informants, which wasn't tested from MK members who allegedly had contact with Mrs Mandela, my main source of information about Mrs Mandela's activities, the daily entries that I - transcripts that I received I have read those.  One of my tasks, I wouldn't say it's a task but - I'm looking for the word now ...[inaudible]

MR VALLY: Sorry to interrupt you again, we don't have much time for these long explanations. So you did receive something?  Can you tell us what you remember receiving?  What information, intelligence information regarding Mrs Mandela, anything, please tell us.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Madame Chairperson, I am trying to explain that some of the transcripts that I have received, literally hundreds of those things - from the time that she arrived in Soweto, I as the Intelligence commander, at a stage I wasn't that, I nevertheless had insight in those and my task was to look at where MK members featured in these transcripts.
 I took out and extracted what was important to me, what was important to the Intelligence Unit. I now refer to my own amnesty application ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Tell us again what information did you receive in the Intelligence Unit that was relevant to Mrs Madikizela Mandela? That's all I'm asking you.

MR KEMP: Madame Chairperson, with respect. It's a third time now that the witness will attempt to answer that reply.  Each reply, the past three replies were an explanation of the nature of information which he received. He's busy explaining which information he got, how he disseminated that and if Mr Vally would just give him the opportunity once now to reply in full he might be satisfied and it won't be necessary for him to stop the witness.
 I don't want to object the whole time because it delays proceedings. I just want this objection to be noted and I will try and resist from similar objections.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Kemp thank you but I think your client has been asked the same question three times before we got any admission out of him, that in fact he did receive intelligence information. So while I while caution Mr Vally to allow your client the opportunity to respond to the question I will also ask you, to ask your client to listen very carefully to the questions and to respond to the question being put and not give lengthy explanations.

MR KEMP: Madam Chairperson, I am certain my client noted your request that he tried to answer ...[indistinct] through you I will ask him to do so, thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Tell us specifically any bit of intelligence that your Intelligence Unit gathered regarding Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Commission, I regularly received information that as far as I could ascertain that MK members would visit Mrs Mandela's house, the so called Palace - that is the way I know it amongst others.

MR VALLY: When you refer to the palace, are you referring to the third house? You know the house in Orlando West, you know the house in Diepkloof extension. Are you referring to the third house, the house she presently stays in?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I'm not aware, I don't know where Mrs Mandela resides at the moment but that is at the one that has been a matter of controversy in the media for a long time, which stood empty before she moved in. I suppose it is the one in Orlando West.

MR VALLY: I see.  What did you do with this information that you received?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Are you now referring to the MK members who regularly (...intervention]

MR VALLY: I'm referring to the information you received regarding MK members and Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Commissioner, as is the case with any, a commander of an intelligence service, one should be positive and ascertain whether the information is in fact true because the information that one heard through these telephonic discussions didn't say specifically MK or whoever was in the house at the moment.  This is a long explanation but perhaps this could explain my situation.
 MK members used MK fighting names and those attachments who came to the RSA also used those communication names And some of those names were not known to us. So it is highly unlikely that an MK member would use his own name. Afterwards I had to ascertain whether this person really was an MK man or whether it was an ordinary person who called into Mrs Mandela's house. I don't know whether this is an answer to your question.

MR VALLY: No, it isn't.   You've said that - I assume by this stage you had identified them as MK members. Assuming you had identified this person as an MK member and you knew he has visited Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house, which at that time was a crime, what did you do with this information?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Like I've said I tried to follow up the information. In that specific case which was referred to because that had a lot to do with my amnesty application I made it to the further step in order to get confirmation to the information. Our country was received through tapping but this was an aspect that was treated or mentioned in my application. I nevertheless prepared to mention it.

YASMINE SOOKA: What do you do with the information once you have received it? Now we have established from your previous answer that you have to verify the information. Now can you tell us once you have done that what you actually do with the information?