Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

CHAIRPERSON: This morning we will complete the hearing of the Dion Cele application because one of the applicants, unfortunately, was not available when all the evidence was led on behalf of the other applicants.  Mr Labuschagne, is he here to give evidence?

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, may I just place myself on record?  It's Roelof du Plessis of the Pretoria Bar on instructions of Strydom Britz Attorneys, I act on behalf of Mr Labuschagne.  Before I call Mr Labuschagne, I just want to place a few facts on record, for purposes of the record and just to make things clear. Our client, Mr Labuschagne, in his negotiations with the South African Police Services and the State Attorney, he requested the services of an attorney and counsel to represent him at this hearing.  That request was turned down notwithstanding the fact that there is an existing agreement with the State Attorney and the South African Police Service in that regard.  It seems to us and I'm making this statement on behalf of Mr Labuschagne, that there is currently a discriminatory practice
in respect of the provision of legal services to certain applicants. Some applicants are provided with the services of an attorney and an advocate and some are not in the same hearings.  We believe that that is discriminatory and we believe that that is also unconstitutional and I want to place that on record.
	The position was that Mr Labuschagne indicated that he will not accept the situation as such and that he will then hold his amnesty application over until such time as he has been afforded the right to be represented by an attorney and counsel.  May I say that the practice in South Africa, as you well know, has been that counsel usually appears only with the assistance of an attorney and this matter and the magnitude of these kind of matters is such that I do not believe that it can be dealt with in any other way.  Mr Labuschagne was thereupon was not represented by either Mr Britz or myself last week during the hearing but we have decided in the spirit of this whole process that Mr Britz and I will, to assist the Committee and to safeguard against a possible later hearing of Mr Labuschagne's application, that we will assist the Committee without the situation in respect of representation of Mr Labuschagne having been sorted out and that is why we are here and I place that on record, Chairperson, we are here to assist you and to assist the process and we do not want to make the process more difficult.  It just seems to us that the attitude of the Police Service and the State Attorney in this instance has really
prolonged this matter and has caused further time delays instead of streamlining the process.  We do not believe that it is to the advantage of justice and to the process that it should be dealt with this way and lastly I want to say that Mr Labuschagne obviously reserves all his rights pertaining to this application, pertaining to the process and pertaining to the fact that he was not represented last week in the way that he should have been represented and that the fact that we are here is no waiver of his rights or any concession in any regard in respect of that.
	May I call Mr Labuschagne?

CHAIRPERSON: Please do.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson.

MR LABUSCHAGNE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed?

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson, I'll lead the evidence in Afrikaans.
	Mr Labuschagne, you are currently in the Police Service, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you were in the police service since when?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Since 1976.

MR DU PLESSIS: You have your amnesty application before you?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And your amnesty application commences in the bundle before you, this is the bundle with regard to the application of Dion Cele and it commences on page 116?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you set out your background, your career, your political background and your political motivation from page 116 up to page 152, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you confirm the correctness thereof?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And Mr Labuschagne, last week you attended these proceedings when you had heard the evidence of all your fellow applicants?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you have heard the evidence of all your fellow applicants?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you heard evidence insofar as evidence was offered with regard to the general background of the struggle and the political motivation with which the security branch acted during those years, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: There are just a few aspects which I would like to put questions to you about.  Do you confirm these pages as correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And the evidence that you had heard last week, do you confirm it as correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And therefore it is correct to say that the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch closely worked with the Natal Security Branch?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is so.

MR DU PLESSIS: And it was not strange for you to receive instructions from the people from the Natal Security Branch?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No it was not.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Labuschagne, the acts for which you apply for amnesty appears on page 152, do you confirm that?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And on page 153 you go to the nature and particulars of the incident, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Very well, I shall not ask you to verbally place the evidence before the Committee because it appears in your application.  There are certain aspects which I want to put to you.  Page 153, do you contents of that page?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And do you especially confirm Mr Cele's relationship with the Natal machinery?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes I do.

MR DU PLESSIS: And was he an important person in that machinery?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes he was.

MR DU PLESSIS: And was it your view that the planned action against him insofar as you know the action would have results?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Who approached you to become involved with the operation?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: It was Col Taylor from Durban from the security branch.

MR DU PLESSIS: And then on page 154 of the bundle you give a list of the names of people who were involved there.  Is there anything that you would like to rectify there with regard to the involvement of Sam du Preez that he had been implicated in this matter and before we continue to the further particulars of the incident, you have heard the evidence of the other applicants with regard to the incident itself and the factual version thereof, do you confirm that you agree with the evidence there?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And specifically with the evidence of Mr Verwey?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And on page 154 do you confirm the correctness of the last two paragraphs on that page?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: May we just pause there for a moment?  Was there any reconnaissance done before you became involved in the operation?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And who was involved with the reconnaissance?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: As far as I know at that stage it was Capt Botha and Capt Vorster.

MR DU PLESSIS: And it was reconnaissance trip in Swaziland?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: What was the purpose thereof?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: The purpose was to, amongst others, to become familiar with the environment and vicinity where Dion Cele would be met.

MR DU PLESSIS: And when you executed the operation how many vehicles were used?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Three vehicles were involved.