Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

MR RICHARD: And what happened next?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I don't know whether she lost consciousness, I don't know whether it was because she was struck with a knopkierie, but she was taken out of that yard.  They were dragging her and they were singing songs normally sung by comrades.

MR RICHARD: What were the songs?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: The one that I remember is the one that says (indistinct)

MR RICHARD: They dragged her out of the yard, what happened next?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: She was dragged out of the yard and at that time there was nothing that I could do or explain, so the only thing that I could do at that time was to take that petrol container and douse her with petrol.  I did that.  I doused her with petrol.

MR RICHARD: What did you do next?  Did you or somebody else set fire to the petrol?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: After I had done that, I retreated but I realised that she was already burning.  I didn't see who actually burnt her.

MR RICHARD: Why did people decide that Mrs Baphela was a witch, why did they suspect her of being a witch?  Was she doing anything suspicious, was there anything strange about her?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: There is nothing that she did because I have never seen her doing anything that would make her to be suspected as a witch.

MR SIBANYONI: Why did you personally douse her with petrol?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I don't know what made me douse her with petrol.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone tell you to do that?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it necessary to do so?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It was necessary for me to do that, like I have explained before, I really do not know why I did that.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why I am asking you, they have already given her petrol to drink, they have already doused her with petrol, was it necessary for you to also douse her with petrol?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It was not necessary for me to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Sir, there is only one last line of questioning that I want to go down with.  You said you were surprised that the crowd went straight to Mrs Baphela's house.  Why were you surprised?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: What surprised me was that I did not know why they were going straight to her place, like I have explained before, Mr Theledi did not reveal the name of any person who was responsible for witchcraft in our village.  That is what surprised me, because even when we arrived at the church, we did not name any person as a witch.

MR RICHARD: Were you privately aware of anything that Mrs Baphela might have done to make people suspicious of her, jealous of her or believe that she was a witch?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No, there is nothing that I know.

MR RICHARD: Now, why do you think the killing of Mrs Baphela was political?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It is because the way this incident took place, everything was performed by the comrades and the ANC Youth League and the way they were toyi-toying.

MR RICHARD: Did you simply get carried away?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: May you please explain the question, I don't understand the question.

MR RICHARD: You were part of a crowd of people who went to Mrs Baphela's house, there was ANC youth and others and you knew that you had been trying to find a witch?  You threw petrol on Mrs Baphela, were you simply carried away by the emotion and the feelings of the crowd at the time?

ADV SANDI: Sorry before you answer that, I thought he has told us for at least about two times, that he does not know why he did that?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, I withdraw the question.  In your application for amnesty at page 2 you say
"... in this way we were ordered to burn her by the leader Rinco Masimola and I and Simon Rapula, Leonard Masimola, John Mekameng and others at plus minus 100 in number ...
	what do you mean by that?  What did Mr Rinco Masimola order you to do?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He told us that people like her should be burnt.

MR RICHARD: Did he mention her name?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No, he did not.

MR RICHARD: Then why, what do you mean by "people like her", what was she like?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Are you referring to Rinco or Mrs Baphela?

MR RICHARD: You have said he ordered that "people like her" should be treated as you did.  What do you mean by saying "people like her", what was she like?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I explained  before that  she was just suspected to be a witch.

MR SIBANYONI: What were Rinco Masimola's specific words, what did Masimola say?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He said people who are involved in witchcraft should be burnt and killed.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Then I go to paragraphs 10(a) and 10(b) at page 2 - "state political objective sought to be achieved", there you stated
"... as I mentioned, I was an instrumental organ, I would have to do whatever I was ordered to do, do many activities achieved by the organisation, part of liberation ..."
And at paragraph (b) you carry on to say  in reply to the question "your justification for regarding such acts as one associated with a political objective", you answer was -		"...  it was not my intention, it was the order of the organisation as it was happening throughout the country.  I would not have to do it on my own, it was a political procedure as the organisation was against this."
	What did you mean when you wrote that?  Are you meaning that if you were ordered to kill witches as part of the liberation, you would kill witches?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Then at the end of the paragraph (b)
"... it was a political procedure as the organisation was against this."
	Are you saying that you believed as at 1992, that the ANC was against witches?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I believe the ANC was against impimpi's.

MR RICHARD: Did you believe that witches had to be dealt with the same way as impimpi's?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: And then when you say "it was not my intention, it was an order of the organisation, it was happening throughout the country", what was happening throughout the country?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Impimpi's were burnt throughout the country.

MR RICHARD: What happened to witches throughout the northern province?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They were also burnt.

MR RICHARD: Is that what was happening throughout the country, and you would not have done a witch burning on your own?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.  Have you got any questions, Mr Mokoena?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, I do have some questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Go ahead.

MR MOKOENA: Mr Tladi, to which political party was the deceased affiliated?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I do not know which organisation she was supporting.

MR MOKOENA: Now did you consider her as your political opponent?  Did you consider her as your political opponent?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I have already explained that I did not know in which organisation she was.

MR MOKOENA: Okay.  Let me for the purposes of this question give you the benefit of the doubt that witches were political opponents of say the ANC.  Now, given the fact that she was not even pointed out by Theledi, she was not even named by Theledi, would you still say, would you agree with me that she was never a political opponent?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, I would agree with you.

MR MOKOENA: If you agree to that one, would you also agree with me if I say at the meeting when a spontaneous decision was taken to go and burn her, that the mob could have been influenced by one or two individuals who had personal grudges against her?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I would agree with you.