Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Nothing Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So when did you hear the news, before or after this meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We went to fetch a television and it was on the television.  I will have to lie if I say when it was, I cannot remember when I saw it on the television.

CHAIRPERSON: But you must have watched TV after the meeting because after you guys spoke, it would seem that the right-wingers were responsible for the explosion.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I'll tell you something Chairperson why I thought it was right-wing people who did this, because General Nico Prinsloo when the Natalers from Natal arrived there he told them that the BKA, "Boere Crisis Action" was already busy with certain things but he did not elaborate.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you agree that the television news, you must have seen it after the meeting because you testified that the conclusion was made that it was the right-wing people who were responsible for the bombs because of the fact of what had been said at the meeting.  Is that not true?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I cannot follow you very easily, please excuse me.

CHAIRPERSON: When you heard on the TV news that there was a bomb explosion, did you come to the conclusion that it had to be the right-wing party who had to be responsible for that bomb.  This is the one that was shown on TV and you say that you made that conclusion because of what you heard at the meeting on the game farm that evening.  I am asking you do you agree that you must have heard the news after the meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Now I see what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: You made the conclusion because of the meeting that took place and then you saw the TV news?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Then I must correct myself.  It was the TVs news broadcast I thought it was right-wing people who were involved?

CHAIRPERSON: Because of the fact that you heard it at the meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the meeting have nothing to do with it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No the meeting had nothing to do with it.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said you made the conclusion because of what you heard at the meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No that's a misunderstanding.

ADV BOSMAN: At what stage Mr Fourie did you learn for the first time that Le Roux or knew that Le Roux and Barnard were responsible for the Bree Street bomb.  When did you find that out for the first time?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That Le Roux and Barnard ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Yes that they were responsible for the Bree Street Bomb explosion?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When we got to the shooting range everything became clear to me while we were there.

MS VAN DER WALT: You tried to sort out some confusion here.  The way I understand your evidence, you saw on the television and you heard the comment that it could possibly be a right-wing action?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that evening when pipe bombs were handed out and you knew pipe bombs were going out, what did you then think?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: ... (inaudible - beginning of tape) self it wasn't maybe the same people who did it, because why are the pipe bombs leaving the same place.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am referring to paragraph 28 on page 136: After the first car bomb exploded and with the knowledge of the explosive expert Barnard asked me - when I realised then that the struggle had just begun.  Can you comment on that paragraph?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: How will I put it, if they sent the pipe bombs from us, who made them.  If some of them brought them with then they had to be connected with the, or they had something to do with the other bomb explosions.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you made the conclusion although you did not know what happened in Koesterfontein?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then at a later stage like you gave evidence, you heard what had happened?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then go to the shooting range?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what happened there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We arrived there, things were very disordered and the men asked me if they can go and visit their wives.

MS VAN DER WALT: All the men?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, the majority who were in my area and I told them I'll go and talk to Brigadier Van der Merwe in order to get permission to go to our wives and he then said we could.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there anybody else then appointed as Camp Commandant?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: General Nico Prinsloo appointed Miles Sharp, he was a person who came from Natal, he appointed him as Camp Commandant.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did the people from Natal arrive at the game farm, can you remember?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I can't remember the date exactly, but it was after we arrived there.

MS VAN DER WALT: You then left the shooting range?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know about any other bombs that were exploded?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I didn't know about anything else.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then return to the shooting range?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When we returned from our wives to go back to the shooting range, we stopped at Ventersdorp at the headquarters because Jan De Wet was with us and he said that we must go around to the headquarters.  When we arrived there we me the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terreblanche and other people who worked there at the head quarters.  He then called us into his office and Jan De Wet and he told us that General Nico Prinsloo and Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe were arrested.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know where they were arrested?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I do not know.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this General Nico Prinsloo and Brigadier Van der Merwe, were they your co-accused?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And they were found not guilty?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is true.  When we arrived at the office or when we left the office some of the other men stood outside and Mr Eugene Terreblanche told them, he said men these Generals of mine ate dirt, they dropped us, they left us in the lurch and he used another word in-between which starts with B, "bliksem", he said that they left us in the lurch and those were his words.  He said here is money, go and buy some petrol and do not let them catch you even if you have to shoot your way clear.
	Then he said to us if we get caught we can just keep silent, we have the right to keep silent because it was a good thing, and then the same word he used, and they did well to change this Section 29 and it was then amended.  I do not have a lot of knowledge concerning that.  He then explained to us how it works that we have the right to keep silent or that we would need lawyers to speak for us and we must just remember that we are the heroes of the Volk, the true freedom fighters who were prepared to take part in the struggle.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Fourie can you remember what day it was, was that the day after the explosion at Jan Smuts when you then arrived at the headquarters?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I really do not know, I cannot say.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage had you heard about the explosions?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Well if one is away from the women then one would like to spend some time with your wife and children.  I did not really consider what was going on.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have copies of the Boere identity document, maybe it could be presented to the Committee if the Chairperson agrees, I will submit the original one.  I then ask permission that it can be submitted as Exhibit D.  Sorry I usually speak Afrikaans and then I make such a mistake.