Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

MR KOTZE: Now the BWB, at that stage did it have any kind of familiarity in Secunda?  Did you know what they stood for and what they were planning?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I simply knew that they were also a right-wing organisation.  However, I wasn't entirely certain for what they stood and what they were doing.

MR KOTZE: But it was clear to you that they would attempt to influence right-wing politics?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: Did you then undertake any exercises with the BWB members?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: Can you expand on that briefly?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: We had drills with vehicles and obstacles as well as night watches.

MR KOTZE: And who was involved in these night shooting and obstacle courses?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Various AWB and BWB members.

MR KOTZE: And was the emphasis on the idea that there would be an attack on a vehicle and you would have to know how to protect these vehicles?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: Did you at that stage believe that the threat of an attack on a convoy of vehicles was a real danger?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes I believed it.

MR KOTZE: With regard to the 23rd April 1994, that was the Saturday before the election, how did it transpire that you an Mr de Meillon and Mr van Zyl departed?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I was not at my house, I was at Mr van Zyl's house, my fellow applicant, and we were visiting there when Mr van Schalkwyk and Mr de Meillon arrived there.  Mr van Schalkwyk told me that Mr de Meillon and the others knew where they would be able to get semi-automatic weapons for the safe houses and as I understood it, there was an arsenal of weapons which was illegally possessed and that the guards were usually drunk and that it would be rather easy to obtain these weapons, that we were to go with Mr de Meillon.  I went to fetch Mr van Zyl and informed him of the situation and we departed with Mr de Meillon.

MR KOTZE: Did you know exactly what your destination would be?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Mr van Schalkwyk told us that the destination was a place in Pretoria which was being observed by the BWB and that they knew what was going on there.

ADV GCABASHE: Could I interrupt?  Sorry.  When Mr van Schalkwyk said Mr de Meillon knew where to find semi-automatic rifles, was this said in the presence of Mr de Meillon?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: He was there?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: Did you then arm yourself for this operation?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I didn't specifically arm myself, it was general AWB policy that at all times, in and outside town, we would carry firearms with us.

MR KOTZE: Did you then take a .38 revolver with you?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: And Mr van Zyl took a single barrel shotgun?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: And then you went with Mr van Zyl's vehicle in the direction of Pretoria?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct, Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: In Pretoria, how did it come that let's call it the first target was pointed out?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well I don't know Pretoria well and I don't know how the city's set up is, what the street layout is like and Mr de Meillon asked Mr van Zyl to go to, what's the street name, Vermeulen Street and we trailed up Vermeulen Street, we stopped next to the building there which is the military headquarters.  There were guards there and he wanted us to take away these guards' firearms from them and I asked him whether he was off his rocker when he wanted us to take away their firearms, I meant that I wouldn't do it and it was open, in the public, there were many people passing by, I was not prepared to get involved in a thing like that.

MR KOTZE: And how long did you spend in Pretoria before this planning was terminated?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well I didn't take notice of the time but it wasn't very long Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: Were any proposals made that the action would have to achieve propaganda value?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes, Mr de Meillon said so.

MR KOTZE: What was the idea?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That if we were to attack these guards and rob them of their firearms it would have propaganda value because we could say that the BWB had committed this and this would give us some influence.

MR KOTZE: Given the danger, would you prepared to try and obtain or achieve this propaganda value?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No Sir.

MR KOTZE: In the end then you departed from Pretoria?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct, we returned to Secunda.

MR KOTZE: And what happened on the way to Secunda?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Just after passing Delmas we stopped next to the road and Mr de Meillon said to us that we had to go via Devon because that was one of the targets that they had observed, that they had attended military camps in the past and he knew exactly what was going on in the bases and that we had to just stop there, when we passed there.

MR KOTZE: You heard his testimony today that he had only on a few occasions in Pretoria driven past the building and that it had been quite some time since he'd last been in Devon.  If it had been stated to you in those circumstances would you have been prepared to participate in this operation?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: Then in Devon, did Mr van Zyl remain behind in the vehicle?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes Sir.

MR KOTZE: What did Mr de Meillon tell you was the purpose of this visit to the base?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well Mr de Meillon said we had to pass there, go and see how many guards there were, what arms we could get there.

MR KOTZE: Were you prepared to go along with that?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOTZE: You and Mr de Meillon then put on your military browns?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: And you also pulled a vest over your head?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: What was the purpose behind that?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Chairperson, if you had undergone military training you would know that your skin is white and it would reflect very easily at night and that was simply to disguise my complexion.

MR KOTZE: So you believed that this would make you less obtrusive at night while you were reconnoitring this place?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: Was it indicated to you at any stage that the plan was that people were going to be shot or specifically the guards were going to be shot?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No.

MR KOTZE: If that had been disclosed to you what would your action have been?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I would not have gone along with the action.

MR KOTZE: And ultimately you arrived at the guardhouse.  At that stage who according to you occupied that base?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I believed that is was an airforce base according to what Mr de Meillon said.

MR KOTZE: And when you arrived at the guardhouse, what did you believe would transpire there?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I believed that we would take a look to see how many guards there were, so see if there were guards on the grounds and so forth.

MR KOTZE: And then depending upon whether or not they were there and whether or not they were awake, what would have happened?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I thought that we would have reconnoitred an arsenal which was familiar to Mr de Meillon perhaps for later action or if the opportunity presented itself and there was minimal risk, we would have stolen the weapons ourselves.