Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: I was just an ordinary member, I must say I wasa leader when coming to singing.

<UNKNOWN>: : What ngomas?

ANSWER: Ngomas are songs that we used to sing.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you regard yourself as a leader?

ANSWER: Yes when coming to music.

<UNKNOWN>: : But now I want to know when decisions weremade were you involved?

ANSWER: Because I was still young I was not involvedand I couldn't get a glimpse of what they were saying.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now there was evidence here that the policein some ways were related or they were on the side of the ThreeMillion when coming to conflict resolution there was such in evidence.  I now want to remind you about an incident that you might beable to recall where Sgt Oosthuizen said something to you, doyou remember that incident?

ANSWER: Yes I remember.

<UNKNOWN>: : When you met Sgt Oosthuizen where were you,where were you heading to?

ANSWER: We were members of Three Million, one of us hadbeen killed in the old location, he was Boetie Krag, we were goingto that area to revenge.   On our way we met this Oosthuizen inthe company of Piet Mahlonananie(?).   He stopped the kombi inwhich we were and he let us out and he let us lie on the flooron the ground, and he took our knives all of them and then hesaid to us where are you going to.   We told him that we weregoing to the old location because one of us had been killed.  Oosthuizen said to us we must stop killing the children, we mustface people like Dennis Bloem(?)...[interjections from audience]...

<UNKNOWN>: : Sorry interpreter please repeat that we didn'thear a thing.

ANSWER: We were then told not to concentrate on killingthe youth we have to kill people like Dennis Bloem.

<UNKNOWN>: : Let me then pass that one, were you also convictedfor other matters like crime?

ANSWER: Yes that's true.

<UNKNOWN>: : There was an incident where a prosecutor calledMrs Pienaar was told, do you remember the name?

ANSWER: Yes I remember the name but I don't understandactually what you want to say.

<UNKNOWN>: : There was a woman, a female prosecutor whowas working in this area do you remember that prosecutor?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : What can you tell us about what you know asto what kind of a relationship did she have with the Three Million?

ANSWER: There was no relation between us and herselfbut everytime she would remand our cases just like anybody else'scase.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you go to her house to paint?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : With whom were you there?

ANSWER: I can't remember well.

<UNKNOWN>: : But the people you were with were they membersof Three Million?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : She was brought chickens that were about tobe sold in the township?

ANSWER: She used to sell chicken in the township.

<UNKNOWN>: : When she came to sell the chicken where didshe take it to so that it can be sold?

ANSWER: She used to stop at Dwiti's(?) place just infront of the yard and people would come there to buy the chicken.

<UNKNOWN>: : Are you sure it was her?

ANSWER: Yes I am sure.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Taka did you attend any of the Three MillionGang meetings?

ANSWER: Are you referring to meetings, yes I used tobe present.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you ever see Mr Msibi(?) at any of yourmeetings?

ANSWER: Yes I once saw him.   (Tape switched off andon, disrupted questioning).    Meetings were held like this, onWednesdays there was a Sierra sedan from Welkom, white in colourdriven by the same person.

<UNKNOWN>: : In the meetings did he take any active role?

ANSWER: They were only bringing us bread that is theimportant part he took in our meetings.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...where the IFP membership cards given toyou?

ANSWER: I can't remember everything happened a long timeago.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you have your IFP membership card yourself?

ANSWER: Yes I had one.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did the Three Million Gang have a choir?

ANSWER: Yes during funerals we would have a choir.

<UNKNOWN>: : What sort of songs were you singing?

ANSWER: We were singing Gospel songs and hymns like anyother choir.

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you Mr Chairman no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
QUESTIONS BY MEMBER OF COMMISSION

<UNKNOWN>: : You said to Mr Mtsepe that the Three MillionGang conflicted with the ANC Youth League, you remember that?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know why?

ANSWER: No I don't.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who did you hear from that there was this conflict?

ANSWER: I used to see the fighting just going on.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you yourself involved in any such conflicts?

ANSWER: I was an informer but if we were, I would goto the fight I would feel scared and frightened.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did your role entail as an informer?

ANSWER: It was just to have a look at the attacks thatwere launched.  I used to stand at the corners to monitor theattack that would take place and I would go to them and tell them.

<UNKNOWN>: : Maybe you should give us some more details,concrete information about that.   Would you, I don't want toput words into your mouth I would like you yourself to tell ushow you would do that?

ANSWER: As I've already indicated I would stand at thecorner and then I would mark the corners where the enemies wouldappear from.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...that you are referring to?

ANSWER: I've already indicated that we were fightingwith the Canadians,  with the Witdoek and the third one I can'tremember and the ANC Organisation.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm restricting myself to the conflict betweenthe ANC Youth League and the Three Million Gang.   When you sayyou would inform are you saying that you would inform the ThreeMillion Gang about an imminent attack by the ANC Youth Leagueor would you inform the ANC Youth League about an imminent attackby the Three Million Gang?

ANSWER: I was telling the Three Millions that look youare going be attacked.

<UNKNOWN>: : How would you know that yourself?

ANSWER: I explained that I used to stand at the cornerand I would see when people come to attack.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...get that information possibly from membersof the ANC Youth League themselves and then go and leak it tothe Three Million Gang?

ANSWER: No I used to stay just there to watch for a possibleattack.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you at some stage a member of the ANCYouth League?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : How did it come about that you joined the ThreeMillion Gang?

ANSWER: The Three Million people arrived and they stayedin the township that I stay in.   I was still a student and thenI was chased at school, I was being told that I was a Three Millionmember.   Many people have been killed because they were regardedas Three Million because I was also scared to be killed, I decidedto stay at (indistinct).

<UNKNOWN>: : ...wanted to become a member of Three MillionGang?

ANSWER: Who are you referring to sir, who recruited me?

<UNKNOWN>: : I don't know I wish I knew that's why I'm askingyou because I want to know how you became a member of the ThreeMillion Gang.   How you left the ANC Youth League to become amember of the Three Million Gang.

ANSWER: I left it because I was told that I was a ThreeMillion member and I couldn't go to school anymore and I decidedto go and stay at (indistinct) not to attend school anymore.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who told you that you were a member of theThree Million Gang?

ANSWER: Many friends of mine at school.

<UNKNOWN>: : Not members of the gang themselves?

ANSWER: Which gang are you referring to, the Three MillionGang, yes some of them were telling me that I was a psycho(?)

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you a member of the Three Million Gangat the time that they said so?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : As a result of what they said you then eventuallydecided to become a member because of what they said?

ANSWER: Yes sir because I already bled.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who injured you?

ANSWER: Some of my friends at school.