Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MR NTSEBEZA: Now I think I would like to ask some of the very final questions.   Now was it ever your view that if you use force against the Witdoeke, in other words in an endeavour to prevent them, that that would have driven them berserk in which case they could have attacked innocent people in the nearby hostels or passing cars?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes it could be, that is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: That was your view?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: In what context.

MR NTSEBEZA: In the context of your not having been able to prevent the violence, that seemed to be the tenor of your evidence when you were being asked as to whether you could not have done anything to prevent the violence.  And it seems that one of the things you said was that if you had used force against the Witdoeke, and I am taking into account the numbers in which they were, your attitude comes out to have been that that act by yourselves would have driven them berserk and they would then have attacked innocent people in the nearby hostels.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct.  I just want to say on the 18th and 19th of February 1985 the Witdoeke they had information that they would be removed, the Administration Council said they would be moved, for three days they were attacking police, they were berserk, they threw petrol bombs at us, they shot at us, they put up road blockades with tree trunks, and then the Minister said, only then when the Minister said they will not be removed anymore, then only these fights stopped.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now did you - were there any helicopters that were used in this period of three days of fighting?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes helicopters were used.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you have any communications with them on the ground?  Were you in radio communication with the helicopters?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes we had radio communication with the helicopters.

MR NTSEBEZA: What was their role?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: They had to determine from up there where the problems were occurring.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now I would take it that after these three days, as operational head of the riot police in that area, you would have wanted to take stock and inventory of firearms and ammunition that was used in the - did you?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes that is correct.  I want to explain Madam Chair.  Where the police acted, where teargas was used or you used a shotgun immediately every vehicle had a person who kept records and then it was recorded how, what you used, whether you used birdshot or whatever.  So we have complete records of every kind of ammunition used.

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja, now yesterday there was evidence that Mr Ndima's house was used as a place where those who were fighting on the side of the Witdoeke could go and replenish ammunition, are you aware of this?  That was his own evidence yesterday.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No, I do not know anything about that.

MR NTSEBEZA: And he gave us to understand that there was no sort of ammunition that he did not have.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No I don't agree Mr Chairman.

MR NTSEBEZA: He testified that, again, it was Mr Barnard that had brought this ammunition to him.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Mr Chairman I do not have any knowledge of that.  I can tell you another story if you want to hear it.  After Mr Johnson Ngxobongwana became mayor, two, three years afterwards he came into conflict with one of his other council members, Nongwe, and they fought and Ngxobongwana was driven out of the area and they broke down his house and he's living in Sandrift at the moment.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, no, no, I think that is - what I am trying to get at is, whether in your ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me please be quiet.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: The point which I want to make ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: What's your point?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Is the people continued fighting with one another, they were always fighting and disagreeing.

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja well with respect it still doesn't have anything to do with what I have been asking.  What I wanted to know is whether when you were taking an inventory of ammunition and you found that there was ammunition which was unaccounted for because it was ammunition that had been given to Ndima in the manner in which he suggests by Barnard without authority?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No there was never such information.  All the ammunition we could account, all the ammunition which was used.

MR NTSEBEZA: Madam Chair I am through with this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Is there anyone who wants to ask a question?  Just one question Mr Odendal.  You mentioned that the Witdoeke were fighting because they were being killed, or you suggested that they were being killed and their houses had been burned, I just want to understand does that imply an understanding, on your part, and an allowing of the kind of fighting back by the Witdoeke and police?  Are you trying to say you understood why they were fighting back and so you kind-of accepted that it was necessary?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct.  The Comrades killed people.  I saw them in KTC in broad daylight.  We were riding around the roads, driving around the area and then you would see some smoke, coming there you would see a Black person who was dying, who was moaning and groaning, they've necklaced him, I saw that often.  Vehicles were attacked near Old Crossroads.  People were killed.  That is the reason why I thought that the Witdoeke were tired of their actions.
 And as I have said in KTC in January there were Witdoeke - videos are available, the old people, the Fathers from KTC became angry and they resisted their own people, Ngxobongwana in KTC, because their houses were torched, they were necklaced, they were attacked.  Videos are available.  Those people we warned, we talked to them.  Why would allow it that these old people be attacked so that the Witdoeke could come there(?) - (The interpretation does not make sense).  And if they say the police joined them do you think I would be so stupid to do that in broad daylight?  I won't do that, why?

CHAIRPERSON: But in a way you were also tired of the Comrades burning of people and burning of houses, it seems to me that you were also tired.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct, I was also tired.  But my job was I had to maintain law and order, there were many fights, there was lots of unrest in Crossroads.  We put up blockades in roads so that private vehicles could not pass there.  We did many things.  These people do not mention these things, like Mr Freeth.

CHAIRPERSON: So the Witdoeke in reality were really helping the police do their work?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No, I won't say that.  The Witdoeke were not against the police.  They were not hostile ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No I am not saying they were against, I am just saying they were helping the police do their work by attacking the Comrades who were destroying their community.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No I am not saying that, they did not assist the police.  The committed an offence.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they ever tried for the offences they committed?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Many people were arrested.  Who landed in courts I do not know.  Dockets were opened for the other cases.

CHAIRPERSON: I really am just wondering if perhaps the State did not, at the time, abdicate its responsibility of maintaining law and order in that area.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No, no I don't agree Madam Chair.  That morning we could have stopped them if we killed lots of people.  I did not want to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Dr Ramashala.