Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-06

MR POOE: I do not have questions for the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Pooe.  Mr Visser are you in a position to commence your cross-examination?

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman.  I may say that we would like to have had more time in order to be better prepared.  We have not found the time, unfortunately, to make copies of documents and prepare a bundle for the benefit of the Committee regarding a wealth of research documentation which there exists.
	More have we been able, Mr Chairman, in the time, to come to all of it, but we have given an undertaking and we will proceed with cross-examination as best we can Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Before we commence may I remind you Mr Ismail that you are still under former oath.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: Mr Ismail may I direct your attention first of all to the application which we find in volume 3 and I am particularly going to address your attention to page 3.  If you would perhaps just keep that ready in front of you.  Let me explain to you what my - sorry, my attorney says you wanted to ask something?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes Mr Chairperson I am afraid I do not see any page 3 here.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the page 3 written in large black number on the top, not the typed number?

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your volume paginated Mr Ismail?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.  Unfortunately I do not have a page 3.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not have a page 3, oh, okay.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Page 2 and a 4.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp do you have a spare copy of page 3 perhaps?

MR STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he should use Mr Steenkamp's rather.  Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Let me explain to you what my questions are going to be about Mr Ismail.  I am going to direct questions to you in regard to whether or not your application, which you now have before you, together with your evidence which you gave here complies with the requirements of the Act on Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation which is - we will refer to as the TRC Act.
	May I ask you first of all, when you completed and signed the application form which is before you now did you do so on your own or were you assisted by legal assistance in order to complete this form?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I was assisted, legally.

MR VISSER: And were the requirements of the TRC Act explained to you at the time?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now you see I find, with respect to you, your application somewhat confusing, and I am going to tell you why.  The paragraphs are not numbered but under the heading question 9 and 10 in that first paragraph you refer to a list of operations, of special operations which, and you use the words "are relevant to this application".  Do you see those words?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes I do.

MR VISSER: And the list which you refer to is the list, I take it, at page 11 to 19 of that same bundle. Will you just check if that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: I think your bundle might go to 18A.  Some are 19 and some are 18A.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Will you explain, please, what the use of the word "relevant" means there?  Does it mean that you intend to apply for all those incidents?  What does it mean when you say the incidents on that list are "relevant" to your application?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson what it means is that these are the kind of issues that the TRC would like to hear about, but at the same time I have stated that I apply for amnesty in terms of all acts.

MR VISSER: Do you mean to say in regard to all acts?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, you are not referring to statutes, referring to incidents?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: And those are the ones at pages 11 to 19?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes but these are the ones which we believe, or we thought the TRC may want to hear specifically on.  There may have been other incidents and acts which were not covered.  In my application I have also stated that I apply for amnesty for everything.  There may have been things that may have been left out, omitted at some point or the other, and that I am applying for amnesty for all things that were committed by me from the time when I was an instructor, from the time when I joined the ANC and MK to the time when we had the elections.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, I heard you give that evidence and I am really on a slightly different point right now.  We will certainly come to the issue of whether, of what you are really applying for.  What I just want to know from you, for the sake of clarity for myself and the Commission, I hope, is your reference in paragraph, in that first paragraph to volume 3 page 11 to 19 where you say it is "relevant" must I understand you now to say that they are not necessarily incidents in which you were involved or had anything to do with, but those are incidents which the Committee, you were informed that the Committee would want to hear evidence about?  Or am I misunderstanding you?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I was not informed Mr Chairperson that the Committee would want to hear any of these at that point.  It is what we envisaged and these lists are by and large the major actions that had been carried out and that I was aware of at the time.

MR VISSER: Yes.  In fact you've just mentioned a point which we can deal with immediately.  Am I correct in the assessment that the incidents which are certainly on the table here before this Committee now, the 13 incidents represent perhaps the most, if I may call it, "notorious" incidents of attacks by the ANC against the erstwhile government of the RSA?  Would that be broadly a correct statement to make?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well I do not agree with the use of the term "notorious" but if you know - those are the things that in the view of the TRC that is what it wishes to hear then....

MR VISSER: Yes I am talking about your views.  Do you agree that these are the most important incidents by and large in the history of the struggle or of the conflict of the past against, perpetrated against the erstwhile government of the Republic of South Africa?  Do you agree with that, by and large?  I am not talking about exceptions.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well in terms of the way the Act is formulated, yes.  But I believe that there are many other actions which are also very important which the Committee is not hearing which actually struck at the apartheid state.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Right.  If I may revert to my first question Mr Ismail and please you must tell me if I ask my questions in - too involved, then I will make them simpler.
	When you say the incidents at page 11 to 19 are relevant and you say you considered those incidents to be the incidents which the Committee would want to hear about my question is a very simple one, are you applying for amnesty in regard to each and every one of them?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, and others.

MR VISSER: And others.  Now the others that you mention are those the ones which you refer to at page 8 of the document in front of you?  I will give you ...(intervention)

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: What was that page number again?

MR VISSER: Page 8 of the same volume.  Mr Chairman I make it the second last paragraph.  Perhaps I shouldn't make a statement to you, perhaps I should ask you, you see at page 8 in the sixth paragraph from the top, or the second last paragraph from the bottom you refer to an annexure below, is that also intended to refer to pages 11 to 19, just so that we know what we are talking about?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Alright.  And isn't it also true that you referred to a list which is contained in the ANC submissions to the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC from page 72 onwards, that is Exhibit A - sorry I must tell you now Mr Chairman I am incredibly confused between Exhibits and Annexures, but I think it's Exhibit A2.1.