Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Yes sir.   When we got there Joe asked where Mohabi Dibali was and this girl said he wasn't there.   Joe suspected that he was there and he said that we should go into the house and we then went into the house looking for Mohabi Dibali inside this house.   When we entered one room, Joe said here he is hiding behind the wardrobe.   We found him and took him and Joe then said we want our money from him, he sort of made as if we were there to get some money from Mohabi, pretending as if he owed us money.   We took him and put him into the back seat and I cannot remember whether Joe got into the back seat with him or whether it was me.   As we pulled away in the car this girl came running out and I could see that she was going to other people not too far from the house.   We then left and we went to Roodepoort near the mines where we told we would meet Captain Coetzee and Vermeulen.   We then met them there and there was also a Captain Grobbelaar from Protea Security Branch.   From there we followed them until we got to Zeerust where we went to a house near a dam which was not occupied, together with Mohabi Dibali.   Before we went there, we had taken him out of the car so that Captain Coetzee and Grobbelaar could see the person whom we had just abducted by taking him out of the back seat of the car where we had put him.   They then advised us, instructed us to close up his face and also tie his hands behind his back and put him back into the back seat.   We then went, proceeded until we reached this house where he was questioned
4a	intensively /...
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intensively about his sister who was in Botswana.   Although I was not part of the team which was interrogating him, Joe was there because he knew his sister and he knew him as well and he could argue with him when he was saying something that Joe knew, which was in dispute with what Joe knew and Grobbelaar was also there and Vermeulen, as well as Jan Coetzee.   There was a time where he was assaulted and then taken outside and when he got outside, Captain Vermeulen would bring him so that we could also assault him and we'd assault him and hit him with fists and kicked him.   There was a stage where he lost consciousness and he was lying on the ground.   This happened the afternoon where we had abducted him and that evening, that night he was interrogated and he would answer questions in several ways and he was assaulted to such an extent that he was swollen.  The people that were assaulting him the most were myself, Joe Mamasela and Vermeulen.   Grobbelaar and Coetzee did not do anything.  The people who assaulted him the most were myself, Joe Mamasela and Vermeulen, we would kick him and hit him with fists and so on.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know whether the information that Captain Coetzee was after was then obtained from Mohabi Dibali?

ANSWER: Sir as time went by after this incident, if I remember correctly I can say that I was linking this incident in Gaberone because to me it seemed as though in order for us to have gone to Gaberone to this house, it was as a result of information which we had extracted from this person whom we had abducted.   When the time came for me to discuss this incident with Dirk Coetzee, it seemed that I had made a mistake in linking these two incidents because it was not so.
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<UNKNOWN>: Did you ever see Mohabi Dibali after this interrogation?

ANSWER: I last saw him in that house, I've never seen him since.  I then went to Vlakplaas where I had left him with Grobbelaar, Coetzee and Vermeulen and Joe and I went back to Vlakplaas and left him behind.

<UNKNOWN>: Was he alive when you last saw him?

ANSWER: He was still alive.

<UNKNOWN>: When you refer to Captain Coetzee in this regard are you referring to Captain Jan Coetzee?

ANSWER: Yes sir because there was a mistake made at some stage where I was saying Mr Dirk Coetzee stopped working in 1982 whereas it was in 1981.   Jan Coetzee, then Jan Coetzee came but he came while Coetzee was still there in 81 so there were two Coetzee's there at the same time and you know when one thinks back now you tend to mix the two up, you would be talking about Dirk Coetzee and actually be saying Jan Coetzee.   They would come to the farm while working at Krugersdorp.

<UNKNOWN>: Was Captain Jan Coetzee the head of the West Rand Security Branch at Krugersdorp at that stage?

ANSWER: I cannot say whether he was the commander but I know that he was working there and I know that he was involved with that branch.   I cannot say whether he was the commanding officer or if there was somebody in higher authority than he was.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you ever hear anything about the fact that you used your car with the correct number plates during the abduction?

ANSWER: Yes sir I heard when it was time for me to leave Vlakplaas when I got home, I heard from my mom that there
4a	were /...
MR DE WET-MARAIS	80	A NOFOMELA
were people who seemed to be police who were looking for me saying that I had abducted someone in Soweto.   I then reported that to Lt Vermeulen who instructed me to take my car to Vlakplaas until such time as it was safe to take it back and use it without any problems.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know how the police found you and the fact that you used your car?

ANSWER: Sir I would think that that girl that was running to the other house could have written down the number plate of my car and given it to the police and that is probably how the police knew where I lived.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you see this abduction and assault of Mohabi Dibali as part of your duties as a policeman at Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: Yes sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE WET-MARAIS

CHAIRPERSON: Was it part of your duties to concern yourself with what happened to the man after you interrogated him?

ANSWER: I do not understand your question correctly, do you mean by looking at him and noticing what condition he was in?

CHAIRPERSON: ...concerned yourself with what happens to him after you have finished interrogating him?

ANSWER: No that had nothing to do with me that was not my duty.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever enquire from your colleagues as to what happened to him?

ANSWER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: For all you know he may have been a perfectly innocent man.

ANSWER: The people who had instructed me would have known that I wouldn't have known that, I was merely following
4a	instructions /...
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instructions which I could not question.

JUDGE WILSON: You thought that they had killed him didn't you?

ANSWER: I did not think so even if I had thought so there was nobody that was going to do that.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: I mean that even though I might have thought that they would kill this person, there was nothing I would have been able to have done to have stopped something like that happening.

JUDGE WILSON: You say you didn't think they were going to, is that so?

ANSWER: I cannot remember thinking that.

JUDGE WILSON: What did you think had happened to him?

ANSWER: Since I was sent to abduct this person and take him from point A to point B, I merely assumed that they would see what they were going to do with him you know I did not know what they were going to do with him, whether they were going to kill him or not.

JUDGE WILSON: Didn't you think about it?

ANSWER: No I cannot remember thinking.

JUDGE WILSON: You see I'm looking at your application for amnesty and you were asked whether death, injuries and damage were suffered as a result of the kidnapping and assault and your reply was
"Dibali was injured during the interrogation and at the time I presumed that he was eventually killed."
Do you remember saying that in your application for amnesty?

ANSWER: Yes that he was injured as a result of the assaults I said that.
4a	JUDGE /...
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JUDGE WILSON: You presumed that he was eventually killed.