Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

CHAIRPERSON: Today is the 29th of September 1997.  For the record the panel of the Amnesty Committee hearing these applications consists of myself, Judge Ngoepe and to my right Adv De Jager SC, and to my left Adv Potgieter SC.
	Mr Brink would be leading evidence for the Committee and the various legal representatives will put themselves on record.  The applications to be heard are those of Eugene Alexander de Kock, 0066/96.  Daniel L. Snyman, 3766/96, Nicholas J. Janse van Rensburg, 3919/96, Gerhardus Jakobus Lotz, 3921/96, Jakobus Kok, 3811/96, A.L. du Toit, 3381/96, Nicholas Johannes Vermeulen, 4358/96, Marthinus D. Ras, 5183/97, Gideon Johannes Nieuwoudt, 3920/96.
	And gentlemen, who places themselves first on record, proceed.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, my surname is Hugo and I appear for Alexander de Kock.

UNKNOWN: May it please the Commission, Mr Chairman, Kobus Booyens, instructed by Van der Merwe and Bester.  I appear for the applicants Nicholas Janse van Rensburg, number 3, Gerhardus Jakobus Lotz, number 4, and Gideon Johannes Nieuwoudt, number 9.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I represent Daniel Lionel Snyman.  My surname is Lamey from the firm Ruth and Wessels and I am assisted by my colleague, Mr Rossouw.

ADV JANSEN: Mr Chairman, I am Adv Jansen, I am instructed by Attorney Julian Knight of Pretoria.  We act for Mr Marthinus Ras.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, Wim Cornelius.   I act for Nicholas Johannes Vermeulen from Cornelius Attorneys, Pretoria.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I am Adv Ford, instructed by Mr S. Gough of Rushmere (indistinct) Incorporated.  I represent the widows of two of the victims, Mrs Mgoduka and Mrs Faku.

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, the name is Kemp.  I appear on behalf of Mr Du Toit and Mr Kok, instructed by Mr Peet Pelser from Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: We have been told that one of the applicants, would that be Mr Nieuwoudt, is not feeling well and just briefly give the reasons so that they should appear on record.

UNKNOWN: That is correct Mr Chairman.  Mr Nieuwoudt is unwell.  A Doctor's certificate is available, but due to unforeseen circumstances, we didn't bring it along.  We will make it available to the Commission tomorrow.  We hope that he would be ready to proceed with his evidence by Wednesday, hopefully, perhaps tomorrow.
	I in fact intended to call him first, but this is one of those things that happened and although logically it would have been the ideal person to call first, because he gives the overall picture, nonetheless, I think I am satisfied, subject to my learned friends' attitudes, that we can proceed with the matter, although it might be slightly disjointed.
	I intend calling Mr Van Rensburg then as my first witness, and I think it has been more or less agreed between the various legal teams, that that would then be the next logical point to start, although not the most logical one.
	I ask that Mr Nieuwoudt be excused until he is well enough to attend these hearings again.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who would you like to be excused?

UNKNOWN: Nieuwoudt, Nieuwoudt, number 9.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.  Very well, we will proceed without him.  We hope he would be joining us very soon, as soon as possible and you are obviously appearing on his behalf and you have no problem if we proceed without him.

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chairman, we have taken full instructions in this matter.  I am satisfied that subject to something unforeseen happening in the evidence, which might necessitate consultation, we will be able to proceed.  Of course one cannot give a hundred percent guarantee in circumstances like that, but at this stage, I am instructed that we are ready to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, then let's proceed.

UNKNOWN: I call Mr Van Rensburg.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr Van Rensburg, you are an applicant for amnesty in this application and also other applications which do not form part of the subject matter of this application?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You have your amnesty application in front of you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you confirm the contents of the first page?  His evidence is at page 69 of the record Mr Chairman.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I confirm it.

UNKNOWN: As well as the second page, that is your history as a member of the Police?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: You give a very brief overview of you background, the things that you believed in and your political convictions and the government or political policy that you supported, that is on pages 2 and 3 of the application.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: As far as the offence or offences are concerned, for which you here apply for amnesty, you are applying for amnesty in connection with the death of Warrant Officer Glen Mgoduka, Sergeant Amos Faku, Sergeant Desmond Mapipa and Mr Xolile Sepa Sehati, also known as Charles Jack, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And you give the particulars regarding place and time of these offences?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You were not personally involved in the death of the deceased, however you fulfilled a liaison role?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: If we look at page 3, in 1989 you were stationed at the Security Headquarters and you were in command of Unit C10 which coordinated all the Security investigations in the Republic?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: You were also responsible for detentions in terms of security legislation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: And in November of 1989 the whole of C Section of the Security Police including Vlakplaas were placed  under your control and command?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Before you were transferred to Pretoria, you were stationed in Port Elizabeth at the Security Branch here?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you then in respect of the man who became at the end of 1989 the Commanding Officer of the PE Branch, Mr Gilbert, did you get to know him?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you recall that a couple of days before the Motherwell bomb incident, you received a phone call from Mr Gilbert?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gilbert is now deceased, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: This conversation is dealt with on the second paragraph of page 4 of your application.  The conversation was not a code conversation as such, but it was a conversation from which you drew certain inferences?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Would it be a correct summary of the situation to say that Gilbert told you about certain black members of the Branch had started working with friends, and that you concluded from that that he was trying to say that they were actually working with the ANC/SACP alliance?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did he further inform you, I am still referring to the telephone conversation, that there were serious consideration given to this matter and that it was decided that a plan should be made with the people in your terms, that they should be eliminated?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did Gilbert give any indication that he had been given authority from higher up for this operation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, he did.

UNKNOWN: What were his words in this connection?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I can remember these were words to the effect that he had been given the okay from above.

UNKNOWN: This conversation took place on an open line?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: So you didn't discuss details?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, we didn't.