Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: What's important to me is that I'm mentioning these names in front of the Committee and the people, and most of them are still alive and they are not the applicants.  I didn't remember them yesterday, but I remember them today and I'm revealing them.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu you heard yesterday it was said that there were 11 women in Boipatong who were either raped or sexually assaulted during this attack.  What is your comment on that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: My comment is the raping of women during war or in a time of peace, it's not acceptable in a community and we should try by all means that something is done about it.  Secondly I would like to mention that the two sides are responsible of the outcome of the incidents because such things should not have happened.  I will refer you to one lady by the name of Masabata from Sharpeville who was seriously or extensively raped, her muscles cut, a bottle inserted in her vagina - only because she was an IFP member.  This is a very bad habit and I don't condone it, I mean the raping of women.

MR BERGER: Are you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer then to the question that Mr Burger is putting?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: The people who did that, I would say I personally it was a very bad thing.  Even if the situation of war where we're fighting, I don't believe that it's a proper thing to do if you are fighting and you as an individual have the power to go around and rape women.

MS SIGODI: Mr Tshabangu I think what we'd like to know is, do you know - did you see it happening, or did you not see it happening?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I never see it.

MR BERGER: Did you not hear the day after or the days following the attack, some of your comrades bragging about what they had done to the women of Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that you were not party to any discussion, you did not overhear any discussion where the rapes and sexual attacks on women of Boipatong was even mentioned?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Are you also saying that those people who carried out these rapes and sexual attacks were acting in revenge for similar attacks on women who were IFP members?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair.  Sir I do not have any questions, but I would like - it's been brought to my attention that the question of rape and sexual was not put to the first applicant Mr Victor Mthembu.  The reason for that is that these facts were only brought to our attention after the first hearing.  On the 25 of July Ms Nomsa Mgele and myself consulted with a woman in the community and took instructions on this point, and it was only at that time that we got instructions in regard to these facts.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, just a few questions.
	Mr Tshabangu you heard Mr Khanyile testify that the splitting into two by the group that left kwaMadala Hostel was spontaneous and it happened when the group was chasing the SDU members who ran into two different directions.  And your evidence is that the splitting into two groups took place before you entered Boipatong when you stopped at that tree marked "K" on Exhibit M1, is that so?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes that's correct.

MR MALINDI: Is Mr Khanyile wrong in this respect?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I explained that we tried to divide in two groups but we ended up proceeding towards the same direction on Mshweshwe Street.  So maybe in that way Khanyile is correct.

MR MALINDI: Mr Tshabangu you could not be right because you say specifically that at the tree you stopped, broke into two groups, which even though walked along Mshweshwe but were distinct groups.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I was answering with reference to direction.  You said others went through Legwa and others proceeded down on Mshweshwe Street.

MR MALINDI: And then you testified further that once your group had followed - started following the Legwa route you split into further smaller groups, is that so?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Do you know who gave orders for the splitting into these further smaller groups?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No, what happened is, when we entered along Legwa, it's when we were following these people running away, and people started running into different directions.  That's what I was trying to explain Sir.

MR MALINDI: Were these smaller groups distinguishable groups, or were they sort of haphazard groups?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Sir I would say there were two entities as groups, or I would say we were distinguishable because we were wearing red bands - white bands.

MR MALINDI: Mr Tshabangu what I would like to suggest to you, is that the deliberate splitting under that tree marked "K" on Exhibit M1 and the further splitting into smaller groups once your group had entered Legwa Street, suggests some form of detailed planning of this attack.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't think so.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Tshabangu the house that you entered and damaged property, where were the occupants of that house at that time?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't know, there was nobody inside when I arrived, but it was clear that people had been in the house because goods were destroyed and the curtains were not in order.

MR PRIOR: Given your evidence that you wanted to kill as many people as possible, what was stopping you entering more houses than the one you entered?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I was discouraged by the weapon that I had because I couldn't use it quickly and effectively, the way I wanted to.

MR PRIOR: Was that the only reason why you never entered more homes?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: And also because I could be identified in some of the houses.

MR PRIOR: I don't understand because your intention was to kill those people, so whether they identified you or not, you were going to kill them.  What difference did it make?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I knew that with a stick I couldn't effectively hit some and kill, but with a firearm I can shoot a particular area and be sure that the person is dead.

MR PRIOR: Just to turn to the AK47's.  At the stadium they were laid out and people were asked who wanted to use them, and they could select and take them.  Is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Was there any control that qualified persons, in other words persons who knew how to handle those firearms, in fact took the AK47's, and not people who had no experience with weapons?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't know because when I came back from fetching my stick, I found that all the firearms were already taken away.  Whether the people were able to use them or not I can't comment.

MR PRIOR: At the time, we have got information, that the Vaal Commando was doing a two month camp in the area Vanderbijl, and I'm not talking about the 17th of June, the night of the massacre, but before - a week, two weeks.  Was it the custom of the Commando to patrol the streets of Vanderbijlpark inclusive of Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes I used to see them Sir.

MR PRIOR: And they would go into Boipatong patrolling up and down the streets that we've seen on the sketch and of the township Exhibit J?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes they also patrolled Boipatong.

MR PRIOR: There's just two last aspects, the one deals with the destroyed property.  You said in your evidence earlier that Themba Xhosa arrived - was it the next day, the 18th of June, with a high ranking policeman and he asked or addressed the residents saying that you should all assist the police in their investigations, is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.