Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: A typical co-ordination meeting or conference could let's say be staff problems of the region or of the organisation in the area, a typical weekly co-ordination could be the budget that would be needed from the budget that I know was available for a specific region to be able to improve buildings a another example could be and then I may have warned the Chairperson that we will have to listen to one or two plans and then the Chairperson would sit and I would move out of my chair and he would sit where the Chairperson is sitting now and then I would move to another chair and I would put up a board and I would say that this is what the plan looks like and I see to it that the co-ordinator of the region or the region itself comes and presents the plan.  It could have been any other thing, security problems for that day.

MR LAX: Okay, so in essence you would have included the Chairperson then of your committee, of your structure in the sorts of things you would expect somebody in that structure to be involved in so that if there was for example ultimately the presentation of say the Early Learning Centre project, ultimately a similar kind of presentation that was made to you as Managing Director would have then been made to Gen Webb?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.

MR LAX: If I can just add, with whatever refinements you had recommended between the level as you saw it as it was presented to you and as you thought that would be necessary for him to approve it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, but I just want to add this, the region did not necessarily come to me and it depended on the sensitivity, I would go to the region, I get the same example, would be presented to me and then I will say to them wait a minute I will return to you and then there are many connotations of how it could happen and what I wanted to say is that in the heat of the moment other ways could have been seen to do it, that it could have been done quicker as part of another project or in comparison to a similar project.  There were, if I can just illustrate it with an example, there were circumstances of an infiltration, let's say of a bakkie with limpet mines on it that came via Zimbabwe to Botswana into South Africa and the vehicle was on it's way and this procedure would then not happen and then it would be, we spoke about Region 1, there is a budget for Region 1, the vehicle is on it's way can we please continue?  This would be telephonically and under those circumstances it would be presented by means of a process that covers a year.

MR LAX: I'm with you but in all these three cases that are before us there weren't such cases, they were cases where we've heard that in each case the matter was prepared, a pre-study was done, then a presentation was done, then you recommended it upwards?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was presented to me and the dispute is about the exact method and the circumstances but that it happened between myself and the General.

MR LAX: That's precisely the next question.  What is your recollection of how you obtained authorisation for those projects?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: My recollection is as I have said, that on occasion one of these submissions I had discussed it with the Chairperson and that I had told him that or at least had said this is what it was about.  I could not have done it in any other manner because I would not have been able to obtain financing, I could not obtain any equipment because it would not come from my structure it would come from the general structure and I where I think the dispute is and I will admit to it, I signed many documents where there was a position of trust between myself and the general, the previous one and Gen Webb and I would say I shall do it in the same manner and I sign it and I think that is where the dispute lies, that is how I recall it and I recall that in all these instances I did discuss it as such, whether there was a misunderstanding I do not know but I discussed it on this basis because I could not get any money, I could not get any equipment, I could not get any other items if I did not do it.

MR LAX: You certainly wouldn't have been able to obtain a radio controlled limpet mine through the normal channels?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It comes from a storeroom that belongs to the general structure where I cannot get to.

MR LAX: Would he have arranged that for you or would he have given instructions for that to happen?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I would not want to say that it happened in these circumstances but it happened many a time because I, only I, spoke to the Chairperson, the Chairperson does not bring his logistical person there and his intelligence persons there because I could not meet with them so in many instances and right now, I cannot confirm it, I said we need money or we need a pistol or we need this, that or the other and this is conveyed verbally through the staff general.

MR LAX: I mean the same would apply just to a silenced Makarov for example, it's not exactly your average firearm that you can get hold of that easily?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I can only come from the formal structures.

MR LAX: Now your co-ordination meetings with your actual co-ordinator, Mr Basson, what did those entail because again you haven't given us any specifics?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Once again I think the Co-ordinators probably had the most difficult task in the system because he was just about a runner between myself and the region, he had to ensure that the logistical things and finances and everything else run according to procedure, he was the runner between myself and the Regional Manager, he would have to convey message to say that I cannot come today, I can only come later or look at this, look at that, be careful of this, be certain that this is correct and that project, why is it going so slowly?  He was my only liaison, the co-ordinator.  I maybe incorrect in saying this but the Regional Manager could contact me but the only management liaison with that region was the co-ordinator.

MR LAX: Yes, certainly if I read some of the affidavits and statements in this documentation in many instances you gave directions through others?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I want to just turn, yesterday when you were being confronted with issues arising in this Mostert statement and your testimony before the Harms Commission and so on, you gave an answer which struck me as slightly unusual.  You said for technical reasons you would have framed it in that way rather than in the direct truth, if I could put it that way.  What did you mean by the use of the term technical reasons?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I'm not certain now, if you can give me some direction I do not remember now?

MR LAX: Well let me take you back, I made a note of the reference.

MS COLERIDGE: Page 79, bundle B, paragraph 51.

MR LAX: It was in relation to paragraph 51, that's correct.  I just want to get the page in my notes so I'm absolutely clear on it.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I shall try to answer that.

MR LAX: Yes?