Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Won't you turn the page away from the headline?  Firstly, you state there - in the second paragraph - that Mrs Mandela ordered you to remove the body of the murdered ...[inaudible] activist Stompie Seipei from her home and quote "Dump the dog" unquote, is this true?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, it is true.

MR VALLY: Secondly, immediately thereafter you say: "She was not in Brandfort on December the 29th 1988 when Stompie and three other youths were assaulted in a back room of her house in Diepkloof but was present and led the assault on them", is that true?

INTERPRETER: The speaker is too fast, the interpreter cannot keep pace.

MR VALLY: I beg you pardon, I'm reading too fast. Let me slow down.  In the second paragraph of the article, you say: "She was not in Brandfort on December the 29th, 1988 when Stompie and three other youths were assaulted in the back room of her house in Diepkloof, Soweto" ...[intervention]

JOHN MORGAN: She was at home.

MR VALLY: "But was present and led the assault on them". Do you confirm that this is the truth?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I do remember all this and it's true.

MR VALLY: In court, there was a statement that you made to the police ...[inaudible] the statement in court saying that it was given by you under duress and it was incorrect.  In this article ... [intervention]

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that was not true, it was a blatant lie.

MR VALLY: Did you decide to lie on your own?  Were you asked to lie?

JOHN MORGAN: I was not asked to lie. I told myself.

MR VALLY: Let me very briefly tell you what you initially said in the statement to the police which you now tell us is the truth, and this is a statement that you say you - did you make it freely and voluntarily?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR VALLY: You weren't under any pressure whatsoever by the police?

JOHN MORGAN: No.

MR VALLY: And you say it is all true and correct?  Do you say it is true and correct, this statement?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR VALLY: And then when you said in court that the statement was not true because it had been forced out of you, that was a lie?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that is so.

MR VALLY: I've only got a summary of the statement but you say you drove four people to the Methodist Church, the Manse, in Soweto?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us who these people were?

JOHN MORGAN: It was Megwe, I don't remember the other three but I know them when I see them - I can identify them when I see them in person.

MR VALLY: My question is - first, we're going to the Manse now, we're not coming from the Manse. You drove four people to the church house, the Manse, do you remember who you went with to the Manse?

JOHN MORGAN: I wouldn't remember because there were so many comrades, it was not only one comrade, but there were so many of them - there were so many of her boys.  Even her herself - if she was in my age, will she remember all of that?  ... [inaudible] of age, do you expect a man like me to remember what happened at the back?

MR VALLY: Do you remember who asked you to drive to the Manse?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, Richardson asked me and I went back to my employer to ask if it was true what I was supposed to do, and she confirmed it, and she said yes.   I took the minibus and I drove through.

MR VALLY: Was Richardson with you?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, Richardson was with me, and some other boys.

MR VALLY: Do you know why you were going to the Manse?

JOHN MORGAN: She had said we should go fetch the boys only. I was doing as instructed.

MR VALLY: Do you know why you had to fetch the boys?

JOHN MORGAN: I do not know.  The reason was to fetch those boys only. I did not even get out from the car and pull them outside from the house into - from the church into the car, I did not do any of that, I was just in the car.

MR VALLY: Were there any women with you in the bus?

JOHN MORGAN: There were only two of them, Xoliswa Falati and Nompumelelo, Xoliswa's daughter.

MR VALLY: Was Katiza Cebekhulu with you?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, he was present as well.

MR VALLY: Was Slash with you?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR VALLY: Was Killer with you?

JOHN MORGAN: By the way, who is Killer?  There were so many of them - I don't remember, I don't have a clear recollection of those boys.  The fact is I will never be able to remember so much when she is not in a position to remember that much.

MR VALLY: You say you stayed in the bus when you arrived at the Methodist Manse.  Did everyone else go inside?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, everybody went inside. I was the only one left in the bus.

MR VALLY: How long were they inside the Manse before they came out?

JOHN MORGAN: Approximately 5 minutes.

MR VALLY: How many youths did they come out with?  The people whom you took there - Richardson was there ... [intervention]

JOHN MORGAN: There were four.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] If you can remember who these people were that were brought back with you?

JOHN MORGAN: I remember Megwe.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible]

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, he was there.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible]

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, he was there amongst the other boys.

MR VALLY: Was Mono with?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, he was there as well.  You see, if you remind me I'm in a position to remember.

MR VALLY: What did you do?  You then said that you drove back to the house ... [intervention]

JOHN MORGAN: I did nothing as they were busy toyi-toyiing, Richardson said: "Leave, we are done", and I drove back to Diepkloof and I parked the bus at the back, and they got inside in the back room and I found them already in the room.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible]  room?

JOHN MORGAN: That's where I got inside and Winnie was already there.  And Richardson said to me: "You cannot occupy that seat", and I said: "I will definitely occupy this seat" - she is the one who is supposed to respect me as I'm older than her.  And the assaults started and Stompie was the one who was slapped first.

MR VALLY: Who slapped Stompie first?

JOHN MORGAN: Mrs Mandela did that - Winifred Nomzamo Mandela.

MR VALLY: Do you know the names of anyone else who took part in the assaults on the four youths?

JOHN MORGAN: I have said that, I keep saying this repeatedly - I keep saying repeatedly that Xoliswa Falati, Nompumelelo, Katiza, Richardson  - he was the lord, he was the king, and some others.  And they would throw these boys up in the air and let go of them and so they could come and bounce back on the floor.  And after all that, I asked for the keys so I could drive back home, and when she left that room into the main house, I followed her and I got the keys, and I left. I am not telling lies, by the way. She also knows it very well that I'm not lying.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] How long did they last?

JOHN MORGAN: I left even before the assault was over or stopped.

MR VALLY: How long were you there for?

JOHN MORGAN: I was there for about a half an hour.

MR VALLY: In your article you said that the evidence given at the trial by Gazi and Mono was largely correct, do you still maintain that?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.  You were referring to me or to those two?

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] in the article you said that the evidence given by those two - that is Tebiso Mono and Kenny Gaze - was largely correct. The word you used was: "essentially correct".

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, it was true.

MR VALLY: I want to quote to you what you said in the article: "The boys were sitting outside. Stompie's face was like a pumpkin, and his hands were so swollen that he could not lift a cup of coffee.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that is true.

MR VALLY: Do you still remember this?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I do remember that.

MR VALLY: Was this what you saw the next day when you returned after you left the first day?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I saw that the next day.

MR VALLY: Do you know if Mrs Mandela would have seen this?  Would Mrs Mandela have seen Stompie's condition?

JOHN MORGAN: She's the one who saw that, and she even asked me to try and feed him.