Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MR LAX: Yes, but what is being put to you is something subtly different, and perhaps I could put it in a different way.  What you are being asked is are you able, looking at these measurements, of these garments, to give us any indication, assuming you didn't know anything about the person who may have worn these three dresses, are you able to tell us just from these measurements alone, what the person's height might have been, what their weight, mass, may have been, things of that descriptive ideas as to that person's appearance?  Is that what you are trying to get?

MR VISSER: Yes, except that I specifically didn't ask about height.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR VISSER: I am talking about size.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that is girth.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Look, for me, on those clothes, because they are not fitted, if it was fitted and darted maybe one could, but as it stands with these, with the styling of the dresses, in my opinion, I am not able to do that.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: To say exactly, what the person physically, actually looked like.

MR VISSER: Yes, well, that is the only point I was actually putting to you, that is precisely the point I was putting to you, thank you.
	Now, coming to the belt, on what basis do you say that there was shrinkage of that belt?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, if you look at the belt as it is today and, the first thing is trying to flatten it out to do a proper measurement, I was unable to do that because of the warpage, it is not only warped in the length, it is also warped like this.  It is, one cannot actually get an actual measurement.
	I was also actually trying to pull it, get somebody to hold the other end, to try and straighten it, it was starting to break, because it is very fragile, it is perishing.

MR VISSER: On what basis can you state that one should add two to three centimetres because of the condition of the belt?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, it is not, I cannot state that.

MR VISSER: But you did?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I said that you could add to it, because of the warpage.  I think if you calculated it, that most definitely with the warpage, that is the exact measurement as it stands, it doesn't have a buckle on it, so one cannot actually even get the waist, the measure of how it is going to go around because the buckle no longer exists.
	The other thing is that, as I have explained to you, that it is warped.  Warpage, with warpage, it most definitely would be longer, it is not going to be shorter.

MR VISSER: Did you measure it on 89 cm?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I measured it on 89 cm.

MR VISSER: Did you take the trouble of trying to measure it by assuming a buckle to be present to the point where the buckle marks are in the belt?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, the buckle marks, I think, are also misleading, because of the tarnishing and that.  You can more or less see where the hole was, but the size of the buckle is not necessarily the size that is shown, because when something rusts, it will spread a round a lot.
	The point is, the belt as it stands now, is warped and unless you actually get it flattened out, there is also, I am not an expert on the material that I can say to you now that there could not have been any shrinkage, there could have been dramatic shrinkage.  I am sorry, I cannot answer that.

MR VISSER: On a plastic belt, is that your experience?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, plastic does perish and plastic does change and warp.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: It does not stay the same forever.

MR VISSER: Yes, and plastic can also stretch?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: It can also stretch.  In fact it would probably have been better when it was new, in terms of the stretchability, which is lost completely.  There is no elasticity, which is why it is now wanting to break and perish when you pull it.

MR VISSER: If one assumes, if one assumes the waist measurement that you have here of 102, 104, 104 again to be the actual waist measurement of the person that wore it, that would make a difference of 21 cm that that belt would have had to be longer for her to w ear it, do you agree?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I think I clearly stated that this measure was not in fact, the 102 waist is not the measurement of the person, because of the styling, it is a blouson style, which means it is elasticised.
	I think that is what I said right from the beginning, it is absolutely crucial that that measurement, it could have been much larger, the dress measurement than the actual size because of the style.

MR VISSER: Just listen to the question now, please.   If one assumes that the actual waist measurement of the person wearing the dress, was in fact this measurement, I am putting a simple proposition to you, then the difference would have been, that the belt would have had to be 21 cm longer to skirt her waist, would you agree with that?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, I still cannot see how you can say that the person is 102 cm?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that is a question of ...

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I am not understanding it.

CHAIRPERSON: It is just a question of arithmetic.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Look, I am saying that, of course 89 cm, I can see that is different to 102 and that there is a discrepancy there in the centimetreage which would be normal, considering if your dress is a blouson style with an elasticised waist, is going to be pulled in.  It is not abnormal to have a dress that is wider, and a belt that pulls it in.  That is not abnormal at all.

MR VISSER: Madam, what were you told about this case, when you were asked to come and give evidence?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Absolutely nothing.  I was asked to come and measure dresses.

MR VISSER: Who contacted you?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I was contacted by Debra Quinn.

MR VISSER: Do you know her?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: Well?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Yes, I know her, not in a professional way.

MR VISSER: As a friend?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: We don't work together.

MR VISSER: As a friend?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: As a friend, yes.

MR VISSER: For how long?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Oh, for it must be about eight years.

MR VISSER: Yes, and she told you nothing about why you had to come and give evidence?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: She said to me there was a discrepancy about clothing, and could I come and do measurements.  I asked her what was required and she said to me, can I please come and what was required was to ascertain whether the dresses would have fitted the same person, and whether, what the measurements were of the dresses.

MR VISSER: Yes.   Well, we know that you cannot tell us really anything about the size of the person that wore the dresses, we have passed that point.
	I am just now on the belt.  Let me ask you this question as a general question, would you expect a person wearing approximately a 42 dress, normally speaking, an African woman, Swazi woman, that her waist would be girded by a 79 cm belt?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I find it interesting that you refer to race on this issue, because I think it is particularly in African, South African woman that I know, that is the disproportion in their bodies, compared to Western women.  The disproportion, the figures we work on when we cut patterns, are geared towards Western women where that disproportion is not that big.
	I think by measuring Lynn and Thabisa, it is exactly that that is pointed out.  You can look at them, that the proportions of their waists are much smaller, it is very small compared to the hips and the bust size.

MR VISSER: So you say you would expect that ...

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I wouldn't find it surprising at all.  I wouldn't find it surprising because of the styling of the dress.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: It is a blouson dress.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, that word keeps coming up, bluezon?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Blouson.

CHAIRPERSON: Blouson.