Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR BLACK: If you look at page 66 of that document, you go on, and you were found guilty and that's a fact, that you were found guilty of murder, attempted murder and two counts of attempted robbery.
	You go on in paragraph 3.7 of that document, you say that during the course of the events at the Giwi Breyten Compound you didn't shoot, you didn't fire any shots.

L P MBOKANE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Who did the shooting there from as far as your group was concerned?

L P MBOKANE: It was my Commander, Mzwandile Gushu.

MR BLACK: It's been explained to you now that because you were part of that group which resulted in the death of Mr de Bruyn, you are also guilty of murder of Mr de Bruyn, do you understand that?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I do understand.

MR BLACK: Do you accept the responsibility that you are guilty of the murder of Mr de Bruyn?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I do accept that.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Black, just a moment.
	Why did you not also shoot at these people?

L P MBOKANE: When Mzwandile arrived, took the gun and started shooting.  My gun was still in the holster and I realised that the other one had already fallen or had died.  The other one had disappeared, so I could not continue shooting because our enemies, the other one was out of sight and the other one was already down on the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have shot if you had an opportunity?

L P MBOKANE: Probably so.

MR BLACK: Now when you went to the Giwi Breyten Compound, can you tell, did you go there for personal reasons or personal gain?

L P MBOKANE: No, that is not so.

MR BLACK: Can you tell the Committee why you went there?

L P MBOKANE: The reason was to go and retrieve some firearms so as to protect the community at Embalentle because we did not have any guns as well as ammunition because they would be confiscated by the police and given to the enemies, so we decided to go there and get some guns in order to be able to protect the community. Our aims were not to kill people, our aim was to take the guns forcefully.

MR BLACK: Did you go there on your own accord?  In other words, did you yourself decided to go there?

L P MBOKANE: No, I did not go on my own accord, I had received an instruction from my commander to do so.

MR BLACK: Now if we speed things up a little bit, you were convicted in the High Court, you stood trial, do you recall that?  And you were convicted.

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I do.

MR BLACK: And at the trial your were represented by, your legal representative was what they called a pro deo counsel, an advocate appointed by the state, according to you.

L P MBOKANE: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And to give the Committee a complete picture, you were convicted as a result and only on the evidence relating to a pointing out.

L P MBOKANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: And from the papers which we've got before us it appears that you did tell the Judge that you were tortured and forced to make these pointing outs.

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I did.

MR BLACK: Now the torturing which you referred to earlier, did that take place before or after the pointing outs?

L P MBOKANE: Before the pointing out.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, it had to if it was a result of torture that he made the pointing out, isn't it?

MR BLACK: No, I'm just referring to the specific torturing at the Loskop Dam, whether that took place before or after.
	And the words which were written down and were handed up to court as part of the pointing out statements, were those your words which appeared on the pointing out statement which was handed up to court?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, the words were mine.

MR BLACK: That appeared on the pointing out statement that was handed up to court?

L P MBOKANE: Are you referring to the words or the names?  That is, my personal names or the words?

MR BLACK: I'm referring to the statements which were written down on the pointing out statement which was then handed up to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You remember you made pointings out?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And I assume there were certain explanations that you gave when you made certain pointings out, correct?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Now your advocate is referring to those explanations.

L P MBOKANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: Now when you pointed out, something was written down by the people accompanying you at the pointing out, is that so?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, that is correct

MR BLACK: Now, what was written down there as an explanation, were they your words, did they come from you or from, what were they?

L P MBOKANE: These were my own words, they came from me but not voluntarily.  I was actually forced to say certain things.

MR BLACK: Okay.  To wind up, you confirmed you are applying for amnesty in respect of the murder of Mr de Bruyn, the attempted on Mr Fourie and the two counts of attempted robbery for which you received a conviction.

L P MBOKANE: That is so.

MR BLACK: Thank you, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

MR KEMP: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I do not represent anyone with regard to this incident ...[indistinct], however I would just briefly like to put a few questions with regard to the reconnaissance actions that they took and what they found with regard to the Black Chain or the Black Cats, and the preparations to be made for an attack on the Mandela Squatter Camp because that in fact forms part of the background of events that took place at the time in this area.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the purpose of the questions?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, the motives and reasons for killing people who were pertinently members of the Black Cats gangs, victims Obed and Chris Ngwenya and Zwane, they were killed for a reason, decision were made to kill them because of the violent, their violent behaviour.
	Now this evidence of training of Black Cat members at this institution and allegations that planning was made for an attack on the Mandela Squatter Camp, I would suggest also forms part of the general suggestion that the members or the people referred, the reasons for them being killed was that they were part of this violent behaviour during this period and in this area.

CHAIRPERSON: Your question assumes that it's possible that he's going to say that he knows who had been trained, namely Mr Ngwenya and others?

MR HATTINGH: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And if he says he doesn't know then that would be the end of the issues?

MR HATTINGH: I merely would wish to make inquiries with regard to what he found on visiting the compound and the involvement of the IFP members and the Black Cats.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  I'm just concerned about the relevance of it, so let's see how you go about it.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mbokane, just to clarify the issue of your going on a reconnaissance mission to the Giwi Breyten on the days preceding the actual events for which you make application for amnesty, as I understand your evidence you went there but you did not get access to the terrain itself, is that correct?

L P MBOKANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And the only people you saw there with arms were the security guards, is that correct, at the gate?

L P MBOKANE: I saw the security guards at the gate but there were people who were getting into the compound but  I did not see what they were carrying.

MR HATTINGH: On what do you base the allegation that Black Cats, members of the Black Cats organisation as well as members of the IFP were being trained there and that they were planning an attack on the Mandela Squatter Camp?  On what do you base those allegations?

L P MBOKANE: We had already heard from one of the members within our self-defence units.