Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1997-02-10

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: I didn't get those details because though they were saying that his case was going to sit in Port Elizabeth, we were given the dates, but they said me and my husband were going to be given train tickets.  The people who would be transported in vans, would be the people who would be testifying, the people who would be witnesses.
 What I said, the very same people who took my child, they must also bring him again and I am not going to take a train, I am also going to take a van, because my son was taken in a van, so I am also going to take the same van.
 We got into the van and we went to Port Elizabeth.  I don't know what is it that they said, because they didn't ask anything, they didn't mention any attorney.  This is where I learnt that the courts are full of corruption, because there are children who weren't there who were witnesses.
 Those who would be testifying against us, they had a 
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right to be protected.  We were told that the case was closed.  We didn't hear anything, they didn't ask us anything as the parents, they didn't even attempt to get the teachers who were teaching my child at school and get evidence that my child was attending school.  They just discussed alone with Fishart.
 Even Fishart was not given any information.

UNKNOWN: Was Fishart there?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: Yes, he arrived during the court's proceedings.

UNKNOWN: Lastly you have told us that your child was operated without your permission.  Who was that Doctor, do you know him?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: Even the Doctor, we didn't know anything about him, because even the Death Certificate was not available, so he was just buried like a dog, because I was deprived of my rights.

UNKNOWN: Did you get the Death Certificate later on?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: No.  I once tried to get a Death Certificate, but the Secretary, the clerk told me that I was supposed to get a document that should be sent to Pretoria and I must pay R10-00 for it.  Because in that document it is written that Rocky James was dead and he was buried, there was nothing else.

UNKNOWN: The last question, your request, or the wish that you have that you would like to tell the Commission, what is it?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: What I would like to request is that the Commission, as I am now the only person who is alive, I don't have a husband, the Commission should see how it could help me.
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UNKNOWN: You have told us about your illness, can you tell us more about it?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: I am undergoing treatment because I am sick.  There is no other way that I can help myself.  It is just that sometimes  the groceries of my children is missing and I bought the groceries, and I put it in the transport, but when I went home, there was nothing.  I don't even know what happened.
 I didn't have the groceries with me, I don't even know what kind of transport I used from town to home, but one child that I am staying with, he said that I came and I asked for water to drink some tablets, and I said to him if somebody is looking for me, he must just say I am not around.
 And I went into my bedroom and I locked my bedroom and I slept there.  I remembered when the school children came home in the afternoon and they asked me did you go to buy any groceries, I said yes.  They asked where was the groceries, I said just look in the house, it is there.
 And the other child told them that I didn't come with any groceries.  And what is actually wrong with me, is that I have a heart problem and high blood and nerves.   If I happen to get those attacks at the same time, my mind is not working, so I just decide to go and sleep.

UNKNOWN: So you are trying to tell us that you need some help so that you can get medical treatment?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: Yes, if it is possible to get one, I would appreciate it.

UNKNOWN: Is there anything that you would like to add?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: There is nothing more.  This is the end of my story.  There is nothing that I would like to take into my
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hands, as this happened, I knew that my God is alive.  All my problems, I should just give them to Him, there is nothing else that I am prepared to do because in some of the problems, I would like God to see to it, how He can help me.

UNKNOWN: I am going to hand over to Mr Chairperson, maybe he might have some other questions.

BONGANI FINCA: Reverend Xundu?

REV XUNDU: Mrs James, I want to know about your son, if he had a child or not?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: He didn't have a child at the time.

REV XUNDU: Who was the District Surgeon at the time?  There is usually a Government Doctor, called a District Surgeon, do you know that District Surgeon?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: No, I don't know him.

REV XUNDU: Do you know the Doctors here in Cradock who were there at the time?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: I know some of them, I've forgotten some of them.

REV XUNDU: Did you see Xolile after this incident, except the day that you went to tell him about the inyanga?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: Yes, I saw Xolile after that.  He was mentally disturbed.  After that, I didn't see him again.  I once saw him while his Sergeant called me, I was on my way from the hospital, his Sergeant called me.
 He said I must tell him so that he can apologise because when Xolile was retrenched, even his clothes were taken, even his uniform was taken and he was not given a chance to go and wash them, so I heard that he was once there.  His mother approached me because he wanted to apologise. 
 What I said to his mother, I said I can't say anything 
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about Rocky, because it is not mine any more, because it was the devil, it was the police, it was Rocky and God was waiting to welcome Xolile's soul.  So I won't be there, I can't say anything about Xolile.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Mrs James, here I have your statement, your written statement.  I notice that there are things that you didn't mention during your testimony, therefor I would like to ask you a few questions with the aim of getting clarity.
 Let us start about Mr Xolile Dosini, was this Xolile Dosini a Municipal Police?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: Yes.

MR SANDI: Did the Municipal Police have a good relationship with the community?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: Yes, they had a good relationship.

MR SANDI: I noticed in your statement that you said that you heard that your son and the others who were arrested with him, were taken to the office of Black Local Authority, do you mean the Municipal offices?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: Yes.

MR SANDI: Where did you get that information?

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: The other children that he was with, were in that office, all of them.  When I moved from my house, I didn't go straight to town, I went to the Municipal offices.  When I arrived there, Xolile was scrubbing the floors where my son's blood was.

MR SANDI: What is it that they are saying, what happened in there, what did they tell you happened before Rocky was killed?
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NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: It is only Xolile who was there.  The Sergeant who was with him, was not around at that time.  While they were assaulting, they said he left, he was not there while they were assaulting them.

MR SANDI: Didn't you say that one policeman came to the cells and said Rocky must go out and run away and when he was trying to run away, they shot him.

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: No, I didn't say that.  He was not in the cells, Rocky was not in the cells, he was in the Municipal offices, he was killed in those offices.

MR SANDI: At school, are there any complaints or troubles that were there that were caused by Rocky as students?