Special Hearings — Legal Hearings — 1997-10-27

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, Mr Majola. Hanif?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Majola. I just want to ask you to just have your revised version of your paper, the one you submitted is very different, but it is not a problem. Let us have it, please.

BONGANI MAJOLA: Yes, I don't think it's a different paper. We have submitted two. After we have submitted the first submission, we were asked then to deal specifically with this issue. So this is an additional submission, which we're doing on request of the Commission.

MR VALLY: Fair enough. Mr Majola, I just want to ask you some very brief questions during the time involved. I think the cases you cited which had an impact in the influx control laws had an impact on the lives of millions and millions of people and certainly deserve praise, however though, the one issue that interests me, as is quoted by Judge Olivier in his submission to us, previously what the Government merely did was change the rules. I quote
"Judges were faced by wily adversities in the form of Governmental legal draughtsmen who assiduously closed every gap, loophole or ambiguity in the apartheid legislation."
Why do you think that the Government did not do this in terms of these judgments that were successfully brought or won by the LRC?

BONGANI MAJOLA: Well, I wouldn't want to give credit to the LRC for that. I think that at the time these judgments were obtained already. There was so much opposition to apartheid. There were other organisations that were fighting apartheid at a political level, but more than that I think that the world community had been enforced to take a greater interest in South Africa and was monitoring it.
South Africa had an image problem which it wanted to try and portray as being a clean image problem. It would have been difficult for it to maintain, to keep on maintaining that problem when it came back behind its judiciary and closing those gaps very overtly. Of course I think that it did in some instances, but I think that that may have been the problem, that, you know, it had to do that balancing act, but I don't think it was because of any action on the part of the LRC.

MR VALLY: The next issue I wanted to raise with you is your complaint about your AGM being bugged and you stated that you believed that it was done allegedly with the knowledge of the hotel management. Just a comment. This is the same institution where the judges annually have their judges' conference under the auspices of sector for applied legal studies of the University of the Witwatersrand. Is this the same place?

BONGANI MAJOLA: No, I don't know.

MR VALLY: We had different information, but ... (intervention).
(MUMBLING IN BACKGROUND - NOT INTO MIKE - NOT AUDIBLE)

MR VALLY: ... we'll note that - it will come up later on again, because there was one this year. (mumbling) Mr Hodes ... (intervention).

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Hodes, I think that - thank you.

MR VALLY: You had your chance, Mr Hodes and you were wrong then. Let's go on. I want to ask you this question about the attitude of donors who maintained that in view of the fact that we have a democratic system in South Africa, that there is no need to fund agencies such as the Legal Resources Centre who tried to uphold the constitutional rights of the citizens of South Africa. What's your reaction to that?

BONGANI MAJOLA: My reaction to that is that of course they are wrong. I think they are taking a very simplistic approach to the problem in South Africa. Apartheid went on for a long, long time. The constitution and the election of a democratic Government has not wiped out the consequences of apartheid. We still need NGO's like ours to kind of do a certain role to sweep away the adversities of apartheid, but we're looking ahead. We need to create a situation where what happened under apartheid did not - does not happen again.
 It is therefore necessary for organisations such as Lawyers for Human Rights, LRC, BLA, NADEL and others to make a contribution in the development of a legal system of a constitutional system that is compatible with human rights.
Business cannot do that. Government, as I already said, is busy with governing, they cannot do that and these are best placed to do it. I think for that reason it is a wrong conclusion on the part of donors.

MR VALLY: Thank you very much Mr Majola.

YASMINE SOOKA: Any questions? Thank you, Mr Majola. I think the Commission is certainly - has recognised the role that the LRC has played during the ...(tape side A ends)

YASMINE SOOKA: ... the remaining three presentations to see if we can try and shift some of them over onto tomorrow so that we can actually just deal with the comment on today's hearings. So, a five minute body break.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

YASMINE SOOKA: I'm going to ask you to introduce your students and then we'll just ask them to take the oath.

UNKNOWN: The students that are going to be presenting today are students of the University of Natal who serve at the campus law clinic of the University of Natal.  These submissions are part of a project that they've been doing within the hospices for our adman-justice and juvenile-justice units.
 They themselves will be doing the presentations. They will introduce themselves as they present the different components. You will notice that they really are only focusing on small pieces and are quite satisfied that the big picture had been created and established by many of the other institutions like NADEL and BLA that have represented.
 So, I'll just start by introducing Gomotso whose going to be the first person to speak and I will be helping in fielding questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. Could you - you can sit. If you could just state your full names for the record, please?

GOMOTSO GAILI: My name is Gomotso Gaili.

YASMINE SOOKA: Are you going to take the oath or do you want to take the affirmation?

GOMOTSO GAILI: The oath.

GOMOTSO GAILI: (Duly sworn states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. You may be seated.

ABEL BOESAK: My name is Albert Boesak.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. If you would also just stand, please.

ABEL BOESAK: (Duly sworn states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. You may be seated. I think that perhaps I should swear you all in at one time. If you could just, yes, if you could just give me your full names, please. If you could move from the left-hand side, please. Just press the button.

MS TEREMEDO: I'm Koneshe Teremedo.

MS MOODLEY: I'm Desree Moodley.

MR BROWN: I'm Lehani Brown.

MR CHETTY: I'm Seves Chetty.

KONESHE TEREMEDO DESREE MOODLEY LEHANI BROWN SEVES CHETTY LICHI NAGALA: I'm Lichi Nagala.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

KONESHE TEREMEDO DESREE MOODLEY LEHANI BROWN SEVES CHETTY LICHI NAGALA: (Duly sworn in, states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. You may be seated.