Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Barnard said that an in-house was held concerning the operation or project, information that he collected over a period of time and that he conveyed to Mr Verster, as well as his Co-ordinator, Mr Lafras Luitingh, who was unknown to me, who handled him or who served as his Co-ordinator, and he presented the project to Mr Verster and Mr Verster basically gave him the approval with regard to the execution of the project.

MR VAN ECK: Did the name Lafras Luitingh ring any bells?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: You said that it was a person that was unknown to you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did you receive information that Lafras Luitingh was also involved in the CCB?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Barnard presented him as his Co-ordinator, he could have used the word handler, but it's got basically the same profile.

MR VAN ECK: You cannot specifically recall the exact words?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I cannot.

MR VAN ECK: Did you deem it necessary Mr Botha, to question that which you were involved in with Mr Barnard, to take this up with people in your region?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I could not because it was against the rules and with the activities of the CCB, which I accepted, and we also had a very unique situation between myself and Mr Barnard and it would have been impossible to share this with my region or with my cell members.

MR VAN ECK: Would you, for example, have mentioned it to Burger or Basson?  What do you think their reaction would be?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It would not have been a very good reaction.  I think it's an understatement if I put it that way.  It would have led to my immediate dismissal.

MR VAN ECK: What do you think would be the results or the consequences if the operation was executed in the elimination of Dr Webster and if you've mentioned this to Dr Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well they would have suspended the operation or the project.

MR VAN ECK: What did you do in terms of the execution of this project of Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well generally Mr Barnard and myself monitored or visited Dr Webster's house.  I think it was three or four times, I would say it was four times.  We monitored movements and to see if he appeared and certain opportunities, I think it was the 1st of May 1989 Mr Barnard came to pick me up at my residence in a white vehicle and we again followed the normal routine to the monitoring of the house and the observation that took place there and on that specific day Dr Webster drove past us in a white pick-up or bakkie and Mr Barnard felt that this was the ideal moment to execute the project and he continued and eliminated the person with a sawed-off shotgun.  I acted as the driver of the vehicle and that was in general my participation in the project.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Botha we have heard the evidence of how Mr Barnard went to go and practice with somebody else's shotgun were you involved in that preparation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I wasn't.

MR VAN ECK: Were you involved in the preparation of the shotgun?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I wasn't.

MR VAN ECK: Every time when you went to go and observe the house were you ready, if the opportunity comes up to execute this operation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes we were prepared and ready every single time we went.

MR VAN ECK: Did you make use of balaclavas?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes it was in the vehicle.  During the execution of the operation we also covered our faces with it.

MR VAN ECK: Was there any other opportunity in which Mr Barnard could shoot Dr Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not what I know of, not where I accompanied him.  I did hear that he did observe the house at other times but not when I was with there.

MR VAN ECK: With Brenda for example.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

MR VAN ECK: Were you involved in the writing down of the details?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.  In short it was his project.  I assisted him as a confidante if I can explain it in that way.

MR VAN ECK: After the shooting of Dr Webster were you dropped off at your house and Mr Barnard left with the evidence, do you know what happened to it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir, he just said that he broke the shotgun into pieces.  I also again did not question his integrity or in terms of what he told me.  Once again we had this trust between the two of us but I would doubt that he held the weapon at his house, for example.

MR VAN ECK: On that specific day there was a lady with Dr Webster, did you see her?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Barnard told us what his initial attitude was towards this Commission, how he approached this Commission, and his initial attitude was that he is here but he will not cooperate.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.  People who know Mr Barnard will know that he's a difficult person to get along with.  He's a difficult witness and he is also a person who has got a history as far back as his first detention that he never implicated anybody else.

MR VAN ECK: The reason why I am asking you this is that Mr Barnard explained to us that why at the previous sitting he systematically started changing his attitude towards the Commission to the approach and sympathy that came especially from Mrs Omar and that this resulted into a change of mind and on which he then decided to take this Commission into his confidence.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I was party to this and I did observe it and was part of it, that is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Right.  It is common cause and I will ask you on this a bit later and certainly you will be asked by other parties concerning this, you were asked about why you denied any participation in the Webster murder.  It was put to you that you made a statement to the Attorney General, Mr Pretorius, which included your involvement in the Webster murder.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: More-or-less when was this?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was in February last year.

MR VAN ECK: 1999?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VAN ECK: In other words it was a long time before Mr Barnard had a change of heart with regards to admitting to the murder of Dr Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, yes.  As Mr Barnard testified I visit him on a regular basis in C-Max in Pretoria and at a certain stage I had a conversation in which I told him at a certain stage he will have to draw a line.  I am part of the reconciliation process.  At the end of the day, apart from the deeds that we committed I also have a conscience and I just want to clear my conscience, and I was approached by the Attorney General, Mr Pretorius, and I told him this is what I feel.  I want to do this.  And he supported me.  And he also said to me that he was not going to open his heart, if I can put it that way, but this is my right to do what I want to, and that is what I then did.

MR VAN ECK: Up to the time when you made contact with Mr Pretorius was Mr du Plessis your legal representative?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: This is now from the beginning of the CCB and the revelations that happened throughout this process?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: During that process while you spoke to Mr Pretorius were you still with Mr du Plessis, as a client of his?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes Sir.  Just before I made a statement I felt that because of ethical reasons it would not be correct to place his integrity in doubt, there would be a clash of interests, I then decided to get a different legal team to represent me.

MR VAN ECK: Is it correct that when you changed your legal team you did not inform Mr du Plessis what the reason was?  You did not disclose the Webster incident to him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I did not.

MR VAN ECK: Is there a reason for this?