Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not know them.

MR HUGO: One of them, was this not the same person that you met at Barkley East when you came down initially?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: To me even the one we met at Barkley East I had not even got used to his face. It was a very short time that I met him. It could have been that he was part of that too but I cannot be certain about that because I saw him only for one day.

MR HUGO: When you said that Bra Mos gave them a report as to what happened could you hear what he was telling them?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I could not hear what they were saying because I was inside the car.

MR HUGO: Did Bra Mos just tell you that he reported to them?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: He told us when he came back that he did make an effort.

MR HUGO: Now Mr Shabalala I just want you to go back to page - it is actually it starts at page 61 of the bundle of documents. Now I am not going to ask you about the contents of this particular document to try and discredit your credibility but I think this document is extremely important. Would you agree that it appears to be a warning statement taken by a certain Colonel E Willy? Do you agree with that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The statement I made at Nxala is not here.

MR HUGO: No, no all that I want to know is do you agree with the statement that this appears to be a warning statement taken by Colonel E Willy on the face of it extensively so?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can only say I do not know anything about this statement. He may have made this statement. I can see it but I do not know anything about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabalala we know that your evidence is that you do not know this statement. What counsel is asking you is if you look at this document which commences at page 61 and runs through to page 65 it appears that it is a warning statement. But that is not to say that you made it. But if one looks at it, it appears that it is a warning statement. If you read it. You do know what is a warning statement do you or do you not? Where a person who is suspected of having committed a crime is warned that he is not obliged to make any statement and whatever he says that may be held against him. Do you know that warning?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I know a warning.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you look at the first page particular page 61 does that not look to you like a warning statement?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes it is a warning statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR HUGO: Now Mr Shabalala maybe I must put it to you what I am going to argue at a later stage and you will understand what we are trying to get at. I am going to argue that this warning statement is a very clear indication of a huge cover-up that took place between the security police of the Transkei and the South African security police and that in this statement facts are contained that could not have been gleaned from you and that could only have come from very close co-operation on a very high level between the Transkeian security police maybe politicians and the South African security police. Do you understand what I am going to argue in respect of this statement?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I hear that.

MR HUGO: Therefore it is important for me to just go through this statement so that we can see which of the facts contained in this statement are fabrications and which ones are in fact true. Now you will see on page 61, right at the top they have got your names there; Mbuso Enock Shabalala. That is correct isn't it?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR HUGO: Your race is Zulu. That is also correct isn't it so?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR HUGO: The residential address is given as Umtata police camp. That is not correct at all isn't it?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes. No it cannot be true.

MR HUGO: Your business employment address is given as the security branch Umtata. You have never been a member of the security branch in Umtata. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No it is not true.

MR HUGO: Well are you saying it is not true in a sense that you haven't been a member of the security branch in Umtata?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I never was.

MR HUGO: Your occupation is given as a special constable. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No it is not true.

MR HUGO: And what I am really interested in is the identity number there 1/5597435/3. Is that your correct identity number?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: This identity seems to be the one I was referring to as the one that I used to hold in my initial past.

MR HUGO: So somebody must have had access to your file to at least obtain the correct information pertaining to your correct identity number. Is that not so?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I would say it can be true because I can see it.

MR HUGO: So now if we just proceed. Then it says
"I have been informed by a Colonel E Willy."
Have you ever met a person by the name of Colonel E Willy?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I do not know this one.

MR HUGO: And then it goes further and it says
"He is investigating an allegation of a description place, etc and then he says murder at Nxala on the 24th of September 1985 at eleven p.m."
Did the incident happen at eleven p.m. on the 24th?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I don't understand.

MALE SPEAKER 1: Through you Mr Chairperson. The time is eleven a.m.

MR HUGO: I am sorry Mr Chairman did I say eleven p.m.? Sorry I beg your pardon. Eleven a.m. Was it eleven 'o clock in the morning?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When this matter occurred?

MR HUGO: When Mr Ndondo was killed yes. What was the time when he was killed?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It could have been about nine or ten. If I am not mistaken. As I have said in my statement.

MR HUGO: And then you will see right at the bottom it says: "Received by me Umtata. The date the 3rd of October 1985." And this certain Mr Willy had the audacity to sign this document. Do you see that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I see that.

MR HUGO: Now if you will just go back to page 50 of the bundle of documents right at the bottom. Let me read it to you. This is one of your affidavits and you say there
"At the end of that month,"
that is now obviously September,
"we returned to Vlakplaas."
Was that indeed correct? Did you go back to Vlakplaas at the end of September?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes we returned to Vlakplaas. It is correct.

MR HUGO: So you could not have given this statement in Umtata to this Colonel Willy on the 3rd of October 1985. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes correct.

MR HUGO: Now will you please turn to page 62. Mr Chairman unfortunately I have to go through this thing. I will try and do it as quickly as possible but I do think this is extremely important. But I will try and go through it as quickly as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed.

MR HUGO: Mr Shabalala you will se there the first paragraph says again
"I am a special constable in the Transkeian police attached to the security police and stationed at Umtata."
This is a lie isn't it so?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I do not know about this.

MR HUGO: Then it says that you handed yourself over to the South African Police at Ermelo and you were released during January 1982. That is more or less correct isn't it?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Then it says, which is very important.
"I was then employed by the Transkeian Police to assist them in combating and investigating the activities of the ANC in the Republic of Transkei."
This is a blatant lie isn't it so?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No it is not true.

MR HUGO: Then it says in the next paragraph
"On Thursday the 19th of September 1985 at approximately 13h00 you and Constable Mos and an informer was on duty at Nqgobo."
This is also a lie isn't it?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I don't know about this.