Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I want to know what he felt like shooting my brother and why is he saying or whoever is saying it - maybe the three I don't know I haven't heard, why my brother shot back at them - that's what I want to hear, that's why I'm here today. Up until that time that I heard these statements I wasn't interested in coming here because like you say justice had been done, this is not a court hearing.  I wasn't interested in coming here until I heard these lies.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Are you saying he's lying?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, I'm saying he's lying?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now you tell me, why would he be lying if he's admitted shooting your brother?  What has he got to gain by lying?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: He's admitted, he hasn't lied about shooting my brother, he's lying about my brother shooting at him or having a weapon or pointing it at him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: We'll deal with that but in that situation your brother had something in his hand - you've showed it to us, he may have been under the impression that your brother was shooting at him.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: So, if somebody's holding a bag you normally shoot at him?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I'm just asking the question.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I'm saying he may have been under that impression, do you agree with that - in that situation that he was in?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I don't know, I'm still dumbfounded why he shot at my brother.  In fact at why he shot at all of us, I could have taken the bullet, Benny my waiter could have taken, Michael the other waiter could have taken the bullet and I could have taken the bullet but it so happens that my brother took the bullet.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.  Now just to get back to an understanding of what this process is about, are you also saying that if you come here and you hear why they shot your brother - what motivated them to shoot your brother, that you would then be satisfied?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sorry, could you repeat that please?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Would you be satisfied if you came here and heard from them directly who shot your brother, why they shot your brother and so on, that you would then be satisfied?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I'm satisfied with who shot my brother because the courts have found him guilty, what I'm not satisfied with Sir is that why he's saying that my brother was shooting back at him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That's what I'm not satisfied about.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So if you get a plausible explanation about why he thinks your brother shot back at him, would you then be satisfied with that explanation?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I might change my mind.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You might change your mind?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: If it's explained to me, yes I might Sir.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now tell me, would you change your mind about your opposition to this amnesty application?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I beg your pardon?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Are you saying that you would consider then changing your mind whether they should be granted amnesty or not?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I'd consider but it ...[indistinct] hearing what they have to say.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, just to get back to this process, you know that this process results from an Act of Parliament, our new Parliament?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, Sir.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And you are a law abiding citizen?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I am, I'd like to think so, I might have skipped a couple of robots or not stopped at a stop street but other than that ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.  Now, you know there are certain requirements for the applicants to meet and to satisfy before they are granted amnesty?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sure.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know what they are?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I don't know.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You don't know?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, if I tell you that not one of those requirements has got anything to do with justice, would you be surprised to hear that?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I probably would be, yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now I'm telling you that it's got nothing to do with justice as you understand it.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Okay.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, if there's such a law which allows for the applicants to be granted amnesty which has got nothing to do or very little to do with justice, would you be prepared to live by a decision of this Committee which says: "Okay, you can now - as you put it, go and walk the streets"?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I'd have to live by it Sir, I'd have to live by that and I'll probably change my mind once I've heard what is to be said.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That's why I'm here today, I'm here to hear the reason why he says and why is the perception like you said, of why - because he had something in his hand, why he got shot at?  Why does the man think because he had something in his hand he was shooting at him - if he was shooting at him?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is there any reason why you weren't here from the beginning?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, because I wanted to get it over and done with, I didn't want to - it disrupted my whole life completely, my family life.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Because it's a ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: My parents' lives and all our lives, his wife, his children -  the business went to pieces because of this, we wanted to forget it.  Once we heard that they had been charged the family was quite happy, up until now when I heard about what was being said and I decided how can this be?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Would you accept that lots and lots of people, tens of thousands if not millions of people in this country have been shot and killed and tortured ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sir, I understand that, we're dealing with my brother at the moment.

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, no, can we finish?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I'm dealing with my brother.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, we're going to deal with your brother.  Do you accept that lots of people, many thousands of people have been shot and killed and maimed and tortured and raped - Black people in this country, do you accept that as a fact?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I accept that, I accept that White people, Coloured people, Indian people have been shot and raped and maimed and bombs have been planted - not only Black people, White people, Black people.  That's besides the point, my whole thing is that I came here today is to hear why these gentlemen are saying that my brother shot at them.  I'm not interested who's got shot and who that, I fell sorry for them and I understand that a lot of people did and a lot of bad things were done but this is not what the whole point is about - why I came here, why I came here today.

NORMAN ARENDSE: But unfortunately Mr Cerqueira, what I want you to agree with me or you can disagree, is that the amnesty process is about healing all that, it's not just about your brother, I can't agree with you that this process is just about your brother. It's - we all obviously know that other people had been killed in this incident, other people had been injured in this incident, Mr Cornelius, Mr January and other people had been killed.
	It's not just about your brother, it's about trying to get to grips with understanding why all these people including your brother and other hundreds and thousands of people have been killed, injured, maimed.  Isn't that what this is about?