Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: May it please you Mr Chairman, I beg leave to call the next applicant, Mr J.J. Mabena.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, exactly what does Mr Mabena apply for?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, basically this applicant seeks amnesty for the fact that he was asked for advice regarding the violence in the area.  Part of his advice consisted of telling them to set up Self Defence Units firstly.

CHAIRPERSON: With I assume, a lawful intention on his part?

MR PATEL: I don't think it could be lawful because setting up Self Defence Units at the time, or even now, wouldn't be a lawful activity.

CHAIRPERSON: What law does it violate?  I believe for some reason or other there is thousands of what they call Neighbourhood Watches, that can't certainly be regarded as unlawful?

ADV SANDI: Self Preservation Mr Patel, sorry, isn't that the first law of nature?

MR PATEL: It most certainly is sir.  The point of fact here is the following, we know that the Self Defence Units in the area, did illegal things.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that now.  You say that he gave advice on establishing Self Defence Units.  I am asking you whether when he did give the advice of establishing Self Defence Units, were those Self Defence Units suggested to conduct as far as he was concerned, lawful actions or did he envisage what eventually happened when he gave the advice?

MR PATEL: I think the latter is more appropriate.

CHAIRPERSON: What exactly, which crimes?   The problem I do have at this stage and I am not stuck with that decision, I must add, is that it is precedent to which I am not bound, it indicates that you can't get blanket amnesty, but only in respect of specific events, crimes committed.
	Hence I ask the question because I see in your schedule, I think it is on page 20, the proposed witness applies for complicity to commit acts of violence against third force elements in general.
	This does give me problems because at the end of the time, if we are inclined to grant amnesty, then - or refuse amnesty, then we must to it in respect of particular acts, particular crimes.  In other words there is no such thing as granting amnesty for crimes you may have committed.  The order can't read that way.

MR PATEL: I think the way it is set out in the schedule, is probably too broad.  I think ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, wouldn't you like to skip this witness then and give you an opportunity to set about restoring the obvious problems and when the opportunity arises, to put him on the stand as it were, and indicate to us all exactly what he is applying for.  That is a mere suggestion unless you feel confident of handling it now.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman, I think I will take your advice and proceed on that basis.

CHAIRPERSON: When you do so, I don't know when you are going to be ready to recall him, would you give the other representatives an indication.  I don't think it is going to have any effect time wise on their preparation, because I am sure they prepared in whatever way necessary on the events that he made mention, unless you are going to get a new event out of him, I am not too sure.
	In that case, then he can stand down and you can proceed with the next witness.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS STANDS DOWN