Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was in about 1993, around February, I am not sure of the date.  I was in my cell and somebody just came and called names from a list and said that we should go downstairs.
	You never get information in prison, you only get orders about where to go or what to do.  This man is a policeman, just came into the cell and called out names from the list, and my name was also on the list.
	We went downstairs where we were required.  On arrival, I found a lot of other people there.  A certain gentleman in a suit came.  It was a white person and other people who were with him, African people.
	They talked to us one by one.  They also called me.  I was asked for my name.  They also asked where I was employed before and I told them.  This person told me that he was an attorney and he wanted information about what happened at the trial so that he would go to Pretoria and seek amnesty on my behalf.
	I asked him about this because I had not requested an attorney.  I then told him that I do not know who he is or where he comes from, but if he is willing to act for me to seek amnesty, I can explain what happened, or how I got involved.
	He asked me a few questions which I cannot remember, and thereafter he dismissed me.  I then left, that was the only time that I spoke to him and I never saw him again.
	I did not really find this strange, because in prison, you are normally called sometimes and do whatever you are required to do.  I think that maybe that is how this statement came about.  That was the time that I saw this person.
	I never heard anything from him again.  I did not worry because I had not actually requested any assistance from an attorney.  That is how I think that statement came about.  It is not easy for me to say that I do not know or that I do know.  I am just speculating on how it came about, but I was not aware of its existence.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you never sign a document?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No, I don't remember signing anything.

MS THABETE: Can I interfere Mr Chairman.  Before we make a ruling, you make a ruling whether the statement is admissible or not, can I consult the Investigator who investigated this matter, just to find out how the statement came about?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we can do, you can perhaps do that during the tea interval.  I won't make a ruling at this stage as to whether it is admissible or not.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much.  Now is it your submission to this Honourable members of the Committee that your acts were politically motivated and that you have made a full disclosure of what happened on that day and of what motivated you to commit this act?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Right, there are people who are concerned, the family members of the people that were killed and injured, do you have a word for them?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, even though I do not know them, but if they are present, there is something that I would like to say to them.
	I also have relatives, family members therefore I know how it feels to lose a loved one.

MR NGUBANE: What is it that you would like to say to them?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: To them, I will say what happened was not meant to actually remove their loved ones from them.  Their loved ones were my colleagues who did the same job as I did.
	And the job was dangerous.  You are exposed to danger at any time.  Their loved ones did not have any idea of what was going to happen.  They were taken by surprise, they were also doing their job.  I would like to apologise to them for what happened because we did not mean to kill or to injure anyone.
	Because even when we were still planning this, we emphasised that we should not attack or kill anyone but because things did not go according to plan, the situation compelled us to do what happened.
	When the gun was pointed at the policeman, he then turned and wanted to shoot.  In actual fact, we had not planned and we did not mean to kill or injure anyone, it was not part of the plan.  Therefore I would like to express my apology to them, even though I did not fire a weapon myself, but I was part of the group that actually was responsible for the death of their loved ones, therefore I pass my apologies.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman and Honourable members of the Committee, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MS THABETE: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do, can I proceed?  Mr Hlengwa, you say because of the situation that was happening at kwaMashu where you were living, you decided to assist the ANC, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: Who were the SDU's here, can you briefly tell us what the structure of the SDU in your area was like?  Who was the Commander in charge of these boys that you decided to help?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I would not be in a position to say that, because as I explained before, this was not a formal structure that was formally established, where positions were allocated to persons.
	That formation happened or was there because of the political situation in the area, and my involvement was that ...

MS THABETE: So would it be correct to say there wasn't a proper structure where these ANC boys were working under, would it be correct for me to say that?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: That is correct.  There was no organised structure.

MS THABETE: Now tell me, when you decided to assist them, did you take it upon yourself maybe to discuss it with anybody senior in the ANC, how you could go about assisting them since you were so concerned about the situation?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No one in a senior position, I was not close to the ANC leadership.  Because I was a policeman, the people who were close to me and people who trusted me, were the ones that I worked with as a member of the kwaZulu police.
	I would not be in good terms with the ANC leadership as such, but because the community members knew me, I grew up in the area, I went to school there, so they know that I was not in the Force to attack or victimise them, but I was there for the sake of the job.  They knew that I sympathised with them.

MS THABETE: Thank you.  I get your point.  Are you saying to me you never discussed with anybody how you were going to go about assisting the ANC, yes or no?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: With regard to the people in my area, no.  I only discussed it with the people who were my colleagues.
	Such information could not be divulged easily because it was sensitive.

MS THABETE: Okay, when you were discussing it with your fellow colleagues, what were your options, I mean you must have discussed options, besides going to a pension pay out, what options did you discuss?

MR LAX: Sorry before you go any further, which colleagues did he discuss this with?  If you can just clarify that and then move on to the options.

MS THABETE: Can you answer that question, which colleagues did you discuss it with?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: The people with whom I have been convicted, Dlamini, the co-applicants Dlamini and Mdluli.

MS THABETE: Can you clarify something for me and the Committee members, initially when Mr Ngubane, your lawyer counted the people who were co-perpetrators with you, he mentioned the name of Mdluli, Mbele, Thembe and Dlamini and you said two people were arrested by mistake.
	Who were those people?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Mbele and Thembe were arrested by mistake.  They were not involved in the crime.  I can explain how they were arrested.

MS THABETE: No, I don't want you to explain.  I don't know whether I am correct, I just heard you saying the colleagues you discussed the plan with, were Mbele and Mhluli, am I wrong?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was Dlamini and Mhluli.

MS THABETE: All right, thank you.  So, what options did you discuss besides going to rob a pension pay out?