Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-27

MR WILLS: Yes, but other than that - and obviously that is your sister in the photograph.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: That's my sister.

MR WILLS: Now this Figure 27, can you throw any light on this photograph as to when it was possibly taken?  This is the photograph, Mr Chairman, of the deceased sitting on a bed.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: This photograph was also taken when I had left the country and it's after the birth of her child, when she was breastfeeding.

MR WILLS: Now what makes you say that?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I'm saying this because my elder sister, the one who is still alive at this point, Gugu, was still in the country then, she hadn't left and when we were speaking with her because I didn't recognise it to have been taken whilst I was still in the country, she was certain that it was after that.

MR WILLS: Now just going back to Figure 28 ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just before you do that.
	When did Gugu leave the country?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: She left around 1986, if I'm not mistaken.

MR LAX: Thanks.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: But then maybe it's also - what I need to add is the fact that she is certain because she also did live with her at some point before she left the country.

MR WILLS: You're saying Gugu live with your ...(intervention)

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Lived with my sister before she left the country.

MR WILLS: ... with deceased for a while before she left.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, at eSikhawini, at her place, yes.

MR WILLS: Now just returning to Figure 28, can you tell us where that photograph was taken?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: This photograph was taken at eSikhawini, H105.

MR WILLS: This is the house in the background?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, that's her house at the background.

MR WILLS: Now turning to Figure 29, can you comment on approximately when this photograph was taken?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: The photograph also on Figure 29 was taken when I had left the country.

MR WILLS: Now why do you say that?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I'm saying this because the house at the background is also the house at eSikhawini, H105, and when I lived with her then we didn't have any cars and the husband then was driving the taxi, the kombi that he was using, and he would be there only over the weekends.  And I know for the fact that after I had left the country they had a workshop which I think they still had until recently and my sister was also helping in working at the workshop.  So my assumption is that this car might be the client's car.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say a workshop, you mean a shop in which cars were serviced and repaired?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now Mr Chairperson, I don't know if these other photographs which we were given today, I don't think they've been given exhibit numbers.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think - we haven't been given them yet.

MR LAX: We haven't got them yet, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the photograph referred to yesterday, the one that we saw on the video, the frontal photograph?

MR WILLS: Yes.  Maybe I've jumped the gun, I saw a pile of them when I was consulting downstairs, so possibly they are going to be handed in.  But be that as it may, I will refer to this and possibly - I don't know where the rest are ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think if that photograph's going to be handed in, we can at this stage call it R30.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Now looking at R30, are you able to say when this photograph might have been taken?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I'm not very certain, but this photograph is a passport or an ID size photograph that I found with mine.  It might have been around the '80s, when she was looking for the ID.  I cannot vouch for that.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you found it, it was one of these small passport size photographs and it's been blown up now, obviously?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I had it in my possession, so it was just blown up.  It is myself who provided it when we were looking for - the doctors were looking for photographs.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something.  Was that obviously taken before you went into exile?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: It looks like it was taken before I left for exile.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR WILLS: And assuming it was ID photograph and used for an ID book, is it not so that we've been through documentation and we were able to establish that the ID number was issued before June 1980, is that correct?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, it is.

MR WILLS: So the chances are, on those facts, that this photograph might have been taken before that period.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you say the ID was issued before June...?

MR WILLS: June 1980.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why do you pick on June?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, all I can say is that we've tried to get the file at Home Affairs, it has disappeared.  The ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you get the June from the number, ID number or ...?

MR WILLS: No, what has happened Mr Chairperson, and I don't think it's a contentious issue, we've gone through certain documentation and there was an application for a house, something to do with a house in eSikhawini and the ID number was placed on that application and that application was dated in June 1980.  So we're assuming that this photograph was used for purposes of that identification document.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand, thank you.

MR WILLS: Thank you.   We'll move off the photographs.
	Now just turning to the dresses that have been labelled, Exhibits 5 and 6, tell me how did you come across those dresses?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: The day that Mr Visser was asking for the other dresses we went home that afternoon and we went to look.  That's KwaMashu ...(indistinct) ...23.  We went to my mother's bedroom to look for my sister's dresses because we knew that there were bags that were containing their clothing.  That is the bag, the suitcase that contains my sister's belongings and the suitcases that contained my mother's belongings and the suitcases that contained my late sister's belongings.  So we opened those suitcases and whenever we'd be opening any one of them we would ask the children whose clothes are these and - that's my sister's children, particularly the elder one, the boy, because then he was big then and he knew where - he was staying with my mother in KwaMashu, he knew what was happening.  Then he was able to say - to identify my sister's suitcase.
	And then we would take out the clothes from there and just open them, stretch them and show them to him and we'll verify whether any of the items of those clothings were my sister's, and he confirmed that with us.  When I talk about "we", I'm talking about my sister, Sibongile and myself, because I went home with her.  So that's how we identified those dresses.

MR WILLS: So as I understand it, you went home to the family home in KwaMashu.  There were certain suitcases.  One was identified as being the one that contained your sister's, your deceased sister's belongings.  You opened the suitcase, took out two dresses and they were verified to be your sister's by Clifford Thamsung Kubheka, is that right?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: That's true.

MR WILLS: And then you brought them in to the Committee.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Now you mentioned that Clifford - well, let me ask you, do you know how old Clifford was at the time of your mother's disappearance?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Clifford was born in ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, sister's disappearance.

MR WILLS: Sorry, sister's disappearance.  I'm terribly sorry.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Clifford was born in 1969, at the end of January.  He might have been about 18 around that period.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.  Mr Visser, do you have any questions?

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
	Can you tell us Mrs Masetla, what month of 1983 you left into exile?