Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: While I was told what I should write, and I realised that this could eventually become problematic to me if I'm supposed to protect other people who at this stage are not supporting me, because these people are not helping me in any way.

MR HEWITT: If I could try and be of assistance here, and also in fairness to the applicant, I simply put this version to him because it didn't square at all with what was given to - the version that has been given here.  But I can't take this matter any further.  It seems to me that Mr Mpshe can take the matter a lot further because I notice that on page 412 of this affidavit, it seems to have been attested by the applicant on the 12th of December 1996.  And on the page which I have, 417, I see that there's a Correctional Services ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: It's 8 months later or 4 months later.

MR HEWITT: Dated the 8th of April 1997.  Now I don't know, I don't' have any documents relating to this applicant's trial, Mr Mpshe has that, and I don't know when this applicant's actually trial - his trial actually took place, if in fact it took place, after this statement was made on the 12th of December 1996.  On the face of it the version which I read out seems to be a self-defence situation, and I have heard for the first time from Mr Mpshe today that the false defence which was put up by this applicant in his trial was one of self-defence, which was rejected.
	So the time that he made this affidavit in relation to his giving of a false alibi or defence - I'm not sure what his defence was, but it seems to me Mr Mpshe can throw more light on this aspect.  There is obviously a clear contradiction between the two versions, but at what point it occurred is obviously of crucial importance now.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Hewitt, I understand what you say.  Mr Mpshe do you have any ...[intervention]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chair, if the Chair allows me to have a second bit?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ndlovu you will recall my last question to you was under the killing of Bongane Ntombela, I said to you, at all relevant times you were operating as the police.  Do you recall that question?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes I do remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Right.  And your answer was "no", do you remember that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: You spoke about a van and I said to you that we were on foot.  That is what I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said you didn't have a police firearm, and I think the thrust of the answer was that you were not operating as a policeman at the time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you hear what the Chair said?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: When you answered Mr Mpshe's question as to whether or not you were acting at all times in your capacity as a policeman, you answered that you didn't have a police firearm, you had a different firearm; and you didn't use a police van, and you came on foot, thereby giving the impression that you didn't act in your capacity as a special constable, is that so? It's for you to tell us.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct Chair.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now the application that you filled, you signed on the 12th of December '96, this was after you were convicted for the killing of Ntombela?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: And then ...(intervention)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm saying, the application dated 12 December '96 signed by yourself - on page 412 Mr Chairman and members of the Committee - 412, this application was filled in by yourself after you were convicted for the killing of Bongane Ntombela.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And when you filled in this application as you had indicated to me when I asked you a question about full disclosure, you wanted here to tell the truth because you told the court not the truth, am I right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And whatever is in this application will be the truth?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair I explained that firstly, this is not my handwriting, I was actually guided on how to write this application so as to protect the other people that I mentioned before.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see, who guided you?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: There was captain Nshlengo who had come with an IFP lawyer, a Mr De Klerk.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But despite that, your feeling was to tell the Truth Commission the truth?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's look at page 409 - 409 paginated Mr Chairman and Members.  I will read for your convenience, that is under "B", the justification for regarding the acts as political.  You say
"As they the KZP I was justified to act in defence of myself, the reason being that that place Imbali Township is a ANC base.  Some of the K.P. officers who had been killed and were still under surveillance and threatened by the ANC military wing"
Do you see that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes I see it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you realise that what you have said in this application, the paragraph I've just quoted, tallies very well in as far as defence is concerned with what you've said in court.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So if you told this Committee that what you said in court was untrue in as far as the self-defence is concerned, it would mean that even what you say here before this Commission, it's also untrue.  Am I right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: ...(no audible answer)

MR MOLOI: Mr Mpshe don't we have a clarification before the applies, he has just told us that in clarification when the Chair was asking from a question that emanated from Mr Hewitt, that the IFP had no faith in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, they merely saw it as an extension.  And then they came with captain Shlengwa and this De Klerk which I'm not sure whether it's the same De Klerk who signed as a Commissioner of Oaths as well, that this application was not filled in by himself, it was written out for him, and he had no way because he had these IFP people there.  I suppose if we could go along those lines we could get better clarification.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Let's go back to what has been said.  What is written in here - or let me say, the person who wrote here, wrote what he was told by yourself, is that correct?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I explained Chair, that they said I should put it in a way that was slightly better than what I said in court, but along the same vein.  So these are similar because they were trying to protect these people I mentioned before, the people that I've mentioned the other statement.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja, let's not confuse ourselves, the person who was writing wrote what you told him to write, am I correct?

MR WILLS: Sorry with respect Mr Chairperson, he has to my mind answered the question.

CHAIRPERSON: He's said that he - I think it's clear from the question that he told what too write, but was told to say something in similar vein to the defence, that's what I gathered.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will leave it at that Mr Chairman.  But ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you leave it Mr Mpshe, I think he's made it quite clear that he was told what to say in his application.  What I want to establish is, whose handwriting is reflected in this application, is it your handwriting or is it Mr De Klerk's handwriting?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: I think we met in a hall, I think it was one of the IFP members who is rather educated as well Mr De Klerk and captain Shlengwa.  I do not remember exactly who it was, they were in a hurry and they wanted this to be mailed urgently to Cape Town, so I cannot remember what was happening exactly at the hall.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And Mr De Klerk, was he the one who was advising that person who was writing what to write in your application form?