Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Which would result, which would cause that effect, yes.

UNKNOWN: Therefore, it is not the journalists that are misinterpreting the situation, you yourself say you succeeded, you created chaos and mayhem?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, but I said the extent of the chaos, because we wanted the minimum of problems to take place, the extent of the chaos has been exaggerated by journalists.

UNKNOWN: But you yourself say that it was a success and if the final success had come about at Bophuthatswana, then it would have been a 100% success.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I was referring to the reaction amongst right wing leaders, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because it was, in that respect, a success.

UNKNOWN: Was the CP ...

CHAIRPERSON: How, sorry.

UNKNOWN: Was the CP involved in Bophuthatswana?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, they were, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Who, by who?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To the best of my knowledge, Dr Hartzenberg, himself was present.

UNKNOWN: Oh, let us hear about that.  What role did Mr Hartzenberg play in the attempt to ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Prevent ...

UNKNOWN: ... use violence ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To ...

UNKNOWN: ... against Bophuthatswana.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I did not say he was there to use violence against Bophuthatswana, I said he was there to prevent violence being perpetrated against Bophuthatswana.

UNKNOWN: The Government of the day was the National Party.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The Government of Bophuthatswana, Mr Chairman, was the Government under President Mangope.

UNKNOWN: The Government of South Africa was under the control of the National Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, but Bophuthatswana was an independent ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... state

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Let us work on the premise that you are working on, that it was, indeed, an independent state.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is a constitutional fact, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes, let us even work on that premise.  I do not want to argue the situation on a political basis as to whether it was a legitimate state or not.  Let us work on your premise.  The South African Government and Mr Derby-Lewis is a South African, of course, I beg your pardon, Mr Hartzenberg, is a South African citizen and a political leader in South Africa not in Bophuthatswana?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Was an attempt made by certain sections of the community to buttress up Mr Mangope's regime and to take over in order to avoid the process that had started for a united South Africa?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, in Mr Bizos' ...

UNKNOWN: Did Mr Hartzenberg take part in the events and was he in any way responsible for the shooting that there was done in Bophuthatswana during that attempt?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as I was not present on the ground, I am not qualified to comment on that.

UNKNOWN: Was it policy of the Conservative Party to have heavily armed people in bakkies, on bakkies, on their motor cars to go in with arms and kill innocent people in Bambatha and in Mafekeng?  Did he make himself party to this?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I testified earlier, Mr Chairman, that there was no written policy ever, from the CP's part, regarding violence, but that the status quo, the facts of the situation was different.

UNKNOWN: Was he party to any act which the Bophuthatswana army had to repel?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I said, Mr Chairman, I am not aware of what happened on the ground ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... and I am not qualified to comment on that.

UNKNOWN: You see, have you been called a racist, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Many times, Mr Chairman.  I have discovered that when liberals have no other criticism, they resort to this hoary old chestnut, because it is very difficult to dispute something like that, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Did you regret that an Air Zimbabwe pilot put his brakes on so hard as to brake, as to have a tyre burst in order to avoid a Black person on the runway at Jan Smuts Airport?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not express regret over that,  Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Well, we will prove what your statement was.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: You think so, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Did you ever say that the solution to South Africa's problems was compulsory sterilisation of Black people?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, it is interesting that Mr Bizos raises that point, because that whole issue was the subject of a court case where I sued the then member of Parliament for Krugersdorp for lying in a propaganda piece of his and the lie was contained in that very statement which I took, it was an allegation by a journalist, that I had made that statement and I took the matter, Mr Chairman, to the Media Council, because I could not, at that stage, afford legal representative otherwise I would have really taken more serious action.  I took the matter to the Media Council and at the Media Council, ruled in my favour that, in fact, I had not made that statement and when the journalist concerned was asked to produce the tape, because I insisted with journalists, because by that stage I had learnt what devious means these liberal journalists used to mislead the public, Mr Chairman, I insisted on the journalist concerned sitting there with a tape recorder to record every word we said.  Mr Chairman, when the Media Council called for the production of that tape, as is now the case, apparently, with these tapes here, they were untraceable and then the story came back from the Editor that it had been taped over.  Very conveniently taped over so that they could not produce the tape which would support what I had said, because I took that precaution.  So, what Mr Bizos is now propagating there, Mr Chairman, is a blatant lie.

UNKNOWN: Well, let us see, I do not want to give you too, to take up too much time on this.  You actually sued Mr Wessels and the Nationalist Party for calling you a racist?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I sued Mr ...

UNKNOWN: Just answer the question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, not for calling me a racist.  I sued him for lying about me in a propaganda document.

UNKNOWN: Yes, which said that you were a racist?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Which said that I said that statement that you ...

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... produced.

UNKNOWN: I know about that case and I am going to put it to you and I will put it briefly and, I believe, accurately and just give me an opportunity so that we can get on with it.  You sued and they asked for absolution and absolution was granted.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: And they appealed and the court in the Transvaal said that absolution should not be granted, should not have been granted?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Which gave you an opportunity to set the matter down in plain damages against Mr Wessels and the National Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What Mr Bizos omits to mention, Mr Chairman, was that in the judgement by Judges Kriegler and Joffe, I think it was, they actually took an unprecedented step and they awarded interim costs in my favour because of the circumstances surrounding the case.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And it cost the National Party, in my estimation, something like R45 000,00 in those interim costs.  I had no costs, I had no money available, Mr Chairman, to once again go back to the process and to find myself in front of the same magistrate who had perpetrated that dastardly deed and I had no reason to expect, Mr Chairman, that I was going to receive justice from him again, because he had already perpetrated an open injustice.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  What you say about the costs may be correct, but what you omit to say is that the magistrate recused himself and that the case had to start over again, but you forgot about it and you gave up your action.