Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes there was, this information was presented here but I did not work with that.  I just worked on the information I obtained.  We went to Transkei, we identified some people and my tasks were completed.

MR MARAIS: If I understand you correctly there were bundles of documentation regarding information provided by Kondile to the Security police.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Those were things du Plessis handled.

CHAIRPERSON: I think your question should really be coming to your client's commitment or involvement in the matter, the extent of his involvement.

MR MARAIS: Yes my questions are related to that, my client's version is that Kondile was tortured and it was difficult to get the information.  Now he is saying it is easy to obtain the information.  I want to ascertain how much information he had because it took a whole month.
	I will continue to the next point.  Mr Raath your evidence is that you were involved at Humansdorp and Jeffrey's Bay all the time except those times when du Plessis was there.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's what I testified yes.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman you can stop me.  The impression I've got as far as I remember Mr du Plessis' evidence was that Mr Raath appeared on the scene at Jeffrey's Bay after the note had been found and he was sent there to guard Kondile.
Mr Raath you've heard what I've said.  Mr du Plessis' evidence was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Your objection?

UNKNOWN: My objection is that my learned colleague is putting a question on a factual basis which doesn't exist.  Mr du Plessis was quite clear in his evidence that he and Raath interrogated this man.  Raath has told you that by the time that du Plessis told him that the man had become an informer, Raath then faded out of the picture. That is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman is that the correct version that he put, I wasn't sure that's why I asked if...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That is part of the answer that was given by Mr du Plessis but I think it is common cause that Mr Raath was the man who went in the first instance to bring Kondile from Bloemfontein.

UNKNOWN: Yes you're absolutely right Mr Chair, that's correct.

MR MARAIS: Mr Raath what was the practice - Let me rather put it in this way, if you have to fetch a trained terrorist from another station, how many people are sent to fetch him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: In our case we were two.  It's not necessary to send a whole truck load full of people.  They never sent more than two people.

MR MARAIS: Perhaps yes, it would have been safer, wouldn't you agree?  Don't you believe it would have been safer if more policemen went to fetch him.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I did not see the necessity, there were things like handcuffs which could be used.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, just a minute please.  Your evidence is some identifications were done by Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct yes.

MR MARAIS: During these identifications who were involved, was it you, Mr Kondile and who else?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Captain du Plessis and also members from East London, I can't remember specifically who.

MR MARAIS: Mr du Plessis specifically testified about an incident in King William's Town when he was not there, can you remember that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I can mainly remember about a taxi rank which was indicated.

MR MARAIS: Who were there if he wasn't there?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: There were members from East London who were there, I don't know who they were.

MR MARAIS: Were they senior officers or junior officers?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I can't say.

MR MARAIS: Then the practice is that identification is done to a senior to an officer at least.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It depends on what kind of identification.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Danster have anything to do with all this?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No your Honour.

MR MARAIS: According to Mr Danster, you and Mr du Plessis were only involved when it came to the single quarters, is that correct?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes.

MR MARAIS: Did Mr du Plessis still visit Kondile in the single quarters?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes regularly.

MR MARAIS: What happened there then?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: They held discussions.  I was not involved in that.

MR MARAIS: What happened to you and Mr Danster when Mr du Plessis came there?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I went to do something else or somebody was at least relieving me.

MR MARAIS: And how regularly did that happen?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I can't say it could have been every day or every second day.

MR MARAIS: That was during the stage when he was in the single quarters and I accept that he drove quite a way to get there.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes he came from Port Elizabeth.

MR MARAIS: So I assume that he would not just stay there for five minutes, he would spend some time there if he took the trouble to come all that way.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Sometimes he spent a short time there, sometimes he was on his way to do something else, that wasn't the only thing he had to do.

MR MARAIS: Mr du Plessis and Mr Kondile, did they also go out to do identifications?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: We all went together during these identifications in Transkei.

MR MARAIS: It was already at that stage when he was placed in the single quarters?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No that happened before that.

MR MARAIS: When he was placed in the single quarters then Mr du Plessis and Kondile, did he go anywhere then?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I can't remember.

MR MARAIS: Why I'm asking you that is Mr du Plessis had testified that after you had been placed in the single quarters, no interrogation took place.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MARAIS: And I find it strange, and I'm putting it to you, if no interrogation had taken place, what was he doing there every day?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I've told you, no interrogation took place but they held discussions.  What they were talking about I don't know.

MR MARAIS: Are you sure there was no interrogation.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I'm sure.

MR MARAIS: How do you know that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I said so because I was there.

MR MARAIS: So were you there when Capt du Plessis visited him in the single quarters and spoke to him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I was there.

MR MARAIS: As I've heard your evidence, you and Mr Danster left when du Plessis came there.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: We could have stayed in the room, we could have left the room.

MR MARAIS: I can understand that but you've earlier testified not that we could go outside, you said that we did go outside when du Plessis came there and that was the reason why you said you didn't what was happening between them.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: This had happened seventeen years ago, I could  have made a mistake, but according to what I can remember, I could have gone out, I could have gone to the cafe.

MR MARAIS: I'm putting it to you that it's strange now that you're using the excuse of not knowing.   When I'm mentioning to you that you are contradicting Mr du Plessis's evidence, this is why you're using the excuse now.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: As far as I know Captain du Plessis never visited him at the single quarters.

MR MARAIS: Are you sure?  But you've earlier said that he came there every second day.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I said he did visit them.

MR MARAIS: What was Mr du Plessis instruction to you and Danster at the single quarter?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Mr du Plessis informed me and I've testified in this regard about the information which was smuggled from the cells and he would place Kondile in the single cells and we had to guard him.

MR MARAIS: Are you sure.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I'm sure.