Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, obviously because of the 
logistical problem, we had a problem.  My attorney, Mr Britz 
did speak to Mr Currin. He said - to his personnel.  He 
couldn't get hold of him personally.  They indicated that 
there wasn't a problem, that the report could go in, but 
they said that we should place on record that they reserve 
all their rights pertaining to this report and that they 
will let the Committee have their view on this in due 
course.  
	I may mention that I had a discussion with Mr Currin 
before, last week, about this report and the possibility 
that oral evidence would be required.  He gave me an 
indication that he does not think that that would be 
necessary and only if the circumstances really warrant it, 
he would ask for such an opportunity.  We obviously, if he 
wants to do that, we obviously will have discussions with 
him, see if we can't sort whatever he wants to deal with, 
sort that out between ourselves, so that we perhaps could 
present the Committee then with a joint separate report or a 
memorandum, pertaining to his problems and the answers 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 172

<UNKNOWN>: thereto.  
	What I foresee, Mr Chairman, is that if he has certain 
questions, they could perhaps be put by him to Dr Robertse 
telephonically.  It could be taped and it could be 
transcribed or it could be dealt with in any other way that 
would make the Committee's task much easier, instead of 
calling him as a witness.  Obviously if the members of the 
Committee wish to ask Dr Robertse questions the same 
procedure can be followed or he can be called to give 
evidence.  He is prepared to give evidence.
	I don't know if there are any further aspects 
pertaining to this, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: The way I understand it, a copy of this 
particular document has not yet reached Mr Currin. Is that 
it?

UNKNOWN: It hasn't, Mr Chairman.   We will, we are 
going to try to do that today.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: We will let him have that.

HASSAN MALL: Well, on the understanding that you have 
conveyed to us that you will endeavour to discuss this 
matter with Mr Currin, it may be that after you have 
discussed it, you will submit jointly a memorandum.  If it 
transpires that Mr Currin requires the witness to be called 
to give evidence or for himself to call a consultant to give 
evidence, we will deal with that matter when that problem 
arises.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is my suggestion, Mr Chairman.  I 
don't want to belabour the Committee with that, I think Mr 
Currin and ourselves can deal with that very easily, as we 
have dealt with other issues during these hearings, and I 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 173

<UNKNOWN>: think we can come to a very satisfactory conclusion without 
a problem.

JUDGE WILSON: Could I also add that I would suggest if that 
does arise, arrangements should be made to hear the witness 
elsewhere and not - we don't all have to come down to Cape 
Town for that purpose.

UNKNOWN: Yes, obviously an arrangement can be made 
which suits the members of the Commission the best and we 
will make arrangements to be available in that regard.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any comments to make in this 
regard?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, thank you, I don't have any 
comment, but just to confirm what my learned friend has told 
the Committee about Mr Brian Currin.  I also had a 
discussion with him telephonically yesterday and he stated 
to me exactly what my learned friend has just conveyed to 
the Committee.  Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  Thank you very much. This document, 
including the letter from Dr Robertse and all the annexures 
thereto, will figure as EXHIBIT FF, in these proceedings.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, then 
there is only one issue left, and that is, we gave the 
Committee an undertaking that in respect of the matter of 
Brian Ngqulunga, we would endeavour also to obtain the 
record of the evidence that he gave at the Harms Commission. 
 We have been able to obtain that, Mr Chairman.  I don't 
have the usual confirmation that it is a correct transcript, 
et cetera.  This - one of our other clients, one of Mr 
Britz' other clients obtained this for us.  I don't have any 
reason to believe that it is not correct, but I don't have 
the 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 174

<UNKNOWN>: normal confirmation thereof.  But I, however, do have copies 
for the Committee which I beg leave to hand up.
	Mr Chairman, I don't intend to deal with that record at 
all in evidence by Capt Mentz at all, and I will only use it 
in argument, for argument purposes. Mr Chairman, that would 
be Exhibit GG.

HASSAN MALL: This transcript of the evidence given by Mr 
Brian Ngqulunga before the Harms Commission will be received 
by the Committee as EXHIBIT GG.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Is there any other matter, Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I don't know whether to 
raise that here, Mr Chairman, but it pertains to the 
discussion between the Chair and members with the lady, Ms 
Pumla. I don't think it can be raised here.

HASSAN MALL: Ja.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Then there is nothing 
more to say.

HASSAN MALL: You will make available a copy of the report?

UNKNOWN: I have made it available to her.

HASSAN MALL: Thanks.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry, there is just one 
issue that I would like to raise and that is the question of 
the heads of argument and the question of judgment.  It is 
something that we could discuss it with chambers with you or 
we could raise it here. I just want an indication from you.

HASSAN MALL: We should talk about heads of argument, so that 
all of us have some idea as to when we would be able to 
attend to this matter, in the absence of calling any further 
evidence.  
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 175

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, there are a few issues 
that have to be cleared up in that regard.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.  Well, now are we not in a position to fix 
a time by which heads of argument is to come in?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, yes, that wouldn't be a 
problem.  I would need, I would say approximately three to 
four weeks inbetween, inbetween other matters that I have to 
deal with, to be able to finalise the heads of argument.

JUDGE WILSON: Would you base your argument on the typed 
transcript to the evidence?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, and that would also cause 
a problem.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, our experience in the past, I think, to 
say three to four weeks might be a little ambitious.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I am a bit apprehensive in committing 
myself to that.  That was obviously on the basis that I have 
the record available on Monday, that I can start, which I 
don't think would be the case.   We have the record of the 
first part of the hearing.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any objection to the 
arrangement that counsel be allowed four weeks within which 
to submit his heads of argument?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I would have no problem with that, 
Mr Chairman, but I just want to indicate that the record is 
not yet available, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: I understand that, yes.  The heads of argument 
can be commenced with, in respect of that portion of the 
hearing where the record is completed, so regular work can 
be done in the meanwhile.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may I enquire from the Chair 
if it would be possible for me to approach the Committee 
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UNKNOWN: 176

<UNKNOWN>: perhaps, or yourself, if there is a problem with the 
availability of the last part of the record, and I see that 
there isn't enough time.  The reason why I am prepared to 
commit myself to a period soon after the hearings, is the 
fact that we deem it important to have the heads of argument 
in and we want to deal with this while everything is fresh 
in our minds.

HASSAN MALL: Of course.