Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Merwe. Ms Botha, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MS BOTHA: Mr van der Westhuizen, it is my inference from your evidence that informers were involved with Nthombi before Simon and Jimmy and Dube made contact with her, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, there was knowledge of Khubeka which was given by informers, it was known.

MS BOTHA: Do you know how many informers were involved with her before Simon, Jimmy and Dube made contact with her?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I don't know.

MS BOTHA: Very well.  Furthermore in your evidence you have stated that you recall that Mbane was the leader or would have brought the leader of the terrorists, do you recall whether it would have been the leader or more members than the leader?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It could have been possible for more members to come with.

MS BOTHA: Because it is my instructions and Mr Radebe will also testify that he drove the vehicle in which they brought Nthombi to Battery Beach and that he and Jimmy and Dube were in the vehicle.  Can you recall whether you saw Mr Radebe there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall seeing Mr Radebe there.  I recall Mr Mbane specifically.

MS BOTHA: But it is possible that he could have been there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MS BOTHA: It is just strange to me that given they had travelled in the Toyota Corolla in which everybody would have fitted if you expected more than one terrorist?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't understand your question, could you repeat it?

MS BOTHA: I beg your pardon, I will reformulate.  Given that Simon and Dube and Mbane were in the vehicle as it is alleged, where would all these persons have been seated in the Corolla vehicle which you allegedly expected to arrive at Battery Beach?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: If there had been more members than the leader of the group, there wouldn't have been room for everyone in the vehicle.

MS BOTHA: I just wanted to know furthermore, you come from Durban?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MS BOTHA: Why would it have been necessary to sleep over at Winkelspruit or was that the practice during operations?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: We regularly stayed together during such operations and stayed over at such premises.

MS BOTHA: On this particular evening, did you also spend the night there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I cannot recall that, I don't believe that I spent the night there.  I think I went home after the incident or shortly after the incident.

MS BOTHA: After you had left the room, did you see Mr Radebe in the immediate vicinity?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I cannot recall seeing him.

MS BOTHA: Thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BOTHA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Samuel, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr van der Westhuizen, I refer you to page 3 of your affidavit, Annexure F on the third paragraph, it says
"... there were ablution facilities and a store room",
	you are referring to the building which is still in existence at the Winkelspruit shooting range, am I right?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Then you go on to say
"... in fact I would sleep over there in the evenings."
	Clearly you are not referring to that particular building, am I right, when you say -
"... in fact we would sleep over there in the evenings"?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was when you said you sleep, sometimes slept there, Mr Samuel is asking you did you actually sleep in the store room or on the verandah or in the ablution block there or where would you sleep, you?  When you slept there, where did you sleep?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: We did not sleep in the rooms, we slept outside under the cover where the concrete slab was situated.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  That is where the tarpaulin was, the white members of your branch slept under the tarpaulin, am I right?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, black members of the branch also slept there, sir.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, there will be evidence led that the white members and black members in 1987, never slept together?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now, we have had a look at the building that is still in existence at Winkelspruit and you say that Ms Khubeka was held in the store room and she was being interrogated there, am I right?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Would I be correct in saying that any person who stands outside the door, will have a clear, will be able to hear if anyone screamed in that room?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: There will be evidence led that Mr Jimmy Mbane slept outside, immediately outside that door in the area, the vacant area that is there.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that.

MR SAMUEL: Are you saying that these members never slept outside there, or only on that particular day they did not sleep there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that they slept there on that particular evening or on previous evenings.

MR SAMUEL: Would I be correct in saying that if anybody was removed from that room, any person in that vacant area would have a clear view of that body being taken out?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you are referring to the vacant area, let's call it the verandah, we know that that is the area between the two rooms that would have been covered by the roof.  We will refer to it as the verandah, then we will all know what we are talking about.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, I am indebted sir.   Mr van der Westhuizen, would I be correct in saying that if any person was either sitting, laying down or standing in the verandah, would have a clear view of a body being brought out of the room, that is called a store room?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: If someone was on the verandah, they would have seen if someone was being carried out of the room.

MR SAMUEL: Would I be also correct in saying that if a vehicle was reversed to the verandah, persons in the verandah would have noticed it?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, I am going to put Mr Mbane, my client's version to you, could you please tell us whether you agree with this or not.  Mr Mbane's version will be, or his evidence will be to the effect that - sorry, before I put his version to you, were you present at any stage when Mr Mbane had told Mr Botha and Mr Taylor of Ms Khubeka's suspicions, that she was becoming suspicious of the whereabouts of two persons that were supposed to be held in safehouses by Mr Mbane?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question put by Mr Samuel is did you at any time during the operation become aware of the fact either by being told by Col Taylor or Col Botha or anybody else or through your own knowledge that Ms Khubeka, the deceased, was becoming suspicious at all?  She had been infiltrated and it is alleged that she was becoming suspicious about the infiltration, particularly in regard to two persons who she hadn't heard of for some time, and she was now becoming suspicious.  Were you aware of that at all?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson, I didn't have any such knowledge.

MR LAX: Mr Samuel, I don't know if you and the way you put that question, you said those people were being held by Mr Mbane, is that his evidence that he was holding them?

MR SAMUEL: No sir, his evidence will be that Ms Khubeka had given Jimmy Mbane two persons whom Jimmy Mbane was supposed to find safehouses for, a place to stay, and Jimmy Mbane thereupon took those people and handed them over to Mr Botha and Mr Taylor instead of finding them safehouses.