Human Rights Violation Hearings — Tembisa — 1996-11-27

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Even the community talks about peace today.

MS SEROKE: You mean there's peace with them?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes that's true.

MS SEROKE: These Toasters, were they comrades before they became gangsters?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: That is correct.

MS SEROKE: Do you know exactly what changed their.....

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: I'll say what changed them is that there were problems in the location and that when someone kills he had to be killed.  There was a mistake, one of the comrades shot their friend and they started to change and they became Toasters.  However this comrade has not been killed and he was taken to Rabasotho Police Station and they were angry about this issue so they started joining the gangsters.

MS SEROKE: Where does this name come from?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: I don't know.

MS SEROKE: Because myself, I know the toaster that I toast my bread at home, does it mean as I know that we normally toast bread, they were also toasting bread?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: No they were shooting.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

MR LEWIN: Mr Dlamini, can I ask you just a little bit more TEMBISA  HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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about the background because obviously it is an interesting case.  We were told yesterday that the Toasters originated here in Tambeka. Would you confirm that?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LEWIN: Do they still exist?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LEWIN: In what shape or form?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: People are prepared to have peace and are living peacefully.

MR LEWIN: So do they still exist as a identifiable group?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: They are not a group of Toasters, and they've dispersed now, they're staying in different areas.

MR LEWIN: Okay and could I ask you when they were functioning, would you describe them as you have described them, as gangsters?  But would you say they were a criminal gang or a political gang?  Or a bit of both?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: They were a criminal gang.

MR LEWIN: But they used politically then?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: That's so.

MR LEWIN: On their own initiative or were they used by other people?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Initially they just ganged on their own but as soon as they stayed Vusumuzi they were controlled and given instructions as to what to do.

MR LEWIN: And that's how you were attacked?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Dumusani, initially the toasters were called the Toasters because they used to go out on outings and braai meat or roast meat but later on, is it true that they also burned the people that they killed?
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DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes, whenever they would find a comrade they would take you in their car and then they will kill you and then they will burn you.

YASMINE SOOKA: That is how the name stuck to them?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: It is so, yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: If they were recruited by the IFP people in the Vusumuzi Hostel, how come Yster came to be killed by a person in the hostel?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: As I hear, according to the hostel dwellers, it all broke out in a dice game. They were gambling.

YASMINE SOOKA: But later on when Yster was killed, when there was a further fight between the Comrades and the Toasters, what, why did the fight not break out between the people in the hostel and the Toasters, why was the fight between the Comrades and the Toasters, because the Comrades were not responsible for Yster's death?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: I don't know why they fight against the hostel dwellers.

YASMINE SOOKA: And who was responsible for taking Yster's body out of the grave, was it the Comrades or -?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: That I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Order order, order please! Please let's have some silence!

YASMINE SOOKA: Who burned Yster's body afterwards?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: I don't know, I just heard that his body had been exhumed and burned.  I went to go and watch and I just told myself that at least they have revenged on our behalf.

YASMINE SOOKA: Are you aware of the fact that there are members of the gang who are in prison and that they intend applying for amnesty?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes I'm aware of that.
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YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  At this point in time, if the members of this gang came back into the community, would there be peace in the community or would there still be problems between members of the gang and the Comrades?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: I don't know because some of the community are still affected by loss because these gangs robbed the community as well, and as well, I would be on of the people who would be very happy if they could be killed. The person who killed my mother as well.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: If I can just ask one question again? How do you survive?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: At the moment I've just started working, but before I was struggling because they killed somebody who was supporting us.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say this you are talking about your mother?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes, my mother.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that you were struggling, were you talking about your disturbed state?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes I was very disturbed, still today.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this disturb you in order to get employment.

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes it did.  I stayed some time not working
because my employer did suggest that I must take some leave because I was working with Sharp Machinery, so they suggested I must take some time off because they could see that I was mentally disturbed.  Because I was staying with my mother and I was working and she was surviving by selling some fish and food at the school.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any form of help that you tried to
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get when you realised that this was affecting you mentally?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: I went to stay at my sister's place in Vosloorus for some time because whenever I was at home this would affect me again and haunt me.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that she used to haunt me, do you talk about your picture, the last memories of her?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: That is true?

CHAIRPERSON: The one question to ask you again, Dumusani? As we are talking now about reconciliation, what do you think should be done so as to help the youth like you who lost their beloved ones and sustained injuries to be able to get comfort and make sure that this doesn't happen again?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: I had told myself that I just need peace. We think differently.  Some people don't want peace, some are still looking into revenge, but I want peace.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumusani, did Yster have parents, are they still around? At the time he was being buried, how was his funeral?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: I don't know about him.  During his funeral there was even shooting in the field again and people were fighting at the funeral.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think that his parents were also
disturbed by this.  Don't you think that maybe we can try and comfort his parents as well and the other youth? You say that you were comforted by the thought that he is dead because they revenged on your behalf by killing Yster.

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think it would help if Yster's parents can be comforted as well due to the death of their son, who was exhumed even after he was already buried, and burned?

DUMUSANI HENRY DLAMINI: I don't know how to respond to your question,  TEMBISA  HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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because if we can think of all the things that happened, peace will never prevail but if we can stop revealing all these things, I think then we can bring peace because people will always remember how many people are dead, otherwise we'll kill each other to eternity.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Yasmin Sooka?