Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR VISSER: Yes.  They were black men, these two people you say in your Exhibit B, do you recall that as well?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I remember that Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: I want you to cast your mind back to the time and tell the Committee as best you can remember, what exactly Taylor said.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember the exact words, but the gist of it was that these people had been acquitted for bombing incidents or a bomb incident, for some reason Amanzimtoti stayed with me, and that because of their previous history, training and the potential for them to get even more or further involved in the activities and the potential for further loss of life,  bombings, etc, that they should be eliminated.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You did not remember at the time when you signed your application form at page 24, or at the time that you signed your affidavit, Exhibit B the names of any of the two?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, the first time I heard, or I recalled the name of the deceased, was when Captain Holmes brought it to my attention.

MR VISSER: All right.  The question of what particular incident it was that they were acquitted of in court, appears also to be confusing to your mind.  In your application you say it was the Amanzimtoti bomb and we know which one that is and in Exhibit B, page 3, you refer to a McGoo bomb.  Is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.  I suppose when I made the statement, the 204 statement, that I either couldn't remember Amanzimtoti or which incident, and McGoo's having been also a very prominent bomb, that probably stuck in my mind.

MR VISSER: Yes, but what you do remember is that it was a prominent incident?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I do Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Major Taylor was referring to.  Is that the gist of what you can remember was discussed at the time?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Whatever Mr Taylor told you, did it convince you to make common cause with the elimination of and we now know it was Mr Bhila, did it convince you to make common cause?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Based on what Major Taylor told us, I was convinced that we had to eliminate him or else further damage or acts of violence were going to be perpetrated.

MR VISSER: Were you personally aware of the security situation, the unrest situation in Natal at the time, 1987, what it was like?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I was.  I was very aware of the fact that as McCarter referred to it yesterday, it was called Bombay, or the nickname was Bombay in those days, because of all the activities, explosions, etc taking place here then.

MR VISSER: There will be evidence later, Mr Rosslee about this from members of the unit of Port Natal who will give evidence before this Committee in more detail, but according to personal notes, personal record which was kept by Major Taylor, it appears that in 1987, there were 17 serious incidents of politically related violence.  Would that accord with your recollection of the time?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I wouldn't be able to stipulate a number, but I know that there was a lot of activity going on in Port Natal at that stage.

MR VISSER: It was a hotspot?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It most definitely was, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: These discussions with Major Taylor, where did they take place?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection is that it took place in his office as C.R. Swart Square.

MR VISSER: Were any of the black members from Vlakplaas present when this discussion took place?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Not to my recollection Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: All right.  Then you say in your amnesty application, page 25, the askaris were sent to the residence of one of the said suspects.  Do you know that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know that Mr Chairman.  I do not recall being actively involved in the actual planning, the logistics of how the deceased was going to be kidnapped or taken away.  I have no recollection of that.

MR VISSER: What were you told?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection is that Mr Bhila was going to be approached at home or somewhere, and he was going to be lured away from his home, under the pretext that the police or Security Branch was going to arrest him, and the askari or askaris who approached him, were there to take him out of the country for further training.

MR VISSER: For his own safety?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: For his own safety, yes.

MR VISSER: And for further training, yes.  And when you say he believed the story and accompanied them to a shooting range, you were not present there, this was a matter of deduction on your part, isn't that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Let us come then to the actual morning of the abduction of Mr Bhila by asking you, were you personally present when he was either asked to get into a vehicle or transferred from one vehicle to another as far as you can remember?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember being present when the transfer or handover or whatever, took place.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Your recollection is clear that firstly you were present yourself, on this particular day, the 22nd of February at the Winkelspruit pistol shooting range of the South African Railway Police?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I was present there, yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And you can remember that a person who we now know is Mr Bhila, was also present there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: As to the sequence of arrivals, I don't want to confuse you about when Mr Bhila and so on arrived, but I just want to ask you this, did Mr Wasserman who will also come and give evidence directly after you, proceed to the shooting range in your company or what was the position?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection is that Major Taylor and Mr Wasserman arrived later the afternoon Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Can you remember more or less what time it was that you arrived at the pistol shooting range?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: If I remember correctly, it was early in the morning, when I say early, it must have been about mid-morning probably, if I remember correctly.

MR VISSER: What time do you place on mid-morning?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would say about nine, or ten o'clock.

MR VISSER: Nine, or ten o'clock.  And what time would you say if you have to guess and reconstruct today, what time would you say that Taylor and Wasserman arrived?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It would be a guess from my side, but I would say probably in the region of after half past three.

MR VISSER: Yes, you refer to the fact that you and Bosch and McCarter as well as Wasserman, were - the sentence doesn't really make sense, it is the bottom of page 3, perhaps I should just read it, it says I, Bosch, McCarter, Wasserman and I cannot recall if Major Taylor arrived there later at an old club house that was situated at an old shooting range, where we were waiting for the kidnapped person.
	That seems to suggest, does it not, that Wasserman was already there and maybe Taylor as well, waiting for the arrival of Mr Bhila.  And if it is what this suggests, I am asking you, was that correct as far as you are now concerned, having had the benefit of listening to other people and having had the benefit of rethinking the whole incident?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Having had the benefit of having spoken to and heard other people's evidence, I can say that what is in that 204 statement, with regard to that paragraph, was not correct.  I now remember Major Taylor and Mr Wasserman arriving later the afternoon.