Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.  Further up Springbok you'll get to Lower Klipdrift Road.  Your Worship, on this particular copy of it you can see Lower Klipdrift Road clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you arrived at A10, would you please tell us how many people do you say there were in the building upon your arrival and how - well first of all, give us an overall number or tell us the various classes of people that were there and we can add them up.  You can please yourself how you want to deal with it, but we just want to get an impression of how many people there were in the building as soon as you arrived.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In the building and its immediate surroundings, as I parked my car on the side, just immediately outside the front of the building, the Springbok Street side of the building, there were CAYCO members, about eight of them, in the foyer there were three guys of the Soccer Union, the members of the Kewtown Youth, approximately ten of them were still around in the building as well as the Security Guard, Jack, who was also in the building at the time.

GEORGE BIZOS: So you say that there were almost 25 people in the building.  Now, you went into the room which has been referred to as the "Saal" or as the ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: "Raadsaal".

GEORGE BIZOS: No, that's where you finished, the Board room, but where was the meeting of the Kewtown Youth ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The Kewtown Youth Movement's meeting was in the hall where the bomb exploded.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where the bomb exploded.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Inside that hall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you participate in a meeting in the hall or was the meeting transferred to the Board Room?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The Kewtown Youth Meeting was basically winding up.  Some of the people were starting to dismiss themselves and leave and I started chatting to the Regional, the CAYCO members which had come for the Regional Meeting and I was in the foyer at the time and towards about, just before 25 past 8 we moved to the Board Room where our meeting started.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now will you say about the foyer, what point is that on the...?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The foyer is in between points A and B, I haven't marked it on here, but it's basically adjacent to A.

GEORGE BIZOS: Adjacent to A.  That's the sort of entrance hall.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos, could I just ask a question?  I gather that many of the members of the Kewtown Youth, were also members of the Cape Youth?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Kewtown had a meeting and then the Cape Youth were going to have a meeting.  Now did all the people who attended the Kewtown meeting go across to the Board Room to go to the Cape meeting, or did some of those members leave the hall to go home or wherever else they were going?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: You Worship, those members, except for Peter Williams, the other members left the hall and they exited at the Springbok side of the hall, or the front entrance.

GEORGE BIZOS: The front entrance.  Only Peter Williams and you of the Kewtown Youth Committee were left behind?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct, Your Worship.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And you were in the foyer and you told us that there were some Soccer people there.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now why didn't the Youth Movement's meeting continue meeting in the hall where the explosion took place?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Firstly I was late, I was one of the Executive members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, I was late and when I came there, we normally had between 35 and 50 members attending meetings.  The meeting wasn't well attended in my opinion and I assume that it was stopped because of the other meeting which would start and myself and Peter being taken out of that meeting to attend the other.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Bizos was asking you, why didn't the Cape Youth meet in the same hall where the Kewtown Youth had concluded their meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The Kewtown Youth movement was an affiliate of the Cape Youth Congress, but this was the Regional structure and only youth representatives would attend the Regional meeting, not everyone.

MR LAX: No, you haven't understood the thrust of the question.  Why did they change venues for the meeting, that's really the thrust of the question.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: At the time I think Beulah, Mrs Fredericks, the co-ordinator or the principal of the centre itself, had requested that we move to the Board Room because the Union, the Soccer Union was going to meet in front and move into the hall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it expected that the Soccer people would be more than the Executive Committee Members of the Youth Congress?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well it would have been the Soccer Union's meeting, not a soccer club per se, so it would have been a broader forum.

GEORGE BIZOS: More or less people?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It would have been at least more than what we were.  I think the CAYCO meeting was about 11 or 12 people, is it could have been a bit more.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were to have your meeting in the Board Room?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You told us that those members of the Q Committee who were not to attend the Youth meeting, left and went away through the front entrance.  What is the name of the street?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Springbok Street.

GEORGE BIZOS: Springbok Street.  Anybody parked anywhere near where we were shown at the inspection in loco, Mr van Zyl, Mr Botha, Gakkie, had parked, would they have been able to see who was leaving at that time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: If they were parked at the back, they could not have seen who was leaving.

GEORGE BIZOS: How sure are you that the people there on the Kewtown Committee left through the front entrance?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was in the foyer at the time.  I saw them exiting as well as, in the event that someone was to leave by car, none of the members that evening except myself had a car, so they could not have exited the building at the back by means of a vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you lived in a flat on the that main road at the back, then wouldn't it be more convenient to walk through the back and car park to get to that flat, we saw big blocks of flats there.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.  Your Worship what happened is because we had a lot of younger members attending, they walked in groups and a senior member or an elder person within the group, would make sure that the younger members get safely to their houses and in the past either I would drive them by means of the bakkie, or we would walk together in a group to ensure their safety.

CHAIRPERSON: Now are you saying that none went through the back?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: None went through the back, Your Worship.

MR LAX: And is it not possible that they might have walked round the building and gone that way?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Around the building in terms of going via the, as Mr ...(indistinct) explained, via the Josephs Town?

MR LAX: Either that way, or as I recall the building, there's a fence all the way round that building.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR LAX: ;   And if you round the outside of the building, you can walk all the way round the property.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is, to an extent, that is correct, but there was - between - as you enter the Springbok Street entrance, there's a gate.  Now adjacent to the building's hall, there is another gate to allow you to walk around.  That gate was always locked.

MR LAX: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Alexander, if you take a look at Exhibit P, the photo, where is this, sorry what did you call it, Jacob's Close?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Jacobs Close.  Josephs Town.

CHAIRPERSON: Josephs Town.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Josephs Town is the - there's a building with a blue roof, that is Kriek and the building to the west of ...(intervention)