Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: When they shouted "uSotho, kill the dogs", they were still emerging from Buwa's house and when the people who had been at Vita's house came to my house and they said: "kill the dogs".  After they left my house - when they left my house, that was when somebody called "maak gou".

MR STRYDOM: Let me ask you this, where were you standing when somebody shouted "maak gou"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was in the sitting-room and there was a door right there and I was standing next to that door waiting, looking at what was happening.  I was also looking through the bedroom window because there are two windows in my bedroom.

MR STRYDOM: Why do say two windows in your bedroom?  Were you standing in your bedroom?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.  My bedroom is at the front portion of the house.  It is not at the back, it is next to the sitting-room.

CHAIRPERSON: And it is along the road, is it?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.  When I'm in the bedroom I can see what happens outside as well as I can see when I'm in the sitting-room.

MR STRYDOM: So was this at the stage before you left your bedroom, after the people that were trying to open the door of the bedroom?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: That is when they left.  They were being called to hurry up because the time was up.

MR STRYDOM: So at that stage you were looking through the window, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was standing there, just right there, I did not go to the window, but I could see through the window.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the bedroom door where you were standing, were you standing at the bedroom door?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, in the bedroom.

CHAIRPERSON: And that door opens into the sitting-room?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: From your bedroom do you go into the sitting-room, yes or no?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Could you see the person who shouted "maak gou"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I just heard a voice calling.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage was there just one big group of people moving past your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As they were walking past the streets, it was not as if they were a group, they were just walking along, just a throng of people.

MR STRYDOM: And you didn't see any whites at that stage, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The people who were dressed in black were walking along the sides, not in the middle of the street.

MR LAX: The question was, did you see any white people at that stage?  A simple yes or no, that's all that's necessary.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect, we've canvassed this before and the witness has explained that the people walking on the sides wore balaclavas and he associated them with whites because of what happened subsequent.  That's the context in which this answer must be understood, I would submit.

CHAIRPERSON: That's a matter for argument.

MR BERGER: Yes, but the point is we've canvassed this before, by Mr Strydom ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What's your answer, Mr Baloyi?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did see white people, those who had been in the Koyoco.  Two persons were seated in front of the Koyoco, those people were white.  With regards to the people who were dressed in black, I did not see that they were white, but I only surmise so.  When a Koyoco returned to collect a body and I saw a white person wearing a balaclava, that is when I realised that those people who had been walking alongside the street must have been white.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Baloyi, those people walking on the sides, when I asked you about that - we were talking at the time before your house was attacked, do you say that after the attack these people were still walking on the side of the road?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know how to explain this.  I do not know how to respond to your question.

MR STRYDOM: I'll try to make it easier.  I don't want to repeat the evidence, but yesterday I asked you questions
"What happened before the attack when you looked out and saw the Koyoco and what did you see ..."
... and all that, and you said that you saw a group of people in the road and you saw people on the side of the road, remember that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  And you said the people on the side, some of them wore balaclavas, is that right?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now after that, the houses opposite you were attacked and then your house was attacked and some time must have lapsed, isn't it so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: My house was the last that was attacked. That is why I was able to see them clearly.

MR STRYDOM: And now after the attack you looked through your bedroom windows and you again saw, according to your evidence, these people in black walking on the sides, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not see them again because they went in another direction.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  I want to put to you - and I'm not going to labour the point, but what I want to put to you, just now when you were asked what you saw when you looked out of the window, you again referred to people in black walking on the sides.  Now you're changing your version.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you have to understand that in the context of his evidence, he was being asked in regard to the events that occurred prior to his house being attacked and now he's being asked about the events after his house was attacked.  That's why ...(indistinct) had no basis, because he was now being asked, not about the balaclava people that he saw before, but whether he saw them after the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That is different from what was canvassed.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, that's exactly my point.  I'm not going to take it further, I'll argue that, it's a matter for argument, what remains.
	In your evidence you used the words:
"They left and went into the forest"
Can you just explain that, why did you refer to "forest"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I would not know what they did there in the forest, they were just walking along.  They were going back.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but you must assist me, you know the place better than I do.  Is there a forest in the close-by vicinity?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: If you refer to the forest, to which place do you refer?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It's an open space, there are no houses and that's where they were walking.  We call it a forest because when a person walks through there you are not able to see them properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any trees there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, there may be one somewhere around there, but there are not many trees.

CHAIRPERSON: But there is a lot of grass?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, there is a lot of grass, at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that why you are referring to it as "ihlateni"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: So the people left and walked towards that open veld between the township and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And it's in that open veld where you saw the two Koyokos?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw them at Umzimvubu, which is a tarred road and they were, the Koyokos were turning around that veld.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but I don't understand that because Umzimvubu Street is one of the streets that run through the township and there aren't any streets in the veld, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: If you know Boipatong and you know Umzimvubu, you will check just how far it goes.  It ends at the robots.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to have a look at Exhibit J ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't need that, I know that place very well.  I ...(indistinct) that area.