Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, could you help me, how do you pronounce the name?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Masil.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Masil, is it correct that you were born on the 28th of June 1971?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you - is it correct that you were born in the Gauteng Province?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how far you went to school?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Standard 10, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when did you join PAC?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I joined PASO whilst I was at school.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So PASO is the Pan Africanist Youth Organisation which was the Student Wing of the PAC?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Masil, you - when did you join PASO, when did you join PAC proper, or you remained a member of PAC through PASO?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I joined PAC in 1981.  Apologies Chairperson 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I was going to say otherwise you would have been ten years old.  1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Masil, you have heard the testimony of the first applicant, do you confirm the evidence of the first applicant in as far as it relates to you?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you abide by that evidence of the first applicant?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And do you also want it to be incorporated as part of your evidence?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead for the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Just before I ask Mr van der Heever, if I could just ask a few questions.  Did you ever join APLA?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I never joined APLA outside, I joined APLA internally when I was involved in APLA operations.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: 1994, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When in 1994?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: January 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you ever receive any military training?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So how could you become a member of APLA then if you've got no military training?  I thought APLA was the army.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct Chairperson.  I joined APLA because I was involved in the APLA operations.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they use your motor vehicle?  I mean we heard they used yours.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it your own vehicle?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Registered in your name?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever, I've been requested to take a short adjournment, but I see that it is nearly ten to eleven so perhaps we could, instead of taking a short adjournment and coming back for a couple of minutes, we'll take the short tea adjournment now.  We'll have a twenty minute tea adjournment thank you and we'll resume.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr van der Heever, do you have any questions to put to the applicant?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, the BMW was bought by your mother, is that correct?  I'm referring to page 138 of the minutes of a document I've got.
"So you bought him a car?
		We bought him this very same BMW for about R3000"
Is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Now Mr Masil, you were represented by a certain Mr Botha during the criminal trial, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Now I'm referring to page 142 of the minutes and page 494 of the criminal trial and your counsel made the following submission.

CHAIRPERSON: More or less whereabout in the page?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Line 17.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR VAN DER HEEVER
"According to him, the accused no 2 was not politically motivated."
So according to your counsel you had no political motive.

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But was the submission made by your counsel correct?  Is that the instruction you gave him?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, I instructed him that way.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, you made a very lengthy statement from page 71 to page 78, if I remember correctly, of the minutes and I want just to refer you to certain paragraphs.  On page 72, paragraph 6, the last two lines
"I did not think that the other two were also members of APLA, because I did not know them very well."
Is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I instructed him that I did not know, because I wanted to be acquitted and that's how the police promised me, but I knew that they were members of APLA.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you made a false statement?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, that's the way the SAP promised me, that I should try to be against my co-accused and then the Court would reduce my sentence.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Paragraph 7.  According to your statement Silo requested you to take him to an engagement party in Pietersburg.  Is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, that is the statement I gave the police.  That is the statement I gave to the Court, but the truth is when we left Alexandra we were coming to Northern Province to do APLA operations.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Paragraph 10 of page 73
"On the 5th of February 1994, I was the last one to get up.  Everybody was already awake. Moss then came to me, he informed me that we were not there for the engagement party, we were there to look for the Kruger millions."
Is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, that is the statement I gave to the police and my legal counsel.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: You did not instruct your counsel properly, is that correct?  Is that what you're saying?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you lied to your counsel as well?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.
MR VAN DER HEEVER
"He then asked me if I knew the place and where we could get some money to rob"
Is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct Chairperson, that's what I told the police and my legal counsel.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And the Court?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: During the criminal trial?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So did you go to a garage in Mooketsi to rob the garage?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: When we went to Mooketsi we did not go there to rob the garage, but we were going to do some observations and then to show them Northern Province, according to my knowledge.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But did you go to the garage at Mooketsi?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct, Chairperson, we entered that garage at Mooketsi.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: ;   And I'm referring to paragraph 11 on page 73
"After we had dinner, we went to the garage in Mooketsi, where we wanted to rob it."
Did you say so to the Court, in your statement and to your counsel?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Why didn't you rob the garage?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Because we did not go there with the intention to rob that garage, we went there with the intention to observe the area as Morapapa has asked me to show them the area.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And why did you say to your counsel, to Court and in your statement you did not rob the garage because there were quite a number of taxis busy off-loading people?