Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

COL VENTER: The motive was in every case to gain informationfrom supporters and members of the liberation movements in thestruggle of the State against such movements.  The context inwhich this happened was against the background of increasing destabilisingactions in the country, unrest, violence and intimidation whichhappened on a daily basis.  The ANC attempted to make the countryungovernable and at that stage this was part of the politicalresistance.

UNKNOWN: Then on page 122 right from the top.

COL VENTER: The purpose and goal was to identify ANCsupporters, activists, fellow travellers or terrorists, to gaininformation with regard to them and to have criminal prosecution. The act was necessary to intimidate the terrorists, activistsand their supporters which was necessary in view of the securitysituation in the country.  Action against activists as far asI know was in most cases successful, and of the activists againstactions were taken then no longer continued with their activities. Steps were therefore successful against the activists and inthis way diminished the intimidation and the ungovernability making
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of the country by the ANC and other liberation movements.  Normallythe way of interrogation was that I gave the command, the methodsof interrogation were well-known methods used throughout the securityforces in keeping with the purposes and goals.

JUDGE WILSON: What were they?

COL VENTER: They were activists, well-known ANC activistsChair.

JUDGE WILSON: No what was the manner of the questioning,what was the manner of interrogation?

COL VENTER: I don't understand.

UNKNOWN: May I just request that Colonel Venterif he wants to use the headphones to hear the question in Afrikaansplease?  It would be convenient now Mr Chair.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I repeat my question, what was themethod of questioning that you refer to?

COL VENTER: Chair the means of interrogation which theyused I don't know because I had not been present during the interrogation.

JUDGE WILSON: You in your statement at page 122 say "normallythe manner of...(Interpretation of the Afrikaans not given)",how can you now say that you don't know, know what the methodswere?

COL VENTER: Chair I can sketch for you the manner ofinterrogation, the normal means of interrogation but I do notknow exactly how they interrogated the person.  The normal wayof interrogation by security branch members would have been touse violence, to humiliate people, to assault people, to intimidatepeople as a means of gaining information from them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I ask who determined what methods wereto 3B be/...
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be used for such interrogations in a particular case or incident?

COL VENTER: Chair where I was in command of interrogationI normally determined the modus operandi by simply takingpart in the interrogation.  It had become such a part of the securitybranch that the majority of members used this approach to interrogationas I described it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do proceed.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Colonel Ventera last question, I just want to clarify this point that we haveagreement with this, under whose instruction were you acting inPort Elizabeth?

COL VENTER: Chair I was under the command of the regionalcommander.  I particularly cooperated and received my direct instructionsfrom Captain van Zyl who at that time was my superior.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no furtherquestions for the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this witness not going to be giving evidencein relation to the dud handgrenades?

COL VENTER: Mr Chairman yes, but at a later stage.  Thereare certain arrangements - my learned friend contacted me in respectof one person, Mr Tebedi who is the speaker of the North WestParliament who has to be back tomorrow and he requested that mylearned friend asked me if we could deal with that incident perhapsafter this incident, with your permission obviously.  We do nothave any problem with dealing with different incidents at differenttimes with different witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman the
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arrangement my learned friend is referring to contradicts thearrangement that I have made that we are going to travel in thisfashion for various reasons Mr Chairman.  The first reason isthat we felt that we must first deal with the Pepco matter inorder to release the people from Port Elizabeth Mr Chairman. So if we continue now with schedule 9 involving the handgrenadesit means they will have to be detained here and they may misstheir flight.  That's the first reason.  
 The second reason is that I have in attendance the speaker ofParliament from Northwest Mr Chairman who has been with us sinceyesterday and who couldn't come on yesterday and I requested himto be in today and he indicated that he must finish today becauseParliament started today and he had to be back tomorrow.  So Imade that special request that when we finished with the Pepco3, when the point is where people leave then we could call himin and do his matter so that he can also be released, but withthe permission and consent of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Let's proceed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I believe therepresentatives of the families would like to question ColonelVenter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Mr Venter do you watch television, read newspapersand listen to the radio?

COL VENTER: Yes.

MR NYOKA: In 1985 did you do so around the disappearanceof the people in question?

COL VENTER: Yes Chair I believe that I listened to the
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radio.  We did not always have access to newspapers but I didlisten to the radio.

MR NYOKA: During that period it was headline news thatthere were three activists from Port Elizabeth who were missingafter being fetched from the airport, did you not hear or readabout that?

COL VENTER: Yes.

MR NYOKA: Were the names not mentioned of those peoplethat were missing when you read about that or listened to that?

COL VENTER: Correct.

MR NYOKA: What were those names if you can recall?

COL VENTER: Chair I already said that the names of thepersons were also written on the backs of the photographs, butI can unfortunately not remember the names.  I can't recall thenames of these three persons.

MR NYOKA: During that time were those names that you sawor read about appearing at any stage in those lists that you hadat Vlakplaas?

COL VENTER: Chair no.  I think he's referring to theTREVETS list. At that stage I was not involved with TREVETS, Iwas at C1 in Vlakplaas, I would therefore not know whether thenames were on this list.

MR NYOKA: Do you know how the PE special branch had receivedinformation that three activists were going to go to the PortElizabeth airport, do you know how that information was received?

COL VENTER: ......(no interpretation) (Tape 3B ends.)

MR NYOKA: .... was firstly to interrogate them, secondlyto obtain information from them, thirdly to remove them from thearea and fourthly to neutralise their involvement, were you toldbefore their arrests where they would be removed
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to?

COL VENTER: No Chair, I've already indicated that atthe ocean where I met them, I was told that I had to enquire atCradock and then I would be taken to the place where they werekept in detention, I did not know exactly where this place wasgoing to be.

MR NYOKA: What was meant by, 'neutralise their involvement'? What did that mean?

COL VENTER: It would have meant to remove them from thearea where they were actively involved in the unrest and the activitiesof that time, that is to remove them out of the area.

MR NYOKA: Perhaps to a place where they are not known,is that correct?

COL VENTER: Correct.

MR NYOKA: You did not say that Cradock, where there aremany activists is a place where they are known, like the GoniweThree?