Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

CHAIRPERSON: "Scant demands"

MR VISSER: Or "Scant demands"  Well, "scant" just doesn't seem to fit in Mr Chairman but anyway be that as it may, that's what stands here - what is written here
"Scants demands were met"
Now that is by way of introduction.  Over the page we read as follows:
"A new leadership emerged.  This strategy did not work because the security police alleged that the old COSAS members were hiding behind PESCO to further their aims.  As part of the onslaught by the State, there was a deployment of a senior police officer, one Colonel Gerrit Erasmus"
	Now I think it is important to mention that in 1979 when the then Colonel Goosen who used to be heading this region, was transferred to Pretoria, he was replaced by one Colonel Gerrit Erasmus from Pretoria.  Now the reason that we're mentioning that is the tactics and the intensity of repression increased.  
	We saw a different means that were used, that were employed by the special branch towards the various organisations that were working in Port Elizabeth.  We believe that it is important for you to take note of that evidence.
	Mr Erasmus, you will remember that I've worked through this evidence with you.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, is that the only part of that bundle you're going to use.

MR VISSER: That is the only part I feel that I want to bring under your attention and which I intend to use.

ADV DE JAGER: The reason why I'm asking this is, if we have to make a copy of this whole bundle, is it necessary because you've handed it in as a bundle?

MR VISSER: From our point of view, we're not going to refer to anything else.

ADV DE JAGER: Will it be possible for you then to make copies of these two pages you've referred to and we will keep the bundle here should there be any other references but for record purposes - I think if Mr Phosa would need the whole bundle it would be made available to him but he's only using two pages and I think those two pages should as soon as possible be distributed.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we find that the suggestion is an immanently sensible one and certainly we will make the copies for you and certainly also you may keep the document.  I don't know whether my learned friend Mr Booyens may not want - wish to refer to other portions of it.  However that may be, we fall in with the suggestion of Advocate de Jager.

ADV SANDI: Mr Visser, can we make a request to you that whenever you intend to use documents, you give us a copy so that we can go though and see the context in which whatever portion of the document is being used, that would make things a lot easier.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, we've had this argument before, with respect but I hear what is said and we certainly do make our best endeavours to always provide you with copies of what we wish to use.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you need provide us with copies Mr Visser, where the document is as long as this one is and where it emanates from the TRC.  What I think you can do is notify us sufficiently in advance so that we can arrange to obtain copies from the TRC.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we do have to apologise, we were under the impression that you would have the copies.  Clearly we were wrong in being under that impression but we do apologise.
	In any event, if I can continue.   Mr Erasmus you've listened to what Mr Mondi has said, what is your comment regarding this evidence?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: This evidence is not correct, I was transferred from Pietermaritzburg to Port Elizabeth to replace Colonel Dreyer as divisional commissioner.

MR VISSER: Were you aware of any strategy of the Government in transferring you to Port Elizabeth in order to suppress people or organisations?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: There was no specific strategy in this regard.  It was our job, it was our instruction from the State to monitor organisations which were dangerous to the State and we would say if there were organisations like that, they had to be regarded to be suppressed.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, something completely different.  You came to Port Elizabeth - first I want to finish with this document, what was the first experience you had when you started in the division Eastern Province when you started with your new post?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, my experience or my observation was - to put it better, the security situation in this region was definitely not what it should be, in other words the atmosphere was tense.  Why I'm saying this is that I was taken on an orientation tour and when we came to the Walmer residential area, we stopped there.  It was the first time I visited that area.
	Some of the members of my staff took me to this area and one of my staff members started talking while we were getting out of the car, with a Black man.  The next moment I heard an explosion right behind me, I looked around and saw that there was half a brick lying right behind me.  I did not see the person who had thrown this brick.

MR VISSER: At that stage, what did people tell you regarding access of the police regarding policing in the Black townships in the Eastern Province?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: They told me that this specific area which was lying next to the White Walmer residential area, could not be policed because policemen were not allowed into that area.

MR VISSER: At a later stage, did you become aware of the strategy of the ANC to establish the so-called "no-go" areas, to prevent the police or the army to enter these areas?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that was brought under my attention.

MR VISSER: What was your experience regarding Port Elizabeth and the vicinities regarding these "no-go" area?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: These areas were distributed and it was just imported for certain areas, it was not a total "no-go" strategy at that stage.

MR VISSER: To jump then to January 1980 as you've mentioned in paragraph 20 of the document, you experienced the boycott at the Ford factory in Port Elizabeth.  What was the cause of that strike?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: As it goes in all strikes, there were people who wanted to strike and other people who wanted to work.  The people who did not want to strike were intimidated not to go to work and some of them who tried to go to work, their houses were burnt down.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, in paragraph 20 you refer to a quote titled: - incorrectly spelt Mr Chairman, you will forgive us - it was published in Seshowa in 1987 and in this it is mentioned amongst others, that there were clashes between the police and students.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: In your experience as a policeman in Port Elizabeth, that aspect of the revolution, did it have a low or a high profile - these clashes between the students and the police?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It was a high profile.

MR VISSER: Can you give us a bit of a background, which organisations were involved?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The organisation which was mainly involved in this aspect was COSAS.

MR VISSER: And Mr Moditswa mentioned that PESCO was also involved.  Can you please tell us whether his summary of the situation was that the one was only a smoke screen for the other?  Was that also your opinion?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: We did not think that, it was only another name, it was the Port Elizabeth Student Council - Congress.

MR VISSER: And the conflict which was caused because of students and the activities of scholars, did that give rise to any violence and damage to property?  Was there any damage done?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, it was.

MR VISSER: These student activities - if you could refer to it like that, what was the intensity in 1981/82, can you still remember?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: These student boycotts went on continuously up to the middle of 1982.

MR VISSER: Were there any bomb attacks during this time?