Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Moerane is putting to you, do you agree with the notion that it was important that the versions be consistent?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I agree with that Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: The people who were involved in that second incident and who are applicants for amnesty, are the following, W/O Pienaar, who has already testified, yourself, W/O Hayes, Mr Barnard, Theron, Rorich and van Zweel?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And these seven persons are not attached and were not attached at that time, to Vlakplaas?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: They were serving in what then was the Eastern Transvaal?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And as I pointed out earlier on, these are the persons whose versions of the second incident are identical, word for word.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I have not seen the applications of the other applicants, so I cannot comment on that.

MR MOERANE: Well hasn't there been an attempt also in these proceedings, to try and present the consistent version with regard to the second incident, in fact with regard to both incidents?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No.

MR MOERANE: When did you consider for the first time applying for amnesty?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Chairperson, I think that it was right at the beginning when the amnesty process was announced.  All of us had to consider it automatically but as I put it initially, there were certain obstacles which prevented us from applying because we were not certain about the fairness of the process, whether or not we would enjoy legal representation, these were all matters which were cleared up much later.

MR MOERANE: Well, can you give us a time, a year and a month?

CHAIRPERSON: A time for what, that they first considered ...(indistinct)

MR MOERANE: That he first considered making an application.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: From the very beginning when the amnesty process was announced, Chairperson, I realised that we would have to apply for amnesty and so therefore from the very beginning it was a consideration.

MR MOERANE: I beg your pardon.  When did you become aware of the fact that the lies that you had told to the Inquest Magistrate, Piet Retief, had been exposed as such?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I really cannot say that I became aware that it had been exposed.  I really don't know if somebody else has another version of that.

MR MOERANE: When did you become aware that Col de Kock was, so to speak, spilling the beans?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I think that it was during his trial but I am not certain, however, I would venture to say that it was during his trials that he stated that he was involved in the incident and that the facts are not similar to the way that they were presented to the Inquest.

MR MOERANE: Do you recall when that was?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No I cannot remember when that was.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know when the trial was, was it 1994.

MR HATTINGH: I think it started in 1995.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MOERANE: And you say that the only reason that you made this application at the 11th hour was because there hadn't been a certainty or an assurance that you'd receive legal representation?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Among others yes, that was one of our motivations.

MR MOERANE: What are the other reasons?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Because we didn't know what the process would involve at that stage, there was a great measure of uncertainty.  It appeared to me at that stage that it would only be Security Force members who would be applying and that other parties such as the ANC and the PAC and so forth would not be applying and to me it created the impression of a biased process and it was only much later that I was persuaded that it would be in our best interests to apply for amnesty.

MR MOERANE: And you say that you only received that assurance at the beginning of December?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that was the final assurance.  That was when the generals and staff addressed us and told us that it would be in all of our best interests to apply for amnesty and that led to the final decision then.

MR MOERANE: Are you implying therefore that because of those considerations, you couldn't have brought your application a few months earlier?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That would be the major motivation.

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, what is the relevance of these questions?  There are a number of people that applied for amnesty even after this cut-off date was extended.

CHAIRPERSON: And also we've heard in previous hearings, there was this address by the Generals, there was - it was sort of like a, many, many policemen, in fact I think just about all of them, held back until there was this address given by the Generals and then it started, so it would be extremely difficult for us, Mr Moerane, to find that there's any huge significance in the fact that the application was late.  It was after all in time and I'm certainly aware of the fact that many of them waited for this assurance to come from the Generals.

MR MOERANE: Yes, Mr Chairman, I wasn't aware of those developments and in any event as far as that issue is concerned I don't have any further questions.
Mr Deetlefs, with regard to the planning for the operation of the 12th, you were involved with Col de Kock?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I was.

MR MOERANE: And this particular vehicle that was to be used, did you have to give any approval or blessing to that?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No Chairperson when I arrived there the vehicle was already at Piet Retief.  It had been arranged through Middelburg by W/O Pienaar.

MR MOERANE: But you were involved together with Col de Kock in the briefing of Sgt Manzini.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: When I arrived at the scene let me just say it was already dark.  I arrived late that night and the major proportion of the planning had already been finished off.  They simply discussed it with me and we went through it again to confirm all aspects and to determine whether or not there were any loose threads but at that stage Manzini had already been thoroughly briefed and I simply confirmed with him that he understood exactly what this was about.

MR MOERANE: Incidentally, where did you find them, Manzini and the others?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: At W/O Pienaar's office in Piet Retief.

MR MOERANE: Had you been to the scene with Manzini?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Not before the incident.

MR MOERANE: Now from W/O Pienaar's office, did you then move to the scene?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: What happened at the scene?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is when the incident as I have sketched it took place.

MR MOERANE: No, no, I'm talking about going to the scene with Manzini.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I did not visit the scene before the incident with Manzini separately.  The only way that I arrived at the scene was with the actual operation, I did not visit the scene with Manzini before the time or discuss any points regarding the scene with him before the time.

MR MOERANE: So do you know whether or not anybody went to the scene with Manzini beforehand?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: W/O Pienaar informed me that he had accompanied him to the point.

MR MOERANE: You do not know what transpired there, what he was told, what he was shown?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: As I understand it, Chairperson, and I can only rely on hearsay here, it was pointed out exactly where he should bring the vehicle to a standstill and where we would then have taken up positions.

MR MOERANE: You were a senior officer there.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Why did you decide to go along with that plan to ambush?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: At that stage it appeared to me to be the proper plan.

MR MOERANE: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE