Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR LYSTER: Mr Malan it is part of our job, as you are aware to investigate the motives and perspectives of role players such as yourself, in the conflicts of the past. And you have added valuable information to our store of motives and perspectives. And tomorrow we will resume and your attorney has requested if you could start a little later tomorrow morning because he has an appointment with the Archbishop. And I think we said that we agree to start at nine thirty. Perhaps before we break, we could enquire from Mr Penzhorn, I understand you are representing Mr P.W. Botha and whether you're able to tell us whether he will be here tomorrow because we have arranged, as you know to continue with General Malan. And as far as you know or are you able to enlighten us as to what we can expect? Because I don't want to tell General Malan that we will start with him at half past nine if?

MR PENZHORN: Mr Chairman as far as that is concerned I think if we can start with General Malan at nine thirty tomorrow morning I think that should be in order. I see no reason why we couldn't continue tomorrow morning with General Malan.

MR LYSTER: Perhaps you'll be able to be in a position to tell us tomorrow what the situation with Mr Botha is.

MR PENZHORN: I hope to be in a position.

MR LYSTER: Well not quite but I'll accept it. Thank you very much.

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman I have one problem that I have to record and that's this. That traditionally once a witness has taken the oath it's hands-off. Now I wish to record that there were some matters that came up during the day which I have to attend to in consultation with my client. And I just hope that there won't be any objection against it but for what it's worth I ask your leave to consult with General Malan on those fresh issues that cropped up today. If Chris doesn't have any problem, I'll be very grateful. Thank you very much.

MR LYSTER: Could we just bear in mind that we have a bit of a time constraint and.

MR MARITZ: No, no. I'm just saying that I'm seeking leave to consult with him.

MR LYSTER: Oh I see.

MR MARITZ: He's under oath now and I'm hands-off, I can't do it without telling you. That's why I'm saying (...indistinct)

MR LYSTER: We will adjourn until tomorrow morning nine thirty. Thank you very much.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION ON 5 DECEMBER 1997

MR LYSTER: Thank you and good morning. In terms of the Commission's original agenda for the two days we were to hear evidence this morning from Mr P.W. Botha. We understand from Mr Botha's lawyers that a meeting took place this morning and perhaps if you can just place on record Mr Penzhorn as to whether your client, Mr Botha will be present today or not?

MR PENZHORN: Mr Chairman, as I told the Commission yesterday at the conclusion of these hearings, my brief here today is on behalf of, to appear on behalf of General Malan, together with Mr Maritz. As far as Mr Botha is concerned Mr Chairman I have just come from a meeting of the chairman of the Truth Commission and I have advised the chairman of the Truth Commission that in fact Mr Botha will not be appearing today. I think for the record that is all I have to say.

MR LYSTER: We note then for the record that Mr Botha is not present. And that matter is I understand from you being dealt with by the chair, the deputy chair of the Commission?

MR PENZHORN: That's correct Mr Chairman. I think it's the matter has been fully discussed with the chairman and the deputy chairman.

MR LYSTER: We will then proceed with today's hearing with General Malan. We finished off yesterday afternoon with General Malan having given us a short input regarding some new perspectives on the role of the Defence Force. And he concluded that at 5 p.m. yesterday and we will now again start with questions relating to General Malan's evidence by Mr McAdam.

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, before Mr McAdam proceeds may I just record the following? Last night I think it was in a region of about 6:15, last evening, we were given additional documentation. We have looked at it and we are somewhat prepared to deal with it. I wish to place on record that we are in no way obstructive. That we are making every endeavour to make the proceedings proceed as speedily as possible. But I would just record the misgiving that I have that possibly my client won't be able to deal with these matters as comprehensively as he may, as he could possibly have done had he had more time to prepare. And I would rather beg you to bear that in mind when the fresh documentation is considered.
 May I also record that we've been handed a document which apparently relates to military writing. As far as that is concerned, as you well know my client is a career, or was a career officer. He spent all his life, apart from the ten years in politics, all his life in the army. And I dare say that if someone were qualified to give you specialised meanings as used in military terms, it would be my client. But I would once again request you to bear in mind that there's been no preparation whatsoever on this document which apparently relates to military writing. Thank you very much.

MR LYSTER: Thank you Mr Maritz. If General Malan is unable, unwilling to answer questions on the basis that they relate to documentation which he has not had a time to comprehensively look at them we will certainly bear that in mind and will not require him to answer questions on that point. Mr Daniel Malan you are still under oath and I ask Mr McAdam then, oh sorry.

MR MCADAM: Mr Chairman if I could just put on record. I confirm the correctness of the fact that at approximately six 'o clock last night these documents were served on Mr Maritz. I'd also point out that the intention is that should it be necessary for any of these documents to be referred to or the General asked to comment there on this will be raised before any questions are put and furthermore it's not our intention to go into any detail on these late documents. If it's necessary to put a question or two we will alert the General to that fact and we'll take it from there.
 As far as the questioning is concerned. I came into the matter at a late stage due to the resignation of the person who lead the evidence at all the proceeding hearings. There are essentially two things. One is the state security policies per se and secondly the military involvement, in so far as it can be linked to state security policies. Now Mr van Zyl has done enormous research and preparation on the former aspects and I propose then that questions relating to that issue be put by Mr van Zyl and that I would then confine myself to purely questions that are of a military nature. And it's not an attempt to try and either wear the General down by war of attrition or to have two bites at the cherry. They are two separate themes. We've crossed notes to see we don't overlap and it would be more convenient for Mr van Zyl to commence and then I'll proceed once he's completed his section.

MR LYSTER: Okay Mr van Zyl.