Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR MARAIS: And he also obtained information just as you did?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes that's correct.

MR MARAIS: And you don't know how he succeeded in getting the information from Kondile, which method he used or which pressure he exerted?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: By interrogating him I don't know whether he promised him anything.

MR MARAIS: But you personally didn't tell him if you give me the information then I can have these wonderful things happen to you?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR MARAIS: Do you think that it was practice that Mr du Plessis would have done something like that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I don't know, I cannot reply to that.

MR MARAIS: Are you saying you don't know what the practice of interrogation was during that time?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I know.   This man was in a stage of his recruitment as an informer and the recruitment process was dealt with by Capt du Plessis and this man gave information because he had already started cooperating and this information was followed up.

MR MARAIS: I understand that but what I am asking you is, did you know what the practice was, which means you used in order to obtain this information, because you surely would no just tell the man please give me the information and he'd say no thank you or thank you here's the information.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: When he was recruited and he gave his cooperation then there was a reward.

MR MARAIS: So you knew that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I knew that.

MR MARAIS: But you didn't know whether Captain du Plessis offered him a reward?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I don't know.

MR MARAIS: You yourself was it within your powers to offer him a reward?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Well if I had an informer that I had registered I could have gone to my superior and I could have received a reward to give to him for his cooperation if I felt that he deserved it.

MR MARAIS: And your evidence before the Commission is that it wasn't necessary for you personally to offer Kondile a reward to get the information that you did get?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No it wasn't necessary for me to do so.

MR MARAIS: How long did you interrogate him before you became aware of the fact that Captain du Plessis was recruiting him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: The recruitment process started from the first day that he was being interrogated and this continued and the information also continued and we worked on this information as a team and I could see in which direction things were going.  He trusted Capt du Plessis and vice versa and with the recruitment I did not get involved personally.

MR MARAIS: So from the interrogation on the first day you were aware of the fact that Capt du Plessis was recruiting this man?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes it was clearly visible, this man cooperated from the start.

ADV GCABASHE: Could I just ask Mr Raath, did you also give Mr Kondile paper on which to write reports to you?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I never gave him any paper.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you ever receive written reports from him you know as part of his cooperation with you?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No, notes which were made I made myself as he made things known to me.

ADV GCABASHE: The room that you interrogated him in was it the same room that he used to sleep in?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: At no stage did you find any paper on him, you personally?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No, I personally never found anything.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you at any stage see him give a written report to Mr du Plessis?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I did not.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MARAIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  At which stage did you withdraw from the interrogation?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: If I can remember correctly it was after the identification in the Transkei and when I heard from Capt du Plessis that he had recruited the man and that he was his handler and that's when I did it, when I withdrew.

MR MARAIS: After he was recruited was he recruited at the stage when he was already in Humansdorp?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I would say that the recruitment that it can require a lengthy period, but it had started there.

MR MARAIS: More specifically was he recruited at Humansdorp already?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No in Jeffrey's Bay.

MR MARAIS: Were you present or were you assisting in the interrogation from the beginning to the end?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MARAIS: And you are saying that what you saw from the first day that you could see that he was busy turning?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MARAIS: And that he gave his cooperation from the first day?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MARAIS: Capt du Plessis says at one stage it was necessary to hit him with his open hand and with his fists.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I never saw that.

MR MARAIS: And he found it necessary to do so in order to get his cooperation.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That can be possible but I was not present.

ADV GCABASHE: And did Sizwe Kondile never say to you Capt du Plessis was here yesterday and what a clap, he made no comment to you at all?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No he mentioned nothing to me.

MR MARAIS: Thank you.  Did you get the impression when he was transferred to Jeffrey's Bay that things were going easier, that the recruitment had been finalised?  No before the recruitment was completed did you have the impression that things were going easier now, that things were coming to an end and that the recruitment will be completed?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I can't say that things were nearing a certain point now, but at one stage he told me that the person had been recruited now.  I can't say at which stage.  It's not easy to pinpoint a specific stage.

MR MARAIS: Could you get the impression from Mr Kondile himself?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes he cooperated closely with du Plessis, they often spent time together.  They sat talking there.

MR MARAIS: And when you interrogated him in Jeffrey's Bay was it easier for you too?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes at that stage the identification had been done and I have completed my task.

MR MARAIS: How long on average did you spend per day to interrogate him, or separately your joint attempts, either individually or jointly, how long was he interrogated?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was usually normal office hours.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I didn't catch the answer to the last question.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: They spent the whole day interpreting him, normal office hours.

MR MARAIS: Do I have to repeat the question, did you hear that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: He was interrogated periodically.

MR MARAIS: And if I understand it correctly you interrogated him for almost a month, a little bit less than one month?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct, yes.  Initially the interrogation was done and the information obtained and later on he was not integrated so much.

MR MARAIS: You see what I am wondering about is how much information did Kondile have that it had taken so long for him, considering the fact that he was cooperating that it had taken a month to give you the information he had, was it volumes full of information?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I would put it in this way.  The information I got and the follow-up work I did in Transkei I have completed my task.  Du Plessis testified according to what happened afterwards.

MR MARAIS: What I am saying is now you don't want to answer this.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That what I have interrogated him for took about two weeks and the follow-up and what du Plessis testified about I can't say.  Perhaps whether he's obtained bundles and bundles of information I don't know.

MR MARAIS: But you would have known if there was bundles full of information and was there?