Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-26

<UNKNOWN>: Unfortunately it is true that the experiences have left their mark, and I do not want to minimise those experiences that she's been through, but nonetheless there is the thesis that perhaps this entire unfortunate chain of events was sparked by an over-reaction to rumours, suspicions, paranoias.  Could that possibly be true?

PAUL VERRYN: That could be true.

<UNKNOWN>: Now at that time - in the political context of the day - if I made the assertion that there was a high degree of paranoia about informers, spies, impimpis

PAUL VERRYN: Yes, absolutely.

<UNKNOWN>: And as you said in your evidence earlier, other powers were quite liable to set people up in the public eye as informers.

PAUL VERRYN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And unfortunately the results for those individuals that were set up could be quite problematic, indeed fatal?

PAUL VERRYN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And you have knowledge of such incidents?

PAUL VERRYN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chair, I believe I've made my point. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: You have not got your machine on.

<UNKNOWN>: Bishop Verryn, you said that you returned to the Manse on the 28th of December.

PAUL VERRYN: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you leave again that day?

PAUL VERRYN: Yes, I left - I was only there for about an hour or two.

<UNKNOWN>: What time of the day were you there?

PAUL VERRYN: It must have been mid-morning to midday, round about that time.

<UNKNOWN>: Miss Falati in her evidence says that the boys were taken to Mrs Mandela's house on that day, the 28th of December, would you have any knowledge as to whether this might be true or not?

PAUL VERRYN: I can't confirm that because I wasn't there, and the first I heard of it was on the 31st.  I thought it was the 29th. I could be wrong.

<UNKNOWN>: The second issue concerns this question of Stompie being an informer and you've given evidence already about the fact that you had come across a meeting where this was being discussed.  Is it so that you were concerned about the fact that people who were staying at the Manse should be accountable for their movements and should inform people when they came and left the Manse?

PAUL VERRYN: Yes, let me put it this way, there always has been a reasonable amount of movement backwards and forwards, but if they were not going to be there overnight - it was important, in case there was a detention, that we knew about it - if somebody went missing.
 That was the time that I thought was perceived as being a very vulnerable time, so somebody didn't come back to the mission house and we didn't know about that person not coming back, then we needed to start informing families, and doing something like that.  Let me take you - can I take you a bit further on that?

<UNKNOWN>: Please do.

PAUL VERRYN: As far as Stompie was concerned, there were sometimes difficulties with this, he came and went, struggled with that aspect of our just accounting to one another, and because I knew of the sensitivity around him, I was worried about that.

<UNKNOWN>: In fact Miss Falati says that a badge was put on him on which was written: "Don't go". Do you have any recollection of that?

PAUL VERRYN: Stompie had a very strong friendship with some people in Priscilla Jana's office, and that's where he used to go to.  They mothered him while he was away from home, and so he used to come back with all sorts of funny contraptions, you know, like a badge or a funny watch or a toy or something.
 The peculiar thing that one has to remember is that, on the one had you've got really a child who hasn't been a child, he hasn't had the opportunity of being a child, and yet in this 14-year-old you've got an adult who's had to deal with issues that some adults never look at or deal with in their entire lives - that was what was in this person, so the badge, yes, "Don't go".  
 And I can understand the paranoia that started coming around in the house: "Where was he getting these things, was he being paid by the police".

<UNKNOWN>: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR KADES: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, Norman Kades on behalf of the Asvat family.
 Bishop, were you acquainted with the late Doctor Abu Bakker Asvat?

PAUL VERRYN: I was.

MR KADES: And do you recall whether you saw him subsequent to the abduction of these youths from the Manse on the 29th of December?

PAUL VERRYN: No, I did not.  I saw him during that year at an informal settlement in Soweto where we were trying to organise some help for one of the communities there. And he was one of the prime workers in that community.

MR KADES: Bishop, after the murder of Doctor Asvat, did you speak to any members of the Crisis Committee concerning his murder and the rumours that were circulating at the time concerning how he'd come to meet his end?

PAUL VERRYN: I had a brief conversation with Beyers Naude, because I was at his house on the Saturday morning, I can't remember what for, but I met with him and spoke to him just very briefly about it.  There had also been an allegation in one of the papers that the church was in some way implicated in that murder.

MR KADES: Do you know whether the Crisis Committee was in possession of any information concerning the death of Doctor Asvat?

PAUL VERRYN: I don't know.

MR KADES: Was such information - you were never made party to such information if indeed it existed?

PAUL VERRYN: No, I was not made a part of it.

MR KADES: Did you know anything - did you receive any information at all from any members of the Crisis Committee concerning any of their investigations into the death of Doctor Asvat?

PAUL VERRYN: No.

MR KADES: Thank you.

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Chairman, if I may.
 Bishop Verryn, my name is David Unterhalter, I act for Dudu Chili.  Are you aware of an attack on the Chili house in which the house was burnt down in February 1989?

PAUL VERRYN: I am.

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you know of efforts that were made thereafter to take Dudu Chili into protection and hiding because she feared for her life from members of the Mandela United Football Club?

PAUL VERRYN: I am aware of it.

MR UNTERHALTER: Could you tell us what efforts were made in that regard?

PAUL VERRYN: I'm not too clear about it, but the things that are clear in my mind is that I was with my lawyer, I think on the night that the attack took place, and I received a call - if I remember correctly, from Miss Chili in which - it was like somebody who was in profound fear and someone who - it really sounded as if she was facing death.
 And there was another gentleman who was Eric Engeleza, who was a Justice and Reconciliation field worker for the Witwatersrand Council of Churches, who also contacted me, but we were in a place of impasse because we couldn't gain access to the place.  After that, as I understand it, we sought a place of refuge for her and I think it might have been Eric that might have arranged that.  I'm not quite sure who did that, that's  what's not clear to me.

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you, Bishop Verryn.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr [inaudible]?

<UNKNOWN>: I have no further questions, thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: [Inaudible] Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you, Chairperson.
  Bishop Verryn, I just want to ask a question that has to do. not with your sexual orientation at all because we've already indicated to your counsel that we are not going to look into that.  But were you married at the time of these incidents?

PAUL VERRYN: No.

MR NTSEBEZA: And, as you have testified, you shared beds with these youngsters, do you consider that the fact that you were not married and it was known that you were sharing beds with the youngsters, that that could offend in some people's minds the view that you were homosexual?

PAUL VERRYN: I'm very aware of that, and I'm even more aware of it now that all the allegations have been made.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.