Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV FORD: You are not aware of that?  Are you suggesting that 
people detained under the Emergency Regulations, could have 
visitors at will?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And they could have access to their legal 
representatives at will?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: I see.  We will come back to that Mr Nieuwoudt.  If I 
could then deal with the next sentence in this paragraph I was 
dealing with at 328.  "The matter was further complicated by the 
fact that these members possibly had knowledge of covert offensive 
and defensive operations and could exert a certain influence on the 
other black members at the Security Branch?  That sound to me Mr 
Nieuwoudt, like you didn't really know whether they had, you simply 
speak of possibly had knowledge, you weren't really certain of 
whether these people had information in this regard?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: All I knew at that stage about the covert 
operations in which he had been involved, was the Swaziland one 
and the Lesotho one, where he had been involved.  Where all four of 
them had been involved.

ADV FORD: What did you mean by to exert a specific influence on 
the black members, what did you mean by that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is what I said at the outset, that if he 
defected or exposed information and structures, then they would be 
able to compile a proper profile of the members in the Security 
Branch.  And that could be severely prejudicial, that was my view.

ADV FORD: You are not talking about them trying to exercise 
some influence amongst their colleagues by trying to turn their 
colleagues as well within the Security Branch, you are not 
suggesting that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I was more concerned about the damage to 
the Intelligence network and threat to informers.

ADV FORD: Now at what stage did this take place, your second 
visit to Brigadier Gilbert, how much longer?  A month later, two 
months later?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't have an independent recollection, but it 
could have been a month before that, before December.

ADV FORD: So from July 1989 through to shall we say November 
or early November or end of October 1989, Mgoduka and the others 
were allowed to continue as normal?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV FORD: There was no attempt to limit their involvement with 
Security Force activities?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: No attempt to keep them away from safe houses and 
other such premises?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Presumably the development of your Information 
Network and the recruiting of informers, is an ongoing thing.  
People are being recruited all the time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: There was no attempt made to prevent them from 
acquiring knowledge relating to the identity of any new informers?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Why not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I didn't.

ADV FORD: Well, didn't you think it important to try and limit the 
damage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, they weren't under my command at that 
stage.

ADV FORD: Well, under who were they?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They were under the, or some of them were 
under the Investigation team and some of them under the command 
of the Black Affairs Unit.

ADV FORD: Mgoduka was under Roelofse, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Who was under Colonel Roelofse?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mapipa and Faku.

ADV FORD: And who was Mgoduka's senior?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Colonel Scheepers.

ADV FORD: Did you go and speak to these senior officers?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: To tell them of your suspicions?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Why not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I have already said, my Unit reported 
directly to Brigadier Gilbert.  If he thought it was necessary, he 
could have done it, I didn't know about that.

ADV FORD: Now, your next attempt if we understand your 
application and your evidence, was that you were going to - I am 
reading page 329, paragraph 24, the purpose was that I would on 
gradual basis by means of discussions with these four people, would 
communicate and try and illicit information from them about these 
activities in order to determine the graveness of the risk.  Now 
precisely what chance, as subtle as you may have been Mr 
Nieuwoudt, did you think there was of you getting these people to 
reveal their involvement with the ANC to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was an attempt which I made to have 
discussions with them.

ADV FORD: I understand that, you have told us that.  I am asking 
you what possible prospect did you foresee of getting them to talk 
to you about that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I thought they possibly trusted me enough 
because at that stage we had never had any arguments or 
altercations.

ADV FORD: You thought at this stage where there already had 
been letters written to the ANC, there had been these talks about 
feelers being put out, there had been talks about going over to the 
ANC, you thought they were going to say to you Mr Nieuwoudt, we 
actually think of going over to the ANC, what do you think about 
that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I don't think they would have said that.

ADV FORD: Well, what did you expect from them Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is what I thought at that stage.  I thought 
they would perhaps let slip some bit of information which would 
give me some clue, make sense.

ADV FORD: Now, you then go on to deal with the Lesotho, where 
one of your informants, it appears, advised that the ANC was fully 
aware of the location of our specific facilities and that the issue of 
infiltration had been exposed.  Now, if I understand your evidence, 
you escribed that to Mgoduka and or the others?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: So it was quite clear to you then that a significant 
amount of information had already been conveyed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: You had no way of knowing how much information 
had been conveyed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, but as I have already said I did not believe 
that they had passed on all the information that was at their 
disposal, to the ANC, but the knowledge they had of this specific 
operation, they did pass on.

ADV FORD: Well, what led you to that belief?  What possible 
reason did you have for believing that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I thought that all four of them were involved, 
and the next day a person was arrested in Swaziland and I didn't 
hear anything from them.  I later found out after they came back, 
that they had been in Quatro.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt, you are not answering my question.  I 
am asking you what led you to believe that they hadn't disclosed all 
the information available to them, to the ANC?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I have explained there is a lot of other 
information, it would have taken quite some time to debrief them 
and to extract the information from them, so they would have had to 
be physically present at the ANC to give them all the information 
and that is why I believed that they didn't pass on all the 
information.

ADV FORD: So you are saying that they had probably given over 
everything which they knew on an off the cuff basis, but a trained 
interrogated could have gotten more out of them, is that what you 
are saying?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Were the Security Police in the habit of allowing 
trained ANC interrogators into places of detention to interrogate 
detainees?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: So what possible chance was there then of any 
interrogation taking place if they had been detained in terms of the 
Security Regulations?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I said the could still send messages 
through.