Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes, I was a political organisation.

MS MTANGA: Which organisation was that?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: The ANC.

MS MTANGA: Is it your evidence that the applicant only started shooting when he questioned Mr Ndovela as to why he was looking at him?  Is that when he started shooting at you?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: No further leading of evidence, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

MR DE KLERK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I just quickly want to ask a few questions of my client.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Sebenza, if I understand you correctly, you agree with the fact that yourself and maybe other people met at some or other place in town, Port Shepstone, met the applicant? - on that specific day.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I do not quite get you.  The area in which Mr Mzobe and myself were, there were also other people that I did not know.  When he found me I was with Brian and we chatted and had meat.  There were other people around, such people whom I did not know and we left those people in that place, and I was not with those people I was just with Brian with whom I left after we had had meat.

MR DE KLERK: How many of the people under the tree were initially in town together with you and Brian?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Which people are you referring to?

MR DE KLERK: Who was in town where you braaied meat and where you met the applicant?  Were any of those people that were with you there in town where you braaied meat and spoke to the applicant and greeted him and so forth, any of those people, were any of them under the tree?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: No, none of those people were in town.  I did explain that when we were under that tree, I was with Brian and then the applicant arrived.  That is when we were in town, but when we went to Kwakanjaza there were four of us because we found these other people in the taxi rank, they had not been with us at the butchery.

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry, Mr de Klerk.
	When you met the applicant in town was Brian with you?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: And Mr Ndovela?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: No, he was not.

MR SIBANYONI: And Zulu?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: He was not there either.

MR SIBANYONI: Right.  And then this meat was braaied, not in town but at the other place you call Baboi, am I correct?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: It's not correct.  We had the meat at the butchery, that is outside the butchery.  There is a place where you can braai meat outside the butchery.  The meat I referred to in Baboi was different.  We bought another pack of meat which we were going to have when we arrived at Baboi.  That is when Ndovela and Zulu were present.  They were not with us in town.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr de Klerk, I wanted to clarify that.

MR DE KLERK: If I understand your evidence correctly, in town when you met the applicant, there were only nice things discussed between yourselves and the applicant, there was nothing bad said to him?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: That is correct.

MR DE KLERK: So there was no reason for the applicant to later attack you, is that what you're saying?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: That is correct.

MR DE KLERK: Did you hear anybody out of your group or in the area where you were, saying anything bad or derogatory towards the applicant?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Let me explain it this way.  In the group that I was in there were three people, it was myself, Brian and the applicant.

MR DE KLERK: ...(indistinct) or anybody close to there, did you hear anything that day, somebody saying bad things about the applicant?

MR LAX: Mr de Klerk, maybe I can help you.  ...(intervention)

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: No.

MR LAX: Let's leave it.

MR DE KLERK: And if I understand you correctly, between yourself and the applicant there was actually quite a good relationship?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes, as far as I am aware we were on good terms.

MR DE KLERK: Could you see if the applicant was following you or was it purely by chance that he came to the same place where you were under the tree, after you've met him in town?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Even if it would have been able - we would have been able to see if he was following us, but it would have been difficult to think anything of that fact because I had no reason to believe that he could do anything to us, because even when he arrived having that gun in his hand I was not worried because I knew us to be on good terms.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt you for a moment. I think you have told us that this incident outside the butchery took place some time before one and that you left at 12H55.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And according to your statement it was about 3 o'clock when you were sitting in the shade of the tree.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes, around that time although I did not check the time, but it must have been around that time.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Mzobe the applicant, his instructions to me is that he denies that he spoke to you next to the butchery.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: The applicant talked to us near the butchery.  I would say that at that time the applicant should have seen us and recognised us because he spent about an hour with us outside that butchery.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you with the applicant at the butchery for the whole hour?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: As I mentioned before, it was around an hour, I cannot be too certain that it was an hour, but because of the length of time that we spent, I think it was around an hour.

MR DE KLERK: If I understand you correctly, Sir, this hour or time that you spent with the applicant, according to you next to the butchery, is quite an important factor and that is also why you testified regarding that today.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I don't quite understand.  If you refer to it as important, what are you comparing it to?

MR DE KLERK: No, I'm asking you, Sir, do you think it's important, that on the same day this killing took place you saw the applicant and he spoke to you and there was no animosity between you and the applicant in town?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Will you please look at page number 41, 42 and 43 of the bundle.  Is that your statement that you made to the police?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I don't have the statement with me.  Yes, it is.

MR DE KLERK: Yes, just confirm on the last page that it's your signature and so forth.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: And this was made, this statement was made on the 6th of May '93, correct?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I would not comment on the date because I cannot recall the incident, the date.  We are ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: Okay just to clarify, do you remember making such a statement?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR DE KLERK: Was the statement read back to you, just to make sure that you've explained everything?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes, it was read to me.  I read it myself.

MR DE KLERK: The only reason why I'm asking is that in this statement and I just want, maybe you can explain to the Committee, there's nothing said about this aspect that you met the applicant in town, there you spoke to him or were with him for at least an hour and there was no animosity between yourself and the applicant.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: The statement - when I wrote the statement I was at college and the person who took the statement did not have sufficient time.  He told me not to recall everything that had happened on that day, but to focus on the incident itself, because he was in a hurry and I also did not have sufficient time.  He had not made a prior appointment to come and see me, that is why we did not have sufficient time together.