Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

CHAIRPERSON: We've got two periods here, you first worked for the Security Branch and you were around Zastron and Wepener and subsequently you joined this unit of four in 1987, when did Mogomo tell you about this?  Between those two periods.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, it was when I was working with him.  Like I have explained that I was working in Wepener, I used to go with him at Wepener to gather information.  He knew a lot about politics ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thulo, you don't have to tell me a lot, I've just asked you between two periods when you were just an ordinary Security Branch member there, doing filing and going to Zastron and Wepener and subsequently you joined this unit of four in '87, when did you know about Mageta?  It's either "when I was with the Security Branch or when I joined the four", you don't have to tell a story.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is before I worked with this unit, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are you finished Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Now yesterday when you were talking about Nomasonto, you were being questioned about her and you were asked
"Did you have anything to do with the interviews"
and you gave an answer which struck me as quite unusual and you said: 
"It didn't take place in terms of any interviews", (then you used the word) "interrogations or any other thing".
These people were interrogated, why were they interrogated?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I do not have evidence that they were interrogated, because they were in another room.  I used to be with this person when I was instructed to guard her, so I don't know what happened in other places.

MR LAX: Well those are your words, I didn't say them.  That was your answer and you used that word.  So clearly they must have been, otherwise you wouldn't have used the word.  It's no good denying that you know anything about it, that was your answer.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not remember, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Yes.  So you're not willing to tell us about the interrogations?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There is no interrogation I can tell you about, Chairperson, because I don't know whether these people were interrogated or not.

MR LAX: Now, later on you were talking about Tax and you said that the four of you, that's Robertshaw, Jantjie, Jagga and yourself went to go and fetch Tax.  Now the question I have for you is, who was guarding Nomasonto and Betty Boom while you were doing this?  Because you've told us there was no-one else there besides the four of you.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: At that time when Betty was still there I used to guard her, but while she was with Nomasonto I don't know whether other members came over to guard these people, I cannot really say.

CHAIRPERSON: Please listen to the question, Mr Thulo, please, I implore you now, please listen to the question.  Would you restate your question, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: You made it quite clear in your evidence it was just the four of you there at the farm with these people, because I asked you this question once before, whether outsiders had come and you said
"No, no, it was just the four of us and in fact, the others hadn't left the place"
it was about you going home.  So the question remains, when the four of you went to Lesotho to fetch Tax Sejanamane, who guarded Nomasonto and Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't remember, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you leave from to fetch Tax Sejanamane?  Now we know you are attached to Ladybrand and you have these other people on the farm which you only knew when you took Ms Betty Boom to the farm and your duties were to, when the others were not around, that is members of your unit, you would be left to guard her.  You recall all that.  I want to know now, when you fetched Tax Sejanamane, from which place did you leave from?  I'm mindful that this farm is about four to five kilometres away from Ladybrand, as ...(inaudible) testified.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I will explain it this way, Chairperson.  I used to guard these people during the day and then at night I'll go home and when I go to work in the morning I will go to the office first, not to the farm, but if I was needed at the farm I would be told to go to the farm.  So when we went to fetch Tax, I was taken from the office, I was taken by Mr Robertshaw, Mr Jantjie and Mr Jagga.  They told me in the morning at the office that I should not go, because we are going to leave for Lesotho to fetch somebody there.  I don't know who was left at the farm, that is why I am unable to give you the names.

CHAIRPERSON: When you returned with Tax and took him to the farm, who did you find there, other than the two ladies, that is Ms Betty Boom and Ms Nomasonto Mashiya?  Who did you find other than those two?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not remember seeing other people there, Chairperson, because when we arrived there they all went into that room, because I was never allowed to enter that room.  When we arrive there they will take the person that we went to fetch into that room and then I will be directed to another one.

CHAIRPERSON: What I meant is that of your colleagues, the unit of four, was there not anybody there amongst those people?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: The person who was left at the farm at that time, Chairperson - may you please explain the question again, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I say you say you were fetched from the office to fetch Tax Sejanamane, would I be right, hearing you correctly?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you fetched Tax Sejanamane you took him to the farm where the others were, that is Nomasonto and Betty.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I say, upon your arrival, other than these two, who else did you find on the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: On our arrival there, Chairperson, it was myself, Mr Jantjie, Mr Jagga, Mr Robertshaw and Tax and the three of them together with Tax, went into the room, so I don't know who else was in that room.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that room locked where the two ladies were?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson, it wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were as usual directed to your separate room?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I'm sorry about that, you may proceed.

MR LAX: No that's fine.
	And just to be clear on this, you don't know what the legends that Jantjie and Jagga used in Lesotho were?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not understand your question, Chairperson.

MR LAX: When someone like you goes as a policeman into another country you pretend to be somebody besides yourself, you pretend to have an occupation or some description, you pretend - or no occupation as the case may be, but you certainly create what in Afrikaans is called "'n legende", what in English is called "a cover story" or "a legend".  I'm really surprised that you've never heard these terms before or you don't seem to understand them.  As someone who was a field worker in Lesotho it puzzles me that you don't understand them.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way, Mr Thulo, ...(intervention)

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, I do understand now, Chairperson.  If I remember well, Mike and Tony Jagga were known as vehicle theft police, not as security policemen, they were just looking for people who were stealing cars.

MR LAX: And you were known as an insurance salesman?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.