Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR LAX: When things slowed down and there was a changing of magazines and so-one, then you became aware of other people on your version, coming out, that's how you express it ...

MR STEPHENS: Ja.

MR LAX: And then they start shooting as well.

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed them shooting.  That's why I said, they could have been shooting beforehand, I'm not disputing that.

MR LAX: Ja.

MR STEPHENS: It's the same with other - the guys on the roof on the other side on that parapet, or whatever you call it - on a balcony, I never even noticed those people, but they were there.  That's why I'm saying, it could have been but I never noticed it, so I can only say what I saw.

MR LAX: Can I say this, if there were people standing in close proximity to this man with the AK47 that was on his haunches, would you have seen them?  Did you actually see them?

MR STEPHENS: I saw them, yes, I did see them, but I didn't - how can I say, thought that they were participating at that stage, because they were at the corner.

MR LAX: You see, the impression that you give us in your evidence is that you didn't see them, but you only noticed them later.

MR STEPHENS: Well that is basically what happened.  That's why I'm not saying they weren't there, they could have been there, but at that stage my focus was on the guy with the AK47.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR STEPHENS: They could have been there, but I never really noticed them as such, and that's why my evidence that I give might be a little misleading in a way - to the nitty gritty, to great detail, which I don't have unfortunately.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, when the guard with the AK47 opened fire, were you watching him, or were you attending to business?

MR STEPHENS: I was watching him.  Because when he started aiming I knew that something was gonna happen because the people were too far away for anything to really start happening, and for him to start aiming at them at that distance, I just thought something's gonna happen, and I don't realise why it's gonna happen.

MR BERGER: You never saw a marcher with an AK47 firing in King George Street between De Villiers and Plein?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately I did not it, no, and I never heard it either.

MR BERGER: You see, there was a witness, a Mr Diaz, who worked in a shop in King George Street, directly in your line of vision.

MR STEPHENS: I don't dispute that, he could have seen it, but I never saw it, so I can't say I did.  Like I say, I never heard it, whether he did or didn't.

MR BERGER: And he said that at the time this man with the AK47 was firing, the marchers were approximately 10 metres past his shop, Mr Diaz's shop, towards Plein Street, and he put his shop, the entrance to his shop as approximately 20 metres from the corner of De Villiers.  In other words, what he was say was, at the time that this man with the AK47 was firing, the marchers were approximately 30 metres into King George Street.

MR STEPHENS: Between De Villiers and ...

MR BERGER: Plein.

MR STEPHENS: Plein.  No, I disagree with that, because as they crossed, they weren't even 5/10 metres, they basically got up to the car when he started firing, so I would disagree with that.

MR BERGER: A Policeman by the name of Skippers also saw a marcher with an AK47 between De Villiers and Plein Street.

MR STEPHENS: He could have, I never saw it.

MR BERGER: Your evidence is that the guy with the AK47 opened up, after 15 to 20 seconds he reloaded, and the road was basically clear except for the people who were hiding behind the cars?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And was only then that the two other ANC people, the one in green and the one not in green, started firing.

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed.  They could have started firing before that, but I never noticed.

MR BERGER: If that was your evidence, you certainly would have told the inquest court that as well.

MR STEPHENS: But I just realised that whatever I'm saying now I'm getting held it, it's like the nitty gritty, we're going into great detail.  At that stage it was just you know, basically suddenly things were happening, I didn't realise that this was the way it was gonna lead.  I know I've got to watch what I say now, and I can't recall everything.

MR BERGER: For the record Mr Stephens, we went into great detail at the inquest as well.  You never heard any warning shots being fired, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: Nope.

MR BERGER: And you're absolutely certain that the very first shots you heard that morning were shots fired by the man with the AK47 into the crowd?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, that I heard, yes.

MR BERGER: The white person, the white man with the long hair who you never saw, testified that this crowd at the corner of King George and De Villiers were waving their weapons and then proceeded down King George Street towards Plein Street on full charge, in the manner of carrying out an attack.

MR STEPHENS: If that's the perception he got, I can't say that it's not.  That's his perception, and that's his version, but from where I was standing it did not look like a charge, it looked like the start of a march.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR DORFLING: Just one aspect with your leave, Mr Chair.  Mr Stephens can I hand you a map depicting the scene, and I would like you to with reference to this map, just indicate with the red pen with the letter "O" - I see there's another red mark, it might be misleading on another place on the map, but with the red letter "O" where your business concern was situated, from where your view was.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.  Okay, can I just see if I'm understanding that correct, you wanna know where the guy with the AK47 was standing, where he was shooting?

MR DORFLING: No, I want you to with the letter "O" point your business concern.

MR STEPHENS: Oh business concern.

MR DORFLING: Your business premises.  Before you hand back the map, can you at the same time with the letter "P" perhaps indicate where the gentleman with the automatic assault rifle was positioned.
Mr Stephens in conclusion may I ask you whether from your vantage point where you were positioned, can you from that point actually observe the main entrance to Shell House?

MR STEPHENS: From my shop to the main entrance, yes I can.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair.  If that could just be handed to the Committee.  That's unfortunately the only one I've got, may I beg leave to just get it back once it's been ...(indistinct)
	I've got no further questions to the witness, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stephens thank you very much, you're excused.

MR STEPHENS: Thank you sir.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair, I'm ready with the next witness, I've just been talking to my learned friend who has a watching brief on the South African Police Services.  It would appear that it's not advisable to start with the evidence in chief now and commence after lunch, I would rather have us adjourn now, we might perhaps just start a bit earlier if you so wish, and then proceed with the evidence in chief of the next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Your reason for not starting now?

MR DORFLING: It's virtually lunch, it's 12 minutes to lunch time, we would probably not even finish the evidence in chief of this witness, I'd rather have us adjourn perhaps 10 minutes and start 10 minutes earlier, to have the evidence in chief and the cross-examination in one session.

CHAIRPERSON: Well on the understanding that we do start 10 minutes earlier ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, may I indicate, unbeknown to me I have made an arrangement to meet someone at between 1 and 2, but of course I may have to cut it short in order to be here, but there's no reason I submit, why we can't use the 10 minutes now available.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now Mr Bizos, if we did there's gonna be very little difference in the totality of all this evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.