Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

MR LAX: Sorry, earlier in your evidence, under cross-examination was, you were asked were these people armed, you said some of them were armed, they were sticks, knopkierries, spears and firearms.  I heard you say in Zulu umbaso as well but that wasn't translated.

ADV SIGODI: Umbaso is an axe.

MR LAX: Yes I know that, I'm just saying I didn't hear that translated.  I did note that you said that.  But the translation was sticks, knopkierries, spears and firearms.  Whether that was a mistake or not I don't know.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, I didn't say that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) say that I also, my note also says, firearms.  But are you saying now that you didn't mention firearms this morning when you were giving testimony that the group of ANC people were armed with firearms.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, I did not.  I did not mention firearms.

MR LAX: Sorry, just while we're dealing with this question of firearms.  We heard evidence that from the IFP section of the community donations were being called for, for them to by firearms.  Did the ANC section of the community, or the ANC leadership arrange for members, or for themselves to be armed, to get firearms?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: But one would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, that in a community such as Zevenfontein, which was a fairly large community, many, many people probably owned firearms.  Well not even owned, possessed them, let me put it that way.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I don't know about that, but I did not see firearms, especially among the ANC.  To this day I have not seen an ANC member with a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  If I could just again refer the Committee to page 149 of the bundle.  I might just start on page 130 and this where the Judge regards the evidence of Mr Sandisile Dastile, the evidence before this Commission, and on the value thereof, and it's starts at line 15.  I think it said
"...of importance is the fact that he did not attempt to whitewash the ANC.  As regards the mood on the 12th of February 1994 he stated that after the incident at Moloesi's shebeen many of its members were angry.  They were armed, excited and ready to disobey orders not to attack the IFP.  He described this as a potentially dangerous situation in which a revenge attack by the ANC was possible."

MR LAX: Sorry, you're reading at page 130?

CHAIRPERSON: One four nine.

MR LAX: Sorry you said you were going to start at 130, that's why I was a bit puzzled.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 149, it's approximately, it's line 15, "of importance..."

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: To the end of that paragraph, line 23.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile is that indeed, was that the situation at that stage?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Would you please repeat as you were reading.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll read it for you.  This is, what I'm reading now is what the Judge at the trial of the applicants said in his judgment, and I read
"...of importance is the fact that he,"
That's you, he's referring to your evidence.
"...that he did not attempt to whitewash the ANC.  As regards their mood on the 12th of February 1994 he stated that after the incident at Moloesi's shebeen many of its members were angry.  They were armed, excited and ready to disobey orders not to attack the IFP.  He described this as a potentially dangerous situation in which a revenge attack by the ANC was possible."
That's what the Judge said in his judgment.  Now Mr Claassen is asking you do you agree with that assessment of your evidence?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes I agree with that.  It is similar to the testimony that I have just rendered.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, and maybe just in conclusion, Mr Dastile, we've heard now what you've testified about the meeting and going back to the ANC offices.  If might just, on page 108 of the judgment Mr Chair, and without wanting to take up too much time, starting from page, the top of page 108, it is described how this meeting has, according to the applicant's evidence, was held between Mr Dastile and Mr Zwane and Sithole to try and pacify the situation.  Of importance maybe is just that, and this is according to Mr Dastile's own version, he says, I think this is, I'm starting on line number eight
"...Mr Sandisile Dastile testified after this meeting his group turned towards the ANC offices and were proceeding towards it.  When they reached Brown's house, which is still close to the soccer field, and while the deceased Dastile was calling ANC members towards him, shooting broke out."
Mr Chair I believe in all fairness this should not be read in isolation, but it goes on to say:
"...The other witnesses who testified painted a rather different picture of the movements of the various people immediately before the violence began."
And then just 18, 19 and 20 it says:
"...It is clear from Mr Sandisile Dastile's version that he and the deceased Dastile did not, after leaving Mr Moloetsi's shebeen, return to the ANC offices."
And it goes on to say that Mr Moloetsi does not agree with this.  Mr Chair if I could just be given the opportunity to put this to the applicant, to the witness.
	Mr Dastile, I believe it was interpreted to you.  What have you got to say to what you yourself testified in the trial?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I believe that I mentioned even in Court that this was not put as I explained.  I was supposed to say we were shot.  I think if you were to rewind the cassette and listen to the evidence, it was clear on, should I say, rewinding the cassette and listening to the evidence to what exactly I meant to say.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think, I don't know what Mr Claassen's referring to, but he's also referring, included in that extract of the judgment is this section, where the Judge says
"...It is clear from Mr Sandisile Dastile's version, that he and the deceased Dastile did not, after leaving Mr Moloetsi's shebeen, return to the ANC offices."
Is that correct?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, we did go to the ANC offices after having left Sithole's place.  From Sithole's place we went to Magwaza and from, or should I say after speaking to Sithole, after having met him at the grounds, we went straight to the offices because Sithole said we should go and discuss this with the  ANC people whilst he is discussing this with the IFP people.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Claassen.  Mr Draht, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR DRAHT: Yes, Chairperson.  Mr Dastile, you referred earlier in cross-examination that you were at a certain stage with Binkie Moloi, Simon Skosana, Michael and another person.  The shebeen that is referred to as Skosana's shebeen, does that belong to this Mr Skosana?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

MR DRAHT: So am I correct if I say that Skosana's shebeen was owned by an ANC member, or an ANC leader?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, he was not a leader, he was a member, maybe a follower.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed Mr Draht.  Mr Dastile, the four deceaseds, the four people who were killed in this incident, were they all ANC members or supporters?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: All of them were members of the ANC, except for the one John Mohale whom we did not know, who died near Skosana's shebeen.  We did not know him.

CHAIRPERSON: And the seven injured people?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: All of them were members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: So they all, except for John Mohale the person who wasn't a resident of Zevenfontein, he was killed at or near Skosana's shebeen, or his body was found there, you don't know his political affiliation.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I did not know him.