Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-06

MR MCBRIDE: What I remember is that on an occasion - well firstly Matthew was overzealous and in one instance where a policeman, I think his surname was Fynn(?), the policeman and his son were bullies and took advantage of the fact the father was a policeman and would bully people and throw their weight around and Matthew got hold of the policeman's son, they were about the same age, and beat him very badly with a stick and that drew attention to himself.   Whilst you know, it can be argued that it's a legitimate target, it was drawing attention to himself and he was specifically told on recruitment, to keep a low profile and not draw attention to himself.

MS KOOVERJEE: Thank you.  Mr McBride, I refer you once again to bundle C, on page 17, I quote when you were questioned about reconnaissance on the Why Not operation, you stated
"On that particular mission the reconnaissance was achieved or obtained from various sources over long periods of time and information was received from Matthew also."
Can you please explain that.

MR MCBRIDE: Well I can't understand how it's portrayed like that.  It might have been that the initial question, if I remember correctly, was that they had asked what function does Matthew do and the question drifted into something else.  But Matthew - or I could have meant at that stage Gordon, but Matthew was never involved in intelligence gathering on the Why Not incident at all, at any stage.

MS KOOVERJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KOOVERJEE

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going first, Mr Mall?

HASSAN MALL: I understand that that is the arrangement with the Evidence Leader and Mr Richard.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mall if you have any questions please go ahead.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.
	Mr McBride, as you are aware I represent Mr van der Merwe, Mr Dunn and Mr Zimmerman, three of the gentlemen who were injured in the Chamberlain Road blast.  I understand that you have not met these gentlemen on a personal level, face to face, is that correct?

MR MCBRIDE: That is correct, Sir.

HASSAN MALL: Okay.  Now the first time that it emerged that you had anything to do with this Chamberlain Road blast was at this hearing, because I understand that at Gordon Webster's trial, Webster was found to be the person who was totally responsible for this blast.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

HASSAN MALL: And there wasn't any allegation against you and you weren't charged.

MR MCBRIDE: I was not charged and not suspected, there was nothing they had on me.

HASSAN MALL: There's been denials by ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: Was Webster convicted?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, he was convicted and sentenced to 25 years.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well how did they get evidence against him?

MR MCBRIDE: Well Gordon I imagine, did not want to implicate me because at that stage I was on death row.  So he gave evidence himself.  I think he had made a confession to that effect or something.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, just to clarify, he had the present Chief Justice then represent him and if I recall correctly, there was a confession in that matter.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	In Mr Webster's confession he said that it was never intended for this Chamberlain Road, for the two blasts to be a booby-trap set.  In his confession he made it seem as if both bombs had been timed to go off simultaneously, at the court case, whereas in your evidence yesterday you have said quite categorically that this was a booby-trap set-up.  In other words, to get the first bomb to go off and then to attract security personnel and then for the second one to go off.  Do you confirm that?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, that's correct, yes.

HASSAN MALL: Okay.  Can you briefly explain how you would go about setting these limpet mines in a situation like this.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, Sir, it's just very simple.  You have different lengths of timing set on it, in other words it's a thicker red plate.  That exhibit my attorney showed me would indicate the different colours and how long it is.  For example, the thicker the lead plate, the longer it takes for the high tensile steel wire to cut through it before detonation.  So you would have, the thicker one takes longer, a thinner one goes quicker.  And they are colour coded and the colours are then directly related to the time limits, time ranges.  Like yellow, I think it's between 5 and 15, if I can remember correctly, green is between 20 and 30 and I think red is between 30 and 40, something like that.  Minutes I'm talking about, yes.

HASSAN MALL: The timing on these things isn't very accurate then?

MR MCBRIDE: No, it's not.

HASSAN MALL: Now when the first bomb went off at Chamberlain Road, the first limpet mine, where were you?  Can you recall where you were?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, I can remember.  I was in my father's workshop about 200 metres away from it.  I had already dropped Gordon off, at I think his brother's place in Rosstown Road and I was back.  I was working on a Ford Bakkie which ...(indistinct) was to go and fetch.  The next day I had to leave.  If you look at my passport that I handed in, the next day I had to leave to go and fetch more arms in Botswana.

HASSAN MALL: And when the second limpet mine went off, where were you at that time, can you recall?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, I was at my home and what happened when the lights, the lights went out so I couldn't continue working, so I left immediately and went home.  Because I was in the workshop when the lights went out, so I couldn't continue working on the bakkie.  So I locked up and went home.  When I got home there was - so it's a time from the workshop to my home which is less than a kilometre away, that was the time delay, time difference.  Time to lock up and time to get home.  That's it.

CHAIRPERSON: You drove home in ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.  And it was about maybe five minutes after arriving at home and we stood in the, there's a park in front of our house where a lot of people were gathered after the first explosion, when the second one went off.  I actually saw the second one going off.

HASSAN MALL: You could see the second, you could see the transformers or the substation?

MR MCBRIDE: No, I couldn't, I saw the flash.  The flash and I heard the sound, the shock wave.

HASSAN MALL: Do you recall or do you know where Gordon Webster was at the time when the second limpet mine went off?

MR MCBRIDE: No, I don't know, but I dropped him off at his brother's house in Rosstown Road, which is about two kilometres from the Chamberlain Road substation.

HASSAN MALL: Did you ever discuss shortly after this Chamberlain Road incident, the matter with Gordon Webster?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, we were - we didn't discuss it very much, we were quite shocked about it because it's the first time people had been badly injured.  So even though it's a strange contradiction, our intention was to kill people, military personnel, I mean Security Force personnel.  We were not - we were quite shocked about it.  It was the first time we had done it.  At that stage Col Welman had not yet died, he was still badly burnt, but he was not expected to live.  But we discussed it ja, afterwards.