Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

JOHN SERAME GULU: After paying for the coffin at the mortuary, we got the death certificate and the receipts and then Isaac took his way. And then I went with Frans. On our way home, we met the deceased with his friends, his other friends.

ADV GCABASHE: Now they were standing outside the Post Office. Is this correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And how many were they, that group? How many people did you come across?

JOHN SERAME GULU: They were three where they were standing.

ADV GCABASHE: So it was the deceased, it was Amos, and who was the third person? Do you know the name?

JOHN SERAME GULU: The third one was John Mfana.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, continue.

JOHN SERAME GULU: (Reply not translated)

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying, sorry the translation didn't come through.

JOHN SERAME GULU: I do not know is Phinneas who approached Frans or Frans who approached Phinneas. And thereafter what I realised is that the deceased grabbed Frans with his clothes and then Frans did the same. And then his other friends came to me, the other one had a knife, that is Amos. I grabbed his hand which was holding the knife and I took the knife from him. After taking the knife from him, he ran away and then I took that knife and stabbed the deceased with that same knife.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I stop you just there. Just one second. What was John Mfani doing at that point? As you grabbed the knife? What was John doing? Where was he?

JOHN SERAME GULU: When I took the knife from him after twisting his hand, I was very fast. When I had it in my hand, both of them ran away, that is, the two of them.

ADV GCABASHE: Right, and at this point what was Phinneas doing and what was Frans doing? As you turned around with the knife in your hand?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is when I grabbed Phinneas from Frans and then I stabbed him that very same moment.

ADV GCABASHE: Just wait a minute. Now, from the time you came across Phinneas and the other two, up to the time that you stabbed Phinneas, did any discussion of any kind take place that you heard, or that you participated in?

JOHN SERAME GULU: We were just fighting and all silent.

ADV GCABASHE: Even right at the beginning when you first approached Phinneas. No words that, were spoken. You didn't hear anything?

JOHN SERAME GULU: II didn't hear anything.

ADV GCABASHE: You see, the reason I ask you this is I am still trying to understand the political motive that you say was present at the time you stabbed Phinneas. You have also said that you - let me rephrase that. You have asked us to understand that there was a political motive at that time. Yes?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: But the question that I, that then arises in my mind is, why then didn't you try and stab him before this incident, a day before, a week before, if you knew that he was the person who was obstructing the achievement of the ANC's objectives in your town? Do you understand what I'm, what my difficulty is?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do understand. Most of the time they were protected by the police. That is the reason why I was unable to get him. We only met on that very same day in May 1992. But before that I was unable to meet him. I want the Commission to understand that I was also employed. I was working at that time.

ADV GCABASHE: Alright. Then let's take it back a little further from this incident. You have just said that you were unable to meet him. When had you decided that you need to deal with this man?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I took a decision on that very same moment we met him. That same day.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying that before that moment, that same day, as you put it, you had not thought of dealing with this person who was causing such trouble to you as the ANC and to you as the community? Just help me through that.

JOHN SERAME GULU: I had the intentions but I was unable to get the chance to meet him.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, these intentions that you had, were they shared by anybody else in the ANC Youth League, or in the community?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That was the community intention.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, explain again so that we can understand. How was this intention expressed to you, in particular, by the community? I mean, you could have had a meeting where you discussed this, you could have discussed it just as individuals, I really don't know. Just help me understand.

JOHN SERAME GULU: As far as I am concerned, the community never called a meeting so that we could discuss about a place or the things that he did in the community. The community was aware about his doings in the community.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, I accept the community was aware. But maybe this will help you a little more. If you look at page 12 of your application, because I'm still not clear about this intention and when it was formed and expressed. 11(a) you have answered to and you have said, "this offence was approved by the community". Please explain that. Are you saying it was approved before or after it occurred? Just help us understand because that way I might understand your own intentions.

JOHN SERAME GULU: It is true that this was the community intention, it was not an individual intention. It was not my individual intention. It was not my intention as an individual.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, how do you come to the conclusion that it was a community intention when you have said that you did not hold a community meeting where this intention was discussed. Just help us understand that.

JOHN SERAME GULU: There were complaints within the community about this Eagle gang. The ANC would hold meetings and they would come and complain to the ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: They being the community?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, continue.

JOHN SERAME GULU: The community always complained to the ANC about this gang and they asked the ANC whether they would do something, because they were never arrested by the police.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, and so? What did the ANC decide to do?

JOHN SERAME GULU: The ANC decided that they would disarm this gang. And about that, the ANC disarmed them. And they were given to the Captain of the local Police Station. But when he is given those arms, that is the Captain, the very same weapons would be returned to the members of this gang. Because they were never arrested. They were never arrested. I cannot rightfully say what was the decision of the community about this issue. But as far as I am concerned, the community decided that this gang should be eliminated from the community. This gang was uncontrollable in the community. The community didn't have the power to eliminate this gang.

ADV GCABASHE: So, so how were the gang going to be eliminated? What did the community expect?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I do not want to lie about the community's intention to eliminate this gang, because I don't know.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, before the deceased was stabbed by you, had any other gang member been dealt with in any way? You know, as seriously as this? Well, let me put it this way. Had any other gang member been eliminated or killed?

JOHN SERAME GULU: No, there is no other member of the gang who was killed before this one.

ADV GCABASHE: And after this, that you know of, and I'm talking soon after this?

JOHN SERAME GULU: There is no other member of the gang who was killed after the deceased was killed.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, can I have your comment, somewhere in the documentation there is something about Phinneas had been looking for you the night before. I'll find it if you need me to make reference to that. I just know it's, it's  in  the documents. Phinneas had been looking for you the night before and when you approached him at the Post Office, you wanted to know from him why he had been looking for you the night before. Do you know anything at all about that?