Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: No I can tell you Mr Chairman the reason why our victims were doped and you can go to Sizwe Kondile, to Vusi and Peter in the end, was that I don't think there's any human being even in the Security Police that could look a human in the eyes who is sober and just put a gun to his head and shoot him at point blank, looking him in the eye.  Well I couldn't do it and none of my men could do that.

UNKNOWN: Well he was doped and why didn't you do it then, in the long run you did it in fact?

ANSWER: Well we were opting for the poison again, I can't explain that unfortunately.   If Koos Vermeulen comes forward Mr Chairman you'll see that is exactly the way it happens, the, whether there is method in the madness or madness in the method that's difficult to explain.

UNKNOWN: You were in charge of the operation, you gave
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	262	D J COETZEE
the orders.

ANSWER: I know, that's correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: You could tell them "shoot him" and Koos Vermeulen would have obeyed you and carried out your instructions.

ANSWER: It could have happened that way and that is the way it happened in the end Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: What was the psychological difference between giving a man poison and watching him die scratching himself, and shooting him, you were killing the man either way weren't you?

ANSWER: No Mr Chairman, the poison that I was talking about was supposed to give him a heart attack within minutes.   The drops that he got in was a question of, had the effect of excessive alcohol.

JUDGE WILSON: You expected it to kill him didn't you?

ANSWER: In the end yes.

JUDGE WILSON: In the beginning you told us in your, at page 111 at the bottom of the page
"After Vusi carried on like this all night, scratching and what have you we then decided Koos would report to Neethling to find out what was going on.   He returned that afternoon with the doses doubled.   He said Neethling could simply not understand this and said it was impossible."
Neethling expected him to die didn't he?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: So you were giving them poison that was expected to kill them.

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: What is the difference between doing that
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and shooting a man?

ANSWER: No difference it's just a different method used Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: ...say
"The reason why the victims were doped is I couldn't look someone in the eye and shoot him."
but you can look him in the eye and hand him a poisoned drink?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee you certainly agree with me finally that the killing of Peter Nglamini is another cover-up?

ANSWER: Not a cover-up, I would say a danger, eliminating a danger of a person exposing the illegal activities of the South African Security Police.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, you killed him so that he should not come out with the truth about the Vlakplaas and the Security?

ANSWER: That it might reach the world outside, that's correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you think that were the activities of Vlakplaas to be exposed, the Unit would have been inhibited in doing the work that it had been doing?

ANSWER: I don't understand the question, inhibited meaning sorry?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Make it difficult for the Unit to go on operating in the way that it had been doing?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman I think if the Unit was exposed it would have had exactly the same results as what happened in 89 when Almond Nofomela spoke and I went out.  It would have been a disaster.
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	264	D J COETZEE

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Another thing, I'm not sure I heard you correctly did you say that if a person were to die of that particular poisoning the autopsy would show as if he had died of excessive alcohol intake.   Is that what you said or did I mishear you?

ANSWER: No, no that is the, of a heart attack if he was handed that powder that was how it was explained by General Lothar Neethling to me.

UNKNOWN: As far as you know, was there ever anybody killed by the powder?

ANSWER: Not with my personal knowledge Mr Chairman, no not in my time.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee did it sometimes happen that some of the askaris defected from Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: It did Mr Chairman, in my time three.

<UNKNOWN>: Where would these people typically have gone to, where would they have defected to?

ANSWER: The two Monise brothers, Johannes and Chris Monise defected back to the ANC in Zambia where I met up with them in, whilst in exile.   Ben Lucky Zwane was killed after defecting from Vlakplaas and then a few years later coming back for an operation into South Africa he was killed in Soweto township somewhere.

<UNKNOWN>: What kind of information would such a person have been able to give the ANC, would it have been valuable information?

ANSWER: Absolutely about the whole Vlakplaas set-up, who was on the farm, how the teams operated, for how many days we were out per month, names, force numbers, photos.   I ended up seeing my own photo on an ANC file in Lusaka
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wearing shorts on Vlakplaas Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: The leaking of this type of information, is this one of the types of things that had to be prevented?

ANSWER: I beg your pardon?

<UNKNOWN>: Was this one of the things that had to be prevented, not only the public exposure of Vlakplaas but also information to its enemy?

ANSWER: At all costs Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION
DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE (suo)

CHAIRPERSON: Have you completed your re-examination?

MR JANSEN: Yes at this stage I did Mr Chairman, I have no questions at this stage in any event.   Thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe were there any questions you'd like to raise?
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: That is the end of this particular matter.   Is Mr Coetzee required for anything else?

MR JANSEN: No, Mr Chairman that deals with all the incidents in his application except for the matter of Mohema and as indicated by my learned friend at the beginning of the week, the Mohema family would be present tomorrow.   So I would imagine that this would then be a convenient time to take the adjournment.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman then as far as the imminent adjournment is concerned, as conveyed to you by myself in chambers earlier today, I just seek a small indulgence as far as tomorrow is concerned.   I explained to you that I
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MR DE WET-MARAIS	266	ADDRESS
have a commitment in Pretoria tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock that won't take me long, it should not take me further than 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.   If I can then just seek the indulgence for the adjournment to be until 11:30 tomorrow morning.   I don't think the Mohema matter could take more than an hour or an hour and a half so we should be finished before lunch.   If it would please you Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Would you be inconvenienced in any way if this matter is adjourned until a little later tomorrow morning?

MR DE WET-MARAIS: No Mr Chairman that will not inconvenience me at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any witnesses you are likely to call tomorrow?

MR DE WET-MARAIS: No Mr Chairman, the applicant Mr Nofomela has dealt with all the incidents in his application but I understand there may be, not evidence tomorrow but a statement read into the record of these proceedings by the attorney for Mr De Kock and for that purpose I would like to  have Mr Nofomela available tomorrow if we want to put questions about that.

CHAIRPERSON: That would not concern Mr Jansen and I'm wondering whether we can do that in his absence?

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Yes as far as I'm concerned it should not present a problem.