Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, would you repeat please?

MR STEENKAMP: Looking at your amnesty application, page 19 which is the first page of your amnesty application, I see there paragraph 9(a) you say this incident apparently occurred on the 22nd of October 1993, is this a mistake?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, that is not so.

MR STEENKAMP: So according to you this incident occurred on the 22nd of October 1993, do I understand you correctly?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It did not happen on that day.

MR STEENKAMP: So that is my question.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Sorry?

MR STEENKAMP: Is this a mistake?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is so.

MR STEENKAMP: Is this the only mistake in your amnesty application or is there anything else you want to point out which is wrong, or is the rest of your application correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if I can just be of help not necessarily on the question, if the applicant can be told that the bundle is before him, take the bundle in front of him and open it, the bundle, not the affidavit. 	Take the bundle, turn to page 19.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 19 of the bundle is part of the old application of Khotle, isn't it?  Oh, you're looking at the other bundle?

MR STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman for the inconvenience.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] not the Wesselsbron Attack but the attack that is marked: "Wesselsbron/Thabu'Nchu Police"?

MR STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Do you have your application in front of you now?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just answer my question if possible?  Is there anything else you would like to amend or point the Committee's attention to that is wrong in your application or do you still stick to your application as it is?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't know.  The way I filled this application form I'm satisfied.

MR STEENKAMP: Well if we can go to page 20 ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: May I just ask, the handwriting there, is that yours?  Did you write this?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, it's not myself.

MR MALAN: Who wrote it?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't know.

MR MALAN: Were you present when this form was filled out?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, I was present.

MR MALAN: But you don't know the person who wrote it?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I know him because he was present when the form was filled.

MR MALAN: Where was this done?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: In Bloemfontein.

MR MALAN: Where in Bloemfontein?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Grootvlei Maximum Prison.

MR MALAN: Who was the Commissioner before whom you signed this?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: There was no Commissioner who made us taken an oath.

MR MALAN: Do you someone, Sizane?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It might be the one who filled this form but I don't remember his name well.  I don't know the name of the person who filled this form.

MR MALAN: Do you know a member of parliament?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, I don't.

MR MALAN: Was a member of Parliament present when you signed this form?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It might be those lawyers who helped us to fill those forms, maybe that person from parliament was present.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears to be signed by somebody who alleges he's a member of parliament but the copies that I have seen are not dated.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I continue Mr Chairperson?

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, can we just have a look at paragraph 10 on page 20, which is the second page of your application.  Can you just turn to that page please, marked page 20?  Do you have that in front of you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, I have it.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm just going to read from your own application and I just want your comment.  Do you have it in front of you now?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Under the heading: "State Political Objective Sought to be Achieved", you said
"To carry forwards the armed struggle waged by the PAC/APLA at the time at or as, as the Wesselsbron Supermarket was owned by the local chairman of the AWB and frequented by AWB members?
Do you still stick to this version?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, what I know about this is that we were carrying forward the armed struggle for liberation.  As to whether the owner of the shop was the AWB, I do not know.

MR STEENKAMP: Why did you put it in your amnesty application Sir?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: When I filling this application I didn't include this aspect to say, I only talked about my objective, I did not include that the owner of the shop was a member of the AWB.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you please tell us what your political objective was?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It was to achieve total liberation for the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that when you filled this form in this paragraph wasn't filled in?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I did fill it in?

CHAIRPERSON: Well what did you say?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I told them about my objective, that is was to achieve total liberation for the people.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is not what is in the form here.  You say that is what was filled in in the form that you signed, that you prepared, as I understand you.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't know who put that addition, under which circumstances or reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what else has been put into this form that you don't know about?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: The way it was filled I'm satisfied.  There is nowhere where I have doubts.

CHAIRPERSON: But the problem is you have told us it was filled in a certain way, the form we have is filled in and they are completely different in context.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: To explain shortly before this Commission, at the time when we were filling these application forms those people who represented us at that time, we were telling them orally and those people were writing or filling those forms.  I did not fill this form by myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell those people who were filling in the form
"We entered the Wesselsbron Supermarket and started shooting indiscriminately at the white people who were inside the shop"?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Because that has been written in the form and then scratched out.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, I see that.

MR MALAN: Do you have your bundle open on page 20?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't think it has the same number, the one application he is using as yours Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Sorry, the copy of the statement that you have before you, I assume it's on the second page at the top, there is a IV and it says: "Nature and Particulars", do you have that before you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct, I see it.

MR MALAN: And you can read what is written there?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Do you mean the way it was scratched?

MR MALAN: You can see that it's scratched out with a diagonal line there.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, I see that.

MR MALAN: And then there's some initial on the left of that scratched our paragraph.  Is that your mark?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It's not myself.

MR MALAN: It's not your mark.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, it's not my mark.

MR MALAN: If you turn over the page you see your name at the bottom: Deponent: George Mazete.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, I see that.

MR MALAN: Is that your mark?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, it's not myself.

MR MALAN: That's not how you write your name?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is the way I write it.

MR MALAN: Did you write this?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, it's not myself.

MR MALAN: Who wrote this?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It's the TRC lawyers.

CHAIRPERSON: You say TRC lawyers?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Those who represented the Truth Commission, who consulted people who wanted to apply for amnesty in this province.

ADV SIGODI: When you were interviewed or when you were being assisted in filling in this form, were you alone?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, I was not alone.