Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

CHAIRPERSON: No I think, Mr Gwamanda, there is a difference between a case number, a case number is a number issued by the Court.  The police when they open a docket they have a, I don't know what they call it these days, a CR number or a CAS number and that will be different from the case number.  I think the number that Mr Falconer has given you, 252/10/93 is the police docket number as opposed to the case number.

MR FALCONER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I would not know what the CR number was, I was just referring to the case number.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you deny that the CR number was 252/10/93 or have you just got no comment on that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: The CR number that I see is 252/10/93.

CHAIRPERSON: Then that's the number, thank you.

MR FALCONER: What is that page you're reading from there, Mr Gwamanda, is that a charge-sheet?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, it is a charge-sheet where it is alleged that I robbed R90-thousand.  They have written or they've made a report.  That is the entire file with regards to that crime.  I have written to the Minister of Justice about it and I've written to the Legal Aid Board as well and I have been granted legal aid for an appeal.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, it's going to save a lot of time if you'll confine yourself to my questions.  Would it be correct to infer then that because the CR number is an October 1993 number, that the offence for which you are currently incarcerated took place in October 1993?  You should be able to see it in the charge  sheet.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can answer that, Mr Gwamanda.  We understand your attitude towards that case.  Have you got the charge sheet there, when is it alleged that that offence was committed, the one that you say you were wrongly convicted for?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: It is alleged that it happened as reflected in the CR number.

CHAIRPERSON: In October 1993?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: And you were only arrested for that offence on the 6th of December 1993?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he said, Mr Falconer.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, those persons whom I represent in these proceedings deny that they were involved in any way whatsoever in the unlawful and criminal activities which you have described and which you have implicated them in.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: They are lying, they are involved and they are well aware of these incidents.

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FALCONER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Falconer.  Mr Nel, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gwamanda, you did say earlier that you actively took part in the struggle, am I correct?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: You mean before I was arrested for these incidents?

MR NEL: Let's investigate that.  When and at what age did you start taking part in politics and in the struggle?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Please repeat your question.

MR NEL: What ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: I think the interpreters have technical problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, I think if you can just repeat the question and let's see if Mr Gwamanda gets the interpretation.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	My question was, Mr Gwamanda, at what age did you start your political career and did you start taking part in the struggle as such?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Inasfar as the struggle is concerned, I started in 1976 when I joined the "Black Power", resisting against Africans or Afrikaans and I gathered that from Orlando East, 659 Orlando East, where I was taught the struggle.

MR NEL: Now you say that you were expelled from school during 1976, is that correct?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR NEL: And after you left school or after you had been expelled, what did you then do with regards to the struggle?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: There was nothing else I could do inasfar as the struggle was concerned because the whole thing was banned and I was still young.  I was also told that Afrikaans(?) was not wanted but we could not do much or further because the political organisation was banned then.  I was 14 years of age.

MR NEL: You didn't contemplate leaving the country in 1976 like many other people did?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That crossed my mind in 1980, to the extent that I even left and returned from Pongolo(?).  I did not know then what to do when I get to Swaziland.  I had all these questions coming in my mind that I'd even decided to return, to come back and not to cross because the person I could connect with had already lost connection with the person.

MR NEL: By that time, 1980, you had already been convicted of two criminal offences, would you agree with me?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: 1998?  What year?

CHAIRPERSON: 1980.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I agree with you because in 1977 I had a spray gun that I wanted to use in disturbing the teacher and I was arrested and I was given lashes, five lashes.  I also had a case with a goat, related to a goat and I was also given lashes.  We were just being naughty as boys.  I was given a warning and I was questioned but discharged.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, at the age of 15 you'd already been branded a criminal, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he had a record, we know that.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now Mr Gwamanda, maybe you would like to have a look at your calendar, if I may go onto the next issue.  According to your statement you say that during 1990,
this is paragraph 3 on the top of the page:
"During 1990, whilst serving sentence in Barberton Town Prison."
Can you tell us, with reference to your calendar, when exactly you went to Barberton Town Prison?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: With regards to my calendar, my calendar is a 1993, I have with me a 1993 calendar.

MR NEL: You'd obviously not find it in the 1993 calendar.  You did say in your evidence exactly like you stated in your statement, that is was during 1993 whilst you were serving at Barberton Town Prison.  My question, Mr Gwamanda is, can you recall perhaps when you went to  Barberton ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, he said - this is according to my note, he said that he was arrested etc., he went to Empangeni then Point and he said
"A year later in 1985 I was taken to Barberton Prison Maximum.  I was taken from Maximum to Medium B, then to Open Camp and then in 1990, to Town Prison."

MR NEL: That's correct, Mr Chairman, I have the notes like that as well.  I just wanted to know if he could possibly recall when in 1990 he went to Barberton Town Prison.

MR LAX: Sorry, the mistake was that you said '93, that's why we were confused.

MR NEL: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, 1990.
	You did say in your evidence that you went to Barberton Town Prison during 1990 and also that is reflected in your statement, can you recall when perhaps, early 1990, late 1990?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I may not be in a position to recollect all of that information because I had no diary.  I will say it was in the middle of 1990 because 1990 had already started.  Not unless I verify this information with Barberton Town Prison, to give you accurate response as far as dates are concerned, so I may not remember.  In fact I don't remember to be quite honest.

MR NEL: But are you still adamant that it was in 1990 that you went to Barberton Town Prison and it's during this time that you met a person called Elijah Mhlaba?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: This Elijah Mhlaba I met in Town Prison from '90 or 1991.  I may not remember.  In fact I don't remember the year.  I do remember though that it was the '90's and Elijah was definitely there at Town Prison.