Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

GEORGE BIZOS: We were also brought up, Mr Chairman, in the tradition in which we absent ourselves from a hearing, we usually ask to be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Let's have this short adjournment Mr Martini has asked for, and see if we can sort something out and at this stage, a short one, we won't take the lunch adjournment.
	If necessary, if nothing can be sorted out, we can then perhaps take the lunch adjournment and carry on with what we are doing now.  We will take at this stage, a ten minute adjournment.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, before we adjourn and before Mr Martini re-examines, I just need to put to this witness, something concerning Andrew Boraine, you will recall at the end of his cross-examination I asked him ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you said that you had to look up something.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could perhaps do that at this stage, Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Thank you.  Mr van Zyl, you will recall I asked you whether you were aware of the CCB being involved in any work concerning Andrew Boraine and your answer was no, do you remember?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: You asked whether there was any project on Andrew Boraine.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: And I said no.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you wish to qualify that answer?  What work was being done in relation to Andrew Boraine?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Andrew Boraine, I stand under correction, but his particulars I received to verify information with regard to his residential address and so forth, and he was then, the address was old, something about those lines, it was just an information question, it was not a project on him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why would the CCB want to know the details of where he lived, if it wasn't a project?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: In my opinion, it was just an enquiry.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What do you think was going to be done with that information?  I am just trying to understand why you say there was no project?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, because I qualified that a project is when a pre-study had been done, an in-house had been done and consequently approval had been obtained.  That is a project, and in the light thereof, that I qualified and said that it was an enquiry which came, where I was involved with, but I cannot even recall what the result thereof was.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were you doing any work in relation to Trevor Manual?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Also some enquiry.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right, just for the sake of the record, I am going to just tell you what the late Mr Gordon has to say about what you told him to do in relation to Andrew Boraine.  He says after he had come back from being called up to Johannesburg ...

CHAIRPERSON: Give us a reference please.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It is page B201, in relation to the Evans project, paragraph 37.  You have already said that you were known to him by the code name of Theunis, approximately ten lines into paragraph 37
"... Theunis then said that we should not continue to stab Evans because he would once again have to plan.  We shall later have to fly back to Johannesburg.  Theunis then removed a file from his case, and showed a photo of a white man to me in the file, and asked whether I knew the white man.  It was a photostat photo, I did not recognise the man.  Theunis then told me that the person was Andrew Boraine.  He said that the person had once upon a time left the country for military training and that he was involved with the ANC.  The person would be somewhere in Woodstock in the Cape.  In the file there was a typed version of Boraine's history, education history and his activities with the ANC.  I read it quickly and I was given instruction that I had to go and work on Boraine when I returned to the Cape.  I had to obtain everything possible with regard to Boraine and he also furthermore told me that I should draw up written reports of persons whom I was working on."
	Your comment?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: As I said I am aware that Min Trevor Manual and Mr Andrew Boraine were enquiries which I dealt with.  I concede that Peaches was used in this regard.  I can however not recall that I was in possession of copies of university qualifications and histories and so forth, but I do admit.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you had a photograph of him?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot recall that, it is possible.  That is possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And as you sit here now, you don't maybe think to yourself that the reason why you were being asked to gather this information, because these were the preparatory stages of a plan to kill this person?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is possible, but there was absolutely no instruction to do a pre-study on him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I must also put it to you that Wouter Basson handed you a list of certain people who were to be worked on, to use a euphemistic phrase, in the Western Cape and that on that list, was included the names of Andrew Boraine and Trevor Manual, is that true?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KAHANOVITZ

CHAIRPERSON: I see it is now 1 o'clock, so we may as well take the lunch adjournment, instead of a ten minute adjournment and then coming back.  We will take the lunch adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini?

MR MARTINI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, sorry, just before Mr Martini proceeds, there are certain aspects which I will have to put to Mr van Zyl, arising out of my instructions from my clients, unless it is not necessary in view of the type of proceedings to put it to him where there evidence will differ from his?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it will be convenient to do it at this stage, perhaps before the re-examination.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.   Mr van Zyl, one or two aspects in view of the evidence regarding certain meetings.  You have already given evidence that the whole cell structure was aimed at a need to know basis, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Flowing from this, your evidence was that after the Athlone bomb on the 1st of September 1989, you  and Maree met the Regional Manager, you and Botha met the Regional Manager at Jan Smuts airport.  You mentioned Maree here, are you saying that he was present during any discussions of this incident?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, he was present because upon our arrival at the airport, no aspect of the project of the Early Learning Centre was discussed  with him, by me, he was only there to deliver a vehicle for us.  We then drove back with his vehicle, myself, Calla and he went to their residences with Staal Burger.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you are not saying that he was necessarily aware of the actions and the details thereof?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And then the same also applies to the money project, on page 627 of the record where you say that
"... the Regional Manager, the Co-ordinator, Botha and Maree were present in a hotel at Sandton where instructions were given."
	Can I accept that this is the same, that you are not alleging that he was aware of the details of the action?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And then regarding the Omar project, we already know that at a stage you mentioned a certain Nick, my instructions are that this particular person, Nick, at a stage due to Basson's involvement with various other Regions as Co-ordinator, that Nick actually took over this function in Region 6, can you confirm this?  That Nick did the co-ordinating functions?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is the case, yes, I cannot deny that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you give any indication when it occurred, when this person, Nick, assumed the responsibilities of the co-ordinating function from Basson?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It would have been in September, if I think back of the last incident, in September when I did the accounting.

CHAIRPERSON: September 1989?