Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia do you have any questions to ask the witness?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole, the march to the Randburg council offices to demand more land for the people staying in Zevenfontein, was approximately one year, in about March of 1993, before the incident.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Even 'though I do not know quite well, I think it must have been 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: What's being put to you Mr Sithole, is this incident, the shooting took place on the 12th of February 1994, that's six weeks after the start of 1994.  What Mr Cachalia is suggesting to you, or putting to you, is that that march that took place to Randburg by the community in order to procure more land, took place during or about March 1993, about eleven months before the shooting.  Would you dispute that?

MR SITHOLE: No, I would not dispute that.  I'm not educated.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole, the fact that you're educated or not cannot matter.  The question is, it took place a long time before the incident on the 12th of February 1994.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: No, it was not a very long time.

AZHAR CACHALIA: We'll leave it at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia is it a fact that that march took place in March?  They marched in March?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Apologies, my instructions, yes.  May I proceed, sir?  Thank you.  That march was in fact led by the now premier of the Gauteng province, premier Matole Matsega.  Do you remember that?

MR SITHOLE: I do not know, because I did not go there personally.  I remained behind because I had to go to work.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I want to suggest to you without wasting too much of the Committee's time, that this incident had in fact nothing to do, the incident of the 12th of February had nothing to do with that march, or the committee, or its membership, or any of that.

MR SITHOLE: I am saying it was connected.  We met and we discussed that we should go to Randburg and ask for more land.  We, that's the whole community.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Did you have a member by the name of Pinky Maloi and Mr Dan Sindani on that particular committee that decided on the march?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, they were present because they are the ones with whom we were planning the Randburg march.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And do you know that at that time when the march was planned that these were members of the existing ANC committee that existed at that time?

MR SITHOLE: I didn't know that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Alright.  Mr Sithole, you were an induna of the IFP according to your evidence.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Do you, as a result of that particular position that you hold, take any instructions from any member of the IFP in the area, or do you, are you the person who makes the decisions in the matter?

MR SITHOLE: I am the one who was making, taking decisions.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And the decision in your capacity as induna, if you took a decision in you capacity as an induna, the members of the IFP are required to follow your decisions and your instructions in the matter.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now when Mr Magwaza, according to you, gave you an AK-47 and said there was no time to talk, and when you disagreed with him, why then did you take the AK-47 and move  out of the house that, where he gave you the AK-47?

MR SITHOLE: I had realised that I was dying now, the people were here, and I realised that if I take this AK-47 I can be in a position to protect myself.

AZHAR CACHALIA: How would Mr Magwaza who gave you the firearm protect himself, if you needed it to protect yourself?

MR SITHOLE: He had two firearms in his possession.  He also had another firearm, a smaller one.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Am I to understand Mr Sithole, that after you had this, after you had indicated and instructed that the matter be discussed, that you changed your mind because you suddenly realised that you were dying?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I changed my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Cachalia.  What position did Mr Magwaza hold, if any, in the IFP in Zevenfontein?

MR SITHOLE: He was chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what position did you hold in the IFP at Zevenfontein.

MR SITHOLE: I was an induna.

CHAIRPERSON: So whose more senior, you or Magwaza?

MR SITHOLE: Magwaza.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Obviously Mr Sithole you had just forgotten that you have told us that if you made an instruction it was binding on all members of the IFP.

MR SITHOLE: No, I haven't forgotten that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then please repeat for us what the position is.  If you made a decision, you have told us that it is binding on members of the IFP in Zevenfontein where you were induna.  Do you wish to change that now, sir?

MR SITHOLE: I am not changing anything.  I indicated that I reported to Magwaza, that I wanted to discuss something that I received from the ANC, and he said he was rushing to town.  I did this because of his seniority in relation to myself.

AZHAR CACHALIA: We will leave that there for the committee to make a decision upon, Mr Sithole.  You, according to the evidence that you have given, made an application for, your first application was made in this matter on the 2nd of May 1997.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And at the time when you made that particular application Mr Sithole, you say that there was a person whom you did not trust.  Was this a lady or a man?  Male or female?

MR SITHOLE: A female.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Is this the lady by the name of Colleen Henchie?

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Are you saying that she came to you and said you must make this application but you cannot say the truth because that would be in conflict with what was said by you in Court?

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair, if I may, I think that might be a bit  misleading now.  Maybe if the question could just be asked to indicate whether he was told anything by her, rather than saying she told him to, or prescribed to him what he should write down.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I know that you can lead under cross-examination, but usually if you're leading, do you know what occurred, why she, what she may have said to him?

AZHAR CACHALIA: I have not consulted with Ms Henchie, but I am saying that the credibility of this witness needs to be tested, whether he has made full disclosure, and I'm saying that that is portion of the matter that I'm dealing with, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps if you, why did you mistrust the attorney Ms, is it Ms Henchie?  Why did you mistrust her?  Wasn't she your lawyers?

MR SITHOLE: I had not heard yet that she was going to be my legal representative, and at the time I had sent through an appeal.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, may I proceed sir.  Mr Sithole, you had already at that stage completed your matter in the Courts.  You were sentenced already in 1996.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: In 1997 on the 2nd of May 1997, whilst you were at the Johannesburg Medium Prison you made this particular application for amnesty.

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: In that application, according to you, you told some lies and some truths.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You did that because you did not trust the person that made the application for you.  Is that right?

CHAIRPERSON: No he said that was partially right, because he said also because his appeal was pending.

AZHAR CACHALIA: One of the reason why you did not tell the truth at that stage is because your appeal was pending and you did not trust the person.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What was the reason for you not trusting this particular person that was there?

MR SITHOLE: I did not know whether that person was my attorney or legal representative, or not.