Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] mention any assaults.

MR BOOYENS: I'm referring to - Mr Chairman, I'm using the technical word, assaults with the electric shocks and so on.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, rather use torture, he's used torture to describe that.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.
	This torture session that you described, how long was it after you went to Jeffrey's Bay?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After he'd refused to give us the desired answers, the group that was going to interrogate him then arrived, the names that I'd already mentioned.

MR BOOYENS: The question is, approximately how long after you'd started interrogating him or questioning him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It's quite soon after we realised that we were not getting the answers that we wanted.

MR BOOYENS: Please Mr Danster, it's a simple question.  You started on a certain day in Jeffrey's Bay to question the man and at a later stage he was tortured, I know - how long was it from the time that you started to question the man in Jeffrey's Bay till this torture took place, that's all I want to know, try and help us.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I don't quite know what answer you want.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you say whether it was within a week of your having started questioning, two weeks? - approximately, if you can't be exact.

GINOTRY DANSTER: After a day.

MR BOOYENS: So the very first day it became apparent that he was not co-operating and so the next day the torturers arrived, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now have you ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Danster, are you sure about your answer now, that it was a day and the next day the torturers arrived?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I can't say it was just one day after we started questioning him.  If you're not getting the answers that you want you're going to make means to get the kind of information that you want.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but you just told us it was one day after.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: We have no idea, we're not saying that we know when, we want some assistance form you to give us some idea about how long after you had questioned him and got nowhere, did the tortures commence.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Plus minus one day.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Booyens.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Kondile hasn't informed you at that stage that he had been tortured by anybody prior to that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

MR BOOYENS: When did you receive the instruction from Mr du Plessis that you were not to beat the man or as you say: "assault him"?

GINOTRY DANSTER: When we were torturing him, interrogating him, he then gave us an order that we should not kick him, we should not beat him up, we should not bang him against the wall.

MR BOOYENS: This statement you made to the investigator of the TRC, you say you were relying solely on memory, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Is this statement correct and true?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: So, would I be correct in saying that you read through it and you were satisfied and that's when you signed it and you took the oath that it was the truth, is that right Mr Danster?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And if there was anything that was incorrect in it or untrue, you would have had it rectified before you signed it - I mean you were at one stage in your career a policemen, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Can you perhaps just for the sake of the record, identify your statement, is that the document appearing from page 42 to page 50 - it's actually signed on page 49 - it be binding on my conscience, I think there's another signature of yours there, I'm not ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Is that the one?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Now, I want to try and get some details of this torture session.  The first torture session involved a certain number of people that you mentioned in your evidence in chief, Niewoudt and all those people, do you remember? - du Plessis, Roelofse, Niewoudt, Bezani, Raath and yourself.  Were all of them involved in that first torture session?  Leave the statement alone, I'm talking about your evidence in chief.  Mr Danster, leave the statement alone.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Pardon?

MR BOOYENS: Leave the statement alone, I'm asking you about your evidence in chief.  The first torture session involved the six people that I have mentioned, du Plessis, Roelofse, Niewoudt, Bezani, Raath and yourself, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And after that torture session, did Mr Kondile co-operate?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He gave us information but not all the information that the Captain wanted from him.

MR BOOYENS: So there must have been a period of time in-between that and the second torture session, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: When somebody is being interrogated there are breaks, four to five hour breaks and when we get up we would continue with our work.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.  Now I want you to describe this first alleged torture session that you say you were involved in, where did it take place?

GINOTRY DANSTER: In the office in Jeffrey's Bay.

MR BOOYENS: There was a bed in the office, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, there was a bed in the corner.

MR BOOYENS: Was there more than one bed in the corner? - not in the corner, in the room - my mistake.

GINOTRY DANSTER: There was one bed in the room.

MR BOOYENS: Who used to sleep on that bed?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Raath would sleep on the bed and we would use sleeping bags on the floor.

MR BOOYENS: So you were already staying - the: "we" who would use the sleeping bags on the floor, would that now be you and Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: There were mattresses on the floor and we'd use sleeping bags.

MR BOOYENS: Just listen to my question.  The: "we" that would use the sleeping bags in that room, was that you and Mr Kondile?, that's what I want to know.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Sizwe did not sleep in that room.

MR BOOYENS: At no stage?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, he would not sleep in that room at all.

MR BOOYENS: Was he taken back to the cells all the time?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: For the whole of the 12 weeks?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: So if we - you see because according to the occurrence book he was in fact booked out of those cells and allegedly released on the 10th of August 1981.  I say he was ...[indistinct] released because we know by now he was not really released but he was booked out of those cells.  So if we go - if he was there for 12 weeks and we know that he's only been taken to Jeffrey's Bay on the 24th of July, it seems that the prisoner tally in the cells from the 10th of August for the next 9 to 10 weeks will never tally, there will always be one prisoner more in the cells than there are supposed to be, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Please repeat your question, it's not clear.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, I would like you to comment about this because I think this is something we will have to investigate.  You tell me that you were involved in the interrogation of Mr Kondile for about 12 weeks, that's about three months, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now if he was taken into custody at Jeffrey's Bay on the 24th of July, that should be August, September, October till round about late October, 24th of October, 20th of October, round about that time, he was still kept in the cells at Jeffrey's Bay, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He was kept in Jeffrey's Bay just before he went to Komatiepoort.

MR BOOYENS: For how many weeks?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was there for plus minus 12 weeks.

MR BOOYENS: And that was the time that he was kept in Jeffrey's Bay in the cells.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.