Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MS NGONO: This came up because there are a lot of questions now that I've been asked.  I don't remember telling my legal representative.

MR VISSER: What was - did you hear about this threat to use Bulelo against your mother, at the time?  Did you know about that at the time, when this threat was issued to your mother, when your mother was in detention, or was it something that you heard about later?  I just want to know when you heard about it.

MS NGONO: When we went to visit my mother, she told me about this.

MR VISSER: You see that's the thing, when did you go to visit your mother?

MS NGONO: I went home in December and I visited her in December 88, but that was said to her before.

MR VISSER: Did you go home for the school holidays?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did you also go home for the school holidays in 1987 in December?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Well, Ms Ngono, with great respect to you then, I don't understand your evidence at all.  I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: It would be fair, Mr Visser, to say what you don't understand.  Probably it could be cleared up.  You cannot just say:  "I don't understand" and stop there, it wouldn't be fair to the witness.

MR VISSER: Perhaps I should be fair to her then.  If you had gone home in December 1987, which you just said you did, home means to Port Elizabeth, is that correct?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: What does your evidence mean about you going to the places where your brother lived in Lesotho and visiting Mpilo and helping with the washing and all that evidence that you gave, while all the time you're sitting in Port Elizabeth?

CHAIRPERSON: Well I suppose first thing we should establish when the holidays were.  It wouldn't be fair, again.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  When did the school holidays in Lesotho commence, the December holidays, when did they start?

MS NGONO: I went home in December and I went back to Lesotho in December.

MR VISSER: When did the school holidays commence in Lesotho?

MS NGONO: I cannot remember the date.

MR VISSER: Was it from the beginning of December that the schools closed?

MS NGONO: No, it was not the beginning of December.

MR VISSER: Well from when in December?  The middle of December, when?

MS NGONO: I cannot remember.

MR VISSER: Why not?  You were at school there.  Were you attending school over Christmas, for example?

MS NGONO: You said that if I do not remember something, I should say so.

MR VISSER: Fair enough, I stand corrected.  Well, can we assume that the schools would have closed before Christmas?

MS NGONO: Yes, they were closed before Christmas.

MR VISSER: And you then went home?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: To Port Elizabeth?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And the school started when in the new year, somewhere in January?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Is that when you came back, went back to Lesotho in 1988?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: So at least from before Christmas until January, you are not able to tell us whether Bulelo was in Lesotho, or whether he wasn't there, isn't that correct, not from your own knowledge?

MS NGONO: I can tell you because I went back to Lesotho in December, I was sent to go to Lesotho and Bulelo was not there.

MR VISSER: Who sent you?

MS NGONO: My mother.

MR VISSER: To do what?

MS NGONO: My mother was working with the cadres that were in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: To do what?  Why did your mother send you to Lesotho?

MS NGONO: She gave me a letter, but I don't know what was written in that letter.  Maybe she was asking for money.

MR VISSER: A letter addressed to whom?

MS NGONO: I have it to two girls that were in Roma.

MR VISSER: And that's why your mother sent you to ...

MS NGONO: So I spent December holidays in Lesotho, Christmas day I was there in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: So actually it wasn't correct to say that you spent the Christmas, or your spent - you were in Port Elizabeth in December, you were actually in Lesotho in December.

CHAIRPERSON: She said she came home in December and went back to Lesotho again in December, that's what she said.   Now it is now quite clear when she went back.

MR VISSER: So you were there at Christmas, on Christmas day you were in Lesotho?

MS NGONO: Yes, I was in Lesotho on Christmas day and to follow up from what the Chairperson just stated, you can't tell us when you left Lesotho to go to Port Elizabeth, that date you can't remember, is that what you're saying?

MS NGONO: Yes, I cannot remember.

MR VISSER: it could have been a week, it could have been two weeks, you don't remember?

MS NGONO: Perhaps it's three weeks, but I cannot remember when the school holidays started.

MR VISSER: Would you bear with me a short moment Chairperson?  I know it's gone way past one o'clock already.  I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Nothing Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Ngono, that concludes your evidence.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn.  We'll take three-quarters of an hour for lunch, back at a quarter-past two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Malindi, you were still playing the back-hand.

MR MALINDI: ;   Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, I beg leave to call Phyllis Seyoe.

CHAIRPERSON: I did not have my ear phones.

MR MALINDI: I beg to call the next witness, Phyllis Seyoe.

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Mrs Seyoe are you related in any way to Betty Boom?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct, that's my sister.

MR MALINDI: And you are familiar with these hearings.  Could you please tell the Committee when she left for exile?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: In 1979.

MR MALINDI: From 1979 when she left, was the family able to keep contact with her or not?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: No, Chairperson, we were not able to be in contact with her.  We were supposed to meet in 1986 in December.

MR MALINDI: Could you please repeat your answer, I couldn't get it.

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: We contacted her for the first time in 1986, since she left in 1979 in December.

MR MALINDI: How did you contact her in December in 1986?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: We contacted her telephonically.

MR MALINDI: ;   Who spoke to her on the phone?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I contacted her myself.

MR MALINDI: Did you phone her yourself, or what was the position?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: She's the one who used to contact us through telephone.

MR MALINDI: And did you know where she was contacting you from when she phoned?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: She told me that she's around Free State, but she did not mention a particular place.

MR MALINDI: Besides this telephonic contact that you had in December 1986, was there any other form of contact within the family and Betty Boom?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, she used to contact me then she would tell me a place where we'd meet and then I will go there and meet her and have a discussion.

MR MALINDI: ;   Can you give the Committee the period during which you had these subsequent meetings with her?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: We met on ten occasions where we met, or she would contact me through the phone.

MR MALINDI: Which year was this?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Up to 1987.

MR MALINDI: Do you remember more or less the date on which you last met her place to place?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I don't remember the particular date, but it was somewhere towards the end of November or towards the beginning of December 1987.

MR MALINDI: And was that the last contact you had with her?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct, Chairperson.