Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

MR POTSANE: Occasionally we would meet, maybe fortnightly to come and update one another as to how things are and what will be our next move and that is the general ...[indistinct] because we had a mission to do in the country so we would always meat and talk about what is supposed to happen.  And maybe sometimes we might need the assistance.
	We have to reconnaissance something in Mamelodi, things that need to be done and we need their help and they will come this side to Mamelodi to come and help us and they will also make certain things on that side, moves which they might require us to come and help with and we will do so.

MR LENGANE: Okay.  Mr Potsane, let's come to this incident.  We have heard now from Mr Molope that the incident in fact took place in June, on the 21st of June 1986, what was your specific personal role in that matter on that day?

MR POTSANE: Well on the said day of the 21st of June 1986 I would say I did not take any active role in terms of ...[intervention]

MR LENGANE: Yes, please carry on.

MR POTSANE: In terms of carrying out the operation.  As I've already stated I was staying with the commander, that is Jabu Masina in Mamelodi and during the process of which, I think when the reconnaissance was started two weeks before, as Mr Masango has already said ...[intervention]

MR LENGANE: Excuse me, just hold it there Mr Potsane.  You are saying to us that on that particular day you did not have any direct role in the killing of Brigadier Molope, is that correct?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: Prior to that day, did you have anything to do together with members of your unit?  Did you have anything to do around discussions, the identification and so on, of Mr Molope as a target?

MR POTSANE: Well Mr Molope as a target, when it was actually discussed I was present.  Actually we discussed Mr Molope in the light that is he or not a legitimate target and then we continued to spell out and then all the things that were relevant, that Mr Molope had taken part in the Winterveld Massacre, people who were detained were actually talking about him, that he was brutal to them.
	Furthermore there was also the Commission of Inquiry which was going on at the time of which Mr Molope was the, if I may have to say, the prime accused person of, actually responsible of issuing out an order to kill the people who were on the march there.  Of which Mr Molope admitted, he had admitted that he was actually responsible for taking out that order.

MR LENGANE: Excuse me about that.  Please carry on Mr Potsane.

MR POTSANE: Well in the light of all those factors you know as the unit, and I was present too when in actual fact it was decided that Mr Molope should be eliminated.

MR LENGANE: So in a sense Mr Potsane, you are telling the Committee that you are in some way associated with the incident together with Mr Masina and Masango and Makhura?  Is that what you are saying?  Despite the fact that you were not there on the 21st of June 1986.

MR POTSANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LENGANE: You have said to the Committee today that there was a Commission of Inquiry at which Mr Molope was the prime accused, please very briefly explain what you mean by that.

MR POTSANE: What I mean about that is this Commission was instituted in order to look into the facts that led to the massacre or the killings of the eleven people who died there and Mr Molope was one of the persons who was supposed to come and give evidence there as to how things turned out and he indeed confirmed that he actually gave out an order to shoot.

MR LENGANE: When did it come to your notice, when did you come to know that Mr Molope had made that admission, was it after he had been killed, before he was identified or during the Commission?

MR POTSANE: I cannot recall exactly when but it could have been around, because if I recall very well the Commission should have started around April and it could have been somewhere between then and August.

MR LENGANE: Just one last two questions Mr Potsane.  Is there anything else that you would like to say that you have not said yet?

MR POTSANE: Well I must say that I've come here as a person and also believing that my coming here is a correct one because from the moment that this process was started I never had any doubt that it is going to have some form of benefit to us.
	Even though it might not have direct benefit to us I know that we are going to have kids who are going to remain behind after this dust has settled and those kids, I wish they could grow up in the spirit of which there will be no finger pointing.  I just wish that the family of Mr Molope, I know they have lost a dear father but the events just turned out that he happened to be on the other side of where I was and I had a responsibility to do.  At that time to advance the cause of our people and to protect them.  And all that was not done in order to hurt them as individuals.  
	I am ready to extend my hand of friendship to them if they will allow me and I know the pain they are going through even though this matter has happened 12 years ago.  I know it's painful to lose a father.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lengane?

MR LENGANE: That will be all, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LENGANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Potsane, you testified that you were present when the planning or the plotting was being done, am I correct?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who took the decision to eliminate Molope?

MR POTSANE: When the planning is done, especially on a sensitive matter like when a person is going to be killed, each and every person in it will become effective and then you know, put them on the table and finally the decision will come you know, with the commander that indeed these factors suffice that you know, that this action can be taken.  So it was Mr Jabu Masina who finally took the decision as a commander.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: After all of you had put the factors on the table?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And by these factors put by an individual it would mean that the individual what he was talking about when placing it on the table.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  Tell us the factors that you put on the table that influenced the decision.

MR POTSANE: I'm not sure that I may be able to give you directly what I said as this matter happened 12 years ago but I could give you the general factors that were there.  As I've already said you know, he was part of the ...[intervention]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Alright, let us avoid generalities, did you put any factors yourself?

MR POTSANE: Ja, I'm sure I did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's get your factors, not general factors.

MR POTSANE: Yes.  Honourable members of the Commission, I'm sure that, this matter happened 12 years ago.  In that situation we were a few - our unit consisted of a few members and in that situation you will have a chance to talk one way or the other you know ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Potsane, were you involved in the reconnaissance at all?

MR POTSANE: No, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?

MR POTSANE: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying then that if you made a contribution it was just in the discussion, the general discussion?  You didn't bring any information that you had dug up yourself or established yourself in regard to the matter?

MR POTSANE: No, Your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Alright, let's pass that one.  In your application this is what you have all mentioned and I will quote it because I'm talking to you now.  Under paragraph 10(a) where it says: State Political Objective you achieved, amongst others you say
"The furtherance of the armed struggle against the apartheid state with the intention of overthrowing this state and replacing it with a democratic one"
You remember that?

MR POTSANE: Yes.