Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

MR VISSER: Please go ahead, Mr Motsamai.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I am waiting for the Chairperson and the Committee to finish writing.

MR VISSER: The witness wishes to explain something, but he is not getting so far, Mr Chairman, he is waiting for you he says.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The students of COSAS at Wulamasango School suspected  that Gosi was my informer because I used to visit his home several times with a vehicle.
	They called a meeting at Zinzele Hall.  Now the students were gathering together from different schools, Lerekum, Mohemeke, Wulamasango, they were all gathered at the place.
	It was their plan to get him to clearly get his story of being in my presence.  That hall there was a dubbing machine.  This was fixed inside the hall, I do not know where was it fixed.  Was it at the plugs, but when there was a meeting at the hall, we would hear from our offices using headphones.
	The Chairman of that day, according to what we heard through the headphones was Oupa Makhubalo.  Gosi, the deceased was called to the front to explain what is it that I want with a vehicle at his home.  He went and he explained that I am visiting his home to see his parents because I used to visit them.
	Because the students did not understand what he was saying, they stood up and we could hear it from our earphones, they took chairs, throwing them at where he was standing.  Oupa Makhubalo tried to stop them as we were listening through the earphones.
	They were unstoppable.  Mohapi stood up too, he tried to intervene, to talk to them.

MR VISSER: Which Mohapi was this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: White Mohapi, My Lord.  They were really unstoppable until he was in their hands.  They assaulted him.  He was a bodybuilder, he tried by all means to escape until he went outside and there was silence in the hall, but you could hear that something was happening outside.
	The noise was outside.  That is how this child died.  It is not that he was an informer.  The office kept quiet about this matter.

MR VISSER: Yes, I am certain Mr Motsamai.  The point is you say he was not killed because he was an informer, but on your own evidence he was killed because at least he was suspected to be an informer and in fact it was the impression which the COSAS students had, that he was your informer, isn't that so?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is not the way you put it.  They were thinking that he was my informer.  You were instructed and you come to the TRC with a direct information that he was my informer.  I am telling you he was not my informer.  The students suspected.  Don't really press that he was my informer, I am still maintaining he was not my informer.	The students suspected that he was.

MR VISSER: Right, why did you go to Oupa Makhubalo's house on the occasion that he was shot at?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I said Sergeant Mamome came running when we were in the office.  It was at Monase's place and he said to us Lieutenant Shaw said the person we are looking for, is present at Monase's home and we should make it a point to shoot him.

MR VISSER: Were you not told to go and arrest him?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.  That was after they were informed that he killed Gosi.

MR VISSER: You just told us that you were told to make a point of shooting him, Mr Motsamai.  That is not what you told this Committee.  You told the Committee earlier that you were sent to arrest him and if he should try to escape, then to shoot him.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Trying to escape and shooting is the same as what I have explained.

MR VISSER: Perhaps to you it is.  You see ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What Counsel is asking you is not about trying to escape and shooting, what he is saying is the first version you gave was that your instructions were to go and arrest him and only if he tried to escape, to shoot.  Whereas now you have just said the instructions you were given from Lieutenant Shaw was to go to the house and shoot him.  Do you see the difference?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That was the first instruction we got.  Maybe I did not complete what I wanted to say.

MR VISSER: All right, will you tell us how many instructions did you get.  First Mamome came in and he said we've got to go somewhere, and what did he say?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sergeant Mamome came in to inform us.

MR VISSER: What did he come to inform you, please Mr Motsamai can we move along please?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: To go and arrest this person.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Did Lieutenant Shaw give you any instructions?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Lieutenant Shaw did not give us instructions.  When we came back My Lord, to ensure that he had given instructions, when we arrived, he came to us and we have used our bullets.  Some of us even used seven bullets. We were given bullets to fill the gap that we have used.

MR VISSER: I am not asking you about bullets Mr Motsamai.  Please concentrate if you will.  I am asking you whether Lieutenant Shaw gave you instructions and I have now understood you to say he didn't give instructions because you brought Makhubalo back with you and then you reported to him.  But he didn't give instructions before you left, is that what you are telling us?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The first instruction which came through Mr Mamome made us not to go to his office, we went out of the office running to the place where Makhubalo was.  I am not against what you are saying.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I just want to be fair to you and make certain that I understand your evidence.  And I must therefore repeat this question.  Is it your evidence that Lieutenant Shaw did not give you any instructions before you went out to go and arrest Oupa Makhubalo on that day?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not know whether I will be repeating myself, but I am saying the instructions that we were given came through Sergeant Mamome.

MR VISSER: You see Mamome indeed confirms that you accompanied him to go and arrest Oupa Makhubalo.  He will tell the Committee that what happened here was the moment you saw Oupa Makhubalo, you jumped out of the car, pulled out your firearm and started shooting at him.  You Mr Motsamai.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is not like that.  When a car stopped, he was driving and I was in the passenger seat.  When the car stopped, Oupa will be the witness too.  The gun went off quickly.   He first took out his gun and he is the first to shoot.

MR VISSER: Which gun went off quickly Mr Motsamai, whatever that means?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, there might be some misunderstanding.  The witness said something like he took out the firearm first, and it was interpreted as Makhubalo took out the firearm first.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.

ADV MEMANI: May that be cleared up.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't know the interpreters shake their heads as though that is not the true version that you are putting to us, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: Well, the word that he used was (indistinct) which would be he took out the firearm first and it is not clear there to me whether he is referring to Makhubalo or he is referring to the policemen, Mamome.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said Mamome.

INTERPRETER: The interpretation was that he, which means Mamome, took out the gun first.

MR VISSER: At all events, I will undertake not to hold that against Mr Motsamai, that version Mr Chairman.  I am asking you this, which gun went off quickly, because those were the words you used.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is Sergeant Mamome's gun because he was sitting on the driver's side.    He shot while he was still in the car and when he missed him, he opened the door and I also opened the door and I went to the other side.  I did not take the direction Oupa Makhubalo took.	Because I realised that he was going to jump over the fence.