Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: The new building, I see it is a new building when I went there the last time.  When we were there in 1985 this building was not there ...[intervention]

MR LAMEY: Are you looking at photograph number 7?

JOE MAMASELA: Ja.

MR LAMEY: Now I want to put it to you that photograph number 7 on Exhibit B and photograph number 7 on Exhibit ...[intervention]
...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry which photos are you comparing?

MR LAMEY: Photograph number 7 on the blue bundle of photographs which was handed in by Mr Niewoudt comparing that photograph ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] 2 Mr Lamey, it's called volume 2, the blue bundle, the one with the map in front.  It's the one with the map in front yes.

MR LAMEY: I'm comparing photograph number 7 on that blue bundle with photograph number 7 in Exhibit P.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Isn't that the same building Mr Mamasela?

JOE MAMASELA: Mr Chairman, as you can well see there's an extensive renovation of the building, how will I know?  I last saw the building in 1985, now it's extensively ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: No, but the only thing I'm asking is, the two photographs both before numbered number 7, isn't that the photo of the same building, the two doors, the one is a nearer one, there's the tree, look at the roof ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: No, I said I identified this one, I don't want to commit myself Mr Chairman because the next thing I'll be tying myself into a knot.  I will always stick with what I believe in.  Photograph number 7 in this is the place, this one I'm not sure, it's renovated, I'm I don't know, it might be it as far as I'm concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think Mr Lamey, it's a fair comment.  If you compare them, the one thing you see at once in the photo number 7 in Exhibit B, I think you said Exhibit B, I see open doors with a blue colour inside and on photograph number 7 of P the doors are closed and they look red.
	Possibly also even on the previous one they are red from outside, I don't know but it's just that they are open and in P7 we have got a more fuller picture of the building whereas in the other one the picture of the building is not complete, it's not that complete.
	One gets the feeling that is the same building but as the witness says, he can't commit himself and I think it's a fact.

MR LAMEY: But Mr Mamasela, you've also indicated on the aerial photograph that the cells are number B on photograph number 1 of Exhibit P, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: I said I'm not sure, I'm not a good reader of aerial photography but I took a guess and my guess is it will be this one.  If it is not so be it, if it is I'm happy.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you can put your question on the assumption that it is the same building.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, now I want to refer you still to Exhibit P photograph number 8 and photograph number 9 and 10.  Do you see that?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I see that.

MR LAMEY: Do you recognise that building?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I recognise it.

MR LAMEY: You saw it at the time when you were at Post Chalmers?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, but it did not look like this it was red, it was just bricks and it was not painted white and the roof was not painted silver it was red.  It was stones, red stones and the red roof, it was not painted like this when I saw it in 1985.

MR LAMEY: Did you ever enter that building which is shown on photograph number 8?

JOE MAMASELA: No, it was always locked.

MR LAMEY: It was always locked?

JOE MAMASELA: Ja.  There was a board indicating that it - Old Cradock Police or whatever, police office of police station yes, nearby.

MR LAMEY: How do you know it was locked?

JOE MAMASELA: It was locked, you could see even the doors from outside, it was locked.  We tried to open other buildings around, they were locked, we wanted water.

MR LAMEY: So I take it that Mr Mogoai and Koole wasn't able to enter that building?

JOE MAMASELA: In my opinion it was always locked.  If they entered it then it's their own funeral.  They will tell you how they entered it because in my opinion it was locked.

MR LAMEY: I see.  Now can you have a look at photograph number 13?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: I want to, on Exhibit P, I want you specifically - you can see it's a renovated, well it's a furnished room or something.

JOE MAMASELA: Extensively renovated, yes.

MR LAMEY: Right.  Can you see those rings there in the wall?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Does that resemble the type of horse things that these PEBCO 3 were chained to?

JOE MAMASELA: I'm not sure about this stuff, I don't want to commit myself, I've said it before.  It was at night and mostly Piet was the one who was having the keys to unchain these people and to chain them, I don't want to commit myself.

MR LAMEY: Who had the keys to unchain them?

JOE MAMASELA: Piet Mogoai.

MR LAMEY: And who took the PEBCO 3 people out the following day during the daylight?

JOE MAMASELA: Myself and Piet.  I said it throughout, it was myself and Piet.

MR LAMEY: Now were you not able to see to what they were chained?

JOE MAMASELA: No.  I cannot recollect a little minute chains, I don't commit myself.  I don't want to commit myself.

MR LAMEY: You took all three of them out, you and Piet Mogoai only?

JOE MAMASELA: No, not all three me and Piet Mogoai only, Godolozi, Sipho Hashe I think they went to fetch him while I was doing the breakfast file.  He was brought by Piet and Koole I suppose, this is what I said.  And then I was told with Piet Mogoai to go and fetch Godolozi and to fetch Champion Galela.

MR LAMEY: Are you sure that Mr Hashe was also in the garage?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I'm sure, they were all three in that shed.

MR LAMEY: The whole time?

JOE MAMASELA: At all material times to the best of my recollection.

MR LAMEY: And it was in this garage and this shed that their bodies were thrown into, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, yes.

MR LAMEY: Now Mr Mogoai testified that upon arrival at Post Chalmers somebody said: "Take Galela to the cells", can you recall that?

JOE MAMASELA: No, that's nonsense, the cells doors were wide open, there were no keys for the cells.  They were dilapidated, you couldn't keep a person there.

MR LAMEY: I see.  Now, Mr Mamasela, Mr Mogoai further testified that Mr Hashe was tied to these rings, the rings in a room.

JOE MAMASELA: It depends on what you call a room, a shed can be a room also, it can be called a room.

MR LAMEY: A room in a house?

JOE MAMASELA: In a house? No.  I don't know but I know of a shed.  If he calls a shed a house ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, I've already put that to him a few minutes ago, he denied that and he said that as far as he is concerned that is not true.

MR LAMEY: Now what I want to put to you further Mr Mamasela is that these rings that you see on photograph number 13 - can you just have a look at photograph number 13 Exhibit P?

JOE MAMASELA: I've seen that, wherein you said it's ...[indistinct] all that, I've seen that picture.

MR LAMEY: And I will lead further evidence if necessary but I want to put it to you now that that is a room in the house shown on photograph number 8.  Can you look at photograph number 8?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I've told you I've seen the house, it was a what what and it was locked, I've never in there, I cannot comment on things that I don't know.  I have never been in there myself and I've never seen anybody entering and coming out of there.

MR LAMEY: And you and Mogoai and Koole were always together?

JOE MAMASELA: Always together.

MR LAMEY: Yes.  So, and it wasn't possible to go into that house because it was locked?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.