Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

LUCKY SITHOLE: It is personal, but what was on my mind, I thought that it would be connected to politics, so that it doesn't actually get into the organisation's activities.

MS THABETHE: Did you have any legal advice when you completed this form?

LUCKY SITHOLE: No.

MS THABETHE: I just want to follow up on another aspect of your evidence that you gave earlier on.  When you were talking about having left the bottle store, and having gone to Greytown, what led you to leave the car in Greytown and walk the 100 metres that you were referring to earlier on?  Can you just explain that, how did it come about that you left the car and then you walked, and then the policeman found you?

LUCKY SITHOLE: When I was in Greytown, I was alone.  I left the car because I wanted to put it there to cool off, it was not that I was abandoning the car.  I had to run away and I had to use the same car crossing the border to Mozambique, I was not abandoning the car, I just wanted to leave it there for a while.

MS THABETHE: What do you mean that you left the car to cool down, what do you mean by that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I wanted to leave the car there and make sure, and make sure that the police are not following me, and even if they would find the car, they wouldn't, I wanted the police not to find me in the car, and I would later go back and get the car.

MS THABETHE: What about the money and the ID that you left in the car, didn't you think they could trace you if they found the car and your ID?

LUCKY SITHOLE: When I was running away, that did not come to my mind, I did not think that my identity document and the money in the bag, but what was important to me was to leave the car there for a while.  I didn't even think that the bag was in the car, I thought that some of my colleagues had taken the bag and the travel document and the ID.  It was a mistake from me to leave them in the car, because those were the things that would implicate me, if found.

MR LAX: How were you going to get across the border into Mozambique, without travel documents, if you thought that your colleagues had taken it?

LUCKY SITHOLE: In my mind I didn't think that the ID and the travel document were in the bag, I thought that they were in my jacket, as I was wearing a suit.  Those are the things that I normally kept in my jacket.

MR LAX: You have just told us two seconds ago that you thought they were in the bag and that your colleague took them?  Those were your very words?  Carry on Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  I just want to finalise one thing, is it your evidence that the robbery and the attempted robbery that you committed, was done under the auspices of the ANC?  Is that your evidence?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: Do you know Mr Tom Madlala?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I know him.

MS THABETHE: Have you spoken to him with regard to this incident before?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes.  When we saw each other in prison, he had been there for quite a long time, and we would discuss about these things, together with other comrades.   We would make a joke about all these incidents.

MS THABETHE: I am not talking about an informal meeting, was there a situation where there was a formal meeting, that is between you prisoners and the ANC officials, to discuss your incidents?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, it happened.  If I am not mistaken, it was in 1996.  We had a meeting, a very important meeting, where the ANC leaders were there and we discussed about this.

MS THABETHE: Just to clarify, was the ANC leadership aware of your incident, your specific incident?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Those who were present, visiting us on that particular day, they did not know about this incident, but I am not sure among them, who knew about this incident.  But as we were discussing there, no one knew a thing about this incident.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: I have no questions, Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Any more witnesses, Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I would like to call Mr Tom Madlala.

CHAIRPERSON: I am in your hands, if you want to call him, you call him.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madlala, what language would you prefer to use?

TOM MADLALA: Zulu.

TOM MADLALA: (sworn states)

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Madlala, do you know the applicant seated here?

TOM MADLALA: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: How did it come about that you knew him?

TOM MADLALA: I first saw him in prison, in Westville prison.  He was with the other ANC members.

MS MOHAMED: When you were at Westville prison, were you an ANC member?

TOM MADLALA: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: Did you feature on the ANC structures at the prison?

TOM MADLALA: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: What position did you occupy?

TOM MADLALA: I was the Chairperson of the ANC.

MS MOHAMED: Do you recall the applicant ever discussing these incidents with you?

TOM MADLALA: The one that I first heard about was on the 6th of September 1995, when we were paid a visit by the ANC leadership, who were coming from the national organisation.  The comrade, Carl Niehaus was from the National Executive, there was Bheki Cele who was a Deputy Secretary in the province at the time.
	There was Sanso Nxunu who was the First Secretary of the ANC.  There was a mass meeting of all the ANC comrades in church hall in the prison.  That is when I first heard about the cases where comrades were involved, almost half of them, and the complaints that the comrades had, we heard about them on that particular day.
	As usual the MK members in prison, Lucky Sithole would be the one who would represent all the MK cadres in prison.  Their living conditions and the ANC activities, he would talk about those, and he would even talk about the integration after they are released and about their pensions.  That was Lucky's task to forward that information to the leadership.

MS MOHAMED: Can you recall whether Mr Sithole discussed this incident, in other words his involvement in this incident, with the ANC leadership at that meeting?

TOM MADLALA: Yes, he made mention of that.  Can I say something?  What Lucky stated there, it was an accusation that was directed to the ANC leadership, in that mass meeting.  Not in the caucus, but he stated that specifically in that mass meeting he was open about it, and then he said after coming from the exile, they were given instructions by the Commanders to commit crimes like robbery in order to help the organisation.
	But the very same organisation now is in power and is doing nothing to help them get amnesty.   The responses came from comrades like Carl Niehaus, who said the ANC had given itself time to change all the laws, concerning indemnity.  Early in 1996 they promised that a TRC body would be established.  Everybody who was in prison for politically motivated crimes, they should use the opportunity to apply for amnesty, and these people should reveal everything that they know.
	That was the only first forum that was established by the ANC government, it was this TRC.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: What about indemnity?