Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Now whose meeting was this?

ROLAND PETROS: It was a meeting of the self-defence unit.

<UNKNOWN>: It was not a meeting of the community as awhole?

ROLAND PETROS: No.

<UNKNOWN>: Now when you say it was not a meeting of thecommunity as a whole which part of the community was attendingthe meeting?

ROLAND PETROS: Earlier that afternoon there had been a meetingattended by the whole community, but as a result of feedback fromthat meeting this person was sent to us after we had had our meetingat a later stage, and this person was sent to us with the messagefrom the community's meeting which had taken place earlier thatday.  I can't remember whether it was on the same day or the previousday.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Petros are you saying now on this particularday there were two separate meetings, one of the community andlater of the SDU's?

ROLAND PETROS: No, no I am not saying it's on the same daythat this took place, I am saying that I am not sure whether itwas the previous day that the community meeting took place oron the same day as our self-defence meeting.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you attend the meeting of the community?

ROLAND PETROS: No.

<UNKNOWN>: Did anything that was discussed in the meetingof the community was it ever taken over to the meeting of theSDU's.

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now who took that which came from the committeeto the SDU's, who made a report to you?

ROLAND PETROS: I can't remember exactly who brought thisinstruction to us.  I think I arrived at the meeting five minuteslate.  The meeting had already started.

<UNKNOWN>: If you could speak a little bit louder, wehave got a problem with hearing.

ROLAND PETROS: I say I cannot remember who brought us theparticular instruction to our meeting because I arrived a bitlate at the meeting and the time that I arrived there the meetingwas already under way.

<UNKNOWN>: But did you hear what was said in the SDU meetingfrom the community meeting, did you hear everything?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.  That the community was requesting usas self-defence unit to eliminate this person.

<UNKNOWN>: Now where did you get the firearm from, theone which you used in killing Diwiti?

ROLAND PETROS: I got the firearm from Sergeant Jacobs. SergeantJacobs, I think he was stationed at Langlaagte Police Station. I obtained the firearm from him to complete my shooting lessonswhich (Side A of tape 1 ends).  ...training.

<UNKNOWN>: You had dealings with the police yourself?

ROLAND PETROS: No.  This person loaned me the firearm.  Atthat stage I was struggling to get my firearm licence so the firearmis given to me so that I could complete my training in order toobtain the licence.

<UNKNOWN>: Is there any relationship between yourselfand this policeman who gave you the firearm?

ROLAND PETROS: No, no there was no relationship between thetwo of us.  We just attended the same church at some stage andI know that he was a good person.  At the stage when he gave methe firearm he did not know anything about the act which I wasplanning to commit with the firearm.

<UNKNOWN>: But you've testified Mr Petros that you hadno confidence in the police because the police were assistingthe Three Million gang, how do you explain your getting a firearmfrom the very police you don't have confidence in?

ROLAND PETROS: This person lives in Johannesburg and he wasnot aware of circumstances in Kroonstad at that stage.

<UNKNOWN>: Am I right then to understand you to be sayingthat when you say you do not have confidence in the police youare referring in particular to the Kroonstad police only?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes that is entirely correct.

<UNKNOWN>: In your evidence when led you simply statedthat you killed the deceased at a taxi rank, could you tell usin detail how you did this, how you planned this, let us knowexactly what happened?

ROLAND PETROS: I walked up to this person, this person GeorgeRamasimong was with his gang.  I think there were about 12 or15 of them I can't remember exactly, because they knew me I worea balaclava so they wouldn't identify me because if they had identifiedme and recognised me they would have attacked me and not the otherway round, so I was wearing this balaclava to stop them from recognisingmy face.  The person walked to the taxi rank and walked througha passage, a little gate there, entered through the gate to thetaxi rank.  I was walking in amongst the members of the ThreeMillion, I walked up to him, I took out the firearm, went up tohim and a couple of the gang members behind me shouted at him,he turned around, he looked in my direction, he saw me approachingwith a firearm and he tried to run away, I shot. various shotsat him and he ran round the combi's at the taxi rank and the fenceis quite high on the other side so he couldn't run away.  So heactually cornered himself there, he turned around, he ran backtowards me, I ran towards him, I think I caused him to fall bykicking him on his chest, he tried to get up again whilst I wasstanding there, I knocked his feet out from under him so he felldown again, I then put my foot on his head and while he was lyingon the ground I shot him in the head.  I turned around again,I was alone, there was nobody else there and I then went backto the car, I ran away in the direction of the car.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Petros you have testified and you said youare sorry for what you have done, you asked for forgiveness.

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: In killing the deceased Diwiti do you thinkthat measure was justified to take human life?

ROLAND PETROS: No it was not justified.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you then agree with me that taking the circumstancesthat prevailed there, between yourself, that is your group andthe Three Million gang you went overboard by killing the deceased?

ROLAND PETROS: I never wanted to kill this man.  It was neverour plan to kill him but we had no choice but to kill him becausethere was nobody who could protect us, nobody who could complainabout this man and to seek help against all his actions.

<UNKNOWN>: No Mr Petros after killing this man was thereany political change in the area?

ROLAND PETROS: Since this man died, up until today, but notimmediately, I think it took a couple of months after his death,but up until today there's been a change in our society, thereis peace and stability.  The community is here to verify that,what I have just said now.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Petros I think thereis something that I think you must give a little bit more clarityto.  Now I think you need to just clarify something for us, Iwill try and lead you, this meeting to which we have now referredto at such a meeting could you perhaps tell us how this particularkind of meeting proceeds?  In other words is it a very formalkind of meeting or does it take place very informally?

ROLAND PETROS: It took place in a very informal way becauseat that stage it was easier for our enemies to kill us when wewere all gathered together like that so the meetings were veryinformal.

<UNKNOWN>: Is it so that there was a secretary that tookdown the minutes?

ROLAND PETROS: No, that did not happen.

<UNKNOWN>: And when people were given opportunities toask questions how did they do that?  At these meetings when peoplewanted to make some kind of contribution or input or ask questionshow was it done, how did it happen?

ROLAND PETROS: He simply voiced his opinion and then we sawwhat kind of feedback we could give him.

<UNKNOWN>: In other words a person could simply get upat the meeting and simply state what he had to say, he could simplysay no we can't continue with this, he must be killed, any individualcould do that?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: How do you think - in other words support thatposition?

ROLAND PETROS: Everybody supported the same point of viewso all the people at the meeting were in favour of this view.