Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

ADV STEENKAMP: You said earlier, and please help me if I am wrong, you earlier said that the deceased actually attacked you. Maybe not with his gun, but he attacked you. Did I understand you correctly?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did he attack all three of you, or what happened?

JOHN SERAME GULU: He attacked both of us, the third one came later, after the incident.

ADV STEENKAMP: And how did he attack you?

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Mr Gulu, who was this third one that came later?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is my brother, Isaac Gulu.

UNKNOWN: And you said he came after the incident. After what incident?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, he came after the fight.

UNKNOWN: After or before the stabbing?
INTERPRETER ASKED A QUESTION

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: What is correct? Did he come after the stabbing or did he come before the stabbing?

JOHN SERAME GULU: He came after I had stabbed the deceased.

UNKNOWN: So your brother wasn't present when the deceased was stabbed?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Not at all. He was not present.

UNKNOWN: OK. Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman. If I may be allowed, Mr Chairman, just a last question. If I can just get an answer there. Can you just tell us, tell the Committee, how exactly did the accused attack you? What did he do?

JOHN SERAME GULU: He did not attack me first, but he attacked my brother. His friends came to me, that is the time when they were attacking us. He started by fighting my brother and his friends were fighting me.

ADV STEENKAMP: You see, sir, why I am asking this question, because according to all the statements contained in the bundle, and Mr Chairman specifically the statement appearing on page 74, Mr John Mfani, there's also a statement by Mr Patrick Ire on page 70. These people are saying that the deceased actually tried to run away and then he was grabbed and then he was killed. He didn't attack anybody, he was actually trying to get away from you. Do you have any comment on that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes. The deceased was not trying to run away, they were fighting. The three of them were fighting. No one was trying to run away.

ADV STEENKAMP: The other question I want to ask you. If I look at the court record, there is no indication whatsoever that the act you committed was with a political motivation. No where in the record I can find any indication to that extent. Do you have any comment on that, why that was not mentioned at the Supreme Court by any of the accused or any witness or anybody who participated in this hearing? I mean in that hearing, Supreme Court hearing.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct. It doesn't appear there, because when we were trying to testify freely, as we told them that we were members of the ANC and that the incident was politically motivated, they disputed that fact.

ADV STEENKAMP: So, what are you saying? Did you mention this or didn't you mention this?

JOHN SERAME GULU: We mentioned this, but the Court denied to us to accept that statement.

ADV STEENKAMP: But there's no record whatsoever about this, that this incident was politically motivated whatsoever in the record. Can you explain that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I would agree with you, because what I have just said is that the Court did not admit that this case was politically motivated or this incident was politically motivated, and then they did not allow members of the ANC to enter into that court. They told us that they were not accepting that this incident was politically motivated.

ADV STEENKAMP: If I understand your evidence correctly, you are saying, basically, that the deceased was a member of the so-called Eagles gang, or at least he was member of it, and that was the basic reason why the deceased were killed. Am I right in saying that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, the deceased was a member of the Eagles gang.

ADV STEENKAMP: You see, once again, sir, I would like to put it to you, for your comment, that nowhere in any record, even any statements made by yourself or any evidence before the Supreme Court, there was any information put to the judge at the time, that the deceased was a member of any gang, or specifically the Eagles gang. Can you, do you have any comment on that, why that was not put before the judge or to anybody?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no. No, Mr Steenkamp. ... (intervention)

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I have the judgement on sentence before me. I'm not sure where the judgement on the merits ... (intervention)

ADV STEENKAMP: I apologise, Mr Chairman, my questions ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Appear, but on page 32 of the record ...  (intervention)

ADV STEENKAMP: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I do, I withdraw the question. I can just reframe it. The question is, my actual question is, there's no mention of the Eagles gang. Maybe I'm wrong, but it can be seen - let me put it to you this way. Did you tell anybody or as far as you can remember, did anybody tell the Supreme Court the deceased was a member of a gang that was harassing the community?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, we repeatedly told our legal counsel that the deceased was a member of the Eagles gang.

ADV STEENKAMP: Just dealing with the Eagles gang for the moment, this incident happened in 1992, May, during May 1992, and specifically on the 30th of May 1992. That's correct, you agree with me there?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now, you see, the information that was handed to your attorney as well, and that's before the Committee, all research information, all information that was gathered by, from different sources, points to the fact that the Eagles or the Eagles gang, as existed then, was actually disbanded in 1990. What I am trying to say, in 1992 there was no Eagles gang. Do you have any comment on that? In other words, it was impossible for the deceased to be a member of the Eagles gang at the time when he was killed.

JOHN SERAME GULU: The deceased was a member of the Eagles gang. It was disbanded on the 30th May after the deceased was killed.

ADV STEENKAMP: So, am I right in saying you are disputing the fact that the gang or at least this Eagles structure as it then existed was not disbanded in 1990, but you are saying only after 1992, at least only after the incident. Is that what you are saying?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr  Steenkamp, we do of course have Mr Morwaeng's statement on page 20, that deals with that specifically. Maybe in fairness, you should put that to the witness, to the applicant rather as well.

ADV STEENKAMP: Ah, yes, ah ... (intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Paragraphs 1 to 3 ... (intervention)