Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question would be, just to give an example, if a person, let's say he's being Court Martialled for failing to obey an order, a military thing, and it comes out in the Court Martial that he failed to obey an order to go and murder somebody ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Or to blow up a building.

CHAIRPERSON: ... or to blow up a building, then there would be some duty in law, a duty in law in the person receiving that information of a crime being committed such as murder, to report that to the police.

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct, Chairperson, it would be reported to the police.

GEORGE BIZOS: You would also have had to have a compliant lawyer representing the accused, that he would keep quiet about the crimes that were disclosed, and I would hope that there were not too many compliant lawyers around.

EDWARD WEBB: That is not a question that I can answer.  We never had such an example, so were are simply sitting here and speculating actually.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  A copy of your evidence in the Webster Inquest was made available to you, have you seen it?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the document that was placed on the table this morning?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Could we have a bundle number for it please, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It will N.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, not exhibit, bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh bundle.

MS COLERIDGE: H, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Bundle H, not exhibit H, but bundle H.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I don't want to take up time by referring to all the specific contradictions between that evidence, your evidence here and your evidence before the Harms Commission, there are just one or two things that I want to ask you about it.  Are you satisfied that this is a correct record of what you said before His Lordship, Mr Justice Stegman?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And in so far as it conflicts with your evidence either here or at the Harms Commission, is there anything further that you want to say about it, or any explanation that you want to offer?  Because we are going to refer to the contents of this as a statement of yours made on a previous occasion, during the argument.  Do you want to add anything to it, or explain anything?

EDWARD WEBB: Well I had no opportunity to read it, the document was handed to me this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, sorry it's my fault, but this is an extract of his evidence given where?

GEORGE BIZOS: Before His Lordship, Mr Justice Stegman ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: At the inquest?

GEORGE BIZOS: At the Webster Inquest.
	Well we'll proceed on the basis that it's correctly recorded, you'll have an opportunity possibly to read it and you can consult with your counsel, your attorney if there is anything that is wrong or anything else that you want to explain it.  Can we proceed on that basis, so that we do not take up time?  I see that your legal representative nods, can we proceed?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: There are just two or three things in it that I want to draw attention to, which you might want to deal with.  Will you please have a look at pages 1697, where you are asked about Mr van Zyl's evidence in relation to his briefing.  Will you read from line 20 please to over the page.
GEN WEBB
"Ja.  General, I just want to put it to you that my instructions from my clients are that they were told that your function would be anything from the disruption or the maximal disruption of the enemy within the Republic of South Africa, anything from the breaking of a window to the killing of a person, that it was conveyed to them as such and that that was their instruction and training."

GEORGE BIZOS: Read your answer, General.
GEN WEBB
"A person would want to accept and assume that it would also be necessary to motivate the members.  If I may make a comparison here between that and a rugby team."

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I just want to ask you there, were you serious in this answer or were you having the Judge on?

EDWARD WEBB: I was not present at the briefing which the CCB members received and to which this relates, where these things were told to them ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I'm asking you whether you were serious about your answer or whether you were having the Judge and the other people there, on?  That the instructions to kill are different - are the same as the briefing of a rugby team?

EDWARD WEBB: I certainly was not trying to mislead the Judge or to try and be facetious.

GEORGE BIZOS: This was a serious question by the representative of the operatives, perhaps - it must have been Mr du Plessis I take it, acting on behalf of three clients at that time.  Was it Mr Burger, Mr van Zyl and ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, it was Mr van Zyl, Mr Botha and Mr Barnard.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now the question that was put to you that there was an instruction that they must kill and you choose to give, to equate it with a briefing of a rugby team, were you serious or were you having the Judge on?

EDWARD WEBB: I was not involved in this briefing of these people and in my view it could have been done to motivate the people.  To motivate them to commit murder, like you motivated according - well read the rest of your answer, because I think that you have lost sight of reality, General.  Just read it.
GEN WEBB
"I see.  Before a rugby team goes onto the field you tell the men for instance, "look guys, we've got to really tackle these guys and we're not going to take any nonsense, we are just going to tackle them right from the beginning."
		"Yes."
		"But that does not justify any player to go out onto the field and immediately to assault his opponent."

GEORGE BIZOS: And you thought that that was a relevant metaphor or simile.

EDWARD WEBB: Relevant in respect of the motivation of people, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't think I'll take up any more of the Committee's time in relation to that.
	Could you please turn to page 1704, where you admit that Verster was lying to the Commission on oath at the Harms, about Omar and Evans.  Is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: From which line do you want me to read?