Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR ARMOED: One SDU member, he is not here now, he is Manyinalese, that is his name.

ADV MOTATA: Are you saying then that only one member had a  stick?

MR ARMOED: The one stick that I saw being used was only that one.   I cannot remember whether there were other sticks or not, but we usually used to carry sticks.

ADV MOTATA: Now those who were carrying guns, for instance AK47's, did they use such weaponry in the assault?

MR ARMOED: No, they did not use the guns at that time.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, chairperson, I've got no further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: You told us that you came to Moleleki section in about August 1993?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: You were an operator, were you not?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that's correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you trained how to use the firearm?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I was trained.

MR SIBANYONI: And did you take part in the activities of the SDU?

MR ARMOED: Sometimes, if I was present, I used to take part in the activities of the SDU, yes.

MR SIBANYONI: There is an allegation by some of the witnesses, such as Jabulani Nkmalo, Thulam Hendinlolu(??), and (Indistinct) and Vuyana Tshabalala, to the effect that initially the SDU's patrolled during the night, while the Youth League patrolled in the evening.   Do you know that?

MR ARMOED: No, I don't know a thing about that.

MR SIBANYONI: These individuals that I've mentioned, Tshabalala, Nkmalo, Maya, further allege that, despite patrols conducted by the SDU in the evening, there were bodies of individuals which were found, and that led to the dissatisfaction with the SDU.   Do you know anything about that?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I would like to say something about this.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes?

MR ARMOED: They too used to patrol the whole night, together with our SDU, not that they used to patrol in the evening only, and the SDU patrol at night, no, that was not the case.   Yes, it is true, we used to hear that a person has died somewhere, and therefore it was inexplicable as to how such a person had died.   Because of that, as time went on it transpired who were doing these things.

MR SIBANYONI: Who were responsible for these?

MR ARMOED: The very same Youth League, the ANC Youth League.

MR SIBANYONI: Was the community of Moleleki at any stage concerned about the fact that, despite patrols that were conducted, people died in circumstances where no-one seemed to know what was the cause why these people had been killed?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct, they were concerned.   I too was concerned about the people who were found dead, not knowing what the reason thereof is.

MR SIBANYONI: Was there any meeting which was called by the community in order to seek an answer to this problem?

MR ARMOED: I wouldn't say there was a meeting convened, because I myself was not there for a very long time, I was at work, most of the time that is.

MR SIBANYONI: At the time where were you working?

MR ARMOED: I was working at Majuba Power Station in Hammarsfort.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes.   And how often did you come home?

MR ARMOED: If I had left home on the 20th, I would come back on the 15th of the following month.

MR SIBANYONI: There is an allegation that some time in September 1993, a meeting of the community was called to address this problem of people dying despite the patrols, do you know of that meeting?

MR ARMOED: No, I don't know about that meeting.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you not told of any such meeting?

MR ARMOED: No.

MR SIBANYONI: When you returned from your place of employment, did you endeavour to find out how the problem of persons who were being killed despite the patrol had been resolved?

MR ARMOED: I tried to find out, and I was told the problem had not been solved, because people still died, they still continued to be killed.

MR SIBANYONI: Vuyani Tshabalala alleges that as a result of these inexplicable deaths, the Youth League decided to patrol blocks A, B, C and D.   Do you know anything about that?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I heard about that, that the Youth League patrols from block A to D, but as far as I saw them, they were all over the place.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you endeavour to find out why the Youth League was patrolling A to D?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I did ask that the Youth League patrolled from A to D, and they said they didn't want to combine with elder people.

MR SIBANYONI: Did the SDU accept this arrangement?

MR ARMOED: The SDU did not accept this arrangement.

MR SIBANYONI: Why not?

MR ARMOED: Because they realised that there was going to be a big trouble.

MR SIBANYONI: What trouble did they have in mind?

MR ARMOED: The very same problem of people dying and the car hijacking, and the shooting of cars.

MR SIBANYONI: And what steps, if any, were taken by the SDU to prevent this trouble?

MR ARMOED: I was not there, I just heard that the SDU is now patrolling the community taxis now that they were being shot, that is the taxis.

MR SIBANYONI: But what did they do about the fact that the Youth League was now patrolling blocks A, B, C and D?

MR ARMOED: I don't know, I know there's nothing they did, they accepted the fact that the Youth League was patrolling A, B, C and D.   According to my knowledge, as I heard, they did not accept that.

MR SIBANYONI: What did they do to make sure that that did not happen?

MR ARMOED: I don't know, it looks like they did nothing.

MR SIBANYONI: So even though they were not happy with the fact that the Youth League was patrolling A, B, C and D, they nevertheless did nothing?

MR ARMOED: No, I don't know whether there's something that they did, but according to my knowledge, there is nothing that they did.

MR SIBANYONI: They allowed the Youth League to continue patrolling A, B, C and D?

MR ARMOED: I don't know whether they accepted or not, but I just know they were not happy about the arrangement.   Whether they allowed them to continue, I don't know, I was not there.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you know of any actions that were taken by the SDU to ensure that the Youth League did not patrol A, B, C and D?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I can say they did take action to make sure that they don't patrol these areas, A, B, C and D, but all these other areas.

MR SIBANYONI: What steps did the SDU take?

MR ARMOED: They called these boys, spoke to them, talked to them and said, "Because you are patrolling from A to D, if you are all over the place, what is it that you are looking for?"

MR SIBANYONI: Would you just repeat that?

MR ARMOED: SDU members, we called these boys when we came across them at night and we said, "Now that you are here in F and you should be patrolling, you are patrolling A to D".

MR SIBANYONI: So the Youth League was called and asked, "Why are you patrolling F, because as far as we know, you're supposed to patrol A to D?"

MR ARMOED: Yes, we asked them.

MR SIBANYONI: So, in other words, the SDU accepted the fact that the Youth League was to patrol blocks A, B, C and D?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I can say so, but according to my knowledge, the last time I heard they had not accepted it.

MR SIBANYONI: It has taken you too long to answer that question.   Now when you met them at night and asked them, "Why are you now patrolling block F as well?", what did they say?

MR ARMOED: They said they don't want to be instructed by people who come from the rural areas, we should just leave them alone.

MR SIBANYONI: And what was the response of the SDU?

MR ARMOED: We let them go and they just continued.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes.   I understand that at some point there is a meeting which was held at block F, which was to discuss the formation of an SDU which was to patrol F section.   Do you know anything about that meeting?

MR ARMOED: Yes, there is a little that I heard about this meeting.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes.   What do you know about this meeting?

MR ARMOED: What I heard being said in that very same meeting, I was told that they were forming a new SDU.

MR SIBANYONI: This SDU was going to operate in F block?