Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Right.  Was it as a result of this meetingthat you acted in the way that you did?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes, yes there was an order from the communityto remove this person and this order was given at this particularmeeting.

UNKNOWN: What did you decide to do?

ROLAND PETROS: The instruction wasn't aimed specificallyat myself, but specifically everybody, any member of the self-protectionunit who found this person could kill him.

UNKNOWN: Your testimony is then that you weren'tspecifically approached and asked as an individual to kill thisperson?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What appeared from the meeting was thatanybody who came into contact with this particular person couldkill him?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Right, I'd like to get to the actualday of the incident.  What happened, what did you do on the dayof this particular incident?  Let me put it this way perhaps tokeep my questioning brief, do you confirm your explanation ofplea tendered in the Supreme Court when you pleaded guilty tothe murder?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes that's correct.

UNKNOWN: You then went to the taxi rank whereyou shot Diwiti dead?

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: After this person's death is that correct?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: At the start of the court proceedingsyou pleaded not guilty?

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: But later on you did plead guilty?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Could you explain to the Committee whyyou decided to change your plea to one of guilty?

ROLAND PETROS: Initially they wanted me to plead guilty butthey wanted me to place all the blame on Senator Bloem so thathe could go to prison for the act which I had committed.

UNKNOWN: I would just like to repeat my question,what I would like to know is initially you did not plead guilty?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: But later on you decided you were goingto change your plea, in other words you decided to admit thatyou had killed this person and that you had the intent to killhim?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes I am sorry I misunderstood the question.

UNKNOWN: Why the change of plea?

ROLAND PETROS: Well I felt that I wanted to be entirely honestand truthful with the State.

UNKNOWN: Do you know what happened after the deathof this person as regards the violence which took place in thevicinity, in the area?

ROLAND PETROS: Peace had been restored to the communities,it did take a little bit of time however.  From the time of hisdeath until this time there has been peace in our community, theentire community can confirm that.

UNKNOWN: How do you feel about the fact that youcommitted this act?  How do you feel about that right now?

ROLAND PETROS: I feel very bad about it, I feel very sorryabout the fact that I committed this deed.  I didn't want to commitit in the first place but because we had nobody else to protectus at that stage we had to protect ourselves and defend ourselves. This person should not have been dead today and I'm actuallyvery sorry that he is dead.  But if the South African Police hadhelped us then this person would never have died.  I am very sorrythat this person is dead because he was actually also an innocentperson who had been used by the SAP.  For that reason I'd liketo say, perhaps if his mother and other members of his familyare present, I would like to say that I am very sorry and I'dlike to ask their forgiveness.  I would want them to forgive meas God forgives us.  I am sorry that I killed this person.

UNKNOWN: In other words what you are telling theCommittee is that you are sorry that you had to be the personresponsible for executing the sentiments and demands of your society?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes the instructions came from the communityitself and was directed at us because we protected and defendedthe community.

UNKNOWN: You say that George Ramasimong was usedby the then South African Police?

ROLAND PETROS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Why do you say that?

ROLAND PETROS: I killed this person and I got 14 years imprisonmentfor this deed but this same person killed 102 people and thereis proof of that.  But this person didn't even receive 14 secondsof imprisonment for his deeds.

UNKNOWN: If it pleases you Mr Chairman I am justgoing through.  I still think that this question has not beenclearly answered, do you have any information, whether personallyor information that has been given to you that led to the conclusionthat the South African Police at the time were colluding and conspiringwith the Three Million gang.

ROLAND PETROS: Yes, I am sorry I haven't yet fully answeredthe question.  Evidence proves that this person was involved andcooperated with the South African Police in that he was neverarrested for any act committed by him.  This person was transportedin SAP bakkies and so on, and dropped off in various areas ofthe community to terrorise them and he was present when the SAPkilled certain members of the community.  Further evidence alsoshows that this person was given bail for each and every act thathe committed.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any information regardingthe relationship between George Ramasimong and the then Prosecutor,Miss Pienaar, or Mrs Pienaar?

ROLAND PETROS: There was a time when we were looking forthis person to remove him from society and as a result of thathe received certain information and went and hid himself at MrsPienaar's home.  As a result of this we knew that this personcolluded with the South African Police, because this person wentinto hiding at that particular place for his own safety and wecouldn't understand why he couldn't be kept in safe detentionat the police station.

UNKNOWN: Do you also have information that MrsPienaar had confirmed this, in other words that the Prosecutorhad confirmed this fact and she did not deny that Ramasimong hadcome to her house to hide?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes she admitted that and confirmed that. She confirmed that she had done that and we have evidence tothat effect.

UNKNOWN: Now these things, for instance the factthat there were allegations that police were conspiring with thegang, allegations that the police, that the leader of the gangsometimes went to sleep over at the home of the Prosecutor, whatfeelings did this evoke from yourself and the community?  Yousee now you were given the information and you heard the allegationsregarding police conspiracy, allegations were made about the factthat certain people were charged but soon let out on bail andthere were allegations that the leader of the gang sought safetyat the Prosecutor's home and stayed there for a while, now inthe light of all this information which you had, how did you feel? What I would like to establish, and what I'd like you to explainto the Committee is after you saw these things happening or heardthat these things were happening, how did you feel, did you feelsafe and secure or did you feel threatened and afraid?  What wenton in your mind at that time?

ROLAND PETROS: At that stage we felt that we are not safe.We felt that there was nobody to defend us and to protect us. We felt that there was no justice for us.

UNKNOWN: Did you have any faith and confidencein the police?

ROLAND PETROS: No, none at all, I had no confidence in theprevious dispensation and system.

UNKNOWN: Did you have any faith in the court procedure,did you feel that you could go to court and complain?

ROLAND PETROS: No, I trusted nobody.  I trust nobody fromthe South African Police or any magistrate, State prosecutor becauseall these people seemed to collude with this "Diwiti"this deceased.  So at that stage I didn't trust anybody.

UNKNOWN: So you are saying that you had not faithin the legal system under the police and it is therefore underthose circumstances that you took the decision to do what youin fact did?