Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, in your testimony you did actually mention Lerm and you mentioned him in connection with harassment which you yourself and your family experienced.  I want to ask you do you have any personal knowledge of Lerm's direct involvement, Lerm personally, in any gross human rights violations.  Where he was either personally present or where he himself was personally involved in human rights violations?

UNKNOWN: Yes, unfortunately these are incidents that, you know, touched someone very badly, but one, I can say the Queen, that is the wife to my brother.  The Queen Siphila Laminie, the daughter to King Soboswa.  In her harassment, torture and bad experiences that she had, Lerm was present.  Two, when my brother, Colin Mahlangu, who was arrested.  Attempts were made by Lerm himself to have Colin necklaced and other relatives of mine.  When they were arrested Lerm was part of that group that arrested them.

RUSSELL ALLY: Prince James, do you actually have personal
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knowledge of this?  I mean you saw this or are you basing this on what was told to you.  I mean that is very important because we have actually questioned Brigadier Lerm on these issues and he denies any such involvement.  So are you basing what you are saying on you actually having been present, having seen this or on what was told to you?

UNKNOWN: Well, the Commissioner there, Wynand Malan, has correctly put it that denying has become a big thing in South Africa, in the old order in actual fact.  Well, I was not directly involved because we were either in jail at the time or have, you know, escaped from the jaws of Lerm's force.  They were outside the borders of this area.  So, I was not personally there.  This is what I was related to or told by those who were affected by that action.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you Prince James.  One last question.  On the Parsons Commission.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, I am sure that you are aware that people have different perceptions as regards the Parsons Commission.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: There are some who actually believe that because the Parsons Commission was set up after you became Chief Minister that it was actually involved in a witch hunt, that it was not objective, that is was there to simply identify perpetrators from one side of the conflict.  Imbokhoto police, people like Lerm, de Jager and so forth.  Do you just want to, briefly, say something to us about you viewed the Parsons Commission?

UNKNOWN: Yes, definitely.  At that time there was this problem of Pretoria not me.  I did not have a problem.  Pretoria had a problem.  It regarded all the homeland
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leaders as their supporters, as their lackeys.  I refused, you know, to become part of them.  I, in actual fact, did all that was in our power to demonstrate to them that they are the oppressors, they brought this misery to our people here and they are the cause of every sufferer in the country here.  So we cannot be seen to be party to them.  That made them, you know, to bring someone who was close to them, like Parsons, to deal with the question of the reason that led, you know, to the unrest in KwaNdebele, to look into the question of the administration and so on.  
 Now, if you look at the information that he was relying on or relying upon was the information that came exactly from the seconded officials who were here as if they were part of the KwaNdebele Civil Service when, in actual fact, they were working for Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Joyce.

MS SEROKE: Prince Mahlangu, we are told that Imbokhoto disbanded and was declared illegal in August 1986.  Would you say the activities of Imbokhoto continued after that disbanishment or whatever?  Did they continue or if they did, in what guise and what happened?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Let me start here.  On the 29th of April 1986 after Jacobs Skosana was killed, the day before, a motion was tabled in Parliament to the effect that Imbokhoto be recognised by the Government as a movement in KwaNdebele and that was passed.  That is why on the 12th of August a motion was raised that it be disbanded because from the look of things it was even, because of its recognition, it was enjoying the support of the Government in terms of money.  It was disbanded and then they turned around, all those Imbokhoto guys were made special constables.  Then
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they operated from that anger as "kits konstabels", but in 
actual fact they were still Imbokhoto members.  Imbokhoto is still going on.

MS SEROKE: My last question. You described, you know, what happened to your people before 1985, 1984.  They were evicted from farms, they did not have places, but would you say during that time, you know, what was the mood other than being evicted in terms of peace between, you know, the tribal leadership and the people and so on?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  One, the idea was, as I have indicated earlier on, that my father kept on saying that we need our land back and our people felt neglected as if they do not have the leadership.  Hence, they stood up themselves to say we need a place of our own, we need to have a place where we shall worship and recognise, pay allegiance, you know, to our King because he was like a King without the nation or the tribe.  So hence they felt that, no, they should come back to this areas.
 On the part of the white farmers, the problem was these people were now saying, guys, you need, you know, to pay us, you need to pay us now.  We have been working for you as slaves for years, you need to pay us.  Now, as a result the Government, seemingly, was giving audience to that and these people did not want, you know, to have these people paid, did not want to share their land and they were also having some cattle on the farm there.  Then the whites did not want that happening.  That is why and then they decided to have them evicted and other things that they must get and feel this repression by other ethnic groups so that they themselves could also, you know, look for their own place where they could say, well, you have got your own place as 
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Pedis, we have got your own place as Ndebeles.  Things like that.  The Cabinet was trying to have it policy promoted.

MS SEROKE: When the KwaNdebele refused independence, when did they begin to aspire for national liberation and independence?

UNKNOWN: Can you?

MS SEROKE: I say when they refused their homeland independence, when did the people start aspiring for the national and liberation and independence?