Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary for us to know that, how they got that?  We are not going to make any finding regarding the firing or setting on fire of the police station.

MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, the evidence of the victim is that when the Police while tortured them they knew they were not involved and they may have had their suspects.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you can just put it to him, but we don't have find out every single detail about the attack on the policemen, we'll never finish this matter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think basically what you are contending is that there was no reasonable basis for effecting an arrest.  Won't you just put it to him as your instructions indicate.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Ramushwana, it is, may I put it to you that it is the position of the victims that at the time you arrested them you had no reasonable grounds or belief or suspicion that they were linked to the bombing of the police station because they were indeed not involved.  Not in any way.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Not all of them Mr Chairman.  We have people who have admitted, some of them under duress indeed but others without any duress and that was the basis for arrest because even after we have arrested some of them the other two confessed and said "Indeed".

MS MTANGA: My following question is, were you ever present or did you ever observe or see besides Dr Farisani's, were you ever present when the other victims were being interrogated beside Dr Farisani, did you see any of those victims being interrogated.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I can't recall very well, but seeing that I use to go from time to time you know go in and peep and see whether everything is okay or maybe call someone there to have a chat with him, it is difficult to say when and how, under what circumstances.  You see why I can remember Dean Farisani is because I knew him before, he was a top clergy in Venda and I did not know the others, but I wanted make sure that he was at home.  So from time to time I went to see whether he was okay.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Ms Mtanga, what are your instruction.  Are your instructions that he was present at any given time when the suspects were interrogated?

MS MTANGA: My instructions are Mr Chairperson, that Mr Ramushwana's office was right next door from the interrogation room and what I want to observe from him is, if he kept going into the room, and he had said, he had given evidence to the effect that he would respond or he would intervene when he heard the screams.  He was only one room away from the interrogation room.  So what I would want to put to him is how many times did he hear those screams and how many times did he intervene.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Oh, several times.

MS MTANGA: Did you intervene in any of the interrogation of the victims that we are dealing with here?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Like I said, in most cases when I went there and I wanted to find out who was screaming what is going on here, nobody would answer, even the victim would not tell.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Really Mr Ramushwana, did you expect the victims who were at the hands and mercy of your underlings to be in a position to give any reasonable answer to that question?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: But I am trying to say exactly what happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But did you expect them to be able to say anything in front of the people who you knew had been condoned to use unconventional methods of extracting information?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: But Mr Chair, I think I am trying to answer the question as it comes to me.  I am not trying to add feelings.  I am trying to answer as ...(indistinct).  Whether I intervened and I am saying 'Yes' I would go there and say "What is going on here?" and then nobody would answer.  And I think I have answered the question.  But now if it comes down to the feelings or my expectations whether I expected the victim to say yes or no, I don't know whether I will be answering the question.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I just ask a direct question?  When you ask that kind of a question, what kind of response were you reasonably expecting from the victims?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Not necessarily the victim alone.  Even the interrogators because one interrogator would say "Oh no, this guy he fell down" - something like that, or he is having hallucinations or something like that.  But then, I would understand obviously why a victim would not answer.  But I don't think whether that is what she wanted me to answer.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You simply asked the question for the sake of asking the question.  You never expected anything tangible to come out of that question.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: You could be right.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana, you walked into a room filled by your police officers, your subordinates were carrying out a interrogation on these people and there was only one person being interrogated there.  Who would have screamed in that situation?  Who would have screamed in that situation under those circumstances, why would you ask a question who was screaming, who would have screamed in that situation?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Well, the Commander would have said 'Okay, so and so is screaming' and then I'll say 'Why is he screaming'.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence you gave methods that were used by the police officers in interrogating suspects and you mentioned that they used their hands, used water.  Can you indicate and explain to this committee how were their hands used and how was the water used?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay, I think this I will have to leave it to the interrogation team, I was not part of the interrogation team.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you know if any methods were used on these particular detainees, if you could explain those, we don't want to hear your knowledge of the various torture methods that aren't relevant to this particular incident.  If you know water was used on one of those persons mentioned in paragraph 15, then you can explain it to us, but I don't think there is any point in us getting a detailed explanation of all the possible forms of torture that there may be in existence.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Mr Chair, thank you, I think, like I said a number of methods were used. Okay, water was poured over a hood, the electric shock from the telephone and then bare hands, or maybe a fist, because if you look at the faces of some people who were swollen, I did not think they could use anything other than the fist or something like that, I don't know, but the interrogation team are in a better position to give you details on that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you, you were the commander, you must remember Mr Ramushwana, you are giving evidences as the commando of the investigating team and to the extent that you are the commander and to the extent that you condoned some of these methods, we would like to know which methods you condoned.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: If I saw them doing it, the problem is I was not there when they did this.  If I was there I would tell you exactly okay, I condoned this and this.  But now I know there are so many methods like where, like I was saying our men were trained by the South African Security Branch and so forth, some of the methods I don't know.  But, that is given to the interrogation team.  I personally cannot tell you, but I know some of them like I said okay, a hood and water, electric shock, maybe booted feet, open hands, fists - but then I wouldn't know what methods they used if I came there because someone screamed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever on the one of the many occasions that you went from your office into the interrogation room, when you heard a scream, did you ever see any electric device attached to the person being interrogated or present in the room that might have led you to believe that this person was now being given the electric shock treatment.