Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

ADV DE JAGER: On stealing the gun, the gun could be traced by the police because the gun had a number.  Weren't you afraid of being traced by the police because you took the gun?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes, I do know that the guns had numbers.  We knew that those weapons were not going to stay with us, they would be taken away.

ADV DE JAGER: Who instructed you to commit the robbery and the killing of Mr Francisco Cato?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: It was Mr Biko.

ADV SANDI: Where did he instruct you, where were you when he told you that you should get involved in this?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: He gave us an instruction when we were at Mr Franciscato's house.  He told us that we were going to take firearms there.  I then looked for any person who was coming.  I then followed them after they entered the house.

ADV SANDI: Before he told you that, where did you think you were going?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: When we were with him, that was not a strange thing because we used to go with him, he used to visit my area.  We'd go with him to town.

ADV SANDI: Had you been involved in a similar operation with him before that day?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No.

ADV SANDI: You mean to say that he had not before then instructed you to do anything similar to what he was telling you to do that day?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No.

ADV SANDI: This was your first operation as a member of APLA?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you get involved in any similar operation after this one?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No.

ADV SANDI: That place where you say you came from before you proceeded to the house of Mr Franciscato, did any discussion take place there between anyone who was there, concerning an attack?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No, we didn't discuss that.

ADV SANDI: What was discussed there, if anything was discussed?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: We didn't discuss anything, we were waiting for the person who sent the message and we didn't know what he wanted.  We couldn't assume what the person was going to say.

ADV SANDI: What were you doing before you got involved in this operation?  Did you carry out any tasks as a member of APLA?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No.

ADV SANDI: You joined APLA in 1991, not so?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: I joined task force in 1991.

ADV SANDI: And between 1991 and the day you got involved in the attack at the house Mr Franciscato, you had not carried out any functions as an APLA member?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No, except for this one there was nothing else I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I just ask one question?
	The money that you referred here to you say was in a later operation, later that afternoon?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And you reported it to your leader, who was he?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: I took it to Mr Tamsanqa Duma who was my commander in the community.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you give the money to him?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: All the money?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: How much was it?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: I didn't count how much it was.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you give him anything else?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No, it was only the money.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you have a weapon?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No, I only had a bayonet.

ADV DE JAGER: At Mr Franciscato's place, and later on in the afternoon, the other robbery?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No, I was not armed.

ADV DE JAGER: How many weapons were used at the later robbery?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: There was a bayonet and a firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: Only one firearm and one bayonet?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes, I had a bayonet.

ADV DE JAGER: I want to know, did other people have - because inasfar as I could see two firearms were used at the other place.

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Mr Veveza was the one who had a firearm.  There was only one firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: Was it only you and Mr Veveza involved there?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Together with Zukile Biko.

ADV DE JAGER: The three of you?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes, the three of us.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, at this stage I'm calling Tamsanqa Duma.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Duma, which language would you like to use?

TAMSANQA DUMA: English.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

TAMSANQA DUMA: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Duma, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before this Committee ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Before you start - Mr Duma, do you realise that the evidence that you may be giving in this matter may implicate you in a criminal matter?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I understand.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you notwithstanding that prepared to give evidence even if this may lead to your conviction later?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Okay.  Can you repeat your question, Sir?

ADV DE JAGER: I only want to make you aware of it that I don't all that you are going to say in this matter but it may be that this may implicate you in the committing of a criminal offence and that it may lead even to your prosecution at a later stage.  Whether you're aware of it and whether you're, notwithstanding that you are prepared to give evidence.

TAMSANQA DUMA: I'm not aware of the prosecution but what can I say is that I am prepared to give evidence as I have given the instructions.

ADV DE JAGER: Alright.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	The affidavit which is in front of you is also before this Committee.  Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Duma, you were here when the applicants were giving evidence.  Now can you in your own words tell the Committee what role you played in this incident regarding the killing of Mr Franciscato and also the taking away of arms, ammunition at his place?

TAMSANQA DUMA: In this incident I was a local commander by the time I gave the instructions to the unit commander to go and repossess arms, of which I told him that: "For the recovery of the arms your enemy could not just hand over the arms without fighting or without resistance. You will go and kill and repossess arms otherwise it will be you and your unit, the people who will die there if you cannot do as I'm telling you".  So I instructed Mabuti Biko as a commander of one of the units which I had at that time at Fort Beaufort, to go and do this mission.

ADV SANDI: Where did you say he must go?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I instructed them to go at Fort Beaufort town at Alice Street.

ADV SANDI: Is that the house of Mr Franciscato?

TAMSANQA DUMA: That's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what your reason was for giving such instructions?

TAMSANQA DUMA: My first reason for that, on my arrival from prison in 1991, I think it was after May because I was arrested for the Terrorism Act, under the Terrorism Act and then I arrived at home at Fort Beaufort.  I got that the PAC structures are not there as well as the PAC membership, it was scattered because of the situation between the PAC and the ANC.  As well as our children were being chased away from the schools and our houses.  	Most of the house were being burnt down as well as the police forces there, they were sympathising with the ANC followers or members.  And then as the first person to arrive there or as the first APLA cadre to arrive at home that year, I've taken some decisions that I'm going to build, re-build the strong party structures including the task forces, especially the task forces for the defence of the party PAC structure as well as the PAC component structures so that they can operate on the ground like any other party without being threatened. 	Also to carry on with the struggle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally, Mr Duma, what you are telling this Committee is that what was done by the applicants  was an order from yourself?

TAMSANQA DUMA: That's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO