Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MR PRIOR: How was the burning of the property that linked the residents of kwaMadala to the Boipatong attack, how did that burning assist the police?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: With respect may you please repeat your question.

MR PRIOR: How did the burning of the property of the people of Boipatong, the TV's, the heaters, the radio's, the clothing, whatever, the destruction of that property, how did that assist the police with their investigation?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It didn't help them.

MR PRIOR: Was the intention to destroy evidence linking the residents of kwaMadala to the Boipatong attack, was that the intention of the burning of the property, instead of handing it over to the police?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't know Sir.

MR PRIOR: Did you as a policeman at that stage, ask anybody why this property was being destroyed?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR PRIOR: And finally, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If the people wanted to destroy these items, they would have destroyed them in Boipatong, there would have been no need for them to bring them the hostel and destroy them in the hostel.  Were you present when these items were destroyed?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find out from the people why are these things being destroyed, or did someone say why these things are being destroyed?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes it was said that is to make sure that the police when they arrived, they can't see these things.  People were talking around the fire.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have one final aspect.  You seem from your reply in respect of the allegation of women being raped, your evidence seems to suggest that you have respect for the dignity of women.  It's seems to be the case.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes, but together with maids and children.

MR PRIOR: I don't understand that part, but be that as it may, just explain to me what - how it differs when elderly women in their 60's, 70's and 80's are killed in a shocking way?  How does that sit easier with you than the rape of a woman, just explain that to the Committee.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Sir, I would say I as an individual or person, rape and murder are not acceptable things.  It doesn't treat me well if when we're in a battle, you fighting, someone is raping other people.  However, if elderly women are proof that should the burning of people by their children, I think they should also suffer the consequences.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

UNKNOWN: I have no questions thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairman ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr - are you going to be fairly, I think we have just ...(inaudible)

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, approximately 10 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: At this stage we'll take the lunch adjournment and come back at 14h20.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR DA SILVA: ...(inaudible) you referred to the aerial photograph, will you please look at Exhibit M1.  Is that the aerial photograph you were referring to?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now I don't know if you understand the photograph properly, but if you look on the left-hand side just above the letter "D" you will see a road starts there, and that road goes across the photograph right to the right-hand side to the letter "M".  Do you see that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes I do see that.

MR DA SILVA: That is Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.  Now if you look at letter "K", that points out a tree, do you see that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.  Now Mr Khanyile's evidence yesterday was that on the way back from Boipatong the group gathered at the tree, then the group crossed at the pedestrian bridge marked "H", and during this process some vehicles that they saw retreated to a Trek Garage which was marked with the letter "C".  Do you understand that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Do you agree with this evidence, is this what happened?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: So in other words when the soldiers saw the group, the retreated to the Trek Garage at point "C"?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now under cross-examination from Mr Berger, you said that you saw the soldiers at point "H", at the pedestrian bridge, is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes it was on the same street where I saw police, or should I say Army vehicles.

MR DA SILVA: What you saw was vehicles, is that correct?  Could you tell if it was police or Army vehicles?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I saw an Army buffalo.

MR DA SILVA: So you saw one Army buffalo.  Now the point that I'm trying to make is that in an answer to Mr Berger's cross-examination you said you saw them at point "H", is that correct, or did you see them retreating to point "C", the Trek Garage?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I saw them on the same route towards the Trek Garage, that is point "C".

MR DA SILVA: Now yesterday you also said Mr Tshabangu, that when the group entered into Boipatong, that the group were walking next to the Serela Combined High School, and that next - or the fence demarcating this school was barricaded with razor wire, do you recall that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Do you recall seeing other portions of Boipatong which had been barricaded with razor wire?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No I do not remember Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Did you get the impression that the razor wire was there to protect the school or was it to protect Boipatong, or can't you say?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I was under the impression that the razor wire was meant to protect Boipatong.

MR DA SILVA: Do you out of your own knowledge know who put up the razor wire to protect Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No Sir.

MR DA SILVA: You also said yesterday that on entering Mosheshwe Street there were obstacles at the entrance of the street.  Could you describe these obstacles?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It was wire and trees.

MR DA SILVA: When you're talking about trees, do you mean tree-stumps?  Tree-stumps were put across the roads, is that right?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: And you said you saw this on several portions in the streets in Boipatong, that tree-trunks were put across the road?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I cannot say for sure that I saw these in all the areas, but it might as well have happened the same way, but I'm not sure.  There were barricades - streets were barricaded.

MR DA SILVA: By whom were these streets barricaded, do you know?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't know the names but I think it may have been the members of the SDU, Self-Defence Units, those are the ones who were patrolling the streets at night.

MR DA SILVA: In other words SDU's and possibly residents of Boipatong, do you agree with that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR BERGER: Chairperson that wasn't what the witness said at all and - well let me just leave it at that, that's not what the witness said.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson I put the question to the witness and I asked him if he agreed with it, and that was his answer, he agreed with that.  If necessary I can put the question again.
	Mr Tshabangu do you know - you said that the SDU's, as far as you are aware, put up these tree-stumps.  Do you know if any of the residents of Boipatong were involved in this?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I said I think it may have been the SDU's.

MR DA SILVA: And would you agree with me that the purpose of these barricades was to stop vehicular traffic from going into Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: While you were suspended at this stage during the attack, you were suspended from the police, did you still have contact with your colleagues that were still in the Police Force?  Did you still speak to members that were actually doing active duty in the Police Force?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes Sir.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know if the police could have free entry into Boipatong, could they come and go like they wanted to?