Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Bosch, you heard the evidence and the questions which were asked regarding these weapons.  At that stage were you issued with a similar weapon?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I only had my official police weapon with me, I didn't have a Baby Browning with me.
"Afterwards we returned to Durban.  Frank McCarter on their way back to Durban told me that the prisoner who was shot was an ANC terrorist who was responsible for a bomb explosion at the business centre at the Natal South Coast during a Xmas holiday.
		I cannot remember the relevant place where the bomb planting took place, Shelley Beach or Amanzimtoti.
		McCarter informed me that the bomb explosion killed members of the public and injured them severely.  I was also informed that the prisoner was arrested after this explosion but that there was no proper criminal case built up against him because of the fact that the evidence was not sufficient.
		The information which was in the possession of the Durban Security Branch was that the prisoner was definitely responsible for the bomb explosion.  
		As such and with this conviction was the instruction of Durban Security Branch was that the prisoner after he was acquitted should be arrested by the black members of the Security Branch and that he must be eliminated.
		I do not know who the deceased person was but I was aware at the municipal park - but whilst we were waiting at the municipal park I was aware of the fact that he was an ANC member because I was told by one of the other members of the Security Branch that that's the person who was in fact an ANC terrorist.
		I tried to find out what the reason was for his detention and what we were supposed to do but I was only told that he was an ANC terrorist."

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Bosch, when you completed your amnesty application you did not know what the identity of the deceased was, and on page 17 of the bundle you refer to the fact that know a docket was opened and that might have contained further information, is that correct, do you confirm that?

I D BOSCH: Yes, I confirm that, Chairperson.

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Bosch, on page 17 could you please continue and tell the Committee what your political objective was, the one you wanted to attain with your actions?
MR BOSCH
"The political objective with the elimination of this person was in order to eliminate an ANC member who was apparently responsible for the planting of a bomb which killed and injured members of the public.  Because this person could not be prosecuted criminally it was necessary for us to take him out of, to stop the threat that he held for the general public and the present government and to get it out of the way.
		The elimination of this person was also part of the Security Branch's struggle against the guerilla warfare which was conducted by the ANC/SACP."

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Bosch, as far as your personal knowledge is concerned before and during this operation, would you also submit this to the Committee please, on page 18.
"Even though I was not completely aware of the situation surrounding his arrest, when he was shot I was well aware of the fact that he was a trained ANC member.
		The person was detained on instruction of the Durban Security Branch and I believed there were sufficient reasons for the Durban Security Branch to arrest this trained ANC member and to detain him.
		Seeing against the background of the Security Branch's battle against the ANC's revolutionary onslaught against the then dispensation, it was not strange to me to detain a person under the instruction of a senior officer of the Security Branch.
		Colonel Andy Taylor was also present during this detention of the deceased in the park in the suburb in the south of Durban.
		After McCarter informed me what the situations were and why the person had to be eliminated, I believed that it was necessary that he had to be eliminated because he was responsible for the planting of a bomb which killed and injured innocent members of the public."

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Bosch, you've already testified that you gained no financial, you didn't get any financial gain because of your actions, is that correct?

I D BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.

MR ROUSSOUW: And you also mention that the operation was executed and the people who were there and who took responsibility for all of this was McCarter and Taylor, is that correct?

I D BOSCH: That is correct.

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Bosch, can I just then take you to page 20 of the statement.  Do you confirm that that is your handwriting, or your signature rather?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR ROUSSOUW: And you also ask the Committee to take notice that because of the long time which has passed you do have certain problems to recollect some of the specifics concerning this incident?

I D BOSCH: That is correct.

MR ROUSSOUW: You also mention that since the incident you've deliberately tried to forget about it and to ...(end of tape)
	...(inaudible) Mr McCater, that he would have been the person that would have explained to you the purpose of this operation.  If you think back, can you remember if he actually did that and if so, when?

I D BOSCH: Chairman, I want to try to remember but I can't, it could have been in the morning whilst we were sitting in the park, he could have explain to my whilst we were driving back in the evening but I really cannot remember.

MR MALAN: Can you just clarify that please?  Did you not say in your evidence-in-chief that you sat there the whole day and you didn't know what was going on and you were only informed by McCarter after you completed this operation?

I D BOSCH: That is correct Chairperson, I didn't know exactly what was going on.  Because I did not work in Durban I did not have the background of this person, only later did they tell me how he fitted into this picture and what was happening.

MR MALAN: Did they tell you this before he was shot or afterwards?

I D BOSCH: No, I think it was on the way back.

MR MALAN: But you said in your evidence-in-chief that it was only after you went back that he told you.

I D BOSCH: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And now I hear you saying that he could have told you this in the morning while you were sitting in the park but you're not sure when.

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I'm trying to remember but I cannot, I wish I could because it would make it easier for me if I could remember but I cannot.

MR MALAN: But if it was the case that he told you in the morning then it means that you knew that before he was shot why he was going to be shot.

I D BOSCH: That's possible.

MR MALAN: So why do you say under oath that he did not know that he was going to be shot?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I'm trying to remember, I cannot.

MR MALAN: So what value should be attach to your statement then?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I can just say what I remember at the point when I made the statement.  Now today I can remember more things but when I made the statement I really could not remember.

MR MALAN: But you're making statements about things you cannot remember.  You say now you cannot remember and yet you make a statement about it.
	Mr Roussouw, maybe you should lead us here.  I do not know what we should consider to be his evidence and what not his evidence.

MR ROUSSOUW: Maybe I should clear that up with questioning.
	Mr Bosch, as far as the motivation is concerned and the circumstances surrounding the person's arrest and the things which then happened, is it your recollection that when you were informed about those details and the background concerning all of this, was it given to you by McCarter after the man was shot?  In other words the motivation for the murder.

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson, that is the way I remember it.