Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   You see it's a specific area behind a shop, behind a shop of Mr Mbongwe, and the house was behind the shop.  There's a house next to the shop and there's some houses behind the shop.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I just ask you, were they supposed to - because you made reference to a possibly lit house during the night.  Were they supposed to attack any house that could have been lit at that time of the night?

WITNESS:   No, Sir.  No, that wasn't the - that's not what I said to them, that they must attack any house.  I mean it was a - it's difficult for me to explain it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, I understand your answer.  You've said no.  I understand your answer.  Can I ask you the next question then?  You see, when your counsel led you reference - extensive reference I must say - was made to documentation relating to the recruitment of special constables.  Now, I don't want to go through every page with you, but I want to put to you is that from these various pages that were referred to, as also the statement of Mr Adriaan Vlok, and in particular Brigadier Mellet, when he said that the special constables were not supposed to take sides, the

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /overall

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: overall impression I get is that special constables - the

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: official policy was that special constables should be used within the terms of the law, and not to commit crimes.

WITNESS:   There is a later reference to the effect that they must not be aligned with any radical organisation in terms of the AWB or in terms of the UDF, but that they can - that they can take sides like with Inkatha.  That was maybe in theory, but in practice what happened is that the Inkatha - these special constables were all recruited out of Inkatha, out of the community as Inkatha members.  These special constables were actually Inkatha card holders, the ones involved in this particular attack.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I appreciate that, but those were selected by yourself, this particular four.

WITNESS:   No, Sir.  What happened is that they were supplied by the Riot Unit.  In other words they were selected within the ranks of the Riot Unit themselves.  I was not a member of the Riot Unit at the time by then.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Mitchell, you are not suggesting that every special constable in Natal was a member of the IFP, are you?  You are not suggesting that?

WITNESS:   I am not - I can't answer you on that and say that every one of them, no, Sir, but I would hazard a guess that a large majority - a large group of them were.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now, what I want to point out to you is that if you look at page 242, and this is the point I am trying to make to you - if, for example, you look at page 249, I am sorry.  Page 249, there's a sub paragraph 2 there to which your counsel referred you.  It says that the special constables should be drafted into or onto the existing South African Police, South African Defence Force and

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /Municipal

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Municipal Police Force.  Am I right?

WITNESS:   No, Sir,

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: actually what they mean here is this question raised, where should they be attached to?  Should they be a - to which particular of the armed forces should they become an auxiliary force to, or should they be a force on their own.  So eventually the decision was taken that they would then be attached to the South African Police.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, what I am saying to you is that that is an indication that they were to be used in a lawful manner.

WITNESS:   Sir, I think the overt policy and consideration wasn't that there was anything cynical about it.  It came about eventually in practice that the things went wrong.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But you don't know whether the idea of using the constables that night in the manner in which they were used originated from Captain Terblanche or whether it originated from authorities higher than himself.

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.  That's why I say we're at an extreme disadvantage with the death of Captain Terblanche, because he would have been the one that would have been able to assist me in explaining further up.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: From the documents that we have been referred to - perhaps your counsel will deal with this in argument - I must just put this to you.  From all these documents that we have been referred to in putting the lectures and the like I find no justification - no official justification for the use of the special constables in the manner in which you did that night.

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.  I won't argue with you on that point.  I just - I think the idea was to describe my frame of mind.  No, not only my frame of mind, but the frame of mind of the commanding officer of the Riot Unit, and the set up within the country and what was

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /going on

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: going on at the time, and how it was going on.  I also found it very difficult thinking back to 1988.  It's a long time ago, and I think a lot of people have forgotten really how bad it was in the country at the time, the experiences.  I won't say everybody, but I think a large majority of people have forgotten what it was like, and to see the despair and the difficulties that the Security Forces were having to control the situation that stupid mistakes like this were made, yes.   There were stupid, stupid mistakes made by us.   And I ... (intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Mitchell, that might have been so, but let me tell you that this question - I put this question to you because in your evidence you said that you saw this operation as falling within the strategy set out in the documents, and ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 4)

WITNESS:   (Incomplete) ... the document on the - especially the one on the use of forces within the "plateland gebiede," or in the rural areas, that particular "lesing" or "handluiding" - lectures.  It reveals the tone and the understanding of hitting hard and fighting fire with fire, and that was my understanding.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, I have read it, but I understand it to say that you must hit very hard, but within the parameters of the law.

WITNESS:   Sir, I am not trying to justify what I did.  I am trying - at all.  I think I am trying to maybe explain my frame of mind, and that's what I've tried to do throughout this document, is not to have a court case all over again and to say that I am innocent, but just to describe the role played by other people within the case.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Something else.  Professor Grazer, that is the gentleman who submitted a report in your favour - I think

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /it was

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: it was him.  In that report you are being described as somebody who was very ambitious.

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you agree with that assessment of yourself?

WITNESS:  Yes, I do, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Ambitious in what respect?  In terms of wanting to achieve higher positions in the police force?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, that is correct, and to better myself.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Would that suggest that you would have done anything in order to achieve that?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, it does.  It is sad to say it now, and it's very sad for me to look back on my life and to see how stupid I was to let my ambition get in my way.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You would do anything, including the killing of people?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, it eventually did revolve to that.  It revolved to us becoming murderers and arsonists.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well then, wasn't this - weren't these crimes committed precisely because of that, precisely because at all costs you wanted to enhance your position in the police force?