Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is a contradiction but what Ginam said is true.  He was trying to explain	that there was not need for us to monitor him and report to the Commander, we just had to kill him.  But knowing him I want to believe that Ginam was very fond of Sergeant Khumalo.
	He raised that, not because it was a suggestion or Ginam's suggestion, that would not be a final decision.  If for example the IFP leadership said they don't care, he just had to be killed, we would do exactly that, we would not even monitor him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman ....[intervention]

ADV MOTATA: Before you proceed Mr Mpshe, I would draw your attention to the record, page 116, paragraph 85 where it said that - I will just get the line for you, it would be the 6th line
"It was then resolved that we must tail after him in order to establish information about his affiliation with the ANC"
What I'm saying to you is that if you want to further canvass that point, but it would appear from the record that Mr Ginam Mkhize also mentioned a fact of that nature.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, I'm indebted to the Committee Member on that aspect.
	Mr Chairman, this concludes the questions from the Khumalo family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, as I had indicated before the lunch adjournment about the other victim Mr Bongani Msome, I had a short talk with him during the lunch adjournment and the restriction will be to what shall have been said by the current applicant and he's said he's aware thereof, he will just put questions about what he has said about him.  If the Committee permits, may he be called to the stand?  He is available, he's sitting right in front.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is Msome present?  Mr Msome can you come forward please?  I wonder if someone could make a microphone available for Mr Msome?  Mr Msome, what are your full names please?

MR MSOME: My name is Bongani Msome.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Msome, it's been indicated you have some questions to ask of the witness, is that correct?

MR MSOME: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you proceed please.

MR MSOME: Thank you very much Chairperson for granting me this opportunity.
	I would like to ask as to what is it that in the testimony of the people who are applying for amnesty,
when they are asked questions or when they are giving examples, especially examples that they are giving here seem not to be examples taken from their affidavits.  I am saying this because in what Mr Mkhize said and that which has been said by Mr Romeo Mbambo, it is clear that the one person that they wanted very strongly here was myself.  
	Mr Ginam also said when he was asked questions, there was nothing that they did not do to try and get hold of me so as to kill me.  They only fell short of bewitching me.  I therefore want to ask as to why other similarly important incidents do not appear in their statements?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question Mr Mbambo?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you prepared to answer, can you answer it?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.
	At the time of writing these statements we wrote them at the ITU.  The ITU is this unit that was investigating the hit squad activities but they were investigating for the Court, not for the TRC purposes.  We mentioned a number of things because we indicated to them that if we were speaking about only one incident there are some things that we might forget.  
	It would be best that we should start from the beginning and explain everything and they would only take what they required and write it down and leave out those incidents which they felt were not important in building up the case.  And therefore they were very much concerned about the conspiracy and the people who were involved in the conspiracy during that particular incident.  
	And therefore many things such as that, yourself for example we tried very much to kill you but your incident was left out because we did not shoot you and we did not kill you.  They were very much concerned about the cases that they wanted to investigate.  Therefore I would say the ITU is the one to blame here.

MR MSOME: Mr Chairman, I do understand the question by I would wish that perhaps Mr Mbambo should perhaps state here as in yes or no as to whether the statements that they are using here for amnesty, do you regard them as complete or not.

MR MBAMBO: We are asking amnesty for incidents where we attacked.  This information is complete except for example if it happened that we didn't remember certain things.  Things that happened such as discussions, meetings, these do not appear in the affidavit, these are things that pertained to the political situation.  For example, the plot to kill you does not appear here, that is why this was left out even though we had informed the Court about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msome, perhaps I can inform you that at the commencement of these proceedings when we were still sitting in Durban, this point about precisely what  the applicants are applying for was raised by the Committee and the legal representatives are working on bringing out a table of incidents for which they are actually applying for amnesty.  Obviously we as a Committee can't grant or refuse amnesty in respect of an incident which hasn't been applied for because in their application forms they've merely said
"Refer to affidavit"
for what they're applying for amnesty for.  But it's very difficult because if one takes a look at a 130 page affidavit there's many sorts of incidents and we've for it to be tabulated so that's in the process of being done.

MR MSOME: Mr Chairperson, thank you.  But I am saying this because they had repeated on several occasions that they were involved in a number of attempts to try and kill me.  I lost everything.  My house was burnt down and I don't even know the people who burnt my house and as to who sent them.  My car was also burnt and I don't know who instructed these people to do so.  My life was just shattered.  I would wish therefore that they explain to the community that in their wish and attempts to kill me, what exactly it is that they did to try and kill me.

MR MBAMBO: Firstly, we knew that Mr Bongani Msome stayed in Gwelezane.  There is a house in Gwelezane B Section where Mr M R Mkhize who was in charge of the IFP office, used to stay.  We met there one day, myself and Zwele Dlamini as well as Israel Hlongwane and he showed us where Mr Bongani Msome stayed.  We went to look for you there but we did not find you and on a second occasion we got an information to the effect that you were not residing in Port Dunford.
	It was alleged that you had a girlfriend there with whom you were staying and we went there as well to look for you and we could not find you.  We also went and parked at the Murder and Robbery Unit offices at Umpangeni and we waited for your Skyline because we knew that you had a green Skyline.  
	The offices of the Murder and Robbery Unit are closer to the ANC unit at Empangeni.  We saw your Skyline and we also saw ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] waited for these two vehicles, hoping that you would leave and we would follow you thereafter and kill you on the road.
	We waited there until it was dusk and we waited there until dusk and you had not left the office.  I still remember very well that Ginam prayed asking you from your ancestors ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you keep quiet please.  Could they repeat?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Ginam had to pray to ask for ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I missed that.  I wonder if the interpreter could repeat what was said because we couldn't hear because of the reaction.