Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, we didn't distance ourselves from Mr Derby-Lewis, on the contrary at our first conference or congress which took place after this incident, we established a fund to support Mr Clive Derby-Lewis as far as his representation was concerned and the Party supported him throughout.
	And perhaps Chairperson, I should mention now how the Conservative Party feel about this matter and I think I must take you to the submission of the ANC made to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission:  
"African National Congress Statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission"
And there on page 62, an incident is described which I think is similar to the situation of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis and that is the case of Mr Andrew Zondo.  I'm not going to read out the whole story, I'll just tell you very briefly - you are probably quite familiar with this case.
	Mr Zondo was had been trained in Angola and he came to Natal to plant bombs and to incite terror and Amanzimtoti he learnt that there'd been a raid in Lesotho and that people had died.  He went to a restaurant, bought a paper, he saw the photographs of the people, he was very worked up about it and he decided he was going to do something.  
	He went to the police station and he realised that he couldn't actually tackle the police station all by himself, so he then went and he thought about it and he decided to plant a bomb in a restaurant.  On the Monday he went and planted the bomb and if I remember correctly, nine people died and 40 were injured.
	Afterwards, they asked Mr Oliver Tambo what his view was on this matter and Mr Tambo said: 
"Massacres have been perpetrated against civilians - Mamelodi - a massacre, Utenhage - a massacre, Botswana - a massacre, Queenstown - a massacre.  Certainly we are beginning to see South Africans of all races burying their loved ones who have died in the South African situation, the whole of South Africa is beginning to bleed.
	If I had been approached by an ANC unit and asked whether they should go and plant a bomb at the supermarket, I would have said: "of course not" but when our units are faced with what is happening all around them, it is understandable that some of them should say: "Well I may have to face being disciplined but I'm going to do this"
	Now Sir, in exactly the same way the Conservative Party viewed the act of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, we realised that the country was in a situation of murder and mayhem.  Political murders in 1993 were higher than in any other period before that and the people had been incited.  
	Mr Hani had said that Whites should be maimed, members of Parliament should be killed, an army should be established and people died, there were necklace murders.  Leaders in Kwa Zulu Natal were killed and we realised that at some or other point the focus would be on the Afrikaners and we had to plan to protect ourselves against attacks such as these.  
	We realised that a climate had been created in South Africa and there was a situation of high tension.  And we realised that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis had subjectively thought that he was acting in the cause of the Conservative Party and for the cause of the Afrikaner people and for that we had sympathy and that is why we supported him right from the outset because we accepted that he was acting on behalf of our cause.

MR PRINSLOO: Now Doctor, just to return to another aspect, after Mr Derby-Lewis's arrest and whilst he was being detained in terms of Section 29, were any questions asked in Parliament regarding his detention, by yourself or other members of your Party as far as you are aware?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: If I can recall correctly, I think in a speech one day I asked the Minister why Mr Derby-Lewis was being detained because there were reports which said that he'd been arrested, other reports said he'd only been kept for questioning and other reports said that he was being detained in terms of Section 29 and I wanted to know what the real position was in respect of Mr Derby-Lewis.
	And we also wanted to know whether the statements being made amongst others by Mrs Winnie Mandela,  that there was a faction - it was a faction of the ANC - it appeared in a London newspaper, she said that an ANC faction had been involved in the murder of Mr Hani and we wanted to know whether this was being investigated.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, did you have certainty in your own mind or in the Conservative Party, that whilst Mr Derby-Lewis was being detained in terms of Sections 29, how did you feel about his involvement?  Was it simply based on speculation and reports in the media?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Evidence was also referred to, which indicated that the CP had distanced itself from murder and didn't condone murder.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, of course not, the Conservative Party would not - no Party, no person can say that they condone murder but we can also understand that if somebody acts in desperation and in a situation of extreme tension where people are being killed all around you and where a person's own life is being threatened, in those circumstances we can understand if a person then takes action. We can understand why it happens although we don't approve of it but it is so that we realised that he had done it for our cause.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Doctor, what was the climate existing at the time in the country - especially in right-wing circles, in respect of violence or non-violence and take-over?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Well, we realised we were living in a violent society and our point of departure was that we had to plan so that - if we could avoid it, that we would not be part of the new South Africa and we realised that that would lead to action against us, violent action against us and we realised that we had to prepare ourselves for that.
	We also realised that that would be a situation where we would not be the aggressors, we never planned to be the aggressors but that we would have to act in a defensive capacity and that we also would have been in a far better moral position. That the defence force and the people who would be used against us, that they wouldn't act with the same dedication and enthusiasm against us, as would be the case if we were the aggressors.   And that is why we planned throughout, to take up a defensive position so that if we were attacked, that we would then - could have the right to defend ourselves for our liberty.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chris Hani's death, did that in any way contribute - could it contribute to the objectives and the cause of the SACP or rather the CP?  Mr Hani was killed by Mr Derby-Lewis and Walus, did it serve any purpose or could it serve any purpose?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That is a subjective question, it's the applicant's subjective judgement which is in issue here and I think that is what the Commission must actually look at but I would say that it could be argued that it could serve the cause because Mr Hani ...[End of tape 2B, day 6 - no follow-on sound] party or organisation, if he falls away, then that organisation is destabilised for some time and can't continue with the same commitment as before.  It's absolutely logical that one can argue along those lines that it served our cause.

MR PRINSLOO: If I could put it this way - no, I withdraw the question.  Mr Koos Botha, was he known to you?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, Mr Koos Botha was a CP member for Wonderboom.

MR PRINSLOO: In what capacity did he serve in the CP?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: He was an MP.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it so that Mr Botha was prosecuted on one particular occasion?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Or he was about to be prosecuted?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And he received amnesty for the planting of a bomb at Hillview School?