Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-01-17

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to start?  This is a resumption of a hearing which commenced in August and had to be adjourned to enable Mr Webster to investigate and possibly call a witness.  Mr Webster?

MR WEBSTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee.  The witness that we intended calling was interviewed by the person investigating in this matter, an affidavit was obtained from that person but have been informed, Mr Chairman, that the witness is out in Cape Town, the subpoena could not be served on him and accordingly he is not present here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: In the circumstances I am unable to call the witness and I do not believe that it would be in the interests of the hearings that we adjourn once again to look for this witness, particularly because the information which I now have is contained in an affidavit, which would not take us particularly far in investigating the aspects which I'd hoped to cover with this witness.
	That leaves me, Mr Chairman, with the relatives of the deceased.  There will be one representative from each family, naturally they were not at the scene and they do not have facts which are pertinently relevant to this issues that you would have to decide on, Mr Chairman, but I'd ask for the indulgence of the Committee to call these members of the family so that they could also have their say.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR WEBSTER: I will call Thandi Mamela.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, while the witness is on her way to the witness stand, may I ask Mr Chairman, whether you will allot an exhibit number to the affidavit to which my learned friend has referred, that is the affidavit of Anthony Joseph Breytenbach and had been handed to you at the last hearing.   And the next exhibit number, if I'm not mistaken Chairperson, would be J.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the affidavit of Anthony Joseph Breytenbach will be handed in and will appear as Exhibit J on the record.  Thank you for drawing my attention to that.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand.

MS MAMELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, be seated.

MR WEBSTER: Ms Mamela, is it correct that you are the mother of Brian Mamela?

MS MAMELA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: And he is one of the four young men who were killed at, what I'd call for convenience, the Quarry Road incident.

MS MAMELA: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was he at the time of his death?

MS MAMELA: 21 years.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WEBSTER: As far as you are aware - sorry, before I get there to that question, at the time that he was shot and killed, do you know what he was doing in the country?

MS MAMELA: I am aware and still aware that he was a member of the MK.

MR WEBSTER: And do you bear any knowledge as to the incident when he was shot and killed?

MS MAMELA: I got the report immediately when it was splashed on the TV.

MR WEBSTER: You have indicated to me that you wish to say something regarding the death of your son.

MS MAMELA: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Please proceed.

MS MAMELA: It is with most remorse that young people were mowed down by some people who were eager to have satisfaction of some subversive ways.  The country was at war, that is acceptable, but the evidence that was actually tabled here in the presence of the people, was not satisfactory.
	The people who actually are applying for amnesty, have not told the truth, they've been very evasive because they don't want to give in-depth information to the bereaved families.  They actually showed very little remorse besides the lies they told, very insensitive and quite a lot of arrogance was labelled at us.  Even when the representative of the families was trying to draw attention to them, they were just not bothered.  That alone proves to me that there was no way they wanted the four people to be taken to court and tried, but were eager to kill.  The lives of those people meant nothing to them.
	Another thing, it's a pity because one of the people I could have loved to query certain things, Andy Taylor, died.  It's a pity he died before he could testify here.  I was one of his top customers, he abused me.  But the worst thing was the brutality he meted out to my kids and my members of the family when my son had been killed.
	I'm sorry to say this, I was also disappointed with the way the defence team carried on.  We've lost lives here, I've lost my dear son and just because people don't want to come up with the truth, and we know very well that a helicopter was on the scene on that day.  Even these guys who have come here and testified, asking us to forgive them, the whole thing became a sham because they're not prepared to talk the truth.
	And as for Botha, he forgets one thing, death is imminent to anybody, he can't guarantee how he is going to die, he might have just killed another black person and to him that is nothing.  And as a black woman who's been involved in the whole brutality that was carried on during the years of the apartheid, I really feel bitter.
	I'm left with a child who wants to know the truth, who'll never know the truth because the life of a black person has no worth in the hands of the people who killed my son.

MR WEBSTER: That will be all, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WEBSTER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	How did you come to posses the information that a helicopter was used on the occasion when your son was killed?

MS MAMELA: This happened within the residential area mostly occupied by the Indian group and the person who actually witnessed the whole thing had to leave the country because of the harassment.  That's the person who came home and reported.
	Can I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MS MAMELA: The post-mortem report puts a very clear picture of the weapons that were used in killing my son.  His death was caused by not 9mm or revolvers and he was shot from the top.  Even though Wasserman admitted that he was involved in shooting Thabani, it wasn't clear and the injuries were not caused by that.  If any of those bullets that Wasserman and his crew used, they could have just been used to kill a dead body that had been killed from the top.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel, any questions to put to this witness?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to put to the witness?

MS THABETHE: No, Mr Chairman, I don't.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Did the deceased have any children?

MS MAMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How old is this child?

MS MAMELA: The child is going to grade nine now.

CHAIRPERSON: How old is he?

MS MAMELA: She.

CHAIRPERSON: She, I'm sorry.

MS MAMELA: She's just turned 15.

CHAIRPERSON: Does she live with you?

MS MAMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How is she being supported and maintained?

MS MAMELA: By the meagre salary I'm earning.

CHAIRPERSON: By the?

MS MAMELA: The meagre salary I'm earning.

CHAIRPERSON: What work do you do?

MS MAMELA: Development Facilitator.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you are excused.

MS MAMELA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman, I'd like to call Flora Mgobhozi.

MR LAX: Mr Webster, would you just repeat the surname for us please.

MR WEBSTER: Mgobhozi, M-g-o-b-h-o-z-i.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR WEBSTER: I requested earlier on, Mr Chairman, that we be assisted with an interpreter from Zulu to English.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.  Mrs Mgobhozi, will you please stand.

FLORA MGOBHOZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Yes, please proceed.

MR WEBSTER: Mrs Mgobhozi, are you related to any of the four young gentlemen who were shot and killed at the Quarry Road incident?

FLORA MGOBHOZI: I am related to Luvuyo, he is my son.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that, I'm sorry.

FLORA MGOBHOZI: I am related to Luvuyo, he is my son.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was he when he died?

FLORA MGOBHOZI: 21 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.