Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

CHAIRPERSON: Explore what when - you want to find out whether he was watching the proceedings from the police vehicle?

MR LOWIES: I would like to know how it happened that he said "when he was here", because that was what bothered us yesterday.  How it could be said that he was here if he didn't attend the meetings, and now we know something new, which we didn't know yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: No.  When he came to attend these hearings, when he began to attend these hearings he was not sitting in the hall, he was sitting in another area where he was watching, I gather, the proceedings on a TV monitor ...  That is what he was referring to.  That is when he saw them.

MR LOWIES: That's what he said at one stage, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: But he did also say when he was here last year he heard this.  And I thought - sorry, maybe I misunderstand you, may I just get ...
	When we talk about here, we're talking Iscor Club where we are sitting today?

MR LAX: No we're talking - they're talking about him arriving on the last day of the hearing at the Sebokeng College, not here.  I beg your pardon, I'm getting just as confused as you.

MR LOWIES: If that is the case, Chairman, his evidence is clear that he heard "here", and that's what ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Put the question.

MR LOWIES: ... and that's what concerns me.
	Mr Nosenga, when you gave evidence yesterday you were cross-examined about this quite a lot and one of the answers that you gave was; when you were here, referring to this place, you heard that there was a denial that the police were involved in the Boipatong massacre.  Do you agree with this?

CHAIRPERSON: In fairness to him also mention to him that he also said that when he was watching television in prison he saw the hearing and heard that the people were not telling the truth, that he referred to the snake incident.

MR LOWIES: Chair, I don't think it would be fair to say that because that would be wrong.  The way I have it is, the only thing that he heard in prison ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well I am saying to you, also indicate that to him as well.

MR LOWIES: I will do that.
	Mr Nosenga, let's just hear this.  Did you hear in prison, when Mthembu gave evidence, that there was a denial of police complicity?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I heard him when I was in prison.  I was watching television whilst in prison.

MR LOWIES: But the only aspect that was on TV was that he said
"a snake gives birth to a snake"
He did not talk about police complicity on TV.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that, Sir, yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm puzzled now.  Are you putting it as a fact to this witness that the only footage that was shown on TV was that incident where he, the only incident that was shown on TV, was that relating to the snake and nothing else?

MR LOWIES: I'm putting to him that on that footage there was nothing said about the absence of police complicity.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a fact?

MR LOWIES: Those are my instructions.  But let's hear what he says.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean ...
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: ... it isn't a fact, because if it is a fact we can establish that by getting the SABC ...(intervention)

MR LOWIES: I will rephrase the question.  I follow.

CHAIRPERSON: ... to provide us with that.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, Chair, I follow.  I will rephrase.
	Mr Nosenga, did you also hear when the evidence of Victor was on TV, that there was an absence of police complicity, that that was denied that the police were present in other words?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I am saying, I heard him saying
"a snake gives birth to another snake"
And these were - Sir, I said Victor said, Victor kills a snake and if a snake gives birth to another snake he will kill the snakes.  And he was also asked, he continued to say:
"When Shaka went out on a battle he would come back with a loot like live cattle etc"

MR LOWIES: Yes, but answer the question.  The question is, did you hear that he denied police complicity on TV, yes or no?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said - I am saying there were others who denied the complicity of the police, but I specifically heard Victor Mthembu when he spoke about the snake.

MR LOWIES: So you did not hear Victor speak about the absence or the presence of policemen in the attack, yes or no? - on TV, nowhere else.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying, during the news on SABC 1 you don't get the whole coverage, you just get pieces of information.  He spoke about being a Zulu and he also gave an anecdote on the battles that Shaka got engaged in, where he brought home live livestock after the battle.

MR LOWIES: Yes, and therefore nothing was said by him regarding the police, whether they were there or not.  That's a fact, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I have already indicated my position, I don't know what else to say.  I don't know what to say now.

MR LOWIES: The answer is a simple yes or no.  Did Victor speak about police complicity? - nothing else.  Yes, he did, no, he didn't.  That is the question. - on TV.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I cannot answer that question because I cannot say whether he spoke about the police or not, but yes, there are people who came forward seeking amnesty, people who spoke about the complicity of the police.

MR LOWIES: Now once we know that you can't say whether he said that, your knowledge is therefore not the following, and that is Victor did mention the absence of police complicity, on TV, because you do not know.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Now you have to explain what you said yesterday, because you said you heard here that they were lying when they said the police were not involved.  Why did you say that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said some of them said the police were not involved.  I don't know what you're trying to say.  I think you're trying to say I'm lying.  I was only watching this on television.

MR LOWIES: No, listen to the question.  We're finished with TV now.  It's a simple question.  And you repeated this, you said it at least four times, and that is that you heard here that they were lying about police complicity.  What did you mean by that?  When did you hear this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was not in this hall, I was in another room, not in this hall.  I was in another room where I was watching the proceedings on a monitor.

MR LOWIES: But it was here?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LOWIES: There's no interpretation.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Not in this present venue, in another room on the premises where I was watching the proceedings on a monitor.

MR LOWIES: I see.  And you went further, when questioned on Monday by the Chairman, to state that that prompted you to bring your application for amnesty.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am saying I was affected.  I am saying I was affected.  I was involved actually in the Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: Yes, that you also said, but forget about that, we're now dealing with your motivation.  You specifically said, yesterday also, but especially on Monday, that when you heard these lies that made you decide to bring your application, the lies pertaining to the police who were present.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I am saying I was involved.  I heard that the people were not telling the truth before the Commission.  You see the people of Boipatong lost their children and people died, that's what I said.  That's the reason why I came to the TRC to seek amnesty, to say what I know.

MR LOWIES: And also because they were lying when they denied complicity?  That's the question, still the question.