Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: I don't know whether I reported every detail, but I gave him the overview of what took place and that would be everything, that would be the overview.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you inform him when you did report back to him, that you killed a person?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: And what was his response?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: I think he congratulated me, we did what we were supposed to do.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt, do you have any re-examination?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, thank you Chair.  On the same point of Commanders, for this particular operation, Mr De Kock was your Commander?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And he gave you instruction as to what to do
once you got to Swaziland?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct, he and Warrant Officer Pienaar assisted with the instructions.

ADV GCABASHE: You were physically there when he gave the instruction?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he explain who the persons were who he was expecting you to encounter on the other side, in terms of their status?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: What did he say?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: He said that these were MK members from Swaziland, who were busy infiltrating other members into the Republic.

ADV GCABASHE: And the impression that you were left with was that they were possibly senior to the people who were coming in?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is possible.

ADV GCABASHE: You see, he says in his evidence, if I have recorded it correctly, that the instruction to you was to eliminate these people, I actually looked for the spot.  What I have here is he says "I agreed to send C1 members in to kill Commanders", and he mentioned Ndaba who was one of the more senior people there and "anyone with him, they were to be killed."  That was his instruction to you, yes?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Chairperson, if I recalled it as clearly as that, I would have said that, but I know that there was a question of arrest because it would make sense.  We worked with it, we worked with information.

ADV GCABASHE: You see, the reason it wouldn't make sense was because the more junior people who were killed by the same group where Mr De Kock was, who were killed, deliberately killed, eliminated, that was the plan.  So it makes sense for those people to be killed as he says, and their superiors to be killed.  So you eliminate and you eliminate, otherwise you arrest and you arrest, or do I not understand how the mindset and the workings of the Security Branch was at the time?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: With respect, I don't think you understand it completely, the senior members would have been able to convey much more information if we could bring them back, but the idea was to kill them.   However, the order was dual in nature, if we could arrest them, we would and if we were going to place the other operation in jeopardy, then we would also arrest, but there wasn't any chance for arrest because it wouldn't have been viable for the operation.

ADV GCABASHE: Of course my understanding is in the context of what Mr De Kock has already told us, that the instruction was to kill?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: We killed, yes, and we were there to kill.   The instruction was to kill, but with me, there was always the idea or that I understood the instruction as such that  arrest was a possibility, if it was possible to execute an arrest.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but this is where my difficulty is, you didn't get that from him.  He is the Commander, you do as he tells you to do, because he has a reason for instructing you to do particular things in a particular way?  He gives you an instruction and you think otherwise and you do things differently, is that what you say?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: It may be so.

ADV GCABASHE: Whereas at the end of the day, you did exactly as he had told you, you killed?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: I still don't see where the arrest fits in.  It is not the instruction, it is not what happened, where does the arrest fit in?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is how I understood it, I don't know how to answer that.   To me the arrest, according to my opinion, the arrest was mentioned if there was a possibility to arrest, then we had to do so, but the information that we had and if it would jeopardise the operation, if it would jeopardise the operation and they were not far enough, then we had to shoot, we would not have shot.  We would try and arrest then.   I know it sounds complicated, but that is how I understood it.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Just for the record, you speak of an arrest, but there was no arrest, executing an arrest in Swaziland?  That is an abduction, a kidnapping?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is true it is abduction in the true sense of the word.

MR MALAN: And you would have only done so if the opportunity was there on a platter because there was very little chance of catching or abducting people who came across the border with weapons?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So it could not have been a primary objective or have been an important consideration?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No, it was a small point thereof, but it was a point.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you picked up the Makarov and then gave it to Mr Ras?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No, I did not pick it up, I don't know who picked it up.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it must have been Mr Van Dyk.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: I just know that the Makarov was with the C1 people, but I did not pick it up or deal with it.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you armed with?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: An R1 rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: And your colleagues?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they have automatic rifles or handguns?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No, they had automatic rifles if I am correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising out of questions put by members of the panel?

MS VAN DER WALT: Just a single aspect.

MR MOERANE: Maybe I should go first so that my learned friend has a chance of re-examining.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sorry, I did not see.

MR MOERANE: This question of obtaining information as a result of arrests, that was in particular Warrant Officer Pienaar's field, not so, he is the person who gathered information, he is the person who ran sources, not so?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: It was also mine, I was second in command from the establishment of the Branch.

MR MOERANE: I see.  You were second in command?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Did you also run sources?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: In Swaziland?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes, in Swaziland.

MR MOERANE: Mr Theron also ran sources?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Now if your superior Warrant Officer Pienaar says go over and kill the person, he says nothing about arresting, doesn't it imply to you that he does not need that particular person as a source of information?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: No, you always need all information, all information that is available.  We were an Information Branch, that was the primary objective, to obtain information.

MR MOERANE: Well, look at the first incident, we have been told that the intention was to kill those people, not to arrest them.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, I have heard it, I did not know of the intent there.