Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-08

MR BLACK: Because at that stage CODESA had already commenced, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: And looking back, did anyone at any stage come to
you and say listen this has been effective, it has had some effect on the negotiations?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: No Mr Chairman, nobody came to me with such a proposal.

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.

MR BLACK: .

UNKNOWN: Mr Harmse, a lot of emphasis is placed on the fact, or on the question of why you didn't attack ...

JUDGE WILSON: This is re-examination, isn't it?  You haven't had an opportunity to question ...

UNKNOWN: Oh, yes, that is right, I am sorry.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you wish to put further questions to him?

UNKNOWN: I would like to.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well, you have leave to do so.  You have no objection I take it.

ADV PRINSLOO: I have no objection Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: A lot of emphasis was placed on the question of why you didn't attack a government institution, but if I listen to your testimony and I would like you to correct me if I am wrong, you throughout said that the enemy was the government and the ANC/SACP alliance, is that your testimony?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that was correct.

UNKNOWN: And then you replied that the target which you had selected, you regarded that to be a target that would convey the correct message.  The message which had to be conveyed, to whom would that be conveyed?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: It would be to the then government.

UNKNOWN: To the government, okay, so then you
continue and you said that the government would hand over the country to the ANC/SACP alliance.  When according to you, would this hand over take place?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That would take place in April 1994 with the elections.

UNKNOWN: So what you are saying, or do you say then that this message or deed was committed in order to prevent the country from being handed over at the elections?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: It was furthermore asked whether anybody had congratulated you in that case.  Would you had become a General if you hadn't committed this act?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: No, I would definitely not have become a General at that stage.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: .

ADV PRINSLOO: I have no re-examination of Harmse, Mr Chairman, I have one question directed at Froneman.

ADV PRINSLOO: .

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Froneman, if I understand your testimony correctly, you gave testimony that the target which was Muslim people and which would have involved your own religion should the ANC have taken over, because of the considerable Muslim support for the ANC,is that how you believed this?  Did you believe that your faith would be threatened by the take over of the ANC in lieu of the strong Muslim support?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I believed that at that time, since while I was still at school they removed religious instruction from schooling as a school subject.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV PRINSLOO: .

JUDGE WILSON: Re-examination?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: .

JUDGE WILSON: I can't remember whether I asked you if you had any further witnesses you wish to call?

UNKNOWN: No further witnesses.

ADV PRINSLOO: No further witnesses Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Harmse, you were a voluntary organisation.  In a voluntary movement, there is no need for one to follow orders, is that not the case?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Mr Chairman, this was a movement which one joined voluntarily, nonetheless it was in a certain manner a military movement.  We wore uniforms, there was discipline and if one was given a command, you had to carry it out

ADV DE JAGER: What would have happened to Mr Froneman if he defied an order?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Then one could be thrown out of the movement and he could be suspended and to be suspended from a movement like this, would mean that for a Boer that there would be no further possibility for one to show your face in front of another Boer, it would have been a great shame.

ADV DE JAGER: What would you have done had Mr Froneman not listened to your instruction?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Mr Chairman, at that time I would have suspended him ... (tape ends)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Froneman, what would have happened to you had you ignored this or defied the orders?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: On several occasions in the Boer Resistance Movement, they spoke of a six pack, then you would have been defined or classified as a traitor, if you defied orders,
then you would have sold out your people.  You would have been a traitor to your people.  You would then have appeared before a court martial order who could have given you this six pack, namely they would shoot you through the knees.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you hear this?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: This was at a meeting of the Organisation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Harmse, did you really believe that the majority of the Muslim community were members of the ANC?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  Until now in government, there are high positions filled by Indians who are Muslims and at that time they were also highly regarded in the ANC/SACP alliance.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At that time, on what grounds was your believe based?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: At that time it was my faith, my conviction that for my God, my people and my country.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now what was the basis of your believe that the majority of the Muslim community were members of the ANC?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: I believed this since most Indians are Muslims.  At that time many of them held senior positions in the ANC and the SACP.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did your Organisation at any stage during that period conduct any survey to determine whether the people who were holding such key positions within the ANC and were of Indian origin, whether those people were in fact of the Muslim faith?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: The Boer Resistance Movement at that time told me that most Muslims ...

INTERPRETER: It appears that the witness is saying that most Indians are Muslims, that most of the people with high
positions are Muslims.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you launched this attack pursuant to the decision which was taken at the Rustenburg meeting and at that meeting you were told that you were to select your own targets, but you were nevertheless advised that in the selection of your targets, you were to ensure that the objectives of the BWB were advanced?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is the case.  We were instructed to carefully identify our own targets with the intention of meeting the goals of the BWB, and that is why we selected this target.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you not select a target immediately after that Rustenburg meeting, why did you have to wait until the telephone call which you received around the 17th of September?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: We wanted to wait before selecting a target since we had not yet received instructions to continue with the war.  Only once I received the telephonic instruction to continue since the war had started, that we identified the target and continued with our actions.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, I would imagine that you took those instructions seriously of selecting a target that would enable the objectives of your movement to be advances.   What qualified Mr Froneman to be able to select such a target?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: I gave Mr Froneman the instruction to select the target since we worked in cells as I had already mentioned.  He was immediately under my command and it was his duty to identify the target.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Could you not have selected the target yourself?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: At that time I had just come out of hospital, I had neck trouble and I was not able to drive around on my own to look for a target, that is why I gave this instruction to Mr Froneman.