Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR LAX: Well you see this really troubles me, because as their colleague you should have known what their cover was, and their cover was that they were criminals, they hung out in bars pretending to be criminals on the run from South Africa, and that's how they made contact with other people who were likely sources of information.  In the case of Betty Boom, they pretended to be MK members, but in general that was their cover, they were pretending to be criminals on the run.  And you don't even know that, how could you have worked with them if you don't know that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I've explained that what I know is that they were known as the vehicle theft police, not as security police.

MR LAX: Well how would they have been able to recruit any informers if they were known as vehicle theft police?  Please explain that to me.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I cannot offer an explanation Chairperson, because I wasn't present all the time when they were recruiting people, so I don't know what they were using, what cover they were using.

MR LAX: But if you weren't present all the time it means you were present some of the time and during the time that you were present that's the cover they used, according to you.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now when you were talking about Nomasonto this morning, you said something which struck me, you said she asked you for permission to take the child's clothing with her, why did she need your permission to take the child's clothing with?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I said she asked to take the kid's clothes, she did not ask me personally, but she asked Mike.

MR LAX: That doesn't change the question at all.  Please answer the question.  Why was it necessary for her to ask your permission to do such a thing, it's the most normal logical thing you'd expect a mother with a child to do, why did she need your permission to do that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I think Chairperson, because at that time she was outside at the washing line, maybe it's the reason why she asked me for an opportunity for her to take the kid's clothing along.

MR LAX: Well you see I would expect someone who was being hurried and being forced to into a vehicle, to ask that question, to say "Please hang on a second, the child needs clothes, I can't just go off with the child without clothes and without nappies or without paraphernalia for a child".  So maybe that's what really happened and that's why she had to ask you such a question.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson, I think because we told her that we were sent by Betty she would not just leave us outside and enter the house, because we will also be surprised, but she asked us to get into the house to take the kid's clothes.

MR LAX: Maybe she had to ask you this because you were afraid that she might run for it and you didn't want that to happen.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson, I didn't think about that.

MR LAX: Yes.  Now just in the same vein, and it's my last issue with you, why is it necessary to guard some people who are co-operating with you, who are working with you, who have already been, one of whom has already been recruited by you, not you personally but you in the plural, why was it necessary to guard them?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: At that time Chairperson, I did not have any knowledge why it was necessary for me to guard those people, I just accepted the instructions.  I did not ask whether those people would run away or they were posing any danger, I was just given instructions.  I have also explained that after all these things have happened I asked myself if these people were friends or were our informers, why were they guarded all the time?  That is the question I asked myself.

MR LAX: Well that's the question I'm asking you.  You see if these people were you prisoners you would expect you to be behaving in that way towards them, to be guarding them, isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: No further questions, Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Chairperson, can I just ask two questions, every short.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Thulo, I would like you to respond to what I'm going to ask you, it in relation to the statements which are included in this bundle.  I think that will be fair that I ask you for your response.  When one reads the statement by Sietsi Mokhele, who was the husband to Nomasonto and the father of Nkosana, the impression one gets is that he says he assumes that after these people were kidnapped by the police, the police killed them or eliminated them, what do you respond to that?  I'm saying the tone of his statement is to that effect.  What is your response to that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I would explain it this way.  After all these things have happened I was told that all those people that we went to fetch were taken back to Lesotho, but after some time, I would say after two to three weeks I was also told that those people that we went to recruit have disappeared and I was told that they may have gone to Zambia.  I got this from Mr Jagga.  But when I listened to the news after the old government, the ANC was looking for the people who had disappeared, the people who ran to Zambia, but it became clear that those people were not amongst the people who ran to Zambia, so as a person you would ask yourself a question: 'what happened to these people, because they could not be traced."  If these people are still alive, even today, I think that they know that we have applied for amnesty and I think that they should be present here.
	So Chairperson, as a human being I think those people are dead, but how they died I don't know, because the last time I saw them was when I was told that they've been taken back to Lesotho.  I thank you, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it not so that the last time you saw them is when they were on a farm at Ladybrand?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: And the tone of Kadi's statement, to me at least, he speaks about the modus operandi of your unit when going into Lesotho, he speaks about various incidents where members of the ANC were attacked, some of them were killed.  Now it gives a pattern of violent acting against members of the ANC, which will be contrary to what we are told how you handled these four activists.  What is your response to that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would ask for forgiveness Chairperson, if I'm unable to explain this.  I would not agree to what I did not do.  I would not agree that I worked with Kadi, because I don't know him.  So what he is saying here, if it happened indeed - I will mention some of the incidents that took place in Lesotho in 1985 and some other years, that is when the Lesotho citizens and other members of the ANC were attacked.  They were attacked by the South African Military.  I believe that the South African Military, if they had interest in these people they also had their own informers that they used in Lesotho, so that they could get information.  That is the information that led to the attack in Maseru.  If there is something that Mr Kadi, that he did with Mr Jantjie and Robertshaw and Jagga, I don't know about that and I would not accept that I know anything about that.

MR SIBANYONI: We were told Eugene de Kock used to visit Ladybrand, did you encounter him there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I know the name Eugene de Kock and I see him on television, he used to come there, it's true he used to come Chairperson, but I have never met him personally.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further ques-tions.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything, Mr Visser, that arose from what the Panel asked?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  Mr Koopedi, anything arising from what the Panel asked?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing arose from your questions, thank you Chairperson.