Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I can't remember exactly whom I spoke to in this regard, but I did state that I did not trust the process.  Once again, I just gained these perceptions from newspapers and what politicians said.

ADV SANDI: Were you determined and serious to apply for amnesty and in that way get an opportunity to disclose what you have done?  Were you really serious and determined to apply for amnesty?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Just one or two matters Mr Chairman.  Mr Du Plessis, you did not raise this matter specifically, but the information which you had as far as that is concerned, with regard to the family members of Mr Madaka, is there anything that you can tell us in this regard, their participation?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Madaka's brother was at that stage a trained, or was outside the country and was regarded to be a trained MK member.

MR BOOYENS: Are you aware that he also had a sister, page 71 of Bundle B, Mr Chairman, by the name of Mboyiselo Madaka?  Sorry, I am just told this is the brother Mr Chairman.  So that question will fall away.
	Just one other aspect, the way you read the unrest situation in this area, were there any indications whatsoever, that the unrest could spread and if so, what were your perceptions regarding the scope of such expansion or spreading?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, the unrest occurred in the whole area and I would say escalated on a weekly basis.  If I were to think back Your Honour, the picture that we now have, is that the things were isolated during those years, but I can give you the assurance that as a member of the Force who was involved in the struggle there, it was not an easy matter to see anarchy developing.
	To see anarchy later being taken over by crime and then the fear develops, the question that arises is what next, where are we going to end.

MR BOOYENS: Did this feel to you as if the Police were attempting to normalise the situation and winning the struggle?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: During 1982, was anyone else killed or eliminated to try and stabilise or normalise the situation?  I am not talking about any other year, I am talking about 1982, was any one else killed?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: In the same manner, Your Honour?

ADV SANDI: In whatever manner?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I do apply as well for further indemnity.  I can't remember the exact dates, I think it was after 1982, Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: But what you are saying is that in 1982, no one else was eliminated to try and come to terms with this problem with instability in the Eastern Cape, is that what you are saying?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: If I understand your question correctly, what I am saying is many people, a number of people were killed in 1982, but not by me personally.  It was part of the unrest situation that people were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what the question is aimed at is, do you know if other people were eliminated by the Police during 1982?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: Do you know of any other people whose names and activities also became a subject of a discussion amongst the Police with the view to possibly eliminate such people in the end?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: At later stages, yes.

ADV SANDI: And what about 1982?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I cannot link what I am saying to a specific date.  I can't remember exactly.  It is possible that we might have discussed these things, but I can't remember whether that they were carried into affect.  People were prioritised according to their activities.  The specific activities in which they were involved and the way in which we should have acted against them.

ADV SANDI: Who were those people who were considered or discussed for possible elimination?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I am not saying for elimination, it could have been other actions as well, but various leaders figures were being worked on, Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: Do you know of any attempts which were unsuccessful to eliminate certain people?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I can't think of a specific person, Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that in all your attempts, you were always successful?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, that is not what I said, but I don't know of an attempt that was made and which did not succeed.

MR BOOYENS: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

MR PHOSA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  In your answer to questions from the Committee, in all of your answers, I understand and please correct me if I am wrong, that there were other people eliminated in 1982, but not by your personally.  Now this is what you said before you put another answer, give another answer, that you could not say, but you said before that, a number of people were eliminated in 1982, but not by your personally.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phosa, didn't he say a number of people were killed during the violence of 1982?  I don't think he used the word a number of people were eliminated.

MR PHOSA: You did say, and I would like this checked, but not by me personally?  You did say that, and if you didn't say that, I would like it checked.  That is how it came through to my interpretation.  And it is important to me if he said not by me personally.
	Did you say that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, it is possible - let me start with the reply.  I was referring to the unrest situation that they had been shot during the unrest.

MR PHOSA: The question from the bench from Mr Sandi in particular, was pertinently about people being killed, be eliminated in 1982.  Did you understand that question?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was killed, that was the word used.

ADV SANDI: I used both killed and eliminated to give him freedom to say everything.

MR PHOSA: I have a difficulty, let me just get this clear now.  Did you at any stage understand that you are being asked to mention if any people had been eliminated in 1982?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't think that is the way I understood it Your Honour.  I understood people who were killed in 1982.

MR PHOSA: Well, in that context then would you have said but not by me?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I did not kill them Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: Are you saying you were saying the people were killed in the violence of 1982, but not by my personally?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: That is your last reply, explanation of that answer?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR PHOSA: Now, did you say that is how it came out to me, that you would not again be involved in this kind of action, or being into eliminating people?  There is some rattling here, can I just correct it?  Mr Chairman, I am just trying to clear a rattle in my ear.
	Now, in so saying, did you say that and did you say you would not again be so indoctrinated?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Were you indoctrinated?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, Your Honour, I grew up in the system.  I served under a number of people and the circumstances daily led to indoctrination, because I believed that what the black person tried to achieve by means of the freedom struggle, was wrong.  Today my view is different.

MR PHOSA: Did you first of all get to a stage where you believed that the position in which the black man was, was justified?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: You believed that an adult of the age of Mr Mandela as he then was, shouldn't have been voting?  Was that your belief as a Policeman?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: You believed that the inferior status in which black people lived, was quite justified?