Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, Mr Chairman, I refer to page 63 of bundle B, I want to put to you that a letter was written in regard to yourself dated the 19th of June 1986, by Lieutenant Erasmus and directed to the Divisional Commissioner and it says in paragraph 4, this office has received information that the radical elements in the Black townships plan to act against the member, which is you, in the form of a necklace murder.  That is what this letter says. Is this letter wrong or is it correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I really don't know anything about the letter because I haven't seen the letter myself.

MR VISSER: I am asking you whether what I have read to you, was in fact correct or was it incorrect?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No.

MR VISSER: No, it is correct, no, it is incorrect?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It is not correct, because nobody has approached me by necklace.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And paragraph 5 of that letter then continues to say that this office, this is in Bloemfontein, Lieutenant Erasmus, advises that the member, which is you, must immediately be placed away from Bloemfontein to a district in a division where he is not known and it is suggested that preferably this should be the Ladybrand district.  You were in fact placed at Ladybrand in June 1986, I think you have conceded that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I conceded that because of the reason I have given that I was taken to Ladybrand not the reason which appears on that letter.  The reason was that I didn't have the experience to use a gun, that is why I was transferred.  Whatever is there, I don't agree with that.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, in fairness I must also refer you to page 64 where paragraph 2 bears out the fact that he was immediately transferred to Ladybrand, and that letter is dated also the 19th of June, thank you Mr Commissioner.
	At any event, you see the point I am trying to put to you here is this, Mr Ngo, whatever you may or may not have done as a policeman, as a student Constable in Bloemfontein, must have happened between the 11th of March 1986 and the 19th of June 1986.   Will you agree with that statement?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I said that is between 1985 and 1986.

MR VISSER: I am putting it to you that as a policeman, you could only have participated in incidents in Bloemfontein, between the 11th of March 1986 and the 19th of June, 1986.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was not keeping the records and the dates,  I only remember the years.  When I was there, which place or which month, I don't remember.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: But wouldn't you know for how long, more or less, you worked in Bloemfontein before you were transferred to Ladybrand?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is a long time.  As I say that I was accepted in the Police Force with a standard 8 certificate, then later I went back to complete standard 10.
	So between 1985 they have already completed my applications with a standard 8 certificate, so I don't remember the duration.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: But I thought the questions are on the premise that you could only have started working as a member of the Police Force, from February 1986, March 1986?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That may be possible, because I remember I stayed only for a month in Ladybrand.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, but in terms of these letters you must have spent only about four or maybe three months in Bloemfontein before you were transferred to Ladybrand.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It maybe four or so, but in Ladybrand I arrived in Winter.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The question which Mr Visser asked you was that whatever you did as a policeman in Bloemfontein or around Bloemfontein, must have been between March and June when you were transferred to Ladybrand?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: You mean before I was transferred or after I was transferred?  Do you mean that incidents happened before I was transferred to Ladybrand?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Well, then that must have been between March and June?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That maybe so.  I have forgotten the dates and I don't remember well.  But I remember White Mohapi we kidnapped and assaulted him before I was transferred to Ladybrand.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Doesn't that mean that it can't be otherwise.  I mean, if you started in March as a policeman and you were based here, and then you assaulted Mohapi before you were transferred to Ladybrand, then surely those things must have happened in the period that we are talking about between March and June?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I would explain to the Judge that I was attacked, then after I was healed in 1985, then they made me to fill the forms to be accepted as a police.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I am not talking about that period.  I am talking about from March 1986.  Don't take me back to a period before that.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It maybe so, I will take it as that.

MR VISSER: I am indebted to you Judge Ngoepe.  Just to continue from the last reply you gave where Judge Ngoepe asked you a few questions, you said you were in fact in Ladybrand as a policeman for about one month.
	Do you remember you said so?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I said I think I may have stayed there for a month, but I haven't said a long time.  I didn't say specifically it is a month.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Well, incidentally you are correct, because Mr Chairman, if you will look at page 66 of bundle B, it will appear that he was admitted to the police college from Ladybrand on the 4th of July 1986.
	The next point here which arises from this page Mr Chairman, is that he passed out on the 4th of December 1986.  All of that appears from page 66 of bundle B.  Have you found it Mr Chairman, page 66?
	So you see Mr Ngo, when I started asking you questions I said let's try to work out a framework within which you could have acted and we now know that you were in Bloemfontein as a policeman for three months in Ladybrand...

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I didn't want to interrupt my learned friend.  I have got a problem, not that anything is going to arise from this, my learned friend is bringing evidence before you by him reading what is contained in this record, as if it is evidence which has been accepted and this has not been put to the witness to see whether he agrees or not, or doesn't agree with what is stated in this record.
	And that is problematic.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I think he is just using this for purposes of cross-examination.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, My Lord, but my point is that he now proceeds to the next point and he states, it seems that he accepts it as correct that during the time recorded on this form, the applicant was at Hammanskraal and this has not been put to him to see whether he agrees with what is contained here or not.

MR VISSER: May I put it to the witness now Mr Chairman.  Would it be correct or do you deny that you were admitted to the South African Police College at Hammanskraal on the 4th of July 1986?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: Is it correct that you passed out as a police Constable on the 4th of December 1986?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: Is it correct that you were immediately appointed to a station in Mamelodi, Pretoria, Unit 19 as part of the Riot Squad?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: So we don't have to argue about that any longer?  Just coming back to finish off with Mr White Mohapi, you told this Commission earlier today that you heard from Mr Motsamai that the house which you thought belonged to Oupa Makhubelo, that you petrol bombed, in fact belonged to a person by the name of City Mzuzwana.  Did I understand you correctly?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: When did Mr Motsamai tell you this?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: During this hearing.

MR VISSER: Did Mr Motsamai come to visit you in jail?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No.