Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

CHAIRPERSON: I'm thinking for example, the fact that he had the weapons for some considerable time.  I'm sorry, as you can see I've got my papers in a bit of a mess.  No, sorry, he conflicts with Mazete in that he talks of Mazete having come to him to move the weapons, which Mazete denied flatly.  And you are not calling him to dispute it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Does that conclude all the evidence in connection with this application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, as far as the applicants are concerned that's the evidence so far, but Mr Chairman, it is my view and I request the Committee to grant me to get somebody from PAC and APLA to give evidence on the operation itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if they can come by tomorrow, certainly.  They've had ample notice of this hearing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'm trying to do my best.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not blaming you, I know the problems you've had before, it's merely that we have had, at other hearings, the same problem that APLA and the PAC are not particularly forthcoming when it comes to the question of giving evidence at their members' applications, are they?  You've had problems before, I seem to remember you have phoned, you have left messages and you have had no reply.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the case Mr Chairman.  You know very well how I struggle but Mr Chairman I've tried to, because I was trying to get Mpathlele but it seems as if he has given now a mandate to his deputy and other members who were in the decision-making, that somebody can come and give evidence.
	Now the problem I'm having at the present moment Mr Chairman, is to get hold, whether I can get, because they were not aware of that.  That's the problem I have at the present moment.  He has delegated them to, that they can come and give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: At moment, I'm speaking for myself, I don't feel inclined to adjourn this matter beyond tomorrow and you must make every endeavour to get somebody here by then.

MR MALAN: May I not ask if Mr Mpathlele himself could give that evidence.  Why did he not come?  He was fully informed about this application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Through you Mr Chairman.  I wouldn't like to go through - Mr Chairman, knows it very well, the difficulties ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He was an applicant.  He had full knowledge of this application.  He has appeared on a number of occasions, very few I would agree.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I would agree with you.  He appeared just to come and sit and not to participate even though he is an applicant in most of these cases, so that's the problem I'm having Mr Chairman.
	If he comes here he does not come here just to, he just comes and tells me he has just come to give the moral support to the applicants, not for himself to participate.

CHAIRPERSON: Hardly the attitude one would have expected of a senior party official.  Certainly if the applicants were acting on behalf of his party he would have a moral obligation to render them assistance, but we will adjourn until tomorrow and see what happens.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I would indicate that we had hoped in all these three applications, that we would be able to conclude them with oral argument, but in the light of the changes that have taken place in the present application and the various documents that have been handed in, I think it would be unfair to expect counsel at the present time, to be able to deal fully with possible conflicts that exist.  So it seems we will have to agree that the record of the proceedings be obtained and thereafter written argument be submitted, but we can decide the dates on that tomorrow.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Chair, if you will allow me, I think counsel may well be able to do that but the Committee will be unable to follow him.