Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-15

MR MALAN: Mr Motsepe, thank you very much.  You also alluded to two incidents in your statement which you do not have to share with us, but you broadly describe them in terms of a state of mind where you do not know who your attackers are or who the people are that you perceive to be a threat and that therefore you respond to every stranger as if that could be an enemy or an assassin.  We understand that and thank you also for sharing that in the written document.
 If I may ask the first question as a follow up to where you ended where you said I want to find out why did they threaten me, why did the want to eliminate me because, you said, you were only, sort of, exposing the evil of apartheid and calling for economic sanctions.  The Act enjoins us to look at the perspectives and motives of all perpetrators, but also at the perspectives of victims.  Now I am going to ask you to, I mean, you must have had your mind exercising this in the past, why did they want me out of the way.  Why do you think, how do you think their minds worked.  Those people that either did threaten you or those people that instructed some to threaten you.  What do you think their 
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perspectives were or their motives?  Do you have any thoughts on that?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Yes, well, I am afraid I cannot place myself, you know, in their psyches, but I know that I was involved in very, very high profile, you know, political activity.  I met the kind of people that they would never ever, they could never ever meet and I moved in circles that they could never be admitted and everything that they tried to achieve in pursuit of apartheid, we always made it misfire for them.  I mean to quote only a few incidents.  I was invited by the Mayor of Culemborg, where Jan van Riebeeck comes from, and they were tearing down statues of Jan van Riebeeck.  They contributed a lot of money towards the ANC coffers.  They, the Mayor of Culemborg even showed me letters from the South African Embassy in Holland, in Amsterdam pleading with them, saying that Jan van Riebeeck was the father of the nation of South Africa.  They should not, please, tear down these statues.  So I think those were some of the things which caused those, you know, people in top positions to say that, no, I have to be eliminated at all costs.  I do not know.  Maybe that might be one of the reasons.

MR MALAN: I hear you saying that, in a sense, you were very successful with your work and that presented a threat to their world or the way they understood the world.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: I think so, yes.  I think so.

MR MALAN: Okay.  May I ask you just one or two brief follow-ups.  You also talked about the bomb that was discovered on the 27th of March at the entrance, at the reception area.  Was there a time mechanism attached to the bomb?  Did you have any further information on that?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Yes, in fact, why the bomb was discovered in
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time was that a group of young Belgian students were sharing a flat at the top of the building where we had an office.  So they were coming back from a discotheque very late at night and as they were passing there they heard this ticking sound, you know, in a sports bag because this bomb was put in a sports bag.  So they heard this ticking, you know, in that sports bag and they were mentally alert, you know, to call the police because they knew that the previous month there was a shooting in our office.  So it was only discovered because they rang the police station.  Otherwise it would never have been discovered and it was because of the ticking in the sports bag which alerted them.

MR MALAN: You never found out for what time that mechanism was set, when it was?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: It was, I was told by the Belgian bomb squad that it was set to go off at nine Monday morning and, as I said previously, this was usually the time that I arrived at our office.  So, obviously, somebody must have been watching our office.  There was a restaurant at the corner opposite our office and we could see sometimes some very strange people sitting there watching, you know, our office as we go in and out.

MR MALAN: Just an observation and sharing with you.  You refer to this person who an identikit was done of, matched with the photograph and that you recognised.  You chose not to mention the name at the moment, but you did disclose that to us in the, in your statement and there will certainly be a follow-up of this.  In terms of how our system works we would have given notice already to this person asking for his comments. You alluded to the fact that he was later promoted within the force.  I just want to tell you that
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this seems to be almost par for the course.  We will have further evidence, too, today, not only within the forces of acknowledgement of people who did commit gross human rights violations within the ambit of this total belief and defence of a world or going for an ideal and that is certainly something that the Commission will have to apply its mind to when we go forward and coming to recommendations to the President, thinking of our report.  The acknowledgement or not of people who were involved either in the struggle or defence of the old system, believing what they were doing, committing gross human rights violations and even acknowledged post.  It is a very touchy issue and I want to share that with you and we really need to apply our mind, but from my side, for the moment before I hand you back to the Chairperson, thank you very much for a crisp and clear setting out of your experiences.  I appreciate it.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Thanks

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?  Ally.  Are you deferring.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Motsepe, if I could just ask a few questions and this relates to some of the research work that the Commission is actually doing.  Part of the research work is to look at the activities outside of the country, cross-border activities and also in Europe and you do mention that you suggest very strongly that there is a link between what was happening to you in Brussels and what happened to Dalcy September in France in Paris.  Could you just, if it is possible, to share with us some of your perceptions or observations as to how these hit squads were operating in Europe, how they were able to move from one country to another, how you think they were supported, that they could actually carry out activities which they were carrying out.  PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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What are your observations on this?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: You see, my observation at the time was that they were able to operate freely because in Belgian, for instance, we found out that they were doing all these evil deeds because they were in collusion with certain members, right wing members, of the Belgian security forces.  The ample instances where we were able to find out, you know, that the Belgian Security Forces or some members of the Belgian Security Forces were actively aiding and abetting, you know, these hit squads.  To site only one example.  You know the Belgian Security Forces were not really very keen in their investigations.  We had to actually supply them with, you know, a lot of our own investigative, our own investigations because they were not really very keen and at one time when we suspected very, very strongly that they were still in Belgian, they said to us that we must, they said to me, in particular, that I must not give any press conference because I would alert them that, you know, they were on their trail.  We later, subsequently found out through some investigative journalist that they gave them a chance to escape from Belgian.

RUSSELL ALLY: Who gave them a chance to escape?