Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: It is solely because this disturbed me for a very long time, because I nearly killed a teacher for nothing, because of violence that was taking place in Tokoza.
	To think that that person was innocent, he knew nothing, that actually disturbed me.  That is why I am here, and I also want to talk to him to tell him that it was nothing personal between me and himself, but it was because of the other people that we were fighting with, the people who wanted to kill us.

MRS NHLAYISI: Between the time that you have been released from jail and now, have you made any attempts to get hold of Mr Keswa and say what you are saying today, tell him that there was nothing personal towards him when this incident happened, it was the circumstances?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: No, I did not attempt to do so because I thought that if I go to him, he will be shocked and if he recognises me, it might look like I am trying to bribe him.
	I thought that he might think that I want to bribe him.  I told myself that I will wait for my turn to come and apply for amnesty.

MRS NHLAYISI: Do you have any specific message that you would like to send to this particular victim, if he would be in a position to hear your message?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: What message?

MRS NHLAYISI: About this incident, what would you like to say to him, with a view of bringing peace between yourself and with an aim of bringing peace in the community where you are staying?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I would like to tell him that what happened to him, he knew very well what was happening in the township at the time.  What was happening at the time when I nearly killed him.  I want to say this to him, I want to ask for forgiveness because what happened to him, was not personal.  I was trying to protect myself from my assailants or attackers.
	There is nothing else.

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS NHLAYISI

CHAIRPERSON: We will break for the tea adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: It seems that the cellphones are interfering with the interpretation mechanisms and the recording mechanisms.   As a result thereof, I must request that all cellular telephones be switched off.  Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, during the adjournment I think it was my turn to ask questions, I don't have any questions for the applicant Mr Chairman.  I think he finished his testimony as well.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  Mr Motshwene, there are parts of your evidence that I don't quite understand, so I am going to ask you to go through particular points for me.
	Just to get this right, Radebe Section, is that in Katlehong?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, it is in Katlehong.

ADV GCABASHE: So, you were on your way from Katlehong going home to Tokoza, when you came across this group of, I will call them vigilantes, which was one of the words that was interpreted to us, wearing red head bands, is that correct?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question Ma'am?

ADV GCABASHE: You were on your way home with a friend, when you came across this group of people, wearing red head bands and red arm bands?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: They harassed you and asked you which political party you belonged to and you said no, we don't belong to any political party, is that what you said?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: But they continued to harass you and you decided to run away and as you ran away, you shot at them, because they were behind you I presume?  Am I right?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: They were just opposite us.  I shot at them as they were chasing us because they pointed us with their assegais.

ADV GCABASHE: Again, I am trying to get the right picture.  They were in front of you and you ran towards them, or they were behind you and you ran away from them, clarify that for me.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: As we were running away, they were following us, they were chasing us from behind.

ADV GCABASHE: Right.  So you have these people behind you, chasing you and you shoot at them, and when you do this, they scatter and run all over the place, yes?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, they got scattered as I was shooting at them.

ADV GCABASHE: But you were still in front of them, and you were still running forward towards Tokoza, am I right?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question?

ADV GCABASHE: At this point you and your friend were still ahead of them, you were still running towards Tokoza?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: This is where I have another gap, please help me with this.  At this point, you appeared to say that you decided to go and fetch your comrades.  Just put that sentence that I wrote down earlier, in the right context for me.
	You are running away from these people, what then happens?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: We did not think of fetching the comrades as we were going back to Tokoza when we parted with these people, I don't understand you, what do you mean?  When we parted with these people, we went to fetch the other comrades, or you want to know if we wanted to fetch the comrades as we were coming from Radebe Section, what is your question?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: When you gave testimony earlier, I wrote here that these people were scattered around the place, some ran into the school yard.  That is what I wrote.  I realised they only had knopkieries, you realised that they didn't have firearms.
	My next sentence is, I went to fetch my comrades.  If I misunderstood what the Interpreter was saying, please correct me.  If you did in fact go and look for your comrades, please clarify the point.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: You did not understand.  As these people wanted to attack us with their sticks, they tried to chase us.  I drew my pistol and I shot at them, and they were scattered around the place.  The others ran into a school yard.
	I could see that they were not armed, they did not have firearms.  That is when I decided to get into the school yard, to fetch the others, because I realised that they were not armed, they did not have any firearms.
	I wonder if you want me to explain further?

ADV GCABASHE: That has helped to a certain extent.  When they ran into the school yard, into the school yard, you realised that they didn't have firearms, you then made a U-turn and came back to deal with this group, is this what you are saying?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Two questions, the first one is, where was your friend at this point?  There were two of you originally?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: He was still with me all the time.

ADV GCABASHE: So the two of you turned back to deal with these chaps.  Why did you turn back to deal with these chaps?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: First of all, this vigilante group, I don't like them, they caused injuries.  They injured me and the IFP people, I was nearly killed in 1992, by Bhekinsele Khumalo, therefore I disliked those people.
	Whatever they tried to do to me, they would try to do to me, I would retaliate because I was nearly killed by the same people.

ADV GCABASHE: Again explain that to me even further.  You were turning back to avenge what they had done to you in the past or what Bhekinsele Khumalo had done to you in the past, is this what you are saying?  Help me with this.