Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

MS LOCKHAT: The next amnesty applicant is Mr Pienaar.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I've just been informed that we didn't catch that all.  Mr Pienaar, what are your full names please, just for record purposes.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Pienaar, you are the applicant in this specific case, regarding actions on the 8th of June as well as the 12th of June 1988, which took place in Piet Retief, regarding which Mr de Kock has already given evidence?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, the application of the applicant appears in bundle 1, page 110 to page 117, in the middle thereof and then there is also an Annexure B, page 118 until the end of it, which would be page 125.
	Mr Pienaar, at the time of these events you were stationed in Piet Retief and you were the Branch Commander of the Security Branch?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: For how long at that stage had you been stationed there, approximately?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Approximately eight years, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you specifically involved with investigations and intelligence collection from Swaziland and as it was known then, the Eastern Transvaal/Natal region?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you make use of informers at that stage?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, I did.

MR PRINSLOO: In your staff at this time, a Mr Theron also served.  He is now a Major and he is also an applicant?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: As well as a Mr Hayes, who is also an applicant?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Botha?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And a Mr Barnard?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is so.

MR PRINSLOO: All of these persons are co-applicants in this matter.  Mr Pienaar, with regard to the first incident, is it correct that you were involved in a trial in the Circuit Court in Bethal, when Mr Theron, a co-applicant, who was then handling an informer of yours, informed you regarding certain information?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.  But the informer was actually handled by Mr Theron himself and not by me.

MR PRINSLOO: And your specific informer, as a result of that information, did you go and see that informer?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, at the office.

MR PRINSLOO: And after you had obtained the information from this informer, did you make contact with our co-applicant, Mr Eugene de Kock?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And did Mr de Kock come to Piet Retief?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, he did.

MR PRINSLOO: And was he accompanied by certain members, as it is known today, from Vlakplaas?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Was an action then planned regarding this first incident?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, an action was planned.

MR PRINSLOO: And was any vehicle used, such as a Corolla 1300 vehicle from the Detective Branch?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And who would have been the driver of that vehicle?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Lt Mose, from Col de Kock's people.

MR PRINSLOO: And what would have been the planning?  Just briefly.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That he would stop at a place near the Swaziland border.  I can tell the Committee that the place was easily recognisable because there was only one great big dry bluegum tree in that area and that was the place where he was supposed to wait, and that was where the people would be brought to him, so that he could transport them to the RSA.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Pienaar, according to your information, these persons who would be infiltrating, would they be usual or regular MK members, or what was the position?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: They were all trained MK members.  At that stage there was a tremendous influx of MK members from Mozambique to Swaziland.  The Swazi police at that stage were experiencing quite a number of problems regarding MK members and they had to infiltrate as quickly as possible into the RSA.

MR PRINSLOO: And the MK members who infiltrated the RSA in such a manner, would they have been trained people, people who were armed?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, they would be trained armed persons.

MR PRINSLOO: And according to the information, these persons would come in to sow terror, or not?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: They would come in to spread terrorism in the Natal area.

MR PRINSLOO: And this specific informer, was he or she a reliable person?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, very reliable.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there any previous information of a reliable nature that had been provided by this person?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And was Lt Mose aware of where the action would take place?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: We pointed out the place to him where we would be waiting for his return.

MR PRINSLOO: Was he told what was expected of him upon his return to this place?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: What was it?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It was arranged that he would flicker his headlights and also switch on his left indicator light if those persons whom he was transporting were armed.  He also, once he had brought the vehicle to a standstill, had to try and get away from the vehicle as immediately as possible.  If the persons that he was transporting were not armed, he would not have to switch on the indicator light, he would just have to pull over to the left side of the road and get away from the vehicle.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Pienaar, that specific evening you, accompanied by Mr de Kock, Lt Ras, Theron, Hayes and Barnard, took up your positions at a specific place on the Houtkop road.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And were all of you armed?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, all of us were armed.

MR PRINSLOO: And can you tell the Committee what took place while you waited there?