Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-02

MR MAPOMA: And Mr Mamani, he says, I want you to be aware of this, he says on that ground he is opposing your application because he says you are not making full disclosure to this Committee, he says you are not candid to this Committee, you are not telling this Committee that you shot him three times and he had to be admitted in Cecilia Makhiwane Hospital as a result of that?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Is he saying that I am the one who shot at him, is that what he is saying?

MR MAPOMA: Your company, it may be you as well?

CHAIRPERSON: When you were inside you say, how many shots did you hear?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I cannot remember but it was more than once.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say in your evidence you heard a shot outside?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I heard a firearm, I heard a gunshot from the outside.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard a gunshot?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you remember?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It was not only one shot though I cannot say for sure about how many times.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you see I want to refer you to your statement that you sent to the TRC, it's found on page 10 and 11 of the record of the bundle where in the third paragraph you say
"Before we could even calm him we heard gunshots, about three of them."
It's about four lines from the bottom of the typed version.  It's about 10 lines down on page 11.  Do you remember you said so or do you dispute it?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I remember that, I'm the one who wrote that statement.  I've been saying I heard the gun firing about three times, I cannot say for sure as to how many times but it was more than once.  Three times or more, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: And that came from outside not inside?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It was not from the inside.

CHAIRPERSON: And it occurred when you were inside?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: What I remember is that I kicked the door open, the policeman was crying and his firearm was on the floor, that is when I heard the firing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Do you admit or deny that this policeman who was inside was shot and injured by your company?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I only know the policeman who was outside was hurt, I only know about the policeman who was outside was hurt, I don't have any knowledge about the policeman who was inside.  I might be making a mistake about that but I don't know.  I only know about the policeman who was outside.

CHAIRPERSON: And what mistake might you be making?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: If this person is saying that he was hurt and he was inside, I disagree with that, he was outside.  The only person who was injured was the person who was outside.  The people who went to the door were the two of us, myself and Muntsu.

MR MAPOMA: Please just get this correctly.  He is not saying he was shot whilst inside necessarily, what he says is that he is the policeman who was inside when you came there.  There were two policemen, one outside and one inside and he's the one who was inside and he was shot and injured in the scuffle that was going on.  Whether inside or outside he was shot three times.  Do you deny or admit that one?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I'm sorry, Chairperson, in all fairness to the applicant, it needs to be stated categorically where was this policeman shot because he is saying this policeman was never shot inside therefore it cannot be said that he was shot either inside or outside?

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know if that matters much whether it was inside or outside, your client's version is that while he was busy there inside there was a policeman there and he heard this shot or shots outside and when he went there he saw this person lying down there, evidently injured or killed, so the crux of the issue here is whether the person claims to have been shot was the person that your client encountered inside the office or not or whether shot there was the person they encountered while sleeping in the police van.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my understanding is that there were shots which were fired whilst the applicant was inside and subsequent to that, the applicant and others were shooting randomly and that was inside then but now at that stage the policeman was not there.  Then it will be then unfair if he is expected to admit on a speculation whether it was inside or outside because he is saying inside he was never shot at whilst he was there?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but Mr Nompozolo, is there really an issue here?  This policeman doesn't say that your client injured him, shot him?  He's just simply saying that he was injured in this incident and the question is, is it possible, did your client actually deny that as a fact or is it possible, does he concede whether it's possible that this policeman was injured in this incident?  Is there really such a big issue here?

MR NOMPOZOLO: No, it's no issue then, if that is the case, no it's no issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, - yes, just have your water first.
	Mr Mapoma is saying that according to the policeman who was inside the charge office, he, that policeman, was also injured in this incident, he was wounded.  Now the question is what is your comment on that, is it possible, are you saying it's not true or what?  Well maybe we can make it easier for you, how many policemen were injured during that incident?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: A policeman was injured, only one policeman injured in this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Only one?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now which one was that as far as you're concerned?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The policeman who was sleeping in the car, that is what I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  When you went to investigate this shooting, this policeman that you encountered in the police station, was he still in the police station?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I am not certain about that because of the way you put it.  To me it looked like there was no one inside but what is confusing me is the fact that we found the firearm inside and there was a person inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now when you heard the shots outside you went to look, is that right?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I just peeped outside and I heard Nomabise talking.  I went back again.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you peeped outside, the policeman you found in the police station, he was still in the police station not so?  That's how I understand your evidence, he had not left the police station when you peeped out or by the time you had peeped out?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I remember seeing this policeman crying and the firearm was on the floor.  Surely he was still inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and when you peeped you saw the other one who you thought was injured lying on the ground there.  Nomabise saying he was trying to escape?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So clearly if Nomabise had shot at that person and injured him it was the person who was lying outside when you peeped outside of the police station, correct?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say there was only one policeman injured in that whole incident from the time you came to the time you left?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it could not have been the person you encountered in the police station first, the person who was crying and whose pistol who was lying on the floor?  He could not have been injured, it wasn't him that was injured in that incident?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes it's like that because when I peeped outside I saw a person lying down and this other policeman was still inside the charge office so it was impossible that the person inside was the one who was injured.

CHAIRPERSON: By anybody?  Because you told this policeman to run away, not so?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.