Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1988-01-19

ADV DE JAGER: In their own testimony he heard that they were present that evening of the incident but regarding him they didn't do anything?

MR STANDER: That's correct Mr Chair, that is correct.  He said that he didn't see them because the policemen who held him were two others, not Motsamai and Ngo.  The only reason why this testimony is placed before you is due to the fact that Motsamai and Ngo testified about this, that's the only reason.
	I can't - the Committee can make no deductions from this testimony, it is only in addition to the earlier testimony.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He doesn't know who fired the shot?

MR STANDER: That's correct Mr Chair, he doesn't know.
	Mr Mzuzwana, is it correct to say that you laid a civil claim at a later stage?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That's correct.

MR STANDER: And also that the matter was settled in the Supreme Court here in Bloemfontein?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Yes, it was settled.

MR STANDER: And the defendants in the matter was the South African Police?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That's correct.

MR STANDER: No further questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: Sorry Mr Chairman, may I go first?  Thank you.
	Mr Mzuzwana, are you also known as: "Zwelinzima: Z-w-e-l-i-n-z-i-m-a Mzuzwana"?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Not Zwelinzima but Wzelinjani: W-z-e-l-i-n-j-a-n-i.

MR VISSER: Please stop me if I'm wrong, but on one of the occasions, previous occasions during this hearing, were you not called and asked what your name was when were in the other hall?  I may be mistaken, please stop me if I'm wrong.  Were you asked by the Committee to tell the Committee what your name was when we were sitting in the other hall?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Which Committee are you referring to Sir?

MR VISSER: This Committee before whom we are appearing today?

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I tried to help my learned friend by pointing out to him that it was his brother who was called at a previous occasion to come and clear up the matter of the name.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, well, I'm now compelled to go on and I can't take that matter any further.
	Did you during your trial, tell the court the same story as you told this Committee today about who were present at the time when you were shot that evening?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Yes, I did tell the court.

MR VISSER: I have before me Mr Chairman, a document which I very good belief emanates from the Investigation Unit.  May I enquire from you Mr Chairman, whether you and your members have a document which came from the - a report from the Investigation Unit?
	It's a rather thick bundle and it's unfortunately not paginated.  In that bundle under a number which I have here as 7.3 - it's about 2/3rds through that bundle, where the Investigation Unit with the allegations of Mr Motsamai.  They have attached for your attention, a Judgement by van Coller J. in a civil claim instituted by this particular witness against the South African Police.
	I'm not going to waste time on this Mr Chairman, but there is one aspect which I believe is my duty to point out to you.  If you have found it Mr Chairman, it is at page - typed page four of that Judgement.  If you haven't found it Mr Chairman, may I perhaps hand up my copy to you and I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The first top line is
"also the contents of the"

MR VISSER: I want to refer you to linen 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the bundle is E2.

MR VISSER: E2, thank you Mr Chairman.  And I want to refer your attention to line 10 of that page.
	According to - I'm addressing you now Mr Mzuzwana, according to the summary by the Judge in the case in the Supreme Court where you were the Plaintiff against the police,  he stated that your evidence was that you knew two of the people there that evening and those two people that you saw there and you knew, were Nkosi and Ngo.  Do you understand the question?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I understand your question Sir.

MR VISSER: Now, was that in fact your evidence that you gave during your trial, that you saw Nkosi and Ngo there that evening?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That is my evidence.

MR VISSER: And are you today uncertain about Ngo because you did not include him today in your evidence?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Chairperson, I would like you to take this into consideration.  It's been many years since this incident and today I'm just picking up.

MR VISSER: Alright.  So is what you're saying, that your memory was better when you gave your evidence in the Supreme Court than what it is here today?  Is that what you're saying?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Aright.  Now I must put this to you, I'm going to argue to this Committee that your evidence in this regard, implicating Mr Ngo, is entirely untrustworthy for the reason that Mr Ngo didn't place himself on that scene but Mr Motsamai in fact is the person who applied for amnesty in regard to that event.
	At page 147 Mr Chair, of bundle A, paragraph 7.
Do you understand what I've just put to you?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I understand what you're saying Sir.

MR VISSER: Do you have any explanation for this conflict of evidence?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, subject to correct, I'm not certain at this stage, I can't recall what the evidence was exactly but my recollection is that Mr Ngo indicated some knowledge of this incident.

MR VISSER: Can my learned friend point to you Mr Chairman and myself to boot, where Mr Ngo has applied for amnesty in regard to this incident?

ADV MEMANI: I'm not saying that Mr Ngo has applied for amnesty with regard to the incident but somehow in his testimony my recollection is that he does refer to the incident.

MR VISSER: Well that takes us nowhere Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Do you have any explanation of this conflict of evidence which I've just put to you?

CHAIRPERSON: What conflict?

MR VISSER: The conflict is this, Ngo does not apply for amnesty, Motsamai does, this witness places Ngo on the scene, Ngo says he wasn't there.  He doesn't say he was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say: "I did not see Ngo and Motsamai but as they gave evidence they said they were there but I didn't see them"?

MR VISSER: But Mr Chairman, he has just confirmed that his memory was better during his trial and at the trial he said Ngo and Nkosi were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Today he hasn't.

MR VISSER: And the point is Mr Chairman, Mr Motsamai is the man who said: "I was there".  In any event, the rest is a question of argument Mr Chairman, I've made the point with the witness.  I just thought - in fairness to him I thought I'd give him an opportunity to - if there is an explanation, to present it to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if somebody can look up the record and find if Ngo did say it, that's the answer isn't it, it will appear in the transcript?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Who's the person that you've referred to as Erasmus?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I don't see him in this hall.

MR VISSER: Just tell us who he is.  Who do you know him as?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I know him only as Erasmus, I don't know his rank.

MR VISSER: Does he work at the butchery?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: He's a policeman.

MR VISSER: He's a policeman.  Where does work?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: He's a policeman.

MR VISSER: Do you know with what branch of the police he is or was?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: He was here in Bloemfontein, he was working in Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: Will you describe this person to us so that we can
try to identify him?

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, that is a completely unfair questions.  How can this witness describe a person?  He has already told us that this person is not present in this hall.

ADV DE JAGER: But it will indicate that he knows what he looks like and if he knows what he looks like he will be able to describe him.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, for me to describe you while I'm sitting here looking at you will take me a half a day.  There are other ways in which one can sort out this evidence in all fairness.