Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-08

ADV DE JAGER: You have just referred to about line 20, or between lines 20 and 30 of the typed page 13, and the indexed page 14, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.  If one looks at this piece of testimony, it would appear as if there are some contradictions, two contradictions.  Did you say to her that the Boer Resistance Movement stood on stage and said we don't want to kill people?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: No, the Boer Resistance Movement did not say this, they declared war.  I had no personal inclination to kill people, but the Boer Resistance Movement had declared war.

UNKNOWN: What you actually meant when you said this to her was the Boer Resistance Movement said that there was going to be war, but personally you did not feel that
you want necessarily to kill people?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Is it not true Mr Froneman, that in war people die?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I realise now, that in - yes people die in war, yes people die in cross fire.

UNKNOWN: I would like to refer you to Appendix B, that is also Exhibit B, on page 11 of the bundle.  Do you have it there in front of you?  In paragraph 1 you indicated the main purpose or goal of the Boer Resistance Movement.  There is an additional document, Exhibit C, in the bundle this would be on page 22 - have you previously seen the programme of principles of the Boer Resistance Movement?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I have seen it before.

UNKNOWN: Is it from this programme, that you withdrew the main goal of the Boer Resistance Movement, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You explain the principles of the Boer Resistance Movement in paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 up and including paragraph 11.  I want to take you to question 10(b), which would be on page 4.
	You explain in that paragraph that during 1960, the PAC and the ANC were banned Organisations.  This was long before your birth.  Did you have knowledge of this?

ADV DE JAGER: Could you just assist us again.  You are referring to ...

UNKNOWN: We are referring to Exhibit B, which has reference also to Mr Froneman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That would be page 15 of the original bundle, the paginated number.

UNKNOWN: It would be page 14.  Is it (b).  This would be Annexure B, also Exhibit B.  Mr Prinsloo handed this in on behalf of Mr Harmse and this morning I also handed an Exhibit B to you.

INTERPRETER: Adv de Jager, is not using the microphone.

UNKNOWN: Annexure B.

ADV DE JAGER: In our bundle, in the bound set, I think we are talking passed each other with the annexures.  What does the document look like, what is the title?

UNKNOWN: Exhibit B, Annexure B.  This is ...

ADV DE JAGER: The document with regard  to question 10(a), it seems to be understood which document is referred to.

UNKNOWN: It continues 10(b) on typed page 4.  You have made reference in your answer to question 10(b), to the time when the ANC was banned, but at that time you had not yet been born, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you have knowledge of the ANC having become a banned Organisation in earlier years?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, that is so.

UNKNOWN: Where did you obtain this knowledge, from AWB meetings?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: No, this is from the news media.  The National Party had banned them because of their terrorism.

UNKNOWN: You also had knowledge of their unbanning when they became legal Organisations, and what then happened?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you also have knowledge through the media and from the Organisations to which you belonged, that the expatriate members of these Organisations had returned
to the country?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What did they do when they returned to the country?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: They had been trained outside of the country, in countries like Russia, they were provided with arms and they returned secretly to our country.  There were training camps in Angola and places like that and they used guerrilla tactics, tactics of guerrilla warfare to advance their goals.

UNKNOWN: The then government, the National Party government, you have spoken of some things which you heard from the news media, when the National Party was still the government, what did they say to you ordinary people in the street, what the ANC onslaught was like, whether it was a serious or a less serious onslaught?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: The government of the time considered that to be a declaration of war against this country and that government.

UNKNOWN: You confirm therefore the content of Exhibit B, Annexure B with regard to the answers on questions 10(a) or (b).  In your original application, you had also said that you acted on behalf of the Boer Resistance Movement, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Mr Froneman, as a young man - as it also appears from the statement of Dr Labuschagne you had a very high view of the Boer Republican Army and you wanted to be a soldier, you wanted to fight and be in war, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: This inspired you to join these two
Organisations, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Nonetheless, you are still a very young man, a very very young man.  How would you at this time feel about the Volkstaat, have you abandoned the notion of a Volkstaat, what are your feelings?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I do not think I would ever abandon the notion of the Volkstaat, I have strong feelings for the Volkstaat.  I have been raised to believe that we should be governed by our own people.

UNKNOWN: The most important thing I want to ask you, I have sketched for you how badly you wanted to join, how badly you wanted to be at war, how now, how at this time, do you believe should this Volkstaat be attained?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Making war is not right, it cannot be done.  What we did was merely a drop in the ocean, it was of no value, but my means of negotiations and possibly by showing government that there is a real need for a Volkstaat, we may well one day achieve this ideal.

UNKNOWN: Mr Froneman, on the Sunday immediately after the incident, you went to a church service, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: After the church service, you went to speak to a minister of religion.

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: What did you say to him?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I went to the minister of religion, I was crying terribly and I asked him to help me because my life was in a real mess.

UNKNOWN: You did not tell him what you did, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: No, I did not tell him.

UNKNOWN: However, you did feel the need to speak to him, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you feel real remorse at that time?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: Yes, I felt considerable remorse and still today I feel great remorse particularly with regard to the man's wife and children.  It was not right what I did to them.
	Also with regard to the Indian community, I did not have the right to damage their property.

UNKNOWN: Did you have any grudge against the persons involved, Mr Mayet and the other persons damaged?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: I did not know these people personally, I had no grudge against them.

UNKNOWN: In the court case, you made the case on the same basis as you are doing today.  You said at that time that you acted under the instructions of the Boer Resistance Movement, is that correct?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: The same State Attorney which dealt with the case of Mr Harmse much later, also acted on your behalf is that correct?  How did he handle the case in court?

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: He presented the case to court and that the motive was political, it was a political motive.