Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-08

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: I just want to get it clearly on record what you understood happened  -it appears as if the people told you afterwards what happened and I just want you to confirm whether that is what you were told that she was beaten with a stick on the forehead op die voorkop by Jackson Tshemese.
 And when she was - when she was lying on the - lying down - 
after having been beaten, [indistinct] who is the son of Jackson Tshemese came and fired two shots at her while she was lying down, is that what you understood happened from what people told you.

UNKNOWN: That is what people say, that is what the eye witnesses say, I arrived when she was strewn on the ground already.  I don't know what happened, I was not there.  The house that she was shot at, was horizontally beneath the house I was at, at the time.  They are just running away with the truth.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] were detained and were you taken to court?

UNKNOWN: I did not go to court, I was just detained.  It is before the  funeral that my son came to ask for my release, so that I could go to the funeral.  I was never taken to a court of law.
 We were just taken to Victoria West to bury my child, I never went to any court of law.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you, were you - you were kept of a week in the police cells in Phillipstown, is that what happened?

UNKNOWN: No it was not a week - it was a month.  It is on the 2nd month that I was released to bury my daughter.  I stayed in the cell for more than a months.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] again in the cells after your daughter was buried?

UNKNOWN: No I was not taken back.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] at the time when your daughter was buried and then you were - you were not taken back into police custody.

UNKNOWN: I was not taken back to police custody again.  It is together with the Reverent that I was released.  The very same Reverent that conducted the ceremony at my daughter's funeral.
 It is John Jantjie who came to ask for our release, they otherwise did not want us to go.  Even the funeral they gave certain conditions.  We wanted to bury my daughter on a Saturday, but it is on a Friday that they forced us to bury my daughter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much Ms Jantjie.

MS SEROKE: Ma'am how long did Elsie stay in hospital before she died?

UNKNOWN: She just stayed one day, and the following day she passed away.  We heard on the Monday as we had taken her in on the Saturday that she had passed away.

MS SEROKE: When then was she buried - did she - did her - how much time elapsed before she was buried, was it a week?

UNKNOWN: I can't remember whether it was a week, I can't remember, but she stayed a while.

MARY BURTON: Mr Jantjie [indistinct] we want to thank you for coming to tell us about this, this afternoon, Mr Jantjie you came from de Aar I believe, so we are thankful that you did so end of Tape 3, Side B ... told us about a very time in Phillipstown and I would just like us to have a few moments to reflect on why and how these things happened.
 And I'd like to go back to thinking about Phillipstown even before the death of Sophie and the other things that happened.  Right back to June 1984 when the students in Phillipstown created an organisation called the Phillipstown Black Students Organisation.  And the gradual rise in political activity in Phillipstown of that period and then later the stayaway and the march to the municipality office on the 16th of June in 1985.  Because I think if we understand those protests and the way that life was in Phillipstown at the time, it helps us a little bit to understand what happened.
 There was a protest particularly around the high rents in Lucanje Zweni and as all over the country a demand for the community councillors to leave the township.  And the Phillipstown Youth Organisation and the Phillipstown Residence Association were created.  As again we have heard in so many places that we've been to as the people came together and they could no longer stand the way that they were living in those days.
 And they tried to have protests with the Municipality but nothing very much seemed to help.  And then there began to be detentions and action taken against the youth.  And that stepped up the mood of anger and of militancy in the area and feelings generally became stronger and stronger on all sides.
 Then you will remember that the beer hall which was again in many communities all over the country seen as something that was destructive to the community life, was burnt down and the township administration offices were burnt down and again we saw that all over the country and people were arrested and detained and charged, so once again there was more anger and more court cases and generally people's feelings became stronger.
Then in 1985 the stop that was owned by community councillor Kleinbooi Jacobs was burnt down, and that brought the group that we've already heard about  from Mr Simakadane and there attacks on people.  So that the anger swept back and forth between the groups of people in Phillipstown.
We are told that up until that time, Xhosa speaking people and the Coloured communities of Phillipstown had got on well but during this time that kind of division began to emerge as well.  And it was in the light of all that history that the Tshemese family became regarded as targets.  Jackson Tshemese was worked for the then Bantu Administration Board.  His nephew Silingo Tshemese worked as a Municipal policeman, Silingo's father Geelboy worked for Community Councillor Kleinbooi Jacobs.
And in December 1985 the Tshemese home was petrol bombed and we have heard about the things that happened and the things that happened to Sophie and because of the turmoil and because of people's anger and people's high feelings, there are different memories - there are different versions of what happened and our attempt to find out exactly what happened is not in order to find revenge on anybody or to punish people for what in a way they were the victims of those circumstances of that time to happen.
It's in an attempt to say now we understand what happened and now we are reaching a point where we can try to put it behind us.  That may mean that some people have to say I am sorry, which is a very hard thing to do, that people have to seek amnesty for what they did and try and bring these things out in the open, not to punish but to put it behind us and that's what we are trying to do now.
So it's okay for people to express their strong feelings and their anger but that anger mustn't be translated into revenge because then we go on and on creating bad and worse situations.  So what I am saying is that we seek to understand what is happening, you asked us who is the guilty one, and it does help to know who is the guilty one, especially if you feel that you have been wrongly accused and wrongly punished.
So our ongoing task will be to try to find out who is the guilty one, but in order to be able to say  let us now try to turn the page, and move forward.  So I thank you once again for coming to talk to us and I hope that you will if not be reconciled with what happened at least have a deeper understanding, not maybe today, but in the days ahead.  There is a lot of work that still needs to be done among people in Phillipstown, thank you very much indeed, you may leave the stage now, thank you.