Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-10

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I am a psychologist and apparently you alerted Doctor Weiss on Brigadier's condition and her observations are based on some kind of behaviour indication.  In your opinion, what in the Brigadier's behaviour and demeanour made you conclude that he was not in a position to appear before the Commission?

ADV COLLETT: Sorry?  To appear at the Commission?  Yesterday during the consultations that we had, as I've mentioned, the Brigadier was not coherent, he was very fatigued.  He was not concentrating at all.  He would jump from one aspect to a totally unrelated aspect and I formed the view, and I might add that it won't be the first time that I have referred people to state psychiatrists in my profession.  I formed the view that something was not quite right.  I was unable to take proper instructions from Brigadier Gqozo.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: This was yesterday?

ADV COLLETT: This was yesterday during the consultations.  I continued for a while thinking that the situation might improve when in actual fact it simply deteriorated.  I accordingly telephoned Doctor Weiss on her cell phone in Umtata yesterday and raised my concerns with her and she said to me, based on her observations and her previous clinical diagnosis of Brigadier Gqozo, that the symptoms which I had raised with her were characteristic of a depressive episode, such as the episode which Brigadier Gqozo is suffering from and that is why I brought the application.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: He in fact was in treatment before you saw him?

ADV COLLETT: No, he, you mean before I saw him yesterday?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: No, before you saw him on Tuesday.

ADV COLLETT: Tuesday last.  Tuesday last week?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Yes.

ADV COLLETT: No.  He, the treatment was prescribed by Doctor Weiss pursuant to her examination of him.  She prescribed certain medication and it is also being followed by psycho-therapy.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Do you have any idea what kind of medication she prescribed?

ADV COLLETT: Yes if the Commission will bear with me, I do have a copy of the prescription, I believe.

CHAIRPERSON: You may not behave like school children whereby the teacher some of the times may have to resort to detaining you.  I have got policemen here who are going to stop you from going out of the hall.  Could you show that you are disciplined people which is something that our people have been able to do.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa you said you have...

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now Advocate Collett I just want to get this sequence of events.  This application which is being brought today, the notice of application was compiled today.  It however has attached to it an affidavit that was deposed to on the 3rd September by Doctor Weiss, is that correct?

ADV COLLETT: That is correct.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And the allegation in the affidavit that the affidavit should be prepared by Doctor Weiss, was at your request, that allegation is correct?

ADV COLLETT: That is also correct Sir.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And you wanted this particular opinion for the 3rd September?

ADV COLLETT: Mr Commissioner sir, when Brigadier Gqozo surrendered himself to me last week, I consulted with him at that stage to do with the matter, the criminal matter which he was expected to appear on in Bophuthatswana.  It was during those consultations that I thought that there was some problem which necessitated me summoning Doctor Weiss.
 At that stage I summoned Doctor Weiss for that particular case.  When I spoke to Doctor Weiss yesterday, asking her what she thought I should do in the circumstances with the symptoms that had presented themselves during extensive consultations yesterday and I asked her opinion, she said her opinion is the same as the psychiatric report that she compiled on Brigadier Gqozo the week before.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Do I understand therefore that the opinion on the basis of which this application is being moved, is based on an examination that was done on the 3rd September by a psychiatrist?

ADV COLLETT: That is correct Mr Commissioner.

ADV NTSEBEZA: So it is not as though she examined him yesterday.

ADV COLLETT: No Mr Commissioner, she did not examine him yesterday.  I merely contacted her telephonically in Umtata based on the report that she had given me and asked her what her opinion was.  She gave me her opinion and she said to me her opinion remains as it is in that affidavit and that I should feel free to use that affidavit to support my contention.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Is it therefore correct that the opinion that he would not make a contribution is your opinion?

ADV COLLETT: Yes that's my opinion.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Which is based on the consultations yesterday.

ADV COLLETT: It is my professional opinion based on the consultations yesterday, the information that was given to me by Brigadier Gqozo, which in my opinion did not suffice for me to be able to advise him properly of his legal rights or to prepare him for the Commission today which is backed by Doctor Weiss' report and Doctor Weiss' yesterday verbal opinion.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Yes I understand that and is your opinion that he has since deteriorated from the condition in which he was on the 3rd September - your opinion?

ADV COLLETT: I am not a psychiatrist, Commissioner, with respect.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I would have thought so.

ADV COLLETT: But my opinion most certainly is that he certainly hasn't improved as of yet and I was of the opinion yesterday that the extensive consultations in fact were making his condition worse.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now may I just ask if you concur with her opinion, in other words with Doctor Weiss' opinions in respect of the following conclusions that she makes?  Did you yesterday get an opinion, formulate an opinion as Doctor Weiss had done on the 3rd that there is a marked feeling of worthlessness and guilt on the part of Brigadier Gqozo?

ADV COLLETT: Mr Commissioner sir, I wish to comment that obviously anything that transpired between Brigadier Gqozo and I is protected by legal privilege.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I appreciate that.

ADV COLLETT: But I will go as far as saying that Brigadier Gqozo is a person who is not the person that the people saw him as in the past.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Yes, ja, in fact, yes you are protected.  You are protected.  As my colleague Advocate Potgieter indicated, we have to be satisfied as a Commission to whom an application has been made that we have applied our mind to the matter and that is why we are even relying on your assistance, even if it might tend to transgress the attorney/client or council/client relationship.
 Did you also formulate the impression that Doctor Weiss had formulated that he is highly suspicious of people?

ADV COLLETT: Yes I did formulate that impression but I might add, Mr Commissioner that that in itself certainly never led me to the conclusion that he was incapable of appearing at the Commission today.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now seeing that he would have been coming to testify before a Commission and you yourself see the evidence of the number of people who obviously would have been interested by his testimony, there is an opinion here that has been stated by Doctor Weiss, that he feels he is targeted to be killed.  Did you get that impression in your consultations with him?

ADV COLLETT: Yes I did.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I have to, I really think I will need to call this part of it...  Yes all right.