Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

DINA ANVARI: Again, you made a decision, you made a sound decision not to raid one and go to the other, which means that you had a right to make decisions, and so you were not under orders to go to the Bahai Centre and kill, you had no choice but to obey the order.
	You could have very well turned around and go to a church in, I don't know, another neighbouring who had lots of other whites probably, and you also had a choice to kill my husband who was outside and not go inside and get to the other people who were inside.
	You also had a choice, while they were coming out of their cars, also killed them and not wait until they go inside the hall.  You had choices which you did not exercise.  You also had the choice of not robbing a car and going into the neighbouring houses.  You also had the choice to cover your faces when you were doing this, so you wouldn't be recognised and you could just walk out without anybody seeing you.  You did not make any of those choices.  You went in there, without being afraid of being found out with pure daylight, faces showing, you were not afraid of being recognised on that scene, otherwise you would have covered yourself in some way or protected yourself.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No Ma'am, it is not like that.  It is not as you think Ma'am.
	I understand why you think the way that you do.  As I have said, we were going to the station bar in town.  On our way to the station bar, we saw that the target that may be less problematic, the reason why on our way to the station bar, we decided to rather attack Highgate Hotel, was that when we were given the orders, no date was given as to on such and such a date you must do this.  On this one, you must do this.
	On the other, you must do this.  We are the ones who decide as we have been given these targets we must hit, let us choose on what day we must hit, on which day we will hit the next, that is how it goes.
	As the Bahai Church, you see, when they were given the instruction, I was not there but I think the reason that led to them not, when they met the deceased, your husband, when he was painting the grill of the door, not shooting him dead when he was there, or wait for them when they finished worshipping and then shoot at them, I think it is because they were told how they must go about doing what they had to do.
	Of course I was not there when they were given the orders.

DINA ANVARI: I am sorry, with all due respect, it seems like your hands has never gotten dirty throughout this whole thing, anywhere.  There is a question that - did you stop to think, I mean you proclaim you are freeing the Africans - did you stop at any point to think about the children that were doomed to witness what you were doing, this, at that point, standing there, watching you?
	Did it never occur to you why is it the children who were so afraid, instead of coming to you and asking shelter from you, they ran behind Chamaam's feet and stood there, worrying or trying to hide themselves behind him, rather than you if you were the friends and they were the enemy, why did they trust them more than they trust you?  Didn't it occur to you that there is something here that you should not be doing?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Ma'am, I don't want to lie to you or try to paint myself positively in front of you, but I heard you when you said it is clear that my hands were clean.  I will not contest what you say, but I don't want to pretend that I am guiltless or because of what you are said, I then must hold on to that.
	All of us, all five of us were there.  There is no one who does not have blood on his hands.  I was the one who searched those people in church, the deceased, myself, who was searching them.
	I took their money, I am the one who took their car keys and passed them on to the next one who was our driver.  I don't want to agree that my hands are clean after having taken their money without their permission.
	After I as part of those people, in fact I was part of those people, and I had not tried to stop them doing what they were doing.
	Ma'am, what happened in the Church, I don't want to lie and say at that time I had thought about children here, who may have seen very tragic things or old people who may have seen terrible scenes, I don't want to lie to you.
	You see, at that time I was a soldier Ma'am, and as a soldier I was at war and fighting.  I did not have time to think or to think for or about as to what I do to this one, what is the next of kin of, his next of kin going to feel about it, or those who are on the scene, how they see it.
	I don't want to lie to you, because I am in front of you now and you are asking me these questions.  I will be lying to you and me, I will be lying to myself.

DINA ANVARI: I mentioned to Mr Chairman that I have only two questions, so I am going to get only one left.
	Let me tell you, if you were the one who took the money and the car keys, then you must have been the one who slapped Chamaam in the face with the little money that you could get from him, I suppose, I don't know why you would slap him on the face if you were just a soldier.
	I mean, do you expect me to believe that you had no hatred and you were just following orders?  I simply, I don't know, I must say I don't know, you have come in front of the Amnesty Commission and you have asked them to basically give you forgiveness for what has happened.
	If they believe what you say, then that means some other people were involved, you get your amnesty and well, the truth has not come out yet.  We still don't know why this thing happened.  You will get your amnesty and you walk.  If they don't believe what you said, that means that there weren't any people behind it, and it was just you and your group, which again nothing has come out as a truth, as why.  I want to put this to the Commission and to you to please, somehow, come up with the answer why?  
	There are thousands of letters in our files from all around the world, people who wanted to know why, they cried with us.  The newspaper clippings of all around the world, who put this incident on and talked about it, and they all wanted to know why?  We have tapes of news spots on TV in the United States that the person who is giving the news says, why?  We need to know what objective was received from this act by you, by your unit, by your commandment, by your organisation and whoever else is in responsible for this act.  We need to know why.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You will be given an opportunity both of you, if you wish to address further remarks to us.  Thank you for having participated, and I think the time has now come that we must take the adjournment.  Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, thank you, yes, there is just one other matter.  Ms Williams, the daughter of Mr and Mrs Williams, the sister of the deceased indicated that she just wanted to ask one question.   It may be opportune before we adjourn, just to have that one question and put that behind us.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, may I indicate that the applicant wishes to answer the why.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.