Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR PRINSLOO: Now, Mr Hani had support on the ground from the young people and radical people, would that be a correct assumption?

JEREMY CRONIN: He had very wide-ranging support, from old people, from young people, from White people - although not so many, and from Black people, from rural people and urban people - he had a very, very wide-ranging support.

MR PRINSLOO: But in the majority Mr Cronin, who supported Mr Hani?

MR PRINSLOO: Well, I think the poles suggested that he was very widely supported by Black people in our country, working people, rural people, poor people.

MR PRINSLOO: Would that - when you say Black people, was that young people or elderly people or what?

JEREMY CRONIN: As far as I know - although the life expectancy of Black people in country is much lower than White people, it would also have included ageing Black people.

MR PRINSLOO: And the assumption that radical people supported Mr Hani by and large?

JEREMY CRONIN: Well, it depends what you would mean by radicalism, certainly people who were in favour of massive transformation in our country, who saw the struggle in our country as not just replacing Black faces with White faces but saw the struggle as one for thorough going transformation in our country, including supplying water to poor rural communities from which Chris Hani had emerged, if that's what you mean by radical then certainly, he was supported by that kind of constituency.

MR PRINSLOO: Well, people that were not in favour of a negotiated settlement, - let's put it that way, that supported Mr Hani?

JEREMY CRONIN: Well, those who were sceptical about the armed struggle - the suspension of the armed struggle in our country, would not fail to note that Chris Hani had had a very important and prestigious armed struggle career from the late '60s and through the '70's and '80's and therefore certainly had a credibility with those who thought that we should go back to the armed struggle because he could speak as someone who had fought that armed struggle.
	And what he'd said is: "Don't romanticise the armed struggle, the armed is a tough business, it's not a decision to be taken lightly and we are now on a political and negotiations track" - yes, certainly he was able to reach that kind of constituency more effectively than many of us could have.

MR PRINSLOO: As I understood your evidence Mr Cronin, it was that Mr Hani attempted to persuade the people to rather follow a negotiated settlement as opposed to a revolutionary one or otherwise.

JEREMY CRONIN: He tried to and by and large succeeded in doing this, yes.  So he was able successfully to carry the mass constituency that the ANC enjoyed, into this path but it was political work that he had to do, it was against people's inclinations often and in the face of their scepticism but that was certainly what he was doing, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: That's the point I want to make Mr Cronin, that was his political work and he was at that stage - according to your version, trying to persuade the people.

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage he didn't have that support and that's why I'm asking you, did the radical people support him because you're saying  at that stage those people were still sceptical as to a negotiated settlement?

JEREMY CRONIN: They were sceptical about a negotiated settlement and for good reason, they were suffering - they were getting killed in violence, in low intensity conflict, so they were sceptical about the path but they trusted Chris Hani and turned to him and looked to him for guidance and leadership.
	And because he was tireless in doing this work, by and large he was able to succeed in persuading them.  I'm sure there were cases of people who said: "He's sold out or his forgotten", but by and large he was very, very widely respected and was therefore able - as I say in the face of people's reluctance, to accept this - he was able to persuade people.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Cronin, you said it was widely publicised in the media with regard to Mr Hani's position in MK, is that correct?

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: To what media are you referring to?

JEREMY CRONIN: Well, I'm referring certainly to the print media - the major dailies all covered the SACP Congress, it was open congress and it was the first legal congress that we'd had for 41 years, so there was quite a lot of local and indeed, international attention on this congress - I remember newspapers ranging in political opinion from The Citizen to The Star, covering this kind of issue.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you refer to any particular newspaper coverage with regard to this - The Citizen for instance, that carried such a coverage?

JEREMY CRONIN: Mr Prinsloo, we can dig up that information, I don't have it in front of me but I certainly have a distinct recollection of there being public coverage of this matter.  And as I say, the reason why I remember it is because people said: "Chris Hani seems to have moved out of the fast lane by accepting this election as General Secretary to the Communist Party", so there was quite a lot of editorial comment as well on the matter.

MR PRINSLOO: I'm asking this Mr Cronin, because you said earlier when you were asked by Mr Bizos - when you were led in chief, with regard to the President's Counsel, you said you didn't follow that and that's why the media is important as to people seem read selectively - particular people support a particular view and will read certain newspapers, that's why it's important how it was publicised.

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes, if I was planning to assassinate someone one, I would certainly - if I was planning to blow up the President's Council - let's say, I would certainly be following very closely - (1) whether - information in the press media, whether it was still in existence of not, it's elementary.  And therefore if my preoccupation was leaders whom I regarded as enemies of the volk or enemies of my political cause, I would certainly be looking at them very closely.
	My attitude towards the President's - I mean, I was neither planning to - I wasn't planning to assassinate or blow up anyone but the political relevance of the President's Council at the time struck me as being of pretty low importance.  And indeed, I think one of the applicants also seemed to have a similar regard, he seemed to say most of the time: "doodling" in the President's Council and drawing up "hit-lists" while he was sitting there, so his attitude towards the President's Council seems to be pretty close to mine.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Cronin, you've heard the evidence as to what the perceptions of certain people are?

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And what they perceived.

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And that's why I put to you that those people that read the newspapers with regard to certain events which you referred to what Mr Hani's function was in certain areas, did not necessarily follow that they read that information.

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes, I accept that they may well not have read the information but I mean, that tells us what kind of people they are and how serious they were in their political motivation and how serious their politics was but I accept that it is possible that they acted out of a high degree of ignorance, in fact it's almost certain that they acted out a high degree of ignorance.

MR PRINSLOO: Just a moment please Mr Chairman.
	Mr Bizos, - beg your pardon, Mr Cronin - I beg your pardon Mr Bizos ...[intervention]

JEREMY CRONIN: It's me that you should be apologising to.

MR PRINSLOO: R5 at page 42 in the John Robby show ...[intervention]

JEREMY CRONIN: Sorry, I missed the reference.

MR PRINSLOO: Page 42.

JEREMY CRONIN: 42 of?

MR PRINSLOO: R5, the last paragraph and the third line from the bottom
"I've been and still am a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, I have not resigned from Umkhonto weSizwe, nor from the ANC and I still play an active part in both organisations"