Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-28

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Sir let me explain it in this way.  Will you please look at my application again.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I know it.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: It's written in Afrikaans.  What I can explain to you I have a serious problem about Afrikaans, I can show you even in that document why this application has been written in such a way and how did I understood it until I met one of the Boers whom I request to help me with something as this was his language.  There were some certain problems, I didn't know exactly the way things have been done I did encounter some problems.  Let me explain Sir, if you look on page 3, no.4.  At school I did Afrikaans as my second language, where I have written (...indistinct) Sir, there is some exceptions in that case.  This application requests me so many things like F and others I have encountered some problems in this case.  I realised it later what was still expected out of me and the paper and the application have already been sent.  I have a serious problem about Afrikaans.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Right.  Let's move to your annexure that was - did you write this annexure, these seven handwritten pages?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Right.  Now that is written in English not so, which you understood very well not so?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Here and there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But you wrote it in English not so?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now why didn't you in your annexure consisting of seven pages disclose in your annexure as to what happened?  There is nothing about the incident, absolutely nothing.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I thought that in order for a person to be called at the amnesty of the Commission this is where the person is supposed to reveal everything that has happened.  That is why I didn't take any initiative to write exactly what has happened on that day, at what time, where.  I thought that everything will be requested when we are here at the Commission.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now why did you refer this Committee to page 2 and paragraph 9?  Why did you specifically single out those pages?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: It's because Sir, I have realised that there was a mistake in these things here.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What mistake has happened here?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: The mistake is that Sir on page 2.9, 1-3 in that case I didn't explain as I have already been explaining this morning to you what I was supposed to do, so I do appeal to the Commission about those mistakes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So you know and you knew what was supposed to be said under paragraph 9. I, II, III and IV?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I knew that later on when I looked at another paper which was written in English and my own document have already been sent and I could realise that I was supposed to write some certain things of which I didn't include in my paper.  Just have a look in 9A, that is a lengthy, lengthy issue, even if you had to go through it, it is very complicated.  Really I can't understand it personally.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified that at the time when this offence was, or the acts were perpetrated you were about to defect from the ANC, why did you defect from the ANC?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: What I would explain is this. Everyone has eyes and is able to see.  I found out that the way ANC is doing its political work it seems it will never liberate the oppressed masses because they said they were going to engage themselves in negotiations with the oppressor and then I found out that it was important that I should look the other way.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You further testified as you were led by my learned friend about a meeting in your house, you mentioned certain points that were to be dealt with by your unit commander, and the third one, the third one says, "to kill if there is necessity to do so", then you  repeated that in Sotho you say, "to kill if it's necessary".  Will I be correct to say that it meant, if you come to a situation, to launch an attack or to carry out an operation and the situation changes and becomes volatile and offensive towards you then the killing can take place, is that correct?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Mmmm.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now can you explain to this Committee as to any incident at Mrs Smith's place that caused you to kill?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay.  What I would say Sir is this.  In a war situation when there is a fight there are reasons which you need to fight against or what type of war you are engaged in then you need to use these logistics.  What I would say that the war we were fighting or engaging ourselves in it was a guerilla warfare.  When we hit here Whites would concentrate on a particular point and we are at some other point attacking, which means it's a hit and run strategy.  That is to say there are factors which need to be considered.  That is why we were explaining it has a two-pronged approach.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I think once again you are digressing.  The question that has been put to you is, just listen to me until I have finished the question, right at the time whilst you were there at the house of the Smith family, what caused you to kill?  Why did you kill Mr Smith?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Because I was told to, I was ordered to. Order is an order no matter how bitter or sour it is.  You don't have to argue the order, you will have to comply with the order.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mohapi that is not the evidence you have given us.  I think Mr Mpshe has actually quoted you to some extent, verbatim.  You said,
"The operation was intended to disarm, to fund-raise...."
and you then went on to qualify the operation further, "to kill if there is a necessity to do so".

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I have tried actually to take down what you said, verbatim.  Now what he wants from you is to explain what caused you to kill on that day because your instructions were to kill if it was necessary to do so?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words when you went there, four of you, nothing happened, there was no attack on you, there was no danger that you were confronted with and yet you killed.  Now what was the reason for that?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I would answer, I will try to answer all the questions ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mohapi let me again try and assist you, it is just one question.

CHAIRPERSON: It is in a different fashion ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is there anything which caused you to kill?  That's the question.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is why I am trying to explain that, according to the Mr Chairperson it seems there was no danger or we were not in danger for us to kill, that is why I said at that time when we were there it was necessary that that should happen.

CHAIRPERSON: What made it necessary?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: To show that - that's why I said it was necessary for you to understand me further until I have finished and what has influenced the situation that it should be that way.  That is why I need to explain that the situation that has forced us to do that is because we applied a tactic, we applied this tactic that there is nothing we need to talk to this person.  What would happen to him is that he should be killed.  For us at that time it was necessary that he should die, at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I hear you Mr Mohapi, but what I want from you and this is what has been canvassed to you by the three Committee members, I want the things that made it necessary, those things or occurrences that made it necessary for you to kill him.  That's all what I am looking for.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Are you talking about occurrences or examples?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will repeat my English, events or occurrences that made it necessary for you to kill.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: What I would say is that the way we saw the situation it was necessary that we should kill.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Please give us this situation, what kind of situation was that?