Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-16

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, he was trained, he was more trained than myself.  He was trained by the whites in South Africa.

DR TSOTSI: Where was he trained?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: I'm not sure whether in the South African Defence Force or in the South African Police, I'm not sure.  Nozulu didn't want to work with them.  They wanted to train him because they could see that he was intelligent, they wanted to use him.  He then realised that they were using him so he didn't want to work or co-operate with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	You spoke about Tony and you were referring to Mr Makhura, am I correct?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, I was referring to Mr Makhura, Steven.

MR SIBANYONI: And you also spoke about Johannes who jumped off the car, who is Johannes?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: It was Nxala, Johannes Nxala, Johannes ...(indistinct) Nxala.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Tshokolo Joseph Mokoena?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: I knew him when we were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you only meet him after your arrest?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, we met when we were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: And the fourth applicant, Fusi Simon Mofokeng?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: I know him because we went to his place.  I saw him there to his home.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the first time you saw him?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That was on the same day, the 2nd of April?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Thabo Motaung?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: I don't know Thabo, I saw him in the identification parade in Kroonstad.  That was the first time I saw him.  I then saw him again in Court.

CHAIRPERSON: He in the Court's case, what I can gather from having read some of the record and the Judgment in particular, I mean from reading the Judgment, is that he testified in the trial that you and the other people that you were with had gone specifically to the Bethlehem area to commit a robbery on a farm owned by a person by the name of Osman because it was known by Mokoena that there was cash in a safe on the farm and that the whole thing was a robbing expedition.  What do you say to that evidence of Thabo Motaung?  ...(end of tape)

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: ...(inaudible) deny that, Chairperson.  I don't know Thabo.  The first time I saw him was in the identification parade in Kroonstad and the second time was in Court.  He was used.  I would like to explain that.  I don't know whether I should continue explaining that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Thabo was used.  After a while they found that he was used because he did not know what he was saying.  All he was saying was a lie.  And I was old to go for - I was not there - we were not there to rob, we had weapons so that we can fight.  So that is a lie what he said.
	He went to Fusi Mofokeng in Kroonstad.  We received a letter stating that he visited Fuzi Mofokeng in Kroonstad in jail when we were arrested.  If I'm not mistaken I think it was in 1995 or 1996, if I'm not mistaken.  When Thabo went to Fuzi he said that he was asking for forgiveness because he was promised something.  
	He told Fusi that he lied in Court and he was asking for forgiveness and he was going to try to help us to get out of jail and then Fusi asked him how he would do that.  He then said he made certain affidavits but I don't know to which office.  He went to the Magistrate in Kroonstad.  He made a confession statement about our case.  The Magistrate said that he should go to the members of the ANC, those that were said to have planned this affidavit.  The lawyer of the ANC had to make an affidavit and send that affidavit to him as a Magistrate and the Magistrate would sign and stamp it and send it to the Justice Department.
	So Chairperson, what I'm trying to say is that I'm aware of this but it is not true, it is a lie and there is evidence about that.  And on the 25th of August George Ndlosi was working for the TRC in Johannesburg.  I told him about this.  I was together with Clement Ndabeni.  We told him about what happened before and we didn't know exactly what was the end of this.  George Ndlosi said they would follow this case because I said to my co-accused it is better to hide this boy because if the police were aware that he was giving out such an information they would take him out of the way.
	Then Fusi Mofokeng told me that he was out of the way.  So I didn't know about this robbery.  Thabo just told a lie about this but he didn't straight to me.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that vehicle in which you and your companions were driving in when it stopped at the place where you later heard the shooting taking place, was the bonnet of that vehicle ever opened in your presence?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, the bonnet of the car would be opened by the owner of the car but it had a problem with the brakes.  I could say that the brake fluid had a problem.  There was a pipe there that had a problem.  I used to use that car.  So what I'm trying to say is that I know that the bonnet would be opened.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see it being opened at the place that you stopped when you and Mr Makhura and Nxala left to walk back to Bethlehem, was it opened there or not, that you saw with your own eyes.

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: I didn't see it then but I knew that the car had a problem.  I didn't notice whether it was opened or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR MHLABA: None, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions arising?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman, just one.
	Mr Fokazi, when you left that motor vehicle, whom in your group did you leave behind?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: That motor vehicle, the people who were left there, there were five people, it was Sebenzile, Nozulu was the second one, Mac Gregor the third one, Thozamile Ndabeni, the driver and Joe.  It was Joe Nozulu, Sebenzile, Mac Gregor and Thozamile Ndabeni, the driver.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Fokazi, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED