Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ncamazana, can you look at photograph D1, that is the first photograph.  I just simply want to - for your confirmation, do you agree that that depicts the Da Gama factory, the road?  If you look at point A there's a white vehicle there, my information is that was the Honda vehicle that you were driving or that you had been using.

CHAIRPERSON: That appears on the index to the photographs.

MR PRIOR: Are you able to orientate yourself as to
that photograph?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I can see the car there to which the arrow refers with A and there's a B also.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.  Will you turn to photograph D5, which I think is a better one.  That is the photograph where you see the factory on your lefthand side and there seems to be a railway line on the right side of the photograph, righthand side.  Can you tell the Committee, in which direction did you flee, in other words ...[intervention]

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The way I used, I crossed the railway line.

MR PRIOR: And did you leave TNT and Kid behind in the vehicle when you left the scene or did they leave the vehicle with you?  In other words, in the direction of the railway line?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is they who left us in the car, three of us.  I did not see where they ran to.

MR PRIOR: I see.
	Mr Chairman, I don't wish to pursue the Da Gama matter any further, I want to come back just briefly to the Bahai matter.  I've supplied the Committee and the various representatives with an extract of the criminal record before Mr Justice Liebenberg, from pages 1245 to 1248.
	Mr Ncamazana, I'm going to come back to that trial in East London ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Have you supplied copies to other ...[indistinct]

MR PRIOR: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: This will be Exhibit E.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May I take the opportunity to supply a copy to the translators.
	And this was the evidence given by Mr Mbambo, your co-applicant.
	Mr Chairman, with the Committee's indulgence, I wish to refer to at least three passages in that extract.
	At page 1245 the evidence read as follows or reads as follows, Mbambo said
"We went to the house of Jimmy Jones"
and he said
"Jimmy Jones is Xolile Tjabane"
then at line 10 the questions was asked
"Did they speak to him"?
		"Yes, they spoke to him"
		"And what did they say to him"? -
the answer was
"They briefed him about what happened there at
Mdantsane and they told him also about me"
Do you remember that evidence?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot lie to you, I do not know.

MR PRIOR: He was then asked
"Is Jimmy Jones a member of the PAC"?
		"Yes, I heard him say that he is a member"
...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't asked, this is not his evidence.

MR PRIOR: I understand Mr Chairman.  He was a co ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You put to him "You were then asked".

MR PRIOR: No, I'm referring to the passage Mr Chairman.  The question - or should I really put the sense of what was said in the extract?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm merely saying what you put to him was "You were then asked" and you were starting to read.  It was Mbambo who was then asked.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, if I put that to the witness then that was obviously incorrect.  I'm referring to what Mbambo said at his trial.  I do apologise Mr Chairman.
"Jimmy Jones said that he was a field commander of APLA"
Can you recall that evidence being given by Mr Mbambo?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That's what he said.

MR PRIOR: The next question was asked of Mr Mbambo
"And you say that they told him about you, can you explain what you mean with that"?
the answer was then
"They told him about what happened at Mdantsane and then they told him about my presence, why I'm amongst them, the reason behind it"
And at line 25 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What's his reply?  Does he remember that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The answer, his answer in Court or where perhaps?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember this being asked and said in Court?  You've told us so far that you didn't remember the first passages, that you did remember Jimmy Jones saying that he was field commander of APLA, now can you tell us whether you remember them telling you about what happened at Mdantsane and them telling him about your presence, why you were amongst them, the reason behind it.

MR LAX: Sorry, it's not him, he wasn't the one who was saying why he was amongst them.

CHAIRPERSON: This is what they said.

MR LAX: This is what Mbambo said.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[indistinct] Mbambo's evidence, he's saying what happened.  Do you remember Mbambo saying that at your trial and do you remember if it happened?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember that well.

MR LAX: Sorry, there are two questions, he's given one answer.  Let's just clarify that.
	You don't remember that it happened at the trial, that he said such things but did such things actually happen as far as you can remember?  In other words, when you went back to Mdantsane, at least to Jimmy Jones' place in Butterworth, did this conversation take place?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What we told him was what he had instructed him, us, that we must bring him along to Butterworth and we just told him that.  He is the person who said we must bring him along.

MR LAX: So in fact you don't agree with this evidence or the thrust of this evidence and the emphasis in which it is put here?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not agree with it.

MS GCABASHE: Can I just ask, has the witness had the opportunity to read this transcript?  I mean, are we asking him to recall just from what is being said to him now or has he had the opportunity to try and remember some of this?

MR PRIOR: He's being asked whether he recalls it being said at his trial.

MR LAX: Maybe we should just give him a minute to read through that transcript, see if he can refresh his memory and then we can really in a meaningful way ask these questions.

MR PRIOR: I'm in the Committee's hands, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please explain to the applicant that we are going to adjourn now to give him an opportunity to read the transcript which will refresh his memory of what took place at his trial.  He will then be asked questions, not only about what took place at the trial but as to whether he remembers what actually happened at the time when they reported back to Jimmy Jones.  We'll now adjourn for a few minutes.
	Could you let us know when he is ready?

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Collett, has your client had an opportunity of reading those papers?

MS COLLETT: That's correct Mr Chairman, he has.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I simply propose to put the extract to him and ask for his comment.  I don't propose to belabour any point.
	Mr Ncamazana, at page 1245 - I'm going to bring you back to sort of from the quotation from line 25.  Sorry let me just go back, at line 19
"They told him"
The evidence is referring to obviously Kid talking to Jimmy Jones
"They told him about what happened at Mdantsane and then they told him about my presence"
referring to Mbambo.
"why I am amongst them, the reason behind it"
And then the question was asked
"What did they say, who spoke to Jimmy Jones"? - "It
		was Kid"
Do you remember that being said at the trial?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot disagree if they say so but I cannot remember well.

MR PRIOR: The next portion is from line 25/26, the reply was or the answer was
"He said that they forced me to go along with them from my house"
That is Kid who is talking about Mbambo.
"because they thought I'm of the view to inform people about them"
Do you remember that being said?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What I can answer, all that is written on this paper I cannot disagree with that despite me not having any knowledge about it.

MR PRIOR: That seems to make sense, that you'd have taken Mr Mbambo who wasn't a member of APLA at that stage, that you would have taken him along.