Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: I do have a family. They are staying in Kroonstad.My in-laws are also there. I have five children with the deceased. It's threeboys as well as two girls. The eldest of them had to leave school because ofthe lack of funds after his father had died. I wanted him to help me as faras finances were concerned, because my in-laws are not helping me in any way.When my husband died my in-laws turned against me, they chased me. He chasedme together with my children. I never had a place to stay.

UNKNOWN: It is fine, Mrs Tipe. You can take your time. This is quitea painful experiences. We know how you feel, especially with the lack of supportfrom your in-laws. (Pause)

WITNESS: Until now I am with the children. The eldestone is trying to look for work. The others are attending school. The girl isdoing standard seven and the boy is doing standard 10. I am still in hardshipsbecause I can't further their education.

UNKNOWN: I do understand, Mrs Tipe. When you are ready you can tellus more about what happened up until your husband met with his untimely death.--- My husband went on a Friday. He had knocked off at half past four from work. He went to a shebeen. When he came back he got into my neighbour'shouse, Mr Ramahale. When he was still in there - I believe it was at about 12,I was already asleep with the children - we heard some noise outside. Afterthat noise - we heard the noise, but I couldn't go outside to investigate whatwas happening. Just after some time we were awoken by Mr Tsatsi. He woke meup. I asked him what was happening. I woke the children up to accompany me toinvestigate as to what was happening. When we got there we got a Three MillionGang. I saw him. He had been attacked by the Three Million Gang. When I triedto turn him the blood spurted on my face. I asked him what was happening buthe could not answer me. He was bleeding profusely. I tried to shake him to wakehim up. There was nobody to help me there. I was all by myself. I called ontomy children to come and help me. At that time he started kicking violently.Thereafter we decided to phone the police to come and take him. They took himto the hospital as he was kicking and gasping for breath. When we got to thehospital we were told that he had been stabbed several times and he had beenfatally wounded.

UNKNOWN: I can hear, Mrs Tipe, this is a very traumatic experience.--- That was the end. I struggled to get funds to bury him. Now I am left withthe children and we are destitute.

UNKNOWN: Are you through, Mrs Tipe?

WITNESS: Yes, I am through.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Mrs Tipe. Let's just go back a littlebit to Mr Tipe. How old was he when he died?

WITNESS: I am not sure how old he was,but I have got his birth certificate. It's in my handbag. Can you please show us after some time. I heard you sayingyou were chased by the in-laws and you were evicted. Where are you staying now?--- I am staying at No 389. I am leasing the property.

UNKNOWN: I heard you talking about Three Million Gang. Can you pleasejust tell us briefly what is Three Million, because I am familiar with the name?Can you just please tell us briefly what sort of people were the Three Million?What were they doing?

WITNESS: It was a group of people who were violating the community.It was a group of hooligans who were attacking people, and they got my husbandand stabbed him to death.

UNKNOWN: What did the police do to them?

WITNESS: A that time the policewere not present. They only came later on when the group had run away, whenthey were called to come and take Tipe where he had fallen. He was taken bya policeman by the name of Ndundu Nkire. He took him to hospital. The ThreeMillion Gang wasn't there any more.

UNKNOWN: I do understand. According to your knowledge you said theywere violating people, attacking them. What were the police doing about this?--- The police were not there. They never came. They stabbed my husband untilthey finished him off and left. The police only came to fetch my husband becausewe phoned them.

UNKNOWN: At the time of your husband's death do you know if he was affiliatedto nay political organisation?

WITNESS: No. No, he didn't belong to any politicalgroup.

UNKNOWN: On that particular night when this happened you told us thatit was 12. Was it 12 midnight?

WITNESS: Yes, it was 12 midnight.

UNKNOWN: Are there any events that took place in the location that indicate that there was some sort of violence before thisevent took place?

WITNESS: No. When these people came as a group they got into myneighbour's house. They went straight to my neighbour's house. That's wherethey started attacking my husband, and they left thereafter.

UNKNOWN: It seems as if you went to court.

WITNESS: Yes, a few weeks afterhe had been buried I was called to room No 8 in court, but I did not understandas to whether it was attorneys who called me. They asked me whether I knew thepeople who had killed him. I told them that I didn't know anything because Iwas asleep. When I went there to the scene the people had already fled. Theyleft me alone until today. There were no further investigation whatsoever.

UNKNOWN: Which court was this room No 8? Was it in Kroonstad?

WITNESS: Yes,it was in Kroonstad.

UNKNOWN: Did you get the death certificate?

WITNESS: No, I never got anything.They just called me and I came back.

UNKNOWN: You even buried him without having got the death certificate,or without knowing what had happened.

WITNESS: No, we never got anything.

UNKNOWN: Do you know or are you aware of any inquest that was done afteryour husband's death?

WITNESS: No, I never got any letter.

UNKNOWN: Are you working, Mrs Tipe?

WITNESS: I am not working. I am a sicklyperson. I got violently ill after my husband's death. I am also very sick. Iget these terrible headaches. I am sickly.

UNKNOWN: How old are you now?

WITNESS: I am not getting any pension.

UNKNOWN: Do you qualify for pension?

WITNESS: No, I don't. I am still very young. I am 49.

UNKNOWN: You lost your husband at a very early age. Who is helping youfinancially to further your children's education?

WITNESS: I am being helped by myparents, who are in Hennenman. At some stage I was helped by the welfare officers.I am only getting money for the seven-year-old because she's the youngest. Theother one is 17, so I am no longer getting anything.

UNKNOWN: I do understand that you are going through so much pain. Youtold us that your life, as well as your health, have deteriorated. Are you ableor can you afford to see a doctor?

WITNESS: Yes, I went to see a doctor in Kroonstadtwice. He told me that I was having a heart problem, as well as a problem withvessels.

UNKNOWN: Did he ever say you've got high blood?

WITNESS: No, he never saidanything about high blood.

UNKNOWN: I do understand. We'll try to help you in any which way wecan if you are in need, or you need to see doctors and get medical attention.You said your eldest son left school after your husband's death, but you saidhe is not working.

WITNESS: No, he is not working, but he went to Henny to work there.

UNKNOWN: When last did you see him?

WITNESS: He left his job last year inFebruary. That's when ... (incomplete - end of Side B, Tape 10)

UNKNOWN: We cannot promise that we would do that for you because wedo not have the necessary authority, but we can pass our recommendations tothe President, who in turn will see what to do.

MR LAX: Mrs Tipe, just one little aspect I'd like totry and clear up if you can maybe help us. You mentioned the nameof a Mr Tsatsi, who came and knocked on your door and told you about what hadhappened to your husband, and called you to come. Who is Mr Tsatsi?

WITNESS: Hissurname is Lusiya. He is our neighbour.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... your neighbour.

WITNESS: Yes, he is our neighbour.