Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

INTERPRETER: Please give the interpretation a break.  Mr Masina must switch on channel 4 for Zulu, not 3.  The interpretation is ready, you may proceed, thank you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you.
	When did you leave the country?

JABU OBET MASINA: I left in December 1977.  I don't recall the precise date but it was in December 1977.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Is it correct that you joined the ANC and underwent basic military training at the Funda Camp in Angola?

JABU OBET MASINA: That is correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And thereafter you were deployed in Swaziland?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What were your duties in Swaziland, just very briefly as a background for the Committee.

JABU OBET MASINA: In Swaziland I was assisting our other comrades who were supposed to come back to South Africa and those who were to leave South Africa to go to Angola and so forth.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Could I summarise it by saying that you were involved in the infiltration of cadres into the country?

JABU OBET MASINA: That is correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And the facilitation of those who wanted to leave the country to join the ANC, to facilitate their path?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now in 1984 the Komati Accord was signed.

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: As a result of which you were deported to Mozambique?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you receive any further military training?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, I got further military training.  It was called general training and it lasted nine months, and thereafter I had to specialise in a communication course.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I indicated at the beginning of your evidence when you were called to give evidence, that you were the commander of the unit responsible for the death of Brigadier Molope, how did you come to be the commander of that unit?  Could you explain that to the Committee?

JABU OBET MASINA: In 1985 I was called by the late comrade Chris Hani and he told me that he wants me to head unit that was to assassinate and I had to find people that will work with me.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you explain to the Committee the mandate that was given to you, who were you to assassinate?

JABU OBET MASINA: In reality Hani did not give us any list of people to be assassinated, he just said that we should concentrate on sell-outs and the police informers.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Were any other people or categories of people identified for purposes of assassination or elimination?

JABU OBET MASINA: Some of the people were policemen because he said that they were our enemies as well, but he did not say all policemen would be our victims or targets but there are some policemen who are bringing order in the country, but those who were actually enemies of the people had to be assassinated.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Who were the people that you recruited for the unit?

JABU OBET MASINA: I recruited these gentlemen who are behind me.  It was Masangonieu Putsani and Joseph Makhura and the other one, Justice who left us, who just disappeared in South Africa.  We don't know what actually happened to him.  Also there is another one called Rufus who is late.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Justice Mpesani, what was his operational name?

JABU OBET MASINA: It was Mandla Shezi.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you tell the Committee how you came to be in South Africa during 1986?

JABU OBET MASINA: Mr and Masango came from Zambia and we crossed via a valley into Botswana and we entered South Africa.  We did not go through the Ramatxlabama Border Gate officially, we just jumped the fence at the  border.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What was the purpose of your and Mr Masango's infiltration into the country?

JABU OBET MASINA: We had to come and further the ANC duties that Chris had instructed us to.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And in which areas were you based?

JABU OBET MASINA: We were based in Winterveld and Mamelodi, but we had no stable base.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If I understand you correctly, you and Mr Masango were infiltrated into the country first?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And was it for purposes of paving the way for the remaining members of your unit?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir, because some of our unit members were arrested in Botswana and they were sent back.  Therefore myself and Masango, Chris Hani told us that we should infiltrate and prepare the bases because despite the fact that they were sent back they will still come.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You've applied for amnesty for the incident which is being heard today, that is the death of Brigadier Molope.

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you tell the Committee how it came to be that the Brigadier was identified as a target and how it came to be that he was eventually eliminated?

JABU OBET MASINA: There is a thing called Winterveld Massacre and we found out that Brigadier Molope is the one who issued the instruction that people should be killed in that massacre.
	The people were busy demonstrating against different things and through our investigations in the community we established that Brigadier Molope was the one who gave the instructions that these people should be shot, and eleven people died in that incident.

MR VAN DEN BERG: May I interrupt you Masina?  We're in a situation where we're not working from a written statement and the Members of the Committee have to write down what you are saying, so if you'll slow down a little bit, the detail that you are giving now is important.

JABU OBET MASINA: Thank you Sir, I will.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You advised the Committee that you had identified Brigadier Molope as a result of reports in the community of his involvement in what you've called: "The Winterveld Massacre".

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you recall the date of that incident, the Winterveld Massacre?

JABU OBET MASINA: No, Sir, I don't recall.  It happened quite a while ago, but I think it appeared in the media, everybody is aware of it, it appeared then.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in 1986 when you were in South Africa or was it prior to your infiltration?

JABU OBET MASINA: It happened in 1988 just before we arrived.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say a number of people were killed in that incident?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct, eleven people died, if I recall clearly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Was it purely on the basis of that incident that you identified Molope as a target?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.  Also the community showed that Brigadier Molope was their enemy and they were complaining about him, that he was a bad element and another policeman by the name of Mokobojane.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you say another policeman by the name of Mokobojane.  Was he criticised as being an enemy of the people or was he a person who criticised Brigadier Molope?  I didn't quite understand you.

JABU OBET MASINA: The community told us that Molope and Mokobojane are bad people, they are amongst those policemen who are bad elements in the community.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by the community, when you say: "the community told you"?

JABU OBET MASINA: I'm talking about the general public you come across,  Whenever you arrived at a place there will such talks about this person, he's very bad and he got people killed.  It was just a general discussion amongst the general public.  He and Molope were not on friendly terms with the community.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You've described these policemen as a bad element or bad people, what do you mean by that?

JABU OBET MASINA: They were bad because Molope issued an instruction that policemen should fire or shoot at people who were showing their dissatisfaction, and they died eventually.