Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, I left, I came back at half past three and then I reported to my captain and that was all.

MR STANDER: After you came, in other words after you got back to the office, did you have any further participation in the questioning of these people?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, I did not interrogate them.

MR STANDER: What time did you go off duty?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I left at 4 o'clock exactly because I had another appointment at half past four with an informer.

MR STANDER: And that group of people were still there when you went off duty?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I say, when I left they were still present.

MR STANDER: And that time when you returned from the informant, did you hear any screams from the people there?

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible] return Mr Chairman, because he hasn't given that evidence yet.

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible] do you recall that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think he's being asked about the 3H30 return.

MR VISSER: No, we passed that.  The question is now whether he - as I understand that question, he's gone now for his appointment with the informer at half past ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he didn't come back so he can't be asked later.

MR VISSER: Well, I don't know, he might have come back.

CHAIRPERSON: Go on.

MR STANDER: On your return at half past three that afternoon, did you participate in the further interrogation of these persons?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, I did not take part because I left the offices at 4 o'clock.  I had an appointment with my informer at half past four and it was a distance to walk.

MR STANDER: Between 3H30 and four, before you left, did you hear any screaming?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I said I did not hear any scream because I was busy with Captain du Plooy discussing what was on the table.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER
[No sound]

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.
	Now, Mr Kopi, we have been told that the people were arrested on the 6th of April 1986 were taken to Violent Street where they made frog jumps.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I don't dispute that but when I arrived there those people were in the kitchen.  The time when they were doing those frog jumps I was not present.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Kopi, how long did your interrogation with the first person last?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: It depends how far you agree on the discussion.  I would say plus minus 15 minutes.  If he doesn't co-operate or she doesn't co-operate, you leave and take another person.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] to speculate, you're being asked, on this particular morning, can you remember how long you spent with the first person?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Approximately 15 minutes.

ADV MEMANI: Do you recall what you asked this person about?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: There are questions I remember and there are those I don't remember.

ADV MEMANI: What did you ask him about, ask her about?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I said where was she going when she was arrested by the soldiers, I remember that well, then she said: "Going to Lesotho".  Then I asked her again: "What were you going to do"?, then she kept quiet. Then I said: "Why do you keep quiet when I ask you what you were going to do"?

ADV MEMANI: Was this person known to you?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: The mean the person whom I interrogated?  I didn't know them.

ADV MEMANI: And was du Plooy present when you were interrogating this persons?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: He was not present.  I forgot which white person I was with.  Du Plooy is the section head of the interrogation, he was not present there.

ADV MEMANI: Now, this person that you interrogated, did you have any file on her?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: It's a lady person.

ADV MEMANI: From what you can recall, did you have a file?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: If the person arrives, you take some pages then you write all his or her particulars, you write them down.  As I left to go and see my informer, I left those papers with du Plooy and said: "Put them, then I will come and give a report back when I return, about what I've done", so that person would go through those papers.

ADV MEMANI: But wouldn't your interview with this person - your interrogation with this person have lasted longer because you would have wanted to know about her background and so on?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: You write down her particulars, then you say: "Where were you schooling"?, then she would say: "Sigonelo", then you write down.  "What standard have you passed"?, you write down.  "When did you leave home when you were leaving - as you said you were going to Lesotho, to whom were you going"?  If she doesn't want to reply to that part you leave.  If she doesn't want to co-operate you - as I said, I hand an appointment with the informer and I was forced to leave and go and see that person and that is why I left those papers.

ADV MEMANI: What had you been doing in the morning before you were called back by du Plooy?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: May you please repeat your question.

ADV MEMANI: What had you been doing in the morning before you were called back by du Plooy?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: You mean the time I left or which time?

ADV MEMANI: ...[inaudible] that you left the office at 8 o'clock and at about 11 du Plooy radioed you back and I'm saying: "What had you been doing out there between 8 and 11?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I was going to do investigations.

ADV MEMANI: There were these people who arrived and du Plooy decided that you should be called back?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes, du Plooy called me and said he wants to see me.  I did not know why, I only knew when I arrived in his office.

ADV MEMANI: And did you then go to see the informer and come back?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes.  Do you speak of the first instance or the second instance?

ADV MEMANI: I'm speaking of the first instance when you left at about - after interrogating the first person.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes, I went and returned at half past three, then I went upstairs, I went to the toilet and that is when I saw that those people are still there.  I took those papers from my office and went to du Plooy to give him a report back.

ADV MEMANI: Do I understand your evidence correctly, to be that you interviewed only one person on that day?

CHAIRPERSON: That wasn't his evidence, he said he couldn't remember how many, he said: "One, two or even three".

ADV MEMANI: Now, how many people - for how long were you in the office?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I don't understand the direction of your question.

ADV MEMANI: You told us that you were called back at about 11 and then you started interrogating people and then a call from the informer came in.  Now, at about what time did the call from the informer come?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I'm not able to remember the time.  You see, when a person says that: "I want to see you", you must go and pick a car, then he would tell you which point you should meet him.  Maybe point A is far from point B.

ADV MEMANI: No, for how long were you with the informer?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I would say perhaps I arrived at 12 o'clock.  Our discussion would determine how much time.  At times it took an hour, at times three hours because at the end you've got to brief him what information you require from him.

ADV MEMANI: I'm speaking about this particular day.  Did you meet this person at about 12 o'clock, the informer?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: It might be passed 12.  He would phone you at 11 o'clock and say: "Let us meet at 12 o'clock or between 12 and half past 12".  You must be the first person to arrive at that point, that's how I arranged my appointments with him.

ADV MEMANI: Did the informer, on that particular day, phone at about 11 o'clock?