Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

MR LAX: You told us in your first bit of evidence, that you couldn't let them have your 9 mm Parabellum, your service issue, because if it was used in the fight, you would get into trouble, those were your precise words.
	You told us nothing about you having an HMC or anything like that, this is the first you are mentioning about that.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I explained that I had a personal firearm.

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect Mr Hlengwa, you didn't explain that at all.  You told us that you had a service pistol, a 9 mm Parabellum, that is what you told us.  You didn't say anything about it being your personal weapon.
	All right, in any event, so you had two.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MR LAX: And you bought the boxes of ammunition, did you, with your own money?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MR LAX: And you gave them boxes of ammunition, 9 mm ammunition?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MR LAX: Well, then the question is if you had your own personal firearm, why didn't you use it for the protection of your own home?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I did not stay at home therefore in most instances when these attacks were carried out, I would not be home.
	Then there would be no one to protect my family in that case.  Then these people, these boys would be the ones responsible for protecting the entire community.  If for instance I was at home, I would also guard at night, but in my absence, these were the people who were looking after my family.
	Just to go a little further, at one time when I was at home, there was an attack.  A kombi approached and the people who were on guard on that night, thought this kombi was carrying attackers and when it stopped, they realised that it was carrying employees and not attackers.
	When this kombi left the police arrived.  Because of the number of people that were on the road at the time, the police did not know what was going on.  At the time the police used to shoot at youths on the street, at any time.
	These boys would come to me and ask for advice on what they should do because the police always shoot at them, and I would advise them not to run away when the police approached, and they should behave themselves.
	I was trying to negotiate between these two parties.  At one point, these boys came back to report to me and they told me that they had not run away and the police had not shot at them, because of that.
	But when the incident of this kombi occurred, the police didn't know what was going on, there was a lot of people on the street.  I explained to the police just what had gone on.  At that time I was in an overall, I was not in my police uniform.

MR LAX: Just get to the point Mr Hlengwa, really you are telling us a whole lot of nonsense now, get to the point.  The question is a simple one, did you use your firearm to defend your house or not?
	You are telling us about a whole long story about a kombi and this and that, it has nothing to do with that.  Just answer me yes or no, did you ever use your firearm to defend your home?  Yes or no?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No.

MR LAX: Did you ever report the attacks on your home, to your fellow policemen and say my home is being attacked by people?  Did you ever report it?  Yes or no, don't give me a long story, just give me a yes or no?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, I would discuss this matter at work.

MR LAX: No, I am not asking whether you discussed it at work, I said did you report it to kwaMashu police station?
	In other words, my house has been attacked, open a case of malicious injury to property or discharging of a firearm in public.  You are a policeman, did you ever do that?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No.

MR LAX: Why not?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: The community will report to the police that they were being attacked.

MR LAX: I am asking you, not the community, you, you are a policeman, you work in that police station.  Why didn't you report an attack on your own home, to your own police station?  In other words we are not talking about someone else in the community who might be perceived as a threat, we are talking about one of your own people, why didn't you report it to your own members?
	It is a simple question, just a quick answer, not a long story now please.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I did not report it because it was common knowledge that attacks took place.  The police were aware of those attacks and I knew that they were investigating those cases.
	Not only the case at my home, but all over the township.  There was no need for me to tell them again that we are being attacked, because they were aware that attacks were going on in the township, and that was what they were investigating.  We would discuss this at work, it was common knowledge at the police station.

MR LAX: Where were you trained as a policeman?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I was trained at aMatikulu.

MR LAX: At the camp at aMatikulu?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MR LAX: Were you trained as a Special Constable first or were you trained as a proper policeman?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: As a proper policeman.

MR LAX: You joined the kwaZulu police in, you said you started working as a policeman in 1986?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, I was a recruit in 1986.

MR LAX: Yes.  At your training at uMatikulu, what were you told about the UDF, about the ANC and other similar organisations?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Although that was not emphasised, there were members who used to talk in such a manner that you wouldn't realise that they were members of the IFP.

MR LAX: You haven't answered my question.  As part of your training, what were you told about the ANC and about the UDF and about all the other structures that were opposed to kwaZulu?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: There was nothing that we were told about those organisations directly.

MR LAX: So you weren't told anything about the organisations, you weren't told about the fight against communism?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No, I do not remember.

MR LAX: So you might have been told that, but you don't remember it now?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: As I mentioned before, I don't remember them saying that directly, but one would get it from other members that they were actually aligned to certain political organisations.

MR LAX: Right.  A large proportion of the people in the kwaZulu police were Inkatha members, is that not correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.  Yes, I would agree with that, yes.  Although I did not know just how far that membership went.

MR LAX: Well, at one point it was a criteria for becoming a member, in other words you couldn't become a member unless you were a member of Inkatha.
	Have you forgotten that?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I heard about that when I was in the Force.

MR LAX: Yes, so why were you so surprised when Marte told everybody that the kwaZulu police was Inkatha's police if you knew that already?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Because that which I had heard, was just something that was being discussed amongst ordinary members.  But it was different when the Commissioner actually uttered it.
	It carried a certain weight when he said it, because it was something I had not really concerned myself about earlier on.

MR LAX: I want to go to your planning meeting that you had, where you planned this operation.  Who was present at that meeting?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: This plan was had in the presence of myself, Mhluli and Dlamini at the police station.

MR LAX: Was Luthuli not present?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: He was not present when we first met to discuss it.

MR LAX: When did he become present?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: He arrived on the morning of the 23rd, when we were about to go to the scene of the crime.

MR LAX: You told us earlier in your evidence that Luthuli thought that you were after the money, he didn't know you were after the firearms.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is what I said.