Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-06

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, Honourable Member, yes.  The President was at great pains to ask us questions about the planning, about the getaway of cadres, about the facts of it.  Comrade Slovo largely reported to him but there were times when comrade Slovo was not in town, he may have been in another country and whenever the President visited Mozambique he would call me in if comrade Slovo was not there and he would then ask us to go through the planning with him.
	He was also extremely security conscious so we would not then, in the process of having a discussion, mention the target because he felt that there may have been listening devices etc., so we would then say a few words and scribble a few words on a piece of paper and then continue and in that way explain to him exactly what was happening and he would be at pains to ensure that all of the aspects had been taken care of.  
	And if he felt unhappy about anything he would raise it and direct us to say: "Go and pay attention to this, come back and report to me on aspects" etc.   He paid very close attention to this especially in the light of the mandate that the NEC had given him and the particular responsibility he carried in this regard.  He was at pains to ensure that things did not go wrong.

JUDGE PILLAY: Then one last issue, there was a decision to move the struggle to what was formally the white areas as it is termed.  There was also a small body of white people who could be regarded as anti-apartheid in those days, was that resource used?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.  The policy of the ANC was to embrace and bring into the ANC and into the struggle all those elements that were willing to participate inside of the struggle.  We had also comrades like Akino Hein Grosskopf for instance, who was drawn into the operations.  He carried out some of those operations.  There were various others, Marion Sparg for instance.  She, because of her being a white woman, was able to walk into various police stations and go and place charges.

JUDGE PILLAY: I can understand those two examples, I'm talking about those people who were less brave than that.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well all who came forward were drawn into the struggle.  There were also people amongst other communities who made it quite clear: "I do not want to get engaged in this but I'm prepared to do certain levels of work".
	Whatever people were prepared to do, people were given tasks according to their willingness to participate inside of the struggle.  If all they were willing to do is to take messages from one point to another, that is what they were given to do.  And with time we found that more and more people came forward.

JUDGE PILLAY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Trengove, do you have any questions arising?

MR TRENGOVE: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR TRENGOVE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pooe, do you have any questions arising from questions that were put by the panel?

MR POOE: Perhaps just one question Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ismail, of the incidents into which the Committee is presently inquiring and about which the Committee is to make a decision in due course, were there any which in your regard were aimed targets which were not legitimate targets?  And in that regard perhaps you could look at your Annexures A to D, which is an annexure to your statement.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I take it Mr Chairperson, that you are asking with regards to the specific operations listed in these annexures?

MR POOE: Indeed I am.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, all of these were deemed legitimate targets.  There was not doubt about any of these that we speak of here or that have been discussed in my main submission as Exhibit A.

MR POOE: As it please you Chairperson, that's all question I have.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR POOE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any questions arising?

MR VISSER: Just one, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ismail, when you were questioned by Mr Motata in regard to the Sasol explosion, I take it it was the Sasol 1 explosion and in regard to the safety of the residents of the Zandela township, did I understand you correctly to say that you did in fact consider the risk to those residents at the time, before you decided to hit the target?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did I also hear you correctly to say that if there had been a risk to those civilians you would not have gone ahead with that attack, is that what  you said?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, do you have any questions arising?

MR STEENKAMP: As it pleases Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ismail, you may now stand down as the witness.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: While we're shuffling chairs Mr Chairman, perhaps if I may suggest that Mr Ismail owes me one answer and that is just to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Is that to read that extract?

MR VISSER: Yes.  Perhaps it could just be placed on record tomorrow what his answer is to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ismail, you haven't forgotten there was that extract from that book in which there's about eight pages I think where you are the subject matter.  Mr Visser's requested you to read that and he will want to ask you and he's reserved this, the question, whether everything that is said in that extract as it appears in the papers which relates to you is correct?
	Is that right Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: That's precisely correct Mr Chairman.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, I will read that overnight and take the stand tomorrow morning and give my answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Trengove, are you going to call any further witnesses in regard to Mr Ismail's application or not?

MR TRENGOVE: No Sir, we don't propose to call any further witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Has it been worked out - because I have no really strong feeling in the order in which the next applicants are going to be called because - Mr Pooe, have you got any idea of the order in which you're going to call the applicants?  We don't have them numbered applicants 1 through to 9, so we don't have a natural sequence to follow so I don't know how you're going to do it.

MR POOE: Mr Chairperson, I have an order in my head which I haven't discussed with my colleagues across the room, which I would like to indicate to them but as my present thinking is that we would call certainly those matters in which victims are represented so as not to detain our learned friend unduly.  We've other matters in which they are not involved or in which they do not have an interest and thereafter maybe resort to matters then be called so to say in chronological order to the extent that they have not yet been disposed of.
	That is something that I haven't canvassed and perhaps my learned friends could indicate whether that is fine with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we have really no preferences in this regard and we would prefer to leave it entirely to the person who leads the evidence on however he wants to go about it.

CHAIRPERSON: We shall do that and leave it in your hands then Mr Pooe.