Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

MR BERGER: 625, I should say the first house where people were attacked, but the house before that was damaged but nobody was injured and it's the second house from the church and the church is at the corner of Bapedi as it kinks into Umsimvuvu and as I've told you, Mr Philip Umsevi was attacked by attacked by a person with a knobkierrie.  His son, Jabulani, was stabbed as he was trying to escape through the back window of the house.  His wife, Violet, was killed, she was shot and the bullet that hit her left a big hole, probably one from an AK47.  His son, Michael, seventeen years of age was also shot, lying next to his mother.  Mr Philip Msevi has a brother, Themba Msevi.  Mr Themba Msevi's daughter, Ronica, was living in that house with her uncle and cousin.  She was fifteen years old.  She was stabbed in the chest with an assegai which went right through her back.  Philip Msevi's son, Sibusiso, was nine years old.  He was stabbed by a spear in the chest and he died later in hospital and the two twins that you were talking about, Mr Mthembu, were in that house, not in the first house.  They were in that house where all those people were killed except they're not twins, a little boy and a little girl who could be mistaken for twins and you didn't put them under any bed, they hid under the bed and if you want, Mr Mthembu, I have got photographs here from the criminal trial.  For the record, it's from Volume 34 of the appeal record, page 3918 and 3919, 3920, 3921 which shows the people who were killed - a young boy lying in his underpants in bed, a woman lying on the kitchen floor, another deceased lying in bed and I'm putting it to you, Mr Mthembu, that you were involved in this incident and you have attempted to sanitise your involvement by saying that no one was killed in that house and only one person was stabbed, one person was hit on the head whilst running away.  Do you wish to comment?

MS PRETORIUS: May I just object here?  The answers was, it was not at the same house.  The first house was the house where he hit the person with a knobkierrie, the second house was where he stabbed the person, Mr Chairperson, unless I'm wrong then I apologise, but I'm quite sure that was the evidence.

MR BERGER: No.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, the evidence was "The first house I went into, yes that was the first I went into, I didn't see anybody else in that house.  Nobody was killed."  That was after he told about the children, thought the adults had already fled and then he said "I did not stab anybody in the second house, he was fleeing, I hit him with a knobkierrie, he kept on fleeing, he was a young man, he fled."

CHAIRPERSON: That's how I recall the evidence.

MR BERGER: The only difference, Mrs Pretorius, is that the person wasn't stabbed in the house, he was stabbed in the street, so I just wanted to clarify that aspect."

MS PRETORIUS: I'm sorry, no, the person that person that he stabbed was in the street but that was not at the first house where he hit the person with a knobkierrie.

MR BERGER: No, the witness said that the person who he hit with a knobkierrie ran out of the second house and that he was not a young man, he said he was a middle aged man.  Mr Philip Umsevi had a son of twenty one, he was a middle aged man and what I'm putting to Mr Mthembu is that he's taken the two houses, he's tried to separate it into two houses and what I'm putting to him is that all of that happened in one house, there was a man that was hit with a knobkierrie - he's the man who went to hide behind a car although he says it was a man who he stabbed.  The twins were in that house and four people were killed in that second house by being stabbed and by being shot and what I'm putting to this witness is that he's tried to separate things out and sanitise them when in fact those incidents happened in that very house, 625 Bapedi Street.

CHAIRPERSON: You've heard the question have you?  You've heard what counsel has put to you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I do understand.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would like to say here that he gave me a number here, a number that pertains to the incident he is talking about.  I did not give him the number and simply because I don't know the numbers of the area and you Mr Berger are trying to drive me to places that I never went to.  I would like to say that there's nothing I can say about that because Mr Berger is telling me what I did about what particular house, what number and before we went to lunch he said nobody got injured at Umsivuvu Street.

MR BERGER: I tried to explain to you that Umsimvuvu Street, there's a kink in Umsimvuvu Street and when you come out of that kink, Umsimvuvu becomes Bapedi.  Bapedi is near Umsimvuvu and you put yourself in a street, you didn't know the name of the street which you said was near to Umsimvuvu.  So that's the first point.
	You spoke about the first house and the second house.  I'm telling you that this house is the second house from the corner, the church being on the corner.  You spoke about two twins, I'm telling you that in this house, 65 Bapedi, there were two young small children who could be mistaken for twins who did hide under a bed.  In this house, the owner of the house ran outside, he was hit with a knobkierrie.  You hit someone with a knobkierrie.  Now talking all of that into account, I'm saying to you that the house you are talking about is 625 Bapedi and in that house four people were killed, not as you would have it - none being killed, that's what I'm putting to you.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I understand you perfectly.  I spoke of one person and not four people.

MR BERGER: That is why I'm saying to you you're not telling the truth.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is what you say but I am only talking about what I know.  The twins that I'm referring to, although I cannot be certain whether they were indeed twins or not, but I've explained what happened in that particular house.

MR BERGER: Why did you not take a gun to Boipatong that night, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have my own personal guns which I would not take and go and use in the attack because I know of the regulations regarding this.

MR BERGER: Please explain

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I can explain is that I would not have taken my licensed firearm to use against ANC members in Boipatong because I obviously would not be knowing what the gun was for, I would not understand what the guns would be used for.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I don't understand your answer at all, you don't know what the gun would be used for.

CHAIRPERSON: What he is saying is that his firearms were licensed and he did not want to use those licensed firearms in going to go and kill the ANC people because that would be against the regulations, that's what he wanted to list.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Against the regulations for getting a gun?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: But because there are no regulations when get a spear - you can use it to kill people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was responding to your previous question, not necessarily concurring with what you have just said now.

MR BERGER: Do you know that at the time there were regulations in effect which prohibited you from using a spear to kill people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Traditionally, I know that a spear is a traditional weapon, that we Amazulu carry when we go out to fight with other people.  We don't need a licence to carry this.

MR BERGER: I still don't understand your answer but I'll leave it there for the time being.  How many guns did you have licensed to you at the time?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I had two.

MR BERGER: You had a 9 mm Luger, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Which you got in January of 1991?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Another 9 mm Luger which you got in March of 1991, correct?