Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  May I just say that according to what is stated in the left bottom side of the document, I must have seen this document on the 24th of May 1985 unless, yes on the 23rd of May 1985 this report was sent and I saw this report on the 24th, according to my note relating to the date on which I'd seen it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you speak to du Plessis and van Zyl at or about this time about a plan to kill Goniwe?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Once again I can't recall what exact date it happened.  In my application - if I recall, I said it was two to three weeks before the people died.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  If we accept that date then it was shortly after you knew that the matter had been referred to higher authority.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: How could you have suggested the putting into operation of a murder plan if you knew that higher authority was going to discuss whether or not Goniwe should be re-appointed?

MR VAN RENSBURG: The order for the elimination I received from Mr Snyman.  He at no stage told me that there had been any change in the plan.  I accepted that what was written in this document, that that was matters relating to the re-appointment of this man as a teacher and that it had nothing to do with his revolutionary activities.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us try and come to terms with the real gravement or point of the question.  Snyman tells you and you tell du Plessis and van Zyl: "Make a plan to kill Goniwe".  That was on your dates, shortly after you knew - because you told us that you signed this document, that information was being sent to the head office for people at a higher level to decide whether or not Goniwe was going to be reinstated.  There can only be: "yes" to that question can't there?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: When Snyman came to you and suggested that you should put the plan into operation, did you ask him: "How can you suggest that to me, has the question of the re-appointment of Goniwe as contained in the exhibit that I signed and sent further up, has that decision been taken by the appropriate authority"?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I didn't put any questions to Colonel Snyman.

GEORGE BIZOS: But would you agree that that suggestion or order was inconsistent with the enquiries that were to made in terms of Exhibit X2, Y2? -  I've still got it wrong?  Paragraph 11 of Exhibit y page 2, paragraph 11.  Any suggestion of murder before the conclusion of this would have immediately raised question but what has happened to this question of re-appointment?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, the question was: "How could you have put the plan into operation without clarifying that obvious fact"?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Snyman gave this order and I believed that he had received it from higher authority and I received no instruction to halt the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you ask any questions Mr van Rensburg?  Did you not question the order to kill Goniwe and the others?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, not at all.  Arising from what Mr Snyman told me, arising from his private discussion with Mr le Grange and a private discussion with members of the Defence Force and the JMC whatever, I didn't question it at all.  And I accepted that Colonel Snyman was not the kind of person who would tell me something that wasn't true.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see there that there is a reference to page 181(a) of the record and could you go to 1019.  You see that - will you please read paragraph 8 on page 182.  	We will identify the original source Mr Chairman, and give it to you in due course but I was obviously reading now from a document which we have not yet been able to identify in the long record but we will give you the reference.
Will you please read paragraph 8 on page 182:
"30 May 1985 is a letter from the security branch, was received on that date, in which the security branch gives it's support to the Department of Education and trainings proposed action relating to Matthew Goniwe but at the same time further information is given relating to the person concerned's activities for consideration with a view to the detention of, amongst others, the two Goniwe's and Calata"
Do you know anything about that information?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I can't say today that I knew about it but I also can't dispute it that at the time I knew about it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Will you please go to page 1024 - perhaps I should start at the bottom of 1023, line 21 Mr Chairman.  1023 of Exhibit V, page 1023.
"What did you think would happen if Goniwe was reappointed and continued with his activities, according to the information which you had and according to the way in which you took your decisions?  What did you expect would happen in Cradock and the Eastern Cape?  Would the situation have been aggravated or would law and order be restored?
		"That I couldn't tell you Your Honour but we would have still monitored the situation.
		Yes, I know that you would monitor it.  Did you think that if he was appointed without any conditions that the situation would become very difficult?
It's a possibility Your Honour.
		It's a possibility?  What did you do about it?
		Regarding the fact that he wasn't appointed Your Honour?  I'm not quite sure what you mean.
		Did you not, as a security policeman, feel more and more isolated?
		No, Your Honour.
		That the civilians such as the people from the Education Department and other's recommendations were accepted and you just had to sit here and deal with the problem, is that not the way you felt?
		No, I didn't feel like that.  As I said, we accepted or would accept any decision taken at a higher level.
		Yes.  Now, when the recommendation - and you made the recommendation to the Geldenhuys Commission, did you talk to Mr or Colonel Winter regarding his point of view?
		Yes Your Honour.  I suppose that the Divisional head of the unit would have done that.
		Yes.  Did he have the same opinion as the security branch had, that he should not be reappointed?
		That I wouldn't be able to say".
Now, do you agree with this evidence of Mr Snyman before Justice Zietsman?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I could probably as it appears here.

GEORGE BIZOS: You agree with it?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you agree specifically
"As I say we will abide by any decision which is taken on higher level"

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well leaving aside for the moment that you have given contradictory evidence on this issue, self contradictory evidence on this issue, what do you say now that I read you Mr Snyman's evidence?  Had you known that the matter of re-appointment was still in the pipeline, had you known that would you have continued with the execution of the murder plan?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, unless I was obstructed from doing so, because as far as I can recall no other decisions were made or to my knowledge we did not receive any feedback that a decision had been made.

GEORGE BIZOS: But if in fact the decision was communicated to at least Mr Winter on the basis of the document that we read to you a short while ago, wasn't that enough to apprise the security police in the Eastern Province that that was the decision?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, I would not see that as an irrevocable decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, from what you tell us now ironically the life of Mr Goniwe and others was sort of protected by a committee higher up than your ranking, not so?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that would appear so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how was it possible, where his future was still in obeyance, for you or people at your level in ranking was able to make a decision to kill him?