Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was not an IFP member at the time.

MR MALINDI: And the only conflict you had had with the ANC was the one involving Doti and Skosana?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you become a member of the IFP subsequent to that, that is subsequent to the 17th of June 1992?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I became a member on the 17th.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	To the extent that you approved of this attack on Boipatong, it was because you were motivated by the desire to avenge what Doti and Skosana had done to you?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, deep in my heart I did not like the idea, I was not for the idea of attacking at Boipatong.

MR MALINDI: And you didn't want to take avenge in any form for what Doti and Skosana had done to you?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I would try and - I would revenge at Zone 12.

MR MALINDI: So in other words, you can't put forward any reason why you attacked Boipatong yourself?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: My reason to go to Boipatong is because Mr Damarra said openly that a man that be left behind or that would be left in the yard while the other men go to Boipatong, that man, the one who would be left in Boipatong - the man that would be left in the hostel whereas other men had gone fighting, that man it would be his very last day.

MR MALINDI: After you heard about Nosenga's existence, did you go up to him, Nosenga?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I went up to him.

MR MALINDI: When you got to him and questioned him, who else was with you?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was a number of us.

MR MALINDI: Any names that you can remember?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was the late Mtwala and Tzwee, Papie, Doti, Shemi and Matanana and Chanke.  Chanke is Joseph Radebe.

MR MALINDI: Was Mr Richard Dlamini anywhere near Nosenga at that time?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not see him.

MR MALINDI: Were Vusi and Spongolona also there?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Though I cannot remember very well, as we were coming towards him I did not see the people who were in his company.

MR MALINDI: At that time was Nosenga taken anywhere, after you questioned him?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Do you mean on that particular day?

MR MALINDI: On that particular day and specifically at the time when you were part of the group questioning him.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He came there and he joined us.  He stood there as we were washing the cars.

MR MALINDI: So as far as you are concerned, on this particular day, the day that you questioned him, he was not taken to any person, he just lay around the premises of Kwamadala?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: As we were there with him, in the evening a meeting was held.

MR MALINDI: The meeting was held in order to address the Nosenga issue?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the previous question.

MR MALINDI: Was this meeting held to discuss the Nosenga issue?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, and the other subjects were to be discussed.

MR MALINDI: Up until this meeting was called, you had seen Nosenga walking about the premises, he was not handed over to anyone?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I can see Nosenga was shocked.

MR MALINDI: And at this meeting, was this meeting on the same day on which you first met Nosenga and you were part of this interrogating group?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MALINDI: I don't remember if I've asked this question, where was this meeting held?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The meetings was held at Kwamadala hostel at the stadium.

MR MALINDI: And who dealt with the Nosenga issue at this meeting?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Mr Thembankosi Khumalo.

MR MALINDI: And Nosenga was at the stadium also?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he was also present.

MR MALINDI: And where had he come from before he presented himself at the stadium?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I do not understand your question.

MR MALINDI: Did Nosenga go to the stadium like anyone else when the meeting was called?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Nosenga went to the IFP Committee.

MR MALINDI: Did he present himself to the committee or how did he get to go to the committee?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He came to the stadium with the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question - wasn't your question how did,  did he go on his own to the Committee.

MR MALINDI: Yes, that was my question, Sir.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: People came to fetch him.

MR MALINDI: Who fetched him?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I cannot remember those people.

MR MALINDI: You yourself did not see Nosenga being taken away and being taken to the IFP Committee?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS CAMBANIS: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.
	As at the 17th of June 1992, how many of you were occupants in the room that you were occupying?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It is very difficult for me to say but it was a lot of us.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not being asked about the hostel as a whole, you're being asked about the room that you occupied.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Do you want to know how many people occupied one room, is that your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Occupied the room which you also occupied.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: If I'm not mistaken I think we were about 10 or 13.

MR MAPOMA: And I take it that in the light of Damarra assertion that every man must go and attack Boipatong, all your roommates did participate in the attack, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And of all your roommates, it's only three of you, that is yourself and the two twins who did not attend the Ulundi conference subsequent to the attack, is that correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And your roommates who attended the Ulundi conference, were they necessarily delegates for that conference or were they just attending the conference as interested persons?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I think they went there as interested people.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not attend the conference?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I was not interested.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR STRYDOM: This interrogation which was referred to which you had with Mr Nosenga, was that an informal situation or was it a formal situation, like a committee situation?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: We would ask questions randomly.

MR STRYDOM: Now when Mr Nosenga said that he was planted in the hostel as a spy and that he should look for places where he could plant bombs and all that, did you believe him?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we believed him because there were threats all the time.

MR STRYDOM: When you arrived at the hostel with Doctor and Jabulani, did you arrive by car?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, we used public transport, we used taxis and we alighted at the robots.

MR STRYDOM: You stated that the instruction to attack was given by Damarra, now if no order was given by him to attack Boipatong, would you have attacked Boipatong out of your own freewill?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, we would not attack.

MR STRYDOM: Did you realise at that stage that Damarra was one of the leaders at the hostel?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You testified about three shots which you fired in the beginning stages of the attack and later on you went to Slovo Park, did you see any comrades in Slovo Park, or did you find any comrades in Slovo Park?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The comrades at the street that intersects the Slovo Park and Boipatong, they jumped to the side of the shacks and they disappeared.

MR STRYDOM: After they disappeared, did you see them again?