Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Botha, did you give this instruction because you would get anything personally for it?

MR BOTHA: Certainly not. It was a military operation to bring home the point to the then government and the so-called liberation organisations that the Boer people would not again allow themselves to be suppressed and humiliated, that we were prepared to enter the struggle and that we would fight for our rights to continue to exist in our own territory.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you were detained in terms of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act, did this include people who were detained on account of political crimes?

MR BOTHA: That's quite correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Am I correct in assuming that there is no application for amnesty by this applicant in respect of illegal possession of firearms? By this particular applicant.

MS VAN DER WALT: No, there is such an application. It relates to all the charges on which he was convicted.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Have you really dealt with that, with the illegal possession of firearms?

MS VAN DER WALT: I'll do that. You applied for amnesty initially in terms of the old legislation?

MR BOTHA: That's quite correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you did so regarding all the charges of which you were convicted?

MR BOTHA: Quite correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: But at that stage the application couldn't go through because you - this fell outside the specified time.

MR BOTHA: The old cut off date was the 8th of October 1990 and our attack took place on the 9th of October 1990 so we couldn't be considered for indemnity because in terms of the old legislation we didn't qualify.

MS VAN DER WALT: And now - and then you applied again in terms of the new law and you did that for murder, attempted murder and illegal possession of firearms?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the illegal possession of firearms - these firearms, what were they?

MR BOTHA: They were an FN automatic assault rifle and an AK47.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who owned which weapon?

MR BOTHA: I was in possession of the FN rifle and Mr Eugene Marais had the AK47.

MS VAN DER WALT: And these arms, did you have them in your possession in order to carry out work for the Orde Boerevolk?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: This firearm was unlicensed?

MR BOTHA: Yes, it was.

MS VAN DER WALT: That will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

JUDGE WILSON: When did you get it?

MR BOTHA: The firearm? It was before the attack, probably about  two months before I came into possession of the FN rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR BRINK: Yes, Mr Chairman, I don't know what the procedure is, whether any of my colleagues would like to ask questions first or - I'm quite happy with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Botha, Exhibit A - The Oath, it's signed by your co-accused, Mr Marais, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That's right.

MR PRINSLOO: On what date was it signed?

MR BOTHA: It was on the 24th of September 1990.

MR PRINSLOO: So that was before the attack?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: The other co-accused, Mr Smuts, did he sign a similar oath?

MR BOTHA: Yes he did.  The evening before we left from Richards Bay on our way to Durban, he took the oath and he signed it, and I and Mr Marais acted as witnesses to his oath.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Botha,  before the arrest on the 17th of October, where did you put Exhibit A and Mr Smut's oath? Where did you put those?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, the forms were in my possession and on the morning of the 17th of October I arose very early. I saw through my bedroom window that there was a vehicle parked outside my flat. I used my binoculars to take a closer look and I saw that there were security police there.   I recognised them. I immediately became concerned, so I took the forms with the oaths with the signatures of Mr Marais and Mr Smuts and I put them in my refrigerator in the vegetable drawer. I hid them there under the vegetables.
	Immediately thereafter I heard knocking on my door and 17 security policemen under a Brigadier came into my flat and informed me that they were detaining me and they searched my flat.   They did not find the oath forms.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Botha,  after that you were detained in terms of Section 29?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you tell the security police where Exhibits A and the other document relating to Mr Smuts were hidden?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I did, and then they returned to my flat, found the forms where I had left them.

MR PRINSLOO: And is that where exhibit A comes from, from your flat?

MR BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Botha if I understand your evidence correctly, you testified that this action of yours was aimed at convincing the National Party Government, the government of the day, to change its views. Did that also apply to the PAC and the ANC and it's allies?

MR BOTHA: Most certainly.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage were you opposed to a take-over by a PAC/ANC majority government?

MR BOTHA: Most certainly, because I did not believe that either of these organisations would serve the interests of the Boerevolk and I believed that they would alienate us from our own fatherland and from that which had been built up for the Boerevolk, that would be taken over simply for their own gain.

MR PRINSLOO: But Mr Botha, presently, what do you feel now as opposed to what you felt at the time?   How - what are your present feelings?

MR BOTHA: I still feel committed to the struggle of the Boerevolk. The struggle for their own territory and the right to be ruled by their own people.

MR PRINSLOO: And how do you envisage achieving that at the moment?

MR BOTHA: Considering the situation as it is at present in this country, everyone is negotiating. The right-wing parties have also entered this negotiating process. There is a Volkstaat Committee which is negotiating with the current government for the right to establish a Volkstaat, and I understand that this right is also entrenched in the new constitution.
So I believe that the struggle which we began and the declaration of war that we issued are no longer valid. That we are negotiating with these organs, with the government and that we should continue with these negotiations.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, Mr Botha,  this action that you led, there was the loss of human life, there was mutilation, how do you feel about that?

MR BOTHA: It was unfortunate. I don't feel good about that. No right thinking person would simply go and deprive another person of his life. But, in a situation of war, there is always a loss of life on both sides. We did not ask to be forced into the situation in which we found ourselves.
Our demand for territory, for an area, was a reasonable demand, and if one's demands are not acceded to, then one has to fight for that in which one believes. Just as I am sorry that these people in the bus, that they were the victims and they had to lose their lives, I am also sorry about the war that was fought on our borders for so many years in which people who were performing their National Service had to lose their lives. 
The progress of political developments in this country has brought about tremendous loss of life on both sides, that is on the ANC, the PAC, the Security Forces, and as I said earlier, the Boerevolk are not strangers to oppression, to humiliation, all that they have ever wanted is to live in peace in their own territory and to govern themselves. That is the evidence of our history.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Botha,  this attack was in Durban, and not in Richards Bay where you resided?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was the reason for that?