Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-07

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't want to restrict you in asking questions but the questions must be relevant to the hearing.  You don't have to bring Mangope and the fact they mustn't come and kill you, there's no suggestion of that.  If you can just keep the questions relevant, you can ask as many questions as you like but they must be relevant to the hearing.

MR MOLOPE: If he is lying, don't we have the right to tell him that he is?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you have the right to tell him that if that is what you believe.

MR MOLOPE: Did anyone pay you?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Nobody paid me.

MR MOLOPE: Are you working at the moment?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, I am

MR MOLOPE: Where are you working?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I'm working in CIS.

MR MOLOPE: At the moment you have benefited from what you have done or you currently benefiting.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I wouldn't say that I'm the only one who is benefiting but the whole country has benefited because of the liberation.  Mr Molope's death was part of the package of the liberation of our people.

MR MOLOPE: Mr Makhura, my father was a policeman and his duty was to maintain law and order and to prevent crime, therefore I don't agree with the fact that he had to be killed so that we should all be liberated.  There were people who were governing in the previous regime and as a policeman you just follow the rules of the country to prevent crime but you have killed my father and we have suffered because of that and we are still hurting because of this.
	One other thing that hurts me most is that even the people whom he was serving, as loyal as he was towards them, they planned everything with you people.  I know that the Smith Commission of Inquiry he was a key witness and he agreed that he is the one who issued the order.  That I agree with.  I was quite fully aware at that moment but as to why he became the main target I do not know.  He is not the one who killed the people in Winterveld.  There were many other policemen who did such a thing.  
	One other thing Mr Makhura, please tell me you and Justice, after having killed Molope, did you mention that you were looking for Mokobojane?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, Mokobojane was also on our list.  We were looking for him but we never found him on time because we were arrested quickly.

MR MOLOPE: But Molope was your prime target.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Not necessarily Molope but whoever we found first of the two, Molope or Mokobojane we would have hit.

MR MOLOPE: Molope was transferred to Mafeking and he stayed there during the week and came here on week-ends. That is after the Winterveld massacre, Mokobojane took over here and he was staying here.  But now what is surprising is that you didn't trace Mokobojane but you took pace to trace a person from Mafeking, you and Mokobojane traced this man and killed him and after killing him Mokobojane ran away because he knew exactly what was happening.  That is the hurting part about Mr Mokobojane.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Mr Mokobojane would respond to that, he was one of our targets and they were not our only targets, we had our other missions as well.  It would be time consuming to focus solely on these two guys.

MR MOLOPE: What I'm telling you is that Mokobojane helped you to find Molope.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: He will be the one to respond to that, Mokobojane himself.

MR MOLOPE: My brother I do understand what is happening now.  You did the job and at the end of the day you are well off with what you did.  Whether you're granted amnesty or not, I don't have a problem with that but the problem is you are progressing and you've just said that you have killed him.  He won't come back.  Life must go on.  He was a victim.  You and the people he used to work with victimised him.
	That is what hurts most.  The present dispensation would have come into being even if he was not killed but I'm happy that you are progressing and doing well but at least now I know who killed him, despite the fact that I am not satisfied with your evidence.  But God is there, I believe in him.  Every dog has its day and if it's time to die then nothing can be done about it.  God will be the one to forgive you but nothing can be done, life must go on.
	Thank you, no further questions Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOPE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Molope.
	Mr Lengane or Mr van den Berg?

MR LENGANE: Lengane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lengane?

MR VAN DEN BERG: There is just one question we have in re-examination.
	You testified about the number of bullets that you had on you.  If I understood correctly you said that there were 31 bullets in the magazine and then an extra bullet in the chamber.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: How many magazines did you have on you?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Our AK rifles always had two magazines on them.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you recall how many bullets you had left after the shooting took place?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: We counted them, me and Mandla but I remember we did count them, but I cannot tell exactly how many were left.

MR VAN DEN BERG: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one Mr Chairman.
	Mr Makhura, you said you hit Brigadier Molope on the left-hand side, do you recall saying so?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

ADV MOTATA: And because of the hail of bullets he fell down?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, he fell down.

ADV MOTATA: How did he fall, on his face, side, how did he fall?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: He fell face down.  He was moving towards Mandla who was shooting him from the front so he landed face down.

ADV MOTATA: I know it is a long time ago and this happened within split seconds, but you can testify that your gunshots, would you say your gunshots are the ones that killed him or Mandla's, or can't you say which one?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I wouldn't say it's mine or Mandla's but we both fired.

ADV MOTATA: So would we be correct that yours mainly when he was down landed on his back?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Because I was shooting him from the ...[indistinct] it is possible that they penetrated from the left.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Advocate Sigodi, do you have any questions?

ADV SIGODI: I've got no questions Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising from questions put by the panel?

MR VAN DEN BERG: None Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: None Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Makhura, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  That is the case for the applicants.  We don't intend to lead any further evidence on this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, at this stage I will call the wife of the deceased to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, it won't be evidence on the incident itself, it's just ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: She wishes to say something?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
	Mrs Molope, what are your full names please?

MRS MOLOPE: Sinha Gadifele Molope.

CHAIRPERSON: Do have any objection to taking the oath?

SINHA GADIFELE MOLOPE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mrs Molope, you are the wife to the deceased, Brigadier Molope?

MRS MOLOPE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You will recall that yesterday as well as today you indicated to me that you would like to say something to this Committee on behalf of the family?

MRS MOLOPE: That is correct.