Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

MR DEHAL: I think two copies are needed.  Sorry Mr Chairperson, we are dealing with the second page, there are three pages there, from about line 6 downwards from where the words start with "yes, have you done any service in the Police Force" and the answer there is "yes, I have."  The next question is "when" and Mr McBride was at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: The person responded
		"I left in either 1981 or 1982.  You left in 1981 or 1982?  Correct.  For how long were you there?  Three, three and a half years approximately.  From about what year?  From about the end of 1978.   Where were you stationed?  I was stationed in the Drakensberg district, Bulwar to be exact."
	In effect, this is the questions that were asked of all the witnesses who testified as victims.  That was my instructions to them.   I am not sure whether all of them were asked this question, but I know at least three were.

MR DEHAL: And this witness, Mr Erasmus, testified in the trial relating to the Why Not explosion as a person who was there?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: There, I mean at the Why Not?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: For example a further question in the same vein is
"And I assume you had many friends among the Police Force at the time?"
	The person answers -
"In the Bulwar area I had friends yes, friends and associates."
	And the Advocate says -
"Even in the Durban area?"
	And he says -
"I don't know many policemen in the Durban area".
	That was the train of questioning there, and one of the co-applicants, Matthew Lecordier who was a witness, was also asked questions relating to this, as to information he subsequently picked up about the operation, which was the most popular bar for Durban police at the time.

MR DEHAL: Yes.  Mr McBride, I now take you to another witness who testified during your trial in Pietermaritzburg, and this is the witness who talked about the Why Not incident as well.  The same type of questions were asked of him, will you please go through that but before you do, will you please allow me to hand over copies.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of this witness, just for my notes?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, the next witness will be Mr Engelbrecht.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Engelbrecht, extract from trial record, Mr Engelbrecht, and that will be Exhibit K.

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Mr McBride, if I may just take you to just below the middle of that extract, from about the lines 18, 19, 20 downwards, do you see the part where I think Mr Morane the junior counsel in this matter, was cross-examining this witness, Engelbrecht and said
"... yes, well Mr Nel told His Lordship and the learned gentlemen assessors, that for some years, he was a member of the Police Force.  Did you do any service in the Police Force?  (And then he answers) - yes, I did a year."
	Do you see that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I see that.

MR DEHAL: The Nel here referred to is the Nel, the previous witness whose testimony and extract of which we dealt with just now, in Exhibit J.

CHAIRPERSON: That was the extract from the evidence of a Mr Erasmus, not a Mr Nel.

MR DEHAL: I beg your pardon, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I see from this extract Mr McBride, Mr Engelbrecht says yes, he was in the police for a year before he went to university in 1966 and he was stationed in Elliot.  Now, would you at that stage have regarded him as a Security Force legitimate target, because he had been in the Police Force, 20 years prior to the incident?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No sir, the point I am making here is that those were the questions that I instructed my lawyer to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

MR DEHAL: And Mr McBride, is it not true that this, these extracts show that these were persons who were present and I deal with another extract shortly, that is Mr Nel, persons that were present in the Why Not bar at the time the operation was carried out, and these were persons who had either been policemen at some stage or had association with them or both?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, I think we have finished with that extract.   Thank you.  I now show you the said Mr Nel's evidence, an extract thereof, on page 677 of the transcript.  If you will bear with me, I just want to hand over copies again.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be Exhibit L.

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, we deal here from lines 8 downwards, Mr McBride, do you see line 8 says - "now was this ..." - or firstly before we begin with that.  You recall this person Mr Nel, who testified in the trial, and he testified to the effect that he was at the Why Not bar at the time that the operation was carried out, he was a State witness at the trial, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: He had actually just left.  In fact only one of the people who, two of the people who were actually in the bar at the time, one who was injured, the other was Mr Davidson, actually testified at the trial.

MR DEHAL: Correct.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I don't know why only two of those were in.

MR DEHAL: Yes.   Now, Mr Nel dealt with the Why Not bar operation at line 9 he says
"now was this in the army ..."
... sorry, perhaps we will deal with the sentences before that.  
"Are you a South African citizen?"
		"I am."  
He says.  
"Have you completed your military training?"
He says -
" Yes, I have My Lord"
Do you see that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, I have that.

MR DEHAL: Can you read the rest of it.
MR McBRIDE
		"Now was this in the army or did you have to do police duties?   I did police duties.  Where and when? From 1959, in fact I was a member of the South African Police from 1959 until about 1968.  Where were you stationed?  I was stationed at the Criminal Bureau in Pretoria.  What rank did you achieve in the South African Police?   I was a Detective Sergeant.  What actually did you do at the Criminal Bureau?   I was a fingerprint expert and also a draughtsman/photographer.  During your years at the police, did you by any chance meet up with Capt de Beer?  I have never met him in my life before, My Lord."

MR DEHAL: Yes.  There ends the extract relevant to these proceedings, is that correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, if you will bear with me.   Sorry Mr Chairperson, if you will please bear with me.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr McBride, may we now turn to the next operation, that is the Umlaas Mobil Oil pipeline explosion, or sorry, perhaps before we deal with this, you have heard - sorry we have dealt at some length with the evidence you had given in the Section 29 enquiry, do you recall that and we have heard that you may be cross-examined thereon?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: Do you have any difficulties with that transcript?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No, none whatsoever.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.   Now, let's turn to the Umlaas Mobil Oil pipeline explosion of the 21st and 22nd of June.

CHAIRPERSON: Umlaas, is that "aa"?

MR DEHAL: I agree, thank you very much, I apologise.  This is contained in bundle A1 on page 9 as item 18.  Do you see that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I have that.

MR DEHAL: There were no deceased persons, no injured persons reported in this matter?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: Matthew Lecordier, you and Mr Ismail are the applicants?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.