Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Well, I think those who actually represented the old order regarded them as illegals.  We as ANC members, we regarded them as freedom fighters and the people who were legal to come into the country because it belongs to them.

MR PRINSLOO: Whatever your perspective, those people had nothing to do with Piet Retief, is that correct?  They were people from some place else who were on their way to Durban?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: No, that may be your perception, but my information doesn't say that.  As I understand, the majority of them, they were from Durban, you know, and they had work to do in Piet Retief and they had to go to Durban.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you have personal knowledge of what their instructions were or are you taking a guess?  Are you simply trying to colour your evidence to suit the Piet Retief context?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: No, I'm not trying to colour.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you ever attend the post-mortem inquest?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: From day one until the end.

MR PRINSLOO: Then you would have known that those people came in from Swaziland, not by means of the border post but over the fence so to speak?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, I know that.

MR PRINSLOO: So, why would you want to connect those people to Piet Retief, simply because the incident took place just outside Piet Retief.

CHAIRPERSON: Because, Mr Prinsloo, they were alleged ANC members and they were shot dead.  Isn't that the answer?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, as I have understood the evidence which Mr Black wants to place before the Committee, it has to do with the impact on the people of Piet Retief.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, Chairperson, there is nothing about that which would have affected the community of Piet Retief at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't wish to argue about this, but certain actions took place which, according to his opinion, led to the murder of these individuals and that is his point, not the fact that they came from Durban or Swaziland or whatever.  As I have understood his evidence, these events had an impact on the community of Piet Retief.

MR PRINSLOO: These events of 1988 have been connected to events in 1990 and thereafter.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: He is building up to 1992 and 1993.

MR PRINSLOO: I wouldn't want to waste any time here, but the evidence presented by this witness regarding the background to certain incidents which have been based on hearsay and have been drawn from other sources ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That may be so, and you may ask questions regarding that.

MR PRINSLOO: Well, then for that reason, I would like to beg the opportunity from the honourable Committee that this evidence be presented tomorrow when I have had the opportunity to obtain the documents.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Whether they were going to Durban or coming from Swaziland is immaterial.  What is the import of that?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, might I just clear up something with Mr Black regarding all these various incidents to which have been referred.  I'm not referring to the kombi incident, but to the Khezwa, Msibi and other incidents.  It would save us some time.  For a moment please, Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: (s.u.o.)

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.  I'm grateful to the Committee for the adjournment.  I have no further questions.  Just to touch on another aspect regarding the other persons who have been implicated.  I have been approached and informed that someone will be appearing tomorrow.  That is all which I can tell the Committee in that respect.  That is the request which I have received.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... surely.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, Mr Msibi merely approached me during the adjournment now and he told me that he intends appointing counsel which will be present tomorrow in order to present certain questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's his problem.  He was informed of this hearing.  He must do what he thinks is necessary.

MR HATTINGH: Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

MR MAPOMA: No questions, sir.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR SANDI: Mr Gamede, maybe just one question from me.  You made mention of a group of people who were taken to Gauteng for military training.  Do you recall that?  How many people were taken for such training?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Oh sorry.  That incident actually took place in a general meeting which was called by Mr Msibi, that he was looking for people who were looking for work.  And on a Monday people were then recruited in the community who were then taken to Gauteng and then that's where they were then trained.  But majority of them after two weeks they came back to Piet Retief because they thought they were seriously going there to get work.  So, majority of them came back.  I think all of them, if I'm not mistaken.

MR SANDI: Those who came back, what did they come back to say was happening at this place where there was this military training going on?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes, they said actually they went there to be trained.  Then let me talk about the perception again.  Was that I think it was a bit difficult, in Piet Retief majority of the community are ANC supporters.  Now, I think the intention was that these people must come to the township and cause havoc, but obviously when they went there and they were trained for military training, because when they were told that they were going into Gauteng to get jobs and when they entered Gauteng they were then told to go to the township to fight in the township in Gauteng, they then returned back to Piet Retief.

MR SANDI: Thank you, Mr Gamede.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions?

MR BLACK: I just want to clarify one issue.  When you were giving your evidence you mentioned that certain people that received training were also operating as it were, IFP operating in Ermelo from Piet Retief?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.  If you're looking to all these incidents, there was a coordination between Piet Retief, Ermelo, Davel.  It was similar incidents that were taking place and actually even if we talk about violence in Mpumalanga, it was Piet Retief, Ermelo and Davel.

MR BLACK: And was this violence of a political nature?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR BLACK: Thanks.  I've no further questions.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

MR SANDI: Just one aspect with your indulgence, Mr Chairman, on a question which I omitted to ask the witness.  You said there was a thought or a belief or a perception in the community that Mr Msibi was an IFP man, is that correct?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Yes.

MR SANDI: Why did the people think that Mr Msibi was a member of the IFP?

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Well, he actually associated with them.  He used to go to the hostel to have meetings with the IFP members and wherever they were talking, they were saying he is their leader.

MR SANDI: Thank you.