Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, on both sides, and I see how politics has progressed and I want to say how naive politics is.  I want to say this in hindsight.  I am now convinced that it is a pity that those of us who were in the forces, and I am including MK and the ANC's military wing and the PAC and other organisations as well, those based at grassroots level as well as those on higher levels that we were placed in the middle of two political streams, let's call it the previous government or the National Party and then the ANC on the other side and that we ended up in this stream and found ourselves in these dilemmas.
	And that I want to go so far as to say that the politicians on the side of the previous government they wanted to stay in power by using these forces and today I am sorry that I became involved and I wish I could change things; and that negotiations had been taken place many years ago, then all this pain and suffering and the position in which my colleagues and I find ourselves from - I feel very sorry for all of this.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, no thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa.

MR MOOSA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr van Rensburg you were here when Mr du Plessis gave his evidence yesterday and this morning, is that right?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: One of the things we heard was the statement generated after there was a meeting in Pretoria, did you hear that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I heard it, yes.

MR MOOSA: Were you there at that meeting?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I was not there, I was ill.

MR MOOSA: Was there any discussion with you by any of the other applicants before you made your statement?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes there was.

MR MOOSA: When was that discussion, plus/minus?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think it was more-or-less during November 1996, it was more-or-less then when we decided to apply for amnesty.

MR MOOSA: And could you let us have an insight into what made you reluctant to apply for amnesty before that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman in general, I am just talking on behalf of myself, in discussions with other colleagues we were uncertain how exactly the TRC would function and specifically the Amnesty Committee, and whether we should have a just trial, who would serve on the committees, etc, etc, and we were uncertain whether we should apply for amnesty or not, whether it would be the right thing to do.
	Afterwards it became clear to us and many of us felt right we've done, it had happened under certain circumstances, let's state our point of view.

MR MOOSA: And where and when was the meeting held that you are referring to?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I had discussions with old colleagues in Port Elizabeth regarding this matter.

MR MOOSA: And who was present at the meeting?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I can remember it was Mr Roelofse amongst others, that was initially, and later we gathered in the Free State and discussed these matters again and there amongst others were Mr du Plessis, Erasmus, Mr Sakkie van Zyl and a few others.  I can't remember their names now.  And there we finally decided, or we can put it in that way, those who did not want to apply for amnesty should not stay behind those who wanted to apply for amnesty.  We are going to do that.  We decided that we were going to our legal counsel to get legal advice and after I've made my statement to my attorney we would fax a copy to Mr du Plessis, for example, in Pretoria, so that they also had insight in our documents, and would be able to indicate where we had wrong facts. For example things might have been forgotten.  And this is how it happened.

MR MOOSA: Can you remember from the people who were present at these meetings who indicated that they were not prepared to apply for amnesty?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not one, as far as I know.

MR MOOSA: And of course what you have told us is there was a meeting in Pretoria where you were not present, another meeting in Port Elizabeth and another meeting in the Free State?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: And this meeting in the Free State, when was that - plus/minus?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That was round about during November 1996, it was before the 12th or the 14th of December of 1997 in any case, rather 1996.

MR MOOSA: I notice your statement is made in May 1997, is that right?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: Did you make any kind of decision about - or did you discuss specific incidents in these meetings?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we had to tell one-another, I you and they were involved in this or that incident.  I am going to apply for amnesty, what do you say about it?  And then another would say, yes, we are going to go for it.  We are going to apply.  That's how it worked, basically.

MR MOOSA: And what happens when somebody said look, I was not involved in that particular incident, what would happen there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well I don't know, it did not happen like that.  There was not a case like that.

MR MOOSA: You of course discussed as one of the incidents, the one we are busy with now, the incident of Sizwe Kondile, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: And of course there's a history to this one in that as early as the Harms Commission these allegations were made?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And they were made in particular by a person called Dirk Coetzee, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: In all these meetings that you have spoken about was there discussion about this gentleman, Dirk Coetzee?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, except that there were parts of his evidence we did not agree with.

MR MOOSA: And what was the feeling about Dirk Coetzee and earlier Almond Nofomela having blown the lid, having exposed certain things?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Are you referring when they did it, or are you referring to when we decided to apply for amnesty?  When are you referring to?

MR MOOSA: I am referring to the meetings and up to now what is the feelings towards Dirk Coetzee in particular?  Let's talk about you, what's your feelings towards Coetzee?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman I don't feel anything about Mr Coetzee.  I've already decided that I will have no hate, I won't have hate in my heart and I am not going to continue living like that, whatever happens.  And I can assure you that it will be a glad day for me when Mr Coetzee also be granted amnesty, so that what we have done wrong that we can disclose that.  We can say that was a certain stage in the South African history, it had happened, but let's forget about all this hate and let's go forward together.  This is how I feel about him.  I can honestly tell you I do not wish, from my side, that anything should happen to him, that anything bad should happen to him, should he be granted amnesty I would be glad about it.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr van Rensburg would you have made this application if Mr Coetzee had not said what he had said?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I am convinced I would have because I became tired of this thing in me, if I can put it like that.  The Harms Commission has already referred to this and at that stage there was no other opportunity such as the Amnesty Committee to apply for amnesty.
	I think the time was not ripe because of politics.  This is how I felt.

JUDGE PILLAY: If he did not say what he had said what would your position have been?