Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I think how it happened, the post-mortem was in issue, if I remember correctly and make an inference, I am not hundred percent sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Did nobody at that meeting say look Mr Goosen, it is a fact that this happened, it is the truth that Mr Biko knocked his head against the wall, by accident?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I can't recall that.  I don't think that is how it happened.

GEORGE BIZOS: A senior officer came, an officer of high rank whom your Minister said was a crack Detective and he would leave no stone unturned to get to the bottom of it, and we must have confidence in the judicial system to unearth the truth and we have in evidence at the inquest, 1977 inquest, that he actually roneoed out a form with yes or no on it, did you assault Biko, yes/no and you had a choice to strike out the inappropriate word, do you recall that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, would you say that that was an insult to the administration of justice for a matter such as  this to be "investigated" in that manner?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did this General that was appointed to investigate the circumstances of the death, ask you whether or not you knew how a head injury was suffered by Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, he didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you suggesting that a senior officer, a General who had the post-mortem report and who knew that Mr Biko's head had been smashed up, didn't bother to ask you who was present in the interrogation room, as to how that head injury might have been inflicted?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: All I can recall is that he asked a question about the mark to the left eye, that is all that he asked about.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you falsely told him that you didn't see it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I did, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You told him a lie?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he show you a colour photograph on which that was clear for everyone to see?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what did you say to that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was at the same time that he asked the question, and we said no, it was only Wilken.  After Goosen spoke to Wilken, Wilken made a statement to that effect that he had seen the mark.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't he ask you whether you were seated or standing, how come you didn't see the obvious, didn't he interrogate you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, he didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Interrogation was reserved for people like Mr Biko, not Security Policemen?  The answer must be yes?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He didn't question me.  I was not a suspect.

GEORGE BIZOS: What made a person a suspect?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: When there is a suspicion that he has committed an offence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't anyone suspect you of having done anything wrong?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.  He was the Investigating Officer, nobody regarded me as a suspect.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where was the hosepipe when the General came down?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was there in the office.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he go to the interrogation room, this General?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I think he did, because he had to go through my office, I think he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you interrogated or questioned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I was called to Goosen's office.

GEORGE BIZOS: You say he went to this room, and the hosepipe was still on the window sill?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, it was there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't he ask you or anyone else that there seems to be a correlation between the tram lines on Mr Biko's body of which he had the post-mortem report, and this thing that happened to be on the window sill weeks after his death when the General came down?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, he didn't ask me anything about it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, as a person who rose to be a Colonel in the Security Police such as yourself, didn't it occur to you to put this hosepipe away just in case there was an honest investigation in the matter, and they might connect it with the tram lines on Mr Biko's body?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, it didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were confident that your perjury would prevail and nobody would ask any meaningful questions?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is what I believed.

GEORGE BIZOS: During the time that you were there, and when Mr Biko refused to give any meaningful answers to your questions, was he cool and calm?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Initially yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Before the scuffle, was he cool and calm?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I wouldn't say that.  According to me his attitude is one of arrogance and that is how I saw it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, he certainly wasn't submissive?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is true.

GEORGE BIZOS: Nor was he a person likely to show any fear?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is true.

GEORGE BIZOS: It would have been the very antitheses of the arrogance that you speak of?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Nor was he a person that was likely to panic under any sort of pressure that you may have put on him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That was the first time that I had any dealings with Mr Biko, and those were my impressions of him.

GEORGE BIZOS: You certainly didn't get any impression that he panicked?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, that is true.

GEORGE BIZOS: If your colleague, Mr Siebert, tried to persuade the other Committee that Mr Biko panicked when he was shown a document, would that be incorrect?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is his observation, but I can't comment on Mr Siebert's observation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us confine ourselves to your positive statement that you certainly did not see Mr Biko panicking at any stage.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you, can you recall whether or not Mr Siebert read a passage out of the notes made by Mr Jones implicating Mr Biko on the pamphlet?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is possible, I can't remember that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, if it did happen, it isn't something that you would have been likely to forget, because this was a piece of your handiwork and you would have taken even more notice of it if Mr Biko had panicked as a result of anything being shown to him.  Would you agree with that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It may be, but I can't remember that.  I was present at many interrogations, and it is really difficult after 20 years, to recall what happened sentence by sentence, it is practically impossible, no person can do that.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, if you speak the truth about dramatic events, I am going to suggest to you, it is easy to remember.  If you take part in making up stories, it is then that you have to resort to your answer that I cannot remember, because you begin to become confused with a perjered versions that you have profit with the truth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, that is not the truth.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you read Prof Laubscher's findings on the post-mortem report?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, I did.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you study them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, didn't you want to study them in order to be able to cut your cloth so to speak accordingly so that you may have a more coherent version for the Committee?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I consulted with my legal representative about that, after having put my version to the Truth Commission, or having sent my version to the Truth Commission.
	I didn't read Mr Laubscher's findings before that.

GEORGE BIZOS: If we were to put to you that neither on your version, or the version of your colleagues, are all the injuries noted by Prof Laubscher accounted for, what would you say?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is probably correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am going to put ...