Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: When I arrived at the Mercedes, I do not recall clearly as to whether there was gun firing because I was nervous and very agitated and I was concentrating on these three men.

UNKNOWN: Sir, it seems as if you just, if you can just remember things if it suits you.  When you arrived there you should have, you should know what happened.  People, were there shots fired there where the people were lying next to the car?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have already said that I don't remember.  I was nervous and I was hurt and

UNKNOWN: Sir, when you arrived at the Mercedes Benz, you immediately shot these three men, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that there was a bit of conversation, well not conversation but talk took place before he shot.

UNKNOWN: Indeed so, yes Mr Chairperson.  Sir, you then arrived at this blue Mercedes Benz, you then questioned the people lying there, you interviewed him, interviewed them, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have long dealt with that answer, Sir.

UNKNOWN: I would like you to answer it again.  I am asking you a question, you sat there and had an interview with them, you asked them questions.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, there was a conversation between us and I shot them.

UNKNOWN: Before we get to the shooting when you sat there and talking to them, there was no danger, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: There, none of them was moving at that time and I didn't see myself in any danger but I was, I only started shooting them when I saw the one who was moving his hand.

UNKNOWN: Sir that was not my question.  It was, when you got there, there was no danger, is that correct?  Otherwise you would have shot immediately?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: According to me, there was still some danger.

UNKNOWN: What danger?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: They could kill me, those people.

UNKNOWN: But not necessarily.  Did you saw any security forces who disarmed some of the AWB members?  Were you present when this happened?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not see that.  I never saw any policemen or any defence force member disarming these people.  I saw nobody.

UNKNOWN: Did you not see, at any stage, that anyone, whether from the police or the defence force secure the place and take the AWB member's weapon?  Did you never see that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I saw nothing of that sort.

UNKNOWN: When you got to the Mercedes Benz, were the AWB members getting out of the car?  What was the situation?  Was they already out and lying on the ground?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I would not tell you of the positions.  They were, I was not able to see the situation.  It was difficult.  It was not easy.

UNKNOWN: So when you got there, after the shooting, you immediately moved towards the vehicle, is that not true?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Which shooting Sir?

UNKNOWN: Sir, you just said that there was continuous shooting and then you ran or went to the Mercedes Benz when it stopped, didn't you say that?

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said, he said that when he was going, what my understanding was, when he was going towards the vehicle, he could hear shots and he can't recall whether there was shooting at the stage when he actually arrived there.  When he was there confronting these three people.  He didn't say that he waited for the shooting to stop and then make his approach.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, indeed.  So I did not think he waited for the shooting to stop, but when the Mercedes Benz stopped there, he walked towards the vehicle.  That is how I understood his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: And he said, while he was walking there was continuous gun fire.  And then he couldn't answer the question as when it stopped but he said it had stopped by the time he had shot those three people.  There was no more gunfire.

UNKNOWN: Indeed Sir, but Mr Menyatsoe, when you got to this Mercedes Benz can you remember if they were getting out of the car, were they inside of the car or outside?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: They were getting outside the car?

UNKNOWN: Then they went to go and lie next to the vehicle, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: How long before the Mercedes Benz stopped and before you shot them, what was the time span between these two occurrences?

CHAIRPERSON: Is all this very relevant, Mr Van Der Beg?  It sounds like we are getting into the sort of detail that one normally gets into in a criminal trial.  How far were you standing from there, how long between this and how, what is the purpose of this cross-examination?  Whether it was twenty seconds or thirty seconds, does it make any difference?

UNKNOWN: With respect, Mr Chairperson, it is of cardinal importance because my point is the following: according to the Tebbutt Commission's findings there was approximately twenty minutes while the people were lying outside of the vehicle and that is what we heard on the television as well.  And in that twenty minutes that we saw on the television there was no fear of shooting or war and the applicant said that there was a war situation but..
	Mr Menyatsoe, how long did it take before the Mercedes Benz stopped and the people 
got out, what was the time span?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't recall but it took me a very short time which I am not able to estimate, whether it was minutes or seconds.

UNKNOWN: The Tebbutt Commission accepted or found that approximately twenty minutes expired, as well as on the television.  We saw that Mr Uys said that they were calling for assistance for approximately fifteen minutes.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Tebbutt Commission could know that but I don't know how long it took.  I am saying I don't know, as to whether the Tebbutt Commission agreed on that time, I would not dispute that fact, but I myself explained this that I do not know how long it took, as to whether seconds or hours or minutes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Van Der Berg can you just indicate where it is documented, which part that it was twenty minutes?

UNKNOWN: If you can just give me a moment.
	Mr Chairperson, if we look at Volume one of the Tebbutt Commission on page 152, it says there, under last part ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We are not in possession of that, but if you could give the reference, Volume one,..

UNKNOWN: Volume one, page 152, that is the last part of the page, "The men had lain outside their car for fifteen to twenty minutes before they were shot."
	Mr Menyatsoe, did the media also have interviews there or do you not know anything about that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: On that day, I saw only three AWB members, during that incident of the shooting.  After that I left.  I did not see anybody.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, just a moment.  Sir, would you say that at the stage when you shot them, would you say that at that stage there was a war situation going on?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I said the incident of that day was the situation of war.

UNKNOWN: Sir, I am talking specifically at that moment when you shot them, at that stage, was there a state of war or not?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: According to me it was the state of war.

UNKNOWN: What was the state of war to which you are referring to now, at that stage?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was afraid that those people would kill me any minute.  Anything could have happened from them.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Menyatsoe, let me put it to you this way, who were the two parties you perceived to be at war?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: When it comes to parties, it will create a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think maybe that word might have misled you, but who were the two sides in the war?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: AWB was fighting against the Bophuthatswana population, nation.