Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-16

GEORGE BIZOS: But now why should you think that you only monitored Gavin Evans and Dullah Omar in 1990, and come to the Amnesty Committee ten years later and say you were guilty of a conspiracy or an attempted murder of these two?  When was your memory fresher, in 1990 when you deliberately lied to the Commission or now when you are making admissions for the purposes of getting amnesty?

MR VERSTER: No, Chairperson, I think I've already answered that, I said that he ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: If you - I'm sorry to interrupt you, please do not repeat the 10/12 minute speech that you made this morning, the question is a simple one.  Was your memory better in relation to these events in 1990 than it was in the year 2000?  Just answer that question please.

MR VERSTER: I'm answering it as I want to, Chairperson.  I said it in my previous discussion that when I understood the circumstances of my isolation better, I started to talk to Region 6 and I confirmed that they - that there were not any other intentions with the region and I accepted it, and later on an Act was on the books with the new government, which allowed me to apply for amnesty and to be granted amnesty, and at that stage I was an enemy of the previous government.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please answer the question.  When was your memory better, in 1990, a year after the event or in 2000, after eleven years?  Please answer that question.

MR VERSTER: I think it is a logical answer, that at this moment with the facts at my disposal, I understand it better.  And for this reason ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Memory is not understanding, Sir, memory is not understanding.  Will you please explain, in relation to your memory, why you had a lapse of memory in 1990 and all of a sudden you remembered and which persisted until yesterday, but now your memory has come back to you?

MR VERSTER: That is because I have the information in front of me at this point and I've already answered it, I answered it several times.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you see, I am going to put to you that at the time that you gave your evidence you already knew that Mr van Zyl and others had made statements to the - had made statements which were available to the Commission, that you were guilty of attempted murder or conspiracy of murder of these two persons.  So that in admitting it, you were not protecting anybody - or rather, in denying it you were protecting no-one other than yourself.

MR VERSTER: I have already explained what the circumstances were, you may have your own opinion.  I told you exactly what the circumstances were at that stage.  Just in addition, Chairperson, there was a process where they started talking about amnesty and general amnesty and we still relied upon the amnesty approach that is current for soldiers within Act 44/57, and there was no other way, no protection from any other side for the reasons that I have already mentioned.  So based on that, I did this and I also changed it.  In other words, I specifically changed to be able to get to the truth and 90% of what I am telling you at this point can be found in documentation.  Even this documentation we asked for because we were wrongfully under the impression that privilege worked like this.  It is not asked from Mr Bizos, it came from us.  So 90% of what I have said here this morning is in writing.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why don't you answer my question?  Do you agree that your denial that you were guilty of conspiracy or attempted murder of Evans and Omar, was to your personal advantage at that time?

MR VERSTER: Naturally I deny it, and obviously I will deny that it was just about me.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, I didn't say only, I said do you agree that it was to your personal advantage?

MR VERSTER: I deny it.

GEORGE BIZOS: You thought that there would no advantage to you if you denied that you were guilty of conspiracy or attempted murder of these two, is that what you are denying?

MR VERSTER: I was playing for time, Chairperson, to be able to find out what was happening with the regions and what the plan was of the Defence Force, with the CCB, were we all going to be locked up, what were they busy doing, were they busy bribing the members of Region 6?  I was playing for time to be able to gain information so that I can make a better ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If I could just ask a question on this point - sorry, Mr Bizos to interrupt you.  Why didn't you just take the attitude of saying "I refuse to answer that question"?  If something was put to you which inculpated you before the Harms Commission, why not just say "it's inculpatory, I refuse to answer", rather than saying something that was false?

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, before the witness answers, perhaps there's something in the record that I should just draw his attention to.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) there's a conditional - if it is so, then I would ask for privilege, if it is so.  I think that we can proceed on that basis, Mr Chairman.  It is on the record, I have seen it.  If it is so, then I would ask for ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.

MR LAX: Just alert us to the reference, it would be quite helpful.

MR WESSELS: Page 1630.

MR VERSTER: Chairperson, in terms of this I did say that if there was something like this, that I would then ask for privilege, but I would like to add that the reason why I acted like this, if I think back now it is probably due to the uncertainty because there was no definite point of view, certainly not from my direct head, there was no definite point of view from the Chief of the Defence Force and I acted under the circumstances as I had thought it good, so that I could survive.  Unfortunately I have no better answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, you can continue.

GEORGE BIZOS: You told us that you lied, that came very much later in your evidence.  We are still on page 1561, we'll see how you behaved later.  At the time when you told this lie that we're dealing with on page 1561, and which you persisted in that it was not a lie until this morning, you said you were playing for time.  Are we to say that you are a person who in order to gain time you are prepared to commit perjury?  Which you did on your own version before the Commission, in order to play for time.

MR VERSTER: I do not agree that up until this morning I avoided it, I said expressly Chairperson, that there was a transition time.  Unfortunately I do not have the facts at my disposal regarding at which stage this transition time that I had started to talk to Region again and where they reminded me of exactly what happened.  I did not have files like you have in front of you, or documentation, because I was isolated.  And when they presented it to you and they told me what they had and then I said "well in that case, I will have to stand by the region and I'll have to admit to ..."  ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: But you know there is such a vast difference between just reconnoitring persons and agreeing and making money available to have them killed and provide poisons and money for the persons that were going to do the killing.  Do you say that you didn't remember these things when you lied on page 1561?

MR VERSTER: No, this is not what I'm saying, I've already given you reasons, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but I don't understand what the documents had to do with it.  You know, Mr Verster, I want to appeal to you to at least try now in your own interests, to answer honestly.  You tell us that you were playing for time and that you didn't have documents, I am asking you, did you need documents or time to distinguish, a person with a university degree, to distinguish between monitoring and providing guns and poison in order to kill people?  Did you need time or documents a year after the event to remember that?  Please answer that question.