bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-05-22

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Vuyani, thank you very much for coming to share with us your story.  It has touched many of us, but what I find interesting in your story is that you were busy doing the things that young people do.  You were playing, watching soccer when this incident happened.  You were engaged in an activity that is expected of young people to be involved with and doing that you had to experience this incident and loose the sight in your eye, in your one eye, but I also noted in your story telling that you are the kind of person that takes initiative.  You and your friends were busy cleaning up the field, taking away the rubbish and creating a space where you could play.  It was something that is meant to be for young people, that young people should have places to play and that you should not have been removing rubbish, but you and your friends have taken that initiative to do that so that you could have a space to play.  So we really want to thank you for being somebody who has been involved in taking up those kinds of initiatives and involving yourselves in the community in which you live, but also thank you for reminding us that we need to be involved with other people and we need to connect with other people so that we can feel supported by them especially when we are feeling that we have, injustices have been perpetrated against us.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, we will now break for lunch.  Please can I ask you to leave your headsets on your seats and we will reconvene at a quarter to two sharp.  Thank you.  Please stand while the witnesses leave the room.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

MS MKHIZE: Can I just really, can I just ask people to cooperate with us.  Please take a seat sir.

DR RANDERA: Mr Molekane, thank you very much for coming.   You've come all the way from Cape Town today and I understand you have to be back in Cape Town by this evening, your flight is at 6:15, so we don't have much time with you.  Professor Piet Meiring is going to be helping you.
 Before he does that, can you please stand to take the oath?

MR MOLEKANE: (sworn states)

PROF MEIRING: Mr Molekane, from my side too, thank you for being with us and please tell us what happened to you, the story, the incidents you want to report in your own words, in your own time.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

MS MKHIZE: Fatima, thank you very much for coming forward.  What you have said, I should think it is very, very important for us because sometimes it is overwhelming to hear about stories of young people in big number, who were exposed to atrocities, then we begin to ask questions as to whether are we realistic to expect these young people to go through a rehabilitation process and begin to function as well-adjusted adults, but based on what you are saying, it is like with resources and the capacity, it is important for people to heal and function reasonably well.  So thank you very much.
 As Professor Meiring has said it will be important again for you to help our Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee in finalising its recommendation to try to incorporate some of your ideas.

FATIMA MOOSA: Thank you.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.  In closing, I don't know whom to thank, because most people we meant to thank at the end, has left but we have the Wits Choral Society which I should think, it is appropriate for them to close immediately after one of their faculty members had had a say regarding what should be done in dealing with the injuries of the past and I would, before I ask them to come forward, I would really like to thank all the people who made it possible, especially the young people, those of you who were here at lunch time, you saw how young people got into roles, most of them weren't even born in 1976, but as they were acting our pasts, they got into those roles and they started crying so we really thank all the young people who cooperated with us and shared at a deeper level about their understanding of our past.
 We know and we understand how risky that is in the sense that it makes one, it is like exposing yourself to a lot of pain.  Also people who made submissions, most people who made submissions today, are not people who are writing this is an academic exercise, it is people who got involved because of their concern as people.  We heard from the Colemans, Di Scott who shared about her decision even to go into exile, and Majory Nkomo and many other young people whom I wouldn't mention now, so we also thank all those people who also made submissions for the risk they took in sharing about their difficult childhood in this country.
 Also I would like to thank the interpreters for their patience, since they have been with us since this morning and people who assisted us even with this venue and of course the Wits Choral Society for the support they have given us.  And then I would ask us to be on record to have closed officially the children's hearings.  Over to you then, thank you.
WITS CHORAL SOCIETY CLOSES THE CHILDREN'S HEARING.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

MS MKHIZE: Okay, thank you very much Christene for coming forward.  You are representing young people who went through a massacre which happened at that time when South Africa was moving towards democracy and as a result it shocked the whole country and the world.
 In Dr Coleman's presentation, it is reflected that in the 17th of June 1992, of the 45 who died in Boipatong, 16 were women, including pregnant women and 9 were children, including two babies.
 So you have come forward to represent that community, to share with us the pain that young people were exposed to and we thank you very  much.
 Having had an opportunity to interact with you, we are hoping that that community will benefit through your courage of coming forward and we will be thought of as we negotiate community based reparation and rehabilitation programmes.  Thank you, very much.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

MS MKHIZE: I will ask George Ndlozi to come forward please.  George Ndlozi.   George, I would like to welcome you and I would ask you to stand up and take the oath.

GEORGE NDLOZI: (sworn states)

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much.  Dr Randera is going to assist you in presenting your story, thank you.

DR RANDERA: George thank you very much for coming here today and for being so patient.  You are taking us to that period that Dr Coleman has referred to as the period of destabilisation, 1990 to 1994.
 You have come to talk about the youth of Katorus, the East Rand and I referred earlier on again through his document a quotation which said that 49 percent of deaths that took place in that period, took place in that area.
 The time is yours, George, I know you have done, this is part of an investigation you have done in the area, many of the people you mention, you know yourself.  We know that it has been a very painful process for you, but you are going to give us an insight into what was happening to young people in the area and what happened to them as they joined the Self Defence Units in the East Rand, thank you very much.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

MS MKHIZE: While George is leaving, I will ask Mr Molekane to come forward please.  Mr Molekane.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-05-22

WENDY ORR: Before I ask Glenda to thank you for presenting this statement to us, I just want to emphasise one point in the statement which is that young people spurred on those older than themselves to rejoin the fight for their freedom.  They successfully galvanised a nation.  I think those of us of more mature years, to put it euphemistically, often find the zealousness and enthusiasm of young people difficult to deal with, but I want to encourage all young people here to be zealous and enthusiastic and to spur us on and to remind us adults of our responsibility constantly and without fail.  Glenda.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much to the three of you for presenting a very long and complex statement and you did your task very, very superbly and we really deeply want to thank you for coming here today.  Thank you very much.

WENDY ORR: I would like to welcome the choir from Fezeke School in Guguletu.  We are going to ask you to sing for us immediately after tea.   There is going to be a slight change in the programme in that we are going to take the first witness now, then break for tea and take the submission from Molo Songololo after the Fezeke Choir has sung for us.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-05-22

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Glenda.  It remains for me to finally thank all the people who have made this hearing happen.  I am not going to name names, because I am bound to forget someone, but to everyone who has contributed in any way, big or small, to these hearings I want to say a very, very warm thank you.  I think people do not, often do not understand the huge amount of work that goes into preparing a hearing.  All the backroom work, the pre-hearing work, the post-hearing work and I want to express my very sincere appreciation for all the staff and people who are not our staff, but who have still given of their time and dedication.  I want to thank those of you who have attended, who have taken time out to sit through what is often a very difficult thing to do and finally to the witnesses.  Hearings cannot happen without you.  You are very special people, you are very brave to come and share your experiences and on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission I thank you from the bottom of my heart.  Will the audience stand as the witnesses leave the room.
Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-05-22

CHAIRPERSON: The next witness is Julian Stubbs and I ask him to come up to the stage with his briefer.  Julian, good afternoon, welcome to you.  Thank you for coming here today.  You were also a member of the group which has come to be known as the Wynberg Seven and before I facilitate your evidence I will ask Mary Burton to swear you in.

MARY BURTON: Are you willing to take the oath.

JULIAN STUBBS: Yes.

MARY BURTON: Please will you stand and raise your right hand.

JULIAN STUBBS: (Duly sworn in, states).

MARY BURTON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Julian, this really is your story, it is for you to tell so I am going to hand over to you.  If perhaps you can just tell us a little bit of the background, as Dee did, leading up to the 15th of October and then what happened that day and what happened to you specifically as a consequence.
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, this particular session, presentation, is going to go on for about 25, your submissions will go on for about 25 minutes, and then we will allow a degree of interaction and that process will be managed by Chief Magizela.  Thank you very much.  Over to you Sir.
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Gagiano, you've raised very important and critical issues and issues that I think should be debated continuously if we want to shape a new ethos of morality in our country.
 We will not open the debates to the audience at this stage until perhaps at a later stage, maybe after Mr Koen has spoken.  We would like to try and preserve time.  
 So at this point we will ask Professor Seegers to respond please.  Thank you.
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Cleminshaw welcome from my side also.  I don't know what is in the submission, is there some autobiography things about - so you needn't tell us about Peter Moll, it will be in the submission.  Maybe you can start by, one or two sentences, why were you chosen to read his statement and then please proceed with the statement.
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

PROF MEIRING: Ms Clemenshaw, Dot if I may call you so, thank you so much.  You have brought us a very important story, a submission we needed to hear because Peter speaks for a number of people, as you said at the end. Thank you so much for your testimony.  We won't ask of you to answer for Peter, questions.  It was important that his testimony was on the table before us.  Thank you for bringing it to us, we will of course communicate with him but if you write to him, if you speak to him please send our best wishes too, as we will do ourselves. Thank you for being with us and it was an honour to have you here with us today.

MS CLEMENSHAW: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Dot and thank you Piet.  Yes I'm thinking now about Pete Moll.  Peter is very well connected to the world-wide web so he is going to communicate with us through that but thank you, it was very wonderful that you could come. We appreciate it that even in your not so great health you could come.  Thank you very much.
 We would like to call now Dr Ivan Toms and Mr Richard Steele.  For some reason the programmes are different but anyway that is what is on the programme. Could Ivan and Richard please come up.  They will share a session, they will not speak simultaneously but they they are going to share a session. Dr Wendy Orr.
EXPERIENCES OF CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS

WENDY ORR: Thank you Pumla.  I'd like you to give me a few moments, indulgence just to explain to people that what I'm wearing on my lapel is not the insignia of some strange sect or cult but is in fact a gift from my niece who is four years old, who said to me that I always look so sad on TV so she wanted to give me something to brighten up my life, so CoCo this is for you. 
 Enough about myself.  Richard, Ivan, welcome, thank you very much for being here today. You have stories to tell us of your own experiences as conscientious objectors and the consequences that those had for your lives and probably still have for your lives.  Richard I'd like to ask you to start and then we'll hand over to Ivan to tell us his story.
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

WENDY ORR: Richard thank you very much.  It's obvious that for you going back through your diary and those notes that you kept during those times has been painful and we thank you very much for the courage of doing that and for coming forward to share those notes and those memories and those observations with us.  I am also tremendously pleased and grateful that you have found this to be a liberating and positive experience, because that really is what we hope Truth Commission hearings will be for witnesses.
 With the Chairperson's permission I would like to move straight on to Ivan.  Ivan you spent time, not in detention barracks but in Pollsmoor Prison as a result of the stand you took and you now have an opportunity to share with us your experience.
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

WENDY ORR: Ivan thank you.  I have so many things which I would like to say but I know there is not time.  Perhaps just a few things, to you and Richard, although we think that we are big and brave and have dealt with and got over issues, revisiting past pain is still very painful and I want to say thank you to both of you for doing that for us today, and for doing it in such an honest, open and sincere way.
 Ivan I really identify with your turmoil over the dual obligation issue as a doctor.  You know that I too faced that and I think if there is anything we can do in terms of development in the health sector is to help doctors deal with those issues, because it is horrendous when you are asked to do things which are against your principles as a professional.
 Finally to say that I think being called an "opstoker" is actually a badge of honour rather than something to be ashamed of and I think there are quite a few "opstokers" in this room and may we carry on "stoking op".  Thank you very much to both of you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Wendy for those words, and thanks to you both.  We are going to have Gary Koen talk about post-traumatic stress disorder, and I think this is a very important point to bring in that discussion.  It's very clear that there is still a lot of pain that is carried by people who came into very close contact with the experience of conscription and tried to resist it.  And even those people who resisted conscription seem to have been traumatised by the way they were treated for standing up to their conscience.  But thank you very much Ivan and Richard.  Gary would you come up please.
 This is Gary Koen and Gary is going to open up the discussion for us on the relationship between post-traumatic stress disorder and conscription.  Thank you Gary and welcome.
PTSD AND CONSCRIPTS

MR KOEN: Alright.  Must I just proceed.  I have prepared something.  The way I am going to structure my presentation ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Gary, can I just mention that Dr Wendy Orr is going to facilitate your presentation.
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

WENDY ORR: Gary thank you, I have no questions.  Just a few comments.  Firstly I feel that as you were describing the symptoms of post traumatic stress disorder, very many people in this room recognise those symptoms either in themselves or their brothers or their friends, their husbands, their boyfriends. Which leads me to realise that there are so many damaged and injured young men amongst others in this country who have been really very severely damaged by the experience of conscription and which leaves us with an immense challenge of what we do to heal that damage. That's one of the challenges that faces not only the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, but all or us and thank you for presenting that challenge to us today.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Gary.  We are going to break for lunch and we will resume the sessions at 12H55. But perhaps at this point just to mention that we have heard a number of submissions from ex-conscripts and with all of them there is this sense of helplessness and one can almost feel this crying out that someone must listen, I  want to talk to someone. Many of these people feel that noone wants to listen, noone understands their experience and  there is this very deep sadness that nothing can be done about their experience, and I think Wendy is right to say that this is an immense challenge. Post traumatic stress disorder in particular, is not an easy condition to control and to treat.  Perhaps this is why it's been ignored. Perhaps mental health specialists are avoiding dealing with it because they know they are going to be opening up a can of worms. I think you're right to say, Gary that those who hope to help in this regard have got to sharpen their personnel because there is a lot out there judging by the statements that we have received and by the number of people who just wanted to talk, who were not ready to make statements but simply because they heard the Commission was going to attend to this issue. They just wanted someone on the other end of the phone who will hear them and it's a pity that many of those voices will pale into the silence that has characterised the history of conscription.
 We will break for lunch and I would like people to return here at 12H55. The submission that follows after that will begin at 1 o'clock.  There's another one, a very brief one at 12H55, though I would invite people to come back as soon as they can. Thank you very much.   
HEARING ADJOURNS
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: One's impression and one's feeling isnot to fill the space with words because your words were powerfulenough to give us lots and lots of food for thought and that thosethoughts would in a sense assuage the famine that you referredto.  You've moved us deeply and thank you very much for your presentation.

CHAIRPERSON: : Thank you Glenda and thank you Tim not tofill the space with words, yes you are right Glenda.
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Can we call upon Professor Johan Hattinghto come up please.  Dr Wendy Orr is going to facilitate ProfessorHattingh.

WENDY ORR: Thank you Pumla.  Welcome to you Professor Hattinghwe're very grateful for your participation in these hearings,submissions, discussions, conversations to-day.  You've givenus a very full statement and in the interest of time I'd liketo ask you to highlight those issues which you feel are most importantand relevant but perhaps before you start that if you could tellus a little bit about yourself, what you do to-day and then moveinto your involvement in the defence force.
EX-CAPTAIN IN THE CITIZENS FORCE
Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

PROF MEIRING: I think perhaps if we can leave it at thatand maybe there will be come time for discussion afterwards andmaybe you can feed in some of the additional information you havein reaction to questions that may come from the floor.
 May I at this stage say thank you ever so much for being withus and sharing this with us.  We are really privileged that wedo not end under a cloud to-day but that there's hope and thereare things being done, we really appreciate that.  
 Don't leave your seat stay in front of the mike.  Doctor WendyOrr will conduct the next session which will be a few momentsin a vis a vis for questions, answers and discussion.
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning! Will you please rise?

UNKNOWN: Let us pray. God our Father, we come before you as your children. We thank   you that you have made us in your image and said that we are sisters and brothers   of one another, members of one family, your family, the human family. Sin has   separated us for so long, we thank you for the inspiration that you have given   to so many to struggle for justice, goodness and truth. Whatever our faith,   whatever our denomination. 
We request your presence and pray for all those who will be giving testimony   here. Please touch their lips and hearts Lord; so that everything they say here   can have a great contribution to promote peace and love in our country. We ask   you to be with us and give us your blessings. Give us power in our country so   that people can really see that we are your children and we have your blessings.   Please fill the hearts of thy faithful people and kindle in them the fire of   thy love. Send forth thy spirit and thy shalt renew the face of the earth. Amen. 
Please sit. It is a very, very great privilege to welcome you all here.
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: We resume now and we want to welcome the presiding Bishop of the   Methodist Church, Bishop Mgume Dandala and the Secretary of Conference and there   arewill you want to introduce? I just want to inform the hearing that   Bishop Dandala cut short a visit to Rome where he was part of a delegation of   the World Methodist Council which was engaged in bilateral conversations with   the Vatican and we want to express our appreciation that you were willing to   have done that. Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: I am with the Reverend Vivian Harris who is the Executive   Secretary of the Methodist Church and Secretary of Conference and also behind   me here as requested by the Chairperson, I would like to introduce three of   our Bishops who come from this region Bishop Simon Gubule of the Queenstown   district, Bishop Alec Diko of the Grahamstown district and Bishop Dabula of   the ...[inaudible] district, together with the vice-chairpersons from their   synods.

KHOZA MGOJO: Can I ask you and Viv Harris to take the oath please? Could you   please rise?
ADMINISTERS OATH.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. It's over to you.
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

DAVID WANLESS: If I could just add to that within our own church life   we must freely admit that in all the racial groups there are congregations,   communities, where the work of this commission is a non-event, or in fact where   it is regarded as being destructive, but I think that there are sufficient of   our ministers and leaders who are committed to the whole process of reconciliation,   which after all, is a very christian word. And as the church's media officer   and the editor of its journal, certainly my commitment is that from this kind   of gathering, the message needs to go out that because we have been reconciled   by God's action and Jesus Christ, we have got to be reconciled to one another.   The most biblical word of all is what you're doing, and that's remembering.   It sums up the Old Testament, it's at the heart of the christian eucharist   remember. And by the telling of certain stories, we can't hear all the stories,   but if I know that someone else's story has been told, then my story of hurt   has been told. And I think that's got to be our commitment of all the churches,   that we have got to remember and repent and be watchful.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I have sort of ritually to look to my right   and left, just so that they don't feel I am leaving them out, but I am in fact   leaving them out. I want again just to say that somehow we hope that what is   happening here can be communicated to our people. It is not easy, but I mean   the mood, the texture of the moment - it's not always the words, it's the gestures,   the tone of voice, the things that get to touch hearts. Of course we are the   incarnational and so it is ultimately human beings who have to keep communicating   and we hope that somehow what has been happening here today will in fact get   communicated to people out there just for them to know that this is a very,   very large part of what we are about. Thank you very much. The lastReformed   Presbyterian Church.
I am sorry that to some extent you have to speak to a slightly reduced audience.   But know that what you are saying is going to form part of ourthe transcript   and the record of what has taken place here and a fair degree of it is also   going out through the electronic media, so I just want to apologise that maybe   we have been over ambitious in the number of submissions that we thought we   could do. We may have to consider reducing the time fairly drastically so that   people can also speak to a fuller hall. Thank you. Who is leading there? Dr   Khabela. Are all three going to be speaking? You will be so will you please   all rise and take the oath administered by
ADMINISTERS OATH.
Thank you very much. Dr Khabela?
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

MOULANA DR FARIED ESACK: I certainly think that religious communities in South Africa   as a whole, I think that the TRC as a commission, ought to take a far firmer   and challenging position on this. In a very direct way, you've got to go to   not only Muslim businesses, Jewish businesses and business is business. Business   has got no religious colour whatsoever. To go to these people and say that   Look, this is what you have done. As a community of Muslim businessmen or as   a community of Jewish businessmen, you have complicity in the past, look at   your palatial mansions and just look on the other side of the road and look   at the ghettos on the other side of the road or the railway line or whatever.   People, as Dr Alan Boesak has always said, people are starving, people are dying   of under eating, because other people are dying from over eating. And so the   point that I want to make is this, Reverend Mgojo, you need to go to those communities   and confront them directly head on and irrespective of how much they claim to   have suffered in the past, and say here we are, this is a fund that we are setting   up. If you believe that you have benefited from ill begotten gains, put your   money where your mouth lies, if not the TRC should in its own final report go   for any particular community or any group of people with vested interests who   have not participated actively or aren't willing to come on board, such an initiative.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very, very much. And thank you about all those religious   leaders who are Commissioners. Nothank you. You have been as provocative   as always and we are always and we are enormously grateful to you Faried. Mr   Trikamjee? Welcome and thank you very much for being here and your patience   since yesterday. Bongani Finca will administer the oath or the affirmation as   you wish.
ADMINISTERS OATH.
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

UNKNOWN: My last question then is could you indicate what you as the   Hindu community would contribute concretely towards reconciliation in this country.   In this post apartheid country of ours?

UNKNOWN: You know, the whole approach of Hinduism as I pointed   out in the presentation is one of non-violence and tolerance and we feel that   that is basically the road you're going to go through, we have to go through   that road again. I hate to echo what my predecessor emotionally and strongly   submitted earlier on, that's my brother from the Muslim community, about the   bitterness that seems to still prevail in people. I think that that's something   that we've got to get rid of because we can't go on a reconciliation if we still   harbour levels of bitterness. But I think that your commission will have a two   fold purpose. As Hindus we feel that firstly, you've got to remove the bitterness   that exists and you can only do so by what you're doing quite correctly and   that is getting the truth out into the open. As far as reconciliation is concerned,   the Hindu community's approach is a very simple one and that's the level of   tolerance of all of us. It is something that we are born with and if we can   pursue you to try and inculcate in your report which we don't doubt is going   to be the most important document that is going to help this country towards   a proper reconciliation. Inculcate in it the whole question of tolerance for   the future, then I think that you will go a long way. So the Hindu community   is there to pursue, preach and practice that level of tolerance. We do so, because   our scriptures teach us that on a daily basis. So it's very easy for us to tell   our communities out there what we mean by tolerance. I hope I have helped you   in some way.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Trikamjee. You seem to pin your hopes on the report   that will finally come out of the Truth Commission. You have mentioned it a   number of times. Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Maybe I should tell you why. Maybe it's because I havethis   is the second time that I am appearing, making submissions before your commission.   As a lawyer I made a submission on behalf of the lawyers, and that's why I keep   talking about your final report. 
Despite what others say, I remain very, very optimistic about not only the   quality and the content, but the impact of your report. I have complete confidence   in you.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we should get you to come a bit more frequently. But thank   you very, very much indeed, we are very deeply grateful and we are grateful   for the contribution that your community has made to the country. Thank you   very much.
We call on the representatives of the Bahai'i, Zephete? Welcome, and would   youyou are Mr Zephete? And you will introduce your colleagues?

MR Z ZITANDELE: She is Mrs Vera Razavi, a member of the Bahai community here   in East London.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. And will you take the oath or the affirmation?   Bongani Finca will do that.
ADMINISTERS OATH.
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: My dear brother, I don't want to interrupt your wonderful eloquentbut   those poor dears who are trying to interpret are finding it a little difficult   to keep up
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

ARCHBISHOP T W NTONGANA: Thank you. During the time of apartheid, it was very   difficult for us because we served people on grassroots level. We work with   people on grassroots level. Humble people, people who are illiterate. However,   their churches are very big, they live in shacks. We hold churches in tents,   in schools in our houses, in our garages. We take out our cars and we hold a   congregation in the garage. This is the type of people we work with. 
Our gratitude mostly goes to the SACC without them we would not have been able   to get anywhere. We used to be beaten up. We would gather as a congregation   and we would be beaten up. We were labelled communists. We would be labelled   all sorts of names that I cannot use today, because we no longer use such names.   It was very difficult. It was hard. They tell us this is not a church. Until   our own people who were members of other churches would look down at us and   talk terribly. Lastly, we ask for forgiveness for not having fought in the struggle,   for not having been beaten up, detained and killed. Fight with the flesh and   not the bible. We should have stood up for our people. We are cowards and we   admit it. We are cowards because we did not stand up and fight. Some of us were   taken and became informers and were used by the past system as we continued   to struggle and hunger. I have my own example as I am going to write in my submission,   Sicelo Hlomo and the rest, I could not even go to their graves. They referred   to them as activists. We referred to their funerals as political funerals, therefore   I was not allowed to go to those funerals.
I thank the parties that sheltered us, SACC, ICT, SABC and also the Anglican   Church has always been there for us. It was not difficult to stand out at the   time instead of what you believed in because there was a law saying if it's   you, your wife, your child, the three of you are gathering illegally. You could   not utter the words "the government" whatever you were going to say,   whether you were going to say it's a righteous government or an ill government,   you could not even utter "the government". I am going to use the late   President, Jomo Kanyata from Kenya's words. I was there the last week of August.   He said "To those that I have sinned against, I ask for forgiveness."   He did not say that those who have sinned against me must ask for forgiveness.   Please continue Mr Chairperson with your commission. My request is that this   commission must not end before the 1999 elections. That is my request. That   is our request as CAIC. The gentleman next to me is going to talk about our   church and the formation. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Archbishop.
REV.
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

UNKNOWN: Thank you. I will now ask a question that any of you may answer.   I will continue to speak in Zulu. I hope you understand me. Now that you were   successful in leaving the white churches because of the oppression that you   experienced, I would like to know is there something substantial that you are   doing in your churches now that reflects the fact that you realised that you   were oppressed. What are you doing within the communities to reflect the way   you perceive things.

ARCHBISHOP T W NTONGANA: When you talk about the community I am very glad.   If you go to the depths of Soweto even a cat will tell you where Ntongana's   house is, because I wanted these people to come and fetch me, even though I   was scared for my family, I wanted to stand up and these people to come and   fetch me. If you read the New Nation in 1985 or 86, I wrote an article there.   It was in English. I said "If Jesus Christ was here on earth today, he   would be in prison." I have this article at home. I am part of the community.   I stand for the community. Nothing goes on in Soweto without my knowledge. There   is only one thing that our churches cannot handle. Our Bishops do not want to   raise funds. They want ready money for themselves, they want other people to   raise money and they enjoy that money. If you don't raise funds, how are you   going to enjoy money, you'll be stealing other people's efforts. I have answered   you.
go to PART 2
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: I do want to express our appreciation to you for accepting our   invitation and we know the contribution that you have made in the time of the   struggle and in sharpening people's perceptions and insights, theological insights   but also thank you very much for your graciousness in agreeing to come in at   the end of the day, tired, when you were expecting to be called tomorrow. Thank   you very much. Over to you.
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I suspect that my colleagues here would have   wanted to ask more questions but I'm going to be a little ruthless and say that   some of the people you have mentioned as members of your Alliance, are in fact   going to be coming forward to make presentations, so the questions that might   be asked can be put to them.
But what I did want to say is, I don't know about any other people but I've   been very deeply moved by your presentation, deeply moved by the remarkable   humility of your candour and I would hope that this - since you are such influential   people with a very influential constituency, that the spirits that you have   yourselves shown here would be one that could then be reflected amongst your   membership because if that is the case, then in a real sense we don't have to   worry.
Yes, we've got problems in this country but if what you are saying is something   that is beginning to permeate a very important section of our community, then   I am even more hopeful than I was earlier and want to give thanks to God that   the Holy Spirit of God convicts us in the kind of way that it has convicted   all of us. 
And we want to express our very deep appreciation to you because it is never   easy to say "I am sorry" and to have to say it in the glare of this   kind of publicity is even more difficult and it means that you have received   excesses of grace that are extraordinary and we give thanks to God for yourselves.   Thank you very much.
We are going to take a break - we are running a little late, but let's go and   drink tea all of us and we'll return in 15 minutes time - about half past.

CHAIRPERSON: Hallo, hallo, we have to show people that we can actually listen.   We now want to call on Ray McCauley and your team. We want to welcome you very   warmly and you will introduce your colleagues and thereafter my colleague here   will administer the oath or affirmation and then you will have a short ...[indistinct]. 
We've got 30 minutes in total and so your submission should be something in   the order of about 20 minutes to give us about 10 minutes for the question and   answer session, so if you will please introduce your colleagues.
PASTOR McCAULEY Thank you very much Archbishop, I'd like to introduce - on   my left is Pastor Mosa, the Vice President of the International Federation of   Christian Churches, Ron Steele, one of our Pastors, Pastor Chris Lodewyk, who   is the General Secretary of our organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Gentlemen, you are welcome, will you please   stand? I assume that all four of you will at one time or another speak, so -   Bongani Finca please?
RHEMA BIBLE CHURCH/

IFCC: (sworn states)
Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Professor Swanepoel. Professor Venter?
Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-17

WENDY ORR: While the Archbishop is greeting Professor Folb I just want to show you the number of messages of support we've received from around the world and I am going to try and read some of them over the next few days.
 The first and perhaps the most important is from President Mandela himself.  He sends his best wishes for the success and positive outcome of the hearings.  
 We have one from the Department of Psychology at the Orange Free State saying,
"We sincerely hope that your efforts will succeed in healing this wounded and ailing community of ours".
 And one from the Psychology Department at Potchefstroom University which says,
"May the hearings related to Health Sector involvement in past human rights violations be a constructive process of facilitating structural and individual healing, increased affirmation of human rights in service delivery and a vigorous commitment to enhance the quality of health care".
 We will hear more messages as the days proceed.  
SUBMISSION BY MILITARY MEDIC

WENDY ORR: I now call Sean Callaghan to give evidence.  Sean thank you for being here, I know you have travelled all the way from Durban to be with us today.  You and I have spoken before.  This really is your story and I admire you tremendously for your courage in coming forward to tell it.  You were a conscript in the South African Defence Force in 1982 and 1983 and served as a medic.  Before you give your evidence I am going to ask you to take the oath or the affirmation, which would you prefer?

SEAN MARK CALLAGHAN: (sworn states)

WENDY ORR: Sean please go ahead and tell us your story in your own words.
Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-17

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Dr Klatzow.  Thank you for bringing a forensic perspective on some of the matters that this Commission is seized with.  And bringing into contention the situation about the administration of justice which is another issue that will receive attention from the Commission.  Once again, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Denzil.  Any questions?  Thank you very much Dr Klatzow.  We have to be even-handed and we have found in the submissions that have come before us and the testimonies of different people that there has been a pattern such as the one that you are describing, and all we can hope for is that those who make the laws in this New South Africa will take very seriously into account what did happen when considerable power was vested in a few hands, where a concentration of power led to its abuse.  Thank you.
 We should have broken at one o'clock.  It's just past quarter past one and so I think we should maybe - quarter past - let us try - she has to be obeyed says two o'clock.  We will try and be back at two.  Those with blue and yellow stickers, unfortunately budgetary constraints make it impossible for us to have an African feast and so we have to engage in the invidious thing of inviting only a few people, those with blue and yellow stickers please the seventh floor and we will resume here at two o'clock.  Thank you very much
HEARING ADJOURNS
EXPERIENCE OF A TOWNSHIP DOCTOR
ON RESUMPTION

MS MKHIZE: Dr Bletcher I would like to welcome you.  Before you give your submission would you take the oath.

MARK BLETCHER: (sworn states)

MS MKHIZE: Your submission takes us back to peoples' experiences before people were detained,  work which was done in the townships.  Would you start.
Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-17

WENDY ORR: If I may abuse my position as the Chair and say Solly that as you were presenting and talking about the kinds of unusual diagnosis that were made on Black patients, that were made on Black patients who were in solitary confinement, again as I had access to files in the Department of Justice, I looked at the file of one detainee who had been kept in solitary confinement for many months and was showing severe stress and was diagnosed in 1986 by a district surgeon as having "Bantu hysteria", which I am sure has never appeared in DSM Classification whatsoever.   Thank you very much to both of you for coming and sharing your experiences.  We will be continuing this exploration of academic institutions when we hear perhaps a different side of the story when people from UND, Wits and the University of Pretoria will be making submissions.   Thank you very much.

WENDY ORR: I would like to announce that the Medical Association of South Africa has very graciously and kindly agreed to defer their submission to tomorrow morning so that we can perhaps catch up with ourselves a little bit.  I asked them if they would do this, not in any way out of disrespect or discourtesy, but because we feel that their submission is very important and I think people have had a long day and are tired and if we had to continue until six or seven we wouldn't be able to do credit to those submissions which we still have to hear.  But this does mean that we start at 08H30 tomorrow morning, not at nine o'clock as advertised.
A DOCTOR WHO RESISTED
 I'd like to move on now to a presentation by Professor Frances Ames, whom we are greatly honoured to have with us today.  She is a stalwart of resistance to human rights abuses and standing up for human rights of patients and we really do welcome her most warmly to our hearings.  Frances, Dr Mapula Ramashala will be leading your evidence.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Professor Ames good afternoon.  It is indeed refreshing to see a woman as one of the presenters.  One might think by seeing blue suits and white ties that this war was fought only be men.  May I express my appreciation that you also will be presenting, not so much as a woman, let's not highlight that, but as a participant on the right side of the war.  Please proceed.
Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-17

WENDY ORR: Order please.

GEN M KNOBEL: .... with the aim of creating the correct atmosphere when shaping characters of men and women.
 Madam Chair if the audience would like us to show we can have a sing-song after this meeting.
 In 1989 it was decided to embark on annual community singing project in the Medical Service of the Defence Force.  The Project was registered as a nation-building Project with the primary aim of creating harmony in body, soul and spirit amongst all the members of the South African Medical Service through the harmony created by music and song.
 Project Harmonia would further create opportunities for both individuals and groups to cultivate feelings of patriotism, pride, devotion, positivity and assert confidence, encourage self-discipline, integrity and selflessness, provide opportunities for enjoyment and relaxation; improve self-image and productivity; encourage inspiration and motivation and ensure loyalty and support and involvement; enhance feelings of camaraderie, cohesion and cooperation and overcome uncertainty, fear and discouragement.
 Madam Chair, if you consider that in the Defence Force we have no less than 125 religious denominations, we have all languages, all cultures, all population groups and both males and females, then this Project has a very major role to play in creating cohesion.  Over the last nine years it has made very definite contribution to cohesion and spirit within the National Defence Force.

WENDY ORR: General Knobel I am sorry to interrupt you but we are very pressed for time, so could I please ask you to sum up within the next few minutes so that we can move into questions, because we do have many of those.