Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-12

CHAIRPERSON: I think there's a difference between a political motive and a political objective but what we are trying to ascertain from him is what political objective was sought to be achieved by him in committing the offences for which he seeks amnesty.

MR LEOPENG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you must be very specific, you must speak of the objective and not the motive.

MR LEOPENG: What was your political objective.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It was to save Westbury, the coloured community, free from the oppression from the police and to continue with our political organisation.

MR LEOPENG: Was that all that you wanted to achieve?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LEOPENG: Is there anything that you wish to tell the Committee on your ...[indistinct] acts that you committed?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well I would ask the Commission to take my application into consideration and to the victims and their family I'm asking for forgiveness, I know it's hard for them to forgive me but I'm asking forgiveness today.  That's all I can say.  I'm sorry what happened on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst you are leading him in his evidence in chief Mr Leopeng, shouldn't you for the sake of completeness of his evidence in chief deal with the issue of robbery to which he has alluded in his application form on page 212?

MR LEOPENG: Yes Mr Plaatjies in your application for amnesty more so on page 212 you said the robbery of their jewellery was a mistake which you did not order and did not apply for amnesty.  What do you say about this?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day that wasn't the reason why I do not apply amnesty for it Mrs Chair, that wasn't part of the order I was given to and at the end of the day I never robbed anyone Mrs Chair.  The watch was handed over to me by a co-accused by the name of Tony Naidoo, the one who was discharged.

CHAIRPERSON: What items are to your knowledge involved in this crime of robbery?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Mrs Chair, on the day when they took the items out there was a watch and a bracelet, it was sold to someone at a shop.

MR LAX: Is that all?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It was actually two watches, that's why at the end of the day if Mrs Chair can look nicely, the watch was handed, it wasn't also sold to the same person because at the end of the day the watch was handed over to me because the watch and a bracelet was sold to some other guy.  It was two watches and one bracelet but in that possession I was only handed over one watch and I'm asking forgiveness for those things that happened.

CHAIRPERSON: And you kept the watch is it not so?  When you were arrested it was found in your possession?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes Mrs Chair, the watch was handed to me on a Friday, on the Saturday I went to a funeral so I didn't have much time to go back home because that same Saturday I was with Ashley Bashing but when he talk about a watch he told me also it wasn't part of the deal so that's why my application I stated it was a mistake and I'm very sorry about what happened about the watch.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you accept the watch when it was given to you when you knew that it was not to be part of the offence for which you were to commit on the two alleged security policemen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said Mr Chair, it's after we burned the car, the car was already set on fire.  As I said in my application it was a mistake, I'm sorry for accepting the watch.

CHAIRPERSON: I know you say it was a mistake, I'm saying why did you accept the watch when it was given to you?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Just to keep because I didn't want the guys to feel bad and at the end of the day I told them the time when I was accepting the watch, I told them it wasn't part of the order I was given.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would you not want them to feel bad about something that did not form part of your instructions, were you not a disciplined lot?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes I was disciplined Mrs Chair but at the end of the day there was nothing I could have done, I just took the watch, that's why I say it was a mistake, I felt bad also after I took it Mrs Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: There was nothing that you could have done but to take the watch?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes I felt bad that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Couldn't you refuse taking that watch knowing that it was not part of what you had to do?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes I could have refused it Mrs Chair but at the end of the day the point still comes I had took it, that's why I'm asking in my amnesty it was a mistake, I felt bad after I took it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that credit cards were also removed from the alleged Indian security policemen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That I heard in court but I never removed any credit cards, me myself that even, that day.  I never removed any cards, I heard it in court when they arrested us, charged us with cards involved.  I never took any cards, I never see any cards.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not present at all material times?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I was present.  Look, Mrs Chair, that evening, that day I was busy assaulting and torture those people, people who were torturing them, those guys at the end of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not like a commander?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Look Mrs Chair, that day it was - we just panicked that - it was like a panic that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not the commander?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes I was in charge but I couldn't say do what or who did what.  For example look like the watches Mrs Chair, I never saw they took any watches at that day.  Only after we burned out the car we found out people were robbed of their jewellery.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Leopeng, you may proceed.

MR LEOPENG: ...[inaudible] the Committee?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes Mr Leopeng.

MR LEOPENG: This is the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LEOPENG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Leopeng.  Ms Thabete do you have any questions to put to Mr Plaatjies?

MS THABETE: Yes Madame Chair, thank you.  Mr Plaatjies, you say you were given instructions by Mr Bashing.  Exactly what were the instructions given to you?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: The instructions was to eliminate those two Indians and get rid of them.

MS THABETE: Maybe you can clarify something for you, in your affidavit you say after being informed that the two Indian security policemen, it's on page 3, paragraph 3.6.  You say
"After being informed that the two Indian security policemen are looking for me, I took an initiative to eliminate them."

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes that was the order ...[intervention]

MS THABETE: I haven't asked the question.  My question is why didn't you specify here that Ashley actually told you to eliminate them, why do you say you took an initiative to eliminate them?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well maybe I was just in a hurry to write the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we are talking about a supplementary affidavit that has been handed up by your lawyer after consultation with you which affidavit I must state accords with the evidence contained in your application form on page 213 wherein you say you were "tipped off" by Ashley and you do not suggest that he instructed you.  Now we have your supplementary affidavit and we also have your application form.  In both documents you do not suggest that you were instructed to do anything?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Mrs Chair at the end of the day I would say I was instructed because at the end of the day I wouldn't haven't tell him if I wasn't instructed.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that, what Ms Thabete wants you to explain is how did you come to say something else and in your vive voce evidence you say something completely different?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Mrs Chair ...[indistinct]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, she has referred you to that affidavit and in particular to paragraph 3.6 on page 3.