Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

A J G ERWEE: Mr Chairperson, it is inexplicable to me why he makes such a statement.  He was aware that arrests were to be made.  That was the original objective.  But why he made the inference, seeing as there were a lot of people there to protect him, and we wanted to stage a show of force to intimidate the insurgents, to show them that they didn't stand a chance, in the light of all this, I can't see why Sgt Sehlwana drew such an inference.

MR ROSSOUW: You therefore think it is an unreasonable conclusion?

A J G ERWEE: I could put it that way, yes.

MR ROSSOUW: I will leave for a later stage during argument.  You also said that after the incident you gave instructions that the Casspir should be removed from the road.  You mentioned other transport.  Now is that a road that is regularly used?

A J G ERWEE: Not too frequently but I could foresee that it might be used because farmers used that road to go into town in the mornings, and other people who visited the farms also used the roads.  So that's why we should clear the road quickly.

MR ROSSOUW: During the rehearsals which took place the previous afternoon according to Matthews Sehlwana, do you stand by what you said that it was early that morning?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, definitely.

MR ROSSOUW: You also heard Mr Sehlwana testifying that he left before five because he had to go and pick up the people at five in the morning to cross the border.

A J G ERWEE: I heard that, yes, that is what he testified.

MR ROSSOUW: And your comment?

A J G ERWEE: No, he moved with us from Alldays, from a farm where we stayed overnight and we went to the scene from there.  Capt Bourne drove the vehicle twice through this rehearsal drive and Sgt Sehlwana experienced it twice himself.  Just to make sure that we were all ready to go.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you show Matthews Sehlwana how he should run?

A J G ERWEE: Capt Bourne and myself showed him personally.  We moved as far as the fence with him to show him.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you hear when the incident took place and did you see him jump out of the Kombi or didn't you see that?

A J G ERWEE: I saw him jumping out through the window, right in front of me I saw him jumping out, but he fell and he ran towards the back. In other words in a westerly direction.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you hear somebody shouting at him that he was running in the wrong direction?

A J G ERWEE: No, not at that stage. It might have been shouted but I didn't hear that.

MR ROSSOUW: Would you say that apart from the fact that he couldn't bring the Kombi to a halt, exactly the spot which you had marked beforehand, and the fact that he didn't run in the right direction initially, apart from those factors, did he do everything as planned?

A J G ERWEE: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: As far as the incident is concerned where the wounded MK person was allegedly shot, you said that initially people were standing around there.  Was Mr Sehlwana one of those people?

A J G ERWEE: I can't remember that I saw him there.

MR ROSSOUW: But if he says that he was there, would you be able to deny that?

A J G ERWEE: No, I couldn't.

MR ROSSOUW: You also said, you also heard Mr Sehlwana's evidence that the person was shot by Mr Fuchs?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, that's right.

MR ROSSOUW: You answered to that, your reaction to that was that it would be outrageous for Mr Fuchs to have shot somebody like that, in full view of everybody else and yourself. Is that correct?

A J G ERWEE: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: I am going to ask you something. If you can't answer it you must please say so.  In the light of the allegation that there was such an incident, without assuming that it did actually take place, but just in the light of that allegation of the shooting, what would be the implication of such a person being shot by any member of the security forces?

A J G ERWEE: He would be criminally prosecuted,.
because the person on the ground would not be able to resist in any way and defend himself.

MR ROSSOUW: Would that be murder? Would it be apart from murder also an action which was in line with the object of the whole operation which you planned?

A J G ERWEE: No, no, that would be a gross contravention.

MR ROSSOUW: Can you think of any reason why Mr Sehlwana would have fabricated such a story?

A J G ERWEE: When I heard these allegations for the first time, I believed that Brig Ivor Human was actually making a joke with me.  I simply couldn't believe it.  But later, when I saw it in writing I was absolutely astounded.  I couldn't understand why such an allegation should be made after all these years.

MR ROSSOUW: When did you become of this allegation for the first time?

A J G ERWEE: I think it was towards the end of last year, after I heard that Dr D'Oliviera had appointed Brig Human to investigate the incident.  I then made an appointment with Brig Ivor Human, on the request of my then commanding officer Genl Gadu.  Brig Ivor Human then told me that he was investigating a case of so-called murder in that Tokkie Fuchs was alleged to have shot somebody at the scene, a wounded person and he also told me that a charge of perjury or obstructing the course of justice was facing me and that I should prepare myself accordingly. That was towards the end of last year. It could have been October, November or December, and I made this appointment on the instructions of what my commanding officer, Mr Gadu told me.

MR ROSSOUW: When you sent Mr Dreyer in one of the vehicles to make contact with Mr Van der Merwe and Mr Coetsee to go and report to them as to the outcome of the incident, were you at that stage convinced that all six people had died?

A J G ERWEE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: So ...

A J G ERWEE: I believed that they had all died, in good faith.

MR ROSSOUW: And that was the instruction you gave him?

A J G ERWEE: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: So he would not have been able to convey information that five had died and one was murdered?

A J G ERWEE: No, he could not have done that.  He couldn't convey that because he had already departed when the vehicle was moved back to the cement surface and the area was secured.

MR ROSSOUW: I now want to take you to the statement which you made, which you read into the record, under C15 and 16.  You pointed out certain aspects and you told us why you made certain statements. I don't have any dispute with you there, but the question I want to ask you is this.  As far as the objective which you sought to achieve by making a statement like this, would it have been detrimental to that objective if you had said five were dead and one had been wounded?  Why did you also misrepresent that aspect in the statement of the inquest?

A J G ERWEE: I can't say why I actually said that.

MR ROSSOUW: Please speak up, we can't hear you?

A J G ERWEE: I can't explain that.  I can't explain why I also said it in that statement that six were fatally wounded. I did not say when the sixth person died.  I just said in the statement that they were fatally wounded. I didn't think it necessary to say that one of the people only died later.

MR ROSSOUW: Do you think it would have made any difference if you had given the correct version there?

A J G ERWEE: I don't think so.

MR ROSSOUW: I have nothing further, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Erwee, the evidence so far has been, as I gather and I understand it, that that particular spot where the shooting took place, was chosen because it was an isolated place and one anticipated that there may - there was a real possibility, let's put it that way, of a shooting taking place and people being wounded?

A J G ERWEE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BLACK: It is not a busy public road?

A J G ERWEE: That is correct.