Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-21

STEPHANIE MILLER: What I saw was the entire skeletal remains in a body bag, covered by fabric on the top and fabric over the skull.  All the parts of the body were as they had been placed at the time of interment, so I would imagine that was only visible once the wrappings were taken off and the post-mortem was being done.  I did not see any separation of the lower jaw.

MR VISSER: Now this gives rise to another question ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chair, I've got the photo, perhaps, I don't know whether Mr Visser wants a number to refer to.

MR VISSER: No, I'll deal with Dr Naidoo with the photographs, I was just alerting the Committee.  Thank you, Ms Thabethe.
	This gives rise to another issue.  You see, and again I don't want to go into the photographs, but when the photographs were taken the remains seem to have been bundled up.  If you wish to you can look at the photographs now.  I don't want to go in too deep a scientific discussion about this, but you just said that when you saw the body it was as it was interred.

STEPHANIE MILLER: These photographs were not taken at the grave site.

MR VISSER: They were taken elsewhere.

STEPHANIE MILLER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: That's right.  And while we're - so, what may have happened is, they may have been juggled around a little bit one must imagine then, from the time you saw the remains in the grave until the photographs were taken.

STEPHANIE MILLER: What do you mean by "juggled around"?

MR VISSER: Well just look at the photographs.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I have a photograph of the skull, with the ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: No, forget about the skull, look at the bag with the remains in it.  It's the one at page 49 of your bundle 2, Chairperson, but you will not be able to make out anything from that.

MR LAX: It's figure 2.  I would think that's what it would be marked as in yours, figure 2, because you're is not numbered like ours.

MR VISSER: Can you just hold it up so that we can just see which one it is?  That's the one.  Is that how you saw the remains in the grave, Mrs Miller?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, no.

MR VISSER: So what would you say had happened?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I can't answer that, I was not ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: They were juggled around a bit in transportation, surely?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I have no idea, I don't know that.  I have no idea at which stage this photograph was taken.

MR VISSER: My sound is cutting out all the time, I don't know whether it's only mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Mine is not.

MR VISSER: Is not, well then it may be my system, thank you Chairperson.

MR LAX: Cecil, could you provide another headset please.

MR VISSER: I've got one, thank you.

MR LAX: It's okay, we've got one, thank you.  How's that, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: I can't hear you.

MR LAX: How's that?  Have you got the volume on and ...?

MR VISSER: Mine keeps on cutting out.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, it's almost quarter past.

MR VISSER: Do you want to take the adjournment now, Chairperson, it's two minutes to go?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Can I reply?  If I could reply to Mr Visser?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

STEPHANIE MILLER: What I'd like to say is I can only speak to that which I saw and that which I know, or that which I investigated, as far as the pictures are concerned you're going to have to speak to Dr Naidoo in this regard.

MR VISSER: Yes, that's what I suggested I do.  The only point is you seemed to have been surprised when I suggested to you that the bones were not in the same position as you saw them in the grave when the photographs were taken and that's the only reason why I, it's the only reason why I say to you, it you look at that photograph, it's probably not how you saw the remains in the grave.

STEPHANIE MILLER: It wasn't how I saw the remains in the grave.

MR VISSER: Thank you, that's the only thing.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the tea adjournment now, I don't know if tea's only going to be ready at half past eleven, but as I mentioned earlier I got this note not to stop before eleven thirty but we are in fact stopping now because I'd like to have a quick discussion with the legal representatives before we have our tea.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

STEPHANIE MILLER: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mrs Miller, earlier you gave evidence that you were explained or directed to the place where the body which you say Dr Naidoo examined was found, do you remember that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Who told you where that body was found?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The report from the police before the body was taken to the mortuary, indicates where the report originated.

MR VISSER: So did nobody give you directions as to where precisely the body was found?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Nobody gave me directions.

MR VISSER: You then mentioned that you went to a house which is now being relocated, but at the time you went to a house near this spot where this body was apparently found, is that correct?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, that's not correct.

MR VISSER: Not correct.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I went to the place where the house had originally been, the house had already been moved by 1997.

MR VISSER: Oh I see.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I went to the locality where the house had been and in the general vicinity had a look at the area where the body was alleged to have been found.

MR VISSER: What was the purpose of going to that house?

STEPHANIE MILLER: To the site where the deceased had been collected, it was important for me to familiarise myself with where it had happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think Mr Visser wants to know what in the first instance made you go to the house?  There was a report in the police records that the body was found and a house number mentioned, is that correct?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The police records indicated that the report of the body lying in the veld had been reported by a person living at a specific house number in the locality.

CHAIRPERSON: So you went to the place where that house number ...(intervention)

STEPHANIE MILLER: Had previously been.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Visser, if I could just ask one question.
	You were on that inspection in loco that we went on?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I was.

CHAIRPERSON: The place that you went to, where that house had been, where was in relation to where we went where it was pointed out, although things had changed because the road had been built up there, but where we were where the applicants pointed out, some of the applicants pointed out that the body was...

STEPHANIE MILLER: As the crow flies it's very close.  I can't give you an exact distance, but it's fairly close as the crow flies, but by road it's two kilometres.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but as the crow flies ...(intervention)

STEPHANIE MILLER: It's directly west, what I would term ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Directly west, inland?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Inland.

CHAIRPERSON: Away from the sea?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So a bit further along the road as it were?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, if you remember the vicinity where we were standing, if you were standing with your back to the road pointing at Bambai, facing the Ghandi settlement, it would have been directly behind you and slightly off to the right, but very slightly.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

STEPHANIE MILLER: It was over the hill behind us.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	At the time when we went on the inspection, I take it you knew, you'd already been to this place and you familiarised yourself with where you thought the body was found?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.

MR VISSER: I'm just surprised that you didn't tell us at the time that the body wasn't found here where Wasserman and du Preez stated it was, it ...(intervention)

STEPHANIE MILLER: I did dispute it with both Mr Wasserman and Mr du Preez, yes.