Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson I have received a request through Mr Ngubane from the victims that they have not heard Mr Luthuli take responsibility for his role in the sufferings in this community. Of course Mr Luthuli did do that in evidence in Durban and he explained his position. I have mentioned this to my learned friend. What I request of the committee is to allow an opportunity, I have insisted with Mr Luthuli that it should be ten minutes and no more, to allow Mr Luthuli an opportunity to express to this community or to confirm that he was involved in the ways in which the other applicants have said and to make a few comments on that. But not to give any detail.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think Mr Stewart we have heard his evidence in regard to the merits, the training, various incidents but if he can give evidence and restrict it to what you say (CONFERS WITH OTHER COMMITTEE MEMBERS)

CHAIRPERSON: Does anybody else have anything to say? Mr Hewit?

MR HEWIT: Yes Mr Chairman. It occurs to us that the very purpose of the meeting yesterday afternoon, at which we were not present but, the very purpose as we understand it of the meeting yesterday afternoon was for members of the community who were affected by these various actions on the part of the applicants who have testified was to afford them an opportunity of talking to them and putting as many questions as they wish to them yesterday afternoon. Now Mr Luthuli as far as I know would have been present at those discussions yesterday afternoon. And I would have imagined then that if his role was not known that would have been canvassed yesterday afternoon. It just seems to me that to get him to speak now may be an exercise in futility if that occurred yesterday afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Stewart I have spoken with my fellow committee members and the concern expressed is that it will start, we have already got that evidence on record. Was it not canvassed yesterday? Did he not speak, is there going to be a repetition of what happened yesterday or what is the actual purpose fr it?

MR HEWIT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Firstly no, it was not canvassed yesterday. That primarily what was canvassed yesterday was the details of incidents and whether the, I am sure this will be explained in due course, but whether the applicants knew about this incident or that incident or the other one and so on. That is the kind of thing that was canvassed. There was a time constraint, the prisoners had to go back to prison and so on. And the request then came subsequently after the meeting had adjourned. 
	But the problem is we have not heard Mr Luthuli own the process and accept responsibility. And what I am suggesting is not that he even gives evidence on oath but that he merely makes a statement here. What I anticipate is something really brief. This is a request that has come through the victims. I am sure my learned friend Mr Ngubane and indeed Advocate Mpshe will back me up. I am loathed that we spend more time debating whether to do something which will take less time than the debate.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps let me briefly hear Mr Ngubane and Mr Mpshe on this? Mr Mpshe you have been delegated to speak first.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, members of the committee. Indeed I support what Mr Stewart is saying. Mr Chairman it should be recalled that what happened yesterday when the members of the public were putting questions, they were putting questions to the applicants who testified in this hearing. And they did not have any opportunity of listening to Mr Luthuli's evidence. And the agreement is that he is not going to start a novel with his evidence. It is just for him to introduce himself to the people and say: "I am Luthuli and these are the following, I am the person who gave command and I apologize," and that is it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman I can only confirm what Mr Mpshe has said, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that why you asked him to go first Mr?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Sorry Mr Chairperson if I can just add my bit? I think it is important and I support it in the spirit of the true purpose of the Act in that it is reconciliation between the perpetrators and the victims of violence thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think I will allow him to give evidence but if it is restricted to what you say. We do not, he has already given evidence on record with regard to the merits and the role that he played but just to give him an opportunity to speak to the victims concerned. Because we know that the vast majority of the victims were not present when he testified.

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I will give an opportunity to any counsel to cross-examine or ask questions in the usual manner if anything arises.

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson we are indebted to the committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to start with Mr Luthuli?

MR STEWART: If that would be convenient Mr Chairperson. I am not sure Mr Chairperson whether what you have said indicates that he will be sworn in and so on?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we may as well swear him in. Could you swear him in Sisi?

DALUTXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (sworn states)

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Luthuli you have heard in the debate  a few minutes ago what is envisaged you should testify to now. And you have also heard that we are impressing upon you that we have little time to deal with this. But this request has come from the victims. Will you now explain briefly your role and your position in relation to the victims?

DALUTXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say to the community of Esikoweni and surroundings as I am here before them I am giving them assurance that everything that has been presented here is as it has been presented. That is the honest truth that cannot be refuted. These men were trained in Caprivi. The reason therefore was not what you used to hear that they were going to guard Amakosi, etc, etc. The truth is these were soldiers, IFP soldiers. The IFP president, Doctor Buthelesi and his secretary general, M Z Khumalo know this very well. I would also add that they are colleagues. General Malan know this very well because they had planned this that, planning that it was going to happen exactly as it happened. I also explained that there was a time where we met as a planning committee, a big planning committee in the presence of M Z Khumalo, Brigadier van Niekerk, Major Botha of the special branch.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) that we have heard before now, we are going to planning committees and training. I thought he was coming to express his feelings and the role he played. He seemed to be giving evidence in chief now again on the merits. We might be here for another three days on this lot.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Stewart you would have actually have to oblige Mr Hewit the right to cross-examine on any issue that he may actually bring forth during this testimony.

MR STEWART: As I understand it the chairperson has already ruled that Mr Hewit will have that right.

CHAIRPERSON: The idea was not to go over his whole evidence again. We have had Mr Luthuli for two days I think talking about planning committee and who trained and who gave orders. We have had that. I thought the idea was at the request of the victims to come and express his feelings about it to the victims and not to go back over the merits. This is the difficulty that I have with this evidence.

MR HEWIT: Mr Chairman if I could just make a point here. Surely my learned friend, Mr Stewart can lead the witness on the very issues that he said he would, namely that he was part of the campaign to attack UDF and ANC people in Esikoweni. He knew what was going on and he apologizes to them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can proceed with this otherwise we are going to just have the evidence coming up again.