Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

UNKNOWN: And then are you able to say when that was, the year possibly?

CHAIRPERSON: It must have been after April 1995 wasn't it because he refers in that statement to a meeting on the 29th April 1995 so the statement must have been made after then?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I take your point but his awareness of the cessation of the armed struggle, that's what I'm after, are you able to put a time frame on that because in paragraph 10 he goes on to say "they were preparing for the election" and that was in April 1994.

MR MASEKO: You are mixing up things now - what we are talking about if something ends - the meeting took place long after the statement was said about the suspension of armed struggle, they are two different things so he's actually mixing up the two issues.

UNKNOWN: I'm having difficulty and I'm grateful for pointing that out to me.  Are you saying or is it the position that on two different occasions leaders of the PAC had called for the - or had announced the suspension of the armed struggle?  That is now before the elections of 1994.

MR MASEKO: Yes it is so.

UNKNOWN: And are you able to assist us and maybe put a time frame in other words to tell us when those announcements were made whether it was in 1993, 1992 or earlier?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember what year was it but I think it was just before the elections, just before the elections.

UNKNOWN: And not before the operation at University of Transkei?

MR MASEKO: No, I don't think it is like that.

UNKNOWN: So are you saying that that happened because we know the UNITRA operation, that is the one we are investigating today, this was the 18th February 1992, are you saying the call or the statement to suspend the armed struggle came after that date but before the election date which was April '94?

MR MASEKO: That is so.

UNKNOWN: And finally and this is a general question - the call to suspend the armed struggle was that embraced by all of APLA or was there a difference of opinion within APLA whether to continue with the armed struggle?

MR MASEKO: It's not all of us who were pleased by the statement.

UNKNOWN: From that reply do I understand that people were dissatisfied with that call?

MR MASEKO: Yes I trying to say it's not everybody who was satisfied.

UNKNOWN: And was the struggle carried on, did they carry on or did the faction within APLA carry on with the struggle despite the call for suspension thereof by certain leaders?  Do I understand you correctly, that's what you're trying to convey?

MR MASEKO: I disagree with that because I was one of those people who were not satisfied because we were actually making arrangement mobilising people for an election so I was among those people who were dissatisfied by the decision.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude your ..[inaudible]?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, thank you that concludes my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA

MR NTONGA: Mr Maseko, you were asked about whether after the announcement by the President to stop further armed attacks whether a faction was dissatisfied continued with the attacks - do you as a commander know of any such attacks?  Were you involved in any attacks despite the fact that you are not in agreement with the decision?

MR MASEKO: I don't know anything.

MR NTONGA: And further on the question asked about whether you got money from these operations or ask the administrator to give you money from the operations, you are saying that you did ask for money but you didn't know from which source the money came from but you followed a certain procedure to obtain money for the operations?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: And you are certain that this incident occurred before this announcement of suspending armed struggle and mobilising the masses for a vote?

MR MASEKO: This operation took place before the elections.

MR NTONGA: Is it correct also that after the announcement of the President of the PAC various meetings were held before the call was actually accepted by the whole membership of PAC?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: You were asked also extensively about how you were armed, that is your unit was armed in this operation at UNITRA and your questions were based on the statement or report made to the administrator.  Are you saying to this Commission that the mistakes that are there were made then and it's only for today that realise that about the people who were there, the names as well as the guns, machine guns, arms carried that day?

MR MASEKO: I want to say so.

MR NTONGA: And you say you yourself were armed with a knife which also appears on the list, Okapi knife?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

MR NTONGA: Your unit what happened to them, members of the unit are they still alive?  Do you know what happened to them?

MR MASEKO: I don't know whether they're still alive or not and I haven't seen them for a long because I have spent too much time in prison already.

MR NTONGA: Is there a way you can make contact with them if you want to?

MR MASEKO: It can be very difficult because some of them went back their respective home and I won't even know how to start about tracing them.

MR NTONGA: About this question of code names - you were asked by the Commission if possible to put in full names for the members of the unit.  Just tell the Commission how difficult it is to know the full names in the APLA structure.

MR MASEKO: Thank you very much sir.  First of all in APLA we had code names for security reasons because we knew our names and if someone is arrested it would be dangerous therefore we were using the code names so that if one is arrested it would be difficult to know who that person is.  We were using the code names for security reasons.

MR NTONGA: And lastly, about this operation at UNITRA are you saying to this Commission that although you don't remember advising your senior before the operation but after the operation did you advise him and did he approve of it?

MR MASEKO: Can you please repeat your question sir?

MR NTONGA: Although you don't remember advising him before the operation, but after the operation did you report to him and he sanctioned the operation?

MR MASEKO: After each and every operation we normally did a report back.

MR NTONGA: To get the sanction of the organisation through your immediate superior?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?
ADV. GCABASHE: Yes I have a few.
	I might as well start on this particular point Mr Maseko.  The sanctioning of this operation - now if you can help me understand this - as the overall commander you say you could decide on the target for a particular operation.  Is this right?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.
ADV. GCABASHE: Now in terms of the hierarchy of APLA was there any structure to the target that you would pick on, I mean did somebody say to you these are the areas we are targeting as an organisation and you would then confine yourself to those particular areas?

MR MASEKO: It's not like that.  Each and every unit would go and try identify the targets by itself.
ADV. GCABASHE: And do I understand correctly then that the reason you chose UNITRA was because you knew you would be able to get a large sum of money there, that's the only reason?

MR MASEKO: You are telling the truth.
ADV. GCABASHE: Now Advocate Paddy Prior talked about civilian soft targets and you talked about military targets.  You also talked about institutions that were related to the government earlier on in your testimony.  Why UNITRA why not one of the banks?