Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: When they were required to shoot with the rifles they did not comply because it became evident that they were afraid, they still insisted that I must shoot with the rifle grenade as was initially discussed.  I told them "No, I cannot use this rifle grenade because it is too close to me", the bus that is, "how can I shoot at the bus when it is this close to me"?

MR LAX: What were you afraid of?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was not afraid, they were the people who were afraid.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have just told us you said you could not use the rifle grenade because you were too close, you said that not they.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Why couldn't you use it?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Because of the distance I could not use that rifle grenade.

CHAIRPERSON: Had your vehicle pulled up alongside the bus then?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was moving parallel to the bus, next to the bus.  I was at the side near the bus inside our car.

MR LAX: Was the problem - there are two possible problems, one is that the grenade wouldn't work at such a short distance, the other is that the blast might blow you up as well, what were you afraid of?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was because it would not work, that rifle grenade would not work that I was supposed to use there.

MR PRIOR: As I understood your evidence the plan was to use the rifle grenade before you even got to Da Gama.  My difficulty is, at what stage were you or how were you going to use the rifle grenade in any event?  What was the plan, how were you going to shoot the rifle grenade in those circumstances?  That is now before the discussions and the argument about being too close and so on.  What was the plan about the rifle grenade?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Our plan was when the bus approaches our driver would precede the bus and I would appear through the window of the car and shoot at the bus.

MR PRIOR: From within the car?  So in other words you wouldn't get out of the car to fire the grenade?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I would not be going outside of the car.

MR PRIOR: You would shoot at the bus as the bus approached your vehicle or as the bus drew alongside your vehicle?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, he said they would go in front of the vehicle, they would precede the vehicle and they would fire back at the bus, if I understand him correctly.  Just so that it's clear there.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR PRIOR: It seems from your evidence that you were unaware that this vehicle that came inbetween - sorry, let me maybe establish that.  The vehicle that came inbetween the bus and your vehicle, is it correct there was a security officer in that vehicle who began shooting at your vehicle after you people starting shooting, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR PRIOR: And you were unaware of that situation, that there was a security officer following the bus on that occasion?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I was not aware.

MR PRIOR: And just to perhaps round off the bus as far as I am concerned, will you agree that the bus was full?  I have information that there were 22 persons inside the bus.  I know you wouldn't know the exact number but was that bus, the personnel carrier of Da Gama Textiles, full of passengers as you saw it?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot disagree when you say there was a number of people, whatever the number was.

MR PRIOR: Do you know whether the bus was struck at all by bullets from your firearms, that is your unit's firearms?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not know, I cannot lie to you.

MR PRIOR: Alright.  Now during the firefight that you described there was shooting to and fro, TNT and Kid were injured, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR PRIOR: I refer to paragraph 11.14 in your affidavit at page 58(a) of the bundle of documents.  You said
"Tjobane asked them whether he should shoot them, that is Kid and TNT.  They responded that they would carry on and then kill themselves"

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question please?

MR PRIOR: Let me repeat it
"Kid and TNT were injured and Gobane asked them whether he should shoot them, that is Kid and TNT.  They responded that they would carry on and then kill themselves"

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That I heard from him after he was released from prison because they were arrested in Transkei.

MR PRIOR: Sorry?  Was that only after this shooting and not at the time of the shooting?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That I only heard perhaps a month after the shooting occurred.

MR PRIOR: And who did you hear that from?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Through Africa Gobane.

MR PRIOR: So it didn't - sorry, I just get the impression from your affidavit that it happened in that sequence
"that the gun battle ensued"
that was the preceding paragraph and then
"Gobane said because they were injured could he shoot them, they said they would shoot themselves"
and then you said in the following paragraph"
"I covered for the others and they ran away"
So it's not as it appears in the affidavit, that's incorrect?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR PRIOR: Well let me just question you on that, was that also part of the plan, that if anyone of your unit were injured that his colleague or comrade would then kill him or shoot him?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: When we go out on a mission and I get injured and it is evident that I cannot retreat properly or fight back it is necessary that my own comrade must finish me off if I cannot kill myself because when the police arrest me they'll take me to hospital I'll be charge there and then they will torture me and then the information will be revealed, all of it.

MR PRIOR: Mr Ncamazana, the instruction or the order to attack Da Gama Textiles or the personnel bus, that never came from Jimmy Jones specifically, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It came from him.

MR PRIOR: Because I refer to paragraph 13.3 of your affidavit at page 58 of the paginated bundle.  You were talking about after the Highgate incident where you shot the rifle grenade, you had then gone to NU6 at Mdantsane and there you had left the Sierra motor vehicle and there you said
"The following day we proceeded to"
...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, what page reference have you referred us to, we're a bit puzzled here?

MR PRIOR: 58 of the paginated bundle, page 58 of the paginated papers.
	You then said you went to a house of a friend Sipho Fuchane and in paragraph 11.3 you said
"We left his house at about 19H00, we returned to Gobane's house.  On Sunday we planned our next target which was to be Da Gama"

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you'd better read paragraph 10.2 first Mr Prior, on page 55 or 10.1 on page 54.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Do I understand from 11.3 is that you at that stage discussed how the Da Gama attack was to take place?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Where at are we planning?

MR PRIOR: I'd like you to look at the photographs of the Da Gama scene.
	May they just be marked Exhibit D.  Mr Chairman, you will notice that the - I've only put up 6 photographs, sorry 8 photographs, sorry 7 photographs and the key refers to far more points than - because there were substantially more photographs but the main ones are the aerial photographs of the road outside Da Gama and the position where Constable Williams was shot, from the police, and the two TNT and Kid's bodies were found.  Those are marked at C and D.
	Could you look at photographs 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8?

MR LAX: Can we just note for the record Mr Prior, there is no photograph 2.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I noticed that now, there's no photograph 2.

CHAIRPERSON: What exhibit number are we giving to these?

MR PRIOR: Exhibit D Mr Chairman.  Can we simply refer to the photographs as D1 in that number or should be number then consecutively?

MR LAX: I think we can leave it as they're already numbered on the sheet but obviously just noting there is no number 2.