Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

JOHANNES MNISI: When I filled the application form, I was told already that that material that I packed in McBride's car was the one which was used for that bomb.

ADV PRIOR: I was coming to that because there just appears to be a contradiction from the statement B3 that you tendered today.  Are you saying that that information was supplied to you by your attorney, that's after the fact, in other words?

JOHANNES MNISI: There on the other statement, I didn't know, but when I filled in this one, then I had already been told.  On the other one I didn't put it because I didn't know, but then when I filled the other statement, I had already been told.

ADV PRIOR: There's not trap or trick, I just want to clarify it.

MR BERGER: But Chairperson, with respect, this statement doesn't say that Mr Mnisi knew at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think it creates - it might be ambiguous, I think he's just clearing it up, I think it's quite clear from what Mr Mnisi has said that what's contained in the application form that the material that he packed was used in the operation, he learned after the event.  Is that correct, Mr Mnisi?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I needed to clarify that.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no other matters.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Berger, do you have any re-examination?

MR BERGER: Just very briefly, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Mr Mnisi, is it correct that when you packed the explosives into comrade Robert's vehicle, you knew that that material could be used to manufacture a car bomb?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

MR BERGER: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.  Adv Sigodi, did you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Mnisi?

ADV SIGODI: Just one aspect, to clarify.  How many training camps were there in Botswana?

JOHANNES MNISI: We didn't have camps in Botswana, we used residential places.

ADV SIGODI: But I mean groups for training.  How many people were responsible for training people in the making of car bombs in Botswana?

JOHANNES MNISI: I wouldn't know about other units, but in our unit it was Vusi and Dumakude.

ADV SIGODI: Were there many units that perhaps you didn't know of?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, when I'm saying units, I'm talking about other departments, there were others.

ADV SIGODI: No, I'm referring to, in particular, to units where people would be trained in the making of car bombs.  Do you know?

JOHANNES MNISI: No.

ADV SIGODI: Was it possible to know each and every unit that was in existence in Botswana and/or Lusaka?

JOHANNES MNISI: No, I will only know people who were in the Special Operations, the others I wouldn't know.

ADV SIGODI: The reason I'm asking you this is because you were asked about whether in the training of people in the making of car bombs, you knew if people would be taught to put in shrapnel and nails into car bombs, is it possible that there was a unit that would teach people to make car bombs in this was, or is that something out of your knowledge?

JOHANNES MNISI: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Pillay, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

JUDGE PILLAY: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mnisi, sorry - are there any questions arising out of questions put by Adv Sigodi?  Any questions arising?

MR BERGER: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mnisi, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the next witness is Mr Lester Dumakude.