Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-13

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, the incident where the hand grenade exploded, were you also in possession of a firearm?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Could you repeat your question?

ADV STEENKAMP: I see in your amnesty application, no mention of possession of a firearm.  My question to you is, because according to the court records,  you were also in possession of a firearm on the day of the incident, can you explain that to me.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Adv Steenkamp, just ...

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: There was a firearm that was found, whilst I was in detention at the Protea police station.   That is why I applied for a possession of a firearm.  There is a firearm that was found.
	Actually not a firearm, it was an explosive, a hand grenade.  That was found in Pretoria.

ADV GCABASHE: Which incident is that that you are referring to?

ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry Mr Chairman, I am referring to the incident of the explosion of the hand grenade inside the house.  My question to the applicant is basically this, was he in possession of a firearm?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Yes, I was in possession of a firearm at that time.

ADV STEENKAMP: This is now at the time of the incident in the house, am I right?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Could you repeat your question please.

ADV STEENKAMP: Okay.  Am I right in understanding you correctly, at the day of the incident of the explosion of the hand grenade inside the house, you were also in possession of a firearm?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Yes, I was.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me why you specifically denied to the Supreme Court, that you were in possession of a firearm on the day of the incident, that specific day, why did you lie to the Supreme Court then?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: I had to lie in court, because I did not appreciate the system that was employed by the Supreme Court, and I had no confidence in the judicial system, because it was unfair on our part.  That is why I had absolutely no confidence and I did not want to disclose the truth, I did not want to get convicted.

ADV STEENKAMP: I missed that, can you maybe just explain to me, you referred to Mrs Mandela.  Can you explain to me what exactly was her role in this incident?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Mrs Mandela, I don't understand, can you repeat your question.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, you referred to Mrs Mandela in your evidence in chief.  My question to you is, what exactly - did she give you any assistance, what was her role in this whole time while you  were, after the incident?  Apparently she gave you some assistance if I am not mistaken.  My question to you is, can you please explain to me exactly what was her role?

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Khumalo, Mr Steenkamp, if my memory serves me well, the reference was not to Mrs Mandela, the reference was to Mama's place, so maybe you should frame your question in that sense, you know because of the evidence we have heard before in the TRC.  There is a difference between the person and the place, so maybe you need to rephrase.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I am not mistaken, the applicant has referred to Mrs Mandela, but I will rephrase the question.
	Can you explain to me who was Mama then?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: I will explain this further.  During the year 1993, after I had fled, I went to Mama's place, that is Mrs Mandela.  I sought a place of refuge.  That is when I was escaping from the Security Police.  I went to Mama's place.  That is why I involved Mrs Mandela.

ADV STEENKAMP: Was she aware that you had escaped from the police and the police were searching for you?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Yes, when the police was searching for me,  she is a member of the African National Congress ...

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry to interrupt you Mr Khumalo, can you please continue speaking in Zulu, the Interpreters are going to interpret what you are saying.

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Thank you.   It happened that Mama is a member of the African National Congress and she knew the conditions under which we lived, especially as members of Umkhonto we Sizwe.  As well as the reasons for being harassed and tortured by the Security Police, any member or every member of the ANC had a right to hide members of the ANC who were fleeing from the Security Police, that is what I was trying to explain.

ADV STEENKAMP: For how long did you stay there and did she also assist you in going to the Eastern Cape?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: I did not stay long.  I think I stayed ...

ADV STEENKAMP: Just a minute.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he applying for escaping from custody?

ADV STEENKAMP: No Mr Chairman, but I think he is not applying for that, but surely he is implicating somebody now.  I think the question, my only question why I am asking this question, is the whole relation to information relating to 19(4), if they are not, this person must be referred to as an implicated person or not and whether or not, she must be notified.  That is my only difficulty Mr Chairman, but I don't have any further questions on that issue.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: That is my difficulty as well.  So it is not really an issue that is before us?

ADV STEENKAMP: No, it is not an issue of the applicant, it is an issue of referring to the specific Section Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV STEENKAMP: My last question to you sir, who supplied you with the hand grenades?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: I am a member of Umkhonto we Sizwe and as a member, there were certain operations within South Africa, we had some DLB's in South Africa which were issued during the armed struggle and these were handled by us.
	As we were handling these, I was the one who was issuing them out so that they could protect the community.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you get these, did you personally, were you personally in possession of a cache or where did you exactly get these hand grenades?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: With regard to underground structures, I cannot say it was a cache of arms, but I used to get arms from different people at different times.  I would not say it was a whole cache at the same time.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you for your indulgence Mr Chairman, thank you to all the members.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Khumalo, if I understood you very well, you are saying you didn't assault Colin Zuma, is that so?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: However, the Court convicted you for that, found you guilty for that?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Yes, I was convicted for something that I didn't do.  Even God knows that I didn't commit that offence.

MR SIBANYONI: I see.  Now, seeing that the Court has made that effect, that it is a conviction against you, are you applying for amnesty, would you like the Committee to give you amnesty for that?

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: No questions, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mhlaba, re-examination?

MR MHLABA: None Chair.

MR MHLABA: .

MR MHLABA: The applicant does not have any witness to call and that concludes his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.   Mr Steenkamp, are there any further witnesses?

ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry Mr Chairman, I do not have any further witnesses to lead as well, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to adjourn for tea and when we reconvene, I would like you to proceed to address us on the application.  If you wish to formulate those offences which relate to the amendment, I want you to just take the opportunity to do that as well Mr Mhlaba.  Thank you.
	We will adjourn to give you a bit of time just to prepare all of that.  We will adjourn for tea until eleven o'clock.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, thank you, I see Mr Manyamala's Attorneys are present now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS