Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Would you please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: At paragraph 10(a) of your application for amnesty, there is a section which says "State the political objective that was intended to be achieved", your answer starts by saying and I quote
"... the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth",
	and then it goes on.  My question is what and how was the murder committed under the leadership of the Youth?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: When it was first reported that Emma Mtsweni  was a witch, it came to be known to the comrades.  That is why I am saying it happened under the instructions of the Youth.

MR RICHARD: When somebody was reported to the Youth League of the ANC in your area to be a witch, what did the ANC Youth League believe should be done with that person?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: We as a Youth were responsible to resolve those problems.

MR RICHARD: In what way did a witch pose a problem to the ANC, how did she threaten the ANC?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: We Youth or the ANC Youth, realising that bewitching and killing our parents was going to lead to us being orphans and therefore we couldn't continue development and some of us were going to be orphans and street kids and the organisation was not going to prosper and it was going to be divided.

MR RICHARD: And then at the same paragraph of your application, after the phrase that I have read you say under the leadership of the Youth, and then I continue
"... to help the community by they were not under by any organisation, but the government was the main source of that murder."
	Would you like to read what I have just read out?  Read it carefully because my question is what do you mean by that?

CHAIRPERSON: Read it with 10(b), let him read 10(b) too, the last few lines.

MR RICHARD: The Chairperson requests that you read 10(a) and 10(b).

CHAIRPERSON: Have you read it?  Did you write it out yourself?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, carry on.

MR RICHARD: Do you confirm what you said there?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: The other thing that I was going to ask you is you have heard what other witnesses have said about what the ANC Youth should do with moloi's, do you associate yourself with that comment or do you differ in any way from those comments?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I do confirm that and I do agree with them.

MR RICHARD: So you agree with the statement that moloi's were seen as opponents of the liberation struggle and people that should be killed for the same reasons as an impimpi should be dealt with in that way?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now again a general question.  You have heard the evidence of previous witnesses, both today and yesterday about what a moloi and a ngaka is and the differences between them.  Do you agree with what was said?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: Do you believe in witchcraft?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree with the killing of Emma Mtsweni?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: And how did you think her killing would further the interests of the struggle?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I knew that the Youth was getting most of their support from their parents and since we were involved in a struggle, it couldn't have been easier for us to do so without parents.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, I turn to page 19 of the bundle, paragraph 11(2) and I ask you to read through 11(2)(a).  Thank you.  There you say
"... no order was given, but just because the community was helpless, we the Youth decided to eradicate anything in the way of our community."
	Did you hear anyone give an order or didn't you?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I didn't hear anyone.

MR RICHARD: How did the Youth come to a decision to eradicate witches or particularly Mrs Emma Mtsweni?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: Here you say
"... we the Youth decided to eradicate anything in the way of our community."
	I am asking the following questions - what decision was made, where it was made, who made it and how it was communicated to the rest of the world?  Let's start with what was the decision?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: The decision which was taken was that we should remove anyone who becomes an obstacle in the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Was that decision made on the 2nd of January 1991 or at some time before or after that?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: It was our policy, or let me say we believed long before that that witches and informers were supposed to be removed.  This was our policy, we comrades.

MR RICHARD: Now, to whom was that decision communicated?  Who did you tell about your decision?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I think everyone at that time, more especially every Youth knew that a moloi or a witch was someone to be burnt.

MR RICHARD: Now my last question, it was for that reason that once you have heard that Emma Mtsweni was a witch, you decided that she should be killed or the Youth around you decided that she should be killed?  Am I not correct?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may come in at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MTANGA: The Interpreters are requesting a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us a minute, perhaps we can finish off this witness, perhaps there are not many or any questions.  Just a minute.

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, I don't have any questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

MR SIBANYONI: You say you joined the ANC Youth League in 1987 or 1988, did I understand you correctly?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Was there a branch of the Youth League at that stage?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: No, we didn't have a branch, but we had a branch nearby.

MR SIBANYONI: But political organisations were unbanned only during 1990, how would there have been some structures of the ANC in your area in 1987 or 1988?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Would you please repeat your question?

MR SIBANYONI: Political organisations were unbanned during February 1990, how could it have been, how is it possible that there was a structure of the ANC in your area by the year you said you joined the ANC Youth League?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: What I know is that I have been a supporter of the ANC since the time of the Mbokodo.  Even though the ANC was banned.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you not perhaps referring to the United Democratic Front, the UDF which was active during that time when the ANC was banned?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I am talking about the UDF.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, just one.  Did you believe that people who were witches, identified themselves or sympathised with any political formation such as the Nationalist Party government that was in power at the time, or any political grouping?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Can you explain that?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: The reason I am saying that you can refer to them as informers, because in fact they were in a way similar to informers, therefore you can say they were supporting the NP.

ADV SANDI: Did you know the political affiliation of Emma Mtsweni, if she had any?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: No, I don't.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Re-examination?

MR RICHARD: No re-examination, thank you Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mahlangu, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED