Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-18

MS M MOLETE: No, I would stay in the yard the whole day and I would not walk around a lot, therefore I did not hear a lot of things.

ADV SIGODI: In other words, you were not aware of any tension that prevailed in the township?

MS M MOLETE: That is so, Ma'am.

ADV SIGODI: Why did you go to visit your sister on that day?

MS M MOLETE: We were moving out of that place, that is why we left for her place because we were still scouting for a place to stay.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you left your residence at Amatola Road?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So whilst you were with your sister you were in the process of looking for some other accommodation?

MS M MOLETE: We were going to scout for a place to stay.  We would briefly stay with her and scout for a place to stay from the street committees in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: I see. And who were these street committees?

MS M MOLETE: I had not known them at that time because the very day we had just arrived, unfortunately in the evening we were attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: But what the street committees do?

MS M MOLETE: We did not go to them.  The day we arrived was the day of the attack.  We were not able to meet with the street committee.  We left at about three from Amatola, taking our belongings to our sister's place.  That day when we were supposed to meet the street committee we were attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the street committees responsible for allocating accommodation within the township?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, Sir.

ADV SIGODI: So you mentioned that this house where you were staying, was it your brother's house, at 717 Amatola Street?

MS M MOLETE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LAX: Sorry, we're not getting the interpretation.

MS M MOLETE: We were renting out the garage at 717 Amatola Street.

ADV SIGODI: So there was another family in the main house?

MS M MOLETE: The Mokobos resided in the main house.

ADV SIGODI: And the children, were the children in that main house?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Young men?

MS M MOLETE: Only daughters.  It was the father, the mother and their daughters and the grandchild.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  The time now is about 11 o'clock, shall we take an adjournment and we'll come back at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR LOWIES: (Cont)
Thank you, Chairperson.  May I proceed with my cross-examination?
	Ma'am, I would like to put the following to you;  at page 3724 of the criminal trial, in the judgment the Honourable Mr Justice Smith gave the, or summarised the defence of my clients and the other accused as follows:  he stated that - and I want to interrupt myself, he states - this is still my instruction, he stated that the applicants and the accused in that matter heard rumours that there may have been police involvement and as a result they even called two witnesses to prove police complicity, although at all relevant times they denied knowledge of this themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Well as I understand the case at the criminal trial, it was an alibi.

MR LOWIES: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  However, attempts were made on behalf of the applicants to establish that the attack was carried out by either the white men or the police, the police officers.

MR LOWIES: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And they led evidence to that effect.

MR LOWIES: They called two witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Who claim that they saw police during the attack?

MR LOWIES: That's correct.  The witnesses were Selo and Mabuza.

CHAIRPERSON: Selo ...?

MR LOWIES: The one Selo and a certain Abudnego Mabuza.  Do you know - may I proceed, sorry Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think it's been a long question, but let me, tell me if this is not accurate.  What's being put to you is the following:  at the criminal trial the accused, and I assume that includes the applicants ...

MR LOWIES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ... denied that they had taken part in the attack.  Do you understand that?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know that, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but do you understand what I'm saying?  Do you hear what I am saying?

MS M MOLETE: I hear, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  On their behalf evidence was led, that is of two witnesses, Selo and Mabuza, who gave evidence to the effect that there were police during the attack.  Do you understand what I've just put to you?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, I hear.

MR LOWIES: Do you know Mr Abudnego Mabusa?  I said Mabusa, it's Mabuza, sorry.

MS M MOLETE: Where does he stay, Sir?

MR LOWIES: He resides in Boipatong if I'm not mistaken.

MS M MOLETE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LOWIES: I did not catch you.

MS M MOLETE: I do not know the person.

MR LOWIES: But let me refresh your memory.  You were specifically called into the court by Judge Smith with Mr Mabuza and various other people, can you recall that?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know Mr Smith.

MR LOWIES: And I would like to put the following to you, you may not know the judge's name but at the criminal trial you were requested with Mr Abudnego Mabuza, to enter into the court as a result of something which Advocate Botha raised with the Judge, and you were asked certain questions.  I'll get to those questions just now, but do you remember such an incident?

MS M MOLETE: I have never been with Mr Mabuza.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you recall that at some point during the trial you were called into the courtroom?

MS M MOLETE: It is because I have never been called into court.  I have always been there with my child.  I don't know about those who went into court.

MR LOWIES: Well let me fresh ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Lowies, if I could just ask a question.  Just for my own understanding, this incident where the judge called these people in, was this in Delmas or was it in Pretoria, where was it?

MR LOWIES: According to the record, and I could be wrong, at page 3208, if I read it in conjunction with everything it must have been in Pretoria, Mr Chairman.
	Do you recall?

MS M MOLETE: I said that I have never been called into court.

MR LOWIES: Chair, I have a problem with my hearing device.  Sorry, I apologise.
	Now I'd like to read to you certain aspects that is the case of the applicants in this matter, and you'll find it at page 3208 and further, or the record.  Advocate Botha started off by stating that there are certain defence witnesses which he, on behalf of the accused and the applicants wanted to consult with and he raised the problem that you were one of them, but you did not want to consult with him and the other lawyers because you received an instruction from the ANC not to talk to anybody.

MS M MOLETE: That is not so, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Not to talk to anybody regarding the Boipatong matter ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No you see what - you've got to listen very carefully, what he is reading to you is what the advocate told the judge in court.  Now do you know anything about that conversation which took place between the judge and Advocate Botha?

MS M MOLETE: I said that is not so.

MR LOWIES: And is it not so that you did not want to talk to the defence witnesses, the defence advocates which included Mr Strydom?  It was Botha, Strydom and van Eck.

MS M MOLETE: There were no other people, it was only Mr Strydom that we talked to the last time I went there.

MR LOWIES: And the record reads further at page 3209, that you were called into the court, 3209 and 3210, the third line.  And you were called in inter alia with Florence Molete, Jeannette Monisi, Rebecca Motahung.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR LOWIES: I'm sorry, Chair, I'll repeat.
	It was yourself, Florence Molete, according to the record, Jane Monisi, Rebecca Motahung, Diamond Latha, Johanna Tsoatetsi and Joshua Mahlango and Simon Moloi.

MR LAX: Sorry, what was the name after Tsoatetsi, if you're repeat that for me please.