Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-29

MR WESSELS: So you received the last sum of money from the CCB in September and afterwards not again?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Afterwards I received money for my holiday although I did not have direct contact with the CCB, there was a situation where the attorneys who were appointed by the CCB, Schultz & Botha, and their legal costs and the applications that were brought for my release while I was under section 29, all those legal costs were paid by the CCB.  And also with my post mortem inquest and the Harms Commission, everything was paid by the Defence Force.  I wonder why they do that for somebody who was fired months ago.

MR WESSELS: They did not pay your salary though?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I did not receive a salary from the time when I was arrested, as I have told you before.

MR WESSELS: You see it is interesting that they will not pay your salary but they will cover your legal costs if you were a member of the CCB.

FERDINAND BARNARD: When did they not pay my salary?

MR WESSELS: You say that the last salary that you received was in September 1989.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I was busy talking about something else and I went over to the legal costs.  With my release I went to the attorneys' offices, or I was called to the offices and they asked me what were my immediate needs.  I asked for R6000,00.  It was more-or-less that.  I went to Nick McPherson, who was a senior police officer at the Detective Branch of the Security Police, he was in a co-ordinating capacity and they handed bags of money to attorneys to cover the legal costs, so as not to make it traceable back to the CCB.  They then contacted him and I was told to pick up R12,000.  The next day the CCB gave me R12,000.  I went to go and pick it up from the attorneys' offices.  And they also told me that I make use of the rest of the money to go on holiday, which I then did, for two weeks.

MR WESSELS: Why do you say you received it from the CCB?  You got it from McPherson, a policeman.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes Sir but McPherson was the policeman who was the liaison officer for the attorneys who were paid, they were paid large amounts of money.  After I was released from section 29 I went to go and gamble with all these attorneys who were involved, Hennie Goosen and another advocate, who were appointed by the Defence Force and who were manipulated by them.  I knew exactly how they paid over the money.  I was present.

MR WESSELS: What was your salary?

FERDINAND BARNARD: With benefits, R40,000 to R42,000 a month.

MR WESSELS: And did you resign from the CCB?

MR WESSELS: No Chairperson.  If I can recall correctly I was told by the attorneys that the CCB disbanded.  They were the people who spoke for me.  There were no channels to Joe Verster or General Webb.  They left us alone.  Everybody had to do his own thing.

MR WESSELS: And you did not make any claims at a later stage for a package from the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No I did not.

MR WESSELS: You are aware of the fact that the CCB officially disbanded and it was not a secret.  That was during the second half of 1990.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes I can remember that, I cannot specifically recall the date, but I do know that they disbanded.

MR WESSELS: And according to you they then owed you a salary up to that point in time?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot specifically say that but at some time they told me that the CCB disbanded.  That's how they work.  They tell you something, they disinform you in order to support their own objectives.

MR WESSELS: The CCB disbanded during 1990, second half of 1990 and according to you money would have been, or was owed to you because of salaries that they still owed you.

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I asked nobody for salaries, I only asked ...(intervention)

MR WESSELS: No Sir, I do not ask you if you asked them for it, I am asking you if they owed you it because you were a member of the CCB and according to the contract you can get that salary, or the salaries that they still owed you.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Well Sir I immediately went over to DCC and I got a salary there.

MR WESSELS: And you are aware of the fact that all the members of the CCB received packages of some kind?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No I am not aware of that.  I am aware of the fact that some of them wanted to take the CCB to court, or did take them to court because they did not receive their packages.

MR WESSELS: Yes that is true.  Some received it when it was offered to them, they accepted it and some of them also went to DCC.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, like I did.

MR WESSELS: But they still received packages.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I do not know Sir.

MR WESSELS: Some of them did not want to accept it and entered into litigation with the South African Defence Force in order to honour their contract.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I can recall that, yes.

MR WESSELS: And at a later stage they resolved the issue.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I do not know about that.

MR WESSELS: So all the members of the CCB who were members of the CCB when they disbanded received money as a severance package.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I do not know about that Sir, but apart from that I wanted to distance myself from them.  I was experiencing a lot of problems.  I did not want to have any contact with them further.

MR WESSELS: You see Mr Barnard I find it very strange, actually astonishing that you are the only person that did not receive a package.  You are a member of the CCB, you must get a salary, you do not get that salary, but you do not even ask for that salary.  You leave the CCB, you receive a package or a substantial amount of money, all these amounts were audited.  There are records of it.  Everybody receives money except you, and I find this remarkable.  Can you give us an explanation why you were so generous towards the government and the Defence Force that you didn't want the money.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Is it too late, is it maybe too late now?  Can I still get that money?

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard you can first answer my question.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir I did not do it because I wanted to distance myself from them.  I was immediately coopted or taken into the DCC and I was not interested in it.  And I also never signed a contract with them that if the CCB disbanded I will receive this and this and this.  I didn't do it.

MR WESSELS: Various other members of the CCB also went to DCC.

FERDINAND BARNARD: It's seems to be the case, yes.

MR WESSELS: And they received money.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I am very glad that they did.

MR WESSELS: You disappeared, you do not ask for money.

FERDINAND BARNARD: No I didn't.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairperson I would just like to place this in context.  The other members, or most of the other members to which my learned colleague is referring to were people who had existing work in the police, Coetzee from Region 6, for example, who served in State departments for a period of time and people who were recruited, I believe Mr Barnard's evidence is that he was not recruited from such a system where he had benefits as a State official or officer.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's probably a question for argument.  We are aware that people like Mr van Zyl and others actually gave up employment to become members of the CCB and that was not the case of Mr Barnard.  He came from an unemployed situation into the CCB.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard there were various other members in the CCB who also came from different categories to come and work for the CCB.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Can I just place that in perspective if the Advocate wants to cross-examine on this point.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard let me come back to my question to you ...(intervention)