Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR WILLS: Yes and I also just would like to record that this is the aspect of Baker's application where he's specifically referring to Kubheka incident.
	In any event, even though you were under the command of - you fell under the Vlakplaas operatives, your activities were controlled by Col Botha who was from the Security Branch in Durban?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So you weren't receiving orders from Vlakplaas operatives, basically your orders were emanating from the Durban Security Branch and specifically Botha?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you've given evidence to the effect that the purpose of your operation on the day that Kubheka was arrested, was in fact to deliver her to your white superiors, whether that's Botha or Taylor, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So when you woke up that morning and you contacted Kubheka, you were under no illusions as to what your purpose that day was, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And your purpose was specifically to arrest Kubheka, that's your evidence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you did that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, we did that.

MR WILLS: And you delivered Kubheka to the place at Battery Beach that was prearranged with, obviously with your superiors and there were white people there, including Botha?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now it's clear, I think it's common cause in fact, from the evidence of the applicants that you were driving the Toyota Corolla vehicle, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: No, not from the applicants, because we've had that statement that was read out in which it was said that Radebe was driving.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry, well I'm just ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just to clarify, it's only Radebe who says he was driving.

MR WILLS: Yes, well let me just be clearer on that.  You were driving a Corolla motor vehicle, not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And this had tinted windows, not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And from that I understand that any signal that you could give, it wouldn't be the sort of signal that you would give by hand from the interior of the motor vehicle because the windows were tinted, you couldn't see that from outside, not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, you could not see.

MR WILLS: So it seems that only one of two things could have been done, either you would have had to wind down the windows, or you would have had to give some sort of signal which was indicative from the outside of the vehicle, not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And your recollection of that signal is that you pressed the brake pedals three times, not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: And Mr Botha recalls, and I refer to page 1661 of the evidence ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what's that page again?

MR WILLS: 1661.
	... that the signal was to flash the indicator lights.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The signal was to press the brakes.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Botha said he wasn't sure, but that's what he thought.  Now it seems that if that was the signal that you were given that you had to give, then it would seem to indicate that you'd have to be driving the vehicle in order to give that signal, not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is so.

MR WILLS: Now how long had you been acting as an askari prior to this incident, and I'm not confining you to Natal, I'm asking you about generally?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I was arrested in 1983 and I started working at about August 1983.  I was arrested in February 1983 and then the same year, August, I started working until 1992.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry, I'm not sure, from August?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said he was arrested in February 1983 and then he became operative as an askari in August 1983 and he carried that through to 1992.

MR WILLS: Oh thank you, thank you Mr Chairman.
	So by the time you got involved in this operation you had at least three and a half to four years experience?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now it seems to me that under those circumstances if you'd made a mistake or if you hadn't performed your function according to the plan, you wouldn't have given the signal as you gave on that day, not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is so.

MR WILLS: So if you'd arrested the wrong person, it seems to me strange that you would drive that person all the way to the correct spot and you'd give the signal as determined, not so, you wouldn't have acted in that way?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I wouldn't have acted that way.

MR WILLS: It seems to me that in likelihood what you would have done is you would have communicated with your superiors beforehand and said "Look, let's not blow this whole operation, the matter hasn't really worked out as planned, so I'm not in a position to deliver this person", and you would have taken further instructions on what to do with the Kubheka woman.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I would go to the place, the Battery Beach and then get out of the car and go to them and tell them that I did not bring the person they asked me to fetch.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  But in this instance you gave the signal because as far as you were concerned you'd done exactly what you'd been asked to do, not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is so.

MR WILLS: Now Mr Botha has alleged, and some of his co-applicants, all his co-applicants except Mr Radebe have alleged that, have suggested that your order was to pick up the leader of a guerrilla movement on that day, somebody I think coming from Zambia, but not Ms Kubheka, did you ever get an instruction to that effect?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not get such instructions, I was only told about Ms Kubheka.

MR WILLS: Yes, and if I can just refer you to the evidence of, or should I say the statement of Mr de Kock that day, it seems to support what he says.  If you can just bear with me, Mr Chairperson.  I'm referring to a translation that I've had done of de Kock's statement and it appears at I think page, it commences at page 112 of the second bundle.  Sorry, no it doesn't Mr Chairperson, it commences at 11 - yes, 112.
	Now according to Mr de Kock, the information he got from Coetzer - and Mr Chairman, you'll have to excuse me, I've got a translation, it's not an official translation but I know it's accurate, but I haven't numbered it, it hasn't been numbered according to the paragraphs, but it looks like about ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that where it says
"About two or three days later"

MR WILLS: I think it's 3.2.2, the last sentence, or I'm concentrating on that paragraph.
"The operation was the infiltration of an ANC cell.  According to Joe (and that's Coetzer he's referring to), the leader of the cell was a woman.  The cell was active in the area."
Now were you under the impression that the deceased, Ms Kubheka, was the leader of this ANC cell that was operating in that area at that time?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I thought it that way.

MR WILLS: So this information that Mr, or it was Maj de Kock at that time, this is accurate, not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: Now he goes on to say, and I'm referring to the paragraph 3.2.4 I think, Mr Chairperson, that, and he's reporting on a conversation that he'd had with Joe Coetzer, a discussion regarding the female leader and there's no data as to who this would be, and Mr de Kock says that Coetzer informed him that Hentie, which is obviously Botha, Capt Botha intended to murder the black woman that evening.  Now what I want to ask you, was it your belief that possibly that night Ms Kubheka could be murdered?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know whether she was supposed to be killed.  What I knew is that they said that they wanted her to show them those four comrades.