Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

CHAIRPERSON: Good Morning to you all.  Today we are proceeding with the application of Mr Moses Mtu Dlamini.  Mr Panday, this morning we are to hear the evidence of Mr Sinagwenye Aka Ntshetha, who will be giving evidence in support of Mr Dlamini's application.

MR PANDAY: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we in a position to commence with his evidence?

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Mr Ntshetha?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Panday.  Are you going to use the affidavit that is contained in our bundle and is marked page 9?

MR PANDAY: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha is it correct that you were one of the accused in the matter that Moses Dlamini was charged in for murder and possession of an unlawful weapon?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Is it also correct that you were also found guilty for the murder of the victim that Mr Dlamini seeks amnesty for today?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, can you recall if any gentleman from the Truth and Reconciliation Committee came to see you at prison?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Can you recall if any discussions had transpired between you and this gentleman?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Did the gentleman take any statement from you?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, he took a statement.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, before we go through the statement, can you read and write?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No.

MR PANDAY: Did you give a statement to this gentleman?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: And how did you give the statement to him?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I told him the story from the beginning when I met these people whom I was staying with in the area up until a time when there was a problem between us and the people from Shayamoya where my brother Mashinela was staying.

MR PANDAY: Just before you go any further Mr Ntshetha, and did this gentleman take down the statement?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, he took down the statement.

MR PANDAY: Did he explain to you what he had taken down?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, he did explain after taking the statement.

MR PANDAY: And did you sign the statement.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I signed the statement.

MR PANDAY: How did you sign the statement?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: If my memory saves me well, I used a thumb.

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, the applicant refers the Committee to the statement that begins on page 13 and ends on page 21.  Would Madam Chair require that I show the witness the statement to confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and his thumb print which appears on page 21.

MR PANDAY: What I do have is a copy of the ...(indistinct).  Mr Ntshetha, I'm going to show you a statement that is handwritten and I'm going to ask you to either confirm or not if that is your thumbprint, that you had placed on this statement.  Madam Chair may I have leave to...?

CHAIRPERSON: You may.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, if you look carefully to the pages that I'm showing to you, I would like you to confirm on page 13 that's your thumb print at the bottom.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is the statement.

MR PANDAY: And the pages that follow, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21.  Are all of those your thumbprints on each page?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Do you confirm this is the statement that you had given to the person that took it down?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.  Mr Ntshetha, in paragraph ...(intervention).

MR MALAN: Just a second Mr Panday, have you read the statement to your client or to the witness.

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, would you require that I read the entire affidavit to the ...(intervention).

MR MALAN: Yes, have you read the entire affidavit out?

MR PANDAY: In consultation I have gone through the entire affidavit with the witness.

MR MALAN: Can he confirm the contents then, as you have read it out to him?

MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Please, will you just arrange for that?

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, while we were consulting earlier on, I read out the statement to you.  Do you confirm the contents of that statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed to make him confirm that statement, he is an illiterate person, he doesn't understand English.  Whilst you were consulting with him, I want to make a presumption that you were being assisted by a translator or an interpreter.

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, we had made use of the warden who understood Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Won't you put the translation in context, in order to enable him to confirm that which was translated to him by the warden concerned, by also referring to the name of the warden, so that it is on our records?

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, may I just have a small adjournment to take the name of the warden now?

CHAIRPERSON: There is no need for an adjournment, I think the warden can approach you and simply whisper his name to you.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.  Thank you.  Mr Ntshetha, can you recall that when I was going through the statement with you, we used the prison warden to assist us in explaining the statement that you had given to the gentleman from the TRC.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I do remember that.

MR PANDAY: Do you also confirm that the prison warden Mr Thusi, X E Thusi, that is sitting behind you with the blue shirt assisted us in translating your statement to you?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Do you also confirm or be able to confirm that he was able to translate the statement to you properly and effectively?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And that you also understood clearly what was being translated to you?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I understood the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose?  What was translated to you Mr Ntshetha?  Or would you prefer us to call you Ntshetha or Ngwenye?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Sinangwenye.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: What was translated to you, Sinangwenye, in accordance with the statement that you gave to the investigator in prison?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Ntshetha, is it correct that you are currently a prisoner being detained at Ngoma?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And that is for the murder of a victim, or the murder of a person which took place in 1992?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, I note from paragraph 1 of your statement on page 9, you indicate that you are a sentenced prisoner at Westville Prison.  Could you please explain, why do you say that you are now in Ngoma?

CHAIRPERSON: I think for such matters you may even leave them.  They are very innocuous and that will expedite these proceedings.  Just lead him that he was on this particular date transferred to Ngoma Prison and let him say yes or no.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.  Mr Ntshetha, were you transferred to Ngoma Prison after being sentenced from Westville Prison?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Will you please tell us the date or the year that you were transferred?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It's Ncoma Prison.  It's not even two months.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.  Mr Ntshetha, I'm going to take you now to paragraph 5 of your statement, which says that in 1989 June 25, you were released from prison.  Is that correct?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is true.

MR PANDAY: And what sentence were you serving then?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: It was housebreaking.

MR PANDAY: After being released from prison in 1989, where did you go to, Mr Ntshetha?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I went home at Ndwedwe.

MR PANDAY: And did you remain at Ndwedwe?