Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 1998-10-21

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Now Mr Seyisi do you know and excuse me if I pronounce this incorrectly, it looks like and I refer you to page 22 of the bundle 11(b) a Major Sikomiso Sumkiwe Noncuba.

MR LAX: You're referring to paragraph 13(a) of page 23 is that right Mr Nel?

MR NEL: No Mr Chairperson it's page 22, paragraph 11(b).

MR LAX: That's Komiso Sumpiwe Noncuba.

MR NEL: That's correct.  My question is do you know this person?

MFUNDI SEYISI: I do not know him.

MR NEL: Well according to your fellow amnesty applicant, Mr Mgengo, this would have been the person who ordered him to assist you with the logistics of this matter.  Have you got any idea of that?

MFUNDI SEYISI: No, I know nothing of that sort.

MR NEL: Mr Mgengo also says that he was, if I look at paragraph 9(a)iv on page 90, he talks about the target being Umbilo or Brighton Beach Police Station in Durban and then he further goes on the next page to say that my assignment was to assist them with all the relevant information and assist them with logistically and financially where need be, further to always become available, either personally or by telephone where need be.  Do you know anything about this allegation?

MFUNDI SEYISI: The statement that you are reading from is not mine, I think that is not Mgengo's statement.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, what's being put to you Mr Seyisi is that according to Mr Mgengo's statement he says that his assignment was to assist in this operation either personally or through the telephone, financially or logistically.  The question is merely do you know whether that is so or if you don't know, you must just say so.

MFUNDI SEYISI: I have no knowledge thereof Mgengo brought this guy and explained whatever he had to explain and that was all.

MR NEL: Because according to Mr Mgengo, it seems from his amnesty application that he was to deal directly with you, Xolani Cuba and the person who died in the bomb blast, Mr Namba.  That's according to his application but you bear no knowledge of such assistance logistically or financially as he states?

MFUNDI SEYISI: No I have no knowledge.

MR NEL: When did you become aware of the fact that Mr Namba had an MPM limpet mine?

MFUNDI SEYISI: On the morning of the day of the incident.

MR NEL: At the time, Mr Seyisi, what was your political affiliation?

MFUNDI SEYISI: I was a member of PASO.

MR NEL: And when you travelled with this person on the bus carrying a limpet mine did you think of the consequences or did you realise what you were going to do?

MFUNDI SEYISI: The main objectives of APLA, an APLA cadres was to fight segregation as well as the previous government and I knew somehow that the limpet mine was going to be used for that job in particular.

MR NEL: And I take it that you also then realise that innocent people could either have been injured or killed in the use of this limpet mine?

MFUNDI SEYISI: No, a limpet mine is not designated or designed to injure people who were innocent but what happened is that it exploded prematurely.

MR NEL: I have difficulty with that answer because say for instance you planted this limpet mine at the Umbilo Police Station and a member of the public was in the police station complaining about a car accident or the cleaner was sweeping the floor, being an innocent person, did you not realise that would be - could have been one of the implications?

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose it depends, Mr Nel, on the limpet mine.  Aren't they usually devices that can be timed, it depends where it was put, what time it was set off to go, if it was put on the police station it could be set of to go off to go at 3 in the morning or it could be - on the other hand it could be set off to go mid afternoon in a very busy place, we don't know that but perhaps if the witness can answer your question, see if he knew where it was to be set precisely and when it was to go off.

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Yes, do you know or did Namba tell you when this limpet mine was to go off?

MFUNDI SEYISI: I don't have any further knowledge, Namba knew everything because he was in control of the whole operation.

MR NEL: Was Namba trained in explosives?

MFUNDI SEYISI: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I may just intervene.  Mr Seyisi, did you see the limpet mine?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Yes I saw it on that particular morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just tell me, give an indication as to how big it was?  What did it look like?

MFUNDI SEYISI: It's about this size.

CHAIRPERSON: He's indicating the size by holding the two palms of his hands in a circular position indicating a diameter of about 20 centimetres.  Sorry Mr Nel.

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Did Mr Xolani Cuba know about the limpet mine when you left Red Hill would you be able to say?

MFUNDI SEYISI: I wouldn't have an idea because when it was shown to me I was all by myself, I was alone.

MR NEL: Was this still in Red Hill when you were shown the limpet mine?

MFUNDI SEYISI: That is correct.

MR NEL: You obviously know that a number of people were injured in the bomb blast apart from Mr Namba losing his life?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Yes I heard later on about the people who got injured.

MR NEL: Specifically the person whom I'm representing here, Miss Meyer, who was 15 at the time and at school.  Due to that bomb blast she had to leave school and underwent major brain surgery to such an extent that she is badly effected by the operation, caused by the bomb blast, to such an extent that she today at the age of 19 cannot work.

MFUNDI SEYISI: I'm not aware of that fact.

MR NEL: I take it Mr Seyisi from your evidence with regards to your political objectives this was definitely not what you had in mind causing an injury to a person like Miss Meyer?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Yes I had already stated before that it was not meant for it to go off or to explode in the bus.

MR NEL: ...[inaudible] is to view any remorse or anything with regards to unnecessary injuries caused, but what is your position today with regards to the injuries of inter alia Miss Meyer and many other victims?

MFUNDI SEYISI: I could say that people like Miss Meyer happened to be caught in the crossfire, they were unintended victims of the whole operation because it was not intended or meant for them to be injured.

MR NEL: I have nothing further Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman.
	Mr Seyisi, will I be correct to state that the passengers in the bus were not the target but the police stations?

MFUNDI SEYISI: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I further be correct to state that the passengers in the bus whom we refer to as victims today were injured by mistake?

MFUNDI SEYISI: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And further that no political objective being attached to that incident?

MFUNDI SEYISI: What I can say is, there was a political objective, even though the limpet mine exploded prematurely and even though they were not the intended victims but we were members of APLA and we were soldiers of APLA on a certain or specific mission.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, we agree but what I'm saying is, in as far as the bus incident was concerned because that was not the target, that was not in the plan, that was an accident?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Yes they were not the targets.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want to if you've got a copy of the application, can you look at page 15, that is 15 of the bundle, paragraph 14.  That's where you state the political objective envisaged was and then you enumerate them up to point 4.  Do you see that?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you see that?  Before I continue with the questions on this, what is meant by "misurrection", is it action under - or what does it mean?

CHAIRPERSON: If you take a look, do you have that copy before you Mr Seyisi?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Yes I do.