Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Sorry, okay.  There was a taxi parked outside, and people were shot in that taxi.  I asked the comrades who were with me what do we do now, and can we go down and organise other comrades and tell them what happened.
	We went to Tanzania Section and the comrades had already received the report about a taxi that had been shot at, and we explained to them that yes, we saw the taxi and we met the people.
	And the people who might have done this, ran into the hostel.  The comrades said we should stand on our feet, we shouldn't let this unattended.  People will still be killed continuously.
	What we were supposed to do was to find those people.  That is where Simon Mkhabela gets into this whole picture.

MR MOHLABA: Yes, you may proceed and tell this Committee until the moment when Mkhabela was killed.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, we decided that these people must be accosted, I think it was after three weeks when we had finished our patrol in the morning, and the comrade who was with me, his name is Titus, he wanted to go home.  He left and came back after a few minutes.
	When he came back, he had a gas cylinder, he told us that he was going to refill the gas cylinder and he asked us to go with him.  We said no, we can't, go and when you come back, you will get us here.
	Titus came back running, he said come, come and see.  We asked him what was happening, and he said no, do not ask, come let's go.  He told us that I saw a person whom we met on that day when the people were shot.  Yes, when we arrived at the firms we found Joseph Mkhabela.  We discussed this issue with the comrades about what we will do with him, how we will approach him.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you find Mr Mkhabela?  I think the interpretation referred to a firm, what do you mean by that?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Next to the township, there are small development corporations, that is where we found Mr Mkhabela.  When we found him, we organised as to how we would approach him.
	He got out, he jumped into a kombi and the kombi drove out of the firms.  One of the comrades suggested that we leave him, we would find him some other time.  What we would do, we would take the registration numbers and trace who the owner of the kombi was.  That is how Joseph Mkhabela left.
	On the 16th, we were from a memorial service.  It was roundabout half past four to five o'clock, it was a large group of comrades.  When we were at the corner of Roets Drive and Moagi, we separated with comrades.  Others were going to their Sections and we were going to our Section.
	The comrades from Tanzania Section were eight in number.  While we were still waiting for the cars so that we can cross the road, that kombi approached.  It drove passed us, comrade Veli noticed and he said comrades, this is the kombi that we had been looking for, and we said what should we do now, now that the kombi is here?
	One comrade said we cannot leave this person alone, we want to know who he is.  The kombi stopped at a distance, off loading the people.  The comrades said this is a very good chance of getting hold of this driver, and I said to them it won't help us to go and talk to that driver, because no one of us is armed.
	One comrade said don't worry, I have a gun with me and can we wait for him to off load the people first and thereafter we would go and talk to him.  I asked comrade Titus, I told comrade Titus to go and reconnoitre, to go and see as to whether he is the same person whom he saw.  Titus went close to the kombi and he came back.
	He said comrades, this is the person that we are looking for.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Selahle, I am finding it so difficult to keep up with the pace at which you are giving your evidence.  For the last time, I am going to request you, we would like you to give your evidence at a pace at which we can be able to also write down what you are saying.
	It is also important for the Translator to pick up each and every word you give in evidence, which you are giving in Sotho, and translate it into English.  You therefore are doing yourself a disservice if you speak at a pace which disadvantages him from being able to translate your evidence appropriately word for word.
	Do you understand?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I am also finding it difficult to comprehend your evidence, because you are putting in people's names, you are putting in information which to me, is out of context with what you are applying for.  Mr Mohlaba, we would request you to take charge of Mr Selahle's evidence, by giving him direction and where his evidence, I think does not give particulars, we would want you to stop him in order to make sure that he gives those particulars.
	It will fast track these proceedings, we won't have to be coming back to his evidence in chief, in order to fill in the holes that appear to be going bigger and bigger as he proceeds to give his evidence.
	He has referred to Titus, we don't know who this Titus is, we don't know that he was a member of this particular Unit.  He speaks of Sections, he has spoken of Tanzania Section, we don't know whether that is the Unit where Mr Selahle operated from, whether he belonged to the Tanzania Section Unit.  We really want to get the evidence that will enable us to proceed and we don't have to come back when we ask him from the bench to fill in those details.
	I think it really simply protracts these proceedings.

MR MOHLABA: I am indebted to the Chair.  Mr Selahle, can I just take you back, you have mentioned of going to the hostel to collect bullets.  Where were you collecting these bullets from and what was the purpose for this trip?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Comrade Peter and comrade Titus arrived on the 25th of January, it was in the morning and they told me that they were going to see a certain comrade at Eastfield and they were going to fetch bullets from him.
	We left then for Eastfield, we did not get hold of comrade Lloyd.  Instead of going back, there was another comrade called Paul.  They suggested that we go to him, because he might be of assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, please come to our rescue.  Now we are being given a litany of names, we don't know of what relevance these names are, it is Peter, it is Titus, there are so many names.  We don't know in what context.
	I thought you wanted to know, he had spoken about bullets being obtained from the hostel and you wanted to know why they had gone to collect bullets from that hostel.  We don't know why Mr Selahle is giving these various names, in what respect do they impinge on the question that you have put to him?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Can I carry on?

CHAIRPERSON: The people that you have mentioned, Peter, Titus and them, that they arrived on the 25th of January and told you that they were going to fetch, Eastfield, that they were going to Eastfield, who are they?  Are they the members of  your Unit?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What were they going to do at Eastfield?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: They were going to see Lloyd concerning the bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: In your evidence you mentioned that one day you went to look for bullets at the hostel.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes.   Paul is one comrade we found at the hostel, and he told us that he did not have, we went to find bullets from Paul, he said he did not have, but there is someone in the hostel whom we can see in connection with bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still remember the question that were asked by your lawyer?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the question?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The question was who did we go to fetch bullets from the hostel and for what reason did we go and fetch those bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you now answer that question, that question only?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Truly speaking, I did not know that person but we needed the bullets.  We had firearms and we were short of ammunition.