Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DU PLESSIS: ...sight of the regulations.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, the regulations, the Commission's regulations.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes what I have is I have a copy of theguidelines in respect of procedure.  As far as the regulationsin terms of the Act are concerned I was given the indication bythe people we dealt with at the Truth Commission that the regulationshave not been published, specific regulations under the Act havenot been published yet.  So I am not aware of any regulationswhich have been lawfully published.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mpshe can you tell us about this?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I am not aware of the regulationsto the Act being promulgated here.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman as far as ...(indistinct) representationis concerned it is included in the Act, I think section 34 thereofmakes mention of that, but I am not aware of the regulations,but section 34 makes room for the last thing that the Chair hasjust indicated.

UNKNOWN: The regulations have been published asfar as the prescribed form is concerned and the annexure of thenature of the notice is prescribed in form 2 in the same regulations. That is as far as notice is concerned to applicants and to peopleinterested and families and victims.  I think the HRV Committeewas in the process of promulgating regulations in connectionsof section 29
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hearings and that was where subpoenas were dealt with.  So ifyou can investigate whether there is a prescribed form of thesubpoena and what that would prescribed, it's not in the Act. There's not an inscription in the Act, it's only authorisingus to promulgate the regulations but I don't know whether theyhave promulgated the regulations in connection with subpoenas.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman inasfar as I concur with the memberof the Committee just about the regulations, but inasfar as thequestion of the subpoenas concerned in terms of Section 29 thespecifications are mentioned in Section 29 itself to the effectthat it has got to be in this form, it has got to be signed byyour Commissioner and the form must indicate the time and placewhere this person must appear.  Now what I am trying to say isinasfar as a subpoena is concerned we do not have a problem, theTRC has got a policy on that.  And that is the same policy thatI used when we subpoenaed General van der Merwe.  A subpoena canbe issued, we have a policy and we've got a legal opinion on thataspect.  That one is clarified.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman I may mention that I am inpossession of a copy of the subpoena utilised by the Truth andReconciliation Commission.  I have read through it now.  It doesn'trefer to the Criminal Procedure Act, it doesn't refer to the regulationsand it doesn't make provision for any time period.  It is justa subpoena requesting or ordering the person to come and giveevidence or to answer questions relevant to the applications ata hearing.  I wasn't under the impression, apart from the formthat has been promulgated that any other regulations have beenpromulgated.  So the way I read it is that the Commission
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can act in terms of Section 29 and subpoena anybody in respectof the holding of a hearing by notice in writing to appear beforethe Commission and to give evidence or to answer questions relevantto the subject matter of the hearing.  And that is why I directthat request.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand your request in respectof these two persons would be to give evidence relating to andrelevant to the Pepco 3, to be limited to that?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: We will adjourn for a few minutes to considerthe application.  If any other parties have any requests theycan notify us.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
COMMITTEE RESUMES

JUDGE WILSON: We direct that notice in writing in termsof Section 29(1)(c) of Act 34 of 1995, the Promotion of NationalUnity and Reconciliation Act be given to Mr Sakkie van Zyl, MrDion Nieuwoudt, Mr Gert Besselaar and Mr Winter who was stationcommander at Cradock in 1985, these being the persons referredto in the evidence yesterday of Colonel Venter, that they arecalled upon to appear before the Commission on Monday the 28thof October to give evidence in connection with the Pepco 3 at09H30 at this venue.
 We further direct that the notice is to draw their attentionto the fact, in terms of Section 30 of the Act, that they havebeen implicated by the evidence led before this hearing, serviceof such notice to be effected tomorrow at the latest.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: There is nothing further to deal with inthat connection.  We now adjourn this hearing of all these
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matters till 09H30 on Monday morning.  We are not certain as yetof the precise venue but it will be in all probability somewherein this building.  Notices will be available on Monday morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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DAY 4 - 29-10-1996

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : (MR MPSHE'S MICROPHONE NON-FUNCTIONAL)

CHAIRPERSON: The interpreters are unavailable.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : (Inaudible).

JUDGE WILSON: : We were told that he was on his way hereand that he would be here by 11 o'clock I think was the time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : (Inaudible).

MR: Mr Chairman can I cut in here that is correct,Mr Nieuwoudt's attorney phoned us on Friday and they said thatthey would be coming and they would only be able to be here by11 because they could not get a flight earlier but they wouldbe here.   That is what they told us on Friday.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : (Inaudible no microphone).

CHAIRPERSON: Please hand it in.   Yes, would you pleaseplace yourself on record?

MR DE VILLIERS: The name is Wium De Villiers and theinstructing attorney is Mr Viaan Roux and we.....

CHAIRPERSON: Say that again?

MR DE VILLIERS: My name is Wium De Villiers I am fromthe Pretoria Bar and my instructing attorney is Mr Viaan Rouxand we represent Mr Van Zyl.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Beselaar, is he represented?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : (Inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Beselaar would you please stand, are younot legally represented.

MR: (Inaudible, no microphone).

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that he is prepared, shouldit be decided that these proceedings carry on, is he raising nodifficulties about short notice?
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MR: Mr Chairman he is prepared to givehis
evidence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : (Inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Winter you have no difficulty of the shortnotice that was given to you?

MR WINTER: Mr Chairman may I just mention that I haven'tbeen....[interjection in Afrikaans]....(reply inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Can you indicate what your attitude is?

MR WINTER: I beg your pardon sir?

CHAIRPERSON: What is your attitude to this hearing and togiving evidence?

MR WINTER: Sir I have a slight problem which I discussedwith Mr Mpshe and I wouldn't like to make it public here but Iam of the mind that I am willing to stand for whatever would beasked of me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : ...it is due to the fact that the subpoenawas sent to Port Elizabeth on Wednesday Mr Chairman and it was(inaudible - microphone not switched on)...

CHAIRPERSON: In the light of the information that thereis a likelihood of Mr Nieuwoudt and/or his legal representativeturning up this morning at about 11 o'clock, it might be prudentto take no further decisions on what should happen in connectionwith the proceedings in which they are required to give evidence.  If it does not inconvenience Mr De Villiers, can you Mr De Villiersmake yourself available a little later in the day when we canascertain whether Mr Nieuwoudt is represented?