Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

MR LAX: Sorry, the revolvers.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Oh, the revolver.  38 Special.

MR LAX: Somewhere in these papers and it might not necessarily be in yours, I might be confused, mention is made of a shotgun.  Did anyone have a shotgun?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, it was a handgun, not a shotgun.

MR LAX: Okay.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There was a stand, maybe that's why the word shotgun was used, but a stand I think qualify with the submachine pistol or submachine guns.

MR LAX: When you say "a stand" you are referring to some sort of a tripod?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, it would be a stand.

MR LAX: Sorry.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Stand, submachine gun.

MR LAX: Okay, I'm with you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You may proceed, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Last question, where did Phila go to after he left this area?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I went to Lesotho.

MR LAX: You went to Lesotho?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Carry on Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman now I'll go to the last sentence of paragraph 6.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you do that, can I ask a question.  Who was the director of operations you reported directly to?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was, we normally know him as Happy.  Then he is known as Lethlapha Mphahlele.

MR MBANDAZAYO: May I proceed, Mr Chairman?  Thank you Mr Chairman.
"I was therefore always helping cadres at my disposal as I was involved in training new recruits".
Can you explain that to the Committee?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The area was used for training cadres,  cadres, people who came for training, maybe from Transkei at Umtata or around other areas of Transkei.  Some were sent to my area for training, so I will be responsible for that.  I will take part as an instructor, I also acted as an instructor.  I would conduct classes, military classes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you explain what you do with those cadres after you have trained them to the Committee?  Can you explain that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Some I will be imported them in some other operations and others I won't be involved with them.  They will be sent to, I will send them maybe to Transkei where they will be redeployed into other areas.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 7, Mr Chairman
"We were four operatives for the Lady Grey Herschel Ambush.  It was myself as a Commander, armed with R4 rifles", Mr Chairman.  "Kleintjie, armed with 38 Special", Mr Chairman.
Mr Chairman, for the purposes of the Committee Kleintjie is Thabiso James Makoala, the other applicant in this matter. 
"Roger armed with Special .38 Special, and Scorpion armed 9mm short"
At the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: While you are supplying names, can you supply names for these other people?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I am supplying those I can, I will ask to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you ask him if he can?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I have read that paragraph you have heard Mr Chairman.  Can you tell us what was the real name, do you know the real name of Roger armed, who was armed with .38 Special and Scorpion armed with 9mm short?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know even of, I started to know it when I met even this one of Kleintjie.  I know him all along as Kleintjie.  I met him I think '96 at Grootvlei at Bloemfontein.  I started then to know his real name. They also ...(inaudible) two Comrades.  I don't know their real names.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please ask your client to speak into the microphone.  He is leaning right across, speaking across it, looking at us understandably it makes it very difficult to hear him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Made to repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: So he doesn't know the names of Roger and Scorpion?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At the time of the incident, the time of this incident we were staying at Jozanna's Walk in Transkei.

MR MBANDAZAYO: "At the time of this incident we were staying at Jozanna's Walk in Transkei"  Will you be able to, can you explain to the Committee how far this area you were staying, this Jozanna's Walk to where this incident took place?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I will say it was very far.

MR LAX: Are you able to give us an estimation in kilometres, or

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: A couple of miles.  Take it to be more than 10 plus.

MR LAX: So not more or more than?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It's more than.  I take it to be.

MR LAX: More than 10 kilometres, sorry.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Let's say miles.

MR LAX: Miles.  So that would be sixteen kilometres?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We hiked on a truck to this spot and the arms were in the bag.  I was the only person who knew what was going to happen and I briefed my unit when we arrived at the spot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, the question is for the benefit of the Committee, whether when you were travelling to this spot, did the other Comrades not know what was going to happen and whether they did not now whether you are carrying weapons in the bag?  Can you explain to the Committee?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The, my Comrades, they knew where we are going, that is we are going to an operation, but they did not know what form of an operation and the kind of an operation that we are going to embark on it.

MR LAX: Sorry, but they knew the area you were going to?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Continue, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: "I deployed the unit on the same side of the road.  I told them that we were to attack cars whose occupants were white."  Now, my first question would be, do you still remember which side of the road you deployed with the Comrades?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I'm not sure about which side.  I don't recall it now.  I think my fellow Comrade who has also applied for this case maybe will help me in this.

MR LAX: Have you looked at the photographs in the new bundle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Not yet.

MR LAX: Maybe you should have a look at the photograph on page 17.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Which bundle Mr Chairman?

MR LAX: The new bundle, bundle "B", in other words.  This is a photograph taken from the air and Sterkspruit area is on the top and Lady Grey direction is at the bottom.  Maybe you can indicate to us on that photograph on the left or the right.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think we were on the, in which direction do I have to position myself when I look at it?

MR LAX: Well, if you are on the bottom of the photograph, looking towards the top of the photograph, you are looking in the direction of Sterkspruit.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Okay.

MR LAX: I have made available the original photograph for clarity for the witness.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I'm not sure about that, which side I was on it.

MR LAX: Please continue, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Now, my same paragraph, Mr Chairman,
"I told them that we were to attack cars whose occupants were white"
Can you explain that to the Committee?  I will repeat again, 
"I told them", paragraph 9, Mr Chairman "that we were to attack cars whose occupants were white".  Can you explain that to the Committee?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As a APLA Cadre, also as a member of the PAC we were engaged in the struggle to liberate this country, which was usurped by whites or normally ...(indistinct) Settler's Colonists.  So our struggle was therefor for a liberation of mankind and of the overthrow of those Settlers, and the orders that I have from Mr Sibelo Palma, who is late current, gave us, my orders that I have to engage Settlers and continue with the arms struggle.    And also, with the situation which emancipated around started 1990's whereby we find that African people civilians were being killed.  The APLA structured High Command decided that we have to attack settlers whether they were normally known as so-called civilians in as a question of reprisal and in also as a self-defence as our people were being killed in cases like Boipathong, the question of the trains and etc.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying it was the APLA High Command policy at that time to attack whites, whoever they might be?