Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: What I can only add in recollection now at this point is that this incident and the one I would speak to after, concerned people who were part of the Labour Party and who were police reservists and on a number of occasions had also harassed activists in the area, in particular I remember an incident where activists who had UDF banners near if my memory serves me correct, Christ the King Church, and one of the associates were also a police reservist, and a senior member of the Labour Party, Mr Clyde Pearce, chased one of the people, I think it was Greta Apelgren's brother into the church and there were a number of other reports of harassment by the same group of people.   They were viewed in terms of loose talk at that time, as the armed wing of the Labour Party, that is how people spoke of them.   But I mention, it is neither here nor there, I just mention it for the sake of completeness, in this operation I was unaware of the target before, other than that, I have no problem with the target.

MR DEHAL: So for the purposes of the record, you regarded it nonetheless as a legitimate target?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: For the reasons you have outlined, namely not least he is a police reservist, his being a police reservist and his being a member of the Labour Party?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: The Greta Apelgren that you referred to, is she the applicant Zahrah Narkedien in this matter?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: I then take you to the next operation, which is a handgrenade attack on the house of Mr Peter Klein on the 1st of May 1986.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr - these two handgrenade attacks occurred after you became a full member of the ANC and MK?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: Are these the only two attacks that you were involved in as against members of the tricameral system, etc?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: As far as I can recall, yes sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: Why weren't there more, there were surely many more of these characters in Durban or in the area at that time?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Sir, I think we got arrested before we could carry out more operations.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Thank you Judge.  Mr McBride, the handgrenade attack on the house of Mr Peter Klein is dealt with in bundle A1 on page 9 as item 15.  Do you see that?  Sorry, item 15, yes.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Now, this is an item, this is an operation that you were charged for, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: In the trial that we talk about?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.

MR DEHAL: And therefore you do not refer to it in your application for amnesty specifically, but in paragraph 9(a)(i) as a part of all the acts listed in your indictment, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I endeavoured, I don't know if I succeeded completely in putting all the counts from my indictment, under one section and referring the Committee to the indictment, so that I didn't, I was not aware of all the aspects as I did not have the record of the charges, but I wanted to get amnesty on the basis of the indictment, whatever it was.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.   You see that the persons injured here are Mr Peter Klein, Brenda Klein as per page 9 and there were no persons that were deceased, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: In the content of Exhibit G on paragraph 10 you say that this operation is similar to the operation where there was a handgrenade attack on the school principal, Leaf's house?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: You also say that you were convicted of this operation on the grounds of having supplied training and material to the comrades who were involved in this operation?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Would these comrades have been persons who worked under you within the cell that you operated?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: You also say that you did not give any specific personal instructions for the Klein attack and the Klein house as a target?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: If I may take you to (ii), here you deal with the intention nonetheless, can you deal with that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.
	"However here again Mr Klein was a police reservist closely associated with the Labour Party.  At that stage police reservists were viewed as collaborators and this was compounded by the fact that Klein was an influential member of the Labour Party and that this Party participated in the tricameral system which was perceived by the ANC as being illegitimate and supporting the concept of apartheid and racism in South Africa.  
	Furthermore I repeat the Labour Party supported the state of emergency and cross-border raids.  In this operation there was serious injuries to Mr and Mrs Klein.  However, the sum total of my involvement in this operation was training and arming people in accordance with the instructions that I had received from my Commander, Rashid, and also the general instructions from the ANC to attack collaborators and police."

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, you do take responsibility for this incident, do you not?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I take responsibility for this incident.

MR DEHAL: You have no difficulty with Mr Klein's house as having been a legitimate target?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No, I have no difficulty with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who carried out the attack?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, the attack was carried out by one of my co-applicants, Matthew Lecordier and Antonio du Preez, who was a co-accused of my father in the trial that took place simultaneously with mine in 1987.

MR DEHAL: And Mr du Preez was charged for this incident as well?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: He was charged and sentenced to 15 and a half years, which he served some of the time on Robben Island.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr McBride, these two, you say that you were unaware of the target before the attack.   Was that how you operated in your unit?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were the Commander even at that stage?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you give instructions to your members to identify targets or did you, did they know what sort of targets to identify?  If you could just expatiate on that a bit?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Yes, I told them that they should attack enemy personnel, there was a casspir also they were told to attack.  For both the handgrenade attacks, army, police, collaborators, that is as far as I can remember.  I can just add also, I had given them instructions that they should not throw the grenade against the house, because there are incidents where it bounced back and injured them.  I instructed them specifically to throw the handgrenades into the window, to stand close by.   The purpose of the attacks was to kill or injure enemy personnel or collaborators.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to get clarity on how it worked.  Would you have been informed prior to the attack, that they were going to carry out an attack or did you only sort of learn ex post facto that the attack had taken place and that was the first time that you were aware of an attack?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I would know that an attack would take place within the next few weeks or the next few days, because I have issued the weapons to them.  I wouldn't know specifically the day the attack would take place on, or the specific intended target.

JUDGE PILLAY: Would you know in giving or providing the equipment the details of the plan?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Not specifically sir, no.

JUDGE PILLAY: On what basis would you then approve of a planned attack?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well, that it would be against enemy personnel and collaborators, as I mentioned, that is all.

JUDGE PILLAY: Not who and where?