Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR NTSEBEZA: I think some of the concerns, certainly from the Commissioners emanate from perceptions then and perceptions now, the perceptions then were that all those people, including yourselves who were engaged in trying to resolve this issue felt compromised and one of the reasons was that it was because the personality with whom you were engaged was not only a powerful political leader in her own right, but also the wife of one of the most revered leaders of our country.  Now that's the perception then.
 The perception now, and it is one that also brushes and interrogates our ability to find is that even as we ask you questions we avoid to raise this issue as a perception that even as we ask questions from you we don't put it directly to you as I am putting it now, whether even if it is with the benefit of hindsight it was not for you personally also the reason that you were dealing at that stage with a powerful political leader in her own right as well as the wife of one of the most revered political leaders, did that not weigh heavily with you to a point where you were prepared to accept her say-so even in matters where you have the gravest concern, you felt you couldn't interrogate what by all accounts was a credible leader and the wife of a revered leader, is that not what is at the bottom of all this?

REV MBANGULA: I think it is true to a point that what you have described must have been particularly, I would say yes for me.  I think Mrs Mandela is respected and I respect her, but at the same time I think to me I wanted to find a way in which I could answer to the people of my church, but the points you have raised I think they are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Faizel.

DR RANDERA: Bishop I just want to ask you two questions actually and I don't know whether you have seen - sorry Reverend, okay, let's go back to - I don't know whether you have seen this document which is marked "Private and Confidential - prepared for the Crisis Committee", I understand it was also handed to us by Bishop Storey.  It says, the "alleged abduction of youths from Orlando West premises of the Methodist Church".

REV MBANGULA: No Sir I can't recall that.

DR RANDERA: Okay, let me ask my questions anyway.  In this document a young man, also 14 years old by the name of Maxwell Rabolo is mentioned, do you recall this young boy?

REV MBANGULA: No.

DR RANDERA: Again it was, he stayed at the manse and there was the whole question of whether him being an informer and also meeting and going to Mrs Mandela's house, coming back, bringing people in, you don't recall that?

REV MBANGULA: No.

DR RANDERA: The other point and maybe I should have asked Reverend Chikane this as well, but it says here, in late October 1988" and let me say yesterday of course this whole issue was cleared but I still think in the context of the time we need to understand this. It says- "...Verryn reported to Peter Storey and Frank Chikane that rumours were circulating in which he was alleged to be practising homosexual acts on you".
Now this is long before, two months before Katiza allegedly goes and says he was sodomised by the Reverend Verryn.  Again I just want to understand from you, were you aware of these rumours that were circulating at that time?

REV MBANGULA: I can't remember that.  The first time I became aware of this was at that point.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Piers.

MP PIGOU: I have no further questions for Reverend Mbangula, but I'd like to start with Father Mkhatswa if that's alright.

CHAIRPERSON: Well maybe, I don't know whether you want to not have him be a solo act and you want to sit here and hold his hand.  Okay.

MP PIGOU: Thank you Archbishop.  Just a few questions Father Mkhatswa.  I was speaking with some people the other day about the events of this time and they were saying that the issues and concerns that you have said that you were working, or you were a member of the UDF Civic movement and I wonder whether you remember discussions at that time before or after you got drawn into this particular incident of your visit to Mrs Mandela whether you can give us some insight into what sort of issues you were discussing and you are hearing about at that time?

FATHER MKHATSWA: I am not so sure Mr Chairperson whether it would be true to say that this matter was discussed by UDF structures all over the country, but certainly because of media reports one must assume that MDM structures, including the UDF and so on certainly did, one would like to assume that this matter must have been discussed at some stages but that's just a very general statement.

MP PIGOU: So therefore in the structures that you were directly involved in this matter wasn't discussed at any great length?

FATHER MKHATSWA: No, except with the individuals, individual comrades.

MP PIGOU: Thank you.  I now want to go to the meeting that we've been discussing with Reverend Mbangula about meeting with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, I don't think we need to debate on what day it is, I think let's just talk about the meeting itself.  Again I would refer to Bishop Storey's report and particularly on the issue about what questions were asked to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about the whereabouts of the boys.  Can you recall at all what happened in that meeting?

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well I think as my colleague has already pointed out the purpose of the visit was in no way confrontational at all.  It was a pastoral visit at the request of my colleague Reverend Mbangula concerning the allegation that some young men had been removed from the Methodist Church into the custody of Mrs Mandela so that was really the purpose of the visit, and I don't really remember us asking too many questions.

MP PIGOU: Had you been made aware by the gentleman sitting next to you that one of the people that had been taken from the Methodist manse had been brutally assaulted or allegedly so at that stage?

FATHER MKHATSWA: Unfortunately the invitation to accompany Reverend Mbangula was made at very short notice. We did not even, among the three of us we didn't get an opportunity to discuss the matter and to get more facts.

MP PIGOU: Did you not find it strange and I know we've explored this avenue with other people but I think it's important to get your perspective on it, did you not find it strange that in the words, and I'll use your words here in your statement
"... that children were being abused in the mission home and that she, being Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had decided to take them into her house as protection".
 In Reverend Mbangula's statement he said she had sent some people to collect some young men so as to ensure their protection from what she perceived then as abuse.  Didn't you find that strange in the context of the allegation of sexual abuse and then people from Mrs Mandela's household are sent to go and fetch them to her rather than to make perhaps more enquiries about what was going on herself more directly perhaps, perhaps even going to the Manse itself, I mean did you think that this was quite normal for Mrs Mandela to instruct people to go there, here there and everywhere to go and pick people up?

FATHER MKHATSWA: Mr Chairperson I really wouldn't like to engage in post facto  speculation because we had gone there specifically as I said, not to interrogate Mrs Mandela but to draw her attention to the fact that there was deep concern in the community about the young men that were presumably in her house, in her custody and also as much as possible to discuss with her the possibility perhaps of lessening the tensions that obviously we were aware existed between herself and members of the Crisis Committee, but we didn't go there as almost the spiritual arm of the Crisis Committee, we went there as three clergymen in order to try and resolve a situation that obviously was beginning to be the talk of the country as it were.