Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Hlengiwe. If I can just ask two brief questions in conclusion. I would like to take you back to the two categories you mentioned of the targets which you chose, which were pylons and then the Government facilities.
 Could you explain why that was and why possibly the targets changed in later years?

LALOO CHIBA: Could you just clarity the question, how do you mean the targets changed in later years?

CHAIRPERSON: Between hard targets and soft targets, if you like, between targets which obviously were not going to affect people and in later years, targets were chosen which did affect people.

LALOO CHIBA: Well, if you are, I think you are referring to the subsequent loss of life, civilian life, as a result of acts of bombs or whatever the case may be. Yes, I think it is important to state one thing. It was not the policy of the African National Congress to deliberately select soft targets and so that it led to the loss of civilian life.  It was not the policy.  However, one cannot ignore the fact that in a vast organisation like the African National Congress, you find sometimes elements who are actually
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undisciplined.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

LALOO CHIBA: So what I can say here, that was very, very unfortunate. I myself am not happy with that and those people, the undisciplined elements have to be dealt with, they need to be dealt with.  But it is not the policy and it was not the policy of the African National Congress.  Sometimes accidents do take place but I want to stress it was certainly not the policy of the African National Congress.  Of course at that stage, people like Comrade Kathrada and myself were in prison, so we can't say you know, we don't know all the facts.  But that's what we came to learn at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  My second question is related to the whole question of the interrogation methods which were used by the security police and we have seen the changes.  You are now in a position of authority in Government.  We as a Commission need to make recommendations on the basis of what we hear.  Could you now in the light of your own experiences give us some guidance in terms of what we should recommend should be laid down for governance of the police, for instance, of the security forces, how they can treat people.  Or put it crudely, didn't you expect to be treated in quite thew ay that you were?  You were fighting the enemy at that stage.  How do you expect the police to function now.

LALOO CHIBA: I think we are living, we are actually in a different set-up now.  We have a democratic South Africa, where human rights, a culture of human rights has to develop and it is being developed.  We respect the rights of each and every individual and things like torture and violations
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of human rights should never occur.  And I really, I can't say what actual mechanisms can be put in place, but certainly as far as the police are concerned and those who are in authority are concerned, it must be made absolutely clear that the new dispensation will not tolerate violations of human rights under any circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  In thanking you for coming today and expressing our appreciation for that, in the way that you have told your story.
 I would like just very briefly to tell a short story about you, which I think puts in context the question of who are the heroes, and just tell that.  When I was actually in Pretoria local prison myself, I was joined by a friend, Fred Phago, who is now unfortunately dead, who told the story about his being in detention. I think it was in Jeppe, die "strafstasie", being in detention for two or three weeks in total isolation.  He felt he was going out of his mind.  He said suddenly this person was thrown into a cell next to him.  He never saw the person, he never actually met them, but he learnt his name, because this person taught him through very thick walls - and I think using a shoe brush - taught him the Morse Code, and through teaching him the Morse Code brought him back to sanity, brought him back into himself. In the process of that he learnt that this person's name was Chiba.  Fred would talk for hours about Chiba. I would just like to remind you of that and thank you for that.  Thanks very much indeed.
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