Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS KOTZE: He is a lot better than he was when I first started treating him but there are still definite elements of depression and stress present.

MR COOK: Is he on medication?

MS KOTZE: Yes he is still using the same anti-depressant which he started using whilst he was in therapy and he's on a high dosage because he didn't react too positively initially.  So yes he's still on medication.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COOK

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Donan.

MR DONAN: Thank you.  I have in front of me a document which is headed DSM4 which seems to be the same as the book which you have in front of you.

MS KOTZE: The one that I have here, yes.

MR DONAN: What is that?

MS KOTZE: This is basically our handbook, it's an international handbook of mental disorders that is used internationally.

MR DONAN: Do you rely on that book to reach the conclusions which you've made today?

MS KOTZE: I did rely heavily on this book but I also relied on my professional experience that I've had in the field, things that are not always mentioned here.

MR DONAN: Let's deal with what is mentioned there and then perhaps you can help us ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: Are you talking about post-traumatic stress disorder?

MR DONAN: Post-traumatic stress disorder 309.8.1, it says here
"The person's response to the event must involve...."
sorry they are dealing with criteria, and the criteria A1, that's the first one,
"The person's response to the event must involve intense fear, helplessness or horror, or in children the response must involve disorganised or agitated behaviour".
	In the chart at the back of the document the diagnostic criteria are spelt out as follows:
"The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of the following were present.  The person experienced, witnessed or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others".

MS KOTZE: Can you just tell me where you found that now?

MR DONAN: That's at 427 to 428.

MS KOTZE: Okay.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry there's a disturbance on the hearing aid system.

MS KOTZE: From my microphone.

ADV DE JAGER: Well I don't know from whose microphone but on my earphones I don't know whether the fault may be with the earphones.  Perhaps you shouldn't ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: It's difficult to talk in the microphone and look at the person as well.  Look forward, okay.  It's difficult for me in my job not to look people in the eye so I find it rather uncomfortable.  Is that fine for you, better?

ADV DE JAGER: No it's still the same.

CHAIRPERSON: You may look at the person that is questioning you.

MS KOTZE: And you will still hear me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS KOTZE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Provided you talk into the mike.

MR DONAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You were referring the witness to certain, are they passages or are they pages?

MS KOTZE: Pages in the book.

MR DONAN: There is a little chart - yes they are passages in fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS KOTZE: You are talking about the diagnostic criteria from page 24, 27 to page 429 in the DSM4?

MR DONAN: That's right.

MS KOTZE: Yes.

MR DONAN: And these are the diagnostic criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder.

MS KOTZE: Yes.  I've read the first one and the second one is
"The person's response involved intense fear, helplessness or horror".

MS KOTZE: Yes.

MR DONAN: The impression that this gives me is that people that suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder are victims, they are not perpetrators who can stop the event at any time.  They are helpless people who are faced with an event beyond their control, do you agree with me?

MS KOTZE: I don't entirely agree with you because I do work with a lot of policemen who suffer from post-traumatic stress because of the execution of their duties.  Now they do it because it's their job to go and get victims off the street or in horrible accidents or work with dead people etc, etc, and yet they suffer post-traumatic stress.

MR DONAN: These are horrible things that they see, these are not horrible things that they do.

MS KOTZE: And also where people are involved in a shoot-out or something like that where the other person might be killed, they didn't kill the person intentionally, but they also suffer from post-traumatic stress.

MR DONAN: They are in events where they are on equal terms with someone else and there is high anxiety and trauma.

MS KOTZE: But I think what you - I hear what you are saying to me that Mr Benzien was not a victim in this case, but yet he did experience fear, helplessness and horror because he was involved, as far as he was concerned, in the execution of his duties.

MR DONAN: It was not - but he was not helpless, he could withdraw at any time and say no, couldn't he?

MS KOTZE: He did feel helpless when he came to see me.

MR DONAN: Yes well we'll get to that because I shall suggest to you that there may be other problems or other causes.  But what I am doing at present is I am questioning the validity of your diagnosis.  It may be, I am putting to you, that his condition is something else, but his condition seems to be the very antithesis of post-traumatic stress disorder because he ...(tape ends)

MS KOTZE: ... claim that he was the perpetrator but I stand with my view that he suffered from post-traumatic stress as a result, although you interpret him as not being a victim.

MR DONAN: What was he a victim of then?

MS KOTZE: He was a victim of circumstances due to his work environment.

MR DONAN: Are you saying that he, was he a victim of his own deeds?

MS KOTZE: He was a victim of his work duties.

MR DONAN: You say that he had a duty to do those things?

MS KOTZE: No that was his job that he was doing, and in the fulfilment of the job duties he was subjected to things that he didn't always like doing and this caused problems for him.

MR DONAN: I think I have the same problems.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry I don't understand, what do you mean, are you saying he was a victim even before he committed the incidents?

MS KOTZE: I think he was a victim of the system in that I don't think that he enjoyed what he was doing.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But your argument would imply that already before he committed these various incidents, by reason of the fact that he was already in the police force, by reason of the fact that he was already serving in the Security Branch, already at that stage he was already a victim?

MS KOTZE: I think he became a victim when he was moved from a position as a very successful policeman where he did an excellent job into a position where he had to do things that he didn't like doing.  I think that is when his inner turmoil started, yes, and this is why I am saying - that's why I say to an extent I also see him as a victim.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So in terms of the relevant portion of his career we would say that he was in the CID and then later moved to the Security Branch, where does his position as a victim commence?  Does it commence in terms of what you are saying, the time he has been placed in the Security Branch?

MS KOTZE: Yes I think so, I think that's when a change happened in his family life and in him himself.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In that case what is the effect of the particular incidents that he committed?

MS KOTZE: Excuse me?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What is the effect of the acts of assault which he subsequently perpetrated, how do they victimise him if he was already a victim at the time when he entered into the Security Branch?

MS KOTZE: It victimised him in the sense that he had to go home every day and live a normal life with his family and he could not tell his family what he had done the whole day, or what he was involved in.  He became secretive, he couldn't talk about things, he became a victim of his job as far as I am concerned.