Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

J A STEYN: When we handled an informer, you wouldn't make that fact known and the other Security and Intelligence Units would probably have the name of such a person on a list without knowing that somebody else in the Security establishment was handling that person.

MS POSWA: So when in fact you are working with Ndaba this side and then the rest of the Security Branch is seeking him.

J A STEYN: Yes.

MS POSWA: That must have caused a lot of double work, mustn't it?

J A STEYN: Yes, but the issue was that you had to protect the man.

MS POSWA: Your colleague said here that you didn't have much resources.  I mean to my mind if you have a group of informers who at the same time being sought after and hunted down by another Security Branch, to me it makes - it sounds as if a lot of resources were available and that you were using and this was being wasted really.

J A STEYN: No, I repeat, if you handled somebody, then other members of the Security establishment wouldn't necessarily know about that so it's possible that his name appeared on a list compiled by some other department of the Security establishment with a view to tracking him down.

MS POSWA: Were you aware of the fact that the Security Branch was, at the same time, also making raids at Mr Ndaba's home?

J A STEYN: No.

MS POSWA: Would such raids have been routine?  Did you know of any such raids existing, not particularly concerning Mr Ndaba but any other person?

J A STEYN: Yes, it was the practice that people who had left the country to be trained, their homes and their families were visited regularly with a view to gathering intelligence and to find out whether they had returned.

MS POSWA: So you cannot deny the fact that such raids could have been, that such visits would have been made at Mr Ndaba's home?

J A STEYN: No I can't deny that.

MS POSWA: Would that not again be inconsistent with the allegations that he is an informer?

J A STEYN: Once again, the people who were doing the normal investigation into dockets of people who had left the country for military training, would not have known about the informers.

MS POSWA: So in the Security Branch you had two parallel systems, one dealing with informers and the one chasing after the same informers?

J A STEYN: No, the person conducting the investigation after the person had left the country would not know that the person that he was investigating was an informer for some or other intelligence service.

MS POSWA: Why not?  Why does the person who is handling the informer not just get him off the list?  I mean, it doesn't make sense.

J A STEYN: Because then you would expose him immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: It would become obvious if his house was never visited, if all the other houses were visited and his wasn't.

J A STEYN: That's correct.

MS POSWA: When Ndaba was arrested, was he booked, meaning was his name properly registered in the book at C R Swart?

J A STEYN: Not as far as I know.  Are we talking about Ndaba?

MS POSWA: Yes.

J A STEYN: Ndaba was arrested by people who took him to C R Swart where, according to the evidence, Botha and Taylor and others had found him.  Whether there were certain book entries made in an official journal, I'm not certain of.  I did hear that some of the people who had performed the arrest had been assisted by members of the Uniform Branch who had made certain inscriptions in pocket books, if I remember correctly.

MS POSWA: So you're saying that inscriptions are made in pocket books and not at the C R Swart Charge Office?

J A STEYN: I can't say, but it may be.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I may interpose?  General, before lunch you clearly told us that as far as you knew entries were made at C R Swart in the occurrence books.  The Chairperson asked you about that and you answered in the affirmative.

J A STEYN: Chair, then I answered incorrectly and then I want to rectify that by saying that I seem to recall that the people who had assisted with the arrest, in other words as far as the transport to C R Swart was concerned, I'd heard that these people had made entries in the pocket books, that they had conveyed, picked up such a person and conveyed him to C R Swart.

MR LAX: You spoke of occurrence books which are different to pocket books.

J A STEYN: That's correct, but I beg your pardon, I can't say that there was no entry made.

MS POSWA: If I remember correctly, it was alleged that the problem with releasing Ndaba was that he had been in fact divulging the fact that he had been arrested, was the fact that this had been done unlawfully.  Can you correct me, please?

J A STEYN: Could you please repeat the question?

MS POSWA: It has earlier been alleged, I don't know whether it was by you or Mr Botha, that Ndaba had been arrested unlawfully and therefore you were not able to divulge this information in Pretoria when you went on your visits there, but in the light of the fact that something could have been done in the occurrence book, would it not have been proper to check whether in fact this had not been registered in the occurrence book?

J A STEYN: Anybody could check those books, the occurrence book, to see whether there was such an entry or not, if that is the question.

MS POSWA: Yes, subsequent to that, you had earlier said that the problem you had with legalising Ndaba's arrest was the fact that, in fact informing Pretoria about his arrest was that it had been done unlawfully and you feared that action could be taken against you for that.

J A STEYN: No.  Ndaba was arrested by people who were unaware of the fact that he was an informer.  Shabalala was arrested unlawfully and we didn't discuss the matter with Headquarters.

MS POSWA: So the reason for not discussing Shabalala's arrest was that it had been unlawful?

J A STEYN: Yes, it was unlawful.

MS POSWA: What was the reason for not discussing Ndaba's arrest?

J A STEYN: We told Head Office that we were acting on information.

MS POSWA: I'm sorry, I don't understand.

J A STEYN: We told Head Office that there was information which we had and we didn't actually give them the real facts.

MS POSWA: There's another aspect of this, of your evidence, which I find quite disturbing.  I do not understand how Ndaba, a trained cadre, knowing full well the brutality of the Security Branch, would actually tell you, or he obviously told Mr Botha that he wanted to hand himself over to the ANC.  I would - what sounds more plausible is the fact that he would just let you take him back into the mainstream, you know, and then when he gets to the ANC, hand himself over and not to tell, give you this information.  Was that not odd?

J A STEYN: You've now given quite a long question.  Can you repeat it please?

MR LAX: General, what you're being asked is, I could put it crisply in this way, why would Ndaba tell your people that he's going to take his chances  with the ANC when that would immediately alert you to the risk that he now poses.  Why wouldn't he just keep quiet about that and then at the appropriate time, once you've reinstalled him back in normal society, for want of a better phrase, then go and take his chances?

J A STEYN: What Botha told me and I'm speculating is that Ndaba was worried about his "arrest", in inverted commas, that more people would know about it and that that would jeopardise his position.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood that he said that he was going to turn himself over to the ANC  after he'd been told there were going to be no prosecutions, not that it had anything to do with his arrest.

J A STEYN: If I remember correctly, his concern was the fact that he'd been seen with Shabalala on certain occasions and if he was to walk free later, not knowing what was to happen to Shabalala, then as you've just said, then he could have explained his position to the ANC but I've already pointed out earlier, he could also convey further information which he gathered and he could convey it to the ANC.