Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR VISSER: May I just see if I can lay my hands on the statistics directly for your information?  Yes, it is a previous Exhibit D Chairperson, at page 8 which is the evidence of Mr Botha in the Ndaba and Shabalala matter and the statistics are 1990, 26th.  These are armed attacks, not bomb attacks, armed attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I will have a look at those perhaps during the tea adjournment.

MR VISSER: Yes, there are only four of them, Chairperson.  As it pleases you.
	Very well, please proceed with paragraph 11?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, as such I believed bona fide that what I did fell within my express or implied authorisation.

MR VISSER: And you request amnesty then for the assault on Mr Gordhan, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Would you just proceed and just tell us immediately what you did afterwards?  That was where Mr Lalla  came into the picture.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Directly after I had ceased the interrogation of Mr Gordhan, I asked Marius Greyling because he had been deployed with Warrant Officer Basson, I asked him to work with Mr Lalla.

MR VISSER: Would you please begin at paragraph 1?  This is Exhibit E.  Page 2 of Exhibit E paragraph 1.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: On the same date and immediately thereafter, after I had worked with Mr Gordhan, I also spoke to Mr Lalla.  The reason why I interrogated him was in order to obtain information regarding the names and activities of certain persons who had been recruited internally by Operation Vula.  This group of persons consisted out of Whites as well as Black persons.  It was vital to the security branch in order to address Operation Vula completely to know who these persons were, who had been recruited as such, where they resided or where they were hiding and what their activities were and Chairperson, some of these names were not just the usual run of the mill names, these were the names of some very prominent figures who were children of politicians therefore it was necessary to know what their activities were.  I spoke to Mr Lalla and initially he provided information up to a certain point where I noticed that he was holding back.

MR VISSER: Can you recall precisely what that information was that he did provide to you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If I had to make a comparison between Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, the difference was that Mr Lalla offered his cooperation from the moment of his arrest, not necessarily with regard to all the questions that one would put to him, he did not necessarily answer all of them or answer all of them honestly but in eighty percent of all cases he cooperated.

MR VISSER: Now on this day in Bethlehem, according to you, he began to provide information to you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I specifically questioned him regarding the names which were obtained from the documents and it was about where these persons had been recruited, upon which occasions and whether or not he had already established contact with these persons.  If I recall correctly, an amount of R1000 per person was allocated and he had to hand over this money to them and it was also when he was discussing these names that he began to withhold regarding a specific aspect.  I don't recall what that aspect was.

MR VISSER: Very well, continue.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I decided to use the same method that I had used with Mr Gordhan.  In this case I was assisted by Mr Greyling.

MR VISSER: Not Duhr and Bothma as you have stated it here in your statement?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No I was assisted by Greyling and I cannot recall whether his hands were bound or not.  He was wrapped in a blanket and I made use of the suffocation technique.  Suddenly he began gasping for his breath and it appeared that he had had an asthma attack and it was unknown to me that he was an asthma sufferer.  I called for an asthma pump and it then appeared that Lalla's asthma's pump had run empty that morning.  I sent Greyling to the pharmacy which was situated in the same building as the security branch's offices and he went to fetch an asthma pump.  I think Mr Lalla will give evidence that the asthma pump which was prescribed for him was for example a green pump but the one that the pharmacy gave was a blue asthma pump.  Nonetheless, he could use this asthma pump safely.  After we had given him the asthma pump he used it and recovered from his asthma attack.  After that I did not interrogate him further.

MR VISSER: And your political motivation was the same in Mr Lalla's case as what it was in Mr Gordhan's case, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And with regard to the order from a superior officer it was also the same with Mr Lalla as what it had been with Mr Gordhan according to your evidence that you have already given?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you then request amnesty with regard to Mr Lalla for assault.  Perhaps you should just state, the Chairperson asked you whether or not you noticed any physical effects of the assault on Mr Gordhan and you gave evidence that there was a noticeable physical effect of the effect on Mr Lalla, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Where there any other physical effects which you could notice on Mr Lalla as a result of the assault?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: With the exception of the asthma attack there was nothing else.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Nel do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, I've just got one question for Mr Botha.
	Mr Botha, if you can confirm, Mr Duhr will testify that during the interrogation of Mr Gordhan he was indeed present but he was tasked with taking notes of any answers or questions which were put or answers which were received and he will say that he was also not physically involved in the suffocation of the person but the other persons were Mr Bothma, Mr Greyling and yourself.  Can you confirm that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That would be true, Chairperson, one person is usually tasked with taking notes.

MR NEL: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel.  Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to put to the applicant?

MR GORDHAN: Yes Chairperson.
	We were taken to Bethlehem because there was a shortage of space in Durban.  I put it to you that this is a lie, that in my experience and Mr Chairperson, I've been in detention for many, many times from the period 1981 to 1990 and in that time for example at C.R. Swart Police Station alone, in 1981 there were some 25 Section 29 detainees at the same time in the police cells and I put it to you Mr Botha the real reason is that you didn't want any communication to take place in the event of any assault, perhaps even murder, between any detainee and family or other members and I put it to you also that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think let's ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: Alright, let's hear your answer now?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think otherwise it gets a bit cumbersome.  What do you say to that, Mr Botha?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I will answer as follows, that in 1991 or 1981 before I came to Durban so I cannot be able to testify as to how many people were detained in those cells but if one looks at when the Act was drawn up there were certain prescriptions which had to be satisfied except for the reference of the place of detention, there were also visits from district surgeons and magistrates so I cannot accord with what Mr Gordhan says with regard to the reason for his detention in Bethlehem.