Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It so happened that Bra Mos had already started shooting. We also went out and he had continued running. Clearly he had heard that a shot had been fired but he did not stop running and so we had to also go on shooting running after him all the while.

MR DUKADA: No what I am asking even if I know you are not Bra Mos, you are not the first one to fire a shot do you agree with me that in the circumstances it was appropriate to first give the deceased a warning shot? I am talking to a trained policeman now.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I agree with you there.

MR DUKADA: And that was not done?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That the first shot I do not know whether it was a warning shot or it was targeted to the deceased. He was the one who shot first time. I don't know what he did. But he went on running. He was not stopping to run until he got killed by the following shots when we also took part in the shooting.

MR DUKADA: And Mr Shabalala the shooting was taking place at a very short range according to Dandala. Do you agree with that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I do not agree with him.

MR DUKADA: And at what distance would you estimate when the first shot was fired by Bra Mos?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can say the distance could be 10 metres from Bra Mos - no not 10. 10 to 15 metres from Mos that is the distance he was away. But when he started shooting I would not know what the distance was. But when we alighted from the car Bra Mos was continuing shooting and that person was about 15 metres away.

MR DUKADA: And the deceased as you knew him that day he was a very heavy, a fat man. He was far from being an athlete. Do you agree with me?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: But as far as I could see he was running very fast and he was out-running us.

MR DUKADA: Lastly, Mr Shabalala don't you find it strange that your companion Dandala comes here without a grudge against you, gives evidence to say that you fired at the deceased when he was already lying on the ground until the magazine was empty. Thereafter you removed the empty magazine, re-loaded and continued firing whilst the deceased was laying on the ground. Don't you find that very, very strange for you companion to say that here?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: With that part of the story that did not happen. That did not happen. I dispute that.

MR DUKADA: And you have no reason to suggest why he is falsely implicating you here?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I can only say that is not true. There are turns on our part to take the deceased whilst he was still alive to try and get assistance and get information from he. We did not try and kill him because we knew that he was already defeated. We just wanted to get information as long as he was alive.

MR DUKADA: That doesn't answer my question. The question is that you have no reason to suggest to this Committee why would Dandala falsely implicate you or why would Dandala say that you continued firing?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: There I would not know perhaps that is how he saw that he would save himself by saying that perhaps he shot only once. I don't know whether he was trying to save his own skin. I cannot explain.

MR DUKADA: And Mr Shabalala I will suggest in the stage of argument to this Committee that you were a member of a hit squad. You were assigned to go and kill the deceased and nothing else. What do you say to that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I will say I was a member of the security police. That I was a hit squad sent to do that, that is not what was told to me. I did not know that I was a hit squad. No that is not so.

MR DUKADA: Now Mr Shabalala if the intention, there was never any discussion to kill the deceased and you never intended to kill him at all why would there be celebrations a braai and then drinking, congratulations?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The celebratory braais were done by the superiors not myself.

MR DUKADA: Would you have had a braai and drinking if you had not killed the deceased?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman thank you. That is all what I wanted to ask the witness.

MR DUKADA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well. Mr Mapoma you do have questions do you?

MR MAPOMA: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels and Mr Matuweni you do have questions?

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman I have no questions.

MR MATUWENI: I will have no questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You would like to re-examine the witness?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman I would. What time would we intend.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you have any?

MR KNIGHT: Yes I do. A substantial re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that it is very unlikely that if we have to continue beyond this point we will finish the evidence of Mr Shabalala and unfortunately there are those who still have to travel a distance from here, who have to be away now so unfortunately we would have to bring these proceedings to a close at this stage. And we will continue with these applications. The date has been arranged as the 24th of August to.

MR MAPOMA: I am sorry Sir I am not sure - 28th yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well these proceedings will then be adjourned to Monday the 24th of August and will continue from that day up to and including Friday the 28th of August. On the 24th of August we will commence at what time?

MR MAPOMA: Nine thirty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes on the 24th of August we will commence at nine thirty. We have to apologise to those who had come to these proceedings. Unfortunately there is no way we can finish these proceedings now and therefore we have to adjourn. Before rising let me express our appreciation to the legal representatives of the parties for the manner in which they have conducted the proceedings so far and also everyone who has made a contribution towards ensuring that this venue is secured and that these proceedings commence and take place smoothly and also to the members of the audience for their behaviour I think suffices to say that we are deeply indebted to everyone from the interpreters to the logistic officers, to the security officers, to the media, to everyone virtually everyone without exception who has made a contribution towards ensuring that these proceedings take place. And may I wish to express my appreciation to my members of the Committee for their patience. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .