Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR KUNY: The question is why did you decide at that stage that you would have no further contact with the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think the answer has just been provided.  It is possible, it is when those allegations were made, that they were being held by me, who was head of the family, that they were being held ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: At that stage ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... against their will.

MR KUNY: At that stage you were not aware of any assault being committed on these boys.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not sure whether the Crisis Committee or the community leaders stated those first that day, at that stage.

MR KUNY: Well, you said, you said in your evidence at the trial that the, when the Crisis Committee came they alleged that assaults were serious.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible.

MR KUNY: And there was an allegation of the abduction of the boys.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is why I am saying I am not sure at what stage I became aware.

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not sure of the exact discussions, exactly which dates, those discussions took place.

MR KUNY: Would it not have been the simplest thing to say to the Crisis Committee I am not aware of such assaults, let us go and see the boys, in my presence you can confirm for yourself whether there has been an abduction or, and an assault.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not remember the exact facts, but as you yourself have stated, I said they must go and see the boys in my absence.

MR KUNY: Now, Ms Mandela, you said after that that you had spoken, you had then asked Richardson what had happened.  Do you recall that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is possible.

MR KUNY: And he had said that there was clapping or slapping when these children first came.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible.

MR KUNY: Now, I just very briefly want to deal with your evidence in this regard that you gave at the trial.  Did you ask Jerry Richardson how, what the circumstances were in which there had been an assault of these youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not recollect those details.  If I had had the opportunity of refreshing my mind through that court record, I would have been able to answer you outright.

MR KUNY: You see, Mrs Mandela, you were asked at the trial,
         "Did you ask Richardson what he knew about the circumstances of the youngsters being taken away from the manse?".
I do not know if you recall that.  You were asked by your counsel, Advocate Bizos.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it is possible, counsel put those questions across, as I say I have not, I did not have an opportunity of refreshing my mind ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Ja.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... with the court proceedings of the day.  I would not remember exact ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... details and paragraphs of what happened.

MR KUNY: I am putting to you what was asked.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And your answer was,
"I did not discuss that with him, because Xoliswa had told me that she asked him to look after the children."
That was your answer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible, yes.

MR KUNY: Now, why did you not discuss with Mr Richardson these allegations that these boys had been abducted.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I may have disbelieved at that stage.

MR KUNY: But Mr Richardson has now actually admitted having perpetrated an assault on these young boys.  Surely, the most obvious thing for you to have done would have been to have asked the circumstances of the removal of these boys.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Is there evidence that that day he had admitted to that, according to that court record you have in front of you?

MR KUNY: Yes.  There is evidence that you went ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That day?

MR KUNY: ... to Mr Richardson.  Let us not quarrel about days or times.  Let us just look at the facts as they stand on the record.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not quarrelling with you, Sir.  I am merely trying to clear ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, I am ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... what you are asking me.

MR KUNY: Well, you had been presented with allegations of an assault.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And a kidnapping.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.  Which I disbelieved at that stage.

MR KUNY: Well, but that allegation had subsequently been confirmed by Mr Richardson, that ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: ... there had been an assault.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, when he was on trial, he confirmed.

MR KUNY: But you did not discuss with him the circumstances in which those boys had been taken from the manse?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not think there was need at that stage, because there was no suggestion to me, besides the fact that I disbelieved ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Now, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... that they had been forcibly removed.

MR KUNY: I will not deal with that any further.  Now, you were then asked,
"Did you have any reason to believe that any force had been used to take the children away from the manse?".
That was a question put to you by your counsel.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Which is why I responded in that manner that I did not believe at ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Indeed so.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... that stage.

MR KUNY: You actually said that you did not have any reason.  Now, can you tell the Commission why you held that belief?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Because I had been assured by Falati that the children or rather these youths, had been picked up from the manse and that they had come with her willingly.

MR KUNY: Now, you were then asked about whether you believed the allegations made in regard to the other young boys, were true or false and you said,
"I had no reason to believe that the allegations were not false in relation to the others."
Do you recall saying that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not clear of your question.

MR KUNY: You were asked at your trial whether you had any reason to believe whether the allegations directed, not to you, but to the other boys at your house, were true or false and you ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I may have said something like that ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I say, I mean, I, Mr Kuny, I really have tried to be generous.  I am going to give you two more minutes.  I really have to, because we have, you have got all these other people.

MR KUNY: Now, you said if you did not know the allegations, if you believed that they might have been true in the allegations against the other boys at the manse, why did you not take further steps to find out what had happened to these young boys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There were no similar allegations such as those which were brought to my attention over Cebekhulu.

MR KUNY: You did not take steps to find out exactly what had happened to these young boys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: But I, you have just stated, Sir, that I enquired from Richardson ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: No.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... what had happened.

MR KUNY: And Richardson ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And I had no reason to disbelieve Richardson, because he was more senior.

MR KUNY: No, but Richardson had said there was an assault.  Surely this is an indication ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He had said ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: ... that there may have been truth in the allegations, Mrs Mandela.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He had said that they were clapping and ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well ...