Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR HATTINGH: From this answer can we then take it that Mr Chris Hani was aware of the fact that armed robberies were being committed in the furtherance of the aims and objectives of the ANC?

J A MKHWANAZI: There were no rules and regulations guiding this situation.  If we were facing a war situation we had to make use of whatever means at our disposal.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think Chris Hani knew that robberies were being committed in order to fund the SDU's?

J A MKHWANAZI: I cannot assure you on that because I did not specifically tell him that we were engaged in robberies to arm the SDU's.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hattingh, if I can just clarify this?  	Did you foresee the possibility of robberies at the time when you gave the instruction Mr Mkhwanazi?

J A MKHWANAZI: Would you please repeat the question?

ADV BOSMAN: At the time when you gave Mr Gushu this wide mandate to do what he thought was necessary in his discretion with regard to the SDU's, did you foresee the possibility that he may carry out armed robberies?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I did.  I did think about the possibility because we didn't have firearms.  We didn't have money and therefore there was not any other alternative.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to Jwi Zwane, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not say you are finished?

MR HATTINGH: No, Mr Chairman, I said thank you for, I finally got the answer to my question which I've been trying to get the past 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it must be my mistake.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mkhwanazi, with regard to Jwi Zwane, his family or his brother will say that Jwi Zwane did not play the role that the applicants including you would like to picture of him in the conflict which occurred at the time in this area.

J A MKHWANAZI: If you say that, I think he must have had his eyes closed not see what was happening.  Nobody in this Ermelo community doesn't know that Zwane was leading the Black Cats.  I'm shocked that there is someone who doesn't know that.

MR HATTINGH: I would further wish to put it to you with regard to Jwi Zwane, that he was working with his brother, Elias Zwane in the business and that they were in fact in competition with Mr John Mndebele and that may have been the reason for the assassination of Jwi Zwane.

J A MKHWANAZI: I think Mr Mndebele did indicate how far his business was in relation to Jwi Zwane's brother's business.  John Mndebele has about six or seven shops.  These are the people perhaps who may say something but finally Jwi Zwane was involved in violence.  We would not go out and shoot an innocent person.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to Chris Ngwenya evidence will be led that there was apparently a problem between Chris Ngwenya and John Mndebele and John Mndebele in fact a day before Chris Ngwenya was killed filed a complaint with the police pertaining to Chris Ngwenya, were you aware of that?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think you'll be correct to direct that question to Mr Mndebele.  I have no answer to it.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, but did you know of that report to the police before the death?

J A MKHWANAZI: No.

MR HATTINGH: I merely wish to put it to you that it would appear that there was in fact a personal vendetta between Mr Chris Ngwenya and Mr John Mndebele and that the killing of Chris Ngwenya was not politically motivated.

J A MKHWANAZI: John Mndebele was not the one taking decisions about the assassination of people.  I don't think he would have had that influence to mislead us so that he could protect his business interests.  We could not be misled into that.
	Other members within the Special Committee here at Ermelo knew Chris, they knew he was behind the violence and there was therefore no way in which John Mndebele could have influenced that decision.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to Lindiwe Nkosi and Thembisile Eldah Nkambule, I would like to put it to you just for your comments if you have any, that they were shot during the same incident in which Chris Ngwenya was shot but that they were shot after Chris Ngwenya had already been shot and that they were in fact not shot by accident but that they were in fact followed and shot after Chris Ngwenya had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he be able to say whether that is true or not?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, it's merely a fact that he made application for amnesty for their death and the shooting at Thembisile Nkambule and I'm merely making the statement for if he wants to respond to that.  That is the only reason.

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't there so, I don't know, whatever answer you're going to get is probably hearsay but anyway.
	Can you answer the last question?

J A MKHWANAZI: I'm not in the position to answer that because I was not present.

MR HATTINGH: Lastly Mr Mkhwanazi, if in fact Mr Gushu committed these murders on your instructions with political motives and in the furtherance of the aims of the ANC, could you perhaps explain why no-one from the ANC, including yourself who gave him those instructions, came to his assistance at his criminal trial?

CHAIRPERSON: How would they give him assistance?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I suppose it's up to this witness to say, to give us that answer, to say what assistance was possible if any.

CHAIRPERSON: What assistance are you talking about?

MR HATTINGH: Any assistance in support of someone who is now facing a grave jail sentence where he acted on your instructions in the furtherance of the aims of a political organisation who was by the time when this person went through his trial the government of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of assistance, evidence, financial, whatever?

MR HATTINGH: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you talking about?

MR HATTINGH: Financial, evidence, support.

CHAIRPERSON: How relevant is it, whether he was supported financially or not?  The fact that if he had to be supported financially he'd still go to jail, he was found guilty.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would submit that it is relevant as far as that it would show that that was in fact the position at the time and that we are dealing with today is not a fabrication of the event, that in fact there were instructions and in fact there was support and reasons for Gushu to act the way he did and that he was in fact acting on behalf of the ANC and per the instructions of this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhwanazi, you knew that Mr Gushu was on trial not so?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The advocate is putting to you that you did not support him in any way when he was on trial, he wants to know why.

J A MKHWANAZI: I don't know what kind of support he is talking about.  Is he talking about financial support?  Mzwandile had a lawyer and really I don't know what kind of support he is talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: I also asked the question and he says financial and just moral support perhaps.  Did you attend the trial?  I don't really know what the purpose of the question is but I'm asking it also to get finished with this.

J A MKHWANAZI: I didn't go to the trial because I was avoiding being arrested.  I didn't know what he had said.  Insofar as money is concerned the Ermelo Committee tried to raise funds for his legal assistance.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir, just one point.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, in your evidence in chief you said you were only advised by Mr Gushu about the assassination of the late Advice Gwala after he had already carried out the operation, do you remember  that?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I do.

MR MAPOMA: And you said you did approve or what he did, do you remember that?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You went on to say that in any event complaints were made to you by Mr JJ Mabena about the actions of Mr Advice Gwala, do you remember that?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I do remember that.