Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR DUBE: If I memory serves me well, I trained them at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: So there were just the two them who received training from you on a daily basis?

MR DUBE: You see, Clive and Sipho were already senior to them in as far as training was concerned, and they joined the cell subsequently.  First there was Wiseman, Precious and Sicelo.  Then I collaborated this whole thing, because my intention was to get Clive to be able to train others as well.

ADV SANDI: Did Clive take part in the training of Sicelo?

MR DUBE: No, he did not take part in training.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  To revert back to the cell structure in Emdeni.  Were there other cells operating which weren't under your command in Emdeni at the time?

MR DUBE: I would think so.

MR RICHARD: Would you know about them?

MR DUBE: No.

MR RICHARD: So if I mentioned names like Reggie, Reginald, Andries, Timothy, Coulat, would you remember those people?

MR DUBE: Please repeat those names again.

MR RICHARD: Reggie, that was his nickname at the time.

MR DUBE: You mean Reggie?

MR RICHARD: Yes, do you remember the name?

MR DUBE: No, I don't, not at all.

MR RICHARD: Sandile Edgar Bikani.

MR DUBE: I don't know him.

MR RICHARD: And Promise Khosa?

MR DUBE: I do not know him.

MR RICHARD: So that means there were other cells in the area that you didn't know about?  I'm reading from a security force document that was handed in at another hearing.  I'll leave that point.  Now, what we do know is, as by October 1987, you were familiar with the cell and the cell was operating properly and you were getting regular reports from its commander.  Is that correct?

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you recall any incident relating to the deceased that month?

MR DUBE: Like what for instance if I may ask?

MR RICHARD: Was he, did anything happen to him that month?

MR DUBE: What happened to him in October was the fact that he was arrested as I explained earlier on in my evidence.  October 1987.

MR RICHARD: And when else was he arrested?

MR DUBE: October 1987.  He was arrested in 1987, October.

MR RICHARD: I know that.  Now was he ever arrested on any other occasion post October 1987, or detained, or made contact with the police?

MR DUBE: Except the October one that I referred to there's nothing else that I know.

CHAIRPERSON: What was ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he arrested for in October?

MR DUBE: What I know is he was arrested at DPSC office, where they found Makarov pistol and F1 and grenade in his possession.

INTERPRETER: Please activate your microphone.

MR RICHARD: Who supplied you with that information?

MR DUBE: Prior to his arrest he was with me, and I gave him these things, and that's was suddenly in media that he was arrested, so that featured prominently in the media that we he was arrested.

MR RICHARD: Now when did that, now was there anything else about that arrest that was particular?  Was he injured in it?  Was he treated well by the police?

MR DUBE: What I know is that he was released after a few hours.  I can't tell specifically as to how many hours, two or three that I cannot tell.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this also feature prominently in the media at that time?

MR DUBE: You mean his arrest?

CHAIRPERSON: And his release?

MR DUBE: That he was arrested with arms was not disclosed, in the media that is, but as to his arrest that he was arrested and subsequently released after a few hours, that featured.

CHAIRPERSON: So, but counsel asked you how you knew about his arrest, and you said it featured prominently in the media.  You say there was no mention in the media of arms.

MR DUBE: Maybe I have omitted something that I should have explained.  Clive, looked for me after he discovered that Sicelo had been arrested there at DPSC.  And it was after I realised also from the news I went to him with regard to this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you go to?

MR DUBE: To Clive.  Because he communicated with me in this regard that there is an emergency, he needs to see me, and I went to him.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was in October 1987 you say, it was prominent in the media.  By that you mean the local newspapers do you?

MR DUBE: Yes, I'm trying to say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I think we should arrange to have enquiries made as to what appeared in the media in that month.

MR RICHARD: Nothing at all appeared in October 1987 to do with the deceased.  Your memory is not that good relating to events eleven years ago.  Now, could this have been in January 1988, the newsprint stories that you're referring to?

MR DUBE: Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: The newspaper articles that you're referring to, could they have appears in the press later, in January 1988?

MR DUBE: Possibly, yes.

MR RICHARD: So that means you weren't referring to the October arrest, you were referring to an arrest in January?

MR DUBE: I will explain once again that as Clive was a commander gave me a call I left my area and went to his as he had earlier indicated that this was an emergency, and he discussed, or rather he told me about this that the rumours had it or there's something to the effect that Sicelo has been arrested and I, he deemed it fit that I should know about it as he was an person to Sicelo.

MR RICHARD: Captain, there were a couple of precise things you said.  This arrest, as far as your concerned, certainly took place at the offices of the DPSC.  Correct?  Yes or no.

MR DUBE: According to my knowledge yes.

MR RICHARD: The next thing you say is it was in the press and that you read about it.  Is that correct?

MR DUBE: Yes, I did say that.

MR RICHARD: And the next point that we're at is that you're uncertain of times relating to the period.  We know that we, it's a long time ago.

MR DUBE: That's exactly what I said earlier on that some of the incidents I don't quite remember as they happened, how they happened.

MR RICHARD: So what I'm saying is, am I incorrect that the incident that you're referring to, and the press reports that you referred to, took place in January 1988 and not October 1987.

MR DUBE: It's maybe possible that I've confused the issues here.

MR RICHARD: Because I put it to you that he was not arrested at the DPSC in October 87 at all, at any stage.  Can you contradict me on that one?

MR DUBE: Yes I would contradict you on that point.

MR RICHARD: I would say it happened in January 88.

MR DUBE: I am maintaining the fact that Sicelo was arrested with Makarov pistol, that he got from me, and F1 hand grenade in October, 87 that is.

MR RICHARD: Because then you've changed your evidence.  You say that it was definitely at the DPSC's offices in October 87.

MR DUBE: That's what I said, DPSC in 1987 he was arrested with Makarov pistol and hand grenade. ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Please activate your microphone Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: At the DPSC offices?

MR DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I put it to you that there was no arrest at the DPSC's offices during October 1987 at all, and I can prove that by calling members of the DPSC.

MR DUBE: I would like to emphasise once again that Sicelo, what I don't know was whether he was arrested inside or outside, but I know he was arrested in the offices of DPSC.

CHAIRPERSON: You said he was arrested at the offices of the DPSC.

MR DUBE: That's what I said.

MR RICHARD: I put it again as a matter of fact and record that there were no newspaper items in October 1987 dealing with the arrest of Sicelo Dhlomo.  None at all.  And therefore you could not have read that in October 1987.

MR DUBE: What I said was it may have happened that I'm confusing issues that transpired at the time.

MR RICHARD: And I then carry on to say that he was detained at the offices of the DPSC in January, and I'll give you the exact date, the 20th of January 1988.  Isn't that the incident that you're referring to.