Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

ADV MOTATA: Just to interpose here Mr Steenkamp, let's look at the main submission, page 7, you make reference Sub Units, do you have that?  We look at the different print, do you see the different print and it says blowing of a Police van in Duduza with a limpet mine.  Were people injured, or the Police who were driving that van, injured?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: The report I could indicate before the panel is that the Police were there you know, playing soccer and that is how they got attacked at that soccer field.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you applying for amnesty in regard of that incident?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I have indicated already that in so far as I was part of distributing ammunition and I was part of the issuing out of orders to the Units to carry out those attacks.  I did not personally execute that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know if those operations were successful?  You don't know if attempts to carry it out, were made, is that not so?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I would not for sure say that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I thought you had enumerated the incidents in respect of which amnesty was being sought, and that is not one of the incidents you have enumerated?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I am not applying for that incident, I am not applying for amnesty.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am confused Mr Kebotlhale.  We want you to respond to incidents in which you are applying for amnesty.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I did not include the Basil February operations, I am not applying for amnesty for those operations.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, now I have understood you to be saying that Mr Sigasa has already referred in detail to the February operations, which you have alluded to have included the attack on Councillors, and as I read the submission, because I thought probably I had left something or something had escaped my memory, when I read his reference to the February sub-Unit, there is no reference, there is no evidence that I can deduce about the attack on Councillors, and that appears on page 7, that is where the February Unit is being referred to.

MR KOOPEDI: If you will allow me Mr Chairman and Honourable Committee Member, may I try to explain something which perhaps would clarify the problem we have now.
	If we look at page 4 I believe, yes page 4 of the bundle of documents that has been supplied to us, we have an (indistinct) which tries to tell or to show how this Unit was.  The incidents that are enumerated on page 7, would have been incidents which were planned and carried out by the people who appear there on the block written Johannes Nkosi Unit.
	However, these people were also a command structure which had sub-Units.  I believe what the applicant is saying now is that he would wish to apply for amnesty, that is above the things enumerated on page 7 of Exhibit A, he would wish to apply for amnesty for other acts which may have been carried out by the sub-Units.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you using the word may have been, deliberately Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: With respect I am, and let me explain why.  It has been stated on that page 7, that it has not been possible to make contact with those Units for verification and confirmation purposes.  As matters stand, applicant here was in a command structure, which below it, were sub-Units.
	He does not know whether those Units still exist today.  However, he thinks that because at that time it was not within the law to have arms or to supply arms to other people, he is therefore mentioning those.  He was not personally involved in the execution of those, and that is why it becomes difficult for him to explain what happened and when did that happen if these were actions carried out by the Unit.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, I understand that.  I really need clarification.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, are you acquainted or are you aware of the judgement in the case that is commonly known as the ANC application?

MR KOOPEDI: I am, in fact I handled that matter, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't this particular instance a matter similar to that?

MR KOOPEDI: I would argue not, it is not.  What we are saying here is, well, let me first start by saying that those applications, the ANC applications we are referring to, are called Declaration Applicants.  These are applicants who attached some declaration to their applications, but this is not the case in this instance.
	Here we have an applicant who states where he belongs, who states fully what he did, but who also feels that it is his duty for the purposes of this hearing, for the purposes of reconciliation, to state that there were sub-Units which I have assisted, which I have armed.  However, I am unable to say what they did and I believe it will then be on this Honourable Committee to decide that, no, we are not entertaining what your sub-Units did simply because of the rationale that you cannot give amnesty to a person for something he didn't know it occurred, but he feels it is his duty to inform this Honourable Committee and in fact everybody here, that he armed those people and they were his sub-Unit.  As to what they did, he may not have the facts.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But is he not saying what the sub-Units did?  He is saying they attacked Councillors, that is what he is saying?

MR KOOPEDI: It is indeed so Madam Commissioner, that he is saying that they attacked Councillors, however, he does not know when, that is the date, he does not know which Councillor, and had it been possible for him to confirm these, he would be saying with certainty, but because he doesn't know who was attacked, he only knows that Councillors were attacked.  That is why he is saying so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How does he know that Councillors were attacked as a result of the weapons that he supplied to the sub-Units?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: By virtue of grenades having been used in some instances in areas where I distributed some.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you the Commander of the sub-Units that you supplied ammunition to?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I was the Commander in so far as I belonged to the command structure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And were you not therefore kept abreast with the execution of the operations that you yourself have stated that you gave instructions to?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I was kept abreast, but the information was not complete in most of the instances.  We did not get finer details, given the circumstances under which we operated there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At page 6 of the bundle of documents, that is your formal application, you say that you issued out instructions and carried out attacks.  The you enumerate the incidents, then you say on Wimpy outlets, SAP personnel, Councillors and whites only bus terminus.  Did you issue out instructions on the attack of Councillors?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Let me explain this.  Given all the Units that we commanded, we visited them at all times, regularly if we had time and we would actually give out instructions to carry out attacks against the Councillors in pursuit of the objective of rendering the 1988 October Municipal elections a farce.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you personally issue out instructions to your sub-Units on Councillors?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I did.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And were any reports given to you subsequently those instructions having been issued by you, were any reports given to you on the execution of those operations?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No reports were given, but I know that in areas where I have distributed grenades, Councillors were attacked.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you not find out from your sub-Units how the execution had been carried out, on whom of the Councillors the attack had been ...

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I had not been able to do so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why not?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: It was very difficult, we were operating under very difficult conditions at that time.