Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR VISSER: Yes.  That is the recollection of Mr Wasserman as well.  Now just to deal with another incident, on the way there or on the way back there was a flat of the kombi, I think you referred to it, do you remember that?

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Now as far as your recollection goes, was it on the way to the cliff where Mr Bhila was assassinated or was it after the time, that you had the flat?

FRANK MCCARTER: It was on the way to the scene.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now in Mr Rosslee's application at page 25, he talks about having shot Mr Bhila plus minus seven times in the head - page 25, the second paragraph, Mr Chairman, the last sentence.  Your evidence in your application form, as well as your evidence here today indicated that Rosslee fired    once.

FRANK MCCARTER: That's as far as I can recollect, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Now I don't want to burden you with that part of the evidence of what Rosslee is going to testify to but I want to ask you is this, do you have any recollection on that evening whether something went wrong with the firearm that Mr Rosslee was using?  Do you have any recollection of that at all?

FRANK MCCARTER: I vaguely remember a stoppage with the firearm but not in detail, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: When you speak about a stopping, do you talk about a stoppage in the automatic mechanism of the pistol?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now the firearms, can we just talk a little bit about the firearms.  What type of firearms were they?  Well first of all, was there only one firearm used by you and Rosslee or were there two used?

FRANK MCCARTER: There were two firearms, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What were they?

FRANK MCCARTER: As far as I can recollect they were 6.35mm or .25s.

MR VISSER: Yes, Baby Browning?

FRANK MCCARTER: Similar weapons.

MR VISSER: Similar, alright.  And where did they come from, do you know?

FRANK MCCARTER: From Vlakplaas, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Were they authorised issue in the sense of the normal regulations pertaining to the South African Police?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: So in effect both you and Mr Rosslee at the time when you used those firearms, were in illegal possession of those firearms?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And would they be firearms that had been previously lifted or confiscated prior to this occasion or where would they have come from?

FRANK MCCARTER: I'm not too sure, Mr Chairman, we received them at Vlakplaas sometime before then.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Can you perhaps recall what happened to the firearm which Rosslee gave you after the event?  Did you give it back to him or did you keep it with you?

FRANK MCCARTER: I don't remember receiving a firearm but I can't deny it.

MR VISSER: You don't remember receiving the firearm, is that what you said?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Oh, I see, I'm sorry, perhaps I mustn't assume things.
	Mr Rosslee said that he gave you one of two of these pistols which he had in his possession, you say that you can't remember? - to use on the occasion.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I'm not too sure.  I recollect receiving the weapon when we were at Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So are you saying in effect that this was part of a pool of weapons which you were  using?

FRANK MCCARTER: More than likely, it's difficult to describe.  We were given these weapons at Vlakplaas some, quite some time before this incident took place.

MR VISSER: Well Mr McCarter, I'm certainly not going to press you to attempt to remember.
	At the time of the shooting you referred to a hood that was drawn over the head of Mr Bhila, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: My question to you is, was or was he not also handcuffed?  And if you can't remember, please say so really.

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't deny it or agree with it.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.  Because according to the recollection of Mr Rosslee, his hands were cuffed behind his back and he had a hood over his head at the time when he was shot.
	Alright.  Going on then, he is taken, that is Mr Bhila, is taken to the edge of the cliff, and you told the Committee that you shot him once in the head.

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Were you standing on his left side or his right side, in front of him or behind him and where in his head did you shoot him or can't you remember?

FRANK MCCARTER: I shot him in the temple.

MR VISSER: In the temple, left or right?

FRANK MCCARTER: On the right temple.

MR VISSER: So you were probably standing on his  right?

FRANK MCCARTER: On his right, yes.

MR VISSER: Was he standing upright or was he kneeling or ...?

FRANK MCCARTER: He was seated on a rock, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Seated on a rock.  That's incidentally as Mr Rosslee recalls it as well.  Did he then fall down?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And Mr Rosslee would have shot him when he was lying on the ground?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did - how did you come to put this bag over his head?

FRANK MCCARTER: We didn't want for him to know where he was going.  We put him under the impression that we were going to meet people.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were still helping him to get out of the country?

FRANK MCCARTER: That was his impression.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what you had told him.

FRANK MCCARTER: No, no, can I just clarify here, Mr Chairman.  He was picked up by one of the Askaris on the pretext that he was leaving the country, however then we apprehended him or we intercepted the vehicle, then he was aware that he was now in our custody.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you were police?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: May I just ask, where did you get this hood from that you put over Mr Bhila's head?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall that, Mr Chairman, I just know that there was a hood.

ADV SIGODI: And what kind of a hood was it?

FRANK MCCARTER: Just a material sort of bag, almost like a prisoner's property bag that one keeps in the cells.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	And thereafter the body as you say, was disposed over the cliff?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: If I may Mr McCater, I want to take you back now to the pistol shooting range.  You spent quite a considerable period of the day at the pistol shooting range with Mr Bhila, as I understand it?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: At least the whole of the afternoon?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Until it became dark?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And then you left.  Can you remember, and if you can't please say so, who gave directions as to where to drive?

FRANK MCCARTER: This was Michael Lembede.

MR VISSER: Michael Lembede.  He's the gentleman who was later killed, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Who was the Ernest that I heard you refer to in connection with making contact with Mr Bhila?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I don't like the word "Askari" but that's been used quite regularly so I'll use that word, he was one of the Askaris from  Vlakplaas.

MR VISSER: And his job was simply to make contact with him, or is that as I understand your evidence, and nothing further?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, he was merely there to coerce Mr Bhila into our clutches.

MR VISSER: Were you already at the pistol shooting range when Mr Bhila arrived?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, I was in the vehicle that intercepted Ernest and Mr Bhila.

MR VISSER: And did you thereafter go to the shooting range with Mr Bhila alone without Ernest?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.