Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, are you calling any witnesses in addition to your applicant?

MR VISSER: Chairperson no, except that it has occurred to us that we might call Mr Botha back because of questions that have been put to other witnesses which really concerns Mr Botha whether he brought the stuff along with him in this new view that we have on the matter of two separate occasions.  I think that he should be given an opportunity to tell you what his evidence is.  I'm not sure whether he is here, I don't see him.   Can I ask for a brief adjournment just to see whether he is here, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just before that I'll just ask Mr Nel whether his applicants are calling any witnesses?

MR NEL: No, Chairperson, I have no witnesses further to call.  Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR VISSER: Two issues which have arisen from cross-examination of other witnesses, Chairperson.
	Mr Botha ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you commence.
	Mr Botha, you're still under your former oath, do you confirm that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, I want to limit you to two aspects.  The first is, do you know where the items which you used in the suffocation of Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla on that day, that is the blanket, and you say you cannot recall whether it was a towel or what it was but do you recall where those things came from?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, most probably from the offices in Bethlehem.  The blanket could have been from the cells and I cannot recall that I took anything with me.

MR VISSER: Can you recall who brought the things to the office where you undertook the interrogation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And the following aspect, Mr Gordhan says that somewhere while it was still light the original three minutes to which you had referred, you spoke to him and then you left and an hour or two later you returned and then the assault took place.  What do you say to that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, it cannot be correct.  My recollection is that the opportunity that I was with Mr Gordhan that was after 5, after the official closing time of the offices and secondly, from my interrogation of Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla and the asthma attack, I sent Marius back to the chemist and that was before 6 o'clock.  So in an hour and a half I worked with the two people and I cannot recall that there was such a big gap, it was continuous that I worked with Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR NEL: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, any questions?
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR GORDHAN
	Mr Botha, I put it to you that your first interaction with me was at the time when there was daylight out of the window?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes that is correct.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you that you then had to wait until it became dark?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, there was no reason for me to wait.

MR GORDHAN: Your other colleagues have actually said that lights had to be put out and so on in order to find the right moment because here was a huge window one floor above a street in the centre of Bethlehem, if in fact it wasn't dark and the lights hadn't been put out any member of the public could actually see through that window and see what was happening?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it was on the first floor and I don't think there are adjacent buildings next door where one can see into the building so I cannot agree with what you are saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Gordhan, if I may intervene?
	When the actual torture took place the lights were off?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot recall whether the lights were on or off, I knew it was in a given time after the offices had closed between half past 4 and 6 o'clock.

MR LAX: There has been evidence already from two of your colleagues that it was dark, the lights were switched off and it was dark and the purpose of that darkness we are told was to frighten Mr Gordhan or that's what they speculated at any rate?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Lax, I recall it is Free State and in the middle of winter so I don't know what time the sun goes down, it may have been dark.

MR LAX: Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: The only point - I don't think we're going to go too far and I don't want to take up your time, is my recollection of all of this is fairly crystal clear and I've already put it to Mr Botha, it's up to him to come forward with the facts.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any further questions?

MR LAX: Chair, if I may just interpose?
	There's just one issue that's occurred to me and it follows exactly out of the questions you've been asked right now and that is at the time Mr Lalla was questioned, was it dark already?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I really cannot recall whether it was light or dark.  If the lights were on and it was dark outside then it may be so but I cannot recall whether it was night or day.

MR LAX: Was Mr Lalla questioned in the very same office or in a different office?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The same floor, the offices were diagonally opposite each other.

MR LAX: And the same paraphernalia was used to question him?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that's how I recall it.

MR LAX: You wouldn't dispute the fact that your colleagues have indicated that it was some sort of a rubber tube like device that was used to smother them with?  Not a handkerchief but something rubber that was stretchy?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: My recollection was that it was a cloth or a towel.  I have thought about it, I did not have a rubbery thing.

MR LAX: Obviously if it was some sort of fabric it would have to be wet to achieve your purpose?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: To suffocate him, yes.

MR LAX: It means you would have had to wet it somewhere.  Do you remember doing that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I did not wet anything but the towel works just as well if you fold it over and pull it tight around his head.

MR LAX: I'm not engaged in that sort of stuff but anyway, thank you Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Botha, just one thing which I need clarity on.  On the morning when you went out to interrogate the people did you foresee the use of violence?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I did not drive out with the purpose of torturing them.

ADV BOSMAN: You cannot recall where this equipment came from.  Can you recall who brought it there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No I cannot.

ADV BOSMAN: Because I find that strange.  If you did not go out with the purpose of using violence then at the stage when you decided to use coercion you must have thought what type of coercion should you use?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, my decision would have been what was available there and that is why I usually would not wrap a person in blankets or the cells would be directly below and I would have obtained a blanket from there.  I may have sent one of my colleagues to fetch it or whether I'd asked for it, I cannot recall.  The towel would have been available because there were men's and women's toilets which had towels there.

MR LAX: And the blindfold?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It could have been a handkerchief.

MR LAX: And the piece of string that was used?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, as far as I know no string was used.

MR LAX: Some of your colleagues conceded that string had been used?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, I cannot recall.  A rope around the blanket is strange to me.