Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

ADV VISSER: All right. When did you - how long did it take for you to come back?  Can you give us some estimation?  You ran down the river, there was tear-gas, there was confusion, there was firing, how long did you stay away?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Do you mean when they started to shoot the combi?

ADV VISSER: I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Do you mean when they started to shoot the combi? Are you asking that question in regard to the time when they started shooting or when?

ADV VISSER: You opened the door, there was tear-gas, you ran way, there was confusion, you heard firing and you ran down the river, the river-bed.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

ADV VISSER: After how long did you come back to the combi?  One minute?  Give us an estimation.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: It was for a while, I wouldn't say it is 10 minutes, it was when everything, it is when I learnt that everything has stopped.  That is then that I returned.

ADV VISSER: It was quite a while, would you say?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I wouldn't exactly explain what time, I wouldn't say it is 10 minutes, but it was after a while, after I couldn't hear gun shots, that is when the police started to go to the combi, then I followed them to the combi.

ADV VISSER: Did you hear a helicopter in the air?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I heard the helicopter flying.

ADV VISSER: Yes.  How many helicopters do you know were there in the air that day?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If I am not mistaken, maybe there were two, I saw the other one just flying across fast, and the other one followed later.  I would, I am not sure whether it was one or two helicopters or not. I only saw the other one when it was flying across.

ADV VISSER: Yes, because you said in your statement there were two helicopters. I just want to put it to you there was one helicopter in the air that day.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If there was only one helicopter, therefore, it was one helicopter.

ADV VISSER: Yes.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I saw only one helicopter, I don't know if there were two.

ADV VISSER: And you said that when you came back you saw one person lying on the ground besides the combi. Is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: After the whole incident when those people were coming from the trees, to the combi, to look for somebody lying next to the combi, then I followed them and then I saw that somebody was lying on the ground.

ADV VISSER: Yes.  Well, let me put to you what the evidence will be. The evidence will be that when the tear-gas cleared, two people were found lying on the left-hand side of the combi, the port side of the combi, the one behind the other.  Did you see that?  They were both dead.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I seem to remember slightly that just next to the sliding-door, there were people just lying there, but I only saw one person lying on the ground.

ADV VISSER: Yes, that's quite correct, one person was lying next to the sliding-door and another one next to the front door, just in front of him, but you say you don't remember that.  Five people were already dead and one was wounded.  Is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I said to you that one person was lying on the other side, and then somebody was lying next to the sliding-door. I alleged that they were dead.  I only went to the person who was crowded, because he was still alive.

ADV VISSER: Yes, this person, I am told was carried about 30 metres down towards the left of the combi, down the river-bed, away from the tear-gas and stuff. Is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Do you mean the person who was lying on the ground? No, that's not the truth.

ADV VISSER: The person who was wounded, Mr Sehlwana.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: But the person who was lying on the ground was the one who was wounded, he was not taken anywhere.

ADV VISSER: I see.  And Mr Erwee will  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: There may be a misunderstanding here.  What is being put to you, Mr Sehlwana, is that this person was carried away or out of the combi to the spot where the police gathered around him.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I explained that when I went there, I saw that they were crowding the person who was wounded, lying on the ground. I wouldn't know as whether he was taken outside the combi or anywhere else, because I was on the right-hand side and he was on the left-hand side. I would not know as to whether he was taken from the combi or anywhere else to the place where I found him being crowded.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Erwee  ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, to carry on from there.  How far was that from the combi, where the persons gathered around him?  Could you perhaps point out in the room?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Where he was lying where I saw him, it was a distance from where I am sitting next to the speaker there. It was not a distance.

ADV VISSER: The witness indicates, Mr Chairman.

ADV VISSER: Were you present when people were taken out of the combi?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't talk about people being pulled out of the combi.

ADV VISSER: When people were taken out of the combi, Mr Sehlwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry, Mr Visser.  You see, what he is saying to you is that I haven't told you, it didn't come from me that the people were taken from the combi and I don't know that people were taken out of the combi. Maybe, what he is really saying is that you should lay the basis for your question.

ADV VISSER: I accept the criticism, Mr Chairman.  Do you know whether people were taken out of the combi?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Do you mean those people who were killed or what people are you talking about?

ADV VISSER: The people who were killed in the combi, yes.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Do you mean did I see them being taken out?
When they were taken from the combi or wherever, I was not there.  I only heard it from the police station. I don't know how they were brought to the police station.

ADV VISSER: Well, you see that's the point, Mr Sehlwana, because the evidence of Mr Erwee will be that that must have been well after 10 minutes, having waited for the tear-gas to clear, that they went down and removed the bodies from the combi.  Will you accept that?  It was quite a long time.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: No, I don't know that, Sir.

ADV VISSER: Let me tell you what I am getting at here. I am going to suggest to you that you weren't even there when the wounded person was interrogated, was asked questions,  you weren't even there. You had run away.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Now you are deviating my opinion, I was told that I should tell the truth and I have got to tell the truth. I was standing with my colleagues just there to next to - seeing him lying, when he said we were from Gaberone, then they said to him where were you going.  Then they said the driver knows where we were going.  So you want me to deviate, make me deviate from my opinion to tell the truth. I want to tell the truth.

ADV VISSER: Mr Sehlwana, Mr Erwee and Mr Fuchs will say the following. Erwee was asking questions of the wounded man.   Do you agree with that or not?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That may be so, there were many, I wouldn't be able to identify who was asking questions.  But Fuchs did ask questions and I was listening in the process.

ADV VISSER: Fuchs was - well, if you were there you would know that Fuchs acted as an interpreter, because he could speak the Black language.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: You are now confusing me.  He was using the Sotho language whilst he was interrogating him.

ADV VISSER: You do know what an interpreter is, don't you?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I understand, I understand well.

ADV VISSER: Was Fuchs acting as an interpreter that day?