Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: But that was after the 12th.  I cannot recall how long after, but it was afterwards.  The bus was towed in to Piet Retief where it was stored and the investigation had to go on.

MS LOCKHAT: So basically you were not acting under the authority and authorisation of your Commander at that specific time?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, I was under the command of Colonel De Kock.

MS LOCKHAT: I thought you were under the command of Deetlefs as well, just clarify that?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Colonel De Kock was the senior Officer at the scene and he was the Commander of Vlakplaas at that stage.

MS LOCKHAT: But Mr De Kock was now in Piet Retief area, that wasn't his jurisdiction?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: It still remains, the fact still remains that he is an Officer from Vlakplaas and that he had the right to operate in any part of the country.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Ms Van der Walt, do you have any re-examination?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, just one aspect, this firing of the shot from the man who came out of the kombi, I am just looking at my notes because I recall and correct me if I am wrong, that I think it was Mr Deetlefs according to my notes, said that that shot was fired in Manzini's direction and you were coming as I understand your evidence, from the opposite direction or are we talking about different shots here, a volley of shots?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I cannot answer you there exactly, the fact of the matter is I can only answer as to what my memory tells me, I don't have the memory of Mr Deetlefs or anybody else, I can only tell you what I experienced.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Adv Gcabashe, let me just ask a question while on this point,  these AK47's or AKM's, did they shoot one shot at a time or would it come out in spurts, a whole string of bullets?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: It is an automatic assault weapon Chairperson, one could set it on single shots, but usually it was practice to set it on automatic.

CHAIRPERSON: But you saw a single shot?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I saw one flash.

CHAIRPERSON: And if it was on automatic, it would have been something different to what you saw?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Then it would still have flashed for as long as the person drew the trigger.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: But you will agree that Manzini was in I would think a more westerly, running in a more westerly direction whereas you were opposite on the other side, in a more northerly - southerly, direction?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, southerly.

ADV GCABASHE: You were in opposite directions essentially, either the man was shooting one way or the other way?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: You couldn't have been anywhere near Manzini and he could not have been anywhere near you?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No.

ADV GCABASHE: And one flash went off as far as you are concerned?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: I just want to clarify this, my understanding is not that you would have been, in other words that the person shooting would have been between yourself and Manzini, it would have been sort of at a 45 or 60 degree angle?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: You were behind the kombi, you arrived on the left hand side of the road?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And the kombi stood at a slant and Manzini ran around the front and ran to the left?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So it is the degree angle which could be anything from 60 or 90 that is the difference, but it is not right opposite each other, it is not the matter that he would have shot in one direction and the other direction?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you take part in the ambush?  I am asking you because you went there to deliver a vehicle essentially, how did it come about that you became an active participant in the ambush?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, I made the vehicle available and Colonel De Kock also asked me to be part of his team.   It was an instruction which I executed.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising out of questions put by
the panel?  Thank you Mr Rorich, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED