Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-21

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Sir, to the families who lost their people, their grief and our grief, as it was not out intention to kill.  We have come here, forward, to reconcile.
	We ask for forgiveness, we all say and I say to the families...

MR NOTUNUNU: Is that all Mr Nyembezi?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Lastly, the Committee, the Honourable Committee here, we pray that as our intentions or as our deeds were politically motivated, we have come here to tell the truth as to what happened.  We hope that we get amnesty therefore.
	This sir, is from the bottom of our hearts.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Mr Nyembezi, thank you very much Honourable Chair, that is the evidence of Mr Nyembezi sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyembezi, I just want to clarify one or two things with you.
	From what you tell us, and how you shot and when you stopped, I see you have made application for amnesty in respect of the death of those policemen, not so, or a policeman?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Please repeat your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I see in, when you read your initial application, and the one submitted by your Attorney, that amongst other things you made application for amnesty in respect of the death of this policeman, correct?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes, that is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: From what you had testified today, you say that you shot at these people when they were escaping and when they stopped shooting, you turned around and went back to your motor vehicle, do you recall saying so?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: From what I understand of your evidence, you are not too sure if you caused the death of that policeman or am I wrong?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Please repeat your question clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence this morning, you are not in a position to say whether the policemen died as a result of your shooting?  Do you understand that?

INTERPRETER: Sorry Judge, do you refer to him as a person or to them as a group?

CHAIRPERSON: At you personally.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And let's talk about the collective actions.  Are you in a position to say that the actions of perhaps your colleagues, caused the death of the policemen?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: If I understand your question well, it seems as if you are asking me if it is my comrades that caused the death of the police, if you could repeat your question please.

CHAIRPERSON: What I am asking you is whether you can say yourself, that this policemen died as a result of the actions of your colleagues?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: That the police died as a result of my comrades, including myself?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let's put it that way?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes, I admit to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that is so?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Because I also shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you are accepting responsibility for the death of that policeman because of what you described here to us this morning?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I am trying to understand the question well.  Are you asking me if I am the only one who takes responsibility for the police having been killed?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know why you have difficulty with the question.  The question is simple, in your activities that night, there was an operation in progress, there were four of you.  All I am asking is, did this policemen die as a result of what you and your colleagues did during that operation that night?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say so?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Because sir, I was also one of the people who shot and killed the policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that the policemen died as a result of any of the shots fired by you or your colleagues?

INTERPRETER: The interpreter is just repeating the question to the witness.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We got a report from newspapers that the police had died.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know it was the same policemen that you had fired at that was referred to in the newspaper?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: The newspapers stipulated that these policemen were taken from the offices in Bongweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Nothing else sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it not tell you, or did it not say in the report that the bodies of these policemen were found at a particular place?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: They did say sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Which place was this?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: The route to Bizana, towards Bruce Neck.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that a place in the vicinity of which you shot at these policemen?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know the identity of these policemen?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I did not know them sir.

CHAIRPERSON: All you know is that the policemen were abducted from the police station near Kokstad, were found dead in the vicinity where you and your colleagues had shot at two policemen?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you read the application of Solomzi?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Luyanda?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: See, it can't be held against you, but I just want to clarify one point that they say in their application.
	On pages 51 and 58 of this bundle, I just want to read what both of them say because it is the same wording in both.
	They then ran away, we started firing to their direction, following them.  We cornered them, or we cornered and shot them but at a different location.  
	Do you understand what they say?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: As I see it being written sir.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am not asking whether you see it written, I am asking whether you understand what I have just read out to you?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, would you agree there seems to be a bit of difference between your version and what they write down in their application?  Would you agree?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: All I want to ask you is, have you any comments about that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I could say sir, in the chaos there was confusion in the shootings, perhaps they had forgotten some things when they were writing the application.

CHAIRPERSON: I must point out that when they used the word we, it does not necessarily include you.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I understand that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman and Honourable members of the Panel, before I begin, my learned friend Mr Notununu indicated to me during the tea adjournment, that he had a couple of more questions to put to the applicant.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair, may I first of all put my name clear, Notununu, Notununu, not Notunu, thank you very much.
	Honourable Chair, after we had adjourned, at the time of our adjournment, some documents were in fact handed over to Mr Brink by the Kokstad Station Commander.  I had in fact, if I may mention that in the morning I had in fact asked Mr Brink whether there are any documents which he intends using in this Commission and he had indicated that there are none.  I understand that because the documents were handed over very late.
	I must mention Honourable Chair and Honourable Members that I don't want to waste the time of this Honourable Committee but that there is something which refers to some APLA and also something which refers to the cutting of the telephone and the PM report.
	I am not sure, but whether those are not the things I could in fact cover up in re-examination because I don't regard them as that material, but I feel that I must ...

CHAIRPERSON: If they do become material, I will allow you to deal with that after cross-examination.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much, Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you done then?

MR NOTUNUNU: I am okay with that Honourable Chair.