Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying Vips is one of those who were in the community meeting, those captured who were there in the community meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, Manyala and Machinini arrived in a kombi.

MR MAPOMA: Where did they arrive, in the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, was Vips taken to join other captured?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, he was not taken to the shack.  I already said that when they came with him he was half naked and they went back with him.

MR MAPOMA: Now let me get this correctly, you are saying they came with Vips in a kombi?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Into a meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now when Vips was taken to a meeting, was Vips taken to join the others who were captured, in that meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was tied in the kombi, he did not get out of the kombi, he did not see the others.  He did not go to the others who were captured at the meeting, he was tied in the kombi.

MR MAPOMA: In that community meeting the community did not see Vips, is that what I understand?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, the kombis are transparent, they must have seen him but what I mean is that he was not taken out of the kombi to the community.

MR MAPOMA: Okay.  So when the others were taken into the shack, how many were they?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I think - it means there were eight because Vips left with them, with the others.

MR MAPOMA: Are there no others youths who were captured but who were not necessarily killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I already mentioned that we fought in the early hours of the morning, it might have happened that many of them escaped.  The person who I saw escape from the community was Tusanang, he was already captured and he escaped but I do not know about the others.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Now let me understand this correctly, is it not correct that at a certain point there were some youths who were released from those who were captured?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said that one of them was mistakenly identified and then he was released.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who that was?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I know his father, I do not know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this father's name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Mr Ngobese, N-G-O-B-E-S-E.

MR MAPOMA: Now at which stage was Mr Ngobese's son released?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: When they confirmed that he was not the right person he was immediately released.

MR MAPOMA: Where was that?  Was it in a shack or in the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was at the meeting at E section.

MR MAPOMA: At the meeting you said was at Blanko's place?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now that is the only youth you know of who was released?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, we did not have evidence about his involvement and he was released.

MR MAPOMA: So if I get your evidence well, all those youths who were captured except one, were then taken and killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying any information which says that at least four youths were released is not correct as far as you are concerned?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would not say it's incorrect or it is correct.  I said that we split into two groups, maybe they were released by the other group but not mine.

MR MAPOMA: Now in that shack, when the youths were taken to a shack, were you there in the shack?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I went to the shack when our commander issued out an order that they should, they must be fetched.

MR MAPOMA: Now to a shack, is it your evidence that Mr Buthelezi was taken together with the youths from Blanko's place where the meeting was, to a shack?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, all of them were tied up in the shack, all of them.

MR MAPOMA: Now, if any suggestion is that Mr Buthelezi happened to be captured because he went to a shack to look for his child and then was captured in that process, is that evidence not correct as far as you are concerned?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is incorrect Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Okay.  Now this decision to kill them, when exactly was it communicated to you, when you were still at Blanko's place or at some other stage?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was after the meeting at Blanko's place, an order was issued out that they be killed.

MR MAPOMA: In that meeting which was chaired by Machinini, was there any resolution taken that the youth be killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said that Machinini did not pronounce the death of these people, he was actually addressing the issue of stability in Moleleki, that crime must be stopped.  And the people, the community, raised their views, they said they must be killed but the Chairperson of that meeting did not agree to that decision.

MR MAPOMA: Do you remember any, a single member of the community who came with that suggestion that they be killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Unfortunately it's hard to recall, I won't be specific as to who said they must be killed.

MR MAPOMA: So out of those views which were given by some people in the meeting, then an instruction from the SDU leadership came to you that they be killed, is that what I understand?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now Machinini, let me get Machinini's role, was he chairing this meeting or was he addressing as a speaker in the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was chairing the meeting Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now in the process of chairing the meeting there are some decisions which are taken and the chairperson conveys those decisions to the meeting, is that not correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Who was taking the decisions Sir?

MR MAPOMA: I'm just asking a general question now.  In the normal course of a meeting a resolution is taken and the meeting conveys that resolution to the members of the meeting, that this is a resolution, is that not correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: In general that is the procedure.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  Now in this particular instance, is there any stage where Machinini announced that it is resolved by the community that these youths who were captured must be killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, he never said that, he never announced that.

MR MAPOMA: Will I be understanding it correctly if I say that it was never a decision of the community that the youths be killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: A decision was not taken by the chairman of the meeting that those youths be killed, an order was issued out by the commander of the SDU that these youths be killed.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, through you Mr Chairperson.
	Now how, in your opinion, did the meeting resolve the issue of the captured youths, what should be done about them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Some members of the community wanted these youths to be killed.  I have already said that Machinini addressed the issue of stopping crime in Moleleki, the order came from the commander.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Now, do you know Sepo Baloi?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I remember him.

MR MAPOMA: Was he not amongst the youth who were captured?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: According to my little knowledge he is one of those who left with Ntjebe.  I indicated yesterday that the vice chairperson of the section left with the commander to go and fetch the Red Cross but on their way in block A they were shot at by the youth.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does Sepo Baloi come into the picture?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, there were rumours that Sepo Baloi was involved in the planning of the assault on members of the SDU but it was discovered later that rumour was not true.  He in fact left with Ntjebe to go and fetch the Red Cross car to remove the body, so this was rumour was destroyed.

MR MAPOMA: Let's come to the incident of the killing.  So the order was to kill the youth and your intention when you took them to the veld was to kill them as instructed?