Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-16

MR LAX: You see, in the trial from two different sources there was evidence to say that there was no unrest in that township at that time.  There was no conflict between the ANC and the PAC at that time.  Can you comment on that?  Do you remember there was that evidence in the trial?  One from a policeman who said so, and the other from some of the witnesses who saw you at the scene.  And also from your uncle.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: At that time I perceived the court as oppressive, such that I do not have knowledge of other things or other matters that were discussed in court because I think they were trying to suppress us.

MR LAX: But in the court case this wasn't seen as a major political matter.  The issue of the political nature of your actions wasn't made evident.  It was in fact disguised completely.  It was avoided by you and your defence and by the prosecution.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I've explained, things happened in court.  What I tried to show up in court was that I was a PAC member and that the deceased was an ANC member, but I did not get into the nitty-gritties of the case.

MR LAX: Please turn to page 10.  Please look at paragraph 12(e).  I'll read to you what it says so it can be translated to you.  The question is
"Offence in respect of which found guilty and sentenced, if applicable."
And the answer is:
"It seemed that I was paying the revenge of my family."
What did you mean by those words?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is the way the courts looked at the case and that is how they actually perceived it, and that is how they decided on it, that I was acting on revenge.  I was surprised and shocked by this.

MR LAX: Your advocate used that as a justification, as a mitigating factor on your behalf when she addressed the court on sentence.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I will say is that I personally, when I arrived in court, I just got a lawyer there in court and I told him that I was not guilty of the crime.  That was the only thing that I told him.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibiya, after this incident, to your knowledge, I know that you were arrested soon after that, but to your knowledge, were there any further attacks of PAC persons by the ANC?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I can say, I did try to communicate with my members, but they tell me that things have quietened down.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that after this particular incident where Dludlu got shot?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, when I was sentenced.

CHAIRPERSON: From the information at your disposal, was the deceased Dludlu, was he one of the leadership figures in the ANC structures?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I would put it yes, he was, because he was in the forefront.

CHAIRPERSON: And then on the particular day when this incident happened, was it just by chance that you were alone that day, that Mandla and Sipho were not with you?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: From the way that it was planned, things did not go accordingly.  We started looking for these people the previous evening, but it was only on the following day that I met these people.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't expect that you would meet them?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: No, I did not expect it.  It was just pure chance.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you report back to Mandla after the incident, after you had shot the deceased?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: When I finished doing this, I did not sleep at home that night, but I did not get the opportunity to report to Mandla because on the following day when I arrived at home I was informed that the police had been looking for me.  That was when my uncle took me to the police station and therefore I did not get the opportunity to report the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: The third of the applications form that you completed, or that was completed, seems to be more detailed, seems to contain a lot of the information that was left out in the previous ones.  Did Vendi assist you with completing the third form as well or who assisted you, if any?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I remember is that he indeed was the only one who tried to assist me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo?  Just a minute.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Sorry, Chairperson.  Thank you.  There's something I forgot to touch on when I was asking these questions.  You say that many, many people were chased away from the township, or killed, or had their houses burnt down, is that right?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now, you'd been to that township many, many times before 1991.  It wasn't your first time to come there?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR LAX: You spent your school holidays there?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I would sometimes go there on school holidays.

MR LAX: And so you were quite well known in the area?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes.

MR LAX: You would have known quite a lot of the people in the area?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, I knew most of the people in the community.

MR LAX: Can you tell us who some of these people were that were killed, apart from your own relatives, other people?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Somebody I remember is Bibi Masidlela, a female.  Lucky Similane as well as Sbenzi whose surname I've forgotten, and others whom I did not know.

MR LAX: How many others approximately were killed?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: If I remember correctly, there may be two or three, but the person I remember well is Bibi, because I was also in the area when that happened.

MR LAX: So, in this period then we have five PAC members who are killed over this period, plus your three family members, and that's from 1990 until 1992.  In other words, nearly three years.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: I'm saying you've spoken about two names and you've said two or three others.  So that's five people, plus your three family members.  They are the ones that were killed over this three year period, from 1990 onwards?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is so, although I cannot - maybe I don't know others.

MR LAX: And approximately how many - these people that were killed, were their houses burnt as well?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: With regards to Bibi, he was shot but his house was not burnt down, but Lucky was killed and his house was also burnt down.

MR LAX: How many other houses were burnt down?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: The ones that I remember well are about seven.

MR LAX: Eight in total then?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I would just like to just to have an adjournment.  I have to answer a call of me.  I have pressed up, I just waited for you to finish.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So to take tea.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we adjourn for tea then ... (inaudible)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I won't do any re-examination, Mr Chairman.  That's the applicant's case.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, there is no further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ready to address us, Mr Mbandazayo?