Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

MS THABETHE: Having your answer in mind, would you say then that the act of shooting Mr Barkor had anything to do with the political objective of your organisation, ANC?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, it's got nothing to do with that.

MS THABETHE: Now coming to the shooting at the policemen, that is Mr Reed and Mr Craven, the policemen who were chasing you, do you think that was necessary?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, it was not necessary.

MS THABETHE: And do you think this action would have in any furthered the objectives of the ANC?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, not at all.

MS THABETHE: Now coming to the murder of Mr Walters, the guy who was in the vehicle, why didn't you try and overpower him?  There were two of you, he was the only one in the car.  Why didn't you try and then chuck him out of the car and then take the car and run instead of shooting at him?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: As I have already mentioned that I came through the passenger door and accused number 3 came to the driver's door and on the passenger side the door was locked and accused number three proceeded for the driver's door and opened the door and we couldn't see properly, it was becoming dark at that time and there was noise and we were being chased with a hail of bullets and there was confusion, we couldn't think properly because we were not yet used to that situation and we also panicked.

MS THABETHE: Do you agree with what he did?  Do you agree with his decision to shoot Mr Walters?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, I totally disagree that is why I even asked the question as to why did he shoot at him and then he explained to me that he couldn't see properly, it was a mistake.

MS THABETHE: And would I be correct to say it cannot be even justified politically?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: In your opinion, bank robbery is just plain bank robbery.  Even in Court I didn't mention any political motivation, but my intention was to come here and apologise to the people who were traumatised more especially Mrs Walters.  It is up to you to associate it with political objective, but to me, this is an opportunity for me to come here and apologise to the people who were wronged.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS LOONAT IN RE-: Your Honour, I just want to clarify one point on the question of Mr Craven.  It is my understanding, on page 63, line 7, that there was in fact some confusion and line, the first paragraph on page 63, I quote, it says that
"Accused number three fired directly at him when he was in his vehicle"
and it goes on to say that:
"Mrs Johns and Holman both agree that accused number 3 did the firing"
and not my client.  My client was unaware of the firing from the outside.  I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT

UNKNOWN: Mr Mahambane, there's just one issue that I'm a bit puzzled about and maybe if you'll clear it up for me.  Zitho Ncumalo, you said that that was the name of Mandla, is that right?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: That's Mandla who came from G Section to L Section to train you and he was your Commander, is that the same Mandla?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now in the Judgment at page 42 of the bundle, there's reference made to Zitho Ncumalo being present on the scene.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Please repeat the question Sir.

UNKNOWN: In the bundle page 42 of the papers and your lawyer's showing you the section, it says
"When they were dealing with the weapons by themselves and by Zitho Ncumalo..."
and then it carries on and then it says:
"Accused number three said the weapon he saw protruding from Zitho's belt was an automatic pistol."
Now you've told us nothing about Mandla being present on the scene, yet it's clear from here that he was present.  Why haven't you told us about this?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Mandla was not present.

UNKNOWN: Well who is this Zitho Ncumalo they're talking about who was present, who had a gun protruding out of his belt?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Zitho Ncumalo is Mandla, but I think this is a mistake, because Mandla was not there.

UNKNOWN: Well was Mandla maybe not the driver who ran away and was never arrested and that's why you're not telling us about it?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, that is not true.

UNKNOWN: why was his name mentioned at the trial at all?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: You were there, I wasn't there.  I'm asking you, how did his name come up at the trial as Zitho Ncumalo?  In what context was the name mentioned at the trial?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We were asked where we got the firearms from.  We mentioned his name.  That's how he was implicated.

CHAIRPERSON: You pleaded guilty in this case, isn't it?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You advocate, did your advocate hand in a written summary of what you admitted that you had to sign?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't testify at the trial, did you?  Did you testify at the trial when you pleaded guilty?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I pleaded guilty in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja and you didn't take the oath and tell the Judge what happened, did you?  It was not necessary, you pleaded guilty, or did you?  I don't know, I'm asking.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I think I remember testifying.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did you testify on the merits or on sentence?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I cannot remember.

UNKNOWN: Just one last thing and that is that - did only two of you enter the bank?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that is correct, the third person remained at the door.

UNKNOWN: Outside or inside?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: At the door.  He was just there at the door.

UNKNOWN: You see, if you read this judgment it's clear from this Judgment that Mr Kouvaris and two of the ladies who were inside the bank who testified, speak about three people coming inside the bank.  If you like, I'll show you the portions.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain that, because it does appear in the Judgment.

UNKNOWN: Page 42 - sorry, just bear with me one second, I'll give you the specific reference.

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't matter.  I'm telling you it's in the record, in the Judgment that three people entered the bank.  What have you got to say about it?  Have you got an answer?  In the record it states that three people entered the bank.  What have you got to say about it?

UNKNOWN: Page 38, lines 27 onwards.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I cannot dispute that because as we got into the bank, the two of us, the one who remained at the door was regarded as inside, though he remained there at the door.  That is why the person is saying three people entered the bank.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, did you not even foresee that there may be shots fired at the bank when you people took firearms?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That was possible, because as we were trying to get out of the bank, we were shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went there, did you foresee that it is possible that you people may have to use the firearms and somebody may be killed?  You must have foreseen it, that's why you took the guns.  Not so?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Do you mean the shooting would take place inside the bank?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It wouldn't be possible to fire inside the bank.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  You're excused
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Loonat are there any other witnesses?

MS LOONAT: No, Your Honour, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms de Klerk, have you got any witnesses?

MS DE KLERK: No thank you Mr Chair.  Mrs Barkor has asked if she could be excused.  She's not feeling too well with what she's heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe have you got any witnesses?

MS THABETHE: No witnesses, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Loonat have you got any submissions to make?

MS LOONAT: Just my final address, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MS LOONAT: Okay.