Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR MALAN: Do you say therefore through this that the order which Gen Oelofse gave to you, was cleared with Constand Viljoen or Ferdi Hartzenberg, what kind of construct does one place upon this?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The construct which I place upon this is that Oelofse was a member of the Generals in staff and would have discussed it before he had given me an order as such.
	It would have been preferable if Japie Oelofse could have been here, because he would have been able to answer your questions better.

MR MALAN: Dr Hartzenberg and Gen Viljoen are not members of the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Dr Ferdi Hartzenberg, at the time of that incident and that meeting, were in close liaison with the AWB and Generals in staff, they sat together on the platform, they planned it together and they set certain objectives together.

MR MALAN: This order was received by you immediately after the Order Group meeting, is that the meeting to which you are referring?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No.

MR MALAN: What meeting are you referring to?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The deed which emanated from this order, was the road block.

MR MALAN: Correct, and you  have said that that order came from Gen Oelofse in cooperation between him, Hartzenberg and Viljoen.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, that is correct if I understand it correctly in terms the way of which you are leading the question.
	This order came from Gen Oelofse.  Gen Oelofse stated it very clearly to us that a general meeting was called in terms of what was decided at Generals and staff and the Generals involved at that instant, were Ferdi Hartzenberg and Constand Viljoen.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Malan, I am going to - let me see if we cannot just stop this before it gets out of hand.
	Are you saying that you know as a fact that Oelofse collaborated with Gen Viljoen in coming to this order which Oelofse gave you, or do you just think that probably he must have discussed that with Gen Viljoen?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Not Oelofse, the General staff.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the General staff?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The General staff would have discussed it Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think they did that, or do you know as a fact that they did?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I know as a fact they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did what, I do not want to put words in your mouth, I want to hear it come from you, did what?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I know for a fact that the Generals in staff, Constand Viljoen and Ferdi Hartzenberg entered into negotiations.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no that is not what I am asking.  They might have had several meetings before that.  I am talking about this incident of the road block, because you say this order in paragraph 44, you say you are referring to the question of the road block and the identification of ANC people and killing them.
	That is what you are saying in paragraph 4 isn't it, now I want to know from you are you saying that Oelofse or the Order, whatever you call it, that group which came to that decision, are you saying that they came to that decision in collaboration or in consultation with Gen Viljoen?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: There have been meetings with Constand Viljoen and the Generals in staff.  At those meetings or after those meetings, it was conveyed to me personally in the presence of some of my officers, by Gen Oelofse that the war was about to break out.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kloppers ...

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I am trying to get to the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am helping you now to come to the point, I don't want to listen to that history, I have heard it before, you have said it many times.  I want to know from you Mr Kloppers, are you saying as a fact that the order to go and put up a road block on the 12th of December 1993 to identify and kill ANC people, was an order which came after consultation or in collaboration with Gen Viljoen?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It came directly from Gen Japie Oelofse.

CHAIRPERSON: I know you have said that.  I want to know about Viljoen.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I think it could have been.

CHAIRPERSON: You think?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you think, go on.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I think that it might have occurred in cooperation with Constand Viljoen and others.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible you may be wrong in so thinking?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: While Gen Oelofse was a soldier and a leadership figure, I would never have believed that he would have made an error regarding something like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think so, why do you think this was done in cooperation with Gen Viljoen?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Because he personally said to me before the time that he would enter into cooperation with Constand Viljoen and the Generals in staff and what happened was that they decided that we should be on a 24 hour assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: So, the premises on which you bring in Gen Viljoen is that, is as a result of what you were told by Gen Oelofse?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: I would just like to come back to paragraph 44.  The deeds which are referred to are the shooting and the road block and there you still implicate Gen Oelofse with Gen Viljoen and Dr Hartzenberg?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Did Gen Oelofse tell you to set up the road block, that he wanted to see corpses that he had cleared it with Hartzenberg and Viljoen?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: He did not say that he had cleared it with Viljoen or Hartzenberg.

MS VAN DER WALT: I realise the problem which Mr Kloppers has, because this paragraph should be read in a certain way and I know that he has answered but I would like to point out to the Committee that this paragraph has to do with the motive for the deeds, and then the amendment which he has brought it.
	In cooperation with Gen Constand Viljoen and Dr Ferdi Hartzenberg, was to establish a political revolt and in so doing prevent the government of the time, from proceeding with the general election.
	This paragraph does not have anything to do with the order to commit the deeds, this paragraph has to do with the motive and if you then consult page 7, page 6, where there was a meeting during which Constand Viljoen said that there would be war now, one can see that this is what this paragraph is about.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt, that is what he should have said.  I asked him and he wanted to go back into some history, I drew him and I restricted him specifically to the incident.
	He didn't say what you are telling us.  He said he believed in fact he said, I think that this order to kill this people on this day, was cleared with Gen Viljoen.  He said I think so and I asked him is that what you think, and he said yes, I think so.
	He didn't say the cooperation with Gen Viljoen and Hartzenberg had nothing to do with this particular incident, he actually said he thought so.  He actually said I think that the order to kill these people on the 12th of December 1993, was cleared with Gen Viljoen.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, I understand that and I am not attempting to argue that point.  But the content of paragraph 44 does not have specifically to do with the deeds, but it deals with the motives.  Then it turns to the reason why they committed such deeds.
	It is not specifically about that deed, but the core issue of this paragraph is the motive for the act.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van der Walt, sorry I am not Afrikaans speaking, look at the sentence.
	The motive for the acts committed by me - what is he describing there?

CHAIRPERSON: With respect ...

CHAIRPERSON: What is the last noun in the first portion of that sentence?  No Mrs Van der Walt, the last noun is deeds and then after the comma, he proceeds to describe the deeds.