Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala is going to lead Mr Schelhase and I will ask Mrs Mary Burton to swear you in.  Thank you Mary.

MARY BURTON: Good morning Mr Schelhase.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr Schelhase, good morning.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Good morning.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: May I first start by asking you when you first got involved in Black areas in the area?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Madam I joined the then Administration Boards which became the Development Boards in 1974 where I started as a clerk in the rental office in Langa.  And from then on I was promoted and was in charge of, like a chief superintendent of township administration and housing of Langa, Guguletu, Nyanga, Crossroads and later Khayalitsha.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Could you state what  your position was, what your responsibilities were particularly to the period of 1985/1986?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Madam in 1986 in the beginning, I think it was in April, probably March, the Development Boards were abolished and we became personnel of the Provincial Administration and the Provincial Administration asked me to take specific care of the Crossroads development situation and I was seconded as a town clerk for Crossroads.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: So in fact during the first attack you were already in the area?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes Madam.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Is it correct for me to assume that you clearly came to know the physical areas and the people in the areas very well?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: I do Ma'am.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In that case you would have been consulted by people such as security force members, security branch members etc, for guidance on the dynamics of areas as well as the personalities in the areas?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: You indicated in one of your interviews that you would identify individuals to the security forces as potential allies and informers?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Could you tell us a little bit about that, how you did that, where you got your recommendations for informers, I mean which groups did you tap?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes I will be a little bit more cautious about the term "informers", but be that as it may.  It was part of my duties to understand the type of community in which I work because to make decisions in an environment which you don't understand it is imperative that you go to the trouble to learn to understand and in the process ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Mr Schelhase - could you please be quiet Ladies and Gentlemen, it's very difficult to hear Mr Schelhase.  Thank you.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: And in the process of learning to know the environment it is obvious that you have to know the people who live in the environment and it was very important for me to know who the leaders in the communities were in order for me to do my job properly.
 To come back to your question Madam, if I was visited by members of the security forces or the police and they asked me who I would recommend that they can talk to about the security situation, whatever reason they are there for I would refer them to the people that I understand are the leaders of the community.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, how did you come to find out about who were the leaders of the communities?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: By moving amongst people and of course receiving representations from those leaders on behalf of the community.  Presentations in the sense where the community needs something, they would come to me because I am the town clerk, or at the time the superintendent of the township.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Is it correct then to say that because there was so much tension in the area that you yourself had your own - you don't want to use the word "informer" but I am going to use the wording, that you also had your own system of ...(intervention)

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Obviously, yes.  If I can just perhaps - I don't want to elaborate too much but I had more than 400 people at the time who worked in my administration and of course we are in daily contact and these people tell me what happens in the community.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Clearly the information that you got from some 400 people would either be biased against one group or the other?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes obviously.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I'll come back to that question a little later, but my other question is, could you please describe your participation in the Joint Management Centre structures of the Western Cape?  And I am not trying to get you to go back to the past, but during the periods preceding the conflict.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes.  I was asked by the military personnel to serve on what they called a Social Economic and Welfare Committee as a substructure of the JMC system.  They call it a min-JMC and it was conducted from my office in Crossroads.  I was the chairman of that committee who had to deal with the socio-economic matters relating to Crossroads.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In that context Sir, to whom did you report?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Depending on the type of decisions that were made, but there were minutes kept at those meetings and those minutes were then, and the decisions that were taken, were then processed to the JMC, either in the Castle or whether it is in Thomas Boydell building or whatever, where it belonged.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: It has already been reported to us that Mr Ngxobongwana, who was part of the leadership or perhaps the leadership in Crossroads belonged to the UDF and that during this period he broke ties with the UDF, that is 1985.  He broke ties with the UDF.  Could you briefly describe your understanding, what you think happened?
 I am asking this question with the assumption that you and Mr Ngxobongwana had a good relationship.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes Ma'am.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Okay.  Would you then say what happened.

ULRICH SCHELHASE: As far as I know Madam that Mr Ngxobongwana is not an easy man to understand, for the simple reason that he has always wanted to be his own man.  And I think that he has heeded the advice of Machiavelli, which boils down to the point that do not align yourself with princes stronger than you because you will not become the partner but their captive.  And I think that was, to put it in a particular context, I think that was his motivation that he had the impression that the Crossroads issue was fought against the Koornhofs and the systems of the time on his and his community's behalf, and that he was feeling very uncomfortable that people from other areas had to dictate to him how he should conduct himself in the future about the future of that area.  I think that was in a nutshell his mindset as I understood it during the time.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: During that period you knew that Mr Ngxobongwana was in contact, for example, with security forces, special branch, riot unit members such as Barnard, Dolf Odendaal as well as the South African Army, Western Province Command Group 40, you were aware that he was in close contact with those groups?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: It is perhaps what I have heard Madam but I have not been with Mr Ngxobongwana at that time in the presence with police or military.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: So you are not aware of his relationship ...(intervention)

ULRICH SCHELHASE: I was aware of what other people told me and what I've heard, but I mean I was personally not part of discussions they could have.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In your relationship with Mr Ngxobongwana he never these liaisons to you?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: It may have been Ma'am.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: He may have mentioned it?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Ja he may have, I do not deny that but it may have been.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Would you say that it was in the interests of the Development Board for the attack on the satellite camps to occur?

ULRICH SCHELHASE: Yes Ma'am.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Would you also say that it was in the interest of the security forces for these attacks to take place?