Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-02

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by throwing the firearms the other side?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: On the direction that we were running to, it was a yard, I think it was a yard, there was a garage inside and there was this high wall and it was very difficult for us to jump this wall having firearms therefore we decided to throw them on the other side and then we jumped after that.  I remember very well that the pistol was with me and I threw that pistol over the wall and after that we picked them up after jumping this high wall and we picked them up and we ran again.

CHAIRPERSON: With the firearms?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We were running away with the firearms that were with us when we got into the car and the other two firearms that we got in that police van.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now what caused you not to go back to the car you were travelling in?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: As I was explaining that we were approaching this cross-roads junction.  There was a barrage of bullets from the direction of the cross-roads junction from a car that was on the other side, the one that I thought it was a police casspir and they were shooting towards our car therefore it was difficult for us to go back to our own car.  We ran and we jumped this high fence, high wall that I was talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to those firearms that you took from the police van?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We took these firearms and we went back to Mdantsane at this particular house where we met with the other comrades who were with us at Frankfort Police Station and we told them that we got those firearms and the car was left behind and it was easy for the police to identify us.  We took a decision ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamani, who did you give the firearms to, that's all I'm asking, I don't want a long story.

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: As we were five when they left for Cape Town we left with four firearms, four sub-machine guns, leaving the pistols behind.  We took these two four firearms leaving the pistols behind with the other comrade who was from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Look, listen to me nicely, I don't want a long story.  Those two pistols that were taken from the police van that were thrown over the wall and collected after you climbed over the wall, what happened to those two pistols eventually, who did you give those pistols to?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Those two firearms were left with this comrade in the Eastern Cape.

CHAIRPERSON: With Mabisi?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: His name is Ndota.

CHAIRPERSON: Ndota?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes, we used to call him Ndota.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he or what was he?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Ndota was the one the very first person that we made contact with when we came to the Ciskei.

CHAIRPERSON: Look here, was he the president of Ciskei or what was he?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: He was also an MK soldier.

CHAIRPERSON: Based in the Eastern Cape in Mdantsane?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: He was residing in the Eastern Cape at Alice.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and you never saw those two firearms again?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the first two pistols that were taken from the police station what happened to them?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We left them with Ndota also.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you told us you take those two to Cape Town to Dalasile?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The firearms that we took with to Cape Town were the sub-machine guns.  The four pistols belonging to the police were never taken to Cape Town, we left them with Ndota and we went to Cape Town with the sub-machine guns.

CHAIRPERSON: What was Ndota's duties there in the Eastern Cape?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I had seen Ndota for the first time on that particular day and I did not know what his duties were in the Eastern Cape, I don't even know whether he was employed or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything more?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I am not sure but unless there is a question I am willing to answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, at some stage before the case is closed we would like to know exactly what the applicant is applying for.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  On page 2, paragraph - I'm sorry, Section 9.4, he has applied for amnesty for a shoot out with Ciskei Police and South African Police raid on the police station.  Now on our paragraph 14 there, application for amnesty is for the possession of unlicensed firearm, attempted murder on the police at Frankfort, attempted murder on the police who were in the police van ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where was attempted murder at the Frankfort Police Station?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because there is a policeman which is alleged to have been shot.  The one who they found on the police van and then they took him out to go and knock at the police station, then he was shot by Manobise.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he shot?

MR NOMPOZOLO: He was shot by Manobise.

CHAIRPERSON: How do we know that?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I think he said so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he heard the shot outside and this is what he heard that Monabise had shot at a fleeing policeman.  Do we know whether the policeman was hit or in which direction was aimed at etc?  I'm asking, I'm not saying and I'm not forcing you to concede anything, I'm raising issues that come across in my mind.  Have we got evidence to that effect?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Well because he said, Monamise said "I have shot at this policeman, he was running away" then when somebody who has fired a shot at another person that is an attempted murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he guilty?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Of common purpose, yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because they left together, together with Monabise and others to go and do a raid at the police station and the eventuality of that, they must have foreseen that there could have been shooting taking place at the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Aikona.  Look at it this way.  They went to the police station armed, they must have foreseen that someone can get killed or injured by being shot with those firearms.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That it is in order to facilitate the robbery or the taking of the firearms?

MR NOMPOZOLO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you argue that they also must foreseen that in the event of a policeman running away which had nothing to do with the theft, that someone could get killed?  Is that part of the common purpose?

MR NOMPOZOLO: That's it, Mr Chairperson, the reason for that is as simple as this, it is not known where the policeman was running to.  To raise an alarm on others and all that which ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason he was shot?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because well, we don't know the reason why he was shot ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's ...(intervention)

MR NOMPOZOLO: But when Nomabise said he shot him because he was running away.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, he said "I shot at him when he was running away."  Are we entitled to draw the inferences then?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I imagine that the inference that can be drawn, Mr Chairperson, is that because of the running away of the policeman and Nomabise trying to stop him then that's the eventuality of the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: How does this applicant become guilty of something that he did not even know about?  Never mind foreseeability, he was inside, he heard the shot?

MR NOMPOZOLO: He left the policeman guarded by others outside who were part of his group.  We may withdraw that, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you'd better consult.  I'm just asking the questions, I haven't made up my mind yet what to do.  I'm raising issues that are likely to become issues when we discuss the matter and I'd like the benefit of your argument on that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, actually Mr Chairperson, he himself when there was a resistance from this policeman they had a struggle and he himself managed to bring this policeman down on the ground.