Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

WITNESS:   Firstly I would say I have to start from the TEC.  The TEC divulged that all the people who were involved in the killing of people and making the country ungovernable should come in the open in order to be given amnesty if they tell the truth and make themselves known about the things and the activities as to how they harassed the people.  The IFP didn't divulge anything from that time, therefore it was up to me whether I take the chance or not.  Since I had a chance, I realised that I didn't think about myself, I find it difficult to get through that open door.  I decided to get through the door, whether the IFP agreed with it or not, I had to take the chance.  That's why I'm sitting here today.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... in more detail what this TEC was that you referred to that prompted this change of

MR MACADAM: /heart?

MR MACADAM: 3B heart?

WITNESS:   It was the Transitional Executive Council which was attempting to unite all the organisations to build a new South Africa and it was peacefully encouraging people to lay down their arms and look forward for the bright future, that all the people, no matter how bad the matter have been, no matter what they might have done to others, should go to Canaan, the land of Canaan and that we should come open and say whatever we did and I realised that those were from where I'm coming from.  My people I used to work with didn't take that to heed and I discovered that there is a list at the Transitional Executive Council of people who were involved in the violence in South Africa.  Among those people involved within the list, my name appeared.  I tried to discuss this with M Z Khumalo, trying to suggest that we should go before the Commission and I became a bad element and even today I'm still a bad element.

MR MACADAM: And just to confirm something that will probably be relevant when other people testify, do you have a ... (inaudible) name by which you are commonly known?

WITNESS:  This is a name from Umkhonto.  I'm known as Ken-Ken(?) and also I had a name whilst I was in the IFP, I was known as Madlanduna.

INTERPRETER: I didn't get the last statement.

WITNESS:   Madlanduna means Luthuli.  That's the statement.  I don't have any other name.

MR MACADAM: Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions to the witness at this stage.  I will recall him at a later stage as far as the Esikhaweni activities.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MACADAM

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, Mr Luthuli, you will correct me if
 /I'm
3B I'm wrong.  I understood you to be saying that you had given instructions for people to be killed, eliminated.

INTERPRETER: Mr Ntsebeza, will you please repeat that question?

MR NTSEBEZA: I got the impression that you had given instructions for certain people to be killed.  I think you were saying so in the context of Hammarsdale.  Did I get you correct?  When you said there are so many that you cannot recall?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: [Break in recording] ... kill any people in Hammarsdale or any other place?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: How many people you killed?

WITNESS:   I can't remember.  It happened many times during the fights.

MR NTSEBEZA: There were so many that you cannot recall, people that you yourself killed?  You are not on trial, but I just want to know.

WITNESS:   I can't remember their number.

MR NTSEBEZA: But you cannot remember or you are not able to remember the number?

WITNESS:   I can't recall, because I never went out to kill a person alone.

MR NTSEBEZA: You killed - there are people that you yourself killed?  You are saying you were party to a gang of people who killed people?   Is that in that sense that you said you yourself killed people?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: MR   (?): Now, Mr Luthuli, I want to take you back to what you said about testifying before the Goldstone Commission and you said that before you went to give your testimony there, you met with some people for a briefing and for instructions and in reply to a question from my colleague, you said that the person who gave you the instruction was Mr M Z Khumalo.  Now is that correct?

WITNESS:  That's correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: /Now

MR NTSEBEZA: 3B Now in a matter such as receiving briefing and being told what to say and what not to say, was it only Mr Khumalo or were there others at that meeting or just the two of you?  Can you think back and tell us what happened and what instructions were you given?

WITNESS:   People who were involved were the KwaZulu Police, the IFP and those whom I still remember was Major Langeni.  The police were working under Captain Langeni, people like Zweli Dlamini.  I'm not referring to Zweli Dlamini from the BSI.  Mr Ngema(?).  Most of them were in the BSI and I have forgotten their names and also some Caprivians who were also involved, people like Peter Msane, Leslie Mkhulisi(?).  I can't remember the others.  There was Langeni, M Z Khumalo, Mr Mzimela, who was the secretary to the KwaZulu Government and his deputy, Mr Mkhize.  I can't remember the others.  We were in an IFP office, that's where we met and we were told that there is this investigation going on and we were told that we should go and deny everything and say we don't know anything and all the questions we should be asked by the Goldstone Commission, we should respond as something that we're hearing for the first time, something that we don't know, we shouldn't accept any of the statement put to us.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you, I have no further questions.

MR NTSEBEZA: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR   (?)

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you tell me how long you spent on Robben Island?

WITNESS:   I stayed for ten years.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also said that when the trainees went initially for training you actually had to handle their questions about receiving training from the military.  How were you yourself able to deal with that, seeing that they were

YASMINE SOOKA: /once

YASMINE SOOKA: 3B once your own enemies?

WITNESS:   I will say personally I didn't fully agreed or I didn't agree with the principles of the UDF, especially with their relationship to IFP, because I believe that the IFP will never be an enemy to any black person in South Africa.  I came to that conclusion, because I heard that there's still that working - good relationship between the IFP and the ANC.  I heard that Dr Buthelezi and Dr Mandela were always in contact.  I thought that if Dr Mandela comes out of prison, Dr Buthelezi will hand the leadership to him ... (intervention)

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry, I think you misunderstood.  I'm talking about your receiving training from the military and the Caprivi trainees receiving training from the military guard of the South African regime at that time.

WITNESS:   I can't hear.

YASMINE SOOKA: You mentioned in your evidence that often you had to answer the questions of the young trainees about why the people from the old government were in fact training them and my question actually was, was how you were able to deal with that and also to deal with it personally, seeing that they've actually been on the other side?

WITNESS:   That frightened me a lot, because this question, it shows that even if these young men were training there to protect themselves against the ANC, the idea of having to be trained by the white people disturbed them.  That's why when they asked me why I had to say it was a private company which was employed by the IFP, I was trying to get that out of their mind that this was initiated by the white people.  I had to emphasise that it is a private company, because inside them, there were some who were matured(?) politically.  I will say personally it was a

YASMINE SOOKA: /very

YASMINE SOOKA: 3B very difficult question to me when it was directed to me and I didn't know how to answer back to them, because it's also  it's something that hurt me most of the time.