Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In regard to Nicos's house - he had a fight with us.  He was troublesome.  They couldn't find him.  We knew and they explained to us that he was a courier - he has a contact in Lesotho.  They went to him, they used to visit him many times.  They didn't want to tell him why they were visiting him and what they are looking for and then again they wanted to use him and they were not able to convince him, particularly Shaw and Coetzee.
	They returned and then told us that this person is troubling us: " we are busy to recruit this man but he doesn't want to be recruited".

ADV MEMANI: Carry on.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They informed us - they called myself and Nzito that we should go to this person and visit him.  The instruction was that I should attack his house.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I'm trying my best but I don't hear the names.  He mentioned three names now I think, I didn't hear one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: What is your problem Sir?

ADV MEMANI: Who is Nzito?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is Sergeant Mamome.

ADV MEMANI: It is better to refer to him as Mamome and not as Nzito.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is okay.   I only said that is Sergeant Mamome - that is Nzito, I didn't mention other names.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm quite sure he mentioned other names.

ADV MEMANI: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm quite sure he mentioned other names, didn't he?

ADV MEMANI: No, it was Mr Visser who said he mentioned names.  He didn't mention the other names yet.  Maybe you should let the witness proceed.

MR VISSER: Well, I think maybe the witness should just repeat what he has told us because nobody knows what he said Mr Chairman, not you, not I.

ADV MEMANI: Proceed Mr Motsamai.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if my learned friend refuses ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who told - you said you were instructed to attack the house, who went?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: What are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: You have just told us that Coetzee and Shaw who tried to use this man Nicos, said he was troublesome and you were instructed to attack his house.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Who went to attack his house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I said I will come to those names.  I spoke of two names, that is myself and Nzito who received the commands, then I would come to the names, then I'm still coming to those names.

CHAIRPERSON: Come to them now please.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He gave us that command, that is Colonel Coetzee.  It was myself and Mamome.  We were going to use that very same petrol.

CHAIRPERSON: Who went with you to attack the house.

ADV MEMANI: With due respect Sir, I - isn't it a matter of you - you are asking the witness to come to the conclusion.  The witness is ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking a question.  Who went with you to attack the house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I haven't explained yet how many petrol bombs ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not asking  you about petrol, I'm asking you a simple question which you will kindly answer.  Who went with you to attack the house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is Sergeant Mamome, that is Mtyala, Morakile and myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Motsamai, may you go back to the stage where you were being given instructions.  You told us that Shaw gave you and Mamome instructions, what instructions were those - rather Coetzee?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is Coetzee and Shaw.  We found two people there, that is Coetzee and Shaw.  It was myself and Mamome.  It was - we were off duty.  I arrived at home and made those petrol bombs as I said before how I made the petrol bombs.  This time at this instance, I made six petrol bombs.  Mamome arrived at my place - it was at night.  He was driving a car.  I took those six petrol bombs together with the rags and a knife in the car.
	When I arrived inside the car, I found Mtyala and Morakile.  When I asked him as to whether what do these people want, he said to me: "Boyzi, I want to create a strength", then I said to him: "they were never instructed by Coetzee that where we're going and what we're going to do, you're doing this for the second time".  I said to him: "that is okay, as you have made your own decisions therefore you discuss that with Coetzee, how many people we were".  
	We left then.  We stopped at a street quite a distance from Nicos's house.  From the direction where we were there was a street, that street now they've built houses on it, there are two houses which are built on that street.  We stopped next to the tree at the corner house, then I opened holes on the seal of those bottles.  We had hand gloves all the time.  
	That is where we made a mistake.  When Nzito set light on the bottles, he didn't made them to - he didn't point the bottles down and therefore the rag was pointing up.  When he set the bottle alight, I don't know whether he was shaking or what but Mtyala's hand glove was full of petrol, now the glove caught fire and the bottle was on fire.  I tried to extinguish the fire but the glove - my glove was burnt at the fingertips until the tips of the gloves exposed our fingers.
	After we extinguished the bottles, we used these gloves as they are with our fingers exposed.  They will go to the investigators and tell them what to do, how to handle the situation that we found ourselves in.  We started from scratch with the bottles - the rags must face down and we set them alight - the four bottles.  Mamome had two petrol bombs - the others were not set alight.  We were heading for this house running.  Mtyala started and then Morakile followed - they - I mean here they threw the petrol bombs.  And then Nzito threw the bomb and then after him I followed.  We had to take turns again.  
	When I'm referring to power here, I'm talking of strength in throwing the petrol bombs - those that we had in our left hands.  We didn't set them alight, we just threw them as they were, knowing quite well that they would catch up fire right inside that house.  We went back to the car, running.  We got into the car - drove off - took us to our respective homes.  He reported about the incident in the morning where we usually report and we told them that we have done our task as ordered.

ADV MEMANI: Now, may we proceed to the next incident, the incident contained in paragraph 5.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I hesitate to interrupt but before proceeding to the next incident, I wonder if it wouldn't be better if Mr Memani shouldn't lead his witness to bring out more relevant aspects.  To go into fine detail about setting gloves alight and making a mistake and burning your own fingers and that - is it really relevant to these proceedings?  We'll be here for weeks.  If he were to control his witness - he knows what he wants from his witness.
	Any further detail might come out in the hands of my learned friend Mr Visser who's cross-examining.  I don't believe it's necessary to allow the witness to go on in fine detail - each go home - different directions then they meet again and - get from the witness what is necessary for the purposes of this application.  It will shorten the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that makes a great deal of sense that we have heard intricate detail about events which don't really seem to go very far towards setting out why he is claiming amnesty in respect of them.  And I think if you can Mr Memani, you should try to get your witness to deal with more relevant points and not go on and on as he does.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.   Now the next incident is contained at paragraph 5.  Yes?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: May I say something here?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.