Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: If you look at exhibit "Ki"  this is a memorandum apparently drafted to justified attention in terms of Section 1 of the Internal Security Act.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: One aspect thereof that I would like to focus on is the following
	In general it tells the history of unrest and boycotts and riots, is that correct?
	And more specifically, paragraph 28, page 99, paragraph 28, in the report mention is made of the fact that the people made speeches which incited the people and then it is imputed to Mr Goniwe that he said many would die in the fight for liberation.
	Do you see that?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: If you look at "Kii" - to place it in proper context, it refers to - let us start on page 4.
	When reference is made here to subject, the subject would then be Mr Goniwe, that is sort of police vernacular?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Arising from what my learned friend put to you, that he was a man of peace, in this report the allegation is made that there were rumours and on page 4, second paragraph under the names mentioned there that he incited the children to burn down certain places.  Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Under the date, 26 March 1985, there is a portion in brackets, it seems like a verbatim 	quote in inverted commas, something which Mr Goniwe is supposed to have said.  He said that the country was currently engaged in a civil war, and there are other allegations as well.  I think it's very clear to anybody who would read that.
	Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: On the 27th March, he then quotes examples of the wars in Angola and Mozambique.  And makes it applicable to some extent, to the local situation.	Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So the picture that appears from this, the picture which emerges of Mr Goniwe, the deceased, is that in line with the information which was at your disposal regarding Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: The information which you have just pointed out to me?
	Yes, completely.

MR BOOYENS: Could the statement be made with justification that he was at all times a peacemaker and was not and advocate of violence, and did not incite violence?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, definitely not.

MR BOOYENS: If the commission would just give me a moment, please Chairperson.
	If you would perhaps just look very briefly at page 38 of the application documents.  It is a reference to Mr Harold Snyman's statement.  My learned friend Ms Patel referred to where Snyman said that he later read in the newspaper that the person had been killed.  There's also the next sentence where he says that he couldn't recall whether there had been any specific feedback made to him.
	So Mr Snyman does not an absolute statement in this regard?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: We would like to hand a further document in which we discovered in the very large record in the inquest last night, and copies are being made.
	We would like to put that to the witness relating to the knowledge or lack of it of the negotiations to re-appoint Mr Goniwe.
	It's being made, we gave it to our learned friend for the commission to copy, I don't know how far they are.  There are one or two questions also arising out of the answers given in what may be termed re-examination that I want to ask.
	May I proceed with those questions in the hope that the document will become available?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, is there a basis for which you can ask new questions now?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well....

CHAIRPERSON: I know it's not a court of law.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, it's an inquiry, Mr Chairman, and we are working under somewhat difficult conditions without knowing precisely what is going to be admitted and what is going to be denied.  There are no pleadings or discovery and we did find passages in Mr Winter's evidence which we want to put to this witness, which is inconsistent with the Security Police not having been involved in the negotiations to have Mr Goniwe re-appointed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, I am not concerned with the import of the questions yet.  I am just wary of playing Ali Baba and opening the floodgates to many occasions and many opportunities to ask questions from different representatives.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well I am not, with respect, asking that the floodgates should be opened.  If anything, and very small aperture in order to slip in a thin document.
	But I will leave it.  I can put it to other witnesses, but then it may be suggested that this was the witness that was closest to Mr Winter and why wasn't it put to him.
	He may have been able to throw light on it.  I actually originally this morning when I saw the document taken out by my learned colleague from the record, thought that I would leave it for other witnesses, but in view of what he added this morning, I think that there may be an avenue, if this document is not put to him.

CHAIRPERSON: How many issues do you want to raise with him?

GEORGE BIZOS: Very simply one where I submit he contradicted himself in re-examination in relation to his application and the particular document.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

GEORGE BIZOS: That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about the Winter aspect?

GEORGE BIZOS: That is the document.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  And the document you want to hand in, contains this....

GEORGE BIZOS: Contains - it's a portion of the evidence of  Mr Winter in the Justice Zietsman's inquest, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, have you got any comments?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, yes unfortunately the merry-go-round will start again then.
	It seems if one of the aspects my learned friend wants to raise is a contradiction between what you say and what you say in your - that -  surely is a matter for argument, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: But don't you think that the witness should be given an opportunity to deal with it?

MR BOOYENS: I think my learned friend had better ask the question.
	As far as the Winter document is concerned, obviously we reserve our rights to first see the document and then we will answer such questions my learned friend would like to ask him about it.
	But obviously subject thereto that we first see the document and just see the context in which it's put.  So, let's go on.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we then wait for this document then.
	It appears that they want to see it before you deal with it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I think that's not an unfair request, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we adjourn until....

GEORGE BIZOS: Can I put the question quickly in relation to the contradiction, so to get that out of the way?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you.
	If you look at the bottom of page 46 and the top of page 47 of the applications, I don't intend dealing with what is at the bottom of 4.4, but on top of page 47
	"Coming from the databases, an image can be created of who was responsible for the unrest and public violence in the Eastern Cape.  Political activists are hereby identified as well as prioritised."
	When you made this application, and when you deposed to this affidavit that Mr Mhlawuli's identification and prioritisation would be an issue in this case.

MR J VAN ZYL: I knew that all the activists would matter in this case, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, a direct answer would just be "yes".  You knew that Mr Mhlawuli's identification and prioritisation would be an issue in this case?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now why would you not tell us then that your identification and prioritisation had not in his case, come out of the database from a  pile of papers on your desk?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I think that I have mentioned that we had actually compiled a list of names right from the start that we knew of. This database just confirmed the information because it was intensified.