Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: 1 and the one that has just been handed in, should be

<UNKNOWN>: 2 .

MS GOZA: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairperson and members of the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee, beforethe proceedings proceed in the line of questions, could I be permitted to re-examinethe second applicant, Mr Mlambisa in relation to the aspect that was raisedby

<UNKNOWN>: dv De Jager concerning the political objective? It was raised yesterdayMr

<UNKNOWN>: hairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may do so.

MS GOZA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just remind him he is under oath.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May Ijust interject, Ms Goza, to remind Mr Mlambisa that he is still under oath.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: (still under oath)

MS GOZA: Mr Mlambisa,you are a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , are you?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, that is correct.

MSGOZA: What are the objectives of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ? Mr Mlambisa, I am speaking to youin English, there is an interpretation for you. If you feel more comfortable,please feel free to talk in your vernacular.

<UNKNOWN>: an we start again.

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was the armed wing of P

<UNKNOWN>: . It was formed to overthrow the White governmentbecause the European Whites took our land from our people.

MS GOZA: Doyou associate yourself with the objectives of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes,I do.

MS GOZA: If you associate yourself with the objectives of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ,how do you understand your involvement in the St James incident?

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: had its own

<UNKNOWN>: ommanders. I am involved in the St James massacre becauseI took orders from my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander. I felt happy in that operation, the St Jamesoperation.

<UNKNOWN>: an you please explain what you mean when you saythat you were happy?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: To explain that we were working underorders of our

<UNKNOWN>: ommanders. It was an operation that will liberate

<UNKNOWN>: fricans, sothat we can be in democracy.

MS GOZA: Now that you know that so manypeople were killed in that incident, how do you feel?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: NowI feel very bad and I would like the people who were in the church, today toforgive us because at the time we were fighting.

MS GOZA: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Mr Mlambisa, when did you start training with

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: In 1990.

<UNKNOWN>: nd what form did your trainingtake?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Military training.

<UNKNOWN>: nd what didyou learn in that military training?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: How?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How to do what?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: There are many things done in the

<UNKNOWN>: rmy.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Were you trained in the use of weapons?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes,that is correct.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Were you trained in how to plan attacks?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, we were trained for that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Were you trainedthat it was important to plan attacks and that all attacks should be well planned?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I see in the attackon the St James church, you were instructed to be the driver of the vehiclethat would be used? Was there any specific reason why you were chosen as thedriver?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, there was a reason.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Whatwas that reason?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: The unit on this attack had no driver, theydecided to take me to be their driver.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Had you had specialtraining in driving?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did youknow that the unit in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town had no driver?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I got thisinformation when I met the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander of the operation, the late Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ommissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: I think part of the question really is why did they specifically have to goall the way, wasn't he in Umtata?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: In Umtata.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why did they have to go all the way to Umtata from

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town specificallyto come and take you as a driver?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I wouldn't know that, becauseI was just following orders from my

<UNKNOWN>: ommanders. The reason for that, I am notaware of it.

<UNKNOWN>: ould you give us the name of the person again,I am afraid I didn't get it, from the late, who was it?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Whichone, because there are two people who are deceased?

JUDGE WILSON: Wellyou said you got information that there was no driver from the late somebody.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Please repeat your question sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Did anybodymake a note of it, can somebody else tell me what the name was?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sichomiso Nonxuba.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I takeit that it was also part of your training that when an attack was to be planned,one should go and have a look at the place where the attack would take placeand plan the attack properly as to how it would happen there?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It is not so.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why is that not so? Is that not part of properplanning?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I was not a

<UNKNOWN>: ommander of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: at the time.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE I think you are misunderstanding my question, I am not sayingdid you go and plan the attack, what I am saying were you not trained duringyour training that if one is to command an attack, it is important to go andhave a look first at the place where the attack will take place, so that youcan plan how it will happen there?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, can I alsounderstand your question.

<UNKNOWN>: re you saying if one has to command an attack orparticipate in an attack?

CHAIRPERSON: If one has to plan.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: My question perhaps should be rephrased, that is an important part of planningan attack that the site of the attack would be visited to ascertain how theattack will take place there? In the ordinary course that that would be a normalpart of the training?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I don'tclearly understand the question.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Okay, what I am askingyou is was it part of your training, did they teach you in training that whenan attack is planned, it is an important part of that planning to go and lookat the place where the attack will happen to plan how the attack will take placethere?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I was not trained in that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Yousaid you were told that it was important to plan attacks. How then was thisplanning going to take place, how did they tell you that you were to plan attacks?

JUDGEWILSON: Were you taught at all how to plan attacks or were you merely taughthow to carry out orders?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: The

<UNKNOWN>: ommanders would come to theunits on the ground and they would give us the sketch and they would give usinstructions to follow. That is how we were trained.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry,what sketch are you talking about, would that be the sketch of the intendedobject of an attack?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, it was not about the sketch of theattack, it was the way of an operation. Even after the liberation, we were taughthow to protect our country from another country, if the country is to attackSouth

<UNKNOWN>: frica again.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It may be that you were not specificallytrained or told in training that some planning must take place, but you area trained soldier of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , wouldn't you expect some surveillance to take placefirst and some planning? Not necessarily by yourself, by somebody else givenyour military knowledge and training?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Things like what?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Wouldn't you expect that prior to an attack and as part of training,there will be some surveillance etc, planning, visiting the place and so on?

CHAIRPERSON: To identify that target, to see where it is situated, how best to approach it,matters of that kind?

<UNKNOWN>: s far as I know, it was happeningin the ranks of

<UNKNOWN>: PL