Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR RICHARD: He does not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not quite what he said is it?  As I recollect what he said is: "What I remember is that I telephoned there.  However, if people say they saw me there, I can neither agree or disagree."  He ...(indistinct) to say he remembers telephoning ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: He purports to say he remembers telephoning there, but he says: "it's a long time ago and if other people say they saw me there, well ..."

MR RICHARD: Very well.  When you telephoned, what did you do, did you get through to somebody?

MR TSHABALALA: It is obvious that I did speak to someone and that person said Sicelo was not present.

MR RICHARD: Did you leave a message?

MR TSHABALALA: I asked them that if they see him he should get into contact with me.

MR RICHARD: How often did you telephone?

MR TSHABALALA: There is a noise in my headset.

MR RICHARD: How often did you telephone the DPSC?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Was it more than once?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Did the deceased contact you in response to your messages?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not remember.

MR RICHARD: Now we turn to your amnesty application which is at page 13 of the bundle, and in that bundle on a number of occasions you say
"Refer to Silver's statement"
or:
"Refer to commander, refer to commander"
What do you mean by those statements?  And example is at page 16 at paragraph (b).  The question there that you filled in - page 16, paragraph (b):
"Your justification for regarding such acts, omissions or offences as acts, omissions or offences associated with a political objective"
Your answer is:
"Refer to Silver's statement"
What do you mean by that?

MR TSHABALALA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR RICHARD: You have a bundle in front of you, the pages are numbered.  Page 16 in answer to a question appearing at paragraph 10(b) you make the statement
"Refer to Silver's statement"
What do you mean by that?

MR TSHABALALA: Are you trying to get me to explain what I meant by the statement?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

MR TSHABALALA: I was trying to say that: please refer to the statement made by Pat, on answering this particular question.

MR RICHARD: Now if you go to page 10 of the bundle, and there is a three page statement, is that the statement that you're referring to?

MR TSHABALALA: No.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, I heard you say "no", was that your answer?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's what I said.

MR RICHARD: Then what statement are you referring to you?

MR TSHABALALA: Page 6 of the bundle, (b).

MR RICHARD: You're referring to paragraph (b) as at page 6?  Now when you took the oath to your application, did you intend to imply that those three points listed in paragraph (b) at page 6 are correct?

MR TSHABALALA: The problem I have with your question is that you are very broad.  What I was trying to say here was that you should refer to the statement because I had seen it when it was submitted, and in this statement Silver is explaining, giving reasons why this took place.  And because I only learnt of the reasons after the incidents had occurred that is why I put that statement in my application.

CHAIRPERSON: When you made your statement were you assisted in making it?

MR TSHABALALA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you shown the commander's application?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I'd seen it before.

CHAIRPERSON: Who showed it to you?

MR TSHABALALA: I requested from him that he should show it to me.

CHAIRPERSON: And he did so?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: And it's after you'd seen him you filled in yours?  You filled in yours after you'd seen his application?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you agree with his statement?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I would say so.  I don't know whether you want me to explain further.

ADV SANDI: Mr Richard, which part of the statement by Silver do you want to draw his attention to?

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't say the statement, he says he agreed with his application.

ADV SANDI: No, I'm referring to Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Well the witness in answer to my question, if I heard the answer correctly, referred us to paragraph 10(b) which appears at page 6 of the bundle.  There he refers to a statement
"I discovered that he was a police informer working with the MK cells I commanded."
That's what Mr Dube says, but that's the paragraph that I understand the witness to be referring us to.

CHAIRPERSON: This was all what Mr Dube had told you after the deceased had been shot, was it, that these had been the reasons?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Now in the paragraph that you refer us to, it also says
"Please find attached copy behind this amnesty form."
Was the document headed:
"Statement sworn under oath"
then attached to what you were shown?

MR TSHABALALA: No.

MR RICHARD: Now when you made your application for amnesty, did you believe that you were supporting and corroborating what Dube said in his application?

MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: When you put in your application and signed the form before a Commissioner of Oaths, did you or did you not believe that you were corroborating and supporting Mr Dube's application?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I was explaining that with regards tot he statement in paragraph B.

MR RICHARD: Now were you present when Clive Makhubu gave evidence this morning?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I was present.

MR RICHARD: Do you agree or disagree that at some point that evening he came to your house and said "come with me", and didn't explain.  You heard the evidence, do you agree with what he said?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, he had telephoned before that I should wait for him.

MR RICHARD: When he came to your house did he explain where you were going or why you were going?

MR TSHABALALA: No, he did not explain.

MR RICHARD: When was it that you first became aware that the deceased, your friend was about to be executed?

MR TSHABALALA: I did not have knowledge thereof, I just saw it when it happened.  I did not have prior information that he was going to be killed.  I only got the explanation thereafter.

MR RICHARD: So that meant that until the previous applicant pulled out his weapon and shot your friend, you didn't know what was happening?

MR TSHABALALA: What do you when you say "what was happening"?

MR RICHARD: You say that you had no knowledge that Sicelo was about to be executed.  And then, I'm extending it one step further, you became aware when you saw Clive Makhubu shoot him.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I saw that happening.

MR RICHARD: Did you simply watch the execution or did you try and stop it or ask for an explanation?

MR TSHABALALA: It happened quickly.

MR RICHARD: What was the effect on you?

MR TSHABALALA: I was shocked and disappointed, but I was certain that I would get an explanation about what was happening.

MR RICHARD: Who gave you the explanation?

MR TSHABALALA: It was Pat.

MR RICHARD: What was his explanation, what did he explain to you?

MR TSHABALALA: He explained that he had a problem with Sicelo.  He said he knew that he was an informer and he then gave details that Sicelo had been following him, keeping him under surveillance and he also explained that when he was arrested he had certain weapons on him and he had been released on the same day, and also that when he questioned him about these things, he admitted that indeed he was an informer.

MR RICHARD: When you say "weapons", what precisely did Mr Dube say?  "He had certain weapons" was what I heard you say, what weapons?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, he did explain the kind of weapons.

MR RICHARD: What sort of weapons did he explain?

MR TSHABALALA: He said it was a Makarov pistol and an F1 handgrenade.

MR RICHARD: And these were with him when?  What did Mr Dube say?