Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I know that it is hearsay, but I must put it to you and you'll say that it's hearsay upon hearsay, but it does not matter for my purposes at this stage but I must put to you what one of the persons associated with the CCB, of which you were the Head, said at bundle B page 131, Mr Chairman.  Will you please read the bottom of page 130.
GEN WEBB
"Shortly after the Dullah investigation, Louie gave me an order to go to Cape Town.  I had to look for a Coloured man Isgak, and make contact with him.  I found Isgak at the Basement night-club and befriended him.  He later gave me a contact number in Woodstock.  I gave it to Louie.  I was curious about the order and asked Louie about it."

GEORGE BIZOS: Carry on on the next page please.
GEN WEBB
"He informed me that they knew about the fact that Isgak was good friends with a prominent UDF woman.  She was a black woman and had knowledge about secret UDF meetings.  They wanted to bribe Isgak with the purpose of him convincing the black woman to take a bomb into one of the meetings.  He said a certain Oliver usually attended the meetings and that they wanted him dead.  He said that they to destroy the whole meeting hall.  He also said that the production teams usually attached bags of nails to the limpet mines for greater efficiency.  He further mentioned that the UDF often made use of the Cape Youth Congress hall and that it was there that they wanted to plant the bomb."

GEORGE BIZOS: Now in a subsequent affidavit Mr Barnard says that Louie was van Zyl.

MR MARTINI: That's not correct, Chairperson.  Mr Bizos must ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, ..(indistinct) corrected myself.  I have a person next to me who gives me the instructions Mr Chairman.
	We will correct it, you don't have to get excited.  The record will - he didn't tell me, I've just become rather accustomed to ...
	In the affidavit Mr Chairman, - we'll find it.  I wasn't too far wrong, but let us just put the words of the affidavit rather than explanations.
	And you know who is Isgak is ...(end of side A of tape)

EDWARD WEBB: It's a Coloured man from the Cape.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Hardien?

EDWARD WEBB: I think it's Hardien.

GEORGE BIZOS: The man sitting together with the people applying for amnesty, from time to time, who took this bomb into the Early Learning Centre?  That's the man.

EDWARD WEBB: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Now what do you say in relation to the policy of the CCB about killing people and mass?  The number of people with one bomb?

EDWARD WEBB: This was the first bomb planted by the CCB, so I don't know what mass bombs you're referring.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, not mass bombs, to cause mass damage.

EDWARD WEBB: This was the first bomb that exploded.

GEORGE BIZOS: That we know of.  But the question is, what would have been your attitude if you had a meeting of fifty, say of the UDF leaders in one room and you could get somebody to go in with a doctored ..., would you have authorised it?

EDWARD WEBB: Once we are starting with ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Hypothetical matters.

EDWARD WEBB: ... going into the realm of hypothesis, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well let's deal with the facts deposed to by one of the persons associated with the organisation ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, maybe - it mustn't be described as facts, those are allegations by a certain person, it cannot be described as facts.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) about what this person says, that one of the ways of the CCB killing people, was to wrap nails round a limpet mine?

EDWARD WEBB: I'm not aware of that at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you agree that it can have a devastating affect on people that happen to be in the room?

EDWARD WEBB: Our previous enemies use it like that, it's a very effective way to make an ordinary mine an anti-personnel mine.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just check something?
	Did you say it was something that your enemies used?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.  They have used it before.

MR LAX: I mean it's a fairly well known way of increasing the effectiveness of handgrenades and mines and all sorts of other explosive devices.

EDWARD WEBB: It is to boost the anti-personnel capacity.

MR LAX: Yes, absolutely, to create more shrapnel basically.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.
MR P DU PLESSIS(?): Mr Chairman, perhaps just to stop the speculation we should refer to the statement by Mr Pieter Steenkamp in the same bundle, wherein I can find no traces that - he certainly did not state that he found nails etcetera.  What he did find he calls "vermoedelik" part of the limpet mine.  He doesn't say that he found any nails on the scene.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct) what the place looked like, Mr Chairman, by witnesses who will give evidence.  Mr Chairman, I don't want to read out the ...(intervention)

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may we hear who those witnesses are, because we are entitled to know what witnesses will give evidence and what the allegations are against us.  That is not only what was agreed at the pre-trial meeting, but that it also in terms of the administrative law as I understand it.  So if Mr Bizos intends calling witnesses who will say that, let him tell us who that witness is going to be and what he's going to say.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not unfair that.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct) some evidence in relation to it, Mr Chairman.  I am not prepared to disclose their names or the effect of the evidence of these people, I merely want to put to the witness that this was done and he has given evidence.  I am not - it's not a trial where I have to say specifically who is going to do what.  We had an inspection in loco, I have had discussions with people who were there shortly after the event and we will take statements and we will submit them in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Wessels said was that it was an agreement, a pre-trial agreement that this procedure would be followed, that ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Mr Chairman, in due course it will be.  In due course it will be.  The information came to my notice Mr Chairman, at the time of the inspection in loco, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: As long as there's a reasonable notice.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh yes of course, Mr Chairman, we will not take anybody by surprise.  We have had certain consultations, we are not ready to - we have been busy with this, we have completed our work, but they will be the first to know, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I'm sure that will be - I suppose that will be the local Athlone bomb expert, because we have a statement by a bomb expert who was at the scene shortly after the explosion, in this bundle B.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)  May I proceed please?  Mr Chairman, in relation to who Louie was, I merely want to refer to bundle B on pages 93 to 94 in which Mr Barnard indicates - 94 to 95, indicates that Louie was van Zyl, Mr Chairman.  No, Mr Chairman what he says is by inference, he says that - well you'd better say what he says, because I'm getting conflicting ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, can I just clarify the situation?  Mr Barnard made an earlier statement and a subsequent statement.  In the earlier statement he says
"I blamed certain things on Louie."
Louie is the codename for someone by the name of Lafras Luitingh, who was his handler.  In the subsequent statement at the page reference Mr Bizos referred you to, he says:
"Where I refer to the Early Learning Centre bomb incident I want to tell you I want to correct the situation.  The source of the information that I had was not Louie, alias Lafras Luitingh, my source of information was Slang van Zyl."
That's what he says.

CHAIRPERSON: In the statement?  This is B94 and 95?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, that is the subsequent statement in which he says he wishes to correct himself.