Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

MANDLINKOSI ENOCH GITAM MNISI: Yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you feel about what you did?

MANDLINKOSI ENOCH GITAM MNISI: At the moment what I did was bad but I was forced by the situation prevailing at the time but it was bad because people died and some people were injured and some of the people were being harassed and the people have lost their properties and a lot of children were left as orphans and some other people couldn't get education because of those things.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree that whatever the problems were, the deaths of people were unacceptable?

MANDLINKOSI ENOCH GITAM MNISI: It was unacceptable but on the other side of the coin by trying to protect yourself that would lead to the death of a person, yes it was unacceptable but when you look at it, even the people who were working for the judiciary system were in favour of some groups therefore that used to be in your hands to say how to protect yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think we should continue with that type of culture?

MANDLINKOSI ENOCH GITAM MNISI: Here today here in this new South Africa that's unacceptable more especially here and the people are not supposed to be harassed.  The political parties are not supposed to be dominant among others.  There should be some tolerance, political tolerance.  That is what is going to make people live in peace.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you prepared to participate in any mechanism as a starting point to restore the fibre of this community irrespective of political affiliations and irrespective of what has gone by?

MANDLINKOSI ENOCH GITAM MNISI: Yes I am prepared.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you're excused.

MANDLINKOSI ENOCH GITAM MNISI: I would like to say something, I would like to apologise to the families.  The families of the Police and the families of the Black Cat members who were injured at the time.  I was forced by the political situation, I had no alternative but today I would like us to turn to a new page and we must know that today it's the beginning of the new era where we are going to tolerate each other.  We become brothers and sisters and go on with life.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel I suppose that brings to an end all applicants?

MR PATEL: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black have you got any further evidence?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I just wish to indicate that to clarify a very defined and definite issue relating to the instructions given to the STU by Mr Gushu, I propose to call Mr Gushu just to set out the situation.  There appear to be two conflicting versions of the nature of the instruction given, one version of Mr Livingstone Lukhele and the other one by Mr Bongani Khaba and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How is that going to help your case?

MR BLACK: As far as Mr Gushu's concerned I may state from the bar, I've consulted with him and if it's going to speed -I don't want to give evidence on his behalf but he's prepared to testify that he did give a general instruction as ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He did that, he testified to that.

MR BLACK: No - yes but Mr Khaba says that he was given a specific instruction to attack a specific person and Mr Gushu's instructions to me are that he within the ambit of his mandate he did set up the STU's, he confirms that Khaba and Livingstone Lukhele were members of the STU which he addressed and he gave them a mandate to - whatever it is - stabilise the situation as best as they saw fit.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black if you're going to call Mr Gushu you're just going to clutter up the record and make our job more difficult because Mr Gushu has already testified.

MR BLACK: Yes - no ....[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And if he's going to come give any other type of evidence then that's going to be to his detriment, not so?

MR BLACK: No he won't, he's not going to deviate from his original evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's the point in calling him then?

MR BLACK: Well he's prepared to just state that he will accept responsibility for any actions carried out by the STU's which he established and in whatever vicarious liability may flow from that he is prepared - he would ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think you safely assume that we will when necessary do that and approach it that way which brings me to the problem raised with you previously and that's the last time I'm going to mention it because then the matter's in your hands.  In our view there's a definite conflict of interest between what Khaba says and what Gushu has not said.  I'm not too sure what you've got in mind how to reconcile the two but if you are going to have to argue that I'm going to believe one of your clients and not believe the other then there is a problem.

MR BLACK: Well this is the reason for me wanting to call Mr Gushu because ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How is that going to solve your problem, Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Mr Gushu would be able to say as I've said that the instruction that was given to Livingstone and Mr Khaba was given on the one occasion, he at no time gave a separate instruction to Mr Khaba.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Khaba says he did, not so?

MR BLACK: Yes well that's his interpretation of the general instruction that was given.  The interpretation was to take out the leaders and he, Mr Khaba, knew that Obed was one of the leaders.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you feel you're in between two stools?

MR BLACK: I don't believe ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps I may just point out perhaps you're standing in one of them?

MR BLACK: With respect Mr Chairman there was one instruction given where at the establishment of the STU how Khaba interpreted that as far specifics ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We've got that evidence, what do we do with it?
How can you call Mr Gushu to tell us what Khaba interpreted?

MR BLACK: No well he can't but he can confirm that he did give that general instruction to the STU's.

CHAIRPERSON: He's testified to that and we'll accept that this is his evidence.

MR BLACK: And that he can say that he did not give a specific instruction that Mr Obed Nhlabathi be eliminated.

CHAIRPERSON: And Khaba says he didn't.

MR BLACK: Well then that's how Mr Khaba saw the issue.  I don't believe there's a real conflict in the real issue ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well I've mentioned it to you and that's it.

MR BLACK: But Mr Gushu would apply if necessary for any - and accept responsibility for any liability which - in respect of the death ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you expecting he wants to make an application in the respect of Obed?

MR BLACK: Well if he's going to be held responsible for Mr Obed's death then he is prepared to accept that responsibility and he will ask for Amnesty in respect of that specific ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No but Mr Black it doesn't work like that.  I or this Committee grants or refuses application for amnesty full stop.  We're not expected to assume or to deduce applications.  Those applications must be before us.

MR BLACK: Well my - the evidence of Mr Gushu and I don't know if it came out clearly in his evidence that he accepts responsibility in respect of any specific incidence ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It did come out.

MR BLACK: ... carried out by STU's within the mandate of STU's and within the mandate of the STU's and in that respect he would ask for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we can approach it depending on what you say in your heads.   The problem is that there's a factual difference in the evidence and I leave it at that.

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel do you intend calling any further evidence or witnesses?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman there may be one crucial witness with regard to the incident of Mrs Zini Shongwe but he too is an applicant for a future hearing.  I'm not sure to what extent this Committee will take into account his evidence at the future hearing and whether it's necessary for me to lead him or not.