Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-15

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mudau, what language would you prefer to use?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: Chief Venda.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, have you any objects to the taking of the oath?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: No objection.

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: (sworn states)

MR NDOU: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mudau, you are also an applicant in this matter and you have signed an affidavit.  If you look at the last page that there is a signature appearing thereon, is that your signature?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: Yes, it's mine.

MR NDOU: Do you agree that this affidavit may be handed in as your evidence?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: Yes, I agree.

MR NDOU: Is there anything that you wish to add to the affidavit?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: No.

MR NDOU: That is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you would like to amend in this affidavit?

MR NDOU: (Indistinct), we're satisfied, I've consulted with him, we're quite satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, the first two affidavits, is it not possible to rectify them in the meantime, that these Deponents can go the police station now to...(intervention)

MR NDOU: And have them stamped?

CHAIRPERSON: Whatever, you rectify - there are problems in it and I...(intervention)

MR NDOU: We'll definitely do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well here, you had better take the...(intervention)

MR NDOU: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou.

MR NDOU: Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee is in agreement that every page must also be initialled by the Commissioner of Oaths.  I see Mudau's one is not...(intervention)

MR NDOU: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Or Rerani also.

MR NDOU: Oh, let me hand in the ones that have been - apparently they were skipping others, these ones have been done, like the one I have.

ADV SIGODI: The Commissioner of Oaths.

CHAIRPERSON: The Commissioner of Oaths.

ADV SIGODI: (Indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: These have been done but the Commissioner of Oaths must also initial it.

MR NDOU: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't they do it with - is Rerani next?

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The person that is going to run down to the police station better wait till these two are finished or whoever.  Then while you are arguing, they can go see to this.  Yes, Mr Van Rensburg?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mudau, do you know what a petrol bomb is?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: Yes, I know.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is it not so that on the day that the deceased was killed, you were in possession of a petrol bomb?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: Yes, I was having it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I have no further questions to this witness, your worship, on the basis that the allegations as far as these pertain to his motivation for the attack on that day is at this stage still in dispute.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't had a chance to read these documents but has he conceded that he was in possession of a petrol bomb?

MR VAN RENSBURG: It was in fact one of the facts found during the criminal trial.

CHAIRPERSON: But I'm talking in his affidavit?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you say in your affidavit that you were in possession of a petrol bomb?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: I might have just left it out.

CHAIRPERSON: Not might, you did.  I'm asking why.

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: Maybe I didn't think about it properly.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) whether you wanted to make any amendments or add anything, why didn't you then do that?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: I didn't think about it.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) petrol bomb?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: I threw that petrol bomb over the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: It was on that day of the (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why?  Why did you throw it at the house?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: I was burning the house.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no decision to do that, wasn't there?  You went there with a petrol bomb.

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: It was by the time when the deceased was starting to fight with the people.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) to fetch a petrol bomb.

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: I don't know if people are in the know of what is  a petrol bomb, can I be allowed to explain?

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) what a petrol bomb is.  I know it for years.  The point of the matter is all I'm asking you is on your way to the deceased's house, were you in possession of a petrol bomb or did you only go fetch it after you arrived there?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: It was in my possession?

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) went there?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct).

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: About 12h00.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) intend to do with this petrol bomb?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: I was just having it.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) what?  People don't carry petrol bombs for nothing.

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: It was just because something that I was used in holding it.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) you serious, don't talk nonsense to us.  Why were you in possession of a petrol bomb?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: I was suspected that maybe on our arrival there, after negotiating, if the deceased did not understand, then if a fight broke, then I will throw it in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why are we suffering to get that kind of answer?  It's a perfectly understandable answer that, instead of coming to tell me that you carry it because you're used to carrying petrol bombs.  I've yet to see people carrying petrol bombs like they carry packets of sweets or money or knives.

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: I apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) help your case when you say things like that.  So you in particular knew there was a possibility and I must say you have come closest to the reality and probabilities.  You knew that he was likely to resist and therefor you had this petrol bomb with you, just in case, correct?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: Yes, it's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you foresaw the possibility that if that happens, he can die.  Not so?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: That didn't come to my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but when they started throwing stones and you would throw the petrol bomb, it must have crossed your mind 'He can die now' not so?

PUMELANE LAWRENCE MUDAU: Yes, the fight was now serious.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, did I ask you if you wanted to ask any questions?

MS PATEL: No, you didn't honourable Chairperson but, I don't, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, do you have any re-examination?

MR NDOU: No, none.

ADV SIGODI: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED