Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MARY BURTON: Thank you, Mrs Sokupa. I know it has been very, very hard for you to tell the story, and you have shown us what a terrible day and how you were really driven, distracted by all the things that happened to you on that day.  I just want to go back and ask you a few questions, if you won't mind. You have explained to us that you were a member of the UDF and in support of your organisation,  you went to the funeral.

MS SOKUPA: That is so.

MARY BURTON: And then you said that you were all told to go away from the funeral. Was that by the marshals, were they the ones who said you must leave?

MS SOKUPA: We were told that the marshals and all the other men who were there, I can't say who it is exactly, who gave the instruction.

MARY BURTON: And then you went home and your husband was at home, and was he politically involved, was he a member of the UDF too?

MS SOKUPA: Yes, he was.  He was a member of the UDF.

MARY BURTON: And you said that when you told him what had happened, that he thought that maybe if he had been there he might have been able to prevent the death of Mr Siqasa.  Is that right?

MS SOKUPA: Yes, he said this would not have happened if I were there. He would have stopped this because - he would have.  He believed he would have stopped them because the youth used to respect him, because they used to hold their meetings at our place and they always listened to what he said, and I am sure if he were there and he had talked to them, they would have listened to him. That's why I think he felt that he could have stopped them, because they respected him a lot.

MARY BURTON: I find it very interesting that you are telling us this. Because sometimes the story of this terrible time in KTC is shown that on the one side it was the fathers and on the other side it was the young people, the young Maxabani, and yet, you and your husband were not young people, and you were respected leaders in the community. But your political affiliation with the United Democratic Front puts you on one side, almost whether you wanted it or not, you were there.
 And then when the patrol came around and your neighbours were warning you to run away, your husband refused to run away.  He had no sense of having done anything which would make him guilty, which would make him have to run away.

MS SOKUPA: Yes, that is so, he didn't see anything, any reason for running away.  He didn't see no reason, because in his thoughts he was sure that the people who did that, were known.  He thought they would be known and he thought that he had never been to the funeral and he thought that would be known that he was not there.

MARY BURTON: But in fact, what was happening by then was the feelings were so strong and the anger was so great that it didn't really matter if you were there or not.  The sides had been taken and you almost had to choose to take sides and to suffer accordingly.

MS SOKUPA: Yes, if you were a member you would be affected, but he simply believed because he was not there, he would not be affected by the revenge, and when I said we should run away he said you can't run away from death, you can never run away from death. That is what he was saying.  And then there were of course other comrades who didn't run away, like Zodwa, for instance. I too, didn't intend to run away, but I could understand how he felt, that he should not go. We didn't think he could because we never thought we should run away.

MARY BURTON: And so he lost his life, you lost your husband, you lost your house, you very nearly lost your own life.  At least your neighbours had helped you to get your children to safety.  But we understand that your life was never the same again and the support of your organisation still couldn't do anything to bring back your husband.

MS SOKUPA: That is so.

MARY BURTON: We really want to say how grateful we are to you for coming.  You had to be very brave at the time when you faced those who were attacking you and you have to be brave again to come and speak today about what happened.  But it is very helpful to us to understand that things were not simple, that people, even for instance, amongst your neighbours you had people who were part, seen as part of the  side that was supporting the councillors.  And that you lived all close together and that people were often forced into taking one side or another in the conflict. And that even when they tried to help each other, it wasn't always possible to do so.  So we want to thank you very much for having come here today and told us your story and explained to us the situation in which you lived at the time. Chairperson, I don't know if people want to ask more questions.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Mary.  Glenda Wildschut?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Mamma, could you please tell us what has happened to your children since your husband died, how have they been since his death?

MS SOKUPA: (Indistinct - speaker's mike not on) ... who  working.  They are being supported by my daughter.  She is educating them, but her salary is very small.  One of them is doing Std 9 in Umtata, the other one is doing Std 6 here, but the other one is doing Std 6, the girl. The other one is doing Std 1.  She is studying at Observatory. They are all being supported by one person because I am unemployed and I am unable to get a job.  I just survive on selling, on doing some small business for myself.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Have the children ever told you how they are feeling about the way in which your husband died, their father died and how that has affected their, how it has affected them emotionally?

MS SOKUPA: They talk about it, and they sometimes hear about it, people do tell them about how their father died. I remember when I was with comrade Nosapo, when my youngest daughter asked if I know Mr Mkweso, and I said no.  And he said Mr Mongeswe, the one who has a loud hailer.  And she asked if it wasn't the man who killed my father.  And she said that one day when I grow up and I become a comrade, I will also kill him.  Even the eldest also asked me when we were still living in Khayelitsha. She said that we don't have a father and other people are working and we are having a hard time and the other children seem to be happy.   And sometimes we can't go to school because our sister is not always able to help us.   Seemingly they are not happy because they don't have a father and they seem to be having hard living.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: And have you and your family ever been seen by somebody who can help you with your feelings?  Has anybody come to help you in that way?

MS SOKUPA: I have never been helped by anyone.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Glenda.  We thank you very much that you came to tell us your sad story, but now I just want to hand over to the people who are with you, because we are going to call the next witness now.  Sorry, sorry, just one moment.