Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that, or will you confirm that it is correct that the State did intend to call Jimmy Jones as a State witness?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated?

MS COLLETT: Do you remember or can you confirm that the State in the Bahai Faith trial intended to call Jimmy Jones to give evidence on their behalf?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so, the Court sought to use  him as a State witness against me and Africa Tjobane.

MS COLLETT: And do you remember that he didn't come and testify for the State?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember that he refused.

MS COLLETT: M'Lord, at this stage - Mr Chairman, at this stage I wish to hand in a letter which was sent to the Prosecutor in the Bahai Faith case.  It was the intention of the Prosecutor, as the witness has correctly said, to call Jimmy Jones to refute the evidence of obedience to orders which was, the defence which was raised.
	Mr Chairman, a letter was then sent to Mr Christopher who was the prosecutor in that case, which I believe that your, that the members of this Committee should see because I do believe that it is relevant to this Commission and I would ask to hand in a copy of that.  I have shown it to Mr Prior already, he is aware of the letter.
	Now Mr Ncamzana, it's correct that you've seen this before isn't it?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I cannot remember well, unless I can read it or it can be read to me.

MS COLLETT: This is the letter which was sent by the legal representatives of Mr Jimmy Jones saying that he applied for amnesty with other members of high command and that his evidence would not support the State's case, it would in fact destroy it, do you remember that being communicated to you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember that being communicated in Court.

MS COLLETT: And is it also correct that in the Bahai Faith trial there wasn't a single person called from APLA to refute the obedience to orders on the part of the State or by the State?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Are we talking about the person who was going to testify in our favour or in favour of the State?

MS COLLETT: In favour of the State.  There was no commander from APLA that came and testified in favour of the State?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: A highly placed person from APLA who came to give witness was Africa Mphashlele.

MS COLLETT: But is it correct that he came and gave evidence for you in your defence?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now, we don't have a transcript of that evidence before the Commission at this stage but can you remember what he said with regard to the operations, the Bahai Faith operation, did he say that - let me ask you, what did he say about the Bahai Faith action?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What I remember well is that he explained that he got the report back from commander Jimmy Jones about the attack on the Bahai and other places that we had attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt for one moment to say your letter will be Exhibit F.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.
	Now did he tell the Court or did he make a comment as to whether the acts that he referred to, particularly the Bahai Faith matter, seemed to fall within the policy of APLA or not?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Despite me not remembering everything but I can remember that he did not reject the attack as not fitting within APLA policy.

MS COLLETT: And can you remember what he said about the armed struggle being suspended and these attacks having taken place after the armed struggle had apparently been suspended?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I remember.

MS COLLETT: What did he say?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What he said when he was speaking, indeed the armed struggle was suspended but it was not easy for that to be communicated properly or in time with all the soldiers as it first had to go through the commanders in the whole of South Africa and then the commanders to pass that information on to APLA soldiers who are all over South Africa and not in Transkei only.

MS COLLETT: And did he mention that this took a period of time or not?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He said that could take as more, about six months for it to reach all soldiers of APLA.

MS COLLETT: Did he confirm that certain attacks took place after the armed struggle and before the people were, the APLA soldiers were communicated with?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can the question please be repeated?

MS COLLETT: Did he say that there were certain attacks that took place at the hands of APLA after the armed struggle was suspended but before the bases and the commanders had actually received those instructions of the suspension?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: If I remember well he did say that those things can happend, that attacks be carried out because those soldiers or such soldiers had not received such messages about the suspension.

MS COLLETT: Now you've mentioned that TNT was the unit leader, what do you mean by unit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: When I talk about the unit I talk about the group I was with, the group I was moving with to go and attack the places we attacked.

MS COLLETT: So by that do you mean that the unit could have been differently comprised for different attacks?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That can happen that a unit commit or be involved in separate attacks.

MS COLLETT: What is the duty of the unit leader?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is to lead that unit.

MS COLLETT: In carrying out the mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, to carry those operations through and to lead it during the planning stages, to plan the attacks.

MS COLLETT: Now the missions that you were instructed to take, for example the Highgate Hotel mission, the Bahai Faith mission, did you have any say as to whether they were a good idea or to propose alternative missions in their place or did you have to just carry out the missions that you were instructed to carry out?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: To communicate that, those alternatives to whom?, to the unit commander or to the commander who gave those instructions?

MS COLLETT: To anybody.  Did you have a choice in what mission, in the places that you were carry out these missions at or were they, were you simply advised as to where you would carry out a mission or where you were to carry out a mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I could not contradict or perhaps not accept the order given or have questions about it.   After it having been explained to me that the attack, mine was to accept the order as it was given.

MS COLLETT: Were you ever given details about the victims that you were to attack?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What kind of detail?

MS COLLETT: Well, any personal details about them, where they worked, what they did or anything like that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, no such details were given.

MS COLLETT: The initial reconnaissance before a mission was carried out, was that done by the unit who was carrying out the mission or was it done by some other unit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Reconnaissance was done by another unit but the unit that was supposed to carry out the mission was forced to do reconnaissance itself but within the unit the members of the group felt that there is no necesity for any reconnaissance, because they more or a lot about that place, that depends on them.

MS COLLETT: Now you've been referred to an amnesty application that was made by yourself in 1997, it's actually the amnesty application referred to at page 40 of the record and it's an amnesty application regarding the Fort Knox attack, do you remember that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember.

MS COLLETT: Now, you were never tried for Fort Knox, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so, I was never called to Court.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that the amnesty deadline had been extended in 1997?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And is it correct that it was then that you decided to make amnesty for this attack as well despite the fact that there'd been no charges or trial?