Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: Precisely, what I will do is, I will put the proposition set out in this document to Dr Wouter Basson and then hand it over to him to look, because he made some very strong comments about the outbreak of cholera.

MR CILLIERS: I am happy with that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think of course they will reserve their right to say if it is so, but the proposition does not actually emanate from the document?

MR VALLY: There are too many for me to go through all, but I will go through a few.  The document is called Epidemiological Comment published by the Department of National Health and Population Development, for example the November 1990 copy and this is in Afrikaans, it says there were approximately 25 000 confirmed cases of cholera in 1987 in South Africa.
 I talk about the same magazine or extract, dated March 1991, a journal, I beg your pardon, the Journal dated March 1991 and it says on the 7th of February 1991, six provinces in Mozambique were declared as infected areas by the World Health Organisation in the weekly Epidemiological Record, and they list a number of deaths as a result of cholera.
 They even have a table here.  You must warn me when to stop Dr Wouter Basson, when you are convinced that I had ...

MR BASSON: Please go on, I would like to see you hanging yourself, go ahead.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon.

MR BASSON: Please go on, I would like you to finish what you are saying.

MR VALLY: Fine.  There is evidence of cholera outbreaks in Kangwane and there is evidence of cholera outbreaks in Mozambique, and this is in the same Journal, dated January 1992.
 The same Journal dated August 1993, outbreak of cholera in the Hlabiza Health Ward, Zululand.  We have October 1994, the same Journal, the number of cases reflected here from the page I have seen, is something like 1 968 cases.
 Same Journal of October 1993, it says a number of bacteriologically proven cases of cholera reported in the Republic of South Africa on the 1st of August 1982 to 31st of July 1983 by the week, and we've got in Natal alone, 3 767, Eastern Cape, 16, Kangwane 105, Free State 30, Southern Transvaal 159, Northern Transvaal 344, Lebowa 21, KwaZulu Natal, this time it just says KwaZulu, I assume they meant the self-governing territory 3 196, total 7 638.
 Are you satisfied yet, do you still want me to continue?

MR BASSON: That depends on how much time you have to waste.

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, you made an assertion that I was factually incorrect.  I will supply you with these documents right now.

MR BASSON: I stick to my assertion and I would like to tell the Chairperson that I am finding myself in a position now that if you were a final year medical student who gave me this, I would have failed you.
 There is new literature, three weeks ago there was a complete Epidemiological Report on cholera.  I am standing on the facts that I am giving you, there was not an outbreak of epidemic proportions after 1986 in South Africa.  It is evident that Mozambique has always been a cholera area and if you look at what the literature says, those outbreaks of cholera can be taken back all the way to Northern Africa, back to the bacteria that was responsible, it could be traced back to North Africa and you can also find the way that bacteria has walked all through Africa.
 Not one of these outbreaks of cholera is inexplicable.  If Mr Vally made the effort and read further, he would also see that the Department of Health in each of those cases in the old times, they could explain where they were coming from, which tribe was involved and how it ran its course.  So since 1987, according to the newest information, and that is a month ago, which is handed out by the Department of Health, there has not been more than maybe 16, maybe 20 cases of cholera in South Africa annually.
 Mozambique has always been a cholera country after the cholera was brought to Mozambique from North Africa.  So if Mr Vally wants to suggest that I took cholera to Northern Africa in 1980, I would say the project hadn't even started then.
 The history of cholera in Africa is very well described.  This specific cholera cultures to which he is referring, I imagine it must have been 1988, 1989 it can have no relevance to anything which happened in 1983 and even less so, if anything had happened in 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, and once again, I want to conclude by saying that the Department of Health, every case of cholera outbreak was investigated by them to their satisfaction.
 There is not one unsolved case.

MR VALLY: I think this argument is absurd by Dr Basson, because he did not expect us to be prepared for him.  I want to show all those documents which he has, including this last one, signed by the Director General, Department of Health and Welfare, on the 30th of January 1984, which talks about outbreaks of cholera, cholera 1, 2 133, cholera 2, 3 949, cholera 3, 1 264, cholera 4, 489.
 In addition to that, we have got evidence having discussed it with the foremost experts in this country, and I refer to Prof Forder and Prof Margaretha Isaacson, we've got evidence in black and white, issued by the official State agency and for him to now try and contradict that based on his own knowledge, when there are allegations that he was responsible, ultimately for giving instructions for the culture of approximately 260 ml of cholera to be produced, at RRL, which the person who produced it, says could cause a major epidemic, and then to be caught out regarding the outbreaks of cholera as has been shown in these documents, I think he is trying to cover himself Mr Chairman, and I don't have anything further to add on the cholera issue.
 Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I make an objection to his statement that I did not think he would be prepared.  I have just proved that he is not prepared.  There is nothing in these documents which have any connection to the cholera which was cultivated at RRL.
 Those cultures were tested, the genetic composition of those cultures are known and not one of these cases, this last epidemic he is talking about, that is in 1987 and I admitted that, I haven't denied that. That was a South African epidemic, yes, but in 1987 and that is not inexplicable epidemic.  The studies are clear.  I do not know when is the last time he spoke to Dr Isaacson, but I spoke to her two weeks ago and she even then said to me, that she is of the opinion that the reason why there isn't any cholera is because the Defence Force was there to keep the water clean in South West Africa.
 She mentioned how surprised she was about the fact that there had never been cholera in Namibia, so what Mr Vally is now accusing me of, I am not sure, I don't understand.  Everything I am saying, he is confirming.  I told him there was only an epidemic in 1987 and not one after that.
 I also said that there were areas in Africa, but I would like to tell you that each of those epidemics was well investigated and researched.  The WHO was involved as well, because it was a world problem, it is not only an African problem.  
 To insinuate in any way that a human hand had anything to do with these outbreaks in Mozambique or wherever, is nothing but scientific absurdity.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, do you know TRC52 at all, have you seen it before?

MR CILLIERS: At this stage, can I just give a short word of advice with regards to the answer to this question.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether he has ever seen TRC52?

MR CILLIERS: No, if he should answer the question or not.

CHAIRPERSON: There is not question that has been - has he seen it?  Do you want to advise him as to whether he must admit seeing it?

MR CILLIERS: Don't turn my words around.  I want to tell him whether he should answer the question or not.