Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-19

MOSES VELI LLALE: I don't think I recall seeing anybody else.

MR DORFLING: I am not asking you to whether you recall seeing anybody else. Can you recall having heard shots emanating from people positioned on the parapet?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Only the two I have mentioned now.

MR DORFLING: Were there other security guards that you can still recall being present on the parapet at the time of the main shooting?

MOSES VELI LLALE: At the time of the main shooting when it started it was only the four of us. But the person who I am not sure about was Chris but I think at that time he was not there. But the person I remember is Jakwe, Moolman and myself.

MR DORFLING: You have got no picture in your mind as you sit there today of anybody else having perhaps fired shots?

CHAIRPERSON: From the parapet?

MR DORFLING: From the parapet Mr Chair.

MOSES VELI LLALE: No I only remember myself and Moolman which I didn't see him firing. I heard the firing coming on his direction.

MR DORFLING: May I refer you to page 3700 of the record Mr Llale from lines 21 onwards at page 3700 Mr Chair. I will start reading from line 17 at page 3700: -"And you also said that you saw lots of marchers running towards Plein Street. Where was the front of the marchers that you saw running towards Plein Street when you were firing?

WITNESS: More or less towards the middle of King George.

MR DORFLING: 		Did you see anybody else on the parapet firing except for Jakwe?

WITNESS: I did not see anybody shoot except for the shot that I heard from the direction of Steve."

MR DORFLING: 		This refers to Moolman is that correct?

WITNESS: I am referring now to my left where Steve was. I did not see him shoot but I heard a shot coming from that direction in which he was.

MR DORFLING: 		Was that before or after your first shot?

WITNESS: I think I was still recycling the firearm, my firearm when I heard this shot go off.

MR DORFLING: 		So was it Jakwe referring to Mr Molefe, who fired and then Moolman and then you?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR DORFLING: 		Did you see or hear Neo Potsane firing?

WITNESS: It was difficult to say who was shooting but I could hear that firing came from our people because my main concentration was downstairs.

MR DORFLING: 		What other firing did you hear from your people?

WITNESS: I heard about five shots, five or less fired from a pistol from my people. Because you can differentiate between fire from the shotgun or from the pistol.

MR DORFLING: 		Was that on the parapet?

WITNESS: Yes."

MR DORFLING: That was your evidence at the inquest. That you actually heard people from amongst the people positioned on the parapet firing shots with pistols and you said you heard about five shots, five or less shots. Has that slipped your mind today?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Did I mention these people I was referring because I said from my people. I might have been confused because I didn't mention specifically which people.

MR DORFLING: No you were specifically asked was that from the people on the parapet and you said yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: The (...indistinct) the previous question was the identity of the people concerned and we move from the particular to the generalised without forewarning the witness before putting the question. The question was not; did you hear other shots emanating from the parapet. The questions were; who else did you see or hear shooting.

MR TIPP: And Chairperson to be more specific as well. The part that my learned friend, Mr Dorfling just read out says

MR TIPP: "I heard about five shots, five or less fired from a pistol from my people because you can differentiate between fire from the shotgun or from the pistol. Was that on the parapet?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR TIPP: And then to go on:

MR TIPP: "Did you see Chris Lushaba on the parapet?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR TIPP: 		Where was he?

WITNESS: Not far from Steve."

MR TIPP: And Chairperson you will recall the witness' evidence a little bit earlier on when he was recounting the people on the parapet. He said he knew about Jakwe, Moolman and himself and maybe Chris Lushaba as well. He mentioned that a few minutes ago. That is the Chris that is being referred to here.

MR DORFLING: Indeed he mentioned the person. He was specifically being asked whether he can recall having either heard or seen any of the other people from the parapet position having fired any shots. The answer was in the negative. It appears from the record that at the time of the inquest proceedings he testified that he became aware of such shots because he heard these shots and he said it was more or less five or not more than five. That was his evidence. It is in direct conflict with his evidence today Mr Chair.
	Mr Llale can you explain this contradiction?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I think I have to go back to Zulu because maybe we are not on the same par with english. It is better maybe if I explain in zulu. Maybe there will be a difference here.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well give your evidence in zulu.

MOSES VELI LLALE: The question you asked me was that did I see anyone shooting. When I answered I said I saw Jakwe. But Moolman was next to me - I heard the gun shot. The next question was; was there anything that we heard besides the two. I said when I recall very well it will seem like I heard a pistol fire not too far but I did not see anyone. But after the shooting I do remember seeing Chris Lushaba with a firearm in his possession. I was answering that, that I did not see him shooting or shoot but I saw him with a firearm in his possession.

MR DORFLING: Mr Llale I am putting it to you, you are changing your evidence. I specifically asked you whether you became aware of any person having fired from the parapet apart from Mr Moolman, yourself and Mr Molefe. And I made it specifically clear that whether you either heard them or whether you saw them. You must say whether you became aware of such a person. You were quite clear in your evidence that you did not become aware of any such shooting from the parapet. And I asked you whether you were clear as you were sitting there today that you have no recollection in your own mind of that having happened and you said: "No I have got no such recollection."

MR LAX: And in fact Mr Dorfling the words you used where you said: "Do you have no picture of anyone else firing shots?" That was the words you specifically used.

MR DORFLING: Indeed and also the words whether you saw it or actually heard it, whether it came to your knowledge either having seen or having heard it Mr Chair. And the witness responded to that question in the negative.

MR TIPP: No Chairperson with respect the witness said: "I do not recall seeing anybody else."

MR DORFLING: I am not going to pursue this point any further Mr Chair. I am going to leave that for purposes of argument. Mr Llale it is, I am going to contend at the conclusion of these proceedings that the reason why there are these contradictions in your evidence is because you are untruthful. Would you like to comment?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The only thing I will say is that today this Committee I have told them everything that I remember that transpired on that day in question. The lies that you are talking about I don't know as to where you are getting that from

CHAIRPERSON: ... that you were untruthful and you have told us that you are not untruthful what you have told us is what you remember happening?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR DORFLING: Mr Llale in conclusion. I am appearing on behalf of 9 objectors who will if called to give evidence testify that at the time when shots were being fired at the marchers there was no justification for the ANC guards firing shots at them. Would you care to respond to that question?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I won't respond that much but I have talked about what I know so they will also talk about what they know as well.