Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-28

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: I would say, as it was a sacrifice for the struggle, was to have liberation for which we were fighting and then we saw that as a problem in our way as Africans that any obstacle should be removed so that we will be able to be liberated.  What we wanted to achieve was liberation.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr May is there any other thing that you wish to add to your testimony or is that your case?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: For now I would say that is my testimony, except maybe if there are questions.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How many handgrenades did your companion have?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: I don't remember well how many handgrenades were there at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many petrol bombs did you have?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: I had only one petrol bomb with me at that time and one handgrenade.

CHAIRPERSON: So in addition to a petrol bomb you had a handgrenade?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: That is true, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you throw your handgrenade?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: As I explained I didn't throw my handgrenade, I only threw a petrol bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many of you were together when this attack was launched?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: If I remember well we were quite a number because in our unit we were two and then there were other units who took part in another police station to the one we were attacking, there was another unit again which took part in the attack in town.  I think we were six all-in-all.

CHAIRPERSON: Who supplied the handgrenade?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: I did mention that the handgrenades I was given by my commander who is Velile Mxhosana.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Mpshe are there any questions?
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr May in your application if you can just turn to page 11 of your application, at paragraph 10B you have made reference to people like Sebs Pama, Themba Ngaphayo and Tshokolo Gilbert and Lefu, who were these people?  Were they members of your unit?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: Yes that's true, those were members of the unit.

SISI KHAMPEPE: A person like Sebs Pama would that not be Sebilo Pama?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: Yes Sebilo Pama was the chief of staff of Apla at that time.  He was not a member of that unit but he was the chief of staff of Apla.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Themba Ngaphayo?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: He was one of the members of the high command of Apla.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now who were members of your unit?  Can you give us names of people who were in your unit?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: As I explained that in my unit we were two, that was myself and Mxhosana.  And then again there were other people like Lefu who were present.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was Lefu present when you were given instructions to go and launch an attack on - at Mbatu Police Station?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: What I remember is that we met as units.  He was in another unit which was supposed to attack another police station. I found my orders from my commander but he was again in another unit.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: If he was in another unit he wasn't with you at the time when you threw this petrol bomb?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: He was not present at that time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At page 12 at paragraph 11B you state that Lefu was the director of operations.

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: What I tried to explain is shortly, is that the unit which, our unit consisted of two people in our unit as we were two, Mxhosana was the commander of that cell in the attack. Lefu was a member of another unit which is local again.  It seems they were one thing, him and Mxhosana I didn't know as to whether who was senior between the two, but it seems Mxhosana used to contact him time and again.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you got your orders from Mxhosana?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: That is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: You heard that the victim of this attack, that policeman whose name you mentioned was meant to be here as well, or he intended to be here as well, is there anything you are going to say to him if he was here?

LEBOANE JOHN MAY: Briefly what I would say to him if he was here is about my understanding of the situation we are now today is quite different from the situation which we were at that time of this incident.  If we were in that situation I couldn't have regretted.  You understood the situation which we were and we were living in and we were engaging in a war at that time and then we understood that that war was legal to him as he was a person I would ask forgiveness mainly because he's an African I would try - or maybe he's aware that he was serving what kind of a system at that time I was intending to ask forgiveness from him as a person because I was not attacking him as a person.  I didn't know him as Makoloi at that time as I explained that we were trying to dismantle the system, as he knew that's what kind of a system he worked for.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions you wish to ask arising out of the questions?
NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr May, thank you very much.  You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I will call Mr Mxhosana as the next witness.

VELILE MXHOSANA: (sworn states)

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Mxhosana is it correct that you are one of the applicants in this matter?

VELILE MXHOSANA: I do not understand your question Sir.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it correct that you are one of the applicants in this matter?

VELILE MXHOSANA: Yes it is so.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it further correct that during the commission of these acts you were a member of the PAC and Apla and that you were in fact a commander of the unit that committed these acts?

VELILE MXHOSANA: That is true.

MR MTHEMBU: When did you become a member of the PAC and Apla?

VELILE MXHOSANA: I joined the PAC in 1988.  I joined Apla in 1989.

MR MTHEMBU: Is it further correct that on the 14th of December you received certain orders from Apla's high command?

VELILE MXHOSANA: That is true Sir.

MR MTHEMBU: What was the nature of these orders, and where and by whom were they given to you?

VELILE MXHOSANA: I found my instructions from the - directly from the high command.  The instruction was to attack the police.

MR MTHEMBU: Was any reason given to you why you had to attack the police?

VELILE MXHOSANA: Yes it was explained why we were at training that is (...indistinct).  We were shown that the police are the support systems of the oppressive government because the police and soldiers were people who are supposed to be targeted for attacks.

MR MTHEMBU: But was any reason given why they would be targeted for attacks?

VELILE MXHOSANA: I would explain in this way that as we have a big military system and as we have the units, our unit was specifically given that order to attack the police.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mthembu from his evidence it would appear that the police were identified by Apla's high command as a target.

MR MTHEMBU: Now Mr Mxhosana is it further correct that on the 4th of March 1993 you were convicted and sentenced for the following offences; attempted murder; malicious damage to property; illegal possession of machine guns - two charges in fact for that offence, and also the illegal possession of handgrenades, and you were sentenced to an effective sentence of 11 years imprisonment.

VELILE MXHOSANA: That is true.

MR MTHEMBU: And it is further true that you were involved in the launch of this attack, in the planning to launch this attack?

VELILE MXHOSANA: That is true.

MR MTHEMBU: Now can you briefly tell the Committee about this planning of this attack.