Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

MR VAN ZYL: I think one has to have a look here, he was the person who mentioned to me that he had access to the house of Omar, and because of that we progressed in the discussion of "Because you have access to the house of Omar, can we execute the project with a weapon?"  "No, we cannot."  And then I could have told him "Can you possibly obtain some of the tablets."  I cannot recall that it happened that way, but at the end of the day I say that I deny that I spoke any untruths in court and I deny that that version differs from the version that I gave here yesterday.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, you're obviously not telling the truth in State vs Barnard, if regard is had to your version here.  You didn't say to the Court in State vs Barnard, "I can't quite remember whose initiative it was."  Correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: You clearly told the Court in State vs Barnard, whose initiative it was.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so, but it was not a lie but it's not one hundred percent correct.

UNKNOWN: But why is it not a lie, Mr van Zyl?

MR VAN ZYL: Because I have already explain it to you now and unfortunately I cannot explain it any better because you don't want understand what I'm saying.

UNKNOWN: Because your answer doesn't make sense, that's why I don't want to understand it.  You, if you had been in any doubt in State vs Barnard, you wouldn't have said to the Court, in circumstances where you believed as you now say that you do, that's it's highly unlikely that Peaches himself could have come up with this idea of swopping the pills, you wouldn't have told the Court in State vs Barnard, in those circumstances, that it was Peaches' idea.

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, I think I've already answered that question, I cannot qualify myself any better than I have.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  You then say you met with Burger, Basson, someone called Nick, with Botha - was Botha at the meeting?  Just let's look at the reference again.

MR VAN ZYL: It says
"The Co-ordinator, Wouter Basson, Nick Botha and Chappie Maree and another person whom I did not know, attached to the Medical Regiment."

UNKNOWN: You're sure Botha was there.

MR VAN ZYL: I believe so, otherwise I would not have put it in the statement.  If you're asking me today whether he was, I cannot even recall, I go on what is stated in my statement.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but you'll recall the general thread of your evidence is that these things work on a need-to-know basis.

MR VAN ZYL: That is true.

UNKNOWN: So we however have a meeting here discussing a specific project in which Chappie Maree and Kalla Botha are not involved, correct, yet they're attending the meeting to discuss the means of eliminating Adv Omar.  That's why I'm just checking with you whether you're sure.

MR VAN ZYL: Once again this is an inference that you are making.  As I said, there was a meeting where those persons were present.  I under no circumstances say that they were present during the discussion and that they participated in the discussion of the project.  We had a cell meeting, we discuss something, everyone is present and then two persons would discuss something with each other and the other persons would be in another room.  That is what I refer to here.

UNKNOWN: No, no, no, Mr van Zyl, your words are very clear ...(intervention)

MR MARTINI: Mr Commissioner, if Mr Kahanovitz will let the witness finish his answers.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, go to page 105, look what your sentence says
"I discussed the matter of the pills with the Regional Manager, in the presence of ..."
and then you list the names of all these people.

MR VAN ZYL: That is not correct.

UNKNOWN: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: So this statement's not correct?

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, what I am trying to say here is that it is not correct that it was done in the presence of Botha and Chappie Maree and so forth, that was not the practice.  When - the statement is incorrect, I would have only discussed it with Staal and the Co-ordinator, and I know that the person from the Medical Regiment was introduced to me and it was said that as soon as I obtain the pills I have to hand it over to him.  The only other person that I know of who knew of this project of Omar, with regard to the pills, is Nick, but as far as I know Chappie did not have any knowledge and as far as I know Kalla also didn't know, they were not part of the discussions.

CHAIRPERSON: But would there have been any reason to keep the project secret from Chappie Maree and Kalla Botha, seeing that you were all part of the same organisation and probably all friends, know each other very well?  Why hide it?

MR VAN ZYL: That is so, Chairperson, but that was practice.  It was also told to us during our training that my projects I should not discuss with my colleagues, even if these were persons whom I had contact with every day.  There we also used false names.  They wanted to maintain a high level of secrecy and that is what we tried to do.  So they did not have knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Just let me get this clear then, Mr van Zyl, so what you're saying is that there was a meeting where all these people were present, Maree, Botha, Nick, the Co-ordinator etcetera, they were all present, but when you spoke about this particular project the discussion was confined to yourself, Mr Basson was it, the Co-ordinator?

MR VAN ZYL: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Burger.

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The Regional Manager and this person from the medical ...(intervention)

MR VAN ZYL: From the Medical Regiment, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But he's not Nick?

MR VAN ZYL: He's not Nick.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was Nick?

MR VAN ZYL: Nick was also a false name of another person.  This was a person, Chairperson, who was identified.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wouldn't be involved in that discussion about the pills.

MR VAN ZYL: He was specifically - with regard to the pills he was part of the discussion because it is the same Nick whom I received the powder from at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  So when you were talking about the pills, what happened to Kalla Botha and Chappie Maree?  Where they told to put earmuffs on or leave the office and come back, or did you leave the office, what happened with them?

MR VAN ZYL: Chairperson, it is how it happened, either the guys left the room or they must have been in another part of the room where they were talking and we formed a group in another part of the room.  This is how we worked.  The only thing I am saying here is that the submission in my statement that it was done in the presence of these persons, was not factually correct.  If one draws the inference that they knew of it, that inference is incorrect.  That they were indeed present during the cell meeting in the same room, that is true, yes.  And I have no reason to sit here today and to deny that they were not there if they were there and sat in on the project discussion.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Kahanovitz.

MR LAX: Sorry, before you do.
	 I'm just a bit puzzled Mr van Zyl, it seems to me that you guys got all this training, you had all the instructions and when it suited you, you just disobeyed them.  I'll go back to what you said yesterday.  You broke certain rules, you didn't break other rules.  You can't even remember as you sit here today, exactly who was present and who wasn't, you can't tell us at all with any degree of certainty, whether this statement in this affidavit is correct or not correct.  You have no recollection of it.  So I don't understand why you're being so adamant about it.  You broke your own rules when it suited you, you didn't break them when it didn't suit you.  How can you with any degree of absolute certainty in your heart, tell us that this is exactly what happened on that day, when you can't remember this incident at all.  You can't remember this meeting, that's pretty obvious to me.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so, but that is what I testified.