Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: He was actually doing something like if he was piercing him with the pliers.  The victim has his clothes on, he had his pair of trousers on at the time.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry.  Who did you see using the pliers?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: It was comrade Motlana.

MR AMEEN: That is a reference to Mr Mphoreng?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that's correct.

MR AMEEN: Right.

ADV SIGODI: Was he the only one who was using the pliers?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that's the only person that I saw using the pliers at the time.  As I have indicated before I was not stuck to one room, I was moving between the rooms assaulting people.

ADV SIGODI: How many pliers were there, was there only one pair of pliers?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I only saw one pliers.

MR AMEEN: I'm going to give you a description which my clients have given me of how the pliers were used and that description will include that you were one of the people that used the pliers.  Now what they will say is that when they were given the old clothes they were given, with the old clothes, flexible curtain wiring with which to keep their trousers tied to their waists.  Do you agree with that?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I have a problem with that because I did indicate yesterday that I do not remember seeing a naked person in the house.  What clothes were taken off were only the shirts so we were able to see the T-shirts that they had worn beneath.

MR AMEEN: They will also say that once their trousers fell to the ground, after they were ordered to untie this wire, this curtain wire, they were restrained and pliers were applied to their private parts and as they screamed one or other of you would take over from the person applying the pressure and say:  "This is not how it should be done", or words to that effect and then that person would take over applying pressure.  Can you recall that?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I did not see that.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman if I can just note for the record that according to my clients they are not certain whether the third applicant was part of the group that actually fired shots at the spot where the four were killed and on that basis I'm going to stop my cross examination, I'm not going to put any further questions to him.  There would be no further point in that.  If I can just continue on the aspect of the motor cars that were involved in transporting them.  You say that a Renault was used to transport three of the youths to comrade Glen's house?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR AMEEN: And you said that three of them were put into the boot of the Renault?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that's what I said.

MR AMEEN: Now, what kind of Renault was this, was it a four door car or was it a five door hatchback?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: It was a Renault 9 TSE, a sedan.

MR AMEEN: Alright.  My clients will say that there was no Renault there, that they were taken to comrade Glen's house in a Chev and in a Mazda 323?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: They are making a mistake because at the time on leaving the house to the boot, people were blindfolded and they could not therefore testify here that the car was not a Renault.  I was able to see because I was not blindfolded.  They did not see the Renault when we brought them in.  We fetched the Renault from town during which time they were in the house and they could not have seen it when we arrived.  They are making a mistake here.

MR AMEEN: And in what car were they taken from comrade Glen's house to the scene of the killing?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: The one car I know to have been used, if I still remember very well was the very same Renault.

MR AMEEN: Okay.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ameen can I just come in here?  Why were the victims blindfolded?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: We did not want them to see where they were going.

ADV BOSMAN: But you had them in your power now Mr Thandakubona, you had guns, they were badly injured, on the evidence that was given here and you had them fully in your power.  Could they have escaped?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I would say that under such circumstances this is what usually happens.  One can do anything to a person to humiliate him because he is now subdued.

ADV BOSMAN: Am I understanding you correctly then that the blindfolding was part of humiliating them and not so much as to prevent them from seeing where you were going.  Is that what you are saying?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No, both of these acts were actually such that they should not see where we were going and the second question is such that such things happen when people are under such circumstances.

ADV BOSMAN: My difficulty is Mr Thandakubona that my impression was that some of your co-applicants indicated that not all of them were blindfolded and you say they were all blindfolded and I don't understand the reason why because you had them in your power.  It was not necessary to blindfold them.  If you could just try and clarify?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: In so far as the first question is concerned, as to the argument that my co-applicants are saying they were not blindfolded, I did indicate yesterday that when I arrived at the place the Chevrolet had already left with the first group.  I am talking here about the group that left during my presence.  The people who had remained behind were actually waiting for us to bring this other car from town.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know the Renault was used to take them to the scene where they were shot because you were not there, you had gone to Dlamini to go and look for guns?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: The Mazda was not there and the Chevrolet was not used because it had a pressure plate problem and therefore it was not used to take them to the spot and the only car that was available was the Renault.

CHAIRPERSON: So actually, because the Renault was the only car left there which would have been mobile, for that reason you - it's your conclusion that they must have used the Renault?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No that's what the comrades told me when I came back, they indicated to me that the Renault was used to take them to the scene where they were shot.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, thank you.

MR AMEEN: While you were at comrade Glen's house can you recall one of the survivors sitting behind me, or escorting one of them to the toilet in comrade Glen's house?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Which one are you referring to?

MR AMEEN: I'm referring to Mr Kgase.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I think I still remember him from when we were still growing up, at the time I think we were still young.  I saw him for the first time in Jeff's bedroom, he was in the main bedroom at Jeff's house ... (intervention)

MR AMEEN: Can I interrupt you please?  I'm asking you whether in comrade Glen's house you escorted him to the toilet or not, yes or no?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: No, I don't remember that.

MR AMEEN: Because that is what he will say, that you were the one who escorted him to the toilet, that he was not blindfolded at comrade Glen's house and that the two cars used to transport them to the scene of the killing were the Chev and the Mazda.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I might be making some mistakes somewhere, this happened a while ago, it's been long now since it happened.  I can therefore undoubtedly testify that it is otherwise, but as far as I remember Jeff and myself had left to look for a gun in Dlamini and when we came back everything had been done, that is how I remember it.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt you?  You said something in your evidence something which, if I understood you correctly, you conveyed that you grew up with Mr Kgase or known him while you were still young or something to that effect.  Did I misunderstand you?