Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR WILLS: But weren't you afraid that the marks on her body from what must have at least been a fairly serious assault would be apparent and raise suspicion.  It wasn't a natural death.  Let's - surely you don't maintain your position that it was a natural death first o all?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I maintain the position that it was a natural death, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: So you're of the view that the assaults in no way contributed to the death?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not medical, Mr Chairman, I cannot say if it did or if it didn't.

MR WILLS: Yes, that's exactly my point.  You cannot say that it was a natural death.  Not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I cannot.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Surely you wouldn't have been happy for her to have been identified with such injuries?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that's why Bambayi was selected.  There was very much violence happening in that area at the time and anybody walking, or moving in and out of certain areas of Bambayi that didn't belong to certain factions or parties, would be sjamboked and possibly killed, so any markings found on a person in that vicinity.

MR WILLS: So Bambayi was chosen, not because of it's proximity to her home, but because of the political violence in that area?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, that was the second bit, the main portion is that it is in close proximity to the house.

MR WILLS: And when was that decided or discussed?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: du Preez and I discussed that in the vehicle.

MR WILLS: Why didn't you mention it when I asked you earlier, if you can remember now?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I did answer your question.

MR WILLS: I know you answered my question, but you didn't give me this information earlier.  When I asked, I laboured the point because I wanted to find out exactly what was discussed in the car.  I'm putting to you that you're just making up this version now.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, you asked me about what was the discussion in the car and I said to you we discussed that we had to take the body close to the house and then we selected Bambayi.  I answered that question.

MR WILLS: Now are you trained in first aid?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I am, Sir.

MR WILLS: Did you feel her pulse?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR WILLS: So from your own personal position you don't know if she was dead?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, she was dead when I saw her.

MR WILLS: How do you know that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The time span was rather ...(indistinct) by that time.

MR WILLS: How do you know she couldn't have been unconscious?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, she was dead.

MR WILLS: But you didn't even feel her pulse, how can you tell me that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's my presumption.

MR WILLS: It's a presumption and your presumption is based on just your visual observation.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think he was also told that she was, that she had died.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  And the hearsay evidence of Mr Taylor, he was the person who told you that she died.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, he told me so, Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Do you know if he felt her pulse?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I don't know that.

MR WILLS: Do you know if anybody tried to resuscitate her?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I do not know that, Sir.

MR WILLS: You see,  there's a scenario which I must put to you because I'm trying to fit a few things together.  You obviously have seen the photographs and what we believe is the case that at some stage she was shot at the top of her head and killed.  That she might have been, she might have revived somewhere in the car and then you and du Preez decided to just put a quick end to her.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's totally incorrect, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: What firearm do you carry?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: 9mm pistols

MR WILLS: And Mr du Preez?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Also a 9 mm.

MR WILLS: And what is the calibre of the bullet that is used?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: 9 mm.

MR WILLS: And what - sorry, did you have that firearm on you on that day?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: You never change it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WILLS: And did you see that weapon with du Preez?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I did not see it.

MR WILLS: So you can't tell me what weapon he had?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR WILLS: You're just assuming from past experience?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: If you can just bear with me for a minute, Mr Chairperson.  When you inspected the room did you see her handbag in the room?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You obviously didn't carry a handbag to the car with you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WILLS: Did you notice if she had a ring on?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I noticed no jewellery at all.

MR WILLS: You would have noticed had she been wearing panties or not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I wouldn't have noticed, Mr Chair.

MR WILLS: So you didn't notice?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I did not, Sir.

MR WILLS: How far off the road was she dumped?  In metres.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, 15/18 metres off the verge.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could give an indication in this room, Mr Wasserman?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.  From my position to perhaps that other boundary wall behind Jimmy Mbane.  The divider.

CHAIRPERSON: The room divider. Yes.  It's plus minus 15 paces.  It might even be 12, but somewhere around there.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I could just intervene, Mr Wills.  You said that was from the verge?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes. Sir, that's from ...

MR LAX: Not from the tar surface, from the verge?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: From off the road, from the verge.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it was a tar road?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the tar stops and then you have a verge which is normally gravel which varies depending, from one road to another, but normally a metre or two wide and then veld?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying this was - this distance you've indicated was from the edge of the verge, from the veld?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In the veld.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I would estimate from the verge, the edge of the verge in the veld, not the tar.

CHAIRPERSON: So from the edge of the tar you would add on the width of the verge to that distance.  Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: And the terrain, was it grassy, dry?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it was grassy, but shortish grass, not elephant grass, not long grass.

MR WILLS: And flat or undulating?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, flattish Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could indicate the type of grass because shortish, or elephant can cover quite a range of heights of grass.  If you could perhaps indicate with your hand about how high the grass would have been at the place where the body was disposed of?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'd estimate it slightly shorter than the height of this table.

CHAIRPERSON: About 800 mm.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: About here, Sir. sort of.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what would you ...?

MR WILLS: I'd agree, about 700 to 800 mm.

CHAIRPERSON: Say 750 mm, three quarters of a metre high.

MR WILLS: In other words if the body was in that grass, it would be quite difficult to see it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, that grass isn't that long that it's invisible at all.

MR WILLS: Just a couple of aspects on the version of the Vlakplaas operatives.  Coetzer indicates that there was a fight or an argument between Botha and himself regarding Botha's instructions to send Mbane back to the Khubeka household.  Were you aware of that?