Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1999-02-02

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Tyani, it doesn't help us if you speculate so just tell us what you know and what was told to you and that's really what we're interested in.  Leave the rest out, we're not really interested in what you're speculating about, okay?

MR MALAN: Mr Tyani, I'm referring you to page 34 of the bundle where on the 13 January 1988 you prepared an affidavit and near the end of your affidavit you state "I then fired four shots" and the inquest and the post-mortem clearly indicates that there was at least six shots fired into the body of Mr Zokwe.  Where did the other two shots come from?

ALAN TYANI: It is different when the people are fighting.  The way I was trained, I remember I was told that when you are involved in a battle you have to count the bullets that you are releasing but if you are facing a very difficult situation sometimes you even forget how many bullets, even if there can be six or seven, I cannot remember but all I can say is that I fired several shots and he fell and I stopped after that.

JUDGE MILLER: Tell me, what sort of firearm did you shoot with, what was it?

ALAN TYANI: It was a 9 mm pistol, a Berretta.

JUDGE MILLER: Was that automatic or what?  Do you have to pull the trigger each time you fire a shot or can you pull the trigger once and have a double shot or whatever?

ALAN TYANI: You would release a bullet after pulling a trigger once.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Alright, but after the shooting you certainly made your pistol safe and didn't you then count the spent cartridges?

ALAN TYANI: No, I was also shocked and I was thinking very deeply of what normally happens in situations like that but I never counted as to how many bullets were released.  Wasn't it your practice as a policeman to account for your ammunition or not?  When you get issued a gun they issue you a gun with fifteen rounds and then if you use a round don't you have to explain, put in some sort of report explaining why you haven't got as much ammunition as you had when you were issued with it?

ALAN TYANI: Yes that is correct, that is why I'm saying I shot four bullets but if it is said there were six bullet holes I think it was the case, the situation, I was confused because I was in some difficult situation.

MR MALAN: So do you concede that you might have indeed fired all six of the shots or was there somebody else that fired as well?

ALAN TYANI: That is also possible, I cannot dispute that.

MR MALAN: Why did you kill the deceased?

ALAN TYANI: The reason for me to kill him, I never had intentions to kill him but after Mr Gumengu had shouted out that the deceased had a grenade, when I looked at him and I saw him lifting up his arm and I saw something like a pin on the grenade, that is when I started shooting because I had to protect ourselves because he was about to kill us.  It was not because I wanted him to be killed on that particular day.

MR MALAN: In that small time span, did you still have to cock your weapon or was it ready for firing?

ALAN TYANI: When you go to a danger area you have to cock your firearm unless you are in a car driving to your colleagues, but even then it depends on the conditions.  It's therefore we were dealing with a different person unlike the drug dealers or dagga dealers.  He was trained, we knew that he was trained in Angola and Russia or if not in Eastern Germany so when we were going to his place we knew that we would come across his friends therefore anything was possible.  That is why we had our firearms ready.  I had to have my firearm ready because we heard that he had just arrived at home and they said he was also with his brother, Mtumele Zokwe, but we didn't see him.

MR MALAN: Alright, Mr Tyani, would this event have taken place if you adhered to normal police procedures regarding unlocking the handcuffs of the deceased?

ALAN TYANI: That couldn't have happened.  If we did not unlock the handcuffs and if we just opened the door ourselves but we were not just thinking about him only when we went there, we anticipated that as we were looking for him it was possible that he wanted to avail himself when he went to Meikso building, he did that intentionally, he wanted to tell us to go to the house in some way so that - perhaps he knew that there were booby-traps or there were people waiting for us therefore we had to protect ourselves.

MR MALAN: But it was suggested yesterday and I agree, why didn't you handcuff him with his hands in front of him and you could have had the same results that you intended by uncuffing his hands?

ALAN TYANI: Sthembele was a very dangerous person and we were aware of the fact and he used to make such utterances and he said the day he would be arrested that he would be dead and he won't die alone.  When we handcuffed his hands behind his back we knew that he won't be able to try any movement but at least if we had his hands handcuffed in front he would be more dangerous.  That was on our minds.

MR MALAN: When you reported this incident back to Capt Mfazwe what was his attitude?  Did he congratulate you and say well done, your task was executed to my satisfaction?

ALAN TYANI: He congratulated us and even said that instead of having his members dying in the battle because this Sthembele was our enemy, he told us that we had done a very good job and he had no other option.

MR MALAN: And did you get the impression that you merely killed Mr Zokwe in line with his orders or did you indicate to him there was another situation which forced you to use this route?  Either you or Gumengu, for that matter?

ALAN TYANI: There was no other situation as far as I'm concerned expect for the fact that we had to arrest him and get the firearms and protect ourselves where necessary.  There was nothing else except that.

MR MALAN: Do you, are you of the belief that the killing of Mr Zokwe tantamount to a violation of human rights in your opinion?

ALAN TYANI: I can say that was human rights violation because a person would be killed by the sentence from the judge not by the people, therefore his rights were violated because he was killed by people.

MR MALAN: Let me put it to you this way, if Mr Zokwe was a normal citizen in your eyes and the police received information that there might be an arms cache in his house, would you have gone through the same procedure or would the normal constable or warrant officer brought him to the house, brought him back, placed him under arrest and went through the normal procedures in the trial court?

ALAN TYANI: If he was just a normal citizen even the way you arm yourself if you are dealing with that kind of a person is different but as a normal citizen who was using handgrenades that totally changes the approach because even if you go there to arrest him it would be different.

MR MALAN: Is there anything that you would like to lay in the midst of this Honourable Committee that we didn't touch during this testimony?

ALAN TYANI: Yes there's a lot to say but I was testifying under your leadership.  There's a lot to say about him because on this particular day it was not the first attempt or it was not my first dealing with him.  Even when I got to know him as a dangerous person I knew him before he was trained, that is why I say if I can be given permission I can be able to explain how did he get hold of such activities.

MR MALAN: Mr Gumengu with all respect I don't doubt it that there's any people here except if they indicate otherwise that they accept that he was a member of MK, I don't think anybody disputed and I don't think anybody disputes that MK at that point in time was an enemy of the State.  If that's your objection, with all due respect, I think you can withstand what is already on record unless you've got something else that you feel necessary, you're welcome to do so.