Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: I agree that he didn't say that because himself, as far as I know he was a member of the task force.  Really, I don't know why he didn't tell the Committee about this.

MR STEENKAMP: What was his function as a task force commander, do you know?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: As far as I know we had the same function.  Our function was to fight.  We were both involved in the armed struggle to liberate the African people who were oppressed at that time.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just tell the Committee what exactly was your political motive for your part in this incident?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for purposes of clarity, if my learned colleague can clarify which incident he is referring to, the possession of arms or the Wesselsbron incident?

MR STEENKAMP: Well I think we can stick to the Wesselsbron incident for one.

MR MALAN: Mr Steenkamp, the applicant gave evidence that he wasn't involved, that he had simply a suspicion at a later stage and that he was only involved in safekeeping arms.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm sorry about that, I read the wrong paragraph here.
	Can you tell me what your political motive was for the possession of firearms, as you testified?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: My political motive as far as the weapons are concerned was to carry forward the armed struggle in our country.  So I saw it important that it was necessary for me to be involved in the liberation fight so I hid them where I hid them so that we can carry forward all the aspirations of the African people so that they can be liberated in their own land.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

MR MALAN: Mr Mohape - I'm sorry, Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: I take it you have no re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR MALAN: Mr Mohape, you stated now that you had the same function as Mr Mazete, that function was to fight,  you say you were involved in the armed struggle.  What was the fighting, how did you fight?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Even though I did not carry some of the responsibility that I was given inside APLA I was also involved in carrying out some of the aspirations of APLA like any other members who are the members of the PAC.

MR MALAN: No, that I understand, but you gave evidence and you said that you were not a member of APLA but you were a member of the task force, you had the same role as Mazete, and the role in the task force was to fight, can you just give us an indication what that was about?  How did you fight?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I will explain it in this way.  During the time when I was trained I was trained to come and fight to liberate the people.  I never received an instruction to go and fight although I was involved orally by educating our people, the people who did not know how to participate in liberating our country.
	So that was the way that I was using because I already had the education and I was also getting education from other members of APLA.

MR MALAN: But you were at no stage yourself involved in armed struggle in the sense of physically carrying guns and partaking in projects or actions?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Not at all, that never happened.

MR MALAN: So was this the only occasion when you had guns in your possession?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: That is correct, that is the only occasion that I had arms with me.

MR MALAN: So then you will recall the circumstances fairly well I assume?  Is that correct?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Yes, I still remember, even though I do not remember that much.

MR MALAN: You knew Mr Mazete well?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Yes, that is correct, I knew him well.

MR MALAN: You said that a lot of his family were living with him, his sister and others, is that correct?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: He was living alone but sometimes it happened that the people will come and rent his shack.  He was using that same shack with other two people who came to rent in that shack.  They were actually accepted by Mazete's sister.  So we were forced to take out the weapons from that shack to my shack.

MR MALAN: Can you just tell me, when it was put it your shack was it ever removed again and put in another shack?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: No, they were never removed from my shack.

MR MALAN: You made a statement to the Magistrate Brown, did you?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: That is true.

MR MALAN: In terms of that statement you told him that you, a few days after the incident, were taken to the house of Shemi, is that correct?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: If I remember well, that is true.

MR MALAN: Now who is Shemi?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: He was the Chairman of the Monyake branch.

MR MALAN: And you told the Magistrate that there were four R4 guns, magazines and rounds of ammunition as well as three handgrenades.  That's what you said in your statement, is that correct?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And that then you assisted to take it to a corrugated-iron shack where it was buried again or where it was buried.  Let me just read out to you, this is the summary of the Judge in his Judgment.  He says
"After a few days it was, the weapons were taken out again and moved to another shack where it was again buried.  Thereafter it was moved to a third shack where hit was then again buried"
This shack was your own.  So it was moved on a number of occasions and apparently you were involved in this moving of the weapons, is that correct?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: That is correct, that is what I said.

MR MALAN: Was it true?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: That was not true.

MR MALAN: Now why did you tell the Magistrate that you had more involvement than you indeed had?  If you only received it and put it away once in your own shack, why did you tell the Magistrate that you were involved on more occasions?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Chairperson, I will explain it this way.  When I was arrested conditions were very bad.  Some of the things that I said are things that I did not do.  I wanted the police to sympathise with me because those police who came to arrest me were assaulting me, they chocking me, they were doing all these bad things to me.  	So everything that I said, those lies that I said in that statement I think they would continue beating me if I didn't make those statements.  That is the way that I was using with the intention of forcing them to release me.  That is why I told the Magistrate those lies.

CHAIRPERSON: But why should the police be interested in saying: "I took the guns and I buried them in one spot and then I buried them in another spot and then I buried them in a third spot"?  The police were interested in finding the guns weren't they?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: It is true because those weapons that they got, they never believed that those were the only guns that were used.  For example, during the interrogation while they were asking me questions they were asking me about APLA, they wanted to know: "Who is APLA"?  They were referring to it as if it was a person.  So they did not believe that these were the only weapons that we had.
	I was surprised by their attitude, that is why I decided that I would tell lies they way I said it, so that they could stop assaulting me.

MR MALAN: When you made this statement, this specific statement, that was made to the Magistrate and not to the police.  Can you remember when you made the statement to the Magistrate?