Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-02

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It was myself and four comrades, I was the fifth one.  We went to a police station at Frankfort.  When we arrived there there was a policeman who was in the van outside sleeping and the other one was sleeping in the police station in the main building of the police station.  We awakened the other one who was sleeping in the car and we told him to open and wake up his colleague who was sleeping inside.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Just before we proceed with that, how did it come about that you were a group of five and you went to Frankfort, what happened before that?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: After coming from the exile I worked for the African National Congress in the security department.  In 1992 myself and the other comrades who were guarding Comrade Chris Hani, he had given us the instruction to collect the firearm so that we could be able to defend our communities and to be able to train the people for defence in our communities and we decided that the place to get the firearms was this police station, that is why we went to that police station.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So the people who went to the police station, from whom did they get the instruction to do that, who authorised that?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: First of all it was an agreement from all of us to go to that particular police station and get firearms as we had been there during the day on that particular day and we realised that it was possible for us to get firearms there therefore we took that decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave the order or who authorised it, the plan to go to the police station?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We got that authorisation from Chris who told us to try and organise some weapons in order to train and protect the community, that became our responsibility as soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: In which capacity did Mr Hani give that approval, as head of what?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: At the time of the incident he was in the higher ranks of the MK as the chief of the MK.  He issued that instruction as the Chief of Staff.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.  Now you are saying you went there as a group.  Did you belong to any political organisation?

CHAIRPERSON: He's already said whatever he said was in as a member of the ANC and in particular as an operative of MK.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now you are already there now, you've woken up this policeman.  What happened?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: After ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who was in command of that small unit?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The commander of this particular unit was Comrade Mamalise.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?  do you know his surname?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Mamalise Sewu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: When I arrived at this police station I saw a policeman sleeping and we woke him up and we told him to go and ...(inaudible) and we looked at the police station and saw the van outside and next to the police station and realised that there was a policeman inside with a firearm between his legs and we could see in the same van there was another policeman but we're not sure if he had a firearm.  We told this other policeman and knocked and the police station and ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: Can you hear me?  Any sound coming on 2?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: When we arrived at the police station there was a police van in front of the police station.  We tried to look around.  After that we realised that there were two policemen and the other one was sleeping in this police van, the one that was outside the police station but the doors were not locked and the other policeman was sleeping inside the police station on a chair.  We could see that through some opening and this policeman had a firearm.  We woke the one policeman that was outside sleeping in the van, we told him to go and knock at the police station and wake this other policeman up because we were there to get firearms at the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you told the policeman that was sleeping in the van?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes, when he woke up he was scared, that's what we told him and he was shaking because we were also armed with firearms pointing at him.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you have?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was armed with an Uzzi.

CHAIRPERSON: A lot of people talk about an Uzzi, what is it's correct name or is that the correct name?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: That is what I know, that is the only name that I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: This policeman was frightened, he was not relaxed he was scared.  We told him that he was not going to be hurt but he must just open the door and we told him that we knew that there was a safe inside and we wanted him to open there so that we could get the firearm.  At the time we were - it's not all of us who were talking to him but I remember myself and this policeman, there was a struggle and I overpowered him and he fell.  After falling I went straight there to the door and I kicked the door open.  We got in, the two of us, and there was firing.

CHAIRPERSON: You are talking too fast.  You went there and you asked the police to open the door.  What happened?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: The police did not open the door, we ended up struggling with each other.  He was holding me because he was trying to hide behind me, that's what I was thinking at the time and I ended up overpowering him, I hit him and he fell and after that I turned looking at the door where I kicked the door open, the door of the police station.  After that the door was opened and the one policeman who was inside stood up.  During that process when we were getting in after kicking the door a shot rang outside.  When I turned trying to see what was happening and Mamalise said "this person is running away", he said this person was running away, apparently he had shot this person.  I ignored that, I went back to the house, to the building.  This other policeman's firearm had fallen on the other side because he was also shot.  We took the firearm and we told him to open the safe and he told us that the keys belonging to the safe were not with them they were just there on duty for the night, they were not keeping the keys for the safe and he was also shaking, he was scared, crying at the same time.  We tried to calm him down, we told him that he was not going to be hurt even the one who was injured outside, it was all his fault, that's what I told this policeman inside, I told him that he was not going to be hurt because of his own fault, he was also frightened.  I told him to run away or to leave.  He ran away and we went out of the police station firing in the air and we were also running towards the gate, we were just firing in the air.  We went back to the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you leave the firearms with the safe or what?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We left the firearms in the safe because we couldn't open the safe.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you get anything?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.  We got two firearms, a 9 mm parabellum and a .38.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you people take there?  Go slowly?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We got a 9 mm parabellum one, there was a P38, we got a 7.65 pistol, only one.

CHAIRPERSON: 7 - .765?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Some call it .765 some call it 7.65.  It is a small pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: 7.65?  Yes, proceed?  You say a 7.65 mm what?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It is a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what else?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We got these two pistols from this police station, the other one was a 9 mm and the other was a 7.65.

CHAIRPERSON: Only two pistols you got?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So is that all you took from the police station?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And you ran away?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes we ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you ...(intervention)

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: We told this policeman to run away.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you find these two firearms?