Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Van der Schyff, the amnesty application you were justified only at a very late stage to apply for amnesty, because when these things happened and quite a long time afterwards, you did not fall within the date to apply for amnesty and legislature according to this, only came into life a little bit later, 1997?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Since when have you been detained separately from your other applicants?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: 1994, October 1994, I was transferred to Pretoria Maximum Prison.  The next year, I think the 6th of June, they abolished the death penalty and on the 23rd of October I was transferred back to Johannesburg Maximum Security Prison.  And I am still there.

MR PRINSLOO: So you were away from other people then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, we were all together from the 23rd of October 1995, we were detained in Johannesburg Prison, all of us.  February, March 1996, the rest of the applicants were taken away from there and they were transferred to Pretoria Maximum and from there to Leeukop Maximum.

MR PRINSLOO: When did you submit your application?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: On the 8th of May.

MR PRINSLOO: So they were away then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Diedericks, since you have been detained, was never detained with you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: He did not get the death sentence, no.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, Andre Visser, was he detained with you in Randburg Prison?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: If you can just be more specific, at the moment he is detained with me.

MR PRINSLOO: How long have you been together?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: February he came back from Leeukop.

MR PRINSLOO: February this year?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: With Mr Diedericks you have no problem, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Diedericks came to visit me once while I was in prison.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you have any problems with Diedericks?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: None.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you have any problems with Andre Visser?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: None.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you have any problems with Badenhorst?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: None.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you have any problems with Etienne Visser?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: None.

MR PRINSLOO: With whom do you have a problem?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: With Kloppers, Martin and Meiring.

MR PRINSLOO: With the others you have no other problem?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Why do you paint them all black?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I am not painting anybody black, I am just here to come and tell the truth.

MR PRINSLOO: It was in your evidence, you did not make an exception with regards to them, you described them as people who were all opposed to you?  What do you say about that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I do not agree with that statement.

MR PRINSLOO: That is what your evidence was.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That was their evidence before the Commission, that is what they heard.

MR PRINSLOO: So it wasn't your evidence?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: What I testified here is what I heard that evening.

MR PRINSLOO: That specific evening when you were called together at the road house, all that was said then was that you were going to work that evening?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, and we received firearms.

MR PRINSLOO: You, yourself and who else?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Me, myself and Gert Diedericks.

MR PRINSLOO: Gert Diedericks?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Etienne Visser did not receive a weapon?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, he did not have one.

MR PRINSLOO: And he was a trained officer and he was standing there without a firearm?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And he made no objection to that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, he didn't say anything.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there anyone of you who said that he did not have a weapon at the road house?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Three of us said that.  Three people said that they did not have weapons, this was at the road house.

MR PRINSLOO: And he didn't receive a firearm?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: And he did not receive a firearm.

MR PRINSLOO: In your statement to the Police you said that you, Diedericks and Visser received weapons?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: This is what I said to the Police.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you say that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Because later Diedericks had a button which in the dark can look like a pipe.

MR PRINSLOO: But sir your evidence is now that the firearm of Diedericks was given to Visser.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you tell the Police an untruth?  With regard to that firearm, the fact that you said all three of you had firearms?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: If you look at the court proceedings you would see that I later rectified it.

MR PRINSLOO: I am talking about the Police statement.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is what I said in my Police statement.  A lot of things I said, I said in my statement, were lies.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it a lie when you said that Diedericks shot, everybody shot, including Andre Visser?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That was the question which was asked the evening at Jaco Badenhorst's house, who of you shot, except Diedericks was not there.

MR PRINSLOO: The point is in your statement you said that Andre Visser also shot?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is the inference I made because he had a firearm with him.

MR PRINSLOO: In the statement you put this as a fact?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: As I already said I lied in front of the Commission as far as that statement is concerned.

MR PRINSLOO: That specific evening at the road house, the people were told to get out of the car?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did they go and sit on the embankment, whose instruction was that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: They were told to go and sit there.

MR PRINSLOO: Who told them that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I told the people to go and sit on the embankment because that is the instruction I received.

MR PRINSLOO: Who did you get the instruction from?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: From Kloppers.

MR PRINSLOO: What did he tell you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: He said that the cars would be pulled off, people must get out of the cars and they must sit on the embankment.

MR PRINSLOO: Was this before anything was asked of them?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: This was the set up at the road block.

MR PRINSLOO: But sir, then I do not understand your evidence.  The other vehicles which were pulled off, any one of them, those people, did they go and sit on the embankment?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: Why not?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I cannot say.

MR PRINSLOO: You received instruction that the people must be taken out of their cars, and they must sit on the embankment?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: It was a general instruction?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I only followed his instruction.

MR PRINSLOO: It was a general instruction beforehand, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: According to your evidence?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, according to my evidence.