Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MS SIGODI: And then about the meeting on the 17th of June when you were called and you were told that you must go and attack Boipatong, were the AK47's there at the stadium when you were called to the meeting?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Coming back from fetching our weapons I did see the AK47's - coming back the second time now after we fetched our weapons from our rooms.

MS SIGODI: You did see them?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes we did see them.

MS SIGODI: And roughly how many AK47's were there?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: This is a rough estimation, I will say about 4 or 6 upwards, it's possible.

MS SIGODI: But definitely not more than 10?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I wouldn't say so, there were not too many of them.

MS SIGODI: And were there small guns?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Some had small guns in their possessions, even at Boipatong.

MS SIGODI: So the AK47's that were available for distribution to the 300 to 400 people, there were only - I mean people had to compete for only 6 AK47's, is that what you're saying?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Tshabangu my questions will be around seeking clarity on your political conviction.  You told the Committee that you were a member Xhosa's, and Xhosa's will be more aligned to the ANC, am I correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: And then again people who were victimised in the township, we are told they are Zulus.  You were not victimised because of the fact that you are not a Zulu, you are a Shangaan you told us?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: At the time when I was a member of Xhosa's the Zulu-speaking were not yet attacked or being victimised, even IFP.  We were just fighting against policemen at the time.

MR SIBANYONI: When you left - when you went to kwaMadala Hostel to see refuge, at that stage you were not yet a member of the IFP?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes, my father was at the time a member of the IFP.

MR SIBANYONI: Will I be correct that you left the township for different reasons that political affiliation, or your ethnicity?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR SIBANYONI: What was the reason for you to leave the township?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: As I already explained, that amongst other things I was being blamed for the fact that I had friends who were IFP members, and my father as well was an IFP member.  This is why I say these are some reasons that motivated me to leave the location, the township so to speak.

MR SIBANYONI: Last question, what would you say if a person says there is sort a perception that it seems you might have joined Inkatha to use it as a hurdle to get back to the people who were, I will say, having problems with you in the township?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I will refute all of that, it's not like that.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words you subscribed, you believed the believed the aims and objectives of Inkatha, that's why you joined it?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that there was a meeting prior to the attack, I think this meeting was probably on the 10th of June 1993, at which the hostel residents were told to prepare for an attack?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us what preparations were made for the attack?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: What I did myself, I was ready and waiting on him to hear him when he gives us the go-ahead to attack.  That is what I understood that message to be.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from being mentally ready for the attack, but if you're going to go in an attack, you do not need your mind only, you need weapons to fight with.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: You told us, I think you did, that ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't hear the translation of that last answer, please ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat your answer.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: What I was saying is that I was not aware about the preparations that were in place for the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) certain monies that were being collected for the purposes of purchasing arms?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think you went further and said the people who contributed were those who were working, you were working at a tuck-shop I think it was?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes, that's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any contribution towards the purchase of those arms?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No I was taken as a person who was unemployed.  The tuck-shop that was in the hostel, I was not even renting or paying any money.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before the attack on Boipatong did this collection of funds for the purchase of arms take place?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I'm not in a position to say anything, but I will say it was quite some time.  I'm not too sure whether to say it was long time, because they used to threaten us that they will come.  That's when this whole thing emerged that we have to get ready and we have to collect some money.

CHAIRPERSON: From your own personal knowledge, do you know whether any arms were purchased following the collection of these funds?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Subsequent to the instruction that the residents of the hostel must be - must get ready for an attack, were any funds collected to purchase firearms?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes, the collection of money went on.

CHAIRPERSON: So after these instructions funds were collected for the purchase of the arms?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever try to - well, I understand that you were one of the persons who were much more concerned about the conditions under which you were living?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to find out whether those arms in fact were delivered.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) moved to the hostel.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) kwaMadala Hostel.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: In 1991 if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the year in which you joined the IFP?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising from the questions by the Committee?

MR BERGER: No questions Chair.

MR LAX: Sorry, there was just one question that I made a note to ask and I forgot to ask it.  There's mention in some of the statements about a white Grenada.  Who drove a white Grenada in the hostel that you knew of?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It was Wolly Bujose.

MR LAX: Wolly Bujose?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: That vehicle was seen prior to the attack in the vicinity of the hostel with its boot apparently very, very heavily loaded.  Did you see it on that day?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR LAX: Did Bujose have anything to do with the purchase of firearms?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I never saw him.

MR LAX: And then just one last aspect, what other firearms were available for use besides AK47's on that night in the stadium?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I only saw the AK's.  Inside Boipatong I realised that there were some who had in their possession small guns, but I don't know where they got those from.

MR LAX: So there were no handguns being made available out of some sort of supply?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't know much about the small guns, but what I saw were AK's just before we left.

MR LAX: And you never saw any pump-action shotguns?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR LAX: Did you see any home-made firearms there?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR LAX: Thanks very much Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Chairperson ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Is Isaak Mosobode Bujose the same person as Wolly Bujose?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: The Bujose I'm referring to is the one who was a state witness in Pretoria, that's the one I'm referring to, I'm talking about in other words.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that you're referring to as Wolly Bujose?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Chairperson,  there's just one question arising from the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?