Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

MR MBANDAZAYO: May I clarify Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I visited him in prison in Bloemfontein.  I was visiting some of the prisoners in Bloemfontein also included.  There were applications which he gave to me which I think are those that I must send them to Cape Town, which I did Mr Chairman but unfortunately now I don't have the details because I didn't know that they will be required here because it was - we talked about Heidelberg incident.
	But I did forward them and I also wrote to the TRC and asked about these incidents, they confirmed that they have applications from him but I don't have the details now because I was coming for the Heidelberg incident - they are all in East London where I come from.

JUDGE WILSON: Who did you write to here?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, of late now I've communicating with Martin Coetzer - of late but before that it was difficult Mr Chairman, I must indicate that we were not having any response this incident.  In fact I have to make new applications for some who have lodged applications before because they couldn't get them so it was difficult until Martin Coetzer came into the picture and after that we were communicating and he told me some these applications were not there, so I have to - some of the applicants have to fill new application forms.

JUDGE WILSON: But in respect of this applicant you say that these three forms have been sent and are here at this office?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I can confirm that because I did send them to this office.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, let's hear about the other two matters, you've mentioned the one at Xhumbu, what was the next one?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The other one was at Inxhobo.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us about it, what did you do?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We killed a man for reasons that I've detailed in the form.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I want you to now tell me who you killed?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Mr Stembele Mgcebeshe.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that surname please.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: N-g-c-e-b-e-s-h-e.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I think it was 1992 but I'm not certain of the precise date.

CHAIRPERSON: And the third one?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The third one happened along the Mount Frere main road, I cannot remember this man's name at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say, the interpreter hasn't said?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I cannot remember the man's name at the moment, the third incident was at the main road in Mount Frere.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I think it was in 1993, I cannot remember the exact date.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you kill that man?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, we killed him.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say: "We killed him", you and somebody else or just you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: There were other people too.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in respect of these three matters - these three people, have there been any cases that have started against you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, it seems that once we've examined his application forms and after the matter has been fully investigated by the investigative unit, it may be necessary to have a special hearing in respect of these other matters.  For the time being we will proceed with the Heidelberg Tavern matter and you may now call the next applicant.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry before that, there are one or two points I would like to clear up with this applicant, again arising from his statement.
	You talk in your statement of going to the Heidelberg Tavern about three days before the incident with Maxeba, the driver of the car and Makweso.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you drive to the Heidelberg Tavern on that occasion when you went to inspect it?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, we drove.

JUDGE WILSON: What car?

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear properly.

JUDGE WILSON: Can you repeat the name of the type of car please?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was a Ford Courier bakkie.

JUDGE WILSON: Who provided it?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is a car that Speech used all the time.

JUDGE WILSON: Who?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Sepiwe Makweso.

JUDGE WILSON: You've talked about R4 rifles and AK47 rifles, do you know what calibre they are?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What do you mean by calibre?

JUDGE WILSON: The size of the cartridge - 9mm, 7.65?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I will answer you as follows:  I'm not well trained on the South African weapons, it is from the Eastern Block that I was well trained.

JUDGE WILSON: So you don't know?  Is that the position?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What do you mean?

JUDGE WILSON: You don't know what the calibre of the cartridges are - if you do, tell me, don't tell me about training in the Eastern Block.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: As I said I cannot give you the answers because I don't know the calibre of the R4 rifles.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know the calibre of an AK47?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: If I remember correctly, it's 7.62 by 59 - if I'm not mistaken.

JUDGE WILSON: I take it we can evidence about that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: You told us that you were aware that the PAC had resolved at it's December 1993 Congress to intensive the armed struggle, did you attend that congress?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I did not go to the Congress.

JUDGE WILSON: Well who told you about the Congress?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The other Africans who were in the same region as myself that came back from the Congress.

JUDGE WILSON: Who?

CHAIRPERSON: Other people.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The regional executive, Mabusela and Dala.

JUDGE WILSON: So they will be able to talk of this?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What?

JUDGE WILSON: That the PAC had resolved to intensify the armed struggle.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Prior to that the PAC had wanted to negotiate, hadn't it?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: They were in the negotiations.

JUDGE WILSON: And you wrote about this when you applied for amnesty in respect of the Zastron application, didn't you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I cannot hear the question clearly or understand the question clearly.

JUDGE WILSON: You gave a lengthy explanation in your application for amnesty in respect of the Zastron application, didn't you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Which application, the one that I'm about here today?

JUDGE WILSON: The Zastron, the Zastron bridge application that we have spoken about already - that you have confirmed happened on the 18th of March 1992, you remembered the date, why are you know having difficulty remembering the application?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The thing is, I do not understand the question clearly because of the following reasons, I don't know whether you are still talking about the 1992 Congress or the 1993 Congress and I don't know what the Zastron incident has to do with that so please be clear.

JUDGE WILSON: I asked you if you made a lengthy explanation when you lodged that application.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Specifically the Zastron application?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: There you said
"This was also to pressurise the Government through it's electorate, that they must take the negotiation process seriously and in good faith"
Do you remember writing that as a reason for what you did?