Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mahlangu, if, I do not want to lose some of the things that you were mentioning in your story because you give a lot of details and I think it is necessary that we try and focus on some of the important issues.  So, if you do not mind, I just want to come to some questions.  The first question is really about, you said that you were Chairperson of the Debating Society at your school and you were in standard eight at the time.  You were asked questions by these people who you say were Imbokhoto people.  Can you just give us some idea of the kinds of debates which use to take place?  What were the issues which were being discussed?  As briefly as possible, Sir.

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: We use to debate, the topics that I can tell you about in shortly.  We were talking about the total disarmourment, matrimony is better than monarchy, celibacy is better than matrimony.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did you ever debate political issues?  You know issues around the conflict at the time?

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: Yes, I was debating at school and quoting
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Solomon Mahlangu, Steve Biko and all other activists of African National Congress.  I was a sympathiser of the ANC knowing that we were stili under the apartheid Government.   Because I was debating at school I was not aware that maybe sometimes the members of the vigilante group, some of them, there are spies at school, those who can go and inform their fathers and come and attack me at school.

RUSSELL ALLY: And what was the attitude of the youth towards Imbokhoto?  What did they say about Imbokhoto and what were they actually prepared to do about Imbokhoto?

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: When they came at school there was a meeting the previous weekend.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes. Sorry, Mr Mahlangu.  I want to ask you what attitude?  How did the youth, because you said you debated and you discussed these issues.  What was the attitude of the youth?  The youth who you associated with towards Imbokhoto?  How did they feel about Imbokhoto?  What kind of things did they say about Imbokhoto?

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: We were caucusing about Imbokhoto saying the way Imbokhoto does their activities, we must do something.  We are not able to move freely and the ladies who wore trousers during our trips, they were beaten by Imbokhoto because they said woman should not wear trousers.  That was one of the reasons which we use to discuss with some of my friends at school.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, in your statement you say that you witnessed killings, but when you gave your testimony now, you actually said that you saw bones.  Now what actually did you witness?  Are you saying that you saw people being killed, you yourself, by Imbokhoto or that you saw what you thought or believed to be the bones or human remains in this place that MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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where you were taken to?

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: When I entered at that slaughter house the people, those who were inside there, there was a scream which I heard.  I heard somebody screaming.  Then from there I saw bloodstains.  When they made me to enter there was one who was removed to a different room.  He was taken to the other room and that place is too big and that person was screaming about twice.  I saw the bloodstains there before I entered, then I said there are other people here because at that time I was heavily beaten.  I was not able to see many things.

RUSSELL ALLY: If you can come back to, I was asking whether you, did you actually see people being killed?  That is very important because we want to be absolutely clear about what you mean in your statement.  We accept that you saw blood, that you heard screams, but did you actually see someone die in that, being killed or was that what you believed actually happened?

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: I saw human remains there then I believed that people were killed there.

RUSSELL ALLY: So, you did not actually see any killings yourself.  You saw human remains which made you believe that people had been killed, but you did not see anybody being killed.  So when the statement says that you witnessed killings, it is inaccurate.  What it should actually be saying is that you saw human remains and you believed that people had been killed there.  Is that a more accurate account of what happened?

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: What I was talking about the killing, it was because of the scream I heard that side and the blood which I saw there.  Then I said that person has been killed and
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that he has been thrown somewhere.

RUSSELL ALLY: And did you ever report this to anybody?  Did you report it to the police maybe?

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: After this incident, after I escaped I went to Mabopane.  When I arrived in Mabopane then from there I experienced the Winterveld Massacre where the person called Mocobene was killing people.  Then I went to Kalafong, then I went to Atteridgeville, then again I went to Pretoria Council of Churches where I got assistance from the SA Sisi staff from Bokedu Makane and others until I recovered that I should be able to make contact.  Then I made a statement again at the Human Rights and Legal Aid Resource Centre of what has happened to me.  To go back to Kwagga, I was afraid that at that time the Imbokhoto was not harassing at that time, for me to stay well.  It is then that I, it is after they have killed Skosana, Mantletu where I was able to come and reside peacefully because the place where they took me to at that time.  The uprisings have not started yet then in Kwagga and Mantletu because I had a chanced of coming back.  Even now I still am not safe, I am not protected.  I am still afraid of those people.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mahlangu, thank you for your statement, I mean, you have been with us for close to an hour now, but you have given us quite a lot of information and quite a number of leads which we certainly will follow up and try and investigate as many of the claims that you make as possible.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mahlangu, there may be further questions.  Tom, any questions.  Mrs Seroke.  Mr Mahlangu, may I pursue something.  We have listened to the great detail, we have read your statement, we have also read the statement that
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you made under oath to Mr Gill Fillen.  So, we have a very comprehensive picture.  What remains to me a little bit of a mystery and it is a gap in the information is in your statement that you filled out to the Truth Commission you mention that you were an Executive member, President it says here at one place at the time of the Kwagga branch of UDF.  That is 1986/1987.  Is that correct?

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: May you please repeat the question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me phrase it the other way round.  You say in your statement, what is written here, given to our statement taker, is that you were involved in the UDF.  It says where, the question is the place, you say in Kwagga.  Then it asks about the positions held and you say here President, Executive Member and it asks about the dates and it says from 1986 to 1987.  You did testify that you were in leadership.  Can you tell me exactly what that leadership position was?

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: It is true that after I came back to Kwaggafontein then we lost the United Democratic, the UDF in Kwaggafontein.  Then we went to Khoute House to get members to be protected.  At that time we had members of our organisations and were not ...(tape ends)

MR MALAN: Just to respond to the question I want to know what your involvement was, whether you were in leadership of a youth organisation or the UDF itself in 1986 when this incident that you talked to us at length, when that took place.  Sorry to interrupt you but I want to get to my need at the moment.

SOLOMON MAHLANGU: Yes I was the Chairman of the UDF, Kwaggafontein branch.