Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MS FALATI: I cannot remember well.

MR MPOFU: Well?

MS FALATI: I cannot remember well, but what I know, I have known you at that time, before.

MR MPOFU: Yes, no, I am not talking about seeing me doing what you call white boys' cases.

MS FALATI: In fact, Inkehla was there representing with Cathy, Kathleen Sachwell and I was there in part and parcel of the, supporting those who were refusing to go to the military ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: All right.  In any event ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: ... training.

MR MPOFU: ... yes. When I met you at the prison you then told me, you gave me the version of what, the version of what had happened.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR MPOFU: And your version was the same as the one that you subsequently gave in court in the Richardson trial.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Richardson's trial?

MR MPOFU: Yes.  Well, whichever trial before the democratic Government came and you decided to speak the truth.  The version you gave me was the version that you gave that the boys were fetched and that Mrs Mandela went to Brandfort.  Is that not correct?

MS FALATI: Ja.

MR MPOFU: And ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: I never gave you any version ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: Well ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: ... when you were in came into prison, I remember, I never gave you any version.  The only thing I wanted you, you came and, to give me support, moral support.  You did not ask me so many things, because we were given very little time and my story was as long as (...indistinct).

MR MPOFU: Who gave us little time?

MS FALATI: Those people in prison.

MR MPOFU: No, that is not correct.  I was given all the time I wanted to consult.

MS FALATI: I do not think so.  That means you never stayed, for such, quite a long time in my place.

MR MPOFU: Well, in any event, was, is your version that you gave to, let us say, not say to me, to the lawyers, at that stage, the version of the Brandfort alibi.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: That was not the lawyer which I gave it.  The version of, it was at the police, that was at the Protea Police Station.

MR MPOFU: Yes.  That version, you first gave it at Protea Police Station at the time of your arrest.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Hmm.

MR MPOFU: And then you subsequently gave it later at the Richardson trial.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR MPOFU: And between the Protea statement and the court you consulted with the lawyers.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Ja.

MR MPOFU: And you gave the same version?

MS FALATI: It was changed from one place.  I told you, I told the court during the proceedings that it was changed.  This was not given, the one which I have given to Oosthuizen, it was a different one which, I gave it to the Johannesburg, that is Johannesburg, Westgate Court and that it, it was gradually shifted until ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: Right.

MS FALATI: ... until at court.

MR MPOFU: Yes.

MS FALATI: Ja.  It was not the same version from Oosthuizen.  It, there were some of the things which were changed right through, right up.

MR MPOFU: All right.  You also gave an interview to Dr Allan Gino.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR MPOFU: This was before your arrest?

MS FALATI: Yes, that was before my arrest.

MR MPOFU: And you gave the Brandfort alibi to him as well.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR MPOFU: And you also gave that alibi to a local newspaper, I think it was City Press.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: To who, City Press?

MR MPOFU: Yes.

MS FALATI: No.

MR MPOFU: You only gave it to Allan, to Dr Allan Gino?

MS FALATI: Ja, to Allan and the Durban paper which, where I was flying, flown to Durban ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: Yes, well, I just ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: ...  for that application.

MR MPOFU: ... know that it was covered in the local press.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: No, it was not covered in the local press, it was covered in Durban.

MR MPOFU: In Durban?

MS FALATI: Ja.

MR MPOFU: I see.  Ja, well that is what I mean by the local press.

MS FALATI: No, local is when you are talking about the ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: About Mayfair.

MS FALATI: Ja.

MR MPOFU: Okay.

MS FALATI: Mayfair, Ja.

MR MPOFU: Now, do you know, it is ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Not translated).

MR MPOFU: Yes, I would really, Archbishop, I would like to ask for some latitude, because this is the crucial part of my involvement in this matter.

MS FALATI: Ja.

MR MPOFU: If possible.  I will not abuse the latitude.  Thank you.  It has been suggested in, you did speak to the person who wrote Katiza Cebekhulu's book?  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Ja, at a later stage.

MR MPOFU: Yes.

MS FALATI: That is this year.

MS FALATI: Ja, ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: Now, ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: ... that was this year.

MR MPOFU: Ja, it is suggested there that you told this person that the Brandfort alibi had been manufactured, I think that was the word that was used by me.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: That the Brandfort alibi was manufactured?

MR MPOFU: Was manufactured by me.  In other words, it was originated or created by me.  Well, I am not saying, well, is it correct that you told her, told him this?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR MPOFU: Now, in actual fact, ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: Manufactured by you and Winnie.

MR MPOFU: Yes.  In actual fact, who, how did ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: From time to time I was told the wrong, told a lie.

MR MPOFU: Yes.  In other words, the, we, me and Mrs Mandela, we conceived the alibi and we fed it to you.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Yes, because you were coming into prison as a go-between between myself and Winnie Mandela.

MR MPOFU: Yes.

MS FALATI: Coming to prison to say that must, you know, just a go-between.

MR MPOFU: Yes, now ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: Like a message boy.

MR MPOFU: ... at this time did you ever tell anybody in the legal team that represented you that your, there was another version?  In other words, that there was the truth, but this is what is to be said.

MS FALATI: Which truth?

MR MPOFU: Well, in your case it is difficult to say, Ms Falati.  I just want to say, did you say to anybody that there was another version?  Okay, let me put it this way.  When you spoke to Dr Allan Gino and to the Durban paper and so on, who had told you to, where did you get that, this Brandfort alibi, because it was before these prison visits in which I am alleged to have told you about ...

MS FALATI: You have been coming at Winnie Mandela's place, Tati.  Do not deny that. You have been coming in 1989, you have been coming at Winnie's place, just remember.

MR MPOFU: Is this before your arrest or after, Ms Falati?

MS FALATI: I cannot remember, but ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: Well, ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: ... you have been coming.

MR MPOFU: ... I am telling you, well, I am putting it to you, you can deny it if you want that I was ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: No.

MR MPOFU: ... never there before your arrest.

MS FALATI: Ja, ja.

MR MPOFU: Ja, ja.

MS FALATI: Ja.

MR MPOFU: Okay.  Now, I am asking you before the arrest, which is when you gave the version to Dr Gino, we have now established that you did not, I had not been there, where did you get the alibi?  Where did you get what to say to Dr Gino?

MS FALATI: That alibi is this one.  I was from Durban that time and I had flown at an earlier stage, been flown to Durban.  I went to Durban in order to fabricate this story.  When I came back with the cooked up story I was actually told what to say and I did not even know the people I was sent to.  I never knew those people, are the veterans of the ANC.  A story was fabricated, it was a cooked up story, cooked and fabricated by you and Winnie Mandela and I had to cram this story and relate it on television.