Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-25

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I just want to respond to what my learned friend has just said in the following way.
	Firstly, it is true that the name of the victim Cassandro was brought to the notice or to the attention of the Truth Commission.  Number two, it is true that he has not been informed.  But the reasons therefore are as follows; that the investigative unit tried to trace Mr Cassandro and when they came back to me they said when Mr Cassandro was in Kimberley when this incident took place, the only address they had, is that he was staying in an hotel and they 
cannot trace him any further.  That closed the matter.  
	Mr Chairman, this past week on the 22nd of this month, Cape Town office called me and gave a message that a Mr Cassandro has left a message for me and a telephone number to call him. I did call him on the telephone and the telephone was for Pretoria.  I called and I spoke to a lady who said she was the secretary at the Embassy in Pretoria, by the name of Tina, and Tina said to me that Mr Cassandro, yes, was around Pretoria, but he is no more based in Pretoria, he is now working at head office in Angola, and he has since left for Angola.  I asked her and when do you expect him back, and she said well, he said to me around by the 1st or the 2nd of September.  That closes the matter, Mr Chairman.  
	The reason why we could not serve on him, he was in Angola all the time.  In as far as the clear right is concerned, I cannot gainsay that. It is for the Committee to decide what is meant by clear right.  But I have a promise, Mr chairman, in as far as the crucialness of his evidence is concerned.  My learned friend stated that his evidence is a crucial one which is important to this Committee. Of course, I had a discussion with him yesterday during our meeting about this witness, and he indicated to me that this witness is very important because he will sketch to us the events before the incident as well as after the incident. But what is he going to sketch to this Committee about, I do not know.  But from what my learned friend has just said, is in as far as the position was before the incident and the monitoring after the incident, if that is the crucialness of this witness' evidence, as it has been put, then I will not hesitate to state that nothing is in dispute in as far a the position then in Kimberley or in Bloemfontein was before the incident.  Nothing is again in dispute in as far as the position in Kimberley or in Bloemfontein was after the incident.  But if my learned friend was saying he is going to tell us, Mr Cassandro is going to tell us about Walter Smiles, he is going to tell us about the two applicants, as to how they did this and why they did this, then I would change my attitude and say indeed, he is a crucial witness. But if he is going to just paint the political climate then, this is not in dispute. We know it was unstable then before the incident and even after the incident, but I will leave this to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that we were told that this was a casual meeting they had with Cassandro, and without all the documents and this was a casual meeting, and one can understand that in a casual meeting of this kind, these points that you raise may not have been canvassed and they may well be crucial.   The Committee will take a short adjournment to consider this position.  Is there any indication as to when Mr Cassandro is likely to be here? Can  you tell us?

PROF DE KOKER: Chairperson, Mr Cassandro, and I would just like to take the submissions by Adv Mpshe a little bit earlier. It is
unfortunate that the investigations were only regarding his address, was directed towards the hotel where he stayed prior to his hospitalisation.  Mr Cassandro is an employee of the United Nations.  At the moment, and during the past four years, he has been in the constant employment of the United Nations.  By contacting his employee he could therefore have been reached.
	Furthermore, regarding his availability, although he is stationed in Angola, there are regular flights between the Mission and Angola and the Mission and Pretoria.  So he - and regular contact and communication.  So he indicated that if a date is set he would be able to make his arrangements as an international observer and a member of an international organisation to be present.  We would therefore, not have to be bound by the indication that he is inter alia going to visit Pretoria again during September.  At any stage at which it is convenient for this Committee, therefore, to set a further date, he will be able to make his arrangements, if given warning beforehand to be present.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr De Koker, I know the Chairperson has already indicated that the Committee will take a short break in order to go through your application for a postponement. May I for the sake of completeness, find out if you do have more information about the crucial testimony that Mr Cassandro is likely to give before this Committee?  I know you haven't had a proper consultation, but you have been advised by Mr Cassandro that, you know, he would be a crucial witness to this process. Are you able to explain a little more about the relevance of the evidence that Mr Cassandro will be placing before this Committee, in so far as the present application is concerned?

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you very much for the opportunity.  Firstly, if the Committee members glance at the documentation which was put before them, they will notice that no reference whatsoever is made to the peace process, to the National Peace Accord, to the agreements which were reached, to the detailed negotiations with the leadership of all organisations involved in this particular march.  That is clearly highly relevant for this Committee to decide whether in terms of section 2(3) of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, what the context of this specific Act was, and also, as to whether the act was committed with the approval of any of the organisations involved, and also in respect of at least (f), the relationship between the Act and the true objectives pursued.
	He will also place in dispute whether the applicants committed the act with any political motive whatsoever. That is on the basis of the evidence which we disclosed and I am glad that you again placed it in context, that our consultation was extremely hurried, given the circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will take a short adjournment, and if it is possible we will give our decision before one o'clock.  We will adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS