Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: If you look at page 1 of this document and it's written form 1 and there's my name, my surname, my first name and the address.  This is my handwriting, look thoroughly you'll see it's my handwriting.  When you turn to the next page which is page 2 and the last page which is the page you are referring to, those two page are not my handwriting, but at the end on the page that you have referred to is mine.  There might have been a mistake, I did not realise it, I just signed.  To show you that there was a mistake, on point 12.c on which charges, they have written five counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder.  It explains that I did not fill this form.  On the docket it was written like this, five counts of murder and two counts of attempted murder.  These five counts of murder referred to Mr Thandakubona and Mr Mphoreng because there were four counts of murder and this matter only the security guard.  It explains the discrepancy.  This is not my handwriting, I did not just see this.

MR AMEEN: If I can continue on this.  There's a signature at the bottom of page 3, above the word deponent.  Yes this is my signature, it's mine.

MR AMEEN: And according to the certificate after that, it says that the deponent has acknowledged that he/she knows and understands the contents of the declaration.  This declaration was duly sworn to before me or solemnly affirmed before me on this 10th day of May 1996 in Banks City and there's a South African Police stamp there.  You swore to this Affidavit and at the time you signed it you signed it in front of a Commissioner of Oaths and by doing so you confirmed that everything in that application or in this Affidavit was true and correct.  You are now telling this committee that there are mistakes in this application.  You had chance subsequently to go through this application, did you not pick it up, did you not pick up these mistakes so that they could be rectified?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It's not true that I had a chance subsequently to look at this Affidavit, my attorney called me in after we have applied for amnesty, he told me that I had to sign the documents.  He told me that they were supposed to be stamped by the Commissioner of Oaths.  I remember I signed this document and I went to Bank City Police Station.  They just put the stamp on and they gave the documents back to me.  I do not remember whether this person who put a stamp here, read this document to me.  I think I took my lawyer into my confidence.

ADV SIGODI: When did you realise that there were mistakes in this application?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Now, when it was referred to page 11 of Mr Mphoreng's application and I realised that there were mistakes on mine as well.

ADV SIGODI: And did you bring that to your lawyer's attention?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, during lunchtime I told him.  I told him that when Mr Mphoreng was questioned about this five murders I realised that it also appeared on my form.

CHAIRPERSON: What are we busy with now Mr Ameen?

MR AMEEN: I beg yours?

CHAIRPERSON: What's the problem?

MR AMEEN: The problem is that the applicant has signed an Affidavit in which he sets out his application.  I referred him to paragraph 12, 11.b where he speaks of a general order to defend members of the organisation.  I asked him about specific orders and my point was that that specific order, relating to the death or the killing of the victims, of the four deceased and the two survivors, is not mentioned in here and that he has not fully disclosed that and he now explains to the committee that there's an error in this.  I pointed out to him that he had sworn to this Affidavit and all of that.

CHAIRPERSON: What transpires is that what is mentioned in 11.b is a general order?

MR AMEEN: That's right.  What I'm saying Mr Chairman is that the question asks for specific orders, now he's covered it with a general order and he hasn't mentioned a specific order which he says he received, even if it was passed through leadership, he doesn't mention it.

CHAIRPERSON: But he's mentioning it in he's evidence now.  He mentioned it in his evidence.  What big problem - look at page 11 and page - what is the other page, page what?

ADV BOSMAN: Page 7.

CHAIRPERSON: So where were you - where's that other form - someone else's application form as well, Mr Mphoreng's application - Mr Hlasa's application, where is it, page what?  It's 3 and page 11, to me they're identical.  It' not a photocopy but word for word it's the same thing so it's quite obvious that they must have sat with somebody who helped them complete this application forms, probably maybe even to beat the closing date or the deadline, so really.

MR AMEEN: Alright.  In your evidence yesterday you testified that you were not a part of the group that assaulted the victims.  I put it to you that survivors, my clients, will say that you were a part of the group that accosted them near the Presbyterian Church, that they were taken to Jeff Lingani's house in two cars, one of which was a Chevy driven by you.  What do you say to that?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I would disagree with them.  I remember well, on that day I was fixing a car.  When Mr Mphoreng and Mr Lingani, Mr Thandakubona arrived the were driving a white Mazda 323 belonging to Mr Lingani.  They told me they had been at Jeff's place.  I knew already that Jeff's house had been burnt and there were comrades present.  When they arrived they told me that they have arrested some members of SOSCO, they were rounding and they captured them, they told me to come and assist quickly.  I did not hesitate ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Somewhere along the line you know, you can't just go on and on like that.  You've answered the question, they put it to you that you were there when these people were arrested and you said no I deny that.  Now you just go on and on, you must stop somewhere Mr Hlasa you know, you must restrict yourself to questions.  Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you.  When the victims were brought again by yourself and your two co-applicants to Jeff Lingani's house, they were taken into the kitchen and they were assaulted there by yourself and your co-applicants.  Is that correct?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is not true.

MR AMEEN: When exactly did you get involved in the murders, at what point in this whole incident did you get involved?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I became involved when a decision was taken as to where would they be shot at.  I remember it was myself and comrade Glen who went out to identify a spot and we came back, we gave a report to the other comrades and it was at comrade Glen's house.

MR AMEEN: Comrade Sam and comrade Tamee, were they at the premises or at Jeff Lingani's house when the order was given or when you learned of the order from (indistinct), as far as you know, were they there?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: They were present at Jeff's house, I only saw them late in the afternoon at about half past five to six o'clock.

MR AMEEN: And when this order was given did you approach them or question them about it?  As to the reasonableness or otherwise of this order.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not question the order.

MR AMEEN: Now I'm going to go back and I'm going to spend some time just putting things to you, you have already denied that you were in the house, but just for the record, my clients will say that you were one of the people who assaulted them in the kitchen with a range of weapons which included guns, iron bars, and axe and a motor car aerial, that you were one of the group that stripped them of their clothing ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Ameen, do you want an answer to that, I think we must take it step by step.

MR AMEEN: Thank you.