Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you carry any knowledge of the fact that Constand Viljoen gave the AWB and order to bring the towns under their control or the cities and that the rural areas would be Constand Viljoen's responsibility?

MR LE ROUX: They said that our orders would be that our cities would be the responsibility of us.

MS VAN DER WALT: Okay.  We know now that Constand Viljoen, at a very late stage, took part in the elections.  What was your view regarding this?

MR LE ROUX: I thought that it was one of the methods that he used because I knew that he had two options.  At the meetings in the "Skilpad" Hall he discussed the option of going to vote but I though he also continued with the option regarding violence.

MS VAN DER WALT: So the AWB or the Staff Generals did not go to the soldiers and say that they must stop with certain actions?

MR LE ROUX: No not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yesterday it was mentioned under cross examination that in your amnesty application you do not mention that Barnard told you that General Nico Prinsloo gave the order.  Why did you not insert that into you application?

MR LE ROUX: This application I wrote myself Chairperson, the one that's here, but I submitted it to my legal representative and she took everything and she worked with it and she came back to us with the application in it's revised form and then we dealt with it.  I think we left it out.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you carry any knowledge that Barnard in his application would have mentioned it in his application?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then I would like to refer you to Barnard's amnesty application, it's on page 13, paragraph 17:  And furthermore I was told by Prinsloo that the bombs will explode all over the country and he gave me instruction to make sure that the bomb was placed in Johannesburg and that they explode on a regular basis.  Was that the way you received the instruction?

MR LE ROUX: That's basically the instruction Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yesterday you testified that innocent people died, were killed and you realised that if a bomb was going to explode, innocent people would be killed and you were adamant about that during the cross examination.

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: How do you feel today about the fact that innocent people died?

MR LE ROUX: I feel it was completely unnecessary Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was also made mention of the fact that there was a post office and that you drove past it and you said that you did not see a post office.  Do you carry any knowledge with regards to the fact that the chief post office of Jo'burg is in Jeppe Street?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I know where the chief post office is Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is it not in Bree Street?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then another further aspect please which ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was Bree Street the target?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Bree Street was the target.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not the street where the post office was situated?

MR LE ROUX: It wasn't discussed as such, Barnard did not want to bomb post offices.  That's the point, he wanted a place where there were a lot of buildings.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there ever a discussion with regards to the fact that only government buildings would be targeted?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then one further aspect.  You were told during cross examination that you specifically, and the other people there, had their own agenda to act in which ever way and there were only seventy people there.  What do you say with regards to that, did you think it was only the seventy people or what was your impression regarding the whole operation?

MR LE ROUX: It wasn't only those seventy men.  The then Commando itself also moved up to certain places in the country and they were gathered in big numbers.

MS VAN DER WALT: You already testified that you know of other bomb explosions?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman may I just ask that Adv van der Walt makes available to us that hand-written document seeing she's produced it, referred to it in evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: When can you make that document available Mrs van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this the instructions which I received during consultation?

MR LANDMAN: Yes his hand-written submission that was reworked by the lawyers.

MS VAN DER WALT: I don't have it with me because these were the instructions which I was given and we worked this into a document.  I'll have to go and have a look but I'll first have to go and consult, but I cannot make it available now.  It was mentioned that he gave me instructions and it was taken up in this document.  I do not know what the problem is.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no problem, all the attorney is asking is would it be available considering the fact that it was referred to during your re-examination, but you undertake to look for it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes I will have a look but with all respect, it was in order to illustrate a point.  This person did not refer himself to the contents of the document.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR MALAN: Mr Le Roux you testified that you went to get the trailer at General Prinsloo's farm?

MR LE ROUX: I didn't know where he was but I heard that his wife was there Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Where was the trailer?

MR LE ROUX: On his farm Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And where was his farm?

MR LE ROUX: Between Klerksdorp, on the Klerksdorp Road out of Ventersdorp.

MR MALAN: You only saw his wife there?

MR LE ROUX: Yes only his was there.

MR MALAN: He wasn't there?

MR LE ROUX: No he wasn't there.

MR MALAN: Did she know that you were taking the trailer?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.  Barnard asked, look can I have the trailer and she gave us the trailer.

MR MALAN: Did he only ask if he could get it, he didn't say that he had an instruction to come and pick it up?

MR LE ROUX: No not at all Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Le Roux what exactly is an Order Meeting?

MR LE ROUX: An Order Group is what you will also find in the army, certain issues are discussed, it's like a meeting which is held and we had them once a month in the Ystergarde, at least once a month.

ADV BOSMAN: And how big was the Ystergarde, do you know how many members there were?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know at all how big they are Chairperson, but I have a suspicion that it was around 150 000.

ADV BOSMAN: So the whole Ystergarde wasn't called up.  Were they divided into groups?

MR LE ROUX: The AWB are called up but certain people have certain obligations and then they cannot be there.  It's a countrywide organisation.

ADV BOSMAN: So if I understand you correctly it was only a part of the Ystergarde that were called up just before the election, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know.  Our whole group who was together was called up.  Some of the people did not go.

ADV BOSMAN: Now the instructions, let's call it at the last Order Meeting which you attended, the instructions which were given there, how broad were they and what did they entail?

MR LE ROUX: It was with regards to this call up instruction to the Trim Park in Ventersdorp.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it just a call up instruction or did you discuss broader strategies?

MR LE ROUX: No, it's how we'd move up there and how we'd go there, what we'd do with our house, our cars and the fact that we should take caravans with, tents, it was a very broad discussion that evening.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes but was any mention made of operations?

MR LE ROUX: Yes we were told that we were going to move into certain operations.

ADV BOSMAN: But was there any indication of what the nature of these operations would be?