Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

MR LAX: Maybe I could ask you, Mr Mthembu, in your hand-written application, you refer to the Inkatha Freedom Party's Youth League.  In your affidavit, you refer to the Youth Brigade.  Were you Chairperson of two different organisations or was it just the Youth Brigade and then we must accept that it might be a mistake in the hand-written one.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was the Vice-Chairperson of the Youth in Kwamadala Hostel.

MR LAX: We must disregard the word Brigade or the word League as far as you're concerned?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know, I cannot suggest what can be done about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, you told the Committee on Monday that you have read your Amnesty Application and you've read all the subsequent affidavits which are part of your Amnesty Application.  Was that answer the truth?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: On page one, paragraph 7b, you were asked to state the capacity in which you served in the organisation and your answer was "Inkatha Freedom Party, a member, Vice-Chairman IFP Youth League."  At page 4 of the bundle, your very first affidavit, paragraph 3, you say "At the time I was the Vice-Chairman of the IFP Youth Brigade at the Kwamadala Hostel in Sebokeng.   Now, in the one paper you talk about a Youth League, in the other document you talk about a Youth Brigade, it's really very simple Mr Mthembu, are you referring to the same organisation, it's the organisation for the Inkatha Youth?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, it is the same organisation, the youth organisation of the IFP is Kwamadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: Now let's just clear this up, were you the Vice-Chairperson or the Chairperson?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was the Vice-Chairperson.

MR BERGER: When you spoke about being the Chairperson, that was a mistake, you meant Vice-Chairperson?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, it must have been a mistake.

MR BERGER: You were elected to that position in 1991 and you retained that same position in 1992 until after the massacre in Boipatong, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And when did you lose that position?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: When I was arrested, that was when I realised I could no longer hold this position.

MR BERGER: That was in 1993, am I correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: I put it to that you are lying when you say that you did not know that Themba Khosa was your provincial leader.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not lie to you, I am an adult person.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you lied already to a judge of the High Court, I'm sure lying to me wont make any difference to you and what I'm putting to you is, the reason you are lying is because you don't want me to examine the political structures of the IFP, am I correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: You were correct when you said I lied to the judge, yes I did lie.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, let me move on from Mr Themba Khosa's position and let me read to you what he said at page 3230, it's the same volume, volume 28.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Berger, please repeat that page reference please?

MR BERGER: It's page 3230, from line 14.  The question was: "You were also, sometime after 17 June, on the night of the massacre, you were quoted in a paper as having said that some of the deceased in Boipatong were known to have been IFP members.  Can you perhaps elaborate on that?"  and Mr Khosa's answer was: "We had already received information from some of the leaders in the residential area that some of the deceased were IFP members or sympathisers of this organisation."
	Let me for completeness, read to you what is given at page 3244 of Mr Themba Khosa's evidence, line 9, this is in Afrikaans:
	"Mr Khosa, who of the deceased in Boipatong were supporters of IFP?"
	"I do not know them by names, it is only the leaders of the residents who could possibly know."
Question:  "Who told you that the victims in Boipatong were members of the IFP."
	"It was the leaders.  It came out in the meeting which we attended at Kwamadala Hostel."
	"In other words, your information comes from the inhabitants of Kwamadala Hostel."
	"Yes as well as the people who were outside, for an example at the office."
	Now Mr Mthembu, there's a lot packed into those answers but let me start at the beginning.  Are you telling the Committee that you do not know who the leaders of the IFP in Boipatong were, the leaders that Mr Themba Khosa refers to?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I have no knowledge about that.

MR BERGER: How is it possible, that you as a leader of the IFP in the hostel, are not aware of leaders of the IFP in a township so close to that very hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: How could I be sympathetic to these people, they are the ones who were attacking us.

MR BERGER: Sorry, Mr Interpreter, could you interpret the whole answer again, there was some stuff that you left out there that even I ..

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Chairperson, I am saying I would not have known that there were people in Boipatong, people who were sympathetic to us at the time when we were being attacked by the people from Boipatong.  It was therefore not easy for me to know about IFP members in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: One of your co-accused and co-applicants, Mr Rubin Tebogo Magubane gave evidence at his trial, at your trial, page 3009 of the record, that at the time of the trial his parents were still living in Boipatong so surely there were still sympathisers of the IFP living in Boipatong, even at the time of your trial.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, I believe that this question has been answered.  The applicant said it was not easy to know who the people were, so he does not deny that there were sympathisers.  It's my submission that this question has been asked and answered?

MR BERGER: Is that correct, Mr Mthembu, you do not deny that there were IFP members and sympathisers living in Boipatong at the time of the attack?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know how to explain this for you to understand what I am saying here, Mr Berger, because I am saying to you - how would I have known that there people sympathising with us from the township at the time when our people were being burned.  I don't know whether you don't understand this.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, I don't think that's a fair answer, I cannot see how the applicant can know how Mr Themba Khosa would have known.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Let me rephrase the question then, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, please let's make some progress, I mean you're asking this witness to tell us how Mr Themba Khosa had that knowledge.

MR BERGER: I take that point, Chairperson.
	Did you know that it was alleged that some of the deceased in Boipatong were IFP members or sympathisers?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I have no knowledge to that effect.

MR BERGER: We know that you were at the meeting in the hostel which Themba Khosa addressed, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And Themba Khosa says at page 3244 that at that meeting it was discussed that some of the deceased in Boipatong were IFP supporters, now was that discussed at the meeting or was it not discussed at the meeting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I see it that question is very, very good for Themba Khosa.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that it was not discussed at the meeting and that Mr Themba Khosa is not telling the truth at that page 3244?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know whether he is telling the truth or not, that is his problem, I'm not involved in that.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you were at that meeting, either ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, the meeting that you're referring to, when was it held?