Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Paarl Youth Congress, this was to unite the youth, especially in Paarl.  It did not matter whether they were black or white or coloured.  The aims was to unite the youth in trying to remove the youth from the streets, including the youth in community decisions and also to educate the youth about the African National Congress.  The slogan was youth towards liberation.  We were looking closely at how the previous regime was affecting the youth as we were totally against it.

ADV LOURENS: Now, could you be more specific when you say that you were against the Government.  What, in respect of being against the Government, what were the aims of your movement?

CHAIRPERSON: As distinct from the aims of PAYCO?

ADV LOURENS: Yes, I am referring to PAYCO.  The, in respect of being against the Government, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Can you clearly ask the question again?

ADV LOURENS: Now, PAYCO was against the Government, is that correct?  The Government of the day in 1985.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, it is so.  It is so.

ADV LOURENS: Were there any specific, was there any specific plan to bring down that Government or act against the Government?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: PAYCO was a youth organisation.  As PAYCO was under the African National Congress we agreed a lot with them, the African National Congress that is.  We endeavoured as the youth that whatever the ANC said we would listen carefully and we would take their advice as sometimes it would come out that we should educate the youth in the community to fight against the Government and educate about the Government.  We tried to do this at work, at school.  This encouraged us to, this encouraged us to endeavour to make this country ungovernable under the previous regime.

ADV LOURENS: Now, how would you make the country ungovernable?  What was the plan to make the country ungovernable?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: As I said previously, there were police, soldiers everywhere.  We looked at them as the enemy, especially at Mbekweni.  We saw them as working with a particular group.  We wanted to disarm them or fight against them.  We would throw petrol bombs and stone them.  That we hoped would contribute to the country being ungovernable.  We tried to start consumer boycotts to fight business people, especially the white businessman.  We supported black businessmen more than anything.  These are some of our weapons, these were some of our weapons.  Those are the strategies we used to make the Government, this country ungovernable.  Sometimes the police would come to our township.  Our township would be at peace and they would just teargas canisters at us.  In fighting such things if we were approached in a violent manner we would retaliate in a violent manner.  We lived under a State of Emergency at the time.

ADV LOURENS: Now, you were involved with an incident in a beer hall.  Is that correct?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Could you briefly explain to the Committee what happened in that incident.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Should I at this stage talk about both the incidents where I was involved at the hall at Mbekweni or are you talking about any one particular incident?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I am speaking about the incident where a bomb was planted, but it did not go off, because there was a warning.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: The beer hall at the time was under the Administration Board.  That Adminstration Board was under the previous regime that we were against.  As the youth, it was after lunch on a Friday.  I went with members of the youth to plant a bomb at the hall.  When I was in the process of doing that I realised that there were a lot of people that were still in the hall buying.  We thought that we should wait until the people had left the hall so that people do not die, but it was significant, it was important for us that we destroy that hall.  As South Africans I am sure we are aware that alcohol is one of the major things that causes people to be, to land up in jail.
	Alcohol was sold very cheaply there and people were getting drunk and the community was being destroyed.  My brother was working at the Municipality at the time.  He did not know what was happening, but because he knew that I was politically active he came and told me at home that there were bombs at the hall.  I did not divulge to him, however, that I was one of the people who planted the bomb.  We wanted to destroy this building, because it belonged to the Government of the day and also the, our people were being destroyed through this alcohol.

ADV LOURENS: Now, is it correct that nothing, in fact, came of this incident?  No one was hurt and, in that incident and the bomb, in fact, did not go off.  Is that correct?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is correct.

ADV LOURENS: Now, ...

JUDGE WILSON: He is not asking amnesty for his having planted a bomb.

ADV LOURENS: No, no.  Now, Mr Maxam, you spoke about the fight against the Government and that violence had to be met with violence.  If you could interpret that please.  And that violence had to be met with violence.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I did not hear.  Please repeat the question.

ADV LOURENS: You spoke about the fight against the Government and that violence had to be met with violence.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I would like to give an example.  There were, there was a lot of chaos at Mbekweni as ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think you better just go slowly to allow the interpreter time to interpret what you are saying.  Alright?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Okay.  What I was trying to say is it happened a lot of times that we would, as the police were violent against us we also fought and retaliated in a violent way.  Like being teargassed with no reason at all.  Sometimes a place would be on fire and we try to put out the fire and the police would attack us, especially with teargas or they would just cause absolute chaos.  We did try to make the troops work together with the community, but that did not succeed.  Therefore, we concluded that if they were going to throw teargas at us all the time we would retaliate.

ADV LOURENS: Did you have the means to retaliate?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: We did not have weapons.  We would throw stones at them if we could and petrol bombs.

ADV LOURENS: Now, if you could cast your mind back to 15 April 1986, could you describe to the Committee what was going in Mbekweni the days before 15 April 1986.  Just before 15 April 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: What has been, all that he has been telling us now was that not what happened before?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Mr Chairman, I, from the evidence that is the general picture of conditions in Mbekweni ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: ... before then.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

ADV LOURENS: I am specifically referring just to just prior to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Immediately prior to?

ADV LOURENS: Yes, that is so, Mr Chairman.