Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR DE KOCK: No.  At that stage he was not a sworn member of the S.A.P.  He was then being used as an HQ source, some of your high profile ANC and PAC members we would bring in immediately, we're talking about people such as those, the kind of person who could have been the Minister of Defence, that was a difference that had nothing to do with discrimination.  Certain of the ANC members obviously gave us many problems and I thought that it was a way of de-stabilising Vlakplaas.

MR MAVUNDLA: Mr de Kock do you maybe know whether Mr Mabotha was receiving any income for the activities that he was doing at Vlakplaas?

MR DE KOCK: He got a monthly salary, drawn from the secret fund, equal to the rank of a constable.   What we did later, we didn't have a union there but one had to look at these things.  The members of the S.A.P. when they deployed got S&T, subsistence and travel costs, and the group of Askaris who were registered as sources began complaining because they did the same work and got not the same money, so from the secret fund we gave an equal amount as a policeman to them, to keep the harmony.

MR MAVUNDLA: You also mention that you shot Mr Mabotha twice?

MR DE KOCK: Ja.

MR MAVUNDLA: Through your observation, he immediately died.

MR DE KOCK: He was dead before he hit the ground.

MR MAVUNDLA: But why was it necessary for him to be blown with dynamite then?

MR DE KOCK: As I have told you it was the first time that such a thing happened.  If I had to give you a reason it was the destruction of any form of evidence because a body was also evidence, but I must say that it was the first time that I was involved with such a thing, and I'm not using that as an excuse.  It is not something - this was the first in my career.

MR MAVUNDLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: ;   Thank you.   Before I call on Mr Sanjay Makanjee could I just explain that I have another appointment in Cape Town.  I have to rush now to catch a plane.  My colleague, Commissioner Yasmin Sooka will assume the chairpersonship of this Commission.   She and other members of the Commission will have to decide how we are going to get through several other witnesses.  I hope that all of you will bear that in mind as we try to come to the end of this hearing.  Thank you.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Mr Chair.    I am Sanjay Makanjee acting on behalf of the Stompie Sepei family as well as the Asvat family.
 I just want to know what information you received, even if it was at a later date, concerning the death of Stompie Sepei?

MR DE KOCK: There were many reports in the media and then also the media was given by the police and whoever.  I personally didn't have a lot of information regarding him, I also didn't know him and basically I had no information on him.  I did, however, receive information at a stage and it would be difficult for me to tell where it comes from, not because I don't want to, but it could obviously influence people's lives rather seriously.  We don't want that.  I can whisper it to you but then I would also like you to protect those people and their lives. One day I have been brought into contact with Reverend Verryn.  The information I received from grassroots level at the gutters basically was that three corpses were buried of people killed by the Mandela Football Club, but again I didn't know that it was an effort to bring, to cast a negative light on people and somebody said to me they would bring me into contact with Reverend Verryn.  We did meet at the Carlton Hotel.  I was interested in getting hold of the four corpses.   Winnie was not for me the argument of who killed them, let's first get hold of the four corpses.  He personally although he was a very pleasant man was very introvert.  I told him I was reluctant, he didn't want to speak to me.   I personally thought he was very strict and straightforward and I thought he was very devoted to his job but that was, that however was only a temporary meeting and I didn't immediately want to ask him about the corpses and this is not the way it's done.  And afterwards when I wanted to follow it up, he, all contact was broken.   I personally thought he was scared, the little bit of information I could gain I tried to follow up.
 However, with regard to Stompie Sepei I had no information on him apart from what I have read in the media.  At a later stage at the Adriaan Vlok police station there was a short conversation with me and perhaps it will be said later that the name of Stompie Sepei was mentioned to me, namely that Mabotha was the chief evidence, witness in the Stompie Sepei case.

MR MAKANJEE: I just have two more questions Madame Chair.  One is a general question and I wonder if you could assist me in this.   The impression one gains from listening to all the previous witnesses who were all members of security branch at some stage or the other is that the Soweto security branch unlike all the other security branches in the country was a model police station.  None of the officers committed any torture, none of them witnessed any torture, they followed every possible procedure.
 Now in your view, you worked with members of the security branch in Soweto.  I just want to ask you what is your impression on those comments they've made?

MR DE KOCK: There were individuals in the minority in the security police who were gentlemen, there were a few Generals but you were not selected for that because you had a degree and because you did Red Cross work;  you were either dedicated to the National Party, a total patriot, or you could have forgotten about that job and, in general, they were also looking at good investigating officers, but assaults were not restricted to the security police itself.  Murder and Robbery it is legendary and I think they are even worse than the security police, perhaps they could even compete at the Olympic Games.
 Then you also had the vehicle branches who I followed them closely as a young policeman.  After three or four months of service I saw that they strangled a man at Benoni because they wanted information and they would go to all lengths to get it.  Today that is still the case.  If one reads the papers, it is still going on.  I nevertheless leave that here but that's not what it is all about.  
 The security policemen were dedicated, I got to know many of them as good people, some of them had compassion, some of them less and others had none, so I think one should look at this in a general way.   
 To come back on the question of the situation, if any of our wives were present and experienced what Mrs Mandela experienced, they would have done the same.  Her husband had been banned, she couldn't see him.  Children grew up around her, they couldn't see him. She has been banned, she has been trampled and now she's jumping up and down and she scares everybody in the country.   That takes guts and I am not trying - she also makes me as - scares me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee do you have ...(intervention)

MR MAKANJEE: Just one more question Madam Chair.  This is concerning the Asvat family.  I would just like to know if you have any information with regard to the death of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat?

MR DE KOCK: No, except that if I could compare his investigation to other investigations.  I find it strange no murders of a high profile nature took longer than 24 hours in this country and the solution to that and without at least finding leads I'm not trying to break down any person here.  The only other aspect with regard to Dr Asvat that I've read in the papers and also in a number of other black magazines is that he was actually a very good man.  He spent more time amongst the poor than at home.  Let me put it that way;  that is all I know about Dr Asvat.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya are you going to be next?