Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-02

DR RANDERA: If I can just stop you, you ....(tape ends)  What happened to you subsequently and the long term effects that you still suffer from after those days of detention and torture?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: We managed to escape after bribing Greeff. He opened the gates and we got out.  Wolpe and Goldreich went to Hillbrow, Mosi and I went to Fordsburg and we were in hiding for approximately five weeks.  Eventually I managed to get out of the country through Botswana.  I went to Tanzania.
 When I got to Dar-es-Salaam I found that I was - well other people noticed this, I didn't realise it myself but I was suffering from epilepsy.  The movement sent me to numerous places for treatment, including Moscow, Germany, Czechoslovakia, Cairo and the one report, unfortunately I don't have it with me, which I got back from - which I got from Moscow where I stayed for about six weeks, the first time, where they actually saw the epileptic fits, where they witnessed it and they carried out numerous tests and they found that they were of the opinion anyway that when I had been - when they had shocked me, used the shock treatment on me a certain portion of my central nervous system had been damaged and that was causing the epilepsy.  It's 33 years now and I am still on medication.  
 But I need to just say that it wasn't only the Railway Police who were responsible.  There were two special branch policemen whom I can remember were in the room when I was 
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being tortured.  One was a Lieutenant Coetzee, he was a lieutenant at that time.  I don't know what his position is now.  And the other one was a Lieutenant van Wyk.  I would like to see these two, if they are alive, and get them to come and give evidence before the Commission.  And that is my main purpose.  I am not here to try to get any compensation for what has happened to me.  I think one needs to get them to come before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and also some of the Railway Policemen.  Unfortunately I can't remember their names.  
 I think basically that's my story.  I don't know if you have any questions.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much for your clear story, an honest story, because I'm sure it's - like you say it's the first time that you are actually admitting to these bombings that took place in those days and that you yourself were a member of MK.
 I just want to ask you a few questions before I ask the Chairperson to take over again. You mentioned that there were a number of doctors that examined you after the torture but you don't have the reports.  Can you remember the names of some - on your behalf?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: No I have no idea, but I am sure - unfortunately Harold Wolpe died a few months ago, he would have had the records and I am certain that there must be some records somewhere in the archives of the State.

DR RANDERA: My second question is to go back again, sorry, in your statement you refer to the hessian that was covered over your body and tied by your knees and you mentioned a form of torture that also took place, can you just tell us a little more there?  I understand that you were swung
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around and....

ABDULHAY JASSAT: After they had tortured me they also, for example, besides pushing me out of the window, before they had done that, they had lifted me by my ankles, two 6.5 feet, 7 foot policemen, bulky chaps, had lifted me by my ankles and swung me like a pendulum and every now and again my head would be knocking the ground. I don't know whether that had any effect on my brain, regards the epilepsy.  But they did various things like that.  I can't remember all the details.  It's a very, very long time ago and one tends to try to forget some of these things, because you want to start living your life.  You can't continue living in the past.

DR RANDERA: Two more questions.  One is it is remarkable that within those dark and difficult days that there were policemen that were willing to assist.  You mentioned that there was an African policeman who was a member of the ANC, do you remember his name by any chance?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: I only know his first name, his name was Ben.  I can't remember his surname, unfortunately.

DR RANDERA: And my last question relates to reparation.  I know you have said that you don't want anything, but we are entrusted to develop a policy towards reparation, are there any recommendations that you would like to make that goes into that policy?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: I think I would leave it basically to the Commission itself to deal with that aspect. I don't think I am qualified enough to deal with that matter, except for the fact that some of these people, or the perpetrators need to be brought either to justice or they need to come and appear before the Commission.
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DR RANDERA: Thank you Abdulhay.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Just before I ask my fellow panellists if they have questions to ask, could I appeal to the gallery please.  The only cameras that are allowed here are the TV cameras and if anybody else is using a camera could you please desist from that.  Thank you very much.  Any questions.  Wynand Malan.

MR MALAN: Mr Jassat you also mentioned in your statement that there were further medical tests done in Dar-es-Salaam and Mosia, is that Moscow, I wanted to know what this was, this Mosia which is typed here in the report, do you have any of those reports available to us?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: I am not certain.  I will try to look for the report which I got from Moscow which was in, actually initially it was in Russian which I had translated into English, and you know I've been moving around.  I was in Dar-es-Salaam for some time and then I went to London and then I came back here, so I am not certain whether I've got the documents with me here, unfortunately.  But if I can find the documents, I will try to make an effort to find them, I will try to pass them on to the Commission.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.  And then just a second question, you will probably know that the Act enjoins us to find out what the circumstances, the background, the broader picture was, in terms of your involvement at that early days, in MK, would you be prepared to assist our investigators further in terms of written statements?  I don't want any evidence here, to enable us to find out more about perhaps what people were thinking they were reacting against, so we can look into the perspectives and motives of all the alleged perpetrators.
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ABDULHAY JASSAT: (...indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Hugh Lewin.

MR LEWIN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Jassat I am interested in the question you've raised about the magistrates, you say you appeared before the magistrates where you were discharged, subsequently you made several complaints under the 90 days about - to the magistrate about your conditions, what was the attitude of the magistrates themselves?  I mean do you feel that they realised of the conditions that you were in and did they make any other statements about that?