Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: We will now hear the application of Magome Freddie Tladi, amnesty reference AM2043/96.  The appearances are as for the previous matter.  Mr Tladi, are your full names Magome Freddie Tladi?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is correct.

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: ;   (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Please sit down.  Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  My first question Mr Tladi is the incident for which you apply for amnesty took place on the 20th of August 1992 at Maroshane.  At that time, were you a member or a supporter of any political organisation?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, I was a follower.

MR RICHARD: And if so, which organisation did you support?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I was a follower of the African National Congress.

MR RICHARD: And how did you support the ANC, what did you do to support them?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I was attending rallies, consumer boycotts and strikes.

MR RICHARD: Now, in your area of Maroshane, who were, what was the ANC structure, who was the Chairperson, who were the Committee members, who held what offices?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It was Rinco Masimola.

MR RICHARD: Any others?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It was Rinco Masimola, I don't remember the others.

MR RICHARD: The next question is where is Maroshane, which is the nearest significant town or village to Maroshane?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It is near Groblersdal.

MR RICHARD: Was Maroshane part of one of the old so-called Independent States like Lebowa, Venda or kwaNdebele?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, in that area, where there still traditional structures in the sense that there was a (indistinct), sub-chiefs?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, in that area, did people still believe at that time, in 1992, in witchcraft?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, they did.

MR RICHARD: Now I am correct that you have been sitting, waiting for you matter to be heard for two days now?  Is that not correct?  You have been waiting in this hall?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I was not present yesterday.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now when I use the word moloi and ngaka, do you understand what I mean?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Would you please tell us what a moloi is?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: A witch is somebody who is against the people's rights, he is the person who is suppressing people's rights.

MR RICHARD: In what way?  How does a  moloi suppress people's rights?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He doesn't want people to do progressive things.

MR RICHARD: How does a moloi prevent people doing progressive things, what does a moloi use to prevent people doing progressive things?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He uses muti.

MR RICHARD: What else besides suppressing rights, can a moloi in your belief system do, can a moloi do harm, kill somebody, make somebody sick?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Even if he does not kill, he can make a person to be ill.

MR RICHARD: Now, for what reasons would you go and see a ngaka, a sangoma?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: We will go to a sangoma to find out what was happening.

MR RICHARD: And how would a sangoma find out what was happening?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He is able to see or to read the divine bones.

MR RICHARD: And then if there is trouble in a neighbourhood, caused by a moloi or something,  how would the ngaka, sorry the ngaka correct, what would the ngaka say?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: May you please repeat the question, I do not understand the question?

MR RICHARD: I have asked you the question that if a member in a village such as Maroshane wanted to know why something was wrong, how would that person go about it, you said they would go to a sangoma which is also known as an ngaka.  That person then would use a method of divination such as bone throwing and come up with an answer.  What sorts of answers would the ngaka come up with?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He will give answers such as confirmation that that person is a witch.

MR RICHARD: Now on the 20th of August 1992 as is apparent from the record, a meeting was called in Maroshane to discuss a problem, what was the problem?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: The problem concerned the death of youths in the village.

MR RICHARD: These youths in the village, from what did they die?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Some of them would become ill and die.

MR RICHARD: And others?  You say some became ill and died, what happened to others?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is how I know how some of them died.

MR RICHARD: At page 21 of the bundle, when the Magistrate who convicted you, gave judgement and sentence, he made a comment, it was further said that this was during the same period when four young people had died mysteriously.  Do you remember that?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now, were you aware of any political affiliation of that these four young people had?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I only know of two youths, but I don't know how the other two youths died.

MR RICHARD: My question was did you know of the political, not method of death, the political affiliation of any of these youths that had died mysteriously?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I only knew one.

MR RICHARD: What was his political affiliation or membership?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He was the supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Now, it is said that these people had died mysteriously, why do you say the deaths were mysterious?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: The question is in the criminal proceedings, when you were sentenced to imprisonment, you said that either you or the community found the fact that four people had died mysterious, that they had died mysteriously, my question is, shy did you and others believe that their death was mysterious or strange?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: What was mysterious about that was because we were with those people and the following day, we learnt that they were dead.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Weren't those people sick at the time you were with them and subsequently learnt that they had died?

INTERPRETER: Honourable Chairperson, I really do not know what the applicant is saying, may I request that he become more audible.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tladi, you must speak, take that microphone closer to where you are sitting and then you must try to lift your voice, speak a bit louder so that the Interpreter can hear you in the box there.  If you don't speak into the microphone, then he cannot hear, that box, you cannot hear from inside there.  You can only hear on the headset, so you must speak loud so that he can hear you please.  Do you understand?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

ADV SANDI: Do you want me to repeat the question?

INTERPRETER: Please Chair.

ADV SANDI: When you were with these people the night before you heard that they had died, that is the next day, weren't these people sick or were they in a perfectly healthy condition?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They were healthy.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Where was this meeting held?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: This meeting was held at the church.

MR RICHARD: Who attended the meeting?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: There were many people who attended that meeting.

MR RICHARD: Were they members or supporters of any political organisation?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Some of them were members of the ANC and others were just followers of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Did you, how did they call the meeting, did you put up postcards or placards or was it spread by word of mouth?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: We put the placards and some of them were put at the shops.

MR RICHARD: What was talked about at the meeting?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: We were talking about witchcraft and the death of one of the youths.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, in your placards, who did you say was invited to come and attend the meeting?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: The youth were invited on those placards.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.