Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-15

JAN JOHANNES NEL: I don't believe this is in the bar.  It looks like it could be in the dining hall, if I look at the table, it looks like it could be in the dining hall.

MR PRIOR: Oh, I see here right at the bottom.

CHAIRPERSON: It is marked (v).

MR LAX: If you look on the plan, you would see (v), it is somewhere near the kitchen I seem to remember from looking at the plan.

CHAIRPERSON: Kitchen into dining room.

MR PRIOR: I am indebted to the Committee, thank you, I have no further questions, thank you Mr Nel.

MR PRIOR: .

CHAIRPERSON: You may be excused.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, that is all the evidence I have at this stage.  I intend calling a ballistics expert or whoever attended the scene, to give us a better picture regarding the trajectory of bullets, etc and the damage to the out buildings but that person is not available today and I think to call such a person at short notice without properly preparing, would also not do justice to the matter.
	Mr Chairman, I don't know, we talked around adjourning the matter till May.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, at the moment certain members of the Committee would like to recall the applicant, Madasi in the light of the subsequent evidence.  Could we please have Mr Madasi up here?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: You have been present here, and you have heard the evidence given by Mr Diaho-Monaheng and the questions he was asked?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I heard sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You also as I understand it, consulted with your Attorney about the plan that has been put up and about certain photographs showing the building next door to the Hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give any explanation as to how those bullet marks came onto that building?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there seems to be a disturbance, could we maybe adjourn for a short while?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will adjourn for a short while.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: (still under oath)

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I cannot remember because I was inside the Hotel, I can't remember or I don't know if a member of the unit shot at that building.
	I was inside the building, I don't even remember if somebody shot after the withdrawal signal.  The final shot I remember is the signal that was given to withdrawal.  That is the only way I can answer your question.

CHAIRPERSON: That is a perfectly fair answer.  You only shot inside the building, you yourself?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes sir, I was inside the building.

MR LAX: Sorry, you haven't understood the question properly.  The question was you only shot inside the building, you didn't shoot when you came out again, or while you were going in?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I shot whilst I was inside.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of gun did you have?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: R5.

ADV SANDI: Did you shoot at any stage whilst you were outside the Hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't remember sir.

ADV GCABASHE: And the motor vehicle, if you have a look at those photo's, there is a blue van and its window has been shot.  You again wouldn't know how that damage was occasioned?

MR LAX: It is photograph 2 on the first page, yes sorry.

ADV GCABASHE: Do you remember what might have happened there?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As I said, I was outside, it was at night.  Everything happened so fast, within minutes.  Perhaps members of the unit shot, I don't know, a lot of time has elapsed.  I hope I have answered you.

CHAIRPERSON: But you, we have been told, I want to know if you agree, that you and Mr Diaho-Monaheng walked down from the Hotel together, to your vehicle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: From the Hotel to the car, yes, that is so.  We stood in front of the car, and then Nqeba came, got into the car, and we drove off.

CHAIRPERSON: So you watched him coming to join you?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, we were watching him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree that the car was parked in front of the Hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, the car was parked right opposite the place that we were going to attack.  However, I could never remember the specific angle.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Then there is just one other aspect that hasn't got anything to do with these pictures.
	If you look at your paragraph 10 and 11, of your affidavit, where you say that you were informed that your comrade Ntintili had been arrested, and that you must retreat from that area.  Can you just explain that to me, what was meant by you must retreat from that area and who said you must retreat from that area?
	Sorry, I put two questions in one, if you could just deal with them one at a time.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What is the first question Ma'am?

ADV GCABASHE: Okay, who said you must retreat from that area?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The comrades after I had received the arms, the next morning the comrades went to the phone, I gave them instructions to go and phone and find out whether they could find Scomiso telephonically to report about the arms.
	I then instructed Lungesi to accompany Nqeba to go and phone together.  They came back, saying that they spoke to the comrade.  They received information that comrade Ntintili was already arrested, that is when we retreated and went to the Transkei.
	Fortunately Nqeba had relatives in the Transkei, we then went to stay there.  
	What is the second question Ma'am?

ADV GCABASHE: So you retreated from that particular area, the instruction was not to retreat if I might use that word, from the project, it was not to cancel the project, that was not the instruction?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all, we are soldiers, we also have brains, we use initiation, we use flexibility, it applies to APLA.  As a Commander of the Unit, I took an initiative to make sure that the plans go well.
	When we found out that the comrade has relatives in the Eastern Cape, that gave us encouragement that we can continue with the job.  We stayed at the place where the comrade had accommodation.  That he came with the information that he had relatives in Mdantsane, that worked well for us as a Unit, and as a Unit Commander, I reported to my immediate superior to tell them that we have accommodation, we can continue with the operation.
	I hope I have answered you.

ADV GCABASHE: Not quite.  The question was did you get an instruction to cancel the operation?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I hear you now, Ma'am.  I got a report from other comrades that comrade Ntintili was arrested and that we should retreat.  Fortunately comrade Nqeba had relatives around.  I made plans to contact other comrades to find out more and tell them about the information that we had gotten.
	I did not say that we should retreat, however, I gave them information that comrade Ntintili was arrested.
	Boers do kill, we did not know what was going on.  We wanted to make sure that we are not arrested.  That is what happened.

ADV GCABASHE: Then we go to paragraph 11 where you start off by saying, as we were determined to hit the target.  That determination was driven by your superiors, not by yourself, is that right or wrong?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Please explain your question.

MR LAX: Maybe you should ask the question in a slightly different way.  What do you mean by those words, as we were determined to hit the target, what exactly are you getting at?  What are you trying to convey about putting that in your affidavit?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: When I say what?

ADV GCABASHE: In paragraph 11, you start off by saying as we were determined to hit the target, my question is that determination, was it controlled or driven by your superiors, that is the High Command in Transkei or by yourselves as a Unit?  Can you explain what you mean by these words?