Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was convinced that Mr Walus would in fact not to do that, and that I will have ample opportunity to plan the next step.

JUDGE WILSON: But you did nothing for a week to plan the next step.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you tell Mr Walus that you hoped chaos would result as a result of your and his murder of Chris Hani and that the objective was to take advantage of the chaos in order to take over the government? Did you tell him that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you tell him that you thought that the murder would awaken the leadership of Afrikanerdom?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I did, Mr Chairman. In fact, that was during our discussions the whole objective, he was fully aware of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to ask you a question, Mr Derby-Lewis.  How is it that you and Mr Walus took it upon yourselves to be the saviours of Afrikanerdom if their leaders of the various political parties of Afrikaners, were not prepared to do anything about it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I believed that the other leaders were reading the situation incorrectly.  That they were allowing themselves to be misled by Mr De Klerk and his regime, when it was patently obvious to me that De Klerk was busy with the betrayal of the Afrikaner people.  It was clear to me at all times, long before many other people became aware of this.

GEORGE BIZOS: You saw yourself as a prophet of sorts?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not, I did not, Mr Chairman. I just saw myself as being someone able to assess the situation, all things taken into consideration.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now this business of waking up the Afrikaner leaders in order that there should be chaos and to fill the gap created by the chaos, Mr FW de Klerk was the President of the country, was he not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: The commander in chief of the Army.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: In charge of the police?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you have throughout your evidence told us how much contempt, if not hatred, you had for Mr FW de Klerk?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: For his behaviour, yes, Mr Chairman, not for him as a person.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you wanted a power vacuum to come about, for you and like-minded Afrikaners that you purport to speak on behalf of, the natural target would have been Mr FW de Klerk and not Hani.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Power was in De Klerk's hands at the time.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, nobody would have gone to the trouble of causing chaos to avenge Mr FW de Klerk's death.  Who in his wildest dreams could ever picture that? I certainly couldn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, he was in power, he controlled the Army, he controlled the Police, he controlled the structures of State and you were looking for a gap to take power,  wasn't he the natural victim?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because we knew with the very make-up of the man, that he wouldn't be able to handle a chaotic situation in the country. And  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: No, you don't understand my question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Maybe I don't, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you wanted to create a power vacuum, you should have gone for the man that was in power.  And he wasn't even on your list.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman - Mr Chairman, it was patently obvious to me and to many informed people, that the real power was being transferred over to this power-sharing experiment which De Klerk had dreamed up. He was no longer in power.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, let's take it from another aspect, Mr Derby-Lewis. Do you agree that you intended to kill Mr Mandela?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You say so in your statement, don't you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't say so in my statement, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: When the list was drawn, wasn't he number one?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I didn't draw that list, and I have stated categorically that I have never drawn that list.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who drew the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Arthur Kemp, as was testified in the trial, and he drew it out of a much larger list, Mr Chairman, and I had nothing to do with the selection of the names. It was in fact, a coincidence that Hani's address was on that list.

JUDGE WILSON: Who numbered the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Walus, as I mentioned in my earlier testimony, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was number one on the basis of his numbering?  I'm sorry, if you finished, Judge.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, if you have a look at the list it states clearly that page 1 is A1, page 2  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was number one to be eliminated?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the name of Mr Nelson Mandela appeared on the page marked A1.

GEORGE BIZOS: On the list Mr Mandela was number one for elimination,  correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I repeat, Mr Chairman, Mr Mandela's name was on that list and the list is clearly marked A1.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Why was his name on that list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I think you must ask somebody else, I didn't draw up that list, Mr Chairman. (Laughter).
Mr Chairman, with respect, how many times do I have to repeat the fact that I did not draw up that list of addresses?  And it was obvious from the testimony in the trial it was not done.

GEORGE BIZOS: How did Mr Hani come to be number three?  If number one was not Mr Mandela and number two Mr Slovo?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I explained that we numbered these people in terms of priority and in terms of their enmity, their degree of enmity to this Conservative Party and the cause of the Afrikaner.  Mr Chairman, let me also go further then say that I also testified earlier that if I had anything to do with drawing up that list, and it was going to be a hit list and not an address list, I can assure you there would have been other names on this list other than the majority of names which were included in that list. I did not compose this list.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Walus says in his statement
"Weapon and the list was handed over by Clive Derby-Lewis."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You knew that Mr Mandela's name was on it when you handed over the list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: The next sentence is
"Reconnaissance was also done on Mandela's house."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I knew nothing about that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: "I thought that the old goat was not worth it."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's certainly not my statement, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Walus have any reason to lie to the police immediately after his arrest?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I can't speak for Mr Walus.

GEORGE BIZOS: "All writing on the list was done by myself on the list. Clive only said to work sensibly."
Did you tell him that he must work sensibly?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He had the full responsibility, Mr Chairman, for ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Full responsibility for what?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: For the attack and I could probably have said to him act sensibly. I assumed he was going to act sensibly anyway.

GEORGE BIZOS: But now ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, can Mr Bizos just tell me to which document he is actually referring in which bundle?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  R4, page 88.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: R4, page 88.  Okay.  Yes, I have it, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see that I have read it correctly?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I see that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You can't furnish an explanation as to why he should have made any wrong statements in relation to you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I can't, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now will you please have a look at the list that has Mr Mandela's house's picture on?

JUDGE WILSON: Which one are you referring to, Mr Bizos?