Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MS THABETHE: You say, between 1990 and 1991 the community called people, about six people you said, who were going to be questioned about their affiliation with the police.  Is that correct?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Was Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena one of those people who were called?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes.  They were among those.

MS THABETHE: And my instructions, Mr Gqiba, are that Elsie had a boyfriend who was a policeman.  It would be common cause that she would be seen in his vehicle.  Did you know anything about this?  Did you have such information?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I had that information.

MS THABETHE: So was it strange if you, was it strange if she was seen travelling in her boyfriend's car, who happened to be a policeman?

STANLEY GQIBA: By then the people of Boipatong would have kill you instantaneously if one was seen in the company of police.  Police were not permitted in the township.  Their houses had already been burned and some of them had fled.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe I probably understand his evidence differently.  He did not at any stage of his evidence say that the reason why Ms Mokoena and Ndumo were taken to the garage to answer accusations levelled against them, he never said those accusations were in relation to them having been seen in the vehicles driven by the police.  His evidence is that they were accused of having been seen in vehicles driven by amongst others, Getisi, who is not a policeman, which vehicles were used by the likes of Getisi to shoot at people in Sebokeng.  Getisi is not alleged to have been a policeman.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair I am open to correction.  I thought he had said Getisi and policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't have that in my notes.  My notes only refer to people who were driving vehicles that were shooting at people, and Getisi being one of those.  There was no reference to a police or a police vehicle in that regard.  However, ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Can I clarify it with him?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) you can clarify that aspect.

MS THABETHE: Mr Gqiba can you please clarify whether you said they were called to be questioned about them being seen in Getisi and in policeman vehicles.  Did you actually say that?

STANLEY GQIBA: I cannot speak about all of them.  They had different allegations against them.  Some of them were seen in the company of the police and some of them were seen in the company of Getisi.  At the time it was known that the police were assisting Getisi's group, so that if a person was seen in the company of the police such a person would be assumed to be collaborating with Getisi and his group.

MS THABETHE: With regard to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena specifically, would you remember what charges were made against them.?

STANLEY GQIBA: I cannot recall.

MS THABETHE: Earlier on you had said you were aware that Elsie Mokoena had a relationship with one policeman.  Did you know this policeman?

STANLEY GQIBA: I am saying I cannot recall what charges were placed on him at, on her at the time of the accusation and the meeting, but the one that was accused of going out with a police person is a friend.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what you said, when you were asked this question by Ms Moloisane.  You responded to that question by saying that they were accused of being seen in vehicles driven by people who would shoot at the local community, and that Getisi was one of those who would be seen with the persons against whom an enquiry was held, during 90 and 91.

STANLEY GQIBA: I think the whole lot of the police and Getisi were seen as one bunch of people.

MR LAX: Just to clarify something here, Mr Gqiba.  Ms Thabethe had put it to you that Elsie had had this relationship with a policeman, and you confirmed that you knew about that relationship.  You confirmed it in reply to her question.  It wasn't in relation to anyone being punished at that stage.  That came in a later question she put afterwards.  Is that not right?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I did confirm that.

CHAIRPERSON: My questioning had nothing to with what you had already confirmed to Ms Thabethe.  I just wanted to get clarity on what you alter on said, that you did not know, because she asked you whether you knew, she asked you on what charges did they appear before your enquiry in 90, 91, and you said you didn't know.  It was in relation to that that I then reminded you what you had earlier on said in respect to the charges that you said you knew, and then that was those charges were in relation to having been seen in the company of Getisi and those who drive vehicles that would shoot at the community in Sebokeng.

STANLEY GQIBA: The mistake that I made is that I confused the information about these people being seen in the company of Getisi and this one girl who was in love with a policeman.  I answered that way, confusing the two as a result.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  I was asking you if you knew the policeman that Elsie Mokoena was in love with.

STANLEY GQIBA: No, I did not.

MS THABETHE: It's my instructions that he used to come in the township and he was in good relation with the comrades.  What do you have to say to that?

STANLEY GQIBA: I don't know which comrades.  I don't know.

MR LAX: Well perhaps if you tell him the name of the name he might know who you are talking about.

MS THABETHE: Mr Gqiba do you know Johannes Msime who was a policeman?

STANLEY GQIBA: No I don't know him.

MS THABETHE: Earlier on in your evidence you said that when Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi came to you at the, what is it, stokvel?

MR LAX: It was the Hollywood club.

MS THABETHE: Hollywood Club.  Thank you.  Thank you Member of the Committee.  They did not tell you what they were going to do with whoever they had captured.  Is that correct?  Do you remember saying that?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, I remember, they did not say that they were going to kill them.

MS THABETHE: You actually said they did not tell you anything about what they were going to do.  That was your evidence.  Can you explain then why, on what basis, did you say they must do a clean job so that no-one can chase them, if they didn't tell you anything about what they were going to do?

STANLEY GQIBA: They had said that these people are informers, and it was known what was going to be done to informers.  I already knew that they were going to be killed.

MS THABETHE: And then you also state that later on after the incident was committed, you met ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I, before you proceed, Ms Thabethe I'm sorry to do this, haven't you earlier on stated that when they came to you and told you about their captives and the fact that they were enemies of the people, you reminded them of the stance that you as an organisation usually takes, that is to verify the information before they can act upon that information.  Wasn't that your earlier evidence?

STANLEY GQIBA: I did not say it to them then, but I knew they knew this, that they had to be sure and verify the information.

CHAIRPERSON: That is your evidence.  That's the evidence you gave us.  That came from your lips said.  And let me remind you it came after you had recalled what else they had said to you on the persistence of Ms Moloisane and you then remembered that they said that the person they were having as captives were persons who had been sought by the community for a long time and were persons who were alleged to have been spying and passing on information about the members of your community to the police.  Then you went on to say you told them that a person, or a member of a unit, who alleges that persons are informers, should ensure that that kind of information is verified before it is acted upon.  That was your evidence.  I am not misquoting you.