Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-20

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I just want to find this out.  While you may not have seen him with Security Policemen or any apartheid instrument, did you get to know that Mr Twala was an Askari through your surveillance or information gathering mechanisms?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes, we ended up knowing that because immediately after they defected, the ANC prepared a statement, after they left the camps without permission of the leadership.  Some went to Kenya, some went to the UN embassies.  They wanted refugee status.
	At the time there were no High Commissioners.  When they got to South Africa, they were all detained for a month or two, under Section 29.  They then went out to the press conference.  I could not believe that someone, after being arrested by the Security Police, could freely go to a press conference like that.
	That was a first.  I don't even know who had organised the press conference for them.  However, what they said was really bad.  They declared to the public that they were not ANC members.  How can you tell people that you were now members of the new ANC, that you were no longer under O.R. Thambo.
	Anybody in our position, we thought that perhaps there was a coup, because even in exile when there was a mutiny, they wanted a new leadership by force.  Then they come here and refer to themselves as the new ANC, it was the same thing that they wanted to do back in the camps.  They wanted change within the ANC structures in a violent way.
	I don't know whether they had consulted with the ANC leadership back home, that they had come here and opened a new leadership, new ANC.  We were never briefed, we would be briefed therefore if they had done so by the ANC, that we should leave them alone.  We did not get that report, therefore to defend and protect the comrades around here, we decided to eliminate them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know, not necessarily personally, but even perhaps by way of information gathering, that Mr Twala contributed to the upkeep of apartheid?

MFANELO MATSHAYA: Yes.  I heard when they were being interviewed on television, they were supporting it.  They were supporting apartheid, because propaganda was part of the apartheid system.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You are excused.  He is excused, he can take a seat behind there.
WITNESS EXCUSED
	Mr Mapoma, have you any objections to the other two applicants relying on the evidence of Mr Matshaya?

MR MAPOMA: No sir, I have no objection because I don't have pertinent questions which are directly dependent on those.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you want to add anything to the evidence thus far?

MR MAPOMA: No, nothing to add sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing?

MR MAPOMA: No sir.  Excuse me Mr Chairman, I think I will have to consult with the families of the victims and also with Mr Dyasophu in particular because at the time when I consulted with him before, he sounded that he won't have to testify, but I guess perhaps he needs to testify after I consult with him, if need be.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not sure whether he is going to testify or not?

MR MAPOMA: No, I am not sure at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: One would have appreciated if you were sure before we started, but any way I am going to adjourn for a few minutes so that you can establish what you want to do.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn.
COMMITEE  ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.  Mr Chairman, before I lead evidence from the side of the victims, I would like to get an indication whether the applicant's case has now been closed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.  Mr Chairman, may I call Nicholas Dyasophu.

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: (sworn states)

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.    Mr Dyasophu, is it correct that you were once a member of Umkonto We Sizwe?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You have heard the applicants now applying for amnesty, they have given evidence here indicating the reasons why they apply for amnesty and they have said that you were one of those who defected from the ANC, do you confirm that you defected from the ANC?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: No, I don't agree with that.

MR MAPOMA: What is it that actually happened, can you explain this?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Just to summarise, what happened is first of all I don't know when it is that we were supposed to have defected, whether still in exile, I don't get that.
	What I want to clarify is in the press conference that we had, we had not intended to have that press conference at all.   What prompted us to have that press conference was the statement by leader Walter Sisulu.

INTERPRETER: Could the witness stick to one language if possible, either English or Xhosa?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: I would like to use English and I would like to change this to English.  When we called for that press conference, it was because on arrival at Jan Smuts, it so happened that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand, I last heard you did not intend to have a press conference.

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Yes, initially we did not intend to have any press conference, but then what prompted us to have that press conference, was the statement by leader comrade Sisulu, to the effect that we are Askaris and we are being detained, it is not the genuine detention, we were just people of the Security, we were just going there for debriefing.
	Now, that really didn't go down well with us, because we knew that the leader himself, Walter Sisulu, knew the facts because he had been to Lusaka, he had been to Tanzania and whilst we were there, and people told them the truth, what was actually happening there in exile.
	When we come here, he says, I think he was countering us, but what he implied was that we were informers and that didn't, we didn't like it because actually when somebody calls somebody an informer, in other words he is saying that he should be killed, he is giving out an order.  That was confirmed recently by, just now by Matshaya that once a leader says somebody is an informer, that person, in other words you are declaring a death against that person.
	Now, we had to clear our names so the press conference was a name clearing exercise and another thing, we called for a Commission of Enquiry, that was another main thing.  We called for a Commission of Enquiry into the atrocities that had been happening in exile.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Now at the time when you were on the press conference, were you still members of the ANC?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: No, we were not members of the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: When did you cease to be members of the ANC?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Actually ANC we never ceased as such to be members of the ANC, but what happened is that when our lives were threatened, whilst we were still in Tanzania, when our lives were threatened because we saw that we were going to be jailed again and this time we knew, we were going to die, we decided that we should run away.  Run away to Dar-es-Salaam were we declared ourselves as refugees.
	But now, the condition was that we should first resign.  We told them that we are not actually resigning from the ANC because we see that ANC is our organisation, it is a people's organisation of South Africa.  Actually it is just individuals who are doing all this things, but these individuals are in powerful places, positions, so making the whole thing seem as if it is the ANC, but we know that it is not the ANC because it is not the policy of the ANC that such things should happen.
	Let me just finish up, so what happened is that they said they cannot allow us to be refugees, unless we resign, so when we actually resigned, it was enforced upon us.  I hope I am clear.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Now, you have indicated that there are some areas which you disagree with Mr Matshaya on when he was giving his evidence.  Can you just explain your side of the story regarding those areas which you disagree with him?