Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MR MOTATA: Mr Motlokwa, because these guns were either given to you by the sectional commander or the other commander, why should you go to the civic to replace such guns when you had, from what you said, money to make purchases of ammunition and guns for yourselves?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: May you please repeat your question Sir?

MR MOTATA: I say, I want to use my exact words, that you have given evidence that you had these commanders whom  - street commanders and sectional commanders, whom were getting R30 from the community to buy guns for you people.
	Now when these are taken by the police or you lose some of your ammunition, why should you now go to the civic association to replace those guns when you have in effect collected money from the community?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They received money from the community, it was meant to buy guns, it was not meant to replace guns.

MR MALAN: May I just ask, the R30 that you said household were paying, were they paying that monthly?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We would ask once, we did not that money on a monthly basis but they were not contributing, all of them, but those who were willing they would contribute that R30.

MR MADASA: So what you are saying is, money was collected by the civic on a need basis, when there was a need by the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MADASA: Now, let's come to the patrols ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry to interrupt Mr Madasa, may I just make sure again.  The question of Mr Madasa was that money was collected on a needs basis, when there was a need with the SDU.  The question, was it collected by the SDU then?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was collected by the street committees.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MADASA: Now, during the patrols, did you as SDU's experience problems and if yes, of what nature?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: During the patrols we encountered problems.

MR MADASA: Can you give examples of such problems?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I'd put it under general.  If people, the committee has made a decision that they do not want to see a person roaming the streets at a particular time, when we patrol and see those kind of people then we would explain to you, the community that we have encountered these kind of people.  If we ask him something and he doesn't respond it is very difficult to go nearer that person.

MR MADASA: Let me clarify this.  Did you at any stage as SDU's ...[indistinct] with the community, impose a curfew during your patrols?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MADASA: And what were the time periods during which the curfew was in operation?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The time put by the community was 9 o'clock.

MR MADASA: 9 o'clock, morning or evening?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: 9p.m. Sir.

MR MADASA: Till what time?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Until 4 o'clock a.m. because the taxis start roaming the roads at 4 o'clock in the morning.

MR MADASA: Who decided on this curfew?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: All members of the community took that decision because people are killed, are murdered and during the funerals people are shot and therefore the community took a decision that as from 9 o'clock people should not roam in the street.

MR MADASA: Was it your duty then to maintain the curfew?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, that was our responsibility in consent with the community.

MR MALAN: Could I again just ask a question here just to clarify for me.  The community that were taking all these decisions, were they meeting regularly?  How did you interact with what you're referring to all through your evidence as the community?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: As I said before, we would meet with the community if we encounter problems.  We would tell the sectional committee and the sectional committee would call the community to explain our problems.

MR MOTATA: But I suppose Mr Motlokwa, before you could tell the community what your problems are or problems which you encounter, there should have been a meeting where for instance, it was agreed that a formation such as yourselves, SDU's, should be in existence?
	And I suppose my learned friend, my colleague wants to know, when did this start and when was this meeting held that there should be SDU's within Katlehong.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Do you mean general meetings?

MR MOTATA: Let's put it this way, you said there was an enemy, do you recall that which was attacking during the evening?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  They were attacking day and night Sir.

MR MOTATA: Now when you identified this enemy, what did the community which you are referring to do so that your formation could come into existence?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: May you please repeat your question Sir?

MR MOTATA: I may just take a longer time to do that.  Let's start from the beginning, you said you volunteered to be a member of the SDU.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MOTATA: When was a decision taken by the community to form the SDU's?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The decision was taken in 1992 at Mnapulule section.

MR MOTATA: So what I'm understanding you to say is that there was actually any meeting that the SDU's should be formed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that kind of a meeting was held.

MR MOTATA: Thank you.

MR MADASA: Mr Motlokwa, when you were asked wether you encountered problems when you were patrolling you said yes, for example when you meet a person and you try to talk to the person and the person doesn't respond, how do you regard that as a problem?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: To us as members of the SDU's that was a problem because we had a sign which we used at night and it was one and any car which was entering Katlehong,  would use a sign of flicking the lights then we'd know that those are members of the community.
	There should be a sign which was used by the community and the sign used by us, then if a person was not responding when you used either one of the two signs that would create a problem as whether we would not know who is that person and where does he come from.  I don't know whether I should proceed?

MR MADASA: Perhaps I may ask you then, how do you solve that problem?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was difficult Chairperson because we'd say one then we'd keep quiet.  We did not have a solution to that kind of a problem, it was very difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you then leave the problem unsolved?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We would take that problem back to the community, to the sectional committee and the sectional committee would take it to the community, then they would tell the community to walk at night because they're disturbing the work of the SDUs.

CHAIRPERSON: The person that would create problems for you, would that be a member of the Katlehong community?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: At times it would be a member of the community but there were times when it would be an enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if it is an enemy, what would you do?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: If we'd say one and that person is not responding and perhaps we will start by shooting.

MR MADASA: So what you're saying is that there were people who transgressed the curfew and when people did so you would take such complaints to the sectional committee which would then take it up with the civic, then a meeting convened and people were addressed in regards to making your work difficult, your patrol work difficult?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The civic would call a meeting of members of the community to explain the problems we encountered.

MR MADASA: What other problems did you meet or come across besides transgressors of the curfew?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The main problem was that of people walking at night.

MR MADASA: Did you have an occasion to confiscate guns from members of the community and if yes, what would you do with the guns?