Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

MR SIGWELA: No, I forgot his name now, but there are many people who know him, but if you keep in mind there was another District Surgeon in Cape in February 1970.  That man is the man who can give you the record of our condition.  He was asking us, where is your flesh, what happened to your flesh because now you look like skin and bones.  You will not be able to be fit for work for the whole year.  You are supposed to be kept in a separate place so that you can recover yourselves again.  We stayed for 16 months in a block just aside and now we were trying now to recover.  That is when we recovered.  After we recovered we were asked to go out so that we can stretch a little.
 When we were in the island we were now free to communicate.  We went to the Commissioner of Prisons, when he detailed what I am talking to you now about, he must tell us how these butcher laws happened.  Even the Prison Act, we said we condemn this Act, the Prisons Act and there must be action taken by the Department against Potgieter.  We use to send some of the Officers, were also part of this and we said this Head of Security who was Brigadier Oukamp at the time.  It is very unfortunate that he has died now.  He came back to us and said why do you stab me in the back, why did you betray me?  We said, but we did complain to you, but UMTATA HEARING EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE
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you did not do anything.  So this is why we wrote this memorandum.  Now this was already after we have sent the memorandum.  It is supposed to be in the Prison Department unless it has been shredded.  I am sure Mr Mzimela should have it in his department unless it was thought it was offensive and it was shredded and thrown away, but now that is the story I came to bring to the Commission.  Thank you.

MS GOBODO: Thank you Sir.  You have enlightened us about a kind of torture which we have not looked into.  We have been looking at other kinds of torture like physical torture, but now it looks like you were psychologically tortured.  Thank you very much.

MR SIGWELA: There is one more point I wanted to raise.  About Lawrence Pokanogo, I think he suffered internally,   especially psychologically threw his beatings on the head.  When we went back to prison he was not alright at all and I am talking about a person who was doing his third year of Medicine, of B.Sc.  My perception of him was that this is a bright fellow.  He became a psychiatric case because he was too severely beaten.  What made things worse was to be put in a cell alone.  He was put in a special section.  He tried to commit suicide by cutting his throat.  I met him again in Durban in an ANC Conference, but I did not really take a close look at him, but he is not at the same level that he use to be.  His performance as a human being is not the same.  It has come down totally, but I think now he is not a stable person anymore.  I just wanted to mention that part about him.

MS GOBODO: Are you saying this because you want us to meet him?  Did you ever meet him, did you ever talk to him about coming to the Commission?
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MR SIGWELA: Because we are scattered, no I did not meet him, but this other one that I have said he was called a Russian, he is now a Brigadier in the Army in Pretoria.  He once called me, he was interested in us taking this case to the Commission, but even now I do not even have his phone number, but I even heard that he had called me again last week, but unfortunately we cannot contact each other properly.  Our aim was to contact all of us, but unfortunately it was impossible, but we did not want to lose more time.  So I never met him, but he is one of the people who would really appreciate this because at the time when I was released from prison he did make a request that I should write about things like this, but he thought that I should just write something like a book about our whole experience, but it is unfortunate that that whole project is still in process even though it started at a time prior to my torture.

MS GOBODO: Sir, you mention people like Brown, Jacobs and Potgieter.  Now, if you would meet them now what would you say to them?

MR SIGWELA: Lady Commissioner, I have been asked this question before.  When I was talking to certain Churches in America and Canada where I was sent by these Chairmans in 1986, when I use to talk about our experiences under apartheid they use to say, but why are you smiling when you are talking about your painful experiences which make us cry?  I use to say because it hardened me and I was convinced that these people were turn into devils by apartheid.  This is why I am committed into destroying apartheid, but I know now we are not now fighting in the valleys physically.  They are not switching off our
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electricity like they use to do now.  Now the struggle is right there in the Government, in the corridors of power.  It was now it was up and under between us and the Boers and even now I am still committed to the struggle until we live in a true democracy.

MS GOBODO: Thank you very much Sir and I think it is very important that you acknowledge the pain of the past so that we can embrace the future, that we can work towards making sure that the errors of the past are not repeated.  Thank you.  I am going to hand over to the Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Pumla, anymore questions?  Dr Mgojo.

KHOZA MGOJO: What I am going to ask is just something small.  It may look insignificant, but it is very important.  I am thinking about your trip.  When you were from Natal how many stops did you, you were on your way to Pretoria, how many stops did you have and when you stopped what did you do?

MR SIGWELA: From Durban, as the male prisoners, we stopped at Pietermaritzburg then we picked up Dorothy.  Then from there we stopped at Ladysmith and that was the end of it.  We were put in the police station in the cells, but we do not know what they were doing there and we do not know what these people who were with us and these other women who were with Dorothy were doing there, but we were put in cells.  Then from there, from Ladysmith we were taken straight to Pretoria.  So what I can say is that from Natal we went to Pretoria nonstop.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did you get a chance to pass water?

MR SIGWELA: The last time we got a chance to pass water was in Ladysmith.

CHAIRPERSON: MEC Sigwela, we have listened with shock and with dismay.  If you did not have the list of these
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witnesses in front of us here, people would think that, no, you are telling the tale.  You have moved the people who are in this hall.  Even those who are lucky enough to listen to this over the radio.  I am sure you have moved many South Africans.  I know you as a humble person.  I never knew why you have continued to be humble after you have become important.  I know now.  You have been through a lot which will keep your feet firmly rooted on the ground.  You know the price that has been paid for this liberation.  We are fortunate to have people who are in power, people who have been baptised in this kind of suffering because then I believe that with them in power we will have the quality of leadership that will ensure that this liberation is treasured.  Thank you for your testimony.  We wish you God speed as you go back to your work.  
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