Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, I would like to call the second applicant, Mr Sibisi.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sibisi, can you please stand up so you may take an oath.  Can you please give us your full names.

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Nhlanhla Joseph Sibisi.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sibisi, please stand up. Can you please give us your full names.

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Nhlanhla Joseph Sibisi.

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: (Duly sworn in, states).
EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Thank you.  Mr Sibisi, you are also applying for amnesty in respect of the murder or Mr Lombo and also in respect of an escape from custody charge.  Is that correct?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You have heard the evidence that Mr Motaung gave in respect of the murder of Mr Lombo.  Do you confirm that evidence in so far as it relates to your activities?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Is there anything that you would like to add as regards the incident, the killing of Mr Lombo?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: I do not have much to add except that I would say what he said is the truth.  We were given order and we had to follow it.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Now, if you will turn to your escape from custody charge.  Can you tell the committee the circumstances surrounding, sorry, your application for amnesty in respect of that charge.

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: You mean I have to explain about my escape?

MR WILLS: That is correct, yes.

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: After we discovered that they are not going to give us bail ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Please wait for a moment.  We are trying to...

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: After we failed to get bail, after trying for so many times, we decided that we should find a way to escape from prison.  So I use to be ill for some times, I could not get out of the house or the room and I smeared some blood on my private parts as if I was bleeding and in prison they thought I had a problem, stomach problem.  So they took me, bladder problem, and they took me for and then they took me into the prison hospital and I was kept there until the day when we were supposed to appear at the Supreme Court for the first time.  Where I was terrible ill that I could not even appear in front of the magistrate at court.
	I was taken in an ambulance, MBA ambulance and was taken to Edendale Hospital.  I did not succeed in the first attempt, trying to escape.  I was kept at the hospital and I was kept there for a month and after a month I managed to escape.  I tried to use the telephone and was showed a phone outside, but it was not working and I was taken to a nurses home to use the telephone and I decided I will that telephone then and use that opportunity to escape as well.  That is how I succeeded to escape.

MR WILLS: After you escaped where did you go?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: I went to Imbalie at unit 13.

MR WILLS: I want you to tell the committee exactly where you went in the following days and where you ended up.

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: I slept at unit 13.  On the following day they took me by car to Durban.  In Durban one of the ANC workers took me to Chesterville one house.  That is where I stayed with some other comrades and Sipho Motaung arrived at that particular place and we were taken.  We were ten in number and three men who were ANC members came to take us.  Those were MK soldiers from exile.  They took us to Swaziland and they gave us money and food which they bought.  They also gave us directions.  They told us that we are going to arrive in Swaziland and go to the UN offices and that is where we are going to be given directions as to how we are going to skip the country.
	After that we were taken to a refugee camp and preparations were made that we were supposed to leave for Zambia.  We flew from Swaziland to Zambia.  In Zambia we spent about a month.  After that we went to Tanzania and we were trained in Tanzania up to the date where I returned back to the country in 1994.

MR WILLS: On your return you were integrated into the National Peace Keeping Force in Koeberg.  Is that correct?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Yes, I worked with the NPKF, National Peace Keeping Force, in Cape Town.

MR WILLS: And you remained there until you were arrested in respect of this matter in August 1994?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: I was not arrested in Cape Town.  The NPKF was disbanded in Cape Town and we were taken to Bloemfontein.  In Bloemfontein we had to short listed and they combined all the armed forces in South Africa and they took me to Zeerust in the North West Province.  That is where I was arrested in August and I was arrested for murder and escape.

MR WILLS: Now, prior to the incident where Mr Lombo was killed, did you receive any form of training in military matters?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Yes, I did in 1989.

MR WILLS: And who was responsible for that training?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Sipho Motaung was responsible.  However, he was not the one in charge, because in most cases Mandla was seen to be the one who was in charge and also Buyani Madladla, who has passed away.

MR WILLS: You made an affidavit in December in respect of this application.  Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?  December 1995.

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Yes, it is the truth.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, committee persons.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Sibisi, the two escapes, that is the attempt as well as the successful one, were you aided by your organisation?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: I did not understand that very well.  Can you put it clear please.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In both the attempt to escape as well as the successful escape, were you aided by your organisation?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Yes, it did help me.  However, the person who was supposed to pick me in hospital did not come to pick me up and I realised if I have to wait for him, I cannot escape.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who was this person who was to fetch you?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: I will be making a mistake if I say I knew his name.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that all the assistance that was to be given to you by the organisation in the escape?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: That was not the only help that I got from the organisation.  It also helped me to skip the country.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, I mean escaping out of jail.  You did not tell this committee as to the role that your organisation played in your escape.  You just told us that you escaped and you left and you went abroad?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: We planned the whole escape with Mandla and Sipho while in prison.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was the plan about?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: As I have explained, I pretended as if I were ill.  In that way we knew that they were not going to be able to have the necessary medical help that I needed so they will have to take me out of prison into a hospital and I knew that I will get a chance to escape.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, when you were in prison with this escape in your mind, was their communication between yourself and Mandla?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: He use to visit in prison.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, when you were told of the operation and you accompanied applicant number one, in your own mind what did you think the killing of Lombo would assist you with?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Firstly, I will say that I was not happy about the killing, but the way the situation was and also because it was a question of following an order, I did not see any way we could use to fulfil the mission.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: To fulfil the mission, what mission?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: I mean the killing or the shooting of Lombo.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know or were you told the reason why you had to kill him?

NHLANHLA JOSEPH SIBISI: Yes, I knew the reason why we had to kill him, but I did not ask many questions with that regard, because I was told what to do.