Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

CHAIRPERSON: With regard to the implicated persons, will you just indicate for the record who are those implicated persons who were issued with 19(4) notices and whether these persons are present or they have given an indication to want legal representation in respect of their implications, because I note that some of them have been substantively implicated.

MS THABETE: Madam Chair
Majeka Phillip was served, and he is here present today.
	Comrade Colonel Paulos Malokwane is present today -he was served as well.  
	Godfrey Shia is present today as well - he was served. 
	Oupa Keswa is present today - he was served.  
	Bonga Khumalo is present here - he was served.
	Fanie Abraham Mkhwanazi is - oh, he's the applicant.
	Sipho Tshabalala was served - he's here today.
	Bowman Njolo who was the co-accused in Court was served, and he is here today.
I understand Madam Chair, that Stanley was served and he was aware that he had to come today as well.

CHAIRPERSON: What's his surname?

MS THABETE: I don't know his surname, Madam Chair.  He's referred to in the affidavit as Stanley, the person who gave orders.  It's in paragraph 13 of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MS THABETE: ... Mr Radebe's application, page 149 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying he was served with the Section 19(4) notice?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of service was it, was it personal service?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that effected?

MS THABETE: I would have to check that date, Madam Chair, just bear with me.  Madam Chair, it would seem that this was done on the 4th of February, because that is when our Investigator, George, went to the area to serve all the notices, 4th of February 1999.

CHAIRPERSON: Are all people present here whom you've referred to as implicated served with notices on the 4th of February?

MS THABETE: Madam Chair, they're not all present today, but most of them are present.

CHAIRPERSON: The ones that you've already referred to?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, they are present.

CHAIRPERSON: They were served on the 4th?

MS THABETE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And they have no objection to the short notice?

MS THABETE: No, Madam Chair, they didn't indicate any objection to me.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MS THABETE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were still proceeding with the list of implicated persons?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair.  Mr Lekgoka, he's not really implicated but he's an interested person.  He telephoned me and he said he would come, but he is not here.
	I think that completes my list, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That being the case I think this matter is ripe to be heard.  Will you kindly place yourself on record?

MS MOLOISANE: I am Advocate Lesego Moloisane from the Pretoria Bar, I represent the applicant, Fanie Abraham Mkhwanazi.  I also represent the applicant, John Radebe, who was Fanie Mkhwanazi's co-accused in the High Court.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of which matter?

MS MOLOISANE: In respect of the incident relating to the murder of Hapile Ndumo, the assault of Elsie Mokoena and the illegal position of arms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: I am Ms Thabete.  I'm the Evidence Leader, TRC.  I'm also representing the interests of the victims next of kin in this matter and also the victim, Ms Elsie Mokoena.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Moloisane?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I have submitted an affidavit, a comprehensive supplementary affidavit by the applicant, Fanie Abraham Mkhwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we give that a number?  Will that be Annexure B?

MS MOLOISANE: This is a comprehensive affidavit as I have already said, and it supplements what the applicant had already stated in his founding affidavit to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee.
	The said affidavit is also confirmed by a confirmatory affidavit made and undersigned by John Radebe, whose application I will deal with later on.
	Madam Chair and Committee Members, I just wish to state that apart from what has been stated in the affidavit I would like to lead some more oral evidence regarding the incident itself.  I also wish to state on record that the applicant fully understands English, he's conversant in English, but he will be at ease or comfortable to reply in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: That's his right, we'll afford him so.  We have interpreters who will interpret to him what you will be putting to him in English and we'll allow him to respond in Sesotho, and that will then be translated for purposes of our record which is in English into English.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fanie Abraham Mkhwanazi, are you prepared to take an oath?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What language do you speak?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down, you have been duly sworn in.
	You may proceed, Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Mr Mkhwanazi, we have presented this Honourable Committee with a supplementary affidavit.  Is there still anything that you would like to add in addition thereto?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moloisane, shouldn't Mr Mkhwanazi first confirm the correctness of the contents of the affidavit?

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you, Madam Chair.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, do you confirm the contents of the affidavit that we have presented to this Honourable Committee?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, I confirm.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you still adhere to those contents?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Now is there still something that you would like to add concerning the event of the 15th of August 1993 when Hapile Ndumo was allegedly murdered?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, there is something I would like to add.

MS MOLOISANE: Please say that, what is it that you want to add?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I wanted to add that when we were coming from Zone 12 with John Radebe she provided an information that on the day the Boipatong Massacre they took part.  I heard this from Samuel Neti and I wanted to confirm it and ask it from the person who said it.  I asked from her and she confirmed it.
	She confirmed that on the day of the Boipatong Massacre herself and the other girls who were in her company were knocking at the doors and when the people inside the house heard that it was the voices of the females they would open the door, and on opening the door the men would get into the house and shoot.  That's what I wanted to add.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you try and give your evidence in such a way that we are able to record it, as we have to write it down and we can't keep up with the pace at which you are giving your evidence.  So try and slow you place.  Also the translators are translating what you are saying in Sesotho into English and we don't want them to miss anything that you are saying in Sesotho, do you understand?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MOLOISANE: Now how long before the 15th of August '93, that is the day on which the incidents that led to this application took place, how long before that day was the Boipatong Massacre?  Do you still recall?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I think it happened in 1992, June.

MS MOLOISANE: Now is there still anything that you would like to add?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Nothing.

MS MOLOISANE: And in your affidavit you mentioned that you were a member of the ANC Youth League and at the same time you were also a member of the Self Defence Unit, in whose cell were you?  Who was your immediate commander, in whose cell were you?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Bonga Khumalo.

MS MOLOISANE: Did you have any membership document with you, or did the said Bonga Khumalo issue you with any membership documents?