Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That is not so.  We went in the hall, we sat in the hall and the hall was packed with the police.  We waited for the commissioner because he's the one who called us to that meeting.  Our colleagues, the inspectors, came who were working at the college.  They went to the stage and they told us that on the vote, election day, what was going to happen on that day.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you that when the commissioner did come to that meeting, many of the police were very disrespectful and were more interested in their pensions and why a certain officer by the name of Makubelu was  re-employed because she had been convicted of a criminal offence.  Isn't that correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Being disrespectful to him is because the police, he did not respect the police when he arrived there.  I even spoke to him and told him that that is not the right way to address the police because he would make them disrespectful if he was talking to them that way.  So the police were not disrespectful to him at all.

MS COLLETT: And I want to further put it to you that he refused to come back to any other meeting with you on that day.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Did he tell you how he left us, what word did he say before he left us?

MS COLLETT: Sir with respect, I'm asking the questions and you're giving the answers.  I put it to you that he told you that he refused to come back to any other meeting on that day.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, he refused because he came back the following day but we waited for him from 11 and then he came back on the following day in the morning.  I can say that he refused.

MS COLLETT: And I want to put it to you that the way that he came back to that meeting is he was arrested by your police, taken as hostage from the legislative buildings in Bisho and taken to the police college.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I'm not disputing that, I've already said that he came back to that meeting with the police.

MS COLLETT: Do you remember questioning him about monies that were in a certain police trust?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, I do recall.  I was the one who was asking him.

MS COLLETT: And do you remember that in the early hours of that morning when this meeting was disbanded he was taken at gun-point to a bank to withdraw R87 000 worth of money from the police trust?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Even though I was not there when he was pointed by a gun, I am here to ask for forgiveness for that. He had to withdraw that money because he was misusing it.  He was using it for his own purposes, he even agreed to that,

MS COLLETT: How did that fit into your political objective to overthrow Brig Gqozo, the withdrawal of the R87 000?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The issue of Brig Gqozo is a separate issue but what I'm saying is, he got involved because when he was asked about the money of the Ciskeian police, he did say that yes, he was misusing the money, as a result he gave us a certain figure that he used for his own purposes.  We then said to him okay - he was supposed to then withdraw the money of the police and then it would be given towards the police.  That was not a political issue.  We were trying to resolve the issues or the grievances within the police.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you finally Sir that what happened on that day was a case of absolute insubordination to the senior officers and now you are coming before the Truth Commission and trying to put it under the umbrella of some political objective.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I'm very worried because even you in your house, if you don't take care of your child, your child will be in the streets, if your child is not well fed or well treated in your house.  Commissioner Nqoya was not right in saying that he was the commissioner of the police even though he knew that those police were not taken care of.  Some of the police were shooting themselves and they were hanging themselves because of the actions that were done by the senior police so if the police were trying to defend ourselves, it's not right that it would be seen as if the junior officers were not respecting the seniors.

MS COLLETT: That's my point exactly.  The whole meeting was about police grievances.  It had nothing to do with politics.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: What I'm saying is, the aim of the police when they met or gathered that day with the commissioner on the 22nd of March was because we knew that Gqozo was going to be removed from  his position, that was our aim and the situation was very bad in the Ciskei at that time because it was after what he did, the bad thing that he did, that is well-known to everybody and some of the police were affected by that, so we had to unite and remove him in his position and we had to decide where to take the police force and the Ciskeian government.

MS COLLETT: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Collett.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Mfene I just want clarity on a few aspects here.  You say in your evidence that you were a member of Popcru operating underground in Ciskei during that period.  Do you remember that?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you made this plan to unseat Brig Gqozo, did you communicate with Popcru about your actions thereon?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And did Popcru give you a go-ahead to influence police into making those acts that they did?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No, Popcru didn't give me a go-ahead except that they said they have heard what we were saying.

MR MAPOMA: Did Popcru have any influence in your actions?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Before or after the actions?

MR MAPOMA: Before.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I can say that it had an influence but because it said that we can continue, even though it did not give us a procedure or a plan to follow.  I would like to explain this.  When this was happening each and everybody within the police force sacrificed themselves, they didn't care whether they lost their jobs or they were detained but at the end of the day the truth would be seen that Gqozo was supposed to be in that position.

MR MAPOMA: Are you still a member of Popcru?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Are you occupying any portfolio within the ranks of Popcru?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I'm a vice-chairman at the institution of Stutterheim.

MR MAPOMA: Now when did this mutiny end?  I understand it started on the 22nd of March.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: ON the 23rd of March, the following day.

MR MAPOMA: When actually?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: At about 10 o'clock in the morning.

MR MAPOMA: And it carried on overnight from the 22nd to the 23rd, is that not so?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And according to your evidence, you said you came to know that Brig Gqozo resigned, you came to know of that on the 22nd of March.  Now, why did you continue with the action even though he had resigned?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We wanted to be sure that indeed he had resigned because we would disperse maybe that particular evening and then while we were still sleeping his intelligence within the military and the police, we'd see them coming in our houses, taking us one by one from our houses.

MR MAPOMA: And how did you become to be sure that he had resigned?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We heard that from the TV news, from the morning newspaper the following day and the police, even though I didn't trust their report because I was busy there, but they would come back and report to us that there are rumours that Brig Gqozo had resigned on that particular evening.  They came back to us and reported that.

MR MAPOMA: Now let's - I just want clarity now on the meeting with the commissioner.  He called a meeting and you compiled a list of the issues that you wanted discussed in that meeting.  You remember that ?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes.