Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct Chairperson because I know he is highly trained in this type of action and he could execute the operation better than I could.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hattingh.  Mr Booyens.

MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Deetlefs how long after the incident did you receive the request from Head Office should not figure in the second incident?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Chairperson, I cannot recall exactly, but it may have been within a day or two.  It was between the time period of the 12th and the 17th when I handed in the statement.  I don't know how long afterwards though.  But it was definitely a day or two after.

MR LAMEY: Could it have been discussed possibly after the incident at the scene before the time?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: It could have but I cannot recall.  It is a possibility.

MR LAMEY: Between yourself and Mr de Kock?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, it's possible.

MR LAMEY: Just another issue.  The question of shots by the MK member who came out of the left of the minibus, is your recollection clear that a firearm was pointed at somebody specific?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: It seemed that way to me because the firearm was directed in the direction of Manzini and I am certain that a shot was fired.  A shell was picked up at the scene and I am very certain that nobody, not me or any of my other members fired an AK there.

MR LAMEY: No what I am trying to determine is, are you sure as you visualised with your eyes or is it an inference that you draw?  Is it a bit of a reconstruction, a deduction that you make?  Do you accept that a shot was fired beforehand, before Mr de Kock started shooting, or how do you recall it?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Chairperson, there is such a hurly-burly during such an operation, I would not want to say that I would have imagined myself, but in my heart I am convinced that a shot was fired.

MR LAMEY: I would just like to tell you what Mr Nortje's  recollection is, that the left door of the bus opened and the person, the AK came out in the same movement as the person came out, because the AK was seen immediately, but he was shot before his feet reached the ground or before he could train that weapon on anybody specifically and Mr de Kock shot him.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No, Chairperson, that is not how I have it.  I say it happened very quickly but I am convinced that when he opened the door he jumped out.  He was on the ground and the weapon was aimed in the direction of Manzini.  If it was in the direction of Col de Kock it was so close to him that he would have shot him.

MR LAMEY: No, that is not what I am saying, my instructions are that the weapon was not aimed at anybody specifically.  Your inference is that it was aimed at Manzini because Manzini ran in that direction.  Do you understand?  And he also climbed out of the vehicle in the direction which Manzini ran away.  I can understand that, but it's not necessarily that he had the opportunity to train it on anybody.  Would you agree with that?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I can concede that, yes.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, any questions?

MR MOERANE: Just to take over from where my colleague has left off.  At the inquest, that is the second inquest at which the representatives of the families didn't take part, you were committed to a particular version, not so?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That's correct.

MR MOERANE: And the version that you put up there was in a sense one of self-defence or necessity.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I think it may have seemed so.  We were setting on that issue Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And it was necessary for that particular defence or version to have this person shooting, the person who got out of the kombi?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That would be reasonably important, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Is it not true that the first person to arrive at the vehicle was Col de Kock?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: He was there first, but we were directly behind him.  It was a matter of a step or two that we were behind him.

MR MOERANE: Where was Mr Nortje in relation to you?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I cannot place all the members, where all of them were at that stage.  I think Mr Pienaar was directly next to me but I cannot place the others.

MR MOERANE: Now this incident happened at night.  Was it dark in the vicinity of that vehicle?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Chairperson, no, there was a light.  One of the members had a strong light there and the vehicle's lights were also switched on.

MR MOERANE: Was the person who had the light Mr Theron?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Moerane, besides that, can you recall what the state of the moon was, or the stars or whether it was a clear or overcast night?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Chairperson as I can recall it was not clouded and there was no moon, so it was dark.

MR MOERANE: Was the light shone on this vehicle before any shots had been fired?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I am not entirely certain about that Chairperson because everything happened so quickly.  Shots were fired, the light was switched on, I don't know which one was first.  It was all in parts of a second, I cannot say with certainty.

MR MOERANE: You have heard the evidence of Col de Kock that he was about a metre or two from this person.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I heard that yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Would you agree with me that he was in the best position to observe whether or not a shot had been fired?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: It's possible.  We were directly almost next to him, there was not such a great difference in distance.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but he was in front of you.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Diagonally in front of me.  If I say in front of me, diagonally in front of me, about a metre to 2 metres to my left.

MR MOERANE: And you must have had this person under observation.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: The person who jumped out?  I think when he jumped out everybody was looking at him.

MR MOERANE: And you obviously must have been watching the person to see how this person will react, or what this person would do?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I was looking at him myself.

MR MOERANE: Because he was right in the front, he was sort of in the front line position, not so?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is probably so.

MR MOERANE: His evidence, if one has to take it in totality, is that that person didn't fire.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Chairperson, I am convinced that that person fired.  If other persons did not see it, then it might be disputed, but I am convinced that he did indeed fire.

MR MOERANE: Are you able to venture a reason why Col de Kock might have not seen this person firing, taking into account all the circumstances that existed at the time?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No, except for the fact that it happened so quickly and there was such a hurly-burly, that it is possible that at that moment certain things were not probably observed.  As I say, everybody has his own perceptions, so I cannot speculate about that.

MR MOERANE: How well do you know Col de Kock?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Reasonably well.

MR MOERANE: You must be aware that he was involved in operations in South West Africa as it was then called.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I am aware that he came from South West, from Namibia.

MR MOERANE: That he was a member of Koevoet?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: That he must have been involved in numerous shooting incidents.