Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-18

MR MALAN: Mr van der Westhuizen, when you commenced your evidence regarding the incident itself, you said that you received an order from Botha to go with him and Du Preez to King's Park Stadium?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You said that Botha told you that you were going to take a dangerous terrorist there who was to be eliminated?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did he mention his name then?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't recall clearly.

MR MALAN: But you can clearly recall that he said that this was a dangerous terrorist?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And that this terrorist was going to be eliminated?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did he say anything about recruiting him at that stage?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So you knew from the beginning that he was going to be eliminated?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Why did you try to recruit him if Botha had decided to eliminate him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, I was of the opinion that he could perhaps be recruited and in so doing we could prevent this deed.

MR MALAN: So you say that that was your opinion?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.  I thought that perhaps we could try to recruit this man and then we wouldn't have to kill him.

MR MALAN: But Mr van der Westhuizen, didn't you say that you were of such junior rank that you didn't even offer to assist Taylor with digging the grave?  Well you didn't say that, but you said that he was the one that went to dig the grave.  Let me ask you this, when he said that he was going to start digging the grave, didn't you tell him "Colonel I'll do it."

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So you were of such junior rank that you didn't speak to anybody but you took it upon yourself to try to recruit this man as an informer while Botha had decided and he was the person who handled the informers, that this person was going to be killed?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Are you sure that you tried to recruit him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did anybody else try to recruit him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I'm aware of.  During a certain stage I was alone with Mr Nxiweni and I thought that there might perhaps be a chance.

MR MALAN: You say that you knew about Nxiweni and his activities?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And at which stage did you find out that Nxiweni was such a dangerous terrorist?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think that was after his arrest.

MR MALAN: Did you know him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes I knew him.

MR MALAN: Personally?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But you knew how he looked before you arrested him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: And then with regard to the information which you obtained, you have said that Mr Nxiweni and his units were responsible for the Rossburgh attack and you say that you had obtained this information by the means of the question/answer method and that involved, if I understand correctly, the asking of questions and if the response was not satisfactory, that person would be slapped or punched until they gave the correct answer?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you put it to him that him and his units had been responsible for the Rossburgh incident?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot remember exactly how it transpired.

MR MALAN: Well what I'm actually trying to get at is whether or not Nxiweni actually offered all this information or whether you accused him and assaulted him until he admitted to it or agreed with you, in other words to avoid further assaults or slaps or punches?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I'm not of the opinion that he provided the information to us as a result of his assaults.

MR MALAN: Do you think that he offered the information voluntarily?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, not all of it, some of it.

MR MALAN: But you can't remember which was which?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So can you remember what happened with the Rossburgh incidents, whether or not you accused him of it or whether he offered it of his own accord?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think we began to question him about it, specifically about the Rossburgh incident and he then put it to us that it was them.

MR MALAN: Did he say this immediately, don't say things that you don't remember.

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't remember that he said it immediately or whether he said this after a couple of blows.

MR MALAN: If he had been held there for an extended time period and consistently been assaulted, can one draw the inference from that, that it would be more probable that he would admit to things after assaults, rather than offer them voluntarily?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR MALAN: Could you say that without any doubt?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Some of the answers he gave as a result of his assaults.

MR MALAN: The minority or the majority?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot say.

MR MALAN: You see, I find it extremely difficult to understand, I think in the minds of everybody here, that a dangerous trained terrorist who was in command, would all of a sudden offer information of his own accord without any pressure being exercised on him or do you think, isn't that you experience, you were quite involved with interrogations?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That was my experience.

MR MALAN: That they would not offer information voluntarily?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not always.

MR MALAN: And in the majority of cases?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: In the majority of cases they would not offer it voluntarily or would they offer it voluntarily, what are you trying to say?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: In the majority of cases, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: In the majority what?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: In the majority of cases they would not offer it voluntarily.

MR MALAN: I think that that's the probability which is to be expected.  Can you remember anything about the case with Nxiweni?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Most of his information was not offered voluntarily.

MR MALAN: The Rossburgh information?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't say specifically.

MR MALAN: Another thing which is also very difficult for me to understand is why he told you that there would be an explosion that evening, which did indeed transpire, but that he told you about this beforehand?  Why would he have done that?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't say.

MR MALAN: Were you present when he provided that information?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't recall.

MR MALAN: Let me just ask you a question which I have in my mind.  One cannot help but wonder whether that explosion which occurred on the evening of the 4th, was that not a false flag operation which you undertook there, you didn't cause that explosion to occur yourself?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, we didn't.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Thank you sir.

MR VISSER: May the witness then be excused, Mr Chairman?
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, this brings us to the end of the proceedings in the present session, Mr Chairman.  I don't know whether there's anything you wish to discuss with regard to continuation of the other incidents?