Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR POTGIETER: Yes. No, no, I take that point. All I am trying to do is to ascertain from you whether the explanation and I've said to you, you have volunteered it, it wasn't part of the questioning, you've actually raised it yourself, are you saying to us that this is just a hunch, that it's not a confident position that you hold? Is it something that's just an idea that you have? Or how must we understand that explanation?

MR DE KLERK: I believe what the generals say to me. And therefore I don't offer it as an explanation, I offer it as an example where I have reason to believe, based on the accounts of four people to me, that specifically in the case of Vlakplaas fundamental information with regard to totally unacceptable things for which we are all so sorry and which abhor all of us so much, have taken place without the knowledge of superiors.

MR POTGIETER: Just in conclusion in this regard, is it possible in your experience as the President of the country previously, that a commander of Vlakplaas would have been able to sustain, taken all the resources that you need, finances, etc, etc to sustain that situation on his own and keeping it secret from everybody else higher up?

MR DE KLERK: Yes I think it's possible, it happens every day with theft, where for months on end in the bank system with all the precautionary methods, with all the double checking, where nonetheless people working for banks or for attorneys find it possible to embezzle vast amounts of money without being found out.

MR POTGIETER: And what could be the possible motivation for a person in that position, the Commander of Vlakplaas to be doing this?

MR DE KLERK: That would be to my mind a clear example of the mala fide category. Can I just say I dealt with this, I just didn't offer this here this morning. On page 38 of my second submission in reply to question 2 under the heading of questions on the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: and other security structures, I said,
"It has subsequently been revealed that some organs within the State administration, such as the Vlakplaas Unit and the CCB did act outside the law. Such actions were, however, never authorised by the Cabinet, the State Security Council or any other body which I have ever attended. Indeed I was not even aware of the existence of the CCB until its activities were exposed. I had heard of the Vlakplaas installation but was under the impression that it was a facility for the reorientation of captured ANC cadres who wished to work for the security forces. I have been assured by General van der Merwe, the former Commissioner of South African Police that he was also not aware of such activities, and believe that his evidence to the Commission will bear this out. Likewise, enquiries to other senior police generals also testified to the fact that they were unaware of the atrocities planned and perpetrated from Vlakplaas. After investigations that I had initiated brought such activities to light I took appropriate steps to terminate the activities concerned".

MR POTGIETER: Just rounding it off, I know I said in conclusion but, so you are suggesting that the possible motivation is just sheer criminality, sheer bloody-mindedness on the part of people who had been running this secret operation?

MR DE KLERK: Well or - and I am not saying it to justify it, or in some instances a belief that the threat was such that they had to do it. I think I dealt in my original submission with the various possible motivations which people had for what they did. And I am just looking for that. It was where we analysed the nature of the - on page 16 no that just deals with unconventional, but let me read that. On page 16 of my original submission,
"It was not only the strict security legislation and the state of emergency which created an atmosphere conducive to abuses and transgressions. The unconventional nature of the revolutionary threat created circumstances in which conventional responses proved to be less and less effective. The revolutionary strategies adopted by the government's opponents blurred traditional distinctions between combatants and non-combatants, between legitimate and illegitimate targets and between acceptable and unacceptable methods. The normal processes of law and even the government's tough security measures seemed incapable of dealing with this situation. Members of the security forces watched with increasing frustration while revolutionary movements organised, mobilised and intimidated or killed their opponents seemingly at will. The security forces were expected to play by the rules while their opponents could and did use any methods that they liked. There was a perceived need for unconventional counter-strategies of the kind developed by the British and others in successful campaigns against insurgency and terrorism".
And then elsewhere I dealt with also the specific circumstances they had to face. Many police were infuriated by the fact that so many of their colleagues had been killed in cold-blood. Have been murdered, have been assassinated, have been at the receiving end merely because they were police, and that might have played a role. But once again I'm not a psychologist, I'm not an expert witness on psychology or what motivates people. I can just give a layman's opinion.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you. I've clarified the point, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Glen you said you wanted to follow up on this.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson. Just a question Mr de Klerk, you indicated and you referred to the passages in your submission that you were given certain assurances about Vlakplaas by General van der Merwe, and you indicated in your response to certain questions that you believed General van der Merwe, do you still believe General van der Merwe that he knew nothing about the operations of Vlakplaas?

MR DE KLERK: Unless I have evidence that he is lying, I found him an honourable man. I found him a responsible Commissioner of Police and I apply the rule that unless there's evidence pointing to a man with such a responsibility and such a good history of loyal service, that I don't question his word just on the basis of rumours.

MR GOOSEN: He would be responsible for those rumours himself in the form of an amnesty application which is an application on oath, in which he confirms not only that he was involved in the chain of command authorising the killing of eight people and the maiming of seven others in the Zero Handgrenade incident which we spoke about earlier, but he also confirms the version of the operatives who were Vlakplaas operatives who actually carried out that operation.

MR DE KLERK: If that is so then obviously what he told me is not the true position.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.

MR DE KLERK: But can I just round the other reply off and say but it remains a fact that he said it.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr de Klerk this morning, as a number of examples were quoted to you, you in fact made a distinction and you said that at the level of the operatives you can accept that they were bona fide in their interpretation of the instructions given to them. But you also indicate at the higher level, at the person responsible for the authorisation, that those people acted mala fide and in fact their actions were unlawful. Now most of the cases quoted to you it really is people at a very high-ranking level who have done the authorisation. Many of them are generals. At their level they are much closer to Cabinet, what would account for their misunderstanding or their misinterpretation of policy? Surely they would have a clearer vision of what government policy is on these kind of issues?