Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I can't remember, it happened quite frequently on a number of days.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you have knowledge of this information when you completed your application form?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I did have knowledge even before I completed my application form.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you not include it in your application form?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I just want to submit that with regard to my statement there is a lot that I didn't say exactly in a truthful manner, because it so happened that - let me say that after the detainees had taken this to the other Committee, although I didn't listen over the radio I was sure that it was alluded to that I was involved, that I was in the assault.
	I then started feeling so bad about it in my spirit because I wanted to know what I would do.  As a young member, or a junior member then I then regarded that it was maybe my seniors who were involved in those days were now saying, putting me on the other side.  
	Then I was confused because I didn't know what was it that I should put forward as truth.  Then I was having two-sided views.  The first view was that I had to go to the victims and side with them, that also pained me because I will be regarded as a sell-out as it will be construed as I was selling out. 
	Also the second view was that I was going to be very responsible, although the Commissioner in the Police then didn't have much responsibility in support of me.  As such I concluded that I was going to be led into a frustration, then I could not put it clearly truthfully.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Then with regard to the next victim, Reverend Mahamba, you said in your statement that he was never assaulted by yourself.  Is that correct?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I didn't really touch him.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Reverend Farisani.  In your statement you said you were present when he was assaulted by some of your colleagues.  You cannot remember but it is possible that you also slapped and punched him.  Can you give us some more detail.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well that is true that I can't remember exactly in detail, however, as a person who was involved as it was happening I cannot dispute that I might have slapped him and also fist.  However, I just want to submit to the Committee that with regard to Mr Farisani he was the Dean of the Lutheran Church and he was very respected in our Church which my parents were also involved.  My respect was also - with regard to the section in which I was while the interrogation was taking place it also forced me to be involved in the slapping and the fist, also kicking him.  With regard to the other methods I was just involved in assisting.

MR MEYER: Can you remember clearly as to how often you slapped him or punched him or where on his body this took place and so on?  If you can remember just give us all those details?

MR MEYER: Well with regard to Mr Farisani there was an extensive period of interrogation with regard to him.  It could have been two, three days or four.  I can't recall exactly how many days.  But every day of the interrogation I was involved, I was participating, so much that I cannot recall and tell exactly how often I beat him through whichever method.  However I did use my fists on his body, although I cannot pinpoint exactly which side of his body, whether on the face or on the body, I did make use of that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Meyer.  When you say you can't recall how often you assaulted him and that the interrogation lasted for a period of approximately three to four days, are you saying that on  each and every time he was interrogated you would slap and kick him, you would slap and punch him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well although I am not saying every day, however most of the times during the interrogation I will beat him using my fists.  I am not saying on every day occasion, however, during those kind of interrogations I did.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You slapped, punched or kicked Mr Farisani more than once, is that your evidence?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I can't remember kicking him, however, I slapped him and I used my fists more than once.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Reverend Poswana, you said in your statement that he went to show you some weapons that were allegedly hidden at a cave at Chakuma and when you realised he had been lying you gave him a few slaps.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it is true.  What happened is that when Mr Poswana was being interrogated at the office while feeling the pain through the assault and beating I am quite sure that he wanted to defend himself.  I am just merely speculating.  He then said he knew where the ammunitions and guns were hidden, that is what he said to us and he said he will take us to those places.  I was one of those people who went with him when going to Chakuma.  At a certain mountain in Mangwene, cave, as we were on the way I think that was when, after we had parked our cars and we were walking towards the bush, on arrival next to a certain secondary school, I can't remember the name of the school, Mr Poswana changed his mind and said he was lying because he was feeling pain.  There were no guns hidden.
	Well I was so furious because it was so frustrating and we were walking up and down, I remember trying to hold him on his neck and then I pushed him down. I threatened him and even said that we are going to end your life there and then.  You will have to show us where the guns were.  So we took him back to the office. That is where we gave a report to the Captain Ramaligela to the effect that Mr Poswana didn't know anything about the guns.  
	Thereafter there was another emergency of beating him severely and shocking him electronically.  I was involved, I did play a part in that, I participated in that.  I really used my bare hands and also fists.

MR MEYER: Just explain to us precisely at which stage during this trip to where the arms and ammunition were allegedly hidden, at which stage of that trip did you give him a few slaps as you said in your statement?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well the slapping started when we were you know at the outskirts in the area of Chakuma, just not so far from the bush in which the guns were allegedly hidden.  He said he was just feeling pain.  That is where I started beating or slapping him.  And also after we had gone back to the office, at Venda office in our usual office interrogation room, that is where I also slapped him.

MR MEYER: In other words that was on two occasions that you slapped him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: It might have been more than twice because the interrogation didn't take place once.

MR MEYER: And is the situation with regard to the, shall I call it the more serious assaults and methods of torture, is the situation with regard to Reverend Poswana the same as with the other members of the Church that you assisted in those assaults and interrogations but as you said you did not personally apply electric shock treatment and so on.  Is that the correct summation?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I do agree that I was part and parcel of severely ill-treating them.

MR MEYER: Then the next victim that is listed in your statement is Mr Ravele, and of him you said that he was never assaulted by yourself?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well it's true I was not part of the investigation in his case.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Mr Chikororo, you said you
"... assaulted him during interrogation by slapping.  We forced him to stand for a long time and he had to do frog jumps.  We also threatened to seriously injure or even kill him".
Can you comment on that?