Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, actually it referred to paragraph 47
"I saw Kuba's photograph in the newspaper and recognised him at once.  I was very shocked but in my heart not at all surprised"
I think I was not surprised that it was him, rather than I was not surprised at Mr Hani's death.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, now that is a description of your personal attitude to the events described in 47, now 51 seems to be a description of your husband's reaction
"Clive was upset and I asked him what he was going to do"

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What upset him?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, he was upset, we were both upset.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: By what?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: By the fact that Mr Hani was dead and Kuba was - well, it was a political thing and Kuba was now being picked up by the police.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I would have thought that you would not really be upset by Hani's death but rather by the fact that Kuba was arrested?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And then you asked Clive
"What are you going to do"?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I don't ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You asked him what he was going to do, to do what about what?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know.  I'm sorry, this is a - this is not - I don't know if this is verbatim or not, I don't know, I'm sorry.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, were you not asking him as to what he was going to do about what had upset him, namely the arrest of Kuba?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I think I recall somewhere in my evidence or somewhere, that we got him an attorney, maybe that was what I was talking about.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why did you expect of your husband to be sufficiently worried about the arrest of Kuba as to ask him as to what he was going to do?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I'm not sure about what I was asking him, about going to do what, in which respect, legally, politically, going and visiting him, getting him an attorney, I don't know what this sentence refers to.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But what we do know though is that it is in relation to paragraph 47 - the arrest of Kuba, he's upset about the arrest of Kuba.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Then you ask him
"What are you going to do about Kuba's arrest"

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, but I don't know in which context of: "to do", to do what, to get an attorney, to go and visit him, to - I don't know what ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why did you think your husband should be sufficiently worried about Kuba's arrest?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Kuba was a friend of ours, we knew him, his picture was on the front page of the paper.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, he could have had relatives and families and brothers and a girlfriend who would - being relatives, especially his brother, would primarily be concerned about Kuba his younger brother.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, that's true.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, with regard to paragraphs 52, 54, 59 and 60, - well, Mr Bizos is free to argue that, my impression of them is that they do not necessarily indicate that you had fore knowledge of the planning to kill Mr Hani, rather - as I look at them, at least they indicate that before your husband was arrested he did at least tell you or disclose to you that he was involved with the plan to kill Mr Hani.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, he told me that they were discussing something but then the whole country was discussing something, there wasn't anybody who wasn't talking about doing something and I took it in that context  He never ever discussed planning to kill Mr Hani with me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But paragraph 52, 54, 59 and 60 are not about something, they are pertinently about - if what stands there is the truth, he's pertinently telling you about the killing of Mr Hani.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, he never ever discussed the killing of Mr Hani with me, ever.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Not even after the incident but prior to his arrest?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: After the incident?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, he told me that they were discussing something but he never told me that they had planned it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, assuming that - well, 60
"I asked Clive about the gun"
Which gun are you referring to?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I still dispute that because in my testimony I said on numerous occasions: "I know nothing about a gun".

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Oh, I see.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I'm sorry, I said it and I said to Mr Bizos I said it but if you look at the testimony on both tapes, I continually - in fact there was once - if I might just say this, there was once I said - on the 23rd which was the day before the tape that was shown there
"Can you remember seeing a gun"
This was at a quarter to three in the morning, and my answer was:
"Do you want me to prejudice myself, you have asked me three times about a gun.  At this stage of the game - sitting here with you saying I have a jail sentence over my head, do you think I'm going to lie about something, I don't recall seeing a gun, I don't know what it looks like"
And throughout the testimony it seemed to me that the police were obsessed with trying to tie me up with the gun.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Just to sum up this point, I'm looking at 54 where you are reported as having said
"He did say that he couldn't understand why Kuba had been so stupid to drive around so obvious.  He did admit to me however they had discussed it"

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, they discussed - they discussed doing something, as everybody did but discussing it - the plans to kill Mr Hani, were never ever known to me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm not saying that they were made known to you prior to the incident ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Oh.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm saying that it would seem that your husband told you about that before he was arrested.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, he didn't tell me that he was involved in the planning of this, he ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I come in at this stage and just try to clarify something, when you were being questioned by Mr Bizos about paragraph 60, you said - as I noted down
"They asked me about 10 times about the gun, I had now reached the end of the questioning and I was told I might not be charged and I was perhaps agreeing with them because Beetge may have said something that Clive had told him"
Do you remember saying that?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Beetge did say that.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you say that you made this statement about the gun at the end of your questioning because that's what you told Mr Bizos, you said
"I had now reached the end of the questioning"

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, if I said that yes, that's correct, I don't recall now when I said it but ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: Your counsel told us you mentioned the gun about an hour and a half before the end of the questioning.
	That is so, isn't it Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct Mr Chairman, up to 11:27 and from there it proceeds to totally something else where she gives her background and stories like that and ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: It went on for an hour and a half after that?

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mrs Derby-Lewis, did your husband - at any stage, tell you why he had handed the list over to Mr Walus?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, I asked him on the 12th: "Did you give it to Kuba"? and he said: "Yes" and then he wouldn't tell me any more.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you ask him why he had given that list to Kuba?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why didn't you ask him? - I mean, it was such a relevant question because he then would have involved Mr Arthur Kemp who had compiled that list for you.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you had read in the newspaper that it was an important piece of evidence in relation to the murder which was being reported.