Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I was.

ADV FORD: And did you have to disclose fully the nature of the 
operation and what was involved in order to do so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I just received approval from the Commanding 
Officer and he obtained the authorization.

ADV FORD: Now you say in paragraph 34 of your affidavit, at 334, 
on the afternoon of 12 December 1989, I was called to Brigadier 
Gilbert's office and he told me that approval was given for this 
covert operation.  Presumably your evidence is that you have no idea 
who that authority came from?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: At the same time he gave me a air ticket and said I 
had to fly to Pretoria where I had to contact Van Rensburg early the 
next morning for the logistical support to be discussed.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Now, you knew Mr Van Rensburg well?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: You were actively involved with him in the Security 
Branch in Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: He was present in Port Elizabeth at the time of the 
Goniwe murders, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

ADV FORD: Mr Lotz, who testified yesterday, do you know him 
well?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I know him, he worked with him.

ADV FORD: Do you know of any relationship between Mr Lotz 
and Mr Van Rensburg?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I know.

ADV FORD: What is that relationship?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is his father-in-law.

ADV FORD: Then you say at this stage Gilbert told me that Eric 
Strydom contacted him regarding allegations of a fraud regarding 
Mgoduka and Sehati.  We did not discuss this any further because 
the operation had been launched already.
	I understand that you mean that as far as you were concerned, 
it played no role whatsoever in the decision to kill these men?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Now, you have heard in so far as the questions which 
were put to you by my learned friend, Mr Hugo, that Mr De Kock's 
evidence is going to be that in fact in the first instance that was the 
only thing that was mentioned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is incorrect.

ADV FORD: Can you think of any reason why Mr De Kock would 
be lying about this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't think that he is lying, perhaps he has 
just forgotten about that if I have to speculate.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt, I want to read to you briefly a section 
from the application for amnesty for Mr Ras and Mr Ras hasn't 
testified yet, but we must assume that he is going to testify in 
accordance with what is contained in these documents.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: I am reading from page 262 in the middle.  While we 
were having a braai here in Port Elizabeth with Carl Edwards and 
others, he also discussed this matter.  Carl Edwards mentioned that 
the operation was done with money by the ANC.  They intercepted 
the money and channelled that to the State.  That was the instruction 
by P.W. Botha and if they defected to the ANC, this would lead to 
embarrassment for the Security Police and the government because 
of the large amount of monies entering the country in support of the 
ANC and other organisations, that was the only counter-measure to 
prevent these donors.  And it resulted in only new cheques being 
written and when these cheques - an d it could be assumed that they 
used the money for their own gain.  And that would cause that no 
further donations would be made to the organisations.   I did not 
have any knowledge of any monies of this kind which was meant for 
the treasurer.  Were you aware of such procedure, such an 
undertaking or that this was happening?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I don't have any knowledge of that.  I 
heard of that the first time during my hearing.

ADV FORD: Well, when Brigadier Gilbert told you about the 
suggestions of fraud against Mgoduka and Sehati, did you ask any 
further questions about that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I did not.

ADV FORD: Why not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was not necessary.

ADV FORD: But surely you were going up to brief Mr Van 
Rensburg and Mr De Kock if need be, as it turned out, you needed 
to be fully aware of all the relevant considerations in this matter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Brigadier Gilbert did not discuss this matter of 
fraud, this was not why they were eliminated.

ADV FORD: Would you say the primary reason then Mr 
Nieuwoudt, for the decision to eliminate the four men was the 
possibility of them revealing information to the ANC?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, and also the planting of the bomb on the 
16th of December.

ADV FORD: Well, that you could have stopped merely be 
detaining them, they didn't have to kill them for that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: And what about the members of the Security 
Branch, the Information Network, how could we combat then the 
ANC/SACP alliance and prevent the overthrow of the government of 
the day.  That was the total spectrum we had to take into 
consideration.

ADV FORD: You were aware of the operation in which, what are 
frequently referred to as the Goniwe 4, were killed, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, all that Gilbert told me was that some of 
these people were involved in the murder of Ford Galatha, Goniwe, 
Sparrow Mkhonto and the other one.

ADV FORD: Well, then there could have been no doubt in your 
mind that that operation was also a Security Police operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.  It was a sensitive operation.

ADV FORD: And when you went to speak to Mr Van Rensburg, it 
was one of the  factors which you mentioned to him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And he knew immediately what you were talking 
about?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I assume so.

ADV FORD: You did not have to explain to him what you were 
talking about?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know whether he knew about everybody 
who was involved in the Goniwe murder.  And I just mentioned to 
him what Gilbert had conveyed to me.

ADV FORD: Well, we know that you two were involved besides 
this incident Mr Nieuwoudt, you two were involved in instances 
where for instance, last week I understood you testified that two 
young activists were killed by yourself and Mr Van Rensburg, is that 
right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And presumably I didn't hear the evidence, but I 
presume that you got authority for that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And you would have been aware that the decision to 
kill the Goniwe four, authority would have been required?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I believe so, yes.

ADV FORD: And the authority, if we were to understand your 
evidence here, would have been gotten firstly from the senior man or 
one of the senior men in Port Elizabeth and subsequently from head 
office in Pretoria?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Were you aware that Mr Van Rensburg was involved 
in that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV FORD: Did you have any reason to suspect that he was 
involved in that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In which case?

ADV FORD: The case of Matthews Goniwe and his three 
colleagues.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know.  I don't have any knowledge of 
that case.

ADV FORD: But what we know without question is that Mr Van 
Rensburg didn't have to ask you any questions about what you were 
talking about when you mentioned the Goniwe 4?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: All that I conveyed to Van Rensburg was what 
Gilbert had told me, namely that three of these people were involved 
in the Goniwe incident, and I mentioned their names.  All four of 
those people involved in this incident.