Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1996-11-20

WITNESS:   I therefore went around in the area with the intention of seeking more information as to what happened.  That's where I discovered that there were many people who had already been killed lying around.  That day I discovered corpses, dead bodies of the old and the young ones, about 10 corpses.  I therefore requested for the mortuary vehicle to be called in, and as well as all other necessary helpers we could get from the police force.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  (Inaudible) ... those incidents, is that right?

WITNESS:   Can you repeat your question please?

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Sorry, you ... (inaudible - tape faulty) ... these bodies that you found.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: This may not be easy for you, but just so that people get a sense of what happened to the people whose bodies you found, in your statement you've told us the  sorts of wounds that they had.  Please just tell us for

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: the record, so we get a sense of how people were killed.

WITNESS:   The first body I came across was Moses Zuma's.  This Moses Zuma, according to my inspection then he had different wounds that were approximately 31.  The next one - and I also discovered that he is the father of Moses Zuma, by the name of Israel Zuma - also he had 30 wounds (Inaudible - end of Side A, Tape 4) ... who was an elderly lady, one wound.  And Mvusane Ngubane, who had 16 wounds.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  The people you found, you've told us about some -obviously elderly men, elderly ladies, and then young people.  Were there children amongst these people?

WITNESS:  There were no children amongst these, but I do have an idea that - and knowledge that there was one female, one woman, from Ngubane family.  She had just delivered a baby, but among these there were no children at all.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  In total you found 10 bodies at that particular scene, and then later you found another five.

WITNESS:   These five, I was not the one who discovered these five bodies, but it's part of what I investigated.  What led to these five is the bodies that we used to discover lying around as well in KwaMnyandu, but I did not see them when I discovered the previous 10.  There was enough evidence that they were also murdered at the same time when the 10 got murdered.  That is exactly what led me to combine the two and treat them as one case.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  (Inaudible) ... a case involving 15 deceased people.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  And you, as a very junior officer, were expected to investigate that matter.

WITNESS:   Yes, I was put in that position.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: /What sort

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  What sort of success did you have with your investigations?

WITNESS:   This was not a usual case, or rather an easy one.  People here were harassed and tortured as well, so that this made me not feel so comfortable.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  What did you ... (inaudible) ... how would you - looking back now - and let me just for the record say that after some years you went to the Goldstone Commission, is that correct, and then you thereafter moved to the ITU, so you now have a much greater experience of investigation techniques and other ways of doing things?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  In the light of that experience how would you have tackled the matter, knowing what you know now?

WITNESS:   It is clear that this was a serious matter.  It would require that I have a senior person, a superior person, an experienced one - experienced investigation officers who were so much versed with knowledge and experience, put together with an intention of investigate further and deeper in as far as this matter is concerned.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Now, all these incidents were investigated as a single incidence, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's true.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  There was no attempt made to look at the picture holistically.

WITNESS:   That's true.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  And if one looks at the various inquests that were held there was no effort to take all the killings on one day, in one area, and hold one inquest for them.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  They were just treated as separate murders, as if they were totally unrelated.

WITNESS:   It is a procedure of the court of law.  It was procedural at the time that when  /in an

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: in an incident, for instance, more than one person was killed, when the documents were brought to the prosecutor

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: to make a decision, with an intention of conducting the inquest, the prosecutors would request us to separate those cases so that each and every corpse would have the documents that relate direct to him and with him.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  So even with the best intention in the world it was - you can't hear me?

WITNESS:   I can hear now.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Okay.  I am saying, even with the best intention in the world - and we are not blaming you personally, but it shouldn't surprise anyone that if that's the kind of investigation that happened, and if that's the way in which, say, the Justice Department treated the matter, it shouldn't surprise us that the real picture didn't come out at that time.

WITNESS:   Yes, I do agree with you.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: Thank you, Chairperson.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Just one or two questions.  I discover that at the time when you were assigned this duty, this position to be an investigating officer, you were still very young.

WITNESS:  That is correct.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Why do you think you were assigned and appointed to this position, only you, especially being a senior position like this, and you being so much of a junior to be appointed to this position.  What did you have in mind?  Did you have mixed feelings, or what?

WITNESS:   Maybe what I should emphasise here is that the unit in which I was assigned and appointed to, even though I was young at the time, but I already was a trained investigating officer, being already transferred from Murder and Robbery, when I compared myself to my colleagues at that time, because  they were only coming from uniform branch.  I am talking about my colleagues now.  They had no vast experience in

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER: as far as investigating is concerned. This gives a picture and a position that I had one eye amongst the blind.  At least I had one eye, the rest were the blind men.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Are you done?

WITNESS:   Yes, I am done.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Let me ask one more question.  I will take you back a little bit.  We've seen here people with many wounds here.  Now, as an officer upon inspecting those bodies what did you think about those wounds?  You see, probably they were stabbed with assegais, or with bush knives, or were they shot?  Tell us about the nature of these wounds.

WITNESS:   Almost each and every weapon that we have that exists, from the gun upward.  You have the assegais, bush knife, and anything you can think of was used, because even the wounds were not equal in size.  Some were bigger than others, and there were lacerations, and one you could tell that these were chopped.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  When you were investigating, busy doing that, did you discover probably something which led to an idea as to who killed those people as an investigating officer?  The very perpetrators, did you have any kind of idea who could those be?

WITNESS:   With help that I was rendered, and especially from the refugee camps, those who witnessed, it ultimately was clear that some people were disclosing that they were being attacked by Inkatha, and the leaders of Inkatha, some of them, the names were implicated.

DANIEL JOHANNES MEYER:  Was it only Inkatha?  On your investigation did you only find out Inkatha being implicated in this matter?