Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-28

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now turn over to page 9, paginated, the numbering of the annexure will be page 2, paragraph 3 line 5.  I will just read one sentence and want your comment.
"But apartheid had assumed a reformist posture".
what did you mean there?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: In terms it was in the way that it has given our people a carrot so that they are changing, but they were not changing.  They were trying to change apartheid from a situation to a different situation.  They wanted to better the apartheid system.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No I want you to tell us those things which you regarded as making-up a reformist posture, those events.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: May you please look at page 14.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Page 14 where? Where on page 14?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: 14, paragraph 3.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where it starts with "it was clear"?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Ja, "it was clear".  May you please read that as from there so that other people will be able to hear.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: "It was clear that by "negotiations" de Klerk's regime meant collusion, not a dialogue between equals but a monologue between master and servant.  De Klerk thought that apartheid could be reformed but the condemned system was incapable of being reformed just like Satan cannot reform himself.  In de Klerk's "negotiations" there was no impartial chairman or mediator.  He, de Klerk was a player and a referee, the prosecutor and the judge, a candidate and examiner".

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Then it goes up to the very same paragraph.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let me tell you that as well.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes, on that page, first paragraph.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The only difference was that Mr de Klerk has defected ...(intervention)

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: "...had perfected"....

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that "perfected"?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes "perfected".

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: "....has perfected his art of oppressing Africans with the smile of a saint and fantastic manifestos.  He was doing in a more sophisticated and deceptive manner what Botha contemplated doing."

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I would ask you to  stop there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that the answer to my question?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you. Now let's turn to page 12 numbered from a letter 5 by yourself.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Page 12?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The fourth paragraph.
"December 1990 - 1993 began without fundamental changes having taken place except for....."
that's  where  my question will  come - 
"...for massive killings of Blacks on a genocidal scale.   It is estimated that about 18,000".
Now my question is where did this happen?  How did it happen?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay.  What I would also explain is that  it is self-explanatory that during that time when these things were happening there was violence in South Africa and this violence was not a mistake they were done deliberately so that it will weaken our struggle for liberation. And then again maybe if it would happen that  we would go to elections we Black people would arrive there without strength.  When you make enquiries about human rights commissions it is estimated, it is not like that, it says approximately 18 people died as from 1990 to 1993.  Those people could have been part and parcel of the democratic South Africa.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's go to the next page of your annexure, page 14 of the documents Mr Chairman and Committee members, the last paragraph thereof.  I will quote for you. My  final question is this regard is that, I quote
"As I was oppressed by the Whites and their government how was I supposed to feel?"
do you see that?  Will I then be correct if I say to you that because of the oppression by the Whites you thought it wise to commit this crime?  The oppression by the Whites you thought it wise to commit this crime?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you regard it a crime?

MR MTHEMBU: While you regard it as a crime, you ...(intervention)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No I am asking you whether you do.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: No I don't regard it as a crime.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  What is it?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I regard it as a fight against the oppressor.  And I regard it as a part of the struggle fighting against the criminal supremacy of the Whites.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And that which you have just said - will I be right if I say it is a revenge on the oppression that was existing?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Well if you are talking in terms of an oppression okay - if you say it is oppression it gives another idea which you cannot see ...(intervention)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am quoting you Mr Mohapi, the word that you used.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay, that's why I say I would enlighten you on that regard, that what oppression is what and who has been affected by oppression.  I don't want you to regard it as a revenge against oppression, we were fighting against oppression.  What did I do to oppress other people?  I was not paying back injury with injury.
I was fighting what was evil.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now actually what is it that you were fighting?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay, I was fighting against those who were maintaining apartheid.  I was fighting against those who were making it possible, the prospects of apartheid.  I was fighting against those who were oppressing the Africans.  I was fighting those against who wanted to be respected whilst we respect other people in other countries.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: This might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I was not aware.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us this morning that you intended to defect from the ANC to the PAC, when did you in fact defect?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Immediately I became a member of the task force I have already defected to the Pan Africanist Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us the date?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: What I will tell you is that I joined the task force unit in June.  I defected in 1992 if I remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: And before that what position did you hold in the ANC?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I was a member and also the secretary.

CHAIRPERSON: Secretary of what?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Do you mean, secretary for what?

CHAIRPERSON: Secretary of what?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: The secretary of the ANC branch in Because.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you elected secretary?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: It was in 1991, my apologies, in 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you write a letter officially to the ANC saying that you are now resigning from the ANC?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: No I didn't write any letter.

CHAIRPERSON: As the secretary of the organisation don't you think it's necessary to officially write to say you are now defecting?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is why I explained it was necessary but I was not brave enough to tell people whom I worked for so long.  I knew that, I thought I couldn't have the courage to do that.  That is why I used the word "defect" and then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes in other words you didn't resign you defected?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.  Your application form, have you got it in front of you, at the end of the application form is that your signature?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And it is dated Tuesday 1996?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: What month?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I don't remember the month well.  I don't remember the month well.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you leave that out just accidentally, was that an oversight?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: As I explained that I didn't leave it deliberately, I thought maybe they need a day, I did it deliberately.  In short I would say I made a mistake that I should write - I didn't know that as well they need a day or a date.