Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, some of the people were disguised for the Harms Commission when they testified, so you didn't meet people in privacy, there was simply never that possibility.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you disguised by the way?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean disguised, with false beards and balaclavas, that sort of thing?

EDWARD WEBB: Well mainly false beards.

CHAIRPERSON: And also, if there was this operation to kill Mr Mhlaba in Durban, wouldn't you, if there was such an operation, have expected that to be a Region 6 operation?

EDWARD WEBB: If I approve a thing like that or if I had approved a thing like that, I wouldn't know which region was to carry it out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I'm still a bit confused as to why Region 6 was established then, if other regions were doing operations in South Africa, like for instance the Mhlaba one we spoke about one a moment ago, that was carried out by Region 9.

EDWARD WEBB: All I can imagine is that if something like that happened, then it means that the people needed help.  Perhaps they had a shortage of manpower or whatever and then they would ask another unit for help with their work.  That's the only thing I can think of.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it would seem, and I might be wrong, but it would seem that many of the operatives in Region 6 were sort of kicking heels at that stage, they weren't running operations.  It seems the most active person was Mr van Zyl, but besides that the others were still trying to find contacts and cut-off people and that sort of thing.

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So it seems strange that they weren't utilised in these operations.

EDWARD WEBB: I agree, they ought to have been used.  Those are the people who ought to have been used, or ought to have had non-aware members.  Whether they actually had then or not, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you know this business of their being disguised, they had lawyers, you had lawyers, here is the good name of the CCB being mentioned as somebody that initiated the death of an attorney, where a Judge says it was hardly justified, why not go to your legal representative and say, "Please tell us who this man is"?  "I'm the Head of the CCB and look what he's saying about us."

EDWARD WEBB: Mr Verster told me that he didn't even know about the operation, now people are jumping out everywhere making all kinds of allegations.  Why would I make further enquiries if he said he didn't know about it?

GEORGE BIZOS: ... the organisation which you headed.  About the organisation that you headed.  Anyway, let's carry on with this list about which people you knew nothing about.  Did you know Mr Anton Roskam, R-o-s-k-a-m.

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: No.  Now his vehicle was burnt according to Mr Barnard and Mr Botha, found by Judge Els in G 92 to 95 and 230.  Bundle G.  Now this never came to your notice?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Should it have?

EDWARD WEBB: Well to burn a vehicle, possibly, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why would it have been kept away from you?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos, what that during 1989?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Barnard are the indications, Mr Chairman, that it was during this period.
	Then of course we have the case of David Webster, in which Mr Barnard was involved.  I think we have enough evidence in relation to that.  But what I want to ask you is this.  Allegations were made that this was a CCB operation.

EDWARD WEBB: There were enquiries made, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you take part in any discussions as to whether this was so or not?

EDWARD WEBB: The then Chief of the Detective Service, Gen Jaap Joubert, made certain enquiries and I went to Col Verster and I directed certain enquiries to him and the answer was no, the CCB was not involved.

GEORGE BIZOS: If the CCB was not involved as they publicly contend, who were Botha and Barnard working for at the time of Webster's death?

EDWARD WEBB: I think Mr Verster had already testified that Barnard at that stage was no longer a member of the CCB and Kalla Botha I'm not sure about.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you conduct an enquiry as to what Botha and Barnard were doing together and what the status of Barnard was at that time?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You neither wanted to see nor hear any evil, or have any evil explained to you?

EDWARD WEBB: I wasn't even aware that Barnard could have been a non-aware member.  I didn't know the individual, I didn't have any knowledge about it, so why would I make enquiries about somebody I didn't know?

GEORGE BIZOS: But the Head of the Detective Services came to you and said, "we have information that this is a CCB operation", what did you do about it?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson, who said that he said that they had information like that?

GEORGE BIZOS: What did he say?

EDWARD WEBB: That's not what he said.  If I recall his words, and I can't remember the detail, but he said "Is it possible that your people are involved in the Webster murder?"  And enquiries were made and the answer was no, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Whom did you ask?

EDWARD WEBB: Joe Verster.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why should the Head of the Detective Branch come to you?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I went to him.

GEORGE BIZOS: You went to him?

EDWARD WEBB: Ja.  He called me to his office.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well why should he have invited you to his place?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask him, "Why do you ask me?"?

EDWARD WEBB: He asked me, "Please make enquiries, are you involved, yes or no."

GEORGE BIZOS: If you knew nothing about it didn't you ask him why did you come - presume that he - did he come to you as Head of the CCB, or as the Head of Special Forces?

EDWARD WEBB: Excuse me?

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he come to you as Head of the CCB ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, this is General Jaap Joubert of the Detective ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but when he came to make the enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not the same Joop Joubert.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, but when the Head of the Detective Service came to you or asked you to go to his office, did he ask you in your capacity as the Head of the CCB, or as a person in the Special Forces?

EDWARD WEBB: I think as Head of Special Forces.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now did he tell you what he wanted to see you about before you went there?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you ask him what made him think that you would have any information about Mr Barnard's doings?

EDWARD WEBB: The General asked me to make enquiries.  He first asked me, "Are you involved?"  And I said, "No".  Then he asked me could I make enquiries and I said yes, I would and that's what I then did.

CHAIRPERSON: General, were you completely ignorant of the identity of the operatives in the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: Absolutely, Chairperson.  As I said earlier, I knew two Regional Managers and Joe Verster.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't have, in your capacity as Chairperson, records like Mr van Zyl, he's going to be working in the Western Cape, Mr Botha's going to be working in Transvaal, that sort of thing?

EDWARD WEBB: Not at all, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't ever get Mr Verster coming and saying "Well look this member's doing well and this member's not doing so well", any sort of feedback about personnel, at all?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, once there was a person who had retired, we gave him a gift and some kind of a commendation and then there was another member of staff, I think it was Botes who had been dismissed by Verster because he caused certain problems.