Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR STEWART: None Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I do not have questions arising from what the members of the panel have asked but during the break something was pointed out which I believe I made a mistake when questioning the witness but the instructions I get them, they flow some of them, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to rectify?

MR NGUBANE: If I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Hlongwane, do you remember I asked you about the attack at Ngema's Shebeen, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I do remember that.

MR NGUBANE: In fact, what was intended there was the attack at Umbuso Zwane's Shebeen.  Do you recall any incident in which you were involved when there was an attack at Umbuso Zwane's Shebeen?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't know Umbuso Zwane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: You have no questions arising Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR NGUBANE: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit?

MR HEWIT: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HEWIT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I want to make it clear that what I'm going to put to
the witness is not based on his testimony but as the Chair and Members of the Committee will recall, certain people were killed at bus stops and shebeens and we've been having people coming to enquire, so I just want to find out from him whether he knows of a particular incident, that is all but it relevant to this hearing.  If I'm allowed?
	Mr Hlongwane, do you perhaps remember the shooting of two people, a man and a woman who were in a car in J1 Section eSikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE: What car was that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We don't have the description of the car but the registration number was NUF 20254, it was on the 2nd of August 1992 at about 9p.m.

MR HLONGWANE: If I were to explain maybe you would understand.  There was a car that was attacked when we were waiting at the bus stop.  I don't know whether it was indeed hit.  The driver was apparently hit on the head.  I don't know whether that is the car you are referring to or whether you're talking about something else.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I also may not know but I was just wanting to find out if you may recall.  The man who was killed in the car is Elias Mbanza and the woman who was with him is Tembi Dladla of eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, my intention isn't to thwart Mr Mpshe's questioning or to thwart the process of full disclosure in any way but I think that in fairness to the witness there must be a ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: A bit more specific I think, yes.  But I suppose it's difficult for you Mr Mpshe, to be more specific.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Indeed Mr Chairman, it is very, very, difficult as I've indicated at the beginning.  We have here incidents where people were shot at bus stops, at shebeens and I'm just trying to find out whether he knows about these things.  But to tell him that this was the colour of the car and this is how the people were killed is difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, he said that he was at one occasion present when a car was shot at and he thinks somebody was shot in the head.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairperson.  I follow it with another question.  I'm not trying to put him that he is lying or whatever, I'm just trying to establish to the benefit of the victims who are sitting herein.  I don't see the basis of my learned friend's objection at all.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, if Mr Mpshe mustn't get me wrong and it's important this, I'm not objecting to the question, I'm just trying to assist the witness in being a position - we all
know, we've seen the affidavits, how many incidents that he's committed and it's very difficult to remember all of them and obviously the more particularity there is in regard to Mr Mpshe's questions the better.  But if he's not in a position to give particularity, well then I don't see that we've got an alternative but to proceed in that way.  But it is not my intention to thwart his line of questioning or to object to it in any way.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: May I be allowed to proceed and round this up Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Would the name Alias Mbanze or Tembi Dladla ring any bell in your mind?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't know the names.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hlongwane, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart, sorry Mr Wills, that concludes your applicants?

MR WILLS: Yes, it concludes the applicants that I represent in relation to the eSikhawini matters.  I might add at this stage Mr Chairperson, in view of certain, the process of the violence that took place we are considering calling an expert witness who can explain and possibly assist the Committee with the nature of the violence that occurred in Kwa Zulu Natal.
	I know that we have severe time limitations and we are sensitive to that but once we have a record we will be in a position to assess this more appropriately but obviously this will only occur, should it happen, at the next hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Wills, as we all know this hearing is proceeding on a piecemeal basis in that we've been to Durban, we've dealt with some Claremont incidents, we are here dealing with eSikhawini and other Northern Zululand incidents, we will be down at Mpumalanga and there's also incidents to be dealt with that occurred in the other Mpumalanga, the old Eastern Transvaal, so there will be time to call witnesses at a later stage if you feel it necessary and obviously we won't in any way stand in your way in that regard.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, that does conclude what I have to say at this particular stage of the proceedings, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart, I see that it's now five to four, it might not be a very opportune time to start because we would hardly have started when we will have to adjourn.  We adjourn at 4 o'clock and I think it's important, the Interpreters have had an extremely busy day today, Mr Hlongwane spoke at great pace and I think it would be unfair to continue after 4 o'clock or for their sake at least and also I think we are all very hot as it's a very humid day today.  So would this be a convenient time?  Could you just perhaps just indicate tomorrow will you be, which applicant will you be calling if any?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, thank you, indeed now would be a convenient time.  I intend tomorrow to commence with the evidence of Dawid Zwele Dlamini and as Mr Wills has done, my intention is to cover the eSikhawini and surrounding areas incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart.  We will therefore adjourn now until tomorrow in this hall at 09H30 again tomorrow morning when we will start with the evidence of Mr Zwele Dlamini.

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, just for the record ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear or see who is speaking.

INTERPRETER: I just wanted to state Mr Chairman for the record, that the Interpreters had a very difficult time interpreting the witness, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS