Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MR VISSER: That is what I am putting to the witness, Mr Chairman.  He says he does not know whether he was there.  With all due respect, Mr Chairman, it is not an unreasonable question.  The man says he does not know now, suddenly, whether Ramosoeu was there or not.  He says his car was there and I am saying to him, but you asked Mamome what Ramosoeu was doing there and that question could only have been based on the assumption that Ramosoeu was.

CHAIRPERSON: He asked Mamome what was happening, did he not?

MR VISSER: My notes are not as clear as yours, but my attorney agrees with your notes.  He agrees in, basically, what your notes says, Mr Chairman, but let me take it to the next point, Mr Motsamai.  You told us that Mamome then said that he is the one that gave the order or did you not say that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: According to the information from Coetzee, he listened to the recordings of Winnie Mandela.

MR VISSER: I do not want to split hairs with you, Mr Motsamai.  Did you tell us yesterday that Mamome, when you asked Mamome what was happening, Mamome said to you he, referring to Ramosoeu, is the one who gave the order?  Did you say so or not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I never said Ramosoeu gave instructions, but gave information.

MR VISSER: All right.  We can check the record.  We know, fairly accurately, that the attack on the house and the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela took place during August or September of 1985.  Would you agree with that date?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I can agree with those dates.  It was during the 80s.

MR VISSER: Can you deny that during 1985 Mr Ngo was still at school?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I cannot deny that fact.  I do not know quite well.  The person who handled him was Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Let me ask you this simple question.  At any stage during the attack on the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela, where you were present, was Mr Ngo present, according to your recollection?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I have already explained how many we were and I never mentioned Ngo.  Nowhere did I mention Ngo.

MR VISSER: You see ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Does that just mean you did not see him there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I did not see him at all.

MR VISSER: But if he participated you would have known about, surely, Mr Motsamai, would you not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would not know, because when we received a command, that is a command.  Whether who knows about it I cannot tell, but that would be a mistake.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Motsamai.  Can I put this to you, that Mr Ngo, in bundle C, page 12, in (c), Mr Chairman, (a), (b), (c), stated in his application that he was present when the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela in Brandfort was attacked and in which he stated that Warrant Officer Ramosoeu had, on that occasion, threw an incendiary device which he explained, in his evidence, to be a grenade into the clinic which caused it to catch fire and to burn.  Now, I am just giving you the background, because I am now going to ask you a question in regard to that.
	Were you ever present in an attack on the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela when a grenade was used to set it alight and where Mr Ngo was present?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would say I was not present there and the clinic was attacked by these people.  These that Ngo is stating here.  Let me point out, this one Mamome was with me and Mtyala was with me.  He was present and the clinic, as we left, was already up in flames and the fire brigade would not extinguish that fire.

MR VISSER: You see, Mr Motsamai, said in his amnesty application, page 12, I am sorry, Mr Ngo, said in his amnesty application at page 12 that the people in whose company he was when the clinic was attacked with the grenade were Ramosoeu, Mamome, Constable Motsamai, that is you, and Constable Mtyala.  Now, Ngo says he participated with you in this criminal offence of an attack on the clinic.  Do you agree with that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not agree with this that Ngo is stating here.  The clinic was attacked by myself and Mamome. People who were present were Mtyala, Morakile and Miningwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this untrue?  When Ngo says this is he not telling the truth?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, here he is telling a lie.

MR VISSER: Let us proceed, then, to the next incident at page 146.  This is the attack on the house of Bobby Sebotsa. Do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: And you received instructions, if I remember correctly, from Coetzee and Shaw, once again?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I may add, this is according to your evidence, but not according to your application form. Is that not true?  Because in your application in paragraph three you never said anything about receiving instructions from anybody.  Do you agree?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Which application?  May you clarify that one.

MR VISSER: You can choose any application, Mr, I am referring to page 146 of bundle A, but if you said it somewhere else please be free to draw our attention to it, but ... (intervention).

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In my application the instructions are from those people.

MR VISSER: I see.  Now, Bobby Sebotsa, I understood from your evidence, had undergone a crash course in Lesotho in the use of explosives.  That is correct so far?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And that is why you called him, you told us, a MK member, because he was trained.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you said that your instructions were ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, about instructions you could, perhaps, look at page 145, paragraph 1(b).

CHAIRPERSON: Eleven.

ADV DE JAGER: 11(b), Sorry.

MR VISSER: Yes, point taken, Mr Chairman, yes.  Indeed, point taken, yes.  When you were given instructions, you told us, I think, that the instructions came from Coetzee and Shaw again.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is what I said.

MR VISSER: All right.  Now, I want to know is this, the attack on the house of the, or the instructions to attack the house of Bopi Sebotsa, did that come before the instructions to kill Musi, George Musi, or after that time?  Can you help us?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You see, Mr Visser, these incidents took place around 1986. I cannot recall which one we started with and what transpired, things of that nature.

MR VISSER: All right.  You see, because the reason why I ask you that is it, it would seem to the objective reader that here, in the case of Bobby Sebotza, was a far more deserving case for him to be killed than on the evidence which you said Musi had to be killed.  He was a MK member, he had received training in explosives in Lesotho.  Why didn't Coetzee and Shaw say, listen, Boysi, go kill this man.
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: How can the witness be expected to know what was in the mind of Shaw and Coetzee?

MR VISSER: He was there and he can give an opinion, Mr Chairman, surely.

ADV MEMANI: The instructions were not given simultaneously.

MR VISSER: He was still there and he can still give an opinion, Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, you must adjudicate on the objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't the tenure of his evidence been throughout that they were called in and merely given instructions.  I certainly have not heard it suggested that he ever debated anything with Coetzee or Shaw.