Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson.  I know that Mr Vally has moved on and I certainly don't want to delay the proceedings but I think there is a fairly critical question that I would like to put to you and I would like to refer you to your submission in paragraph 27 on page 7, and then I want to link that with page 2 of annexure C and I will give you the exact paragraph in a moment.
 What I would like to know is you tell us in your report that you asked the children about the whereabouts of Stompie, do you see that, on paragraphs 27, and they said they didn't know.  Did you ask Mrs Mandela the same question and did you ask Zinzi the same question and if not why not?  And then in your report to the then President of the ANC you mention, and I quote, 
"Interestingly Zinzi later told us that Kenny had escaped.  She made no mention of Stompie.  This reinforced our suspicions about Stompie".
Did you raise this with her then?
 And also could you please explain what you meant when you wrote -
"We also kept mum about Stompie at that stage".
because it does seem to me that a great deal hinges on this very critical question.  Your main concern was the safety of the children, that was your main concern and I am confused as to why you didn't put these questions when you seemed to think that Stompie was under threat or may even have suffer a worse fate.  Thank you.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: I will try to start where you started which is our main submission, paragraph 27.  We put the question to the children and indeed they said they did not know where Stompie was.  You will recall it was at a time when they would not say they were assaulted, it was at a time when they wouldn't say they were brought where they were against their will.  Now coming to annexure C ...(intervention)

DR BORAINE: Could I interrupt you there, if you are dealing with 27 then my question is, having asked the children did you ask either Mrs Mandela or Zinzi where Stompie was?

FRANK CHIKANE: Chairperson if I remember well we did ask that question because we had a meeting first with the family and at that time, if I recall, my colleagues will maybe confirm that is that it was indicated that Stompie had you know run away or left or I don't remember what words were there but it was confirmed at one stage he was not there.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja but perhaps also to explain what appears in our annexure, personally I don't have a recollection of specifically asking Mrs Mandela about Stompie but I don't want to say that we didn't.  At the time when we were still questioning the children closely I think I explained the rationale for our not divulging, even to Mrs Mandela, certain things that we found questionable, because we were looking for the best possible way of getting her co-operation as opposed to getting her to move into the defensive all the time.  So I am saying that would explain why at a particular stage we did not confront her with everything that we thought we knew.  For instance we did not walk in and say where is Kenny?  We asked questions and in the course of asking questions we were given certain answers which reinforced suspicions that we had as we walked into the house.

DR BORAINE: I have a last comment I want to make really is in the form of a question and I really am very sympathetic as to the whole state of affairs in South Africa let alone in that part of South Africa, but looking at it now, bearing in mind what happened to Stompie, have you any views as to whether or not you should have been a little less sensitive and a little more direct and that that may have saved his life?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Firstly I think that indeed we wish the time at which we were informed about this problem was a time when everybody was still alive, I am talking about the children, because perhaps that would not have complicated even the situation for us, we would have intervened and the fact of our intervention would have possibly constrained anybody who was thinking of assaulting any other person.  From what we learned subsequently none of the children was assaulted or allegedly assaulted after we had intervened.  So I am saying that I wish we were informed earlier when everybody was still alive and therefore our intervention would have helped matters.
 So I think if you look at what came out in court it doesn't appear that our intervention would have saved Stompie because he was no more, I mean if you look at what subsequently came out in court.  But as I am saying I wish we had the possibility to save his life and possibly the lives of others who might have died in a similar way.

CHAIRPERSON: Faizel.

DR RANDERA: Reverend Chikane I just want to go back to the formation of the Crisis Committee.  You've said that it came into existence at the time of the burning of the house and the Daliwonga incident, would it be true to say that there were already rumours circulating in Soweto and elsewhere of the Mandela United Football Club and the activities of that Club, both criminal and otherwise, that as leaders in the community you were aware already, or was it only at that time that you had become aware of the Mandela United Football Club's activities?

FRANK CHIKANE: I think it's likely that we were aware as far as I am concerned because the rumours were there.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja I will speak as somebody who was part of the leadership of the Mass Democratic Movement at the time, we were aware of these rumours, but if you look at our submission it was not as if Mrs Mandela was, as far as we knew, a member of this or that affiliate of the UDF whom you could bring into a structure of the UDF and confront her with these allegations.

DR RANDERA: Can I just come back to the burning of the house and your recommendations subsequent to the burning of the house which was essentially as I understand it, that the Football Club, given your understanding at the time that the Club may have been infiltrated by a third force, the recommendation was to disband the Football Club, now that incident took place in August of 1988 of I am right, the burning of the house.  We now take ourselves to January of 1989, what actually happened to that recommendation?  Because I would also understand as you were communicating with the ANC outside the country, perhaps it was taking place at that time as well, why was the Club not disbanded and why was your influence not brought to bear?

FRANK CHIKANE: Well at that stage I mean I am not sure about our influence on her, but she says - she refused that we remove the children, that's what our submission says and had reasons for it, and so we couldn't do much.  We communicated to the ANC and given those dark days it was difficult and so we expected them to resolve the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hanif.

MR VALLY: Thank you Arch.  We were at paragraph 33 of your submission and I just want to get clarity.  There is dispute about which date Katiza Cebekhulu was taken to see Dr Asvat together with Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela and Xoliswa Falati, but there is agreement that they were at Dr Asvat's surgery to examine Katiza Cebekhulu and there is in fact a medical record by Dr Asvat to show this.  Did Dr Asvat deny that he had ever examined Katiza Cebekhulu on this date, the 14th of January 1989 when you people went to see him?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Well he denied having examined the children and we understood that to include Katiza, but we did not ask him one by one did you examine Stompie, yes or no, did you examine Katiza, yes or no, he denied having seen and examined the children.