Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR WILLIAMS: But wouldn't you agree with me that it is probable that you were the only one who would have been able to tell them that you parked in Lower Klipfontein Road, and they're quite specific when it comes to the name of the road.  You're the only person who would have been able to convey such specific information to him.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say that I said that to him.

MR WILLIAMS: Is there a possibility that you may have said it to him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot tell you, I cannot recall whether or not I said it to him, whether I gave him that name. I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Furthermore the statement states
"We were approximately a hundred metres away from the entrance.  We saw people coming out of the building."
Is that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot recall whether I said all of these things to the man.

MR LAX: Well how far were you from the building when you stopped the vehicle?  Did you actually stop and observe the back of the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: We did stop, yes.

MR LAX: But you weren't a hundred or more metres away from the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: When I was asked how far away it was, I said we were there, you will understand if I say from the bend or the corner to the building.  That was the distance.  I told the Committee, because they were there and they would understand the distance if I indicated that it was from the corner to the building.  You can't say that it's a hundred metres or two hundred metres, that is the way that I can recall the distance and the Committee should understand this because they were there and they viewed the premises.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct - no microphone) isn't that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: You know how long a soccer field is.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: It's about a hundred metres, roughly a hundred metres, isn't it?

ISGAK HARDIEN: A hundred and fifty.

MR LAX: 15...?  Was it as long as a soccer field away?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Never.

MR WILLIAMS: And would you agree that Lower Klipfontein Road is situated in front of the building?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'm getting confused now Mr Williams, I thought Springbok Street was in front, at the front entrance, or are there two roads?  I can only recall seeing one road at the front.

MR WILLIAMS: There's a road parallel to Springbok Road.

CHAIRPERSON: In view of the building?

MR LAX: But which side of the building is it?

MR WILLIAMS: It's on the front side of the building, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: From Asmiel's side?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that's Lower Klipfontein Road.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words, if you stand at the end of Lower Klipfontein Road, will you agree that Lower Klipfontein Road, or Springbok Road joins Lower Klipfontein Road?  So if you stand on the corner you can see the front of the Early Learning Centre.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Let us look at the same statement, page 156 of the bundle, the third paragraph, the larger paragraph states
"I drove in to Lower Klipfontein Road and the person who sat behind, the man handed over something to De Wet."
I assume that you said that Calla gave something to Slang, but is that statement correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, but I do not agree with the roads that you just mentioned.  I do not agree with the roads, because we were not there.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that so.  In other words, one of two conclusions can be drawn, either the person who drew up the statement is lying ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: I will not say that Mr Williams, because you must remember that I did not compile this statement alone, Peaches gave a statement before I did and they asked him everything concerning the roads, etcetera.

MR WILLIAMS: So are you therefore insinuating ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying what Mr Williams is saying now, that the person lied about it.  What I'm telling Mr Williams is that two people of Kewtown were there and they made the statement, so I do not know what they said.

MR LAX: Can you just sit a little further back from the mike, because it distorts when you get too close.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sorry.

MR LAX: No, it's okay.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because he knew Kewtown the way I did.

MR WILLIAMS: Well forget for a moment about the road or the name of the road, but is it so that at a certain stage Calla handed something over to Slang?
"It looked like a pack of 20 cigarettes"

ISGAK HARDIEN: No Sir, I cannot recall that.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something, Mr Williams?
	You've said now that Peaches told them everything about the roads.

ISGAK HARDIEN: About the roads.

MR LAX: Well was there a map with names of roads and stuff before you when you were trying to explain all of this to them?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Chairperson, I do not know.  If they asked him about the street names he would have answered them, if they would have asked him where are the roads, he would have explained where they were.

MR LAX: Yes, but if they were writing your statement they wouldn't know where, which road you stopped in, you'd have to tell them what road it was, surely.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct, but I did not say anything about Springbok Road because I was not in Springbok Road, in Lower Klipfontein Road or Springbok Road.

MR WILLIAMS: What are you saying, are you saying that at no stage you turned into Klipfontein Road or Springbok Road on that specific evening?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I'm not saying that I was not there at all, I'm talking about what Mr Williams mentioned, in that the statement said that we parked and you could see the building from Lower Klipfontein Road's side.  This is now from the corner.  I'm talking about that.  We never parked there.  We never stood on that corner.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words, you just drove and you were moving the whole time but you were in that road, is that what you are saying?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct, we had to drive around there.  I'm sorry Mr Williams, you know the Joseph Stone brick lane  where you cannot cross, you have to cross  there.

MR WILLIAMS: I do not understand.  Is your evidence basically then that you were moving when one person handed something over that looked like a calculator, he handed it over to Slang van Zyl?  Was the car moving?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, Mr Williams, the calculator I saw that when we were behind the building, it was not while I was driving that they passed a package that looked like a packet of 30 cigarettes.

MR WILLIAMS: Did Slang have something or take something like Penlite batteries out of his suitcase and replaced the batteries in the calculator?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall Mr Williams, I was the driver.

MR WILLIAMS: And at the stage when the bomb exploded, were you in front or behind the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: We were at the back of the building.

MR WILLIAMS: How far were you from the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I will not be able to say to you how many metres it was, I do not have to explain to Mr Williams, it's from the corner of the lamppost before you take a turn if you want to go to the butcher or the civic or around to Athlone.  Mr Williams knows what I'm talking about now.

MR WILLIAMS: What I can infer from what you've just said, you had to very close to the building.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot say if it was 30 metres or 20 metres, all that I can say is you know what I'm talking about, you know where the corner is in relation to the building.

MR WILLIAMS: I probably cannot take it any further.
	Now Gakkie, I will put it to you as a fact that at the stage when the bomb exploded, both myself, Oesman and other members of the Cape Youth Congress, all of us were in the building.  Can you dispute that or deny it?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot dispute it because I did not see you in the building.

MR WILLIAMS: And apart from us there were also two or three other soccer members in the building.