Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

MR PRINSLOO: And you, at a later stage, I refer the Committee , Chairperson,  to bundle 5 page 53 as it is paginated, there is a statement.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that your statement?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: The date is not very clear but it seems to be 1989, it seems like the 14th. I cannot make out the month Chairperson, maybe somebody could assist us here?
Can you recall in which month this statement was made?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I cannot recall Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: This statement was made for the purpose of a death inquest.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And in that statement you indicated that Maj Deetlefs was the person who was in command?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: While Col de Kok's name was omitted from this statement.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: No mention is made of him?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Not at all, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And mention is also made of a blue light.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: There was no such thing, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that part of your statement false where Col de Kock is not mentioned, what his role was and you have heard what his role was in this application.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you omitted that?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And you created the impression that there was a road-block in which the people were killed?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And that was false?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And you knew by submitting a false statement, and you give evidence afterwards, it would be perjury?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And you knew it was defeating the ends of justice?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you recall whether you gave evidence at the inquest?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: No, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Who, or let me ask you as follows, why did you omit Col de Kock's presence?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Because it came to light that we should not mention Col de Kock.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you receive such an instruction?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: From whom?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I cannot recall, possibly from Maj Deetlefs.

MR PRINSLOO: Was Maj Deetlefs your Commander at that stage in Ermelo?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: He was my direct Commander, that's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So you served under his command?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr van Zweel, your application is embodied in the volume as indicated to the Committee, it's page 264 to 266, it's the application itself which you have signed, and then the specific incident for which you apply for amnesty in this instance appears on page 269 at the centre of the page and runs up to page 271 with regard to the incident and then the general background which you sketched and forms part of your motivation, appears on page 275 and runs up to the end of your application?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you confirm the correctness thereof?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I do, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And you apply for amnesty on four counts of murder, because of the four people that were killed there that evening?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: As well as charges of defeating the ends of justice and perjury?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And any other competent finding which might emanate from the facts which are placed before this Committee?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And for any delict which you are guilty of, any civil action which may be instituted against you?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo.  Ms van der Walt, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr van Zweel, the person who fired the shots, was he on his feet outside the kombi or in which position was he?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I suspected it was the person who jumped out left, I cannot be 100% certain but the bullet came from that vicinity.

MR LAMEY: So you don't know whether it was that person?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I cannot confirm that.

MR LAMEY: Is it possible that shots could have gone off while you were firing, that you inferred that that bullet hit the road there and that was the spark and you assumed that, the recollection is that it came from that direction?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, it may be a bullet that must have ricocheted from somewhere.

MR LAMEY: So you cannot say with clear certainty that he fired the shot before Mr de Kock fired at him?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: No, I cannot be certain, it happened very quickly.

MR LAMEY: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, any questions you'd like to put to the witness?

MR MOERANE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Mr van Zweel, for how many years before this incident were you a member of the Security Police at Ermelo?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Since 1983 I have been a member of the Security Branch at Ermelo.  I started in '83 at Ermelo.

MR MOERANE: And as a member of the Security Branch, particularly in those years, the 80's, was it one of your main duties to investigate ANC related matters?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And for that purpose I take it you had to have contact with Middelburg, with Piet Retief?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And was there general co-operation between the Security Police in the Eastern Transvaal?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: From time to time from the 80's did you make use of the people from Vlakplaas, de Kock's people, for operations?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, we did make use of them.

MR MOERANE: From that time, from the 80's did you believe that you could do things that were illegal in discharging your functions as a member of the Security Police, against the ANC?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I believed that one could act against the ANC because they were illegal.

MR MOERANE: So was it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, sorry Mr Moerane, it didn't seem to be a correct answer.  What Mr Moerane was asking you is did you believe that you as police could become involved in illegal acts when acting against the ANC?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, I believed so.

MR MOERANE: And would I be correct to say that was the general culture of the Security Branch in the Eastern Transvaal?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Please repeat.

MR MOERANE: Was that part of the general culture amongst the Security Branch in the Eastern Transvaal?