Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-26

MR TOYISE: Chairperson, concerning his application I feel like I'm not implicated because what he is talking about now I know nothing about it because I was in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so there's nothing further that you want to say about this case?

MR TOYISE: I have nothing to say because I do not see anything that implicates me in his testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Toyise.  Mr Williams, I'm just going to go down the line, it makes little difference, practically speaking.  Is there any evidence that you are going to tender?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I would actually suggest that Mr Jamie be given a chance to first present his witnesses because it seems as if on paper as if some of my clients are being mentioned by some of his clients.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well let's enquire then from Mr Jamie.  What evidence had you had in mind to present Mr Jamie?

MR JAMIE: Mr Chairperson, I intend calling Andile Jack.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the passenger?

MR JAMIE: That is the passenger.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Was that the only witness?

MR JAMIE: At the moment yes but again it depends on I suppose what comes out of cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JAMIE: I'd also like an opportunity if I'm going to be asked to present my case now to perhaps consider after Andile's testified whether I want to call any other further witnesses?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JAMIE: So perhaps it could stand down then to tomorrow if I need to make a final decision in that regard?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JAMIE: But I'm happy to call Andile now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we just want to assess where we are and where we're heading bearing in mind what I've said earlier.  In the light of that Mr Williams and in the light of what Mr Jamie says, that at this stage he really only intends to call the passenger.  Now does that testimony implicate any of your clients at all?

MR WILLIAMS: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Would you be in a better position to decide your situation once you've heard the testimony of the passenger?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson, because then it might not even be necessary for me to call witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I appreciate that.  Yes, Mr Jamie, you said that you could actually present Mr Jack's testimony then?  Yes, very well.  Is it Mr Andile Jack, if he can come forward?
And I don't know where he's going to sit, perhaps you must just make place for him to get behind the microphone?  Yes, we just want to rearrange the microphones.  Just a minute?  Mr Jack, do you hear the interpretation, just give us an indication?

ANDILE JACK: Yes I can hear it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

ANDILE JACK: (sworn states)

MR JAMIE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Andile, could you tell the tribunal what your relationship was to Pro Jack?

ANDILE JACK: Pro Jack was my uncle and he wanted to take me to school, support me and do everything that I needed.

MR JAMIE: Did you lived with him?

ANDILE JACK: No I was not staying with him in the same house I was staying with my mother but whenever I need anything my mum would send me to him.

MR JAMIE: To Pro?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.  When I needed something that was need from school, I would go and talk to him.

MR JAMIE: Okay.  Now the evening that he was killed, do you remember that evening?

ANDILE JACK: Yes I still remember that.

MR JAMIE: How old would you have been then?

ANDILE JACK: I was very young, I think I was fourteen years old.

MR JAMIE: Okay.  Now where were you that evening?

ANDILE JACK: Are you talking about the night of the incident?

MR JAMIE: Yes.

ANDILE JACK: I was in the car.

MR JAMIE: Before that where had you been?

ANDILE JACK: We were in the house watching TV and he was actually taking me home.

MR JAMIE: So you had been at Pro's house watching TV and he was now taking you home, right?

ANDILE JACK: I was not in his house, but I was at his home, I was there with - my grandmother was also there.

MR JAMIE: Okay.  Now he was taking you home, was it just the two of you in the car?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.  No one else was in the car except the two of us.

MR JAMIE: When you left the house about what time was it?

ANDILE JACK: When we left the house it was after 9, before 10.

MR JAMIE: Do you remember what the weather was like that evening?

ANDILE JACK: There was mist.

MR JAMIE: Okay, now when you left the house you got into Pro's car, can you tell the tribunal what sort of car that was?

ANDILE JACK: It was a Golf, it was grey in colour.

MR JAMIE: Grey in colour.  Okay now in what road did you drive when you left the house?

ANDILE JACK: We left the house, we approached a corner towards 1st Avenue.  As he was going to turn the car and drop me home.

MR JAMIE: Okay so you turned left into 1st Avenue, is that correct?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now 1st Avenue is a narrow road that runs parallel to Lansdowne Road which is a big dual carriageway?

ANDILE JACK: Yes it's just next to the houses.

MR JAMIE: And it's, yes it's next to the houses.  That is 1st Avenue and that's the road you were driving in?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Now that road, you were driving toward the intersection of 1st Avenue and Emms Road, is that correct, which is another main road running down toward Nyanga?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And in fact there is an open space with trees between Lansdowne Road and 1st Avenue and that would have been on your right as you're driving towards Emms Road?

ANDILE JACK: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

MR JAMIE: Okay, it would make more sense if I drew it for you but then perhaps I should just rather explain it to make it a bit easier.  You were driving in 1st Avenue and you would come to a stop street, is that correct, and that would be where Emms Road is?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And if you turn right from that stop street you would come into Lansdowne Road?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: And if you turn left you would go down toward Nyanga East Police Station?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: Right, now in that road, 1st Avenue, you came to the stop street.  Which way were you going to go to get to your house that evening?  Right or left?

ANDILE JACK: We were going to take the Emms down road because we were not going up.

MR JAMIE: Sorry, you were going to take the what road?  The Emms Drive road?

ANDILE JACK: Yes, we were going to use the Emms Drive.

MR JAMIE: So you were going to turn left, is that correct?

ANDILE JACK: Yes that is correct.

MR JAMIE: You were not going to go toward Philippi or toward Lansdowne Road?

ANDILE JACK: No, we were not aiming to go towards Philippi.

MR JAMIE: Okay now as you drove down 1st Avenue could you tell the tribunal what happened, as Pro drove down 1st Avenue, what happened?

ANDILE JACK: As we were driving down 1st Avenue he told me that there were people who were calling him and I heard them calling, saying Nzonkwe and then he stopped the car at the stop sign.

MR JAMIE: So did you hear people calling Nzonkwe?

ANDILE JACK: Yes I heard them and he also told me that there were people calling him.

MR JAMIE: So you then stopped at the stop street, what then happened?

ANDILE JACK: We stopped there, after stopping there he actually reversed and went there straight under the trees.

MR JAMIE: So you say he reversed and then went straight under the trees.  When he drove under the trees was he still reversing or how did he get under the trees?

ANDILE JACK: He stopped the car and after that he went there under the tree.  He took a route that was going there under the trees.

MR JAMIE: So what you mean is that he from the stop street reversed and then he drove forward under the trees, is that correct?