Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-23

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I did not hear the whole conversation. I just heard the Commanders speaking and they asked men if they had enough courage to continue with the operation.

MR MALAN: Did you know what the operation was?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: At that stage I did not know.

MR MALAN: But you drank with them to have courage?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is not the reason why drank. I just drank a glass of whisky because I drink whisky.

MR MALAN: But the bottle was taken out for courage. That is why the word courage was used, is that correct?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No. It might have been so in the testimony in court but it was not so.

MR MALAN: Did you say this in court or didn't you?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: In court I testified to protect myself and I drew the attention away from myself to put the blame on other persons.

MR MALAN: You say Mr Deon Martin is your brother-in-law?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes.

MR MALAN: When you received the message to prepare for service that evening were you happy about that?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson initially not but it was an instruction and I complied.

MR MALAN: Did you tell anyone you did not feel like it?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I told my wife that I did not want to go out because I would leave for Lichtenburg early the next morning.

MR MALAN: Excuse, you said the following morning?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I had to go to Lichtenburg.

MR MALAN: And why did you go?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Because it was an instruction.

MR MALAN: Did you hear Mr Martin saying anything or was any messages conveyed to Mr Martin to the effect that you had to be there?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes I heard them in the background saying that I had to attend and I accepted it as an order.

MR MALAN: Were the words correct when you heard them say that, tell him that you were going to be there?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That was 4 years, 4 months ago. I cannot remember his precise words.

MR MALAN: Was it an order?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes it was an order not a threat.

MR MALAN: When the persons drank the whisky and courage was spoken of were you concerned?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Drinking whisky and the courage, there is no relationship between the two.

MR MALAN: Well lets have them follow up then, it does not have to relate to each other. But you needed the courage to do whatever had to be done. Were you scared?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No I was not scared but I was attent because I expected anything because Commandant Kloppers told us that we were looking for corpses.

MR MALAN: The weapons, where were the weapons handed over to the persons, that was used in this act?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: At the roadside cafe Commander Kloppers gave weapons to us.

MR MALAN: Why did you say in your initial testimony you received it at the house?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: As I have mentioned previously on the 2nd January I had a heart attack and I was under medication. And when I gave my statement I was a bit confused and that is why I just gave the statement. The order of everything is not correct there.

MR MALAN: Do you remember at some stage you asked your sister to keep the revolver?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I just suggested it because she would have been alone at the small holding. And Commandant Martin told me to take the weapon with me.

MR MALAN: This black person that you met along the road. You got out and you hit him?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes I was one of those who hit him.

MR MALAN: Who were the other persons?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: If I recall correctly it was Mr van der Schyff, Mr Diedericks, myself and Mr Visser who got out of the vehicle.

MR MALAN: Andre Visser?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes that would be Andre Visser.

MR MALAN: Andre Visser at some stage did he come back to say he shot this person?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Chairperson he said so but we all knew it was not so.

MR MALAN: You all what?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: We knew it was not the truth.

MR MALAN: Why did he say this?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Chairperson I do not know if it was in the heat of the moment that he said so but you can ask him yourself. I cannot answer for him.

MR MALAN: Yourself and Mr Meiring, you are close friends, you communicated well with each other?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes. I knew Mr Meiring for quite some time. Not very long but quite some time.

MR MALAN: Did you express your fears towards him about what was to happen that evening?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: In my original statement I said it and once again I put it to the Committee I did this to protect myself and to draw attention away from myself. And that my statement was not totally true.

MR MALAN: What was the conversation about or did you not speak to him at all?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes we had spoken but I cannot remember what we spoke about.

MR MALAN: Did you not tell him about your fears that evening?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I told him there was going to be trouble but not in the sense that we were afraid. We had an order to carry out and that is what we wanted to do.

MR MALAN: Now you please have to tell me did you tell him what you said? When I put the question first time to you so you said you just put it in there to protect yourself. Now you say you did discuss it with him. And the words that you used: "We are busy with shit here." Now but now you say you did not say it, you just said it to protect yourself. But what you did say was you told him there is going to be big trouble. Explain the difference to me please?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: In my statement I put it in to exempt myself and to get a lighter sentence if possible. I said it then but it is not in the context where, I should not have put it in the statement but this is a general discussion that we had.

MR MALAN: But you told him that trouble is coming? You told him he and yourself this evening would be in trouble?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No not in trouble.

MR MALAN: In your original statement you referred to the ear and you said that Mr Kloppers laughed. Do you remember you referred to it?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes I can remember.

MR MALAN: Can you remember what you said in your statement? What did you say?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I said he laughed like a pig.

MR MALAN: Can you remember what he said? Is that all he said? You said: "He laughed like a pig. And then he showed the ear to us." And then he showed the ear to you?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes that is what I said in my statement.

MR MALAN: Can you remember that happening?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Chairperson, as I put it to you again. I tried to exempt myself. I did not want to go to prison. I wanted to get a lighter sentence. So of course the person who was in charge of us that evening I wanted to put him in trouble.

MR MALAN: But you did not know about the ear before the time?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I am not here to criticise him I am just here to say what my part was in this whole act.

MR MALAN: I ask you again. Your part in the ear, on that specific evening, your knowledge of this ear, when did you hear first about this ear?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: When we got to Mr Badenhorst's house.

MR MALAN: Is it the first time you heard about this ear?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct. It is the first time I heard about this ear.

MR MALAN: What happened there?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: He showed the ear to us and he said he would take it to the General.

MR MALAN: He said he would show it to the General? And it is the same testimony that you gave in court. That he showed the ear to you and he would take it the following morning to the General?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is what he told us.

MR MALAN: That is what you said in court too? Is that correct?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes.