Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 2000-02-04

CHAIRPERSON: Today is Friday the 4th of February 2000 and we are continuing with the amnesty applications of Mkosana and Gonya.  The Panel and the appearances are as would be apparent from the record.  Mr Nompozolo has in the meantime joined and he's acting on behalf of Mr Gonya.
	Yes, we've reached the stage where all of the questioning, apart from that on behalf of Mr Gonya, has been concluded so what remains is, Mr Nompozolo, to hear if there are any questions on behalf of Mr Gonya.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Yes, I do have some few questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkosana, I just remind you that you are still under oath.  Do you understand?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: (s.u.o.)

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mkosana, I am instructed by Mr Gonya that on the day in question you were having three radios with you, is that correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: According to him, you had a radio which communicates with the commanders of the companies.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You also had a radio which was communicating with a helicopter.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You also had a radio which was communication with what he called "van der Bank".

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No van der Bank was on a helicopter, he was an airborne commander, we've got only two radios.  The one of the ground, communicate to the ground personnel and the one to communicate with the Brigadier on the helicopter.

MR NOMPOZOLO: According to him you were so busy on that day to the extent that he feels that you were given too much work to handle in the circumstances.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's not true.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, if a soldier does not follow the instructions of a commander, let's take a troop who does not follow instructions of a commander in terms of the Army laws, what happens to that soldier?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, he got a punishment, or he come to the orders, I mean ...(indistinct) office orders.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were those steps taken against Mr Gonya?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir, because he was involved in the Board of Inquiry, which was conducted by Mr Skrube.

MR NOMPOZOLO: According to my instructions, no inquiry was every held against him and also that no matter was reported that he defied the orders of a commander.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, we take it as a blanket issue, this matter, because Gonya was also involved with the troops that were deployed along Parliament and Ministers residence, so we took them that he's also a ...(indistinct) soldiers, so they were involved, all of them, in this Board of Inquiry.

MR NOMPOZOLO: According to him, he was never charged on any departmental inquiry with disobeying your orders in particular.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, in this case, Sir, no one was being punished or being given a fine or a charge at least in this matter because we take it that the Board of Inquiry must be opened, must be convened.  We haven't specifically said, "you have fired so now you must come to the office ...(indistinct) and get orders".

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Nompozolo.   So the Board of Inquiry, was this just a general inquiry, was this just a general inquiry into what happened on the scene?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, because we haven't speak up individuals, that "you must come, you must come, you must come", because it was the overall issue of the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so it is - there was never a situation where Mr Gonya as an individual was charged for having done anything wrong.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: He appeared as one of the people at the general inquiry.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Mr Nompozolo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just explain one thing here.  Tell me, Mr Mkosana, the use of the rocket launcher by Gonya, wasn't it something you took a bit seriously?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.  ...(indistinct - mike not on)

ADV SANDI: Did you say you took it seriously?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, I took it seriously.

ADV SANDI: What steps did you take to show that this was a matter that you took seriously?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's why I've decided to appeal.  It was also my initiative to tell Mr Skrube that Gonya must also apply for amnesty because he'll be in trouble because he  ...(indistinct) violence, if under instructions of myself.

ADV SANDI: But I don't know, according to the papers I have before me, you appeared before the Special Board of Inquiry, didn't you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

ADV SANDI: And that appears from page 20 to 24.  When you appeared there, you were asked a number of questions which you answered.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir,

ADV SANDI: Did you say anything at the Board of Inquiry about the manner in which Gonya had conducted himself?  He had used a rocket launcher without authority from you.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir, I mentioned to Maj Skrube that Gonya had fired with a rocket launcher without my orders.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but that does not appear in these papers.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I think Sir, in myself, that's why Gonya is here today.  I don't know why he didn't appear on that Board of Inquiry, because I have stated to Mr Skrube.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Mr Nompozolo.

MR SIBANYONI: Before he used this rocket launcher, you saw that he was armed with it, is that so?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, he was allocated with that one, that rifle.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, he was allocated with it.  At what stage was he supposed to use it?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: He was supposed to use it when the situation prevailed under my orders.  When the situation is tense, when I take that initiative that now it is the time that I must fire with rocket launcher, its the time that I will give him an order to fire, not individualities' own orders.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you supposed to give him different orders than those which you gave to Mbina?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.  That's why that rocket launcher was employed in my vehicle.  I would give him that fire - two rounds per minute, maybe fire, five round per minute.

MR SIBANYONI: Was that pre-arranged?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Now is it correct that the firearms, that includes rocket launchers and every weapon which was used on the day in question, they were taken out of the armoury and allocated to each and every soldier who was going to be deployed?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it also correct that soldiers were not given any briefing but they were just deployed there?  There was no briefing in the army that: "We are going to do this and this."  It was said that the police would be in the forefront and then it's only when the police cannot settle the situation that the soldiers will take over?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No Sir, orders were given.  Every soldier knows that he will have an operation that on the 7th of September and then we'll be deployed at the stadium.  Everybody was given orders.  I've given a warning order to my deputy and then I also to affect my own orders and then I give them to my 2 IC, my second in command, give them to the Majors and the Majors go to the troops specific on the ground to tell them:  "We're going to deploy this way, because then such and such and such and such."

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, but according to my instructions there were no orders as to - there were no orders as to:  "We are going there to attack or to do this."  The troops were just given armoury and were told that they will only be deployed at such and such a place.