Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What I am saying is I told him everything that he came and stood by the gate and called out to my son, he said Dududu, Morene, and he said Lucky, these are the boys that they used to perform the traditional dance with.

MR STRYDOM: All I want to know you told the Police who took the statement, the same information you gave us regarding Mtwana Zulu?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, as I have just explained it to you, that is what I told them.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me Mr Strydom, who said Morene?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was Mtwana.

MR STRYDOM: When the statement was read over to you again, didn't you find it strange that that reference to Mtwana Zulu did not appear in that statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I would not know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he wants to put to you is that in the statement that you made to the Police, there is no mention of Mtwana.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give any reason ...

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know about that, but he did call out to my son.  I told my son to go hide himself.  He called out to three boys.

MR STRYDOM: Did you tell the three boys to go and hide themselves?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: These boys used to dance with him, he used to teach them the traditional dance.  I do not know why he was calling out to them.

MR STRYDOM: That is not the question, the question is when Mtwana called the names of the boys, did you tell them "go and hide yourselves"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: One was at the neighbour's house and the other was further on down at Nqwani's house.  He just called out their names.

CHAIRPERSON: What he wants to know is, when Mtwana Zulu called the names of your two sons, did you tell your two sons to go and hide?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I only told my son Dududu who was with me in the house.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something?  The other two names Morene and Lucky, who are they?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They are the boys who used to dance, to perform this traditional dance, the Tsongola dance with him.

MR LAX: Are they your sons or do they belong to other  families, what is the story?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They are not my sons, they are the neighbours.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: And Dududu is one of your sons?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, he is my son.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see Mtwana standing outside your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said he did not stand outside my house, when they come out of Buwa's household, he called out these names.  I was watching them when they attacked these two other houses.

MR STRYDOM: You already testified Buwa's house is just opposite yours, so he was standing - was he standing in the middle of the street between the two houses?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He was standing on the lawn and he called out to them, calling Dududu, Lucky, Morene.  We were watching him.  The people were coming out of Victor's house and they proceeded to my gate, which they broke.  The people who came out of Buwa's house, did not come to my house, they just left.

MR STRYDOM: I am not talking about other people, I want to know about Mtwana.   Was he standing on your lawn or on Buwa's lawn?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He was standing on the Buwa's lawn.

MR STRYDOM: And was he facing in the direction of your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He was just calling the names as they were coming out of the gate.  I did not notice which direction he was facing.

MR STRYDOM: So you did not see his face, is that what you say?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying to you right now, I know that you are Mr Strydom, I knew Mtwana from a long time ago and when he got married to that lady who stays in my neighbourhood, I know him.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, the question is ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see his face as he was standing at Buwa's lawn?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did see his face.

MR STRYDOM: But you said he was not facing you or the direction of your house, how did you manage to see his face?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: If you are facing that direction, would you not be able to see my face?  Would you only be able to see my face if I face you directly?

MR STRYDOM: Are you saying you saw him from the side, is that what you are saying?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw him just as I am seeing you now.

MR STRYDOM: But I am facing you Mr Baloyi, did you see him as you are seeing me now, that is you saw him face to face or did you see his side?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: When he called out Lucky, these three boys were at different houses.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see the side of Mtwana's face when he called out the names?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying that I saw him.  Yes, I saw him whether from the side or in front, but I saw him.

MR SIBANYONI: But on that day did you see him from his side or from his front of his face?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: If you are looking at me, would you not be able to see what this person looks like?

MR SIBANYONI: May I just explain to you Mr Baloyi that as the Chairperson has requested  you that if you answer the questions directly, that will shorten the cross-examination for you, but if you are not doing that, it is going to take long because Mr Strydom would like to get certain information from you.  If you respond immediately, directly as he is asking you, that will enable him to finish the cross-examination earlier.  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I do.

MR SIBANYONI: If I can ask, were you looking at him from his side or from directly in front of him when he was calling the names?  Were you able to see his face from the front?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I just saw him in front.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: The other two names, Morene and Lucky, you say they are not your children.  Which houses do they stay at?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They are the neighbours.

MR STRYDOM: Direct neighbours, that is to say the house directly next to you or lower down the street, or what?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The last house.

MR STRYDOM: The last house in the direction of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The last house towards Madala.

MR STRYDOM: Is that Lucky that stays there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Lucky's house is next door to Nqwani's.

MR STRYDOM: Which one of the boys stay there then, Morene then, that is at the last house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, Morene stays at the corner.  His surname is Dube.  Lucky stays at a house next door to the Nqwani's.

MR STRYDOM: I don't know that house, is it lower down the street in Bafokeng, towards Slovo Park?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot compare Slovo Park with Bafokeng.  They stay in my neighbourhood.

MR STRYDOM: How many houses from you does Lucky stay?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Lucky's house is next door to Nqwani's and my house is in the other direction.

MR STRYDOM: So is the house on the other side of the street, opposite you?  Just before you answer this, maybe we can shorten this, can you give the number of the house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know the number.

MR STRYDOM: The question I want to ask you, can you give - I want to put to you that Mtwana was not in Boipatong that night.  Do you want to comment on that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not think that he was absent as a person who was in charge of the hostel, there was no way he was not there.

MR STRYDOM: Are you saying that the reason why you say he was there, is because he won't let those people from kwaMadala go alone, he would go with them, he is a leader?  Is that what you are saying?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, as I said before, his in-law's house was also in the area.  They did not go there, just went and attacked my home.