Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR WILLIAMS: I cannot hear what you said.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Would you like to clarify or tell us why you feel regret?

MR RHEEDE: Mr Chairperson, I understand that to an extent why Mr Williams asked this question, I just do not know what the relevance is in the light of the fact that Mr Hardien is a witness in this matter.  My instructions are that he would not like to testify about his personal feelings.

CHAIRPERSON: Well although the question of reconciliation and regret isn't a criteria to be taken into account by the Committee in the granting or refusal of amnesty, we, certainly us as a Panel here, believe that it's not out of place for such matters to be raised and aired at hearings of this nature.  The question's not going to in any way implicate him in any wrongdoing, the question is therefore allowed, but on the other hand we're not going to force anybody to express their feelings in this matter.  So all that I can rule is that the question is fair, but it's up to the witness to answer or refuse.  It's up to him if he wants to express his regret or explain why he feels regret.  It's up to him, he can tell us.

MR RHEEDE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Could you just give me a moment with Mr Hardien, if I could just explain this to him.  Mr Chairperson, my instructions are that he does not want to talk about it, so I think we should continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Gakkie, we as the victims are here today to finally hear the truth, so that we can place that part of our history behind us and continue with the future.  Are you willing to assist us in this process and tell the truth to this Committee?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: You understand that it was is an offence to tell lies under oath?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I understand that, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now is it true and that both of us grew up together in Kewtown?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That's correct.

MR WILLIAMS: We lived approximately 100 metres from each other.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And at a certain stage you were quite involved in the community, with a soccer club and with other activities in the community where you attempted to keep the youth off the streets, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLIAMS: At that stage you also did a lot of good things, you did these things to prevent that some of the young men became gangsters, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words at the stage when I met you, you did very good things for the community and in the community, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: We became friends, we had discussions with each other and so forth and the two of us had a good relationship at a certain stage, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: You even asked me to join the soccer club, I was the secretary of the soccer club and so forth?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you see me drink or smoke?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Or fight in the community?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Or argue with people?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Never.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you get the impression that I care for the community and I tried to assist them and help them and I want our community to go forward?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, is it so that at a certain stage when politics became prominent in the community - and I want you to bear in mind there was a time when there were no boycotts or riots, I'm talking about the stage when it was '83/'84, when there was talk that the UDF was established, so people started talking about politics, but there were no actions really in the community, can you recall that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but is it so that the two of us had a discussion about politics and we joked about it and you always said that: "No, I'm on the side of the white man" and I always said the opposite or said that I was against the State dispensation and we talked about it and we never argued about it, but as normal people we had discussions about it, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, we had a lot of conversations, but I cannot exactly say that we had that specific conversation.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but now I'm trying to tell the Committee what our relationship was, we knew that we did not believe in the same things in terms of politics, to such an extent that we believed in completely different things, opposite sides of the political spectrum, but apart from this we did get along.  Now do you know me as a person with which you can differ ideologically, my view on life, politics, soccer, but I will still be able to have a relationship with you on a normal and proper way and even attempt to talk to you and try to convince you to believe in - to change your mind, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, let us talk about Kewtown.  The Committee and many people here do not know Kewtown as a community, you and I come from that community and we know the factors that play a role, why some of our young men become gangsters in the community.  We do not condemn the community but it is so that some of the young men who live in Kewtown turn to gangsterism, they become part of certain gangs.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it so that there is not a lot of young people who come from our community who at the end of the day go to university or as the people say, made something of their lives, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And will you agree with me that at that stage when I was at university, then there were probably at the most 10 people in the community who went to university?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I was not aware of it.  I know that Mr Williams went.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but is it so that myself, Oesman Alexander, Chris Ferndale, Bruce Malgas, our girlfriends, mine and Oesman's girlfriends were some of the few who lived in the community and also reached that level of education?  Apart from us there were probably three or four more, can you deny that or dispute that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words there were not a lot of young people who were interested in learning?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I would agree with that, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Just for a minute or two I'd like to talk about gangs in Kewtown.  For you who came from this community, it's very easy for you to spot a gangster, you can easily say this is one or that's one and for the community itself it's very easy to determine who are part of a gang and who are not, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now how do you know who is a member of a gang, who is a gangster, who is not a gangster?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, you come from Kewtown, you yourself know how you know if somebody's from a gang or not.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but is it so that at that stage the gangsters held meetings at the Athlone North School, they were involved fighting for example, they committed crimes together and because of those facts you can then infer that they were gangsters or not gangsters and sometimes it's very difficult for somebody who did not grow up in such an environment or in such a community, to understand what the relationship is between a person who grew up in that community but who did not turn to gangsterism.  And I'd like to deal with that specific aspect now.
	Can you tell the Committee what would happen with you as a person if you grew up in that community, but you - let's say for example, you are a young man, you do not greet the gangsters, you never talk to them, you just walk past them, will this place your life in danger?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Is that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that's so.