Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-30

MR MTHEMBU: Were you acting as a result of an order given by your organisation and if so, could you tell the Committee who gave the order and when?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: That is so.  The instruction from the organisation that we should protect the community, the self-defence unit was formed because the community was attack and members of the various political organisations were attacked.  The Executive Committee made a plea that there should be self-defence units so that be able to protect members and the community at large.

MR MTHEMBU: Now, the order that you say was given by your organisation, was this an ...[indistinct] or was - are you saying it was an order given with regard to this specific incident - could you explain to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt there if you don't mind and ask him - on that particular day, who gave you the instructions that - let us get into the Kombi to go where you went, where you killed the deceased?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: When we arrived at our camp, the message arrived that the Three Million gang is attacking the area, therefore we went so that we should go and protect the people who were attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said: "Let us go"?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: As a unit we were having a commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: Machaba Thulo.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you understand the question well Mr Mohasa?  Did your commander tell you to get into the Kombi to go to Gelukwaarts?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: Yes, that is so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I thought he was the one who was being attacked at Gelukwaarts, so it can't be him?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: We were together with him in the camp, then he said we received a message that people were attacked at Gelukwaarts, attacked by the Three Million gang.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, when you got the message in your camp that the Three Million gang were attacking at Gelukwaarts, you still had your commander with you - Mr Thulo was with you when you got that message?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: The message - he is the one who received the message.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm a little confused because I thought in your evidence you said when you got to Gelukwaarts you found that your commander was being attacked.

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: We left in a Kombi, we drove to Gelukwaarts.  On our arrival we took different directions to investigate the direction of the attack and we assembled together and when we assembled, we found our commander being attacked - that is where we started the shooting.

MR MTHEMBU: Now, you testified that you were also a member of the self-defence unit.

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: That is correct.

MR MTHEMBU: Now, was the task or the purpose of the self-defence unit not to defend rather than to be on the offensive?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: The task of the self-defence unit was to protect.

MR MTHEMBU: Do you have anything further that you wish to add with regard to this incident Mr Mohasa?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: What I would add is that - in regard to this incident, if we didn't go there to see as to whether people were protected something bigger than this would happen.

MR MTHEMBU: And is that your evidence with regard to this incident?

ADV DE JAGER: He was also convicted in this connection of pointing a firearm and possession of a firearm and ammunition and for not attending court.

MR MTHEMBU: With due respect Committee member, on my reading of the bundle ...[indistinct] that with regard to the possession of a firearm - which he was sentenced I think sometime in July and with regard to the contempt charge I think it was around September or so of that year, so I'm not certain if the two other offences are related to the murder one or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohasa, you were convicted of illegal possession of a firearm, is that correct?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the same firearm that you used in shooting the deceased in this case or was it a different firearm?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: It is the same gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get this gun from?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: I was given - comrade Victor gave it to me, ...[indistinct] from Daveyton.

CHAIRPERSON: For what purpose was it given to you?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: The reason was that I should be able to protect members of the community against the Three Million gang because all the time members of the gang were armed, so we couldn't defend the people without arms - I guess the people who were armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it given to you in your capacity as a member of the SDU?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Does the same thing apply to the ammunition on which you were convicted?  In other words, I'm trying to find out - when this gun was given to you, was it given together with the ammunition?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: He gave me the gun only, the ammunition were given in terms of the situation.  You'd be given ammunitions if there is an incident which you need to go there and defend, then they would count them how many bullets you have used, then others would be returned so that there would not be a conflict that other bullets have been lost and they've been used without an instruction from the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you point with a firearm?  Didn't they find you guilty of pointing somebody with a firearm?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: I was found guilty by pointing a person with a firearm, that is when we were attacked by the police, then yes, I did shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this - in Kroonstad?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: That was in Kroonstad at Pumalung location.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you point with this firearm - a policeman?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: Yes, it's a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: What was happening?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: We were attacked, then I was shot in that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: By the police?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: Yes, that is correct - by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it during a robbery or what?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: No, we were attacked by the police - I was shot in that incident on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were the police attacking you?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: We believed that the police were supporting the Three Million gang to harass the community and then because the police knew that the - our bases. When they leave from the police station to do patrols, they would do only those patrols in Pumalung because our bases were there.  And then again on that day of the attack, we heard sounds of the whistles and then when we went outside we heard gunshots and the police were shooting and then I was shot on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  This whistle, was it an arrangement in the area which you people were protecting?  That if there was an attack imminent or something happening, the person would blow a whistle to call for help or what?  What was the position with this whistle?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: Yes, that is correct.  If there was an attack somebody would blow a whistle, then we'd go to the direction of the sound, then when there is - we'd go there and observe, then maybe we'd find that the Three Million gang were attacking or maybe the police are attacking.

CHAIRPERSON: People had whistles at their places?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, I think we have covered the pointing and the possession of the firearm and the ammunition.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair.  That will be the applicant's testimony with regard to the first application.

CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed to the next one.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Mohasa, is it further correct that you were also convicted of murder and attempted murder of an incident which occurred in Daveyton in Gauteng?

GIFT SEKITLA MOSES MOHASA: That is correct.