Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

JUDGE WILSON: In the photograph, that is half open?

MR CORNELIUS: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Can you indicate approximately where you were seated?

MR CORNELIUS: (d) is a raised area, behind where more or less the first table was, on that raised area, we were seated.  Therefore I still maintain that they had to come through the door, there are several pillars in the way and aim through to shoot at us.  I can specifically remember that there were not random fire, it was two shots at a time as it was aimed at people specifically inside this place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well any way.  You formulated your question and the question is that he entered, or was in that doorway which is shown as (h) on this sketch plan and you've got the answer that he did not enter or go beyond that doorway, he stood there.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, he has said as I understand it Mr Chairman, that he didn't, he stood at the doorway to the right, where he has indicated.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That is the other disputive fact.  Please understand, this photograph on which you have shown where you stood, is the doorway, double door, it is said that on that occasion that door was closed.

JUDGE WILSON: Locked.

CHAIRPERSON: Locked and the only entrance that was used, was this door here.  Now just to clear it all up once again, what do you say?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I dispute that.  As I said, I was on this position.  I was the first person to shoot out of the group.  Next to me was Xolani Jantjie, he was standing on my left.  I cannot answer about the small door, I was by the big door, it was opened at the time of the incident, because I was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions in that regard?

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, I just want to say again that on the video it can be seen that that door was locked from the inside, it was never used as an entrance.

CHAIRPERSON: Any way, you've got a contradiction here.  Is there any other question you wish to put?

MR CORNELIUS: Not at this point, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Anybody else?

MR PRIOR: There is no one else at this stage Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Somebody raising a hand there.

MR PRIOR: It looks like Fourie.

CHAIRPERSON: Your full name please.

MRS FOURIE: Mrs Jeanette Anne Fourie.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions you wish to put to this applicant?

MRS FOURIE: I do, please Mr Chairman.  I would like to ask Mr Gqomfa, he has just made a statement that he didn't aim at Mr Cornelius, who did he aim at and did he know who he was aiming at?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I think I said I had not gone there to specifically shoot him, I had gone there to shoot any living thing.  It was my aim to shoot anybody within that Tavern.  I do not know Mr Cornelius, it is the first time I hear of him today.

MRS FOURIE: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, there is no further questions from my side.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that counsel for the implicated people, since they have not been implicated, you are not effected by the evidence, is that correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to re-examine this witness?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just one or two questions Mr Chairman.  Mr Gqomfa, you have already indicated that Xolani Jantjie was standing to your left, is that right?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So, you've got the photograph in front of you, the first photograph you made a mark on the right bottom side of the double door, is that right where you were standing?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So where was, can you mark where Jantjie was standing?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: As you are looking at the photograph, I am standing at the right, he was on the left side of the wall.  We were shooting as the witness was showing.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words he was standing to your left?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that about where, what seems to be a bit of newspaper, is lying?

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at that photograph, you can see there is something white lying on the ground.  If it helps at all?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in that vicinity?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, he was right next to that paper.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether all this helps in any way whatsoever, because it might be adequate to know that Jantjie was standing to the left of him, facing the door.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, with respect, it would be important to know where he was standing if you look at the sketch, one will see that the raised area where Mr Cornelius was sitting with some of the deceased, is then almost obliquely opposite where Jantjie would have stood at the double doors.  If you look at (g) and (f), then it is quite possible that those shots were fired in that direction.

CHAIRPERSON: That is merely a sketch you know?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well, reference was made to the sketch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And I would be the first to agree that if you go through the side entrance at (h) and there is a little hallway there, you've got to go in and go around, but if you were standing, it is also my logic that if you were standing in the vicinity of (g) and those double doors were open, you could be shooting directly in the vicinity of (d), (c) and (b) without going in.

CHAIRPERSON: What is there in the sketch plan at (h) which prevents him from shooting in the direction where the witness said he was?

NORMAN ARENDSE: That person would have to go in, as I see it.  And it would also appear to be the case from the video.

JUDGE WILSON: There is a wall there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the evidence is that they went in.

JUDGE WILSON: They would have to go in, pass that wall, you couldn't shoot from here?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, quite right.  Yes, well, you've got two views as to whether they entered in the first place or not.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence against them is that they entered and the applicant maintains that they didn't enter, they stood at the door.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Gqomfa, can you remember how far were these, if you look at the other photographs, photograph 2, the one at the bottom, these benches here, can you remember how far they were from where you were standing?

CHAIRPERSON: Which photograph are you looking at?  On page 2?  I can't make head or tail of this.  One doesn't know where the cameraman was standing to take these photographs, they are not particularly helpful.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I am asking Mr Gqomfa a question.

CHAIRPERSON: As him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I am asking him can he remember how far this bench was away from where he was standing.  The one on page 2 of the photograph?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I am not sure whether this was the bench where the two people I shot, was sitting.  The two people I shot were almost directly opposite me.  They were not far from me either.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I also see if you go back to page 1 of the photographs, I see on the right of the double door there, there is a window that appears to be balconies.  Do you know anything about that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I am not sure, everybody that was with me was shooting.  The people I was concentrating on, were the people right in front of me.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You mentioned in your evidence in chief, that you were armed with an AK47 rifle, do you remember that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, that was not disputed, do you remember, it hasn't been challenged that you were with an AK47 rifle?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You will also remember I asked a question what were the make of the cartridges which were found lying on the floor inside the Tavern and the answer was that they come from R4 rifles, do you remember that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I remember.