Human Rights Violation Hearings — Tembisa — 1996-11-27

UNKNOWN: Yes it was the first time that I have noticed this kind of attack in Ivory Park.

YASMINE SOOKA: Had there been trouble between the residents of Ivory Park and any other people?

UNKNOWN: No there has never been any problems with the residents of other factions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Manganye, we welcome you. Even though we have organised that you all sit here at the same time, we will however give each of you -, we will request you to tell us what you remember about what happened at that time as far as you can remember.

UNKNOWN: I stayed a bit far from these ladies but my TEMBISA HEARING  TRC/GAUTENG
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child had visited my friends here.  Whilst I was sleeping I heard some gun shots I woke up and I opened the door and I realised that there were a lot of lights in the soccer field and I got worried because my child was not at home.
 We woke up the following morning and went to the field. When we got there people were lying around there and many people were dead and people were talking to white policemen who were in a Caspar.  I thought maybe it was an accident that happened there.  It was at Umfuleni, but when I went to my sister's house where my child was sleeping, I couldn't find her but this lady was sitting outside her door crying, and I asked where the children are.  She said, she does not know but they're at the hospital, whether they are alive or not, she cannot tell. I started crying as well.
 I went back home and I decided to go to the hospital as well, but when we got to the hospital we found that people were injured.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you.  In your statement you have stipulated a different time from the others as if you had heard about this around about a quarter to three. Can you tell us about when this started and what you heard and when?

UNKNOWN: I heard some noise of gunshots, it was
round about three o'clock, before three o'clock. When I decided to open there were some bright lights in the ground, in the open field as if it was broad daylight but I started to go back in the house, but when we decided to go to the open field, the following morning, we found people who were talking there and there we some people who were lying around who had been injured and some were already taken to hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: The way you explain it, it's as if some TEMBISA  HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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people were injured at Umfuleni and some here on the open field, but the others who testified tell us about those who were injured inside the garage.

UNKNOWN: It means that before I went to the garage, I passed the open field.  That's where dead people were lying around, so I thought this incident only happened in the open field, and then even those who were at Umfuleni, they were already taken to hospital and I found this lady sitting outside the garage and crying.  But before I can reach the garage, I have to pass this open field.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that you started by the field, we know that it's not an easy thing to try and recall this, but if you can just try and recall, let your memory, in order to help us, more or less what time was it when you got to the ground?

UNKNOWN: It was just before 7 o'clock when I went to the open field, but the gun shots were in the morning before 3 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to try and remember as to how many people you saw and just to try and give us a picture in order to help us, because we are trying to find out about things that we never saw.

UNKNOWN: I cannot tell you how many people were there because people were just lying around and I was scared, and as I tried to look further, the policemen chased us away and even other people, because some people were saying that, maybe some of their relatives must be lying here, but I just decided to go to the garage section.  That's where I found that people were injured as well, so I realised that this went as far as Umfuleni and I realised that my child was taken with the people that were in the garage to hospital.
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CHAIRPERSON: Do you know this policeman who said people must move.

UNKNOWN: No, I do not know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a black or a white policeman?

UNKNOWN: He was a black policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: How many policemen were there?

UNKNOWN: There were many policemen and some were inside the Caspar.

CHAIRPERSON: The people who were lying down, were they injured or were they dead already?

UNKNOWN: They were dead already and some were covered already.

CHAIRPERSON: I heard that you were scared look ...(indistinct), if you can try and help us and tell us how many people there were?

UNKNOWN: I didn't see how many people, because even myself, I'm a coward, I just became scared.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us whether there were two or three in number?

UNKNOWN: The person that I saw clearly was the person who was lying on the ground, they shot him and he
was facing towards his shack but most of them were just lying on the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: You child that you said had visited your sister, how old was your child?

UNKNOWN: He was five years old at that time but now he is nine years.

CHAIRPERSON: When you found your child, you found the said lady who told you that your child is at hospital?

UNKNOWN: And she gave me my child's card and showed me that my child is definitely in hospital.
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CHAIRPERSON: When you got to hospital, do you remember in what situation your child was in?

UNKNOWN: I found that my child was shot in the leg and the leg was elevated and my sister's child was also shot as well and the bullet is still embedded in her body but this lady's child was already dead at that time.  We were not allowed to see her.

CHAIRPERSON: As someone who went into the children's ward, how many children were shot that day?

UNKNOWN: I think and it was my child and my sister's child.

CHAIRPERSON: After this were there any means by which you tried to get some legal representation?

UNKNOWN: I tried but I realised that you need finance to get a lawyer, and as I am not working, I could not afford this and I couldn't even fetch my child from hospital because of finance.  I did go to some lawyers in Kempton Park but they needed finance and I didn't even have money for transport, and that's when I gave up.

CHAIRPERSON: I thank you.  I'll hand over to my colleagues for any further questions to clarify your
matter.  Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: After all of this happened, were you able to talk to people in Ivory Park to find out what had happened that night?

UNKNOWN: I don't know, all I heard was gun shots, as to what happened, I don't know?  There was no fight during that day, there were no signs of unrest.

YASMINE SOOKA: Had there been unrest in Ivory Park before this incident?

UNKNOWN: No there was no fighting in Ivory Park before TEMBISA  HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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this.

YASMINE SOOKA: What were people saying Mama, after this incident had happened? Who were they saying had attacked, did people think it was the police, who did people think were the attackers?

UNKNOWN: I don't understand.

YASMINE SOOKA: After such an incident, people don't keep quiet about this kind of thing.  They usually discuss it amongst themselves, now what were your neighbours saying, who did they think had been the attackers?

UNKNOWN: I think nothing about that.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you Mama.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to really thank all of you.  Before I do that, Yasmin Sooka has got a question.

YASMINE SOOKA: I have this question for Mrs Mundau.  Mama can you tell me, do you think this attack took place because perhaps your husband was a member of the community association?

MRS MUNDAU: I don't think that is the case because the people he was leading loved him so much and even after this incident they came to help him.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce Seroke?