Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MR DEHAL: And this is dealt with in bundle A1, as item 17 on page 9.  Now will you please read the next two pages into the record.  Slowly please.
MR LECORDIER
"The persons involved in this operation were comrade Robert, Greta Apelgren and I.  On the morning of the Magoo's incident, comrade Robert came to see me.  He told to make myself available at about 7pm.  He told me that he was going to leave a car for another MK unit which they were going to pick up in the city centre.
		He came and picked me up that night and drove me into town.  Just before we got into the city centre, there was a bump on the highway.  As we drove over the bump, Robert explained to me that there were explosives in the boot of the car. 	I did not think he was serious.  
		We drove into town and we stopped outside Hyperama House and Home, in West Street.  Robert then told me that we must get out of his car and go into Greta's car, which was parked nearby.  I walked with Robert and got to Greta's car and she was instructed by Robert to drive.
		We then drove to the Marine Parade.  There Robert instructed Greta to drive on the Marine Parade.  How precisely we drove I cannot remember, which parts of the streets we drove on, I can't remember.  I do know that we drove on the Marine Parade.  She was then instructed to drive back to the vicinity of the Hyper House and Home, where our car was parked.  This she did.
		When we got to our car (sorry, there's a typing error there) ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Where the word "her" appears on the last line of (3), we changed to "our" and then also the first line of (4), we change the word "her" to "our".  Is that right?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, Mr Chairman.
"When we got to out car at the Hyper House and Home, both Robert and I alighted from her car and entered our car.  Robert and I then got into the blue Ford Cortina and drove and Robert told Greta to follow us.
		When we got to the bottom of Pine Street, in the vicinity of Point Road, Robert told me to wait there and handed me a firearm, which he cocked before giving to me.  He instructed me that if any person were to come to this vehicle to search the vehicle, I am to shoot them.  He also told me that I am to wait there and he would return within a short while to meet me.
		Comrade Robert then got into the vehicle with Greta Apelgren and they drove off.  After a short while comrade Robert returned on foot to my vehicle, got into the vehicle and drove to the Marine Parade.
		We then drove to the Marine Parade where Greta Apelgren was parked in a space which was not a parking bay, closest to the Why Not bar.  Details that I subsequently acquainted myself on.  Comrade Robert signalled to Greta to come out of the space and as she did that, Robert parked the blue Ford Cortina in that space.
		This was the spot nearest to the Why Not bar.  It was drizzling at the time and it was shortly after 9pm.  The Marine Parade was not too busy at the time, as it was drizzling and getting late in the evening.
		Comrade Robert asked me to get the numberplate of the vehicle from the front and hand it to him, which I did.  Robert instructed me to be vigilant and to watch around to see if we were being watched.  He also instructed me to keep the firearm in readiness.  Comrade Robert then showed me a pin.  	I may at this stage indicate that comrade Robert had trained us that whenever an explosive device is detonated, the pin removed is to be shown to the Commander before it is disposed of where convenient.  The reasoning for this is firstly, that it is confirmation that the explosive device has been initiated and secondly, to prevent any abuse.  The moment comrade Robert showed me the pin I knew immediately that this was a car bomb operation."

MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, the word "defused" is to read initiated.   Carry on, Mr Lecordier.  ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just explain that, Mr Lecordier.  What do you mean "showed me a pin"?  Showed you a pin that was lying on the seat, or what is the situation?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Mr Chairman, he told me that I must look around to see if anybody is watching us and that's when he said he's going to pull the pin of the bomb itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this?  Was it in the boot of the vehicle, or ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: From what I recall it was - sorry, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the pin when you saw it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: In comrade Robert's hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh okay, so he just showed you a pin, you didn't know where he had pulled it from or whatever?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Lecordier, you say that it was a disciplinary rule that when a detonator is activated, the pin is to be shown to your Commander.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: And did you say there are basically two reasons, the one is to show that the detonator has been activated or initiated?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: And secondly, to prevent abuse.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: Now in this case, when comrade Robert showed you a pin, did you understand that he had now activated an explosive?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's how I understood it.

MR DEHAL: And by the way he carried himself within the car, did you understand that the explosive was within the car?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: And you say then you now came to know that this was a car bomb operation.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  May I take you then to (ix), where you say
"Comrade Robert and I then walked to where Greta was, got into the vehicle, later filled petrol and drove back to Wentworth."
Do you see that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That's paragraph 11, Mr Dehal.

MR DEHAL: Sorry.  Thank you, that's paragraph 11.
	And then go to paragraph 12.
MR LECORDIER
"On the way we got to the top of Ridge Road where we stopped at a spot near the Ridge Road Police Station.  And Robert said he wanted to establish which way the cops were going.  He was concerned that we may have cordoned ourselves within the circle thrown around the town.
		Thereafter we drove on a roundabout route back to Wentworth.  When we got to Wentworth, Robert drove me to my home, where he left me and he and Greta drove off.  Greta was smartly dressed on that night."

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Then you deal with three operations, all of which took place on the same day/night, namely the 21st and 22nd of June.  That's the
Umlaas Mobile Oil pipeline explosion;
	The mini-limpet mine explosion at the vegetable oil tank and;
	The limpet mine explosion outside the Copper Shop.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: You were involved in all three these operations.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I was.

MR DEHAL: And these operations all took place on the same day, following into that night.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: Leading up to that night.  Now may we start with - sorry, the sequence of these operations is as per Annexure A1 in bundle - sorry A1 on pages 9 and 10.  Do you remember that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: You're simply following that sequence, is it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: Shall we begin with the Umlaas Mobile Oil pipeline.  You have one paragraph there.  Sorry, before we deal with that.  You seek amnesty for each of these applications, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Now will you read that which you have under the Umlaas Mobile Oil pipeline.
MR LECORDIER
"There were three operations ..."
...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The word "exposition" should read "explosion".

MR DEHAL: I'm sorry.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.