Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were also - the Chairman debated with you the possibility of somebody taking some form of legal action after their dismissal from the CCB, I take it you'll agree with me one could hardly have gone to the Industrial Court to say: "I work for a secret organisation that kills people and I've been unfairly dismissed"?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I do not think so, unless you've got facts to substantiate it, facts which will expose people.  You could done it then.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Sorry, I'm not sure I understand your answer.  I'm putting a very simple question to you, you could hardly have taken legal ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: You have to settle with "hardly".  It was an option, but hardly, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.  You will agree with me that even if the CCB had decided that they no longer liked a particular employee, and in an ideal world might want to get rid of them, it may well be that they couldn't afford to get rid of such a person because if they fired them, that disgruntled employee might pose a security risk to the organisation.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It's a possibility.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KAHANOVITZ

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Kahanovitz.  Ms Coleridge, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MS COLERIDGE: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Botha, just after the Athlone Early Learning Centre you and Mr van Zyl made your way to the airport, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MS COLERIDGE: And then you were met there by Burger.  We know that Burger was the Regional Manager of Region 6, is that right?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you discuss this matter with Mr Burger when you arrived at the airport and when he collected you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, we discussed it there.

MS COLERIDGE: And we also know that the person that was with Mr Burger collecting you was Mr Maree, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: So you discussed the Athlone Early Learning Centre in the presence of Mr Maree, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As far as I can recall, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: So he would know about the incident involving the Athlone Early Learning Centre, that the bomb went off, etcetera, etcetera.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Most probably not the detail, but to an extent, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: But obviously you would discuss with Mr Burger ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr van Zyl would discuss that, I would not discuss it, Mr van Zyl would be doing that.

MS COLERIDGE: Mr van Zyl also then took you home in Mr Maree's vehicle, is that right?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As far as I can remember, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Okay.  We also know that Mr Maree didn't apply for amnesty for the Early Learning Centre.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He did not?

MS COLERIDGE: No.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I'm not sure about that, I accept that.

MS COLERIDGE: Just in terms of your Section 29 detention, you said that Mr Burger had informed you that Joe Verster had discussed with Webb your Section 29 detention and they were going to take up the matter with Gen Smit and/or Gen Joubert.  Now which Gen Joubert are you referring to?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Gen Joop Joubert.

MS COLERIDGE: Is it Joop Joubert?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And Gen Smit, who was he?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Where did I - excuse me, can I just ...(intervention)

MS COLERIDGE: Okay, I will refer ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Gen Smit is the Basie Smit of Narcotics, is it?

MS COLERIDGE: Page 7 of bundle B, Chairperson, the second paragraph from the bottom.
	You stated:
"Burger further said that he heard from Joe that Gen Webb gave a list of our names to Gen Smit or Joubert."

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, it's Gen Basie Smit.  I think a list was provided to say who was involved in this organisation.

MS COLERIDGE: And what were they going to do for you, why did you give them the list?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I didn't give them a list.

MS COLERIDGE: Why they give them the list?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Possibly to arrange for our release.  That's how I interpreted it.

MS COLERIDGE: And they was obviously aware of the CCB activities, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept Gen Smit, or it would have been Brig Smit who knew about it.

MS COLERIDGE: And then just one last question.  The Geoffrey you referred to, the person that you handled, what is his name?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Geoffrey, his name is Geoffrey.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, but what is his full name?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I don't have that anymore, I'm sorry.

MS COLERIDGE: You can't recall his name at all and you handled him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not at all, no.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you, Chairperson, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Eck, do you have any re-examination?

MR VAN ECK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Botha, much was made of your Section 29 statement and how it was deposed of and there were certain portions that you wrote yourself and that others were obtained from your questioning and so forth, does this statement follow any chronological order?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, it doesn't.

MR VAN ECK: If we look at the last section, you state there after you stated everything, that you wanted to add something more.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And it appears that this statement was compiled piece by piece.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Can you recall over what period this was done?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I cannot recall, I assume that it was for the duration of my detention, a few weeks.

MR VAN ECK: And on page 8 it is stated that Mr Engelbrecht told you to keep quiet and that he told you to keep quiet for about six to seven months.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did you take that seriously?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Very seriously.

MR VAN ECK: And then with regard to the Athlone incident, did you have any input into the decision making phase, with the exception of the physical handling of the bomb, as such?  Did you have any input into the decision of where it would be placed, the next steps to be taken and so forth?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: None whatsoever.

MR VAN ECK: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Botha, you were saying Mr Barnard communicated with you while he was in detention, did I understand you correctly?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I didn't say that, I said that a message was sent through to me.  I didn't communicate with him.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay.  In what manner was the message sent to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It may have been a variety of manners, possibly with the police officers who brought my meals to me, but I cannot tell you in which manner it was done.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this an oral message or a written message?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No it was simply a message that I received from somebody.  It was conveyed to me orally.

MR SIBANYONI: Were these police who were looking after him sympathetic towards him, I suppose to such an extent that they can bring a message to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I wouldn't say most probably to an extent sympathetic as well, we were treated like outcasts, so in all probability, yes.  But that wouldn't have meant a great deal to them, the Ponti and something like mentioning a name like W.  He wouldn't have said the name, he would have said W, something like that.  So it would have been a coded message which wouldn't have meant anything to the specific person relating the message to me.

MR SIBANYONI: Now let's come to the making of this statement, your Section 29 statement.  Were you ever forced, was any pressure applied ...(intervention)