Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

MR PRIOR: Because that was part of your instruction and your plan and your objective?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, that ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: But now she was getting away, you hadn't injured her, she had run out of the vehicle, that had stopped, she got picked up by the second vehicle and now she was getting away?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The time she was running out of his car to the coming car, out of her car to the approaching car, I didn't shoot.  We tried to chase them.

MR PRIOR: Why not?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We were chasing.  We thought we would be able to reach them if they are out of the car.

MR PRIOR: So you weren't worried that she would escape at that stage?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Then when they get inside the car then it was obvious that we not going to be able to reach them.

MR PRIOR: So in other words she was going to escape now?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And that's why you stopped, you stopped the vehicle from leaving?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And then to deal with, if they were living you would have killed them then?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.  That was the aim.

MR PRIOR: So you knew she was white before you saw her from the bridge in the car?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: From the signal I get from my ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Trusted Comrade.

MR PRIOR: Don't tell us you only saw she was white when you looked down from the bridge.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I, saw her on the bridge she, she was a female. When the car was passing us I was ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: The question wasn't that she was a female, Mr Dolo.  The question was that she was white.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That, yes I knew ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: And you said well I only saw whether she was white when I looked from the bridge.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, I didn't say so.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you did your will say that the transcript will show that, but anyway let's leave it and move on. I just need to ask you this question, sorry I'll pass on this one, it's more argument than anything, Mr Chairman.  You seem to have simply whatever vehicle arrived on the scene, just given instructions to your Comrades or yourself simply to have opened fire, except on the schoolteachers?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Because they were African people.

MR PRIOR: From that do I understand that it, it didn't even concern you whether people who were not African people, black people, whether they opposed the government or not, the apartheid government, it didn't make any difference to you?  They would be killed simply because of the colour of their skin?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Here in South Africa we have two kinds of people at that stage.  We have the African people and the so- called Coloureds, the Indians and the blacks people, were all those people African people.  Then the other group was the Settlers of which were the targets.

MR PRIOR: I'm just trying to understand the tragedy of, that you created on that day, because we don't know that Mrs Brummer we understand worked, had worked in Sterkspruit, which was predominantly a black area, is that right?  She worked in a shop there?  And that she would travel from Lady Grey to Sterkspruit virtually on a daily basis.  Let me just find out, Sterkspruit is a black area?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And she, that was her work, she went to work in that area to serve that community?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: To enrich herself.

MR PRIOR: Well she worked there, we don't know how wealthy she got.

CHAIRPERSON: She worked in a shop selling things there, I don't think you can by analogy say that is to serve the community.

MR PRIOR: Well the shop was there for the benefit for the community.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The  shop there to enrich themself.

MR PRIOR: Well then with respect the people had to buy furniture or had to use furniture, I don't know.  I leave that point, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Mr Prior, it's a matter for argument.  At the end of the day all black, all white people were the enemy as far as he's concerned, that, that's the end of it.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.  I don't have any further questions.  I need to indicate to the Committee that the family wish to have an opportunity via the elder brother, or the eldest son of the deceased to put questions to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Which family?

MR PRIOR: The victim's family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well there was at least three victims.

MR PRIOR: Mr Tsemane's family.  I said the eldest son of Mr Tsemane.  Mr Chairman, I understand that Mr Daniel Tsemane has some questions and he also indicated that the last question, if that could be asked by one of the other sons.  There's a particular sense to it, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, carry on.

MR D TSEMANE: Thank you Mr Chair.  My name is Daniel Tsemane.  I'm from Sterkspruit.  I want to hear from the applicant where exactly in Jozanna's Hoek where they based.  The family that host them in Jozanna.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Who are you asking, me?  Whom are you asking?

MR PRIOR: You, Mr Dolo.  Who do you think he's asking questions to?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think it is mentioned in my affidavits where ...(intervention)

MR D TSEMANE: Well, answer him, he hasn't read you affidavit.  Just answer him. You don't need to get aggro with him, just answer him.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I stayed at Jozanna's Hoek.

MR PRIOR: Yes, he said with which family did you stay at Jozanna's Hoek?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I forget the person who owned the house.  I take it, my Comrade would be of help in this one.

MR D TSEMANE: I would be pleased to hear the exact family where you were, where you were staying with.  Then the other question is, when you, when you arrived from your operation, how did that family who host you, feel or react when they hear, when they hear that Mr Tsemane was no more alive?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The family you are talking about, we, was not informed of anything of what we are involved in it.  After ...(indistinct) particular family, the house was our base.  The people that were inside the house, it were us, APLA cadres, who occupied the house.

MR D TSEMANE: Mr Dolo, I think you are not the person who's staying in Jozanna.  In Jozanna the house that you were staying in it, it was belonging to the other family whose in Jozanna.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: If there was such, or if there is such a person who owns the house he was not living with us at that stage.  The house was under our own control.  We used it as our house.

MR D TSEMANE: Thank you Mr Dolo, but as you said, your Comrade will assist you with the name of that family.  I would be pleased to hear that, thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Mr Dolo, are you saying you were the only people who occupied this house at that time?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The house was under our control.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer the question.  Were you the only people who occupied the house at that time?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There was one Comrade, whom I believed later that he was once the owner of the house, or, after we left he was the owner of the house.

ADV SANDI: Would I be correct to say that, from this answer you have just given me, you mean to say that there was no other person there who was not part of your group.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Except the person I have mentioned, the owner of the house.

ADV SANDI: The house was used specifically for housing APLA members?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At that stage it was specifically for, it was our base.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At that stage it was specifically for, it was our base.

MR TSEMANE: Thank you.

MR D TSEMANE: Through you, Mr Chairperson, through you, Mr Chairperson, Mr Dolo ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Please be quiet.

MR D TSEMANE: Mr Dolo, I don't understand you properly.  You say the house was under control, except for the person who thereafter appeared to be the owner.  Was that person staying with you at the time you were staying in that house?