Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-10

MR JANSEN: But at least you would agree that Mr Coetzee was supposed to have contacted or informed Colonel Flemington, perhaps not in detail but you were in his area, you were busy with something covert in his area.

MR DU PLESSIS: One would expect that, yes.

MR JANSEN: And even worse, what is your opinion of when somebody came into your area without informing you, use a member of his staff without telling him?

MR DU PLESSIS: I would react on that.

MR JANSEN: You would have been absolutely unhappy?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR JANSEN: This is why I'm putting it to you - as far as you can comment on that, that is not true that Flemington did not know anything about it?

MR DU PLESSIS: I don't know.

MR JANSEN: That is Mr Coetzee's version, that Flemington was there.

MR DU PLESSIS: I'm sorry about that, but by the end of the Harmse trial I saw him for the first time.

MR JANSEN: Did you know anything about the theft of this Audi on the 13th of September?

MR DU PLESSIS: No.

MR JANSEN: I want to take you to page 16 of your statement,  that's where you are Raath released Kondile from the cells.  Is it correct that you went directly to Port Elizabeth from Jeffrey's Bay?

MR DU PLESSIS: As far as I can remember, yes.

MR JANSEN: Well, it's improbable that you did anything else. You had to pick up van Rensburg in Port Elizabeth and then you left for Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: In Bloemfontein, Constable Raath got into Kondile's car.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: And you drove to Barbeton.

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I can't remember exactly which route we followed.

MR JANSEN: But it's not relevant what route you took but you went to a place where you left his car.

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: If you look at the cell registers 187 - Volume 2, page 187.  Reference has already been made to that, entry 630.  Can one accept that 630 is saying that Kondile is being released?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: Yesterday in your evidence you said that on the predetermined time of 6 o'clock you arrived at Komatiepoort?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct as far as I can remember.

MR JANSEN: And Mr van Rensburg on page 8 of Volume 1 in his statement at the bottom part, also confirms that you met Coetzee and Roy Otto there.  Can you explain how from 10 o'clock in Jeffrey's Bay till 6 o'clock at Komatiepoort, how did that happen?  That was - how did you do that?  200 kilometres per hour, it was eight hours.

MR DU PLESSIS: No, it was round about 10 hours.  We spent a lot of time along the road to wait, to make up time till 6 o'clock.  Sometimes we rested along the road and this is also why my evidence was that I think that we arrived in Bloemfontein at 12 o'clock at night.

MR JANSEN: In other words you never slept over, you drove right through the 10th and the 11th and then you arrived in Komatiepoort on the 11th?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: You don't think it's more probable that you could have slept over?

MR DU PLESSIS: We slept by the road, one slept and the other one remained awake.  We did not sleep in a police station or a hotel, we only rested along the road in the car.

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee says that his impression was that you slept over in Ermelo.

MR DU PLESSIS: I can't even think that we went to Ermelo, I don't even know how to get to Ermelo.

MR JANSEN: Would you agree that Mr van Rensburg - a year before that, that he was the commanding officer in Ermelo?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: And Mr Coetzee's version - according to Coetzee, many of van Rensburg's colleagues were in Ermelo.

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I don't them.

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee's version is that Chris Rorich and Chris Deetlefs were involved in this incident, they took Kondile's car to Swaziland.

MR DU PLESSIS: That I don't know.

MR JANSEN: They were stationed at Ermelo.

MR DU PLESSIS: It was probable that they were stationed there.

MR JANSEN: You mentioned - which name did you refer to?

MR DU PLESSIS: I met Rorich at headquarters and heard that he was stationed at Ermelo.

MR JANSEN: In all honesty I want to put it to you that I want to argue that it is probable that you slept over that night and it could have been Ermelo.

MR DU PLESSIS: I just want to ask from you - I'm not saying that we did not sleep over, but you're trying to put things to me that I don't understand.

MR JANSEN: Where did you sleep over?

MR DU PLESSIS: We slept along the national road at certain rest areas.  If you regard that as sleeping over, then we did.

MR JANSEN: I'm not regarding that as sleeping over but I understand what you mean.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Jansen, how far is Ermelo from Jeffrey's Bay?

MR DU PLESSIS: ...[inaudible]

MR JANSEN: They would definitely not have arrived there early.  I could give you the distances now. Jeffrey's Bay, Port Elizabeth 80/85 kilometres, Bloemfontein, 650 kilometres and then I don't know how far it is to Ermelo but to Nelspruit 750.  From Bloemfontein to Ermelo is I guess, about 500 kilometres, so it's about 1.200/300 kilometres.
	You will agree with me that a plan to leave Kondile's vehicle on the border, can be reconciled with the plan that you wanted to leave the impression that he had skipped the country and nobody knew where he was?

MR DU PLESSIS: As far as I know that was the plan.

MR JANSEN: In other words it can be reconciled with a plan to make Kondile disappear.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: Where is this story then - what it is about, that it was initially your plan to shoot him and then to leave him there on the border?

MR DU PLESSIS: This was a suggestion from Colonel van Rensburg because his argument was that there was no co-operation between Mozambique and South Africa and nothing would happen afterwards.

MR JANSEN: But you agree it does not fit in with the story that Kondile's car had to be left at the border.

MR DU PLESSIS: But I think when Colonel van Rensburg testifies he will be able to explain the position.

ADV GCABASHE: If I might ask, at which point did you decide to abandon van Rensburg's plan and go with Dirk Coetzee's plan instead?

MR DU PLESSIS: At Komatiepoort we decided that.

ADV GCABASHE: After you had killed Sizwe Kondile?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: Mr du Plessis, you've seen the documents regarding Roy Otto's leave?

MR DU PLESSIS: It was mentioned to me, yes.

MR JANSEN: Do you want to have a look at those documents? - I want to ask you whether you would like to accept what is written here.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Jansen, we've just heard evidence regarding falsified documents just to put them on the wrong, how do we know that that document is a true document?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] entitled to question him on the document in any case.

MR JANSEN: In any case it will be my submission that from the contents of this document, it is definitely not falsified but I will concede that at the end of the day these are things which would have to be taken into consideration on both accounts.  But please allow me to ask the question.

MR JANSEN: Mr du Plessis, you recognise this as a leave form - application for leave?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR JANSEN: Do you have this document in front of you, it's a computer print-out?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I don't have it.

MR JANSEN: This form says that Roy Otto was transferred to Evander on the 17th of August 1981.  You don't know about this?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I don't know anything about this.

ADV DE JAGER: Do we have a copy of this form?