Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-10

MR KNOETZE: I'll speak to the naughty people Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, short pieces, I intended to read those pieces.  The evidence was given in Afrikaans, the record is now in English.  I take it the witness will understand.  Mr Kloppers on page 248 at the bottom the record says:  Kloppers", it is you who is speaking and it refers to the Road Cafe
"Commander Martin called them to attention and he saluted me.  Our salute is not a normal salute, it is a boere greeting and I told the men that tonight is the real McCoy, we are going to work".  Now it is my instruction that Mr Van der Schyff said that he did not hear you say at that opportunity that tonight is will be the real McCoy.  What is your comment?

MR KLOPPERS: I think he will have a problem then because if I can remember correctly, all the men on that evening confirmed that they do understand what I mean so then he will have to explain why it is possible that he would be the only person who did not hear.

MR KNOETZE: What he will confirm is that you said that work will be done that evening.  Can I then refer you to page  253 of the record.  Approximately in the middle of the page the record says:  "Mr Kloppers:   every vehicle that was pulled over was searched thoroughly by my men and I tried to do most of the questioning because I used to be an Intelligence Officer along with Deon Martin, we did the questioning, namely where do they come from, where are they going and most important, to which political party were they affiliated.  It was important for me to find this target group".  Now regarding these statements of your Mr Van der Schyff will then say that he did not hear any of the occupants of the vehicles that evening that were stopped, except the Honda and the Cressida, were asked what their political affiliation was.  What is your comment on that?

MR KLOPPERS: It could have been like that.  They were supposed to or Mr Van der Schyff himself were supposed to search the vehicles so I do not know if he heard what was said.

MR KNOETZE: He furthermore says that he was aware that they were looking for a target group in order to shoot at this target group.  What is your comment on that?

MR KLOPPERS: At the Road Cafe it was put clearly that it would be the real McCoy, that work would be done.  At that stage I had two shotguns, or I took them from my vehicle because there were not enough weapons.  The one was handed over.  I did not mention this in this matter because I did not think it was important, but I will mention it now.  The shotgun was handed over to Gert Diedericks and Etienne Visser.  Mr Van der Schyff took the shotgun from Mr Diedericks and said:  "You do not know how to shoot this thing and I will show you how to shoot Kaffirs".

MR KNOETZE: He will deny that.

MR KLOPPERS: Okay.

MR KNOETZE: The following aspect is that he will say that the first word that he heard about a plan to shoot was when Etienne Visser, second before the shooting occurred, said to him:  "Prepare yourself, we are going to shoot".

MR KLOPPERS: I do not know, Mr Visser will have to clarify that Mr Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: I do not know if you understand the implication of this.  It means that it was not said beforehand to my client that there will be a shooting, but only seconds before the shooting occurred.

MR KLOPPERS: Mr Chairperson I put it clearly to all applicants that this is the real McCoy, that we are going out to work, that there will be corpses, that the target group is our ANC alliance.  If he did not hear that I can say again that he's got a problem then because the other soldiers, my other soldiers definitely heard what I said.

MR KNOETZE: Can I then refer you to page 258.  From line 7 you gave the following evidence:  "It is what I alone said.  I said that these are ANC people, this is our target group, these are the people who we are going to shoot",  Mrs Van der Walt:  "Very well, proceed".  Mr Kloppers:  "We formed a line where upon I told my second in command to remember that he was the one who had to fire the first shot".  Mrs Van der Walt:  "Who was that?".  Mr Kloppers:  "Deon Martin, he had a pump action shotgun with which he fired the first shot".  Mrs Van der Walt:  "How would the other persons have know when the first shot was fired that they were also supposed to fire?".   Mr Kloppers:  "When we stood in the group I told them clearly when the first shot is fired you must commence shooting".  Now concerning this part of your evidence, Mr Van der Schyff will say that he was not part of this call group where this discussion could possibly have taken place so he did not hear of that.

MR KLOPPERS: In that case I would agree with Mr Van der Schyff that he was not part of the group.

MR KNOETZE: Furthermore he says that he was unaware of the arrangements that Deon Martins would be the sign for the others to also shoot.

MR KLOPPERS: That will be a problem because the instruction would then have been done by Etienne Visser and would then have been incorrect and that was the instruction that was given to all applicants.

MR KNOETZE: If I can then refer you to page 288 of the record, from line 11.  There you say:  "In my mind that Mr Van der Schyff, that he would not follow the order precisely.  The order was that there had to be bodies and our target group was the ANC, SACP alliance persons.  Therefore I had not doubt that he would comply with the order".  Mr Koetze:  "You say that despite the fact that he had to kill people, which according to the law of our country was an offence?".   Mr Kloppers:  "According to the laws of the country it was illegal to kill people, but according to me it was a guerrilla war".  Mr Koetze:  "About what you said at the Roadside Cafe and what you said that the revolution would start that day".  Mr Kloppers:  "That is correct, I made them understand that the revolution was not starting in Randfontein area, but country wide and that us as a group, at Randfontein, we would act in Randfontein area".  Concerning this part of your evidence he will say that he never heard you say that the General wanted to see corpses.

MR KLOPPERS: I made it very clear at the Roadside Cafe that every person that was involved would have the opportunity to oppose this, to turn away, walk away and not execute this instruction.  All I want to say I gave the instruction there and once again it would only have been him who did not hear that.

MR KNOETZE: He will also add that he was unaware of the fact that you were looking for an ANC, SACP target.

MR KLOPPERS: It could be that he said that Mr Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: He will furthermore say that the revolution would start that specific evening.  What is you comment on that?

MR KLOPPERS: Once again I have to say to you Mr Chairperson that it depends on what the other applicants say who must still appear, but so far as I know everybody heard me very clearly who our target group was, that the revolution started that evening and that there will be corpses.