Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR DU PLESSIS: But Mr Chairman, with respect, we are going into the details of those incidents as well now.  My learned friend doesn't know the contents of those applications and if he's going to ask Captain Bokaba about those incidents and how it happened, we'll have to go into the exact detail of how Maake was abducted in Mamelodi, how Makupi was abducted, how Sefola was abducted, how it happened, where they were taken etc.
	What I'm trying to place before the Committee is something that you have heard in evidence before of other applicants and that is that this incident happened in Hammanskraal according to the amnesty 
application of Captain Bokaba and the other incident ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Which incident happened in Hammanskraal, that's my question?

MR DU PLESSIS: The incident, Makupi, Sefola and Maake.  That was the one incident ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The murder.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, the murder, the murder.  The murder happened there.  And then there was the murder of the unknown ANC cadre which you also have heard evidence of Captain van Vuuren and Captain Hechter and that took place in Boputhatswana.

ADV MEMANI: You see the difficulty now is that you're giving a different account of what he's told us ...[intervention}

INTERPRETER: May we ask you for a moment, the applicant cannot hear - maybe it's because of the earphones.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, and furthermore I object against these questions, I don't know what the relevance of the questions are.  I don't know what it has to do with Mr Ngo's application, how does it fit in with Mr Ngo's application - really it escapes me.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand since it's the only reason why it would be relevant is that he hopes to get some information from here about acts which Ngo also gave evidence about, acts which Ngo was also concerned in.  Is that not so Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, acts where Mr Ngo were involved in which he didn't apply for amnesty for, because the acts referred to in the amnesty application of Captain Bokaba according to Mr Ngo, he wasn't present but as far as my learned friend wants to create that impression before the Committee and prejudice his client's case, then he can go ahead.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you told us that these people were arrested in Mamelodi, is that correct?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I said not all of them were arrested in Mamelodi, not all of them were arrested from Mamelodi.

ADV MEMANI: Now, who was arrested in Mamelodi?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I said to you that's Scheepers Marudi and the other person whom I cannot remember and then Maake.  I don't know as well if it's Makupi or - but one of them has been arrested from Witbank.

ADV MEMANI: And these people were associated with activities in Mamelodi?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Do you want me to explain the cases in detail or what?

ADV MEMANI: Look, the ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think the question is,  these people were political activists in Mamelodi engaged in some - in political activities of some
kind in the area of Mamelodi where you worked.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, Scheepers Marudi was an activist in Mamelodi.  I think Makupe and Maake were activists in Mamelodi.

ADV DE JAGER: Was Mr Ngo involved in any of these incidents, the arrest of Maake or Sefola or Makupi or Scheepers Marudi?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I thank you for that question because I was asking myself that question, that if Ngo was working with me, I believe that he could have made an application for amnesty in regard to those acts.

ADV DE JAGER: I'm only asking you whether he was involved, yes or no?  And if we could ...[intervention]

HENDRIK BOKABA: No, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: If we could get straight answers we'll shorten the proceedings in the interest of the whole of South Africa and the taxpayers.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Selahla involved in these ... [intervention]

HENDRIK BOKABA: Selahla.

CHAIRPERSON: Selahla?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: The two of you were both involved.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, the two of us.

ADV MEMANI: Was Loots also involved?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Loots was not present.

ADV MEMANI: Did you get your commands from Loots to do these things?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman with respect, now we're going into all the details of the instructions, we're going into the detail of Brigadier Fikter's instruction and at the end of the day Mr Chairman, I'm concerned that Captain Bokaba is going be prejudiced - I didn't prepare him for the contents of his application, he was not prepared for cross-examination on the contents of his application and if we're going to do that, I'm going to ask ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This surely relates to the credibility of your previous witness?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, but Mr Chairman, we ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: So why can't you cross-examine your next witness if it reflects on the credibility?

MR DU PLESSIS: I don't have a problem with that Mr Chairman, but clearly as you all - as you know, you have had extensive evidence about the order structure and specifically the order of Brigadier Fikter and it's not as simple as the question my learned friend ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The question did not relate to Fikter, it related to Loots as to whether Loots gave orders.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, but Mr Chairman, I think the question went further Mr Chairman, but if my learned could repeat the question perhaps then we could deal with that.

ADV MEMANI: Did you get your orders from Loots?

HENDRIK BOKABA: No, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Who did you get your orders from?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, there we go into the problem because you must remember with Maake, Sefola and Makupi, the evidence was specifically that the whole incident took place under the auspices and the whole general tender of Brigadier Fikter's order.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr du Plessis, it's a question of whether he got orders from somebody.  He can tell us who it was.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me answer it this way Sir, we received instructions from Hechter.  As to whether - where he received instructions from, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you mentioned three incidents, did you get your instructions on each case from Hechter?

HENDRIK BOKABA: We were together with him and we were working with him.  As to where he received the instructions, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: I'm asking you about your instructions, did you get your instructions in each case from Hechter?

HENDRIK BOKABA: We received instructions from Captain Hechter in all
three incidents.

ADV MEMANI: And besides these incidents, are there any other incidents for which you might have to apply for amnesty in respect of which you made a mistake of not applying earlier on?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I object against this question.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the point of the question and are you suggesting there are other matters that he hasn't applied for amnesty for?  If so, on what basis?

ADV MEMANI: On the basis of my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]  should have applied for amnesty on all Ngo's - matters Ngo speaks of, is that what you mean?

ADV MEMANI: That is my point, that there are matters where on my instructions, he should have applied for amnesty and I'm asking him whether he knows of any other incidents for which he should have applied for amnesty.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I made application for amnesty for the three things which I took part in and there are no other incidents which I took part in.

ADV MEMANI: Besides yourself, Selahla and Hechter, who else was involved in these incidents?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Do you mean the three incidents which I'm asking amnesty for?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I beg leave to hand the amnesty application to Captain Bokaba, then he can read to you from the amnesty application exactly who was present in what incident.