Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: A hyena and then the poisoning of his son, Trevor.  Now you remember that the Chairman asked you whether there was any study as to what the beliefs of his workers were, if this is true it would appear that if there was any so-called research, it was research done in relation to the Bishop's people to which he belonged.  Are you able to comment on it?  That there was apparently no research mentioned here about the workers, nor any suggestion that the intimidation was going to be of the workers?

EDWARD WEBB: This was Barnard's testimony, Chairperson, so I cannot comment on that.  It may be the perception he had, I can't comment on that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Leave out the perceptions because you know perception is an easy cop-out when attempts are made to hide the truth.  But do you agree that this version is worthy of the CCB's attention, the eventual killing of Trevor Tutu, the son of Archbishop Desmond Tutu, that was CCB stuff, not the frightening of employees?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now in relation to the last portion of this, that the poison to be used to kill Trevor Tutu was going to be a poison used by witch-doctors, according to the statement.  We have heard evidence that the CCB had access to the making of poisons, poison pills, poison powder, we know that in relation to the Omar matter, doesn't this make sense in relation to the activities of the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: Mr Barnard is here, he will give his evidence.  I say once again, it's his perception.

GEORGE BIZOS: What I am saying is that the version that you say you were told doesn't make sense, but what Mr Barnard says makes complete sense, having regard to what the work of the CCB was.

EDWARD WEBB: I don't agree, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you, or are you aware of any person named Dirk?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Will you bear with me for just one moment please.
	I'm informed that in another document, Mr Barnard indicates that the Dirk was Mr van Zyl and I see Mr Barnard's counsel nodding his head in approval.  Now I'm merely disclosing this for the sake of completeness, because you say you didn't know Mr van Zyl.

EDWARD WEBB: No, I didn't say that, I said I don't know Dirk.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know Mr van Zyl at that time?

EDWARD WEBB: Is this Mr Slang van Zyl?

GEORGE BIZOS: Ja.

EDWARD WEBB: Obviously.

GEORGE BIZOS: You knew him then?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.  Now tell me, did you follow up whether this great idea of the anthropologist that gave you advice, actually worked?  Did the Archbishop stop his activities?  Was he intimidated as intended?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson, it didn't work at all, the gardener found the thing, got rid of it.  Archbishop Tutu was not even informed that such a thing happened.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR LAX: May I just interpose for one second.
	Did you know whether the gardener was even a person of African origin or not?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I didn't know.

MR LAX: But surely the plan had no prospect of success if he wasn't.

EDWARD WEBB: I had been briefed, so I presumed that the study had been done thoroughly and that the person who would get it would have been superstitious.

MR LAX: Well were you told that he was superstitious, or she?

EDWARD WEBB: No, it was said that it was about the superstitions and that it could work.

MR LAX: I mean, you were asked this question earlier but you will seriously concede now with the benefit of hindsight, that that plan had no prospect of success.

EDWARD WEBB: It didn't work at all.

MR LAX: That's not what I put to you, I said it had no prospect of success.  With the benefit of hindsight, looking at it now in the cold light of day, knowing what you know now.

EDWARD WEBB: Based on what I know now it couldn't succeed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it intended to discredit the Archbishop by this act, as Archbishop?

EDWARD WEBB: No, you wouldn't discredit him by doing that.

GEORGE BIZOS: If there was no intention to discredit him, it would rather - if it were to discredit anybody, it would discredit the silly people who went to put it up.  It would be no reflection on the Archbishop's standing.

EDWARD WEBB: No, with this action you couldn't discredit him.

GEORGE BIZOS: And that was not your intention?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please have a look at the bottom of page 199, read it out and go on to the top of page 200 and read it out.

MR LAX: Sorry, which bundle are you referring to, Mr Bizos?

CHAIRPERSON: Bundle B, is it?

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

EDWARD WEBB: 10A
"State political targets of what was to be achieved.
		As mentioned, Archbishop Tutu was identified as a political enemy of the government of the Republic of South Africa and we tried to discredit him and to undermine the prominence he enjoyed during his period ..."
...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Just stop there for one moment please.  Do you agree that in the previous question you said that it was not intended to discredit him.

EDWARD WEBB: You must read this in the right context to ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: No, did you say that you did not intend to discredit him?

EDWARD WEBB: In front of the greater public, yes.  The greater public.

GEORGE BIZOS: That you say is what you meant.

EDWARD WEBB: No, that's what I'm saying here.  This is to place a discredit - it is about is workers.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.  And then he would have been discredited only in relation to his workers?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You're sure about that?

EDWARD WEBB: That's what we tried.

GEORGE BIZOS: That's what the discrediting was about?

EDWARD WEBB: That's what we tried, ja.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just read on and tell me whether you want to stick to it.
GEN WEBB
" And to undermine the prominence enjoyed during his ..."
...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Just stop there for a moment.  Is that contradictory to what you have just said, that you wanted to discredit him because of his prominence?  When you spoke about prominence, did you only - was he only prominent in the eyes of his half a dozen employees?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or throughout the world?

EDWARD WEBB: No, world-wide he was prominent.

GEORGE BIZOS: So you see that's why I asked you to stop there, because I could see that you were going to contradict yourself you see, and you contradicted yourself.  If you were going to discredit him in his prominence, it must have been the world at large.

EDWARD WEBB: That was the ultimate aim.  Let's go through the steps.  Firstly, to discredit him in regard to his employees, that was the aim.  That it would go further that he is bewitched and he couldn't get any further employees and to diminish his support.  So it was a long process.

MR LAX: That's premised on the notion that he only had people who were superstitious working for him.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, or some of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because one would imagine if the intention was to discredit the Archbishop in his prominence world-wide, that there would have been some anonymous phone call links, you know, get somebody from the press to go and see this monkey hanging and the nails in the driveway, just to publicise the incident, because if it was just restricted to the household, if the gardener sees it and even if the Archbishop see it and says "Take it down, through it in the rubbish bin", what's the chances of discrediting him in his prominence world-wide?

EDWARD WEBB: Let me explain the steps, Chairperson.  Firstly, to discredit him with his workers, with the aim that they think he's bewitched, they think that other people do not want to work for him and through that, to try and diminish his support and then ultimately globally when his support has been diminished he would not have the influence he had.  So it's a long process, which did not succeed.