Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I may say that Diepkloof, Orlando, Ficksburg, Eikenhof form the subject matter of amnesty hearings in other provinces.  Lady Grey and Zastron, well, I don't know if this witness is referring to Zastron, because there was certainly two attacks that form the subject matter of these hearings at the Sterkspruit Mayaputi bridge, which is a substantial, well, it's a distance away from this present locality.  So, I don't know if this witness is being getting confused with those matters. There certainly, petrol bombs were used or at least one incident a petrol bomb was used. So, I don't know if he is getting confused with the matters that occurred in the Lady Grey district and those matters which occurred in the Zastron district.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I was trying get that, Mr Chairman, and then it seems if it's not what we are talking about, Mr Prior, it's that it's not one which is subject of the hearing of the Committee, he is talking about the same place, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I will simply place on record that I have consulted with the investigators involved and this is the first time we, I have knowledge, or bear knowledge now, having heard from the applicant, of other attacks at the same locality on the Sterkspruit Lady Grey bridge. Anyway, I will make enquiries Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Prior, have you noted that the, these were said, the applicant has voluntarily disclosed that information anyway. You didn't know about it, we didn't know about it.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I'll have to check its veracity. It may, it is so that he is now coming out with it in reply to a question regarding training, but I will certainly have to check on it to see whether in fact that fact occurred. So, you went to a spot on a number of, well, at least two occasions, three occasions. Now when you went on the 19th of November did your unit not know then that what you were going to attack were in fact vehicles and white people in vehicles?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As a commander, I am the one who has to inform them of what to attack, and what not to attack.

MR PRIOR: But you were going there repeatedly to attack vehicles driven by white people. You had been there on three previous occasions. I beg your pardon, two previous occasions.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Maybe on their mind they thought maybe it's still the process, the continuation of this training.

MR PRIOR: You see, I don't quite understand why you said that when you arrived there, you informed them that they were to attack whites.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: But they had already know that on two previous occasions.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That was the orientation.

MR PRIOR: Alright.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Prior.  I mean your evidence previously was that you had never been to that place yourself.  That was your previous evidence.  Now you are telling us you went there two times before.  Please explain this for us.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Where is it stated, where I say I never been there?

MR LAX: In your testimony to us this afternoon, earliest part of your testimony, you said didn't know that place, you hadn't been there before.  It was your first time to go there.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I arrived at Sterkspruit 1992, around, I think around June or July I'd been in that place since then.  Up to ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Let's leave it, the record will speak for itself, I'm just putting it to you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Now the vehicle, the first vehicle that came along you gave the instruction to attack, to attack.  Is that correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Could you see the, who the occupants were in that vehicle from where you were positioned?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Not properly.

MR PRIOR: What was obscuring your view?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I won't be sure when I saw the car.

MR PRIOR: Where they to far away from you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They were in the curve, the car would be approaching us from the curve.

MR PRIOR: And the, sorry, who was the lookout?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was Kleintjie.

MR PRIOR: Was he on the hard ground, was he on a hill somewhere?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was just next to the road.

MR PRIOR: And where were you people, were you not next to the road?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We were also next to the road, but far away from him, a distance for him.

MR PRIOR: So you were ahead of him?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Or behind, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Can you just estimate the distance for us, how far was he from you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I say around a distance of about, hundred meters.

MR LAX: Same as a soccer ground?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, that would be a hundred meters of ground.

MR PRIOR: So when he waved his hat in the air as you had the pre-arranged signal, you knew that this was now the target?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you surprised to see that Mr Schroeder, I think he was the driver at that stage, he was a coloured man?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I learned that when I arrived Thursday at Goedemoed from one of the wardens there, who was also a coloured person that's what he told me.  All along I didn't know.

MR PRIOR: Well, presumably Kleintjie can tell us, our co-applicant, can tell us what he saw, what you, you acting on his signal.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That's it.

MR PRIOR: You didn't allow that vehicle to came close enough for you to make a positive identification?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That was not part of the plan.

MR PRIOR: If you had seen this was a Coloured man driving the vehicle would you have attacked it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It is difficult to say.

MR PRIOR: Why is it difficult?  Your plan was to attack white people, if you saw a Coloured man there who is clearly not white would you have still shot that vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We have two kinds of Coloureds, so called Coloureds, after all.  We have Coloureds who look like me, we have Coloureds who look like you.

MR PRIOR: Would you kill the Coloureds who look like me?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: If the ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Answer the question.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As the signal was given and it was difficult to notice the person, but he, how differ is he from you?

MR PRIOR: Please answer my question.  Would you shoot a Coloured person that looked like me, that was your words?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: In that incident, as it happened, yes.

MR PRIOR: And someone that looked like you, a Coloured person, would you not shoot that person?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't think so.

MR LAX: Is it not so that it wouldn't have made any difference, if you saw the signal you would have shot anyway, regardless what was in the vehicle, because you would not have had time to decide whether to shoot or not?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We would be in the position to see the occupants, as they would be closer to us, so if they were black people I would be in a position to see them.

MR LAX: So that if Kleintjie had made a mistake, you could still countermand it, is that what you're saying?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that Kleintjie only gave you the signal that a vehicle was approaching?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: And the signal was also for the occupants of the car.

MR LAX: The signal was that if a vehicle with white occupants approach, they would shoot.  That was the signal.

MR PRIOR: So you would not be in a position to see who the occupants were before you shot?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Repeat again.

MR PRIOR: You were not in a position to see who the occupants were before you opened fire.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I wont be in a, I was not in a position.

MR PRIOR: That vehicle came to a stop, is it correct, and the occupants got out.  The female and the driver.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It passed through us as it was speeding.  Then from a distance as we were shooting to it, then it stopped.

MR PRIOR: Alright, you ran up to that vehicle.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you shooting all the time?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, from the car.