Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR MAMOME: I don't know that, I would not say he lied or he told the truth.

ADV MEMANI: Of all the people who testified about this incident, you are the only person who has suggested that the vehicle was used to chase Makubalo.

MR MAMOME: I've said I did not run after him, I was driving a Kombi others pursued him on foot.

ADV MEMANI: And I also put it to you that you are the only person whom Makubalo could recall clearly as having been present on the day.

MR MAMOME: I was the driver, it's obvious that he's sure he saw me in the Kombi and when I stopped, I stopped him in such a way that he will be able to see me.

ADV MEMANI: No, there was also another person, I'm sorry, who was sitting in the front seat.  Those were the two persons that he could recall clearly as having been present when he was arrested.

MR MAMOME: I'll not able to remember well those things happened a long time ago.

ADV DE JAGER: But you arrested him, isn't that so?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: So I think its common cause at least that he was on the scene and that he did the arrest.

MR MAMOME: Its correct Chairperson, but the people I was with in front in the front seat, I'm not able to remember them.

ADV MEMANI: And I put it to you that Mr Motsamai recalls - Mr Makubalo recalls you, not just because you arrested but because you played a dominant role, you were the person who fired a shot at him and you're the person who tripped him and kicked him on his mouth.

MR MAMOME: I said yesterday, I even say to-day that I was not carrying a gun, I arrested Mr Makubalo.  It was not necessary to trip him and to kick him, I just arrested him.

ADV MEMANI: And I also put it to you that you deny having pursued Mr Makubalo on foot because amongst other things you fired shots at him.

MR MAMOME: It is not like that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: And that for the same reason you deny that you carried a gun at all.

MR MAMOME: I did not carry a gun.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: One of the witnesses said all of you were armed, had guns. Would he be mistaken?

MR MAMOME: I think he is mistaken.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it so that you had no differences with Mr Ngo?

MR MAMOME: Yes, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And is it also not correct that you were present on various occasions when he committed certain offences?

MR MAMOME: It's not like that Chairperson, not like that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Is it not correct that you sometimes worked with him?

MR MAMOME: I did not work with Mr Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: Is it not correct that you are the person who conveyed him from the hospital to Mr Venter's home?

MR MAMOME: I don't even know where Mr Venter stayed.

ADV MEMANI: No, let me be precise I was referring to the time when Mr Ngo was injured.

MR MAMOME: I remember that we went to see him in the hospital.   I'm I did not know how he left the hospital and then how he went to Mr Venter.

ADV MEMANI: It surprises me that Mr Ngo would come and lie about that fact because it does not involve any offence or implicate you in any wrongdoing.

MR MAMOME: I want to reply to Mr Memani's question Chairperson.  He is sentenced for twenty five years, he has stayed for seven years and therefore he has created a story which he should bring to the Truth Commission.  I do not know Mr Venter Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: I'm sure you're not suggesting that he is creating a story that he was injured and that after he was injured he was taken to Mr Venter's house?

MR MAMOME: Chairperson I don't know that.

ADV MEMANI: And my instructions are that you used to come there to see him after he was injured and on occasions Mr Venter was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter was visiting him in hospital?

MR MAMOME: No, Mr Mamome was visiting Mr Ngo at at Mr Venter's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MR MAMOME: It is not like that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: And I put it to you that you deny knowing Mr Venter at all because of the knowledge that you did assist Mr Ngo when he killed Mr Venter.

MR MAMOME: I do not know Mr Venter, I have not seen him with my own eyes.  Mr Memani, I don't know that person.

ADV MEMANI: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman I'll be brief.
	Mr Memani, on the 6th of April 198 ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: This is Mr Mamome Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: I beg your pardon.
	On the 6th of April 1986, when this group of 19 were brought to the fountain security branch headquarters, did you interrogate any of the females?

MR MAMOME: No Sir, I did not interrogate women.

MR BRINK: Well perhaps you can help me, there has been evidence that when the female members of that group of 19 were interrogated no policewomen were present.  Do you know of any police regulations which provide for the necessity of policewomen being present when female detainees were being questioned?

MR MAMOME: You'd ask that question to people who interrogated women.  I know that they have testified that I have assaulted them, it is not like that Chairperson.

MR BRINK: No, my question is, are you aware of any police regulations which provide that in the event of female detainees being questioned a policewoman must be present, that is my question.

MR MAMOME: I don't know that Chairperson.  What I know, that when she is searched she should be searched by a policewoman.

MR BRINK: Were any of these females searched to your knowledge?

MR MAMOME: Any person who has been taken to the cells should be searched.

MR BRINK: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

MR VISSER: Mr Mamome, let's clarify what happened the day there when Oupa Makubalo was arrested.  You, together with Mr Motsamai and others arrived in a Kombi in this black suburb is that correct?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You then saw Oupa Makubalo standing with some people, it doesn't matter how many you saw him standing with other people.

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson

MR VISSER: As you were travelling, was he standing on your left or on the right hand side of the road?

MR MAMOME: He was on the right side Si,r of the road.

MR VISSER: You then stopped?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Si.r

MR VISSER: Did you know Oupa Makubalo yourself at that time?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson, I knew him.

MR VISSER: And you stopped because you identified him as Oupa Makubalo?

MR MAMOME: That is correct .

MR VISSER: Now was this near a corner or was it in the middle of a block of of of of houses?

MR MAMOME: It was on the third house before you are - before the corner but it was just near the corner

MR VISSER: Right.  At some stage Oupa Makubalo runs away, that you've told us.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on that, you've told us you called Oupa and he was walking towards you, is that so?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thereafter he was shot at and he then ran away.

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now in which direction did he run, did he run up or down the street in which you your car was travelling or how did he run away?  Where did he go?

MR MAMOME: He jumped a fence to the next street.

MR VISSER: Is that the street running parallel to the one in which you were you were driving the the Kombi?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What did you then do?

MR MAMOME: I went forward, I took the direction where the Kombi was pointing, straight.

MR VISSER: Did you drive the Kombi forward?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you come to the corner?

MR MAMOME: Yes, Chair.

MR VISSER: What What happened then did you carry on did you stop did you ...[End of tape 1A - no follow-on sound]

MR MAMOME: I turned right.

MR VISSER: To the next corner or before that?

MR MAMOME: When I arrived at the next corner then Oupa came and then we met at the corner.

MR VISSER: Did you stop the Kombi?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Sir.

MR VISSER: Did you get out of the Kombi?