Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

MR PIGOU: When you arrived at the Unit, how many people were under this kind of surveillance in Soweto?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: At that stage, during my service, term of duty, we had approximately 70 people that we were listening to.

MR PIGOU: How many people were working inside the information gathering department on the telephone tapping, in terms of listening to the tapes and so forth?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I had a staff of 28 readers, two technical people.

MR PIGOU: Now, your relationship in terms of Security Branch investigations with the information gathering department, were you kept abreast of certain investigations to the extent that you were instructed to look out for certain information with regards to certain people that were under surveillance?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: What happened is that the moment the people came to apply to monitor a telephone, they gave us specific indication as to what had to be listened to and as a result of that, the application was put through to Head Office and the Head Office of Telkom for approval, before the operation could be launched.

MR PIGOU: And who physically organised the tapping or the placing of bugs inside people's telephones, how was that done, who did that kind of work?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairman the investigating officer made an affidavit in which he gave us the reasons why the telephone had to be tapped.  We sent this through to head office and from there it had to go to the head office of the Post Office and then the
functionary approved this service at the Post Office and as soon as this was approved, we started functioning.  The Post Office then phoned us and said that the service would be approved and then we would start with the service.

MR PIGOU: But who actually physically place the bugs in the telephones?  You have referred to a bug being placed in Mrs Mandela's telephone, who actually did that?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: The service is not done from the house, but is done as from the exchange, the telephone exchange.

MR PIGOU: So you had specific contacts in the telephone exchange in Telkom who would do that for the Security branch?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: It was a specific person who had been appointed by the Postmaster-General to provide us with the service.

MR PIGOU: You have indicated that there was a - paragraph 13 of your affidavit - that there was a device that was attached to Mrs Mandela's telephone. Could you tell us who would have been involved in the physical placing of that bug?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairperson, that was done in the same way as - listened to in the same way as the telephone conversation, but what we did, is that they for example, cut the telephone off and the client would complain that the telephone line was dead.  Somebody from the Post Office was sent out to go and fix the line and at that stage the bug would then be inserted into the phone.

MR PIGOU: Do you recall after the burning down of Mrs Mandela's house in Orlando in July 1988, that an operation of the nature that you have just described took place, to place a bug in the telephone of Mrs Mandela's house in Diepkloof?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: We transferred to Diepkloof, her telephones there were also bugged as well as her office at Commercial House in Orlando East, and later also the new house against the kopje in Orlando West.

MR PIGOU: Okay. Just going on to the abduction and kidnapping, assault and murder of Stompie Seipei.  You have indicated that you have some recollections of information that was collected at that time, around discussions, around the abduction of youth from the manse. Who did you pass that information to in terms of the transcripts of, in the investigation unit?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairperson, all information after it had been transcribed, I read through the information, to ensure that the correct version was given and that the use of language was correct.  Then we gave it through to the different units, and at that stage it was passed on to Lieut Watermeyer's unit, because he dealt specifically with the monitoring of the Mandela house.

MR PIGOU: Do you recall, because it was of great national importance at that time, it was all over the newspapers and so forth, whether information was passed over to the security branch, relating to telephone conversations by Mrs Mandela at her house, at the end of December 1988 and the beginning of January 1989?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Do you now mean did Mrs Mandela phone us to give information to us?

MR PIGOU: No, no, Mr Bosman what I am trying to determine is whether from the transcripts of the telephone conversations from the - the conversations that your people were able to listen to, were you able to determine whether Mrs Mandela was in the house at the end of 1988, beginning of 1989, in the crucial days which have become the subject of much debate and much discussion by this Commission, the courts and so forth?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: On those specific days she alleged that she was at Brandfort, but we did pick up her voice and this was all passed on to the Murder and Robbery unit, Soweto.

MR PIGOU: Mr Dempsey, who sat where you are sitting in November and December, told us that the - really the only information of any use that he received, was in relation to Mabotha, and that other information was of no particular use at that time.  Is Mr Dempsey not telling the truth?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I am not - I cannot say that he did not tell the truth, but what I can say, is what is important to me, is perhaps not important to me.

MR PIGOU: Did you receive information relating to the telephone conversation which has been reportedly made by Mr Themba Mabotha to Mrs Mandela from, I believe it was Groblersdal, requesting for money to be cabled to him, so he could get back to Soweto?  Do you recall that particular occasion?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: There were few occasions where we did get calls where Themba's name appeared.

MR PIGOU: Do you know a Sgt Badenhorst who was working in your unit?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: No, I think it was a Capt Badenhorst.

MR PIGOU: And do you remember which section of the Soweto security branch he was working in?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: If I am not mistaken he was also in the investigating team.

MR PIGOU: Mr Bosman, do you recall a conversation that you and I had in, I believe it was the end of October, beginning of November, last year, in connection with the relationship between the Murder and Robbery unit and the security branch?  If I can just refresh your memory, at your offices in the West Rand.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I am not quite sure what it was about, because we spoke quite a great deal about what happened there.

MR PIGOU: Okay, well, let's focus on one specific matter.  The relationship between the Murder and Robbery and security branch. You informed me, and you will correct me if this is not the correct recollection, that Mr Dempsey wasn't particularly popular in the security branch, because he had investigated a case in which a member of the security branch had been sentenced to 10 years imprisonment, for shooting dead a suspect in, I believe, in 1982?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: That's true.

MR PIGOU: Is it possible that information which you passed over to Lieut Watermeyer's unit, was not subsequently passed over to Mr Dempsey during the course of the Stompie Seipei investigation?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: It was policy that all information which was relevant or criminal relevant information, had to be passed through to Murder and Robbery if it appeared.