Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: The statement that you refer to, which to some extent disagrees with your manuscript, is that the statement that was handed in at the Harms Commission by Ms Dibali which she had made more or less at the time of the incident?

ANSWER: It was after I testified in London and the incident wasn't(?) denied at all and then at a later stage one of the advocates appearing for one of the parties, Advocate Paul Pretorius, uncovered these documents from the Botswana police and handed it in, which in fact proved what I told about our entering Botswana was true and in which statement Mrs Dibali confirmed that she recognised Joe Mamasela as one of the guys being present.   I first saw it of course recently when it, when we prepared for this specific case but when I was testifying in April at the Harms Commission, it was as yet not handed in at the Commission as evidence.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman I have a Bundle of documents which emanate from the Harms Commission which relate to the Dibali incident.   My Annexures at this stage go up until F, so this would I imagine be G.   Mr Chairman you would note that there is firstly a, there are some documents which briefly
2a	explain /...
MR JANSEN	27	D J COETZEE
explain to the Harms Commission what was known about the incident at the time and that is followed by certain documents which is a medical examination of Ms Dibali, a registration document of a vehicle and then certain border crossing documentation of the Republic of Botswana and those documents are then followed by the statement, the actual statement of Ms Dibali.   If we could then HAND THIS UP as EXHIBIT G.

CHAIRPERSON: These shall go in as Exhibit G.

MR JANSEN: It comprises some 30 pages Mr Chairman.
MR JANSEN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee did you then return to South Africa that same evening?

ANSWER: We did Mr Chairman, past 12 the next morning of the 27th, it must have been around about if I would guess 12:30, 1 o'clock.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you report on the incident?

ANSWER: I did do my brief, my de-briefing and as I said the full report eventually then came through Zeerust Security Branch, Captain Rudy Kraus and Jan Coetzee of West Rand Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you do your de-briefing to?

ANSWER: To Brigadier Schoon.

CHAIRPERSON: The full report was made to who?

ANSWER: It goes through the branch office, Rudy Kraus at Zeerust, the regional office or branch office at West Rand where Captain Jan Coetzee worked, through the regional office in Krugersdorp and of course Rudy Kraus through his regional office in Potchefstroom would have compiled a report which then eventually went in detail to headquarters after all the facts, the so-called results of the operation
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was known.
MR JANSEN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Did you at the time regard this operation as part and parcel of your work as security police?

ANSWER: I did Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Is it correct to say that the pattern that it followed as far as orders and briefings and branch involvement was concerned that it was the same as in most other across border raids?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Just to repeat again, was the assassination of ANC people in other countries, did you regard that as part of the work of the South African Security Police?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DE WET-MARAIS

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee what information and instructions did you give to Mr Nofomela before entering Botswana.

ANSWER: Can you just repeat that?

<UNKNOWN>: What information and instructions did you give to Mr Nofomela about this mission into Botswana before you went into Botswana?

ANSWER: That he in person, together with Joe Mamasela will accompany me to the back door of the house from where we will then burst into the house and that he should shoot anyone in sight inside the house who would come, we would come upon or that would come onto us.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you tell him what the purpose of the mission was?

ANSWER: Yes I said to eliminate ANC cadres who operated from Botswana, from Botswana soil against the Government of
2a	the /...
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the Republic of South Africa at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you instruct him to comply with your instructions as part of his duties as a policeman?

ANSWER: That's 100% correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: That was also the situation in all incidents where you instructed him to carry out your orders?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you know anything of the abduction of Mr Muhabe Dibali that preceded this raid into Botswana?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman during my time in exile I could not remember it at all, apart from the fact that Captain Koos Vermeulen one afternoon picked up a hitchhiker on the road towards Zeerust which eventually proved to be an ANC cadre.  As a result of that shooting, as a result of that pick-up a shooting ensued a day or two thereafter in this ridge behind the farmhouse where Koos Vermeulen was staying.  The Dibali, that it was this specific Dibali I don't know, did not know anything about it.   There was also allegations about a Dibali being abducted from Soweto by Almond and Joe Mamasela.   I could not remember that in exile after being reminded about it when, amongst my return I just could remember the fact that during an abduction in Soweto Almond's private car - a Mazda - was used and because the registration number was taken by witnesses on the scene and the police eventually got to the registering address where the vehicle was arrested, at his mother's place I think, we then decided to hide the vehicle.   That I only could remember afterwards but I did not tie that specific incident up with the Botswana raid, well even up to now I can't remember ever seeing this Dibali person that was abducted.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE WET-MARAIS

<UNKNOWN>: /...
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: For the sake of clarity, this incident is the applicant seeking amnesty in respect of, I'm looking at the application, page 21 "conspiracy to murder Mrs Joyce Dibali and her husband" and also "attempted murder in respect of Joyce and her husband"?

MR JANSEN: Yes two people, Joyce Dibali and an unknown female person.   There is a name attached to that other female person in the statement of Joyce Dibali, so it is...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is the applicant also seeking amnesty in respect of the attempt on the life of that unknown person?

MR JANSEN: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I see, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee before leaving for Botswana or Gaberone, were you given a description of the targets Joyce Dibali and the husband?

ANSWER: No I was not, for that purpose Joe Mamasela accompanied us because he apparently visited that house whilst infiltrating with the ANC and Joyce and Rola, her husband, was known to him.

<UNKNOWN>: So this woman who was grabbed by Joe Mamasela and shot at close range, would I be correct to state that it was not Joyce Dibali?

ANSWER: I would not be able to say, it proves to be that at this moment after reading Mrs Dibali's statement, yes Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Perhaps I'll put this question to Joe Mamasela if the occasion arises but would you know the reason why he had to kill an innocent woman who was not Joyce Dibali if he knew her?