Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Before calling the next witness, you will recall that we put to Mr Walus that he saw a programme on the 17th of August - three or four days before he gave his evidence in chief in August, and we have the video and we would like to show the portion of the video in which Mr Max du Preez deals with a question which we say influenced Mr Walus to give the evidence that he gave - it's very brief, it's on three quarters of a page.

CHAIRPERSON: If you say it's very brief, then ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: It is - no, we don't want the whole programme, just that bit of advice Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then, let us proceed.
COMMITTEE WATCHES VIDEO
"At this point it seems as if Walus has a better chance of getting amnesty, than Derby-Lewis, even Walus pulled the trigger.  He has a good chance of convincing the Amnesty Committee that he thought he was acting within the mandate of the Conservative Party because he thought ...[indistinct] with Derby-Lewis, represented the Party.
	Derby-Lewis will have no difficulty proving that the Conservative Party sanctioned the assassination and he cannot claim ignorance because he was on the Party's Executive.  The Amnesty Committee has indicated in earlier findings that an amnesty applicant should do more than show a political motive, he has to prove that he acted under orders of a recognised political grouping or  ...[indistinct] but this is just our speculation.  This week, Walus will give evidence.  Join us next Sunday evening ...[indistinct]"

GEORGE BIZOS: I have a transcript Mr Chairman, which we can make a copy of for the ...[indistinct] and hand it to members of the Committee if it is wanted.  We will ask for copies to be made and handed in, I don't - shall we give it an exhibit number Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, it seems that the Committee members are quite content to deal with this matter without the transcript.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I may place on record that I informed Mr du Preez not to give free advice, lest he runs foul of the Bar Counsel or the Attorneys Association.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, we are going to call Mr Jeremy Cronin who has submitted a statement - which is R5, we do not intend that you should read the whole of it but merely to highlight certain matters and deal with some of the matters that have been dealt with by other witnesses.  We call Mr Jeremy Cronin.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cronin, are you prepared to take the oath?

JEREMY CRONIN: I prefer to affirm.

CHAIRPERSON: You refer to affirm?

JEREMY CRONIN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Cronin, you are the Deputy General Secretary of the South African Communist Party?

JEREMY CRONIN: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: For how long have you held that position?

JEREMY CRONIN: Since April 1993.

GEORGE BIZOS: Shortly after the death of Mr Chris Hani?

JEREMY CRONIN: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You signed a statement on the 7th of August 1997, which together with annexures runs to 12 pages and which is part of the record before the Committee, marked R5?

JEREMY CRONIN: That's correct,  yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please tell the Chairman and the members of the Committee, Mr Cronin, when did you first meet Mr Chris Hani?

JEREMY CRONIN: Well, I briefly met Mr Chris Hani in exile in Lusaka in late 1988 but became more closely associated with him after he became the full time General Secretary of the Communist Party.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did he become the General Secretary of the Communist Party?

JEREMY CRONIN: He was elected to that position in December of '91 and from that period onwards he worked full-time out of the South African Communist Party head office in Johannesburg and my office was adjoining his office so we had a close association.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was your position in the Communist Party at that time?

JEREMY CRONIN: At that time I was with the Central Committee and the Political Bureau of the South African Communist Party and those were the senior leadership collectives of the Communist Party.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you work in close association with the late Mr Hani?

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes, from the time of December '92, we worked very closely together.

GEORGE BIZOS: You prepared the statement and you signed it, do you affirm the correctness of the contents of this document?

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes, I do.

GEORGE BIZOS: In view of the numerous documents that were put in by the applicants in relation to the Soviet style communism in East Europe, can you please tell us what Mr Chris Hani's attitude was and indeed that of the Communist Party, in relation to that Soviet style communism?

JEREMY CRONIN: Perhaps, Mr Bizos, the best way or doing that would be to quote directly the words of Mr Hani on this matter and I would refer the Committee to page two of R5, towards the middle of that page.  This would be one of countless examples giving us some sense of what Chris Hani and indeed the Communist Party thought about East European Communism at this period.
"This particular set of quotations comes from a radio show and I remember being with Chris Hani on this particular show, it was a phone in show and members of the public were free to phone in and ask either Chris or myself what our views were on a number of matters.
	One particular caller Steven, said: "I would like to ask Mr Chris Hani if, by calling himself a communist he aligns himself with world communists - communists world-wide and Chris Hani says: "By calling myself a communist, I align myself with the South African Communist Party with it's own history, a history of struggle against apartheid and oppression in this country.  The Communist Party - as far back as the 20's, was the only non-racial formation.
	And then he goes on, he says - he admits that: "It is true that in the past we aligned ourselves with international communism because international communism then, was the only force which came to the assistance of the oppressed people in the world.
	And then he adds a bit later: "Now I admit that there are problems with the International Communist Movement, it's in disarray.  There are serious problems, economic stagnation and only a few countries remain today which call themselves communist.  
	We've analysed those problems, we have criticised the communist movement and we have said that the South African Communist Party's path to socialism is going to be democratic, it believes in multi-partism" ...[indistinct] 
And he means socialism is not going to be prescribed to the people of South Africa.   And I think he goes on and on in this vein and the interview continues in the same gist.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the date of that?

JEREMY CRONIN: It was March 1992.

GEORGE BIZOS: 5th of March 1992.
	This was on a popular radio programme, was this a theme which Mr Hani addressed regularly?

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes, and I think that's implied fairly explicitly on page three.   John Robby who is hosting this particular radio programme says to him - about the fourth line at the top of page three, he says
"Are you fed up answering the same questions - going to the issue of the failure of the Soviet Union and the failure of Soviet Socialism, would you like to move the debate further"? and Hani says: "Well, we certainly are not fed up, I think that the questions are typical and we must accept we are moving from a situation of rabid anti-communism in this country and there's a lot of ignorance about communism, a lot of prejudices"
And he goes on in that vein, saying that:
"Far from being impatient, I think it is very important for us to account for our communism, to be self-critical about our past associations and to reassure the public"
And in this case the callers were White voices, judging from their accents.
"To reassure a broad public and not just one's own constituencies of our agenda"