Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know, but he assured me that he had 
received instructions from head quarters.

ADV FORD: Did you make any investigations as to what precisely 
the order or the instruction, what it covered?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I did not question his instruction.

ADV FORD: Are you suggesting that when you went back to 
Brigadier Gilbert he had already made the decision that these 
persons should be eliminated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I would  say so yes.

ADV FORD: The allegation has been made and you have agreed 
with it, that this matter was extremely serious at that stage.  It was 
of great and critical urgency and importance at that stage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: You have also suggested that there was a period 
during which the post of Mr Mgoduka was being monitored?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Presumably that had taken some time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Over what period of time would that have taken 
place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think it lasted from August, September up till 
November.  It was done continuously.

ADV FORD: Getting to your first suspicion of Mr Mgoduka, was it 
a certainty in your mind that he was now leaking information to the 
ANC or was it merely a suspicion?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: At that stage it was just a suspicion I had, but 
when I identified it, I realised that he was involved.

ADV FORD: All right, can I ask you this.  What precisely was it 
that finally convinced you that Mr Mgoduka had turned, that he was 
conveying information to the ANC?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was the information I obtained from the 
informer that he was recruited by Godji Skenyana.  He was the MK 
Commander in the Eastern Cape and that was my confirmation.

ADV FORD: Now, you have suggested that you have intercepted 
letters, if I understood your evidence, from Mr Mgoduka, addressed 
to these various addresses, the Roma Church, John Smith in London 
and two other addresses you mentioned as well?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: How long had Mr Mgoduka been a member of the 
Security Branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Since 1977.

ADV FORD: Was he actively involved in the activities of the 
Security Branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, he was.

ADV FORD: He was aware of all the different avenues open to the 
Security Branch to keep people under observation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: He was aware that phones were tapped?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He should have known about that.

ADV FORD: He was aware that post was intercepted and was 
read?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV FORD: He was aware that a big bag was opened at the post 
office, if your evidence is correct, where anything addressed to these 
specific addresses were thrown into and referred to the Security 
Branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Presumably Mr Mgoduka having been a member of the 
Security Branch for that long, was not an absolute fool?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, that is correct.

ADV FORD: Are you suggesting that in those circumstances with 
that knowledge, he wrote letters to the Roma Church, he wrote 
letters to John Smith in London?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Where reference was made to funerals and to 
weddings?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, that is what I can remember.

ADV FORD: You don't have any copies of those letters I take it.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, all my reports from the first day on 
regarding this matter, I provided that to Gilbert.  And my post was 
also directed in the same manner, to him.  What he did with that, I 
don't know.

ADV FORD: Would you agree with me Mr Nieuwoudt, that there 
can be no doubt from what you have told this Commission now, that 
Mr Mgoduka would have been aware that letters, these letters he 
addressed, were going to be intercepted by the Security Branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: All letters are not intercepted.  Some of those 
letters would have gone to those addresses, just some were 
intercepted.
	And by using code names and not his own name, all those are 
factors must be taken into consideration.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he use a code name or a foreign name?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, the address to which it was sent made use 
of a code name.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but who signed the letter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was signed by a code name, he didn't write 
Glen Mgoduka, he used a code name.  I identified it on sight, his 
handwriting.

ADV POTGIETER: And you drew an inference that he was using 
the office typewriter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I think he used his own typewriter which 
he had in his office.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: But I also identified some of the letters on 
sight.

ADV POTGIETER: So these are all inferences which you drew?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so.

ADV POTGIETER: You are not a handwriting expert?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so.

ADV POTGIETER: So you wouldn't be able to say whether it was 
Mr Mgoduka's typewriter which had been used to type the letters?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, but I could see that there was a similarity.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes, but you couldn't say as a fact that it had 
been typed on that typewriter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV POTGIETER: But you relied on a hearsay allegation by an 
informer to the effect that Mr Mgoduka had been recruited by the 
ANC?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: That is all you had?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And on the strength of that, you came to the 
conclusion that had been recruited and he was working for the ANC 
and that he should therefore be killed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Mr Chairman, do you wish for me to continue, I see it 
is now quarter past one?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we will adjourn until two o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ford?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: (s.u.o.)

ADV FORD: (cont)  
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nieuwoudt, there is an aspect of 
your application which is not clear to me and I would like you to 
have a look at page 321 of your application, or 321 of the record, 
page 26 of your application.  Do you have it before you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I have.

ADV FORD: And starting at the bottom paragraph 11, "during July 
of 1989 it came to my attention by the personnel and operators, that 
there was a serious security leak in the information network at the 
Security Branch and this leak led to sensitive information being 
exposed.  The exposure of this operation led to the death of a very 
sensitively placed informer and the intelligence capacity of the Unit, 
was detrimentally effected by the loss of this source."
	And then you refer to annexure 15 as well as annexures 8, 9 
and 25.  Now, if we can start with annexure 8.  Annexure 8 is an 
issue of Sishaba, dated May, 1986, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Just a moment please.

ADV FORD: Page 412.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ford, excuse me, where are we now?

ADV FORD: I am sorry Mr Chairman, it is page 412, annexure 8 of 
the application.  Maybe I could put the question to you Mr 
Nieuwoudt, this annexure was presumably referred to for a purpose. 
 Where in that annexure does it refer to the sensitive operation 
which had been exposed?

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to interrupt you a little bit.  I would 
like to appeal to those people who arrive late in the hearings, not to 
make a noise for those who are already listening, please.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Could you please repeat the question.

ADV FORD: The issue of Sishaba you say it is, which is annexure 
8 at page 412, where if at all, does it refer to the sensitive operation 
which was uncovered?