Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: No, that was not my suggestion, it was the suggestion of Moss Motapo.  He informed me as to whether is there a town between Zebediela and Marble Hall which I know, then I explained to him that I know Roedtan.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you - according and I quote the first sentence
"I then said that we will try to rob a cafe in Roedtan."
Did you say that or didn't you, in Court, to your counsel and to the police?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I said so to my legal counsel and in Court and to the police because the police promised me that if I say so, then again if I tell the Magistrate to whom I made my confession to, my sentence would not be the same as my co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  I was under the impression, maybe incorrectly so, that were you not when you attacked the shop at Roedtan, were you not on your way to Alexandra?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: We were on our way to Alexandra, towards Marble Hall.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Alexandra not in Johannesburg?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: It is in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now you said that you went to a shop 15 kilometres from Pietersburg to rob, but that shop was closed and then you went to Roedtan.  Now isn't Roedtan, you must help me because I don't know this part of the world too well, but isn't Roedtan far out of the way to Alexandra and you're now running short of petrol?  Why take a long detour like that towards Marble Hall?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: The route we used, initially we used N1 because it's the national freeway from Johannesburg to Messina, it passes Pietersburg, but when we returned, Moss told me that we should use another route which I know, then I chose Pietersburg/Marble Hall road, where it - and it goes to Johannesburg from Pietersburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, according to your statement page 77 paragraph 22, Mr Pypers' vehicle was stripped and some of the parts were sold, is that correct?  Were taken by Silo's father, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Like the first applicant said, I don't know what happened to that car, but the following morning when we arrived in Johannesburg, I woke up and I went to visit my girlfriend in Soweto overnight, but when we were arrested we said that the car was stripped because we didn't want them to know where we have taken the car to or where we have sold the car to?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So that's also false, that the car was stripped?  You don't know it for a fact?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: No, that is not true.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: What happened to the car, was it stripped or not?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I was the driver and I have a mechanical knowledge, but like I said I went to Soweto to visit my girlfriend.  When I came back I was just told that the car has been sold and they said if we are arrested we should say to the police that the car has been stripped, but from my side, I don't have any knowledge about the car.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: You got money for petrol from some of your friends, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: I do not understand.  When?

CHAIRPERSON: After Roedtan, what happened with your vehicle?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: After we had arrived at Sunshine Cafe and shot people, Zweli and Morapapa went back.  I tried to drive the car for half a kilometre, it can be 500 metres or so and the car stopped, we could not proceed, so we left the car there and took everything that was in the car and we went into the bush.  We stayed in the bush until the following morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why it stopped?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Well I don't know, even today I can't explain, but I know the engine of the car fully.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr van der Heever.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, the young man 14 years of age, it was a child in the cafe, a young boy, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Why didn't you take any money from the shop at Roedtan?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Like I have said, my job was to drive the car.  The people who entered the shop were Zweli and Morapapa.  Those are the people who can explain why they did not take money, because they knew that we did not have money for petrol.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But you had money to buy cigarettes and bread etc., is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Yes, the money that we had, it's not the money that could buy two litres of petrol, because I remember I did not buy a full pack of cigarettes, I bought loose cigarettes and this young man we found in the shop, because I did not have money to buy a box of matches, he gave me some few cents to buy a box of matches in the shop and then I left, so the money that I had could not even buy two litres of petrol.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, are you saying to the Honourable Commission that certain parts of your statement, your statement from page 71 to 78 are true and certain parts are false, certain sections of this statement, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Certain parts, or certain things you've said to your counsel which was placed before the Court during the criminal trial are correct and some are false, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: ;   Does the same apply as far as your counsel is concerned?  You didn't tell your counsel the whole truth, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So - and as far as the engagement party is concerned, you say that's false?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is not true.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Kruger Rands, looking for Kruger Rands?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: It is also not true.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And you also said that in Court, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Yes, that's what I said.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Masil, this incident took place two months before the 1994 election, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: There was already an Interim Constitution in place, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: ;   And there was also - the date of the election had already been announced at that time?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Well I'm not sure whether in February of that year we already knew the date of the elections.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And you said on a question - your counsel put it to the Court on that particular day that you had no political motive because you were promised a more lenient sentence if it wasn't politically motivated, is that correct?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: Yes.  The Murder and Robbery Unit in Pietersburg realised that amongst ourselves I was the only person who was not trained, because these other people also confessed that they were trained, so they wanted me to blame my friends so that it could appear in Court that I was actually forced to participate in all these activities.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you given the opportunity to turn State Witness?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: They promised me that I will be removed from the accused box and put into the State Witness box, that's what they said to me.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And that is why you've made a false statement?

ASHLEY MURPHY MASIL: That is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEEVER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever.  Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Masil?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Masil, when you were in Roedtan, from there how would you proceed to go to Alexandra?