Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have a definite recollection of that, is 
that so?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Under oath ...

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have a definite recollection of that, do 
you?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I have no definite recollection of how I got the gun 
in my hand to give it to Frans Cerqueira.

UNKNOWN: I want to suggest to you another possibility Mr 
Brode, and that is the possibility that Mr Cerqueira could have taken 
the gun, he reacted, he took his gun, he ran outside.  If you look at 
photograph 22, he had run outside, turned right, was in the vicinity 
of the drain you see there and fired a shot or shots with his gun at 
the attackers as they were approaching.  At that same moment or 
more or less at the same moment, you and Frans and the other 
waiter, came out of the Machados, the shots were then also coming 
in your direction, the car was by that stage already passed the door 
of Machados and hence you see those marks on the inside of the 
entrance to Machados, and that is when you took cover and ran back 
inside.

BENJAMIN BRODE: And that is your suggestion?

UNKNOWN: That is what I am suggesting.

BENJAMIN BRODE: That is your suggestion, could I make a suggestion?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

BENJAMIN BRODE: Okay, my suggestion is okay the facts are that I left 
the restaurant first, followed by my colleagues.  And you kept 
stressing the point that I didn't mention anything about Frans and 
one thing and another, I want to try and control myself.
	My suggestion is we heard the shots, Joe was not in the front 
of the restaurant, I am talking about the front area of the restaurant, 
not near the front, just the front area of the restaurant, he was not 
there, he was not there, he was at the back.
	He was at the far end of the restaurant, not in the front end of 
the restaurant.  We heard the shots, I went out.  Right, when I went 
out, I saw guys coming out of the Tavern next door and as they 
were coming out, getting into their cars, they were shooting, but to 
me it was like as if they were just ushered out, you know because 
they were causing disturbance there and they were just told to leave, 
that is the way I saw it.
	Right, they got into the car, the car was moving towards us, 
the lights were still off.  Still shooting, still firing away, blindly, 
then suddenly they fired at us.  I felt a push from the back, you 
know, that is when I turned to run in.  And at no stage, at no stage, 
I will stress at no stage, was Joe Cerqueira outside there with us.  
He was not lying in that gutter, there at that yellow pole in front of 
us.
	My suggestion is there is a possibility that when we turned to 
run back inside, in the confusion there at the door, we running 
inside, no one verbally said Joe, duck, someone is shooting, no one 
said nothing, I can't remember seeing Joe or anything.  In that 
confusion as we were running for our lives, Joe could have come 
through.  That is my opinion.  And to answer, you know, about the 
gun, as I said I don't, I have got no recollection.  I have taken an 
oath and I can't recall giving the gun to Frans.  There is the 
possibility, after what happened I was a total wreck.

UNKNOWN: Mr Brode, did you say you ran inside?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I said I ran inside.

UNKNOWN: Were you not dragged inside by Frans?

BENJAMIN BRODE: There is the possibility of that.  I will tell you why, 
because when I - well I did as Frans said, you know, froze because I 
did not realise that they were actually, physically shooting at us.  
And then at that stage I heard, I felt someone sort of nudge me from 
the back, that could have been you know, when he grabbed me to 
pull me inside.
	But I felt that I made headway inside.  We were all sort of, it 
was almost like in a scrum.

UNKNOWN: I also want to suggest to you Mr Brode, that 
you, when you saw the attackers, they were inside the car and the 
car was coming in your direction.

BENJAMIN BRODE: The first time I saw what I saw, was the car standing 
there and guys, gentlemen, well not gentlemen - there were people 
standing outside, to me it looked as if they were throwing flares.

UNKNOWN: How far outside Machados did you go?  Did you 
go into the road, onto the pavement, near to the drain, where did 
you go?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes, I would say I was standing between, well at an 
angle of between the yellow pole and - well, on that corner there.  
You know, when you come out, to the right of the photo, off the 
step there where that white marks are.  I would say just before that.

UNKNOWN: Tell me, why would you be calling for the late 
Mr Cerqueira's gun when you initially or sorry, let me be fair, so 
that initially you thought that this was a bunch of guys I think you 
called them partygoers or something throwing crackers or 
something?  That is the first time?

BENJAMIN BRODE: That is correct, that is when I was standing out there.

UNKNOWN: So, it was only the second time ... (intervention)

BENJAMIN BRODE: No, no, no, can I interrupt you?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

BENJAMIN BRODE: I did say while I was looking at them, I was under 
the impression they were throwing firecrackers.  When they were on 
top of me and they shot in our direction, and there was smoke and 
you know, parts of the wall here and you know, you are getting all 
this into your eyes, what is it when a bullet sort of splinters up, the 
shrapnel of the bullets, you know, when that was all, they were 
virtually on top of me when I realised wow, you know, here my life 
is in danger.

UNKNOWN: So the first time you saw them was they were 
standing immediately in front of the Tavern, shooting inside?

BENJAMIN BRODE: That was what I thought.

UNKNOWN: Shooting inside the Tavern?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Well, shooting all around you know, it was all 
around.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

BENJAMIN BRODE: It was all around, to me it looked like just you know, 
it is the festive season.  We had a nice busy evening and you know, I 
took it they were partygoers just told you know, okay back off now.

UNKNOWN: And the next time they were inside the car when 
you saw them when you came out?

BENJAMIN BRODE: No.  No, you are not hearing me.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the next time Mr Arendse, what do 
you mean by the next time?  It was still while he was still there on 
the pavement.

BENJAMIN BRODE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: He's explained he stood there, he saw them, the 
car then came towards him.  There was no next time.

UNKNOWN: So you were only outside once?

BENJAMIN BRODE: That is correct.  Wait, okay, what is it that you want 
to know?  You are talking about how many times I went outside 
during, after or before the shooting or what?  What is it?

UNKNOWN: I want to know you saw them the first time, they 
were shooting as you say all over the place?

BENJAMIN BRODE: That is right, that is what brought to my attention.  
The reason why I went outside is because I heard shots, but it 
sounded like a car backfiring or the throwing of crackers.
	And I went outside and I went through the whole scenario 
while I was outside.

UNKNOWN: Because Mr Brode your evidence is summarised 
as follows by the Judge in the criminal case at page 46.  And I will 
read it to you in Afrikaans.  Have you got the translation?  They 
were busy clearing up when he heard something that sounded like a 
car backfiring.  He ran outside and saw three men who looked as if 
they were throwing fire crackers and they got into a car.
	I just want to pause there.  So at that point, according to you 
- the Judge's summary, unless you must tell us that that summary 
was wrong or incorrect, at that point you see them get into the 
vehicle.

BENJAMIN BRODE: At that point yes, but go back two lines or two 
sentences.

UNKNOWN: Well, I will read to you from the beginning.

BENJAMIN BRODE: No, no, I've picked up from the beginning you know, 
going outside, now we are outside.

UNKNOWN: Go back or forward two sentences?

BENJAMIN BRODE: I said back.