Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

MR STEENKAMP: Why was that done, was it done in an attempt to cover up the scene or to move the evidence from the scene, why was that done?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: We were not trying to destroy the evidence, we took them with us.

MR STEENKAMP: But why Sir, why was there a reason to do so?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: We just ended up taking them with us.

MR STEENKAMP: But you can't give an explanation for that?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: No, Sir.

MR STEENKAMP: So then the question I've asked the other applicants, can you explain to the Committee what you understand about the political motive, seen in the context of this incident?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: May you repeat your question Sir?

MR STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me what was the political motive for the killing of both the deceased?  Do you understand the question Sir?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Firstly we wanted to stop crime in our township, we wanted to establish peace in our township.  We wanted everybody to come forward so that we would be able to run the affairs of the ANC Youth League the way it is acceptable, so that we will be able to have anything which we did not have before.

MR STEENKAMP: And by killing both the deceased, that was the way to do it?  Do I understand you correctly?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Politics don't allow us to kill.  We did not want to achieve our political objective by killing, it happened accidentally because of the situation which we were in.

MR STEENKAMP: My last question to you Sir is that clearly, at least that's the way I understand it, at least deceased number 1 was killed while he was totally unarmed, he actually tried to get away from his pursuers who chased him, hunted him down, unarmed him and then killed him.  Is that what happened?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: No.

MR STEENKAMP: Why are you saying: "No", can you explain that to us?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Yes, we chased after them when they were running away.  Whilst I was still at the back I saw them stopping.  After that I saw them start fighting.
	When I arrived there Bafino and Chaba drew knives and started fighting.  I was helping comrade Chaba up to the time we started to stab him and then when he fell on the ground we started kicking him and then we took his knife and left him there because he was injured.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: I may not have taken your evidence down correctly, I'm not too clear whether you were engaged in the attack on the first deceased or on Bafino.  I get the impression that you joined the group that attacked the first deceased and at the same time I find you saying that you were with Bafino when he was attacked.  Which is the position?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: I was fighting with Bafino.  I never got involved with the first deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you armed with a knife?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else was with you in the attack on Bafino?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: It was myself and Hendrik van Rooyen and Tebogo came afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: There was some evidence that Hendrik van Rooyen was engaged in the attack of the first deceased, is that not correct?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: That's not correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  So now you and Hendrik van Rooyen were joined by who?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: You and Hendrik van Rooyen and who was the third person?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: It's Tebogo.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he known by any other name?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: That is the only name we know, Tebogo.

CHAIRPERSON: And how were Tebogo and Hendrik armed?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Hendrik had a knife, I also had a knife and Tebogo had no knife, he just stoned him and kicked him.

MS GCABASHE: The evidence is that Tebogo is late, he passed away, what happened to him?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: I don't know, he died in prison.  Oh, he died whilst we were in prison, I don't know what happened to him.

MS GCABASHE: So he was arrested with you and he died in prison?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: No, he was never arrested.

MS GCABASHE: He wasn't arrested for this particular incident?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: No, he was never arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Tebogo died while they were in prison.

MS GCABASHE: Oh, thank you.
	Then just one other question.  On page 54 in your application, about seven lines from the bottom you say:
"The plan was not successful because the police had hid the criminals as they were their friends"
Now what evidence did you have of this?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: I will try and explain it in this way.  Mostly the crimes that occurred in the community and among the comrades who reported at the police station but the culprits were never arrested, thus convinced me that the policemen befriended these people.

MS GCABASHE: You have no other evidence?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: No, Sir.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you, Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: You went there, all of you were armed when you left Carltonville?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Some were armed, some were not.

ADV DE JAGER: Well the present applicants, your co-applicants here, were they all armed?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: That's correct Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you take arms with you?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: We know the kind of people we are dealing with, they stab and kill, thus we wanted to be able to defend ourselves in case anything forced us to.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  So beforehand you knew that you should expect a fight with them?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: We never thought of that.

ADV DE JAGER: No but that was the reason why you took your weapons with you, because you knew they were gangsters and they would resist, isn't that so?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: We were armed in case they fight back, with the intention to protect ourselves.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  And that's exactly what happened, they indeed fought back.

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Yes, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: So you weren't surprised when they fought back?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Yes, we were not surprised because we know their activities.

ADV DE JAGER: Now how did you plan to re-act on their resistance?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: We were going to defend ourselves in response to their behaviour.

ADV DE JAGER: And if you could manage to overwhelm them after resistance you will bring them back to Carltonville?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Yes, we believed that if they had not drawn the firearm we would have brought them back.

ADV DE JAGER: And the reason why you then didn't bring them back is because the one started drawing the firearm?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: That's correct Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you then come to a decision to kill them because he drew the firearm?

GUSTAFF MATSHOGO MORUPISI: Our intention was not to kill them.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any other?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, there is a sixth applicant here ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, it is not and I wanted to say that I'm not going to be able to deal with him now, although it appears that it should be my responsibility.
	From the evidence that has been brought before your Honourable selves, it has struck me that it would only be proper 
to sum up by calling a witness, Cassius Gordon Mahuma.  I've tried to get this witness and I'm advised that he is at work somewhere.  
	If I will be permitted by this Committee I will ask for an adjournment and that we lead the evidence of just this only witness tomorrow and perhaps give summing up argument.  As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the prospects of him coming?

MR KOOPEDI: Well ...[intervention]