Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

ANDRE RENIER SWART: It could have been.  As I have said, actually you only hear that first shot and you dive away and what happens afterwards, I have said in my statement that I only heard two shots, that is how it sounded to me.

CHAIRPERSON: From the point that you dived into the other room, you didn't notice anything else which was happening there?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I am assuming that you were laying on the floor of the other room?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were on the floor, was it dark in the guard house or not?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, it was.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't hear anything further?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no further talk?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And when it became quiet, you stood up?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, I crawled back, I leopard crawled.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was still dark in the guard house?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, the only thing that was on was the television.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, the television was on?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't switch on the light?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, not immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were crawling from the second room into the original room?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.  The table was at the door which was then the division between the two rooms.  I crawled through underneath the table, in the direction of the door.

CHAIRPERSON: The direction of the door?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct, and that is when I found my pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were moving on the ground?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say it was underneath one of the tables or the table?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, there was only one table in that room.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't see the attackers again or see anything of interest?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: If you were to estimate, how long did you remain on the floor of the second room?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: It couldn't have been very long.  I would estimate approximately 20 seconds, it was a very short span of time.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your awareness, was it that the attackers had fled as quickly as they had arrived?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Initially I didn't really know what was going on.  When I heard the gunshots, my first reaction was to see if there wasn't a way out into the second room, just to get out of that original room, which there wasn't.
	Consequently many things race through your mind, what to do, where to go and when everything had become quiet, that is when I moved back to the first room.

CHAIRPERSON: When you began moving back, there were no longer people in the first room, who were moving around or anything like that?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So therefore the attackers had left?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Within seconds, because you said that you remained on the floor for a number of seconds?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So would one then be able to infer that the attackers left very quickly from the guard house?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't hear any body searching the place?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And also when you arrived outside, you accepted that those people had left the premises completely?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct, I heard a vehicle racing away.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Thank you Mr Swart.  Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Swart, listening to your evidence, these events occurred very quickly?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And shortly before that base had been an Air Force base, is that correct?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And if you were to say that that base was known or familiar, it was familiar to certain people, it wasn't generally familiar because from there you would move away to places of unrest in Pietermaritzburg and so forth, especially during that time?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So it was not generally known?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, it wasn't.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Swart, you sat there peacefully watching TV on that particular evening?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: You have never experienced anything like that before in your life, when your life was so directly threatened?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you and Constable Terreblanche, the deceased, the only two persons on duty that evening?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: We were the only two persons in the room at the gate.  Our Sections consisted at that stage out of six people, of which two would be at the gate, and the rest would be in the OPS room with the radio in the base itself.

MR PRINSLOO: Who was responsible for the protection?  In the Defence Force, there are people who are responsible for protection, who was responsible?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: People in the OPS room, it was also secured with a fence and controlled by the Shift Sergeant who was on duty that evening.

MR PRINSLOO: Naturally you did not know what your position was with regard to the Air Force which had operated there before?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

MR PRINSLOO: According to the first applicant, Mr De Meillon, who performed National Service there, he said that that specific room in which you were, was controlled by guards who were armed with automatic firearms when it was still an Air Force base?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I can't argue that.

MR PRINSLOO: And he also said that he did not know that the position had changed and that the Air Force no longer occupied the base and you said that you occupied the base shortly afterwards, when it became a police premises?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Swart, these events occurred quite a long time ago in 1994, and in the statement which you made then to the police you said that they held the firearms against our heads, and as I understand you now, you are saying that a firearm was held against your head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct, that is what I said.

MR PRINSLOO: And the light switch, you said was next to the door on your left as you would enter the room according to the police sketch plan?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And it appears to me that on the eastern side, there is a window.  If you were to enter the doorway, on the right hand side would be the window?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: The first applicant maintains that he moved passed the window and bent down so that he would not be noticed, is that correct, is that how it was initially?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: It may be so.

MR PRINSLOO: This television, where was it situated in the room?  If you could just bring this into relation with the door?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: If you look at the sketch plan, if you enter the doorway ...

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, I have a sketch plan here, might I show it to him, I don't have copies.  If I could just hand it over, then it might be easier, because then the witness could mark with a red pen where the television was situated on that particular evening.  Thank you Chairperson.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Sorry, should I indicate to you where the television set is?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone was off, but I assume the answer was in the affirmative.

ADV STEENKAMP: We would like to place on record that he placed the television set in the portion of the table with the orientation of the sketch plan, against the eastern wall where the table was standing.

MR PRINSLOO: Where were you sitting in relation to the television set?  Close or a bit further away.  Could I repeat the question Mr Swart, where were you sitting in relation to the door, were you looking at the TV?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I was further away from the door.