Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No, I used to see them at Bisho among the other senior officers that I'm talking about.

MR OBOSE: Were they at any stage restrained from leaving the hall?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I have said that each and every policeman who was present there, it might happen that they were told, it might happen but that was never mentioned, but they just thought that they were being restrained but what was important was that our honourable commissioner should come and find all the policemen there, all the police who belonged to Ciskei region, as they were told to come and listen.  Perhaps they were also among those.

MR OBOSE: So the hall was full, was packed, I would imagine.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, it was packed.

MR OBOSE: Would it have been easy to come in and out of the hall?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: It wouldn't be that easy.  It was very difficult, that hall was fully packed, even outside.

MR OBOSE: So other people were following the proceedings through the windows from the outside?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Now, were the police, junior policemen happy with the continued rule of Brig Gqozo on the whole?  Were the non-commissioned officers on the whole happy with the rule of Brig Gqozo, as you could see things?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No, they were not happy at all and they were not the only people, not the people at lower ranks who were dissatisfied.  Brig Gqozo would even do something like, if he had something that was done by a police fresh from the college, he would demote that policeman.  All the police were not very happy about Gqozo.

MR OBOSE: Now when Adv Jurgens told you that you would be charged for mutiny etc, what was the mood in the house?  What became the mood?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: As he was telling this, Mr Jurgens that is, it was the following morning.  At least they claim it was a bit calm, there were no hooligans or whatever as the people think, it was calm and we had told him that it was a mistake that there was no one at the police stations.  There were people who were there and there was a communication over the radios.  They were also there in the police station.

MR OBOSE: Was there any demand made that Brig Gqozo also attend the meeting in person?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I cannot remember anything about that.  We did not meet him there in that meeting.  The only thing that we were looking forward to, we wanted those police who were being used by him, we wanted to tell them whatever and then they would go to Gqozo and tell him what was happening, but when he heard the news and then he decided to leave his office.

MR OBOSE: What do you mean when you use the word using, pressurise the senior officers, given that context?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: What I'm trying to say is this, the pain that we were enduring because of Brig Gqozo, we had no other way of communicating that pain, the only way - it was very difficult to communicate with him, we would only communicate with the police.

MR OBOSE: Do you know as to maybe - have you since established as to maybe when Brig Gqozo did resign?  I'm asking now, you.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: According to the report that I received on that particular day on the 22nd of March, just before 12 midnight Brig Gqozo had already phoned the Pretoria office and he had told them that he had resigned.

MR OBOSE: Did he cite any reason as far as you could establish?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He said that we had overthrown him as the police.

MR OBOSE: Was this communicated to you, the police, or maybe you heard that from Adv Jurgens?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: What happened was this.  At the time when all this was happening, the people were coming in and out and then early in the morning we heard that Brig Gqozo - when these soldiers were coming they told us that Brig Gqozo had resigned the day before, after he heard the news that we were meeting at the hall.  Most of the people told us about this, the media people told us, the soldiers told us, so as different people.

MR OBOSE: Would you say the police who were there were generally of the opinion that Gqozo had to go and had to go fast or any action that may have been translated to achieve that objective?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, I can say so.

MR OBOSE: Could you elaborate?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: All I can say is this.  As we were saying that we were going to our superiors, he would get access to the police through our seniors and when he hears that our seniors are confused, they don't know what to do if the police in the lower ranks were doing that and then he lost hope, then he decided to leave his position or his office.

MR OBOSE: Thank you, Mr Commissioner, nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Obose.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose is your evidence in chief concluded?

MR OBOSE: Yes, yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Nompozolo have you got any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Mfene, I
understood your evidence to be that on the 22nd of March 1994, there was a meeting called by the commissioner of police in Ciskei.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, the meeting, was it a meeting of a certain rank of policeman, or was it a meeting of all the policemen in the Ciskei?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: It was a meeting for certain ranks in the police force.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What ranks were those?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: It was warrant officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now you have applied for an amnesty, what is it that you have committed?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: A charge of mutiny was placed against me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have applied for amnesty, what is it that you have committed, not what you've been charged with?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: It is because I was part of what was happening at the college.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What is it that you were - I mean, you were lawfully called into a meeting and when you were called into the meeting you duly attended the meeting.  Now what offence have you committed?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I would ask you to allow me to say that a charge was laid against me after I was called to the meeting.  I was sentenced for mutiny.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, if I understand your evidence well, you only applied for amnesty because you have been charged and convicted of mutiny, is that what you're saying?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: There is another fine, something like a civil claim, that is laid against me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So all you're looking for is to be absolved from the civil claim and to have amnesty for the conviction of mutiny?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Another reason is that I would like my movement to be taken as political movement, not criminal offences, rather political offences.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What were the movements?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Because Brig Gqozo is not a leader in Ciskei today, it's because of my movements.  By calling together police and discussing with them, he had to leave his office.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let's get something straight.  You never called any meeting of the police, you were called to the meeting, is that clear?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: You did not get me clearly as I was giving evidence here.  I said sometimes we would meet as police because of things that were happening in our daily lives.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, but you have not disclosed that to the Commission, have you?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: That is the reason that led me to be here before this Commission.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, but that would be an application for amnesty to overthrow the government and that's not your application today.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I listed everything.