Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

MR WILLS: Now how is this within the scope of your duties as a policeman?

J A STEYN: I don't understand the question, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well I'm asking you, you say in your affidavit that at all times you were acting within the course and scope of your employment as a policeman.  I'm asking you how can the hiding of vital information and contrary to the orders of your superiors, be an act within the course and scope of your employment as a police officer?

J A STEYN: Due to the unlawful detention, I believed that at that stage I was doing the right thing.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was not within the course and scope of your duty.  As I understand, you have just agreed that an investigation unit had been established to investigate Vula and the facts surrounding it and you deliberately concealed information from this Investigation Unit.

J A STEYN: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That could not be described as being within the course and scope of your employment as a policeman, to conceal information.

J A STEYN: We did not want them to know that we had these people with us.  We said, continue with the investigation as Headquarters had ordered and show the whole operation.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had made your own decision, you didn't care what Headquarters said, you didn't care what other people said and you say that you decision is enough to say it was in the course and scope of your employment as a police officer?

J A STEYN: That is how I thought at that stage, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: That's how you think about it now too, not just then.

J A STEYN: That's correct.

MR WILLS: In spite of what we're telling you.

J A STEYN: That's correct.

MR WILLS: I mean I'm not for one moment wanting to say you may not have been bona fide in your belief that you were doing the right thing, but what you were doing was clearly not within the course and scope of your employment.  Look, it's quite a legal argument.  It's a matter which counsel will no doubt argue at the end of the matter.  I won't take it any further.
	I want to now concentrate on the instruction that Botha says he received at that meeting on the 13th, this is the meeting where he met with - sorry, my date is wrong, the 12th, the morning of the 12th when he met with Gen van der Merwe who was then the most senior police person in the country and the instruction I refer to was the instruction where he was told that no further arrests must be made prior to the week commencing the 16th, do you recall his evidence in that regard?

J A STEYN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now he interprets that as being an instruction from Gen van der Merwe.

J A STEYN: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Do you also interpret that as being an instruction from Gen van der Merwe?

J A STEYN: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now the evidence is clear that you returned - sorry, I'll withdraw that.  You know at this stage simply from the fact that you first meet Basie Smit and people, I think it was on the Tuesday, they consider this information so important that they hold your stay over to the Wednesday morning when you meet first thing, before business starts, with Gen van der Merwe.

J A STEYN: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So you realised that the information that you had and this whole operation was viewed by your seniors as an extremely important and sensitive operation of the utmost importance.

J A STEYN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: In fact, would you agree that it was probably the most important thing that they had to deal with at that stage?

J A STEYN: It was very important.

MR WILLS: Now you are advised at that meeting by Gen van der Merwe that he has to refer to the matter to the State President.

J A STEYN: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Foreign Affairs.

J A STEYN: Correct.

MR WILLS: Internal and External Embassy officials.

J A STEYN: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And because of that you're given the instruction that you don't arrest before the 16th.

J A STEYN: That was the order.

MR WILLS: This instruction was given, according to Botha, before 7.30 on the morning of the 12th.

J A STEYN: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now we know, according to your evidence, that the first arrests occur at lunchtime on the 13th.

J A STEYN: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now I'm going to put exactly the same question to you that I put to Botha.  I find it absolutely staggering that in the light of the sensitivity of this information, you did not ensure that this instruction was communicated to those under you immediately and I want you to try and convince me as to why you justified your decision not to communicate that right up until more than 24 hours later.

J A STEYN: Chairperson, at that stage we had already had the information of safe-houses that we gave attention to.  At that stage I understood that the people who had already been in place in Durban along with the reconnoitring of certain safe-houses and addresses that we had, had specifically been there to gain more information to get the movement of the suspects to see which vehicles they used and their registration numbers and I also accepted that and it was, according to me, the fact that we had to continue with the observation but do not arrest now.  When one does observation then you do it for as long as it is safe for you and it is going well and in the process you gain certain information.  This was the thought at that stage.

MR WILLS: Sorry.  You see I didn't understand your answer.  You see to my mind, I would have thought that this would have been the least you would have done.  Remember when, I'm not talking here, I'm not cross-examining a sergeant, I'm cross-examining a senior policeman.  You at the time had the rank of General.

J A STEYN: That's correct.

MR WILLS: What I would have thought that at the very least you would have done, is immediately communicated with your men on the ground and said "look, this is the instruction that we have.  I want to know every single movement that occurs, I want to be brief completely about this matter and if there's some sort of reason as to why you can't adhere to van der Merwe's instruction, contact me immediately."  I want to know why you didn't do that.

J A STEYN: Chairperson, personally I did not give this information to the people, the people that were on the scene.  I will explain that when I left here, there were members of the Security Branch in place to do observation of certain houses and safe-houses, of which we had information.  This aim was then not to arrest, not at all, but to see how much information we could gain by means of arresting.

MR WILLS: I know that, you're not understanding me.  I'll try and be more simple.  General, please, if you don't understand my question, ask me to repeat it.  What I'm saying to you is that you get an instruction from a senior policeman not to arrest people and you don't communicate that down the ranks and I find that most odd.  One would expect you to do so.

J A STEYN: Yes, Chairperson, I cannot remember that I had done this and if I had left it for Botha to do and if there had been a misunderstanding between myself and Botha, we were both in Pretoria but I cannot remember that I had done it, due to among others, the reasons that I have just given.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand how the reasons you have just given have anything to do with a general ban on arrests by General van der Merwe.  He didn't say that no arrests are to be made at safe-houses.  You keep on coming back to watching safe-houses.  The question was why did you not tell those below you, or order Col Botha to tell those, "There must be no further arrests made till the 16th of July"?