Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

CHAIRPERSON: You pulled him out of the house or did you ask him to accompany you?

MR NGCOBO: I took him away.  I had a firearm and he had nothing. I told him that he had to come with me. I said he could run away if he wanted to. I think he came along because I had a firearm and he was afraid. I did not drag him.

MR DE KLERK: Where did you go?

MR NGCOBO: We went to Oribi Gorge, where we sat down.  I asked him for the names of all the people who were present when my mother was attacked, and he mentioned the names.  Later, however, I met some of the people he mentioned in prison, and they denied taking part in this attack.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he gave you a list of them, are you saying he had a piece of paper on which the names were written?.

MR NGCOBO: I had a piece of paper and a pen. I was writing the names down as he was mentioning them to me. He gave me a lot of names and I did not know some of the people he mentioned.

MR DE KLERK: What did you do then?

MR NGCOBO: After Dan gave me all the names, I told him that because we were opposing each other politically, he must also feel what the people who he killed felt.

MR DE KLERK: What did you do then?

MR NGCOBO: I took out  a ,32 revolver that I had, and shot him on his head. I then left him there. I got into my car and drove off.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not take him to the police instead of killing him?

MR NGCOBO: I did not think about that. The situation was very bad at that time...

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not talking about the situation.  You knew this man, you knew where he lived, you knew his brother, you go there with a gun in your car, why didn't you take him to the police station?

MR NGCOBO: I did not think about that at that time. I just thought of killing him because we were not belonging to the same party. And this happened after his brother, who was my best friend, had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that there are people in that area that are divided into groups but you're a respectable leader of your people, you arrested a man whom you knew.  You could have taken him to the police and handed him to the police.  Was it because you had been used to killing other people that it didn't matter?

MR NGCOBO: I never thought of killing a person when I grew up, but the way I was feeling at that time made me react on impulse.

CHAIRPERSON: No, there can't be an impulse because you took the trouble in going in your car, you knew where he was, you told his grandfather you are taking him, so that can't be an impulse.  You went there, you knew what you were going to do, so that is not an impulse, it was all planned.

MR NGCOBO: There were many things happening in my life at that time. I had lost my mother, and there was a lot of political differences with other people. When all such things happen in you life, they make you something else.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Ngcobo, in that time did people of the two parties, ANC and IFP people, did it ever happen that they killed each other merely for the fact that the other person was of an opposition party?  Did that ever happen?

MR NGCOBO: There were many things happening at that time.  There were also innocent people who were killed because they were pointed out as belonging to a certain political party.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but you didn't kill this man because he belonged to a political group, you killed him because you thought that he was one of those that killed your mother.  That was the purpose wasn't it?

MR NGCOBO: That is not true.  Even if he had not killed my mother, there was fighting going on there.  He wanted to kill me as much as I also wanted to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you get a feeling that somebody is going to kill you and if you'd get a chance you'd kill them?

MR NGCOBO: At present, no, because I have now seen a lot of things.  That is why I decided to come here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR DE KLERK: After you'd killed Mr Dan Cele, that was the first count of murder in your trial that you were also convicted of.  The second count, you were also convicted on that count, was regarding a matter on the 16th of March 1991, it was near Umthini bus stop iZingolweni and you killed Thulani Dlamini, what happened there?

MR NGCOBO: On that day, I remember that I was with Mhlathi Mbambo.  These boys were waiting for the bus that was bringing ANC members in their area.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you think that they were waiting ...[inaudible] or they were ...[inaudible]

MR NGCOBO: There are spies all over who report what would be happening at a certain place at a certain time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR DE KLERK: So you had information, what did you do?

MR NGCOBO: After getting this message, we approached  these boys in the afternoon.  They did not see us approaching them, only when we were very near.  We took out our firearms and shot at them.  This Dlamini boy was left behind when others ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: You say: "We went and shot", did you shoot Dlamini?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else did you shoot?

MR NGCOBO: Mhlathi Mbambo.  That is how we called him.

MR DE KLERK: Who was with you Mr Ngcobo?

MR NGCOBO: I was with Mhlathi Mbambo.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you kill this person?

MR NGCOBO: This Dlamini boy was from the ANC area. We believed that they were the IFP enemies and that is why I shot him.

MR DE KLERK: So if I understand you correctly, the mere fact that that person was ANC you killed him?

MR NGCOBO: Dlamini was from the ANC area and we regarded him as one of them.  That is why we shot at them.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you went along the road at any time and saw people and you thought they were ANC you would have killed them?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, because I was building my party and they were building theirs.  Things were tough.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about at that time.

MR NGCOBO: At that time, it depended on whether that person is involved in doing bad things or not.  If that was the case I would shoot that person.

CHAIRPERSON: You know in that area, how would you know who was involved in attacks when these things happened so haphazardly?

MR NGCOBO: These people were attacking in groups during the day and night, and they were known.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Ngcobo, do I understand you correct that when you received information that this was a person that may be involved in attacks on you you acted on that information?

MR NGCOBO: No.  We ascertained first whether the story was true or not because people used to label other people just because they hated them.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you ask Mr Dlamini, did you accuse him of having attacked you, before you killed him?

MR NGCOBO: No, I did not ask him.  If I found him alone, I would not have done anything.  But because they were a group, I decided to attack them before they attacked me.

CHAIRPERSON: If you saw a group of three people at a bus stop, how would you know whether they were ANC or whether they belonged to no political party at all?

MR NGCOBO: Many times I would find that these people do not belong to any party.  But youngsters, they were all politically involved and I was not killing old people.  I was trying to crush these heads before they crushed me.

MR DE KLERK: What ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just ask - sorry Mr de Klerk, did you know Mr Dlamini at the time?

MR NGCOBO: I would not lie.  I did not know him.

MR MALAN: Does the name Thokozani Shazi known to you?

MR NGCOBO: Who is that? Is he dead or is he still alive?

MR MALAN: He is one of the persons who fled from the bus stop and was injured, it was alleged in the charge sheet.

MR NGCOBO: No. I did not know him.

MR MALAN: Mr Ngcobo, did you know any of the people at the bus stop?

MR NGCOBO: No.  I did not know them.  The person who knew them was this person who came from the same area.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mbambo charged with you in the Supreme Court in the murder trial?

MR NGCOBO: He never appeared in court.