Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I suggested that he knew about them, that he knew of my involvement with them and that he had indeed recruited Aitchison and as such he knew about the structure and I didn't want to place him in a situation where he would expose us.

MR WESSELS: Didn't you tell them that the organisation should look after Barnard because Barnard could expose the situation and that he didn't have any contact?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Did you tell them that he was still a member of the organisation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well I said that he was in the organisation, I can't recall my precise words, it was something to that effect.

MR WESSELS: But if he was still in the organisation, why wouldn't his handler have seen to his interests?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Because he didn't have any contact with him and I don't think they really knew how to work with money and Brenda's situation regarding her daily existence, and I wanted to create a channel so that they money could be channelled.

MR WESSELS: Very well.  So you wanted to keep Mr Barnard in the situation as far as possible, so that he could still enjoy the benefits of whatever protection would be provided?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I just gave the facts as they were known to me.

MR WESSELS: Yes.  And those facts were to the effect that he was still a member of the organisation and that he didn't have any contact with his handler and that they had to look after him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

MR WESSELS: And it was also to Mr Barnard's advantage in as far as you were concerned, that he remain a member of the organisation, that he be regarded as a member of the organisation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If he could, then yes.

MR WESSELS: Yes of course, and your relationship with him was still very favourable at that stage and you believe that he deserved it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: I want to refer you to your statement after your arrest, in bundle B, page 4.  You state there in the third or the fourth paragraph from the top of the page
"At this stage Ferdi was discharged by his Co-ordinator, Louis."
What is your comment on that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I have already given elaborate commentary on this.

MR WESSELS: Were you mistaken?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: What was the position?  Was he on ice?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I told you I wasn't certain whether he was on ice or whether it was an argument that they had.  I'm prepared to concede that I was aware of an argument which took place, there was some discord.  Let's keep it at that, there was a measure of discord.

MR WESSELS: So there was some discord between two members, but that wouldn't necessary mean that one of them would be automatically discharged or that the one would no longer be a member of the organisation.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: So you stated it in positive that he was discharged but then you realised you were mistaken?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well I have explained why I stated it as such.

MR WESSELS: Two paragraphs later you refer to your own position and you state that you were put on ice.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I don't see it, but if it is like that ...

MR WESSELS: It is in the paragraph
"I reported to Burger what had happened.  He was very angry with me.  He reported the incident to Joe.  I was seriously reprimanded and put on ice."

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: With regard to the Bruce White incident?

MR WESSELS: Yes.  So the term "to be put on ice" was clearly understood by you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Just tell me Mr Botha, in which manner was the statement taken, what was the circumstances?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: More specifically what do you mean?

MR WESSELS: Well you were in the cell.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And then you decided that you would make a statement, because without making a statement you would not be able to find your way out of the cell, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And questions were put to you by the police.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Who were the persons that interrogated you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: W/O Rossouw and Detect-W/O Carter.

MR WESSELS: Did they take you to another room for the deposition of the statement?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The statement was composed in various manners, they gave me the opportunity to make notes, they took a statement, there was a variety of ways in which they composed the statement.

MR WESSELS: And did they put these questions to you over a period and you give your response to them over a period?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I thought about the questions and we discussed them.  It wasn't specifically a question and answer format, it didn't happen on that basis.

MR WESSELS: Did it stretch over a number of days?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes it is possible, this happened 11 years ago, I cannot recall precisely.

MR WESSELS: And after you had given your answers, was it typed up and put in a statement form?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept that that is what happened.

MR WESSELS: And that it was then presented to you and you studied it and signed it as true and correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept that.

MR WESSELS: Did you take an oath?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If I could just ask a question, Mr Wessels.
	You didn't get any written contract of employment or anything like that, did you?

MR WESSELS: Yes Sir, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did that contract state with regard to dismissal?  Can you recall?  Why I'm asking is, if you were called in and Verster or Burger said: "Look, I don't like the look of your face, you're fired", a wrongful dismissal clearly, would you have gone to court?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I didn't have a copy of the contract.  It is possible that certain disciplinary steps were set out which I cannot recall, so I cannot tell you with certainty.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, at this stage you still wanted to protect Mr Barnard in as far as it was possible.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I just wanted to stick to my version of his position.

MR WESSELS: Well you didn't want to bring him into trouble unnecessarily or you didn't want to prejudice him unnecessarily.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I wouldn't have wanted to do that to anybody.

MR WESSELS: You see you continue in this statement and on page 6, in the middle of the page you state
"Before I was put on ice I saw a CV of a person by the name of Roland Aitchison.  I obtained this CV from Ferdi, who had obtained it while he was outside of the organisation."
So once again you refer to the fact that Barnard was out of the organisation.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I hear what you're saying.

MR WESSELS: I find it odd that under the circumstances where you found yourself, you would give a statement to get out of the cell and in this statement you would make remarks which would have the potential effect of depriving Barnard of this organisational protection.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I understand, but then there is a further contradiction with regard to the overtures that I made to my region to relay the message to his region to take care of him.  It is just as contradictory with my statement, that is why I would like to appeal to the fact of my Section 29 detention where I wasn't thinking straight and I may have misinterpreted certain things, that Mr Barnard didn't necessarily tell me that he was out of the organisation, that it was my assumption, that perhaps he thought I could send the CV through to his handler.  I cannot recall the situation.

MR WESSELS: Were you questioned about Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: During my detention?

MR WESSELS: Yes.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And you denied everything?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I did.