Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

JUDGE WILSON: Where from?

MR MASUPA: The street next to Phineas Ndlovu's.

JUDGE WILSON: And was he schooling?

MR MASUPA: No, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: How did you come to know him?

MR MASUPA: I just know him because he was around the township.

JUDGE WILSON: And finally Elias Ratone?

MR MASUPA: I know him Sir.  We live in the same street.

JUDGE WILSON: And was he schooling?

MR MASUPA: Yes, Sir he was at school.

JUDGE WILSON: The same school as Mantha or Hendrik?

MR MASUPA: I do not have knowledge to that extend Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he ever come to your house?

MR MASUPA: Yes, they used to come to my home.

JUDGE WILSON: What to do?

MR MASUPA: My mother sells ice cubes and food for the school children.

JUDGE WILSON: And they come to buy from her?

MR MASUPA: Yes, Sir, they used to come and buy.

JUDGE WILSON: How many more witnesses have you got, Mr Black?

MR BLACK: There are two further witnesses.  Mrs Masupa who was the lady in the kitchen and the owner of the house and if there is time, I would put Hendrik in who can testify to certain events leading up to the incident.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, we commenced late which means that the three of us came into this room late, but I am fully aware of the fact that other people may have been here for some considerable time.  Would they like to take an adjournment at this - a short adjournment at this stage?  If so could they indicate?  I gather that it would be desirable.  We will take a short adjournment and will we please be informed as soon as everybody has been able to attend to what they have to and comes back.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE WILSON: What language?

MRS MASUPA: I will testify in Zulu.

ADV DE JAGER: I noticed that somebody of the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee is present.  We will have no objection is he is assisting them to ...

MR BLACK: I would greatly appreciate that, thank you.

ELINALE MASUPA: (sworn states)

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mrs Masupa, is it correct that on the 2nd of July 1987 you were the owner of house number 12743, Mocke Street, Daveyton and that on the night of the burning down of your house you were the owner, is that correct?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.  ...(tape ends)

MR BLACK: Now, on the night of July 1987, you were at home and in the kitchen at about nine o'clock?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And who else was in the kitchen with you?

MRS MASUPA: I was with my two children, I was the third one, I was with Eunice and Melzinah.

MR BLACK: That is Eunice Shabangu and Melzinah Mbatha?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Could you - while you were in the kitchen, could you just tell the Commission, the Committee what happened?

MRS MASUPA: Whilst I was in the kitchen, I had just made tea, as I was taking the cup and sitting down preparing myself to enjoy my tea, I saw the lights go off and there was a knock at the door.  And when I asked as to who was knocking at that time when it was dark, they said they were comrades and they knocked and actually got into the house without me having said they should come in and I asked them as to who they were, they told me they were comrades.
	I told them to switch on the lights if they were comrades and at this stage they called Mantha's name.

INTERPRETER: Mrs Masupa, could you please take your time because all that you are saying should be written down, even the people that you are mentioning should be written down
and there is an interpretation or a translation that is going on, so could you please speak slowly so as to enable them to keep pace.

MR BLACK: Mrs Masupa, let us just go one step back.  You were inside the kitchen with your children Eunice Shabangu and Melzinah Mbatha, is that correct?

MRS MASUPA: It is true.

MR BLACK: Both of those two children of yours died in the fire?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Right.  While you were busy settling down to have a cup of tea, you saw the lights go off and somebody knocking at the door?

MRS MASUPA: That is true.

MR BLACK: Okay.  They entered, you asked who they were and they said they were comrades?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Okay, what did you then say to them?  Were the lights still off when they came in?   Was it still dark when they came in?

MRS MASUPA: Yes, the lights were off at that stage.

MR BLACK: Okay, right, what happened next?

MRS MASUPA: I said to them they should put on the lights if they were comrades and they called out Mantha's name.  Mantha came whilst it was dark and they switched the light on and they switched it off once more.  That was a quick motion.  And Mantha asked as to what was happening.  And she asked them to switch on the lights so that they could talk
and within a short space of time, I saw some fire, it happened so quickly.

MR BLACK: So did Mantha mention a person's name?  Mrs
Masupa, did Mantha mention somebody's name?

MRS MASUPA: She said Phineas and Vusi.  She called Phineas and Vusi's name out.

MR BLACK: Now you say it all happened very quickly.  Is that correct?

MRS MASUPA: That is true.

MR BLACK: When the lights went off the second time, what happened?

MRS MASUPA: That is when I saw fire breaking out.

MR BLACK: Right, yes, then carry on.  Carry on, what happened then?

MRS MASUPA: Then a fire broke out immediately after the switching on and off of the lights and after Mantha had spoken to them and the house was in flames at that stage.

MR BLACK: Yes, and where did you see the fire start, was it in the kitchen?

MRS MASUPA: Yes, the fire started at the kitchen, just next to where I was sitting.

MR BLACK: Yes?  Then what happened?

MRS MASUPA: When the fire broke out, I jumped out of the chair, my children ran into the bedrooms and after setting the house alight, they ran away and they closed the door behind them, trapping us inside the house and I was fighting and trying to open up the door and I realised that Mantha had fallen on the floor or on the ground.

MR BLACK: Okay, let's just stop there.  Can you remember how many people came into the kitchen?  How many people came in from outside into the kitchen?

MRS MASUPA: Two people.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now you say when the fire started, they ran out of the door, the kitchen door, is that so?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct, yes.

MR BLACK: And they closed the door behind them?

MRS MASUPA: That is correct.  When they went out, they shut the door after them.

MR BLACK: And you said you were struggling to open the door?

MRS MASUPA: I followed them and I held the door so that they couldn't shut it and we struggled for the door.  They were pulling the door trapping me inside and I was pulling it towards me trying to open up, but I ultimately managed to go out.

MR BLACK: So there was actually, there was a person on the other side actually trying to pull that door closed and hold it closed and you were trying to pull it open, there was a struggle?

MRS MASUPA: That is true.

MR BLACK: Right.  You managed to get out the kitchen, then what happened?

MRS MASUPA: As I got outside, I looked back and I saw the flames looming in the house and as I was looking I saw Mantha struggling on the floor and I got into the house, I pulled her out of the house, I was screaming at that time and she was in flames.  I could hear the other children screaming in the house.  I climbed on top of the bed and I peeped through the window and there is another one who came and pushed the window, trying to trap me inside so that I couldn't look out and at that time I was fighting in the flames trying to get out as well as getting the children out.

MR BLACK: And you saw Mantha laying, it was on the kitchen floor was it?  Mantha was on the kitchen floor?

MRS MASUPA: That is true and she was struggling, she was
burning, she was laying on the ground in flames.