Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: You don't personally know what knowledge Chris Mnisi has of the disappearance of Moema.

UNKNOWN: No, no personal knowledge.

MR JANSEN: But you accept that Chris Mnisi may be of assistance either to the Committee or the Commission as to  this incident.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true, and I know during the Harms Commission it was put to me that Mr Isaac Ace Moema only disappeared in February, three months later into 1982, after I have left the farm.  Now to my knowledge that is not true.  It happened during the end of 1981 whilst I was still on the farm and I can only speculate that the same method was used as I used with Peter for him to sign blank informant fees for a few months and that was then the version that was officially put over on enquiries, but as I say, I am speculating.  I know for a fact that it happened during my time, late 1981, just before I left Vlakplaas.

MR JANSEN: In the context of your discussions with Brig Schoon and the Security Police operations at the time, do you have any doubt that Mr Moema was in fact killed?

UNKNOWN: No doubt at all, but that he was killed.

MR JANSEN: Again, as far as the political motive is concerned, did you at the time consider this as being necessary in the course of your work at Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: Yes, to prevent the possible exposure, if in fact Moema would have defected back to the ANC and was a
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plant fro the ANC side.

MR JANSEN: Did you regard him as a security risk at the time?

UNKNOWN: Yes, in fact, I did.  I may just mention that at the Harms Commission, if I can remember correctly, the version that was put to me was that Mr Moema and Captain Koos Vermeulen was on an observation post on the Mozambican border and Vermeulen dozed off and when he woke up Mr Isaac Ace Moema was just not there and he accepted that he has defected back into Mozambique.

JUDGE WILSON: On behalf of who was that put to you?

MR JANSEN: If I remember correctly, Mr Sam Maritz appearing on behalf of the Police in the Harms Commission.  I think documents to that effect was drawn from Mr Moema's file.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps, Mr Chairman, to help the members of the Committee about that, in Evidence Book 3, page 12, there is something to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, these are, as far as I can remember, the findings of the Harms Commission and they deal with that affidavit, but that affidavit is - I know what affidavit is being referred to and I will attempt with  your permission to at least give you the reference in the Harms Commission before time of argument.
	Mr Chairman, I may also mention at this stage, after the Harms Commission evidence and its annexures had been sought by a great many parties all over the country and in different institutions, because nobody had an actual comprehensive record of it, it was finally realised that the entire record that was at one stage under the control of the National Library in Cape Town had in fact during the course
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of last year been placed in the custody of the Truth Commission itself.  So these documents at the moment, or the one comprehensive record thereof is actually in the custody of the Truth Commission in Cape Town. 
	Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions on this incident. 
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Why was this man considered to be a security risk, because he asked questions?

UNKNOWN: He asked a lot of intelligent questions, as far as the operations and people on the farm was concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that not out of curiosity to be better informed about the work he was doing?

UNKNOWN: He was extremely, as I say, he didn't mixed in with the rest of the Askaris in the usual manner.  He was, as I say, nervous, he was not drinking, he was not smoking, he was observing, he was not joining in conversations, whilst with my group and Almond Nofomela - on the specific questions I think Mr Nofomela might throw more light - and then thereafter Captain Koos Vermeulen.

CHAIRPERSON: He must have realised it was dangerous for him to ask questions in the kind of situation in which he found himself unless he was a committed member?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, as I say, his whole - all his actions did not - was abnormal.  He wasn't like the normal Askari coming to Vlakplaas after being debriefed.  He was a highly intelligent man, very reserved, as I say not at all a drinker and a smoker, the ones that you always got on Vlakplaas and you could see he was well-observing.

CHAIRPERSON: Those are among the qualifications that were required for Vlakplaas?  To drink and ...
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UNKNOWN: To give the necessary doubt that this is possible a plant and not a real walkover from the ANC to the South African Security Police.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you are really saying is, he was suspected to be a plant.

UNKNOWN: That's correct, that he was asked to infiltrate Vlakplaas on behalf of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: What happens when there are suspicions of that kind, of an individual whom you have accepted in your ranks?  Is he never questioned about it or tested about it?

UNKNOWN: As I say it was discussed with Brig Schoon and then if questioned it should have been handed over to the people handling that and that was Colonel Jack Buchner and Colonel Trevor Baker who dealt with them before they passed them on to Vlakplaas.  But I would suggest that would have been the right way out, with hindsight.

CHAIRPERSON: When he was debriefed in the first place and brought into Vlakplaas, at that stage they must have discovered that this man is sober, he doesn't smoke, doesn't drink, he is reserved, maybe intelligent.  Those factors must have been noted at that stage?

UNKNOWN: I can't say, Mr Chairman, but I accepted and I accept that the man, if he was a plant, was very well briefed by ANC Intelligence and wouldn't have been easily detectable.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the other hand he may be perfectly innocent.

UNKNOWN: Yes, he could have been perfectly innocent, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You seem to have had some reservations about the fact that he ought to be dealt with ...
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UNKNOWN: In a way, yes, Mr Chairman, and that is why I left it in the hands of Brig Schoon to decide and Captain Vermeulen to deal with it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Coetzee, you seem to suggest that no investigation was done because Brig Schoon did not instruct that such an investigation should be conducted.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairman, he could have said this is the way forward from this point, from this point of suspecting this man to be a plant, that is correct, it was in his hands.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why could you not cause such an investigation to be conducted?  I mean you were able to ask Mr Nofomela to keep an eye on Mr Moema, why couldn't you have caused an investigation to be conducted?

UNKNOWN: That was not my job at all.  I was just on the operational side executing orders, coming from my superior, Brig Schoon, and as long as I reported the matter to him it was for him to decide how forward on from there.  I was a Captain at the time and Brig Schoon a Colonel or a Brigadier.

JUDGE WILSON: Weren't you in charge of Vlakplaas at the time?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I was, Mr Chairman, of the farm itself.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And were you not responsible for the functions of also ensuring that you didn't have security risks that Mr Moema?

UNKNOWN: If I pick up anything in the line of that to report it to my superior, which I did, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What did you mean when you said to Mr Nofomela he must keep an eye on Mr Moema?