Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-25

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: What I thought was that these were the statements of the people that, these were the statements that I asked so that I can give them to the Attorney General, because the Attorney General was looking for these statements urgently.

MR DUKADA: Yes, exactly, exactly.  You needed the Attorney General signed statements, and nothing else.  The Attorney General would have nothing to do with unsigned statements.  Why did you not enquire from Major Booi for him to give you unsigned statements?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I made a mistake there Sir.

MR DUKADA: Are you saying Colonel, it was a mistake in respect of all the four suspects?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I made a mistake about all the statements that Major Booi gave me.

MR DUKADA: Are you also saying Colonel that you made a mistake for not having personally warned all those four suspects?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I got these statements from him, I then took a decision that these were the people that I was looking for.
	I told them to give us their statements.

MR DUKADA: You didn't find it imperative, as part of your duty as the Head of CID, to question Colonel Booi about this unusual procedure?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I didn't see it as something that was that bad, because he told me that those were their statements, the statements that I asked from him.

MR DUKADA: Did you agree, just lastly Colonel, do you agree with me that if these statements had been taken to the Attorney General, unsigned as they are, there would have been no prosecution, definitely?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I thought it that way that they might not be prosecuted because the statements were not signed.

MR DUKADA: And whenever being questioned by Mr Dilizo, you mentioned that you experienced difficulties with the Transkei Police when investigating the matter, is that correct?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: That is correct.

MR DUKADA: Did you approach the Commissioner to complain about the difficulties?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I went to Gen Kawe who was the Head of that Section.  I went to him, asking for these statements.  I asked him to see to it that we get these statements.

MR DUKADA: The question Colonel, I am asking, did you approach the Commissioner to complain that you were receiving no co-operation from the police regarding this matter?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: At that time, he was a Commissioner, he was an acting Commissioner, he was in the office of the Commissioner, when I was talking to him.

MR DUKADA: Did you specifically approach him and complained - did you approach him and specifically complain that you were not receiving co-operation from the police?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I did go to him.  I told him that I was not getting any co-operation.  I asked him to make sure that I do get these statements.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DUKADA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Colonel, among the statements that you had, which you handed to the Attorney General, did you have the statement of Gen Kawe?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: No.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever catch sight of a statement by Gen Kawe in the course of the investigation?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: No, I didn't notice whether the statement was there or not.

MR MAPOMA: In the course of your investigation, did you ever request him to make a statement regarding the incident?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: No, because nothing was said about him.

MR MAPOMA: For inquest purposes, were you also responsible to take statements or taking part in the investigation of this matter?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: No.  I took part only in investigating the case.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.

MR MAPOMA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wessels, have you got any questions?

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, there has been one reference made to my client in this matter, can we take the tea adjournment now, I see it is just on eleven o'clock in order to take instructions in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well, we will take the tea adjournment now and we will, we will come back at quarter past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels, do you have any questions to put?

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do.  Mr Willy, on the occasion when you approached Gen Kawe, you approached him in his capacity as acting Commissioner of Police, is that correct?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And you will confirm that to the best of your knowledge, when he, that is when Gen Kawe was acting as Commissioner of Police, his second in charge would have been in charge of his Section, whilst he was then absent?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: It was supposed to be so.

MR WESSELS: Do you know who was his second in charge at the time?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: It was Gen Damoy.

MR WESSELS: I see.  The Attorney General himself took a decision to charge only two persons for the death of Mr Ndondo, is that within your knowledge?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: According to my knowledge, it all depended upon him.

MR WESSELS: Is it within your knowledge that the Attorney General decided by himself to charge only Dandala and Tshabalala?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: We didn't discuss this, but according to my knowledge, he is the one that is supposed to take that decision.

MR WESSELS: I would like to refer you to a document which is not yet before the Commission, before the Committee, we endeavoured to make photocopies in the course of the adjournment, but unfortunately both the photocopy machine and the fax machine is jammed.  I have three copies available at this stage Mr Chairman.
	I beg - some of my colleagues will have it in their file - but I beg leave to circulate this particular document.  It is a document emanating from the Attorney General's office directed at the Sangoni partnership, which is the Instructing Attorney of Mr Dukada, dealing with his decision in this matter.
	I beg leave to just circulate this.

CHAIRPERSON: What does it say?

MR WESSELS: The essence of this document Mr Chairman is that the Attorney General remarks as follows:  On the basis of the available evidence, I have decided to charge two of the four occupants of the kombi, from which the deceased emerged shortly before he was shot on the 24th of September 1985, with murder in the Supreme Court.  These two persons are (1) Dandala and (2) Tshabalala.
	I believe that they are both attached to the Security Branch of the Transkeian Police.  Then it continues with the preparations which were taken for Dandala to appear and eventually released on warning which was the decision of the Attorney General as he has stated it there.
	There is also further reference to a complaint by the addressee of certain interference to which the Attorney General has responded in this letter.  If the Committee will accept this letter as Exhibit M.

CHAIRPERSON: The letter from the office of the Attorney General dated the 1st of September 1986, will be handed in as Exhibit M.

MR WESSELS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Willy, were you aware of the existence of this letter, did this possibly form part of your B-Clip of the police docket?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I didn't know about it.

MR WESSELS: What is of some importance here, the date of this letter, that is Exhibit M, being the 1st of September 1986, on that date the Attorney General conveyed his decision to the Sangoni partnership and it was only thereafter, which is almost nine months thereafter, when the inquest was eventually held as it is reflected in Exhibit L, being the 17th of June 1987.  Do you confirm that?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I don't know it fully.