Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MS PRETORIUS: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: May it please you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mazibuko, I want to take you to where you described these group of attackers, where they were gathering in the veld between Boipatong and the road that leads to Vanderbijl Park.  In an answer to Mr  Berger's question you said that most of the attackers were in the veld, and I gather that what you meant was that most of the attackers were in the veld before they crossed the road.  Is that what you meant?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is what I said.  I said when we get out of Boipatong, when I left Boipatong there were people who were standing and others who were sitting down.  Others were standing, others were bending, others were sitting down, before we crossed the road.

MR DA SILVA: Now in a question from Mrs Pretorius yesterday you estimated that there were about 200 to 300 attackers, do you recall that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I remember.

MR DA SILVA: Would that be the same amount of people that were gathered in the veld before they crossed the road on the way to KwaMadala?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not say that because when we left Boipatong, there were those who were behind me, there were those who were in front of me, there were those who were already sitting in the veld, when we left Boipatong.

MR DA SILVA: But if you had to make a rough estimate, and I'm now taking you back to your evidence where you say
"Most of the attackers were in the veld."
Do I understand it that it was a large group of about 200 people at least?

MR MAZIBUKO: I said I did not want to commit myself in estimating the number as to who were sitting in the veld or standing in the veld and those who were behind.  I don't want to commit myself on that number.

MR DA SILVA: Now you also testified under cross-examination that some people, some were running but others were not moving that fast.  When the group crossed the road, were they moving in a military unit like an impie, were they running in a fast jog in the military unit, is that what they were doing?

MR MAZIBUKO: What I can explain is that I don't know the method of military movement.  Yes, we were not running fast, the pace was just average but you can say that the person was moving on a faster pace though not faster.

MR DA SILVA: So would you describe this as a fast jog, was everybody jogging in a fast manner back to get to the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: Before we crossed the road we saw the soldiers.  I could observe that they were trying to move faster so that they should avoid arrest by those soldiers whom we saw.  They wanted to be safe.

MR DA SILVA: The point that I'm trying to make, Mr Mazibuko, is that the group that crossed the road, the majority of them were running, I'm not saying running at speed, but in a fast jog across the road, is that how you would describe them?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, they were moving faster.

MR DA SILVA: Now also in regard to a question which Mr Berger put to you, I understood from your evidence yesterday that you described that the two vehicles that were reversing were in the vicinity of the Trek garage and that one vehicle approached you, did I understand your evidence correctly or did all three vehicles approach the group?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I first saw those cars they were on the road between Boipatong and the firms, then they turned to the left to the road towards Vanderbijl Park.  When they turned they reduced their speed.  After Mr Mabote started shooting, two of these cars reversed then the front one did not turn faster.  The driver of the first car did not see that the two vehicles were reversing, therefore he made a U-turn.  That is the time when we crossed the road.

MR DA SILVA: Now what I want to clarify, Mr Mazibuko, is it your evidence that all three vehicles were approximately 30 metres away from you, or is it your evidence that only one of the vehicles was approximately 30 metres away from you and the other two were near the Trek garage?

MR MAZIBUKO: They were following each other, there was no-one who was a little bit closer or a little bit further from the other one.  I'm not able to explain as to whether the other one was 30 metres and the other on was 15 metres or 20 metres.  They were in the same line closer to each other or to one another.

MR DA SILVA: Now Mr Mazibuko, I now dealt with this and it's been dealt with today in regard the amount of vehicles that you saw.  Isn't there a possibility, and I want you to think very carefully about this, after the attack there were many vehicles or there were numerous vehicles that patrolled the vicinity of Boipatong and KwaMadala, aren't you making a mistake when you're saying that you saw three vehicles and that you might have seen three vehicles at a later stage and not at the stage when you crossed the road?  What I'm putting to  you is, aren't you making a mistake that at the stage that you crossed the road, that there was only one vehicle and you might be mistaking that to an incident later that evening?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I saw there were three I don't make a mistake.  That's how I observed the situation.

MR DA SILVA: But Mr Mazibuko, you will agree with me that Mr Bajosi was also part of that group, would you agree with that, Hollie Bajosi?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know him, I know him very well.

MR DA SILVA: Do you agree that he was part of the group returning to KwaMadala?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: In the criminal trial at volume 6, page 577, he describes a single military vehicle, can you explain that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm not able to explain why he's talking about one car because that is what he saw.

MR DA SILVA: But on your description if you have three cars on the road, you can't make a mistake, you either see three cars or you see one car.  Mr Bajosi saw one car, one vehicle.

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm not saying I'm making a mistake and I would not say he's making a mistake, that is how he saw.  If he says he saw one car, there is no way where I can dispute what he is saying.  I listen because it's what he says but I saw three cars.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know Mr Oupa Maloi?  He also testified at the criminal trial.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know him.

MR DA SILVA: He was also part of this group, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: And at volume 12, page 1318 he talks of one military vehicle, he doesn't talk of three vehicles, can you explain how he makes that mistake?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm not able to explain why he made that mistake because even in Court both of them made a mistake.  One said I was having a knopkierrie, the other one said I had a gun, which means they committed two mistakes which are different because I said I saw three cars and both of them saw one car.  So I don't know how to comment on that aspect.

MR DA SILVA: The point that I wish to stress, Mr Mazibuko, is that both Mr Bajosi and Mr Maloi testified that they saw one vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva, I have been somewhat patient.  The witness has repeatedly said he saw three motor vehicles and your instructions are that there was one motor vehicle.  The point has been canvassed thoroughly.  I mean, should we be belabouring this point?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I'm not going to take the matter any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: In regard to this group of persons crossing the road, my information is that it took approximately two minutes to cross the road, can you give any comment in that regard?  For the group to cross from the one side of the road to the other, can you give any comment in that regard?

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to be clear on the question. It took approximately two minutes for the whole group or it normally take two minutes for a person to cross?

MR DA SILVA: It took two minutes for the whole group, Mr Chairman.