Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR BERGER: Nobody went running and hiding in the marsh or the veld outside kwaMadala, you all entered through the main gate?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we all went through the main gate.

MR BERGER: How is it that you only became aware that property was looted from Boipatong, the following morning?
	Remember you said you only became aware the following morning?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.  I just heard rumours that some things had been looted from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: But you were the Commander of these men, surely you remained behind until all your men had got into the hostel, so that you could be satisfied that they had safely returned to base, isn't that what you did as a Commander?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I should have, but it did not happen because we all went through the gate at the same time.

MR BERGER: And you went from the gate, you went to the stadium, you went back to the stadium, didn't you?

MR MKHIZE: No, that is not so.  We went to our rooms.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you said to the police, page 5.  When we were finished with the attack, the whole group returned to the hostel.  We again went or assembled at the stadium, and Situndwa told us to hide our weapons away.

MR MKHIZE: I do not know anything about this statement.

MR BERGER: Well, it is your statement.  Is there any reason why you would have lied about re-assembling at the stadium if you didn't re-assemble at the stadium?  There would be no reason to tell such a lie, would there be?

MR MKHIZE: I did mention before that a lot of what was said or a lot of statements that were made to the police, were under duress because we were being assaulted at the time.
	There was no person who could have given me an instruction because the only single person who was the Prince, was away.

MR BERGER: We know that large items were looted from Boipatong.  We know that there was a grandfather clock, there were TV sets, there were quantities of meat stolen from freezers, there was a lot of heavy stuff looted from Boipatong, big stuff.
	Are you saying that you were unaware of anyone carrying such heavy stuff back to the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: I said it a long while ago, that I was not aware of any property being looted when we returned to the hostel.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that he himself, took a TV set and money, he put the TV into a caspir and he says that there were other TV's, hi-fi's, blankets in the caspir when he put his in.  He says that all of this looted property was transported back to the hostel in the caspirs.

MR MKHIZE: I would like you to disregard what Nosenga is saying, because even the fact that there were police present there, is a mistake, that is not true.

MR BERGER: By the way, whilst we are on the question of mistakes, in your statement on page 77, you talk about white bands, two thirds of the way down, white bands being handed out to wear as head bands before the attack.  Would that also be a mistake?

MR MKHIZE: I did not say it was a mistake.  I said there were those head bands.

MR BERGER: You specifically said there were no white head bands, didn't you or am I wrong?

MR MKHIZE: I said I did not remember clearly whether it was red or white head bands that were used.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that after you returned to the hostel, you all washed using a certain muti which was provided for by Chief Mtwana Zulu.  You were all happy and chanting and singing.

MR MKHIZE: That is not true.

MR BERGER: So when you got back to the hostel, there was no celebration that you had finally destroyed the enemy in Boipatong, you all just went back to your own rooms, there was no ...

MR MKHIZE: We just went back to our rooms.

MR BERGER: There was no discussion at all about the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No.  There was no discussion because it was late at night.

MR BERGER: What did you do with your weapons?

MR MKHIZE: We stored our weapons.

MR BERGER: The next day, the 18th, is it correct that Themba Khoza came to the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember quite clearly, but I think he did arrive at the hostel, that was the day when he actually pleaded with us to cooperate with the police.

MR BERGER: You were asked this question, question 22 on page 68, did Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu visit kwaMadala after the attack and your answer, page 74, paragraph 22, is yes.
	So you admit that Themba Khoza and Humphrey Ndlovu did come to the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I remember.

MR BERGER: That was the following day, that was when Themba Khoza said you must cooperate with the police?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think it was on the following day.  If not that day, it could have been the 19th, but I think it was on the following day of the attack.

MR BERGER: Then you were asked in paragraph 22.1, page 68, to give particulars of the nature of this visit and your answer was that they, that is Themba Khoza and Humphrey Ndlovu just wanted to find out what had happened.  We denied all allegations.

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you say that that is correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You denied the allegations because you knew that the attack was not IFP policy, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you were asked did Mr Khoza warn hostel dwellers at a meeting that they should burn all the evidence that linked the attackers to the massacre, including goods stolen from the hostel, and clothes stained with blood, and that should read including goods stolen from Boipatong and clothes stained with blood, and your answer was no.
	Mr Themba Khoza did not instruct that the evidence should be burnt.  Is that still your answer?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You know that Mr Victor Mthembu contradicts you.  He says Themba Khoza did come, Themba Khoza did instruct that the evidence should be burnt.  Why should he say such a thing if it is not true?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know.  I did not hear Mr Khoza saying that.

MR BERGER: He is not alone on this, because - I am sorry, I am just trying to find out who it is - no, I am incorrect, what Mr Nosenga says is that the following day, paragraph 25, Themba Khoza came to collect the weapons.
	He says we were told that other policemen, not the policemen from Vereeniging, would come and search for weapons.  Khoza was very happy and praised the people at a rally that was held at the hostel the same day.  Your comment please?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know anything about that.

MR BERGER: You do know of course, that a decision was taken to burn the evidence from Boipatong or do you not?

MR MKHIZE: I already told you that I do not have any knowledge thereof.

MR BERGER: Do you know that a decision was taken to burn the evidence from Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know what else to tell you now, because you are asking me this question for the fourth or fifth time, and I have already told you I did not know that there was property that was looted from Boipatong.
	When I heard of it, I could not find the said property.

MR BERGER: Do you know that that property was burnt?

MR MKHIZE: No.  I think I should not respond to your question any more.

MR BERGER: All right Mr Mkhize, I was giving you an opportunity to be clear, because at page 78 of your statement, you say the following - I learnt ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Which statement is that?

MR BERGER: Page 78, it is a statement attached to his amnesty application, middle of the page, I learnt first the following day, I heard first the following day that many people had been killed.  Then you say some of the residents had brought to the hostel, goods which had been in the houses of Boipatong.  Then you say, it was decided to burn the evidence.  That is why I was asking you that question so many times, Mr Mkhize.
	Perhaps now you know about the decision to burn the evidence?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember any such decision.

MR BERGER: Why is it in your statement then?