Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

LALOO CHIBA: The person, he was a member of the second national high command, his name is Lionel Gay.  I think it was in a moment of weakness that he turned State witness. We had directed many a campaign while we were together as colleagues on the second national high command.  It is unfortunate that he did so.  Had he not given State evidence, had he not turned State witness, it is possible that the five of us who were subsequently found guilty and sentenced, might not have been found guilty.  Actually we were found guilty and collectively, between the five of us, we served between 85 and 90 years in prison.
 I want to say this, however, that after the unbanning of the African National Congress in February 1990, he did return to South Africa for a brief spell.  He requested that I should meet him, which I did.  He asked my forgiveness. He said he had made a serious mistake. He asked my forgiveness and I had no hesitation whatsoever in forgiving him.  That's what I would like to say.

YASMINE SOOKA: It is also important for the Commission to document the kind of torture that took place. It is very important for our records.  Particularly in the different periods during our history, because there was a definite
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change after a certain period.  But you talk about the Stockholm Syndrome, and I would be grateful if you could just deal with that briefly.

LALOO CHIBA: What actually happens is that there are normally two kinds of, two categories of police.  The one who appeared to be soft and kind.  They offer during interrogation they offer you sweets, they offer you comfort, cooldrinks, they offer you snacks, they are soft-spoken and so on.  The other category of policemen who interrogate one are the rough, aggressive types, they are the threatening type.  They are the types of people who do not hesitate to lay a finger on you, unlike the first category.
 Now they alternate. When they interrogate you they alternate.  They bring the so-called softer ones and then afterwards they bring in the second category of interrogators.  
 Now during this process the person who is actually interrogated find some sort of an affinity, a sense of protection, a sense of comfort with the softer ones. It is in this period that the people break down and give information.  I think this is called, I am not too sure, I think it is called the Stockholm Syndrome.  When I was questioned the second time, this is what actually happened.  And amongst the aggressive type was a person called Lieut Victor - I believe he is now a general.  His name is Victor, at that stage.  Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: One of the tasks of the Commission is also to look at the differing roles, that people like magistrates and district surgeons played in the whole system.  You mention that the first time when you were charged with sabotage, one of the complaints that was raised at your
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trial, was the way you were treated and tortured while you were in custody.  Could you tell us about whether the district surgeon examined you, whether any attempt was made to make sure that the police did not do that again.  What was the intervention that the magistrate made once he know of the facts?

LALOO CHIBA: When we appeared in court, the matter was brought to the attention of the magistrate.  I can't, I must honestly say that I can't actually recall the magistrate doing anything about it.  As far as the doctors are concerned, after - immediately after our rest, there is a 48 hour period, during which one is held in communicado, and it was during this period that we are actually tortured, so that the information comes out.  But once that period is over, you are in contact with your lawyers, your friends, your family and so on, so they can't actually do anything about it.  But our doctors then examined us.  We were also examined by the district surgeon. In my particular case what they did find was that my left ear had been punctured. I was bleeding and there were burn marks on my toes, my fingers and on my knuckles, burn marks as a result of the electric shocks.
 One other thing I omitted to mention to you was that while they were turning the dynamo and the electric shocks were passing through my body very violently, they actually also poured water on the wires. Once you pour water - water I think, is a very good conductor of electricity, and once you pour water the intensity of the electric shocks increase dramatically. I think that's what you wanted to know.  Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Just one more question.  You say that during the
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twilight period, 1986 to 1987, you went ...

LALOO CHIBA: Ja, please continue, before I come in.

YASMINE SOOKA: Okay.  During that period you again went underground.  Will you just tell us very briefly what you did during that period?

LALOO CHIBA: The twilight period I am referring to, is the twilight period of three months between the first state of emergency - I am not talking about 1960 now, there was another state of emergency, I am talking about 1985 emergency and the 1986 emergency. We were requested by the leadership of the UDF to go underground, not to get caught and do whatever activities, promote the aims and objectives of the United Democratic Front.  At that stage I was not, and I must stress this, I was not involved in any type of sabotage activities.  It was the normal legal type of work.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much.  Yes?

LALOO CHIBA: I would like to be afforded the opportunity of saying one or two things, all right?

YASMINE SOOKA: I am actually going to get to that.

LALOO CHIBA: Okay, fine.

YASMINE SOOKA: Part of of our function of course, is to recommend to Government, interventions which can be made at institutional levels or recommendations generally around the question of preventing human rights violations taking place again. If you could, while you discuss the points you want to make, if you could allude briefly to any such recommendation you yourself would like to make in that regard.