Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR GOBEDI: Is it also correct that the reason why you have not alluded to the other facts, is that you most probably  do not have a personal knowledge of the other matters, as you state in your submission?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR GOBEDI: I would ask you to read to the Commission what is said, what you say on paragraph 5 of your submission.

ALBERTINA SISULU: With regard to item (d), the murder of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat, I wish to state the following.  On the day of the murder, the date which I am not sure about, which could be the 27th of January 1987, I ... (intervention)

MR GOBEDI: Excuse me, you in fact intend that to be 1989?

ALBERTINA SISULU: 1989.

MR GOBEDI: That is correct, please go on.

ALBERTINA SISULU: I was at the surgery, carrying on with my duties which included admitting patients and writing out their details on the cards.  Some time in the mid-morning it could be at about 11h00, two young men came in and one of them wished to see the Doctor.  As the Doctor had not yet arrived, I wrote out a card, took out a urine sample from the one who wanted to see the Doctor, with him.
 It was a standard procedure that we took finger prints of male patients.  I took the finger prints of this patient.  May I mention at this stage, that I do not recall the name of the men.  When the Doctor finally arrived, some time during the mid-day, started attending to the patients in the order in which the cards were placed, which was the normal first come, first serve.
 When the young man's turn came for him to see the Doctor, he was not in the queue and upon enquiry, the other patients told me that he had gone with his friend to buy cigarettes.  At about 16h00, all the patients had been attended to.  However, there were two women that the Doctor had referred to Baragwanath hospital who were still in the surgery, waiting for an ambulance to come and fetch them.  
 I was at this time busy in the dispensary, which was situated at the back of the building.  It is at this stage when the two young men came to me in the dispensary, still wishing to see the Doctor.  When I asked them where they were, they said they had gone to buy cigarettes.
 I then went to the front portion of the building towards reception and the Doctor's examining room, and the two young men accompanied me.  When I knocked on the Doctor's door, to advise him of the patient's presence, they took seats at reception.
 The Doctor told me he would see them and I left them in the reception and went to the dispensary at the back.  I heard the Doctor's voice calling the patient by name and heard the examining room's door click as this was a security door which could only be unlocked by pressing a button from inside.
 I do not know what happened there, but as there was silence after the click, I assumed the Doctor was busy with the patient.   After about ten minutes, I heard a bang that sounded like a gun shot.  I shouted "Abu", I thought perhaps he might be doing something.  There was no response.
 Then I heard a second shot follow - bang, similar to the first one.  This time there was also a scream by Dr Asvat.  I recognised his voice, I then ran through the back door, which was the near door to the outside.
 I screamed for help and people came running from practically all directions.  Others jumped the fences into the yard of the surgery.  When I went to the front side of the building, of the surgery, the ambulance which had come for the two patients who were still in the surgery, was arriving.  I also spotted the two young men running out of the yard, wielding something like a firearm.  The ambulance people saw the drama and chased the fleeing young men.
 I then went into the surgery, through the front door and the Doctor's examining room's door was open and when I went inside the door, Doctor inside.  When I went inside, the Doctor was lying face down and bleeding from the left side of his chest.
 Shortly thereafter the police arrived and the ambulance people returned and advised that the young men disappeared into the park which was near by.
 The ambulance personnel then took the patients to the hospital.  Dr Asvat at this stage was no more alive.  I phoned the Doctor's brother who then came to the surgery where the body was still lying.  The body was removed in the early evening of that afternoon, to the mortuary.
 Two days thereafter the police fetched me from home, they wanted keys to the surgery and asked me questions.  I went together with the police to the surgery and then to the police station where I together with the ambulance personnel, assisted the police with the drawing of the identikits.
 Some days later, I was called to an identity parade at the Maroga police station and I identified the young men I admitted.  Although I was the President of the UDF at the material time, I was for most of the time in prison, under house arrest and could not participate in the activities of the mass democratic movement at the Mandela Crisis Committee.
 I however, wish to state that all matters you have raised with the exception of matter (d), were never discussed in my presence by the mass democratic movement or any of the structures.

MR GOBEDI: Mrs Sisulu, what do you in fact mean in your last statement is that you were never present at any formal meeting of the MDM, where these matters were discussed, is that correct?

ALBERTINA SISULU: That is correct.

MR GOBEDI: Thank you, now there is something which I believe is very critical for this Commission, which is that on the date of the murder of the late Dr Asvat, did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela together with Katiza Cebekhulu, come to the surgery to your recollection?

ALBERTINA SISULU: They were never there.

MR GOBEDI: And you are certain that they were never there?

ALBERTINA SISULU: They were never there.

MR GOBEDI: This will also explain why you are not in a position to tell this Commission or anyone anything in connection with what has been termed a volcanic row that erupted between Mrs Mandela and Dr Asvat on that day?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I wasn't there.

MR GOBEDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR GOBEDI: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Hanif?

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop.  Mrs Sisulu, you had a very close relationship to Dr Asvat, could you indicate the nature of your relationship?  Was it a Doctor/nurse relationship, was it beyond that, could you just briefly tell us what your relationship was?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Actually Dr Asvat took me to be his mother.  Our clinic was a clinic of a mother and the son.

MR VALLY: Should I carry on?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: Mrs Sisulu, I have given you a chronology of events leading to the assassination of Dr Asvat.  Now, if you look under the 29th of December 1988 and the last sentence, you can read it if you are not certain, but I can ask you questions and you can talk to it from memory.  Here is a copy of a medical record that you, which I am handing to you right now, do you recognise your handwriting there on?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I could not write the medicines?

MR VALLY: No, I am talking about the patient details, don't worry about the treatment prescribed.

ALBERTINA SISULU: I don't remember this writing, I don't print when I write.

MR VALLY: Right, Dr Asvat, when he spoke to us, Dr Ebrahim Asvat, earlier today and I will read what he said in his statement, Dr Asvat's nursing sister and assistant, Mrs Albertina Sisulu was present when Cebekhulu was brought to the surgery.  Do you remember when Katiza Cebekhulu came to the surgery with Ms Xoliswa Falati?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I have never seen those two that day.

MR VALLY: Do you remember, let us just ask you the procedure, if someone comes to the surgery for the first time, what would you do as a patient, what would you do Mrs Sisulu?

ALBERTINA SISULU: My first work at work was to admit the patient.  Right his name and surname, house number, all the particulars on the card.