Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I heard from that morning, I suspected because as Paul Schneider woken me up the people who came in like Mr Khanyile and the others who were coming in the usual way but they did not want me to easily notice that they had done something.  I started suspecting from then.

MR BERGER: And by the 18th you knew that the Kwamadala residents were responsible for the attack?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And when you gave evidence in the criminal trial you said that the Kwamadala residents were not responsible for the attack, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Because if they had been responsible for the attack you would have known?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So you deliberately misled the trial court on that point am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: You misled the trial court to protect your co-accused, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: Or what would you call it if not misleading the trial court?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I gave the court all I knew even today I still maintain that.  The attackers who are the people who said something else it was dark, I did not know what was happening.  Remember Mr Berger that I was among the people who were in the hit list, people who were to be killed.  I think there was information that leaked, some information that leaked in that process.

MR BERGER: Did you tell the trial court that by the 18th June 1992 you were aware that the Kwamadala residents had attacked Boipatong?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: At that time I did not have knowledge but I later got to know and as I'm looking at the facts now it appears and after hearing Mr Khanyile's evidence, he was one of the people who got through the gate on the 17th on the night.  I could not point a finger at him.

MR BERGER: Let's go to the 18th June.  You say that Themba Khosa came on the 19th not the 18th?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I said so, I said what I can still remember well and what we did with Mr Themba Khosa it was on the 19th, I know very well what he did on that particular day.  I do not dispute the fact that he was not there on the 18th, everything was still new to me.  They were asking everything, they were asking me some questions, I cannot dispute that fact.

MR BERGER: Could it be that you are mistaken and let me tell you why.  Mr Mkwanazi for example gave evidence just before you and he confirmed that Mr Themba Khosa was present on the 18th with Humphrey Nglovo.  Mr Themba Khosa himself on a radio interview last week confirmed that within hours of the news of the attack on the 18th he was at Kwamadala Hostel on the 18th.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I agree that I have made a mistake if that's the case.

MR BERGER: Now on the 18th when Themba Khosa came, Humphrey Nglovo came, you say that Ms Anina van der Westhuizen was also there?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is why I can talk about the 18th, I beg your pardon on the 19th, I can make a mistake about the 18th.  Let us not talk about the dates, the 18th, but I remember very well on the 19th, I remember very well what happened on the 19th.

MR BERGER: Were you not at the meeting on the 18th when Themba Khosa was there?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I can't remember.

MR BERGER: At that meeting where Themba Khosa was and Humphrey Nglovo, you say that you never heard Themba Khosa say that all the goods must be burned, all the evidence must be burned?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I said that as I've already told that I apologise for what happened on the 18th.

MR BERGER: No, no, you don't have to apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you cannot recall what took place on the 18th?

MR BERGER: No I cannot remember what took place on the 18th.

CHAIRPERSON: You see because the evidence has been that another meeting was called, all the men went to the stadium, this is now the day after the attack, you don't remember that?

MR BERGER: I remember but all the things that happened on the 18th were new on my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you on duty on the 18th June?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At the gate?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to the stadium when the meeting was called?

MR BERGER: I went there it was in the morning, I went there to address but there was not a stadium, it's just an arena.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were present in the arena with hundreds of men when Themba Khosa addressed them or Humphrey Nglovo?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I was once there, only once.  Not only once more than once.

MR BERGER: And during that meeting somebody, let me put it just at that for the time being, somebody gave an order that all the loot from Boipatong must be burnt?  Do you remember that?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I cannot recall but I've heard that if I was there I would remember.

MR BERGER: No you were there because in your further particulars, question 5.1, you say they came with Attorney Anina van der Westhuizen, that's Themba Khosa and Humphrey Nglovo?  One of them, I can't remember which one of the two said that we must co-operate with the police?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I agree Mr Berger.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he says, he didn't hear, is the part dealing with the burning of the loot.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson also that answer does not necessarily - sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that right Mr Mthembu?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question 5 reads as follows
"Did Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Nglovo visit Kwamadala after the attack.  If so give some nature of this visit."
It does not - they said it points to the 18th, could also be the 19th the witness has been referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think Mr Berger is aware of the fact that what this witness has been repeatedly saying is that he is sure about the 19th but he is not sure about the 18th but in any event I think the point has been cleared, yes.

MR BERGER: Yes I am aware of that but Mr Mthembu, what you're saying is if Themba Khosa says he was there on the 18th, you're not going to dispute that?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I won't dispute that.

MR BERGER: If Mr Mkwanazi says that he attended a meeting on the 18th at the stadium or the arena where Themba Khosa was present and Humphrey Nglovo was present, you're not going to dispute that?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I won't dispute that.

MR BERGER: During the course of that day round about midday or the early hours of the afternoon, we know that all the loot from Boipatong was burnt, all the evidence that linked the attackers to Boipatong was burnt and destroyed.  You don't dispute that, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I cannot dispute that.

MR BERGER: And are you saying that at the time you were not aware at all of the fact that there was this burning going on?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I did not have knowledge.

MR BERGER: When was the first time that you heard that evidence from Boipatong had been burnt?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I heard that for the first time here in this TRC hearing.

MR BERGER: You never heard about it during the criminal trial?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No, I did not hear anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say you were isolated?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I'm saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say you were isolated?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I said I was isolated.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry Mr Mthembu, are you saying you never heard the evidence given during the trial?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That testimony was never given, I did not hear them testifying to that effect.  The other gentleman did not tell the truth there in court that here they've already indicated that they are telling the truth.

MR BERGER: It is correct is it not that you were present in court throughout the criminal trial?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I was present.

MR BERGER: And you heard the evidence given in court throughout the criminal trial?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.