Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-07-01

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, we hadn't officially taken in members.  What we had done, we were five, five people at the founding of SARO under which Mr Dries Alberts was one of them.  And we would have exactly the same as the National Socialist Partisans, tried to make it grow from there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yet you are the only one who took a decision to change the name from SAPAT to NSP.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Would you regard that organisation as having been a public organisation, Mr Du Plessis?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: No, it hadn't had the opportunity to become a public organisation yet.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you would agree with me that it was a private movement?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, we had a public objectives, but it was still known to a very few people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Nevertheless, it was a private movement.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes, I am not quite sure how to define between public and private in this circumstance.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It was not known to the general public as such?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: No, it was not known to the general public.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It was not known to the Afrikaans community.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, it was through Mr Dries Alberts, it could have become known to certain leader elements within the Afrikaans community.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But at that stage it had not been known.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Not that I know of.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You have mentioned that there was a penalty for refusal to carry out an order of a member of the NSP. Do you remember?  That's what you said in your evidence.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: No, I said that there was a penalty for betraying the organisation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there a penalty for refusal of carrying out of an instruction by a member?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: I hadn't come to that amount of final detail in the planning of the organisation, where a code of conduct had officially been set up yet.  I was still busy with the setting up of such a code of conduct. However, we would, I would have thought we would have to have had a, some form of penalty for anybody that did not obey a command.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So what we are saying is that at the time of the commission of the incident at Louis Trichardt, where three people were dead, your movement had not at that stage pronounced any conduct with regard to the refusal of carrying out of an order by the members of the NSP?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: No, I hadn't.

SISI KHAMPEPE: To be a member of the NSP the only qualification I heard you mentioning, was that you had to swear to the blood oath.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes, the only qualification that you had to have was that you had to be loyal to the White race and to our objectives of freeing the White people in this country.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you had to then cement your membership by the swearing of the blood oath?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: I had to what ...?

SISI KHAMPEPE: You had to cement your membership by the swearing of the blood oath, you had to take the blood oath, to confirm your membership.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: All right.  To the military in part, because of the sensitivity of the operations, it would be of vital importance for somebody to take that blood oath.  However, for the political wing it would not have been necessary.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Even the members who were there at the time of your arrest, have they all taken the blood oath?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Myself, White, Grobbelaar and Van Wyk had taken the blood oath, because we were all involved in the military aspect of the organisation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who did not have to take the blood oath of your total membership?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: The people who did not partake directly in operations and who did not have access to the finer detail of operations.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And who are those, are you able to mention them?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, these would be people that supported our ideas, our ideologies, like Mr Terblanche and Mr Van Rooyen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were they members of the SNP?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, as I said, the people didn't take a blood oath.  So I couldn't say, I cannot say that they were active members, no. Mr Van Rooyen had also indicated earlier that he could not actively become involved with us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: They were not members of the SNP?  There is no evidence that they were members of the SNP, either from you or from Mr Van Wyk.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: They were not officially written-in members, no.  We didn't take, we tried to refrain from that amount of documentation also.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now why ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, but the fact, if I may just ask you on that.  The fact that notwithstanding your approach to them, the fact that despite the fact that they sympathised they did not sign up as members. Isn't that a sign of rejection of your organisation and a clear expression of their unwillingness to become members of your organisation?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What must they have done to show that they didn't want to become members of your organisation?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, in such a case they wouldn't have given us financial support or the use of vehicles. They would have totally refrained from any activity concerning us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Du Plessis, the reason that you proceeded to steal the car was because you couldn't get a car from any of your supporters. Is it not so?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes, at that stage I couldn't get another car again, but the first time I did get a car.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Including Mr Terreblanche, he couldn't give you further use of his car?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, seeing that he was using it himself as well, we couldn't permanently use it and we needed a vehicle that we could permanently use.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is it possible that you could have got financial assistance from your supporters, if you had asked?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: We did get some financial support. However, it was because they were not multi-millionaires, it wasn't, it was inadequate for our aims.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: For how long did you remain only four?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: I beg your pardon?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The life-span of your organisation?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How long was it?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: A couple of months.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: About six, 12?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, from the stage that we actively started doing operations until we were arrested, was about three months, three, four months.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And it remained constantly four all the time?
At all times it was just the four?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes, at that stage until we had established a base, the nucleus, the cell that was supposed to do the preparations for the expansion of the organisation, had to stay only four.

HASSAN MALL: At what stage did you think that the political wing of your organisation was going to be brought into existence?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: As soon as we had attained a large sum of money and we had established the military base, and we were out of public circulation, Mr Speaker.

HASSAN MALL: Can I understand from that - yes.

JUDGE WILSON: This is set out, isn't it, in Annexure B, do you know Annexure B to your application?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: I haven't got it in my memory.

JUDGE WILSON: It begins "geweld, deel van regse politiese denke"
"Violence, part of right-wing political thinking.  Unfortunately I and one of the supporters of the organisation were arrested before we could go over to phases 2 to 10."
It sets out there 10 phases that you had to do.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: That's right.

JUDGE WILSON: And that's just what you have told my Brother here, the first phase is collection of weapons, the second collection of money, and you set out the 10 phases in that report.