Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

MR COETZEE: At this stage when you met Mr De Meillon, when Mr Van Schalkwyk introduced him to you, whom did he tell you Mr De Meillon was?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: He told me that he was a Commandant in the BWB, Mr Chair.

MR COETZEE: Was there any indication of his efficiency and capabilities?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No sir.

MR COETZEE: On the 23rd of April, that was the day of the shooting incident at Devon, in the course of the afternoon, were you present at your house when Messrs De Meillon and Van Schalkwyk arrived there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No sir.

MR COETZEE: Did you at a stage arrive at your home and found Mr Holder there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair, I was at a friend's home where Mr Holder went to fetch me.

MR COETZEE: What did Mr Holder then tell you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Mr Holder told me that Mr De Meillon and Mr Van Schalkwyk had spoken to him, and we had been told to go to Pretoria where we would go and obtain firearms.

MR COETZEE: What were the firearms you were going to obtain?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Automatic firearms.

MR COETZEE: What would these be used for?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: For our safe houses where we were to protect the families.

MR COETZEE: Was the end of this then, or was the decision then that you went to Pretoria with Mr De Meillon and Mr Holder?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: At that stage, when you were on your way to Pretoria, what did you believe to be the target?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, that there would have been illegal firearms at a certain place where we had to go and fetch them.  We were informed that it was an easy target and that by the time of the evening we arrived there, the people would normally be drunk.

MR COETZEE: Who had brought you under this impression?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Mr De Meillon.

MR COETZEE: When you arrived in Pretoria, what happened?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Mr De Meillon told me that we had to go to Vermeulen Street.  I took him to Vermeulen Street.

MR COETZEE: What happened then?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Afterwards I heard that it was a Defence Headquarters' building.  There were two guards at that stage, and four more guards arrived.
	He told us to eliminate the guards who were there and rob them of their firearms.

MR COETZEE: Were you prepared to do so?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR COETZEE: And what was then the end of the, or the conclusion of this Pretoria operation?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, we returned to Secunda.

MR COETZEE: Could you possibly give us an indication of what time you departed from Secunda to Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Approximately four o'clock the afternoon.

MR COETZEE: How long did you spend in Pretoria in total would you say?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: About half an hour.

MR COETZEE: And then you returned by driving back in the direction of Secunda, what happened?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, we stopped along the way and Mr De Meillon said to us that we had to go to Devon because he knew the base, he had done his military service there.
	He wanted to go and see what the situation was, what it looked like.

MR COETZEE: At that stage, did you have a  shotgun with you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: Where was it?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: It was in the boot of the car.

MR COETZEE: Did you take it out at any stage?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR COETZEE: You then dropped off Messrs Holder and De Meillon at the Radar Station at Devon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: What was the arrangement for you, what were you supposed to do then?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, I had to wait from eleven o'clock to 11:20, when they would return and it was done at the instruction of Mr De Meillon.

MR COETZEE: The fact that Mr De Meillon was 21 years of age at that stage, did it influence your decision as to carrying out his instructions or not?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No, it didn't.

MR COETZEE: Why not?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: He was a Commandant in the BWB, I had been put under his command to carry out his commands and instructions.

MR COETZEE: Did you have any rank in the AWB?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR COETZEE: Then what happened while you were waiting there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I just heard three shots and then I saw Mr De Meillon and Mr Holder come running towards the car.

MR COETZEE: When they arrived at the car, what was reported to you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I was told that the one policeman had perhaps been killed, it is the first time that I heard that there were policemen there, and Mr De Meillon left the stolen firearm in my car, and told me to keep it with me.

MR COETZEE: The stolen firearm was a 9 mm pistol?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct Mr Chair.

MR COETZEE: You then drove back to Secunda where you dropped off Mr De Meillon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: Could you perhaps tell us where you, or describe to us where you dropped him off?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, just as you go into Secunda, there is a house on the left, we dropped him off there.  It is just a little hillock which prevents the wind, or which blocks the wind and Mr Van Rensburg lived there, Mr De Meillon went to him.

MR COETZEE: Mr Van Rensburg, did he belong to the organisation and what was his rank?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: He was a General in the BWB.

MR COETZEE: Was the idea the Mr De Meillon would go to Mr Van Rensburg's home?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chair.

MR COETZEE: Did you then also go to - well, where did you go after, you and Mr Holder, after dropping off Mr De Meillon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, we went to Mr Van Rensburg's home to tell him that Mr De Meillon had been wounded, and he told us that he had already arrived, that is Mr De Meillon, and that they would pass the message on to Mr Van Schalkwyk.

MR COETZEE: Did you discuss this operation with some of your AWB Officers?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR COETZEE: With whom and what were the circumstances?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Mr Flippie Maree told us that the police already knew about the incident.

MR COETZEE: Could you perhaps tell us who Flippie Maree is in the AWB?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: He is a Lieutenant in the AWB.

MR COETZEE: Also in Secunda?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR COETZEE: So he said the police already knew about the incident?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct Mr Chair.

MR COETZEE: What did you then do with the pistol?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Mr Maree told me to disassemble the pistol and throw it in the dam.

MR COETZEE: What did you do then?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I carried out his instructions.

MR COETZEE: Is it correct that you were then arrested on the 27th of April?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: You were found guilty on charges of murder and armed robbery and on each of these charges, you were sentenced to eight years imprisonment, as well as the unlawful possession of the firearm for which you were sentenced to 18 months imprisonment, and the illegal possession of ammunition.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: With an order that the sentences should run concurrently, which would lead to eight years of effective imprisonment?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: Mr Van Zyl, during the trial where you were tried as a criminal, evidence was also presented that you participated in an identification in Devon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And the Court ultimately found that you and Mr Holder according to your evidence, on the evening before the incident, did not go to Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: Could you please explain?