Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR MOSTERT: So what you are trying to tell the Committee then is that he basically wanted to test you in this exceptional manner?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: From this offence was their any personal gratification?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.

MR MOSTERT: And did you do this because you were angry with this specific taxi driver or because he was spiteful?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.

MR MOSTERT: The robbery - what was your motive behind the robbery?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: When the financial side of the matter was in trouble, seeing as they promised us...[intervention]

MR MOSTERT: Could you just stop there a moment.  Who promised you financial backup?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: A project was launched in the AWB, the order of R1000, that a 1000 people would give a thousand rands and the million rands that would emanate from that would be applied for the establishment for underground movements and underground cells and this never realised.

MR MOSTERT: Very well, you can continue from where you paused.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: When we realised that nothing would be realised from this matter, he also gave me an order to commit a robbery in order to maintain ourselves.

MR MOSTERT: From the point that you resigned until you were arrested, how did you manage financially?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I did odd jobs among others shortly before my arrest.  I worked as a body guard for a person who had picked up problems with the black taxi movements, they had been threatening him with death.  The person went to complain at members of our cell because he was experiencing these problems and they told me to serve that purpose.  At that point we were waiting for weapons which were being repaired and which were being purchased.

MR MOSTERT: For how long were you without an income?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I'm not certain, approximately for two or three months I was a body guard for this man but in the beginning of August I resigned from work at the Post Office and I was arrested in December.

MR MOSTERT: From this specific robbery, how much did you personally get?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Approximately R900.  But the robbery was also a trial run in order to see whether or not it would be possible to finance ourselves in that manner but the risks were simply too high and it wasn't worth it to carry out such actions.

MR MOSTERT: What did you do with the R900?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: We used it for petrol and ammunition which we needed at that point because we naturally had to do target shooting in order to keep our eyes in focus.

MR MOSTERT: You have testified regarding the objective, if you could just repeat for the sake of clarity what the objective was with this robbery specifically.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: We wanted to determine whether or not we could finance ourselves using that method.

MR MOSTERT: And did you regard this robbery as an act on order?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: And it was an order issued by Mr de Beer?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.  The security police played a tape for me which was recorded at Dawie de Beer's house and that was when the orders were issued for us.

MR MOSTERT: What you must explain to the Committee on the basis of what you actually testified, was this done for personal gain or for with another objective in mind?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, if this had been for personal gain I would never have resigned from the Post Office.  I had a good job.

MR MOSTERT: Were you spiteful or malicious regarding this murder when you executed or planned it?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.  We weren't furnished with any details regarding precisely what type of robbery we should commit it was left to ourselves personally and I took it upon myself to choose such a target and a time at which there was the least possibility that the public would be involved.  We committed the robbery at approximately eight o'clock in the morning.

MR MOSTERT: The murder, who was involved with you in that?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Fanie Goosen.

MR MOSTERT: And with the robbery?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Also Fanie Goosen and a third person who I knew only as Bruce, he was one of Fanie Goosen's friends - at that point he had joined our cell.

MR MOSTERT: The escape - who all escaped?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Fanie Goosen and me.

MR MOSTERT: He was with you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Let's look at the escape.  What was your personal motive.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Well the struggle was continuing on the outside and I couldn't stay in jail if there was an opportunity for me to get out and participate in the struggle.

MR MOSTERT: Were there any specific instructions for you to escape?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Just general instructions that I should look around and watch out to see if there was the opportunity for me to get out I should take it.

MR MOSTERT: After your escape did you make any further contribution to the struggle as you saw it?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I planted two bombs for which I've already received exemption.

MR MOSTERT: I would like to refer you to the application form , that is page 2, if you will just look at item 10(b) the question is stated: "Your motivation for the deeds and offences?" and your answer is that "the murder on the person was simply an initiation with the objective to eliminating Black leaders later."  What was your plan with the Black leaders which you have mentioned here?  Just for greater clarity?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: We would have concentrated on the NP leaders initially but at a later stage we decided that the ANC leaders had more power at that point than the CP.

MR MOSTERT: Did you have any specific targets in mind, did you have any specific instructions with regard to Black political leaders?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No at that point there were not specific orders, we were waiting for the correct weapons to come through.

MR MOSTERT: How long after the murder and the robbery were you arrested?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I don't know.  What was the last date regarding the deeds?

MR MOSTERT: The 19th September 1989 was the date of the robbery and the murder was the 29th August.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I was arrested in December.

MR MOSTERT: Very well, from the date that you committed the murder until you were arrested, did you have any further liaison with Mr de Beer?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Only indirectly.

MR MOSTERT: At that stage did you receive any further instructions from him with regard to any specific targets?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No every time that we queried about targets and instructions we were sent a message to wait.

MR MOSTERT: In which way did you communicate with him?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Through Mr Binneman who was also arrested with me in terms of Section 29.

MR MOSTERT: I have studied your report with you, page 5, regarding the Crime and Intelligence Service.  They wrote a report regarding you actions.  Did you co-operate with these persons at any point?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, I was being held under terms of Section 29 and I tried to resist them in any possible way.

MR MOSTERT: For how long were you detained?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: For two months.

MR MOSTERT: Was this specifically after the murder and robbery that you were detained under Section 29?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: At which point did you escape, was it after
detention?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes after the detention for approximately a month or six weeks I was held in Diepkloof for awaiting trial and I escaped during that period.

MR MOSTERT: At that point who was your legal counsel while you were awaiting trial, who was your legal representation?