Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No I can't recall that at all.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of a case where a youth was allegedly poisoned in detention and it was thereafter, after forensic research by Professor Francis Ames, determined that thallium was the cause of the poisoning?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: When you say I am aware, I might have read about it, but I simply cannot recall it.

MR VALLY: Why I am registering surprise is I would have thought as, number one, the Surgeon-General or someone very close to him, and number two, someone looking into chemical and biological warfare that you would be very interested in any poisoning of this kind allegedly in police custody.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I totally disagree with you Mr Vally.  I had no idea that there was any possibility that this programme could be abused for that purpose.

MR VALLY: I see.  Alright.  Well let's go on. So regarding whether it was legitimate or not we will get some indication from checking the list.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: You know as one goes on, aldycarb, an insecticide which is highly toxic in animals and humans.  Now as a doctor, even as a medical student if aldycarb and orange juice are together what would it mean to you?  If they are mixed together like this states, six such mixtures comprising 200 milligrams each.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That would make me very suspicious that the cold drink that you mentioned is being abused or used for illegal purposes.

MR VALLY: Possibly murder?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I am not quite sure, I don't know aldycarb well enough but you've read to me what it causes there.  If it's in a sufficient dose and it is a deadly substance then clearly murder.

MR VALLY: We've talked about paraoxane and you said it wasn't included in these ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I didn't say that.  I said it might be part of the broader group of organo-phosphates.

MR VALLY: I see.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: I see.  Well paraoxane as we know is an organo-phosphate which is highly toxic.  It causes respiratory paralysis, convulsions, diarrhoea and collapse of the heart.  And the dosage that is here is likely to be fatal, it could be used for at least ten persons, the poisoning to death of at least ten persons, would you concede that?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No I don't know what the deadly dose is, but if you say it is that and if that is substantiated scientifically then I would agree with you.

MR VALLY: Vitamin D, or Vit D3 as it's often referred to, ocilicalsipheral, now what is sinister about this is it's tasteless and difficult to detect in post mortem examinations.  And it directly affects the heart, in fact poisons the heart.  Are you aware of this?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I wasn't aware of that, no.  I certainly saw the document that you are referring to where it's discussed and I've already said to you, if I see something like that on a list like this and those are the characteristics that would be highly indicative of a possible abuse or planning to abuse.

MR VALLY: If we go down and we look at capsules of sodium cyanide, 20th of June 1989, 50.  Again what would you understand by seeing such an item on this list?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is a poison.

MR VALLY: Deadly poison.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And 50 capsules likely to kill at least 50 people.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes. The same answer applies to that as I have just given you.

MR VALLY: That the motive would be sinister and possibly the intention would be murder somebody.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Botulism in the beer can, 21st of June 1989.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I think the same applies to that.

MR VALLY: Sugar and salmonella.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes that would also create some suspicion with me on the same basis.

MR VALLY: Now on the 27th of July 1989 one baboon foetus, what would a baboon foetus be doing on a list like this in a chemical biological warfare facility?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I have no idea Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: You are aware, and this is the 27th of July 1989, that in August '89 a baboon foetus was hung in the garden of Archbishop Tutu at Bishopscourt in Cape Town?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes I think I read about that.

MR VALLY: Did you make this link when you saw this, this list?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes when did the incident actually occur?

MR VALLY: Apparently in August '89 and this date of delivery is 27th of July 1989.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes, no I didn't make the link, I only saw the list in I think February '97, or after the trunks were discovered, and I didn't at that stage remember the exact date.  But if the dates are as you are now giving them to me and they coincide as closely as this, then certainly I would have made such a link.

MR VALLY: There's reference to what's called "spore", spores and "letter" 9th of June '89.  We understand that this was allegedly spores of anthrax put on the gum of an envelope.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Where are you referring to now Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, it's the 21st - let me just get the exact - 9th of June '89.  I've gone back a bit.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally I don't quite understand, on this list is written "spore en 'n brief".

MR VALLY: Ja.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: But you are now saying, you are giving some additional information.

MR VALLY: Well that is true, and the reason I am giving you this additional information is this is what we determined by the person who prepared these substances.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I see.  Well if I had that information that would be very indicative of what you are saying.

MR VALLY: But anthrax spores on their own ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I don't think there's a problem with that.

MR VALLY: That wouldn't be a problem for you.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No.  If that list is made available to the Committee you will see that anthrax certainly is one of the organisms that is very definitely used, commonly used as a biological, or developed as a biological weapon, and Professor Folb can also verify that.

MR VALLY: How do you justify, in terms of your programme, anthrax which is resistance to antibiotics, the normal manner of treating it?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Would you repeat the question, how do I justify?

MR VALLY: The production of antibiotic-resistant anthrax.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I think the question is how do you justify any resistance within such an organism?  That per se I would not have a difficulty with, because clearly anthrax that is, or any organism for that matter which is developed to develop a resistance against antibiotics is exactly what an enemy would try to do if he used a biological weapon.  But you know resistance to antibiotics per se it doesn't say whether these are all known antibiotics or only the well-known ones that are normally used for this particular organism.  I think that type of research would be acceptable.

MR VALLY: So it would be acceptable to try and find a biological substance which is resistant, to develop one which is resistant to normal treatment?