Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

MR LAX: let me help. Let me help again. It is really quite simple.

ADV GCABASHE: It is a sound thing. Speak a bit louder, so she can pick it up. I am listening to the Xhosa here. (...indistinct)

MR LAX: Ja he is speaking very loud on the thing. It is very loud in my ears. Yes, no I know you are listening to the Xhosa. He is speaking loudly. I do not know what the problem is but.
(The interpreter can hear Mr Lax clearly however I cannot hear Mr Botma as clearly as I can hear you. I have a problem.)

MR LAX: Okay what he is saying is, the question is this; Thanduxolo got out of his car, walked towards you, you got out of the car, you walked towards him. You made a report to him.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR LAX: After that did he go and inspect Donne in the vehicle?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I told him that there was a white female in the truck then he went to the truck to look.

MR LAX: After that, after he had inspected her did he then order you to carry her over the fence and put her in the forest?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR LAX: And you did that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: What happened to Thanduxolo at the time that you took her into the forest?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He was busy searching the truck. He was busy searching the truck. After we put Donne over the fence Thanduxolo came with a 357 Magnum, a shorter one. He then said he found this weapon in the truck. After he got it I then went to the truck to see if I could find anything in the truck. This is when I found this small trunk closed. I tried to open it. However this was happening very quickly. It was not as slow as I am telling the story. After I opened the trunk I heard a sound, a bang. Thanduxolo then jumped over the fence saying that we should leave. My co-accused was next to the door of the truck and we got in and we left.

MR BOTMA: Did Thanduxolo went to that, or let me ask you this way. You saw him with this 357 in his hand?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I did see him.

MR BOTMA: Did you see any knife or any other sharp instrument in his possession?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I think that he had a knife. Because after he jumped over the fence I noticed that his hand had blood. He had something in his hand, a sharp weapon. I am not sure what it was.

MR BOTMA: Was it something like a knife or another sharpened instrument?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I did not see the handle. However it was some form of sharp instrument.

MR BOTMA: I am asking these questions because according to the post mortem report there were several incised wounds on the body of Donne. You are not able to explain the reason for that to this Commission?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No I am not able to because we left Donne with Thanduxolo. After that I do not know what happened to Donne. I last saw her whilst she was in the truck.

CHAIRPERSON: You last saw her while she was in the truck. What do you mean by that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He was asking specifically about the wounds. I said that the last time she was in the truck that I saw her she had no such wounds.

MR LAX: Well you saw her all the way to the place that you put her down.

CHAIRPERSON: You carried her yourself.

MR LAX: How could have that been the last place you saw her whether she had wounds or not?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I was responding to the question specifically about the wounds. Botma asked me if I saw any wounds. I was not able, the only wound I saw was the bullet wound in her face.

CHAIRPERSON: The reply you gave was: "The last time I saw Donne was in the truck."

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I then incorrectly answered because Botma was asking about the wounds.

CHAIRPERSON: Why should you think the wounds had anything to do with when you last saw her in the truck? Did you cause the wounds after you took her out of the truck?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No I did not cause the wounds. I did not cause the wounds.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if Zama or Thanduxolo caused
(The speaker's mike was not on.)

ADV SANDI: Do you know whether it is Thanduxolo or Zama who caused those wounds on the body of Donne?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I think that it was Thanduxolo because when I got to the truck I searched the truck. After that there was a bang that disturbed me whilst I was searching. When I looked my co-accused was on the passenger's side, standing there. After that Thanduxolo came with blood in his hands and on his T-shirt that he was wearing. He is the one who caused the wounds on Donne.

MR BOTMA: Mr Chair can you give any indication till what time the Commission is prepared to sit today?

CHAIRPERSON: I am afraid we will have to adjourn in half an hour because we have the trouble with the, they have to close at four, they close at four and I think. That is so isn't it? Four 'o clock is the deadline as far as you people are concerned?
Can one sit later?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we have taken considerably much longer than I thought we would on this hearing and I think we should take some more time. Half past four. I think we will continue until at least half past four, is that alright? I am sorry I misunderstood you. Okay we will go on until half past four.

MR LAX: Are you guys doing alright, the interpreters?

INTERPRETERS: We are fine.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR BOTMA: Except for searching of. I will start again. The reason for searching the truck was to look for another firearm. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes. Anything that would be useful.

MR BOTMA: Useful in what sense?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Something like money or anything that would be useful to the army.

MR BOTMA: Useful to the army or to you personally?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: When you are referring to me, you are referring to the army because I was part and parcel of the army. I am talking about the army APLA.

MR BOTMA: Is it correct that at the time you were searched, that is after your arrest that some of the money was found in the possession of your co-accused?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: At that time I was with Magathlela. So I was at a distance from my co-accused. I did not notice what was found in his possession because he was on the other side and I was on the other side with the other group of the police ... money was with us.

ADV GCABASHE: Now having listened to APLA applications in the last two weeks my understanding is anything you repossess you immediately hand over. You as soldiers hand it over. Did I get the wrong impression?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: That is correct. After we found something we have to surrender it.

ADV GCABASHE: Now would you not surrender that to your commander as you were filing your report?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: When we got to Mbashe Thanduxolo said that we are going to meet in some other place. Everything was in the car with us. Everything depended on me as I was the one who was given the responsibility. We reported to him that there is money and then he said that no we will talk about that. We were then unfortunate and then we were arrested before we reached our destination.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you discuss the possibility of capture between the Mbashe and Adishua and being found not only with the truck but with a gun and money, with Mandla?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No we did not discuss that. I even thought that since we were in the rural areas there are no phones in the rural areas. People will take time to inform the police. At that time we would be in our area or in our destination. We did not discuss, we did not have a chance to discuss that. We did not discuss it.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman one of the translators from the booth on the right hand side has just indicated to me that they are extremely tired. The strain or apparently the focus is on that booth then. The Committee only looked I think to the left.

CHAIRPERSON: No we looked to the right as well.