Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MR VISSER: The point is Mr Motsamai, and I'm going to put it to you straight away.  Apparently, you were the only one who didn't know why you were going to Pretoria because everybody else knew that they went there because of the notification of Mr Ngo's application which they received.  You're the only one that didn't know that apparently.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, I'm telling you that if you led them to say that, they would say that but we left here not knowing, then some of them were discussing about TRC issues.

MR VISSER: In the statement which you made Mr Motsamai, did you tell the truth -  the statement you just told us just now that you made under oath?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You mean the statement I made to you, you mean the statement I made in your office?

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, Mr Motsamai, let's just get the characters correct here.  I wasn't in an office, I didn't see you, Mr Wagner sitting next to me saw you in his office and you made a statement to him did you not and you told us how you made a statement individually while you were alone with him in the office.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I explained that I made the statement but for the first time when I met here, I hurried and informed Mr Mpshe that - I said to him: "Mr Mpshe, I made a statement under certain - these conditions there.  That is not a true statement because I would come and tell the correct statements to the Truth Commission.

MR VISSER: So, at last you've now agreed that what you said in the statement was not true.  Now please Mr Motsamai, did you think that you were making a statement in an application for amnesty when you made this particular statement?
	Mr Chairman, it's bundle B, page 29.  
Did you think you were making a statement for an application for amnesty?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Let me page through and look first.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I don't understand the basis of the question but I think it would help us a great deal if people in conducting their cross-examination, do so prudently.  The evidence which has come from the witness was that when they went they thought that - he thought that they were going to do an application.  When they arrived there, he discovered that they were being told to say things against Ngo and be united against Ngo.  And if we have that prudence and show that we are experienced members of the bar, I hope we'll proceed sooner - quicker than we are doing now.

MR VISSER: I wish to state Mr Chairman, that it lies ill in the mouth of Mr Memani to criticize me.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't see what you are talking about.

MR VISSER: It's a very simple question you see Mr Motsamai and I can understand why you don't want to reply to it.  I'm asking you, did you think you were making a statement in an application for amnesty when you made the statement at bundle B, page 29 and following?  It's a very easy question.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Which bundle - where is bundle B?

CHAIRPERSON: Has he got it?

MR VISSER: Do you recognize the document which has now been placed before you Mr Motsamai?  Don't you recognize the document Mr Motsamai?  Do you want to read through the whole document in order to identify it?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I want to look at the document just there, just at the bottom and see what's happen there.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, while he is looking at the document - I wonder this is - the papers in front of him are my working copies.  I wonder if possibly overnight Mr Memani or his attorneys could arrange for copies of bundle A and bundle B and bundle C to be made - well not bundle C but bundle A and bundle B made for the witness so that I can also have copies to look at when the questions are being asked.  It's most unsatisfactory.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I stated from the first day that I expect it to be the TRC which provides copies for witnesses who are going to sit there.  Everybody can sit there including victims which is not our function to provide these things, these things are provided by the TRC and we ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It is your applicant who is giving evidence, isn't it?

ADV MEMANI: That may be so but that - what I'm saying ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you think he should have a copy of the papers?

ADV MEMANI: And I'm saying that the TRC gave him the papers.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think Mr Brink, I don't know whether the applicant would have facilities to copy all these documents but perhaps it should be mentioned in all fairness to the applicant, that in terms of the guidelines which we issued for the conduct of proceedings before us, any party who wants to use documents must make sure that all interested parties get copies of those documents in advance.  And in this case Mr Visser, it would mean that because you are the person who wanted to come and make use of these copies, in terms of our rules and guidelines you should make copies available - sufficient copies available.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, would that mean that after we had made copies available, sufficient numbers of copies for the Committee, for everybody concerned that we should also make copies for every witness that might come along?  With respect Mr Chairman, that couldn't ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I hear you, I think I hear you - I get your point, then in which case Mr Brink I don't know whether the applicant can reasonably be expected to have facilities overnight so that he can reproduce these documents.

MR BRINK: With respect Mr Chairman, the applicant is represented - copies of the documentation were handed to his legal representative.  Copies were made from those because I know Mr Mthembu had copies although not bound and it seems to me that this is their client, it's not for the TRC to provide their client with copies.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think it's totally unrealistic.  We know that we had problems until last week about fees even to pay counsel, let alone costs of reproducing all these documents.  I don't think it's a realistic request to say that overnight counsel for the applicant will be in a position to have copies of these documents.  If the TRC has got facilities, those facilities must be used for the purpose of facilitating the proceedings.  If we don't have those facilities, then so be it.

CHAIRPERSON: I would suggest that we adjourn now, that Mr Visser informs Mr Memani what documents if any, he's going to put to the witness and I think his attorney can quite easily copy those particular documents.  So far it is three pages.  I agree that it is impossible - I should imagine impossible, to copy the whole of bundle A and bundle B but the matters relating to Mr Motsamai in bundle A is about what - 10 pages.

MR VISSER: May I respond Mr Chairman.  To make it quite simple, from bundle B, I'm simply going to refer to pages 29 to 34 and that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: And the relevant pages of bundle A are from page 140 to 148.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I think we should be looking at a long-term solution of this thing rather than - the problem is not going to end tomorrow.  Today's he's talking about five pages but there are so many documents, there are so many pages that had to be dealt with and the reality of the situation is as I put it, that from time to time there'll be people who are going to be sitting here - for instance, victims are coming, I do not understand why we shouldn't be speaking of a bundle for witnesses that is going to used there.  Alternatively, if you're speaking about ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, have you got a copy of the whole record and has your attorney got a copy of the whole record?

ADV MEMANI: We received one copy, he made a copy for himself.