Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-29

CHAIRPERSON: I understand this is the Mthwana application.  The Panel is the same as before.  I just need to ask the representatives to identify themselves on record for the purposes of that record.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My name's Ms Mohamed from the firm Dehal Incorporated, on record for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there no appearance for any victim?

MS THABETHE: No Mr Chair, the victims could not be traced.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that there were sufficient attempt to find the victims?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, I am.  There were adverts in the newspaper.

PAULUS MTHWANA: (sworn states)

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Mthwana, I show you a typed statement, a two page statement which you have signed.  Do you confirm the correctness of that statement?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, I do.

MS MOHAMED: Now Mr Mthwana, I'm going to take you to the bundle of documents.  On pages 1 to 3 is your application form.  Now look at page 1, do you confirm that it correctly reflects the details?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, it does.

MS MOHAMED: Okay, look at page 2.  Are the details correctly reflected on this page?

PAULUS MTHWANA: The first paragraph is not correct, as well as the paragraphs below.

MS MOHAMED: So the first paragraph, in other words paragraph 9(a)(iv) is incorrect?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: Okay and which other paragraph, if you could point me to it.

PAULUS MTHWANA: Paragraph 10(a).

MS MOHAMED: Okay.  Now 9(a) reads
"Armed robbery of the car.  The intention was to sell this car so that I can buy some weapons for securing the society"
And then 10(a):
"Political objective was to buy the weapons so that the community would stay safe and secure"
Now what's incorrect about that Mr Mthwana?

PAULUS MTHWANA: The reason for robbing the car was not to buy arms, but to go and collect weapons.

MS MOHAMED: Okay.  Now look at page 3.  Does page 3 correctly reflect the details of your application on this page?

PAULUS MTHWANA: There are some inaccuracies.  It is not Sipo Ncumalo but Nhlanhla Gumede, at paragraph 11(b).

MS MOHAMED: So paragraph 11(b) should not be Sipo Ncumalo but - sorry, I couldn't get that first name.

PAULUS MTHWANA: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.  Now Mr Mthwana, ... (interven-tion)

CHAIRPERSON: Well before you carry on.   Mr Mthwana, this application form, did you complete it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I am the person who filled in the form, but I was in the company of others.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but you completed it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I filled in some of the details.

CHAIRPERSON: But the writing in this application form seemed to indicate that it was completed by the same person, it is the same handwriting.  I'm not a handwriting expert, but just looking at these three pages, they seem to have been completed by the same person.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I'm not sure about the handwriting, but I just wanted to correct some inaccuracies.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Mthwana, who filled in this form?  Who physically wrote in the answers to these questions?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I filled in page 1 as well as page 3, but I'm not sure about page 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Look at the top paragraph on page 2.  It's sub-paragraph (iv) of 9(a).  Have you got it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who filled in that?  Is that your handwriting or somebody else's handwriting?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It's not my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: And 10(a)?

MS MOHAMED: Who wrote in paragraph 10(a) Mr Mthwana?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I do not recall clearly, because this was done in 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: And 9(a), who wrote that in?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Page 2?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 1.

PAULUS MTHWANA: Page 1.  It's me.

CHAIRPERSON: You.  Are you sure of that?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now look how the words armed robbery have been written and compare that to sub-paragraph 4 on the top of page 2.  Would that not have been the same person?

PAULUS MTHWANA: The contents are almost true, but not 100% accurate.

MR LAX: The question was, who wrote it, Mr Mthwana and what was put to you by the Chairperson was, do they not look the same?  Look at the words armed robbery at the top of page 2 and the words armed robbery at 9(a)(i), which you've agreed is your handwriting and the question is, don't they look exactly the same?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It does look similar, but the contents do not reflect  ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No we're not asking - we'll come to the contents.  We're talking about who filled them in.  Who wrote in them?  Didn't you fill in this form yourself?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I did fill it in, page 1 and 3.

CHAIRPERSON: What about 10(a)?  Did you fill that in or not, on page 2?

PAULUS MTHWANA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And 10(b)?  Is that your handwriting?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I am not happy with page 2.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not concerned as to whether you're happy with it.  I'm asking if it's your handwriting at 10(b).  It's not yours?  Is it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It's not my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: What on page 2 is your handwriting then?  Nothing?

PAULUS MTHWANA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So page 2 is a forgery?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I didn't write that.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 2 is a forgery then?  You didn't write it.

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why is that?  Why did you fill in page 1 and page 3 and somebody else filled in page 2?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I cannot recall clearly because this occurred in 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?  Why can't you recall?

PAULUS MTHWANA: This was done in a hurry, so I cannot recall quite well.

CHAIRPERSON: You signed this document at the end, is that right?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You signed it and you were satisfied with the contents of this application before you signed it.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was satisfied with what I had written.

CHAIRPERSON: No that's not the question.  Were you satisfied with the whole of the application before you signed it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was satisfied with what I'd written.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were aware of the contents at the time you signed it, correct?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was aware of what I had written.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about what you had written only, the whole of the application.  Before you signed it you were satisfied with the contents of this document, as I understand your evidence.

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were aware of the contents of paragraphs 9(a)(iv) and 10(a) when you signed this document, correct?  Now you've just said, before you signed it you were aware of the contents of this document.  If you weren't satisfied with the contents of paragraphs 9(a)(iv) and or 10(a), then why did you sign it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Let's just turn to page 6.

MR LAX: We're dealing with page 2 Mr Mthwana.  Changing the page is not going to help at this point.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, but the corrections have been made on page 6.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not concerned about the corrections yet.  I'm asking you why you signed this document if there was incorrect information on it.  That's what I'm asking you.  You ...(indistinct) an opportunity to testify about the corrections.  I'm asking you why you signed a document that wasn't correct.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I cannot say, but at that time I was in prison and did not have time to read through everything.  I was fortunate to even receive and fill in that form as well as to hear about the TRC, but we did not have enough time.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, is your answer that you cannot remember why you signed a document that was incorrect?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I would like to explain that I did not have time to read through this document to identify those mistakes.  It was only when Mr ...(indistinct) returned to the prison, that I could identify the mistakes.