Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mohlaba, just try and confine him to responding to questions being put to him.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  Mr Selahle, I want you to tell us about, if you want to give us names, give us names of people who were involved in the planning and the subsequent killing of Joseph Mkhabela - who was involved in this planning, if you want to give us their names?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: There was Lawrence Makgabe, there was Mohapi Mokgatsametso.

MR LAX: Can you just spell those names for us please, either Mr Interpreter or somebody else?  Lawrence, what was his surname?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Lawrence Makgabe and the other one was Mohapi, that is the name, Mokgatsametso.  There was Tsepo Moloi, Joseph Lehlarelo and Veli Nkosi.  There was Fanyana, I have forgotten his surname.  That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying these are the people who planned the killing of Mr Mkhabela?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.  Myself included and Peter Tsiani and Titus.  We came together, all of us, and planned this.

CHAIRPERSON: When did this planning take place?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was on the same day when we went to fetch the bullets - when the people were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was on the 25th of January 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you when you planned?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We were at Tanzania Section.

CHAIRPERSON: What were the details of your plan?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We planned that these people must be accosted and after that, we would then proceed with the work.

MR LAX: What was the work?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The elimination of Joseph Mkhabela.  It was not only him, but the three that we met,  Joseph Mkhabela is the first one we met, before we could meet the others.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying you planned that they must be accosted?  Who is they?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The people who shot the passengers in the taxi.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know them?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We saw them.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you seen them before?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was our first time to see them after this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see them shooting the people inside the kombi?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: No, we did not see them.  We saw them after they had finished doing it.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that they had done it?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: When we moved out of the hostel, there was a kombi parked outside and people were shot in that taxi.  We asked these people at the taxi what happened, and they told us that they did not know what happened, they only saw a taxi being shot at and afterwards people ran towards the hostel.
	Those are the people we have met, so we concluded they were the people who shot at the taxi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mohlaba, you are still dealing with the planning of Mr Mkhabela's killing.  You may proceed.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  You have mentioned names of people who took part in the planning of the death of Mr Mkhabela and you also mentioned something about you coming from a memorial service.  Were you in the company of all those people whom you have mentioned?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: And can you continue and explain how Mkhabela was killed and the steps taken by you and other comrades who were in your company?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: On the day of Mkhabela's killing, I have already indicated that we were from a memorial service.  We were waiting for the traffic to pass so that we could cross the road, and the kombi that we saw, was the one who took Mkhabela and it stopped a little distance from us.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt, you say the kombi that you saw, was the one that took Mkhabela and that was the end of your testimony.  It doesn't make sense.
	The kombi that you saw was the one that had taken Mkhabela from where and when was that?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: This is a kombi that was driven by Mkhabela.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is not the kombi that had taken Mkhabela, you mean it is the kombi that was driven by Mr Mkhabela?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In your earlier testimony again you gave evidence that would suggest that Mr Mkhabela did not drive the kombi, and that is the evidence that related to when ...

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I did explain he was the driver of the kombi from the firms.  We saw him the first time in the firms.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I was still telling you our difficulty with your evidence, either that or your evidence has not been properly translated to us.
	Your earlier evidence suggested that Mr Mkhabela was driven from the firm and that is why you could not proceed to do something about him, when you identified him at the firm.  Do you remember when you said something about having followed Mr Mkhabela and having seen him in a firm?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I still remember that.  That is what I am trying to explain, maybe it was not properly interpreted to you.
	When we arrived at the firms, we were still discussing as to how we would approach this person, and at the same time, Mr Mkhabela got into the kombi and the same kombi drove out and we were still planning as to how we would approach him.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he got into the kombi, do you mean he got into the driver's seat and drove the kombi?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct, he was the driver of the kombi, he was alone in the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the way you had given your evidence, it had not given us that impression, but you are now saying that he was the driver then, when you saw him?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, you probably will come to assistance if we would like to protect our Translators.  We don't want them to be blamed for wrong translation when they in fact have not done so.
	You speak Sotho, you are sitting next to Mr Selahle, and if you hear that there is a wrong translation, won't you please just bring it to our attention.  Unfortunately I cannot understand what he says because he is not speaking loud enough for me to be able to follow his evidence in Sotho as well as getting the translation in English, but if you really are also of the opinion that there is something wrong with the translation, please bring it to our attention.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.   You were still explaining how Mkhabela was killed.  The Chair has clarified the question of who was the driver of that kombi, it appears that Mkhabela was driving that kombi, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Can you proceed and explain what happened next?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: This kombi was driven by Mkhabela, it drove passed us, it stopped at a distance, it is a taxi, so it was off loading the people.
	The comrades said we have been looking for this person for quite a long time, there he is, what do we do now and I said to them it won't help to go and accost him now, because we do not have guns with us.  Peter said I do have a gun and I said to him, fine, does anyone have a note so that I can go to him and ask for change and the one with the gun would then come and do his work.
	I then left with a R50-00 note that I got from comrade Veli and I went to him and I asked for change.  While he was preparing the change, Peter came and he shot at Mkhabela and we ran off.
	As we were running away, I got arrested.

MR MOHLABA: You are now mentioning the name Peter.  Is Peter one of the people who you have mentioned, that is you have mentioned Lawrence, you have mentioned Mohapi, you have mentioned Tsepo, you have mentioned Joseph, you have mentioned Veli and you mentioned Fanyana and Titus.  Is Peter one of these people?

MR LAX: He mentioned Peter Tsiani Mr Mohlaba.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, thank you Chair.  And after Peter had shot at Mkhabela, what happened next?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We were running away and I got arrested on the same day.