Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-12

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: We used to have some comrades there from Meadowlands by the name of Slovo and the one with Chris Mandela.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't understand now, if you were supposed to get arms for the ANC, did you get arms from ANC members to give to ANC members?  That's not gun running?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That's the way we used to take it, Mrs Chair.

ADV BOSMAN: You were not in a structure of the ANC?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Can you just come again with the question?

ADV BOSMAN: I mean you were not in a particular structure, you told us that you were not in a particular structure?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said we were just obeying the orders.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay and you say you were gun running, is that correct?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That's what because we were involved in the firearms.

ADV BOSMAN: And now you tell us that you got firearms from ANC members to take to other ANC members, is that correct?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And you call that gun running?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day it's going hand to hand because I think so.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, thank you.

MR LAX: Thanks Mr Leopeng, sorry to interrupt in your leading of the witness.

MR LEOPENG: I'm indebted to the Commission.
	Now briefly, just tell this Committee of the incident of the 15th January.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the speaker's mike is not activated.

MR LEOPENG: I beg your pardon.  Mr Plaatjies, very briefly just inform this Committee of the incident on the 15th January 1993.  I beg your pardon, just before the 15th January 1993, what transpired during your so called gun running?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: During the gun running Ashley gave me some information, he told me some cops were - security policemen were looking for me, told me it was two Indian guys.  Shortly after that during that time because on our location I met two Indian guys, I was just panicking because - so we started ...[indistinct] with some other guys, those two Indians ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Please just repeat what you're saying, you're speaking a bit indistinctly I'm afraid and I can't follow what you're saying.  You said that Ashley told you some security policemen were looking for you?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LAX: And this was in connection with the gun running?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That's right.

MR LAX: And then you said something and I didn't hear exactly what you said?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Shortly after that he told me it was two Indian guys, shortly after that two Indians approached me near my house, then we started doubting them with some others.

CHAIRPERSON: How shortly, what do you mean by saying shortly?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I couldn't remember, it was in that week.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it during the same week you were advised by Ashley.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes it was during the same week.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR LEOPENG: What are you referring to when you say you ...[indistinct] with some others, who are these others?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It was people from the local community ...[indistinct] gave instructions.

MR LEOPENG: Who were those people?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It was Hendrick Christian, Tony Naidoo, Phillip Stevens and Neville Williams.

MR LEOPENG: Was Mr Ashley Bashing aware that you abducted these people or before that was he aware that you were going to abduct these people.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes he was aware we were going to abduct these people.

CHAIRPERSON: How was he aware that you were going to abduct these people?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Because that night he left with Mr Marx and Mr Robbie Petersen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: He went to ...[indistinct] because that same Friday he showed me those guys, also I couldn't it's that same because he showed some people, I'm not sure now.

CHAIRPERSON: He showed you?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Identified the persons that he wanted you to abduct.?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Mrs Chair, just come with that question again?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he identify the persons that you subsequently abducted.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I'm not sure now, I think it was during the week when he pointed the Indians out, I'm not sure now but he was aware because the order came ...[indistinct] took them ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, just answer my simple question.  Did Mr Bashing identify the persons that you subsequently abducted?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: No he wasn't there.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand what you are saying.  What pointing out did you allude to in your evidence before I asked this question?  Didn't you say something about him having pointed out the Indians that you abducted?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said I think I am not sure because during the week but he did point some Indians out at a stage, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: He did point out what?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Some Indian guys, as he said those Indians are the security police but I'm not sure what date it could be.

CHAIRPERSON: And where were you when he did the pointing out?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: We were in the ...[indistinct] vicinity.

CHAIRPERSON: And how far were these persons from where you two were?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It's more or less by the robot.

CHAIRPERSON: And are they the same persons that you subsequently abducted?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR LAX: Just before you do, there was one issue you raised, I just don't want to lose it.  You said something about before you abducted them there was something about instructions and I couldn't hear what you were saying.  Just repeat that please?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: The people who were with me I gave them the instructions, Neville Williams, those guys.

MR LAX: So you gave ordinary members of the community instructions to help you abduct these two people, do I understand that right?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR LEOPENG: How was your relationship with these people that you gave instruction to assist you with abducting the two Indian chaps?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Neville Williams, Phillip Stevens, I just know them by seeing about.  Tony Naidoo, I think he was one of the friends of Neville Williams or Phillip Stevens but otherwise Hendrick Christian I know him from school days.

MR LEOPENG: Were all these people that you mentioned also the members of the African National Congress at that time?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes it's possible because now and then I wasn't always with them you see, if they wasn't they wouldn't have been with me at that time, they wouldn't have followed the instructions.

MR LAX: Sorry, say that again?  Did I hear you correctly, did you say if they weren't members of the ANC they wouldn't have followed your instructions, is that what you said?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That is, that's right.

MR LAX: And that's why you assumed they were ANC?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes because at the end of the day I can't speak for them at the end of the day.

MR LAX: Well you have to speak for yourself and that's why you're here and that's why we're asking these questions, trying to understand your evidence.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't your evidence that you gave instructions in their capacity of local members of the community?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, which is something different to which you are now agreeing to, that you gave them instructions because they could have been members of the ANC?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day Mrs Chair, the way we were operating there and people are maybe involved in something, the people just get involved also at the end of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so it wouldn't have mattered whether they were members of the ANC or not?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well that's why it's hard for me to say, that's why I stated in my application they were locals.