Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NORMAN ARENDSE: When you saw the car going up - which is the right way up Station Road towards Groote Schuur, the car was heavy laden and you had already heard the crackling sound?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Not going up no, there was no sounds at all when the car was going up.  The car was going up, nothing happened, they slowed down at our door, the car went up, after the car disappeared - you must regard a very small door, so we can't really see all the way up to Heidelberg Tavern.  The car went past our door and a couple of minutes after that, that's when I heard the first two popping sounds.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now just tell why again, why would you have seen this car - I mean there are many cars going up the one-way I would have thought.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Because the car slowed down in front of our door and pulled off.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So it's purely by chance that you saw this car?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: By chance when I was inside the restaurant - before I heard that popping sound.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So if it's the same car that you saw, then we must assume then that that car turned around at some point?  It first went up against the - with the one-way as it should and then must have come back.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Well, I don't know what the car did but it was definitely coming - when it was shooting at us, it was coming in the opposite direction, in other words against the one-way.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So it must have turned around then if it's the same car that you saw?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: It must have turned.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Or aren't you sure that it's the same car that you saw?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: To me it was the same car, it seems like the same car to me - it was a dark car, it was the same heavy laden car - it seems like the same car to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say it was heavy laden, what do you mean by that?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Well you know, when you load a boot of a car and the car sort of sags and the nose is kind of up in the air, I noticed that the car was - the front of the car was like slightly up in the air like this.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So the first time you saw the car there was - apart from the fact that it was heavy laden and appeared to be loaded if that's what the word means, there was nothing particularly significant about you seeing the car?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, no, not at all.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So you went on with your business and then you heard - you're saying you heard this crackling sound?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Then we heard the popping sounds, first it was like pop, pop like that and then it got like somebody was scratching an exhaust system of the car.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You heard rapid fire?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Or rapid fire.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Are you a gun enthusiast, do you own a gun?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No not really, I keep one for my protection because of the nature of business that I'm in or in fact the nature of business I've been all my life.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The sound that you heard, would it sound like automatic gunfire?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I'd say, I'd say.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And after you'd seen this car, how soon after that did you have to come - did you come out after you heard the popping sound?  Was it minutes after that, seconds?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: At most a minute.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Okay.  What did you then observe?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: When I came outside Benjamin Brodie was standing already outside and I followed him and another waiter Mike came and stood next to me and when I looked up like this the guys were shooting - both sides there were shots being fired, they were shooting still into sort of the direction of the Heidelberg, in other words the car was like ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now this is - now as you come out of  - is it Makados?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Machados.

NORMAN ARENDSE: As you come out of Machados the tavern is like a few metres to your right, you're talking about - is the shop three to four or five metres?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, there's a ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at the photograph you will see it, it's quite a long way.
	Machados is on the corner isn't it?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That's correct, and there's another shop between us and then the Heidelberg Tavern.

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at the photograph of the bundle at number 20 ...[indistinct] - the sign's sticking out.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman, it sounds like you went to the Heidelberg.
	Okay, so the Heidelberg - it's not far from you?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, it's not far.

NORMAN ARENDSE: It's not far.   Was it 10, 15, 20 metres?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I don't know, I can't ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you see these gunmen when you now turned to your right?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: The guy sitting in the back I saw but it wasn't - I can't say it's that person or that person or that person ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, no, I understand.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I know there was something on his head rolled down to here which I assumed was a balaclava at the time, that's all I recall.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And where was the car then when you observed?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: It's about where Mr Prior is standing - where Mr Prior's sitting there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was it not standing right outside the Heidelberg?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: It was already starting to move, it was moving very slowly.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So the car was not right outside the Heidelberg when you saw the gunmen shoot?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: When they were shooting at me?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, when they were shooting at the Heidelberg - when you came out ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: You see the Heidelberg sorry, is about from that corner to that corner, maybe a little bit longer and the car was still in the direction of the Heidelberg yes, because if it was any closer ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now facing the wrong way?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sorry?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now facing the wrong way?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Facing the wrong way.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Coming down.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you remember how many gunmen you saw?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I remember the driver, it I can remember correctly he had glasses on, some sort of glasses on and I remember the guys sitting in the back and I remember a guy sticking - if you look at a motorcar going in this direction, if somebody would stick his head out of the window like this ...[inaudible] the guy with the gun, that's what I remember - not the face.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, was that guy sticking his neck out of the window - the back window, was he shooting?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, he was shooting.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And was he shooting on that side - the car is now ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: He was shooting on the opposite side coming down ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, was he now ...[intervention]

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: He was the opposite side of the guy that was shooting to me - towards us like this.  In fact when the car was coming down they were shooting straight at the Heidelberg Tavern and then when we appeared on the corner, the gun came towards us - they were then a lot closer to us, that's when the shots were fired that came through our door and hit the wall and hit Benny.

NORMAN ARENDSE: But the guy whose neck was out of the window, that was behind the driver was it - on that side?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: On the opposite side.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And was he shooting at the opposite building?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: At the opposite building.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Does that explain or does that help - I'm not sure if it does, but does that help to explain the - I'm just referring to photograph number 23 and 24 of the bundle of photographs Mr Chairman, that that Dulux and those buildings opposite you and Heidelberg?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Correct.