Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: We heard the roaring of cars and we also saw lights and Speelman was still busy pouring the petrol and Jan asked me and said "Charles, don't you have a match" and I said "yes, I do have", and then he said light, for me to light the body, so I did that.

MR RICHARD: So you lit the match that set her on fire?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: Now, at page 36 of the bundle, paragraph 9(4) you say in reply to the question "nature and particulars of the act for which you apply for amnesty"
"... the comrades were in charge of the area at that time and they accused the deceased of killing the parents of their fellow comrade."
	Whose parents did they accuse her of killing?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: July Mtsweni and Speelman Mtsweni's parents.

MR RICHARD: Now lower down you say
"... the deceased and the family were the supporters of Mbokodo which was an opponent of the UDF".
	What is Mbokodo?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, it was so.  She was an enemy of the comrades because they were killing comrades and we were scared that we were going to die one by one.

MR RICHARD: What does the word Mbokodo mean?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Mbokodo is a person like an informer.

CHAIRPERSON: Just read the previous paragraph as well before you go that that one, you say that this was during the violence in the area that was opposing the previous government and Mbokodo, right?  What was Mbokodo, was it an organisation?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, it was an organisation that was fighting comrades.

MR RICHARD: Who ran this organisation?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Mbokodo was run by businessmen and they were also working with whites who owned companies and also there were informers among the Mbokodo informing on different people.

MR RICHARD: How did you know that she was a member of this organisation?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I know her that way.  I am saying that because members of the Mbokodo used to go to her house and they were doing this during the night, they were never there during the day.

MR RICHARD: I think as with the previous case, I will ask the witness to read paragraphs 10(a) and 10(b).  Are you able to read?

CHAIRPERSON: Has he written it?  Just ask him, just lay the basis.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, did you write what I am saying here in paragraphs 10(a) and 10(b), is that your handwriting?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Somebody helped me.

MR RICHARD: Can you read what is written there or shall I read it to you?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Would you please read it for me.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  There is a question which asks "please state the political objective sought to be achieved", your answer there was
"... law and order was achieved.  People should know that the killing of others by means of witchcraft, would not be tolerated.  More specifically when they killed the next-of-kin of the comrades, this affects the soldiers of the liberation struggle."
	And then the next paragraph asks the question "your justification for regarding such  acts, omissions or offences as associated with a political objective?"
	Is the Translator in step with me?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Your answer
"... any person affecting the family of a comrade would make himself/herself potentially target of the comrade.  The family whose children have dedicated themselves, the family whose are members of the UDF, who were fighting for the struggle are always protected by UDF.  No matter who is touching them, we had a slogan that says an injury to one is an injury to all.  Therefore the comrade took a decision after the death of my parents, to avenge their death.  I was arrested before the deceased was killed.  The Police arrested me because of my political activities.  The leadership of the region took the family's decision at a meeting at the Egukhanyeni  Primary School, therefore I request help, forgiveness."
	Do you remember that being written?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, I do remember.

MR RICHARD: The person who helped you to write that, was that a lawyer or if not a lawyer, who was the person who helped you?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: It was a lawyer.

MR RICHARD: And where did the lawyer come to see you?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I think he was from the Minister of Justice.

MR RICHARD: Were you in jail at the time?  Do you remember his or her name?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I think I do remember his name, his last name is Mashishi, I don't remember his first name.

MR RICHARD: Tell me, did he explain the meanings of the questions before you spoke?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, he was explaining to me.

MR RICHARD: Did he suggest what answers you should give or did you just tell him what your answer was after you understood the question?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I was telling him and then he was writing down and later he was reading it to me.

MR RICHARD: So are you happy that what I have read, is what you said and he wrote down?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, it is.

MR RICHARD: Now, my next question then is very straight forward and simple, how do you think that the killing of Emma Mtsweni assisted the ANC struggle for liberation of South Africa?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Emma's death showed that the Youth can manage to develop the country and also the fact that the youth can educate themselves because they were not concentrating on school, they were concentrating on crimes and stealing goods from other people.

MR RICHARD: Now, there on the side of the mountain, did you see any ANC leaders or UDF leaders?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: No, there were no UDF members, there were ANC members.

MR RICHARD: Did any of them give any instructions?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: What they said was that a witch is someone to be burnt.

MR RICHARD: What was your reaction to that instruction, did you agree with it or disagree with it?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I agreed with that.

MR RICHARD: Who were those leaders who gave those instructions?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Skosh and others, and I couldn't see others properly, but these ones were close by.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just whilst you are mentioning names, what about Mashiane whose name you mentioned at page 46?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Mashiane is a chief in Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: Where was Mashiane that day, that night?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: When this happened, it was after a meeting which I arrived just after it had finished.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, are you going to ask him a question on something else?

MR RICHARD: Go ahead please.

ADV SANDI: Okay.  Mashiane, was he a member of the ANC because that is what you say at page 46?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Mashiane was working hand in hand with the chief Mabhoko.  He knew about the meeting.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but is it correct that he gave an order as an ANC leader?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: The saying that a witch is someone to be killed, an impimpi to be killed ...

MR RICHARD: May I ask you this question?  In the bundle there are a number of applications for amnesty, the first one which ends at page 37 was signed by you in Pretoria on the 21st of November 1996 and then later on, at pages 38 to 41 we have another one, signed on the 6th of May 1996 and then on page  42 through to 48, we have another one signed on the 9th of October 1996.
	Why did you complete so many application forms?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I received forms, they were in my name.

MR RICHARD: Who brought those forms to you?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: They were posted to the prison.

MR RICHARD: You take the one, November 1996, did you tell Mr Mashishi that you had completed other forms?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, I did.  I explained to him that I had already filled other application forms and I had already sent them.

MR RICHARD: How did Mr Mashishi come to see you, did you ask him to come or did he come without any arrangements, did somebody send him to you?