Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I know that I was with you at the door.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, we stood at the door talking to each other, but you will recall that I didn't know that you were outside, I was in a meeting.  So you actually came to call me out of the meeting, you were standing partially in the hall or perhaps in the threshold of the door and you called me out, isn't that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, you were at the door and I called you.  The door before you get to the seating which was there.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but do you understand that I wouldn't have stood at the door waiting for someone, because we were busy with a meeting.  So it is my recollection that we sat there chatting and you approached and you called me out.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I disagree, I found you at the door.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it possible that your memory has failed you in this regard?  I will not use this against you.  Is it possible that your memory may have failed you somewhat in that regard?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know, all I know is that I spoke to you in the doorway.

MR WILLIAMS: Very well.  Gakkie, is it true that the place in the hall where the youth physically sat and conducted their meetings was probably a metre or two away from the place where you put the bomb?  Is that correct, or do you not know?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I don't know on which side of the hall the meeting was held.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but I put it to you that it was probably a metre or two, in light of evidence that we have heard, and the position of the bomb and our position where we sat that evening indeed we were a few metres away from where the bomb was planted.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know if you were in the boardroom or if you were in one of the offices or wherever.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Williams, if I could just ask a question on this.
	When you went in earlier that day with the bag which contained the bomb and you put it in the hall, you said you put it in the hall near the corner, were there chairs in the hall?  You said nobody was in the hall, but were there chairs in the hall, or was it empty?

ISGAK HARDIEN: There were chairs along the walls, not for people to sit on, they were stacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something.
	It just struck me, when you say you met him at the door, according to your recollection, which door was that?  Was it the back door of the building, was it the door of the hall, was it the entrance ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: The front one.

MR LAX: The front door?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mm.

CHAIRPERSON: That's Springbok Road.

MR LAX: So you walked all the way round the building and you came into the front door?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR LAX: Sorry, my mike was off, can I just repeat the question for the record.

ISGAK HARDIEN: If you are at the back you could go round via Joseph Stone to get to the entrance, because Joseph Stone's yard is adjacent to the premises, so it wasn't necessary to walk all the way round and I could just go through the fence to get to the back.

MR LAX: But in essence you'd have to walk around the building to get in through that entrance?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I didn't go around, I used Joseph Stone's yard, because then I was right by the gate.

MR LAX: Mr Hardien you didn't walk through the brick walls that the building's made up of, you walked around the walls to the front.  We've been there, we know what it looks like.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: And then it was the front entrance, that first entrance where the sign that says Early Learning Centre is on the wall.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.
	Gakkie, the time that you and I had our conversation was approximately ten to eight that evening.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot confirm the time, I didn't have a watch on me.

MR WILLIAMS: And if you wanted to speak to any of the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement that evening, who would you have wanted to speak to?  Would you have preferred to speak with me or any of the other members?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I went to you especially for a reason.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you came to me specifically?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Then how did it occur that I happened to be at the doorway?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know.

MR WILLIAMS: Perhaps you cannot recall what took place that evening, but isn't it true that you called me out of the meeting because you wanted to speak to me specifically?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, when I arrived and wanted to open the door you were at the door already.

MR WILLIAMS: Very well.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Remember I have to go through the gate before I can get to the door to gain access to the hall, there are two doors before you get to the hall, there's a small lounge there.

MR WILLIAMS: The evidence of the other applicants was that you said to Slang and them that all the managerial members were in the hall, did you convey that to them?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words, wasn't the purpose to determine whether or not members of the Kewtown Youth Movement were in the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Please put your question again.

MR WILLIAMS: Was the purpose why Slang and them sent you in not to determine who was in the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr van Zyl told me to ensure that all the people had left and I had to see whether all of them had left.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words the only way to determine that everyone had left the building was to enter the building to see if there was still anyone there, isn't that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: But Mr Williams, long before they were to detonate the bomb I had to make sure that the people were leaving and I had to ensure that everyone had left.

MR WILLIAMS: But Gakkie, at the point where you and I spoke, had everyone left the building, or were there still people in the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Some of the people walked out and I came to see you because I wanted to tell you something.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, we will come to that in a moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you actually go into the building after Mr van Zyl had told you to go and check the people were gone?  Did you actually yourself physically go into the Early Learning Centre and look into the hall where you had placed the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I went in, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you look into the hall where you had put the bomb?  This is the night after you went to check and see whether the people had left.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you see in the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: There weren't any people inside.  That was the first time that I went to check.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was that before you met Mr Williams or afterwards?  At the door.

ISGAK HARDIEN: It was subsequent.  I'm not certain, I think I went to check three times.  There were people coming out and walking off and I said to Mr van Zyl: "It seems to me as if there is nobody there."

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know that the soccer club was there in the premises?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.
	Gakkie, we are referring to the stage where you and I had a conversation.  At that stage the youth were still busy with a meeting in the hall, is that correct?

MR LAX: Can I just check something before he answers.
	Did you speak to Mr Williams more than once that night?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I didn't hear your question.

MR LAX: Did you see Mr Williams more than one time that evening?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR LAX: Only that one time?  Please ask your question again because I just wanted to clarify that there wasn't any confusion about which occasion to you.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, when you and I spoke the rest of the Kewtown Youth Movement members were inside the hall and they were still busy with a meeting and I'm saying this because some of the members were still coming out, Glen and them, and they wanted to scold you, do you recall that?