Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

LAURENS MBATHA: I cannot specifically say to which particular individuals, at that level, but what I remembered, as a command structure, we use to have meetings that we called the MDM had to be briefed, where at that stage, actually, we would, actually, give them a summary of the briefing that is taking place in the province and ability that could be expected from our side.  With the continuity of this assaults taking place, at a very rapid place, along the belt that I have referred to, the Kuruman Jonkempwa, the coming up of weapons, it actually brought a very serious element of insecurity, but now one, I am sorry, again, I should say, you cannot say, one is to read it, it is coming up, but understanding the sensitivity of the matter, you could not go back to the leadership and say this is what I am planning to do, because at that stage it was a different situation.  By virtue of telling them you are busy implicating them in the matter.
	So, I strictly had to adhere to the security rules, to my understanding, that I keep this thing to myself and this is my initiative.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, this very serious situation that you identified that was building up, did you convey this to your command structure at headquarters?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, it is no.

PROF DE KOKER: So, you did not inform your seniors of this very serious situation that was developing, according to you?

LAURENS MBATHA: I did inform them.

PROF DE KOKER: How did you inform them?

LAURENS MBATHA: In a form of my monthly reports.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you receive any instructions from them as to your actions?

LAURENS MBATHA: No.

PROF DE KOKER: If the situation was so serious, would you then not have expected instructions from them?

LAURENS MBATHA: To be appointed as a Commander you need to, you certainly need to have a certain ability, because of your experience and of your knowledge.  You cannot put in a person that you know totally is inexperienced and does not possess the knowledge, because that type of person has a certain authority invested in him.  Hence, those members under you, when you command there, it is because of there is a certain authority that you exercise that is being vested that way.  That is what is defined as a Commander.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, therefore, according to you, you deemed the situation serious enough for you to breach the National Peace Accord on behalf of your organisation, but without informing your seniors and without informing the  leadership of the ANC, who committed them and your organisation to the National Peace Accord.

LAURENS MBATHA: Initially, it is what I came up, the reflection of the abnormality came up as the mass action was introduced, came up when operational, Operation Barcelona came into existence.  It was clear, at that stage, that things are not going as they were expected, because if the situation was normal by then, I do not even think that the mass action, that was instituted at that level, was going to be necessary.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, you have outlined for us the importance and the qualities of a Commander of Umkhonto we Sizwe in the Northern Cape.  If this action was so important and so crucial and the situation so tense, why did you not carry it out yourself?

LAURENS MBATHA: I have members who were working under me and one of my tasks is to execute those orders, to make them execute my orders.  I give them orders.

PROF DE KOKER: So you only instructed others, you never performed the, such acts yourself?

LAURENS MBATHA: By virtue of preparing people and training them, it is part of my involvement, because I must supervise that area strongly.

PROF DE KOKER: What was your role during the march?

LAURENS MBATHA: I was also part of the marchers.

PROF DE KOKER: Were you present when the hand grenade exploded?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you give any sign to Mr Smiles that the hand grenade should be thrown?

LAURENS MBATHA: The signal, within my aim, was as the members move away, because I was standing in front and he was standing behind me, when the members are away, he knew it already, that was the time to throw that hand grenade in.

PROF DE KOKER: So, you ascertained the correct time, you gave him the sign to throw the grenade?

LAURENS MBATHA: That was, that is, actually, sign that I have just mentioned.

ADV DE JAGER: I think there may be a misunderstanding.  I do not understand him to say I have been watching the people and then I have given a sign.  I understand him to say, and I would like to be corrected if I am wrong, that you, before going there you, actually, told him when you see the people moving away, that would be the sign for you.  I will not give you a sign, but when you see the people moving away (...indistinct).

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps you did not hear me.  I do not know whether (...indistinct).  So then, at the explosion itself, you did not give a sign there?

LAURENS MBATHA: No.

PROF DE KOKER: Could you, perhaps, repeat again where were you standing at that moment?

LAURENS MBATHA: I was standing right in front.  I think with three to four people inbetween from where Sipho was standing.  This is where I was standing, facing directly towards the door.

PROF DE KOKER: Did anyone else know about the hand grenade and the attack that you planned?

LAURENS MBATHA: No.

PROF DE KOKER: So, only you and Mr Smiles knew about this?

ADV DE JAGER: You said you were standing three to four people away from where Sipho was standing?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Not from where Smiles was standing?

LAURENS MBATHA: Smiles was standing behind me, behind the crowd.

ADV DE JAGER: And you were standing three to four people away from Sipho?  That is Mbakwe?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.  What I am trying to say is in front, it was in a row as we were standing in front.  I was the fourth person from him facing towards the entrance of the building.

ADV DE JAGER: Kindly explain to me why you bring in Sipho now, because we are talking about Mr Smiles?

LAURENS MBATHA: Smiles was standing ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: (...Indistinct) the person who would throw the hand grenade, how far you were away from the person who would throw the hand grenade?

LAURENS MBATHA: Smiles was behind me.  I cannot exactly say his position where he was.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You could not see Smiles from where you were standing?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, I was in front.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You could only see Sipho?

LAURENS MBATHA: And the rest who were next to me.

PROF DE KOKER: Regarding the sign, if I may draw the attention of the Committee to page 40 of the thicker bundle of documentation, about two-thirds down the page.  This, again, is the evidence by Mr Smiles delivered under oath to the Human Rights Violations Committee.
"But you see ...",
that is just about 60% in the page,
"But you see I have no experience of this type of thing and when we went up it was all right and when we got there the petitions were handed over, the first petition, the second petition and the third petition.
		When it was time to hand over the third petition then there was a sign that I must throw this grenade and he laid down at the same time so when I threw it I was weak.  I had had no experience of this type of thing."
I will end it there.  According to this statement, Major Mbatha, there was a sign and the person who then gave the sign laid down at the same time, fell down on the ground.  Who could this person have been?

LAURENS MBATHA: I think the member can only respond to that.

PROF DE KOKER: Let me put this to you, that it was according to your evidence certainly not you?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: You gave no sign, you did not throw yourself down on the ground when the grenade was launched?

LAURENS MBATHA: The member can best explain.

PROF DE KOKER: But, according to you, you and the member were the only people who knew about this attack?