Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, my eyes were not at him.  At that time.

MR KNIGHT: And then he jumped out of the window?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR KNIGHT: What happened then?  Who grabbed him by the legs?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR KNIGHT: Who grabbed him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Sorry?

MR KNIGHT: Who grabbed the deceased by the legs?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Myself.  I grabbed him by the leg.

MR KNIGHT: And Mr Shabalala as well?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Mr Shabalala was inside the kombi at that time but he managed to jump out of the kombi very fast and grabbed him outside the kombi.

MR KNIGHT: Who grabbed him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Shabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: Shabalala only grabbed the deceased once the deceased was outside of the kombi?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Outside of the kombi, yes.

MR KNIGHT: Mr Shabalala has a different recollection of that and that is basically that there was no struggle with him after he had got out of the vehicle for the simple reason that the vehicle was still moving at the time that he managed to alight from the vehicle exiting through the window and by the time the vehicle had stopped he, the deceased was running away from the vehicle and Mr Shabalala will further state that he had to open the sliding door from the outside and it was at that stage that he joined Captain Moss in the pursuit of the deceased and Captain Moss had already started shooting.  What is your comment on that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Maybe his memory is not good.  Because it was just as I'm saying.

MR KNIGHT: Well could you describe if Mr Shabalala had a struggle with the deceased, how was it that the deceased managed to escape?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: They struggled, I don't know, how can I put it, because Shabalala was, grabbed him then Batandwa tried to free himself from him and he managed to free himself and ran away.

MR KNIGHT: And who then commenced shooting?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Sorry?

MR KNIGHT: Who commenced the shooting?  Who was the first person to start shooting?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was Shabalala.

MR KNIGHT: And Captain Moss?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: And Braam Moss.

MR KNIGHT: And where was Moss at this stage?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: They were chasing him.

MR KNIGHT: Because do you remember what Braam Moss looked like?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, he was a hefty man.

MR KNIGHT: He couldn't run very fast?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He couldn't run very fast but it was a short distance.

MR KNIGHT: Because Mr Shabalala will further state that when he alighted, managed to get out of the vehicle that it was Captain Moss who had alighted first, had managed to get out first and had commenced shooting and it was only he that started shooting at a later stage.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The man who came out first was Shabalala.  Braam Moss came out later and as I have said that, they ran around the house and then when they came around the front corner, Braam Moss were at the back.

MR KNIGHT: Now with regard to the shooting, Mr Shabalala will also say that when he commenced firing he was standing just to the side of the vehicle that he had alighted from and that you were at that stage standing to his side and that as he commenced firing, his recollection was that he could hear you firing as well?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can recall clearly that I was inside the kombi at that time.

MR KNIGHT: Now when the deceased fell, your evidence in chief as I understand it was that Mr Shabalala in fact re-loaded after having, well used up all of the rounds of ammunition in his one magazine, then re-loaded and started shooting again?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR KNIGHT: Now Mr Shabalala disputes this.  He says that he didn't have a spare magazine.  What is your comment on that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I saw him taking off the first one and putting in the second one.

MR KNIGHT: How many shots would you say were shot in total?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: By whom?

MR KNIGHT: Well, in total by all of the people shooting at the deceased.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: By each and every one?

MR KNIGHT: Yes, the total amount of shots fired in the incident?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know the number.

MR KNIGHT: If you think about, you said that he then re-loaded his weapon and then at a very short distance or range, shot off a second magazine, was that your evidence?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR KNIGHT: Now, how many bullets would be in a magazine?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: In magazine, hence it was a 9mm?  There should be fifteen rounds in a magazine.

MR KNIGHT: Fifteen rounds?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR KNIGHT: Now, at close range, one would imagine that fifteen rounds would hit their target?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know how many.

CHAIRPERSON: But wait a minute.  But doesn't that depend on how many bullets were in the magazine at the time when it was fired?

MR KNIGHT: Yes, I agree with you Mr Chairman.  The reason why I'm mentioning this is, if one has regard to the post-mortem report, it reflects a total of eight bullets having been, the deceased having had eight bullet wounds and although one doesn't know how many bullets were in the magazines or the one magazine that the accused, one of the accused, that Mr Shabalala had, that it would appear inconsistent that he would only be wounded eight times with regard to the evidence that you are giving of the amount of rounds that must have been shot into him.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As they were running, shooting, running, maybe they missed him with the first shots.  As they were running.  But I don't know.

MR KNIGHT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the state of this post-mortem report.  Is it being handed in as an exhibit, what is the position?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, not by the Applicant.  I would imagine that the exhibit will be entered in to evidence by my colleague who is appearing for the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dukada, is it intended to hand in this post-mortem report?

MR DUKADA: That is correct Mr Chairman, we intend to hand in the report when we are cross examining the witness or leading the evidence from the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Is there any reason why it shouldn't be handed in at this stage?  Is there any objection to this report?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman I have no objection from my side.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: I have no objection, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No objection sir.

CHAIRPERSON: To the extent that Mr Wessels and Mr Machokwene you may have a say in the matter. Do you have any objection to this?

MR MACHOKWENE: No.

MR WESSELS: No objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I see you have seen it, have you?  Yes very well.  The post-mortem report which is Xala CR 92/9/85 will therefore be handed in by consent as Exhibit "A".  Yes thank you Mr Knight, you may continue.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Dandala, what led you to believe that had you not participated, that you might have been killed by the Vlakplaas contingent?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was heard by the people I was going with that if someone doesn't participate in what is being done, they would come back and deal with him or kill him.

MR KNIGHT: Did they specifically, what I'm trying to establish is whether this was your perception of what might or might not have been said or whether it was actually said to you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was said by them.

MR KNIGHT: That they would come and kill you if you didn't assist?  That they would kill you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Not myself.  The person with whom I operating, I mean with whom I'm doing that operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dandala what Mr Knight is endeavouring to find out is, did any one of the individuals in the kombi say to you, if you do not take part in this operation, they will come back and kill you?