Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-16

CHAIRPERSON: But why did you only do that at that stage of your journey, because you've told us that you left from the Rand area, Thokoza, Polla Park area, drove all the way to Bethlehem, in Bethlehem you had time to kill while Ndabeni and Nxala were going about trying to find money, you had nothing to do, why only change the numberplates when you see a vehicle driving towards you and you don't even know what that vehicle is or whose vehicle it is that's coming towards you?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: We were supposed to have changed them.  They told me before to change them but I didn't take notice of that and when we saw the police I then decided to change the number plates but they had told me before to change them.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you - prior to the shooting, when did you last have the bonnet of that vehicle open for purposes of checking the brake fluid or trying to fix the brakes?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: We checked it when we got to the Y-junction(?).  When I realised that there was a problem with the brakes I opened the bonnet, I checked it and then I closed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you when you started driving or at any stage then drive on gravel roads, on farm roads?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Please repeat your question Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time, from the first time that you saw the police and your drive through towards Ficksburg, did you drive on farm roads at all or did you drive on the main tar road the whole time?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: We drove on a tar road to Ficksburg.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you drive on any gravel roads in the Bethlehem district there?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Now is it correct that you were not charged in respect of the attempted murder on Mr Collie, that's the shooting that you've heard your co-applicants describe, Mr Makhura and Mr Fokazi, the shooting of the farmer, Mr Collie?  You were never charged with that, is that correct?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you applying for amnesty in respect of that specific attempted murder count?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: Yes, I made an application because I was combining all this.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you applying for amnesty in respect of that matter when you weren't charged for it?

THOZAMILE CLEMENT NDABENI: I made an application because if we were not there that wouldn't have happened.  The shooting of the farmer wouldn't have happened if we were not there.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR MHLABA: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chair, thanks.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ndabeni, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I would like to ask the Committee to allow me to call Simon Mofokeng.  Simon Mofokeng appears as an applicant in this matter, however we are formally withdrawing the application.  	I would want to ask him to come and clarify to the Committee regarding the aspect of the robbery.
APPLICATION OF FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG FORMALLY WITHDRAWN - APPEARS AS WITNESS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mofokeng, are your names Fusi Simon Mofokeng?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mofokeng, you were a co-accused in the trial in which Wellington Fokazi, Clement Ndabeni and Steven Makhura and others were tried?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: There was a witness called Thabo Bennet Motaung who came to testify in your trial, is that correct?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: You have noted his testimony in Court, do you agree with what he has said in Court?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: Yes, I understood his evidence, that is correct.

MR MHLABA: What he has - okay, let me rather put it this way, after you were found guilty and sent to prison, did you ever have an opportunity of meeting with Bennet Motaung?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: That is correct, he came to me in prison, that was in 1995 in May.  That is where I am now in Kroonstad.  He told me that, I knew about my father's death by him when I was in Kroonstad prison.
	Secondly he told me that he was not prepared to testify in Court and about the lies he told the Court.  It was because of the pressure from the police.  He was harassed and he ran to Qwa Qwa.  Then the police went to his sisters and forced him to fill out the forms so that he should get 75.000, so he must come and contact the police.  	So they wanted the sister to identify where he was.  That is why he was pressured to come and testify in Court against me.

MR MHLABA: Are you saying in other words that the testimony which was tendered in Court was a fabrication?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: That is correct, I would say that because I knew nothing about what he said in Court and I was surprised.  When he was at Kroonstad at the identified parade he did not say that.  It was for the first time that I learnt about what he said in Court.  Even during that time I tried to talk to him.  I'm related to him though not deeply.  I wanted to talk with him in Court but I was begged by the police not to do so, but you could see that he was confused.   After he said those lies then I wanted to find out where he got that information from.

MR MHLABA: This subsequent confession by him that he fabricated this story and the pressure which was exerted on him by the police, was it ever reduced to writing, did he give you anything in writing to that effect or did he volunteer to put it in writing?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: He didn't bring anything in writing.  I wrote to Cape Town to Advocate Moosa about what Motaung has said.  I asked that advocate as to how he can help me to make an appeal against the conviction because I was a co-accused of the people I did not know.  He showed me a paper which should be formulated in an affidavit so that Motaung should come and sign it.
	I had a relative in Bethlehem so I informed that person that that affidavit was in regard to the person who testified in Court against me.  He promised that he would come back after the funeral.  I showed him that document so that I advised him that he should make an affidavit, I've brought an example.  Then he said he'll take that paper to Bethlehem.
	After some time, after two to three weeks I was informed that Thabo was sick in Belenomi Hospital.  I sent my granny's child to the place so that he should fill in that form.  Maybe Motaung has completed that affidavit.  
	So he took his car and went to Bloemfontein.  On that day when he arrived in Bloemfontein, that was the day when Thabo died.

MR MHLABA: Did you know Mandla Wellington Fokazi and Clement ...(end of tape) ... April 1992?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: Not at all, I haven't met them before that day.  I saw them for the first time in Court.

MR MHLABA: Were you ever involved in the planning out of a robbery which Wellington Fokazi, were you ever found together sitting and planning about a robbery with Wellington Fokazi and them?

FUSI SIMON MOFOKENG: There is nowhere in my life where I planned something which was against the law, even Fokazi and others I saw them for the first time in Bethlehem, they were together with my brother-in-law.  I haven't planned anything which was against the law.

MR MHLABA: So in short you are telling this Committee that you were falsely implicated and convicted and subsequently serving a prison term for something which you did not do?