Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MS PATEL: So are you saying that after Mr Cobus shot at you, you ran away and all that you heard after that were shots firing

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes he shot and I ran away and the others ran away trying to be at the right spot to escape the bullets, to escape from the bullets.

MS PATEL: Alright, did you see what happened after that, or made you run away subsequent to the first shot being fired?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: After we ran away, we went to the front side and we saw a window and we got in through that window and we went straight to the door that was leading to the kitchen.

MS PATEL: So what happened after you got into the house?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: When we got into the house we realised that there was a passage that was leading to the bedroom where he was in and there was a locked burglar door that was right on this passage so that made it difficult for us to get through to him.

MS PATEL: Okay what happened then?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We found a rope that was in a small cupboard in the house.  We tied it on that burglar as we were trying to pull that burglar door and he was shooting also and others surrounding the house pelting the house with stones trying to disturb him so that he couldn't shoot inside and shoot the people who were trying to pull the rope, the burglar door with the rope.

MS PATEL: Alright, did you manager to open the burglar door?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We tried but we were not successful.

MS PATEL: And what happened after that?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: there was a gas stove, a gas cylinder that was next to the door, we took them and we pointed them to the window of that room where he was and we set it alight and we put papers in and the flames got inside that room because we knew that the fire and the smoke would force him out of the room.

MS PATEL: So was the room alight, you set the room alight that he was in?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We set the gas cylinder alight and we pointed it to the window where he was in, then we lit a stick of match and the gas got inside the window and there was smoke and it became dark in that particular room.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, what do you mean you said it became dark in the room, were the lights on in that room, is that what you mean and that they were then switched off or what?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: The smoke inside the room made it darker.

MS PATEL: Oh, okay, and then what happened?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We realised that we could not get inside.  We thought that the house was burning and we ran away.

MS PATEL: Alright, can you tell me, so which of your co-applicants here today were present with you at Mr Cobus' farm?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: All of us were present.

MS PATEL: Alright, can you recall what each of your other co-applicants did at Mr Cobus' farm?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I cannot remember.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can I now take you to the incident of Mr Pretorius and Mr Senti?  Tell me, Sir, you state ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel, before you go onto the next incident, I see that from the summary of evidence, the court judgement, page no. 2, you say there Mr Cobus died a week later.  Have you been able to lay your hands on a post-mortem report?  What does it say?

MS PATEL: In fact the evidence at the trial was that, if one reads further in the judgement Honourable Committee member that he died of a heart attack and on that basis I think the accused were only found guilty of attempted murder because of the question of ...(indistinct) event.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you.

MS PATEL: You say that you went to Mr Senti's house first because you wanted to know where the farmer's house was, where Mr Pretorius' house was, is that correct?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes we wanted to know the route to the house, the farmer's house and we also wanted to know whether the farmer was in or not.

MS PATEL: Okay, can you recall when Mr Ntonga shot Mr Senti, was the door still open or closed at the time?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: The door was closed.  He had just peeped through the door and he closed the door as he was afraid and saying that he was not going to open for us.  As he was closing the door, a shot was fired.

MS PATEL: Right.  Maybe I must raise that with Mr Ntonga as to why he shot him.  And you say that after that, your intention in going to Mr Pretorius was to get help for Mr Senti who was now being shot by Mr Ntonga?

CHAIRPERSON: No, wasn't he saying that they wanted to lure Mr Pretorius out of the house to get Senti's wife to call him out and come and assist because her husband was injured?  Wasn't it part of his plan to lure him outside?

MS PATEL: Well, maybe we're at cross-purposes Honourable Chairperson, I understood his evidence to mean that they were going to the farmer to get him now to help Mr Senti to be taken to the hospital, he specifically mentioned being taken to the hospital.  If that wasn't his intention then surely that part of his evidence would not - he wouldn't have mentioned the fact of getting Mr Pretorius to take Mr Senti to the hospital?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well that's not my recollection of his evidence.  I'm under the impression that they were not sure where the farmhouse as situated, they went to the workers' quarters, they tried to persuade Mr Senti to open the door, he refused, his wife was trying to persuade him as well to open because these people were saying they were comrades, Senti was insisting not to open, subsequently a shot was fired, he was hit in the hand, he was injured and the wife was taken to the farmer's house to lure him outside on the pretext that he's got to assist the husband who was injured?

MR KINCAID: Mr Chairman, if I may intervene here, my notes with the utmost respect corroborate what Ms Patel's question was but the intention was to request that this Mr Senti be taken to hospital.

ADV SANDI: But clearly, if you take that in the context of the entire evidence, that was not the reason why they had gone to the farmer's house, this was just a trick to get him out of the house, to say that look, a labourer here has got to be taken to a hospital, can you please come out?

MR KINCAID: With respect, I fully agree with your interpretation but the witness said to take him to hospital, that's my note, that's what I wanted to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, just carry on, I just don't want us to hair split, I also don't want us to have witnesses to repeat their evidence which doesn't assist us at all, I would prefer it if you were to focus on things which will assist us.  Let's get to the merits of the application.

MS PATEL: Alright but before I move on to that I might just state that my interpretation of his evidence is in fact also corroborated by his statement to our investigator on page 28.  He states that
"Thereafter we took his wife to accompany us to the farmer to ask him to take the man to hospital."
Sorry Honourable Chairperson, just grant me a moment to check my notes?
	You stated in your evidence yesterday that Mr Senti's house went with you willingly.  However the evidence at the trial was that Mr Senti's wife was compelled by your group to go with her to Mr Pretorius' farm house, what is your comment on that?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We did not force her, we explained to him that he must give us his wife to take us to Mr Pretorius so that we can ask Mr Pretorius to take the men to the hospital.

MS PATEL: Okay.  For the record Honourable Chairperson, the evidence relating to the wife being compelled is on page 2 of the judgement.
	Okay, if your intention was to go Mr Pretorius and get him to help you, why was he then shot?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Who?  Why was he shot?  Who?

MS PATEL: Why was Mr Pretorius shot if your intention was to go there and get help, for him to help you why did you shoot him or why did Mr Ntonga shoot him?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I do not have any idea, perhaps he got a fright when he saw Mr Pretorius coming.