Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've repeated this well-rehearsed story.  All I needed was a 'yes' or 'no'.  All I want to know - listen to my question, all I want to know is that this Flora lady who you killed, did you think she specially gave medicine to the corrupt government officials or all the witches involved in that?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Flora, I've tried to show that she's not the person who killed, she is the daughter-in-law, but I was intending to kill the right person, but people were so many inside, then the people ran away.  Then I didn't know how this person I was intending to kill ran away.  Flora was not a witch ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Just a moment. Who was the witch?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Nyamquamadi Gumani was a witch.

ADV DE JAGER: Flora was the daughter-in-law of the witch?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: She was staying with the witch?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes I can say it like that.

ADV DE JAGER: And you wanted to kill the witch.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So you set fire to the house?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes I sprinkled petrol here in the stoep while the people were inside.

ADV DE JAGER: But then Gumani the witch, she escaped?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes she escaped.

ADV DE JAGER: But her daughter-in-law burned to death?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you before your wife died tried to kill these witches who were supporting the officials?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: It's because I couldn't just go and disturb people not knowing if the person is a witch.  I did that because I happened to experience this problem and then realised that she is responsible to this and she also takes this medicine to the government officials.  Then I decided to kill her thinking that I would have eliminated some of these witches.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you kill that other one who created zombies before your wife died?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: The person responsible for making zombies was (had attempts made on his life) attempted several times even by the youth, but he used to boast and say, "I have people in the bush and I'm like a chief, nobody can do anything to me."  Indeed he happened to die with nobody touching him.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you why you never attempted to do so because you wanted to get rid of these people for political reasons?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: I'm trying to explain that it is very difficult to approach that person.  In the meeting in the chief's kraal people were discussing about him intending to evict him.  He said, "even if you try to evict me I won't go."  And indeed he stayed, he didn't go.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go alone to go and kill this lady who's daughter-in-law died, were you alone or did you go with anybody else or what?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: I was alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you attend any meetings where the position of witches were discussed?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes I used to attend them at the school under the ANC and we used to talk about that but it was not every time because I was in town.  So we used to discuss that when I was back.   But when people were discussing about that, these people don't take this thing seriously.

CHAIRPERSON: All I'm asking you now, those meetings that you say you attended where the position of witches was discussed, was that before or after your wife died?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: That was before she died.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you accept and believe in what was discussed there.

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes I believed in what was discussed there because it was discussed by the entire community.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you go and make an attempt on killing witches before your wife died?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: I was a person who was not around.  I only came back in 1980.  All the time I was in town but I happen to attend a meeting, not every time but only when I'm in town, but I have my family here.  So I used to come during leave time but then I was on pension when these things happened.

MR NDOU: I cannot take this any further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: I have just very briefly Honourable Chairperson.  Sir, is it correct that at the trial evidence was led that when you came to the home of the deceased you came to the door and you enquired after the person that you were looking for, that is Nyamukamadi and as soon as they said to you that she is in the hut, you then said that none of you will come out of this hut tonight.  Do you recall that?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes I still remember that.

MS PATEL: Do you confirm that you said that?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: Yes I agree I did mention that.

MS PATEL: So it didn't really make a difference to you who you killed that night, you were prepared to kill everybody in that hut?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: It's only because when I went there I was angry and I was not prepared to kill anybody.  Now that I arrived there and I make mention of the person I'm looking for, it means that I was strictly looking for Nyamukamadi.

MS PATEL: So it's correct that you were angry, and the reason you went there was for revenge, not so, because you believed that Nyamukamadi was responsible for killing your wife and that was your primary motivation, not so?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: I didn't go there because I was going to revenge, but I was going there to find that - because this lady is responsible for the danger I experienced.

CHAIRPERSON: In actual fact she was responsible as you believe for the death of your wife?

ALFRED KANGALE MATELO: It's really that is true because this person, I went to her.  Sometimes she used to indicate that she knows about this thing herself.  Just for example, one day when her son was on leave, he decided to go back to town and not to stay home while he was on leave saying that he will come back when he's dead.

MS PATEL: I don't believe we're going to take this matter any further Honourable Chairperson and I will merely put it to you Sir that the killing of Flora Gumant(..as per printed matter)  Gumani(?) was not politically motivated.  Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NDOU: Thank you, I've got nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR NDOU: That is all Mr Chairperson, I've got no further witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any witnesses.

MS PATEL: No I don't, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any argument?

MR MUSHASHA: In all honesty I must consider that difficulty is right from the outset, I need to consider it.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you concede that it's difficult to get political links. The probabilities are that it's not political?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five-minute break.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.  The next matter on the roll is number 2 on your list, the applicant's Nemolodi and Mulovetzi.  I believe my learned colleague, Mr Ndou, would like to address you on that matter.

MR NDOU: Thank you Honourable Chairman and Honourable Members.  I've been instructed in the matter of Nemolodi E to withdraw the applicant's application.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is he?  No I'm not calling him, I just want to know if he is ...?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson I believe that would then excuse my - oh no actually not.  Then we have the second applicant - sorry Mr Ndou seems to be indicating.

MR NDOU: No you can proceed.

MS PATEL: Alright thank you Honourable Chairperson, the second applicant Mulovetsi, I have had a discussion with Mr Ndou and he confirms that his client in his testimony to come will be implicating further people that we were not informed of beforehand, so I believe we sit with the same problem.

CHAIRPERSON: On that matter must we postpone sine die?  Is that what you're saying?