Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

MR LYSTER: [Break in recording] ... and we will resume from where we left off yesterday, the evidence from Mr Gcina Mkhize who is still under oath.

BRIAN GCINA MKHIZE: (Still under former oath) (Through Interpreter)

MR LASICH: Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon for interrupting here.  I am Lasich representing the Inkatha Freedom Party.  I just wanted clarity on two aspects.  The first one is your Commission indicated to us that the time limits were fairly constrained as far as this hearing is concerned.  Would there be any scope for latitude in these hearings to extend time, if possible?

MR LYSTER: We obviously, as I've mentioned yesterday and as you have stated that there are strict time constraints,  we don't know how many attorneys or counsel here will want to put rebutting questions or submissions to any of the witnesses and it's a situation which we will have to really deal with fluidly to see how it goes.  At the end of, for example this witness' evidence, we will ask the group present who would - who would feel it necessary to put questions to the witness and we would give some guidelines as to how those questions should be circumscribed, as it were.  Obviously we can't allow extensive cross-examination with regard to credibility.  They should be very specific and precise allegations, rebutting allegations where your client, for example is implicated.  So I can't say at this stage whether we could extend the time and we'll have to really play it by ear, but certainly you will be given an opportunity to make a
 /submission
1A submission or to put questions to the witness.

MR LASICH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The other aspect is, it's not too clear to us what Mr Macadam's status in these proceedings is and further what his role is exactly.  We can see he is leading witnesses.  If you could just indicate precisely what his status is within these proceedings?

MR LYSTER: Well, for want of a better word, he is a leader of evidence as this Commission uses such people in its other committees and he's an employee of the Commission.  He's an advocate and he's familiar with the documentation and it's really to facilitate the process.  The questions that he's asking are certainly, in my view, not leading questions, but he is taking the witnesses through their testimony to assist us and to make sure that we finish this hearing in the time that we've given ourselves.

MR LASICH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  There's just one aspect, I may be mistaken, but I concede Mr Macadam is definitely not asking leading questions, but it seems to us that although the definition of "offensive" doesn't considerably affect the Inkatha Freedom Party's role in this matter, it seems that he is trying to steer the witness towards Howard Varney's definition of "offensive", that was yesterday.  We'd just like that placed on record.  Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mr Lasich.
MR    (?): Mr Chairman, before the proceedings start, I'd just like to put on record that yesterday evening we informed the committee through yourself that we considered bringing an urgent application inter alia relating to the
 /decision
1A decision of Dr Boraine not recusing himself.  My attorney
was informed that reasons are not available at this stage and that the committee wants to take advice.  Furthermore an undertaking was given to us that no evidence will be led today that implicates any of the clients for which we appear and that Dr Boraine won't be sitting after today and furthermore that relating to Howard Varney's documents, with submission, that the Committee has not made a final decision, whether it's going to be a submission, whether he is going to testify and whether he's got the right to cross-examine or not.  I just wish to place that on record.  Thank you.

MR LYSTER: (?)   Thank you, I confirm that.  Could I just also place it on record that my plans were made a very long time ago and that I'm only here for two days, because that is my decision.  Thank you, Mr Macadam.

MR MACADAM: Mr Mkhize, when the Commission adjourned yesterday afternoon, you described to us the training that you received in connection with the RPG7.  Now in dealing with that you've described to us a range of other weaponry which you were trained in during the advanced phase.  Could you proceed to explain to us what training you received in connection with the explosives which you referred to as PE4 and Cortex?

WITNESS:   As I have already explained before, the different types of explosives that we talked about, I don't know whether Your Honour wants me to explain as to how they work.

MR MACADAM: I don't want you to explain how they work.  I want you to explain to us what the aim of training you in these explosives was.  If you can recall that.

WITNESS:   The main aim which they told us was that we are supposed to use

MR MACADAM: /these

MR MACADAM: 1A these arms when fighting against the ANC after we're training, therefore they are going to help us to conquer the ANC.  We were told that we will be given different kinds of firearms as soon as we start our operation.  Briefly I will say the aim was that we should use these arms to conquer the ANC and the communists.

MR MACADAM: Was the purpose in using these arms explained to you?

WITNESS:   There was only one aim, that was to kill, because those are the kind of arms which are normally used to kill.  There isn't any other possible task that we can assign to these arms, except killing.

MR MACADAM: Specifically with firearms that fire bullets, in the advanced phase, what type of firearms were you trained in?

WITNESS:   We're using firearms like RPD, RPK, AK, UZI and other pistols like Tokarev and Makorov and mortars.  Mortars like 81mm and grenade launchers, the 40mm grenade launcher and also the commando mortar.  Those are the few that I can remember.

MR MACADAM: Is there any particular weapon on which, you know, specific emphasis was placed or not?

WITNESS:   There were two firearms which had much emphasis.  These were the ones that we were supposed to use in most cases.  It was the G3 rifle which was Czechoslovakian made and an AK47.

MR MACADAM: Now yesterday you told us that you were also trained in house penetrations.  What exactly did that entail?

WITNESS:  House penetration is normally employed where you intend to kill the target inside the building.  There are so many methods and tactics which are normally used, because it involves more than one person.  There are specific tactics which you use in the vicinity where you have to launch the operation.  For example the one in front, as soon as he or

MR MACADAM: /she