Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

MS MOLOISANE: What information did you have about them?

BONGA KHUMALO: Maybe I should talk about myself as to how I knew them.  When I came back into the country in 1992 as I have explained, that I came back at the time when there was violence between the IFP and the ANC, and when I came back, I did not know who belonged where and what was happening.
	As it is commonly known in the township that everyone would fall within their organisations, but what happened was that when I arrived, I was shown what kind of vehicles the IFP were using and who was who.
	I used to see these vehicles each time when I went to the shops in the morning or during the day, going to the shops, I sued to see these vehicles.  There is one friend of the victims, Meme is the name, I am not quite sure of the surname, and in most instances one would see these people parked with their vehicles there.
	I started suspecting that something was going on, but at the time, the harassment of the community was not common practice.  I mean concerning the involvement of girls, because what was common was that the IFP members used to come to the township, kidnap girls and take them to the hostels.
	At the time it was not a question of kidnapping people, but it was a question of relationships between these girls.

CHAIRPERSON: Without interrupting your evidence in chief, the witness is giving testimony about vehicles, we don't understand which vehicles he is talking about and what they have to do with the incident in question.  If you can just take charge and try and direct him so that we can get evidence that we will be able to better understand and relate to the incident in question.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.  You said, you mentioned a girl by the name of Meme who was a friend to Hapile Nduno and Elsie Mokoena, is that not so?

BONGA KHUMALO: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: And you say this Meme was used to, or rather let me put it this way, you often saw Meme in the company of vehicles being driven by IFP members, is that your evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not the evidence before us.  That is what I want you to clarify.  Ask him what vehicles he is talking of.  There is no evidence who the vehicles belong to.

MS MOLOISANE: To whom did this vehicles belong in which you often saw Meme travelling?

BONGA KHUMALO: We had one prominent leader of the IFP in the township, his name is Gatise Keswa and he had his members.  One person whom I used to see quite often was Oupa Smith.  I don't know with whom he had an affair, but each time I saw these vehicles there, Oupa Smith was part of the group.  Their vehicles were known in the township.  Their Cortina's and their registration numbers for the vehicles, all of these were known.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, now you say this Meme was a friend of Hapile Nduno and Elsie Mokoena, but we are here concerned with the incident of Hapile Nduno and Elsie Mokoena.  Had you ever seen them travelling in those vehicles, or not?

BONGA KHUMALO: What I have said is that that is how I know them.  Each time I saw them, I saw them as a group.  I am referring here to Meme and Hapile and Elsie.

CHAIRPERSON: Doing what Mr Khumalo, may we ascertain because we have not been able to hear you tying Meme and her friends to anything in particular.  You also made a reference to having seen Oupa Smith as being a part of a group that drove the vehicles.
	You have only been able to tell us that one of the prominent IFP members called Gatise, also drove these vehicles.  We however have not heard in relation to what Oupa Smith's name has been mentioned.
	Is it in relation to his association with Gatise, was he also seen driving the cars that were seen being driven by Gatise and were the victims Elsie Mokoena and the deceased, Hapile Nduno seen in the company of any of the drivers of the Gatise group?  Can you just clarify those issues?

BONGA KHUMALO: Madam Chair, with all due respect, for me to be able to respond, I would like to explain the situation in the township as it transpired.  I think that will enable me to answer the question, as to how this girl died.

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

BONGA KHUMALO: What used to happen in the township was that it had become common that these girls were associating with the IFP group.
	I am talking about the people who had left the township for kwaMadala hostel, or the hotel where they were staying, so that it had become difficult for people to go to town to do shopping.
	People who were going to town were harassed.  If a person went to town and known to be associated with an ANC person or a girl, these people would be harassed, so that a very serious hatred developed because people were being assaulted in town and the people were attacked in their homes.
	They were always in the company of girls.  Each time they went to the township, they would not leave the township without having harassed or attacked people.
	We wanted to know how they came to the township and who they were seeing in the township, and we later on got to know who they were seeing in the township.  They were continuing to harass people in the township.  It was okay before the girls disappeared from the township, but later on, that created a very serious problem for the community and that I must say was not an order from the SDU, the ANC or Umkhonto to the effect that the girls must be killed, whoever was associated with Inkatha.
	The situation had become out of control, that is people had decided to take the law into their own hands.  We decided that we would not allow for people to be killed and if I was a member of the IFP and fled to kwaMadala, on coming back to the township, I would talk to the girl, maybe see whatever was happening, because the girl was afraid of me, she would be part of what I was saying, so that I was appointed to be in charge of the IFP, or should I say the Self Defence Unit members in the township.
	They had started this quite a long time ago.

MR LAX: There is some serious translation problems going on here.  We are hearing that if a girl from the township was met by somebody from the IFP and there is something very wrong going there, I am sure it is not right.
	Can you just repeat that piece of your evidence please.  You said you wouldn't allow the situation to happen and you wanted to start defending yourselves.  Carry on from there.

BONGA KHUMALO: My apologies.  What I am saying here is that the organisation ended up getting itself involved in the SDU matters, that was after people had become very angry having started their own Units which did not directly account to the organisation.
	This came about as a result of the fact that the organisation was doing nothing about protecting the people.  That is how we got involved.  What is happening is that I was trying to explain that we would not as an organisation, stand aside and look while people were killed, for the mere reason that they were associating with the IFP.
	In so far as Hapile and her friend is concerned, it is that they were once warned about this.  They apparently did not understand what was happening within the IFP, they were just happy about the fact that they were travelling in vehicles with these people.  They were lashed.  Unfortunately that did not happen and that continued, so that when I arrived, I indicated that I came back in 1992, but I witnessed the situation myself.  They were trafficking with these people, so that I cannot be sure as to whether they were members of the IFP or not, or whether they were just ordinary people who used to receive visits from IFP members, because they were in love or whatever.
	That is what I am saying.

MS MOLOISANE: With regard to Hapile Nduno and Elsie Mokoena, what was the situation concerning these vehicles that were seen driven by Gatise and his friends, or his associates?