Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

ADV MEMANI: I am told that you used to go to these houses with Ngo, Ngo would be pointing these houses out to you.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so at all.  I've never spoken to him and I did not work with him, it's a lie.

ADV MEMANI: I beg your pardon Mr Chair.
	Now I am told again that your house was bombed by MK with a hand grenade.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct, it was in 1980 but I would not say it was done by the MK.

ADV MEMANI: And the reason was that you were following them up.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: M'Lord, you are telling me that is was the MK, I'm glad to hear that those are the people responsible for the bombing of my house.

ADV MEMANI: Now, your office opened to Violent Street.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Which door are you referring to Sir because there are many doors, I do not know which door you're referring to.

ADV MEMANI: Your office door.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: When I opened the door I was going down and then turned to Violent Street.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that your door was in fact opening onto Violent Street.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not true.  You would walk a distance up to that camera man, then there was a main door, then you would turn and then that was Violent Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you estimate that distance?

ADV MEMANI: About 8 metres M'Lord.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: From where I'm sitting to that camera man M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: More than 8, 10.

MR VISSER: I would agree with 10 Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you told us that you were later transferred to Botshabelo.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I said I was transferred from Botshabelo to Bloemfontein, it was a transfer from Botshabelo to Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: When was that?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I started at the beginning of 1986 and the transfer was done the end of 1985.  The beginning of '86 I was here.

ADV MEMANI: When were you second in command, was it Botshabelo or Batu police station?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Botshabelo.

ADV MEMANI: In which year were you second in command there?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I worked in Botshabelo until the end of 1985 and a few years back.

ADV MEMANI: I'm told that during the raid you are the person who was pointing out the houses of the people that ought to be arrested.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: The reason therefore was that you are the person who was based in Botshabelo and they were here in town.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Sir, we were supposed to know our different duties and it was my duty to identify those houses.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't quite understand, you say it was your duty to identify the houses, so did you carry out  your duty and do so?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I say to do a compete job was included, even identifying the person and the house.  The decisions to raid the houses were taken by my seniors.

ADV MEMANI: And during that raid you complied to with your duty to identify people who were sought to be arrested?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: When a raid was conducted the people are already identified, we just go in a group and we will be divided, this group will go to a certain section and this group will go to that other section.

ADV MEMANI: Do you have any difficulty with conceding that you are the person who actually identified the house and the people involved because you were the person who was stationed locally?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I did not point them out, I identified them.  We go out as a group and we do not go the whole group to one place.  I did - I identified in the group where I was working.

ADV MEMANI: And I'm also told that besides identifying the houses and the persons, when the houses were entered, who ought to be arrested, when you arrived at the police station you are also the person who would pick up people for particular types of interrogation.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: It depended who the case was handed over to.  I told you we were four people working there but it was part of my duty.  If you were needed for interrogation I had to go and fetch you.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo was present during that raid?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I have never worked in Ngo's presence, I do not remember or recall or seeing Ngo there.

ADV MEMANI: If I may have a moment M'Lord.  Now, my instructions again are that informers never went to the office.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I did not know there is a person who can answer that question, you used an informer the way you liked.  Some of the informers came to the office but not often.

ADV MEMANI: I'm told that to bring informers to the office would risk their lives because people might see them entering the offices.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: If you take an informer to the office it won't be at daylight because the live of that person would be in my hands.  We took them to the offices at night.

UNKNOWN: Mr Memani, could you assist me?  He left Botshabelo at the end of 1985 so this raid - am I correct in saying, was before the end of 1985?

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that it was before.

UNKNOWN: And we heard evidence that in 1985 Ngo in December attended a conference in Durban so he was still at school, that was before his exposure.

ADV MEMANI: That is so M'Lord.

UNKNOWN: And I think that it should be cleared up some time because this is causing confusion.

ADV MEMANI: I think at the ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: He was still at school and not yet exposed as an informer.

ADV MEMANI: The probability is that Mr Mohapi's dates were not correct because you'll recall that after he was uncovered he went to complete matric, I think in Ladybrand and thereafter he went to join the police force so he could not have been standard 10 or a student here in Botshabelo in 1985.

UNKNOWN: When did  your client do matric?

ADV MEMANI: I don't recall if I have any particular instruction on that aspect.

MR VISSER: Can I try to assist Mr Chairman, just for the sake of assisting and not for the sake of attempting to interrupt but because you're asking the question.
	Mr Chairman, Ngo, according to the evidence became a police informer in 1983.  He was stabbed in 1984.  His trial was completed by 1985. In 1985 he was in Ladybrand.  He completed his matric at the end of 1985.  He joined the police on the 11th of March 1986 and he left for the police college on the 4th of July 1986.  Those are the relevant dates.

CHAIRPERSON: Start again please.

MR VISSER: It's on the record.  I haven't got the page reference but I'll give it to you again.  He became a police informer in 1983, is my information.  He was exposed and stabbed in 1984.  The trial as I understand it, was completed against White Mohapi and others in 1995 at which he had been transferred to Ladybrand to complete his school career.  He completed his matric - am I going too fast?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.

MR VISSER: He completed his matric at the end of 1985.  He joined the police, he was attested as they put it, on the 11th of March 1986 and he entered the Police College at Hammanskraal on the 4th of July 1986.  He passed out at the end of 1986, if we have to go on Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So he entered the police college on the 4th of July.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, he entered on the 4th of July, he passed out at the end of December and he was then placed in Unit 90 from the beginning of 1987.  He left or absconded or whatever on the 18th of July 1988.  He was involved in a motorcar collision on the 20th of July 1988, with Venter's car.  He was officially ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He was?