Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

MR RICHARDS: Unfortunately Sgt Pretorius' death is an issue where my client was involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed - briefly.

MR RICHARDS: I shall.
Sir, in paragraph 15 of your affidavit, you say I can consequently not say that I have any personal knowledge of it.  Oh, sorry, with regard to Fanie Pretorius, I can give no information. I knew him as a member. He was in my office every day. He came to me with papers of some sort every day.  We had to put this up and put that up, I knew him personally, but I cannot say anything about his death, because I was not involved in his death, I was not on the scene.
 However you're entitled to give hearsay evidence before this hearing. Is there anything that you know that you heard at the time?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: At that stage, no, nothing.

MR RICHARDS: The last question is, who listened to the tapes that there were made?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Members who were on my staff listened to the tapes.

MR RICHARDS: Did you read the transcripts?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes, I did, and if something was important I went and listened to it myself. If it was in a strange language I took an interpreter along to interpret to me, to get more clarity.

MR RICHARDS: And were there conversations between Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and the South African Police or the Security Police apparatus?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Not at any stage.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARDS

CHAIRPERSON: Please give your name for the record.

MR MAKANJEE: I am Sanjay Makanjee appearing for the Seipei family.  I would just like to ask you a few questions. If I am correct with what you are saying, the Attorney-General at the time had evidence that would overturn Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's defence in a trial. Is that correct?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I won't directly say that there was direct evidence on the Stompie Seipei incident. There were, however, problems, because she was playing two factions up against each other.

MR MAKANJEE: Let me rephrase that. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela stated in her defence in the trial in which she was charged for the assault and kidnapping Stompie Seipei, that at the time of that incident, she was in Brandfort.  Are you saying that the Attorney-General had information stating that she was not in Brandfort at the time?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: As I have already said, at that stage there was a scope of time and if I remember correctly, your phone - on certain days, certain phones, the tapes of certain phones were taken off. Others went through from Friday night until Monday morning, especially if there weren't many conversations, because the tapes were long and durable.  But from the Friday to the Sunday, there were conversations on her tapes where she spoke.

MR MAKANJEE: In your personal knowledge, who was the person who decided not to use that evidence against Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I would not be able to say.  I just gave the transcriptions to the various units and that was the end of the matter. I never heard of it again.

MR MAKANJEE: Just one last question. Of the 80 or so people whose phones were tapped in Soweto, were there any of the other people who had incriminating evidence that could be used against them and was not?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: As I have already said, there are many, there is a lot of sensitive information, positive, but too sensitive to place, because the whole operation could have been blown by that.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any further questions?

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, if I am next and if I may?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR WAGENER: Mr Bosman, how long did you know Fanie Pretorius?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: From the time he came there until he died.

MR WAGENER: Was that two or three years?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I am not sure how long, but from the beginning he started working at that specific section.

MR WAGENER: And you saw him probably almost on a daily basis?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes, that's correct.

MR WAGENER: Did he in that time ever show any signs of instability or unbalanced actions, conduct?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I thought that he was going to kill himself working at a stage.

MR WAGENER: Are you aware of the fact that he was never ever charged with anything during his police career?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: No, I don't know of that.

MR WAGENER: Are you aware of any case where he disobeyed an instruction or an order?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: No, I do not.

MR WAGENER: And yet, in your statement you said that on that day you knew of the operation but you were not part of it. Am I correct to deduce that you knew of the operation before it started?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes. At a stage in the office they spoke about going out to something.  They went to do something.

MR WAGENER: Is that all the information you have?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Nothing, I don't have any more information than that, sorry.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, if I may come after everybody else, unless there are answers arising out of what he ask, that I may ask again to ask for an indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: Normally the last questions are asked by the Commission, but I do know that Mr Pigou has one final question. Perhaps he should do that in case it affects, and of course Mr Kemp, as well.  Why don't you go ahead, Mr Pigou?

MR PIGOU: Thank you.
 Mr Bosman, are you aware of any recordings or conversations from the Asvat surgery, from Dr Asvat to Mrs Mandela's house during the time period between the end of December 1988 and January 27 1989, the day that Dr Asvat was murdered?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Of his death itself I have no personal knowledge. I can't remember that I know anything, but there were conversations from the house of Mrs Albertina Sisulu, it could be that between her and Mrs Mandela, that happened, or maybe between her and the office, there were conversations.

MR PIGOU: So just to clarify, you do not recall telephone conversations being recorded between Dr Asvat and Mrs Mandela during that time period?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: She did liaise with doctors.

MR PIGOU: Over a period?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Over a period, not on a specific time, but over a period.

MR PIGOU: Just lastly.  With the list of 70 people, or the number of 70 people, would you be prepared to divulge those names or those that you can remember to this Commission. I am not asking you to do that now, but would you be prepared to sit down and write out a list of people whose telephones were tapped and hand that to the Commission?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Those that I do remember I will write down.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
 Mr Bosman, if I understand your evidence correctly, your testimony, then you are the co-ordinator of the tapping of several telephones in the Soweto area during the time.  Until what period, until when did this tapping take place?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairman, I left the tapping unit in the beginning of 1975.  Sorry, I mean 1995.

MR HUGO: If I understand it correctly, then the tapping took place on the tapes being tapped and then being transcribed and you then read it or at least scanned it?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: That's correct.

MR HUGO: So you did then on a daily basis have intimate knowledge of the conversations that took place?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes, that's correct.

MR HUGO: And you also testified that in the process Mr Johannes Mabotha, his name appeared on the tapes at various occasions. Please, can you say to the Commission what was the tone of the conversations when Mr Mabotha's name came up from time to time?