Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: Maybe, Commissioner, because I think it's important as a member of the community in Piet Retief to mention this.  I think we still have a traumatised community in Piet Retief and I would appeal honestly, you know, I respect your position, but I think those people who were involved, you know, with the violence, I think it's important for unity and reconciliation that people must stop this story of trying to hide because it won't help us.  It won't clear.  If people believe that I as Andries Gamede I was involved in violence and that person, because it still persists in Piet Retief, there are people who lost loved ones, I believe that more especially Mr Msibi is a person I know very well.  He's here today.
	Mr Pienaar and Mkhwanazi because you can go to Piet Retief now, they believe that those were the people who created violence in that area.  I think for their benefit I believe very strongly that they can take lawyers.  The system that was there defended them, the courts, the police and everything, they were not prosecuted you know, because of the system that existed, but I think for the interest of the community it will be important that one day maybe in their hearts they must decide which I'm prepared as a leader of the community now that maybe we go back to the community and say, "Sorry, it was part of the conflict.  We had hoped that maybe the Nationalist Party was going to continue to be in power and it didn't happen".  Because continuing trying to say, "No, I will defend, I will have a lawyer", you'll have money.  
	These TRC processes, other people are just making money, lawyers are just making money, but the issues that the communities where I come from, they have been deeply affected.  As I made a mention of that lady who was shot, it was not a question that he was shot, you know, he was led to lie down, that Indian lady and shot through the vagina.  And that people know, it happened.  It was said in court.  So, for people's sake and I'm appealing to everybody, I was not involved with this killing, he knows that, he knows Msibi.  I was not involved with the shooting, but I'm appealing honestly, you know, it doesn't help to protect that I know nothing, I know nothing.  That's all I want to say.  Thank you.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, it's twenty past four.  I know that we're scheduled to sit till half past if not later on some occasions.  The next witness who I would like to call and who involves the applicant Mr Khaba to a large extent has been up until this weekend detained, I understand, in Durban, Natal and the TRC did subpoena him.  We've only been able to speak to him briefly today and I would request that if we could adjourn, it's only ten minutes.  If we could see him and before he's taken to prison and able to start tomorrow with his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Khaba one of those witnesses who are going to sketch a background?

MR BLACK: No, Mr Khaba is one of the applicants, yes.  No, he's applying for a specific offence.  I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Why aren't the applicants being called in order then?

MR BLACK: This order was an order not produced in consultation with us.  What has ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's beside the point.  They are now the order that I ruled, except if they are going to sketch backgrounds. That is the only application made and that was the understanding that I had, that other than that they would be led as they appear in the application.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I can tell you the name of this witness who we want to call is Mr Israel Hlongwane.  He's not an applicant and his evidence will be of a nature of specific acts and not perceptions which were carried out by military trained members of the IFP in Ermelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Who's the person you want to call?

MR BLACK: It's Mr Israel Hlongwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khaba.

MR BLACK: Yes, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the same person?

MR BLACK: No, no, Mr Chairman.  His evidence has a direct bearing on Mr Khaba's evidence and the reason, I've discussed it with a friend, Mr Khaba, you would have noted from his statement, his activities precede the activities which were carried out by Mr Gushu.  The applicant Gushu was in fact called into the area in order to try and stabilise the situation.  So, as far as Khaba is concerned, his involvement in the activities that were taking place and how he changed sides as it were and became active with the ANC is quite important that his evidence gets first presented and then Gushu's evidence and then the proper order as set out.  And Mr Hlongwane, I haven't had an opportunity of having a full consultation with him, but I understand that his evidence as to the activities and his participation in the activities in that area with Mr Khaba is of crucial importance.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, Mr Black, I'm going to adjourn now till tomorrow.  Now, I want to point out that this matter has been postponed on a previous occasion.  From what you tell me, you wouldn't have been prepared at that stage?

MR BLACK: On the previous occasion, Mr Chairman, we were ready to go ahead.  We were ready.  We were the ones who were opposing the postponement.  But Mr Hlongwane ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you could have fooled me in the view of what you're applying for now.

MR BLACK: Well, Mr Hlongwane only came to light during the course of last week, that he was available to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: There were many days during my practice I used to sit till three o'clock in the morning.  We'll adjourn till nine o'clock tomorrow.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS