Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: And then we went to Samuel Kanaga to speak to him, because we could see that he was feeling, I mean, very, he was in bad pain. So we tried to speak to him.  You know, maybe to gather information.  He had something to say, he must tell us, since we are maybe Black like him, but he said to us no, he knows nothing. Then we went back and give them a feedback and say that the guy says he knows nothing.  They came back to tell him that no, he is telling, I mean, nonsense. So he knows something.  Then later as the day goes, maybe by 12 o'clock, it seems that they were now maybe tired.  They said that we must keep on asking Samuel Kanaga, and I could see that his face was started swelling and his legs were now, because of the rope was, the skin was coming off.

UNKNOWN: At that time, by 12 o'clock, was he still hanging on the tree?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: He was still hanging on the tree. So I then came with the suggestion, because I wasn't quite sure, maybe my partner was going to agree with what maybe I was going to say.  I then, something then came to my mind, I said to him you know, maybe to save Samuel Kanaga's life, we must start lying, so that he must just come off that tree, because I considered he was in great pain.  So I then said to him you know, let's just say somebody else at the base, meaning at work, where we are working, he knows something about the money which disappeared in the robbery.  So we must just frame somebody else, you know, to escape from this torture. Then I went - but he didn't agree with me, but after that i left him, I went to Mr Gerber, to tell him that I think he said no, he is telling also lies, he knows about that money which disappeared and also the robbery.

UNKNOWN: So in other words, Julius Khosa did not agree with your scheme?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Not exactly, I cannot say, I did not ask him if maybe he agrees, but that's why I said I take that decision on my own, so even to save this man's life I have got to lie now.  Since I was there as an interpreter, I have got to lie, somewhere, somehow I have got to lie.
	So later me and Julius we went to the car, where we had our own food, which I had bought the first time I went to the shop and started eating, while the deceased was still hanging there by that tree.  After that they said to us no, we must after we finish eating, we must go and check if maybe he is still all right. On arrival I find that the rope has come loose and he was now sitting on the ground.

UNKNOWN: Was he sitting or lying on the ground?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: He was just sitting, but with his hands tied at the back and his legs too.  So I went back and told them that he is now sitting on the ground.  And then Mr Gerber and Johan van Eyck went back again and hang him again.

UNKNOWN: What time was it now?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Something one o'clock.  And I was then instructed further by Mr Gerber that me and Frans Oosthuisen we have got to go to the shop to buy something to drink and maybe some further whisky or brandy by the bottle store.  On our way there it seems maybe Frans Oosthuisen didn't like what has been happening.  Then he starts asking me what do I think, I mean, about this Samuel Kanaga. I said no, let them leave him because it seems that man knows nothing.  And on our way back from that bottle store which is in Cleveland, there was a radio message from other staff of the security department, saying that they have recovered some empty containers by the mine dumps, which means those containers were related to the R60 000,00 which disappeared in the basement, not in the robbery, but it was part of the money which just disappeared.
	So we arrived at the scene, gave them the message that they say no, part of the - the empty containers has been recovered at the mine dump.  Then they started now, in other words, they now wanted to blame Samuel now on the R3,5 million now, since the empty containers has been recovered. That means he knows something about that R3,5, how does those guys enter the basement.

UNKNOWN: And by this, you are referring to the deceased, Samuel?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, exactly.  And then as time goes by it was something past five, correction, just before that Frans Oosthuisen then called me one side again.

UNKNOWN: Who?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Frans Oosthuisen.  He then called me one side.  He further wanted to know what do I think about this guy, if they leave him, is he not going to maybe to report them to the police or maybe to anybody, or to the union.  Then I said no, please leave him.  While they are busy having that discussion, he and Frans Oosthuisen, Mr Gerber then came and it was a big argument between him, Mr Gerber and Frans Oosthuisen. And because of that I then left them, because I could see that they were busy with heated argument. I then decided to leave them.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, I note it is now quarter past 11.  Perhaps apposite time to adjourn for tea?

HASSAN MALL: Very well, we will take the usual short adjournment.
ON RESUMPTION

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, are you ready?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: (Still under oath).

UNKNOWN: (cont): When we took the adjournment, it was at the time when you were still at the spot, the second spot, after you had, went back to Mr Gerber and others to tell them about the alleged activity of the deceased, where you said you actually lied.  Could you continue from there?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Continue.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Then later, that's the time I start having a discussion with Frans Oosthuisen, asking me what do I think about the deceased, Samuel Kanaga. If they leave him, and let him free, is he not going to maybe tell the police or maybe to report them to any maybe union.  Then that's when I said to him no, and while we are busy with that, while we are busy discussing, then Mr Gerber then came and he wanted to know what Frans Oosthuisen was telling me. In other words, he wanted to know the contents of the discussion we are busy having. So and then he further said to Frans Oosthuisen, I am going to put it in Afrikaans "ek het jou lankal gesien jy is 'n`spy' van die hoofkantoor af". (I have suspected for a long time that you are a spy from head office).

UNKNOWN: Did Gerber say this to Oosthuisen?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: To Frans Oosthuisen.  And then at that time I decided to leave them, because they are now having an argument.  Then later Frans Oosthuisen then pull out the firearm, went into something like a mine dump, hill like and fired one shot, only one shot in the direction of the deceased, where the deceased was hanging. Then I screamed. I then screamed saying why is he shooting, because I was worried now, maybe he killed him.  Then I ran in the direction of the deceased where the deceased was hanging. I went to find out he was not hit.  Then they came back, they were standing there by the cars.  They were just drinking.

UNKNOWN: Drinking whilst the deceased was still hanging?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Whilst still hanging.  And then after five o'clock, because as it was towards winter, it was becoming dark now, I then asked them if maybe they can just pardon us so that we can go, me and my partner, Julius.  So they then, Mr Gerber then instructed me and Julius to go and fetch the deceased, where the deceased was hanging.  We arrived there, we untied the rope, and then let the deceased sit on the ground, untied also the ropes on his legs.  The deceased's face was swollen, his eyes were blood red, he was crying of pain, he could not even hardly walk.  So me and Julius, we had to support him to let him walk from where he was hanging, towards the car.
	On arrival at the car we further instructed to let him get into the back of the bakkie, that (indistinct).

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, Sir, could you tell us how far from the tree where he was hanging, were Gerber and Van Eyck sitting?