Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: During this discussion it was decided that it 
would create a problem if it was mentioned that the Ovambo 
Koevoet members shot the smugglers, because at that stage 
there were various rumours that the security police were 
involved in so-called Third Force activities and 
specifically Vlakplaas, by, amongst others, Dirk Coetzee and 
Nofomela.  In other words, the information that came from 
this incident would of course place further pressure on the 
South African Police and the Government.  
	At that stage negotiations were started and there were 
negotiations between the ANC and the PAC and the National 
Party and other such liberation movements. If it came to the 
knowledge that the NP Government was compromised by the 
police, it would make the negotiations difficult.  There was 
then decided that we had to restructure the operation to 
make it seem as if the smugglers were shot by the task force 
members.  The reason for that was that they were not accused 
of being involved in Third Force activities, but because it 
was actually an operational division of the police.   We 
didn't want to embarrass the Government.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, if it had been known that this 
- if this operation came to the fore, would it have been to 
the - would it have been a good thing for the security 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 137

UNKNOWN: police?

UNKNOWN: Definitely.  It would have helped the ANC or 
the PAC, because it would have shown that while they were 
negotiating with the Government of the day, that the police 
were using ex-Koevoet Ovambo members to eliminate some of 
their members.  It would not have been good for the 
Government of the day.

UNKNOWN: Can you go on on page 132, please.

UNKNOWN: I was then ordered by Lieut Chappies Klopper to 
help with the reconstruction of the event, because I have 
had experience at Murder and Robbery.  I did this.  Nobody 
would have believed that weapon smugglers would have sold 
weapons to five white men.  Therefore, the car was taken 
back to the main road. 
	These people were shot in a small double track road and 
we decided that the story would have been that we were 
waiting in the vehicle until the white Cortina came back. 
The informant said this specifically that it would have been 
a Cortina.  We then would follow the white Cortina and we 
would have approached the vehicle from the back.  We would 
also say that we were shot on from the vehicle and that we 
shot, then shot back. It would then be said that the four 
people in the vehicle were killed.  
	In the boot we found various illegal weapons, amongst 
others, AK47 weapons, an RPG7 and also RPK and Makorov 
pistols.  The four bodies were taken out and put in our 
mini-bus.  We had a combi mini-bus so the four bodies were 
put upon, on top of each other in the back and a blanket was 
thrown over them.  The cartridges were picked up and we then 
left them.   We took the empty cartridges to the road and 
left them there.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 138

UNKNOWN: We then went to Schoemaas with the four bodies.  We 
didn't go into Schoemaas, but we only hooted at the gate and 
they came.  They knew that we would find them, see them in a 
house at the back of Schoemaas.  We waited for Willie Nortje 
and Chappies Klopper to join us there.
	While we were waiting somebody, I can't remember who, 
made the remark in a joke that one is still living.  These 
bodies were put one upon the other.  There was a blanket 
over them. It was very dark.  We stopped next to the house. 
I took out my pistol and shot at one of the bodies. It must 
have been the top body.  It was dark and I could not see. I 
could not see who I shot or where I shot that person, 
although I hit the body. I don't know exactly where.  At 
that stage I was certain that all of them were dead.  
	My actions there I can describe as very tense and 
drunk, irrational, something I would not normally have done. 
I was so frustrated and angry at these people who brought in 
the weapons, still while we were negotiating - while there 
were negotiations going on.  I was very drunk and angry and 
frustrated. I did this.
	The shot I fired did not cause any injury or death. I 
was under the influence of liquor. I would not have done 
this under normal circumstances.  The bodies were then taken 
to the mortuary in Komatipoort.  The bodies were taken to 
the mortuary.  A dossier was opened. I then made an 
affidavit on this, which was not a true and correct 
explanation of the event.  It was done for the reasons 
above.

UNKNOWN: The specific reasons you mention here, are 
these the reasons you also testified about just now?  The 
reasons about the fixing of the scene?
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 139

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Were these the reasons relating to the 
problems of the information being made known?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you please page to 135.  Are these
the names of two persons involved?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's right.  The other two we you could 
not identify.

UNKNOWN: The political motivation and general 
motivation from page 136 up to 140 and on 141, the second 
paragraph, you want to change something.  What do you want 
to remedy there?

UNKNOWN: In the third line.  The original operation was 
- I want to take the word "moontlik" (possibly) out, weapons 
and in the "in" must be "to".

UNKNOWN: And on the next page 142, at the bottom, 
you say in whose, on whose orders you acted?

UNKNOWN: I acted on the orders of Chappies Klopper and 
Willie Nortje.  They gave me the orders and therefore I 
believed that Eugene de Kock would have approved these 
orders, because I knew that Willie Nortje called De Kock 
before we went out to go and remedy the scene.

UNKNOWN: And then on the next page you said that the 
prosecution took place in the Supreme Court.  You also have 
a copy of the - the case is still hanging, in any case.  Oh, 
sorry, of the charge sheet.  A copy of the charge sheet has 
been attached.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I see the charge sheet was 
never attached. It is in my possession if the Committee 
would want a copy thereof.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 140

HASSAN MALL: Does the charge sheet give the names of all 
four people who had been killed?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, perhaps I will have a look, I 
have it in my possession.  If the cross-examination can go 
on, I will look for it and I will give you an indication.  I 
don't think so, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you would 
like to put to this witness?

UNKNOWN: I don't have questions, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: You have referred to these persons who are 
bringing the arms in as smugglers, is that right?

UNKNOWN: That's correct, Mr Chair, smugglers of the 
liberation movements.

HASSAN MALL: I want to know why you say they were smugglers 
of the liberation movements, what proof is there that they 
were smuggling for the liberation movement and were not 
people who were merely selling arms to the highest bidder?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I know that some of these people we 
questioned in the past, said that these weapons were going 
to Natal for attacks on Inkatha, and people were arrested on 
the East Rand who had of these weapons in their possession. 
 They, during questioning, said that they give it to the 
liberation movements. I did not speak to these specific 
four, but I believe it was concerning this matter.

HASSAN MALL: They may be lying of course, they may be 
running a business, selling arms to people who want to buy 
them, to ordinary criminals?

UNKNOWN: That is possible, Mr Chairman, some of these 
people were also found guilty in different cases, but it is 
possible.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

JUDGE WILSON: 141

JUDGE WILSON: Found guilty of what?

UNKNOWN: Possession of weapons and selling weapons.