Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know what exactly was in the file, but  the involvement as it was conveyed to us of Mr Evans in the ECC etc, that would have been indicated there.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Okay, where does that document come from?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: From the co-ordinator.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Where does the co-ordinator get the document?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: From CCB Intelligence structure.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But Mr van Zyl says the CCB has no intelligence gathering capability of its own, that wasn't the function of the CCB.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Who said so?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: He can't say that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you saying that there was an intelligence gathering unit attached to the CCB?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And that was the source of the information in your files?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Not National Intelligence or Military Intelligence, or the Security Branch?

CHAIRPERSON: Or Special Forces?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Or Special Forces Intelligence?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That information as far as I'm concerned, came from our Intelligence structure at the CCB.  Where his contact with the other Intelligence structures were and how he verified it, I wouldn't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, I've seen in other matters, these documents have got a big "Secret" on it and then it gives you the details of who the "bron" is, its got all sorts of detail in it.  Those weren't the kind of documents you had?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't remember, it might be.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever see a photograph of Mr Evans?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Would Mr Maree have had a photograph, or Mr ...

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think...

CHAIRPERSON: Or Mr Peaches Gordon?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, he wouldn't have had but I assume that the co-ordinator who came with the information would have built up such visual material which he could show to the operator.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you speak to Peaches when he came?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I never spoke to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, thank you.  Now I think what all of us here are trying to ascertain is, are you claiming that you were a professional operation?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Not at the stage, well not initially, not in the beginning stages, we were still busy establishing ourselves and then it ended, so we didn't really ever have the opportunity to prove ourselves as a professional unit or to define ourselves as professionals after only seven or eight months worth of activity.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if, in that context it might have been possible that mistakes were being made about the selection of targets, trying to iron out the teething problems?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: There might have been, but not as far as I'm aware.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Because what is quite remarkable about, and striking about your evidence is that you are, you were in charge of Region 6, one would have expected that when you came to give evidence here about why a particular person had been selected as a target, you would have been fully on top of the details in your capacity as Regional Manager.  One would have expected that you would have said: "There was a file, the file contained reports from all sorts of sources, we had photographs, we had maps, we had drawings, we had plans."

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Chairperson, I beg your pardon, have you finished?  I would like to try and answer the questions as follows:  In 91 and at a later stage we once again applied for amnesty and then again in 95 when the new legislation came into force, we applied for amnesty.  Today we are in the year 2000, it certainly can't be my mistake, or my fault that we only appear before the Commission at this stage, because there were numerous things, numerous cases which they had to hear first.  Now added to that, everything has sort of faded in one's memory so everybody, whether you want to believe it or not, everyone has already entered into the spirit of true reconciliation, so you - one is actually busy closing the door on one's old life and starting a new life and that's why I suppose today I seem to you to be a person suffering from a degree of Alzheimer's disease, but I must tell you honestly, I will do everything in my power to reveal everything that I know, but the priorities in my life revolve around reconciliation and not to delve back into the past and into all the ugly things.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger, if that is truly your attitude, then you would have no reticence about telling us about all the things that you were involved in, including things outside of the Republic of South Africa, so that you could truly reconcile yourself with your former enemies.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Kahanovitz, you know, this was a decision taken in the Defence Force, the South African National Defence Force and this was endorsed by Mr Joe Modise and the new Government and I acquiesce in that, I'm following that and I'm not talking about foreign operations, but you're trying to insinuate, constantly trying to insinuate that because we don't want to talk about those foreign things, that we were involved in those.  I've told you repeatedly I deny that I took part in any offences abroad.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you suggesting that the Defence Force still exerts some control over what you may and may not say while you're applying for amnesty?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Well that's the policy, the policy of the current dispensation in the Defence Force and no soldier, whether he's an MK or an ex-Security Force member or whatever will talk about foreign operations and that is what I go along with.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you yourself would have been aware from reading the newspapers and watching television that a considerable number of former operatives from the Government side have applied for amnesty in relation to external operations, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Repeat please.

MR KAHANOVITZ: A considerable number of operatives from the Defence Force and the South African Police have applied for amnesty in respect of external operations, whether it's bombings in neighbouring States, the assassinations of the members of the Schoon family, the Slovo family, so on and so forth, are you aware of those?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So on what basis are you suggesting that there's something that stops you, that prevents you from divulging details about external operations in order to apply for amnesty?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: You've mentioned a couple of isolated instances now, but where are the other 40 000 or 50 000?  Why are those not here before the Commission?

CHAIRPERSON: We're getting involved in an argument here, we're getting a little bit side-tracked.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Now as regards the discussion of the target at an "in-huis" or at any stage prior thereto, did you as the Regional Manager have a discretion to say:  "Look, I've heard what is said about such and such a person, but I don't think they're a suitable target for the CCB"?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, I had that discretion.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you would also have a discretion to say:  "Look, we might burn this person's car, but I don't think we should kill them"?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You would have such a discretion?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Now dealing with the Omar project, if you could once again just look at your application, pages 146 and 147, just read the first two paragraphs to yourself.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Ja.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that accurate?

CHAIRPERSON: Just the first two paragraphs.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.  Yes.