Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman my, the next applicant is Director Ramaligela.

CHAIRPERSON: I call a person who's name is on the list here as number four.  Mr Ramaligela do you have any objection to taking the oath.

MR MEYER: If I can just interrupt Mr Chairman, Mr Ramaligela would like to make use of the interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.  Would you put on the device?  	Mr Ramaligela do you have any, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MR RAMALIGELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Director Ramaligela would you just state for the record your current occupation and where do you reside.

MR RAMALIGELA: I am currently working in the Provincial, as a Provincial Inspector. I am residing at Darwana, meanwhile I am based in Pietersburg.

MR MEYER: Are you a member of the South African Police services this stage.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Now, Director is it correct that during 1981 you were a member of the Venda National Force?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: And which branch of the Venda National Force were you with?

MR RAMALIGELA: Security Branch.

MR MEYER: You mean to say the Security Branch of the police department.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Is it correct that you were involved in the investigation of the Sibasa police station that took place in October 1981?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: What was your rank at that stage?

MR RAMALIGELA: I was a Captain.

MR MEYER: Now we already have evidence on record that the police station was attacked on the 26th of October 1981, who originally was in charge of the investigation of that attack?

MR RAMALIGELA: It was Captain Sifuwa who was in charge, I was also personally in charge.

MR MEYER: Is it correct that Warrant Officer Managa and Constable Nesamari was also involved?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: You say that both you and the captain you referred to were in charge.  Just explain to us what you mean by that.

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, all that I want to say is that I just want to present the Chairperson with this information that the late Sifuwa was the one who was quite responsible and I was working under him.

MR MEYER: Was it correct that you were responsible for the arrests of the detainees which are listed also in your statement in paragraph 15, page 62 of the bundle.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Were you involved in the investigation of the attack from the beginning?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Now, it is common cause really that most of the people listed in paragraph 15 were members or employees of the Lutheran Church except for the last two.  How, why were these people arrested and detained?

MR RAMALIGELA: As we were busy investigating we discovered that there was quite a good evidence that these people were responsible in helping in moving or transporting these people who bombed the police station.  And also to take them, convey them to their next destination.

MR MEYER: What information did you have regarding the people listed in 15.6 and 15.7, Mamela and Ravele?

MR RAMALIGELA: 15.6 we discovered that Mr Mamela was one, he was a prosecutor and on the same day that we heard that it was discovered that he went there and he went there to investigate just to see as to how many people were in the police station, the policemen.

MR MEYER: And with regard to Ravele?

MR RAMALIGELA: Mr Ravele started off by saying he personally presented himself to the late Sifuwa and gave him the detonator of a hand grenade and said that he found it from the mountain, from the people who helped him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Meyer?  Are you saying that you knew about Mr Ravele's alleged involvement prior to him being detained by you?  Or this is information which came to light after his arrest and detention?

MR RAMALIGELA: That was before the arrest that we didn't know anything about him.  It was he himself personally who came to us as somebody who was presenting information to us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You say he volunteered this information to the police?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Without having been arrested at all.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was this?

MR RAMALIGELA: That was after the bombing of the police station. As matters were still just like that we heard that on the other side where Ravele stayed there was a gun explosion.  I personally together with Mr Managa went to this man's place.  On arrival we found him and took him from his home towards the office just to prove that he was personally volunteering to work with us.  On questioning him and looking at him we suspected that he could have been the one who was responsible but he denied that he did, we could realise that he had a scar or a mark, a burning mark on the arm.  That was when we wanted to ask further more.  It came to my realisation that it was him who knew exactly where the gun exploded and the mark was a direct evidence of the gun.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did it come to your realisation that he was the one that was involved?  Is that what he volunteered to you?  Is that what you mean when you say he volunteered this information when he had been taken from his home to the police station and was being questioned by you?

MR RAMALIGELA: It was immediately after we had taken him to the police station and we knew that he was ready to help us and he could tell us, lead us into the evidence and we didn't want to interrogate him from his home, because everybody will be able to see that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did you know that he was ready to help you?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well I can't recall vividly because he just showed that he was ready as Mr Mmbengeni he only brought the detonator and he showed that he had that willingness to commit himself to bring that detonator to us.  As such that we could just conclude that he was ready to help us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr Meyer.

MR RAMALIGELA: Immediately after that we realised that he was now, he wasn't ready to co-operate with us and I personally...

MR MEYER: If I can interrupt you Director.  I don't think it is necessary to give us the whole background of Mr Ravele's arrest.  Let's go back to the people of the church.  What was you information regarding the political affiliation or sympathy of these people?