Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-04

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Khotle, if you have regard to page 16 of your application, that is the one you submitted to the Amnesty Committee and you have regard to paragraph 9(a)i, you speak of robbery, murder and shoot out with police at Heilbron.  You see there?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: And at 9(a)ii, you were asked about dates and you give 18 February 1992, 22nd March 1993 and 1993?  You see that?  Now the impression I have is that you are applying at least for three incidents and listening to you I have heard of two in your affidavit?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for the benefit of the Committee, just before he answers Mr Chairperson, if I may chip in on that aspect?  With regard to robbery Mr Chairperson, he has already, that's why he is out, he was granted amnesty on that one, he was done in Bloemfontein so that's why he is applying for the other two.

CHAIRPERSON: So we're just concerned with the murder, that is the Vanderbijlpark incident and the shoot out with the police, that is the Heilbron incident?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson, it was dealt with the first one, robbery, at Bloemfontein hearing.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo because without that explanation I was at a loss.  Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Khotle, if you have a look at paragraph 13 of your affidavit, it says there:
"The commander instructed us to shoot any vehicle whose occupants were settlers."
What was the objective of the shooting?  What did you wish to gain by just shooting at a vehicle?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Settlers were people who stole our land therefore we were supposed to shoot them.

ADV BOSMAN: Was the intention to kill them?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: The order was that we should kill settlers.

ADV BOSMAN: So if you had to clarify that sentence, it would be "the commander instructed us to shoot at the vehicle and kill the occupants"?   Was that the order?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Yes we were going to shoot, that is why there were people who were killed, we were going there to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Advocate Bosman is trying to say, the order was not to shoot at the vehicle, but to shoot at the people inside the vehicle?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And how did you define settlers, was that just any white person?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: A settler is any other person when he arrived at other people's land, he repossessed the land of those people.

ADV BOSMAN: But in terms of your definition in the South African context, was any white person a settler?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Whites were settlers at that time.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV MOTATA: Just to follow up Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Khotle, now just taking it from where my fellow Committee Member spoke of paragraph 13 of your affidavit.  Was it a command that had to emanate from a commander or was this Pan Africanist Congress policy that settlers should be shot at or you had to get a command before you do it from your commander?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Will you please repeat the question sir?

ADV MOTATA: I say - let me rephrase it in this manner - that was it your commander who had to choose the target or the settlers, as I understand you, was that PAC policy that every white person who found himself in this land was a settler?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: All whites were settlers at that time when we were engaged in the armed struggle.

ADV MOTATA: Ja now what I want to know, was that general policy of the Pan Africanist Congress?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Which one sir?

ADV MOTATA: That the whites were settlers and they should be eliminated or you had to wait for a commander in your unit to say shoot those settlers in particular in that vehicle or where your reconnaissance took you to?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: As a soldier I was instructed to shoot any car which is occupied by settlers and the PAC's definition of settlers are those who oppressed the black masses.

ADV MOTATA: But before you could do so, you had to get the instructions from a commander of your unit?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Yes, as a soldier I should wait for an instruction.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khotle on paragraph 13 of your affidavit you said you
"We later learnt that one settler died and others were injured"
The information that I have on the papers is that only one other was injured, not others, so what do you mean by others, what did you learn after the operation?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: I learnt from the papers, I knew that only one person died then I learnt that others were injured, I did not verify as to whether how many were injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then according to the paper cuttings that we have there was only two people in the car.  Do you see more than two people in the car that you shot at?  How many people did you see in the car that you shot at?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: If I'm not mistaken there were three, if I remember well.  I'm not quite sure, maybe there could have been two or three but what I know is that one person died.

CHAIRPERSON: And just for clarity here again, in your affidavit, paragraph 10, who is Solly, what is Solly's name?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: It's Zola Mabala.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?  Zola Mabala.

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Zola Mabala.  M-a-b-a-l-a.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and who is Boysi?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: I only know him by that name, I don't know his full names.

CHAIRPERSON: And then if you go to the Heilbron attack, the last page of your affidavit, who is Muleme?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: It's Washington Mafanya.

CHAIRPERSON: Your co-applicant?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: That is correct, he is present.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever arrested or tried in respect of these two incidents that you've related now?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions?

ADV MOTATA: Before he does Mr Chairperson, may I again come in and refer to page 20?  Before I do so, this operation was in the evening?

CHAIRPERSON: Which one are you talking about?

ADV MOTATA: The shooting of the settlers, the police.
Because I'll tell you why I'm asking that question and will ask for translation into English because I'll read it in Sotho as written.
"On Wednesday on that day when we were at Heilbron, during the night on that Wednesday at 9 o'clock while we were waiting for a police van which was supposed to deliver other policemen who were off duty, it arrived before time or I would say that van took another route.  Whilst we were still in the cemetery before the library building, if I'm not mistaken, we saw then a Corolla which belonged to the police."
	What was the lighting like if you could see the people in the evening what they looked like?  Let's start with the lighting where you were standing to ambush the vehicle which had to deliver police who had knocked off from work?  How clear was it at that time?  I want you to help me, sir.

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: It was at night during that time.

ADV MOTATA: Is that correct?  Maybe 	you have a problem that you are combining these two operations?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: The Boipatong operation happened in the morning when the commander ordered us to shoot any settler who passes there.  The one I'm talking about happened at night.  Those people were police.

ADV MOTATA: June 1993 attack at SAP at Heilbron, when did that one happen, what time of the day?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: It happened at night, sir.