Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That there would be a vehicle coming from Swaziland containing MK members and that at a certain point on the Houtkop road we would take up position and wait for the people.

MR MOERANE: Yes, continue.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That transpired later.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane wants to know what you were told at the briefing session.  You said that you were told that there was going to be infiltration, people would be coming in a vehicle, you'd take up position at a spot.  Was there anything else?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That the people would be armed and that the planning was of such a nature that they would give us a signal should the people be armed, the indicator light would flicker and we reacted upon that.

MR MOERANE: How were you to react to that?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That if Manzini climbed out and ran, we had to open fire on the vehicle and we did that.

MR MOERANE: I see.  So you knew that there was going to be an ambush?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And you were prepared to go along with that?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Had you heard that there was an incident four days before that?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, I heard about it.

MR MOERANE: And had you heard that four ANC members had been killed in that incident?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that's correct.

MR MOERANE: Had you heard that that incident had taken place at the same spot where you were to lie in wait?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That's correct.

MR MOERANE: And had you heard that the first group, the group that came through on the 8th of June, had not been armed?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: No, I never knew that.  I heard about that the other day here.  I never knew about it until the day upon which evidence was given about it.

MR MOERANE: What information did you have?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Simply that the people had been armed and that they had been killed.  I never had any information that they were not armed.

MR MOERANE: And had you been told that the people in the first incident, that's the incident of the 8th June, had shot at the police?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I can no longer recall what the precise information was, I just recall hearing that people had been shot dead.

MR MOERANE: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Sorry Chair, just before you proceed to Ms Lockhat.  Mr van Zweel the question was put to you whether you had knowledge of the first incident, but the time of your knowledge was never specifically mentioned.  Just to have certainty, I assume that you understand that this has to do with your knowledge of the first incident before the second incident took place?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, I heard about the first incident before the second incident took place, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Adv Gcabashe any questions?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before - yes, re-examination, sorry Mr Prinsloo, I forgot.  Do you have any re-examination?

MR PRINSLOO: Briefly.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr van Zweel when you executed orders, did you believe that you were acting in the interests of your country in the execution of your duties?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Adv Gcabashe.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr van Zweel in the statement you made, the one in volume 5, that was used at the inquest, paragraph 8 thereof, you talk about the man coming out of the kombi and that you heard shots from the direction of the kombi.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Is there any reason why you did not mention the fact that a bullet actually hit the surface of the tar between yourself and Rorich as you were approaching the vehicle?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I don't know why I never mentioned it.

ADV GCABASHE: But the statement itself was prepared by you or by Mr Pienaar, just help me again with that.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I cannot say who took the statement because I cannot make out who signed at the bottom.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think what Adv Gcabashe wants confirmed is whether you provided the taker of the statement, the person who had this statement typed out, with the contents contained there or if you were just presented with a written statement for you to sign.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Chairperson, I think I have already stated that I cannot recall how it took place, because this statement was taken quite a while afterwards.  In all honesty I cannot tell you whether the statement had already been prepared or whether I was there when the statement was taken, I really cannot recall.

ADV GCABASHE: But you would agree that mentioning the fact that the bullet struck the tar would have strengthened your version as presented at the inquest?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: One other matter.  Do you know how the deceased got to be shot in the head?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: No, I cannot say.

ADV GCABASHE: Do you remember directing shots at any one of the four specifically in the region of the head and neck?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I shot into the back section of the kombi, I don't know where my bullets hit, whether they hit any of the deceased, it is very difficult for me to say.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: Mr van Zweel, I did not put this to any of the other applicants, but this is something which remains strange to me and that is that you find the people there with their weapons ready to fire and the evidence is that they told the driver not to be afraid, that they would protect him, that everything was fine.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: The only way that I can assist you with that is that everything happened very quickly and that the people didn't have a chance to fire back.  I really cannot tell you why they didn't fire any shots.  What the circumstances were inside the kombi is very difficult for me to say.

MR MALAN: Weren't those guns planted on them?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: No, never.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you given the opportunity to volunteer for this operation or were you just instructed to go along?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: I was given instruction to accompany, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I ask because Mr Deetlefs said that Sgt Manzini was a - volunteered for it.  I was just wondering whether that applied to anybody else in the operation.

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Chairperson, one could probably refuse, I don't know, but I don't think one could refuse if you worked for the state.   If you receive instructions you must execute those instructions.  I don't believe one could refuse.  It is in the interests of the country and in the interest of the South African Police, so I believe that the instructions which I executed were justified.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions arising from questions put by members of the panel.

MR MOERANE: Mr Chairman yes.  It might not arise directly but it relates to the
firing by this person and the reconstruction about a year later.  Mr van Zweel you told the Honourable Committee, that you attended a reconstruction of this event at a later stage?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And I assume that at that reconstruction each one of the people who fired stood at a position where he alleged he was at the time of the shooting?

JAMES EMIEL WILHELM VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.