Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

MR SEMENYA: No, I would only put one question Chairperson.  Mr Mekgwe, I want us to distinguish between two things.
 Whether what you said at the trial in your statement or here, is correct, is one thing, and that is not what I was establishing from you.  Did you say the following words  were the words from Ms Liela Groenewald - if you do not repeat what you said in the Jerry Richardson trial, you will be in trouble, that is the only thing I am trying to establish from you.

PELO MEKGWE: I have said it, yes.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you can step down.
 Ms Groenewald?

MR VALLY: She is just fetching her original file Archbishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Will you please stand to take the oath, but we just want to say thank you for all the work that you have been doing, especially through the night.

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif.

MR VALLY: Ms Groenewald, can you tell us about your interview, sorry, let me just first get clarity on this.  Are you an investigator employed by the Investigative Unit of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes, I am.

MR VALLY: Amongst your tasks are to interview potential witnesses who can enlighten us about the items which fall within the mandate of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: That is correct.

MR VALLY: When you take statements and when you question people, you put to them different versions and you can question them showing previous contradictions?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Do you do this in most cases?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now, let's come to the statement in point.  If you want copies of this, I will let you have it.
 This is the original handwritten statement and this was in your handwriting?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: That is correct.

MR VALLY: You have seen that?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes.

MR VALLY: You initially say and I will read the paragraph again, this is what you have noted rather than say.  Winnie Mandela arrived before the accusations, she was brought a chair to sit down, she took part in questioning us but she did not speak in an aggressive manner.  Winnie left at some stage, I am not sure whether she was part of the assault.
 In that same statement you note further, this wasn't at this stage typed, at the same statement you note further, where Mr Mekgwe was talking about his return from exile.

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: That will be the third last paragraph.

MR VALLY: The third last paragraph, thank you.  I am afraid there is a page missing here, what's happened? Do you have a page under there?  All right, the story I told in court was true, except that I said that I would give further testimony while I knew that I was going away.
 Winnie Mandela was there when I was assaulted.  Now can you give us the context and explain to us why in the same statement noted by you, there is first that statement then the second statement?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes, Mr Mekgwe initially indicated that he could not remember the circumstances of the assault exactly.  I pointed out to Mekgwe that it was a criminal offence to lie under oath, whether in court or to the TRC and at that stage we were already envisaging a public hearing where he would have to give his statement under oath.
 At no stage did I say to him that he would get into trouble if he changed the version that he gave in the trial, I just said that it was a criminal offence to lie under oath, whether in court or to the TRC.  He then changed his version and said Mrs Mandela was indeed present for the assault and before he left, I asked, I told him, look we've got two contradicting versions in the same statement now.  Which version is the correct version, and he indicated that the second version was correct, namely that Mrs Mandela was indeed present for the assault.

MR VALLY: Now, you gave this handwritten statement for typing, is that correct?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: That is correct.

MR VALLY: I want to show you a typed version that I have here, and this is the working copy that I was given.  You say in this very statement, same paragraph, Winnie Mandela arrived before the accusations, she was brought a chair to sit down, she took part in questioning us, but she did not speak in an aggressive manner.  Winnie left at some stage, I am not sure whether she was part of the assault.
 This is the typed version I've got in front of me.   You later on say exactly where it was in the handwritten statement, Winnie Mandela was there when I was assaulted.  I want to show this to you and I can give a copy to my friend, if he doesn't have a copy of this.  But this is a typed version exactly of the handwritten statement.
 So that is an identical version of the handwritten statements?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: That is correct.

MR VALLY: There is subsequently another version which doesn't have the second statement which he says Winnie Mandela was there when I was assaulted.  The first part where it was I am not sure whether she was part of the assault, you have put in Winnie left at some stage, but she was there when I was assaulted.  Can you explain why the second typed version existed?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Vally, can I just interrupt, there is on page 20 of the statement that we have, exactly what you have just said.  Is there another statement?  The working statement that we have in our files and I have conferred with all my colleagues here, on page 20 thereof at the top of the page, it says from page 19.  The story I told in court is true, expect that I said I would give further testimony while I knew I was going away.  Winnie Mandela was there when I was assaulted.
 Now, is that the part you are referring to?

MR VALLY: Yes, Mr Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: ... statement other than the one that we have where this thing that appears on page 20, doesn't in fact appear.

MR VALLY: That is what I want to get clarity from Ms Groenewald on.  You see, the original statement had this two contradictory statements.  That was typed out and given to Mr Semenya and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, we didn't try and hide it.
 I understand that Ms Groenewald then corrected it because of the contradiction and because of what Mr Mekgwe told her?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: That is correctly a correct summary.

MR VALLY: And she then typed out a correct version, but that was also given to them, so both statements were given to them.

MR NTSEBEZA: Maybe let's hear the evidence from the witness.

MR VALLY: Can you explain to us why there are two typed versions, the one setting out both contradictory statements as per the handwritten version and the one which in stead of putting the two contradictory versions, simply says Winnie left at some stage, but she was there when I was assaulted?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes, I didn't actually type the statement the first time myself, I provided the handwritten statement to a secretary in our office who typed it and gave it back to me, the typed version.  That version was made available to a number of people, including the legal team, the panel and Mr Semenya.
 I then corrected as Mr Mekgwe had indicated to me a correction should be made, that his second version was indeed correct.  I corrected it for our working purposes.

MR VALLY: Was a copy of this also given to Mr Semenya?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes.

MR VALLY: So they had all the versions and if there were any attempt of manipulation on our part, would you have given them all the versions?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: There was no attempt at manipulation.

MR VALLY: Thank you, I have no further questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Ms Groenewald, the insinuation has been made that you brought pressure upon Mr Mekgwe to change that statement, did you influence him in any way?