Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, the next amnesty applicant is Mr Christiaan Rorich.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: (sworn states)

MR MALAN: You may be seated.

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Rorich, your application is in Volume 1, page 207 to 209, that is the official form which was signed and attested to by you?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the incident for which you currently appear before this Committee, is Annexure A on page 215 to 217?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then there is Annexure B, which is your political motivation, 218 to 225?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you confirm the content of your application?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, I confirm it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Rorich, you were present when Mr De Kock as well as Mr Deetlefs and Pienaar gave evidence regarding the second incident, which is the incident taking place on the 12th of June 1988?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, I was present.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have applied for that incident and you confirm their evidence where it is of application to you?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well, mention was made that you were contacted with regard to the mini-bus which was used, is that correct?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is entirely correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you explain the circumstances to the Honourable Committee?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Chairperson, on the 12th of June, I was contacted twice by Warrant Officer Pienaar from the Security Branch in Piet Retief.  On the first occasion he asked me whether it was possible for me to have a mini-bus available from my staff at Witbank, who were on the older side and who could be used, and I confirmed this.  Later he contacted me again and told me that he had obtained permission from Middelburg Regional Office, for our mini-bus to be used and that Colonel De Kock from Vlakplaas would be in command of this operation.  Seeing as I was at that stage the Commander of Witbank Security Branch, I took the decision to drive the bus to Piet Retief myself.

MS VAN DER WALT: Might I just interrupt you there, you have mentioned something about Witbank, was that under the Middelburg region?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Piet Retief was also in that very same region?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, in the same region.

MR MALAN: Witbank is also a sub-Branch like Piet Retief?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, Witbank was a Branch in its own right, but Piet Retief was a sub-Branch to Ermelo where I had been previously stationed.

MR MALAN: Witbank was on the same level as Ermelo?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is entirely correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you then went through to Piet Retief.  Did you receive any instructions there?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: I was not involved in the planning, I was not informed about it, I was simply informed what the purpose was behind the operation, namely that the mini-bus was to be used in order to pick up MK members who were going to cross the border into the RSA and that one of the black Detectives from Piet Retief, Manzini, who was also known to me, would  drive the vehicle.  Furthermore that certain signals would be given, namely once he had picked up the people, he would approach where we would have taken up position alongside the road.   I cannot describe it in any other way, other than an acre of death.   This was something that was set up with the result that if the vehicle approached and the lights dimmed, we would know that this was the correct vehicle in the first instance  and in the second instance, he would give us a signal indicating that these persons were armed, by switching on the left indicator light and then the vehicle would have to stop where we were and we would then eliminate the persons, if it was the case that they were armed - but only after Mr Manzini had run back, passed the front side of the bus in our direction, in order to get out of the line of fire.

MS VAN DER WALT: And as the evidence has been put to the Committee previously, this did indeed take place?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, it took place as such with the exception of the fact that Manzini did not stop at the place where he was supposed to stop.  It was quite a distance where we lay in a line.  The way he drove from the Swazi side to Piet Retief, we were on the left side of the road, we took up position there and on both sides of the road, there were plantations.   The vehicle only came to a standstill quite a way after our position, with the result that we had to run forward to the vehicle.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you see as you were running to the vehicle after it had come to a standstill?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: What I can recall is that when the vehicle stopped, I saw Manzini run passed the lights of the kombi.  At that stage, I was on the tar road.  On my left side I can recall there was one of the former witnesses, Mr Van Zweel, then a person was climbing out of the left front door of the kombi and the next moment, I saw the flame of a gun which had been fired and the noise of the firearm sounded to me like that of an AK.  On the tar road, between me and Van Zweel there was also the sound of a bullet.  Immediately within that moment, the shooting ensued and all of us fired and at a stage, lights went on.  This was the light which the former witness, Theron, was holding.  My position at that stage was right at the back of that mini-bus and then Colonel De Kock called for cease fire, upon which everybody ceased fire.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can I just find out from you, the left front door went open and you saw a flame.  From where did you see this flame emerge?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: From the left front door which went open, from which somebody emerged.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you have anything further to do at the scene of the incident, you simply shot, you didn't have anything to do with the bodies?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: No, my task was completed.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you see whether any firearms were in the vehicle which had stopped there?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Certainly yes.   There was an AK47 gun, an AKM at everyone of the bodies.  The order was given to Warrant Officer Pienaar who discharged the weapons and there were two carry bags within which there was a Russian F1 type Eastern Block handgrenade.

MS VAN DER WALT: There is a statement from you in Volume 5, page 50 to 52 Chairperson, you have studied this statement, is that correct?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you signed the statement which was also affirmed under oath?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who took the statement?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: It was Brigadier Van Wyk.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you recall the statement that you made?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes.  The statement that I can recall, if my memory serves me correctly, this statement was already typed and I went to sign it at Middelburg.   I must tell you this now that I was not present with the autopsies which were held after the shooting incident, I also didn't give evidence about it at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: Would that be with the post mortem inquest?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, that is what I am referring to.  And I accept as I recall it correctly, I accepted that certain sentences or aspects were included in this statement regarding the post mortem inquest which had already been completed.

MS VAN DER WALT: May I just take you to the statement, you have studied it, is that correct?

CHRISTIAAN SIEBERT RORICH: Yes, I have just read it thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: On page 50, paragraph 3, it is stated
"... that Major Deetlefs was in command."