Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

WITNESS:   To be trained and become special police.  Those type of police who will get about two weeks' or three weeks' training and come back to help in areas which were affected by violence.

MR MACADAM: The South African Police or KwaZulu Police?

WITNESS:   South African Police.

MR MACADAM: Do you recall exactly in what year that took place, or not?

WITNESS:   I can't remember.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... that took place that they had received this training and had been deployed as special constables.  Did you have any further dealings with the Caprivians?

INTERPRETER: I missed the last part of your question.

MR MACADAM: Did you have any further dealings with the Caprivians once they had been deployed as special constables in the South African Police?

WITNESS:   I was working closely with them.  Even the time when they were SAPs or ZPs, we were always working closely.  They were taking orders from their senior officers and also from me.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... the police to give them any orders at that stage?

MR MACADAM: MR   (?): Excuse me, excuse me.  I don't think the translation came through quickly.  Can you please put that same question again, Chris?

MR MACADAM: Did you hold any official status in the South African Police when you claim that these persons were still working under you?

WITNESS:   No, I wasn't in the Police Force and I never had or I never occupied any position within the police.  I stayed as a Political Commissar during the time when they were ZPs or

MR MACADAM: /specialists,

MR MACADAM: 3A specialists, special police.  I was their Political Commissar all the time.

MR MACADAM: Did you give them any specific orders to do anything during this period?

WITNESS:   Yes, a lot.  As they were police, they knew very well that they have to work under the instructions of the IFP.  For example the killing of people who were UDF members.  They were doing that while they were police and they were not taking instructions from police, they were taking direct - they were taking instructions directly from the IFP.

MR MACADAM: When you say the IFP, were there any specific individuals who gave instructions, or not?

WITNESS:   Specific people within the ... (inaudible) ... different people.

MR MACADAM: And you yourself, did you give any instructions in that regard?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... anybody after you have given such instructions?

WITNESS:   Yes, to M Z Khumalo, always to M Z Khumalo.  I will say we were working very closely, myself and M Z Khumalo.  He couldn't do anything without informing me and I couldn't do the same.

MR MACADAM: And during this - and also, can you estimate for how long this continued, the use of these special constables to kill persons?  Over what period would that have been?

WITNESS:   I'll say it's approximately a year, I don't remember well, because they didn't stay that very long as constables.  There was that conflict and they have to go back to the IFP.

MR MACADAM: Can you recall approximately on how many occasions you would have instructed them to kill persons?

WITNESS:   It's difficult, so many times, I can't count.  I don't

MR MACADAM: /remember

MR MACADAM: 3A remember the exact number.

MR MACADAM: Now can you recall in what areas these special constables operated when they had instructions from you to kill persons?

WITNESS:   At Hammarsdale, Mpumalanga Township, in Pietermaritzburg and other townships around Durban.

MR MACADAM: Now can you recall whether there were any prominent leaders who were killed during this pattern of violence which you described where - by these persons on your instructions?

WITNESS:   Yes, I remember Chief(?) Mlaba(?), Zazi Khuzwayo, Chief Maphumulo, Reggie Hadebe and many others whom I don't remember.  I would like to clarify specifically about Maphumulo and Reggie Hadebe.  They didn't involve only the Caprivians.  They were combined with the BSI(?) of the KwaZulu Police who were under Captain Khanyile.

MR NTSEBEZA: Excuse me.  Can I just confirm that you mentioned also Maphumulo and that can you spell Maphumulo for the record?

WITNESS:  It's M-a-p-h-u-m-u-l-o.

MR MACADAM: And can you just clarify what this BSI is that you described?

WITNESS:   BSI, I would say it's like a special branch of the KwaZulu Police.  Their task is to look over or attack(?) people who were fighting against the IFP, prominent people and they had their own underground operational structures which were similar to the offensive group and it was also a killing kind of a matter.

MR MACADAM: In this whole process of unlawful attacks which you've described to us, did it ever arise that the persons whom you carried out - instructed to carry out these crimes, became wanted by the police at any stage?

WITNESS:   People who were involved in such incidences, they were

MR MACADAM: /taken

MR MACADAM: 3A taken to go and hide a Mkuze to avoid arrest.

MR MACADAM: How did it come about that they were taken to Mkuze?

WITNESS:   I'll just give an example by myself.  There was one case which took place at Mopela in Mpumalanga where UDF members were killed.  The person who came to give us arms - to give arms was myself.  After the arms were used to kill, I was the one who was supposed to go and collect them.  After the perpetrators were arrested, the IFP youth at Mopela, they mentioned that I am the one who brought the arms.  It was discovered that these firearms were AK47s.  There was this one policeman who was working in collaboration with the IFP by the name of Warrant-Officer Van Vuuren.  He came to me and said to me, "Madlanduna, bring those firearms, because it has been discovered that they were ANC firearms", the ANC is using me(?) and I said to him, "No that's true(?) lies, because the ANC doesn't know anything about these firearms and I'm not working with the ANC".  These were IFP firearms and he asked, "How could I believe you?", and I said to him, "Let's go to M Z Khumalo".  We went to M Z Khumalo.  M Z Khumalo told him that I am telling the truth and he said, "MZ, we need these arms".  MZ said, "No, you can't get these arms, because they're not even here, they're no longer here", and he said, "Therefore, if that's the case, I'm going to arrest this gentleman", referring to me.  M Z Khumalo arranged a bail, because I - it was - the bail application was done in Pietermaritzburg which was paid by - the bail money was paid by Sipho Mlaba.  After I was granted bail, I went to one of the hotels in Durban where I met the planning committee which I last saw at the 121 Battalion, people like Brigadier Van Niekerk, Opperman, Cloete, Botha

MR MACADAM: /- and