Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

ANSWER: Well sir if I was an ordinary station policeman I wouldn't have done the work which I had done, I wouldn't have been taught to do that type of work I would have been taught along a completely different vein if I had worked at a police station.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...to kill the deceased on that day was taken amongst yourselves there at the scene, am I right?

ANSWER: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You never received any instructions from anybody, any of your superiors at all, were you?

ANSWER: That is correct, I was not instructed.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it correct to say that you were in
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command of that group?

ANSWER: Yes I was the senior there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The suggestion to kill the deceased came from somebody who was your junior or under you?

ANSWER: I would just like to rectify one point.   Erasmus and I joined the police force on the same day, coincidentally it was on the same day 23 December 1987, and my force number and his differed by about four digits.   We enroled at the section that day.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Because he was your junior you could have said to him no we cannot do that.

ANSWER: I probably was in a position to stop it but my whole school of thought did not justify that, I did not think about stopping it in any way.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You say your rank at the time was a constable?

ANSWER: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So it was, this decision to kill the deceased was taken by just a group of constables without reference to anybody above them?

ANSWER: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you not think that that was too an important decision to take?

ANSWER: As I have said sir I was, at 21 I was already a senior officer in the Riot Unit.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you tell your superior about the incident?

ANSWER: No not at all.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Who succeeded Major Terblanche as the commander of Unit 8?

ANSWER: Captain Danie Meyer was appointed to the post
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temporarily and directly thereafter it was Colonel Doc Fourie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: At the time of the incident?

ANSWER: The person in charge of the Unit, I speak under correction, but I think it was Danie Meyer.

MR DE JAGER: Could you please repeat the name?

ANSWER: Danie Meyer.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...you were asked about the income you derived from the sale of the weapons, how you used it and you said that you bought meat for braai and drinks and the like, you remember that?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I see here on page 5 of the script you wrote earlier on, not today's, you say
"My salary and the money which I earned through my weapon transactions was not enough for me to survive on."
...to mean that you were in fact using the income you derived from the weapons for more than just a braai and the liquor.   The impression I get is that you in fact used the proceeds from such sales to maintain yourself or to help support your family and yourself?

ANSWER: I was at the time and I still am a bachelor and if you knew me you would know that I was an alcoholic in a certain regard, I drank quite a lot and my whole life was a party.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The impression I get here is that you were using proceeds from the sale of weapons for more than just liquor and braai?

ANSWER: I have no proof or receipts to prove whether I am right or wrong but as I said earlier I even went as far as
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making a loan of R1 000 so it was not for personal gain.   I lived in single barrack quarters, I had a normal single bed which policemen had and my TV and my hi-fi and I did not live an extravagant life.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...the transactions on a regular basis?

ANSWER: Are you referring to the sale of the firearms, put it this way that it was a once in a while transaction.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Harrington you have repeatedly stated that in your opinion you saw the assault on the ANC members as part of the prevailing culture that was existing within the police force.   Is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: As such, you must have found it easy therefore to report all the various assaults which took place on various members of the ANC to your superiors.   Did you in fact do so?

ANSWER: The objective which I strove to achieve I did not see it as a matter of having to report to them.   As I said, the general impression since the beginning from my first day that I enroled there was that that was the impression that was created up until such time as I was a senior and I just proceeded in that school of thought.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...conduct to assault members of the ANC, why not report what you did within the (indistinct) of your duties as a police officer?

ANSWER: I could not see why I had to report on something which was general procedure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you did not report on anything which contained general procedure in your police station, you had no reports made to your commanding officer on any of your
activities as a policeman, do you want us to accept that?
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ANSWER: Yes ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The incident involving the death of the deceased, did you also think it was inappropriate for you to report it as something that you had done within your scope of your activities as a policeman to your commanding officer?

ANSWER: It is as I mentioned in my submission that it is something that happened, it was all in the line of duty and tomorrow was just another day.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...didn't you report it to your superiors?

ANSWER: Are you talking about the murder itself?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

ANSWER: In my state of mind and the way that I saw this whole thing I saw myself as having done something that was okay, I fought the enemy and that is what I had been taught earlier at the police college that the ANC was the enemy, the communist and that we had to combat communism.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...Mr Harrington not conspire with the other applicants not to reveal such information to your superiors?

ANSWER: The information which I am putting before you is the information as far as I can recall and as far as I know to be true.   Thank you ma'am.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Harrington I should have asked you about this earlier but it was drawn to my attention after I had finished questioning you.   I have in front of me a statement which is, in fairness to you, not signed but it's a statement which appears to have been made by the applicant, Mr Madlala.   I want you to tell me, if you can, how big was this pocketbook, what size was it when you found it on the deceased?
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ANSWER: It's a long time ago but if I can try and remember it was just a regular pocketbook.

<UNKNOWN>: Would it have been bigger than the apparatus I'm holding which is about 4 inches X 2 I suppose?

ANSWER: It was a normal, the size of a normal bankbook, the type of book you get at a bank when you open an account.

<UNKNOWN>: I take it Mr Madlala would have seen that pocketbook because you people were together?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: I refer to paragraph 25 of the statement purportedly made by Mr Madlala, because in his statement he says that
"We came across a group of about 15 boys, including Mbongeni Jama, whom we searched after stopping the police van but we found nothing from their persons."

ANSWER: That there was no book found in his possession when he was searched, is that what you are saying?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes what I'm saying is that Mr Madlala says that you came across a group of 15 boys, including Jama, whom we searched but we found nothing from their persons, presumably he means nothing on their persons.