Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I explained here that Mrs Mbuyazi's vehicles was not the one that we did not use. We used Mr Pipi Biyela's Ford Meteor.

MR HEWIT: Yes I heard you say that but all I want you to confirm is that what appears on your affidavit then today to this committee you are now saying is false? Is that correct?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: No. It was a mistake.

MR HEWIT: Who drafted this affidavit for you?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Myself.

MR HEWIT: Were you assisted by anybody?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Who?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson I would submit that the answer to that question is covered by attorney client privilege and it does not serve any purpose in being answered and I would object to the question on that basis.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis would it be attorney client privilege? He just wants to know if he was assisted in drafting the affidavit. I would agree if it were to go to what was said to the attorney maybe then but the question is; "Did you draft the affidavit?" He said he drafted the affidavit. The question is: "Were you assisted?" Now if that is not allowed then it might leave it on record that he drafted the affidavit unassisted whereas in fact he was assisted. I cannot see how the identity of the person who assisted him constitutes an intrusion of attorney client privilege. As long as we do not get into the question as to what was said between the attorney and the client. But let me hear Mr Hewit.

MR STEWART: I accept that. I withdraw the objection.

MR HEWIT: Mr Chairperson I would never enquire into what communications there were between counsel and client. I clearly know that privilege but I am simply asking him.

CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed with it. Mr Stewart has indicated.

MR HEWIT: Were you assisted in compiling this affidavit by any other person?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would say warrant officer Lesea of the ITU assisted you.

MR HEWIT: (...indistinct) present counsel was he assisting you at all?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: No he was not present.

MR HEWIT: In any event I do not want to dwell too much on this point but what you are saying to us today is that this committee must completely ignore what you say in your affidavit in relation to Mrs Mbuyazi's car being used in incident number 2. Is that the effect of what you are saying today?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I explained earlier on that these statements were such that it was extremely difficult to remember all the incidents and I also requested the commission that I might have made mistakes somewhere and if possible I will remember along the way. But this one referring to Mrs Mbuyazi's vehicle I still maintain was a mistake. Because sometimes one might get tired the same thing here may have happened at the time when I was drafting this statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hewit before you proceed I would just like to make an announcement. I see it is almost one 'o clock. I would just like to inform you that before we started proceedings this morning I was informed by the legal representatives that they wish to have an opportunity to allow the applicants and the victims to be able to get together and talk with each other. That has been agreed by all parties but it was also decided then that we would then instead of adjourning at one 'o clock for lunch we will carry on until two 'o clock. So we will not be taking lunch at one 'o clock but we will proceed through until two 'o clock. So I notice some people are getting a bit restless, maybe you're getting hungry, if you want to go out for lunch please do so. But please do so quietly. We will proceed until two 'o clock or any time before that if it is a convenient stage to adjourn. Thank you. Sorry Mr Hewit if you can? Please calm down so we can proceed?

MR HEWIT: Mr Chairman for the convenience of the committee if I may indicate there is only one other topics which I propose to canvas with this particular applicant. I do not know whether any other applicants are going to be called after this applicant. But it seems to me that knowing how much more ground I wish to cover with him I am confident that even with any questions that may be put by the honourable members of the committee and yourself to this applicant tomorrow we will comfortably finish before the time we have to adjourn tomorrow. I just mention that for the convenience of the committee if this would be regarded having regard to the fact that it is lunch time and people are leaving and there might be a few disturbances whether this would not be a possible time to adjourn for the day. Because I am confident that what remaining issues I am going to deal with tomorrow will be concluded fairly quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: So on the other hand we might be able to be finished by two 'o clock. I do not know what the attitude is of.

MR HEWIT: I am in the committee's hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if we can proceed. Thank you.

MR HEWIT: As you please. I now want to deal with incident number 7 which is the murder of Nate Gumede. Who were the people with you when Nate Gumede was murdered?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I was present, Nthena was present, Romeo Mbambo and Hlongwane. And Andile.

MR HEWIT: Now on page 399 of your affidavit and at paragraph 52 you are dealing with the incident number 7 which is the murder of Nate Gumede. You say this
"We remained at Mrs Mbuyazi's house for a further week. During that week Sandile was arrested for the theft of a motor vehicle which had occurred in Stanger. As a result of his arrest he confessed to the death of Nate Gumede".
Now who is that Sandile you are referring to there?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: As I have explained earlier on that I made a mistake to say Sandile. His actual name is Andile.

MR HEWIT: Alright, so is it correct then and do you confirm the contents of that paragraph that it was Andile who was arrested shortly after the murder of Nate Gumede. And that he was arrested on a charge of theft of a motor vehicle?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Can you please tell this committee the details regarding that charge? Was this a theft of a motor vehicle, was this a frolic of his own, done on his own? It had nothing to do with advancing the IFP cause? It was just a criminal activity that he engaged in on his own without instructions? What can you tell us about that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I explained before this commission that I do not know Andile. I was seeing him for the first time that day. Even though he did his own things I really cannot say. I do not know him because he left after the death of Nate.

MR HEWIT: And what became of him afterwards? Where is he today?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I do not know. I just heard that he was arrested but I do not know what had become of him.

MR HEWIT: Is he a policeman?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: No he was not a police.

MR HEWIT: (...indistinct) individual, a civilian?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: He was just an ordinary prominent IFP member.

MR HEWIT: (...indistinct) present when Nate Gumede was murdered?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes he was present.

MR HEWIT: Right now you heard the evidence of the other applicants to the effect that in relation to the murder of Nate Gumede a motor vehicle was involved. Did you hear that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Which car are you referring to?

MR HEWIT: (...indistinct) heard from Romeo Mbambo that he had in fact bought a VW Jetta from Nate Gumede. Did you hear that evidence at this hearing?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would like to explain here.

MR HEWIT: You do not have to explain. I am just asking you whether you heard Romeo Mbambo in his evidence say that this person that he and you and others murdered actually had been involved in a commercial transaction with him, namely that he had sold a VW Jetta to Romeo Mbambo. Did you hear Romeo Mbambo give that evidence?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I heard him.