Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-08

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew, you knew when you fired into the room that there were people and the wrong people might get shot?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, I shot.  After having received information that there were policemen in that room, and the person had told us so was my own comrade whom I trusted.  That he told us that there were policemen was my reason why I went to go and attack there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know the identify of the security guard who was killed in the attack?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No.

NORMAN ARENDSE: How do you feel about the fact that as security guard was killed instead of a policeman?

ANDILE SHICEKA: It is - I'm hurt.  That is why I applied for amnesty, to enable those who were there to know  what actually happened.  I then decided to come and explain what all happened there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you arrested at all in connection with this operation?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No, I was not arrested.  What happened, when I was arrested at Newcastle, I was charged simultaneously for this case in Cape Town but after some time the case was withdrawn.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you stay in Cape Town after this operation or did you go back to Transkei?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I went back to Transkei.

NORMAN ARENDSE: On a bus?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you return to Cape Town at all after that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: When I went to Transkei, after having heard what had happened, I was forced to come back to come and explain what actually happened and how all of these things happened.

NORMAN ARENDSE: When you came back ...[intervention]

ANDILE SHICEKA: I went to Transkei firstly to go and explain what happened here at Khayelitsha Station, to Power as the member of the High Command, that is mistake has happened.  After that I moved from Transkei to Cape Town.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you told to come back to Cape Town or did you just return to Cape Town on your own?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I was told to come back to Cape Town.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Who told you to come back to Cape Town?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Power.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Why did you have to come back to Cape Town?  Did you come to Cape Town with any orders or instructions?

ANDILE SHICEKA: They were orders.

NORMAN ARENDSE: What were they?

ANDILE SHICEKA: To come and attack white people.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Where?  Did they mention any names of any white people or was it again a general instruction?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Where white people are congregated we must attack.

NORMAN ARENDSE: When you were given this instruction, did you ask any questions?  Did you say: "But you know, should we just attack any white people, are all the same, are they all bad"?  Just to use an example, Joe Slovo may have been one of these white people congregating with other white people.  Did you question the instruction at all?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No, I did not ask.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Why not?

ANDILE SHICEKA: At APLA you do not question an order, you carry it out as is.  You carry the operation out and then you ask questions later.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Because it seems to me that, and you must correct me if I'm wrong here, this order or instruction now differs from the previous one where you are attacking the police, army and the purpose being to disarm them and to get arms and ammunition, is that right?  Is this now a different instruction?

ANDILE SHICEKA: They are the same.

NORMAN ARENDSE: They are the same?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you explain?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I'll explain this way.  Police and SADF are part of the state machinery.  The government protects its own interests by using the police and automatically they are our targets as APLA.
	White people because of their position materially, being oppressed by them.  Nobody knows in this meeting that white people oppressed us, everyone knows so.  You could then not be able to determine who is bad or who is not bad.  All of them stay in the same place.  I do not see any difference.
	APLA has been hitting at white people.  It is not a new thing that white people have been hit, it's been a longstanding thing for APLA to attack white people.  I do not see any difference.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now when you returned to Cape Town on the 25th - sorry, you returned to Cape Town on the 25th of December, that's on Xmas day, is that right, 1992?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you alone or did you have company?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I was with Scorpion.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Does Scorpion have another name?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: What is his other name?

ANDILE SHICEKA: It is Gadluma or Vuyisile.

NORMAN ARENDSE: When was the last time you saw him?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get that name, the first one.  Could you spell that for me?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Gadluma.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: G-A-D-L-U-M-A.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his full names?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I do not know his full names because his name that he used in Transkei was Vuyisile.  Here in Cape Town he did not use that Vuyisile name, he used Gadluma.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you.
	The two of you came together from Transkei in a bus I take it?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Where did you go to when you arrived in Cape Town?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We went to Shauna's place.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And at Shauna's place, was anyone else there at Shauna's place?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, there was.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Who was that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: DK.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did DK talk to you, did he speak to you, did he say anything to you?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: What was that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: When I arrived he said: "Commander there is a place I saw that I have been visiting from time to time to check out".

NORMAN ARENDSE: And which place was that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Steakhouse at Claremont.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And after he told you that - so this is a target which DK had identified, is that right?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Had you been there before?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No, I had never gone there before.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Before then, did you know where Claremont was?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I know Claremont.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you go to the restaurant just after he told you that he had identified the restaurant as a target or was it only later that you went?  Did you go that same day or did you go the following day or the following week?

ANDILE SHICEKA: The same day I went there.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The same day?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: How did you get there?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We used public transport to check it out.  I too saw that it was a proper place.  We went inside and bought tobacco and I saw white people frequent the place.  We went back with the intent that at night we would return.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you return?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We did.

NORMAN ARENDSE: How did you return, how did you come back to the restaurant later that night?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We stole a car, a Datsun.  We stole a yellow 1400 Datsun and went with it.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Who drove?

ANDILE SHICEKA: DK.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And where were - so DK's driving, are you in the vehicle, anyone else in the vehicle?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Scorpion, Chicken Licken.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Where are you sitting?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Behind the driver.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Where is Chicken Licken sitting?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Front seat next to the driver.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And Scorpion?

ANDILE SHICEKA: At the back of Chicken Licken.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did DK drive to the restaurant directly?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: He stopped the vehicle at some point, where did he stop the vehicle?

ANDILE SHICEKA: At a corner.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Then tell us what happened after that.

ANDILE SHICEKA: I told him to go inside to see if everything is still okay.  He did and he returned telling us ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You told who to go inside?

ANDILE SHICEKA: DK.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?