Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: May I add my little bit to this too. The ANC addresses this on page 32 under Reparation and Rehabilitation. A few questions because earlier in the presentation the ANC refers to reparations to all victims wherever they may be coming from. Here is simply a reference to victims of the system of apartheid, which I assume is the total conflict still. 
Secondly, the ANC refers to "sustainable reparations approach" and it quotes a few approaches in a broad outline which, to my mind, is fine, but I want to raise, I think, three approaches or categories that may pose problems.
The first is what I referred to yesterday as the "dual capacity of perpetrator-victim". We have this in various areas, I could take an example of the warlord who happened to be shot up but still is a survivor, responsible for other human rights violations, but in terms of the Act is a victim at the same time. Or the youth participating in a necklacing, being detained as a result and tortured, in terms of the Act he is a victim. So it's the difficulty of approaching that, because the system does not allow for fully identifying all those. We are hearing victim statements and hearings and we have amnesty applications but they are not matching all through.
The second is an approach, now this is clearly a kind of human development approach, the sustainable reparations, services of the State and so on, but the approach where cash could enter the picture, whether one needs to look at some kind of a sliding scale; does the morality enter the game; does the severity of the violations be taken into account, how would you approach that? 
So it's really these questions, and you don't have to respond fully to them, but they are serious questions that we are grappling with and we are not sure that we can necessarily fully follow and apply your approach in terms of sustainable reparations.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just intervene here by saying you actually don't need, Mr Deputy President, to respond now. It's quite deep questions that require, I think, a fair degree of reflection, unless you had a "blitzerig antwoord", you needn't do that now, because I had given a half-commitment that we were going to try and finish at 12. We don't need to be pushed by that, but I'm saying you are free, in this free country, to say can I give you a response, a written response later.

UNKNOWN: Yes thanks, Chairperson, that's essentially what I was going to say.
We have been looking at this question ourselves and all of these problems and we thought ourselves further work needed to be done on it, we'll come back to you on it.
I must say also that we are also hoping that there would be the interaction between the Commission and that Committee of National Ministers who were selected to deal with this question, because it's necessary also to look at the actuality in terms of the capacity of the State in whatever respect, whether it's cash or sustainable and so on. We had hoped also that would also come with some answers and we trust that something is happening with regard to the interaction with that government, that government committee.
I must also just say briefly, Chairperson, that there was a report in one of the newspapers yesterday which said we are calling for a Reparations Tax. We didn't. Clearly the writer of the story read something into what we said, but we haven't called for a Reparation Tax. We may very well do that in future, but not yet. (General laughter).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
I want first of all to express our appreciation to you and your delegation, and I will be saying a little more about this.
To thank all who have attended for behaving as well as they have, not giving me too much trouble keeping them in order.
To say thank you too to the Interpreters.
To express my own appreciation to my colleagues on the panel here, and to Hanif and his team.
And then to thank Wendy Orr who is our regional convenor here, and her staff Ruth Llewelyn and Lewin and all her colleagues for the preparation that they put in to ensuring that our hearing goes as smoothly as it has done.
I want to revert to what I said as an interpolation when Ronnie Kasrils had responded. I do want to say that the impression that we have had has been of a submission that has sought to be open, and certainly the impression that I got, especially yesterday and perhaps to some extent today, in the responses that have come from yourselves have been the sort of responses that take the process of reconciliation forward.
Ultimately it hasn't to do with legalities. It hasn't to do with that side of it. It has to do ultimately with the spiritual values of goodness, of compassion, of caring. It has to do with the creation of an atmosphere in this land where people are ready and openly are able to say that they made mistakes, that they are sorry for what they may have done, because that opens up the opportunity to a future.
Forgiveness is not just a nebulous entity. Forgiveness opens a window to the possibility of a future. Without forgiveness there is no future, and that takes us beyond justice as narrowly understood, beyond, as I said, just legality, and it is in the creation of that atmosphere that a presentation such as yours, and the subsequent interaction between yourselves and us here, it is in the creation of that that we are going to find the value of this thing.
But it is possible from here to be able to move forward, because there is an openness and an acknowledgement that we are human, and because we are human we have the capacity to go wrong, but because we are human we have the capacity to be noble, and it is possible for the healing to happen in this land.
We just want to express appreciation for what has taken place here since yesterday until now. We want to wish you very well and God speed as you travel to these other places.