Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Can you explain this incident to the Committee about that evening when you went to Botswana?

ANSWER: When we got to Botswana that night Joe and I and Captain Dirk Coetzee and David Tsikalanga and Paul Van Dyk were together.   I was given a Makarov pistol, Joe was given a Tokarev, Captain Vermeulen, I think he was a Lieutenant at the time, Lt Vermeulen had an HMC sub-machine gun which had a silencer and Captain Dirk Coetzee also had a gun with a silencer.  David Tsikalanga and Paul Van Dyk were, remained in the van in which we were travelling which was some distance from the house.   The people that went to that house that night were Captain Dirk Coetzee, Lt Vermeulen,
3a	Joe /...
MR DE WET-MARAIS	62	NOFOMELA
Joe Mamasela and I.

<UNKNOWN>: Did any of you know the house that you were going to?

ANSWER: Yes sir it was Joe Mamasela who knew this house that we were going to and I also knew it by this time because it was shown to me when we went there the first time.

<UNKNOWN>: What happened when you reached the house?

ANSWER: When we got there, Joe was walking in front, I was behind him and behind me was Dirk Coetzee and he had smeared something black on his face and his hands.   While we were standing there people came out of the house, ladies, I do not remember what they used to light their way, I did not see what it was.   Joe... (End of 3a)  One of the ladies fell to the ground and then we entered the house, there was a door going, leading to the passage and there were bedrooms and Dirk Coetzee pushed me back and he and Joe went in to the passage and they started shooting.   Gunshots rang out as he and Joe were shooting and I was standing behind them in the house in the kitchen if I remember correctly.   Thereafter when he went out, it was myself and Joe and I shot and as we were leaving I shot once if I remember correctly and there I wasn't seeing anyone, we were just shooting randomly.  I just had one shot towards the closed doors and we went out.  We passed where Lt Vermeulen was standing near the window, I cannot remember whether he shot, whether he fired a shot or not because at that stage the way the shots were ringing I cannot say.   We then ran to the car and went back and we crossed the border through the fence and we went back to a certain base which we were using which was somewhere near a hillside where there was a house.
3b	QUESTION: /...
MR DE WET-MARAIS	63	NOFOMELA

<UNKNOWN>: Did Joe Mamasela say anything to you about the person that he had shot?

ANSWER: Yes sir, he said that he killed Joyce Dibali and he was talking a lot about it saying that he was sure that it was her that he had shot.  I did not know her, I had never seen her.

<UNKNOWN>: When you shot at the door, what went on in your mind at that stage?

ANSWER: I considered the possibility that there could have been someone behind that door.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you regard this mission into Botswana and your instructions to kill the people in the house as part of your duties as a policeman at Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: I maintain up to this day that it was part of our duties.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE WET-MARAIS

CHAIRPERSON: Could you have declined or refused to go?

ANSWER: I would not have been able to decline after having been told what I was going to do.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Nofomela what were you specific instructions?

ANSWER: I was instructed that the house that we were going to see when we got there we should shoot any occupants in that house.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...to shoot at anybody you find in the house what was the relevance of mentioning the name Joyce Dibali to you?

ANSWER: Sir with regards to Joyce Dibali, me knowing about her, more about her knowing that she was the main target and she was an occupant of that house, I only came to hear about that afterwards when Joe spoke a lot about that.   There was
3b	no /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	64	NOFOMELA
no specific instruction to me that we should go in there and shoot Joyce Dibali specifically, we were told to go in there and shoot any occupant.   If she was, we were instructed to shoot her only then I don't know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...did you hear the name Joyce Dibali mentioned?

ANSWER: I heard it several times sir because there was another incident which I linked to this one, the one of Mowabi(?) Dibali, there was an incident where I was present where I had participated when he was in Soweto while they were looking for this person's sister by the name of Joyce or Lilian, so I assumed that Joyce was known as being in Botswana because they took her brother Mowabi Dibali.   The fact that we went to Gaberone was not that we were going there to seek out Joyce Dibali's specifically, I had heard her name several times.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...the name Lilian Kahile as apparently the unknown woman was Joyce Dibali, Lilian Kahile, where did you get this name from?

ANSWER: That was another name, I don't know if it was an MK the name that she used, but the name that I heard most about was that one.    I don't know whether it was an MK name or whether there actually was someone else by that name.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...in your application you said two women were present at the house, apparently Joyce Dibali and Lilian Kahile.

ANSWER: Sir I do not deny what you are saying.   This name was mentioned often by Jan Coetzee and Joe Mamasela, they are the only people who knew these people very well so I got the name from them.   I don't know those people up to this
3b	day /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	65	NOFOMELA
day.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Kahile was mentioned many a times by Coetzee and Joe Mamasela, was this on the evening of the operation?

ANSWER: Not that night, you see I said there was another incident which I linked to this one that happened in Bophutatswana which was where Mohabi Dibali was taken and I linked it to this incident in Gaberone, according to what I remember.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...separate, divorce them if possible and concentrate on the Joyce Dibali incident.   Are you saying that the name Lilian Kahile belongs to the incident where you abducted Mohabi Dibali, is that what you are alleging now?

ANSWER: I'm talking about after his abduction that is where I became familiar with these names.   It is possible, I do not dispute it, that even this incident where there was this shooting in Gaberone that these names were mentioned by Jan Coetzee and Joe Mamasela.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Captain Dirk Coetzee never mentioned Lilian Kahile, instead he said "an unknown woman" as well as Tsikalanga.   You are the only person who comes with this name.
NO ENGLISH SPOKEN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I remember this name sir.

ANSWER: I remember this name sir.   It is possible but I do not remember, but I remember Jan Coetzee mentioning this name as well as Joe.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you see the two women who were in the house moved inside the house?

ANSWER: No I did not see them.   I saw them when they were coming out of the door and I did not even have a second
3b	chance /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	66	NOFOMELA
chance to look because Joe had already jumped and grabbed one of them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You say that while you were standing there, that is in front of the house, while you were standing there these people came out of the house, is that what you said?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: As at the time when these people opened the door you people were not advancing towards the house or towards the door, you were actually standing there?

ANSWER: We were next to the house if I remember correctly sir, we were not far from the house, we were right next to the house.   I said that when the people were coming out of the house, we were next to the house, we were not far from it at all.   We were standing.