Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Morgan do you remember how long Katiza stayed at the house of Mrs Mandela before he came to live with you?

MR MORGAN: It was quite some time, but not a long time because he used to stay in the church, from there moved to Winnie's house and from there moved to my house.

YASMINE SOOKA: Are we talking about days, weeks or months?

MR MORGAN: We are referring to months.

YASMINE SOOKA: How many, more than three, less?

MR MORGAN: I do not remember.

YASMINE SOOKA: Give me some idea Mr Morgan, is it more than three months, less than that?

MR MORGAN: Eight or nine months.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Boraine?

DR BORAINE: Mr Morgan, I want to put to you certain points arising from your own evidence and then I want to ask you only one question.
 You worked for Mrs Mandela for a very long time, you knew this is all in your evidence, you knew the Football Club, you told us that they were doing many things apart from playing football.  You said that even some of the cars were stolen, that you yourself was trained, that you used to have AK47's, that you knew one person who had his throat almost cut off, that you were present when Stompie was beaten, that you went and fetched the boys from the Methodist manse,  and I could go on and on.  All of this was taking place, did you ever consider going and telling someone, either in the political leadership or in the church or the police or a lawyer as to what was happening?

MR MORGAN: No, I never considered doing that.

DR BORAINE: Mr Morgan, I put it to you that you were not only a witness, but that you were a participant.

MR MORGAN: I witnessed and I watched all the things that she was doing.

DR BORAINE: You never took part?

MR MORGAN: No, I never took part.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Morgan, I will speak Zulu.  You will remember that yesterday there was one witness, there was something that you said and I did not understand it, now I would like for you to repeat it because I don't understand quite clear.
 You said yesterday you had to implement some tricks so you could get some money.  What did you mean?

MR MORGAN: One will generate money in many ways, there are many ways of generating money.

<UNKNOWN>: But when I am talking to you that somebody who uses tricks, is somebody who is a liar, can you admit to that, can you agree with me?

MR MORGAN: Yes, I do.

<UNKNOWN>: That means at the time when you were using tricks, that meant that you were lying?

MR MORGAN: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Morgan, I just want to come back to Katiza, when was the first time you met him because you are the one person who has been there consistently since 1976.  When was the first time you met Katiza, was it when he was brought from the manse or had you met him prior to that?

MR MORGAN: It was my first time to see him, that time at Mandela's house.

BONGANI FINCA: I am only raising this because Katiza himself says that he stayed at Mrs Mandela's house long before he went to the manse and he was in fact sent to the manse, do you know anything about that?

MR MORGAN: No, I don't know that.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Morgan, before I thank you, I will ask for you to be available because maybe some of the Attorneys would like to cross-examine you as well.
 You might be called back to the witness stand, so please avail yourself but for now, so long I will thank you in a special way.  Yesterday you had occupied the witness stand for a long time, and we are quite aware of your age and we apologise for keeping you 
that long and bombarding you with questions.
 And we are also thankful for the fact that you realise that we are about truth too, and this is why you also are prepared to tell the truth.
 We now call Pelo Mekgwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming, we should have had you yesterday but you are aware that we were not able to have done so, and thank you for your patience.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairman, I am Sanjav Makanjee, and I am acting on behalf of the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Yasmin Sooka will administer the oath or the affirmation.

PELO MEKGWE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mekgwe, did you give evidence at the trial of Jerry Richardson?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes, I did.

MR MAKANJEE: I wonder if you could confirm the type of evidence that you gave.  You were asked whether you were accused of sleeping with Paul and by that I mean Bishop Verryn of the Methodist Church, do you remember that?

PELO MEKGWE: That was the accusation against me.

MR MAKANJEE: Who made that accusation against you?

PELO MEKGWE: Xoliswa made the accusation.

MR MAKANJEE: Did anybody else make that accusation against you?

PELO MEKGWE: And also the members of the team.

MR MAKANJEE: Do you remember that there was an accusation that Stompie Sepei was an informer?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes, I remember that.

MR MAKANJEE: Who made that accusation?

PELO MEKGWE: Xoliswa is the one who made it.

MR MAKANJEE: Was there anybody else who made that accusation?

PELO MEKGWE: And also the members of the team.

MR MAKANJEE: In your evidence at the trial you were asked about the assaults and you stated that Mrs Mandela, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, started hitting you with open hands, with fists and also with the sjambok.  Do you confirm that?

PELO MEKGWE: That is false.

MR MAKANJEE: I am sorry?

PELO MEKGWE: Open hands only.

MR MAKANJEE: In your evidence at the trial you further stated that Stompie was accused of being an informer.  The question was put to you who made this accusation and your response was Winnie.   Can you confirm that?

PELO MEKGWE: No, that is not the truth, it was Xoliswa.

MR MAKANJEE: then you went on and you were asked to tell the Court as far as you can remember, who assaulted you?  Then again you said Winnie was the first one and the members of the team followed?

PELO MEKGWE: As I said at the beginning, she started with the open hands and she went out.  Everybody take over after that.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay, these incidents occurred on the 29th of December.  Are you saying that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was present at this stage on the 29th of December at her house?

PELO MEKGWE: As I said at the beginning, she is the one who started to beat.

MR MAKANJEE: Are you aware that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said that on the 29th of December she was at Brandfort?

PELO MEKGWE: I am aware yes,

MR MAKANJEE: What is your comment to that?

PELO MEKGWE: I don't think she was not there, because she is the one who started the beating.

MR MAKANJEE: Why did you leave the country when you were due to give evidence at the trial of State versus Sithole and seven others of which Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was accused 8?

PELO MEKGWE: Can you repeat your question please.

MR MAKANJEE: Why did you leave the country before you were due to give evidence at the trial of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

PELO MEKGWE: The reason is not because I was afraid of that case, the reason is that I made the arrangement before the plan came.  The people that I have arranged this thing with, they delayed because of the money that was involved to take me away from this country.  That is my reason that I went out of this country.

MR MAKANJEE: When you came back into the country, did you contact anybody?

PELO MEKGWE: I contacted the people that I was working with in the ANC Youth League.  Also I contacted Mrs Mandela for the assistance because I was then a student, I was supposed to be a student in the Technikon RSA.  I contacted her therefore to ask the assistance, financial assistance to study.

MR MAKANJEE: Were you given any financial assistance?

PELO MEKGWE: Exactly, yes.

MR MAKANJEE: By whom?

PELO MEKGWE: By Mrs Winnie.