Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: Can we have Mr Phatlane coming onto the witness stand.  Mr Phatlane, we welcome you here.  Please relax and we would like to hear your story.  I would ask Mr Wynand Malan to lead you when you take your oath.  Over to you Wynand.

MR MALAN: Mr Phatlane, will you please stand if it is possible.  If it is difficult, you may remain seated.

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Yes, I can stand up.

MR MALAN: I see Mr Phatlane is not as old yet as I am.  Will you please raise your right hand.

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR MALAN: Thank you.  You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phatlane, we will offer you the opportunity to tell us your problems that you experienced and we would ask you to briefly give us the important facts which surround your problem.  I will then give you the opportunity to tell us your story.

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: I will tell you my problems if I can remember all of them.  Those that I have heard I will also tell them to you.  What troubled me the most is that I have lost my child who was murdered, but he was murdered whilst I was not present.  I was at work at that time.  When I arrived at home I was told that Lucky has been murdered.  I got, I was taken aback.  Then I asked who killed him.  Then I was told
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 W T PHATLANE
that the police had killed my son.  That is what shocked me and then I asked how.  They said he was with his brother.  The name of our street is Manaka, but where they were arrested was Makombane Street.  
 As they left them, there were people who were rioting for electricity that gave us problems.  So my question was why did they kill them if they were rioting against such problems with regards to electricity.  There was a lot of them, but some of them ran away, but mine was shot because he was the most wanted because he was the one who fiddled with electricity. When we stopped the current they come and fix it up so that they have electricity.  When we asked why they switched off the lights they told us they do not know why they did that or was it purposely that they switched off or they cut the electricity, but their answer to the authorities was that they were fighting for freedom.  
 He was shot and fell in somebody elses yard.  What did not please me was that when we tried to investigate the murder of my son we could not get the whole facts of the story.  We wanted to see how he was shot, but as when we arrived there he was already taken in a car and taken to the hospital.  Then there was nothing we could do from there, but I wanted to know how did the police kill him.  We were informed that the police were driving in Hippos.  My question was did you get the registration numbers of these Hippos.  
 They were driving around Pelindabo on the tenth of November.  It was in 1990.  The time was during the day at about ten o' clock, but now where are these people who would give us evidence and tell us how did they kill my son.  No one came.  My neighbour was not around, but however his 
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
3 W T PHATLANE
tenants did inform us and they were the ones who cleaned the blood that was spilled around.  I could not get them and then when I found that my son has been taken to the hospital, his mother was at the shop where she sells in Pelindabo.  She was told that your son has been shot.  When she arrived there the body was not there, but it has already been removed.  He was already dead by then at the hospital when he arrived there.  
 So we were informed that he was taken to the mortuary in Atteridgeville.  Because I did not know I went to the hospital, I could not find him.  When I enquired I was told his body was taken to the Government Mortuary.  I went the following day to H F because I got permission from my employer.  The place was bigger than this one.  The place was full of corpses.  When I entered I could recognise my son.  They were not in bags.  Probably they were on stretchers so I recognised him.  Then I can testify that he was dead.  
 At home at about nine o' clock in the evening the police arrived.  They were white policemen.  They were young in age.  They said to me is this where Lucky Phatlane resides?  We heard that Lucky Phatlane has been shot and killed.  I said, yes, that is what I heard, but I enquired who are you?  They said they are policemen.  We wanted to know the facts surrounding his murder, but I told them I have been to the mortuary and I have seen my son.  Those who saw him or witnessed the incident, do you know them.  I told them he was with his little sister.  
 In 1990 he was about this little girl's age.  She has no information because she was very young by then.  His brother held him in his arm.  Even when he was shot he fell 
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
4 W T PHATLANE
on top of this little girl.  He was already shot by then.  The police came and then shot him.  They found him lying in this person's yard, lying on the ground.  The other one stood next to him with two policemen following from behind.  The other one said in Afrikaans, please open your mouth and then the other one shoved his finger in his mouth.  That is all what I heard.  People said they saw when my child was shot and killed.  If I want them now to give me evidence, they are not around and they are not willing to tell me the facts.  
 After a month policemen came again to my place at about ten o' clock.  I wanted to know where they came from.  They were in uniform, but I told them that policemen, they are in posters.  So I do not trust if you are policemen, what do you want.  They wanted to know whether Lucky resides here.  I said, yes.  They said we thought maybe you can give us a statement.  I said how can police come to take a statement at this time.  I asked them where do you come from.  They said we are from town, come tomorrow for the statement, I will be available.  However, I do not trust you, because everybody can wear a police uniform.  Ever since that day no one came to my place.  I was deeply hurt.  I will end there.  That is how my child was killed.  That is the evidence I have.  I have hearsay evidence and that is all I can say.

CHAIRPERSON: You said there was a march on that day.  Do you mean on that day when he was shot?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Yes, some people said they were on a march.  I asked them what they were doing.  They said they were doing nothing.  It is only that the police were looking for those who they shot together with my son.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not as a resident ever hear that there PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
5 W T PHATLANE
was going to be a march?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: No.  The Comrades use to march almost every day.  We would only see them marching and not know what the reasons for the march were.

CHAIRPERSON: You said here they were rioting, the march was against the problems of electricity.

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: Yes, it was so, but we as parents, did not take any part in the marches, but the youth continued with their march.

CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes when these youth conducted marches they would try by all means to prevent workers to go to work.  That is why I am asking whether the parents, on that day, went to work and the children remained behind for the march because of these electricity problems you had?

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: I do not know whether they were marching for reasons regarding school or what, but what I think is that their march was having something to do with the problems of electricity.

CHAIRPERSON: According to you it seems as if Lucky was not at the march.  He was with his sister at home.