Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Not really, sir.   He is a leader in his own field.   I was performing small tasks for him, I was walking streets, I was working on his computer, I could assume he was doing other things that I don't know about, though I would not have guessed exactly what he was involved in, I would more have thought other people were doing those activities, because he was busy with an election.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.   Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Clark, speaking about relationships, what is your relationship with Mr Visser?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Once I thought it was a friendly relationship, then I ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: When was that?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That was before Mr Visser refused to pay me my money after I wrote the computer programme.

JUDGE WILSON: When about was that?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: It would have been round about, I guess the same time, March '83 (sic) or thereabouts, I'm not too sure, but at the time that Mr Hani was shot, Mr Visser and I were still on talking, speaking terms, and some time after that I didn't get the money that was due to me, and he had various reasons, and I have sympathy for him, he had legal problems, he explained to me that he had these legal problems and that it was all a big misunderstanding, I believed him, and I was reluctant to take him to court for the monies he owed me, because I was on a friendly footing with him and his wife, his children, and I could see the wife and children having very difficult times, so I basically let it be, and it, before that time we were on a friendly footing and I thought everything was fine.   Subsequent to that, customers started paying out money, and I never received my fair share of the money.   I spent months writing a computer programme, for which I received not a cent.

JUDGE WILSON: Can you think of any reason why he is drawing you into this business around the JCI cheque?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes indeed I can, sir.   He was sentenced to go and spend a term in prison.   If he can get amnesty, clearly he doesn't have to spend time in prison, and who is the only political contact he has, because he himself was never involved politically, his only political contact is me, and through me, Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.   One of the fraud cases happens to be slightly before Mr Hani's assassination, and this seems to have been terribly convenient.   I do have proof here in front of me, if I may just bring that into it as well, proof of this particular money that was stolen just before Mr Hani was assassinated ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: I've heard you said that ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: ...and this particular ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: ...it was stolen ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: ...shows that it was stolen in the post.

JUDGE WILSON: Ja, in the post.   That's why I ...(inter-vention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Now he mentioned ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Ja?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: ...that I got it from a certain person at JCI, and that person's name has been mentioned in newspapers as well ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: ...and this offends me.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, that might be so, I just want to try and clarify something else.   What, and Mr Roodt, what is Mr Roodt's situation?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I was on friendly terms with him.   I'm aware he was a member of the AWB.   We went out on a few AWB things, get-togethers, I was not an AWB member myself, but I am aware Mr Roodt was, but he's quite a lot older than myself, our dealings were polite and cordial, more friendly, but nothing more to it than that.

JUDGE WILSON: But Mr Roodt was also, if I understood the evidence correctly, he seems to also have been involved in politics at that stage, in '93?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: He was a member of the AWB and he was certainly very concerned at events in the country, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Would he have been in a position to present Mr Visser with a political cover for his amnesty application?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I presume Mr Visser needs witnesses and possibly he can, but really you should call Mr Roodt, I don't really know enough.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, I'm trying to understand why he pulled you into this thing, I mean you say that he's obviously looking ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Well, Mr Visser ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Ja, he's obviously looking for a political cover?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Why Mr Visser would do it is obvious to me, why Mr Roodt would do it, I don't know, that, to me, is a total mystery.

JUDGE WILSON: Ja.   Well I don't know what Roodt, I believe that, I've heard there was reference to an amnesty application, but I'm more concerned about Visser, because you say that he actually approached you and he wanted you to apply?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: He wanted me to apply, and he gave me really a cock and bull story, and I just distanced myself from this rubbish, I'm not prepared to go and lie like this for the man, I'm prepared to help him in various ways, but I'm certainly not prepared to do that.

JUDGE WILSON: And that was after doing you in with your money ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes, it was after that.

JUDGE WILSON: ...(indistinct)?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: It was after that.

JUDGE WILSON: So he had the nerve to actually come back to you and say ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Well he was promising he would pay eventually, it's one of those things, but yes, I regard it as a nerve to ask, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: To ask, on top of what he had done, to ask you to falsely in fact involve yourself, first of all, in an amnesty application ...(intervention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: ...and to cover him, who has done you in?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, may I say something in the witness' presence, just in case he has an explanation, because we are going to argue that the Vryheidsfront is a different organisation from the Volksfront.   The Vryheidsfront was as a result of a political break-up of the Volksfront, and the Vryheidsfront took part in the election, the Vryheidsfront took part in the election, the Volksfront remained behind, and the Volksfront was in existence during 1992 (indistinct).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: If that is the case, Mr Chairman, then why did you accuse me of spying for the Freedom Front?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I made, I, because I thought that Volksfront and Vryheid ...(intervention).

INTERPRETER: Mike please.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...Volksfront and Vryheidsfront were the same thing, but I have good people around me, who advised me that that was a mistake.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: But not just a mistake, Mr Chairman, because in Mr Visser's amnesty application, where I did see a copy, Vryheidsfront is mentioned.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well just point that out to us please, because we read Volksfront in his application.   Have a look on the front page, earlier, and if you'd give us the application, we will draw attention to the Volksfront.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I know Volksfront was mentioned there, I would like to look for the occurrence of Vryheidsfront.   If I am mistaken, it is possibly, Mr Chairman, because Mr Bizos used the word Vryheidsfront so often, even in Pretoria, when I was sitting there, where I was being accused of being a spy for them.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Well, here on page, is that page 1?

UNKNOWN: And on page 2.