Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JIMMY MBANE: He shouted first don't shoot the tall man and then I heard a fire, a shot ringing in the car.  Whether he shot the man or not, I am not sure but the shot went off in the car.  And then he dragged him out of the vehicle and he landed on the ground.  He landed on his side.

MR BOOYENS: And then he fired a shot again?  Bellingan?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, he fired again.  This person was lying on the ground.  I could see 7 to 10 metres away.

MR BOOYENS: How many shots did he fire while this person was on the ground?

JIMMY MBANE: I heard one shot in the vehicle, I don't know whether he hit him or not.  He dragged him outside and threw him on the ground, but outside I heard about 2 shots, because I was very near.

MR BOOYENS: So there must have been three AK47's left in the kombi.  Not so?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did all three of you get out without your AK's?

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't have mine.

MR BOOYENS: Rasta?

JIMMY MBANE: I am not sure.  There was quite a confusion.  Whether he had his AK rifle, I am not sure.  But the other gentleman didn't have his rifle with.  My AK they found inside the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: Well, for you information they didn't find it inside the vehicle.  There wasn't, according to the police report....there was a total of only 3 AK47's were found there and not five, and on your description there should have been five.

JIMMY MBANE: There were supposed to be five.  Belletjies and them know exactly where they are.  There are supposed to be five.  They know where the rest are.

MR BOOYENS: The two AK's in the blanket were found and one was found with Chris Piet and he was not in the immediate vicinity of the kombi.  There is no...on what this Committee has been told and on what the inquest has been told there is a total of three AK's found.
	You don't know where the other two are.  You say there must have been five.  There must have been two in the kombi, not so?  You didn't take yours.  The man that you say was shot by Bellingan didn't take his, so there must have been two AK's in the kombi.

JIMMY MBANE: All I know is that we had five AK rifles.  Four of them, I took them inside the kombi.  One AK we got from Rasta, the Makarov, Tokarev and two hand grenades.  Then if that didn't appear during the inquest, that's not my business.  If they have done their cover-ups, I don't know anything about that and that is not my business.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say there were four AK's in the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: Your honour, we had three AK's in the kombi, and then we had...all of them made up five AK's.

ADV J MOSES: I must add, my Lord, that I have heard that the interpreter said two when he testified in Xhosa.  She translated it as two.  But when he himself testified in English he referred to three in the kombi.  That is how I understood it, just to clear that up.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have a hand gun with you?

JIMMY MBANE: I had a Makarov.

MR BOOYENS: Did you keep that with you?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I kept it with me.

MR BOOYENS: Even when you ran away you kept it with you.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's right.

MR BOOYENS: And how did you get to Koeberg?

JIMMY MBANE: I ran to one of the houses, they gave me some clothes to change so that I could disguise.  They took me to Yamile's place.  From there they took me to the bus.  From there I took a bus to Koeberg.

MR BOOYENS: Were there buses running right to Koeberg at that stage?

JIMMY MBANE: There were buses to Koeberg at the time.

MR BOOYENS: The - now apart from the man close to the kombi that you say was shot by Mr Bellingan, did you see anybody else being shot?

JIMMY MBANE: When I was running away, just a distance from the kombi, there were firing just across the road.  I saw Rastaman falling, and I didn't see they were shooting, I just saw him falling and he stood up again.  Then I ran away because I was also afraid of the gunshots.

MR BOOYENS: When Rasta was running, did he have his AK with him?

JIMMY MBANE: He had his AK rifle.  Because I saw him falling and he stood up again and he fell again and he stood up again with his rifle.  He was not far from my direction.  There was just a tar road in between.

MR BOOYENS: Was he shooting?

JIMMY MBANE: As he was falling, I'm not sure, I can't say he was shooting, because he fell and stood up again and fell again and stood up.  I am not sure if he was actually firing.

MR BOOYENS: Were you subsequently asked to identify the bodies?

JIMMY MBANE: I did not identify the bodies.  All I saw was the video the following day.

MR BOOYENS: Didn't you go to the morgue?  The mortuary.

JIMMY MBANE: No, I didn't go there.

MR BOOYENS: Do you know whether Eric went to the mortuary?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't have any knowledge.

MR BOOYENS: Were you shown the video and asked to ID the people?

JIMMY MBANE: Some of them were badly injured, their bodies were bullet riddled, although I could identify some of them.

MR BOOYENS: So, are you saying that you yourself never identified the bodies, nor all of them on the video.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: I couldn't identify all of them on the video.

MR BOOYENS: All seven of the people that were killed were members of your group.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: I recently saw a television interview with a man who claimed he was also there, and if necessary we are endeavouring to get that video, but he actually got away from that attack.  Were there only seven of them or were there more?

JIMMY MBANE: Who managed to run away?

MR BOOYENS: A man, he wasn't identified, who claimed that he was also there, but he escaped the trap, he wasn't killed.

JIMMY MBANE: All I know is that there were nine of us.  I don't know of anybody who escaped.

MR BOOYENS: Can you perhaps insofar as it may be necessary to put to you what the police evidence is.  You are not in a position to dispute that members of  group attacked the police first.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Those who were with me in the kombi, no one attacked the police.  I won't know whether when they were outside if somebody shot at the police or not.

MR BOOYENS: The police evidence was that the first thing that happened is that one of the people threw a hand grenade at a police car.  You are not in a position to dispute that.  You actually heard a hand grenade.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: All I am saying is that who threw the grenade, I don't know.  Even the police have hand grenades.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, you have obviously completely changed sides again politically.  Is that correct?  Are you now a loyal and good supporter of the ANC again?  You don't support the erstwhile forces that you were associated with?  Is that correct?

ADV J MOSES: My Lords, are the political convictions at this point..does it bear any relevance?

CHAIRPERSON: It may affect his credibility, mighten it?

MR BOOYENS: Answer the question.

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't understand your question.

MR BOOYENS: You were an ex-ANC member, you stayed loyal to them.  Are you now again a full and loyal member and supporter of the ANC?  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't belong to any political organisation.  I lead my life now.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.  Just to sum up the police evidence will be that someone threw a hand grenade, people shot at a police car, the police shot back and in the fire fight people were killed.

JIMMY MBANE: I don't have any knowledge about that.

MR BOOYENS: Furthermore, nobody shot at anybody inside the vehicle.  Bellingan specifically didn't shoot at anybody inside the vehicle.  He shot at a person who was outside the vehicle.

JIMMY MBANE: I deny that because I was just 7 to 10 metres from Bellingan.  It's not what I heard people saying.  I was there.

MR BOOYENS: Did you see Bellingan shoot inside the vehicle?

JIMMY MBANE: I told you before, I am not sure whether you want me to repeat that?

MR BOOYENS: Tell me again.  Did you see him shoot.  Yes or no.