Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR KUNY: Well, can we not assume that if you were personally implicated in a kidnapping and assault, this is something you would have remembered, surely?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had not been involved at that stage, through the perceptions of the time, ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... in any particular assaults or abductions.

MR KUNY: No, my question to you is, were you personally implicated in the kidnapping and assault?  Was the allegation made you participated in the kidnapping and assault or was it that the boys on your property ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was made about the boys ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: So, there ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... at that stage.  If you are referring to the discussion between ourselves and the community leaders, they made reference to the boys only at that stage.

MR KUNY: So, at that stage there was no specific allegation that you, personally, had participated in a kidnapping and assault?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not that I recollect.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kuny.

MR KUNY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to stop you, but I want to have an indication of how much more you have.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, I would ask for a bit of latitude in this regard.  I am only going to deal with this one issue, I do not propose to deal with any other aspect in ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: ... particular with this.

CHAIRPERSON: But it depends on how long ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, I ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... given that you have got all your other colleagues.  I mean, I ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: I accept that, but I would like to be able to just deal with the chronology and sequence of events surrounding the ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, you are not answering my question.

MR KUNY: What is the question, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to know how much more time you think you require and how much, then I can decide how much I am able to let you have.

MR KUNY: Well, if I said half a hour, would that ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MR KUNY: ... that be in order?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.  I mean I have, you have already. had (...indistinct) ten, another ten.

MR KUNY: I will do my best, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR KUNY: Now, your evidence at the trial was, you were infuriated and you said that if the allegations had meant to refer to the children, who had been brought by Falati, then the Crisis Committee was free to go to the back rooms and speak to them directly.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible, yes.

MR KUNY: Well, that was your evidence.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: You will not dispute that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I would not.

MR KUNY: But you say in your evidence that they did not go that day in your presence to see the youths.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not recollect that.

MR KUNY: Do you recall the evidence of the Crisis Committee that they were not, that they were not granted immediate access to the youths by yourself?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that evidence here.

MR KUNY: Do you have any difficulty with that evidence?

MR SEMENYA: Well, chairperson my recollection is I even pertinently said, if you say "before we gained access" and I think it was Minister Mufamadi who says, maybe he did not mean that they were refused access before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think I will come in here.  What is the point that you want to make Mr Kuny?

MR KUNY: The point is that the Crisis Committee gave the impression, in their evidence, that they were not granted immediate access to the youths.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Semenya is right in the intervention that he made and that there was that response, but ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... would you put a version or to the witness?

MR KUNY: Yes.  Well, I am not going to take that any further, but is it not correct that at that stage when these allegations were presented to you, Mrs Mandela, that you had said you had decided not to go and speak to the youths or have anything further to do with them?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not understand your question. Can you repeat it, Sir?

MR KUNY: Your evidence at the trial was that when these allegations were presented to you, you decided that you would not go, you would not have anything further to do with the youths.  You were not going to see them, you did not want to be, you did not want it to be said that you were influencing them in any way.  Is that not correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I think that you are quoting that out of context.  I think it may have been something to the effect that the community leaders could see the children in my absence so that it must not be thought I was influencing them.  I think you are quoting that out of context.

MR KUNY: Well, let me quote to you what you said at your trial.  You said,
                           "The allegations, that I told the Crisis Committee that in the light of what they had alleged, I would have no contact whatsoever with them and that they were free to have access to those children so that they should not charge us as having influenced them, because of the seriousness of the allegations.".

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it is possible that day that they could go and have access to them.

MR KUNY: Now, why did you, why did you decide at that stage that you would have no contact with the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it was because of the nature of the allegations that were put across to me.  I do not know precisely what was, I do not remember what was precisely said.

MR KUNY: Well, let us look at that for a moment, Mrs Mandela.  You say in your evidence now that the allegation had not been made against you personally.  Is that not correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I said, to me recollection, yes.

MR KUNY: Yes, you, at the trial we know the evidence was that you had an alibi regarding the kidnapping and assault of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And you further said in evidence at the trial, that your conscience was clear.  Do you recall that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Now, if that is the case, why was, why did you decide at that stage that you would have no contact with the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That may have been as a result of the discussions between myself and some of the community leaders.  I think Reverend Chikane stated here that, for instance, we had a difficult meeting which lasted five hours.  It could have been, it is possible that it was as a result of those discussions ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: No.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... details of which I cannot recall.

MR KUNY: Mrs Mandela, we talking about the first occasion when the Crisis Committee came to you and made these shocking allegations.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible.

MR KUNY: Now, let me ask you, at that stage you were not aware of any assaults having been committed on the boys.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I do not remember what allegations were put across by the community leaders at that stage.

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If I remember the contents, then I would be able to answer you.

MR KUNY: No, no, I am afraid, Mrs Mandela, it is not as easy as that.  The allegations that were made were that you,  there had been a kidnapping and serious assaults.

MR SEMENYA: But, Chairperson, again, I do not want to interrupt my learned colleague.  Part of the allegations were that they are held against their will by the witness.  At least let us put the entire context to the witness to respond.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, maybe make the total ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... allegations.

MR KUNY: ... it is very straight forward, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.