Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

ADV DE JAGER: But didn't they stand across the previous witness' house and shouted at him that they wanted the parts, the hand or the body parts of Martin?
MR R.B. CELE: I say this because when we questioned them, that is what they told us that they had come to fetch the body parts.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that.  These questions are emanating from the evidence you have just led that you expected them to follow certain channels.

ADV DE JAGER: The previous witness was the leader, so the people stood there, outside, calling on him, listen, we have come to fetch, or we want the hand of Martin and they should have asked it from him, because he is the leader in that area.  You said he should communicate with the leadership, the channels?
MR R.B. CELE: That act of shouting was not really communicating with him, because they could have done it properly.  What they did, they insulted him, they also shouted.  What they should have done was to come to his home, approach him in a proper manner and discussed the matter with him.  That was not how they were supposed to do it.

ADV DE JAGER: But weren't they prevented by the community from coming to his home, they were on their way to his home and then they were prevented from coming to him?
MR R.B. CELE: It was their attitude, the utterances that they had made, they had specifically said that they had come to fetch these from Thulani.  If they had come in a proper way and said that they wanted to communicate with Thulani, they would have done so, but the community's reaction was because of their attitude.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it your evidence therefore, I know we actually are taking Mr Molohlanye's action here, he should be presenting his evidence in chief, but are you suggesting that because they did not follow your expected line of communication, the community became angry and reacted in the manner they did, simply because they did not follow a particular procedure that you expected them to have followed?
MR R.B. CELE: No, that was not the reason why the community became annoyed.  I was just explaining this with regards to the question that I asked them.  I asked them if they had tried to communicate with the community through the correct channels and they said no, they had not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, the ball is in your court, sir.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   You asked the questions and other members of your community asked these people.  What happened after that questioning?
MR R.B. CELE: We discovered that their intention of being in the area was to attack and then a decision was taken that they should be lashed.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Who took the decision, were you part of the decision makers?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I was present.  The entire community was present.  The structure stepped aside and they decided on how many lashes should be administered.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Did you administer any lashes after the structure had met and come up with the sentence?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did.

MR MOLOHLANYE: After punishing these people, what happened?
MR R.B. CELE: After they had been lashed, they were informed that they should leave the area.  They then requested to go via Mr Amos Cele's home to collect their belongings.  After they had left to go to Mr Cele's house, comrades from Amadiqwe arrived in a kombi.  They found that at that spot where the tribunal had been held, some people had left the spot, but there were some still remaining.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can I interrupt, according to the last witness, these people were sjamboked and thereafter Dudu was fetched.  Do you have any knowledge of that or was she part of the people, the group when they were punished?
MR R.B. CELE: Dudu was not present when the first group was fetched.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Molohlanye?  Won't you canvass exactly, he is applying for amnesty for public violence, what is it that he personally did?  You seem to be moving away now from that act and we are getting on to another act without having canvassed the fact fully in respect of that.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.  Dudu was fetched, did you administer any punishment on Dudu?

CHAIRPERSON: Before Dudu was fetched, what did he do?  What did he do to the people that were questioned prior to Dudu being fetched?

MR MOLOHLANYE: I think I have already asked him the question and then he mentioned, he made it clear that he also administered the slashing and the lashing, the beating of the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, to who, how many?  We need details in respect there of.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   You are saying you were also part of the people who administered the lashing on the group, how many people did you assault yourself?
MR R.B. CELE: I do not remember exactly, I just remember Bonny as well as another dark guy from Umlazi, who had been wearing jeans.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You don't remember how many strokes you gave to Bonny or the other guy?
MR R.B. CELE: No, I cannot remember because a lot of people partook in the lashing of those people.  There were about 600 people present.  You would give them a lash and give the sjambok to another person until they had received their number that had been decided upon.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did this lashing last in terms of seconds or minutes, can you estimate?
MR R.B. CELE: I cannot recall how long it took.   I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were lashed by this large group of 600 people?
MR R.B. CELE: Although I cannot remember correctly, but I think there were seven males and another two females, Zodwa and Nana.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you administer any lashes to Zodwa and Nana?
MR R.B. CELE: I did not take part in lashing them.

CHAIRPERSON: You were part of a group were you not?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And a decision had been taken to administer lashes on all those people who were at the hill, is it not so?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on what basis did you decide to administer lashes on the two women who had voluntarily accompanied the other persons, the seven males you have alluded to?
MR R.B. CELE: The reason why they were lashed was their behaviour , they showed disrespect for the meeting.  They were disrespectful, disturbing the proceedings as well as trying to defend their brother and these other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only reason a decision was taken to administer lashes as far as they are concerned?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, indeed, that was the reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   After Dudu was fetched, did you administer any lashes on her?
MR R.B. CELE: No, I did not.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So, after Dudu was punished, as you said earlier, a kombi from Amadiqwe arrived.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may we just get back to the Dudu - what was your involvement, why do you apply for the amnesty for the assault on Dudu, what was your role, only participating in the decision?  I don't think you have led that evidence?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Honourable Member, I think we are applying for that participation because he was acting in concert, he was part of the decision making to the beating and assaulting of Dudu.

MR MALAN: Exactly, but what was his role?  Can you canvass his role in that act, acting in concert to the full please.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We must highlight that we haven't as yet heard any facts with regard to the decision, that he was party to the decision that said Dudu must be assaulted.  I don't have any such evidence before me.  It is actually the other way, the decision was to kill her, so you haven't led evidence with regard to him having participated in any decision that said Dudu must be assaulted, even if he didn't physically participate in the assault itself.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.  Can you please, Mr Cele, Roy, just tell the Committee what made the people or part of the group to go and fetch Dudu?