Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR DIAZ: That is true, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee.  What I'm endeavouring to achieve here is to show that the applicant's earlier admission including his affidavit does not come anywhere near an admission of the death of Mandla Mkhize.  His application is based upon a peripheral role of having pointed out Mr Mandla Mkhize, when in fact he made admissions to directly having killed him.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) he's been consistent with his denial.  He didn't say in court these words.  She says she heard him say these words and the court believed her evidence and on the basis of her evidence he was convicted.  You're now questioning him about this and he's saying, she may say so but I didn't utter these words.  Where do you take it from there?

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, I take you point, I accept what you say - that is true.  I would simply have to leave it to evidence that would have ...(inaudible), thank you.
	Mr Hlope, do you recall the existence of two cassettes in which was recorded your voice wherein you admitted to having directly killed Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala but wherein you indicated that your role as regards the killing of Zazi Kuzwayo and Kushana Kuzwayo was purely to the extent of having pointed the latter two out?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do remember the two cassettes that were played by Warrant Officer Magaza.  He did play those cassettes, I do remember them.

MR DIAZ: Do you stand by what was contained in that cassette as being correct?

MR HLOPE: Even though they played those cassettes, I did not hear properly what was being said because they were not audible because the voice there was clear that the person was drunk.   Whoever was talking there was drunk.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Warrant Officer please? ...(inaudible) by Warrant Officer who?

MR DIAZ: Sorry Mr Chairman?

MR HLOPE: It's Wilson Magaza, former Detective Wilson Magaza.

MR DIAZ: Do you deny that you were recorded on that cassette?

MR HLOPE: I do not deny that.

MR DIAZ: Did you ever make an admission on that cassette or any other cassette that Mr Frank Dutton had, admitting that you had killed Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala?

MR HLOPE: I do not remember admitting to Frank Dutton but I'm explaining with regard to the cassette.  I say I do admit that I know something about the cassette but I cannot expatiate in that because I was drunk.

MR DIAZ: Sorry, were you drunk at the time you were listening to the cassette?

MR HLOPE: At the time that I was listening to the cassette I realised that, that was my voice but at the time that I was recorded, I was drunk.  That was my voice in the cassette.

MR DIAZ: But however drunk you may have been at the time the recording took place, you do not deny that on that cassette is contained an admission by you that you directly killed Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala?

MR HLOPE: I can't hear your question well, could you repeat that please?

MR DIAZ: I said, however drunk you may been ...(intervention)  Sorry, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DIAZ: Inability to hear on his headphones.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: He can't hear.

MR HLOPE: No English translation.

INTERPRETER: He still can't hear.

MR DIAZ: He's complaining that he still cannot hear.

ADV DE JAGER: Nothing has been said in the meantime that he could have heard since it's been put back on the table.

INTERPRETER: He can't hear.

MR DIAZ: Can you hear me now?

MR HLOPE: No English translation.

MR DIAZ: The question is this Mr Hlope, ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: He can't hear, he's hearing the speaker on the floor but he can't hear the translation from the booth.   Now that is correct, he can hear.

MR DIAZ: Mr Hlope, can you hear me now?

INTERPRETER: He can't hear the translation from the booth.

MR DIAZ: Can you hear me now?  Can you hear me now?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I can hear.

MR DIAZ: Can you hear me now?  Good.  My question is this, however drunk you may have been at the time the recording took place, do you deny that what was contained in the cassette was an admission by you that you had directly caused the death of Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Diaz, before proceeding, were these cassettes admitted as evidence in court?

MR DIAZ: Sorry Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I'm not fully familiar with what happened at the trial and to the extent that this set of documents may well contain aspects of the trial, I have not really gone through them and familiarised myself with it but my instructions from Mrs Mkhize is that these cassettes were given to her, she listened to these cassettes and she would testify about the contents of those cassettes.

ADV DE JAGER: But they've been ruled inadmissible, could it be admissible before us?

MR DIAZ: Acting on the premise that were ruled inadmissible, I see the difficulties in that regard except that inevitably that's going to be the evidence of Mrs Mkhize nonetheless.  And to that extent even if dealing purely with the credibility issues, I thought I should deal with the applicant or have the applicant answer to aspects in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the Committee.
	Mr Hlope, I didn't hear  your answer to that question, I presume you didn't answer it yet.

MR HLOPE: I did hear the question.  What I'm going to say to you is that as I've already explained, I cannot explain with regard to the cassette.  Maybe Ndjali Djali can tell you as to what happened because I cannot speak with regard to the cassette, the voice in there was mine but I cannot explain as to how my voice was taped - when was the conversation - when did the conversation take place and what was happening.

MR DIAZ: ...(inaudible) put it to you that you're pretending ignorance, you're pretending not to recall what the contents of the cassettes were.  I want to put it to you clearly that you remember very clear that you had made a complete open admission on the direct killing of Mr Mandla Mkhize and Mrs Shabalala.

MR HLOPE: That is up to you, I have taken an oath before this Commission and I'm not going to lie before the Commission.  It is up to you to force me to say anything that I do not want to say.

MR DIAZ: Mrs Mkhize in any case will say that when she heard the cassettes, she heard you speak crisply and clearly, not in a voice that sounded as though you were under any drunken stupor and in addition that  you had made these admissions as I'd earlier set out.

MR HLOPE: I do hear that.

MR DIAZ: Mr Hlope, you talked about Mr Mkhize the late, having had a tenant in the person of an old lady who had called constantly to Djamile and given information about ANC and UDF meetings at Djamile's place sorry, at Mr Mkhize's place, do you recall that?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do remember that.

MR DIAZ: Mrs Mkhize instructed me that there was no old lady that she ever had as a tenant and particularly not during the lifetime of the late Mr Mkhize.

MR HLOPE: I say there was an old lady because at times we used to ferry her from that place to Djamile's place.  I say she was there, maybe she had no knowledge thereof but I do.

MR DIAZ: ...(inaudible) when the -sorry, do you recall that when the Chairman questioned you about the death of Mr Mkhize, you agreed that however much you may have participated in the death of Mr Mkhize, yours was not politically motivated?

MR HLOPE: Could you repeat that question once more?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DIAZ: Yes, I agree Mr Chairman.  Mr Hlope, what I want to show is this, you did not know of any political involvement as regards Mr Mkhize.

MR HLOPE: Yes, I was a member of the IFP, I was in the IFP Youth Brigade.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is not that, the question is you did not know anything about Mr Mkhize's political involvement, you yourself did not know anything, that's the question.