Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DR BASSON: Again I want to repeat, Chairperson, that I was not responsible as leader of this project for everything that happened, there were several people involved in the training teams, so the instructors who are available who use these things on a daily basis, and for the layman this list must look very impressive, but in fact it's just basic chemicals which could have been obtained at any specific place.   Some of these people could have gone and done it on their own, but on our side, the reception side, there would have been a record when we received these things and how we used them.   So within the limits which is placed on such a structure, we were happy that there was efficient control of these substances.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, just give us an example of what experiments you would carry out with 50 capsules of cyanide?

DR BASSON: I cannot remember the specific case, and I can also not comment on this right now, there are several training techniques which cyanide could have been used for.  Remember Roodeplaat did some capsuling.   I remember at one point we were doing specific work on free radical poisons which were invented by the Russians, where we used cyanide as a model for the treatment thereof, but further, except for that, I cannot remember.   The capsuling could have been done only because it was a measure to dose and then it enabled the researchers not to have to go and look at the doses the whole time.

MR VALLY: You see, we have the advantage of having heard evidence from the doctor who manufactured this, Dr Odendal, and from the doctor who delivered the substances, we have his affidavit, Dr Immelman.   Besides the cholera which would cause an academic, according to the evidence given to us by Dr Odendal, a lot of the other substances on this list could very easily kill quite a few people.   Sure, it may not be thousands, but certainly a lot of these were lethal items.   Would you accept that?

DR BASSON: Chairperson, I'm glad we're moving away from the level of genocide, so you're getting towards a smaller scale here. I'd once again like to repeat what I've said to Mr Vally, and I don't know how to make it more clear, I do not think that Dr Odendal would have prepared cyanide capsules, I don't think he actually knows how to make cyanide.   As far as the rest of the stuff is concerned, I once again want to repeat, these chemicals are chemicals you can buy in a shop, you can go and get them.   If we had some sinister need, why would I use Roodeplaat to do this?   There was enough capability in other places without using Roodeplaat.   Roodeplaat was meant to put models there and to do certain research with regards to treatment and antidotes.

MR VALLY: My question is, these items on this list, were they potentially lethal, at least some of them?

DR BASSON: Mr Chairman, I'm going to handle this question in an absurd way. Just as easy as any bottle of Dettol can be potentially poisonous, one bottle of Dettol is more dangerous than Virodene, because it kills the Aids virus, but it also kills the carrier.  To say whether these were potentially lethal is senseless. I can't see why this argument is made.  It's not more potentially lethal than a bottle of Dettol.

MR VALLY: Thank you.   You know I don't think people buy capsules of cyanide over the counter, but let's go on, there seems to be a preoccupation with trying to find substances which are colourless and odourless and are lethal without being traceable in post-mortems, I'm talking about items such as brodifarcum and monansin (?).   What do you say about that?

DR BASSON: Mr Chairman, I'm going to answer that question. I've made out this matter for myself that I will complete TRC52 because we've started with that.   I'm answering that question because it's an expansion of TRC52.   If Mr Vally does not regard it as an expansion of TRC52, I want to tell you that I cannot answer the question because I don't have competent legal counsel. If he can assure me that this is about TRC52, I will continue.
The concept of a colourless, odourless, tasteless substance which can kill people is certainly an ideal which every country in the world has had for years.   We can present documentation with the International Association of Police Chiefs already in the 1970's wrote thick documents how their task has been made difficult by the new generation of chemicals which are odourless and tasteless, thallium acetate can have no taste.  We know that thallium is tasteless because the acid which you add to that, that tastes like vinegar.   Odourless, tasteless is - with the Abiola sterk geval in Nigeria we had the example where some people held a post-mortem on his body, because these various toxins are there, and they said they could not find anything, because there's a large contingent of people who do not believe that.   Every research, and it was part of my duty to protect the South African community or society against such an onslaught. From a defensive point of view, we looked at these substances without odour or taste.  Professor Folb would say that that is just something which one cannot believe easily, there is no such thing as that.  If you look at the research you can find with the right equipment you can trace anything.   Work was done to identify these substances, but it's not something different from work being done world-wide, it wasn't a strange work and there was no preoccupation with this type of work, we did not give preference to this against ordinary defensive measures.

MR VALLY: With respect to your answer, Dr Basson, what would your comment be in relation to what Dr Van Rensburg said, he said,
"The most frequent instruction we obtained from Dr Basson and Dr Swanepoel was to develop something with which you could kill an individual which would make his death resemble a natural death and that something was to be not detectable in a normal forensic laboratory, that was the chief aim of Roodeplaat Research Laboratory's covert side".

DR BASSON: Mr Chairman, the only comment I have is that one day I'm going to write the story of my life, it will be difficult to decide between Lakar(?) and Van Rensburg.   I think Van Rensburg would do a better job than Lakar.

MR VALLY: Well are you saying, because you've just told us earlier that it was a prized after notion to try and find this odourless, colourless toxic or lethal substance, this is what Dr Van Rensburg says?