Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-27

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Could you just give an indication please, Ms Thabethe, as to when the statement was made?  I see it's for your attention, so I presume it's a recent statement, not one that was pulled out of a 1997 file.

MS THABETHE: I actually phoned him today and I asked him to go to the file and give us a report.  Ja, it's just a brief statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Because it's undated, so it would be dated about yesterday or today?

MS THABETHE: Today.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I write that on there.   Would that be Exhibit T?  We'll call it Exhibit T, just so that it's got a place on the record.  This is the statement of Insp Attie Moolan.  Is there any other evidence today then?  No further evidence.
	Mr Wills, we listened to what you said yesterday concerning what Mr Visser said about wanting an opportunity to consult his own experts, and we believe that we shouldn't deny that.  But Mr Visser, you realise ...

MR LAX: Ms Thabethe, this document refers to an exhumation by Dr Naidoo of Durban, not by Dr Aiyer.

MS THABETHE: I can follow it up, because telephonically I spoke about Dr Aiyer, so ...

MR LAX: This doesn't talk about Dr Aiyer, that's why.

MS THABETHE: I can follow it up.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser, you realise that we're now getting towards the end of the process and we'd have to have some sort of terms put down.  You know if you could let us know by, what, 15th of August, two weeks, would that be sufficient?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, there's only one matter which is outstanding before we can talk to Dr Loth, and that is to obtain a copy of the video transmission.  Once we ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the video transmission ...

MR VISSER: Of Tuesday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I don't know how long that will take ...

MR VISSER: We've asked for one.  We haven't received a confirmation as to when we'll get it, but the moment we have that, within a day or two we would be able to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I will keep on this aspect about getting a copy of that transmission.  I was informed, I might say informally, by the Sound Engineer, that a portion was lost, 34 seconds I think, was lost because somebody stood on a cable or something, but apparently, I don't know exactly which portion, but it doesn't have the effect of nullifying anything or ...

MR VISSER: It really dealt with the - as I understand from him, the skull reconstruction evidence, which Prof Venezis said wasn't what he used for the purposes of   ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, about building up the plasticine and that clay ...

MR VISSER: Yes, that's as I understand it, but we'll obviously have to ...

CHAIRPERSON: But that is missing and I suppose if anything vital is missing, we could have a reconstruction from notes.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Chairperson, there's just one last matter, we still have not obtained the last photograph, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh that full front photograph that was blown up, Ms Thabethe, from the passport.  Mr Wills mentioned a pile of them.

MR WILLS: Yes, I saw them downstairs where the photocopier is, Mr Chairperson, so they must ...

CHAIRPERSON: They must be around somewhere.

MS THABETHE: I haven't seen it, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if we can have a copy of that before we leave, please.   And if we could have a copy.  That was Figure 30, was it, I think Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: ;  R30.

CHAIRPERSON: R30.   Yes, so Mr Visser, then I'll do what I can to get that video transcript across to you and then if we could try to work to a deadline, depending on that, of the 15th of August, and then if you could let us know what you wish to do, whether you wish to recall anybody or lead any evidence in this regard or not, and then we'll have to make arrangements from there.

MR VISSER: We are hoping that we need not come back and ask for you to hear evidence, but what we'll probably have to do at the least, would be to draw a report to present to the other interested parties, for them to react to it before that decision can finally be made.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if there's no further evidence.  And there would be the question of argument, and I think perhaps in the circumstances, and from what I've heard from legal representatives, that written Heads will be prepared and then if any of the legal representatives, and if it's at all possible, wishes to have a short hearing to stress certain points that they desire, then hopefully that would be arranged, but that hearing wouldn't last more than a day.  It might be in a place like Pretoria or something like that.

MR VISSER: We would certainly not think that it is necessary to have another hearing, because frankly, to do justice to an argument in this case is not going to finish in a day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  No, but I mean after receiving written Heads.

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why I say it - if it's possible, I don't know if it's possible, but we can try for that if people want it, that they've done Heads and they might want to drive a couple of points home.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, my instructions from the family are that for the purposes of concluding this hearing, it would preferable to have a day or argument, so we will be requesting that.  We will supply Heads and then we will request to address them verbally.

CHAIRPERSON: And we can have that at a convenient time.  We will try to arrange that.  But I think the first step then, it's a little bit unusual, the first step would be to wait to see whether there's going to be further evidence or not.  Mr Visser says there may well not be, but there might be some sort of written report for comments, which would obviously have to be taken into consideration for the Heads, and then we'd have to, because we're coming to the end of the process, have some sort of turn as when Heads should be in.  It's difficult to say that now, because we don't know when the next stage is going to be completed.  But I would urge the legal representatives to start preparing their Heads, I mean there's a lot that can be done without whatever scientific evidence may come.  I'm sure that the bulk of the Heads could be done and can be added on after that further information.
	Mr Lax, you were pointing out to this latest exhibit.

MR LAX: Yes, Chair, I was just going to say that when I read the SAP180, it's clear from that that the remains were handed to Dr Aiyer and not Dr Naidoo, so ...

CHAIRPERSON: So it's clearly just an error in the first, when reference is made to Dr Naidoo.  Yes, well that then brings us to the conclusion of this hearing and I would like to thank everybody who made these hearings here possible, from the Interpreters who worked long and hard, to the Security personnel, despite the fact that we had a laptop computer stolen from our room, but it's not their fault.  The caterers, the Sound Engineers particularly, for having to break down and set up for the video transmission, which was a new experience, and to everybody concerned, Secretaries, Logistic Officers, thank you very much. 	We'll now adjourn, thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS