Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1999-02-02

MR MALAN: I put it to you that the instructions are that Mr Zokwe was left in your custody while Mr Gumengu went a few paces off and then he ran away?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Yes he ran away, Mr Gumengu chased him, but what I disagree with is the fact Mr Gumengu left him with us because after Mr Zokwe went out of the car I also went out of the car and I took my R1.

MR MALAN: Right.  How far from the car was this incident.

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I think it's about 50 metres from the car to the dongas.

MR MALAN: And you couldn't see nothing there?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: From the car to the edge of the dongas you could see but when they were in the dongas I could not see what was happening.

MR MALAN: So what's happened there you cannot assist this Committee with on your own experience?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: No.

MR MALAN: One of the last questions that I would like to pose to you Sir is why did you leave the body there?  He was under your custody, something happened apparently to you, he's trying to take the firearm off an officer, he defended himself, he was shot and killed according to your instructions, why did you leave him just there in the veld?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: At first I thought that Mr Gumengu was going to report this to the commander that was in Umtata.  I don't know whether he had reported this or not.  As a Sergeant I expected him to do that so he was not to be given instructions by me but I expected him to do that.

MR MALAN: Sir, but that's the problem, you are of equal rank, something transpired before your eyes so to speak and you didn't even make an effort to go and look at the corpse for that purpose or to leave somebody at the crime scene while the other people are trying to get the authorities there?  That sounds unacceptable.

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: That is why I'm saying it was Gumengu's duty as the person who had done this.

MR MALAN: But why didn't you follow it up?  You were - surely they will expect some statements from you, you were involved in it?  You were not that a novice, I suppose?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I expected to happen that way but nobody came to me to ask for a statement.  I expected that somebody would report this incident.

MR MALAN: Sir, with all due respect, it seems to me that you were in on this violation of human rights to get rid of Mr Zokwe and you're trying to cover yourself because that's not the procedure and you know it as well as I do?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I had mentioned that Sthembele, we wanted arms from him, there is nothing else I knew except that and I was not involved in his shooting, it was Mr Gumengu who did that so there is nothing that involves me in his shooting.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, but we hear that you're not involved in the shooting in the sense that you didn't pull the trigger yourself, but surely you knew that the deceased had been shot, you are a policeman or were a policeman, didn't you mention it to any of your superiors that evening or the next morning, look, you know, I went out, we arrested somebody and he got shot and we just left him in the veld at a quarry.  Didn't you mention it to any of your colleagues or seniors?  I don't care whether you were not involved yourself in pulling the trigger but as a policeman?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I thought that that was Gumengu's duty and when we arrived in Butterworth I went back home as I had planned to go back home.  I had thought that over weekend he had reported that to our commander or to the office.

MR MALAN: Thank you.  On the 19th, August 1999, I've got a hand-written statement, I don't know if it's in your own handwriting, Sir, page 7 of that document that you have in front of you.

JUDGE MILLER: It's the unsigned statement?

MR MALAN: Correct, correct.  It starts on page 7.  I went through it very briefly.  Let me first establish, did you write it down, is it your handwriting?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Alright, unless you can show me where it is, I fail to see where you report at any stage or any other affidavit or statement that Mr Gumengu came to you and say listen, this was my orders to kill the guy.  Why didn't you reveal it in your statements?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: This was a rough statement.  Somebody came to me asking for this statement and then he said that he was going to come back so this was just a rough statement, that is why it is not even signed.  I told this person that if there are things that I have forgotten I would add them when he had come back but he did not come back.

MR MALAN: Sir, with the greatest respect, even if it is a rough statement, this is a paramount fact of such importance that here you are willing to advance a lie that you know it is a lie, he was not trying to get hold of his firearm but you learnt that it was part and parcel of his instructions to kill him and you didn't reveal it?  At no other point in time?  Why didn't you make a supplementary affidavit or reveal it to the authorities?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: He told me that he had shot him per instructions after I had resigned from the police after I had left the police?

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Malan, if you take a look at page 11 of the statement, page 11 not of the statement, page 4 of the statement, it says - you're talking about Mr Gumengu being in an anti-terrorist squad, etc.
	" He even mentioned that he had a task to eliminate Zokwe."

MR MALAN: What page is that?

JUDGE MILLER: Page 11.
	"Ultimately I heard that they shot Zokwe at his home."

MR MALAN: Thank you for that, Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: So he did mention that, he told him that.

MR MALAN: Thank you Sir, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malan.  Mr Mnqandi?

MR MNQANDI: Thank you Chairperson I don't have any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Has the Panel got any questions?

JUDGE MILLER: You said when you first apprehended Mr Zokwe, when you started questioning him about arms and he says that he had spoken to Brig Dingane about that.  Who is Brig Dingane?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: He was the head of the Security Branch here in Umtata at our head office.

JUDGE MILLER: So why should he have spoken to Brig Dingane about that?  We've heard evidence that he was wanted, he had to be killed rather than being arrested?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I talk that as the truth because when he was arrested for being a member of MK, Brig Dingane had instructed me to arrest him so he could have spoken with him at that time.

JUDGE MILLER: Why wasn't any attempt made after the shooting to find the arms in the dynamite house or wherever you were going to get them from?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I can say that that was a failure on our side because the person who was going to point these arms for us he was no longer there with us.

JUDGE MILLER: You said that it was after 10 o'clock at night, if you in those circumstances wanted to relieve yourself would you have walked 50 metres, you said the car was 50 metres from the donga, would you have walked 50 metres to the donga to go and relieve yourself?  Was there any reason to do that?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: No, I don't see a reason for that.

JUDGE MILLER: There weren't people around there were there?  Other people, strange people, residents, weren't people walking around or close by?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I did not see anyone so I cannot be sure.

JUDGE MILLER: And you then resigned from the police before Mr Zokwe was killed, is that correct?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: That is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Before the deceased agreed to go and point out the firearms was there any pressure put on him, was he tortured or did he merely volunteer to cooperate with the police?