Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

CHAIRPERSON: Today we will be commencing with the hearing involving the death of Nthombi Khubeka.  I apologise for the late start.  Before we start I'd just like to briefly introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Adv Francis Bosman.  She is a member of the Amnesty Committee and comes from the Cape.  On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, he is also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and I am attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court.  The proceedings will be simultaneously translated to Afrikaans and Zulu and English.  If you wish to benefit from the translation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices.  They are available from the sound technician, so if you want to benefit from the translation, please get one of these sets of ear phones from the sound technician.
	I would, at this stage, request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, good morning.  May it please you and the members of your Committee, L. Visser instructed by Wagener Muller.  I appear, Mr Chairman, for 5 of the applicants.  On the cover sheet of the original bundle it is numbers 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 which is Botha, du Preez, van der Westhuizen, Wasserman and Visagie.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, Christo Nel.  I appear on behalf of the late Col Andy Taylor and I also appear on behalf of a person who is not an amnesty applicant but an implicated party, name  Vusimuzi Myeza.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairman, my name is Francois van der Merwe.  I appear on behalf of the amnesty applicant, No 8, A D Baker.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Merwe.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Schalk Hugo, I'm appearing on behalf of the applicant Mr Radebe and also an implicated party, Mr Eugene de Kock, in as far as it may be necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hugo.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am Mr Raymond Samuel, I appear on behalf of the implicated party Zola Mbane, also known as Jimmy.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, Committee Members, I am John Wills.  I represent the Khubeka family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.

MS THABETHE: Thank you members of the Committee, I'm Thabile Thabethe, the Evidence Leader for the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.  Mr Samuel, I notice from the documentation that has been placed before us with regard to Mr Mbane, he appears in the documentation as Applicant no 10, but in the bundle there is no application form.  What is the position, please?

MR SAMUEL: I confirm what the Chairman has just outlined.  The position is that although Mr Mbane was initially regarded as an applicant in this matter, no formal application was lodged with the Committee, neither will any such application be made.  Mr Mbane's position is that he would like to be a witness in this matter in regard to the happenings in regard to the deceased in the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so am I correct in saying that he's not applying for amnesty and his presence here is basically that of an implicated person?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, thank you.  Mr Visser said he's appearing for applicants number 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, Mr Nel for number 1,  Mr van der Merwe for number 8, Mr Hugo for number 9 and there seems to be no one for applicant number 7.  Does any body know if applicant number 7, that is Marthinus David Ras (Jnr.) has any representation?

MS THABETHE: If I can be of assistance to the Committee, I was informed by our Cape Town office that Mr Julian Knight who was representing Mr Ras has withdrawn his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.  Yes, I think if we can now commence with the leading of evidence.  Who will be testifying first?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Col Botha will testify first. but with your permission, well perhaps he can be sworn and then I just wish to address you very briefly by way of introduction,  Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there are a few matters which I wish to raise now and get it done with, so to speak.  The first matter, Chairperson, relates to the bundles before you.  You would have noticed that there was an original bundle which dealt with the incident, abduction of the death of Nthombi Kahiso Khubeka and then there was a second one which is headed exactly the same.  In order Chairperson to avoid confusion and for the sake of ease of reference, may I submit that the first bundle, Chairperson, should be marked bundle 1?

CHAIRPERSON: That's the bundle containing the application forms, the thinner of the two bundles?

MR VISSER: Just so.  Yes, Mr Chairman, if that could be marked bundle 1, it would assist in reference and the other one then, which is I see now headed additional bundle, that should be bundle 2, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that would be a good idea.  Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, then another housekeeping matter is we wish to place before you again the "Algemene Agtergrond tot Amnestie Aansoeke" which has been serving before Amnesty Committees as Exhibit A.  Chairperson, during the last hearing we had attached to Exhibit A, an Exhibit B and C, dealing with Operation Vula.  Those documents will not be strictly relevant to the present case and we submit that those can be left away.  Mr Chairman then if I may direct your attention...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed, does anyone have any objection to the "Agtergrond" that's the document referred to by Mr Visser, as going in as Exhibit A?  Yes. that will then be Exhibit A.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman and then perhaps a little bit out of turn now, but dealing with all the housekeeping matters, Mr Chairman, may I refer you to bundle 1 as it is now marked, page 67?  You will there observe the application for amnesty by Roelof Braam Visagie and at page 73 of that bundle he deals with the incident that you are about to commence hearing, Chairperson.  His part in this incident Chairperson, is extremely peripheral and he applies for amnesty only for such offences as were committed in regard to the disposal of the dead body of Mrs Khubeka and nothing else, which would be defeating the ends of justice and perhaps contravention of certain statutory provisions.  Mr Chairperson the problem with Mr Visagie is that he is in the United States on what we understand to be a semi-permanent basis and could not make himself available to attend these hearings at this time.  I may mention to you, Mr Chairman, this was also the position when the amnesty application in regard to Portia Ndwandwe was heard by another amnesty application, where also in that instance his contribution was very peripheral.  Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that on his own application, he did not commit any offence which can be stated to be a human rights violation, a gross human rights violation, we would apply to you, Mr Chairman, that you consider his application in terms of Section 19 sub-section (3) sub-section (b), sub-section (iii) which gives you the authority where there is not a gross violation of human rights, to dispose of such applications in chambers, in those circumstances.  Mr Chairman I may add that it has occurred in previous amnesty applications, the same avenue was followed.  I can refer you, Mr Chairman, to certain - I made a note somewhere, it was Mr John Adam in the London Bomb, which was a non-gross human rights violation and Mr Deon Greyling in the Cosatu matter and again Mr Douw Willemse in the Cosatu matter, so there is precedent for this to happen, Mr Chairman.
	We will, as far as we can, give evidence as to what his role was, but I can tell you now already, nobody really remembers that he was anywhere near the scene.