Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: And then Chaka himself, he never tortured or assaulted you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No he just threatened me.

MR LOWIES: And Rooikop did he ever in his life - wait - did he ever in his life threaten you?  I'm talking about threats?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said Rooikop did not speak to me.  He did not say anything at Vereeniging, it was only Peens and Chaka who talked to me then.

MR LOWIES: Were you ever assaulted or tortured in any manner at any time by Rooikop or where he was present?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have responded to that question before, I just did before that Rooikop has never tortured me.

CHAIRPERSON: No, in his presence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I do not remember, I remember him being at Boipatong only.

MR LOWIES: So you were never present or according to you he was never present when you were tortured?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember him being present.

MR LOWIES: When did you meet Chaka for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I knew him from the Grambies, he was residing at Zone 6 at Sebokeng and from there he went to live in Vanderbijlpark.

MR LOWIES: Did he ever arrest you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that question?

MR LOWIES: Were you ever arrested by Mr Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember well, maybe he picked me up from Parys but I don't remember him arresting me.

MR LOWIES: So you know Chaka from before the Boipatong Massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: It would seem to me then that at least pertaining to Chaka, that he was involved in the investigation of the drive by shooting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know, what I know is that Havenga who was the person who handled the investigation, I did not see Chaka, I did not know about him.  There were many incidents that occurred in Sebokeng but the person who handled my Sebokeng case was Havenga.

MR LOWIES: The reason why I'm asking is, in one of your affidavits you state the following and I would just like to check the correctness with you.  Page 20 of Exhibit R paragraph 14, Mr Chairman.  I quote
"I knew Chaka because he once came to fetch from Parys Police Station where I had been arrested for car theft.  Chaka took me to Vereeniging Police Station where I was kept for two weeks before taken to court and released."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that the one person who came to fetch me from Parys was Chaka, I was not seeing him for the first time, I knew him from Zone 6, Sebokeng not that he was seeing me for the first time in Parys.

MR LOWIES: You see the reason why I'm asking you this further is contradictory slightly to what you say because it appears from paragraph 14 that the first time that you met him or the reason why you met him was because he once came to fetch you from the police station and that was why you knew him, according to this statement.  Nothing in this statement stating that I know him because I know also where he resides and I saw him there.  Can you maybe explain this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Maybe it's the problems with the interpretation.  I am saying I knew Chaka at the time when he was residing in Zone 6 where he was a Green Beans or a member of the Green Beans.  Yes it is Chaka who fetched me from Parys.  Green Beans are the Municipality Police who would later on graduate to become members of the South African Police.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, when did you meet Mr Peens for the first time?  Very first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He usually arrested me, I saw him around the hostel or at the hostel in the presence of ...(indistinct)

MR LOWIES: Now you have to explain ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw him in the presence of Gatese during the day at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: No but you said he usually arrested me, what do you mean by that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He would arrest me and I would be released but I used to see him, I saw him in the presence of Gadise in the hostel.

MR LOWIES: No but let's talk about these arrests of you.  When were you first arrested by Peens and for what?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember well, it pertained to a vehicle.

MR LOWIES: And on how many occasions were you arrested by Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Could have been twice or once.

MR LOWIES: It must be more than once because you said he usually arrested me.  Think again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think I made a mistake.  He arrested me for the first time and arrested me after some time, I cannot recall exactly when.

MR LOWIES: Now the first time that you were arrested you say you think it was in connection with a motor car.  The second time?  What was it in connection with?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was robbery.

MR LOWIES: And this all happened prior to Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was still staying in the township at the time before I had actually went to the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Rooikop, when did you meet him for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I started to know him when we attacked Boipatong in the evening on the 17th, I saw him at the veld near Serela.

MR LOWIES: Danie, when did you meet him for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw him at an Inkatha meeting at the hostel.  He had come with Themba Khosa.

MR LOWIES: When was that?  In June 1992 or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes it was in June, even though I cannot recall the month.

MR LOWIES: How many times after that did you see him?  I'm talking about Danie?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw him at the hostel meeting and saw him at the time when we were attacking Boipatong that evening of the 17th June.

MR LOWIES: Did Peens torture you in connection with the motor car theft case?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, one could not have escaped torture from Peens.  Even though I cannot remember exactly as what happened in my case but one could not have escaped torture from these people.

MR LOWIES: I'm talking about Peens, you should not blame Peens for stuff, things that other people did, I'm talking about Peens, did Peens torture you in connection with the motor car theft, yes or no?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes because he is the one who was in charge of the group, he was torturing me.

CHAIRPERSON: Peens, did he torture you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes he did pertaining to the stolen vehicle that's when they put a tube on me and applied some electric shock on me, they put something on my nails, on my fingers.

CHAIRPERSON: Who else was present when Peens tortured you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were many other people with whom I was arrested, they too were being tortured.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you say Peens, you've described how Peens tortured you, who else was, you know?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Other police who were present were Chaka.  There's one other police called Abe.

CHAIRPERSON: Rooikop, was he there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes he was present but he did not lay his hand on me.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you told us a minute ago that Peens and Chaka had never tortured you before that wasn't correct was it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I think I made a mistake because he did not ask me about Peens, he asked me as to when I started to know Peens and Chaka and I explained to him as to how I came to know them and where he resided.  He did not explain it to me accordingly.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, you are telling lies.  I specifically asked you did Peens ever torture you.  You said no.  Now we hear one could not have escaped torture by Peens.  Those two statements cannot both be the truth.  What is the truth?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You did not ask me as to that, you asked me where I knew or met Peens for the first time.  He did not torture me when we discussed or when I was being questioned about the Boipatong incident.