Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

ADV MEMANI: It is not my understanding of the Law M'Lord, my understanding of the Law is that a policeman has got a duty to stop an unlawful assault on a citizen.

UNKNOWN: Well, he never applied to be granted amnesty in respect of him not fulfilling his duty to stop assaults on other people, there's no such application before us.

ADV MEMANI: There is that application Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: It's only in connection with assaults he himself committed.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the reason why Molefe was included is because of that fact.  It has always been my instructions that Mr Motsamai did not physically participate in the assaults and I as lawyer interpreted the circumstances to be such, that he needs to apply for amnesty for assaulting this person because he failed to stop an assault on a person.

CHAIRPERSON: I revert to what I said earlier, I think we should go on with Mr Visser's witnesses now, there my be other incidents that emerge which you wish to clarify with your client.  I do not think there's a desire to re-call him at this stage.  We have the evidence.  If Mr Visser wants to investigate it he can do so and you can call your client to clarify the fact that he was present and did nothing, after we've heard Mr Visser's evidence with clients.    You can renew your application then, I do not consider this an appropriate time.

MR VISSER: Just very briefly, you can imagine that we have problems of organisation here to keep all these witnesses here.  What we've decided to do in order to expedite matters, we intend to call the short witnesses first and get rid of the bulk of the bulk of the people and leave the material witnesses, as we would like to refer to them, on all the incidents later and that will only happen next week Mr Chairman.  I first of all call Mr Mbanjani.  It is spelt M-b-a-n-j-a-n-i.  He has filed an affidavit, it is in bundle B at page 26 and 27.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Mbanjani, are your full names Zanele: Z-a-n-e-l-e, Petrus, Mbanjani, M-b-a-n-j-a-n-i, is that correct?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes.

MR VISSER: At the moment are you no longer associated with the police?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: Could that perhaps be repeated please?
EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WITH CHANNELS

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You are a taxi owner in Bloemfontein, not so?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: When were you associated with the South African Police, between which years?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I started to be a policeman on the 7th October 1960.

MR VISSER: Were you ever associated with the security branch here in Bloemfontein?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: From 1966 I started to work with the security branch.

MR VISSER: And until which date did this go?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Up to the 30th December 1982, 1992 sorry.

MR VISSER: Specifically the period between '86 and 1992, what were your duties then?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: From 1986 and 1992 I was working administrative work.
[Transcriber experience problems with sound on channel, first words of speaker not always audible]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] confirm his affidavit.

MR VISSER: May I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And then you can lead him on any other points you wish to.

MR VISSER: Yes.  It is not really quite that simple Mr Chairman because part his answers, probable answers in cross-examination is going to rely on these dates.  I thought it may be just better to spend a little time, just let him give this evidence but if you - I'm quite willing to do it that way Mr Chairman, as long as he's not criticised for it later.
	The affidavit which you gave, did ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: Not audible.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Brink.
	Is that the affidavit which has been placed in front of  you?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is my affidavit Sir.

MR VISSER: Is that your handwriting that appears on it?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is my handwriting Sir.

MR VISSER: And do you confirm the facts in that affidavit?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I wrote the affidavit, then I agree with all the facts in there.

MR VISSER: Is it correct that as from 1986 to 1992 you were employed in an administrative capacity in Bloemfontein?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct, that is 1986 up to the time I went on pension in 1992.

MR VISSER: Just before '86, where were  you then?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Before 1986 I was working at T'Banachu, Tweespruit, Excelcior and I worked again in Botshabelo.

MR VISSER: I want to ask you specifically about the period that you spent in Botshabelo.  What were your duties there?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: My work there was mainly about enquiries which were in Botshabelo.

MR VISSER: I'm going to change to English as it might save time.
	Would it be correct, as has been suggested, that there was a  sub-unit of the security branch of Bloemfontein placed at Botshabelo Police Station, would that be correct?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Who did it that sub-unit consist of?  Who was the commander?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: When it started I was under Captain Coetzee.  After some time Warrant Officer van den Berg took over, then I was under him.

MR VISSER: Who was the assistant commander?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: It was myself, I was helping van den Berg.

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible] members of that sub-unit that you worked with?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: We were together with Sergeant Kotze and Sergeant Padi - P-a-d-i.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: Kotze Mr Chairman, K-o-t-z-e.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Mbanjani, with what rank did you leave the police?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I was warrant officer.

MR VISSER: Insofar as it has been suggested in these applications by any witness or any applicant that you committed acts, illegal or unlawful acts, what do you say about that?  While you were a policeman, what do you say about that?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I'm surprised, I'm scared that there were things  that I did, I'm even ashamed.  Not at all, my spirit is as white as a shirt, as a white shirt.

CHAIRPERSON: By that, do I understand you to say that you did not commit any unlawful acts, that you were as pure as the driven snow?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Not at all, I haven't done anything to any person.

MR VISSER: You followed the straight and narrow road, is that what  you're saying?
	Thank you Mr Chairman.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.  I have reasons which I may put forward why I followed - I have a desire that I should put those reasons now.

MR VISSER: Mr Mbanjani, perhaps you can end with them.  I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	You know Mr Ngo, is that right?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I didn't know him a lot, I was working in Bloemfontein offices.  Where I working you would not be able to meet these members.

MR DU PLESSIS: All I actually want to know is, did you have any contact with Mr Ngo after he left Bloemfontein to go to Pretoria?  Did you ever speak to him after he left Bloemfontein to go to Pretoria?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: From Bloemfontein here - I'm not even able to recognise his voice.  I was not able to be in contact with him.  Where I was working, our offices were closed and I had my ...[indistinct].  I didn't have time to work with other members except old members whom I used to work with before he arrived.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Mbanjani, before you came here you consulted with your lawyers, isn't it?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And they told you what the allegations against you are?