Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

ADV MEMANI: Now, I put it to you that all of you, including Motsamai, chased Oupa and some of you shot at him and neither of you cared whether or not Oupa would die as a result.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is not correct Sir, I was not after Oupa Makubalo, I was remaining at the car and I did not shoot.

ADV MEMANI: And that you were also present when he was assaulted after his arrest and ...[indistinct] on the assault on him.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is not correct Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman I will withdraw the last part which says he participated in the assault, I'm not so sure now.  Those are my questions Chairperson.  Just one second Chairperson.
	Now, Mr Lesale at the time when you saw Ngo at the police station for about two to three months, he used to carry a gun.  Do you remember that?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I saw him at the offices of the security branch not in the police station.  It is true I saw a pistol on his person, a small one.

ADV MEMANI: And student constables were not allowed to carry firearms.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Sir, myself, even before I went to Hammanskraal, I was not allowed to carry a gun or anything that can harm.  I always worked under a person who is the senior, who has been to the college already.

ADV MEMANI: And lastly, did you have differences with Motsamai?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is not so Sir, Motsamai is my friend, my big friend.  His family, his children up to the day, we've never had problems.

ADV MEMANI: No further questions Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I'm afraid I'm compelled to ask your indulgence to stand down for a short while to allow me to regroup.  I did not realise we would go this quickly today I must apologise, just to see which witnesses are here and just get myself organised. It won't take long, ten minutes perhaps Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: Yes.  You did say yesterday Mr Chairman that if we get a gap a little earlier on, you might consider that we could adjourn earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: That's what I want to check Mr Chairman.  I don't think I've got a short witness here unfortunately.  I will try to find a short witness unfortunately......

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: I will try to find a short witness, if I can't I'll inform you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may it please you, the next witness which we present has filed an affidavit which is bound in bundle B at page 100.  The witness Pekani Petrus Miningwa.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr Miningwa, is your surname spelt  M-i-n-i-n-g-w-a?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And your christian names: P-h-i-k-a-n-i, Phikani, Petrus?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct Sir.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct that last year you became aware that you were being implicated by Mr Motsamai in certain alleged illegal acts?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct Sir.

UNKNOWN: Did you then sign this affidavit before Mr Wagener and is a copy of that affidavit before you now?  I'm sorry that's not correctly put.  Did you go and speak to the attorney Mr Wagener and make an affidavit of which a copy is before you now?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is so Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Would you confirm the correctness and the truthfulness of the contents of that affidavit now in your evidence as well?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

UNKNOWN: 100 Mr Chairman.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  	Now is it true that Mr Motsamai implicates you in two instances - and that would be paragraphs 6 and 14 at page 147 and 148 Mr Chairman of bundle A.  To refresh your memory I will read to you what Mr Motsamai had said.  He said: he, Mamome, Constable Lesale, Constable Miningwa petrol bombed the parental home of Citi Mzuzwana.  Now is there any truth in this allegation?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: No, I do not know such a thing.

UNKNOWN: When did you join the police Mr Miningwa?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I joined the police in 1981 on the 21st January.

UNKNOWN: And during - and did you join the security branch as well?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And from what date was that?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: When I left the college at Hammanskraal, I was sent to the security branch at Stellenbosch.  I came back from Stellenbosch, that was in 1982 when I went to Stellenbosch from the college.  Because of the weather that did not suit me in Stellenbosch I was transferred to Bloemfontein in 1983.  On the 15th September and I started working at the special branch in Bloemfontein on 1st October 1983.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Now what section did you work in the security branch Mr Miningwa?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: When I arrived in Bloemfontein, I worked with Mr Prinsloo, he is now  a Colonel but at the time he was Warrant Officer.  We were working with the trade unions and churches.

UNKNOWN: And who was in that section together with you and Mr Prinsloo in the section of trade unions and churches?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I worked all by myself as a black man, I'm not including the whites.  We were three when we started then at the end we were five.  If I remember very well we went to fetch ...[indistinct] from De Wets Dorp, then we were two people and five white people.

UNKNOWN: And who were the two black people, yourself and?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: It was myself, he's Sergeant Lesale.

UNKNOWN: What was your rank in 1986 or '85?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I was still a constable.

UNKNOWN: Coming then to the next paragraph, paragraph 14, that paragraph relates to a day when you went together with some other persons to go and assist to arrest Oupa Makubalo.  Can you remember that day?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Sir, I remember that day but I was personally not among that group.  I did not drive with them.  If I remember very well it was the time to knock off at work, it was at 4 o'clock I was using Mr Prinsloo's car when this group left to go and fetch Oupa Makubalo.
	I was supposed to drive with Mr Prinsloo to take him home to drop him off and come back with his car because we were supposed to work that night.

UNKNOWN: So what your saying is you weren't present at all during that incident?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Not at all, I was not there Sir.

UNKNOWN: Now Mr Ngo has also implicated you in regard to the group of people who were brought to Bloemfontein and in the bundle, Mr Chairman, page 30, bundle A of course page 30, third last name - it looks like number 11, it's a misspelt name but it can only refer to this witness, and Mr Ngo said that while these 19 people were detained and interrogated, members of the security branch who were organised - could you give me a moment, Mr Chairman, I'm not sure whether this is Bloemfontein or Botshabelo, ja it is Bloemfontein Mr Chairman, members of the security branch who were organised by Colonel Coetzee and Colonel Stevenson to beat up and torture these comrades were - and your name was then included, in other words it was suggested by Mr Ngo that you in fact beat up and tortured the comrades.  	Mr Chairman it corresponds with page 181 of the evidence of Mr Ngo where it is quite clear that this is the witness that is mentioned.
	Now, did you have anything to do with the comrades who were arrested by the South African Defence Force and transferred from Lady Brand to Bloemfontein?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Sir, I saw these children but I personally did not have anything to do with their interrogation.

UNKNOWN: Did you assault any of them or did you see anybody assault them in your presence?