Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: We drove towards Vaalbank, when we arrived in Vaalbank where she had fled to, we stopped.  Comrades and myself, we entered the house.  If I remember very well, I think it was a shack house.  They went at the back of this shack and the man, the owner of that house was told that we were there to fetch Emma.
	He could tell that the situation was tense.  I think he had a stick in his hand and the comrades went back a little bit.  I had stopped on the way of the gate, which goes to a neighbour.  Another lady came, a woman, came towards the gate and I could tell that this woman was in a hurry for something.
	I think we were two or three in that gate.  We disturbed her, because we didn't want her to go in there, because something might happen to her as well.  The comrades who were closer to that shack, kicked open the door, I think it was Victor if I remember well, and they took Emma, they put her into July's bakkie.  July reversed the car.  I didn't, I just drove straight and I turned on the next street.  The next street was closer to the Police station.  I turned towards the main road, we drove straight back.
	When we arrived in Pieterskraal, at the school, we were going to hold a meeting there.  People alighted from the bakkies, but it didn't take them five minutes to come back, because it was said that since we had realised that where we took this woman is closer to the Police station, it might happen that Police can follow us, and the suggestion was that we should proceed to the mountain.
	Indeed, we proceeded to the mountains.  We were using the two bakkies and some comrades were by foot.  When we arrived in the mountain, she was taken from the car and she was questioned.  It wasn't long before she uttered something, she said she wasn't the only one who was responsible for killing.  There was another man by the name of Nkabinde.  He was responsible for  the muti, because he is the one who gave her the muti to kill July's parents.
	We said "this is what we needed from her", we decided to take the bakkies back.  July and myself, we drove the two bakkies.  When we arrived at home, we found that Police vans were there.    The Police started questioning July, I was at a distance.  They said to July "where was the person who you had in this car", and July told them that he had left this person in the mountains.
	They didn't hit me, but they started assaulting July.  I was scared and I walked closer to the van because I wanted them to just put me behind the van, I didn't want them to assault me.  They put us in the van and they drove with us, because they wanted us to show them where we left the deceased.  They stopped on the road, they wanted July to come in front because they wanted him to be with them, so that he pointed exactly to the place where we had left the deceased.
	We proceeded.  As the Police van was approaching towards the mountain, we could see the flames, there was fire.  The Police stopped closer and they took July from the front and locked him together with us, at the back.  They got in the forest, in that mountain and they came back, they told us that the person we had, is the one who was on fire.  That is when they started assaulting us.
	That is how I participated in this whole thing.

MR RICHARD: Now before you left the mountain in your bakkie, did you see what became of the petrol in the container?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: No, I didn't see the petrol, but what I saw with my eyes, was a tie and that tie was put around her neck.  That is when I left.

MR RICHARD: Did you intend coming back to the mountain?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes.  I intended to go back to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: At the times that you were at the school, can you give us an estimate of how many people were at the school?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Even though I didn't count them, but I think there were between 300 to 400.

MR RICHARD: How many people were on the mountain?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: I will still say approximately between 300 and 400.

MR RICHARD: Forgive me for my mispronunciations, but you two ANC leaders Skosh and Scwadi, where were they when you were at the mountain?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I will say they were still present, but since there were too many people there and it was already dark, I cannot certainly say I did see them.

MR RICHARD: And were they at the school on both the occasions that you were there?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: As I have already mentioned that I only arrived at that school after the meeting, in fact just after the meeting had finished, and I will say yes, they were present.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, if you think back to that period at the end of 1990, the beginning of 1991,  what did the comrades think and believe about moloi's, impimpi's, ngaka's?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: There is a difference between an informer and a witch.  A witch is someone who is evil and an informer takes information to places where by so doing, he knows that there will be a conflict.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did the comrades believe about impimpi's, what was their attitude towards them?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: At the time, all comrades knew that an informer should be burnt.

MR RICHARD: And what did they believe should be done to moloi's, a moloi?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Also a witch was someone to be burnt by comrades.

MR RICHARD: But why?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Because a witch is full of evil and doesn't want any development in people and a witch is a disturbance in people's lives.

MR RICHARD: What do you think the attitude of a moloi was to the liberation struggle?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: A witch will make you sick, you lose your mind because that is what he would like to see so that you don't develop yourself or you don't progress, he makes sure that there is no progress in your life at all.

MR RICHARD: And this is what you say the moloi's were doing to people in the liberation struggle?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, they bewitched people who were involved in the liberation struggle, but not just that, they also bewitched people merely by jealousy, if someone was progressing or developing himself or herself, they will also be jealous of that.

MR RICHARD: Did you identify yourself with the belief that the comrades had concerning what should be done to witches, to moloi's?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I also believed in what the comrades believed, because I knew that witches didn't want development.

MR RICHARD: Who decided that Emma Mtsweni should be burnt?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: If I can put it this way, the people who were our leaders, they were the ones who decided because if you are a subordinate, you cannot take a decision, but your leaders always take decisions for you.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree or disagree with the decision?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: I did agree with the decision because I realised that this person was a disturbance in the community.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree with the comrades that she was an enemy of the liberation struggle?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I agreed with the comrades that she was a disturbance and a development.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Before I close my questioning-in-chief, why were there so many people both at the school and on the hillside?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: According to my knowledge, comrades when they do things, they call each other and each and every comrade wants to see what is going on.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.  Mr Mokoena, any questions?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Ms Mtanga?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?