Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I never said a person would not at all visit their respective places.  You would have your own ways and means to show at your house.  I did not completely disappear from home so that they did not even once see me subsequently, I used to show up at home.

MR RICHARD: Was your home ever raided?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: When?

MR RICHARD: After Sicelo's death.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: What did you do with the firearm?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know what you mean because that was my weapon and I kept it with me.

MR RICHARD: After the shooting, did you pick up the spent cartridge?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Where is the weapon today?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That was confiscated at a certain raid.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: During late 1988.

MR RICHARD: Where was this raid?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: In Emdeni.

MR RICHARD: After the deceased was shot, what ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Richard, just to get more detail on that.
	Whose house was raided at Emdeni?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know the address, but it was one place we used.

MR RICHARD: After the deceased was shot, what was the position of his body?  In what position did you leave him?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't understand what you mean, the position of his body after he was shot?

MR RICHARD: Was he lying on his face or on his back or on his side, still sitting?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I won't be able to remember such details, but after I shot him because he was sitting on the stone I shot him and he fell on the ground.

MR RICHARD: Did he fall on his face or his back?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: On his face.  Excuse me?  Yes, on his face, that's correct.

MR RICHARD: We have heard that you had no direct knowledge that the deceased was an informer, do you still think he was an informer?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't want to answer that question.

MR RICHARD: Because I put it to you that the story is in fact far simpler than anything that we've heard.  If you refer to page 63 of the bundle, there is a report which is substantially correct, that on the 20th of January, that's five days before the shooting, four days before the shooting, the deceased was detained at the offices of the Detainees Parents Support Committee, not assaulted, taken down to John Vorster Square and signed a statement.  In a sworn statement I'm reading he said that he had been invited - in that statement he declares that he implicated the makers of this television programme as forcing him to say what he did say.  And there's various version of this.  Isn't it that it was as a result of that arrest that you and your commander for whatever reason decided to label him as an informer, quite incorrectly?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: My reasons are not based on what you have said, I told you about things that happened before.

MR RICHARD: Isn't it significant to you that within a few weeks of that television programme, "Children of Apartheid" being broadcast the deceased died?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't understand when you say is it not significant to me.

MR RICHARD: Now tell me, there is evidence that shortly before his departure for Soweto that Saturday the deceased had over R1 000 in his pocket, do you know what happened to the money that was on the deceased's person?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone remove the money from him?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I have no idea.

MR RICHARD: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	When you made your application for amnesty I take it that you knew that you were to make full disclosure for you to get amnesty, am I correct?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I know is that I have to disclose everything with regards to the application that I've submitted.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  Now in your application why did you not disclose that you shot and killed Sicelo?  When I say "you" I refer to you as an individual.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: When you say myself I don't understand, please repeat.

MR MAPOMA: I'm saying when you made your application why did you not disclose that you shot and killed the deceased?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not sure if I never at all mentioned that because I only submitted an amnesty application.  As to whether I wrote that or not I don't remember.

MR MAPOMA: Let me remind you.  In your application you were asked at paragraph 9(a).4 to give the nature and particulars of the murder.  You say
"A person was shot with a Makarov pistol."

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Is that what I've written?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Didn't I say it's me?

MR MAPOMA: No, you did not,  you say he was shot.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: But I've already said anyway, I've mentioned it now in my evidence.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I understand that Sir, but my question is why did you not say at the time you were making the application, that you shot and killed Sicelo Dhlomo?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I have no answer to your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you see it's complicated further I think because you refer from time to time to Dube's statement which we have heard a lot of, and in Dube's statement he doesn't say who shot him either.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: As I said I don't have an answer to that question as I am also talking about my application.  I don't see any problem even though it does not appear on my application, but I have admitted now and I have said it in my evidence-in-chief.

MR MAPOMA: Do I understand your evidence to say that Sipho and Sibongiseni did nothing in the killing of Sicelo Dhlomo?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Briefly, they did not participate physically.

MR MAPOMA: And they did not participate even orally, is that so?  Because at the time they arrived you had already discussed the matter and made a decision that you are going to kill this gentleman and they only witnessed you killing him, is that a true reflection of what happened?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That's not necessarily a picture that I want you to have, but that's exactly how it happened.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV SANDI: Yes, but did Sipho and Sibongiseni do or say anything to associate themselves with the killing of Sicelo?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't understand.

ADV SANDI: Did any one of the two, that is the two Sipho and Sibongiseni, say they agreed that what you were doing was right, to kill Sicelo?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: When we explained to them afterwards they did not object.

ADV SANDI: Did they say you did a good thing to kill Sicelo?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: It's difficult for me to relay exactly what they said or the words they uttered, but what I know is they did not object to this.

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if it would be convenient to take the short adjournment a little early today rather than break into the next applicant's evidence.   What is your attitude?  Take the adjournment now, then he can continue uninterrupted?

MR KOOPEDI: It will be convenient to take the adjournment now.  I'm not sure what my learned friend's situation is like.

MR RICHARD: I agree with what the Chairperson suggested.

MR MAPOMA: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment and then recommence thereafter.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
SIPHO ALFRED TSHABALALA

MR KOOPEDI: May I be allowed to call the next applicant, Mr Tshabalala.  Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Can you please put your full names on record.

SIPHO ALFRED TSHABALALA: (sworn states)

ADV SANDI: What language are you going to testify in, Mr Tshabalala?

MR TSHABALALA: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: And is the question being interpreted to you in Zulu?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.