Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

MR BERGER: Please have a look at page 38, paragraph 7.   You say there
"We came from an easterly direction to Boipatong, and we started breaking windows and doors.   All property inside the homes had to be broken.   If we came across a human being, we had to kill him or her with pangas and spears.   We killed even young children, because these impis were now angry and this anger was caused by the intelezi(?) that was sprinkled on us.   We did not know how many people we killed or injured during that night of the attack."
Is that paragraph correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, it is correct.

MR BERGER: If you came from an easterly direction to Boipatong, it means you started your killing spree in Slovo Park, doesn't it?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I know, I was explaining the direction from which we came, an easterly direction.   Westerly direction, I don't know if you know where Slovo Park is?

MR BERGER: If one goes to Boipatong and one looks at Slovo Park and Boipatong, the distinction is very, is not very clear, there's one street on one side of the road is Boipatong, on the other side of the road is Slovo Park, and Slovo Park is a very small area.   So what I'm saying to you is that you were part of the attackers that started on the eastern side of the township and you made your way through the township, isn't that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I hear that from you, I don't know about it.

MR BERGER: You see, Mr Mthembu, the attackers attacked Boipatong from different angles, different sides, some came from the east or from the side of... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute, what do you say to that?   It's being put to you that the attackers attacked Boipatong from different sides, what do you say to that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I will not be able to say that they came from different directions, but from what you have explained, this is the route taken by the attackers, but I cannot comment where they came from, or the route that they used.

MR BERGER: How did you get out of the hostel, what route did you take?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We took the route that went along the main gate at Kwamadala.

MR BERGER: You went out of the main gate?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you then came along Noble Boulevard, you went under the bridge towards Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And when you got to the corner of Noble Boulevard and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, you then split into various groups, is that what happened?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not see when we separated, but I just realised when we entered the township that we were now entering the township.

MR BERGER: You see because if you look at the map in front of you, some of the attackers started or came from the east, that is in the area around Slovo Park, and those attackers, after they had finished with Slovo Park... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, where is that indicated on the map?

MR BERGER: It's not indicated on the map, Chairperson.   I'm putting to the witness the areas from which the attackers came and I'm asking him to look at the map so that he can orientate himself.   If it will assist the Committee, we can put arrows onto the map, just to indicate the directions in which we say the attackers came.   Some of the attackers moved down into Slovo Park, others moved across the northern side of Boipatong, and eventually exited out Bafokeng Street, do you see there at the top there, the second street is Bafokeng?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR BERGER: And then a third group of attackers came from the southern side of the township, entering the township via Lekwa Street, it's at the bottom in the middle there, and moving along different streets towards the east and towards the north, and then also making their way out along Bafokeng Street?

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, I don't think there has been any evidence before this Committee that there were three groups in the township that night.   If my learned friend put it to him and asked him whether there were three groups, then I agree, but you put it to him as a fact.   I don't think that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm assuming that there would be evidence, you know, coming from Mr Berger indicating that, you know, there were three groups.

MS PRETORIUS: Then I'll leave it at that.

MR BERGER: What I can say, Chairperson, is that if one analyses the houses which were attacked that night, and that analysis has been done, certain routes, also on the basis of eye witness accounts of people, certain routes were plotted, and there... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Look, you can get on to the point.   Continue with your questions.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, it appears that the attackers struck, I'll put it this way, the attackers struck from three main areas, three different main areas, one being in Slovo Park, one being along the northern side of Boipatong and the other being from the southern side, moving east and north.   Can you help the Committee as to whether or not there were in fact three groups of attackers?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, you are telling me that there were indeed three groups.   What I can say is, according to your map, or rather as reflected in your map, I think people have told you how the attackers conducted the attack, you were not there.   Hearsay and what you see for yourself are two different things.

CHAIRPERSON: It's being put to you, either as a fact or as a suggestion, is that there appears to have been three groups or attacks from three directions.   What do you say to that, do you have any personal knowledge of that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not have any knowledge about that, sir.

MR BERGER: Also, there is evidence that the attackers who started attacking from Slovo Park were in fact transported to Slovo Park in police vehicles?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge of that, sir.

MR BERGER: What I want to put to you, Mr Mthembu, is that this attack on Boipatong and Slovo Park must have been very well planned.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge of that, sir.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what your lawyers said on your behalf at the criminal trial.   Chairperson, I'm reading from page 78 of a document, the heads of argument which were submitted on behalf of the accused at the trial.   It is said there on your behalf
"Ten eerste is dit duidelik op die totaliteit van die getuienis dat die aanval gepaard moes gegaan het met uiterste fyn beplanning en met militere presisie uitgevoer is."
In other words, the evidence which was led at the criminal trial made it clear that the attack... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: That's a submission by the lawyers who were acting on his behalf at the trial?

MR BERGER: Indeed, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you follow what's being put to you?

MR BERGER: There was evidence led, and I'm sure that that evidence about who was killed and where they were killed and so on is not disputed, and your lawyers said on your behalf that it was clear from that evidence that the attack must have been preceded by very careful planning, if my translation is accurate, and that it was carried out with military precision.   Now, I want to ask you, or I want to put it to you that your evidence cannot be true that you were simply called to the stadium and told, "We're now going to attack Boipatong" and there was no planning, all that happened was, you all got your weapons and off you went to kill as many people as possible, that is not the way it happened?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was responding to your questions and I was telling you what I knew and what happened.