Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

MR RAMASITSI: Well I wasn't actually really working there, I was actually helping him.  I was a school student, I used to befriend myself with the young kids of the deceased and I would go to the field with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you leave helping, or why did you leave, whatever?

MR RAMASITSI: Well I could realise that there were some threatening things, that is why I could no longer be staying myself with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Like what?

MR RAMASITSI: When we used to carry the mealie sacks to the field, there were sort of like some zombies.  Secondly on a certain day when I was with the sons of the deceased, the deceased came in a private car in the late evening, he had his friend, they started off-loading meat which all us wondered what kind of meat it was because it was off-loaded in a different manner and we suspected that it could have been meat from a human body because ritual murders and witchcraft was really combined.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been asked why you called this man a witch and why you thought he was a witch on many occasions during your testimony, do you recall that, more than one occasion you were asked why was this man thought of or regarded to be involved or connected to witchcraft? Isn't that so, you were asked that, correct?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR RAMASITSI: Why did you never mention this off-loading of strange carcasses or carcasses in a strange way?

MR RAMASITSI: Well it was because, well I said yesterday I was referring to the way we were fighting against the deceased, I could not get into witchcraft because it was not risen.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, I don't know if you understand or misunderstand the question.  I hope you are being questioned in the language of your choice.  All I'm asking is that when you were asked about why the deceased was thought to be connected with witchcraft, why did you not tell us that one of the incidents was when you saw that meat or carcasses were being off-loaded in a manner that led you people to believe that the meat was that of a human kind, that strengthened your belief that he was involved in witchcraft?  Why didn't you say so?

MR RAMASITSI: Well it was because, well I didn't have as much time as I'm getting now, because the questions are coming directly to me, which was not the case yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: No there was a direct question to you this morning and yesterday, why did you think this man was connected to witchcraft, that was a simple, straightforward question.  Now you were under no pressure, time pressure or other kind, all I'm asking is why didn't you mention it at that time?  You had an opportunity and more than one opportunity.

MR RAMASITSI: Well beg your pardon for what I said, I thought I'll say that...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No don't beg my pardon, my pardon's got nothing to do with the matter, I'm asking for an explanation.  Why didn't you raise it before?

MR RAMASITSI: It was because I was referring to the fight barring people from the political activities regarding the deceased, that's what he was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you understand the question?

MR RAMASITSI: Well I didn't have anything which had a witchcraft related matter as it was being asked yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked this morning, never mind yesterday.

MR RAMASITSI: Well yes today I was asked and I already answered that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja but that's not now, I'm talking about earlier today, you were asked a direct question.

MR RAMASITSI: Well the question wanted me to know why we were fighting against the deceased and I said it was witchcraft related, but I didn't give a full explanation on that.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask you once more, when you were asked this man was regarded as being involved in witchcraft, you had an opportunity to give this example that you just gave.  Why didn't you do that earlier when you were asked what made you think this man was involved in witchcraft?

MR RAMASITSI: Well I gave an example of the mealie sacks which made people believe that he had zombies... ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When you talked about these carcasses that strengthened your belief on earlier the occasions, why didn't you?

MR RAMASITSI: Well I didn't realise that will be this vital or important.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ramasitsi, surely the dealing in human flesh must be as important as any, if not more important as any other indicator of witchcraft? Surely, we heard expert evidence on the use or the belief that human flesh played a major role in witchcraft or traditional medicines, ritual murders, you were here when that evidence was being given.

MR RAMASITSI: Yes I was.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't come and tell us that you think it was so important.  You were asked a direct question as to why you thought the man was involved in witchcraft or ritual murders or whatever and you never told us that you had witnessed or observed the removal of flesh which led you to believe that they were dealing in human flesh?  Now we spent ten minutes on asking you, or me asking you why you never mentioned it before.  Why are struggling with an explanation or have you got no explanation?

MR RAMASITSI: Well there is something I can say.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's hear it then.

MR RAMASITSI: The truth is since we realised the human flesh or the flesh, it was a time when many people were busy talking about when formally they were associating with the deceased, they were threatened, they felt that he was busy with witchcraft and ritual killing, that is what led to the people feeling very uneasy.  When he was claiming to be the chief and people were surprised as to why he wanted to be the chief when he was the one who was really indicating that he had these terrible things.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope that nobody else is going to make a similar attempt that I made.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I'm not going to try Mr Chairman, I'll rather proceed, thank you.  These facts that you had in your own mind that perhaps the deceased was involved in witchcraft, these facts that we were talking about now, is it not so that at the meetings and also at other occasions you and the other applicants and all the people, they would discuss those allegations and facts so that it came to all of their knowledge?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: During your testimony you stressed the fact several times that your intention was for the deceased to leave the area and also on the 6th of April, after the meeting that was held at school, I think you said there was something like five hours spent in negotiations and I take it that those negotiations aimed at persuading the deceased to leave the area, is that correct?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So if he would have left, he would not have been killed and his place would not have been arsoned?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now I put it to you that that specific fact was contradicted by the judge in his judgement and he came to the conclusion, and he listed something like, just pardon me for one second...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I may just indicate that we're not bound by those conclusions, hey.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I understand that very well, I just want his opinion on that.  The learned judge listed ten reasons why he came to the conclusion that you only went to that house of the deceased on the 6th of April to kill him and nothing else.  What do you say about that?

MR RAMASITSI: Well we were not going there to kill.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why did you take petrol with?

MR RAMASITSI: Well we thought we were going to put the house on fire.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see, so you planned to burn the place but not to kill him?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes.