Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-07

MR ZILWA: Now given the prevailing circumstances of the day that the whole country was reeling about the event, in fact it was almost the event of the century that robbed the country 	more than any other event.  Now did you believe that, let's put it this way, now given those circumstances
that the shock waves were going on around about the death of Chris Hani, now regarding your action of killing these whites immediately after the event ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Three days later, Mr Zilwa

MR ZILWA: Yes, three days later.  In fact as I recall, even a week thereafter, even at the time of the funeral, the anger was still boiling over.  Now given those events, what did you think the effect of your action would have been with regard to the message you wanted to send?

FUNDISILE GULENI: As I have indicated earlier on that it would send a message to the public that we are prepared if these anti-revolutionary forces are in arms to also take our arms against them and it will also not be easy for them to just carry on with the killings of the black people or the ANC leadership without having met the opposition from the other side.

MR ZILWA: To be more exact, did you think your action could be mistaken for anything else other than to be connected with the death of Chris Hani?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Can you come again?

MR ZILWA: Did you think your action of killing the whites could be mistaken for anything else other than as a retaliation or as something connected with the death of Chris Hani?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No, we didn't think that way.

ADV DE JAGER: It it's become the next day that you've killed a person who was an opponent of the Government, a man fighting for peace, didn't you think the whole world will say "but how could this be connected to killing of Chris Hani?  Is that really your answer?

FUNDISILE GULENI: According to our belief, we didn't anticipate a situation where we will be killing a person who is not associated with the group we though we will find there.

MR ZILWA: Let me see if I understand you correctly.  You are saying in your mind, rightly or wrongly, you believed that the people you had targeted, the people you killed, were people with right-wing affiliations, rightly or wrongly, is that your evidence?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I don't get you clear, sir.

MR ZILWA: Did I understand you correctly in saying that by choosing the spot which you chose to kill these people you were persuaded that the people who would be there would be connected with the destabilising right-wing elements?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Now did you then believe that the killing of such a calibre of people would be connected with Chris Hani's incident?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes we believed.

MR ZILWA: Mr Guleni, you mean that even the next day when it was reported in the media that kind of people you had attacked, did you, do you think that people would instead have thought that this had something to do with the assassination of Mr Hani?

CHAIRPERSON: No, they couldn't have if it was reported that they were not, but the fact of the matter is that when he committed the act, that was what you thought was going to - that was the message you wanted to give to the Government, is it not so?  The damage had been done by the time all of us found, or you found out that it was the wrong person, isn't it?  And so that message wouldn't have in effect go to the Government and it wouldn't have the desired effect, but when you committed the killing, that's what you wanted to get to
the Government, isn't it?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes before we know that.

MR ZILWA: During cross-examination you were also questioned at length about why when you meant the child at the resort, the child which you say was about nine, why you never asked him or her about the political affiliations of his or her parents.  Do you remember that question?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I do.

MR ZILWA: Now would you have regarded it as something sensible to enquire from a child about nine about the political affiliations or persuasions of her parent?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No I didn't regard it as sensible.

MR ZILWA: Now you were asked about the time you committed the killing as to whether you were acting under the control or under the orders of anybody such as a leader of the SDU.  Do you remember that question?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes I do.

MR ZILWA: Now could you explain this a little closer.  Did I understand you correctly in saying when you performed your operation, you were just taking decisions collectively without really being directed by any particular person who could be regarded as a leader, it was a collective decision and you were agreeing on things and doing things as you had decided, not necessarily by way of a direction by any particular person.  Did I understand you correctly?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes, what happened, the comrade from Flagstaff arrived and we met and shared the same pain.  After that, in a form of caucus we resolved to take the road to the area of fire, the areas we've mentioned here.  We didn't have a situation where we would have a commander of the operation, we just based everything on a meeting situation or caucus situation.  Everyone could come up with an opinion and the opinion developed whether would it lead us anywhere then we would sort of plan everything in a form of sharing the views other than to have a commander.

MR ZILWA: Right, now this incident of the killing of Hani, it's like no incident that ever occurred in South Africa, in fact one would say it was about the most momentous or tragic, the most tragic event that ever occurred in our country, isn't that so?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes it is.

MR ZILWA: Now you were asked about the position of the ANC that hither to, up to that time, the position of the ANC was that it was against violence.  Now would you say when that incident of the killing of Hani occurred, would you say it was just - the situation was normal and as such the - everything that was happening hither to, you expected no need to do anything that would be ...[indistinct] in order to fit the event?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Anyway at that time, save the effect that the policy of the ANC to that stage has not been amended, I mean we felt it is within the scope of furthering the interests of the ANC what we did and we believed it's furthering the interests of the ANC in the sense that we were advancing the defence of our leaders whom we alleged to be in hit list and also we would remember that before assassination of Comrade Chris there were a number of incidents that happened as a result of the direction as it was alleged.  So we believed that was, the time was ...[indistinct] enough for us to stand and defend the ANC together with it's leaders.  On our belief then, we thought we are not deviating from the interests of the organisation.

MR ZILWA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ZILWA

ADV SANDI: Mr Guleni, just one or two last questions from me.  Those who were in charge of the Transkei territory, people like Major General Holomisa, do you think they would have been happy with the presence of AWB in the Transkei?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No I don't think so.

ADV SANDI: Was any thought given to informing them about the presence of such dangerous elements in the Transkei territory?

FUNDISILE GULENI: To our thinking then, we thought it would be hard for us to link with the government even if it would be against the AWB.  It would not be easy because we thought on our capacity as SDU members that any submission of that kind of information to the government would end up hampering all of our plans.

ADV SANDI: How?  Because that government was not the same as the government that you had in South Africa?