Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: You were facing charges, very serious charges. This matter was in all the newspapers, this matter received a lot of publicity, you say you know nothing about the matter at all, yet you choose to flee the country at this time. Can you explain to me why?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Because to me those charges meant nothing, because as far as I know there are many people who left the country having charges on their heads, or on them, as far back as 1976.

MR VALLY: Were you ever a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I was not.

MR VALLY: Did you ever play soccer with them?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, that's negative.

MR VALLY: Have you ever seen them playing soccer?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, that's positive.

MR VALLY: How many times?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I recall twice.

MR VALLY: You were on the premises on the 19th of February 1989 when you were arrested, is that correct?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Were you at school at this time?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: When did your school term finish?  Was it the new school term, had it begun?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: What do you mean about that, can you tell me?

MR VALLY: Well, had your new school term begun on the 19th of February 1989 already?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: By that time?

MR VALLY: That's correct.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, it was our - if I'm sure about it, it was our first term of the beginning of the school by then.

MR VALLY: Did you stay in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house in January 1989?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: In January 1989 as I was just - as I've just made mention of it that I used to pay a visit ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Did you visit her in January 1989?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Hello?

MR VALLY: Did you visit Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house in January 1989?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't remember, I can't remember really whether a month before I was arrested I was there or what, I can't remember.

MR VALLY: Is it possible that you were there?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Possibly, and possibly no, possibly yes and ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Is it possible that you were there in December 1988?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: There is that possibility and there is no possibility.

MR VALLY: Do you know Pelo Mekgwe?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Pelo Mekgwe, yes, I know him.

MR VALLY: Did you meet him at Mrs Mandela's house?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes I once met with the guy, I don't remember, but I ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Do you know Mr Kenny Gase?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Kenny Gase, who's that?

MR VALLY: Do you know him?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: Have you ever met Mr Stompie Seipei?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: So you met Mr Pelo Mekgwe at Mrs Mandela's house, you haven't met Mr Kenny Gase, you say, you haven't met Mr Stompie Seipei, you say. Have you ever heard of Mr Stompie Seipei?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I've heard about Stompie Seipei. ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: What have you heard about him?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That he was an active teenager, and he died.

MR VALLY: How did he die?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I'm not sure.

MR VALLY: Do you know where he was last seen?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I'm not sure.

MR VALLY: You've never met him at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: Do you know Mr Thabiso Mono?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Thabiso, yes, I know Thabiso.

MR VALLY: Did you meet him at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I'm not sure, but I think himself and Pelo, himself and Pelo, yes, I think I did meet them at Mrs Mandela's house.

MR VALLY: You regularly visited Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, both in Orlando West and Diepkloof Extension, was your cousin, Mr Sizwe Sithole - first of all, I want you to explain your relationship with Sizwe Sithole.  You say he's your cousin?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, he's my cousin.

MR VALLY: Are your fathers brothers or are your mothers sisters, in which way, is he your first cousin?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: My mother and the late Sizwe's mother were sisters.

MR VALLY: Are you aware if Sizwe Sithole was a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: To my understanding I understand Sizwe as a comrade who was staying at Winnie Mandela's place.

MR VALLY: Was Sizwe Sithole ever a member of Mandela United Football Club?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I'm not sure of that.

MR VALLY: Yet you went to visit him regularly there.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't say whether the people whom I visited at Mandela's place were members of the Mandela United Football Club.

MR VALLY: Yet you went to watch the soccer club play football.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, but I didn't see him play.

MR VALLY: So you don't know?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes.

MR VALLY: Was Pelo Mekgwe a member of the Football Club?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I don't think so.

MR VALLY: Was Thabiso Mono a member of the Football Club?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I don't think so, in fact let me say I don't know.

MR VALLY: When you saw Pelo Mekgwe and Thabiso Mono at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house did you notice any injuries on them?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I think it's long time and then taking into consideration my age by that time ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: You were 17.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, and I'm definitely that ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Is there anything wrong with your eyesight?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, there is no problem, but what I would like to tell you is that when I went to Mrs Mandela's place I was not there to check on people but I was there to check on my requirements.

MR VALLY: Well, you regularly went there weekends and other days to check on your requirements, were you ever aware of a disciplinary committee at Mrs Mandela's house?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: You lived in an area in Orlando West, are you aware of tension between Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's Football Club and any youths in the areas where she lived?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I didn't witness anything.

MR VALLY: You witnessed nothing?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I didn't witness anything pertaining ...[indistinct]

MR VALLY: You are not aware of her house being burnt down?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I was aware that the house was burnt down.

MR VALLY: Do you know why this happened?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I'm not sure.

MR VALLY: You lived in the same area, didn't you ask anyone?

MR MILLER: Sorry, Chairperson, Mr Sithole started off saying a few minutes ago saying that he doesn't know why he has been subpoenaed here today and, Chairperson, you indicated to him that his questioning by Mr Vally would give him an indication of why he is here.  So far, Chairperson, all we have heard is a series of questions with a series of denials, which has taken the Commission, with respect, absolutely nowhere.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to tell him, because I thought, I mean, that the questions were actually questions that might assist, but are you able to say why you wanted him here?

MR VALLY: Did you receive our subpoena in this matter?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I did.

MR VALLY: What did the subpoena tell you about?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: The subpoena tells me that I had to appear before the TRC concerning Winnie Mandela's hearing, public hearing.

MR VALLY: Did it specifically tell you about the abduction of Pelo Mekgwe, Kenny Gase, Thabiso Mono, and the death of Stompie Seipei?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Ja, I think I still remember that page which state many of the names which I'm not

MR VALLY: Does Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know you?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, definitely.