Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

MR LEWIN: I was just wondering where these stories emanate from?

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson, they are possibly stories but you know, what I personally know about it, I do not know about any such things as I was never involved in any such assaults. It is possible but I cannot say.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much.

DR RANDERA: Can I ask one specific question, a general question and then make a comment if I may?  My specific
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question is related to the story that we heard this morning about the two Fouries. You were present, you were within the police force at that time, perhaps also involved in the investigation, perhaps you'd like to tell us whether you were.  But can you give us any information on that?

COL DE JAGER: Chairperson, I can also say very honestly that I was not involved in this investigation, I do not know about any person that was possibly responsible for it, I do not have any information about that, I know that it was said that it could possibly be Kendal, I do not know much more than that.  I was at the scene shortly thereafter and it was a gruesome thing to see.

DR RANDERA: Earlier about the Mbokoto you mentioned that grouping, but we also know that there were kitskonstabels in this area, who were trained in this area and some of the research work seems to imply that many of the Mbokoto actually went into the kitskonstabels.  My question therefore is, were you involved in the training of these people, did you think they were a disciplined police
force, given what you've just said about what the Emzodo were involved in?

COL DE JAGER: Firstly I would just like to say that I was not aware that any of these vigilante groups or Mbokotos were recruited into the police force, I was never involved in their training, what I do know is that in my view, the people did good work and that they supplemented the numbers which we did not have and they were requested to do work as such and it largely contributed to the order which was maintained and the stability which was obtained.

DR RANDERA: I'll come to my comment now. You know we have countless statements, and I say countless statements,
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where people have come forward and said that they've been tortured by the police officials of the time, and we've heard this throughout the country as we've gone along.  I actually find it incredulous that where we have the opportunity, and I'm making this as a general statement, to acknowledge, I'm not saying, take responsibility but to acknowledge what happened in the 33 year period, that nobody wants to take this sort of responsibility of acknowledgement.
 Now something must be wrong in this equation. Either on the one side we are dealing with groups of individuals who are coming forward and making up stories or on the other side, there's absolute denial of what happened. In this particular area, hundreds of people were arrested, I don't know how many people died, and yet nobody wants to acknowledge that this happened, and I'd like us to just think about that as we finish today.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Captain de Jager, thank you very much for coming forward. I think that comments made by the Commissioner are extremely important because people are constantly being asked to come to terms with the past, and that there should be reconciliation.  Yet the people who were the victims, that their victim status is constantly being denied and when they ask for answers to some of the questions, they're not asking for punishment or retribution, they want answers and they want to know why is it that certain things were done? Why is that people who were deadened were beaten up.  They don't seem to get any answers, now do you believe that there can be a basis for reconciliation, if only one side of that conflict, the victims are coming forward to tell their story, but the
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other side, the people who had authority, who were in the 
police stations, in the security police, had the powers, had the decision-making powers, their comments all the time is, "I don't know, I was never there".  Can there be a basis for reconciliation if the relationship is so unequal?

COL DE JAGER: If I can just comment, Chairperson, you now, as the General said earlier, the police were easily used in situations such as this one to enforce order and stability.  Whereas there were various agendas as far as political motives.  I do not know how reconciliation can be activated in the future in doing it in such a way that police are not involved in the enforcement of any such act, because in cases of periods where these things took place, we did enforce the law and that possibly there was no reconciliation, but we made it possible for people to live safely in areas where they weren't safe before.  But today we live in a new era and I hope and trust that in this era we will be able to enable reconciliation through negotiation. Because through negotiation we will realise what the needs are of a certain group and solve that before the government forces it down upon people before getting the general perception of the people.
 I think that is what could happen and I foresee that it is possible in the future.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you expect people to reconcile, to come to terms with what happened, if all the time they meet denials, there was no torture, there was no electric shock, there was no physical beating, there was no maltreatment, there was no unlawful and illegal detention?  How do you expect people to reconcile if that is the response that they get? People are asking for an acknowledgement.  We accept
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that at the end of the day the context was political and the political people have to take overall responsibility.  We accept that.  But there were also operatives, there were people on the ground, as you say who were implemented, who carried out, and if those people constantly come forward and say, "I don't know anything, we don't know anything, how then are you going to expect people to want to reconcile?

COL DE JAGER: Well I would also like to answer what the Commissioner has just said. The allegations that such things happened, I will not deny, but if I were to say to the Commission today that I was involved in such activities, I would be lying, even to myself. If I knew anything about it, it was hearsay, but people at grassroots level are possibly responsible for it.  I was not present there, the people in charge of them should be the people to acknowledge it, but it is certainly not me, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Many thanks again for coming, for accepting the invitation and for giving an account of your experiences. There was conflict, unrest, a lot of human rights violations on all sides of the conflict.