Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR JORDI: Okay.
 Regarding the decision that was made to kill Lolo and Sibuniso - you said that that was made by Sonwabo, I just wanted to investigate the question of whether Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was aware of that decision, do you know whether she was?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember.

MR JORDI: One final question, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has said that Mr Sono only visited her house on one occasion when he brought arms back to her house for storage after Chepo - I think it was, was arrested by the security police following on the accident he had into the fence of the neighbour nearby  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, did Mr Sono regularly visit Mrs Madikizela-Mandela or did he visit only on that one occasion?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I thought Mr Sono was Mrs Mandela's friend because he frequented the place and he used to come and we would greet each other and then he would proceed into Mrs Mandela's house.

MR JORDI: Thank you Mr Richardson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JORDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  One!

KHOZA MGOJO: I'll speak very bad that I have to ask only one question because I had seven questions lined up for you but because of the situation with time, I'll ask only one question.
 From what you've already told us - what happened with regard to the football club, all the people who were killed were suspected of being informers, do you know what an informer is, he's what you call an impimpie.  From this I claim that you were once labelled an informer up to an extent that they said they had some information that you were giving to Pretorius - you were even promised a sum of R10.000-00 in return for information that you would give to him.  
 Now, what I want to know - there's a very big question mark, were you an expert in this field or amongst the people, that you were able to evade the punishment that was meted out to other people who were branded informers and you even went to the extent of killing some people who were called informers.  How did you escape?  Were people scared of you? - that's an easy question.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, they were pretty scared of me, they were very scared of me.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGOJO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Yes, Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Richardson, I would like to know - after the incident in which these two MK people as well as Sergeant Pretorius were killed in your home, were you arrested and charged for harbouring terrorists in your home and could you tell me how long you spent in detention or in jail please?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I was arrested on the very same day, that was the 9th and I was released on the 25th.  I was given a task that they would come and see me so that I would work with them and co-operate with them and they said I mustn't disclose this information to anyone.  H Moodley was the one who was addressing me, he's the one who followed me.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  I have a diary here from the police where there's an entry on the 12th of May 1995, in which - I think it's Colonel Hesslinga, where it says that you received R10.000-00 from them and that they received a receipt, now did you or did you not receive this sum of R10.000-00?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Now they're talking about a receipt - if I had this receipt I would give it to you now but now that I don't have the receipt I would request them to give me my R10.000-00 and then I will give them a receipt.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS SOOKA

DR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson.
 Mr Richardson, when you came back in the Kombi from the Methodist Manse and you had Stompie and the other three young people and you took them to the home of Mrs Mandela and you told us that you and others assaulted them, now when you assaulted them, did they cry out at all?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, they did cry out and as they were screaming we sang the slogan and freedom songs to drown their voices.

DR BORAINE: How far is the room or the garage or the back of the house, from the main house where they were being assaulted and crying out?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, it's quite close, it's close to the main house.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  ...[indistinct] this is the last part of the one question that I'm allowed, you said - when you were describing the assault, you said: "We dealt with them or with him, Stompie, in the same way as the security police treated the freedom fighters", is that right, is that what you said?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is correct, that's what I said.

DR BORAINE: So, in a fact - no there's a conclusion - so in fact, you became like the security police?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I would agree with you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY DR BORAINE

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa?

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Richardson, after I'd seen you on Sunday in the prison where you are kept - in the presence of your lawyer and one of the investigators and after I had spoken to the head of the prison there Mr Maseko, I gained an impression and you will correct me if I'm wrong, I gained an impression that you are not feeling safe in that prison and that as a consequence you might not be keen to publicly admit that you acted as an informer for Pretorius unless your safety can be guaranteed.
 The question I then ask is, did I get a correct impression that you do not feel safe in that prison because you might be got at by those who might not like you testifying here?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would you rather be moved to a much more secure prison, if there is something like that in this country?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, I want to remain there and I will die there and I will only go out of there as a corpse.

MR NTSEBEZA: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTSEBEZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Hlengiwe?

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson, I have three quick questions.
 The first one,  I really want your confirmation Mr Richardson.  If I heard you well you seem to be the only one within the Mandela Football Club, who had the expertise of using the weapon which you used in the killings and how to use it?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, that is true.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.  You mentioned the disciplinary committee which used to make decisions about the abductions, the killings and so on, what I want to know is, how much weight did your views carry within that disciplinary committee?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, I took those decisions very seriously, to such an extent that I had to eliminate those people.

MS MKHIZE: In other words what you are saying is, your thoughts or your opinions carried a lot of weight, is that what you are saying?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That's not how I put it but if I was told about a certain person who had committed a crime, I would do my best that something is done to that person.

MS MKHIZE: ...[inaudible] you have made major allegations in a jocular manner without making an effort to assist us as a Commission by providing supportive evidence, why is that Mr Richardson?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I'm sorry if I didn't give you any evidence or proof because there is some proof stashed away -  H T Moodley's evidence or evidence with regard to H T Moodley and I don't know what sort of evidence you need.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MKHIZE