Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-06

MR VISSER: Yes.  So what you are really saying is what the author is saying at the top of page 15, it's all a question of proportionality isn't it?  You used the word "some civilians".
	In other words what I understand you to say Mr Ismail, please stop me if I am wrong, is that if the "overwhelming" target is military then the loss of, or the casualties of some innocent bystanders is acceptable in normal war situations.  Now I don't disagree with you about that let me make it quite plain. 
	The question here as to proportionality, and incidentally the Act in section 23 specifies proportionality as one of the elements which the Committee will have to consider in determining whether the act or omission or offence was one which was committed with a political objective, but that bye-the-bye, it's a question of proportionality.  And let's get to that, let's get to that.
	You stated in Exhibit A1 at page 58, perhaps it's not you, A1, perhaps it's the ANC, I think - ja, it's the ANC submission, page 58 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry just before you proceed Mr Visser, Mr Trengove you mentioned that you have been trying to get extra copies of these.  I've still got a couple of the panel members who don't have ...(intervention)

MR TRENGOVE: We have extra copies of Exhibit A 2.1 and 2.2 but not of Exhibit A1.  We are in the process of having more made and we'll give them to you as soon as ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Sorry Mr Visser we can ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I would just read to you at page 85 in the right-hand column, 58 sorry, in the right-hand column the last paragraph.  Here the ANC in its submission said this.
"In the attack on SAAF Headquarters just after 16H30 19 people were killed of which at least 11 were SAAF officers".
Do you agree with that statement?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: It goes on to say, and I quote
"Over 200 people were injured of which over 70 were members or employees of the armed forces".
I think that statement is incidentally correct.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: But there may be more.

MR VISSER: Well we will have a look at that in a moment.  And then it goes on to say where the car bomb was positioned precisely in front of the entrance to the Air Force Headquarters which took the direct impact of the explosion.  "Many military personnel were killed", it says again.
	Now you in your evidence in Exhibit A paragraph 1 also gave statistics.  Please forgive me Mr Chairman this is clearly a wrong reference.  I am sorry what I should be referring to is Annexure C to Exhibit A paragraph 1.  You said this:
"On May 20 1983 a car bomb exploded outside the South African Air Force Headquarters in Church Street Pretoria.  As a result 19 people were killed including 11 Air Force officers.  According to initial media reports more than 200 military personnel and a few civilians were injured".
Now that's slightly different from what we read the ANC submission said, but that's bye-the-bye.  These initial media reports which you referred to here, which were they?  Can you remember?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.  Mr Chairperson on the day after the attack on the Saturday, the Rand Daily Mail read something to the extent that there was a wall of blue had come down, of soldiers that were there. ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Yes that's paragraph ...(intervention)

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well my impression ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Sorry.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: No I was just going to say you said that in paragraph 10 at the same page, yes.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: That in my mind overwhelmingly it was military personnel that were killed or injured as a result of it.

MR VISSER: Yes.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: All the reconnaissance indicated that overwhelmingly military personnel would be in that area at the time, and that is what we were aiming at.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Mr Ismail now when you drew up Annexure C was that also on the 10th of May when you signed your application form or was it subsequent to that, the 10th of May of last year?  When was Annexure C drafted?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Subsequently.

MR VISSER: Subsequently.  How long ago?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: A few days before this hearing.

MR VISSER: Yes.  At which time you had in your possession, did you not, bundles 2 and 3, made up by the personnel of this Committee?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you take the trouble of looking at page 131 of volume 3?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: And following.  Did you also take the trouble of trying to identify of that list how many were apparently civilians and how many were apparently Defence Force personnel to refer to all of them by that collective name, have you taken that trouble?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I have looked at this in fact only in the last day or two and that was subsequent to having drawn up this statement.

MR VISSER: I understand that.  Now my question is did you count, did you make a head count for yourself, after all you are the one that caused all of this, you are the one that decided on this target, so were you interested in taking a head count of how successful you were?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I have.

MR VISSER: What figures did you come up with?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well according to these records it shows that over 88 or so were military people.

MR VISSER: And how many civilians?  You are talking about people injured?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Alright.  And how many civilians were injured?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well if one were to subtract that from the over 200, I haven't counted all these names.

MR VISSER: Can I give you the correct figures?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes please.

MR VISSER: As I count them, from what we all got from the TRC, civilians injured 114; defence or Air Force personnel injured 86.  Do you want to make a note of that?  114 as opposed to 86.
	Now what you wouldn't have had Mr Ismail in fairness to you is an extract, I believe it's from the case docket of specifying the people who died.  Now you mentioned that 19 people had died and you are quite correct.  The figure is 19, as a result of the blast ...(intervention)

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Which is based on newspaper records, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes right, but that is correct.  But what I want to put to you is that far from the figures which you mentioned the correct figures are that 7 defence force personnel died, 10 civilians, more than 50% and your two people, the two people who planted the bomb.  Were you aware of those figures before today?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No.

MR VISSER: Did you make any effort to ascertain exactly what the figures were and how many civilians and how many defence force personnel had been killed?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes we had tried to look at newspaper records as far as we could obtain them.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You see, and I say this to you so that you know why I am asking these questions, we are used to normally when an application for amnesty is brought the applicant appears before the Amnesty Committee with all the facts at his disposal in order to make a full disclosure.  I am just surprised, I am just surprised to see these kind of statements that you make where in fact you had documentation in regard to the injuries in front of you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Visser wouldn't we say the determination of the injured people would be gleaned from newspapers and from what the witness has said, and if you look at specifically at the Rand Daily Mail which comes and says "a sea of blue was lying there", can a person outside the country come with precise figures in that regard?  I think in fairness to the witness we should bear that in mind.