Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-23

MR MALAN: You had no other knowledge of this ear, nothing else concerning this ear?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Chairperson I was not present when anything else was mentioned about this ear. I was there for a short while with this movement and I was not socially with them for much time.

MR MALAN: At any time did you doubt your membership to the AWB?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: From my statement it seems so but last year only, 1997 I resigned from the movement.

MR MALAN: Why did you resign?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I saw that Mr Terreblanche was not with the people and he did not believe in the ideology. He did not support his persons. He stands on the stage and he just sweeps all the people up but he does not really support them. I could not belong to such a party.

MR MALAN: You did not want to belong to this party because it did not carry out its threats?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I do not think I can answer that question. But regarding the party's threats, what threats are you talking about?

MR MALAN: Let me ask this question to you in two parts. In your statement you say that your doubts about the party was because of the act that was perpetrated.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes as I said yesterday I made this statement. I saw the two commanders after they were tortured. I wanted to say anything. I was afraid these people could attack me too. I saw what they looked like. Commandant Martin's leg had to be put off and you can see what Commandant Kloppers looks like because ...

MR MALAN: ... If I understand you correctly he talks a lot but he does not do anything?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And you want him to do?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: He has to support his people who perpetrated these acts that he ordered.

MR MALAN: His statement on television did you see that he supports the amnesty applications in principle but he is sorry that you are looking for an order that does not exist?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I got my order from this person here. This man gave me the order. Other than that I cannot say anything.

MR MALAN: My question is; do you have knowledge of what Mr Terreblanche said last night? Do you know that he was on TV last night?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes I do.

MR MALAN: Is your deduction then that last night he said that you should not get amnesty? That he does not support you?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: The piece they had on TV was that he said that  he says that we sit and lie because we looking for some one who gave an order. He says sorry that he does not want to stand by his own deeds. I cannot answer for that sorry. I had a person who gave me an order but where he got it from.

MR MALAN: Why are you angry with him because he was not part of the person who gave you the order? You said Mr Kloppers gave you the order. You refer nothing to Eugene Terreblanche you refer to Mr Kloppers.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I was directly under Mr Kloppers and Commandant Martin. They received the instruction. I did not question the order. I just acted.

MR MALAN: Do you know that they received order or do you know that you received order?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I know that I received order.

MR MALAN: That is right you do not know if they received order. They just tell you that.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes, but you need to ask him. He is here to testify.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us you were one of the people who got out of the Sentra.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: To assault the people there?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said they were assaulted because when questioned they did not give satisfactory answers or explanation?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was the answer not satisfactory?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: They came out of the gate of a plot close to Mr Martin's plot. It was relatively late that evening and they looked suspicious and it is suspicious they walking on that time of the night coming out of a small holding. And we got out and we asked them what were they doing there, do they live there. And they said no they do not live there. And we assumed that they were perpetrator and we assaulted them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you assume that because they gave you their own explanation as to why they were there?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct Chairperson but speaking for myself I was ready that evening after what Commandant Kloppers told us and I was hasty in assaulting these persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that was also part of what you were supposed to do that night?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson we at the house of Commandant Martin we decided that we going to put up the roadblock. That was not my instruction to assault people along the way but I did it and Commander Kloppers reprimanded me. And not only myself but the other persons, we were all reprimanded and disciplined, told to get into the car and continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do something in the presence of the person under whom you were, why did you go and do something which was not part of the operation that night?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson I think we were hasty and we were nervous. Why we did it I cannot answer that now.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is it not because that night you were just looking for black people to harass and assault?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That was not our order. I acted outside my orders there and I was disciplined as I said by Commandant Kloppers regarding my action and all of us who got out of the vehicle we were disciplined. Because it was not part of our instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: We were told about the training that you people received in terms of policy and military discipline.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot imagine how if the purpose was not to harass black people that night, I cannot imagine how you could while you are on a military operation if indeed you were then deviate, disciplined a member as you were militarily, deviate from that in the presence of your commanders. And do something which you knew was not in line?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: This was not in the presence of the two commanders. They were in the Mercedes, they were in front of us. And we were in the Sentra, we were behind them. Then we saw these people. They would not have seen the persons because they were quite a way in front of us. And they were not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you taking a chance?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: With regard to what? To assault these people?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you taking a chance that your commanders might not be aware of the fact that you stopped and assaulted people? Did you hope that they would not know?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I hoped that they would not know of it.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were following them weren't you?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: They were quite a way in front of us and we stopped quickly, jumped out, asked the question, assaulted them and back in the car and we left again.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what do you think they would do if they driving and suddenly the other car which is following them is not there?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Exactly what they did. They stopped the car and reversed and they reversed to where they landed up with us and he asked us what happened. They did not hear the shout that Mr Visser said that he shot.

CHAIRPERSON: You must have known that they would realise that you had stopped and started questioning black people and assaulting them?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: They knew that and they reprimanded us.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you give the cassette to Mr Meiring?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: When we got to the City Hall for the first time. Excuse me Mr Chairperson. I did not give the cassette to Mr Meiring. I gave it to Mr Visser.