Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-02

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chisoma, what language would you prefer to use?

MR CHISOMA: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any objections to the taking of the oath?

MR CHISOMA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MR SAMUELS: May I proceed?
	Mr Chisoma, are you 27 years old?

MR CHISOMA: Yes, I'm 27 years.

MR SAMUELS: And you belong to the ANC?

MR CHISOMA: Yes, that's correct.

MR SAMUELS: And during the 1990's you were a member of the SDU in Thokoza, is that correct?

MR CHISOMA: That's correct.

MR SAMUELS: Who was your commander?

MR CHISOMA: Meneer and Ben Mashile.

MR SAMUELS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I think I've got to ask - the offences that this application applies for are in fact three offences.  They all relate to the same incident, that is the kidnapping, the murder of Mr Zulu and possession of an AK47.

ADV DE JAGER: Murder of?

MR SAMUELS: Mr Zulu.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Zulu?

MR SAMUELS: Z-U-L-U.  May I proceed?

ADV DE JAGER: And the third one is?

MR SAMUELS: Illegal possession of an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the second one?

MR SAMUELS: Murder of Mr Zulu.  Kidnapping, murder and possession.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say it's all one incident really?

MR SAMUELS: Yes, correct.  May I proceed?
	Mr Chisoma, you're applying for amnesty for the kidnapping, murder of Mr Zulu and possession of an AK47, is that correct?

MR CHISOMA: That's correct.

MR SAMUELS: Where did Mr Zulu live?

MR CHISOMA: 611 Extension 2.

MR SAMUELS: And who was Mr Zulu?

MR CHISOMA: He was a member of IFP.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  Now what orders did you get from your commanders?

MR CHISOMA: They said we must kill any member of Inkatha.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  Now relating to this incident with Mr Zulu, in what year did it occur?

MR CHISOMA: In 1994.

MR SAMUELS: And approximately in which month?

MR CHISOMA: I can't remember very well, I think it was between March or April.

MR SAMUELS: Now who was with you on this day?

MR CHISOMA: Joseph Tamo, Veli Tsotetsi.

MR SAMUELS: Now describe in your own words what happened on that day.

MR CHISOMA: It was on a Saturday morning, it was myself, Joseph and Tamo and Veli Tsotetsi.  We went to Mr Zulu's house and we took him from his house ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did he go voluntarily or did you have to force him?

MR CHISOMA: We forced him because he didn't want to come with us because we knew him as an IFP member.

MR SAMUELS: Continue.

MR CHISOMA: We took him to Mbatha's house.  This house had already been damaged and Veli shot him there.

MR SAMUELS: And what did you do?

MR CHISOMA: Veli shot him.

MR SAMUELS: Did you take part in the shooting as well?

MR CHISOMA: No, I had a gun as well but I didn't shoot him.  Joseph held his hands and Veli shot him, but I also had a gun with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you associate yourself with what they were doing?

MR CHISOMA: Yes, because I also had an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: No but even if you didn't have an AK, did you agree with what they were doing?

MR CHISOMA: Yes.  He was an IFP member and I was an SDU, so we were all in this thing.  Joe held his hands and me and Veli we pointed the guns at him but only Veli shot him.

MR SAMUELS: Did you know that being in possession of an AK47 was illegal?

MR CHISOMA: Yes, I knew.

MR SAMUELS: And finally, Mr Chisoma, another applicant, Vusi Gazide: G-A-Z-I-D-E, he will mention that you had handed to him a pump-action shotgun in about 1990, is that correct?

MR CHISOMA: It wasn't in 1990 when I gave him the gun.

MR SAMUELS: Sure.  Which year was that?

MR CHISOMA: It was in 1994.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that person that ...(intervention)

MR SAMUELS: Vusi: V-U-S-I Gazide: G-A-Z-I-D-E.  His application number is 7684/97.  It will be a matter heard in chambers.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence-in-chief for the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

MR SWANEPOEL: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

MS PATEL: Mr Chisoma, besides the fact that Mr Zulu was an IFP member, was there anything else that he had done or said that led you to killing him?

MR CHISOMA: We knew him from 1990.  The reason we left our places and ran away, it was because of them, it was because of the IFP members.

MS PATEL: No, I'm asking about Mr Zulu specifically.  Was there anything that he himself had done, who had participated perhaps in the activities of the other IFP members, that led to people having to leave their homes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary to kill him, as opposed to telling him he must stop it?

MR CHISOMA: It wasn't easy to tell an IFP member to stop.  We knew him as an IFP member and the reason we ran away in 1990 was because of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know that but did Mr Zulu do any specific - I mean, if you killed Mr Zulu, would the IFP's power be reduced?  What purpose did his death serve?  Was he a leader of some sort or something like that?

MR CHISOMA: He was just a member of IFP, I won't know if he was a leader or not but he used to go to every Inkatha meeting.  We used to see them.  I was staying in Extension 2 and he was staying there.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you see?

MR CHISOMA: What they were doing to us in 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: So you killed him, when?

MR CHISOMA: 1994?

MR CHISOMA: In 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: So you killed him for something he did in 1990?

MR CHISOMA: He was still a member of IFP and he was still participating as a member.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was he doing as a member?

MR CHISOMA: When they attacked Polla Park, he was one of them.  We knew him all along as an IFP member.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not interested in whether he was an IFP member or not, I want to know if there is any other reason, other than his membership of the IFP, that he was killed?

MR CHISOMA: He ran away when we wanted to kill him and when he came back we got hold of him.

MS PATEL: When did he run away?  You didn't mention this in your evidence-in-chief.  Is the same incident or is it a separate incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's put it this way, what has his running away got to do with the matter?  If he ran away then he wasn't a threat to you.

MR CHISOMA: In his house there were too many Inkatha members.

CHAIRPERSON: So?

MR CHISOMA: People from Polla Park came and burn down the shacks in his house and that's when the violence started.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any other private matter against him?

MR CHISOMA: The only thing I know about Mr Zulu is that he was a member of IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: And so you killed him?

MR CHISOMA: Yes, we were given orders that we should try to eliminate Inkatha members in the township.

MS PATEL: Why did you choose him specifically?  I mean, he's the only person that you've applied for, so there must have been a reason for you choosing him specifically.

MR CHISOMA: That's because he was the only one we got hold of.  If we could have got other members we would have killed them as well.

CHAIRPERSON: I have difficulty in accepting that.  You went to his house to kidnap him, surely he was not the only IFP member you knew?  Is that not so?

MR CHISOMA: Others were ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: If there was only one IFP member in Polla Park then there wouldn't be a war, would you agree?

MR CHISOMA: Others ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go to another IFP member's house, why Mr Zulu specifically is the question?  Why didn't you kidnap somebody else, another member of the IFP?

MR CHISOMA: In my section it was only Mr Zulu who was an IFP member, the rest had run away at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: And it took four years to go and kidnap him?  He must have been very illusive.

MR CHISOMA: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't get that.

MR CHISOMA: Would you please repeat your question?