Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

MR KAHANOVITZ: Throughout that evidence you at no stage said:  "Eventually it became apparent to me for what purpose I was being deployed or what one of the purposes was of my deployment in Europe, namely to assist in the procurement of arms."

LEON A MAREE: I take your point, but I don't think its - that wasn't an instruction of mine:  "Go to Germany and procure arms", that's why I didn't mention it in my evidence-in-chief.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you subsequently, on your own evidence, you subsequently received an instruction to do just that.

LEON A MAREE: No, I said if during my trips in Germany I can get this, I should do it.  Nobody gave me instruction:  "Go and procure this particular arm."  If it came my way, I was supposed to try and do this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if you happened to be travelling on the underground and you happened to overhear a conversation about somebody might want to sell arms, then you would just sort of take it up with them, if happened to come your way.  Is that your evidence?

LEON A MAREE: No, that's not my evidence.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, you agree with me you have to do something.

LEON A MAREE: But I didn't do anything.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you've already agreed that you gave evidence to the effect that you travelled on a four month trip in an endeavour to broker deals for the acquisition of war materials.

LEON A MAREE: That was part of the four months trip.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's doing something, do you agree with me?

LEON A MAREE: Yes, okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Just to clear it up Mr Maree, you said you went in 1989 to establish yourself in Stuttgart.

LEON A MAREE: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you were going to get your family across and everything else and check out the schools, housing, etc, so why now are you talking about a four month trip to Germany?  Weren't you in Germany sort of like on a semi-permanent basis, having a home there?

LEON A MAREE: No, not yet Sir.  I went on a trip first to establish contacts and check on the housing and schooling.  I returned and I went later again a second time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just to clarify.  The second time, did you in fact physically move to Germany?

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You told us you were called back to South Africa and you were here at the time of the Harms Commission.

LEON A MAREE: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I assume then that you were subsequently told:  "Go back overseas".

LEON A MAREE: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: By the way, as far as I understand you gave no evidence at the Harms Commission.

LEON A MAREE: No I didn't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I assume they were endeavouring to trace your whereabouts to subpoena you to give evidence.

LEON A MAREE: No, they weren't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They weren't interested in you.

LEON A MAREE: No, I gave a statement to Mr McNally, but he didn't call me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  You also said in your evidence-in-chief that when you were establishing these businesses in, business contacts in Zambia, Botswana, Swaziland, Namibia, Lesotho, so on and so forth to give you freedom of movement.

LEON A MAREE: Yes. Sir.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What would you do with your freedom of movement once you had it?

LEON A MAREE: That was part of the covert work. You must have freedom of movement so that you can move freely without being compromised.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, that I understand fully, but if your evidence was:  "I needed to be able to go to Lusaka, so that I could do this, that and the other", then I can understand your evidence.  You say:  "I need to establish a business in Lusaka, so that I can have freedom of movement in Zambia", but that's not your evidence.  Your evidence appears to be, you needed freedom of movement to go to these countries, but we don't understand what you were going to do once you could get there.

LEON A MAREE: I didn't know either, I hadn't received any instructions.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  And what any of this has to do with operations in Natal, could you explain that?

LEON A MAREE: Sorry, I don't understand.

MR KAHANOVITZ: This freedom of movement that you would have in Southern Africa, how would any of this relate to the fact that you were tasked to perform operations on behalf of the CCB in the province of Natal?

LEON A MAREE: Natal was given to me but I hadn't performed any operations there, but to make it that I could move to Natal without any suspicion or without questions being asked, that's why I opened a second company, so I could move to Natal and have freedom of movement in Natal.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I understand that.  That gets you as far as Durban, but now you want to travel from Durban to Lusaka.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you can freely travel from Durban to Lusaka, how does that relate to your activities in Natal?

LEON A MAREE: I don't understand what you're asking me.

MR LAX: Perhaps I could help you.  It's really quite simple.  You were to focus on KwaZulu Natal, correct?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR LAX: And in order to do that, your blue plan entailed starting Lema in Jo'burg, setting up Capall in Durban, then you had a linkage between Jo'burg and Durban, you could move between Jo'burg and Durban and then based in Durban, you could move around Natal.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR LAX: However, working in KwaZulu Natal is one thing, working in Zambia and Namibia and Swaziland is a completely different thing.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What is the relevance of working in Zambia and Namibia and those places in relation to working in KwaZulu Natal?  You see just to compare you to Mr van Zyl, for example, he was supposed to work in the Cape and he set up structures so that he could do that and he did, but he didn't work in Swaziland, he didn't work in Lesotho, he didn't work in Namibia.

LEON A MAREE: Okay.

MR LAX: He was based in the Cape and he moved between Jo'burg and the Cape and one would have thought that you would move between Jo'burg and KwaZulu Natal, but instead you end up in Germany and Namibia and all over the place and you don't do any work in KwaZulu Natal, so that's what's puzzling everybody here.  Do you understand?

LEON A MAREE: Ja.

MR LAX: Well not everybody, but it's certainly puzzling me because your primary focus of your job was to work in KwaZulu Natal.  Your blue plan was supposed to be to facilitate that.

LEON A MAREE: My blue plan, I did it so that I can have access in Natal. Because I had a company exporting to Africa, I had to move to - I had to go to these countries, not for any operations, to do my blue plan.  There was no other thing that was intended there.

MR LAX: But you see, that's what also puzzles me.  If your job was to work in KwaZulu Natal, then Capall was sufficient to facilitate that.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR LAX: Why do you need a company that's trading with the rest of Africa, which doesn't have anything to do with being based in KwaZulu Natal.

LEON A MAREE: No, no first of all, the first company, Lema, was a company that worked with the rest of Africa.  Natal didn't - Capall didn't work with the rest of Africa.

MR LAX: Precisely, that's precisely the point, do you understand?

LEON A MAREE: I'm sorry, I don't understand what your point is.

MR LAX: You see, we were led to understand, your evidence comes in the context of the evidence we've already heard and the evidence we've already heard is that people were regionalised and that you were given KwaZulu Natal to work with.

LEON A MAREE: Okay.

MR LAX: The purpose of the blue plans was to provide cover in your areas of operation.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR LAX: So why establish Lema which has got nothing to do with your area of operation, because it's between Jo'burg and the rest of Africa?  Just hear the rest of the question.  Rather than just establish Capall which provides a good base in Durban for you to work in the rest of KwaZulu Natal?