Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR MAZIBUKO: There is nothing I can say because I don't know how long we took to cross. If I may say, to cross there it takes seconds but I did not observe how long we took.  I would not know as to whether all of us, how long did we take.  I did not pay attention to the time, how we took, my worry was just to cross and go to Madala hostel.  I didn't observe.

MR DA SILVA: I gain an impression that you're not very clear about the time of when the group crossed the road, are you able to estimate more or less when this happened, at what time of day?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't want to lie, I don't want to lie what time was it.

MR DA SILVA: My information is that it would be approximately at 10.30 in the evening, would you dispute that?

MR MAZIBUKO: If they say that, I would not dispute, I'm listening.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm sorry to interrupt but it might become relevant later.  Just for the purposes of clarity, when my learned friend says: "My information is that it took two minutes for the group to cross the road" and so on, is this material that emanates that emanates from the South African National Defence Force, in which case one would then be able to use it in cross-examining such witnesses or does it come from a different source?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, those are my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Those are his instructions.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, unfortunately that doesn't assist me.

CHAIRPERSON: Suffice as to say that what he is putting to this witness is on the basis of his instructions.

MR BERGER: From the Defence Force?

MR DA SILVA: I only act for one party, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Put another question.

MR DA SILVA: May it please you, Mr Chairman.
	Now a last aspect, Mr Mazibuko, from where you were standing and looking at these vehicles, can you estimate at all or could you give an idea of how many soldiers were in the vehicles?  Is it possible for you to do so?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I would not be able to estimate.

MR DA SILVA: My instructions are that on the single vehicle there were four soldiers, would you dispute the amount of soldiers on the vehicle that was closest to you?

MR MAZIBUKO: I will not disagree with you because I don't know or I did not know at that time how many soldiers were in one car.
	I want to explain to you shortly in this way;  when you look on one side, you can only see their hats or their heads.  On the side where I was standing I saw that soldiers were inside but you would not be able to tell how many soldiers are in that car or in that vehicle.

MR DA SILVA: I have not further questions, Mr Chairman.  There is one aspect that I undertook to come back to the Committee about, and that was in regard to the distance between the applicant and the furtherest wall.  My attorney measured the distance and he measured 29 paces, so the estimate of 30 paces is approximately correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I take it that in regard to the question of the approximate time that the motor vehicle you said was in around the vicinity, is 10.30?

MR DA SILVA: That is correct and that is precisely why I put it to the witness, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr da Silva.

MS CAMBANIS: Honourable Chairperson, may I ask, following Mr Berger's enquiry, about what Mr da Silva has been putting, he has furnished us with a copy of the reply to our memorandum and nowhere in that memorandum does he talk about information that a group was seen crossing, that it took a period of two minutes.  We don't, or I don't understand what he means by his instructions, it doesn't appear in his reply, is he going to tender a witness, is there a report or what is this information, is it going to be placed before this Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of this inquiry in these proceedings, we are satisfied that he is acting on his instructions.  We know that he is acting for the Defence Force and those are the instructions given to him by the Defence Force.
	Whether he will call witnesses is a matter on which he has to make a decision.  The reason why he is here is because the Defence Force is implicated and that is why he is here.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms ...(indistinct)

MS TANZER: No re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Mazibuko, you mentioned Richard Dlamini, Mr Matanda 
and Mr Mkhize going round to various rooms telling people to go and burn the items that were looted from Boipatong, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Now when Mr Mkhize gave evidence yesterday, he denied any knowledge of goods being burnt or playing any part in giving any instructions for those goods to be burnt.  Now in fairness I just want you to comment on that.

MR MAZIBUKO: Mr Mkhize did not - if he disagrees with that fact, I don't know but I saw him and that is why I testified before this Commission that I saw him.

MR LAX: Thanks.  Were you aware that Victor Keswa was reputed to have a gang?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know that.

MR LAX: And all the allegations about his activities which led to him being called "The Monster of the Vaal", did you know about those activities?

MR MAZIBUKO: I didn't know about those activities.

MR LAX: Did you know about the allegations?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I learnt from people when they were commenting about him but the way I knew him he was not like that, the way he was portrayed.

MR LAX: Did you ever ask him about those allegations?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not.

MR LAX: You were never part of any gang that he may have led?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I have never been part to any gang.

MR LAX: Why did you go and visit him in jail?

MR MAZIBUKO: The reason was that he was my friend even whilst we were in the township.

MR LAX: Now, you said that you were aware of the complaints of the residents, you were questioned about the complaints of the residents, about the attacks on them, and you went on to say that you were one of those people who were complaining, do you remember that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do remember.

MR LAX: You said you weren't interested in attending any of the meetings, you were just interested in the safety of your family and dealing with the people who were attacking your family, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, you're right.

MR LAX: So what steps did you take to deal with those people who were attacking your family?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I was at Madala hostel, what was in my mind firstly was the welfare of my family, as to where they are, are they safe or not, the house is not burnt, there is no-one within my family who has been attacked.  Those are the issues which occupied my mind.  When it entered my mind, anything which I would do at that time I would not be able to concentrate, I would not even have an appetite because I would be eating and I would be thinking of them as to what are they eating at that time or do they have that time to eat.  So those are the issues which occupied my mind all the time.

MR LAX: I understood that your family was attacked, am I mistaken in that understanding?

MR MAZIBUKO: Not that they were attacked.  I thought perhaps they would be attacked or if they can be attacked what could happen to them.

MR LAX: So they weren't attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, they were never attacked but people came to look for me in my house.

MR LAX: Then what were you complaining about?  Your family weren't attacked, what complaint did you have?