Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, at the stage when I submitted the application I wasn't absolutely sure that I had shot Mr Godolozi and then later on during consultation and after Mr van Zyl had asked me ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not correct that you re-visited the situation - thought about it, after Mr Lotz was taxed on that aspect this week?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct but before that when he also submitted his application I was also of the opinion that I had shot Godolozi but at that stage I wasn't absolutely sure.

CHAIRPERSON: It would have made no harm when you made your statement to have added - just as you did yesterday, to have added that van Zyl shot so and so and Lotz shot so and so - just as you did yesterday.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, true.

ADV NYOKA: I don't want the particular details but after shooting them and burning them and putting the ashes in the bag, is that all that you did Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV NYOKA: I'm going to ask this for the second time to be sure, is that all that you did?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can continue and say that after the bags and the content was thrown into the Fish River afterwards.

ADV NYOKA: You noted that I asked you twice, not so - I was fair to you, I asked you twice, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps to the annoyance of Mr Nyoka, why don't you say as far as I can remember and qualify your answer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's what I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nyoka?

ADV NYOKA: I just want to ask you two aspects about that one.  If you shot a person outside and you wanted to cover your tracks, why is that you did not clean that blood to remove the evidence that there was shooting outside - because you did not mention that?  Any comment?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Please repeat the question.

ADV NYOKA: My question is: "If you shot the three Pebco leaders outside and there was blood - in order to cover your tracks, you would have cleared the blood for any intruder in that place so that he or she does not see that there was something happening there"?  In other words, why did you not clear the blood?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was close to the pile of wood that they were shot and it wasn't necessary to clear the blood because there was a fire - it was burnt.

ADV NYOKA: I put it to you that that is not correct, Mr Mamasela said: "They the Askaris, were engaged to clear the blood after the assaults", that is why I'm asking that specific question.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mamasela wasn't present with the elimination of the three deceased and there wasn't any blood that we had to clear up.

ADV NYOKA: And secondly, why did you not try to retrieve the cartridges from the rifle - three cartridges.  Was one shot - the cartridge must have gone off, the second one shot etc., why did you not try to check for them and remove them because that was never said by anyone?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I can't remember that.

ADV NYOKA: You cannot remember because no firearm was used, that is the reason - no weapon was used.  If you were the professionals you proclaim to be, you would have checked for cartridges Mr Nieuwoudt, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, but they were shot.

ADV NYOKA: In conclusion - and I'm going to talk about myself now, it is not correct that the legal options do not have the desired effect, the very presence of security vehicles in the township moving slowly instil fear in a person like me.  I was so afraid of you Mr Nieuwoudt, I never ventured to go to prison or to go to ...[indistinct] because I was so afraid of you - even looking at the cars that you drove, so it's not true that you did not instil fear in the majority of people.   I'm pleased to announce that I'm no longer afraid, any comment?  No further comment.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I'm just waiting for silence, I can comment.

ADV NYOKA: Please comment.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Nyoka, I have never instilled any fear in any person and I've never seen you at any meetings, so I don't know what you refer to.  I only executed my duties and my task and I'm grateful that you don't have any fear anymore with the present Government and that we now have peace in the country.

ADV NYOKA: Maybe I'm applying for amnesty for being so fearful - no further questions or comments.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV NYOKA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Hartle?

MS HARTLE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Nieuwoudt, what is your motivation for applying for amnesty?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: My motivation is that I'm going to use this process so that we can enter the future in a peaceful manner, it is a process which has been created and of which I would like to make use.  I'm sorry that the family had to lose a father in this process but unfortunately it was due to the conflict of the past.

MS HARTLE: This is the first time that we hear any mention of an apology.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I have apologised in my other applications.

MS HARTLE: In this matter Mr Nieuwoudt, it's the first mention that we have of an apology.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MS HARTLE: "Verrelangs"

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MS HARTLE: And when did you make your application for amnesty - the various applications, I assume that you lodged them simultaneously?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: On the 13th of December.

MS HARTLE: And that would be after you were named by Colonel Roelf Venter in the hearings in Johannesburg in October last year?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MS HARTLE: Would you have brought this application but for the fact that you were named?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, at that stage I was in the process of applying for amnesty.

MS HARTLE: Why not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because I still had a case against me and I did not trust in the process at that stage.

MS HARTLE: You recognise the objectives of the Act and the purpose of this Commission and the application for amnesty?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MS HARTLE: Mr Nieuwoudt, I must put it to you that in my many years of experience as a jurist, I have never encountered before somebody relating such gory details of a death without showing a flicker of emotion on his face.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is your observation.

UNKNOWN: How many years experience Ms Hartle?

CHAIRPERSON: Your observation many not necessarily be correct, there are some of us who could say that when he came to mentioning gory details there was a noticeable change in the way that he was talking.  I'm trying to say to you certain things are better left for argument than to be dealt with in argument - they're highly argumentative in nature.

MS HARTLE: As the Committee pleases.
	The decision to eliminate the Pebco 3, would you say that that could be attributed to the very successful stay-a-way which had been organised in Port Elizabeth on the 17th, 18th and 19th of March 1985?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not only with the stay-a-way actions but we were in a state of war and conflict, anarchy, unrest.

MS HARTLE: Pebco itself wasn't an unlawful organisation   ?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MS HARTLE: And isn't it so that the difficulty you had was that they were gaining empitis while they were doing things very lawfully?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MS HARTLE: Why do you say no?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because they were directly responsible for the creation of the M-Plan and - if I can use the terminology of people's power for people's war concept.

MS HARTLE: Now at some stage you decided that you would prioritise political activists as such - I'm referring to page 123 of your submissions in paragraph 6.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Can you just mention the page again please.

MS HARTLE: Page 123, typed page 32.