Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

JACK MBELE: This group was in front.  Some people would be hiding and upon realising that the first group of attackers had passed, they would come out to us maybe for help and then we would finish them off.

MR BERGER: Well, please will you tell the Committee what actually happened when you and your group went through Boipatong, did you find any people?  Did you attack any people, did you kill any people?

MR BERGER: After we chased after the comrades the other men we should take the street leading to Slovo Park.  It was myself, Makuka, Khosi and Demu.  The people started smashing or destroying houses.  When we were in the other section of the township next to Slovo Park there was another person who came from the direction of the Slovo Park and he wanted to cross the street into the township.  Because we were right at the back, Makuka shot him.  I think he shot four or five bullets.  We saw him at the time of his falling.
	Now this person from a distance looked like a man but when we approached it was a woman.  When we came close to this person we realised, we said "this is a woman" and she was wearing a pair of trousers.  Then we just consoled ourselves, we said they are also supporting the comrades.  
	We passed and went on until we reached the vicinity of the firms.  Now people were running away from the township into the firms.  I took part in the shooting of those people who were running from the township towards the firms.

MR BERGER: So are you saying that you did not attack anybody in Slovo Park?

JACK MBELE: Nobody.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you go into the houses and look for people to kill?  Wasn't that your purpose in going into Slovo Park in the first place?  You said a little while ago that after the first group of attackers had passed through there were other people hiding and who would come out.  Did you go looking for them?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, when we approached the corner it appeared to me that we would not even find anyone even if we get into the houses because the first group had already passed and these windows were smashed and the property was damaged.  Now the people who would be running in the streets were the ones I would have shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you shoot at those people?

JACK MBELE: Chairperson I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Now a minute ago you told us that when you approached the corner there was a group of people which was ahead of you and the people of, who were in Slovo Park would hide from this group and once this group which was ahead of you had gone past, these people would come out of their hiding and approach you for help. and the interpretation we got here was that "we would then finish them off".  Is that what happened?

JACK MBELE: I don't think those people would come straight to us because we had white bands around our heads.  Now it would be very clear to them that we were part of attackers, I don't think they would have come to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what I've just said is what was interpreted to us as having been said by you.  Do you understand that?

JACK MBELE: Yes I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did any people approach you for help after - or at least advance towards your group after the first group, after the group that you had, were following, had gone past whatever point?

JACK MBELE: No, nobody.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why did you tell us then that when you were approaching the corner and I assume this was the corner approaching Slovo Park, there was a group which I think you said was approximately 200 paces or metres ahead of you.  Did you say that?

JACK MBELE: That's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went on to say that once this group had gone past, the people who had been hiding from them would come out and approach you for help.  Did you say that?

JACK MBELE: Not to approach us and ask help, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what did these people do?

JACK MBELE: We had this in our mind, Sir, that the people would see that the first group had passed already and they would come out.  On coming out we thought that they would have come to us thinking that we were not part of the attackers but because we had white bands some of us left that kind of thinking.  Now there was this one person who was from the Slovo Park into the houses.  Makuka shot at that person.  We ran towards that person and we realised that it was a woman.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, I understand that.  What I wanted to understand is;  you see when the people in Slovo  Park saw this first group of about, which was ahead of you, they would hide, is that right?

JACK MBELE: There's a technical problem Sir and the equipment cuts.  I can't hear the interpreter properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what I'm saying is, the people in Slovo Park, well they probably saw this group which was ahead of you went to hide somewhere.  Did you not nod your head?  Say yes or no.

JACK MBELE: Yes they would probably hide somewhere.

CHAIRPERSON: Now once this group has gone past that particular point, I understood your evidence to suggest that these people would then come out thinking perhaps that it was safe ?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then they will come upon you?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you'll finish them off?

JACK MBELE: According to us we were going to finish them off.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did you shoot at those people who emerged?

JACK MBELE: It is this person that I referred to already that she was not approaching us but she was heading for the township and she was walking alongside or in the side of Makuka, then Makuka shot at her and she fell.

CHAIRPERSON: But what about those people that, you know, forget about that person.  I've heard your evidence about that person.  I'm just asking you about those people who would, when they see this group which was in front go and hide and once the group has gone past a particular point, think of it as safe, come out, came upon you, did anything like that happen?

JACK MBELE: Nobody came out Sir.

MR LAX: Just - if you can, you don't have to change your headphones, the problem is that this little item mustn't be under your papers.  That's blocking the signal, this thing.  You must keep it open and not under the paper, that's why you can't hear.

JACK MBELE: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, if I understand your evidence now it's that you expected the people who had hidden from the first group of attackers to come out but they never did.  Is that correct?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You expected these people to come out, to see you, to think that it was safe and to ask you for help, correct?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I didn't have that feeling, I didn't have that in my mind that they would come straight to us.  What I had in mind was the person would be hiding after the first group had passed, the person would come out, upon seeing this person I would shoot at him.  That was in my mind.

MR BERGER: No, Mr Mbele, your evidence was that people who were hiding, maybe they would come out, come to us for help and we would then finish them off.  That was your evidence, correct?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, please understand me, I am saying I did not have that in mind that they would come to us because of the white bands.  These bands were quite visible and white and these people would have realised that the people with white bands around their heads are part of the first group.  Now we were looking for people who were hiding from the first group and because of fear, after the first group had passed, they would come out and then we would finish them off.

MR BERGER: I'll deal with that in a moment.  I just want to know why you gave evidence when you said maybe they would come to us for help.  Why did you give that evidence?