Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

MR SAMUEL: Could you tell us specifically yourself when you administered this torture, where were you, on the ground floor or any other floor and if so, which floor?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I am explaining that the other floors had code numbers to gain entry so we were on the ground floor.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
JUDGE DE JAGER
"We arrested Abel's brother and took him to the fifth floor Security Branch to torture him so that we could find his brother.  I was present when he was tortured and I ..."
He was interrogated by Landman and Landman ordered you to torture him.
"We tied him  with bandage, we lied him down and covered him with a blanket"
and I think you then described about rolling him in the blanket.
"I tubed him, I suffocated him, I think five or six times.  It went on for about three hours."
Now you're talking about something on the ground floor.  We're interested in what you did, because you're applying for amnesty, so tell us what you did.

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I'm saying, if I recall well, it was not on the fifth floor, it was on the ground floor because he had two torturings.  He was tortured while he was sitting on a chair, that was the torture and the other torture where I was involved, was when he was covered or rolled in a blanket.  I made a mistake by saying it was in the fifth floor.

MR SAMUEL: So are you saying that that torture when he was covered with a blanket happened on the ground floor?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, all torturing, the torturing happened on the ground floor, I don't know whether there was any other torturing because we left them there.

MR SAMUEL: When you say "we left them there", who is the we you're talking about?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We left them at the office with Landman.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Samuel wants to know, you are using the royal pronoun "we", you and who?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It was around four, five o'clock in the morning, so we were knocking off, we were going home, so we left and behind we left Landman and them.  The Security Branch of Welkom was also here, they brought that information.

MR SAMUEL: Well, Mr Norman Choane says that the torture on him took place, he cannot recall for how long, but he says it went on right through until the sun came up, around 7 or 8 in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: That would accord with the applicant's answer.  He said we did it until round about 4 a.m.  I don't know what happened to him thereafter, whether he was further tortured, he doesn't know.

MR SAMUEL: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Samuel.  Any re-examination Mr Johnson?

MR JOHNSON: I've got no re-examination Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JOHNSON
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to call any other witnesses?

MR JOHNSON: That is the case for the applicant as well.  There's no further witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Johnson.  Mr Samuel, are you calling any witnesses?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairperson, I will first start with Mr Jikila.  I will just put some factors on record here.  When I received instructions here ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, firstly, are you going to call anybody, firstly?

MR SAMUEL: I'm not going to call any witness at this stage, but save for the fact that I did not consult with Mr Jikila, I do not know whether he is aware of his appearance today.  I have been to his place on two occasions and my fear is that if he does come about at any time between now and tomorrow, you know the story could change, but then I noticed in his affidavit he does mention that he discussed the matter with the applicant and he forgave him.  I do not know what to deduce from that.  My suspicion is that because he did not come forward and consult with me and even make his appearance at this hearing, the only inference I can draw is that he does not intend opposing the application.  In the premises I do not have any witnesses to call and I do not intend calling the victims as well.  They do not in principle have any problem with the application except for the statement that I've put  forth to the applicant.  Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Samuel.  I'll start with Mr Johnson t make just short submissions why we should grant amnesty, even though they do not oppose, it's still within our province to grant or refuse.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  First of all it is my submission to the Committee that the applicant has indeed complied with the requirements for amnesty being full disclosure and that it was politically motivated.  The applicant in this matter was at that stage working for a group by the name of Askari.  Now that was a government institution and ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: That was part of the police force and he received instructions from his superiors Landman and he acted on their instructions, isn't that so?

MR JOHNSON: That is exactly my point Judge, that he indeed acted on instructions at that stage.  Although Mr Choane denies being tortured by the applicant, the applicant still says that he indeed did torture Mr Choane.
	Now concerning the torture itself, the applicant has made a full disclosure and it is my submission that he should qualify for amnesty concerning all the incidents of torture.  As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Johnson.  Mr Samuel, is there any other thing in respect of submissions which you want to bring to our attention?

UNKNOWN: I believe I have made the view of the victims clear.  I would then submit that the Committee has the discretion to grant or not to grant the amnesty.  My clients do not want to in any way saw, or influence, the decision of the Committee because they basically do not have any interest in the matter.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Samuel.  Ms Mtanga.

UNKNOWN: I have no submissions to make, Chairperson.
NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  This brings us to the conclusion of the application of Silo David Thejane.  The Act requires that we give a written decision and we would reserve our decision and we'll give that very shortly, but may I thank you, Mr Johnson, you Mr Samuel and you Ms Mtanga for the assistance in this matter.  That is highly valued and appreciated.  Thank you very much.  The Committee adjourns for the day.  We'll commence at nine tomorrow, Ms Mtanga.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS