Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That is correct, but the weerwraak ...  [intervention]

MR BRINK: Yes.   And then you signed the oath.

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That is correct.    May I just add something.  Before I signed that form, Mr Botha - I have already mentioned it, Mr Botha discussed the oath with me and it was at that stage already that I said I was prepared to sign the oath, but  I couldn't do so because we did not have any witnesses at the moment.  Thank you, sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: MR SMUTS, you said in your evidence-in-chief that about 30 people, PAC people launched an attack on certain Whites in Durban that morning.

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Then you went on to say, that's now you and the other applicants, then decided to launch an attack on those people.

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, we decided to launch an attack against - to launch an attack that will - I apologise, I don't quite know how to express this correctly - we decided to launch an attack so that the Government and those organisations could be shown that the Boer people ...  [intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The essence of my question is, attacks against whom?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Against Black people.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Any Black people?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Well those were the rules that the PAC had laid down that morning.  They attacked any Whites.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Let me put it like this.  Let us accept that, that evening in that bus, there were Whites wearing PAC T-shirts.  The people who - the Whites were supporters of the PAC, what would you have done in such a case?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That's quite difficult, but the attack that the PAC had launched that morning was directed against Whites so we had to reflect that message back.  We had to make it clear that we were not going to allow Whites to be attacked and as the attack that morning had been launched by Blacks.  I don't know what - how we would have acted if they had been Whites wearing  PAC  T-shirts.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why don't you know what would have happened?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: I believe, for example, if it had been Whites with PAC T-shirts who had murdered those people and that evening I could have found Whites who belonged to the PAC, then I would have done the same.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Isn't the reason for the difficulty of this question for you - isn't the reason you - what you actually had in mind was to attack people purely because they were Black.

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, that's not the case at all.  That's why we say we had also declared war on the Government of the day, and that was a Government of Whites.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now I don't understand at all, MR SMUTS, you were intending to attack any Black people.

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That's right, but the people who had attacked the Whites that morning were Whites - were Black people.  I couldn't then go and attack White people if it had been Black people who had attacked White people.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Irrespective of whether those people belonged to the PAC,  it was good enough that they were Black - if they were Black that was quite good enough.

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Those were the rules of the PAC's murders ...  [intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm not asking about the PAC, I'm asking if for you, it was good enough.

ADRIAAN SMUTS: It was a military strategy.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You still haven't told me if it was good enough for you as long as the people were Black.   Was that your attitude?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That is right because that morning Whites had been attacked, so it was good if they were Blacks.

SISI KHAMPEPE: MR SMUTS, why did you believe that Mr Botha was acting on the orders of the Orde Boerevolk?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Because Mr Botha told me that he had already sworn the oath.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But did he at that time tell you that he was acting in his capacity as the leader of the Orde Boerevolk?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was the decision to attack the taxi made?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: On the way to Durban.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So before you left for Durban, you had not decided on who the target would be for your counter-attack?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you react to the news - let me first ask this, how did you react to the news when you heard that PAC members or alleged members of the PAC, had attacked Whites at the beach front, what was your reaction?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: When Mr Botha told me about this, I was shocked because we believed that the Black on Black violence would actually change to Black on White violence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you react the way you did because you were shocked that Blacks had attacked Whites or you reacted because a Black - members of a Black political organisation had attacked Whites?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: I reacted that way because an organisation which was a threat to the Boer people, had attacked.  That is why I reacted in that way.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what belief did you have that the people had launched the attack, were in fact members of the PAC?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: I was going by what Mr Botha had told me because he was my cell leader and I did not think that he would tell lies about such a thing.  And he told me that he had heard that on news broadcasts during that day.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your evidence you've just stated that you believe that - in Botha because he was your Commander in the AWB, you remember saying that?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Could you have believed that a mission could have been carried out under instructions of the AWB, could you have believed that way at the time?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, because Mr Botha explicitly told me that the instructions came from the Orde Boerevolk and that this attack would be launched under the banner and instructions of the Orde Boerevolk.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know when Mr Botha had received those instructions from the Orde Boerevolk?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know how he received those instructions?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Mr Botha just one day told me that he had been to a meeting of the AWB, and that the Orde Boerevolk had approached him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm talking about the instructions. What instructions did they give him?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Mr Botha just told me that the Orde Boerevolk had given orders that as far as politically orchestrated violence was concerned, a violence in which Whites were killed, for every one White person that died, ten Blacks would be killed.  Ten Blacks had to die.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what he told you on the evening of this incident?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, he told me this on the occasion when he gave me this oath form to look at and discuss.

MR PRINSLOO: No re-examination thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

MR WILKINSON: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Purshotam still here? Yes.  Mr Purshotam do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MR PURSHOTAM: No.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PURSHOTAM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED