Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: I want to follow up on the question that my learned friend asked earlier.  You, as a member of the ANC an being its marshall, were there things that the ANC could not do, that the ANC was prevented from doing because of the activities of the deceased?  Were there such?

MR LEKITLANA: Yes, there were such activities.

<UNKNOWN>: What were those activities?  What were those activities that the deceased prevented from taking place?

MR LEKITLANA: When we had mass meetings the deceased would come and attack us together with his gangsters and we were marshalls to stop such actions to take place.

MR LEKITLANA: In a nutshell, what you are telling this Committee is that the deceased was a nuisance in that regard.

MR LEKITLANA: That is correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

ADV DE JAGER: But you as marshalls were armed, you had guns as marshalls to protect the community, the meetings.

MR LEKITLANA: I don't know, because I didn't have a gun.

ADV DE JAGER: When he attacked or disturbed the meetings, didn't the marshalls shoot him?

MR LEKITLANA: He had never been shot at all during our meetings.

ADV DE JAGER: But he disturbed the meetings, so why didn't
4	the/...
125	MR LEKITLANA
the marshalls act against him while he was disturbing the meetings?

MR LEKITLANA: There were actions to take because we tried to bring the matter to the police but there was nothing coming out of those reports.  We didn't even trust the police at all.  He would be arrested in the morning and in the evening would be back in the township.  We lost hope in the police;  we stopped negotiating with them.

ADV DE JAGER: The police never prosecuted any of these gang members?

MR LEKITLANA: Not even one of them was arrested and prosecuted.

ADV DE JAGER: This man Oupa, wasn't he in gaol with you?

MR LEKITLANA: Are you talking about Oupa?  No, he wasn't in prison with me.

ADV DE JAGER: There wasn't any member in prison with you at a stage?

MR LEKITLANA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: A member of his gang.

MR LEKITLANA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: What is his name?

MR LEKITLANA: It is Oupa Madele.

ADV DE JAGER: So in fact he was prosecuted, Oupa.

MR LEKITLANA: He had just been arrested.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know why he was arrested?

MR LEKITLANA: Rape.

ADV DE JAGER: So the gang of Dlameni was a gang of criminals really.

MR LEKITLANA: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: They were no politicians.

MR LEKITLANA: Not.
4

JUDGE WILSON: /...
126	MR LEKITLANA

JUDGE WILSON: Do you remember making an application for
amnesty, to which a statement was attached?

MR LEKITLANA: I remember.

JUDGE WILSON: And was the statement read over to you or dictated by you?

MR LEKITLANA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you dictate it to somebody or was it read to you?

MR LEKITLANA: The co-accused was writing.

JUDGE WILSON: And it is correct, did it set out the facts?

MR LEKITLANA: The facts are from my side.

JUDGE WILSON: Are they correctly set out in your statement?

MR LEKITLANA: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Because I am reading from your statement now.  You said - page 3 of the statement - page 26 of the numbered papers
"Zenzile, who was subsequently taken to the mass meeting, it was at that meeting we learnt that the member of the ANC Women's League had died".
Do you remember that?

MR LEKITLANA: I remember.

JUDGE WILSON: "Anger amongst our people was at its
highest and when the leadership tried to rationalise the crowd to take Zenzile to the police station they were defied because the masses said the police had failed".
Do you remember that?

MR LEKITLANA: I remember that.

JUDGE WILSON: "And will not charge or arrest the deceased,
Zenzile.  Zenzile was unfortunately murdered by the uncontrollable crowd".
4	Do/...
127	MR LEKITLANA
Do you remember that?

ANSWER: I remember.

JUDGE WILSON: "The effort by the leaders to save Zenzile
failed.  Following his death 13 of our comrades were arrested, charged and subsequently three of us sentenced to imprisonment for 10 years for murder".
Do you remember saying that?

MR LEKITLANA: I remember.

JUDGE WILSON: Was that all true?

MR LEKITLANA: All true.

JUDGE WILSON: And correct?

MR LEKITLANA: And correct.

JUDGE WILSON: So was he killed at the mass meeting after the leaders had said he should be taken to the police station?

MR LEKITLANA: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you participated in that knowing it was against the orders of your leaders.

MR LEKITLANA: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Mr Lekitlana, I just want to clear something.  When you started your evidence, when you were being led by your counsel, you were asked a question as to why you killed Zenzile, and in your response you said you killed him because you were amongst those who said he must be killed, because you did not like what he did.  I want to know when was the decision to kill Zenzile taken by yourself as you have earlier stated?

MR LEKITLANA: The decision was taken at the time when we were ordered to take him to the police station.  As we were on our way the co-accused shot at him because he wanted to
4	run/...
128	MR LEKITLANA
run away and I pulled out my knife and I stabbed him.

UNKNOWN: Was there any discussion between you and Mr Lebona to kill the deceased on your way or en route to the police station?

MR LEKITLANA: No.

UNKNOWN: So when exactly did you take a decision to kill him?

MR LEKITLANA: The decision was taken at the time when the deceased pulled out his gun and the co-accused saw him and he shot at him and as he shot I was also there and I wanted to stop him from shooting the community with his gun.

UNKNOWN: Can we have some order.  You stabbed the deceased after he had been shot by Mr Lebona, is that not so?

MR LEKITLANA: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Why did you stab him after he had been shot?  What threat was he at that time?

MR LEKITLANA: He was a threat because he was still on his feet.

UNKNOWN: How many members constituted this group that Zenzile belonged to?

MR LEKITLANA: Can you please repeat your question, because I won't know which group are you referring to.

UNKNOWN: The group that Zenzile was a member of.  Was he a member of any gang?  Was Zenzile, the deceased, a member of any gang?

MR LEKITLANA: He was one member of the Kofifi(?) gangsters.

UNKNOWN: How many members belonged to the Kofifi Gang?

MR LEKITLANA: I do not know, but they were many.

UNKNOWN: Are we talking about 10 people who belonged to the Kofifi Gang?
4

MR LEKITLANA: /....
129	MR LEKITLANA

MR LEKITLANA: I cannot even tell you because 10 is very small, as you've counted.

UNKNOWN: You know Mr Oupa Mabele?

MR LEKITLANA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: A member of the Kofifi Gang.

MR LEKITLANA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What else do you know about Mr Mabele?

MR LEKITLANA: I knew him as an ANC marshall.

UNKNOWN: How did you come to know that Zenzile was in fact colluding with the police?

MR LEKITLANA: I didn't know that Zenzile was colluding with the police.  Because most of the time there was a certain woman who was a CID and I forget her name, he was always in the company of this woman.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that not because he liked women?

MR LEKITLANA: No, he didn't like women.

UNKNOWN: Mr Lekitlana, would I be correct to then say in your opinion you just knew Mr Zenzile to be a person who committed criminal acts and nothing more?

MR LEKITLANA: Can you repeat your question?

UNKNOWN: Would you say Mr Zenzile was known to you as a person who committed criminal acts and nothing more than that?

MR LEKITLANA: I didn't know him as a person committing crime.

ADV DE JAGER: I only want to ask you one question.  Where did you get the petrol from which you poured on the deceased?

MR LEKITLANA: There was a car parked next to a certain house.  I went to the owner of the car and I requested him to give me petrol and he gave me petrol.
4

ADV DE JAGER: /...
130	MR LEKITLANA

ADV DE JAGER: Before the meeting or while you were on your way to the police station?