Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

ADV SANDI: What sort of people would you say you saw?  In appearance, how did they appear to be - like how would you classify such people?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: When I entered I was already shooting but the hair was straight, I'm not sure about the colour.  Entering was a sudden decision - I cannot say precisely what type of people they are, they had straight long hair.  They could be Coloured, they could be White.

ADV SANDI: Would you say these were people you could associate with the security forces?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As I said, I was not told about the people inside the tavern, I was just ordered to get there and shoot because there would be people there.

ADV SANDI: Did you say a few minutes ago, you did not know the reason why these people were to be shot and killed?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I did say that I was not told that there would be security force people inside, it is Gqomfa's evidence that refers to security people.  Personally I was not told about any security people.

ADV SANDI: So when you were shooting, you were just shooting for the sake of shooting?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was obeying an order, I want that to be clear.  I was obeying an order, I could not defy it.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I hope I've answered your question.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Madasi, it would appear now from what you're saying and what your comrade Gqomfa has said, they were firing from the double doors which were open, is that right?

JUDGE WILSON: He has said that he doesn't know if they were open, you can't put words into his mouth Mr Arendse.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Madasi, what did you say - were they firing through open doors or were those doors closed or couldn't you remember?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: From the position I was at I could not see whether the doors were open or closed, however they were shooting from that particular position.  I don't now whether the doors were opened or closed, I was focusing to my position - they were shooting however from their end.

NORMAN ARENDSE: My question is, if they were shooting from that end whether the doors were now open or closed.  Were you not in danger of being shot at or being hit by them - by their fire?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, because there was a wall that I took cover from.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is that the wall that we see here on page 1 of the photographs, the second photographs?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now you've indicated that - or you've confirmed rather that you have heard Gqomfa's evidence and that his statement has been read to you and you confirm the contents of his statement insofar as it concerns you.  Now I just want to deal with the part where you leave the tavern - and Mr Chairman, in this regard I want to refer to paragraph 27 on page 8 of Gqomfa's affidavit or his statement rather.  Mr Madasi, it's not in that bundle it's here.
	Now Gqomfa said in his statement:
"The attack lasted for about two to three minutes, I then withdrew last, the others were already in the car which was idling and was moving very, very slowly.  After I got into the car, when we approached the robot some shots were being fired in my direction.  I rolled down the window and opened fire, I now know that the fire which I had returned had hit one Noselino Tchiquerra and fatally wounded him".
Then paragraph 28:
"From Observatory we drove back to Site C in Khayelitsha.  I instructed Madasi and Maxeba to go up - to go and dump the car".
Can you just tell us a bit more about that instruction.  Firstly is - do you confirm that instruction that you were told by Gqomfa to go and dump the car with Maxeba, is that right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you just tell us a bit more about how you went about dumping this car, where exactly did you go and so on?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I am a Capetonian born in Cape Town - Gqomfa gave us an order that Maxeba and I, we must go and dump the car.  After we'd left the comrades at Site C, I left with comrade Maxeba, I directed him towards Section 3.  He was supporting me because he said he knew certain people in Cape Town - I don't know how he knew these people, maybe they were his relatives.
	We drove until we got to Section 3 - I'm not sure about the street, however I hear here about a Street 120.  We collected our stuff from the car, we wiped the car and we left.  That is how we dumped the car.  I'm not sure whether I've answered your question in a satisfactory manner.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, is this a convenient point to adjourn?   I'm going to deal with the statement by Sibaya and the other vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll take an adjournment for 15 minutes now.

MR PRIOR: Ladies and Gentlemen, will you please stand as the Committee leaves the room, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: (s.u.o.)

NORMAN ARENDSE: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before I proceed to ask further questions on the motor vehicle aspect, can I just try and clear up something which may have or in fact I was mistaken to refer to  - the witness Justin Fouche having gone through the back door.   And that we'll find on page 50 of the record, from lines 4 onwards - page 50.   If I may just read Mr Chairman, it's in Afrikaans?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Reads
"Apart from the fact that the witness which would be Justin Fouche, or that observation had been attacked in cross-examination, criticism was also expressed with regard to his action in that he would have run towards the front while it had to be clear him that it is exactly from there that the shooting was coming from.
He insisted however that he did run down the passageway and that he did see what he had claimed to have seen.  His testimony in this regard is confirmed by his two friends or comrades, Todd and Bradley.  Todd Schoeman told the same story as the other witnesses, in addition he says that he himself, Julian and Bradley dived under the table when the shooting started.
People rushed towards the back door when there was a pause in the shooting.  He and Bradley remained under the table but he's not sure what happened to Julian.  He then looked for an opportunity to get away but first ran into a passage that turned out to be a cul-de-sac.  Bradley McNeil in the meantime managed to find his way out - or to the outside.  Once he came to the outside he returned to the back door and saw Julian Fouche running back from the side of the street entrance".

NORMAN ARENDSE: I just wanted to mention that because I was mistaken to put it to the witness or to suggest that this witness had run to the back ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: Fouche came from the front door, it doesn't say here he went to the back door - but you just said ...[intervention]

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman yes, I'm just clearing that up now - I don't see what the problem is.

JUDGE WILSON: Nor do I.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, the problem was initially ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: He never said he went to the back door.

NORMAN ARENDSE: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: He believed it.  Yes, he believed it, not Fouche.  We record that Mr Arendse, thank you very much.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Madasi, can we just come back to your dumping of the vehicle.  Yesterday you will recall, I referred to a statement which was made by one Bennet Sibaya which you'll find from pages 83 onwards on the record there which you have in front of you.  Now I want to read to you what he says and then I want to ask you to comment on what he says.  Bennet Sibaya states in English under oath
"I'm an adult male, 53 years old residing in NY72 number 53, Guguletu, contact person is Rose Sibaya"
and there's a telephone number.
"On Thursday the 30th of December 19" ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to read the entire affidavit or are you going to refer to some special portions of it?