Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

DR KLATZOW: Alright, let me re-phrase it.  Would you deny, under oath, that Armscor broke international regulations in the achievement of it's aims which was at that time the pursuit and fighting of the total onslaught?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Dr Klatzow that may well have been the case.  I have no personal knowledge of regulations that were broken by Armscor.

DR KLATZOW: Mr Hare I'm not suggesting that you did so.  I'm suggesting that as a senior member of the Armscor stable, you would have been aware that there were certain things to be done and that you couldn't just walk over to the various countries who regarded us as pariahs and buy the equipment you needed and therefore I'm not debating the rightness and wrongness, I'm debating that you had a task to be done and you did it and you did not let regulations stand in the way and I think you've agreed with that.

JOHN DAVID HARE: I've agreed in broad terms that Armscor had a task to fulfil and that it certainly made every effort to comply with that task.

DR KLATZOW: Right.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a pretty common cause Mr Hare that Armscor did break the arms embargo and that in fact fairly recently that was one of the issues that seemed to be militating [inaudible] recommendation of the US/South Africa relationships as far as those deals go because there was evidence that the arms embargo that was violated by South Africa and Armscor, wasn't that common cause?  Can't we admit without being specific that generally it was the position.  Without discussing the ethics and the wrongness or rightness of it.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Commissioner I believe that I have so indicated that that was the task that Armscor was set up for.  It was one of the main tasks that they fulfilled over a number of years.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Please let us not assume then by extrapolation that I was party to transactions of that nature or had specific knowledge and I was aware of what was going on in a variety of areas.  Dr Klatzow in a question earlier on referred to specific and detailed and intimate knowledge of the company and it's structures and I would say that Armscor, in the case of Armscor one needs to take into account that the structures of Armscor were created in a way that our knowledge was restricted to those people to whom it was essential to have that knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: On a need to know basis?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Purely on a need to know basis.

DR KLATZOW: That is exactly the point that I was getting to because, as a man well versed in commercial practises you would see, from the structure of the company that it was specifically designed on a need to know and that it was designed in a fashion which was ideally suited, if I could put it, to sanction busting and clandestine operations in order to achieve their stated aims.
 It wasn't set up for instance like Woolworths.  It was set up on a completely different basis?

JOHN DAVID HARE: That is correct.

DR KLATZOW: Right.  Now, I presume that there was a very tight chain of command at Armscor.  That people couldn't just go off doing whatever they wanted to do.  The chain of command was closely regulated?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Correct.

DR KLATZOW: And that junior members of the Armscor staff wouldn't do things that were inamicable to the well-being of the company or wouldn't do things off their own bat, there was a well structured line of orders?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I think one has to be careful with the assumption there will inevitably be a number of people who would "be doing their own thing", choosing their own way of doing things.  The task would be one that was defined, the objective defined, the way of doing it would not necessarily have been defined at all.

DR KLATZOW: That's correct but ultimately for a large capital expenditure project or for a significant project there would be a line of command and that there would be some monitoring, it wasn't a free for all?

JOHN DAVID HARE: No, it was certainly never a free for all.

DR KLATZOW: Right.  Now, there are links between Armscor of course and Somchem?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Somchem at the time was an operating subsidiary company.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.  And one of the functions of Somchem was that it was producing a variety of military ordinance, ranging from small arms ammunition through to pyrotechnics and it produced the compound called ammonium perchlorate.  Are you aware of that?

JOHN DAVID HARE: The first part of the statement is correct regarding explosives, pyrotechnics I'm less certain of, I'm not aware that they were in the business of manufacturing pyrotechnics and I'm certainly not aware of the details of particular product manufacture.

DR KLATZOW: But are you aware that they were the only company in the country who were manufacturing that kind of material, apart from AE&CI which manufactured commercial explosives?

JOHN DAVID HARE: As far as I am aware they were the only company who were manufacturing military style explosive products.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.  And Mr Hare, it will not have passed you by that South Africa was at the time, and it has been admitted officially, engaged in what turned out to be an abortive development of rockets?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I'm not aware of which style of rocket you're talking about or type of rocket you're talking about.  There were certainly rocket developments that were undertaken through the 1980's.

DR KLATZOW: Yes.  And let me be a little more specific, there was the normal military weaponry type rocket, such as surface to air and air to air missiles?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Certainly.

DR KLATZOW: And there was also, and the one that I refer to as being abortive was a rather more adventurous project to develop some sort of delivery mechanism for the fledgling nuclear industry.  Some kind of intercontinental or long range missile.  You're aware that that?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I'm aware of it.

DR KLATZOW: Right.  You must also be aware that the primary component in rocket fuel is a compound called ammonium perchlorate?

JOHN DAVID HARE: No, I'm not aware of that.

DR KLATZOW: Well, can I make you aware of it because that is in fact the case.  It is a very common chemical.  You must also be aware that part of the policy of Armscor in achieving it's aims was what has been referred to by too many of ex Armscor officials to take anything but seriously as Chinese engineering.  Do you know what the term Chinese engineering is?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I would assume that you're talking of a process which is otherwise referred to as reverse engineering.

DR KLATZOW: That's absolutely correct.  And for the enlightenment of the Commission, the principle was that you obtained by whatever means a sample of whatever it was that you wished to have and your chemists, engineers and scientists back in South Africa would copy it and then manufacture it on a proper scale.  Is that correct?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I cannot state whether it's correct or otherwise, I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: But that is reverse engineering, isn't it?

JOHN DAVID HARE: That is reverse engineering as I understand it.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.  Now many many of the products which Armscor have produced are in fact straight copies of other products which were available on the market and I will name just three for you.  The Z88 pistol which was made by Armscor is a copy of the Baretta.  The R4 is a copy of the Galleou and the R1 was a direct copy of the Belgium FN FAL Rifle.  You could put the parts from the one into the other and they would function.  You're aware of that?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I have no reason to dispute what you're saying but I have no intimate knowledge of it.