Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-26

CHAIRPERSON: You could have stopped that vehicle by firing a warning shot. Is that not so?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: We could not do that because the people using that taxi were always armed.

CHAIRPERSON: You could have fired a warning shot, the three of you to try to stop ...[indistinct]

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Our intention was to shoot the people using that kombi.  We did not intend stopping it.  We were going to kill that people.

CHAIRPERSON: You are now applying for amnesty for having killed some IFP people is that it?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: No.  I ask amnesty for killing people I did not intend to.  It has been explained to me that those were not the ANC supporters, the people we intended to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: I put it to you that you were totally reckless because you said in your evidence that even when you saw they were women and you did not intend to kill women you nevertheless proceeded to do so.  How can that conduct be explained?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Where we attacked this kombi was in an ANC area.  People staying there belong to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: This kombi picks up passengers all along the road from all areas.

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: That kombi is used by ANC people.  Those were the people we wanted.  The driver of that kombi is Qeda, who was involved in killing school children.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's come back to the question.  When you discovered that there were women in the bus, you had no intention of killing women but you changed your mind and you decided to kill them. Why?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: We did this so that the ANC can feel the pain.  Like we did.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't think about the pain of innocent passengers?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I felt the pain later, not at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR WILLS: There are a number.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please put them.

MR WILLS: Thank you.
	Do you realise Mr Dladla that one of the conditions of getting amnesty is that you have to fully disclose all the material facts concerning the incident?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Where did you get your guns from?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: We got them from Makhekhe.

MR WILLS: Where did Makhekhe get the guns from?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I do not know.  They were in one of his huts.  He fetched them and gave them to us.

MR WILLS: Have you had any military training in use of firearms?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: No.  I was never trained.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me then how you were able to use the firearms on the day in question?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)  That is not relevant.  The fact of the matter is he did and killed people, whether he knew or not how to use it.

MR WILLS: Yes, with respect Mr Chairperson, the instructions I have as regard to the issue of full disclosure is that there is in fact a deeper political connection between the supply of weapons and training and linking this individual up.  But if the Committee doesn't want me to pursue that avenue I am perfectly happy to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I mean leave it.  He has taken part in the shooting, he tells you he gets a firearm from Makhekhe, he doesn't know where Makhekhe got the guns from.  Unless you are in a position to contradict him, unless you have information to show that he is concealing that fact that he got it from somewhere else, (...indistinct) that is the kind of information then you must put it to him.

MR WILLS: Yes as you please Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Dladla I put it to you that you were in fact a trained IFP operative in that area and this in fact isn't the first incident you are involved in.

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I was never trained.

MR WILLS: Do you know a gentleman by the name of Mr Phillip Powell?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.  I know Phillip Powell.

MR WILLS: How do you know him?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I know him as one of the IFP members.

MR WILLS: But how do you know him as a member of IFP?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: Yes.
	Have you had any personal dealings with Mr Powell?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: No, I never met him.

MR WILLS: Is it true that the second applicant in this matter was in fact a chairperson of the IFP youth in that area?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Which Ndlovu?  I know him as just a member, not that he had any position.

MR WILLS: Were you yourself an active IFP member in the area?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I was just a member.  I did not hold any position.

MR WILLS: Were you at all involved in any of the political violence you referred to in the area as occurring in the area around the time of the incident?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: No, I was never involved.

MR WILLS: When you refer to the violence in the area can you tell the Committee what violence the IFP got involved in, in that area around the time of this incident?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: The IFP was being attacked by the ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question really tried to elicit an answer did the IFP members ever attack the ANC members?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: No there was no attack by the IFP.  If it happens, I did not know about it.

MR WILLS: If the Committee will just bear with me? I want to go back to the meeting that you had concerning the decision to attack this kombi.   Am I correct in saying that you were the one who took the decision, or you were the one who motivated this action, decided on the attack?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.  I am the one.

MR WILLS: And then you got, was it two other cohorts to join you?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: So in total there were three of you?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes, we were three.

MR WILLS: And the third person was Sepiwe Zondi?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Is Sepiwe Zondi still alive?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Sepiwe is deceased.

MR WILLS: Two of the persons who I represent and who were injured in the kombi on that day are reasonably sure that there were 5 people involved in attack on the kombi and they gave this information to the police. Can you comment on that?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: We were three.

MR WILLS: You mentioned that you gave all the weapons to the second applicant after the incident, is that correct?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: Yes.

MR WILLS: The police in the court indicated that when they came to your house to arrest you that you had indicated to them that you had given one of the weapons to a person by the name of Ntolo, and they actually attended with you to Ntolo's hut and they got that weapon from there. Do you recall that?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I remember that.  The firearm I gave to Mtolo was mine.  It was an AK 47 I picked up.  I then asked Mtolo to keep it for me because he had a licence.  I could not keep it.  I told the police about this and Mtolo gave the firearm to them.

MR WILLS: Was this weapon used in the attack?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: No.

MR WILLS: Why did you have that weapon?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I picked it up.

MR WILLS: I didn't ask you how you came to be in possession of that weapon. I asked you why you possessed it?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I grew up in a rural area.  I was looking after cattle when I found it hidden.

MR WILLS: If you had such an innocent past as you would have this Committee believe on your evidence, why did you not hand this weapon into the police, why did you bother keeping it?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: I had been attacked by the ANC members several times.  I kept it to defend myself.

MR WILLS: Did you ever use it for self-protection?

MABHUNGU ABSALOM DLADLA: No.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that you are not being candid with the Committee as regards the way that you and the second applicant came into possession of the firearms.