Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, I know you are no longer residing in Durban for quite some time now, but during 1987 can you please tell us, in Durban was there a mortuary, a state mortuary?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And in which suburbs were there state mortuaries?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, if my memory does not fail me, in Gail Street.

MR VISSER: Was it - was that in Durban itself?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In Gail Street, yes, Chairperson.  And then I think in Umhlazi, kwaMashu, Phoenix or Verulam.  I may be incorrect, but that is my recollection where there were mortuaries.

MR VISSER: The evidence is, but that is not clear and we will try to clear it up through evidence, but the evidence is that the deceased lived in kwaMashu somewhere.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: How far is that from Bambayi?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I don't have the exact distance, I may not be able to say.

MR VISSER: Can you say how far it was from Inanda?  I see Commissioner Lax might be able to tell us.

MR LAX: I  wouldn't be able to give you a distance at all, I was just eager to hear the answer.

MR VISSER: I hope there isn't something wrong with my question.

MR LAX: All I know is it's some distance, but exactly how far, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It is in a type of a triangle in relation to each other.

MR VISSER: I hope that Inanda is a place and Bambayi is a place, I just assumed it.

MR LAX: No, that's quite correct, they are both places set to the North West of Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, we've been handed some sort of map.  Do you have one?  Perhaps, I haven't really looked at it but perhaps if I could hand you my copy and I don't know if it's going to help at all.

MR VISSER: I'm certain it will be helpful, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It might be an idea for copies of that to be made and given to all the parties.

MS THABETHE: Okay.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we will study this and perhaps we might deal with this issue with another witness, so I can step off this issue with this witness.  Perhaps just one matter Mr Chairman, which I promised at the outset and which I forgot about to lead in evidence-in-chief, with your permission.
	Mr Botha, can you recall what exactly, or whether Mr Brand Visagie first of all, whether he on the evening of the death of Khubeka was present and secondly if he was there, what was his role and function?  Is it possible that you can recall?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot recall that Brand Visagie was present.  It is possible that he was in the vicinity.  We used the place as a base, but I cannot recall that he was present.

MR VISSER: With the interrogation or during her death?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Adv Bosman do you have any questions you'd like to ask the applicant?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Botha, just one question.  I find it difficult to visualise the circumstances were a woman is seated on the floor, where she is not bound at all and she is hit with a whip and she does not do anything.  You said she did not scream or shout.  Did she try to ward off the blows?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson, she tried to ward off the blows.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you do anything about it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I did not, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Just one aspect to clear up. There are, I'm talking now about the point at which one is at Battery Beach, how many vehicles were involved there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: As far as I can recall, two vehicles.

MR LAX: And one was the Corolla?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, the one was a Corolla and the other was a panel van.

MR LAX: And the Corolla was driven by Mbane, according to you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct, yes.

MR LAX: And only Mbane and the deceased were in that vehicle?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's my recollection, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And who was in your panel van with you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was myself, du Preez, van der Westhuizen, Basson, there may have been others, but those are the people I recall being there.

MR LAX: And you've indicated that the deceased did struggle a little bit.  I wasn't clear if I understood you correctly, did she struggle when she was being removed firstly from the Corolla?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I recall that it was so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you indicated that du Preez and I didn't get the other person, pulled her out of that vehicle?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I think all assisted him pulling her out of the Corolla and into the panel van.  The panel van had a sliding door and she was put through the sliding door.

MR LAX: It wouldn't be that easy for 5 people to move her out of the Corolla.  Presumably she was sitting in the front.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I may be pre-empting something, but during consultation I knew that du Preez said that he grabbed her from behind and moved forward with her.  Maybe he could be more descriptive...(intervention)

MR LAX: No, I'm trying to get your recollection of this.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: All that I know is that she was taken from the vehicle and loaded into the panel van.

MR LAX: Did she struggle to some degree?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, she did.

MR LAX: Did she fall down?  Did she get shoved?  Did she fight back?  Was she punched?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, it was all in one movement, pulling her out of the Corolla and into the panel van.  This was an all-in-one flowing motion.

MR LAX: And did she at any stage fall on the ground or fall against the vehicle, or I'm thinking about her ribs.  Could she have injured her ribs?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It is possible, Chairperson but she did not give any indication that she had injured her ribs.

MR LAX: You spoke of her holding her chest when she had this apparent heart attack?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: She put both hands in front of her and held onto her chest, was the way you've indicated, by grasping towards her heart.  On your version then, her hands would not have been tied.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct, I said she was not tied up.

MR LAX: Now we dealt with the question of whether there would be any need to protect the askari, do you remember that?  We had a little interchange about that earlier.  What about your informer?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: He had already been withdrawn at an earlier stage.

MR LAX: Yes, but she knew who that person was, he introduced her to the people who ultimately led to her captivity.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.  His own role, he could have explained it later that he had been misled, so he was protected in that sense.

MR LAX: You weren't concerned about his safety, there would be the necessary legend created for that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: And when you got her to the shooting range, did she struggle at all there?  Did she fight with anybody?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, she, my recollection is that she was cuffed from Battery Beach and she climbed out of the vehicle, or she was led out of the vehicle into the storage room.

MR LAX: So at the time she was picked up at Battery Beach, she was actually handcuffed?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No.  I beg your pardon, I meant she had been blindfolded.