Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-21

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: I mean that as we were shooting, they were ahead of us.  We were trying to make sure that they don't go into the bush.
	We were running after them.  There is one that was already away from the tar road as we were running.

MR BRINK: My final question, I put it to you then having regard to the scenario that you have sketched, in no sense were these two policemen cornered before they were shot.

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: Please repeat that statement sir.

MR BRINK: Having regard to the picture that you have described, in no sense were the policemen cornered before they were shot as you claim in your application form.

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: It is so, because we were shooting and we were going towards them.  They were also shooting back at us.  We did not want them to come too close to us.
	This is why I am saying we cornered them, because the firing was concentrated on them.

MR BRINK: I must pick up on this, you say you didn't want them to come too close to you, but they weren't moving towards you, they were moving away from you?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: Yes, because they were shooting, we did not want them to come too close to us, because they were shooting.  Whether they were coming towards us or they were going the opposite direction away from us, they were shooting any way.  We did not want them to shoot us.

MR BRINK: You never went to see where the policemen had fallen, did you?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: No, we never did.

MR BRINK: Why didn't you retrieve the firearms that they had been using?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: We wanted to leave the place where we were at.

MR BRINK: Nothing else.

MR BRINK: .

MR MAPOMA: No questions sir, thank you.

MR MAPOMA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR NOTUNUNU: No re-examination Honourable Chair, thank you.

MR NOTUNUNU: .

CHAIRPERSON: He is excused.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Notununu, is that all the evidence you want to present?

MR NOTUNUNU: That is correct Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman with most of the matters in respect of which I propose calling witnesses now, settled and having become common cause, the only witness that I will be calling is Mrs Ngubo, the widow of the late Sergeant Ngubo and she will testify in regard to a single aspect which is in issue in this case.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

SBONGILE NGUBO: (sworn states)

MR BRINK: Mrs Ngubo, is it correct that you are the widow of the late Sergeant Bernard Hlahla Ngubo?

SBONGILE NGUBO: Yes.

MR BRINK: Do you know the first applicant who testified today, Mlungisi Nyembezi?

SBONGILE NGUBO: Yes, I know him.

MR BRINK: How do you know him?

SBONGILE NGUBO: He stayed on the same street as we did.

MR BRINK: Where did you live?

SBONGILE NGUBO: Bongweni, Kokstad.

MR BRINK: And where in relation to your house, was Nyembezi's home?

SBONGILE NGUBO: The third house from us.

MR BRINK: In other house, two houses down?

SBONGILE NGUBO: Yes.

MR BRINK: Do you know whether your late husband knew Nyembezi?

SBONGILE NGUBO: Yes, he knew him.

MR BRINK: How can you say that with confidence?

SBONGILE NGUBO: He knew him because Nyembezi used to go to the police station and see him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat that please?

SBONGILE NGUBO: Nyembezi would go to the police station.  You see the police station was mixed with the administration and when he goes to the administration, he would see Mr Ngubo.

MR BRINK: Since your husband worked at the police station, and not you, how do you know about this?

SBONGILE NGUBO: I would also go to the police station.

MR BRINK: For how long had Nyembezi lived two houses down the road, in the same street as you?

SBONGILE NGUBO: When we got to Kokstad, he was already staying there.

MR BRINK: Did you and your husband ever spend any time socially with Nyembezi?

SBONGILE NGUBO: No.

MR BRINK: That is all Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, thank you sir.

MR MAPOMA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Notununu, have you got any?

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair, some few questions.  Mama Ngubo, I have got some few questions.  You are saying that you were staying two houses away from Nyembezi's home.
	Now, my question to you, do you own, that is yourself and your husband, do you own the house in which you are staying two houses away from Nyembezi or are you renting therein?

SBONGILE NGUBO: We are renting.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, when did you arrive in Kokstad?

SBONGILE NGUBO: A year before my husband passed away.

MR NOTUNUNU: By the way it is your evidence that there had never been any social contact of some kind, between yourselves, that is yourself and your husband together with Mr Nyembezi?

SBONGILE NGUBO: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: And the only reason you say he knows your husband, is because he used to go to the police station where your husband was in fact working?

SBONGILE NGUBO: His sister stayed next door to where we stayed.

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the answer, she is speaking Zulu and it is difficult sometimes to pick up exactly what she is saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you repeat the answer?

SBONGILE NGUBO: Can the question be repeated please.

MR NOTUNUNU: Okay, you have said in the evidence that you have just given right now, that the reason you say Nyembezi knew your husband, not your husband knowing him.  The reason why you say Nyembezi knew your husband was because Nyembezi used to go to the police station where your husband was actually working?

SBONGILE NGUBO: The reason why I say that Nyembezi used to see my husband, is because Nyembezi used to go next door to our house, to his sister.

MR NOTUNUNU: His sister was not in fact staying at the home of Nyembezi?

SBONGILE NGUBO: No, she was not staying there.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair.  My instructions from Mr Nyembezi is that no sister of his was in fact staying in the same street as their home was.  The other sister was not in fact staying at their home, was staying in another section, not in the section where the house was situated.  What do you say to that?

SBONGILE NGUBO: There is no such, he knows very well that his sister stayed next door to us.

MR NOTUNUNU: Lastly Mama, I understand that Nyembezi during that time was in fact a scholar, a student who would come back only during holidays, do you confirm that?

SBONGILE NGUBO: I don't know about that, because I would see him all the time in the township.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  In other words, you had no problem all year around, the year you were there, in seeing Nyembezi, you were almost seeing him almost every day like a person who was not in fact schooling far away in Durban, as he had alleged?

SBONGILE NGUBO: I did not say that I saw him every day, but I did see him most of the time.

MR NOTUNUNU: I put it to you that Nyembezi never at any given moment, knew your husband and if he had known your husband, there would be no reason for him not to admit to that.
	What is your comment on that?

SBONGILE NGUBO: He knew him.  I don't know why he is hiding it.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much.

MR NOTUNUNU: .

MR BRINK: One question in reply Mr Chairman.  Do you know the name of Nyembezi's sister?

SBONGILE NGUBO: I don't know her name.  I just know her as Pumla's mum.

MR BRINK: Is Pumla a child?

SBONGILE NGUBO: Yes.

MR BRINK: That is all Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, have you ever seen your husband speak to the applicant?

SBONGILE NGUBO: No,  I have never seen him talking to Nyembezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You are excused.

<UNKNOWN>: .
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CHAIRPERSON: We have done with the evidence?

MR BRINK: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to argue?