Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-03

CHAIRPERSON: I just needed that clarification Mr Claassen, because this evidence has already been given by mr Mtambo, right in the beginning.  You don't need to traverse it again.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Mtambo, can you just state how long had you been a member of the IFP?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: When I first joined the IFP, was in 1992 up until now.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Claassen, whilst we are on this point, and for how long had you been the Vice-Chairperson of the Youth Brigade?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: A year.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you first appointed as the Chair of the IFP Youth Brigade?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: In 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you approximate the month when you became such a Chair?  The incident occurred in May 1993, can you from there be able to estimate how long you had been in your position as the Chair of that organisation?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: In January.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Mtambo, you also at the beginning briefly stated that  a meeting had been held in kwaDela where a certain decision was taken.  What was the nature of this meeting?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean the meeting which was held at the creche, are you referring to that meeting?

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you just make that clear to him, it will facilitate his response I think.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, with specific reference to the meeting, you said the meetings were held at a creche, that meeting at the creche.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: We used to hold meetings and we were encouraging the youth of IFP and we were encouraging each other as to recruit other youth members, and the collection of money to help other members ...

CHAIRPERSON: Come to our rescue Mr Claassen and please try and take charge.

MR CLAASSEN: Certainly Madam Chair.  Mr Mtambo, was this specific meeting, an IFP meeting?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, it was.

MR CLAASSEN: Do you remember or recollect who was present at this particular meeting?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, I do remember.

MR CLAASSEN: Can you just briefly state who these people were?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I will mention some names, even though I cannot remember everyone who was present.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, I think we will leave it at that.  Can you approximate how many people were present at this particular meeting?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: There were about 15.

MR CLAASSEN: And were these people all IFP members?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, they were.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, you mentioned that a decision was taken, what was this decision?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say he took a decision?  That is his evidence, are you not trying to change his evidence Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN: My pardon Madam Chair, it is indeed that he said the decision was taken by him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: May I just rephrase it?

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you can just clear that with him, but he has already testified to him taking a decision, not to people who were at that meeting taking a decision.
	Maybe you need to get clarity on that.

MR CLAASSEN: As the Court pleases.  If I may approach him just for a second.  Thank you Madam Chair.
	Thank you Madam Chair, it is indeed correct as stated, the decision was taken by him.
	Mr Mtambo, could you just briefly explain the decision and why it was taken?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Because of the harassment or torture, I was injured before I took this decision.

MR CLAASSEN: How were you injured?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I was walking one day, and I was beaten up and I opened a case, but then it was never followed up.
	After I got injured, my teeth were loosened.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, do you know who these people were that beat you up?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, I do remember them.

MR CLAASSEN: Were they IFP members, were they ANC members?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: They were ANC members.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, did you know the deceased?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, I knew him.

MR CLAASSEN: How did you know him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: He was a member of an ANC organisation.

MR CLAASSEN: How do you know this?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I used to see him when they were toyi-toying, he was right in front.

MR CLAASSEN: Do you know if the deceased held any specific position within the ANC?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: What position is this?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: He was a Chairman.

MR CLAASSEN: If you say a Chairman,  a Chairman of the local branch or what kind of a Chairman?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: He was a Chairman of the Youth Brigade.

MR CLAASSEN: This was in kwaDela?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, why did you decide to kill Mr Phumayo?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: He was a brave man.  He used to attack IFP members and he used to make sure that he injured them.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, what were the circumstances like in kwaDela prior to this incident?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: There were conflicts and people were fighting.

MR CLAASSEN: Were these conflicts of a political nature?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, it was between ANC and IFP.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, you said you made this decision.  In what capacity did you decide this, as Chairman of the IFP Youth Brigade?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I took this decision as a Chairman of the IFP Youth Brigade.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, once you had committed this act, was there any gain for you personally for doing this?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: No.

MR CLAASSEN: What did you hope to gain politically?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: My aim was to gain more members because I knew that other people were going to be scared and they were going to join the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Come again, I didn't get that.  You killed him because you thought other people would be scared and would join the IFP?  By other people, do you mean the ANC people will then be intimidated and leave the organisation and join your organisation?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I mean ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Mtambo, Madam Chair, if I may, I would just like to draw your attention to the applications which you brought before this Commission.
	If I may Madam Chair, it is page 2 and 7 respectively.  Mr Mtambo, it is pointed out to you that you brought two or submitted two Form 1's, applications, which are included in your application form today, is that correct?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, if I may refer to page 3, paragraph (b) just under number 4, the question Mr Mtambo was put to you state whether any person was injured, killed or suffered any damage to property as a result of such acts or omissions or offences.
	You had written down deceased Mshenga Phumayo and six houses were set on fire, would you care to explain that?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes.  After I shot Mr Phumayo, houses were burnt.  It was after this incident.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Mtambo, could you just clarify, you are talking about houses, who burnt down these houses?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: ANC burnt the houses.  Now I cannot say who exactly, because I was hiding at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we get clarity on when these houses were burnt?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: On the 29th of May, on the same day when I killed Mr Phumayo.  After I killed him, then the houses were burnt down.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did you kill Mr Phumayo?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I can say it was half past eight or approximately, or between half past eight to nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: At night?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, at night.

CHAIRPERSON: And what time were these houses burnt down?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: It was after a while.  If I can just estimate, I will just say between ten and eleven o'clock, I don't have the exact time.

CHAIRPERSON: And to whom did they belong?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these high ranking members of the IFP?