Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

J P VAN DEN BERG: Well, we wanted to arrest them, and we wanted to also trace these safe houses and sympathisers and helpers and identify those.
	There were also observation points along this route, with people posted there to observe what was going on.  I don't know exactly who was posted where.  Because on the 24th it was Kobus Fourie and I.  We did our observation work very close to the point where the first meeting had taken place, the day that Tokkie Fuchs and I had monitored what had happened. 
	The 24th came and went and the infiltration did not take place.  That night I slept on the farm Eendvogelpan. I once again reported to Mr Coetsee that the people had not infiltrated.

UNKNOWN: What happened the next day?

J P VAN DEN BERG: The next day, once again nothing happened.  That was on the 25th of June.

UNKNOWN: Did you follow the same system, was it the normal procedure?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, correct.

UNKNOWN: And then what happened next?

J P VAN DEN BERG: What happened next was that the people made an appointment with Matthews and set a date for when they wanted to infiltrate.  According to Matthews' explanation to me, it was still at this stage only three people.  The date was set for the 8th of July.
	Matthews also mentioned to me that money had been handed to him and that he was supposed to buy clothes for some of these people.  He also showed a sort of a sweater to me at some stage, which he had bought for these people.  
	At this stage I didn't know whether the people would be armed or not.  But there was the suspicion that they could be armed.

UNKNOWN: Was the plan still that they continue as far as Pietersburg and that you would arrest them there?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, that was still the plan.  Further planning sessions were done. Mr Coetsee and I and perhaps some other people were present.  We planned that we should monitor the whole process once again.  That Sunday I then went with ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Is that the sixth?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, that's the 6th, the 6th of July, the Sunday afternoon.  I went to Alldays, to the runway there, and we contacted some of the Defence Force radio operators who had been contacted by Mr Van der Merwe or Mr Coetsee and they were supposed to accompany us to go and activate observation posts.

UNKNOWN: Now why were they supposed to go along?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Because we had very little radio communication in that area. Even the Defence Force radios weren't hundred per cent effective.  We had a problem with communication.

UNKNOWN: So their radios were better than yours?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now how many Defence Force went along with you, and how many went along with Kobus Fourie?

J P VAN DEN BERG: One White and one Black man went along with me and with Kobus Fourie, I also remember one White and one Black man, maybe more.

UNKNOWN: You then went to the crossing point on Kruitfontein?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes.  Two of these Defence Force men, the White and the Black man and myself, then went into Botswana, perhaps as far as two kilometres, perhaps a little bit less.  There was a koppie, a little hill alongside a path which came down to a fountain, and that is where we took up our position.

UNKNOWN: Can you remember the names of these Defence Force men who were with you?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No.

UNKNOWN: Right, continue, you were on this koppie. Alongside this road which led to a fountain. How far was the fountain from your observation point?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Approximately five to 800 metres, perhaps a little bit more.  But I could actually physically see the fountain through the binoculars.

UNKNOWN: Tell the members of the Committee, did Matthews know of all these arrangements and what you were planning to do and what was expected of them;  was he told this?

J P VAN DEN BERG: In my opinion Matthews had been informed.

UNKNOWN: Was he present during the planning?

J P VAN DEN BERG: He wasn't at each and every planning session.

UNKNOWN: Were you satisfied that he knew what was expected of him and what was to happen?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, I was satisfied that he knew, and according to me he was not under any compulsion.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that wasn't the question, but please continue.

J P VAN DEN BERG: That night the two Defence Force men and I moved into this observation point, that is the Sunday night.  We stayed there on Monday and then on the Tuesday morning, four o'clock, maybe half past four that morning, that is the morning of the 8th of July, one of the Defence Force members woke us up, me and this other person, and said that he could hear a vehicle.  Our observation post about from where I am to those doors away from the path, about 60, 70 metres.

UNKNOWN: Fifty metres?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, I don't know. I am not good at estimating distance in buildings.

UNKNOWN: So it is about 30 metres?  Please continue.

J P VAN DEN BERG: But that's how far our observation post was away from this little path.
	Now when we saw that there were vehicle lights approaching us we concealed ourselves behind a stone, closer to the path. There was also a gate through which this vehicle had to pass.  The vehicle stopped. At that stage we were about ...

UNKNOWN: Please continue.

J P VAN DEN BERG: At that stage we were about 50 metres away from the path.

UNKNOWN: Mr Van den Berg, please forgive me - Chairperson, I really don't think that you are interested in all the fine detail.  Mr Van den Berg, won't you please just get to the main points.  It is not really relevant how far away you had hidden yourselves.  If it is important we can return to it. Just tell us what happened that day and then we go to the next event.

J P VAN DEN BERG: I saw that there were six people in the back of the vehicle, it was a red Toyota Hi-Lux, with a white canopy.  In the front there were three people, Mabena drove the vehicle.  They drove down to the fountain.  They stopped there, switched off the lights, and when it became light we saw some of them moving around there.  Matthews came through the river and met the people there.  He came back.  Kobus Fourie contacted us on the radio and told us that the people were not armed or that they were waiting for arms and money.  Later that afternoon the two Defence Force people and I withdrew and we went back to the South African side.  We then heard that the infiltration had been postponed for the morning of the 10th.

UNKNOWN: Did you speak to Matthews?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I spoke to Matthews at Alldays.

UNKNOWN: What did he tell you?

J P VAN DEN BERG: We didn't talk much about what had happened there.  He told me that there were six people who were planning to infiltrate, and that the infiltration had been postponed for the 10th.

UNKNOWN: Was anything said regarding weapons?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Between Matthews and myself, I am not sure, but between myself and Kobus Fourie, he did say that they were waiting for weapons.

UNKNOWN: So the infiltration was postponed for the 10th. Did you report this to Mr Coetsee?

J P VAN DEN BERG: The infiltration was postponed to the 10th. I reported to Mr Coetsee and I heard later that the Corolla car broke down and was towed away or removed. I then also told Mr Coetsee that there were now six people and that the car would be too small to transport them all, and he gave me the assurance that he would make arrangements for a bigger vehicle.

UNKNOWN: Now did you stay at Kruitfontein or in Vogelpan the whole time or did you come back to Pietersburg?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I was at Alldays and at some stage, I am not quite sure when, it might have been Tuesday, I came to Pietersburg to report personally.

UNKNOWN: Now what happened on the 10th?