Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-28

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I will now call applicant Petrus Tapelo Mohapi.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: (sworn states)

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Mohapi you are one of the applicants in this matter is that correct?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is true.

MR MTHEMBU: And is it further correct that at the trial you were convicted and sentenced for murder and robbery?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is true.

MR MTHEMBU: Now at the time of the commission of this offence to which political organisation did you belong to?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Mr Mthembu and the Chairperson, what I would say that when I committed this offence I was a member of the African National Congress Youth League. What I would explain is that I was on the verge of defecting from that organisation Mr Chairman to tell you the honest truth.  That's why I joined the task force.  So even though I had a membership card of the ANC, but I was in the process of leaving the African National Congress.  The only thing which made tell those in the leadership within the organisation, to tell them of my desertion for me to write there that I am a member of the African National Youth League is for me to put it clear to the Committee, that when they investigate it should be found that I was a member of the African National Congress but didn't receive any instructions from that organisation.  For me to explain it clearly that I should come here before this Committee to tell the truth and only the truth and nothing else but the truth.

MR MTHEMBU: Still on that issue I would refer you to your application form, page 6 paragraph 11B.  You have stated therein that
"As the Secretary General I had an absolute power to conduct such operation and I briefed my executive committee.  Therefore a Mr Koloane J, Chairperson and Mr Kort Mbiga, deputy Chairperson".

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you tell me, you say it's paragraph 11 on page 6?

MR MTHEMBU: Paragraph 11 Mr Chairman and page 6, just above paragraph 12.  I think paragraph 11 starts on page 5 but the rest of the portion of 11B continues on page 6 of the application and page 6 of the bundle as well.

CHAIRPERSON: You are reading from the application as far as page 6 is concerned?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is paragraph 11B?

MR MTHEMBU: Correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Please put your question.

MR MTHEMBU: Now Mr Mohapi if you were on the brink, on the verge of defecting why was it necessary for you to contact your chairperson and your deputy-chairperson?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Mr Mthembu and Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Don't address Mr Mthembu, you must address the Chairman and members of the Committee.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Thank you Mr Chairman, sorry for that.  Mr Chairman that depended that when I said I met Mr Mbiga and Mr Gwalale what did I say to them when I said I briefed them, it depends as whether maybe you understand that as to say Comrades I am going to defect from the African National Congress or ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mohapi I am going to interrupt you because you are not responding to what your counsel has put to you.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why was it necessary for you to contact Mr Gwalale and Mr Mbiga?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay it was necessary to contact Mr Mbiga and Mr Gwalale because sometimes I worked with them in the executive committee of the ANC.

MR MTHEMBU: Now is it further correct Sir that you were present at a meeting that was attended by Mr Mdluli, yourself and Mr Mtjikelo?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MTHEMBU: Would you tell the Committee what transpired at that meeting?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Could you be more explicit Sir.

MR MTHEMBU: Would you please tell this Committee what actually took place at that meeting Sir?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: What I may tell this Committee today is that we were at home, it was myself, Tapelo Mohapi, Mr Abel Khotle, Mr Paulus Mtjikelo and Mr Mose Ndluli.  What I would tell this Commission is that for those people to be present at home it came this way.  At home I was staying with my other sister or brother, we were staying at a four-roomed house.  I regarded them as my comrades and to tell the truth is that Mr Mdluli I didn't know him before, it was for the first time I saw him on that particular day.  The person I knew was Mr Mtjikelo who is the commander of the task force unit and Mr Abel Khotle, we knew each other at school because I was with him at school at a particular time, I know shortly that about that meeting which was held at my place.

CHAIRPERSON: You have uttered a lot of words.

MR MTHEMBU: My question is, Mr Mohapi, would you tell the Committee what took place at that meeting Sir, because you attended that meeting, you were present?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: What I may tell this Committee is that as we were four what I heard being discussed, of which I was part of that meeting was in regard to the struggle. As in that year, 1993, was declared as the Year of the Great Storm, that is to say it was upon the comrades on that time that they should see to it that the struggle continues and in which way.
	And the other thing which I may tell the Commission is that Mr Mdluli said to us you should continue with the struggle on condition that your targets, it will be upon you to choose which target you may attack and when and who should do the job.  And then it would only depend, the decision about the targets and the times would depend on the unit commander.  The operations were intended to disarm and secondly to fund-raise, to kill even if there is a necessity to do so.  ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that again, to kill what?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: To kill because we were fighting and could take whatever valuable in the promotion of the struggle of the African people.
	So shortly I would say ...(intervention)

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Mohapi before you proceed Sir, it has been brought to my attention that you are making the task of the translators difficult by switching from one language to the other.  Either you address the Committee in English or you address the Committee in seSotho, what do you elect to do?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Mr Chairman I have a problem because I am used that when I speak, I am used to speak this way.  I would request that be patient with me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You see Mr Mohapi it's not a question of not being patient with you, we have records of what you are saying and the translator's have to translate so you either elect to choose a particular language for purposes of transcribing this record, because otherwise it really gets mixed up.  So it's not a question of not being patient with you.  I know it's difficult to stick to a particular language like Sotho all the time, but if you would like to address us in English you can do so.  Or if you want to use seSotho you can do so and use English quite sparingly to make the task of the translators and the transcribers much easier.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Try and avoid using another language just speak in one language if you can.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay.  Shortly I would use my language which is seSotho.  I request Mr Mthembu to repeat your question, what did you say?

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked what were the discussion and you mentioned, one, two, three, four items being the points that were discussed.