Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Comrade Mapumole.  The second one, there is one comrade who is in jail at the moment, I don't know whether he has applied for amnesty or whatever, but I know for a fact that that comrade actually worked with us in handling material.
	Whether he was later on involved in operations down the line, I don't know, but in handling materials, I know for a fact, I have dealt with him.

MR WILLS: And you would give this comrade's name to the Committee.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Shonge.

MR WILLS: You don't have to give the name here, but you would be prepared to give the name to the Committee in private.  The reason why you don't want to give the name is because of advise from me that he hasn't, we are not sure if he has been advised.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is right.

MR WILLS: And then there were other comrades?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Another one was Gumedi from Z in Umlazi.  I knew him as Gumedi and I know for a fact that he was involved in carrying out some of the operations.
	Another one, comrade Nduli for instance was also responsible for most of the areas in the north, Inanda, going up towards the border lines of Southern Natal, he was also involved with that.

MR WILLS: Would these persons receive weapons from you and would they distribute them further on?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, they would receive them from me, and they are also responsible for all the other activities below them, that is making the point that if most of the people were old people, were not really responsible for operations.
	Some were down the line because they were in constant contact with communities that were actually involved in these operations, in acts of defence.
	They were the ones who were (indistinct) to the comrades down below.  One of the comrades that I have forgotten to mention was like an overall in terms of assisting the other comrades as well, was comrade Chief, we used to call him Chief Sithole, but his real name, I learned afterwards, after he was killed mysteriously in 1993, that he was Nkosinathi Mkwanyani.
	The day that I learned about his name, was the day when we went to bury him.

MR WILLS: Both Mr Radebe and Dr Phillips have indicated that your operations were conducted on a need to know basis?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Are we to assume by that that you would know the persons who were immediately above you, like for example in this instance, in the first instance where you distributed weapons, it was Mr Radebe and then later on, Mr Phillips?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Comrade Phillips, yes.

MR WILLS: And then you would know the identities of the persons immediately below you?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR WILLS: But would you know the identities of those persons further down the chain?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: I wouldn't, but as a Commander, I would say sometimes you suspect, but you can't even say or can't actually betray yourself to those comrades, even if you suspect that they might be involved.  You don't even have to question them, so in that respect some I suspected in certain instances, so and so we hear that people are talking that he might be involved in a Self Defence Unit somewhere down the line.
	But I have no evidence to say yes, he was.

MR WILLS: Yes, just before we get off the procurement of arms, are you in a position to estimate the amounts, the quantities of various types of armourments that came through you directly in the period?  The period that we are referring to is obviously the period from 1991 to the elections in 1994?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Possible amount of weaponry, my career has changed.

MR WILLS: You are now in construction, I believe.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Possible the amount is possibly 150, 100 - 150 weapons which was very little by the demand that we were getting from the communities.  In fact, we would run dry most of the time, so we were not in a position to actually effectively organise our own communities in terms of self defence.

MR WILLS: And hand grenades?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Grenades, in a consignment sometimes 10, 20, not much. About 10, 20, came in packages of about five in each, so two packages sometimes.
	Most of the weaponry that we needed, was AK's with ammunition which was taking a lot of space in the cars, so in addition, just in case, then they will give you grenades and we didn't like the use mostly of grenades, because of the danger that if a person doesn't handle it properly, it can actually explode in our faces.

MR WILLS: What about the pistols, you mentioned Stechin machine pistols, and the macarov?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Pistols, yes we had a couple of Stechin's, I don't think there were more than 20 Stechin's (indistinct).
	Pistols, small ones, macarov, not more than ten, which was meant really for people who were in command to be able to have in case they were walking around at night.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now, Dr Phillips has indicated that the way the procurement worked, was both you would get weapons sent in from above if I can use that phrase, from military Headquarters, but you also made requests for weapons to come to certain communities.
	Were you involved in that process at all?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, from the reports that I get from my own command, then they will say to me that we've got a problem in such and such an area.  I personally wanted to go and verify it on my own so that in case even there are certain things that our own comrades do down there, we must be held accountable for their operations.
	Most of the time, when reports come in, I personally used to go into an area and see really, if it was necessary for us to be putting arms into that area.

MR WILLS: And then, if you decided it was necessary, how would you ...

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Then I would get the stuff, get it down to the Commander who reported the incident, give him the consignment.

MR WILLS: How would you get the armourments from military Headquarters, who would you speak to?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Of course in military Headquarters, I never go directly to military Headquarters.  I am talking about the material that we have already in the DLB's, which we have stored, then it is a matter of taking from the DLB's that we have established now and then distribute it amongst those comrades that were supposed to be handling it.

MR WILLS: But if you wanted to get something from military Headquarters, who would you go through?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: I will go through Ian  Phillips in terms of communication.

MR WILLS: So you wouldn't communicate with military Headquarters directly, yourself?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: No.

MR WILLS: You were also responsible for the training of the SDU members, is that correct?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And related to that training was the MK persons who were attached to SDU's, is that correct?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is correct yes.

MR WILLS: Before we get into the training, how would you select of how would it arise that an MK person would be attached to a particular SDU?  Tell me how that process worked?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Right from the beginning, we never saw MK trained MK, what I will call revolutionary advanced units of MK, directly participating in acts of defence ourselves.
	We saw revolutionary armed people in their own communities, developing a capacity to defend themselves.  Whatever role our own comrades discipline, even among our own, trained must be disciplined comrades who must be dispatched into those areas so that they must be in a position of controlling things.
	I know for a fact, if you are giving people arms, they can actually turn those arms against you, what do you do at any stage?  So we couldn't take the risk of ensuring that there was ill-discipline in those Units, where our own comrades were participating, in terms of developing those structures in community defence.

MR WILLS: How would you approach that problem?