Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

WINILE VEVEZA: I had one bayonet and I was sure that I was going to take the firearms even though I was armed with one bayonet.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, isn't it that you were not able to access any firearms from the leadership of the PAC and that's why you were not able to request it and that's why you didn't have a firearm?  The simple reason is that you were not acting in the name of the PAC?

WINILE VEVEZA: Please repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't the reason why you were not in possession of a firearm on this escapade of yours, because you had no right to access firearms because you were not on a PAC mission?

WINILE VEVEZA: If I wanted a firearm I would have been given a firearm from the PAC but because Mabuti ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, why didn't you ask for one?

WINILE VEVEZA: There was nothing that I was going to do with a firearm, why was I supposed to ask for a
firearm?

CHAIRPERSON: Part of your policy, you say, is to kill white people, not so?  Secondly, you were going to rob a white person of his firearms, did you think he was just going to give it to you?  How were you going to comply with that policy?

WINILE VEVEZA: The policy of the PAC does not say that we should be armed when we were going on a mission to take the firearms from white people but we were there to get the firearms or to even kill that white person.  The fact that I was supposed to have a firearm with me, I didn't even think about that because I knew that I would get a firearm from PAC when my commanders came straight to me and gave me an order to do something.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?

WINILE VEVEZA: Thank you, Chairperson.  So who was your commander?

WINILE VEVEZA: My commander was Mabuti Biko, the one who was with me, because I would get everything from him.

MR MAPOMA: But weren't you saying that had your commander told you that you were going for an operation you would have asked for a gun from him?  Haven't you just said that?

WINILE VEVEZA: I thought that you were asking about this specific operation.  My commander was Tamsanqa Duma.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were under the command of Mabuti, isn't it?

WINILE VEVEZA: At that time.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you ask him for a firearm?

WINILE VEVEZA: There was nothing I was going to do with a firearm and Duma didn't tell me anything that needed a firearm, so I couldn't ask for the firearm from Mabuti.

MR MAPOMA: So when you went with Mabuti, you were not aware that you were going for an APLA task force operation, is that so?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Until you arrived at Franciscato's place?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Is it only then that you were instructed or you were advised that you are - in fact, were you advised at all that this is an APLA operation?

WINILE VEVEZA: Please repeat your question.

MR MAPOMA: When at Mr Franciscato's place, were you ever advised at all that this was an APLA operation or did you just understand it to be like that?

WINILE VEVEZA: Mabuti Biko, when we were at the gate, he told me that we were going inside that house to attack and to find firearms, so we had to find firearms and take them with us.  I did what he told me to do.

MR MAPOMA: And you didn't know what you were going to do with the firearms?

WINILE VEVEZA: I knew because he told me that they were needed by an organisation, the PAC.

MR MAPOMA: When did he tell you that?

WINILE VEVEZA: He told me when we were at the gate by Franciscato's house, when he was telling me that we should go inside the house.

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you that you have to kill Mr Franciscato?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, he told me that we should attack him.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] that he was going to be killed, not attacked.

WINILE VEVEZA: He told me that we should hit him.  He didn't tell me that we were to kill him.  I heard that from him when he was already killed.

MR MAPOMA: What did you hear from him when he was already killed?  What is it that you heard from him?

WINILE VEVEZA: I heard a gunshot when I was in another room because he left the room that we were searching.  He went to another room.  Franciscato was with him.  I then heard a gunshot.
	I went from the room that we were in, I went to that room and I saw Franciscato on the ground and there was blood all over, even on the mirrors.  I then asked what happened and he said he shot him.  He told us to be careful of our fingerprints because if the police went there they would find our fingerprints, so we should be careful.

ADV DE JAGER: Who opened the trunk?

WINILE VEVEZA: Mabuti Biko was the one who opened the trunk because he was the first to be inside there, to be there.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he open it with his hands?

WINILE VEVEZA: When I got in there the trunk was already opened because when I got in there he was taking out firearms from the trunk, so it was already opened.

ADV DE JAGER: And what about his fingerprints on the trunk?

WINILE VEVEZA: That was wooden-made so the fingerprints would not be found in that trunk.  He told us to be careful about iron, to be careful about touching glass or iron things.  In the wooden-made things they would not find fingerprints.

ADV DE JAGER: Fine.  Before you entered the house, did you know how many people were staying there?

WINILE VEVEZA: He was the one who knew the people who were staying there.

ADV DE JAGER: So when you accompanied him to this house he didn't tell you it was an operation of APLA, you only learnt that when you arrived at the house?

WINILE VEVEZA: We heard when we arrived in Franciscato's house, that the firearms we were looking for were needed by the PAC.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you hear it, after you went into the house or where?

WINILE VEVEZA: Before we went inside the house.  When we were at the gate he told me because we didn't know that we were going inside that house.

ADV DE JAGER: So Mr Duma didn't give you any order to act on behalf of APLA or on behalf of the PAC?

WINILE VEVEZA: What happened is he sent someone to call me from home.  He then said he would find me in Zukile Biko's place.  When I arrived in Zukile Biko's place Mzuamadoda Yengeni and Mogeti were there.  We waited for him, for Tamsanqa Duma because that was not his house.

ADV DE JAGER: Now he's the commander and you said, in your application you said you were instructed, in your affidavit, you were instructed by Mr Duma to carry out this operation but when did he instruct you to do so?

WINILE VEVEZA: Mr Duma didn't give me an instruction, he gave it to Mabuti Biko.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, yes.  Sorry, I've got the wrong affidavit before me.  So you didn't know that he instructed you to carry the operation?  You didn't even know that you were going on an operation until you've been at the house, you arrived at the house?

WINILE VEVEZA: I knew when we arrived at that house that we were there for an operation.  I didn't know before we got there.

ADV DE JAGER: No in your original application you said Mabuti Biko, George Mkweti and Yengeni were involved.  Why did you mention Mkweti or Mkweri to be involved?  He had nothing to do with this operation or was he involved?

WINILE VEVEZA: It is because he was called, he was there, but Mabuti told him to go back.  So that is where I made a mistake because Mabuti Biko called him aside so he didn't come with us to the operation.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you mention his name as being one of the persons going on this operation?  How could you make such a mistake?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I think I have to be clear because here in "Nature and particulars",, although the application is related to this offence, it does not necessarily mean that he says that they went together in this operation.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he go with you on another operation, when you robbed the cafe that afternoon?