Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to say that the panel is not overjoyed by the unnecessary delay.  It's not going to be tolerated from now on and we will start as arranged at nine o'clock every morning.  Mr Black, will you call your witness please?

MR BLACK: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.  As explained to you in Chambers, one of the principal reasons for the delay is that we intended to consult at seven o'clock this morning with Mr Hlongwane.  We were here and my attorney did go to the prison at ten past seven to enquire what was happening.  I won't go into detail.

CHAIRPERSON: We're quite aware of it.  You're extending the delay.  Call your witness please.

MR BLACK: So, that's my way of explanation as far as Mr Hlongwane is concerned, we had every intention of calling him as a witness.  But after due consideration and in view of the fact that he will be testifying on another occasion, and the community and those present here will hear his evidence possibly at that occasion, we've decided not to call him but to proceed with the applicants and in the order as listed in Volume one (1) of the documents.  The first applicant whom I represent is Mr Mzwandile Gushu.  He is present and he will be testifying in Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you Mzwandile Gushu?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (No English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Which language would you prefer to use while testifying?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Interpreter, can he hear you?  Mr Gushu, are you happy with that?  Have you got any objections of the taking of the oath?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Objections of what?

CHAIRPERSON: Taking the oath?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, I've got no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, are you receiving the interpretation into Xhosa?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Take that thing in front in your hand.  You'll see those numbers there.  Turn the left-hand knob to number four.  Number four is Xhosa.  Is that thing on number four?  Is that okay?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I can hear now.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any objections to the taking of the oath?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (No English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (Sworn States)

CHAIRPERSON: You can sit.  Yes, Mr Black.

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  What I propose, with the leave of the Committee, doing is referring to Mr Gushu's statement which commences on page twenty six (26), Volume one (1), but the relevant section really starts on page twenty seven (27).

CHAIRPERSON: This statement, does it go to page thirty nine (39)?

MR BLACK: The typed statement, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... only of the typed statement, Mr Black.

MR BLACK: Because the actual application commences on page twenty three (23).

CHAIRPERSON: What's this typed statement intended to be?  A sworn statement or what?

MR BLACK: No, at the time this was submitted, Mr Chairman, it was prefaced, as you would note, that it was for the previous hearing and there were certain time constraints that we have to get the statements to the TRC.  At that stage this was really just a supplementary type of statement elaborating more on his formal application.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen to my question.  Was this typed document intended to be a sworn statement or not?

MR BLACK: Not at that stage, but we submitted it.  We didn't have an opportunity to get to the prison to have it signed.  And Mr Gushu will confirm the contents of this statement under oath.  The principal intention was to assist the TRC at the time and to name people who may or may not be implicated and so the notifications could be done timeously.  This was done shortly before the previous hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the date?

MR BLACK: The date, the exact date at the moment I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: How many weeks ago, how many days ago, how months ago?

MR BLACK: No, several months ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Signed now?

MR BLACK: He's prepared to sign it.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... several months has gone by, why was there no attempt to have it signed then?

MR BLACK: I think at the time, I don't know, my attorneys had these documents, but he has consulted with the witnesses and the applicants and I can just assume that he thought that the evidence would be testified under oath and this document was really going to be a document for supplementary purposes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Black, I'm going to have to discuss this issue with my colleagues here, but there are certain rules and regulations and practices that are involved over the past few months pertaining to such applications, one of which was or is that these statements should be signed and attested.  But you proceed, we'll see how far we get on it.  I must say, I'm not impressed with the lack of compliance with the rules.

MS BOSMAN: Mr Black, may I just ask.  Has your client had the time to familiarise himself with the content of it at all?

MR BLACK: Oh yes.  On the previous occasion this was drawn up and he was prepared to testify and he has subsequent to that had access to it and he's subsequently read it and confirms the contents.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

MR BLACK: Thank you.  In order to speed it up, then the evidence will be, which I will put to Mr Gushu, will be of a leading nature subject to any objections which may arise.  Mr Gushu, I'll refer you to page twenty seven (27) of the document in front of you and section B in particular.  If you could just give the Committee a brief history of your background and your involvement and how it came to be that you became involved in the political and liberation movements of the country.

MR SANDI: Ja, but sorry, Mr Black, I think you will have to lead the witness.  I mean that's very broad if you say he must tell us the whole history.  Why don't you lead him from this document and highlight those points which are important on the document?

MR BLACK: I'll do so.  I've explained to him and it will be of a similar nature to the evidence given yesterday by the first witness.  Mr Gushu, I'll just refer you to page twenty seven (27) again.  Is it correct that you were born in January 1964 at the Goshen Mission Station?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That's correct, sir.

MR BLACK: You mention here that you were informed by your great-grandfather, land around Goshen Mission was given to them by the Queen of England as a reward for fighting on the side of England during World War I, and you were later further informed that the missionaries arrived at Goshen in order to establish a mission and were given a piece of land for the purpose of building, and as the years elapsed the missionaries acquired more and more of the land.  Was this a ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's not what the statement says.  The statement says "fence", they didn't acquire it.

MR BLACK: Okay, I'll read it.
"Missionaries fenced the whole of the Goshen area and declared it a trust land.  They purported to act as trustees that finally became the owners of the land.  I was told that our people were forced ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, is that true?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That's correct.

MR BLACK: I'll continue dealing with the whole land issue.
"I was told that the people were forced to surrender their title deeds to the missionaries and who were then thereby allocated land to certain white farmers."
Is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That's correct.  When I grew up we had a lot of camps where the cattle were grazing.  After some time a Commissioner from Cathcart came and asked for title deeds and those title deeds were given them.

MR BLACK: And then it goes on to say
"During the 1970s the Nationalist Party Government wanted to remove us forcibly out of the Goshen Mission area."
Were you there at that time?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I was there.

MR BLACK: And was this a major issue amongst the community, the land question?