Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR MASUPA: They were workers at the shop, and there were two security guards and they only worked at night.  Nobody else supplied security.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you ever brought before the people's court?

MR MASUPA: I was surprised to hear that I was taken to a people's court, I do not know such a court.  I did not even remember its existence.

JUDGE WILSON: So you were never before one?

MR MASUPA: No Sir, I was never taken before the people's court.

MR BLACK: Were you ever disciplined by the comrades?

MR MASUPA: I was never punished at all.  I knew comrades and they knew me and even today they will tell you I never have trouble with anyone.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now the impression which Mr Ndlovu tried to create is that you were against the community, you and your family were against the community.  And one of the allegations he has made is that he tries to say that during consumer boycotts when delivery trucks came to the shopping complex to deliver goods, you and your gang as he calls it, had problems with the comrades who wanted to prevent the deliveries.  Now just before you start, listen to what I am saying, that is the evidence which he gave in summary.
	Now, during a consumer boycott what happened to delivery trucks?

MR MASUPA: I want to tell the truth now.  I didn't have any authority, sometimes I would be walking in the street or I am at school and there will be disruptions.  You know when I come across a group of people taking some food from a delivery van, I would just take something also.  I didn't have anything - how would I be against the comrades, how would I be against the consumer boycott because I was also a comrade.
	When a truck was burning, I would also take a loaf of bread and pass by.  I didn't have a gang.  The trucks couldn't get into the township any more, they parked at the police station and various businessmen will drive to the police station to collect the foodstuff. 
	I was part of the comrade, how would I be against the consumer boycott?

MR BLACK: Now will you listen to my question again, which I am putting to you?  It was alleged that when the trucks came to deliver goods at that shopping complex where you worked, your grandfather's shopping complex, you had a gang that made sure that the comrades would not disturb the delivery of the goods, is that the case or is it not the case?

MR MASUPA: That is not the case.  That is not the case.  How would the vans, the delivery vans come to the township because they were stoned and burnt?

MR BLACK: Yes, don't ask the questions.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, I think he's answered the question.  He said he didn't have a gang assisting or deliveries or operating at the shop.

MR BLACK: Now, you were the name, now we will come back to this business of you being associated with gangsters, okay.  And listen again please to the question.  It was put and you
were present at the time when Mr Ndlovu was testifying, I put it to him that the comrades actually helped hunt him down, not him down, but hunt down the people who had burnt the house, do you remember me putting that to him?  Do you remember me putting that to him?

MR MASUPA: I remember.

MR BLACK: And when it was put to him about Elias Ratone being brought to your house, he went off and he gave a long
story and amongst others he said some of the comrades were corrupt and he said some of the comrades would be helped by a gangster who stayed at the shopping complex.  Do you remember that?  Do you remember him saying that?

MR MASUPA: Yes.  I remember.

MR BLACK: Okay, and he then goes further and he said in response to a question give names of the gangsters and he mention, he said a gangster by the name of Bambo Splash, was helping you.  Do you remember that?

MR MASUPA: I remember him saying that.

MR BLACK: Now can you please just comment on this aspect?  Can you just tell us who is this Bambo Splash and was it true or was it not true or what?

MR MASUPA: Let me explain this.  Bambo Splash was a gang that used to buy at the shop.  At that time of the incident, we were, I think we were very small when the gangsters erupted.  It was a group belonging to a certain section of the township, fighting a certain part of the township.  This is a long tradition.
	When the shop was burnt, I think members of that gang were already ten years in jail, they are much older than us.  I mean he is surprising to come and refer to Bambo Splash, a very old gang and it was just a talk around the township
that be careful, you will meet the Bambo Splash gang at the shop.

MR BLACK: Yes, now, let's just, I don't know if there was a mix up in the translation.  At the time of the burning, did you say, of the house or the shop, these people had already been in prison for over ten years?

MR MASUPA: That is when the house was burnt.  These people had been in jail for ten years.  I wanted to explain
that these people were long in jail.  They did not, they were not involved at all at the time of the incident.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Masupa, was Bambo Splash in existence in 1987?  Were they in existence as a gang in 1987?

MR MASUPA: It existed in the 1970's.

JUDGE WILSON: Please try to answer the questions.  You've gone invariably gone off at a tangent, the question simply was did they exist in 1987?

MR MASUPA: No, they did not exist.

MR BLACK: Some of the other allegations that were made against  you by Mr Ndlovu was that your people at the shop used to disarm people and then give arms, firearms to gangsters.  Did anything like that happen while you were working at the shopping complex?

MR MASUPA: Let me explain this this way.  There were security guards, two of them at the gate and they were searching you, you wouldn't get inside with a gun.  They just searched you and when you had a weapon on you, they would return you.  They were at the door to search people not to come in with weapons.

MR BLACK: So is your answer then that you did not disarm people and take the weapons and give them, the firearms to other people?  You did not take the weapons from these
people, you just prevented people from entering the sjibeen or the shopping complex?

MR MASUPA: That is correct.  The two people were hired to stop the people from entering the shebeen with guns.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you now say the shebeen, are we now talking about the shebeen and not the shop?

MR MASUPA: Sir, the ground floor was the shop and the first floor was the shebeen.  Maybe he is mixing the issues
that there were security at the shop, I do not understand.  Maybe he mixed up issues here.  You will never get into a shop and be searched, you get into a shop to buy food, you don't get security at a shop.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Masupa, were there two security guards posted at the entrance of the tavern?

MR MASUPA: Yes, we didn't have security at the shop we had the security at the shebeen.

MR BLACK: But the point is, listen Mr Masupa, will you listen to this please, these security people, did they take, remove the firearm from these people who had guns and then give them to other people?  Did that happen or were the people who ...

ADV DE JAGER: Did they return the weapons after the people left the shebeen, did they give them back their weapons or did they keep it and give it to somebody different?

MR MASUPA: When you were armed, you were not allowed to get in.  You were just not allowed to get in.

JUDGE WILSON: So they didn't take the weapons away from people?

MR MASUPA: Not at all Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Black, how much longer are you going to be?

MR BLACK: Not much longer.

JUDGE WILSON: Because I understood there was an agreement with Mr Currin that he was not available after the morning session?