Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

MR BANADE: Mr Chairman that is his evidence in chief.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink are there any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Erasmus have you got a copy of Mr Harrington's statement before you, the one which he read to the Committee this morning?

ANSWER: Yes there is one lying here I can probably just look at it.
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<UNKNOWN>: As I understand your evidence, when you were at the bottle store you found yourself sitting, as you say, with an enemy, a communist and suddenly the indoctrination which you had endured caused you to have some sort of inner explosion.

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you discuss that with Mr Harrington that inner explosion and the fact that you had an enemy and a communist in your midst?

ANSWER: No at that time I just felt that way and I suggested that we, I just suggested that we kill Mr Jama, I did not discuss my feelings with him.

<UNKNOWN>: ...bottle store, you were sitting there and you had this inner explosion, you remembered that Major Terblanche had been murdered and you became very angry so then you thought this man, the deceased, must go.   Is that basically it?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Those thoughts were never discussed with Mr Harrington?

ANSWER: No it was not discussed with any of them, I merely made the suggestion that Jama should be killed and they all agreed as the rest of the group.

<UNKNOWN>: ...read Mr Harrington's mind, nor he yours.

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Now if you have a look at page 9 of Mr Harrington's statement, the one he read out this morning, at the heading "bottle store", a side heading "bottle store", you see he also says
"Here we sit with an enemy in our midst, also a self-confessed communist and the indoctrination
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against the ANC had caused a sudden internal explosion."
He thought about Major Terblanche who had been murdered and so on, is it not quite extraordinary that both of you should have identical thoughts without discussing the matter?

ANSWER: That might be so but as far as I know we did not discuss it with each other.

<UNKNOWN>: ..exactly the same thoughts?

ANSWER: I cannot understand it either.

<UNKNOWN>: When did you first come to hear about this pocketbook?   You see in your statement at page 3 at the bottom you say
"Constable Harrington informed me about the pocketbook, the contents thereof and that they had thrown that book out of the window."
When did you first come to hear about that, was it at that stage?

ANSWER: Yes sir it was at the stage when we stopped at the bottle store when Mr Jama tried to grab the shotgun and that was when I first heard about the pocketbook.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you ever see the pocketbook yourself?

ANSWER: No sir I never saw the pocketbook.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you ask Mr Harrington what the contents of it were or did he tell you?

ANSWER: He informed me what the content of it was, when he spoke about the pocketbook, when he told me about the pocketbook he also told me what the content was.

<UNKNOWN>: Weren't you particularly interested to see that document?

ANSWER: At that time I would have liked to have seen the pocketbook but he informed me that they threw it out.
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<UNKNOWN>: Did you suggest going back to look for it, it wouldn't have been difficult to find it's the size of a bankbook I understand.

ANSWER: No I never made that suggestion.

<UNKNOWN>: ...if what Mr Harrington said the contents contained is true, was vitally important?

ANSWER: That is correct sir.

<UNKNOWN>: Why didn't you then, even if you were going to kill the deceased, why didn't you ensure the pocketbook be recovered so if any questions were asked you'd say well this is what we found on this man, he's a terrorist.

ANSWER: At that time I did not think of anything like that.   The information which Harrington gave to me I believed because he was the senior member and to tell the truth I did not think about going back to find the pocketbook or starting to look for it where they said they threw it away.

<UNKNOWN>: If you had found say a toy gun on the deceased, would you have agreed that that should be thrown away or a defective firearm, would you agree that that should be just left in the bushes or on the road?

ANSWER: I don't think I would have agreed that it should have been thrown away, it depends, but since he was my senior he had the highest authority at that stage.

<UNKNOWN>: ...endeavouring to make is this.   Here you have a pocketbook containing apparently a confession made by the deceased of terrorist activities, that's according to the evidence.   You then plan to kill the man, which you do.   You must have realised there might have been an investigation into this once the body had been found.   You must have realised that you would have been investigated.
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Wouldn't it have helped your case in that police sub-culture to say to your superiors yes we killed him, this is what we found on him, this book containing a history of terror attacks and murders or whatever? (end side A)

ANSWER: ...we had the pocketbook but at that point we did not have the pocketbook and I did not think about finding it at the time.

<UNKNOWN>: ...conducted the search on Mr Jama, who actually conducted the search?

ANSWER: I do not understand the question.

<UNKNOWN>: These 10 people that you came across, more or less 10, were to have been searched, it was only Mr Jama who didn't want to be searched, is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Who carried out the physical search of Mr Jama?

ANSWER: I wanted to search him at the beginning but he refused to let me and I then slapped him.   Some of the special constables then held him and the others searched him.   I did not participate any further in searching him.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you watch them search him?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: How was Mr Jama dressed can you remember?

ANSWER: As far as I can remember he had on trousers, a long pair or pants with an ANC T-shirt.

<UNKNOWN>: The T-shirt didn't have pockets presumably?

ANSWER: As far as I can remember, no.

<UNKNOWN>: If there had been a search and this book, as there was you said there was a search, and this book had been found, surely you would have seen that and been interested?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.
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<UNKNOWN>: Can you explain how it came about that the special constables were searching him, you saw them search him and yet you didn't see the pocketbook?

ANSWER: When I stopped at the bottle store and was informed about the pocketbook, it was strange to me that when they searched him where we encountered him, that they did not find it but I did not ask where the pocketbook was found or anything like that because nothing was found on him when he was taken away from there.

<UNKNOWN>: When you spoke to Mr Jama or when Mr Harrington spoke to him did you use English, Zulu or a mixture of both?

ANSWER: We used all these languages, I myself was not a Zulu or English-speaking person, I grew up as an Afrikaans-speaking person and as far as I can remember we used English and Afrikaans and probably a bit of Zulu here and there but not too much.   He merely informed me that they were going to take Mr Jama away and that I should start the vehicle and that we should leave.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you at any stage hear Jama say that the police, presumably your group, need to be killed?

ANSWER: Not as far as I can remember, I cannot remember him having said something like that because when he was being searched I did not stand too close to them.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you hear Mr Madlala tell Mr Harrington what had apparently been said by Mr Jama relating to the killing of police?

ANSWER: No I did not hear any such thing.