Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is not what prompted me to go outside.  What prompted me to go outside is the people who came to me for help, either to give them the rifle or to go with them.  That is when I decided to go and help the nation because as a policeman I swore to fight and die for the nation.  That is why I went outside.  I did not say that the bullet is the one that prompted me to go outside.
	I said that this bullet was fired and I hid behind a wall until these people arrived and these are the very same people I swore to defend when I joined the police force in 1994, 1991.

ADV MOTATA: Now when you spotted the Mercedes shooting, on your way towards the Mercedes did you see dead people?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not see any dead people.

ADV MOTATA: Now the question which you have been asked and not answered is that when you wrote this statement which was presented to the Tebbutt Commission, did you know after the event that actually 40 people had died during that upheaval?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I'll explain that I knew before eliminating these men.

ADV MOTATA: Whereabout did you see people who lay dead on the 11th of March 1994?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not see them but my colleagues who were present here in Mmbatho and who were constantly coming to head office before this incident of the three men, they kept us informed as to all the events in Mmbatho.  I was informed by my colleagues.

ADV MOTATA: And you mentioned that already 40 people are dead?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: They could not confirm the numbers but what they said is that those people might have been more or less but most people have already died in Bophuthatswana.

ADV MOTATA: Now on the 8th of May 1997 when you presented your statement to the Tebbutt Commission, had you confirmed that it was actually 40 people that had died and several injured?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not go to confirm as to how many, find out as to how many people got injured or not.

ADV MOTATA: Could we understand you, that as you sit there today you don't know the number of people who died?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That's correct Sir, I don't know.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Mr van der Berg.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it please you Mr Chairperson.
	You also did not mention it to the Committee in your evidence, why not?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: What are you talking about Sir?

MR VAN DER BERG: These 40 people, you did not mention this in your evidence in chief, why not?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I cannot recall everything that I've written ages ago.  Myself, I cannot recall everything to the detail.  You might not be like that but personally I'm like that, I forget things.  I cannot recall everything to the detail.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, would you page to page 9 of the bundle?  I refer here specifically to the last paragraph, paragraph 6 and I will read it to you
"I had witnessed the shooting and injury of one member of the public, with a great number of people fleeing around, apparently injured and saw one person shot and apparently critically injured".
This information does not follow the other information, that you did not see 40 people, that you only mentioned one person.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Berg, the witness did state that he saw a man being shot in the thigh and he also saw a woman that had been shot in what he said was the belly.  So that is the one member of the public, shooting and the injury of one member and another one apparently critically injured.  One would relate it to those two that he's described.  He said that.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it pleases you, Chairperson.  If you could just give me one moment please.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any further questions, Mr van der Berg.

MR VAN DER BERG: Mr Chairperson, I would just like to make sure that I've covered all the aspects.

CHAIRPERSON: Well don't read the whole record now.

MR VAN DER BERG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Berg.
	Mr Mpshe, do you have questions to ask the witness?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Menyatsoe, I want you to have a look at your application form which you submitted, which you signed on the 8th of May 1997.  I want you to proceed straight to page 5 of the paginated pages, paragraph 11(a).  I'll read it for convenience:
"Were there omissions or offences committed in the execution of, or on behalf of, or with the approval, the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement:  state department or security force concerned."
And your answer was: "yes".  Do you see that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: Now who approved this act?  Which party, liberation movement or body or institution?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, I don't know if this is a fair question really.  I mean it's not a question, it doesn't hang on approval because the question says
"Was the act or omission committed in the execution of an order, or on behalf of, or with the approval of the organisation".
So it might just have been done on behalf of rather than with the approval of, but I get the gist of your question but it shouldn't be confined to the approval aspect.

UNKNOWN: I'm indebted to you, Mr Chairman.  I will split it, right.
	Let's go to the first part thereof, was this an act committed as an execution or as an order of any particular movement?

CHAIRPERSON: Movement, body or institution.

UNKNOWN: Was it an order of any body, liberation movement or institution?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I said to kill these three people - do you talk about the killing of the three people, or maybe I don't understand?

UNKNOWN: Alright.  When you did this, was it because you were responding to an order of any movement or institution?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did that on my own and to protect the community.

UNKNOWN: Now were you doing this - did you do this on behalf of any institution or liberation or organisation?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, that is ANC.

UNKNOWN: You indicated that you were a supporter of the ANC.  Other than what you did on this particular day, what else did you do in the past to show that you are a supporter of the ANC?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: You mean after this incident or do you mean before this incident?

UNKNOWN: Before.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I've explained that it was not difficult to show my political alliance with the ANC because I was working for the Bophuthatswana Government, which was antagonistic to ANC.  Because if you are a member of the Bophuthatswana Police, you are not allowed to be a member or a supporter of any political organisation other that the United Democratic.  I was supporting the ANC on my own.

UNKNOWN: Will I be correct to say that this particular act on this day was the first physical act on your part to show that you are an ANC supporter?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, that was the first one.

UNKNOWN: Did you know by then what ANC stood for?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was supporting the ANC not knowing the policy.

UNKNOWN: Just a blind supporter?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was not in the dark but I was supporting the ANC because I liked the ANC.  Like if I can support the Kaizer Chiefs or Parrots, I don't know their policies.

UNKNOWN: What actually were you supporting in the ANC?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was supporting ANC as it stands or as it stood at that time.  As I used to watch the news on TV, those who were the people who wanted to negotiate a political settlement.

UNKNOWN: You supported them because they liked to sit and talk?  Were you supporting the talking part of it?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That would be difficult to respond to because I don't know I can respond to that question.