Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairman, I don't have knowledge and I am 
not an expert, but on the typewriter I could see that there was a 
similarity between certain letters, certain typed letters and so I 
could draw the inference that it was coming from the same 
typewriter.

ADV BOOYENS: If we can just discuss the contents of these 
letters quickly.  These letters was written in a kind of a code 
language?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Definitely yes.

ADV BOOYENS: A person, an uninformed person could draw no 
inference from this letters, it read like a friendly letter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did the Security Branch know that certain words 
used in certain letters had a certain meaning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Could you mention a few examples?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Amongst others there is a funeral, it would 
appear in the letter.  You must attend a wedding on such and such a 
day.

ADV BOOYENS: Let us use the wedding example.  What did that 
mean?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That means that people would be sent into, 
people would be sent to Lesotho on a specific date.

CHAIRPERSON: And if they actually wanted to attend a wedding 
or a funeral, what would they say?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Then they would come back and say, we would 
attend that on such and such a day.

CHAIRPERSON: The person who sends the letter ... (intervention)

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairman, perhaps you have understood me 
wrong.  If he said he is going to send somebody with a message, he 
says there would be a wedding on such and such a day.  It had 
nothing to do with a wedding.  The date was important.  So that 
means the people had to be sent on that specific date.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand you, you didn't understand me, but 
we will come back to that later.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: I think what the Judge wants to ask, if there was 
really a wedding and they were really invited to a wedding, say for 
instance come to my daughter's wedding, and he accepts the 
invitation and says he is willing to come, how would you distinguish 
between an innocent invitation and an invitation which was encoded, 
could you comment on that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't comment on that, there is the possibility 
that that could happen.  But I would have determined whether there 
was a real wedding.  It could have happened that there was a real 
wedding.  But it could have been an innocent letter.

ADV BOOYENS: But what was important regarding the innocent 
letter was not only the letter, but the address to which it was sent?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: There were too many weddings and funerals 
mentioned in letters to the Roma Church for example?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And this was well-known ANC addresses?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Were these addresses where you would expect 
that a member of the Security Branch would correspond with 
people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

ADV BOOYENS: A member of the Security Branch rather?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, no.

ADV BOOYENS: These were kind of cover up addresses?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: These were cover up addresses, yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And these addresses, those were the addresses 
where the weddings and funerals were mentioned in the letters?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Were you satisfied that some of the 
correspondence which Mgoduka received, also entailed coded 
messages?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You  say Mgoduka, Faku, Mapipa and Sehati 
were not members of the intelligence unit, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words they were outside this counter 
espionage operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: But three of them, they have already been 
associated at the least three years, with the Security Branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: If the three of them, or the four of them, pooled 
their intelligence regarding the Security Branch, the informers, the 
possible informers, the safe premises, it would have been an 
enormous source of information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You refer to a safe premises at Tesco which he 
knew about?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You mention in paragraph 17 that the monitoring 
apparatus which you installed, that was in the tea room?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Also bore fruit in the end?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And in paragraph 18 you summarised what you 
found there.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Were the only those four people present in the 
tea room at that stage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Mgoduka and Sehati told you, and they told the 
other two that they made contact with a family member of Mr 
Mgoduka who was involved in the liberation struggle?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Please be careful, the paper makes a lot of noise.

ADV BOOYENS: I am sorry Mr Commissioner.  The Security 
Police had a kind of photo system or a system of photographs which 
you used for identification?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You had a photo album of exiles and based on 
this, you determined that there was a family member of Mgoduka 
who was in exile?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: If we could possibly just explain.  The photo 
album consists of a separate index, it is especially used for 
photograph identification?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: I don't seem to recall we have had documentary 
exhibits this far Mr Chairman, I think this will be the first one.  I 
shall mark it as Exhibit A1 and A2.  And you determined that 
photograph number 2044, was the photograph of Mr Christopher 
Mgoduka and A1 and A2 are photocopies of the photo album of 
exiles and also its index?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: If I could hand this in Mr Chairman.  We have 
made copies for all the legal counsel.  We have copies for the family.
	Mgoduka and Sehati said that they had already tried to make 
contact and the other two said that they were interested to ... 
(indistinct)

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you discuss this interpretation with 
Brigadier Gilbert?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: At that stage, two of the members also according 
to what you have said, had made contact with the ANC and there 
were two on their way to make contact?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Gilbert's first reaction was to transfer these 
people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Would that have been successful?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, it would not.

ADV BOOYENS: Why not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They could escape.

ADV BOOYENS: Let's start from the beginning.  Should all four 
of them had been transferred?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Then they would have immediately realised that 
we know about their activities.  The chances were that they would 
try to escape.

ADV BOOYENS: At that stage they were still functioning as 
moles, if these people had to flee and would be debriefed by trained 
intelligence operators, were you satisfied that they had tremendous 
lot of intelligence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I am satisfied with that.

ADV BOOYENS: You yourself at a certain stage, debriefed 
various agents who came back?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Just is not a discussion which took 5 or 10 
minutes over a cup of tea, is that correct?