Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, I understand English although it is not my mother tongue, I understand it like any other person whose English is not his mother tongue.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]  my system, in any event.  I can't hear the interpreters.  It's wonderful to hear the silence.

ADV MEMANI: And you also understand Afrikaans?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, I do understand Afrikaans.  That's not my first language, it's my second language.

ADV MEMANI: You are satisfied that the interpreters are interpreting your evidence correctly?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I'm satisfied because they tell me exactly what you're saying.

ADV MEMANI: And at any stage when you have problems with the interpretation, you have the right to inform the Committee that the interpretation is not correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman with respect, he's listening to a translation in Tswana over his headphones, he's not hearing the English translation or the Afrikaans translation, so how can the witness comment on that?

ADV MEMANI: No, I can hear both, he can also hear both.
	   Now Mr Bokaba, you say at paragraph 6.2:
"the applicant contacted me with the request that he wanted to join the security force police at the time, well knowing that I was the contact person if he was at all interested"
	Now, Mr Ngo has firstly denied that he ever had this conversation with you and you say that he had the conversation.  What is of importance here which I want you to deal - which I want us to deal with is that he spoke to you because he knew that you were the contact person if he was interested.  I assume that what you're saying is that if he was interested in joining the security branch, he knew very well that you were the contact person, am I correct?

HENDRIK BOKABA: That is true because he had an interest and then he came to me, knowing that I was the only member of the security branch who was staying at the barracks and because he had the interest to join the security branch, he came to me.

ADV MEMANI: And on his version, he did not apply but he was just called up so to speak and he was made to work with security branch.

HENDRIK BOKABA: According to him?  What I said is that he came to me at the barracks, he contacted me and then he told me that he had an interest to join the security branch.  What he said to you, he told you that but I know that he contacted me at the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: You see, I'm putting it to you that you are lying.  Ngo had much better contacts than yourself, you were a mere constable then.   He knew Lieutenant Shaw, he knew Colonel Coetzee, he knew Lieutenant Erasmus in whom he had confidence.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Those people you have mentioned, I don't know them.  Even if they can come to this hall, I'll never identify them.  If he had that contact with them - not with those I worked with.

ADV MEMANI: These people had a system that assisted him in joining the police force despite the fact of his previous convictions, they had worked with him, they had even provided him with a gun before he was trained in the use of firearms.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know all of those things you're mentioning.

ADV MEMANI: They were White, had more influence that yourself and they had much higher ranks than you.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know all those things you're saying to me.

ADV MEMANI: Those were his contacts in the security branch.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know that.

ADV MEMANI: You know by the same token, what you say at 6.3 that
"at that time the applicant informed you that before he joined the police, he had been an informer of the security branch, Bloemfontein and I thought that it was correct that he should be granted the opportunity to maybe join the security police at that time"
is also a lie.

HENDRIK BOKABA: That's what he said to me.

ADV MEMANI: Now, he told - I think it is - okay.  At paragraph 6.4 you say that
"I contacted my direct commander, Colonel Flip Loots who granted the applicant an interview in respect of his willingness and participation in the security police"
	Now, you heard evidence here that your direct commander would have been Hechter but that you sometimes reported to Flip Loots.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Which way did I explain?

ADV MEMANI: And if that is correct, this can't be correct - that your direct commander was Colonel Flip Loots.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I explained to you that Hechter was a team leader, I explained that.  Maybe the Committee didn't understand that.  Then our section commander, our direct commander was Captain Flip Loots who is now - then he became a Colonel at a later stage.  I did mention something like team leader.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, but then the team leader would be your direct commander and then Loots as you say, was the section commander.

HENDRIK BOKABA: That's how you understand that.

ADV MEMANI: Well, if Loots - let me put it like this, what type of person would you have referred to as a direct commander and how would you distinguish your team leader from your direct commander?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I would say my team leader is my commander in the
field.

ADV MEMANI: And that is the person who gives you commands directly?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Not directly at all times.  Let me explain it this way, at times Hechter would go on leave and then we'd direct commands from Loots.  Is that so? It depends on the situation.  It doesn't mean that if this person is your immediate commander that he would be your commander all the time, he had other commitments which he had to fulfill at the end of the day so that in that instance  you'd not get direct commands from him, you'd get them from somebody else.

ADV MEMANI: Let us say both Loots and Hechter were present, the person you'd take commands from would be Hechter, isn't it - directly?

HENDRIK BOKABA: You say if Hechter and Loots were present, what happened?

ADV MEMANI: If Hechter and Loots are both present and none of them is on leave, you take your commands directly from Hechter.

HENDRIK BOKABA: If it's from Loots, it's possible that I would get direct commands.

ADV MEMANI: I'm not saying that it's not possible but you must say yes, you do take instructions directly from Hechter.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Even from Loots I'd get instructions, I would not get
- you want me to say yes, even from Loots I'd get instructions.  Loots would come to me and say Hendrik, I ask you to give me these specific files for a certain issue or for a certain purpose - that is an instruction, I'd take that file and give it to him.

ADV MEMANI: I know that even the Minister of Justice could come to you and say: "stand on parade" but you wouldn't call him your direct commander, would you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know how you want me to answer this question to satisfy you.

ADV MEMANI: What difficulty have you got with conceding that the person you would ordinarily take commands from, was Hechter?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I've problems because look, I said to you even Loots would give me instructions although Hechter was my team leader but even Loots would give me instructions.  I don't know as whether you understand the way I explain it.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me clarify what you're putting to him.  As I understand it you're putting to him that he in the field in Mamelodi would get his direct instructions from Hechter.

ADV MEMANI: On the version that they've given.

CHAIRPERSON: But not on the version that Mr Ngo has given?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.   Now, what difficulty have you got in conceding that from the nature of the command structure, the person you would take commands directly from usually, on you version would have been Hechter.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't agree, I deny that I was receiving instructions from Hechter as he was team leader but even from Loots there were - I would receive other instructions to do that - it couldn't be a problem.