Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

MR NTSEBEZA: No, I just wanted to say in this country there was a very thin dividing line, very, very thin dividing line as to what could have been construed to be a political or common law offence.
 In fact even those who call themselves political offenders, call themselves political offenders in terms of the law, but otherwise they were all regarded as criminal offenders by the authorities that be.  So I do say to the extent that we have a submission, and the submission is properly made, I think the legalities as to whether our Act provides or does not provide for this sort of submission, is not the sort of question that we should put to the witness, it is for the TRC to examine itself and to examine the Act and I for one, am not prepared in the light of what I knew the Law to have been in those days, to split hairs as to whether this is or is not a proper and an appropriate forum for submissions of this nature to be made.
 As I say, it is a very thin dividing line that divides what was construed to have been political and common law in this country and i think to that extent we should really appreciate that we have the Golden Miles Bhudu's who are pricking or conscience and actually making the point that even if we talk about the TRC having been construed to present as complete a picture as possible, in the context of the political conflicts of the past, how many of those who disappeared, were in fact so-called common law offenders?
 Some of them may have even been in prison for having contravened the Pass Law or a Group Areas Act and just for being in prison for a brief 48 hour period, ended up in graves that are unmarked.
 So I really think that the appropriate thing for this Commission is to welcome the submissions that have been made and I think it is for us and my comrades Tom, to see to what extent as a Commission not put it to the witness, to what extent we can accommodate such submissions that has been made.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Hugh?

MR LEWIN: Could I just ask Comrade ...

THOMAS MANTHATA: I was just pointing a point as it is.   I have not taken any side and it is for the TRC to keep repeating what it is which is what makes the people to come to it.  It is not a question of whether the submission is right, whether the submission is wrong.  It is just a re-emphasis of what the TRC is all about.

CHAIRPERSON: Hugh?

MR LEWIN: Thanks Madam Chair.  I just wanted to ask one final question.  Golden Miles you say that there is life after the TRC, certainly.  Have you any ideas as to what sort of structures you would support because the transformation unit for instance has fallen apart, hasn't it?

GOLDEN MILES BHUDU: Yes, of course.  In fact if you can go to our submission on page 6, that it would be of course appreciated after the life span of the TRC, that a proper sort of independent commission of enquiry be established that will deal with all these arguments of people who died and disappeared and I can assure you if such an investigation is going to be established with some data base that were left over in the TRC, people will be discovered who died under very suspicious circumstances and that of course will keep on contributing towards healing this nation and reconciling with it.
 In a nutshell, we would really be appreciated in the future, if an independent commission of inquiry gets off the ground, that will deal with each and every issue and make further contribution where the TRC left.

MR LEWIN: Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bhudu, thank you very much for giving us insights into the gross human right violations that are perpetrated against common law prisoners.
 I know it is very easy for people not to be sympathetic about criminals, especially at this time in our country where you open a newspaper, you hear about the gruesome murders that take place, sexual abuse and the hijackings and so on.
 And in that context, you will find that people at the end distance themselves from any improvements on human rights of such criminals or prisoners, but today you have given us another picture and this morning Paula McBride tried to share with us how the crime rate in this country is caused by the evils of the past and how the death sentence cannot be the answer to stop such crime.
 So I think a very important fact that has come out from your submission is that whether somebody is a criminal or a common law prisoner, he has got rights because Article 3 and 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says everyone has the right to life, liberty and the security of person and no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
 So, we are grateful for your submission and we will read that as a Commission and see how it can form part of the recommendations that we are supposed to make.  Thank you very much.

GOLDEN MILES BHUDU: Thank you.