Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-25

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, thank you for the indulgence yesterday, I have had the application translated.  I have provided it to the various parties and I've given it to the official interpreters to make sure that it's been done accurately and requested that should they have any problems with it then they bring it to the attention of the Committee.  I'm therefore now in a position to proceed with the evidence of the third applicant, that is Jabulani Doda Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather you're not going to substitute it for the alleged translation on the record, so should we call this E, Exhibit E?

MR WILLS: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I may say that one of the members of the Committee has already taken steps to endeavour to ensure that the translations are checked a little more carefully in future, we regret that you have been put through these difficulties.

MR LAX: Mr Wills are you - this monitory report that was handed to us, do you want to introduce that as well?

MR WILLS: Yes I may as well introduce that as well.  I have again provided this, this is a copy of the Natal Monitor which is a summary of the political violence in Natal and it's Volume 2, numbers 3 and 4 and it's for the period April and May 1992.  I'd like that to be handed in as Exhibit F.

CHAIRPERSON: F.

MR WILLS: I will specifically be raising this when my colleague, the evidence leader, introduces witnesses to substantiate the allegation that there wasn't any violence in the area at that time.  Thank you.

MR WILLS: Could the witness please be sworn in, the third applicant?

MR LAX: Mr Cele, can you hear me properly?  If you can please switch on your microphone, the red button?
Thank you.

JABULANI DODA CELE: (sworn states)

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Cele, you filled in an application form for amnesty on the prescribed form whilst you were in prison and you attested to this on the 26th day of November 1996 at Westville Prison.  Now do you recall that?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the contents contained therein are correct?  Do you stand by those contents?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, for the record the original Zulu version appears at pages 8 to 17 of the record and for record purposes our translation is Exhibit E and the official Truth Commission translation appears at pages 1 - 7 of the record.
I will be utilising Exhibit E in the main, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Cele, you've heard the evidence of your comrades and your co-applicants in this matter and particularly the detailed version of the attack given by the first witness, Mr Shange.  Do you stand by what Mr Shange says or do you have anything that you would like to say about the evidence which he gave?

JABULANI DODA CELE: I confirm what Mr Shange attested to.

MR WILLS: Now Mr Shange testified to the effect that you were a guard and that you stood some distance away at a higher level to guard while the attack, while the other four people attacked the bus itself.  Do you agree to that?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And Mr Shange said that you did not in fact fire any shots at the bus, is that correct?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: But I take it after having read your amnesty application form that you associated yourself fully with the activities of the other persons who did in fact shoot at the bus?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me Mr Shange, when were you born?

JABULANI DODA CELE: In 1974.

MR WILLS: And where were you born?

JABULANI DODA CELE: At Umbunbulo.

MR WILLS: And where were you residing at the time of the attack or should I rather say where did you consider your home to be?

JABULANI DODA CELE: It's Mashawase.

MR WILLS: And now were you residing there at the time of the attack?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: We've heard evidence that certain persons were forced to flee the area?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me what your position was?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That happened to me as well.  On a Saturday morning we heard that there would be a meeting at the chief's kraal, I went to a following on that day.  I heard that after I had left there was fighting that broke out in the area.

MR WILLS: I'm asking you Mr Shange, if you stayed living in the area or did you have to flee the area?

JABULANI DODA CELE: I was supposed to leave the area.

MR WILLS: And now why were you forced to leave the area?

JABULANI DODA CELE: It was the IFP that forced us to leave.

MR WILLS: Why?  Please just relax and tell us, you don't have to be so nervous, just tell us exactly the circumstances surrounding why you had to leave the area?

JABULANI DODA CELE: When the meeting broke up at the chief's kraal, the people who had attended the meeting decided that they did not want any comrades in the area any more so they attacked them and that is how we got to leave the area.

MR WILLS: Now when you say we, can you estimate from your area how many people were involved in this flight or this - how many people left, just roughly?

JABULANI DODA CELE: About 200.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr - the first witness, Mr Shange, gave evidence that there were approximately 200 refugees from the two areas, that's Mkwali and the area where you came from living at Umbagaba at the time of the attack.  Are you aware of that?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And you confirm that?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now if the Committee would just bear with me very shortly?
	You come from the Mashawase area, is that right?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now that adjoins another area called Mkwali area?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now it seems to me from the evidence that these areas are very close together.  Is that right?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: In fact there's been evidence to the effect that the only reason they're given different names is because there's two schools, the one is called the Mkwali school and the other ones called the Mashawase School, is that right?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you've testified to the effect that you were forced to leave the Mashawase area, you and others?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And do you have knowledge of whether or not the same thing happened in regard to the Mkwali area?

JABULANI DODA CELE: I am not absolutely certain of what happened but the comrades were also attacked there when they left the area.

MR WILLS: Where did you go to school.

JABULANI DODA CELE: At Dimane in Mkwali.

MR WILLS: And what educational standard did you reach before leaving school?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Standard 6.

MR WILLS: And how old were you when you left school or what year was it when you left school?

JABULANI DODA CELE: I left in 1990.

MR WILLS: And when did you become a member of the ANC?

JABULANI DODA CELE: In 1992.

MR WILLS: Now why did you become a member of the ANC?

JABULANI DODA CELE: The reason that I joined ANC is that I realised that it was an organisation that was involved in the fight for human rights.

MR WILLS: Do you know a person called Hamilton Gumede?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Do you know where he's from?

JABULANI DODA CELE: At Mkwali.

MR WILLS: And do you know what political party he is affiliated to?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Well tell the Committee?

JABULANI DODA CELE: He is an IFP supporter.

MR WILLS: And how do you know that?

JABULANI DODA CELE: I know that because the people who were with him were fighting stayed at his house.

MR WILLS: Now in relation to this attack, you were requested by the police to make a statement which amounted to a confession and was accepted as such by the judge in your trial, is that correct?  You made this on the 22 May 1992 before a Magistrate in Durban?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.