Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, are we ready to commence?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman,there seems to be some confusion. On your papers, the front cover, the index,there is reference to the first applicant as Makoma, the second one Mkhumbuziwho is here. Those two are here. The third one who is here is a gentleman knownas Thobela Mlambisa. Mr Letlapa Mphlalele who had brought an application, isI understand not attending. He will not be attending. That is Letlapa Mphlalele,he made an application, he was notified but I gather he will not be appearing.I can't hear you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he communicated that?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I am advised by those who represent the P

<UNKNOWN>: in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So now, is there somebody else in the application by Mr Mphlalele?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes, and that is this gentleman Mr Thobela Mlambisa.

<UNKNOWN>: nd we doesn't have an application for him?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I will arrangeto get it out, I don't know how this happened, how these things have gone likethis. I understand however, there was application lodged and it is very muchin the same terms as the application form, form 1's which you have in respectof Mkhumbuzi and Makoma and I understand further that affidavits had been preparedby those representing these three on the same form as in the

<UNKNOWN>: my

<UNKNOWN>: iehl matter.

CHAIRPERSON: May we have the name of the third applicant Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, please.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: The third applicant today is Thobela Mlambisa.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, learnedmembers of the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee. Myself and my colleague, Ms Goza appear here for theseapplicants in this matter. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, it is correct that Mr Mphlalele, hasnot given us any instructions. We actually don't know where he is at the moment,so we are not here to represent him and he is not before the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee. In anycase it will become apparent soon, that he was not actively involved in theSt James incident, it would appear from his application for amnesty relatingto the St James incident, that at the time, he is the time who gave the orders,the instructions, he was the Director of Operations of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , so he is not herebefore you today unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: MrMlambisa is in fact an accused in the trial pending against him and

<UNKNOWN>: assie Mkhumbuziin the St James matter and we were always under the impression that his applicationis before you, so just last week, during the course of last week, we submittedan affidavit on behalf of Mr Mlambisa stating that he did in fact apply. Sincethen, we have been told that his application had been found and that the matteris enroled to be heard today together with the other two. I am not sure whatarrangements internally, why Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink was not advised of this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink you will sort that out in due course?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I will mostcertainly do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Honourable

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee, we appear, myself and Mr O'Dowd, who is from the firmHofmeyr Herbsteins, today I appear on his instruction to represent the victimsin this matter, Mr Dawie

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman and Mr Lorenzo Smith. I understand that thereare a number of victims of the massacre present at the hearing today, althoughthey have not all specifically and formally opposed the matter, they are infact present at the hearing today. We however only represent Mr Smith and Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, good, thank you. We will recordthat.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, may I also ask you to make a note I didreceive by way of correspondence a formal objection to the applications foramnesty by Mr Dimitri Makogon. This gentleman is away from

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town at thistime, but indicated that he strongly oppose the application. He was in the churchwhen this incident happened and he lost two legs and one arm. He was a Russiancitizen. Whether he is still ...

CHAIRPERSON: What is the date of that letter?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: That came, and I haven't got the letter with me immediately,but it came about three weeks ago. It was fairly recent.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: s far as all the next of kin and victims are concerned, notificationwas given to all those who had an available address. I may say that

<UNKNOWN>: ishop FrankRetief, the

<UNKNOWN>: ishop of the

<UNKNOWN>: hurch of England South

<UNKNOWN>: frica, and who is apparentlyconnected to St James

<UNKNOWN>: hurch, was very helpful and cooperative and he sent mea list of all those whose whereabouts he was aware of and notices accordingly,were given to those people. In addition notice of these proceedings were publishedin the church magazine, so that, and I believe announced in church itself, sothat all those who were involved, apart from those who have left

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town andleft the country, are aware of the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse?

ADVARENDSE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Just for the record, the applicants aresitting from left to right in the order in which we intend to, or we proposeto deal with the applications.

<UNKNOWN>: assie Mkhumbuzi and in the middle Thobela Mlambisaand on his left Gcinikhaya Makoma. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, as far as objections to theamnesty applications are concerned, my colleague and I, we only know about thatthrough the press. We haven't been given or we don't know, we can only assumeon what basis the applications are being opposed. Now, I suppose that Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckermanand Mr Smith will be giving evidence before this

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee. We haven't had thebenefit of seeing any statements which they have perhaps submitted or handedin to the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee or to the TR

<UNKNOWN>: , so we haven't had the benefit of discussingthem with the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in the past the practise hasjust been that notification, rather notice of these applications are sent tointerested parties and they turn up on the morning of the trial to say theyare opposing the application and that is the notification we received. In termsof the

<UNKNOWN>: ct, they are not required to furnish the grounds for opposition. Inother words, the

<UNKNOWN>: ct doesn't say that they mustn't furnish, but there is noprovision in the

<UNKNOWN>: ct requiring them to furnish their grounds for opposition.So we just have to do the best we can as we go along.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Iagree, I just mentioned that just in case we need to ask for an adjournmentor whatever to take instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Then also just for the record, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, Mr Mlambisa's application numberis

<UNKNOWN>: M7596/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: When was it submitted?Do you know when it was submitted, what date it was received by the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, did I understand earlier that you may be handingin documents at some stage? If your documents are ready it might be convenientif you made them available as soon as you can.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Judge, I believewe are at the present in the process of preparing some extra copies. Perhapsin also in response to my learned friend's comments, we were as I previouslyadvised, briefed in this matter on very short notice, we have only had sometwo days to prepare for the matter and that is the reason for no proper previousdiscussion between us as to the opposition of the matter and we, as I also mentioned,may also require some indulgence from the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee in that regard.