Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DE KONING: And it could also have created the impression with them that the time for action was on hand, because the first shots had already been fired, so to speak?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: And you would then also agree with me that that could have been interpreted as incitement to violence?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Well that's their own inference which they could draw, but it's possible.

MR DE KONING: Well, given the circumstances, I want to put it to you, it was clear what was going on in their minds?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: If I understand it correctly, you would also agree with me that you were in some way aware of the fact that these two applicants, like yourself, had associated yourselves with this liberation struggle and the mood of defiance as to what was happening at the time?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: And their intense interest in the explosions which took place that morning and their approach of you to try and find out what exactly was happening, those are also indications of the fact that they saw you as somebody who knew more than they did and who was a leader?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: Am I correct if I infer from your testimony that when you told them that the resistance of the boers had started, you believed in your own mind that the explosion which had taken place on that day was an explosion caused from right wing circles?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That is correct.

MR DE KONING: And that was also the message which you tried to convey to them by the statement which you made to them?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Correct.

MR DE KONING: So, insofar as they had any doubt as to who was responsible for those explosions, you, during your meeting with them on the morning of the 27th, you conveyed to them that it had been caused by the right wing and the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: You in fact, if we look at the spirit of what is stated in paragraph 13, you also said to them that, "This is not the end and we also have to make our own contribution as far as is necessary"?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Correct.

MR DE KONING: And you can't say that these events and these communications to them directly or indirectly was responsible for the fact that they went and did what they in fact did later that day?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Correct.

MR DE KONING: Maybe I should ask you this, do I understand your evidence correctly that the propaganda which originated from the higher echelons of the AWB was to the effect that violence should be perpetrated to cause disruption?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That is correct.

MR DE KONING: And you heard Mr Wheeler testifying as to the possibility that was considered to plant a bomb at the United Bank or something like that, did you hear that?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: You would agree with me that the United Bank is not per se a political target?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Correct.

MR DE KONING: So the objective of the violence which was propagated by the AWB was to instill fear in the community at large?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct.

MR DE KONING: Do I understand it correctly that it was part of the AWB's propaganda that this fear should be instilled so the people will stay at home and no go and vote so that the elections are scuppered?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: Well I'm asking you, is that how you understood the objectives or did you understand it to be one of the objectives?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: And you would not have understood it in that way if it hadn't been said, whether from the political platforms or at secret meetings where members of the AWB had talks?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: You say that you regarded both of the applicants as members of the AWB by virtue of their sympathy for the cause and their visible involvement in the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Correct.

MR DE KONING: Please bear with me for a moment, I'm nearly finished.   I see that in paragraph 11 of your statement you refer to the fact that you were involved in the AWB and the Mineworkers Union, and you say that
"At AWB meetings and at Mineworkers meetings, I heard that there was the capacity amongst white workers across the country to paralyse the country overnight by interrupting strategic services."
Am I to infer from that, that the Mineworkers Union also had a right wing political undertone?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: In paragraph 14 of your statement, about the middle of the paragraph, you say, the sentence starting with the word "we"
"We were previously called up to resist and to wage a freedom struggle, but nobody specified it in any detail."
You would agree with me that, as I understand your evidence, although it was never specified what exactly this resistance and freedom struggle should be, it was generally known that it referred to violence?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Correct.

MR DE KONING: And that was the view of the AWB and their propaganda?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: And that is also the vision that you shared with the two applicants?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR DE KONING: Please just give me a moment, Chairperson.  Thank you, Chairperson.   Mr De Bruin, you've already conceded that the applicants had reasonable grounds for believing that you had some leadership position in the AWB and that you also had some inside information as to the activities of the AWB.   You'd also concede that that could have misled them into thinking that you were also a person who could issue orders?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That is correct.

MR DE KONING: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr De Koning.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE KONING

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, do you have any questions?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, just two questions, thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, I'd like to understand from you, you're an AWB member and you have a good idea of the AWB'S policy, what it stands for, etcetera?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: I knew what the AWB's affairs were, not everything, but the basic policy, but because I'm no longer actively involved in the AWB, I've lost all interest in the organisation.

MR STEENKAMP: No, but I'm referring to the time of the incident?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes, I was very much aware of what was going on.

MR STEENKAMP: Was it ever the policy of the AWB that all black people were enemies of the AWB and should therefore be killed, was that ever their policy?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It wasn't the policy, but that was the idea that Mr Terreblanche conveyed to us.

MR STEENKAMP: Did he say that all black people were enemies of the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Basically, yes.   He did not allow any black person as a registered member of the AWB.

MR STEENKAMP: Would he have allowed or would he have approved of the AWB killing any black person in this period of time?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No.

MR STEENKAMP: Well could you then tell me, or explain to me, where does the applicant's political motivation fit into this policy of the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It's difficult, I suppose those are inferences which you drew from conversations with leadership figures in the AWB or things that were said at meetings.

MR STEENKAMP: When you heard of this incident, whilst you were still an AWB member, did you agree with their conduct as an AWB member, not personally, but as an AWB member, did you agree with what they did?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: As AWB member and as a person, it shocked me, and I did not agree with the conduct.

MR STEENKAMP: Why not?   Because it wasn't AWB policy, or why?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Because I felt that it served no purpose and I felt shocked about it.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, any re-examination?