Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

MR PRIOR: I want to refer to page 160 of the initial Bundle, Mr Chairman.  The submission is made on behalf of APLA at the TRC hearing and I refer to the third paragraph.
	I want to read to you what was submitted on behalf of APLA by Brigadier Mofokeng on the 7th of October 1997, before the TRC.  He said "the rights that were offered APLA cadres can be grouped into three categories, the right to equal treatment, the right of individual APLA members to have open and fair participation in the process of decision making that affected their lives and well-being, the right to express opinions, to information, to attend meetings, make contributions and be greatly involved in the political life of the organisation."

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MR PRIOR: Do you agree with that submission, do you embrace it?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I do agree with that.

MR PRIOR: And that was the way the APLA cadres functioned within the organisation, within the military structures of APLA, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Now, would you agree that at least during November and December before the Heidelberg attack, in 1993, that the political situation within South Africa at the time, was moving towards a democratic solution to the country's problems?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I agree.

MR PRIOR: In fact your very own political party, the PAC, was an active member in those political negotiations towards a peaceful settlement of the conflict, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, I think the witness has already referred to that in his evidence in chief.  Perhaps you want to go straight to the question.  He has referred to that already in his evidence in chief.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Did it not bother you, did it not worry you that despite the political atmosphere in the country,  and given the fact as we know it later, that the elections occurred a few months after the Heidelberg attack, against that background, did it bother you in any way that these attacks were ordered, particularly the one at the Heidelberg Tavern in Observatory?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, it did not trouble me because I was carrying out orders.

MR PRIOR: What did you know about the Heidelberg Tavern, can you tell us?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all, I do not know Cape Town well, I did not know Heidelberg Tavern well.  I just got the information when I was being briefed by my Commander.

MR PRIOR: Is that Nonxuba who briefed you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, it was Nonxuba who briefed me.

MR PRIOR: And that was in Umtata some days or weeks before the attack on Heidelberg Tavern?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was in Ixopo in Transkei.

MR PRIOR: All right, now you say he told you it was a place frequented by military personnel, or Security Forces?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you say that before the attack on the 30th of December you went there about three days before?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: And that was in day time?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Did you see any military personnel or Security Forces entering the premises?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That was not my job to be looking out for policemen at the time.  I just went to familiarise myself with the Tavern.

MR PRIOR: Well, part of that familiarisation, wouldn't that include who your potential intended victims might be?  What they looked like?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That was immaterial to me what type of people they were, I was just given orders to go and attack this place.  I only had one thing to do as an APLA member, I had to carry out orders.

MR PRIOR: You see, I can understand the attack on the Army Base at Nyanga and the attack on the Lingelethu West police station.  Are you saying, did I understand you correctly, that the Heidelberg Tavern, you saw that in the same light as the Army and the police station?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What do you mean to see?

MR PRIOR: Well, did you believe that the Heidelberg Tavern was of the same nature as the Army Base and the police station, possibly from a military point of view?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: According to the instructions I was given, I was told to go and attack the place.  How I saw it, was immaterial.  My job was to carry out the instruction and attack.

MR PRIOR: Yes, the question is, did you in fact see there was a difference, irrespective of your orders?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I saw no difference in that.  I saw no difference.

MR PRIOR: Now, did you not go into the Tavern at this three days before the attack to see what it looked like inside?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No.

MR PRIOR: Why not?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I just went to familiarise myself of the place, I didn't go there to sit in the Tavern.  There was nothing of mine, belonging to me in the Tavern.

MR PRIOR: Well, I don't understand why you simply just went there to familiarise yourself with the street or with the building or what?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was going to be the one to deploy forces.  I could not deploy forces to an unfamiliar place.  I had to know how the building was situated.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that if one stands in the street and looks at the entrance to the Heidelberg premises, it says in bold writing, Heidelberg Bar and Restaurant?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: So, can we accept at the very least, that you knew this wasn't a police station or an Army Base?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was given an order to attack Heidelberg Tavern and to attack the Base at Nyanga East.  I was given orders to attack Heidelberg Tavern under the given orders.

MR PRIOR: And did that not make any difference that civilian people may be killed?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Are you asking me as Luyanda?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I am.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: If you are given an order, it is not about how you feel or how you see it or how you perceive it, you do no question orders.  You know that, I am sure.

MR PRIOR: Well, I am going to ask you directly and I want you to reply.  How did you feel about the order to attack a bar and restaurant which would, and I want to suggest to you, you knew very well, was frequented by innocent civilian people, how did you feel about that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That was not my job, I was just carrying out orders.  It was not about my feelings.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I understand that part of it, but will you answer directly, what did you in fact think or feel about those orders?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I perceived the orders as being correct, I had to carry them out.  They were correct orders, I had to carry them out no matter what.

MR PRIOR: Were your orders simply to attack the building or were your orders to kill the people inside the premises as well?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was to kill anything that lived inside that Tavern.  I had not gone to attack the building.

MR PRIOR: And - sorry, did he add something to that?  Was that irrespective of whether the people in the Heidelberg Bar and Tavern were white people, black people, coloured people?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I did not care about that.  All I cared about was the orders I had to carry out.

MR PRIOR: So, from what I gather, you did not enter into the Tavern when you attacked it, fired at it, nor did anyone of your unit, as you could see, entered into the Tavern during the attack, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: This might be a convenient stage to take an adjournment.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will now adjourn and resume at two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION AT TWO O'CLOCK

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: (still under oath)