Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

CHAIRPERSON: I'm a little surprised Mr du Toit, you described yourself as someone who was into the community, who understood the needs of the community, who spoke with everyone you know ...(intervention)

MR DU TOIT: Ja, ja ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm surprised you can't remember who was at that meeting?  That meeting that you arranged yourself.  Is there any way that we can help you remember those people?

MR DU TOIT: I organised and arranged the meeting to take place in a house.  There were some people in the house who called me, but I'm not too sure about these people.  There was one man by the name of Magloi(?) he called me to his house, he was a shopkeeper and he said that there were a group of people who wanted to talk to the Police.  And then a couple of women and also some men were there, they were sitting there but I really can't recall who they were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes they would be sitting in a meeting, but surely you knew the people in the area?  You yourself testified that you were very familiar with the area, you were very familiar with many of the leaders, surely you know who was in that meeting from the community?

MR DU TOIT: Ja, ja ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell us who was in that meeting?

MR DU TOIT: I honestly can't tell you.  You must remember that this took place ten or eleven years ago, so I can't remember.  I do know that Mr Magloi called me and that I then saw a couple of people sitting down there.  They were middle-age or even elderly people, they weren't young people.  But I can't remember who they were.
 I immediately made the appointment and I think I went back and told Mr Magloi when the meeting took place and where.  And they then went off to the meeting on their own.  I honestly can't remember who these people were.

CHAIRPERSON: I find it difficult, even though you say you honestly can't remember, find it very difficult for someone who was milling among the community not to remember who the people in the community that you called to a meeting were.  It's just unthinkable.  How can you not remember?  Are you trying to mislead us into believing that you don't remember, or do you honestly don't remember, what is the position?

MR DU TOIT: I am most definitely not trying to mislead you.  I can't remember who these people were.  I honestly can't remember who this group were.

MARY BURTON: Perhaps if we ask you to confirm one or two of the names we have received by other information, would you know for example whether Mr Prince Ngobinqwa was at the meeting and Mr Sam Ndima?

MR DU TOIT: Sam Ndima I knew him, he was an elderly man but I can't remember whether he was there at that meeting.  Mr Ngobinqwa I did not know him at that time, I did not know him personally so I can't place him.  I can't remember whether Towi, as we called him, was present at that meeting.  I don't think he came to Mr Magloi's house when those few people were gathered there who wanted to talk to the Police.  I don't think he was with those people.   I can't remember that Sam Ndima was in Athlone at that stage.  If I provided transport I would remember better.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, excuse me Mary, you stated that the meeting was called by residents who wanted protection, which residents were these?

MR DU TOIT: I've referred to the people who lived there, the people whom I addressed at Mr Magloi's house, is that what you are referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I am asking you, when the meeting was called, it was called, you were responding to a request by residents for protection, now I'd like you to tell us which residents are you talking about, from which community?

MR DU TOIT: They came from Crossroads.  Those people talked on behalf of the people from Crossroads.

CHAIRPERSON: You spoke earlier on of sides, you said Mr Yamile had his group, Mr Ngxobongwana had his community, now which of these communities was the community for which you were holding the meeting?

MR DU TOIT: I don't think it was from the splinter group, I think it was the old original group, from the older people, from the original group, they wanted to have that meeting.  I may make a mistake but this is how I recall that.  It was only the original people who called the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us, just in terms of the sides, because that's the way you yourself have separated the groups, into Yamile's group with the satellite and Ngxobongwana's group with the satellites, from those sides which one was the group, where did the group that you met with come from?   From which side did they come from?  Can you define them in terms of those two sides which you yourself have defined?

MR DU TOIT: I think it was from the Ngxobongwana group, those were the people who came there.

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting in Athlone, the people you met in Athlone were from the Ngxobongwana group?

MR DU TOIT: Yes ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR DU TOIT: I repeat I can't remember exactly who were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary Burton.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  Just to go back then to that meeting and we've heard the request was put to the meeting for weapons to be supplied and that the answer was that no weapons could be supplied by the Police, but we have been told that Brigadier Strydom suggested that perhaps there were other mechanisms through which weapons could be obtained privately.  And I wonder whether you can tell us of any specific way or any specific structure through which the people who were referred to as Witdoeke could obtain weapons?

MR DU TOIT: I can't remember what Brigadier Strydom told these people, but the structures were the only structures I was acquainted with.  It does not matter to which colour or nationality he was, if he was a South African citizen the only structure by which he could legally apply for a fire weapon, there's only one structure, and that was to apply for a firearm licence.

MARY BURTON: Now in your information gathering you must have become aware of the fact that there were weapons, as you say if they were obtained illegally they were illegally owned weapons available in the area?

MR DU TOIT: Yes definitely, a person could have had a licensed weapon but the weapons used in that attack were illegal weapons.

MARY BURTON: And did you warn in your reports beforehand that illegal weapons were to your knowledge available in the area?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, definitely so, I regularly reported back that illegal firearms were used in that area in attacks.

MARY BURTON: And did you have any idea of where those weapons might have come from?

MR DU TOIT: No Madam Chair, it's unknown to me where those weapons had come from.  You will realise that most weapons which were illegal were found when their houses were robbed and they were looted and handgrenades and those type of weapons came from somewhere else, but it was not known to me from where they had come.

MARY BURTON: Now you said, I think it was in an interview with members of our investigation unit, that it was not your primary task to trace terrorists, I think those were your words, but surely if you heard about people who could be described as terrorists in the area or places where weapons were being hidden it was your task to identify those and to report on that?

MR DU TOIT: Definitely, yes Madam Chair.

MARY BURTON: And did you in your anticipation of, your knowledge of the presence of weapons and the presence of very serious conflict in the area, did you warn the authorities that such a serious attack was imminent and that steps should be taken to prevent it?

MR DU TOIT: Yes definitely, repeatedly and in every message I told the people that the danger was increasing and a conflict might develop.

MARY BURTON: And did you feel that steps were taken that could have prevented the outbreak of such serious conflict?