Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-12

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We were told the same day that we went to kill her.

MS MTANGA: The problem I have with that testimony Mr Sekgobela is that if you say the instructions were given at the football ground, you agree with Mtabasheng that you were with Mtabasheng at the football ground on that day and further that if Mtabasheng gave a statement to the police - in fact he gave a statement to the police and he did not mention that there was an ANC Youth League meeting where such a decision was taken.  Can you comment on this?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That was a very long statement, I do not understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just a minute.  Sorry Ms Mtanga.
	Mtabasheng, he was a member of the youth, not so?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he also support the ANC Youth League?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were part of the same political organisation?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he present at the meeting where you and others were chosen to kill the deceased?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct, he was present.

CHAIRPERSON: He heard what was going on at the meeting because you say they were speaking loudly there?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Ms Mtanga is putting to you that Mtabasheng made a statement to the police and he doesn't refer at all to such a meeting or to the fact that you and others were instructed to kill the deceased and she's asking if you've got anything to say about that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: My comment concerning this statement to the police is that I agreed with that because even in court we said the same thing.  That is one of the reasons that led to me being convicted along, it's because of this statement.

MS MTANGA: If the youth had indeed decided that Poppy should be killed and you were pointed by the youth in an open meeting, why is it that Mtabasheng - what would be the reason Mtabasheng not to mention this to the police because he was not selected to kill people or to kill Poppy?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Mtabasheng managed to tell the police about that but he failed to call the police when we were holding that meeting and when we were chosen.  He made this statement to the police after a long time in 1991 and he went on to tell the police that it's me who was responsible for this.

MS MTANGA: I put it to you Mr Sekgobela that it is not true that you were given instructions by the ANC Youth League to kill Poppy Serani.  What do you say to that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Please repeat that?

MS MTANGA: I am putting it to you that it is not true that you were instructed by the ANC Youth League to go and kill Poppy Serani.  You did not get such instructions from the ANC Youth League.  What do you say to this?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I would put it this way.  It is not the ANC Youth League alone, it was a decision taken by the community that if this person refused to leave the village she should be killed.

MS MTANGA: I further put it to you that the reason that you were the only one convicted for this offence it's also because you personally decided to go and kill Poppy Serani without the instructions of the community or the ANC Youth League as you allege.  What do you say to this?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is what they said even in court, they said I did that on my own.

MS MTANGA: Are you agreeing that it is true that you did this on your own?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I disagree with that, I did not do that on my own.

MS MTANGA: If you didn't do it on your own Mr Sekgobela, how come the people you were with were not convicted with you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I would put it this way, the people who were arrested before me was Lucas and David and Eric, that is Mboya, and I was arrested after that and the police told me that I should be a State witness and I told them I cannot do that, I cannot be a State witness.  The charges were dropped because it was said there was not enough evidence.  At that time the police were busy convincing these people because I refuse to be a State witness.  So the police told them that it would be to their advantage for them to be State witnesses and be against me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean to say that you were executing an order that was given publicly by the entire community where you were living and in the end ...(intervention)

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is what I say.

CHAIRPERSON: And in the end you were the only one that was held responsible for this because the police managed to twist the arms of your co-perpetrators?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They never told the police but we were just acting on orders of the community, we had nothing against the deceased, we didn't want to kill her personally but we were just asked by the community to do that.  Nobody said that or do I misunderstand the question?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Could you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody ever tell the police or the court that you and the other perpetrators were simply executing an order that was given to you by the community?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: In court Lucas Sekgobela put it that before the court and he told the court that they were convinced by the police to be against me because I remember one day I was even beaten by the police.  They used sjamboks because they said I arrived late at the meeting with them.  But he was discharged because there was not enough evidence against him to convict him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there's something else I don't understand.  You were testifying that the instruction was that the deceased should be killed if she refuses to leave, is that right?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: May you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand your testimony correctly, you were saying that you were instructed to kill the deceased if she refuses to leave the area, is that right or is it not right?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you went to kill her on the same day that you were given the order, this order that we're talking about.

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what steps were taken to get her to leave the area?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: There were no steps taken because herself, that is the deceased, walked out of the meeting and no one suggested that we should go and try and force her to leave and it was unanimously decided that she should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, she should be killed as you say, if she refuses to leave and you're also saying that no steps were taken to get her to leave the area?  Do you agree or disagree with that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I do agree.   The other three, when they were instructed to leave the village they did that and none of them resisted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the decision here was that she should be only killed if she refuses to leave?  You never killed her immediately, it also looks as if there was no view that she should be killed in any case?  There was a condition attached to that, to the killing, if she refuses to leave?  And what I don't understand and that's why I'm raising this with you is why you then just went and you killed her?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: When we took her to the witch-doctor, her three accomplices agreed that they would leave the village.  So that is why we took her along to the witch-doctor so that she could hear for herself that she's been pointed by the witch-doctor.  So when we came back she refused to leave the village, so I think that there were no other attempts that we could do to force her out of the village.