Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

MR LAX: You see, the person that's being referred to in these papers is an MK activist, not a Black Power activist, so it must be some other Ronald Oupa Madondo that you don't know about, because the one you know was a Black Power activist.  Have I understood you correctly?

MR VISSER: The Ronald Madondo that from informational reports in Soweto is known to me, is the one who as far as I know, was involved with Black Power activities.

MR LAX: Yes, but it's clear from these documents before us and from the family's documentation, that their Oupa Ronald Madondo and the one that is being spoken about in these papers by Meyer and others, MacAdam and so on, is an MK operative.  He was a member of MK, he'd been out of the country and trained militarily.  Now the inference one draws from that is that the Madondo you have in mind is a different Madondo to this Madondo.  Would you concede that?

MR VISSER: I will have to concede it because the one that I knew, according to my knowledge had not had military training.  It could have been, but according to my knowledge he had not had military training.

CHAIRPERSON: If I may just link to this.  These three photos, all three relate to Oupa Madondo who got training in Angola.

MR VISSER: I don't know that, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that is what the family says, the family identify these three persons, according to the information on the files, as Oupa Madondo.  According to the security photo, 2282 from the album, this Oupa Madondo was an MK member who was wanted and the family says, as I understood from the cross-examination, that these photo's on pages 140, 141 and 142, are all photos of the brother of the victim witness here and her brother was called Oupa Madondo and he got training in Angola and he disappeared in October/November 1979.

MR VISSER: All I'm trying to say, Mr Chair, is that the person, if his name was Oupa Ronald Madondo, then that would have rung a bell with me, but the Scorpion that I had to do with was not identical with Oupa Ronald Madondo.  One's memory can play one's ...(indistinct), but sometimes it comes back if a name that is related is heard.

CHAIRPERSON: But you also had to do with this person.  Were you present when he was interrogated about this double-agent role?

MR VISSER: I was.  After Maj van Rooyen reported to me I was present, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you in other words saw this person on and off for a couple of days and you say that's not his photos.

MR VISSER: I cannot positively place these photographs, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But if those are the photos of Oupa Madondo or a person known as Oupa Madondo and the person you have in mind as Oupa Madondo is another person who according to you is not this person ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Yes, that is what I would say, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ... and the person according to you who was killed was this other person, Scorpion, not the person on these photos?

MR VISSER: I cannot place him.  This Scorpion under discussion in my application I cannot place in regard to these photos, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you can't place him, but could it be him?

MR VISSER: Not if it's alleged that the name of the person is Oupa Ronald Madondo, then I would say that it's not correct.  Scorpion was not identical to Oupa Madondo.  The one in my application was not identical to Oupa Madondo.  I would have remember that name if I had been confronted with it.

CHAIRPERSON: But you do recall a name Oupa Madondo?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But according to your memory it was another person.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was not an MK, that person.

MR VISSER: It was not Scorpion, that's what I mean.  He was another person other than Scorpion.  As far as I know he was not an MK member.  He could have been and that it was not known to me.

CHAIRPERSON: But Scorpion was an MK member.

MR VISSER: Yes, arrested, trained MK member.

CHAIRPERSON: And Oupa was not an MK member.

MR VISSER: As far as my knowledge goes no, he wasn't.  It was not know to me that he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he ever arrested, Oupa?

MR VISSER: He could have been, but I can't confirm that or deny it at this stage.  There was more than one department in Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: Well according to our documents he was arrested.

MR VISSER: It could have been John Vorster Square, which also operated at Soweto, or a place in that vicinity.

MR LAX: If a person were detained in terms of Section 6 of the so-called Terrorism Act, would you as Branch Commander have known of that?

MR VISSER: If he had been detained by my branch, yes most probably.

MR LAX: If he came from Soweto?

MR VISSER: And was detained by Johannesburg?  Then I would not necessarily have known of it, no.

MR LAX: What you can say with certainty though, is that the Madondo that you know of would not have been detained because he was just involved in Black Power activities.

MR VISSER: No, the Madondo that I knew at that stage, yes, he was involved with Black Power activities.

MR LAX: So that person is a different person from this Madondo that is discussed in the documents.

MR VISSER: I can't say, it appears to be, yes.

MR LAX: And as far as these photographs are concerned,  these photos don't ring any bell for you?

MR VISSER: Please repeat.

MR LAX: You don't know the person in these photos?

MR VISSER: No, I don't.  I cannot relate the photos to anything.

MR LAX: Can you say with any certainty or give us information regarding the appearance of the deceased?

MR VISSER: All I know is that he was a smallish man, shortish man, relatively short.

MR LAX: Nothing else?

MR VISSER: No, I can't remember anything more.  If I could see a very clear photograph then I may be able to identify him.

MR LAX: So you can't even say - you can't recall his image in your mind.

MR VISSER: No, I can't, I'm sorry.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Chair.

ADV SANDI: That makes me even more confused about this.  If you cannot recall a clear image of this person in your mind now, how are you able to say the image that appears on page 140 and 141 cannot be that person?

MNR VISSER: "Die eerste instansie is, dis amper 20 jaar gelede, mnr die Voorsitter, en my geheue wil dit he dat terwyl Scorpion, die opgeleide MK lid ondervra was, was Madondo nog in Soweto bedrywig met Swart Mag bedrywighede en so aan".   ...(no English interpretation)

ADV SANDI: I hear that you have attempted to give some kind of physical description of the Madondo in respect of whose murder you are applying for amnesty for, Scorpion in other words.

MNR VISSER: "Ek het 'n beskrywing van Scorpion probeer gee, dat dit 'n baie kort persoon was, klein persoon was".

ADV SANDI: Yes.  What was his complexion, was he a very dark person, fair complexioned?

MNR VISSER: "Nee hy was nie baie donker gewees nie, Voorsitter".

ADV SANDI: The other Madondo you say you used ...(indistinct) from the Black Power Movement, what was his profile there, did he hold any portfolio in the Black Power movement?

MR VISSER: I cannot at this stage remember whether he held any position, Mr Chair.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you done?

MS VAN DER WALT: I am finished.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Visser, just on the identification, you say that you had something to do with the handling of this person, you weren't this handler, there was this other person, I think it was Martin Coetzee, Martin van Rooyen who was the actual handler, but he reported to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Martin Coetzee is our ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR VISSER: Martin van Rooyen was his handler and he reported to me regarding production and so on.

MR WILLS: Yes, so you would have known this person pretty well.  You would have had records on this person, Scorpion.

MR VISSER: Yes, I knew him reasonably well in terms of the interrogations done and the fact that Martin van Rooyen handled him and so on, Mr Chair.