Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-28

CHAIRPERSON: Well it says here the date, 26th, then they say "van" means "of which month".

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I thought maybe they are speaking of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: It was not deliberate that the month was deleted or not written.  Maybe on the word "van" there were brackets and then explain us where they need a month or what.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.  And the document which appears as annexure that's in your handwriting is it?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: That also bears no date.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: It is because of these things you fax them from prison.  I think that when it was faxed it would appear when it was faxed.

CHAIRPERSON: No but this is written, it's not faxed.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay.  I gave that to a prison official.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but underneath where you sign,
"Yours in chains - Mohapi Petrus Tapelo".
you don't put any date there, was that an oversight?  The membership card number you have 2007795 do you have that card with you?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I beg your pardon Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Your membership card of the ANC you give here on the form as 2007795 on the first page of the form, do you have your card with you?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we have a look at it?  It says here that you joined on the 12th of February 1991.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is for the Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to look at page 4 of your application form.  Have you got it in front of you?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is all in your handwriting.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you read the last paragraph, the bottom, the last paragraph after the word "so-called Blacks".

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay.
"So I wanted to fund-raise for my organisation as I was the Secretary General of the ANC I understood that money was needed in order to run such a big organisation, for example, to have telephones, transport and many..."
it was supposed to be "many" not "any",
"...other vital resources that will keep the organisation...."

CHAIRPERSON: What you wrote down here is that the truth?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: What you wrote down here is that the truth?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is true, but I would request that I should explain.

CHAIRPERSON: No just tell me is that the truth?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes that's the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were here raising money for the ANC, and you was then the Secretary General of the ANC?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: No...

CHAIRPERSON: That's what your words say here.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes I was the Secretary General of the ANC but I was not raising money for the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: No first of all I understand that you were not the Secretary General of the ANC, you were just a secretary of the branch, now you call yourself Secretary General of the ANC, that's not correct.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: What is your question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: You describe yourself as the Secretary General of the ANC, you were not the Secretary General of the ANC, is that correct?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So this is - you have described yourself wrongly by saying you were Secretary General?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I was the secretary general of the branch.

CHAIRPERSON: No it says you were secretary general of the ANC, it doesn't say that you were secretary of the branch.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is how we used to talk.

CHAIRPERSON: That's how you used to talk, oh.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: So it's a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a mistake?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes.  I could have explained that I was secretary general of the branch.

CHAIRPERSON: And the money was needed in order to run such a big organisation, that is the ANC?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is why I requested that I should explain.

CHAIRPERSON: No I am just looking at the words as they stand, first of all let's get the wording clear, that's correct isn't it, as it is written?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: The statement is true as it is written.  To say to run such a big organisation, yes it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And the big organisation that you are talking about is the organisation of which you were the secretary general?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: No that is not the organisation that I was talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what it says here.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes I understand that it appears there, that is why I requested that I should explain my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please explain, as briefly as possible.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: As you see clearly that I was, I am not - I was, as I was shows that I - as I was the secretary general of the ANC there is a need for fund-raising to have telephones or logistics for information services.  It gives you the picture of the experience that I had whilst I was the secretary of the ANC branch I know what was needed for fund-raising and again to run the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody reading this document won't understand it in that sense.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: The way I explain it is the idea I have as I am the writer of that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I mean you have written a very lengthy statement which shows that you are a learned man, you don't have difficulty with the English language.  You may have difficulty with Afrikaans but not with the English language.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is to say you need to understand that those are mistakes because this is not my mother tongue.

CHAIRPERSON: No but anybody reading this and the lengthy statements you have made  ...(intervention)

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: It will depend how do I explain this, I will explain it the way - the explanation needs to be revealed from me...

CHAIRPERSON: No why must it be revealed because it is self-explanatory here.  It says you are a member of the secretary - you are the secretary general of the ANC.  "I understood that money was needed in order to run such a big organisation..."
and all this is written years after you had left the ANC.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is why I am explaining that as I was, I am not saying I was, please don't forget that "as I was".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but the talking of fund-raising, you use the word fund-raising.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I have used the term, what is your question in that case?

CHAIRPERSON: My question is on a plain reading of this document, when I first read this document and I read your lengthy statement I formed the impression that you are a very articulate man, capable of expressing his thoughts very clearly, and when I first read this I thought well here is a man who is a secretary general of the ANC and this is what he is doing on behalf of the ANC.  And only when you gave your evidence today when you said that you had defected from the ANC some time before you wrote this document, you wrote this document in 1996 and you had already defected from the ANC in that time.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Which document are you referring to that I have written it in 1996?

CHAIRPERSON: I am referring to that (microphone not switched on)

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Do you call the application the document?

CHAIRPERSON: (The speaker's microphone is not activated Sir).  The annexure to your application.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mohapi didn't you write a document which you attached to your application reading
"My points while I want to be amnestified or rather indemnified...."
which is part of the application and you wanted us to consider that document together with the application form which you were required to complete?  Now why are you saying what document is the Chairperson referring to?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: What the Chairperson is saying I don't understand him clearly what he was saying.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the difficulty, am I using big words in English or am I using simple words?