Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 2000-02-04

MR GONYA: I did a course in Oudtshoorn in Mortar Platoon, so I was under the Mortar Platoon Branch there in the Ciskei Battalion.

MR SMITH: Have you ever fired a grenade launcher in a battle situation, except for training?  Did you at any stage fire it at any target before this incident?

MR GONYA: Before this incident, I did not use that, I did not fire with it because that is why I did not want to shoot directly to the target or to the crowd because I wanted to shoot on the ground, I did not want to shoot directly at them.

MR SMITH: Now you said that van der Bank said if the first order, the people in the lead of this group passed a certain tree he should be informed about it, did you hear this on the radio communication?

MR GONYA: I heard it from a radio when he was talking to Col Mkosana.

MR SMITH: Did you hear Mkosana reporting to van der Bank that the crowd were shooting or that shots were being fired at your position?

MR GONYA: No, the people that were in front of us, there was no shooting coming from those people, from that crowd.

MR SMITH: Now, ... (intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Smith.  Yes, but the question was, did you hear Mr Mkosana reporting to van der Bank that there had been some shooting from the crowd?  Did you hear that report from Mkosana to van der Bank?

MR GONYA: No, I did not hear him.

ADV SANDI: How far were you from Mr Mkosana to be able to hear the conversation between himself and then Mr van der Bank?

MR GONYA: I was sitting, he was on the front seat and I was sitting on the back seat.  I was sitting on the seat that was behind him.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Smith.

MR SMITH: Thank you.  When you fired, did you shoot directly into the ground or did you shoot into the crowd?

MR GONYA: I was pointing on the ground, I was shooting on the ground, not directly to the crowd.

MR SMITH: Now ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Are you moving onto something else?

MR SMITH: No, I'm ... When these grenades are fired, is there a lot of noise from the launcher?  Would there be a lot of noise inside the Buffel if you fire these grenades from inside the Buffel?

MR GONYA: When you are shooting, the noise is not - the noise is where it lands, where it explodes, not with the launcher itself.

MR SMITH: Now, was there a Major Zulu in that troop carrier, in the Buffel that you were in?

MR GONYA: Yes, Maj Zulu was there.

MR SMITH: Did he speak to you about your firing of the launcher?

MR GONYA: I did not hear him saying anything.

MR SMITH: And did anybody speak to you afterwards, the following day or at any time to say that you were wrong to have fired that grenade launcher?

MR GONYA: No.

MR SMITH: Do you have any idea why you were not called to the Internal Board of Inquiry to give evidence?

MR GONYA: No.

MR SMITH: Were you still at the same base where you were prior to the incident at the time that the Inquiry was held in October 92?

MR GONYA: That is correct.

MR SMITH: And you also - were you in a position to observe the crowd as they were approaching?

MR GONYA: Yes, I could see them clearly.

MR SMITH: And you made a statement to say that they were not armed.  Can we assume that you did not see any of them carrying weapons in their hands, firearms?

MR GONYA: No, I did not see them carrying weapons or firearms.

MR SMITH: That is all, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SMITH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Smith.  Mr Koopedi, any questions?

MR KOOPEDI: Just one question Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Gonya, you say you did not hear or see anyone shooting in your direction, is that correct?

MR GONYA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, if you co-applicant, Mr Mkosana, if he said to van der Bank that:  "We are being shot at", would he have been lying, in your opinion?

MR GONYA: On our side, where we were deployed, I did not see anybody with a firearm, unless maybe on the other side, the Parliament side, we could not see on that side and the shots started from the Parliament side because there was a rifleman, a soldier, who fell down that side.  I'm not sure about the surname of that guy.

MR KOOPEDI: My question is, in as far as the people who were in your immediate vicinity were concerned, which would include Mr Mkosana, if any one of those people said:  "We are being shot at", would this person be telling the truth?

MR GONYA: No, he would not be telling the truth.  We were not being shot at.

MR KOOPEDI: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.  Mr du Plessis, have you got any questions?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Gonya, prior to your testimony today, Mr Gonya, you were sworn in, you took the oath, is that correct?

MR GONYA: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you swore that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, is that correct?

MR GONYA: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: You've indicated in your evidence-in-chief that when you were given the instructions to deploy and this 40 mm rocket launcher or grenade launcher was given to you, it was given to you under the clear instructions that you would receive your instructions from the Colonel, Col Mkosana, is that correct?

MR GONYA: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr du Plessis.  Who gave this grenade launcher to you?

MR GONYA: We were given those grenade launchers by the storeman for all the companies, so the rocket launcher was placed in Col Mkosana's vehicle, so I was told that I have to be in that vehicle, because I would be patrolling with that grenade launcher.

ADV SANDI: ... the senior officers from the army, who was there when these weapons were given to you?

MR GONYA: Col Mkosana was there and Maj Mbina was there.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now you've testified in your evidence-in-chief that according to yourself, that there were three commands given by Col Mkosana, namely to fire, but at the first two the troops didn't react to that command order, is that correct?

MR GONYA: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: It was only on the third command when he started shouting and screaming on you, that the troops indeed started to fire, is that correct?

MR GONYA: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Gonya, you also in your application, or reply to me - I'll come to that now.  I seem to miss in your evidence in total where did Col Mkosana ever instruct you in person to deploy the rocket launcher, on your own version, Sir?  Nowhere here is it stated in your evidence-in-chief that at any specific time, that you were in person instructed.  Can you comment on that?

MR GONYA: What I heard was that we must fire.  There was that order that we must fire and then when I was shooting, I used that rocket launcher.

MR DU PLESSIS: Are you sure in your mind today that the order that was given to the soldiers by Col Mkosana, was directed at yourself as well?

MR GONYA: Yes, we were all given the same order, because I was not told that as I was using this grenade launcher, I would be given a specific time to shoot or to use it.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Gonya, you have undergone specific training at Oudtshoorn military base in the use of this weapon, is that correct?

MR GONYA: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now during this training, was it ever conveyed or indicated to you as an operator of this piece of equipment, that there would be different orders concerning the deployment of this specific weapon in question, to the orders that would be given to a rifleman?

MR GONYA: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Of course, Sir.  We work on the presumption and bear with me a minute, that if we've got the first line of defence and certain people are deployed with R4 rifles, certain people are deployed with rocket launchers, that there would be a different order that would be instructed, or issued, when each and every type of firearm would be used, that's correct.