Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I would say there was another meeting that was called at Mfayela's house.  Mfayela was present, ...[indistinct] and the station commander was present.  I did not know his name, and Captain Hlengwa and Pa(?) was in attendance as well and myself.  We planned there properly that we should ...[indistinct], Million Meyiwa should be killed.  He was a leader of ANC at Somkomo.
	He should be arrested after he's been killed and be disposed of in some place that SAP is patrolling or known to be patrolling often.  That's how he should be discovered.  We shouldn't be suspected in any way to have done this.  This would be protecting us if we executed the way we planned.  This is what I know inasfar as that plan is concerned, that Meyiwa the ANC leader at Somkomo area there was a plan to kill him.  
	In November 6 I was arrested by Mabanga and I was kept in custody and they wanted the firearms that were in my possession as I was there in the cell whilst the matter was investigated.  It was sometime in December that I heard that Meyiwa passed away.  I was told by one of the police there at Ndwedwe.  I'm trying to recall the name, the SAP.  His name is Mgwane and he is the one who gave me this information or the report that the man has been killed already.
	Mbanga assaulted me and other police as well, wanting the guns that were in my possession.  I appeared in the Court of law and I was told that I had been arrested and my charge, I was charged for robbery.  They lied so much at Court and that's what me to be convicted because I'd already noted that there were other police who were using the state's money.
	When the secretary or the clerk was short, that was because of the police, because I was there and I was sent to go and fetch some money.  The police who shot the clerk were arrested and I was arrested as well and I was asked to submit a statement. I was with my girlfriend who was coming from Ntombela's area. ...[intervention]

MR LAX: With regard to that matter that you were arrested for, you aren't applying for amnesty for that are you?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I'm just trying to explain.  I have to explain that I have been involved in so many many things although I'm not asking for amnesty inasfar as that is concerned.  It's a criminal matter of course, it's obvious but I'm trying to tell you how much I've gone through and you should know who is sitting in front of you.

MR LAX: If you can just hear us, that's ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We have read your affidavit.

MR LAX: We know that's in the papers but we would like to try and save a bit of time and not necessarily traverse that thing if it's not directly relevant to our application.

MR MCHUNU: But perhaps, Mr Chairman, I think there are two incidences of robbery here, there's ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This is the pension payout robbery he's referring to now, yes.

MR MCHUNU: That's correct.  I thought he's directly referring to that now.

MR LAX: You see, Mr Mchunu, you can maybe address us if you think it's crucially relevant to his application but from our looking at it it doesn't appear to be so and we would much more profitably deal, use this time to deal with other things that are relevant to the application.

MR MCHUNU: Point taken.
	Mr Gwamanda, if I may just take you back just a little bit to the attempt to assassinate Mr Matthew Phosa, the first point around which your application is based.  I understand that it did not go through.  Were you at any stage informed as to why it could not go ahead?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, I was not informed.  I was not informed subsequently.  As I look into that there is something that you need to understand here, especially Matthew Phosa's attorney.  I will ask him to pay attention to this.
	You see I am given limitations here by the judge, the judge keeps telling me I am out of order.  You see
I have so many scratches or scars around my arms, people trying to kill me in prison whilst I'm asleep at night.  I'm trying to say all these things to the Commission but the judge keeps reprimanding me ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda please, we hear what you but we're here to listen to an application in respect of specific events.  We don't want to restrict you unnecessarily but we can't hear your whole life history regarding matters that are not relevant to the application.  All we ask is that you stick to matters relevant to the application.
	Now Mr Mchunu has asked you about the assassination, the planned assassination attempt on Mr Phosa, now if you could just answer the question we would appreciate that.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I hear that very well, Chairman.  I'm trying to explain now inasfar as Matthew Phosa's issue is concerned.
	I cannot expatiate much here about other activities that were going on in Mpumalanga that were being planned by the AWB Boers.  There were so many of them but I don't have time or an opportunity to lay this before the Commission, so this restricts me a great deal. 
	I'm trying to say to Matthew Phosa I am sorry, I was instructed to kill him.  I was indeed going to instruct(?) him because the AWB was in my company.  I won't sit here and lie and say I wasn't anyway going to shoot Matthew Phosa but I was.  That I should accept but the Committee is restricting me in saying other things like my wife and girlfriends but see I cannot talk about such things because of time constraints.

MR MCHUNU: There are incidents here that I've been able to pick up from your evidence, there are seven points or sorry, six points.  Sorry, Mr Chairman.  There are six points in all around which your application is based.  The first one is an aborted attempt to assassinate Matthew Phosa.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Number two is an assault on the school teacher, Mr Cele.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Number three, an attack on young men aged about 10 at Nompeto.  Number four, an attack on plus minus seven males at Mona Lisa.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Which happened about the same day as the third incident.  Number five, an attack on the taxi owner, Mr Gumede.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: And lastly, an attack on an unknown male at Somkomo.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Could you please tell this Commission if at any stage you were arrested or charged in respect of any of these incidents?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I was arrested for murder and robbery.  On the 6th I was arrested but look at so many cases that I have and I was not arrested for any of those.  I was only arrested for my car and I was stabbed and I don't even have a house now.  Not even one of those.  This is why I'm appearing here, to ask for amnesty for these deeds.

MR MCHUNU: ...[inaudible] or brought to Court in respect of all these incidents?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, no-one was arrested for these, wherever they are they are so comfortable and happy with themselves.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MCHUNU

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
	Mr Mpshe, I notice the applicant mentioned the name of a person who I don't think the name appears in the affidavit, the station commander of the police station one, Hlengwa.  It will be necessary to give him a notice as being an implicated person in terms of, is it Section 30 or 34?  Yes, Section 30.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja, that will be done, Mr Chairman, it will be Section 30.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Section 30, thank you.
	Mr Mukadam, do you have any questions to ask to the witness?

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, we've arranged ...[end of tape].

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.  Mr Falconer, do you have any questions to ask the witness?