Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-15

MR PANDAY: As Mr Chairperson pleases.  Sorry and may I just say that I think it is important to establish whether his membership of the ANC has been contested, it seems to me it wasn't in the papers.
	And Mr Mafu, when did you return to the Port Shepstone area?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I first returned in 1990.

MR PANDAY: And when you returned in 1990 who were you under, who was your leader?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: It was Cyril Shezi and Doctor Kweli in the Port Shepstone area.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who was it?

MR PANDAY: Doctor Kweli from what I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Well before we go on can I just clarify something which I may have missed earlier, did you say you first went to the Transkei in 1987?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: For training as a member of uMkhonto?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But in the statement that you've given us today you said you became a member of the ANC in 1988 which is correct?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Must have been a mistake, I first joined the ANC in 1985 but I only joined MK in 1988.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairperson, I did not want to interject, now that he's given the answer may I just place on record that my assistant in formulating this statement had intended that sentence to mean that he became a member of Operation Vula a wing of the MK in 1988 as opposed to joining the ANC in 1988.  Forgive the ambiguity?
	Mr Mafu, you said you were under Mr Shezi and Kweli?  Now who identified Mr Mkhize, the deceased, as a legitimate target?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: It was Cyril as our commander who mentioned this in a meeting.

MR PANDAY: Now is that Cyril Shezi you refer to?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now has your attorney showed you the statement by Cyril Shezi?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Yes I did see that.

MR PANDAY: And I would refer you to paragraph 6, I want to read it out to you.  Mr Shezi in paragraph 6 states the following, he says that
"I wish to further state that I knew the late Ndukuzepi Mkhize as a person who was respected in the community especially by adults that used to visit my stepfather, Mr Mabu Mjla at home."
Now isn't that in total contradiction to what you say ...(indistinct)  as I did find is in Mr Mkhize's target?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I do not see any contradiction there because he is only referring to the relationship between his father and the deceased not about the incident itself.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well perhaps paragraph 7 then?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Yes, let me then read paragraph 7 for you.  Paragraph 7 says
"Whilst they deny any involvement in giving orders or ...(indistinct) the killing of Mr Mkhize, I'd also like to give the following clarity with regards to the political situation."
Now firstly, Mr Shezi makes it known that this man was a respected man.  He thereafter distances himself from ...(indistinct) any killing.  You on the other hand say the total opposite.  Now if Mr Shezi was your leader why do you think now he says the total opposite of what you say?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I wouldn't know where he gets that from because we worked very closely together but I have not seen him for a long time and we have not been in contact so I'm not in a position to say why is saying whatever he has written there.

MR PANDAY: When you worked together with Mr Shezi what was your relationship with him in the organisation?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: We related as well as I did with other comrades in the ANC.  I am not in a position to say whether I was closer to him than to other comrades because we were all working together.

MR PANDAY: Now what sort of information was related to Shezi, as you say, to identify the deceased as the legitimate target?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: He was informed that the deceased had attempted to stab me with an assegai on three occasions before.  He had come to my room as well and on that occasion he was with his stepfather, with Mr Shezi's stepfather and they had damaged property at my home and harassed my wife and children as well as the fact that when comrades were attacked or injured he was ...(indistinct) implicated.

MR PANDAY: The deceased stabbed you with an assegai, damaged your property and harassed you?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: He did not stab me but he attempted to do so but unfortunately I fled.  On the occasion that they came to my house he was in the company of other IFP members.  Even Cyril's stepfather was present and at that time he was an Induna.

MR DEHAL: Sorry Mr Chairperson, within the purview of cross-examination that proposition would be unfair.  It does not put it totally as he said it earlier, he also said that when comrades were attacked and injured he, the deceased, was always implicated.

MR PANDAY: Objection Mr Chairperson, this is under cross-examination.  We're trying to establish what sort of information was relayed to the head, Mr Shezi.  Now under cross-examination the applicant has introduced evidence to the effect that he was also attacked and this was really to Mkhize.  Now we're merely going on and that will be followed by the next question, if Mr Chairperson will allow me to pursue that line of questioning?

MR DEHAL: All I am saying is that having got the answer he then repeats, Mr Panday then repeats "so you say" and then he repeats only two of the three propositions in answer, he repeats the first part saying "so you say the deceased stabbed you about three times" and he damaged property at your house but he does not say the last part and in fairness to this witness you've got to repeat that last part as well where he says comrades were generally attacked and injured and this deceased was always implicated.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps he would be coming to that one still?

MR PANDAY: Well maybe before I continue, what was the name of Mr Shezi's stepfather?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: His name is Shede.

MR PANDAY: And the surname?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: He was Shede Mavundla.

MR PANDAY: Now you also mentioned that other comrades were attacked by deceased, is that correct?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Please repeat that question?

MR PANDAY: You also mentioned in your evidence that other comrades were attacked by the deceased, is that correct?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Now that is not completely correct.  The deceased was implicated in the attack of comrades.  He had something to do with their attacks.

MR PANDAY: Now when you consulted with your attorney and you drafted Exhibit A, that is the statement you handed in today, why did you not tell your attorney that the deceased also attacked you and your family?

MR DEHAL: Sorry Mr Chairperson, he certainly told me that, I didn't include it in the statement, it was drafted last night, he told me that day.  I was actually conferring with my assistant on and on, we were trying to establish what aspects we should lead him on.  This is an aspect I did not ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: With due respect, Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

MR DEHAL: Sorry can I just finish?  I'm placing on record that it was honestly told to me and I am saying that I did not deal with it.

MR PANDAY: No Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether the attorney for the applicant will be giving evidence as to whether the evidence now elicited under cross-examination was in fact what he was told now, it's going to place the attorney in - we'd rather hear the answer from the applicant as to why or did he tell the attorney or not and that would place us in a better position to establish what really took place and if he did, to answer that Chairperson quite simply, you say yes or no?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: I did tell my attorney but it appeared that I had to inform him of that yesterday so that it would be incorporated into my statement.

MR PANDAY: When did you inform your attorney of that?

MAFANDO JOKONIA MAFU: Today when we had discussions.