Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-17

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

MR NOLTE: Mr Chairman, no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOLTE

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Du Preez, before you could go to Swaziland, was there any decision that Ms Ndwandwe would be killed if she didn't cooperate?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember such a pertinent decision.

MR NGUBANE: Was there any practise prior to your going to Swaziland that any person who didn't cooperate to become an informer, would be killed as a matter of course?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Was there a decision at any stage that any person who did not want to cooperate as an informer, would be killed, that was taken in your presence and perhaps with your participation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: At any time, the time I spent at the Security Branch or are you talking about Ndwandwe specifically?

MR NGUBANE: Yes, the time you spent at the Security Branch, was it ever taken as a principle that anyone who didn't cooperate with you, would be eliminated?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairman, each case was dealt with on its own merit.

MR NGUBANE: So when you went to Swaziland for the kidnap of Ndwandwe, your aim was to kidnap her and convert her to be an informer, is that correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct yes.

MR NGUBANE: And did you discuss when and where you were going to do this, to convert her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, we did discuss it.

MR NGUBANE: Where was that process going to be done?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember.

MR NGUBANE: Did you gain the impression that she was going to be brought back into South Africa, and then be converted in the offices maybe of C.R. Swart or in Maritzburg, or what was your impression?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, the plan was very clear.  We would take her to a house of safety at the border post, and from there, we would go to Pietermaritzburg.

MR NGUBANE: So when you left South Africa, your plan was clear, kidnap her from Swaziland, bring her to the border post and then take her to Pietermaritzburg, is that your evidence?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct yes.

MR NGUBANE: There was no plan that she would be taken to the border post, converted and brought back to Swaziland?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: If she were recruited as an informant, it would have been the process, yes.

MR NGUBANE: What would be the purpose of bringing her to Maritzburg?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, if she were to be recruited, we would have sent her back to Swaziland.  If we did not recruit her, we would have taken her to Pietermaritzburg.  That was the plan.

MR NGUBANE: So your evidence earlier on that you didn't, you can't recall where she was going to be converted as an informer, is incorrect?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I am not sure what your question is.

MR NGUBANE: I heard your evidence as being that you can't recall where the process of converting her was going to take place.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, we would have tried to recruit her after the abduction in Swaziland or during the abduction in Swaziland.  How long this process would take, we could not have decided that beforehand.

MR NGUBANE: When she was taken the following day from the border post to Maritzburg, what was created in your mind, what did you think was happening?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, at that stage I haven't seen or did not know a lot about Ndwandwe, I did not form an opinion.

MR NGUBANE: You were just happy about taking her to Pietermaritzburg?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.  At that stage Steyn, Botha and Taylor in control.

MR NGUBANE: Did you enquire why she was being taken to Maritzburg?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was part of the plan, yes.

MR NGUBANE: Well, did you enquire why she was being taken to Maritzburg?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, I did not.

MR MALAN: If I understand you correctly, then the plan or part of the plan was to take her to Pietermaritzburg and that was for the elimination, because if you were to turn her, according to your evidence, you would take her back across the border.
	I think the question is really when Pietermaritzburg came in, was it part of the implementation or the decision on the basis that she will not be recruited and that she must be eliminated?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, at this stage I cannot say when it became clear to me.  I think it only became clear tome that afternoon in Pietermaritzburg, that she will be eliminated.

MR MALAN: Mr Du Preez, Mr Ngubane asked you what was the plan and you then explained the plan concerning taking her across the border, and if she is not recruited, her elimination, and when he asked you if this was the decision, you then said no, if she cooperated, she would have been taken immediately across the border, back into Swaziland.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: In other words it would have been another plan that you would have implemented, is that not correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, yes.

MR MALAN: The question is, the execution of the plan where she will not be taken back, but will be taken to Pietermaritzburg, must that then be seen as a confirmation of an execution of the first plan, the moment when she was taken to Pietermaritzburg?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  I won't pursue with that point.  Why did you have to use a false passport to go to Swaziland?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I had a false passport and I usually used it when I went to Swaziland.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, why?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: To cover up the activities of the Security Branch, so that other people cannot see that we are operating there.

MR NGUBANE: Well, if you say other people, who do you  mean?  Who was going to get into these affairs and know that you are the Security people who are doing dirty works?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I am not sure what you mean with dirty works?

MR NGUBANE: Well, you could have used your ordinary passport, go to Swaziland and come back.  I still don't follow the reason why you had to use a false passport.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, we worked with informants and a lot of the work we did, was undercover.

MR NGUBANE: Did you travel in false number plates, registration plates?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did, yes.

MR NGUBANE: The vehicles that you used when you abducted Ndwandwe, did they have false registration number plates?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, they did have false number plates.

MR NGUBANE: And you did that for the purposes of cover up, is that correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Coming to the question of a baby, you say that you were not aware that she was breastfeeding, is that correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did she at any stage complain to you that she had left a baby for quite some time and she wanted to see the baby?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: She did mention that she had a child, yes.

MR NGUBANE: And was it in the presence of Mr Botha when she mentioned this?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember if Botha was there.

MR NGUBANE: At what stage did she mention that she had a baby, in Maritzburg or the border?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, I knew she had a child.