Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR MASUPA: I will briefly explain to this Committee about Mr Ndlovu.  He grew up at his mother's place, that is in the Sotho section and they moved to our area and he came to be our neighbours.

MR BLACK: When was ...

MR MASUPA: He didn't go to school at that time.

MR BLACK: Okay, but now how old - when - you must be a bit, we don't know the times and the dates or the year you are talking about.  When was this, in the same year?

MR MASUPA: They arrived in 1985 to be our neighbours, that is Phineas Ndlovu.

MR BLACK: And his mother?

MR MASUPA: Yes.

MR BLACK: Was he attending school then?

MR MASUPA: No, he was not schooling.

MR BLACK: Did he attend school at any time after 1985?

MR MASUPA: After 1985, there were riots until in 1987 when they were arrested.

MR BLACK: Yes ... (tape ends) and I understand Hendrik Masupa who has been mentioned, is he - he is your younger brother, is that so?

MR MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Did he sleep at that house?

MR MASUPA: No, it was years of not sleeping at home.

MR BLACK: And we are talking about the house that was burnt down now.  And where did he sleep?

MR MASUPA: He used to sleep at my grandfather's shop.

MR BLACK: Is this the shopping complex which was referred to earlier on in the evidence of Mr Ndlovu?

MR MASUPA: That is correct, that is the same store Sir.

MR BLACK: Right, and as far as, if I may refer to him as Hendrik, is concerned, was he attending school?

MR MASUPA: Yes, he was schooling.

MR BLACK: What standard was he in at the time this happened?

MR MASUPA: He was doing standard 8.

MR BLACK: And what school was he attending?

MR MASUPA: Davey Senior Secondary School.

MR BLACK: Okay.  As far as Phineas Ndlovu and his family is concerned, was there any difficulties or problems between your family and his family?

MR MASUPA: There were not problems at all between the two families.

MR BLACK: Was there any reason whatsoever to your knowledge why Mr Ndlovu and his friends arrived at your house, your mother's house and set it alight with everyone inside?

MR MASUPA: I do not bear any knowledge up to now, Sir.

MR BLACK: They did not give you any reasons when they
entered the house?

MR MASUPA: No Sir.

MR BLACK: And your knowledge of Mr Phineas Ndlovu's activities, he claims that he was a scholar and that he also was a comrade.  What is your knowledge of his activities in that area?

MR MASUPA: I can testify before this Committee that he was not schooling.  The comradeship that he referred to was the comradeship of robbing people, of stealing cars from people, of taking food from the delivery vans in the township.  That he was a comrade, a real comrade, I do not want to testify to that effect.

MR BLACK: What do you mean by that, was he regarded, was he regarded, was he considered in the community to be a comrade?

MR MASUPA: No Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: What do you mean by comrade?

MR MASUPA: A comrade is a person involved in politics.  That is my understanding.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Masupa, were comrades in your area not involved in stopping delivery trucks?

MR MASUPA: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you know anything about a people's court?

MR MASUPA: There is nothing I know about the people's court, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: During those days, everybody was almost politically active, wasn't it so?  And your sister Mantha
was also a comrade and a political activist?

MR MASUPA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was the leader of Mantha and her comrades' group?

MR MASUPA: I know a person called Aubrey.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know him as the leader of Mantha's group?

MR MASUPA: I know him very well, he used to frequent our home.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he the leader of Mantha's group?  Was he connected with the group that Mantha associated with, the comrades?

MR MASUPA: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he a scholar?

MR MASUPA: Yes, he was also at Davey Senior Secondary School.

ADV DE JAGER: The people - on entering the house - was there only one speaker or did both of them or more of the people entering the house, address you and speak out?

MR MASUPA: I couldn't understand, I couldn't hear well what they said, but there was talking in the kitchen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Masupa, how soon after you had heard people coming into the kitchen, did you go to the kitchen to join them?

MR MASUPA: I went to the kitchen when the deceased, Mantha, said we are smelling petrol.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it after some time or was it immediately after you had heard people coming into the kitchen?

MR MASUPA: That was after they called her name, Mantha.

JUDGE WILSON: Was the talking in the kitchen before they called Mantha's name?

MR MASUPA: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, when did it happen - the talking, you said there was talking in the kitchen but you couldn't hear what they said.

MR MASUPA: The called Mantha, Mantha went to the kitchen and she said to them Vusi, what do you want, talk and she said I am smelling petrol.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but a moment you said to us I could not hear well what they said, but there was talking in the kitchen.  What did you mean by that?

MR MASUPA: I mean they were talking, but they were not shouting.  There was no noise.

JUDGE WILSON: When were they talking?

MR MASUPA: They came into the house, they called Mantha, she went to the kitchen.

JUDGE WILSON: And they talked then, did they?

MR MASUPA: It means they talked to her because she replied.  Because she went on to say I am smelling petrol.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was your mother present when Mantha went to the kitchen, was she there?

MR MASUPA: Yes, she was in the kitchen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you still want to lead Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Yes, I thought there was still ... Mr Masupa, as far as Mr Ndlovu is concerned, his activities, you say you know him well, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: I know him very well.

MR BLACK: Alright.  Do you know anything - did you know Mr Sibisi?

MR MASUPA: Yes, I know Mr Sibisi.

MR BLACK: Now, how do you know him?

MR MASUPA: He was staying at the next street from my
grandfather's shop and he had a car.

MR BLACK: Yes, and what do you know about that now?  Did Mr Ndlovu know Mr Sibisi, do you know anything about it, could you please just tell us what ...

MR MASUPA: Mr Phineas Ndlovu and them were troubling Mr Sibisi because he had a car.  They always wanted to use his car, if there was anything they wanted to do, they would go to him and he couldn't bear it any more.  He said I am leaving this area, these boys are troubling me every time they come to my place and they take my car with force.

MR CURRIN: Sorry Mr Chairman, is this not hearsay evidence and what is its relevance?  If it is hearsay, I do object to it.  Are you going to call Mr Sibisi to say that this is what he has been saying?

MR BLACK: It is not hearsay in the sense that Mr Sibisi told him, told him and this is - no ...

JUDGE WILSON: Isn't hearsay clearly what somebody tells you?

MR CURRIN: It is hearsay in the sense of what allegedly these people did, but he, Sibisi gave him a reason for leaving the area.  That is it, whether it is true or not, it is immaterial.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Currin, since we've practised, I believe the Act has been changed.  Hearsay evidence can be allowed, whether is has got any value, that is another thing.

MR CURRIN: Just in the spirit of the nature of cross-examination for the purposes of this Committee, I would suggest that maybe this evidence is really not relevant.

MR BLACK: Well, I don't want to get embroiled at this stage.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I think it is finished now hasn't it, so let's go on.

MR BLACK: Now you heard Mr Ndlovu testify yesterday, he addressed you and the family at length asking for forgiveness for what he had done.  What is your attitude
towards, what do you feel about that?