Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I gave Darkie Chonco.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, didn't you say (indistinct), you didn't say that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Please speak up and slowly so that we can hear.  Don't swallow your last words.

MR LOWIES: Was that the only loot that you took on the night of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: I am not asking what was burnt, I am talking about what you took, do you understand the difference?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I am saying yes, those are the only things that I stole from Boipatong, the video and the TV set.

MR LOWIES: You didn't steal money?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did take money, yes, I did take money.

MR LOWIES: So why didn't you tell us initially about that as well, I asked you specifically was that all and you said yes.  Now you say you did take money, what is the truth?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not get you well, I did not take the money to be burnt as well, I only submitted the video and the TV set to be burnt, not the money.

MR LOWIES: Why are you implicating Darkie Chonco, have you got a quarrel with him?

CHAIRPERSON: Just wait a minute.  Just repeat the answer that you have just given slowly.  You had been asked why didn't you mention that you also stole money, what was your response, slowly?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He asked me what things I handed over to be burnt at the hostel, things that I took from the hostel, from Boipatong, I said I took the video, a video and a TV.  He did not ask me about money.  Had he asked me about that, I would have indicated that I could not have taken the money to be burnt, I had used that for, that was to be used for buying ...

CHAIRPERSON: So you say that he only asked you about things that were burnt?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He asked me what goods I had stolen from Boipatong and I said I took a  video as well as a TV set, and he asked me to whom  I gave these goods to be burnt and I indicated that I gave them to Darkie Chonco to be burnt.  He did not ask me about money, yes, I did take the money of course.

CHAIRPERSON: He asked you what did you give to Chonco and you said it was a TV and a video?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then he asked you were these the only things that you stole from Boipatong.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he did ask me that.

CHAIRPERSON: And your answer was "yes."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, but yes, I also took money actually.  That is how I answered, but I also took money.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I ask you a question, why didn't you mention the money as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not get him well, I did not get him well, sometimes I have a problem  with the headset.  I could not have burnt the money, the only things that I gave to Darkie was the TV and the video to be burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, if you have a problem with the headset, let us know.  Do you want that to be replaced, does it give you a problem?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did indicate that I don't receive well, my reception is not quite good.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, good we please have another headset?

MR LAX: If you just put that in the front, further forward, that should do it.  It is not really comfortable ...

MS TANZER: No, the headset is broken.

MR LAX: Can you hear?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Lowies, I don't remember your question, was it saying what loot did you steal at Boipatong, or what goods did you steal in Boipatong?

MR LOWIES: I think I said goods.

MR SIBANYONI: Goods?

MR LOWIES: Yes.  I don't know, I can't ...

MR LAX: I have written the word items here, that is what it was translated.

MR LOWIES: It is more my style.  Mr Nosenga, then I specifically asked you, I am not just asking about items that were supposed to be burnt and I said to you, do you understand the difference between items that were supposed to be burnt and anything else and you said yes.  I specifically asked you whether you understood what I am asking you.  I drew a difference, a distinction, why did you answer "yes"?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not get your question very well.  Will you please distinguish between your questions.

MR LOWIES: I don't follow your problem, what do you want me to do?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The question that you are asking me.

MR LOWIES: I specifically asked you and I stated to you Mr Nosenga, I am not just talking about items that were supposed to be burnt, I am talking about everything else, was that all that you took, and you said yes.  I asked you did you understand the distinction and you said yes.  That was the nature of my question.  Where could the confusion come in?

CHAIRPERSON: But he has told us that he didn't understand the question, his headphones were not clear, he couldn't hear the Interpreter.

MR LOWIES: Regarding your headphones that were not clear, I specifically heard you saying that you already complained about the headset that was not working, when did you complain about that because nobody heard you doing that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I indicated just now that my reception is poor and it is difficult to get the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation now, can you hear him, can you hear the Interpreter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it clear?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, isn't the truth the following, whenever you are in a corner, you blame either the Interpreter or the headset or whatever, but you do not want to admit that you are telling lies?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not correct.  If I don't understand, that is it, I don't understand.

MR LOWIES: Well, I want you to reflect on your answers pertaining to your knowledge of the Sotho language, because we are going to call Detective Sergeant Kuni who would be giving evidence that he translated a whole confession that you made, from Sotho to Afrikaans, in other words that he was speaking Sotho to you and that you responded in Sotho to him, in other words you can speak Sotho quite well.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that, I also speak Zulu at home.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, listen to the question.  If you don't understand it, let me know so that I can repeat the question.  What Counsel is saying to you is that he is going to call a Police Officer who translated a confession that you made, from Afrikaans into Sotho to you.  Do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you replied, you spoke to him in Sotho as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do understand that, he can call that person.  I don't know what he is talking about, my father is Zulu and I too speak the language.

CHAIRPERSON: So you deny that the confession was translated to you in Sotho?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I deny that.  I don't know where he gets that from.  I speak Zulu even in jail, they can go to Leeukop and ask the authorities there what language I speak, I don't know where it comes from.  They should go to my home as well and ask what language I speak, my mother is Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and you also deny that you spoke back to this Sergeant Kuni in Sotho?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I deny that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR LOWIES: Now regarding Mr Keswa, I have already put to you that Keswa was in custody physically on the 17th of June 1992.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say to you that I only saw Victor Keswa for the last time during the day of the 17th.

MR LOWIES: I want you to reflect, are you hundred percent sure on your version, Keswa was there on the 17th, you saw him, not necessarily going into Boipatong, but you saw him at the hostel, there is no ...