Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-05-03

MR MBHELE: Maybe you didn't hear me right here.  What I heard is that your brother was among the people who came and captured the three IFP members.  I can't remember whether it was at Posa's family or Zuma's family, but they said - Shilembe actually confirmed that he knew your brother, and we were told that he wasn't at home but we were told where he was.  We tried to call him and we drove towards the place where he was and we found him there.  He was wearing a black jacket.  I pointed a G3 at him.  I told him to get inside the boot and I said to him if he doesn't want to get inside the boot I was going to shoot him, but I didn't shoot him.  	Even though you may not trust me, but my God is my witness on this and I am telling the honest truth.  It's not easy for you to believe me because you've already lost your brother, but I didn't kill your brother.  I know it's difficult but the God above knows that I didn't take his life.

MR HLANGISA: Now I heard you saying that in the community people used to come to report other people to you.

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's so.

MR HLANGISA: Now how did you come to know about this, that my brother kidnapped other people?

MR MBHELE: Remember these people never used to come straight to me and report.  They would go to Mabiza and report these matters and Mabiza will call me.  This is one thing you should know clearly.

MR HLANGISA: You are a community member of that area?

MR MBHELE: Yes I am.  Therefore I think you know I was a tool, Beki Mkhize was using me as his tool.  He is now a leader there.

MR HLANGISA: You know that ANC members were not buried in that area?

MR MBHELE: Yes I know that.

MR HLANGISA: Now how come my brother was buried there if he wasn't an IFP?  You know that he was an IFP member and he was a card holder.  Even now his grave is there, it's still there in that area.  He was a member of the IFP, one of you.

MR MBHELE: Yes it is true he was a member even though one couldn't understand very well because other people who didn't belong to IFP used to be his friends or they would sit together and also three members of IFP were kidnapped and disappeared and killed.

MR HLANGISA: Yes you are telling the truth there.

MR MBHELE: When these boys or these IFP members were discovered your brother had died it is true but we heard about this before.

MR HLANGISA: I know the people you were with, now you are telling us that you were left alone there?  You even told us here that you were the one who pointed the gun at him.  No one did that.  You said he must get inside the boot or else you are going to shoot him and you did so.  His body was found with a gunshot.

MR MBHELE: It wasn't just me who had a gun.  Other people as well had guns.  You know that.

MR HLANGISA: No I don't know that.  All I know is that my brother didn't have a gun, he only had a spear and a stick.

MR MBHELE: Like I've explained I didn't kill your brother, other people did.  If I wanted to kill your brother I would have shot him but there were too many people there, so I thought that if I was going to shoot him there I was going to shoot other people.  Your brother's fault was to knock there and kidnap these three people.  When there was fire there in the veld, nearby veld, I wasn't even there.  That's when your brother was burnt.

MR HLANGISA: And these people who were burning him came back from that veld and you were still there, you saw them.

MR MBHELE: I left there, I went to a certain shop.

MR HLANGISA: What did you ask them when they came back from burning my brother?  You mentioned here that they took him to that nearby bush, what did they say to you?

MR MBHELE: No, I didn't ask them any question, no I didn't.  I didn't ask them any question.  I don't want to lie to you.

MR HLANGISA: But at the end you knew that he was killed and burnt.

MR MBHELE: Yes, I heard, because I also heard  gunfire.

MR HLANGISA: You also burnt his house and you also killed everything, the dogs, the chickens.  We were left with nothing.  We left the area, we ran away.

MR MBHELE: Let me just explain.  When they were burning the houses I wasn't there.  I never burnt a single house.

MR HLANGISA: The house was burnt, or rather the houses were burnt.  You were there when these things were happening.  You were staying there with us.  You saw these things and some of them you took part in doing.  I'm talking about my family's house.  You're asking forgiveness from me, therefore I'm talking about my family's house.

MR MBHELE: I'm asking for amnesty because I captured  your brother.  If I didn't capture  your brother then he wasn't going to be killed.

MR HLANGISA: Yes, I agree with you, I think you did kill my brother.

MR MBHELE: Yes, I agree.  That's why I'm asking for forgiveness from your family, everyone in your family.  I ask them to forgive me and I'm asking for forgiveness from the bottom of my heart.

MR HLANGISA: Who will compensate us for everything we've lost?  We used to stay together as a family.  My mother was the only breadwinner, taking care of us, all of us.  We didn't have a father.  We grew up very hard, under hardships and my father didn't even leave us anything.
	Why didn't you come to my family and tell us what my brother had done?  You were sent to my house to ask, to see if my brother was there, why didn't you explain all this to us, that you were looking for him so that he was going to be killed?  Why you were the only one there and why today you are the only one asking for amnesty for his, in connection with his murder.

MR MBHELE: I would like to apologise when it comes to that.  Other people won't come forward and ask for forgiveness.  I don't know.  And most of them they're outside, they're not in prisons and they don't want to tell the truth.

MR HLANGISA: Now let me tell you something.  We're still struggling to come to terms with this because we've lost so much.  His child is suffering now.  He doesn't even know the father because when the father died, he was only conceived two months.

MR MBHELE: Also you must also think of the three members of IFP who were killed because of your brother.  I'm asking you to look both sides of the story, don't just look at my side.  Look, what about your brother?  What your brother did, the family members of the three deceased are still crying.

MR HLANGISA: Can you mention one person who was with my brother when they went and captured these three members of IFP?

MR MBHELE: All I heard is that there were seven people and they were all armed.  And the person who told us said that the only person she can identify was your brother.  Therefore, that is why your brother was a target, or our first target.

MR HLANGISA: And where was the gun?  Where was the gun, because now you are telling us there were seven and they were armed?

MR MBHELE: Is there a single person in the community who was given a gun by me?  There isn't.  You know that, because I myself was given a gun by the chief and Mbhele(?) as well was given a gun.
	I would like you to tell this Committee the truth because you know the truth.  You mustn't tell this Committee that I was the one who knew everything, but if you can tell the truth because I think you know the actual truth.  Don't hide anything because there is  nothing that will happen to your life.  Now I would like you to tell this Committee the truth, so that the Committee leaves this place satisfied.  You are a community member of that area and you know that area very well and you know everything.  You must tell the truth about Mabiza.

MR HLANGISA: I didn't know that Mabiza was involved in this.  I didn't stay at home most of the time, I was working.  What I would like to ask you here, or for compensation is that my brother's child is taken care of and the houses and everything, because we didn't do anything to you to deserve what you did to us.