Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-14

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: From Friday, Saturday, Sunday we would do the patrol.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was this unit called?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: We called it Self Unit Defence Force.  We were the people who were protecting or defending the community in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you working at that time, in general?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, I was working.

CHAIRPERSON: Doing what?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I was working in Germiston at a manufacturing company, manufacturing fish and chips stoves in that particular company in Germiston.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you own a firearm?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, I didn't own one.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were on patrol, how would you patrol, would you arm yourself?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: We would carry knopkierries, not necessarily firearms, and sjambocks.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this the first operation that you went on to obtain firearms on the 10th of September 1993?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, that was not the first one.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have a firearm when you went on this venture?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, I did not have a firearm with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anybody in your group armed?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Not armed with firearms, but other weapons, not necessarily firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you armed?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I had a knife with me, a small one.

CHAIRPERSON: Now your instructions were to take firearms.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Your instructions and the intention of the operation was to obtain firearms only.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, that was our main intention.

CHAIRPERSON: No, was it your only intention?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, the only one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet the binoculars were taken by one of your colleagues.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, it was also obtained from that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Was a television not taken?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Keifas Kweniga attempted to take the television set, but left it outside.

CHAIRPERSON: So he did take it out of the house?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, he took it outside and we said he should leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?  Why were those items taken?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: He took from the dining-room and when we were leaving the room from which we took the firearms we realised that he had taken the TV set and we told him to leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: But why was it taken, and the binoculars?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I would not know what was going on in his mind.  That is why I told him to leave it because that's not the reason why we had gone there.

CHAIRPERSON: And the taking of the binoculars?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I only noticed the binoculars once we were in the vehicle.  You see those binoculars were a very small thing, they were not immediately observable when we were leaving the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give evidence in the trial?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember sometime during the investigation of that trial, you were asked where you got that one firearm?  Do you recall that?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: It is alleged, according to the evidence, that you said the firearm was obtained when you went to Balfour to get money, you got not get money but you got the firearm.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I do not recall saying that in court.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, it wasn't said that in Court.  Apparently when you were asked about it during the investigation of that trial, that is what you said.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, I was asked.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you say when you were asked?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I told them that we found firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: At the place, at the house near Delmas.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went to look for money and instead found firearms, is that what you told that person?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you were busy with that one white man in the bedroom and when you got back to the kitchen to your surprise you found the other white man lying on the floor bleeding.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You even made an attempt to assist him.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you feel sorry for this white man?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, I did because he was bleeding.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you then not agree with this killing or what?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, I did not agree with it.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not associate yourself with that?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: How?

CHAIRPERSON: You say you didn't agree with it, even afterwards you distanced yourself.

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, I did not agree with the killing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any intention to kill or stab that white man, not necessarily yourself, but did you have any intention that he should be stabbed in the first place?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, I did not have an intention that he be stabbed, but I was surprised when I came out of the room and noticed that he had been stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: When you people went there to that house, did you know that some of your colleagues were armed with knives?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I knew that they were in possession of knives.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen if there was resistance to the robbery?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: As for myself I was also in possession of a knife.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen if those people resisted the robbery?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I was of the opinion that we should grab them and tie them up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Just a few questions, Mr Chair.
	Did you know the victims before you went there?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: No, I was seeing them for the first time, I didn't know them.

MS THABETE: How did you target them?

INTERPRETER: May your question please be repeated.

MS THABETE: How did it come about that you decided to go to that house specifically?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: The reason why we went there is because Joseph Fani Nkosi is the one who knew where we could ...(end of tape)

MS THABETE: ... tell you how he knew that you'd find firearms in that house?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, he did explain.

MS THABETE: What did he say, how did he know?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: He had a family on that farm and his younger brother was apparently working on that farm and he apparently used to go to that white, or to that farm because his younger brother was working there.

MS THABETE: In your words, why was the deceased stabbed?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I would not know why, but according to his explanation he was making a noise, that is the deceased.

MS THABETE: ...(indistinct) the killing of Mr Joubert ...(indistinct) Jansen, how would you justify it politically?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I would say this can be explained by way of saying that the deceased died in the same house where they were robbed.

MS THABETE: So you didn't associate yourself - no, that's not what you said, you didn't approve of a killing, would you say you're responsible though for it?  Do you hold yourself responsible for the said killing?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I would not say this role that I played in the murder, because it was not our intention to kill anyone when we got there.

MS THABETE: My question is, I understand you went there to get firearms and you had no intentions to kill anyone nor to stab anyone, but nevertheless finally one of you did stab somebody, and I understand that you did not participate in any way in that stabbing, but would you say you're responsible for it?  Do you take responsibility for it because you've applied for amnesty for that murder?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: Yes, I am involved in the death of the person because I was in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) politically? ...(inaudible) when he was stabbed?  You never assisted in the stabbing, it wasn't supposed to happen as far as you're concerned, so why do you take responsibility for it?

MILTON BEKI MHLONGO: I am party to this because we were all together in that one same house.