Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: I don't know how much time we have to discuss the issue. You are quite correct. I think one of the problems we face as a country is the availability of weapons to many, many people, illegal weapons, and even in the instances where they are legal weapons, theft and loss of these weapons, the temptation to raid a house in order to look for weapons and so on, there's a pool there in saying even the legals, somebody else goes to try and access that pool. It's true there is a problem about too many weapons.
There is a problem about trade in illegal weapons throughout the region of Southern Africa. It's a serious problem, and in many instances they are really very cheap to buy. You have a problem of certain people among the licensing authorities with regard to weapons. Only last night, Chairperson, I had a meeting with the Minister of Safety and Security and some of his police officers and they were reporting about licensing of firearms to gangsters. I am saying problems among some of the licensing authorities. I am saying therefore it is correct that there are too many of these weapons around and the sources are many and various.
There was not a big massive distribution of weapons by the ANC or MK to ordinary cadres, there wasn't. We, as that violence from 1990 onwards was mounting one of the strongest demands that came from within the constituency of the ANC was arm the masses. Many of us sitting here had to do very stormy and rowdy and heated meetings contesting that, saying that there are no masses that are going to be armed. But it was a demand to say here we are, you people in the midst of all of this violence you decide to suspend armed action and therefore you demobilise or deactivate MK, and then here we are being killed, and where are the weapons, arm the masses so that the masses can defend themselves. As I say, that many of us sitting here participated in many public meetings where this demand was made very strongly and then we said no, there are no masses that are going to be armed because we are concerned about the consequences of arming everybody.
So I am not saying that members and supporters of the ANC did not gain access to weapons other than weapons that might have come directly from us. They may have and most certainly would have, but as a movement we resisted the notion of arming too many people.
When weapons were distributed by people from MK in the way that Ronnie Kasrils and his documents have explained, when those weapons were distributed they were in fact distributed to specific people. It was not like sort-of handing out sweets in the street, and clearly the people to whom those weapons would be given would be people that in your best judgement are people who have got the necessary political capacity and the discipline to handle those weapons properly. There wasn't a general distribution of that kind. I'm not saying that people did not gain access otherwise to these weapons.
I think you would notice Dr Boraine, if you looked at the local government campaign, '95 whenever, in the rallies leading up to those elections you would find a lot of young people in the rallies. After you passed that period I'd go around into meetings, one of the things that have struck me is the presence of older people, and part of the reason for that is of course you are campaigning for these elections, you are distributing leaflets, you are going mobilising people you must go and vote for our candidate and all that, it's work, it's something that you do and it's exciting and it engages you and so on. I'm saying that if you see the political participation of the youth it doesn't at all suggest that they are getting marginalised from these political processes and would want to intervene rather with guns. I'm saying I don't see it myself. This might be a limited personal experience.
But I think that generally the youth it would be I think incorrect to draw a conclusion that there is a trend, even if it's limited, the trend of the kind you describe.
I should have said also earlier we agreed with the then government about when we said we are suspending armed action, we agreed that we would continue to hold on to our arms caches and then instituted certain measures in order to bring them together in the common national armoury. And in fact big quantities of these weapons were then handed in to the State armoury. So as I say I am not sure that the situation that you describe is correct.
There is a problem which I think we raised in earlier submissions. We were saying, Chairperson, that we believe it is important to dismantle what was called the national security management system and later the something coordinating, that was necessary to really get into that to dismantle it, because we were still convinced that elements of that system remain.
If you take for instance, I am sure the Commission would have followed the Shobashobane case. That Shobashobane case will tell you a story some of whose elements are the following. That the extreme White right-wing is armed and continues to think it can use weapons to change the situation. It will say that there are police officers who are related to all of this and would take measures or not take measures in order to enable this kind of violence to continue. Specific Shobashobane evidence would also say that there are people who certainly wear IFP T-shirts whether they are genuine members or not I don't know, but anyway accepted, seen, viewed as members who in reality have been assassins for a long period of time. People in this group, the Shobashobane group there are people who had murder cases stretching into the eighties. It's a particular group and the reason a person whose got 13 murder charges but each time he gets charged for murder he gets bail, gets arrested again, charged, gets bail and none of the cases was moving, none. It's because the police, elements within the judiciary where you have this particular person for instance arrested and charged with his eleventh murder and the police officers say you can't release this person on bail, this particular time he was arrested for possession of illegal weapons and all of the other previous alleged murders had been carried out with firearms, he's caught with illegal weapons, the arresting police officers say you can't give this fellow bail. The magistrate agrees. Two days later the magistrate has released the fellow on bail.
So I'm saying it's a network and it's clear that that network is not a new network, it was not a 1995 network, it's an old network of the 1980's, armed can do all sorts of things.
So including what my colleagues were describing yesterday as counter-mobilisation, including the involvement of the youth in this violence, I think critically and it's also obvious the other element I should have mentioned with regard to this kind of grouping that you see in the Shobashobane case are just ordinary criminals, all integrated, IFP people, criminals, police, magistrates, White right-wing, all part of one collective, in terms of carrying out certain political violence.
And I think that's one of the matters that it would really be very important if the Commission focused on, to uproot these structures. I am certain somewhere, I don't know where, I am sure somewhere there are records of these structures who was in these national security management structures. And there were people, for instance, in hostels who were part of these structures. Now if you get the rogue policeman, if you get a rogue policeman who was part of these structures, who knows that induna so and so in a particular hostel was part of this and his role was to supply guns and to incite people to do particular things as that rogue policeman I can go to this person again and say let's get back into the field to do whatever.
So I think that that's an important element in this. But more generally I think the point is well made that the Commission would obviously have to look at the question, what is it that it can contribute further to cultivate a climate of free political activity, peaceful unarmed and to inspire the youth by saying here is a bad example of the past when we used guns and here is the experience, and this is the direction we ought to go. I think that is obviously one of the things that would be important. But we also need to get at the structures which produce this violence, both political and criminal.