Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-04

MR MACADAM: 2A that we don't see even the road signs on the road, to see exactly the location of the place.  It didn't end there.  The seniors or the leaders of the IFP and the leaders in the KwaZulu Police always insisted that our training was very important and even our instructors, every day they would always repeat that how secret it is, referring to the training.  These are the reasons why I am saying it was a secret.

MR MACADAM: Can you tell us how you actually came to leave this camp - Nhlumgwane camp at Ulundi?

WITNESS:   We were taken in the evening, after 4 o'clock.  We were taken by a car - a car which looks like a furniture removal car.  It's a very big car which doesn't have windows.  I would say it's constructed specifically for furniture removal and not people - transporting people.  We were taken by these cars from Hlongwane camp up - till to the airport in Durban.  It was driven by white people.  They were dressed in private clothes.  We arrived at the Durban International Airport.  We were marched and taken into a place which looked like an Army place.  It wasn't a good-looking place, as expensive.  This was done in a rush.  We were all rushing now, because we didn't even get the time to say goodbye to people whom we know or people that we loved, and you could see the way we were treated.  They didn't show some ... (inaudible) ... on us.  They had their own purpose.  We got into this plane and we were instructed to fasten our seatbelts.  It took off with us.

MR MACADAM: ... [break in recording] ... Aeroplane at an airport one goes to a terminal where one gets issues with a ticket and then goes into a lounge and then you wait in the lounge until the flight is called and then you go from the

MR MACADAM: /lounge to the

MR MACADAM: 2A lounge to the aeroplane.  Was that followed in this case?

WITNESS:   No, we were not respected people or dignitaries.  I know very well when it comes to the lawful boarding of aeroplanes.  We went through the passages which are used to transport goods into the planes.  There wasn't anything good to enjoy in our transportation.  What was serious is that we should do it as quickly as possible.  We didn't even go to the terminal's check-in points.  If I have to brief, we entered through the back door.  The plane was parked just closer to the truck which we were travelling in, the furniture removal truck.  We didn't even get a chance to look up in the sky or look sideways.  You have to grab your bags and jump and get into the plane as quickly as possible.  There wasn't even time to be searched to find out what you have in your possession and the plane took off with us.

MR MACADAM: For how long was that plane in the air, if you can remember?

WITNESS:   We left Durban at 9 o'clock in the evening.  The next stop it was 12 o'clock at night.  I would say it was three hours.

MR MACADAM: Do you remember the spot where the plane landed?

WITNESS:   As I have explained before, our ... (inaudible) ... was a top secret.  It wasn't clear to know exactly which airport we are going to land in.

MR MACADAM: Was it an airport similar to the one from which you had taken off?

WITNESS:   It's not easy for me to explain that, because when we were given the final confirmation as whether we have fastened our seat belts, we were told that we were going to alight.  When the lights were switched on, it was the time when we were about to land.  However, soon the lights were switched off.  After switching off

MR MACADAM: /the lights,

MR MACADAM: 2A the lights, the plane landed.  Suddenly there were cars just next to us by the names of Unimogs.  I later discovered that these were cars which were normally used by soldiers.  Even if they don't look like armoured vehicles which are closed on top, they have colours and these hard sides which look like soldiers' vehicles.  They are open at the back.  These are the cars which we had to get into as soon as we got out of the plane.  There were three cars.  We were able to fit into the car because not all of us from the Nhlumgwane camp were in that plane.  This was the first group which was selected.  The others were left behind.  These were supposed to follow.

MR MACADAM: Where were you taken to?

WITNESS:   I have said before that our training was a secret, because even us, the trainees, didn't know exactly where we were to be trained and we never knew up to today.  Even today I cannot stand before the committee and say - and take off and say I knew exactly where I was trained.  I just heard later, since things are coming to light.  We don't know exactly where we were.

MR MACADAM: Were you taken from the airport to another point later that same night or so?

WITNESS:   That's correct.  We had to travel for about three hours in these three cars, the Unimogs that I have already explained.  We were travelling on roads, there were trees on both sides of the roads.  However, it was a tarred road.  Even if we tried to peep through to look at road signs as to where we were going, we found that the road signs were covered by sacks.  Some were covered in black plastics - those ones that are used for collecting rubbish.  We travelled from 12 o'clock until 3 o'clock in the morning, going to a place which we

MR MACADAM: /didn't know.

MR MACADAM: 2A didn't know.

MR MACADAM: When you eventually arrived at this place, what did you find there, when you arrived at the end of this journey?

WITNESS:   It was very cold.  This was a very sandy place.  There was big and small trees.  It was just an open area.  You couldn't even see just a single house.  I mean even the river which was running through over the desert, we discovered it later.  The only thing that we heard when we arrived there, it was the different kinds of birds singing.  We were taken off the cars and one of the white men said to us that we can make some fire.  However, we must be careful that we should never leave the place where we were finally put in, because there were carnivores in that area, which might be dangerous to us.  And he said they will come back in the morning to us and we should just make fire and warm ourselves and wait for them till the next morning.  They left us and went away.

MR MACADAM: Did he tell you who he was and what position he held?

WITNESS:   No, he didn't tell us who he was or what position he occupies.  However, he gave us the name of Kloppies.  He said he was Kloppies.

MR MACADAM: Did you notice anything unusual about the way he was dressed or not?

WITNESS:   At that time he was dressed in private clothes.  However, the way, the modus operandi of his treatment was so different.  He was a quick person in all the things that he was doing and he looked like a very dangerous person.  He looked so intelligent and cautious.

MR MACADAM: The following day after you had arrived, what commenced then?

WITNESS:   I remember that the following morning white people came towards us.  There were about six or seven.  They came to us.  Among them there was one

MR MACADAM: /whom we ended

MR MACADAM: 2A whom we ended up knowing as JJ.  I remember him very well because I later heard about him.  I heard about him during the General Magnus Malan's trial, and I also heard - that was the second time I heard about him.  He is the person who addressed us in the morning.

MR MACADAM: And these other persons you claim were with you, were they wearing any unusual or out of the ordinary clothing at all?

WITNESS:   They were nice, heavy-built gentlemen.  They had flat stomachs and you can see that they're tough guys, who can stand against anything, and they were healthy and they were showing this inspiration in whatever thing that they were doing, and they were always quick and abrupt in whatever they were doing.

MR MACADAM: Was there anything unusual - civilian clothing or a form of uniform or are you in a position to tell us?