Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR DE KLERK: Yes, but I've never indicated that aberrations were not also at high levels. I'm not shifting - I've the whole morning being coming out very sympathetically towards juniors in junior positions where seniors were involved in this with them or where there is real evidence that orders have been given. The blame should rest where the aberration or where the crime originated. We are talking about not aberrations, we are talking about crimes Mr Commissioner. I am not just running it down as aberrations. Those were crimes which, if it wasn't for amnesty, should have been prosecuted, and that is where I stand. And they are serious crimes. And whether you are a general or whether you are a minister or whether whomever you are, if you were involved and part and parcel of that crime such a person is culpable and such a person must then, if it falls within the ambit of the law, apply for amnesty. So I have just said that I am shocked, there are more people apparently involved if I look at the number of applications. I don't know how many incidents are involved. But it is a general problem. 
If I read the ANC's evidence, and I am not saying it to defend my point, correctly they say they were not in favour of necklacing, but nonetheless I think more-or-less 500 necklacings and each one was an individual occasion, more-or-less, 500 necklace murders occurred. They were crimes, not aberrations. 
And I must accept if there is evidence from the ANC's leadership that they tried to stop it although as I point out there are quotes from the late Chris Hani and so on which indicates that they actually condoned this. But many, many instances, the fact that there were many instances, that is because that is what the whole debate has been about this morning. What does it prove? It proves that it was much more widespread and it's a shocking state of affairs and I'm extremely sorry that it has happened. 
I can just say that I went out of my way to institute preventative measures, to investigate rumours and allegations and that - and once again with hindsight, knowing what I know now, I should have done certain things maybe sooner. I should have done certain different things, additional things, but with the light that I had at that point in time, and with the information at my disposal, and with the information which I got when I made enquiries, I, in a bona fide manner and my government with me, tried to deal with as effectively as was possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Mr de Klerk I want to take you back to your opening statement where inter alia you said that you as leader and your party accepts responsibility and offers apology for policies which hurt people, and you mentioned some of these. I quote your words
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<UNKNOWN>: orced removals, pass laws, racial discrimination, denial of citizenship, job reservation...."
and so on, and you said, and I wrote your words down, but I'm not saying that they are exactly as what you said, but as a result of these policies and these laws tremendous harm was done to millions of South Africans, and that you wish to again affirm your own apology and that of your party.
Since then we have listened to a number of cases which took place in South Africa, which you yourself have described as horrendous, awful. In particular we have had evidence that statements from senior people that torture was routine or widespread, whether they were right or wrong but the fact that they are saying that they were involved in it suggests that there's some veracity in that. 
Now against the background of these acts which have only come to light, but which I must say many people in South Africa were not surprised to hear the confessions of senior policemen, there were many press reports, many international reports, many statements made inside, outside of Parliament about what was happening as a result of apartheid policies. But be that as it may, bearing that in mind, and the tremendous harm done to millions of South Africans, during the last months did you at any time weigh up, at least weigh up the possibility of applying for amnesty?

MR DE KLERK: The short answer to that is, yes, I have looked very carefully at the question and I have actually made a public statement on it where I dealt with my reasons for not doing so, and in which I essentially said the following. And I said that also based on legal advice that I asked amnesty is there to get a pardon for a crime of which you believe you could be found guilty if you were charged in court. And I think that is the explanation which was given by the Commission itself. Amnesty is not there, that is not the correct channel, in which to express your sorrow, your acceptance of responsibility, your repentance for things which are not crimes, and I have not been involved in anything which can be - which can constitute any form of credible charge that I have been guilty of any crime. And therefore the channel for accepting that responsibility I said in the statement is you, is a hearing like this, is the submission which I made in August last year; is the submission which I made in reply to questions and is the submission which I made this morning. When Dr Koornhof phoned me a few days before he actually lodged his application, whereas anybody who said I have a problem, I might have been involved in this crime, I said go and apply, I supported everybody who wanted to apply for amnesty to do so, but in Dr Koornhof's case, on a personal level, my advice to him was I don't think you need to apply, find another way of saying how sorry you are, because you will be cluttering up the amnesty process and there's no way in which I know that you are guilty of any crime. But that doesn't detract from the earnestness with which we say that people have been harmed.
But in the time when some of the things that you are referring were happening I must also point out, once again not as justification, as Minister of Education I have been expanding education and improving education standards for all. My fellow ministers, the Minister of Housing was building houses much more effectively than the present government is doing at the moment. New schools were being built. New opportunities were being created. Legislation was reviewed and all forms of discriminatory legislation was removed. You see what we must realise, and this is why it's important, once again it's not offered as justification, is apartheid did not come as an institutionalised policy and as a policy did not come to an end in 1994. It came to an end as a policy already in 1986. And from then onwards, not only with words, but with deeds, apartheid was in a very logical and methodical way, dismantled by the National Party. 
In this period millions of South Africans, who have been at the receiving end of apartheid became supporters of the National Party. So it's not just semantics when I say that looking at phases is important. The National Party is no longer, and for some years now, hasn't been an apartheid party. It is a truly non-racial party. More than 50% of its votes came from people of colour. And to continue to tarnish the National Party as it now is with the apartheid brush is absolutely unfair and it is factually totally wrong to do so.

DR BORAINE: Thank you. May I just remind you that I was quoting your words and not mine, and that the ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: No, no, I'm not aggressive, I'm just bringing this across Mr Commissioner, Mr Deputy Chairman, to make it clear that yes, I accept it because I speak on behalf of the National Party when I say this, the National Party over the years.