Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-09

N D NTANZI: I planned that my brother should be killed because he hated me because I was an IFP member.

MR SAMUEL: So it wasn't because he was badly treating you?

N D NTANZI: He did treat me badly with regards to my political organisation because he used to speak badly of the organisation and then I decided that I should hit him first.

MR LAX: Thanks.  Carry on, Mr Mapoma, sorry for ...

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.
	Are you aware that your mother did make a statement to the Magistrate?

N D NTANZI: I do not have knowledge thereof.  She was alone when she made such statements, so I do not know about those statements.

MR MAPOMA: Your mother made a statement which appears on page 88 of the bundle, for the record, Chairperson, where she made the following ...(indistinct) and I want to read it for you
"It is my second son, Dobotanzi and other boys who killed him."
That is, she refers to your brother.  She goes on to say:
"On 26 September 1993, a certain boy came to my kraal and killed Tulani by shooting him.  I asked Dobo my son and Kwabe and Ngwenya to kill Tulani because he was a nuisance at home."
That is what your mother said, what do you say to that?

N D NTANZI: I heard about that in Court.  I cannot really have knowledge about that.  What she actually asserted here is not true.
	All I know is that there were people who used to visit my home, visit my brother and kill IFP people.  After  his death those people stopped coming to the area.

ADV SIGODI: What was your brother doing at the time that he died, was he employed?

N D NTANZI: He was self-employed.

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, that must have been a mistake in the interpretation, he was actually a policeman in the kwaZulu Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a policeman?

ADV SIGODI: Was he a policeman?

N D NTANZI: He was a security guard.

ADV SIGODI: He was a security guard?

N D NTANZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Where?

N D NTANZI: ...(no English translation)

ADV SIGODI: Zulu Government?

N D NTANZI: At Gizenzela township in Eshowe.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know who his employer was?

N D NTANZI: No, I don't because I no longer resided at home.

ADV SIGODI: When did you leave your home?

N D NTANZI: When the violence started I was no longer staying at my home on a fulltime basis, I would just visit.  I could not even stay at home and my comrades used to ask me about this, why I had to leave home because of this one particular person, and they actually suggested that he should be attacked, with which I agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who suggested this?

N D NTANZI: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I didn't hear, I just asked you to repeat what you said.  Who suggested that he should be attacked?

N D NTANZI: It was people from my organisation who actually suggested that he should be attacked because I had actually left home because of him, and he was involved in the fighting.

ADV SIGODI: My question was, when did you leave your home?

N D NTANZI: I left for a month and I would just visit my home at intervals, and my comrades would ask me why I had to leave home because of this one person ...(intervention)

MR LAX: The question is really simple, we're just trying to know when you left your home.  You don't have to give us a long story about what you told your comrades and what they asked you.  Can you remember, was it one month your brother was killed, was it two months before your brother was killed, was it six months?  That is all we're trying to understand.  How long before your brother was killed did you leave home?

N D NTANZI: The violence at about April or May, people were attacking one another and we met as Inkatha youth members and decided on a strategy to protect ourselves.

MR LAX: Is that when you left home?

N D NTANZI: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: Is that when you left home, once you decided on the strategy you left home?  The strategy would have entailed camping, is that right?

N D NTANZI: I did stay at home for a while and we would actually go camping until I eventually left.  I would sometimes come to visit my mother and we would meet with other IFP comrades and discuss this issue.
	I told them that my brother because of his ANC membership, was a problem to me and we felt that they were responsible for killing IFP members.  Even after the death of my brother, those people were free to live peacefully.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at school then?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you continue going to school?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I continued schooling where I was residing.

CHAIRPERSON: What school was this?

N D NTANZI: At Phoso.

CHAIRPERSON: Phoso?

N D NTANZI: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you start there?

N D NTANZI: In 1993 I actually requested to join the school but I could not be accepted until 1995.

MR LAX: But this thing happened in 1993, are you making a mistake?  Do you mean '83?

N D NTANZI: There was violence in 1993 and all school children did not attend school because they were attacked.  I did not go to school in 1993 and 1994.  In 1995 I managed to attend school.

MR LAX: But you see, the Chairperson asked you: "Were you at school while all of this was going on?", you said: "Yes".  Now you've just told us that the schooling was interrupted because of the violence, there wasn't any schooling, please explain this.

N D NTANZI: In 1993 we were at school, then there was violence and no schooling took place when the violence occurred.  I actually moved from my home and I managed to get into a school called Phoso.

MR LAX: Carry on, Mr Mapoma, sorry.

MR MAPOMA: Now on the 11th of November this year you wrote a statement to the Amnesty Committee, do you remember that?

N D NTANZI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Who wrote this statement for you?

N D NTANZI: I wrote it.  I can even explain why I wrote it.

MR MAPOMA: Go on.

N D NTANZI: I was told in prison that if I appear before the TRC and admit that I did commit these atrocities, I would be given another sentence.  Therefore I decided that I should withdraw(?).

MR LAX: Who told you this?

N D NTANZI: Co-prisoners.

MR LAX: So you lied in this affidavit?

N D NTANZI: ...(no English translation)

MR LAX: So you lied in this affidavit?

N D NTANZI: The statement dated the 11th is incorrect. I was told by other prisoners that if I actually go and admit to the crimes, I would be given another sentence and then I decided to make the statement.

MR LAX: The point I'm putting to you doesn't change.  So the things you wrote here are lies, they are not the truth?

N D NTANZI: The are not true.

MR MAPOMA: How far did you go to school?

N D NTANZI: ...(no English translation)

MR MAPOMA: How far did you go to school?

N D NTANZI: Standard six.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that this statement was written on your behalf by Captain Madlala, who is a member of the South African Police Services?

MR LAX: He's an Investigator with the TRC.

MR MAPOMA: Oh, I'm sorry.

MR LAX: But he is also a policeman, ja.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

N D NTANZI: Yes, he came to me.

MR MAPOMA: And this statement in fact was written by him on your behalf?

N D NTANZI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So you were lying before this Committee when you were saying that you wrote the statement yourself to the Committee on the 11th of November 1998?

N D NTANZI: Maybe I did not understand you correctly, but it was the TRC Investigator who helped me and he wrote what I said to him.  After I had enquired from other prisoners about what happens at the TRC process and they told me that I've mentioned here, he was indeed the one who wrote the statement.

MR LAX: Why didn't you ask him before he wrote this statement, why didn't you ask this Investigator of the TRC, tell me something, this is what people are saying, is this true?

N D NTANZI: I did not tell Mr Madlala about it.  I decided that I should actually tell it to you so that you also know.