Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

MR SIBANYONI: According to you, it was not part of the operation, part of your policy to go and kill people?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Not that I am aware of Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: I heard you saying the ANC and the SACP were a threat to your continued existence.  I didn't understand what you meant by that.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I assumed that communism were the enemies of my family and myself.

MR SIBANYONI: But a threat in what sense?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: My life and my property, my religion and my culture Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Simply means that they may kill you if they come to power?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you still a member of the AWB?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: That is why you are saying you will never, according to your future plans, you will never involve yourself in political activities?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni.  Adv Gcabashe?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  Two aspects Mr Van Zyl.  I am back to planning, I have always understood operations, you plan for operations.
	Pretoria, what was the plan?  What was your role going to be once you got to Pretoria, just the discussion of the plan?  What was Mr Holder's role going to be and what was Mr De Meillon's role going to be?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: At that stage there still wasn't any kind of plan.

ADV GCABASHE: So you drove for two hours from Secunda to Pretoria on mission that you hoped to be successful, you had basic facts at your disposal when you left Secunda and between Secunda and Pretoria you did not seek any clarity at all as to what the individual participants' roles were going to be?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Was that the way you normally operated?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.  The order to attack the people, was only mentioned in Pretoria.

ADV GCABASHE: But how else were you going to get this arsenal without at least disarming the people who were guarding the arsenal?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I assumed that Mr De Meillon would indicate something as soon as we had arrived there, because he had already observed that place.

ADV GCABASHE: Who told you to pack your shotgun?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: The AWB's policy was with regard to moving around, no matter where we went, we had to take our weapons with us.

ADV GCABASHE: Was this  a licensed shotgun?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: But you had no clue at all as to what you would do once you got to Pretoria, either with or without the shotgun, whether the three of you would jump out of the car immediately, whether one would do A or B, you had no clue at all?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Except for the fact that we were supposed to fetch weapons, that was all I knew.

ADV GCABASHE: These weapons, I understand you to say it was going to be an arsenal of weapons.  That to me means quite a large number of weapons, essentially, am I right?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: You were asked a question by Mr Van Schalkwyk about transporting these weapons from Secunda, from Devon I beg your pardon, to Secunda, do you remember that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I ask you how were you going to transport those weapons from Pretoria to Secunda?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Depending upon the amount of weapons which we would have taken.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, depending on?  I mean did you discuss this, did you plan for it, you were driving a 3 litre Ford with one shotgun in the boot.  I don't know if there was anything else in the boot, where were you going to put this arsenal of weapons?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: It was not specifically indicated how much weapons we would take, so it would probably have been loaded into the boot of the car.

ADV GCABASHE: That is another aspect that I would have thought would have been covered in the planning, how you were then going to load this arsenal of weapons into the motor vehicle, without being detected by any other persons?  None of this was discussed?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Nothing.

ADV GCABASHE: And you call this an operation, sanctioned by your political party in the interest of your political party?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Because Mr De Meillon was in command, I believed that he knew what to do and that he would inform us of what we were supposed to do as soon as we had arrived at the place.

ADV GCABASHE: Let's come back to Secunda, having come back from Devon, I am a bit puzzled, where exactly did you drop Mr De Meillon, you say it was the house on the left hand side as you enter Secunda.
	I did not understand this to be Mr Van Rensburg's house, am I wrong?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No, as you enter Secunda, there is a traffic light, and on the left hand side of that traffic light, there are houses.  Mr Van Rensburg lived in a house at the edge of the town.

ADV GCABASHE: In that vicinity?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you drop Mr De Meillon at Mr Van Rensburg's house?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

ADV GCABASHE: But one way or the other, he was able on foot presumably, to get to Mr Van Rensburg's house before you, because you have told us that when you arrived at Mr Van Rensburg's house, he said to you oh, De Meillon is here, or had been here, something to that effect?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Where did you go to after dropping him, I thought you went directly to Mr Van Rensburg's house?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I did.  But there was a detour which one had to take, one couldn't turn off to his house, so one would have to turn off after a while, and then drive back to his house, and that is why he reached Mr Van Rensburg's home before I did, because he took a short cut through the field.

ADV GCABASHE: In that case, what was the purpose of dropping Mr De Meillon off at the traffic lights, why didn't you just drive together and arrive at the house together?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: He told me to drop him off there.

ADV GCABASHE: You had no responsibility to report to Mr Van Rensburg, because he was a member of a different organisation, that is correct?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And yet he told you not to worry, he would tell Mr Van Schalkwyk about what had happened?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Wasn't it your responsibility to go back to the person you say, instructed you and explain what had happened?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I didn't receive an instruction from anybody.  I heard about this from my fellow applicants.  Mr Van Schalkwyk did not give me the order directly.

ADV GCABASHE: Directly is the operative word, he gave it to you indirectly, because that is what your colleague told you, Mr Holder said to you this is what Mr Van Schalkwyk said we should do, we must accompany this man?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Or are you now saying that you did not get an instruction at all, please help me understand this?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, I did receive an instruction, but not directly from Mr Van Schalkwyk.

ADV GCABASHE: And you had no obligation to report to the person who had instructed you, Mr Van Schalkwyk?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: But why not, isn't this an organisation that has particular structure order, way of reporting, that is what I have understood in all the other AWB matters I have sat on?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Because the Officer in command, would have conveyed this to the Commander.