Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: I think so, Chairperson, to have a comprehensive picture so that everybody knows what happened, the truth.  I think there were some guys who were not senior superintendents but who are still working for the Provincial Government.  I think that guy can testify because we went to him many a times to talk to him.  He told us that he is also helpless, there is not much he can do.  So I think that guy can give us a better picture of what was happening.  As I said, it was very strange for a doctor to advise people to run away from the hospital.  We had to result in smuggling people out of hospital because we were trying to save them from going to prison.  We had our own network at that time to change that kind of culture.  The time when there was the riots at the Northern areas it was the same situation.  The township was sealed off.  When we got to Red Cross there was another man called Kruger.  He was very scared of us.  He said he could give us an ambulance but he is not going to give us the personnel together with the ambulance.  When I got there there were two ladies.  They were really fighters at that time.  It was Thembeka and another lady.  We said we are just going to take a ride around the township.  At that time there were shots all over the place in the townships.  We could not go there.  I am just trying to talk about this hospital.  We took the hospital eventually and we forced ourselves.  We went exactly to where the shots had been fired.  
When we got to the hospital with the first load the policemen were standing outside.  We told them we were staff we could not go in there.  They said, "Who is that?"  It is the PEM.  We told them that people are dying there, do something.  Some of the people from the hospital tried to go there.  One of the doctors was Pat Naidoo.  We briefed him.  At that time it was the first time for Livingstone to play its role now.  I am trying to tell you how some of these hospitals could be involved.  I feel they should come over and say how they were involved.
(?) The last question.  Yesterday we heard testimonies that fire services were frequently withheld whenever there were fires in the townships.  I want to ask you for your observations specific to ambulance services and the withdrawal, withholding of ambulance services particularly, and I quote, " politically related injuries".

WITNESS: Initially, Chairperson, ambulances had access to the townships but then what used to happen is that the police will define the situation.  So the ambulances had to go to the police station at New Brighton and on the [Inaudible...] escort because they wanted to monitor the movements of the ambulance.  As the result we went to Red Cross to assist to move people into the hospitals.
I remember just briefly one occasion.  These boere shot a lady in her yard.  She was wearing a nightie and a gown.  There was a funeral obviously.  So they shot this lady and took in a vehicle of the Red Cross to my rooms.  The police at that time were really very violent.  They used to arrest people inside the surgery when I was busy stitching up people and they would arrest them.  We thought that we should get a flag of the Red Cross and put it in front of the surgery.  There was nothing else that I could stop him with, only that flag from the Red Cross.  So we were trying to protect ourselves.  They would come, they were tall with riffles and I thought to myself I am going to be stubborn as well.  They used to ask, "Who is your leader?"  I asked them back, "Who is your leader?"  Van Wyk said he was.  I said that Van Wyk was going to take responsibility of everything that was happening here.  One of the patient who they brought was a woman who only had a nightdress on.  They had shot her in the stomach.  I asked, "Did you shoot her?"  I asked Van Wyk, "Take this patient and take her to hospital."  It was the first time for me to see the police actually taking care of a patient and taking her into a van and taking her to hospital.
What I am coming to, ambulances could not move freely. If you wanted an ambulance you had to start at the police station.  So yes, I think there was a system of control on ambulances in our system.
(?) Very early in your testimony you mentioned that there were White doctors who used to function as doctors during the day time and at night used to dress themselves in police clothes.  It is not clear to me.  Were they functioning as policemen at night?  What exactly what was going on?

WITNESS: Chairperson, this was very common, it is a sort of rural interlink where you find what you call army reservists and police reservists.  So you will find that a guy was a doctor during the day and at then 17h00, especially Cradock.  I am sure if there is any Comrade who could testify from Cradock he will elaborate as to who was those doctors.  18h00 at night they put on camouflage, a sjambok and he is also part of that shooting and killing.  The following morning he is in hospital supposed to treat patients.  That was very common in the rural areas.  Especially Cradock, I was aware of two doctors who were reservists.
(?) Chairperson, I would like to ask if Dr Maqina could supply us with the list of the people that he said might be destitute and might need our follow-up.  Indulge me, Chairperson.  
I would like to thank Dr Maqina, but the comments in our profession when we take the hippocratic, our goal is to save lives and that is very unfortunate in South Africa that doctors who have taken the hypocritic oath have participated in very nefarious ways in the perpartration of human rights violations.  I also would like to say special thanks to Dr Maqina for his bravery, not only in the presentation of his testimony, but the role you played, a very risky role you played during the struggle.  Sir, on behalf of the Commission, I salute you.

WITNESS: Thank you.

WITNESS: IS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to take a three minute break so that we can just stretch ourselves and then sit down again.

ADJOURNS RESUMES: Mrs NOSISANA CELIA LOUW D.S.S.

CHAIRPERSON: My colleague will lead the witness.
(?) Thank you, Chairperson.  Good morning Mrs Louw.

WITNESS: Good morning all of you.
(?) We are going to talk together about this case.  Please relax, settle down so that you can speak freely.  Tell us about yourself, your home and your son you are going to talk about now, Sizwe Mazungula.  Just take a minute and then you can talk.

WITNESS: My name is Nosisana Celia Louw but my surname is Plaatjies.  I am from Kirkwood.  At the moment I stay at Moses Mabitya at Ethembeni No 26, but my real home is at No 4 at Ethembeni.  Sizwe's home, the one I am going to talk about now, my first born, is at 35 Ethembeni Street.  I was born in 1946.  I gave birth to Sizwe in 1964 on the 13 October.  At that time I was married to the Mazungula family.
(?) Is there a story that you would like to tell the Truth Commission, Mrs Louw?  If you do, please start now and tell us about Sizwe.  What happened to Sizwe?

WITNESS: Point number 1, Sizwe was very politically minded.  In 1980 I could see that Sizwe was now being arrested many times by the police.  
I sat down with him and asked him, "What is going on with you now?"  He said, "No, Mama, I cannot withdraw now.  I am already too deeply involved."  In 1980 a young man, in the morning, arrived at my place.  He told me that my child was wanted by the giddies.  I asked, "Who are these magiddies?  If the giddies people wants my son they must come here."
(?) Please let me interrupt you here.  Who are these giddies?

WITNESS: The giddies people are these detectives. We call them magiddies.
(?) Please continue.