Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, the killing did not develop as a strategy in order to purely eliminate somebody.  The idea was to recruit the person as an informer and I am sure you will see and it has been argued here, that the cases which are presented here, are cases of persons who we had identified in the hierarchical structure of the ANC, and that this was not an everyday occurrence.

ADV PRIOR: There were specific persons, given their functions within the MK structures, they were identified as key personnel for want of a better word, and if they could not be turned, they would then be eliminated, is that my understanding of your evidence, is that correct?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: It was not like that with every case, it depended upon circumstances.

ADV PRIOR: I still have difficulty with the concept because it seems that various branches of the Security Police, throughout the country adopted the same sort of strategy if they couldn't turn them, they would then in all probability be killed.
	I need to know if you can assist us, whether that strategy if I can, for want of a better word, whether it was a strategy or giving effect later to a strategy that went wrong, or you couldn't give effect to the strategy of turning, was that discussed at a national level or at a time when all the interested parties were together, or did it just develop in the regions, on its own, without any coordination?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I have no recollection, or let me put it clearer, I don't know that something like that occurred.

ADV PRIOR: I put it to you because we know from the various applications and the evidence that has come out, that Port Natal wasn't the only Security Branch office that eliminated people and I was just curious to know whether the fact that other branches or other offices were also doing the same sort of thing, whether that had been coordinated at a certain level or not?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Not according to my knowledge.

ADV PRIOR: Colonel, the farm Elandskop, sorry, it has been loosely referred to as Elandskop, in fact the correct description is Graig Head Sub A, in the district Elandskop/Qwadi.  Is that correct?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: If you say so, yes.  That could be correct.

ADV PRIOR: And that was a Natal Trust Farm?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And who leased that farm?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I don't know.  I don't know who it was.

ADV PRIOR: Did you have anything to do with the arrangements regarding the lease of the farm to the police or not?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: There was no agreement for the usage of the farm.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, can I just make sure, you said that there was no agreement?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: There was no contract for the use of the farm.

MR MALAN: Who owned the farm?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Natal Trust Farms.  As far as I can remember, there were 13 to 16 farms which were run by Natal Trust Farms at a certain stage, and at that point, there were a number of people on some of the farms.

MR MALAN: Who was Natal Trust Farms?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is a very difficult question.

MR MALAN: Was it a private or public section concern, you don't know?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I don't know, no.

MR MALAN: If you don't know, how could you just go ahead and use somebody else's farm on a permanent basis?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I can explain it to you.

MR MALAN: Please do.

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Chairperson, that farm was used as a safe house, according to the terminology.  I had permission to use the farm from the manager of those farms, at that stage.

MR MALAN: As a safe house?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, not necessarily, he didn't know what it was going to be used for.

MR MALAN: You never informed him?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, I never informed him.  I simply asked him for a premises from which, or at which I could stay the night.  He didn't even make any enquiries regarding what type.  He knew that I was in the police, I am sure he could have drawn his own inferences, but I didn't discuss the activities which may or may not take place there.

MR MALAN: Did you ask him for the use of the farm for personal or police reasons?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I asked for the farm for police use.

ADV PRIOR: This farm at Elandskop, are you able to tell us when that was acquired for police purposes?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Chairperson, if my memory serves me correctly, it would be approximately in 1986.

ADV PRIOR: You had offices within Maritzburg?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Why did you need safe houses, or houses away from the eye of the public?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Because we worked with informers, and you couldn't bring informers to your offices, one would have to keep them in a safe place.

ADV PRIOR: Not to operate clandestinely?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: No, I did not operate any clandestine activities from there, in the sense that Vlakplaas would have with askaris and so forth.

ADV PRIOR: But eventually the farm was used for that very purpose?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Later it became that, but initially it was not intended for that.

ADV PRIOR: I think you have answered my question, you never set up these farms or these safe houses in order to implement this new strategy?

MR VISSER: Sorry, Mr Chairman, the fact that I sit idly by and don't object every time, does not mean that we agree that there was ever a strategy that my learned friend is angling for, but I don't want to object every time he uses the word strategy or grand strategy or whatever.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Who was your immediate superior at the time, that is 1987?  1986, 1987, 1988?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: At that stage, in 1987 if I remember correctly, it was Brigadier Beukes who later became General Beukes.
	In 1988 if I remember correctly, it was General Jack Buchner and in 1989, I think it was Corrie McDuling.  I am not certain from when Gen Buchner was transferred from there.
	But as I have already mentioned in my evidence in chief, the three divisions had already started working together much closer in the regard of that which we are discussing.
	In Port Natal, I would have received my direct instructions as part of that division, from Steyn or from the senior officer above me.

ADV PRIOR: I don't know if you gave evidence about this specific aspect I am going to ask you about, but in your area of jurisdiction, in Pietermaritzburg, had there been any activities ascribed to Portia Ndwandwe's unit or not?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Not as far as I am aware of.

ADV PRIOR: Why was it necessary for you to go along to Swaziland?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Because I also handled informers in Swaziland and because terrorists and MK activities in the Midlands fell within my jurisdiction, as well as weapon stockpiling points.
	It was necessary for me to obtain the necessary information as soon as possible, in order to deal with the terrorists.

ADV PRIOR: Did you interrogate Portia Ndwandwe in Onverwacht?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: I may have asked her a few questions, but at that stage I left it to Botha.  I think the only time when I actually did speak to her, was at Elandskop on the farm, that was when I communicated more with her.

ADV PRIOR: At that stage, the decision, had it not been taken that she was to be eliminated?  She wasn't going to be turned, that was clear from the Onverwacht experience?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: Yes, that is true Mr Chairman, but the hope was there that she could be turned.

ADV PRIOR: Notwithstanding that, I understand on your evidence Labuschagne and Verwey also came to interrogate her?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: And they came from Middelburg?

JAKOBUS ADRIAAN FORSTER: That is correct, yes.