Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'll be with you in a moment.   Mr Williams, I understand your point, but I just wanted to consult with my legal representative and what I want to explain to you is that I never saw a bomb go off or anything like that.  Whenever there was a case of arson in Belgravia, I always saw some of your members there, but I cannot say that they did it.  Perhaps you understand what I mean now.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, I think I understand you, but the way I know you ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: I would have said that to somebody.

MR WILLIAMS: So you would have told them that you always saw members if there was a fire or something ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: That I always saw them at the scene.

MR WILLIAMS: It could also be that if you saw some of your neighbours there you would said that sort of thing to anybody.  If you saw one of your neighbours every time there was a fire or something like that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I wouldn't have said it was my neighbour, because my neighbour might not have been in that business that Mr Williams and the others were involved in.

MR WILLIAMS: I think I understand what you mean.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, you understand what I mean.

MR LAX: Sorry, what business were they in?

ISGAK HARDIEN: We had our differences, he believed what he believed and I believed what I believed and with the arson, if I saw them I always thought: "It's Pietie and them again that are causing all this shit."  So I wouldn't have involved my neighbour in it as such.

MR LAX: The fact of the matter is that you thought they were doing those things.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.
	But Gakkie, would you have said to anybody as a fact, that the Kewtown Youth Movement, although you just testified that you never saw any of the members committing such acts, would you have said to anybody that you knew that they Kewtown Youth Movement was involved in this because you saw them for example, and would you have put such facts to anybody?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: In other words, you would have lied?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I wouldn't have said that I saw Pietie do it, but I would have said that I saw them at the scene of the fire.  I would have said to myself: "Oh, it's them again."

MR WILLIAMS: But just tell the Committee, if tyres were burning in the road usually there would be hundreds of people in the vicinity.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So you wouldn't have been able to say who precisely would have been responsible for it, because you didn't see the person who committed the act, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I've just told you I didn't see them, but if something like that happened my mind told me it's the Kewtown Youth Movement again, they're behind it.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you accepted that we were responsible for arson, in which areas, Belgravia Road?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, Belgravia Road.

MR WILLIAMS: Belgravia Road, Thornton Road.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Klipfontein Road?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, all of those in our environment, near to where we live.

MR WILLIAMS: So if something like that happened you would simply have believed that some of our people were involved, and was your reason for believing this that you knew that we were interested in politics?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I would say that.

MR WILLIAMS: Just tell the Committee, what was it that was burnt in the streets?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I cannot tell you precisely what it was, but there were trucks which were burnt, I cannot tell you in precise detail that it was that truck or this bus, because Mr Williams as you know, you were rather busy.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know yourself who planted the post office bomb in Athlone  and the Magistrate's bomb in Athlone?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I cannot say that I know who it is and I don't know who it is.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you have any suspicion?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Once again, if things like that happened and during that time there were many political things that were happening, in my mind I thought it's the Kewtown Youth Movement who's involved in this again.  At that stage the UDF was prominent ...(intervention)

MR WILLIAMS: Yes Gakkie, but is it true that you thought that the UDF in general, as an organisation was comprised of many members who were busy with things, or did you narrow it down and say that you knew that there was a group of say, eight persons and that you knew it was that group?  What was going through your mind?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I thought that the UDF and Kewtown were aligned.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words, we were part of a much larger movement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you think that the larger movement was the UDF in its entirety, which were involved with all these things, or responsible for all these things?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And that was the information that you would have given to the CCB?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, can you recall that at a certain stage you asked me, or we were having a discussion, it was just the two of us and you said that you knew where you could obtain a lot of handgrenades and that sort of thing?  Do you recall that we had such a discussion?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you recall that you told me at a certain stage that you had access to that sort of weaponry?  I think it was in the same year, it was close to the Namibian election.  You said that you had access to a lot of handgrenades and that sort of thing and that if the Kewtown Youth Movement wanted any of those things, we just had to say the word and my response to was that we weren't interested in that sort of thing?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall that I said that to you.

MR WILLIAMS: Then my question is, did you have access to those things, did you have connections in other words?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, let us just discuss the evening of the bomb incident, and before I refer to that I just want to tell you that there is a difference in your manner of evidence now and your previous manner of evidence, many of the things that you have said give me the impression that you are trying to tell the truth, that you have a few problems here and there, but that with many of the aspects you are trying to tell us the truth.  Let us just begin with you and Slang and Calla who came from the airport and you went to Kewtown and at a certain stage, do you recall that I was in a meeting with other people ...(intervention)

MR RHEEDE: I beg your pardon, sorry to interpose, but I cannot recall that it was Mr Hardien's evidence that they went from the airport to Kewtown.

MR LAX: No, they went from the hotel.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you can be clearer, because what he said here, Mr Williams, was that he went home after the airport with the bomb and then a little while later he went to the ELC and then later he met the others at the Bellville hotel.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I think I'm just skipping a whole lot of detail and I actually want to come to the hall itself.
	Let's forget what happened before that, let's get to the point where you are on your way to the hall.  You stopped near the hall ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On the way to the hall by himself, or later with Mr van Zyl and Mr Botha?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Later when you and Slang and Calla arrived there.  I was in a meeting with some of our members and you entered the building, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Are you referring to that evening?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Please repeat your question.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it so that I was in a meeting and that you entered the building and you called me out from the meeting and the two of us stood just outside the door and had a private conversation, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: What did we discuss in private?

MR WILLIAMS: We will get to that.