Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: That's really the ...[inaudible].  for that correction.  It was too broadly, a little too broadly stated in the statement but the validity of the statement that they were lying as to when the conspiracy was hatched is submitted on their statements and in the Record Mr Chairman.  The coincidence of what is contained in the statements and how much of it is in accordance with their evidence is of course an important factor as to whether the statements were taken freely and voluntarily or not.
	And then we say in 6.4.4., Walus admitted in his evidence that he had once driven past Mr Mandela's house during the summer of '92/'93.  Walus is deliberately evasive about exactly when he drove past Mr Mandela's house, after he admitted that he usually drove his brother's white bakkie which his brother had in 1991 and 1992.
	He further tries to confuse the date by making reference to having known where Mr Mandela's house is by using the list of nine names as a source.  We submit that the Committee should accept the evidence of Mrs Beyers, that she saw Mr Walus watching the house of Mr Mandela in July 1992.  Mrs Beyers gave forthright evidence and had the opportunity to observe Walus when both their cars stopped next to each other at the traffic light.
	She was a credible witness and the Committee should accept her reasons for not having come forward soon after seeing Mr Walus' picture in the newspapers in April 1993.  It is submitted that it would have been, could not have been necessary for her to come forward at the time as Mr Walus had already been arrested.  It is submitted that the Committee should find that the conspiracy to eliminate leaders of the ANC, SACP was entered into at least during the latter part of 1992 and not in February 1993.
	A point was made by Counsel for the Applicants that identification is a fallible process.  We agree with that but there are difficulties in the submission when you are asked to reject Mrs Beyers as evidence because here we have a person who admits that he drove a white bakkie at that time although he says that it didn't have bullet holes on it.  Well, he may be telling the truth about that or may not, or it may be that I'm told, that sometimes there are stickers with, resembling bullet holes on cars, it may be that there was one of them but be that as it may, he admits that at or about that time he had the use of such a motor car.
	He admits that although a little later he did go to observe Mr Mandela's house, he is obviously being untruthful as to what the purpose was.  He says that he was selling crystal glass from his father's factory which had gone bankrupt a number of years before in Houghton and he happened to be passing by.  Challenged to point one shopkeeper or one resident to whom he sold the piece of glass, he was unable to tell us.  
	If I remember correctly he said that he hadn't succeeded in selling anything to anybody in Houghton in order to justify the -.  Now why he should be in Houghton and by chance pass Mr Mandela's house which one can almost take cognisance of is on a, in a quiet suburb, a T intersection, off the corner at the time and why he should be seen there is inexplicable.  And this of course is further evidence that they were not truthful and forthcoming as to when the conspiracy was hatched, who were the victims to be and on that basis and the others we submit that amnesty should be refused.

CHAIRPERSON: When you talk about the conspiracy being hatched, between whom, between himself?

GEORGE BIZOS: I submit that most certainly between the two Applicants and Mrs Derby-Lewis.  The high degree of probability, high degree of probability that Mr Clark would not have been kept out of it and that the persons who supplied and transmitted the firearm are not innocent of it but for our purposes for this Application the Committee should in our submission find that Mrs Derby-Lewis was a conspirator and if that is so, their attempts to shield her are serious grounds for disbelieving them and amount to non-disclosure as well as that if there were at least nine people to be killed and the probabilities are overwhelming Mr Chairman that there were nine people to be killed or more than one to be killed because the answers to members of the Committee and to us in cross examination, what, how could the chaos have come about or if the chaos didn't come about by the killing of Hani would you have stopped your grand scheme.
	Would you have not have gone against the others, No. 1 and No. 2 on the list or No. 4, 5 and 6.  So we submit that the probabilities are overwhelming, that there has not been full disclosure on when the conspiracy was hatched, who, everyone that was a member has not been mentioned and they have not been truthful about it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Bizos, if we do find that Mrs Derby-Lewis knew about this but we don't have evidence to find that she was actually part of the plot to kill, I suppose it's possible just to have mere knowledge but not be involved in an incriminating way.

GEORGE BIZOS: If she had not been associated with the list this may have been a defence available to her.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, I was going to point that out because we could only come to that conclusion if the Applicants were to overcome the ...[inaudible] of the list.  Assuming they overcome the ...[inaudible] of the list, what we have would then only be the fact that she knew about it.  She did not tell anybody else.  She didn't go to the police.  She was aware of the discussion and that does not or would not make her surely a co-conspirator.

GEORGE BIZOS: She may not have performed an executive act in the furtherance of the conspiracy.

CHAIRPERSON: Nor did she in any way encourage it's commitment, through evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, well if we take the bulk of it out and say that she had nothing to do with the list then that may be so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's talk about that list.  I want you to clear up, with this evidence we heard a long long time ago and I might not be clear in my mind about certain things.  One of the things I would like to clear up is, the list as she had it contained a large number of names.  The list in it's truncated form with only nine names was the one that was found.
	Now is there any point in the fact that as far as Mrs Derby-Lewis is concerned she had not dealings with that list in it's truncated form.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, with respect, the evidence on Record and in their statements, that list came out of her computer, the list of nine.  Now I beg your pardon, I'm corrected, the nineteen was out of her computer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: The nine she received from Arthur Kemp.

CHAIRPERSON: So she sent this list to Kemp in the first instance for particulars, the list of nineteen people?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, to Kemp.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And the evidence is both in the criminal record and here that Kemp gave her nine and that she then handed it over.

CHAIRPERSON: So now the list that she took to present to Mr Hartzenberg was the list of nine names and not nineteen, is that it?  Which Mr Hartzenberg did not act on?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I'm not clear on it.  It may be that there were both, maybe Kemp handed both back but whatever the position may be on her own statements, the list was a hit list.  The list of nine was a hit list and she is associated with it.  So that we are not dealing with a situation of mere knowledge, a passive, and also, having regard to their close relationship and once she was so active in compiling the list and being untruthful about the purpose for which it was compiled, surely the only inference that can be drawn was that she was party to the conspiracy.