Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Are we not running the danger of saying every person who joined the Security Branch became a victim of the system?

MS KOTZE: I think a lot of policemen are victims of their job circumstances.  I see too many policemen that have to take early retirement and if you look at the reasons it's entirely job bound ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Oh is that how far ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: So it's valid as far as I am concerned.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Oh is that how far your argument goes, does it go that far?  Your view does it go that far to see virtually anybody coming into the Security Branch as a victim?

MS KOTZE: No that's not what I am saying, I am talking about ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: As a potential, alright ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: I am talking about Mr Benzien, but I am saying there is a potential - the circumstances because it entails abnormal experiences makes a human-being prone to stress reactions.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But you focused on the system.

MS KOTZE: No I am not doing that, I am just telling you the wider view, or the wider circumstances that this man was doing his job in.  I am not talking about now, I am talking about then.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Exactly.  I am talking about then when he entered the Security Branch.  Are you saying the system had the potential of causing people to be victims?

MS KOTZE: That's my personal opinion.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we moving away from a situation where he was a potential victim and then at some stage, as a result of the abnormal requirements of his job he ceases to be a potential victim and he becomes a victim, is that what you are saying?

MS KOTZE: That's what I am saying, yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: At which point does he become an actual victim?

MS KOTZE: It's difficult to say in retrospection because we are talking about quite a few years, so it's very difficult for me to pinpoint a definite point.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What would be the main events of things or factors which moved him from being a potential victim to an actual one?

MS KOTZE: That's also too difficult for me to answer in retrospection because we are talking about quite a few years of vague experiences.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But did you canvass that during your consultation with him?

MS KOTZE: Yes I did.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well what factors did you pick up?

MS KOTZE: You know it's very difficult for me to talk about factors and to talk about Mr Benzien's experiences itself because I see my mandate as talking about his illnesses and his symptoms and not about what he did or didn't do, so I feel that's a question that is better put to him than to me.  Because I can only talk on ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Are you saying that you didn't deal with the causes ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: No I did deal with that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With the causes?

MS KOTZE: I did deal with the causes, of course, otherwise I couldn't come to my conclusion.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well what are the causes that made him an actual victim?

MS KOTZE: The abnormal circumstances that he had to work in.

MR DONAN: Thank you.  Did Mr Benzien tell you that he did his job very, very well?

MS KOTZE: Yes he did and he was very ashamed of that. He was proud of what he did prior to going into the Security Branch but he was not proud of what he did.  It took him quite a few sessions to actually tell me what he actually did.

MR DONAN: Did he tell you that in the Security Branch he was highly regarded for the work he did and that's why he was chosen for the work he did?

MS KOTZE: He was highly regarded for being a good policeman yes.  He solved a lot of good cases prior to going into the Security Branch.

MR DONAN: To put at its basic did he tell you that he tortured people better than anybody else in the force and therefore he was given that specific job?

MS KOTZE: No he did tell me that he tortured people but he didn't tell me that he did it better than anybody else, he didn't brag about the fact.

MR DONAN: Did he tell you that he got a medal for it?

MS KOTZE: Yes he did.

MR DONAN: Did he tell you he was proud of the medal at the time?

MS KOTZE: I cannot remember whether he said that.

MR DONAN: Did he tell you when he got the medal?

MS KOTZE: We spoke about that.

MR DONAN: When did he get the medal?

MS KOTZE: No I can't remember now, if I have to tell you immediately I won't be able to do that.

MR DONAN: Well that relates to when this disorder set in.  Did he tell you that he was suffering from this disorder when he got the medal?

MS KOTZE: Look he didn't make his own diagnosis, he doesn't claim to have this or that, I made the diagnosis and I made it on the grounds of what I saw in front of me when he consulted me.

MR DONAN: But did you take into account when you made the diagnosis the fact that he was very good at his job, he was highly regarded by his peers at the work he did, for the work he did?

MS KOTZE: Yes I did and that indicated to me that there was a lot of consent from higher up for what he did.

MR DONAN: Did it indicate to you that he couldn't have been too traumatised long after the events in question?

MS KOTZE: No it didn't because I could see that it had traumatised him as a person.  It broke down his self-confidence, he loathed himself, he didn't like what he was doing, he was ashamed.  He never told his wife.  He never gave her any details of what his job entailed.

MR DONAN: Have you dealt with criminals before, people that have committed serious crimes?

MS KOTZE: Yes I have.

MR DONAN: Have you ever dealt with any that loathe what they have done, felt true remorse?

MS KOTZE: Yes I have, I have seen remorse.

MR DONAN: And have they been any different from Mr Benzien?

MS KOTZE: I think remorse is a very personal thing, it's difficult for me to make a judgement.

MR DONAN: But what about the loathing of themselves?

MS KOTZE: I think he loathed himself and some other people I've seen have not loathed themselves, they have tried to rationalise themselves.

MR DONAN: The people that loathed themselves did they suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder?

MS KOTZE: It's difficult for me to answer that because I can't think of a specific patient that I can recall at the moment.

MR DONAN: Let's get to the second difficulty which I have that's on, it looks like page 426 at the top, "Course.
Post-traumatic disorders can occur at any stage including childhood.  Symptoms usually begin within three months after trauma though there may be a delay of months or even years before symptoms appear".
So usually they appear within three months of the trauma in question if there is one.

MS KOTZE: Not necessarily no.  I've seen that - I know this is the criteria but if you compare post-traumatic stress disorder with acute stress disorder you will see there's a time difference.  Anything, if you look at acute stress disorder the time limit that they put on it is basically a minimum of two days and a maximum of four weeks, so anything further than four weeks is then considered post-traumatic stress disorder.  And in this case again it's very difficult, psychology is not an exact science, it's very difficult for me to put numbers or times or limits on this type of thing.  What I have to do as a professional is deal, look at the symptoms I see at that specific moment and draw a conclusion.

MR DONAN: You didn't see Mr Benzien till 1997?

MS KOTZE: No I saw him in 1994 as well, but then I saw him in relation with his wife's depression because his work was taking a toll on her.  She was - because he didn't speak to her and she could see that he was severely stress, she was so worried about him - there's a very good close relationship there, that she became depressed and I pulled him in, into the therapy to discuss, but the focus was on his wife.