Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshangase, you're an investigating officer, isn't the long course of events it's normally the complainant that is afraid of the accused and not the accused that is afraid of the complainant?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: It is like that but just because as I've said Mr Mthembu with his brothers there on the farm there, how can I put it, I can say the applicant was just afraid of Mr Mthembu with his brothers.

MR PANDAY: Alright, now Mr Ntshangase, when you were stationed at the mid Illovo Police Station how long were you a policeman from your appointment at the mid Illovo Police Station?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I've been there for 10 years.

MR PANDAY: And how long are you in the police force currently?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: At that time?

MR PANDAY: At the time you were in mid Illovo, were you already ten years in service?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I was 8 years in service when this incident took place at the time.

MR PANDAY: So you got about almost 14 years of service in the police force?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes it's affirmative.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.  Now Mr Ntshangase, were you resident in the mid Illovo area, were you born and brought up in the mid Illovo area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No I was born and grew up in Howick area.

MR PANDAY: So it would be correct to assume that you would not know of the happenings in the community of mid Illovo, you were effectively an outsider to that area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Since I was there for a long time ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: No, just answer my question, you were born and brought up in the Howick area, that is correct right?  You've confirmed that?  Now in the mid Illovo area, did you live there once you became appointed as a policeman?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No I only worked there.

MR PANDAY: You only worked?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: So you attended work and you travelled back to the Howick area, is that correct?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I only travelled to Howick area on the weekends when I'm off.

MR PANDAY: Okay.  Do you also associate with the people in the - forgive my pronunciation, in the area from which the applicant lived in?  Did you associate with the people in that area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes Sir.

MR PANDAY: In that you spent time with them except your working hours?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR PANDAY: What sort of time would you spend with the people in that area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No, just playing soccer with them then attending meetings if there's some meeting called up by the chief and other people in the area.

MR PANDAY: What were these meetings called up for?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Just to make peace maybe if there two - or during the faction fighting at the time.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Ntshangase, this faction fighting, would it be possible that one side of the faction supported the IFP and the other side supported the ANC?  I'm asking you if it would be possible, I'm not asking you to give me a confirmation, would it be possible?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: As far as I know it wasn't associated with any political activities.

MR PANDAY: So you are saying ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, why would it not be possible?

MR PANDAY: Because if people were just fighting there over girlfriends just fighting over can say about Zulu dancing, that's what the cause of all this faction fighting.

ADV SANDI: Is it not possible that one party in the course of this faction fights would perceive the other to be aligned to the ANC and one group perceive the other to be aligned to the ANC and so forth?  Aren't those kinds of perceptions possible?

CHAIRPERSON: May I add you've already said that Sibo Mkhize seems to have been clearly aligned to the ANC and you said that this applicant is associated with him?  Is it Mkhize, the area belonged to them, you said?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: The area belongs to the Mkhize family but I will say definitely the thing was not - the Zulu dance or everything that caused the faction fight was not involved with the politics.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just explain, how would the applicant be aligned to the ANC if there was no ANC in that area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I will say that if the applicant is just asking for amnesty or to be freed from jail because he's been sentenced for quite a long time now he wanted other means to get out of jail because really what happens at mid Illovo there was no political ...(indistinct) in the area.

MR PANDAY: I think Mr Chairperson there's a storm on it's way.
	Mr Ntshangase, let me put this more simplistically, it's correct that you are in the police force, isn't that so?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: There are also many members in the police force.  Now in this police force you are a group of people right?  Like Mr Mkhize he is a group from the Mkhizes that belonged to a group in the area.  Now in the police force isn't it possible that most of you will be aligned to different political parties, you will have different political views, is that not possible?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: It is possible.

MR PANDAY: Now why is it not possible in this scenario?
Just to clarify for you, if we have the Induna, he is a person you must accept that he is not an animated thing, he's a person, he lives.  He's got people that follow him.  You mentioned that this Induna is there to guide the youth to solve problems.  Now if he's seen as a person of a figurehead, as a person with standing in the community, isn't it possible that this Induna could have very well guided the people to follow the IFP?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: It is possible but as far as I know at mid Illovo there was not a single incident that was reported which was related to the political activities.  If there was anything we could have known of that.

MR PANDAY: Okay Mr Ntshangase, you also mentioned that you played soccer now and then with the people in this area.  Did you associate with the Mkhizes as well in that area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes affirmative, I was playing with Mkhizes and everyone in the area.

MR PANDAY: Did you discuss problems with the Mkhizes as well?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: If there was anything that involves them I would discuss problems with them.

MR PANDAY: No, that's not what I'm asking you, did you discuss any problems with them?  Sorry, did you discuss the conflict that exists between the Induna and Mkhizes?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes affirmative we did discuss it.

MR PANDAY: What was their response?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No the Mkhizes, they wanted the Mthembu people to go back to the farms, they didn't want them to come and stay in the Empangisa area.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Ntshangase, you also mentioned that you would know if there was any political activities in the area.  Now is it correct that you mentioned in your evidence that the people may keep quiet as to their political affiliation, isn't that correct in your evidence, it was mentioned?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes it was mentioned.

MR PANDAY: Now isn't it also possible that this Induna didn't let you know, you mentioned you had discussions with him, you know that, you've mentioned it a bit earlier.  You mentioned that the Induna was to take care of the people around that point of evidence but is it not possible that the Induna didn't want to tell you that he was an IFP member?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: The Indunas, they are the ones who used to give us information what is happening to the area because we used to keep in touch with them several times but at this stage they'd inform us if anything that involves politics in the area.