bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-10

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Could you just tell us what has happened to Phineus since, what happened to Phineus?

PHINEUS ADONIS: They dragged Phineus, his whole body was damaged - even the head.  The lips as well, I think those bullets are still in his body even now.  Some of the bullets are on his head and his whole body was damaged.  I left him during those struggle and I sent him home - that is in Mandibogo, I wanted him to go and rest.  I thought I was helping myself when I let him run away, I only heard later that there is another gentleman who - who normally goes to Kuruman to - to stock for his shop and I asked this gentleman to give him lift together with Mzayitani.
 This gentleman said to me well that's fine I will give them a lift and my son went to his shop so that they can leave together.  This is not the real owner of the shop, he is only working at the shop.  He's duty is actually to go and fetch the stock from Kuruman so that the shop can be filled.  Now the owner of the shop hired this gentleman's van.
Mzayutani and Phineus went to him and they were on their way to Mandibogo because I wanted him to go and rest there because I thought he would be quickly healed.  Just after they have left the owner of this car passes through his house and he parked the car very close to the road and he walked into his house.
 I want to say this - I'm personally - I personally think he called the police because on their way to Kuruman the police were already waiting for them on the road and they stopped him.  After stopping him one car stopped at the back and they said to him, open your car.  This gentleman knew exactly - I want to say this.  This is my own feeling, the police opened the door and they said, get out we want you.  They said to him, you think it was yesterday at your place when we were being chased away.
And he got out of the car, Mzayitani alone was left in the car and he went over with this gentleman to my home.  The police took Phineus on the road and they came back with him, they arrested him.  On the same day - it was midday - I got the message that my son didn't arrive at Mandibogo, I only learned that he was in jail.  I was puzzled - I said I sent my son with this gentleman.  He was supposed to come and tell me that my son had been arrested.
I waited at home thinking that he would come, the next morning - it was a Saturday morning - I was - I was preparing myself for a funeral because we were going to bury the other comrades and I just passed through the house of this gentleman.  That's Benson Nyosi, when I got into his brother in laws house he said - he said to me wait for me please I'm also on my way to the funeral.
 Well I waited a while so that he can be ready, while waiting the gentleman who took my son with him came end of Tape 2, side B...
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you have any questions.  Thank you Ms Mokone - we know that your story is also very-very painful.  You've  you lost your son in the flower of his youth,  we do hope that we will  be able to assist you to find out what actually happened.  As you know the people that you've named in your statement are present here today and will also be giving their versions of what actually happened. We wish to thank you and your husband for coming forward to the Commission and we hope that as you listen today some of the pain will go away, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

MS FLATELA: No he didn't give them - me the names but he said that they were four - but he didn't give me the names.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you think that you were mislead because the was embarrassed about the fact that they were left to die there.

MS FLATELA: You know what - I think you know such a lot of things, I really don't know, but I'll - maybe come to one conclusion after the Truth Commission has helped me, I think so many  things go through my head everyday, I don't know what to think.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mamma are you aware of the  fact that there have been different Commissions of Inquiry which have been instituted by the ANC themselves, there was the Steward Commission, the Motshanjane Commission and there was the Douglas Commission.
 At any time - let me ask you  first - are you aware of the fact that there were these different Commissions of  Inquiry.

MS FLATELA: No I am not aware.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you never go to the ANC offices when they came back from exile to ask them about what happened to your son?

MS FLATELA: I went so many times,  I went so many times - but I don't know - I never just got right treatment from them I don't know why, but really I frequented this offices especially when mamma Ruth came back, because she was the person I met in Lusaka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Were you - did you  ever after Larry had come to see you, did you ever go back to the ANC offices with the information he had given you and asked them about whether that was correct or not.

MS FLATELA: I went again to mamma Ruth and told her and the answer she gave me - she said I told you what I was told, that's the answer I got.

YASMINE SOOKA: This is a very difficult question because why  do you - you said after - in your testimony that you become enemies with her, is this because you did not believe that she was telling you the truth and you constantly harassed her for an answer.

MS FLATELA: Yes I question - went to her asked her to tell me the truth, because I linked her, I - she was the only link between myself and Lusaka - the two of us -  she was my first link, so I kept on pestering her, but at the end of the day we were no more actually friends.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mamma your  story is a very painful one, one which a number of mothers I think are  - the problem is one which many of them are suffering with, but they don't actually know what happened to their loved one's who went into exile.  I think that we - we will try as best we can to find out what did happen and then come back and tell you.   But it is a difficult  story and we feel for you. I would  like to ask the other Commissioners if they want - if they have any questions for you.
Mamma thank you for your story, we appreciate the fact  that you've been such  a   [indistinct]  and we grieve for you and we know that peace will only come to your heart once you know what has happened to your loved one, thank you for sharing that with us.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

ADV NTSEBEZA: [indistinct] hired a lawyer to  prepare civil  claims against either Venter or the Minister of Police?   Or you never were represented by a lawyer to claim money for your damages - for your eyes that you - got lost in the  [indistinct]

REUBEN GALLANT: No, I never went to an attorney,  I did ask the attorney who represented us - I never claimed any damages from the police, no.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Reuben, as we said we will try and find out what actually happened and why the Attorney General declined to prosecute in this case and we will try and find out and we will get back to you.  We've already started investigating all the cases and the evidence and we really hope that we'll be able to be of assistance.  Thank you for your evidence, thank you Sandra.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

MR MBAQA: Well apparently it is the police but then I reckon it was on the advice of the Attorney General, I mean you know that - that the case is the case of the Attorney General so he might have said no.  He advised them, he is their lawyer - he is a state lawyer,  so I take it they had their advice from the Attorney General.
If - that is my assumption, it could have been the other way.  It could have been their own initiative to refuse to accept that evidence.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Sipho.  I think I should take the evidence of Nkosinathi before I ask other Commissioners to put other questions to you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much.  I think you have been very brave to have come and told your story before all of these people.  There is a process by which you can apply for Amnesty - we have an Amnesty Committee who can facilitate that you complete such a form.  We are also very grateful for the fact that if you come forward it might well be possible for the other two persons who are sitting in jail  unjustly for them to be freed if new evidence is taken into account.  
We are struck by the fact that you have come forward even though emotionally it must have taken an enormous amount of courage and we hope that the networks that are available in the  Kimberley area will at least be able to assist you with counselling so that you can begin to talk more about the emotional turmoil that  you are feeling.  Thank you for coming forward.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, the hearing resumes.

DR BORAINE: Chairperson, before I call the next witness I'd like to extend a very warm word of welcome to some international visitors.  To Joan Malhern and Stacey Taber from the United States who are law students.  They're standing right at the back there, we're very glad to see them.  Also with them Ricardo Maranda from Gwatamala - we're glad to see him.  
All three are - well one is a journalist, two are law students and they are working in co-operation with NADEL in South Africa and the National Lawyers Guild and the National Conference of Black Lawyers in the United States of America.  We're very pleased to have then with us for a while.
 Chairperson, I understand that Dean Markes is here and if he would mind standing for a second so we can recognise - thank you very much, we welcome.  The following witness is Father Michael Lapsley and I'll ask him to please come forward.  Father Lapsley I would like to welcome you  [indistinct] and very grateful to you for coming to share with us your own experience.  In particular you will be telling us about a parcel bomb explosion of 28th of April in 1990 in Harare which brought about extremely serious injuries.  
 Before I ask Denzil Potgieter to take over from me, would you please stand for the taking of the oath.
FATHER MICHAEL LAPSLEY Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE: Thank you, you may be seated.  I understand there's a second witness - I'm sorry your name  [indistinct] Father [intervention]

FATHER LAPSLEY: Michael Wilsner.

DR BORAINE: Michael Wilsner, welcome I'm sorry that I did not welcome you.  Your name was not before me.  We're very glad to see you as well and if you will please raise your right hand.
MICHAEL WILSNER Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, please be seated.  Denzil Potgieter I hand over to you now please.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Dr Boraine, Father Lapsley and Mr Wilsner again welcome.  Father we're happy that you are in this area and that you would be able to participate in the hearings today.  
Perhaps just by way of introduction you are an ordained priest of the Anglican Church and presently the Chaplain to the trauma Centre for victims of violence and torture in Cape Town, is that correct?

FATHER LAPSLEY: Than is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Before we deal with the incident that you testifying about, perhaps you can - you can give us a brief personal background of yourself.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: Michael was a priest in the diocese of Lesotho when I was the Bishop of  Lesotho.  He has had me say this before, he was one of the most  [indistinct] , most difficult priests I've ever had.  Well, listening to Michael was  [indistinct] there was probably other sides that I didn't always know,  I mean he was always bringing - you may be why it was such a problem was that he was probably making you face up to things but it was also how he did it, it was horrible.
 I'm going to say something I have said it - I've said to Michael which people will may find difficult  I in a way give thanks to God for what happened to Michael, it's a very difficult thing to say but he knows that I'm saying it and I'm saying it as someone who loves him very dearly.  Because the Michael after the bomb outrage has been an incredible person, he has been an  [indistinct]  he speaks about forgiveness in a way that he probably knows his Arch Bishop who is about to leave doesn't always agree.  
But he is an  [indistinct] sort of living example for the kind of thing that we are trying to help be incarnated - be in-fleshed in our country.  And I am very deeply humbled but  also very proud that Michael is now a priest in my  [indistinct]  in Cape Town and a priest of which - of whom I am very deeply proud.  I give thanks to God, I give thank to God for you Michael and I also give thanks for the experience through which you went because you can talk about crucifixion and resurrection because it is real - you - it is in your body.
You should see when he celebrates the Eucharist - I've sometimes stood next to him and got a little worried whether he was not going to overturn the  [indistinct] or something.  And there is an incredible kind of hush in almost every service that I have being with you because people somehow feel that they are in touch with goodness.  I mean in a awful situation somehow they - they are aware they are in touch with light in darkness but they are in touch with life in death and somehow they know goodness is going to triumph over evil, we thank you, I think we should stand.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

CASE NO: CT/04407

VIOLATION: TORTURED/

CHAIRPERSON: I'd like to call David Mabeka to take the witness stand please.  David you're very welcome  - you here.  We would like you to take your time when you tell your story.  Before you begin I will ask advocate Denzil Potgieter to ask you to take the oath please, if you'll rise please.

ADV POTGIETER: Would you please take the following oath.
DAVID MABEKA Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER: You may sit down.

CHAIRPERSON: David before I ask you to begin I would like to recognise Ms Papenfuss, a speaker from the Provincial Parliament.  If you could please rise and Ms Xeospicsengwa a member of Parliament as well.  Thank you for coming. 
 David as is customary we always ask a Commissioner to assist you in the telling of your story.  For your story we have asked advocate Potgieter to help you along as you go.  I now hand over to advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.  David your story goes back to 1986 and it deals with your detention and what followed on that, is that correct?

DAVID MABEKA: Yes, that's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

DAVID MABEKA: Can I go on with my story.   I am David Mabeka, I am from Barkley West.  The story that I'm going to tell you happened in 1986.  It was on the 12th of June, it was on a Thursday, I remember.  On the 12th of June the then State President -  Mr PW Botha - that was on the 12th of June at 10 o'clock in the evening he declared the State of Emergency.  I was at home at that time [intervention]

YASMINE SOOKA: [intervention] so that the witness can tell his story.  When there is a noise it disturbs his flow of thought.  We would request that you be quiet, thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] is coming through, okay - well it's in order.  You can please proceed.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-10

ME KGATIWANE: En hierdie hou hierso - want hierdie mond van hom het bietjie skeef geraak so, hierdie mond van hom is bietjie [tussenbeide]

ADV POTGIETER: So is dit nou nadat hy seergemaak gewees het wat hy nou so bietjie deurmekaar praat en die kop vat of vat nie party keer nie.

ME KGATIWANE: Ja wat hy nou so [tussenbeide]

ADV POTGIETER: Voor dit was hy all right gewees.

ME KGATIWANE: Hy was all right gewees.

ADV POTGIETER: Die bus mense wat daar ingekom het, is dit almal vreemde mense wat daar gekom het.

ME KGATIWANE: Ons - ons ken hulle nie - ons ken hulle nie - ons ken hulle nie, nie een van hulle ons van Griekwastad se mense daar ken vir hulle nie, dis maar net die mense wat vir hulle ingebring het, wat vir hulle ken.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou [tussenbeide]

ME KGATIWANE: Kyk daar was - ons is twee paar  [onduidelik]  daarso - dis die INKATHA - dis die ANC, nou ek dink maar net dis die mense van die INKATHA's  hulle het daardie  mense hier ingebring - voor die ANC.

ADV POTGIETER: En Aubrey u se daar is twee - daar is twee kante daarso in Griekwastad.

ME KGATIWANE: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Behoort Aubrey aan enige een van daai twee kante - ondersteun hy enige een van die twee?

ME KGATIWANE: Hy - ja hy behoort aan die ANC.

ADV POTGIETER: Is hy by die ANC kant?

ME KGATIWANE: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Se u mevrou dat daai mense wat daar gekom het met die bus was daar - was daar op  hulle klere geskryf - is daar INKATHA geskryf op die klere?

ME KGATIWANE: Dis INKATHA daar geskrywe op die klere  daarom weet ek nou dis INKATHA's.  Want die kind het vir my kom gese dis IFP.

ADV POTGIETER: IFP.

ME KGATIWANE: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Okay.

ME KGATIWANE: Nou by die - by die skippers van hulle - is INKATHA.

ADV POTGIETER: Okay - mevrou baie dankie - wat voel u moet ons doen vir u in verband met Aubrey se saak?

ME KGATIWANE: Ek voel want as dit so winter is - ek het swaar - niemand sien 'n vrou in die huis - dis net die Here wat sien, wat kom daardie vrou kort daar in daardie  huis.  Hy het nie pa nie, sy pa is lankal oorlede - seker nou twaalf jaar wat sy pa oorlede  is ek weet nie.  En hy werk vir homself en ek kry pensioen, ek kan nie vir - ek kan nie vir hom  [onduidelik]  nie.  En hy support ook darem sy kind met daardie ou bietjie geldjies wat ek nou so kry dan party more - party dae dan wil hy ook nie eens werk toe gaan nie  [onduidelik]  gaan maar werk toe.  Hy wil nie werk toe gaan nie.  Nou hy maak nie aspris nie - hy maak nie aspris nie, hy is 'n man wat gewerk het.

ADV POTGIETER: Baie dankie mevrou ons het gehoor wat u alles se en dankie dat u gekom het hiernatoe en vir ons vertel het van Aubrey se saak en dat u gewag het tot nou toe.  Ek gaan nou saam met Tommy praat oor sy saak, so ons kan maar daai mikrofoon skuif na hom kant toe.
 As ek klaar is dan sal ek vra of my kollegas vir enige een van u wil vrae vra ne.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

MS MABILO: Yes, I would like to say something.  I wasn't aware that the child was there for a month.  I know that he was having only days being in Kimberley.  Terror is the one who did this and I would like you to call Terror in front - to call him to appear in front of me so that he can explain to me why he killed my child.  He must have that responsibility on his shoulders to tell why he killed my son.
 We can forgive all people besides Terror, I would like him to appear before me and explain to me.

ADV POTGIETER: Is there anything else that you feel that the Commission could do for you apart from Terror?

MS MABILO: I request that - I am a poor woman and I struggled a lot.  I cannot work for myself as you see me and this is because of Terror.  Now this - these hands are not functioning any more, I cannot work for myself.  And the comrades are taking me to doctors.  As you see me I am under treatment, I - I hoped that while he was doing such things he would - he would be looking at me.  But that wasn't the case, I thought he would have a feeling for me.
 I cannot even hear thoroughly, I am nothing.  I don't have any child to look up to - a child who would work for me.  Nobody is employed at home - all of us are at home.  My family is a disgrace.  I hope I've just said everything and I thank you, I thank the Commission because we never thought that we would come here.  And nobody knew that we would be sitting as we are seated now.  Nobody knew that today would we hacked as we are held now.  I want him to feel the pain that I felt, I don't have a husband who can work for me, I thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: I thank you - I thank you too for your evidence and for sharing that with us.  You've referred to Terror now, we - we need some more information to be able to - to try and comply with your request.  Has he got a surname, Terror?

MS MABILO: I'm not sure, I think his surname is Kapanda.  I'm not sure whether call him Kapanda.

ADV POTGIETER: And assume that it is a policeman?

MS MABILO: That's truth, he is a policeman.

ADV POTGIETER: Here in Kimberley?

MS MABILO: Yes, he's in Kimberley.

ADV POTGIETER: Ms Mabilo thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Ms Mabilo, Florence, Ms Mabozo we grieve with you because we know that you have suffered.  The loss of a son is a very sad thing and today we have heard plenty of stories of mothers who don't know where their sons have gone, who don't know how their sons have died and who's sons have actually - who's lives have actually been wasted. 
We will do as you say, you've asked  us to find out why Terror did this to your son.  We need to go and find evidence to prove that he actually assist in the killing of your son.  But the Commission will try to do what it can to find out what the circumstances were when your son died.  Thank you for coming all of you to share your story with us, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-12

MRS BADI: Eric only.

CHAIRPERSON: And you?

MRS BADI: I am not married, but I do not stay at home.  It is Eric who stays there.

CHAIRPERSON: This was a painful day that you are reminding us of at Msobomvu.  I remember the funeral as we were going to bury the Badi family.  It was a day that we thought we would never heal from, it was so painful.  Elderly people and a young child.  I am thankful to see you here today, because on the day of the funeral you never thought you would survive, but the Lord has given you strength and you are able to come before the Commission. I think this is one of the matters that the Commission will look at closely, because I think Alice will never be at peace if this matter is not looked at closely and something is done about it.  We are grateful that you are so strong and for having brought this matter before the Commission.  There were doubts that you would come before the Commission, but we are grateful that you eventually came, because we know that something like this we cannot just forget about until the truth has been found.  I am sure that your mother and father are looking at you before us.  They know that even though they have passed on you are here to represent them.  Thank you. You may step down.

JUNE CRICHTON: We did not ask them their request, but it is okay.  I mean the extra things are noted here.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs George,  a lot of times people cannot fathom the pain that took place in this area by hooligans who were murdering people.  Most of them are denying this.  We would like to say to you, the blood that was shed made a contribution to the liberation that we have to-day.  This is why you're able to be here to-day and to tell your story.  I hope you'll be comforted by coming here.  Thembalakhe, you were brave for having left this country because you were in the struggle for liberation.  You have counted Comrade Thambo as one of the people who risked his life and went to pay respects to those that had passed on in sacrifice.  I hope that comforted you.  Also, the Lesotho Government endeavoured to put up respectable tombstones.  We thank you, Thembolani and the others that were there, for your bravery  Please tell your mother that we are going to take her requests before the State President so that he can see what he can do for you.  Thank you.  Your requests are written down on statements.

BULUKAZI ELSIE GEORGE: Can we not see the perpetrators, because this is the only time I can be comforted, because now we're blaming the whole police force and it's not all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: We are investigating the matter, some come, some are revealed, some are not.  Thank you.

BULUKAZI ELSIE GEORGE: I will never have peace in my heart, I want to see the perpetrator and I want to talk to him.  Thank you.  We want to know who took our children's lives at such a tender age.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

MS MAYA: In our statement, Mbulelo was murdered by ANC members as he was going to be the new executive.  These people together with other members of yet another organization.  Could you tell us more about this ?

MR SITHABATHABA: On the 11th of  January, Mr Zola, an investigator came, told me that he'd gotten the people.  They were ANC members and PAC members.

MS MAYA: Therefore, it is members of the two organizations ?

MR SITHABATHABA: Yes, ANC and PAC.

MS MAYA: Did you hear of any reasons ?

MR SITHABATHABA: No.  This is what we'd also like to know.

MS MAYA: Was this a norm, that when such things would happen, these organizations would come together and attack.

MR SITHABATHABA: I'd never heard of it before.

MS MAYA: Thank you.  Do you have requests to the Commission ?

NOBE SUTHU PATIENCE MBELEKANA: First of all, I request that the case be investigated and I want to know who killed Mbulelo, he's, he was my only child.  The father died in 1982.  Secondly, Mbulelo passed away.  I'm alone, I need a house to be built.

MS MAYA: Was Mbulelo your only child ?

NOBE SUTHU PATIENCE MBELEKANA: Yes, he was.

MS MAYA: You don't have a child ..

NOBE SUTHU PATIENCE MBELEKANA: No.  There's a ten year old who's my grand-niece from Transkei.

MS MAYA: Thank you, I'll hand you over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I thank you all for telling us about these incidents.  We know Komga velly, very well especially in connection with battles that took place there.   Even though it is difficult for you to be comforted.  However, a lot of work was done in Komga and around the border region.  We will look closely at your requests.  If it was up to us, we would meet all these needs, but we depend on the President to see what he can do, but in the meantime, we thank you.   Please step down.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

RONALD NGQANDU: I have one request.  I would like the Commission to help me.  I have a young child which needs to be supported.  I cannot work because my leg was shot.  I would find employment to work for a month and my leg would be painful, I will have to go to check-ups.  I was once hired in a hotel in Komga.  At that time I was not aware that there was a bullet in my leg.  I then went to a check-up.  They took the bullet out.

MR SANDI: Thank you, Mr Ngqandu.  I will now hand over to the Chairperson.  Maybe you will be asked some further questions.

RONALD NGQANDU: Thank you very much.  My friend just slept.  When I asked him what was happening here and when he's questioned in Cape Town, his answer will probably be, he was sleeping.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: You both have bullets  in your bodies.  We will take this forward.  If we need any other details, we will come back to you.  Thank you.  .
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR CARD?: I don't believe that I, that I abused them.  Then I want to say, Mr Chairman, that at a later stage I realized, through working with all the people involved, I realized that in fact that the apartheid system was an absolute disaster and if you remember that in the, it was in the '70's already, that I started preaching and people were calling me a communist and a fight.., at least anti, South African anti-Government and all the rest of it, I stuck to my guns.  That's the person you're dealing with, Mr Chairman.  You're dealing with a person who will tell you the truth and I've told you to-day what the truth is.  I'm not, I beg to differ with you, Mr Chairman, I don't see myself as the, I don't know what you called me,  a monster.  I was not the monster, Mr Chairman, I was doing a job at that stage and if I was asked to do a job to-day, I would still do it.  In fact, I wouldn't mind coming back to the police force.  We'd sort out a lot of problems, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Laughs.  Ja, I regret perhaps, the use of that word.  I was just trying to summarize the other picture that is portrayed by the statements before us.  They portray the picture of a monster.  I'm not putting that it's, it's what is portrayed by these kinds of statements that come forth.
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, I was one of those in 1988, who went to Lusaka.

CHAIRPERSON: I remember that.
MR CARD?: To try and look for peace.

CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you Mr Card?, as I say we could go on the whole day.  We have a very serious task before us as this Commission, to try and find the truth, not as perhaps as you perceive it, but as you and them will come to be reconciled in the truth.  A truth that will heal the wounds of the many people in the country and perhaps deal with why people have this perception of you.
MR CARD?: Mr Chairman, I would like to have sat together with these two gentlemen and discussed these things here, in front of everybody.  Let's find out where we, where the problem lay, because the problem is not mine, Mr Chairman, I can, that I'm quite sure of.    In fact, I thought these gentlemen would come in here to-day and say, no I'm sorry, it's not that Card?, it's somebody else.  That's what I believe to-day.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you very much.  Thank you, Mr Clarke and thank you Mr Card?.  We hope that this is not the end of our meeting.  We may have to meet again for a more in-depth look at this particular dilemma that we are in as a Commission on this matter.  Thank you very much.
MR CARD? &

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

MASIXOLE SKIET: I was from Dimbaza and I was going back home.  I heard that the soldiers were in my home in the, during the day.  They assaulted my grandfather.  At night while we were still sleeping, we heard that the, the soldiers threw a bomb in my home.  I then went to my grandfather's bedroom to check at him.  I got injured in that process.  I was taken to the hospital.

UNKNOWN: Are you talking about that day when a hand grenade was through in, was thrown in your home ?

MASIXOLE SKIET: Yes.

UNKNOWN: This happened during the conflict between ANC and ADM.

MASIXOLE SKIET: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Are you getting medical treatment now ?

MASIXOLE SKIET: No.

UNKNOWN: Is there a need for you to get a medical treatment ?

MASIXOLE SKIET: When it is very cold, I do feel pains.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any requests, Masixole, concerning this matter ?

MASIXOLE SKIET: I would like the Commission to help me to get some more medical treatment.

UNKNOWN: At home, was there anyone who was politically active ?

MASIXOLE SKIET: It was my grandfather.

UNKNOWN: This all happened because your grandfather took part in politics.

MASIXOLE SKIET: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And there was this conflict between ANC and ADM ?

MASIXOLE SKIET: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Are you at school ?

MASIXOLE SKIET: Yes.

UNKNOWN: In which standard are you ?

MASIXOLE SKIET: I'm doing Standard 8.

UNKNOWN: Is that all you wanted to say ?

MASIXOLE SKIET: Yes, that is all.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Masixole.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank the three of you, we have noted your requests.  As you are our last witnesses, you'll wait a minute, so that I can thank all the people who took part in our second-last hearing in this region.  Our last hearing will be in East London, next month and, we thank the Municipality of the area, we thank the Police, the Priests and the interpreters who were working very hard.  We thank the media, the radio people, the staff of the Commission and the members of the panel.  Most of all, we would like to thank the victims because, without them we won't have any hearings.  I thank everybody.  Our  hearing here in King William's Town is now closed.  We'll meet in East London  on
our last hearing.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, we would like to thank you because you led us in this hearing.  Thank you very much for your leadership.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

MS MAYA: At home, who is supporting you, as your mother passed away ?.  You mentioned that you have a younger sister and a younger brother.

LUVUYO SIYO: There's nobody supporting us.

MS MAYA: Are you the eldest ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: Yes.

MS MAYA: Are you working ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: Yes, I'm  working.

MS MAYA: How old are you Luvuyo ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: I'm 23 years old.

MS MAYA: Thank you, Luvuyo.  Do you have any requests to the Commission ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: Yes, I do.

MS MAYA: What are your requests ?

LUVUYO SIYO: First of all, as I was still at school at that time, I was forced to leave school so that I can support my younger sister and my younger brother.  I wanted to go and look for work, so that I can support them.  I would like the Commission to help me so that I can further my studies.  Secondly, my mother was trying to build us a home.  When she died we cannot, we could not finish the house.  I would like the Commission to help us and to talk with the Department of housing, so that we can be able to finish this house.

MS MAYA: How old is your younger sister and your younger brother ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: My  younger sister is 17 years old.  His name, her name is Viogazi.  The other on is 7 years old.

MS MAYA: Are they still at school ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: Yes, they are still at school.

MS MAYA: Are you the one paying for the school fees ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: Yes.

MS MAYA: Do you get assistance from the Government ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: No.

MS MAYA: Was there a courtcase because of this incident ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: Yes, in Thimbaza Police Station, but it did not continue.  I also went to Thabata to lay a charge.

MS MAYA: What happened to that case ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: The case continued and they said that we would get R60000-00 from the Government, but they said I would get R45000-00 but they only gave me R2000-00.  R2200-00 saying that they will keep the rest of the money and they will give it to Vuyogazi when she's 21 years old.

MS MAYA: Do you get money from them ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: No.

MS MAYA: They're not giving you anything ?.

LUVUYO SIYO: No.

MS MAYA: Thank you Luvuyo.  I will hand over to the Chairperson, maybe you'll be asked some questions.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Luvuyo for giving us such a clear picture.  We have noted your requests.  We will try by all means to forward your request to the President.  For now, we thank you for having strength and telling your mother's story.
You've suffered a lot at home, because of this incident.  Thank you.  You may now go back to your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: We will now ask the attorney, Mr Mlalane together with Fezile Ndongeni to come forward.  Mr Mlalane, you are representing Fezile Ndongeni on the matter?

MR MLALANE: I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you want to address us?  Are you going to lead the witness?  Are you going to read the statement into the record?

MR MLALANE: I am just going to make a short resume of what happened and then he is going to do the talking himself.  He can talk, he is old enough.  First of all ...

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Go ahead Mr Mlalane.

MR MLALANE: Thanks.  First of all, this matter is a matter of inquest at Alice and judgement has been reserved and the real problem is finding witnesses and this happened at night.  Apparently there were two groups of the African National Congress and the two groups were not in agreement and there is no evidence yet that my client was the leader of the other group, but is suspicious that he was probably taking a leading part and my client, as he says, was he friend of Mr Papu.  Mr Papu was actually brought by him to that area.  There was no animosity, but in the middle of the night there was this fight.  My client ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just clarify something, Mr Mlalane.  You say this matter is already before the court.

MR MLALANE: It is already before the court and judgement ...

CHAIRPERSON: And you are awaiting judgement?

MR MLALANE: We are awaiting judgement and I am appearing in the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to insist on addressing us on this matter or are you feeling that, perhaps, you are obliged to do so because we sent you a notice?  I am just afraid ...

MR MLALANE: I feel I am obliged to, otherwise, because this court does not know anything of sub-judaica.  Otherwise I would have raised that this is sub-judaica, because we are awaiting judgement in this case.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I would like to consult with the Committee quickly and, perhaps, let us come back to you, just.  Sir, you consulted us (indistinct)?

MR MLALANE: Yes I am (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct).  Mr Mlalane, that we accept and just put it on record and when we are contemplating making a finding on Mr Ndongeni we will then inform you and then you can make representation at that stage.

MR MLALANE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you sir.

MR MLALANE: May I be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-13

RHYLINE NENE: They were not asking him where he was, they were saying that there is information that he is in contact with Mr Sebe.  This is what we want to know, because we just heard that he was in Pretoria, there were no telephonic contact with him.

REV XUNDU: Were they friends with each other?

RHYLINE NENE: Except for that he was a Councillor, he would attend a meeting with them.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Ma'am.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Nene, I also want to ask you a question.  You said that this happened after the coup of 1990.  Do you remember that after the coup properties of people were burnt down, especially in the townships.
 Because businesses were burnt down.  You said this incident happened during that time?

RHYLINE NENE: Yes.  It happened during that time.

CHAIRPERSON: If I remember very well, this was done by people who called themselves comrades.  I don't know whether there were also criminals amongst those comrades.
 Your case, your incident happened because of the Ciskeian police?

RHYLINE NENE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that Mr Funani was amongst these police?

RHYLINE NENE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank both of you.  You've given us two different stories, but two very painful stories because a pain is not a pain only in one organisation, it is a pain to everybody.
 As a Commission we have to listen to all the people's stories and investigate.  We thank you for coming here and telling us your stories.  We will investigate them.
 Mrs Madikane's story is very clear because at that time ADM members were in conflict with ANC members.  We would like to investigate Mrs Nene's story, we will try to contact Mr Funani so that he can tell us what was happening at that time.
 I was not aware of such incidents done by the Ciskeian police.  We thank both of you, you may now sit down.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-13

CHAIRPERSON: We will now call Mr Smuts Ngonyama who is going to give us the political context as a person who was centrally involved in the issues which were happening here in the Border Region.  He was a leader in political organisations and NTO's.  He was also an organising secretary of the Council of Churches.
 We will ask him to give us a short picture of a political context which was prevailing at that time.  Welcome Smuts and thank you for agreeing to do this for us, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-13

CHAIRPERSON: Smuts, thank you very much.  You have given us a very broad perspective covering a very long period of struggle in this area.  You have analyzed for us the political context in which these things happened and indeed cited to us a number of very (indistinct) cases, which this Commission would not have touched, (indistinct) of this area if it doesn't deal with it.
 We are grateful that you have taken the time and that you have prepared such a useful document for our consideration.  We would of course still expect that you would give us the copies and although you have read into the record the main part of it.  Thank you very much and we are indeed most grateful to you.  Thank you.
 We will have a 15 minute break, we will come back at quarter past eleven.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-13

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngxokela, the Dr Brink you mentioned, is he the same Dr Brink we heard about in Khayalethu Hela's testimony?  Khayalethu Hela said that Dr Brink was corroborating with the police?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the same Dr Brink?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You received treatment from him?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: Yes, I received treatment from him.  He treated me and then he discharged me.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you from prison at the time?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Tiny Maya?

MS MAYA: My last question Mr Ngxokela, you said that your ribs were broken and your jaws were fractured, were you admitted in hospital?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: Yes, in Stutterheim hospital.

MS MAYA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ngxokela, the police are supposed to protect the people, is that so?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: Yes, that is so.

ADV SANDI: At the time of your incident, were they protecting people in Stutterheim?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: No, they were not protecting people.

ADV SANDI: Were they interested as the police to protect people?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: No, they were not protecting people at that time.

ADV SANDI: When I look at your testimony and the testimony from people from Stutterheim, am I mistaken to think that the police in Stutterheim at this time, were doing anything they wanted to do to people, is that so?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: Yes, that is so.

ADV SANDI: They were not prevented by anything, by anyone from doing whatever they wanted?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: They were not working according to the rules of the police?  So you can say that they were making their own laws?

MZWABANTU NGXOKELA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Ngxokela.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngxokela, we thank you for appearing before the Commission to give your testimony.
 We also understand your situation because of this assault as the Commission, we understand that.  All the cases presented before us, we investigate them trying to find out all the details so that we can make a decision of whether this person is a victim or not.
 If we found out that the person is a victim, that the person's rights have been violated, we would then be able to inform the President, this is the first step that you've given us your statement and you've given us your evidence.
 When we are making the finding, we will know what to conclude.  For now, we would like to thank you for coming before the Commission to tell us your story.
 Thank you very much Mr Ngxokela.

MR REDPATH: Mr Chairperson, I represent certain of the people implicated by this previous witness.  If I've understood the translation correctly, he has subsequently increased the number of persons as alleged perpetrators, to seven.
 That is why I have said I represent certain of them.  My position, our position in regard to this witness' evidence is the same as in regard to the previous group of witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Redpath.

MR REDPATH: As the Commission pleases.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-12

MS MAYA: Did they give you reasons to dismiss you?

SANELE WELLINGTON SINAM: No, they did not.

MS MAYA: Who was in authority in Seymour at that time?

SANELE WELLINGTON SINAM: He was Mongwe.

MS MAYA: Where is he now?

SANELE WELLINGTON SINAM: I think he is in Stutterheim.

MS MAYA: Did you retire?

SANELE WELLINGTON SINAM: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were tortured with electric shocks.  Who was doing this to you?

SANELE WELLINGTON SINAM: It was Mbagu and Mhambi, the two investigators.  It was on a Tuesday.

CHAIRPERSON: As you were a police was this a form of torture that was used?

SANELE WELLINGTON SINAM: I would just hear people crying, but at that time I can say that this kind of torture was the one used.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sinam.  We will try to contact  Mr Dorrington so that we can hear his side of the story so that we can also find out who is the investigating officer of your case.  This is a painful story.  We did not know that the police were also tortured in this way.  Maybe you will help us to find out about the things that happened in Seymour at this time when we are investigating your case.  For now, thank you Mr Sinam.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-12

MKHULULI MVUZO SIZANI: When we see each other, as I have been to that village before, I cannot even greet him, cannot say anything to him, because I am like this because of them.  I cannot bear talking to them.  My life is not as it should be as a result of their ill-treatment.

JUNE CRICHTON: My last question to you, Mr Sizani, is did you ever approach an attorney about this?

MKHULULI MVUZO SIZANI: No, I did not.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you. I am going to hand you back to the Chairperson now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sizani, there are no further questions.  Your case is clear.  We have heard your requests before the Commission.  We are quite interested, as well, that if these people have applied for amnesty we will link the cases.  I do not know if they will allow, because you say, you request that you be given some compensation from their own salaries.  People do not want this, they just want forgiveness.  We sympathise with you.  We will look carefully at your requests.  Thank you.  You may step down.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any questions?  No questions.  Mrs Sobukwe, we thank you.  Before you go down, I would like to thank you on behalf of the Commission for having come before us.  We are aware of your age, we are aware of your health, but you sacrificed, came before the Commission to give us a picture of the ill-treatment of Mr Sobukwe whilst he was in custody.  We are aware we are talking to the wife of one of the national leaders of our country and, indeed, we are honoured.  We will look carefully into your evidence.  The TRC has a special hearing that is coming up where we are going to be examining the role of the people who played a role in the medical field.  Your question we are going to put forward before these people, even the Warders that were involved.  If we have any more details that we need, especially his medical files, we will probably approach you for this information.  Thank you.