Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, turn then to the 3rd of August, page 32.  You will see it says
"Determine options around client two, friends, movements, official programme, s.o.s, social activities".
Then it sets out certain options.  Line 1 it says:
"Witchdoctor"
and then in brackets:
"Anton, medical, motor bomb, close actions, far actions, distant actions"
Now Mr Basson in other proceedings, when he first told the Court that these were options that were going to be used to recruit someone to the CCB, but under cross-examination he conceded that you can't recruit someone with a car bomb, so he then changed his evidence to admit that these were options that were being considered for the elimination of someone.  Now, I'm putting it to you that these concerned plans to eliminate certain SWAPO leaders in Namibia and that you're aware of what the details of those plans were.  Do you care to comment?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I deny it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You're aware of a plan that was made to assassinate people at the Namibia by Night Club in Windhoek.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I deny it and I will not testify about that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Okay.  Then turn to page 34, 29th of August.  You'll see at the top there's another limpet mine.
"Obtain limpet"
and this is shortly before the Early Learning Centre blast.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then page 35, 5th of October, it says
"Final co-ordination today, transfer money."
Do you have any idea what that refers to?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then on the following page, 31st of October, there's another reference to a further training course for Region 6,
"Course Region 6 for week"
What training course was this?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I was with my members, we attended a course, that was in January '89.  I have seen in the diary on 27 August, there was such an entry in the diary about a course and now again.  It may be that something like that was planned, but it was not executed where I was present.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Wasn't it Mr van Zyl's version that at the time that he resigned, that another course had been scheduled?  He was about to go on another training course?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It's possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you're saying you're aware of some training course that was scheduled but for one or other reason, it never happened, but you can't tell us why?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I didn't attend the course, I don't know if it took place, but it's possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: By why would you not know if you were the manager?  I would imagine you would be integrally involved in the process of the further education and training of the members of Region 6.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: At that stage all activities, all projects, executive projects had been abandoned in Region 6.   It was the order of the Managing Director, no project had to be executed or planned as from that point, even before that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is this because of the changeover from the PW Botha regime to the FW de Klerk regime?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But Gen Webb denies that any such thing every happened.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: The order was very clear to me from the Managing Director that all internal projects and operations had to be abandoned, we had to rationalise also in the external regions and as little production and project files as possible had to be active.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you get the impression while you were in Region 6 that Joe Verster was far more in control of the CCB than Gen Webb was?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think that's not a fair question in the sense that I have respect for both members, but to be honest, I think Gen Webb was in 1989, with the appointment, as the Afrikaans proverb says, he was thrown into the deep end and from a conventional situation he moved over to a covert operation and yes, my impressions were that Col Verster was better informed and he was more up to date and he had more experience in the workings of a covert organisation.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, I also get the impression from having listened to both of their evidence, that Col Verster had different views to Gen Webb about the extent to which one might engage in assassinations inside South Africa.  What was your view?  What did you pick up while you were in the CCB?  Were there differences of opinion?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Between?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Webb and Verster about the extent to which the Security Forces might be used to assassinate people inside the country.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't comment on that.  I was never present at Webb and Verster's discussions.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Except that you and Col Verster went back a long way.  I assume you had conversations from time to time?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But he never discussed with you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Now, if you turn to your amnesty application, but before you do so, were you aware - you gave evidence at the Webster Inquest, you've already admitted that, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You must have been aware of the fact that at that inquest, Gen Webb denied that he ever authorised Omar and Evans?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  Could you then turn to your amnesty application, bundle A, page 134?  You're asked on that page to make entries as to whether the acts that you're applying for amnesty for were carried out with the approval of any particular body and then in paragraph (b) on that page, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: 11(b).

MR KAHANOVITZ: 11(b), it says
"If so, state particulars of such order or approval and the names of the persons who gave such order or approval"
and you'll see - is that your handwriting or your lawyer's handwriting?

UNKNOWN: I may just say it's not mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose handwriting is it then?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is mine.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You've heard, by the time you fill in this form, that Gen Webb denies that he authorised Omar and Evans, yet you state here in terms that Gen Webb approved these projects.  Would you care to explain?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Well that was my assumption that I made and the line of command and the structure on which the authorisations were done.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But why don't you put in the facts as you know them, as opposed to the inferences which you seek to draw?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Well, Mr Verster told me that it had been authorised.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but you knew that Gen Webb had denied, in a Court of Law, that he'd given approval for these projects, don't you think you should have drawn that to the Amnesty Committee's attention?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think on their respective applications, they would have become aware of that, of Webb and Verster's applications I'm referring to, but as far as I'm concerned, the line of command that I was concerned with, that was the structure of command which was followed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger, you had no idea ...(intervention)

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't tell you  Gen Webb is lying, or Mr Verster is lying.  As far as I'm concerned this order had been authorised from somewhere above and that is how I indicated it here.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You are no doubt aware that if the Chairman of the CCB claims that the projects were never authorised, that creates problems for you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Well, I don't think for me because my order came from the Managing Director.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, if you turn the page to page 135, there's a question, it says
"Are civil proceedings pending or envisaged as a result of the acts in respect of which amnesty is sought?"
And your answer there:
"Not applicable."
I take it that you're not asking then for indemnity against civil proceedings?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.