Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR STEPHENS: Okay well I was saying a security uniform is what I meant.

MR BERGER: Let's just get one thing clear Mr Stephens, you did not see this man come out of Shell House, am I correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct I would say, yes.  If you're being specific about that, yes.

MR BERGER: I'm using the words used by you in your affidavit.

MR STEPHENS: Well I - during the day I had seen him come out there, yes.  But I couldn't say at that time specifically that he had come out the ANC - or out of Shell House.

MR BERGER: All you saw according ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: ...(indistinct)

MR BERGER: Sorry?

MR STEPHENS: Then it would be no.

MR BERGER: All you saw according to you was the last 5 metres from an easterly direction towards the corner of Plein and King George.

MR STEPHENS: Correct, 5/10 metres, yes.

MR BERGER: He stood there at the pillar and it was just the two of them, the ANC guard and the Policeman next to each other on the corner, no-one else was around them.

MR STEPHENS: At the pillar itself, no, just the two of them.

MR BERGER: No-one else was near them at that corner, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct, that's at the pillar.

MR BERGER: At the corner Mr Stephens, no-one was there at the corner other than this ANC guard and the Policeman?

MR STEPHENS: How far away from the corner do you mean, at the corner itself?  Because if it's at the corner itself at the pillar I'd say no, but if it was at the corner - because you've got two corners, you've got the pillar here, and you've got the corner here, which is another 2/3 metres wide, and there some of them were standing and some of them were standing at the entrance.  I'm talking now about supposedly I took it as ANC guards, I took it as that.  They weren't in any uniform, they were in plain clothes, but they had handguns.

MR BERGER: The ANC guards you are talking about are the guards who were in Plein Street outside the entrance to Shell House?

MR STEPHENS: Correct, at the entrance as well as close to the corner.  But at the corner itself, at the pillar, it was only that I - well you're saying that there is no uniform for the ANC guard, a security guard with an assault rifle is the only ones that I saw at the pillar, which I took as the corner.

MR BERGER: Let me put it this way then Mr Stephens, the only two people at the corner of Plein and King George who could have seen the marchers coming down towards De Villiers Street would have been this ANC guard with the AK47 rifle, and the Policeman standing next to him, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Well they definitely could see them.

MR BERGER: The ANC guard standing outside the entrance to Shell House in Plein Street could not possibly have seen a crowd gathering at the corner of King George and De Villiers, agree?

MR STEPHENS: No, they knew that they were there because they were up and down the whole time.  That's why I said they weren't in one specific space all the time, they were moving up and down.  But at that time when the shooting started, there was only the Policeman and the ANC security - well I took it as okay, the security guard that was standing there, that's all that I knew at that specific time.  Before that, 20 seconds before it, 10 seconds before it, the guys were moving up and down, so they knew exactly what was happening.  But when the shots started, there was only the guard there and the Policeman.  Ten ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: While they were outside, sorry.

MR STEPHENS: Ten seconds before, 15 seconds before, they could have been there, but when the shooting started, that's when I looked up and saw, and I only saw the Policeman and the security guard there, I never saw anybody else.

CHAIRPERSON: This much is clear, that those that you say were moving towards the corner and back towards the entrance, let's talk about them.  Whilst they were outside the entrance, they couldn't have seen the marchers, that's quite clear isn't it?

MR STEPHENS: Quite correct, if they - when they were at the entrance they couldn't see the marchers, which is quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the picture that you have in your mind is that some of them were moving backwards and forwards.

MR STEPHENS: Yes, they were, the whole time, standing in groups having a chat, moving back towards the corner to see what was happening, and moving back toward the entrance again.

CHAIRPERSON: This might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment.  We'll adjourn for 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS 
ON RESUMPTION

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, the evidence that you've given this morning about it's possible that 15 or 10 seconds before the shooting, there were ANC guards on the corner of Plein and King George was simply not given by you at the inquest.

MR STEPHENS: Maybe it wasn't asked, because I was talking at the time of the shooting, I wasn't talking like I said, a little time before, a little time after, it was just - the moment the shooting started, there was a Policeman and a guard there, that's all that I can recall.

MR BERGER: Well I'll just summarise your evidence at the inquest very briefly.  At pages 2521 to 2522 you were - I see you have your evidence there.

MR STEPHENS: Ja.

MR BERGER: 2521 in the middle of the page, you saw a guard coming from the direction of the entrance of Shell House; you saw the Policeman, you didn't know where the Policeman came from.  Then over the page you said that ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Like I said over here as well, it says "coming from the direction of the entrance hall", I didn't specifically say, because I probably at that stage didn't actually see him coming out of the entrance itself.

MR BERGER: And then you said at the top of 2522 that the Policeman was standing at the right-hand side of the guard, he was standing at the pillar;  you said that the guard was right next to the Policeman, and then I said to you: "And at that stage it was only the two of them on the corner?".

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And your answer was you can actually recall it, you've got Small Street, Plein and then it becomes King George and Plein.  So in other words they are on the corner of King George and Plein like you said, on the easterly side.  And then I said to you
"Yes, and there is no-one else around them, it is just the two of them?"
		Answer:  "Basically, yes."

MR STEPHENS: Yes, basically yes.  Because basically because at the corner itself it was just the two of them.  If you're talking a couple of metres away, the other guards could have been there.  Look here, this happened four years ago, my mind is not - you know, it's something I think about everyday.  My main focus was on the guard and the Policeman and the marchers, whether they were two metres away, five metres away, I can't recall 100%.  That's why I said "basically, yes".

MR BERGER: You see again Mr Stephens, on this point your evidence stands alone.  Nobody, no other witness puts the guard and this Policeman alone on the corner at the critical time of the shooting.

MR STEPHENS: Well I'm just saying as I saw it.  At that stage I saw the guard and I saw the Policeman, that's why I said basically that's all I saw at that time.

MR BERGER: Just to go back to the other incident where your evidence stands alone, about the marchers gathering at the corner of King George and Noord for approximately  1/2  hour, not even the marchers support you on that.

MR STEPHENS: What do they say?

MR BERGER: They say they came from Park Station, they split into two groups, some came ...(inaudible), others came along De Villiers Street, and they converged at the corner, at the intersection of De Villiers and King George.  None of them talk about gathering up there in Noord Street for approximately  1/2  hour.  All of them say that they alighted from the train at Park Station and proceeded directly in the direction of Shell House.