Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-06

WITNESS:   We were taken to Ulundi and brought back.  The were given the title of detective sergeants and we were posted to different chiefs and we were told that we should guard those chiefs.  I was posted in Maritzburg, that's where I was working.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... certificate showing that you are a detective sergeant in the police.  Had you been through the police training college and received any courses on how to be a detective?

WITNESS:   No, I didn't.

MR MACADAM: Had you, prior to being issued with the certificate, held the rank of constable in the police?

WITNESS:   I was never a detective.

MR MACADAM: Once you had the certificate indicating that you were a detective sergeant, did you investigate any criminal cases, take statements from witnesses, arrest suspects and warn them in terms of Judges' Rules, or not?

WITNESS:   No, we didn't do such things.

MR MACADAM: Were you receiving a salary from any source at that stage?

WITNESS:   Yes, from the Inkatha offices.

MR MACADAM: Did you receive a salary from the KwaZulu Police at that stage?

WITNESS:   No, it was from the Inkatha offices.

MR MACADAM: And did you have any firearm in your possession at this stage once you had obtained the certificate?

WITNESS:   Yes, we were given firearms, because we had the way to dodge the police.

MR MACADAM: Now what type of firearms did you have?

WITNESS:   We

MR MACADAM: /had

MR MACADAM: 1B had R1s, ... (inaudible) ... shotguns.  It all depended on a particular place where you were supposed to be posted in and the intensity of violence in that particular area.

MR MACADAM: Where did these firearms come from?

WITNESS:   They were from the KwaZulu Police Station.

MR MACADAM: How did you acquire them?

WITNESS:   We got them from the police station.

MR MACADAM: Could you just explain in more detail how you managed to acquire them from the police station?

WITNESS:   There was one sergeant by the name of Zuma.  He is the one who handed the guns to us at the time when they were posting us to go and protect the Indunas.

MR MACADAM: And what did you do with these firearms?

WITNESS:   We took them with us and went to our respective posts.

MR MACADAM: And thereafter?

WITNESS:   After that, I think we went to Maritzburg, because there was intensive fighting there, therefore when you go out, you need not necessarily have to carry a firearm because at the time the ANC ... (intervention)

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, we didn't get the last part of it.  We did not get the last part of his statement, the witness' statement.

WITNESS:   We were given the firearms and we went to Pietermaritzburg.  That's the place where we were supposed to work.  We stayed there, because there was a fight, people were fighting.  At night if there was a chance, we will go out to hit or attack the UDF people.

MR MACADAM: If you can - I want to clarify certain aspects.  Firstly you said you went to areas where there was violence.  What caused you to go to those areas?

WITNESS:  Those were the places where - under a lot of Indunas in such areas.

MR MACADAM: /Was

MR MACADAM: 1B Was it your own decision that you made of your own accord to go there, on your own initiative or did somebody else influence you to go there?  Can you just explain to us what exactly the position was?

WITNESS:   Madlanduna was always in contact with the people at the police station at Mpumalanga and he is the person who deployed as to those places where we had to go and work.

MR MACADAM: Right.  And you then said you took part in various attacks.  Can you explain in more detail what these attacks were?

WITNESS:   We entered houses and shooting people inside those houses and then you have to run and go back to your place after doing that.

MR MACADAM: You say, "We did this".  Who was with you in these attacks?

WITNESS:   There were people who were with me.  Trevor Nene was one of them.

MR MACADAM: I don't need you to give names of specific individuals, but were they for example people that had grown up in the Hammarsdale area?  Could they have possibly been people that were trained with you in this place that you went to from Ulundi, or who exactly were they?  What type of people were they?

WITNESS:   They were people with whom I was trained at Caprivi.

MR MACADAM: And what prompted you to carry out these attacks, you and these others?

WITNESS:   We were trained and we knew that we were trained to kill only.  There wasn't anything that we knew.  Our enemy, the UDF, was operating in those area where we were working, therefore if you happened to meet a UDF member you have to shoot.

MR MACADAM: Did you have specific orders from any persons or individuals to carry out those attacks?

WITNESS:   Yes.  Madlanduna used to give us instructions that if ever we

MR MACADAM: /are

MR MACADAM: 1B are attacked we have to attack back.

MR MACADAM: And over what period did this take place?  If you can give an indication.  Was it a matter of years or months or weeks?

WITNESS:   I would say it's about a month.

MR MACADAM: Can you give us an indication of approximately how many of these attacks you were involved in?

WITNESS:   I would say, I'm referring to Pietermaritzburg only, because after that while I was there I got injured.

MR MACADAM: Now referring specifically to Pietermaritzburg, can you give an indication of how many attacks you yourself took part in?

WITNESS:   Many times in the particular area where I was deployed.  That's where I got injured.

MR MACADAM: Yes, but can you answer my question, to indicate approximately how many attacks?

WITNESS:   I can say approximately three times.  I don't remember well.

MR MACADAM: And you've just said you became injured in one of these attacks.  Can you tell us exactly what transpired there?

WITNESS:   I got injured.  We were shooting, it was cross-fires, we were shooting the soldiers.  I had to go to hospital and I stayed in hospital for about six months.  I was discharged and I went back home and thereafter I was taken to Ulundi.

MR MACADAM: I just want you to go through what you've just told us in more detail.  You described that you were injured.  Who injured you?

WITNESS:   It was the SADF which was guarding the surrounding area.

MR MACADAM: You said you were taken to hospital.  By whom?

WITNESS:  I don't remember, because I lost consciousness after the injury and I just discovered myself lying in hospital.

MR MACADAM: Were you arrested or not in connection with this incident?

WITNESS:   I wasn't arrested.

MR MACADAM: /MR   (?)

MR MACADAM: 1B MR   (?):   Mr Chairman, I'm terribly sorry, but could I request that perhaps the witness just be asked what had happened there?  We are left in the air all the time as to what was going on.  He says he was shot by the SADF.  How did it come about, what was he there?  What was it about?  It would be very helpful if we could have some sort of background to make sense of this evidence, Mr Chairman.  I don't want to criticise by saying this, but we're just interested in trying to put some flesh on to this evidence.

MR MACADAM: Mr Dlamini, if you could then give us more detail on this incident where you said you were shot by the SADF.  Tell us exactly what took place there.

WITNESS:   There was some fighting in the particular area where I was deployed and the police - soldiers were patrolling the area together with police.  I got out of the place where I were and I went to just near a place.  It was at night.  I was armed and there we had a shoot-out.  We had a shoot-out with the soldiers, we shot at each other and they injured me on my foot.  I lose consciousness and I ended up in hospital.

MR MACADAM: Who are these persons that you say were with you when the shoot-out took place?