Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Planning done by the police was done by Brigadier Ngcobo and Major Simms.  Major Simms was in charge of the Riot Unit and Brigadier Ngcobo was in his capacity as such overall in charge of the Riot Unit.  As Lieutenant General I delegated my powers and I had full confidence in their decisions and arrangements.
 The responsibility of the Ciskean Police was to ensure that order would be maintained in the rest of the Ciskei.  All the members could therefore not be involved for duty in Bisho.  Road blockades were set up on all the routes leading to Bisho.  These responsibilities meant that only the riot unit was used to man the route to Bisho.  It also meant that arrangements were made for erecting razor wire across the road.  There were no arrangements of any kind for the police to be responsible for keeping the marchers out of the stadium.  Soldiers were deployed within the stadium since the Ciskei government were determined that the march to Bisho and the occupation of Bisho would not take place.
 I want to make it very clear that the Ciskei Police were responsible for the main road from King Williamstown to Bisho.  Whilst the negotiations were taking place at the border, negotiations by Antonie Gildenhuys and Mr Hall with the leaders of the march I was standing there not in my capacity as commanding officer but rather to give moral support to the handful of policemen on duty there, while I was standing there I saw how Mr Kasrils pulled the razor wire, I couldn't hear what he was saying but when permission was granted for them to enter the stadium I then, when he 
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entered through the southern gate of the stadium I saw that he was motioning to the crowd to follow him.  I then saw that he was not entering the stadium by means of the entrance tunnels but that he was running along the wire in a north-easterly direction.  He disappeared from view and shortly afterwards I heard shots.  It would have been fatal to withdraw the riot unit at the point where they were doing duty and to deploy them elsewhere.  Everything happened very unexpectedly and since there had been negotiations and everybody assumed that the leaders of the marchers would be as good as their word.  If permission had not been given for them to enter the stadium I am convinced that the Ciskei Police would have been able to handle the situation on the tarred road as far as the group of people were concerned.  They were trained and ready for any eventuality at that point where everybody suspected that the crowd would try and break through.  I can't see how the Ciskei Police could be held responsible for a fence which had been flattened during a previous march.  
 I want to mention once again that provision had been made that marchers would not be allowed to enter the Ciskei.  I had nothing to do with the deployment of the Defence Force and if I had been in charge of all the members they surely would first have obtained my permission before opening fire unless their members' lives were in immediate danger.
 I also want to mention that I had nothing to do with the negotiations on the scene, seeing that was not one of my duties.  People were appointed to do that.  I can't remember that I made any statements in the Press.
 Chairperson I just want to mention that if some of these statements I've made sound a little bit strange, that 
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is what was put to me by the Investigating Officers so I just assumed that these allegations were in fact made and my answers must be seen in that light.

MR POTGIETER: Is that the evidence you would like to submit?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes, that's all I have to say Chairperson.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much General Viktor.  I will just enquire from my colleagues on the panel whether there are any questions to General Viktor, the submission.  Advocate Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Good afternoon General Viktor, can I ask how long have you been in the police force?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: With the Ciskean service nearly 45 years.

MR SANDI: That is to say that you are a very experienced police officer?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I think so.

MR SANDI: You were in the Ciskei as the head of the police unit since when did you become the head of the police in the Ciskei?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: It was, if I remember correctly the 1st of April 1991 and I resigned in April 1992.  My service was up till December 1992.

MR SANDI: Were you one of the officials seconded by the government of South Africa to the Ciskei?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I have said so in my statement.

MR SANDI: How did the invitation come to you?  Were you asked to go and work in the Ciskei or did you personally express an interest to come and work in the Ciskei Police Force?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No I was asked by the then Commissioner of
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Police General van der Merwe.  He contacted me on my farm and he asked me whether I would be prepared to go to the Ciskei.  I was on pension already.

MR SANDI: This morning we were told by the former Minister of Law and Order in the RSA Mr Hernus Kriel that people generally were not interested to come and work in the Ciskei because of the problems that existed at the time, do you have any knowledge of that?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Well I don't know of any programmes or what you call programmes ...(intervention)

MR SANDI: Problems.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Pardon?

MR SANDI: He said there were problems, there were serious problems in the police force.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Oh problems?

MR SANDI: Yes.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No I don't think I was told of any problems here.  I was just asked to come and take over the Ciskei Police, which I did.

MR SANDI: Thank you so far.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Thank you.

MR POTGIETER: Are there an other questions.  I will start with Reverend Xundu.

REV XUNDU: On page 3 of your memorandum you indicate that your instructions were that only teargas canisters be fired from rifles and rubber bullets, is that correct?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is the drill of the Police.  That is how we go through a riot situation.

REV XUNDU: And you further say in number 13, that no bullets, you checked with the police and there were no bullets which were fired by the police?
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JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is correct.

REV XUNDU: Where do you assume the bullets came from that were shot at the people?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Well I don't think it's a secret that the firing was done by the Ciskean Defence Force.

REV XUNDU: And not by the Ciskei Police?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Not by the Ciskei Police.

REV XUNDU: You were in charge of the Police force of the Ciskei weren't you?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Just repeat that please?

REV XUNDU: In your duties of being in charge of the police force you were also in charge of the units of the security police of the Ciskei?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Security police?

REV XUNDU: Yes.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: The security branch of the Ciskean police, there have never been any security police in South Africa either, it's a branch of the police.

REV XUNDU: We mean the same thing.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Maybe.

REV XUNDU: They mean the same thing.  So you were in charge?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is correct.  It's not a different force.

REV XUNDU: And in the arrangements running up for the march you were aware that the ANC and its alliance was in South Africa and out of South Africa making marches to demand their freedom?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes that is so.