Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, I would like to see where it is at page 24 or 25 because a don't read the word Cronje there.
    I'm not saying that he didn't say that he didn't say so in his evidence, that's not at all what I'm saying.

ADV MEMANI: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I put it wrongly again.  It's Mtyhala, Cronje and the applicant and Mamome was not there.

ADV DE JAGER: Not the applicant, the witness.

MR MEMAME: The applicant, Mr Ngo, Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: Repeat the names, who was in this car?

ADV MEMANI: In the vehicle it was Mtyhala, Cronje, Ngo, in one vehicle.

MR VISSER: So my learned friend is making it absolutely clear that he's instructions now are that Mr Motsomi wasn't present. Is that what I must understand from what he's putting, Mr Chairman?

ADV MEMANI: I don't think you want to be taken seriously, we are talking about what you've just put. About the names that you have just used now. I'm telling you that in the vehicle in which Ngo was there were Cronje and Mtyhala and that's different from what you put.  That's what I'm ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But what he is putting is what appears in the application, he is reading from the application.  He is not varying it he is reading the application which was made.

ADV MEMANI: I'm not sure now, Mr Chairman, whether the application says that in the vehicle that Ngo was travelling there was anybody else except Mtyhala and Cronje.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should read the application and so see that Mr Visser is correctly reading it.

ADV MEMANI: He hasn't referred us, where is he referring to, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: The application, pages 24 and 25.

MR VISSER: It's right at the foot of the page.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Chairman, you will recall that there was evidence.  The evidence that was lead specifically about the car, was that Cronje was Cronje was the person who was there.

CHAIRPERSON: He is not talking about the evidence that was lead Mr Memane, he is talking about the application and that is what he is putting to the witness.

ADV MEMANI: But, Mr Chairman, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He is not alleged, not made any reference evidence that was led.

ADV MEMANI: But then also then, if you go by what you say, there's no specific reference to a vehicle in this passage.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand what you are talking about, Mr Memane. Mr Visser is asking this witness - is putting to this witness what appears in the amnesty application lodged by Mr Ngo and asking him to comment on it.

ADV MEMANI: But when he does so Mr Chairman he must put the entire version correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: He has put, as far as I know.  What has he not put?

ADV MEMANI: Maybe I made a mistake.  What is it that being put, exactly, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: What has he not put?  What are you objecting to that you say he has not what appears in the application?

ADV MEMANI: You see my understanding Mr Chairman, is that this kidnapping was was conducted by people, different people who were in different vehicles and at different times joined together - but were later jointed together at a later stage.
    And what I'm saying is that at material times Ngo would say that he was with Mtyhala and Cronje in a vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Visser has not asked this witness about being in a vehicle with them?  He hasn't mentioned that has he?

ADV MEMANI: Presumably, Mr Chairman, he's saying - My understanding is that he's saying that the ...[inaudible] with the witness, prior to them arriving at the veld where Mr Mohape was being beaten up.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, am I wrong?  Have you not just been reading what appears in the application?

MR VISSER: Nothing more and nothing less, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The precise words.  What is your objection Mr Memane?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, if he's just reading the application for the sake of reading then that's fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Carry on.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Well, I'm not quite sure what the last question was, but let me try to pick it up like this Mr Tsoametsi.
    The allegation is that yourself and Mr Mamome took Mr White Mohape to a veld between Bloemspruit and Shannon and that there they were joined by Motsamai, Mtyhala and Ngo, where all five of you beat up Mr White Mohape.  Hammers and crowbars, now what do you say of that evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, not ...[intervention]

MR TSOAMETSI: That is not true, it is a lie what Ngo is saying. I know nothing about hammers and crowbars and the kidnapping of Mohape.

MR VISSER: Mr Tsoametsi, last week you were requested, while you here in the Commission hall, to stand up so that the commission could look at you and I think you were described as stoutish person.  How would you describe yourself, your body build?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is true, I am stout.

MR VISSER: And, since when did it happen that you became stout?  Sorry, for how long has your body build been the same as it is today?

MR TSOAMETSI: Since long time ago I've been stout, Sir, I've never been thin.

MR VISSER: Mr Tsoametsi, we can then go on to - page 27 Mr Chairman, of bundle A.
	 It is suggested, alleged that at the time when the 19 comrades were brought to Bloemfontein, we know it was the 6th of April 1986, it is alleged that you and Warrant Officer Ramosoeu, - page 29, Mr Chairman, told Mtyhala and Ngo that they should drink two and a half litres of water to force the comrades to drink, two bottles each.
    Now, first of all, is that true?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is not true, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything to do with the 19 comrades who were transferred from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein in 1986, Mr Tsoametsi?

MR TSOAMETSI: No, no contact at all.

MR VISSER: If anybody said that you had anything to do with their torture and assault, what would you say about that?

MR TSOAMETSI: That person would be lying, Sir.

MR VISSER: Reference to page 31, Mr Chairman.
	It is furthermore alleged that there was a group of people, a large group of 40  or more comrades who were students who were arrested at Botshabelo and the security branch members from Bloemfontein were involved in that.  And at page 34 of Mr Ngo's application, he alleges that members of the security branch Bloemfontein who participated personally and physically in the beating and torturing of all these comrades are - and your name is number four on that list.  He says you personally and physically beat and tortured those comrades. What do you say about that?

MR TSOAMETSI: Sir, that is not true because I explained that I was working in the white section, now, I've never worked once in Botshabelo.

MR VISSER: Lastly, if it's alleged that you had anything to do with the assault on the home of Citi Mzuzwana, what would you say about that?

MR TSOAMETSI: I would say it's a lie.

MR VISSER: In short Mr Tsoametsi, if it is alleged by any of the applicants that you committed any illegal or unlawful act, what do you say about that.

MR TSOAMETSI: I would say he is lying.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm just going to refer you to D, The Offence, D at page 25 and particularly at page 26, ja page 26.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what?

MR VISSER: Of bundle A.  And I'm not going to lead any evidence Mr Chairman, because frankly I don't quite understand whether this witness is being implicated.  I will leave him now for cross-examination.
    Perhaps just one last question.  Do you know that Mr Ngo left to Hamanskraal Police college in July of 1986?

MR TSOAMETSI: I not remember the month but I know he disappeared.

MR VISSER: After he left Bloemfontein, did you ever have anything else to do with him?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the house of Max Makuba?