Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We have already been told as to how Mr CaswellQweqwe was involved pertaining to the use of his kombis.  Do youknow any other activity from his part as support to the 3 milliongang?

B J MPONDO: That is the only part he played, that Iknow of.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Further on your application, page 5, whenanswering the question as to who gave the order to commit thecrime, I want to believe is the killing of Tsietsie Leboko, youanswered by saying
  "Mr Mashaba Petros Thulu".
Do you remember that?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I can remember that, but I explainedthat Comrade Thulo was a General Commander in the SDU.   In thiscase he never gave me any instructions.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why did you give such an answer to such aclear question as to who gave the command to do what you did,if he did not?

B J MPONDO: Comrade Thulo gave us the instruction thatwe have to protect the Maokeng community and the members of theANC and that's what he told us as our general Commander.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am going to move to your supplementary affidavit,page 2 thereof the first paragraph, and I will quote for you
  "My arrest and convicted arises out of the killing of TsietsieLeboko who was a member of the 3 million gang".
Then you say:
  "An ostensibly criminal gang which became affiliated toIFP".
Do you remember that?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I can remember very well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is it that made you come to the conclusionthat the 3 million gang had affiliated to Inkatha Freedom Party?

B J MPONDO: One day when these people were going tobury one of their members, they used the Inkatha flags.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On how many occasions did you see this happen?

B J MPONDO: On numerous occasions.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many times?

B J MPONDO: I can't remember well, but it happened onnumerous occasions.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Besides seeing the flags, is there any otherthing that made you come to the conclusion that they were IFP?

B J MPONDO: Yes, there is.  It happened sometimes thatwhen you are in court these people would have Inkatha badges onthem and one day one of the members of (indistinct) who was BoetieKrag(?) called me whilst we were still in court and he showedme his membership card of Inkatha.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We listened to the evidence earlier on thatthe political organisations that were operative in the area wereANC, PAC and perhaps Apla and it was said that Inkatha was notoperative in the area.

B J MPONDO: Yes, it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now how could they have affiliated to IFP whenno IFP existed in Maokeng?

B J MPONDO: I really can't explain how they came tosay they were Inkatha members.  There was no day on which I heardthat Inkatha was coming to launch a branch there at Maokeng.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want to believe that you will agree with methat then the allegation by the 3 million gang members and yourobservation about IFP may have been unfounded?

B J MPONDO: No, it is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Still on your supplementary affidavit, page3 thereof, the last paragraph, you said the following
  "We had evidence that the gang was fostered by some membersof the SAP, as a surrogate akin to the "witdoeke" andBlack Cats which has caused a reign of terror in black townships".
Do you remember that?

B J MPONDO: I don't understand your question.  May you
please repeat the question?  I don't understand anything aboutthe Black Cats.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will repeat the quotation.  Page 3, Mr Chairman,of the supplementary affidavit, the last paragraph.  I am toldit is page 25 of the index
  "We had evidence that the gang was fostered by some membersof the SAP, as a surrogate akin to the  "witdoeke" andBlack Cat which has caused a reign of terror in black townships".

B J MPONDO: The police members were the ones who weresupporting the 3 million gang and they were also protecting them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How do you connect the operations of the 3 milliongang with "witdoeke" and the Black Cats?

B J MPONDO: There is no way these two groups come together.Really there is no way they come together.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were these two forces, "witdoeke"and Black Cats operative in Maokeng area?

B J MPONDO: The "witdoeke" were the membersof the SDU who were staying at Gelukwaarts(?).  They were theyouths who always had white bands on their heads and then we usedto call them the "witdoeke".

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were they formed by the SAP?

B J MPONDO: I don't know.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Mpondo, I am reading from your own affidavit.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Mpshe, I don't think that is what heis saying in his affidavit.   He is comparing the organisations,not at the level of their formation, but the fact of their activities. Like the "witdoeke" they sought terror.  He is notsaying that like the "witdoeke" they were formed bythe police.   He is not comparing these movements
or organisations at the formation level, but he is comparing theeffect they had on the community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, I stand indebted to you, Sir, but he hasjust responded to one of my questions that the "witdoeke"was an organisation or consisted of members of the SDU and theywere called "witdoeke" because they were wearing whitedoeks apparently.  I think that answer from him, if I am correct,bring a different perspective to me.  Because the paragraph reads
  "As a surrogate akin ..."
similar to.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Not in the sense that they have both beenfostered by the SAP.  Not in that sense.   But in the sense ofreigning terror.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  I stand corrected.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: Do you remember making an affidavit beforeyour attorney on the 29th June of this year?  Do you rememberthat?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I remember that.

JUDGE WILSON: And was it the truth that you said thereand which you swore to?

B J MPONDO: Yes, it was the truth.

JUDGE WILSON: In that affidavit you said that the deceasedcame to your house with an unknown member of the 3 million gangon the 11th May, do you remember that?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I remember that, but I said I madea mistake with the date.  It was on the 4th May.

JUDGE WILSON: You said
  "He claimed to have resigned from the gang but it laterbecame known to us that he had come to set
  me up for an attack by the 3 million gang".
Do you remember saying that?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I can remember, but ....

JUDGE WILSON: And you then said
  "When I went with him to the Command of my Unit in ...Maokeng, we were told that he had just alighted from a kombi fullof gang members".
Do you remember saying that?

B J MPONDO: What was said by the girl who came to mewho found me at home ...

JUDGE WILSON: You said in your affidavit you went withhim to the Command of your Unit.  Did you go with him to the Commandof your Unit?

B J MPONDO: No, I took him to the other comrades sothat he can tell them what's happening about him, but we didn'tget those comrades.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you say in your affidavit that youtook him to the Command of your Unit?

B J MPONDO: I was taking him to our leaders but we didn'tfind them there.

JUDGE WILSON: And you then went on to say
  "Our Intelligence informed us that he had been instructedto lure me to a spot where I would be alone and where I wouldthen be stalked and killed".  
Do you remember saying that?

B J MPONDO: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Who is your Intelligence who told you this?

B J MPONDO: That's what came from our minds.

JUDGE WILSON: You said your Intelligence, right.  Yousay this is what happened, which you've told us nothing aboutat
all in your evidence today, have you?

B J MPONDO: I don't understand the question.

JUDGE WILSON: You have not mentioned anything about himhaving been instructed to lure you to a spot where you would bealone and where you would be stalked and killed.  You have saidno word of that, have you?

B J MPONDO: I still don't understand which person youare talking about.