Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

MR LAX: You used the word "gebooi" and it made sense to me that you would actually handcuff her.  I mean, to me it would be second nature, if you wanted to transport somebody from point A to point B, you'd handcuff them and yes, you'd probably blindfold them as well.   That way they wouldn't pose any threat to anybody in the back of the vehicle, they'd sit quietly.  I mean I'm frankly surprised you didn't handcuff her.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: She was not cuffed, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So how did she not, why didn't she pull off the blindfold then?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Probably in the manner or the circumstances in which she was taken, she was overpowered and the number of people involved, it was not done.

MR LAX: In any event, she got to the shooting range, the blindfold was removed.  Did she fight at that stage?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, the blindfold was not removed, she was blindfolded all the time.  That is my recollection of her presence there.

MR LAX: While she was being assaulted, she was blindfolded?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is my recollection, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now, we've established that on your version there wasn't any conflict with the Vlakplaas people at all.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No.

MR LAX: Did the Vlakplaas unit get withdrawn soon after this incident?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I think it was only days afterwards, Chairperson.  Exactly how long, I cannot recall.  Maybe Col Baker might be able to shed some light.

MR LAX: Coetzer didn't withdraw his unit as is suggested in his...

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Definitely not, he was under our command.

MR LAX: And if one reads Coetzer's evidence, or Coetzer's statement  together with de Kock's statement, de Kock didn't order such withdrawal as far as you're aware?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that's what I read Chairperson.

MR LAX: I mean, you dispute that version, because if you read the two versions together, that's the implication.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: Did you actually know where her home was?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I knew it was in kwaMashu but the exact address, I think her address was known, because we had a file on her.

MR LAX: kwaMashu's a huge place.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.  If I recall correctly, it was in G Sections.  The Khubeka family was a well-known activist family.  There was a history about them and there was a complete record kept about their activities.

MR LAX: When you ordered Wasserman and du Preez to go and drop the body near her home, you must have told them the address?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: They knew what the address was and where she lived.  I think the reference to their address was in the vicinity or the surroundings of the place where she lived.

MR LAX: But if it was G Section for example or whatever, they would have known that and you either would have told them or you would have assumed they knew that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, if I specifically said in G Section, but the address, according to me, was known by both of them.

MR LAX: If I put myself in your shoes at that time, because of your stated intention in dumping the body, you wanted the body to be found.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Correct.

MR LAX: And so, thinking the way you appear to think, you would have, that would have been the kind of detail you probably would have taken care of in your briefing of them.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson, but one has to accept that when, with persons who are familiar with the surroundings in kwaMashu, they will use their own discretion.

MR LAX: You  don't remember whether she had a handbag with her?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Why didn't you apply any form of first aid, any CPU, any mouth to mouth resuscitation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Firstly there was no pulse, secondly W/O Basson placed a mirror close to her mouth and nose and there was no indication that she was breathing.  In my opinion, she had already been dead after she urinated.

MR LAX: You went to the trouble of getting, having water brought in to throw over her, what I don't understand is, you went to that trouble, but you didn't bother to try and apply any other first aid?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, when one faints, what is the first reaction that you try to get that person back to their positive, you throw water.  That was my first reaction.

MR LAX: And if someone's not breathing, you apply mouth to mouth resuscitation.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In my opinion the moment when she urinated and from my experience, then that person is dead.  I was present at the previous instances where a person had died of a heart attack and he urinated and in my opinion it was a heart attack that she died from and nothing else was applied.

MR LAX: So you're not aware that it is possible, people have been revived using CPU for example and mouth to mouth resuscitation.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, it's possible.

MR LAX: That is why these methods are taught.  I mean that's the object of first aid, isn't it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, just one or two questions.  Did Ms Khubeka have any form of identification on her that day as far as you know?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I can really not recall what she had in her possession.

CHAIRPERSON: There was - you mentioned something, if you could just explain it to me, that sometime later there was information about Tryfinia and the deceased having left the Republic and go into Mozambique.  Can you just explain that again please?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, the Security Branch in Durban had a large staff and specific members were deployed, for example to only work in the black residential areas for the purpose of intelligence gathering and investigation and so forth and those people who were deployed to kwaMashu in the northern sections on occasion had heard from their informers, had reported that Nthombi and a black woman by the name of Tryfinia Njokweni had left the RSA for Mozambique.

MR LAX: Had you, or anybody in your branch, given out false information in this regard?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, we did not, Chairperson, it was information which was gleaned during a course by members of the Security Branch.  Whether it was a disinformation campaign by the family or the other people within MK or ANC itself, I would not know.

CHAIRPERSON: That wasn't disinformation from your side?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, it was definitely not disinformation from our side.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at all, or any of your members at all, make any follow-up to the place where the body had been left, any return visit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I did not do anything and I don't know whether du Preez and Wasserman did, but there was no instruction from me to them to go back to the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: There, in fact would be no need to.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would not have done so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, any questions arising from questions ...yes, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Sorry there's just one thing that I picked up as I realised that I'd left it out of my notes and that is this, you've told us that she was blindfolded during the time that she was being assaulted and questioned, if that was the case, how could she have tried to ward off the blows, if she was blindfolded she wouldn't know where they were coming from, she wouldn't have been able to see them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, all one does is you put your hands up in the air, that's what she did.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any questions arising out of question that have been put by members of the panel?