Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-04

ADV GCABASHE: You then went to Polla Park and you talked about Themba fetching some other chap from one house, this other person called the rest of the community.  Who was in command at the time, who was giving the orders at that time?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No one was responsible for commanding the group.  Anyone would just say something or pose a question.

ADV GCABASHE: That final order that Qobani should be killed at Polla Park, who gave that final order or was it just a general agreement by everybody, just help me with that?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: It was the agreement from the group that this IFP person should be killed.

ADV GCABASHE: Then one last aspect, I wasn't too sure about your participation in the assault.  I am not sure if you participated in the assault or whether you simply observed others participating in the assault of Qobani at Polla Park, or whether you were not there at the time of the assault at Polla Park.  Just help me with that.

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I was present, but I did not take part because it was chaos.  They were pulling him towards the playground.

ADV GCABASHE: Finally, when you shot at Qobani the second incident at Xaba Street, you shot at him, you were inside the house with an AK47 and he was still struggling with Themba at the time?  Did I get that right?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, I was inside the house, we were inside the house.

ADV GCABASHE: How did you know you would not hit Themba instead?  I am just trying to picture this.

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He was at the place where it was brighter.  The light was brighter.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Just to follow up on Adv Gcabashe's question.  Themba was not hit during that shooting?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, he was not hit because I fired only once.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are things peaceful there in Tokoza now?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: After what happened, there was no peace.  We couldn't look one another in the eye.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about now, today?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Qobani does not reside there in my street.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen to me carefully, it is not only you and Qobani who caused the problems there in Tokoza, I am asking if it is peaceful there today or is there still trouble?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, there are no problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Are people living with each other in peace now?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is in the process because the people had gone back to their houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the fact that there are people who belong to different political parties, tolerated now in the area?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And from what you say now, it seems like people can live together, whether they are members of IFP or the ANC or any other party?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, because we are able to move freely at Penduka Section and the IFP members from Penduka, they are free to go to our area, to Mlungeni and the other places.

CHAIRPERSON: And people are talking to each other now?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I am pleased to hear that.  Do you say Qobani doesn't live in the area any more?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He never used to stay there, he used to visit.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you never tried to go to house 2192 Xaba Street, to go find out where you could find Qobani for the purposes of making peace with him and to tell him personally how sorry you were like you said today?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: That has been in my mind, but I was also scared.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: About what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you tell me that people are now appearing to be living with each other peacefully, talking to each other and tolerant of each other's political choices.  What would make you scared to make to him to say, and tell him personally how sorry you were about it, and to encourage people not to repeat these things?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I couldn't go there because I only knew that Qobani was dead, that is why I was scared to go there.  I only knew that Qobani was dead.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you find out that he was alive and that you wouldn't be speaking to a ghost?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I got that information when this issue of the Truth Commission was raised.

CHAIRPERSON: If it could be facilitated that you meet him to talk to him, maybe between your Attorney and the Evidence Leader, would you be prepared to talk to him, despite what he has just said?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: These battles that raged in the area, it may not have been the worst in the country, or perhaps it was, one never knows, do you regret that that has happened?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And that really our own people were killing each other, not so because of somebody or some other agenda?  Do you agree?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Will you please repeat the question sir?

CHAIRPERSON: That this senseless battle where our own people were being killed, seems to me to have been the result of other people or other institutions or other parties' agendas and should not have happened at all, would you agree?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you yourself learnt about those mistakes now?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, what is the full name of the victim?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, it is actually I will spell it, it is Jephanos and the correct surname is Dube.  There is also the nephew, Mr Mandla Elios Soko.  He is also here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he become a victim?

ADV STEENKAMP: Just sir by the fact that he was next of kin or family member, related family member.  He is not directly, can be seen directly as a family member, but he was next of kin, and at one stage I think, he stayed in the house that was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get Mr Dube's address.

ADV STEENKAMP: Please Mr Chairman, if you will just allow me a minute.  Mr Chairman, I can maybe just say in the meantime if I may be allowed ...

CHAIRPERSON: You can give us his address in chambers.  What is the second ...

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I may, the feeling of Mr Dube is that if it can be facilitated, he feels he is in a position to speak to the applicant about what happened and he is prepared to make his peace.

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please speak a bit slowly because the Interpreters are struggling to hear him.

ADV STEENKAMP: I am just saying sir, the applicant has indicated to me now that he is willing and able to speak to the applicant, if that can be facilitated.
	Mr Chairman, the second victim is Mr Mandla Elios Soko.  The correct address Mr Chairman, of the victim is 2192 Xaba Street, I am sure I am pronouncing it incorrectly, but it is spelt Xaba Street, Tokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose house was it that was damaged?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, as far as I can establish, it belonged to the whole family, but the victim at one stage, stayed there.  During the attack he stayed there as well.  In the second incident, he stayed in this house.  He used to stay in this house.

CHAIRPERSON: The victim in the sense of the damage, related to the damage caused to the house, would really be the owner who was almost obliged to fix it up and we need to consider whether we should refer that to the Reparations Committee and therefore we need to know who the owner was and of course it would be the same address.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that is exactly one of the problems that we are trying to establish because apparently this house was rented from somebody and we will find that information.  We will do so Mr Chairman.