Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

MR WAGENER: Were they involved in prior reconnaissance before planting the landmines?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Chilies was involved.

MR WAGENER: How do you know that?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja, because he left us and he went for reconnaissance.

MR WAGENER: When?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: It should be around August/September somewhere there of 1985.

MR WAGENER: And were you in possession of a map when you - of a map specifying the locations of where bombs, mines had to be planted?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: What happened to this map?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: The map?

MR WAGENER: Ja.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: It has to be returned back to ...(intervention)

MR WAGENER: Did you see the map?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja, when everything was planned, it was planned, when we were briefed, we were briefed on the basis of that map that no, we'll operate in this area.

MR WAGENER: And the other group of six, did they also have a map?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Do you know that or are you speculating?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No we are a same group, when we were briefed we were briefed together.

MR WAGENER: Ja.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you went on the actual mission, when you crossed over into the country and split into two groups, did you still have a map?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No.

MR WAGENER: So were you supposed to enter the country and find the exact roads by night without a map and to know then where to plant the mines?  Is that your evidence?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No we are saying that Chilies as the person who was on the reconnaissance, he's the one who went fro reconnaissance, he knows the area, we relied on his knowledge of the area.

MR WAGENER: And was it the same with the other group of six with their leader, apparently Agrippa?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Agrippa.

MR WAGENER: Was it the same there?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I think it was the same.

MR WAGENER: Who gave the overall instruction for your operation?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: It was Mancheck, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Wasn't it the National Executive Committee of the ANC?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I mean this thing, as you earlier mentioned that what role Mancheck was in that Zimbabwe Front, he's the one who gives us the instructions.

MR WAGENER: But didn't this instruction come from ...(intervention)

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Automatically ...(intervention)

MR WAGENER: Sorry.  Sorry, you were saying?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: That simply means Mancheck gets his orders from the higher echelon.

MR WAGENER: What is the higher echelon in your book?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: That will be the National Executive Committee.

MR WAGENER: So the National Executive Committee gave the instructions for this landmine campaign?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Pardon, Sir?

MR WAGENER: So the National Executive Committee gave the instructions for the landmine campaign, is that your evidence?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja because us, we were given orders as the footsoldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether the National Executive Committee gave orders to Mancheck, or are you assuming it?  Do you have personal knowledge where Mancheck got his orders from?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I'm assuming that he got it from the National Executive Committee.

MR WAGENER: But on page 33 of the bundle, you state as a fact, if you want to have a look it's there with your lawyer, you state as a fact, that's the way I read your application at least, that the order or approval came from the National Executive Committee.  Do you see that there?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir, I see it.

MR WAGENER: Is that your firm belief that that's how it happened?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja, because any order to a footsoldier, it must come from the National Executive Committee of the ANC, yes.

MR WAGENER: Before you embarked on this operation, were you at any stage told that your operation had the blessing of the National Executive Committee?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Before?

MR WAGENER: Ja, before you embarked, before you came to South Africa on this operation, were you told:  "You needn't worry, the National Executive Committee had authorised or approved your mission", or is this merely an assumption?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I mean as a footsoldier Sir, I only receive orders, I don't question orders, because I take it for granted that the orders come from the higher ...(indistinct), yes Sir.

MR WAGENER: Had you at any stage after this operation met the Chief of your army, Mr Joe Modise?  Have you met him personally?  After this operation?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: After this operation?

MR WAGENER: Yes.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Never?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No.

MR WAGENER: Did any other senior member of your Command Structure, apart from this Mancheck, discuss this operation with you afterwards?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No Sir.

MR WAGENER: Till today?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No.

MR WAGENER: Is that the position?  Chairman, I've got no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wagener.  Mr de Beer, any questions you'd like to put to Mr Mbuli?

MR DE BEER: No questions from me, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam thanks, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions you'd like to put?

ADV BOSMAN: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbuli thank you, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR KOOPEDI: And in fact Chairperson, that will conclude all the evidence to be tendered in respect of Mr Mbuli's application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I think if we can try to finish the evidence of the applicants today, it would ...

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the next applicant is Mr Mthetheleli Zephania Mncube, he is ready to be sworn in.