Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

MR STEENKAMP: Did you ever try to find out who these people were?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Chairman, I tried to find out from Fouche who these people actually were, he himself didn't know.  He didn't know their actual names.

MR STEENKAMP: Maybe I'm wrong and you must help me, but at least at two places in your evidence in chief you've said that the death of the deceased was in order  - or the goal of these people were to undermine the Government.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that's how I saw it.

MR STEENKAMP: I do not really understand that, can you give us a bit more detail.  Why do you say that?  To what extent did they want to undermine the Government?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: It's because of the fact that they were gathering weapons, getting weapons together.  At that stage we all knew what was going on in the townships, we all knew that.  Political violence was committed in the townships and as I've already explained to you with regards to the investigation I held with the 3 million cases as well as the one in Parys, the modus operandi was similar.  I believed that these people were busy with exactly the same kind of affairs in order the further their political goals.

STEENKAMP: And what were their political goals?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: According to the information they were ANC trained terrorists.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely, Mr de Ru, if you only had their code names or their operational names, this made it essential to get in touch with the Security Police who specialised in the investigation of political matters as to whether they could assist you, by given you more details about these people whom you wanted to investigate, you wanted to arrest.  Why not do the normal procedure and ask the Security Branch for assistance?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: It's like you say but I still believed that the Security Branch would not have gotten anywhere with only the call names, the first names.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.
	Mr de Ru, as far as that question's concerned, wasn't it the main function of the Security Branch to gather information concerning terrorists or about terrorists for the purposes of preventing anarchy and detrimental activities towards the state?  You know who these people were but you do not report back?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I don't think it's a question of that I haven't reported it, I already told Botha and Coetzee about it and if I remember correctly, the name of Tyson was known to Botha but like I've said, there was no further information forthcoming with regards to their identity and it was not available to us at all.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I just put it to you this way, maybe to make it a bit easier for you.  Did you have any information or any factual information which was of substance which would indicate that any of these deceased before, prior, was involved in any political acts or violence.  Did you have any information before this incident that they were involved in these types of actions, that they were involved in political actions?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Political violence?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell us a bit more?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I don't know if I'm going to answer you correctly now but at that time there wasn't something like political crimes and murder was a murder.  I'ts now that murder became political.  Arson was arson.

MR STEENKAMP: No, I think you misunderstand me.  Let's look at political violence.  You said the purpose of these people was to incite political violence, if I understand you correctly?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes you do.

MR STEENKAMP: No, I'm asking you, did you have any information before this incident that these people were involved in political violence?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The fact that I was told that policemen were killed by them.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you consider that political violence?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell anybody you had reports and you had somebody who could identify the people who had killed those policemen, that they were trained MK soldiers and you had a witness who could identify them?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes, my direct commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Colonel Swanepoel.

CHAIRPERSON: So you told Colonel Swanepoel that you had information about these trained MK cadres who had murdered the policemen?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Around about the end of March or the beginning of April.  It's after I received the information about them.  I also reported this to Murder and Robbery in Vanderbijlpark.  After Fouche came and told me that on that Friday night they shot policemen and then they gave me feedback and told me that two policemen were in fact shot.  Like I've told you, the one was seriously injured and the one was lightly injured.

CHAIRPERSON: And did none of them ask you to identify these people, to point them out?  Murder and Robbery and Colonel Swanepoel, you told them you had information relating, which would identify the people who you thought had murdered policemen, in fact hadn't they merely tried or attempted to murder them, did none of them come back and say where are they, let's go and get them?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No Chairperson because they knew we were busy in arresting these people and we would have arrested them and I believed they waited for this to happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Ru, you told us this was at the end of March?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go and arrest them for the charge of attempted murder of police officers?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The attempted murder on the policemen happened on the 3rd March.  I only received information after it happened and it was confirmed on the 6th and on the 7th we tried to arrest them.  I'm talking about April, did I say March?  I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said the end of March you were told when I asked you, you said that you told Colonel Swanepoel you had information about the trained MK cadres who had murdered the policemen, this was the end of March.  I thought that's what you said a few minutes ago.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Let me just correct that.  I told Swanepoel what the information was, the fact that they shot someone and that's when Swanepoel said it, but the confirmed case, that of the two policemen, was only confirmed to me on the 6th.  They were shot on the 3rd April and it was confirmed to me on the 6th and on the 7th we acted against them.

CHAIRPERSON: What I can't understand is, you now had confirmed that they had shot at two policemen, a most serious offence.  Why don't you go and arrest them?  You had information as to where they would be found, you could have gone when Fouche went to pick them up and arrested them?  Why set up this massive thing with dozens of policemen in a public marketing centre when you could have the night before, when you ...[indistinct] the information, you could have gone and arrested them?  Why didn't you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I believed that the best way was the way I did it.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you serious in that, that you thought the best way was to wait somewhere the next morning in the expectation that they might drive up there and that your policemen who would have been with them might get a chance to get away and that they would then after you threw stun grenades come out with their hands up?  Is that what you believed was the best way, Mr de Ru?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: At that stage I did believe that Chairperson.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	If you please turn to page 115?  Do you have it?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I do.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just tell us - what is this document?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Your honour, this is a document which was drawn up by Warrant Officer Harley.