Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1977-08-07

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions you wish to put Mr Brink, to the witness, to the Applicant?

MR BRINK: Yes, please Mr Chairman.  I just want to deal firstly with the incident at Rosemary's house.  As I understand it you were convicted of assaulting her and robbing her of this radio, is that the position?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I never took any radio even Rosemary can tell you that I did not, even Mr Mkhize can explain that I did not take the radio.

MR BRINK: Yes, I understand that, I understand what you're telling me but were you convicted of stealing the radio?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: No, I wasn't.

MR BRINK: In respect of what assault and robbery were you convicted?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I wouldn't know why they said I assaulted somebody, maybe Rosemary was upset or angry because I kicked the door then she made those allegations but I never did.  I was chasing the person I was chasing and I was not attacking her.

MR BRINK: I do want to stop you but I just want to get one thing clear in my mind and the answer is quite simple so please, keep it short Mr Hlengwa.  Whether or not you committed those offences, were you convicted of having assaulted her and having taken her radio, were you convicted of those offences?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, I think ...(intervention)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: No, I wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't have the information to tell us precisely what the robbery involved.

MR BRINK: That's what I'm trying to get to.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't know what the evidence was and what other things were, if anything.

MR BRINK: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR BRINK: Listen to me very carefully please Mr Hlengwa, when you appeared in the Regional Court at Uhmlazi, you were convicted of the murder of Mr Makanja, you were convicted culpable homicide relating to the death of Mr Zwane, is that correct?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: That is true.

MR BRINK: And you were also convicted of having committed an assault upon someone and also having committed robbery in respect of which you got two years imprisonment.  Now what I want to know and the Committee wants to know, who was the victim in the assault case and who did you rob?  Can't you remember?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: No, I don't.

MR BRINK: I didn't hear the translation.

INTERPRETER: He said he doesn't remember.

MR BRINK: You don't remember?  You see you're asking for amnesty in respect of an assault and a robbery, now you have to tell us about that.

CHAIRPERSON: For which he was convicted and sentenced.

MR BRINK: Yes.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I don't remember that case even in court, I remember only one Makosi Xhosa who was referred to in court because at that time I was confused.

MR BRINK: Do you say that you never committed an assault on any person?

CHAIRPERSON: No, he says he doesn't remember.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Brink?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Maybe it is Makosi, I think it is Makosi, I think it's Makosi Xhosa because I never assaulted Rosemary, I remember.

ADV DE JAGER: Wouldn't there be a possibility of us getting the judgement in this ...

MR BRINK: It was asked for, I don't know why it was not ...(inaudible)

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) about the indictment, he's trying to tell us what each count would be and I don't think we could really rely on that because he hasn't got the technical knowledge to say what the counts were and I think before, if possible we should get a copy of the Judgement.  That can't raise any new questions, it should be common cause.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shembe, can't you throw any light on this?

MR SHEMBE: No, Mr Chairman except only documents that the Commissioners have, that's all what I have in my possession.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: May I speak?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: In court when I was convicted I was convicted with regard to Masulele, Bheki and Simiso as well as pointing a firm arm.  I don't remember any other case that was dealt with on that day.  I remember Masulele Makanja's case, Simiso's case as well as the possession of  an unlicensed firearm.  I don't remember anything with regard to the assault.  Maybe if you could get the cassette with regard to the court proceedings.

MR BRINK: All right well, I'll pass on from that point anyway.

ADV DE JAGER: You see, in the record  we've got, you actually pleaded guilty to the Count 2, if that was the shooting of Bheki and on Counts 3 and 4 and that was the assault and the robbery so there was evidence led about it I suppose, about the robbery on ...but did Mrs Letuli for instance give evidence at the court?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: No, there wasn't any evidence led with regard to that.  I don't any Mrs Letuli who appeared as a witness but I remember one lady who appeared as a witness when Masulele died, I don't remember any other witness besides the others that I've mentioned.  That's all I remember when I try to recall.

MR BRINK: All right.  Now in your application, I'm referring to page 3 of the papers you made mention of Mr Breeze Derick Mtembo having been, oh was not injured, Mr Mtembo was there but you say he was not injured.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR BRINK: Oh I see, all right.  Now as far as Mr Makanja is concerned, had you known him for some time as member or support of UDF?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, I did.

MR BRINK: Had you been on friendly terms with him in the past?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, I could say we were neighbours and we were friends though not close friends but we were used to each other and we grew up together.  We were not particularly close, we attended the same school at some stage.  I knew him quite well and I also knew his father.

MR BRINK: When you heard the voices which you identified as those being UDF people at the time your house was attacked, did you recognise the voice of Mr Makanja?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR BRINK: I'd rather keep it specific to ...(intervention)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I do not want to say I heard Makanja's voice specifically, there were a lot of people talking but whatever they were saying I could identify them as members of the UDF.

MR BRINK: Were you able to identify them as specific people after having heard their voices?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: No I was not able to, it was at night and I couldn't see anyone and there were gunshots.

MR BRINK: Yes, I understand that, I understand that.

MR BRINK: So, you say you heard voices but you identified them as voices of supporters belonging to the UDF?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRINK: And is that because of what they were saying or shouting or whatever at the time?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: What I heard was that they were shouting the slogan, kill.  They were saying kill Gova, I don't know what Gova is in English and burnt down the house.

MR BRINK: Was your killing of Mr Makanja a vengeance killing?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: When Mr Makanja was killed, yes I could say that I was killing a UDF member because they had also attacked me but I didn't want to particularly kill Mr Makanja, I just wanted a UDF member, any UDF member that I could lay my hands on I wanted to attack.  For instance at some stage I wanted Tabani Mbata as well as Mgulu Leko.  Quite a number of them I told myself I would attack whenever I came across them as long as they were UDF members.  I wasn't singling Mr Makanja out.

MR BRINK: I just want to get to the question of your detention under the Emergency Regulations, is it the position that supporters in the main of the UDF would have attained?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Could the speaker repeat the question?

MR BRINK: In regard to your detention, when you were detained you were a supporter of the IFP.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: That is true.

MR BRINK: Is it not correct that most detainees were supporters of the UDF?