Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Because in the first instance, Mr De Kock gave me the order to shoot and secondly we went to shoot everybody dead.

MR MOERANE: I see, so that obviously relates to your state of mind, your intention was to kill those people?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Whether or not at that stage they posed a threat to you, you just had to eliminate them?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That was the order and that was the intention.

MR MOERANE: And by saying order, you are now talking about all four of them?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: The instruction came from?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Mr De Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Moerane, who did you regard to be in charge of that operation?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Mr De Kock.

MR MOERANE: You made a statement in the inquest proceedings and you also gave evidence in the first inquest proceedings Piet Retief?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: In terms of your evidence and your affidavit, the information that you had received was to the effect that two trained members of the ANC were expected, is that so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, if I recall correctly, there was information that it would be two persons entering the country, but that may be incorrect.

MR MOERANE: Well, I refer you to a statement that you made, it is in Bundle 3(a), page 5.  Do you see the second paragraph there
"... on the 8th of June 1988 I received certain instructions during the afternoon from Major De Kock and Warrant Officer Pienaar that two trained ANC terrorists would infiltrate during the night."
	That was the information that you were given?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, as far as I can recall, that is correct, that it would be two persons infiltrating that night.

MR MOERANE: No, no, I agree with you.  The only point that I was trying to make is that that is the information that was available to you, to Warrant Officer Pienaar and to the people that were going to take part in this operation?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: With the exception that it was also said to us that these persons would be armed.

MR MOERANE: Well, I don't know whether you mention it in your statement, your first statement, I don't see it.  In any event, it is common cause and we all know now that they were not armed.   I would like to refer you to Bundle 2, page 125.  This is a press report dated the 12th of September 1993, the reporters there seem to be one Warrant Gibson, Sharon Chetty and they refer to an interview given by a former South African Police Sergeant, Marthinus Grobler.  Do you remember those two, Grobler and Stevens?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, yesterday I also made enquiries about it, I don't even know what the persons look like.

MR MOERANE: No, no, do you remember that issue arose at the Piet Retief inquest about these people who had given an interview to the Vrye Weekblad and later on, they went to Lusaka, one of them Stevens came back and made statements, do you remember that?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes, I remember it, I know about it.

MR MOERANE: At the time of the incident, they were stationed at Piet Retief?  Do you recall that, both of them Grobler and Stevens?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes, according to what I read.

MR MOERANE: Yes.   You see, in the third column, last paragraph, the following is reported
"... it was murder, plain and simple, no firearms, ammunition or explosives were found in the car.  They were all shot at point blank range with service pistols and clothes were burnt to destroy vital forensic evidence."
	Do you have any comment to make about that paragraph?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, I want to put one point clearly, I do not deny that it was murder,  but I would like to make my share as such known here, the same as what I made known during the post mortem.   When the vehicle stopped, I ran around the back of the vehicle on the right, when I arrived at the right back side of the vehicle, shots began going off.  At that stage, I believed that we were being shot at.  The right back door, went open, I also shot at the door where it was also seen that the woman who sat in the back on the right, had been wounded on her hand.  It was only after the shooting, that I realised that no shots were fired at us from within the vehicle and that there were no firearms in the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Moerane is wanting from this passage that he read, Mr Ras, at the bottom of the third column, what is being inferred there from that quotation is that the shooting of the deceased persons were done as such close range, that their clothes had to be burnt to destroy forensic evidence, in other words powder marks on their clothing, etc.  What is your comment on that?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, none of the persons according to my opinion were shot in such a fashion that the weapon was held right against them, with the exception of the woman that I shot.  The rest of them were shot from outside the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: From your knowledge, Mr Ras, how far must a weapon be from a target, in order to leave a powder burn or a powder mark or powder trace?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, I will have to answer a question about something which I don't really have expert knowledge about.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is why I am asking you out of your knowledge, if you haven't got any knowledge, then say so, but if you do, you an answer.

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: As a result of the vehicle, some of the powder would have been held back, but due to the compact nature of the vehicle, there would have been residue within the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.    Let's look at the fourth column, according to Mr Grobler, the Security Policemen involved in the first round of killings returned to the police station around midnight with four bodies in the back of the police van, you don't dispute that?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: No Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  They were riddled with bullet holes, you don't dispute that?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: No Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: One of the women was wearing a light blue blouse and it was obvious from the powder burns on her clothes, that she had been shot at point blank range.  Could that have been the person that you shot at close range?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, I cannot recall which person wore what clothing, I cannot recall clothing which had marks on, they were full of blood and the shot that I fired at the woman, was directly at her temple.

MR MOERANE: Was it not in front, in the region of the eye?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, if I recall correctly it was approximately three to four centimetres behind the eye in the head.

MR MOERANE: And the eye of that person popped out, not so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: No Chairperson, not as far as I can recall.

MR MOERANE: Do you know anything about the following passage
"... his job, Mr Grobler said, had been to ensure that no regular policeman entered the designated killing zone while the ambush was in progress."
	Do you know that some people, some policemen were detailed to keep out regular policemen while the ambush was in progress?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, all that I can recall is Mr Flores and another person who was with him in the vehicle, who were not on the scene, I cannot recall any other persons who were on the road at that stage.

MR MOERANE: Mr Flores drove in the direction of the border post to find out what the cause of the delay was, not so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And he met this Toyota Corolla as it was coming towards the ambush zone and he proceeded on and made a U-turn further on?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And returned whilst the shooting was on the go?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.