Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you have a look at page 136 of your affidavit, paragraph 5, the middle of the paragraph.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Excuse me is that page 10?

GEORGE BIZOS: Page 136.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Of my application Mr Chairman, is it page 10?

ADV DE JAGER: It is your affidavit dated 17 September 1997.

GEORGE BIZOS: That is so Mr Chairman.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I have it in front of me Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you have a look in the middle of paragraph 5, (own translation - he also admitted to another detainee, one Patric Titi, was directly involved with the compiling of an undermining pamphlet that was on the night of the 17/18-08-1977 in Port Elizabeth distributed.
	Now, you put up your right hand and you swore that that was the truth when you made this affidavit.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: This was false?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Therefore it must have been discussed on the Saturday morning gathering to commit perjury, not so, otherwise it wouldn't have, a false statement like this wouldn't have found itself  in your affidavit?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct, but as I sit here I do not have any independent recollection of that, but it is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, on your own version, you wouldn't have made up this lie on your own, you must have heard it at the conspiratorial meeting to commit perjury and this is how it comes to be in your affidavit?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you see, I am going to put to you that there was more than one reason for having that meeting and in order to change the date.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry I cannot hear, there is something wrong with this earphones.  Sorry Mr Bizos.  Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, you had to, you thought that you had to change the date to the 7th, because you wanted - you and your colleagues, and it must have been discussed at this meeting - you needed a whole day and a whole night in order to make up a credible story that Mr Biko had condemned himself into admissions that he was planning violence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, so it wasn't a simple thing of just avoiding the criticism of the Doctor.   You and your colleagues decided to make the injuries on the morning of the 7th, so that you and your colleagues could describe at great length in their attempts to defeat the ends of justice, that during the period, a full day of interrogation on the 6th, and a full night's interrogation during the night of the 6th and 7th, Mr Biko was confronted with affidavits and with documents and with real evidence and he went bezerk the next day because he had admitted his complicity in violence.  Isn't that what was worked out at that meeting?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see there you are, even though none of us were there, we can work things out.
	An attempt was made at the inquest to persuade the court that Mr Biko had admitted that he had committed violence, and then he decided to go bezerk the next morning, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.  As I have said previously, it is all false which is stated there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but then your counsel, Mr Van Rooyen, produced a batch of affidavits that was supposed to have been shown to Mr Biko, that made him collapse to the power of the Security Police, that here they had him, because they had affidavits from other people to show that he had taken part in violence, do you remember that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Unfortunately neither your counsel, nor your colleagues checked the dates of the affidavits.  They were executed after Mr Biko's death, do you recall that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.  I think it was put to Mr Snyman.  That was the typed version, not the written version.  The written version was already on the 12th or the 26th or the 25th, this was made of Exhibit C, it was already made on the 26th of August.
	Exhibit A and B was already drawn up on the 25th.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you know that is an explanation that was attempted to be given at the inquest, but we now know that that explanation is nonsense, because you told us that in truth and in fact, Mr Biko never admitted anything and he was not confronted with any affidavits, because he was seriously injured on the morning of the 6th?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: So even the purported explanation to explain the dates of the affidavits, was part of the perjered version?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  So that we now have it from you sir, that it was not contrary to your and your colleagues' nature to fabricate evidence against the living and the dead, in order to convict Mr Biko after his death, of being guilty of planning violence?
	Have I put it correctly?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that you didn't even have any respect for the dead, you went and took affidavits and made affidavits and typed them after his death, and said that he was confronted with them, and he admitted the correctness of the content, well knowing that you and your colleagues were lying?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That was the typed version, but the written version was already in our possession.  I just want to draw that distinction.

GEORGE BIZOS: But that doesn't matter, you never showed it to him on your own evidence.  You never showed him, you never had the chance to show him anything, there was a quarrel about a chair and he got a fatal injury.
	He was shown nothing of any import and he certainly didn't admit anything?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He was shown the pamphlet.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, let's deal with the affidavits.  He was not shown any affidavits, so that whether they were written or whether they were typed, doesn't really matter tuppence.
	What I am putting to you is that you and your colleagues were prepared to sign affidavits and tell the Magistrate deliberate lies in order to defame Mr Biko's integrity and reputation after his death?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I have said in my evidence, yes, we did fabricate false statements.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you know, I want to go back to where we started, where your counsel asked you to read this quotation from McEwan because I want to have some details from you about it.  Do you say winning a revolutionary war will take massive organisation, dedication, sacrifice and time - the government must decide early if it is willing to pay the price, half measures lead only to protracted costly defeats.  	Having read that to you, I want to ask you this.  Do you say that this gave you authority to assault people with hosepipes?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you say that this gave you authorities to hang up, crucifixion style people against grill doors?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did it give you the authority to commit perjury?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did it give you authority to falsely accuse people in public life like Mr Biko, of being guilty of terrorism when you knew that your statement was false?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Then sir, who in the name of patriotism gave you the idea that Langenhoven might have written "we would assault, we would lie and we would defame for you, South Africa."  Where did you get that idea from?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: This was the silent approval of the politicians, and to take no action against this treatment of detainees.