Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: And Coetzee said that it was at the same stage you stole an Audi vehicle together with him, and Coetzee conceded that he was later murdered at Komatipoort, implicated other people like Fleming for example and he implicates a certain Deetlefs and Rorich, van Dyk but on the other hand he does not implicate Roy Otto.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: These people he's referring to, I don't know them.  I've already said in my evidence who were there.  We were definitely not at the same party.

MR JANSEN: Please repeat.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: We weren't all at the same place.

MR JANSEN: Did I hear your evidence correctly that Danster first came on the scene when Kondile was transferred to the single quarters?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct yes.  It could have been that Danster moved with me, perhaps visited the man in the cells but he was not involved in his interrogation.

MR JANSEN: It could have possible been that Kondile was was first detained in the cells in Jeffrey's Bay before he was transferred to the single quarters.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct yes.

MR JANSEN: So did Danster's role entail anything else apart from guarding?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No he only guard Kondile.

MR JANSEN: Would he ever have taken him out for investigation?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR JANSEN: Look on page 185.

CHAIRPERSON: What volume are we talking about.

MR JANSEN: Volume 2 Mr Chairman, page 185.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR JANSEN: Page 185, it's a cell register dated the 25.7.81.  The first entry right at the top and correct me if my quote is wrong, serial number 1444 and the 10H.50 and then it reads as follows
"Investigations on -:, 'B M' which probably stands for 'Black Man' Bueinisizwe Kondile out of cells for investigation, escort by Sgt Danster" .
Would you agree with what I'm reading there?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It is correct yes.

MR JANSEN: This was on the 25th of July.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

MR JANSEN: As I remember your evidence if I remember that correctly, Kondile was transferred from Humansdorp to Jeffrey's Bay on the 24th of July.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct yes.

MR JANSEN: How do you explain then Danster's involvement in this investigation, one day after his arrival at Jeffrey's Bay?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It could possibly be that I sent him to the cells to take him out.

MR JANSEN: Yes anything can be possible.  Sorry Mr Chairman I'm not correct, there's just one more question that I do, it's not...(indistinct).  To detain Kondile in a the single quarters, is it correct that the cooperation of the station commander was required for that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I think yes it was cleared by Captain du Plessis and that was lieutenant Warrant Officer Jonker, I can't remember him.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman I have no further questions.
Sorry Mr Chairman if you could just bear with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly.

MR JANSEN: Yes sorry Mr Chairman there's just a last aspect that I want to refer this witness to.  Mr Raath can you please page to page 163 in volume 2.  It's an affidavit of a certain Edwin Mayepe. Have you seen this affidavit before?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It's the first time that I've seen this.

MR JANSEN: I'll just summarise it quickly.  It's an affidavit which is made in 1990 for purposes of the Harms Commission by this Mayepe who said that in '81 a second hand Audi 80 was stolen from him in Port Elizabeth.  It also confirms that he was involved at that stage with a legal officer of a trade union.  My question to you is can you think of any reason why Mr Coetzee would become involved in the theft of a vehicle or make up his own participation in this theft at the stage when he testified before the Harms Commission?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I have no knowledge of that because I said that I did not even see Coetzee if he was in Port Elizabeth.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you known or seen Coetzee by that time in 1981?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I saw him for the first time at Komatipoort.

CHAIRPERSON: So even if he was there, you may not have known who he was at Jeffrey's Bay, you wouldn't know who it was.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

UNKNOWN: I have no re-examination thank you Mr Chairman
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

ADV DE JAGER: I just want to point out to you this affidavit on page 163 says that the person bought the car in June of '81 and six or seven months later it was stolen.  That means approximately December or January '82. Can it then be that you know of a car that was stolen long after this incident?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I don't know.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Raath, please tell me, the body of Mr Kondile was burned.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.  He was shot while he was lying next to a tree, that's what I understood from the other witnesses, that's correct.

JUDGE PILLAY: Was he shot or was he burned out next to the tree or was he carried and put on a pyre?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was a little way from there, two or three steps, he was carried away.

JUDGE PILLAY: Who carried him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I know that I helped to carry him.

JUDGE PILLAY: Where on his body did you support him?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I cannot remember.

JUDGE PILLAY: In any case you had an opportunity to look at this body.  Can you please tell us where this person had been shot?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I can't remember any more.  I did not look at that body it was not an easy thing to do.

JUDGE PILLAY: You were there with the body and you are telling us that you cannot say where on his body the person was shot?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: If I had to say where he was shot then I would have to tell a lie.  It was not easy for me at all.

JUDGE PILLAY: And while he was lying on the wood pile, while he was being burned did you not look where he was shot either.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I walked away and stood to the side, I did not look, not at all.

JUDGE PILLAY: There of the five people did not know where this man was shot.  Because your other two colleagues also say they did not look.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I did not look, I am sure.

JUDGE PILLAY: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Raath the trip on the 10th of August, first to Bloemfontein and then later from Barberton to Komatipoort, the first leg, PE to Bleomfontein, you were in the same car as Mr Kondile, yes?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Up to Bloemfontein, that's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: What was the nature of your conversation with Kondile, was he curious about where you were going to?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It wasn't discussed in the vehicle in my presence.

ADV GCABASHE: Then from Barberton to Komatipoort, he didn't ask you why you had been driving his car?  Why you had left it at the side of the road?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No he did not talk to me about that, I do not know whether he had already been informed, I have no knowledge of this.  He did not discuss this with me.

ADV GCABASHE: If I might go back to Jeffrey's Bay.  As part of Mr du Plessis team, did you too have intimate knowledge about the principal agent and the network in Lesotho?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No it was dealt with by Capt du Plessis himself.

ADV GCABASHE: So you had no knowledge at all of those people?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Then the last question, I keep jumping up and down the country, back to Komatipoort and the decision to shoot Sizwe Kondile and burn him.  Were you part of the conversation about burning the body?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave the order that Kondile should be shot at the scene?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I do not know who gave that instruction or order.

CHAIRPERSON: Who could have given the order?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I don't know, there were three officers present and I don't know, accept it...(intervention)