Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR BOTHA: Certainly - of course.  We all know that members of the PAC, ANC, Swapo at the time, all of them had received military training.  Some in Russia, some in other African States and we knew that they were in possession of very advanced modern equipment.

UNKNOWN: On this occasion, that is, the knife killing of the Whites at the beach front, was it not strange to you that the youth involved had used only knives and not a single firearm had been used?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, an attack is an attack, whether you use a club, a knife or an AK47. The weapon that one uses isn't what matters, it's the intention you have when you launch the attack and your objective, and it was clear that their intention was to kill people. Now whether one did so with a bayonet, a knife or an AK47, the aim was the same. To me it does not matter what weapon a man uses. If a man attacks me I have to defend myself and it doesn't matter what the weapon is that he uses.

UNKNOWN: Now, you heard in the news that the people who launched that attack had, according to your statement, red PAC  T-shirts?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you know the colour used by the PAC for their T-shirts?

MR BOTHA: No, I didn't know.

UNKNOWN: And you didn't know that they actually wore green, Black and yellow?

MR BOTHA: I don't know. As far as I know I didn't know what colours they used. Every organisation has its colours.

UNKNOWN: You did not think it reasonably important for you to consult with the other cell leaders in order to confirm that indeed, or to verify that indeed the attack was an attack by a political organisation?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, I didn't know any other the other cell leaders or if I knew them I certainly was not aware that they were cell leaders and that was a result of our structure. I could, though - what is the word that I'm looking for - the staff, the chiefs of staff in the Orde Boerevolk, I could consult with them, but in the time constraints I could not do that.
	Perhaps I could mention that the following day, that is the 10th of October, I did report back to the chiefs of staff of the Orde Boerevolk and I informed them that I had launched that attack and they expressed their approval.

UNKNOWN: Now in your evidence given today, you stated that you could have consulted with other cell leaders, but you did not have time, you had to carry out the counter-attack immediately.

MR BOTHA: I don't think that's quite correct that I said that because I couldn't talk to other cell leaders because I didn't know who the other cell leaders were. As far as I knew, the only members of the Orde Boerevolk that I knew - Piet Rudolf was already under arrest, the two people that I had recruited and I, myself. Those were the only ones that I knew of.

UNKNOWN: Well I could be mistaken, but you have stated that you could have consulted, but you didn't have time.

CHAIRPERSON: Chiefs of staff.

UNKNOWN: Chief of staff.

MR BOTHA: That is correct. We had to hit back on the same day. You must understand that it was a weekday, it wasn't a public holiday, people were at work.  And the method I had of communicating with the chiefs of staff of the Orde Boerevolk was to ring at certain times using certain public telephones and code names. It wasn't a matter of picking up a phone and dialing. The people that I wanted to talk to - I had no idea who these people were, what their identities were, we just had code names.

UNKNOWN: Why was the attack particularly in Durban, why could you not have sent your message by attacking nearby in Richards Bay?

MR BOTHA: I have already said in my evidence, if I had attacked people in Richards Bay, then that attack would not have been linked to the attack which had taken place that morning in Durban. The PAC attacked in Durban. The counter-attack also had to happen in Durban so that one would be linked to the other.

UNKNOWN: And your attention was to attack Black people?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: What were the names of the members of your cell?

MR BOTHA: They were Mr Adriaan Smuts, Mr Eugene Marais, Mr David Tennant ... [intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: David?

MR BOTHA: Dawid Tennant.

JUDGE WILSON: Tennant?

MR BOTHA: Yes, Tennant.   And, I'm trying to think - there was a Mr Kleynhans. I think it was Mr Kleynhans, but I can't remember anymore. It was either Kleynhans or Kleinsmit, I can't remember any longer.

JUDGE WILSON: Let's look at Exhibit A, do you have it? Who were the witnesses there?

MR BOTHA: The other one was Mr Smuts.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that Smuts' signature?

MR BOTHA: Yes, that's what it looks like, yes, that is his signature.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. And the name of the man who had the FN?

MR BOTHA: That was Mr Smith. S-M-I-T-H.

JUDGE WILSON: Smith.  Did he have many rifles?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, not as far as I know. This was his official weapon which had been issued to him by the defence force. He did tell me that it was possible that he could get more. I said I would like to have those weapons, but as far as I know that was his official military-issue rifle and it was the only one in his possession.

JUDGE WILSON: And as a member of the AWB - you said that the members of the AWB and OB had to collect weapons.

MR BOTHA: That's quite right.

JUDGE WILSON: But Smith gave his away?

MR BOTHA: That is so. I don't know what was in his mind, whether he felt that he could report it as stolen, but he gave it to me, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Botha, just relating to a question which you were asked a moment ago about revenge and your intentions. On page 32 of the court record, under addendum C, it was put to you,
"But Mr Botha even in war I don't think people are simply going to say, let's go into a town and shoot all of the children just to kill. It must have purpose.

MR BOTHA: Your Honour, I don't agree. In Israel under the Palestinians revenge is taken if there is an attack. The Israelis will launch a counter-attack and they will level a whole town, and they don't look to see whether there are men, women or children involved."
Now if you refer to revenge, in what sense were you referring to revenge?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, when one uses a word, one tries to convey to the other person what was going on in your mind at that particular time. I would say that what I was trying to illustrate at the time was that when an attack came against oneself or against one's people and one hit back, this was an action that is initiated to try to bring the person who had launched the original attack to new understanding so that he knew not to launch such an attack in future.
He would have to be convinced that if he should launch such an attack, there would be a very severe counter-attack. I can't think of the Afrikaans word, retaliation is the word - it's hitting back.

ADV DE JAGER: For the sake of clarity, this Mr Piet Rudolf that you have been referring to, was he involved in the arms theft from the Air force, the defence force?

MR BOTHA: Yes, that is so.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you just say what arms were stolen? Did he escape? Was he caught? What happened?

MR BOTHA: At the time of this attack, he'd already been arrested, detained in terms of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act. The arms that he stole, as far I know, I can't remember the numbers but there were R4 rifles, shotguns, 9mm pistols, an SMG and ammunition.

UNKNOWN: Mr Botha when you were recruited to be a cell leader, were you provided with any weaponry by the OB?

MR BOTHA: No, no Mr Chairman, they did not provide me with any weapons, any arms.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink,  I'm given to understand ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The microphone isn't on.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm given to understand that a representative of one or other of the victims or relatives of victims is present and would like, on behalf of his client, to ask questions and to lead evidence. Are you aware of that?