Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV DE JAGER: So, they would have known where the explosion 
was to take place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you give them an indication that it would 
take place 100 paces from point A or what was the position?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And did they take up position further on or 
where?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, where the exchange of vehicles took place. 
 It was about 100 metres from that point, that was where the 
explosion was to take place.

ADV DE JAGER: If you had pressed the button a couple of 
seconds too late, it would have been passed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So they had to know exactly when you were to 
press the button to place themselves in the correct position from 
where they could still shoot?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You say that they chose that positions for 
themselves.  They must have been able to chose it from information 
which you had given them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is why I took them to the scene, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, the one thing that I don't understand is 
how can you take people to a place they hadn't seen before, you take 
them so that they would know where they would put that evening 
and they should also determine the positions where they would have 
to be placed without you, the person who is taking them there to the 
place that they don't know, discussing with them the purpose of 
them being there.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I have already said, I took into account the 
fact that their Commanding Officer had told them what role to play 
and they were trained people and I took them to the scene and they 
made their own observations there and they knew in which direction 
the vehicle was to travel.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you arrived at that place, what do you 
say to them?  As far as they were concerned, that place could have 
been anywhere.  You have gone passed a number of places and you 
come to a particular point and what do you say to them, you just 
keep quiet?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I said that that was where the exchange of 
vehicles was to take place.  That is where they would switch the 
vehicles, in other words where the Jetta and the kombi were to be 
switched and the four deceased would then take up their positions in 
the Jetta.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, that is what you told them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So that it should make sense?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: And in the direction in which the Jetta was to 
travel.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.  And they were then able to observe the 
area and where they could take up their positions.

ADV DE JAGER: But the most important thing for them to know, 
was where exactly the explosion was going to take place, 100 paces 
or 500 paces away.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They knew that it was 100 paces, they were 
present.  It is 100 meter.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you tell them that it was going to be 100 
meter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They were present when we were preparing the 
car.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but the preparation of the car does not tell 
them exactly when the car would explode.  They were present during 
the preparation, but did you discuss this type of detail, in other 
words take up position 200 paces further on and if the thing doesn't 
explode after 100 metres, then you must shoot?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I didn't discuss it in such detail with them.  But 
it could have been.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you speak of so many metres from two 
points, what are the two points?  It must be the point where they 
would have to place themselves and the point where the explosion is 
supposed to take place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That you must have told them, otherwise the 
whole thing wouldn't make sense.  You must have told them that 
people are going to be blown up at this point.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

ADV JANSEN: Thank you Mr 
Chairman.  Jansen is the name on behalf of applicant Marthinus Ras. 
 Mr Nieuwoudt you were in charge of this operation, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV JANSEN: You would have been aware of the detail of the 
operation right down to the finest details?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV JANSEN: You involved head office in the operation because 
you didn't have the necessary technical and other facilities, is that 
correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you say that, Mr Nieuwoudt?  I am 
surprised you agreed to that, unless I misunderstood the evidence?  
If you didn't have to make use of technical experts, would you have 
done, would you have proceeded with the operation without the 
head office?  Would you still not have sought the approval of head 
office?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, as I understood it, Mr Gilbert made those 
arrangements with head office.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he is asking you, why did you involve head 
office?  Maybe let me ask you that way?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Pardon me?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you involve head office?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because we didn't have the necessary abilities 
to plant the bomb, it had to be done in a professional way.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nieuwoudt, you informed Mr Gilbert 
because he was your senior and you expected Mr Gilbert to get an 
approval from head office?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And whether or not you would have used 
whatever method or whatever, you would still have tried to make 
sure that you got the necessary approval, isn't it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Jansen?

ADV JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nieuwoudt, you 
knew very well what support you  required from head quarters, in 
other words what was it that they had which you did not have?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is like that, we did not have the necessary 
capacity, but the arrangements were made with Brigadier Gilbert 
with head quarters.

ADV JANSEN: You have just mentioned in answer to a question 
from the Chairman, that you did not have the capacity to 
manufacture the bomb, to plant the bomb.  At that stage you already 
knew that a bomb would be involved?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so, yes, because Gilbert had told me 
that we should create the impression that the ANC was responsible 
for that.

ADV JANSEN: Yes, but that could mean a lot of things.  It usually 
means that Makarov pistols had to be used?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is like that, yes.

ADV JANSEN: At which do you say the method or the manner of 
elimination, at what stage was that discussed with you for the first 
time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was when Gilbert gave me a direct 
instruction and he told me that we had to use a limpet mine to create 
the impression that the ANC was responsible.

ADV JANSEN: The planning had already been done, and that was 
even before there was contact with head office on the 12th of 
December?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know whether he had already cleared 
this matter with head office.

ADV JANSEN: I want to correct myself, I am not referring to 
contact with head office, but I am referring to contact with Van 
Rensburg.  Those discussions had to take place before you left Port 
Elizabeth with Gilbert?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV JANSEN: In other words the details of what the operation 
would physically entail?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: All I can remember what Gilbert told me 
regarding the limpet mine, that it should appear as if the ANC was 
responsible.  That was all, he did not discuss any detail.

ADV JANSEN: At least he wanted a bomb to be used?