Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR STANDER: Mr Molefe, you were telling us yesterday, when you were taken home on the night, you were taken from your home at around 2 o'clock in the morning.  I would like you to tell us where you were taken after you were arrested there.

SERAME MOLEFE: I was taken first to Batu police station where they deposited the 16 bullets for safekeeping which they found at my premises according to them yes.  Thereafter I was taken to Fountain Street.  I think when we arrived at Fountain Street it was round about half past four in the morning of the 26th.  The raid was supposed to have taken place on the 25th, the evening of the 5th month, '93.  But then they arrived at my place around 2, which was on the 26th in the morning and as I'm saying at 4H30 I was taken - I was at Fountain Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say what month?

SERAME MOLEFE: The 5th, the 5th month of '93.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken after you went to Parkway police station?

SERAME MOLEFE: Where was I taken after Parkway?  Did you say Parkway?

MR STANDER: Parkweg.

SERAME MOLEFE: I was taken I'm saying, first to Batu police station, second to Fountain.

MR STANDER: I'm sorry, that's my mistake.  After you were taken to Batu police station, you went then to?

SERAME MOLEFE: Fountain Street.

MR STANDER: On what Floor at Fountain Street?

SERAME MOLEFE: I'm not very certain, I don't want to bind myself, it could have been 4, it could have been 5, I'm not certain.

MR STANDER: Who was present there in Fountain Street when you were taken there, whom you recognised?

SERAME MOLEFE: Well, Warrant Officer Jantjie.  At my place I'd already learned because I asked who was everybody after Shaw had indicated his name and okay, nobody told me about Jantjie's name but in the process I learnt that he was Jantjie.  Okay, he was there and Motsamai too was there and the others I didn't know, I was seeing them for the first time, the very Shaw himself.

MR STANDER: Were you assaulted in Fountain Street?

SERAME MOLEFE: Yes.

MR STANDER: Can you describe to us?

SERAME MOLEFE: Okay, I'll do so.  When I came there they wanted to know, the very person I say identified himself as Shaw, wanted to know more about the 16 bullets, then I said: "Okay, you have arrested me with the bullets and you know my name, you came to Serame and Xhosa I admit, that's myself and that I am a member of the PAC".
	Beyond that really there was nothing I was going to say.  "Charge me with the bullets which are in front of you".  Okay, then that infuriated them and their aggression against me started, you know, coming.  I was clapped, you know, hit with a fist by the very man Motsamai.  I regard him as a collaborator in the whole thing.  I did not ...[indistinct] of his participation, I wouldn't have been where I was because of his reports through the years.  So even if he did not on that day, physically, psychologically he has played his part.  And I told them then that: "Okay, according to International Law, okay, I've just told you that and unfortunately do whatever you want to do".  Then they were saying to me: "...[no translation] with MK.

MR STANDER: Very well, you were assaulted by Motsamai, were you assaulted by anybody else?  I'm speaking of that specific time.

MR STANDER: ...[inaudible] it was not just one person but two people hitted at me, you  know, knocking me against - my back against the wall, actually I don't know their names.  From there I was told that I was going to "shit" and I was standing all the time.  Okay, in retaliation I said I was prepared to "shit" that high.  And thereafter, because they saw I was prepared, I'd made my prayers, they took me away to Bensvlei.
	Then after a few hours, I think around 10, I was fetched there and formally issued with a - that is now all the things they were alleging against me, accusing me of.  On the, during the process Nicholson was amongst the people.  They were changing, that is now, hands on me. This was would come, everyone would come to pose his questions.  Nicholson was one of them and he also clapped me because at one point I can say exactly what made him to clap me.

MR STANDER: Just a minute please.
	Was Mr Motsamai present in the later assaults upon you?

SERAME MOLEFE: Yes, he was there to be an interpreter apparently but I was doing the interpretation for myself.  He was sitting by and looking at me, you know, all the time.  Even when this very Landman, on the 28th, on the morning of the 28th, there was again Landman who came to knock my head repeatedly, three times I think, against the wall.  Kopi was there, Morakile was there.

MR STANDER: Did they take part in the assaults?  Or let me put it differently, did Motsamai take any part in the assaults that took place in his presence?

SERAME MOLEFE: I'm saying physically there is nothing, psychologically there is something against me ...[indistinct]

MR STANDER: Let's leave it at that please.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Earlier on you mentioned ...[indistinct] and I thought you said something to that effect.  Did you earlier on also say that physically Motsamai did not assault you except he assaulted you psychologically?  Is my note correct?

SERAME MOLEFE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You regarded him as a collaborator?

SERAME MOLEFE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] is on the first occasion. He was not one of those who assaulted you but he was physically present and you regarded him as having psychologically assaulted you?  Is that the position?

SERAME MOLEFE: Yes.  I think as a policeman, when he sees people doing things that are unaccepted in the police tradition then he should object.  If he fails to object then he's agreeing to everything.

MR STANDER: Mr Molefe, when the Chairman asked you the last question he referred you to the first occasion, the evening when you were arrested and taken to Fountain Street.  And the question he asked you was whether at that stage you had been assaulted by Motsamai at Fountain Street or whether it was mere psychological assaults.

SERAME MOLEFE: ...[inaudible] I've said.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions for the witness, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	I must confess Professor, I don't understand the relevance of your evidence but I'm putting it to you, as far as you implicate any of the persons that I act for in any illegal or unlawful act, it is denied.  
	Thank you Mr Chairman.

SERAME MOLEFE: ...inaudible] feelings Sir.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR STANDER: I have no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: No questions M'Lord.

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I forgot to ask something of the witness.
	Mr Molefe, do you know a person called Nichos?

SERAME MOLEFE: Very much so.

ADV MEMANI: Nichos?

SERAME MOLEFE: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: Now, who is Nichos?

SERAME MOLEFE: Nichos is the person who came to my rescue when nobody else could employ me because of the attitude carried by the employers at the time against people of a political background.

ADV MEMANI: Now, is it correct that as a result of the fact that Nichos employed you, Erasmus and other policemen used to visit his shop?

SERAME MOLEFE: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: That there used to go there and behave ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Is there any application for assaults on Nichos?  ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: That is so, M'Lord.

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: I'm going through page 146 onwards M'Lord, it's at paragraph 4.  It says that
"I, Sergeant Mamome and others bombed a house belonging to a businessman Nichos"
Is it correct that they used to go there and behave in an intimidatory fashion against him?

SERAME MOLEFE: Correct.

ADV MEMANI: Is it correct that they used to question the fact that he was using green and gold in the colours when he was decorating his shop?