Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... they were involved in the actual abduction.

WITNESS:   That's correct.  And of course, Mr Chairman, I think if one can speak to the station commander of Lothair Police Station at the time, and Chris Dieklifs can also confirm this, and Koos Schutte, Sergeant Koos Schutte, is also still available.  And apart from that Mr David Tshikalanga can, I am sure, reflect what injuries he had.  And of course Mr van der Lith too, Lieutenant Koos van der Lith, JAC van der Lith, J A C van der Lith, that's now a colonel at Pietersburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe, are there questions you wish to put to this witness?

CHAIRPERSON: QUESTIONED BY MR MSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee, when Joe Pillay was interrogated and assaulted by Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie in Pretoria were you present?

WITNESS:   I was present, yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell this Committee how was he being assaulted by these two people in detail please?

WITNESS:   As 	/I indicated

CHAIRPERSON: I indicated it was a few clouts with the back-hand and an

CHAIRPERSON: open hand, because he was so severely beaten up, and of course the assault with the so-called truth serum that was administered, which of course is also assault.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you partake in the assault yourself?

WITNESS:   Not at all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do at the time when this assault was taking place, and interrogation?  What role did you play?

WITNESS:   I was just standing by, Mr Chairman, like the two Military Intelligence officers, Major Kallie Steyn and Tobie van Rensburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee, the Pretoria you are referring to here, is it the Vlakplaas?  Where the interrogation was taking place was it at the Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   The - can you just repeat the question please.

CHAIRPERSON: Where you say the interrogation and assault by Andy Taylor and Fourie took place in Pretoria, was it at Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   No, Mr Chairman, it was the observatory on - I think it's Johan Rissik Drive if I have got it correct, next to Klapperkop Fort.  There's this observatory which is converted into a secret military base, where they always had secret meetings from - with revolutionaries from Angola and - such as Jonas Savimbi and people from Mozambique.

MR DE JAGER: That was an old fort in the 1900 war, and it was converted into a museum sort of.

WITNESS:   The observatory, Mr Chairman?

MR DE JAGER: Yes.  Isn't that the one at Klapperkop.

WITNESS:   It is not on that same premises, it's just past Klapperkop Fort.  There is this observatory, and it's got a bunker, an underground bunker, which is converted into a lecture

MR DE JAGER: /hall, and

MR DE JAGER: hall, and as I say they had specific houses there, certain

MR DE JAGER: class houses, an A, B, C and a D house, where they kept secret guests during meetings that they held at that dome.  It was converted in a very ultra modern meeting hall.

MR DE JAGER: Now, as you have indicated that you were just there when the interrogation assault was taking place, what role were you to play there?

WITNESS:   Nothing at all apart from looking after Joe Pillay, because Joe Pillay was abducted by my people, and I had to await further instructions, depending on the outcome of the interrogation of Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie.

MR DE JAGER: What would the, "look after," involve or entail, Mr Coetzee?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?

MR DE JAGER: What would the, "look after Joe Pillay," entail?  What were you to do in order to show that you were looking after him?

WITNESS:   Well, he was my responsibility as far as to prevent him from getting away, escaping, to get him back to Lothair, or wherever I was instructed to get him to, so I was just standing by.

MR DE JAGER: To prevent him from getting away or running away, and to ensuring that what is to be done - meaning the assault interrogation takes place on him.  Is that what you mean?

WITNESS:   Well, actually Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie was just doing the interrogation.  He was my baby, if you want to call it that way, because he was abducted by my people.  And it was up to headquarters, Brigadier Skoon, Mr Chairman, to eventually then decide on his fate.  So I had to be present the whole time, and I was present until he was removed by Sergeant Koos Schutte to Lothair Police Station.

MR DE JAGER: You see, Mr Coetzee, that's what I have a problem

MR DE JAGER: /with.  You

MR DE JAGER: with.  You say he was your baby because he was abducted by

MR DE JAGER: your people.  Now, if he was your baby what were you to do with him?

WITNESS:   I had to be the man responsible to guard him, awaiting further instructions depending on the outcome of the interrogation, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Was he detained at various places, various police stations?

WITNESS:   No, he was not detained at any other police station than Lothair Police Station in the end, but not whilst being in Pretoria.

MR DE JAGER: Was he at all the time under your surveillance?

WITNESS:   He was until - up to the time that I took him to Sergeant Schutte's house, to the servant's quarters, where he then stayed with David Tshikalanga for a very short time.  I can't remember whether he slept there a night or two before we were ordered to let him go to - or that he must be taken to Lothair Police Station.

MR DE JAGER: Will I be correct to state that since you were always present you witnessed all the assaults - all the further assaults on him up til he was released back into Swaziland?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Can you tell then, Mr Coetzee, all the assaults that took place on him - when and how was this done.

WITNESS:   It was ... (intervention)

MR DE JAGER: Other than the Pretoria assault.

WITNESS:   No, just in Pretoria at the observatory.  After that he was not assaulted at all when it was proved that he knew nothing.  It was a question of the Chief of Security, General Johan Coetzee, and a senior official from Foreign Affairs that has sorted out the problem with the Swazi authorities already then, and it was a concern to get the bruises healed as quickly as possible.  They couldn't take him

MR DE JAGER: /back at

MR DE JAGER: back at that same day, or day thereafter, because his eyes

MR DE JAGER: were blue, purple blue, and his face was swollen, and they had to keep him to sort of get that sort of healed in some way before they could take him back.

MR DE JAGER: Now, for how long was he in your custody before he could be released back home?

WITNESS:   In Pretoria I would guess two, maybe three days, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Now, you said in Pretoria, and where else was he kept?

WITNESS:   Lothair Police Station.

MR DE JAGER: For how long?

WITNESS:   For about a week, where he was under the supervision and in the custody of Ermelo Security Branch, more specific the branch commander, Lieutenant Chris Dieklifs.

MR DE JAGER: And where again?

WITNESS:   After that he took him through to Swaziland in the boot of the car.  He wasn't detained any further.

MR DE JAGER: So all in all he was in your custody for a period of eight days, will I be right?

WITNESS:   In my personal custody in Pretoria about two, I would guess, maybe three days.

MR DE JAGER: Then you handed him over.

WITNESS:   Then Sergeant Schutte and Mr David Tshikalanga took him to Lothair Police Station.

MR DE JAGER: But I thought you said he was your baby, you were to take care of him.  Now, why didn't you be with him right through up until his release?

WITNESS:   Sergeant Koos Schutte was one of my men, and as well as David Tshikalanga, and I was then ordered by Brigadier Skoon, after the meeting with the Swazi authorities by our senior officers and senior people in Foreign Affairs, to hand him over to Chris Dieklifs at Ermelo Security, who worked the Swaziland area and who would see to it that he gets back

MR DE JAGER: /to Swaziland.