Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I want you to understand when I explain to you, to know why he was imprisoned, I learnt of that in prison.  He was explaining to me, he was telling me what happened.  We were then in prison.  I was in prison for my own things as well.

MS TANZER: Were you together at the prison, were you both prisoners at that time?

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, please.  There are certain things which are pretty obvious.  I mean, is there a suggestion that he was not prison at that point?

MS TANZER: Well as I heard I'm sure he said that he met when they were released on bail at the hostel and that they did not have any discussions in prison.  That's how I understood it.  Perhaps I'm incorrect, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: His evidence is that he first became aware of Mr Nosenga upon his release from prison.  That is when he met him at the hostel.  And the reason why he stood out is because he spoke Sotho which was unusual at the hostel.
	What he is saying about the prison is that Nosenga told him when he was in prison what he had done.  Do you understand that?

MS TANZER: I do understand that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you, Mr Magubane, at any stage be imprisoned together with Mr Nosenga?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I met him in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: It was late '92.  That is towards the end of 1993, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS TANZER: Did Mr Nosenga tell you what the charges were or what was he convicted of that he was in prison?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He was arrested for shoplifting or fighting in town.  He also told me that he shot people in Zone 13 while he was a member of the IFP.  After that now he will change his story and say he shot members of the IFP.  He said to me he was suspected for the murders in Zone 13.  He said it is alleged that he shot people together with Getisi, but he didn't tell me when he met Getisi.

CHAIRPERSON: When you met Nosenga in prison, that is towards the end of, in 1993, had you already met him at the hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MS TANZER: The record will show that Mr Nosenga was in fact arrested and convicted for activities in respect of which he attacked Zone 12 and Sebokeng ANC members and not IFP members.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MS TANZER: Can we come back to this meeting.  Mr Nosenga made a statement as a witness to this meeting on the 10th of June, that certain speeches were given in which they were told to kill the dogs and he even said that Themba Khosa said that a certain insect should be killed, referring to the Boipatong residents, saying because a certain IFP member was killed in the location, what are you comments?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's telling lies.

MS TANZER: He further stated that the Indunas agreed with the words of Themba Khosa.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's lying.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that Mr Peens was present at the meeting and he was speaking Afrikaans which was translated.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's lying.

MS TANZER: He's further going to give evidence and state that Peens had agreed with the statements of Themba Khosa and he said that he would supply Caspirs near the Boipatong location, what are your comments?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's lying.

MS TANZER: It was further mentioned at the meeting that they would supply Rooikop, a policeman known as Rooikop, with weapons who will give it to Themba Khosa who will bring it to the hostel.  What are you comments there?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: When you talk about Rooikop, I don't know him, I used to hear about him.  When I was still involved in housebreaking I used to hear about Rooikop.  He used to work together with Barnard.  So this Rooikop he's referring to I don't know.

MS TANZER: But what is interesting is that as per the statement of Mr Nosenga, weapons were delivered on the day of the 17th of June to the hostel, is that correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well I don't whether weapons were delivered on that day.  What I can say is that we used to donate as the community of the hostel, and buy weapons.
	If it happened, maybe it was something that was done by people who were in leadership.  The only thing that I know is that we will be called to a meeting and those people who were working will donate an amount of about R15,00 and that money will be used to buy weapons.  That is what I know.  And the person they trusted when it comes to weapons, was Damarra Chonco.

MS TANZER: But weapons were delivered on the day of the attack, is that correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I can agree because I saw Damarra's car but whether they were from the car or from the rooms, I don't know.

MS TANZER: Did you take - were you part of a meeting that took place on about the 14th of June, three days before the attack on Boipatong, when the decision to attack was taken?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I was not.

MS TANZER: Well Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that there was a meeting on the 14th of June and at that meeting the decision to attack Boipatong was taken and it was decided that everyone should be killed, including women and children.
	He further said that at this meeting they were given instructions, the "they" being the people at the meeting, to bring back the weapons they were being supplied with, after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be at the meeting of the 14th?

MS TANZER: That would be.

CHAIRPERSON: So they were told at that meeting, to bring back the weapons that they had used in the attack, that they would use for the attack?

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga they were told they would be provided with weapons and when they returned, they must return the weapons, yes, back.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know anything about that?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: There's nothing that I know about that.

MS TANZER: When the signal was sounded or the, on the evening of the 17th, did you go straight to the stadium?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that night I went to the stadium.

MS TANZER: And as you gave evidence, when you became aware that you were going to attack Boipatong, did you drink ndelezi?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I drank ndelezi.

MS TANZER: How did the ndelezi make you feel?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: There was never a change in me.  Everything that I did I was aware of what I was doing, and I was aware of the place I was at.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga states and he's going to give evidence to this Committee, that he arrived at the stadium, he drank ndelezi, it made him feel strong, and he was given an AK47 which he used on the attack in Boipatong.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's lying when he says ndelezi makes him feel strong, he's lying.  When he says that it made him strong and brave to kill the people of Boipatong, he's lying.  The only thing that I can say is that when I drank ndelezi and you shoot at me, you will never shoot at me, you won't be able to shoot at me.  That is what I know about ndelezi.  It works.  I have proved that it works.

MS TANZER: I didn't quite get that, can you explain that again?  How does ndelezi work?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he says what he knows is that if he has drunk ndelezi, you can't shoot at him.  Right?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.  You'll never shoot at me after drinking ndelezi.

MS TANZER: The previous applicants we heard so far said they all drank ndelezi that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, they said that, so what?

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence and states that after leaving the stadium with the weapons, you actually, you pass under a bridge in leaving the hostel and you arrived at a big open field before the township, where he saw about four to six Caspirs.  He describes them as yellow in colour.  What is your comment?