Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I drove the vehicle and one of us always remained behind in the vehicle.

MR TAKA: Now Mr Labuschagne, my instructions are that that explosive device was placed right next to the shack, the corrugated iron shack of the victim, Mr Ramorakane, immediately next to that shack, almost against the shack.  Your comment?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: I can speak of other incidents when I was present, we always placed these devices close to the houses.

MR TAKA: And I'm also informed according to my instructions, that when that device exploded it caused extensive damage but it also broke two legs of one of the victims who is here today in this hall.  He sustained two fractures of both legs as a result of that explosion and that victim is Mr Semelo from Viljoenskroon: S-E-M-E-L-O.

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I carry no knowledge of that.  It was not mentioned in any of the papers I read at that time.

MR TAKA: But if my instructions are correct, do you agree with me that it was placed in such a manner that it could cause even death under the circumstances because it was so close to where the people were actually sleeping?  It was not just a bomb in the street you know or a bomb on a "spoorlyn", it was specifically placed right next to the wall of the shack.

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, any bomb, it doesn't matter where you place it, whether it be in a vehicle or next a place or next to a railway line, as I've explained before the possibility remains that you could never be sure that no-one would get injured.  So whether you place it 10 metres away or whether you place it right next to the shack, the shrapnel and the damage is caused in a much wider radius, not necessarily where it's been placed.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think the point that Mr Taka is getting at is that the fact that it was placed right next to the wall of the shack probably changed the possibility of injury to the probability of injury, it made it far more likely.  Like if I go and put a bomb in the middle of the audience here I'm definitely going to injure somebody.  If I put outside the wall 20 metres from the building, there's a possibility, if I put it right next to the window there's a probability.  I think what he's saying is the fact that it was placed right next to the wall, it wasn't just a question of bad luck that somebody got injured, any reasonable person would regard it as being a probable consequence of the placement.  Is that what you're saying?

MR TAKA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You know in other words, why wasn't the bomb placed 30 metres from the wall, why next to it?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, like I've said before I was not present myself, I did not actually go and place the bomb myself.  But what I also want to say is that the shrapnel, it doesn't matter the distance, it was probably the explosive power which damaged the house, but in terms of death it does not matter where you place the bomb or when it comes to injuring or killing someone.

MR TAKA: And I'm told that that very explosion also has caused almost permanent deafness to the wife of the victim, Ramorakane, next to whose shack this bomb was placed.  Are you aware of that?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I'm not aware of it.

MR TAKA: Now Mr Labuschagne, you said that you are very sorry about these events that took place, is that correct?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: Did you ever make any attempts to meet some of the victims of your deeds, to say to them: "I am sorry"?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I think that is why we are here today because we could not approach these people ourselves and that is why we are here today, to tell these people we are sorry, it was not aimed at you personally, it was a propaganda campaign and we wanted to give power to our political negotiators.  So we are sorry for the people, we are sorry for what happened but at that stage we had to do it to place pressure on the government of the day to recognise the ideal for a Volkstaat.

MR TAKA: But it's about five years now since some of those incidents took place and some of the victims don't stay very far from you you know, Wesselsbron, Bothaville, they are in the same vicinity.  Are you still saying that it was not possible to meet even one of them just to say: "I'm sorry"?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as I've said previously we are here today to tell these people that we are sorry.  We shall meet them afterwards, I have no problem with that.  We did not want anybody to be hurt or killed in this process.  The fact that we did not make any contact with them is difficult, where does one go to find these people and we do not know what their reaction would be if we went straight to them.  So I have no problem and I think that is why we are here today, to ask for forgiveness.

MR TAKA: You say you have no problem meeting these people?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: No.

MR TAKA: Okay.  Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Taka.  Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir, just one or two.
	Mr Labuschagne, as I get your explanation it looks like the ANC and the National Party Government were both your enemies during those days when you had to wage these attacks, is that correct?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson, and that was because they negotiated in Kempton Park and they had no reaction to the so-called Afrikaners at that stage who wanted to negotiate for a Volkstaat, they did not make it any easier for them.

MR MAPOMA: Now Sir, what I want to get is your explanation on this.  It looks like, Sir, during your attacks to these targets if there had to be a possibility of the death of someone, that had to be a black person and from the consequences that has been the case.  Why was it like that?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was not so.  I speak under correction, maybe you would know better with all the documents in your possession, but there were more attacks on railway lines and according to my knowledge, many trains were derailed.  And ten to one most of those train drivers and possibly other people who were on those trains could have been white people, specifically the drivers of these trains.  So it was not just aimed against the blacks, and that is what I stated initially.  	We did not concern ourselves with explosions in those black townships for long because the possibility was greater when we continued with these attacks, that somebody would be injured or killed and that is why we moved away to the railway lines and later to the power lines.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, I've no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Loubscher, do you have any re-examination?

MR LOUBSCHER: Just two questions, Sir.
	Mr Labuschagne, were you at any stage before today aware of the identity of any of the victims, any of the persons who were injured?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: And with regards lastly to the times when these devices were detonated and the choice of targets, do you accept full responsibility thereof?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, I do, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Labuschagne, did you belong to any specific - did your cell have a name or were you part of the "Ystergarde Orde van die Dood" or, anything like that?  What division of the AWB did you come under?