Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Smuts?

LUNGILE MAZWI: (still under oath)

MR SMUTS: (continued)
	Mr Mazwi, yesterday we were dealing with the confession proved in the criminal trial and the text of it as it appears on page 81 of the judgment.
	We have dealt with the sentence which states we went to a certain spot where whites arrived for holidays and you said this was what you were told by the police, is that correct?  You were taken there as I understand it, by your colleagues from Port St Johns.  What did they tell you about that area?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I was told that that was a camp.  It was a camping site for visitors.

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, I heard no reply.

INTERPRETER: I was told that it was a camping site, the place was a camping site.

MR SMUTS: I am not receiving a reply from the Interpreter Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: I was told that the place was a camping site.  The place was a camping site.

MR SMUTS: I apologise Mr Chairman, I wasn't receiving a reply.

INTERPRETER: The place was a camping site.

ADV DE JAGER: The translation that came through was I was told it was a camping site for visitors.

MR SMUTS: So, Mr Mazwi, the fact that you were told that this was a camping site for visitors, must have alerted you to the fact during the holiday season, that there could be visitors who could be holiday makers in the area?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is correct.  I have a problem with the microphone.  I had a problem with my headphone.  Okay.

MR SMUTS: Thank you.  The statement continues our vehicle which belongs to Vuyani Nyalukana was parked a distance from the holiday resort.
	Does that correctly reflect the position?

CHAIRPERSON: What position, whether he made that statement or ...

MR SMUTS: Is that a correct reflection of what took place on the day?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that is true, but I just wanted to clarify something.  I did not see the place with my own eyes.  Even the house, I did not see the house.  I was only at a spot where the incident took place.
	I heard people telling me that there was a house and a camping site there.  I never saw the place with my own eyes.

MR SMUTS: Yes.  Your statement continues some of us, about four, went to the flats to check whether the whites were there.  Is that what in fact happened?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, some people went there to check.

MR SMUTS: And the statement continues they came back and reported that they had found an old lady and a girl (whites).

LUNGILE MAZWI: I cannot say that it was true that they found an old lady and a girl.  I got that from the Prosecutor.  I did not get that information from the comrades.  The comrades who went there to check in the house.

MR SMUTS: Can you firstly explain who are you referring to when you say you got that from the Prosecutor?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I got that from the Investigators of the Murder and Robbery Department that there was an old lady there and a girl.  I got that information from the Investigators.

MR SMUTS: Was that prior to your making this confession to the Magistrate?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, they told me when we were there at the Murder and Robbery Department.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, then could you kindly tell us what did your four colleagues report to you, on coming back, what did they see, what did they observe there?

LUNGILE MAZWI: As I said yesterday, it is difficult for me to explain at a time when the people went to fetch water from the river, but yesterday I said that at some stage I went to the shop and when I came back, I got my colleagues together, talking.  They were from those houses, but what I heard was that there were no one inside there, when I inquired.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, I've got a problem here.  The Interpreter's voice and the witness' voice, both voices are coming through simultaneously, so I can't distinguish if I am on channel 2.
	Could the witness kindly repeat his answer and could it be translated so that I could find out whether it is still mixed up.

LUNGILE MAZWI: I am saying it is difficult for me to explain everything that happened at the time just before the attack because some people went to the river to get some water and I went to the shop and when the people who went in there to inspect the place, they came back, but when they came, I was still in the shop and they were with the other comrades.

MR SMUTS: The shop that you went to, was that the shop that belonged to the relatives of your fellow applicant, Mr Hermans?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, that was his family shop.

MR SMUTS: Was the area then known to Mr Hermans at least, although it wasn't known to you?

LUNGILE MAZWI: As far as I am concerned, he is from there, he is originally from that place.

MR SMUTS: Is it your evidence then that when you enquired, those who had gone to scout out the area, reported that they had found nobody there?

LUNGILE MAZWI: That is the answer that I got, that they said inside the houses, there was no one, but there were cars that the people were supposed to wait for.  They said those cars had gone to a certain coast.

MR SMUTS: Who said that the cars had gone to a certain coast?

LUNGILE MAZWI: It is difficult sir, to differentiate because I did not ask a specific person, I was just speaking generally.  I was getting answers from anyone, so therefore I cannot be so sure who actually gave me that particular answer.

MR SMUTS: But did you get the answer from your colleagues who had gone to scout out the area, one or other of them?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I got that information from the comrades who were sitting together with the comrades who went in there to check in the flats.

MR SMUTS: And was it reported to you how they had come by the information that somebody had gone, that people had gone to this other coast?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I did not make any follow up concerning that.  I had to wait for the time.

MR SMUTS: What do you mean that you had to wait for the time?

LUNGILE MAZWI: As we were sitting there, we were waiting for those cars who were out, the cars that were said to be gone to another coast.

MR SMUTS: And your evidence to this Committee is that the Investigating Officers told you that there would have been an old lady and a girl who were white at the bungalow at the time that the investigating party went to have a look, is that your evidence?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, I said so.

MR SMUTS: And that would have been - in what context would they have said that to you?

LUNGILE MAZWI: It is because I was denying that I was also in there, they said I must not fool myself, because my colleagues told them that there was an old lady there and a girl on that day of the attack.

MR SMUTS: So are you saying the Investigating Officers said to you that you had been told by your colleagues that they found an old lady and a girl there?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The Investigating Officers got that information from my colleagues or comrades.

MR SMUTS: In the judgement dealing with the admissibility of this confession, at page 4073, the learned Judge dealt with your evidence regarding that sentence, the sentence which reads they came back and reported that they had found an old lady and a girl (white) and he records at the bottom of page 4073 at line 23 that your evidence was that the idea of mentioning the old lady came from you.
	At the top of 4074 the judgement continues ...

MR ZILWA: I am sorry Mr Chairman, I am not aware of page 4073.  I am not sure which volume or bundle my learned friend is referring to.

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, it is volume 27, the typed transcript dealing with the judgement on the admissibility of the confessions in the criminal trial.

MR ZILWA: I must say I don't have that document Mr Chairman.  I don't know if any of the Committee members has it?

CHAIRPERSON: That is what the Judge believed and said that he made a finding about, have you got any comment about it?