Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, you understand Xhosa, you said?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct Mr Chair.

MR OBOSE: To say down with the Head of State, what does that imply?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: To say down with the Head of State, I presume that the Head of State at that stage was Brigadier Gqozo, that he must step down.

MR OBOSE: Yes, now what do you mean nothing was said?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That he must resign.

MR OBOSE: Yes.  Now what do you mean that nothing was said about him stepping down, etc, or resigning or something political?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: No, I did not say, Mr Chairman, I did not say nothing was said.  I said the only time I heard that something was said about Brigadier Gqozo was when they sang and they said "down with Gqozo".  I said that changed right during the night.  If they want to make that political, that is the only time that political things were said.

MR OBOSE: You say an action plan had to be mapped out, I find it a bit strange to understand.  Mapped out in a meeting, an action plan should have been, is that, do I understand you to be talking about action plans, mapped out in a gathering of over, maybe over 2 000, 3 000 people, I don't understand that?  Is that what normally happens, 3 000 people maps out a plan?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, I don't think the Ciskei Police consisted of 3 000 people, I think they were closer to 2 000, if it was 2 000, but be that as it may be.    Why I said there was - and proof of that is a lot of these applicants that gave evidence, did not go what was going on in that meeting, that proves my point that no plan of action, that meeting had no plan of action and that is why I said that they had no political venue there.  That was something that was made up according to my, myself, that was something that was made up by them.

MR OBOSE: All right.  Mr Sims, I am not sure, you were here as from Monday, I am not sure what you make out of the fact that Police armed themselves with R5 rifles, they patrolled the parameters of the Bisho Police College, you yourself said a casspir armoured vehicle had blocked a road out of the College, Officers were rounded up and brought to the College.  What more could have been done or should have been done in the context, to fit in with your understanding of an action plan?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, the arming of the Policemen, the blocking of the road, the blocking of the road was to prevent us, if  I say us, the Officers, to leave the premises.  That I saw later when we were in the meeting, the reason for that.  The arming of the members, that was said by themselves at the meeting, that the South African Police Riot Unit or Stability Unit, were called in and they were going to mobilise at King William's Town, that they would come and free the hostages and that they can arm themselves as well, they've also go the same arms as the Police, let's say Riot Unit.

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, for anything to happen, there must be a reason, that is generally human nature, isn't that so?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is so.

MR OBOSE: For an overthrow, a coup to occur, there must be some grievance, isn't that so?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I am sure there must be.

MR OBOSE: Now, the grievance can be anything, it could be that Police are not paid, it could be that soldiers were not paid as we read in other countries this happened, isn't that so?   There must be a reason for a coup to happen, it doesn't occur in the air, is that so?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: It must be, yes.

MR OBOSE: And naturally, the reason why the coup which is the cause of the coup, would essentially in the course of discussions tend to be central in whatever discussion the people who will eventually stage the coup, will talk about, isn't that what would be expected?  It will feature, the reason will feature in the course of the discussion?  For this reason, therefore we can't have this person in charge?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is exactly Mr Chairman, what I thought, that if they planned to overthrow or to take action for Brigadier Gqozo to step down, it would surface at the meeting.

MR OBOSE: And it never surfaced despite the sloganeering and the singing according to you?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: It never surfaced, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: I am sure never will, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Obose.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairperson, just a few.  Colonel, am I correct if I call you Colonel?  Colonel Sims, when did you, when were you seconded to the Ciskei Police Force?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, I think March, sometime 1992, early 1992.

MR MAPOMA: And the Head of State was Brigadier Gqozo, already then, am I correct?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: I take it that when you were brought into the College hall, you had nothing to do with moneys, Police moneys, you did not embezzle any money and I take it as well that no allegations were levelled against you?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: And I also take it that you had nothing to do with the positioning of the Police Officers?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: And the only sin that you had in the eyes of the applicants of course, was that you are a senior Police Officer?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: And that is the only reason why you were brought into that hall as far as you could see, yourself as well?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: I take it that you are not the only Police Officer, you are not the only senior Police Officer against whom no allegations were levelled, who was kept hostage there?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is true, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: When they demanded the keys to the armoury, did they ultimately gain access to the armoury as far as you know?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: They eventually gained access, Mr Chairman, they got the keys.

MR MAPOMA: And then they effectively armed themselves?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: Did it not occur to you that something of a coup was being planned as a result of this forceful armoury being gained entry to, by these revolutionary forces now?  Did it not occur perhaps in your mind?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, nothing.  I did not think anything about a coup or them trying to force Brigadier Gqozo to step down.  As I said earlier on, the preparations for the forthcoming elections or the then forthcoming elections, were already being made.  That is what they were called to the hall for.  I didn't think that they were planning for it.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  I thought Lieutenant perhaps you could link the slogans "down with Gqozo" and the forceful access to armoury, with that intended purpose.  Did it not occur to your mind perhaps?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Not at all, Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.   You said in your evidence in chief that the only thing that you heard, referring to politics now, was when it was announced that Gqozo had since resigned and I take it that it was announced in that hall that he has resigned?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Ms Collett, have you got any questions?

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Colonel is it correct that these people at some stage wanted Brigadier Gqozo to come and address them about their pensions?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, I can't recall that, but I won't deny that either.

MS COLLETT: Was anybody at any stage mandated to go and tell Brigadier Gqozo that senior members had been taken hostage to secure him resigning his post?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Not at all that I heard there, Mr Chairman, nothing that I heard.