Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, you can give a list to the committee with regards to the successes you had by means of interrogating people, and cache depots pointed out by ANC members.   Mr Zeelie, if you were not successful when interrogating these people, what would have happened if all these weaponries stayed in the possession of the ANC?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: It would have led to great loss of human life, as well as serious injuries as well as, I can almost say "miljaard" rands worth of damage, billions.

UNKNOWN: Did you believe or not what you did at that stage, did you contribute in keeping the government in power?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, we'll carry on then with the case of Mr Bopape.   At that stage, where were you stationed, this is now during 1988?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, I was stationed at the Investigation Unit, John Vorster Square.

UNKNOWN: And what was the rank you held at that stage?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I was lieutenant.

UNKNOWN: You also made statements and specifically we can see that's Annexure A in your application, that's page 70, Mr Zeelie.

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct, Your Honour.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, were you involved with the arrest of Stanza Bopape?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: How did you get involved in that?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, firstly at that stage I was a service officer of the Security Force, and I had to assist after hours.   Major Victor was my senior office and he told me, gave me instruction, that Krugersdorp's Security Branch had information according to which a flat in Hillbrow had to be searched for possible ANC terrorists.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, in co-operation with whom did you go and search this flat?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, as I already said, I was in a service group or duty group.   With me was Constable Engelbrecht and also Mostert was part of my group and they accompanied me.

UNKNOWN: At that stage you already had certain information?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Your Honour, not so much complete information, Major Victor only informed me that we have to help Krugersdorp.   Krugersdorp, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Why were you approached and not the Commander Van Niekerk?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: As I already said, I was a duty officer there to assist, and I'd also like to put you more in the picture with regards to the two Investigation Units that did exist.

CHAIRPERSON: You can answer the questions of the advocate, but on page 70 you say that Colonel Van Niekerk accompanied you when arresting Bopape?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Sir, that's a mistake in the statement, he was not present, that's a printing error.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, you went to a specific flat?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That is correct, in Hillbrow.

UNKNOWN: Who did you find there?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: In the flat were two black men, were found.

UNKNOWN: Who were these two black men?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: They were Mr Bopape and Mr Nkosi.

UNKNOWN: Was the flat searched?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes it was.

UNKNOWN: Was illegal literature confiscated?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And the banned literature that was found there in the flat, was that confiscated?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes it was.

UNKNOWN: And the literature, did that have anything to do with the ANC, did it concern the ANC?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And Stanza Bopape and his friend, Nkosi, were they arrested?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Both of them were arrested.

UNKNOWN: Did you assault Bopape during the arrest?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I didn't assault him.   It is possible that at that stage he could have resisted himself against the arrest and that I had used the necessary violence to arrest him.

UNKNOWN: Did anyone else in your presence that you saw assault him?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No.

UNKNOWN: Was Nkosi assaulted in your presence?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No.

UNKNOWN: Were there some of the members who accompanied you, did they have pangas?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No.   Members of the Unrest Unit accompanied us and they had the usual protective uniforms, with their weapons.

UNKNOWN: And after the two people, that's Bopape, the deceased, and Nkosi, had been arrested, what happened to them?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: After the arrest, they were taken downstairs, where they were placed into a vehicle from Krugersdorp.   My members and myself went back to John Vorster and the members from Krugersdorp departed to the West Rand.

UNKNOWN: Did you have anything to do on that particular day with those two people?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No.

UNKNOWN: And were you at some point with Mr Van Niekerk, did you go to West Rand?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, on the 10th, that was the Friday, I went with Colonel Van Niekerk to Roodepoort.

UNKNOWN: Who accompanied you?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: If I can recall correctly, it was only myself and Van Niekerk.

UNKNOWN: On page 71, paragraph 5, on the application, if you can just look at that
"During the deliberations with Captain Jan Kleynhans, myself, Mostert and Engelbrecht were there."
Is that an error?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That is an error, not Mostert or Engelbrecht were present.

UNKNOWN: During these deliberations, was the infor-mation gathered?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And after this information was obtained, did you return to John Vorster Square?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, that is correct.   I just want to mention that the main reason why I accompanied Colonel Van Niekerk to Roodepoort was because I had, or there was, I had to get bomb disposal equipment that came from head office, but I was present.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any personal knowledge or were you informed that the deceased, Bopape, was transferred to John Vorster Square and Nkosi to Sandton?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: When we returned to John Vorster Square, Colonel Van Niekerk and myself took Bopape to John Vorster Square.

UNKNOWN: Was he then detained at John Vorster Square?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I assume that to be the case.

UNKNOWN: As you saw him at that stage, did he have any injuries, did he complain about any injuries?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No, he did not complain about any assaults, and I could also not see any injuries.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct on the 10th of June, according to your information that you had, that Bopape was detained under section 29 on the grounds of a warrant that was issued at that stage by Colonel Du Toit, General Du Toit?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: Yes, I learnt that.

UNKNOWN: And Bopape was detained in terms of that warrant at John Vorster Square?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: I assume that to be the case.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zeelie, when did you have anything to do with Bopape after that?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: On Sunday, the 12th of June, I saw Bopape again.  I was busy with some other work in my office, when Constable Engelbrecht and Warrant Officer Mostert were interrogating Bopape in Engelbrecht's office.

UNKNOWN: Now the place where the interrogation was taking place, was that passage accessible to any other person on a Sunday?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: No, it was not accessible for any other person, there was control of the entry and where the cars were parked in the basement, there is a rolling door and you had to turn it up and down from the inside, and also at the entry of the offices on the ground floor, there's also an entry door that is controlled from the 9th Floor.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct, Mr Zeelie, as according to the testimony in front of the committee, there was information that Bopape was involved with the so-called Maponya group?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: This Maponya group, where did they operate?

CHARLES ALFRED ZEELIE: The Maponya group operated in the Pretoria and even Krugersdorp area.