Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MR CELE: I am referring to the fact that he also fired in the same direction that I did.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were around you at the time when you were firing at this person who was hiding behind a bush - apart from Mr Khumalo?

MR CELE: As I've said before, there were maybe eight, because we were about 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you notice whether any of them also fired in the direction of the person who was hiding behind the bush?

MR CELE: At the time when we fired shots no-one was shooting, nobody else was shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was only yourself and Bongani Khumalo who was firing at that time?

MR CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you wouldn't know as you are sitting here today, whether the person you thought you shot at was indeed shot by you or by Mr Khumalo, you wouldn't say that?

MR CELE: I am certain of the shots that I fired, I'm not sure about Mr Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you and Mr Khumalo were the only ones in your group who fired the shot in the direction of that person?

MR CELE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So sitting here you are unable to say for sure that the shot that you fired landed on the person who was hiding behind the bush.

MR CELE: I am certain that I did fire a shot at that person, because he was very far, he was close.

CHAIRPERSON: How close is close?  Maybe you can give us a better complexion to your evidence, yes?  Can you estimate?

MR CELE: As I'm sitting here, he could be ...(indistinct) right at that table where you are sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: That's quite close, I would say that's about two paces.

MR CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you fired a shot, did you see your shot landing on Mr Cele, or on the person hiding behind the bush?  You were quite close remember.

MR CELE: No, I did not see the shot landing, but if you shoot at somebody you see them falling.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who shot first, was it yourself or Mr Khumalo?

MR CELE: I fired first.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you shot the person fell from the tree, is that what you are saying?

MR CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And at what stage did Mr Khumalo shoot?

MR CELE: Immediately thereafter.  He also shot immediately after I had fired my shot.

CHAIRPERSON: After shooting at this person, did you walk up to him, I mean you were quite close, to see who this person was?

MR CELE: No, we did not.  As I said before, we were just too busy, we were in a hurry, trying to pursue the others.  He was not alone, he had been with others.  So we were hurrying to pursue the rest.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, how did you know that it was Mr Khumalo who had fired immediately after you?

MR CELE: I know Mr Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you recognise him at that stage?

MR CELE: Yes, he was next to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were you unable to recognise the person that you had shot at, when you were only two paces away from him?

MR CELE: It was dark and he was behind a tree, it was not very easy to recognise that person.

CHAIRPERSON: But it wasn't dark enough for you not to see that Mr Khumalo, standing also close to you, had fired a shot in the direction of the same person that you had fired at.

MR CELE: We had been pursuing this person together with Mr Khumalo, and he was standing next to me and when I fired a shot he also fired from his gun.

CHAIRPERSON: If it had been Mr Cele that you had shot at, bearing in mind that this is your father, would you not have recognised him at the time when he fell down?  Would you not have recognised him?  We are not talking about a stranger, we are talking about your father.  Would you not have been able to have recognised him?  You were only two paces away from that person.  We just want an honest answer from you.

MR CELE: Yes, I am telling the truth.  If it's dark  and there are no lights around I would not recognise a person.  Even if you know them you would not recognise them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet you were able to recognise Mr Khumalo.

MR CELE: I have explained that we had been pursuing this person together with Mr Khumalo.  He was close to me, next to me.

CHAIRPERSON: There were also seven other people who you say were in your group, is it not so?  You said there were about eight of you.

MR CELE: They were not just next to me, but at other specific points.  They were actually safeguarding the area so that this person should not be able to escape.  The person who was next to me was Mr Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: May I just ask ...

ADV DE JAGER: You were pursuing this person, you and Mr Khumalo, is that correct?

MR CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: How far in front of you did he run?

MR CELE: That far, not very far.

ADV DE JAGER: About the distance from me to you?

MR CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And was that - when you got out behind the tree where they were shooting at you, he was about this distance in front of you and he started running when you started shooting, is that right?

MR CELE: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Where was he at the time when you were behind the tree and you were returning the fire?

MR CELE: About as far as that wall.

ADV DE JAGER: Alright, that's about 20 metres, isn't it?

MR CELE: I'm referring to that wall, this wall in front.

ADV DE JAGER: This one?

MR CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So then you start pursuing this man.

MR CELE: Yes, we started pursuing him.

ADV DE JAGER: And he ran.

MR CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And you chased him.

MR CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And you managed to catch up with him near Mr Madlala's house.

MR CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And that's about, you said perhaps four times the length of this wall, from your house where you were standing behind the tree?

MR CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So you were chasing this old man of 79 years for a distance of say 150 yards and you didn't even catch up with him, he managed to get behind a tree and then you shot at him.  Is that what you're telling us?

MR CELE: If you chase after a person at night you will not just go running wildly, you will chase him in such a way that he does not disappear from your sight, but you just don't go running wildly, because you do not know what he's leading you to.

ADV DE JAGER: Could your father run at that stage, wasn't he too old to run, he merely trotted, or could he run?  An old man of 79 years.

MR CELE: He could run.

ADV DE JAGER: And he almost outran you, is that so?

MR CELE: If we had been running a race he would not have outrun us.  As I mentioned before, you just did not go around running wildly because you did not where he was running to.  You were careful.

ADV DE JAGER: And the other people running with him, did they outrun him and they vanished in the darkness, they disappeared in the darkness.

MR CELE: They ran in different directions and they managed to escape.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Did you ever establish the identity of the attackers?  Do you know who attacked you on that night?

MR CELE: No, I did not, because I could not get that information from anyone.

MR MALAN: Now at that stage, that night after you had shot this person hiding in the bush, you knew that you had hit him, that's your evidence.

MR CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Didn't you want to know who the attackers were?  When the others escaped, did you not return to the bush to look for that person that you had shot there?

MR CELE: It would have been difficult to do so, because is was not safe.  If I had returned maybe I could have put myself in danger.