Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-10

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I would submit that what has been testified by the applicant is the truth.  Firstly because having to travel to Duduza, although we don't have evidence as to how long did it take them to exchange the firearms, that is from Zinde to them, how long did it take them to conclude the deal and driving back, but having to be disturbed by the road block and having to turn back, drive to Dawn Park.   Mr Chairman, he further testified that they arrived in Dawn Park where they parked the car and got into discussions as to what was to be done thereafter.
	It is possible Mr Chairman that during their discussions or during the period when they were strategising, the victims arrived and the shooting started.  It's possible Mr Chairman that if the arms were fetched in the afternoon, that is travelling to Duduza and coming back and having to turn back into Dawn Park and park these cars, it's possible Mr Chairman that at the time the incident where the late Mr Thompson died could be the time that is reflected in the records that we have.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, maybe you can help us.  There's a bit of discrepancy about when the firearms were actually fetched.  My recollection is that he did testify that it was in the afternoon and that the parking under the lamp post was insignificant because the light was not on because I think he was asked by my colleague that if you're on this operation, why go park under a light which is, well, it wasn't as if he wanted to be seen, it was in the afternoon.  Am I correct in my recollection?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, yes the question was asked but as I submit Mr Chairman, the time frame between the fetching of the firearms and the parking it's between the afternoon towards the evening even if ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why do I get a feeling that 3 o'clock or so was mentioned?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman with due respect I don't have that in my records, I don't have that in my notes.  No specific time was mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  But he did say that at the time they were there parked the lights were not on because it was still light.  Now October/November in Gauteng, wouldn't the lights be on at half past 7?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, in my knowledge in most suburbs the street lamps are on at about 6 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  Okay.

MR SIBEKO: Be that as it may Mr Chairman, to the applicant and his comrades I would request this forum to view or to approach the whole scenario from this point that an agreement or in fact an order was made that at whatever cost be it the fact that they could have been observed, they could have been seen, to them was not much of a disturbance because at whatever cost they had to take these arms.
	Mr Chairman, it is clear that if the instruction or the order says at whatever cost, if it means killing, then exchange of fire would occur as it has occurred in this particular incident.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I have a difficulty with that timespan because if it was essential to collect and transport these weapons and get it to a safe place, one wonders then why they didn't take another route to their destination instead of park at this lamp post and not take precautions and see to it that they got these firearms to a safe place.  It doesn't ring true that they had the luxury of parking under this lamp post and discussing and doing all sorts of other things when they were in possession of all these firearms in a stolen vehicle nogal which was marked I suppose.  If it was a furniture business, a certain name of the furnitures would have been on there.  The hijacking must have been reported by then I assume and the police would be out looking for it or at least aware that that bakkie if they see it is recorded as being a stolen bakkie.  Now all those kinds of factors will give me singular problems and looked at it globally one must really really start to ask questions and that's why I've asked you to argue those issues.  It's really difficult to assume that whatever happened, especially the killing, could have been done with a political motive when you have all these niggling problems attached to their version.  Do you follow what I'm saying?

MR SIBEKO: I follow Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you can I'd really like you to - I'll appreciate if you can deal with those aspects in an attempt to persuade us that it could fall under the ambit of the Act because there are other options, not options, possibilities as to why these things occurred which are non-political and we are duty bound to consider all aspects.

MR SIBEKO: In an attempt to try to be of assistance Mr Chairman, I would start by saying the route from - in fact the entrance points into Thokoza from the direction of Duduza, it's my submission Mr Chairman, the easiest is through Vosloorus.  Firstly because Vosloorus happens to be a township, from Vosloorus you go through to Kathlehong, from Kathlehong you go into Thokoza.  Other routes from the direction of Duduza to Thokoza will take you through either at Wadeville, Germiston or Alberton where it is clear that more often than not you'll encounter policemen.
	Following thereon Mr Chairman, I'll further submit the nearest suburb from Vosloorus to any direction that is away from Vosloorus is Dawn Park.  Other than ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could they get to their destination through Dawn Park then?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, there is no route from Dawn Park directly into Thokoza except where you use Dawn Park, the back roads into Kathlehong, from Kathlehong ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why wouldn't that have been an option to them?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, the evidence that we have is that they had to stop and see, that is and discuss whether in the event this is not the only roadblock but should we meet any other roadblock on the way, what is to be done?  That is the evidence that we have amongst other things that was discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, the other issue that worries me is that clearly the order was that should we encounter any hurdle we're going to fight it out.  Now the roadblock was a hurdle.  Turn around, go to Dawn Park.  Essentially you say to discuss alternative routes.  Of course the routes through Germiston and all those established towns are out of the question because of the prospects of meeting policemen.  From what you tell me they had only had one other option then, go through Dawn Park through to Thokoza and then come to Vosloosrus through that route.  One must then question why that didn't happen and it follows then that certain other questions must be asked as to what real motive they had in this whole operation.  A stolen bakkie, one would have expect them to do their job as quick as possible and get rid of the bakkie.  They decide to park under a lamp post.  There's four hours, more or less four hours or let's say 5 o'clock they collected, two hours to account for between them collecting the arms and the arrest.  It doesn't make sense.  One must then also question whether we are being told the truth, whether those arms which if we accept and find were collected, were they really being collected for the purpose of self defence units or for some other reason?  Do you follow what I'm getting at?

MR SIBEKO: I follow Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now those are the types of problems we face.