Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And any particular reason why your family was not politically active?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: We did not believe in politics, it's just that if you live in an area that is dominated by a political party, you have to support them to be safe.

MR PANDAY: Now you say that if you live in the area you have to support them, in what way did one support them if you lived in that area?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: For instance, if people come out and they are - there is something going on, I would also follow to see what is going on, I would be with them.

MR PANDAY: And would your brother do the same?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So people from outside would regard you to be a supporter of the IFP because you went with them, if they were going to a meeting you would accompany them?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I can agree with you there.

MR PANDAY: And would you in any way attack any other party or persons on the instructions of the IFP?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: No.

MR PANDAY: Would your brother have done the same?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: He would not have done it either.

MR PANDAY: Do you know if your brother was involved in any attacks?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: He had never been involved in such matters.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Mbukazi.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the defence witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Right, that you.  This has been sprung on you rather quickly, would you like a short adjournment?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, I think it's sufficient for me to proceed at this stage on the basis of what I know of the applicant's version.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.
	Mr Mbukazi, is Princess Bongisiwe Hlongwane your wife or is she your sister-in-law?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: She is my wife.

MR DEHAL: She has made a statement which is on page 18 of the bundle, you're familiar with that statement, aren't you?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I was not present when she made this statement.

MR DEHAL: Has your attorney, Mr Panday, not shown you this statement?  Have you not read it, are you not familiar with its contents?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I do not recall whether he showed it to me.

MR DEHAL: In any case, your wife made a statement to Mr Robson Madladla on the 15th November 1999 and it she says amongst other things - I show this to you, if you can read English you can follow me - sorry, this is the fifth paragraph on page 18
"During 1991 and 1992 there was a fight going on between the ANC and the IFP.  As far as I know, Mfanafuti did not belong to any political organisation."
Do you agree with that paragraph, with that statement?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Did you know that your wife was approached by Mr Madladla, to make a statement?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Were you approached to make a statement?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: No, I've never made any statement.

MR DEHAL: Is your wife present here at these hearings?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, she is.

MR DEHAL: Is she going to be called to testify, do you know?

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, that's not within the knowledge of the witness, that will be determined by myself being the representative.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't the answer simply be "I don't know"?

MR DEHAL: Did you know that during 1991 and 1992 there was this ongoing fight between the ANC and the IFP in the area you lived in?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I did.

MR DEHAL: Would that mean that this fight was going on between the area that the accused - sorry, the appellant lived in and the area that you lived in?  The are you having lived in, being IFP and the adjacent area that the applicant lived in, being ANC.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: The violence that I know of involved people from Mcina and Ehlanzeni districts.  That is just across Umkababa.  These were just criminals who killed my brother when they met him in the company of his girlfriend.

MR DEHAL: Well you don't know that, I don't know how you could say that, you were not there.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that being a bit technical?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Before my brother died, he told us everything.

MR DEHAL: Yes.  If there was a group that arrived from the ANC area into your area, the area that you lived in, and maliciously and violently attacked the IFP people, the attacks by the ANC crowd, would you have just stood aside and watched passively as they fought, or would you have taken sides with the IFP to fight against the ANC?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Well I do not gamble with my life.  If I see that there's a possibility of my death, I would have fled.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, you would have?

CHAIRPERSON: Fled.

MR DEHAL: Fled.  You see, your wife says in the next paragraph
"As the fight was going on all the youth in the area who belonged to the ANC, left their homes and stayed in the ANC area.  All those who stayed at their homes were labelled as belonging to the IFP.  The deceased did not leave our house which was situated in the IFP area.  No member of the ANC was allowed in the IFP area and vice versa."
You agree with that, do you?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I do agree with that.

MR DEHAL: Now you see, your wife then says in the next paragraph ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, with due respect to my learned friend, my colleague is trying to cross-examine the witness on the affidavit of somebody else.  Now if my learned friend would rather put to him a particular question as opposed to leading him on an affidavit that he did not depose to, it would be a bit more convenient for the witness in this matter, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: He's merely asking him if he agrees with something that has been written down.

MR PANDAY: I accept, Mr Chairman, what you're saying, but if my learned friend would refrain from cross-examining, or agreeing on the affidavit that he did not depose to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That is if he starts questioning him as to the wording, that would be grossly unfair because he would say "It's not my affidavit", but so far all he has done is read to him and said "Do you agree with those views?"

MR PANDAY: As Mr Chairman pleases.

MR DEHAL: I anticipate my learned colleague's difficulty arising from the next paragraph, if it be agreed to, and perhaps the objection was timeously ... predicated at that level.

MR PANDAY: I do object to that, Mr Chairman, my learned won't know when I'm going to object or not.

MR DEHAL: Okay.  In the next paragraph your wife says
"I believe that the deceased was killed because he was found in the ANC area while he was residing in the IFP area.  Even though I know that the deceased did not belong to any political organisation, I think that his death was politically motivated."
Do you agree with that paragraph?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you perhaps tell us, where was the deceased killed?  How far from his house?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: It was quite a distance from our home.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct) how far from the applicant's house?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: It was a distance from his house.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And how far from Mr - sorry, I'm looking for the exhibit now.

CHAIRPERSON: Myene.

MR PANDAY: Myene, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja, Mr Myene's house.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I am not in a position to explain because I did not know Mr Myene.

MR DEHAL: Do you - sorry, whilst we're on that point, do you know the Power School in the area?  Or the school known as Power School.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Was your brother killed anywhere in the vicinity of the Power School?