Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

JUDGE MILLER: On both occasions, the one that was thrown into the bungalow and also the one when you were being carried out?

THEMBA POKWANA: Yes, they were both mortar bombs.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.  Sorry, Mr Nodada.

MR NODADA: Thank you.
	Did that one explode, the last one that you have just mentioned?

THEMBA POKWANA: Yes, it exploded and its shrapnel went to the sides of the bungalows, not on our side.

MR NODADA: So nobody was injured as far as you know, as a result of that?

THEMBA POKWANA: I can't remember well because I was on the other side with others that were injured, so I don't know about the people that were in the bungalows because there were a lot of bungalows there.

MR NODADA: You have described these people that you saw outside, those that caused the group that was helping you, as Duli group, did you know that they were Duli group at that time, or you were just confused?

THEMBA POKWANA: Because of the uniform they had it was clear that it was not the soldiers that were working with us, it was clear that they were the attackers.

MR NODADA: Were they dressed in combat uniform, or how were they dressed?

THEMBA POKWANA: Those that I saw were wearing coco-brown, not the Transkeian Defence Force uniform.

MR NODADA: This coco-brown uniform, did you recognise it to be belonging to any military group or liberation army?  How did you understand this coco-brown uniform?

THEMBA POKWANA: It was being used by the SADF.

MR NODADA: So in short you saw people who were dressed in the South African Defence Force uniform?

THEMBA POKWANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Did you recognise anyone of them at that stage?

THEMBA POKWANA: No, I didn't recognise anyone.

MR NODADA: Alright.  Now you saw them going up to the other camps and then, carry on and tell us what you saw.

THEMBA POKWANA: After that as we were being left there and the soldiers ran away after this second bomb had exploded, I noticed some people like Mr Mlandeli, a deceased, and Mr Mzweni, they were already dead.  And after some time the soldiers came back, they took me to the military hospital.

MR NODADA: And did you ever see those soldiers who were dressed in the SADF uniform, after you had seen them going up in the direction you've indicated?

THEMBA POKWANA: No, I didn't see them after that.

MR NODADA: And then you landed in hospital?

THEMBA POKWANA: Yes, I was taken to the hospital.

MR NODADA: And while you were in hospital did you see anything else that apparently was connected with those acts?

THEMBA POKWANA: No, I did not see anything.

MR NODADA: And for how long did you remain in hospital?

THEMBA POKWANA: I remained there in the morning and I was taken at about three and I was transferred to the general hospital here in Umtata.

MR NODADA: On the same day, that is 22 November?

THEMBA POKWANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR NODADA: And when did you first hear that these were soldiers, or these were persons who were aiding Col Duli to overthrow the military council government?

THEMBA POKWANA: As I've already indicated, as we heard those bombs and there was a person who was speaking in a loudspeaker saying that he was Col Duli and he was back.

MR NODADA: Yes, and then after you had been discharged from the hospital, did you go back to the base where you were being trained as a recruit?

THEMBA POKWANA: Yes, I went back to the base where I was being trained.

MR NODADA: Are you now still working as a soldier?

THEMBA POKWANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR NODADA: What is your rank now?

THEMBA POKWANA: I'm a Corporal.

MR NODADA: Where are you based now?

THEMBA POKWANA: At Ncise, 14 ...(indistinct).

MR NODADA: Right.  Did you get any compensation for the injuries that you sustained?

THEMBA POKWANA: No, I didn't get any compensation.

MR NODADA: I've no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Nodada, just while you're on that point, I don't know if you've done it already but it would be appreciated if you could give a list of the victims that you are representing to Mr Mapoma.

MR NODADA: I'll do that.

JUDGE MILLER: Because we as a Committee, in the event of any amnesty being granted or in the event of a gross violation, are bound to refer the victims through to the Committee on Reparations and Rehabilitation and having a list also enabling that Committee to be able to track down and trace the victims would be appreciated.

MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA

CHAIRPERSON: You're through?

MR NODADA: I'm through.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Just before we go to you, Mr Malan, can I just ask the members of the public not to read their magazines and their newspapers in the venue please.  We are busy with serious matters here and it's inappropriate.  If you're not interested in the proceedings, it's inappropriate to come here to sit and read your magazines, obviously not interested in what is going on.  So please let's get your cooperation in that regard.
	Yes, Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: I've got no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: From the Panel?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just very briefly.
	Mr Pokwana, do you know how many people died in that attack on the base at Ncise? - that morning.

THEMBA POKWANA: The people that I saw that morning that died were four.

JUDGE MILLER: And you say they were mortar bombs, the first one that came into the bungalow, did it come through the roof or the wall or through the door?  How did it get into the bungalow?

THEMBA POKWANA: Through the roof.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any indication as to how many people got injured in the attack?  Four died.

THEMBA POKWANA: If I still remember well, I think it was 33 who got injured.

CHAIRPERSON: And four died?

THEMBA POKWANA: Those that I can still remember were four.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Nodada, any re-examination?

MR NODADA: I've no re-examination, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA

CHAIRPERSON: I will now proceed and call the second victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you Mr Pokwana, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: What are his names, Mr Nodada?

MR NODADA: He's Zolo Nodeta.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give the surname again.

MR NODADA: Nombida, N-o-m-b-i-d-a.

CHAIRPERSON: Nombida.  Thank you.
	Mr Nombida, just indicate to us if your headset is working, if you can hear the interpreters.

ZOLA NOMBIDA: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand to take the oath.  Are your names Zola Nombida.

ZOLA NOMBIDA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down.  Yes, Mr Nodada.

MR NODADA: Zola, what are you doing for a living now?

ZOLA NOMBIDA: I'm a soldier, Air Force in Pretoria.

MR NODADA: And were you a member of the Transkei Defence Force in 1990?

ZOLA NOMBIDA: Yes, I was a member of the Transkei Defence Force in 1990, I was a recruit.

MR NODADA: Were you in the same group as the last witness, Mr Pokwana?

ZOLA NOMBIDA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Were you in the same camp on the night or early morning of the 22nd of November 1990?

ZOLA NOMBIDA: Yes, I was in the same camp, we were in the same bungalow with Mr Pokwana.

MR NODADA: Yes.  What happened as far as you can remember?

ZOLA NOMBIDA: In the morning, 22nd November 1990, round about 3 o'clock, early in the morning we heard gunshots outside and immediately after that we put the lights on and then we dressed up.

MR NODADA: Did you all wake up?

ZOLA NOMBIDA: Not all of us at the same time, some of use woke up and then some were dressing up because that was a big bungalow, there was more than 80 of us, but most of us had already woken up at the time.

MR NODADA: Yes, you woke after hearing gunfires outside, and then what happened?