Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

RUSSELL ALLY: Now after this incident you say that a black woman by the name of Johannah who was also employed at the supermarket offered you accommodation.  Now this Johannah that you are speaking about, is this Johannah Skhosana?  Are you absolutely sure about this because if you, Mrs Skhosana in her evidence before you actually said that she had no link and never worked.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Could you just repeat the question nicely please?

RUSSELL ALLY: You say that as a result of this attack you were then offered accommodation at the home of a Johannah.  Who was this Johannah?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: We left Einel and went to Johannah's place and we were told that they found Johannah and she had a place.  So that was when we went to her, but JB knew that we were going to stay at Johannah's place because that is what they told us at the shop.  Yes, this is the same Johannah.

RUSSELL ALLY: And she was employed by, are you saying that she was an employee of Mr Shabangu, that she worked at his supermarket?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No, she was not working there.

RUSSELL ALLY: The reason that you went to Johanna's house, can you actually, if she was not employed, as you say, by Mr Shabangu, why was it her house that was chosen as a house for you to go and stay in?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Because the people that knew her, that were living with her at B1, we all lived in Mamelodi and they knew her.  So they knew her and they said that we should go to Johannah's.  I mean somebody that knows you would not desert you.
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RUSSELL ALLY: Was this because of the family connection and because of her brother as well?  Was that the reason that you went to her place because she knew about the family in Mamelodi and because her brother was, because you knew her brother as well?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: They did not know me.  They knew Bung and Victor and company.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now on the night of the actual shooting you had decided to go and sleep at a girlfriend's place and that is why you were not in the house at the time.  That is correct?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, Mrs Skhosana in her evidence said that the people who did the shooting wore camouflage uniforms and they had balaclavas over their faces.  Were you able from where you were, where you had slept that night, were you able to actually see who the attackers were?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I heard the gunshots and that is when I woke up because there were several gunshots and it was not far from Johanna's place.  I was number three and Johannah's place was approximately from where I am sitting to where this lady is sitting.  My girlfriend's place was where, the distance from where I am sitting up to and Johanna's house was where the lady is sitting across from me.  So when we heard the gunshots, when we heard the gunshots the first time and the second time we jumped up and ...

RUSSELL ALLY: So you are sure these were police vehicles.  This was a Hippo that the attackers were firing from.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now this incident took place about one o' clock in the morning and you say that at about five o' clock that same morning you eventually went to the house where this
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shooting took place and you found, you say I found my friends in a pool of blood, they were already dead.  Some were badly burnt and it was difficult to identify them.  This was because the bodies were quite badly burnt.  Now were the bodies burnt beyond recognition that people could not actually identify the bodies?  You knew all these people, I assume.  Could you identify any of them?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes, you could see the others, but you could not really see the others because they were so badly burnt, but, I mean, you could see, I recognised some of the others as people that we stayed with.

RUSSELL ALLY: So some you could recognise and some you could not recognise?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now I just want to ask you about some other youth who also went missing more or less the same time and we have statements from mothers and other family members.  Now, the first person, Matthews Lerutla, was he one of those who was with you, who left with you from Mamelodi?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: We called each other on, we knew each other by our nicknames.  So, I mean, if you are going to name him on his full names because, I mean, at the time I also had a nickname by Corrie van Zinzo, but, I mean, I was not known as Victor so some of us do not know each other by our real names, but rather by our nicknames.  So if you could maybe give me another name I might be able to answer you a bit better.

RUSSELL ALLY: No, that is the only name.  So you do not know Matthews.  You do not know that name Matthews Lerutla?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I do not know this name, but maybe I recognise a nickname.
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RUSSELL ALLY: Okay.  Samuel Masemela, Masemela.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Masilela.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes I know him.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was he part of the group that left and was he in the room that evening?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: The, he was with the group that left that I still gave petrol to.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was he one of the bodies that you recognised in the room that morning?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Excuse me.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was he one of the bodies?  Did you recognise him in the room that morning?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: I would just like to explain to you.  I gave Samuel and them petrol on Thursday for the Friday and they left because they were part of the group.  So our group remained behind two combis left for KwaNdebele.  The one group left, we do not know if they survived or if they are dead.  So I would like to make that kind of differentiation that we gave the one group petrol and they left in a Honda Ballade.

RUSSELL ALLY: So Samuel was in the second group?  He was not in that first group?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: He was in the first group that left.

RUSSELL ALLY: Bonginkosi Samuel Ledwaba, that name does it, Bonginkosi, does it mean anything to you?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: You know, I have got a problem with these names because we use to call each other by nicknames.

RUSSELL ALLY: His nickname was Semizintos.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Semizintos.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes.
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JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: That is right, Semizintos.  Was he, in which group was he in?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: He was in the first group that left.

RUSSELL ALLY: So you did not see him after that group left?  Was that the last time that you saw him when you ...

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: They escaped and they got away.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was this the group that was supposed to be crossing the border that was going to be going to, was going to cross the border?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes, I mean that they left the country.  We gave them petrol and they left.

RUSSELL ALLY: And you have never heard from him since or about him?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No, I have not heard from them.  There are people that do know about them that are still, that know about their whereabouts.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just a, four more names.  Rakoshos Makena.  Rakoshos Makena.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No, once again I have got the problem with the formal names.  If it was a nickname it would be better.

RUSSELL ALLY: That is fine.  Morris Nkabinde.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No.

RUSSELL ALLY: No.  That is okay, if you do not know, it is fine.  It is just that these are in statements of people ...

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Alright.

RUSSELL ALLY: ... whose children went missing round about the same time.  Jeremiah Ntuli?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Jeremiah.

RUSSELL ALLY: Okay and then the last one Philip Sinyoni.