Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I can't remember whether I - I recall that I got the firearm from Sgt Gold at some or other stage, perhaps just before, perhaps at that point.  It was a hand machine carbine with a silencer and this was handed by me to Des Carr.  I don't remember that we said anything.  I can't remember anything being said.  Mr Des Carr went and kneeled about a metre or two away from the deceased and shot him.  At that point I was about 5 metres behind him and Sgt Gold, I don't know where he was at that point.  Sgt Carr pulled the trigger, after which the deceased jumped upright suddenly.  I can't remember whether Sgt Carr jumped out of way, but the deceased charged in my direction.  I took my pistol from the holster and shot him through the head.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember how many shots?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I cannot remember, Mr Chair.

MR BOOYENS: So the deceased died there, probably died there?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did you and Mr Carr and Mr Sgt Gold then cover the corpse of the deceased in a piece of canvass?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.  Sgt Gold then got to the scene and we took a piece of canvass that Sgt Carr provided.  We took it out.  We rolled him up in that.  We placed him in the back of the Landrover.  Sgt Des Carr's Landrover.  The blood we covered with sand.  I think that's how it happened.

MR BOOYENS: And did you then drive off to the water side?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, to the point where Col Visser and Mr Schoon were waiting with the boat.

MR BOOYENS: Did Mr Gold take you, follow you in his own car?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's the way I remember it, yes.

MR BOOYENS: Were you all with the body and the explosives then on the boat?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Then you went to the island?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And at the island the corpse was unloaded?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you took it to the middle of the island?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's right.

MR BOOYENS: You and Mr Gold packed explosives around.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I recall that we put it on top of the body.

MR BOOYENS: At that point you were, you had not done your explosives course, is that right?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: The explosives were then detonated, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You say in paragraph 6 on page 70 that you recall that there was then a second explosion because he had not been totally destroyed.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's the way I remember it.  Apparently I'm the only one who remembers it this way.  That remains to be my memory, that we had a second load of explosives but it is a long time ago and I remember very vaguely.

MR BOOYENS: So you have now already referred, Mr Gold says there was only one explosion.  Some of the other members also say that they heard only one explosion, saw only one explosion.  Is it possible?  You say that you recall two explosions.  What are you trying to tell us with your statement that it's a long time ago?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: When I made the statement, I had not read any of the other statements.  I tried to write it as through the years I could remember it.  Even now when I think back, it seems to me as if there were two explosions, but I must admit that when I read Sgt Gold's statement, as well as some of the others, of course I began doubting myself.  It is something that I really cannot remember above other things.  I can remember that it was me who shot the person and not someone else, and more or less what the circumstances were when that happened, but the destruction of the corpse is a very more vague image to me and it is something that I really don't want to remember.

MR BOOYENS: Is my inference correct that it is possible that the second explosion might be a mistake on your part, although you personally remember two explosions?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that is possible.

MR BOOYENS: Then after that, in any case after the explosion, the body had been totally destroyed and then you left the island?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you went back, you and Col Visser went back to Jo'burg, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: This situation regarding - no sorry we did that already.  Mr van Zyl, you have already touched upon the fact that you, at that point, were a very loyal Security Force member and that you trusted Col Visser and when they told you that there were instructions from Head Office, a request that you must help him with this assignment and he told you, he explained to you that this person was a double agent, did you regard this as a necessary part of the struggle at the time?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I don't know, Mr Chair, it was the first time that I partook in such an incident and it has always been against my principles and yet I felt that it was the only way under certain circumstances and that at that stage I felt that it was warranted, justified.

MR BOOYENS: Your broader political purposes, objectives you spoke about on page 71 and 72, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And do you corroborate these, as you wrote it?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, I do.

MR BOOYENS: I would like to refer you to page 72 at the top, paragraph (b) where you say that the target had been a trained terrorist who'd been sent out of the country to commit acts of terrorism and that he had to be prevented from carrying on with this.  Is that based on the fact that the information given to you, this is based on information given to you, not information that you yourself gathered, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: It's also based on the fact that he had training to commit acts of terrorism, not necessarily implies that he had at that stage committed such acts already.  You refer specifically to the fact that he could continue with acts of terrorism as if that implies, yes, that he had already committed acts of terrorism, but that's not what you wanted to say, you wanted to say that if he went back to the opposition he could have continued with his initial purpose, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's more correct.

MR BOOYENS: What was said to you was an instruction that the man had to be killed and were you also satisfied that under the circumstances or on the information that was given to you, that this was the only option?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Although it was not your decision, this way or the other?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: So you did not take the decision, that decision was taken for you?  You were appropriated operationally?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, it is correct, but I take full responsibility for what I did.

MR BOOYENS: So you confirm your amnesty application and do you ask for amnesty for your share of the murder of the person you knew as Scorpion, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's correct, Mr Chair.

MR BOOYENS: Also for any other misdemeanour regarding explosives that may have related thereto?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR BOOYENS: As well as any other misdemeanours in connection with the destruction of the corpse related to that matter?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chair, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Mr van Zyl, you say it was you who contacted Mr Gold by telephone?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: So in other words, it was directly as a result ...(end of tape) to him a junior officer, that he must assist in this operation.  Would you agree that this was an order?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's affirmative.

MR WILLS: So in other words, he had no choice in the matter, if he was to obey his orders?