Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GEORGE BIZOS: That can't be right sir, because your politicians shouted from the rooftops that detainees were well treated, they were not assaulted.  Is that correct, do you recall that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: That we had inquest courts where we would hear the truth from the worthy policemen that gave evidence before them, who would dispel the propaganda that the leftists and their lawyers put out, do you remember that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You knew all those things that your Minister was saying, to be false if your evidence is correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that, you didn't - you couldn't accept that you were doing this on their instructions or on their behalf?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I believed it then, I was protected by them and I believed that a person could do it in that manner as long as you did not embarrass them.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you know that can't be right if a portion of your evidence this morning, is correct.
	You were asked this morning by one of the members of the Committee whether you told your colleagues that you had assaulted Mr Jones, do you recall that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you said no.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you were asked why not and your answer was, I would never tell a senior officer that I had assaulted somebody.  Do you recall saying that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Doesn't that indicate if your answer was true, that you were not authorised by your senior officers to assault Mr Jones, or for that matter, anyone else?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.  No senior gave an instruction that it should be done, but it is methods that was used to gather this information.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Niewoudt, I am confused now.  Your evidence this morning was that you must do what was necessary and this included illegal?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely your government had to know of this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: They were not there on the platform or the revolutionary organisation did not propagate violence in public meetings.
	It was seldom the case with the government.

CHAIRPERSON: It does not fit in with your answer that those who were senior in rank to you, that you wouldn't have told them that you assaulted someone with a hosepipe, it does not make sense.  Why would you not tell them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I do not recall this particular incident that I did, but I don't think that I did.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said that you never told anyone?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is how I remember Mr Chairperson.  It is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: The similar matter, you know you and your colleagues say in your applications that you were influenced by your church.  Did any minister or any elder or any member of the church council ever tell you that it was expected of you to defend your country by assaulting helpless detainees and you would defend your country be committing perjury?  Did any religious leader tell you that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever discuss the interpretation of this statement from McEwan that you make so much of in your written application?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that was a psychological war.  The definition of psychological war Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  It doesn't talk about psychological war, he was talking about revolutionary war.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, but it was part of psychological warfare.

GEORGE BIZOS: What I want to ask you is, did you discuss the interpretation of this passage with anyone of your superiors?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was put to us during lectures and where we received training during my police and there had to be discussion with each other that we had to discuss this.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you discuss with anyone of a higher rank than yourself, that this was an injunction, a direction, advise for you to use assault and perjury in order to defend your country?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I can't recall that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you aware of standing order number 316 (18)?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: If I can recall this was the handling of detainees.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, it doesn't - well, it is not specific to a detainee, but let me read it to you.  You should perhaps have known it off by heart if you wanted to be a good policeman and not a torturer.
	As a rule there should be no necessity for the use of force, and in any case only such force as is absolutely necessary to overcome resistance to the arrest, shall be used.  No justification whatsoever exists for beating, kicking or otherwise ill-treating a person in custody.  There is no excuse whatsoever for a member to act in this manner.
	Any member found guilty of such conduct must expect to be severely dealt with.  Was this order not applicable to the Security Police in Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so, that is a regulation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Is that why you wouldn't tell a senior officer that you had assaulted Mr Jones?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is possible, but I did not mention it.  Nobody asked me about this, and I didn't do it.  I cannot recall it, I don't believe that I was covering this up, because Siebert would have noticed it, and he would have confronted me.

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't understand what you mean.  You say Siebert would have noticed and he would have confronted you - about what?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: If he observed this, or had seen it.  In the same regulation I referred to that I went over my limits of force and that is why I hit Mr Biko with a garden hose.  If I think about it now.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you think that if you had told any of your superiors that you had beaten up Mr Jones with a hosepipe, that you may have been either criminally or departmentally charged?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't believe so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I believe they would have given me the necessary protection.

GEORGE BIZOS: They would have lied for you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: They would have lied for you even if you did it to someone who was charged with theft?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I don't believe so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why not?  If they were prepared to lie for you in one respect, why wouldn't they have been prepared to lie for you in another?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: You are speaking of several branchings.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I am speaking of security.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us return to the morning on which Mr Biko was injured that led to his death.
	What was your and your colleagues' function, in relation to Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was to interrogate him, and to get information from him, and charge him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any urgency about this interrogation and the rate of its progress?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, there was because there was pressure from the higher levels at that stage to as quickly as possible, to neutralise the unrest situation.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your interrogation directed at, what criminal charge were you intending?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It could have been sabotage and subversion and terrorism.  That is put very broadly.

GEORGE BIZOS: You say that it was a matter of urgency and I assume that you are going to tell us that you had orders to get on with it and get some results?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you know, you must be careful to try, at least try to tell the truth.  For how many days after his arrest, was Mr Biko allowed to stay in a cell alone without a single question being asked of him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was for a long time, because the other detainees had to give information first.