Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MR DA SILVA: Now in regard to the people that visited you or spoke to you at the gate after the attack, I understood your evidence to be in the early cross-examination by Mr Berger, that you spoke to Mr Paul Schneider hours after the attack, that was what you testified, is that your recollection?  Are you able to give an estimate of how long after the attack you spoke to Mr Schneider?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know when the attack took place?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I do not know.

MR DA SILVA: Are you able to estimate at all when you spoke to Mr Schneider what time it was?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I did mention that I had a watch Mr da Silva but when I was woken up I did not check the time.

MR DA SILVA: So you're not able to say what time you spoke to Mr Schneider?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: How long after you spoke to Mr Schneider did you speak to the member of the Vaal Commando?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It was after a long time.  I think it was more than an hour.

MR DA SILVA: Now you were asked a question what was the conversation that took between yourself and this person from the Vaal Commando and you started explaining about grass on the road.  Could you explain what was the conversation that took place between yourself and this member from the Vaal Commando?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Those were the instructions that came through Iscor Security that there were people who were seen crossing the road, Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, who were attackers who were coming to Kwamadala Hostel and then I was given a message, I was instructed to sit there and stay there and I was waiting for him to come and tell me what would happen thereafter and after that he told us not to move there, they said everything was in their hands and they knew that there was only one entrance from Kwamadala Hostel.  There were other cars that he pointed that were next to the railway line because one of the Iscor bakkies was there already.  He mentioned also that they were looking for a lamp because it looked like these people were there lying on the lawn and they wanted to get a lamp so that they could easily see those people.

MR DA SILVA: So are you saying that the member of the Vaal Commando told you that he was looking for a lamp because he suspected the people were hiding in the grass, is that what your answer is?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is what I was told.

MR DA SILVA: Now the person that you spoke to who you assumed to be a member of the Vaal Commando, how was he dressed?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I cannot describe, my mind was not stable, my mind was thinking fast at the time.

MR DA SILVA: Are you not able to describe this man's clothes at all?  Was he wearing shorts, was he wearing a t-shirt?  What was he wearing?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It was winter and it was cold, I did not see this t-shirt, I apologise for the fact that I cannot describe his clothing because I was shocked at the time because I was told to stay there because the attackers were coming.

MR DA SILVA: So you can't even describe the colour of this man's clothes, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva, he has repeatedly told us he is not in a position to tell us what clothing.  Let's move on please.

MR DA SILVA: As the Chairman pleases.
	You can't describe whether this person is an officer or a non-commissioned officer can you?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I did not notice his rank, I do not know.

MR DA SILVA: Isn't it possible that you spoke to somebody else but not a member of the Vaal Commando?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Unfortunately, all I'm saying is what I heard, he told me that he was working for the Vaal Commando.  I am not saying things out of my mind.

MR DA SILVA: My instructions are that there were members of the Vaal Commando after the attack at the Kwamadala main gate but that they spoke to nobody and there was nobody in sight.  Do you have any comment in that regard?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Will you please repeat your question?

MR DA SILVA: I'm saying to you that my instructions are that after the attack there were members of the Vaal Commando at the Kwamadala main gate, there was nobody in sight and they spoke to nobody so I'm saying to you that you're mistaken, you did not speak to a member of the Vaal Commando?

CHAIRPERSON: Or when the person said to him he was from the Commando he was not telling the truth?
	Did you understand the question?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your answer?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: My answer is what Mr da Silva is saying is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're basing that on what this person told you, that you spoke to?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: Just two questions Mr Chairman.
	Can you clarify that no record of the refugees who were living at the hostel were ever presented to Iscor, was that your evidence that we heard in cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: He did not say that, he said he showed them the register.

MS TANZER: As I understood it Mr Chairman the record of the refugees were not shown.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you keep a register of the refugees?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make that register available to Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I used to have it all the time if I'm going to the meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you make it available to them?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MS TANZER: So in effect they would have these records today?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I'm not sure as to their procedure but I did my work, I did my job.

MS TANZER: Now also the amount of refugees you said they - or people, they were living in the hostel by June 1992.  You mentioned in examination it was about 300 then in cross-examination it went to an excess of 1000?

CHAIRPERSON: No, those were the sum total of people who resided at the hostel.
	The 1000 that you've mentioned was it the refugees only?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: All the people who were residing at Kwamadala Hostel, that was a number of all the people.

MS TANZER: And after the attack on Boipatong was there no instructions by Iscor to clamp down on the refugees that you allowed to live in the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: They requested many times that all the people who were not working for the Iscor should vacate and get another place to stay because Iscor was communicating with the government that Iscor should have their own burden and the government should take care of it's own burden.

MS TANZER: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibonyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu at what stage or during which year did you start keeping record of the people staying at Kwamadala Hostel, I'm asking you that question because according to Khanyile's testimony, people just invaded the hostel without any permission.  Do you understand my question?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I understand your question sir.  I started working as a housing officer in 1991 and I started working like that, that is why Mr Khanyile has his own view because there's a lot of us, there's office secretary and the men responsible for the gates and the other person and myself.

MR SIBANYONI: Now you said Nosenga told you that he was sent by the ANC to plant bombs in the hostel.  Did he just say that or did you in fact see those bombs?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I did not see the bombs.  Nosenga as a person who was speaking Sotho and looked hungry.  There were lots of things that you would notice in him, I sent him to a group with people who were more like him, the youth and the people who would stay there with him and they would discuss.  I did not have time to look after the refugees, I had a job as a housing officer as I was earning my salary.