Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

UNKNOWN: (Sworn states)

BONGANI FINCA: We welcome you Mr Leleki, we thank you for coming before the Commission.  I'll hand over to Nziki Sandi who will lead you in evidence on behalf of the panel.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Leleki according to your statement you are going to speak about your being attacked in East London being accused of being an informer.  Lets not go into detail about particular incidents before you were attacked when you almost lost you life being kicked and beaten with weapons.  Who was attacking you?

UNKNOWN: Joe Jordan.

MR SANDI: Did you know him prior to this?

UNKNOWN: I just knew him for a short while.

MR SANDI: Please tell us how you got to know each other and how you met.

UNKNOWN: I'd gone to look for a place to stay and as he was hoping other Comrades with accommodation ... so he'd just arrived from exile.

MR SANDI: You received training as an Unkonto Wezizwe soldier is that so?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR SANDI: You came back and found out that Jordan was helping with accommodation, could you elaborate please.

UNKNOWN: Before I got to know Joe Jordan I had a problem with accommodation I could not stay at home because I'd just skipped bail.  Our home was full and there was a shebeen so I had to find accommodation outside my home and my neighbour said Comrade Jordan was there to help so I asked him to accompany me.  We did not find him the first day so we went on another day and we were told that he had gone to a match.  On the third day we got him and I introduced myself and he introduced himself.  He told me that I'd come to the right person there were houses for - homes and exiles.  He said that they had taken some people out of houses that were going to be provided for exiles that had returned home.

MR SANDI: What organisation did he belong to?

UNKNOWN: I didn't ask him.

MR SANDI: Please continue.

UNKNOWN: We didn't get to a stage where he stipulated when we could move into these houses so I said that I'd come again but I had a financial problem at the time.  I would go to the DTC to get a small grant.  I had to go to town to do a quotation.  We made our quotation but we were told that it was too much money.

MR SANDI: What you're saying is not clear, are you talking about the ANCCR  in King William's Town that looked after exiles who had come back home?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  We went and there was just not enough money.  We would get temporary jobs in town now and again.  It was difficult to get this accommodation from Joe.  I went with the one Comrade from the Transkei to Johannesburg even there we didn't find accommodation so we came back after that.
 In April 1993 I went to Joe again when I got there, there were a lot of other people that I did not know.  It was on a Saturday afternoon and when I got inside the house there were ladies in the lounge and I told them that I was looking for Joe.  Joe said that it had been a long time since he last saw me and I asked him how far he'd got with looking for accommodation.  I said that there was accommodation elsewhere that I might take.  It was about four o'clock in the afternoon and he said that I must come back at about eleven p.m. so I left.  
 After I'd walked about two hundred metres from his house I thought that it would be too late at night and where I was going to wait I wasn't sure if I'd find anyone.  I went back to his house and when I got there I told him the appointment at eleven p.m. was going to take too long.  He took out a gun.

MR SANDI: He took out a gun?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he pointed this gun at me and I thought he was just playing around but he said I must lift up my hands which I did.  He searched me.  Three men... (interrupted)

MR SANDI: Did he find anything in your pockets?

UNKNOWN: No, I did not even have a knife.  They took me outside.  There was a car parked there and they pushed me together with the other two men and said I must be put in the boot of the car.   I asked why and refused.

MR SANDI: These men were helping Joe?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR SANDI: Where were they from?

UNKNOWN: They were with him.  After that I said I would not get into the boot but I'd get into the car so I got into the car and there were two men sitting on either side of my.  The driver started the car and he drove off.  He drove up Douglas Smith Street.  When we reached the sea area he said that he must drive down Gombo and they parked next to the house and went inside.  I was left with the driver inside the car and he asked me what was going on, I said I don't know.   I asked him for a cigarette, I remember he smoked Courtleigh.  I smoked and they came back but I didn't know what was going on.  Joe came back and told the driver to drive off.  We drove up Douglas Smith back to Mdantsane.  As he was coming towards Mdantsane he said that we must go under the bridge at Senate Park and Joe ordered the driver to park the car at the side.  The doors were opened and I felt a stab on my back then another wound at the back of my neck and I could not walk.  They dragged me towards the bushes and put me on my back.  They stabbed me twice on my chest.

MR SANDI: What were they hitting you with.

UNKNOWN: They hit me with a baton twice on my chest but they did not stab me.  I stayed there the whole night.  It was a Saturday.  The following morning at about  between eight and nine a man who stayed in Senate Park saw me and asked what was going on.  I told him that it was Joe who did this to me and I asked him to call an ambulance.  I tried to crawl but it was too difficult.  This man was standing next to me and he saw another Comrade coming.

MR SANDI: Do you know his name?

UNKNOWN: No but I can remember his structure.  He asked me if I knew who the perpetrators were.  I said no, I only knew Joe.  He asked whether Joe and Tetena were the same person and I said I don't know.  He said he would not call an ambulance but he would go directly to Joe's place.  I think he was driving a bakkie.  He said he would force them to come and fetch me.  I asked him to call an ambulance because I had internal bleeding and I was feeling cold.  An ambulance came and I went to hospital.  I stayed in hospital for about a week.  At the week-end I requested to leave the hospital.  This is the day that Comrade Chris passed away.

MR SANDI: Chris who?

UNKNOWN: Chris Hani.  I got out of hospital on the day that he was buried.  I came back to the township.  After that ... (interrupted)

MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr Leleki what did the doctor diagnose?

UNKNOWN: They stabbed me towards my spine.  My whole right side was not functioning.  I could not stand.  They would prick me with needles and I couldn't feel anything.  I couldn't even urinate after that.

MR SANDI: I asked who were you talking to.

UNKNOWN: I was talking to myself that I was going to the office to report what these people had done to me these people who were referred to as Comrades.

MR SANDI: Which office?

UNKNOWN: The ANC offices.  I went and reported this matter but personally I cannot say that Joe should be arrested he must say where he got the information from that I worked together with the police.  Joe came and Admiral and we talked about this matter.  I told Joe that I wasn't going to do anything to Joe because I did not know anything about him he was just supposed to get accommodation for me.  I told him that his responsibility was to pay my bill at the hospital.  He must have paid because I never received letters which I otherwise would have received from the hospital.  After that nothing ever happened.  We continued with the integration process.

MR SANDI: When you met with Joe at the offices did he give evidence as to why he said that you were an informer?  Were the others not there?

UNKNOWN: No, he didn't give any clear evidence and he couldn't even answer questions which I put forward.