Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say the AWB was successful in the prevention that the ANC and therefore communism govern the country, then your reason for a Volkstaat would fall away?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes, then it wouldn't be necessary for me to go and live in a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's how I understood it.  The two do not go hand in hand, that's what I do not understand.  Either you've got the one or you've got the other, you couldn't have fought for both of them?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I do not understand. Sorry, I do not understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way.  You said yourself - if the ANC did not take over the country, then you would have been satisfied?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you yourself would not have wanted to obtain a Volkstaat?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If the ANC did take over together with communism then you wanted a Volkstaat to get away from the communism?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But if there wasn't any communism around, then there also would not have been a Volkstaat?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: If I can answer it in a different manner, I believe that the communists in the ANC government at the moment they are busy with a lot of legislature which would take the farmers right to water.  There are many communist inspired legislature which they are going to implement and which would make the life of the Afrikaner Boer or the actual farmer very difficult and that's why I'd say we'd rather want our Volkstaat rather than having to live under communism.

CHAIRPERSON: Am I correct then that your anti-communist attitude that you hold has got nothing to do with the matter -you only wanted a Volkstaat?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I'd say it's definitely got to do with it.

MR BRACHER: Have you got your application in front of you, Annexure A?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BRACHER: Now look at paragraph 3 - "After I left the army, I became more and more interested in politics" can you see that?  Now presumably you're not going to try and tell us that you didn't know in March that General Viljoen had pulled out of the alliance and was now entering the election?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I knew that he registered himself for the election, yes I did know that.  I did not think that the plans which they put there in the first place, that he forgot these plans.

MR BRACHER: But you've no reason to believe otherwise?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: There were certain instructions given in which it was said that we together with the Volksfront - let's call it we'll fight together for a Boerestaat and as far as I know Mr Viljoen did not withdraw from those plans.

MR BRACHER: ..[inaudible] obviously had.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: He did register himself for the election but as far as I know, he did not withdraw from those plans.

CHAIRPERSON: This is what's confusing me, Mr Du Plessis.  We know that the AWB was opposed against the elections itself.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And those who took part in the elections were considered to be traitors, is that not true?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: In a way, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's not only in a way or to a certain extent, either you're going to take part in the elections or you're not, is that not so and if you did take part in the election then you betrayed.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: At that stage I did not exactly see it in that way, Chairperson, I thought that maybe Viljoen had a different agenda.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get this idea from that maybe this man Viljoen was a double agent?  Where did you get the idea from?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, that idea if I can just run ahead a bit here, all over the country, in almost every town, there were people of the Volksfront and the B.K.A. and they, the leaders of the Volksfront, for example Viljoen, these people were given certain instructions that let's say certain orders were given, those towns had to be taken over - the Commandos and the police stations etc.  At that stage I thought it might end up in a coup and those orders were never withdrawn.  All that happened was that General Viljoen registered for the elections but those orders were never withdrawn and I was never pertinently told that, that those instructions were taken back or that those plans were not going to realise.

MR BRACHER: Mr Du Plessis, look at your words in the end of paragraph 5:  "I was also at meetings where General Constand Viljoen and Ferdi Hartzenberg told the people that there would be no negotiations but that war would be waged."  Now, by the time you performed these terrible acts, that was history because he was negotiating, he was negotiating for a Volkstaat, he was appearing on public platforms as a candidate, he was on the ballot paper, he was in the press as a person who was negotiating, not fighting a war and you had no reason to believe anything different.  You had no facts upon which to believe anything different.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: The facts, before the election now which we looked at, at that point was that these promises were made to us.

MR BRACHER: He changed his mind obviously?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Before the election or before these events they never told us that the promises are no longer there.

MR BRACHER: He did - he said "I'm going into the election."

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I did not know about it.  I knew that he registered for the election.

UNKNOWN: Again I think you misheard him Mr Bracher.  He said that they weren't told in the AWB and you said "or by the AWB".  "They did not tell 'us' they were suspended" and you said he said that he's referring to Constand Viljoen.  So whoever was giving the instructions or passing information through there, there's a mismatch and your understanding of who you're referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, did you know that Constand Viljoen wanted a seat in the Cape's Parliament and that's why he was taking part in the election?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I knew he registered for the elections and he registered a political party, I did not know what his agenda was - I still thought that all the other plans which were made would still continue being carried out.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, what made you think that?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Neither him nor any other person of the AWB gave the instruction that those plans are being suspended.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you not think by yourself, we now withdraw - he want to go into parliament - why must everything happen through instructions?  Couldn't you think for yourself?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: At that stage I did not think of it, no.

ADV GCABASHE: So essentially, what you are saying is if the NP had granted you a Volkstaat on the morning of the 25th April because your actions followed that, you wouldn't have known about it - you would have continued with your plans because you had been instructed to do particular things and you would therefore not have done anything about it?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: If the National Party in that morning did give us a Volkstaat, I believe that some of the Generals and Staff or Mr Eugene Terreblanche would convey the message that we do not continue with the instructions that were given to us.

ADV GCABASHE: This is the point - had they not communicated that to you, you would have continued with the bombing of Germiston and Jan Smuts Airport?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: You weren't allowed to use your heads in the organisation to reason and say logically this is what should happen?