Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

BISHOP STOREY: All right.  On the Thursday I had consultations with my own Presiding Bishop and the Executive Secretary of my church about the meeting suggested that we would, we were going to have with the Crisis Team and Mrs Mandela, and they suggested we should go ahead with the meeting, provided that I go in accompanied by other representatives of my own church.  And at eight o' clock on that Thursday I met with Beyers Naude, who said there's been a change in plans.  Now he said Winnie and Naidoo are insisting on meeting the Crisis Committee without Storey first.  This meeting was set for noon.  I indicated that the Crisis Committee should come to his office.  I indicated the Crisis Committee should come to my office immediately after that meeting if it took place at all.  I wasn't optimistic.
 There was a meeting, I believe, at that time, somewhere that day between Beyers Naude, Sister Ncube, Winnie and Zinzi Mandela.  At two thirty, the Crisis Committee, consisting of Beyers Naude, Aubrey Mokoena, Sister Ncube and Sidney Mufamadi arrived, together with Krish Naidoo, and I was accompanied by the Reverend Austin Massey and, I think, the Revered Otto Mbangula.  I asked why Mr Naidoo was there.  They were in my office.  I didn't believe that Mr Naidoo belonged in the Crisis Committee.  I, frankly, was suspicious of his role in the matter, and he said "I'm a go-between, I'm not acting for Mrs Mandela".  
 Dominee Naude reported that they had met with Mrs Mandela earlier, and indicated one, "If possible, we would like to see to it that misunderstandings are removed and to move forward in unity for the sake of the community, the church, the Mandela family, and Paul".  They had conveyed to her the outcome of Crisis Committee investigations into the alleged events surround the abduction and Paul, and it was the intention of the Crisis Committee to get a meeting with the church and to tell her that the church has evidence which may or may not conflict with theirs.  They were also aware of an urgent need to report to the community, and they were reporting to me that Mrs Mandela was willing to enter into a, quote,
"wider discussion",
unquote, that's, with the Crisis Committee, the church, the Mandela family and, possibly, Ismail Ayob.  Mr Mufamadi then indicated that he had reported fully to Mrs Mandela about the encounter between the Crisis Committee and the children in custody, along the lines that I described earlier.  In other words, when they visited them in the home.  The Crisis Committee reported to her about the community meeting and what had happened there, the conflict between her claim that the children had come voluntarily and what they had said to the community meeting.  
 They also reported how Katiza had confirmed that he had not been assaulted and had participated in assaulting the others, and also that he said he saw Stompie being taken out in bad condition.  They also reported to her of their meeting with Xoliswa.  She admitted she was the one who had informed Winnie and pointed the children out when they were fetched.  She was there, also, when they denied sexual abuse and, quote,
"Had to be given a few klaps,"
unquote, to get them to admit it and it, to admit that it had happened to them.  Xoliswa had been asked whether she had actually witnessed any sexual abuse, and her answer included that Stompie had once reported to her that Thabiso had interfered with him.  Katiza had once reported to her about Paul, and Gabriel sometimes used to sleep in Paul's room.  She, therefore, assumed he was party to these activities.  
 Beyers then reported that Winnie responded about Stompie.  She was informed that the police yesterday took action in arresting, quote,
"an ex-Captain of the then football club",
unquote.  She expects that there will be further arrests. She indicated that now it was in the hands of the police, and there was little more that she or the Crisis Committee could do.  
 With regard to Katiza, she indicated she had laid a charge and it was now in the hands of the police.  She said that ...

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, Peter, I just want to make an announcement about cars that have to be moved.  They are obstructing the way.  What is this, DDB514GP.  I don't know the make of the car, but I hope the driver or the owner knows the registration, and the other is LJK565, LJK565T. Can you please move your cars?  I'm sorry.

MR VALLY: Please go ahead, Bishop Storey.

BISHOP STOREY: With regard to Katiza, Mrs Mandela had indicated to the Crisis Committee that she'd laid a charge.  That was a charge against Mr Verryn, I think.  It was now in the hands of the police, and she said that we now have a situation of conflicting evidence, so far as the Crisis Committee is concerned.  No definite, clear corroboration could be made of what had happened.  She pointed out that the people supposedly guilty of abduction had not yet been questioned by the Crisis Committee.  Well, the Committee then said that they wanted to convey all of this to myself, and Mr Naidoo indicated the need for a positive approach with unity being the key, and Mr Mokoena said the church should be careful not to go its way, because the church also has enemies and in order to minimise this, togetherness was required.
 Beyers Naude then reported that Mrs Mandela, after all of this, pointed to the fact that here again was an example of a situation where people, for their own ends, present possible information where it can be used against other people.  She recalled the Cilliers Commission in Brandfort where a similar thing happened. The Committee then asked her specifically with regard to the Mandela Football Club that the children be put into the care of the Crisis Committee and relieve her of the responsibility.  She was adamant that the club had been disbanded long ago.
 I was then asked whether the church would be willing to enter into a meeting of the Crisis Committee, the Mandelas, and the church.  I indicated that there wasn'thing in principle against a meeting, but I pointed out that evidence in our possession must be dealt with and that, as late as yesterday, Mrs Mandela was making damning statements about Verryn and further assassinating his character and that of the church.  Also, that today there is a story about Jerry in the newspaper in which he alleges that Stompie went with Kenny one morning and they've not been seen since.  As long as the Crisis Committee was aware that, in any meeting with Winnie, these matters would have to be addressed.
 I also took exception to suggestions that we had run to the press and pointed out that both statements issued by us had been issued only in response to major attacks on the church by Mrs Mandela, and we agreed that I would consult on Friday morning, and that a meeting date with Mrs Mandela was set tentatively for three p.m. on the Friday.  I would phone Beyers Naude at 11 a.m. to confirm or cancel that date.  
 That afternoon I and Paul went, met two Maholi representatives to tell them about the visit to Stompie's mother, and this was the day that the Business Day carried a very full statement by myself responding to the long list of allegations that Mrs Mandela had made.  I think I just need to say that, to close off this section, that on Friday we met in the hope, fully expecting to meet with Mrs Mandela and the Crisis Committee at 2.45, and Mrs Mandela failed to arrive.

MR VALLY: If you could just go to your further record now. When was Stompie's body finally identified?

BISHOP STOREY: On the ninth, as far as I can recall. After an anonymous call to the South African Police on the sixth of January, his body had been found, and was identified around the ninth.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what happened on the 14th of February involving Ms Chili?