Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

CHAIRPERSON: If they merely gave names, I'm saying what certain people did, wasn't that in the ordinary course of their job?

MR VISSER: Well, in the ordinary course of their job, that wouldn't have been something that they would have done, that would have led nowhere.  Clearly what they were doing was collecting information that was passed on for action to be taken upon, clearly.  Now your point is ...

CHAIRPERSON: But is that so?

MR VISSER: Well, it must be so, Chairperson, what else were they doing?

CHAIRPERSON: I saw they gave names to Head Quarters previously when nothing occurred.

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly, but they could never turn around and say:  "We never expected that somebody would ..."

CHAIRPERSON: The fact that they associate themselves with the attack, maybe they, maybe after the fact.

MR VISSER: That's also a crime.

CHAIRPERSON: Or after them giving this information.

MR VISSER: It was certainly on their evidence after they gave the information that they realised that the information was going to be used in the attack, certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: But when they performed the act of giving information,

MR VISSER: Then they didn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: It was in the ordinary course of their duties.

MR VISSER: On their evidence that is what you've got ...

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore the question is asked then, of what are they guilty?

MR VISSER: Well, because they realised afterwards that the information which they gave was going to be ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So what are they guilty of?

MR VISSER: Well, they say they associated themselves, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: With what?

MR VISSER: With the raid in Botswana.  Both of them said so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MALAN: When did they know - sorry, just to refresh my memory, at what stage did they know that there was to be a raid?

CHAIRPERSON: They didn't...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Chairperson, they were not asked that.

CHAIRPERSON: They didn't know until after the raid.

MR VISSER: They were not asked that Chairperson, so I don't know.  No they couldn't have known after the raid.  In fact my attorney just points out to me, they were right there.

MR MALAN: They were at the monitoring point.

MR VISSER: Yes, so they knew beforehand.

MR MALAN: That's why I'm asking you.  Yes, both of them.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR MALAN: That certainly was my recollection.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Malan.  Yes, I'd forgotten about that.  They knew beforehand, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you.  That brings an end to this hearing.  Mr Steenkamp, will we be ready for tomorrow's hearing?

ADV STEENKAMP: We'll be ready tomorrow Chairman ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)  We'll adjourn to half past nine tomorrow.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman I was just wondering, I'm for the applicant in tomorrow's application.  I haven't seen him.  I saw him some time ago, but I haven't seen him lately.  I was just wondering whether I could ask you for a little time to be able to just go through his statement with him tomorrow morning, but we'll probably be ready by half past nine, but if we're not, could we approach you just for a little more time?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, are you here tomorrow?

MR BERGER: No, thankfully I'm out of it now.  I take it, Chairperson, that Judgment is being reserved and that is the end of this application.

CHAIRPERSON: Not on these difficult points, I'm not going to give it off the cuff.

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not an easy decision.

MR BERGER: Just for completeness sake.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS