Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: No, we were not allowed to think in that line, together with us there were Generals in Staff - Nico Prinsloo - and he was at that stage the representative of head quarters.  He had contact with head office, with Mr Terreblanche and if decisions were made regarding the suspension, then I believe that we would have received that instruction or message but we did not receive it.

ADV GCABASHE: This was a condition for joining the organisation, you should strictly follow orders, don't use your head in any particular circumstances?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I would not say that it was a condition but I was trained as a soldier for two years and I think that is probably why they also used me for certain things, to do certain things because I follow instructions as a soldier and accept them as such.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR BRACHER: Mr Du Plessis, you weren't in the army you were in an organisation where you could have resigned at any minute.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is not correct - if you join the Ystergarde you had to take an oath which amongst other things "If you walk in front follow me, if I turn back, shoot me."

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the Ystergarde?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're still alive?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes I'm still alive I was not shot, that is true yes.

MR BRACHER: But Mr Du Plessis, we've heard witness after witness saying they have turned their back on the AWB, it's the easiest thing in the world to do?  Yes, you're still a member aren't you but all the other people who have testified here have resigned and left the AWB?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: It is true, I did not physically hand in my resignation but I'm not an active member any more.

MR BRACHER: If you don't like killing innocent people you didn't have to, you could have resigned and gone to the Eastern Transvaal instead of the Western Transvaal or back to Ficksburg?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I could have done that yes.

MR BRACHER: In paragraph 11 you refer to a closed meeting, were you present at that meeting?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That was the meeting that was held at Trim Park in Ventersdorp if I'm not confused.

MR BRACHER: Were you part of the closed meeting?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I was present at that closed meeting yes.

MR BRACHER: No that talks about a coalition with the Afrikaner Volkfront - that had also fallen apart by the time you did the bombings because you couldn't have had General Viljoen in parliament and in a separate Volkstaat, could you?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: As far as I know, General Viljoen founded a political party, I do not know if he disbanded the Volksfront as such.

MR BRACHER: But the coalition was gone because he couldn't be a member of parliament in one country and a leader of another Volkstaat?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Viljoen was not the only member or the only person who governed the Volksfront.  There were other Generals in that Volksfront Committee.

MR BRACHER: Who were you relying on?  What other Generals were you relying on?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: The specific names I cannot remember at this stage but I know that there were other Generals who were in the police in the past.

MR BRACHER: Look at paragraph 13, you will remember at Ventersdorp there was a meeting and Mr Terreblanche said that the Commandos must go back and find out whether the people are ready for war or not.  Do you remember that?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct yes.

MR BRACHER: General Ackerman called for war and Terreblanche said "Hang on just go and find out whether people want war".  Now nobody has ever testified here in this hearing that anybody came back and said the people wanted war or not?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, I do not know about that but I personally did not go back and say that the people are looking for war.  At that day when General Ackerman and Mr Eugene Terreblanche addressed this meeting, I was pertinently told by Leon van der Merwe that I must go back, prepare myself, get my things ready, that in two or three weeks - he did not give me a specific date - then I will be called up to come back to the Western Transvaal.

MR BRACHER: But no Mr Du Plessis, your leader is Mr Eugene Terreblanche.  He says "hang on, General Ackerman has called for war but first go and find out whether people want war or not."  How can you override that instruction and say that somebody else told you differently.  Do you obey anybody who gives you the order that you want to hear?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: As far as I know, a decision was made regarding war.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever approached regarding war, fighting this war as it stands in paragraph 13?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: At that meeting I was not pertinently asked.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is my point, Terreblanche according to this paragraph said "wait, hold on it's good to on the one hand shout for war but go and find out if the people want a war, if they are prepared and ready for war."  Were you yourself asked about this war?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, at some of the previous meetings where Mr Terreblanche made this address that there would be war, I did agree with his speeches and some of my Commanders like Brigadier van der Merwe...[intervention].

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, if someone approached you, it could have been that you might have answered yes.  I would like to know, did someone ask you if you are ready and prepared?  As the order was given?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Pertinently at that meeting, I would not say that they asked me that but they knew it.

CHAIRPERSON: And at home did they ask you at a later stage?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: When I was called up Brigadier Leon van der Merwe did ask me if I was ready and if I can come up to the Western Transvaal.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, when you received the call up the decision was already made there is going to be a war.  In order to make that decision, Eugene Terreblanche asked "go and find out from the people if they are ready for war" at home, at work or wherever.  Were you approached?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That question was not put to me as pertinently as that?

CHAIRPERSON: Or any other place - were you asked if you were ready?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes, when Brigadier Leon van der Merwe called me up he asked me if I was ready.

CHAIRPERSON: So before that decision was made you were never approached to find out if you were ready for war?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Yes I agree with that, it was not a democratic decision.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Du Plessis, concerning this question - you were now a Commandant - the people over which you had command was that in the Ficksburg area?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: It was yes and the Eastern Free State area.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you hear from them if they were ready for war and what their role would be in this whole call up?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, they were not prepared to leave the Eastern Free State and go to the Western Transvaal.

ADV BOSMAN: Not even a single person?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: There were a few people but most of the people under my command did not go with.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you report that back to your higher command?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I did report it to Brigadier Leon van der Merwe.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR BRACHER: How many people were under you command in the Eastern Free State?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: If I can make a rough estimate it would be thirty.

MR BRACHER: Just move on to paragraph 22 - what does it mean to be a Commandant of Operations?