Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-08

MR NOFEMELA: We got off at Heideveld station.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And where did you go?

MR NOFEMELA: We get off there, through NY110 toyi-toying and singing up till we reached NY1.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How many were you at that stage?

MR NOFEMELA: Just estimating I think we were still a group of 80 to 90.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes and then what happened further, where did you go from there?

MR NOFEMELA: We went down the road singing to Iona Shopping Centre.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MR NOFEMELA: While we were at Iona it was me, Ntombeko Peni, we saw a bakkie, a red bakkie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MR NOFEMELA: And we asked for a lift to the places where we were staying.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And then you got on to the bakkie?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now how many of you got onto the bakkie?

MR NOFEMELA: We were three, the driver was the third person.

JUDGE WILSON: So does that mean two of you got on to a bakkie that had a driver in it? Twoof you...

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And - well the bakkie drove off and then what happened? You must remember, likeI told you earlier on, I wanted to take you through these paces because I amtrying to get a feeling or a view as to how the afternoon was like, the atmosphere.You got onto the bakkie and then what happened?

MR NOFEMELA: We drove with the bakkie and we passed the police station where we were to passthe BP Service Station and we've noticed that in NY108 there's a group of studentstoyi-toying and singing and we saw the COSAS flag.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: About how many students were there, can you estimate the size of the group?

MR NOFEMELA: I estimate 90 to 100 students.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, and then what happened?

MR NOFEMELA: We went down, still in the bakkie, and we saw in front of us that the cars werenot driving as normal as if there is something happening there in front.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why did you get off the bakkie? What was the purpose?

MR NOFEMELA: The purpose for us to get off we saw Amy Biehl crossing the street. While shewas crossing the street that's the purpose that made us to get off the bakkieand the cars were at standstill.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Where was this crowd of people, about 90 to 100, in relation to the deceasedwhen you first saw her?

MR NOFEMELA: They were very far from her because NY108 is up the street and NY1 is at theother side of the street.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you saw the deceased what was happening actually? Tell us more about whatyou saw there.

MR NOFEMELA: What I saw, she was crossing the street. She was bleeding from her face.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MR NOFEMELA: There were stones that were thrown at her. Someone tripped her, which is Mongesi.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well what you are saying to us is that when you saw her she was being attackedand she was possibly running away from an attack?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes she was running away from the attack.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now how many people appeared to have been attacking her, or chasing her?

MR NOFEMELA: The first one I saw was Mongesi and then afterwards while she was crossing thestreet I've noticed that there is a group of seven to eight people attackingher.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And was this some distance away from the group of 90 to 100 students, or whatwas the position?

MR NOFEMELA: Not a distance. What happens all those people who were there, but the peoplewho were really attacking, those who were attacking them were throwing stonesand those who were stabbing her while she is on the ground were eight or seven.They were stabbing her.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And in the meantime what were this group of 90 to 100 doing, if anything atall?

MR NOFEMELA: While some of them were busy throwing stones at the cars, some were throwingstones at her, although I have noticed that most of the people - okay no, someof them who were stabbing her were seven or eight.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't know if you will be able to tell us, how many vehicles were stoned,or did you see being stoned by this group of 90 to 100 people, that is in thevicinity of the place where the deceased was attacked? In the vicinity of theCaltex Garage.

MR NOFEMELA: I only arrived and seeing Amy Biehl's car and Amy Biehl, those were the onlythings I've noticed that were attacked, otherwise I have never seen anythingfurther.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If that is your answer I think I will have to go back to the question whichI asked earlier on and ask you, what were these 90 to 100 people doing at thetime when some of them were attacking the deceased, what were they doing, ifanything?

MR NOFEMELA: I would like to correct something. I said I saw the 90 to 100 group of peoplewhile we were passing NY108 and I've noticed that the flag was COSAS' flag,those I saw, the 80 to 90 group who were throwing stones at Amy's car and herself.

JUDGE WILSON: How could they have been throwing stones at her when there were seven to eightpeople around her stabbing her?

MR NOFEMELA: They were throwing stones at her while she was still running and crossing theroad.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was there any singing or chanting that you could hear of emanating from thedirection of the crowd?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes what?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes there was singing and chanting and singing the slogan "One Settler,one bullet".

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I interrupt before anybody else gets on to anything, is there a full copyof the judgment available?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I believe there is, yes. Would you like me ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know where?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I think it's in my office in fact. Obviously I didn't burden the record withit ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: No, but I wanted to look up something before I ask this witness something.

ADV DE JAGER: My colleague here tried to bring you back to the atmosphere prevailing during1993. That was quite a different atmosphere than is prevailing today, is thatcorrect? Is that correct?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir, it's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Would I be correct to say that during that period there were abnormal circumstancesprevailing?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir it's like that.

ADV DE JAGER: And it was a volatile period, is that correct?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: You should say if you don't agree with what I am putting to you. Now you saidthat day you were very emotional and "we find Amy Biehl in our location". Canyou tell us, during that period, would it have been safe for any White to go,as you stated, to "our locations" unprotected?

MR NOFEMELA: It was totally unsafe because PASO was demanding the land back to the Africans.

ADV DE JAGER: And did Whites frequently go into the townships, visiting the townships, withoutprotection?

MR NOFEMELA: They used to go there protected by Police.

ADV DE JAGER: And in fact if you have gone alone into the townships during those years itwould have been at a great risk, as a White person going to the townships?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: You stated in your statement that you received training from APLA operatorsand even demonstrations how to handle arms and ammunition, do you remember thatpart of your statement?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir I do remember.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you receive the training?

MR NOFEMELA: I just got it inside.

ADV DE JAGER: Where inside, inside what? Inside the township - where?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And what did the trainers tell you, what should you do, why are they trainingyou in arms and ammunition?

MR NOFEMELA: They trained us how to handle the ammunition. You must not face the guns tothe Africans or you must not play with the guns.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, and why should you be trained in handling of arms and ammunition, whatshould you do with the arms and ammunition?