Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Without explaining details, the reason why I called his friends, the people that I thought were his friends, and the reason why I took out a weapon was because of what he was saying and the things that he was saying showed that he might be dangerous or he is dangerous because at that time when you see a person with such a weapon you wouldn't just call out on the street saying that you would call the soldiers.  We didn't expect any person to call the soldiers at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you suspected because of that that he was an informer?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: He told me that he was going to call the police and the soldiers and he said that he knew that I had an AK47.  I then warned him.

ADV MOTATA: Now you somewhat mentioned that he knew his friends.  When you spoke to his friends, whom did you say was an informer and he should be warned?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: When I was talking to his friends because they were there with him, I asked his friends whether they can hear what he was saying and I said to them they must stop him or try to talk to him to stop what he was saying and they tried to stop him because they could hear what he was staying and they were trying to stop him and he didn't see at the time that I had an AK47 and I tried to give him a warning.  When I was trying to scare him, I then shot at him.

MS PATEL: Who are these friends of the victim in this matter that you refer to?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Please repeat your question ma'am?

MS PATEL: Who are the friends of the victim that you refer to, that you said you spoke to?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: When I'm saying friends, I don't mean that I know their names but they were together.  That showed me that they were his friends.  One of them was James.

MS PATEL: How did you know that they were not informers as well?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: That is why I did what I did because I knew that my life was in danger, I knew that what he was doing there are many people who are listening.  Even a person who didn't know this information would be informed because of what he said.  I then decided to take action because he was the one who was saying these things.

ADV DE JAGER: But you were standing in the street openly with an AK47 at that stage?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I said ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Isn't that so, yes or no?  Would you please answer the question?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I was not in the street, that is why I'm trying to explain that I was inside the yard.

CHAIRPERSON: Could everybody see that you had a gun?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: They didn't see that I had an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Could they have seen, I'm not asking if they did?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: They saw they weapon after realising that I had to use it.

CHAIRPERSON: Come Mr May, all I'm asking you, when this person said he's going to tell the police that you have an AK47, did you have an AK47 with you so that the people who were ordinary people who were walking in the street could see that you were in fact in possession of this firearm?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: The AK47 was with me but the way that I was holding it, people couldn't see it and it was during the night.  The people in the streets couldn't see it because I was inside the yard.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV DE JAGER: Now how did he see at that stage that you had the AK47 if it was at night?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: If it is at night it does not mean that you cannot see what is near you, he saw it when I was taking it out, he then went back.  That showed me that he saw the weapon.

ADV DE JAGER: And at that stage people were blaming the police and the soldiers because they didn't protect the community?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes that is correct, the police and the soldiers were not protecting the community.

ADV DE JAGER: Would it then be wrong for somebody to go to the police and tell them here's somebody with a weapon, come and protect us?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: That wouldn't be right at the time because that person was in the area that we protected.  We were the people who protected him and the police and the soldiers were not protecting him at that time.  But at the time he wouldn't tell the killers and say here is the person who is protecting us is having a weapon.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether this person wasn't perhaps a member of the ANC himself?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: We were not fighting with the ANC or the IFP, we were fighting with the people who were killing the community, there were a lot of ways to kill the community.  To inform the police was killing a community.  We were fighting even inside the ANC if there was a need, we were not looking at the IFP or the PAC.

ADV DE JAGER: So because he said he wanted to inform the police you regarded him as an enemy, is that right?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes I regarded him as an enemy.

ADV DE JAGER: And that was the reason why you shot at him?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I shot at him even though those were not my aims.  I tried to warn him and then eventually he was shot.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) is because you thought he thought of collaborating with the enemy, the police?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Mr May, what else did this victim know about you that he would have been able to inform on besides the fact that he saw you at that particular stage in possession of a firearm, what else did he know about you?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I wouldn't know because if a person is investigating about you he is investigating everything so I wouldn't know what he knew or what he didn't know.

MS PATEL: So for all you know, he may have known absolutely nothing about you?

CHAIRPERSON: Expect that he was in possession, unlawful possession of an AK47.

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: If you say so.

MS PATEL: You also mentioned in your evidence in chief that you shot at him because he was harassing you.  What do you mean by that?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: At that time when you were calling out or when you were telling people or when you did what you said you were going to do, telling the police, was to betray a person so he was trying to betray me.

MS PATEL: Okay, just for clarity, you may have mentioned this already but did he say - is the only thing that he said that he would tell the police that you were in possession of a firearm, of a weapon, is that all he said he would tell the police?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: I can say so but I didn't think something he said was very important, he said he was from Mozambique and he is used to an AK47.  I then realised that there was war between us.

MS PATEL: I don't understand, could you please explain?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: What I'm trying to say is when you are asking a question that except what he said that he was going to tell the police that I had an AK, if there was something else.  There was nothing else except that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was in other words a threat to you and in so being a threat to you he was a political opponent?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: His actions showed that.

MS PATEL: Just to confirm, he said he was from Mozambique?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes that's what he said, even the language he used.

MS PATEL: So he - okay.  What else did you know about him?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: As I've already said I was not staying in that area for a long time, I was just there when I was hiding so I don't know much about him but I found out that he knew a lot about me.

MS PATEL: But you've already conceded that you don't know what he knew about you except of course that he saw you in possession of an AK47?

CHAIRPERSON: Well and that he threatened to tell the police and soldiers.

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes that is all, there's nothing else.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL