Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Nduli drove past this car and braked in front of it and the car collided violently with us from behind, both vehicles moved forward.  At this spot we were still on the freeway and approaching traffic lights.  The car then stopped and Lembede and I jumped out and approached the suspects' vehicle.  Suddenly there was a large number of shots fired at the suspects' car, as it appeared later, the reaction unit.  Lembede and I found ourselves caught in the crossfire with bullets whistling around our ears.  We ran away up the embankment between the off-ramp and the N2 freeway and came down after the shooting had ceased and when we deemed it safe to return.
	When I got back to the scene I was ordered by General Steyn to go to the house where the suspects were thought to have left their weapons and go and fetch it.  I believe I was accompanied by a Black member who knew where the house was situated but I cannot remember who this was.  We drove quickly back to the house.  The Black member went into the house and returned with a sports bag and we then returned to the scene of the shooting as quickly as possible.  At the scene of the shooting I handed the bag to Director Botha in such a way as it was not to be seen by others at the scene.  I noticed when the bag was opened there were AK-47s in the bag. 	Botha then planted these weapons on the occupants of the car.
	In doing what I did I executed my duties as a policeman on the orders of a senior commander.  The way I saw it as my obligation during a time of conflict and political violence.  I did not hesitate to participate in the planting of the firearms on the suspects and to commit the defence of defeating the ends of justice in the belief that I was thereby assisting in avoiding embarrassment for the SAP and the Government.

MR VISSER: Yes not despite the fact that you also took part in the shooting and therefore you're also applying for amnesty for murder obviously?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Please continue?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: We were conditioned by speeches of politicians and directions by senior officers to do everything in our power to confront the revolutionary onslaught at all costs.  The victims in the present case were all members of MK I was told and who had previously committed political acts of terror.  In view of the above I was of the bona fide belief that what I did in the present instance in order to combat or derail the revolutionary onslaught and to protect the Government and National Party from political embarrassment fell within my express or implied authority.  I did not participate in this event for any personal gain or driven by personal malice, by personal spite or malice and I received no reward.

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, your application before this Committee would then be for your participation in the killing of Mr Blessing Mabaso, Thabani Mamela, Percival Mgobozi and Mbongeni Zondi.  You in fact were in possession of the AK-47s which you yourself said you saw in the bag.  Did you also see any other arms in that bag?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: There were hand grenades, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Hand grenades, so you would ask for amnesty for the unlawful possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition as well as hand grenades for the time in which you had custody of that bag, not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: And any lesser offence including defeating the ends of justice, is that not correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: And that is by not having reported what had actually happened to the authorities?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And you were aware of course that the weapons were planted as you've already stated and you were aware that that was unlawful as well?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is so, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, suggestions have been made that there might have been a helicopter present on the scene during the chase on that occasion.  Can you shed any light on that as far as you can recall?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there was no helicopter whatsoever on this occasion.

MR VISSER: Do you believe that you would have remembered it if there was?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I would have remembered it, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR VISSER: Allow me to say that we have had a long day, it's now 6 minutes to 4.  I wondering whether we could take the adjournment for the afternoon now.  I'm probably finished with this witness and he can then perhaps be cross-examined tomorrow morning if it suits you Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Well you tell me that you're probably finished with him or have you finished?

MR VISSER: I probably have Mr Chairman, there may be one or two issues.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR VISSER: Pardon Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you finish your evidence in chief?

MR VISSER: Yes but I would like to take an adjournment now Chairperson, if I may bung five minutes off you?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn at this stage so that cross-examination would obviously - we can't dispose of this witnesses evidence this afternoon in cross-examination and it's suggested that we resume cross-examination early tomorrow morning.  Mr Webster?

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman, I don't have a particular objection to a postponement but I would have preferred that the witness conclude his application or his evidence before the Committee and I'd be probably, through you, permitted to ask just one question and that would be where do I find Breytenbach because I believe he is in the police force.  The witness may be able to help me and I would look forward to the postponement so that I could speak to Breytenbach.

CHAIRPERSON: Think very hard, are there are there any other questions you might want to put, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I was going to suggest that we continue with the witness and if possible do the cross-examination because as it is we are running way behind schedule.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Webster, if we do not finish your part of the cross-examination you are available tomorrow morning?

MR WEBSTER: I will be.  I will be and as I indicate Chairperson, it would suit me to have an early adjournment so that I can as I indicated I unfortunately have without even an assistant or an investigator in the case here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: So if I just through you just ask Mr Wasserman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please put your question?

MR WEBSTER: Mr Wasserman, where do I get Mr Breytenbach, can you help me?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, he is still in the force and I think he is at headquarters, he is still involved with public order policing somewhere.

MR WEBSTER: Is that in Pretoria?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, here in Durban.

MR WEBSTER: At C R Swart or where is that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The headquarters at Point.

MR WEBSTER: At Point?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: At Point.

MR WEBSTER: At Point Police Station?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, at the reaction unit the old Point Prison.

MR WEBSTER: Oh I see, I see thanks.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The number 9 barracks.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WEBSTER

CHAIRPERSON: Some of the cross-examination directed at the first two applicants in this matter covered ground, I trust that you it will not be necessary to cover all that ground in the cross-examination of this witness?

MR WEBSTER: That is generally the idea Mr Chairman unless there's something very untoward.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but you'll think that your consultation with Breytenbach will assist you in formulating questions or avoiding any questions?

MR WEBSTER: That is quite so, thank you.