Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-01

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: I believe that to be the case. If I remember correctly that was the only one that he as involved with.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were these arrests effected as a result of the information received from your informer, Mr Mabena? The previous arrests that we have referred to?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No Chairperson.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can I just ask another question.  With regard to the previous arrests referred to by Mr van der Merwe was there ever any payment made to the informers, no, to the people who assisted, members of the police who assisted in effecting such arrests?  Was there any payment made to members of the police?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No not to members of the police, no, not as far as I know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now was this incident the first incident where a member of the Security police was paid a special bonus in assisting to execute an operation?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: As far as I know, yes the only one.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now what was so special about this operation that warranted a special payment to a member of the security force?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Chairperson I think there are very few people sitting here in this hall who would have had the conviction and the courage to do that, what Sehlwana did, and that was the reason why he was rewarded.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Wasn't it part of his duties to collect information from informers as was also part of Mr van den Berg?  I thought Mr van den Berg also assisted a great deal in the collection of the information that led to the identity of, that led to the information that six cadres would be infiltrating the country?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Chairperson Sehlwana wasn't rewarded for the information that he forwarded, he was rewarded for the deed he did to actually physically transport the people while his life was in danger.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it reasonably expected by the security people who were involved in the planning such as yourselves that there might be a loss of life in the execution of this operation?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Chairperson that was always foreseen that that might happen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Coetsee.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Coetsee we heard earlier that two of the security policemen died when they arrested people.

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Who were they?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: The one was Warrant Officer Theuns Gerber and the other one was Sergeant Joggie Nel.  They were stationed at the Security Branch at Messina.

ADV DE JAGER: Did that occur before this incident?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No it was after this incident.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they die after this incident?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: They died in December '86.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Chairperson. There was a court case following this where they were prosecuted, do you have any knowledge of this court case, a criminal prosecution at Messina?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: I wasn't involved myself with the court case.

ADV VISSER: Do you have knowledge of the issues on which they were charged, can you tell us?

ADV DE JAGER: I think you will get that information from Advocate Black because he actually acted in that case.

ADV VISSER: Do you suggest that I should put him there as witness!! (Laughter)

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: They were convicted and sentenced yes.

ADV VISSER: And it was members of the Security Branch who apprehended the guilty parties after the murder on these two policemen?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: It was only Ngulube who was involved in the death of Gerber Nel and he was arrested by members of the security force.

ADV VISSER: Can you remember by which members of the security force he was arrested or can't you remember that?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No those were people from Messina, I cannot remember who they were.

ADV VISSER: Can I just take you to task on something else?  You would have thought that if a tape recording was made that it would have handed it to you, is that youR evidence, a tape recording of the discussion that was held with this wounded person at the scene?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Can I just put it to you, if someone makes a tape recording because he doesn't want to take notes and then there is nothing to take notes, why would the tape recording have been handed to you?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No then there's no reason for that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am not sure I understand you, why would the tape recorder not be necessary?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: If there's nothing on the tape recording, if there's nothing of importance.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well the mere fact that there is a voice on the tape supposedly made by somebody who was injured in confrontation with the security force, no matter how unintelligible that conversation may be, isn't that in itself enough to cause that tape recorder to be kept safely and be handed over?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct Chairperson but I have no knowledge that there was any such recording.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If I remember your evidence Mr Coetsee, you were given a report, a verbal report by the officers concerned and no mention was ever made of the tape recording, is it not so?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: There was no reference made to any tape recording.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you Mr Coetsee you are excused.  You may stand down.
MR COETSEE EXCUSED

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman I note that it's five to four.  I hope that we have been able to do a job's work today.  Perhaps we can adjourn until tomorrow.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes I think we should adjourn until tomorrow at half past nine.
	And we appeal to the relatives if they can to try to be on time so that we can start at half past nine.
HEARING ADJOURNS