Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I am in the Commission's hands.  It is half an hour before we adjourn - do you want me to start with the next witness?  I call Mr Hermanus Barend du Plessis.  May I just ask that the witness turns around that I can help him with documents?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: (sworn states)

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, just before we proceed in this matter, if I may just refer to the original paragraph (a) at page 18 - it is apparent and I talk about 9 (a) (1), it is apparent from the context in which the witness is speaking, that he would in fact also be applying for - page 17 (c) now, it has been amended in fact, in the amended papers we handed in, but I just want to make it clear that on page 18 in the original record as it was, the Commission would notice that it was kidnapping, death and removal of Siphiwe Mthimkhulu and that the application was made, Topsy Madaka had not been added.   And that Topsy Madaka had in fact not been added, but in fact however, even if one reads the papers it is apparent that was I am informed due to an oversight and in any event, has in fact been rectified in so far as the supplementary pages that we have handed in now, that appears at page 17(c), sorry it hadn't been rectified there as well, but that obviously because we have just had to retype it, but I would ask for leave to amend the papers in this regard and to add the name of Topsy Madaka there.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no objection to that.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Du Plessis, I just wish to ascertain the documents you have in front in you are the same as those I have because they have been slightly amended.
	Do you confirm the particulars in paragraph 17 (a) of the document?  That is the first page?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And do you confirm also the particulars on 17 (b)?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Including your personal background?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there is a slight mistake about his name.

MR BOOYENS: I take your point Mr Chairman.  The identity however, hopefully is not in dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: That can also be amended at any time.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  As far as paragraph 17 (c) is concerned, up to paragraph 9 (a), do you confirm the particulars as contained there?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I confirm that as well.

MR BOOYENS: That is page 17 (c) as a matter of fact.  Is there anything that you would like to add regarding personal circumstances, background, overview and etc?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, there is nothing I wish to add.

MR BOOYENS: I have already on your behalf applied, but is it correct that you do apply for amnesty for the abduction, death and removal of Siphiwe Mthimkhulu and Topsy Madaka?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Or for any other wrongful dead that might flow from this?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: As in the case of your predecessor in this chair, I would like to lead you with regard to the circumstances which occurred here.  In 1982 you were a Captain in the Security Branch and stationed in Port Elizabeth, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And were you in command of the Unit for Black Matters?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: The previous person, Mr Van Rensburg, was he at a different desk?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, his desk was concerned with Trade Union matters.

MR BOOYENS: So they were two different desks?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Nieuwoudt was under your command?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And was Mr Nieuwoudt a field worker working under your command?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Were the deceased Siphiwe Mthimkhulu and Topsy Madaka known to you in your official capacity?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Was information regarding their activities collected in physical and non-physical fashion?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Just to explain these terms, physical means by direct observation, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And non-physical is something like taking, getting hold of mail, listening in on telephone conversations, etc?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, let us then first deal with the information at your disposal regarding the activities of Siphiwe Mthimkhulu.  What did he become involved in, why were you interested in him and then Ii would like you to expand on his activities and actions after he had returned from his restriction until the time of the decision that he had to be killed.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, he was one of the main figures in COSAS in Port Elizabeth.  He was also responsible for inciting and politicisation of the black youth here in the black areas and also in the surrounding areas such as Uitenhage even as far as East London.
	As a consequence of this, there were continual schools boycotts with related burning of schools, arson committed on schools, stone throwing actions in the black townships and this also led to Trade Union strikes.

MR BOOYENS: So it widened out from the school pupils?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: We heard testimony here that he was ill when he returned from Cape Town, he was in hospital in Groote Schuur is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Could you possibly just explain the type of role, did it in any way or was he restricted in any manner by his illness in his activities according to your information?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The organising continued after his release from hospital from Groote Schuur.  He was confined to a wheelchair but they took him to meetings in his wheelchair.  The politicisation continued and I would say it was actually intensified because they now regarded him to be on a higher level and COSAS per se then used him as such.

MR BOOYENS: Was he himself involved in addressing meetings  although he was confined to a wheelchair?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And, we understand that he couldn't walk initially, but let us concern ourselves with his state of health until the time of his abduction.  Did his health condition improve?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was he still confined to a wheelchair at the time that he was abducted?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairman.  He was no longer in a wheelchair.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember while we are talking about his abduction, what vehicle did they use?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: They were in Topsy Madaka's vehicle, I am not certain of the make but I think it was a Mazda.

MR BOOYENS: Was it a car or a kombi?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, it was a car.

MR BOOYENS: Was the wheelchair in the vehicle?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, there was no wheelchair in the vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: Were you satisfied from the information that you had gleaned that Mr Mthimkhulu was still involved and as a matter of fact more involved in his political activities?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Let us put it this way, his body was effected but his brain and his mouth wasn't effected?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, these things weren't.

MR BOOYENS: Topsy Madaka, where did he fit into things?  What was your information in his regard?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Topsy Madaka was always accompanying Mthimkhulu and the information was that he was firstly his right hand man and where Siphiwe acted above ground, openly, Madaka operated underground or covertly amongst cells.