Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

MR BLACK: And you took along with you a certain Mr Van Dyk, who you described as being the person who would be charged with recording the events in writing and perhaps electronically, and conveying this information to Pietersburg and broadly he was in charge of activating the information network.  That is Mr Van Dyk, Col Van Dyk.

A J G ERWEE: That is correct, Chairperson.  Maybe I should add or clarify something.  I didn't instruct him to tape the information there.  It wasn't a direct instruction from my side.

MR BLACK: But he did in fact do so, didn't he?

A J G ERWEE: That's correct.

MR BLACK: He electronically recorded the events.

A J G ERWEE: I know of the interrogation that that part was taped, I don't know what else he taped. I can't give you any evidence on that.

MR BLACK: Just for your information and I assume Col Van Dyk would be able to testify, but I have been informed that there exists a tape and in fact, I think Mr Van den Berg also testified to that effect, that he heard a tape which recorded shooting and a whistle sound.  That tape you have never listened to.  Is that correct?

A J G ERWEE: I have never listened to that tape.

MR BLACK: Now I put it to you that you went to the scene, well-prepared with a - whatever you want to call him - one of your men, who was specifically there for the purposes of recording facts and any information and at the same time you also expected or anticipated the real possibility of shooting.  Just to sum it up.  Would that be a correct assumption?

A J G ERWEE: I will not say that.

UNKNOWN: But Mr Chairman, this is the evidence of this witness.  If my learned friend wishes to put something else then I think he must make it clearer what he means.

MR BLACK: I have just given him an opportunity for the next question. I have just, I heard the answer of Mr Erwee saying to the effect that "ek sal nie so se nie".  Now I don't know what that meant. Is that correct, Mr Erwee, before I was interrupted, you said "ek sal nie so se nie"?

INTERPRETER: The witness said I will not say that.

A J G ERWEE: I didn't give specific instructions to Col Van Dyk to do a recording of the whole incident from A to Z.  I appointed him that evening and said to him that he should get all the information possible and that he should give it through to the official channel.  I have had a few tasks, a lot of tasks and I had to delegate certain tasks. I never instructed him to make a recording.

MR BLACK: Okay.  At any stage was a map drawn of the scene as to where the bodies were, what, where the various vehicles were parked, after the shooting had taken place?  For your record purposes?

A J G ERWEE: No, for my purposes of record we have never drafted such a map. Only the map that we have drawn up now for our legal representatives, that's the only map I have.

MR BLACK: Sorry, when I mean for your purposes, I mean for the purposes of police records.  And were any photographs taken of the scene?

CHAIRPERSON: But then, what is the answer to your question?

MR BLACK: Oh, sorry.  When I have said for your purposes, I didn't mean for your particular purposes, but for the purposes of the police or any further consequences which may arise out of the incident.

A J G ERWEE: No, Chairperson.

MR BLACK: Were any photographs taken of the scene afterwards?

A J G ERWEE: Not that I know of on the scene of the accident. I know of photographs taken at the Alldays police station with regard to the bodies and the weapons.

MR BLACK: Yes, now ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute.  Why was not a sketch drawn up? I mean that happens even when cars have collided.  At a scene like that where six people have been killed, one would expect that there would be a map and a sketch drawn up by the police, and in fact, photos taken of the scene.  Why were these things not done?

A J G ERWEE: You are correct, for an inquest you need maps, sketches, full investigations, a plan.  That is the normal procedure.  However, I did not apply the normal procedure, I wanted to clear the road as quickly as possible because I felt there was nothing here that I was not willing to make known and I also didn't want to let the community in the area see the scene. I admit now that that was perhaps incorrect.  But the professional procedures were not followed.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a document here which reads "sleutel tot plan".

MR BLACK: That is of the bodies taken at Alldays Police Station, Mr Chairman.

A J G ERWEE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I appreciate that you wanted to clear the road, but surely you needed only two or three people to remain at the scene and to do the things that we are asking why they were not done.  Especially before you ... (intervention).

A J G ERWEE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just add, that especially if there was nothing to hide.

A J G ERWEE: Yes, that is correct.  I admit that it was neglect on my part not to handle the scene in a professional way.  Because I was there, I felt at that moment it wasn't necessary to do it in such detail, but now I see it was incorrect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that must have been - that is a major neglect.

A J G ERWEE: I agree, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to get behind the reason for that.

A J G ERWEE: Mr Chairperson, at that stage I won't say I lost control, but at that stage with the scene being cleared up, adrenalin flowing, bodies being taken away, I didn't even think any further as to how to deal with the scene. It was only when I got to Alldays that I realised that there would have to be an inquest and a post-mortem, and it was only then that I really came to my senses, if I can put it that way, and I started thinking clearly as to what the next legal and administrative processes were.  I didn't really think of that earlier on, myself or my seniors.  We didn't have any of those experts, fingerprint people, photographers, et cetera on standby and that was wrong.  And after the shooting that was the last thing on my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are a reasonably experienced policeman?

A J G ERWEE: As far as internal stability and security was concerned, yes, I was quite experienced.  But as far as inquests and so forth are concerned, I wasn't really that familiar with it.  We usually had other branches to deal with those processes and also to promote impartiality.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what would have been more important for Mr Dreyer to note and tabulate, something which would have been more important than the physical objects there, the location of the Kombi, the corpses, the injured person and the like. I would have thought that if he was to note anything, surely that would be some of the important things that he would have to note.  Or is it Van Dyk, I am not sure.  Mr Van Dyk, I think.

A J G ERWEE: Correct, Chairperson, Van Dyk was instructed to make notes.  We actually anticipated an arrest that we were going to take down their particulars quickly and then forward that.  But maybe we have omitted in our planning that people would have been killed that day.  Maybe that's why I felt that Van Dyk was the person to take care of this specific recording business.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand why you would not have made provision for the stability of the people being killed, because you were specifically instructed by your senior that if the need arise, you would have to kill to protect my people, my personnel.

A J G ERWEE: That is correct, yes. Those were our instructions, and I admit that it was a neglect on our part that we didn't foresee that we would end up with six bodies and that we needed the professional assistance of these people and deal with this professionally. It was a neglect on our part.