Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: After Dandala had alighted and gone into the or to the direction of the house he came back. When he came back he went into the car he told us that the person will be coming. When the person came from the house, that is Batandwa he was wearing a track suit. If I am not mistaken it was a track suit. Before he came to the car, he was a distance away from the car Shosha said indeed this is the person we are coming to find. As he was coming we were then certain that indeed this is the person we were after. I was at that seat where I was sitting and Shosha in the front seat. Dandala when he came back from the house he went to the same seat where he was sitting before.

MR KNIGHT: And then what transpired?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When he came to the car he came in, closed the door. Its the door close by him or myself I don't know. I cannot remember. My window was open. He came into the car. When inside Bra Mos asked Dandala to introduce himself to that person. Dandala complied and showed that person his ID. He showed him, this person. After showing him he took this ID and looked at it and from there Noma Shosha or Shosha sat on that seat facing now to the back straight with Dandala. That is now Shosha is at the front. She had looked back kneeling on the seat, on the front seat holding handcuffs with her hands, holding handcuffs with her hands. Noma Shosha or Shosha she named him by a name telling him: "Batandwa can you remember me still?" That is where Batandwa jumped. The door could not open as we were, the door of the car we were travelling in. When the door would not open he decided to use the alternative of the window, the nearest one trying to go out. His whole upper body was outside. When he tried to escape that way me and Dandala at that time the car is in motion. Bra Mos was saying: "We are trying to discuss with you something." Before the car could leave and Dandala showing the ID. The car moved on and it showed that he was not prepared to, he tried to run away. We held his feet, it is me and Dandala. This person had a hefty body and his whole body was outside and it was apparent that he was too heavy and he was using his feet and kicking and so on and we could not go on holding his feet. Bra Mos decided because this person is going to get hurt as the car is in motion. Bra Mos then decided to reduce the speed until it then stopped. At that time we are still trying to hold on to his feet and his shoe ...

MR KNIGHT: ... at when he jumped out of the window or attempted to jump out what speed was the vehicle doing in your estimation?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The estimation of the speed is that it was moving very slowly. It was then that Bra Mos tried to stop the car because he could see that we could not go on holding Ndondo that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you estimate the speed or can you not?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It had no speed really. It was about to stop. Very slow.

CHAIRPERSON: But at the time when the deceased you know started to jump at what speed was the motor vehicle travelling at the time?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It may have been moving 10 km per hour.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. How far had you travelled in the vehicle from the deceased house to the point that he attempted to jump out of the vehicle? How long had that been? Was it a short distance? How far had you managed to travel? Can you recollect that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Say it is 100m from where he stayed. It was not far.

MR KNIGHT: Now at the time that he entered into the vehicle and Bra Mos drove off and this is before he jumped out of the vehicle what was your understanding of where you were going to take him? What I am getting to is were you going to take him to the police station or were you going to take him back to Barkley East?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: What I can say is that the decision was to be taken by Bra Mos but our way seemed to be pointing to Barkley East.

MR KNIGHT: So you were heading in the direction of Barkley East. Now Bra Mos was your commanding officer and is it correct that he was in charge of where the vehicle was going? You didn't know precisely where he was going to go or did you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is correct.

MR KNIGHT: Now just before we get into the incident something I want to clarify regarding the manner in which South African police co-operated with the Transkei police. Is it true that you as a South African policeman on Transkei soil could not arrest him for a crime committed in South Africa or suspected in South Africa?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was so but we had a Transkeian policeman who was the one who was then supposed to represent us in certain matters.

MR KNIGHT: And as far as your understanding of the planning of that day and your recollection thereof goes the intention was to take him back to Barkley East. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I think so. That is how I see it.

MR KNIGHT: What would have happened had he not escaped and had you proceeded to Barkley East? What would have become of Mr Ndondo? To whom would he have been handed over?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: As we had found him it would have been necessary for Mos to try and phone senior members who had provided Dandala and to communicate with those and to determine where that person must be taken to.

MR KNIGHT: How would you have communicated with him? Did you have a radio in the car or?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: We did not have a radio but we had phone numbers.

MR KNIGHT: Now let us go back now to the details of immediately after the deceased fell from the car and the car came to a halt. You were saying that Bra Mos then jumped out. Can you then continue to tell us what happened?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When the car stopped, Bra Mos when it stopped we had already lost control of him. I was trying to reach my gun as Bra Mos was jumping out of the car he went in front of the car holding him. Bra Mos was carrying a gun.

MR KNIGHT: Is the HMC a 9mm gun?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It is HMC something like that. He was holding that gun. Bra Mos started shooting with that HMC. When I was alighting trying to open the door took out my gun as I was holding a clutch bag. As I was alighting Bra Mos said he must not run. He started shooting I too started shooting at that time.

MR KNIGHT: So Bra Mos started shooting. At the time that Bra Mos started shooting the deceased had run away from the vehicle. Is that correct? He was not at the vehicle? He was running away. How far would you say he was when the first shots were fired to your recollection? If you can't remember you must say you can't remember but.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I would say the distance that he had ran may have been about 15 m away from the kombi when Bra Mos started shooting. When I alighted he was about 20 m away from the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the deceased or Bra Mos?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was the deceased who was at that distance.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Now what prevented you from alighting the car immediately that he had fallen to the ground?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The reason why I could not alight from the car fast a gun was on the seat.

MR KNIGHT: And was the sliding door locked?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The sliding door of the kombi we were using you could not open from the inside. You had to open using your hand from the outside handle.

MR KNIGHT: Now immediately that you alighted the vehicle the evidence of Mr Dandala was that you became ensued in a struggle with the deceased and that he then escaped your grasp and you shot him at a very close range as he was running away. What is your comment on that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I disagree with that because I was at the back seat. As if I distort story that I could go to him and have a struggle with him. I could not. That I disagree with that. I only held him whilst we were inside. With Dandala I disagree with that.