Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, but the situation warranted that we should take such decisions because we needed the arms and ammunition but we did not have the money.  So, we realised that we had to do anything in our power in order to be able to quell the violence and they had to act in accordance with the instructions given to them.

MS BOSMAN: Am I correct then in understanding you to say that you had acted outside the scope of general ANC policy?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I could say that, but that was still the principle of the ANC because we did not have the arms and ammunition.  So, we had to use whatever we had in order to obtain them.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, just to clarify this now.  In your meeting between yourself, Nkonyane, Zwane and Mkhwanazi was it discussed that armed robberies would take place to enable you to obtain arms and ammunition?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We did not discuss that at the meeting, but we left the decision-making to Mzwandile and the self-defence units that they could do anything in their power in order for them to be able to protect the community.  We never specifically told them what to do, but we gave them the powers to act in whatever manner possible in order to try and quell the violence and maintain peace.  So, we gave them the authority to do whatever in their power or in their discretion.  So, they had to decide for themselves as to what action or pattern to follow.

MR HATTINGH: But the fact that you would agree or accept armed robbery was never conveyed to the operatives like Mr Gushu?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Gushu was doing anything that was going to enable him to obtain firearms and ammunition in order to protect the members of the community.  He did anything in his discretion or his power.  He could rob, he could steal, he could do anything that he deemed fit as long as he was going to be able to protect the community.  We accepted that.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, would you just answer my question.  The fact that your committee accepted and were happy with the fact that armed robberies would be committed, was that information conveyed to an operative like Mr Gushu?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's put it this way.  Did you speak to Mr Gushu yourself?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when he was given these instructions?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, I wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: So, can you say what was told to him?

JOHN MNDEBELE: What I know is that we discussed that at a meeting at some stage, the fact that Mkhwanazi conveyed whatever was discussed at the meeting and passed it onto Gushu.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to tell us what was conveyed to Gushu exactly?

JOHN MNDEBELE: What I know is that Mkhwanazi told Gushu all that we discussed at the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when that occurred?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, I was not present at that stage when Gushu was being told, but I do know it for a fact that we sat at some stage, the four of us, and discussed what should be done.  Then Mkhwanazi would be the go-between between us as the committee and Gushu.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mister, I think that's the closest we're going to get.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  In paragraph seventeen (17), the last line thereof, you make mention of "response required of a responsible organisation to deal with the situation".  Is it your evidence that instructions to a person to assassinate and to commit armed robberies is in keeping with a responsible organisation?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The situation warranted that.  We did realise that it was not the best action to follow, but we had absolutely no option at that time because it was a war situation, there was violence.  It was not a moral issue that we had to discuss or to deal with, but we had to protect lives.

MR HATTINGH: In paragraph seventeen (17) you say that Zwane was assassinated in July 1991.  Can you remember today approximately when this meeting was held where it was decided to instruct someone to commit the assassination?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I don't remember the date, but it was before that.

MR HATTINGH: Are you in a position to give any indication as to approximately how many weeks or months prior to the killing of Mr Zwane the decision had been made?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I think it was four weeks prior to his death, if I'm quite positive.  I think it was four weeks.

MR HATTINGH: After Mr Zwane had been killed, did you get a report back from either Mr Gushu or anyone else with regard to your instructions?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, we did get that from Mr Mkhwanazi.

MR HATTINGH: What was reported back to your committee?

JOHN MNDEBELE: He told us that the mission had been accomplished.  We echoed that and said we hoped that there would be relative peace and calm.

MR HATTINGH: What was reported to you about the other three people that were injured in this incident?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We also were informed that there were other victims who got injured, but because of the situation at that time we were not able to do anything.  We just accepted it as we were told that they were victims.

MR HATTINGH: During the reporting back were you advised how this assassination was carried out, in what form, with what weapons?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We never got a full report as to the details, but we were quite satisfied that he had been eliminated and that the violence was going to be quelled.

MR HATTINGH: During the period ... (intervention)

JOHN MNDEBELE: They told us that the mission had been accomplished.

MR HATTINGH: Was Mr Gushu present at this reporting back?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, he wasn't.  We never liaised with Gushu at any stage.

MR HATTINGH: Have you met Mr Gushu at any stage?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I once saw him.

MR HATTINGH: When was that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is after Jwi had been killed.

MR HATTINGH: Did you speak to him?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, I never did.

MR HATTINGH: Now, in this period between July 1991 and February 1992 when your committee once again resolved to assassinate another person, namely Chris Ngwenya, what happened in that interim period?

JOHN MNDEBELE: When did we meet?  What period did you say we met?

MR HATTINGH: According to paragraph seventeen (17) and eighteen (18) of your background statement, Zwane was assassinated in July 1991 and your special committee once again met in February 1992 where it was resolved to assassinate Chris Ngwenya.

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: The question is, what occurred in the interim period with regard to fighting and meetings of your special committee?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Your question is vague.  Could you please clarify it.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you find it necessary then to have Chris Ngwenya assassinated?  What occurred that led to that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The violence continued, even more than before and there was a time where people from the night school or adults who were attending night school were killed.  That is when we realised that there was no way that the violence was going to stop and Chris at that time was the leader and the information that we elicited was that he was working with Israel Hlongwane and they were destabilising the community.  We realised that if Chris was to be eliminated maybe the violence could stop once more.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, according to your annexure A1, page eighteen (18) and page nineteen (19) of the bundle, it would appear that as from approximately August 1991 until the time in February 1992, when your special committee resolved that Chris Ngwenya was to be assassinated, that nothing of note occurred.  There are no indications of any killings of ANC people for a six month period prior to your decision to eliminate Mr Ngwenya.