Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS QUNTA: Can I ask you a question now.  Did in any - your statements relating to this matter, did you receive any reward or any payment in respect of that?

MR SIBAYA: In connection with what, please clarify?

MS QUNTA: With the Heidelberg Tavern incident and the statements you've made, have you received any reward, was there perhaps a reward or anything, any payment in respect of these statements and the assistance you gave the police?

MR SIBAYA: Where would I be getting the reward from?  I don't understand your question well.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not where you got it from, the question is whether you did get a reward, the answer is yes or no.

MR SIBAYA: No I did not get a reward.

JUDGE WILSON: You've told us you had R40 000 you saved in the savings account at the Standard Bank, Claremont, is that correct?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: When did you open that savings account?

MR SIBAYA: In 1992, I opened this account in 1992.  I used all the money in 1993.  I opened the account in 1992 and I used the money in 1993.

ADV SANDI: How much did you use in 1993?

MR SIBAYA: I used all the money because I was building a house, between 40 and 45 000.

JUDGE WILSON: So since 1993 you haven't had money in the savings account, is that the position?

MR SIBAYA: I have nothing in the account.

JUDGE WILSON: Would you have any objection to that account being made available, the records of the account?

MR SIBAYA: You can get a complete report from the Standard Bank, they call it Kromboom, Kenilworth Centre.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let's carry on please.

MS QUNTA: You've just indicated that you didn't have money in that account since 1993, is that correct?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

MS QUNTA: But we were referring to January 1996 with regard to the deposit slip shown to Mr Levy and you indicated then that you only had 40 000, not 325 000 so you are contradicting yourself there once more.  What is the correct version?

MR SIBAYA: It is Priscilla Nokaya Sibaya who had that amount from the same branch.

MS QUNTA: I am referring to the 40 000, I am referring to the 40 000, not the 320 000.

MR SIBAYA: Correct.  That is so.

MS QUNTA: So in fact you were not telling the truth then?

MR SIBAYA: You can go to the bank you will get the truth from the bank.  It is on record.

MS QUNTA: There is also a branch, Standard Bank branch in Claremont, that is where the 320 000 was from.

MR SIBAYA: No my account is in Kromboom Road, Kenilworth Centre.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya I am going to put it to you now, at the end of my examination, as I said earlier on, with the exception of your name, your ID number and your address, on the basis of the numerous contradictions, and the numerous inconsistencies in your statement and the inconsistencies in this very evidence that you've given just now, there is not a shred of truth in what you have said here.  This is a complete fabrication.

MR SIBAYA: The truth and lies do not come together.

MS QUNTA: Well they certainly live very well together within you Mr Sibaya.
	Mr Chairman I will finish, I have no further questions, but I would like to, and I will consult with my client and my learned friend, if we see we may want to submit particularly the bank evidence, but we don't foresee a situation where we will need the witness again, so I've completed my examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS QUNTA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibaya I would like to take your mind back to that night when you saw this white Audi.  There are two questions that I would like to ask.  The first relates to the number plate of that car.

MR SIBAYA: Which car?

CHAIRPERSON: The white Audi.

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that you saw the number plate when the brake lights of that car went on?

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And if the brake lights had not gone on it would have been impossible to see the number plate?

MR SIBAYA: Correct, because the lights were off.  I could not have seen the number plate.

CHAIRPERSON: That was the only opportunity you had of seeing the number plate?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: My next question relates to what you heard when these young people whom you say you saw there.  You mentioned a name of a person and you said that somebody spoke to this person and called him by his name and said "you have left your cap behind", is that correct?

MR SIBAYA: Correct, but I do not know who it is that called out the name because there were five of them.  I don't know who uttered the other person's name.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What was the name that he uttered?

MR SIBAYA: The one said to the other, "Madasa you've forgotten your cap in the other car".  However, I do not know who said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Was that the first time you heard this name Madasa?

MR SIBAYA: Where?

CHAIRPERSON: That night.

MR SIBAYA: It was the first time that night that I'd heard the name.

CHAIRPERSON: And am I to understand that this casual remark at midnight or after midnight, this casual remark of a name being mentioned stuck with you, the name stuck with you, is that what you are saying?

MR SIBAYA: Unless I misheard him but I think that is what he said.  They were speaking Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Is that your language?

MR SIBAYA: Correct, my mother tongue is Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Another incident which occurred and that relates to the piece of paper that you say you picked up.

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It was totally dark when you picked that paper up, is that so?

MR SIBAYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you read what was on it?

MR SIBAYA: I picked it up because I saw that it fell from the car.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is did you read it?

MR SIBAYA: I did read it.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR SIBAYA: I asked Mazibuko to stop his car so that we could look at the paper carefully.  We switched on the car light, the internal car light.  We realised that these people must have lost their way.  They wanted to get to Heidelberg.  We then decided at that point to go to the police station because we were under the impression that they had stolen the car.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had that one opportunity of reading that piece of paper which mentioned Heidelberg?

MR SIBAYA: It was not a big piece of paper.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Did you read it again at any other time?

MR SIBAYA: I explained to the police when I got to the police station ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: My question is did you read that document again?

MR SIBAYA: At the police station, I did read it at the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: You handed that document to the police after you read it?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was the last time you saw that document?

MR SIBAYA: The policeman took the paper, called the Sergeant, the Sergeant then said that if you are saying the car registration was XA ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no you've told us that, I am sorry to interrupt you, my question really said was that that was the last time you saw that document?

MR SIBAYA: That was the last time.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand your evidence the police tore up that document, that's correct?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And all this must have happened well in the early hours of the morning of the 31st?

MR SIBAYA: Was it not the 30th?

CHAIRPERSON: After midnight....

MR SIBAYA: Yes it was after midnight.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And how is it that you remember what was written on that piece of paper?

MR SIBAYA: Are you asking how I remember?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SIBAYA: That car XA, was not from Cape Town, it was a map written on the paper, directions, I then asked the police to go after them because they were going to harm some people.  This ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: My question is not that, my question really is how do you remember what was written on that document after all these months and years?

MR SIBAYA: I could tell you that in 1946 a sheep cost two shillings, I was a child then, but I remember it to this day.