Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about money.  I was questioned on the motive for attacking ANC members and I responded that I got my orders from the IFP, but I never referred to money.  I never received any monies from the IFP.

MR LOWIES: So this is completely wrong, the contents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is wrong.

MR LOWIES: And then, were you requested by anybody to state justification for regarding any acts or commissions, and more specifically the ones pertaining to Sebokeng, Zone 12, and in so doing stated the following
"Because I was doing a job which was under IFP instructions, the person who gave me instructions is an IFP member and I am a supporter"
Can you recall such a response to any person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was questioned on where I got the command from to shoot the people at Sebokeng and I responded that I had got that command from Mtwana Zulu, as  member of the IFP.

MR LOWIES: Now this is not here in this document, but I'll leave it at that.  Page 13, you were requested to state
"Did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise?"
And you say, on the face of this document you said:
"Yes, he gave me something, money or grocery" - sometimes.
I repeat the response, it may not be clear.
"Yes, he gave me sometimes or grocery"
Did you respond ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about money.  I never received money.

MR LOWIES: This is completely wrong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is not true.  I would never received any money from the IFP.

MR LOWIES: Could you just bear with me please, Chairman.
	Now the document goes further to state that Mtwana Zulu gave you orders from the Madala Hostel in Sebokeng and of importance here is the following; it appears to me then that the person who must have given you something like the money or the groceries was Mtwana Zulu.  My question to you is the following, did Mtwana Zulu ever ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, where do you get that from?

MR LOWIES: If you read it in conjunction with paragraph (c).

CHAIRPERSON: The man said that this is not his statement.

MR LOWIES: I'll rephrase the question.  Did Mr Zulu ever give you money or groceries?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know anything about money, Sir, I did mention that.  I did say I don't know anything about money.

MR LOWIES: No, but I'm talking about Mr Zulu now, Mr Mtwana Zulu.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do understand that.  I say I was not given any money to go and kill people.  I was doing everything in the name of the IFP, I was not doing it on my own.

MR LOWIES: Not for the purposes of killing anybody or for attacking people, just in general, did he Prince give you money ever?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Did he ever, for whatever purpose, give you groceries?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have said that, no.

MR LOWIES: Now Mr Nosenga, if I have to ask you this then, is it your version that this application which you didn't sign but is in your name, which was received by the TRC on the 10/5/97, is not yours?  It was not filed with your consent?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not sign this statement, I don't know.  I did not sign this statement.

MR LOWIES: I'd like you to turn to page 15 please.  You have another application ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before - when you were in prison were you ever assisted by anyone to apply for amnesty, that is apart from Mr Mongezi? - fellow prisoners or prison warders?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: So can we take it then that the only application, according to you and what you've said now, for amnesty was the one where Mongezi assisted you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, you see Mongezi did not come to represent me at the TRC, no.

MR LOWIES: We're not talking about that, we're talking about assisting you in completing a form, applying for amnesty, a form such as the one that has now been indicated to you by your legal ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just as a matter of interest, page 15 has been pointed out to him and that's not an application for amnesty, but anyway.

MR LOWIES: I'm sorry.  Could she just with your permission point out pages 11 to 13?

CHAIRPERSON: He said though that apart from Mr Mongezi no-one ...

MR LOWIES: I retract the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Do you know anything about the document on page 15?  Did you request anybody, firstly, to complete a document similar to this one?

MS TANZER: Chair, in fairness to the applicant, he can't really read.  I don't think he can read this document, so to ask him that question won't get the proper answer.

MR LOWIES: But he may still be able to tell us. - he may not be.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should ask him whether that's his signature.

MR LOWIES: Is it your signature that appears on page 15, at the bottom thereof?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Did you request anybody, whilst at the Leeuhof Prison, to apply for amnesty on your behalf - to apply for a release ...(intervention)

MS CAMBANIS: Indemnity.

MR LOWIES: ... indemnity.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall.

MR LOWIES: Now on page 16 there's a document which you have recognised yesterday or the day before, it's a letter written on your behalf you said.  On page 17 there's a signature, is it yours? - at the bottom thereof.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall whether it's myself who signed here.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand, Mr Nosenga, that you may have signed a number of documents and we do not expect you to tell us if you can't remember, what documents you signed, do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: But what we do expect you to tell us is whether the signature at page 17 is your signature.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's my name, that's Matanzima.  Matanzima is my name, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you sign there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it's possible I signed here because this is my name.

MR LAX: Could I just ask something, Mr Lowies?
	Can you remember whether before the Truth Commission even existed, during the time when the political parties were negotiating, whether you ever applied to some government department to be released from prison because what you were, what you had done was an act of a political nature?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think I applied for indemnity.

MR LAX: And do you remember writing a letter about what happened and what you had done in connection with that indemnity?  I'm not saying you personally wrote it, somebody must have written it for you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And what was the outcome of that application?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not get any response until my lawyer showed this to me.  There was no result.  I did not get any response.

MR LAX: You see the document on page 14 is actually a letter from the Office for Indemnity that was processing these applications, addressed to you while you were at Leeukop Prison and what it says basically is that your application can't be finalised and that it gives reasons why.  It was sent on the 11th of September 1996.  In fact it's dated the 27th of July '95, I beg your pardon, and it was purportedly received by someone who signed for it with your name, in August 1996, 19th of August 1996.
	So do you remember ever getting a letter saying look, your application for indemnity can't proceed just yet, but in due course something will happen?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not recall.

MR LAX: But you do remember writing some letter attached to the form about it, or having a letter written or a statement or something like that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, yes, I think I remember.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.