Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

DEON MARTIN: They did do so.

MR BRINK: Very well.  There was a child involved?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, I later heard that there was a child involved.

MR BRINK: Do you know who shot that child?

DEON MARTIN: Unfortunately not, we stood in the line, I don't know what the child's position ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: So it was just a random massacre of innocent people?

DEON MARTIN: No, the shooting incident involved shooting ANC members as per our instructions from General Oelofse.

MR BRINK: Yes, but a child was killed and that child couldn't have been a menace to society as far as you're concerned surely, it was a child?

DEON MARTIN: Well, we see this on a daily basis on TV, how 9 year olds run around with guns.  The child must have got in the way, I can't answer.

MR BRINK: Was the child not on the wall with the other people?

DEON MARTIN: No.

MR BRINK: Was this just random shooting or was it an execution style killing?

DEON MARTIN: No, our objective was to kill everybody.

MR BRINK: Whether they were women or children?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.  As Eugene Terreblanche said to us that if they can carry a gun we would shoot them.

MR BRINK: Now you know of course that money was stolen in this incident?

DEON MARTIN: No.

MR BRINK: You don't that?

DEON MARTIN: No, I don't know of any money that was taken.

MR BRINK: Did you not hear about that?

DEON MARTIN: During the trial a witness said that money was taken from him.  There were two witnesses but I don't know about any money that was taken.

MR BRINK: And tape cassettes and tape recorders and that sort of thing, you knew nothing about that?

DEON MARTIN: I later came to hear of it, after the incident when we had been arrested.

MR BRINK: And clothing stolen, do you know anything about that?

DEON MARTIN: I didn't steal any clothes.

MR BRINK: No, I don't know whether you did but surely you must have knowledge?  You must have discussed afterwards, R100 here and tape cassettes and clothing and - surely?

DEON MARTIN: No.  I heard about it for the first time in prison.

MR BRINK: Who discussed that with you?

DEON MARTIN: The co-accused.

MR BRINK: Can you name then?

DEON MARTIN: No, unfortunately I'm not quite certain.  Kallie Meiring had the equipment, Matthews had the cassettes and about the leather jacket and the money I can't give you an answer.

MR BRINK: You see, I'm going to suggest to you and argue before the Committee that this was a mindless brutal racist murder without any genuine political objective.

DEON MARTIN: I don't agree.  Our objective on that evening was to go out and create chaos.  This would have occurred on a nationwide basis and the objective was to secure the Boerestaat for the Boerevolk.

DEON MARTIN: Did you ever think to make enquiries from Mr Kloppers whether any other Generals in the organisation or indeed the leader, Mr Eugene Terreblanche had given orders in this regard to Oelofse?

DEON MARTIN: Terreblanche visited us in Diepkloof and he said that if everybody had acted countrywide as we had acted on that night, we wouldn't be sitting in jail on that day.

MR BRINK: But of course that would have been nonsense Mr Martin surely, because we know that even if you take Southern Natal, not the whole of Natal, Southern Natal with 150 or 200 people, surely that sort of number of people couldn't ...[indistinct] revolution?

DEON MARTIN: I believe that if you act in small groups in various towns it might very well happen.

MR MALAN: Mr Martin, the first question from Mr Brink was whether you ever asked Phil Kloppers whether or why the other leaders had not acted and your answer to that was that Terreblanche had said to you in Diepkloof, that if everybody in the country had acted that way you wouldn't be in prison, is that correct, is that your answer?

DEON MARTIN: No, then I would like to rectify that.  I heard from General Oelofse myself that he was angry at his other commanders for not acting in a similar fashion.  Phil Kloppers and I visited Oelofse together when we asked the question what had happened, that nothing else had happened.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us when Mr Kloppers asked this question?

DEON MARTIN: I beg your pardon?

MR MALAN: Can you tell us when you and Mr Kloppers asked General Oelofse this question?

DEON MARTIN: It was in the afternoon at approximately 3 to 4 o'clock.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR BRINK: You see, you held a fairly senior position in the AWB at that time, is that correct?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR BRINK: You must have been very concerned about the orders which Kloppers was giving you?

DEON MARTIN: No, I believed that Mr Kloppers received the orders from the Generals and staff and that we would initiate the revolution.

MR BRINK: And you made no further enquiry?

DEON MARTIN: No, because we went out ourselves on that evening and it was decided as per instructions of the Generals and staff that the revolution would begin.  We departed and went out and did the necessary.

MR BRINK: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

ADV BOSMAN: You said Mr Martin, that you had suggested that the squatter camps be searched, what did you have in mind?

DEON MARTIN: We had to identify squatter camps and kill people there.

ADV BOSMAN: So therefore by searching you meant to identify people?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, that's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: ...[inaudible] mention amongst yourselves that there was a child in the group?

DEON MARTIN: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you at that point aware of the child?

DEON MARTIN: No, I was not aware of the child.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you notice any women?

DEON MARTIN: I heard subsequently that there had been women and two other little ones which I had not noticed.  I must mention that it was very dark that night.

ADV BOSMAN: Would it have been a factor of consideration to you had seen women and children?

DEON MARTIN: Well seeing as the revolution had broken out, it wouldn't have been a factor.

ADV BOSMAN: Just one further question.  You've said that you also had to search for illegal weapons and ammunition with a dual purpose, firstly to use the weapons and secondly to destroy these people.   Regarding this first objective, why did you not take that a little bit further?

DEON MARTIN: The AWB did not have weapons and ammunition ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: One moment, I think you're misunderstanding my question.  You've said that you had a dual purpose in setting up the roadblock, firstly you had to search for weapons and ammunition - I understand that you wanted to use those items, but my question is, why didn't you continue the roadblock further in order to get more weapons and ammunition, why did you decide on this specific group?

DEON MARTIN: We pulled over a number of vehicles but this specific group were members of the ANC and therefore complied with our specifications for a target as per our instructions.

ADV BOSMAN: But the point was that they didn't have any arms and ammunition with them.

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: So what happened to the first part of the purpose?

DEON MARTIN: We tried to achieve the first part of our objective and we couldn't and that is why we went over to the second part.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you perhaps indicate how long it took from when you began pulling over vehicles until the shooting?

DEON MARTIN: I would have to estimate, it would be about an hour and a half to two hours.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: I'll put my questions to you in English.  You mentioned that after this whole massacre you went back to collect the shells in order to destroy whatever evidence there was, why was it necessary for you to destroy the evidence?

DEON MARTIN: We did not want to draw attention to a specific group, it was just a handful of us and that is why I believe it was necessary to destroy evidence.