Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nieuwoudt is entitled to a hearing here without  interruption or intimidation.  If this continues I will have no option but to ask that the hall be cleared.

ADV SANDI: Let's work together - let us please co-operate, this is a very difficult job.  Each person that comes before the Commission to testify must be given a chance to testify so that at the end we can conclude the matter accordingly.  I hope that we will not have to ask you again for order.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I just want to record also that I reserve my rights at this stage just in light of what has happened now, that there seems to be a fair amount of hostility - I reserve my rights.  At this stage I wish to carry on and I would like the public to hear what Mr Nieuwoudt says but I would reserve any rights I might have in this regard, should it become impossible for us to feel that we can conduct our case in such a way that justice can not only be done but also be seen to be done.
	I call Mr Nieuwoudt.  Mr Nieuwoudt could I please swear - could you please stand.

ADV DE JAGER: Full names?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: (sworn states)

MR BOOYENS: Mr Nieuwoudt on the first page, that is page 31 of the Annexure A, you have stated your personal particulars, are they correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Up to the middle of page 32, you give a history of your time in the police force?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: After that, you give a personal overview starting on page 32, you've also set out in the second paragraph that you noticed in your opinion, that there were cultural differences between the different cultural groups.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Paragraph 4 you state your belief at that stage - your convictions, we're speaking about the '80's and prior to that and also the period after that.  You were of the opinion that the continued existence of the White and Black consciousness were not possible alongside one another.  You also made the statement that you acted bona fide in all cases.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You also made the statement on page 6 - page 34, paragraph 6 that the church of which you were a member also decided at synod level, that the policy of separate development as it was termed by the Government of the day could be justified in terms of the Bible.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Your conditioning and influencing started when you were very young?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: If we can turn to paragraph 8, the security forces and the National Party leadership figures who repeatedly told you the revolutionary basis of the liberation movements.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: After that in paragraph 9, you refer to the so-called counter-revolutionary philosophy.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I think it may be essential considering that you are relying on Annexures here, is that it may take some but I think it is essential for you to explain how this document, Annexures 1 and 2 and these are the documents which can be found on pages 59 and 64 of the documentation.  The first on page 59 then, it's a document dated 10 April 1986 - it's some time after the previous dates.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: But from your experience then and what you'd known before that, this circular directed to members of the State Security Council, it was a confidential document, it concerned UBS plans in the revolutionary war.  Was that a philosophy which was given through prior to that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on Mr Booyens, I don't know if your copy on page ....[inaudible]

MR BOOYENS: Yes, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You've got a blank on page 59 too.

MR BOOYENS: I've got a blank Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it of any importance what's below there, we get the sense of the documents in the rest of it.  Your client is shaking his head in agreement.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, no, that is indeed correct Mr Chairman, I've seen the full one on a previous occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: The irrelevant sections which you've referred to in terms of your statements can be found on page 60, paragraph 5, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Namely the strategy which was being finalised which had to be put into effect.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And the reporting back of the GBS's in paragraph 7, that is referred to?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: The document which starts on page 62, is this an Annexure to the Secretariat of the State Security Council's document?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Here and more specifically on page 63, if you could just for reference sake, take note that on page 62 at the top it is stated: "Objective Tasks, Action, Responsible Department" and so forth.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You have referred specifically to the objective mentioned on page 63 - it should be animus leaders, to neutralise and to destroy their influence.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And their task which is stipulated clearly in the column is that their leaders should be identified and the areas of influence determined and that they should be neutralised or eliminated.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Then the actions referred to - misleading operations which is more commonly know as misinformation, it's psychological warfare,  compensation for information that was the system put into effect, exploitation of disputes if the ANC or PAC were disputing something which had to be exploited for propaganda services.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Identification through GIK actions, that's an action committee that launched these actions, it was a branch of the GBS.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: What are quell actions referred to there.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Those are problematic areas.

MR BOOYENS: What are grab operations?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The point referred to concerns problems where people had to be arrested or removed

MR BOOYENS: No English translation.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Then the following one was a task used to persuade people.

MR BOOYENS: In other words to change their views.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: To change their views and their ideologies.

MR BOOYENS: And then legal action, we all understand what is meant by that.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What is interesting are the actions described here, neutralisation or elimination actions.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: These are neutralisation actions Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: To you what does the word eliminate mean?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It's means the killing of people Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Especially if one speaks about a person to be eliminated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You furthermore refer also to the document which starts on page 64 ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Can you just wait a moment please?  On page 63 right at the bottom on the right hand side, there's a comment: "Liaison or linking with the VH's must be avoided".  What are they referring to, what must be avoided?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is the security forces and any link with them - with the VM's.

ADV DE JAGER: What was the intention in using those words?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In other words, they should be covert operations.