Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

JOHN JWAYI: I heard them speak on TV, but when they were appearing in that hearing I was not present, because of the reasons I gave.

MR VISSER: All right, let me ask you this.  Were you aware before you came to give evidence what they said about what happened there at Fountain Street in Bloemfontein, regarding this group of people who wanted to leave the country?  Did you know what they said?

JOHN JWAYI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And was what they said, correct in your view?

JOHN JWAYI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, I think we should place on record that Mr Memani has now joined us.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, may I also be told what is happening because the matter was adjourned for two hours at twenty five past eleven and the time is now 25 past eleven, and we find proceedings in progress?

CHAIRPERSON: It is later than twenty five past eleven, Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: I beg your pardon.  Well, it is only twenty eight minutes past, according to my watch.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Did you know a person whose name was George Mmusi?

JOHN JWAYI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did George Mmusi have anything to do with the fact that you were leaving the country in April of 1985?

JOHN JWAYI: I don't believe so.  What I know is that we were hiding at his place.

MR VISSER: Now, let's just get to your evidence about how you were assaulted.  If I understand you correctly, you said that you saw Mr Motsamai and Mr Ngo together with members of the Security Police in a guard of honour, is that what you said?

JOHN JWAYI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you were then asked who assaulted you, and your reply if I have my note correct, is that Killian assaulted me more than the other policemen, is that what you said?

JOHN JWAYI: I don't know the spelling, but I know him as Killian.  I just wanted to correct that first.  Secondly is that he is the one who was responsible for my assault.

MR VISSER: I see, now you have just said something slightly different, with respect.
	Was he the only one that assaulted you?

JOHN JWAYI: That is not correct.

MR VISSER: Who, each and every person who assaulted you, could you give us the name of each and every person who assaulted you in April 1985 at Fountain Street, Bloemfontein?

JOHN JWAYI: I spoke of Killian, then I spoke of Kopi.  Kopi assaulted me on the second day.  What I explained is that when we were assaulted as they were using the tube, you would not see who took part or who were present but you would feel that, you will make a sense that people who are assaulting you is not only one person, but many people.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, will you just forgive me for a moment, I have a base in my earphone.  Mr Interpreter can you just say something please?

JOHN JWAYI: Because we were blindfolded, you would not know how many people took part in your assault.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Can you tell this Committee, in that building where precisely were you when you were assaulted by either Kopi or by Killian or any other person?  Was it in the kitchen, was it in the passage or was it in an office or was it in some other place?

JOHN JWAYI: Killian assaulted me in his own office and Kopi assaulted me in the passage just next to the kitchen.

MR VISSER: And you also told the Committee please stop me if I am wrong, that Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai were in the kitchen, is that what you said?

JOHN JWAYI: I didn't say that.

MR VISSER: You didn't say that?

JOHN JWAYI: I didn't say that.

MR VISSER: I think the interpreter is saying I didn't say that.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Did Mr Motsamai assault you in any way?

JOHN JWAYI: On that day, he didn't assault me.

MR VISSER: Mr Jwayi, with all due respect to you, I am talking about the whole incident of April 1985.  I am not talking about that day.  I am asking you did Mr Motsamai on that occasion when you were arrested with 18 or 19 or 25 or 27 other people, I don't know how many, assault you, that is the question?

JOHN JWAYI: I said he did not assault me.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And Mr Ngo?

JOHN JWAYI: He did not assault me also.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Will you please think back if you will, and tell the Committee exactly in what way you were assaulted throughout that whole period, if you can remember that?  What did they do to you?

JOHN JWAYI: They did many things.  One thing which I may firstly assault is they slapped me, then if you don't cooperate with them, they would kick you.
	If you are adamant, they would press you against the floor, then they would handcuff you, then they would blindfold you with that tube.  Then again, they would continue with the kicks and being assaulted with different assortments.  There is a certain black plastic which they would put on your neck, you would jump over and then you would be kicked.  I would say you would be suffocated when they used that plastic.
	Those are the assortments they used in the assault.

MR VISSER: If somebody were to say that you were made to do exercises, would that be wrong?

JOHN JWAYI: I don't remember that somebody would make you do exercises without to do so, I would take that as part of torture.

MR VISSER: But were you compelled to do exercises, that is really the question?

JOHN JWAYI: I explained that they did those things without my permission.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, were you asked to do push ups, so-called push ups?

JOHN JWAYI: They would instruct you, not request you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, did they instruct you to do push ups?

JOHN JWAYI: I would say it was an instruction which was forceful.

MR VISSER: You see, because this is where I was coming to.  Who instructed you, forced you, if you will, to do push ups?

JOHN JWAYI: That is Killian.

MR VISSER: Quite sure of that?

JOHN JWAYI: I spoke that Killian was the one who assaulted me more than any other person.

MR VISSER: That is why I am asking you, who all instructed you, forced you to do push ups?  Can't you remember?

JOHN JWAYI: I said it is Killian.

CHAIRPERSON: He answered your question and he said it was Killian.  How can you then say to him can't you remember.

MR VISSER: With respect Mr Chairman, he added a little tail to it and he said Killian was the one who did it more than others, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: He said I told you Killian was the one who assaulted me more than others.  Carry on.

MR VISSER: Were you forced to do any other form of physical exercise, than push ups?

JOHN JWAYI: I said they would put me on a black plastic, then you would be handcuffed at the back, then you are forced to jump and you would be kicked.

MR VISSER: If anybody said that you were forced to do frog jumps, would that be wrong?

JOHN JWAYI: Yes, they forced me to do frog jumps without my permission.

MR VISSER: You know Mr Jwayi, I am going to argue to this Committee that I find it very strange that you didn't tell the Committee any of this until you were prompted in cross-examination.
	Do you have any explanation for the fact that you just didn't tell the Committee this in the first place?

JOHN JWAYI: I wouldn't regard them exercises because I didn't want to do those things, I would regard them as torture.

MR VISSER: But so much the more, why didn't you tell the Committee that you were not only slapped and kicked and blindfolded with a rubber tube, you were also forced, tortured by being forced to do frog jumps and push ups, why didn't you tell us that?

JOHN JWAYI: I was not asked to say that.

MR VISSER: Yes, I am going to suggest to you the reason why you didn't say that, it is because it didn't happen.  It never happened, you were never assaulted, you were never forced to do anything.

JOHN JWAYI: The most important thing is about time, you would not answer for something you were not asked.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You were asked whether you were assaulted Mr Jwayi, let's leave it at that.