Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-16

MR LAX: The question is
"Your justification regarding such acts, omissions or offences as acts, omissions or offences associated with the political objective."
And the answer then goes on to say:
"Justification, my organisation was under threat and intimidation.  So I was the next victim to be attacked as the result, already three of my family were burnt in their shack."
Do you disagree with that answer?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I think this person did not put it to me properly.  What I meant was that PAC members were terrorised and they were being killed.  That is why I believe my action had political objectives.

MR LAX: Well, how would he have known about your family and the fact that your family was burnt and so on, as he has written it here, if you didn't tell him those facts?  How would he have known to write it here if you didn't tell him those words?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: When you speak to a person or when you tell somebody a story, you give him all the facts and after that he can then start following the questions and responding to them accordingly.  The inclusion of my family is just because they were also affected when the attack on PAC members was carried out.

MR LAX: But you see, your family were not PAC members.  You've told us that already.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.  I do not know whether they were supporters, but they were not card carrying members of the PAC.

MR LAX: So you didn't know whether you were going to be next or not?  You don't know how that got written there, but that's not what you intended to say?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I do not understand the question.

MR LAX: I'm asking you whether you know how these words that says you were next, you were the next victim, you don't know how those words came to be there?  You were the next victim.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I think that from what he surmised, he might have thought that I might have been the next victim.

MR LAX: But you've told us that you were the victim, you were the intended victim.  You were the person they were looking for to kill, and you would have told him that surely?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What is unfortunately is that what I've told the Committee is what I know, that is all that I know.

MR LAX: Now, when did you speak to Mandla?  When was that?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: If I'm not mistaken, it was in 1991.  I think it might have been early in 1992, although I cannot remember the date.

MR LAX: Well, let me help you try and remember.  You joined the task force in early 1991, paragraph 5 on 2 of your affidavit.  How soon after joining the task force did you go to Umtata for training?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I joined the task force in 1991.  I was in the task force for about 4 months.

MR LAX: And then you went for training?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I spent 4 months at Umtata.

MR LAX: So, did you go for training early in 1991 when you joined the task force?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR LAX: So, you would have finished your training before the middle of that year?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR LAX: And by the middle of 1991 you were back in Emzinoni?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: Well, if you look at paragraph 7 of your affidavit, you did your basic training, you finished it, you spent a month at Efolweni and then you went back to Emzinoni?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: ...[no English translation]

MR LAX: So, we can safely say that by the middle of 1991 you were back in Emzinoni?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR LAX: And that's when you would have become aware of all this friction that was going on in the township, and now as a member of the task force, it was your duty to do something about it, so you then contact Mandla, correct?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR LAX: So, the question is, it seemed to me at any rate, that you probably contacted Mandla somewhere in the second half of 1991?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Although I do not remember the date, but it was before this incident occurred.

MR LAX: Well, the question I'm trying to get from you is how long before this incident?  That's really the main issue I'm pushing at, and based on your previous evidence, when you became aware of the friction you wanted to do something about it.  And so common sense says that that would have been somewhere in the second half of 1991, closer to the middle of that second half than anywhere else.  You with me?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Although I get your question, but I think there are bits I do not understand.

MR LAX: In any event, you would have spoken to Mandla, even on your own version, by early 1992, correct?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I can say is that I was in contact with Mandla because he was my commander.

MR LAX: Your instructions were to identify these ring leaders and to stop them?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Why did you wait until October before starting to do anything about stopping them?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I can tell the Committee is that at that time I tried to contact Mandla to explain everything that was happening in the township.  After doing that, he promised - Mandla promised to give me or supply me with a weapon.

MR LAX: Carry on.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Will you please repeat the question?  I think I've stopped for quite a while.

MR LAX: Well, I'm trying to understand why you took so long from the beginning of the year till October to do something about stopping these people who, on your evidence, were killing your comrades, they were chasing them out of the township, they were burning their houses down.  It took you 10 months to do something about it.  Why?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: At the time I tried to contact Mandla, as well as the director, but I was unsuccessful in contacting the director.

MR LAX: But you see, on your evidence you'd already contacted Mandla, early 1992 you contacted him.  I would say it was probably a bit earlier than that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it was early 1992.  It's still that 10 months that nothing happened.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: There's something I don't understand.

MR LAX: What don't you understand?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: The way you put your question, I do not understand.

MR LAX: Well, you're now explaining the reason why there was a 10 month delay, because you couldn't get hold of Mandla, but you've already told us you had got hold of him.  You got hold of him at the beginning of 1992.  Do you understand?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Do you mean from 1991?

MR LAX: You have testified to us that you spoke to Mandla about this problem and got your orders from him in early 1992.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is so.

MR LAX: Now, I'm saying please explain why it took you from early 1992 till October 1992, the middle of October 1992 to begin to do anything about the problem in terms of stopping these people?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: At that time I was busy with meetings and workshops and other things.  That is why a long time elapsed.

MR LAX: So, it clearly wasn't your main priority to stop these people?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I say, I was busy with meetings.  We were discussing such issues about what to do.

MR LAX: You see, the point I'm really building up to is, if there was so much violence in the area and your comrades were under such an amount of difficulty and attack, as a task force it was your duty to do something about that, not to spend your time in workshops and meetings, isn't that so?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I think is that our duty was to protect, but because of the situation things did not go according to plan in the township.  There were police in the township and there were other problems.