Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR MAPOMA: What complaints were they that Mr JJ Mabena gave to you of Advice Gwala?

J A MKHWANAZI: He told me that Advice Gwala was part and parcel of the Sasol Management dealing with the Cosatu members of the Sasol employees killing some of the Cosatu members at the mine during stay-aways and that he was organising the youth in the township, the youth that became known as the Mbalendle Cultural Youth whose aim it was to oppose the ANC Youth League and that he had a hand with the Black Chains.

MR MAPOMA: Now this discussion, did it take place before or after the assassination of Mr Gwala?

J A MKHWANAZI: We discussed this before Mr Gwala was assassinated.

MR MAPOMA: Then did you not take any decision about what must be done about Mr Advice Gwala?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, I did not.

MR MAPOMA: I'm asking this question Mr Mkhwanazi, because the mother of Advice Gwala says or in fact will say when she gives evidence, that Mr Gushu said in court that he killed Advice Gwala on the instructions of Mr JJ Mabena, do you have any knowledge about that?

MR BLACK: That's ...[indistinct]  Whatever she may or may not have heard, but that's quite clearly incorrect.  Gushu at no stage said that he killed Mr Gwala on the instructions of Mr Mabena.

ADV SANDI: Isn't Mr Mapoma referring to the evidence in court?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, evidence in the criminal trial, I'm sorry.

MR BLACK: I beg your pardon I misunderstood.

MR MAPOMA: If I may just repeat this.  What the mother of Advice says is that Gushu said in the criminal court he killed Advice on the instructions of Mr JJ Mabena.  Now what I want to know from you, do you know of any involvement of Mr Mabena in the killing of Advice  Gwala?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, there is nothing that I know except that he briefed me about Mr Gwala and nothing beyond that.

MR MAPOMA: Had you knew of his involvement, would you be ready to tell the Committee?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I would.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, up until the time that you were granted the amnesty in 1993, how easy was it for you to move around?

J A MKHWANAZI: It was not as easy because the Security Forces had deployed Askaris around and these Askari members are people with whom we trained, they knew me.  They could easily identify me, pinpoint me, shoot me or get me arrested.  That was after the ANC was unbanned.

MR PATEL: Your initial stay in Piet Retief when you just arrived in the country, was that residence intended to be permanent.

J A MKHWANAZI: No, no.

MR PATEL: In other words you understood it to be a temporary placement?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR PATEL: It's been put to you that Mr Mndebele laid a charge or a complaint against Mr Ngwenya the day before he was killed, when was the decision taken or rather how long before he was killed was the decision taken to assassinate Mr Ngwenya?

J A MKHWANAZI: I do not remember exactly but I think it must have been a month.

MR PATEL: Sorry, I didn't get that.
	Insofar as the might be relevant, this question of support for Mr Gushu at his criminal ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It's not relevant.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mkhwanazi, it was asked of you whether you received any salary or any compensation and your answer was: "No", how did you survive during this fairly long period that you were working underground?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was staying with Mr Mndebele.  That is one person who made it easy for me to survive.

ADV BOSMAN: And then you did say that it was not easy for you to move around during this period, how did you sort of communicate with Mr Gushu during this time?  In what manner did you communicate?

J A MKHWANAZI: If Mr Gushu was in Secunda, I would telephone Mr JJ Mabena's office and indicate to him that I would like to be connected to Mr Gushu and we would then decide where to meet personally and that would be where we would discuss issues.

ADV BOSMAN: How often did these communications take place?

J A MKHWANAZI: We were not communicating frequently, maybe we would meet once in a month's time or twice in two month's time or twice in one month's time.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ever during this time feel that you reason to limit Mr Gushu's very wide mandate?

J A MKHWANAZI: At the time the violent situation was terrible and therefore I would not have reduced the mandate.  I would only do that if the violence had subsided but that was not the case.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mndebele if I remember correctly, said that he knew that the issue of robbery fell outside the general ANC policy at national level, were you also aware of that?

J A MKHWANAZI: I know that that is not the policy of the ANC but the situation under which we lived at the time was that we had no alternative.

ADV BOSMAN: That evidence was also given by Mr Gushu, but did you discuss this policy with Mr Gushu at all, did you say to him: "This is a general ANC policy but under the circumstances we are not going to follow it, we have to take emergency sort of steps"?

J A MKHWANAZI: The decisions that we took at the time were inspired by the circumstances and therefore Mzwandile took such decisions because he knew that we didn't have any other alternative.

ADV BOSMAN: ...[inaudible] Mr Mkhwanazi, I don't think you really followed my question.  What I really wanted to know is, did you make Mr Gushu aware that you were actually him an instruction which goes outside the policy of the ANC at national level?

J A MKHWANAZI: The instruction that I gave was that he should form and arm the self-defence units.  It was therefore up to him to take the necessary steps as to how the self-defence units should be armed and that's what decision he took, armed robbery.

ADV BOSMAN: No, that I follow.  I will leave it at that.  Just one more question and it's just a question of clarification.  The evidence has been that you were a three-man committee of which Mr John Mndebele was one and I, the evidence was that you were a three-man committee that took the decision about the elimination of Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane and Mr Mndebele was one of the members and yet you said Mr Mndebele could not possibly have influenced this committee.  If you could just explain that because I find it contrary to logic.

J A MKHWANAZI: There were four of us in the Committee and Mr Mndebele was one of the members.  What I was saying, they had actually asked me, they indicated that Mr Mndebele took the decision because it was a personal vendetta.
	What I was saying was that it was not possible for Mr Mndebele to influence a decision in a committee of four members because there were many other people here at Ermelo who knew exactly what was happening.  He could not have influenced us to kill Chris because of his own personal vendetta.  These other people here at Ermelo knew exactly what situation or atmosphere prevailed here.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you.  Thank you Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mkhwanazi, this Special Committee, did it have a chairman?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, it didn't have a chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Did it have a co-ordinator of some kind?  How would you call meetings?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, we did not have, but when we needed to convene meetings we would communicate amongst ourselves that we should convene a meeting.  That is how we would discuss the issues.

ADV SANDI: If you were to rank members of this Special Committee in terms of their influence, who would you say was the most influential member of the committee?

J A MKHWANAZI: Every member played almost the same role, so it is very difficult for me to pinpoint or differentiate as to who played the most important role.

ADV SANDI: This meeting you had with Mr Hani, did you tell him about this Special Committee?