Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

CHAIRPERSON: No, but the point is - you put it to him that he made an amendment, it doesn't matter how he made that amendment, when he saw Exhibit A.
	And what my colleague is saying to you is that the contents thereof, only came to his attention this morning?

MS VAN DER WALT: Well, then I am not entirely sure of this, because his Advocate had it before he testified.

CHAIRPERSON: We have also experienced similar problems, but that was his evidence.

ADV SANDI: Perhaps we can find out from him when he got hold of this.  Mr Gushu, when did you get this Annexure A?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I got it when I was asked if I know about this, and then I requested a moment to look at it.  I got it this morning.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, when you began to give evidence yesterday, you testified that you and Mr Hlaza went to Mr Msibi's liquor store, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also testified that when Mr Msibi was shot, Hlaza went to fetch the money and you left?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I said I shot Hlaza, I shot Msibi, I was with Hlaza.  I then said to Hlaza he must go and get the till.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you testified, didn't your Advocate tell you hold on a minute, I have a problem here, were you in the liquor store or not and your Advocate was already in possession of Exhibit A.  Didn't he tell you, listen you are going to pick up problems under cross-examination because in Exhibit A, it says that you took the money?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: My problem is that my Attorney was not there when I shot Msibi.  I am the one who knows what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt, I think that it is very clear that neither of the statements was studied with the witness as it should have been studied.
	I don't think that we can actually put the blame on him for this.  
	Is this a convenient time for you to adjourn?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (s.u.o)

MS VAN DER WALT: (cont)
	Sir this error which you have indicated in paragraph 16, I went into the bottle store business to see if there were any arms.  Who made that error?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It must have been a mistake made whilst I was talking to the Attorney, because the statement was made when I was speaking to the Attorney, and the Attorney was writing down for me.

MS VAN DER WALT: Which Attorney is this?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Modise Mohammed's assistant.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is the name of the assistant?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I know his surname, Modise.  I don't know his first name.

MS VAN DER WALT: So therefore it was not a white person, it was a person who could speak your own language, whether it be Xhosa or Zulu?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It was a black person.  I am Xhosa, the person is Zulu, it is not the same thing.  Perhaps there was a slight misunderstanding in that sense.

ADV SANDI: Let's get some clarity on this.  Mr Gushu, you say this person was Zulu speaking, what do you mean?  Do you mean he was addressing you in Zulu?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is so, he was addressing me in Zulu because he is from Gauteng Province.  I am a Xhosa speaking person, I am not fluent in Zulu.

MS VAN DER WALT: You don't have a problem with Zulu, because you spoke Zulu yesterday, some members of the audience were saying he is speaking Zulu?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I am Xhosa, I speak Xhosa.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to know from you exactly what the order was which Hlaza gave to you with regard to Mr Msibi?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The instruction was that I should kill Msibi.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that all?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, also that I should form Self Defence Units in Piet Retief.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that all?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: According to my knowledge, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you certain?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I am certain.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well.  I want to take you to paragraph 15 on page 37.  Do you have that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: My instructions were to eliminate Msibi and disarm him as he was in possession of and had access to a source of arms and ammunition.  What do you say about that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: When I went to kill Msibi, that is one and the same thing.  To be able to get arms as well.  But the problem is that after I shot him, it would have been difficult to find out whether there were firearms in the store or in his car, because I had already shot.  Because then the police were going to appear at any moment.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, I expressly asked you what your order was.  You said that you had to go and kill Mr Msibi, that you had to establish Self Defence Units.  I asked you whether that was all and then you said yes.  I asked you whether or not you were certain and you answered that you were certain.
	You cannot tell this Honourable Committee now, that to kill somebody and to disarm somebody, would be one and the same thing?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Mr Chairperson, as Ali worked with the Boers and he was also a Mayor, a member of Inkatha, anything that would allow the Self Defence Unit to operate as smoothly as possible, I had to do.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why didn't you just say that when it is asked of you and once again put to you and once again an attempt has been made to achieve certainty regarding this, why didn't you just say that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: What did I not say?

MS VAN DER WALT: I asked you what your order was and you never said that you had to obtain weapons for the Self Defence Units of Hlaza.  Hlaza never gave you that kind of instruction according to you?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, if we are going to carry on, he clearly said he had to establish a Self Defence Unit, my learned friend was here yesterday.  The establishment of the Self Defence Unit has to function as a Self Defence Unit had to function.  His answer is he had to do everything possible to ensure that the SDU's functioned.
	Now, we are going in circles with respect Mr Chairman, that is my objection.

MS VAN DER WALT: May I continue?  Thank you.  You see sir, that is also not what you have said in paragraph 15.  You said that your instructions were to take the weapons of Mr Msibi, because he had a lot of weapons.  Can you see that there?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I see it.  To me, that is all the same thing.  If I had killed Msibi and there were chances to do everything that I wanted to do, I would have done it.

MS VAN DER WALT: But that was not the order which you received from Mr Hlaza?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It was.

MS VAN DER WALT: But that is not what you have just said a few moments ago?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was trying to explain the way I understand the struggle, I don't know whether according to your understanding of the struggle, I don't know how that works, but I was explaining how I perceived and understood the struggle.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am asking you once more, what was the order which you received from Mr Hlaza?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That I must kill Msibi and to train Self Defence Unit members.  Therefore, if I trained Self Defence Units, it was my job to look for firearms.
	According to the information that I got that he had weapons  and was assisted by the police.  For the Self Defence Units to operate, I had to get firearms, it is part of the whole thing according to the amnesty application I am here about.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you see sir, that you are placing the error which you indicated in paragraph 16, that you went into the liquor store to look for weapons, you are placing that error on the shoulders of your Attorney, but according to what you are saying now, and what appears in paragraph 15, that was your exact instruction to take the arms off Mr Msibi, but that is not what you are doing?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Mr Chairperson, I want you to be clear, I did all this.  When I was writing the statement, I was writing the statement in Xhosa.   My representative had to then translate and sort it out.
	There can be such mistakes.  He was not Xhosa and I wrote my statement in Xhosa.