Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

GEN COMMANDS: , such as those contained in the encoded message of the 25th of March 1986 were sometimes, via the Divisional Commissioner or the Western Province JMC, fed back to the S-JMC for consideration and execution.
 14. As far as my role as the secretary of the S-JMC is concerned, vis a vis the Crossroads Committee and the Committee of Fathers I cannot recall that I ever played a role in this respect.  
 Without referring to specific events or documents in which my involvement would be raised I am not able to provide any information or comment on this point.  The only reference to the Fathers in the documents submitted to me appear in document relating to the Western Province JMC, with which I was not involved, and in document H, paragraph 7 which, to the best of my knowledge, was drafted on the basis of document of the Western Province JMC 22/7/3/2 of January 1986.
 15. The nature of the information which I dealt with in my abovementioned capacity has already been dealt with above.
 16. I have no personal knowledge of the events which contributed to the violence in KTC and vicinity.  My knowledge of the events is restricted to reports which I received regarding any incidents or operations in my capacity as the commanding officer of the S-JMC's operational room.  The records of reports so received are, as far as I know, already in the possession of the Commission".
I thank you.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Colonel.  Now before I go into the substance of what is contained in your statement let me just get a few personal details about you.  Are you still a serving member of the Police Force?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: You are retired?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: At the time of your retirement what rank did you hold?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I was a Colonel when I retired Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: You were a Colonel.  And at the time that you came to Cape Town what rank did you hold?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I served most of the time in the Peninsula Sir, all the time.

MR NTSEBEZA: In Cape Town?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: In 1985 when you became - when did you become secretary of the S-JMC?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: If I can recall Sir approximately '84.

MR NTSEBEZA: Approximately '84.  And where were you based, where was your office?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: At Thomas Boydell Building at the Divisional Headquarters.

MR NTSEBEZA: In Cape Town?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: When did you become involved with issues of the area that is now under consideration, in other words KTC, Nyanga, Guguletu and all these places, when did you become in...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I was involved as the secretary of the S-JMC at the time when these things happened.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  And you know the previous witness Mr Schelhase?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I know him.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you know him at the time?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I knew him at the time.

MR NTSEBEZA: And is it fair to say that you exchanged views about the situation because of the nature of your work?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Pardon?

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you exchange reports and views about the situation in this area at that time?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Sir, not so much at my level.  But what I could gather is that he mainly liaised with a level at the Western Province JMC, not so much at my level.  We very seldom discussed these issues.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now when you say not so much, what would you say was the frequency with which when you met you discussed issues pertaining to the security situation in the area?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: It might have been once in six months Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Once in six months.  Would you have discussed with him a strategy with which the unrest situation in Khayalitsha, in KTC etc was to be approached, particularly in 1985?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you - are you saying you did not discuss ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No I did not discuss any strategy with anybody above my level.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would you then, if - we got an impression that in 1985 when you came in and you said to him there was to be a strategy with which the violence and the unrest situation should be approached, it would be a wrong impression that we got from what he said to us?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I never discussed any strategy with Mr Schelhase's level, but what I was trying to say was that my role as the secretary of the S-JMC was to receive their minutes from their level.  But now they were one level up and it was not always their practice to give me copies of their meetings.  I am helping you in trying to understand what my level was.

MR NTSEBEZA: Let's try and understand that.  Now you state your function as being one to receive the minutes of the JMC meetings?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes, the Mini-JMCs and the local management system, that is two levels down, below me.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: And from time-to-time I would receive a document from the JMC, the Western Province JMC.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is it.  So there were occasions when you were able to receive documents from the Western Province JMC?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: That would be documents at the level at which you say Mr Schelhase operated?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you say your task would be to identify issues in the documents from the local levels and ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Local levels, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, how would you deal with those issues, what sort of issues would be brought to you and how would you deal with them?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: The JMC was structured, as we now know, to identify the problems in the community as to see that these issues in the community have been addressed properly so that you have a happy and a contented community, that was the main issue.  That was the main purpose of this thing.
 If I may give you an instance.  In Hout Bay they had people staying in a hostel from a factory, but that was a local management system at Hout Bay, and the people who stayed there they didn't have enough showers and didn't have enough hot water and water and all the issues and then this thing came up at Hout Bay's Local Management System, but they couldn't resolve it.  It then went to the Mini at Wynberg because Hout Bay is under Wynberg.  That problem then came to the S-JMC where I was and we said no, we've got to assist these people because they need to have at least the basic commodity of life, and within that structure the S-JMC then succeeded in resolving the issues so that the people could have hot water.
 Now that was - it was a very important task for the community to have what they should have, and if there was budgets and so on.  And I was very proud Sir, to be part of such a committee to help people throughout the structures.
 The same thing happened with health services and various other parts, but now there were certain things that I could do up to my level ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Then it would be passed on to the JMC and hopefully they would then resolve the issues.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now were the issues that you referred, that you had occasion to refer to the JMC ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: And that would be the Western Province JMC?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And did you ever have an occasion where you would have to communicate directly, for instance with the State Security Council?