Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-28

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes that is correct. But I do not have any knowledge about Thando's case. I was not present when it happened. I was just tortured to submission and I was taken to a magistrate and that is where I admitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you then make application, or let me put it this way. You say you make application for amnesty with a way of necklace three times, which three times are you talking about?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: I am talking about Whitie and Lemi incidents I do not know anything about Thando's but I just filled in the form. Because I knew that as soon as I appear here I will say the absolute truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you under stress when you filled in this form?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: No I was not stressed when I filled in the form.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I want to ask you why did you fill in three times then? When you were only involved in two?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: I knew that as soon as I get here I will tell the truth and mention that I was not present in Thando's incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you feel it necessary to include Thando's matter in your application? Why couldn't you have said straight away you did not know about Thando but you apply for the other two?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: It is because this happened in Uitenhague in Nonbuthle and this was done by the comrades there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Martindale?

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nxkwa when you completed this form and you mentioned that the acts in relation which you are applying is murder by means of necklacing three times, were you admitting that you also killed Thando Dlala or were you saying you want to be sort of released from prison in respect of all those three debts?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: I want to be released regarding all three.

MR MAPOMA: Right. May I perhaps also ask you to say are you now abandoning the application in respect of Thando and you are only basing your application for amnesty in respect of the two people; Lemi and Whitie?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: I cannot abandon the application regarding Thando because I have been sentenced for that case even though I have got no knowledge of it.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MARTINDALE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nxkwa have you any knowledge of how Mr Dlala died? You were at the trial so I assume that at the trial you would have heard what happened?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes I heard what happened. He was taken away from his home and he was killed at some square.

MR MARTINDALE: And as far as you heard was it also a deed done by the comrades?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: And because the other two in respect of Lemi and Whitie were done by the comrades this, you are saying that this death of Dlala was a similar event that you were convicted for, a similar event?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: And as far as your application is concerned you associate all three, you see them all three in the same light?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is so Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: Mr Nxkwa you state further that the comrades were generally the youth in the townships?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is correct.

MR MARTINDALE: And they were mobilised in terms of an ANC and UDF strategy for political change?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is correct.

MR MARTINDALE: One of the primary purposes was to break down and weaken existing structures and administrations in the townships?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: For example the local councils?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: They were also instrumental in the policy of making the townships ungovernable?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: And at the time you supported these strategies and policies?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: Which were aimed at eliminating political opponents?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: So in summary what you are saying Mr Nxkwa that the role of the action committee was a political role?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: And you supported this and associated yourself with this?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes Sir.

MR MARTINDALE: Mr Chairman at this stage those are the facts to the extent that the full details of the facts are covered in the judgments and the applicant has referred to them. Unless the committee wants to go into any more detail from Mr Nxkwa's role he has made his submission.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes I have got some questions thank you Sir. Mr Nxkwa the action committee, were you holding a particular portfolio in the action committee?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: No I did not hold any specific position in the committee.

MR MAPOMA: Were there some positions had by some people in the committee?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: No there were no specific positions in this committee. We were just a collective group of comrades.

MR MAPOMA: Was there no chairperson of that action committee?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: No there was no chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How would the action committee know what to do and when?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: If there was anyone who was associating him or herself with the past government as an informer, us as actionaries would combine and deal with this person and eliminate that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but would that elimination be a result of a decision taken by the action committee or by another forum giving instructions to the action committee? Or how would it happen?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: We would convene as the actionary committee and deal with that person who is unwanted by the community.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir. Was the action committee and affiliate of the UDF?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes it was part of UDF.

MR MAPOMA: Is it correct that at some point while you are in prison you had a conversation with one of the investigators of the TRC?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Please repeat your question?

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that while you are in prison you have at some stage or another had a conversation with one of the investigators of the TRC?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MAPOMA: In that conversation you had made mention of the chairperson of the action committee, Mr Khomomo. Have you not done so?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes that happened, I did that.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying now that there was a chairperson of the action committee?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: No there was no chairperson in this committee. What used to happen we would just convene as comrades. If there was any unwanted person in the community.

MR MAPOMA: You have just said that in your conversation with the investigator of the TRC you mentioned Mr Khomomo as the chairperson of the action committee. Can you explain this?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: I said that but that is what I heard through (...indistinct) when I arrived in the incident of burning Lemi. I asked him as to who decided that this should be done. And he said that Khomomo gave the instruction.

MR MAPOMA: Is it correct that Lemi was an activist belonging to UDF in Uitenhague?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes he was a comrade.

MR MAPOMA: Now you have said that he was an impimpi. How do you explain that?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: He was a comrade and then as time went on he turned against us and became an informer.

MR MAPOMA: Do you have any evidence in support of that allegation that he was an informer?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: Yes I do have evidence regarding that.

MR MAPOMA: Would you explain that to the committee?

NORMAN GILINDOTA NXKWA: During a action at Matanzima he was present and then when time went on, after being arrested by the police he turned against us.

CHAIRPERSON: In any event when you had asked who had given the order you believed at the time that he was an impimpi.