Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

CHAIRPERSON: ... Major Busisiwe Benedikatha Buthelezi.  This would appear, it's faxed from the South African National Defence, it's easy to trace that person.  I am interested in Nathaniel Mona Mtunya.  It is my view also in addition to what I said to counsel in chamber that Tsietsi Mokhele is apparently alive and somewhere around, I want to hear him as well.  I don't know from these which I have identified, that is Khadi Lindelwa Mabece and Trevor James Tsepo Pitso, if any of the legal representatives would be interested in those people, but I have identified them at least for anybody, other than the people you would come with.  What I want us to do and I've implored the legal representatives, that time is of the essence, that if there is a legal representative who wants somebody to be subpoenaed by the TRC, please do so as soon as possible.  As matters stand, we have now established that this matter, there won't be argument, this matter will be further heard between the 4th and 8th December 2000 at JISS Centre, Joe has undertaken to make all the logistical arrangements, but apparently a venue which he could obtain is JISS Centre, Mayfair Johannesburg where we actually started and it will continue from the 4th to the 8th.  I'm mindful that there are the municipality elections on the 5th and if that is declared a public holiday, people are free to go and vote, I don't want to stand in the way of anybody's constitutional right to case his vote for whichever party he prefers.  And because I have mentioned a few people, could we have an agreement that on the 4th we start at 9.00 a.m. at Jiss Centre, on the 4th of December 2000?  So this matter will stand adjourned to the 4th of December at JISS Centre, but I must firstly say and I want to say this to the people of this church, that thank you very much for the venue and the treatment we have received.  I have to start doing exercises because I'm bulging because of the nice food here.  Thank you very much it is most appreciated.
	Thank you to the legal representatives.  I may have been quiet most of the time, but your assistance has been invaluable.  That is highly appreciated and I'm also indebted that this is done in the spirit in which it is done normally and that is gratifying to me, speaking for myself.
	I want to thank the translators. I think you thought you would go home early for the Christmas holidays.  I'm sorry to call you back on the 4th, but thank you for your assistance and if I have stretched you, it was not intentional it was because I was busy with what I had before me and time was, in most instances, not my priority and that is my biggest weakness, I don't look at time when do you finish work, but bear with me, take it that I was not punishing you, your assistance is highly appreciated.
	To the victims, I would say, you have been at JISS Centre, you came here and you stayed throughout in attendance.  Thank you for the attendance.  The rest I will conclude with a JISS Centre when we are concluding this matter because I know for now, there is a gripe that we don't know what happened to our victims, but it is not time for me now to comment on that at this juncture. 
	I am not forgetting the applicants.  Thank you for coming in and Mr Robertshaw, you showed great interest.  You stayed in throughout.  Thank you, if we have taken you away from your work, we thank you for your co-operation you've shown.  
	We will adjourn now until the 4th of December 2000 at JISS Centre.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, just before you rise, it's not that I want the last word, but there are just two issues that I have to raise with you.  The first issue is that we did not seem to get the fourth name that you mentioned.  You mentioned Mr Buthelezi, Mtunya and Bulelo, but we didn't hear the fourth name that you mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: Mokhele?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR VISSER: Pietsi?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR VISSER: Tsietsi?  Yes, I'm sorry, that's the person at page 30 of the record.

CHAIRPERSON: . ..(indistinct - mike not on) those are the applicants.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  Let me just place on record, we have no interest in people like Khadi and so on, in fact we would have argued that his evidence was irrelevant to this application anyway, so we would not add to that list as present advised.  Chairperson, there remain two things, one is through the efforts of Mr Mapoma, for which we thank him, he has obtained a photocopy, or rather a fax from which photocopies have been made of the original statement taken from Ms Thobeka Ngono and for completeness of the record, could we ask you to accept that as Exhibit G?  My Learned Friend Mr Mapoma, has assured me that he's compared that statement to the statement which appears in your bundle, and it's identical, so it is handed to you for you to check for yourself, if you wish and then lastly Chairperson - Oh if there aren't copies, please take mine.  Chairperson last issue is we would obviously need a record because it's most helpful, particularly during Argument and it often serves as to avoid arguments as to what witnesses said or didn't say.  Could you perhaps use your auspices in order to ensure that we might be able to get a record of these proceedings for these past two days as soon as possible, so that we can be properly prepared when we appear before you again on the 4th of December?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that reminder.  It's actually of great assistance because you know after some time, sometimes your notes don't even make sense to yourself, who you took and if we have this transcription now - Mr Mapoma I would revert to you.  Please I am not in Cape Town next week, I'm in a hearing.  Utilise next week that that must be ready and I say when I get to Cape Town on the 27th of this month, I want to see that transcript.  You can even phone Adv Martin Coetzee that it is a direct tip from me, that on the 27th I want to see that transcript on my desk, not that it is being readied, I must walk in and find it on my desk.

MR MAPOMA: As the Chairperson pleases.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS