Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He told me that a meeting had been arranged and that he wanted me to accompany him to the meeting, which I did.

MR WESSELS: Yes and when did this meeting take place?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot recall the precise date but I know that it was at the Hyperama.

MR WESSELS: I beg your pardon?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I do recall that it was at the Hyperama, but I don't know precisely on what date.

MR WESSELS: How long approximately after the incident?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: A number of days.  I'm not certain how many days.

MR WESSELS: And did you ask him what Verster had said about the instruction which had been successfully executed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At which stage?

MR WESSELS: At any stage.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He simply told me that Lafras was impressed, and I left it at that.

MR WESSELS: Did you tell Mr Barnard that on the 2nd of May, the day after the incident, you heard during a cell meeting that Verster was making enquiries of your involvement?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that was my evidence before lunch.

MR WESSELS: And what was Mr Barnard's attitude towards that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As I've said, he couldn't believe it and then we started speculating on the motivation for the denial.

MR WESSELS: Didn't you ask if he asked Luitingh about this aspect?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I didn't.

MR WESSELS: And after the meeting with Luitingh took place, did you still not ask him what Lafras said, why was Joe making enquiries about this incident?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, how would Ferdi have known that Joe was making enquiries, in order to be able to convey this?

MR WESSELS: Well if he heard it he could say: "I heard Joe was making enquiries."

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Where would he have heard it?

MR WESSELS: From you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: But that would have exposed me.

MR WESSELS: Yes, that would have exposed you, so he was trying to protect you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And when you were sitting there in the parking lot, could you see the vehicle in which Luitingh was seated?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I saw a vehicle but I don't know what sort of vehicle it was, I cannot recall, but I saw Ferdi walking over to a person and he stood there talking to him.

MR WESSELS: Did the person remain seated in the vehicle or was he outside?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Initially he was inside but then he got out of the vehicle.

MR WESSELS: Did you see him, did you know him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I didn't know him.

MR WESSELS: Could you identify him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: By means of Ferdi, yes.

MR WESSELS: Well could you see his appearance?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not really, there were many vehicles passing by in-between us and I lay flat in the vehicle in case he looked in our direction.  So I looked very quickly and I didn't have any other involvement in the meeting.

MR WESSELS: What was your involvement in the meeting?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Barnard told me that in the light of the allegations which had been made by Mr Verster, he was uncertain and as he stated in his version, he had heard rumours of persons who had executed operations and subsequently the person who was responsible or the informer, would be eliminated and I was there in case there were any problems.  And that is what I did partially.

MR WESSELS: What weapon did you have on you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I had a 9mm CZ.

MR WESSELS: And did Mr Luitingh climb out of the vehicle before Mr Barnard arrived there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot recall these details precisely.

MR WESSELS: And you lay flat on the seat and peered over?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The seat was pulled back.

MR WESSELS: And you peered over to see what was going on?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And then Mr Barnard returned and he told you that he had obtained money.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And he gave you R5 000.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Didn't you think it's extraordinary, given the fact that he was a member of the organisation and he was receiving a salary?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was also aware of the bonus system and I accepted that it was merely a production bonus.

MR WESSELS: Very well.  Mr Botha, did you at any stage before 1995, admit to anybody or state to anybody that you or Mr Barnard had been involved in Dr Webster's death?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR WESSELS: So you kept in entirely secret?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And during August 1992, the Webster post-mortem inquiry began.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And during this time evidence was given of Mr Barnard's involvement in it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: His suspected involvement.

MR WESSELS: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Among others, evidence was given by Lafras Luitingh that Mr Barnard upon an occasion had come to him and said that he had shot Dr Webster.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: That he told this to Joe Verster and that Joe Verster told the Generals.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I believe that was the evidence.

MR WESSELS: And then there was a situation during which it was speculated by everyone on who was responsible for Dr Webster's death, the CCB or Mr Barnard.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, there was such speculation.

MR WESSELS: And it was very clear to you at that stage that the blame for Dr Webster's murder would be placed upon Mr Barnard by the CCB.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it appeared to be as such.

MR WESSELS: It wasn't only Mr Luitingh who gave such evidence but there was also evidence from Derek Louw, whose real name is Chris Nel, if I have it correctly.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I don't know them at all, but I accept what you have said.

MR WESSELS: And you realised that the incident would be the responsibility of Mr Barnard.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And that you were also at risk as a consequence.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: You were aware of the serious consequences of being found guilty of that incident.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: There was already an Amnesty Act on the table.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And according to your beliefs and your own position you believed that you did everything in the interests of the organisation and in the execution of an instruction and that you believed bona fide that this was an act which was committed by the organisation and that the terms of the Amnesty Act which were of importance at that stage, would give you indemnity for it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Why didn't you apply for amnesty?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There are two reasons.  Firstly, Mr Barnard and I came into a serious confrontation because we discussed the matter, I asked him what the situation was, I said that perhaps there was an opportunity here, that we should definitely discuss it, but upon various occasions he refused to do so, to the extent that he said that he would rather go to prison instead of putting the others in the cells, and I said: "But you must understand my position", and he said that he didn't tell anybody about my involvement and he wanted to protect Joe at all costs still, because he realised that he wouldn't have Mr Verster's backing.  I left it at that.
	Secondly, I was not responsible for the project, it was not my project, I didn't want to apply alone for amnesty for a project which wasn't mine to begin with.