Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

CHAIRPERSON: And in this case are you aware whether Mr Bonga verified?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not have knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Now whilst I was still trying to peruse my notes to find out exactly what Mr Khumalo said in this, in this regard, it has now been drawn to my attention by a member of my Committee, that Mr Khumalo said it was your function to verify and that you reported to him that you had verified with the underground structures of MK before, before this incident occurred, and that you told him so after Ms Ndumo had been killed.  Was he lying when he gave us that evidence?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is not correct.  As the unit commander, I was supposed to make sure whether it was true, and I had to give the general commander a report back, and he was supposed to move and pass it on to the underground structure, and the underground structure was supposed to then verify.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying that he lied when he gave that evidence.  Yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be difficult to respond by saying yes or no.  That's how we did not operate in that way.

CHAIRPERSON: But he says that's what you said to him.  You told him that you had verified with the underground structures.  Did you or did you not tell him that you had verified with the underground structures?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I did not verify with the underground structure.  I did it alone.

CHAIRPERSON: So if Mr Khumalo says that you said you had verified with the underground structures, he is lying, you didn't say that to him?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I did not say that to him.

CHAIRPERSON: So he is lying.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And even 'though you are saying it is not your function, you know there is a need for verification, but it is not your function, it is the function of the general commander.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I knew that there was verification needed.

CHAIRPERSON: In your evidence, you stated that the reason why you initially issued the order to have Elsie and Hapile killed, was after you had identified three girls who were seated at the back of the car, and two boys, who were identified as IFP members.  You were in a position to identify one of the girls as Hapile Ndumo.  And it was on the basis of having seen those girls in the company of people who were IFP members that you issued the order that Elsie and Hapile should be killed.  My question is, it is quite clear in your evidence that you only identified one person, and that's Hapile Ndumo, yet your order was specific in terms of what had to be done, and to whom, the killing had to be effected.  Why did you include Elsie whom you had not identified amongst the three girls?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Elsie was not present during the incident of the car, but she got involved in the other things, that why I said they should be killed.  She got implicated somewhere.

CHAIRPERSON: When did she get implicated somewhere?  How long after you had identified Hapile Ndumo in the company of the two gentlemen whom you regarded as IFP members?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not remember.  I don't remember how long it was after I saw Hapile in the car, but it was in town.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know that incident.  That happened quite a long time after because your evidence was that they disappeared thereafter for a long, long time.  Is it not so?  That was your evidence.  And the next time you saw them was when they were in town in the company of a group of people that you identified to us.  You named Oupa Smith, you named Dondo, you named Dada, and a number of people.  But that happened a long time after the grenade incident.  Is it not so?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And you will recall that your order was issued the next day after you had identified Ms Ndumo in the company of these IFP persons, so how could you have included her because of what she then further did?  And I'm talking about Elsie.  How could you have included her in what she had further did, because the order was prompted by the fact that you had seen these three girls in the company of the IFP persons?  Were you not wrong in including her then?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I included Elsie in the killing because the two of them disappeared, and where Hapile was Elsie was found.  In other words, she was an obstacle too.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, you ordered that Elsie and Hapile should be killed immediately after you had recognised Hapile amongst the small group of girls who were in the company of alleged IFP members.  How can you say you included her because she disappeared, when, how soon does it take one to disappear?  She wasn't in the car, you said, and the next day you give an order, so when has she disappeared in 24 hours?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Chairperson I think I said already that they had disappeared before the incident of this car.  When I saw Hapile in the car they had long disappeared.  I could only see Hapile.  Now since that they had disappeared, the two of them, I thought she must be among those girls, that's why the following day I included her.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo we are sitting here and listening very meticulously to your evidence.  We have to understand the sequence in which you give your evidence.  It is our function to do so.  It is our function to make sure that we don't mislead you, in the evidence that you have led.  If we did so we would be doing a serious miscarriage of justice, not only to you but to the process itself.  Not to mention to the applications of Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi.  And we can assure you that we make sure that we do not do a miscarriage of justice.  We do not misquote you.  It was your evidence said that these ladies disappeared for a long time, after the hand grenade attack, and the next time you saw them you saw them when they were in town, and when you saw them they were in the company of Oupa Smith, who stayed in Zone 13, Dondo who stayed in, no you didn't know where Dondo stayed, Dada who stayed in Zone 12, and Jabu who once stayed in Zone 12 as well, at which time all these men were now staying at Kwamadala Hostel.  That was the sequence of your evidence.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now how can you say Elsie had disappeared a long time before?  How can you say that?  When I asked you, you said this incident happened around June 1992.  I asked you that question specifically and that was your response.  You said around June 1992, and later said it must have been before June 1992.  The record will bear me out.  Was it not a mistake to have included Elsie in your order, your initial orders which you issued immediately, and to be precise, a day after you had identified only Hapile Ndumo amongst alleged IFP members in the car?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: No.  I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis was she included?  Your evidence is that she was not there, and you enquiries were only prompted by that particular incident.  This is your evidence.  You only started investigating this matter after the hand grenade incident, which is the incident that occurred at the entrance of LTA in Zone 12 Extension.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Chairperson, let's go back a little bit.  We must remember that that sentence had already been passed out on them, as well as other, as well as other Imidwembe.  Chairperson you are disturbing me.  You are really scaring me.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no cause for you to be scared.  You may proceed Mr Mhlango.  The general order was issued, you were still saying, the death sentence?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.  The general commander had issued out a general order already, and after throwing a grenade into the car and it was thrown out of the car I repeated the order.  I said Hapile and Elsie should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know when the general order was issued?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was given to the unit commanders.