Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When the comrades arrived, they didn't agree with the decision we had taken.  They said we were not supposed to just slash them and let them go because now we are giving them a reason to go and attack us.   That was the decision we were taught that we were supposed to kill them, not to slash them or stroke them.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What did you do after that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That is when we left, we went straight to Mr Amos' house.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you proceed and tell us what happened at Amos' house and thereafter?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When we went to Mr Amos' house, we were not walking but we were running.   The people who were there, they ran away.   When we arrived there, since there was no one, we burnt down the house.  The people who were there, had already left and the people whom I saw there were children, they were playing outside.  We tried to chase the people who were running and they were not running to the same direction.  We couldn't get hold of the males, the only person we got hold of, was Dudu.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Were you present when she was caught?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I was.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What happened to her after she was caught, will you please tell the Committee?

ADV DE JAGER: Just a moment please, could I just get clarity here.  That was after Dudu had been lashed, had received 200 strokes?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So she couldn't run at that stage or could she?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: She tried, but then she didn't have enough strength because she was a female and the males were chasing her.  Other people who were slashed 300, they could run away and they did succeed in running away, but she couldn't because she was a female and the males were chasing her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Molohlanye?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.  You said you caught Dudu, what happened after that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: She was beaten up, it was in the street.  She was beaten up to death.  That is where she died.

MR MOLOHLANYE: How was she beaten?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Some were kicking her, some were beating her, some were throwing stones on her, I think the stones actually killed her.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What was your role during that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I also threw a stone.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So you were involved in the beating and kicking of her, of Dudu?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The only thing I did, I took a big stone and I threw it on her.  I didn't kick her.

MR MALAN: Will you please look at the last sentence of paragraph 14?  You say there right at the bottom
"... I also joined in kicking and beating her with stones until she died."
	Do you see that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I do.

MR MALAN: Do you remember that I asked you whether you had read the statement?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I do remember.

MR MALAN: And I asked you whether everything was true and correct and I think you said yes?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now, did you kick her or did you not kick her?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I didn't kick her.  I took a stone because I wanted something to finish her quicker.  When I arrived there, so was already laying down and I took a big stone and I threw it on her.  Others kicked her.

MR MALAN: Were you not pursuing Dudu when you ran after these people, did you not say you followed the group who pursued Dudu?  If I can explain, if I understood you correctly you were splitting up in different groups, pursuing these people running away.   I understood you to say you were following Dudu, I may be mistaken?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is correct.  When the people left Amos' house, there were many and they were running towards one direction but, because there was a sugar cane or sugar field, some of them ran into the sugar field.

MR MALAN: Where did you run?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I ran to the road.  First I proceeded in chasing Bunu, but then Dudu was running on the street and not into the sugar cane, then I ran towards Dudu, I joined the group which was chasing Dudu.

MR MALAN: Did you catch Dudu?  Did you get hold of Dudu, did you catch her?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: We didn't arrive there and catch her or hold her, what happened is that once she was there, that is when we started throwing stones and some of them kicked her.  There was no time for us to hold her or to actually grab her, once we arrived there, we threw stones and we started kicking her, she fell down.

MR MALAN: And you threw only one big stone, you said?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I tried the small stones, but then one thing I know or one thing which was profound is that I took a big one when she was laying down, and then I threw it on her.

MR MALAN: Did you throw, you first threw some small stones, is that what you are saying?  What was your part, you need to tell us unfortunately.  How many stones did you throw at her?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It is not easy for me to actually count the stones, we were too many and too many people were throwing stones.  The reason I took a bigger stone is because I thought that we were going to hit each other with the small stones and I took a bigger stone and then I threw it on her.

MR MALAN: How big was this stone, can you point us, can you show us with your hands?

INTERPRETER: He is actually showing the size of the stone.

MR MALAN: I would say that is about 30 cm's in diameter.  Was it a round stone?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, it wasn't a round stone, the shape is not as round, but we can say it is almost round, but not round.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall the evidence that was led by one of the Policemen at your criminal trial in which the stone was described, would you say it was, the stone that you threw at Dudu, that was described during your criminal trial, the big stone that was discovered next to her body?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I can agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was the biggest stone that was amongst the other stones, discovered around her?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I can agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you hit her with this big stone, what part of her body?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Her head.

ADV DE JAGER: And did the stone crush her head?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I am not sure, I just threw the stone.

CHAIRPERSON: But the simple question is the stone that you threw at her, you threw it on her head?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MALAN: Can you just explain to me, I find it difficult to understand that the other people apparently six of them that got the lashes, they were also in Amos' house when you went running to the house, they fled from Amos' house, is that correct?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And they each had just received 300 lashes?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And you were quite a large group of able young men, pursuing these would-be attackers that were now fleeing?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.   Let me just explain there, as I have already  explained, I said after we slashed these people, we allowed them to go back and some of us, our group, we started dispersing and then later, when they saw that we were running back to Bunu's house, that is when others came back, not all the group.

MR MALAN: No, but at least the people, the comrades from Amadiqwe were with you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And some other people from your comrades that were involved in the lashing and in the court, the tribunal, your neighbours, there were quite a number of people present.  Who ran towards Amos' house after the people from Amadiqwe arrived?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Many.  I was one of those people, but we were many.

MR MALAN: And six people fled from the house, plus Dudu, but you couldn't catch any of the six?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, we didn't catch them, they ran away.