Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, the point is simply, there is a consistent theme that runs through the public approach and policy of the African National Congress, expressing opposition to violence even in the face of provocation and that is essentially what we wish to canvass out of this document.
	They are public statements, issued over an extended period of time which were a matter of public record predominantly, but they are statements of the organisation of which the applicant is an office bearer.

CHAIRPERSON: That might be so, but Mr Smuts, all I am asking is how many specific items in this document, do you intend to refer to?

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, that is hard to determine depending on the response of the witness.  If the witness is prepared to confirm that the unwavering position of his organisation throughout was an opposition to violence and to taking the law into one's own hands, we don't need to go into the specifics of the various documents at all.
	Mr Chairman, as I say these are matters of public record.  If it is going to assist in shortening the process, then it can't take the witness more than 10 minutes, quarter of an hour at the outside, to reflect on whether these documents are what they purport to be.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are going to put your proposition as broadly as you put it to me first, and see what happens, then I can determine whether or what the next step would be.

MR SMUTS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Maxhayi, from document A which is the Pretoria Minute on the 6th of August through to document L, that is the 6th of August 1990, the Pretoria Minute through to document L, which is on page, commences on page 6 of this extract.  The extract is at the bottom of page 6, moving on to page 7.  There is a persistent theme running through both the Accords and Agreements to which the African National Congress was a party and in the statements issued on behalf of the organisation, calling for peace, asking members of the African National Congress in particular and people in general, not to allow themselves to be provoked into violence and committing your organisation to a peaceful process.
	Was that the position at all times, of your organisation?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: Was there any, to your knowledge, before the campaign or the operation as you style it in which you involved yourselves on the 13th of April 1993, was there any change in the position of your organisation regarding the use of violence?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, ANC is always calling for non-violent activities.  Even comrade Chris Hani, he died preaching us, preaching the people of South Africa, the youth, not to involve in any violent activity.
	As I have said earlier on, that was another thing that really aggravated our anger, because at that time, according to our own analysis, the government made a fool because on the other hand, we were preaching as an organisation, but it happened that such a prominent figure like comrade Chris Hani is killed cold bloodedly.

MR SMUTS: Even after the death of Mr Hani, was there any change in the policy of your organisation prior to your taking the lives of the Weakley brothers and attempting to kill those who were with them?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: There was no change.  It is the anger which prompted us to do that.

MR SMUTS: Would you concede then that - Mr Chairman, has rain stopped play?  Has the rain stopped play?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear?

MR SMUTS: I am not sure whether anything is going to be recorded.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR SMUTS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Would you agree then Mr Maxhayi, that the decision that you took to kill people and particularly to target white people as your victims, was not in accordance with the publicly stated policy of your organisation?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I stated clearly before that we didn't get any authority from the African National Congress.

MR SMUTS: That doesn't answer the question Mr Maxhayi.  Do you admit that the decision that you took to kill white people, was not in accordance with the publicly stated policy of your organisation?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I just want you to be clear that this happened within a short period of time.  There was no time for the ANC to review its policy.  The ANC was not pleased that Chris Hani was killed.
	Definitely the ANC had to say something about that, because all the policies were made on the basis that everybody was gearing for election, so there was no expected violence from the government, and the ANC, according to the ANC.

MR SMUTS: Could I ask you again, do you admit that the decision that you took, was not in accordance with the publicly stated policy of your organisation?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, as I have said earlier on, that we didn't get any authorization from the ANC.

MR SMUTS: Your decision was in fact in conflict with the publicly stated policy of your organisation?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I cannot say it was in conflict because the politics first of all, they are controlled by the pending circumstances, that must be understood.
	So the fact that Chris Hani was assassinated, and Chris Hani was the man of the calibre that we know, now I think ANC expected such things, that is the reason why comrade President Madiba, made that call that we should be calm.  It is because the ANC knew that as the rank and file, we would regard that as a challenge, as a declaration of war, the killing of comrade Chris Hani.

MR SMUTS: May I ask you Mr Maxhayi, how did you come to hear of the assassination of Mr Hani?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Can you repeat your question please?

MR SMUTS: How did you find out, how did you hear about the assassination of Mr Hani?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I heard it on the news on the TV news, on the 10th of April, in the evening of that day, I heard it.

MR SMUTS: Did you thereafter attempt to stay abreast of the news as to what the response of your organisation was, what investigations were being conducted in respect of the death and the like?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I left the TV at the time, I didn't hear anything.  It was enough for me that comrade Chris Hani was killed.

MR SMUTS: Did you make no effort between that date and the 13th of April, to determine what the response of your organisation was to the killing of Mr Hani?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, because the following day I met with the comrade, Nyalukana, who was my colleague at the SDU's.  So, we launched that campaign, we agreed to retaliate, so there was no need to go to the ANC.
	It was only that statement of President that really caused us to revisit our decision.

MR SMUTS: Did you not follow either on the television or on the radio or in the newspapers, the events that unfolded after the killing of Mr Hani?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, I didn't that day.

MR SMUTS: When you say that day, are you talking about the 10th of April?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The 10th of April, the 11th of April, I was not in a place where I could have an access to a TV.  The 12th, I think if my memory serves me well, I only came to an access of the media on the 13th, but I am not certain.
	So I just want to confirm that I didn't hear the responses of other people around that, but what I knew was that there was an anger.

MR SMUTS: Are you saying that between the 10th and the 13th of April, you never looked at a newspaper, you never listened to the radio and you never watched the television news?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I am not sure about the newspaper and the radio, specifically the TV.  I didn't watch.

MR SMUTS: Can I take you to document M in the bundle, that is a newspaper report which deals with an interview conducted with Mr Mandela and which appeared in the Daily Despatch on the 12th of April 1993.
	Do you see that report?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: The newspaper clipping is in the bundle, at the back, do you have it with the photograph of Mr Mandela?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question you want to ask about it Mr Smuts?