Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-02

MR SHANE: You went into the tavern alone, your other comrades who were waiting outside did not go into the tavern.  Is that correct?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: What did you tell the deceased?  What did you say to him?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: What I can remember, when I found him inside the tavern and I told him that I want to see him, he wanted to know what was it all about, but at the end he left the house with me.

MR SHANE: And when he wanted to know what it was all about, what did you tell him?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: The soldiers were nearer and they could see what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you manage to him out of the tavern?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I said he used to be a friend of mine and we used to stay together at Penduka section, as I was calling him he knew he did not know, he did not know that there was a plan, but he went out of the house because he knew me and he thought we were going to discuss something outside.  He did not know that there was a plan ready for him.

MR SHANE: When you got outside, your other comrades who were with you, they also then must have seen the deceased.  Is that correct?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE: What happened then, with you and your comrades and the deceased?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: We took him with.

MR SHANE: When you took him did you drag him or did he walk himself?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: He was asking for forgiveness on the way but the guns were pointed at him but we took him with.

MR SHANE: So he walked with guns pointed at him asking for forgiveness?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE: What did he want forgiveness for?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I won't know because he was, I think he was also afraid because he was in that meeting that particular morning and he was told not to leave because the comrades wanted to see him after the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: But why would someone just ask for forgiveness without being told?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Will you please repeat the question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would somebody ask for forgiveness, out of the blue, without knowing what his problem was or what he's being accused of?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: In that situation, that war situation, when the comrades visit you with suspicions, and you feel guilty.  He felt guilty that is why he was asking for forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that he was feeling guilty?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: The way he was taken from that place and when the guns were pointed at him he, it was clear to him that he was going to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but that's not the point.  He asked for forgiveness, for what?  You say he felt guilty.  How do you know that?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Because he was an IFP member

CHAIRPERSON: You're guessing.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So you know that he felt guilty about being a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party and therefore he asked for forgiveness?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes.

MR SHANE: When he asked for forgiveness, did you speak to him or did your other comrades speak to him, and ask him why he was seeking forgiveness?  Did you find out from him what he had done that he needed to be forgiven for?

CHAIRPERSON: That's putting the cart before the horse, isn't it?  I would have expected them to have told him what he had done and therefore he was asking forgiveness.

MR SHANE: With respect Mr Chairman, things, as it emerges, things don't happen the way we would expect them to, with the greatest respect sir.

MR SHANE: Do you know why he wanted to be forgiven?  Have you got any idea?

CHAIRPERSON: He wanted to be forgiven because he felt guilty because he was a member of Inkatha.

MR SHANE: Did the deceased himself tell you anything that he did wrong?  Not, this is now not what you thought, but what the deceased himself said to you when he was asking for forgiveness.  Did the deceased not mention anything he had done that he needed forgiveness for.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: No.

MR SHANE: You then walked with him, guns pointing at him.  Where did you go?

MR SHANE: We went to a place just behind the Tokoza stadium.

MR SHANE: Is that near or far from the tavern?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: It was far from the tavern.

MR SHANE: And what happened at the stadium, or outside the stadium, what happened then?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: When we arrived there, I instructed two gentlemen to shoot him.

MR SHANE: Who were these gentlemen you instructed to shoot him?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: It was Nduduzi and Johannes.

MR SHANE: Were they both armed?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE: With AK-47's?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, they had AK-47's.

MR SHANE: Were you armed?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: No.

MR SHANE: How did you order them to kill him, what did you say?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I told them to take him, when we got behind the stadium they knew very well as they were told from the base that the person that would be brought that person should be killed.  So these two boys had firearms, those are the guys that, those are the people that shot.

MR SHANE: And they shot him on your orders?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Did you witness them shooting him?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Do you know how many shots were fired by each of your comrades who you ordered?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: No I cannot remember, but both firearms were used.

MR SHANE: What happened after he was shot?  Did you just leave the body there or what did you do?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: We went back to the bases.

MR SHANE: And you left the body where it was lying.  Is that right?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Now, how do you feel, and you say this facing the bereaved family of the deceased, how do you feel about what you did?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I felt bad.

MR SHANE: Did you feel bad after the incident because he was your friend?  Why did you feel bad?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: It is because he was my neighbour but I had no choice, I had to do it.

MR SHANE: So you felt bad because you killed your neighbour and you had no choice, you were doing your duty?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: And now that the family, the bereaved family of the deceased are facing you, do you have anything to say to them now?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes there is something that I would like to say.

MR SHANE: Will you say it?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I would like to ask for forgiveness more especially his mother, the one I grew up in front of and his sisters, the whole family.  I would like to ask for forgiveness.

MR SHANE: These people that you are asking forgiveness for are people that you knew, some of them you grew up with?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SHANE: Now you've also applied for amnesty for an attack on the Khumalo gang.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: This was also in 1993?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Can you remember the month?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: No.

MR SHANE: You state ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In your application you say around November 1993.  Is that ?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That could be possible but I cannot remember the month.

MR SHANE: Can you explain what happened with your attack on the Khumalo gang?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Will you please repeat the question, sir.

MR SHANE: Will you please explain the details of your attack on the Khumalo gang, for which you are seeking amnesty.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Those people were harassing us at our place of residence.  As we were SDU members we decided to launch attacks against the Khumalo gang.  We wanted to removed Khumalo because Khumalo was harassing us.

MR SHANE: Can you just give details?  Who was this Khumalo and what was his political affiliations?