Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  I said so.  I did say in my evidence-in-chief that I once went to stay in Dlamini's and Luthuli's wards.  My party looked like a banned party at that time because they were afraid.  I then decided to start building the party.  When I went to Luthuli ward, I asked for assistance.  Luthuli's wife told me that they could help me in attacking people.  She said if I wanted to stay in their ward, I was free to do so, but when I go home, I should try to persuade people to rejoin the party.  When I went there, I persuaded people and fought those who fought me. That is why I was preaching peace on one hand and fighting on the another.  I wanted my party to grow, but did not want people to know the bad things I was doing.

MR MALAN: What would you have understood at the time, to be the policy of the IFP, of the Inkatha Freedom Party?  Would they have supported it, would the President of your organisation in your understanding, have been proud of you or would he have been against what you were doing?

MR NGCOBO: He would be against what I was doing.  That is why they never sent me to do these things.  I was doing this to protect myself and the community I was living in.  It was not from the party and that is why I was running away.  I had to protect the people in my area.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chair, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: The organisation that you were building in your area, what was that called?

MR NGCOBO: Inkatha Freedom Party.

CHAIRPERSON: And who were the officials in your area of the Inkatha Freedom Party that you were building?

MR NGCOBO: It was Zulu, who was the chairman, and James Zulu was also a leader.  There were two Zulus, one a chairman that I cannot remember his first name, and James Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: What was James, James what?

MR NGCOBO: James Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned - yes?

MR NGCOBO: James Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they know that you were trying to form this organisation by going around, killing other people?

MR NGCOBO: No.  As leaders, I was hiding these things from them.  I did not have a group of killers.  I did this on my own, not with the people I was leading.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am not talking about your followers, I am talking about the leaders, I am talking about the Chairman, Mr Zulu and I am talking about the other Zulu, did they tell you that in the name of the organisation, in order to build your organisation, you must kill the other people?

MR NGCOBO: No.  They gave me the firearm to defend myself.  I just used that firearm to attack because I could not just wait to be attacked and defend myself then.  I would have been killed.  What I did was not the reason why I was given a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngcobo, you said that you observed some of the ANC members through binoculars, do you remember saying so?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before the first killing, were these binoculars taken away from you by the Police?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember when the police confiscated the binoculars.  I used the binoculars to look for them and could not attack them when they were in groups.  I waited them to be alone so that I could attack them.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw people being together, did you have absolute proof that because these people have gathered, that for instance Xolani Dlamini who you might have seen with these people, were you absolutely certain that he belonged to the other camp, that is the ANC?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  The message I got is that they were waiting for a bus from Gamalakhe to bring ANC supporters there.

CHAIRPERSON: This transportation you are speaking about, did for instance the IFP people have their own busses and the ANC people have their own busses?

MR NGCOBO: At that place, ANC people use their buses because that was the ANC area.  There were no go areas then, as it is still happening at other places.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's for a moment return to Mfanafuti Blose.  You say he was involved in the attacks of the community.  Was he attacking specific people in the community because you simply say he was involved in the attack?

MR NGCOBO: Mfanafuthi and his friend were attacking people.  For example they would arrest a male person who had assaulted his wife or girlfriend, and that person would be assaulted by a group of them, even girls, and they would then laugh at that person.  This was happening during the day, and they were raping girls as they wished.  The community knows that very well.

CHAIRPERSON: You have given us names of people who for instance killed your mother, would you associate him after you said he did all bad things to the community, even associate him with the killing of your mother?

MR NGCOBO: You mean Mfanafuthi?

CHAIRPERSON: That is correct sir.

MR NGCOBO: That is possible because people would leave, say Murchison and go to another area.  They would then meet people from that area and all of them would then go and do something to somebody at night, and they would then leave.  The same was done in another area.

CHAIRPERSON: For instance we could have some indication from you, because you said you observed some of these groups through your binoculars, did you ever observe him through your binoculars in the attack of your mother?

MR NGCOBO: My binoculars were not those good, expensive binoculars.  One could see people who are not very far, and could see what they were doing.  However, one would not be able to say who are those people.  I could not go near them I was always a loner.

CHAIRPERSON: You had testified that you had great respect for instance to the women folk, you wouldn't harm them at all.  Do you recall that?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You went to the Hlope house, you first spoke to Mr Hlophe, thereafter to Mrs Hlophe.  Did you ever say to Mrs Hlophe, look, these boys in your house are troublesome, please speak to them, because you didn't want to hurt women.  Did you do that?

MR NGCOBO: No.  The harm I was talking about was the physical harm.  I know that I did harm to Hlophe's family, but I never hit a woman because that person is against me.  My crimes are an indication of that.  I cannot attack a woman because they are always defenceless.

CHAIRPERSON: You say your biggest attempt was to mobilise people to join the Inkatha Freedom Party.  Could you explain to us, by killing people, how would you gather confidence from people that they would join your organisation, how would you achieve that?

MR NGCOBO: The support of the IFP in the area was very small.  People were much afraid.  I was building the party because I built a lot of branches with Mr Zulu.  Another branch in my area was opened by Mr Khawula from eMahlongwa after I built it.  Not all ANC supporters were fighting us.  For example, there is an ANC leader in my area.  I used to chat to him when I was still outside and we never quarrelled.  I am imprisoned with other ANC members and we do not quarrel.  They know where we come from and that is something we cannot deny.  We now preach and we know what were doing before we were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: If we have regard Mr Ngcobo, to the people you killed, we realise the majority were youth.

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  They were the ringleaders.  Those were the people who were involved were these young boys, not the adults.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst you were mobilising the community after traumatising the mothers of these youths, do you think those people would have joined the IFP after being traumatised with death?

MR NGCOBO: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me rephrase it for you then Mr Ngcobo.  Your objective was to mobilise people to join Inkatha Freedom Party, isn't it so?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And we see that the majority of the people you killed, were the youth isn't it?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.