Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-29

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman I am concerned about my learned colleague Mr Wessels' response that it's highly unlikely.  This evidence was given the day before yesterday, the vital evidence, in relation to his client.  There is a weekend.  His client says I am denying that this has happened.  Senior members of our profession work within weekends in the middle of a trial.  I don't want to prescribe to my learned friend how he should conduct his case.  I am told by Mr Kahanovitz juniors work as well.  He corrects it, only juniors work during the weekends, so he says with some justification I may say.  But Mr Chairman I would urge my learned friend, one would have thought that Mr Verster would, whatever business or activity he may be involved in, would have come here a couple of days ago.  He no doubt will make himself available for my learned friend during the weekend, and I would urge that he tries to finish his cross-examination of this witness, we will continue with the witness on Monday, because for a person in his position Mr Chairman to be sitting here, listen to evidence, being influenced or uninfluenced by what is happening isn't fair, and I would urge that the Committee appeal to my learned friend to proceed and complete his cross-examination of the witness.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman it seems that other than Mr Bizos I have other work too, but that's not the point.  It's not that I'm not going to work, whether I am going to work it is a matter of obtaining documentation to which I do not have access to.  I don't have a big infrastructure supporting me and my attorney to get all the documents.  I don't have the documents that I need to look at.  It's not a question of whether - I can leave the documents or prepare it all depends when I am going to get the documents that I require to continue with the cross-examination.
	To deal with that further.  Mr Verster is not presently in the country so I can't get him here.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible for the Commission to assist in acquiring of documents, if they are official documents, judgments, records, etc?

MR WESSELS: I certainly will and I will discuss that with my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: That that might expedite that because we have access to a number of official documents.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson just from the Commission's side we want to expedite this matter and we will render our assistance in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wessels I agree with what Mr Bizos has said because we, as you know, as a Commission are pressed for time and we would certainly appreciate it if the cross-examination could be recommenced on Monday.

MR WESSELS: I have a full understanding for that and I will do my utmost to try and proceed as soon as I can Mr Chairman.

MR VAN ECK: Chairperson if I may come in regarding Botha's position.  His name has been mentioned quite regularly during cross-examination and I am prepared to allow his evidence to stand down until Mr Barnard's cross-examination has been concluded.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is your attitude about interposing him in now at this stage, what would your attitude be?

MR VAN ECK: My attitude Mr Chairman is not to put him in today.  My understanding is that the Commission is going to adjourn within an hour's time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we are sitting until one o'clock today.

MR VAN ECK: Ja, my attitude is it would be senseless to start with his evidence today, maybe stand it down again, his evidence-in-chief, and carry on with it at a later stage whilst Mr Barnard is still under cross-examination, I don't think that's an ideal situation at all.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson there is one other factor that you have to take into account, Mr Williams would also like to hear the evidence of Calla Botha, and we have made an undertaking that we will start on Monday with Mr Botha's evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms Coleridge.

MR LAX: Would your client be willing to start on Monday if, for example, Mr Wessels can't go on?

MR VAN ECK: Well the position would be still the same Mr Chairman, but if Mr Williams is here and we can save time by that, that can be done.

CHAIRPERSON: And sorry Ms Coleridge, I forgot to ask you, do you have any cross-examination at this stage of Mr Barnard?

MS COLERIDGE: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it looks like we've come to a dead-end for today at any event.  But we will resume on Monday.  Once again Mr Wessels if we could start with the cross-examination of Mr Barnard, that would be the best by far option.
	Yes I think if you can liaise with Ms Coleridge and let them know what documentation you want and hopefully they will be able to assist you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman if Mr Wessels requires documents in relation to the Webster inquest we may be able to assist him Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Bizos, that's much appreciated.
	Yes unfortunately we won't be able to carry on today.  We've lost some time but for understandable reasons.  I have just been reminded now by my colleague Mr Lax that we were informed that Correctional Services, who transport Mr Barnard to and fro, have made an arrangement for him, it's no longer necessary for him to leave at quarter to four as it was in the past.  They have made that arrangement and also they can start earlier.  Now I know the objection to starting at nine o'clock but is it possible, perhaps, for next week to make an arrangement where we can sit longer days like starting at nine and hitting through to five-ish.  I know that you've got practices to run and other business to do but if you could arrange your affairs for the one week our time is running out, we'd like to get as far as possible with this hearing.  We still have the evidence of a couple of witnesses who may take some time as well.  So we are going to struggle to finish next week.
	We will adjourn to next Monday and try to start at half-past nine on Monday, because they have to set up.  The first day is always the set-up day but after that if we could start at nine in the mornings it would be better.
	We will adjourn now until next Monday, 2nd of October at 9H30 at this venue.  I am told that it is going to be in this room on Monday.  We will adjourn until then.  Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS