Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is far.  It is near the police college, it is on 
the northern side of Pretoria and General Van Rensburg lived on the 
southern side of Pretoria, near the University.

MR HUGO: I want to put it to you that Mr De Kock is going to 
say that his recollection is that he used his own transport to go to 
police head quarters and there he contacted Van Rensburg again and 
there he made arrangements with the technical division?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, just give me one moment please.  ADV

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Hugo, could you perhaps give us an indication how 
far is the house and the technical department, how far are they 
apart?

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman,  if you can give me a minute just to get 
instructions on this point.  Mr Nieuwoudt, I put it to you that Mr De 
Kock will say that at that time in the morning, bearing in mind the 
traffic at that stage, it would take about ten to twelve minutes to go 
from General Van Rensburg's premises to the technical division?  
Can you comment on that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't deny that, but all that I know is that Mr 
De Kock went round to his house, if I remember correctly, he 
collected his moonbag, greeted his wife and it was then that I met 
his wife for the first time and from there we departed.
	Because how would I have gotten there, I didn't have 
transport at my disposal and I didn't personally know Mr Waal du 
Toit at that stage.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

MR HUGO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr 
Chairman.  I represent Mr Lionel Snyman and I have a few questions 
to ask to Mr Nieuwoudt.  Mr Nieuwoudt, did you and Colonel De 
Kock leave the technical division together on your way to 
Vlakplaas?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

MR LAMEY: Is it correct that Mr Vermeulen, Martiens Ras had 
been summoned to Colonel De Kock's office?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Please repeat the question, I didn't hear it 
properly.

MR LAMEY: Is it correct that after you and Colonel De Kock 
arrived at Vlakplaas, that Mr Vermeulen and Ras and Snyman had 
been summoned to Colonel De Kock's office?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Were you there introduced to these three people, 
Snyman, Vermeulen and Ras?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

MR LAMEY: Is it possible that during this discussion, mention was 
made by yourself of by De Kock that you had come from head 
office?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't remember that specifically.

MR LAMEY: What was the communication made to Ras, Snyman 
and Vermeulen when they were summoned to the office, what was 
said to them?  Was an explanation about the nature of the operation 
given?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, not there.

MR LAMEY: Was that done at a later stage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, it was done later.

MR LAMEY: Where did that take place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That could have been during our journey from 
Port Elizabeth.

MR LAMEY: Was it discussed in more detail then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not in depth, no details were given.

MR LAMEY: Mr Snyman's evidence and his affidavit says that 
Colonel De Kock mentioned that Deon, that is yourself, would later 
tell everything, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

MR LAMEY: Was mention made of trouble caused by a member or 
an askari during this discussion at Vlakplaas with Vermeulen and 
Ras?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not as far as I can recall.

MR LAMEY: What can you remember relating to the operation, the 
nature of the operation and the motive?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: There wasn't much discussion at Vlakplaas.  I 
was introduced to the members and I stood outside and I waited.  I 
waited to leave.

MR LAMEY: Are you saying there wasn't very much time for 
discussions at Vlakplaas?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, we didn't spend much time there.

MR LAMEY: Mr Snyman's recollection is that there was 
recollection of an askari who had been causing trouble and that 
something had to be done about it and that mention was made of 
money that had been stolen and that he was a threat, a risk to the 
other Security Branch members and that he had to go back to the 
ANC, can you recall anything like that being discussed at Vlakplaas?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not at Vlakplaas.  As I have said, it could have 
taken place whilst we were driving.  And perhaps I then told them, 
not in detail, the purpose.

MR LAMEY: Are you saying that you later mentioned the 
motivation for this operation, later when you left Vlakplaas?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.  It could have been mentioned by Mr De 
Kock but I didn't hear that.

MR LAMEY: What exactly was told to these people on the way to 
Port Elizabeth, relating to the motive for the operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think I told them that they were playing a 
double role, and as a result thereof they had put out feelers to go 
over to the ANC and that on the 16th of December, there was the 
plan to place a landmine in one of the vehicles and that they were 
also involved in sensitive operations, some of the members. 
	And that they had also committed fraud, that is all, because I 
had no details about the fraud.

MR LAMEY: Snyman's recollection is also that he had already at 
Vlakplaas gained the impression that it was to be an organised 
operation since members of the technical division were involved.  Do 
you know whether that was mentioned then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It could have been mentioned by Mr De Kock, 
I didn't mention it, but that is so.

MR LAMEY: Snyman says that he also thought and that his 
recollection was that you at some point mentioned that you had 
flown to Pretoria to discuss the situation in Port Elizabeth with the 
General and he will testify that that was General Van Rensburg?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: In Port Elizabeth, Mr Du Toit and members of the 
technical division were mainly involved in the installation of the 
explosive device in the vehicle, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: But that Mr Snyman and Vermeulen and Ras, their 
task was mainly guard duty or to secure the surrounding area?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

MR LAMEY: Snyman also says that he from time to time helped 
with the explosives, can you remember that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR LAMEY: And then is it also correct that on the scene where 
the explosion eventually happened, that Snyman and Ras' role was to 
stand near the crossing and that they had been tasked in case 
something went wrong with the explosion, to shoot the persons?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Were these details discussed beforehand in Port 
Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR LAMEY: How would Snyman and Ras have known that that 
was to be their role?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think that their Commanding Officer would 
have informed them.

MR LAMEY: Weren't they taken to the meeting place beforehand 
to see where it was?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I took them there.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

MR LAMEY: .

CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of taking them there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because they didn't know the area and we were 
only supposed to meet there that evening and I therefore arranged to 
see the deceased at New Brighton and they were to meet at a certain 
time there.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't they ask you what are we going to do 
there, to the place where you are taking us to now?