Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, I appreciate it.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR NDOU: If I may add, the word ...(Venda) in Venda means both appointment and election.  So it's the same word.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I will proceed, thank you.
	Which of the other members who are now making amnesty applications with you, were also on that forum?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I can give you the name of Mr Muladi.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon?  Can you spell that for me, or just repeat his name.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: M-U-L-A-D-I, Abel.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Anyone else?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: M-A-K-A-T-U, Johannes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Andrew.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Andrew who?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: M-A-I-V-H-A, Andrew ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He's not an applicant here.  Those who you have been previously dealt with.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  My question is, you must give us the names of the applicants before this Commission, who were members of that Committee.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you perhaps assist, Mr Ndou, you've got an index there.

MR NDOU: Pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: Could you perhaps assist us, you've got an index there.

MR NDOU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Could the applicant perhaps have a look at the index and tell us whether any of those people mentioned there were committee members or forum members, or on the executive or something in this youth congress.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I could not follow your question.  Therefore I want to submit that among the people who are applying, one person whom I remember is Abel Muladi.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: That's number 1 on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's look at it this way.  Abel Muladi, was he a member of the executive?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I think yes, he was one of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  Mudahu(?)

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Ramasitisi RK?  I don't know what's the RK.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Masithulelea J?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Muhadi?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Rerani?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: de Villiers? - Sihoma(?), was he a member of the executive?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Ja, he was also a marshal.

CHAIRPERSON: We're asking if he was a member of the executive.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Ragwala?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Johanna Mopane Matheba - no, no, sorry.  So we've done all.  So the only person of the applicants who was a member of the executive is Muladi?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, he was with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	And yourself, you were also a member of the executive, coopted as a member.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, like I indicated before.

CHAIRPERSON: The previous witness wasn't a member of the executive, the previous applicant?  You say Ramasitsi.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I must say, I find this strange that you can name the members of the applicants who were on the executive, but you can't remember the name of the chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No that's not absolutely correct, Mr van Rensburg.  What has happened here, I've gone through the names of the applicants and he could say whether they were on the executive or not.  It's quite different from trying to ask a person to try to remember who else was there.  I'm suggesting names to him, I'm giving him names, he's saying look, now that you mention that name, he wasn't or he was.  But to ask him independently to try to remember is another matter.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I can accept that, thank you, Mr Chairman.
	And the chairman of this Mabunga Youth Congress, can you perhaps remember if he took part in the murder and the arson and the actions that took place on the 6th of April?

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

MR VAN RENSBURG: The chairman of this Mahvunga Youth Congress.
	Can you remember if he took part in those actions?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know how fair it is because he doesn't remember who the chairman was.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I can accept if he says he cannot remember.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	The previous witness, I got the impression, gave testimony to the effect that this organisation of yours was not fully formed yet, it was in the process of being formed.  What do you say to that?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well, that's true, it was not fully formed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was it ever formed at a later stage, as a formal organisation, perhaps after the occurrence of the 6th of April?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I do have a problem here, that after the even what happened was that we were later arrested and when we were released on bail we were not really actively involved in what took place before.

MR VAN RENSBURG: If I can refer you to paragraph 7(a) and 7(b) of your application.  7(a) you were requested to state the following
"If you are/were an official/office bearer/member/supporter of any political organisation/institution/body or liberation movements, state the name thereof."
And there you stated:
"ANC."
And also further, at (b), you were requested:
"State capacity in which you served in the organisation/institution/body or liberation movement concerned.  If applicable, and member number if any."
And there you stated:
"Supporter."
Now what I'd like to know from you is, why didn't you state there that you were actually an office bearer of this Mabunga Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: A youth congress is not necessarily a political organisation.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, with all due respect, I think I got the other impression, but I will clear it up in cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, ja, please do.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Well let's get to that first, Mabunga Youth Congress, what was the aim of this association or this organisation?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: The youth congress had a main objective, that when were affiliating under the ANC ...

MR VAN RENSBURG: So were you an organisation with political motives?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you a political organisation?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: It was not fully fledged as an organisation, political organisation.

MR VAN RENSBURG: But surely it was a body was it not, it was an organised body?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Are you referring to the congress, or to ...

MR VAN RENSBURG: The congress.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I'm trying to demonstrate that it was formed so that it will affiliate under ANC, so that it should not be an independent body which didn't have a link with the ANC.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  The question is simple.  Why didn't you write down - in those circumstances, having formed a body with political objectives to be associated or registered or aligned with the ANC, why didn't you write in your application that you were a member of such?  In fact an office bearer of such an organisation.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I knew that I was under the organisation which was affiliating under the ANC.  That is why I talk about ANC specifically.

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, Sir ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: What standard did you reach at school?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I passed standard 10, I reached standard 10.

ADV DE JAGER: Before this incident?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, what standard did you reach in 1990?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I was in standard 9.

ADV DE JAGER: Nine.  This form, whose handwriting is it?  Could you have a look perhaps.  Could you assist him, Mr Ndou?  Page 120, your name, who wrote that?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I wrote it myself.

ADV DE JAGER: Now murder, arson and assault GBH, who wrote that?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: What happened is that as we were filling in these forms ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: No, it's no - because it's a different handwriting here.  I don't want to trick you, I only want to know who wrote it.  Another person?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I think it's another person, one of the people who were there when we were filling in.