Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR DIAZ: Apart from the judgement that I have here for the purpose of the Committee Mr Chairman and Committee members is on page 84 leading up to page 88, Justice Mitchell deals with admissions made by you to Mrs Mkhize, the surviving spouse about the active involvement in the killing of the late Mandla Mkhize.  This submission having been made from your cell rooms to Mrs Mkhize as she passed by you to the toilet and in whose company was Mrs Filicile Kuzwayo, the  surviving spouse of Zazi Kuzwayo, do you recall much talk in the trial about that admission?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do remember that but there are some people that you've left out, Orbit Mthembe as well as Inklanklangwane at Pietermaritzburg.  I do recall all those things that you've mentioned.

MR DIAZ: Do you admit to having made the admission that you did indeed kill Mr Mandla Mkhize?

MR HLOPE: No, I deny that, that was not the truth and I do have testimony that I can bring forth to the Commission negating that so that even the relatives should know and be on the clear that I did not kill Mr Mkhize.  I deny that, I will deny it up till my death.  I do feel for the relatives but I had nothing to do with his death.

MR DIAZ: Well do you recall that from your cell rooms when you talked to Mrs Mkhize in particular, you indicated to her having called her sister Tandi, sister Tandi repeatedly, that you're sorry about what happened but you were forced to do these things, you would go back to court and make an open disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: I think in fairness to him you must tell him that, that was the evidence that was given by her.

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Hlope, evidence given by Mrs Mkhize at the trial against you was to the effect that you had made this admission about your killing, about your having killed Mr Mkhize and that you were forced to do so and that when you returned to court you would make that admission, do you recall that?

MR HLOPE: No, I never admitted that.  I even explained to the Judge because that was not the truth.  I couldn't have admitted to him or denied to him and deny it at a later stage.  I denied it from the onset but Mrs Mkhize was planning against me.  I had asked her to help me with Lindiwe's jersey but I never admitted killing anyone.  Whatever she said in court together with the other witnesses wasn't true, I still deny it even today.  I have no reason why I should deny having killed Mr Mkhize because I've already been convicted, I've come to ask for amnesty here.

MR DIAZ: Do you recall that at that trial your counsel, in trying to explain away this alleged admission of your when cross-examining Mrs Mkhize said the following and this appears from page 87 of the Judgement Mr Chairman, of the record that's been handed to us.  Your lawyer said the following, I quote
"The accused will say that he did tell you that he was not going to hide anything but explain everything that happened".
Do you recall saying that?

MR HLOPE: What I said was that I do not remember whatever they were saying in court and I said that I had told Mrs Mkhize - I was even pointing at Mrs Mkhize and said Mrs Mkhize, if there's anything I know with regard to the death of your husband I'll explain it before this Honourable Court.  I will not speak to you but I will address the Judges when they address me as to what had happened during that time because they kept on asking me at different stages.

MR DIAZ: I would have to deal with this in some detail.  My client Mrs Mkhize says that you are not making an open disclosure truthfully, about your active involvement in the death particularly of Mr Mkhize.  Do you recall on that particular day during the coarse of the trial, having called Mrs Mkhize by saying sister Tandi, sister Tandi?

MR HLOPE: I do not deny that, I do remember that.  I called her because I wanted her to go to my sister so that they could bring me a jersey because she stays next to my sister's place.  I do admit that.

MR DIAZ: Do you recall also that Mrs Mkhize was in the presence of Mrs Kuzwayo, the surviving spouse of Zazi Kuzwayo at the time?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do remember because I was in my cell and they were going past.  The policeman had just taken me out of my cell.

MR DIAZ: Do you also recall that it was a day or two prior to that in fact, on Thursday the 7th of June as is evidence from page 85 of the record, that you were spoken to by Mrs Mkhize who asked you why did you kill my husband and that worried you?

MR HLOPE: I do not remember that.

MR DIAZ: But it was following thereupon that you called Mrs Mkhize sister Tandi, sister Tandi and you said to her you were hearing her voice calling upon you to explain why you killed her husband.

MR HLOPE: I have no knowledge thereof, I deny it.  It's the very first time that I hear it.  As I've already said that I deny having killed Mr Mkhize, I still do even now, I've never killed Mr Mkhize.  If Mrs Mkhize has got any testimony to that effect she can bring it forth before this Commission and I do request the Honourable Commission to further advance some testimony to that effect.
	There's absolutely no reason for me why I should deny it because I believe that I'm disclosing fully whatever I know because I've come here for amnesty, not to waste people's time.

MR DIAZ: ...(inaudible) Mrs Mkhize would be testifying later but I'm cross-examining you on instruction given to me from her for the present.  Now she proceeded during the course of that trial and said the following, an excerpt of which is in the Judgement of the Honourable Judge on page 86 of the record where she said the following
You said to her - that's to Mrs Mkhize - the following words
"I heard the words that you uttered towards me yesterday that I shot your husband"
Do you remember saying this to her?

MR HLOPE: I've never said that.  I've never said that to Mrs Mkhize, I deny it.

MR DIAZ: Then you said to her - words following - as follows and I quote
"I did not do it of my own free will to go and kill brother Mandla here referring to Mandla Mkhize, I had been pressurized or forced by Djamile".
Do you recall saying that?

MR HLOPE: I have absolutely no knowledge thereof.  Mrs Mkhize wants me to say that but I'm not going to admit that.  It doesn't mean that when I've come to ask for amnesty, I'll even admit things that I have no knowledge of.  As I'm explaining to you that I have no knowledge thereof.

ADV DE JAGER: As I understand it, he said to Mrs Mkhize:  "I've heard you telling or saying yesterday that I've killed your husband".  It was she that used the words "killed her husband", am I understanding it correctly?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) are her words, she's giving evidence.  She says she heard him utter these words.  That ...(inaudible)

ADV DE JAGER: That's the problem I'm having.  If you look at the previous sentence, I may say that there is no suggestion that he did not speak freely and voluntary.  He said to her, Mrs Mkhize says so he told Mrs Mkhize:  "I yesterday heard you saying I shot your husband".

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, that is correct, you read the transcript correctly with respect.  My difficulty however is this and this is where it becomes distinguishable, my instructions are whilst those are indeed the words that he uttered, it is also true that the applicant made admissions to Mrs Mkhize to the effect that he, the applicant had caused the death directly of Mandla Mkhize.  And as you would notice from a later reading of the Judgement, those admissions become clearer.

CHAIRPERSON: The court accepted her evidence and on the basis of her evidence, he was convicted.