Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-07

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Yes, I think we did explain that the soft and hard targets, that concept is a foreign concept to us, but to answer you I will say that there was no specific order or direction that the women, as such, be attacked as women, because, I think, you must consider that the South African situation is a mans world and whether by the then oppressors or the oppressed, women were always put aside and in security they played a very minimal role.  So, I will not really give you a satisfactory answer in that direction, but I do not remember specific instruction or orders that women and children must be eliminated and in as far as abuse or rape, I must put it clear that we emphasise in our political education no rape at all.  Whether be it White or European women or African women.
 If there is anybody appealing and is affected in the rape situation, I will, and I must be on record, that if anybody raped anybody in the name of Apla must never be given the benefit of the gesture extended by the President of South Africa and, in the Constitution or the TRC, because rape is not accommodated and was never accommodated and I think we are among the few liberation movements in the world that never experienced that in our camps and I am saying this with emphasis and with clear conscience.  I think that is how I will answer the first question.  
 And then the second question I hope our lady comrades will not feel affected, because there is insinuation that they might not be in a position to be as fluent and as articulate as Brigadier Mofokeng to put across the military line and the political line of the Azanian Peoples' Liberation Army and I must say both men and women in Apla were educated the same and they will put across the line as I have being putting. Of course, members of the leadership are more advanced given our training.  I did not indicate as to what an extent were we trained, but in your questions you did enquire as to what countries offered that and the simple answer in that, I will say we were trained in three continents, that is Asia, Europe and Africa, but I must say we considered women as competent as men in every respect and they were given their rightful place.  That is occupying any positing depending upon their competency and their expertise, their skill and training.
 I do not know whether I do answer the second question or I misunderstood your second question.

MS MKHIZE: Really, the question was, do you think if you had women here their understanding and explanation would have added value to the story that you have articulated before the Commission?

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Yes, I think, other people can elaborate and add.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: As a matter of fact, we have women in senior command positions.  It is unfortunate that they are not part of our delegation today, actually.  I think by their presence they would have added, just like, perhaps, my presence is adding something, because we form part and parcel of the same team.  It would have been best if they were here.  They would contribute, definitely.  Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier Fichler.  Kwani.

KWANI: Yes, I am, I do not know whether I should say I am sorry you did not pursue the question about women in Apla, but I take it that there is no complaint, but I want to put it on record, although the question was not asked, that Apla has a record of treating the women well and equally.  I know there are some instances where it is reported that women were abused in the liberation movements camps.  In the Apla camps there is no record of that happening.  Instead our young men married those girls that they loved and some of them sitting behind me have the wives who are comrades in arms. We have this on record and I think we are proud of that record that we kept our ladies as ladies and when we loved them and they loved us we married them.

CHAIRPERSON: There was a question on reparations and rehabilitation or whether there is any, sort of sense in which there is a debate within the PAC and Apla about what reparatory measures or rehabilitation measures ought to be take or what suggestions you have in regard thereto.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Do you mean within our ranks?

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: I think there is a debate in the organisation about, because the people who were brutalised, our people who were brutalised by the system of apartheid and the existences of the struggle themselves.  Fortunately, we have a lot of trained social workers, people who have been trained in social work and even in the SANDF, I think they are helpful to, sort of, deal with some psychological effects of our people who were traumatised and brutalised by the system of apartheid or even, perhaps, traumatised by the struggle, because even if you carry a gun to go and attack, I mean you are dealing with human beings here, it does have an effect even if you know it is for a good cause, you are an attacking, it does have that kind of effect.  Some efforts are being made to help those comrades psychologically.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: To add on this, counselling is very important.  I think even the Minister of, is it Social Welfare, did indicate earlier on that there is a need not only by the liberation movement, but the nation as a whole to conduct counselling so that we readapt and readjust into the society.  I think it is a national issue and then, secondly, among other things, I will say when we broaden it, that lately we, recently we, the veterans launched what we call the Veterans Association as an attempt, that is that of Apla, as an attempt to rehabilitate them, to cater for their needs and interests and readjust them back into the society and I must say the efforts by the Minister of Defence to integrate the armed forces into the National Defence Force helped a lot in that direction for this, for the freedom fighters to readjust and adapt back into the normal society, because they have been in an abnormal situation for a long time.
 Of course, along the same lines are the question of the special pension fund for the old aged.  So, I can go on and on and on, but I must say we are thankful of the State and the Government of the Republic of South Africa to make effort to accommodate the freedom fighters back to the normal situation. Thank you.