Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR NGUBANE: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now Mr Mkhize, let's just digress a bit from your affidavit and mention some of the incidents that have been brought to my attention and hear your comment on that.  In 1989 a certain gentleman by the name of Gideon Mdletshe who was residing on the periphery of Esikhawini was killed.  Do you know anything about that incident?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes.  I know that Mr Mdletshe was an ANC member.  If I remember correctly Mr Mdletshe was attacked at the time when Vulani was also attacked.  I think it was on the same night that he and Vulani were attacked.  But I do not have knowledge as to who attacked him and how they did this.

MR WILLS: Sorry.  Mr Chairperson, I'm sorry to interrupt.  I've just received some advice from the sound technicians and I just want to make sure that the applicant has got that advice, and that is that he must turn to Channel 2.

DJ MKHIZE: I've already done so.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Ngubane, you can continue.

MR NGUBANE: So is it your evidence then that you were not involved in the planning or the actual execution of the attack on Mr Gideon Mdletshe and Mr Vulani?

DJ MKHIZE: No, I wasn't involved.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  And do you know the prominent medical doctor of Esikhawini, Dr Luthuli who was also killed in this hit squad fashion?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, I was already at Esikhawini when Dr Luthuli was killed.  But I do not have knowledge about his death.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know the people that killed him?

DJ MKHIZE: No, I don't have any knowledge.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know whether his case was successfully investigated?

DJ MKHIZE: I don't have any knowledge about that and I don't know what were the results of the investigation.

MR NGUBANE: Now turning to para 65 of your affidavit, you in your own words have in very bold letters or printing headed that paragraph as a revenge attack for the killing of the Kwazulu policemen.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is what is written.

MR NGUBANE: And do you recall that yesterday you tried to create the impression that that was not a revenge?

DJ MKHIZE: No Sir.  The fact that it is written in this fashion is because what we ultimately did was the results of the death of Sgt Danga after the death of other police officers in the area.  But the heading here was not the objective of the attack at the time.  The objective was what I explained yesterday.  But the statement taker framed it this way.  I think he or she assumed that because of the death of Danga, this was the reason it was carried out and that is why he or she phrased it in this manner.

MR NGUBANE: Do you confirm that at Esikhawini you said that police officers could be divided into different categories; ordinary policemen who were doing police work, IFP members who were policemen and hit squad members who were also policemen?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes.  And also those that I will call ANC sympathizers as well as those that I can say were planted.

MR NGUBANE: Now Constables Mtuntutwa, Makwhe, Nxubane, Mangele, Zuge and Danga were associated to you by the mere fact that they were colleagues.  Is that right?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, they were my colleagues.

MR NGUBANE: You couldn't describe them as your personal friends, the people about whom you knew their private details.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR NGUBANE: And therefore you couldn't say whether they belonged to any political party.

DJ MKHIZE: I think Mangele was an IFP sympathiser.  Although he wasn't actively involved in politics.  But he was a kind of person who spoke his mind.  With reference to Zuge, he was a kind of person that you could not ascertain.  I don't think he was interested or involved in politics.  As well as Danga.
	But having said that, ANC members regarded ZP's as Inkatha members.  That was a known fact.  The ANC did not attack ZP's because they had knowledge that those were IFP members, but merely because they policemen working under the system of the Kwazulu Government.
	This system was known to the ANC as a system of (indistinct) orchestrated by the white government.

MR NGUBANE: And as you stand there you wouldn't vow it affirmatively and say that those policemen were not killed as a result of having created enemies in the course of doing their ordinary police work.

DJ MKHIZE: I think that they were attacked because they were Kwazulu policemen whom the ANC was against.  The ANC held many demonstrations, saying that ZP's should be done away with.  Therefore the animosity between the IFP and the ANC is a well-known fact.  It is something well-known to the Esikhawini community that ZP's were not popular in this area.  And because of their actions such as investigations that they carried out.

MR NGUBANE: But is it also correct that there were police officers who were in the Kwazulu police force who were hated by ordinary criminals because of their actions which were done in the normal course of their duties; not as a result of any political activity?

DJ MKHIZE: I wouldn't deny that Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: And you simply assumed that because these policemen were injured or killed, they were killed just because the people that killed them were ANC people who were against the IFP.

DJ MKHIZE: They were always attacking ANC areas.  And moreover, if there were investigations carried out, there wouldn't be reasons to suggest that they were attacked in pursuance of criminal activities.

MR NGUBANE: And you wouldn't even having people deposing in affidavits, indicating that these people were killed because of their political activities.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: That was precisely the reason, because we thought that this was because of political reasons.

MR NGUBANE: And this gentleman you were looking after, Bafana Jele, alias Mntanda, you looked after him without there being any sworn statement to the effect that he in fact was implicated in the killing or injuring of these policemen.

DJ MKHIZE: Sir, we were not looking for Mntanda, because of police activities.  We wanted him in accordance with our hit squad activities which did not require statements to confirm what he was supposed to have done.  We wanted him because we had received instructions in accordance with our hit squad activities.

MR NGUBANE: Well, but in your affidavit the last but one sentence in para 65 you say
"Bafana Jele, alias Mntanda was suspected to be one of the main perpetrators of the killing."
Therefore you looked after him specifically because he was suspected of having injured or killed this policemen.

DJ MKHIZE: This word "suspected" refers to information that we had from the local leadership of the IFP.  I use this word because there was no way that I could confirm this information from the local leadership, whether it was indeed true.  And it was not my duty to confirm it.

MR NGUBANE: Now Mr Mkhize, this flat where you suspected that the MK people were harboured, was it in the hostel?

DJ MKHIZE: When you speak of hostels, I think prominent ANC hostels were Singonbele and one belonging to the railway and another one in J1 and another one near Mangonini Superette.

MR NGUBANE: Yes.  In anyone of them?

DJ MKHIZE: If I speak of flats I'm not talking about this three I've mentioned already.  I'm speaking about a house, or rather a flat and not hostels.

MR NGUBANE: Well, I have instructions that Matilda was staying in a house which was far away from any structure which could be described as a flat.  Do you agree?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes.  I agree.  I will explain this.