Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter could not hear the last part of the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you repeat that Mr Gushu please?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I went to Piet Retief because I was instructed to do so.  I was not a resident of Piet Retief.  I got there two weeks before the incident.  I would not have a whole lot of knowledge of detail as to who was protecting Msibi.
	I only knew what danger those people posed to the ANC, COSATU and the Communist Party.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, if I now understand your evidence correct, you did not know that Mr Themba Mlangeni was his, Mr Msibi's bodyguard?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Anybody that was with Msibi so closely was his guard.  I only knew that this person was Themba Mlangeni after I was arrested, I did not even know his name beforehand.

ADV SANDI: I think Ms Van der Walt, what is being attempted to be put to you is that the witness did not know specifically the names of those people who were security guards to the deceased, but he did however know that he had security guards.  He didn't know their names, and later he got to know that this Mlangeni was one of them.

MS VAN DER WALT: He did not know about the person, in the last discussion when I asked him, Mr Mlangeni, if he was the bodyguard, he said no, he did not know he was the bodyguard.
	I would like to refer to his statement where he directly mentions, but he had answered the question now, thank you.
	Sir, I would like to know from you when were you arrested?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was arrested on the 17th of July 1992.  To this day I am still in custody.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Keswa, he is with you in prison in Barberton, or was with you, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, together with Msibi, we are all in the same prison.

MS VAN DER WALT: This Mr Msibi that you are talking about is Mdu?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, he is the one.

MS VAN DER WALT: Since when have you been together in prison with these two people?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I got to Barberton on the 16th of April 1992.  I don't know how long they had been there.

MS VAN DER WALT: You are making a mistake with the date, because you said you were arrested in July 1992 and you are saying now that since the 16th of April you were transferred.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: You are often mistaken.  I am telling you I was arrested on the 17th of July 1992.  When I speak of how I got to Barberton in 1996, I had been transferred to Barberton.

MS VAN DER WALT: So from 16 April 1996, you for the first time spent time with Keswa and Msibi in Barberton, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you remember precisely or let me rather point it out to you, according to your amnesty application, the official document, the date is rather unclear.  If you will just look at page 25, could you please assist the Honourable Committee because it appears to have been sworn in at the Barberton prison as 10 December 1996.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: What I see here is 16-08-1995.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that 1995?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It is written 16-08-1995 here.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you very much.  The first statement which you made, unfortunately I was not present so I am not entirely sure when the first statement was received by the Committee, if I can just get the date.
	Thank you Mr Chairperson, it is ...

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt, is this an attempt to cut things short, because what I am about to say is an attempt to cut things short?
	Is it your instructions from Mr Msibi, what this witness has described as to what happened in front of his shop, is not true?

MS VAN DER WALT: What this witness has described in the rest of his testimony, is to be argued.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are we going if what they have said, did in fact take place?

MS VAN DER WALT: With respect, I think that the surrounding circumstances as to why he went there and everything with regard to Mr Msibi, in terms of what a terrible man he would have been, have to be determined, because it appears rather clearly that this is hearsay.

CHAIRPERSON: Madam, might I just point the following out:  If there was no order such as what he described, then you probably do have a very good point.  If there was such an order, then it is the end of the case.
	But I am sure that you will agree with me that we are not here to look after the characters of people, is that not so?

MS VAN DER WALT: I don't wish to go into his character, but the full truth and not a twisted form of the truth, has to be placed before you because it is all very fine and well to tell Mr Hlaza or to say that Mr Hlaza is the one who gave the order, but he is dead.

CHAIRPERSON: We have also heard that from Mr Le Grange on a previous occasion, but the fact remains are we in a position to say that there was or wasn't such an order as he has alleged?
	However, to continue with all this uncertainty in the hope of establishing something, I don't know where this will take us.  All I know is that we have reached the third day of these proceedings and we are busy with the third witness and if we continue in this manner, we will not have concluded our business by next week, Friday.

MS VAN DER WALT: It would appear that way, yes.  I see your point.
	Sir, it would appear quite clearly that what you have said here about Mr Msibi shows that you had no knowledge thereof, it was told to you after you had arrived in Prison from Keswa and Mdu Msibi, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I am going to answer you in this way, I did have information from Hlaza, also what an obstacle or danger this person is to the ANC, Communist Party and COSATU.  That knowledge or information was enough for me.
	As a soldier, following orders, I had to do my job.  I could not look into detail as to what he is doing, when, how.  I just had to follow orders and go and kill him.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Gushu, I think what the Advocate is putting to you is that the knowledge you had, was knowledge you had acquired from other people, and not knowledge that you had personally.  I think that was all she was trying to put to you, is that correct, that you had acquired the knowledge about Mr Msibi from other people, you had not experienced it first hand?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.  That is how I worked.  I received information from my leaders and I followed the orders.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would also like to put it to you further that you are prepared to place anything in your statement simply to qualify for amnesty and so you mentioned the names of two Police Officers, Warrant Officer Pienaar and Sergeant Mkhwanazi which you have never met before.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The interpretation did not come through, I do not understand Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Can the interpretation be repeated please?

INTERPRETER: Can the question be repeated please, so that it can be interpreted?

CHAIRPERSON: Will the question be repeated?

MS VAN DER WALT: You are prepared to place anything in your statement in order to qualify for amnesty and that is why without having any knowledge, you placed the names of two Police Officers, Warrant Officer Pienaar and Sergeant Mkhwanazi, that is what you heard according to your own evidence, from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

ADV SANDI: Yes, but sorry Ms Van der Walt, isn't that a very broad question to put to the witness?  Has he not told us that he had received pieces and pieces of information, and a lot of it he had no direct knowledge of, he had no personal knowledge of many of these things?
	Why don't you put it to him as to whether he had known these people personally, this Mr Pienaar and Mr Mkhwanazi.