Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we heard about it last week, it was started off by Operation Katzen in which Mr Charles Sebe played a role.  In fact the reason why he was in Transkei when you met him, was because he had been freed from prison.  This was after the stop of Katzen, but he had been freed from - well, not after the stopping of Katzen, during Katzen, he had been freed by certain forces working with the view of ultimately forming a so-called Xhosaland, a united Xhosa nation including Ciskei, Transkei as one nation.  What Mr Mbandazayo is asking, your association with this incident now, was it in any way linked to that objective of unifying Ciskei and Transkei into one nation?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Mr Chairperson, may I - I am not a political analyst, so I can only give you my opinion, but I think what I would like to point out here is the Ciskei, Charles Sebe association was in 1988.  The abduction of Mr Mbotoli was in 1991.  I don't want to see those two things mixed together, because they have got nothing to do together.  At that time, in 1988, there was interest from the Transkei to get rid of Lennox Sebe and put in Charles Sebe for - okay, I didn't know at that time, the expression or this unified type Xhosaland, but there was definitely at that time, interest from the Transkei government to not necessarily unify, but get a government into the Ciskei which they can deal on a more friendly basis.  This is what I am talking from 1988 where I was associated with Charles Sebe.  In 1991 at the time of the abduction of Mr Mbotoli, a similar scenario was in place, the only thing is this, if you take it mathematically, the 1988 situation was a plus situation, the 1991 situation, was a minus situation, where this was a reversed attempt to unify the Ciskei and the Transkei, in this particular incident, supported by the South African government, in order to prevent the liberation movement to have a base.  Does that answer your question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, exactly, you have got me there.  You have managed to get to the crux of my question.  Then my question is that, I am not saying, I want just in your opinion, what do you say to that, if somebody says your reason then to be involved in kidnapping of Vulindela Mbotoli was that after that whatever, unification that whichever manner, was because now you will be able to get back to your business interest in Ciskei?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: No, first of all, the intention of unification was in 1988 and I admit there was some business interest there.  In 1991, the objective of the abduction of Mr Mbotoli was to prevent the unification.  To prevent a unification because at that time it was Oupa Gozo in the Ciskei and if a unification in the sense of Charles Sebe, then one would have tried to withdraw Oupa Gozo.  What I am saying is in 1991, we were trying to prevent a unification.  Besides everything else, in 1991, my business in the Ciskei was financially and whatever, finished.  In late 1989, for a simple reason that if I was refused bail for ten months, if you want exactly, 299 days, now you cannot run a business from Johannesburg Central Prison.  So by the time I was released on bail and by the time the trial was over, which was in 1990, there was nothing left in the Ciskei any more, so other than going as a tourist, I could have no interest whatsoever.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, my follow up question will be on this kidnapping, at the time you were involved at the kidnapping of Vulindela Mbotoli, what was - yourself, what were you trying to achieve?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Okay, when you say what was myself trying to achieve?

MR MBANDAZAYO: If I can say your political objective?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Look, my political objective at that time, okay, I had a personal objective and I had a political objective.  The personal objective was that I did not want to see Mr Mbotoli have any physical harm done to, this was my personal objective.  My political objective was that I was prepared to assist wherever necessary to prevent a coup in the Transkei at the time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct, though you did not have any interest in the Transkei of whatever nature?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I don't quite understand your question.  I did not have business interests in the Transkei, but I was and I have been in South Africa now for 30 years, and I am not 50, I think 57 years old.  I have no intention going back to Europe and this was the same which was already in 1991.  I was interested and call this my political interest, that the transition in South Africa from the old government to the new government, goes as smoothly as possible and that nobody tries to put another spoke in the wheels in the last moment.  This is what, to my opinion at that time, was happening in the Transkei.  This is why I got involved.  The political aspect, I would not limit to Transkei because at that time, I think you were talking already a unified South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Mbandazayo is getting at Mr Moringer is, if one just takes a look at it, you are living in Johannesburg, you are an Austrian citizen, you've got no vested interest at all in Transkei, okay you've got contacts, you have been there before, but you've got no vested interests, one would imagine in a situation like that, that you didn't feel with any great passion, that you should put your liberty on the line by (indistinct) in the kidnapping.  If you got caught at the kidnapping, that night, on the 12th of April, you will go to jail for many years, it is a very serious offence, and I think this is what Mr Mbandazayo is trying to find out, why would you risk, place yourself at that risk for something that you probably didn't feel very passionately about, after all Transkei was so-called independent country where you had no vested interest, yet, you were putting yourself on the line?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Mr Chairperson, to answer one point you raised there, was that I was fully aware that if something would have gone wrong at the time, that obviously I would have to face criminal charges.  On the other hand, at that time was the opinion, otherwise I think one wouldn't do the planning and all this, that the plans for the operation, were properly thought through.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think any person who gets involved in a serious crime that requires planning such as kidnapping or robbing a bank or whatever, involves himself in planning, but would you involve yourself, let's say in the robbing of a bank, in the planning, the set up and even in the execution and get no cut from it?  Would you place yourself at that sort of risk to get no cut, I think this is what Mr Mbandazayo is getting at - why did you, what is, why did you actually do it, were you sucked into it, did you feel very passionately about Transkei?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Okay, I think there is an answer to that as well.  Maybe not necessarily the answer you were thinking of, but one should go back to when - as you are aware, I have been in touch and in contact with Colonel Mzwaiba and Military Intelligence in the Transkei over a long period before that.  This was to a great extent exchanging information, getting politically updated what is happening there and this.  Then, I have been approached to assist in locating Mr Mbotoli, which is the, the request which came to me for assistance, is a result of our ongoing discussions and my being in Johannesburg.  Now as I explained earlier, my recommendation at that time was not to assassinate Mr Mbotoli, but rather take him to the Transkei and debrief him there.  By making this suggestion, I was also sort of approached and said okay, and I am putting it in very simple words now, this was your idea, then you are responsible for it.  Does that answer your question in this regard?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I don't think you answer my question, but I will pass that one, it is not necessary.