Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR DLAMINI: (Inaudible) ... or not that a culture of tolerance is developingin your area, and we appreciate it, we hope it's going to continue on that note.My second question. You made a request here from the Commission to help youwith - in order to be able to support your family. Can I check whether you doget any State pension or grant?

WITNESS: Yes, I do get some pension money.

MR DLAMINI: How much is it?

WITNESS: It is R405,00. It's R405,00. I am not makinga mistake, it's R405,00. I get that at the bank in Thaba Nchu.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Babu Pistol. Thank you.

MR DLAMINI: You said that you have got two sons, one is mentally disturbed.Is he getting any medical treatment?

WITNESS: No, he is not under any medical treatment.I took him to the doctor for quite a long time, but they couldn't find anythingwrong with him.

MR DLAMINI: What is his name?

WITNESS: He is Charlie Pistol.

MR DLAMINI: Mr Pistol, thank you very much for coming to tell us your storytoday. It is a very sad thing that one of the

MR DLAMINI: common themes that we have noticed during the course of listeningto evidence around this country is the deep lack of respect shown to elderlypeople during the course of political conflict. One can explain this - or onecan analyse it and explain it to some extent by saying that as this countrymoved towards political liberation many young people became angry and frustratedat the unwillingness or the failure of some older people to join in their struggle,but nevertheless it is very sad to hear about an old person like yourself beingbeaten with iron bars merely for attending a political rally.

MR DLAMINI: We are fortunate now that we have a constitution and a policeforce to protect our right to express ourselves freely, and we must work hardand vigilantly at protecting the system that so many people have fought so hardfor.

MR DLAMINI: You have said that you were assaulted by Comrades who belongedto the ANC, and we've also heard evidence this morning from ANC members whowere beaten and killed by members of the party that you belong to, the DikwankwetlaParty. Now, our job is not to lay blame, but our job is to record the evidenceand to analyse the evidence, and to note that it was the political system thatoperated in this country at the time that allowed these sorts of violationsto take place, and to make recommendations to the Government to ensure thatthese sorts of things can never happen again.

MR DLAMINI: So thank you again for coming and giving us your evidence.I feel sorry for you, and I am sure there are many out here in the hall, andthose people who have  listened to your evidence on the radio, who also feel sorryfor you. Thank you very much?

WITNESS: Thank you very much, Sir.

MR LYSTER: If you could just take a seat and put theearphones on, Mr Motlale, and please confirm whether you can hear me while Iam speaking. Are you able to hear me well enough? Thank you very much for comingin today. You are from Thaba Nchu, and you will tell us a story about what happenedto you in June 1984,. Before you tell your story please will you stand so thatyou can take the oath.

SHUPING JOSIAH MOTLALE: (Sworn, States)

MR LYSTER: I will be assisting you today in the leadingof your evidence. Your full name is Shuping Josiah Motlale, is that correct?--- Yes, that's correct.

MR LYSTER: And you live in Zone Three in Thaba Nchu, is that right? ---That's correct.

MR LYSTER: Now, this event that you will tell us about took place in ThabaNchu in June 1984, is that right?

WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.

MR LYSTER: Can you just tell us briefly, at that time were you married,were you living in Thaba Nchu? Tell us a little bit about your personal background.--- I am married, and I am staying in Thaba Nchu. I am working in Mafikeng.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... us about what happened to you in June 1984.I understand at the time that you were a member of the Bophutatswana Police,is that correct?

WITNESS: Yes, that's correct.

MR LYSTER: Okay, thank you. Can you tell us what happened in June 1984?--- In June 1984 I was working in Mafikeng. I was in the Parliament. I receiveda telegram from home which reported that my father - my brother had died. Itook this telegram and gave it to the sergeant with whom I was working because it was late. He released me and toldme that he'll report on my behalf that I had left, I must hurry home. I hurriedhome. We didn't actually talk as to how many days I would take off. (Pause)

MR LYSTER: Sorry, I know that these are painful memories for you to gothrough again, Mr Motlale, so just take your time in answering and just tryand relax. We're here to listen to your story in a supportive way and to sympathisewith you.

WITNESS: Then I took 19 days so that I could be able to prepare for theburial, go to insurance companies. When I went back to Mafikeng I got thereand I reported at the charge office that I was present. I was told to go backto the Parliament. I was working at six in the morning. When I got there at6 o'clock in the morning to start my duties two sergeants came in. At that timewhen they came they were already insulting me, swearing at me, and they weretelling me that I am an informer and I am poor. I could not answer them. Untilone of them said they were going to arrest this dog. I didn't answer them. Theytook me to the cells, they took out my uniform. That is when they told me thatthey are going to search me for my cards, or ANC cards. I explained to themthat I was not a member of the ANC, I didn't even belong to any political organisation,but they nevertheless arrested me. They kept me in custody. Maybe they thoughtthat I was going to give a statement and explain to the Magistrate as to whatwas happening. On the very same day of the arrest, round about 12 midnight,two sergeants arrived. It was Mutsamayi and Marume. When they came they tookme, they put me into the back of the van, where there was a dog, and there wasalso a sack. They made this sack wet and they started assaulting me with it until they took me backto the charge office. When we got there they got out some electrocuting equipment.They told me that I should tell them about all the other organisations whichwere affiliated to the ANC. They told me I was an ANC informer. It was on thevery same week that Mangope was arrested. That was when Metsing was going tosign a contract. I believe I stayed for two weeks. I couldn't appear in court,I couldn't do anything. One evening they came to me. Then during the day theywould give me rice water. After that two weeks my mother heard news that I hadbeen arrested. (Pause)

MR LYSTER:  Mr Motlale, we know that this is upsetting for you. You saidyour mother had heard that you'd been arrested, and did she assist you in beingreleased from prison?

WITNESS: I must tell you I don't have parents. It's actuallymy sister who heard that I was arrested, and she went to Mafikeng to searchfor me. When she arrived in Mafikeng she stayed in Mafikeng searching for mefor three consecutive days. (Pause) On the fourth day they took her at about6 o'clock in the afternoon and they dropped her at Schweizer-Reineke River.They undressed her and they assaulted her.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... policemen were, Mr Motlale? Were they membersof the Bophutatswana Police Force?

WITNESS: These were my colleagues. I know themperfectly well.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... after you've given your evidence.