Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Mapoma, may I just confirm that I believe you are part of the team that is representing the victims?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I thank you for that opportunity.  In fact that's an issue that I wanted to raised before the Committee and everybody involved at these hearings.  Chairperson, it is not correct that I am acting for the victims in this particular matter because there are legal representatives who have been appointed by the TRC to act for the victims in this particular matter.  My duty is that of a Leader of Evidence and I consider my responsibility, Chairperson, as to assist the Committee by making sure that whatever evidence is available it is brought before the Committee.  I must, Chairperson, explain that in the process I do speak to the victims.  In fact they come to me to ask for some questions regarding the process itself and in that process then I do communicate to them.  It is not correct to say that I consulted with the victims with a view to presenting evidence from them, that has not happened.  All I did
was to answer questions that come from victims regarding this matter.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I be allowed to say something? It just occurred to me that Mr Mapoma might quite rightly think that I was criticising him, but that wasn't the point at all, although I must tell you that we've been constantly surprised by the way in which the Amnesty process has happened, that you find yourself confronted with multiple opponents for the same victims, but we've let that go by, Chairperson, we haven't made any point and nor are we making any point about it today.  The only point here was that on what seemed to be a crucial issue, among all these people, nobody ever put it to anybody and that is the only point which I was trying to make, it was not meant as criticism against Mr Mapoma.  In any Commission of Inquiry, you always have a Leader of Evidence whose duty, as we understand the law, has always been to assist the Committee either for or against the applicant, although I must say in this process it's always against the applicants, but be that as it may, but I am certainly not criticising Mr Mapoma in the role that he played here and I hope that that will be accepted as not having been criticism about him.

CHAIRPERSON: We all are in the legal profession.  We execute our duties and whatever obtains during a trial, we take it that it is not referred to me per se, it's just for the execution of the duties.  We appreciate that.  I think you accept that too, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson I did not at all take it as a criticism on me, but the import of it Chairperson, what I want to correct, is an impression that is going to be given that the evidence that is given by the victims here is an evidence that is as a result of consultation between the victims and myself ...(indistinct) persons.  I want that to be clear Chairperson, that is not the case.

CHAIRPERSON: I do appreciate, because we are so to speak in the same stable, I do appreciate that, but would you want to ask some questions here, Mr Mapoma?  I was approaching it actually from that angle because you will recall that the witness Mrs Mokhele, when she said legal representatives, you were in that stable as well, so I just wanted to be absolutely certain.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I appreciate that Chairperson, thank you for that.

MR MAPOMA: Mrs Mokhele, before the child was brought to you, did you have any contact with Nomasonto?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: No, Chairperson, there was no contact.

MR MAPOMA: When last did you have contact with Nomasonto, if at all you did have contact with her?  Okay, let me do it this way - sorry Chairperson.  Let me ask you like this.  After Nomasonto left South Africa, did you ever have contact with her?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And after the child was brought to you, did you ever have contact with her?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: No, Chairperson, there was no contact.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, any re-examination ?

MR MALINDI: None Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Members of the Panel, do you have any questions for the witness?

MR LAX: Just one, Chairperson, from my side.  Did you find out about the child's birth when the child was born, or after the child was born, of after the child was born, before the child was brought to you?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So did you not even know that Nomasonto had a child?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: I did not know Chairperson.

MR LAX: So it must have been a very big surprise to you when two unknown men arrive at your house with a child and they say:  "This is your son and daughter-in-law's child"?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes, Chairperson, that was a surprise.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni.

MR SIBANYONI: Was your son married to Nomasonto?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: They were not married legally.

MR SIBANYONI: But you were aware of the relationship between them?   The relationship between Tsietsi and Nomasonto?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes I knew, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: When these two men brought the child to you, didn't you ask them why they don't take it to the mother's parental home?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: I just accepted the child.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Malindi anything arising from what the Panel asked?

MR MALINDI: Nothing Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser, anything?

MR VISSER: No thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Nothing, Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Mokhele, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Who is your next witness, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I beg leave to call Mrs Mashiya.

CHAIRPERSON: She may take her place next to you.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, you may proceed.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Mrs Mashiya, are you the mother of Nomasonto Mashiya?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Who is one of the people who are subject of this hearing who disappeared since they went into exile?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: That is so.

MR MALINDI: I would like you to tell the Committee when Nomasonto left South Africa for exile.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: In 1987, I have forgotten, it can be around 1977.

MR MALINDI: Since she left for exile, were you able to communicate with her whilst she was outside of South Africa?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, with a letter.

MR VISSER: I'm terribly sorry, Chairperson, I didn't get the question.  Could it possibly be repeated for me?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you do that please, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Sure, Chairperson.  Since Nomasonto left South Africa for exile, were you able to communicate with her?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, Chairperson, through letters she was writing to me, she was writing to us.

MR MALINDI: Do you remember how often she used to write to you?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: It could have been about four to five times.

MR MALINDI: When was the last time that she communicated with you?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I do not remember, but she wrote to us.  I don't know whether it was when she wanted to come back, that's when she told us that she was pregnant.

MR MALINDI: As far as you can remember, was the last communication when she told you that she was pregnant?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, she did write to us after that.  She continued writing to us, that was not the last time.

MR MALINDI: Then you knew that she was pregnant and did you ever meet the child, if the child was born?