Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, but then you were saying that you know you had used unmarked cars before and those were the ones that had become very successful.  What I am asking is why didn't you continue to use unmarked cars, why did you choose to use a Railway truck, to use crates, for purposes of doing that which other methods of the nature you have described had ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: It's the same thing we used, we just used a different type of vehicle.  Previously we had also used an open truck but this truck had become known.  So we couldn't send in that particular vehicle or truck any longer, we had to use a different one.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you seriously suggesting that you have been using one truck that had now become notorious in the Athlone area and to use that truck you would have been exposing yourselves as yourselves, are you serious in that contention?
 Are you saying the South African Defence Force, the Railway Police and the South African Police had only one vehicle that they had used to achieve those successes that they only had to use that truck and no other truck, is that your contention?

UNKNOWN: No that's not what I am saying.  I am saying that the truck previously used wasn't available for use ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: And so, and so what ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Please give me a chance to answer the question.  The truck previously used had become known, that is quite correct, and nothing prevented us to use other vehicles.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, so why didn't you use other vehicles?

UNKNOWN: But we did, that's exactly what we did, we used a different one to the one we used normally.

MR NTSEBEZA: And the crates, what was the justification for the crates?

UNKNOWN: The crates were used to conceal the Police officers.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you not have to conceal the police officers in the previous operations where you had used unmarked cars?

UNKNOWN: Yes we did.

MR NTSEBEZA: In what way did you conceal the Police in the other previous operations?

UNKNOWN: They were hiding under a piece of canvas.

MR NTSEBEZA: You could have used a piece of canvas in this instance, couldn't you?

UNKNOWN: It would have been very difficult to use canvas.  If a petrol bomb had been launched ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: It had not been difficult before, it had not been difficult before.

UNKNOWN: I told you just now it all depends on the circumstances.

MR NTSEBEZA: What were the circumstances?

UNKNOWN: You have to look at the circumstances of a particular case.  A decision is taken based on circumstances.

MR NTSEBEZA: You see you must understand that since this incident started, through the inquest courts, through the Supreme Court as it then was known, there has always been a suggestion that this was a premeditated attack that the police deliberately went into a built-up community with the express purposes of luring people to attack them so that they could retaliate, to make a lesson, to make a statement.  Now I am not the one that must say that, and I don't expect you to say that, but I must be able to be satisfied from what you say that those conclusions can be drawn and I can only do so by patiently asking you why you chose one method when you had the other method.  You are very vociferously saying that was not your intention.
 And I think the Commission must be able to say Brigadier Loedolff is correct, that was not the intention and it can do so when we are able to find out why you do this thing and not the other, do you appreciate that?
 Now you say it was everything depended on the circumstances, I just want to know what were these circumstances on this particular day that caused you to use a truck, hide the police in crates when you had used a method previously where you just hid them under a canvas?

UNKNOWN: I will try and explain the situation to you.  There had been cases where buses had been attacked and where the attacks were specifically aimed at buses.  In those cases we concealed policemen inside the buses and when the bus was attacked the policemen then acted and performed arrests.
 We used this other vehicle, which I told you about, in which we concealed people under a piece of canvas, but you must look at what is happening at a particular time and at a particular place and what the norm is.  Is it only a matter of stone-throwing or is it a matter of petrol bomb attacks or what are these circumstances.  And on operation must be performed taking into account the safety of the police officers to be used in this operation and that is what we did.  The circumstances were such that we felt that the policemen should hide in crates.  As I've said, because circumstances forced us to do that.

MR NTSEBEZA: What were the circumstances?  Just speak in ordinary layperson's language that we can understand. Say facts and not just - what were the circumstances, what was it that caused you - was it because ...(intervention)
Just - yes......

UNKNOWN: There were many petrol bomb attacks and if you hide people underneath a piece of canvas and a petrol bomb lands on top of this canvas it would burn.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now before this operation and after it, had there been any suggestion made that petrol bombs were being hurled at motorists or vehicles travelling into that area?

UNKNOWN: Yes, you can look at the video, and in the video you will see a petrol bomb being thrown.

MR NTSEBEZA: And what was your assessment of the success or otherwise of this particular operation as a person who had given the orders?

UNKNOWN: This specific operation?   We were successful in a sense that we managed to perform quite a number of arrests, but the death of these people were unforeseen and we are sorry about that.  But I see in the information you gave us there is information regarding October and attacks that took place and I will just read you the note here under the 15th, I am just referring to the 15th of October '85.  There was a stone-throwing incident, arson, petrol bombs - 10 incidents; marches 18, robbery and looting, a number of cases, so we had 88 cases for that particular day in these areas so you must agree with me or you must concede in circumstances such as these, where there were so many petrol bomb attacks I couldn't send in my people and expose them to petrol bomb attacks without giving them some form of protection.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now I don't understand, is the suggestion that if you petrol bomb the crate, people who are in a crate are less vulnerable than people who are hiding under a canvas if a petrol bomb is thrown, is that the suggestion?

UNKNOWN: No, that is not what I am saying.  They could just escape much quicker, with more ease.

MR NTSEBEZA: From crates?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And not from under a canvas?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would it therefore be your conclusion that crates were much more effective in that form of operation and was it your further conclusion that crates should be used in similar operations in the future?

UNKNOWN: I didn't arrange any similar things in future, but in this particular instance, yes, I thought it would be more effective to use crates.

MR NTSEBEZA: But on the 25th of March 1986 you did order a sortie into Guguletu did you not, with Captain Bester, you gave orders that a patrol, an unmarked vehicle manned by members of the South African Police and the South African Railway Police should go through Guguletu, Crossroad areas, do you recall that?

UNKNOWN: No, perhaps if you could give me some further details.