Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

DR RANDERA: Andries, are you okay?   Andries, I just want to understand a little better as to what was going on.  Were you involved in any political structures of Huhudi at the time?

ANDRIES KOTO: Yes, I was involved in a political organization because I belonged to the UDF.

DR RANDERA: And in all this torturing that took place by the police, even after you had, what sounds like a major operation on you stomach, what was it they wanted you to say MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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to them?  What was it they wanted you to make in the statement?

ANDRIES KOTO: In my statement they wanted me to say or tell them about the politics.   I told them I don't know anything about the politics.  All I wanted was for all our people to unite and be one thing.

DR RANDERA: About the politics - can you tell us a bit more about these politics that they wanted to know more about.

ANDRIES KOTO: They said we were stone throwers, we burnt people's houses, we are stealing people's cars and that wasn't the truth.

DR RANDERA: You said you made many many statements.   Before that the last thing you said was that at the last meeting you had with the police there were some UDF lawyers present as well.  Am I right?

ANDRIES KOTO: Yes, you are right sir.

DR RANDERA: And that the policemen were also very drunk on that occasion.

ANDRIES KOTO: Yes, they were not happy at all.

DR RANDERA: Were the UDF lawyers present at this time?

ANDRIES KOTO: Yes, they were present at the time.

DR RANDERA: Andries, what do you think happened to your statement at the end?

ANDRIES KOTO: I don't know what happened to my statement.  They just said to me that I will go to court but I never went there.

DR RANDERA: You contacted your UDF lawyers?

ANDRIES KOTO: Yes, I contacted them, but they disappeared.  I don't know there whereabouts now.   I last saw them on that day in 1993.
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DR RANDERA: It seems to me that of all the statements we have heard from Huhudi from yesterday and today whether people were tortured or people died, nothing seemed to happened.  Either from the police or from the magistrates.  Would you agree with that?  Why you think that was?

ANDRIES KOTO: Investigations were not made because if you have given them the statement they didn't take the statement to the magistrate.  They ended only with the police.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I would like to know whether you have any injuries or pains in your body which you can tell the Commission about.

ANDRIES KOTO: Yes, I'm having pains with this operation and my right hand is not functioning well.   Even the temporary jobs I'm trying to find I can't really achieve them because I work only for a days and then I have to quit.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koto, the date that you were arrested was on the 27th of November.  This morning we heard evidence from Meyer Galeng that his house was burnt down on the 23rd of November.  So it was at a period of relative heavy unrest and fighting I would assume.  Is that correct?

ANDRIES KOTO: Yes, that is true, because on that day of the 27th - I try to forget that day - I didn't think there would be such chaos, I didn't think that we would receive such hell, but what I know is that Mr Galeng's house was burnt the day before I was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: I heard also Mr Galeng telling us in the follow-up testimony that there was indeed an attack on some of the collaborators or informers, or there was some conflict there and two people were burnt, one to death and the other escaping with injuries.
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 Did the police not ask you on the 27th about those incidences?  Did they ask you anything that went before, specifically.

ANDRIES KOTO: The policemen didn't ask me questions.  In fact, what they told me was that I must be one of the people who burnt the two ....

CHAIRPERSON: So they accused you basically of being involved in the burning of the two?

ANDRIES KOTO: Yes, they were suspecting that I was one of the people who burnt those two.

CHAIRPERSON: The previous day, according to research information there was this big meeting, where about 600 people attended, were you at that meeting, or can you not recall that?

ANDRIES KOTO: No, I can't recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera asked you about your involvement in politics and you said you were involved because you belonged to the UDF.  Did you take any active role, were you a member of a committee or were you just simply a member?   Were you active in the organization as such?

ANDRIES KOTO: Will you repeat the question please.

CHAIRPERSON: My apologies.  My question really relates to what you role within the UDF or youth organizations at the time was.  You did give evidence that you were a member of the UDF, but were you active in the structures?

ANDRIES KOTO: The role I played in the UDF was that of enhancing, trying to enhance unification.  We wanted to do away with the operation from Inkatha and the police, because when they saw you walking in a group of three or four they would hit you with teargas, with an Inkatha van in front and the police at
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the back.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a Chairperson or a Committee member of any organization or were you just an ordinary card-carrying member?   Or just a supporter perhaps?

ANDRIES KOTO: I was just an ordinary member.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

DR RANDERA: Andries, we thank you that you have come here to give you testimony and tell us what happened to you.   The most dreadful thing is the fact that even after the operation at your stomach, people still kicked you on that operation scar.

MS SEROKE: ... treatment that activist suffered at the hands of the security police. And this case shows that the way they have tortured you and the things the policemen were doing in your area.
 Since yesterday, we see that the pattern of torture conducted by the policemen involved electric shocks, being applied to the private parts of other people, and also it shows this place Lang Boom where people were taken to for torture.   
 We thank you for your coming and we trust and hope that you'll get some help and you will be able to get back to normal.