Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, the first time I contacted Lafras Luitingh and this was in January 1989, and this I read up on, in 1989 Lafras Luitingh during a co-ordinating session asked me if I knew the name Anton Lubowski.  I said no, and I asked him if it was a Russian person.  He said no, this specific Lubowski was involved in SWAPO and in South-West Africa, more specifically.
	Mr Luitingh then asked me, because I had contacts there and we have discussed it before, contacts with the Security Branch and other contacts, and he asked me if I could collect information concerning the movements of Lubowski in South-West Africa.
	I said "yes, I had a few contacts", of people who worked with me on a certain Branch and I had contact with them from time to time, but it is not the type of people that I could use or approach for this project.
	I realised then that the CCB was really interested in Lubowski.  It was also told to me that South-West Africa was now a priority area.

MR COETZEE: After this initial information that you received on Lubowski, did you have any further involvement in Adv Lubowski?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I did.  In June 1989 I was approached by a person by names of Kobus le Roux.  He introduced himself to me and he said that he was also attached to the CCB and that he, it was also his real name, that he was serving in the South-West Africa district and he asked me if I could function or assist him there.
	I was in the establishment phase of the buying of a house, not long after I was released from prison, and I said "no, I cannot see my way clear of going there permanently" and he asked me if I could go there part time, or work on a part time basis.  I said "yes".  There were a few meetings between the two of us.  I left for South-West Africa, Namibia.  Certain arrangements were made with me, that I would book into a hotel there in Windhoek and then contact Kobus le Roux on this side and give details about where I was.
	Everything happened as I have just said.  He gave me a certain amount of cash, I think it was R6 000-00 or R8 0000-00.  This was to cover my costs.  I left and I did as I planned.  I went to the Continental Hotel in Windhoek and I conveyed the information to him.  He was in Pretoria.  The next day, during that evening, he arrived at my hotel room, we discussed certain matters, we had a discussion and he told me that an Adv Anton Lubowski was a priority target for the CCB and that he was authorised to deal with it, it was in his region.
	I got the impression that they had worked extensively on Adv Lubowski and that there were various other matters surrounding Lubowski, before I was brought into this whole situation.  He asked me if I was willing to, he first put to me that Lubowski will be killed in South-West Africa, and I assumed then he would be killed, and that he wanted to create a cut-off point.  There was a Charles Nielsen, who was a coloured man from Rehoboth, he was a long-distance taxi driver, also short distances.  He was recruited as an unconscious member by the CCB.
	He wanted me to make contact with this person.  The instructions was that when I made contact with him, with Mr Nielsen, the physical address had to be checked to ensure that this is the place where he lived and slept.  I arranged a meeting with Nielsen together with Kobus le Roux.  It was, I think it was outside the Kalahari Sun, but it was a Sun Hotel, somewhere in Windhoek.  I met him there.   He had a kombi, which was his taxi, and I had a conversation with him.  Kobus le Roux handed over money.  I do not know how much it was, he gave him.
	I drove with him and he said he would point out a few places.  It was not long after that that I started manipulating him.  I took him to a few clubs, a few bars and at the end, we ended up at two o'clock in the morning, at Rehoboth, at his house.   There we drank a few whiskies again.  I realised that the people in the house knew him, he had keys to the house and this was his residence.
	I returned, he dropped me off at a certain place.  We then planned to meet up again the next day at a certain time, and a certain place.   I reported to Kobus le Roux saying that I verified this man's address.  Le Roux then handed over a video camera, he showed me how it worked.  It was quite a modern one, but one that you can, a hand-held camera, but it also had a night vision on, that you could use in the dark.
	He asked me to see Nielsen again the next day, and I had to task him to observe Mr Lubowski's house in Zanderberg, with this camera.  He had to do it as often as possible, without drawing attention to him and he had to film this house from different angles.  I accepted it and I handed this camera over to Mr Nielsen with the instructions.
	He already knew about Lubowski, when I spoke to him about it, and he handed over a piece of paper on which the dates and times and at the bottom it said in pen "Mr L is a late mover and he moves alone", which I assumed was Mr Lubowski and he then asked me to hand it over to Kobus.  He did not know him as Kobus, but I knew him as Kobus.
	I reported to Kobus, told him I handed over the video camera, I gave him the piece of paper with this information and he said to me "no, Nielsen was tasked to observe Lubowski and that he had to write down the times and dates, about his movements at his house".  Approximately a day afterwards, I again saw Nielsen.  He had the video camera on him, he handed it over to me and he said that he had made this video.
	I arranged for a meeting with Mr Kobus le Roux, we both looked through the tape, or looked at the tape.  There were images of Mr Lubowski's house taken from different angles.  All of it were taken in the day, or it appeared taken in the day.  It was from a standing position and also from a moving vehicle, and you could see that somebody filmed the house from a moving vehicle.
	Kobus le Roux was very satisfied and he told me that I must now withdraw from the Lubowski case, there was other work that I had to do, and they will continue with the Lubowski incident.  I then withdrew.

MR COETZEE: Very well.  What was Kobus' name within the CCB, do you know what it was?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I am not sure what his name was, he used the name Dewald and Willie in the time that I had contact with him, afterwards - I know today that his name is Kobus le Roux.

MR COETZEE: Do you know what region he worked for in the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I do not know in which region he worked.  After a while, after we became better friends, he mentioned the name Muller and I have read this in the documentation, I do not know where I heard it, but I know that this Muller's name was attached to the CCB and that he was a Special Force soldier.  He said he had connections with this person.  But in what region he worked in, I do not know, I had no further contact.

MR COETZEE: Apart from the costs that were covered, did you receive any other remuneration for this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No.  I think there was about R1 200-00 that was left over, and he said I could keep it.  This was after I returned back to Johannesburg.

MR COETZEE: Did you have any further contact or involvement in Lubowski?