Amnesty Hearings — East London — 2000-02-03

MR SMITH: Okay, perhaps I - I just want to clarify this, did you yourself hear shots being fired?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: From the direction on the crowd?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's why I'm saying, Sir, I don't know if it was from the crowd this firing but there was a firing, about two or three shots that were fired and then I believe that it was on our direction because we were the forces who were there.

MR SMITH: Okay.  Now did you then, after having heard the shots yourself, did you then hear the report from one of your soldiers that shots were being fired at you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: From your vantage point in the vehicle you would have been above the ground, is that correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: And you would have had sight of the crowd approaching and of your troops in front of him?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: Did you see any dust being kicked up where bullets had struck the earth?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.

MR SMITH: None of your soldiers who were in front, deployed in front of you were wounded?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: The ones who were in front of me were not wounded, no one, except the ones which was deployed at Fort Hare branch.

MR SMITH: Okay, but none of those in front of you, none of them sustained injuries?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, no.

MR SMITH: Now you relayed this to Colonel van der Bank?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: What did you say to him?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I said "Colonel van der Bank, the marchers are now are out of the stadium and they are storming to the direction of us, so what must we do?"  And then thereafter, I said to him "there's some shots being fired to the direction of us" and then he said "if you are being shot at, shoot back."

MR SMITH: Now I just want to get this point clear, Van der Bank did not qualify that in any way, he did not for example say "shoot above their heads" or "shoot into the air", he just said "if you are being shot at, shoot back"?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: And you understood that order that you were to open fire or you were to order the people under your command to open fire on the crowd approaching?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: Did he give any indication of the type of fire, I think you mentioned something like minimum force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No he never indicated any type of which firing I must use, it was only my initiative to say minimum force fire.

MR SMITH: That was your initiative?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: So if I understand you correctly you could have said to the soldiers "place your rifles on automatic fire and open fire"?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

MR SMITH: Are you conversant in Afrikaans?  Do you speak Afrikaans?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: A little bit.

MR SMITH: I notice in your statement that Van der Bank said to you in Afrikaans or at least he communicated to you in Afrikaans, did you fully understand what he was saying?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: What did he say to you in Afrikaans?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: He said "if you are being shot at Archie, "skiet terug".

MR SMITH: "Skiet terug"?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: Now there were various commissions and enquiries held and so on, you are aware that the Goldstone Enquiry found that no - there were no weapons on the scene amongst the marchers and the weapon that was found was tested and it hadn't been fired.  Can you still say that you are quite certain that you heard shots?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Sir, at that stage I could not say I identify clearly, it was the weapons at the march itself.  I don't think, I don't know whether those were mock weapons that were made out of wood or what but I also see that this was some things like rifles there, I don't know whether they were mock or real rifles.

MR SMITH: Now do I understand you correctly, when you gave the order what specific order did you give to I think you said to Major Mbene as the crowd was nearest to him, what precisely did you say to him?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I said to Major Mbene:  "Major Mbene", I called it "minimum force fire."

MR SMITH: And what is understood by minimum force fire?
Minimum force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: There are a lot of stages of minimum force.  It's when firstly you make a show of force, secondly you throw teargas to the crowd and then thirdly you again make a show of force, you depass and embark to the vehicle so that the people can see they are the people there, they are the soldiers there, but at that moment the time and the distance of the people were not so very ...(indistinct) so that we cannot apply all the steps of minimal force.

MR SMITH: The soldiers that were there, that were deployed there, were they standing upright or were they lying down?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: They were kneeling.

MR SMITH: Kneeling?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: Were they visible to the marchers?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes they were visible.

MR SMITH: When you gave the instruction did the soldiers remain in that kneeling position and start shooting?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: At that stage I cannot say whether they were still on their same positions because I was busy communicating.  While I was communicating I was not standing upright on the vehicle, I was within the vehicle because there were a lot of helicopters flying all over the place so that I can understand clearly what they are saying to me, I cannot say whether they were still in a kneeling position or not.

MR SMITH: Okay, now there is evidence by a Mr Scroobie in the - you appeared before the Board of Enquiry which was held by the Defence Force, the Ciskei Defence Force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I think so.

MR SMITH: Now there was evidence by a Mr Scroobie where he said that he monitored the radio communication and he said that Van der Bank told you "Archie, fire to move the crowd back to the stadium".  Can you remember that instruction?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.

MR SMITH: Now when you gave the instruction, this was on the open - if one can put it, the open net.  The commanders over had the parliamentary buildings at the Bisho Campus, all of them would have heard this order?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: When you gave the order did you specify which platoon or company or whatever had to shoot?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I have specified because firstly the order was not given on the radio, it was a verbal order to me to Major Mbene, from me to Major Mbene.

MR SMITH: Did you give Major Mbene a verbal order?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.  Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: Where was Major Mbene?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Major Mbene was on my right hand side.

MR SMITH: On the ground?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, on the vehicle too.

MR SMITH: And to who did he relay the order to?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: To Major Ndandiso on the ground.

MR SMITH: By the way of radio?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I don't know how would he have communicated with Major Ndandiso but I specifically gave Major Mbene - I said to Major Mbene because it was about 20 metres from here to you Sir, that I say "Major Mbene, minimum force fire."

MR SMITH: You said that verbally?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes that's right.

MR SMITH: Okay let me get this clear, you said firstly that you got into the vehicle because of the overhead noise?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: To hear what Van der Bank is saying?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: Did you then get out of the vehicle or raise yourself above the vehicle again to speak to Mbene?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No I stood up in the vehicle and I spoke to Major Mbene at this distance, I say: "Major Mbene, minimum force fire."