Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-20

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It is because Vlakplaas was different from other branches.  We tried to rehabilitate all men who came from across the borders and, but all these things use to happen there.

UNKNOWN: Now, Mr Mbelo, on ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, perhaps we should have another bit on record.  The passage at 375 which you were referred to earlier, said
"It was a place of making money and having fun and being drunk all the time."
Do you remember that?  Do you remember that was put to you?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: And you explained at page 376, line ten,
"The money that I am talking about, other than a salary, when you go out for the whole month, you claim allowances, your travelling allowances and that extra money at that time made quite a difference."
Is that also true?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir, but in other branches such things were not available.  It would take time before you can go anywhere with your work or travelling.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Mr Mbelo, in paragraph nine of your application, that is page 238, you say that, 
"At Vlakplaas we use to have braais, drinking and partying on a regular basis and often I saw top brass from the police headquarters.  On one occasion I saw then Minister Adriaan Vlok there and the purpose of these events and visits were to uplift the morale of the staff who were based there so that we could be more effective in our duty."
Now, is the actual reason why you preferred Vlakplaas that you had these kind of morale builders, which was absent at normal police stations?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, your Honour.

UNKNOWN: And, then just two last questions, how ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you proceed, Mr Williams, Mr Mbelo, how do you know that that was the purpose of the visit by Mr Adriaan Vlok and others?  How do you come to that conclusion?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: When Mr Adriaan Vlok was around he use to encourage us and tell us about the good work that we were doing as members of Vlakplaas.  He was encouraging us with our good work.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	The second-last question, at the time when you were based at Vlakplaas, how did, and at the time of this specific incident, what was your attitude towards the ANC and to people aligned to the ANC?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: During those years whilst I was in Vlakplaas, I was an enemy and also regarded the ANC as an enemy and also it was an enemy towards my colleagues, especially my colleagues on Vlakplaas, because we were working with ex-MK members and there were many of them.

UNKNOWN: And then my very last question.  What is your political motive for participating in this particular incident or for being part of this incident?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The political motivation for taking part in this particular event is because I was working for a group led by the Government of the day and the duty of Vlakplaas was to keep the past Government in power and to ensure that the liberation movements do not overthrow it at all.

UNKNOWN: I have got no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P WILLIAMS

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Mbelo, you said that prior to shooting Mr Mlifie you threw him to the ground, is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, your Honour.

JUDGE MILLER: Then you received, what you say, was an order to shoot him and you then shot him.  Could, how far away were you from him when you shot him and was he still on the ground at the time of the shooting?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, he was still on the ground and I was very close to him.  I would say I was right on top of him.  That is how near I was to him or how close.

JUDGE MILLER: And on what part of the body did you shoot him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, I shot him on the left-hand side of his head.

JUDGE MILLER: And were you of the opinion that your shot was deadly, was fatal, that you killed him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Your Honour, I am not sure whether I killed him instantly or not.  Up till this day I am not sure.

JUDGE MILLER: Why do you think that that Sergeant that you were a bad shot if you were standing over him, such a close range and you hit him in the head?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not know why.  Perhaps, it is because he had, he was not dead yet.

JUDGE MILLER: Can you think of any reason why that Sergeant, himself, then shot Mr Mlifie in the stomach?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not have any other reason that I can think of.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Mbelo, at what stage did you disarm him, whilst he was standing or lying on the ground?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I did this whilst he was lying on the ground.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbelo, you have testified that Mr Odendal, who was the most senior, in the morning of the third of March, when instructions were given to execute the operation, you testified yesterday that Mr Odendal made no mention to the words like "take out" or "sweep".  Is that still your evidence?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is still my evidence, your Honour.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You remember the evidence that you gave during the Section 29 hearing in which you stated that you were given clear, chrystally clear instructions at Wingfield, as a group, that these people were not to be arrested, but were to be killed.  Do you remember that kind of evidence that you gave during your Section 29 hearing?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, I remember, but not very clearly.  I said this, because Mr Odendal said that as soon as they raise their arms or they produce their arms, you should fight back.  That is what Mr Odendal said.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you page to 321, Mr Mbelo.  I just need clarity whether this is, in fact, what you said.  You were quoted as saying, I think there is a question or a statement which is being put to you by Adv Potgieter.
"Sergeant Mbelo, that is line ten.  What I am interested in is that at the meeting at Wingfield at that morning, meeting with officers and yourselves and colleagues from Vlakplaas, everybody present at that meeting was left under no illusion, it was made clear, these people had to be taken.  There is no question of arrest."

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It is so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you see your response and just go to line 24?  Do you see your response there too?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I see it very clearly, your Honour.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, are you now saying that even though he did not say you must sweep these people into their graves or take them out, he nevertheless gave you the impression that you had to kill them?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: He did not give the orders or instructions to, that they should be killed, but all the people who played a role or key role players in that meeting or, perhaps, to call them the owners of the meeting, people like Mr Bellingan were coming from them, that these people should be removed.  Even when we were approaching the intersection of these streets we knew exactly what was going to happen to these people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Okay, I will leave that one.  Can you turn to page 247 of your affidavit.  Now, at paragraph 22 you state that you are aware that Jimmy and Eric had weapons in their possession and that at the time when they fled, they left the weapons in the bush.  How do you know this?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I knew this after the event when I met with Jimmy and Eric in Koeberg.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is that what they told you after the event?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is so.  I remember clearly when Jimmy asked Mr Bellingan as to whether he found those weapons where they had put them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But was that made clear to you by Mr Mbane that this was the position as reflected here in your affidavit?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I got this from Mr Mbane.