Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

CHAIRPERSON: It is actually not in mitigation.  Mr Tee, that was not a statement in mitigation as I see it.  It is a plea on the merits.

ADV TEE: I am about to refer to page 5 of that document Mr Chairperson.  He in fact didn't make a statement, he gave evidence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Tee, what bundle are you referring us to, is that Mr Nkuna's bundle or are you now referring us to Mr Nkuna's bundle?

ADV TEE: Mr Skosana's bundle.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What number is it, alphabetical number?  I've got A up to E.  Thank you.  And you said it was page 5?

ADV TEE: I am going to be referring to the paginated page 5 which is 2 on the typed pages.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the evidence that he gave during his trial?  Thank you.

ADV TEE: This is your plea in mitigation that you gave evidence on.  I just want to read something that you stated on it.
	It begins at the bottom of the page - another moment Soli had already informed Joe about his intention of leaving the country, he had already informed Joe.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Tee, wasn't that the argument ...

ADV TEE: No, Mr Chairman, it seems to be ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: It is indeed Mr Skosana's evidence Mr Tee.

ADV TEE: It stated there "e.u.o", I presume that means evidence under oath?

ADV DE JAGER: And the next name mentioned immediately below, is Kopede?

ADV TEE: Yes, that is correct.  That is where he is asking the witness a question.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay.

ADV TEE: And then the witness starts to testify.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think he starts where it says I left Witbank for Nelspruit and that is Mr Skosana testifying.

ADV TEE: I am just quoting what you said on this page, I will start again at line 28.
	Another moment Soli had already informed Joe of his intention to leave the country.  He had already informed Joe.  Joe informed Soli to wait for a while, he was busy making the necessary arrangements for him to skip the country.
	Isn't it clear from that that Joe according to you, had already had contact with Soli or should I say that Soli had already had had contact with Joe?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I don't think so because that happened immediately when we arrived at Joe's place.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I ask a question in this connection.  In paragraph 19 of your present affidavit you state that on our arrival at Joe's house, we found that Joe already knew of our dilemma and we thus did not have a lot of explanation to do.
	So, Joe was aware of your dilemma before you arrived at his place?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I would say when we arrived at Joe's place, he already knew everything because he heard about it on the news on TV and also read about it in the papers and he knew that Soli was on the run, that is why we didn't have any problem, we didn't have to explain much, we just had to see him and I think this evidence confirm each other.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Skosana, did Joe know already that Soli had to skip the country?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I would say, no, he knew that he was being wanted by the police.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is that the dilemma that you are eluding to ...

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: In the submission that you have given to the Committee, it seems to state that you were staying at Joe's house.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, we stayed to Joe's place.  We arrived but he had to ask in the same yard from another person where we have to sleep.

ADV TEE: Were you not staying in the yard next to Joe's place?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, the houses are just next to each other, however, we arrived at Joe's place and he made some arrangements that we would sleep in the next house.

ADV PATEL: Sorry Mr Chairman, may I intervene.  I would like to be excused.  As I explained earlier, because I have to catch a flight to Johannesburg, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused Mr Patel.  Your Attorney remains?

ADV PATEL: My attorney will remain and I will find somebody to take me to the airport.

ADV TEE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Skosana I would like you to describe the attack on the house of Mr Shabangu.  How was it carried out?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: We attacked the house using handgrenades and we blew one of the windows.

ADV TEE: Can you tell us who threw the grenade?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Soli threw the hand grenade.

ADV TEE: How many handgrenades were thrown?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: We had two.

ADV TEE: And where did they land?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: They landed right inside the bedroom.

ADV TEE: Is it not true to say that one hand grenade landed outside the house and one inside, inside the bedroom at least?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I would not know, I only knew that both of them landed inside the house and there was an explosion and I don't know of any grenade that landed outside.

ADV TEE: Did you not throw one of the grenades yourself?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No.

ADV TEE: You say that there were four people involved in the attack, is that right?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: Can you mention who they are?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: It was Joe Nkuna, Conrad Nkuna, Soli Morapi and myself.

ADV TEE: Is it not true that in fact Joe Nkuna was not there at all?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Joe was with us.

ADV TEE: Now did you know at the time that in October of 1991, Joe had been attacked?  Joe Nkuna.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: You mean Joe was attacked?  He told us while we were in the house that he was attacked.

ADV TEE: And do you know that he spent some time in hospital where he was quite severely injured because of his injuries?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: The way he told us it was something that happened the year before that, it looked like something that happened long ago and he was seeming to be well at that time.

ADV TEE: And as a result of those injuries that he sustained, he cannot run even today?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I will say that we went together with him to attack Mr Shabangu, even if he can't run fast, but he can walk fast.

ADV TEE: Mr Skosana, you heard the people laughing here, that he can walk fast, because people have been seeing him today, moving around.  He cannot move very well.

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I can prove it to you, Joe can walk, he can walk properly.

ADV TEE: Isn't it also true that MK Commanders do not go on the raids with the soldiers, the soldiers would go, the Commanders would command, isn't that really what happens?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is not true.  Commanders do get involved in operations at some time.

ADV TEE: Yes, but isn't that very serious operations where you are dealing with a war situation, where you have two armies facing each other?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I will think this was serious too.

ADV TEE: Do you recall that you gave evidence in the trial of the Nkuna brothers?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I do.

ADV TEE: And during that trial it was put to you that Joe Nkuna was not present at the attack?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I am the one who knows, I was with Joe.

ADV TEE: Now, I am not asking you that.  Do you remember that the person defending Joe Nkuna said to you Joe Nkuna was not present at the attack?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: If you remind me, I don't remember it.

ADV TEE: Before you gave evidence in that trial, is it true that you were charged with murder as well as with the Nkuna brothers, attempted murder?