Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

ADV PRIOR: A perusal of the indictment against Bhila -Mr Chairman, copies are being prepared at this time, seem to indicate that what Bhila was involved in was a bombing at the Lamontville Township office on the 16th of June '85 and various aborted operations and also the establishment of a DLB.  I think your counsel has the document.  But in broad terms, did you know that?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, not those specifics, Sir.

ADV PRIOR: Well if your information was not that Bhila had been involved in any bombings directly, did you still regard him on the information that you received, that he was a dangerous person and had to be eliminated in line with the policy of the Security Branch at that stage?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, he was a trained member, not trained outside the country but he had been trained inside the country, and as I had it he was almost like the quarter-master. He'd stored some of the weapons and I understand that he had stored some of the weapons or the bomb that was used in the Toti bombing.

ADV PRIOR: At the trial I understand that he was discharged after the closure of the State Case, on the basis that no evidence had been lead against him up until that stage, are you aware or that or were you aware of that?

FRANK MCCARTER: I was informed that, yes.

ADV PRIOR: In your experience, what was the likelihood of a person like Bhila who had been arrested, he had been in detention for possibly a number of months, had sat through a trial of that nature, had been acquitted and obviously was known by the Security establishment, what were the chances that he would be able to operate with the Durban or Lamontville area?

FRANK MCCARTER: Even greater, Mr Chairman, he now had a background, that he'd been arrested by the police, that he'd gone through the trial and that sort of thing.  That would have given him greater standing within the liberation movement.

ADV PRIOR: It seems to my mind that the Security Branch was unhappy with the decision of the Court and that he was discharged, would you go along with that?

FRANK MCCARTER: I think anyone, any policeman investigating a case whose accused is found not guilty, is generally unhappy.

ADV PRIOR: Even if there was no evidence against him you'd still feel aggrieved that he was discharged or acquitted?

FRANK MCCARTER: Ja, I'd say it's pretty much so if you knew he was involved.  Even thought the evidence was flimsy, if you knew he was involved you would be aggrieved.

ADV PRIOR: It would seem to my mind that if one did not accept the decision of the Court one is acting on a different level than a political motive, you're acting out of, you're becoming the executioner.

FRANK MCCARTER: In hindsight that's quite correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: The Security Branch had the machinery at its disposal, which we see in the case of the other accused who were all convicted of ...(indistinct) of arresting, detaining, investigating the case and successfully prosecuting them given the veracity or otherwise of the evidence, the reliability of the evidence, would you agree?

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: In any event this didn't really affect you did it, because you acted on the say-so of Colonel Taylor?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: At that stage, did you readily agree to kill Bhila or participate in his murder?

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I didn't refuse.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I see it's just gone 1 o'clock, may we take the adjournment at this time?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
0N RESUMPTION

FRANK MCCARTER: (s.u.o.)

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  May I proceed with my questioning of Mr McCarter.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

ADV PRIOR: (continued)  Thank you.
	Mr McCarter, the operation seems to have been divided into two parts, for a want of a better description, there was the plan to lure Bhila away from his home into the clutches of the Askaris and/or the members, the black members, and then a further plan was to have an interception of sorts where he would be taken away by yourself and the other members of Vlakplaas, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: And that was to leave in Bhila's mind that the people who had posed as ANC or UDF officials had also been intercepted, is that correct?  He wasn't to know that he had been lured away by members of the force?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman, he did know.  Once we intercepted I think he realised that it was a set-up.

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Prior, I have grave difficulties with the responses of "I think he realised".  Either commit yourself or do not.  Did he know or did he not know?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, he must have realised once he had been taken into custody, that he was, that it was a set-up.

MR MALAN: Why must he have realised that?

FRANK MCCARTER: The way car was pulled - well, it wasn't even pulled off, I think it was parked next to the road and we pulled up behind it and took him out of there.

MR MALAN: So it wasn't an interception, it was a handover, is that what you're saying?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well it worked out to be a handover, it wasn't as if it was a roadblock or anything.

ADV PRIOR: The question was along the lines, and my understanding from Mr Ramatala was that even himself and the other black members were roughed up as it were, they were pushed around and given slaps and told to stand to one side while Bhila was then bundled into one of the kombis.  In other words, the impression was created that this was an interception of an arrangement of the ANC, in other words that the police had simply come upon them or had information and that the cover of Ramatala and the others was intact.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, now that Advocate Prior has mentioned that, it does ring a bell, that ...

ADV PRIOR: Now from there, Bhila was taken to this pistol range that was eluded to ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Prior, may I just go back to the previous question.  Did he then know or did he not know that the members who picked him up were police?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chair, Advocate Prior has reminded me of the situation, that it was exactly how he described.  I can't say what Mr Bhila's frame of mind was then.

ADV PRIOR: Well did Bhila say anything when he was in your custody and under your control?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, he never referred to those people again.

ADV PRIOR: What was his reaction once you had him under your control, and now were driving towards Winkelspruit?

FRANK MCCARTER: Subdued.

ADV PRIOR: Now you spent some hours at this pistol, club as you have indicated almost until nightfall, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Now we have the application of Mr Rosslee as well as his Section 204 statement, which I think has been circulated, Mr Chairman, but in any even at page 74 of his amnesty application Mr Rosslee indicated, in fact at page 25, he said
"The suspect was interrogated for a couple of hours whereafter we, that is Wasserman, McCarter, Bosch, two local black members and myself put the suspect in a mini-bus and drove into an area, that was the Umbumbulo area."

FRANK MCCARTER: ...(inaudible).

ADV PRIOR: The question is, what is your allegation, that Bhila was interrogated?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's incorrect, Mr Chairman, Bhila wasn't interrogated.  As far as I could see it with speaking to Mr Wasserman and that they knew his whole pedigree.  He had been interrogated, he'd just come out of incarceration and been set free so there wasn't really anything further to interrogate him about.

ADV PRIOR: Was he assaulted in any way, was he ill-treated, was he abused in any way?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman, he was handcuffed and kept there, he wasn't abused at all.

ADV PRIOR: And at that stage everyone there knew that at some later time that day he was going to be killed, is that correct?