Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall, no, I do not see it here.  But I am saying we took the route, I do not remember.  I cannot remember very well, I cannot remember the bridge very well.

MR STRYDOM: To get to the veld, you did not cross a footbridge, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, we went through the veld off the tar road, I don't know which bridge you are talking about.  We crossed the road towards Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst we have the map here, on your way back, did you follow the same route from the veld back to the kwaMadala hostel as you have just described to us, or a different route?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We took the main road that leads towards kwaMadala hostel and it goes next to the BP and the firms, the BP garage and the firms.

MR STRYDOM: So, is it then correct to say that on your way back, the group of people you were at that stage, followed the route on the tar towards the BP and then across the main road, towards kwaMadala hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct sir.

MR STRYDOM: On your way back, how many people were in your group on their way back now to the kwaMadala hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were many of us, I cannot say how many.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, why don't you tell us this, when you were going back, were you still one big group?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: On our way back, we only became one group when we met at the hostel, the one that is in Boipatong, or at Boipatong, that is where we grouped together into one group.

CHAIRPERSON: At the hostel you all came together and formed one big group?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, from there to kwaMadala hostel, did you walk as one big group?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, until we crossed the robots.

CHAIRPERSON: And until you eventually arrived at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: So that group on your way back, passed the garage, as you were walking, just on your right hand side?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Some of them were walking on the side of the veld, and others yes, were walking on the tar road itself.

MR STRYDOM: So people positioned at the garage at that stage, would have been able to see this group moving towards the robots to cross the main road, to go back to kwaMadala hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, but yes, we walked passed the garage.

MR STRYDOM: And whilst walking, you didn't try to hide yourself, you were openly walking towards the robots and then on your way to kwaMadala hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, we were walking freely in the company of the Police.

MR STRYDOM: If you say that at that stage you were in the company of the Police, what do you mean by that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I am saying the Police went back to the hostel in casspirs to deliver the stolen goods, but we were not walking at the same time as the Police casspirs were driving back to the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but if that is the case, why did you say in the company of the Police?  The Police already passed and went on their way to kwaMadala hostel, you were walking, why did you say that we were now in the company of the Police?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not saying we were in the company of the Police, the Police drove back to the hostel with induna's first and we came back later, we followed later rather.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I see it is four o'clock, will it be an appropriate stage to take the adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: How far are you from ...

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I hope to finish, it is difficult to say it depends on how long it is going to take obviously to get certain answers, but I envisage that I may finish by lunch tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think in that event, we may just have to go on so as to save time.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn at half past four.

MR STRYDOM: As you please Mr Chairman.  When you got to the casspirs, on your way now, again I am going to take you back, on your way to attack Boipatong, you said there were four casspirs, they were standing in the veld, did they have their lights on?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the lights were off.

MR STRYDOM: You have already told us who was driving the casspir you got into and the other occupants, did you see who were driving and other occupants, apart from the attackers, of the other casspirs?

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated?

MR STRYDOM: You said there were four casspirs.  I am not referring to the casspir where you eventually got into, I am referring to the other three casspirs, could you see who the drivers were and who the other passengers were?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No sir, I did not see.  I did not see that, I don't know the people who were driving those casspirs.

MR LAX: Did you see who the other passengers were?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were many of us, people were just getting into the casspirs as it was possible, and I got into this one particular casspir.

MR STRYDOM: Who made the decision which person must get into which casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had indicated that it was Gatchene who indicated.

MR STRYDOM: Did Gatchene ...

MR BERGER: I am sorry to interrupt Chairperson, we have arranged consultations, could Ms Malindi and I please be excused?  Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: The question is did Mr Gatchene also tell the other attackers to get into certain casspirs, so he divided them up, saying this group will go to this casspir and this group with that casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, he said people should get into the casspirs because some of them went to Boipatong on foot.  A casspir is not so big, some of them were walking.  I only heard him saying "gentlemen, here are the casspirs, get inside."

MR STRYDOM: Was it out of your own free will that you got into the casspir, nobody told you to do so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it was of my own free will that I got into the casspir in which Peens and others were travelling.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you get into the casspir with Peens if he was the person that was responsible to torture you on various occasions?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: This person tortured me when I was still in the township, will you please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: There are four casspirs, Gatchene told the people that they could get into the casspirs.  You wanted to get into a casspir, now you choose the casspir of Peens, the person that has been responsible to torture you on previous occasions, that is what I am asking you an explanation, why didn't you choose one of the other casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just chose that one, it was out of my choice.  I cannot say exactly what reason I had, I just chose to get into that casspir.

MR STRYDOM: I have reached a stage where the people got into the casspirs, did the four casspirs move more or less at the same time, in the same direction with the people walking next to the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that question.

MR STRYDOM: All the people got into the casspir, not all the people, some of the people got into the casspirs, some were still outside, and now did you start moving towards the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The casspirs were driving in convoy.

MR STRYDOM: So in convoy, you mean the one behind the other one, one in front and then one after that, in convoy, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  Some people walked on foot as we entered Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: So when the casspirs entered Boipatong, they were still in convoy?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: When they entered the township, they separated, they went to different streets in the township.