Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR H DU PLESSIS: I have no questions.  I would just like to know if my client and I may be excused, and I would like to place on record that the date for the continuation of these hearings, has been arranged with me, and it does suit me.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr du Plessis.
MR H. DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR H DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Eck, do you have any questions?

MR VAN ECK: (Indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker was unclear, could he repeat his statement?

MR LAX: Would you just repeat it, the translators didn't get what you said, I am afraid.

MR VAN ECK: Pardon Chairperson, Mr du Plessis on my right, will go ahead of me.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I won't be leaving, I will actually be asking some questions.  Thank you Mr Chairman, can I proceed?   Mr Alexander, firstly I just want to mention a few names to you from the statements made available.
	Shinaaz Shamira?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Shinaaz Lamera?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Lamera?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Is it Lamera?  I think it is incorrectly spelt in the index.  This person, is this person known to you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: From the Cape Youth Congress?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: As a friend from the same community?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not from the same community, but from a different community, but I know her.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You at a stage, we are talking about 1989, did you know her well?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I knew her to an extent, we didn't interact daily, but I knew her, and we went to various meetings, yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you actually knew her well by the time of this explosion?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I knew who she was and where she lived, which area she lived, not necessarily which house she lived in.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you socially interact with her?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: On occasion at Youth functions, but not on a daily basis.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.   But, so you did socialise and you did go to the same meetings?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And obviously, if I understand correctly, she was a member of the Cape Youth Congress and one of the senior members?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: One of the ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In terms of her branch, she would have been senior.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Executive members?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In terms of her branch, she would have been senior.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not, any way ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: But in any event she was part of the Executive?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Regional Executive.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Regional Executive, yes, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Correct yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Then obviously Mr Peter Williams you knew?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And also as a friend?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I knew him well.

MR P DU PLESSIS: At that time?  You knew him very well?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, very well.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Fine.   The next person is Regina Isaacs?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I knew her, I still know her.

MR P DU PLESSIS: On a social basis?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: On a social basis.

MR P DU PLESSIS: As a friend?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And also as a member of the Cape Youth Congress?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Fatima Omar?  Is it the same position?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I knew her, didn't interact with her, but I knew who she was.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Well, did you only know who she was, did you ever attend meeting with her?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Just tell me by the way, what was your position in the Cape Youth Congress?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Mine?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was a senior member of the Kewtown Youth Movement.  We were representatives of our movement's meeting on a regional basis.  Not the Cape Youth Congress ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: You were affiliated to the Cape Youth Congress?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you serving on the Executive?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: On the Regional, the Regional Executive.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Regional Executive?  Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We attended regional meetings.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Of what, of the Cape Youth Congress?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: As?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: But I wasn't an official office bearer of the Cape Youth Congress.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was an office bearer of the Kewtown Youth Movement.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, and Fatima Omar?  Was she also ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: She was a representative from a different Youth.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Also a Youth organisation?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Which one?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Thornhill.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thornhill?   And as such you knew her and you attended numerous meetings with her?  Isn't that so?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And Nazeema Mohammed?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I knew her as well.

MR P DU PLESSIS: On the same basis?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Also attended many meetings with her, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: The following person is Wallace Jonathan Stevens?  Do you know this person?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I knew who he was, he played soccer in the area, but he wasn't resident within the Kewtown area, but I knew who he was.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You didn't know him socially?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You had no interaction previously with this person?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: No problems with this person?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Like, while I am on the point, on the point, you obviously knew Gakkie who testified here?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I knew Gakkie.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you have problems with him before, personal clashes?  Political, of political nature perhaps?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We were on different sides of ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: Of the political spectrum?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: He knew that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He knew that but we could live together.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But that wasn't the position with Mr Wallace Stevens?  This Mr Wallace Jonathan Stevens, you didn't have any political associations with him?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I didn't have any associations or have any social links with Mr ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: Nothing at all?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: With Mr Wallace Stevens.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So he is not, it is not for instance known to you that he was, if he was, from the opposite political spectrum or from the same?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.  No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: He may have been an anti-government person as well?  Do you agree with that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I don't know him in that fashion.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  And Terrence Coetzee?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I don't know him.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So before this incident, you didn't know who Terrence Coetzee was or did you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Let me just put it into perspective ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: Well, this Mr Terrence Coetzee ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I don't know him, however that was a soccer union meeting, and we had a rebel league within the Kewtown area.  There were something like 16 soccer teams playing, so they came there, I don't know them.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Fine.  I just want to establish whether you knew this person.  I see he ...

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you don't know him, you know of him, I mean Terrence Coetzee, now you are talking about somebody belonging to the soccer people, so you know, you have heard the name and you know that he belongs to soccer, but you don't know him, or do you say "I don't know him, I have never heard the name and I am just guessing that he might have been ..."