Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-06

MR MCBRIDE: It would covering mainly the same things again, but I would have now, I would be able to see - if I can use a crude expression, the teaching aids more directly.  I had them in my hands, I could feel them, I could put them together.  I'm talking about on weaponry.  On politics there was more documentation in which I was - easier access to documentation, more recent documentation, documentation of other liberation movements also.  So I was taught on the whole really in a more, I won't say narrow-minded way, but more a broader sense of political developments on the continent.

MR RICHARD: And as you said in your evidence-in-chief, you had left your studies at the Bechet(?) Teacher's Training College and dedicated yourself full-time to the struggle.

MR MCBRIDE: That's right, yes.

MR RICHARD: Now during the process of this training, what was said of Kabwe, the Kabwe Conference?  It had happened quite recently.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: What was said of it?

MR MCBRIDE: I beg your pardon?

MR RICHARD: What was said to you about the Kabwe Conference and what came out of it?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember the exact words, but it was to the effect that for us who were combatants, the most important aspect or consequence of the Kabwe Conference, was the way we conducted operations and that was less restrained or less consideration for the possibility of civilians caught in the crossfire.

MR RICHARD: Now when you use the word "less", what is the relevance of the emphasis on the word "less"?

MR MCBRIDE: Well the ANC was over-concerned, I would imagine at that stage, for there to be an effective armed struggle about the possibility of civilian casualties.  And I think it was unrealistic at that stage for the movement to have continued in the way it was.

MR RICHARD: When you say "oversensitive", in what respect?

MR MCBRIDE: Sorry?

MR RICHARD: When you said "oversensitive", in what respect.

MR MCBRIDE: I'm not sure if I used "oversensitive".

CHAIRPERSON: It was over-concerned.  He said "Before the ANC was over-concerned about civilian casualties and that became unrealistic".

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, over-concerned.

MR MCBRIDE: Can you repeat your question, Sir.

MR RICHARD: What do you mean by "over-concerned", if that is the word you used.

MR MCBRIDE: Well I think in our endeavour to always maintain moral high ground and to be always correct and 100% pure, we sometimes neglected to effect the struggle in a more realistic way.

MR RICHARD: And how would that now be carried into practice?  What would the practical effect of that be?

MR MCBRIDE: I think I've answered that already, Sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr McBride, what did you mean or what was meant by the ANC being over-concerned, about what were they over-concerned?

MR MCBRIDE: Well about the image in regards to civilians.

JUDGE PILLAY: That they took care not to injure or kill civilians?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, Sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: In the operations prior to ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, undue care.  I mean overly-concerned.

JUDGE PILLAY: Let's not debate whether it was undue or not.

MR MCBRIDE: I'm sorry, Sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: The point of the matter is as I understand your evidence, they were concerned about civilian casualties prior to the Kabwe Conference.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, Sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: Does that sort out your question, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: We've been through this evidence and I don't want to labour the point, so I'm just simply establishing that it speaks for itself.

JUDGE PILLAY: I'm pleased to hear.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Judge.
	When did you first meet Gordon Webster?

MR MCBRIDE: Gordon Webster.  I first met him in 1983, we were both in the same class at first year at Bechet.

MR RICHARD: And now when you say in various papers you frequented the Alan Taylor residence, what do you mean by frequented, what happened there?

MR MCBRIDE: Political meetings, meetings with political activists.  If you'll remember correctly that's the place where Steve Biko also stayed and medical students they would also give free health-care to the community of Wentworth, they'd also show us free movies.  So we were always from - I think when I was about seven I would go there.  And Alan Taylor's residence really was the hot bed of political activism in Natal, because you had black students from all over the country, political activists, living in Alan Taylor's residence.  The cream of the crop of activism in the country.

MR RICHARD: Now we know from what you've said so far, that Mr Webster had been to a place outside the country for training and that he came back and trained you, and you went to Botswana for training.  I'm now going to be specific.  Were you trained in the use or mortars?

MR MCBRIDE: I was given just at the theoretical training, what is involved, I didn't actually see a mortar.

MR RICHARD: Were you instructed in the use of rockets?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Were you instructed in the use of grenades that fired from rifles?

MR MCBRIDE: No.

MR RICHARD: Now when it comes to detonating various explosives, what timing devices were you trained in the use of?  What variety did they teach you?

MR MCBRIDE: Electrical, thermal and mechanical.

MR RICHARD: And what would be an electrical one?

MR MCBRIDE: One that is detonated by an electrical pulse being pushed through the wires.

MR RICHARD: And what would be a mechanical one?

MR MCBRIDE: Like the ones that are used in the limpet mines, where you have a high tensile steel cutting through a lead plate and at the end of that you have a firing pin which strike the detonator.

MR RICHARD: And there was a third one.

MR MCBRIDE: Thermal, which you'd light a fuse and it burns.

CHAIRPERSON: And would that come under electrical?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Now so to speak were there supplies of all the various devices to be had?

MR MCBRIDE: At different times there were different devices available.

MR RICHARD: And depending on what was available, you could take you preference or take ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: There was no, there wasn't a case of preference, you used what was available.

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't for instance let the people know that you're coming to Botswana in two weeks time and give some indication of what your requirements were, place an order as such?

MR MCBRIDE: Sir, I'm not sure if I understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were going to collect weapons or explosives, was there any question about you placing an order, saying "Look this is what I want" and getting given to you what you had previously requested, or was it a question of going, seeing what's there and take from an existing stock, without actually placing an order.

MR MCBRIDE: I can just, to answer your question, give an example.  I once requested from comrade Rashid, were there silences available for an AK and were there subsonic rounds available, so that we can take over, overrun a police place and he indicated to me it could be available, but we don't have it now, indicating it was not a priority from the command side that we use such equipment in an operation.  So it wasn't a clear case of whatever you ask for you get, or whatever is available you use, it depended entirely on a number of aspects.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair.
	Now what distinguished in your mind, Special Operations from other MK units?

MR MCBRIDE: Our targets would be more strategic and the effects would be more spectacular and we would be amongst the best.

MR RICHARD: Now you've said your targets would be more strategic, who was responsible for choosing those strategic targets?

MR MCBRIDE: I'm not sure I understand your question.