Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

ADV J MOSES: My Lord, I need to intervene here.
	I don't think that the question is totally fair.  The witness has attempted an answer and obviously the witness cannot force Counsel to accept that answer, what I have only received the statement also now and if one takes that paragraph 7 which has been referred to in context, then it seems if that is read with paragraph 9, my Lord, then that is certainly what the witness is trying to explain.  If Counsel is not happy with the answer, certainly it cannot be expected of the witness to answer what Counsel wants him to answer.
	In paragraph 9 mention is made that:
"Throughout this whole process I was reporting to Liebenberg and Sgt Bellingan.  Together we strategised about how to deal with these Comrades."

MR BOOYENS: I'll ask the question in another way - maybe we can cross that bridge then.
	One of the most important aspects of this whole operation was that you reported to Bellingan and to Liebenberg that these...four of these people were innocent township youths that were not posing a threat to anybody.  That was very, very important.  Not so?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: In fact, because what you are really trying to say to us is that knowing full well they were dealing with innocents, these people deliberately set these innocent youths up with the purpose of killing them.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's what I said.

MR BOOYENS: Now, who assisted you in this Cape Town statement, this November statement?

JIMMY MBANE: Nobody assisted me.

MR BOOYENS: Well, did you make the statement to Mr Khoisan?

JIMMY MBANE: He was writing down what ever I was saying.  He was writing all that I said and nothing else.

MR BOOYENS: And can I take it that Mr Khoisan was told that the whole...that these people actually plotted to murder innocents.  You told him that they were no threat to anybody, that they were innocent youths, can I take it that you told him that?

JIMMY MBANE: I told him that and he wrote that down.

MR BOOYENS: He wrote it down.  What did he write down?  Let's get that clear.  What did he write down?

JIMMY MBANE: He wrote whatever I told him.  And it's right here in front of me.

MR BOOYENS: Then he would have wrote down also that these youths were innocent youngsters who posed no threat, and notwithstanding that fact, they decided that they wanted to murder them.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: I said to him in this group there was only one person who was locally trained.  The rest were not trained.  It was only Rasta.  The others were trained by us.
	And whatever I told him is right in front of me.

ADV C BOOYENS: Okay, Mr Mbane.  So did you not tell Mr Khoisan that apart from dealing with the training, did you not tell him that they were just innocent youths that really posed no threat - they could have been any four youths from the township.
	You didn't tell him that?

JIMMY MBANE: I said to him in this group there is only one who is trained.  If I said that to him, doesn't that obviously mean that the others were not trained, and harmless?

MR BOOYENS: So he had to make that deduction.  You didn't tell him that exactly.  That you...you see what I am more interested in is not whether they were trained, even untrained people can still pose a threat, I presume.  You don't have to have military training to pose a threat.	You didn't tell him that?

JIMMY MBANE: I told him that amongst all the deceased there is only one who was trained, Rasta.  The rest were trained by me and Maluleka.  He wrote what I told him and that's it.

MR BOOYENS: After you infiltrated in Cape Town, the group initially, did you return to Vlakplaas at the end of January?

JIMMY MBANE: No, I didn't go there.  I stayed here for two months.

MR BOOYENS: Isn't the true position that Mr Bellingan was only...was on a course in January and only joined your group in February when you had done your infiltration already?  Just think about it carefully.  It's a long time ago.

JIMMY MBANE: That I do not recall, as to when did he come here.  But what I know is that we were here in January.

MR BOOYENS: The question, I accept that you were here.  I've got not dispute that you were here.  I dealing specifically with Mr Bellingan.  Mr Bellingan went on a riot control course in January, which only finished at the end of January and he came down late January or early February.  Last few days of January or end of February.  Is that possible?

JIMMY MBANE: That I don't recall.

MR BOOYENS: And I don't understand that question.  You say that you don't recall.  Is it possible that Mr Bellingan was not here when you were here?

JIMMY MBANE: The one thing I know is that me and Belletjies came together from Vlakplaas accompanied by Joe Coetzer.  Joe Coetzer disappeared for some time, that's why he was not present during the operation.  He left us there.  But now if you say that Belletjies was not there, you are confusing me.

MR BOOYENS: You see, Bellingan's evidence was that he did join with Coetzer down here, but that was only at the end...towards the end of January.

JIMMY MBANE: What I know is that we drove down with Belletjies and Coetzer to Cape Town.  As to whether he once disappeared or not, that I am not aware of.  But most of the time I was reporting back to him with Liebenberg.  As to whether he once left, that I don't know.  Then who was the Belletjies I was reporting to?

MR BOOYENS: The vehicle, the kombi you came down with, did that have false panels in which the arms were hidden?

JIMMY MBANE: Most of the vehicles had false panels.

MR BOOYENS: Did this one have false panels?

JIMMY MBANE: That I cannot remember, but most of our cars used false registration numbers.

MR BOOYENS: No, no, no.  I am not talking about registration numbers.  I am talking about false panels inside the vehicle that you can pull off, hide a firearm and put it back so that people don't see it.  That's what I am talking about.

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they were there.  That's why we called it ice-cream.

MR BOOYENS: And is it correct that the AK47's came down from Pretoria with you?

JIMMY MBANE: We - I don't know whether we came down with them from Pretoria, but they were handed over to me here in Cape Town.  As to whether we drove down with them from Pretoria, but they were handed over to me in Cape Town.  I had only my own pistol, P38 in my possession.

MR BOOYENS: Now, if the court will just bear with me.
	I want you to look at paragraph 26 of your statement, your Johannesburg statement.  Read it.

JIMMY MBANE: Please read it for me.
	I told you that in this statement there are numerous things that are not right.  So I don't know what to do anymore.  There are a lot of incorrect things in this statement.  I agree that I did sign it.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  And have you read paragraph 26?  Do you understand what's written there?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbane, do you need assistance with what is in paragraph 26. Do you want it to be translated to you?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, please.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Will the translators please assist.  I will read and can you please translate.  Or if you don't mind, Mr Booyens do you want to ....

MR BOOYENS: I don't mind.  I can read it out and the interpreter can interpret it Mr Chairman.
"After having assisted the squatters to fight the Witdoeke, we phoned our Vlakplaas squad and were told to remain there for some time.
The following week, myself and Thabiso had to report to Vlakplaas to fetch materials and obtain instructions.  I was then joined by Eric Sifadi (and you corrected that in your evidence in chief to Maluleka) and we were given weapons to train those people from Khayelitsha.  The kombi we were using at that time was driven by Mbelo, one of the police from Vlakplaas."
	Do you now understand what is written in this statement?