Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe, could either you or counsel place on record the cause of the delay this morning.  We've lost valuable time.  There have been a lot of people who have been here from quite early this morning, who've been kept waiting, and I think it is proper that they should know why there has been this delay.

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the delay was caused primarily by the fact that one of the applicants, Mr Nofomela, was not present at the stipulated time, 10 o'clock.  He was at that time at the Westville Prison here in Durban, and we could not get him out timeously because I was told that a strike was going on at that prison, a POPCRU strike, and the police who are herein present indicated that they were going to assist me to get him down here.  So we had to get the police moving from this place to go and fetch him from the Westville Prison.  He arrived five minutes ago, Mr Chairman.  I had already indicated to the house.  I told them the reason why we are waiting and I apologised to them.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are we ready to proceed.

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, we are ready to proceed.  The first incident we are going to deal with is that affecting the killing of Mr Mxenge.  Mr Chairman, before we proceed may I request that the legal representatives herein present put their names on record first.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR JANSEN: I am Advocate C R Jansen.  I appear as counsel for Captain Dirk Coetzee.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, I am De Wet Marais.  I appear as counsel for David Tshikalanga and Almond Nofomela, the applicants.
/MR JANSEN

MR JANSEN: Sorry, Mr Chairman, may I also add that I appear on instructions of my attorney, Mr Julian Knight.

MR MOOSA: Mr Chairman, it's Imram Moosa.  I appear on behalf of the family of Griffiths Mongise Mxenge, and I appear on instruction of Bheka Shezi & Partners.

CHAIRPERSON: You may begin.

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, as I had indicated earlier on that they were going to start with the Mxenge matter.  I have indicated to members of the Committee in chambers that I have placed two books on the table referred to as Evidence Book 2 and Evidence Book 3.  Mr Chairman, I am going to refer to Evidence Book 2, page 54 thereof.  Book 2, page 54 thereof, Mr Chairman.  On page 54 there is a letter sent by us to the investigative unit requesting assistance inasfar as the service of form 2 is concerned.  Mr Chairman will note paragraph (b) affects this hearing as far as Mxenge is concerned, and these are the people implicated.  May I indicate that the first person, Sergeant B du Preez, has been informed.  I have a return of service.  The second one, Jan Abraham du Preez, the form has gone out, I have not received a return of service.  The third and the fourth is one and the same person, Warrant-Officer Paul van Dyk.  The form went out, but it was returned to me on the basis that the address given was a wrong address.  The fifth one, Captain Andrew R Taylor, it has been served, I have a return of service with me.  That is all in as far as it affects Mxenge.  Mr Chairman, there is another person affected by the Mxenge matter.  That is van der Hoven, who is a co-accused in the criminal trial, Mr Chairman.  We could not get the address for van der Hoven in order to inform him.  The
	/address
address was forwarded to me by letter late Friday in Cape Town, and by that time we did not have enough time to issue the form to him.  But, Mr Chairman, I can make an undertaking that the attorney is in Durban, and I am told van der Hoven is in Durban, that the service will be done to him today.  That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Aren't there other persons also mentioned?

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, there may be other persons mentioned, but these are the persons implicated that I have identified.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You may proceed.

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, I will then hand over to my colleague, Advocate Jansen.

MR JANSEN: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members.  As stated I appear for Mr Dirk Coetzee.  Before I wish to call him as - the applicant as a witness, I just briefly wish to make a preliminary comment on the mode of leading our evidence.  I understood this morning that we will be dealing with the three incidents, the Mxenge matter, the Khondile matter and the Pillay matter separately.  Those are the incidents which relate to paragraphs 3, 5 and 10 of the schedule to the applicants' application.
Mr Chairman, you would, with respect, appreciate that as far as the requirements of the Act is concerned, especially where evidence relating to orders and the justification and the perceived justification thereof is concerned, a certain amount of background evidence relating to the Security Police, the culture therein, and background information in general, will be relevant as far as that is concerned.  I intend leading the evidence about
	/the incident
the incident itself, and then returning to the background evidence as far as the Mxenge incident is concerned, but I will not be repeating that - all that background evidence in each and every case, as far as the Khondile and the Pillay case is concerned.  So if that evidence could just then be seen as led - as being led as far as all the incidents for which amnesty is sought is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: You may decide to lead that evidence first before dealing with the specific applications for amnesty.

MR JANSEN: Yes, if you think that better.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is convenient.

MR JANSEN: Yes.  No, certainly we will do that then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, you may proceed.

MR JANSEN: I then wish to call the applicant, Mr Dirk Johannes Coetzee, to testify.  He will be giving his evidence in English and he will be taking the oath.
MR JANSEN CALLS

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: (Sworn, States)

CHAIRPERSON: Where possible, whilst you are leading this evidence, if you can refer us to the volume that has been handed to us as Evidence Book 1.  I don't know whether you've seen this.

MR JANSEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Wherever possible, if you are going to refer to page and paragraph, it might assist.

MR JANSEN: Yes, we'll do so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR JANSEN: May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
/MR JANSEN

MR JANSEN: Thank you.

MR JANSEN: QUESTIONED BY MR JANSEN

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee, could you just stage your age for the record.

WITNESS:   I am 51 years old, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Where are you presently employed?

WITNESS:   I am employed with the National Intelligence Agency.

MR JANSEN: From the period August ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt you please.  I would like to appeal to photographers that use flash lights that they must desist from doing so please.  Our permission has not been asked in that regard, and had you asked us you would have then told you.  I am sorry to cause you any embarrassment, but flash light photographs, we would like that to cease now.  I am sorry, Mr Coetzee, you may proceed.

WITNESS:   Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Coetzee, from the period August 1980 to December 1981 you were the commander of the Section C1 Unit of the Security Police Headquarters.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: And it was based at Vlakplaas.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR JANSEN: It was during your duties there that you were involved in the Mxenge matter, in the Mxenge murder.

WITNESS:  That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee, as far as your personal background is concerned, you were born in 1945 in Pokwani in the Eastern Cape, is that correct?

WITNESS:   In the Northern Cape, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Sorry.  Where did you grow up?

WITNESS:   At the tender age of two years, I think, my father moved to Pretoria and I grew up for the rest of my school days in Pretoria,

MR JANSEN: /Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Did you grow up in an Afrikaans family?