Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I telephoned him to come and help me in prison and I told him I had a problem and he came to see me.  He asked me if I had filled in the indemnity forms and I told him "yes", and he told me he was going to bring other forms because it may happen that the first one which I filled, was not, never reached the destination.

MR RICHARD: Did Mr Mashishi say he should get the other forms that you had filled in and have a look at them before completing any more forms or did he just proceed to complete that one dated November 1996?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I had already sent other forms and I explained to him and he said to me probably they were not received, it is better for me to fill in other forms.

MR RICHARD: Did you ask him to explain why certain questions were asked  and did he explain the meaning of the questions, why it was being asked?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, where is this taking us to?

MR RICHARD: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this taking us to?

MR RICHARD: My last question is which form do you stand by, a contradiction?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he hasn't completed any of these things.  You can see from his signature he can hardly write.  Mr Skosana, did you complete any of these forms in your own handwriting, did you write any form, or did other people always help to you complete these things?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: They were helping me.

CHAIRPERSON: So he hasn't completed any of these forms, so where does it take us?

MR RICHARD: One more question.  So you were happy with the last form you completed with Mr Mashishi and that is your application?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now in Mashishi's form there is a question which says "did you benefit in any way" and your answer was
"... yes, our aim has been done, therefore we benefitted."
	Did that mean that you got any monetary benefit or financial benefit or privileges or did you just win the struggle?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I benefitted in the struggle.

MR RICHARD: I believe I have canvassed this in shorthand and if I continue, I am asking him to repeat evidence that is incorporated by referring to the others.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Richard.  Mr Mokoena, do you have any questions?

MR MOKOENA: No questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have one question Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MTANGA: Mr Skosana, will I be correct to say the reason that you link the death of Emma Mtsweni to the ANC's political struggle, it is because - I am saying will I be correct to say that the reason that you link the death of Emma Mtsweni to the ANC's political struggle is because the deaths of the parents of the comrades affected the welfare of the comrades?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Is there another reason apart from this, that you would say was the reason why you killed, why she was killed by yourself and other comrades?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, we killed her because she wasn't supposed to do that, because an injury to one is an injury to all.  This affected us, it affected the people who were not entirely involved.

MS MTANGA: Tell me what would be the situation where a person, let's assume in this case, Emma had beaten up the parents of July and Ernest Mtsweni, would the comrades have been involved in this instance to kill her?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: If you have beaten someone, there is a difference in beating and killing.

MS MTANGA: What would happen if she had beaten them to death?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: What she did was evil because she had killed and she killed two people, we killed her because we were also preventing her from killing us.

MS MTANGA: If she had beaten them to death, Mr Skosana, what would you and the organisation have done about her?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: We were going to sit down with her because we were going to understand that an accident doesn't always happen and an accident is something that happens to everyone.  One cannot run away from that.  I may just take a walk and meet an accident.

MS MTANGA: I am not saying they would have had an accident, I am saying she would have beaten them up to death.

CHAIRPERSON: Assume she wasn't aged, she was a very strong woman and she would just beat these two people to death, just imagine that.

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: It means she was also going to be beaten to death.

MS MTANGA: Can I conclude for you the reason for you to kill her in this situation is because she would have caused the death of your fellow comrades, and therefore affected your fellow comrades' welfare?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  The fact that she was apparently associated with Mbokodo, did that play any role in the action that was taken against her?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Her witchcraft was the reason she was killed and also that she was part of the organisation which we opposed.    In meetings we were told that we were opposing this other organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Mbokodo?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any other questions from the Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Tell me, at the mountain was she confronted about the fact that she was a supporter of Mbokodo?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: No, she was not questioned anything about her association with Mbokodo, because at the mountain it was out of control.

ADV SANDI: When did you become aware for the first time that she was a member of Mbokodo?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Members of Mbokodo used to go to her home at night, they never went there during the day.

ADV SANDI: I suppose from what  you are saying, you must have seen these members of Mbokodo coming to her house at night, when was that?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I used to see them all the time, and their cars, parked outside her yard.

ADV SANDI: Who were these people from Mbokodo who were coming to her house at night?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: They were people from Ndebele, people who came after the violence in 1996.

ADV SANDI: What did you do with that information when you became aware that she had this association with members of Mbokodo?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: We watched her and the fact that her children never attended any of the meetings and we were just watching that her members do not kill our members.

ADV SANDI: You say you were watching her, who was that, who are you referring to when you say "we were watching her", yourself and who?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I alone.

ADV SANDI: Was it just yourself?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I raised this in a meeting and it was said that one of her children should join our organisation so that we know what is going on within the Mbokodo.

ADV SANDI: You say you raised it at a meeting, was anyone of your co-applicants present at that meeting, where you raised this thing?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: No.

ADV SANDI: Her association as you said, with Mbokodo, was it one of the reasons why she was killed?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: No, that is not.  I knew this and so she was just my enemy because of this fact because I hated Mbokodo members.  Whenever you come across them, they would chase you at night.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but tell me at that time would it not, if a person associated with such a body, the Mbokodo, which was opposed to the liberation struggle, wouldn't that have been something everyone would know in the community?