Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DREYER: Why then was that omitted, because what I find strange is that in the total testimony which you have delivered here today, when you were occupied with orders, you came back to Gen Oelofse many a time, but when you are busy with your amnesty application, which is the most important thing before you here today, you omit the name of Gen Oelofse.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I do not omit the name of Gen Oelofse, he is my alibi, he is the person who specifically issued the order to me to move out that night.

MR DREYER: And then you also say that you received an order from him that evening, but I don't understand how many orders do you have to receive in order to go over to revolution or acts of terror before you decided that this is the real thing?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Constand Viljoen or Ferdi Hartzenberg did not have the authority to give me orders.  The person who gave me orders was Gen Japie Oelofse.

MR DREYER: And the video material that we have watched, if we add that to your application which has been submitted to the Committee, we then have a fourth construct, because there the leader of the AWB is speaking and he is calling people and telling them, this is the time to shoot, shoot, shoot, and if you cannot get firearms or buy firearms, or if you cannot require a licence, then steal the firearms.
	How much of an order was that, especially coming from the leader of the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: As a trained soldier and as Chief Commandant of area 9, I waited for instructions from my General, my General was Gen Japie Oelofse and I did receive such orders, that I should go on a 24 hour assistance.

MR DREYER: If the leader of the AWB say now is the time to shoot, shoot, shoot, why would you wait for a further or secondary order?  What other interpretation would you lend to now is the time?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Eugene Terreblanche has been shooting since 1973.

MR DREYER: Mr Kloppers, why then was this not happening since 1973, why was there not a revolution since 1973?  Would you say that the calls from the AWB leader was not the real thing?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I cannot speak or answer for the leader.  I believe that the leader will answer that himself, but as far as it concerns me, my instructions came from Gen Japie Oelofse, he is the person from whom I accepted them, from no one else.
	If one works according to a structure or a hierarchy, one will see that one never goes above your immediate superior.

MR DREYER: Now, we come to the Order Group meeting which you attended, and you returned to your group of people ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed to that meeting.  I think we must go back to page 22, paragraph 44.  You see Mr Kloppers, can you give him a copy of that page if you don't mind, you are saying the motive for the deeds committed by me on behalf of the AWB under command of Gen Constand Viljoen and in cooperation with Dr Ferdi Hartzenberg, was to establish a political revolt.  In so doing to prevent the government of the time from going forth, and so on and so on.
	Now, from your answers that you have given to Mr Dreyer, it seems to me that you personally did not receive any orders from Gen Constand Viljoen or from Dr Hartzenberg?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, your evidence gives the impression that you are saying that you did get such orders.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is not what I said.  What should have stood here is the motive for the deeds committed by me which I committed on behalf of the AWB under orders of Gen Oelofse in cooperation with Gen Constand Viljoen and Dr Ferdi Hartzenberg.
	As I have explained the guerilla war fare before, I would like to say that Gen Constand Viljoen along with 35 other Generals had certain duties, and Ferdi Hartzenberg together with Iron and Steel and Mineworkers Union, also had certain duties.
	That is why I implicated them in this.

CHAIRPERSON: My question to you was, looking at the sentence as it stands, the impression you give is that you got that orders from Gen Viljoen?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It looks like it, but that is not what I mean.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, why didn't you say what you wanted to mean in your statement?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I cannot respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: As I said it should not read as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did the mistake appear?  You see Mr Kloppers, I am asking you this question because we must be careful and guard against saying things about people which are not correct.
	What you are saying here, you are saying something, the impression that is being conveyed here, you are conveying a certain impression about Gen Viljoen and now you are saying it is not so.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It is not like that.  I never received any direct orders from Constand Viljoen or any other person.  The only person from whom I received orders, was Gen Oelofse.

MS VAN DER WALT: When I read this and according to my instructions which I received from Mr Kloppers, this is definitely a mistake because it doesn't read correctly.
	The order did not come from them, it was in cooperation with Constand Viljoen and Ferdi Hartzenberg.  It is not the correct order.

CHAIRPERSON: Then it must now be stated properly that what is being said here, is not correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: That which is written here is incorrect, but his testimony has consistently been correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that is what I mean.

MS VAN DER WALT: Therefore what appears here is my error and it can only have occurred when I compiled the document.

CHAIRPERSON: But he did not correct this in his evidence in chief?  No, before we stopped for lunch, I asked you to give me references, pages and references and paragraphs where this witness incriminates Gen Viljoen and Dr Hartzenberg, and you gave me those pages, and this is one of the areas that you gave me.
	No mention was made that this was incorrect.

MS VAN DER WALT: I must apologise, I did not check it with him again.  I only looked for where the names appeared, because that is what you asked me to do.
	But I did not look at the sentences here, it was not his testimony, it is an error.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kloppers, the reason why I am unhappy and uncomfortable about this as to why it was not corrected, is because sometimes we are accused of not informing people that they are being incriminated.
	Now, one may get the impression here that we failed to inform Gen Viljoen that you were saying certain things about him, which could be incriminating and which now turns out are not correct.  That is why we are unhappy if people, we want people to be careful before they begin to incriminate others, because it can cause problems.
	That is why I am uncomfortable about this, do you understand?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Chairperson, I understand you completely.  My entire testimony has not once incriminated anyone.  This section which has appeared on paper, is faulty, I do not agree with it and that is why I stated it.  I discussed it with my Advocate because this is not what I said.
	I have never received any orders from Gen Constand Viljoen or anyone else.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us look at page 6 ...

MR MALAN: Chair, will you allow me just to ask a question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR MALAN: Mr Kloppers, after this was indicated to you, you had the documents in front of you and you said you wished to correct it that it should read and I quote you "the motive for the deeds committed by me on behalf of the AWB on the order of Gen Oelofse and in cooperation with Gen Constand Viljoen and Dr Ferdi Hartzenberg", is that how it should read?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, that is correct.