Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

YASMINE SOOKA: Just a few questions.  You said right at the beginning that you were in the full-time employ of Sactwu as a literacy director. Were you one of the members of the executive committee?

MS DEBORAH: Yes, I was one of the members of the executive committee.  There were three who were like on the payroll, I was getting paid.  The permanent organiser, one of the - just before (indistinct), we were getting paid, but every year they had to have re-elections, yes, and I was kept on.

YASMINE SOOKA: In the time that you helped and assisted students to leave the country, how many students do you, could you assess actually left the country in that time?

MS DEBORAH: Gee, there was for instance, a particular day when the Kombi went three times to Zeerust.  We mostly went - our contacts were in the rural area of Zeerust.  My brother Tani did most of the driving. Solomon Mahlanga was one of the students that later left the country, through that age, but we actually did not even want to know their names.  It was very difficult even to assess if they were working for the system or not. It was just a situation of desperation. Hundreds of students were shipped out of the
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country during that period, just after June, you know, June and July.

YASMINE SOOKA: Since we have taken this step to democracy, what do you actually do with yourself right now?

MS DEBORAH: After the banning order was lifted, I continued with my studies through Unisa and qualified in human resources. I worked as a personnel manager for one company for about eight years and at the moment I am employed by Old Mutual Properties as property investment analyst.

YASMINE SOOKA: So you have in fact survived all of this.

MS DEBORAH: Yes, I could simply say I am still coping, there is still a lot that I am healing myself with.  For instance, my marriage didn't work out, you know, invariably coming from prison, five years I had to spend, my husband came from Pretoria and he had to live in Pretoria while I lived in Krugersdorp.  We were not allowed to live together and thereafter it became very difficult and I am all right.  When I look, comparatively speaking, comparing myself with others.

YASMINE SOOKA: Part of our job as you know, is to make recommendations to Government.  So as to ensure that violations like these don't take place again.  Is there anything that you would like to add in that respect?

MS DEBORAH: Yes, it is true, it is very inhuman acts. Actually, I think one of the things that sustained me, during solitary confinement when I lived with these people, is that were times when I pitied them more than hated them. You know.  I couldn't understand, I remember I used to tell them that I am a daughter and a wife, I had a little baby that I had left at home with my mother.  I think I really pitied them, it is a very inhuman act and it shouldn't
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happen. I don't think they are happy either.

YASMINE SOOKA: Throughout all of this the one thing that remains in one's mind is the fact that even in this system there was still policemen who were human, and I think particularly of  Taljaard who cared enough to try and make a difference.

MS DEBORAH: Yes, it is true, because of such people that you really, you know, you really feel that there were people who were human, yes, for such people like Taljaard, because he couldn't stand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much. Could I just ask if any of the other Commissioners would have any questions. Tom, you seem to know ...

THOMAS MANTHATA: Yes. Political parties being banned at that time, and I think there was the Black People's Convention.  What did you think of it?

MS DEBORAH: At the time once SASO emerged, there were no political parties, political parties were banned and it is only after SASO emerged that the Black People's Convention was born.  But before SASO, there was a lull in the country and political parties were banned.

THOMAS MANTHATA: That's true, your activities, if I understand you correctly, were by and large during the era of the Black People's Convention which was started roughly in 1973.  And most of the account you give is around that time.

MS DEBORAH: You know, I meant just before, before it was born, there was a lull in the country.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You taught Power of Free Method, which I guess was very powerful and very successful. Where would you place that method now in the education systems of our day?

MS DEBORAH: I think it is still relevant, Tom, it is still very relevant because it inculcates a sense of
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self-reliance.  That's what we still need.  We still need that. It is a very revolutionary method and it succeeded in revolutionising people at that time. It is still a very powerful method and still very effective. It can still be used to inculcate a sense of self-reliance, especially for people who still think that they should wait for you know, hand-outs.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When you were held in Pietermaritzburg, after how long were you given access to the district surgeon?

MS DEBORAH: After - I was detained in February, after, in about May, I was given access to the district surgeon in May, when Taljaard called the district surgeon to come and see me. It was after four months.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Debs, what would you say to the young ladies today, more especially when you look at your past, perhaps even putting together the experiences of people like Lulu, people like Denyon Nintinso. What do you think of your experiences?

MS DEBORAH: Tom, for one, I have got no regrets. I want to say that, quoting for instance Tensuous, where she one day encouraged me and then smuggled a message to me when I was at the Fort, that we are in the struggle because we are sure of victory.  If we were not sure of victory we wouldn't be in the struggle. I would say to them conviction goes a long way and principles go a long way.  You do something not for reward, not for recognition.  You do something because you are convinced that it is the right thing to do.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you, Debs.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Hlengiwe?

MS MKHIZE: I have one quick question for you. Would you say besides an acknowledgement of the value behind all the
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sacrifices that people of South Africa have made, there is room now to look at their emotional scars and begin to create structures to deal with them?

MS DEBORAH: I still think it is still very important because some people might have been lucky and have you know, access to counselling, or even family support. One thing that helped me was that my family was very, very supportive.  My parents, my siblings, in spite of the fact that I remember that at some point when I was in prison, invariably all of them - I only learnt later when I came that there was a time when for several days, all of them, all of them, from my sister, my brother, all of them were imprisoned to be questioned by me.  It affected the entire family.  So I still feel that there is a need for people who need healing, to have access to this. There is definitely a need for that.  I am not sure if I am completely healed myself.  There are times when I question myself and ask myself isn't it because I haven't healed, isn't it because I haven't healed. I think it is very important that there should be, people should have access to that kind of healing. We need that. Including the perpetrators of the violence.  I would still like to see for instance what that man Sosobe is doing, you know. One would still like to see him coming up. He knows so much.