Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: I did not influence him in any way, I believed I was helping him when I pointed out to him that he would be committing a criminal offence if he lied under oath, whether to the TRC or in court.  But I did not pressure him to pick a specific version.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Mr Semenya, do you want to cross-examine?

MR SEMENYA: Yes, Deputy-Chairperson.  If I could just be given the various statements.

DR BORAINE: You have them already.

MR SEMENYA: The ones that was given to the witness there, with the highlighting etc.

DR BORAINE: Could we have those back again please.

MR SEMENYA: Ms Groenewald, yesterday we stated that we were not having documents and I think the Chairperson was told that no, you have the documents, the only thing that is missing is the heading of the statements, did you hear that aspect of the explanation?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Not the heading sir, as well as addresses, ID numbers, personal details that could lead people to opposing.

MR SEMENYA: Did you hear that statement?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Now, let us take for instance the handwritten statement was only given to us today, is that correct?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Now, let us take the handwritten statement and I show you page 20 which Commissioner Ntsebeza has made reference to.

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: The typed statement?

MR SEMENYA: Yes, if you look at the typed statement at top, you will see I made a question mark, it is page 20, right?  That statement does not have the (indistinct) which is in the handwritten statement that the Winnie Mandela was there when I was assaulted, is that right?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes, that was moved to the relevant section with the correction as Mr Mekgwe indicated it should be made to the statement.

MR SEMENYA: So it was moved to the right section?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: To the relevant section in the statement.

MR SEMENYA: So the statements were given were not only deleted the personal information, it was also moved?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: This statement is the only statement where  such a change was made and it was made only because Mr Mekgwe indicated that that change should be made, that his second version was indeed the correct version.

MR SEMENYA: Okay, let us look at page 18, or at least two page 18's.
 The two page 18's are not identical, am I correct?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: What explains the difference?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: As we have been saying sir, the fact that Mr Mekgwe changed his version as we were taking the statement, and then indicated that the second version was the correct version, the version that he wanted in his statement.

MR SEMENYA: Is that explanation why we were not given that two page 18's?

DR BORAINE: Ms Groenewald, did you hear the question?

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Yes, I did.  You were provided with all the statements sir, as far as I am aware.

MR SEMENYA: Only today Ma'am.

DR BORAINE: Please answer the question.

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: That is possible.  The version which you have then received, would then have been the correct version as Mr Mekgwe indicated he wanted his statement to read.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairman, Hanif, I was advised by Mr Mapoma with me that the only version he has given Mr Semenya today, was the handwritten version.  The typed versions were already in his possession.

DR BORAINE: I think that we really have to complete this and I think you must decide between the two parties as to which statements are there and which aren't and if necessary we can always recall a witness.  Could we make some progress?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Chairman, I would suggest that Mr Mekgwe is represented by an Attorney.  It is quite clear that under cross-examination Mr Mekgwe had admitted or had averred in his evidence that Mrs Mandela was part of the assault and I think we must ask his Attorney to tender in as a document that we will use, the one that his client accepts is the correct version, to clear this mystery up.

DR BORAINE: Do you agree with that?

YASMINE SOOKA: And Mr Chairman, if I may suggest that once that is done, then possibly Mr Mekgwe can be recalled for cross-examination by any party who has an interest in it.  The essential averment seems to have remained the same.

DR BORAINE: Right, can we follow that procedure and if he needs to be recalled, we can recall him and you can cross-examine him.  Ms Groenewald you are excused.

HANNELIESEL GROENEWALD: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Jabu Sithole?   Good day Mr Sithole.

MR SITHOLE: I will express myself in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand.  Thank you very much for having come to appear before this Commission.  We also appreciate the fact that you sat here throughout the morning, because you were supposed to have given your testimony yesterday.
 Yasmin Sooka will help you in giving your evidence, but first you should take the oath.

MR SITHOLE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please just let's have order.  Hanif?

DR BORAINE: Mr Chairman, can we just note for the record that none of us up here have a statement in front of us and I am wondering if there is any point in hearing this witness without a statement before us?  Perhaps Hanif can guide us?

MR VALLY: The witness declined to let us have a statement at the time we interviewed him, but he said he would be willing to give a statement when we subpoenaed him.  There are certain questions that we do need to ask him.  He was arrested for the murder of Stompie Sepei and the kidnapping of the other youths and I think it is some important information that we need to get from him.

DR BORAINE: Mr Chairperson, may I suggest to you that we ask Hanif and his staff that this witness stand down at this moment, and that a statement is taken and is distributed and then we can hear the witness again.

MR VALLY: I just don't want to anticipate what may happen, but if he repeats what he said to us the last time, that he is not willing to let us have a statement, but there are issues that we need clarified that he is privy to and that is why we subpoenaed him.

DR BORAINE: Can we ask whether he is legally represented?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't have an Attorney.  I do not have an Attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he will be under some disadvantage and we don't want to place him under a disadvantage.  We don't want to place you at a disadvantage, because you may encounter some legal problems.
 Your giving statements may have some repercussions and we do not want you to give a statement or testify before the Commission without having any legal representation.  And we think that it is a good idea that you get an Attorney to represent you.
 I think we should probably let him stand down for this 
session and let's try to arrange this.  Thank you.  Xoliswa Falati?

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.   Good day.  We would like to apologise for the inconvenience, you were supposed to have appeared yesterday, but it was not to be.
 Are you the only one who is going to testify or is the person sitting next to you, also going to testify?  Could you please stand?

XOLISWA FALATI: (sworn states)

MR KUNY: Ms Falati, how old are you?

MS FALATI: I am 45 years old.  We came to the Transvaal at a later stage and whilst I was very, very young.

MR KUNY: Where did you attend school?

MS FALATI: At Hohlange in Durban.

MR KUNY: And after finishing school, where did you continue to live?

INTERPRETERS: We are having a problem with the witness, the witness would have to state what language she is going to testify in so that she doesn't pose a problem for the interpreters.