Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-04

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Honourable Chairperson, here I planned, I took into consideration the match, the time when people will be moving out of the stadium.  In the aim of what I wanted to achieve, what I wanted to achieve was that they must enjoy watching the football match and at the same time they must help the struggle by moving out of the stadium and taking the message back that the country is at war, with our vote let's do something.  Just to elaborate on this, why Ellis Park?  I'll take you back 1975 when the regime invaded Angola, the white community of this country they were not concerned.  I mean white community in the sense of people who were having the vote, their sons and daughters were invading our neighbouring countries, they started to be concerned only when their sons and daughters they were coming back in black plastic bags.  It's then when they started to question the then Government.  They went to Botswana, Zimbabwe, it was the same situation.  Here it was a question of it's no more in Botswana, Mozambique or Angola, this thing is happening here, they are not going to be transported in black plastic bags in the sense of we have got the vote, let them use the vote, let them start to query the Government.  This was the reason that place it there, they must enjoy it as they have done in the past, coming back, celebrating, slaughtering of innocent kids in our neighbouring countries and here now it was the time for them to indicate to their Government that it's no more outside our boundaries, outside our borders, this is happening within the country, that what ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: So when they were brought back in black bags from Ellis Park they would start questioning their government, is that what you say because you made the point a few minutes ago that when they were brought back in black bags from Angola they started to question.  When the children were brought back in black bags from Angola they started to question the Government.  You said that yourself a few minutes ago, is that what you meant to happen at Ellis Park?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: To go back to my reasoning of Ellis Park, these were the people with the vote.  Soldiers are soldiers because of that vote.  Here it was for them, not to kill them as I've indicated, this is totally not the policy of the movement, was not the policy of the movement as it is still standing but these are the civilians with the vote.  It's not only soldiers that are voting and if you want to cut the hand that feed the soldier, cut the hand that support the Government, make them aware that they are not protected.  Here it's a question of protection.  We're fighting to have a say in this Government and I think we did achieve that.  Other people were voting to deny us that opportunity and it was their vote.  Our parents they were paying tax but people were having the vote to control this tax.  They were not concerned, this was the reason.  Take this to the people who were having the vote, make them aware that this vote - if they are not going or if they are not using it the correct way, one day it will be beyond the leadership's control in the sense that people on the ground at times they act according to the prevailing situation.  It is nice to come and say he was not supposed to act like that but if you are in the situation by that time you might have also taken the same decision.  That's why I'm saying you are in the position to sit down and analyze.  It was bad, sure, the situation by that time it was like that but today it's a different situation.  I think we have got the chance to sit around to peruse our past.  This was what I was fighting for and I think unfortunately, I'll also apologize, unfortunately it's not only on the other side.  If you can go to Soweto you ask any parent who lost a child how does it feel.  It's the same.  We're not all here but at least to listen to our past.  That's the reason.  I didn't intend to kill civilians.  The explosive was placed there for them to exercise or for them to remind the Government that if the Government of the day is protected, they are not protected, this thing is happening now at their doors.  Thank you Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Yes I just want to come back to the question - we're trying to understand what happened on that day.  You've told the Committee it wasn't your intention to cause injury or loss of life and we're trying to understand why you triggered off the device.  Now is it possible you were mistaken about your fears or is it in fact whether people were killed or not would even provide a stronger message to the Government.  It didn't matter, you placed a very powerful bomb near a sporting stadium where there were thousands of people present and you've agreed in your submission, in your evidence, that although it wasn't your intention you did foresee the possibility that people could be killed.
	But you go further.  You say whilst two people were at the vehicle, you then intentionally triggered off the device.  Your intention was to kill those two people, is that no so?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: If the chairperson can allow me, I can also pose the same question back to you.

ADV PRIOR: No please just answer my questions, it's a simple question.  Was it your intention when you activated the timing device to kill those two people who you believe were police or security personnel.  Did you believe it or didn't you?  Sorry, did you intend it or didn't you intend it?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: It was not my intention.

LESTER DUMAKUDE: What did you think would happen to them when you detonated this bomb whilst they were standing next to the vehicle?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: As I've indicated from the onset that a good plan it's only after it had been carried out.  The planning was totally to avoid casualties.  I still stress it totally, if - I repeat - the purpose of placing it was the message.  Dead bodies, they don't take the message back, only living bodies will take the message back, that was the reason.

ADV PRIOR: On behalf of the victims I want to suggest to you that when you say the two deceased - we know there were only two deceased persons, Mr Klukas and Marais, there was no reason why they would act like policemen or security personnel on that occasion.  So I'm suggesting to you that you're not telling us exactly what happened there, you're not telling us where they were going to and you're making it sound as if you no option but to detonate the bomb because you believed that they were going to discover the bomb in the vehicle.

LESTER DUMAKUDE: For your information, today in this free country of ours, I can carry out a citizen arrest.  I feel as part of this country.  Yesterday I was not going to do that.  I strongly say there presence there was of the same purpose, defending and when I balanced the two, many lives are going to be lost if that was not the opportune time to trigger it.  I still repeat it, the plan was totally to avoid that but it was unfortunate at that time.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to explain - we know according to the documentation that 31 other people were injured to varying degrees by the explosion, shrapnel flying around, glass flying around.  Did you anticipate that so many people may well have been injured?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That's news - I depended on the information given by the press but what I've given the account up to now, the two people that I've seen, these are the people that I fully account on.

ADV PRIOR: What about black people at the stadium.  Did you have account of their lives and safety or was that not part of the equation, did it not matter if black people were killed or injured?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: As I've indicated the mission was to avoid civilian life whether black or white.