Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: There were no police at Boipatong at all, the evidence that was led here by Nosenga and others is just nonsense.   We could have been in jail, or I should say we should be in jail.   There were no police at Boipatong.   If the people from Boipatong knew that they were attacked by the people from Kwamadala, the people who were referring to themselves as Sotho, do you think, I want to know if I am telling you lies if I am saying when we went into your houses, we didn't use our real names?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khubeka, you're giving evidence for the benefit of the committee, and we would urge you, if you give your answers, to direct it to us.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: And I have asked you before, and I'm doing it again, when you speak, speak slowly so that the interpreter can have the opportunity to interpret what you are saying.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You've got to understand that not everyone understands the language that you're speaking here.   Do you understand that?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that you know that your brother was in a police Casspir in Boipatong?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: That is not true, I still maintain that is not true.

MR BERGER: Please will you tell the committee about the rapes which occurred in Boipatong during the attack?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I did not get into many houses, I know nothing about the rapes, there's nothing to tell.   You failed to question the person who was talking about that, the one who was raping there, you are asking me that, I now nothing about the rapes, I am not a rapist, I'd propose and the girls would say yes to me.

MR BERGER: Who is the rapist that I should have asked the question to and I did not?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Stikanayo.   I told you, didn't I tell you that I'm going to tell everything that is in my chest, that is Stikanayo, though I did not see him raping, I heard so.

MR BERGER: Well, please tell the committee what you heard about Stikanayo raping?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I heard in court that Stikanayo was involved in rape, that's all.

MR BERGER: Who said that?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I think it was Mr Moloi.

MR BERGER: And after the attack on Boipatong, did you not hear people bragging about having raped women in Boipatong?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, I did not hear that.   I heard that in court.   Oupa Moloi is the one who mentioned that.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Moloi telling the truth?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I don't know.

MR BERGER: You say you are not a rapist, is that the truth?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, I am not a rapist, I am not a rapist, I go to church, I'm a churchgoer, I'm a churchgoer.

MR BERGER: What do you say about the evidence given at the criminal trial about you and Mr Moloi's daughter?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: What evidence was that?

MR BERGER: That on another occasion you had raped Mr Moloi's daughter.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Mr Moloi was telling a lie.   If my memory serves me well, the person who was responsible in my case was Mr Nduli and Mr Kwanase and Mr Mthembo.   I hit his children, Gobe's children, because they were doing that bad things and they were very small, I assaulted them and he got angry, he went to fetch an axe, I told my brother to fight for me because he wanted to hit me, therefore he just decided to tell a lie and said that I am a rapist, and I know very well that my brother was going to hit him so bad, because he was very good in that.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Moloi telling the truth when he said that you and he entered premises in Boipatong and that you were armed with an assegai?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, he is telling the truth if he says I was armed with an assegai.

MR BERGER: And that the two of you entered premises in Boipatong?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: We entered Boipatong, I remember he was next to me and he ran and he disappeared and I didn't know where he went, that was when we were entering Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The question was that you entered premises, not that you entered the township?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, I cannot remember, maybe I did that, but I cannot remember, I cannot remember entering with him some premises, because in the house that I was heading for, I went there with an aim to go and get something or loot something.   I am saying I cannot remember entering premises with Gobe, Mr Oupa Moloi, in one of the houses at Boipatong. The only houses that I entered, I cannot remember seeing him walking along with me in those houses.   I went to that house that was open and there was light inside and I knew that I wanted to get something for myself, I wanted to loot and bring whatever to Kwamadala Hostel to show that I was there, but I couldn't take anything but I decided to make my assegai visible instead.

MR BERGER: You said that your sister died, is that right?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes.   Her name was Nongeba.

MR BERGER: Was her name also Petunia?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, her name was Nongeba, she was a baby, she was one year, four months old.   He was burnt by fire as the people were trying to burn down our house at Zone 8, No 175.

MR BERGER: Where do you mention that, that she was killed, where do you mention that in your statement?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I did not mention that in my statement.

MR BERGER: Why not, you mentioned everything else?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I mentioned that initially, that the person who was helping me making this statement, I couldn't trust the person.   The person mentioned that he or she was a member of ANC, and even Mr Thabiso(?) mentioned that though I could not, yes, I could not trust him, I could not tell him everything.   If he wanted to kidnap me, I couldn't trust him, because I know the people, the ANC members are involved in underground activities, they can do anything.

MR BERGER: So that's the reason you didn't mention the fact that your sister was killed in your human rights violations statement?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that is the reason that made me not to mention that, because that would lead me to mention the Boipatong incident where I killed this child, because I could see that this person was leading me to a trap, he wanted me to mention those things.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Berger.    When was your home burnt, do you remember the year?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: If my memory serves me well, the first attempt was in 1985, '86, '87, '88 and 1989, and then in 1990 it was completely destroyed, I remember in 1985, the first attempt was in 1985 when my sister, Nongeba, died.

MR BERGER: Who else died in your family before the attack on Boipatong?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: That's my sister, that's my sister only, except Themba Mabota who passed away after this incident.

MR BERGER: Was Themba Mabota related to you?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: He's my brother.

MR BERGER: And is he a different person to Themba Khubeka?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Themba Khubeka is also Themba Mabota, he was using two surnames.    His first surname is Mabota.   When my mother got married, at her wedding ceremony, my surname is Khubeka because of the situation.    There is a situation like this, I propose a girl and my surname is Khubeka.   Let's say I don't tell the girl that my surname is Khubeka, only to find that the girl herself is also Khubeka, and the girl will say yes to my proposal.   After some time the girl will tell me that he's got the same surname with me, but I won't reveal that, because I want to go and sleep with this girl.   That is what happened in my case.