Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: My money did not run out, I do not know if he phoned me or I phoned him but I had to come back then.  It could be that he possibly told me to come back, but my money did not run out, no.   But I spoke to him about the registration numbers, but I cannot say exactly if it was that same day or the next day.

MR LAX: Did you have a printout with these numbers on, or were they just hand-written?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember if this guy who helped me printed it out or if he wrote in on a piece of paper.  I'm not quite sure.

MR LAX: Because somewhere there was talk about this chap making enquiries at a registration office and getting proper printouts with addresses and registration numbers.  You know, like you can go to the licensing department and get a printout of who owns what vehicle, or stuff like that.  Do you remember something like that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It could be, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Mr Hardien, and then anything else in South West Africa that you did?  In relation to Mr Slang van Zyl's instruction, what else can you remember that you did in South West Africa?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hardien, just before you proceed, at that stage did you know Mr van Zyl as Mr van Zyl?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you know him as, what name did you know him by?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Theunissen de Wet.

MS COLERIDGE: You then returned back home and you said in your statement that you made in Secunda, that about two weeks after that you were in contact with Mr van Zyl and he came to your house.  Can you remember what transpired there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Can you just repeat, did he come to my house?

MS COLERIDGE: You said that in about August '89, he came to visit you at your house.  Or he could have telephoned you, did he telephone you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He phoned me, he never came to my house.

MS COLERIDGE: Right.  And what did he inform you over the telephone.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot remember.

MS COLERIDGE: Okay.  And then it transpired that you met him at the airport, now I want to take you  ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: When was this now?

MS COLERIDGE: That was probably August '89.  I want to take you to the Athlone Early Learning Centre, where you had met Mr van Zyl at the airport, can you remember that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: How did you know you were supposed to meet Mr van Zyl at the airport?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He phoned me.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did he tell you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I must get to the airport.

MS COLERIDGE: Did he inform you as to what you were required to do?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not at that time, not at that moment when he phoned me.

MS COLERIDGE: And when you went to the airport, who did you meet there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It was Slang.

MS COLERIDGE: Was he alone?

ISGAK HARDIEN: When I met him he came out alone and probably a while later Mr Botha arrived.  He did not want me to see Botha and he did not want Botha to see me.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, what happened then?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He told me then that there were two bags, one has got a bomb in and I must go and place it in the Early Learning Centre.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did you tell him when he told you that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I did not say anything to him.

MS COLERIDGE: Now these two bags, can you describe it for us?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It is a normal heavy sack, a coloured - it looks exactly the same, both looked the same.

MS COLERIDGE: And were they both the same weight?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, the one was empty, the other one had something in it.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did he tell you you must do with the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He told me the bomb was going to be used to frighten the people.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, what happened?

ISGAK HARDIEN: They left and I left.

MS COLERIDGE: And where did you go to from there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I went to my house because it was very early.

MS COLERIDGE: And where was the bomb at that stage?

ISGAK HARDIEN: With me in my room, and approximately after half an hour I went to the centre.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you tell Mr van Zyl as to when the people would be in the centre?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'm not quite sure if I gave him an exact time, but I did tell him that they will be there in the evening.  I cannot tell you now exactly what the time was though.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, did you actually look in the bag and see the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR LAX: What did you do with the other bag?  Why were there two bags?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say.

MR LAX: Did you take both bags or just the one?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Both.

MR LAX: Well why did you take two bags?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He gave me two.

MR LAX: Yes, but surely he must have told you to do something with both bags, what was the object of having two bags?  Was one just a present?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did Mr van Zyl tell you you must do with the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I had to go and place it in the centre because the meeting would be that same evening.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you place the bomb after you went home?  You went to your house, did you go then to the Athlone Learning Centre to place the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: From the airport I went to my house and I stayed there for a while and from there I went with the bomb to the Early Learning Centre.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, earlier on at this hearing we went to the centre to take a look at it and it's quite a big centre, there's a number of rooms, were you just told to put it in the centre anywhere, or was anything more specific mentioned as to whereabouts in the centre the bomb should be put?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I told them that I'd placed it in the hall.  They did not tell me where I must go and place it.

MR LAX: Did you place it in the hall because that's where the meeting was going to be?

ISGAK HARDIEN: There were various meetings there.

MR LAX: In the hall though, as opposed to in the other offices?

ISGAK HARDIEN: There were meetings in the hall, in the boardroom and I just decided on the hall.

MR LAX: So that was just your decision, no-one told you to put it there, that was just your discretion that you put it there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: So can you explain to us where in the centre you placed the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The Committee understands, I placed it in the corner, in the right-hand side of the hall - no, sorry, it was the left side of the hall.

MR LAX: That's the hall on the left of the front entrance to the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: What's called the front entrance, as opposed to the entrance  at the back which is where the parking area is?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, it was in Springbok Street, just as you explained it now.  It was in the front of the building.  The street is Springbok Street.

MS COLERIDGE: And when you placed the bomb in the building, were there people in the building at that time?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MS COLERIDGE: Was there nobody in the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No-one

MR LAX: Surely there was a manager or a watchman or other staff in that building.  Was the whole building completely empty, or was the hall just empty?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The hall was empty.

MR LAX: Yes, but she said the building, not the hall and that's the problem.  She asked you if the building was empty, not if the hall was empty.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Then I did not understand it right.

MR LAX: That's why I'm clarifying it.  So the hall was empty but there were obviously other people around there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did you do after you placed the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I went home.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you meet - was there any plan to meet Mr van Zyl again?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I had to go and meet them, I think it was at the Bellville Holiday Inn.

MS COLERIDGE: And then when you met them there, did you all come together, drive in one car or two cars from the Holiday Inn?

ISGAK HARDIEN: With one vehicle.

MS COLERIDGE: And whose car did you drive in?