Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

MS COLLETT: Whilst I hear what you're saying, Mr Chairman, the fact of the matter is did they have a political objective in kidnapping, depriving the liberty, invading privacy and subjecting persons to an invasion of their dignity on that evening?  And I submit not.  They could have left those people out of it all together because they weren't there voluntarily and anybody would have known that because Nqoya stayed with Gqozo, he didn't go back, that's the evidence, he didn't go back because there was a fear for his safety.  Just assume it was political, why did they have to go and fetch them?  The only reason they fetched those officers and subjected them to the humiliation that they did was because and this is the other side of the coin, Gqozo had stepped down, "now we're free what we want to do" - that's the other side.  Is that not possibly what happened?  Gqozo has now stepped down, take a look Mr Chairman, with respect, those officers that were called in to account were called in after that 6 o'clock when Nkwenkwe knew or had communicated that Gqozo had stood down, most of them were called late evening, they talk about 10 o'clock past, 2 o'clock in the morning.  They were all called there.  Is the other side of the coin not, Gqozo had stood down, now we're free we can do what we want to do, we can call in all those puppets of Gqozo and they must come and account, this is our court, this is our kangaroo court, they must come and account now.  Is that not the other side of the coin?  Is that the other side, is that not probable?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we've got evidence before us which explains their conduct.  Are you suggesting we must reject the evidence?

MS COLLETT: No, I'm suggesting, Mr Chairman, with respect, that we shouldn't take an armchair approach when it comes to this.  If they had wanted the officers to be there, to be a unified front towards Gqozo, why didn't they fetch them earlier on in the day, why did they wait till two o'clock in the morning?

CHAIRPERSON: So you mean if they had fetched them earlier you wouldn't have had a problem?

MS COLLETT: I wouldn't have had a problem with that.  I wouldn't have had one problem with their version, their version is we needed the officers, this is the version of Mfene, we wanted the officers there to show a unified front against Gqozo.  Good idea, fantastic idea.   But why do it once there's talk of Gqozo having stood down, why wait?  Let's exclude that, why wait until the early hours of the next morning to fetch half of them?  Why?  How can that be unified?  They'd been missing for the last twelve hours, why not leave them in their beds?  Who is going to miss one or two officers along the line?  But that's not what happened.  They went and dragged them out of their beds, fetched them, fetched their wives and children and brought them to the police college at a time when it didn't matter.  If they had wanted to show this unified front they should have shown a unified front right from the beginning, they should have rounded up those officers in the afternoon already when they had the plan.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes hadn't they done that?

MS COLLETT: No, with respect Mr Chairman, they didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Haven't they been bringing these people in from time to time?

MS COLLETT: No, Mr Chairman with respect, certain officers were there, Oosthuizen, Sims, Bongashe, they were readily available.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, precisely.

MS COLLETT: They were readily available.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they not officers ...(intervention)

MS COLLETT: They were there, they were prevented from leaving.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS COLLETT: But we're talking about the other ones, there were only a very few officers there, the rest of them were rounded up in the evening and the people say as an allegation was made against them, they were rounded up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes so are you agreeing that there were officers present at all relevant times in this hall?

MS COLLETT: There were officers present because they happened to be there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS COLLETT: But the fact of the matter is that's where the idea of the unified front falls flat.  Mr Chairman, I have no further submissions except to ask that the wife and the child and Commissioner Nqoya be declared - be recommended that they be declared victims of gross human violations.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you of course realise that that goes by violation of human rights, it's only committed with a political objective.

MS COLLETT: That's if you find there was a political objective, obviously.
NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Mapoma, any submissions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.
	Chairperson, I would like to start off by saying that the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, Mr Mapoma.   Mr Nompozolo, in the normal course of events you wouldn't make any further submissions in the matter but do you necessarily want to stay and listen to the rest of the addresses or not?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.  I'll be grateful if I can be released, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: May I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no thank you very much for your assistance Mr Nompozolo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?