Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is true, but if you are going to remember well, this was written after the Dr Nelson Mandela had already forwarded a statement saying that all the Security Forces should apply for indemnity, but we did not know more about this process, we wrote this letter because we wanted to be freed from jail.  That is the reason why we did not know what was going to happen.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask this question one more time, there are other matters on the roll.  What is contained in this letter on page 35, is that the truth or not?  You don't seem to want to answer the question?

LUCKY SITHOLE: It is true.

CHAIRPERSON: That is how it happened?

LUCKY SITHOLE: As I explained initially that everything in this letter was written by me, but what is important is this, during this process, we did not reveal all the activities of the ANC, because we couldn't trust even the authorities in jail, because we regarded them as our enemies.
	We wanted them to understand the indemnity, but had to understand what I had written here.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, when did you now decide to trust the authorities in an attempt to get out, at what stage of your term of imprisonment?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Even today I cannot trust the authorities, and I will never trust them, but what I wrote here, I wrote it because I was with the ANC leadership, those who would pay us a visit, and they told us how to forward our applications.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you start to trust the authorities?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I cannot trust them, even up to date.

CHAIRPERSON: So what made you tell the truth then in the amnesty application?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I did that after meeting with the ANC leadership, who used to pay us visits in prison.  They explained the procedure.

CHAIRPERSON: You trust the authorities now?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I cannot trust the jail authorities, I only trust the ANC leaders.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the ANC leaders were in power when you wrote that letter on page 35, Nelson Mandela was the President of the country?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you fill in this form?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I cannot remember the date, but all I can say is that it was October 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about your application for amnesty?

MR LAX: Page 7 has a date on, it looks like the 7th of April 2000, that is the date it was attested.

MS MOHAMED: Sorry Mr Chairman, if I may come in here and assist, when we initially received instructions in this matter, we contacted the TRC in an endeavour to find out whether the application had been finalised or not, we were then informed telephonically that when initial application was made, the file was closed administratively and should the applicant desire for his application to be reconsidered, he should make the necessary representations by means of the letter, and the TRC would then place it before the Committee for further consideration.
	By follow up  through that, the TRC offices faxed the amnesty application to us for completion.  We then duly attended to assisting the applicant fill in the form at Westville prison, and that was sent to the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did he not fill in any initial forms?

MS MOHAMED: I am not certain what had happened to that initial form.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, when did you feel comfortable now to make the application for indemnity then?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Application for indemnity, is this separate letter, the one that you just talked about now?  After that we talked about amnesty application, application for amnesty, not indemnity?

CHAIRPERSON: When did you feel comfortable making an application for indemnity?

LUCKY SITHOLE: The first application for indemnity, if I remember well, I wrote that application after Nelson Mandela announced that people should apply for indemnity.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you satisfied then that you could trust whoever was going to hear the indemnity application, and that you should tell the truth?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Truly speaking, I did not have much knowledge about whether my application was going to be considered.  I never told myself that the time would come and a person would be sitting in this kind of a forum, testifying.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am not talking about this kind of forum, I am talking about indemnity.  When did you think that you stood a chance of being released by way of indemnity?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I thought that people would just read this application and then the person would be convinced after reading my application.

CHAIRPERSON: You trusted the authorities then?

LUCKY SITHOLE: It did not come to me directly, I was given it by the authorities, it was coming from the mail and then they told me that they were going to rewrite this letter again for me, as  you can see that the handwritings are not the same, and then the person took the copy and rewrote the whole thing, and then they only asked for a few details like ID numbers and the like.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that that wrote it?

LUCKY SITHOLE: One of the jail authorities whose name is Morris Mbela.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Now you read what he wrote in this form?

LUCKY SITHOLE: He wrote this letter and then he read it out to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, were you satisfied, did you not see what he wrote?

LUCKY SITHOLE: The situation in prison is like this, after forwarding an appeal, no one will read it out to you, you would be told that it has failed, and then you would be sent back to the jail and you wouldn't have a say thereafter.  Things are only changing now.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you signed this document, were you aware of its contents?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I take it as what he wrote here is exactly what I told him, as I am reading it now, but when he was busy writing, I did not read this, but I only signed.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that he wrote down what you told him?

LUCKY SITHOLE: When I look at what I wrote and reconcile with this other, though it is not the same, but at least it is more or less the same thing.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not answering my question, my question is are you satisfied that he recorded what you told him?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: And thereafter, when you were satisfied, were you satisfied then?  You are satisfied now, I am accept that, then, before you signed it, did you sign it on the basis that he had properly recorded what you had told him?

LUCKY SITHOLE: As I have explained now, I am satisfied, but at the time you would be told to sign here, and you wouldn't be asked to say anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Now you have already told us that you are satisfied that the contents of page 35 is in fact the truth and what occurred, and how it occurred, of the incident?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a similar version on page 34, under paragraph 11 and I am going to read it to you.

MR LAX: Page 34, paragraph 11.  You are going away from it, go back to page 34.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 34.

MR LAX: Your finger is there, paragraph 11, just above your signature.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to read it with you.  The question is "your justification for regarding the offence referred to in paragraph 9(c), which was robbery, two counts of robbery, to be an act with a political objective, and your answer is as follows
"... why I say my crime is politically motivated, because whenever we are seeking employment, nobody was prepared to employ us, because they (I think that word was supposedly) were saying we have communism ideologies.  So I was from exile, I was forced by circumstances to commit this crime.  There was no financial resources."
	That is in line with what you say on page 35.  Do you agree?