Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

MR WESSELS: But Mr Barnard, if for example, you were to drive and you were alone in the vehicle and you drove passed the house as you indeed drove on the day when Dr Webster was shot, it would have meant that Dr Webster would have been on the left side of the road?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: So in order to shoot him,  you would have had to stop, climb out, walk around the back, shoot him, get back into the vehicle and drive off?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, with a short shotgun, especially if you are left-handed like me, you can open the window and lean out.  Especially at the point where I saw him disembarking from the vehicle, if I straightened my arm with the firearm and leant out of the window, I could shoot him at point blank range as he was climbing out of his bakkie, but subsequently I thought that I might have to remain in motion, and that is why I decided to involve Calla Botha and to use him to drive the vehicle to ensure that this job would be done clean and well.

MR WESSELS: And it was not discussed with Verster and Luitingh that you could possibly make use of somebody to help you or to assist you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, it was not discussed and they did not tell me that I should not do it.

MR WESSELS: They did not ask you if you thought that maybe you needed somebody to drive the vehicle?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No sir.

MR WESSELS: You had to go and get your own shotgun, you had to modify it yourself, so that it would suit yourself?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, they knew I could do it, I told them that I had weapons.

MR WESSELS: But if you made use of your own weapon, then there is a possibility that that weapon can be traced back to you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: If it was a licensed weapon, in my name, yes, certainly, but there is no way that I would get hold of a firearm license, I never had one.  When I applied for one and Eugene de Kock went to the Head of the Firearm Department he said that this person is not allowed to have a breadknife in his possession.

MR WESSELS: If you now made use of a weapon that you got hold of yourself, then that weapon could have been identified?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No sir.  I do not think so, I do not agree with you, because if I made use of a weapon that can be traced back to me, but if I make use of a weapon, I take off the serial number which is very simple.

MR WESSELS: But this weapon that you used, you gave the name Buks Benadi, it was a well known weapon, a lot of people knew that you had such a weapon?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, sir, but it was not Buks Benadi who committed the murder.  I had various sawn-off shotguns, Buks Benadi was the most famous.

MR WESSELS: I am just indicating to you how a weapon can be identified and be connected to a specific person and that it can compromise you in a certain way?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, it could.

MR WESSELS: But not you or Joe Verster or Lafras Luitingh ever considered this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, they did not.  Why they did not do it, I do not know.

MR WESSELS: You see Mr Barnard, I find it astonishing that people like Joe Verster, Lafras Luitingh who were fanatical about security, about procedures, will go to you, an untrained, unreliable criminal and orally tell you  "go and kill Dr Webster" and then leave it over to your discretion about how to do it, what weapon you can use, what methods you can use, the escape plan or route that you had to work out yourself and that they were willing to take that risk?  It seems ridiculous to me.

FERDINAND BARNARD: It may seem like that, but that is how it happened.  The thing is that these people knew that I could do it.  I was recruited initially, remember when I testified about the documentation and the qualifications, they did not want to see it, I was qualified for this type of work, and it became very clear at a later stage that I was qualified specifically for these tasks.  It happened in such a way that if I was trained or not trained, we can debate about that, I can tell you now, if you refer to shooting, then Joe Verster can at any time come and we can go to a shooting range and I will show who can shoot and who cannot shoot.

MR WESSELS: I do not doubt your ability to kill other people, but what I am trying to refer to is your training concerning or in the concept of security, to follow procedures, to prevent you being caught and to compromise the government and the organisation and to expose them in the process.
	This is the type of lack of training that I am talking about.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I understand what you are saying and I do concede that I did not follow certain rules and that there were certain breaks, but it does not change the fact that Joe Verster gave me the instruction with Lafras Luitingh and that I followed it and that I committed this murder.

MR WESSELS: The fact that Joe Verster, you said that, the fact that you told him that they can give you the instruction is astonishing Mr Barnard, and it is against all the workings of the CCB, as we have heard from other witnesses, even this single incident, there is a reckless way in which you, an unreliable person, is left with the discretion to act in the way in which you want to.
	You can use a weapon from your own arsenal and you are given free reign in this very sensitive operation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, if there is one operation that is more sensitive, then it would be the Adv Omar case, because of his stature.  Do you know what they did there?  They got a gangster, who is far worse  than what I am, and they made use of him and at the end of the day Slang van Zyl asked him to destroy the poison and he had to also destroy the Makarov with the silencer.

MR WESSELS: But the difference Mr Barnard is that they made use of cut-off points.

FERDINAND BARNARD: What cut-off points?

MR WESSELS: The idea was that he would act as an agent and that it will not be traceable back to the organisation.

FERDINAND BARNARD: But we do  know today that it is not true?

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, will it be convenient to take the adjournment at this stage?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I have been told to inform you that tomorrow morning we will be sitting downstairs where we were at the last time we met here, a few weeks ago, in that room, not in this room.  This room apparently is being used by the owners, so we will meet in the room that opens up to the main street.
	And also unfortunately tomorrow, we will only be able to sit until one o'clock, we will be adjourning at one o'clock tomorrow.

MR WESSELS: Sorry Chairperson, I couldn't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until half past nine tomorrow, in the room downstairs, the room that we were in previously when we will continue with Mr Barnard's evidence and we will adjourn for the day at one o'clock tomorrow, we have to adjourn at 1 o'clock.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS