Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

MR VAN RENSBURG: Surely you could see how he was beaten or not?

MR MASHAMBA: I can see what was happening because I was close by.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So tell us, how did they beat him, how did the crowd beat him and with what?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg is it in dispute?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, I will come to the point in a question or two if you will just allow me this please?
	What I want to know is was he only beaten with sticks until he died or was other instruments used as well?

MR MASHAMBA: He was being beaten by sticks and stones.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay and you see the reason why I'm asking you this is because Mr Jerry Khomogwe who found his father's body the next day says that his head was actually flattened, beaten to a pulp.  What do you say about that?

MR MASHAMBA: No, I can't dispute that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You agree with that?

MR MASHAMBA: I can agree.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Then I have to put it to you that you are seriously trying to downplay the attack on the deceased and the viciousness thereof?

MR MASHAMBA: I have explained that I attacked him inside the house and that when he got out the house there were people waiting for him who started to stone him and beat him by sticks by the people who were outside.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	Sir, can you tell us, Mr is it Mafune?  His three huts were burnt, not so and you were responsible for setting the first house alight?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I'm the person who burnt the first house which was containing the medicine.

MS PATEL: Okay and this was done because Mr Mafune was pointed out by someone as being a wizard, is that correct?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Who pointed him out?

MR MASHAMBA: It's Thomas Mete.

MS PATEL: And what did he say about Mr Mafune?

MR MASHAMBA: He said Mafune was taking people, making them or turning them into zombis.

MS PATEL: And which people would this be?

MR MASHAMBA: One of the persons who was mentioned, Florence Mashia, who was alleged to have been taken by that person.

MS PATEL: And what did Florence do, what type of work did she do.

MR MASHAMBA: She was a churchgoer.

MS PATEL: Okay, was she involved in politics at all?

MR MASHAMBA: No, she was a church churchgoer as such, she never participated in politics.

MS PATEL: Okay and anybody else that you know that he supposedly turned into a zombi?

MR MASHAMBA: Others I heard about them but for now I can't recall the names, I'm unable to recall the names of those people.

MS PATEL: Okay now from what you're able to tell us, it doesn't appear that any of the victims of Mr Mafune were involved in politics?

MR MASHAMBA: Florence Mishia was a churchgoer and she was not participating in politics.

MS PATEL: Okay so the intention even though only his house was set alight, the intention was to kill him, not so, initially?  If he was found he would have been killed?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay now what political purpose would that have served?

MR MASHAMBA: We would have ...(indistinct) the powers of the people who were ruling during those days.

MS PATEL: But you've just told us that none of the victims of, alleged victims of Mr Mafune were involved in politics so I don't understand your response?

MR MASHAMBA: As I have mentioned Florence Mashia only as a person participating in the politics.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry.  The people you have mentioned are people who are victims of Mr Mafune.  Now what I want to find out from you, of the people who were ruling or who were in power in Venda who do you know had received assistance from Mr Mafune either by way of muti or some other powers from Mr Mafune who had been assisted by Mr Mafune?

MR MASHAMBA: Joseph Thithbupfe, most of the things he used to receive from him.

ADV SIGODI: Is Joseph the one who was a member of parliament?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

MS PATEL: How did you know this that Joseph had received assistance from Mr Mafune?

MR MASHAMBA: Because I used to see him seeing that they've got relationship because Joseph used to go to him.

MS PATEL: So what, just because he went to visit him how do you draw the inference that he was being assisted by him to maintain his power?

MR MASHAMBA: It's because even when he go and commit ritual murder he was told that if he wants these things to move smoothly he must do like that.  I think most of things he was receiving it from him.  In Venda it is said a person cannot just go out and commit a ritual murder without knowing the reason for doing that.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry, I don't understand your response, perhaps I should ask the question again.  How do you know that Joseph was receiving assistance from Mafune to maintain his power.  What did you see that led you to this conclusion?

MR MASHAMBA: Because he cannot frequent the place without there is nothing ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: What if they were just friends, can you dispute that, is it a possibility?

MR MASHAMBA: I can dispute that.

MS PATEL: On what basis do you dispute that?

MR MASHAMBA: I can dispute because those people they were not of the same age to a certain extent that they can be friends.

MS PATEL: Did you know Joseph personally?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I know him.

MS PATEL: Did you know him personally?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I know him personally.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Why was he not approached if your dispute was with him and you knew him personally, why was he not approached?

MR MASHAMBA: His person I mentioned that he shot two warnings while we approached him.

MS PATEL: Okay, sorry yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Is he still alive?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes he is still alive.

ADV DE JAGER: Is he involved in politics these days or wouldn't you know?

MR MASHAMBA: I don't know because it's long that I've been in jail.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if you would just grant me a moment?

ADV DE JAGER: The soccer player, Pula who disappeared, was he involved in politics?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes he was involved in politics.

ADV DE JAGER: How was he involved, what was his function in politics?

MR MASHAMBA: He was a secretary who used to write letters to call the meeting.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	Okay, besides Joseph was there anybody else that knew of that Mr Mafune assisted?

MR MASHAMBA: No.

MS PATEL: Okay and you say he assisted them by turning people into zombis or he assisted Joseph by turning people into zombis, is that correct?

MR MASHAMBA: I didn't hear your question properly, could you please repeat?

MS PATEL: Okay, did Mafune assist Joseph by turning people into zombis?

MR MASHAMBA: Mafune was the person who turned people into zombis.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you ever seen this thing, a zombi?

MR MASHAMBA: No I've not yet seen that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how come you can testify that someone changed whatever into a zombi?

MR MASHAMBA: It's because the ...(indistinct) where I'm coming from there is a place which that person was alleged to have put all these things and nobody can gain access to that place, not anybody, people don't reach that place, it's the only person who can gain access to that place.  I mean Mafune is the only person who can gain access to that place.

CHAIRPERSON: But I'm not talking about where he can get access, I'm taking about this thing called zombi.  Do you believe in that it exists?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I believe they are there.

CHAIRPERSON: How long have you had such a belief?

MR MASHAMBA: I think at the age of 15 by then I happened to believe that zombis are there.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are now how old?  You are 36 years old now?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I'm 36.

CHAIRPERSON: So for 20 years you've believed now that there exists zombis?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I still believe.

CHAIRPERSON: And through that 20 years you've never seen anyone, any zombi?

MR MASHAMBA: No I've never met one.