Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-01

ADV VISSER: No Mr Chairman with respect, this touches on the dilemma, what if a man who comes to you and says to you I don't think I did anything wrong and you find at the end of the day that he did nothing wrong, and suddenly Mr Chairman, down the road somebody comes and says, well look we are going to take you to court and the judge there finds that he did in fact commit and offence? Think about it Mr Chairman.  He's gone through the correct procedure, he's applied for his amnesty. On the facts and on your judgement ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: It would depend on a number of things.  It would also depend on what he told the Judge subsequently.

ADV VISSER: Well of course...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Whether he gave him the same facts or whether he spoke with the same conviction, whether he wore on his face the same appearance of credibility, but I don't understand why somebody would say, 'well listen I think I went to a cafe, I took out a loaf of bread to go and feed the comrades who were starving in the bush. Some people think I stole that bread, but as far as I'm concerned I paid for that at the till but there's an argument, but just in case people find out I didn't pay for that loaf of bread, I want amnesty.'  And then he comes in front of us, he says, 'I took a loaf of bread from the shelves, I definitely gave the money to the cashier and the cashier gave me change. I didn't steal that'.

ADV VISSER: Then you say to him, why are you here?

CHAIRPERSON: What amnesty must I give him for on those facts, on that?

ADV VISSER: No but can I give you the facts of our case, Mr Chairman, because that's a clear case, but let me give you the facts in our case...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Now, look you say that's a clear case, but each time when we reach at the end of our case we are clear. When we make a decision we are clear, we are not unclear.

ADV VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'm going to start leading the evidence and you will hear...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You can lead the evidence but at the end of the evidence it's going to be clear to us, whether in our view they've committed an offence or not, we are not going to be unclear about it.

ADV VISSER: But at this stage, if at least I have the assurance that I will be allowed to lead the evidence without you telling them to go away because they didn't commit an offence...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No no no we won't because at this stage we are unclear.

ADV VISSER: Well then we've succeeded in what we wanted to place before you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, the first witness, perhaps I should give an outline Mr Chairman. 
	What we intend to do is first of all to call the officer in command of Far Northern Transvaal Security Branch of the police to give you a general background and also, as far as he personally was aware of the facts as related to him and as far as he was personally involved in the planning and organisation for this operation.  We will then call for you, he is Colonel Willem van der Merwe.  We'll call him first.  
	Then logically we will call thereafter Brigadier Nick Coetsee who was second in command, his evidence might not be that long but to fill in that gap.
	Then Mr Chairman what we will do is to call Mr Koos van den Berg who was the link from the original contact, or the original information and how that information was fed through, and then you will remind yourselves that in the application forms what was done, was that only in Mr Erwee's application were the facts set out and all the others just referred to, to him.
	What we'll then do is to call Erwee and then one can go into detail about the incident, I would presume.  Thereafter Mr Chairman we will have to call Mr Fuchs for whatever the relevance may be of the evidence of Sehlwana, as far as he's concerned.  And we will call Mr Swart because you will remind yourself that he has applied for amnesty in regard to defeating the ends of justice relating to the inquest.  Also Erwee and Swart that have applied for amnesty in this regard.
	And then Mr Chairman, as I said before, we will present the other witnesses to you but we don't believe that they would be able to take the matter any further.
	I would then ask for Colonel van der Merwe to take the stand Mr Chairman, he prefers to give his evidence in Afrikaans.
	Your full names please?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Willem Johannes van der Merwe.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: (sworn states)

ADV VISSER: Colonel van der Merwe, we will refer to you as Mr van der Merwe, I hope you don't mind.  Do you have in front of you a copy of your amnesty application?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: And you are requesting to refer to that, if just necessary to just refresh your memory.  Is that correct?
	Would you please tell the Committee, during 1986, were you a member of the South African Police?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes I was.

ADV VISSER: And at this stage are you still an active member of the police?

ADV VISSER: Do you mean at the moment?  No, I have retired on pension from the Force.

ADV DE JAGER: Does his application appear on page 41?

ADV VISSER: I apologise Chairperson, I should have referred you to that, that is correct, I apologise, I failed to mention that.
	In your application Mr van der Merwe you referred on page 42 in paragraph 9.A(4), we don't have to look it up, you referred to Mr Andries Gerhardus Erwee's statement in which the facts are set out in respect of this incident and with which you associate yourself as far as your knowledged goes.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: Mr Erwee will also testify in this regard.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Would you at the outside sketch a bit of background of yourself as far as your career in the Police is concerned, your progress, the highlights of your career until your retirement please.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairperson, I joined the Force in 1953 on the 10th of August.  I was stationed in Vereeniging for 20 years.  I was involved in the Detective Branch and at a later stage in 1961 in the Security Branch in Vereeniging. In 1979 about June-July I went to South West Africa which is now Namibia where I was stationed in Rundu. I stayed there for five and a half years and in the start of '79 I went to Pietersburg, transferred to Pietersburg as a major.
	I stayed in Pietersburg in the Security Branch and at the end of '86 I retired on pension from the Force.

ADV VISSER: Now in the Security Branch you progressed to the head of the Security Branch here in the Far Northern Region, is that correct.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: That is correct, I was promoted to a full Colonel during my service.

ADV VISSER: If we could then focus on 1986, you were head  or the commander in chief, who was second in command?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Brigadier Nick Coetsee.

ADV VISSER: Where were you stationed?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: In Pietersburg itself.

ADV VISSER: What was the size of your department in the Security Branch?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Mr Chairperson that is a difficult question.  It varied.  If I may just sketch it briefly.  The Security Branch Far North consisted of the district of headquarters and then various Branch offices which were strategically located throughout the whole area.  I don't know whether it's necessary to elaborate.

ADV VISSER: Yes I think mention them. I think just mention them all so that we can get some kind of idea of the area.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: The border of the particular area went form Northam in the west along the Limpopo including the interior areas around the bend of the Limpopo river to where the Olifants River crosses the game reserve and then to Pienaars River.

ADV VISSER: Could you please give us a specific place?