Human Rights Violation Hearings — Nelspruit — 1996-09-04

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: As I have explained to you, as one grows up, especiall during those times, they were not aware of everything.  As I am talking today I went to my sister to inform her about the Truth Commission.  She said to me she is afraid, she cannot come in front of the whites. I told her that I am a man, I will come and make a follo-up, I want to question where my father's remains are.  I am here but with another member of the family, who also can testify on that.

MR LEWIN: That is not a problem for us, and as you can see we are not all whites, that are with you here.  But what I would like to know, is how big your family at the time was, in 1963, your father, your mother and how many brothers and sisters you had.

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: We were a big family, we were six from my mother. The seventh child ran away during that time.  We are six in the family.

MR LEWIN: Could you tell us something about the actual community because you mentioned that you were all together, that this commissioner came and in and then said that you had to move.  How many families were affected by that move or was it just your family alone?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: I can say many families were affected, because during that time people were not educated and the
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blacks were very, very much afraid of the whites.   Even now, when we discuss this issue, with our family, they are afraid to talk in front of the whites.  They say they cannot express their feelings in front of the whites.  From there I have decided to take a risk of coming here, because I want the investigation about my parents.

MR LEWIN: Well, we are very pleased that you did and we hope that you now feel more relaxed here.  But we need some details. You mention in your original statement that amongst the Ngwenyama family, which involved five people in graves, there was a list of 48 people affected. Would that give some idea of the size, the numbers of people who were moved?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Do you mean from the Ngwenyama family?

MR LEWIN: No, I mean from the community.  How many houses were affected all together or do you know from your family what they told you?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: I can.  Those were affected were five families.

MR LEWIN: And was the place from where you moved, was it a village or a part of a township or what was it?  Could you explain it to us, please?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Where we were transferred to or - it is now a location.

MR LEWIN: And what was it then, why were you moved, that's what I am trying to find out, why were you actually moved from that place.

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: We were removed because they said they are starting with a municipality system, where under the traditional leaders we are again falling under the municipality system, because we are traditional people.  We were therefore forced to move from that area.
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MR LEWIN: Okay, that is what I was asking. And I just want to confirm that when you were told to move, there was no consulation with you as a family or as a group of families. Is that correct

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Yes, it is like that.  They never consulted us.

MR LEWIN: Had they consulted you, what do you think you would have done at that stage?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: We could not agree to move, because we had many properties, belonging to us, because we were therefore forced to take a very small area that would not accommodate the animals we had like cattle, where the indigenous people of that area were not going to agree, we are farmers, we were not even working.

MR LEWIN: And the place to which you were moved, Tugutswa, where were you moved, what was that like?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: They are just small areas compared to others, because you can only farm within the area they have given you.  It is normal like that one, the first one.

MR LEWIN: So there are no facilities?  Water and those sort of facilities, roads; were there any facilities at the new place, Tugutswa?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Now we do have roads, there are passages, but the stands are very small.  Where we are from there were no roads and it was open.

MR LEWIN: And in the new place, do you now own that land?  Do you have permanent tenancy at that land?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: We are not happy about this new area.

MR LEWIN: But do you own the land, do you own your houses?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Ja, it is ours, we are owning the land and houses.
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MR LEWIN: How far is it or was it from Ngundini to Tugustswa, how far were you moved?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Let me just count, one, two, three, about five kilometres.

MR LEWIN: Now let's get on, because there are two problems that I see here. On the one hand is the question of your being moved.  The second one which involves not only your family but your ancestors, so it is a very delicate question, is the question of the graves.  I would like to confirm that you were not consulted and that you don't actually now know where the contents of the original graves were moved to. Is that the case?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Yes, that is.

MR LEWIN: Will you be able to give us some documents which we can follow up to try and trace the original contents?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Do you mean the documents that they used during the time, that time when the grave was exhumed?

MR LEWIN: Yes, I do.

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Yes, I can give it to you.

MR LEWIN: Because obviously that is another question that we would like to look into.  Mr Ngwenyama, I don't myself have further questions.  I would like to thank you very much for that but I will pass you back to the Chairperson because I am sure other Commissioners might have more questions.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngwenyama, I am going to ask the other Commissioners if they have any questions to ask you.  Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Ngwenyama can you tell me how old are you now?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Yes, I can. I am 44 years now.
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MR MALAN: If I understood you correctly, your father died before the removal.

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Yes, he died like that.  Sorry, my mother died before we removed, my father has just died now.  Yes, my father died later.

MR MALAN: Who was the chief in the area at the time, who did you owe allegiance to?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: Chief Mboyane.

MR MALAN: Is he still around, Chief Mboyane?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: He is still alive.

MR MALAN: Have you taken up the question of the remains of your mother and the other people with the Chief?  Have you spoken to him, have you asked him?

MOTSO ROMBENA NGWENYAMA: I never asked the Chief.

MR MALAN: I really don't have any questions, except I would recommend that you also speak to the Chief, who may have some information and that you also speak with your local member of Parliament, see if he can find anything, he or she can find anything in the archives.  The difficulty really, and I think we need to tell you at this stage, is that we will not be making any decision now, it is not certainly clear to me that this falls within the ambit of the Act that the Truth Commission is to investigate. I am not sure that we can help you to the full.  Of course, we are available to help where we can.  But I would suggest and sincerely suggest, that you also try and speak to Chief Mboyane and that you speak to your local member of Parliament at the same time.  But thank you for coming to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.