Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, he did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say your family knew, who are you referring to?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: My parents as well as my siblings.

CHAIRPERSON: Were your parents ANC members?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: They were IFP members.

CHAIRPERSON: Were your brothers and sisters ANC members?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: My sisters became ANC members and they also had to leave the area.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  I won't take this issue any further, I'll argue it during my argument.

CHAIRPERSON: I think sufficient ground has been laid for any kind of argument you may wish to present.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr Zulu I was still directing you to paragraph 6.6 of your affidavit at page 3 where you say,
"Numerous members of my organisation and family were killed as a result of the attacks and counter attacks between our organisation and the IFP."
My first question to you is, which members of your family are you referring to, in terms of the political organisations?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I am not referring to the immediate family that you reside or stay with in one house.  There are other members of the extended family, who may be residing at another place.

MS THABETHE: So which members of your family were you referring to?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was Geoffrey Zulu.

MS THABETHE: Who else?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: And Tommy.

MS THABETHE: What's his surname?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Zulu.

MS THABETHE: Who else?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: And Sepo.

MS THABETHE: Is that all?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: And Bongane.

CHAIRPERSON: From - which area did they reside?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: At Maqonqo.

CHAIRPERSON: And when were they killed?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Around 1988, 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be prior to the fleeing of ANC members in Maqonqo to Edendale?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

MR MALAN: Were they, these members of your family, were they ANC or Inkatha supporters?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: They were ANC supporters.

MR MALAN: And the relation of these people, how were they family to you?  Geoffrey?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: He was a relative in the sense that they were related to my father, he may have been a brother to my father.

MR MALAN: And Tommy?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: They were all related in the same way to me.

MR MALAN: These are not all brothers of your father, are they all your uncles, is that what you're telling us now?  How were they family?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Their fathers were my father's brothers.

MR MALAN: So they were cousins.  Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Where about in Maqonqo were they staying?  In which village?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: At eZinembini.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it really matter, Ms Thabethe, because this happened prior to the departure of ANC members in Maqonqo to Edendale?  So the killing happened post 1988, I mean prior to 1988 and we already have evidence that in 1988 the ANC members left Maqonqo during the height of the political violence to Edendale.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, it's important in the sense that my instructions are that this was an IFP area and any ANC people maybe might have fled but they were not known in the area and what he is saying is that these people were killed inside the area during the counter attacks between IFP and ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought, when I was questioning him he indicated, his evidence suggested that the killing took place prior to the departure of ANC members from Maqonqo to Edendale and that the people returned around 1990 to Maqonqo.  Maybe you should find out if any persons were killed, any members of his family were killed after the return of these ANC members from Edendale to Maqonqo.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, I don't know whether I am understanding the applicant correctly.  He is saying these people were killed in 1989, right?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he later corrected himself and he said they were killed before the departure of ANC members from Maqonqo to Edendale, which happened in 1988.

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless you want to canvass that issue so that you get clarity.

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.  My difficulty still is that according to my instructions this was entirely an IFP area and there were no counter attacks between ANC and IFP.
...(indistinct - mike not on)

MS THABETHE: Yes.
...(indistinct - mike not on)

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed then Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS THABETHE: Mr Zulu, when did the conflict or the counter attacks, as you put it, between IFP and the ANC at Maqonqo begin?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: In 1987.

MS THABETHE: I'll have to take instructions with regard to that Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  May I just get clarity on this particular aspect of your evidence?  Is it your evidence that by 1988 the conflict at Maqonqo had reached such levels that the ANC members were forced to leave the area and stay in Edendale?  Is that your evidence?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that the members of your family that you've alluded to in terms of paragraph 6.6 were killed in 1988, that is prior to the departure of the ANC members from Maqonqo to Edendale?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, my family members were killed in 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and that would not be 1989, because you say that happened before ANC members left Maqonqo to stay in Edendale.  We are waiting for your response, Mr Zulu.  In your earlier evidence you had indicated that members of your family were killed either in 1988 or 1989.  Do you recall saying that?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I questioned you whether they were killed prior to the departure of ANC members from Maqonqo to Edendale and you said yes.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it is your evidence that ANC members were forced to leave the area of Maqonqo for Edendale in 1988.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, that's what I've said.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you are saying that and you agree with that aspect of your evidence, then there is a conflict between what you are saying with what you are again saying about the time period because if these members were killed prior to the departure of ANC member from Maqonqo to Edendale, which we know to have happened in 1988, they therefore couldn't have been killed in 1989.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you therefore agree that you have made a mistake that these members were killed in 1988, because you say they were killed prior to the departure of people from Maqonqo?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I do agree.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair I'll proceed to other aspects and then I'll get the instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Whilst we are on that point, Ms Thabethe, maybe this is the convenient time to adjourn for lunch and reconvene at 1.30.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed with your cross-examination.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

MS THABETHE: (cont.)
	Madam Chair, I would like to indicate that I did receive instructions with regard to what was happening at that time from 1989, 1988 onwards but by the time I consulted, Mr Zulu the father of the applicant, was not longer at the venue, so I couldn't consult with regard to the people who were killed from the family.  But I have told somebody that I would like to consult with him with regard to that, but I would like to proceed on other aspects.

CHAIRPERSON: You will just give us an indication when it is an appropriate time for you to take those instructions.

MS THABETHE: I will do that, Madam Chair.
Mr Zulu, you have indicated in your evidence that your intention when you committed the act on the 2nd of March 1993 ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt?  Is there something wrong with the machine?  Is it deliberate that the Zulu translation must come out?