Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Where, in what area did you go and arrest him, what is the name of the place?

MR MORAKILE: Bochabela, B-o-c-h-a-b-e-l-a.

MR VISSER: It is not the same as Botshabelo, is that right, there's a difference.

MR MORAKILE: They are not the same, you are right.

MR VISSER: You drove down the street and then what did you see?

MR MORAKILE: When we arrived at Botchabela, there was a group of people there, one of the ran away.  That is when we knew that it was Oupa Makubalo. We chased him a way, he jumped over the fences, we jumped the fences too until Sergeant Mamome caught him.

MR VISSER: Mamome, M-a-m-o-m-e.  The interpreter said you chased him away, did you chase after him, after Oupa Makubalo.

MR MORAKILE: That is correct, we were chasing after him.

MR VISSER: Did you have your firearm with you?

MR MORAKILE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you draw your firearm?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all, I did not.

MR VISSER: And then consequently did you, discharge your firearm at all on that day?

MR MORAKILE: My firearm was never discharged.

MR VISSER: Did you see anybody else shooting that day, of the security branch people, or anybody else?

MR MORAKILE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Who did you see who fired his firearm?

MR MORAKILE: It's Motsamai.

MR VISSER: Now when did this happen, Mr Morakile?

MR MORAKILE: When we got out of the Kombi, Boyzi got out of the car ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Just stop for a moment please.  Don't refer to Boyzi, let's stick to Motsamai.

MR MORAKILE: That's correct, thank you.  Motsamai got out of the Kombi because he knew, he's the person who knew Oupa Makubalo.  When Oupa started running, he shot after Oupa, then he took the other direction and then we got out of the car and chasde after him.

MR VISSER: Can you remember who many times he shot after Oupa, as you put it?

MR MORAKILE: I do not remember, but it was several times, it might be three if not four.

MR VISSER: Were you in the vicinity when Sergeant Mamome arrested Oupa Makubalo?

MR MORAKILE: No, I was at the back, I was not any close to him.

MR VISSER: Did you see anybody assault Mr Makubalo on that day?

MR MORAKILE: I didn't see anyone Sir.

MR VISSER: That's the evidence in chief Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: No questions for the witness, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: Mr Morakile, are you sure that in June of 86 was the first time you reported for duty at the security police?

MR MORAKILE: That is true Sir.

MR STANDER: Were you involved at an earlier stage here at the security police in Bloemfontein?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all.

MR STANDER: Why I'm putting this question to you is because I was instructed that you were the person who interrogated Mildred Lekethlani as being one of the group of 19 who was arrested at Ladybrand.

MR MORAKILE: Which date are you referring to?

MR STANDER: 6th of April 86.

MR MORAKILE: I arrived at the security branch on the 21st of June 1986.

MR STANDER: She can also recall it specifically as as a fact that you were the person who hit her with your open hand.  What do you have to say in this regard?

MR MORAKILE: I would not have slapped him in my absence.

MR STANDER: I want to put it to you that you are trying to keep yourself away from the scene, while at that stage you were involved with the security police to some or other extent here in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you came to Bloemfontein and got involved with the security police you were ...[inaudible]?

MR MORAKILE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you keep a pocket book in those days?

MR MORAKILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when it's full you hand it in?

MR MORAKILE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That should be available should'nt it, from Wepener, Wepener Police Station?

MR STANDER: I believe so Mr Chairman.

MR MORAKILE: I can even help.  My record, the SAP record in 1986 will show with whom did I leave Wepener to come to Bloemfontein.

MR STANDER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	In the light of the arres of Oupa Makubalo, did you see whether Sergeant Mamome fired any shots?

MR MORAKILE: I did not see him at all.

MR STANDER: Did he get out of the vehicle, I'm now referring to Mamome?

MR MORAKILE: Yes, he got out of the car.

MR STANDER: Did you watch him the whole time, from the time he got out of the car until he returned with Oupa Makubalo?

CHAIRPERSON: He just told you he didn't see him at all, hasn't he?

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible] fired the shots.

MR MORAKILE: Can you repeat your question, Sir.

MR STANDER: From the moment he climbed out of the car until he returned with Makubalo, did you see anything?  Did you see him at all, I'm now referring to Mamome?

MR MORAKILE: I did not see him when he arrested him, when he caught him. I just saw them coming, approaching.

MR STANDER: Is there a possibility that he could have fired shots which you did not see?

MR MORAKILE: I don't believe he shot.  At that time we went out of the car, chased after him, he did not shoot. But when we were obscured I didn't see them.

MR STANDER: Did any of your other people fire any shots?

MR MORAKILE: I did not see anyone shooting except Motsamai.

MR STANDER: Do you know what I find very strange, I'm going to give you an opportunity to reply to this. Motsamai came to apply for amnesty and he's the only one who shot, who fired any shots.  The others did not fire any shots while they were on the same course to arrest Makubalo.  I do not understand that, please give us some clarity.

MR MORAKILE: Let me explain this to you.  This person was deeply hurt because his informer was killed, he might have done that.  He was supposed to do that because the person he was working with was killed.

MR STANDER: Did you see Mr Makubalo when he was brought back?

MR MORAKILE: Yes, we came with him in the Kombi.

MR STANDER: Did you notice any blood on his face?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all, I did not see blood at all.

MR STANDER: Because I was instructed to put it to you that his front tooth had either been hit out or kicked out on that occasion.

MR MORAKILE: I did not see that, truly.

MR STANDER: If one's tooth has been hit out or kicked out the normally it bleeds.

MR MORAKILE: Yes.

MR STANDER: And can you give us a reason, if this is so, why there was no blood?

MR MORAKILE: I did not see.

MR STANDER: Did you look at him at all?

MR MORAKILE: Yes, we left Bochabela with him, we came to Fountain.  He was there, I saw him.

MR STANDER: You could see his face very clearly?

MR MORAKILE: I was looking at him just as I am looking at you now.

MR STANDER: And that is why I find it strange that you saw no marks or injuries or blood on his face.

MR MORAKILE: He did not have blood on his face.

MR STANDER: I put it to you that the only reason why you are denying this is because you are trying to protect people whom you know have acted wrongly.

MR MORAKILE: That is not correct.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: As the chair pleases.
	Now, Mr Morakile, you are also known as Molefe, isn't it?

MR MORAKILE: Yes, it appeared like that.

ADV MEMANI: People who referred to you as Molefe said they were assaulted on the 6th of April 1986.

MR VISSER: Can that question be repeated please Mr Chairman, I didn't hear it.

ADV MEMANI: The people who referred to you as Molefe said that they were assaulted on the 6th of April 1986.

MR MORAKILE: I already said that I would not assault a person once I was absent.  On the 6th of April 1986, I was not in Bloemfontein but in Wepener. I already told you that I came to Bloemfontein on the 21st of June 1986.

ADV MEMANI: You see my instructions are that there was a person called Kaya and Mopena at security branch who worked there without been registered as members of the security branch.

MR MORAKILE: I know the two of them, they were working there.