Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-11

GARY JOHN KRUSER: When on the parapet, as I explained earlier, I saw this one march moving up Plein Street where I saw the concealed firearm and various other dangerous weapons amongst the crowd.  On an earlier occasion with one of the other marches I also used the radio which was available on top at that moment.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you say anything to the people on the parapet?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think the general instruction was for people to act with restraint at all times.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know Lieutenant-General Calitz and Brigadier Gouws?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I knew them, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did they come to Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, they came to Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you remember the time more or less?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think it was roundabout elevenish if I get my facts right.

GEORGE BIZOS: You give an approximation?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you meet them or did someone else meet them?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I was present when they arrived, but they were met by Mr Maduna and the late Commissioner Gadu, who then took them upstairs into Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: At the time that they arrived there were there any policemen present?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's more or less the same time I think when - or just roundabout then when the five members of the police and the SANDF arrived.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what did you see after they were taken up into the Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: While I was in the front of Shell House, Eddie Khumalo and Mondle Zuma came running towards me.  They seemed quite in a panic and quite stressed and informed me that they'd been shot at in the back of De Villiers Street by oncoming marchers.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where were you when you were told that?  Just identify it so that members of the Committee can ...[intervention]

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I was just in front of Shell House, in the front part of Shell House, outside the doors of Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you move away from there?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: When they came to me and informed me what was happening, because they were part of the people I sent out to do reconnaissance around Shell House, I then took a decision because at the door one of our security members was armed with an AK47.  I gave instructions for the AK47 to move with us to the corner.  Myself, Eddie Khumalo and Mondle Zuma proceeded to the south-western corner of Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: That's on the corner of King George and Plein Streets.  To whom did you say you gave the AK47?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Eddie Khumalo took the AK47.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did any police officer come onto the scene?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: While we were there two police officers did come to the scene.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you name them?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: One by the name of Van Reenen.  I then said to them that they should go down to the crowd and try to divert the crowd away from Shell House because it looks quite dangerous.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which crowd were you referring to?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There was a crowd on the corner of King George, coming down King George Street towards the corner of King George and De Villiers streets, and also from what I could see, it seemed like there was a crowd coming down De Villiers Street from west to east, so there were two crowds merging on the corner of ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: The ones coming from west to east, would this have been on the way to the Library Gardens where the meeting was supposed to be held, or away from it?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Contrary, to the opposite direction of Library Gardens.

GEORGE BIZOS: You asked them to divert the marchers and what did they do?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They ran down to the crowd and they then came running back again telling us to go inside Shell House.  I indicated to them that - they told us that the situation was dangerous and then they ran away.  Before that I said to them, this was all in a great hurry, that we could not leave our last line of defence, that we had to keep it in place.

GEORGE BIZOS: Could you give us some idea of the size of this crowd that congregated in the intersection of King George and De Villiers Streets?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm not good with estimates, but I assume about 1000 people.

GEORGE BIZOS: And how did they appear to you, were they armed?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: This crowd was very different from all the other crowds which came through.

GEORGE BIZOS: What were the differences?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The other crowds moved almost consistently in a slow type of march or toyi-toyi as they would call it.  This crowd was, as though they were humming up in type of dance at the corner, standing still but they were not moving, they seemed to be constant on the corner, that is my recollection.
	I was also informed by Mondle Zuma who was standing next to me at that stage, that this is the type of war-dance they do before they go, because he knows about these things, I don't.  There was also a man standing in front of the crowd, a white man with longish hair with his arms stretched out.

GEORGE BIZOS: Stretched out, looking away from the crowd or looking at the crowd?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: ...[inaudible]  He was standing with his arms stretched out like this, his back to me, facing the crowd.

GEORGE BIZOS: You didn't know this man?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I have no idea who he is.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what happened to him?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't know, he just disappeared into the crowd.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you told us that Van Reenen told you that the situation was dangerous, what did he and the other policemen do?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They ran away.

GEORGE BIZOS: In what direction?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Behind, to the back of me, behind us.  We were standing on the corner, here into Plein Street I would assume.  I didn't see where they went, they just ran past us.

GEORGE BIZOS: They didn't run towards the crowd?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: No, they ran to the opposite direction.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what did the crowd do when this white man disappeared into it?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Maybe I should just explain what happened.  After the policeman came back to us we were placed in the position, myself, Veejay Ramie next to me, Eddie Khumalo was on the ground with the AK and Mondle Zuma also quite close to me.  The impression I got, the crowd started moving forward, and that's when this man disappeared into the crowd.
	At the same time I heard automatic gunfire emanating from the crowd.  I also heard a bullet hit the window to the right of me, into Shell House, one of the shops at Shell House.  I then gave the order for Veejay Rama to - I just gave an order, can you shoot the warning shots.  I saw Veejay Rama shooting warning shots into the parapet at an angle.  This seemed to have the opposite effect on the crowd, because they seemed to search it for it much faster and also the gunfire seemed to be intensified.  I then gave the order to repel the marchers.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, you now know that the bullet that struck the window of Shell House was apparently a ricochet from the AK47 fired by Mr Khumalo.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's the ballistics evidence and I accept that but in my mind I find it very difficult because I still, if I relive the events, that's what I see and what I understand happened but I accept the ballistics evidence put forward.

GEORGE BIZOS: The ballistics evidence also show that the 10 rounds that landed on the underside of the parapet also were fired from the position in which Mr Khumalo was.  Do you accept that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I accept it.  Without ballistic evidence I would not, but I can see that experts say it happened.

GEORGE BIZOS: At the time that you heard the shots, did you believe that you - well, where did you believe that the shots came from?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My impression was that heavy gunfire was emanating from the crowd in our direction.