Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-02

CHAIRPERSON: Today is October the 2nd, we are continuing with 
the same set of applications.  Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, my learned friend, Mr Cornelius will 
proceed with the evidence of Mr Vermeulen.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (Duly sworn, states).

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr 
Chairperson.  Mr Vermeulen, you have completed an application in 
terms of Act 34/1995 and it was handed on the 13th of December 
and that is the application mentioned on page 160, 166 of the 
application?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: As appears from page 169 you gave your full co-
operation to the Investigation Committee of the Truth and 
Reconciliation Commission, the investigating team of the Attorney-
General's office and you also agreed to testify against your former 
colleagues in the Motherwell Supreme Court trial. Is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And as a result of your evidence inter alia a 
conviction followed.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you received an indemnity in terms of 
Section 204 of the Criminal Procedure Act?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Was an opportunity given to you to make further 
representations to the honourable presiding Judge to be able to 
qualify for a Section 204 indemnity?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you haven't yet received judgment on that?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You have read or attached the documents and 
records of the Supreme Court trial?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: The Chairperson pointed out that we should get 
to the matter in hand very quickly. You were in the service of 
Section C(1) of the South African Police special unit there?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And you served there from 1985 to 1992? Is that 
correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that in December of 1989 
you were summoned to the offices of Mr Eugene de Kock, who was 
the commanding officer of the C Unit, correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And yourself, Lionel Snyman, Deon Nieuwoudt 
and Martiens Ras were present?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What instructions or orders did you receive 
there?

MR VERMEULEN: The order which we received was to travel to 
Port Elizabeth, to carry out a task.

MR CORNELIUS: What was this task?

MR VERMEULEN: The task was to in respect of members who 
had defected and given information to the ANC/SACP, to eliminate 
such members.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard this order as a justified one?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard it as being in the national 
interest?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that you left there with two 
Vlakplaas vehicles and you drove to Port Elizabeth. You and Lionel 
Snyman in the one car and Deon Nieuwoudt and Martiens Ras as 
well.

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened when you arrived in Port 
Elizabeth?  Did you go to a so-called safe house and you stayed 
there overnight. Is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: The next morning you and Deon Nieuwoudt and 
the rest of your comrades travelled to a remote area outside of Port 
Elizabeth. Is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Would you be able to identify that area again?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Why not?

MR VERMEULEN: Because I am not familiar with Port Elizabeth 
and it would be difficult for me to point that area out again.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, and it has also appeared from evidence 
before the Commission that you were in fact misled in that all kinds 
of circuitous routes were taken with you to mislead you.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And that is also the reason why you gave weak 
testimony in the court, you were in fact misled.

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: When you arrived in the area, as appears from 
previous applications, there was a white Jetta car which had been 
prepared.

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What had been done to this car?

MR VERMEULEN: Explosives had been placed in the boot and 
also in the passenger cabin.

MR CORNELIUS: What type of explosives?

MR VERMEULEN: Use was made of commercial explosive and 
also military type of explosive.

MR CORNELIUS: And the detonator mechanism, what was that?

MR VERMEULEN: The detonator was a radio-controlled 
detonator.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you assist in the placing of the explosives?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Were you present, should you be needed?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Who actually placed the explosives in the car?

MR VERMEULEN: It was Mr Waal du Toit and Mr Kobus Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: After the vehicle had been prepared, what 
happened then?

MR VERMEULEN: We then moved back to Port Elizabeth.

MR CORNELIUS: That evening, along with Snyman and Ras you 
returned to the so-called Motherwell crossing, is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: After that, where did you go?

MR VERMEULEN: From the crossing, Motherwell crossing, we 
went to the place where the Vlakplaas vehicle had been secreted and 
I stayed behind there.

MR CORNELIUS: Why did you stand behind?

MR VERMEULEN: I stayed behind to look after the vehicles.

MR CORNELIUS: How far was this point from the Motherwell 
crossing where the bomb actually exploded?

MR VERMEULEN: About two to three kilometres.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Committee what happened later?

MR VERMEULEN: I waited at the vehicles and about 45 minutes 
later Mr Ras and Mr Snyman arrived there, and told me that the 
operation had been successful. We then got back into our vehicles 
and drove to Pretoria.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you hear the sound of an explosion or see a 
flash?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Why not?

MR VERMEULEN: Was too far away from that area.

MR CORNELIUS: When you returned to Pretoria, did you report to 
Mr De Kock, Lieut De Kock?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened, Mr Vermeulen if 
you had not carried out Eugene de Kock's orders?

MR VERMEULEN: If I hadn't carried out the orders, there is a 
good chance that I would have lost my job and that perhaps I could 
have been eliminated.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you fear that?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: As the honourable Judge said you found yourself 
in a Catch 22 situation?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Your loyalty would have been seriously 
questioned if you didn't carry out the orders?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And since you possessed extremely sensitive 
information you would have posed a serious threat?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You had been involved in many operations 
before the Motherwell operation of '89?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you also operate on the need to know 
strategy?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You were not aware of the fact that there was a 
ZN detonator, Soviet-origin detonator left on the scene?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: And at that stage you were not aware of the fact 
that you were deliberately misled by other colleagues, so that you 
couldn't make this identification?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Vermeulen, did you believe that you were 
acting in the national interest?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: These acts which you committed, they are 
obviously illegal acts, what was your political objective?

MR VERMEULEN: My political objective was that the members 
who had given information to the ANC/SACP, they at that stage, 
they were my enemy.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard these members as supporters of 
the ANC?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Or associates of the ANC?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times act within the normal course 
and scope of your duties?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you feel that your execution of your duties 
had the approval of your superiors?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.