Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

ADV SANDI: I think that was the evidence of Mr Dolo yesterday that you were wearing a hat, a white hat, and you were using that hat to indicate whenever a vehicle driven by whites comes.  Was that not correct?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I was not wearing a white hat.  Maybe he saw the hat I was wearing as white, but I would like to say that it was white, but it was so dirty that it wasn't white anymore.  Maybe he talked about its original colour, but by that time it was so dirty it was not as white as it were before.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Makoala.  That's all I've got to ask.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR

MR PRIOR: I just wanted to ask one thing, the, who was at your base during this time?  I want to just try and clarify this.  Which people were at your base at Jozanna's Hoek at this time?  Just give us a list.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: During which time are you talking about?

MR PRIOR: The time you were carrying out all these attacks?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Do you want me to tell you their names of, or their number

MR PRIOR: Let's start of, you were there, right?  You were there, right?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Roger was there, right?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Now, Kenny was there.  Which Kenny are we talking about?  Were there two Kennys there?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it was Kenny Modiboloa and Kenny, which Phila Dolo used to call him Kenny also.

MR PRIOR: And then there was Scorpion.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, Scorpion was also there.

MR PRIOR: And then there was Oupa.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Oupa was also present.

MR PRIOR: What was Oupa's second name?  It looks like "K" something, but I can't read it on your annexure.  It's chopped off on my photocopy.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: We called him Temba.  The other names he used, I don't know of.

CHAIRPERSON: You wrote down on your application form a name beginning "Kho" I think.  How did it continue?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The name is Khotle.  Oupa  Khotle.

MR PRIOR: Khotle?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Then we had Temba Ngese.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes Temba was also present.

MR PRIOR: Is he different now to this Temba that you referred to as Oupa Khotle?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes it is another Temba.

MR PRIOR: And then you had Max.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Have I left anyone else out that was also there?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, there are some names you've left behind. It is Comrade Jabo, whom we used to call Zam-Zam and the other Jabo whom I knew as Jabo and Ben.  From there the other Comrades would come and go, they wouldn't stay long at the base.  I didn't really know their names.

MR PRIOR: Are these people you've mentioned the only people involved ...(intervention)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: There was also Phila, but not Phila Dolo, Phila Pawa.  We used to call Phila Pawa Uys.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Who are you talking about?

MR PRIOR: Phila Pawa.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What do you mean when you say he left earlier.

MR PRIOR: He was replaced by Phila Dodd, Dolo, sorry.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No he never left.  He was still around, but Comrade Phila Dolo was also one of the Commanders, that is the Regional Commander.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) Phila Dolo yesterday, was that he returned to Umtata.  You were listening here.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, he returned to Umtata.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying not immediately?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I don't know when he returned to Umtata.  What happened is that after the attack we didn't sleep at the house or at the base.  That is all of us didn't sleep at the base.  So I don't know whether he returned immediately after the attack to Umtata or a few days thereafter.

MR PRIOR: You referring to this attack we're dealing with today?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying that he was present from the time Phila Dolo took over till this attack?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, he was still around.

MR PRIOR: What attacks did he take part in?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I don't know which attacks he took part in.  All I know is that he was my Commander, one of the Regional Commanders before Comrade Phila Dolo arrived.

MR PRIOR: Well did you go on any operations with him?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: With whom?

MR PRIOR: We're talking about Phila Pawa now.   Did you go on any operations with him?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, Phila Pawa never accompanied me to any operations.

MR PRIOR: So who commanded you before Phila Dolo arrived?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It was Phila Pawa.

MR PRIOR: So did you not go on any operations before Phila Dolo arrived?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, it never happened.

MR PRIOR: Now, you've mentioned two Jabos here.  Which of these other Comrades of yours used the name Jabo?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: There were so many I can't tell the Committee who they are.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) the name Jabo.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I don't know whether in the earlier he was deployed in he used the name Jabo or not.

MR PRIOR: Did he use the name Jabo at any time during an operation with you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No I don't remember him using the name Jabo in the operations I was involved in with him.

MR PRIOR: In any operation did Kenny ever use the name Jabo, that is Kenny Modiboloa?  Just a yes or a no.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Phila Dolo, who was also known as Kenny, did he ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Scorpion ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Oupa Khotle ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Temba ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No he hadn't.

MR PRIOR: Did Max ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Ben ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: And we won't worry about Phila because you never went on an operation with him, as you have told us.  Correct?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Even some of the Comrades you asked whether they used the name Jabo, I've never been out on an operation with them, like Comrade Ben.  I never went out on an operation with him.

MR PRIOR: You see, this annexure of yours only deals with operations, is that right?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question.

MR PRIOR: This annexure of yours at page 11 and 12 only deals with operations.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR PRIOR: Only two people that you were involved in operations with used the name Jabo.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I explained earlier is that the Jabo I was with during operations is the one who is called Dr Zam-Zam.  The other Jabo I have never been with him on operations or during operations.

MR PRIOR: So there was only one Jabo you ever went on operations with, correct?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes it is correct.  It is Dr Zam-Zam.

MR PRIOR: How could you confuse that Jabo with all the thousands of other Jabos you thought you were referring to?  You only went on operations with one.  Please explain this to us.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I said is that by the time I made my amnesty application I was so confused, there was no-one helping or guiding me and by then I thought of many names.  The name that was nearer to my mind was Jabo because Jabo was my friend.  We were very close.  That is why on many occasions his name come up, came up my mind.

MR PRIOR: Is that Zam-Zam?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr, through you Mr Chairperson, I've got a few questions to ask you.  When Phila Dolo came, what role did the other Phila play in your unit?