Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR TIPP: And was there at any time throughout your presence as a policeman there, any discussion as to what the police were to do in the event of a confrontation-situation arising?

MR VAN GREUNEN: None at all.

MR TIPP: You were not briefed and you were not given any orders by your Commanding Officer, Major Els?

MR VAN GREUNEN: None at all, we were just told we're working in special digits that day.

MR TIPP: That's all?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: And we know that at 10h30 the Regional Commissioner, General Calitz, gave an order as a matter of priority that Shell House was to be cleared, you heard nothing about such order and you saw nothing being done to give effect to it?

MR VAN GREUNEN: None at all.

MR TIPP: Now Sergeant, at about 10h45, the Committee has already heard the evidence, I'm just going through it to put you in context, there were some shots down from the area roughly of Wanderers Street, apparently from some marchers and a number of policemen went off in that direction to investigate.

MR VAN GREUNEN: I don't know about the policemen who went to investigate about a shooting in Wanderers Street at that time.

MR TIPP: Well let - I'm not going to waste time on it, but you gave evidence at the inquest that at about 10h45 you heard a few shots and you moved west to the corner of King George and Plein Street, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And roundabout 11h00 shortly before the main shooting, the shooting that we're all concerned with, you heard other shots there in the vicinity of Shell House?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And your state of mind at that time, one couldn't tell precisely where they were coming from or what was happening, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you yourself were very tense and nervous?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And that is before the large group of marchers that you saw even came into your sight?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Generally Sergeant, the atmosphere there was one of tension and a sense of emminant peril, would you agree?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I agree.

MR TIPP: And that that is something that the ANC personnel there would also have shared from your observation there?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct, we were all tense.

MR TIPP: Now Sergeant, you've of course heard already me raise with Inspector van Reenen the apparently strange circumstance that two police officers, you and now Inspector van Reenen ran up to stop the crowd, you saw a group of 500 coming from De Villiers Street and round the corner into King George, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And in fact you gave evidence at the inqest that you'd looked up towards up King George Street in the direction of Noord Street and you hadn't seen a large group from there at all?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And we know in fact that there was one group from De Villiers Street and another from King George Street.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Now all that I'm putting to you is that the strange circumstance of so large a difference in observation in respect of groups of 500 is to be accounted for, because the events happened so fast and because they were really very frightening from beginning to end, would you agree with that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: I would agree.

MR TIPP: You yourself, as you were moving up with then Sergeant van Reenen to try to stop the group from coming on, you felt afraid for your own safety?

MR VAN GREUNEN: You could say I was cautious and I was afraid, although it was part of the duty to try and stop the conflict before it happens.

MR TIPP: It's not for me to compliment you, but it must have been a very difficult situation for any policeman, and an act of courage to move in that direction at all, but be that as it may, I'm just going to refer you to your evidence, I can read it if necessary, if you don't recall it Sergeant, you just say so, but you gave evidence that as you approached the marchers you felt that you were in danger, you didn't know how the Zulus would react to you approaching them and you didn't know what was going to happen there.  Do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And also it was a dangerous situation because you had, as you put it, the Zulus with traditional weapons on the one side and the ANC with firearms on the other side?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And the potential for conflict was clear to you at that time?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's also correct.

MR TIPP: Also at the time, is it correct that the possibility had crossed your mind that these marchers might in fact try to press their way into Shell House?

MR VAN GREUNEN: At that stage I didn't really think about that at that time, all I thought about was trying to get the people to move in a different direction other than coming up in King George Street.

MR TIPP: Perhaps you can just explain one, a couple of lines from your evidence.
	Mr Chairman at page 1986, line 13 to 17.  
	You have your record there Sergeant, I think.  I'll just read it to you.  You'd given reasons why you at one stage of your evidence had said that you could see no reason why there had been shooting on the marchers, and one of them was that the building, Shell House, had according to you, correctly or not is unimportant now, but you had believed that it had bulletproof doors, do you remember that?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct, ja.

MR TIPP: And I then asked you at line 13 on that page
"Kan 'n mens daarvan die gevolgtrekking maak dat hoewel ten tye van die voorval opgeval het dat die optoggangers miskien sou probeer om binne-in Shell House in te druk?"
And your answer was:  
"Dit kan moontlik wees."
And I asked you again:  
"Moontlik?"
And you said: "Ja."

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct, Sir.

MR TIPP: And do I understand that bit of evidence correctly then that "ten tye van die voorval", at the time of the incident, that possibility had crossed your mind?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Yes.

MR TIPP: Now we already know Sergeant that you, as did Inspector van Reenen, both of you were in uniform as you approached the on-coming marchers, correct?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Police uniform, a regulation blue uniform?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you were both openly carrying arms, in fact you were carrying a shotgun.

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And it was perfectly visible to people as you approached them?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: It was also absolutely clear to them that you police officers wanted them not to proceed further south down King George Street?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Notwithstanding that, you were knocked out of the way by them?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And in the course of that you were injured by a spear or an assegaai, fortunately not a serious injury?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: But nevertheless Sergeant, it was an injury caused by someone who was aggessively pushing you out of the way, so that he and his fellow, the fellows in the group could move on to where they wanted to go?

MR VAN GREUNEN: That is correct.

MR TIPP: The general bearing of that group, the one that gave you cause for alarm about your safety, was one of aggressiveness, do you agree?

MR VAN GREUNEN: At first it didn't seem as aggressive.  I guess when we tried to stop them, they probably just wanted to show us, listen we're gonna carry on up the street, and that's it.

MR TIPP: Well at that moment, that's the critical moment really, at that stage was it clear to you that their conduct was in fact aggressive?

MR VAN GREUNEN: Ja, I felt that way, ja.

MR TIPP: Yes.  And when you were knocked to one side you ended up with your back against the burglar-bars of the window of the Woburn Pharmacy, which is on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street opposite Shell House?