Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Did you?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall.

MR MALAN: Why do you tell us in your application that there was a personality clash between yourself and Eugene de Kock, and you refer to a fist fight, what is the background to that?

FRANK MCCARTER: It was unrelated to work, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: So in the work situation you had a perfect relationship?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well I would say it was officer to subordinate relationship.

MR MALAN: In some of the statements there's a reference to the fact that when you came down, de Kock was on leave, that he did not instruct you to come down to Durban but that someone else might have done it.  I think that's in the 204 statement that has just been circulated to us by Rosslee.

FRANK MCCARTER: It's quite possible, Mr Chairman, I don't know, but it was an ongoing thing that wherever we were requested by a different branch, we would go to that particular area.

MR MALAN: Who would put the request to you?

FRANK MCCARTER: Durban branch would request either Brigadier Schoon on Eugene de Kock.

MR MALAN: Can you recall who instructed you at that time to get down to Durban?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: On the bottom of page 36, page 37 of the bundle, you refer to your joining Koevoet in 1980, the frequent contact with SWAPO insurgents and then you say you witnessed many atrocities committed by the insurgents.  Were you not similarly involved in groups with such atrocities?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I can state myself and my group at the time, that none of us were involved in any actions against civilians or whatever, we were purely against armed insurgents.

MR MALAN: The type of action such as the killing of an unarmed person, and in this instance Bhila, simply because he was an activist or whatever, you have no knowledge of similar killings or actions which came to your knowledge since?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, these things have all recently come out in the open.  That's basically - some of the things one suspected but I haven't any intimate knowledge of any.

MR MALAN: Just before I ask the last question let me just say to you, one of my main difficulties and we've recently filed our report to the President, is that we have not managed to find out at what level really these instructions or cover-pus of actions after the fact, the protection that you've referred to, at what level that was carried out.
	You said earlier, I think you more or less said that you don't believe that the whole of government would have done that at that level, that's not how it functions.  Do you have any theory - theory is the wrong word, do you have any understanding following your activities and the protection referred to of at what level that happened, was it at Taylor's level, Taylor and de Kock, talking of the offices occupied?  Do you think de Kock reported to a senior or Taylor reported to a senior, do you have any knowledge of that, any understanding of that?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, not intimate knowledge but I would say that from my understanding that depending on whether there was any danger of something being exposed, the higher up it would then be reported.  Should nothing come of the action then it would stay on a need-to-know basis.

MR MALAN: Now that leads directly to my last question.  Is this not typical of an activity that took place at a lower level, we at that level took the law into our own hands, we protected South Africa, we know what had to be done, we did it in the cause of the National Party as is said and the government and the South African Police and if only if we're caught out we will seek protection somewhere?  Is that not the true construction to be put on this type of activity?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman, I think it would be a bit naive to think that a couple of Captains and Majors were running the whole security of the country.

MR MALAN: Now you present me with a major difficulty because you're now sort of saying that the eliminating, the killing of activists constitutes the whole security of the county, isn't the whole security of the country a very very wide concept where you were looking at normal prosecution, detentions for times, other policy measures, prevention of certain activities by simply prohibiting, prescribing against meetings etc., etc?  I'm talking only of assassinations.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I still say that I don't think that that order would have started at such a low level because had it come out, who would have protected those people, the Captains and the Majors?

MR MALAN: Their loyal seniors.

FRANK MCCARTER: But then by implication they were, it was condoned.

MR MALAN: But that's exactly what I'm heading at, was it not a question of actions which when it became known that it was condoned as apposed to your construction of vesting an authority and giving orders down the line, is that not more likely?

FRANK MCCARTER: It seems a bit unlikely if Minister Vlok and General van der Merwe gave the order for the South African Council of Churches and Cosatu House to blown up, that's terrorism in your own country.  So would they then stop or bilk at eliminating an activist?

MR MALAN: Are you seeing eliminating an activist as a more heinous crime or less than bombing a building?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well can't equate a value to a human life but if one's prepared to bomb, and the possibility of life being lost within a bombing incident then it can be equated to a human life.

MR MALAN: You're aware that they applied for amnesty for the bombing of Cosatu House and Khotso House?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Have they applied for any amnesty for killings?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Why do you think they would have ordered that and not apply?

FRANK MCCARTER: There were sufficient testimony to implicate Mr Vlok.

MR MALAN: Are you saying that Mr Vlok was part of a group that decided up front that we need a policy to kill activists that we cannot get convicted in the Court?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, I wouldn't be so bold as to make that statement, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Then I fail to understand your answer but I think I've more or less pursued this as far as is possible, but it remains something outstanding in my mind as a member of the Commission to try and find out really what happened where.  Thank you, Mr McCarter.

CHAIRPERSON: You said no senior policeman ever instituted an investigation into this sort of thing.  He wasn't very senior but I take it you have heard of Frank Dutton?

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what was your relationship with Mr Bosch, what rank did he hold at this time?

FRANK MCCARTER: He was a Sergeant at that time, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And part of your unit?

FRANK MCCARTER: We operated in different groups.  Rosslee was mainly working with me, Bosch came down on one or two occasions at the most.  He generally operated in other areas.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was an ordinary member of the police stationed at Vlakplaas?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And was treated in the same way as the rest of you?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking this because in his amnesty application at page 5 he was asked if he got any advantage from this and he said
"Yes, financial."
And he was given a bonus in cash, did you know about this?

FRANK MCCARTER: It's the first I've heard of it, Mr Chairman.