Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR DUBE: What I said was in October, it may very well happen that I read the newspaper in January, or October for that matter, but I did say that I cannot recollect all the incidents, especially in their sequence, and my problem then was finding Sicelo and find out as to where he was at the time that was, my mind was preoccupied by that.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have told us, and I'm afraid I do not understand your present answer, you have told us that this happened in October.  You are quite certain it happened in October.  And you told us earlier that it figured prominently in the media, that he was arrested.

MR DUBE: That I said.

CHAIRPERSON: In October?

MR DUBE: Yes, I also said it happened in October.

CHAIRPERSON: And then he disappeared.  You don't know what happened to him after that.

MR DUBE: Yes, that's exactly what I said.

MR RICHARD: Did you make any approaches to the DPSC or request any of the cell members to make contact with the DPSC if you were so concerned?

MR DUBE: I said earlier on that I told commander of the cell, or I told the commander of the cell and requested him to look for him 'cause we did not know what was happening, and to him.

MR RICHARD: Now, I'm going ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard I think your question was, the question you put to the witness was did he make any attempt to find out from the DPSC as to the whereabouts of Sicelo.  I don't think that question has been answered.  Was anything done to find out from the DPSC offices whether they knew anything as to the whereabouts of Sicelo?

MR DUBE: From my side, I discovered that, I realised that it would be quite difficult.  It would have been risky if they went there to enquire.  Maybe it could have been a trick for us so we felt it's not safe for us to go and enquire direct from DPSC.

ADV SANDI: So what was going to be done to find out where Sicelo has gone to?

MR DUBE: Things like enquiring from friends, or asking friends.  His friends.  Sicelo's friends that is.  In other words finding out from friends and going to the family, it was  another difficult thing for me to do.  It was not as easy to go and enquire from the family.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if anyone of you such as Clive, do you know if anyone of them ever went to the family to find out where this gentleman has gone to?

MR DUBE: No, I don't know now.

ADV SANDI: Did you personally ever ask your comrades from your cell if they have taken any steps to find out about the whereabouts of Sicelo?

MR DUBE: I did as them from time to time during Sicelo's disappearance, as to find out whether there were improvements or any latest developments.

ADV SANDI: What did they say?

MR DUBE: They did say that they had failed and they can't tell me, or they did not know themselves as to where he was.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  You say that you felt it was inappropriate for either you or one of the cell members to approach the offices of the DPSC.  Why do you make that statement?

MR DUBE: Firstly I mentioned that we were involved in underground structures of MK, and it was difficult for me to take a decision that one of us should go there because I thought if that person was arrested that would be another problem for us.

MR RICHARD: Now you've said you didn't know who the DPSC was.  Isn't that really your answer?

MR DUBE: What I didn't know was what the letters DPSC stood for, but I knew about it, but I was not aware of their specific duties, what they did, in detail, but I was aware of them.

MR RICHARD: Now, if I told you that there are photographs that I've seen of the deceased giving lectures or presentations on detention at the Anglican Cathedral in Johannesburg during October, November 87, would you know about it?

MR DUBE: No.

MR RICHARD: Now, let me also put another proposition to you, and that is that if firearms were found at Kotze House where the DPSC was operating, the DPSC would have been closed down with such speed, at that time, it would have been in the press and world news.  So it's essentially absurd to say that firearms were found at the offices of the DPSC.  Any comments on that?

MR DUBE: I do not know.

MR RICHARD: Now, I return to your sworn statement, page 10 of the bundle.  Does the witness have a bundle?  He has not.  At paragraph 4, you make this statement
"...The circumstances that led myself, Sipho Tshabalala, Clive Makhubu and Singon Gensini Zungo to take a decisive decision to eliminate Sicelo Dhlomo were as follows -"
It is the typed statement at the back, page 10 of the bundle, paragraph 4.  Have you?

MR DUBE: I see it.

MR RICHARD: Now, who took down that statement?

MR DUBE: I wrote it.

MR RICHARD: You wrote it.  Now when you say "...that led myself" and the others to make a decisive decision, is it correct to say that all four of you came to a collective decision to execute Sicelo Dhlomo?  That's the plain meaning of that sentence.

MR DUBE: Yes, I wrote that.  We agreed together.  But that is not so.  The reason why I mentioned this was because these were all members of the cell, and this happened, we were all aware of what was happening, and it was a situation that puzzled and worried all of us.  And also for the fact that we were all present when Sicelo was shot.  Those are the reasons why I put it that way.

MR RICHARD: Do you agree that the meaning of the paragraph is that the four of you made a joint decision?  That's what that sentence means, in the affidavit.

MR DUBE: Yes, that is what the paragraph says, but I am the person who took the decision.  I wrote it in this way because I was trying to explain that we were all involved as members of the cell.

MR RICHARD: Now, tell me, on the afternoon of Sunday the 24th of January 1988, that's the afternoon before he was shot, do you know where Sipho Tshabalala was?

MR DUBE: I knew about that but I had asked Clive to phone them, that is after Sicelo had surfaced.  He was at his home.

MR RICHARD: And where was Clive?

MR DUBE: I was with him at his house.

MR RICHARD: At what time?

MR DUBE: I arrived at his home between two and three in the afternoon.

MR RICHARD: And where is that house?

MR DUBE: It's at Emdeni.

MR RICHARD: I read from a statement given by Sipho to his attorneys on the 28th of January 1988, he there says
"...I met Godfrey Dhlomo at about 3 p.m.  This was on Sunday the 24th January 1988.  I met him at Naledi.  We were in a house in Naledi.  George was the last to come.  In the house was myself, Clive Makhubu, Joe and another one whose name I don't know.  As I said, Godfrey was the last to come."
Does that describe anything that you're familiar with?

MR DUBE: No, I do not know anything about that.

MR RICHARD: In that case you would say that Sipho Tshabalala is misrepresenting his story in this statement which was taken in January 1988?

MR DUBE: ...(indistinct) what he said, but I do not know anything about that.

MR RICHARD: Now, on the day that you shot him, what was Sicelo Dhlomo wearing?

MR DUBE: I cannot remember.

MR RICHARD: Because here Sipho Tshabalala proceeds to say he had on a red T-shirt and blackish trousers, red shoes and red socks.  Does that refresh your memory?  It's also consistent with what the police found him wearing, there they describe the pants as grey.

MR DUBE: I don't really remember with regards to what he had on.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you described finding something on his person, earlier today, where on his clothing was this apparatus?

MR DUBE: It was on the left side of his waist.

MR RICHARD: On the left side of his waist.  What did it look like?

MR DUBE: It looked like a walkie talkie.

MR RICHARD: Then why earlier today did you say it was in his pocket?

MR DUBE: I did not say it was in his pocket.  I said I saw something bulging.  That is what I said.  I said I saw something bulging.