Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, if one looks at that paragraph, it says "the ANC sought", that is what it would have liked to have done, at the same time, elsewhere in these documents and if you look at the Kabwe Conference sections, it talks about not having the fact that civilians present, to allow the ANC from being prevented from acting against the Security Forces.  There came a time in the struggle and let me put a theoretical or hypothetical case, if we are in a combat situation and you have ANC combatants fighting against Forces of the regime and there are other civilians present at that time, often you found that the Security Forces were firing at the crowd and perhaps even at combatants.  The responsibility for that would have been then that would we then say that the ANC cadres or the combatants should not then fire back and that the Security Forces therefore had the leeway and to continue fighting in which ever way they wanted?  Because often the situation was created that the Forces of apartheid were ready to go on and fight and oppress and it was only when the Liberation Forces were able to fight back and strike at them, that they began to feel the pain and the hurt, it is when they themselves bled, that they realised that they did not have the stomach to die for apartheid.

MR RICHARD: And however, when it comes to the major premise and starting point of what the approach was, subject to your amplification that you have just given us, that paragraph that I quoted, is a very short summary of that major premise?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: It sought initially to avoid all casualties, it started with sabotage campaigns.  Over the years the struggle evolved, as the viciousness of the apartheid regime increased, the response of the masses and its armed wing, also changed.

MR RICHARD: I understand what you have said, but to rephrase my question in a simple yes or no, is that a very, very brief summary of the premise upon which the philosophy of the ANC in relation to civilian casualties, was based?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, I have said that the ANC sought at different stages to avoid civilian casualties.  There came times when it could not avoid it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the statement said that the ANC sought to avoid civilian injury and loss of life.  You would agree with that?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, I said that right at the outset, but I am elaborating.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, wasn't that civilians died and they were responsible for it, it is just that, that was, would you agree that this very briefly sums up the policy that the ANC during the period of the struggle sought to avoid civilian injury and loss of life?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I would say yes.

MR RICHARD: This document was written long after Kabwe and indeed for the purposes of this Commission, however, in the sense that it was written afterwards, it is reflective of the policy as at the cessation of the armed struggle?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in fairness to the witness, the quotations and the witness has answered the question really, the quotations that my learned friend is relying on, are set out in a brief introductory paragraph headed "Manifesto".  In the very same document at page 65, the ANC deals with the Kabwe Conference, in that very document.  My learned friend, in questioning Mr Ismail, should place ... (tape ends) ...

MR RICHARD: Is it not correct that this document was written in preparation for this Commission, yes or no?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, it was.

MR RICHARD: And subject to all of what is said in it, and not only the excerpts, is it a statement of what the policy of the ANC was as at the end of the armed struggle in 1990?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: It sought to explain the policies, it outlines details where possible, of what the actions were, etc.  There aren't only policy statements, there are various statements inside of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, these documents deal with the ANC's policies, standpoints during the period 1960 through to 1994?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: They do Mr Chairperson, but especially when you look at Volume 2.1, these were Further Submissions and the responses by the ANC to questions raised by the Truth Commission and they sought to answer those questions that were put.

MR RICHARD: I have established that subject to your answers that it states the evolution and development of the ANC's policy during that period and then if we turn to the next page, there is a paragraph which starts, it may be lower down on your page
"... we are also mindful that armed conflict meant that combatants on both sides confronted one another on various terrains and various circumstances."
	Have you got that paragraph?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, I have.

MR RICHARD: There the paragraph goes on
"... we expect a balanced appreciation of the circumstances that obtained at the time."
	What is meant by that phrase?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well Mr Chairperson, we've got to firstly look at the responsibility of the State, the resources that the State had at its disposal and what they were supposed to have done, and that is to have basically been protecting the people of the country, not been at war with them, which they never succeeded in, nor did they intend to, because they basically had vilified the people of the country, on the other hand, the ANC had meagre resources at its disposal and it had to fight with the limited resources that it had, in fighting a strong and powerful enemy and that one's got to look at what happens in relation to that, the responsibilities that each carried, the Liberation Movement carrying the responsibility for freeing and liberating the country with the resources at its disposal and with the State that had all these resources, that it utilised in basically oppressing and repressing the population.

MR RICHARD: Does that extend to mean that in judging the activities of the ANC, it should be differently judged to another party to the conflict?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I do not see how we can judge them in the same way.  The objectives of each of those, were different.  Would you judge the Nazi perpetrators in the same way that you did the allies?  In the course of the war, millions of civilians died.  In the Soviet Union alone, 20 million plus died.  The majority of them, civilians.   No action was ever taken against the allies, they were there, they were seen as liberators.  The Nazi regime were the perpetrators of the heinous crimes, crimes against humanity and it is they that were put on trial.  In this case, apartheid was deemed a crime against humanity and for that, you cannot simply say that you take the two things and see them as the same.  They weren't the same, they were opposing poles.

MR RICHARD: Isn't it also common cause and you have made mention of the Second World War, that in any conflict if one looks at the behaviour of both sides, that at various times and to various degrees, both sides might have committed what we call gross human right violations?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, in the course of a war, in the course of a struggle, mistakes were made, mistakes were committed.  The ANC has been open and honest about those, it talks about these, it talks about the situation in the camps, but it never sought to commit atrocities like the apartheid regime did.

MR RICHARD: To continue, and this time as we go through the pages, the numbering will be even more out, but it should be around page 14 of your documents, it is paragraph 2.2 entitled "Armed Operations and Civilian ..." ...

CHAIRPERSON: It is page 13.