Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-17

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you get to the assault.  Did you say that they told you that the fourth person who did not arrive there, went to Swaziland?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.  With later interrogation, it was not during the arrest.

MR MALAN: Did they say to you that the fourth person was the person who gave them the limpet mines or that it was an unknown person?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Their initial lie was that it would have been another person, and not the person who went to Swaziland and that they did not know him, but it was a lie, and we knew that.

MR MALAN: How did you know this?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We knew who the group was and who the members of this group was.

MR MALAN: How did you know that Ngema did not go to Swaziland if he was then the fourth person?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I am sorry, I do not understand your question.

MR MALAN: When your evidence was led, you said that they told you that the fourth person went to Swaziland?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, when they made that allegation, they said that it was a person who went to Swaziland, who left the weapons with them.
	At that stage they did not say it was the fourth person of their group.

MR MALAN: Thank you, it is more clear now.  Excuse me, did you ask any questions with regards to the absence of this fourth person?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We expected four to arrive at the scene.

MR MALAN: And you knew that it would be Ngema?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you ask them questions about this?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes.

MR MALAN: And what did they answer?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: They admitted at a later stage that it was Ngema and they said that he went to Swaziland.

MR MALAN: In other words he went to Swaziland as well as the person who left the weapons with them, went to Swaziland, was that their story?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Well, then I do not understand who went to Swaziland?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Ngema went to Swaziland.

MR MALAN: And the person who left the limpet mines with them?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It would also be Ngema?

MR MALAN: Did they say so?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Initially they said, or they said that they did not know Ngema.

MR MALAN: Did you know that he did not go to Swaziland, is that what you are saying to us?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We did not know at that stage that he went to Swaziland.

MR MALAN: Well, then I do not understand Mr Visser's question that you knew better.  Maybe Mr Visser can just explain this to me.

MR VISSER: Commissioner, it was about the fact that they told a story that an unknown person left the limpet mines with them, and that they were on the way to get rid of them.  That is what they knew better, they knew that they were on their way to go and place the limpet mines as a group or a unit.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: They firstly referred to an unknown person, and that this person went to Swaziland if I understand you correctly?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And afterwards it seems that the fourth person was Ngema and that he possibly also went to Swaziland?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that he indeed went to Swaziland and that he was part of their group.

MR VISSER: But you did not know at that stage if he did go to Swaziland?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, we did not know that.

MR VISSER: During the questioning, did they agree that they would show where the target would be?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And the members who were present there, the four, Taylor, Botha, yourself and Wasserman, did you then take a decision?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What was the decision?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We decided that we are going to eliminate them at the place or the spot that they wanted to target.

MR VISSER: What are you going to do then?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We will then get rid of the bodies with explosives.

MR VISSER: The people then went to the railway line in the Phoenix area?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What happened there at the scene?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We took the explosives out of the car.

MR MALAN: I wonder Mr Visser, if you can just ask him, he has heard the evidence, if maybe he can add anything else.

MR VISSER: It would be in order yes.  The evidence from here on would be the same as Mr Wasserman's.  I would just like to deal with it short.
	The three people were then taken to a place at the railway where with the nod of Botha, they were killed or shot by your group.  After the first shot was fired, do you know if any other shots were fired after that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I fired two shots at the person who was in front of me.

MR VISSER: Afterwards, did you then prime the limpet mines?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct yes.

MR VISSER: And the bodies were then placed on the limpet mines, with the hands and heads on them and you then left there and afterwards you heard the explosion of the limpet mines going off?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct yes.

MR VISSER: Did you agree with the decision that they had to be eliminated?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: What was the reason for this?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: There was no possibility to recruit them as informants because they were three together, and also because they were responsible for most or various explosions in the Durban area.

MR VISSER: Did you consider them as dangerous?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, they were dangerous terrorists.

MR VISSER: Did you think that they had more explosives or ammunition?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, I thought that.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Christo Nel.  Mr Du Preez, just a few questions about late Colonel Taylor.
	Do you agree with me, I think especially the applicants here, you would be the one who would have known Taylor the best?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, I knew him very well.

MR NEL: You worked with him longer than the others at the Security Branch?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR NEL: Is it correct that late Bobby Welman who were also an explosives expert, was in charge of Taylor and were also very close to him?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR NEL: And the late Mike Mbede worked under Taylor's command as one of his men?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR NEL: Would you say that Colonel Taylor's political viewpoints would be the same as yourself and the others here?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR NEL: And it is also so that in the last few months of Taylor's life, and also in the application that he submitted, you had a lot of contact with him?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, I did liaise with him regularly.

MR NEL: What was your impression concerning the memories he had, or information that he had, if you discussed it with him?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Well, Taylor could not remember a lot of things.

MR NEL: If you look at Taylor's application, he says at one stage that he helped with the digging of the grave on Ndwandwe.  Can you comment on that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not true.

MR NEL: Would you say that it is a mistake that he made because of his bad memory?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, it was a mistake that he made.