Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

MR VISSER: We are ready Chairperson.  If we may proceed then?  Chairperson, we are still busy with the incident concerning Mr Ndaba and Mr Shabalala.  The next witness who is also an applicant to be called is Mr du Preez.  He is present and ready to take the oath.  He will give his evidence in Afrikaans, Chairperson.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Du Preez, you are an applicant ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Visser, sorry, if you just hold on one second, there's a small technical problem.  Unfortunately the Zulu interpreters are not here Chairperson.  We've just been informed that by the logistics person.  They're going to be about another ten minutes we're told.  Perhaps we should just adjourn till then?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I refer you to a document which has been handed up in the name of Mr du Preez summarising his evidence.  Could that be marked Exhibit L?
	Mr du Preez, you previously gave evidence before this Committee under the Chairmanship of Judge Mall, is that correct?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you repeat the evidence that you've already given and the reference to other evidence as you have already given it today?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Your amnesty application is in the Ndaba bundle on pages 26 to 39?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the content of this statement and also the content of Exhibit O to the evidence you're about to give?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr du Preez, in order to save time, you say that you have listened to the evidence of General Steyn and Colonel Botha and that you will agree with this evidence?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And then you also refer to the evidence of Colonel Botha being Exhibit B and then you set out which paragraphs you have personal knowledge of which paragraphs contain information that has been told to you which paragraphs with general knowledge and you agree with the considerations that Colonel Botha had set out, is that correct?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Will you please turn to page 2 of Exhibit L paragraph 1.5.  This is about the events close to the Greyville Racecourse where Mr Shabalala was arrested.  Mr Botha gave evidence that it was his impression that only Mr Shabalala who was arrested and not Mr Ndaba.  What do you recall of this event?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Paragraph 25, I confirm it except that I remember the arrest a little bit differently to Colonel Botha in his oral evidence.

MR VISSER: Can you please go a little bit slower?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I remember that we pretended that we were also arresting Ndaba.  According to me this was done to create the impression with Shabalala ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Please go slower.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: To create the impression that they were both being arrested.  In order to protect Ndaba's informer status that I had then been informed of.

MR VISSER: What exactly was your part and your action during this arrest?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I, together with Sergeant Wasserman, pulled Shabalala, we were at the back of the vehicle and we pulled him to the back and we kept him there.

MR VISSER: And after this had happened did you then leave the scene?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you remember who was driving the vehicle, that would be the blue Toyota Corolla?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.  Sergeant van der Westhuizen was driving the vehicle, I was sitting in front with him and Wasserman was at the back with Shabalala.

MR VISSER: Can you please continue from paragraph 1.6?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I confirm that Ndaba along with Colonel Botha drove in the same vehicle and that myself, Van der Westhuizen and Wasserman had been in the vehicle with Shabalala, a blue Toyota Corolla and we went to Verulam.

MR VISSER: Can you please continue to paragraph 1.9?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: During the weekend for most of the time I was at the safe house and had conversations with both Shabalala and Ndaba.  Ndaba freely spoke to us about his knowledge concerning operation Vula.  We received no orders to try and recruit Shabalala as an informer or to try and get information from him.  I want to put it very clearly that I did not assault one of the two people ever while they were with us.

MR VISSER: Did someone else assault them?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No one else in my presence assaulted them.

MR VISSER: During the conversations that you are referring to that you had with Mr Shabalala can you please tell the Committee what Mr Shabalala's attitude was and what the conversation was about?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I was mostly questioning him about who he was, I didn't know Shabalala and I was asking him about who he was and where he came from and he was aggressive.

MR VISSER: He didn't give you his help?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No.

MR VISSER: Did you indeed see him as informer material or not?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It never occurred to me.

MR VISSER: Can you please turn to paragraph 1.12, you say that you confirm the paragraphs mentioned there and concerning paragraph 46 do you want to say something?  1.12, paragraph 46, Exhibit D.  Maybe I should put it on record what paragraph 46 covers, it is about the arrest of Mr Siphiwe Nyanda.  You heard what Warrant Officer Wasserman gave evidence to, do you agree with this evidence?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you please tell us what you say in paragraph 1.12?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Concerning paragraph 46 I want to indicate that myself and Warrant Officer Wasserman ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: You're going too quickly, Mr Du Preez.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Myself and Wasserman and observed Siphiwe Nyanda.  During the course of the 12th July 1990 it became clear to us that he had become aware of our observation of him.

MR VISSER: Can you please stop there?  Why do you say it would become clear to you?  That he realised that you were watching him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was the way in which he was driving, the pattern in which he was driving that gave us this indication.

MR VISSER: Is this the same as Mr Wasserman was talking about or are you talking about something else?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I'm talking about his driving behaviour.

MR VISSER: Please continue?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: He sped away with his vehicle and with the help of other members we stopped the vehicle and we arrested him.  I do not believe that the instructions that arrests had to be held back had already been conveyed to us but I have to explain that even if it had been conveyed it would not have stopped us under those circumstances to arrest Nyanda.  If we had not done that he would have gotten away and he would have hid somewhere.

MR VISSER: On page 198 of the other side of the story you saw that there were photos.  Can you say if this is the vehicle in which you had arrested Mr Nyanda?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That was the vehicle.

MR VISSER: Can you please then turn to paragraph 2 on page 4?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: My attention had been aimed at statements of Ntusi Nzulu concerning a blue Toyota Corolla.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, do you wish me to give you the references again?  I've given you the references before during Wasserman's evidence.  It's Exhibit F Chairperson.  Perhaps very briefly page 15 and page 19.  Very well?