Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : Yes, let's go back to the incident with Oosthuizen.  You say he said to you you mustn't kill small children but youmust kill people like Senator Bloem?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : What sort of people would understand them tobe when he says kill people like Senator Bloem it doesn't makea lot of sense to me.   What sort of people were they, what sortof people did you understand the Sergeant to be referring to?

ANSWER: The leaders within the ANC Organisation, that'swhat I think.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is that how you understood Sgt Oosthuizen?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was Mr Bloem at that time in fact a leaderof the ANC?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : What was the response of your gang membersto that suggestion, did the gang members find that suggestionacceptable?

ANSWER: Yes we accepted the suggestion because we werescared that we would be arrested, we wanted him to leave us alone.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you in fact do that as he had suggested?

ANSWER: No we never did that.

<UNKNOWN>: : In other words you did not kill leaders ofthe ANC as according to Sgt Oosthuizen suggested?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : But did members of the Three Million Gang thenkill members of the ANC who were not leaders?

ANSWER: I don't know.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is it possible that it could have happenedand you don't know?

ANSWER: Yes I just saw on TV and reading the newspapersthat such things took place.

<UNKNOWN>: : If you were to hear that some.......

ANSWER: ...I was released in October with bails and Iwas arrested on 26 February so it was those months and it's fourmonths, I can still remember, but when coming to a person thereare so many and they would pass by everytime and I can't rememberevery face.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you given the gun as soon as you werereleased on bail?

ANSWER: Ja it just happened like that, I never organisedit.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why did you take a gun when you were out onbail?

ANSWER: For the sake of my community's lives and....(tapeswitched off)...

<UNKNOWN>: : Apart from killing them, are there any otherthings which members of the Three Million Gang did to membersof the ANC, apart from killing them as Oosthuizen has suggested?

ANSWER: I can't remember some of the many things thathappened.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yesterday also evidence was given that membersof the Three Million Gangs would disrupt matches organised bymembers of the ANC and also attempt to break consumer boycottsorganised by members of the ANC.   Did that in fact happen?

ANSWER: What I know every time when we were in town andwhen we come back it would be a consumer boycott but when, whenthe people opened the kombis and they see that we are in the kombisthey would run away, so that is one of the things that made usstop the consumer boycotts.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is that how you stopped this consumer boycott?

ANSWER: I think that was the thing disturbing them actually.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why would people run away on seeing you?

ANSWER: They used to run away because it was rumouredthat Three Million people were killing people and many thingswere said and that is why they decided, they ran away.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did members of the Three Million Gang assaultother people as well, other than members of the ANC?

ANSWER: No it's not like that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is the Three Million Gang still in operationnow?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : What stopped it or what killed it?

ANSWER: A special unit arrived here and we were all takento prison and when we came out things were back to normal, therewas quiet in Maokeng.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know who was in charge of that specialunit?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who was that?

ANSWER: Are you referring to the leader of that specialunit, police unit, it's Captain Dareen(?).

<UNKNOWN>: : Did they tell you what they were arrestingyou for?

ANSWER: No they didn't tell us anything, they arrivedin the morning it was on 15 June, I can't remember the year, andthey said to us then I saw many cases that people have been doingto us, they said we should come with them so that we can, theycan rectify those cases.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...they locked you up?

ANSWER: No they didn't lock us up first, they left usat offices at (indistinct) Maokeng and the photographed us whilewe were there and they then took us to the court of law and thecourt was reminded (sic) and we were just surprised on which basiswere we reminded.

<UNKNOWN>: : Before the arrival of the special unit hadthere been any members of the Three Million Gangs who were arrestedin connection with offences committed in the township?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : As far as you know had those people been convictedand sentenced to jail or what happened to them, as far as youknow?

ANSWER: Some of them went to jail and some of them weredischarged, they were found not guilty.

<UNKNOWN>: : You have told us that you would some time occasionallybe fed bread by somebody or some people, apart from being suppliedwith bread did the Three Million Gang, as far as you know, receiveany financial assistance from anybody?

ANSWER: I don't know I think I've already explained thatmy role in the Three Million I was still a youth I don't knowanything that has got to do with financial matters.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm not quite sure if I understand your evidence,perhaps you could help me.   There was the Three Million Gangand then there were three other gangs you mentioned one of whichwas the Witdoeke, but I didn't get the names of the other two.  You said you didn't know the name of the third but you, theCanadians is that so?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did these gangs fight one another?

ANSWER: Those were the gangs fighting Three Million.

<UNKNOWN>: : Those three gangs were fighting, and was theANC Youth League like a gang too?

ANSWER: No it wasn't a gang, I just put it aside I nowremember the third one.   I've already said it was Canadians,Witdoek and Tsekeletswas.

CHAIRPERSON: : Can that name be spelled please?

ANSWER: T-s-e-k-e-l-e-t-s-w-a-s.

<UNKNOWN>: : ....any of you self-defence units?

ANSWER: Who are you referring to sir?

<UNKNOWN>: : These three gangs, we've heard of the self-defenceunits, do you know who I'm talking about?

ANSWER: Yes I understand you.

<UNKNOWN>: : Because my recollection is that one of thewitnesses we've heard told us that the Witdoeke were the self-defenceunits or certainly had ANC connections, do you know anything aboutthat?

ANSWER: No I don't know anything about that, they wereon their own I don't know that is why we couldn't meet, that meansI wouldn't be in a position to know whether they were SDU's.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'll leave that for the moment but there wasgang fighting taking place all over was there?   Were these gangsfighting one another?

ANSWER: Yes they were fighting one another.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did Sgt Oosthuizen stop you when you were onyour way to another fight?

ANSWER: Yes he stopped us, he wanted us to go back.

<UNKNOWN>: : And he disarmed you?

ANSWER: Yes he disarmed us.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you go back?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Taka who gave instructions to your gangto make attacks against the members of the ANC?

ANSWER: Nobody came up with orders, we were giving ordersourselves.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was there no one who was planning the attackson the ANC amongst the gang members?

ANSWER: Nobody.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did Diwiti(?) do as he was the leaderof the gang was he not responsible for the planning?

ANSWER: No I only knew that Diwiti was the leader ofthe gang when I read that in the papers...[interjections fromaudience].

<UNKNOWN>: : To your knowledge who was the leader of theThree Million Gang?

MEMBER OF COMMISSION: Sorry could we, answer please wecouldn't hear the previous answer.

<UNKNOWN>: : Will you please repeat your answer?

ANSWER: I said as it has been alleged that Diwiti wasour leader I don't know that, I was only surprised to read thatin the newspapers.