Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-30

M A NZIMANDE: Is Boy Patele.  Is it Patele who was an organiser at the area.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, was Patele the leader or was he an organiser in the area?

M A NZIMANDE: He was an organiser.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, who was the local leader of the ANC in the area?  Let me put it this way.  Whenever you had ...

M A NZIMANDE: There was not yet a leader in that area.  We were just only an organiser who would come in to establish the party.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You had meetings of the ANC in the Gengeshe area, not so?

M A NZIMANDE: I never attended one, but I heard that they use to have meetings, the youth, but I never attended one.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, but the others, like yourself, like Mr Poswa and others, did you not engaged in some ANC meetings, because Patele was concerned with the youth, I want to believe?

M A NZIMANDE: I never went to a meeting with Mandlenkosi Poswa.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, ...

JUDGE WILSON: How old are you?

M A NZIMANDE: I am 37 years old.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you say what you did on this day, the 26th of September 92, you did in the name of the ANC?

M A NZIMANDE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But how can that be if there was never any meeting which you attended where, perhaps, an instruction or order was being given to embark on this type of an action?

M A NZIMANDE: May you please repeat the question.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How can it be, because you say you had not attended ANC meetings where, perhaps, this type of an order or an instruction or command could have been given to fight back?

M A NZIMANDE: I knew that I was an ANC member and I knew that he was also an organiser of the ANC in that area and I was an ANC member at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know that, perhaps, there was a policy by the ANC that when you are, you, as ANC members, are attacked you must attack back?  Did you know this or you did this out of your own volution?

M A NZIMANDE: We never intended to retaliated.  We were going back to our places to stay.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your statement, which was translated, I refer members of committee to 35A, his statement, you made mention of the fact that you went to a magistrate in Richmond.  Do you remember the magistrate's name?

M A NZIMANDE: We were new in that area.  We went to report the matter to the magistrate that as we were staying in Richmond we have, facing some problem in that area, because people are burning our houses and also taking our belongings.  However, I do not know what was his name.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he a Black magistrate or a White magistrate?

M A NZIMANDE: He was a White magistrate.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then in paragraph three of your letter you state, I quote,
"One Sunday Mr Nkabinde, the Richmond leader, came and told us to go back to Ndaleni.".
Which Nkabinde is this?

M A NZIMANDE: I was not referring to Nkabinde, I was talking about Mzwandile Bongwa.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So they wrote the name Nkabinde on your letter, it is incorrect?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, what was the position of Mzwandile Bongwa?

M A NZIMANDE: He was a leader in Ndaleni.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you said, paragraph four,
"Three IFP people came to talk to us at the Magistrates Court.".
Do you remember their names?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I remember.  It was Mgaukela Poswa, Stewo Poswa and Vimba Poswa.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, on your side, who was that?

M A NZIMANDE: Mr Poswa, who is sitting right next to me, was there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who else?

M A NZIMANDE: I do not remember the others.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did the magistrate act as a mediator between the two groups?

M A NZIMANDE: He did not work as a mediator.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, what made the solution not to be reached?

M A NZIMANDE: As we were asking them to go back to the IFP people to come back to Richmond so that we can sit down and talk, they said when they arrived at Gengeshe they came with the answer that they are not accepting our request.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, on page two of your letter, paragraph two, I will quote, the third line.  You say,
"Every weekend we buried our supporters and they were saying that they were going to finish us off.".
Where were you burying them now, because you were out of your own area?

M A NZIMANDE: We were burying them at Ndaleni, some of them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Finally, page three, the last paragraph.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, may I interpose.  Does it mean that when you were at Ndaleni the alleged members of the PAC, sorry, of the IFP from Gengeshe came and continued to launch attacks against you whilst you were at Ndaleni?

M A NZIMANDE: They did not attack us at Ndaleni, they pass and continue to attack people in town, in Pinetown and in Durban.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, they were attacking not specifically people who had moved from Gengeshe, but they were attacking people who were known to be ANC members?

M A NZIMANDE: They were attacking those who we left with from Gengeshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Finally, on page three of your letter you say,
"This is what I have to say, but I can supply more details at my hearing.".
Have you supplied us with all the details now?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I did.  There is nothing else.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Part of the mandate or the mission of the Truth Commission is to go to the root or the cause of some of these things.  In your own words, can you tell us what the cause was of all this happened in Gengeshe?

M A NZIMANDE: On the 12th of April 1992, the Patele Poswa was shot.  On the following day, it was on Monday, I left Gengeshe to stay at Ndaleni.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps I did not phrase my question correctly.  I would like you to tell us as to what all these killings were about.  What was to be achieved by these killings?

M A NZIMANDE: There was nothing to be achieved or gained.  The people were, the two organisations were fighting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE MPSHE

SISI KHAMPEPE: But I think the question is what were the two organisations fighting for.

M A NZIMANDE: We were not of the same view and in politics.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that being so, when you went to Gengeshe and fought the IFP members, what did you intend to achieve?

M A NZIMANDE: There was not anything that we aimed to achieve.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you not hope to go back to live there,  where you had been born?

M A NZIMANDE: May you please repeat your question.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you not hope to go back to live at Gengeshe where, as I understand it, you had been born?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, that is what we aimed to do.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In fact, at that stage you were staying at Ndaleni as a group and you were all occupying one house.  Is it not so?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, many people left Gengeshe.  We were young men and we went to Ndaleni.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And the house that you occupied at Ndaleni, how many people stayed in that house?

M A NZIMANDE: We use to be many sometimes and some of the days we will be few and over the weekend we will be many, because people will not be working.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And can you estimate the number that would be there over the weekend?

M A NZIMANDE: I would say 20 or 30.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how big was this house that you occupied?

M A NZIMANDE: It was a very big house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And was that house organised by your organisation?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, my brother gave it to us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, you know the Induna at Gengeshe, Indabazi Poswa?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, I knew him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did he belong to any political organisation or was he a supporter of any political organisation?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, he was an IFP.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what was his attitude to those people who stayed at Gengeshe who were not members of the IFP?

M A NZIMANDE: He did not, he hated them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know a Mr Yesim, Ms, Miss or Mrs Yesim Mbanjwa?

M A NZIMANDE: Yes, yes I know the person.