Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

WITNESS:   According to the information that I got I think that is about all that I can say but I would request this honourable Commission to investigate this matter further because we are not very clear as to the circumstances surrounding their deaths.  We would also like to know - as the parents and relatives of the victims, we would like to know what happened.  How they died and those who were not buried in here should be brought back into this country so that they can get some decent burial by their families.

MRS GCABASHE: What about the parents?  What are the parents of the victims saying?  Do they know that you have come here before this Commission to testify?

WITNESS:   Yes, they do know and some of them are present today.

MRS GCABASHE: We have listened to your story and we do appreciate your request that this matter should be investigated further and that the victims should be brought back to South Africa to get a decent burial.  What are you in this committee?  What position are you holding?

WITNESS:   I'm the chairperson of this committee.

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you very much, Joyce, that you have come to relate this story before this Commission especially because we know it's a very painful situation for youths to die, to be nipped in the bud whilst they're still growing and whilst they were planning to grace this country.  You have not yet told us as to what you are doing.  Are you working or are you attending school?

WITNESS:   At the present moment I'm not working.  I'm still as home.

MRS GCABASHE: Why is it that you're not working?

WITNESS:   I was working and I left my job because I'd intended to go back to school next year.

MRS GCABASHE: What standard did you pass?

WITNESS:   I got my matric. And what would you like to do next year when you go back to school?   ---   I wanted to do some business management courses.

MRS GCABASHE: We thank you very much to see that the youth never got discouraged because of the things that were happening before and because of the deaths of certain youths.  You behave like soldiers who are still fighting on and you are still very keen to further their education despite the fact that there were certain things that were discouraging you in the past from doing so.  We appreciate the fact that you have come before this Commission to reveal the truth and that you're still entrusted that more truth should be revealed.

WITNESS:   The police used to come even after the victims had died.  They used to come and harass the families of the victims and they would say that they knew that they had come back and they would not explain as to where they got that information from but they kept on harassing us.

MRS GCABASHE: I thank you very much, Joyce.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Are there any member of the Commission who wish to say something?  Professor.

PROF MAGWAZA: Again, Joyce, we want to thank you very much for having co-ordinated this effort.  And it's quite clear that you have been very, very supportive to the families.  I wish more people could be encouraged by what you've done.  In the same light I'd also like to give recognition to the families who lost their sons. I understand some of them are here in this room.  We'd like to see them.   It's their own story.   It's their own experience and the Commission does have a lot of interest in these families.  Somebody's standing.  We  would like to see you all.  Thank you very much.  I think the other thing is that Joyce has done a very good job but also as the Commission we'd like to get more information about your own experiences losing your sons, about your own needs, about your own situation now.  Each family, what's happening to you now.  So perhaps what could help the Commission also is if you could come and make your statements as families who have lost individually.  We don't want to forget you at the end of the day because at the end of the Truth Commission we'll have this big document with all the details of the families who have lost and we don't want to miss out on your details.  You have suffered.  You have lost your sons.  We want you to be part of this big, big, big vision and mission of the Commission.  Some of the information can only be provided by you.  So it's just to call upon you that after all the work, Joyce, that has done, that you still invited to come forward and even give your own statements.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Joyce.  I want to congratulate you for being the people's choice.  That is excellent that the families could have confidence in you and say that you must represent then.  That is right according to our Act.  The people - groups - can choose one person to represent them and they've chosen you to come and represent them.  Now, I'm just going to pose some few questions, Joyce, because I want us to get down to the roots of this thing.  You have said that these people when they were in Angola they were in different groups.  Is that true?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And each group had a leader.  Is that true?

WITNESS:   /That

CHAIRPERSON: That is also correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these groups all the ANC groups in Angola?

WITNESS:   The ones who had left - the victims - were members of ANC as well as MK members.

CHAIRPERSON: So all these groups were the groups of the MK members in Angola?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it true, did I understand you very well when you said that these people you represent, when they were there they belonged to different groups and one of the leaders was Moses Radebe?  Is that true?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is so, but when I said there were different groups, what I meant was that when they got to Tanzania they were all members of the MK but they were divided into certain groups which were falling under different names, Mzombe as well as Stimela but they were all members of the MK.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think that the other members of the MK would know how these people died?

WITNESS:   I believe so because those how came back also know about this.

CHAIRPERSON: What do they know?

WITNESS:   They know about the victims as to how they died.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they die?

WITNESS:   We were told that they were shot and some got ill.

CHAIRPERSON: They were shot by whom?

WITNESS:   I cannot really commit myself on that score but I was told - I would like to believe that they were killed by certain soldiers with whom they were in Tanzania.

CHAIRPERSON: By fellow MK members?

WITNESS:   Not MK members.

CHAIRPERSON: What types of soldiers?

WITNESS:   It was UNITA soldiers because they were fighting with the UNITA soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I wanted that to come out clear.  I was  /pushing

CHAIRPERSON: pushing you.  So you think that they were killed by the UNITA because they were fighting with UNITA.  I wanted that to come out clear for our records.  The last question now.  This is a pastoral question to you.  These were your comrades.  You were part of them and they left you and remained behind and you never saw them.  They died.  How did this affect you emotionally as a fellow traveller?

WITNESS:   I got very ill to such an extent that I was mentally disturbed and at that time I was still at school.  Then after quite some time I was taken to a doctor and I feel better than I did then.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still taking any treatment?

WITNESS:   Not at the moment because I couldn't afford that type of treatment.