Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MR CLARKE: My instructions are, in closing, that your conduct was simply a very cowardly act of robbery, crime of robbery.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLARKE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Clarke.  Ms Patel, any questions?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Ntonga, I just want to briefly go through the offences for which you've been convicted of as set out on page 30 of the bundle of documents that we have before us.  I see there that you are found guilty of malicious damage to property in that the telephone lines of Mr Hansel was cut.  I just want to know, you haven't mentioned anything about your involvement in cutting the telephone lines.  Can you just tell us whether you were in fact involved in that, whether you had any knowledge that those lines were cut?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I was not looking at everything, I was concentrating on my job and most of these things would happen during the night and it wasn't easy for one to see who is doing what but normally whenever we were about to do something the cutting of the telephone wires used to be the first thing to do.

MS PATEL: Okay.  So this was part of the plan that you were aware of but you yourself personally was not involved in.  Okay can we move on from there?  You were also found guilty of the attempted murder of Mr Cobus.  Now you've stated in your supplementary affidavit to us - oh no, I see that relates to Mr Pretorius and Mr Senti, sorry.  In your evidence to us you said that "I was afraid" you were afraid when you shot and that you weren't sure - sorry Honourable Chair, if I can just gather my thoughts?
	You state here that:
"I was not aiming to kill him, did not even see where he was, I was just shooting"
Does that mean that you did not intend to kill any person who was on the premises that night?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes I'm trying to explain that it was not my intention to shoot him, I just wanted to scare him so that he should know that what he had at the time is also what we had.

MS PATEL: Okay, if you just wanted to scare him, why shoot him in the face?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I couldn't even see him from where I was, I was just shooting because I wanted him to know that we had a firearm and a real firearm, that is the reason that made to hit him but that was never my intention.

MS PATEL: If your intention was only to prove that your firearm was in fact a real one, why didn't you shoot into the air, why shoot into the man's face?

MSIANDA NTONGA: As I've already explained, I couldn't even see him, I was not even aiming at him, I was just scaring him, therefore I couldn't shoot in the air, that would look like a tall gun.  I wanted him to understand that that was a real gun, therefore that is why I couldn't shoot in the air.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Then Mr Cobus' telephone wires were also cut and you were found guilty of malicious damage to property in respect of that.  Is your response in respect of your knowledge of the telephone wires being cut for this incident the same as in Mr Hansel's?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes, I did not see who cut the telephone wires but I am sure that the telephone wires were cut there as that used to be the first thing to do whenever we are about to do a job.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can you tell us how entry was gained into Mr Cobus' house?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I remember when I got in through a window with a certain group I am not sure whether it was a bathroom window but I remember getting indoor with a certain group of people.

MS PATEL: Okay and was it your intention to find weapons only and ammunition if possible?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct and we also wanted him to get the message that he should vacate the place.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry Honourable Chair.
	  Did Mr Cobus fire at you first?  Was that your evidence, I'm not sure if this is the incident where they were fired upon first?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes he is the one who shot at us.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Then with the Pretorius incident with Mr Senti, was there any damage to his property, to Mr Senti's house?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I can say it was a door that was hit by a bullet and himself, I cannot remember anything that was damaged in his house.

MS PATEL: Okay, well you were charged with malicious damage to property because the window was broken.  Do you deny that the window was broken?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No I cannot deny that but I cannot remember because we were quite a number of people, I couldn't look and see everything that was happening.

MS PATEL: But you weren't involved in that, you were at the front door, are you saying that the rest of the people were in other parts of the house?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: You wouldn't know why the window would have been broken, was there any discussion about that, do you know?

MSIANDA NTONGA: As I've already explained I am not sure, I do not have any knowledge about the window that broke and I cannot say it did not break but I cannot say yes it did.

MS PATEL: Okay, you say that you just wanted - you shot Mr Senti because you just wanted to scare him, was that right?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes I was just scaring him, I wanted him to open the door so that he can give us information as to how to get to the white man's house.

MS PATEL: That makes no sense to me, Sir, perhaps you can help me.  How do you shoot somebody to scare him if you want him to help you?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I was not directing at him as I've already explained.

MS PATEL: Are you saying that you just wanted to shoot the door open?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Why was Mr Senti's wife taken with to Mr Pretorius' farmhouse, was it to get help for Mr Senti who you had shot or was it to go and get him to leave the farm?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Initially our aim was to go there and get the firearms and drive him out of the farm but unfortunately something that happened at Mr Senti's house but we decided to take his wife along because we wanted him to also get help because when we get to Mr Pretorius' house we would try and force him, Mr Pretorius that is, to take this person who was injured to the hospital so that we can also get a chance and search in his house and get whatever we're looking for.

MS PATEL: Okay, but shooting Mr Pretorius was a mistake?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay.  You say that you were aiming at the dogs when Mr Pretorius was shot?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I was not aiming at the dogs, I was aiming at him directly, that is Mr Pretorius.

MS PATEL: Okay.  You didn't intend to shoot him?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I was pointing a gun at him because I wanted him to surrender and come to us not that I wanted to shoot him.

MS PATEL: And Mr Pretorius was unarmed at the time?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I did not see anything.

MS PATEL: Sorry, you said you didn't see anything but you were close enough to see if he did have a firearm on him, not so?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct, it might happen that he had a small firearm that can fit in the waist without being detected or seen.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you would just grant me a moment?
	Oh yes, if I can just backtrack for a second, Mrs Senti, did she come willingly with you to Mr Pretorius?

MSIANDA NTONGA: What I noticed that she was so scared and she had a shock for what happened.  We had to knock at next door her house because we wanted someone else to go with her so that she can feel safe and she can feel safe knowing that nothing was going to happen to her and we found a maid there and we took her with to Mr Pretorius' place.

MS PATEL: Okay, now this is the first time we've heard this evidence.  You say that - what did you say to the person who came with Mrs Senti to Mr Pretorius?  It's never been mentioned before.