Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I beg your pardon, I see it's also - there's something in the statement.
"Whilst we were still with Matthysen, Burger undertook a journey to London, he travelled with Alex Kavouris",
That's not correct.  
"This project was to meet and recruit somebody in London.  The person originally came from Zambia.  I know that this person was supposed to establish and import/export business in Zambia.  R70 000 had been budgeted for this project.  Nothing came of this and the suspicion took hold in our cell that Burger had taken the money."
Sir, it's on a need-to-know basis.  I would really like to know where Mr Botha got all this information from and to know about my projects.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you know if one looks at it, the statement just says that there was a rumour or a suspicion.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: ;   I think this is all rubbish.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, let's look at the same bundle, page 6, second paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: Back to that paragraph where it says that R20 000 was shared between yourself and someone else.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Between him and Burger.  This is totally untrue.  I am not at all aware of this amount and I also don't know how you can confirm the suspicion by means of Ferdi Barnard who wasn't even active in this Region 6.

MR WILLIAMS: Then let's lastly look at same bundle, page 51, paragraph 13.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose statement is this Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: The statement of Mr van Zyl.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think these statements were done by panicky people.

CHAIRPERSON: Which paragraph are you ...?

MR WILLIAMS: Paragraph 13.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 13.
MR WILLIAMS
"I know that Staal Burger and Alex Kavouris went to London during I think approximately 89, went to London by plane.  It was for the organisation that they went to London and they had to go and speak to somebody there.  I understood that Staal Burger gave Ten Thousand dollars to an unaware or non-aware member after he and Kavouris had recruited the person.  Staal Burger used Alex Kavouris as an unaware member, but I don't think that he informed the organisation about this.  I know that the clearing of the Ten Thousand Dollars had been outstanding for more than six months and there had been some speculation that Staal Burger and Alex Kavouris had taken the money themselves."

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That's not true.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr Chairman, perhaps we can just place on record that I think the rate value Dollar to the Rand at that stage must have been three rand to a dollar.

CHAIRPERSON: I think - when I was reading it, exactly that thought went through my mind that you don't times that by seven and a half, you times it by three at that stage, or something.  Mr Hockey, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

MR HOCKEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my questions have all been covered, so I've got no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HOCKEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hockey.  Ms Coleridge, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MS COLERIDGE: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you have any re-examination Mr du Plessis.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, perhaps just one aspect.

UNKNOWN: Mr Burger, the Chairperson's offices was at Speskop, is that correct?  Speskop in Pretoria?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: The Chairperson, yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's Gen Webb.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Was there any arrangement as to whether you were supposed to enter those premises of not?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I was not allowed to.

UNKNOWN: why not?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: We were part of this covert organisation which was not allowed to be linked to the State at all.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but did it have anything to do with your profile?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, because I was known as well.

UNKNOWN: And then the issue regarding the bomb, was there any order that the mechanism was supposed to be detonated shortly after the meeting had adjourned, as Mr van Zyl testified, in other words, was there such an arrangement that should have had that effect on those present?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.  I think it was so that after the meeting had adjourned the impact of the explosion would then have a greater impact on the members and would then discourage them from further participation in their activities, in their structure.

UNKNOWN: Would it make any difference as to the opinion you have expressed here as to whether if you had done it, you would have waited until 3 o'clock in the morning?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, well that was my explanation to Mr Kahanovitz, if you really wanted to ensure that there was nobody, but the effect would be greater if you had detonated the bomb immediately afterwards, after the meeting.

UNKNOWN: Then just lastly, the priority list.  Let us assume that one can see it as a sort of a target list and even if that was the case, before such an elimination would take place, there would still be the registration of such a project and all the necessary approval and authorisation would have to be obtained?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes, you couldn't simply just walk down the road with a list and if you see somebody whose name is on the list, you could just shoot him dead.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, no.

UNKNOWN: Then lastly, the elimination of an individual in an organisation.  I think we've covered it, but was it specifically to get rid of the individual, or was there a bigger motive behind it?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: As I explained yesterday, it was not aimed at the individual concerned, it was as a result of the structures to which he belonged and to hamper the activities of that structure in the bigger sense of the word.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, to destabilise them.

UNKNOWN: So in that context, would it have made such a major difference if Mr Gavin Evans had not been the chairperson or perhaps the secretary or perhaps a very active member of the ECC?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is true.

UNKNOWN: It would not have made a difference?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni do you have any  questions you'd like to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: A single question, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Burger you said Botha was only warned for his association with Barnard.  Were there any steps taken, any disciplinary steps taken against him?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, Mr Sibanyoni, his activities were temporarily suspended.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that without pay?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, we paid him.

CHAIRPERSON: So I don't know if that's a punishment or, sometimes it's better off.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: He was a very active rugby player.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it after a formal inquiry?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It was a decision made between the Managing Director, myself and the co-ordinator.

MR SIBANYONI: Were the complaints only his associations with Barnard, or were there any specific things which ...

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It was regarding his association with Mr Barnard.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.  Mr Burger, just - you  ...(end of tape) ... sort of expenses were paid at that stage?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: By the CCB?

MR LAX: Yes.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: They paid for my office furniture, everything including the furniture and everything in my office.

MR LAX: Why would they have done that?  You were the General Manager of the Hotel, wasn't there an office in the hotel with desks and chairs and so on?