Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR PIGOU: On the 16th January 1989 you attended a public meeting in Dobsonville, I am referring now to a document which should be in the Commissioner's file of a memorandum, it should be in everyone's files, of a memorandum produced by Bishop Peter Storey entitled Accounts of Events related to the abduction of youths from Orlando West. It is a running commentary of events that transpired during this period following the abductions of the boys from the mass.
 The meeting was during the evening in as I say in Dobsonville, the meeting started and I will read from this document which is Page 7, which I am referring to, that following evidence being led by Mr Palamichwa Entibisa Mono, to the meeting that this evidence is interrupted by the arrival of Krish Naidoo and Katiza, accompanied by one of the team. Katiza and the team member were excluded while the meeting debated whether it was safe to continue now that a team member knew where everyone was meeting. I will cut to where you are brought in and you give evidence admitting that you had participated in the beating of . . . (indistinct) Entibisa and Kenny and then asked why you responded "They were being beaten and I also felt like beating them" is that an accurate reflection of what was your feeling at the time when you were involved in the assaults? Katiza alleged that Verryn had "Lain on top of him on one occasion" asked for an exact description of Stompie's injuries he said "He was quite soft on one side of the head and being beaten so he couldn't see out of his eyes and had been picked up and dropped on the floor so that he couldn't walk" is that what you told the meeting?

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct.

MR PIGOU: So from the last time that we have had evidence led here by Council for Mr Richardson that Jerry Richardson actually walked out of the Mandela's household with a certain slash to the veld where he subsequently met his death. Now are you saying from the time that you saw Mr Stompie Sepei that he couldn't walk, he was in a condition where he couldn't have walked?

<UNKNOWN>: No answer on tape.

MR PIGOU: Why didn't you tell the meeting that you had witnessed Stompie Sepei being stabbed by Mrs Mandela?

<UNKNOWN>: I was scared of Winnie.

MR PIGOU: Who asked you to attend that meeting?

<UNKNOWN>: Winnie had sent me to that meeting.

MR PIGOU: You were asked where Stompie went, I am just carrying on with the record here and you said that you didn't know when you came back to the house Stompie was missing. Then asked whether you thought Stompie was dead you answered "Yes". Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct.

MR PIGOU: Could you tell us why if you were afraid of Mrs Mandela you had actually said something which would have prompted an investigation perhaps by people thereby saying that Stompie was dead?

<UNKNOWN>: I wasn't asked as to who had killed Stompie, had they asked me I would have told them.

MR PIGOU: Mrs Mandela in her evidence before the Commission in the Section 29 Hearing has said on Page 86 of the 2nd Transcript as you read back from Page 85 to 86 having being asked by Mr Vally whether she participated in the assault, this Mr Tobisa Monogasi had had implicated her in these that she said that this was not true and that she had not participated and similarly when asked whether, what her response was to your allegation she also responded that that wasn't the case. Is it . . . (indistinct) that Mrs Mandela was present during assaults?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, my evidence remains the same.

MR PIGOU: Could you tell me whether you, before the meeting on the 16th January in Dobsonville whether you had met with any of the so-called Mandela Crisis Committee?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, that is correct.

MR PIGOU: And what happened when you met members of the Mandela Crisis Committee, did you speak with them and what did you tell them?

<UNKNOWN>: I don't remember.

MR PIGOU: Perhaps I can refresh your memory, we have a document here and just for the record I will point out that during the course of the In Camera Hearing Mrs Mandela referred to this document as being a stratcom document, this is a memorandum from the Mandela Crisis Committee to Comrade President O.R. I am going to refer to the document anyway

UNKNOWN: Just before you do that can I ask just how much longer you are going to be because we are running out of time and there are other people who must have the right to cross-examine.

MR PIGOU: I will finish by twenty past, if my watch says thirteen past, by twenty past.

UNKNOWN: That is fine and then could you also try and I don't want to tell you your job but could you have shorter questions, it is very difficult this late stage for the witness or for any of us to try and hold all of it in our minds so could you be short, sharp and crisp, please.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. This is what is written in this document which we believe was sent to, may have been sent to President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo, when we interviewed Katiza Cebukhulu he came across as a person who understood no language other than Zulu. Somewhere along the way we gained an impression that he is a maverick, this prompted us to concentrate on additional issues, we broken, consequently we established the following from him that both Gabriel and Thabisa were heavily assaulted. Stompie and Kenny were also assaulted that he (Katiza) was instructed to contribute in assaulting the four, he was not himself assaulted, he believed that Kenny had escaped but he suspected that Stompie was dead".
 Is that an accurate reflection of what you told members of the Mandela Crisis Committee?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, I think I said that.

MR PIGOU: They also say you were running away from Hammersdale and where you were working with CR Swart Security Branch which I believe is a Security Branch offices in Durban, and he maintains that he did this because of poverty, he was according to him rejected by both the UDF and Inkatha. He reckons both organisations were after him and therefore he decided to leave the area. Is that also what you told, did you explain the circumstances of you leaving Hammersdale.

<UNKNOWN>: No.

MR PIGOU: You were arrested in, or perhaps before that, on the 27th, 26th of January 1989, you have said that you were, you went to Attorney Krish Naidoo to lay a charge against Rev. Paul Verryn for indecent assault, you have said that Winnie Mandela prompted this and she has responded in her Section 29 In Camera Hearing, she can't recollect that, I am not going to give you the quote so that we can save time of where that is I hope you will accept what I am saying, Do you recall exactly what happened Mr Cebukhulu, did Mrs Mandela instruct Krish Naidoo to take you to the police station?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, she said it, I duly went to the police station, she called Krish Naidoo at night because we had gone to a doctor earlier on, that is Dr Asvat, she wanted some confirmation for me to present to the police that to the effect that Paul had sodomised me or assaulted me indecently and the police asked me as to what was wrong, I said that Paul had slept with me and the police just laughed it off, they said they do not believe my story.
 I was asked as to where I stayed and Winnie always told me or she told me in an early stage that I should not give her address under any circumstances when confronted. I went back to the police and the police requested some confirmation to the affect that I have been indecently assaulted. 
 I went back to the house and told Winnie and . . .