Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, with respect, if one has a look what he says on page 23, on page 24, particularly 10(b)
"Your justification for regarding such acts, omissions and/or offences, associated with a political objective ..."
which is the other heading, which he has to answer.  And 		"Were they acts or ommissions or offences committed in the execution ..."
etc.   And on page 26 that he did it on behalf of the Conservative Party. An objective is; what do you want to achieve?  And he says in E5 that that was one of the objectives, and if you have a look, although it is a matter of interpretation, and I will agree that it is capable of that interpretation, but if we have a look at the heading of E5 - E11, he says the objectives of the attack; what I wanted to achieve by this attack, and one of the enquiries that this Committee has to make, what was it that the person was hoping to achieve. It is in that sense that objective is  ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I see that, I don't want to let us get entangled into things, but all I can say to you is that the heading that you are referring to on E11 is simply the objectives of the attack.  It doesn't say the political objectives of the attack.  Whereas in the application form we talk of political objectives.

GEORGE BIZOS: I concede the point, Mr ... Did you consider the murder a political act or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you consider the murder you committed a political act or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, a total political act.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you.
	Did you consider that that political act would gain one or other of your objectives?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I considered that would have gained the whole idea, the whole motive behind this thing, in every respect.

GEORGE BIZOS: One of your objectives to wake up the Afrikaner leaders?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But there are other objectives as well.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's deal with this one.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will deal with the others.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, right, ja, okay, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I want to ask you this - I am sorry I didn't realise that we had gone past the - the interruption with the video thing has put my feeling of time out of place.

CHAIRPERSON: Has taken up time.  Yes.  We will take the usual adjournment and resume within an hour.  What is the time now?  Quarter past one.  We will resume at quarter past two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under affirmation).

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Mr Derby-Lewis, when you heard of Mr Chris Hani's death, you told us that you went and had some coffee and you and your wife went shopping.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: We had finished, we had actually finished tea, Mr Chairman, and we then went shopping, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You went shopping. Now did you phone any of the rightwing leaders that you referred to in paragraph 5 of E11 on Saturday or on Sunday?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or on Monday?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: But now if you spoke the truth when you wrote paragraph 5, one would have expected you to get to the phone immediately or use couriers or use whatever means could you communicate with the leaders of the right, to say fellow Afrikaners, leaders of the Afrikaner people, this is the moment, anti-Christ is dead, let's do what we have to do.  Did you phone anybody to tell them that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Not at that stage.  Not at that stage, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you couldn't have done it from prison presumably, so we can assume that the purpose for which you did it in order to bring about unity among the Afrikaner leaders, to start a counter-revolution, you allowed the opportunity to slip by.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's not correct, Mr Chairman.  In fact, I waited to see whether it would have had the desired effect, before committing myself to going to the caucus and then explaining to them what I had done, my motivation and asking them to join me in the action.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, can I just clarify, please.  Mr Bizos asked you about that day or the next day or Monday or Tuesday, did you in fact make contact with anyone before you were arrested on the Saturday?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.  Sorry, maybe I should qualify that. I was contacted by the chief spokesman, regarding the issuing of a statement and so on.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I didn't initiate any contact, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: The purpose of committing murder was for chaos to result, so that the White leaders of Afrikanerdom could seize the opportunity to have a counter-revolution.  Why did you allow that opportunity to slip by?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As I have stated Mr Chairman, I had been caught unawares because in my terms the assassination was not to occur on the Easter weekend.  And although, Walus - Kuba had an 'nth degree of independence, when we discussed it I suggested to him that it do not happen then.

JUDGE WILSON: But I can understand that on the Saturday or the Sunday, but surely by the Monday you could have been making contact?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I was still trying - let me explain, Mr Chairman, I was really in a state of shock, as a result of the occurrence, because as I explained, it was not something which one does lightly.  And as a result of that, I was totally demobilised at that stage - I was totally demotivated.  I was in the situation where I sort of was standing back and waiting for something to happen and I didn't know what.

GEORGE BIZOS: You knew, did you not, from newspaper reports on the Sunday and on Monday, that what you partly helped to happen, for people to go berserk, was in fact happening.  Did you not know that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you not know that the leadership of Mr Nelson Mandela, Mr Tokyo Sexwale, Mr Mbeki and others for calm and not to allow themselves to be provoked by a senseless act of murder to derail the negotiation process was being made.  Did you realise that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: All the more reason for you to say to your fellow Afrikaner leaders, with whom you claimed such a special relationship, this is the time, awake, let us take over!

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, there was no haste in that regard.

GEORGE BIZOS: There was no?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: There was no haste in that regard.  Haste.

GEORGE BIZOS: There was no haste?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's right, because there was nothing to connect me to the assassination.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis, have you lost touch with reality, Sir?  The question is directed to that you wanted to achieve an objective to bring chaos to the country, to unite the White leaders, so that they can - your counter-revolution could succeed and you sit there Saturday, Sunday, Monday and you do nothing.  Isn't that inconsistent with your claimed objective, that you wanted chaos to take place and for your likes to move into the gap in order to take the country over?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You did nothing?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did nothing, Mr Chairman.  I waiting for, as I said, for an opportune moment.

JUDGE WILSON: You said there was nothing to tie you to the killing.  I find that a little difficult to understand.  You had planned the killing with Mr Walus, who had been arrested a matter of a few minutes after the killing.  You had supplied him with the list of addresses so he could find the place.  You had supplied him with the gun that he had used.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Wasn't there an awful lot to tie you to the killing, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, no, there was no evidence of that. Although I had done that.

JUDGE WILSON: And that Mr Walus told the police yes, Mr Derby-Lewis told me to, he gave me the gun.