Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR WILLS: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Moloi, do you have any questions?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Hlongwane, you stated that at a stage M Z placed you in hiding at the camp for a period of time, how long was that?

MR HLONGWANE: I would like the Committee member to explain the camp that he's talking about.

MR MOLOI: I refer here to your paragraph section of your affidavit referring to hiding somewhere, and you stated you were taken there by M Z Khumalo and left there for some time and that Lalelane, his son, was also providing you with food and so on.

MR HLONGWANE: I understand what you're talking about now.

MR MOLOI: Yes, how long did you stay there?

MR HLONGWANE: Although I cannot be precise because I stayed for quite a while at that camp.  I cannot be sure how long it was but it was quite long.

MR MOLOI: Do we talk here about the question of weeks, months or how long?

MR HLONGWANE: It's not weeks, I think it could have been a year or even two.

MR MOLOI: And then at a stage you were a fugitive from Justice, avoiding arrest by the Empangeni Police?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I was eventually arrested by the Special Branch from Durban.

MR MOLOI: And subsequent to your being taken away and hidden at that camp, you were again deployed and committed some murders, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is true but I was in a tent, not a camp.

MR MOLOI: Yes.  But thereafter you continued to kill and carried out your instructions?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOI: And you also went then to Mandeni and stayed there and continued with this course of killing?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not stay at Mandeni but I would be fetched from the tent if I was required for certain activities and then I would return to my tent thereafter.

MR MOLOI: So you never stayed in Mandeni itself, is that I understand you?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not stay at Mandeni but I did have friends that I would visit.  I never really had a place of my own at Mandeni.

MR MOLOI: Now these incidents that followed upon your being taken to that camp up to the stage of your arrest were committed whilst you were staying in that tent and just moving out and coming back to that tent?

MR HLONGWANE: I would leave the tent, commit those activities and then return to the tent unless maybe if I'd gone out to see my girlfriends, but my area or rather my place where I stayed was the tent.

MR MOLOI: And the Empangeni Police never came to know about your movements?

MR HLONGWANE: The police did not know about my movements but those who were in contact with M Z Khumalo knew about me whereabouts.  M Z would contact the Special Branch and tell them about my whereabouts but I would not be arrested.  So those police knew where I was.
	To just explain a bit about Mandeni, there is Sundumbili belonging to the IFP or the ZP and the SAP exists at Noone(?).  M Z had contacts within this area and then I would be told of what was happening.  Now police ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down.

INTERPRETER: The applicant was saying that his movements were known by every policeman, the Noone and Sundumbili area, even Mr Zama himself.  I would like to explain this matter further.
	We worked for these people and if the Commission can allow me I will explain something about a certain boy ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down.  Please, please, be quiet.
	If the Interpreter could just tell us what was said, we couldn't hear over the din.

INTERPRETER: Certainly.  The applicant was expressing the view that the people who were in charge knew of their activities and in fact they had sent them on these activities and their distress today that those very same people have deserted them and come here and they have the audacity as that shown by Mr Zama, to come here and intimidate them in this fashion.
	He also expressed the view that they are not intimidated by people like Mr Zama, they are prepared to divulge all their activities that they committed at that time so that the Commission and the public will know that these people indeed were responsible for those activities. 
...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Please, please settle down, we must be able to continue.

MR MOLOI: I am finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moloi.  Mr Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one Mr Chairman flowing from the questions asked by our colleague Moloi.
	You said that whilst you were placed in this tent you were fetched from time to time to continue with these activities or operations to put them in your ...[indistinct]

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is what I explained.

ADV MOTATA: I want just to know from you, who fetched you, do you know the people who came when you were required to undertake an operation that you should go there and who brought you back after completion of the operation?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, it was Mandeni officials, people like Bongani Gadebe, Shakes Nhlongo and Chief Mataba himself.  Those are the leaders who assisted me and they would transport me if I was required to carry out  activities.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Hlongwane.
	Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motata.  Mrs Khampepe, do you have any questions?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have two questions for Mr Hlongwane.
	Mr Hlongwane, you have been a very loyal and committed soldier for your organisation, as you have stated in your evidence and because of your loyalty you were given a plethora of orders to execute, which you executed quite flawlessly as you have stated.  Did you believe that when persons gave you orders to execute, those authority to give those orders?  That is my first question.

MR HLONGWANE: I would like to explain to the Committee that I did not believe but because there was collaboration between the IFP and the National Party we committed these crimes without worrying, not because we felt that these were acceptable activities.
	M Z Khumalo worked closely with the SAP so that when we committed crimes we would do this without worrying.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think Mr Hlongwane, the question asked by Mrs Khampepe is that you received orders from a number of people, did you believe that those people who issued those orders to you had the authority and the power to give you those orders?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they did have authority.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You received a series of instructions from one, Bongani Gadebe for instance.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How old was Mr Gadebe?

MR HLONGWANE: He is quite an old person, he's quite old.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he attending school at Tugela High School at the time he gave you orders to execute?

MR HLONGWANE: No, he was not a student there but I think his children or other people's children  reported to him.  He worked as a truck driver.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now when he gave you instructions to eliminate people - I think you were given instructions to eliminate a student at Tugela High School, you were also given instructions by Mr Gadebe to eliminate the Majenga family.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you believe that Mr Gadebe had the necessary authority to give you such instructions?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I strongly believed this because even Dalaxolo will say that Gadebe was a trustworthy man.  Dalaxolo gave me the assurance that Gadebe was a trustworthy man.   Before we had arrived at the area, Gadebe was responsible for the killing of the people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So were you advised by Mr Luthule to accept instructions from Mr Gadebe?

MR HLONGWANE: The person who was closest to me was M Z Khumalo because I was no longer close to Madlanduna.  The person that I worked directly with was M Z Khumalo.  At that time I was very close to M Z and I would tell him of my activities and he would recommend me highly and congratulate me.