Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

MS COLLETT: Yes but Mr Chairman, with respect, the reason they advanced for collecting the officers was because they wanted to show a unified front to Gqozo.  Now if that was the case, why (i) did they collect only certain officers, (ii) did they wait until 2 o'clock in the morning to collect some officers, (iii) did they submit those officers to humiliation amongst other things, they kept Nqoya's wife and child there the entire night, what was the purpose of that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS COLLETT: There was no purpose, I do not concede by any means that they had a political objective but I'm saying that should this Committee find that they did by virtue of the fact that they sang freedom songs and whatever, I'm saying that there's no justification for the criminal offences that they committed, none at all, because on their own version the reasons that they wanted those persons there was to show a unified front.  If that was the case then the unified front that the continued to show until the next morning would have been having those officers in the hall drinking tea.  I don't know, singing freedom songs, dancing, throwing a party, whatever.  But to subject them to lack of freedom of movement, an invasion of their privacy, deprivation of their dignity, all the violations which were entrenched in the then Ciskei
constitution in any event and in the interim constitution was nothing tantamount to criminal violations.  There's no political justification for that.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the whole purpose of an amnesty application?

MS COLLETT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you committed a crime or a delict?

MS COLLETT: But there could have been no political justification for them at that stage, no political justification.  The situation is, Mr Chairman, with respect, that a simple phone call to Pik Botha's office could have confirmed anything.  Did anybody attempt to do that?  No, nobody attempted it, no evidence to say that they tried to find out with any certainty that Gqozo had resigned or hadn't resigned and Mr Chairman, I would say that that's indicative of the fact that this meeting had absolutely nothing to do with politics.  The singing of freedom songs and church songs was simply a method to while away the time.  The bottom line here which is strengthened ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: To while away the time for what?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, maybe it would be instructive for the Committee to have a look at what was actually said on that 8 o'clock news broadcast or the press release that was given after Brigadier Gqozo resigned.  There appears to have been some agreement although this is not evidence before this Committee, there appears to have been an agreement between Kempton Park and Brigadier Gqozo as to why he stood down.  Yes, maybe the fact that he'd lost the support of the military and maybe the fact that the police looked like they were rowdy and staging an unsavoury gathering added to it, but it certainly didn't cause it.  There were negotiations afoot all the time between Brigadier Gqozo and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the then Pik Botha, regarding his standing down, his handing over the reins to the interim Committee.  It didn't just happen overnight, there had been ongoing communications about this.  It is coincidence that it happened on that evening.  Maybe it was the final straw that broke the camel's back, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't that good enough?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, I submit not and I submit that this Committee in coming to a decision will have to have a look at the press release regarding why Brigadier Gqozo stood down on that evening.  I don't have a copy thereof but there were various reasons that were given but the gist of it is as I understood it that there had been an agreement that had been reached between the then South African Government and Brigadier Gqozo regarding the handing over to the interim committee, but the fact of the matter at the end of the day Mr Chairman is the actions of the policemen the next morning when they went to the stadium, the big political revelation that they wanted in simply running off to get their money, clinches that for the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what else do you expect?  They called upon, they say that your money is at the college, you should collect your money at the college, now what must they do?

MS COLLETT: But the fact of the matter is they wanted the confirmation that Brigadier Gqozo had stood down.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the evidence is that he never turned up.

MS COLLETT: The fact of the matter is to this day they still haven't received that confirmation so why do they believe it?  Because they've heard it on the TV, they've heard it through the media, that's why they believe it.  The very way they'd heard it that evening.  Mr Chairman, I submit that there's sufficient evidence before this Committee to show that on that evening there was no political motive.  Yes, they were probably happy as was two thirds of Ciskei, I'm sure, that Brigadier Gqozo had stood down but the point of this meeting was, the point of this meeting was "where's our money and what's our position in the future" and they would ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And none of them was interested in getting rid of Mr Gqozo?

MS COLLETT: I'm not saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: They were all happy to have him governing?

MS COLLETT: As I say, two thirds if not more of Ciskei was interested in Brigadier Gqozo standing down but just because we sing freedom songs and we say "down with Gqozo" did that necessarily mean that we've got this political objective to remove him?  I submit that you have to go a little further than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's their evidence.

MS COLLETT: We have to go a little further than that.  That is not quite the evidence, not quite the evidence.  They sang those songs ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what Mr Mfene tells us, he tells us that that was the objective.

MS COLLETT: Yes.  That was the objective according to him but I submit that there's no objective there.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you suggesting that we must reject his evidence?

MS COLLETT: I'm suggesting, Mr Chairman, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes on what grounds?

MS COLLETT: That the evidence of Mr Mfene should be viewed against the evidence of the other applicants.  Nobody really knew what was going on.  Everybody joined in the freedom songs because they enjoyed singing them.  Then we've got the evidence of Toto Nshikashe who quite clearly says, Nshikashe's words were "we wanted to sit there and fight for our demands of money."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well what's wrong with that?

MS COLLETT: Nothing, but that just shows that there's probably an alternative to a political objective.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I mean this was, Ms Collett, I mean really, we've got to be realistic.  This was not a matter where there was only one complaint, this was in fact that is probably why there was this opposition to Brigadier Gqozo at that time because people had all these complaints and is it surprising that at a gathering of that nature all of these things would have happened?

MS COLLETT: Whilst I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that they shouldn't have raised their other concerns and complaints about the money, about the pensions, about promotions, everything?