Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MR VISSER: Will you please turn to page 145 of bundle A in front of you.  Look at the bottom of that page please.  Do you see your signature there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I see my signature.

MR VISSER: Do you see the date there, the 5th of June 1997 and Bloemfontein?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I see that, yes.

MR VISSER: Well what is - surely that's an application form which you signed, not so?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true but it's not a new one.

MR VISSER: And attached to that application form was Annexure A from page 146 to 148?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, I'm sorry to interrupt you but I just want to clarify this.  Was - do you have a copy of his - if there's any - previous completed application form?  Can I have a look it if you don't mind please?

MR VISSER: Certainly Mr Chairman, I kept my original one - we don't know why it hasn't been included in the bundle but if you'll forgive the marks which I made on it - I didn't make notes but marks I did, I will certainly hand it up to you.  That's the one dated the 8th of November, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, may I suggest that you keep the document, I'm not going to use it probably throughout my cross-examination and you could possibly have a copy made at your convenience Mr Chairman.
	Mr Motsamai, was what you said in all those documents which I put to you just now, the truth?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is the truth.

MR VISSER: Now, is it correct that in March of this year you went to Pretoria?  You're laughing Mr Motsamai, what was it that was funny?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I never laughed, I'm not laughing.

MR VISSER: I see.  Did you go to Pretoria in March this year?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What did you go and do there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would explain to the Committee, it is this way.  Sergeant Mamome ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I'm not asking you for an explanation, I just want you to ask you ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: May the witness not be badgered, he's asked a question - he asked him why he went and the witness is telling him, he's telling him why he went there.

CHAIRPERSON: You asked why he went there Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: I withdraw Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: You may proceed.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was taken by force or by deception to make a statement in Pretoria.

MR VISSER: Who forced you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He used tricks, that is Sergeant Mamome, Lieutenant Erasmus who is now Superintendent Erasmus.

MR VISSER: What were the tricks they used?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They said to us - they called us all, that's myself, that's is Mr Tsoametsi, Warrant Officer Mbanjani and that is Mtyala, we went to the office - to the Superintendent's office, that is Erasmus.  When we arrived there Superintendent Erasmus said to us he has organised a lawyer for us who is going to speak on our behalf - in what or about what, he didn't explain but in my mind I thought that the lawyer would speak for us because I've already requested amnesty or applied for amnesty.
	He made means that we should go - we left here with a Ford Husky.  All of us - all of those people I mentioned were in that husky.  The person who collected us from our homes is Sergeant Mamome.  He knew where we were going and who is that lawyer but he denied to tell us - to explain to us who is that lawyer.  
	We arrived at your offices, we found the person sitting on your left hand side.  He was together with the officers I've mentioned, that is Coetzee, Shaw and Erasmus.  We sat around the table - nobody knew but Mamome knew - had a knowledge about what was going to happen.  Warrant Office Mbanjani and other people didn't have a knowledge of what was going to happen.
	That person stood up and explained to us that we've come here because of Nelson Ngo's case or cases.  I don't know the person who was sitting on the left hand side of Mr Visser.

CHAIRPERSON: It's his instructing attorney.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Wagner all right?  Mr Wagner explained to you that you were there because of Mr Ngo.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is correct.  It shows that those people have already discussed, that is himself and Colonel Coetzee and Erasmus and together with Lieutenant Shaw.  As to whether they discussed what about the case, I don't know but the way he explained to us is that he wants us to be united to fight against this case and try by all means that we should speak with one voice, that is denial of what appeared in those papers which were written by Ngo.
	He himself said again that there are cases which he worked of members of the security branch where people ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can you slow down please and sorry, remember people must interpret Mr Motsamai.  When I interrupted you, you were saying that you say that there are cases - there were other cases in which - go on.