Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

ADV VISSER: You see the evidence will be that as a result of this information the South African Defence Force was alerted and their assistance was required, and that they actually only came in, apart from previous radio assistance, they only came in after the 8th of July to assist the Security Branch to arrest the six people who were coming in with arms, would that be correct do you think, according to your own knowledge?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know that.  We used to work our missions in secret.  I was just instructed as to how I should pass the information.

ADV VISSER: Alright.  Let's get to the incident itself.  You picked up the people, they got into the combi, no I am sorry, let me start just before that.
	Is it correct that the exercise which you had
which you had on the ground where you were told how to run away, was on the morning of the incident?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

ADV VISSER: Yes, because you said it was the previous day, but perhaps you were just mistaken.  On that morning while you were doing this exercise, do you remember that the combi did not have a window in the right rear?  The window was taken out.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, the car didn't have a window at the back on the right-hand side.

ADV VISSER: Do you know why that was so?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I wouldn't know, because I was not using the car, that car was used by other people.

ADV VISSER: Didn't you know that ...

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I only realised while I was driving that it didn't have a window pane at the back.

ADV VISSER: Don't you know of the planning that a member of the South African Defence Force was supposed to throw a tear-gas grenade into the combi through that window, when you stopped the combi in the drift?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I learnt that for the first time.

ADV VISSER: Nobody told you that.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Nobody told me anything in that regard.

ADV VISSER: When you transported these people, they had F1 hand-grenades in their hands.  Is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I explained, which means I should go back again and explain that the one who was next to me in front, told them that they should produce their potatoes.  They gave me a potato, then when I looked back I saw that they had the F1 grenade.

ADV VISSER: All right. What do you think  ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Was it apples; was it apples or potatoes?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I am talking about apples, not potatoes, apples, not potatoes.  That is a green apple.

ADV VISSER: And what do you think did they intend to do, why did they take them out, do you think?  You are a policeman.  Tell the Committee members.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know why they produced those things.
I don't want to lie.

ADV VISSER: Oh, come, Mr Sehlwana, please.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know how to put it, that when they said that they should produce apples and they produce F1 grenades, then they give me the real apple. I thought maybe they were trying to protect themselves. I am telling you about what happened, that they said produce your apples and then I saw the F1 grenade.

ADV VISSER: Protect themselves again whom or against what?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They knew, I didn't know anything about that.  So those are the people who knew why they produced those F1 grenades. I wouldn't know what was in their hearts, and that the fact that I was supposed to leave the car, they didn't know anything about our plan.  So I don't know why they did produce those hand-grenades.

ADV VISSER: Didn't it occur to you that they produced those grenades to be ready in case they were confronted by the police?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: They produced those grenades and I was given an apple. That is according to my knowledge.

ADV VISSER: But, Mr Sehlwana, surely you must have drawn some inference from the fact that they are taking out live grenades and holding it at the ready.  What did they do that for?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know, Sir. I didn't create any suspicion and there was nothing which I had on my person which may create suspicion.

ADV VISSER: Yes.  Yes, let me put it to you this way.  That is precisely the contingency for which the planning was done; with the window that was taken out, for a hand-grenade to be thrown in, because - tear-gas to be thrown in, because it was foreseen that they might resist and that is the reason why the arrest was not allowed, why you were not allowed to go into a built-up area and why the arrest was attempted at an area where there weren't people around.  This was foreseen, they were going to resist.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know how to answer your question.

ADV VISSER: Yes, all right.  You were told on that morning where you had to stop and where you had to run to. Is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's true.

ADV VISSER: You had to run to a hole which was made in the game fence on the right-hand side as you were travelling.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: There is a spruit or a river where I was supposed to go through that river, not that I should go back to, behind the car.  I was supposed to go straight following the direction of the river.

ADV VISSER: I see. Why do you think you were supposed to run away?  Why did they exercise that that morning, for you to run away? Wasn't it to protect you in case the people in the car started firing?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That is a demonstration as according to yesterday's plan that I should run.  But when you asked me that why I was told to run, during our demonstration the previous day, I was instructed that I should run, following the direction of the river.

ADV VISSER: Wasn't in order to protect your live that this was exercised?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I take it that way.

ADV VISSER: Yes. Now let's come to the incident.  You approached and you stopped - you approached and you stopped in the river bed. Is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I started on the river edge, next to the cement block, I stopped on the cement block next to the river.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Visser, can I just ask something.  Mr Visser asked you whether you were not told to run in the direction of the fence, to your right.  And your answer, which I don't quite comprehend, was that you were instructed to run alongside the river, in the same direction as the river.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I am standing next to the river. It is not a big river.  I was told that I should run with the direction of that river or the spruit.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can't cross the river and then run, going in the same direction with it at the same time.  Surely if you stopped, because I assume you were to cross this, you stopped on the bridge, I assume.  And if you stopped on the bridge, which was crossing this river, and then to run to your right in the direction of the river, then it would mean you are running into the fence which was to your right.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: This river was without water.  The way I was instructed is that when I alight on my right-hand side, I should go straight.  It was just near that bridge. I should fall on the sand, then from there I should run on the sand.  During that time there was confusion, because instead of falling down on the sand I ran along the combi, then somebody calls me, then I took on that direction which I was instructed.

CHAIRPERSON: You actually walked on the river bed or ran on the river bed?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I was running just on the river bank, on that, then I ran along the combi, then I fell on the sand, then I took, I ran on the direction of the river.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser, sorry that I interrupted you. I thought I would understand.