Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Now which led to the British, settlers, the principal of the settlers to tell their agents in the occupied Azania to unite so that they can isolate the African indigenous people away from their natural right which is the ownership of the land and once they finished that then they knew that now they can say you can pass a law and in 1913 a land act was passed and by that time, men like Sol Plaaitjie, decided to form an organisation which was the ANC and that was the high tide of the conflict but still the African people were peaceful.  They were not perturbed, they were perturbed of course but still they forgave them for the actions of that they did, for the embarrassment that they did to my leader Bambata in the Bambata rebellion.  Doing what in Vryburg today they were doing, some were killing the leaders in public.  Now to me all that, what, the dates of killing the African people which were mentioned yesterday, all those things were coming into my mind and which justify, justifying the actions which were like that one of Golf Club.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for the record Mr Chairman, the question of arms which was interested in, I request the Committee, the questions the arms, that what happened to the arms will be subject to another hearing because to link the arms, Mr Chairman, to another.  I won't like to pursue it, I want to pursue it but I know that it's linked to another application, Mr Chairman, to one of the hearings which are going to come before this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we going to hear one of these ones next week?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman so the arms that were used in the Golf Club, Mr Chairman, I won't like the Committee to pursue that point because it will be getting to another application if we go to that point.  Just a request, Mr Chairman, just for the record.  Also myself, I would like to pursue it but I would like it because it has other implications.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, what prejudice will there be if he pursues it now?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think we are concerned with the Golf Club now immediately we are asked about the weapons, definitely we'll go indirectly what happened thereafter, they were used in another operation after the incident of the Golf Club that is why I was...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying not so much prejudice as that it is totally irrelevant that he admits he took possession of the weapons which he knew had been used in the Golf Club incident and we stopped there?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And the relevance - we then hear him or we'd hear evidence next week as to what happened later but it's not relevant to the present enquiry?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may we just hear which matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: The "Yellowood" is also an applicant Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Okay, thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.
	Now, Mr Chairman, I don't think I have any other things to say, I'll hand over the applicant to the Committee.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: As a school teacher it will perhaps be a new experience for him to have to answer questions.

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: No, actually, I'm not that type of a teacher that
makes the classroom situation to be one sided, I'm the type of teach that makes the students to contribute their capability to be heard so I'm - it's not new to me, will not be new to me.

MR PRIOR: Mr Ntintili, I listened carefully to what you said a short while ago, you gave a long explanation as to why you felt justified in accepting what had happened at Golf Club and why you felt justified in giving the assistance that you gave to the unit that perpetrated the attack at the Golf Club.  Do I understand you then to say that for those reasons you felt that was sufficient justification for the killing of at least four innocent people, people that had nothing to do with the military, were simply there - quite possibly at the wrong place at the wrong time - are you saying that that justified the killing of those four people?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: I don't know whether the concept of innocence is placed to the right people in the case of the South African situation when you are talking about the Euro-sector people here.

MR PRIOR: Let's just not go into the historical, - no no, please - my questions very simple, you regard what you told us in that long statement that you made as sufficient justification for the killing of the deceased in the King William's Town Golf Club matter and you've heard what was put to the witnesses yesterday, those people in that dining room there as a part of a wine tasting club having their Christmas party, in the light of that, are you saying that there was, that was sufficient justification for their deaths?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Ja, I think if you refer to paragraph 8 of page 57.

MR PRIOR: Alright, from that paragraph 8: "one settler, on bullet" that's what you?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Ja.

MR PRIOR: You say that was in line with that policy or that slogan?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Exactly, by that time.

MR PRIOR: Obviously you don't Mr and Mrs Davis, who they were?  We heard submission put to Mr Xundu yesterday from the son that they were people that didn't vote in the election, they certainly weren't supporters of the Apartheid Government.

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Ja, actually, I happened to know his father, if it was the one who was working for the Ciskei Government as a doctor, I don't know whether he is.  If that is the one, he's coming from the so called, from the former Rhodesia from the Smith Regime and the reason to come here is because he's one of the people who are not accepting the African majority rule and anyone who does not want to accept the African majority rule, whether it goes down then is going to get..[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Yes?  Get what?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Is going to get the resistance, is going to get the anger of the African people because this revolution is not an isolated revolution from the revolution of the African people continentally.  So for him to come down to Azania it was not excusing him from being  colonized in Africa.  Hence he was coming into Azania, he was coming because the colonial regime, the settler regime was still in power here so he wanted to continue enjoying the privileges are being a colonial settler in Africa now in Azania because Zimbabwe was free.

MR PRIOR: The policy one settler, one bullet was to understand from that and you can correct me if I'm mistaken, was purely along racial lines?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Excuse me?  What?

MR PRIOR: The slogan one bullet one settler, one settler one bullet was purely along racial lines.  It was a call that white people should be killed?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Is paragraph 8 tells you that?

MR PRIOR: Please Mr Ntintili, you are an educator you are a teacher, the question is very simple, was the call or the slogan, one settler, one bullet - it was a call white people -is that correct?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Excuse me, can you refer yourself to number 3 of paragraph 8 where it is said that there's such to PAC had nothing to do with colour but one does physically in otherwise in promoting the criminal inhuman practices of Apartheid system qualified him as a settler within the context of the Azanian national revolution.

MR PRIOR: I just want to ask you this finally.  White people who were born in South Africa, were they not African?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Who?

MR PRIOR: White people who were born in this country were they not also part of Africa?