Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-02-09

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the matter of Mthembui, which is a part-heard matter before this Committee, my information this morning was that Mr Mthembui was arrested in Eshowe District on Thursday last by members of the Murder and Robbery Squad.
	We have been unable in this short space of time to find out exactly where he is, it is unlikely that he would be here today.  In the circumstances of the matter, I would ask that the matter simply be adjourned in absentia for a date to be arranged with his representative.  Mr Wills unfortunately was here, he left to go back to his office and won't be able to get back to the hearing within the next 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: He is aware of this act that is going to be adjourned?

MR PRIOR: We've sent a message to him, to his office, that it will be adjourned.

CHAIRPERSON: The next matter?  This matter will be adjourned in absentia to a date to be arranged.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The next matter is the part-heard matter of Gumbi and Zuma.  All the parties are present and Ms Judith Dlamini is present to be cross-examined.

JUDITH DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Klerk, at the last hearing you requested an adjournment for you to look at certain documents and to decide whether you wanted to ask any more questions.
	I am told you have a few questions to ask.

MR DE KLERK: That is correct Mr Chairman.   Ma'am, I just want to get clarity.  Is it correct that you also testified during the criminal trial which the applicants were convicted?

JUDITH DLAMINI: Will you please repeat your question.

MR DE KLERK: Can you just tell me, is it correct that you testified during the criminal trial where the applicants were originally convicted?

INTERPRETER: The witness doesn't seem to hear anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that question?

JUDITH DLAMINI: I would like the question to be repeated.

MR DE KLERK: I will repeat the question.  Is it correct that you testified during the criminal trial where the applicants were convicted?

JUDITH DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR DE KLERK: The reason why I am asking, it seems according to the record that I received from the High Court register, that the person that testified during that trial's names are the following:  Excuse me Your Worship, Zokhile Judith Dlamini.  Is that you?

JUDITH DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR DE KLERK: You testified previously in this matter that you saw a van, it seems that you saw a police van and that there were camouflage clad occupants, is that correct, in that van?

JUDITH DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you mention that during this application for amnesty?

JUDITH DLAMINI: I mentioned that because I saw the van which used to come by taking people.

MR DE KLERK: Do you agree with me that is an important event that happened that night?

JUDITH DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR DE KLERK: Just to clarity before I ask my next question.  What did this van do, what did the people do?

JUDITH DLAMINI: I used to see the van passing by and some people will get into the van and that is all that I know.

MR DE KLERK: Who climbed into the van?  I am going to ask this straight forward, did this van assist the attackers in any way?

JUDITH DLAMINI: I didn't see people getting into the van.

MR DE KLERK: You did see people getting into the van?

JUDITH DLAMINI: I didn't say it that way, I didn't say I saw people climbing into the van.  After my mother was injured, a van used to come by to carry people.  My mother asked me to stop the van so that they could help her, but I said I can't stop the van because it is used by police.
	Nobody climbed into the car, I didn't see anybody climbing into the car.

MR DE KLERK: Was this after the attack or before the attack?

JUDITH DLAMINI: It happened after the attack, after my mother was injured.  And this car passed and she asked me to stop the car so that she could be helped, to take her to hospital.
	I said to her I can't stop the car, because I know this van, it is a police van.  Those were the camouflage police.

MR DE KLERK: The reason why I am asking you, if this is such an important event that you deem it necessary to explain to this Commission, why didn't you explain to the criminal court, the High Court, these facts?
	Because out of the record, there is no mention in your evidence during that trial?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it more important for a victim to explain what happened to her mother who was killed in the attack, what was done than it is for a witness in a criminal trial?

MR DE KLERK: Maybe the witness can explain that to me, Mr Commissioner.  Is it possible that you can just say why didn't you mention this at the criminal trial?

JUDITH DLAMINI: Isn't it now you want the truth?  At this present moment I am telling you the truth.

MR DE KLERK: Yes, and during the criminal trial, did you tell the truth?

JUDITH DLAMINI: Will you please repeat your question.

MR DE KLERK: Yes, all I want to know is just explain why didn't you say it at the criminal trial, that is all?  If it wasn't asked from you or you didn't deem it necessary, you can just explain it.

CHAIRPERSON: If it wasn't asked from her, she wouldn't have said it.  She is being led at a criminal trial isn't she Mr De Klerk?

MR DE KLERK: I will not take that point further Mr Commissioner.  I've got no further questions.

MR DE KLERK: .

MR RETHMAN: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

MR RETHMAN: .

MR PRIOR: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude the evidence in this matter?

MR RETHMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am afraid I can stay no longer, I should have been in hospital 20 minutes ago.  I will ask parties to submit written argument.
	That concludes today's hearing, we will now adjourn until ten o'clock tomorrow?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the position is that the new matter was scheduled for Wednesday.  I have communicated with Mr Arendse who will be consulting with the applicants tomorrow morning.
	It is prepared, as soon as he had concluded that consultation, to then proceed with the matter, so we hope to try and get it on by tea.

CHAIRPERSON: I was thinking to indicate to spectators who may wish to have come.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It will not be before ten o'clock tomorrow morning.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS: .