Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said before that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And was there a committee which was communicating that or it was just a meeting of the junior officers?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: There was no committee, there was no meeting, it was just a discussion that was taking place among the junior officers and we knew the procedure and we did that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you were meeting from time to time to discuss that?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We were not meeting but we used to see one another at some times.  There is a difference between a formal meeting, there is a difference of when you meet a person somewhere and ask about something, it was just like that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So was this co-ordinated in any manner?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, it was co-ordinated by us because it did not take us time to take it into action.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You see I'm having problems.  How was this co-ordinated?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Our times of meetings in the formal meetings we were careful because we did not want to be found having a meeting as junior officers, even Popcru was underground in Ciskei.  I was also a member of Popcru at the time but I did not tell anyone that I was a member of Popcru because I knew that I would end up losing my job and go to jail or be expelled or something like that.  We were doing such things in such a way that no one would see anything or notice.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now the officers, you were not seeking any assistance from them, am I correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We used to like them very much.  There were those that we used to visit and we would go there and tell them whatever and they would say yes and as they would be coming from a group of people, they would go back again to that group, but when we were just on the other side we had only just a small number of officers.  There were officers who were feeling the pain from the senior officers and if you were complaining in such a situation, you would be threatened by some other ways.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was there any community organisation you co-ordinated this with, or you told them about your plan of action?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Popcru was an affiliate of Cosatu, the Cosatu that affiliates to ANC.  If I can explain further you will understand the fact that ANC or Popcru was a people's organisation, it was not only the police.  A police will go up to Cosatu and people know how to get to Cosatu, that chain.  I want to say to you, even the other people were blessing that action, they were not against that action.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were you communicating with any organisation or association, political?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett, any questions?

MS COLLETT: Just a few Mr Chairman.  Why were you dissatisfied that the meetings had not taken place with the commissioner?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Can you please repeat your question?

MS COLLETT: Why was it that you were dissatisfied that the meetings had not taken place with the commissioner?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The reason for our dissatisfaction is this, the police was the only group whereby their leaders were not communicating with them.  If you can go to the agricultural department, the health department, you would find that everything was being addressed by the leaders or the heads or the commissioners, but our commissioner, when he was talking to us, he was not communicating well with us.

MS COLLETT: So, it was with regard to employment grievances, is that correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I can say that is part of our grievances at the workplace and the development of the working conditions.  If you would give me an opportunity I would tell you that it was easy to just say that a certain branch or a certain unit would be developed and then we would be told to see what we would do.  There would be cars and nothing would be there and if the members were not going to work, they would be demoted or they would be reported to Brig Gqozo.  Those are the things that we wanted to meet with our commissioner.  We were very happy that he wanted to see us but he would change that.

MS COLLETT: Did you want to meet with him with regard to overthrowing than Brig Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We wanted to meet with him to tell him our grievances.  Our main aim was to unite with him, to say one thing with the commissioner when we were overthrowing Gqozo.

MS COLLETT: Please answer my question.  Did you want to tell the commissioner that you wanted to overthrow Gqozo and seek his assistance?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We didn't want to tell him, we wanted him to be part of us when we were overthrowing Gqozo.

MS COLLETT: But he was your superior, how did you think he could assist you in overthrowing Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: As our superior, he was not communicating with us.  There were different groups in the police force.  There were those who were close to Brig Gqozo together with the commissioner, so if we were going to meet with him, we wanted to be united as the police so that if Gqozo could say that he was overthrown by the police, there would be no police who would see himself as innocent.  We wanted the police to be part of that.

MS COLLETT: So is the answer to my question that you wanted the commissioner to assist you to overthrow Brig Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I said we didn't want him to help us, but we wanted him to be part of that action.

MS COLLETT: But what if he didn't want to be part of that action?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Fortunately he was there when we were taking that action.

MS COLLETT: I'm asking you, did he want to be part of that action?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He was in the hall where we called him even though we were the people who did the job.

MS COLLETT: I'll ask you the question again.  Did he want to be part of that action to overthrow Gqozo?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I wouldn't say that he wanted to be part of it, he was happy under Brig Gqozo.

MS COLLETT: Why did you need him at all?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The reason for that is that we wanted to be seen together with our commissioner, we wanted people to see that we are all united, we are saying the same thing together with our leader, our commissioner.

MS COLLETT: But you weren't united, were you?  There were people who didn't agree with overthrowing Gqozo, that were in the police force?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Can you please repeat the question?

MS COLLETT: There were people in the police force that might not have agreed with overthrowing Brig Gqozo.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I can say that police like the ones who are sitting here were not for our action but most of the police as it was known that those with lower ranks, they wanted or they were for what we were doing, they were not against it.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you that on that particular day the whole purpose of you securing the presence of the commissioner and other senior officers at the Bisho police college was so that you could air grievances about certain monetary issues in the police force.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I'm not denying or disputing that.  We wanted to talk about that and then we would be scared off.  We wanted to talk or to discuss all those issues.

MS COLLETT: I also want to ask you, in your amnesty application at 10 (b) you said that justification for what you were doing was so that your demands could be met by the Ciskei police or the government.  Do you have a copy of that document in front of you?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: What page?

MS COLLETT: 26.