Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very Deborah.  This is a different kind of a perspective in the sense that when we started we heard a researcher talking about women's stories here and there and generally research issues, but you, Deborah, you have taken us through a life of a woman which has not been told much in this country as to their levels of involvement and levels of sacrifices that women have had to make.  The story centres around you, but it also talks to the experiences of many other women.  Thank you very much.  I will ask my colleagues to ask you just a few questions aimed at clarifying your experiences.  I will start with Joyce Seroke.

MS SEROKE: Well, it is very tough for me to react to Deborah's testimony, because I was part of it, but I just want to ask a few questions.  You mentioned that it was easy to conscientise the Black warderesses and could you also show how they were trained to show their superiority of the White warderess as against the Black warderess in the same prison?

MS MATSHOBA: The best place where I could, where I will focus the example is at the Fort, because at the Fort we were able to interact with both groups.  For instance, the White warderesses were referred to as Nona and the Black warderesses were referred to as Vakashe, which means visitor.  They are visiting Johannesburg, they come from the rural areas and they had to accept that.  They call Vakashe, your name is Vakashe so and so and these ones were Nona Huistig and when Nona appeared Vakashe had to stand at attention, for instance, and Nona should pass and they had different kinds of uniforms.  The Vakashes' had a mustard, darker colour and the Nonas' had a lighter colour and they wore hats.  The Vakashes' had to wear berets and they were not supposed to wear shoes with heels, they had to wear laced up shoes, the Vakashes'.
 So, when talking to them at the Fort one would work against these, exactly these weaknesses and these immediate needs that they had.  For instance, that you need self-respect.  This is your country, you cannot be a Vakashe in your own country.  Why do you accept to be called Vakashe?  It is a job and then we would start bribing them, actually. They were underpaid and we use to get, like, good food, because we were getting visitors and bribe them.  It was very easy to talk to them and conscientise them to a point where even when the Nonas' were not there they would quickly, Eunice was very good at braiding hair and she would braid our hair and they became our friends and they would smuggle messages out.  They knew and we made them understand that we accept that they are only in this because of work, but it does not mean that they must do the dirty job for the Nonas and that is what I meant, Joyce.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Deborah, I just want to ask about, were, we know from what other prisoners have said, that often common-law prisoners were used to spy on political prisoners and it is not usually a practice that they should be kept together, but in your instance it seems that from the beginning you were not really kept in a separate place for political prisoners, but that, in fact, you often had common-law prisoners with you.  You mentioned that your experience in the Middleburg prison that, in fact, they were the ones who taught you to smuggle and to talk and that was quite a useful experience, but did you have the situation where, in fact, they were also keeping an eye on you so that they could pass that back to the Security Police?

MS MATSHOBA: No, Yasmin, actually, you see, even though I mentioned that I had contact with them, it was not physical contact.  We spoke at night, because they were there, you know.  I never saw their faces.  They actually never saw my face, I can safely say.  They do not know what I looked like, but we could talk at night.  So, spying on me would have been impossible, because I was alone.  Most of the time I was all by myself and there was virtually nothing much that they could spy on.  One only had to be very careful.  Like I say, I told them stories, you know, that were actually not the real things why I was there and that I knew that the Security Police would know, even if that woman had gone and said, no, she says she is a student at UNIZULU and she burnt the college, they would know that she is telling a lie, she is not, you know, and one only had to be careful.

YASMINE SOOKA: We do not actually have time to explore another aspect, but you know the earlier submission talked about this question of equality and, in a sense, there was an exploration of what really are we defining as gender equality, because unless we are more focused about defining it, we will not really be able to deal with some of the problems which are actually coming through, but if you could, in the next few weeks, deal with your own perspective of yourself as a Comrade used in the same way as men were and what that relationship actually was and your experiences, were they different, because you were a woman.  Did you experience that there were certain things that you were actually not allowed to do.  I think we would certainly like to capture that.  We just, unfortunately, it is another angle to the one that you have actually given us and we would certainly like to get that perspective from you as well.

MS MATSHOBA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Deborah, thank you very much.  You, also, I would like to congratulate you for really having the courage of being prepared to open the wounds.  As you said, that today you experience this process differently.  I should think you were much more in touch with yourself and you allowed yourself to be vulnerable and to weep when thinking about certain experiences of your life and I hope this is a beginning of your own healing and, also, as a person who has been leadership since your student years.  This is an opportune time for you to take a lead in assisting other women whenever opportunities avail to talk about what they went through, especially what you said, it ties up with what was said by Sheila Masote yesterday, how human rights violations of the past tended to impact on families and also the second generations.
 She spoke about her relationship with her children which also was affected by her own experiences and you touched on that as well.  That is also something which I think people, like yourselves, will have to be in the forefront in helping families to restore those essential relationships and letting children express their anger, frustrations without seeing that as an attack.  We thank you very much for coming.  
 We would now adjourn for tea.  If we can all try to be back here by ten to 11.  If, please, if you can be back here at quarter to 12.  I did not realise, quarter to 12.