Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I reported for him. He did not know. I told him that Thanduxolo says that we must wait for him at Mbashe. We went straight to Mbashe then. I reported to him from Thanduxolo.

MR BOTMA: The instruction from Thanduxolo was to meet at Mbashe, is that all he said?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: Did he mention a locality called Mbashe or did he refer to the river Mbashe?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It is only the river Mbashe that I know.

MR BOTMA: That is the question. Did he refer to: "We will meet each other at the Mbashe River," or what did he tell you?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Mbashe River he said.

MR BOTMA: And you agree with me that Mbashe River is starting somewhere up outside the boundaries of the previous Transkei running towards the sea, is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I just know the place where I was. I do not know where Mbashe River starts or ends.

MR BOTMA: Now did he ask you to meet him at the Mbashe bridge or did he just say: "I will meet you at the Mbashe"?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He stipulated the area. It is just that I have forgotten the name of the village. However not the bridge between Umtata and Nxobo.

MR BOTMA: Was there any discussion the route you were going to follow from that point towards the Mbashe River?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Since my co-accused knew this way he was aware of the route that were leading us to our meeting place. Thanduxolo would use his own route.

MR BOTMA: You see I am trying to establish from you whether this rendezvous or this point where you were supposed to meet was known to everybody. You were just told: "Meet me at the Mbashe." Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He mentioned the area because next to Mbashe there is the club Barry. There are also villages around but I have forgotten the name of those villages around.

MR BOTMA: So did he mention the locality to you or the area where you were supposed to meet?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes he did.

MR BOTMA: And was that conveyed to your co-accused by yourself or by Thanduxolo?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Thanduxolo told me and then I told my co-accused.

MR BOTMA: Now the distance from the first point, that is in other words the point where Mike was shot and the second point where Donne was finally shot, can you give the Commission an indication of this distance?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I would not be accurate but I think it is plus, minus forty or fifty kilometres. I am sorry I am not clear or I will not be accurate.

MR BOTMA: Definitely more than one kilometre only?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Maybe I was wrong if it is more than one kilometre.

MR BOTMA: You see I am asking the question because on page 10 of your application, bundle marked A, page 10. One was shot at the scene the other was shot at Mbashe River since the distance was plus, minus one kilometre from where the operation begun.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do remember what is written here. I was the one who wrote this form.

MR BOTMA: What I am driving at is that in this you are trying to bring the Amnesty Committee under the understanding that the two scenes were about one kilometre from each other. Now today we are talking about forty to fifty kilometres apart from each other. Can you explain that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I made a mistake. Anybody could make the same mistake. I admit that I must have made a mistake. I do remember that I filled in this form. I was just assuming or estimating. Anybody could make this mistake. I admit that it was a mistake.

MR BOTMA: To get clarity are you saying that the mistake is in the application not today?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I did not measure from the first place of the incident to the next. I just thought that perhaps it is this number of kilometres. I estimated. I doubt even now that it is just a kilometre.

MR BOTMA: Can you recall the clothing Donne was wearing on that day?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I forgotten perhaps if I look at the picture.

MR BOTMA: Can you recall whether she was wearing a jersey on that day, blue jersey on the way from the first point to the second point?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Maybe she was wearing it but I do not remember. Maybe I could look at the picture.

MR BOTMA: Before we go there, was it a hot or a cool day on that specific day? Can you recall that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I cannot remember. I know that it was not raining though.

MR BOTMA: Right let's just get back now this route you were following from the first point towards the second point, are you saying your co-accused he was the one doing the driving and he knew where to go? You did not give him any orders from the first scene to the second scene?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Is there a question?

MR BOTMA: Are you saying that from A to point B your co-accused he was the one doing the driving and taking the directions, you did not give him any instructions where to go to? Is that the situation, the position?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he gave instructions where to go to, he did not tell him how to get there.

MR BOTMA: What I am saying is that on the way there he was, he was, during the driving he did not tell him turn left or turn right here whatever the situation is.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He is the one who was driving because he knew the area well. I did not direct him. I was just told the name of the place where we were going that I told him. As he knew the area well he drove us there.

MR BOTMA: And for a whole distance Donne was groaning and complaining about the pain she was suffering from point A to point B?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes she was groaning.

MR BOTMA: Did you have any conversation with her on the road?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No we did not.

MR BOTMA: When you reached this point you saw Thanduxolo's van or the Toyota van parked next to the road. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: Did you park in front of him or behind him?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do not remember clearly but we got to Mbashe and Thanduxolo was already there.

MR BOTMA: What I want to know is when you approached this vehicle did you drive past the vehicle and stopped in front of the vehicle or did you stop behind the vehicle when you arrived there?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do not remember whether we parked by the side or behind his car. I cannot remember. I never knew that I was going to come to the TRC and testify in such a manner. I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it of any importance?

MR BOTMA: It is in fact important Mr Chairman with regard to a witness. Can I repeat myself. About a witness who was on the scene and who could see down at the vehicle. In other word if the truck was parked in front of the Toyota van then of course one would not have, it is possible he could not have noticed the van. That is the only reason for asking the question. But if I can proceed on that point. Did Thanduxolo approach you while you were in the vehicle?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: And you made a report to him. Did he come to investigate, to have a look at Donne?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Let me explain to you. Thanduxolo got out of his van. I also then got out of the truck. My co-accused also got out. I then went towards him as he was coming as well to tell him how the operation went.

MR BOTMA: And after you made the report he inspected Donne and he instructed you to take her into the forest. Is that the position?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Could the speaker please repeat the question?

MR BOTMA: After, when you made the report to him he came to you, he inspected her and he instructed you to take her into the forest.
(Could the speaker please come closer to the mike, Mr Botma?)

MR BOTMA: There seems to be some problem here. I am asking you. Can you hear me now? That when you made the report, after you made the report Thanduxolo went to, he made the report to you and thereafter he inspected her. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Could you please (...intervention)