Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

MS FLATELA: On the 18th Chris Naidoo 'belled' [phoned] and said that they have confirmed that the child did die in a accident, but they can't say what sort of an accident.  So I prepared myself to go to Lusaka, but when Chris Naidoo phoned he said that and unfortunately they said that they buried the child on the 16th of December.  I don't know why they did that because I asked them that the mother said that they must not bury the child if the child is dead.
 Okay, so but all and all I went to Lusaka.  When I got to Lusaka, we were housed in a sort of a guest house, the mother of that house was Ms Kwana I don't know was it her real name or was it a combat name.  But  she said that she was from Swaziland.  So I asked around a little bit was there any funeral on the 16th of December around here and then the only thing he could tell - she could tell me - she said that the only funeral they had was an elderly man who died of natural causes.
 Then I don't know what to think and then okay, we slept because I left with my sister.  The following day comrade mamma Ruth came to us.  And again I asked her how did this child die - and she repeated that she died in an accident - what kind of an accident - no a car accident - was he driving or what - what has happened - no it is just a accident, a car accident.
 Okay I left it like that, so after about 30 minutes while we were sitting with mamma Ruth, comrade Steve Tshwete and Alfred Nzo came to us and then they just told me that I should be brave - I must not cry because they did get the report that I've been - also an activist - very active in the movement and they thank me for that.  But all in all another story emerged after I've met comrade Steve Tshwete and comrade Alfred Nzo, they told me that no the child didn't die in Lusaka.  He died in Luanda, which was now a total different story, he died in Luanda.
 And they had to bury the child - when I asked them where did you bury the - no because there are no more   [indistinct]  in Luanda, it was already nine days the child had died so we had to bury him.  And then mamma Ruth said to me, okay since there are comrades MK-comrades who usually come when their families come and visit them, they come once a week - so you will have to stay for the week here, and then the plane which leaves for Angola goes only on a Tuesday.
 So we will go with you at least that you can see your child's funeral - your child's grave and you'll meet some other comrades who know you there, who will be very glad to see you.  Okay we stayed there for a week, but the Monday mamma Ruth came again and said it's a pity you can't go to Luanda or Angola because the planes will be fired, will be shot down by the Savimbi troops.  I was devastated, my heart was broken, then I asked mamma Ruth - mamma Ruth what do you mean, what am I going to tell the people at home - at least if - at least if I saw the grave at least I would feel a little bit better and I would believe that the child is dead.
 Especially now there are so many stories, the other one comes with car accident in Lusaka, now the other comrades come with in Luanda - now what should I believe, really what should I believe.  Then I asked mamma Ruth okay mamma Ruth since then I have just come here for nothing, going back heart sore, will you give me the death certificate so at least there are policies which I've included him, that I can go and claim that money.  And then mamma Ruth said no because it's Christmas time, it's holiday it was already over Christmas -  I stayed for  two weeks there, since it's Christmas time the offices are closed and all that.  
 Within two weeks time you will get the death certificate.  Up till today I am still waiting for that death certificate.  Mamma Ruth came back from exile, I went to her again, I kept pestering her to tell me the truth what is the real truth and where is the death certificate.  At the end of the day we became enemies.
 So I don't know till today if only this Commission if my child is - I  am going to accept that he is dead, but really it is heart sore to be told lies - because at the end of the day there was another comrade who was also in exile with Khotso.  When he came back, I met him, in fact I thanked him for  what he did, because he went to my place and told  me that comrade these people have been misleading you.  They didn't tell you the truth, I know the truth I was with Khotso, he landed on a landmine.
 Now when I ask mamma Ruth - mamma Ruth why did - why have you been telling me lies all these years - it's eight years I have been suffering - I wanted to know my child how he died, she just said to me - no I only told you what I  was told, just like that.
 I think the only thing I am going to ask from this Commission is just to tell me that - to find out the truth for me, how  he died, I mean he - it doesn't become so painful at least when you know where did your child end, how he died and only if the leadership of our organisation could just tell me the truth.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mamma I know that it is very painful for you, but I do need to ask you a few questions so that we can get some clarity.  You said that you were told that he in fact had died in Lusaka but when you got to Lusaka you were told by comrade Tshwete that he had actually died in Luanda.

MS FLATELA: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: You've mentioned in your statement to us that you met comrade Tshwete and comrade Nzo afterwards and you asked them about your son's death again.

MS FLATELA: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: And you didn't get any response - do you want to tell us about that please.

MS FLATELA: When I met comrade Nzo and comrade Steve Tshwete - as I've said comrade Nzo was evasive you  know, you can see a person when he  is  evasive.  The only thing he said, he said that it's a pity that  children had to run away from the system in South African and then come here to be killed - be killed by I don't know - he just say be killed.  I didn't know by whom, and in 1991 we were at   Reaofela Resort  at a ANC conference.  I met comrade Nzo, I went to him because in fact I was not going to ask him anything about Khotso, I just went to him as a person I've met, way back in exile.
 And I greeted him and I asked him do you  remember - do you still know me, and he said I don't know - I said comrade don't you remember I was in Lusaka you know where that - no I don't know you - I don't even know that name of your son, that's the answer I got.

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry may we have quite please, you mentioned that your son's friend Larry came back from Lusaka and he told you about what happened.

MS FLATELA: Ja.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you give us Larry's proper name please.

MS FLATELA: It's Larry Louw - I don't - Moleko - Moleko - I think the Tswana name but usually call him Larry I don't know his right name or what - but it's Moleko Louw.

YASMINE SOOKA: Can you tell me exactly what he told you please.

MS FLATELA: I think it's '91 - when did this -I think it was in '91 he came to my place, greeted, because I knew him, they were together with Khotso all in the youth league with Khotso.  He said that to me mamma when I came home, I gathered that the organisation has been lying to  you, you don't know actually what  is going on or what has happened to your child.  I am here to tell you - your son was sent out on a - I don't know he called what - to scout around you know - enemies to scout around and then he said that they were four.
 And as they were working, they stepped on a landmine and they were hurt both legs.  If the seniors wanted to help him he could have survived, but they were left there to bleed to death and only reported them at the camp the next morning, I don't know it's the truth, but it's exactly what he told me.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did he give you the names of the other people who were part of that mission - the scouting mission.