Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

ADV DE JAGER: What did Abram do?

MR MOKOENA: He did stab Mr KK Nxaku too.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did he get a knife?

MR MOKOENA: I don't know but as to my realisation he was armed with a knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Sir, coming back to your political motivation, do you know if any of the deceased were ever members of any political organisation?

MR MOKOENA: From the two deceased I never have any knowledge of them being members of political organisations.

MR STEENKAMP: So they were not political enemies or had a contrary view at all, to your knowledge now, correct?

MR MOKOENA: Actually to my knowledge I won't say they were the enemy but what I can say is, they were the obstacles towards what was the aim of the entire youth of the township at that time.

MR STEENKAMP: So it seems to me, and please help me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that the only motive for this killing was pure revenge, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: I don't think so and I won't say that it was a revenge as I have never avenged or revenged in such a manner.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm sorry but I don't understand.  What other motive did you have at that stage and accept -  what was your motive then at that stage for killing the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: As concluded during the meeting, the motive was to go and catch the perpetrators and hand them over to the police since then all what they had done to the community and to the comrades was reported to the police but no further steps or maybe actions were taken against the perpetrators, thus giving us a doubt that maybe there was a link between the police and the criminal gang.

MR STEENKAMP: When you planned these actions did you discuss or consult this incident or the position of the two deceased at the stage with any of the ANC Youth League chairpersons or with any of the ANC leadership in the township?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, actually before leaving for Bekkersdal, like I have, like my co-accused, Mr Hendrik van Rooyen who was the Secretary Organiser and membership office of the ANC Youth League Interim Committee that time, according to him he did report the attack on Mr Mokome and our way forward to Bekkersdal with the aim to catch the perpetrators as it was concluded.

MR STEENKAMP: Just to pick up on your motive again, you see the difficulty I have of your evidence, dealing with your motive, is that both in the court a quo when you were convicted as in both the statements as contained the bundles of Mr Nzeku - Mr Chairman, page 70 to page 73 of the bundle, and Mr Jeremiah Ramagotedi, in both of those statements they state very clearly that your actions were purely criminal and there was no political content of motive whatsoever for your actions.
What is your reaction to that?

MR MOKOENA: I won't agree with what they're saying.  I won't agree with what they're saying because my actions and my fellow comrade's actions came as we were the members of the ANC Youth League in the township.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you maybe just briefly, very briefly, explain to me what do you understand by political motive?

MR MOKOENA: Briefly what I can say is that to my concern, to my awareness about the political motive, it is clear that there must have been a reason aligned with political or maybe being in the interest of the political organisation or maybe whatever it can be, but on the side of the politics.

MR STEENKAMP: Just to follow on that, can you explain to me or the Committee how did the killing of the deceased further your political aims as you saw it?

MR MOKOENA: Sorry?

MR STEENKAMP: How could the killing of the deceased further your political aim at that stage?  How did they benefit your political views at the stage when they were killed?

MR MOKOENA: In fact, as a Youth League member at that time and during the then tense situation around the township, the ...[indistinct] of the entire youth was to combat on all sorts of crime and to defend the community wherever it is needed.

CHAIRPERSON: All that really means is that you're fighting against criminals and crime, that's the emphasis.  Criminals were harassing the community, terrorising the students, these gangsters.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is uppermost in your mind.  My question really is, how is that connected with politics?

MR MOKOENA: Totally it was disturbing, the process of finally getting the formal launching of the ANC Youth League and to attend to the aims and objectives of the Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why, if those who were apposing you had a political organisation of their own which opposed you politically then you were political rivals, do you understand?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: There hasn't been a word that has been uttered by you or in the papers to suggest that as far as the gangsters were concerned, that there was any politics at all in what they did.  Do I make myself clear?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think that is the question that Mr Steenkamp is really trying to ...[intervention]

MR MOKOENA: Can you repeat the question again Mr Strydom?

MR STEENKAMP: I'll try to make it as easy as possible for you to understand.  The question is this: it seems to me that there was basically a gang war in Kutsaong, is that correct, at the time of the killing?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, there were rival gangsters fighting each other.

MR STEENKAMP: And there was revenge attacks between the different gangs on each other, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, to those who were known to the township that time.

MR STEENKAMP: And on your own evidence, the killing of both the deceased was done because of the killing of the person you mentioned, I think you said, Mr - can you just help me with that name, how do you pronounce that name, the deceased?  The deceased that was killed according by both the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: Manxgane.

MR STEENKAMP: Manxgane.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it was in 1989 that time.

MR STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that was the primary reason why both these deceased were killed by yourself?

MR MOKOENA: I won't agree with that because it happened in 1989 and they were still around after the matter was left in the hands of the police, so if it was meant to be revenge we would have revenged it if it was to be, but I won't say the aim was to revenge.

MR STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that you never received any mandate, directly or indirectly, from any ANC leader or organiser or member of the Youth League who was in charge of the youth at that stage, to kill anybody, am I right in saying that?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, you're right, we never received any mandate from anyone, but now since then we were the Youth League members and we were with one of the executive members within ourselves, of which whom I won't say he gave the mandate but it was a mandate from all the comrades who were gathered there during that meeting.

MR STEENKAMP: Maybe my ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get this clear.  You see, when you decide among yourselves, a group of you, you might call that a mandate.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, not mandate but instructions.  Nobody who was your senior in the ANC or in the Youth League gave you instructions to do what you did, that is the question isn't it?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was a mandate in the sense that it was a common decision taken by you among yourselves.

MR MOKOENA: Of course yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	I'm informed Sir, that there was basically two big gangs operating in Kutsaong, the one being called the Kadafis and the other one being called the Zim Zims, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it's correct.

MR STEENKAMP: And were you a member of any of these gangs?

MR MOKOENA: Not at all, I was a member of the ANC Youth League.

MR STEENKAMP: And the deceased, were they members of any of these gangs?