Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I would like to consult you in this regard in chambers and we'll make proper arrangements.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Diaz, your witness would be testifying in connection with an incident or a murder as a matter of fact which is not on our role for amnesty, is that correct?

MR DIAZ: Indeed that is so.

ADV DE JAGER: So we won't bring out any decision that would affect your client.

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I had considered that and as has been heard from the testimony of the last witness, the applicant has not been convicted in regard to Kushana Kuzwayo but my instructions were to lead that evidence for the purpose of credibility to show that in fact the applicant has not been absolutely truthful, honest and open with his application.
	And purely from the point of credibility the next witness who is intended to be called tomorrow morning, will show that this applicant falls short at that level.

ADV DE JAGER: He should make a full disclosure about the offences for which he applies for amnesty.  Suppose he killed somebody or he'd stolen property  that's not connected with his amnesty application, what would the relevance be?

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I agree with that reasoning totally, I cannot disagree with that but only to the extent that the applicant has chosen of his own free voluntary decision and perhaps on the advice of his counsel to lead that evidence relative to the death of Kushana Kuzwayo, did my client come to instruct me to counter that on that level.
	Had the applicant not dealt with the death of Kushana Kuzwayo, then obviously we would not have dealt with that either.  It would seem to me that the applicant has an objective in dealing with that and as has been submitted by my learned colleague his counsel, it was purely to give a fuller honest, truthful impression.  It is at that level that my client seeks to counteract it.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) I think we'll take a short adjournment now and I want counsel to come and see me in chambers.  We'll stand down for a short while.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) now does that make things, does it simplify matters as far as calling further evidence is concerned?

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I'm indebted to you.  Indeed I have instructions not to call any further witnesses, the only other witness that I intended to call, the son of the late Kushana Kuzwayo in circumstances will not be called and I have no further witnesses, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)
MR SHANGWENI ADDRESSES
	May it please the Chairperson, members of the Committee, you have just heard evidence from Msizi Hlope.  The nature of his evidence is that he was involved in assisting those who murdered Zazi Kuzwayo and Nicolas Mkhize by pointing out where they stayed and he's taking full responsibility thereof.  
	The applicant also admitted that he took part in an attempt to assassinate Mrs Pearl Shabalala and pointing out Richard Piri's house. 
	The applicant in his application, has shown the following:
	He was a member of Inkatha and subsequently he was a special constable.   There's no legal documentation in support thereof but if the Committee allows me, I would like to refer it to paragraph 56 of the statement of B Alex Kumalo at page 191 of the bundle, where Mr B Alex Kumalo, he was a Caprivi trainee, confirms that an appointment certificate was issued without training.

ADV DE JAGER: That's on page?

MR SHANGWENI: Page 191 member of the Committee, of the bundle, paragraph 56 thereof.

ADV DE JAGER: But there's nothing to ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: We have shown that in many instances those certificates would be issued and the people those certificates were issued to would believe that they were acting lawfully under the Kwa Zulu police.  What I'm trying to establish is to associate his acts with the lawfulness of the Kwa Zulu police at that time irrespective of the appointment issued in a wrong name.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not just a question of being issued in the wrong name, he wasn't even trained, he was given a false, bogus certificate.  That doesn't make him a servant of the State.

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct Mr Chairperson but what is important is that, where did that money come from, it came from the tax payers money, that is from the State.

CHAIRPERSON: How do we know?  How do we know that?  ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: I will withdraw that ...(inaudible) Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV DE JAGER: I suppose even if it was taxpayer's money, who gave - who in the ...(inaudible) gave him the order to kill acting as a bona fide policeman?  Who was his superior in rank who gave him the orders, there's no evidence at all that any person ordered him to kill except Mr Djamile and Mr Djamile - there's no evidence of him being in control of this special force.

CHAIRPERSON: What we know is that Djamile was an influential man ...(inaudible) but there's nothing to show that he is an authorised officer of Inkatha ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: I'm withdrawing that submission Mr Chairperson, thank you.
	At that time Mr Chairperson, the applicant believed that UDF or ANC supporters were terrorists who were just murderers who had no respect for the law.  His acts were associated with a political objective because he was instructed by Mr Djamile who was a member of Inkatha then and he was also a member of Kwa Zulu Government.
	His tasks, that is the applicant, were to point out Djamile's political enemies and that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That is very interesting, isn't it, pointing out Djamile's political enemies, not the Government's political enemies, not Inkatha's political enemies but Djamile's political enemies.

MR SHANGWENI: Be that as it may Mr Chairperson.  I don't want to deal with evidence that emanated in other forums which pointed to the fact that some people would abuse power, political power.   (no sound)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.