Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, well the only point thatremains is what I have asked you, whether you are saying that we should usehis affidavit to cross-examine your clients for example. Maybe you should giveit some careful thought.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, it is part of therecord. The contents of his application have been discussed with the applicantsand we certainly note Judge Ngoepe's concerns and we will cross that bridgewhen we come to it.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: The problem I have Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman in thatregard, although it would have been difficult, but I understood from Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendseneither he nor Ms Goza were actually representing Mr Mphlalele. If they hadnot instructions from him, I don't see how they can ask for the matter to beremoved from the role and maybe set down for another day, that is the problemI have. Without direct instructions, but I am not making difficulties, it isjust ...

<UNKNOWN>: ll we can say at this stage, Mr Mphlalele's applicationstands down until we hear further.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Very well.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, may I just mention one aspect on that point. It seems to me thatthe application on behalf of the applicants who are presently before the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee,is somewhat premised on what will be said by Mr Mphlalele and that they presumeto state that he was the person who gave them orders, it appears to me thatthey intend to rely for support in their applications, on what will be saidby that person. To the extent that these proceedings are also premised on afull disclosure, I have some difficulty as to how the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee is expectedor will be able rather, to make findings as to whether full disclosure has beenmade, whether a truthful disclosure has been made, whether there is any foundationin what is being said by the other applicants, without being able to test whatthe person who they rely on, would in fact say.

CHAIRPERSON: We will wrestleas we get along. How we would propose to deal with the evidence that is goingto be adduced before us, the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee will decide.

<UNKNOWN>: ut we can't postpone theseproceedings just because Mr Mphlalele is not here and we are going to proceedand cross-examination invariably can be directed at applicants at any kind ofinformation that may be at your disposal, it need not be evidence in anybodyelse's document or affidavit. So, to what extent reliance is placed on theirevidence and they acted on the orders of so and so, when so and so is not hereto confirm it, these are matters which we will have to decide when the timecomes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: For the time being, wewill just proceed with the evidence.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I understand that.

ADVDE JAGER: Perhaps Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, could I add, you should perhaps have a lookat Section 19(8) whether this application of Mr Mphlalele is a public documentnow and whether it can be used. Was the hearing in connection with himself,I don't know whether we've started that?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, Idid say earlier that we always had instructions from Mr Mphlalele to representhim. When I say we don't have instructions, we don't have instructions todayto make representations on his behalf for example. So we certainly don't haveany objections to reference being made to his application and that the contentsof the application being disclosed publicly.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he instructyou to appear at these hearings?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, Judge.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... properly understood, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge's argument is that you want to take anaffidavit of Mr Mphlalele, you want to base your case on it and yet, he is nothere for him to cross-examine him in that regard? I think actually that is whathe is saying. In other words, you understand what I mean, he is saying thatMr Mphlalele is not here, you ask us to stand down his application, but at thesame time, you want to retain his affidavit, which is very fundamental apparentlyto your clients' case. You want to rely on it, but he is not going to be ableto cross-examine Mr Mphlalele because he is not here.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Theevidence will reveal that the reliance is more apparent than real. There isno reliance on Mr Mphlalele's application.

<UNKNOWN>: nd I would go along with the suggestionof the

<UNKNOWN>: hairman that we proceed and that we deal with that aspect if and whenit becomes necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, you may proceed.

ADVARENDSE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, then just along the same lines and the previous application,we want to hand up affidavits.

<UNKNOWN>: opies have been made available to my colleagues.The original if we could mark that
Exhibit

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: This is the affidavit of whom?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman,we intend to start in that order I said, Mkhumbuzi, Mlambisa and Makoma.

CHAIRPERSON: The affidavit of Mr Mkhumbuzi will go in as
Exhibit

<UNKNOWN>: .

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, thank you. The affidavit of

<UNKNOWN>: assieNzikizi Mkhumbuzi.

<UNKNOWN>: opies have also been made available to the interpreters,Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. "I, the undersigned,

<UNKNOWN>: assie Nzikizi Mkhumbuzi, do hereby makeoath and say that I am aged 21 years and I reside at 2023 Unathi, Old

<UNKNOWN>: rossroads.I am unmarried and I am the father of three children aged four, one and elevenmonths. The facts to which I depose, are true and correct and within my personalknowledge, unless the context otherwise indicates. I grew up in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town andwent to school in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town and reached standard 8, at Vuyiseka High Schoolin Woodstock. I am currently facing eleven charges of murder, charges of attemptedmurder and three of unlawful possession of arms and ammunition. I am out onbail at the moment and I am currently stationed at 3 SYI Infantry

<UNKNOWN>: attalionin Kimberley doing my basic military training. I will shortly be transferredto the Northern

<UNKNOWN>: ape

<UNKNOWN>: ommand on a permanent basis. The charges which I face,relate to the events at the St James

<UNKNOWN>: hurch in 3rd

<UNKNOWN>: venue, Kenilworth in theDistrict of Wynberg, on Sunday, the 25th of July, 1993.

<UNKNOWN>: t the time, I was 17years old. I have submitted an application for amnesty in terms of Section 18of the

<UNKNOWN>: ct in respect of the charges which I face. I have been a member of thePan

<UNKNOWN>: frican

<UNKNOWN>: ongress since 1989 and a member of the

<UNKNOWN>: frican People's Liberation

<UNKNOWN>: rmy since November 1992.

<UNKNOWN>: efore that, as an organiser of the P

<UNKNOWN>: Youth League,

<UNKNOWN>: Z

<UNKNOWN>: NYO, I had actively supported members of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: by providing assistance whencalled upon to do so. I was a member of an

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: Unit of which Makoma was a trainer,that is one of the other applicants. We held regular weekly meetings where weallocated each other various tasks. We would always report back at the weeklymeetings whether or not the tasks we were given at the previous meeting, wascarried out.

<UNKNOWN>: s a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: I was trained by

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: Operators and

<UNKNOWN>: ommandersin various aspects of conducting guerilla warfare. The training I received includedphysical training, attending political classes and receiving instructions onhow to use and operate weapons, ammunition, arms and handgrenades. I was alsotaught how to make petrol bombs referred to as Molatov

<UNKNOWN>: ocktails.