Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

MR MAKANJEE: Sorry?  Okay thank you.  I'm sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Who do you appear for?

MR MAKANJEE: Both of us appear for all the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't be, who do I speak to?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, if I may address you on that?  When we lead the - each of us will appear for a separate applicant.  When we lead the applicant we will introduce ourselves to the panel for ease of reference.

CHAIRPERSON: No Mr Makanjee, I'm asking who you're appearing for?   All, out of these 35 to 40 applicants, who do you appear for.

MR MAKANJEE: Of all 35 of 40 applicants I have been instructed to appear on behalf of all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are going to lead them all?

MR MAKANJEE: My counsel will lead a portion of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that's what I'm trying to establish.

MR MAKANJEE: My apologies, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who would you lead and who would he lead?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, due to the circumstances that we're faced with, we are approaching that on a day to day basis.  In other words we will inform the evidence leader of the TRC before the witness is to be called, who will be leading that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Something concerns me, Mr Makanjee.  Appearances at these hearings have cost implications.  I trust that a suitable distinction will be made at the end of the hearing between you and your counsel because this is unusual.  Yes proceed?

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Will you state your full name for the Committee please?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Chichela Esau Machitje.

CHAIRPERSON: Which language would you prefer to use?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I would prefer to use English.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes I'm quite sure.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: (sworn states)

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Machitje, would you very briefly give us an idea of your role in Thokoza between 1990 and 19 ....(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, before you continue, could you kindly advise us in respect of which offences he is applying for amnesty?

MR MAKANJEE: My apologies again.  Mr Machitje is a commander involved and he will be testifying as regards to the situation in Thokoza at the time, in the form of background information from 1990 until 1994.  He will then also be applying specifically for the orders that he had given to SDU members.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he guilty of any offence because if he's not he is wasting his time.

MR MAKANJEE: According to my instructions, my client participated in defending the community and mentions an attack on the community in September 1994 wherein he participated.  My client also seeks ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Now the incident in September 1994, does that involve a crime related to a gross human rights violation or not?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairman, again an instruction on that just to clarify the position?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm surprised you don't have it.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chair, my instructions are that during the attack in question my client did indeed shoot attackers who is not able to identify.  He is able to give a full description of the event.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that person die or were people injured or what is the position?

MR MAKANJEE: Given the situation at the time, my client is unable to state whether people specifically died.  He knows that marchers were injured at the time of his firing shots where he is unaware as he didn't stay on the premises long enough to actually ascertain if any life was taken.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is he guilty of, what's he applying, amnesty on what offence?

MR MAKANJEE: He is applying for amnesty as the person who instituted the self defence units in the area, he is the commander, he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee, to my knowledge, being a commander of a self defence unit is and was not a crime.

ADV MOTATA: No because, if I may jut in here, if you have regard to Annexure 3 which was handed up to us this morning, code of conduct, if you look at the second page
	 "Auditing - records must be kept of men arrested, killed 	or injured and of material loss or confiscated."
So there was a code of conduct that they would audit these things and if that is the case he should be in a position to say who he killed if he's making an application in that respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Or in fact whether he did kill somebody.  That's why we want to know exactly what he is applying for.

MR MAKANJEE: I'm sorry Mr Chairperson, my client thinks that people have been killed as a result of his actions.  He further did supply weapons to members of his unit for the purposes of attacking members of the other side or the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the 1994 incident?  The 1994 September incident?

MR MAKANJEE: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear?

MR MAKANJEE: Sorry, I mentioned 1990 September.

CHAIRPERSON: 1990?

MR MAKANJEE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And the date in September?

MR MAKANJEE: I beg your pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: Can you give us the approximate date?  The 23rd March or the 23rd September?

MR MAKANJEE: The march took place in 1994.  This is a separate incident that my client is referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's not get confused and you've got to be careful what you tell us now.  Are you saying it's September 1990?  He himself shot at people, he suspects some of them were either killed or injured and he also provided ammunition and arms to others in order to shoot at the same group of people some of whom may have been killed or injured?

MR MAKANJEE: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That's one incident, maybe one or two offences.  Anything else?

MR MAKANJEE: After the discussion yesterday we wanted to also create a background picture for the panel.  Apart from the incident that he is applying for now, Mr Machitje would be suitably qualified to introduce the background in the situation into Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee, let's forget about the background now.  Are there any other crimes for which he will make application?

MR MAKANJEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's proceed then.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Can we begin from the - with the background Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) and what was submitted as a necessity for the establishment of SDU's.  I don't know how much more can be added to that.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, my instructions are that the client - the panel does have a background into the development of the SDU's but not specifically into Xhosa.  My client does have a map which he hopes to use to be able to show the panel exactly what the situation was into Xhosa itself.  My client was an MK commander from 1990 until the formation of the SDU's in late 1991.  He is therefore in a position to give that background from that period.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just tell me why did you shoot at people during September 1990?