Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, that was not the case.  I said she was never stripped of her clothes because if we did that she was not going to be taken at Wellington, she was taken to Engangaliswe, that is the information that I received and then I saw her the next day in the morning and I was told that she was from Engangaliswe and she was very, very sick and I was told that she fell down the stairs and I'm not sure if she eventually went to Engangaliswe or not.

MR LAX: You didn't hear the question, really.  The question is a very simple one.  Let me try and say it again.  You led us to understand that after she had recovered, because her clothes were wet you couldn't take her to Wellington therefore she was taken to Engangaliswe Police Station.  The impression you gave us was that no further interrogation or torture happened once she had recovered.  Is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I think it is a mistake because I left her in the office where she was about to be taken to Engangaliswe because her clothes were wet, I think I made a mistake before.

MR LAX: Yes so it remains the same, that if she was about to be taken to Engangaliswe Police Station, it's very unlikely that any further interrogation took place, correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes, that is correct because she was not in a very good condition.

MR LAX: Precisely, so then you were present for the entire time in which she was interrogated during that day?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I was present during the day.

MR LAX: Please continue Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: I'm indebted to the Committee.  As a matter of fact the victim says that whilst at some times she was blindfolded, burn cigarettes were applied on her body in your presence, do you remember that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I cannot recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that that happened then?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I cannot dispute that.

MR STOFILE: What is strange is that these things happened in your presence and then you say earlier on you didn't say you don't know about it but nonetheless I'll proceed.  The other time is that the victim was also assaulted by you actually kicking her on a table, you ordered her to lie on a table and you kicked her whilst she was on a table so that she rolled over and fell on the floor.  Do you remember that

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I do not remember that.

MR STOFILE: Is it perhaps you don't remember because of the lapse of time?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I cannot remember about it.

MR STOFILE: My client, the victim, says that you actually did that, do you also not remember that at some other time whilst she was lying prostrate on the ground either face down with the arm at the back twisted by one of you?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Can I please ask a question?  I did not hear that question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was can you remember when she says that while she was lying on the ground face down, her arm was twisted behind her back?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I do not remember doing such a thing.

MR STOFILE: You can't dispute that occurred?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR STOFILE: You will also recall that the victim, whilst she was also lying down on the floor either with her face upwards or down it was free for all, you trampled on her body with your feet kicking and jumping on her body, do you recall that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No I did not do that.

MR STOFILE: Do you dispute that even your colleagues did that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I cannot dispute that.

MR STOFILE: Anyway, the instructions of my client says that that did happen.  The strange part of this is that some common occurrence in the other detainees in which you took an active part, the burning of the ...(indistinct), the burning of the cigarettes on the body, kicking of persons occurred, you know, either you, in your presence or you also taking an active part and the other detainees who have been mentioned earlier on?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: What is your question?

MR STOFILE: My question is that was the same pattern even in respect of the victim?

CHAIRPERSON: This is now a question of argument, I don't know if you want him to answer your argument but you can let him do it but it's essentially an argument, I don't know what you expect him to say to it.  Any response to that, Mr Siqhola?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not get the question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't so much a question, he was just putting a proposition to you.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was putting a question to you to say that there was a development of a sort of a similar pattern of torture done to the other victims in your presence either by you or in conjunction with the others in your presence which was done also in the case of the victim in this particular case, like the burning of her body with cigarettes, kicking her, using open hands to hit her.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he's denied this, I mean he said that there were methods, the canvas bag method they used not only on one person but various persons, they hit people.  I think the only one that might be a bit in dispute here is the burning of - using the cigarettes to burn?

MR STOFILE: Yes Mr Chair, I'm actually putting the others together with that one.  There seems to be a common pattern and in this particular case you are denying it that you participated in burning her with a cigarette stub?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: What method is the same Sir?

MR STOFILE: The method of using a lighted cigarette and applying the lighted part on her body?

CHAIRPERSON: He denied that he did that with the others, it's a point in dispute, he didn't admit doing it, I've forgotten who the person was, Mr Mgidlana, the one that ...(intervention)

MR MGIDLANA: I recall he had denied having done it to Mtimkulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he denied it.

MR STOFILE: I'm putting to you that that has been a pattern of allegations.

CHAIRPERSON: This is essentially a question of argument.

MR STOFILE: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
	You have mentioned the push up, what is the push up?  Is it part of the method which you used on detainees.  Can you explain that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is an exercise.

CHAIRPERSON: It's where you lie down, Mr Stofile, you lie down with your legs straight and your arms - with your face facing the floor board and your palms in front of your chest, your legs stiff and you push your body up and down, up and down.

MR STOFILE: Thank you Chair.  In this particular case, the detainee alleges that at some point after she had fainted you caused her to sit straight with the head upright, like this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: For purposes of the record Mr Stofile is indicating leaning back in his chair with his legs straight out and his head looking up towards the ceiling.

MR STOFILE: Then you applied water onto her nose, you in particular.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I did not do that.

MR STOFILE: Do you dispute that that never occurred?  I'm trying to eliminate perhaps you are doubtful because of the passage of time, because the instructions are that you did that.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I did not do that, I am here to tell the truth, I am not going to hide anything.  I cannot lie here, I cannot say I did something that I did not do.  I will say yes to something that I did but I will not agree with something I did not do.

MR STOFILE: My instructions are that after that you put a fan whilst she was still seated on that position after holding a litre bottle, putting water on her nose you applied a fan by putting straight on her face, fully blowing at the maximum so that the air was stinging inside her nostrils and the victim says it's you in particular who did that.  What do you say to that?