Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Are you saying if a person is a member of Inkatha or the SAP, I would say it was already known that they were enemies.  I have also indicated that there was already an implied order to the effect that the IFP and the SAP were the enemy, so that if such people were threatening the community, it was therefore our responsibility to eliminate them.

MR HATTINGH: Would you at the time have considered that someone was threatening the community purely on the basis that he was a member of Inkatha or did he have to do something more than to be a member of Inkatha before you would kill him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I would say to Mr Hattingh, Bongani was Inkatha, Charlie was Inkatha and Basil was Inkatha.  They came to us and we discussed, we did not kill them.  We were not going around killing people because they were just IFP members.

MR HATTINGH: Were you aware of the fact that Obed Nhlabathi and Mdudusi Mutau was awaiting trial, they were arrested and they were awaiting trial for the murder of Khaba's mother?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, I didn't know that.

MR HATTINGH: Were you aware of the fact that Khaba's mother was murdered some six weeks, or that she got killed some six weeks prior to the killing of Obed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Even though I didn't know, I don't know the length of time, I knew about the death of Khaba's mother.

MR HATTINGH: Did you and Khaba discuss the fact that his mother got killed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Discussing how?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, the killing of Obed, was that the plan of revenge for Obed suspected of having killed Khaba's mother?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Chairperson, we learnt that the Black Cats are the ones that attacked Khaba's mother and they just gave us a plural number as to the people who attacked Khaba's mother.

MR HATTINGH: I put it to you that in fact you assisted Khaba in the killing of Obed, not because Obed was a danger to the community and that you wanted to protect the community, but because of revenge for the killing of Khaba's mother.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: If that is how you see it, that is wrong.  That is not correct.

MR HATTINGH: When you went passed the disco that night, could you just explain, were you on your way to the disco initially or was it by chance that you ended up at the disco?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Our main objective was to go and see Bongani's grandmother.

MR HATTINGH: Why then did you go to the disco?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: As I have explained, we came across certain people on our way.  People who indicated to us that they were being troubled by the Black Cats at the disco and that is when we rushed to the disco to find out what was happening.

MR HATTINGH: Did you find any problems at the disco when you got there?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, because people ended up getting injured and we too, ran away.

MR HATTINGH: I put it to you that the witness that will be called in this regard, will say that there were no problems at the disco prior to your and Khaba's arrival.
	The only problems that there were, were caused by you when your crowd started shooting.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: This is very strange, how could I have shot Dumsani who was my friend.  I could not have taken him and shot him at the disco.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see Obed at the disco at all?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Things happened so fast and the lighting in that area is so poor, there was just no way one could identify people, fast as things were happening.

MR HATTINGH: Had you seen Obed earlier that day?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, I did not.

MR HATTINGH: Is it then correct to say that you only saw Obed for the very first time that day, when you that night went to hospital and found him in his hospital bed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I thought your question was whether I saw him before on that day or not.  Would you please explain.  Are you referring to that day here or what, would you please explain.

MR HATTINGH: Yes.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I don't know what you are agreeing to, because you have just asked me about that day or other days, I don't know, I don't understand.

MR HATTINGH: I haven't been talking about any other days, I am talking about the day that the events took place which led to Obed's death.
	Have you seen Obed on that day prior to your killing him, or assisting to kill him in his hospital bed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I am very sorry, I didn't get your question well.
	I didn't see him on that day before I saw him at the hospital.

MR HATTINGH: Did you personally take part in any fighting at the disco earlier that evening?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The one part that I played, was running away.

MR HATTINGH: As far as I can remember, you in your evidence in chief said that you took out your knife of some sort, some kind.  What was the position with regard to that?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I used the knife so that I could clear my way to run away.

MR HATTINGH: Could you say whether any of the people involved in the fighting at the disco that night, were under the influence of alcohol?  Either your group or the other group?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I would not tell whether they were drunk or not.

ADV SANDI: Did you at any stage Mr Lukhele, see this people consuming alcohol?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, the people who were in the disco, most of them were the members of the community, therefore I knew them.

ADV SANDI: Did you see any one of the two groups that were fighting, that is your group and the other side, any one of those people consuming alcohol on that day?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, I couldn't see that.

MR HATTINGH: Your friend who got injured that night, did you personally take him to the hospital or did you only accompany him to his own house?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We took him from the scene, because he couldn't walk, we carried him to his home.  He was staying a few streets from the scene.  We left him there so that the people in the house could take him to the hospital.

MR HATTINGH: So when you later that night went to the hospital, that would be the first time that you had gone to the hospital that day, when you killed Obed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I normally go to the hospital to go and visit sick people, that was not my first time to go to the hospital.

MR HATTINGH: Had you been to the hospital earlier that night before going to the hospital to kill Obed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No.

MR HATTINGH: Where did you see or meet with Mrs Nkosi?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: At Mdluli Street.

MR HATTINGH: The report that she made, can you just tell us again, what did she tell you about what was going on at the hospital?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: She told me about Dumi's condition and the fact that there were Black Cats who arrived there and tortured Dumi.

MR HATTINGH: What did the Black Cats do to Dumi?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: He told me that those people said they were coming back to him again.

MR HATTINGH: Did Mrs Nkosi know that Obed Nhlabathi was already in hospital?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: It seemed so because she told us that the people, the Black Cats gang came, they brought Obed and at the same time they went to see Dumi.

MR HATTINGH: Did Mrs Nkosi mention the name of Obed, that he was already in hospital?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Though I can't remember, I am not sure if she did or not.  But we never used to call them with their names, we used to refer to them as the Black Cats.

MR HATTINGH: Well, when was the decision made to kill Obed that night?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The decision to kill Obed, I don't know, I can't remember when was it taken, but I think it was done just before he was killed.  Just before he got killed.

MR HATTINGH: Was the decision taken on your way to the hospital, or only the moments when you got to his bed and you realised that it was Obed in the bed?