Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) proceeding today with the applications of Messrs Nesamari, Ramushwana, Managa, Ramaligela, Netshivale.  We commenced these proceedings some time ago in Tzaneen and the matter is part heard.  Four of the applicants have testified and today we'll be proceeding with the evidence of the fifth applicant, Mr Netshivale.  And I'm also informed that we'll also be hearing evidence from the victims.
	Before we start, I'd just like to introduce the Panel to you.  On my right is Judge Sisi Khampepe, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and is an acting judge attached to the Cape Court.  On my left is Advocate Francis Bosman, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and she comes from the Cape.  And I am Selwyn Miller, a judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, I'm attached to the Transkei division of the Court.    	I would at this stage also like to ask the legal representatives to kindly place themselves again on record for the benefit of those persons who weren't present at the last hearing.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, my name is Meyer, initials BH and I'm an advocate at the Pretoria Bar and I've been instructed in this matter by the firm Booyens, Du Preez and Boshoff, represented by my colleague, the attorney, Mr De Klerk.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, my name is Van Rensburg, SJ from Kriek and Van Rensburg Attorneys in Tzaneen.  I act on behalf of or under instructions from the State Attorney and I represent the fifth applicant in this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.  I'm Lulama Mtanga, David and ...(indistinct) for the Truth Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensburg, it's your client that has to testify this morning.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we are indeed prepared and I'd like to call Captain Carlson Netshivale to the stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Netshivale, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, I don't object.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Thank you, Mr Van Rensburg, you may proceed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Captain, can we start off by you putting your current rank and position on record, please.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: (Microphone not picking up).

MR VAN RENSBURG: Where are you stationed?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I am staying at Thandou.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you tell us something about yourself?  When did you join the police force?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: That was in 1979.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And were you subsequently also a member of the Venda Force?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Evidence has been led so far that you actually were also a member of the Security Branch, is that correct?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: When did you join the Security Branch?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I joined the Security Branch immediately after training 1979.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interrupt, Mr Van Rensburg?  I seem to be having serious problems with my headphones.  My apologies, could I be assisted?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that better now, Judge Khampepe?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry, Mr Van Rensburg, you may carry on.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Netshivale, can you please us something?  How did it come about that you actually joined the Security Branch?  Were you appointed or were you invited or did you make application to join the Security Branch?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: After training, I was just selected to join the Security Branch.  I didn't apply for that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, and was there some kind of security clearance that you had to obtain before you could join the Security Branch?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: What I know is that the person doesn't simply join the Security Branch but, there were certain investigations which were made to find out if the person was against or in favour of the government of the day.  But maybe it was found that I was in favour of the government of the day.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Who actually did these investigations that you're referring to?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can't say who it is because after basic training I was just selected to work in the Security Branch.

MR VAN RENSBURG: As a member of the Security Branch, was it ever expected of you to make such an investigation on other policemen to find out if they were suited to join the Security Branch?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: What happened is that for a person to be in the Security Branch, there were enquiries which were made to find out whether the person is for the government of the day or is against the government of the day, just like if a person was in favour of the government, then that person could be taken and work for the Security Branch.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the question is did you actually investigate some persons for this specific clearance?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, I investigated other people when they were to be appointed to the police service.  There were enquiries so that we can go and investigate that person.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And was it expected of you to file a report on such an investigation?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: There were reports which were written and directed to the office and, I think they were filed but personally, I'm not sure if they were filed or not.  But I still remember that everything was written down but I suspect that it was kept for filing.

MR VAN RENSBURG: ...(indistinct) If it was found that an applicant was sympathetic to the liberation struggle, do you think he would be appointed to the Security Branch?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: You are referring to me or to other people who were employed?

CHAIRPERSON: To any person, the question was, Mr Netshivale, would you think that people who were sympathetic towards the liberation struggle would be appointed to the police force?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, they wouldn't.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Let's now turn to the events after 26 October 1981.  That is the day on which the bombing took place at the police station.  What rank ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The Sibasa Police Station?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon, Mr Chairman, yes.  Sibasa police station.  What rank did you hold at the stage?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I was a constable.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you present at the Sibasa police station on that day?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, I wasn't there.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you please start to describe your specific role in the investigation and the interrogation that followed the bombing?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: After the bombing of the police station, there were people who were arrested.  And it was then that I was called upon to participate in the interrogation.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you every present during the arrest of any of these people?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you play any part in their actual arrest at all?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: When they were arrested, I was not there.  I saw them while they were in our offices only.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, now, when these people were found yourself in the offices, what were you instructions?  And tell us what was your involvement in that.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: What I participated in was when I was instructed to interrogate those people.  And then it was there when I was involved in the assaulting so that they can tell the truth about how the police station was bombed at Sibasa and by whom.

MR VAN RENSBURG: ...(indistinct) instructed by whom?