Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

CHAIRPERSON: Is point B, that is where Schroeder's body was found?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And it wasn't the photograph taken from the Sterkspruit side of the bridge?

MR OELOFSE: Yes.  It's taken from the Sterkspruit side

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) standing on that side of the bridge?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.  That's the Sterkspruit side.

CHAIRPERSON: B is at presently marked on the other side.  I don't know if I just ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, it was my mistake.  B is where the vehicle was found off the road, I do apologise.  The body was found beyond the white rails on the Sterkspruit side.

CHAIRPERSON: Up towards where car C was?

MR PRIOR: Yes, so I do apologise to the Committee.  Maybe can we mark that point D?

CHAIRPERSON: And which car was found at your original B?

MR PRIOR: It was the bakkie of Mr Tsemane.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it found down on the bottom?

MR PRIOR: Down, down in the donga yes.
   Mr Chairman I don't want there to be any confusion.  On the aerial photograph the two solid white lines that are about an inch in length do not depict the bridge.  It's the barrier lines on the curve, on the ascent.  Crash barriers, yes.  So the body was just below that, according to, maybe Mr Oelofse can clarify that.  I don't want there to be confusion.  Because, sorry, the, in photograph 3, that's at page 19, one sees the bridge behind the two witnesses pointing out.  Those aren't crash barriers which one sees clearly on the aerial photograph.  I don't know if that's clear, but the body was found between the bridge and the crash barriers.

MR LAX: If we understand you correctly, if the person who took this photograph number 3 were to turn around and face in the other direction, what you would see would be those crash barriers that are quite evident on this aerial photograph.  Is that correct?

MR PRIOR: Maybe Mr Oelofse ...(inaudible).

MR OELOFSE: Can you just repeat that please.

MR LAX: What I'm trying to find out is the crash barriers that are very evident on the aerial photograph has two very obvious white lines.

MR OELOFSE: Yes.

MR LAX: Are they further above where these two gentlemen are standing, or actually in the, in the direct, or actually, they are facing in the direction of those crash barriers.  Is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct yes.

MR LAX: So not behind them.  It's in fact in front of them.

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So what I had said was if the person who took the photograph had turned around and taken another photograph the other way, you would clearly see those crash barriers?

MR OELOFSE: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I just want to go back to photograph 2.  I just want to be clear in my own mind.  There are 3 points marked on that photograph.  Mrs Tsemane is pointing to the middle, at least Mrs Dlephu is pointing to the middle one.  What exactly do those three beacons represent again?  Just help me.

MR OELOFSE: Chairman if you look at that photo, I'm not quite, if you look at 2(a) on page 18, that's the schematic representation of the vehicles as they were, and at the middle point there's and, there's indicators to which Mrs Dlephu is pointing.  That's where the attackers were at that point and when they fired at the other vehicle.

MR PRIOR: Which, there's one vehicle across the road at right angles to the road, and there's one vehicle in the lane.

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Now which ...(inaudible) represent?

MR OELOFSE: The one at right angles represents the vehicle in which Mrs Dlephu was driven, driving.  The other one was a representation of the vehicle which stopped.  That of Mr Selly.

MR PRIOR: That's according to Mrs Dlephu's recollection of how far apart they were.

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: And the applicants and their Comrades were in the middle, roughly?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct, you honour.

MR PRIOR: It's much clearer, thank you very much.  Are you able to give us an estimate of what distance is covered by this aerial photograph, from point A to roughly point C?  Did you measure that out at all as far as you can recall?

MR OELOFSE: I cannot remember exactly what the distances were, but round about a kilometre from A to B and just less that a kilometre from B to C.

MR PRIOR: I just want to get clarity.  The body of Mr Schroeder, if we can mark it D on the aerial photo, was just underneath the left barrier as it, you pointed it out on photo 17.  Is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Just to help us again.  If one would take the centre point on the bridge.  How far would that point be from that, approximately?  If we look at photograph 3 we can see that, but there may be some foreshortening.  I don't want to get it wrong.

MR OELOFSE: I cannot remember exactly, but it wasn't very far.  I would say around 50 metres.

MR PRIOR: Mr Oelofse if I can just focus your attention on bundle "A", photos 43, 44 and 45.  Where you involved in those pointing outs?

MR OELOFSE: No, I wasn't.

MR PRIOR: But as those scenes are depicted are they the same ones as the ones we have just referred to?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you tell us in 43 what is he pointing out there?

MR OELOFSE: It shows the same bridge where the vehicle of Mr Tsemane and Brummer ended up in the donga.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) understanding is of no importance.  He's not ...(inaudible) on the spot?

MR OELOFSE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: The same on 44.

MR OELOFSE: Chairperson 44 indicates the position and is pointing to where the vehicle was lying in the ditch.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why are the lampposts there, or telephone,

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) rock there.  Is that the same rock as we're been looking at in "B" 23?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.  It's the same rock that's lying there.

MR PRIOR: Mr Oelofse you didn't see this vehicle represented in "B" 23 at all, did you?

MR OELOFSE: No, I did not.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I be of some assistance.  The photographs put up in bundle "A", those are photographs, I beg your pardon, photographs 43 and 44.  I have the original bundle and the index simply refers to points 1 to 18.  There were several pointings out and there is no detail as to what in fact there was pointing out.  My understanding is that it seems that Mr Makoala took to the Police to various points, but there is no specific reference to what occurred at that point as far as the index is concerned.
   May I just refer the Committee to page 35 of the bundle "A".

ADV SANDI: Did you say 35?

MR PRIOR: Page 35.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any cross-examination?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Chairman I don't know what to, I've been trying my best to follow it, but I must consider I got lost somewhere about this whole thing.  It makes me, puts me in a very difficult position to ask any questions regarding this sketches, but except to just to ask one point I think if I am not mistaken Mr Lax has asked.  Can you, I'm not sure, the Committee will correct me if I'm wrong.  Can you estimate the distance between the bridge and point B.  If, what was the distance between the bridge and point B?

MR OELOFSE: You Honour, it is difficult to say.  If I could make an estimate, it would be 20 metres from the side of the bridge up to where the vehicle was.

MR PRIOR: It would be the same distance, would it not, as it appears in the second, lower photo on "B" 23?  The distance there is fairly clear.

MR OELOFSE: Yes, that is a straight line from the bridge up to where the vehicle is.

MR SIBANYONI: ...(inaudible) from the bridge can you also just roughly tell us from point, from point D to the bridge, can you estimate the distance?  I know the distance you said is long, but I wanted just those.

MR OELOFSE: It is approximately from the middle of the
bridge 50 metres.