Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: You know that it is the applicant's case, he is merely using this statement for the purpose of the cross-examination.  I would assume that as and when his turn comes, he will lay the proper foundation for this statement if the need arises.
	If for example the witness admits the content of this statement, it won't be necessary to call this witness.  Do you see the point?

MR DA SILVA: I won't take the submission any further Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This statements will be allowed.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am mindful of your ruling, but just for the purposes of completeness, might I add that in terms of Section 19(4)(b), that it says that at any hearing the Committee shall inform persons referred to in paragraph (a) and that includes victims of their right to be present at the hearing and to testify, adduce evidence and submit any article to be taken into consideration.
	That is what we are doing, we are submitting articles to be taken into consideration.

CHAIRPERSON: ... statement, we have ruled Mr Berger, that the statement will be allowed.

MR BERGER: Could the statement of Hendrik Johannes Geldenhuys, which has a typed A1220 in the right hand corner, Exhibit L, Jakobus Daniel Venter, A1027 - I am sorry Chairperson, we can't hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: I am saying that because this statement appear to be in the form of a bundle, shall we not just mark them L1 through to the end.  Let's just get the order right.
	The first statement is that of Jakobus Daniel Venter.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, would it be impossible to change the order?  Never mind, they have already been stapled, so then if you could just tell me what the order is.

CHAIRPERSON: The first one is Daniel Jakobus Venter, which is marked 12.  That is A1027 on the right hand side column.  Right, so that would be - did you say Exhibit L1, yes, very well.

MR BERGER: Which one is L2?

CHAIRPERSON: Van Straaten, A4 yes.  That would be L3.  L4, right.   And then the next one is Kobus Barend du Plessis, A2.  That would be L5, L6.
	Then there is another Gerhardus Jakobus van Straaten, which is A1025.  That will be L7, L8, L9, L10.  And then there is yet - well another Jakobus Barend du Plessis, which is A1024.  That would be L11, L12.
	Then the next statement is that of Theunis Lodewikus Steyn, which is A5(a).

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it should be A9(a).

CHAIRPERSON: All right, that would be L13, L14 and then there is another statement by Jakobus Daniel Venter.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, that seems to be a duplicate.  If that is A1027, yes, that is already L1.

CHAIRPERSON: The first statement by Venter, well, no the last statement by Venter appears to have some kind of a signature just above A1027, the very last statement.  The last statement by Daniel Venter, top right hand corner.

MR BERGER: I don't have that Chairperson, and that is perhaps because I have discarded the other one as being a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: There isn't any, so are you satisfied that this is one and the same statement?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So we can discard this last one?  Okay, very well.   I am told there is a further statement, Hendrik Johannes Geldenhuys, A1220, that would be L15, L16.  Would that be the last statement?

MR BERGER: Yes, that is correct, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Does everyone have all those Exhibit numbers?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Mr Chairperson, but if there is going to be reference and the witness is going to refer to some of these statements, he hasn't got a copy of the statements.  The witness hasn't got a copy of the statements, but we will see if we can cope by sort of assisting the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Khanyile, there is a statement, this is L15 and L16 of a Mr Hendrik Johannes Geldenhuys.  He was a Security Guard at Metal Box.  This is Metalbox on Nobel Boulevard, well it is on Nobel Boulevard and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Nobel Boulevard is that road of firms that you spoke about yesterday.
	This Mr Geldenhuys saw an SADF Buffel drive along Nobel Boulevard from east to west, in other words from Slovo Park towards kwaMadala hostel, before he heard any shots being fired from Boipatong.  He says that after the first shot, the Buffel rode back towards Cape Gate and thereafter, says Mr Geldenhuys, screaming and shooting was heard from Boipatong.
	I can also just tell you that Mr Geldenhuys was doing foot patrols from gate 1 to gate 2 of Metal Box, that is from Frikkie Meyer to Nobel and back.  He started his shift, well he started the foot patrols from a quarter to eight that evening.
	Now my point is this, he doesn't hear any screaming and shooting until after the first shot, and he sees the Buffel coming from the direction of Slovo Park, before he hears the first shot.  That is why I am suggesting to you Mr Khanyile, that the Army was indeed present in the vicinity of Boipatong before the first shots were fired.   Do you wish to comment on that?

VINCENT KHANYILE: As I have explained yesterday, that I only saw soldiers when we were moving out of Boipatong.  At no time did I see Police or soldiers, I again saw them at the gate when we arrived at kwaMadala hostel, they were talking to Mr Mthembu.  That was the only two instances where I saw the soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, when we last said there was some indication that we were going to get a map, depicting this whole area, do you know what has become of that?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I have been given rather startling information and that is that the Exhibits and this map was apparently one of those Exhibits that my learned friend was talking about, Exhibits have vanished and that they are neither in Bloemfontein nor in Pretoria.
	I don't know whether my learned friend has any further information.  That is what we were informed by Mr Wessel Janse van Rensburg.

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I have no further information Mr Chairperson.  We could not find any Exhibits.  I just had the Exhibits that I used during the trial myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, what I will do, I will speak to my learned friend during the adjournment, because his Attorneys I would have thought as being the Attorneys of appeal, would have access to the Exhibits, but perhaps my learned friend could assist with his Exhibits.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, I acted in the trial as a pro deo counsel.  I at that stage didn't have an Attorney.  The appeal started as a pro deo appeal.  What happened after the trial, I don't know what happened to Exhibits, they were processed in the normal course.  I've got no knowledge.

MR BERGER: We will do our best to put together a map.  Mr Khanyile, you can't - you say that you have no knowledge of an SADF vehicle being in the vicinity of Nobel Boulevard, down Cape Gate way before the attack started?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I repeat and I say I deny that.

MR BERGER: Then there is an affidavit from Jakobus Daniel Venter, L1, he was doing a camp in Vaal Commando at the time.  He says that at some point he noticed 200 people in the veld opposite the Trek garage.  He says that the Buffel then went down to Cape Gate, made a U-turn and came back and when they came back, that this group had grown to about 500.
	He says one person in the group stood up, made a hand signal after which the rest of the group followed.  Does that sound familiar to you?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That never occurred, or it is not true.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that at no stage were you part of a group of 200 or 500 in the veld, opposite the Trek garage just outside of Boipatong, on the eastern side of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

VINCENT KHANYILE: The first time we met, it is before we reached the Trek garage, we didn't pass the Trek garage or via the Trek garage.  We were one group.