Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

MICHELLE ASHUA: When they came in, they came looking for Ashley.

MR PAPIER: And you informed them that Ashley wasn't there?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: What happened after that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: They also questioned me about the certain Mr Jacques Adonis?

MR PAPIER: Yes?  And thereafter?

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just have that name again?

MR PAPIER: Mr Jacques Adonis.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PAPIER: I understand that they proceeded to search the house thereafter, is that correct?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: And downstairs in the lounge you had a discussion with them?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: What was the nature of this discussion?

MICHELLE ASHUA: First of all they wanted to know where my mother was working and I just told them that my mother was working in Observatory.
	They then asked me who can go with me to go and identify him and then I asked who is him, and they responded by saying your brother Ashley.
	And they then said and I quote in Afrikaans "your mother didn't want to listen, now we shot him dead."

MR PAPIER: What happened thereafter?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I then asked them what happened to Ashley.

MR PAPIER: Were they able to answer that?

MICHELLE ASHUA: They refused to give me any information, they just said unfortunately they can't disclose any information and that I had to contact Captain Schuller at the Athlone police station, which I did.
	Mr Schuller then referred me to the Salt River State mortuary.  That is where I went to identify Ashley.

MR PAPIER: Now you also managed to ascertain the address at which this incident had occurred, is that correct?

MICHELLE ASHUA: that is correct.

MR PAPIER: What happened thereafter?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I then decided to go to this address at the evening of the 10th of July.

MR PAPIER: And I understand that was number 8, Albermarle ...

MICHELLE ASHUA: At 8 Albermarle in Hazendal.

MR PAPIER: Yes.  What did you observe when you got there?

MICHELLE ASHUA: We entered the house through the back.

MR PAPIER: Yes?

MICHELLE ASHUA: And when I got to the back of the house, just before I entered on the house, I saw there was some blood stains on the back stoep of the house.

MR PAPIER: Yes.  Now Ms Ashua, I have some photo's here, my learned colleague has seen them, he has no objection to me handing it in.
	I will show you these photo's and then you could just in fact indicate and explain to the Committee in relation to these photo's, okay?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Sure.

MR PAPIER: If you take a look at a photo marked Exhibit G1, is it G1 or G11 on top?

MICHELLE ASHUA: G7.

MR PAPIER: Oh, sorry, G7.  Now, I see that there is blood at the entrance to the house, is that the blood that you noticed when you arrived at that door?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Okay.  What happened thereafter?  I have just arranged that it be handed in Honourable Chair.
	Now, there would be a whole range or series of photo's we would be handing in, maybe with your leave, I could just arrange with one of the officials to show it to the witnesses and then hand it in to the Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's try and have a proper serial number for each photograph.

MR PAPIER: If I understand it, that would be Exhibit ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you mark this Exhibit G7?

MR PAPIER: G7, Honourable Chair is the photo's that have been used at the official inquest and the numbers that appear on top of the document, is the inquest Exhibit number.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?  So we will give them a number here, now.  Apparently the only Exhibit that has been handed in up to now, is a letter.

MR PAPIER: And the two affidavits.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, Annexures A and B.

JUDGE WILSON: Do these still form part of the inquest record?

MR PAPIER: It does, Honourable Commissioner.

JUDGE WILSON: I don't think we should mark them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, are you going to return them?

MR PAPIER: I understand from my learned friend that at some stage, they would be handing in the inquest record.  If that happens and if the original inquest record is handed in, then this would form part of that record.  If not, Honourable Chair, we could keep the inquest record intact and just refer to these photo's.

CHAIRPERSON: For the time being, you have shown a photograph which is numbered G7 and the witness has identified and we have seen that.  So we are going to record that the witness has identified a photograph numbered G7 and leave it at that.

MR PAPIER: As the Honourable Chair pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR PAPIER: Now, Ms Ashua, what did you do after you saw the blood at the door?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I then entered the house and at the entrance of the house was, I first entered through a door which led me into like a little lobby and then through the lobby, I entered into another door which leads me into the kitchen of the house.

JUDGE WILSON: Was there anyone at the house at the time you went there?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE WILSON: Who?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I believe it is a sister of the owner of the house.

CHAIRPERSON: We might perhaps just as well get the name of the owner.  Whose house was it?

MICHELLE ASHUA: A lady by the name of Thelma Ismail.

CHAIRPERSON: She was the occupant?  Did she live there?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes, Your Honour.

MR PAPIER: If we could just clarify that, Ms Ashua.  When you got to the house, you found a lady at the house?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes, that is right.

MR PAPIER: Did you know whether that occupant, that lady stayed there or did she in fact, or what was the purpose of her presence?

MICHELLE ASHUA: She introduced herself to me as the sister of Thelma and she wasn't staying at the house.

MR PAPIER: Is that what she said?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes.

MR PAPIER: And did she say what she was doing there?

MICHELLE ASHUA: She was busy cleaning up the - she was there to clean the blood and the place after the incident.

MR PAPIER: The house, yes?  And so fine, now, let me show you a photo marked LA1.  Does that photo somewhat indicate the lobby that you spoke about?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes, it does.

MR PAPIER: And there is a second door leading off the lobby?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is right.

MR PAPIER: Okay, and where does that door take you to?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Into the kitchen.

MR PAPIER: Okay.  If I understand you correctly, you proceeded through two doors. The first door, the entry door and then the second door into the kitchen?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: What did you see in the kitchen?

MICHELLE ASHUA: There is something that immediately attracted my attention, first of all I saw blood on the kitchen floor.   And it is actually a thick trail of blood on the kitchen floor, and then I also immediately noticed on the left side, on the left hand side of the kitchen, I also noticed blood splattered on the walls, on the left hand wall.

MR PAPIER: And is this the left hand wall in the kitchen?

MICHELLE ASHUA: In the kitchen.

MR PAPIER: What did you do thereafter?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I then followed the blood trail, which led me into the bathroom.

MR PAPIER: What do you mean when you say you followed the blood trail?  Was there more blood on the floor than the blood you saw in the kitchen?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes.

MR PAPIER: And can you describe this blood that you followed?  The trial that you followed?

MICHELLE ASHUA: In the middle of the kitchen was blood that was thick.

MR PAPIER: Yes.

MICHELLE ASHUA: And then a thinner trail led me to the bathroom

MR PAPIER: Was it just drops of blood that you followed or not?

MICHELLE ASHUA: No, it wasn't drops of blood, it was like a trail, like dragged, something that has been, blood that had been dragged.

MR PAPIER: Dragged?

MICHELLE ASHUA: To the bathroom.

MR PAPIER: And when you got to the bathroom, did you find anything there?