Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

MR BOTMA: When she was taken to the spot, was the jersey taken with you or with her to the spot?

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't remember about the jersey, perhaps we found it there where it was.  I don't remember about the jersey.

MR BOTMA: When you handed Donnie over to Thandekulo, was she still standing on her own feet or what was she doing?

ZAMA THUTHA: Donnie was standing on her own two feet.  Her lying on the ground, that happened much later when I saw, I only saw that on the photograph.

MR BOTMA: I couldn't follow you properly.  Did you take the money from the truck and put that in your pocket or on your person?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not take the money.

MR BOTMA: When you were searched, are you saying that no money was found in your possession, in your direct possession?

ZAMA THUTHA: No, but that's what the police said but they didn't find any money with me, this is what the police said though.

MR BOTMA: You told this Committee that the policeman who was sitting inside was one of those people assaulting you, was that at the scene of your arrest?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I saw him at the place where the girl had been killed.

MR BOTMA: Were you also then assaulted at the same place by the local people as well?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, that is correct.  The police handed us over to the people of the community.

MR BOTMA: And what did the people of the community say when they assaulted you?

ZAMA THUTHA: They said, they asked why we had killed a white person in the area.

MR BOTMA: Is that all they said?

ZAMA THUTHA: They had said a whole lot of other things, they swore at us.  I can't repeat that here but that was their main point.

MR BOTMA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOTMA

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment now and endeavour to start again at a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ZAMA THUTHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Despite the threats made yesterday, it seems likely that we will adjourn by 16H15 this afternoon but if the interpreters do feel they need a break before then, a short break, could they just let me know?

MR PRIOR: May I proceed Mr Chairman?
	Mr Thutha, was this the first operation you went on for APLA?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And it seems you were arrested on the same day, it was your only operation?

ZAMA THUTHA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: When had you joined APLA?

ZAMA THUTHA: In 1990.

MR PRIOR: Had you trained as a soldier from 1990 up until 1993, is that correct?

ZAMA THUTHA: Correct.

MR PRIOR: Where had you been based, where was your base camp or your training camp?

ZAMA THUTHA: In Zamba.

MR PRIOR: And who was your commander, your camp commander, do you know?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I do know him.

MR PRIOR: Well tell us his name please.

ZAMA THUTHA: Percy.

MR PRIOR: And you said on the 27th of August you were informed by Thandekulo for the first time that you were going on a mission to obtain a vehicle, is that correct?

ZAMA THUTHA: Thandekulo told me that I would meet with Maxomia, he then would tell me what we are going to do. I did not say that Thandekulo told me that we were going to fetch a car.

MR PRIOR: And that was in Umtata that he told you to join up with your co-applicant?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Did you belong to a regiment or a detachment?  Yes?

ZAMA THUTHA: Please explain that word to me.  Please ask the question again.

MR PRIOR: Did you not belong to a regiment?  If you were a military man then you must understand what a regiment is, a group of soldiers.

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I was, I did.

MR PRIOR: What was the name of the regiment?

ZAMA THUTHA: I have forgotten the name of the unit.

MR PRIOR: Who was your commander in that unit?

ZAMA THUTHA: It was Percy as I said.  I had changed, when I went to Umtata I changed from one unit to another.

MR PRIOR: Okay.  You left Percy's unit, to which unit did you then join or become attached?

ZAMA THUTHA: Thandekulo's unit in Umtata.

MR PRIOR: Did that have a name, that unit?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not take note of the name, if the unit had a name or not, I did not take note of that.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, can I just, to clear one little thing up, when did you come to Umtata and join Thandekulo's unit?

ZAMA THUTHA: In June.  I can't remember the date though.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Did you receive training in the use of automatic weapons like the R5, R4 rifle, AK47?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I did.

MR PRIOR: And did Thandekulo's unit have those weapons when you were in Umtata?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I want just your comment on this.  Something that bothers me is that you went on this important mission and you were given a homemade weapon, we haven't heard too much about it.  Did you regard that as a efficient enough weapon for your operation?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, because I made the weapon, I'm able to use them as well.

MR PRIOR: Is that a piece of pipe mounted on a wooden frame with a homemade trigger mechanism, a wire and a spring, in other words with a hammer that strikes the cartridge or is it a slingshot type of mechanism where the firing pin operates on a rubber band?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, you make your own hammer and the firing pin as well.  I made it myself, we did not buy anything.  I made the guns and they shoot better even than the ones you buy in the shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you keep this gun that you had made?  Was it in your possession?

ZAMA THUTHA: Some I had given to the army but this one I would get it from the army if I'm going out.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were issued it then for this operation?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I was given it that day, not at the place of, not the venue as such but they gave it to me on the way.  I had in my hands, they gave it to me, handed it over to me when we were going towards Xongoga.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand it, they gave you two rounds of ammunition.

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were those shotgun rounds?  Do you know what a shotgun round is as apposed to a solid point, like a ...[intervention]?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I know what a shogun is.

MR PRIOR: And did this homemade firearm that you made and that you had on that day, did it fire a shotgun cartridge?

ZAMA THUTHA: No, we used pumpgun bullets.

MR PRIOR: A shotgun cartridge, is that full of pellets or with a single lead point like a bullet for a rifle?

ZAMA THUTHA: Do you have the picture of pumpgun bullets in your mind?

MR PRIOR: Yes, like a pumpaction shotgun?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, yes, those ones.

MR PRIOR: Alright.   12 gauge?

ZAMA THUTHA: I beg your pardon?

MR PRIOR: Alright, I don't want to get into that.  I just want to ask you one aspect on the trial.  You agreed that you told the Trial Court that Thandekulo  had shot Mike Meyers at the truck and you also said that was not true, my question is, did you say that in order to minimise your role in that aspect of the operation?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I did do that.

MR PRIOR: Did you want to distance yourself from the shooting of Mike Meyers?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: And you also told the same Trial Court that Thandekulo also shot Donnie in the forest, was that also untrue?

ZAMA THUTHA: That was true.  As I have already said, some things were true that I said and some were not but that particular fact was true.

MR PRIOR: Now I understand your earlier evidence that you really had difficulty during that trial, some things that you said were right and some were incorrect, you had difficulty with the police who had assaulted you and the whole system, but why is it that you told a lie about Mike Meyers but yet you told the truth about Donnie?

CHAIRPERSON: Well wasn't it quite obvious why he was denying his liability, he was facing a charge of murder. He said he didn't do it, somebody else did it.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Well let me put this to you, was the reason that you also wanted to distance yourself from the killing of Donnie Meyers that you actually participated in that?