Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

GEORGE BIZOS: With due respect, Mr Chairman, the witness gave evidence before the Judge and a credibility finding in relation to a transaction in relation to an overall conspiracy of which this witness was the Head, is admissible.  What I asked the witness is whether it refers to him or whether this has been his modus operandi, and I will proceed to show what he did in other proceedings, Mr Chairman.  I submit that the question in relation to the credibility finding by another Tribunal is relevant and the question should go to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll allow the question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Does the opinion of the Judge of the modus operandi of the CCB operatives or all those connected with it, apply to you, Sir?

EDWARD WEBB: Chair, I gave evidence during that trial, what does the Judge say about me in that report, in his opinion?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well he says that everyone that is connected with the CCB is tarred with the same brush ...(intervention)

MR H DU PLESSIS: No, that is not correct, Mr Chairman, that is not what Mr Bizos has read out.  Perhaps he should read that out again before he puts that to the witness.  He spoke about the operatives ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR SIBANYONI: Your mike, Mr Bizos.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, the ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me ask you this.  You gave evidence before His Lordship, Mr Justice Stegman.  Don't nod your head, say yes.  Please.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you tell him the truth or did you lie to him?

EDWARD WEBB: I have already told the Chair this morning that in respect of my evidence for the Webster Inquest, I made a point at all times saying that we could not act within the borders of the country.  I told the Chairperson that that was not the full truth and I - I'm still answering, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, complete your answer, but try to actually answer my question, namely whether you lied to the Judge or not.

MR H DU PLESSIS: He's busy answering the question, Chair.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you admitting that you did it?  That you did not tell the truth to the Judge.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, can Mr Bizos just give the witness time to answer, he's still busy answering.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think he's already said that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

GEORGE BIZOS: So on your admission, whether the Judge had you specifically in mind or not, on your admission you were untruthful at the Webster Inquest.

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct, Chairperson, and that is why we are here today.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.  And did you put up your hand as confidently as you did this morning and say that you speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you cross your fingers on both occasions when you said that?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chair, it's not necessary for Mr Bizos to descend to those levels and to make certain insinuations to say that my client is lying blatantly to the Commission.  I object most strenuously.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think the crossing of fingers would nullify the taking of the oath in ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sure that it wouldn't, but for superstitious people it might, Mr Chairman, and we'll come to the superstitions that were attributed to Bishop Tutu.
	But let us - is that the only time that you lied under oath, or did you lie to His Lordship, Mr Justice Harms?

EDWARD WEBB: At the Harms Commission of Inquiry I also told a lie.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just one?

EDWARD WEBB: There it was also regarding the internal/external situation, which I've tried to explain it, plus at one stage they asked me what my powers were and I testified that even if a vehicle was to be burnt, I would go to higher authority to get approval.  Which is totally ridiculous and I have no excuse for that.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you also made a statement on oath before you gave evidence, that you lie in that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a written statement, Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: A written statement, yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chair, can Mr Bizos please tell my witness what he is referring to specifically.

EDWARD WEBB: Before the Harms Commission?

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you make a statement before you entered the witness box in the Harms Commission?

EDWARD WEBB: I read out my statement before the Harms Commission.

GEORGE BIZOS: So you must have made a statement?

EDWARD WEBB: That's what I'm saying, I read it, so I must have made it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you take the oath in your statement?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And were there lies in that statement?

EDWARD WEBB: You'll have to give me an opportunity to read through the statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

EDWARD WEBB: You'll have to give me the opportunity now to read through that statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well don't you remember whether you told the truth or not in your statement?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chairperson, with all due respect, if Mr Bizos can refer the witness specifically to what he's talking about, then the witness may have an opportunity to answer.  If he wants the witness to tell you whether that statement which he made at that stage was correct in all aspects, you'll have to adjourn so that he can read it and then come and tell you in what aspects it's not correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't want to have any kicks for touch.  The evidence that you gave to the Commission was the reading out of a statement.  You've already told us that the evidence that you gave, that is reading out that statement, contained falsehoods.  Does it not follow that the statement that you read out of, contained the same falsehoods?

EDWARD WEBB: Can I just hear the question again please.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was that you testified here that you lied when giving evidence before the Harms Commission.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also testified that when you were giving evidence before the Harms Commission you read from your statement.  Now the question from Mr Bizos is, does it not follow therefore, that the statement contained lies?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, I can't remember, but I remember during cross-examination before the Harms Commission, I told a lie and I think as far as my statement is concerned I can only recall the internal/external aspect.  I am not sure.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  We'll come to greater detail later, but I want to ask you, Sir, that you were a much decorated General, I think that you were awarded at least half a dozen high medals for the excellent work that you did in the Army.

EDWARD WEBB: All my medals I received before I became the Commanding Officer Special Forces, nothing afterwards.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I accept that and it's relevant to my question, my next questions.  What was the motive, your motive, for being untruthful to a Judge of the High Court or Supreme Court as he was then called, like Judge Harms, and being untruthful to a Judge of the High Court who was investigating the death of David Webster, what was the motivation, why did you lie?

EDWARD WEBB: In respect of what my powers were, I have no excuse, it was stupid of me.  I don't know whether I was tired of Mr Bertelsman's cross-examination or what the position was, but as far as the internal/external thing, I was trying to protect the Defence Force and the Army.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I want to take you back to '89/'90 in order to throw some light as to what the reason for this was.  Do you recall the allegations made that State terrorism existed, that is that the State had hit squads that killed people?  Do you remember those allegations being made?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you remember that President de Klerk and his predecessor, President Botha hotly denied, that the Security Forces had absolutely nothing to do with deaths, either inside or outside the country?  Do you recall that?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.