Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-16

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, I have approximately 300 members of staff at the moment.

MR MARTINI: Now in the employment of your staff, are you limited to race or is it an open policy?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairperson, we accept the same standards and norms that all the businesses accept, race and colour does not play a role at all, it's about qualifications.

MR MARTINI: Have you employed any former, past members of any political organisation in your present business?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is the case, I have certain members of the then Umkhonto weSizwe who are currently working for me and - yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you employed any former members of the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, I've learnt my lesson.

MR MARTINI: Mr van Zyl, there have also been suggestions that whilst you were in the CCB, the certain operatives - what were they called, the indirect operatives that you used, were gangsters and criminals, is there anything sinister employing - before I ask you that question, prior to joining the CCB, what did you do, where were you employed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: As I have already given evidence, I was a member of the South African Police Force, Police Service, and I was last at the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad.

MR MARTINI: Now in employing gangsters or criminals, is there anything sinister or is it normally something that one does in this type of business, or the Police when they use informers?  Do you go and look for squeaky-clean people or do you look for this type of person to provide information?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would like to explain it in the following manner, that when it comes to the gathering of information there is necessarily a very broad spectrum and there is a very big community from whom information can be gained, but when working with aspects like these, then one normally does not get your information from the church and then you would have to turn to the gutters and the badder structures to be able to get hold of your information.

MR MARTINI: You read in your evidence that you were given a vehicle when you joined the CCB, I'm not sure if you've given evidence as to what you did with it, but if you haven't, what did you do with the vehicle that you received from the CCB when you joined?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I gave it back.

MR MARTINI: Mr van Zyl, I just want to clarify how the projects were conducted.  Did you receive instructions to formulate plans to eliminate people for example, or were you given an instruction to formulate such a plan?  Just in summary, how did it work?  Because I understood from your evidence that your function was to gather information, so when it came to a point of having to eliminate a person, was that a decision you took?  Just explain how one arrives at that point within the organisation of the CCB at the time.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, our primary task was to maximally disrupt the enemy.  Our secondary task was to gather information.  If I can refer to the gathering of information, this was a normal daily task, if I can put it like that.  Information was gathered from the structures that we worked with, in other words the unaware members, such information was put in writing and then in the prescribed manner was sent through to the co-ordinator, who would then process this information.  And then it was the duty of the Co-ordinator and also the Regional Manager, to give specific instructions to us as operators concerning when a specific project had to be registered or when a specific instruction had to be executed.

MR MARTINI: But in essence, did you supply information and from that - who verified that information?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: As I've said already, the information was passed to the Co-ordinator and it was the Co-ordinator's function that he would with the information that he got from our structures, to verify such information with the structures that the CCB had access to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let's take an example, let's take Mr Omar's case, how did you get or under what circumstances did you yourself personally first learn of the name, Dullah Omar and who from?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The first time I heard of Dullah Omar was when his particulars were given to me by one of my agents, Peaches ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, Peaches, for what reason would he give you Mr Omar's name?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, as I've given evidence, they were asked to gather information regarding persons that we saw as the enemy of the State and people were connected with banned organisations etcetera, and as the time went on, Peaches gave me the particulars of Adv Omar and those particulars I then gave to the Co-ordinator, who was Wouter Basson.  And at a later stage, I mean there was no - I had nothing in mind with this information up to a later stage when the Co-ordinator came back to me and he said that the information regarding Adv Omar was confirmed and they want me to do a pre-study in terms of the elimination of this person.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you ever learn what Peaches' real name was?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I knew him as Peaches Gordon, I think Gordon was his surname.  Edward Gordon was his correct name.

MR MARTINI: But what I'm getting at, the ultimate instruction to come up with a plan to eliminate today's Minister, at the time, Mr Dullah Omar, that instruction was given to you, or did you take that decision yourself to formulate a plan?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, we never - the instruction to eliminate someone or the instruction to burn something always came via the Co-ordinator or via the Regional Manager, it was not an initiative from an operator like myself.

MR MARTINI: And in respect of the Early Learning Centre I take it the same principle applied?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And with the Bishop Tutu incident?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The same principle applies.  This was just a normal order that I received and that I executed.

MR MARTINI: You didn't decide - we've heard suggestions by Mr van Zyl that this was a "grappie", you didn't take it upon yourself and say "well I'm going to go and play this joke on Bishop Tutu", and went and placed this foetus in his garden?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairperson, I did not see it as a joke, to me it was an instruction like any other instruction and I executed it as it was required of me.

MR MARTINI: In respect of Gavin Evans you said it was not one of your projects, what did you mean by that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The Gavin Evans incident, the Regional Manager, Staal Burger, informed me that the Evans project was the project of Chap Maree and that the project had already been presented to the Regional Manager and that it was an approved project and I was simply requested by him to use Peaches Gordon and another person to execute this project.  So what I am telling you, Mr Chairperson, is that I was not present with the presentation of this project to the Chairperson.  As I understood it coming from the Regional Manager, Chap did this presentation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on that before it slips my mind, we heard that that was a Gauteng project, but what were you doing about it in the Cape then, why were you involved down here?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was Peaches involved down in the Cape if it was a Gauteng project?  Was Mr Evans from Gauteng or was he from Cape Town?