Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

CHAIRPERSON: Entry number 9 or 14 on the bottom of the right hand corner.

UNKNOWN: I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Departure, Constable M.N. Ngo to South African Police Security Head Office Pretoria for interview.

UNKNOWN: May you please give me the serial number?

CHAIRPERSON: It is the bottom right hand corner of page 105.  Departure, 07h20 in the morning.

UNKNOWN: I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see that entry?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: That he was going to the Security Head Office for an interview?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Look at page 108.  Entry number 42.

UNKNOWN: I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Constable Ngo to the South African Police Security Head Office, Pretoria for an interview.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: So here were two interviews a week apart?

UNKNOWN: I see those entries.  There are two.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ADV MEMANI: Now, does this remind you then that Mr Ngo applied for transfer to Security Branch in Pretoria?

UNKNOWN: It doesn't remind me that way, because Security Branch may call me for an interview.  It may interview you about different issues, about your work, about any other thing.  They do that with any other Department.

ADV MEMANI: ... that I refer to in this line, spoke of him going there to collect forms, application forms?  Therefore by necessary implication when he went for interviews now, it was in respect of his job at Security Branch.

UNKNOWN: I would not dispute what you are saying, because if I dispute that or agree with that, I would make a mistake.  I would go there and collect particular forms which are confidential, because I wanted to work with confidential issues without even working there at the Security Branch.

ADV MEMANI: His Lordship has already referred you to entry 42.  If I may have a moment My Lord.  I want to refer you to entry number 71 at page 112, dated Tuesday, 1988-04-19.
	That entry speaks of you issuing a firearm to Ngo and explaining to him the provisions of the Firearms' Act.

UNKNOWN: May you please repeat the entry number?

ADV MEMANI: 112, entry number 71, the date is the 19th of April 1988, at 07h30.

UNKNOWN: I found that.

ADV MEMANI: Do you remember issuing the firearm to him?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.

ADV MEMANI: For what purpose did you issue the firearm to him?

UNKNOWN: At the barracks we handle guns to protect the barracks in case it is attacked.

ADV MEMANI: He had been there for over a year and there is no entry that he was issued with a firearm except this one and another entry when he was going to raid someone who was misbehaving at the barracks?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, you are not compelled, you spoke of issues where I would give him a gun.  I was not compelled to give him a gun all the time, the time where I feel that he should be given a gun, I make an entry of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could I go back to something which I should have put when I was putting these two interviews with the Security Branch?
	Will you look at page 86 please, entry 136, top of the page?

UNKNOWN: Which page?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 86.  On the right hand side of the page, on the top of the page, 136.

UNKNOWN: I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Not on duty, and it noted that Constable Ngo had not reported for duty at 07h15 as he should have done, and that you had received no reports about his absence, and that the matter would be investigated and taken up with the Commanding Officer of Unit 19.  Do you see that?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: And then at entry 138, at ten o'clock on the morning of the 22nd of February, Constable Ngo arrived and reported to the barracks that at six o'clock he had reported to Security Police Head Office to see Captain Loots about his transfer to the Security Branch, Pretoria.

UNKNOWN: I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: So that is a report that he made to you at ten o'clock on the Monday, the 22nd of February, that he was discussing his transfer to the Security Branch in Pretoria?

UNKNOWN: I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you must have known that he was being transferred to the Security Branch, mustn't you, if he told you that he had seen Captain Loots to discuss his transfer?

UNKNOWN: I see that here.

ADV MEMANI: As the Lordship pleases, let me take him to the  next entry that I would like to deal with My Lord.   If I could have just one more moment, My Lord.  If you look at entry number 115, this is now the second book, I am sorry, you see the occurrence book starting at 118 to 274, and I am referring you to page 128, entry number 115, dated 25 May 1988.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see page 128.

ADV MEMANI: And that entry says that at 07h30 a black male Madrad, at the office and reported that Ngo has gone to Security Headquarters Pretoria, reason unknown.  The matter will be investigated, can you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do see that.

ADV MEMANI: So as His Lordship has put it to you, you must have known about Ngo's association with the Security Branch?

UNKNOWN: Ngo is a policeman, I would not say I knew him association with them.  He is a policeman, he was supposed to have an association with them.

ADV MEMANI: I am sure that as the person directly responsible for him, you would have asked him why he had been absent and what he had been doing at Security Branch?

UNKNOWN: It was not necessary because the Security Branch Unit was not different from Unit 19.

ADV MEMANI: You made an entry that you would investigate the matter.  That means that you would have enquired from him and you would have enquired from the superiors at Security Branch to verify.

UNKNOWN: It was not necessary, I did not see it necessary that when a person when to Security Branch to ask him on his return, what he was doing, and I would not even send the superiors to investigate.  I just wrote that he was not present.  When he came back, I ask him and he gives me a reply where he was, I have to accept that and write in the book, not to ask him any further.

ADV MEMANI: This is my point that you would have asked him why he went there?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What did you want to investigate?  What did you want to investigate about his position?

UNKNOWN: I am referring to an information about a person who was not a policeman.  It should be indicated the place where he went to.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I still don't understand what it is that you had in mind to investigate?

UNKNOWN: I think you will understand it very well now.  When a person left and then the message came in that he was not present, then you would ask him where were you at this time, because it was reported that you were not present, then he would give his reason for being transport or any other reason.
	Now, it would be accepted that this person was delayed because of the transport, and it won't be reported.  Now, he went to the Security Branch, then it was not necessary to ask him any further if he told me that he met Loots, he was at the Security Branch, it was not necessary to ask him any further.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So all you wanted to investigate, or rather the reason you wanted to investigate was that you were given this information by somebody who was not a policeman, or who was not supposed to give it to you.  Is that what you mean by investigating the matter?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It looks like you used very strong words to express what you wanted to do, because one gets the impression that when you want to investigate, one gets the impression that you really want to go into the matter, including as to why he went there to the Security Branch and so on and so forth.
	You can continue Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: There is an entry which has escaped my flagging.  According to that entry, you told Mr Ngo that he should report at his Commanding Officer at Unit 19 and that he should be in uniform.