Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-13

MXOLISI DUMA: It is because we had firearms concealed in our car and they were not licensed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Duma, listen to the question, I'm trying to help you, I'm not trying to catch you out.  You were part of a group of people, some of whom shot at the police, do I understand you correct?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All I'm asking is, was that the time you were driving that motor vehicle escaping from these police?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes, I was driving this vehicle when I was escaping from the police.

CHAIRPERSON: So although you never actually shot yourself, you were part of that group?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: You accepted responsibility for everything that happened on that trip, do I understand you correct?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you needed these weapons, as far as you were concerned, to defend that community and therefore the police were shot at?  You couldn't allow the police to get hold of those weapons, is that the position?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes, that was the position.

CHAIRPERSON: There was only one count of attempted murder that you were convicted of?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that happen, not the conviction, the incident.

MXOLISI DUMA: That happened in 1990, November.

CHAIRPERSON: November.

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes, November.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were transporting weaponry?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes, I was asked to transport people who were going to fetch weapons at that particular time.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was successful, you did collect weapons?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes, we did a successful, except for the time when we came across the policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you came across the policemen there were weapons in the car?  That is how I understand your application.

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you I understand you correctly that when you were asked to assist by transport, you willingly agreed and that was your contribution to the political struggle?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes, because I knew the people who were asking me this and I also knew their involvement in the community and I agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: When the police tried to stop your car, you drove past, you didn't accede to that command, do I understand you correctly?

MXOLISI DUMA: When the police tried to stop the car one of the people inside said: "There are the police, don't stop in case they stop you", and indeed I drove past.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you knew it was the police yourself, without being told, would you have stopped or would you have driven on on your own?

MXOLISI DUMA: As for me I wouldn't have stopped because at the time police were not faithful, I mean you could not trust police.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your sentence?

MXOLISI DUMA: I was given 8, 9 years.

CHAIRPERSON: 5 for attempted murder?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Two for possession of firearms?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And 2 for possession of ammunition?

MXOLISI DUMA: Very true, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they ordered to run concurrently or were they separate?

MXOLISI DUMA: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Were those separate sentences ordered to run concurrently or were they kept separate?

MXOLISI DUMA: Different times.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're only serving that - I see you're in prison clothes, are you still serving that particular 9 year sentence?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes, 9 years is part of the entire sentence that I'm serving.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you serving other parts of sentence?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  What for?

MXOLISI DUMA: The one case that I was convicted for was being suspected of robbing the bank and attempting to steal a car.

CHAIRPERSON: Those are independent acts, separate from your application?

MXOLISI DUMA: Yes, those had nothing to do with this amnesty application.  The other 10 years is still on appeal at court.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Yes thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Any other bits of evidence, Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: No extra evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, have you got any evidence?

MS THABETE: No evidence, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we done with the evidence?

MS THABETE: We are, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: Committee Members, in this particular case one doesn't need to dwell much into the argument because most of the points have been raised, the link to the political objectives and they clearly qualify under the Act, so one doesn't need really to dwell much on this.  That is all I wish to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you deal with one aspect.  He's made application in his, if I may term it "man in the street" way in respect of unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition, but he may be guilty of some other offences covered by the Arms and Ammunition Act, for example transporting and distribution maybe.  Do you think we can include that should we lean towards granting amnesty?

MR MOTEPE: I think that will be proper in case in future such charges might be brought against him, that that will be proper now to deal with even though it was not specifically mentioned, but they are tied together.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.  It will be based on the same facts, isn't it?

MR MOTEPE: That is correct.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, have you any argument?

MS THABETE: No argument.  This should concluded this matter, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your attitude towards the application?

MS THABETE: Mr Chair, my attitude is that from the evidence of the applicant clearly it appears that he associated himself with the members of the community who were protecting the community and by providing transport it was his contribution.  And for the charges that he has been convicted of he has associated himself with it and my attitude would be to have no objection if amnesty were to be granted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, we are going to reserve our decision in this matter and we will finalise in due course.

MR MOTEPE: If I may ask, is it in both matters?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR MOTEPE: As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused if you want to leave.