Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

MR BERGER: Not only her, there was nine month old Erin Matope who was stabbed in the head and killed.   My question to you is why, if you were attacking the ANC?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What you should understand, Mr Berger, is that a snake gives birth to another snake.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could that please be repeated, I didn't hear the answer in the uproar?

INTERPRETER: The witness said a snake gives birth to another snake.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Brink?

MR BERGER: And I take it that you would give the same answer for five year old Agnes Malindi who was killed, five year old Poppie Mbatha who was killed, eight year old Sibusiso Mzibe who was killed, seven year old Mthombe Vikile Nonjoli who was killed, same answer for all of them, "a snake gives birth to another snake", and that's why they were killed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, what you should know is that when we went to attack, we went to attack the ANC, maybe the people you mention were also ANC people.

MR BERGER: How can a nine month old baby be a member of the ANC responsible for killing IFP members, how on earth can that be possible?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Maybe you don't know what the situation was like at the time.   I don't know how you want me to clarify this any further.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I'm talking about a nine month old child.   Please listen to my question.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, we also have children, we also have babies, nine month old babies, who were burnt in the township.

MR BERGER: Can you give me the name of the nine month old baby that was burnt?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not, because families would come to the hostel and say that they were being terrorised in the township.

MR BERGER: There was no nine month old baby that was killed in the township by members of the Self Defence Unit or any ANC member, the only nine month old baby that was killed was Erin Matope, who was killed by you and your fellow attackers.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: In other words, Mr Berger, if I have a baby and my organisation, IFP, where will this child belong to, or this baby belong to?

MR BERGER: So, if I understand your evidence correctly, Mr Mthembu, it didn't matter how young the babies were, they were to be killed because it was possible that their parents might have been ANC members, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, ANC people were attacked and they had children, young children who were innocent, therefore if a baby was killed, that could have happened because of the situation in the township and the community at large.

MR BERGER: The babies and the young children were killed because their parents might have been ANC supporters, is that correct, because, as you put it, a snake gives birth to another snake?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I have responded to your question.

MR BERGER: Well then let me ask you this, Mr Mthembu, if it was your desire to kill all the snakes in Boipatong, no matter even if the snakes were nine months old, why do you say that you hid two little children under the bed in the house that you went into?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, what I expressed by a snake giving birth to another snake was a idiomatic expression.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you can't run away from that answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Put the question to him please again, he didn't understand well.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee, when I asked you why was a nine month old baby killed, you said, "A snake gives birth to another snake".   If that is so, why did you not kill the two little snakes that you found, or that you say you put under the bed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: But I also have children as well.

MR BERGER: Well then your answers are not making sense.  I'm going to ask you one more time and then I'm going to move on... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you want to establish from this witness?   The record speaks for itself.   People were killed there, regardless of their age, whether they were young or old, it didn't matter, they were there to kill anyone.   His evidence is also that he personally decided to tell those two young children to get under the bed because he didn't want to kill them, because as he has told us, he has children too.   That's what appears in the record.   It seems to me you can't argue with the witness, it's an argument that's being addressed to us.   The record speaks for itself, the point has been made.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, also from a point of view of clarity, can we get on the record whether or not it's Mr Berger's instruction that the applicant was responsible for the death of the nine month old child and the, I think it was a three year old, whether he was responsible himself, personally responsible?   I'd like that on record.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I don't understand Mr Brink's objection.

CHAIRPERSON: But what he wants to find out is, are your instructions that the applicant, that is Mthembu, killed the nine month old?

MR BERGER: No, I don't have those instructions, but... (intervention).

MR BRINK: Thank you, that was all I wanted, because if it was suggested that he was responsible for those two murders of  those two children, then of course no doubt he has evidence to that effect, but if he's not suggesting it, then it makes things clearer.

MR BERGER: But, Chairperson, it's not to say that Mr Mthembu did not kill those children.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's a matter for argument.   All that Mr Brink is raising is raising at the factual level whether is it intended to be alleged that Mr Mthembu killed those two young children you mentioned, and your answer is no, he didn't, you don't have those instructions.

MR BERGER: No, but Mr Mthembu is legally responsible for the death of those two children.

CHAIRPERSON: That's a matter for argument, you know that, Mr Berger, that's a matter for argument.   If you want to put it to him that in law he's legally responsible, then by all means do that.

MR BERGER: Mr Brink, I can also put on record that we're not in a position to say who killed who either in respect of any of the applicants.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, it wasn't by way of an objection, it was to get clarity, that was all, because the way the cross-examination was going seemed to suggest that this applicant was responsible for those deaths and the snake killing the snake and that sort of thing, but now it's been made clear, that's the end of the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the line of questioning, it seems to suggest that even though he did not personally kill any one of the other persons, he is nevertheless legally responsible for their death.  Is that the point you want to make?

MR BERGER: That is the point, but... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps I should get direction from the Committee.   Am I not supposed to examine this particular witness on the deaths of old people, young people and babies, because I can't say that this witness actually killed all of them?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no-one is suggesting that.   All that we are saying to you, all that Mr Brink was saying to you is to indicate whether it is alleged, it would be alleged by the victims that he personally killed those persons.   If that is not the allegation, you are free to cross-examine the witness in regard to his legal responsibility to do that.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, if any of the residents of Boipatong were able to identify a particular person as killing a particular loved one, then I'm sure they would have given evidence at the trial to that effect.   The conviction was on the basis of common purpose precisely because people cannot say who killed who, and that was apparent at the trial stage.   Well I've asked you about the children... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still remember the question that was put to you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: May you please repeat the question?