Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MS MOLOISANE: Who formed this Self Defence Unit?  I mean what I want is somebody in authority who formulated this unit.

JOHN RADEBE: May you please repeat your question.

MS MOLOISANE: How were these units formed, by whom?

JOHN RADEBE: They were not there before.  There was an Inkatha group or Inkatha groups which were killing people in Sebokeng communities, to a point where people went outside for MK trainings.  They came up with the idea and they said we are present and we are here as MK cadres.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to stop you there.  I'm not on the same page as you, Ms Moloisane.  You are now asking him questions about something which is completely different to what he was busy testifying to.  He was right in the middle of giving us testimony in respect of a particular incident and you're questioning elicits information which is completely different to what he was still busy testifying.  It's going to play havoc with our record.  However, he is also not responding to your questions.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, we will tackle this at a later stage.  I will ask the applicant to proceed with the events as they happened on the 15th of April, on the 15th of August '93.
	Mr Radebe, let's go back to the events of the 15th of August 1993 outside the tavern.  After having shot Elsie Mokoena twice, what happened?

JOHN RADEBE: She ran away.  There was a two-roomed house around the tavern, she ran into the two-roomed house.  Hapile ran inside the tavern.  I had two pistols with, on me.  I took another pistol and gave it to Mkhwanazi.  A 7.62.  Mkhwanazi chased the one who entered the tavern, then I chased the one who ran inside the 2-roomed house.  I found people inside that 2-roomed house.  When I looked ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Try and be slow again Mr Radebe, sorry.  We must plead with you, we have to take notes of what you are saying and we've got to make sure that there are no errors in the interpretation.  If you don't speak in a slower fashion your evidence will not be interpreted properly by the translators.  We don't want you to have any errors in the evidence that will be translated by the interpreters to us, so try and give your evidence at a pace that will enable him to translate properly everything that you say in Sesotho.  Now you were still saying that you had two pistols in your possession and that you gave one to Mkhwanazi and that Mkhwanazi ran after Hapile whilst you ran after Elsie.  Do I have that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then let's proceed.

JOHN RADEBE: Whilst I was chasing Elsie she has already entered the 2-roomed house.  When I entered at the kitchen I found people inside that house.  Then I requested them to show where the person who ran into that house is.  They said she did not enter in that particular room and I told them that I saw her running inside that house and that I would search for her and shoot her in the house.  When they saw that I was serious they instructed her to get out of the room.  She went outside, then I pointed a gun at her, then I pointed her to the direction where she should take.  I returned to the point where we were before, next to the gate, then I found that Abraham Mkhwanazi went outside to wait for me.  Abraham Mkhwanazi, I found him pointing a gun at Hapile.  We took them to Zone 12.  On our way to Zone 12 I discovered that the guns we had had no bullets, then I came with an idea that we should start at Mr Sipapo's place, that is a person who was helping us in that regard. ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat the name for me please.

JOHN RADEBE: Mr Sipapo.  Sipapo.

ADV BOSMAN: Is he also known as Stanley?

JOHN RADEBE: No, that's not the one.

CHAIRPERSON: You said something about Mr Sipapo having helped you.  In what respect?

JOHN RADEBE: He was helping us with the bullets.  We felt that that is a place where we would want to go to get with the comrades, and then we don't have transport, that's the one, the person who was helping us with transport all the time, but in many instances he used to help us with the ammunition because he had a licensed firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Sipapo's residence on your way and road to Zone 12?  Did you have to go past Mr Sipapo's place?

JOHN RADEBE: It's not on the way to Zone 12, but it's not far from the route we took.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you deliberately take a different route in order to go to Sipapo's place for your ammunition?

JOHN RADEBE: It was only myself and Mkhwanazi who took a different route.  We instructed the others to wait for us somewhere, and then we took a different route to Sipapo's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you've not stated that in your evidence.  At what stage did you decide to go to Sipapo's place for ammunition, and where exactly did you leave the others, and what do you mean by the others?

JOHN RADEBE: When I say others I mean Hapile Ndumo, Elsie Mokoena and Letsolo.  I left another gun to Letsolo.  I went with Abraham Mkhwanazi to Sipapo's place, because they were not aware that we did not have the ammunition with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where did you leave Letsolo and the two ladies, at the gate next to the tavern?

JOHN RADEBE: It's a long distance from the tavern.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that place have a name, like in terms of a Zone?

JOHN RADEBE: Tavern is in Zone 8, then we left them at Small Farm.  We went to Mr. Sipapo ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sir, before you go on.  Where did you leave them?  At some house, or in an open place, or in the middle of the road?

JOHN RADEBE: We left them at the road because it was dusk at the time.  Then I went with Mr Mkhwanazi to Mr Sipapo's place to look for ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't Sipapo's place also at Small Farm?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just how far from Sipapo's place were the ladies and Letsolo?

JOHN RADEBE: Approximately 300 metres.

CHAIRPERSON: Just be precise when you give evidence because you now give us an impression that they were left quite far away from where Sipapo was staying.  You may proceed.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, before we, before he proceeds,

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, before we proceed, I just want to draw the Committee's attention to the fact that the applicant said Ntjolo, not Letsolo.  Referring to Borman Ntjolo, former accused, co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

JOHN RADEBE: We went to Mr Sipapo's place.  We found that he has only 9 mm ammunition, he doesn't have ammunition for a 7.65.  We went back to Ntjolo and together with the two women we took the direction toward Zone 12 to the office.  On our way to the office, because I knew that in Zone 12 these people are known, it may happen that one informer or a spy would inform the police, then I decided that we should pass at comrade Kraai's place, who is Samuel Neti.  We found Samuel Neti at the stockvel.  I entered inside and I found him and we went outside together.  I informed him that we caught those people who were wanted.  When we talk Bopi we talk about Ntjolo.  I found that Ntjolo is alone and then we should go to Zone 12.  I requested him that he should remain so as to guard these two women, so that we should go to Zone 12.

CHAIRPERSON: May I get clarity?  In your evidence you state that because the ladies in question were well known ...(inaudible) and because you knew that there could be a spy that could go to the police, presumably to inform the police about your abduction, you decided to go to Samuel Neti's place.

JOHN RADEBE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of going to his place?