Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I will tell you what I know, and these things took place a long time ago.  It is difficult to recall them all.  I am trying my best to certify.

ADV MEMANI: And you are being deliberately untruthful.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I am telling you what I know.

ADV MEMANI: I'll tell you why.  Initially when I put it to you that there was a Mazda 4 X 4, you were definite and you said: "No, there was no Mazda 4 X4, there was an Izuzu".  Now when I get closer to Kotze and I tell you that the vehicle belonged to Kotze in fact, suddenly you do not know cars.

UNKNOWN: According to the evidence on page 59, Ngo's evidence, he said
"We took a Datsun made car, a 4 X 4"
So there was no - I can't find an Izuzu or a Nissan or whatever other make, I only see this Datsun car in his evidence.

ADV MEMANI: I'm indebted to you Mr Chair.
	Now, do you remember the Datsun 4 X 4 that was driven by Sergeant Kotze?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not remember it.

ADV MEMANI: Now, do you want us seriously to believe you when you say that you do not know cars?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: As I've mentioned, I left that place at the end of 1985, there were many cars but the bakkie that I remember is an Izuzu, I remember it well.  And that division did not have many bakkies, most of them were vehicles.

ADV MEMANI: Did you ever have any difference with Ngo?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I think before we went for break I told that I did not know Ngo, he was a distance from me.

ADV MEMANI: Should I accept it that there was not ill-blood, no bad blood between yourself and Mr Ngo? There were no ill feelings, you had no differences at all?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you see, you ...[End of Tape 3, side B - no follow-on sound]
	Ngo must be telling the truth then when he says that they lent a truck, a 4 X 4 to them.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is lies Sir.

ADV MEMANI: He had no reason to falsely implicate you in this.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I am shocked really, and this really has shocked me to be included in an issue that is far from me.

ADV MEMANI: You see this is detail which is unlikely to be fabricated if you take into account that Ngo said that he received his instructions from Shaw at Fountain.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not know those things.  If you are given instructions, there would not be many people called, you'd be called all by yourself.  I do not know anything really.

ADV MEMANI: And on your version you were not working with him so you wouldn't come naturally in the scheme of things if you wanted to falsely implicate people.

INTERPRETER: Can you repeat your question Sir, the interpreter did not get the last part.

ADV MEMANI: You would not fall naturally into the scheme of things if Ngo wanted falsely to implicate people.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I would not know if he falsely blamed people.

ADV MEMANI: Secondly, if Ngo were malicious he would have implicated you in a more serious fashion than just ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, isn't this really a matter for argument?

CHAIRPERSON: You see you are talking it that we accept all Ngo's evidence but Ngo says this all happened at Botshabelo at a time when this witness said he was stationed in Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Chair, I will get instructions to clarify the issue.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he said, he's given evidence about this.  He said
"and drove it to Botshabelo where we left behind ...[indistinct] in Bloemfontein.  On arrival we parked the car among those stolen vehicles in Botshabelo, from there we went to report at the security branch office to Adjudant Mbanjani and Adjudant Mamome said: We brought the car, it's outside"
- it's the Botshabelo office. That's the evidence he gave in chief.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Chair, what is the Chair's remark then?

CHAIRPERSON: This witness has told us that he was on duty in Bloemfontein from the beginning of 1986 and you haven't challenged that at all have you?

ADV MEMANI: No, we haven't Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And if he was in Bloemfontein, he couldn't be giving them a car in Botshabelo could he?

ADV MEMANI: Isn't that a matter which we should be dealing with at a later stage Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: We should deal with it at some stage before you go on putting this that: "Ngo says this and Ngo says that.  Ngo wouldn't falsely implicate you"

ADV MEMANI: I am entitled to put that Mr Chair, it's my client's version.

CHAIRPERSON: You can argue it, as my brother said.  The witness has said he didn't have anything to do with this incident.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Now, Mr Chair, may I take instructions?
	Mr Mbanjani, I've just been instructed that although you may have been stationed at Bloemfontein you would have been working at Botshabelo in fact at that stage.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: In 1986 just after I had the transferring I came back to Bloemfontein and I became permanent in Bloemfontein.  I will quote some of my commanding officers words when he transferred me to Bloemfontein.  He said: "You have worked for a long time outside, you have been T'Banachu and Botshabelo.  I want you to come and work here at the offices so that you can rest", I did not go out.

ADV MEMANI: I've been told that you could have been given a specific instruction to be at Botshabelo at the relevant time as well, even if you were stationed at Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was given instructions to go to Botshabelo so they could borrow a car that somebody else was driving?  Is that what you're putting to him now?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, if - it seems to me - my instructions are that if a particular operation had to be carried out and it would have been necessary for him to be at Botshabelo, he would have been told to go to Botshabelo.

CHAIRPERSON: But was it necessary, they just wanted to get the car that you've told us Sergeant Kotze drove?  He had nothing to do with that car, it was the car usually driven by Sergeant Kotze that they wanted to borrow.  Isn't that the whole thing you're asking about?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, I'm asking him about that car.  An arrangement could have been made that he must be there so that he can hand it over to them if it were deemed necessary for the purposes of the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ADV MEMANI: Now, what is your comment?  If I may remind you, what I put to you was, I am told that you could have been told to go to Botshabelo if it had been deemed necessary that you should be at Botshabelo on that day.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not true.

UNKNOWN: Were you in fact told, in the beginning of February 1989, to go to Botshabelo to arrange for a 4 X 4 Datsun vehicle to be given to Mr Ngo?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Not at all, I've never received such instructions.

ADV MEMANI: If I may just have a moment M'Lord.  Those are my questions M'Lord.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR VISSER: No re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbanjani, during the course of your evidence you were asked about the door at the entrance to your office which led onto a passage which again led to a passage known as Violent Street, do you remember that?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I remember that evidence.

MR BRINK: When you arrived at Botshabelo you were placed in one office, is that correct?  I beg your pardon, when you arrived at Bloemfontein, at Fountain.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That's correct.

MR BRINK: And when you arrived at Fountain, was there a sign on the wall of this passage known as Violent Street showing that it was called Violent Street, a sign similar to that above the main chair on the ...[indistinct] to your right, on a printed wooden board or something of that sort?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I can see that printing.  Yes, there was a sign there.