Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

INTERPRETER: Please, may you repeat your question?

MR BERGER: I am sorry, when you returned from work on the 18th, you found Themba Khosa addressing a meeting in the stadium?

VINCENT KHANYILE: If I remember well, it seems to be true.

MR BERGER: At what time did you knock off work and at what time did you return to the hostel?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I knocked off at about five in the evening.  I arrived at the hostel at about six o'clock or something to six.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Mr Khanyile, that you are once again protecting Mr Themba Khosa?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Sir, what I would like to explain briefly is I am here to ask for amnesty for things which I know, I am not here to ask for amnesty t implicate people saying they did this and that, meanwhile they didn't, with the aim of getting myself or my application approved.
	I am saying again I never found or heard or found Themba Khosa at a meeting or heard him speaking what you said he said.  If he said something, it might be before I arrived at the meeting.

MR BERGER: What did he say when you were at the meeting?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I would say sir, this was not - it wasn't a real meeting.  There were questions from the Police who were investigating about the incident.

MR BERGER: Was there a time in the meeting where Themba Khosa asked the workers apart from the Police, in other words not in the presence of the Police, is it true that you are responsible for this attack, did that happen?

VINCENT KHANYILE: No, I never heard.

MR BERGER: Can you remember actual issues which were discussed at that meeting?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Sir, the things which were asked which I can still remember is where were we during the 17th, whether we know anything and that Police wanted us to assist them in that investigation.  Those are the things that I still remember.

MR BERGER: What time did that meeting end?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chair. Mr Khanyile, you will recall yesterday that you told the Committee that your co-applicant Mr Buthelezi was not involved in the attack on Boipatong.

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yes, it is true.  The other one whom I have just forgotten, it was Moses Mthembu.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Khanyile, ... (tape ends) ...

VINCENT KHANYILE: The people I am mentioning, I am mentioning because I know their whereabouts on that day.  About the others, I didn't see them at Boipatong, I just heard from themselves saying they were there.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, do I understand that you are saying that both Mr Mthembu and Mr Buthelezi were not present as a fact?

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is correct, I know that very well.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Khanyile, sir I was listening to your explanation on the injured people of Boipatong being caught in the cross-fire of the battle.  There is one kind of injury and assault that you haven't dealt with, and that is with the sexual assaults and the rape of the women during the course of the attack.
	Do you have any knowledge about the raping and the sexual assaults on women that night, by the attackers?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Since I haven't mentioned that, it explains that I didn't see that happening.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you not hear any of the men boasting subsequent to the attack that that was part of the activities that took place that evening in the township during the attack?

VINCENT KHANYILE: You mean boasting with reference to the women they have raped, or with reference to exactly the whole incident of Boipatong?

MS CAMBANIS: With reference to the women they had raped and sexually assaulted?

VINCENT KHANYILE: No, I didn't hear something like that.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, it is our instructions and we are in possession at this stage, of at least 11 women who were either raped or sexually assaulted by the attackers during the course of the attack.

VINCENT KHANYILE: I am hearing it for the first time from you.

MS CAMBANIS: And the nature of some of those attacks, that they were kicked in the genital area, that metal objects were inserted?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I didn't even hear about this, even in court.  I am hearing for the first time today.

MS CAMBANIS: So what is, you didn't hear it in court.  What is the significance of that?

CHAIRPERSON: What he is saying is that he is hearing it for the first time.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair.  Now finally Mr Khanyile, can you just tell me, this is the evidence that will be placed before the Committee by the victims.  Can we agree that this is not part of any policy of any political party?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I briefly explained this before that politics to the African people came as a new subject which was not known.
	We were told that if anyone belongs to a particular organisation which is not the same organisation you are in, it is an enemy.  In those days I am trying to explain that we didn't know anything about politics, and we don't even know the meaning of the word politics.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, if I can just interrupt at this stage.  Towards the end of the hearing at the previous occasion, I asked for the various legal representatives for the family to provide us with a list of who they appear for.
	Certain statements are being made by Ms Cambanis and she mentions 11 people that will make certain allegations.  We would like the names of the people that she appear for so that we can then do our own investigations, otherwise we may end up at a later stage that we will have to do investigations at that time, delaying the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure she is going to give you those names because she now has 11 persons who will make those allegations.  I am sure she will give those names to you.

MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to that?

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair, I do not mind disclosing the names to the Committee and to the legal representatives.  I am not happy, the clients are not happy that their names be made public. So subject to that, yes, I will make the names ...

CHAIRPERSON: There you have it.  Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Mr Khanyile, may I just ask you one question.  Look at page 106 which is your affidavit.  Do you have it before you?
	The last sentence of your affidavit on page 106, if I am translating the Afrikaans correctly, you said what happened in Boipatong should not have happened.  Do I understand you well that there are other means by which this friction could have been resolved?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I would like to briefly explain sir.

CHAIRPERSON: He has given you what he is understanding of what you are saying in Afrikaans at page 106.  Do you agree with his translation, that is the first question?

MR STRYDOM: The witness does not understand Afrikaans, but what I can say is that I do not agree with his translation.

MR MALINDI: Mr Khanyile, may I just read the sentence as it is in Afrikaans.  "Die situasie het hande uitgeruk en moes nooit eers so ver gevorder het nie."
	My translation would be that the situation should not have gone as far as it did.  Do you agree with me?

VINCENT KHANYILE: What I was trying to tell my lawyer was that the reason why we have to take a decision to attack is that the situation was out of hand, because the government in charge at that time, was not able to protect the civilians.  That is what I was trying to bring over.  If he wrote it the other way around, then it is not my fault.

MR MALINDI: If that is what you intended to convey, do you agree today that there were other means available to resolve this conflict, other than launching that vicious attack on the community of Boipatong?