Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

MR BOOYENS: Right.  Now, the occurrence book at the police station is not written by the security branch, is that right? - it's written by the ordinary uniformed policemen.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you were a uniformed policeman at some stage in your career, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You worked at a station, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: And if you were on charge office duties at night, it's part of your duties to visit the cells, to see that - of the entries that must be made in the O.B., how many prisoners there are, if there are any complaints, in fact you are supposed to visit them hourly, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: On - if you turn to page 187 - can I just finish this aspect, I'm sorry Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, Volume 3 - 2?

MR BOOYENS: If you turn to page 187, you'll se an entry there - your Afrikaans is good enough to read that, entry 630, do you see that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Read it.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Released.

MR BOOYENS: Can you read that for us?  Read it on the record please.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Released:  Kondile: 14/11. Article 6: released.

MR BOOYENS: So, here is an entry on the 10th of August 1981 in the occurrence book written by the uniformed policemen, which indicated that at 10 o'clock that morning he had been released, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That's right.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Booyens are you sure that that is correct?  Who recorded this?

MR BOOYENS: We don't know, we just know that there's such an entry in the occurrence book.

JUDGE PILLAY: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE PILLAY: Sorry.  You put it to him that it was written in by the uniformed policemen.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, I take your point.
	Let's just put it correctly, there's an entry to the effect that this man was released, in the occurrence book.  We don't know by who because whoever was supposed to sign it didn't do so, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: But we know that according to you he was still kept in the cells because he was only interrogated in the office, for another two and a half months about, is that right?

MR BOOYENS: All I'm suggesting to you is that for the next two and a half months the occurrence book at Jeffrey's Bay will never tally with the number of prisoners and number of people that are supposed to be there.

CHAIRPERSON: How do we know that?

MR BOOYENS: It's logical.  If the man is being kept in the cells but he's been theoretically released, there's one extra prisoner in the cells.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] full record.

MR BOOYENS: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the full record of the entries relating to ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: No, no, that's what - I'm putting it as a logical consequence of the fact.  If you've got a released prisoner Mr Chairman, he's not in the cell anymore on paper but in real fact he is in the cells then it's a matter of elementary mathematics - which has never been my strong point, that you would always sit with one prisoner too many.  Your books will say there are supposed to be - Pete, Paul and John have been arrested for assault and housebreaking and so and there's supposed to be three prisoners in the cells but there's a fourth one, the man that's been released on the 10th of August.

JUDGE PILLAY: Unless of course he's there under another name.

MR BOOYENS: Well ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can we move on, I don't know whether this is a matter of such great consequence but move on.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think you better put the question that you wish to put to him.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.
	I'm putting it to you that in fact your estimate - your statement that you interrogated him for 12 weeks is wrong, that he wouldn't have been in the cells at Jeffrey's Bay after the 10th of August 1981.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was there on that case.  There are people who know I was there, even people in P.E.  It's very easy, there are witnesses, they know I was in Jeffrey's Bay for a long time.  Some of them are still in the police force.  I don't know what it is that you're trying to get at.

MR BOOYENS: I'm not saying you were not at Jeffrey's Bay, I'm saying you were not at Jeffrey's by for as long as you say you were.
	May this be an appropriate time to take the short adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We'll take an adjournment at this stage for 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Danster, you are still under oath.

GINOTRY DANSTER: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Yes, you may proceed Mr Booyens.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, it's becoming apparent to us that the entire occurrence book over the period in Jeffrey's Bay will become relevant at some stage.  However, my instructing attorney asked my learned friend Mr Steenkamp, Mr Steenkamp apparently hasn't got it in his possession.
	We trust that at least some of the occurrence books must be somewhere in the building because they've been photocopied somewhere but we will deal with that at a later stage.  I would just like to refer to a few aspects about the occurrence book and then ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's move on the ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: Move on to something else.

CHAIRPERSON: To the crucial part of the evidence.

MR BOOYENS: Well, this is actually crucial, with respect Mr Chairman, because of the time.

CHAIRPERSON: As to when the actual events occurred is a matter of some sharp difference.

MR BOOYENS: As a uniformed policeman, do you also recall that there's is a thing called a cell register in which all prisoners in police cells must be recorded, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Right.  If you would - we haven't got the cell register but the cell register must balance with the occurrence book, is that correct?  It must also indicate when people are released and so on, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: If you would be so kind to turn to page 186 in Volume 2, just to illustrate to - I knew I could rely on the co-operation of my learned friend Mr Jansen, Mr Chairman.  At the top of page 186 - just to illustrate how an occurrence book works, entry number 621 indicates that
"Constable Mooi fed 25 units in the cells with coffee and bread:  25 mugs: no complaints"
Now, that is a normal entry that would made when prisoners are fed, right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Unit I presume refers to a prisoner.  Then, if you go to entry 623 it appears that 1, 2, 3, 4, 5th line
"Prisoners to court"
	And then eight prisoners - and the names are given there, together with - can you perhaps assist us, there is a 14, 13, 1443 and so on, what would that be, would that be the cell register number of what would that be? - on the right hand side of the name.
	You see there is a name, for example: Goodwill Maboti 14/13 and then ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: Cell register number.

MR BOOYENS: Cell register number?  Okay, thank you.  Then we notice that eight prisoners are taken to court, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So now there should be 17 prisoners left in the cells? -  Eight minus 25 give me 17, at least approximately.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Then the very next entry we've got that
"Black man Sizwe Kondile placed in cell by Detective Sergeant Gerber or Sergeant Gerber"
So now there should be 18 prisoners in the cell, right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You agree.  Then at the top of page 187 we see that there are now 18 prisoners in the cells
"No complaints"
18 prisoners in the cells:
"No complaints"
Is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.