Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We met with a lady who said she was working there, we pretended as people who were looking for jobs.  We wanted to know whether there were any whites there, we were told that there were no whites there, it is only a woman there.
	The men had gone to another coastal resort, the one that I said is at Gomolo, Mdageni, they went there for fishing.  There was also a child that we saw there, and we chatted with the child.
	We left after that, we left the place and we went back to the other comrades.

MR ZILWA: Was it a white child, was it a boy or a girl, what sort of child was this that you chatted to?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: It was a white child, I cannot remember whether it was a girl or a boy, I am not sure, that was long ago.

MR ZILWA: Okay, please carry on.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We went back to the other comrades at Mbande.  We gave them the report of what we found there.  We took a decision to wait at a certain spot and wait for them on their way back and meet with them.
	We agreed that those who would be left in the car, Nyalukana, is supposed to hoot in the car to ensure that those were white men in the car and to ensure that there were only whites inside the vehicle, there would be no black person there.
	When the car first appeared, Maxhayi, those who would be shooting, firing, and Fundisile Guleni, and one of those who refused with their firearms called Timan, I don't know his real name, they had to hide in some place, preparing themselves to fire.

MR ZILWA: You saw a car appearing at a distance and it is then that the ambush positions were taken by the people you have mentioned?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: ... the ambush positions, had taken their positions, it was agreed that by way of a signal, if the occupants of the car were white males, Nyalukana was to hoot ...

MR SMUTS: A gender wasn't referred to in the evidence when it was translated Mr Chairman.

MR ZILWA: Mr Chairman, I think that is what the witness said.  Maybe it could be clarified from him.  Can you just repeat what you said about the arrangement, the arrangement regarding the hooting, I thought that is what you said, but just repeat it anyway.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: What was going to happen was this, when the car appears, the car that was suspected as a car belonging to the whites, Vuyani Nyalukana would hoot if he is sure that this is the right target.
	We realised that there were people, there were white men who left with the 4 x 4 vehicle, so we wanted to ensure that really in that 4 x 4, the occupants were white, the passengers were white, that is what we had to ensure.
	We had to ensure that there was no black person inside.  It came to us as we were standing next to the car when it passed, Nyalukana hooted.  It disappeared at a corner when it was about to meet the others who were to attack, we heard gunshots.  That is how they were shot.

MR ZILWA: Right, to cut your story short.  You have listened to the evidence that was given by Maxhayi, regarding the occurrences from the time of the shooting, onwards.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Do you agree with the version that he gave regarding the occurrences after the car had come to the, well in any event, they had gone around the corner and out of your sight, I assume?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: And from the point where you were, all that you could hear, were the firearm shots and you were not in a position to see what was actually happening?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Right, now from that onwards, will you take the version of Maxhayi, from there onwards, there is nothing in that version, that you don't agree with, or which you wish to supplement?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: At the moment, I cannot think of anything.

MR ZILWA: To talk in particular about yourself, were you armed with anything on that day?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I was not armed.

MR ZILWA: So really, your principal role, even though you were part of the operation itself, but your physical activity there included actually identifying the place and actually proceeding to reconnoitre the place?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: It is so, but I cannot dispute the fact that I was involved.  If there were enough weapons, I would have had a weapon and I would have killed.

MR ZILWA: Yes, you were part of the operation, you freely admit that.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Now, it has stand out, we have been informed that in fact the people who were killed in this ambush, killed and injured in the ambush, were not in fact part of the Costello band of rightwingers, as you put it, the AWB, but they were innocent fishermen who had gone on a fishing trip.  You have heard that, haven't you?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, I heard that.

MR ZILWA: And you have no reason to dispute that, do you?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: In view of that fact that in fact instead of retaliating to your targets, or your intended targets ie the rightwingers who were destabilising your area or your movement, in view of what you cannot dispute that in fact you shot at and killed innocent fishermen, how do you feel about that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I cannot dispute the fact that we killed fishermen, as it is explained, but if they were really fishermen, I feel very bad about that because people that were not intended to be killed, died on that particular day.

MR ZILWA: If you had been aware before actually carrying on with the operation, that in fact this 4 x 4 carried not rightwingers who were destabilising your area, but just innocent fishermen, would you have continued with the operation of shooting and killing them?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We would not kill them, more especially if they would identify themselves as not being members of AWB.

MR ZILWA: Can you please repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: How do you expect them to identify themselves as not being rightwingers, when they didn't even know of this ambush?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I mean that if there was a way for us to ensure that they were not members of AWB, it was not that we were expecting them to do so, but it is something I don't even know how was it going to happen, but at least if there was a way of, for us to ensure that they were not the target.  I am not expecting that to be done, I was not expecting that to be done by them.

MR ZILWA: Right, now we have been informed by those who have testified before you, that you had a rough idea that this was to be a series of operations and Port St Johns was just the starting point.  Do you also agree with that evidence?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Had you come to concrete agreements or plans as to which targets were going to be next and how you were going to carry on your following operations?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, that is not true.

MR ZILWA: Was there any particular criteria that you had intended to use in choosing your targets for this retaliation?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, because places that we would think about, we would have to contact the comrades from that particular area and get their views on how do they identify the enemies, what people are regarded as their enemies.

MR ZILWA: Now, Maxhayi has informed us that after this 4 x 4 had been shot and it had overturned, then you were taken to your respective areas and they of Flagstaff, left for Flagstaff.  You confirm that, don't you?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.