Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS P BERLIN: So, can you tell us a bit about Vlakplaas hierarchy in paragraph 23, I understand that you became an Askari, and under whom did you fit into the Vlakplaas hierarchy, who was your commander?

JIMMY MBANE: Eugene De Kock used to be the commander.  And then there was another white man, Mr Venter, Captain Venter, and others, but the people who were in command used to be Captain Venter and Mr Eugene de Kock.

MS P BERLIN: So you were working directly under De Kock and took orders from De Kock?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct Ma'am.

MS P BERLIN: You say in paragraph 23 that De Kock took you to the bar, and this I understand is a bar at Vlakplaas?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, there is a bar.

MS P BERLIN: Then he told you that the purpose of being at Vlakplaas is to hunt and kill the terrorists.  What did you think when you heard this.

JIMMY MBANE: I had already given up that I would work with them, there was nothing else I could do at the time.

MS P BERLIN: In paragraph 24 you say that you were given the first mission.  Is this a direct statement, that this first mission should be the one to Cape Town?

JIMMY MBANE: My first mission - I think there's a mistake, there's an error a typing error here, because the first mission was among Soweto and Krugersdorp.  We were hunting people there.  My first mission was in Cape Town in 1986, the serious mission.

MS P BERLIN: You mean your first serious mission was in Cape Town in 1996?

JIMMY MBANE: In 1986.

MS P BERLIN: Of course, thank you - 1986.  But you came to Vlakplaas in 1984 and what kind of missions what kind of operations were there in Vlakplaas then that you did?

JIMMY MBANE: We were patrolling at the bus stops, at the Stations, Baragwanath Hospital, the taxi ranks.  We wanted to see if we could identify people there.  It's where I met this gentleman called Metzing, the one that I killed - I beg your pardon, the one that I shot.

MS P BERLIN: I am sorry but I don't follow you here.  Have you mentioned this name in this paragraph.

JIMMY MBANE: We were patrolling all over the place.  It's also in my statement but I can't remember which paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Metzing you're talking about?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, Metzing.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 37.

MS P BERLIN: Okay, I will not proceed on that one, since it doesn't have to do with Guguletu 7 directly, this is about some missions before 1986.
	Now, until when did you stay at Vlakplaas, just to get the full picture?

JIMMY MBANE: I stayed there until mid 1990 when I was changed to work for the intelligence.  After that I left, I went to work for National Intelligence.

MS P BERLIN: Until when did you work there?

JIMMY MBANE: Until 1992.

MS P BERLIN: Okay thank you.
	Now, in paragraph 24 where you're talking about the mission to Cape Town.  And by that we can say that we have come to the very relevant parts for this hearing.  You said that in your unit there were Joe Kotze and several other persons.  What is a unit, what was a unit at Vlakplaas, how permanent was it?  Can you tell us a bit about that?

JIMMY MBANE: I am not sure whether you want to know about the number of people or what type of operations were taking place there.

MS P BERLIN: No, I would just like to know what a unit is and how many people approximately in one unit and if you always worked with the same people in a unit and what kind of persons were involved - Askaris, policeman, other staff...

JIMMY MBANE: It's policemen and Askaris and you don't work with the same person every month.

MS P BERLIN: So you changed unit every month, or you had a different commander every month?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct Ma'am.

MS P BERLIN: No, I asked you a question.  Did you change commander every month, or did you change units every month?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, we were alternating units.  This month we would work with another senior and the following month you would work with another group so we were rotating.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you.  Who was the commander in this particular unit, who was you commander on this mission at this point when you left for Cape Town?

JIMMY MBANE: It was Belletjies and Joe Coetzee.

MS P BERLIN: Could you please say the full names of those persons?

JIMMY MBANE: We used to call Bellingan Belletjies and there was Joe Coetzee.

MS P BERLIN: Bellingan and Coetzee they were from Vlakplaas, I understand?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, Ma'am they were from Vlakplaas.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you.  So you drove the kombi to Cape Town and you stayed in a house in (...indistinct).  I'm in paragraph 24 still.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MS P BERLIN: Were you told why you were sent there?

JIMMY MBANE: I want to tell you what's happening there.  If they tell you that you are going to some place, you don't have to question that, you don't have to ask why, you've got to take your bag and drive to that particular place.  So I couldn't ask why would I have to go to Cape Town and when you arrive in your destination, it is only then that you can get information.

MS P BERLIN: So who did you meet when you came to Cape Town?  Who gave you more information and what kind of information did you get?  If you could explain all that to us please.

JIMMY MBANE: Liebenberg came to us the following day after our arrival.  He was with another white man.  They talked to Mr Mbelo, I don't know what they were talking about.  And from there Mbelo disappeared and he came back the following day.  Liebenberg came back again and he produced two photographs and he asked us if we know those people but we told him that we don't know them.  They call Shakes Maluleka, they gave us orders, they said you should go and infiltrate in Khayelitsha.  That's where we started.

MS P BERLIN: Can you please describe who told you to infiltrate in Khayelitsha?

JIMMY MBANE: It was Liebenberg and Belletjies.  That's Bellingan.

MS P BERLIN: Were you explained why you should infiltrate the people?  Did you know the purpose of the infiltration by this instruction you received?

JIMMY MBANE: They told us that there were those people who were trained people for they were destabilising Cape Town.  We were given instructions that if we see ourselves in danger, it's either we eliminate them or we shoot them, that was the same thing, as long as we are protecting ourselves.

MS P BERLIN: Yes, but - okay, so you were told to infiltrate these people because they were dangerous, but did you get any orders to arrest them, or to disarm them, or what were the orders, or didn't you get any?

JIMMY MBANE: We were working in this way.  If you see that you are in danger, you don't have to arrest anybody, you've got to eliminate that person, just shoot that person away.

MS P BERLIN: So what are you saying?  That you infiltrated to shoot them?

MR BOOYENS: With respect that's not what the witness
	My Lord, if I understood the question correctly, the leading question correctly, that you infiltrate them to shoot them, that's never what the witness said.  I object to that question.  It's not a proper question, the witness never said it.

MS P BERLIN: Okay, I withdraw that question, I am so sorry.
	In paragraph 24, the last sentence, you were sent to infiltrate these people with Thabiso Sepamla, can you please explain to us who Thabiso Sepamla was?

JIMMY MBANE: It was not Thabiso Sepamla, it's Eric Shakes Maluleka, it's not what is written here.  I told the people who were writing here that Thabiso was just there in the unit but the person that I was - is Eric Shakes Maluleka.

MS P BERLIN: So, is the same error made in paragraph 25, "myself and Thabiso Sepamla", it should be Eric Maluleka?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.