Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We might consider adjourning at this
stage.  We'll break for 15 minutes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

HAROLD SNYMAN: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	At the inquest in Pretoria, you were shown coloured photographs.  Do you recall?  Which clearly showed an injury above the eye, do you recall that?

MR SNYMAN: I can't recall, but it's possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: And also show a cut lip.  Do you recall that?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you didn't really need the photographs to remember that there was an injury above the eye and that there was a cut lip. You yourself saw it when it happened?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I didn't see the bang on his head or punch against his head.

GEORGE BIZOS: What about the punch that cut his lip?

MR SNYMAN: I mentioned that in my occurrence book entry.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see him bleeding?

MR SNYMAN: There might have been blood on the lip, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Never mind might, did you see him when you were busy restraining him against the grille and putting the handcuffs on on his arms and the leg-irons, did you see that he was bleeding?

MR SNYMAN: I saw the injury to his lip, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see him bleeding?

MR SNYMAN: There was blood on the lip, that is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was he bleeding?

MR SNYMAN: The blood was not dripping, but there was some blood on his lip due to this injury.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anybody put any disinfectant or try to attend to this injury of his?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot recall, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, wouldn't you've remembered if a small piece of humanity was shown to him in the circumstances that prevailed in that room?  Would you have forgotten if any human behaviour was exhibited towards him?

MR SNYMAN: I might be able to describe this as inhumane, but at that point I reported the matter to my commanding officer.

GEORGE BIZOS: What good does it do to a man with a bleeding lip that you report it to his officer.  There were five of you there.  Did any of you take any immediate step to give him any disinfectant or a painkiller or to attend to the wound on his lip?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that his behaviour, their behaviour was inhuman and I think implicit in that is the answer that they did nothing to him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I'm going to put to you that a person that beats someone up is not likely to behave in a humane manner, but if the injuries were accidental, you would probably have done so.  Do you understand what I mean?  Can I put it in a more plain fashion for your comment? If the injuries to his head and his lips were accidental, you and your colleagues would have done the decent thing, because of an accident.  But because you hated Mr Biko and what he stood for, you did nothing.

MR SNYMAN: I did not hate him, your Honour.  The fact that I reported it to my commanding officer and that he indicated to me that he personally would handle the matter from there onward, I had thought that he would call in a doctor to pay attention to him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Your superior spent all his time to cover up,  not to help Biko and you knew it.

MR SNYMAN: I did not know of the deception. I did not know with whom the commanding officer had contact and from whom he obtained information.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, we have handed in a copy of the rough plan. I don't know whether you want to receive it as an exhibit?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, has counsel for the applicants seen this
diagram?

MR BOOYENS: M'Lord, yes, we have been given this diagram.  The plan that - this may be what it looks like now, but we've got another plan and our plan looks different, I should add at this stage.  It shows different doors and so on, so my learned friend can obviously make use of it, but we do not accept the correctness of this plan, because on what I am told, this is not what it looked like at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Mr Bizos, is it claimed that the diagram you've got, reflected the position as it was at that time?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman, Mr Jones was there in a similar position as Mr Biko.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  All right.  For what it is worth, this is now going to go in as EXHIBIT, I think F.  Is it E?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: E, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: EXHIBIT E, thank you.
EXHIBIT E HANDED IN

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I should have asked you as well.  Have you had a chance of looking at it?

MR ERASMUS: I did look at it and I do want to say that we will inspect the site and on a further occasion, we will indicate whether we agree with or disagree with the exactness of the plan.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Erasmus.  I'm sorry, I should have asked you first.  Carry on, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Tell me, what did Mr Biko do with this chair and at what stage?

MR SNYMAN: He pushed the chair away, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: How did he push it?

MR SNYMAN: He rapidly pushed it forward, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: How did he do that?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the meaning of that question; with one hand, with two hands?

GEORGE BIZOS: With his hands or his feet or his body?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  There's a difficulty sometimes ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: I can understand.  Thank you for giving me an opportunity to clarify it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: How did he move it,  with his hands, his foot, his body?

CHAIRPERSON: Will the people in the audience please sit down?  This demonstration must not take place while these proceedings are on.  You can do that during the adjournment.
	Yes, please, do carry on.  You asked whether he pushed this chair, whether he kicked it or whether he pushed it with his hands, 
or how?

MR SNYMAN: He pushed it with his hands, very quickly, your Honour and he pushed it forward.

GEORGE BIZOS: Away from himself?

MR SNYMAN: In the direction of Capt Siebert, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: He didn't throw the chair?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.  He pushed it quickly or bumped it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Will you have a look at Exhibit C1, the note that you made at the time?  You say
"The detainee took on a very aggressive attitude. He went beserk. He picked up some of the chairs in the office and threw these at Maj Snyman."
Now, you yourself contradict that version in your evidence, don't you?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you record that chairs were thrown at you by Mr Biko?

UNKNOWN: With respect, that is not what the entry says.  It does not say that chairs were thrown at the witness.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry.  I'm sorry - that one of the chairs in the room was thrown at you.

MR SNYMAN: That was part of the false statement, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you told us yesterday that the only falsity in it was the date and also that instead of your name, it should have been Siebert. You didn't tell us about that it was false, that a chair was thrown at one of the security personnel there, did you?

MR SNYMAN: The circumstances are as they are now explicated in our amnesty application, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: That is not the question that I am asking you.  The question that I am asking you, is why did you write a lie and why when you were asked whether this report was correct or not, you mentioned the two details in respect of which it was wrong, but you failed to mention that it was wrong to say that there were chairs in the room and that one of them was thrown at either you or you Mr Siebert. Why did you do that?

MR SNYMAN: That was a lapse on my part, your Honour, an oversight.