Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, there were many bomb attacks, too many to mention here.

MR VISSER: In paragraph 23, you mentioned a few of these.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is so, during this period there were many bomb attacks for example, at the Constantia shopping mall and the Administration Council building, the new Justice buildings and on the railroad  - Swartkops railroad.

MR VISSER: You also confirm the content of these notes which have become part of your application and that it is true and correct according to your experiences?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is so.

MR VISSER: Just then to come back - the specific command you had here, could you shortly tell the Committee which branch offices were in your area.  First refer to the Eastern Province area, till where did that go - the boundaries of that division?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: My area of authority was the headquarters in Port Elizabeth, then there was a branch office in Uitenhage, one in Grahamstown, one in Fort Beaufort and one in Cradock.

MR VISSER: Can  you remember who was in charge of these various branch offices during that time?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: In Cradock, it was Lieutenant Fouche, in Fort Beaufort, it was Hearn, in Grahamstown, Lieutenant Oosthuizen, in Uitenhage, Captain Muller.

MR VISSER: Regarding the command structure in Port Elizabeth, can you in the first place give us an indication of which components were there and how this command structure functioned according to these?  We refer first of all to number one - you were the commanding officer, you were number one, who was second in charge?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That was Major Snyman, Major Harold Snyman.  And then we had various divisions or sub-divisions, administration - the administrative staff under the authority of van Greunen, he was a captain at that time.

MR VISSER: You can go ahead.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Then there was a division for Black matters and investigations under the guidance of Captain du Plessis.  Then there were White staff under the command of Captain Siebritz.  Trade Unions, Coloureds, Asians under the command of Major Nick van Rensburg.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, I just want to draw your attention that you have a way of dropping your voice and then we can't hear you.  Please speak a bit louder so we can hear you.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I will do that Mr Chairman.  The last division was technical matters under the command of Captain Greyling.

MR VISSER: I can't remember, but was there also a division of court related aspects?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I've referred to investigations under H B du Plessis.

MR VISSER: In total then in Port Elizabeth, how many staff were employed in the security branch?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, all inclusive it refers also to the branches and the administrative staff, not more that 140 staff members.

MR VISSER: Can we just talk for a minute about where you were standing in this whole command structure and what your task was.  Firstly, regarding instructions, did you receive instructions from security head office regarding everything you had to do or did you not receive instructions from them or what was the situation in that regard?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I was appointed as the commanding officer in Port Elizabeth.  Headquarters did from time to time give us various instructions and then I delegated it to the various branches.  The daily instructions, I was responsible for myself because it was my duty according to my instructions, to gather intelligence, to monitor everything which was possible and in this way to keep the State informed regarding the latest developments and therefore enable them to form policy.  This was shortly what my instructions were.

MR VISSER: Mr Gerrit Erasmus's position - if a problem should arise on the ground, what would be the normal situation?  Was it passed along to head office or was it solved here on the ground?  What was the expectation and what was the practical position?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It was expected of me to solve my own problems and if there were serious problems which I couldn't solve myself, I would refer these or report them to head office.

MR VISSER: Now, the day to day protection of lives and property, the prevention of violence, crime, preventative actions, arrests, prosecutions etc., - that type of thing, did you receive specific instructions for those things or did you have to use your discretion in that regard?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: We had to carry these things out, it was part of our duties.  That's why we were appointed and as I've already said, from time to time  requests were made by head office or questions were asked as to why certain things had happened and why we could not control certain things.  But as far as the day to day functioning and investigations were concerned, that type of thing was my duty and I had to do that.

MR VISSER: And you did it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, according to the experience that you had at the time in 1981/82 and in the light of your insight views regarding the revolutionary onslaught against the country, how did you rate Port Elizabeth and surroundings as far as violence and unrest were concerned, in the bigger South African picture of the time?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Chairperson, I regarded it a seriously destabilised flash-point.

MR VISSER: Briefly tell us how this manifested itself?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It manifested itself in the many boycotts, the destruction which took place, the intimidation and the mobilisation and the political awareness of the youth.

MR VISSER: Why did you - in respect to students and scholars, their activities - why did you see that as a major threat?  What were the influences at work there as far as the students and scholars were concerned, in your experience?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: As far as the students were concerned the position was as follows:  almost every household was represented by a child and that created a broad base for mobilisation, organisation, politicisation etc.

MR VISSER: Now, with this situation of Port Elizabeth being a flash-point area, were you left by the powers at the time, to deal with the situation?  What were your observations?  What did the higher powers do?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Well, my observation and the observation of others was that the pressure from Government side and the department, politicians and other state institutions that were monitoring the situation, this pressure became greater and greater and there were growing expectations and it was impossible to actually meet these expectations.

MR VISSER: Then of course there were also the public interest which you had to serve.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.  From the side of the public, business and from virtually every quarter, there was the expectation that we would address and control the situation which was emerging.

MR VISSER: In order to do this you've told us that you had to try to weaken the power basis of the revolutionary organisations, liberation organisations.  Did you feel that you were actually achieving some measure of success in this struggle? What were your observations?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: My feeling in this regard was that as a result of the severe intimidation, greater mobilisation and the youth becoming more and more politically aware, I felt that we were not actually succeeding in controlling this situation.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, I would like now to turn to the very particular facts regarding Mr Topsi Madaka and Siphiwe Mthimkhulu.  Firstly, I understand that a report was made to you by Mr du Plessis and Mr van Rensburg at a particular time, do I understand that correctly?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.