Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Now, Madam, we have  a situation here where before you leave you have a very disturbing incident of a young boy who is brought to you who is highly confused, he is in such a state that you see it fit to take him immediately to a Doctor.
 When you come back from Brandfort, you are confronted with a situation where some further young boys have been brought, relating to similar allegations, did that not strike you as something to be concerned about?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My understanding at the time was that it was Cebekhulu who needed medical attention because he was becoming a threat to himself and  a threat to Rev Paul Verryn.  I didn't understand the other children to have similar problems.

MR KUNY: No, your evidence was that Ms Falati had said to you that she had brought similar victims of Paul Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is what I mean.  I didn't understand them to be in that confused state of mind, they were a threat to Rev Paul Verryn and they were a threat to themselves.

MR KUNY: What condition were those boys in when they were brought?   The boys that you were told about after your return from Brandfort?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't know what state they were in on their arrival, but when I did see them later on, they were normal to me.

MR KUNY: Did you go and speak to these boys to find out what was going on?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Did I go to find out?  No.  As it has been stated there, I went to bed.

MR KUNY: Well, let 's take for example, the following day, let's assume you are tired from the journey, you go to bed.  Let's talk about the following day, the 1st of January now.
 You have been presented with these statements about similar victims, did you go and find out what was going on?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't actually recall the events of those days.  I don't remember precisely when I saw them, but I did see them, and they were brought into the house.

MR KUNY: Who was brought into the house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think the boys did come into the house at a certain point.  I don't remember how many days after they had been placed there.

MR KUNY: And which boys would you then be referring to now in your evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would be referring to Mono and who was the other one by the way?

MR KUNY: Mekgwe?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I think so.

MR KUNY: Kenny Kgase?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I don't recall seeing Kenny Kgase, I am just not sure who was where at that point.

MR KUNY: But you remember at least two boys being brought into your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do remember.  Exactly which names I don't really remember.

MR KUNY: And did you question them as to why they had come to your house and under which circumstances?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had them brought into the house.  I think the record would remind me.  I don't remember exactly when and why, but I also arranged with my daughter to go and do some shopping for them because I was made to understand that they didn't have their clothes with the.

MR KUNY: Did you for example question the boys or look at them to see whether they had suffered any assault?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I had no reason to think so, I didn't question them, no.

MR KUNY: So they appeared to be ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: They were quite normal.

MR KUNY: There were no apparent signs of assaults?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, when I saw them, there was no sign of any assault.

MR KUNY: And what about Stompie, was he not brought into your house at that stage?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I never saw Stompie.

MR KUNY: You never saw Stompie at all, the day after you returned?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I never saw Stompie.

MR KUNY: Are you sure about that Mrs Mandela?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am absolutely sure, I think.

MR KUNY: That is very strange, that is very strange, because you said at your trial, in the proceedings at your trial that you had seen Stompie on the following day after your return from Brandfort.  Would you like me to read ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think if you read on you would see something like he was outside, near a tap and when I subsequently enquired who that child they were talking about, was, I was reminded he had been outside near a tap.
 But Stompie never came inside my house.

MR KUNY: Did you see Stompie outside?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think that is possible, I cannot recollect properly, because I do not know that child ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, that is in ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... face to face.

MR KUNY: That is inconsistent with the evidence, with the statement you have just made, but I will, I will not take that any further.  Now, on your return, you said that no one informed you that anyone had been seriously injured at the back of the house.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was correct.

MR KUNY: And you also made mention of the fact that you went to a funeral on the fourth of January.  Do you recall that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible, ja.

MR KUNY: And you said that when you went to the funeral there was no indication that any of the people on the bus were there against their will?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is true.

MR KUNY: And you did not notice anyone had been injured?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not.

MR KUNY: Now, would it be correct, then, and your evidence at your trial seems to bear this out, that members of the
Crisis Committee came to you in this, in about the second week of January?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is possible, you heard my explanation about the Crisis Committee.  Community leaders came home.

MR KUNY: And they then made the allegations that there had been a kidnapping and serious assaults?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And can I take it this was the first time that you heard of such allegations?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That may be correct.  As I said, I cannot place the dates exactly.

MR KUNY: Well, you say in your evidence at the trial that you were outraged by the suggestion.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, because I disbelieved ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: By the allegations, I beg your pardon?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I did disbelieve it at that stage.

MR KUNY: Now, I want you to try and remember, at that stage when the Crisis Committee had come to you and presented these allegations, can you recall whether anyone previously had made such similar allegations or whether there had been any rumours to that effect?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Allegations of?

MR KUNY: Of a kidnapping and an assault.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, no.  Prior to that there had been no such allegations ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: So, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... to my recollection.

MR KUNY: Now, we can accept then that the Crisis Committee, that was the first time these were presented to you and that would explain your feeling of outrage?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja, no, that is possible.

MR KUNY: Now, Madam, what are we to understand by this statement that "you were outraged".  Were you outraged that such allegations could have been made or were you outraged that boys on your property may have been guilty of perpetrating such an act?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Both.

MR KUNY: Was the allegation of an assault and a kidnapping made only about you or was it made about the boys who were staying on your property?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I do not recollect the details, but I think it was referred to the boys.

MR KUNY: Now, you say you think it referred to the boys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I think at that stage it referred to the boys.

MR KUNY: And to yourself personally?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not recollect those allegations at that stage.