Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-21

MR VISSER: And will you also recall that on quite a few occasions we expressed our keenness and anxiety, anxiousness, to get hold of photographs, were you at that stage making enquiries as to whether there were photographs available of Mrs Kubheka?

STEPHANIE MILLER: At that time?

MR VISSER: At that time, yes.  We know what happened before, I'm talking about at that time.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I can't recall that at that time I was doing it.

MR VISSER: You see because we asked specifically for two types of photos, the one is showing her teeth and the other was a group photo showing herself standing among other peoples, if such photos were available.  You didn't make any enquiries as far as that is concerned?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  You see because we were told that photos were available but they were in Pretoria, do you know anything about that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Oh you do?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.

MR VISSER: And which photos are the ones that were available in Pretoria?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well I know of a photo that was in the possession of the D'Oliviera Unit.

MR VISSER: Yes, I see.

STEPHANIE MILLER: And that is the one in Pretoria that I presume that you are referring to.

MR VISSER: No, no, no, it's not that one, it's the one - we were told on the 2nd of September last year by Mr Wills, that the sister of Mrs Kubheka lived in Pretoria, if it was the sister, I'm not sure, but one of her relations, and that she had photographs.  You don't know anything about that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Mr Visser, I think you should take it up with Mr Wills, I don't know of that.

MR VISSER: I'm just asking you a simple question, do you know anything about it?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I don't know of that, I know nothing of it.

MR VISSER: Then you also stated in your evidence that you obtained blood samples.

STEPHANIE MILLER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: But you didn't tell us from whom, will you please do so now.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I contacted Sibongile and Lyn, Sibongile Kubheka and Lyn Masetla ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Is that Gugu, or Gugu Sibongile?  Is that the person?

STEPHANIE MILLER: They are the two surviving sisters of Ms Kubheka.

MR VISSER: The two sisters.  And was blood drawn from both of them?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Blood was drawn from both of them in Pretoria.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Are they the only ones?

STEPHANIE MILLER: They're the only ones I was involved in, if other samples were taken, I was not present.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Would I be correct in saying that in the grave a clump of hair was found in the body bag?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I did not see a clump of hair, my only knowledge of it is in the photographic record given by Dr Naidoo.

MR VISSER: When did you first become aware of those photographs?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Immediately after Dr Naidoo reported back to us on his findings.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Did it ever occur to anyone, as far as your knowledge goes, to have those hairs DNA tested?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The discussion we had and the reason that we drew blood was in order to have DNA testing done, this was done I understand, through the forensic laboratories.

MR VISSER: Not on the hair though?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I have no knowledge of whether it was done on the hair or not.

MR VISSER: My question to you is, do you know whether that was ever discussed or considered at all by anyone that you know of, that the hair should be sent for DNA testing?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I don't know whether any discussion like that was ever held.

MR VISSER: You see you start your statement, Exhibit L, is it L, K, sorry, K, I beg your pardon, by telling the Committee what your mandate was, and do you remember what you said?  You said part of your mandate of the Investigation Unit, was to corroborate the veracity of amnesty applicants, probably meaning amnesty applications of the applicants.  Now can I ask you, what effort did you make, if at all, to corroborate the contents of the amnesty application of any of the applicants before the Committee?

STEPHANIE MILLER: What do you mean exactly, Mr Visser, do you mean did I consult with the applicants?

MR VISSER: No, corroborate means to support, to find out whether there is evidence in support of, that is what corroborate means.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well certainly.

MR VISSER: What did you find ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Certainly by trying to find the body in the, if the mortuary records had shown that it had been disposed of in the area where it was pointed out, that would have corroborated the applicants.

MR VISSER: Yes, anything else?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well, a whole host of things, I would consult with the family ...

MR VISSER: How would the family corroborate the evidence of the ...(intervention)

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well they'd be able to determine when the deceased disappeared ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Oh, on the date?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Right.  The applicants said in 1987.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.  I had several discussions with the applicants at different times over different issues, I spoke to some of the other people who were involved in name, such as Jimmy Mbane, Simon Radebe.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes.  And did you speak to Mr Eugene de Kock?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I didn't speak to Eugene de Kock, one of my colleagues did.

MR VISSER: Who was the other Investigator that you keep on referring to without mentioning his name?

STEPHANIE MILLER: It's her name, I worked very closely with Gail Wannenberg, who was also a civilian Investigator in the same unit as I was, between us we did most of the special investigations involved with the Port Natal Security Branch.

MR VISSER: You referred to a case which you were asked to do the investigation and I think you referred to it as the, if I'm not mistaken, the Phoenix case, I'm not sure ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The Phoenix 3.

MR VISSER: The Phoenix 3.  There was an amnesty application which served before the Amnesty Committee, in which there was amnesty asked for the murder of what was referred to as the KwaMashu 3.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Correct.

MR VISSER: Would that have been the same three?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Exactly.

MR VISSER: Did you know any of those persons that were killed, personally, beforehand?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes, I did, I knew two of them beforehand.  I knew two of them when they were alive.

MR VISSER: And who would they have been?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Vusi Mtjali and his friend who lived around the corner in D Section, whose name at this precise moment escapes me.

MR VISSER: Vilakazi?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, Vilakazi lived with Vusi in Vusi's home.

MR VISSER: Ndlovu is the other one.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Ndlovu is the other party.  I knew the Ndlovu family and I knew the Mtjali family, I did not know the Vilakazi family.

MR VISSER: And I take it you were shocked and taken aback at the fact that they were killed and the way in which their bodies were disposed.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I was very distressed by it, yes.  Until that time there was a belief that they were blown up whilst
planting a limpet mine on a railway station.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And when you investigated that matter, you discovered that there were applicants applying for amnesty, who said that they were shot through the head twice, each of the them, and their bodies were blown up.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I'm not sure if they said they were shot twice, but certainly they were shot in the head, yes.

MR VISSER: Well, it doesn't matter.  And how did that make you feel about these applicants?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I already knew ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When you say these applicants ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Applying for that.

CHAIRPERSON: In that matter?

MR VISSER: Perhaps I should indicate to you, to bring it more to bear on the present case.  The applicants were inter alia, Hentie Botha, du Preez and Wasserman.

STEPHANIE MILLER: That's correct.