Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we were told in chambers yesterday by Mr Wills, that he had information that Mr Visagie was in the country, my attorney once again made enquiries and he's been assured that Mr Visagie is not in the country.  So unless Mr Wills knows something that we don't, that's the state of the situation at this stage.
	Mr Chairman, while we're on this point, may I refer you to the record where we have dealt with this before at the inception of these hearings.  I refer you with respect, to page 1647 of the record and Chairperson, what we said there is, Mr Visagie is an applicant, he is not available and that he was at that stage in the United States.  At this stage we don't know where he is, all that we ...(indistinct) know is he's not in South Africa.  We said at the bottom of that page:
"Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that on his own application, he did not commit any offence which can be stated to be a human rights violation, a gross human rights violation.  We would apply to you, Mr Chairman, that you consider his application in terms of Section 19(3)(b)(iii), which gives you the authority where there is no gross human rights violation, to dispose of such an application in chambers."
and then Mr Chairman, you ruled that your Committee was in agreement with the suggestion, but that you thought it would be ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Worthwhile to keep it on the roll.

MR VISSER: Correct, it would be better to keep it on the roll in case something happened in the meantime.  That is the point which we've reached at this stage, Chairperson.  You have his application before you, in which he says he doesn't know anything about any torture or any gross violation of human rights, he was just told later that she had died.  And if you look at what he applies for, he simply applies for his part in the abduction and for defeating the ends of justice.  So I'm not asking on his behalf for any gross violation of human rights.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, except that ...(indistinct) might have made a mistake on page 1647, because by virtue of the definition of gross human rights violations in the Act, it includes an abduction and an attempt or a conspiracy thereto.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I'm pleased that, Mr Chairman, that you remind me thereof, because I've made this mistake before.  In fact Visagie does not ask for abduction, he asks only for defeating the ends of justice.

CHAIRPERSON: Cover-up.

MR VISSER: Just that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think if we could at this stage, could we please remove the exhibits.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, we are going to ask you to recall Wasserman and du Preez, who are the two witnesses that I have here in Durban, to come and give their opinions as to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What, right now?

MR VISSER: Right now, on these dresses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll do that and then we can remove them.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, you were about to say something.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  Mr Chairperson, obviously we'd like the opportunity to address you on that position, and it is my instructions to oppose that, but we will address you on that basis.

CHAIRPERSON: The fact is that Mr Visagie is not here now, so he will not be testifying now.  So we'll just leave the question of Mr Visagie open, which can be dealt with at a later stage, Mr Wills, and you can make any submissions you wish to in that regard.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser has just indicated that some of the applicants are going to be recalled, just in connection with the exhibits that are before us now.  Is there any objection to that?  I can't see any objection, in fact it would be helpful.

MR VISSER: Well I would motivate it thus, Chairperson, that we've been asking for these exhibits and we haven't had it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you can call them.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.  I will call Mr Wasserman first.
RECALL OF LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN

CHAIRPERSON: Lawrence Gerald Wasserman.  Is that correct Mr Wasserman?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, you had given evidence before in relation to this incident, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: At the time we did not have at our disposal certain articles of clothing which is suggested or alleged, came out of a certain grave number 343, at the Charlotte Cemetery, we now have those items in front of us, will you please have a look at it.  You were here when they were set out and identified by way of exhibit numbers.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: The dress is Exhibit 1, the polo-neck is Exhibit 2, the slip is Exhibit 3 and then there's a bra.  Having a look at these items of clothing, would you as you remember Ms Kubheka's stature, would you describe these articles of clothing as clothing that would have fitted and been worn by Ms Kubheka, as you recall her stature?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, from what I can see from here, all items, all exhibits to me appear too small for Ms Kubheka.

MR VISSER: Just give us a description in your own words as to how you recall the size of Ms Kubheka.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I recall her to the best of my knowledge, of being shortish, plump, rather plump.

MR VISSER: Rather plump?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Could you hazard a guess as to the weight - you were the one who actually got hold of her and took her to the white kombi at Battery Beach, if I remember your evidence correctly?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm not sure of that.

MR VISSER: You transported the corpse of Ms Kubheka and assisted Mr du Preez in placing it alongside the road to Inanda, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did in the process have to carry her?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I did, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What would you, if you - can you hazard a guess as to her approximate weight at the time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I would guess in the range of 100 kilos.

MR VISSER: 100 kilos.  Thank you.
	My attorney wants to just check the length of that belt, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want the length of the belt?

MR VISSER: Can't we measure it later, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we can measure it later, if we can arrange a taylor to take a look, one of the things he can measure is the length of the belt.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
	In your opinion, generally, how would you have described her?  You said a plump woman, would you describe as a medium built woman, a considerably short woman, or how would you describe Ms Kubheka as you recall her?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, she was short, strong boned, strong, she was a strong lady Mr Chairman, well built.

MR VISSER: If the suggestion is made - well, what would you guess her length to have been, compared to your own length for example?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well Mr Chairman, I'm 6'4", she was much shorter than I am, I would say a foot shorter, maybe more.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, do you have any questions you would like to put to Mr Wasserman?

MR HUGO: I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Wasserman, when I was asking you about the clothing, and I'm referring to the record at page 1944, you seem to agree that in your memory she was wearing a dress because her legs were bare, is that right?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I must see.

MR WILLS: Well you don't have to refer to the record, I'm testing your memory, Mr Wasserman.