Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-17

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, this may be a technical point.  It may be that he together with other members from Vlakplaas visited Cape Town.  I cannot say with certainty yes or no, it is a possibility, but I did meet him once and then the askaris were already there.  I infiltrated him once.  I met him before the security branch's offices in Loop Street.  He had a shirt, looked like, looking like a clown in a circus and this is just a technical point.

MR P WILLIAMS: So, you would concede that it is possible that Mr Mbelo could have infiltrated the group before the two askaris?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: There is the possibility, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR P WILLIAMS: I want to focus your attention to particular choice of words that you use in your original application.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: The page number, please?

MR P WILLIAMS: It is page two.  In paragraph 9(a), furnish sufficient particulars of the act, etcetera, and then in your, in what appears to be your own handwriting appears the words, under number nine,
"... conspiracy to murder Guguletu 7.".
Did you write this in your own handwriting or did someone else write it?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, this is my handwriting.  I and my legal representative discussed this, under that time it was brought under the impression that there was a conspiracy between me, the general staff and Colonel de Kock.  I denied that and at that stage I just wrote "conspiracy to murder", because, although there is another version on my application.  It is my own handwriting and, and that stage I thought I was applying for conspiracy for murder.

MR P WILLIAMS: And then subsequent to this incident, I believe yourself and Mr Mbelo were required to furnish the police with certain affidavits with regard to what happened at the scene.  Now, Mr Mbelo tells me that he originally wrote some version as to what happened there and then he was told by yourself that, you used the words,
"This statement is not correct",
and Mr Mbelo says that you then drafted an affidavit on behalf of him and that affidavit was submitted to the inquest.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I think he is partly correct.  That was because I was the group leader, I told him to write his statement and then I would control it to see whether the language was correct and certain parts of sentences or phrases had to be changed, but I cannot think that I have omitted, asked him to omit something, because he wrote something controversial.  If I did that I accept responsibility.

MR P WILLIAMS: In Mr Mbelo's application he says that he shot at someone who had surrendered, someone whose arms were in the air and someone who indicated that he is prepared to show the police where the other guys are and then at the scene he was instructed by some policeman, not yourself, that he must shoot this person, which he did.  Now, in other words, he shot a person under circumstances which did not necessitate him to shoot that person.  What would have happened to Mr Mbelo if he disclosed that fact at that stage in 1986?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot comment on that.  If he did that and he said that before other members, he must say who they were.  I do not know anything of that.  If he wanted to mention anything at that stage, I have no knowledge thereof.

MR P WILLIAMS: But what he is trying to say is that his affidavit was drafted in such a manner as to cover up for him as to, because if he had confessed at that stage, that he could have arrested the person instead of shooting him, Mr Mbelo could have been charged at that stage.  Would you agree with that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, but I think Constable Mbelo must not think that would, he would have been so stupid at that stage to believe in what he was saying, to write any such information in an affidavit.  I cannot remember.  If that is what he thinks, what he believes, it is correct.

MR P WILLIAMS: But did you agree with the fact that you drafted his second affidavit for him?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I did not draft it, but I could have changed various phrases.  I am honest, it might have been, it might, could have happened.

MR P WILLIAMS: I have got no further questions to the, to Mr Bellingan.  I have got no further questions.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I do.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P WILLIAMS

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just a few aspects.  Mr Bellingan, you refer, in the exposition of your background, you refer to the elimination aspect which we have addressed previously.  Mr de Kock compiled a statement referring to your exposition and he refers specifically to the word "elimination" and he says that his perception is that the instruction was not that these people should be killed bona fide and he said that in every operation where Vlakplaas was involved it was considered thoroughly and it was done on behalf of instructions received from senior officers.  Targets were evaluated, discussed and clearings for these targets were obtained from senior officers on a continuous basis.  Is that correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, that is 100% correct.

MR HUGO: Then I want to refer to the weapons involved here.  I am putting it to you that there was a large arsenal of weapons on Vlakplaas, but that these arsenal was only established in the late 1980's when the weapons were brought from the previous South West Africa.  Is that correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes.

MR HUGO: And the weapons involved in the present operation was not obtained from this arsenal.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I want to inform Mr de Kock and his legal representative that those weapons were stored at headquarters.  When weapons were confiscated it was sent from the various branches to headquarters and used as exhibits after the cases were finalised and I am referring to those weapons.  His legal representative is, it correct in that respect.

MR HUGO: Once again, regarding the background you have given, you refer to the fact that you have acted under instruction of Mr de Kock in various acts of terror and for those you are also, you have also applied for amnesty?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Is it correct that all these deeds you have applied for amnesty, to the best of your knowledge, also occurred under the instruction of senior officers who gave these instructions via Mr de Kock?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.  Everything Colonel de Kock conveyed to us we believed came from politicians and senior Generals.  We experienced it in that way at Vlakplaas.

MR HUGO: And then just for the sake of completeness, in your statement you say that this, there was a so-called carte blanche by, given by politicians and Generals to Mr de Kock and his reaction to that is that the instructions given to you and other of his men were given in reaction to specific instructions received by him from his, from senior people.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

MR HUGO: I want to refer again to the way you obtained the weapons from headquarters, that is the two AK47 weapons, rifles and a Tokarev Pistol.  What was the administrative procedure to obtain these weapons?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If Colonel de Kock would have informed, if he had informed me on Vlakplaas he would have given me a letter to give to Schoon, he would approve that.  I would go to Captain Drury to, at the Logistics Department and I would draw those weapons and it will be entered in a register, I would sign for that and I would be responsible for those weapons.  After a certain operation I would take those back and a letter would be given to me.

MR HUGO: At that stage, I want to ask, were those weapons returned after this operation?