Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

MR LOWIES: Did you see them there that night after you spoke to them?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were chased away by the police who were shooting at them and firing teargas canisters at them, and they fled into people's houses.  I never saw them again, because we were also afraid of being teargassed.

MR LOWIES: Now on your version the police came there with a tractor to fix the holes in the road on the day of the attack, but it was during the day.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, we've canvassed this and as I understand the ruling, it's not to be canvassed again.

MR LOWIES: I just want to bring him in the picture, Sir, I don't want to question him on things that have already been canvassed, but otherwise I won't be able to put an introductory to him.

CHAIRPERSON: You're laying a foundation?  Ja, go ahead.

MR LOWIES: Do you recall?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yesterday I said the tractor was moving in front, closing up the trenches that we had dug up and the Koyoco was following behind, occupied by police.

MR LOWIES: Who did the tractor belong to, was it a police tractor or did it belong the municipality or town council or the township or some other authority?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: If I knew the police I would ask them to whom this tractor belonged.

MR LOWIES: You don't know?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know these police you see.

MR LOWIES: You can't say that it was a police tractor?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I think maybe yes, it belonged to the police or soldiers, I don't know.

MR LOWIES: Isn't it possible that the police were just protecting the people on the tractor from an attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We did not want the police in the township.  We did not want them altogether.  That is why we dug up these trenches.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he is putting to you is, is it not possible that the police were protecting the people on the tractor who were either removing the barricades or fixing the holes in the road?  Do you know that or don't you know that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Exactly, yes.

MR LOWIES: Yes, what?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying they were protecting the people who were closing up the trenches using the tractor.

MR LOWIES: When the people wanting to close the trenches with the tractor, were they attacked or was there a threat that they may be attacked?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Very much so.  He could not have travelled, moved about freely on his own.

MR LOWIES: Now that day, was there a physical threat that he would be attacked, not a general threat?  Did somebody do something to say here's going to be an attack? - that you could see.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Would you please repeat?  I do not understand.

MR LOWIES: Did you see - that day of the tractor, when it was busy closing the trenches, did you see whether somebody attempted or indeed did attack the tractor or the police with them?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No.  All white people were scared of going into Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Now what made them fire teargas at the comrades?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot say, because they came across the comrades who were sitting around burning tyres and they fired without asking.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know when these trenches were dug up in Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We dug the trenches.  We did not want movements of any police vehicles.

ADV SIGODI: When did you dig them up, had they been there for a long time or were these trenches dug on that day, the 17th, or were they dug before the 17th?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We dug up the trenches before the 17th.  We did not dig the trenches on the 17th.

ADV SIGODI: Approximately how many days before the attack were they dug?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Each and every street has comrades and each and every street made their decisions as what to do because you see the township is big.  People dug up holes or trenches in their streets and we did the same in our street.

ADV SIGODI: So these trenches had been there for some time before the attack on the 17th?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And they were only filled up by the tractor on the 17th?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They closed it up on the 17th.  It was round about 4 o'clock.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

MR LOWIES: Did they ever before that try to close the trenches?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know, I did not see them do that.

MR LOWIES: But if there are trenches it would not prevent pedestrians from entering into the township, only vehicles, not so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Now on the night of the attack you also say that - that's in-chief, you said that as you were watching television, it was approximately twenty past ten, you heard a noise in the street.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct, as I stated yesterday.

MR LOWIES: There's some problem with regard to precisely what the noise was.  What did you think what was going on outside, what was this noise about?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yesterday I said I thought the noise was coming from the comrades.

MR LOWIES: Now what was the nature of this noise? Because you also said that at a stage you heard that windows were breaking.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they were breaking windows.

MR LOWIES: Now the noise that you heard, the first noise, what was that, what was the nature of that noise?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You see I heard this noise, the screaming of people and you had things like the shattering of windows etc.

MR LOWIES: But now why would you think that the comrades would do something like this, why did you think that they would make a noise like that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: When I heard the noise I thought maybe the comrades were singing.  That is why I had to go outside and look.

MR LOWIES: But I asked you what the nature of the noise was and you said
"screaming and breaking of items"
Now the question is, if that is the situation - please wait - if that is the situation, why did you think it was the comrades?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't his evidence that his initial reaction was to think that this noise was coming from the comrades?

MR LOWIES: I heard what you say, Chairman, but with respect, if the nature of the noise is of such a nature, I would submit that it's not true, and that's what I'm trying to explore.  I don't think he heard anything, but that's what I'd like to explore.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, this can't possibly be laying a foundation because what this witness heard or didn't hear has been canvassed in detail for the last two days.

CHAIRPERSON: What he is putting to you, Sir, is that you didn't hear any noise.  Is that what you're putting to him?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I heard noise coming from a further up direction.  I didn't know what noise was this.  I then went out to investigate.

MR LOWIES: Out where?  Out of what? ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You're putting to this witness that he didn't hear the noise.  He says he did hear the noise.  We dealt with this yesterday.

MR LOWIES: No, he said he went out.  I want to know where to.
	Where to?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I went to the gate and I stood there and looked.

MR LOWIES: Because you never testified yesterday that you went to the gate and looked at the gate at this stage.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You see they did not ask me, you are the one who is asking me where I went to.

MR LOWIES: Because we had, Sir, on your own version, that you only went to the window at that stage and now  you say you went outside.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: This noise was coming from afar and it continued and I would look through the window as the noise was continuing.  I was not sitting down you see.

MR LOWIES: Now did you or did you not go outside when you heard the noise for the first time? - to the gate.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I've just told you now that I went outside, went to the gate and looked around.