Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

NOMSA SHABALALA: ...  he thought that they would see Winnie Mandela, that they did not, and they said they were not allowed to speak to Winnie.  It was said that they were not fit to speak to Winnie, and Dempsey accompanied them through the passages, taking them out.
 Quite some time lapsed, then in 1994 my HASSEN came back from work, and he went out saying that he was going to Dobsonville. He was shot in Dobsonville and he died.  That was on the 12th of August, and I went to fetch him. I buried my HASSEN but I haven't yet got wind as to where Siboniso is.  There's something that I've forgotten, when Siboniso had gone - that is after a day, or a day after Siboniso's disappearance, he phoned and said: "Mum, I'm with Lolo", but thereafter he couldn't speak any further because the phone was cut off.
 I buried my HASSEN on the 12th of August, and on the 15th of October early in the morning - I think it was about 4 o'clock or 3, I heard a knock at the door. When I went to answer it, I first peeped through the window and I saw a White man who said he was a policeman and I should open the door. I opened the door.  This policeman said I should open the gate. I went to fetch the key, I opened up the gate - they got into my yard.  
 There were two policemen outside and the other one had jumped over the fence in order to gain entry.  They said they were looking for Shadrack - Shadrack was my HASSEN. I told them that Shadrack was late.  They asked me as to when he had died. I told him that he died on the 12th of August. They said they were very sorry to hear that and they showed me a photo. They asked me as to whether I could identify the person on the photo. I said, yes, I said, this is my son.  
 They said they'd just come to tell me that my son died a long time ago and I was surprised by this revelation.  I asked them about Lolo. They said:  "We have come to tell you about your son, your own son Siboniso.  If you want to know more about Siboniso as to how he died or where he died, whether you want to see him, you should go Pretoria police station, and you should ask all the questions that you are asking us".  That when's they left. They left the photo with and they went away.
 I woke my children up after these people had left. They asked me as to where I got Siboniso's photo. I told them that it had been brought in by the police.  The children were quite surprised and they said, if I go there, I should take R4 000 with.  I never went there because I did not have that much money. I was not able to because they said to me they didn't want to tell me about Lolo, they wanted to tell me about my own son.  And I realised that if I go there without this R4 000 there wasn't much they could help me with.  I was all by myself, my HASSEN had died and I couldn't raise the money.
 After quite some time Mr Sono went to Cape Town.  When they talked in Cape Town, it was revealed, or it appeared on TV, the discussions that they had.  And when they came back this policeman Dempsey was already at my place - I don't remember the other one, but they were travelling in three cars.  And when they came they asked me as to what Mr Sono was doing in Cape Town. I told them that he had gone to talk about children.  They said he mentioned Siboniso's name - do I know anything about Siboniso. I told them that the police had come to explain to me about Siboniso, and I didn't know as to what to do with regards to this information.
 Dempsey took this photo of Siboniso. He said he was the investigating officer in this particular matter, and I told him that it's been 9 years since he's been handling the case, he doesn't want us to speak to Winnie, but he said he was safeguarding our interests. And that was very peculiar, it sounded very peculiar to me. He even came to take the photo but he had another photo of Dempsey. But he said wants to take the photo because it was brought by the police who had come to tell me that Siboniso had died.  I told Dempsey to take the photo. I told him that I'm asking for help and he was not helping me in any way, and that's the last I saw of Dempsey.

DR BORAINE: I just want to ask you one or two short questions about the story that you've told us.  When those men came and wanted your son, did they say that they had come from Mrs Mandela, and that they wanted your son to go to Mrs Mandela?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, they said that they wanted my son. They had been sent by Winnie Mandela and they were going to cross the border and go to outside countries.

DR BORAINE: Now, is it correct that the last time you saw your son, was on the 14th of November 1988?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

DR BORAINE: And is it also correct that the last time that you spoke to your son, was during that very short telephone conversation?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Shabalala, you have said on a number of occasions that you would like to speak to Mrs Mandela, but that you were prevented from doing so. What is it that you wanted to ask Mrs Mandela?

NOMSA SHABALALA: I want to speak to Winnie. I'm the one who went to report the matter that Winnie had abducted my son, but Winnie herself, I do hear and see her speaking on TV, saying that she's going to sue me, but I don't know as to why she's going to sue me, because she is the one who committed this atrocity.   I do wish to speak to her but I was told that I'm not supposed to speak to her.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif?

MR VALLY: Mrs Shabalala, there are just a few questions I want to put to you.  The first question is, you say in your statement to the Commission that you were visited the second time by some police - I'm just trying to find the exact place - where they said: "What nonsense is this now because we have told you your son Siboniso is dead?" Do you recall that visit by the police?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, it was Dempsey who uttered that statement.

MR VALLY: Was there anyone else with Dempsey?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, I asked that other gentleman - I asked James Dempsey, I said: "Dempsey, Sono is supposed to say that because we weren't able to get our children or as to their whereabouts".

MR VALLY: ...[indistinct]  the other policeman who was with Dempsey at the time when the statement was made?

NOMSA SHABALALA: It was Moodla, I think it was Moodla or Moodly.

MR VALLY: What did Moodly say?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Moodly?

MR VALLY: Yes.  Did he say anything?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Moodly was going along with whatever Dempsey was saying.  He said: "This is all nonsense, there isn't anything like that", and I asked them as to why they did not arrest Winnie or take her in so that I can speak to her because I do say Winnie abducted my son because the people who were at my place explained that Winnie was involved.   They mentioned her name.

MR VALLY: Tell me, did the police say anything about whether they ever questioned Mrs Madikezela-Mandela about this issue?

NOMSA SHABALALA: No.

MR VALLY: Did you ask them that?

NOMSA SHABALALA: The police?

MR VALLY: That's correct, did you ask the police if they had ever questioned Mrs Madikezela-Mandela about your son's disappearance?  Let me repeat my question, when Dempsey and Moodly came to your house - and this was after Mrs Sono had gone to Cape Town?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes.

MR VALLY: And, according to you, you said: "Mr Dempsey said: "What nonsense is this, we have told you your son is dead"?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Ja.

MR VALLY: Did you ask the police whether they had ever questioned Mrs Madikezela-Mandela about your son's disappearance?

INTERPRETER: The witness is listening to English - there's a problem, she's not tuned into Zulu channel - she's getting confused, she's listening to English and speaking in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: [No English translation.]