Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1988-01-19

CHAIRPERSON: The delay in commencing proceedings this morning has been due a difficulty that has arisen with regard to Mr Stander's position as representing certain of the victims.
	Mr Stander, would you like to explain what the position is at the present time?

MR STANDER: Chairperson, thank you very much.  It is the case that the reason for the delay this morning was because of the fact that there was a bit of a dispute, but let's rather call it a difference of opinion between myself and the representative of the Truth Commission, with regard to the amount of my claim to which I am entitled to where the representative of the Truth Commission is not willing to pay out this claim.
	And if one looks at the guidelines of the legal aid and with regard to the Truth Commission situation, I have already told you this morning that I have not been remunerated in any way and the position at present Chairperson, is that I am not able to make my services available to the people who are now prejudiced in this whole incident because I'm not going to be remunerated as I would have thought.
	But I don't have any other choice than to inform that in the first instance, I'm sorry for the delay that this has caused but this is the situation that we have tried to sort out since October but even up to today, it has not been sorted out and therefore I have no other choice than to withdraw myself as the attorney on record on behalf of all the people that I represent.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, who are they and who is present today?

MR STANDER: Chairperson, they sit at the back of the court.  Shadrack Teku Oliphant is present today, Mr Matthews - yes, it's Matthews Mzuzwana, and then we also have two other people here - they are also at the back of the court, that's Mr Molefe and another person and at the moment I can't recall the name. They are - it is available, they are available in the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: So there are four of them here today?  The others had been notified but are not present I understand.

MR STANDER: Yes, that is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please ask the victims to stand up.  Could one of them - have you heard what your attorney has said?

VICTIMS: Yes, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: And he is withdrawing as your attorney - you've heard that?

INTERPRETER: The victims are nodding their heads.

CHAIRPERSON: And I understand that you have been told that the leader of evidence, Mr Brink, is prepared to act on your behalf.

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, who is going to represent you?

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why Mr Stander cannot represent you, is that the Legal Aid Board is not prepared to pay him on the basis which he thinks he's entitled to be paid, so he's not prepared to act for you, he has told us that.  He is no longer going to act for you.  I take it that you can't afford to pay him?

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you afford to pay him?

VICTIMS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Legal Aid Board is not prepared to pay him what he wants so he is not going to act any further, that is in fact your position.

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

VICTIMS: We are not ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: You are not what?

VICTIMS: We are not going to be represented in this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: You have been offered representation by Mr Brink, which will cost you nothing.

VICTIMS: But I think the TRC should have asked: are we satisfied about what will the ...(inaudible), whether are we satisfied or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You will have no say in the matter, that is a matter between him and the Legal Aid Board.  He has chosen to withdraw, you cannot force him to continue if he is not satisfied with the payment that he has been offered.

VICTIMS: So, now ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: You want to withdraw?  Very well.

VICTIMS: Yes, we withdraw.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I suggest that perhaps we ask these people before they leave, to give us their names so that we know exactly who they are.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  The people who've decided they're going to withdraw, is that Mr Oliphant?  They apparently don't want to talk, can they hear me? - they've taken off their earphones.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, for the help of the Committee, I'll get the names outside and I'll come and tell the Committee what the names are.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  The second question that must be decided now, is the question of Mr Mthembu.
	What is your position Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chair, I'm also withdrawing on behalf of Ngo and Motsamai.

CHAIRPERSON: Are the applicants here?

MR MTHEMBU: They are here Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps they better come and sit in their proper places.

MR BRINK: Mr Chair, may I just interrupt?  I was asked earlier by all those representing various parties, whether or not you'd allow us to remove our jackets - there appears to be no air-conditioning, it's very warm.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.
	Mr Ngo, have you heard that Mr Mthembu has said he's withdrawing as your attorney?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I heard M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: And have you appointed someone else to act on your behalf?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you agree that Mr Mthembu should be allowed to withdraw?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, was it only Mr Ngo, or is it Mr Motsamai as well?

MR MTHEMBU: As well as Motsamai Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motsamai, do you also know that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I know that Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also agree to it?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, you are excused from further attendance.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair.
MR MTHEMBU EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, the names of men are Shadrack Oliphant, Matthews Mzuzwana, Tandi Jacobs, Khuzane Dwayi ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Repeat that please.

MR STANDER: Khuzane Dwayi.  Apparently Tandi Jacobs - the last fee, there's no affidavits before the Committee as thus far.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you - Matthew, what is Matthew's surname?

MR STANDER: Mzuzwana.

CHAIRPERSON: He has filed an affidavit?

MR STANDER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Teko Oliphant, Matthews Mzuzwana and Molefe had filed affidavits?

MR STANDER: That's it.

CHAIRPERSON: And the others are Jacobs and Khuzane Jwayi?

MR STANDER: And the last one is Annie Phahlane.

CHAIRPERSON: There were only five of them there?

MR STANDER: Yes, that's five.  There's Shadrack Oliphant, the first one and Mzuzwana second, Jacobs, third, Jwayi fourth and Phahlane, fifth.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Molefe?

MR STANDER: I'm sorry, Molefe was not - he was here this morning ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But he's not here now?

MR STANDER: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STANDER: Can I ask to be excused please?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.  Sorry, I just remembered that we were asked - as you may recollect, that where names were used, we would spell them out.  Could you perhaps spell those last two for the benefit of the interpreters and for the recorders?

MR STANDER: The second last one is Khuzane - K-h-u-z-a-n-e J-w-a-y-i and Annie Phahlane - A-n-n-i-e P-h-a-h-l-a-n-e.
MR STANDER EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, maybe I'd like to say something.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

ADV MEMANI: The withdrawal of the victims complicates matters a bit for us.  In a way we have an interest in their evidence which is independent of whether they are victims ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it's open to you ...(intervention)

ADV MEMANI: You will recall that the various policemen implicated have objected to the applications of the applicants and in their objections they have said that certain events have not occurred to the people who were appearing before you as victims.  We had an interest in their evidence and we cannot compel them to remain as victims, however ...(intervention)