Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you speak to Botha and Goosen to try and help you establish the identity of this person?

UNKNOWN: I spoke with Goosen but he can't remember the identity of the person either.  No I didn't speak with Botha either.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/W CAPE
JUDGE MGOEPE	48	W/O VAN VUUREN

JUDGE MGOEPE: Shouldn't you have spoken to him?

UNKNOWN: I don't believe he would know.  They got me that evening to find the house and to show them the address, they did not know the area at all, they came from Johannesburg. It is highly unlikely, therefore, that he would know, it was the first time in his life that he went into Mamelodi that evening.  He will never be able to find the place again.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So this person as you say he was not killed, he was not killed?

UNKNOWN: No he wasn't.

JUDGE MGOEPE: He may just one day learn through the press that we have given amnesty to some people in respect of his assault, in respect of an assault on him without his knowledge?

UNKNOWN: Yes it is possible, what I do know of course is that he did not press criminal charges.  I specifically gave orders that they had to go to the police station in Mamelodi to find out if a criminal charge had been laid for assault.  There was no such charge.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Have you tried speaking to Capt Loots to ascertain the identity of the activist concerned?

UNKNOWN: Yes I did speak with Capt Loots but he can't remember at all, he can remember that he told me to go with him but that's all he can remember of that incident.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is he also not aware of the informer concerned who was attached to Special Forces, who probably would be able to shed more light on light on this matter?

UNKNOWN: He would not have known the informant either, it was Kalla Botha's informant, no one of us knew her.
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ADV MPSHE	49	W/O VAN VUUREN

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr van Vuuren, it has always been your concern, by you I'm referring to the security members about your identity being disclosed, you've always been concerned and you'd always not want a person to tell anything about your identity later.  Am I right?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.  But we knew some of the activists later on and they knew us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes and you would if you noted that a person you tortured and assaulted has seen your faces, you'd eliminate him to conceal your identity? Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: No we would not have eliminated this person, there was no intention to eliminate him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Yes I mean you would go to the extent of doing that because a person has seen you?

UNKNOWN: As I said at that stage, it was at the beginning of the hit squad activities, at that stage there was no intention of eliminating him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The example in the Richard Motasi incident, the wife thereof, we were told that she had to die because she had seen Mamasela.  That's what I am talking about.

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now weren't you worried about your identities being disclosed when you released this man the following day?

UNKNOWN: No the Richard Motasi incident was approximately two to three years after this incident, it was completely different.  At that stage I was not a member of the Hit Squad, yet, I was not killing people at that stage and it never crossed my mind to kill a person.
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ADV MPSHE	50	W/O VAN VUUREN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On page 46 of your application you mention that Brigadier Cronje spoke to you very harshly and stated that you used information which he did not verify yourself.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that what happened when you undertook this operation? Did you not verify anything?

UNKNOWN: No I had never verified anything myself.  I acted on the information received from Kalla Botha and his informant, that informant was with us that night.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But the fact that Brigadier spoke to you harshly about this would imply that always when you carried out an operation you must investigate and verify it first, and that's why he had to tell you this?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now did you yourself, before getting into an operation, verify the information given to you?

UNKNOWN: No we did not verify it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why?

UNKNOWN: No there was no time to do so, I met them at night, we went to the houses, we picked up the person, he denied that he was involved, we assaulted him, there was no time.  I would only see my sources the following night, there was in other words, no time to verify.  This specific source it was a woman who was with us that night.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you saying there was no time for you to verify or there was no time for everybody involved in the operation to verify?

UNKNOWN: There was no time for me to verify.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you ask those who were involved with you whether they had verified the information?

UNKNOWN: They were convinced that the information
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ADV MPSHE	51	W/O VAN VUUREN
was correct.  They brought the informant with them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is the name of this woman you have just mentioned?

UNKNOWN: I do not know her at all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where did you pick her up?

UNKNOWN: She came with Kalla Botha and his people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did she give any information to you people?

UNKNOWN: Yes she pointed out the house where the person was living, the person we assaulted.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr van Vuuren, wasn't the procedure that you must evaluate different source information received from different informers in order to ascertain and determine ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ....its reliability?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And in this case you did not do the same?

UNKNOWN: No we didn't have any time to do this, I did not have time because these persons were quite positive about their information, they even brought the informant with them to point out the house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But that was not the fact to consider in your situation, you had to evaluate information from different sources and not to act on the information from one source?

UNKNOWN: It was not my informant, and if I had to verify it, I would have had to place an informant in that area to watch that other informant.  That could have taken two to three weeks, and if there had been terrorists in the house, they would after two or three weeks not have been there anymore, if the weapons had been concealed there they
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MS KHAMPEPE	52	W/O VAN VUUREN
would not have been there anymore.  That is why we continued with the operation that night.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

JUDGE WILSON: Before you get to re-examination, I take it Mr Botha has been told that he is being named here?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, no, I could not establish the whereabouts of Mr Kalla Botha but the rest have been informed.

JUDGE WILSON: Has the ANC been asked if they can identify this person?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No Mr Chairman. I used the nodal point in the SAP, they are the people who provide me with all the last known addresses of the security people or the Special Forces or the office of the Attorney General.

JUDGE WILSON: No I meant the other one, the person who was assaulted, who was supposed to be an ANC person living there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No that was not done either.

JUDGE WILSON: And going back now to the previous application, we have been given one document which is apparently a statement by Mamasela, which you have referred us to once, we are now told that Mamasela in the press has said that he has knowledge of the previous matter.  Has information been obtained from him?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The press information has not been brought to my knowledge, I'm not aware of it.