Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

MR NYOKA: Mr Mthimkhulu in his statement said that you assaulted him by hitting with an open hand, you applied electric shocks and you made him to stand on his feet for long periods.  Strangely you said it could have been done by someone else, yet someone is directing it to you.  Any comment?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: My only comment is, I deny it strongly.  He was standing while I interrogated him but I personally did not assault him.

MR NYOKA: Finally in your statement you said that whilst Mr Mthimkhulu was kept in Jeffrey's Bay he was in an office, why was he kept in an office not in an ordinary police cell?  Were you treat - were you giving royal treatment?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, may I just explain the circumstances at Jeffrey's Bay?  He was detained in the cells in terms of Section 6 and when we interrogated him, he was taken out of the cells by the uniform member of duty and the station commander's office was used for the interrogation of the person.  Those were the circumstances there.

MR NYOKA: Are you saying therefore he was being returned after his interrogation, to his cell.  Is that what you are saying?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR NYOKA: Have you read your statement - your warning statement Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I did.

MR NYOKA: If you read it, why is there conflict now between what you saying and what you said in it because in your statement you said
"At night Mr Mthimkhulu was being guarded in the office by four people, Warrant Officer Loves, Lieutenant Hattingh, Sergeant Logwe and Sergeant Nani"
In an office not in a cell, there's a difference between an office and a cell.

MR BOOYENS: With respect, I think if my learned friend is referring to the centre paragraph of page 85, my impression is - if one looks at the top paragraph, this was at Port Elizabeth not at Jeffrey's Bay.  It's page 85 of bundle A.  Do you want to borrow mine?

MR NYOKA: Can you read that statement, can you read that portion?

MR BOOYENS: Read it yourself.

ADV DE JAGER: I think the 5th paragraph changed the venue.

MR NYOKA: Mr Chairperson, my interpreter did not include Port Elizabeth, I rely on an English translation, thank you.
	Can you tell me why did he have to be guarded at night, was he violent or hostile?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR NYOKA: Why did he have to be guarded then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, we were divided into teams and I interrogated him at night and the persons who were responsible during the night for that guarded him there.

MR NYOKA: Were the other detainees guarded similarly as Mr Mthimkhulu at the time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was so.

MR NYOKA: I see that you paused, were you waiting for a correct answer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, because I can't remember which other detainees Mr Nyoka was referring to.

MR NYOKA: Was it a normal procedure to guard detainees at night?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, it was so.

MR NYOKA: It's the first time that we are hearing of that.

ADV SANDI: Why was it necessary to guard detainees as night?  To have more than one members guarding a detainee, why was it necessary?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, as I already stated we were divided into two teams, one team working during the day and one team doing the interrogation at night or looking after him. I don't know I was not in command, I did the interrogation during the day in this particular case Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Looking after him, do you mean taking care of him or doing anything for him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was so Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: For example?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can only speculate, it he wished to avail himself of toilet facilities somebody would accompany him and if he required something there would always be two people, there had to be two people present to look after him - that is what I am saying Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: He had been detained at Port Elizabeth, why was there a need for him to be removed from Port Elizabeth to Jeffrey's Bay?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I think while he was detained in terms of Section 6, his first detention was in Jeffrey's Bay.

MR NYOKA: Why take him to Jeffrey's Bay about 67 kilometres from P.E.?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know.

MR NYOKA: Is it not because it was to intimidate him in the sense that Mr Kondile was there during that same year of 1981 and subsequently died, was that not the reason?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: When you were informed that Mr Mthimkhulu had laid a charge against you, how did you feel about that?  Did you feel - how did you feel?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember exactly what I felt like but I immediately knew that it was rubbish that he was saying, I had not assaulted him.

MR NYOKA: So your feeling was dismissive, you were dismissing what he was saying - you had a feeling of dismissiveness in other words.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I stated Mr Chairperson, that I couldn't remember exactly what my feelings were but all that I said is I denied it, it was nonsense - these allegations against me.

MR NYOKA: When you further heard, besides the criminal complaint that he had laid two civil claims against the police, did you not regard him as a cheeky person - this is a cheeky person?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I don't know about a criminal charge that was made against me.

MR NYOKA: No, he had laid a criminal complaint but he didn't want to make a statement to the police.  There was a criminal complaint but he didn't want to make a statement to the police because he did not trust them.  What I'm saying is, what did you feel about the other two legal actions that he had taken, a civil claim for an assault and civil claim for a poison, did you not regard him as a cheeky person?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, at that stage as I've already said - I only know about the civil suit at any rate and that's the testimony in that regard and I said it was nonsense, it wasn't true.

MR NYOKA: I put it to you that all of you were bitter and very angry that this cheeky disabled person instituted an action against big guns in the security force, what do you say about that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I deny that most strongly Sir.

MR NYOKA: And that because of what you were doing to him, you were going to embarrass him politically?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I deny that most strongly Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: If you wanted to eliminate him, why did you not do it in Port Elizabeth?  Why did you have to go to Cradock - that far?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know Mr Chairperson, I didn't make that decision.

MR NYOKA: And why was it that one person was not used to shoot both of them, why did two of you shoot both of them individually?  Were you playing some shooting game of some kind?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: When you made the application to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, why did you shoot him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, if I recall what happened, General van Rensburg told me to shoot the other person and I carried this out.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that was his evidence, was it?  I don't think that was his evidence, was it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't know but if I have to think back about this incident, I cannot remember exactly what happened.

MR NYOKA: Finally, you have said that you applied because you got an offer from the Government to apply and that you were sorry, do you agree with me that feeling of sorry or remorse is not exercised in a virtue.  When you are sorry you go to the person you've offended and you say: "I am sorry", why did you not do that?