Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, but why couldn't you have said that?  You intimated to command of the investigating team, and whatever the investigating team did, did under your command.  Why would it have been so difficult for you to have disclosed that some of the people that were subjected under some kind of assault by you, ultimately needed to have medical attention?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: But I think I am saying it now, but what I did not say here is because the question was 'Whom did you assault?  Did you assault...' Now I must write down the name person I have assaulted and I must indicate who.  The person I assaulted and what happened to him, did I take him to hospital or did he receive medical attention.  There is no person whom I assaulted that required medical attention.  That is why I could not include it in my statement.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you are aware of the people who are assaulted by you underlings that required medical attention.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, of which I authorised them to be hospitalised.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were aware when you gave instructions to your attorney at that stage, you were aware of that.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes I was aware of that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yet you did not disclose.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay, maybe I am getting confused now.  I was told that I must make a statement indicating why I need to apply for amnesty, and also indicating in your amnesty whom did you assault, whom did you kill, whom did you maim and so forth and then sign.  So I did exactly the same.  I did not touch Farisani, I did not assault him, but I made sure seeing that I was the second in charge, I made sure that he should be referred to hospital.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When Mr Farisani was taken to hospital, were you in charge of the operation then, had you replaced Mr Sifuwa?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: At that time, I can't remember.  Because I was based at Head Office.  I used to go and attend to my subordinates activities, find out what was happening and then go back.  But when Sifuwa was removed from there I took charge.  Then I had an office next to the Ramaligela's offices and that is where I could hear the screams and then I would then go and find out what was happening there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You haven't responded to my simple question.  At the time when Mr Farisani was taken to hospital for medical attention, had you replaced Mr Sifuwa?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No I don't think so.  I can't remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.  You may proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Ramushwana I would like to know when people were under interrogation.  When it appeared that they needed, they required medical attention.  Who would authorise that medical, that they go and see doctors?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Normally the investigation officer, the interrogation officer will make arrangements.

MS MTANGA: So you would ...

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: ... or the branch commander then.

MS MTANGA: You would never get involved in those decisions?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No, I was based at Head Quarters.

MS MTANGA: Alright, thank you.  Earlier on we were discussing the information, the basis for the arrest of the victims and you had indicated that according to your source some of the, after Mr Reverend Mahamba was visited by these comrades and the rest of the people had conveyed those people to the scene of the attack.  What was the source of information that you relied on?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: The information was regarding the, the attack on the police station if I am not wrong.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are correct.  Can you then give an indication to what she probably wants to ask you?  What was the basis or who was the source of that information or on what grounds did you believe that information?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay, the information I am not in a position to divulge that except the then investigation officer, but he is not here, but Director Ramaligela is in the position to explain as to how, where, from whom did they get this information and so forth.  I was not physically involved.  This is a, what I see here is a report that was given to me from Ramaligela.

MS MTANGA: If I may just briefly question you on the contents of the brief, of the report that you received did the report indicate that the church people were involved and that they received this ...(indistinct) and then they also participated by providing transport and conveying these people.  Is that the basis of the report you received?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay, there was information that was received which was later on confirmed that Reverend Poswana, Reverend Sifuwa were responsible for conveying these people and keeping observation at the police station before it was attacked and that one Ramani Chikororo made his kombi available to take these people away from the police station after the attack.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana I accept that is the basis of your report.  If that is the situation, didn't you get the names of the three people that had visited Mr Mahamba and who could have been also involved in this attack? Didn't you have information on the actual people involved in the attack?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No, I can not remember seeing the names of those people.  I don't know whether they are the same three people who attacked the police station I don't know.  But that could be, you could find out from the people who were doing the investigation.

MS MTANGA: What information did you want to get from the victims?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: We wanted to confirm what we heard about the two reverends being available and making themselves available to convey these people or to keep guard at the police station where these three armed men attacked the police station and then this was confirmed by Reverend Posiwa.  He confirmed that yes it's true he was there with Poswana and the like.  Ramani Chikororo also actually confirmed that indeed his kombi was used to convey these three to Makonde. That's how we got to the end of the...

MS MTANGA: Is it not true that all the victims who gave confession had given a different version and they were beaten up and tortured badly until they had to change their version and suit what the police wanted all of them?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I don't know, I don't know, but then at that time what we believed in was that their story tallied. The other one was detained elsewhere and the other one somewhere else.  They couldn't actually say the same account of what happened on the day of the attack, because it was exactly, the registration number of the vehicle, the ...(indistinct) providing, the Kombi was used and everything.  There was no disputing their evidence although they gave everything apart.

MS MTANGA: Mr Ramushwana if these are victims that have given confessions, why were they not charged based on their confessions which indicated that they were indeed involved in this bombing?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay, I think to be honest enough, why they were not charged is because these people were thoroughly assaulted.  We withdrew the case against them on the basis of assault.

MS MTANGA: Is it your evidence that when you are interrogating people and if you had assaulted them you wouldn't take them, you wouldn't prosecute them because they have been assaulted.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: No, it was just that, it was decided by the hierarchy that we do see that these people were badly assaulted.  If we are going to charge them what's going to happen, they were going to, we'll lose the case and then again would then have civil claim.  So it was decided that we should not charge them.

MS MTANGA: How did you obtain information about their actual attackers, that is Kone and Mamabolo and the other gentlemen. How did you obtain that information?