Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-13

MR NGUBANE: What method did you use in trying to lure her to become an informer?  What is it that you did, in greater detail that made you decide that this one cannot be converted to be an informer?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, yesterday I explained in detail the process of the recruitment and specifically how it was applicable to her.

MR MALAN: The question to you is can you give particulars and details and refer to what persuaded you that in this case, she would not turn.  Can you just give us more details?
	Please explain that to us?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.  The fact that as is normal practice, did not look at her own safety.  The reaction of a high profile person like that, his or her first reaction would be how do I communicate, how would we liaise, the logistic arrangements around the individual.  	From that, questions are put by the person who is going to be recruited, and that is indicative of whether you are going to make a break through or not.  Every case is different.  There are cases where only with the arrest itself or with the arrest of a terrorist, you persuade him to become an informer.  In other instances, money played a big role.  In other cases, the fact that people were abroad for years and suffered under the ANC, and now they experienced the freedom in the country, and that made them to become informers.

MR NGUBANE: Did you at any stage suggest to her that you would give her money?  Did you consider that option?

MR BOTHA: No, money was not an option to her.

MR MALAN: Why not?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, in her case it was not the fact that she could only identify people for money, she did not think of that, it wasn't an option to her.

MR MALAN: Did she tell you that?

MR BOTHA: Her position as a Commander makes it such that she lives in luxury, in more luxury than the other terrorists.

MR NGUBANE: Well, she might have lived in more luxury, but she was not rich, do you agree?

MR BOTHA: I do not know what her financial status was.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, precisely because you didn't know her financial position, why didn't you offer her something substantial, why didn't you consider that as an option?

MR BOTHA: I did not consider it Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: So, do you agree with me that you didn't consider all the options before you could eliminate her?

MR BOTHA: The option of the money to her, I do not really understand the question, what he means with it.

MR NGUBANE: Well what I mean is that, did you not consider an option of offering her money in order to convert her to be an informer?

MR BOTHA: No, I did not consider offering her money.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I gather that you considered that from your talking to her, that she was a strongminded young woman, who believed in what she was working for and was not going to be bribed or persuaded to change?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, that was the impression I got.  I cannot speak on behalf of other people, but in discussions afterwards with one of the amnesty applicants, that he would testify to that extent that she was very proud of what she had done as a Commander.

MR NGUBANE: But a person who without being assaulted, without being manhandled, volunteers information to you.  Do you consider that person as a hard person?

MR BOTHA: Mr Ngubane, there is a difference between having a very strong personality and a strong will and a person which offers information knowing that we have the capabilities of testing that information and either confirm it or realise that it is not true.

MR NGUBANE: Well, my question still stands.  If she was that strong, do you consider it reasonable that she would merely volunteer information which you didn't confront her with?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: No, I suggest to you that if she was that strong, and furnished you the information about which you were not aware, then you must have tortured her and assaulted her severely.

MR BOTHA: I think you are trying to put words in my mouth.  She volunteered the information, it was a question/answer basis in which information was exchanged.

MR NGUBANE: Another question which is of interest to the members of the family, I was not there when the body was exhumed, but I am informed that when he body was exhumed, she was naked.   Is that information correct?  There was no sign of clothing around her.

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I was not present when they took the body out of the ground.

MR NGUBANE: Do you bear any knowledge whether when she was eliminated, she was naked or you don't?

MR BOTHA: I do not know Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: What caused you not to wait a little longer and try more, one more day to convert her to be an informer?  You take her the previous night, and then during the following day, you eliminate her?

MR BOTHA: I was of the opinion that I could not recruit her as an informer and that is how I conveyed the message.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  Let's turn now to Pumeso Nxiweni.  Did you know him before the Ramlakan case?

MR BOTHA: Negative, he came to my attention during the Ramlakan matter.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  And after the Ramlakan matter, did you want to arrest him immediately?

MR BOTHA: No.

MR NGUBANE: We have heard evidence that Mr Taylor or whoever gave orders, that two people should be arrested.  Was it not Nxiweni and Bhila according to your knowledge?

MR BOTHA: I think we would have to ask Taylor.

MR NGUBANE: You bear no knowledge about that information?

MR BOTHA: Negative Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Did you at any stage with Taylor, immediately after the Ramlakan case, discuss about Nxiweni?

MR BOTHA: Negative Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: After the Ramlakan case, when exactly did you concern yourself about Nxiweni?

MR BOTHA: The Ramlakan matter was a matter that went on for about a years.  Mr Van Schalkwyk was the Prosecutor there and he would know how long that matter went on.
	Colonel Taylor was the Investigative Officer and I did intelligence work, which was my primary task.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, but my question is after the case, when did you concern yourself, you personally, about Mr Nxiweni?

MR BOTHA: After Mr Nxiweni's acquittal.  Some of this activities came to my knowledge through information, and this is how I became aware of his involvement.

MR NGUBANE: Was it months or weeks after his acquittal?

MR BOTHA: The date of his acquittal is not known to me.  If you have the date, it would be after that.

MR NGUBANE: Immediately after that?

MR BOTHA: I do not recall if it was immediately after that, but it was after that.

MR MALAN: Mr Botha, please try and help us here.  I think the indication was, was it shortly after his acquittal or a year after his acquittal?  You heard that he was acquitted on the 18th of February 1987.

MR BOTHA: Now, I know it is 1987, it was after that.

MR MALAN: Yes, that is obvious.

MR BOTHA: It could have been a week or a month after that.

MR MALAN: Could it have been a year after that?

MR BOTHA: Not that long, there were already acts of terror where he was involved with in 1987.

MR MALAN: So your answer is, just about after his acquittal and he continued with his activities, and this is, or very soon after his acquittal and this came to your attention, a week and a month is very soon after his acquittal, but we have the indication, never mind.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Did you and Taylor or you as an individual, look after him, and he was an elusive gentleman, you couldn't get hold of him, is that correct, immediately after his acquittal?

MR BOTHA: Your question is two questions in one.  Which one do you want first, the one where he was an elusive chap and the other one, if myself and Taylor looked after him?
	We gathered intelligence, that is what I did, and his activities came to my attention and consequently the Security Branch gave some attention to him, informers were put in, other technical help was used to monitor his movements and his activities.