Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 1998-10-20

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Sergeant Venter was in charge of the sports and the recreational services, in fact activities and I was the chairman of that department, recreational activities.   Lieutenant Venter was an assistant of the Town Prison authority or head.  Lieutenant Joubert was across at the farm, that's where he was stationed.  He was at first in Town Prison but then he was transferred to Open Camp at the farm.
	When you go towards the Maximum it was referred, that place was referred to as "the farm".  That's where he was.  Colonel Roets was working in the commanding office.  The structure of this office was structured in a way that there was an area manager.  He was working there, he was stationed there, although I don't know what his position was.  
	Warrant Officer Geldenhuys was working at the Town Prison ....[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, what was that last name, Warrant Officer who?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Geldenhuys.

CHAIRPERSON: Geldenhuys?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Geldenhuys.  That one was working at Town Prison but his portfolio was in "menasie" and in the kitchen.  There would be a head of the kitchen, the one who will run the catering in the kitchen.  There would be - there was a kitchen, a canteen and we referred to it as menasie where the food for the members was prepared.  It was a kitchen for the members but it was referred to as menasie.
	It was outside Town Prison where we would have our parties and when we have visitors from Pretoria such as inspectors coming to inspect the prison, that's where they will be catered for and that's where they will convene.  That is the place we referred to as  "menasie".

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, thank you for that answer.  The original question was, at the first meeting when you were introduced to the AWB members, was it only Sergeant Venter or Sergeant Venter and Lieutenant Venter?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: When I said I was introduced to AWB, I was connected or I was introduced to Sergeant Venter but to be introduced to the rest of these other members that happened at Aubrey's farm when we had our braais.  I even showed some where we used to conduct our braais and enjoy ourselves.
	When we gathered at that place during entertainments they would point at us and say: "These are our boys".  That's how and when I was introduced officially to the AWB at large.  I did not know all of them because it was a big group of AWB members.

MR NEL: Had you at this stage also been introduced to Colonel Roets as a member of the AWB?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That's a wonderful question.  Colonel Roets used to come to Town Prison.  I don't want to waste Mr Chairman's time, I'm quite aware of his restrictions inasfar as time is concerned.
	Roets would come and frequent the prison and spend time at the office of Lieutenant Venter and we would be called in and out.  We will always be in and out of this office.  You see the offices were situated outside the prison, not inside.  They were outside the prison premises.  We would walk there in and out as their boys and we would meet them.  
	They would play around with us you know, like little "apies" and we would be like: "thank you, baas, thank you baas" and those things.  But then we enjoyed ourselves by knowing that they knew us very well and we belonged and we could associate with them.  It was wonderful to refer to them as "baas" and they would look at us as their boys, little boys.
	You see I would like to dwell on this but I'm quite aware of Mr Chairman's time constraints.

MR NEL: Yes, thank you.  Mr Gwamanda, the question was, when and how did you meet Colonel Roets as a member of the AWB?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: But I thought I explained this, that as far as time is concerned, you see all those details I don't have any recollection of.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think Mr Gwamanda, you've told us how you got to meet and to know Colonel Roets and the others you mentioned, I think the thrust of Mr Nel's question is, when did you know or how did you know that he was AWB as opposed to a senior officer in the prison?  Were you introduced to him as being an AWB member as opposed to a prison authority because not all prison authorities are AWB members.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That's very true, Judge.  You see as I'm telling you here, there are some who are wise who were members of AWB.  I will not make that mistake to point at somebody and say he was an AWB member.  There are many Colonels, like Stanwyk(?), quite a number of them and the commanders as well.  I even know their houses but as for these ones I know even from their language, the language they use and the uniforms they always wore, like khaki, I knew very well that those were AWB members and I knew.
	I will never pick on them and say they were AWB members.  I know very well that they were AWB members and there were some many other whites who were working at the prison and I will never say they were AWB members but as for these ones ...[intervention]

MR MCHUNU: But Mr Gwamanda, when did you realise that Mr Roets is a member of the AWB?

MR LAX: And maybe just to add, what made you realise that he was an AWB?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That I picked and understood during the time of training because he uttered that himself.  They would utter that themselves and tell us that they were the members and they would ask us as to whether we liked AWB and they would always say all those wonderful things about AWB, that AWB never clash or differ with the Zulu structure and practices.   So they would utter that themselves and say it to the effect that they are AWB members.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, my instructions are that Mr Roets, today Mr, he's left the Correctional Services, Colonel Roets then, was in fact Chairman of the Barberton Branch of the Nationalist Party.  Can you comment on that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I wouldn't know that he has left.  As to whether he was a commander or what, I don't have any knowledge of that but what I know is that he was somewhere up there in the top management in the prison.  I knew he was superior in the prison.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Nel's putting to you, you've said that you believed or understood or learnt that Colonel Roets was AWB, now Mr Nel is putting to you that according to his instructions at that time, Colonel Roets was the Branch Chairman of the Nationalist Party and the Nationalist Party is not the same as the AWB, they're different political organisations.  That's what he's putting to you.  What Mr Nel is putting to you is that he was in the National Party.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I am talking about what I know but what he has just said, I bear no knowledge of that but I'm telling you about what I know and fully saw because what led to our training, we were being trained by the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, I think on that you've said that your instructions were that he was the Chairman of the Barberton Branch of the Nationalist Party but does that necessarily exclude the possibility of a person belonging to two political organisations at the same time?

MR NEL: No, it obviously does not, Mr Chairman.  I accept your point of view.
	Mr Gwamanda, you cannot however dispute that Mr Roets was the Chairman of the Nationalist Party at the time in Barberton?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I will not agree to that because I don't know that much.  I know this much that he was an AWB.  National Party never took part, never appeared or featured in any way but the AWB.

MR NEL: You did earlier state, and I assume from what you have said that you had a good ...[indistinct] with Lieutenant Venter, Sergeant Venter, Colonel Roets and Lieutenant Joubert, because of the jokes that they made and you had a wonderful time, correct?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR NEL: Do you remember the occasion where you were convicted by Lieutenant Venter for possession of dagga?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Convicted by?

MR NEL: Lieutenant Venter.