Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: Which structure are you referring to?  What ad hoc structure are you referring to, was there another structure established other than the structure that we know to have existed at Manyaseni?
MR R.B. CELE: I am referring to the same structure that Mr Thulani Cele spoke about.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the evidence, if I recall the evidence of Thulani Cele, Nhlanhla was the leader of the ANC at Gangala and did not belong to your structure?
MR R.B. CELE: Nhlanhla was part of the structure because we co-operated, we had actually amalgamated because criminal activities were carried out at both Gangala as well as our areas.

CHAIRPERSON: When did your structure and his, amalgamate?
MR R.B. CELE: It happened long before this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I want to know when, a month, a week, a day before this incident?
MR R.B. CELE: It was set up before the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it immediately before in terms of weeks, in terms of months, we need an approximation?
MR R.B. CELE: If I am not mistaken, it could have been two months, but I am not certain.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   The structure took a decision to kill these people of which you were part and what happened after the decision?
MR R.B. CELE: This large group of people then rushed to that house to kill the people.  When they saw this, they fled the house and dispersed, running in different directions.

CHAIRPERSON: There is one aspect that is a little troubling that you may be able to clear without any further delay.  In your statement, you have referred to a decision having been taken and that decision was to the effect that Amos Cele's house should be attacked and your statement does not allude to a decision having been taken to kill the people that you had administered lashes upon.  Can you explain why that important aspect of your evidence was left out in your statement and only this decision was alluded to in your statement?  I draw your attention to paragraph 8 of your own statement.  You say
"... it was then decided that Amos Cele's house should be attacked."
	You did not state that the decision taken was to kill the persons concerned, but you only referred to the attack on the house of Amos Cele.
MR R.B. CELE: As I have explained, the decision to kill those people came later and it had not been decided in that meeting.  It came from this other people.  It was ...

CHAIRPERSON: May I interrupt you, I am sorry to do that because I don't think we are on the same page, I understand that.  What I want to know is why in your statement you did not refer to that decision, you only referred to a decision having been taken with regard to attacking Amos Cele's house.  Your statement did not refer to the decision to kill the persons concerned.
MR R.B. CELE: There might have been a mistake that was committed, this incident took place a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: When was the statement made, Mr Cele, was this statement not made today?
MR R.B. CELE: No, I did not make it today.

CHAIRPERSON: When was the statement made?
MR R.B. CELE: I think it was last week.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were not recollecting the events better last week?  Yes?
MR R.B. CELE: I did explain that what I am explaining here, is what I remember.  As I am explaining, that decision was taken that they should be killed because they posed a threat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, I just wanted to know why you omitted to include that decision in this statement, which would be a far much more important decision to include in the statement?
MR R.B. CELE: I thought it had been included that we scattered, chasing after this people.

CHAIRPERSON: That has been included, but what has not been included is the fact that you took a decision to kill the people concerned, that is not included in your statement and that is an important decision to have been omitted.  Instead you only included a decision which was to attack Mr Amos Cele's house, you see there is a difference between a decision to attack a house and a decision to kill people, if you read the statement.
MR R.B. CELE: We were going to attack people who were in Amos Cele's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that include Mr Cele himself?
MR R.B. CELE: No,  Mr Cele was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: When you took the decision to kill whoever would be in Mr Cele's house, did you include Mr Cele in your decision?
MR R.B. CELE: We intended to kill the people from Umlazi as well as Bonny Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it your intention also to include Amos Cele as the owner of the kraal where these people had been harboured?
MR R.B. CELE: He would have not suffered because of that action of harbouring these dangerous people.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that your decision extended also to killing Mr Amos Cele, yes or no?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   So these people, group of people from Mr Cele's house, ran away in different directions, did you try to pursue any of them or did you according to the earlier evidence, some of you were left behind to burn the house.  Were you part of those who were at the house or did you pursue any of the people who were running out of the house?
MR R.B. CELE: I chased after the people who had been fleeing because they ran in different directions, so I was part of that group who chased after this people.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Who did you chase?
MR R.B. CELE: I and my group chased after Bonny Cele.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Did you find him or did you catch up with him?
MR R.B. CELE: No, he outran us.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So what did you do after that?
MR R.B. CELE: We then returned back.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Proceed.
MR R.B. CELE: We then came upon Dudu, she was laying at the bus stop, Manyaseni bus stop, she was already dead.  We were then informed that one group, some people from our group, had been responsible for killing her, that those had been the people who had been chasing after her.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Are you telling this Committee that you were not part of the people who physically assaulted Dudu and ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not his evidence Mr Molohlanye.  He definitely participated in assaulting Dudu, that is his evidence.  What he is saying is that he was not present, he didn't witness anything that led to Dudu being killed.  By the time he came back, he discovered that the other group had killed Dudu.  At least that is what he was told when he came back.  When he came back and found her laying at Manyaseni bus stop.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   Then what happened after you found Dudu laying at the bus stop, Mr Cele?
MR R.B. CELE: We then dispersed, went to our respective homes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you please tell us what happened on  the 28th of December, the same year, that is 1989?

MR MALAN: Just before you move on to the next incident.  You, the group, after you went back to Amos Cele's house, can you just say to us, did you stop over there when you got to the house?
MR R.B. CELE: No.

MR MALAN: Can I take you to your paragraph 8 on the statement that you made.  I take you to this part which begins, it is the fourth line from the end of paragraph 8 -		"... it was then decided that Amos Cele's house should be attacked."
	Can you see that?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: "... all the people in the house ran away into different directions and the house was burnt."
	Is that correct?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, the house was burnt.

MR MALAN: "... so we were divided into groups, trying to pursue these people."
	Is that correct?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, we did divide ourselves into different groups.

MR MALAN: Okay, so the house was burnt?
MR R.B. CELE: The house was already burning at the time.