Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-03

MR BOOYENS: During the proceedings in the Motherwell trial, where you 
were an accused, can you remember that Mr De Kock only later during the 
proceedings, gave evidence after Snyman's evidence?

MR KOK: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Can you remember that order?

MR KOK: The State reopened its case and that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you say the State reopened its case and then De Kock's 
evidence was presented.

MR KOK: Mr Snyman was a witness right from the start.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: No questions on behalf of Mr Ras, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius for the seventh applicant, Vermeulen, I have no 
questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Kok, briefly at page 95 of the record, 
page 4 of your application, it appears that in 1980 you decided to go and study 
theology at the University of Pretoria. Is that right?

MR KOK: That is correct.

MR FORD: Do you regard yourself as a religious person?

MR KOK: I regard myself as a Christian, not a religious person. (Laughter).

MR FORD: Well, then obviously it was Christianity which you were to study 
at the University of Pretoria?

MR KOK: That is correct.

MR FORD: Do you know the tenth Commandment says "thou shalt not kill"?

MR KOK: Yes, I know that.

MR FORD: At some stage, notwithstanding your religious convictions, Mr 
Kok, you made, it appears, an election that you were not to abide by that 
Commandment? What made you decide that?

MR KOK: The circumstances allowed that I could not study any further.

MR FORD: No, I think you know what my question is.  When did you decide 
that you were not going to abide by the Commandment which says "thou shalt 
not kill"?

MR KOK: It was not a question of a specific time when I made that decision, 
it was a conviction I had that I was serving my country and my people.

MR FORD: Did you realise that as your career in the police progressed, that 
you were going to be required to participate in the killing of people?

MR KOK: I served on the border where people were killed and the struggle 
in which we were involved, against the previous enemy, the ANC/SACP 
Alliance, would cause this in the end.

MR FORD: And you were prepared to continue with that work 
notwithstanding the fact that you would be required to kill people?

MR KOK: Yes, I did, yes.

MR FORD: And when the order was given to go with Mr Du Toit to Port 
Elizabeth, you were under no illusions, as you have said, but that you were 
going to prepare for the killing of people?

MR KOK: That is correct.

MR FORD: And I think we have already heard, it would, as a more junior 
member of the police force, it would have been difficult for you to refuse that 
order at that stage?

MR KOK: It was not a question of refusing to follow an order.  It was a 
question of loyalty.

MR FORD: But your, what I am putting to you, Mr Kock, is that your choice 
came much earlier. There must have come a stage when you realised that you 
were being driven into a position where you were going to be committing acts, 
which were not only illegal, but which were irreconcilable with your religious 
convictions?

MR KOK: It is difficult to justify, as a Christian to justify that lives are 
taken.

MR FORD: You see we are not only talking of a war situation where they are 
shooting at you and you are shooting back at them, this is prepared execution.

MR KOK: With a purpose, yes.

MR FORD: And you didn't have a problem with that?

MR KOK: I didn't have a problem with that at that stage, because in the light 
of the struggle against us - perhaps you were not exposed to all the 
circumstances and to the methods and techniques used by the opposition.

MR FORD: May I have a moment, Mr Chairman? I have no further questions, 
Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Just to place it in perspective, in the same Bible where it is 
stated you may not kill, there are many stories of people who are being killed.  
So it is not strange to the religion that there were also religious battles and 
that people were killed in battles.

MR KOK: The most intense wars are waged because of religion.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you know you had to kill your colleagues?

MR KOK: I did not know who the targets were. They were not known. As I 
have already said, at the stage when it comes to my level, I accepted the 
motivation and I had no grounds to question that.

ADV POTGIETER: It did not matter who they were, women or children?

MR KOK: I trusted the integrity of the people who gave the order, that we 
are not waging a war against women and children.  You are not interested in 
whom they were, this was just purely technical support. I was not involved in 
the elimination. I just prepared the device. I was not involved in the 
elimination.

ADV POTGIETER: What device?

MR KOK: I just prepared the explosive device.

ADV POTGIETER: But that was the device which killed the people?

MR KOK: That is correct. My part in the operation was only to prepare the 
device.

ADV POTGIETER: But it did not bother you against whom that would be 
used?

MR KOK: I absolutely trusted Waal du Toit, and there was no reason to 
doubt that he will involve me without any reason.

ADV POTGIETER: It did not matter whether innocent people were killed, 
you did not care, you just prepared the device. You only believed in Du Toit.

MR KOK: No, I believed in principles. I never acted against innocent people.

ADV POTGIETER: Would it have made a difference if you know you prepare 
this deadly explosive, to kill colleagues?

MR KOK: I would still have tried - it would have made a difference, but I 
would have tried to view it objectively.  Different people - at the stage that it 
came to my level, we had no control concerning the execution of the order.

ADV POTGIETER: You are referring to the methods of the so-called enemy, 
how horrible they were and that was your motivation, if I understand it 
correctly. That was why you to a certain degree you felt that it was justified to 
be involved.

MR KOK: No, Mr Chairman, the ANC/SACP Alliance waged war against us, 
and I can read a part of my application if me want to.

ADV POTGIETER: It is not necessary, I have read through all of it.

MR KOK: No, the methods they used, not so much that, but they manned all 
those structures and they tried to destroy them.

ADV POTGIETER: In this case it was not the ANC, they were colleagues in 
the security police.

MR KOK: I am repeating.  It was merely a technical support action.  One 
feels sorry about the loss of life.

ADV POTGIETER: Precisely.

MR KOK: Because I view it as something given to us by God.
It is a pity and it is tragic that the lives of people have so little value, and I 
am not referring to only us in South Africa, but the whole of the world.  What 
happened in the past is a great pity and everyone of us must decide what we 
did with the past and what contribution we will make for the future.

ADV POTGIETER: Especially for you, who was interested in theology, this 
was important.

MR KOK: That is true.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, when you saw, when you were called into Du 
Toit's office, do I understand your evidence, it was then that he merely told 
you that you were to make preparations for explosives to be put in some 
motorcar.

MR KOK: He shortly explained to me what the circumstances were, not in 
any detail, and he told me that I had to prepare for a specific kind of device.

MR BRINK: At that stage then you weren't aware that it was to be used to kill 
people?

MR KOK: No, it was an explosive device to eliminate people.

MR BRINK: But you didn't know who those people were at that stage?

MR KOK: Not at all.

MR BRINK: When did you learn the identity of the people that you were 
prepare the explosive for?