Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

CHAIRPERSON: Did he join the South African Police in 1985?  He is reading it as saying that he joined the South African Police and during 1985 to 88, as a member of the South African Police.  He met him on many opportunities in Bloemfontein.  He is reading this paragraph as saying that he was in the South African Police in 1985 to 1988.  Is that not what you are doing, Mr Motsamai?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is the true fact.

MR VISSER: Well, I am sorry that I am not, I do not understand, Mr Chairman, but can you just tell us, do you deny that Ngo was in the police in 1985 to 1988?  Is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not deny that fact, but before he joined the SAP he was a student working with us.

MR VISSER: Yes, and the next sentence, Mr Motsamai.
"... I never worked with him as a member of the SAP, as members of the SAP ..."
Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Than sentence is incorrect.

MR VISSER: Okay and I think you are correct in saying that it is incorrect, because, clearly, he was a member of the South African Police in Bloemfontein during the first part of 1986.  We know that that is the evidence.  All right, the next paragraph, (v)?  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, because I did not have the knowledge of what was explained.

MR VISSER: Now, let us come to a more vital part of your affidavit.  The next paragraph, (vi), and let me deal with this paragraph with you, Mr Motsamai.  You said in this paragraph that you have no knowledge of an abduction of White Mohapi.  Is that the truth?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I did not have the knowledge, but there were people who told me that he was kidnapped.

MR VISSER: So, you were aware of it by hearsay, is what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Right.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The sentence then continues to say that you were definitely not involved in that abduction.  Is that the truth?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was never involved.  However, I participated before he was arrested.  Not actually participation. People who participated were those that I saw.

MR VISSER: Well, whatever that means.  You then say the same applies, that means that you were definitely not involved as far as the alleged assault on Mohapi is concerned.  Is that the truth?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Is that sentence the last sentence, is the last sentence, in fact, the truth that you had nothing to do with the assault on Mr Mohapi, Mr White Mohapi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I want to ask you this.  Are you referring this to Ngo or this to me?  Is it based on Ngo' evidence?

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, I thought it is perfectly clear what we are doing.  We are reading from your affidavit and I am simply asking you is it the truth what is written in this affidavit that you are supposed to have stated that you have, that you were definitely ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are getting onto the stated and you are going to raise all sorts of difficulties, Mr Visser.  I thought we were merely asking is it true or not.  Is it true or not that you were not, in any way, connected with the assault on Mohapi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was involved when we instructed him to do frog-jumps.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, the incident to which this paragraph refers is the kidnapping of Mr Mohapi and I am told, listen to me, I am told that when you were discussing this in Mr Wagenaar's office you used bundle C, page 12, as the basis for your consultations.  This is what you were talking about.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Are you referring to bundle C, page 12?

MR VISSER: I am, indeed, Mr Motsamai.

CHAIRPERSON: That is sub-division A in bundle C.

MR VISSER: I was just waiting for the witness to turn to page 12 and I was going to refer him, thank you Mr Chairman.  It is A and the (a) which says,
"... during the course of 1986 I took part in the kidnapping of the Secretary of Cosas, White Mohapi, of Pahameng, Bloemfontein.  During this incident, which occurred during the 1986 student uprisings, I was accompanied by Warrant Officer Tsoametsi, Sergeant Mamome, Constable Mtyala ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Somebody is trying to interpret this Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: I am so sorry, I forgot.  So sorry.  I think I should repeat it then.  Thank you for reminding me.
"... during the course of 1986 I took part in the kidnapping of the Secretary of Cosas, White Mohapi, of Pahameng, Bloemfontein.  During this incident, which occurred during the 1986 students uprisings, I was accompanied by Warrant Officer Tsoametsi, Sergeant Mamome, Constable Mtyala and Motsamai ...",
that is you.
"... we took Mohapi to an open veld somewhere between Bloemspruit and Shannon ..."
S H A N N O N it is spelt here,
"... where we assaulted him with hammers and crowbars.  Throughout this incident we had covered our faces so that Mohapi could not recognise us and we left him in the field."
Was this not what was discussed between you and Mr Wagenaar during your private consultation with him when you went to Pretoria?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We did discuss this.  We did discuss this.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Again, he did this so as to mention these people where Ngo, as Ngo stated, I told him.  He stated these names.  That is a fact, I was not here, I was not involved.  I emphasise.

MR VISSER: So, are you then saying, Mr Motsamai, that paragraph (vi) at page 30 is, in fact, correct, the last sentence?  That you told Mr Wagenaar that you were in no way part of the assault on Mr Mohapi?
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the question is not fair.  It is not justified to add the words "told". The question that was put is whether that is true or not.  It does not go according to his evidence to say that he told Mr Wagenaar.  He said that Mr Wagenaar was reading from notes and he was telling him the things that appeared from the notes.

ADV DE JAGER: He also said he denied all the names.  So, he responded to what was read to him.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood that he said a moment ago, we did discuss this.  That is him and Wagenaar.  You told us, did you not, that you and Wagenaar discussed this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He read.  Afterwards he would look at me and remove that name there.  He read to me and I could hear what he did.  He wanted to get rid of what Ngo was saying here, taking out all the names that, where everybody was involved in Ngo's application.

ADV DE JAGER: But let us come back now to paragraph, the (vi).  What you stated there or what is stated there as far as,
"... an assault on Mr Mohapi ..."
is concerned.  That is correct, is it not, as far as you were not involved in the assault on Mr Mohapi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: When we come to this thing of kidnapping, but before he went to the cell, I did participate and ordered him to perform frog-jumps in the office.

ADV DE JAGER: But now you, they are referring to the assault with the hammers in the veld where he was left after the abduction, paragraph 12, that you discussed with Mr Wagenaar.  Did you take part in the assault with the hammers on Mr Mohapi?  Were you there?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I was not involved there.  I was not even present.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Commissioner de Jager.  So, that last sentence of paragraph (vi) is correct.  Can we go on to (vii).  Can you read that for yourself or do you want me to read it for you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was not involved.  Mr Wagenaar took out my name as it appeared here.

MR VISSER: Is what is stated in (vii) correct, is it the truth or is it not true?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was not present in that house, I was not involved there.

MR VISSER: All right.  Let us go on to (viii).