Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR MAZIBUKO: What scared me - how can I put it, I did not have complaints to take them to the committee, we were discussing within ourselves, those who came from the township, as to whether, we were asking ourselves as to whether, or getting reports from those who came from the township, as to whether who is attacked, who is not attacked.  Maybe the people who attacked me could attack my family also.

MR LAX: Yes, but you said you were one of the residents who had complaints about being attacked, and when you were asked to explain you said that it was your family that you were worried about and not yourself.  Do  you understand what I'm tying to put to you?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: So if they weren't attacked, what I'm trying to understand is what complaints did you then have.

MR MAZIBUKO: The main complain was my shooting.

MR LAX: But that was a matter that was over and done with already before you even came to KwaMadala.

MR MAZIBUKO: I went to Madala hostel whilst I was still limping, immediately after I had been shot.  It was not after a long time.

MR LAX: You said during your evidence that it was your job to break windows, that's how you described it.  You were busy with your job breaking windows, that is how you put it, what did you mean by that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was explaining that I did not attack any person, what I was busy with at that time was breaking windows.

MR LAX: So the main thing that you did was break windows.  How many houses did you break windows in?

MR MAZIBUKO: Many houses, many houses.  My hand was tired the way I was using it to break the windows.

MR LAX: Can you estimate, more than 10, more than 20, more than 30?

MR MAZIBUKO: That would be a small number if I said 20 or 30, I am not able to explain how many houses.  I entered Boipatong, I started breaking windows and at the end I was still breaking windows.

MR LAX: You see, you were asked by Mr Berger
"Why did you break the windows?"
And you said you broke the windows to see whether there were SDU members inside, do you remember that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I remember when I was saying - Mr Berger asked me how did it come that we should break windows whilst we went there to attack the SDUs, I said the reason is that for us to break windows is that when we were shooting some of the SDUs went into the yards and we were not able to see where they were hiding, we thought maybe they are in those houses.  That is why we started breaking those windows.  That is what I remember saying.

MR LAX: But surely, after the first few houses where you saw nobody inside, you must have realised they must have carried on running and disappeared somewhere else? Why was it necessary to break so many houses' windows?

MR MAZIBUKO: It just happened, to break windows.  Others were entering into the houses, so it just happened.  No-one said to somebody you should stop because those people are not there, we cannot find them in those houses, let me stop breaking those windows.

MR LAX: Well wasn't it rather that you wanted to teach this community a lesson, you went around destroying their property, isn't that really what you were doing?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's what I've explained, that something of that sort would happen again, that one of the families would die and the property is destroyed and the windows are destroyed.  That's one of those reasons.

MR LAX: I'm asking you whether that was your intention in doing that.

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that was not my intention to do that.  For me to break those windows it just happened, it was not a premeditated intention that when I got to Boipatong I should break windows.  It just happened.

MR LAX: So you don't know  why you broke those windows?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not give a specific reason.  What I am saying is that we just started breaking windows because we thought the SDUs ran into those houses.

MR LAX: But they couldn't have run into all the houses whose windows you broke, you mentioned more than 30.

MR MAZIBUKO: May you please repeat the question?

MR LAX: You've mentioned that you broke more than 30 houses and that would be a small number you said.  They couldn't have run into all those houses.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, they would not be able to run into all of those houses.

MR LAX: So what we're trying to understand is what  your objective was in breaking those windows.

MR MAZIBUKO: I did not have an intention as to why I was breaking those windows.  I saw others continuing breaking the windows and then I started breaking the windows.

MR LAX: You just got carried away, is that what you are saying?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: You see earlier in your evidence you also spoke about, when we were talking about teaching the community a lesson, the residents a lesson, you said that if they wouldn't reprimand the SDU members the same thing that happened in Boipatong would happen again, and you said people would lose their properties.  That's how you described it.

MR MAZIBUKO: I'll explain it in this way.  I was saying if they don't reprimand them that would happen again.  I would say that would stick in their mind, that if you have kidnapped one Inkatha member, kill him or burn him, they would know that anything would happen. It may happen that these people would come and pay revenge.  They would have the same problems which we encountered before.

MR LAX: The point I'm trying to make is, was losing their properties part of the lesson that you were teaching them?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mazibuko, you said there was a fight between yourself ...(inaudible).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR SIBANYONI: To whom were you referring by "fellow comrades"?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike was not on, it cuts.  Can you please repeat your question?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.  Mr Mazibuko, at the beginning of your evidence you said while you were living in Sebokeng there was a fight between yourself and your fellow comrades, to whom were  you referring by "fellow comrades"?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was referring to the ANC supporters in Sebokeng.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you at any stage an ANC supporter yourself?

MR MAZIBUKO: I've never been a member or a supporter of the ANC.

MR SIBANYONI: But why do you refer to them as "fellow comrades", as if you are with them?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I did not refer to them as "fellow comrades" but what I said is I was a friend to a guy called Ntwana.  So that time he was a member of the IFP, so there were allegations that I was also a member of the IFP.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, that's the single question.

ADV SIGODI: It was put to some of the other applicants that women were raped, did you see any of that happening?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not see that happen.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know Sonny Michael Mkwanazi?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know him very well.

ADV SIGODI: Did you see him on that day?

MR MAZIBUKO: I did not see him.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Prior the attack on Boipatong your family
had never been attacked.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you been attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you fear that your family might be attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I had that fear that my family would be attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is the fear that you would have had in regard to your relatives?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct, that is what worried me a lot.

CHAIRPERSON: So you couldn't possibly have had any complaint?

MR MAZIBUKO: There was nothing else, the only thing that worried me was my parents' safety.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why didn't you tell us that, that you feared that your family might be attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: I do not understand the question clearly.