Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: members who wereinvolved in the Task Force, but we knew nothing about them. We didn't know thatthey were members of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , I was trained by them. Everything was organised bythe

<UNKNOWN>: ommander of the Task Force. I was trained by them with my fellow

<UNKNOWN>: fricans.The ones that police were looking for.

<UNKNOWN>: ould I go back fora moment, I just want to make sure I've got the thing down. Did you say youlast saw Vusi two to three months before the attack?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: The lasttime I saw Vusi, it was before the attack, and he was supposed to leave in twoor three months time.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How long before the attack was itthat you last saw him though?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I can say a month before theattack, or either three weeks, I am not really sure.

<UNKNOWN>: anI just check that your previous answer was properly interpreted to me. Did yousay the last time you saw him, it was intended that he would leave three monthsafter that?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: The only thing he told me is that he won't be inthe area for two to three months.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: So he said he was goingaway for two to three months, not going away in two to three months time? Isthat correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes, that is what I was trying to say.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Now, you say that in the criminal trial in this matter, you werenot telling the truth to the court?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you also said in the trial that you were assaulted and by that assault forcedinto making statements, confessions, is that correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Do you still say that you were assaulted in that manner and doyou still say that your statements were made because of an assault?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What is your response to the Judge's finding thatyou were laying when you said that?

<UNKNOWN>: an you please repeat thequestion?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What is your response to the Judge's findingin the criminal trial that you were laying when you said you had been assaultedand interrogated?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I've heard the Judge saying I am laying,but I was facing a very difficult time at that moment so I couldn't bring infront the evidence that I was tortured and beaten. I did hear him, but I triedto show him that I was tortured. There was nothing I could do when he said Iwas not beaten.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: There was a long investigation at the trialinto whether you were beaten or not, is that correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I knowthat.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you had an

<UNKNOWN>: dvocate,

<UNKNOWN>: dvocate Desai representingyou in that trial, is that also correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you gave him instructions and you told him everything that had happenedto you and he put all that before the court, is that correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Now, I am putting to you that the record of thoseproceedings dealing only with the question of whether you were assaulted ornot, runs into almost 1 000 pages.

<UNKNOWN>: t the end of that investigation, the Judgestill found that you were telling lies when you said that you were assaulted.Do you still insist that you were assaulted in interrogation?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You see if the Judge after that long investigationwhich I have described and after you say your

<UNKNOWN>: dvocate put your story to thecourt, if he found that you were laying, then how are we to believe otherwisetoday?

CHAIRPERSON: He is telling you that he disagrees with what the Judgefound. That is what the essence of his evidence was.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, I felt it necessary however, to give him that opportunity, since itwill clearly be for me to argue that if the Judge found that, then we shouldsimilarly found that.

CHAIRPERSON: You can argue that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well, I thought I should merely give him an opportunity to comment on that argument.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It will be a very interesting argument. Just because somebody elsedisbelieved him, we must disbelieve him?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You made two statementsto the police, is that not so Mr Makoma? You made one ...

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE You made one to Detective Segal on the 14th of

<UNKNOWN>: ugust and thenyou made one to Major Lester on the 15th of

<UNKNOWN>: ugust?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Those thatwere taken to the court were the only two, but I've made many statements, morethan two.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Is it not so that the statement you made on the14th of

<UNKNOWN>: ugust is very much the same as the statement you made on the 15th of

<UNKNOWN>: ugust?

<UNKNOWN>: an you please repeat your question?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Is it not correct that the statement you made on the 14th of

<UNKNOWN>: ugust, is thesame or very much the same, as the one you made on the 15th of

<UNKNOWN>: ugust?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Whether they do look similar or not, the only thing I know is thatI was forced to make those statements.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Now, if we lookat your statement that you made on the 14th of

<UNKNOWN>: ugust, in that statement yousay that two weeks before the attack on St James, you saw Vusi at a taxi rankin Site

<UNKNOWN>: , that he told you that he was going to Kenilworth, that he told youthat he used to go to a restaurant there, but that on this occasion he was goingthere to find a place to attack? Why did you say that?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I willanswer your question. It is because I was tortured, that is why I made thatstatement. If you still continue asking those questions, I won't have to answerthose because the torture effected me badly. If you still continue, you willmake me rude.

INTERPRETER: If I may interject there Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, the interpretationthere was not exact. The applicant said that I will then find myself in a situationwhere I say things that I did not mean to say, then the interpreter interpretedthat as rude, which is not quite the same.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In fact he saysI will say things that I wouldn't like to say.

<UNKNOWN>: ut wheredid you get this idea from that you had met Vusi at the taxi rank, where didthat come from, that idea?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I told you that police knew Vusi.

<UNKNOWN>: y the time I was arrested, I was facing some problems. The policemen said Imust agree with what they are telling me as they are telling me. Under differentcircumstances, the way they were torturing me, so I had to make up some storieslike this one. The one you are saying they are statements.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Makoma, you told us now that if counsel would continue to ask you questions,you would tell us things that you wouldn't like to tell us. Is that correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Would that be the truth you will be tellingus? Would that be the truth that you are going to tell us, that you wouldn'tlike to tell us?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: What I am trying to clarify here or to bringup, they didn't accept this in court. Political parties have informers. I wasnot an experienced soldier, I had a problem when I met policemen who had fullinformation that some of them, I don't know. I was tortured, beaten, I couldn'tsleep, I was not eating. Under those circumstances I had to do many things sothat I can run away from this thing.

<UNKNOWN>: lthough the policemen didn't bring thatthing up or forward. I tried to kill myself, but they found that. I took thegun from the police, not in the intention to kill them, but to kill myself becauseI was in a very, very difficult situation.