Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR ARMOED: The person who told me indicated that it was going to patrol block E and F.

MR SIBANYONI: If such an SDU had been formed, the result would have been that the Youth League would then be patrolling the whole of Moleleki section?

MR ARMOED: If it had succeeded, they would have patrolled block F only, it would not patrol the whole Moleleki section.

MR SIBANYONI: Ja.   But I thought that at the time they were already patrolling block A, B, C and D?

MR ARMOED: Will you please repeat?

MR SIBANYONI: Well, you mentioned earlier on that you, the SDU accepted that the Youth League was patrolling blocks A, B, C and D?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, a further meeting was held, which was to discuss the formation of an SDU which was to patrol block F, and you mentioned earlier on that, according to your information, that SDU was going to patrol E and F, right?

MR ARMOED: The new SDU was going to patrol only block F, that is if it had succeeded.

MR SIBANYONI: And this new SDU would have comprised of the Youth League?

MR ARMOED: Yes, the Youth League would be the members of the very same new SDU.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, if they had been successful in the formation of the new SDU, the end result would be that the Youth League would be patrolling the whole of Moleleki section?

MR ARMOED: They would not patrol the entire Moleleki section, they would only patrol section F, I mean block F, because we were in the other sections or blocks.

MR SIBANYONI: But, Mr Armoed, you've just told us that the Youth League was patrolling block A, B, C and D?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I did say that, that the Youth League patrolled from A to D, and they went on to patrol in F.

MR SIBANYONI: What I'm saying to you is that if they now, if now a new SDU was being formed, which consisted of members of the Youth League, which was going to patrol E and F, the end result would be that the Youth League would then patrol whole of Moleleki section?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: The SDU did not accept this?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you know of any actions that were taken by the SDU to make sure that this did not happen?

MR ARMOED: No, I don't know any action taken.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you aware of any meetings that were held by the SDU at which it was decided what course of action had to be taken in order to prevent the Youth League from patrolling the whole of Moleleki section?

MR ARMOED: No, there's nothing I knew about that.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, coming to the persons that were killed on the 7th of December 1993, do you know why these individuals were killed?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I know.

MR SIBANYONI: Why were they killed?

MR ARMOED: They were killed because they were gangsters who had killed Bulelwa and Blanko.

MR ARMOED: You do know the deceased Wipstein(?)?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I know him.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you know how he died?

MR ARMOED: No, I don't.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you know him before his death?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I knew him before he died.

MR SIBANYONI: I understand that he was, was he a leader of the youth?

MR ARMOED: Yes, he was leader of the youth.

MR SIBANYONI: When did you hear for the first time that he had died?

MR ARMOED: I cannot remember.   If I am not mistaken, it was on the 10th of December, that is when I heard that he had died.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you consider him to have been the leader of what you consider to be the gangsters?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you at any stage make inquiries as to how he had died?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I tried to find out how he died.

MR SIBANYONI: What were you told?

MR ARMOED: I was told that he is the one who shot Bulelwa and Blanko, and he was with these people at night.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, but were you told how he had died?

MR ARMOED: No, they did not tell me how he died.

MR SIBANYONI: But did you yourself make inquiries as to how the leader of what you perceived to be the gangsters had died?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I tried how he died, to find out how he died, but the people whom I was asking did not know how he died.

MR SIBANYONI: Today do you know how he died?

MR ARMOED: His death and as to how he died, I only know he died because he killed Bulelwa and Blanko.

MR SIBANYONI: What I'm trying to establish is, as you are sitting here giving testimony, do you know how Vips was killed?

MR ARMOED: I don't know how he was killed.   I heard that he was killed around Khumalo, or at Khumalo, and he was killed for what he had done in Moleleki Extension 2.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you hear who killed him?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I heard.

MR SIBANYONI: Who killed him?

MR ARMOED: It was Manyala.

MR SIBANYONI: And who else?

MR ARMOED: Koos, Koos.

MR SIBANYONI: Is Koos one of the applicants?

MR ARMOED: No, he is not here.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you know how they killed him?

MR ARMOED: No, I don't know how they killed him, but according to my understanding, he was found in Khumalo and they captured him there.   They asked him what he did in Extension 2, Moleleki, and he explained that "We killed Bulelwa and Blanko".

MR SIBANYONI: Who told you all this?

MR ARMOED: Comrade Manyala told me all this, gave me all this information.

MR SIBANYONI: Did Comrade Manyala, by the way Comrade Manyala is now dead, is it?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Did Manyala tell you precisely how they killed them?

MR ARMOED: Yes, he explained a little bit how they killed him.

MR SIBANYONI: What did he tell you?

MR ARMOED: He told me they asked him, "Vips, why you did this?", and he explained that they were sent by Comrade Buthelezi to kill Bulelwa and Blanko, and they just took him and killed him.

MR SIBANYONI: And how did they kill him?

MR ARMOED: They took him to the veld where they shot him.

MR SIBANYONI: And did he tell you what they did with his body?

MR ARMOED: No, they didn't tell me what they did with his body.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is deceased No 11, Isaac Mbijana Motloung, the person described as Vips?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, chairperson, he's Isaac Vips, his other name is Bijan.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Armoed, did you know Vips's names?

MR ARMOED: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: What were his names?

MR ARMOED: I don't know his full names, I only know the name Vips.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, if I may be of assistance, there's a human rights violations statement which appears on page 178 onwards.   That statement, chairperson, at page 179, reflects Isaac Mbijana Vips Motloung.   The statement, chairperson, was made by Selena Dombismene Motloung.

MR SIBANYONI: No, no, I'm looking for the post-mortem report.   Yes, very well.   Now, because Vips was the leader of the Youth League, did you make any inquiries at the time when you were killing the other individuals as to where Vips was?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I asked them, the other Youth League members, and they told me that they had left, they had gone to Khumalo, that is Khumalo section.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, is there anything ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: Yes, just two questions.

UNKNOWN: Mr Armoed, sections A to D, were they an entry point to Moleleki or an exit point?

MR ARMOED: They were entry points when you were going to other sections, these were entry points A and B.

UNKNOWN: A and B was the entry point?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Because A and B was an entry point, was it therefore strategic when one was controlling the Moleleki section?

MR ARMOED: Yes, we can say they were strategic points.

UNKNOWN: Why was it strategic?

MR ARMOED: Because on entering, this was the entry point, and on leaving, this was the exit point.

UNKNOWN: Was it your perception that the Youth League wanted to have control of the exit and entry point to the section?

MR ARMOED: Yes, they wanted to control the very same place, the very same area, that is the entry and exit point.