Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir first of all because I was given the opportunity to become part of the reconciliation process and by nature of the situation there is a lot of things that I do not feel very good about but that I justify within my position within a State organisation.   I am here first of all because I want to make use of this opportunity and secondly, because I want to show that I have got regret and I would like to continue with my life.  It is a period of 11 years since this incident took place and in the meantime my personal life went downhill.  My connection to the CCB was not very good for my business.  I suffered a lot of financial losses because of my involvement in the CCB.  So in short Sir, I would like to take part in a reconciliation process.  I believe in the new State dispensation and I would like to declare myself willing to take part in this process.

MR VAN ECK: Do you regret what you did?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I do.

MR VAN ECK: Did you commit any of these acts out of vengeance towards any person?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not at any stage.

MR VAN ECK: Were any of these acts aimed beyond the political context?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: Did you draw any personal benefit with the exception of your regular remuneration?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: With the exception of the amount that I mentioned pertaining to the Rosscam matter, no.

MR VAN ECK: And that which Mr Barnard gave you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: You have heard the evidence of Mr Barnard and the influence that this whole process had on him, what influence has the process had on you and how do you feel towards the persons who were affected detrimentally by your actions, particularly the bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I have seen the effect that it has had on Ferdi Barnard and I would like to say that for similar reasons I was anxious to testify to get the burden off my shoulders as well.  I think it was very clear from the beginning what my relationship was with Mrs Omar for example, and the members of the youth who were represented here, and from the very beginning, and I say this within context, I reached out to them, not because I felt it to be out of guilt, but I wanted to reach out and apologise.  I had done this before I testified.  Briefly I saw what the process had done to Mr Barnard and he was quite a tough nut to crack and this process definitely broke him.  So therefore I would also like to express my regret and my remorse unconditionally to those who were involved and to ask for their forgiveness.

MR VAN ECK: Do you share Mr Barnard's sentiments?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I do.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Chairman if you can bear with me for one moment.  Mr Botha is there anything that you would like to add in terms of the evidence you have given?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, with the exception that in conclusion I would once again like to express my gratitude to the Committee for the opportunity to state my case openly and in so doing to get my involvement in these things out of the way once and for all and to live the rest of my life with a clear conscience and perhaps I could eradicate the scars that the last 11 years have left on my life and resume some sense of normality.

MR VAN ECK: Thank you Mr Chairman I have got no further questions at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ECK

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr van Eck.  Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: Mr Bizos and I will work together for a change.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to.....

MR WESSELS: Mr Bizos will start.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to start Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes if I may. We co-operated to that extent.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me just start, Mr Botha, where you finished off, or almost finished off.  You got R200,000 ...(intervention)

MR VAN ECK: Sorry Mr Chairman if I may interrupt, Mr Bizos I apologise for that, my client requests this Committee or this hearing can just adjourn for a very short time.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take five minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	You got a package of approximately R200,000 which is approximately five years of your salary, is that right?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did not calculate it like that but the amount is more-or-less correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Because you got it in advance, capitalised, you really got a value of over R300,000 for less than 18 months almost non-service.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes Mr Bizos I think you are putting it out of perspective.  I think it's about the time that I already sacrificed by being in the police and the pain and suffering that I endured on behalf of the State till my discharge.

GEORGE BIZOS: Suffering.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I beg your pardon?

GEORGE BIZOS: You inflicted pain and suffering.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: With respect that's your personal opinion.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wouldn't you agree that victims suffered greater pain and suffering than the perpetrators?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: From your perspective yes, but just remember I also have a family.  I have heard what you have said with regard to my involvement meaning that I must have had a choice to do it or not.  I exercised the choice to do it but I did not foresee that I would have to bear this pain and inconvenience.  I believed in the hierarchy that brainwashed us.  I grew up within a milieu where the apartheid dispensation was the order of the day and perhaps you should incorporate that background.

GEORGE BIZOS: I hear all that.  We haven't come to your political motivation yet, we just want to get some facts.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I am referring to the ideology.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  We just want to get some facts about the money that you got.  Did you get the impression that those responsible for paying you the money were paying you in part in order to secure your silence?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I never experienced it that way.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you were also visited whilst you were under Section 29 detention by Krappies Engelbrecht and another senior officer, did they threaten you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes they did threaten me.

GEORGE BIZOS: For the purposes of keeping you silent?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you take the threats seriously?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I took it very seriously.  If I could explain to the Commission what Brigadier Krappies Engelbrecht showed me, he made like this, or else like that.  So that was reason to take it quite seriously.

GEORGE BIZOS: You are saying that he put his finger over his mouth and said or else - by pulling his finger across his throat.  Clearly indicating that you would be killed.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That I would be silenced, yes, what ever it meant.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Did that have an effect on you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Definitely, I don't know if you have visited anybody under Section 29 detention.  I was the average citizen who had never ever been exposed to that class of treatment, so by nature of the situation it had a tremendous influence on me - to this very day.  I still experience certain impressions which the cells left on me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is General Krappies Engelbrecht still around?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept that he is.  I have not had contact with him again.  I have seen him now and then in the media but I have no contact with him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you still afraid of him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It's not that I was afraid of Krappies Engelbrecht, I was afraid of the system, the structure of the organisation, the individuals who were trained to kill.  I was afraid of them.  I wasn't afraid of Brigadier Engelbrecht, per se.

GEORGE BIZOS: But did you feel that General Engelbrecht had a hold on those having the power to kill you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There must have been a bond and I am sure that he conveyed messages through people.