Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, let's leave the issue of the CR.  Let's go back to my question.  Is it correct Mr Mfene that the officers were brought into the hall pointed with firearms?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I said I am not going to dispute that because they know Mr Mfene and they know the people who had pointed them with guns, so they are the people who are in a position to explain that better.  I did not do that to them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct, Mr Mfene, that officers were taken out of their offices at gun point by you and other policemen?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: At the time the officers were taken out of their offices during my presence, it was taking place in the college premises.   No firearms were pointed at people.  Only a few officers were there and we went to tell them that the commissioner told us to go and wait there for him at the hall.  There was no wrestling, they just stood up nicely and we went to wait at the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you still remember the officers you were personally involved when they were told to go to the hall?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, I still remember them.  It was Brig Bungusa and two white policemen and they say those policemen were seconded to Ciskei police, they were at the college at the time.  Those are the only people that I can still remember because they were in the office.  I remember telling them that message, but I did not go to any other place.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now I just want to know, because from your evidence you have never committed any offence, why did you ask for amnesty because you've deprived liberty and held hostage, conspired with or incited other persons to cause mutiny, why did you apply for that?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: There reason for me to apply for amnesty, after that I ended up believing that I committed an offence that is mutiny, and I was given a suspended sentence, that is why I am here today to ask for amnesty.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, is it also correct that there have been some civil claims against you?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now obviously your aim of applying for amnesty is just that you want the sentence to be done away with and also you want the civil claims to be - you don't want to pay in respect of the civil claims?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No, that is not correct.  The reason for me to apply for amnesty is because perhaps the other police were not in the same position that I was in, or they were not there in that situation, but they ended up being involved and the other policemen were, found themselves in a difficult position because of the action that I took and I then apply for amnesty for all those things.  It's a combination of reasons.

MR NOMPOZOLO: No, no, Mr Mfene.  Mr Mfene you were called to a meeting by the commissioner.  In the meeting like other policemen who were there, you were asking questions, wanting clarification and by doing so you did not commit any offence.  Am I correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No, you have missed it because after this - as you are explaining it simple like that, there was a case that was laid, a case of kidnapping and mutiny after that whole incident, that is why today I am forced to apply for amnesty.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because you have been sentenced for mutiny.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Because of the fact that this case was explained thoroughly to me and the court found me guilty.

MR NOMPOZOLO: No, the court found you guilty after you pleaded guilty.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, after this concept was explained to me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission what is it that was explained to you so that we are on the same wavelength?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: What was explained to me by my legal representative at the time was that the action that I took together with the other policemen, that there should be no rest on that particular night, there were people also who complained about not sleeping, that sleeping right was taken away from them, and they were taken hostage by the other police.  That is when I understood that was mutiny and I understood, I beg your pardon that was hostage, and they were in a very difficult position.  Our aim was to remove Mr Gqozo so that there should be no problems in Ciskei, but then after they had explained to me that way, I pleaded guilty.

MR NOMPOZOLO: No, no.  Still on the explanation you have given just now, it entitles the magistrate to enter a plea of not guilty.  There is no way, on the explanation you are making, that you could have been found guilty.  So I put it to you that you are not telling the Commission the truth.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Will you please clarify on that?

MR NOMPOZOLO: On the explanation that other policemen committed some offences which are unknown to you, you could not have been found guilty on that because you even explained to your attorney that you did not have an intention to do what those people were doing.  In any event you didn't do it, therefore you couldn't have been found guilty.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I could be found guilty in the sense that among these police, there were other police who had made statements and they removed themselves from this and it became clear that I'm the one who had coerced these people to do that.  That is why today I am applying for amnesty.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You never forced anybody on the 22nd and the 23rd to commit any offence, am I correct?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Where does this concept of mutiny and kidnapping come from because I was not alone when I was charged and I was not alone when I was found guilty, but I am here today and I am here alone to apply for amnesty.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission the offence you have committed because I've been trying to get that from you?  I'm not asking you to tell the Commission what you have been convicted of, I'm asking you to tell the Commission what offence you have committed.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The offence was to overthrow Gqozo as the leader of Ciskei.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Certain you did not do that.  Tell the Commission what is the offence you have committed.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Will you please explain to me why is Gqozo not there today if he was not removed by the action that I took with the other policemen?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let's put it differently.  Suppose you've overthrown Brig Gqozo, now you are not making an application for that here, not so?  You are making an application for amnesty for the acts of hostage and mutiny and kidnapping, all those.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I would like the Commission to understand that if the policemen who are laying charges are among the police who were very close to Gqozo, because when this was happening the intention was to remove Gqozo from his position.  After he had moved away from his position, such cases came about.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have not committed any offence in respect of the victims who are here now, have you?

DR TSOTSI: I'd just like to intervene here please.  Are you saying that the forcible removal of Gqozo from power here is not an act of mutiny?

MR NOMPOZOLO: It could be an act of mutiny but thus far that's not what he has committed against the victims.  The victims are saying that they were taken hostage from their homes, they were kidnapped, taken hostage, kept at police college and subsequently charged for fraud.

DR TSOTSI: Yes that is another offence, isn't it, separate from the offence of mutiny, but what I'm trying to get at is, are you saying that the forcible removal of Brig Gqozo from power was not an act of mutiny?

MR NOMPOZOLO: It could have been but the point is, on his evidence, he did not commit mutiny, on his evidence.  Other people might have committed it, but him, he has not.