Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Were you arrested ever for holding targets?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No.

MR SEMENYA: Can you explain to the Commissioners what you mean by holding target?

GIFT NTOMBENI: At the time there was a slogan make every country a battle field, so that is the slogan that we followed.

MR SEMENYA: Can you say it in simple Zulu, what is it to hold a target?  What does that phrase mean?

GIFT NTOMBENI: We used to wait for delivery vans which were coming into the location, as well as furniture vans, we used to stop these cars and we used to burn them down so that they could not get into the location.

MR SEMENYA: Right.  Now, were you burning cars of furniture etc, at the instruction of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, we hadn't known her at that time.

MR SEMENYA: When were you holding targets then?

GIFT NTOMBENI: It was during 1984, 1985.

MR SEMENYA: And when did you go to join the team?

GIFT NTOMBENI: In 1987.

MR SEMENYA: Really?  Can I read you the statement of - I can even put it to you according to the statements I have in 1987, in April or May of 1987, I am told that the Football Club was dissolved after information from Mr Mandela from Cape Town.

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Chairman, in fairness to the witness, one has to identify whose statement and on what basis the information is offered, one cannot just have it in the air.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Unterhalter, it was he who was speaking and if you will just go through me next time please.  Mr Semenya, could you give us those details.

MR SEMENYA: Can I then refer the witness to a statement we have just recently received of Absolom Dumisani Madosela.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, just before we proceed, could you tell us about this statement, have we heard this witness?

MR VALLY: We have not heard this witness as yet.  We will briefly give you the context in which we obtained the statement, because this person is presently serving a sentence in prison.
 Can I just add one minor item to that before we go on.  We have had extensive evidence from the Mandela Crisis Committee on the whole issue of instructions, regarding the disbanding of the Club by the now President.  We have also had extensive evidence regarding the presence of Club members in uniform, accompanied by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela whilst Mr Semenya is free to put to the witness as to when the Club was formed or disbanded, he cannot state it as a fact that the Club was disbanded in 1987, which I suspect he is trying to do.
 I can give the microphone to Mr Pigou and he can tell you the circumstances in which we took the statement.  Mr Semenya is referring to the statement of Mr Madosela I believe.

MR PIGOU: During the course of the weekend contact was made with myself and Commissioner Ntsebeza and an arrangement was made with the south African Police Service to meet them at Leeukop prison on Sunday.  I was present when we interviewed Mr Madosela and he asked and agreed to make a statement which was taken by the SAPS in my presence, and that is the statement which has been furnished to Mr Semenya.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Semenya, I think the objection was really that if you expect a coherent answer from a witness, it may as well to say exactly where it is coming from and ask him if he knows about the situation.  Just give a few more details please.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, can the witness be shown the statement of Madonsela.

CHAIRPERSON: Arrange that please, thank you.  Could you refer to the page please Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: On what appears to be numbered page 5, which is page 2 of the document, under paragraph 7, the following phrase appears, some time in April or May 1987 Mrs Mandela returned from Cape Town after visiting her husband in prison.
 She then said that Mr Mandela ordered us to disband the soccer club.  I then disbanded the club, I then destroyed the relevant books and documentation.  Did you understand that?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I did.

MR SEMENYA: According to your information, when in 1987 did you join the Club?  When in 1987 did you join the Club?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I don't remember the month and the date.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya, can I just refer you to his written statement which is before us and perhaps you want to ask him about that.  On page 1 he says I joined the Mandela Football Club in January 1987.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know that part of your statement?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I started staying in Mrs Mandela's yard during January.  Not that I joined the Club in January, I started staying there during January 1987.

MR SEMENYA: When did you join the Club then?

GIFT NTOMBENI: When I started staying in the yard.

MR SEMENYA: In your evidence you say that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ordered an assassin to kill you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Who is this assassin?

GIFT NTOMBENI: It was Tobogo.

MR SEMENYA: Are you talking about Tobogo that was shot and killed by the police?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, he is still alive.

MR SEMENYA: Tobogo who?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Tobogo from (indistinct).  It was Tobogo, Brasoli, Mpo in Brasoli's house.

MR SEMENYA: Do you have some details about this Tobogo, his last name or something?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I don't know his surname, but I know where he stays.

MR SEMENYA: Can you give us the address or the neighbourhood where this person stays?

GIFT NTOMBENI: He stays in Vosloorus.

MR SEMENYA: Were you present when Mrs Mandela is requesting this assassin to kill you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I wasn't there.  On that day we were in Orlando and it so happened that I had an AK47 with me.  I was arrested together with Tobogo and Mangena.  And at that time we lost that AK47, they arrested Tobogo, they assaulted them.
 After assaulting them, I was released by the police.  Brasoli had apparently told Nomzamo that Gift had been arrested together with other youths.  Nomzamo came and asked as to which Gift was being referred to, they explained it to her and Tobogo came back to tell me that I am no longer safe, he had been sent to come and kill me and I went to ask Mpo, but Mpo just looked at me and stared at me and she said she knew that Tobogo had been sent to kill me, but she couldn't tell that to me straight.

MR SEMENYA: So, it is the assassin that tells you that I have been sent to come and kill you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: You are saying to us that Sizwe Sithole has a brother called Sinet?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I don't know how were they related, I don't know how to explain this relationship, whether it was his younger brother, but his name was Sinet, he is now late.

MR SEMENYA: Maybe if you can give me these things in short form I will know what you are saying.  Are you saying Sizwe Sithole had a brother whose name was Sinet?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I could say they were related, because he was staying there at his place.

MR SEMENYA: Can you repeat the answer for me please.

GIFT NTOMBENI: I could say they are related, because they were staying together and when he saw Sinet's father, he called him father, big father, or small father.

MR SEMENYA: But there is no such person called Sinet on my information, and Sizwe didn't have a cousin or a brother or anybody staying at their house called Sinet?  Where do you get this from?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Sinet has got his own brother by the name of Jabu and Jabu comes after Sinet.

MR SEMENYA: I want to put it to you that there is no such a person existing in the Sithole family.

GIFT NTOMBENI: I don't know whether you know the Sithole family because there is a Sinet at the Sithole place.

MR SEMENYA: Now, I was listening to you, you were describing how Tholi was shot by Sizwe, is that right?