Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes, making mention of it and doing something about it, I think are two different things.  And I am wondering as a person who is projected himself as an evenhanded person who has no racism in him, I think you mentioned this in your last testimony of the Guguletu-7, you treat people equally, you investigate equally, these were people in the township.
 People were dying, you have just made a breakthrough, as you yourself explained, breakthrough, you have finally been led to Ngxobongwana and to his people's courts and you have now made a link between the deaths of Vioani Geobase and Mr Veneni.  
 Now as someone who is truly committed to this policing idea, and policing evenhandedly, what exactly did you do to pursue the case, to find who the killers of these men were?  What did you do?

UNKNOWN: First of all, the granting of bail did not stop the investigation.  The investigation continued.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What were your findings?

UNKNOWN: Well, I did not complete it.  The dockets are still on hand.  The investigation, I just looked at it cursory yesterday, is not of a good standard.
 I believe, I cannot believe why a charge of murder could not have been brought out on the evidence we had, but that must be asked of an official other than I.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But you see as the person who was investigating it, I just need to establish how seriously you took the intervention by these people from higher up there.  I just want to understand what your thinking was about this and how seriously you took it but now ...

UNKNOWN: I obviously took it seriously in that it was a rebuff in  no uncertain manner was it a rebuff.  It would have, I believed to help stabilise the situation, have been far better had the arrestees been kept in custody, but by granting bail it did not stop the investigation, that is the point that I am trying to make.
 Many people are granted bail, it does not stop us with our investigation.  To any policeman one of the worst things that can happen, we might be wrong, but Detectives have a problem in the accused being let out on bail.
 We traditionally fight bail, we obviously are often ad odds with a more liberal approach.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: This was a unique case in the sense that immediately after the bail was granted, charges were dropped, weren't they?

UNKNOWN: No, no, no.  No, the charges were only withdrawn a year later.  I think I've given you the date, the charges were withdrawn on the 13-05-1987.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And by that time you were already in Sea Point?

UNKNOWN: I was then in Durban.  When the charges were withdrawn, it was almost a year - eleven months.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Were you surprised?

UNKNOWN: I only became aware that the charges were withdrawn, yesterday I think.  Have you any idea Ma'am of the amount of violence that we have dealt with?
 That one cannot always remain committed to one ambit of investigation, subsequent to this in the last 11 years, I have seen so much death, that I cannot even recall all the death that I've seen.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I understand Mr Knipe, but the peculiarity of this case is that there was an intervention by Presidents, by the President or a Minister and I imagine in my mind that this would have stuck out in your mind as a unique case.
 I was just trying to follow up how your reaction to this intervention was and how you handled it with your committee and particularly within yourself?  With your members, with your colleagues and with yourself?
 How you perceived the idea of a President or Minister intervening in such a case?

UNKNOWN: I've explained to you that the intervention related to the granting of bail and I was brought - it was made known to me that there was knowledge of this court house but look Leonard Knipe, you are barking up the wrong tree, this is not a people's court, this is a tribal court.
 We investigated - we continued with our investigations, we did not stop with our investigations.  I still can remember that most, we went to some considerable time to have the court books translated because the proceedings of the court were in Xhoza, so there was a lot of investigation that followed and the investigation was still continuing when I left.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.  I am told that there are time constraints, but one last question.  Captain Du Toit, what exactly were his activities in the area?

UNKNOWN: I don't know.  It is very difficult.  I can't understand what his activities were in the area.  He was of no assistance to us at all.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: He did not feed you with information and therefor did not help you with your cases you were investigating and of course as you have stated, he seemed to support the "witdoeke"?

UNKNOWN: Well, he was always - his conversations with us were always that these people were orderly law abiding citizens.
 As I say he made no contribution to any of our investigations at all.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much.  Just a comment, while this was a breakthrough for you, the finding of the Ngxobongwana people's court, I think in a way what you've told us is also a big breakthrough because you've linked the relationship between the police and the  "witdoeke" operation very positively and we appreciate that, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Ma'am, Detectives simply tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: I am sorry if it injects laughter, but it is the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Detective Knipe, we just have one more question from Mary Burton.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  Director Knipe at point 6 in your statement you refer to the shack which contained the cells and the court room and you were one of the people who actually visited that shack as part of the investigations.

UNKNOWN: I am sorry Ma'am I couldn't hear you over the din.

MARY BURTON: The shack which contained the court room and the cells, you were one of the people who visited that, I mean you were personally at that place.

UNKNOWN: Yes, one of the people arrested with Mr Ngxobongwana, we still found there, he was a sort of policeman in charge of the shack.  That day it had two cells if I remember correctly, they were pretty secure.
 In fact they were probable more secure cells than is available at the little satellite police station in Crossroads at the moment and then there was this sort of court room.  You came into the court room first, went through the court room into the cells.

MARY BURTON: We've had a number of deponents who have spoken to us about having been taken to a court room or to cells, we want to make sure we are talking about the same building, we don't know whether there were several buildings like that.
 Could you help us to pinpoint it at all?

UNKNOWN: As I understand it, and subsequently after the arrest of Johnson when a bit of controversy arose, it transpired that many of the serving policemen at Guguletu were aware of this structure.
 I had not, you know it was the first time that I went there and these ladies took us there.  That is why it was still in the early morning hours that they went to go and point it out to us.
 But this was what was commonly referred to as the sort of Johnson's police station.

MARY BURTON: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa Ntsebeza?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Madam Chair.  Director Knipe, it only remains for me to say we are very thankful for you having volunteered to come.
 The Commission appreciates that gesture from you.  It seems to confirm the attitude you displayed when we met with the Guguletu-7 that we shouldn't have subpoenaed you, you would have come on your own.

UNKNOWN: You made a mistake sir.