Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you understood the ambit of my question.  My question is simply the following.  Was there any criteria or criterion that was used and conveyed to you by your commander about when you could use your discretion, to use funds that you had repossessed for your own sustenance and when you could hand over any sums collected by your repossession unit to Msiki.  Was there such a criteria or what, as such a criteria that was communicated to you by your commander?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct, if the amount was small there was no reason for us to take that money to Botswana so we had to use that amount for the benefit of the unit but if it was quite a large sum of money we had to take it to Botswana.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he specify what he meant by a small amount that you could use at your discretion without having to take it to Botswana?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I don't remember him explaining so much detail.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Prior?

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in please Mr Prior?  May I just follow up on this here?
	What did you regard as a small amount or as a large amount?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: A small amount would be an amount which would only cater for transport and I won't be left with an amount to submit but a large amount would be an amount I can take money for transport and provision and be able to be left with a sum that I could submit.

ADV BOSMAN: Well what amount approximately would cover the transport to Botswana?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: According to me I think from R500 upwards was the money I could take to Botswana and from R500 downwards was the money that I could use for the unit.

ADV BOSMAN: But surely these small amounts must have accumulated, did you take the accumulated funds into consideration?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes, if we kept these amounts, these amounts would have amounted to quite a large sum of money but there was absolutely no time for us to be keeping the money, we used the money for the unit as we received it.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Can you just tell me, if you say you used the money for the unit, for what purposes, to what end?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: One, for the training, to be able to move from point A to point B, for food and accommodation, at times we also had to buy arms and ammunition.

MR MALAN: What training are you talking about, how do you train people to move from point A to point B, if I heard you correctly?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: When I say moving from point A to point B, I do not mix that with training, I said that firstly to train people, to train new recruits.

MR MALAN: To train new recruits to do what?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: As our major functions were to repossess, you train people to repossess and when the unit expands, the new recruits ought to be orientated and trained with regard to the operations that we were going to carry out.

MR MALAN: But how did you use money to train them, because you answer was that the money was used for training.  Now if you take another person and train him in one of these operations, I assume that's how you trained such a person, what monies do you expend in the training?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: When we train people some move from other places, for instance Pietersburg, to come to the point of training or where the training is being conducted and when they arrive there they do not have money so we use the money for subsistence, for travelling expenses and for ferrying the trainees from a certain point to a certain point.

MR MALAN: Who kept the money, who was your treasurer?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Lamumba was our treasurer because he was quite trustworthy, I trusted him fully.

MR MALAN: Did he report?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes he did report to me, I'm the one who gave the money to him and delegated him to handle the financial affairs of the unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior you may proceed.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry.  During 1990, if the figures that you give in your amnesty application on pages 3 onwards, comes to approximately R40550,00 in 1990 and in 1991 it was R532000 odd thousand rand that you and your unit had obtained.  Would those sort of - well let's deal with 1990 first.  R40 odd thousand, R40550,00 would that accord with your recollection of how much money you obtained in the operations during that period?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is very difficult for me to say because as we received the money we used it for the unit or took it to Gabarone.

ADV PRIOR: Alright, then I must then pursue my line, if I refer you to page 6.  The R3000 taken from the Motlakeng Police office, did that go to Botswana or did that remain with the unit?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: It was taken to Botswana but not all the sum total, that is the R3200, I used some for my travelling expenses to Botswana then the remainder was submitted.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Maseko, I'm just trying to understand how your unit operated.  Now in the Elsburg Westonaria Cafe matter, the present application matter, there was R6000 in cash which you said was too little to take to Botswana and your unit used it up for travelling and accommodation and what have you.  Madam Chair has asked you what is the criteria employed by your unit or your high command as to what amount should go back to them and what amount should remain with yourself.  Are you able to give us some clarity on that please?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes I did say that according to me an amount from R500 upwards could be taken to Botswana but that also would depend on our financial status as the unit.  If we could get a gun and money was available, we would actually buy a gun or use that money to buy a gun.  We worked according to need, whether we needed to take the money to Botswana or we needed ammunition first.

ADV PRIOR: So in the case of the present matter where R6000 was obtained, none of that went to Botswana?  If I understood your evidence here today, you said the amount was too small or are you saying you used the money up for your own purposes and then there was nothing left over to send to Botswana?  Just please try and assist us understand what you're trying to say?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: The money that you've just referred to, the R6000, was not taken to Gabarone because at that time we did not have money and we actually had to use the money for the unit.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry.  Item 18 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, may I with your permission interpose again so that we don't lose the sense of this important issue?
	Mr Maseko, I think what Mr Prior wants to find out from you is the following.  Did you have any guideline on when an amount would be taken to Botswana to Msiki and when it would not be taken to Botswana to Msiki and could be used for your sustenance, whether it be training, transportation, purchasing of weaponry.  Was there such a guideline?  It is important for us to know.

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes there were some guidelines.

CHAIRPERSON: Again at the risk of repeating ourselves, can you spell if you can, the guidelines that you were given?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: The guidelines stipulated that if the money was a substantial amount it would be taken to Botswana but even if that amount was substantial but there was a need for money, then we would just report the money but not submit it and use it for the unit.

CHAIRPERSON: In that case did you have to speak to Msiki in Botswana to advise him of the repossession that you had effected and seek his permission to retain the money and to use it for the need that had arisen?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct.  I always reported to Msiki after each and every operation, explain to him as to how the operation went, how much we got and whether we are in financial need then he would give us permission to use the money.