Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I do not remember anybody sleeping there.

MR VISSER: Yes.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: It is a bit hard on the cement there.

MR VISSER: Do you think that you might have remembered it if there had been somebody sleeping there?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: If there had been, I would have.

MR VISSER: Given the circumstances of what was going on there?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: If there had been people there, I think I should have remembered it.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Visser, just in case you may be giving the wrong impression to the witness, it is not being suggested that Mr Mbane was sleeping there during the interrogation at all.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with great respect, that is exactly what was put because he says the door was opened, he saw inside and he saw an assault going on.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said that he slept that night in the verandah, I think we agreed to call it the verandah.

MR LAX: The point I am making with the greatest of respect is that there has been no suggestion at the time the interrogation was taking place, he was sleeping there?  He was in the vicinity, but it is not that he was actually sleeping?

MR VISSER: Oh, I see it is a question of the sleeping?

MR LAX: Precisely.

MR VISSER: All right, I stand corrected Mr Chairman.    Let us confine ourselves then to sleeping there at any stage on the evening, that evening when Ms Khubeka was being interrogated there, on that evening, and I am not thereby suggesting as Mr Lax has corrected me, to say that it was while the interrogation was going on, but at any stage during that evening, while you went in there to go and find out whether information had been obtained from Ms Khubeka, did you see anybody sleeping on that what we refer to as the verandah?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Incidentally, did you obtain that evening or subsequent to the death of Ms Khubeka, any information regarding the four MK members that this whole operation was about, that might have been obtained from her?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.  As a result of this incident, the Intelligence operation regarding, or our involvement in the Intelligence operation was terminated a day or two afterwards.

MR VISSER: Yes.   Yes.  At page 155 of Volume 2 of the Bundles, in the last sentence on that page you say
"... in this instance the team fell under the command of Capt H. Botha and Gen Steyn of Durban."
	I noticed that you don't mention the name of Col Andy Taylor there, is there a specific reason for that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, Capt Botha was in charge of Intelligence Units, the MK Intelligence Unit.   This operation was basically his, but the overall deployment of the greater team if I can call it as such, actually fell under Col Taylor.  I had been there to find out about the deployment of the greater team.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is how I understand it, all right.  At page 156, can I just clarify this with you, it appears that you agree with the evidence of the previous witnesses that the purpose of the operation was to get that four MK members that had infiltrated into the Republic of South Africa, page 156 Mr Chairman, it is about one third down the page.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, or who were to infiltrate, I am not putting too fine a point on that, but it had to do with four terrorists?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And then later on in the same paragraph, you seem to suggest that the intention was that Ms Khubeka was to be apprehended and you say
"... the askari, and you are referring to Jimmy Mbane, still pretending to be an MK member, met with her and she was apprehended."
	Did you intend with those words to say that that was the purpose of the operation on that day, that she was to be arrested?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as told to me by Capt Botha after she had been apprehended, he said that Mbane had met her and she had been apprehended.  I don't know if that was the intention of the operation.

MR VISSER: Yes, the question I was going to ask you was simply this, did you know what the instructions of Mbane was as to what he had to do on that particular day?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Would it fit in with your understanding of the situation at the time, if I put to you that Botha had informed him or had instructed him to attempt to bring at least the Commander of the MK Units, to a particular place at Battery Beach, would that coincide with your understanding of the whole operation?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You also told the Committee that you went in and out and at a certain point in time, you saw a person in the room where Ms Khubeka was being questioned, with a plastic object.

CHAIRPERSON: I think a black object he said.

MR LAX: A black plastic object.

MR VISSER: A black plastic object in his hand, was this a round object, a square object, elongated object, what did you think it was?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection was that it looked like a piece of black hose-pipe, in other words round.

MR VISSER: Yes, and was the person that you saw, was he doing anything with it?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, when I opened the door, people in the room would look at me.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there is a first for everybody, I do really apologise  I am terribly sorry Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it happens to all of us, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: It even happened to Constitution Justice Kriegler, so I am in good company Mr Chairman.  I have now lost my train of thought.

CHAIRPERSON: We are talking about, Mr Baker said it looked like a piece of black hose-pipe to him.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.   And you were telling us what you saw, whether you saw this person do anything with that piece of black what appeared to you like hose-pipe?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, what would happen, when I opened the door, the people in the room would look up at who was coming in obviously.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And would they then stop with whatever they were doing?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, they would stop and look at me, and as I said I would just ask is anything positive and negative and I walked out.  This happened a couple of times.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Twice.

MR VISSER: Yes.   What I want to ask you is, can you recall who the person was that you saw with this black object in his hand?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You cannot recall?   Mr Joe Coetzer, what is your recollection of him being present or not at any time during that late afternoon, early evening?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection is that Joe Coetzer was at the base.

MR VISSER: He was there?   You also stated at page 156, the second paragraph on that page
"... during the questioning of Capt Botha, I went in and out to establish whether there was any information on the four MK cadres."
	Now, you heard the evidence of Botha and of Wasserman and van der Westhuizen in this regard, how certain are you that Capt Botha was the person who questioned her?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I do not know who was questioning her, I would ask Capt Botha if there was any positive information.

MR VISSER: What you are really, the point you are really making here is that Botha was reporting to you whether something was coming out or not?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Not primarily that he was the one questioning?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Nel, do you have any questions that you would like to ask the witness?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Baker, do you know Spyker Myeza?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I do Mr Chairman.