Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR MAPOMA: During May up till June 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: From March 1992?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, up to ...

MR MAPOMA: Actually Chairperson, he was detained two times, first in March and thereafter released, but the most important one is May where he was detained in May and then released only on the 27th of June 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: When was he detained in May, on the 27th of May?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, on the 27th of May.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and then he remained according to the cell register, in custody until the 27th of June?

MR MAPOMA: 27th of June.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, shall I record that fact.

MR MAPOMA: One other aspect which may not be that important is that on the 18th of June, he was taken out of prison to court, and then returned on that very same day, on the 18th of June.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I am just concerned that these loose documents may well get lost.  Perhaps they should constitute some kind of a bundle, which we can then give the next alphabet and then - so that if there is any reference to them, we can know what documents you are referring to.  Okay, but anyway, shall I record what you have just ...   The first document that you are handing in, is a cell register, relating to Vanderbijlpark Police station?

MR MAPOMA: Pardon sir, sorry, I didn't get your words.

CHAIRPERSON: The first document you are handing in, is the cell register which relates to the Vanderbijlpark Police station?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Should we give this a separate exhibit perhaps?   The last exhibit was V wasn't it?  The last alphabet is Z, isn't it, so after Z, there will be no more exhibits.  No more exhibits after that.  Okay, the cell register, will then be marked Exhibit W.   I am simply going to record that it shows that Victor Keswa was last detained as from what - is it the 5th?

MR MAPOMA: The 27th of May.

CHAIRPERSON: From the 27th of May 1992 and remained in custody on 27th of June 1992.

MR MAPOMA: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: On 18-6-1992 he appeared in court, he was taken to court, right?  What is your next document?

MR MAPOMA: The next document is the occurrence book.

MR BERGER: I am sorry Chairperson, just before Mr Mapoma puts in another exhibit, are you recording that what these cell registers establishes as a fact, that Victor ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I am recording what appears on the face of the document, that is all that I am recording.

MR BERGER: Because there seems, just by glancing through it, there seems to be problems with sequencing.

CHAIRPERSON: With what?

MR BERGER: Sequencing for example.  If one has a look at the...

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the original?

MR MAPOMA: We do have the original Chairperson, I will make it available.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, if there are certain problems that Mr Berger would like to highlight, have you had sight of the original?

MR BERGER: No, I haven't.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it not be better that you make the original available to all the legal representatives and once you have done that, and let's see whether there is any agreement as to what appears on its face.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, all right.  I will leave this as it stands for the moment, but it can always be expanded on or dealt with subject to what you are going to advise us after you had gone through the record, the original.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, so the next document would be the occurrence book, is it?

MR MAPOMA: The occurrence book, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, shall we mark that X, all right.  I am not going to record, is there any issue for this one?  You haven't seen the original either, okay fine.  Shall we - I wonder whether in view of the fact that they haven't seen the original so as to see whether there are any problems with this document, shouldn't we hold onto admitting these documents?  We can give them numbers.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.   So the next one is OC book, X, right, and then the third document?

MR MAPOMA: It is a visitors' register, prison.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Mapoma, it is not a register, it is an application to visit.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a permit.  It is not an application for a visit, it is a permit.

MR LAX: Yes.  This is the permit you fill in when you visit a prisoner, not the actual register you sign in the prison.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Mr Chairman.  But the substance of it Chair, is to show that somebody did appear to visit a prisoner on that particular day.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I will simply record this as being a permit for a legal visit to the prison.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be Exhibit Y, is it?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, would you therefore make available the original to these documents and then advise us Monday what the situation is.

MR MAPOMA: As Chairperson pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, thank you.  Is that all?

MR MAPOMA: That is all Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (still under oath)

MR STRYDOM: (continued)  Mr Chairman, after dealing with the documents, I have also got a document and seeing that there is only one exhibit number, I want to grab at that opportunity to hand it in.  I've got the original with me as well, that is minutes of the Ulundi conference held on the 18th of July 1992 and the 19th of July 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR STRYDOM: We have made copies, can I just ask to hand out the copies.  The original will be available for insight, I will keep it with me.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you are handing in?

MR STRYDOM: The minutes of the National Conference of the Inkatha Freedom Party, held at Ulundi on the 18th and 19th of July 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Have the other legal representatives seen that?

MR STRYDOM: No.  We have made copies, I only received this document yesterday afternoon, so we made copies, it is available now.  Will it be convenient to distribute them now, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: All right, yes, now these documents, these are the minutes of the Inkatha Freedom Party is it the 17th Annual General Conference, held between the 17th and the 19th of July 1992?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct Chairperson, that is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  The second document, is this a continuation of ...

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, yes, that is also part of the minutes.  It starts on the 19-7-1992, but on page it looks like 6, there is an indicated that these minutes, it happened on the 18-7-1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we've got the 18th, all of them are recorded on the 18th, aren't they, and then the second part relates to the 19th?

MR STRYDOM: The 19th, but there is also a portion that relates to the 18th, the second part of the second document.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, is that VI?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the last Exhibit that you had submitted?

MR STRYDOM: The last number that was given, was Y.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean that the applicant had handed in, can you still recall?  Was it U?

MR STRYDOM: Was it U, Nosenga's docket.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well, I suppose let's just give them, we will give the first one which has a heading of "The Conference", Z.  Shall we say Z1 and Z2?  How does one refer to the pages now of the conference?  Shouldn't we just number them from Z1 all the way through to the end?

MR STRYDOM: I will accept that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we just call them Z and then you can call it Z1 and all the way through?

MR MAPOMA: Very well.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, could these documents be admitted as purported minutes and the reason that I say that is because you will see from Exhibit T ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am aware of Exhibit T, the response to the request for these things.

MR BERGER: And the Inkatha Freedom Party said they have no minutes, so we don't accept these at all.  If I may just add, I have asked my learned friend if we could have sight of the originals of those documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Finally ...