Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, 11 o'clock that morning Mr Makwara tells you that he wants to recruit you to go and attack a white farm.  He also tells you he will provide the date and the place where this attack will take place, but after 11 o'clock you do not see him again, so he hasn't told you where Mr Odendaal will be on Katdoring farm.  Now you want to justify yourself by saying that Mr Makwara gave you the instruction to go and attack this specific persons.  Where did you get your instructions from?

BONGANI KHUMALO: You did not understand me well when I put my case.  I mentioned that he said, because there are many farms and he said I will choose which one I prefer so that I can be able to carry forward this operation.  We did not just meet and disperse without discussing anything.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, I put it to you and in your evidence-in-chief you said that Mr Makwara will choose the date and the place of the attack and not you.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's not correct.  It says the applicant ...(indistinct - interference with mike and then not talking into mike) evidence yesterday, you are mistaken there Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: In that case I apologise.  Mr Khumalo, what was the specific wording of that instruction?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He told me on that day, he said he wants me to go and perform a function where he would send me and he told me that I will go to any farm where I would be in a position to execute his order and he said I would choose a day myself to go.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't he ask you whether you knew the Reitz area?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He did ask me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, whether he knew the Reitz area.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, he asked me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So did he direct you to go to Reitz, in the vicinity of Reitz?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, because we were talking about those farms.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you couldn't choose a farm at Bethlehem, for instance?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It was quite far than Reitz.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is could you choose a farm in Bethlehem?  Did you have a discretion, in other words?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I don't understand you, Gentlemen.

CHAIRPERSON: When you spoke to Makwara, you just said to my brother here that you spoke about the Reitz area.  Now the question is, because you had to choose the farm, could you have chosen a farm in Bethlehem, other than what Makwara was saying to you?  Could you choose a farm anywhere else other than the area mentioned, or the area you were speaking about when you were discussing about these attacks?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It would depend on our discussion Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had no discretion where to go, but to go to Reitz?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir, that is the place that was under discussion.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer, you may proceed.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, did you have to reconnoitre the farm at first?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I'd never been to that place, but I just knew it by passing.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, did you go and identify the place?

BONGANI KHUMALO: On the 24th when I was already there.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, you only took one day and the next day you attacked?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: The order from Mr Makwara, what did the order entail?  What were you supposed to go and do at the farm?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He said I should go and kill the boers.

MR COETZER: Just kill them?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He said I should kill the boers and take anything that would be of benefit.

MR COETZER: Were you supposed to murder anybody specific?

BONGANI KHUMALO: There was nobody specific that I should go and kill, it was just a command.

MR COETZER: Then why did you select this specific person?

BONGANI KHUMALO: This was a vulnerable place to get in to fulfil the command.

MR COETZER: When did you discover this, that it was a vulnerable place?

BONGANI KHUMALO: What is your question, Sir?

MR COETZER: When did you discover that it was a vulnerable place?

BONGANI KHUMALO: When I met with Jabulani Tshabalala, because he is the person who provided me with information.

MR COETZER: What information did he provide to you and at what time?

BONGANI KHUMALO: On the same day, the 24th and he knew the set-up on that house and he knew how many people lived there.

MR COETZER: Where did you meet Mr Tshabalala?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I met with him at that farm in Reitz.

MR COETZER: So you went to the farm of Mr Odendaal beforehand specifically?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, that is after I had received information.

MR COETZER: After you received what information?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I knew that the owner was alone.  I knew which days the sons were visiting.  I knew that he was indoors at which times.  I knew how many safes were in the house.  All those things Tshabalala explained to me.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why did you tell Tshabalala that you wanted to know when the sons would be visiting, how many safes there would be, did you give him any reason for wanting this information?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He did not ask.  I did not make him aware as to what I was going to do.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long had you known Tshabalala when you met with him on the 24th?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I knew him on the same day, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the same day he volunteered all this information?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, I arrived during the day and in the evening we were sitting around a fire and we were chatting and I asked questions and he managed to answer some of those - to answer those questions.  He is the person who referred me to a place where I would be given accommodation.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you referred to to get accommodation?

BONGANI KHUMALO: At Anna Magwa's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does she live?

BONGANI KHUMALO: On that same farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why do you now call it her place because it's not her farm?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It's true, that's not her farm, but the house that she lived in was her home, not the farm, it was on the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Even with Anna Magwa, you knew her on the 24th?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer, you may proceed.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just in conjunction with that, Anna allowed you to stay at the house that evening?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you and Anna didn't have any problems?

BONGANI KHUMALO: No problems at all Sir, on that day.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Is there any reason why Anna would have lied in Court regarding what took place?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I believe there is a reason Sir.  She was one of the State witnesses, there were witnesses of the State.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You recall that Anna said that you arrived there before the time, that you stayed there 2 to 3 days before the time, that you departed and that you then returned?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, many times when people turn State witnesses they say something, their own concoction of the story.  I would not say where she got that story from.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What did you do after you stabbed Mr Odendaal with a knife?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Petrus went back, he went and stood by the gate next to the fence.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't you take him by the arm and take him back to the house?

BONGANI KHUMALO: No, that is not so.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Weren't you afraid, knowing that he had seen everything that took place, weren't you afraid that he would go and call for help?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I don't understand.  Who would have gone to call other people?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Petrus.  He saw how the man was being stabbed to death and you left him there outside, he could have run off and told others what had just taken place.

BONGANI KHUMALO: He was scared and he just stood there and I called him.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And where did you call him to?