Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

UNKNOWN: It does have relevance.  Mr Chairman it's indeed relevant to look into the background of this man.  I don't need to know exactly where he comes from but what I want to know - the area where he grew up in, whether that is a predominant IFP area or ANC area and it's got direct bearing on this application.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask him whether the area he came from.

UNKNOWN: As soon as you allow me to do so, I will continue.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry, Ms van Huysteen, how the fact that a person comes from a particular stronghold have any bearing to the applications that we are dealing with?  I'm not clear how that would impinge on these proceedings.

UNKNOWN: It's got to show the attitude that this particular applicant had towards people opposing him and that's why it is relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: He told you he's a member of the ANC?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I would have imagined that a member of the ANC would definitely probably not be a person who will be well received amongst IFP persons?

UNKNOWN: With all respect, that is a question for the specific applicant to answer.

CHAIRPERSON: He has told you he is a member of the ANC what more do you want?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I want to know whether he had clashes with IFP members in the area where he came from.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether he personally had clashes?

UNKNOWN: That is indeed so, I'm trying to put that question to him through you.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Zuma, from the area that you came from did you have clashes with IFP members or supporters?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Obviously.  IFP and ANC members would clash from time to time and I have been a member of the ANC and there were clashes in the area.

UNKNOWN: How did you perceive the IFP and it's members, did you perceive them as being your political enemy?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Political rival not enemy.

UNKNOWN: I want to refer you to your application, your actual application for amnesty on page 33 thereof.  Do you have that in front of you?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes I do.

UNKNOWN: Specifically to the part where you say that and I quote
"The history of the country, the sequence of political events will show that whenever IFP mobs come across ANC property or member they (referring IFP) would attack and destroy.  This was exactly what was to transpire on that fateful day."
Can you tell me to what are you referring here?  Which instances - are you referring to IFP mobs would destruct ANC property or members?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I am referring to what I saw in Dube and what happened on the same day in Soweto and in the East Rand.  You see on that day people were killed by these marchers or some of the IFP people in the stations and at other places, various people died and there are various instances if you maybe read newspapers and follow the political events, there are various instances where you had clashes when there are IFP marches.

UNKNOWN: And then further on in your application you state that "they (IFP) had leaders amongst them."  Who are these leaders that you are referring to?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I am referring to Indunas.

UNKNOWN: Aren't the Indunas, as you testified earlier, part of the not necessarily the IFP?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: You have Indunas who are also ANC members.

UNKNOWN: You further say in your statement or this specific application that "so their coming to Shell House was not a mistake but the political decision to make a political point."  What political point would these people, according to your view, be making?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: If you can read Judge Nugent's finding you will find that he agrees with me on this aspect.  He says they wanted to make a political point, a show of strength of some sort, if you can read Judge Nugents findings.

UNKNOWN: I'm not asking you what Judge Nugent found, I'm asking you what are you referring to?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well I think they wanted to show the amount of force they have.

UNKNOWN: Mr Zuma, I want to put it to you that the - on the instructions from the objectors that I represent, they never attacked you, they never formed part of any attack and that it in fact never took place and the only reason that you shot on them was because they belonged to an opposing political party and you didn't like the so called strength of force or force of strength that you're referring to?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: So do you agree now that they belong to the IFP?

UNKNOWN: I'm talking about the objectors that I represent.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Ja, but you are saying to me they belong to the political party.

CHAIRPERSON: Generally speaking I mean -...[inaudible] were not members of the IFP.

UNKNOWN: The objectors that I represent on that day attended because they were called as stated by Mr Pretorius to an Imbizu on behalf of the King.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and that they were not members of the IFP.

UNKNOWN: That doesn't have any relevance.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no - it does have a relevance, surely you must know whether they were members of the IFP in support of the IFP or not?

UNKNOWN: Not necessarily.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the best you can do?

UNKNOWN: That is indeed so.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN HUYSTEEN

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: There's just a point I'd like to clarify Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Zuma, when Mr Kruser testified yesterday in response to a question as to why he felt the crowd was different, amongst other points that he raised was he said that the crowd had moved slowly and consistently.  He also said that this crowd was drumming up a type of dance.

CHAIRPERSON: What's that?

MS PATEL: Drumming up a type of dance, war dance - and you had informed him what the nature of this dance was, that it was indeed a war dance.  Now in your evidence today you didn't make mention of any explanation having been given by yourself to Mr Kruser.  Could you please explain?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes that is correct.  As far as I recollect the incident that day, it is the way I explained this morning.

MS PATEL: Are you saying then that you gave no explanation to Mr Kruser on this point?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I remember at a later stage he asked me what were they saying because I know Zulu so I will tell him from time to time but not in that instance just before the shooting - I don't recall it that way.  He might recall it that way.

MS PATEL: Are you saying that the later stage was after the incident had occurred, after the shooting had occurred?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tipp any further questions?

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no re-examination. May I just for the record, there's been reference to
correspondence concerning post mortem reports.  We don't propose to burden the Committee with further correspondence of collateral sort, but there was a letter from the Attorney General which stated that post mortem reports were included, they had in fact omitted to do so.  They only came into our hands at a later stage.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR TIPP

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zuma, when you observed this man with an AK47 coming out of the crowd and going back again where was Mr Kruser at the time do you know?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes he was behind me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how far behind you can you indicate?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Maybe a metre or metre and a half, I can't be precise.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Immediately before you fired the        forewarning shots were you given orders to fire at the marchers?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I was not, I did not hear the order but I understand it was given.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us forget for one moment about what you understand happened but from your recollection you did not hear those orders?