Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: All right, let us confine ourselves now to the three days when you said you were assaulted in the building at Fountain Street, do you understand that?

ADV DE JAGER: I think we should clear this up now.  I have also a difficulty now in understanding.  On the other occasions, not the Ladybrand transfer occasion when he was arrested because he left the country, on the other occasions, the many other occasions you were arrested and detained, who assaulted you on those occasions?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I don't know how to answer this question.  But I say I am not able to remember the names of all the people who took part in my torture.  But some of the people who took part in some occasions, are those appearing on the list.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, please repeat the names and tell us when they assaulted you on other occasions that you can remember them assaulting you.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, if you want me to enlist those names, that is Swanepoel, Tereblanche, Mamome, Erasmus, Tsoametsi, Motsamai, Miningwa.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, then please, can you tell me, did they assault you on every other occasion, or did some of them assault you on some occasions and others on other occasions?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said to you I don't remember because I was tortured many times.
	But many of the names I have mentioned, were present.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, that is my problem Mr Makhubalo.  You say many of the names I have mentioned, were present.  Now that implicates all of them were not present and you implicate the persons and if possible, and if it is not possible, I accept it, but you have repeated the names and you have implicated them in some of the assaults.
	But then you say many of them were present and that also includes that you exclude some of them, because you don't say all of them were present or all of them assaulted me.  And we want to know who in fact assaulted you.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am not able to mention particular names, because I am not able to remember all of them, but those I have enlisted here, I am saying in many instances they took part in the torture to inflict pain and torture me.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you understand the question.  What my colleague wants to know is simply if you could say well, on one occasion I remember it was Constable so and so.  I can't remember who else was there on that occasion.
	On another occasion it was Constable so and so.  Can't you remember any one of these people having assaulted you on a particular occasion?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I cannot recall all the instances.  I cannot recall people who took part in my torturing all the instances, but particularly to this one, I can recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Nobody is asking you about all the instances, Mr Makhubalo.  They are asking you are there any separate instance that you remember.  I think that is what Mr Visser wants.

MR NTSEBEZA: But with all respect, if you can't remember the instances because there were too many, I cannot see how you can remember certain names and attach them to a particular instance if in the first instance, you can't recall an instance.  I think that we are just, you know, wasting a lot of time, because the witness just cannot remember the occasions.

MR VISSER: I was just going to suggest Mr Chairman, I will  make submissions in argument about this evidence of this morning.  I will step off it.
	Can I now please confine your attention to the incident where you and 18 other people were arrested by the South African Defence Force, taken to Ladybrand and brought to Bloemfontein on one morning, between ten and eleven o'clock?  You know what I am talking about now?	Just that one incident.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, I do.   I know that incident very well.

MR VISSER: On the Monday, I am sorry, on the first day was Mr Ngo present, did you see him there in the building?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, he was present.

MR VISSER: Did he do anything to you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He was one of those people who took part in the torture or assault.

MR VISSER: Was this in Tereblanche's office?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What did he do, Ngo?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He tortured me, he assaulted me.

MR VISSER: Please Mr Makhubalo, what did he do to you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was assaulted in that office.  For me to remember that one was pushing a finger to me or doing this to me, but what I can say is that he took part in my assault.

MR VISSER: All right, let's turn to Mr Motsamai.  You heard his evidence here when he gave evidence, when he explained how you were placed on a chair and your hands, he said, tied behind your back.  Do you remember that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I remember that, sir.

MR VISSER: And how you were then suffocated.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you also remember why he said that was done?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Can you repeat your questions?

MR VISSER: Well, let me put it to you, he said that was done because they, referring to himself and Mr Mamome , wanted to know about you having skipped the country to receive MK training.  Did you hear him saying that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I heard him, sir.

MR VISSER: Is that the truth?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You are certain that the torture which we referred to just now, wasn't for the purpose of recruiting you as an informant?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: In Mamome's office, that is where I was recruited.

MR VISSER: Are you saying now that there were two reasons why you were tortured?  One because you were being recruited and secondly because they wanted to know about you skipping the country?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Wasn't there also a reason that you had to confess to your activities in MICO and in COSAS?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: To make it absolutely clear, there were therefore according to your evidence, three reasons why you were tortured in Mamome's office, suffocated with a tube?  Is that your evidence?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Why didn't you tell the Committee that yesterday when you gave your evidence?  Why didn't you say to the Committee look I was tortured by suffocation with a tube and the reason why that was done was for these three reasons I was told.
	Because I put it to you that is not your evidence.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: If you are asked a question, you just give a relevant answer.  Then if I may be given an opportunity to explain after answering a question, that could have helped, or that would help to give you a detailed information.

MR VISSER: All right.  Let's run through your evidence please.    Mr Makhubalo, with your assistance, let's try to do this quickly.  Mr Mamome tells me that you were in fact arrested by him.  He also thinks it was in 1986.
	And he will, when his turn comes to give evidence, he will give the following evidence and please, I will give you an opportunity to react every time I tell you what he is going to say.
	He will say that he himself, that is Mamome, Mr Motsamai, Ramoseou, Morakile, Mtyala and Lesale went in a kombi to go and arrest you.  First of all, can you agree or disagree that those were the people who were present when you were arrested?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, we would  like some clarity  on when this occasion would have been.

MR VISSER: I am referring to your evidence Mr Makhubalo, the first item which you started giving evidence about when you said in 1986 you were arrested, early in 1986, when you went to visit your friend Monakule Mtabo, do you know what I am talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: This was the occasion wasn't it, when he said he was shot at and ran away and was then arrested.  Do you remember that occasion?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: My question is, can you dispute the names I have given you as the people who went to go and arrest you?