Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, I omitted to ask one question because I put a tick in the wrong place, it will take literally two seconds, if I may.

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr van Zyl, when you took a decision, you were asked questions earlier about the packages that you were receiving by joining the CCB, when you decided to join the CCB from the Police Force, at that point when you made the decision, were you aware of the full nature and extent of the work that you would have to do for the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No Chairperson.   I was not, I did not know what it entailed, and I can also add that Staal Burger at that stage, did also not know.  Our activities and functions and methods were only spelt out to us during a course early in 1989, I think it was in January.

MR MARTINI: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.   Mr van Zyl, the first aspect I want you to just clarify for me, was your, and it is convenient that Mr Martini has asked you this question now, at the time you were joining the CCB, you had actually been transferred to Pietermaritzburg?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR LAX: To Murder and Robbery there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR LAX: Was that some sort of promotion?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I would have been second in command at that specific unit, therefore in some sense it is a possible promotion, and on the other hand I was dissatisfied, because I had to leave Brixton, because I regarded it as the elite unit of the SAP in the country and I worked hard to end up there at the end of the day.
	Therefore I had mixed feelings about it.

MR LAX: But in the normal course of police, of a policeman's career, you get moved around quite a lot?  It is quite normal to be promoted and moved to another station?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, my transferral to Murder and Robbery, Pietermaritzburg, there was no rank promotion involved, and there would have been no increase in salary.  Therefore it was just a transferral.

MR LAX: But there was an increase in status to being second in command of the unit?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, it is a small branch, but I accept that, I don't have a problem with accepting that.

MR LAX: The fact is, you didn't want to go, you wanted to stay in the Transvaal as it was then?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would have liked to remain at Brixton, but what I did then was that I actually in principle accepted or agreed, to accept my transfer, when I was approached by Staal for an interview, or to attend an interview with Joe Verster, and it was only after that interview, because I only met him there, that I decided in the light of the circumstances, at Brixton, that I would change my career.

MR LAX: I want to just turn to your understanding of the indemnification you thought you were being offered, or that would apply to you, let's put it on that basis, during your course.
	Was it explained to you what the terms of the Defence Act were in relation to such indemnities?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not that I can recall.

MR LAX: So you weren't told that this was an indemnity similar to that that pertains in the Defence Act, and that if you were carrying out these kinds of activities, you would be covered by that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, as I understood it Chairperson, was that if we complied with these instructions, and those instructions boiled down to offences, we would receive indemnity for those offences or acts.  I myself, no Acts were put to us and with my legal knowledge at that stage, I also myself did not know how it worked.
	As it has been put here, one cannot legalise an offence, but I also felt and thought that in terms of the necessary structure, that the protection would be provided for us.

MR LAX: Okay.   Did you ever confirm that Mr Omar had actually had a heart attack?  You personally?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, other than the information that I received from Ferdi and Gordon, I did not personally confirm it.

MR LAX: So Ferdi also told you that he had had a heart attack?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: And just while we are on that, would it be correct to say that you didn't personally verify any information that you got from any of these operatives, you simply went through the intelligence channels and came back to you, you didn't go and check out the Athlone Centre?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I did not.   It is entirely correct.

MR LAX: So you accepted everything that you got from all these people, basically?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR LAX: In spite of all your misgivings, at different stages, about some of them?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is indeed so.

MR LAX: It is your evidence that you were merely helping out with Maree's project, this Gavin Evans story?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: At no stage were you aware that it was being taken away from him?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I was not.

MR LAX: Why then did you report the outcome of his project, it was unusual?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't think so Chairperson.   I think I received an instruction as I have already given evidence, and after the completion of that process, I reported to the Regional Manager that the project could not be executed.  Therefore, I do not think it was unnatural.

MR LAX: You see, one might expect that if this was Maree's project, and you were simply called in there to provide some logistical support, which is what your version is, that you would liaise with Maree and say "look, we seem to be getting nowhere, you better make a proper report on that"?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I hear your argument, but I did not do it, I reported it directly to Staal.

MR LAX: Now, with regard to the Early Learning Centre, we dealt with this yesterday and I just want to clarify something.  Your secondary purpose was to try and ensure that the police thought that the victims were in fact the perpetrators of that bomb, that they blew themselves up?  In other words that it was their own bomb?

CHAIRPERSON: It was their own bomb?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct yes, that is so, but not to blow themselves up.

MR LAX: Yes, no, no. That the bomb went off by accident at a time when nobody would be injured?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: But that it would point directly to them?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR LAX: In line with what you knew to be, or you understood to be their previous activities and future activities?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR LAX: And the object of that was to prevent the future activities?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR LAX: It must have been, because you were told explicitly that if another bomb went off in that area, you would be held personally liable?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR LAX: What steps did you take to make sure that everything pointed in the direction of those people?

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Commissioner, what is everything point in the direction?

MR LAX: In other words what steps did you take to assist the police to come to that conclusion, that they were responsible for the limpet mine, that they were responsible for all these other limpet mines and that their future activities would be prevented?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Other than what I have testified, I did not do anything else.  I also said that we did not have contact with the police afterwards, or I did not.  Whether somebody else in the organisation did have contact, probably the intelligence wing, I cannot say.

MR LAX: Anybody could have phoned the police station and said "that limpet mine, this is an anonymous call", phone the Crime Stop number?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I concede Chairperson, I didn't do it, I didn't regard it as part of my function, I just did not do it.  If it was possibly done by anyone else, I cannot say.

MR LAX: This was your project?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: And that aspect was part of your objective?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.