Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a man called Mr Makalane who was Chairman of the ANC at the time?

DITINI THYIDO: I am not sure, what do you mean, where?

CHAIRPERSON: Have you heard of a man called Mr Makalane, or Makalene?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, I know him sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he Chairman of the ANC in your area?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, sir he was once a leader in our area.

CHAIRPERSON: On the 29th of August, was he involved in trying to arrange a meeting at which you wanted Mpisane to attend?

DITINI THYIDO: He was absent, but we told him.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was absent?

DITINI THYIDO: It is Mr Makalene.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are now talking about the fact that on that day there was supposed to be a meeting that had been organised of the ANC and you wanted Mr Mpisane to attend that meeting, is that correct?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.  If it was possible for us to get him, I just want to correct one thing here.  I just want to rectify something here, if it was possible to get him, we would request him if it was possible, if he was going to agree with us, we were not going to force him to come to the meeting, but if he wouldn't allow us, we were going to force him.
	We were prepared to use force.

JUDGE WILSON: So there was a meeting you wanted him to come to?

DITINI THYIDO: If it was possible to get him there, that is correct, we wanted him.

CHAIRPERSON: There was going to be a meeting, it was your intention to go there armed, to get Mpisane to come with you to that meeting on the 29th, that is the meeting of the ANC, is that right?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the purpose of that meeting of the ANC?

DITINI THYIDO: It was just a meeting, a branch meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, to discuss what?

DITINI THYIDO: We were going to talk about the protection of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: You know according to the record of the judgement, I gather that there was a meeting to be held to discuss allegations of criminal conduct levelled against you and Maliqole Mtsange.  Is that right?

DITINI THYIDO: I am not sure, but on the 29th as far as I know we had a meeting of the ANC and Bongi and the others had the meeting with the police, so I don't know which one are you referring to?  Whether our meeting with Maliqole for the ANC branch and the one of Mr Mpisane and the ISU's.

CHAIRPERSON: We are talking of the ANC meeting.  That is what we are talking about.

DITINI THYIDO: I would like you to note that even Mr Mpisane was a member of the ANC, so I am not sure which one was going to discuss the criminal activities that were taking place, so they had their own meeting and we had our own meeting.
	So it is very difficult for me to actually identify which meeting are you talking about, because of that very same date we were going to have two meetings, our meeting and their own meeting.

JUDGE WILSON: We are talking about your meeting, your ANC meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Not the meeting of the ISU, we are talking about the ANC meeting.

DITINI THYIDO: We were going to discuss about the protection of the community.  I don't know anything about the criminal acts that I was involved in that was going to be discussed there.

JUDGE WILSON: You were at your trial, weren't you?  And you heard the evidence that was led there, didn't you?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is it not true Mr Thyido, that you had been accused of burning people's cars and committing robberies in the area?

DITINI THYIDO: There were such allegations but not in that same trial.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is not allegations, the question is whether in fact you had done those things?

DITINI THYIDO: Me as an individual, I was never ever charged.  I was never found guilty of such criminal acts.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that when you approached Mr Mpisane he was outside his shop, you told him that there was going to be a meeting at two o'clock that very day.  You asked him to accompany you and that he was co-operative, and willing to attend the meeting with you that afternoon, is that correct?

DITINI THYIDO: Where did I say those things?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am also wondering why - oh accused 1 said that?  Mkhulutha, I am sorry it was Mr Mkhulutha who said that while you were present Mkhulutha spoke to Mpisane.  Was he with you?

DITINI THYIDO: I just want to know where does this come from, what is the basis of this question?

CHAIRPERSON: At or outside the shop of Mr Mpisane.

DITINI THYIDO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That Mr Mpisane was told that there was a meeting at two o'clock and you required him to attend and he appeared quite willing to attend the meeting, is that correct?

DITINI THYIDO: I don't have that knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: So as far as you are concerned, the three of you pitched up there, heavily armed, anybody could see that you were armed, you approach Mpisane, you ask him as to when and where the meeting is going to be held, so the purpose of your going there was to find out when the ISU were going to hold the meeting, is that correct?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me surprise you to know that the evidence you are giving, seems to be very, very different from what was said in your trial.

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.  During the trial we were discussing because we were being accused by the people who were our enemies, meaning the side of the policemen and Mpisane.

CHAIRPERSON: You were accused because Mpisane had been shot and a child had been killed, that is why you had been accused.

DITINI THYIDO: I am trying to say that during the trial we were actually giving evidence because we wanted to protect some of the things, we didn't tell the whole truth.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you tell the truth at all at your trial?

DITINI THYIDO: There and there I spoke truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you are doing now?

DITINI THYIDO: Now I am prepared to tell the truth, but at the moment I am still responding to the questions that are being posed at me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have questions to put to him?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes lots.  Now, there were the three of you, were there, Mkhulutha, yourself and Mtsange.  Is that correct, don't nod your head?

DITINI THYIDO: That is correct sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Now were any of you Committee members?

DITINI THYIDO: At the time I was a Committee member, but I was suspended of misbehaving.

JUDGE WILSON: So you were not a Committee member and the others weren't?  Is that so?

DITINI THYIDO: They were not Committee members in the political organisation, but the three of us were Committee members in this Unit.

JUDGE WILSON: You were members of an SDU unit, you don't have committee members, do you?  Certainly no one has ever given us evidence to that effect before.  Is that the position, you were members of the SDU and I think you said you were the leader, didn't you?
	Is that true, were you the leader of this Self Defence Unit?

DITINI THYIDO: The three of us, we were members of the commanding structure in the Self Defence Unit, but in the political organisations, in the Youth Association, I was suspended because of misbehaving.

JUDGE WILSON: Because in your application for amnesty, you said we were on the way to the meeting with one of the Committee members who was collecting money to buy firearms.
	That would be the deceased, would it, Mr Mpisane?

CHAIRPERSON: Not the deceased, he didn't die.

JUDGE WILSON: We were on the way to the meeting with one of the Committee members to collect money, he didn't die, sorry, he got shot, Mr Mpisane, is that so?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, he didn't die.

JUDGE WILSON: And you said, so you were on your way to a meeting with one of the Committee members who was collecting money to buy firearms, so you were on your way to a meeting with Mr Mpisane, that is what you said.  Correct?