Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: We were told that these people were given orders on the 12th of December 1993, to do certain things, that the revolution was on and so on and so forth.
	They then went to go and put up a road block and they told us that they wanted to stop only black people, in fact they put a car at a certain point before the road block, and that car would first have to see whether the occupants were white or black and if they are black, only if they are black, the car would be stopped.  Apparently those would be the people to be searched and certain things would happen.
	Would that have been in line with the way you understood your struggle, your war, your enemies in the way that you have told us?  Perhaps, all right, go on, I will clarify something later.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, Mr Chairperson.  I do not know exactly how Mr Oelofse gave the instruction to Kloppers, but that the instruction was there, that we were in war with the ANC and that the ANC people had to be killed, that is for sure, that is definitely true.  At that stage, it is not today the case any more, but it was the feeling Chairperson, we were convinced that if the ANC takes over the country, they were going to start killing all the white people.
	We all believed this, that did not realise.  So in other words the convictions we have today, differ in essence from those we had at that time.  I am not proud of what had happened.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, but what I want to find out from you is - as I understand the evidence, you, the AWB was dead against, not only the National Party but also dead against the ANC and the ANC/SACP alliance?  You were against, your war was against the ANC/SACP alliance?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is not altogether,  we also considered our war to be against the hierarchy of the National Party, that is true, but the ANC/SACP alliance was our enemy, we were scared that they were going to take over the country and that they would start with a witch hunt against the white people.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but the gist of my question is this people on that particular night, the applicants, they say on that particular night their targets had to be black.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sorry Mr Chairman, I am going to put on the headphones, I cannot hear you very clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.  Are you listening to Afrikaans?  I am saying to you that the applicants tell us that on that night, they only wanted or targeted black people.  How do you view that, given the way you understood the policy, the struggle of the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Chairperson, I would like to answer you honestly.  We expected a take-over from the black people in this country and we were scared of that.
	We had definitely fears of the black people, we also saw it against a black/white background, because we were brought up in such a manner.  We grew up under the apartheid dispensation, we were brought up like this in our schools, in our houses and we ascribed this to a black/white relationship, that if the black people take over the country, they then would murder all the whites and there would be a massive witch hunt on us.
	Unfortunately that was our conviction at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I must perhaps just ask you directly, did you see every black person as your enemy at that time or as your political enemy, every black person?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No Chairperson.  The IFP, we considered to be friends.  Mr Mangope and Bophuthatswana we also considered to be allies at that time and that is why Terreblanche told us that we have to be careful when we act, that we do not injure IFP or Bophuthatswana people and we should always be aware of when we act, that we do not anger these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see every black person as your enemy, even if he was not a member of the ANC, that is the gist of my question?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No Chairperson, I had very good friends who were not white, who were black, and even today I still have very good black friends.  I do not consider them to be my enemy.  No, definitely not.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it have been in line with the AWB policy as you understood it then, to kill a black person who did not belong to the ANC/SACP alliance?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume if you were to go out to kill members of the ANC/SACP alliance, you would have killed whether or not he was white?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: At that stage, if he was a white ANC, I would definitely have liked to kill him at that stage.  I would have considered him to be a priority, above a black person.

CHAIRPERSON: If you were at a road block, it seems to me that if you were to be at a road block - I am just giving an example - Joe Slovo, a very white person, came into the road block, he would have picked up problems?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, I would have killed him Chairperson, definitely.  Any person, even if he was a Boer and he got there and I knew he was an ANC person or I identified him as an ANC person, I definitely would have killed him.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kriel, you made mention thereof that the applicants would have taken part in a programme of reconciliation.  Once again, do you refer to these specific applicants?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: These specific applicants as well as applicants in other prisons, but we were visited by Dr Piet Meiring and Ruben Richards and we had discussions with them with regards to a question of Meiring, whether these people would be prepared to take part in a programme of reconciliation and they all said yes, without exception.

ADV BOSMAN: Did anything come of that which you are aware of?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I approached Dr Meiring once again and I also wrote letters to Boraine concerning this, specifically with regards to the reconciliation aspect.  I asked that it should gain some attention and I also said to them that with regards to the prisoners within the prisons, the PAC as well as the MK prisoners and the Boere prisoners, there was already a reconciliation amongst all of them.
	It is already taking place, but I said that I believed that the programme must receive a lot of attention.  It did not get any further.  Boraine gave me notice that he received my letter.

ADV BOSMAN: But I simply want to know was there any reconciliation programme in which the applicants partook?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, except for the visits of Meiring and Richards, I do not know of any, but Dr Meiring did have discussions with them.

ADV BOSMAN: I do not want us to waste time, we would like to finish today.  Can you just tell me if the applicants, did they say anything to you directly with regards to reconciliation?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, certainly they said to me that the suggestion of Piet Meiring that they must participate within a programme of reconciliation is definitely true, they also said to me that they have already reconciled with the other parties, prisoners within the prison.

ADV BOSMAN: That is surely an argument, but my question to you is that there is no evidence that these applicants showed a willingness to reconcile.  Have you got any explanation for that or can you not answer that question?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, I would just like to say that these people went through a very difficult period.  I would just like to state an example.  I told Phil Kloppers and he was converted and he addressed certain black people in prisons and he said to me that a complete change in his life had occurred, and he also said that he was going to dedicate his life to these things.

ADV BOSMAN: Let us make it clear, you have no explanation why these applicants did not show any reconciliation?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I do not know anything about that.