Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises had the contracts with the Government, the Army, Escom and the Prisons Department.  In 1988, around there, the Army said: "Okay, if you are producing so effectively dogs for us, can you not also train our dog handlers"?  So Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises also built a college to house trainees and train the dogs with their handlers.  Now that meant that the present facility of the Army at Bourkes Luck needed to be closed down because it was redundant, because Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises would take over the function, privatised.
 It so happened that it was in '88 and 1989 elections were around the corner.  I left in 1989 in January/February so in 1988 the elections were around the corner.  Some of the personnel at Bourkes Luck wouldn't have wanted to move back to Pretoria so they went to their Member of Parliament, a National MP and they tell him look: "If you close down Bourkes Luck, we have won this constituency by 40 or 30 votes, whatever, the previous round of elections, so if you close Bourkes Luck we might lose this seat in Parliament".  
 And then the National Party Government decided they cannot close Bourkes Luck, they must keep it open to win a seat in the election.  By doing so eventually the contract for training the Army's personnel was cancelled. This was told to me in the presence of Dr Swanepoel and Dr Basson by General Knobel in his office one morning. 
 So of course - but I, you've heard that I was the guilty party in losing the contracts.  Anyway, in the closing of RBE there was again a lot of contact by the RBE people to me for guidance for their future, what should they do etc.  In fact I was approached by one group of people with people in financing and they wanted to buy the facility and operate it privately, really privately and they wanted me to come back to the facility and run it for them.
 At that stage I was phoned by people from RRL, the security persons and they threatened me and said: "Look, you will get hurt if you continue getting involved with that".  I told them: "Get lost".  I was warned in that time and in later years twice by friends of mine: "Please, look out, there is a contract out for you", no names.  It's not really important but that's what happened, I mean they phoned me and said: "They want to kill you".
 I was also phoned by friends who said: "Look, you mustn't underestimate the hatred Swanepoel has for you".  Please it's not really relevant but that was the milieux I operated in.  Then we get to the privatisation in '91/'92 of RRL and again as you've heard before, there was a lot of unhappiness going around, who gets the shares and who doesn't get the shares and what should become of the place.  And again I was phoned by scientists and people and informed of what's happening and not happening but I know nothing because I was sitting out in the bushes minding my own business.
 And then I was phoned one day from overseas and said look, - it was a reputable overseas pharmaceutical company who knew me and they wanted to buy it as a facility for themselves but they would be interested if I would managing it again, it I was interested in that option.  I said: "Look, I don't know about this, I have no involvement anymore but, and I'm not really at free will to do it being bound by these documents I've signed".  
 And there were also then people unhappy about the privatisation, scientists and personnel from RBE and they phoned me and some of them threatened to see the Minister, see the press, see this and see that and I thought that would be very dangerous in those years when the negotiations were going, to make this thing known in a wrong way.  I felt it my duty to inform authorities responsible, government authorities, the National Party was still in government and the Minister, I spoke to the Minister of Defence for four hours on the project ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Who was this Minister?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: The Minister was at that stage Roelf Meyer.  I spoke to him for four hours and he confirmed a few things to me Chairman.  He knew Dr Wouter Basson and surely it was Dr Wouter and he knew about the project and he knew about the sensitivities and he made one comment to me, he said but it is difficult for them to control Dr Basson, I said: "Ja, I can imagine, it was also difficult for Dr Basson to control me apparently". That was what Dr Swanepoel told me.
 But anyway, we resolved that who should we ask, the Minister of Defence and I, who should we ask to look into this matter and we agreed that we can approach General Knobel being a man of integrity, being involved in it anyway, being a person I trusted fully, to voice our concerns and approaches.
 In fact, what I told the Minister at that stage is, if this thing is played right, the Government can sell this facility to private enterprise and get back 10 - 12 million into the gate of taxpayers money, at least get 10 - 12 million back.  That is a possibility and I can facilitate in this.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Goosen, I just want to make sure that I got you correctly.  Did you say that you spoke to Roelf Meyer in 1992?  Was it 1992 or ...?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Chairperson, that was round about the times of Boipatong.  I believe it was early in 1992.  That was the time period Mr Meyer was Minister of Defence, it wasn't very long.
 He phoned or contact, I don't know, phoned or contact but he was in contact with General Knobel and General Knobel contacted me telephonically and we had a nice discussion on the phone but of course you cannot speak on the phone of serious matters but I outlined to him the possibility that I might assist him in resolving this problem, in getting money back for the government and advertising this company, get it off their list of concerns, being very sensitive in the negotiations at that stage.
 General Knobel, - but again I voiced also the concerns that there were very unhappy people at that stage running around and who may cause a security breach.  I also informed them about that.  He said he would go into the matter and come back to me and he never came back to me.  So it went by, no problem.   What happened is as you know of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?

UNKNOWN: Dr Goosen, just clarify again for us, you leave the company, you buy a farm, yes, there is some contact inbetween so you've got nothing to do with the company as I understand it, from 1989 onwards.  But in 1992 you still go back, first of all get an appointment with the Minister, so did you know the Minister yourself to be able to get that sort of contact with him?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: And how do you come back into the picture?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: As I explained Mr Chairman, I ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: It's in your interest again.  I know you were still talking to members of the scientific community but you are now talking about wanting to buy this ...[intervention]