Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I must come in here.  I must state that I acted for Mr Mbambo at that trial and it is solely as a result of my probably lack of attention to this particular detail or fault on my part that this is not disclosed.  Clearly I was his instructing attorney at that trial.  I was involved in the drafting together with counsel of the section 112 plea, and it is clearly my mistake that the names of these people aren't here.  In my defence, I did write timeously to the Amnesty Committee and indicate to them that this record was available and this incident was available, and further that the Judge had found in the judgment that there had been political motivation.  So, it wasn't as if we purposely tried to not disclose this.  We in fact supplied the details of this trial to the Amnesty Committee prior to - or to the Truth Commission prior to this matter being heard.

CHAIRPERSON: The case number is referred to in the application form.

UNKNOWN: But, Mr Wills, I'm sure this would probably come up appropriately when you address us.  Has sufficient information been disclosed by your client in respect of the offence that he is now seeking amnesty for?  You haven't led him in respect of the attempted murder.  There is nothing in his evidence-in-chief that has been referred to in respect of this offence.

MR WILLS: Yes.  I must take full responsibility for that.  If I could ask for a short recess to consider that position.  I agree entirely that at this stage you are perfectly correct, in that in respect of the attempted murders there is not sufficient detail.  I wonder if I could ask for a short recess then I can get that information to me from my offices and possibly we can put it on record.  I ask for this, and I apologise profusely from my position for the inconvenience caused.  But it is just one of the things that has slipped my attention.  It's clearly not our intention not to fully disclose these matters.  It simply is clearly a mistake on my part.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: Mr Chairman, before we contemplate whether the matter should stand down, there are some questions which I wish to ask in cross-examination, and I anticipate they will be very brief.  So, it might be opportune if you could dispose of my interests in the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.  Mr Wills, are you wanting to have an adjournment for what purpose?  Just to get some information from your office?

MR WILLS: Yes, and also to put this information - I can't myself recall the names of these individuals and exactly what happened.  What I want is I should have it with me, but if not, I'd want my 112 plea faxed from my office to here and then we can raise the matter with Mr Mbambo before the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, have you finished your questioning?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Please have a look at your affidavit.  And I want you to look at page forty two (42).  Have you got that?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Do you agree that in that affidavit you deal with the murder of Japhi Theledi on pages forty two (42), forty three (43) and forty four (44) of the affidavit?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: And all your allegations in relation to the murder of Japhi Theledi are contained in paragraphs ninety four (94), ninety five (95), ninety six (96), ninety seven (97) and ninety eight (98) of that affidavit?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: Do you agree with me that in those paragraphs dealing with the murder of Japhi Theledi there is no reference whatsoever to Mrs Mbuyase?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: Her name doesn't feature at all?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: In relation to knowledge of the murder of Theledi or complicity in it or happiness over it, regarding the fact that it was carried out.

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWITT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hewitt.  Mr Wills, how long - do you want an adjournment now and then we'll reconvene as soon as possible?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I would like an adjournment now.  Possibly I could discuss this matter with the Committee members in chambers very briefly.

CHAIRPERSON: Will we be coming back here?  I want to know whether we should be adjourning or not.  All right.  We'll just take a short adjournment, five (5) or ten (10 )minutes, and then we'll be coming back.  Thank you.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mbambo, is it not so that there were two who were injured by gunshot wounds in the incident other than Mr Theledi being killed?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And the names of those persons were Miemie Matsana.  That's spelt M-I-E-M-I-E.  Matsana, M-A-T-S-A-N-A.  And Boy Moekwena.

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that you also pleaded guilty to the fact that you were charged with attempted murder in respect of these two persons?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, it is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you explain the circumstances how they were injured?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: As I have explained, that in the shop where we found Mr Japhi Theledi, he was not alone, there were other people in the shop.  I would say it was possible that at the time when I was shooting at Japhi Theledi, some people got injured in the vicinity.  However, I didn't intend to shoot them, I intended to shoot Japhi Theledi.

MR WILLS: Yes, but at the time of shooting Japhi Theledi you foresaw the possibility that another person might get injured, is that right?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, if a bullet ricocheted it might be possible that someone might be shot.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Is there any cross-examination on this new evidence from any of the counsel or attorneys?

MR MAGADI: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAGADI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntuli?

MR NTULI: None, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTULI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Muller?  Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: No, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: On questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just one question.  Mr Mbambo, if I understand you correctly then, the two persons, that is Matsana and Moekwena, if they were injured, were injured by mistake?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: They were never part of the plan wherein the political objective could have been hatched?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: I wasn't sent to go and shoot them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, but what I'm saying is, if it is found that there is the political objective in as far as Mr Theledi is concerned, a similar conclusion cannot be reached in respect of the two other victims?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Moloi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MOLOI: I have none, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

UNKNOWN: I've got none, Mr Chair, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe?

UNKNOWN: Mr Mbambo, in your testimony you've stated that Mrs Mbuyase gave you initial instructions to kill Japhi Theledi when she was in the company of Mvuyane and Hlongwane, and this happened at her house?

ROMEO MBUSO MBAMBO: Yes, it's correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain how you came to state in your comprehensive affidavit that the instructions came from Mr Mvuyane at your house?