Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, it means that someone had given, to use an expression, a hiding with an instrument likely to have been a sjambok or a hosepipe, not so?

MR SNYMAN: That is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: When could it have happened, on your new version?

MR SNYMAN: I would not be able to tell you, but had it occurred, it had probably occurred during that time.  I don't know of rhR.

GEORGE BIZOS: From the moment, your evidence, from the moment that Mr Biko was brought into that fateful room to the moment that you tied him up on the grille with handcuffs and leg-irons, you were present throughout in that room?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: But how could that have happened without you seeing it?  Did you close your eyes, your ears in such a small space?

MR SNYMAN: I did not notice it, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Could you give us some idea of the size of this room?

MR SNYMAN: It is not a very large room.  I can no longer recall the size of the room.

GEORGE BIZOS: Try and give us in relation to any visible space here, how big or small it was?

MR SNYMAN: It was a limited space, it also included a steel cabinet, a desk, a table and chairs as well as the investigative team.

GEORGE BIZOS: You are not suggesting that Mr Biko was beaten with a hosepipe behind a chair, or a steel cabinet deliberately for you not to see? Please tell us how big or small this room was?

MR SNYMAN: I do not know what size the room was.

GEORGE BIZOS: Give us some indication here so that we can have - you know, we can see to the end of this very large hall without any difficulty despite the number of people here.
	Please tell us how you could have missed it, if you can?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not possible, Mr Bizos, it does not benefit him not to disclose if he had taken part or seen this particular injury being inflicted.  It doesn't benefit him from not disclosing it at this stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: This may be, Mr Chairman, but applicants very often in an attempt to avoid responsibility, whether moral or otherwise or for reasons best known to themselves, do not want to make a full disclosure.
	What we are going to submit is that when there is evidence, particularly by an admission made by one of the applicants, that this happened, and we have had a story from this witness that hardly anything happened to him. We are going to suggest that there is a deliberate withholding of the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there no other explanation, because if one of his colleagues inflicted that injury, how does it benefit him from not disclosing it?
	Can't it be explained on the basis that if all this happened in the rough and tumble, he may not remember this particular blow being struck.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, he doesn't say that, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: But is it not a possibility?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I would submit that the Committee at the end of it all will find not on remote possibilities, but on the hard facts.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think that we must just make some progress.

GEORGE BIZOS: And also, one would have expected that when he - when that his colleagues speaks of a hosepipe, that he himself might have mentioned something about it in his evidence.	But leave it as it may, I will leave it there and leave it to argument, Mr Chairman.
	Now why did you use the handcuffs to spread out the arms of Mr Biko?  Am I indicating correctly, the way I am indicating with my arms, slightly above shoulder level and stretched out completely?  Is this how you tied his arms to the grille?  Is that how you did it?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, his arms were not above his head, they were more on a level with his body.

GEORGE BIZOS: Will you please put your arms up the way that you put Mr Biko's arms.

MR SNYMAN: Like this.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, both arms, please, the way that you did it to Mr Biko.

MR SNYMAN: (Witness demonstrates).

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  You show that below, below - and why did you do that?  Why did you put his arms out wide?

MR SNYMAN: The intention was to reduce his resistance.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you told us that he had been confused and hardly in a position to speak and you had the benefit of the handcuffs in order to put an end to his resistance. Why would you have to put his arms out in a comparatively uncomfortable position?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, this was done after he had been lying on the ground for a while and as it appeared that he was improving, we shackled him again and put on the foot-shackles.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you put his arms up in a manner which would have given an injured man some additional discomfort to that of his injuries?

MR SNYMAN: At that stage we did not bear knowledge of the manner of his or the nature of his injuries.

GEORGE BIZOS: What made you - what did you think had caused his slurred speech and his inability to behave in the normal aggressive way that he had behaved before?  Did you not think that it was an injury?

MR SNYMAN: It might well have been the knock against the wall.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, listen to the question please.  Why is it necessary to break the resistance of an injured man?  If you've got a pair of handcuffs and that one handcuff on the grille would have been sufficient with his arm in a comfortable position, why is it necessary to put his arms out in an uncomfortable position?

MR SNYMAN: It was in order to break him down.  We did this when it appeared as if he had improved and that is why we did it again.

GEORGE BIZOS: You also used leg-irons.  How long is the chain between each of the leg-irons?

MR SNYMAN: It's a fair length.

GEORGE BIZOS: Could you give us some indication of its length?

MR SNYMAN: I would say as long as indicated.

GEORGE BIZOS: Approximately 35 centimetres, more or less?

MR SNYMAN: It would be longer than 35 centimetres.

GEORGE BIZOS: Half a metre?

MR SNYMAN: Let's say half a metre, maybe.

GEORGE BIZOS: Half a metre.  And what - it doesn't matter, really - but
why was it necessary to use both hands to be hand-cuffed on the grille and the leg-irons with the chain passed through one of the bars, was it?  So that he didn't have free movement of his legs?  Have I got the picture correctly?

MR SNYMAN: We were not aware of whether he would be able to come up with his tricks again and that is why we chained him down like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why was the chain put on the other side of the one bar, other than to restrict even the movement that leg-irons allow?

MR SNYMAN: It is possible that we acted in an inhumane manner.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, that's one of the franker answers that you've given the Committee.  Can we summarise that the putting up of his arms, that the manner in which you did and using the leg-irons in the manner in which you did, was a form of torture?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.  That might have been the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: For how long did you keep this injured man, which we know had a serious head injury, for how long did you keep him in this position with his arms and legs?  For how long?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, after I reported to Col Goosen and after he had seen the person himself, he remained in that position.  Subsequent to that, I withdrew, so I would not know when he was unchained.  There were people who guarded him through the night.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was he given an opportunity - what time did you go away?

MR SNYMAN: I reported to Col Goosen after the incident.  I then accompanied him to the interrogation room.  After he had assured himself of the exact circumstances of Biko, he instructed me to withdraw.

GEORGE BIZOS: I thought that you waited there in order to get a report whether his position improved so that you could continue the interrogation.  Isn't that what you told us?

MR SNYMAN: No, but that is what I said to the people who were supposed to guard him;  that should there be an improvement, they should call us.

GEORGE BIZOS: So you waited there, hoping that that would happen?