Amnesty Hearings — Witbank — 2000-01-31

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: ...(indistinct) the area during different times of the day, going around the shops opposite there and check what's happening.  That was the best we could do because we couldn't just get in there and check inside what's happening.

MR SCHULTZ: And do I understand also correctly that you did not only look at the area itself?  Did you also look at the movements of the police and civilians in this area?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: We checked the building and that building was used by the police mostly.

MR SCHULTZ: During the course of your reconnaissance, did you notice that this building is not only occupied by the police?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes, we did.

MR SCHULTZ: Did you notice that the police actually occupied only a small portion of the building?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I was not sure about the portion, how big it is that they were occupying.

MR SCHULTZ: Did you notice that one portion of the building was taken up by the NBS Bank?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: And another portion by Protea Furnishers, a furniture shop.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I cannot recall how far it was or how close it was, but I remember there was a furniture shop somewhere.

MR SCHULTZ: Did you notice that part of the building was taken up by a Doctor's surgery?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I can't remember that.

MR SCHULTZ: Now what can you remember exactly about this building?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: No, that there was a bank, I remember that, but these other business premises, I cannot recall all of them, Santam Bank.

MR SCHULTZ: Now your reconnaissances to this area where the bomb was to be placed, it took place on different days and different times.  What were the times which you can remember when you visited these premises or checked out these premises, to put it that way?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: From the morning hours.

MR SCHULTZ: Sorry?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Morning hours.

MR SCHULTZ: Was it mostly in the morning hours?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Morning hours day and afternoons.

MR SCHULTZ: Now can you just explain again, there's one aspect that I don't quite understand.  Why specifically was it decided that the bomb would explode in the morning?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: That was according to what we found out is that the police report there for duty in the morning and then they go out into foreign tasks, so the morning part was a time when you get the majority of them going there.

MR SCHULTZ: Is that also the reason why a Monday morning was chosen?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: On the particular day, I'm not sure, I don't think there was any particular reason whether it could have been a Monday or Wednesday, I don't know.

MR SCHULTZ: Now, as you previously stated, there was definite danger for civilians, innocent civilians to be injured and killed in this bomb explosion.  Did you, during the course of your reconnaissance, take note of times when there probably would be the least civilians present when a bomb could explode?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think I did explain that earlier, that we, to an extent, we did consider that the civilians will be hit during the courses.

MR SCHULTZ: That is indeed what you said, but that's not my question.  My question is did you take note of times when the least possible civilian casualties or injuries would be caused by the explosion of the bomb?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: According to our analysis of the situation, at that time of the morning, it was not yet that easy.  If it would have happened a bit later, I think we would have had more civilian casualties.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did take note?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Ja, we did.

CHAIRPERSON: In thought.

MR SCHULTZ: Are you aware now that this bomb exploded at 8.14 exactly on that morning of the 24th of October?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I cannot comment on the exact time.

JUDGE DE JAGER: 1 - 4, 14, date.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: 1 - 4.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Schultz.

MR SCHULTZ: Thank you Madam Chair.  You, when you reconnoitred the area, you were aware that civilians would be injured.  How did you feel at that stage in 1988 about innocent civilians doing their banking business, probably being killed, or seriously injured by this explosion?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: The main consideration was our target and then the civilians, we thought about them, but if we were intending solely to kill civilians, we would have placed the bomb somewhere else and targeted civilians, but that civilians were not our target, it's just unfortunate that we could not avoid the death of innocent people.

MR SCHULTZ: Mr Nyalunga, I want to refer you to your application for amnesty, specifically on page 5, going over to page 6 of the bundle of documents, specifically question 10 (a) where you have to state the political objectives sought to be achieved by this act.  You say there
"To kill all those who associated and enforced the policies of the previous government"
and then in 10 (b) I take it that you say that the police force members were regarded as enemies of the people, so your main objective was to kill police force members?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

MR SCHULTZ: Was there not, in your opinion, another way to kill police force members without the risk or with lessening of the risk of killing innocent civilians?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think on this one, we know for a fact that previously, the Special Branch particularly, had hired offices in premises that are business premises and our people were being tortured in those buildings and they're using those premises in order to avoid being erased.  At one point in time we had to target those buildings.

MR SCHULTZ: Was it your specific intention to kill members of the Special Branch of the police or would any member of the police have done?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Can you repeat your question?

MR SCHULTZ: Was it your specific intention to kill members of the Special Branch of the police, or would you have been satisfied to kill any member of the South African Police?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Both.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Schultz, is this emanating from what you've referred him to, pertinently page 6 and paragraph 10 (b)?

MR SCHULTZ: That is correct.  That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, hasn't he been specific in that regard, that all police force members and army personnel, he's given a wider category of the people that were the intended targets?

MR SCHULTZ: Thank you Madam Chair, I appreciate you showing me that.  There is one question following from all of this which I would ask in finalisation of this specific matter.  Sir, Mr Nyalunga, could you not have placed a bomb at the Witbank Police Station which was further away from the centre of town, the centre of business?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I was not making the decisions, I had a Commandeer.

MR SCHULTZ: Was this not discussed at all?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: He took the final decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this discussed at all?  That was the question.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: No, it was never discussed.

MR SCHULTZ: And the Commander to which you refer?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Thabane, Kholile Sam.

MR SCHULTZ: Just to get to the assembling of the bomb itself, you said that you were present there when the bomb was assembled in the car and you and Comrade Silver, your co-applicant, took turns watching out for passing civilians or passers by.  What exact part did you take in the assembling of the bomb itself, what exactly did you do?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I mean we had to put things in order in the boot, so that the whole thing doesn't shake, assist there and in connecting certain wires, we would assist there.

MR SCHULTZ: Both of you?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Ja and then in turns go out and whilst the other one is outside, the other one is inside.