Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman if I may just mention, I believe the family are there, they don't have any equipment, I don't believe they can hear anything, if I'm not mistaken.  I don't know if I should mention this now.  I think it is important that they hear what the applicant says, sir.  I'm sorry sir, they can hear.  	That is evidence thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman my instructions is that, it may be just for the record purposes, the deceased's full names and correct names were Morris Auri Ngozo.  The first name is Morris with two R's.  Morris.  The second name is Auri, A U R I.  And the correct spelling of the surname is N G O Z O, Ngozo.  Morris Auri Ngozo.  That's the deceased's correct name sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he also known as Kraai Mambaso?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, my instructions is that the sister of the deceased is available and she is here today.  She is opposing the application of the applicant.  My suggestion at this stage is Mr Chairman, because of all sorts of reasons, that a sworn statement will be handed in in this regard.  I would like, however, in fairness sake, to put a version of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No plan that she should testify?

ADV STEENKAMP: There is a request from her to do so, Mr Chairman.  My suggestion is she wasn't in attendance when the deceased was killed.  However, the reason why he was killed is, according to her, far different to what the applicant is putting before you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP: So my suggestion and my request is, Mr Chairman, I'll ask a few questions on ...(indistinct) and then in support of that a sworn statement will be handed in, which is currently being taken.  If you would allow me that.  Thank you Mr Chairman, Honoured Members.  Sir, according to the sister of the deceased the deceased were never a member of the IFP.  He was actually a member of the ANC.  Do you have any comment on that?

TANKISO KOENA: That I, I'm not aware of that.

ADV STEENKAMP: But you're not disputing that?

TANKISO KOENA: Please rephrase your question.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that the deceased was a member of the Khumalo gang and therefore supportive at least of the IFP.  The sister of the deceased is going to say that this not so, you are not telling the truth, he was in fact a member of the ANC.

MR SHANE: Sorry Mr Chairman, the reason is not that.  The reason is he was an informer of the internal stability unit of the SAP.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say that the deceased was attached to the IFP?

MR SHANE: No sir, the reason was his membership of, his being an informer for the South African police internal stability  unit. It's the only reason.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.

ADV STEENKAMP: I beg your pardon as well Mr Chairman.  My notes must be wrong but I had it as saying that.  I withdraw the question.  So the sister's view is this.  The reason why the deceased was killed was because he was working for a security company called Alert Industries.  Do you have any knowledge of this?  Do you know or did you know that at the time he used to work for Alert Industries?

TANKISO KOENA: That I was not aware of, and I don't have any evidence to that.

ADV STEENKAMP: The reason for him to be killed was because he did make, or reported you to the police, in his capacity as a security guard working for Alert Industries, because according to the information she had he reported you for being involved in a car theft incident.

TANKISO KOENA: I've never stolen a car in my life.  I don't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but what is being put to you is that the reason for him being killed was because he named you in a car theft incident.  Whether the car theft incident was true or not is not the point.

TANKISO KOENA: He reported the deceased, not me.

CHAIRPERSON: So you, as far as you're concerned he was not killed because of a report related to his work, but because he was an informer of the internal stability unit.

TANKISO KOENA: That's correct, sir.

ADV STEENKAMP: The last question to you is, if necessary a statement will be handed in, and a statement, a sworn statement will be handed in, where the sister will indicate that the deceased, her late brother was killed because there was a pending criminal action against you.

TANKISO KOENA: That is not so, sir.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  That is in broad lines the reason for the opposition of the application, and if you would allow me if time concerns I will later hand in a sworn statement, and a copy thereof will also be made available to my learned colleague as soon as possible.
Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Do you intend to call the sister now?

ADV STEENKAMP: The sister is present if you would allow that Mr Chairman.  She can just testify quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) These other formalities, and while he is still in the box maybe he wants to listen to what she's got to say.

ADV STEENKAMP: As you - I would then call the sister.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, before, I just want to finish other  aspects.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  What did you know about the criminal matter?  What did you know about the criminal matter that was pending viz a viz this theft of this car?

TANKISO KOENA: I was not aware of that.  I never stole any car.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a case about it?

TANKISO KOENA: No, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not arrested for car theft?

TANKISO KOENA: No, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never appeared in Court on charges of car theft or something related to a theft out of a car or whatever?

TANKISO KOENA: No, sir.

ADV GCABASHE: Did Gamso say anything at all to you about this car theft?

TANKISO KOENA: No, sir.  No.

ADV GCABASHE: Where did you get your information that Kraai was an informer for the ISU?

TANKISO KOENA: The deceased Gamso told me that.

ADV GCABASHE: No other source?  Was Gamso your only source?

TANKISO KOENA: That's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: So when Gamso approached you as you were sitting outside, and asked you to guard Kraai, at that time did you know that Kraai was an informer, or did you only hear about it afterwards?

TANKISO KOENA: I already knew.  He had already told me.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Did I heard you say the alleged car theft was against Gamso?

TANKISO KOENA: I did not know, maybe it was as to whether Gamso was stealing cars.  I did not know.  I did not hear that.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words you are hearing it for the first time today, about car theft.  Are you hearing it for the first time today?

TANKISO KOENA: Yes, that is correct.  I hear it for the first time.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want you to sit next to your attorney, because I am going to give an opportunity to the deceased's sister to testify.  I'm going to allow you to sit there just in case she says something with which you don't agree, and you can tell it.  Do you understand?  Do you understand that?

TANKISO KOENA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp is this going to be a sworn, under oath, testimony under oath.

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman that will be testimony under oath.  The deceased's sister, her name is Thabatha, T H A B A T H A, and her surname is Ngozo, N G O Z O.  That's confirmed.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  I would, it's miss.  Mr Chairman I would also like to ask for permission if I can maybe just to save some time lead her in asking a few questions to get to the point.  Thank you Mr Chairman, she can be sworn in.

THABATHA NGOZO: (sworn, states)

ADV STEENKAMP: Ms Ngozo, am I right in saying that you are the sister of the deceased in this matter, Morris Auri Ngozo? Is that correct?

THABATHA NGOZO: Yes, that's correct.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us for record purposes exactly when was he killed, when did he die?