Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect Mr Thulo, you've never seen me before today, but if somebody told you to stop next to me, surely the only logical inference to draw is that that person knows what I look like?  Surely even you as a Security Branch policeman who made it to Sergeant, ...(indistinct) be able to tell us that that's obvious.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It may be so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I don't understand why you are being so evasive, but anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, you may proceed.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	When you left the farm to go and fetch Tax, were you going to go look for him in Lesotho, or were you going to fetch him somewhere in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, we were instructed to go and fetch Tax in Lesotho.

MR MAPOMA: Weren't you going to fetch him at his place of residence in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: How do you know that you weren't going to do that, because your evidence so far has been that you didn't know what the plan was, you didn't know where you were going to go and pick him up, you were just told to drive.  That's your evidence so far.  So how do you know that you weren't going to fetch him from his home?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Because I was instructed to stop the car at a taxi rank, that's where we found Tax there.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.
	And then after you found him at the taxi rank what did you do?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: After he entered the car we returned to Ladybrand.

MR MAPOMA: You did not go to his place of residence?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: If somebody says that Tax was found - he found Tax in his place of residence in Lesotho, that person must be lying, isn't it so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Now about KK.  Your evidence was that you were instructed by Mr Robertshaw to go recruit KK in Lesotho, failing which, take him to the farm, do you recall that?  Am I quoting you correctly?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we pause at this juncture and take the tea break?  We'll adjourn for 15 minutes for tea.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: It would appear that it's still hot, those who feel like taking their jackets off, may do so.  Mr Mapoma, you were still cross-examining Mr Thulo.
	Mr Thulo, you were asked about KK when we adjourned for tea.

MR MAPOMA: (cont)
	Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Thulo, now when you left with Mr Jantjie to go to KK, did you discuss a plan with Mr Jantjie on how you were intending to recruit him in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: When we went to fetch KK everything started in the office where we had a discussion about KK, our senior, Robertshaw, gave us an instruction that we should go to recruit KK, if we are not successful we should abduct him.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I appreciate that.  Now what I want to find out is whether you had any plan as to how you were going to recruit him in Lesotho, at all?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, on our way with Mr Jantjie we did not hatch a plan of how we're going to recruit him.

MR MAPOMA: And other than that KK was a trained MK cadre, is there anything you knew about KK?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not discussed before when Mr Robertshaw gave you instructions to recruit him, that: "but be aware that he is a trained MK cadre"?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, we were informed that KK is staying in Roma and then again, he's an MK member.  As it applies to all MK members, he was military trained, so that we should go and recruit him to be our informer, then "if you are unable to do so, bring him".

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Jagga gave evidence before this Committee, where he said that Mr Robertshaw told him that KK was involved in a shoot-out that took place in Lesotho ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm not even going to enter into a discussion about that, but that wasn't Jagga's evidence, but Jagga did concede that he had knowledge of the shoot-out, but he didn't say Robertshaw told him.  But he conceded he had knowledge about that and he said that he heard that from the Lesotho police.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is when he was asked about it, not that he did it voluntarily.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I appreciate that Chairperson, but I think I have to verify this in the transcript.  My memory, if it doesn't fail me, not only did he concede but I asked him how did he know that and he said he heard that from Mr Robertshaw.  But I may have to verify that, Chairperson, I'm not going to take it now at this point.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is important to you, verify it.

MR MAPOMA: Could the Chairperson just bear with me.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, to be of assistance, it's around page 303 onwards and I will find you a passage in a moment where he says he heard it from the Lesotho police.  Yes Chairperson, it's in fact at page 304
"

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon, I may just ask you before you continue, what you are now telling the Committee is not your own knowledge."
that's referring to this whole issue of where Mphilo was wounded and KK ran away and Radebe was killed.  And he says:
"No, Chairperson, this is not my own personal knowledge."
		"

MR VISSER: Where did you obtain this information from, Mr Jagga?"
		"From the Lesotho police, Chairperson, after the incident."

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: The fourth line from the bottom.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, it may well be, but this is the re-examination which was being referred to here.

MR VISSER: This is evidence-in-chief, Chairperson, unless our records are not the same.

MR MAPOMA: I'll leave it at that Chairperson, at this point, I don't want to delay the proceedings.

MR VISSER: But I'm not objecting to my learned friend's questioning, it may be relevant, I'm not objecting to his questioning, I'm just putting the facts straight.

CHAIRPERSON: That's how I understood you, Mr Visser.  And that's what I was putting to him as well, Mr Mapoma, that I am not, but I just want it to be put as it appears in the record, because we should appreciate that Mr Thulo was not present when he testified, that is Mr Jagga.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I appreciate that.
	Mr Thulo, during your discussions about KK, did it not occur to you - did you not get information that KK was involved in an incident in Lesotho, where three MK cadres, including KK, were shot at?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't recall that fact, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Now when you went to the farm with KK, on your arrival in the farm, where were other persons who were abducted?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: When we arrived at the farm I recall that KK was there alone, others were not there.

INTERPRETER: For the benefit of Mr Mapoma, let me repeat the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do so, I see he was changing headphones.

INTERPRETER: When we arrived at the farm we found only KK and others were not there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the others, you're referring to Ms Betty Boom, Ms Nomasonto Mashiya and Tax Sejanamane?  Are you referring to those people when you say "the others were not there"?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Then Mr Thulo, I propose to you that it cannot be then correct that you went to fetch KK two days after Betty Boom was fetched.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, that was never his evidence, that was never anybody's evidence.  With great respect, my learned friend seems not to have come to grasp with the evidence.  The evidence was that Betty Boom was fetched, a day later Nomasonto was fetched, a day later Tax was fetch, and they were all taken back and then KK was fetched and that was a day or two or even a little later than that.  That was the evidence.

MR LAX: This witness's evidence was that KK was taken a day or two after the others were returned.