Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

WITNESS:   I would not know who gave us the number of the tombstone but Sergeant Malebo was responsible for this investigation and then Masoleni told us he's buried with his clothes.

MRS NTOMBELA: Do you know where Sergeant Malebo is now?

WITNESS:   He's at Kroonstad. In the police station there?   ---   He's on pension now so I don't know where he's working.  Somewhere in one shop there.

MRS NTOMBELA: Who is this person who told you that he was buried with his clothes?

WITNESS:   It's Masoleni who told us.

MRS NTOMBELA: You mentioned two people.  Who is the other one?  Is it just Malebo?

WITNESS:   It was Masoleni.  When I was accompanied by Sergeant Malebo to the police station, Masoleni told us that report.

MRS NTOMBELA: Masoleni is also a policeman?  At which police station?

WITNESS:   He's a policeman.  He was a policeman at Tabong.

MRS NTOMBELA: When Masoleni came home to tell you that your son, he told you - who else was present when he told you that?

WITNESS:   We were two in the house.  It was me and my neighbour.  The neighbour left.  Now she's in the new houses.

MRS NTOMBELA: Do you know where she is and what's her name?

WITNESS:   Her name is Elsie.

MRS NTOMBELA: Elsie.  Surname?

WITNESS:   It's Elsie Soekmelk.

MRS NTOMBELA: And you know where he stays now?

WITNESS:   Yes, I know.

MRS NTOMBELA: It could help if you could give us more information after your testimony here.  Secondly - okay, the other thing I want ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   I don't know her number because I'm not able to read.

MRS NTOMBELA: But you know the house?

WITNESS:   Yes, I know the house.

MRS NTOMBELA: Can you tell us, Mama, how has this affected you?  It must have been a terrible thing that happened.  How is your health now?

WITNESS:   I'm sick.  The doctor says  I'm suffering from nervous disorder.

MRS NTOMBELA: Tell us more.  What's this nervous disorder?

WITNESS:  I don't know but they are pulling me from the back, from the neck.

MRS NTOMBELA: What's pulling you from the neck?

WITNESS:   These nerves are stiff at the back, so I could feel that pain from the back.

MRS NTOMBELA: You're getting treatment from the doctor.  Do you have to pay for it?

WITNESS:   Yes, I pay.  It has been as long time that I've been to the doctor.

MRS NTOMBELA: Mama, are you working?

WITNESS:   I'm not working.

MRS NTOMBELA: Your children, are they working?

WITNESS:   It's Steven and Miriam who are working.  But Steven has his own family so Miriam came back from the in-laws, so he's with us.

MRS NTOMBELA: Thank you very much, Mama, you have given us very useful information and it's a very difficult situation, you know, to know what happened to your son.  But for you to come over today and to tell us your story to be able even to be what you are, it means that there is something very strong in you.  Probably some of us can learn from you as to how we have coped with this difficult situation.  As Commissioners we have noted all your experiences, your needs and, as had already been said, we will communicate whatever information we have to the President and you are one of those people whom we're going to make recommendations about.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mama Gcabashe?
/OUPA MATHEBULA
OUPA MATHEBULA

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Opah, when you were talking you said the intention was you wanted to be equal with the whites.  That tells me that you have an intention about your life.  I want to know as to whether are you at school and what's happening to you?

WITNESS:   I left school now.  I'm working.

MRS GCABASHE: Where are you working?

WITNESS:   I'm working at auto electrician.

MRS GCABASHE: Which standard did you complete?

WITNESS:   I completed Standard 9.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you have intention to go forth?

WITNESS:   No.  Yes, because I'm doing correspondence courses now.  I'm corresponding for my matric.

MRS GCABASHE: That's good to see that what we are fighting for you are fighting that ultimately you've got to ... (inaudible) ... so please continue and finish your matric.  (Side A of tape end.  Side B commences mid-sentence without overlap)

WITNESS:   ... mother.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you very much Jafta's mother an Oupa.  As a minister of religion this gives me a picture of that story in the New Testament where it is said that when Jesus was about to die he knew that he was going to leave his mother alone and he found a son for the mother.  That was John.  He said, "Woman, behold your son," and then he looked at the son, the new son given to Maria and he said that, "Son, behold your mother."  So that is what I see today that although Oupa was the friend of Jafta, when Jafta left Oupa took the place and became your son to stand with you when you testified and this is great.  It is also fulfilling that ...  (inaudible) ... saying.  We say that a friend in need is a friend indeed.  Many people with many friends, they run away when the other friends need the help.  So this is very highly appreciated what Oupa's has done to come with the mother to support her so that the mother could also have the courage to say something about the death of her son.
MRS NTOMBELA

CHAIRPERSON: The only thing which we missed here, which I didn't hear about the name of the son-in-law.  What is the name of the son-in-law?  Maybe I missed?

WITNESS:   He's Malebo.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does he live so that if we want to get more information too from him?

WITNESS:   He's in Kroonstad.

CHAIRPERSON: Where in Kroonstad?  Do you know the ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   I do not know the number but he stays right in town.  But he has to move to a new house.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, anyway you can - if you don't know the number, if we need him we can take you so that you can show us where he is.  Well, thank you very much for coming.  Strength to you Oupa and good luck in your studies when you correspond.  Thank you.  As the committee members have already said, we have noted all your requests and we shall channel them through the right sources.

CHAIRPERSON: /CHAIRMAN

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that Mashiya, Rose Denio Mashiya who was not available this morning is now here.  EXCHANGE OF GREETINGS BETWEEN CHAIRMAN AND WITNESS

CHAIRPERSON: Before you tell us about your story I would like you to take an oath that what you are going to say here is true, God helping you.

ROSE DENIO MASHIYA: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming, Rose, to tell your story about one of your blood.  Now, the person who's going to lead you is none other than Mrs Regina Gcabashe, one of the committee members.

MRS GCABASHE: As it was said that you have come here to tell us about the loss of your son we welcome and thank you that you are able to be here and that you were supposed to be here and be one of those witnesses who are coming to tell us publicly what has happened about your son and many other people who died then.  Please be comfortable and tell us exactly what happened.  Before we start to tell us about your story, may you tell us about your family.  Tell us about your children, your husband, etcetera.

WITNESS:   I have no husband.  I have six children.  Oupa is my firstborn who was born in 1968.

MRS GCABASHE: May you tell us all their ages?

WITNESS:   Oupa was born in 1968 and he's the firstborn.  Then the other was born in 1971 and then Ouma was born in 1975, then Mamusa was born in 1977, then Lebogang was born in 1988 - that's '83.

MRS GCABASHE: What his name, Lebogang?

WITNESS:   Ja, Lebogang.  Then Kempoleng who was born in 1988.  Then from there is  /Oupa's

MRS GCABASHE: Oupa's child.

MRS GCABASHE: How old is Oupa's child?

WITNESS:   He's five years now.

MRS GCABASHE: Are there some of them who are working?