Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR MGIDLANA: In fact my information is to the contrary, it is that it was the members of security police.

CHAIRPERSON: Put it to him, he is saying that the soldiers played no role at all.

MR MGIDLANA: So could you answer the question Mr Siqhola?  The question was my information is that the soldiers just played the back up role otherwise the people who effected the arrest were yourselves and in actual fact before that you had searched the premises, you effected the arrest, you tortured Makubela there and then.

CHAIRPERSON: By saying you're talking and not him personally but the security branch members.

MR MGIDLANA: Members of the - yes as it pleases.
	Is that not so?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There was no commissioned officer with the police.  The commissioned officer was the lieutenant with the soldiers and a police cannot lead an operation when the soldiers are there and they are the ones who went there to the Makubelas and then they came back even when he was taken out of the house, he was taken by the soldiers.  He was then put on water by the soldiers when he's hurt and then Makubela then said that the terrorists were in Mr Jafta's shop.  Then the soldiers said that they were not investigators so they handed Mr Makubela over to us.  We then took him to Mr Jafta's shop.  I cannot dispute that information, maybe that person is defending himself.

MR MGIDLANA: We don't this, there's no reason why he should defend himself.  What time did you arrive at the Jafta's place, was it at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: What I noticed is that the sun rose when we were there but I'm not sure about the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what time of the year was this, can you remember what the month was?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: First week after the new year, it was in January.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would be quite an early sunrise.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you recall the year specifically because in your affidavit you talk about 1986.  The Jafta's say it was in 1987.  Are you able to agree with them that it was in January 1987?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I do not dispute that, it might be January 1987 but I went there to Mr Jafta's house, maybe I've forgotten the year.

MR MGIDLANA: And the date was not the first week after the new year, it was some time on the 21st January.  Are you able to dispute that?  21 January 1987?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I'm not sure about the date, I'm not asking for amnesty concerning the dates, I'm asking for what I did.

MR MGIDLANA: All Mr Mgidlana is putting to you is that it occurred on the 21st January 1987.  Do you dispute that or are you sure that it was the first week and not the 21st?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I'm not sure but it was in January.

CHAIRPERSON: So we take it that you wouldn't dispute the 21st January 1987?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I wouldn't dispute that.

MR MGIDLANA: So when you went to Jafta's shop how many were you as members of the security police and if you can also tell me the names of those persons that were present?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The first one is Captain Siqhola - myself, Sgt Tshota, the third is Warrant Officer Ndobela, the fourth one is Constable Temane, the fifth one is Constable Tyani, the sixth one was Warrant Officer Mzinyati, the seventh one was Constable Gumengu, number eight was Constable Chiyane.  Those are the people that I remember, I'm not saying that was all but those are the ones I can remember.

MR MGIDLANA: Was there no one amongst yourselves who was holding the rank of captain by then?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: I see that there were two warrant officers.  Who was actually in charge of your operation from your side as the police?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes there were two warrant officers.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was in charge of that group that you mentioned of the security branch.  Who took it upon himself or who was the leader of that particular group when they went to the Jafta's shop?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was Warrant Officer Ndobela.

MR MGIDLANA: Was Mr Mfaswe, I don't know what rank he had by then, was he not amongst those who were there present?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No he was not in this group.  If he arrived maybe he arrived later.

MR MGIDLANA: But the other people arrived after you had already knocked and had already met Mr Jafta, he had taken you to the shop where he had said that Boy was sleeping and there had already been a shootout that had already taken place, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes a lot of them arrived after the shooting.

MR MGIDLANA: Why I'm asking that was Mfaswe not there it's because they say that Mfaswe was there and in actual fact Boy Jafta says he was assaulted by Mfaswe with a rifle butt.  Are you certain that Mfaswe was not there or it's just that you can't recall?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Boy Jafta, I'm not sure who assaulted him but he was assaulted on the second day after he was arrested, after he was taken out of that forest or bush.  Before his arrest I was not even in the shop I was in the garage at the back.  The first time I saw him being assaulted was when he was arrested after the second day.

MR MGIDLANA: And in fact they say you were there, you accompanied Mr Jafta towards the shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Mr Boy Jafta?

MR MGIDLANA: No, Mr Max Jafta, that is the owner.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we can use the names just so that we don't get confused?

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases.  Are you disputing that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The person who woke Mr Jafta up was Sergeant Madikizela and Warrant Officer Ndobela.  Those were the people who went to the house to wake him up.  They are the ones who went with him to the shop to knock at the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact Mr Max Jafta says you appeared as he was led by the person who had knocked on the back door of his house so as he was led by this person going towards the shop you appeared and you became the second person now in that entourage towards the shop and Mfaswe joined in later?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I can support my statement.  The person who shot at us using the AK-47, I know him, we were staying together in Norwood in the same house.  He is the one who saved me because he shot up on top, he didn't want to shoot directly at me so this proves that I was not next to the shop but I was at the back of the shop next to the garage when they were knocking in front.

MR MGIDLANA: Well be that as it may, Mr Siqhola, that's what they're saying and in fact both of them, that is Max and Boy, they say that Mfaswe then appeared as - in fact Mfaswe is the one who first hit Boy as he opened the door of the shop.  Boy is certain that he was hit by Mfaswe with a rifle butt "as I opened the shop, the door of the shop where I was sleeping".  So do you dispute that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Maybe they saw someone else and thought that it was Mr Mfaswe but I cannot dispute that if they say so but I was at the back, I was facing the door, the back door of the shop.

MR MGIDLANA: They say you even said somebody fired a shot and you asked from Mr Max Jafta as to who was firing the shot and that he told you, he says he told you that it must be the man who was standing across the road next to your motor vehicles.  Do you dispute that?  I'm just trying to remind you.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He was not asking me, I am sure of that because I was the person who was in trouble at the back.

MR MGIDLANA: He's not saying he was asking from you, he says you asked from him as to who was shooting and he told you that it must be the man who was standing there and apparently that man was standing over there next to the motor vehicle and had indeed fired a shot?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I wouldn't ask K K to him because I know this person so maybe they're making a mistake.