Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't recall it.

MR DUKADA: So I take it that up to now you as a member of the underground unit, you don't know that a Minister of State went to Radio Transkei and read out a list of names of students at the University of Transkei who had received training at Lesotho?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know it.

MR DUKADA: And in that list it was Batandwa Ndondo and he was mentioned as the last student in the list, read by the Minister?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I didn't even see it, I don't know it.

MR DUKADA: Now surely your knowledge about the politics of Transkei must be very shallow Mr Dandala?  Do you agree with me?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It could be.

MR DUKADA: Particularly as a member of the underground unit who was supposed to be vigilant, your knowledge about the events that were taking place is very shallow?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As I say, it could be.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dukada, when was this broadcast over the radio?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairman, it was in 1984.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible] Mr Dandala, the kind of information which the Minister is alleged to have broadcast over the radio, would that be the sort of information that as a security branch you would be interested in?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And Mr Dandala, during 1984, Batandwa Ndondo was detained by the security police for the activities at the University of Transkei many times, you know about that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know it.

MR DUKADA: You mean Mr Dandala, as a member of an underground unit, you don't know that Batandwa Ndondo was detained in Transkei by the security branch many times?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Sorry, can I ask the question?

MR DUKADA: The question to you is.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Because I was recruited late 1984 so I don't know what happened during the year 1984.

CHAIRPERSON: The question that is being put to you is that, are you suggesting that, as a member of the security branch operating in Transkei, you had no knowledge that the deceased had been detained by the Transkeian security branch many times?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, I have no knowledge.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now, I mean as a member of, sorry Mr Chairman, I'm repeating the same question but I'm just putting an emphasis to the witness, you mean at the time Mr Dandala, as a member, not necessarily as a member of the underground unit but as a member of the security branch, you were completely aware about the detentions which took place at the University of Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I was not aware of those detentions.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you stationed as a security branch police officer?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Firstly I was stationed at Manfrey then I was taken to the head office.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was the head office?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the head office?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Here in ...[inaudible].

CHAIRPERSON: In Umtata?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: In Umtata.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and when was that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was in 1985.  I don't remember the month, but early.

CHAIRPERSON: So by early 1985 you were operating as a security branch in Umtata?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And at the time Ndondo in 1984 was not only an ordinary student at the University but he was a high profile student, a student activist, did you know that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.  I didn't know it.

MR DUKADA: Did you know of any other student activist belonging to the University of Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Do you know of any student being detained in Transkei in 1984?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know.

MR DUKADA: Now in 1985, 26th June, '85 the Umtata Fuel Depot was bombed.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Did you get any information about the culprits?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I didn't get that information about the culprits.

MR DUKADA: What did you do as the underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: In fact as the underground security member we were trying to get information but we couldn't manage to get it, concerning the bombing.

MR DUKADA: And subsequently you know very well that on the 12th October 1985, K T Matanzima announced publicly that Ndondo was responsible for the bombing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I heard that announcement from the radio.

MR DUKADA: And you know very well that a different person, a complete different person was charged with the bombing of the fuel depot?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know.

MR DUKADA: Don't you know that a certain gentleman by the name of Venner was charged with the bombing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: But you were still a member of the underground unit in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And yet you didn't know that an MK cadre was charged with the bombing of Umtata Fuel Depot, not Batandwa Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I didn't know that he was charged of bombing.

MR DUKADA: And you don't even know that the gentleman Venner was ultimately released after the ANC had been unbanned, you don't know that as well?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know it.

MR DUKADA: Now if I can read to you before we, sorry Mr Chairman, this is irritating, it's done by me unintentionally.  I'll just read it to you, a daily despatch of the Sunday Star, in fact the quotation I will be reading out to you it spreads throughout the national newspapers in Transkei as well as the Republic.  It's a statement which was made by the then State President of Transkei, K T Matanzima.
"I want the whole world to know that here in Transkei we know the people who are causing trouble.  Recently a young man called Ndondo was killed in Xala.  Many people are asking why Mr Ndondo was killed.  He is the one who came from Lesotho with others and exploded a bomb in Umtata.  The petrol depot which exploded should have killed the whole of the Umtata population was destroyed by this young fellow, Ndondo.  You will see the Communists when we are asking what has Ndondo done.  Must you all be killed because of these people."
Now I just want you to concentrate on this following paragraph.
"Your President, your Prime Minister and your cabinet will not allow such atrocities to take place in Transkei."
You know about this speech?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I know about it from the radios.

MR DUKADA: And surely the person, when the former State President said your President, your Prime Minister and your cabinet will not allow such atrocities to take place in Transkei.  That gives the impression that you had known about the killing before it took place?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That myself?

MR DUKADA: No, ...[inaudible] the President, yes.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No no.

MR DUKADA: Do you understand the question?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Could you come again please?

MR DUKADA: No.  When he says that your President, your Prime Minister and your cabinet will not allow such atrocities to take place in Transkei, that gives the impression that he had known about the killing before it took place, do you agree with me?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Myself or?

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't follow Mr Dukada does it?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't understand your question.

MR DUKADA: I'm sorry Mr Chairman let me just re-phrase the question.  It might be sounding inappropriate.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible]

MR DUKADA: It's the Sunday Star but I have more cuttings ... [inaudible].

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible]

MR DUKADA: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible]

MR DUKADA: Well unfortunately Mr Chairman I have one copy.  At the appropriate stage I will hand them in.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible]