Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, we will then have to take it one step further.  Do you stand by your evidence in at the inquest court that you never observed a firearm with this particular marchers prior to the shooting taking place?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's my evidence.

MR PRETORIUS: Besides the fact that a shot struck the window next to you what else could give you the impression that shots were fired from the crowd?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Do you want my distinct impression that gunfire was emanating from the crowd?

MR PRETORIUS: That must have been based then on what you heard only?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, my recollection is that the bullet struck the window next to me, that's how I recollected the events.

MR PRETORIUS: Now we now know that you didn't even hear the shot that was fired one metre away from you or you perceived that shot to be fired by the crowd which was in fact at that stage 50 metres from you?  How can we rely, on what else can we rely or could you indicate to us why can you say that the shots emanated from the crowd?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I can only re-iterate, that's my recollection of the events, I can't reconstruct the events any differently, the only thing that can change - tell me that things are different - is the ballistic evidence, tells me what I saw did not happen - I can't recollect something - I can't reconstruct something which I never saw.  This is how I saw it, this is what I told the inquest, that's what I'm going to tell the Committee - I stick by that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand your evidence to really mean that you have a distinct impression that gunfire did emanate from the crowd?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, that's my recollection - that's my recollection of the events Mr Chairman.

MR PRETORIUS: But we do understand it as well that you gained that impression because of the fact that a bullet struck the window in front of you or just in immediate vicinity and otherwise, all that you had to gain impression from is what you hear?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I heard gunfire emanating from the crowd, that's what I recall.

MR PRETORIUS: But at the same time we now know that you say that you didn't even hear the fire by Mr Khumalo immediately in front of you - you didn't even hear that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My impression that took place after I gave the order?

MR PRETORIUS: After or before you gave the order.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: After I gave the order, that's my recollection of the events.

MR PRETORIUS: Your evidence in the inquest was - and that is what you said you stand by now - is that that happened before you gave the order.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Eddie Khumalo's gunfire after I gave the order.

MR PRETORIUS: The bullet that struck the window near your head, that happened before the order?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's my recollection.

MR PRETORIUS: Then we come back to it Mr Kruser that that means that you didn't even hear that rifle that was fired before you gave the order?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I can just reiterate, I can only tell this Committee what I recollect on that day.  The evidence now shows that it happened different and I accept that  - but I can only reiterate what I saw and recollect on that day, I can't come to another finding, that's what I saw, my legal attorney showed me the ballistics, explained it to me and I understand that my recollections isn't a true reflection of what happened on that day, I accept that but the only thing I can testify to is what I recollected on that day - I can't testify to anything else.  The evidence might prove differently and I accept that.

MR PRETORIUS: ...[inaudible] then that you accept in the first place now that no shots were fire by the crowd in the direction of the guards?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There was no gun, there was no evidence to prove that gunfire came to our direction, ja.

MR PRETORIUS: Secondly that you accept that the gunfire, or some of the gunfire you heard prior to you giving an order to shoot warning shots actually emanated from the ANC guards.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That possibility is there.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, not the possibility, the fact.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's there, the ballistic shows it, ja.

MR PRETORIUS: And I therefore put it to you that you had based on the shooting that you perceived that day is now factually proved - you had no reason to give an order to shoot because there was no shots fired at the ANC guards at that stage.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't agree with you.

MR PRETORIUS: Must I now take it that you still maintain that there were shots fired in your direction?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: What I say, what I say to the Committee and I say again, I testified in the inquest there was a combination of factors that gave me - that led me to take a decision to give an order to repel the attackers.  That is my recollection - I say again the ballistic evidence and the medical evidence suggests that it happened differently - I still maintain that's what I recollect and I accept that the medical evidence is different but I can't reconstruct another event, that's how I saw it, that's what I can testify to this Committee.

MR PRETORIUS: It then means that we must now evaluate your evidence that this crowd surged forward.  Exactly what do you mean by that, Mr Kruser?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I tried to say earlier, I took the combination of all those factors into account when I gave the order to shoot, I said after the warning shots the crowd surged forward, they moved at a much faster pace, the chanting became louder, gunfire intensified - that's what's the combination -that's what I meant by surging forward.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, even before you gave the order to fire warning shots, you testified that the crowd surged forward, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I testified the crowd started moving forward.  After the warning shots that the warning shot had the opposite effect of what I intended to do - it made the crowd move much faster and that's the evidence I gave.

MR PRETORIUS: So initially before the warning shots were fired they merely moved forward, it's only after the warning shots were fired that they then started moving faster, is that ...[intervention]?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My impression initially the crowd was standing and chanting at the corner with this war dance as was explained to me - they then started moving forward.  After the gunshot - the warning shots - they seemed to surge forward much faster and gunfire seemed to intensify at that state.  That's my evidence.

MR PRETORIUS: Did it happen practically simultaneously, the two facts that the gunfire intensified and the people started moving faster?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: We're talking in a matter of seconds, it's very -they just - we're talking about a matter of a few seconds and it's very difficult to put it all in different types of boxes - this is a combination of events which I saw happening it's very difficult to put them into every second - we're talking about split seconds here when these things happen, we're not talking about a long event.

MR PRETORIUS: Is it therefore a possibility that the gunfire intensified and immediately thereafter, the marchers started surging forward or moving fast forward?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think anything is possible, I can only say what my impression I gained on that day, anything is possible.  If there's facts that, I can accept that - but I can only tell you what I recollect on that day, I can't change my evidence.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, where did you perceive that gunfire that intensified came from?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My impression was from the back, at the back of the crowd at the corner of King George and - what's it - De Villiers Street - on the left side of the crowd, that's what I understood it to come.

MR PRETORIUS: You at that stage knew that there were ANC guards on the parapet standing right at the corner of King George and De Villiers Street?