Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

CHAIRPERSON: Yes who is kicking off.

MR TIPP: Thank you Chairperson I am. The next witness is the eighth applicant Mr Veli Llale.
	Chairperson the witness will be giving his evidence in English as far as he is able to. But he's asked me to ask the Committee that where he has problems if he may then give evidence in Zulu. He'll indicate when he is having problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you very much. Are you prepared to take the oath.

MOSES VELI LLALE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR TIPP: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Llale you are the eighth applicant for amnesty in these proceedings and is it correct that your application runs from page 102 to 108 of bundle C1, together with an affidavit that you deposed to for the purposes of the inquest proceedings which is annexed to your application at pages 109 to 112. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that is correct.

MR TIPP: You've also deposed to a supplementary affidavit which is part of your application for amnesty at pages 112A to 112C of bundle C2. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes correct.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale do you confirm that the contents of your application is the affidavit which is annexed to it and your supplementary affidavit are true and correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I do.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale I am just going to lead you briefly on your personal history. Is it correct that you were born in July of 1965 in Soweto and that you went to school in Soweto?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR TIPP: Can you tell the Committee briefly where you were at the time of the uprising in June 1976?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I was twelve years old and at time I was at Toreng Primary School which is situated in Orlando West not far from where there was a meeting which was held on the 16th of June.

MR TIPP: Is it correct that you experienced the shooting of the police during the uprisings in June '76?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Actually it was not a shooting of a policeman but as we were told to leave the school because now it seemed outside it was very bad we couldn't continue with reading because there was a teargas when we were running away from school to home we heard shootings that apparently Hector Petersen was not far from me. I saw him when he fell down. We turned back and we run away. But as far as I remember well I left Hector Petersen there and we left.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale when you answer my questions could you speak rather to the Committee instead of to me?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Okay, Sir.

MR TIPP: In 1985 when you were in standard seven and you joined Cosas. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes it's correct.

MR TIPP: Cosas was then banned and Soyco was then formed. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that's correct.

MR TIPP: Can you tell the Committee when it was that you joined the underground structures of MK?

MOSES VELI LLALE: It was in 1996 after the state of emergency was imposed and all the political parties then were banned so and I was recruited to the underground structure. I worked there as a courier and as a person who deals with safe houses.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Llale you said 1996, you mean 1986?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I might have made a mistake maybe I wanted to say 1986.

MR TIPP: At the time that you joined the underground structures of MK were you still at school?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I was still attending school then.

MR TIPP: In 1987 you were detained. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR TIPP: For how long were you detained and where?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I stayed under Section 29 of the Internal Security Act I was detained in John Vorster Square I stayed there a year that means from 1987 to 1988 in June.

MR TIPP: And then in 1988 you were sentenced to seven years imprisonment which you started serving at the Johannesburg prison. Am I right?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes you are right.

MR TIPP: You didn't serve seven years because you were released in 1990. Correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that is correct.

MR TIPP: Now after your release what did you do?

MOSES VELI LLALE: After I was released it was not long ago when Mr Sisulu and the others were released and it was then that after the IFP was also formed I am not meaning the old one I mean the party itself, the Freedom Party, then there was the uprisings and then one of their leaders which was Mr Motswalede his house was attacked because it was not far from the Umhlope hostel. And then I was recruited to go and guard his house in Umhlope.

MR TIPP: One of the leaders of the ANC ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry name of the person whose house you were guarding, who was he?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Mr Motswalede.

CHAIRPERSON: Motswalede?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What position did you occupy within the ANC?

MOSES VELI LLALE: When he was in Shell House he was in organising but he was with Mr Sisulu and others but in the ANC he was an organiser.

MR TIPP: At that stage what department of the ANC were you working in?

MOSES VELI LLALE: As it was called then it was called Ned but later it became DIS which is Department of Intelligence and Security.

MR TIPP: As a person employed in the Department of Intelligence and Security you were then deployed to guard Mr Motswalede's house. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes it's correct.

MR TIPP: Where were Mr Motswalede's house situated?

MOSES VELI LLALE: It was, I think, a kilometre away from the hostel and some metres away from Umhlope station.

MR TIPP: Is that the Mzimhlope hostel that you are referring to?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes at first I said it was about a kilometre away from the Mzimhlope hostel and metres away from Mzimhlope station.

MR TIPP: What did you witness, briefly, if you could tell the Committee whilst you were guarding Mr Motswalede's house?

MOSES VELI LLALE: At one stage I won't remember date and month but what I recollect is at one time they were coming from the rally and they came by train as they were moving from the station to the hostel they were attacking houses killing people on their way to the Umzimhlope hostel.

MR TIPP: Who is the they that you're referring?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The IFP people.

MR TIPP: Did you actually witness this, these attacks with your own eyes?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I did witness.

MR TIPP: What - did you witness the after effects of these attacks as well?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes because on those houses you will see small children will be killed, women couldn't run away from the attack were killed and old people so I did see some of that things which was done.

MR TIPP: Did you see how these people and young children had been killed?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes, others will be shot, others will be stabbed it will depend on the type of attack. Because others will be using pangas, kierries all assortment of weapons but wherever they've passed we will only see disaster.

MR TIPP: Now was this one incident that you observed or did you observe a number of incidents over a period of time?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I would say every time there was an IFP rally in the area these type of attacks will occur. They used to have rallies almost every week, if not every month.

MR TIPP: For how long were you in this position where you were witnessing these things and guarding Mr Motswalede's house?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I worked at Mr Motswalede for only a year.

MR TIPP: And thereafter what did you do?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I was told to come and work at Shell House.

MR TIPP: Now in March 1994 you were still working for the ANC in the Department of Intelligence and Security. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes it's correct.

MR TIPP: In March 1994 is it correct that you were - well let me ask you, what work were you doing in March 1994?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I was a bodyguard and a driver for Mr Joe Nhlanhla who was the head of the security there. Mr Joe Nhlanhla.

MR TIPP: Then finally to bring things up to date where are you presently employed?