Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever talk to anyone who was senior and hazard an opinion?  Because I see now it possibly was a question where you would be hazarding an opinion, did you, what I'm trying to say is, here was a situation where a tape, let's look at it being overtaped at the moment, where there was talk of it being overtaped and it happens to be the tape which was from ZUR with which you were associated and especially around the days, I mean the date in question.
 Did you do anything in order for that sort of speculation to be dispelled by saying why don't you offer the tape and say here is the tape and let the Margo Commission have the tape so that we can get this particular point out of the way?

VERNON NADEL: Mr Commissioner as I said, at the time I was obviously too junior to be involved with that type of thing.  If the tape was in anybody's possession I believe somebody should have given it or handed it in to the enquiry, the Board of enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Klatzow.

DR KLATZOW: And yet that never happened?

VERNON NADEL: I understand not.

DR KLATZOW: Nobody ever went to Margo and said, here is the tape that was overtaped?

VERNON NADEL: I believe that what you're saying is correct.

DR KLATZOW: And if that is the case then we can safely assume that the tape was not overtaped?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.  As I say there was a lot of speculation.

DR KLATZOW: At the time of the Margo enquiry that speculation was rife?

VERNON NADEL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: The most sinister interpretation possible had been placed on that tape?  In fact it was rumoured at the time, it was said at the time that there was a conversation between ZUR and Captain Uys claiming to know something about the cargo and demanding permission to land?

VERNON NADEL: Not on my shift, no.

DR KLATZOW: Just listen to me.  And listen to the question.  The question was, at the time of the Margo enquiry which you were involved in, you knew about that rumour?

VERNON NADEL: There were a lot of rumours that were rife at the time.

DR KLATZOW: Did you know about that rumour?

VERNON NADEL: There was a rumour that there was somebody in ZUR that was speaking to the aircraft, telling the aircraft they could not divert.

DR KLATZOW: And that rumour has the most sinister implication possible for the airline?

VERNON NADEL: Absolutely.

DR KLATZOW: Did you ever seek to attempt to dispel this by taking the tape or did anybody to your knowledge take the tape that had been overtaped and show it to the Margo Commission and say I'm sorry, we made a mistake?

VERNON NADEL: I'm not aware of that if it was.

DR KLATZOW: So we can safely assume that there is no record of in your knowledge or in the Margo Commission of that event having occurred?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Well I'm telling you that if you think that it's in the Margo Commission I will advise you to look at the Margo Commission and tell me where it is but I would suggest to you that it is not in the Margo Commission.

VERNON NADEL: No, I believe what you're saying.

DR KLATZOW: And therefore we can safely assume that the one thing that didn't happen to the tape was that it didn't get overtaped inadvertently?

VERNON NADEL: We can assume that then.

DR KLATZOW: Right.  The second thing we've have established is that the tape didn't just walk out of there on it's own.  Somebody must have taken it out?

VERNON NADEL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Do you remember Captain Jimmy Deel coming in and taking the tape out?

VERNON NADEL: No.

DR KLATZOW: When did you go off duty?

VERNON NADEL: When did I go off duty?

DR KLATZOW: Yes.

VERNON NADEL: My official shift ended at 8 in the morning.  Due to the situation I believe I left at 10.00, 10.30, 11 o'clock.

DR KLATZOW: Before you left that day, that tape had been taken out of ZUR.

VERNON NADEL: I'm not aware of that.

DR KLATZOW: Who else was in the operations centre that night?

VERNON NADEL: Is this after the, after the

DR KLATZOW: After the notification of the accident?

VERNON NADEL: I initiated an emergency call list.  There could have been any thing or any amount from 20 to 40 people.

DR KLATZOW: Was Captain Mickey Mitchell there?

VERNON NADEL: I believe he came later.

DR KLATZOW: What time?  And would you identify the document that you're reading from please?

VERNON NADEL: I have in front of me a copy which I believe Civil Aviation has as well of the South African Airways Emergency Alarm Procedure.  It's a list of names, if an emergency is declared we will go through the list, call the people.

DR KLATZOW: Who did you call that night?

VERNON NADEL: I'll start on the first page, not necessarily in the order that it was done, spoken to.  Captain Deon Storm, Mr F Van Zyl Smit, Captain Mickey Mitchell and I can give you the time I actually called him, at 0040.

DR KLATZOW: No, don't give us that.  What I would like you to do is make us a copy of that please.

VERNON NADEL: Certainly.

DR KLATZOW: But just read the names out.

VERNON NADEL: So Captain Mitchell was called at 0040, I called Captain Dries, I called Mr Davidson, Mr Britz, Mr Kate, Mr Willemse, Mr Botha, Mr Verster, Mr Roux ...[inaudible], Dr Van Der Spuy, Mr Klaase.

DR KLATZOW: What time did you call Mr Willemse?

VERNON NADEL: Mr Willemse was called at 0109.

DR KLATZOW: That's Tienie Willemse?

VERNON NADEL: Tienie Willemse, yes.

DR KLATZOW: What did you want him to do and what did he do?

VERNON NADEL: Well I notified everybody on this list and the normal procedure was they would either decide whether they wanted to come out to operations, go to airways head office.

DR KLATZOW: Did Tienie Willemse come to operations?

VERNON NADEL: I believe he would have yes.

DR KLATZOW: Was he there that night?

VERNON NADEL: I seem to think so yes.

DR KLATZOW: Do you remember seeing him there?

VERNON NADEL: I can't recall offhand, no.

DR KLATZOW: But it would be the likely thing for him to do?  Did Mickey Mitchell get there that night?

VERNON NADEL: Yes, I believe Mickey Mitchell was there.

DR KLATZOW: What time?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know what time he was, I only have the time I called him.

DR KLATZOW: But do you think that having been declared an emergency and having been told that there was a potential for an aircraft missing, do you think he would have dawdled his way to the airport?

VERNON NADEL: No, not at all.

DR KLATZOW: So he would have been there shortly after you notified him, which was just after 12 o'clock, or just before 12 o'clock?

VERNON NADEL: Yes, and let me just point out this is GMT time.

DR KLATZOW: Yes.  But tell us in South African time to avoid confusion.

VERNON NADEL: Captain Mitchell would have been at 2.40 in the morning.

DR KLATZOW: In the morning, local time.  Did you phone Gert Van Der Veer?

VERNON NADEL: I believe Mr Van Der Veer was called at 3 o'clock.

DR KLATZOW: What time was Mr Viv Lewis called?

VERNON NADEL: May I also just point out the name, Mr Van Der Veer wasn't called by me.  He was called by somebody else.  I believe Mr Lewis was paged on his pager at 2.40.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.

VERNON NADEL: He wasn't spoken to directly.

DR KLATZOW: No, but he would have come in immediately?

VERNON NADEL: If not to flight ops, he would have gone to the engineering department.

DR KLATZOW: Now, in your statement that you made to Nils Van Wyk, you said that Mickey Mitchell was present?

VERNON NADEL: Could well have been, yes.

DR KLATZOW: And you also recalled that Jimmy Deal was there?

VERNON NADEL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Not only did you recall that Jimmy Deal was there, you recalled that Tienie Willemse was there?

VERNON NADEL: Correct.

DR KLATZOW: And in addition to Tienie Willemse you made the statement that the last person to have contact with that tape was a man by the name of Connie Booysen?

VERNON NADEL: Yes, Connie Booysen was the assistant manager of flight ops responsible for the radio station.