Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-11

DR BORAINE: The final question that I have, chairperson is also a rather large one,  but you could perhaps refer me to any statement that you made in the past, and that is that one of the most (unclear) systems operating in South Africa and in business, was the migrant labour system.  Which was both supported in large measure not only by the mining industry in its earliest days, and for a very long time, but also by governments and successive governments, but also by other business' who had the hostel system and brought people in, as units of labour, for a very long period of time and I think you know, without me enlarging on it, the very very bad consequences of migrant labour in terms of family life and social deterioration.  Amounting, in my book at least to a gross human rights violations.  What was the attitude of previous groupings and now SACCOB towards migrant labour?

SACCOB SPEAKER: Like you, we're just looking for the statement Dr Boraine, it is here among our papers.  I will say just while Mr Middleman is looking up the reference that certainly over the thirty four year period and prior to that, it was covered in the submissions to government, in one way or another.  And in fact, my recollection is, just looking very quickly again through the resolutions, is that it in fact came up more than once and it came up in a combined set of ways, whether approaching from a housing point of view, or a social point of view etcetera.  I think it was covered on more than one occasion.  But perhaps Mr Middleman has found the exact reference.  If he can't,  perhaps we can come back to it.

MR MIDDLEMAN: I think I can say categorically that ASACOM was totally against the migrant labour and has many resolutions and in the interviews with ministers, where we categorically, (unclear).

SACCOB SPEAKER: Just the fact that it was never the less practised by many business', and the members

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Yes, say yes, into the microphone so that.

SACCOB SPEAKER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes, Russell.  Actually what I'm trying to do is to ensure that we ensure that we round off SACCOB and the president that wants to make a statement at the end of this.

UNKNOWN: (unclear) we have looked through all the resolutions and there are a lot of resolutions around various aspects of apartheid.  But the fundamental issue of apartheid, I don't see it titled anywhere, until very late in the day, and that is one person one vote.  Why was that the case?  The opposition to one man one vote for a very long time?

MR MIDDLEMAN: I don't think that one can say at all that there was an opposition in ASACOM as an organisation, we're talking as an organisation.  I don't think ASACOM as, at the time that I was there for many years, ever tackled directly political issues in that sense.  One mustn't forget that again in 1960, Verwoerd was going to open our congress; '61 congress; we had always the prime ministers opening congress', and he said,
"You, in your statement" the 1960 statement, "you double in politics and I will not open your congress"
and he withdrew.  We were up against this kind of thing.

<UNKNOWN>: You were lucky.

MR MIDDLEMAN: Yes, sure we were lucky compared to other people.

CHAIRPERSON: That statement is not allowed.

UNKOWN SPEAKER: I'll withdraw it

MR MIDDLEMAN: But these were the realities of the situation.  The realities were that ASACOM had members who were members of the National Party, obviously.  There was no discussion on this sort of thing, that was outside the business sphere.  ASACOM was there to look after the business interests of business'.  And while the wider, since, we were all in our personal capacities busy, one way or the other, but ASACOM as business, certainly didn't take (unclear).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Dr Randera?

SACCOB SPEAKER: Sorry, your Grace if I may just respond to that, in 1985, I was 35 years of age and had become president of the Cape Town Chamber of Commerce and Industry.  Quotes were taken from my presidential report.  Of course, the vital issue which must now be tackled is the question of meaningful political rights for urban blacks.  Our chamber and ASACOM have both directed vigorous attention to the question of a common law  to South Africa through universal citizenship.  Secondly there must be a bill of rights protected even against government by the courts.  Thirdly, there must be full participation in the private enterprise economy for all South Africans, regardless of race, sex or creed.  And I have to point out that in those years, 1985, we received public abuse, death  threats, for such statements, it was before it had become fashionable.  And we are on record as having been opposed to any, in any way denying any South Africans universal franchise.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: Mr Koza and your delegation, I'm actually having a little bit of difficulty in terms of reconciling what you're saying and what we're getting acknowledgement for, from your group.  I agree with my colleague, Dr Ally, if we look; and I thank you for all those resolutions, it really does give us an insight.  Whether one takes your five point plan, in 1960 or the resolution that emerged from conferences right uptill 1983, 1984.  The impression that I come away with is that, it was really to maintain a structure and order that allowed white domination to remain. So you talk about native areas, you talk about allowing the upliftment of influx control, restricted influx control.  You talk about increasing education and training for black people.  But there isn't and its quite clear, regardless of what you're saying, in terms of your meeting with the ANC in 1960; there isn't anywhere the clear point being made that the organisation was against apartheid, it was therefore a 'one person one vote' system.  If I can just throw in my second question, related to what Dr Boraine said earlier on, which is the whole question of the national state security management system.  That whole period between, after the coming to power of PW Botha in 1978, there was this conference at Good Hope in 1979, another conference that took place in 1981 at the hotel itself; where total onslaught was discussed.  Now, some of your organisations were present that day, at both those conferences.  So were the organisations not buying into, at that particular time?  As Mr Roshalt himself said earlier on this morning, not that he actually believed in the policy of apartheid, but he believed in stability, he believed, he was against the idea of Russian economism.  So there were those two, there are some of these contradictions that we'd like to just actually clarify because, I want to actually go away from this hearing understanding what acknowledgement is taking place by your organisation, because there was a culture that prevailed in that period, and we can't take away from ourselves, that we were influenced by that culture, in one way or the other.