Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, your suggestion is eminently acceptable.  Thank you, we, and we do accept it.  May I just comment on what you have said.  First, we must not lose out of sight that based upon the evidence that is accepted by you here and reflected in a report, in a judgment in this particular case, there may be a Presidential pardon of those two persons sitting in jail without us going through the proper process of going through a Court of Law, etc.  So, there is that nagging problem in the background.  The other thing is, Mr Chairman, is, perhaps, I did not explain it properly enough or clearly enough, is that the interest which I was talking about is the interest of my clients in not being thought of as people who are not upholding the Law and who may be charged for defeating the ends of justice.  That is also an interest, but we accept your suggestion at the moment and we abide by that.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next between Mr Bode and Prof de Koker.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Chairman, if you will be so kind as to permit me to start.  The application of Major Mbatha raised a number of questions for us.  If you will permit us we will commence with a number of general questions and then proceed to the particular.
	Major Mbatha, you explained to the Committee that you acted as the Commander of Umkhonto we Sizwe in the Northern Cape.  I would like to clarify your position.  Can you please inform the Committee as to the people whom you reported to?  So, the people directly in charge of you and your actions.

LAURENS MBATHA: Is it regarding the incident of the 25?

PROF DE KOKER: Regarding your general position as Commander of Umkhonto we Sizwe in the Northern Cape, who did you report to directly?

LAURENS MBATHA: Directly to the Chief of Staff's office, that is military HQ.

PROF DE KOKER: If you could just clarify that, Chief of Staff's office, military head?

LAURENS MBATHA: Headquarters.

PROF DE KOKER: And the specific person that you reported to and took orders from?

LAURENS MBATHA: There the Chief of Staff was General, Lieutenant-General Spenyanda at this stage.

PROF DE KOKER: You are referring to the time 1992 to 1994?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you very much and the persons who you served ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt you.  I did not know the name, I did not hear the name of the person clearly.  Who?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, the Chief of Staff was Spenyanda.

PROF DE KOKER: You referred to a number of people who served under you, a limited number of people.  Can you name them for us?

LAURENS MBATHA: Within my command structure I, as Laurens Mbatha, was the Regional Commander.  My Regional Chief of Staff was the late Major Tebigo Matsiwane, my Regional Chief of Personnel was Mr Johnson Janga, my Regional Chief of Projects was Butemelo Mabilo and the Regional Commissar, Sylvester Modise.  Those were the people in my command structure.

PROF DE KOKER: No one else served in your command structure?

LAURENS MBATHA: Only those members that I have mentioned, because Johnson Janga replaced Thabo Morose who was initially our Regional Commissar, but because of the illness, that is a mental, actually, disturbance, sustained out of torture, he could not make it.  We had to bring in a member.  So, the member even at this stage is still undergoing medical treatment.

PROF DE KOKER: Where did Mr Smiles fit into your structure?

LAURENS MBATHA: Smiles, as a member, he was part of the unit that was in Kimberley.  It was, when I define it, a reinforced company.

PROF DE KOKER: How many members did this unit have?

LAURENS MBATHA: The unit, actually, had the strength of about 120 people.

PROF DE KOKER: You mentioned, Major, that you had your office in the regional headquarters of the ANC, if I understood you correctly.  What was your relationship with the civilian leadership structure?  Did you take any orders from them?

LAURENS MBATHA: They are my senior, seniors, in terms of my operational scope in the province.  It is part of my tasks to work hand-in-hand with them.

PROF DE KOKER: If I understand you correctly, you work hand-in-hand, but they were your seniors and you took instructions from them?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, it is true.

PROF DE KOKER: Were you ever nominated and elected to the civil leadership structures of the ANC or any of the related organisations?

LAURENS MBATHA: No, not with MK.  MK, actually, operated only as a command structure.

PROF DE KOKER: If I may ask you, in particular, Mr John Block, what was your relationship with him?

LAURENS MBATHA: John, as that time, was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League and as part of the broad leadership of the organisation, MK as the military wing.  Within the mass democratic movement, we had that relationship that we had, very strongly.  We would be called in, for instance, if members of the league would move from one point to another, they would request maybe a member of MK to be part of that vehicle, because of the situation by then.  That was the relationship that was existing.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you regard Mr Block as your senior or as your junior?

LAURENS MBATHA: As my senior.

PROF DE KOKER: Where did you obtain the hand grenade initially?

LAURENS MBATHA: The hand grenades came into my possession after the situation became very unstable, from my command structure, we convened a meeting of all the command members.  If could correct, actually, define the word correctly, was that we are too naked and we need, actually, to prepare ourselves for this coming eventuality.  So, the donation of those grenades, at this stage, came from Thabo Morose, who happened, at this stage, not to be mentally fit.

PROF DE KOKER: If you refer to the command members, I take it you are referring only to those in the Northern Cape?

LAURENS MBATHA: Thabo was then, was part of the command structure.

PROF DE KOKER: Do you know where Mr Morose obtained the grenades?

LAURENS MBATHA: At this stage he obtained them during the time when he was still operational.

PROF DE KOKER: Do you know when he obtained it?

LAURENS MBATHA: No.

PROF DE KOKER: Yet he was under your command?

LAURENS MBATHA: The command structure came into existence in 1992, but members that I am referring to, the operational scope of Umkhonto we Sizwe members, had been operational before that time.

PROF DE KOKER: How many hand grenades were there in your  possession?

LAURENS MBATHA: Altogether there were three.

PROF DE KOKER: What happened to the others?

LAURENS MBATHA: The other two were utilised, actually, for the support base based in the township.

PROF DE KOKER: Can you clarify that answer, please?

LAURENS MBATHA: The other two grenades were used for the military support base based right in Vergenoeg.

PROF DE KOKER: In what way were they used?

CHAIRPERSON: Were they used to commit of, other offenses?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: Can you clarify and explain those offenses and give dates?

CHAIRPERSON: You are not applying for amnesty in respect of those offenses are you?

MR TSHOLANKU: He is not applying for amnesty in respect of those ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: They are not before us, Mr de Koker.

PROF DE KOKER: I hear you, Mr Chairman.  What I am trying to find out, Major Mbatha himself referred this incident as the second.  Now, I am trying to find out what the first incident entailed.  If you rule that I am not allowed to question that, I will accept the ruling, but, unfortunately, it will leave a gap in the evidence which Mr, Major Mbatha himself raised.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it does not leave a gap.  We normally do not allow a cross-examination to deviate from the incident in which a person wants amnesty, then to go and deal with another incident for obvious reasons.