Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR RAMAWELE: I see.  Now you have now taken the decision now to arrest the people who were inside, you have surrounded the house and they are inside, was it dark outside?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chair.

MR RAMAWELE: Was it very dark, that you couldn't see?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, it was at nine, past ten to eleven.

MR RAMAWELE: And the light inside the house, was it on or was it off?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: The lights were on, but the globe seemed to be dark.

MR RAMAWELE: From outside, could you see inside, could you see people inside or were you not in a position to see any person from inside?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: There were closed curtains, I would not be in a position to see inside.

MR RAMAWELE: Did any of the police officers report to you prior to your surrounding the house, that the people inside the house had firearms?  In other words whether they were armed or not?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Nobody told us, we did not know anything.

MR RAMAWELE: So at that stage whilst you surrounded the house, you did not have information that the people inside were armed?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Those who were inside knew, but they did not tell me anything.

MR RAMAWELE: Now, yes, then what happened, you surrounded the house, it is dark, what happened?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I told Norma Shosha that we must arrest them, I said to her it would be appropriate those who were inside the house that we are arresting them, I do not recall who was outside and I gave an instruction in Zulu, I said "let us arrest them" and there was fire coming out of the house and we fired back.   Because there were two shacks next to each other, we decided to go to the kombi and we went to C R Swart and we started taking the statements about what happened in Chesterville.

MR RAMAWELE: You are saying, you said that now "let us arrest them" and at that time you said shots began to be fired from the inside?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ramawele, please just translate what the witness said.  I didn't hear what the witness said about a single shot?  What?  Did you translate that?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the Interpreter's microphone was not on, the Interpreters have requested Mr Radebe to repeat the response.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, thank you.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: When I said "let us arrest them", there was one fire coming from outside, from inside, we then returned fire.  I don't know whether it was our fire with their fire, but there was gunfire.

MR RAMAWELE: Was it just a single shot that you heard coming from the inside?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, the first time, yes, that is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: Was it a shanty dwelling or what was it wherein the shot came from?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It came through the window and the glasses were shattered.

MR RAMAWELE: Who was standing next to the window wherein the shot came from?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: There was no one, you would stand next to the window, but not in front of the window, because you would not know what would follow thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, when that first single shot rang out, were there some of your people still inside the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: They were outside Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: All of your people?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: If I recall well, yes.   It was dark, but if I recall well, they were all outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ramawele.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.   You say outside that window where in the shot came from, there was no police officer who was standing just next to that window, there was no person standing next to that window?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: There was no person in front of the window, but at the front and at the back, there were people.

MR RAMAWELE: And then all police officers returned fire?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: How many of you returned fire?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Myself, Solomon Monyoa, Sgt Aubrey Mogadi, Const Andries Seleka, Const Magagi, Const Chris Magopa and Female Const Shosha.

MR RAMAWELE: And each one of you fired more than once?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: After a shot had come out just once?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: And that is how you acted in self-defence?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is how I see it.

MR RAMAWELE: Now, after shooting, after shooting, did you immediately, did you ran away from the scene or what did you do?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We did not run away, we left.   The road was not well, so we drove, we left just okay, we went into the kombi and we drove off and we went to report to Sgt Nortje and we went to C R Swart the next day.  I think it was after a day or two we gave in our statements.

MR RAMAWELE: You did not rush away from the scene?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We did not rush away, I told you already that the road was not well, we were going to get an accident and there would be injuries.

MR RAMAWELE: You also did not run away from the scene?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We wanted to be as quick as possible, but we were very careful, we did not know if one of them had a handgrenade and threw it at us, we would all die, so everything was done quickly, but very carefully.

MR RAMAWELE: When you went away, was there any shot that was fired at you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not recall, I don't recall having heard that.

MR RAMAWELE: So you were also not chased out of that particular premises?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: Now why didn't you go into the house to inspect what happened?  You wanted those people and they shot at you, you shot back, they are not retaliating, why didn't you go back and check because you might find a survivor and he might be of importance to you because you want those people?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I want to repeat this Chairperson, and say it was possible for them to throw a handgrenade to us, so we had to leave because we were told that there is only one entrance into and one exit out of the area.  We knew exactly which route to follow, that is why we did not get into the house, we tried by all means.  We did not leave in a hush, no, we reported this.

MR RAMAWELE: Mr Radebe, please just understand my question, you have been an operator of Vlakplaas for a long time, and you are not a coward when it comes to the Security operations, you were not, were you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I am trying to respond.

MR RAMAWELE: Just listen to my question, my question to you is when you left, after the shooting, there were no retaliation from the inmates of the house, is that true?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: And you were never fired at?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: And you were not in a hurry to leave the place, you just went to your kombi and you went away?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.   We did not have bullets, we had used our magazines.  Had other people come to join in the fight, how were we going to protect ourselves?  We were supposed to leave then to go and report to our white seniors, there was a military camp and a police station.

MR RAMAWELE: Just confine yourself to what I am asking you, I am just asking you, when you left the scene, there was quietness, there was no retaliation, nothing, you went into the kombi, you went away, that is what I am asking you, not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: I am saying to you again that those people inside the house, you wanted them because they had to give certain information about Charles, you wanted them, not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: That is why I am asking you, these people shot at you, they are in the house, it is quiet, they are not retaliating, you are police officers, you've got your firearms, you are police officers, why didn't you get inside the house to check these people and abduct a survivor?