Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: After Kleintjie gave his signal of the approaching car I moved closer to the road trying to be inside the road, to stop it.  I started shooting and also other Comrades were also shooting at that stage, but the car managed to pass through us as it was, Kleintjie was not far away from us and it was speeding.  So it passed through us and we continued shooting it until it stopped and the occupants of the car managed to get out of it.  And as they were running to the direction of Herschel or Sterkspruit there was an approaching car to their direction and it stopped for them and it made a U-turn and they entered the car and they moved or ran to the direction of Herschel. I continued shooting with an R4 rifle until the car capsized to the bridge.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, can you continue until you find ...(intervention)

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: After that we continue our pursuit.  As we passed the bridge we saw these two occupants who were in the car, the driver of the car and this white lady and we chased those who managed to escape out of the car.  We managed to get one person and as I was behind the Comrades I, they left him  there lying on the road.  He was shot, and I also shot him.

MR LAX: How did you shoot him?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I shoot him with the rifle.  I was next to him and I ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Where did you shoot?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I blow his head.

MR LAX: Sorry?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I blow his head with an R4 rifle.

MR LAX: You actually put it up his neck here and shot him, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think it was in this part somewhere.

MR LAX: Sorry?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think it was somewhere here.

CHAIRPERSON: He's indicating the back of his head.  The driver was a black man, was he?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed, Mr Chairman.  "The other occu...." paragraph 11, Mr Chairman,
"The other occupants were not there, Scorpion saw them and gave a chase.  He shot one and I also shot him and the other one disappeared"
Can you tell the Committee how did this happen?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That's what I ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, he has already.  He's told us already.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: You know maybe he's got something more to add on that.  Is there anything you would like to add, Mr Dolo?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There is nothing to add.
MR MBANDAZAYO
"We stopped a Toyota bakkie which was driven by two women and we requested them to borrow us their car and we told them that we will drop it in Sterkspruit".
Can you tell the Committee how did you do that, requesting them to borrow them, to borrow you their car?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We were retreating to our area and we were using our foot, we were not having any car.  On our way as we are moving the road to Herschel we saw this approaching car and there was this scene, it appeared when there was this scene of the shooting of this person who was lying on the road.  So out of panic they reduced the speed of their car and then we managed to stop them and requested them to borrow them, borrow us, their car.  And they did borrow us their car.

MR LAX: Did you do anything else to try and make them stop?  How did you make them stop?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I went into the road and I used the hand to stop them.

CHAIRPERSON: Went into the road and did what?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: And I used a hand to stop the car.

MR LAX: Just for the record, you indicated that you held up your hand, as one would normally say "stop".

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: But, Mr Dolo, these people did not know you, did they?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, they don't know me.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, but how could they have allowed a stranger to borrow their car?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: As I say they appear when this scene was come to its, when after all this things has happened.  I'm sure they heard the shots on their way and as they were approaching us then there was this dead person in the road, and I take it maybe out of the situation as it was apparent to them they reduced the speed of the car, and it was easy for me to stop them.

ADV SANDI: Can I infer from what you have just said that these people were acting out of fear, with the utmost fear that prevailed?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Normally, as you understand it the occupants of the car were females, and I take it that in that situation, normally, they would be feeling some sort of, feeling threatened by the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you all have guns in your hands?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At the time I was talking to them I was having an R4.

CHAIRPERSON: Mm?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The time I was talking to them using my right hand ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was holding an R4 with the left hand.

CHAIRPERSON: And the others, what were they doing?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I did not notice them.

CHAIRPERSON: So you held them up at gun-point and took their vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: When you're holding a person at gun-point, I take it that you point a gun on them, and that's ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Or you hold your gun ready to use, as you did.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was not, I don't use a left hand to shoot.  I used my right hand to stop them so meaning I was not holding them at gun-point.

MR SIBANYONI: But you were talking to them with a dangerous weapon in your possession and you were wanting that they hand the car over to you.

MR LAX: You don't seriously want to suggest to us that the firearm did not play any role in them stopping?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, I didn't suggest that.  It may have played a role.

MR LAX: It probably played the biggest role because they knew that if they didn't stop they might get shot.  Isn't that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We were not going to shoot them.

MR LAX: But they didn't know that.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Out of them maybe, maybe, but they were having their minds.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say there were two of them?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Sorry, will you repeat again

CHAIRPERSON: You say there were two of them.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mm?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think there were two occupants.  The driver ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: From the statements we're given, we've been told there were four.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I'm not aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you dispute it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't dispute it.

CHAIRPERSON: So you took these four people out of their car and left them there where the body was?  Is that the position?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We took them out of the car, they after all came out of their car.

CHAIRPERSON: And you left them there with the body, well there more, there were three bodies there, weren't there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: How, what I say?

CHAIRPERSON: There were three bodies there, one lying on the road, and two in the ...(indistinct) had fallen off the road.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The other two, the one who were on the bridge, I take them to be a distance away from the one who was lying on the road.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I move to paragraph 12.
"When we were inside the car we noticed a white 4 X 4 driven by a white person.  It was in front of us, almost blocking our way.  I ordered Kleintjie to shoot it and it reversed.  We drove away and we saw the other white man hiking along the road.  I tried to run him down and he ran away. I decided to leave"
now just before I finish the paragraph, can you explain to the Committee how was this 4 X 4 almost blocking your way, before you ordered Kleintjie to shoot it and it reversed?