Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-03

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Whilst we were in prison, Randera and Khampepe arrived and they were telling us, informing us about the Truth Commission and they handed us booklets and I took them and gave them to my co-prisoners who were involved in this operation and advised them they should apply for amnesty.  That is when they told me that they are not politically affiliated to any organisation.
ADV. MOTATA: Did you subsequently inform them about your mission which they did not know when you assembled them for this repossession excursion?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No I never told them.
ADV. MOTATA: Even after the whole thing you did not tell them?  After the handing the booklet and inviting them to make applications you did not inform them that you had a mission other than what they thought?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I never did sir.
ADV. MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Advocate Motata.
	Mr Malefane you said that on that occasion that you spent about three years in Lesotho you underwent a number of crash courses.  Could you give us a little bit more detail, what were these crash courses about and who gave them to you?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I received crash courses in as far as the use of weapons was concerned and how to protect myself and what you should do when you see somebody having a bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever an APLA cadre?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I see from your application form, Mr Malefane, page 1 you applied for amnesty for murder, attempted murder, that I understand, the robbery, the possession of an unlicensed firearm and ammunition.  Now what firearm was that?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is AK47 and other revolvers.

CHAIRPERSON: So - we've got to know specifically what you're applying for, your applying for - are those the AK47's, I think you mentioned - sorry I've forgotten the numbers - you said that you had two AK47's, two revolvers and one pistol, that is the group that went to Stilfontein?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now are you applying for amnesty in respect of unlawful possession of all those weapons?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I take it those weapons were loaded, there was ammunition.  There must have been because you fired shots?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes they had ammunition, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So that's what you're applying for?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you convicted in respect of all those weapons?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one thing to clarify for me, you said that you spoke to Mr Mabena about getting money, he asked you for money and then you decided that you're now going to raise money for use for, in Transkei, for training in a task force.  You then say that you went to Chris Langa who is an MK cadre, he's not a APLA or PAC man.  Why would you approach somebody from MK for an APLA operation or a PAC operation, why not go to Mabena himself and say look, I've got an idea, we can hit the Stilfontein payroll, I need a unit to assist me and then arrange for a properly trained APLA unit?  After he was, you said yourself, an APLA man and he must have been an APLA man of some substance because he was now training task forces.  Why didn't you go back to him for the assistance, why go to somebody without - outside the movement?  Because, if I could just add, because if you kept it within APLA ranks, you know if you've got a unit to assist you then the reward the APLA would have got, the benefit APLA would have got from the operation would have been a hundred percent because they would have all been APLA people involved.  The way you did it, you were twelve and a half percent, one eighth?  So one, why did you not approach APLA to assist you and two, wouldn't that have been more beneficial all round?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That would help us if I would ask APLA to help us but I was not supposed to ask Mabena because he had his own job to do, I also had my own job so I decided to approach Chris Langa because he also asked me for some assistance.  I used to assist him that is why I went to him for an assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you charged and convicted of these offences?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what term of imprisonment did you receive?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I was given two death sentences and thirty two years imprisonment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairperson, just two as a follow up.
	These weapons, the AK47 and the revolver, where did you get them from?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: They were delivered by David Nene.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: David Nene.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I said to you that Eric Williams is a person who prepared and gave you the AK47's what would you say?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I will disagree with you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You disagree, right.  Did everybody who was involved in this operation know that the money was going to be shared amongst yourselves?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes they did, sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Alright.  If I say that one of those persons in that group, in the operation, was informed that the money was going to be given to the organisation, what would you say?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I don't know about that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I further say to you that one of the members was involved in the operation was told and he knew that the money was to be given to a certain person, one man was going to be given all the money, what would you say to that?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: It's the first time that I hear that from you, I know nothing about that, but there might be that possibility because Chris Langa is the only person who knew these people, it must have well be the person who told them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was Chris not involved the planning, discussions and all?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No he was not involved.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you said Chris Langa also asked for assistance from you and you did assist him.  With what did you assist him, Chris Langa?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I leant him my car when he was going to Lesotho.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that all what you did for him?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I also gave him some financial help.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you ever give him any assistance in any operation which he was to carry out?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I did.  I gave him assistance when we went together to go and collect the guns.  We were to deliver them in Soweto.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: To ANC or to PAC?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: They were to be delivered at a certain house in Soweto.  He just said to me I must accompany him so we went to collect those guns.  I didn't know whether they were going to be used by PAC or ANC.  We just went there to go and collect and deliver the guns.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malefane, that concludes your evidence.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I've got only one witness but he is only going to testify as far as Mabena is concerned, not involving operation, but who was Mabena.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm not going to restrict you on who you can call and not.  If you want to call a witness you can do so on whatever aspect, it's up to you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I call Shakespeare Buthelezi, just on the question of Mabena, Mr Chairperson.

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Buthelezi, is it correct that you were a former cadre of APLA?