Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: Because I have not been present at the hearing where the applicants were charged, but my instructions are, and Mr Strydom will raise this with you in detail, but I just have to make the point at this stage, it's not true, there is no evidence that anybody was killed by an AK47.  The post-mortems will bear that out.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say, but I am saying that there were AK47s as well as pistols.  It is not true that people did not use AK47s during the night of the  attack.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is that according to the post-mortem conducted on the bodies of the deceased, there is no evidence that anyone of them had died of a gunshot wound fired from an AK47.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that, but people used AK47s.

MR LOWIES: Now what I want to put to you, Sir, is again ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

MR LOWIES: What I would like to put to you again is the following;  you are not telling the truth.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am telling the truth.

MR LOWIES: Now when did you see Themba Khosa for the first time after the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.  He came to KwaMadala several times.  He used to come to KwaMadala, but I cannot say exactly when.  I know Themba Khosa.  Even if the can take me to a parade I can point him out from the rest of the people.

MR LOWIES: Yes, but my point is - and you must listen to the question, when did you see Themba Khosa for the first time after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember, but he did come to the hostel.  I also saw him at Ulundi, but I cannot recall exactly when that was.  I did see him after the meeting at KwaMadala Hostel.

MR LOWIES: I didn't catch the interpretation.  Sorry, Chairman.  Could it just be repeated.

MR LAX: He said he did see Themba Khosa after the meeting at KwaMadala Hostel.  That is what he said.

MR LOWIES: Thank you.
	What meeting are you referring to?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was a meeting of the residents of the hostel, and I saw him at Ulundi as well.

MR LOWIES: Now when was this meeting, the very same day, the next day, two days thereafter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall.

MR LOWIES: Can you read?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I'm uneducated.

MR LOWIES: With your permission, Chair, may I just get a second?  I just want to consult with my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: I'm indebted to you, Chairman.
	Now is it not so that Mr Khosa only arrived a day or two after, I think it's on the 18th, the Boipatong incident, and he was in the company of the police?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that.  What I know is that Themba Khosa arrived at the hostel to collect the firearms that had been used in the Boipatong attack.  It is possible that he might have arrived with the police.  What I do remember is that he came to the hostel on the 18th, to collect those firearms that had been used in the attack.

MR LOWIES: Now was Khosa an Induna at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Which Khosa?

MR LOWIES: Themba Khosa.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was not an Induna.

MR LOWIES: According to you, who was in charge of the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, there were Indunas there, because when we entered Boipatong we divided ourselves according to various streets in the area.  I only can refer you to the people I was with, people in my group.  I can only tell you about what happened in what I was involved in.

MR LOWIES: No, but listen to the question.  According to you, who was in charge of the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say, there were many Indunas.  In my group Gatchene was the leader.  I cannot specify just one person because there were many people in charge, and those leaders were in charge of separate groups who went into different streets in Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: We've heard, just before the lunch adjournment, that Vanana Zulu was not seen by you at all on the 17th, the day of the attack, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You did ask me a question with regards to that and I responded that I did not see him at the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that at the meeting on the 17th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I did not see him because there were many Indunas there.  There were people like Gatchene present, so I cannot say that I saw him.

MR LOWIES: Did you see him at all on the 17th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not see him.

MR LOWIES: Because your statement says that the people who were in charge of the attack were Mtwana and Gatchene.  That's not correct, the Mtwana part is not correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that part is inaccurate.  I said there were Indunas who were responsible for leading the attack, but in my group it was Gatchene who was the leader.

MR LOWIES: And Mtwana is Prince Vanana Zulu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know him by the name of Mtwana Zulu.

MR LOWIES: And there's no other Mtwana that you know?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, I know him by the name of Mtwana and there's no other person I know of that name.

MR LOWIES: How many times in your life - sorry, I retract that question.  Did you ever see Mr Themba Khosa in possession of firearms, of any nature?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I stated before, Themba Khosa came to collect the firearms that had been used in the attack.  He was in his Sprinter.  I did see him inside the hostel where he told the hostel dwellers that they should burn the property that had been looted from the Boipatong attack.

MR LOWIES: Did you see him in possession of firearms at any other stage in your life?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said, he came to collect firearms that had been used in the attack, so he did have firearms in his vehicle.

MR LOWIES: Besides this incident, that's my question.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know.  I only know him to have carried weapons, with reference to the Boipatong  attack.

MR LOWIES: And the carrying of the weapons was actually when he collected it, not when he delivered it, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: You see the reason why I'm asking this is, in your statement it says
"Themba Khosa was an Induna at our hostel"
We know that you disagree with that portion.
"He also attended meetings briefings and debriefings"
And then:
"He also delivered guns to the hostel on a regular basis, using his Sprinter"
This according to you is completely incorrect.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  I only said he came to collect the firearms in his Sprinter.  What I said was that he came to collect the firearms that had been used in the Boipatong attack.

MR LOWIES: And it's not true that he also delivered guns to the hostel on a regular basis, using his Sprinter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Now in the drive-by shooting for which you were convicted, how many accomplices did you have?  How many people were involved with this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were five of us.

MR LOWIES: Yes, who were they?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There was Zwee.

MR LOWIES: Yes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Ntlantla.

MR LOWIES: Ntlantla.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Hunter Ndlovo.

MR LOWIES: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Victor Kheswa.

MR LOWIES: Also known as Ketisi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's the one, and myself.

MR LOWIES: Is Ntlantla Xinde or not, is his surname Xinde?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Who is Michael Ramakau?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He is somebody from Everton.

MR LOWIES: Was he involved in a drive-by shooting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I made that mistake.  There were five of us and one person was driving the car, he was not involved in the actual shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you made a mistake?