Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

MR SIGUDU: Yes, I am implicated in this whole thing because I participated in the plan and we planned, although we did not intend to kill, that was not our primary intention, to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen to my question.  It is a very important question for your case.  You tell me you can't answer the question as to what you thought was going to happen with those guns because you were not in possession of a firearm at the time.  I am asking you, did you associate yourself with the eventual killing of that lady or not?

MR SIGUDU: The way this whole thing is, I ...(indistinct) me the fact that I am implicated because I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Listen to me.  I am not asking you to make any admissions if you don't feel like making it, all I am asking is, when that lady was shot there, did you intend her to die, do you associate yourself with her killing or not?

MR SIGUDU: The killing, the act of killing, was not discussed but because the person was eventually killed, I am implicated in that and although we did not plan this killing, but now that it happened I associate myself with it.

CHAIRPERSON: You intended that she died?

MR SIGUDU: As for me that was not my intention, that the person or the victim should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) easier, because you are making my position very difficult.  Did you agree with her killing?

MR SIGUDU: That was never there, the killing, the act of killing was never discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: After she was shot, did you agree that it was correct that she was shot?

MR SIGUDU: This is how I will explain.  This is why I am here, but now that it has happened it does not mean that this was planned initially.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sigudu, ...(intervention)

DR TSOTSI: When you saw your associates carrying guns to go and rob, did it occur to you that they might use these guns to shoot the lady?

MR SIGUDU: I don't think I had any idea of that, that they would kill or end up killing or shooting, I had no idea of that.

DR TSOTSI: Why were they carrying firearms as far as you were concerned, if not to shoot with them?

MR SIGUDU: This is why I said earlier on that I will, or rather I am not in a position to answer competently this question because I had no firearm in my possession and they had firearms.

DR TSOTSI: Did you raise any objections to the use of the firearms?

MR SIGUDU: I had no objection when they used the firearm.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Mr Sigudu, when was this plan hatched, was it hatched on that same day of the killing or did you discuss it the previous day or two days before?

MR SIGUDU: This thing was planned on the 30th the way we planned it.

UNKNOWN: 30th of November?

MR SIGUDU: Not November, no, I think it was on the 30th although I don't quite remember as to which month it was, November or October, around there.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but the murder took place on the 3rd of December according to the indictment that I have here.

MR SIGUDU: You mean it took place on the 30th?

CHAIRPERSON: Look, when you discussed this issue of robbing this woman, did the discussion take place on the same day she died or on another day?

MR SIGUDU: It took a number of days before the action itself took place.

UNKNOWN: Approximately how many days before?

MR SIGUDU: I don't think that it would have taken 10 days, I think it was about 3,4 or 5 days, around there.

UNKNOWN: Okay, so I take it that this was a very carefully planned robbery, was it?  It was well planned, it was not something that just happened in one day, it was something that was planned over a number of days?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, it was planned but not for long days, many days.

UNKNOWN: Okay, I'll leave that, but then do you know where your co-applicants got the guns from?

MR SIGUDU: As far as that is concerned, I bear no knowledge.

UNKNOWN: So when did you first see the guns?

MR SIGUDU: I first saw the gun with Wise ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Yes, when, was it on the day of the murder or was it on the day before the murder?

MR SIGUDU: Days prior to this day in question.

UNKNOWN: Did he say what he was going to do with the gun?

MR SIGUDU: As a person who brought this to our attention and these guns as well, the way this whole thing happened, they were not presented as part of the plan to be used to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete have you got any more questions?

MS THABETE: Yes, Mr Chair, I do.
   Mr Sigudu, did the deceased have a bag of money with her or did she carry the bag of money with her?

MR SIGUDU: There were bags of money.

MS THABETE: Sorry, I didn't hear your answer.

CHAIRPERSON: There were bags of money.

MR SIGUDU: There were two bags of money.

MS THABETE: In your statement on page 5 you say
"Mvelase and Mzolo grabbed at the bags of money and ran away"
And then further on, on page 23, in your letter on number 1 you say:
"No money was taken from the deceased because we were arrested at the scene of the crime. "
Can you clarify whether you did take the money or you didn't?

MR SIGUDU: What I will explain is the money yes, was taken yes, but immediately on the scene of the crime we heard a sound of an alarm and suddenly the police appeared and started shooting at us and the money remained there, or was left there.

MS THABETE: So it would be correct for me to say that what you wrote on page 23 is not true in the sense that you did take the money but when you were being shot, you left it at the scene and ran away?  Would that be correct for me to say so?

MR SIGUDU: Yes.

MS THABETE: You have indicated in your application that you wanted to rob because you wanted to buy arms, to purchase arms for the IFP, is that correct?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: According to your plan, who was going to purchase the arms for the IFP?

MR SIGUDU: Wiseman would have been the one, Wiseman Kanyele.

MS THABETE: I don't know whether I heard you correctly, are you saying according to your plan you were going to give the money to Wiseman Kanyele?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: So when you said that you were going to give the money to the IFP branch, that's not correct? Sorry, in page 5 you say "we intended to hand all the money to the IFP branch, you've just said now you were going to give the money to Wiseman Kanyele and my question is, does it mean then that it is not correct here that you were going to give the money to the IFP branch?

MR SIGUDU: I would not say that it was not true, we would have given the money to him and he would have been the one who will take the money to the branch of the IFP.

MS THABETE: I thought that you just testified that you  knew that it wasn't the policy of the IFP to rob to purchase firearms, how then would Wiseman have taken this money to the branch when it wasn't - sorry I haven't finished, when it wasn't their policy to rob people to purchase arms?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, it was not the policy of the organisation but because of the situation that brought this to the effect that money should be raised somehow, we should get hold of money and be able to purchase.

MS THABETE: I don't know whether you understand my question.  I don't think you are answering my question, but I will leave that aspect.  One more question from me.   Going back to the scene of the crime, when the deceased was shot, exactly where were you?

MR SIGUDU: I was present, I was there.

MS THABETE: Mr Sigudu, I am asking you this question because earlier on when I asked you a question as to why the victim was shot, you said you don't know because you didn't see anything, now you are saying that you were there.  So I would like to ask you again if you were there, why was she shot and how was she shot?  What happened, how did it come about that she was shot because according to your plan, you were going to take the bags of money, you were not going to kill her and you had no intentions to kill her.  How did it happen that she was shot?