Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR MKHATSA: Chairperson, Commissioners, just for the record I want the Commissioners to know that we faxed a copy of my statement yesterday already and I think this is quite correct because there are a lot people who are in possession of this statement already, so I really apologise that for some reason you haven't got a copy - this Government believes in efficiency I can assure you.
"Just for the record, I'm a Catholic Priest, a member of Parliament and the Deputy Minister of Education.  Chairperson, I've accepted your invitation to this hearing in the belief that my evidence will enhance the course of justice for all interested parties.
 In the '80's I was an active member of the United Democratic Front, the Civil Movement and most important of course, I was the Pastor of the Catholic Church Soshanguve.  In that capacity I interacted with organisations of young people, students, workers, cadres, religious leaders and a broad spectrum of political leadership in and around Pretoria and beyond it's borders.
 Most of my activities took place in Soshanguve, a Black township North West of Pretoria.  During January 1989, Reverend Mbangula of the Methodist Church communicated with me expressing his concern  that certain children had been removed from the mission house belonging to the Methodist Church at Orlando in Soweto.
 Reverend Mbangula requested me to accompany him and Bishop Manas Buthelezi to visit Mrs Mandela.  On Wednesday, 13th January 1989, we met Mrs Mandela at her home and enquired about the alleged removal of the children from the Methodist Mission Home.  Mrs Mandela informed me, Reverend Mbangula and Bishop Buthelezi that she had been advised that children were being abused at the mission home and that she had decided to take them into her home as protection.
 The visit ended with a prayer in which Mrs Mandela and her daughter Zinzi participated.  At the time of the visit none of the children were at Mrs Mandela's home.  I've no other knowledge at all of the matters referred in the Subpoena which had been served on me to appear before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission during the period 24th November to 28th November 1997"
I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Yes?

MR PIGOU: Doctor Motlana, I realise - and actually this is 2 or 3 as an opening sort of section, I realise that we will have some difficulty in remembering the sequence of events, so I'm going to try and probe some of these things because there's a little bit of confusion that I'm getting out of some of the statements here.
 Doctor Motlana, on the second page of your statement you refer to a request from Peter Storey - at the last paragraph, a request from Peter Storey regarding allegations that Mrs Madikizela Mandela had allegedly made against Paul Verryn, could you tell me - I believe we made available to you a copy of Peter Storey's memorandum?

MR MADLOPA: That statement has never been made to us actually, in fact if anything, we had sight of that statement only yesterday during these proceedings, so it's not correct and accurate that this statement has been made available to Doctor Motlana.

CHAIRPERSON: It was made available yesterday, that is what he's saying now let's find out whether there will be a problem.  You heard it yesterday and if in fact you are unable to answer the questions arising from it, your client is free to say that he can't answer but I would have thought that the things that were being dealt with there were almost common cause.
 I was going to say: "He's of age" - they say in the Bible, he's quite free to say: "No, I can't answer that question" or "I won't answer that question", so I would say go ahead.

MR PIGOU: Thank you Chair, I'm just trying to ascertain where this may fit in, in terms of the sequence of events.
 To return, you remember receiving a phone call from Peter Storey regarding allegations allegedly made against Paul Verryn, relating to sexual assault of certain minors and were requested to intervene with Mrs Madikizela Mandela in this regard.   I'd like to just refer you to page 10 of Peter Storey's memorandum and to the section of Sunday 29th of January where it talks about the Sunday Times headline in which: "Mrs Mandela links the Murder of Doctor Asvat" and the City Press carried: "Lurid Sex Emphasis".
 Underneath - the paragraph underneath, it says: "Peter Storey sets about convening Meeting with Key Community Leaders, speaks to Motlana who simply says: "She's lying", no Medical Evidence is possible" - "Motlana says he will see her right away to warn her of the consequences of her statements" - "(Peter Storey learns later that she refused to see him)".  
 Is this the same sequence in the bottom of page two of your statement?  Are you referring to a conversation that you had with Peter Storey about the allegations that had been made in the press at that stage?

TATO MOTLANA: This statement came to me yesterday as something of a surprise that I'd said simply: "She's lying" - no doctor would make such a statement.  If Mrs Mandela and the press had indeed made allegations about evidence of sexual abuse, I wouldn't go on a limb and say: "She's lying".
 I really regret that this kind of statement was made and if I had a chance I would have discussed it with the Reverend Peter Storey.  I don't ever recall saying Mrs Mandela is lying.

MR PIGOU: Do you recall whether the conversation is related to the statement that  you have made to the Commission now at the bottom of page two, when you say: "receiving a call", was it at the end of January after those newspapers articles came out on Sunday the 29th, two days after Doctor Asvat had been shot?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, my memory - again I'll plead age, is not as good as it should be but all I recall about that event is received a telephone call from Peter Storey and telling me about the concerns of the church over the allegations that they had heard.  And my intervention was specifically to try and stop further statements like that - full stop.

MR PIGOU: And could you tell us whether you did go and see Mrs Madikizela Mandela and speak with her particularly about these allegations?

TATO MOTLANA: I certainly did.  As I state here Mr Chairman, I went to see Mrs Mandela.

MR PIGOU: And what was the response that you had from her at that meeting?

TATO MOTLANA: I would say - by hindsight Mr Chairman, that it was very positive.  I think she appreciated the gravity of that kind of situation.  As I say, I said to her: "If indeed you have made such allegations, please desist because the church is about ...[indistinct] the Supreme Court is threatening to have an interdict to stop you from making all these statements.

MR PIGOU: I don't want to say when or when you didn't say those things to Mrs Madikizela Mandela but if we presume that this would have been sometime in January of possibly early February 1989, are you aware that statements were made by Mrs Madikizela Mandela again making allegations against the church and against Reverend Paul Verryn on the 1st of February in an interview with the NBC and then again on the 21st of February in an interview with Hennie Serfontein?  Are you aware of those allegations?

TATO MOTLANA: No, I'm not aware Mr Chairman.  If I had seen those allegations, clearly my mission would have been a failure.  I had hoped that after that discussion, Mrs Mandela would in fact desist and I'm not aware that she made subsequent statements.