Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you and with respect, one knows that whenever your opponent produces a document and highlights one portion it is your absolute duty to look at the rest  ...(general laughter and clapping) - just in case that therein lies the truth.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Bizos you see I picked up somewhere, that that may be factually correct or not, but I picked up somewhere in the applicants' papers that the really new pages that have recently been introduced only about two weeks ago were about 66 pages, only 66 pages, 62 ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: It's incorrect.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is that incorrect?

GEORGE BIZOS: It's incorrect.  First of all if you look at 120 then you also get 120A, they did their arithmetic wrongly, and it's got lots of annexures to it.  So we are correct, with respect, in relation to the numbers, but preparing an important case such as this is not a question of number of pages with respect Judge, it's a question have they given us notice, and have they given us the information to properly prepare.
	And Judge may I respond to the question, assume that this was a civil case in the Supreme Court for just above the Magistrate's Court jurisdiction, and this batch of documents highlighted or otherwise was produced two weeks before the trial, would any Judge refuse the other side a postponement if those documents had not been disclosed?  I would submit that it would have been a res ipsa loquitur situation, the Judge would say well, please explain to me why these documents were not disclosed before?  And what would be the answer?  Well then the applicants may have an answer because they say that they sent it some time ago, but the question is not when did they send them, the question for us is when did we get them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The problem is Mr Bizos, why I am asking you this, I had assumed that their arithmetic was correct, but if it's incorrect it's something else, but it would have been relevant to my problem that if there are 600 pages and you received only 62 pages two weeks ago it would mean 500 and something you received in March, and to me that would make a difference.

GEORGE BIZOS: But in truth and in fact the number of pages that - and Mr Malindi with whom I have absolute faith, he has sifted the documents - could I give you the countdown.  The new material is 137 pages.

CHAIRPERSON: I would prefer you to tell us where in all this are the pages that you are referring to.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't been able to find out which - please.  Start off with Bundle A.

GEORGE BIZOS: First of all page 49, the document starting off ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What bundle is that Mr Bizos?

JUDGE WILSON: That's not Bundle A.

GEORGE BIZOS: B.

JUDGE WILSON: You were asked by my brother to do Bundle A first.

GEORGE BIZOS: Bundle B is the bundle which has the new, in the main has the new information.  It starts at 49 to 186.  Then there are 41 pages of the court record thereafter.  The judgement on sentence.  That is in our bundle immediately afterwards, immediately after 186 Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think Mr Bizos in the bundle that we are having the judgement on merit and sentence appears in Bundle A.

GEORGE BIZOS: It was not given to us.  Judgement on sentence was not given to us by the applicants and that may be an explanation, it was given to us by the Commission Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: It was something you could have obtained at any time if you wanted it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes we could have, yes.  (...indistinct) make in this application, they have to prepare a record and they have to put the relevant information before the Commission.  And then there are another 33 pages within that from 130A, I beg your pardon, from 120A to 139A.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware and do you know where these pages are that Mr Bizos is talking about, which of the volumes that we have been furnished with contain these documents?

JUDGE WILSON: Bundle B page 120A.

CHAIRPERSON: That's Bundle B.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman what Mr Bizos has referred to is contained in Bundle B Mr Chairman, and what he referred to later on as to the court judgement and all, that will appear in Bundle A.  I have heard George Bizos state that they have not received the pagination, but Mr Chairman I would like to put this on record that I personally included in the bundle that I gave to them on the 7th of June pages of my pagination and requesting them to paginate their bundles accordingly.  Now what he is referring to as judgements and all that will be Bundle A of our documents.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand also Mr Bizos 120A to 148A are not separate documents, it's merely some person, for reasons best known to themselves, suddenly started paginating 120 - 120A, 121 - 121A, 122 - 122A and so it went on.  The documents were all there, they were all part of the bundle, it's the pagination that has done that.

GEORGE BIZOS: (...indistinct) ...evidence before you Judge that we were given a bundle of documents two weeks ago at the airport because we did not have them, and those are the documents in Bundle B.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Bizos, is it your contention that the Addendum C in Bundle B was never given to you at any other time except on the 8th of June?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you were only able to go through that bundle in preparation of your opposition on the 14th?

GEORGE BIZOS: During that weekend, we worked the long weekend.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was the 8th on a weekend?

GEORGE BIZOS: We got them on Friday evening, Saturday, Sunday was - the Monday was the 16th, work it back.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I thought Mr Bizos you got the documents on the 8th of June?

GEORGE BIZOS: (...indistinct) (microphone is not switched on for the beginning of each reply) ...it is the 8th, it's on Friday.  Yes you are correct it was - Addendum C was the 8th of June, that was in terms of the - and the first opportunity that we had was that long weekend in order to study it after we got them on the 8th, which was the 14th to the 16th.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think if my memory serves me well with calendars the 8th of June was a Saturday and not a Friday.

GEORGE BIZOS: We got them sometime during the night...(general laughter) - the Friday night when Counsel came from Cape Town, that's what the affidavit says, but what - I submit that the day doesn't make any difference, but what I do say is this, that if our documents are in the state which appears, they appear to be, can you imagine Mr Chairperson what is going to happen having to cross-examine witnesses without being able to identify the documents properly and doing that in the manner in which one would do a trial in court.  It's not less important, if anything it's very much more important with respect that we should be given an opportunity to sort matters out.  I hope that our colleagues will cooperate in this regard and that we can have proper documentation placed before it, properly indexed and that we both have the same record right through.
	But above all the amending in a short document, amending the paragraph on page 21 that the late Chris Hani was killed as the senior commander of MK a prime military target ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where are you reading from?

GEORGE BIZOS: An amendment to page 21 that would probably be in your Bundle A because that is in their application.  If you have original page 5 of their application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Originally we had to meet a case - are you with me on the first paragraph?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.