Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to say according to you, forget if there was any confrontation, what happened when she appeared within ten to fifteen minutes?  Did she voluntarily enter the car?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Thank you, Chairperson.  She was not forced to enter.

MR VISSER: Did she have anything with her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: She had a bag.

MR VISSER: Do you know what was in the bag?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believe that there were some clothes inside.

MR VISSER: And where did you go then?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We returned to Ladybrand and then we proceeded to the farm where we were instructed to take her to.

MR VISSER: Have you been on this farm before, or is this the first time that you've been there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It was for the first time, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well.  What happened there, what happened with Betty Boom on the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We arrived at that farm, we disembarked, all of us, we entered a particular house.  That is where Betty, Antonie Jagga, Jantjie and Robertshaw entered a particular room, then I was at a separate room.

MR VISSER: Did you participate in any of the discussions with Betty Boom, concerning her recruitment or her information?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything else to do with her in any other way?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There as a time when I was together with her when these three people were doing other things.  So in other words, I was just guarding her.

MR VISSER: So you were guarding her and would you say that you were consistently guarding her, or what was the position?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was not guarding her at all times.  At the time when these three people I've mentioned were busy with something, then I would be requested to guard her at that time.

MR VISSER: Now we have heard that Betty Boom spent a certain period of time on the farm, would you be able to tell us what your recollection is of the length of time that she spent on the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I think it may be approximately four days.

MR VISSER: And did you see her on every one of those four days or were there some of those days that you were not present on the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I've already explained Chairperson, that at that time I was busy with the baptismal preparations, so therefore there would be days when I would be absent from the farm.

MR VISSER: Could you generally tell the Committee regarding the border control at the Maseru bridge, how was the control there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: At that time Chairperson, the control of the two borders was under our responsibilities, therefore there would not be a day where we would be stopped and requested to produce passports or identity documents.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean under your control?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I said the control at that time was lax, then at times we were not requested to produce passports.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	You did not intend to say that the border control was under your control?  That is not what you said?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was not stating that it was under our control, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Jagga explained to the Committee that one could obtain a border document, do you know anything about that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: He was not mentioning documents, he was speaking of a pass for six months without your passport being stamped.

MR VISSER: Very well.  And did you have such a pass?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I would testify that I still have that pass.

MR VISSER: You still have one like that today?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You don't have it here by any chance?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I think it's in my car, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Perhaps you could show it to the Committee later, just for interest's sake.

CHAIRPERSON: I would be interested in that, I would like to see that later.

MR VISSER: I only heard this morning that he in fact still has one.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm not sure what your arrangements is going to be as far as tea is concerned, I don't know whether you want to take the tea adjournment now.  I've got one more question about Betty Boom and then I am going on to Nomasonto.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just finish Betty Boom, then we'll take the tea adjournment thereafter.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	While Betty Boom was there on the farm, did you or any other person that you saw, ever assault her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Not according to my knowledge and not in my presence.  If a thing of that kind would happen you'd be able to see some signs of assault.  So there's not time during my presence where I saw a person assaulting her.

MR VISSER: Were her hands and feet bound, or was she chained in any way while she was held on the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, at the time when I was guarding her she was not chained.

MR VISSER: And why were you guarding her, what was the purpose behind that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I've already stated that I would be called to guard her at the particular time when these people were busy with something, then at a particular time they would come and take over.

MR VISSER: Just to prevent her escaping?

INTERPRETER: I didn't hear the question.

MR LAX: I was just trying to interpose and you obviously couldn't hear me.

MR VISSER: No, I didn't hear you, no, no.

MR LAX: The question was, why were you guarding her and you haven't answered that.  Why was it necessary to guard her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I was given instructions to guard her.

MR LAX: So you don't know why you were guarding her, you were just told to guard her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson, that was the culture, I was not given reasons why I should execute some instructions.  Like for example, I was just told to guard her, then I did.

MR LAX: And how did you guard her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would be with her in that particular room where she was.

MR LAX: So she wasn't allowed to leave that room, you made sure she stayed in that room all the time.  Is that what you're saying?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, she would be allowed to go out of that room if she goes to a washroom.

MR LAX: But was that the only time she was allowed out?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And why did you think you were guarding her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I thought that I had to guard her because of the instructions, so that she would be able to be available at the time when they need her.

MR LAX: Well did you think she might escape?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: If you think, Chairperson, of certain possibilities, if you tell me to guard a person or something, the first reason which would come to mind - I would give certain reasons, firstly I would think that that person would run away or other people would come and steal that person.  So during this incident I thought that they did not want Betty Boom to run away or to disappear.

MR SIBANYONI: While you're still on that, I'm sorry.
	How would it happen whenever you had to leave, were you supposed to ensure that somebody else takes over from you guarding her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: At all times when I'm supposed to leave, I've already explained to my legal counsel that I had particular duties to do, then I would request my seniors that I have to leave, then they would bring somebody to come and take my place in guarding her.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you guarding her only during the day or even at night?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: There was no time when I guarded her during the night.

MR LAX: Do you perhaps know where was she spending the night?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I did not know but I believed that she was staying in that farm.