Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR RICHARD: In the in camera hearing there was a suggestion that the football team was kept to the back, minded its own business, respected Mrs Mandela's privacy and the opposite was also true.  Have you any comment on that opposition?
 In the Section 29, in camera hearing the impression that I gained was that a picture was being painted in terms of which the football team and the people living at the property respected Mrs Mandela's privacy, did not interfere in her house, didn't enter into the house and by the same token, Mrs Mandela largely let the team and the people living there, alone and got on with her own business.  What comment do you have?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, what was your relationship with Mrs Mandela, was it you through which she spoke to the team or were there any other people who gave instructions?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, what political involvement did the team have at the time, was it part of the struggle or was it not part of the struggle, was it concerned only with football?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Did you ever become concerned with political issues as you say?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Sorry, I will try again.  Later on, after you had become involved as the football coach, did you become more and more involved in political activities?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right, now the next point that we go on to was the story of sell-outs, impimpi's and the like.  Did you have any involvement in such individuals or in their affairs?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: My question is along these lines.  In that particular environment and at those times, if somebody was pointed out as a sell-out, what would happen?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Who would get those instructions, the Disciplinary Committee or some other authority?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Right.  Thank you.  In April/May 1987 was there any change as a consequence of any instruction?  Was the football team altered in any way?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Very well.  Now, we will go onto the next point on the subpoena.  Do you know somebody by the name of Morgan Bambisa, also known as Buchu?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Do you know anything about his murder?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: And who are they?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, did you participate in any way in the killing or is this just in general information that you know from the township?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Did you participate in the act which resulted in his death, yes or no?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Were you there when he was killed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Thank you, we will go on to the next point.   The murder of Zola Makhula and one other during the year 1987, do you know anything about that?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: You have no knowledge, and I can pass to the next one?  Thank you.  Point (d), the murder of Susan Maripa in October 1987.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: No knowledge, thank you.    Then the abduction, torture and mutilation of the Makanda brothers some time during 1987?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: The next one the assault on Pumsile Dlamini some time during the year 1988?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: What do you know about it?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR RICHARD: Now, who assaulted her?  Just the names?

JERRY RICHARDSON: When I refer to Mandela United, I am talking about the people who used to reside in that yard.  They will not be forced to assault, they were willing to assault.
 I would apologise in this point, because you will find out that at times I don't know their real names, that is the boys.  There are very few that I knew their real names but Mandela United as the Club assaulted.

MR RICHARD: You say that you don't know the individual names of the perpetrators of the assaults, but you do say that the mere fact that you were told to take Ms Dlamini home by Mrs Mandela, was sufficient to make Ms Dlamini very, very scared.  Why would that be?

JERRY RICHARDSON: They knew each time I accompanied them, there would be trouble.  That is why she was so scared, but after assuring her that I won't do anything to her, she felt free and I really took her home and dropped her at her place and she opened her door and got inside her home.  I did nothing to her.

MR RICHARD: Now, for the purposes of in chief, that is enough for Ms Dlamini.  The next item on the subpoena is (g), that is the killing of Sergeant Pretorius in and during 1988.  Now, when did you meet Sergeant Pretorius, could you please shortly tell us?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I met Pretorius at Oupa Seheri case at the High court.  I was with Mrs Mandela the first time I met him and Zinzi and  Charles Zwane.  We had to get inside the lift and it was my first time to put my foot in the High court.
 When we got inside the lift, they told me that these are the police and I wondered why we got inside the same lift because I did not want anyone to touch Mommy and I was worried that they would touch Mommy.  Only myself could touch Mommy, not anyone else.
 I had cut my hair and we got inside the court room and this boy looked at me and kept looking at some photo's that he had with him.  We got to fourth floor or third floor and we got off the lift and we approached the room. 
 Mommy did not tell us where to sit and she went to sit with Zinzi and myself and Charles Zwane sat on the other side.  The Police got inside.  They kept looking at these pictures, photo's.
 I heard him saying, you coach and I said to Charles, did you hear that, and I went to Mommy and I said to Mommy, he referred to me as coach and I saw Charles doing something and I said Charles, what are you doing, and Charles was talking about junior Slovo, and we saw junior Slovo getting out of the court room and I said (indistinct), that person got out.

MR RICHARD: I know it is a long story, but I am going to for the sake of time, cut you short on the story.  You saw Mr Pretorius at the High court and then you saw him again in the area where you lived.  Could you start up there again?

JERRY RICHARDSON: You know, I wanted us to take our time and now you keep instructing me to be fast, and I wanted us to get into details, but I will try my best.
 Charles Zwane left us and went to sit in the court room and I told Mazet, when I say Mazet I am referring to Zinzi, I said Mazet, there is Charles leaving and we used to put on T-shirts that had some writing on and she said go and (indistinct) and I went back to Mazet and said Mazet, he will be coming and he got inside and there was silence in the court and we stood up.
 And we saw Oupa Seheri wearing a brown overall and I was wondering is this how High court operates?

MR RICHARD: Now, we are talking about your meeting with Sergeant Pretorius, you saw Sergeant Pretorius at the High court and you became most perturbed because he was looking at you and he had a photograph in his hand.
 The Oupa Seheri case concluded, when did you see him again?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't quite remember when I saw Pretorius again and where because when I look at the sketch that I have here, it does not collaborate with what I am saying because it is divided, there is soccer issues and there is Pretorius issues.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, perhaps if you will accommodate your client and try and - he seems to say he has categories and perhaps you might just in leading him, go into those categories and let him ... (intervention)