Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MR BERGER: Now the facts that I have at my disposal are of necessity gleaned from what you and your fellow applicants say happened at kwaMadala, and bearing in mind what you've said about the delay, Mr Victor Mthembu says that at this meeting of the 14th Themba Xhosa was angry at the killing of his people, and he said if the people come and attack you, you are supposed to fight back and kill them.  Now Mr Victor Mthembu says that is a fact.  What I'm putting to you from that fact and your evidence about the delay, is that the plans to attack Boipatong must have been discussed at this meeting on the 14th, that you know about that, and that you are concealing it because you do not want to implicate Themba Xhosa.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That is not true.  It's not the way you put it.  There is no reason why I shall try to protect Themba Xhosa or any other person.  If these people put my life in danger - my life is in danger in this present moment, and I'm here to ask for amnesty.  I will not put my life into danger to protect other people or to please other people.  I stand by my words as I've stated, I don't have any knowledge of the meeting where these things were discussed, and I'm not denying that there was such a meeting, however I'm saying no, I was not present in such a meeting.

MR BERGER: You see the reason I'm putting these things to you is because by the time the night of the 17th came you knew, I put it to you, that when people were being called to the stadium, you knew now it's the time for the attack.  To the extent that people went to the stadium already armed with their spears, assegais and so on.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I will try to correct your statement.  On the 17th when we were called to the stadium most of us were not armed.  We were to be sent back to go and arm ourselves from the houses.  The reason for them sending us back is because we went there unarmed.  You couldn't go to such a meeting unarmed if you knew that we were going to fight, therefore I would say you are making a mistake.

MR BERGER: I put this to you, is because if one has a look at Exhibit G, it's the statement of Moosa Tokosane Dlamini, and he says the following
"On Wednesday the 17th of June 1992 I was in my room at no 9 kwaMadala Hostel.  We were four men in the room.  I heard a Zulu trumpet outside, I went out of my room, I saw that people were gathering in the inner square of the hostel.  I went to the group of people ...",
and this is the important part, he says:
"... Before I went out of my room I armed myself with the traditional shield, knobkierrie and a stick.  When I came to the group of people, or when I joined them, I heard the Induna of the young men in the hostel speaking with the group.  His name is Mkhize ...",
and again this is the important part:
"... All the people in the group were armed with kierries, sticks and some had assegais.  Mkhize said that we were going to Tletlela, this is our name for Boipatong, to fight."
And he then says that you moved out to Boipatong.  The point I'm making is that in his statement he says that by the time the men gathered they were already armed.  Do you understand what I'm putting to you?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes I understand that, but I don't agree with that statement because when you look at the statement of state witness Bujose in the trial case of Boipatong, it says that we were turned back to go and arm ourselves because we were not armed in the beginning, and that is a fact, that's how it happened and I stand by my words that we went to the stadium unarmed.

MR BERGER: Do you accept the evidence of the state witness Bujose in all respects?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: If you are to refer to Moosa's statement I shall think we should also use Majose's statement, and it's not only Majose who was saying that, that we went to the stadium unarmed and we were sent back.  If the others still remember well they would come and confirm that that's what happened.

MR BERGER: My question to you is, do you accept all the evidence of the state witness Mr Bujose?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: With reference to the part where it was said that we went to the stadium armed and we were turned back, I do agree or accept his evidence, but I'm not accepting the whole of his evidence.  Your Honour I would like to make you understand that people like Moosa, they were ill-treated or assaulted before they give the statements, therefore they didn't give them freely and voluntarily, they were forced to make statements.  When they were coming out of prison they were shocked and assaulted, I think by the police who were investigating their cases.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you shared a room with Teresa Mofoking?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that you shared a room with Timothy Mazibuko?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: At the trial Timothy Mazibuko denied that Teresa Mofoking shared a room with the two of you.  That denial was false, correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that after the attack, that Timothy Mazibuko returned to the hostel with a duvet which was full of blood, and that he washed that duvet the following morning?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: You shared the same room, didn't you see that bloody duvet that night or the following morning, and see Timothy Mazibuko washing it?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I didn't see him.

MR BERGER: Did you see Timothy Mazibuko when he came back after the attack, and if so, when was that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I saw him in the room where we were staying.

MR BERGER: Was this on the night immediately after the attack?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you spoke to him the following morning, the morning of the 18th?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: You saw him in your room when you woke up that morning, the 18th?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: At the trial Mr Bujose gave evidence that you were in possession of a pump-gun, and that you shot at people in the vicinity of Cape Gate.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Majose was lying, I wasn't armed with a pump-gun.  I didn't even reach the Cape Gate point.  He was lying, no such a thing happened.

MR BERGER: So in some respects Bujose was lying, in other respects he was telling the truth?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: ...(inaudible) said that you came to get weapons and "lappies" from the room.  Is that a lie or is that the truth?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: It's correct to say that I came to collect a knobkierrie and a lap, and I went out.

MR BERGER: So she was telling the truth in that regard?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: She also said that on the 18th of June you and accused no 60, who was Timothy Stals Mazibuko, were having a conversation about a television set which you had carried to the fire during the burning of goods and evidence in kwaMadala.  Was she telling the truth or was she telling a lie?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: She's lying.  As I'm saying to you that I don't remember seeing Timothy Mazibuko ...(indistinct) in the morning.  I know that he normally wakes up in the morning and goes to his places in the morning, or I will wake up earlier than him and go somewhere before he wakes up.  We are staying in rooms which are like a hall where you can see that they are divided.  If refers to the TV, I last saw him throwing away the TV on the road after we just crossed a bridge, that's where he dropped the TV.  I didn't see any duvet with blood, or I didn't take any TV on the following day and throw it on the fire.

MR BERGER: Are you aware of the fire the following day where goods stolen from Boipatong and evidence linking the residents of Boipatong to the attack was burned?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Were you at the meeting addressed by Themba Xhosa on the day following the attack?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Humphrey Ndlovu was also at that meeting, correct?