Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-23

ADV GCABASHE: But you are saying with regard to stealing either stealing police or security personnel's firearms, that was part of the policy but would you have to take that firearm back to your local command, there some kind of structure, a report back structure, this is what I've been involved in?

SALLY SEALEY: No that's correct.  I mean if a weapon had been taken it should then go back to the commander because the commander had overall control of the weapons in his section, those weapons actually belonged to the section.  Hence the Committee of Seven us to - you know for example, if you were caught abusing a sectional weapon, for example if you used a sectional weapon to engage in a criminal act obviously then you would be brought up before the Committee of Seven and dealt with in whatever way.

ADV GCABASHE: Then a final question.  Do you know of any either Internal Stability Unit policemen or other security personnel who have applied for amnesty for the violence that they perpetrated in these particular areas?  I was curious to know, having read these applications.

SALLY SEALEY: As I understand it there is no member of the Internal Stability Unit which was basically Unit 19 that operated in the Thokoza area, have applied for amnesty.  Interestingly enough once Unit 19 left the Katorus area it was then sent down to Natal and very similar reports emerged from their involvement in Natal of torture and police abusive power.
	The other interesting thing as well is that obviously the violence was not one-sided.  Here you have applications from Self Defence Unit members but as regards applications from Self Protection Units on the IFP side, the only people from the IFP side i.e. Self Protection Units that have applied, are those members that are in prison.  There is no member of the Self Protection Units from this Thokoza area that actually applied who haven't been in prison.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. ...(end of tape)
	... and then there was a lull and then there was the attack on a group of IFP people that you have referred and then the violence seemed to have spiralled.  But just roughly, when was this, what were the periods involved?

SALLY SEALEY: The mass attacks was the period July/August 1990 to December 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this coincide with the change in the
status of the IFP from a cultural organisation to a political organisation that you've referred to?

SALLY SEALEY: That's correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what is the second period of violence?

SALLY SEALEY: The second period of violence was from September 1991, which was the attack on the IFP marchers along Khumalo Street.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long did that carry on for?

SALLY SEALEY: That violence was right up until just prior to the first democratic elections.  In fact if I'm not mistaken three or four days before the elections the East Rand was aboil again, so that lasted right up until I would say April, perhaps the first two weeks of April 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: So we're looking at a period of about three, roughly three years of violence in this particular area?

SALLY SEALEY: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it involved these conflicting parties that you've referred to, roughly residents supporting the African National Congress and residents supporting the Inkatha Freedom Party?

SALLY SEALEY: That would be correct.  If I could just add as well, initially there were perceptions that the conflict was between Xhosa speaking people and Zulu speaking people but if you actually look at the violence in Thokoza for example, the section which is known as Penduka, which is Thambo Slovo's section, that is a predominantly Zulu speaking section and that is where most of the, that is one of the serious areas which was effected during the violence.
	I do recall at the time that the press was quite insistent on this black-on-black violence and this tribal conflict which they used to constantly mention, but in fact if one looks at the violence in the Penduka section, it was not Xhosa versus Zulu or anything like that, it was purely political conflict between the two conflicting parties.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any rough statistic as to the number of people that got killed in this conflict over this period?

SALLY SEALEY: If my memory serves me right we are talking in the region of plus minus three to four thousand people, that would be for the Katorus area.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think you've referred to it as a vicious cycle, so you have attacks and counter attacks and you would have all of the conflicting sides in this conflict causing death and destruction and so forth?

SALLY SEALEY: I would say that it's correct.  I mean my experience, during the violence I myself was inside the township and generally what you would find is, for example if an attack was launched by the IFP on the Penduka section, this would then result in the Self Defence Units gathering themselves together and firing back and obviously this would then result in the IFP, and it ended up being you know on both sides just basically firing and then returning fire and so on.  So it definitely - ja, both sides were responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it appears as if the, what is referred to as the hostels, had been quite central to an extent in this conflict, is that perception correct or not?

SALLY SEALEY: That perception is correct. If you look at Thokoza, Thokoza has basically four hostels, Kalenjoni hostel which is situated right next to Polla Park ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that.

SALLY SEALEY: Kalenjoni hostel which is situated right next to Polla Park.  That hostel is no longer there.  After the initial attacks by the hostel residents on Polla Park, that hostel was in actual fact, I believe handgrenades and limpet mines were placed at that hostel and the residents fled.  The residents who were supporters of the IFP fled further to the other hostels which were further into the township and that hostel was destroyed by the people of Polla Park.
	It was a situation where after the explosion women and children themselves came out and pushed down the walls, so that particular hostel is no longer there.  Then there are three hostels along Khumalo Street, and that is Katuza hostel, Mshayazafe and Mandela hostel.  Those three hostels are still existing today.
	And then there is a further hostel which is actually in Khatlehong which is the Booiefuti hostel but it faces onto Extension 2 in, Extension 2 Unit F of Thokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: So the last one, is it between Khatlehong and Thokoza?

SALLY SEALEY: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In terms of this conflict, what were the sort of allegiances of these hostels, was there any indication?

SALLY SEALEY: Well originally, in the Kalenjoni hostel for example there were residents from all political persuasion.  However, when the IFP became a political party, residents who apparently failed to join the IFP were told that they should leave and those were the residents who then sought refuge in Polla Park.
	As regards the hostels further up the street, all those residents were thought to be IFP, had IFP allegiances.  I think it's important to point out that even if you weren't a member of the IFP and you stayed in the hostel, I don't think you really had much choice in the matter because if you failed to agree with what was happening in the hostel you yourself became a victim.  So I think it needs to be seen in that particular context as well.

CHAIRPERSON: So was the ostensible base of the IFP presence in Thokoza in these hostels?