Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I will not dispute that because I did not have time to look who were the people in the car.  I was just missed with gunshots, then I was running.  People I am able to remember is Mamome and Motsamai.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, you were not blindfolded at any time so that you couldn't see around you, were you on that day?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was never blind.

MR VISSER: Blindfolded, put something over your head so that you couldn't see.  Did that happen?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: If a person is nervous, he cannot concentrate.  Then I wasn't concentrating the identity of the people who arrested me.

MR VISSER: I see, all right.  This person that you referred to as Monakule Mtabo.  Is his name also Monase?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is an abbreviation for Monakule.

MR VISSER: Right.  Did you see him in the kombi after you were arrested?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I saw him at Fountain.  He was full of blood.  He was bloodstained after he was sjamboked.

MR VISSER: Yes, well Mr Makhubalo, would it surprise you that he was the man who came and brought the police to point out where you were?  He led the police to you, the Security Branch to you.  Would that surprise you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I don't, can you clarity your question?

MR VISSER: Did you see him in the kombi, you already said no, I didn't.  I am putting it to you that he was in the kombi, because he led the members of the Security Branch, which I put to you just now, to where you were.  He knew where you were and he took them there.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is a lie.  He never went with the police.  Even today I will never believe that he worked with the police.

MR NTSEBEZA: How can you guarantee that on behalf of somebody Mr Makhubalo?  Can you really guarantee that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I lived with him.  I am still living with him even today.

MR VISSER: All right.  Mr Mamome says, you are quite right, he was the driver of the kombi.  He says that when he saw you, when they saw you, they stopped and he called you.  Did that happen?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He is lying.

MR VISSER: Do you have any idea why he would lie about that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I think that ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: I presume it is only about the calling you that he is lying, because there were three statements.  He was the driver, do you agree with that, Mamome?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And he stopped, do you agree with that too?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And then the evidence would be that he called you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is why I say he is telling a lie.

MR VISSER: And my question to you is why do you think would he lie about that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: When the car stopped, Mr Mamome he started by shooting.   Then after that, then I ran.

MR VISSER: Let's just deal with that point and get done with.  Did you think that Mr Mamome wanted to kill you, is that what you thought?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: If he didn't want to kill me, he couldn't have shot, so I think so.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And you told us that he tripped you and you were arrested by him later after you ran away?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He didn't trip me, he kicked me and then I lost my teeth thereafter.

MR VISSER: All right.  Are you saying that Mr Mamome, on that day when you were arrested, never tripped you?  Are you saying that?  I want to make it absolutely clear?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: There is again this problem of interpretation.  What I am saying is that Mr Mamome kicked me.

MR VISSER: And I am asking you is your evidence that he never tripped you on that day?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I fell on the ground after he made me to fall.  And then thereafter he kicked me on the mouth.

MR VISSER: I don't know what is so difficult about answering the question, but how did he make you to fall?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He made me to fall, then thereafter he kicked me.

MR VISSER: All right, so I have to take that as a no.

CHAIRPERSON: Mightn't there be some difference in interpretation of tripped and made him to fall?

MR VISSER: Well, I would appreciate some assistance, because I am going to argue that this witness is giving evasive evidence or contradictory evidence, because yesterday he told you very clearly that Mamome tripped him.  Today he has great difficulty in understanding that.
	I don't comprehend that Mr Chairman.  Unless, of course, he is lying about it for some reason or other.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: May you repeat the question.  I am thinking that to trip and to make you fall, in my language is one thing.  If you interpret it differently, making you to fall and to be tripped, maybe that is a problem.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Visser, I think more appropriately what the witness is saying is that he used, in his own language he used a term which according to him can be interpreted as meaning to trip and he is effectively saying well, it is for the Interpreter in his interpretation to interpret the term I use in my language as trip or cause to fall.  that is what he is saying.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  So is it really a problem between you and the Interpreter, is that what you are saying?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is a problem of the language?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I think we have a problem here.  My learned friend is trying to make a statement that the witness has lied in terms of tripping and falling to the ground as he has just explained to us that it is not in fact so.  Judge Ngoepe has also put it clearly, it is not a matter of saying something different yesterday to what he said today.
	All that he has said is that the term to be brought down or fall down can be interpreted in two ways in English or Afrikaans, and it is not a case that he is trying to lie.  If my learned friend is trying to suggest that he is making a lie, then I wish to object to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't this  a matter for argument?

MR VISSER: That is precisely.  The only thing, in fairness to the witness Mr Chairman, is I wanted him to confirm what Judge Ngoepe had said, is that he has got a problem with the interpretation, and nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't hear the other interpretation, he doesn't know how it is interpreted, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Fair enough, Mr Chairman.  When Mr Mamome says he called you, you came to him, Mr Makhubalo.  I take it you will deny that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: He says that Mr Motsamai was sitting on the seat behind the driver's seat, behind him, in the kombi.  Can you deny that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, sir, I deny that.

MR VISSER: Where was Mr Motsamai in the kombi?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He was sitting with Mamome in front of the kombi.

MR VISSER: So on that occasion you were able to see very well who sat where in the kombi?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said to you some of the occupants of the kombi I didn't see, but those who were in front, I was supposed to see.  I had to see them.

MR VISSER: Why couldn't you also see the person sitting in the rear of the kombi?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said to you I was nervous and the other thing, I was angry, thirdly I was bleeding.  I didn't have time to look who were the occupants of the kombi.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, please let us confine ourselves.  The kombi has just arrived, do you understand that.  Is has just stopped.  Mr Mamome says I called Oupa Makhubalo, you say that is not so.
	I am putting to you that Mr Motsamai at that stage, was sitting behind Mr Mamome on the back seat, on one of the back seats of the kombi.  And I am asking you can you deny that?  Do you remember that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I deny that even now.

MR VISSER: And I am asking you this, why didn't you see the other people in the kombi at that time?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said to you I was supposed to see Mamome, because you just said to me that he was driving.  There was no possibility that I could not see him, and Motsamai was in front, and when I entered the kombi, I was on the second seat from the front, then I didn't look back who was at the back of me.