Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct because everyone, especially the police, they knew that Gqozo did not like the police that much, he used to be in favour of soldiers, that was obvious.  It comes as a surprise to me that the senior officers were very close to Brigadier Gqozo because they're also a police and Gqozo disliked the police, all of them, officer or non-commissioned officers, he used to prefer soldiers.

MR OBOSE: Nothing further Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Obose.
	Mr Nompozolo, questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, questions?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Luwana, when you were with Brigadier Bongusa, I understand Commissioner Nqoya was already at the meeting?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And Brigadier Bongusa said to you that he would not attend that meeting, he that is Bongusa?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact he was surprised that Commissioner Nqoya would attend that meeting as it was then?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So you decided to go and fetch Commissioner Nqoya there?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you went to him and said to him that Brigadier Gqozo wants to talk to him?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact by saying that you were lying to him?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you lie to him?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I wanted to take him out of that situation.  As his bodyguard that was my duty to try and rescue him if every he is in trouble.

MR MAPOMA: So in a way you were taking care of his interests, that is Commissioner Nqoya?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I was doing whatever because that was my duty.

MR MAPOMA: So you did not go to that meeting as a police officer as such, you went to that meeting to fetch Commissioner Nqoya, get him out of that meeting, that was the reason why you went there?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I went to that meeting because I was going there with General Nqoya but when I realised that that was not what he said he was attending.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, no, you didn't get me correctly, sorry.  At the first instance, when you went there, when you went there for the first time, you went there - when you went to tell him that Brigadier wanted him, you did not go there as a policeman, you went there to get him out of that meeting, that was the purpose of going there?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I do not understand.

MR MAPOMA: After you spoke to Brigadier Bongusa, you went to that meeting where Commissioner Nqoya was.  You were not attending that meeting as such as a policeman, you were going to that meeting to get Commissioner Nqoya out of that meeting, that was your purpose of going there?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct, when I was from Brigadier Bongusa I went there to take Brigadier Nqoya, General Nqoya.

MR MAPOMA: Yes and at that time the understanding was that all police officers are expected to attend that meeting?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: That was not the case.

MR MAPOMA: Now in your view at which stage did you attend that meeting as a police officer?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: There was no stage whereby I attended there, the meeting as a policeman except for the fact that I went there with General Nqoya.  When I realised that there was a shift, there was no reason, nothing was mentioned that all the police should get there because at least the police stations, there should be people in the police stations, only the warrant officers were called to the meeting.  The fact that they called each and every policeman to attend the meeting, it's something that they did out of their own and even those who were later contacted they were not part and parcel of that meeting.

MR MAPOMA: So I take it that you were not in favour of attending that meeting, you as a person?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I am one of the policemen who were not part and parcel of that meeting because we were not called.  Only a few policemen were called.  The fact that they ended up calling each and every policeman to the meeting is something that they did out of their own and even General Nqoya was no longer there and myself, were no longer there.

MR MAPOMA: Yes but that does not answer my question.  My question now to you is that you as a person were not in favour of attending that meeting, yes or no?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: I am not in a position to answer direct to that question because I wanted to go to the meeting, the real one, at the time.  The one on voter education but what ended up happening, it came to me as a surprise because I knew nothing about it.  Perhaps if I was briefed or told what was it about maybe I would have some interest but because I didn't know anything about it I was not interested.

MR MAPOMA: Now after you spoke to Brigadier Bongusa, you were not in favour of attending that meeting, is that correct?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Not myself, General Nqoya.  I realised that this meeting could be dangerous to him because there were comments that utterances like he would not go out of that meeting without addressing the police, that was not the reason for him to be there.

MR MAPOMA: Yes so ...(intervention)

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: My absence in that meeting, me as an individual, it's not because I was leaving because I did not want to be there, I was leaving because I was protecting General Nqoya and that was my duty.

MR MAPOMA: Am I made to believe that you wanted to attend that meeting otherwise?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: If I did get the information about the meeting I was going to go to that meeting because if all the police had to be in that meeting, as one of the policemen I would have to be there in that meeting.

MR MAPOMA: Now Mr Luwana, in your view why did the Brigadier resign?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: The reason in my view, the reason for him to resign it's because he did not get co-operation from the soldiers, not from the police, I can even quote a few to prove that Brigadier Gqozo, the police was not his concern, the police could not let him to leave his position or resign.  In the former Ciskei there was once a march, an ANC march that was conducted by police.  Brigadier Gqozo during the discussions in that panel he mentioned that the march should only go within the boundaries of Ciskei of South Africa and they even went up as far as the stadium, conducted by the police, it was addressed at the stadium.  No one was shot at and the march came to an end.  Brigadier Gqozo said that police were cowards.  He said the people got inside there and they were saying that they had won the victory because they managed to go beyond the crossing line.
	In the second march he used the soldiers, the police were not used.  The police were told to stand inside the building, the government buildings and the soldiers were in charge there to prove that he trusted them and the police - that proves that the police were not the people who would lead him to resign that is why I am saying the reason for Gqozo to resign, it was through lack of co-operation between him and the soldiers.

MR MAPOMA: So do I understand you to mean that the reason is that he did not get assistance from the soldiers in averting what these policemen were doing there?  Is that what you mean?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct, that is what I think.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Luwana.  Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.
	Mr Luwana, after you had told General Nqoya that Brigadier Gqozo wants to see him in his office, and he was then finally released by the meeting to go, did he go from the college hall straight to the office of Brigadier Gqozo?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't make an appointment first to see Brigadier Gqozo?

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: No.