Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes and even before the name the CCB came into existence, there were various other units which had other names before the CCB was created, such as Barnacle?  In other words the modus operandi was nothing new, all that was new was the creation of an internal region, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you had skilled and experienced people, such as Mr Verster, who'd been with that type of work for a considerable period of time?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And they would have bought that experience and that knowledge to bear on the situation in South Africa?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Your inability, apparent inability to say one way or the other whether any of these people were being monitored, targeted, we're going to argue at the end that this is calculated amnesia on your part and the reason for your calculated amnesia is you do not wish to reveal here today who exactly was being targeted and why and if anybody would be expected to know those details in connection with Region 6, you would be the very person as the Regional Manager.  Do you want to comment?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I don't agree with you.  I don't agree with your assumptions and the reason why I'm sitting here today is to tell the truth and nothing but the truth.  It's a pity that you seem to make other assumptions because what I've told you is, before God, the truth.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just one or two last questions.  Mr Matthysen was your friend?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, he's my friend.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Still alive?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, yesterday or the day before he still was.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, you and the other members of Region 6 were attached to Matthysen Busvervoer in some or other capacity for round about eleven months.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Six months.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Six months, alright.  In that six month period money was passing through his business, cars were being bought and so on and so forth, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What did Mr Matthysen think that these four ex-members of the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit were doing at his bus company?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: He knew that it was a cover for the Security Forces.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you asked him to do you a favour as a friend?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In return for remuneration?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Was he going to be paid?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He did it as a personal favour?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: There's a mention in the diary of a written warning to be given to Calla Botha, what was that about?  I'm just asking you, do you independently recall anything about a written warning being given to any Region 6 member?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, Mr Botha had been warned regarding his connection with Mr Barnard.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you recall whether he was given a written warning?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Before you started going to the Managers' Meetings, you said you were there for about six months before you started going to the meetings of all the Regional Managers, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, more or less.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Before that, was Mr Basson going to those meetings?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well after you started attending those meetings, did Mr Basson attend them?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you know?  Didn't you see him there or can't you remember?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know whether Mr Basson attended the meetings because I didn't attend them.

CHAIRPERSON: You said at one stage you, when you initially got there, you went in this - you didn't attend the other meetings, but at one stage in your evidence you said that you did attend Managers' Meetings later.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what Mr Kahanovitz wants to know is at those meetings, the Region Managers' meetings, did Mr Basson attend them?  That's all he wants to know.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Basson was a co-ordinator and I don't think that he would have attended those meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: But those that you attended, did you see him there or not?  Did he attend or not?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KAHANOVITZ

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kahanovitz.  Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.  Mr Chairman I've got a few questions.  I will be brief.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Burger in your application you say that, refer to
"A gang in Cape Town known as the Kewtown Youth Movement",
now you were the Head of the Brixton Murder and Robber, you know the term "bende" has a specific meaning and association.  Now we've heard testimony here that some people think, or some of the applicants thought that we were gangsters in the classical sense of the word and other merely use the word "bende" as a label or maybe a label of convenience.  What was your interpretation of the word "bende"?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think in the context of my application gang was a group of people.

MR WILLIAMS: So you did not think that the Kewtown Youth Movement were a lot of gangsters, is that your testimony?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I accepted that this was a group of people who were politically orientated and were involved in acts of terror against the State.

MR WILLIAMS: You say that you received information from Mr Verster that the Kewtown Youth Movement were going to start a fire in Khayelitsha, is that correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: What else did Mr Verster tell you were the Q-Town Youth Movement going to do?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think my amnesia is creeping in again.  No on a more serious note, Mr Williams, I think - well in my application it is stated that, if I may just turn to that page, that there reference is made to bomb attacks on the polling booths and the disruption of the election.

MR WILLIAMS: You're reading from your application now, what independent recollection do you have about the allegations that Mr Verster was making?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I can't remember.

MR WILLIAMS: The sum total of his contribution was that:  "We were going to cause a fire in Khayelitsha"?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: What was the information that was supplied to you by the Intelligence structures within the CCB?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Please repeat.

MR WILLIAMS: By the Intelligence structures.

CHAIRPERSON: What information did you receive from the Information or the Intelligence structures relating to the Kewtown youth?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That they were involved in the bomb attacks on the Athlone Post Office and the Athlone Magistrates Court.

MR WILLIAMS: You're reading from your application.  Can you recall independently what their contribution was, yes or no?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR WILLIAMS: You cannot recall independently?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR WILLIAMS: You've testified earlier that there were three sources of information.  The first source was Slang through his informant, the second source was Col Verster and the third source was the Intelligence structure which existed within the CCB.  Now you've heard the testimony by Col Verster and that is that he never verified information, he did not contribute to the information, he said:  "Go and ask the co-ordinator, you should ask those questions to him".  Were you here when he testified to that effect?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Now I put it to you that Mr Verster's testimony is to the effect that he cannot tell the Committee whether the information that Mr Slang van Zyl received was verified by your Intelligence structures, or not, he could not assist the Committee in that respect.