Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-04

ADV PRIOR: Did you then, after you had armed the bomb, did you then get out of the vehicle?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes I did that.

ADV PRIOR: And when you got out of the vehicle, did you notice anyone coming towards you at that particular stage?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes because before I moved away I acted as a chauffeur waiting for somebody.

ADV PRIOR: You pretended that you were a chauffeur?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And did people come past you?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Not past me, passed by in the sense that they were not from the direction of the stadium.

ADV PRIOR: Alright, at some stage you were satisfied that you could move away from the car, is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That was according to the plan.

ADV PRIOR: And do I understand you, whilst - when you had got to your position on the South of Upper Meyer Street, the position you marked on the photograph, is it at that time you saw these two men coming up the road towards you?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: You are wrong there.

ADV PRIOR: Assist me, was it before you took observation at the South end of the road, so before you got there you had seen people, these two men coming up the road?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: The reason for me to move away from the car was because they were approaching me.

ADV PRIOR: And you say you believed in your mind and you assumed, as you said, that these people were related to a security, whether they were security or police or what, is that what you believed?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Not only to believe it was confirmed by their actions.

ADV PRIOR: And is it so that whilst they were near the car you then detonated the device?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Based on all the calculation as I've mentioned here that immediately if I moved away from the line of sight more damage was going to be made by the explosive.

ADV PRIOR: So are you in fact agreeing with me that when these two men who you believed were security personnel were near the vehicle, had actually turned back to go back to the vehicle, that is when you triggered off the device, you activated your remote control ...[intervention]

MR VAN DEN BERG: Device.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry - and caused the detonation of the bomb, do you agree with that?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I full agree because their action - their action fitted people who were working for a system.

ADV PRIOR: And that is why you detonated the bomb at that time?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: It was because of that, to save more casualties that could have happened if I've moved away from the area.

ADV PRIOR: I seem to get the sense that the reason why you activated the bomb is that you did not want bomb to be discovered.  Am I incorrect in that assessment?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I will disagree with you in the sense that I was the one who timed the device.  As I've stated that I wanted the device to go off before the end of the match.  Any time from the interference of the material according to my setting of the devices anything could have happened.  The only way of saving that situation was to trigger it before I move out of this area.

ADV PRIOR: You see the two men that died there, Mr Klukas and Mr Marais, were not security people, we've heard that.  They were people who had been at the rugby and they were leaving the stadium in order to go home?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: ...[indistinct]

ADV PRIOR: So I'm suggesting to you on your assessment must have been wrong that they were security people, policemen, people associated with the regime as you put it.  I'm suggesting to you that that is not so.

LESTER DUMAKUDE: By that time I didn't have that information.

ADV PRIOR: I'm going to suggest to you that it seems unlikely that if - if Mr Klukas and Marais were leaving the stadium before the general mass of people had left, they were presumably and probably on their way home and walking to where their transport had been stationed and it so happened that it took them up Meyer Street and it seems on your evidence that when they got near your car, that is when you detonated the bomb?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I was the one at the situation, at the place.  What I'm saying here it's what I've always said.

ADV PRIOR: Why didn't you wait and see whether they moved away, they could possibly have gone back to the stadium and then you could have detonated the bomb with no fear of killing anybody.  Could you have done that?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Like I've said, I didn't just trigger because I was trigger happy.

ADV PRIOR: No I'm not suggesting you were trigger happy, I'm suggesting that why didn't you wait and assess the situation to see whether these two people who you believed were security personnel may have moved away from the car, back to the stadium or back to wherever they had come from, then you could have detonated the bomb?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Your question, I think it undermines my thinking capability.  I did take that into consideration and when I reached the decision of triggering the device it was based on the decision after I've observed their action.

ADV PRIOR: Well when they moved back to the car, what were they doing, can you remember?  Were they looking into the car, were they standing at the car, what were they doing?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Not only looking at the car but with the intention of finding out and as I've indicated there were many things that were going to expose the car - to the car with a certain intention.

ADV PRIOR: Are you saying to this Committee that your fear was that they would have discovered the presence of a bomb in that car at that time, that was a fear that you had?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Not a fear of the bomb being discovered but the fear of what was to come after I move away from the area without triggering the device.

ADV PRIOR: Do I understand you now to say or do I understand what you've now said is that you had a decision to make.  Either kill two people or wait for the bomb to go off as per the timing device and maybe kill many more?  Was that the dilemma that was facing you?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Partly I will agree with you, it was a question of you wait for them, the bomb or the devices explode on their own or I have to protect what I can protect.

ADV PRIOR: But you knew that you had set the bomb to explode at a time when there was going to be nobody, in your mind, around except you said that maybe some people would have left the game early but your intention was not to kill, that's why you'd set the bomb to go off before the end of the match, is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well had you done that, you see we have been told that you set the bomb off - bomb to go off at five o'clock?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes it was set to go off five o'clock but at the same time making sure that the message of the explosion will be taken back to the areas where the spectators were going to go to.

CHAIRPERSON: So why didn't you time your bomb for half past four or four o'clock, long before the match was to end, when the message would still have been taken back?  Why wait for this crucial moment when people might pour out of the stadium?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Partly it was not to disrupt the match, the rugby match.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying you didn't want to disrupt the rugby match?  Are you serious about that?  That you went with a large bomb to send a message but you didn't want to disrupt the rugby match?