Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MRPETER SOLLER: I'm indebted to you Madam Interpreter.
 Mr Mbatha, would you explain to us what you mean by "dismantled itself"? Try and think if you can, of some more detailed explanation by what you mean: "dismantled itself".

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: What I mean is that the gun did not function in manner which other guns functioned, the aim for which the gun was made could not be discharged and it could not be done.

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder whether we might not consider taking our lunch break now?

MRPETER SOLLER: As it pleases you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And we will return at a quarter to two.  We'll adjourn, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask - Faizel, is there someone we can send who could make sure that those people can exercise their rights to make a noise but they mustn't be distracting and they are just now?  Where is Hanif?
 We recall Mr Mbatha.  Mr Mbatha please?  Thank you, you're still under oath.  
 Yes Mr Soller?

MRPETER SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
 Mr Mbatha, after it became apparent to you and Mr Dlamini that the first gun wasn't going to work, what steps did you then take to acquire another gun?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That wasn't my duty, it was up to the other person to see as to what to do.

MRPETER SOLLER: And what steps did he take that are to your knowledge?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: We parted ways, I went back to my place and he also went to his own place.

MRPETER SOLLER: Shortly afterwards, did you link up together with Mr Dlamini again?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I did.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did Mr Dlamini tell you that he wanted to go and visit somebody?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Ever since we parted he had gone to solve the problem with regard to the first gun that was dysfunctional.

MRPETER SOLLER: At a particular point of time that day, did he meet up with you and tell you that there was now a way of solving that problem?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That was none of business, I never tried to pursue that matter any further.

MRPETER SOLLER: Mr Mbatha, I can't lead you if - I want to ask you, did you in the company of Mr Dlamini then have sight of a second replacement gun?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: When he came back to me - that is at my place, they came - it was himself and another gentleman, we went in a car and they told me there was a certain place we were supposed to visit.  At the car, that's where they explained to me  (end of tape - no sound)

MRPETER SOLLER: Who drove to Mrs Mandela's place as you put it?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That was Mr Botha Shwala.

MRPETER SOLLER: Mr Botha Shwala and I presume from what - I can infer that Mr Dlamini went with you?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes.

MRPETER SOLLER: You told the Commission a few moments ago that it was explained to you what the reason for you acquiring the ticket was, can you please be more specific to the Commission?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Yes, now what about that ticket?  It was explained to you why you had to acquire that ticket, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Now, where in the scheme of things did the taking of the ticket - as you call it, assist in the killing of Doctor Asvat or where could it assist in the killing of Doctor Asvat?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Initially when you got the ticket as you call it, who was supposed to be the patient?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: You told the Commission a few moments ago that you then drove to Mrs Mandela's home, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Did you enter Mrs Mandela's home?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Would you just identify for us in the Commission, who is Mrs Mandela, do you see her here?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Where is she sitting?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No sound)

MRPETER SOLLER: What happened when you got to Mrs Mandela's home?  I want you to describe what you saw with your own eyes please?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Just one second please, I don't want to stop you unreasonably but let's just take this in sequential stages.  When you were with Mrs Mandela, was there any discussion about money?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, that is leading but I think it has been put in that leading sense already.

MRPETER SOLLER: I wonder if my learned friend could repeat himself, I didn't hear him.

MR SEMENYA: My objection was - the question is leading because you put in the actual words but I think I can't un-ring the bell, so we'll just wait for the answer.

MRPETER SOLLER: I think your words were that you then went to do what you had to do. Now Mr Mbatha, initially - if I understand your evidence, you were simply accompanying Mr Dlamini to do something which to you was unknown, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Yes, certainly.  At the outset of events that day, were you to play a material role in any future plans relating to Doctor Asvat or were you simply there as a party to make the appointment with Doctor Asvat?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: I want to find out Mr Soller, just how much more you have?

MRPETER SOLLER: Mr Chairperson, I'm going to have at least another 8 to 10 important questions to put to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right.

MRPETER SOLLER: May the witness proceed Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Had you ever met Mrs Mandela before or did you know of her?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Were you aware of the cause which she was promoting in our country?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: And did you admire that cause?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Okay, I don't want to be too long.  Now, you got to Doctor Asvat's room and had your - I take it you had some sort of identification being the ticket that Doctor Asvat's secretary had given you, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Did you then enter Doctor Asvat's rooms?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Was he sitting down?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: And did you then get taken into the consulting rooms of Doctor Asvat?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Mr Mbatha, I don't want to beat around the bush, when Doctor Asvat came into the consulting rooms, what did you do with your gun?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: After you fired the second shot, did Mr Dlamini enter the room to see that the shots had been fired effectively?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: His intention being to see that Doctor Asavat would not survive? - Doctor Asvat, forgive me Mr Chairperson

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Did you then demand that the electrical door be opened?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: In the event - I don't want you to take up the Commission's time, in the event, did you and Mr Dlamini both escape and run away from the scene of the crime?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Now subsequent to that - it's common cause but it's important in the context in this hearing, you were arrested were you not for the commission of this crime?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MRPETER SOLLER: Did you try and explain to the people who arrested you, the circumstances under which this crime had taken place?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)