Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

ADV SOGODI: Sorry.  I just wish to draw it to attention.  If you look on the following page, the second paragraph where it starts
"At Shimee's house we found there were weapons.  It was myself, Thebo, Sipho, Roger, Rider and the two unknown men".
So to me it looks like, ja it looks to me like that it wasn't one name like Sipho Rider on the other side.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: : No, you're right.

CHAIRPERSON: So that seems to be the true position, it's not one name, it's just they've omitted the comma.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman I also see it now.  Let me ask you this way, you just told the Committee that you, there was a photo with the name Rider, maybe you'll help us.  Did you recognise that photo, whose photo was it which had the name Rider.  Does it associate with any person you know?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who was that person?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Bhani.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So what you are saying to the Committee is that you didn't know the name Rider?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(indistinct), let me repeat.  You have already told the Committee about the name but I want to know which name did you know him about?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Sipho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I don't know whether the Committee - is there any question ...(indistinct)?

CHAIRPERSON: This may be a convenient stage, there's just one point I would like to clarify, I think I may have missed something.  We were told about Thonda, were we given another name for him?  Do you know Thonda by another name?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his other name?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Paulos ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Quarter to ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: May I just ask, and Vinger - if we could just finish this, do you know Vinger by another name?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Vinger is the same name, the full name is David Vinger.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn till quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mazete I'll proceed and read part of your statement to Capt Hugo.
"While we were on our way to go and fetch the weapons at my house Thebo told me that they are going to attack the supermarket".
Can you comment on that part of your statement?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No that is not correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you tell Capt Hugo about that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now
"After I bought the cigarettes and I did not find them at the house I assumed they had gone to the supermarket.  Afterwards I went to a shebeen and after nine o'clock I went home.  On the way to my house I met Sipho and Thebo.  Sipho asked me to walk with them to Shimee's house in order to go and fetch the weapons so that we can once again bury them in my house".
Now if you heard what you have said here it's different to what you told the Magistrate as to the sequence of events as to what actually happened that you met Sipho and Roger and that they asked you to come with a spade and that you wanted to bury the weapons and there was nothing said that you went to fetch the weapons to another place and you took them to your house to be buried.  Can you comment on that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes before this Committee, but I was not there at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't quite understand that answer.  Could you repeat it?  You were asked to explain the difference between what you told the Magistrate and what you've said in this statement.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: They would not be the same.  The statement I did before the police it is clear that that is not what I knew.  It was a fabricated evidence that I gave to the police to satisfy them.

CHAIRPERSON: You keep saying this but why should fabricated evidence satisfy the police?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: May you please repeat the question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: You keep telling us that this is fabricated evidence that you told to satisfy the police, but why should they be satisfied with fabricated evidence?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is the way I was trying to make myself free from them.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that other of your colleagues had already been arrested, didn't you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes I knew.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed Mr Chairman?

MR MALAN: May I just ask two things.  Your first answer when you were asked to explain this, did you say that you were not there.  Was that the first explanation, did I hear you correctly?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: So where were you at the time?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I was at Titello's(?) house.

MR MALAN: But in your statement to the Magistrate you say that at approximately nine o'clock you met Sipho and Roger and they asked you for a spade?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Where was this?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Can you repeat, I don't understand the speaker please?

MR MALAN: You say that at approximately nine o'clock on the night of the robbery you met with Sipho and Roger, that's Bhani and Ngesi, if I understand it correctly.  Where did you meet with them?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: In the street before, next to my sister's house in the township.

MR MALAN: Right and they asked you to get a spade you said to the Magistrate?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Where did you find that spade?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I knocked them they opened then I took the spade, then I left because at the time they were asleep.

MR MALAN: Who did you knock at?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: To my sister's room.

MR MALAN: Was that in your shack, was she your sister living in your shack by that time?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: Where was she living?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: In the township.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
"At Shimee's house we found the weapons.  It was me, Thebo, Sipho, Roger, Rider and the two unknown black men".

CHAIRPERSON: May you repeat that again please, Sipho, Roger...?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Mr Chairman did you get the first name, Thebo, it's Thebo Mr Chairman the first one and Sipho, Roger, Rider and the unknown black men.
"We all went to my shack where we buried the weapons".
Can you tell the Committee what this names Thebo, Sipho, Roger, Rider and the two unknown black men.  There's this name Rider, there's an addition of Rider now as it was raised earlier on by a member of the Committee?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Bhani.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is Rider Bhani?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then who is Thebo?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Oupa Khotle.

MR MALAN: And Sipho, that's also Bhani?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Why did you mention his name twice by different names?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: This name was first upon me by the police after they showed me his photo, which was written Rider.  When I wrote that statement they disputed that Sipho is the same person so they wanted me to include Rider again on the statement.

MR MALAN: Did you tell them that Rider was also Bhani?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No ,they did not ask me as to whether who is Sipho and who is Bhani.

MR MALAN: Why did you not tell them?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I didn't know his full names at that time.

MR MALAN: Whose full name?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Rider.

MR MALAN: Did you know Sipho's full name?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: But you knew that his name was Bhani?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No I did not know.

MR MALAN: Did you tell them that Sipho and Rider was the same person?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.
MR MBANDAZAYO
"Afterwards Sipho gave me R10,00 and I went to a shebeen.  Later that evening I met Sipho, Roger and Papie(?) at a nightclub".
Can you tell the Committee who's Papie now?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: He's a member of the PAC within the Monyakeng branch.

MR MALAN: Sorry what is his full name, Papie?