Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to make it quite easy, and I hope your client can understand it, is that he could very well testify now about incidents that occurred between the 28th of February 1991 to the 31st of December 1992 but what he has already testified to is something that by his own admission occurred in 1990.  He has not made application in respect of that incident, therefore there is no application for that incident before us.

ADV DE JAGER: You see, if he'd only mentioned the name for instance of the victim, then we could say well there's something to link it to that 1990 incident and the date may be a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: But there's nothing.

MR MAKANJEE: I agree with the Panel, that it is a very generally worded application ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MAKANJEE: That's very true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makanjee, I think it is obvious to all of us what should happen.  I appreciate your difficulty.  I am going to adjourn for five minutes.  You can explain the position to your client and hopefully you'll be able to explain it properly, that he understands and that sanity prevails.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: (s.u.o.)

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, after taking instructions from my client, my instructions are that my client is adamant that it was a mistake on the form and he does wish to proceed with his application.  The findings can only be left in the hands of the Panel.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?

MR MAKANJEE: No more questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKANJEE

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Just briefly, Sir, whose idea was it to go and bomb this house?

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: The idea was from Sally(?) but the commander was comrade Themba and Bafana and Jacky and myself ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that name please.

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: The idea was from all of us but the commander was comrade Themba.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just repeat the names that you mentioned about a minute ago.

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: Themba Xaba, Bafana Baloi, Jacky Macheo and myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: Yes, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not all the names you mentioned.

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: Sally was the one who was responsible for us to fill the amnesty application forms.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were asked whose idea it was and you mentioned a name similar to Sally, was that a mistake?

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: Yes, it was a mistake, I didn't understand the question very well.

CHAIRPERSON: I find that strange because all the other names you mentioned you repeated, but anyway you say it was a mistake.
	Yes, Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	And when did you first decide to attack this house?

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: We first decided as an organisation.  As members of the ANC we decided that it was important for us to attack houses which belonged to people who were like Mr Msizi because they were harassing people and some people even lost their houses because of them.  Therefore we decided that if we can burn his house, he will be forced to resign as a councillor.

ADV DE JAGER: The question was only this, when did you decide?  Now you've given us a long answer with reasons and you didn't listen to the question, you only recited your own answer.

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: We decided on the very same day.

MR SWANEPOEL: About what time?

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: It was about 7 o'clock.  We started preparing the petrol bombs and then we waited for a while and then at 9 o'clock we started attacking Mr Msizi's house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Did you see what damage was done to the house after the attack?

PERRY NHLANHLA DLAMINI: I didn't see that, or the damage the same day.  The next day we came and we realised that the windows were broken and the roof but the walls were still ...

MR SWANEPOEL: I have nothing further, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: No thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Chairperson, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAKANJEE