Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: But didn't he - did he ask for a gun or a pistol or a revolver?

FAAN VENTER: I can't recall the specific words, it's difficult to recall at this stage, but I think he mentioned "weapons", "weapon/weapons".

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he ask you for a pistol or revolver which could not be traced?

FAAN VENTER: Not as far as I can recall, not specifically, not as far as I can remember.  It's possible.  It's four years ago as I have said and if I ask anybody here what happened four years ago during a conversation they had they would find that it's very difficult to recall.  It's very difficult to remember the specific words.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did he or did he not mention that it must be unlicensed and not traceable?

FAAN VENTER: Preferably unlicensed, if I remember correctly.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, and untraceable to anyone.

FAAN VENTER: I don't know, I suppose unlicensed does mean untraceable because it's not licensed in anybody's name, so I suppose I assumed that if it was unlicensed it wouldn't be able to be traced, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Had you asked the person that you got the gun from where the gun came from?

FAAN VENTER: I knew where the weapons were obtained, or the weapon.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where were the weapons or weapon from?

FAAN VENTER: They stole it from the Defence Force.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Who is they?

FAAN VENTER: Amongst others Mr Gene Taylor from whom I got the firearm.  He was in detention for a week or two and during that period my wife and I looked after him and his wife's interests and that's, I think, there was a feeling of indebtedness and that's why he gave me the firearm.  I wasn't very keen to take the firearm because I already had my own firearm and a firearm was really just a nuisance, it was in my way.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you decided to see Mr Derby-Lewis in Krugersdorp did you just walk over to his house and announce yourself?

FAAN VENTER: No I phoned and made an appointment and the appointment was for that date.

GEORGE BIZOS: And this discussion was it over tea or coffee or something else?

FAAN VENTER: Yes, if I remember correctly we had tea.  I think his wife also served cake.  That's something in the back of my mind, I am not entirely clear.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And was Mrs Derby-Lewis present when her husband asked you to provide him with a gun?

FAAN VENTER: No she wasn't present.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where was she when you were talking to Mr Derby-Lewis about this gun?

FAAN VENTER: Somewhere else in the house Sir.  I can't tell you exactly in which room but she wasn't present with us.

GEORGE BIZOS: What room were you and Mr Derby-Lewis in while this discussion about the gun was taking place?

FAAN VENTER: I cannot remember Sir whether it was the lounge or whether it was on our way out to my vehicle, it's something like that which reminds me that it could have been on our way out to my vehicle, outside the house.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you know if a high-ranking Conservative Party member wanted guns for the purposes of stockpiling for the struggle that was coming, one gun was hardly a big catch.  Did he ask you where you got it from and what source there was in order to really stock up?

FAAN VENTER: Yes I think I told him from whom I had obtained it, but well whether it's one or more a few drops add up to a bucket and he started with one, I don't know whether he wanted a hundred, but one started with one to achieve a hundred in the end.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he ask you how to get hold of the person that you got it from so that he could take the matter further by going and getting properly stocked-up?

FAAN VENTER: Sir I cannot remember whether he had asked me whom I had gone to see and so on.  It's four years ago and I can't remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you are absolutely sure that it was in March that you had this discussion and it was in March that you delivered the gun?

FAAN VENTER: I am completely certain of that because I moved in on the 1st of March and from that house where I lived I travelled to Clive's house.  There is no doubt in my mind about that, that is why I said so in my original evidence.  I have no doubt that it was in March, it couldn't have been in February because I didn't live there in February.  I drove there on business in February but I did not travel with pistols with me to give to Clive.  I didn't have contact with him, I only made contact with him after I had moved in.

JUDGE WILSON: How far was his house from yours?

FAAN VENTER: At present, at the time, at the time it was about a kilometre and a half away.

GEORGE BIZOS: I would like to show you a document marked A41 in Bundle A, oh I beg your pardon, coming out of the docket which is not part of the bundle yet Mr Chairman, please tell us whether that is your signature.  Never mind the rest just tell us if that is your signature Sir.

FAAN VENTER: It is my signature, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please give it back to me.  Please read paragraph 5 into the record.  Please read it out aloud into the record.
"During the second half of February Mr Derby-Lewis and I had an appointment at his house, 18 Volkburg, Noordheuwel, Krugersdorp etc."
It's probably the 2nd of February but it is erroneous.  It was later corrected.  This is wrong, I made a mistake there.  If you had gone through with the police that I had you wouldn't be astonished that something like this could happen.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do not anticipate my questions.  Please return the document to me because there are no copies available.  The statement as written originally reads
"During the first half of February 1993...."
and "die eerste" is struck out and "tweede" has been inserted and it's initialled on the margin, is that correct?

FAAN VENTER: That is correct.  As I said I wasn't certain at that time.

GEORGE BIZOS: Perhaps it could go up to the Chairman please and shown around so that we are all satisfied that that is so.

FAAN VENTER: I would like to add that this was corrected at a later stage.  I myself was confused with the dates but when I later reconsidered the whole case I knew that it was March and there is not even a chance that it could have been February.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chair may we also see the document, we don't have it.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the date of that document?

GEORGE BIZOS: I did not notice it.  We will place it on record as soon as it comes back to us Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman we ask this statement which was signed on the 21st of April 1993 at 14:30 Mr Chairman, the Exhibit number will be Mr Chairman - Exhibit AH, may I put this on Mr Chairman and we will ask that copies be made to be distributed.
	Now this statement was made under oath by you Sir or confirmation, I am not sure, but it does not matter, you either swore or affirmed that what you said in this statement is correct.

FAAN VENTER: Yes Sir, it wasn't the only statement that I made while I was in custody or while I was with the police ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's talk about this one.  Was this one made on oath?

FAAN VENTER: Yes it was under oath but as I said I could make a mistake while under oath.  It wasn't deliberate, it was a mistake.  I didn't deliberately write it, I made a mistake under oath.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well you see it seems to me from the fact that first it was the "first half" and then it was corrected to second half" and initialled by you minimises to a very large extent of the possibility that it was just a mistake which was made unwittingly and just on passing by, do you agree?

FAAN VENTER: Yes, deleting it does indicate that I was not entirely certain at this stage and that's why it was deleted and changed.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  You also said as soon as you were confronted by Exhibit AH that you said that you were with the police or in detention and this is why you came to make that statement, is that correct?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: But now do you attribute this mistake to the fact that you were in detention at the time?