Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-29

MR VAN NIEKERK: No Mr Chairman, there is very little I can say in reply other than to say that my understanding of the written question and written answer situation that that would be something that would be attended to forthwith.  That there would be no delays of weeks or anything.  That would effectively have to be done by tomorrow before this Commission's terms of office runs to an end and that Dr Basson would then, with his legal representatives in attendance, attend a hearing of this Commission and in addition to having answered the written questions will give viva voce evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van Niekerk.
 Exercising my prerogative as I do as a member of this panel, and as Chairperson thereof, I am asking your client to take the stand because I want to put questions to him relevant to your application for postponement.  If he refuses he must instruct you to be saying he is refusing and due regard must be taken to the provisions of Section 39 of the Act with regard thereto.  I am not making a request, I am exercising a prerogative which is vested in me by law as Chairperson of this panel.

MR VAN NIEKERK: My client says he will take the stand to answer questions relating only to the application for a postponement.  If other questions are put to him he will refuse to answer them as I am not briefed as his legal representative in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
 Dr Wouter Basson you are reminded that you are still under oath.

WOUTER BASSON: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Now we intend to consider your application for a postponement as fairly as possible, but we also would like to understand from you whether you appreciate our difficulty.  Now do you understand that evidence from you, in order for us to be acting inside the provisions of the law, has to be taken from you by the 31st of July, 1998?

WOUTER BASSON: That has been explained to me by my legal representatives that the activities of the specific committee who is handling this session will come to an end at the end of the week.
 I also understand that my contact with this specific organisation, namely the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, has been since October 1996. For the first time then I was approached by members of the Investigative Unit, the Research Unit of the Truth Commission who made certain proposals to me.  It was in discussions regarding amnesty and regarding certain identity of people overseas, and should I make information available some people would be prosecuted who were involved in this Chemical and Biological Warfare programme. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes ...(intervention)

WOUTER BASSON: Could I please finish, I am trying to answer your question.  I am trying to explain to you what my view is regarding my approach and your approach.
 I've explained to these people that this was an extensive project and very good work was done in this project by other scientists ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Basson you are not answering questions ...(intervention)

WOUTER BASSON: I am trying to answer ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No you are not ...(intervention)

WOUTER BASSON: ....to the best of my ability.  When you come to the time of the 31st of July my answers are pertinent.
 As from October 1996 I had contact at various instances and said that I was willing to cooperate.  We were intimately involved ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Wouter Basson with respect I must cut you short, with great respect.

WOUTER BASSON: Then I will answer your question as follows, shortly.  My short answer is this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

WOUTER BASSON: ....I understand that by the end of this month things should be completed.  I understand that I am entitled to legal representation.  I understand that because of various things which happened and delays were caused I do not have legal representation at the moment.  I have tried to obtain legal representation for today but I do not have legal representation here today.  I am trying my utmost best.  I don't know when they will be available.

CHAIRPERSON: And do I take it that you are keen cooperate with the Commission and you do not wish to be understood that you intend directly or indirectly to frustrate the process, especially of this Committee, whose work must come to an end on the 31st of July.  Is that my understanding of your attitude, just on the attitude?

WOUTER BASSON: I have no problem at all to cooperate with the Committee and I've said this often before on the condition that certain of my constitutional rights should be complied with.  That I should also be afforded the protection like other people who are involved in this process.  I am willing, I am not unwilling to cooperate and I've not tried to delay this process at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You also are aware that at all levels, firstly before us and secondly before the Cape High Court, your rights in terms of the Constitution and in terms of the law were strenuously argued by your legal counsel and that notwithstanding that there is now an order of court for you to appear before us and answer questions.

WOUTER BASSON: You expect from me that I should comment on legal aspects which I have no experience on ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I am simply asking - Dr Basson, Dr Basson we cannot talk together.

WOUTER BASSON: I am trying to answer your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, but when I indicate to you that I need to explain some question, please, with respect, give me an opportunity to clarify an aspect that you do not understand.

WOUTER BASSON: I will do that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now what I am asking from you is whether you understand, not withstanding your application by your lawyers here before us about your Constitutional rights to - right to remain silent; to a right against self-incrimination, and notwithstanding an application to the High Court, and notwithstanding the High Court appreciating that your legal representatives might not be here today, the Court nonetheless ordered you to be before us today, all I want to ascertain is whether you understand that, or whether you understood it differently?

WOUTER BASSON: I have understood it differently.  May I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

WOUTER BASSON: I understood it, I have understood that the Judge ordered me to appear here today to answer questions which were posed to me legally.  My briefing by my legal representatives and my interpretation include the term that I could have legal representation.  I do not have legal representation here today.  I could not arrange that.  In other words I am not sure, and at this stage it is a problem which I will try to handle about what the circumstances are if I should not have legal representation.  As I understand it I cannot answer questions without legal representation.

CHAIRPERSON: I am pleased you used the word "your understanding" advisedly.  That may well be so.  Do I understand your position to be that you are in no position to make an undertaking about the presence of your lawyers tomorrow, or of lawyers who could represent you on the merits tomorrow?

WOUTER BASSON: I understand it at this stage, after I tried to contact the legal representatives this morning, that Mr Cilliers will not be available tomorrow and would perhaps be available on Friday.  As I understand it the other members of the team will also not be available on these two days.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you appreciate that no rights, including rights in the Constitution are absolute?

WOUTER BASSON: I don't understand the concept ...(intervention)