Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: You know Mr Coetzee it now seems that what you are saying to us is this answer you are giving is because what was put to you by an advocate in the Harms Commission, I asked you what Nick van Rensburg said to you.  Did Nick van Rensburg say to you anything about the motor car?

DIRK COETZEE: He did, he said it belonged to the detainee Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And did he give you any explanation what it was doing in Jeffrey's Bay?

DIRK COETZEE: He was held in Jeffrey's Bay and dived through the window, or because he dived though the window at some stage with his hands handcuffed behind his back ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee listen to my questions.  Did Nick van Rensburg give you any explanation what the motor car was doing in Jeffrey's Bay, I am talking about the motor car?

DIRK COETZEE: Just that it belonged to the detainee.

MR BOOYENS: He didn't give you any explanation what the motor car was doing there?

DIRK COETZEE: Not any explanation whatsoever.

MR BOOYENS: So all this mile long story about the car being released, the detainee being released, and Bloemfontein and all that, that is just based on something that happened at the Harms Commission?

DIRK COETZEE: And what Mr van Rensburg told us at the place where Kondile was shot and burned Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Oh so van Rensburg did tell you that?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now so we have gone full circle now.  So it's straightforward on what van Rensburg has told you that you base this?

DIRK COETZEE: And what was heard in the Harms Commission.

MR BOOYENS: Forget the Harms Commission, please.

DIRK COETZEE: Well Mr van Rensburg told that he was released, he was abducted on the road and brought back to Jeffrey's Bay.

MR BOOYENS: So van Rensburg told you that the detainee that he had in Jeffrey's Bay he went and released in Bloemfontein and then abducted him on the road and brought his car back, is that what van Rensburg told you?

DIRK COETZEE: Yes, I am getting confused now with the Harms ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Forget Harms, I am talking about what you and van Rensburg talked about.  Is that what van Rensburg told you?

DIRK COETZEE: That he was arrested on his way from Lesotho to South Africa ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: You are not answering my question.
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DIRK COETZEE: I am just trying to give you an approach Mr Chairman.  That he was arrested, detained, released and abducted, that is what it basically came down to.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.  He didn't give you any detail about the where and when and so on?

DIRK COETZEE: No he did not Mr Chairman as far as I can remember.

MR BOOYENS: And he also - so he was abducted, arrested, detained, released, abducted again?

DIRK COETZEE: After injury ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Yes forget the injury, we'll come to that.
	But then logic escaped once again.  At the stage when he's released in Jeffrey's Bay, his motor car is standing 800 kilometres or a thousand kilometres, I don't even know where, are you seriously suggesting that they would have gone through that elaborate ploy just to bring him back, if they could have just gone and fetched the car.  That's illogical isn't it Mr Coetzee?

DIRK COETZEE: The prisoner had to sign for his property personally.  The security police has got no facilities to keep prisoner's property, it is written into a register called the PPR, Prisoner's Property Register, and his vehicle entered into an SAP 81 with reference on the PPR.  So he has to sign for his own property and his own vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: So then his car must have been entered in either Bloemfontein or in Jeffrey's Bay?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, with respect, it's common cause at all stages that the vehicle was in Bloemfontein initially.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is whether it was also in Jeffrey's Bay.  The car which Mr Coetzee says he identified as being, on the information, the car belonging to Mr Kondile.

MR JANSEN: Sorry Mr Chairman your microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: The car which Mr Coetzee says he was told belonged to Kondile.

MR JANSEN: Yes but now my learned friend is stating that it must have been entered at the Jeffrey's Bay police station, now that makes no sense Mr Chairman.  If it were it would obviously only have happened under circumstances where he would have been illegally held.

MR BOOYENS: Very well Mr Chairman I will try to short-circuit this.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee if I say to you that car was never booked in in Bloemfontein, would you be able to dispute it?

DIRK COETZEE: Well I can't see that they will deviate from regulations and the applicants themselves said he wasn't sure whether it was at the security police base or at the police station at Hilton.  I can assure you that if the procedures were followed it would have been booked in as usual and as normal.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, that is if the procedures were followed and Mr Coetzee you are one of the first ones always to point out that the procedures were not always followed.  I mean you yourself were a past-master in not following ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether we should go along with that you know.  There are others with similar talents too.

MR BOOYENS: Yes exactly.  That's the point Mr Chairman, I agree hundred percent.  So we don't - you were just assuming that the procedures were followed?

DIRK COETZEE: They took him to go and sign for his car so his car must have been booked in.

MR BOOYENS: How do you know they took him to go and sign for his car?

DIRK COETZEE: That was put to me in the Harms Commission by Mr Maritz the advocate for the applicants Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Well I have told you already we are not the Harms Commission anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: You asked him how does he know and he's telling you that is how he came to know.

MR BOOYENS: Once again you weren't told - but you were told, were you told that by van Rensburg at any stage?

DIRK COETZEE: I don't know in how much detail, I can't remember Mr Chairman, but just the fact that he was arrested, detained, released and kidnapped.

MR BOOYENS: Did - you see Mr Coetzee one of the main points in dispute here seems to be the date when the deceased was killed.  Now you have done a rather elaborate exercise with the assistance of your counsel in your amnesty application to explain to us how you got to the idea that this happened towards the end of August and the beginning of November, do you remember that?

DIRK COETZEE: Towards the end of October, beginning of November.

MR BOOYENS: End of October, my apologies Mr Coetzee.
	And it basically boiled down to the following.  That a few weeks - how you know when it was, it was a few weeks after Peter and Vusi were burnt out at the same place, not so?

DIRK COETZEE: Not at the same place, in the area, about ten kilometres from that specific area.

MR BOOYENS: Oh, in the same area.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And in Peter and Vusi's case I in fact think you said that you collected, and correct me with the dates please, you collected knock-out drops for the first time from Lothar Neethling round about the 10th or 11th of October or the 20th of October, I am not hundred percent certain.

DIRK COETZEE: Around about the 10th, 11th of October Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Of 1981?

DIRK COETZEE: Of 1981.

MR BOOYENS: And so that was how you were able to determine the date of Peter and Vusi who were eventually killed around about 20 something of October, 21st, 22nd around about there, by a process of deduction?

DIRK COETZEE: About 26 Mr Chairman because we went back to General Lothar Neethling on three occasions and the last one was according to evidence that came out in the Lothar Neethling trial on Sunday the 25th of October 1981.

MR BOOYENS: And we know Mr Kondile was killed subsequent to this?

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct.