Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, allow me to answer, this matter of the re-investigation of the Asvat case occurred as follows:  there was a request from the Asvat family - addressed to our Minister, whether the Asvat case could not be investigated further.  The Minister then called me and Doctor Asvat, Mr Montane and their legal representative were then present at that meeting.
 They requested us and asked whether we could not investigate the Asvat matter with regard specifically to the involvement of Mrs Mandela.  I offered to my Minister and to Doctor Asvat that I had been the previous investigating officer, I offered to withdraw from the investigation that could then have a new person investigate the entire matter objectively.  
 Doctor Asvat and the Minister and my Commissioner were satisfied and then in fact required of me to do this investigation.  I did not mislead anybody, it was a request on the part of the Asvat family that we should continue with the investigation.

MR KADES: What investigation were you continuing with - you had closed the case, you had exhausted every source of information.   You even tell us now for the first - fortunately this Commission is sitting and so we hear it now, that you even went to see these two in the death cell - incidentally only one was in the death cell.  We hear this for the first time - you had exhausted every source, why did you not tell the Minister, why did you not tell the Asvat's?  What was the jaunt to London all about?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, it was the request of the Asvat family that we should continue with the investigation to see whether we could not obtain additional testimony which might imply Mrs Mandela's involvement.  This did not come from us, it was a request of the Asvat family.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] you but do you not think it's reasonable that if the Minister comes and says: "Look I've had this special request, won't you go and have another look at this", that this would be the normal response of an investigating officer who has to be careful of his Commissioner and his Minister, to say: "Right, we'll go and have another look at it"? ...[inaudible]

MR KADES: Well, Mr Commissioner with due respect, if the police were satisfied that they had exhausted every possible remedy and every possible source of information, I would have expected that the reasonable answer would be: "Mr Minister, we've done what we could, there is nothing else to look at".

DR BORAINE: Could you reply briefly to that for a final time and then I must ask you to move on.

MR HESSLINGA: Chair,  the court case which we investigated against Mbatha and Dlamini, we used every possible testimony which the Attorney General decided to use.  What we did when the Minister asked us, we then did additional investigations and we had an interview with Jerry Richardson with regard to the Asvat murder, we spoke to the two accused.
 And I can say to the Commission, we put them in a cell and we tapped their conversations with a tap to determine whether there might not be additional information emerging - that is the extent of our investigations.

MR KADES: May I say to you that Jerry Richardson - for what his evidence is worth, has told this Commission that he was not questioned about the Asvat matter and there's corroboration for this and the corroboration is your own diary.  There is nothing in your diary to indicate that you questioned Jerry Richardson concerning the Asvat matter.

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, I had a long personal interview with Jerry Richardson, I drove with him in a vehicle and he indicated the place where Kuki Zwane was thrown in the open veld and during that trip - we in the motor vehicle, had this conversation with Mr Richardson.

MR KADES: Mr Moodley was with you in the car?

MR HESSLINGA: I don't think so, I think it was a Lieutenant ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the name.

MR HESSLINGA: but this is a deceased police officer and possible a Sergeant Savage.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: Please do, you haven't got very much longer to go.

MR KADES: Mr Moodley, did you ever take a statement from Charla Botha?

MR MOODLEY: From?

MR KADES: Charla Botha, the third person Botha, mentioned in the statements of  - well, mentioned at the trial - statements of Dlamini and Mbatha.  Did you ever take a statement from that person?

MR MOODLEY: The second ...[inaudible] I took in 1995 from Dlamini in the cell ...[intervention]

MR KADES: At any time Mr Moodley Shalala I think you call - Botha Shawala I think is his name.  Do you hear the name for the first time today?

MR MOODLEY: I heard the name.  That must be the guy that he said worked at the coal factory in Soweto.

MR KADES: Yes.

MR MOODLEY: We went and looked for that man, we found three people by the same name but we couldn't find that man.

MR KADES: So you didn't take him - take a statement?

MR MOODLEY: No.

MR KADES: Did either of you ever talk to the Crisis Committee to find out what information they had concerning the Asvat murder?

MR MOODLEY: We did and we have a document - they gave us a document regarding that.

MR KADES: Who did you speak to?

MR MOODLEY: In fact that document came via Doctor Asvat's attorneys to us and I've got a copy of that document.

MR KADES: Who did you speak to at the Crisis Committee?

MR MOODLEY: Doctor Asvat made it available - there's a covering letter here.

MR KADES: Who did you speak to at the Crisis Committee?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, we spoke to Doctor Beyers Naude, I spoke to Doctor Frank Chikane, we spoke to people from AZAPO and the other persons of the Crisis Committee were not available to us as many of them were in fact outside the country.

MR KADES: Was there any reason why - in the ordinary course of investigations Mr Hesslinga, that you should not question a person who is indicated to you as having information concerning a most serious matter of murder?

MR HESSLINGA: I don't understand the question.

MR KADES: ...[inaudible] ask Mrs Mandela - there were very serious allegations.  It's true, there were contradictory statements but we know that there are often contradictory statements in dockets and these investigation are continued and carried out, is it because of who she was that you didn't ask her?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, are we referring to the '89 or the '95 investigation?

MR KADES: All the occasions when you were involved in the investigation of the death of Doctor Asvat.

MR HESSLINGA: During the course of the '89 investigation I was guided by the Attorney General's office and since they were not willing to use this particular testimony, there was no need for me to take a statement from Mrs Mandela or to obtain a statement.
 During the 1995 investigation, Mrs Mandela personally reacted or responded, she sent a letter to us in which her attorneys informed us that we should either charge or leave their client.

MR KADES: And so you didn't ask for a statement?

MR HESSLINGA: No.

MR KADES: Thank Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KADES

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Hesslinga, I appear for the Sono and Shabalala families.  Did you every receive any report or any information to suggest that the police killed or burnt the bodies of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, this is the first time I hear this claim.

MR UNTERHALTER: ...[inaudible] you mentioned that you attended a search that was undertaken at Mrs Mandela's house, were you aware of a hit list that was produced or found in the course of that search?

MR HESSLINGA: I can vaguely recall something like that but not factually.

MR UNTERHALTER: Can I then ask you, did you ever undertake an interview with Mrs Mandela concerning the Sono and Shabalala cases?