Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BENNET SIBAYA: I only noticed the darker car when they were getting out of the car.  I saw the white car because it was - the colour was light enough to see.  Another thing, the white car was facing towards the South and the darker car towards the north, however they were quite a distance from each other.

MR PRIOR: From that point when the white car had moved off, where did you then go?

BENNET SIBAYA: We waited until the car had left - a while after it had left, however even though the lights were not switched on he had to apply his brakes and then I saw the registration number - I memorised the number.  I took the piece of paper that I'd picked up to the police.

MR PRIOR: Just slow down.  Was that to the Guguletu police station?

BENNET SIBAYA: We were already there yes.  Our report or statement to the police was that a car belonging to soldiers was stolen together with weapons.  I showed them this piece of paper, I also told them that the other car was not from Cape Town - perhaps it had been stolen as well.

MR PRIOR: Did you give them the paper?

BENNET SIBAYA: I gave them the paper.

MR PRIOR: What was their reaction to this information?

BENNET SIBAYA: They said that there is no Heidelberg there, Heidelberg is up country.

MR PRIOR: Yes, then what happened?

BENNET SIBAYA: They then also said that the soldiers would not just leave their weapons in the car.

MR PRIOR: Yes, and then what happened?

BENNET SIBAYA: They took our names and addresses, they said that we're probably drunk, we must go home.  They tore the paper and put it in the bin.

MR PRIOR: Did you then leave?

BENNET SIBAYA: We were told to go home and sleep because we were drunk they said.  When I came back from work ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: So did you go home?  Did you go home after that?

BENNET SIBAYA: I went home to sleep.

MR PRIOR: All right, then what was the next thing that happened?

BENNET SIBAYA: After work my children said a man from the murder and robbery unit came and was looking for me.

INTERPRETER: The witness is going too fast.

MR PRIOR: Just slow down please, Mr Sibaya.

BENNET SIBAYA: He said that I would be in trouble, I must go to the police station, they want to ask me a few questions.

MR PRIOR: Do you know who this policeman was, can you remember his name - if he gave it?

BENNET SIBAYA: I don't remember it, it was a long time ago.  They did not take us seriously, they thought that we were drunk.

MR PRIOR: Now this policeman that came looking for you, did you go with them or did you go to the police station as a result of his visit?  What is the position?

BENNET SIBAYA: This man came to pick me up the next day.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

INTERPRETER: I did not hear the last two words of the witness's sentence, if he could repeat that please.

BENNET SIBAYA: He took me to Bellville South police station.

MR PRIOR: Had you ever been there before?

BENNET SIBAYA: No English translation.

MR PRIOR: Had you ever been there before?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was the first time - that day.

MR PRIOR: Right, what happened at Bellville South on that day?

BENNET SIBAYA: I was told to give details of what I saw that night.  A few days had elapsed - I told them, they said that I must go fetch my friend - he refused.

MR PRIOR: Who refused?

BENNET SIBAYA: Mazibuko refused totally.

MR PRIOR: Was Mazibuko with you on the evening you saw this white vehicle with an XA registration?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was his combi, he's a big friend of mine - I had asked him to drive me.

MR PRIOR: All right, so he refused to come to the police station?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, he totally refused.

MR PRIOR: Did you make a statement on that occasion - to the police at Bellville South?

BENNET SIBAYA: I told them everything that I had seen that night.

MR PRIOR: Were you able to describe any person that you saw in the street, at or near either the dark vehicle or the white coloured vehicle?

BENNET SIBAYA: I said to the police there was people that arrived with weapons.  I could not identify them because it was dark.  I just heard one of them saying: "Madasi, you left a cap in the car".  However, the one we had found in the car I told them it was a well built man.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, you're referring to the one you found in the car, who's that?

BENNET SIBAYA: It is the man that I found in the car, I said I could identify him to the police because he was well-built, hefty, around the age of 28 early 30's.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

BENNET SIBAYA: The others however - because it was dark I could not see them clearly however they were young people, I can't identify them.

MR PRIOR: What sort of lighting was there to have identified - as you say you did, the person who was between 29 and 30, stockily built and so on?  How did you see him - under what lighting?

BENNET SIBAYA: It was dark, I saw him because of our lights because we came close to him.  You don't switch off the lights when you enter that street and the car was not far from us.  I saw him and I looked at him carefully and I realised what kind of build he was.

MR PRIOR: Were you ever asked to go on an identification parade by the police?

BENNET SIBAYA: No.  Mr Segal said that my statement was not clear, they could not get the car, the registration was probably false he said.  However, he did come and fetch me from my home, took me to a judge and they said to me that they could not find this car - my statement was not clear they said.

MR PRIOR: Where was this Judge that you refer to, which ...[intervention]

BENNET SIBAYA: I think it was a man helping the Judge, an advocate perhaps.  They said that I was not needed because my statement was not clear.  My friend has passed away and had passed away - he was attacked.

MR PRIOR: When had Mr Mazibuko passed away?

BENNET SIBAYA: Three weeks after we were there.

MR PRIOR: Is that after you had seen the white vehicle at Guguletu?

BENNET SIBAYA: Correct.

MR PRIOR: How did he pass away?

BENNET SIBAYA: Apparently he was shot by youngsters in Khayelitsha - he was in his combi, the one we were using that night.  They shot him and left him there.

MR PRIOR: Now you say, sorry - did you attend the trial of the three applicants in the Supreme Court in Cape Town?

BENNET SIBAYA: Which people are you talking about?

MR PRIOR: The applicants before the Committee in respect of the Heidelberg Tavern case.

BENNET SIBAYA: I did not go, I was told not to go - Mr Segal said I was not needed.

MR PRIOR: Please look at the statement which is marked 85, 86 and 87, look at page 87, can you identify that signature?

BENNET SIBAYA: That is my signature.

MR PRIOR: Do you confirm that you made a statement to Mr Lubbe during August of 1997, that is year?  Please look at pages 88, 89, 90, 91 and 92, who's signature appears at the bottom of those pages?

BENNET SIBAYA: That is my signature.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, you're not involved in this matter are you?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I'm glad to hear that.  Seriously, I was going to suggest that maybe Ms Qunta should have first bite as it were at the witness  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And then if there's any questions that arise from that, if I could reserve sort of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I realise that, I thought I'd get you out of the way.
Ms Qunta?

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, can I ask you how old you are?

BENNET SIBAYA: I was born in June 1940.

MS QUNTA: And your - where did you - at the time of this incident when you saw this vehicle, where were you living?

BENNET SIBAYA: At NY72, number 52.

MS QUNTA: And for how long had you been living there?

BENNET SIBAYA: A long time.

MS QUNTA: In terms of years, are you able to give me an idea in terms of years?  How many years, two years, four years, ten years, twenty years?

BENNET SIBAYA: Three years.

MS QUNTA: And prior to that Mr Sibaya, where were you living?