Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-18

ELSIE BUWA: I do not know how to respond to you.  If you are between life and death there is no way you can concentrate on other things, you just face the situation.

MR LOWIES: But you said you saw the instrument, can you not even show us, indicate with your hands the size of the instrument, the length of the instrument?

ELSIE BUWA: I do not know just how long it was, I cannot estimate.  There was - we were being attacked.  When you are being killed, would you notice just how long an instrument is?  Don't make angry, do not make me angry.  These questions are going to make me angry because I am the person who was being killed.  I survived.  I was between life and death and I survived because of God.  He said you can hack my flesh, but you can never touch my soul.

ADV SIGODI: That is God.  That's what she said.

MR LOWIES: Do you know what the size of the panga was, or the object that was used to hack you?

ELSIE BUWA: I do not know, I just saw it raised, but it was long.

MR LOWIES: Do you know who hacked you with the panga?

ELSIE BUWA: It was Mr Zulu himself.  He is the one who started assaulting me.

MR LOWIES: Do you know who stabbed you?

ELSIE BUWA: It was one of the persons, one of those other two people who were with him.  One was attacking Nonosi.

MR LOWIES: Now according to you, what did Mr Zulu do, he hacked you, is that all?

ELSIE BUWA: He hacked me on the head and as they were leaving he kicked me on the head, saying: "Die you dog, you cannot take care of your children."

MR LOWIES: And he had no reason to do so, from your knowledge?

ELSIE BUWA: I've never had any problems with him, I do not know why he would do that.  Even up to this day I'm still wondering why we were being attacked, what had we done, to whom.  They should explain so that when we die we die for something that we are aware of.  They should tell me why he was killing me, what did I do?  He should explain to me, give me the reasons.

MR LOWIES: Did you see whether Nonosi was injured - sorry, did you see when Nonosi was injured?

ELSIE BUWA: We were both injured on the same night.  We were both taken to hospital.

MR LOWIES: But did you see the assault on her?

ELSIE BUWA: Yes, she was sleeping and she had covered herself with a blanket and she was hacked as she slept.  I managed to hide the other children, but I could not hide her because as I went to her the people were already inside the room.

MR LOWIES: Do you know who hacked her?

ELSIE BUWA: It was the people who were in the company of Prince Zulu.

MR LOWIES: But not Zulu himself?

ELSIE BUWA: No, Zulu was by my side, he was assaulting me and the other were there.

MR LOWIES: Do you know whether there was any damage to the television set that night?

ELSIE BUWA: Whose TV?

MR LOWIES: The one in the house, or was there more than one?

ELSIE BUWA: They took the TV and items of clothing.  We did not even have a blanket on that night, everything was taken in the house, including clothing and blankets.  They didn't leave anything in the house.  We were wondering just what we're going to use.  They took the TV and the radio and they also damaged the phone.

MR LOWIES: Now did you recover any of these items that were stolen, that you know of?

ELSIE BUWA: No, not even one.  Not even one was returned till today.

MR LOWIES: Clothing?  Was any clothing recovered that you know of?

ELSIE BUWA: We did not receive anything.  It was our families who donated items of clothing to us, but nothing was ever retrieved.

MR LOWIES: Now the next day, as I understood your evidence earlier on, they came with certain items, the police in the Koyoco and it was about noon, anything that they came with, did you identify it as being your property?

ELSIE BUWA: I did not even want to take a look there.  They said they had brought property and I asked them where did they get those items and no-one gave me a response, and said I will not take anything that I do not know where it came from and you don't even know how these items were removed from the house.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody of the family recover any of the items that day, that you know of?

ELSIE BUWA: No, we never were able to retrieve any of our items.  Anybody who would tell you otherwise is lying.  We were just assisted by our families who donated clothing.  My son had to buy new blankets, we did not even have blankets.

MR LOWIES: Did you tell the police officers, Kekana and the other chap, that you will not be able to identify the suspects because you were scared and you could not look at them properly?

ELSIE BUWA: I still maintain I never made a statement to the police.  I don't even know that Kekana, is he present somewhere around her?  Can he explain, clarify where he saw me?

MR LOWIES: Now at Delmas, did you tell the police there that, and I quote from the statement that I have
"I cannot be able to identify the suspects because I was scared and could not look at them properly."

ELSIE BUWA: No, those are not my words.  That person must have changed what I said and put his own words.  That is not any of my business.

MR LOWIES: What did you say, if you say he changed what you said.

ELSIE BUWA: I told them everything, I informed them that it was Mr Zulu who hacked me.  I told them of the three persons the one that I recognised was Mr Zulu.  I do not know if now they've written something different.  You cannot mix the truth with lies.

MR LOWIES: According to this statement you also told them that you were scared, is it true that you told them that you were scared on the night of the incident?

ELSIE BUWA: I did not mention anything about being afraid.

ADV SIGODI: The word for sacred Koyica(?) ...(Sesotho) is not usaba(?), usaba means to ...(indistinct).

INTERPRETER: Thank you, Chairperson.

ELSIE BUWA: No, I did not.

ADV SIGODI: Did you not tell them that you're afraid?

ELSIE BUWA: No, I never mentioned anything about that.

ADV SIGODI: Were you not afraid of on that day?

ELSIE BUWA: What was there to be scared of, I was dead.  Would a corpse fear anything?  I have to speak the truth.  Even if I die I would have to be honest and tell the truth.  As I'm sitting here today I'm sickly.

MR LOWIES: But in-chief, when Ms Cambanis asked you questions you said that you were scared on that night. -there and then during the attack.

ELSIE BUWA: Who did I tell that to?  Who was I saying this to?

MR LOWIES: You said it here whilst giving evidence.

ELSIE BUWA: Who did I tell that I was afraid?  I want to know that person's name, so that they'll explain to me when did I say this, where.

UNKNOWN: Chair, I didn't keep proper notes but I'm informed by my colleagues that - I did not keep my own notes but I'm informed by my colleagues that she did not say that in-chief, that she was scared.

MR BERGER: Well I don't have a note to that effect.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, I heard "I sit on top of the bed.  Three persons came into my bedroom".  I'm not sure whether she said scared or confused.  Ja, my note is not clear, it could be confused.

MR LAX: That's where there was the debate about the word confused and wondering and ...

MR LOWIES: No it was not them.

MR LAX: That was later, you're quite right.  The wondering happened later, ja.

ADV SIGODI: No, the interpretation was "I was confused while there was this gunfire".

MR LOWIES: Now I take that that's the correct note.

CHAIRPERSON: "I was wondering ..." ...(indistinct).

MR LAX: She also said she didn't know what was happening, words to that effect.

MR LOWIES: On the night when you sat on top of the bed and after you'd hid the children, were you confused?

ELSIE BUWA: Yes, I was confused, wondering what was this gunfire all about.

MR LOWIES: And when they came in you were not confused, when the attackers came into the house?

ELSIE BUWA: I was still confused even there, but I was not so confused that I would not recognise a person that I know.  I know Mr Zulu, I saw him even then.