Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: I can't remember that.  I think he asked to the effect - the instruction you were given to people did not include the making of bombs and it was only Koekemoer who was the expert when it came to the making of bombs, that was his question I believe and you yourself gave instructions to others, trained other people - you had no knowledge to the making of bombs?

MR MALAN: Chairperson, the answer in my notes is the following, he referred you to paragraph 4 of your statement and he read here about the nature of the training and he referred to the "etc" and he was asking if this "etc" also refers to the making of bombs whether he also received instructions about how to make the bombs and then said that you did not receive such an instruction and then he asked you your comment and then you answered that Koekemoer himself did not know how to make a bomb, he asked you to mix the fertiliser and diesel and when you were told that you said Koekemoer himself did not know, you said "well I must have contradicted myself then."   Now the question is, did you misunderstand the question or try to explain why you said Koekemoer himself did not know.  That's the point.

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, then I misunderstood the question and I did not hear him correctly because I know the Chairperson asked if it included bomb making and I said no, it was not included in the training, bomb making that is.

CHAIRPERSON: But what did you misunderstand, that's what I would like to know?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, if I have it right, there were two questions he asked.  The first one was "was it included in our training?" and I said no and the second question I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: What led to your answer - let me finish please - and what led to the fact that you said Koekemoer himself did not know how to make bombs?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, what I meant there was - what I understood was - the advocate asked me if - I do not know Chairperson, I thought he wanted to know why I helped with the making of the bomb.  That's why I said my instruction was - and I received my instruction from Koekemoer but then I contradicted myself when I said that Koekemoer did not know how to make a bomb.  Koekemoer was a trained man in civvy street with regards to these things.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this point will be properly dealt with in argument, Mr Brasher, we're not going to ...[inaudible].

MR BRACHER: The way I phrased the question was that the "ensovoorts" couldn't have included the making of bombs because the first time he saw bombs being made was when he saw Koekemoer was making them or something to that effect but I don't need to go any further than that.
	Mr Vlok, when did you first know that General Viljoen was taking part in the election?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, I don't remember exactly when and I am speaking under correction and I do not want to lie, I do not want to dare giving you an answer - it was at the election and the fact that he actually took part, so let's say the day he took part in the election.

CHAIRPERSON: You were at the office of the AWB is that not true?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the office of the AWB not know at least a week before the election that Viljoen was going to take part in the elections?

J H VLOK: They should have, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How come did you not know?

J H VLOK: I cannot remember, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, I want to tell you that I don't believe you because everybody has given evidence that the AWB is not just an army, it's also a political organisation and I cannot believe that you could go through this time of preparing for war without taking notice of what was going on in the politics of this country and if that is your answer, tell me that is what you did.

J H VLOK: Please repeat?

MR BRACHER: Let me just start it again.  I'll put it simpler to you - are you telling this Commission that you moved from being an ordinary office worker of the AWB to bombing innocent civilians without keeping track of the political events in this country?

J H VLOK: I don't know if I understand you correctly but my answer is I had instruction which I had to execute and I acted on behalf of the AWB and I committed this act.

MR BRACHER: If your instruction was to prevent the election did you go ahead with your activities without knowing what was going on in the election down to the most basic thing as to who the candidates were?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, I knew who the candidates were, unfortunately I cannot remember all of them but I continued with my instruction because at that stage it was my instruction and I executed it in the name of the AWB - it was to stop the election and to enforce a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Vlok you've just said that you cannot remember if you knew or if you knew it was at the moment of the election that Viljoen decided to take part in the elections.  Now you are saying you knew who the candidates were but you can't remember who all of them were but surely the name of Viljoen, you must remember that, you must remember whether he took part in the elections?

J H VLOK: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's your position, did you know or did you not?

J H VLOK: I did know Chairperson, but I can't remember the exact date.  I think the question earlier was when, I cannot remember exactly when - it was shortly before the elections, it's	then I realised Viljoen would take part in the elections because it was on the pamphlets and it was also on television news.

CHAIRPERSON: Now before we speak of Mr Viljoen - without trying to make a suggestion that it's not true, each of the applicants came here and testified and this includes you, to the effect that the fact that Mr Viljoen decided to take part in the elections, the AWB was not certain whether he had a double agenda and you continued because the possibility still existed that he would also take part in the war, can you remember that?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was that aspect discussed amongst your co-members, did you discuss it with anyone that this is the possibility - maybe he's taking part in the elections but we know that there's a good possibility that he's also going to take part in the war at the same time.  Did you discuss this with anyone?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Chairperson, I didn't physically discuss it with someone but I know there was talk also at head office that there's a possibility, the doubt was there whether he is going to take part in the election - he registered.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who said that?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, I cannot remember the exact people but I know it was said at head office.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's quite important, Mr Vlok.  The status of Mr Viljoen was discussed and what his capacity would be in the war or the election - it's two opposing tactics - why can you not say who told you this or who discussed this?

J H VLOK: The importance of the matter is, is that I acted on behalf of the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we know that, Mr Vlok, I'm asking you a simple question.  Why can you not say who discussed Viljoen's status in the whole affair at the head office?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, if I remember correctly it would have been General Andries and the leader himself must have been there, Chairperson, Eugene Terreblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: And Andries who?

J H VLOK: Andries Terreblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?