Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I do not know what happened.  Information came up that Abel Choane was present.  We had been looking for him and we could not find him.  Who caught him, I do not know, who arrested him, I do not know.

MR SAMUEL: Where did the torture take place on Abel Choane?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It was at Fountain where I was present, I do not know whether he was tortured anywhere else where I was not present.

MR SAMUEL: Okay, let's concentrate on the time that you were present.  Can you remember the date that you administered this torture where you were present at Fountain Street?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I do not recall the date.  He was not the only person we handled, we handled many people.  I do not recall the date therefore.

MR SAMUEL: Could you perhaps give us an indication which year was it?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: If I recall, it could have been around 91,92, if I remember well.

MR SAMUEL: Are you sure, this is the question I'm asking now, I'm asking on you know the request of Mr Abel Choane, are you sure you were ever involved in torturing him especially in the method that you described earlier on, that of tubing him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I was present, yes and we could have been six, if not seven, some - together with white people and some were just standing not torturing.

MR SAMUEL: You said it was around 1991 thereabouts that you tortured him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Could I just confirm something with my client?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Samuel, we would like to know, if you could assist us, do you agree with - does your client agree with what he is saying or is there any dispute and if so, what are the disputes?

MR SAMUEL: That is what I'm trying to establish right now.  I've got a statement from my client, I'm trying to reconcile that with the evidence that has been given by the applicant.  He says he was tortured by the Security Police, although he cannot remember if you were present or not, but he denies every being tortured by way of tubing.  What do you have to say about that?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: The people from the Security Branch did not use the tube method, the Askaris, we Askaris used that method.  Maybe he does not remember me because my hair was permed on that day.

MR SAMUEL: Would you say the extent and the severity of the torture on that day could have affected him in such a way that even given the fact that he was the recipient of this torture by tubing, he wouldn't recall the person administering that?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He did not know us.  During that tubing he even mentioned the name of Oupa Mashile, he said Oupa Mashile saw him with his colleague in the kombi when they were going to Welkom.   He was telling those white people that Oupa saw him and Oupa never arrested him at the time when he was wanted, because I did not know him, I only knew him from a photo.

ADV SANDI: Mr Samuel, just for my own clarity, does the victim, your client, does he remembered being tortured by a person with permed hair?

MR SAMUEL: That doesn't appear from the statement so far, but I can quickly establish that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was Mr Choane ever tubed by anybody,  because he won't forget that if he had that horrible experience?

MR SAMUEL: Well my instructions are that he was never tubed, but he would like, with the permission of the Committee, to explain the nature of torture he was subjected to by the Security Forces.

JUDGE DE JAGER: We are at the moment hearing an application from this applicant about what he did wrong, so we're not hearing evidence about what other people did wrong, that was heard by the HRV Committee, but this man confesses that he's done something wrong and now it seems that he's confessing about something he never did, or never did vis a vis your client.

CHAIRPERSON: And again he's under cross-examination so we wouldn't allow that.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, since my instructions are that my client does not - denies, it's not a question of not recall, he denies ever being tortured by that method of tubing, I cannot take this case any further, or this line of questioning any further than that.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose this is a question that is outstanding.  Mr Thejane said that whilst he was tortured, he even mentioned that Oupa Mashile saw him, but never arrested him.  Would he confirm that or deny that, that he said that whilst he was tortured?

MR SAMUEL: Well that particular statement is denied by the victim.  There is another statement that he said, but not that specific statement, but it is not quite relevant at this stage to these proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Samuel.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, any questions?

UNKNOWN: I have a few questions Chairperson, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Thejane, you have testified that you also tortured the brother of Mr Abel Choane, am I correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, you are correct.

UNKNOWN: Are you also applying for amnesty in respect of his torture?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, I am.

UNKNOWN: What was the political affiliation of the brother of Abel Choane?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I did not know him.  The person we sent infiltrated them and I was told that, or I learned that this person was a teacher.  Which organisation he belonged to I did not know but I knew that he was Abel Choane's brother.

UNKNOWN: What was the reason for torturing him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: The reason for torturing him was to tell us the whereabouts of his brother, because we had already arrested a person who was going with Abel Choane.

UNKNOWN: How would you say the torture of the brother of Abel Choane was politically motivated if you did not know his political affiliation?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I don't know, two or three of them were arrested from the tavern and we were told to torture him to tell us where Abel Choane was because Sgt Barnard and them wanted him.

UNKNOWN: Who arrested them?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I was present when they were arrested in the tavern.

UNKNOWN: Who identified them for the arrest to you?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I mentioned that one of our members infiltrated Abel Choane's brother and the other teacher and they introduced each other, "This is Abel Choane's brother, this is so-and-so, this is so-and-so."  Now this person went outside and he took a thorough look at a photo.  We had Abel Choane's photo and a photo of the other Welkom chap, so he went outside to take a thorough look at the photo and this person who was working with us then came to us to tell us.  Luit Landman said we should then go and verify.  We should buy a beer and we should be satisfied.  We should actually look where Jack Baloi was sitting and verify as to whether the person in the photo is the person who is inside.  We went inside, bought some beers, pretended to be drinking, we took our guns and we made them to lie on the ground and we arrested them.  We took them into the kombi.

UNKNOWN: You are also applying for the torture of Jikila, am I correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: You are correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you give us all the methods that you used in torturing Jikila, what was done to him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Jikila was arrested at his house.  We took him to the office.  We then moved them to the police station in Botshabelo.  The next day we took him to the fifth floor of Fountain building.  He was interrogated but not by us.  People from the ground floor asked him questions and afterwards they brought him to the fifth floor.  We wrapped him in a blanket and we tubed him.

UNKNOWN: Is that the only method you used to torture him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He was assaulted with hands in between, like he was being slapped, but that was the main method of retrieving information from a person, that is the tubing method.