Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I say that because I know that through my explanation he had a clash with Tsoametsi, then he took a gun and he nearly shot him.  Then I stopped him.

MR VISSER: You see, Mr Motsamai, what Commissioner de Jager has put to you is really the point, is it not.  If you are to be believed in that you came back from bombing City Mzuzwana's house and you told Ngo we bombed Jani Mohapi's house, the question must be why did you lie to him and is it not then true, on the probabilities, that you wanted to cause trouble, further trouble between the Mohapi's and Ngo, if you told him that.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is not so.

MR VISSER: All right.  That is a short and sweet answer.  Speaking of problems with people, it appears from your applications, if I may sidetrack myself for moment, Mr Chairman, it appears from your application that there were more than one occasion in which you did something unpleasant to either a Mohapi or a Mzuzwana.  Would that be a fair assessment of your application?  I do not want to go through them all.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Under instructions, yes, that is true.

MR VISSER: Yes, so you say, but is it not also true that Jani Mohapi has a sister by the name of Selina, S E L I N, I N A, I think, Mr Chairman, to your knowledge?  I am sorry.  May I rephrase that question.  I am terribly sorry.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Maybe that is so, maybe I remember only the Sotho name.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: But I know that there is somebody called Selina there.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I am sorry, Mr Motsamai, I got my wires crossed.  Is, what I really want to ask you, is it true that Jani Mohapi is married to City Mzuzwana's sister called Selina?  That, those are the correct facts.  Jani Mohapi's wife is the sister to City Mzuzwana.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is true.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Is it not also true that Selina, on occasion, attacked you, grabbed you by the throat and tried to throttle you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: She was not attacking me, but she was preventing me to take her younger sister.  We were sent that we should go and fetch her younger sister, but she was not attacking me.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Well, Mr Motsamai, I am told an entirely different story, but I am not going to embarrass you by telling this story here in public.  So, we will let that slide.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is why I say your people.  You are taking a wrong direction.  They told you a lie.  I was in the office, I was working in that office.  You do not know what was happening in that office.  They are busy telling a lie.

MR VISSER: Yes, well, you are causing great merriment with your observations, Mr Motsamai, but let us go on with the questions and try to finish.  Is it true that Selina choked you or attempted to throttle you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: Is it also true that you laid a criminal charge of assault against her?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not remember well.

MR VISSER: Is it also true that you later withdrew that charge against her?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I say I do not remember well.

MR VISSER: I am asking you whether you laid a charge and later withdrew it.  I am not asking you when that happened.

ADV DE JAGER: And as I understand him answering, he does not remember whether he laid a charge and he does not remember whether he had withdrawn the charge.

MR VISSER: Is that what you tried to say, Mr Motsamai, that you do not even remember laying a charge against Selina?  Is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I do not remember.  If I did lay a charge MR should be there.  That is why I say I do not remember.

MR VISSER: All right.  Let us go on, Mr Motsamai.  Now, you were quite emphatic, were you not, that during the bombing of this house of City Mzuzwana there were three of you. It was yourself, Mamome and Ngo.  I am correct am I not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You are talking the truth and we left him in the car.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now, if we are to believe Mr Ngo that, in what he says, that he participated in the attack of a house of City Mzuzwana which he thought was the house of Max Makubalo, then I want to put to you this.  That, according to Mr Ngo, Tsoametsi and Mtyala were also involved in that incident.
	Mr Chairman, I am referring you now to, again, to page 12, item (b), paragraph, capitals, bundle C, because I cannot refer you to a record page number.  	
	Now, what do you say of that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would say it was myself, Sergeant Mamome, who attacked the house.  Ngo was in the car.  What he says there, that is how he put it, but I emphasise that the truth and the whole truth, it was myself, Sergeant Mamome, who attacked the house.

MR VISSER: All right.  So, (intervention) ...
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, you know, in all fairness to Ngo and Motsamai, I think there was some variance between this written application and the evidence as it was led here and it might happen that what is being put here is not entirely correct, did not become the evidence.  There were some qualifications.

ADV DE JAGER: Isn't his application evidence before us under oath?  The document itself?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, you will recall that he, when he testified in the main he used the written document and in some instances it was at variance with what was stated in this, in the written application and I also (intervention) ...

CHAIRPERSON: Where does he refer to it in his written application, Mr Memani?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: He does not refer to it you see, Mr Chairman, in his written application.  He refers to it in, at page 12, but as I remember it, Mr Chairman, he chose not to repeat it in his written application, which is just one of the little things that happened here.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, exactly, that is my point.  Then we do not, I cannot recall exactly what his evidence was, but it may not be, it may be that what is stated there is at variance with what is, with what was stated in the, in evidence.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I find it frightening that counsel can object and it does, on his own admission, does not even know what he is talking about.  Unless he tells me that I am putting evidence which was not there or which is incorrect, I think my learned friend should keep quiet.

ADV MEMANI: No, Mr Visser, we are not saying that you are putting what is said here, you are telling us that you are putting what is stated in these papers and I do not not understand why, in this forum, we have to be rude to each other.  I do not know whether there is no, why there is no gentlemanly conduct between counsel here.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what precisely is your objection?

ADV MEMANI: I am bringing in a caveat.  I am saying, in honesty, that I cannot recall what his evidence exactly was, but there is also a danger that what is being put to the witness is not what was said by Ngo in his evidence here.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it is what he said in his original sworn application.

ADV MEMANI: But, Mr Chairman, we cannot turn a blind eye to the fact that this was qualified and they were, this was qualified in the written application as well and some qualifications were made during evidence to the written qualification, to the written application as well.

CHAIRPERSON: But you ...

ADV MEMANI: .. this was qualified, and this was qualified in the written application as well, as some qualifications were made during evidence to the written application as well.

CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know if there was in this case, and you can't remember?

ADV MEMANI: And my learned friend can't say that this was actually the evidence, and if he cannot say that this was actually the evidence, then he cannot put it to Mr Motsamai, that this was actually Ngo's evidence.