Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) hanging of the foetus and the knocking in of nails.  Were you going to buttress it up by taking possibly some more steps in order to discredit His Grace the Archbishop?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know it would be laughable if it were not so tragic, that you don't see the ridiculous nature of the evidence that you are giving, General.  Did you know that there had earlier been a Commission of Inquiry in relation to the South African Council of Churches?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You didn't know that?

EDWARD WEBB: The South African Council of Churches, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: Whilst Bishop Tutu, because before he was Archbishop, was the main figure before His Lordship Mr Justice Eloff, the Judge President of the Transvaal as it then was?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know that that was an event which was given the widest possible publicity?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And in which the Archbishop had set forth his opposition to the government, his support for sanctions as a legitimate way of bringing about change for his identification with the United Democratic Front as a democratic organisation?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you bother before you authorised this action, to find out anything about the Archbishop, other than what you tell us some unknown so-called anthropologist had reported to one or other of your underlings?

EDWARD WEBB: Bishop Tutu was a prominent figure and there were always articles about him in the newspapers and I also got the information through our channels.

GEORGE BIZOS: And this anthropologist was right and the people had, before this ridiculous act was committed in relation to him, thought that he was worthy of the Nobel Prize for Peace.  Did you take that into consideration when you authorised this act?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.  I was not aware of it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Superstition is it consistent with the leader of the Church of the Province, to give it its correct name, commonly referred to as the Anglican Church, is that consistent?

EDWARD WEBB: No, but nobody talked about the superstitions of Archbishop Tutu.

MR SIBANYONI: You see because if we take your statement on its face value, without you adding the ...(indistinct) to influence the employees, it may be interpreted that if this was given publicity, that behold the black Archbishop is indulging in superstitious practices.  Was that your intention?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: General, was this the first project that was put to you for approval relating to Region 6?

EDWARD WEBB: It was the first or the second, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Well was it before the Athlone bombing?  Because that was the 30th of August.

EDWARD WEBB: That was the 30th of August.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't recall, I think it was the first.

EDWARD WEBB: According to my application it only says "middle to end of '89".  There's not a specific date, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm just looking for a reference, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because if it was the first project, what did you think of it at the time?  You know, taking into account your military background, fighting wars, training soldiers and now you come across and the first project is about hanging a baboon foetus and driving nails, what did you personally thing, feel?  Did you really think it was a serious operation that was destined for success?

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, it was a strange suggestion but it was also brilliant in so far as would it work it would have been brilliant.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you got a clear recollection of Mr Verster coming to you to ask for your approval for this to be done?

EDWARD WEBB: Reasonably, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, a sufficiently reasonable memory of it.  Did you or he laugh when this proposal was made?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Strange, because Mr Verster said that he thought that this was a joke and I would have thought that either he or you or both of you would have laughed at this brilliant joke.

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: We're trying to find a reference of someone who we remember but we can't find the reference, but I must put it to you.  If anyone had said that it was, the purpose was in order to show the superstitions of the Bishop himself, would that be correct or incorrect?

EDWARD WEBB: Not according the my briefing.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you watch with interest what the result of this was?

EDWARD WEBB: I got feedback, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you get a report-back?

EDWARD WEBB: I got a report-back, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: From whom?

EDWARD WEBB: From Col Verster.

GEORGE BIZOS: What did he say?

EDWARD WEBB: He said that the labourer found the foetus and he removed it and afterwards we learnt that Bishop Tutu was not even briefed about it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was intended that the Bishop should be there, when the planning was done?

EDWARD WEBB: No, but the aim was against the employees.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but you say that Mr Verster told you that the Archbishop was not even there.

EDWARD WEBB: Afterwards we heard that the Archbishop did not even know about it because it had been removed by one of his employees and buried and he didn't even brief the Archbishop about it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it said to you that it would not only be a foetus but also eight nails, about eight - if I remember correctly, about eight inches or ten inches long, would be driven into the ground?  What would that be a symbol for?

EDWARD WEBB: I have no idea, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Digging nails into the ground.

EDWARD WEBB: I have no idea.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Might have had something to do with some foreboding of death?  Digging nails into the ground.

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you ever tried to find out?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who would know who this anthropologist was?

EDWARD WEBB: It should be Mr Verster.

CHAIRPERSON: Or the operative from whom the project originated, it might have come from further down.

EDWARD WEBB: Possibly, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was the Head of Region 9?

EDWARD WEBB: I can't remember just like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: The performance of this act you told the Chairman, was when?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't know.  It's mentioned in the application, it's from mid-1989 to the end of the year but he didn't know and he also didn't know whether it was before or after the Early Learning Centre.

GEORGE BIZOS: It was either the first or second thing that you were asked to approve?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You must have a very clear memory if it was one of the only two things that this complicated organisation did.

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson, Region 6 is a small part of the CCB, the CCB had many operations and the Special Services had many projects.  It's not a clear recollection, I had a lot of other things to do.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I'm going to put to you that the only basis upon which this makes any sense is that which has been deposed to by Mr Barnard, which was consistent with the work of the CCB to eliminate people within the Republic of South Africa.

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if anything was to intimidate Bishop Tutu, it would surely be the death of his son and more particularly if the cause of death was by poison use by what you call witch-doctors.

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson, Mr Tutu was not a death target.

GEORGE BIZOS: Not the Bishop, his son.

EDWARD WEBB: Neither his son.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm going on to another aspect, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to ask a question before it slips my mind.  You say that the CCB was a small section of your command, can you just give us any idea of the size of the Security Forces personnel, how big was it?