Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DREYER: : Let's just continue with the military precision.  Now we are at the scene of the road-block, according to the testimony of Mr Matthews, it was put by the Chairman to him that some of the persons who were shot there;  that they them-selves - the bakkie that could not start, they had to push it to start it.   Do you remember that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : And Mr Matthews testimony to that was quite adamant.   He said:  `No Mr Chairperson, we were ordered.   Ourselves helped to push that vehicle.'   Do you remember that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : Now I wish to know from you, is that military precision when members of the AWB, with official AWB emblems so that everybody could see they are members of the AWB, would push vehicles with their bare hands so that their finger-prints would be all over the vehicle.   Is that military precision?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : It was military precision to me because they complied with the instruction that I gave to them.   I wanted them to start the vehicle.

MR DREYER: : And such military precision that they leave evidence all over the place?   They pick up the shells, not all of them.

MS VAN DER WALT: : The testimony was that all the shells were picked up, and the application of Mr Martin was amended.

MR MALAN: : Ms Van der Walt, you have not given any notice to us that you amended Mr Kloppers application.

MS VAN DER WALT: : I wish to draw the Committee's attention that his testimony is corrected.

MR MALAN: And you did not need to amend this.  I wish to point out that you should do it.

MS VAN DER WALT: : Mr Chairperson, the instruction that Mr Dreyer has of Mr Oelofse, is that he does not oppose the application, but he puts Mr Kloppers under cross-examination with reference to his client then.   His cross-examination would go beyond the instruction then.  It seems to me that he is opposing the application.   I'm not sure where he is leading us.

MR DREYER: : Mr Chairperson, if my learned friend would think about it, I stated categorically that I had no interest in the opposed opposition of the application and I would put it clearly that I ask questions that had relevance to the question whether there was an instruction inside the higher ...(indistinct) of the AWB.   This applicant has testified many times that the AWB are a militant and paramilitary institution, and that we would expect that the instructions from such a structure would be given as such, and that is why I am cross-examining the witness to find out whether it was a military instruction or not.   I do not wish to ask him about the merits or not, or what happened at the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: : I don't think he is one of his instructions, not to oppose the application in his question.   I think that he is entitled, because your client is really saying that he received a military order which emanated from proper high structures within the AWB, which has been described by the applicant as a paramilitary institution, and I don't think he has exceeded the limits of his entitlement.

MR DREYER: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Kloppers I am still on the subject of military precision.   What was your impression of Mr Japie Oelofse as a military person.   How did you get to know him?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I looked upwards to him.   I looked ...

MR DREYER: : How did you experience him as a military person.  Did you see him as a committed soldier?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I saw him as a true military person.

MR DREYER: : Are you... do you know his military breakdown?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Not really.

MR DREYER: : Did you recognise him as a person who would give you just any instruction without giving any detail of what he wanted?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : Are you telling the Court then that he left it to you to interpret the instructions.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : He respected me as an officer because I was responsible for his security.

MR DREYER: : Continue.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : He respected me so much that I knew what to do and I was personally responsible for his security, as when I received instructions from him, we complied with it.

MR DREYER: : Please listen to me.   I am asking if you got to know him as someone who gave you vaguely outlined orders and then expected of you to colour in the order according to your own discretion.   Is that how you knew him?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No, that's not so.

MR DREYER: : Well then, what else happened here?   Isn't that exactly what happened here?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No, that's not correct.

MR DREYER: : Well then I will put it to you as follows.   You say and we are now dealing with your version.   You say that you heard from a man, whom you regarded as a senior commander within the authority structure of the AWB, the following orders:  that you should obtain weapons and ammunition;  that you should establish a road-block.   I want to see corpses.  Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Yes.

MR DREYER: : That's the only order which you received?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : I will ask you once more.   That is the only order that you received?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : The order which was given to me was that the revolution would begin on the night of the 12th of December 1993, and I expect of you seeing as you have held a road-block before and executed it with precision, that nothing had gone wrong, that I would expect the same of you again, but I was not only looking for arms and ammunition, I want corpses.   This is the real McCoy.   That was his order.

MR DREYER: : Let's just accept and I want it stated clearly.  Let's accept that this is what you heard.   Did you ask General Oelofse if it is the way that you said it:  `General please explain to me what you mean by when you say - I want to see corpses.   When do you want to see these corpses?   In which manner do you want to see these corpses.   These corpses which you are talking about, are these corpses which we will see during the course of the revolution or when the war breaks out'.   Did you ever ask him that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No I did not ask him that.   I understood clearly what he meant by a road-block and the ANC, SACP as our target which we would shoot.

MR DREYER: : And what you are saying to me therefore is that according to your version, you heard from him:  `I want to see corpses.'   There and then you decided that you would hold a road-block;  that you would identify people and if they were totally inactive military persons and merely said to you:  `I have a political affiliation as a member of the ANC', you would shoot them there and then.   Is that what you are saying?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No, not according to my discretion but according to his order.

MR DREYER: : Very well.   Let's then accept your answer as you saw it.   Let me ask you a follow-up question.   What does this have to do, in any way, with the original and chief order that you should obtain arms and ammunition.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Arms and ammunition was not the chief order.

MR DREYER: : But I don't understand.   How can you say that that was not the chief order.   Was the chief order merely to go out and simply shoot members of the ANC on a random basis?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I don't know.   All I know is that our order was to establish a road-block, to identify ANC, SACP members, and to shoot them.

CHAIRPERSON: : Mr Kloppers, if what you were told by General Oelofse was the revolution is going to start or is beginning, I want to see the bodies, go and mount a road-block;   how do you, on that basis do you come to a thing that you must kill ANC people?