Human Rights Violation Hearings — Alexandra — 1996-10-28

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: I have been sick since 1965, suffering from high blood pressure and a heart attack.  I got treatment when international doctors came, otherwise I have been taking painkillers and other medicine I drink with water.  I stayed in the hospital, the prison hospital, for a long time.  I was suffering.  I was suffering.  I was suffering.   (Witness very upset).

MR LEWIN: Would you like to stop?
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MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: You can ask me whatever you want to ask me.  You can go ahead with your questions.

MR LEWIN: I would like to take you back to the days in the sixties because you describe yourself as the volunteer chief in the 1963's.  Now was this for the ANC?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Yes, it was for the ANC.

MR LEWIN: And it was at a time when the ANC had been already banned for three years.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: I was a volunteering chief before it was banned.

MR LEWIN: What I want to ask is when the security police accused you of being dangerous would you describe yourself as a dangerous person?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: No I didn't see myself as a dangerous person.  But I didn't allow them to do as they pleased.  I used to beat them.  I was very healthy and fit at that time.

MR LEWIN: And the Sabotage Act that you were charged under and sentenced for, would you describe your activity as sabotage?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: There is something that I did ... (nothing further on tape) ... they refused to give women childrens' birth certificates.  They used to arrest them.  They came to the Dutch Reformed Church.  I commanded my boys, together with them we went to burn the pass office with my boys and that is the sabotage that they charged me for.  I would like you to please tell my brother's congregation that I am sorry because I gave that conduct, I gave that instruction that his church must be burnt down.  One day he told the community that I am the one who burnt the Dutch Reformed house.

MR LEWIN: Could I also ask about the boys that you say you were helping to get out of the country.  This is very early
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days.  Were they going out for training?  Why were they leaving?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: They were going for training.

MR LEWIN: Tata I have no further questions.  I would like to pass back to our Chairperson who might ask some more.  Thank you very much.

DR RANDERA: Mr Tlale, good morning.  Can you just tell us when you joined the ANC.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: I joined it in 1947.

DR RANDERA: And are you still a member of the ANC?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Yes.  I am a valid member.  I have got a card.

DR RANDERA: Can you tell us at the time, you are now 72 years old, at the time of your imprisonment how many children did you have and how old were they?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: I had three children.  The one is here next to me but I don't remember how old were they.  She was nine years old.

DR RANDERA: Tata you talk about having spent 12 years on Robben Island and those from my reading of people who have been there was some of the darkest days on that prison.  Can you tell us something about your experiences on the island.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: We used to go to the quarry to dig out the stones.  We would crack these stones with hammers.  On one day I was very sick.  We had to go and have our meal.  I couldn't walk on my own, I had to be supported.  They didn't care, even if you were sick you had to go to the quarry.  They told you that you wanted to take the land off the boss.  I suffered a lot.  I was sick all the time.  I spent six years in hospital, sometimes I would just sleep without being given medication.

DR RANDERA: Were you allowed any exercise initially when you
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got there?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Yes, I was allowed exercise but the moment I started becoming very sick I couldn't further with the exercises.  All I did was just lying on my mat.

DR RANDERA: And you said the first time you were given medical treatment was when the international team arrived, international doctors arrived.  How long was that after you went to the island?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: It was already five years.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

YASMINE SOOKA: Tata could I ask at the time you were charged with sabotage did you have any lawyer assisting you in court?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Yes, we had a lawyer at court.   His surname is Bishoff.  It was only him.

YASMINE SOOKA: Tata was it just you who were being charged or were there other people being charged with you?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: It was me, Comrade Ramagade and Comrade Martin.

YASMINE SOOKA: Tata when you saw Luke Smart in prison at that time had he also been tortured or had that not begun to happen yet?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: He was already tortured because when he came in he talked to me.  He told me they have done with me, I am done.  When I was talking to him he was from Guguletu in Cape Town, we used to meet each other on certain occasions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, Tata.  Commissioner Mkhize has a question to ask as well.

MS MKHIZE: What did you do before September 1963?  I mean were you employed, were you earning a living?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: I had a shop but they closed it down.

MS MKHIZE: Can you give the Commission more information.
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Was it closed down because you were detained.  If you say they closed it down what does that mean?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: They said to my wife the shop cannot operate in my absence.

MS MKHIZE: If you have information can you tell us as a Commission how was it closed down?  Did your family sell all the goods which were inside?  Can you just clarify as to exactly how did they round off that account.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Whilst I was still on trial in Pretoria my wife came, they told her that she must stop selling in the shop. Then I spoke to George Bishoff.  I asked him to get her power of attorney and they granted her.  And they came and took this paper away and they told her that she must stop running the business.

MS MKHIZE: Since we hear from you that you were a card carrying member of the ANC did they then support your family or how did your family survive?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: She was selling vet cakes with her mother.  They were surviving on vet cakes.  They were selling chickens door to door.  They used to slaughter chickens and sell them door to door.  This very same daughter of mine next to me.  She was very young then.

MS MKHIZE: We can hear you.  We understand this hurts you a lot when you realise that your child had to go selling door to door because of our past government.  Can we proceed.  Again if you can talk furthermore I just want you to explain one thing.  We can see here it is written when they were beating you they damaged your eye.  You didn't explain to us.

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Gebe hit me with a fist.  I inserted a glass in my eye in St Johns last week. It couldn't see.  It is Gepe.
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YASMINE SOOKA: ... Gepe's proper name was?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: No, I don't know it well.  I only knew his name because they used to call him Baas Gepe.  That is when I noted it.

YASMINE SOOKA: And you mentioned I think Majene.  Is that right?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: Yes, that is right.

YASMINE SOOKA: Are there any other people who tortured you whose names you remember?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: The other one is Captain van Rensburg.  It was Van Rensburg and Gepe and Majene.  And Ferreira.

YASMINE SOOKA: Is there anything that you would like to tell the Commission before you finish?

MAHLOMOLA ISAAC TLALE: No, I have got nothing else to say to the Commission.