Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-11

GEORGE BIZOS: You told us of how important the election was for your personally, can you tell us how important your organisation, the African National Congress regarded the election?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm not a leader of the ANC but I know when I worked within the ANC, even at negotiations, the ANC was prepared to bend over backwards to ensure there was a democratic election in this country.  It went - they made many compromises which I think today, I think many people are very unhappy about it, but the fact that we wanted to have a platform where we could govern this country and give people the basic dignity of just voting for people of their choice, I think the organisation would have gone to any lengths to ensure that that happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Would have gone to any lengths to ensure what?

MR LAX: Just repeat that on the mike.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That the democratic election took place.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did the ANC want only a portion, or the whole of the population to take part in the election?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think it was important for the organisation to ensure that we have the largest majority of people and consensus around all the political parties in this country to take part in this election because that I think would ensure that there would be peace in this country.

GEORGE BIZOS: Prior to the 28th of March did you know whether or not the IFP was committed to taking part in a free and fair election or whether they had an anti-election campaign?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think it's common knowledge for anyone who read newspapers at the time in that day, the IFP was opposed to elections at that stage, together with some right-wing political parties.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know what the purpose of this march was that was to take place on the 28th of March?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It was the launch of the IFP anti-election campaign.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would any disruptive, violent conduct by the ANC at the time, by you or anyone else in the ANC, any public attack against the IFP or anyone else, do you know whether that would have served the interests of the ANC's policy at the time which you told us wanted a free and peaceful election?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think contrary, I think that would have served the aims and objectives of those people opposed to democracy coming about in this country.

GEORGE BIZOS: Not the ANC?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Not the ANC.

GEORGE BIZOS: On the Sunday evening, did you get any information about what was to happen or may happen on the Monday morning?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: On Sunday the 27th I was called, Sunday evening the 27th I was called by the late Commissioner Gadu who informed me that they received information to the effect that the march will be used as a decoy to attack Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he tell you anything else?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: He also informed me, and I just want to say, Chair, I get a bit confused because I had a meeting with him on the Monday morning too, so some of the things I'm not sure whether took place the Sunday or the Monday, but we had a - he phoned me the Sunday and early Monday we also had a meeting, so some of the things become a bit confused, but he also informed me at some stage that the police had been phoned to assist with protecting Shell House and he also informed me at some stage that the President had phoned the late President De Klerk to also inform him about the information that's come to our attention.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's get the President and former President correctly, were you told that the then President of the ANC telephoned the former President of South Africa?

GEORGE BIZOS: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you were also told that the police were informed about fears about Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.   I also spoke to a Andrew Sithlabane who's better known as Joe my baby, he's the head of installations of the ANC, he works directly under me on Sunday evenings and we then had a discussion and he agreed that he would phone Captain Wilkins who was the Liaison Officer from the police at that time for the area and he phoned me back to inform me that he has spoken to Captain Wilkins and assurances have been given that the police would assist in securing Shell House.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told that Captain Wilkins had given such an undertaking?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you expect a small - if there was any, if there was going to be an attack against Shell House, did you expect a small or a large group to take part?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There were many options but I think the most viable one we thought about was the issue of a big group of marchers storming the Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: With so-called traditional weapons or firearms including AK47s and other automatic weapons and hand-guns did you know whether the IFP at the time had access to such a fire arms?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I was aware through our intelligence reports and also we were in the toll once, when we were shot on by IFP members with AK47s and based on intelligence reports we were aware they were fairly well armed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you think either on the Sunday or Monday morning that your 20 security persons with a fire power that you had would be enough to ward off any attack by the IFP?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The first thing, one of the things I told Joe my baby on the Sunday when we spoke about, was to re-enforce the present number of guards with people who were not on duty that day to try to increase the numbers, but the fact that they gave me the assurance and also Commissioner Galie said they spoke to the police, that the police would assist in terms of the protection of Shell House, I had no doubt in my mind because in the future there was no problem with them assisting, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You're a bit indistinct.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As Joe my baby, Andrew Sithlabane ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The surname?

CHAIRPERSON: Spell the name please.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: A-N-D-R-E-W.  The surname is: S-I-Y-H-L-A-B-A-N-E.

MR LAX: You referred to a name, I can't, is it Joe my baby ...(intervention)

GARY JOHN KRUSER: He's normally referred to as Joe my baby, we normally called him Joe my baby, his proper name is Andrew Sithlabane.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who did you expect, if there was going to be an attack, who did you expect to have the primary responsibility for the defence of Shell House, your security department or the police?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think the responsibility lied with the statutory force at that stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Statutory force?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You mean police and the army?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: What time did you come to work on the Monday morning, the 28th of March?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I arrived just before 08h00 on Monday morning.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see anything untoward along the way?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I stayed in Yeoville which is north of Johannesburg and Shell House, and on driving through Hillbrow and Joubert Park I saw people fleeing from armed groups of marchers.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any apparent reason why people were fleeing?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I could only draw the conclusion that they were being assaulted or attacked by the marchers.

GEORGE BIZOS: What sort of groups of marchers did you see on the way in early in the morning? ...(inaudible)

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The marchers were about groups of 50, they were not very big groups of marchers and they were armed with what they would call traditional weapons, pangas, assegai, kierries and that sort of thing.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did I understand you to say that when the marchers came, did only some people run away or did all in front of them run away?