Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Now let's go now to the specific.  At the time these two incidents happened, I understand that there was an announcement on the 16th of January that the arms struggle is suspended and this operation happened in February.  Can you explain that, whether that what they did was still in line with APLA and PAC?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: There were numerous problems to be very specific here, so in that sense that when, in the January the 16th when the PAC leadership announced the moratorium on arms struggle, that in the honest true sense, it was not done in a manner of consultation with the Commanders also on the ground, so also we had to battle and try to pass the message through so it would have been very difficult within a week of that specific period, it needed time to consult all forces and also to make them to agree, because even the party itself took a very hasty decision in agreeing into participation into negotiation at the time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you be able to just tell the Committee your Command structure, where the members of APLA, that is the Commanders or members on the ground, if there is an announcement, they hear on the radio, or TV or in the paper they read that the arms struggle is suspended, so they have to stop everything?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: No, it does not go like that and it never go like that.  We were a military - I'm not going to lecture, we all know what the military command structure was.  It's a fact yes, the politicians did take a decision, but it needed also us as Commanders at various levels of command also to communicate that and unfortunately at that specific time there was not a single military Commander that talked, other than what was read in the newspapers, because we had to make that into reality.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Would I be correct to say that though you were also members of the High Command, you were also taken by surprise by this, by the decision?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Positively yes, I was in Harare when this thing - I read it on the Zimbabwe Herald, this thing happened, we never set a single day discuss this.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And it was subsequent to that and you have to do the damage control thereafter.

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: That was it, it was crisis management.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I think that's all I wanted to come with.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr van der Heever, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Col Poni?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Colonel, a Political Commissioner, is he supposed to be involved in military activities?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Okay, not - Commissar?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Ja.

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: My role, one ...(intervention)

MR VAN DER HEEVER: No, no, I'm not referring to you as a person, I'm referring to a  ...

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: A Political Commissar?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Yes.

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Definitely yes, because he has to see to it that all the operations that are carried out have a political connotation ...(indistinct)

MR VAN DER HEEVER: ;   And applicant number two, do you know whether he was indeed an APLA member?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Initially when I started I said I only know Zweli, but I would accept that in terms of expanding  from their structure, then yes, he is an APLA member in that regard.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: ;   And what were the instructions, or what were - what happened if an APLA member for example was arrested and tried?  Was he supposed to reveal his membership as an APLA member or was he supposed to refrain from informing his counsel that he was an APLA member?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: In the specific case, I would not know the actual ...(indistinct) of it, but what I know is that once you are arrested, it's a fact that there is no way you could hide per se your identity per se.  You might withhold certain information yes, which you know will compromise those that were in existence in your specific units, but to say: "I am an APLA member" then, I don't see any problem in it, but the holding of information thereof, yes.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEEVER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever.  Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Poni, Colonel, applicant number 1 stated that he did not agree with the cessation of the struggle.  Do you have any comment on that?  He seemed to have known that the decision was taken.

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: What I would say, I would maybe consider also his level of academic qualification, but  - in terms of understanding certain - but what I can say, it is a fact that when the then leadership of Makwetu took a decision that they are suspending the arms struggle, even my personal self, I was not agreeing at that specific time that the arms struggle should stop but of course, knowing that I'm a political cadres we immediately tried to rally, but not all of us could do that because we still thought that the road to - the arms struggle is still on, but I will also understand that they were not in the picture of what was - I also understand the political pressure.  Fortunately I had an opportunity of being an attache, I knew what was the position of Africa vis a vis the present dispensation, there were numerous meetings forcing us to an extent that even in Harare, I know it for a fact because I was a military attache, arms were taken away which were under my command in the stores at the time, were taken away, so I would understand the feelings of underground people not wanting to agree with that.  I clearly do understand.

ADV BOSMAN: If a person did not agree and there was publication which had come to their notice that the arms struggle had been suspended, then in the absence of any order to the contrary, would that not be stepping out of line?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: He, or the units on the ground, they should have waited for a military Commander to tell them that.  We were not just a political part of it, we were not just members of the PAC, we belonged to an armed wing of which each had its own rigid structures and at that time when these things happened, we were still also battling amongst ourselves so as to say, we agree, we don't agree, do we continue, we don't continue, those were some of the things, so hence we had to go into a crisis management, trying to battle, force some of these things, so I accept that this type of thing did happen.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.  Colonel, what was the APLA'S policy in terms of, or in so far as the expansion of the cadreship?  In other words, what was it expected for Moses to do in establishing structures in the Northern Province?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Okay.  He had - there were two programmes.  First as I've said that there was someone who was operating here, earmarked to be the Commander here, Moss, but unfortunately he died within the process and in that he did have some units that were not in control of anybody, that was another problem, so his task was also to re-establish the links with the units that were already in existence that were established by Moss and also to establish new units in terms of having more people, in terms of expansion, in that regard.

MR SIBANYONI: Right, was there never any people who were trained internally, in other words if he receives a new recruit?  Was he not supposed to train that person internally?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Who?

MR SIBANYONI: Moses.

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Was he not supposed to train the person internally?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes.