Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] is part of paragraph 6 of the Affidavit F6.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Those two pages from Exhibit W.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, those two pages are Exhibit W.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us establish what Exhibit Y would be then.  I have a page in my possession here marked A in parenthesis, would that be the first page of Exhibit Y?

GEORGE BIZOS: That will be the first page of Exhibit X.

CHAIRPERSON: X.   Page 2 of Exhibit X would be which page?

GEORGE BIZOS: A has two pages.  You see: Bladsy Twee?

CHAIRPERSON: Bladsy twee, ja.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Annexure Y is the one with V on top. They've apparently been swopped.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's clear that up.  Exhibit X would comprise of two pages, the first of which is marked A and the second page thereof would start with the word: Bladsy twee.

GEORGE BIZOS: Bladsy twee.

CHAIRPERSON: And Exhibit Y would consist of two pages, V on top - is that the first page?

GEORGE BIZOS: The first page.  And the first two words on top are: Bladsy twee, right in the middle on top there.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we clear on that gentlemen?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, M'Lord.  It's obvious that the one has been swopped around.

GEORGE BIZOS: We now have them correctly.  That was just for the sake of completeness then.  These are the documents that they were talking about.
	Can we please turn to page 10015 [ten zero one five], would you have a look at line 21:
"Did you ever come to hear of it before Mr Goniwe's death, that it was recommended that he be reappointed arising from a meeting in Cradock"? - "Yes, Your Honour"  "I beg your pardon"?
		"Arising from a meeting in Cradock by Mr Strydom"? - "I beg your pardon"?
		"Arising from a meeting in Cradock by Mr Strydom"? - "Oh, it was announced at a meeting in Cradock.  Mr de Bruyn -
he was counsel for Mr Snyman.
"No, that is not what he said"?
		"What do you say"? - "I say that it was discussed at a meeting in Cradock by Mr Strydom and Goniwe and other gentlemen in Cradock".
		"No, but that was at the start of May.  The question is, whether you had heard, after the Committee was appointed on the 7th of June 1985, that Goniwe would be reappointed"? - "I can't recall that Your Honour".
		"No?  Would you not have been angry if you had heard that a decision like that had been taken without any consultation or reference to yourself"? - "Your Honour, I would have accepted the decision of my head office"
Did Mr Snyman ever discuss with you that there was a Committee appointed to decide whether Mr Goniwe should be reappointed or not?

MR VAN RENSBURG: It's possible.  I can't remember that but it is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: We know that according to an exhibit before the Committee that Exhibit I paragraph 2.5
"The local security community in Cradock have been informed on an ongoing basis and they support the strategy for re-appointment"
	We also have the evidence in other exhibits of Mr Winter who said that he supported the idea of re-appointment if he is to be believed.  Can we please ask you how it is humanly possible for a person so closely connected with your decision or the decision to kill Mr Goniwe, could have been kept ignorant of this happening?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I can't recall this particular meeting and whether it was discussed with me.  It is possible that it was discussed with but I just can't recall it now.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you see, there are two possibilities, either you were told or you were not told.  Do you agree that if anybody was serious about the security of the Eastern Cape at that time, that a senior police colonel in the security police in Port Elizabeth would not have known that there was a recommendation to re-instate Goniwe?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Sir yes, I agree with that.  I've already said that it was mentioned to me at some stage that decisions were being taken or that there was a process of decision making and proposals regarding Mr Goniwe's re-appointment.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for clarity's sake, I suppose that is before his death?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Page two of Exhibit Y, right at the bottom. This is on the 7th of the 6th, on the date on which the request was made for the death warrant.  Do you see paragraph 11?
"Commentary - Lieutenant Colonel Snyman:  It is suspected that the re-appointment of Matthew Goniwe and Ford Calata, S4 of 0322 will be discussed at this gathering".
Now the gathering that decided the fate of Mr Goniwe as far as the SSWR was concerned was on the 7th and the 8th, so we can assume that this personal comment of Mr Snyman was put before the Committee because in the report it says:
"Brief input given by the Eastern Province JMC".
was given.  Now, you were in charge of the documentation were you not?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, in the dissemination of documentation.

GEORGE BIZOS: And this document must have been in your files because it was available at the time of the inquest before Mr Justice Zietsman.

MR VAN RENSBURG: At some stage I must have seen this document.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but you surely must have seen it at or about the time that you called in Mr van Zyl and Mr du Plessis and told them that they must make a plan and present it to Mr Snyman to kill Mr Goniwe and Mr Calata.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I can't give you an exact date but it's possible that it could have corresponded.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, if ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, who would have sent this document?

MR VAN RENSBURG: It seems to me as if this document had been sent by Colonel Snyman, if I look at the top of the document.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but who would have put it through the correct channels so it could reach Pretoria?

MR VAN RENSBURG: The administrative staff.  I suppose the woman who worked with the telex machine.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this one of the documents that would not have gone through your hands?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, this document definitely went through my hands and I'm saying that because my signature appears on it.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Right at the bottom, left, at the bottom left.  You see, if you would allow me Chairperson, you will see it says 1BO, that is commanding officer and 2 is B, B is the section dealing with black affairs, so a copy would have gone to them as well and the original would have gone to the commanding officer.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] established on fact before this Committee is that you at or about the time that you
at or about the time that you called in du Plessis and van Zyl, knew that a Committee was about to decide whether or not Goniwe was to be reinstated.

MR BOOYENS: If my learned friend could just point out to us where there's reference to a Committee in this.  I have missed it but I'm happy to accept if he can point it out that it is there.  All I find is that
"It is suspected that the re-appointment will be discussed at this meeting"

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes well, perhaps I've been challenged to do so but we know that it was suggested by Mr Vlok at the meeting of the 6th, that a Committee should be appointed in order to do this.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but the date stamp in the right hand corner that's not quite legible but more legible on a copy that we've got, is the 24th of May in the right-hand side and that's the security branch Port Elizabeth.  We've got I think what must be probably an original here.

GEORGE BIZOS: Remember what the question was: on or about this time, during this period where Goniwe's fate was being debated and when you called in the two sub-ordinate officers you knew that the question of Goniwe's re-appointment was being considered by higher up authority, let's leave it at that.