Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I was part of the organisation all my life, not SAA, but South African Railways and Harbours, later on SA Transport Services, and then SAA and then of course that became Transnet.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Can we go back to the previous question, I would just like to find out whether it was the case that you ever sought any assurances from Armscor in terms of cargo?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

MS TERREBLANCHE: More than... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I want to point out that we would not ask those assurances from any customer, because you're very much aware of the IATA regulations, which prescribes what cargo is to be transported.   Secondly, that you have freight agents who are handling it.   The customer must declare that on the weighbill, okay?    That doesn't mean to say that SAA doesn't do inspections on cargo it conveys, particularly in the sanctions period.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Were you ever aware of people breaking those IATA stipulations, were you ever aware of illegal cargo on SAA flights?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not really, no, not in that sense.   If it was drugs or something similar, that might be reported to me, yes, but not otherwise.

MS TERREBLANCHE: So you are not aware that there were ever any military type cargo that were not encouraged to be on passenger flights or civilian flights, ever on SAA?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Mr Chairman, how does one know it's military type of equipment, in the first place, would that be declared on the weighbill, and secondly, if it was military type equipment, then there is no objection of IATA and safety regulations to transport that.

MS TERREBLANCHE: As I understand, all military type cargo had to go... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: But, Mr Van der Veer, I think the question is still put, and if your question querying the basis on the question is a reply, then maybe you want to give a reply.   I think the question was, were you ever aware of any military type cargo being conveyed on SAA, and I think because you're under oath, we oblige you to commit yourself to a version.   If your answer is no, then that's your answer, and then you can explain, of course that, you know, "I could never have been aware".

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Mr Chairman, then I would like the definition of military type equipment.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Terreblanche?

MS TERREBLANCHE: According to civil aviation, whenever a military type, any military cargo would be on a plane, they would be told about it.   If it was for the military, they would refer it to Armscor or the SAAF and (indistinct).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Sorry, I didn't hear the last portion?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Whenever there was going to be military cargo, according to the Chicago Convention, it would have been referred to Armscor or to the SAAF, or it would go through a different route?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I'm not aware of anything in that line, but I'd like to ask, not a question, but what is the definition of military equipment?   The problem is, let's assume, let's assume it's some piece of electronic equipment, okay?   First of all, the name Armscor would not be on it, it might be a subsidiary or a front agency, of whom we are not aware, okay?   It's gone through the freight agent and it's called a control mechanism.   So the answer to that is, I accept that as a control mechanism, it could be for anything, military or otherwise.   I mean that happens with every airline, or not even airlines, any freight company around the world.

MS TERREBLANCHE: I accept that.   Yet you have never been aware that something was falsely declared and put on a civilian airline?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.   Not something, stuff has been declared, but not in military - in terms of the military equipment you're referring to.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Are you saying that certain cargo was mis-declared, or declared as something else?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: At times yes, the same problem that the customs people have, because people at times like to declare things at a much lower value for custom purposes.   Okay, yes, in that line one is becoming aware of things at times.

MS TERREBLANCHE: And were any of those cargoes that you were aware of, cargo that were destined for the military or Armscor, or for other sanctions-busting purposes?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not aware of it.

MS TERREBLANCHE: I think Dr Klatzow would also like to ask a couple of questions.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Mr Van der Veer, correct me if I'm wrong, but I have very vivid memories of you being a very hands-on type of chief executive officer of South African Airways, is that correct?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: In certain sectors, yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You were a man, for instance, who would participate in advertising, personally you would be standing on the runway with a candle and you were in some of the television ads that were screened for SAA?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Quite correct.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You were a man who put his stamp on the Airways in no uncertain terms and you were a very effective chief executive officer, if I may make so bold?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: That I think history has to show.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I think you... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I only did my best.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I think that it was a very good best.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Thank you.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You were very much involved with the day to day running of the airline, you did not leave things easily to other people and you were a man who kept your finger firmly on the tiller, as it were?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Again, in certain aspects of the airline.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: In the important aspects?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Let's say yes, those things that were very important at that point in time, yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: You were a man, for instance, who would not allow the wastage of funds on unnecessary projects, you were a man who would see to it that the monies that the airline had were well spent?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: If I was aware about it, definitely.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Certainly.   But at a senior level and on important capital projects, on important projects, you would not allow a waste of money to occur willingly with your knowledge?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now let me turn to the fateful evening of the crash, the 28th of November 1988.   When did you first become aware that the airline was missing?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I must recollect, I mean this is a long time ago... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I remember it... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: To the best of your recollection?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Ja.   I remember it very vividly.   It was probably about, I would guess, and please correct me, about four o'clock that night, when Mr Lewis, my deputy, phoned me at house, at my home.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Viv Lewis?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Viv Lewis.   And he told me that control had phoned him and told me that the Helderberg, at that stage we did not say it was missing, but that we had lost contact with the Helderberg, and that it should, at that time, be landing or have arrived in Mauritius.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: At four o'clock in the morning?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I think it was about four o'clock our time, I stand corrected on that, please.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Right.   I understand that your... (inter-vention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: You'll get a better idea of the time later on, sorry.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.   There are always fallacies of memory, but to the best of your recollection, Viv Lewis phoned you... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...and said that the Helderberg was overdue... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.