Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR JORDI: Yes, that is part of the problem, but they are not murderers of children.  At least they are not, they have not killed a 14 year old.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Then I am not ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Do you know them ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... South African.

MR JORDI: I am being interrupted again ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you are ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... Mr Chairman.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... saying ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordi, I have held my tongue whilst you were interrupting Mrs Mandela on several occasions.  This is the last time I am giving the warning to both of you.  Please reduce the heat and you have two more minutes and then you are over.

MR JORDI: Then I am over for Mr Sono.  I have then got to move on to the other families.

DR BORAINE: Yes, that is why I am saying get a move on.

MR JORDI: Then Mr Michael Siyakamela, he is the brother of your daughter's child.  Am I right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.
 I just want to finish up the question you raised before the Deputy-Chairperson interrupted us.  You said at least they are not murderers of children, then you are not South African.  Mr de Klerk ordered the killing of little children in Umtata simply because he believed they were PAC operatives ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: You have got.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... children who were studying during the night were shot at in the early hours of the morning.  Let us not make statements like that.  They are irresponsible ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: This, excuse me, would you please warn the witness to stop grand-standing.  I have only got two minutes and she is taking up my time with a lecture to me.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am answering you.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Mandela, please.  Can I just remind both of you, order please.  Can I just remind both of you that we are not dealing with trifling matters, we are talking about very, very serious issues of allegations of murder, including children.  Now, let us get on with it, ask the questions and move on.

MR JORDI: Well, let us get to the next issue.  Michael Siyakamela, he is the brother of your daughter's father, I beg your pardon.  He is the brother of the child of your, he ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Can I help you?  He is the, can I help you?

MR JORDI: Yes, please do.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He is the brother to Zinzi's eldest daughter.

MR JORDI: In other words, he is one ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: (...Indistinct).

MR JORDI: ... Zinzi's children?  He is the brother of the father of Zinzi's child?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Right.  Is he insane or given to hallucinations or given to making absurd statements?  You agree he is not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He is not insane.

MR JORDI: He is not, he is not insane, he is not given to making, to hallucinations or making absurd statements?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Right.  Now, he made a statement to Mr Dempsey which was confirmed in a statement to Adv van Vuuren, an officer of the Court, to the effect that you were seen in the company of Lolo Sono in a beaten condition, and I need not say, in circumstances exactly as described by Mr Nicodemus Sono.  What do you have to say about his statement?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If he made such a statement, I can imagine how much he must have been tortured.  You are not listening.

MR JORDI: Yes, he may have made an initial statement to Mr Dempsey and who knows in what circumstances that was extracted, but if ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I can imagine.

MR JORDI: Yes, but in subsequent, in, subsequently he made a statement to the, to an officer of the Court, Adv van Vuuren.  He then made a similar statement to Mr Pigou, the other day, certainly that could not have been under duress, he is a TRC official.  He also made a similar statement to Director Morobe, who was a former Umkhonto weSizwe intelligence officer and I doubt that that was made under duress.  So, he has repeated this statement on numerous occasions and he is indirectly related to your own family.  What do you have to say about his statement which fits very nicely with the evidence of Nicodemus Sono and Jerry Richardson?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I cannot account for statements made under those circumstances.  As I said, those statements you allege were made or rather this particular statement was made by Siyakamela, I have no idea, ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: All right.  I just want ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... save to say that people were tortured to make certain statements and evidence was led from this forum here, to the effect that some of the witnesses were, in fact, persuaded by officials from here.  That evidence was led here.

MR JORDI: Okay, we agree.  Then I want to just note that there have been allegations that you have tampered with Mr Siyakamela, that Mr Dempsey noted that the Sono docket, which has conveniently gone missing, amounted to a prima facie case against you for kidnapping, possibly murder, possibly assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm, that there was a statement by Adv Klaas von Lieres in the newspaper on the second of December 1997 to the effect that he declined to prosecute you in the Sono case, because of a political decision you made, that Mr Gift Ntombeni described a situation where he was assaulted and then held in your premises for four days in similar circumstances to that alleged by Jerry Richardson in the case of Lolo Sono, that you have been found guilty as an accessory to kidnapping by the highest court in the land and that you were well represented in that case and ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordi, just get to your point please, it is a very long statement.

MR JORDI: I am just trying to summarise (...indistinct).

DR BORAINE: Yes, thank you.

MR JORDI: (...Indistinct) time is running out.  And then that you also chose to exercise the right to silence.  What do you have to say about these aspects of the case against you for the, at very least, kidnapping of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I hope I am not really expected to respond to those ramblings.  If you want to suggest that I had access to documents held by van Lieres and that court file disappear and I had access to that type of situation, then, of course, there is something very seriously wrong with your reading of that.

MR JORDI: So, my description of a prima facie case against you for kidnapping of Lolo Sono is not taken seriously by you.  You say it is just a bunch of rambled statements?  Now, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are rambling, because what on earth would I have to do with the disappearing of files in van Lieres' desk?  How on earth can I have access to police files when, to this day, I am under surveillance?

MR JORDI: One last question.

DR BORAINE: One last question, Mr Jordi.

MR JORDI: In the interview with NBS News on the first of February 1989, which has been referred to already, you, the following is set out,
"Why then are people like Desmond Tutu taking shots at you through the football team saying that it should be disbanded?",
and you reply,
"I am quite surprised at him, because he is well aware of the situation back at home.  I understand he made the statement overseas.  Firstly, Desmond Tutu knows that I have no bodyguards,  I do not need bodyguards, I do not need to be protected from my people.".
Did you say that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: You did?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is possible I said that.