Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally how do you propose I should investigate this as Surgeon-General?

MR VALLY: Well as Surgeon-General, as the ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes but I am saying, as Surgeon-General how do you propose ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Yes, as the person who was responsible for the facility which produced these items ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Which at that time was already closed down.

MR VALLY: Yes. And I would go to all the people who were involved in it and enquire from them.  Let me show you a document.  Have you seen Dr Immelman's affidavit?  It's been given to your attorney.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I haven't seen it as yet.

MR VALLY: Dr Immelman in relation to the "verkope lys" says - he was asked to make his items by Dr Wouter Basson. Then he was introduced to certain operatives to whom he delivered these items at various times.  You, of course, know Dr Immelman, also someone who worked under the persons at RRL, also part of Operation Jotta?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes I do remember Dr Immelman, yes.

MR VALLY: Right.  He says he was specifically asked to do this and he had to deliver this to certain agents and the agent's initials are on that document.  He gives the agent's names.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Are you referring to paragraph ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: 17 for example.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes I see that.

MR VALLY: Now if you look at paragraph 18, after you read 17 please.  17 for the record maybe I should read it into the record Mr Chair.
"A sales list with numbers B00000 B000011 and B000012 was shown to me.  I recognised the substances on the list and my signature at the side with the dates as well as my signature on list B000011 where I wrote "returned" next to the entry "mamba poison - 18 November '89.  The words "JK" which I wrote next to the dates 19th March '89 and 23rd of March '89, I cannot recall.  I think, however, it was Johnny Koertzen".
You know Johnny Koertzen of course?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I've heard the name, yes.

MR VALLY: He apparently took over assistant research SRD, assistant Research and Design after Dr Jan Lourens, also a military front company.
"The 'C' next to the other dates meant 'Chris'.  That was my entry for substances which I delivered to Chris or one of his co-workers.
 The 'K' next to the other dates meant 'Koos'.  Certain entries are not my handwriting.  Koos was the man I met in Dr Basson's office at the medical office of the Defence Force"
Do you know which office that is?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No I don't from this, but it might have been the office where Dr Basson and his - you know was the office that belonged to him, but that's not clear.

MR VALLY: And where was it located?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: In the Medical Service headquarters.

MR VALLY: In the Medical Service headquarters.
"I was also introduced to Koos as Willem by Dr Basson.  He told me that Koos was also a co-worker".
 Now clearly Dr Immelman is making these poison items, by arrangement with Dr Wouter Basson and delivering it to certain persons who he meets in Dr Wouter Basson's office at Army Medical headquarters.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Not Army Medical headquarters, I am sorry.

MR VALLY: Oh sorry.  What is it called?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: The South African Medical Service headquarters.

MR VALLY: South African Medical Service headquarters.  Thank you.
 It appears as if either, and we know for a fact that this Coordinating Committee was not concerned with individual poisoning by means of screwdrivers and umbrellas ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I am afraid I don't agree with that Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: You brought it to their attention.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes, I brought it to their attention ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: And ...(intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: ...that that information was given.  They were not concerned that it was part of the programme.  That is what I am saying to you.

MR VALLY: They were not concerned, they were not concerned that murders may have been committed with poisons injected?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: But Mr Vally ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: You see the point I am making is, if they were not concerned with umbrellas shooting poison pellets and screwdrivers injecting poisons why would they have to be concerned about cigarettes with anthrax?  And I am postulating that they were not concerned because they were aware of the programme.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No, that is not true.

MR VALLY: And the reason I am saying this is that Dr Immelman states, he delivered these items on the request of Dr Wouter Basson.  We have had Dr - the doctor who made the poisons, Odendal, giving evidence and told - he was asked to prepare these items which were then given to Dr Immelman to keep in his safe.
 We are told by Dr Immelman that he met these white men, one of them is Johnny Koertzen, who you know, at SAMS headquarters when the introductions took place in Dr Basson's office.  
 Now if the Coordinating Committee is not interested in those applications, those means of applying the poisons, if they are not interested in those means of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, Mr du Plessis I must warn you.  You are perfectly entitled to advise your client but don't write notes to a testifying witness at a time when the witness is being put a question to and he has not replied.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want an argument ...(intervention)

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman under no circumstances did I write anything.  I've underlined a word, that is all that I have done.

CHAIRPERSON: That is suggesting something.  This witness is an adult, he is intelligent, he is testifying, I don't want to have to say you must stay away from your client whilst he's testifying.  This is an observation I am making against the backdrop of a complaint that was made.  I've said to you whilst the witness is testifying allow the witness to reply to a question.  If you feel the question is improper raise an objection.

MR DU PLESSIS: I want to make an objection made against the statement by Mr Vally.  He said the "JK" referred to somebody well-known to him ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But what you should do - Mr du Plessis let me again warn you.  Don't testify on behalf of your client.  If there is a question that is put to your client unfairly your duty, and I don't have to remind you of your legal duties, is to raise an objection, so that no inference should be drawn from your conduct, which is what I saw.  That you are trying to assist your client in answering a question which is being put to him.

MR DU PLESSIS: I take note of that.  All I am saying is the statement made by Mr Vally to my client is wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what I would have expected you to have done.  Mr Vally.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Chairman I may just say that I was waiting for the question to be completed and I would then have gone back to this paragraph, in any case.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no, no....

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I just want to make that point.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, I was not even addressing you General, with respect.  I was addressing a colleague.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: ...who understands exactly where I am coming from with that sort of approach.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I must say Mr Vally I have now lost the thread, would you please say it again.