Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I don't have a morbid interest in dead bodies, I just don't have an interest in seeing dead people, I didn't go and have a look.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Were you not repulsed by what was happening?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: By the interrogation?

MR WILLS: Yes?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Was it usual in your experience for a woman to be struck so heartily?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, my experience, arrested people have been struck, women and males.

MR WILLS: So you don't discriminate?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You hit men and women exactly the same?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I have seen them being hit, I didn't say that I did it.

MR WILLS: Just one thing, have you any experience of interrogations where physical abuse is used like this, personal experience, other than just watching?  Should I say, including just watching, other than this incident?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I wasn't involved in many interrogations, it was not part of my duties.

MR WILLS: Can you help us, in those that you were involved in, you obviously said not many, so you were involved in some, not so?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now, from experience I have had and that has usually been dealing with people from the other side, having spoken to people who have been interrogated, their experience to me has been quite frequently that more than one person participates in an assault, if there is a group of people in the room, it is very rare that one person is just doing the hitting, are you able to comment?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is quite possible, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Usually the position is it is more than one person that does the hitting, not so?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is possible, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Sorry, I realise that we are pushed for time, Mr Chairman, I will try and be as quick as I can.   Coetzer testifies to this conflict that existed and also Mr de Kock alludes to it in his affidavit, that Botha wanted Mbane to be sent back to the house and Coetzer didn't think this was prudent and there was a bit of an altercation, by this I mean a verbal altercation apparently between Botha and Coetzer and as a result of this, it wasn't amicably resolved, as a result of this, Coetzer withdrew his men?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't quite get it, you said Coetzer wanted Mbane to be sent back to the house?

MR LAX: He didn't want him to be sent back to the house.

MR WILLS: I am sorry, Botha wanted Mbane to be sent back to the house, Coetzer didn't want that to happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Which house?  Do you mean ...

MR WILLS: Yes,  Khubeka's house.  Were you alive to that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall, Capt Botha did want Mbane to go back to the house, Joe Coetzer didn't think it would be a good idea and the matter was resolved as far as I can remember, by having Mbane phone the house on two separate days and after the second occasion, the team was withdrawn by Sgt Coetzer, after we had phoned Col de Kock and informed him of the situation and he was in agreement that the team should be withdrawn.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Do you know, I mean you obviously appear to have knowledge of this, why was the team withdrawn?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, at that stage the infiltration for which the team was specifically there, had ended, there was no other purpose to send them back there and they were then withdrawn.  They had been there for an extended period and it was considered prudent at that stage, to withdraw the men, to get them out, back to their homes.

MR WILLS: I just want you to be absolutely certain, you are absolutely sure that Mbane did not go to the house, I mean in the sense that the agreement was reached and Botha knew that Mbane wasn't going to go to the house?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I know, the agreement was reached that Mbane would phone the home and find out what was  going on, that is my recollection.  I do not think that Mbane went back to the home.

CHAIRPERSON: While you are considering, is there any particular reason why you slept at Winkelspruit that night, why I ask is you say it was the first time you went there, you went to have a discussion with Mr Taylor, I am sure you didn't anticipate the events that actually took place, is there any reason why you slept there, particularly in the light of the fact that you said that your members all left and went to sleep where they usually sleep?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I had my sleeping bag with me at that stage, as was my want, and Col Taylor had offered me stretcher and said there was a stretcher there where I could sleep and I thought in the light of what had happened and then further discussions as to, as was decided the next day, how we should conduct the operation further, that it would be prudent if I should stay there and speak directly to the Commanding element.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you, just two more aspects.  You say that Capt Botha decided that her body should be removed and be placed elsewhere, I am referring to your statement at page 156?

CHAIRPERSON: Just near the bottom, the second last sentence, or third last sentence?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, that is as Capt Botha informed me.

MR WILLS: Yes, were you involved in any discussion as to how, what was discussed around this?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Did Botha mention to you that he wanted the body placed in such a manner that it would be found?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: So, I mean you must agree from the tenure of your statement, and I refer to the rest of the paragraph, it is clearly that the intention was that the body wouldn't be found, because you didn't want her death to be known?  You would agree with that?  You didn't want the secret facility to be exposed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, what I meant here was that if this death had been reported, and she had been left on the scene for an investigation, the facility would have been exposed and their Intelligence operation would then also have come to light.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So clearly what you said at the top of page 157 is under all circumstances, you didn't want an investigation into her death by the SAP?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Not at the facility, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Let's be fair, anywhere?   Would you have been happy that ...

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I wasn't involved in discussions as to her removal and subsequent what should happen, I mean that didn't involve me at all.

MR WILLS: Look, with respect Mr Baker, I am asking you about what you said under oath, on your affidavit, and I will quote, you say
"... we also did not want her linked to any investigation by the SAP as this would have seriously jeopardised the covert operation."
	That is what you say.  Mr Botha didn't say that.   Mr de Kock didn't say that, you said that.  I want to know why you said that.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I should imagine that an investigation by the SAP as I have said, would have jeopardised this operation.

MR WILLS: Yes.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Linked to us.

MR WILLS: So an inference that one can draw from that is clearly, as far as you were concerned, you didn't want the body to be found because otherwise the SAP would have done an investigation into it, because the body must have had signs of an unnatural death?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have said, I had no role in deciding what should be done with the body and where the body should be placed and so on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if the body was to be traced back to the facility, then no doubt and if there was an investigation, your members would have been implicated?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As well.