Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-15

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I firmly didn't believe he was guilty.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes, and then there was the inquest.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: And at the inquest, we know now, it's already on record, there once again you never made mention of the telephone conversation, why not at the inquest?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Because at the inquest again, before the inquest happened I was told once again not to mention anything about the Security Branch, not to mention anything about phone calls or anything that could implicate the Security Branch in anything.

MR RAUTENBACH: So you were content at hiding or concealing evidence from the inquest under oath, is that right?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I wasn't asked about it, therefore I didn't feel that I'd hidden any information, that I lied about anything.  I might not have mentioned it, but I didn't feel that I was actually lying about anything.

MR RAUTENBACH: Mrs White, it's a very interesting way of explaining away the difficulty that you find yourself in.  You know what the truth was at that stage, you know there was this conversation that took place three days before she was murdered, you knew at that stage, three days before she was murdered, there was this discussion.  You give evidence under oath, you do not make mention of an important fact during an investigative type of inquiry under oath, am I right?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Sorry, I also didn't even see it, that it was that much of an important conversation.

MR RAUTENBACH: Are you saying, is your evidence now that you don't think the conversation was important?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Hold on a second, you're saying in my thoughts I thought it was the Security Branch, that was my feeling.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Nobody else thought it was the Security Branch, they thought it was my brother that had done it.

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: So for me, even at the trial, whether I mention about - not the trial sorry, the inquest ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: You see, Mrs White, what worries me is that that conversation is important for both theories, both for the theory that your brother is suspect and for the theory, your theory, that it was the Security Branch.  That linked your suspicion ...(intervention)

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Sorry, I don't understand what was so important.

MR RAUTENBACH: You don't understand why it was important?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No.

MR RAUTENBACH: Are you serious with what you're telling me now?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, I'm just trying to ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: You didn't think it was important, this conversation.  Is that your evidence, you didn't think that conversation and the contents of the conversation was important?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, I'm just trying to establish now why you seem to be asking me why I didn't, or why I thought it was ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: I'm just saying to you ...

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: ... that important at the inquest.

MR RAUTENBACH: At the inquest, because they wanted to get to the truth of the matter, they wanted to get all the information they could.  You knew about the conversation, you knew the Security Branch was mentioned, you knew your brother was a suspect, you didn't tell them, why not?  Is your answer because you didn't think it was important?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, my main answer or my main feelings on that is that I was told not to speak about the Security Branch, that was one of my main things, I'd been threatened over there, and ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, please carry on, what do you want to say?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Sorry.  And that I also didn't think it was that important.  So even thought I'd been threatened and told not to say anything about the Security Branch, I didn't really think it would make that much impact on anything.

MR RAUTENBACH: You see I just want to put it to you, Mrs White, that the reason - this is going to be my submission, the reason why it wasn't mentioned to Steyn in any conversation and the reason why it wasn't mentioned during the inquest was because it in fact never happened, there was no discussion between yourself and Janine regarding this issue that you've given evidence here today about.  I just put it to you, what's your comment?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: My comment is that there definitely was a conversation that evening.

MR RAUTENBACH: I put it further to you that you have listened to the evidence of your brother in these proceedings, you have realised that the existence of that conversation could be important to his case and that is why you're prepared to give evidence on the same lines as he did.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: That is not so.  May I take one minute and say something to - may I not?

CHAIRPERSON: Unfortunately not.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Because I - oh, okay.

CHAIRPERSON: They will assist you again when the questioning is done.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Okay.  Because there was knowledge of, obviously not at the inquest before but with the lawyers about that, you know formulating part of my brother's amnesty, I did a letter.  So what I'm saying is it wasn't only at the last part of the, or the start of this hearing was the first time that that ever came up.

MR RAUTENBACH: Mrs White, during the inquest you were specifically asked as to when you picked up your brother on that Saturday morning, do you recall that?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: You stated quite clearly that it was between nine and nine fifteen.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: That's right.

MR RAUTENBACH: You are not on record elsewhere where you stated a different time than the time period nine to nine fifteen, correct?  Is there any particular reason why you today in evidence-in-chief attempted to stretch it now up to nine thirty?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No reason whatsoever.  I stick to my story nine/nine fifteen.  All I said is it would definitely be no later than nine thirty.

MR RAUTENBACH: Did your brother tell you when he spoke to you, did you ask him how are you going to get to Pietermaritzburg?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: You're talking about that Saturday morning?

MR RAUTENBACH: When you had your discussion about the braai arrangements.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, as far as I know he was actually going to be in Pietermaritzburg, but he was seeing - I don't know what you call it, colleagues or people that he was doing trading with or whatever it was, he was seeing them until fairly late that night, so there was no need for me to fetch him, or he wouldn't stay with us that evening but that he would definitely be in Pietermaritzburg.  He didn't have to come from Durban or anything like that as he was already there.

MR RAUTENBACH: Now you have heard some of the evidence in this forum.  The first flight on Saturday morning was at 8 o'clock from Johannesburg to Durban, have you heard that evidence?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, I heard that.

MR RAUTENBACH: And you say - if I say to you 8 o'clock, do you know how long it takes for a flight from Johannesburg to Durban?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I'm not sure, I'd imagine between 40 and 50 minutes, I'm not sure.

MR RAUTENBACH: Well the information that we have is that the landing time of that plane was at 9 o'clock.  You will agree with me that a person first had to - the plan lands, it has to come to a standstill, people wait before they actually leave the plane, they then had to go into the airport building and then from the airport building they've got to leave the airport building, to get - in his case, got to get to the highway.  I want to put it to you that it's almost impossible that he could have made it, could have met you between nine and nine thirty.  Do you want to react to that?  Are you insisting that he met you ...(intervention)

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: My only reaction is that I definitely met him within that time period.

MR RAUTENBACH: You stick to that, at nine thirty?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Definitely.