Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-18

CHAIRPERSON: Is Themba and Lucky two different persons?

MS M MOLETE: They are different people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Apart from those three persons, was there any other person in the room?

MS M MOLETE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and on the second day what happened?

MS M MOLETE: The second time I spoke to Lucky Kekana alone, at the very offices.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the third occasion, was that when you spoke to Mr Strydom?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was the last day you attended court?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

MR LAX: Just one last aspect if you'd allow me.  How -you were called to the same place the third time, were you told anything by anybody before you spoke to Mr Strydom?

MS M MOLETE: When we arrived there we were told that it is not our day maybe on the roll.

INTERPRETER: If I could ask the witness to say what does she mean when she says it is not our day.  Maybe that would clarify that.

MR LAX: Ja, please explain that.

MS M MOLETE: It was not our day as victims to get into court and they asked us who called us.

MR LAX: Yes, and?

MS M MOLETE: We told Simon to hand out the letter that we received.

MR LAX: Who did he give it to?

MS M MOLETE: We were showing this letter to the policemen who were in there.

MR LAX: And what was the result of that?

MS M MOLETE: The other left and fetched Mr Strydom.

MR LAX: And then?

MS M MOLETE: Then Mr Strydom came in to us.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR LOWIES: You said something about some policeman talking to you about your statements, either with Strydom or before Strydom or something like that.  I just couldn't catch it properly.

MS M MOLETE: I said Themba and Lucky worked in that, and those were the police that I worked with.  And thereafter when we were called by Mr Strydom, we talked to this policeman who fetched Mr Strydom, who works at Pretoria.

MR LAX: And when you spoke to Mr Strydom, who else was present with you?  Was there anyone else there?

MS M MOLETE: I was not alone speaking to Mr Strydom, we were all the people that he had called.

MR LAX: Yes, but besides the people who were called and Mr Strydom, was anyone else present?

MS M MOLETE: No, Sir.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, Chairman, I was taken a little bit aback.  I'll have to canvass this with my colleague.  At this stage I request a postponement, an adjournment, sorry, so that I can just get proper instructions regarding this.  I'm totally unprepared.  Inter alia from Mr Strydom and also my attorney.  Well I can't talk to him now, but I'd like to talk to Mr Strydom.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not representing Mr Strydom are you?

MR LOWIES: No, but I will have to cross-examine regarding this evidence, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What for?

MR LOWIES: Well these are serious allegations against my client, because what she says is firstly, my clients knew there were white policemen and their lawyers, and probably mine as well, or probably my clients as well, bribed her with R150 not to mention this.

CHAIRPERSON: Just refresh my memory.  What was the difference that was put at the trial?  Isn't there something which indicates that the defence ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON HAS DISCUSSION WITH PANEL

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I haven't looked at the Heads for a long time, but it was a denial that they were present at all.  And there was an argument about the attack having been carried out with military precision, if I remember correctly.  I don't know if Mr Frederech was the instructing attorney in the trial.
MR FREDERECH ?: Chair, at that stage I was not on the scene yet, but it was a bare denial that was given.  That was the instruction.  They were not there at the scene when - yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the presence of the police.
MR FREDERECH ?: On that I have no idea unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Ms Pretorius.  Do you have any further questions to put to this witness?

MR LOWIES: Can I not get a postponement?

CHAIRPERSON: No, there's going to be no postponement, you will continue with your cross-examination now.  If you don't have questions to put you can take instructions from your client during the break, but we can't have a postponement now.

MR LOWIES: No, I don't want a postponement, sorry Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: I meant an adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean a stand-down?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you will have the opportunity during the tea break.  You can take instructions from your client.

MR LOWIES: And then I can re-cross-examine on these ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And you can go out an take instructions now.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chairman.  Can I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, Ms Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: I have no questions.  I just want to put it to the witness that my instructions are that there was no Hippo and no white men ...(inaudible) part of the attack on that night.

MS M MOLETE: I say they were present.

MS PRETORIUS: That's all thank you, Chairman.

MS M MOLETE: In my case I had a fight with a white man.

MS TANZER: Thank you, Chair.
	When you say that your attackers were wearing camouflaged overalls, were they civilian clothes or did they look like some kind of military or police uniform?

MS M MOLETE: I never said the attackers were wearing such things.  I said I fought against one person and two others were at the door in camouflage.  I didn't fight against three of them, I fought with one of them.

MS TANZER: Yes, but the two that were camouflaged, as  you described, was that civilian clothes or was it some form of a military or police uniform? - the two at the door of your home.

MS M MOLETE: I do not know or cannot distinguish between the police or the military uniform.  I have on many occasions seen people wearing this uniform.

MS TANZER: Are you aware of the structure in the Boipatong/Slovo Park area, which is used as a mixed hostel or was used as a mixed hostel?

MS M MOLETE: May you repeat the question.

MS TANZER: Are you aware of a building in the Boipatong location, which was used as a mixed hostel?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, Ma'am.

MS TANZER: Is this building close to Slovo Park?

MS M MOLETE: That is so, Ma'am.

MS TANZER: Are you aware on the night of the attack that this building was also attacked?  Were the inhabitants of this structure or building also attacked that night?

MS M MOLETE: I do not have knowledge of that.

MS TANZER: Were you alert to, or did you have any warning of an imminent attack on Boipatong?

MS M MOLETE: No, Ma'am.

MS TANZER: There were no rumours whatsoever that Boipatong would be attacked?

MS M MOLETE: I haven't heard of such rumours.

MS TANZER: Is the first time that you noticed the attack, when your neighbours at 17 were being attacked?  Is that the first time you became aware?

MR BERGER: The was in 17.

MS TANZER: I apologise, in 19.

MS M MOLETE: It was the first time.

MS TANZER: During the attack, did you hear a lot of gunshots and bullets flying, did you hear shots being fired in Slovo Park?

MS M MOLETE: That is so.

MS TANZER: During the period May and June of '92, were you aware of the acrimony between the residents of the Kwamadala Hostel and the Boipatong location?

MS M MOLETE: I have not stayed a long time at Boipatong,  I was not aware of that happening.

MS TANZER: What was the relationship - how was the relationship between your comrades of Boipatong and the residents of Slovo Park, were they also protecting Slovo Park?

MS M MOLETE: I did not stay at Slovo Park, I stayed at Amatola on the outskirts.  I went to Slovo on the day of the attack.

MS TANZER: Did you notice any black people during the attack?

MS M MOLETE: That is so, Ma'am.

MS TANZER: You could not identify any of them?

MS M MOLETE: That is so, Ma'am.

MS TANZER: Now were you, on your version were you discouraged to testify at the criminal trial, by being offered R150?