Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-17

ROBERT KOHL: Well that whole week I was not at work, actually. I was at home.  What happened Monday is that he was not at school and all the people around knew about that and the scholars as well.  So there was a procession of scholars from school to town.  I'm not sure what happened but most of them ran to my place because normally after school during that week they came down there and sang freedom songs and the police were also there.  And after the freedom songs the police used to chase them, and that's what happened.
 There was a policeman that was also involved, that's Glennis Peckman, he was also in charge on the Casper doing the shooting with these pellets and his own sister was also 
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in the school at that time and he even locked her up for being with us, for coming to visit the family and so forth. So that week it was come and go with the police actually coming and going and looking and so on, but at home we did not take an interest in them because we were just worried about our son, what's going to happen now during this week.
 We went to the post mortem which was held on a Wednesday.  I went to identify the body but unfortunately we were not allowed at the post mortem.  The post mortem was done by the district surgeon, Dr Gough and we were not allowed to go there and anything like that.  But I did go to identify him and that's when I heard the guy that was in charge, the sergeant who was in charge at the mortuary there, telling me that this is what happens to, "Is this your boy?" I said, "Yes this is my son." "This is what happens to children who don't listen".   I  didn't answer him because I thought this is not a time or thing to answer him at the moment. I'll just leave that to him to think about.

MR SANDI: What did the post mortem report say, what did the doctor say was the cause of the death on the body of the deceased?

ROBERT KOHL: The post mortem said that the lung was punctured.  So we didn't have, what happened at that time was that the students that were with Bully at the time were arrested, and were actually in jail.  When the court case came up, the state of emergency was called and they were not allowed to come out to give evidence so the case was actually left for a year.  When the state of emergency was lifted the witnesses actually came out of jail, so the court case was
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left over for a whole year.

MR SANDI: So who was the lawyer?

ROBERT KOHL: The lawyer was David de la Harp.

MR SANDI: Was he the lawyer for the family?

ROBERT KOHL: For the family, yes.

MR SANDI: Was anyone, say a member of the police charged for with this, with murder or that sort of thing?

ROBERT KOHL: What happened at the inquest, they asked me to dig out the body because there were two bullets in the body that they wanted to identify, to which gun it belongs. And that's what the where the post mortem document of that doctor was read, only when the court case came up. The report of the doctor came up that there was a bullet in the body.  There's a number on the bullet that they can identify the policeman that shot him.

MR SANDI: What was your reaction to that, did you say the State should...(intervention)

ROBERT KOHL: Well I couldn't do that actually, I thought now it is not possible for me to dig up my son's body after a year just to see a bullet.  But nevertheless, a few years back, in 1994. I heard the name of the guy was revealed that actually did the shooting and I understand his name is de Lise or something like that.  Well from last year I heard that he was in hospital and died of cancer. So the policeman that shot my son is also dead, but I'm not saying anything against him at this stage, but I think to have my son's body dug up from the grave to see a bullet was not possible for me to do, especially my family.

DR BORAINE: I'm sorry to interrupt you.  What you're saying is very very important, but a lot of people can't hear you and we are having difficulty here as well.  I know
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it's hard but if you could do your best to speak up and speak directly in the mike, it would help us, sorry to interrupt you.

MR SANDI: Carry on Mr Kohl.

ROBERT KOHL: That story that I heard about the policeman that was involved in the shooting.  That funeral that took place, me and Reverend Titus went to see the station commander to finalise the funeral arrangements and we went there to the police station.

MR SANDI: Back to the police station for the second time now?

ROBERT KOHL: Yes that's during the week, so we went to finalise when the funeral was going to take place, when to bury my son.  And Reverend Titus went inside to see the station commander, and when he came back he told me that he had a meeting with the station commander and he promised to keep all the troops and all the policemen out of the coloured area and they won't actually be near the funeral and people won't be harassed, shot at, whatever and that's how the funeral proceeded. So on that particular day the troops were out of the coloured area and not even in the townships, actually they were not there, they were out on the boundaries  of the coloured and township areas.

MR SANDI: Many of us are aware that one of the things that would happen during those old bad days was that the police would impose restrictions on the funeral.  They would say, no political speeches, you've got to take this route to the graveyard, were there any restrictions imposed by the police on the manner in which the funeral should be conducted.

ROBERT KOHL: Yes  Reverend Titus brought that across to me and I said, how can I stop people coming to the funeral?  I had
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so many friends, I belonged to a sports club, I belonged to a prayer group, I've got people that come and go, my son has got friends, and so I can't prevent people from coming to the funeral. Especially as he was on the organisation of the Grahamstown youth movement and he was on the student body at school and the principal and his sports master knew him very well, so...(intervention)

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: Sorry, I'm not asking you a question.  I appealed at the beginning of the hearings that we would conduct ourselves bearing in mind what was taking place that this was a solemn, serious, process and by and large you have been very good.  But I am a bit distressed to see, especially in the galleries, people are reading newspapers at a time when testimony is being given.  If you want to read your newspaper will you please go and read it outside.

ROBERT KOHL: Thank you, there were restrictions because they told Reverend Titus that there should be only 200 people at the funeral, just family and close friends.  That's what Reverend Titus told them or the station commander that that's impossible, because he knew that I've got a lot of friends and his whole congregation will be there, the number is over 200 people actually.  So the thing is that they discussed that they will allow the people to attend the funeral but not at the stadium nor at the rugby field.  So we had to have the funeral at the, St Clements was a small church actually, recreation hall.  I've got photographs that Mr Sandi has there where people made speeches, people talked about the life of Bully and the proceedings that happened there.  I've got some photographs that I brought across to show the Commission.

MR SANDI: Were there any events on the day of the funeral. EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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Were you able to hold the funeral without any disruption from whoever?