Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR MALAN: May I just follow up?  The question put by Mr Hugo was, why did you instruct Mr Ramatale specifically, and he referred to other black members also being present and you only said it would look silly if you would have approached him, but why Ramatale and not one of the others?  I think that was the question.

FRANK MCCARTER: I did say, Mr Chairman, that Mr Ramatale was intimate with the workings of the ANC and the MK.

MR MALAN: Were the other black members not?

FRANK MCCARTER: There were at least three of them that were policemen who didn't have that background.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR HUGO: Now if Mr Ramatale was to approach Mr Bhila in Lamontville, who gave him the specifics as to where he was living, the specific address?

FRANK MCCARTER: That would have come from Colonel Andy Taylor, he gave us the specifics.

MR MALAN: Mr McCarter, the question was, who gave Mr Ramatala the address?

FRANK MCCARTER: That would have been me, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR HUGO: When the instruction was given to Mr Ramatala by yourself, was anybody else present, any of the other black policemen?

FRANK MCCARTER: To be honest, I can't recall.

MR HUGO: And if we just go back to the details and the specifics pertaining to the address, where did you get those specifics from?

FRANK MCCARTER: That would have been from Colonel Andy Taylor.

MR MALAN: Do you remember that, Mr McCarter?  Are you giving evidence or are you building some likelihood, some probability?

FRANK MCCARTER: It could have only been Colonel Andy Taylor, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: My question was whether you remember it?

FRANK MCCARTER: Not specifically, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Well Mr McCarter, maybe I should put it to you at this point in time, that Mr Maluleka, one of our clients will say that they liaised with a person who was at that time in custody, a certain Stanley Mony who later became a member of Vlakplaas and he was then recruited or instructed by Mr Lambede to assist them in their approach to Mr Bhila, do you have any recollection of that?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Mr Maluleka's version is further that Mr Stanley Mony was booked out of jail, if I may use that term, specifically with the purpose of approaching Mr Bhila and to try and win over his confidence to get him to co-operate, on the pretext that he would be taken out of the country.  Can you recall that?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall that, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Can you however tell the Committee what reasons did you give to Mr Ramatala for the prospective kidnapping that would take place, why should it have been done?

FRANK MCCARTER: Purely for detention purposes, not legal detention but detention purposes in order to interrogate him.

MR HUGO: Can you just tell us once more, when the vehicle with Mr Bhila arrived at Lamontville, how many occupants were in that vehicle at the time?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall, Mr Chairman, but there - I can't recall.

MR HUGO: Well let me just put it to you for completeness sake, Mr Maluleka will say that he was just initially involved in this operation to the extent that if any arrests were made and if there was to be any opposition from Mr Bhila, that he would then carry out the arrest and after everything had gone according to plan he then left and he never went to Lamontville.    Can you recall as to whether he was at Lamontville or not?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall Mr Maluleka but the members that went there went there merely in support of Mr Ramatala and after the operation had taken place they then left.

MR HUGO: And I take it what you are saying is that Mr Ramatala left after the vehicle had been intercepted and you had taken custody of Mr Bhila.

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Then Mr McCarter, Mr Maluleka will also say that during the initial operation a Honda vehicle was used and this vehicle, well the two occupants of this vehicle was the said Stanley Mony and Ramatala, do you have any recollection of that?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't remember the vehicle but it was a hired vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, can I go back for a minute, I'm a little confused.  As I understood you you said Maluleka said he was not involved, he was just there to carry out the arrest if that was necessary. When things went off smoothly he left and did not go to Lamontville.

MR HUGO: Well Mr Chairman, maybe I should just put it a little bit clearer.  There was an initial meeting point at Kentucky Fried Chicken where he was picked up, Mr Bhila.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, he wasn't picked up at his home in Lamontville?

MR HUGO: No.
	Just to get back to the hiring of the vehicle, can you remember who hired this vehicle, was it Vlakplaas members or was it the Durban Security Police that hired this vehicle?

FRANK MCCARTER: I don't recall, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Then Mr McCarter, we have also been furnished with a copy or just a short summary of the evidence that Mr Ramatala will be giving and we have also been furnished with an affidavit - copies of the affidavit haven't been made yet but they will be available fairly soon, let me just put it to you that in the summary Mr Ramatala says that
"The purpose of the trip to Durban was to carry out security operations at CR Swart and an order group was held, and McCarter informed the group Bhila had been acquitted in the trial but that he was involved with other terrorists."
Can we just have your reaction to this?

FRANK MCCARTER: I would definitely - I can't confirm or deny it but I would have given them a reason for why he was being picked up and who he was.

MR HUGO: Well the question is really aimed at the number of people who attended this order group.  Let me put it to you that my clients will say that they never attended this order group and it was never conveyed to them what the reasons would be.  Can you deny that or can you confirm that?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't deny that, I can only remember speaking to Ernest Ramatala.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

MR NGUBANE: Mr McCarter, you say that the Border Gate incident changed your life, at least your political thinking, is it correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, it had a profound effect on me ...(inaudible).

MR NGUBANE: By that time when this Border Gate incident took place, could you kill any member of the ANC or PAC for political reasons?

FRANK MCCARTER: In hind - no, I doubt it, I wasn't conditioned at that stage.

MR NGUBANE: And immediately after this incident, the Border Gate incident, could you kill any member of the ANC or PAC for political reasons?

MR MALAN: He's already answered ....(inaudible).  Has he not just answered the question and did he not say: " doubt it, I wasn't at that stage conditioned"?

MR NGUBANE: I had said prior to the Border Gate incident, now I said immediately after the Border Gate incident.

MR MALAN: My apologies, Mr Ngubane.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: With respect, Mr Chairman, that was not how the question was framed, but be that as it may.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I think my conditioning took place over a long period and I doubt whether, I wasn't even thinking about killing people after the Border Gate incident.

MR NGUBANE: At what stage did - can you tell us at what stage did you reach a stage where you could kill for political reasons?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, could I just get some clarity on this "political reason"?  Is that merely because a person's a member of an organisation or is it because a person's armed with a weapon and shooting at me, can I just get some clarity on that?

MR NGUBANE: Before I give you clarity to that, is it not your case that you committed the murder of Bhila because you pursued a political objective?

FRANK MCCARTER: My political objective was in keeping the South African Government in power at the time.