Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

HASSAN MALL: But if you were directly implicating and 
holding out to the world that this action was performed by 
the police, by the South African Police or a Vlakplaas unit, 
if that is what you were going to hold out to the world how 
was that protecting the police?
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

HASSAN MALL: 146

UNKNOWN: The false plan which we had was to say that it 
was the task force, the special operational unit which had 
shot these people. Then no questions would have been asked. 
 But the moment you mention that it was Koevoet members or 
Vlakplaas members, then it was a problem.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
At that stage were the actions of specially the Vlakplaas 
unit,was it still directed against the liberation movements?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And the Vlakplaas involvement in this 
event, if that was disclosed, would that have a prejudicial 
effect on the Vlakplaas operation?

UNKNOWN: I believe so, because if I remember correctly, 
 just after this it was insisted that people such as De Kock 
and other persons who were known to the ANC, that they had 
to leave the police. I think it was one of the ANC's 
requirements for further negotiations, and that in fact 
happened, they packages and our unit was disbanded just 
after that.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz on page 129, the bottom 
paragraph, you said that information was received that 
weapons were smuggled for making available to the ANC and 
the PAC across the border, in a white Ford Cortina.

UNKNOWN: I can't remember who told me that the weapons 
would be made available to the ANC.

UNKNOWN: But you think that it was Willie Nortje?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now you have conceded that there is a 
possibility that these people could have sold weapons to 
other people. Now I want to ask you, what do you, in the 
light of what you can remember, what was told to you, what 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 147

UNKNOWN: was more probable,  would they have sold weapons to private 
people or was it more probable that they would have sold 
weapons to supporters of freedom fighters and movements?

UNKNOWN: No, they would rather - if they didn't sell it 
to trained terrorists, they would have sold it to street 
committees, the self-defence units and those kinds of bodies 
and people.

HASSAN MALL: We are talking about this particular 
consignment, not generally?

UNKNOWN: No, this particular consignment.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes, this particular one.  We are speaking 
of this specific consignment of weapons.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I believed that the weapons were going to 
these people.

UNKNOWN: Can I take you to page 132, the last two 
sentences of the first paragraph, the middle of the page, it 
starts with "the reason for that".  The last two sentences 
of the first paragraph.  It is on page 132, it starts with 
the words "the reason for that".

UNKNOWN: The reason for that was that they were not 
accused of Third Force activities and they were actually the 
operational section.  There was already a kind of a stigma 
attached to Vlakplaas at the time that they were involved in 
Third Force activities.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you, you are excused.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, before the witness is excused. 
 In respect of the matter of Brian Ngqulunga, we did some 
research and we got hold of parts of the record of the 
evidence in the Eugene de Kock trial, and we also are going 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 148

UNKNOWN: to be placed in possession this evening of the excerpts of 
Ngqulunga's evidence before the Harms Commission, which we 
deem important for this Committee.  Now I have in my 
possession bundles of the evidence in the De Kock trial, 
especially, well, actually the evidence of Warrant Officer 
Nortje.  I intend to hand that in to the Committee, but what 
I want to do, Mr Chairman, and it is going to be very short, 
is refer you to one or two pages in the evidence and ask 
Capt Mentz's commentary on that, if you will allow me to.

HASSAN MALL: Is Nortje going to come to give evidence?

UNKNOWN: Pardon, Mr Chairman?

HASSAN MALL: Will Nortje be coming to give evidence?

UNKNOWN: He is a State witness, Mr Chairman, I am 
not sure - not in this application.  Not in this 
application. He is a State witness, I am not sure if he is 
applying for amnesty.

HASSAN MALL: Don't know whether he has.

UNKNOWN: Or whether he has, I don't know.  But as 
far as I know all State witnesses did apply for amnesty, so 
we can accept that he probably did.

HASSAN MALL: You would like to put portions of the evidence 
given by Nortje in that case to this witness?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I just want his comments.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I want his comments on that.

HASSAN MALL: Does it affect him or implicate him?

UNKNOWN: There is mention of him in the evidence, Mr 
Chairman. I may mention - perhaps I can give you an idea of 
the purpose thereof, and if the Committee doesn't deem it 
important or necessary, then we can dispense with it.
	There are two aspects which become clear from the 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 149

<UNKNOWN>: evidence.  The first one is that there was a plan to 
eliminate Ngqulunga, apparently and that was the - what Capt 
Mentz testified about that he heard later, apparently 
because there was a worry that he would become scared 
because of the false evidence that he gave in front of the 
Harms Commission.
	Nortje also secondly, confirms the fact that there was 
a second reason for killing Ngqulunga,  and that is that he 
was a person who was giving information to the ANC.  He does 
refer in his evidence to that fact.  I can point that out to 
you.  
	Then thirdly, the evidence indicates that people high 
up in the security headquarters knew exactly what happened 
in this incident, with Ngqulunga.  
	Fourthly, Mr Chairman - pardon, I lost the point now.  
If you could just bear with me.  If you could just bear with 
me, Mr Chairman.  Oh, the last point was that there is also 
evidence in this record pertaining to the fact that De Kock 
wanted the people who were involved in this matter, that is 
Bellingham, Botha, Baker and Mentz, and especially Baker and 
Bellingham, to be tied up with an incident such as this, so 
as to have a hold over them.  That is the gist of what I 
wanted his comments on. I can, however, just hand it in and 
deal with that in argument, if the Committee doesn't deem it 
necessary to hear any evidence on this.

HASSAN MALL: I think you may proceed by putting that to your 
witness.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I beg leave to 
hand up sets of the copies of the record of Nortje's 
evidence.  It is thick but I am going to refer you to just 
the relevant pages.  That would be, I think EXHIBIT AA, Mr 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 150

UNKNOWN: Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chairman, I want to place on record that I haven't 
provided Mr Mpshe with a copy of this, which I perhaps 
should have done earlier in this week and it is my mistake 
that I didn't do that. If he needs to ask any questions 
about that, he has got a problem with that, then that's my 
fault.  May I proceed, Mr Chairman?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, sure.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, am I correct that this is 
Exhibit AA?

HASSAN MALL: Annexure AA, yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Exhibit AA.