Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DREYER: I will proceed Mr Kloppers, I refer you to page 680 of those proceedings, approximately line 20.  The question was the following, what sort of weapons and ammunition were you looking for?  Any weapons would have been fine Your Honour, because they were necessary, it was only a few days before, and this is according to your impression, the war would begin.  And then you answer, that was my opinion because I believed that there would be so many AWB people together that from there on they would be able to move out, and therefore it confirms once again that you believed that the war or the armed struggle as you described it, would commence a few days later, and that would be on the 16th of December.  Do you concur?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I concur.

MR DREYER: Then I would like to refer you to the following page.  This is still about the 12th of December because the incident occurred on the 12th of December, it is put to you a third time, according to your own impression the war, and this time it is not the armed struggle, it is now the war, would have begun in a matter of four days, four days from the 12th, and that again points to the 16th, and your answer, that was my opinion.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That was my opinion that it would commence on that day.

MR DREYER: Then I would like to refer you to page 780 in the next volume, I beg your pardon page 722.  It reads as follows, this is about what the idea behind this conduct was and I will read a section of this to you.
	You did not have anything against organising such illegal conduct and your answer is, at that stage, and this is the 12th, I felt that we could improve our image in public, if we could get weapons by means of this road block.  Even though it would be illegal, we felt that we could achieve greater exposure in the public, is that publicity for the AWB and your answer was, I think it would have been good publicity for us to see that the AWB was handing illegal weapons to the Police.

MR DREYER: Then the concluding aspect, with the aim on the war which would begin four days later, on the 16th?  Your Honour, I did not say that the war would begin on the 16th, but what I did say was that I thought to myself that this would be a very good opportunity because then all the AWB people would be together at Voortrekkerhoogte.
	I don't care who alleges this, but if I interpret this concluding aspect of your testimony, it appears that you were actually of the opinion that the war would in fact begin on the 16th.  You really thought that that would be a good opportunity because then a whole bunch of AWB people would be together.  How else must we interpret this?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: You must remember Chairperson, that I had spent a great deal of time in prison at that point, and absolutely nothing had happened, and it was very clear to me that I had to rely on  my own opinion there, because that which happened or should have happened, never happened.
	That which Gen Oelofse propagated and which he gave us orders in regard to, never happened.

MR DREYER: But that was my question, you have said it in your own words.  You took this on your own opinion, and that is the core aspect of my question and my statements.
	I am not saying that you did not convey to the rest of the group that which they believed to be an order from the higher authority, I am saying that what you conveyed, was never an order in itself to initiate a revolution as you have testified, there was no such order.
	You based your opinion on a faulty interpretation.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If it was a faulty interpretation, then I shall take you back to 1995 in December, when the Generals in staff were all present with Gen Oelofse at Diepkloof and they thanked me for my loyalty in the AWB and the execution of my duties which were given to me on that evening, and that was why I was promoted to the rank of Brigadier.
	I say it clearly that it was said on that day by the leaders themselves, that if every other person had acted in the same way that they should have, we would not be in prison.  That is why we did not misinterpret that order.

MR DREYER: Do you expect us to accept that one moment you would use that which was said to you by the AWB leaders in prison in order to lend credibility to your actions, but when you concluded your chief evidence, you severely criticised him and called him a liar and said that you had to sit in this predicament today, which horse are you going to ride?
	Do you want the Committee to believe the first version or do you want the Committee to believe that he has let you down?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I am taking up the issue of absolute lies, because it could only have been a lie which he said to me that day.

MR DREYER: In the light of the facts that you have said a little while ago that you behaved according to your own opinion, that this contradicts that you acted according to what Gen Oelofse told you, so therefore you acted according to your own opinion.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: In which case?

MR DREYER: I am referring specifically to the road block and the loss of life which transpired there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Under no circumstances did I say that I acted according to my own opinion with the road block, I acted absolutely according to the orders of Gen Oelofse.

MR DREYER: Mr Kloppers, the record will speak for itself.
	Let us examine further aspects regarding the testimony given during the criminal proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: That was not according to his own version, but his version during the criminal proceedings.

MR DREYER: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: You shouldn't put it to him that it is his version, because then you are giving a wrong impression.  It is not his version to us. What you are putting to him it is his version in the criminal court.

MR DREYER: In the criminal court, yes, My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: You must be clear and specific and put it to him that according to your version during the criminal trial, it was purely your personal opinion that there would be war or revolution or whatever on the 16th of December 1993.

MR DREYER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  If I had not qualified it as such, I now do qualify it as such.
	Mr Kloppers, may I just rephrase this.  While you spoke during the criminal proceeding and I have presented four examples to you from which it is clear that the so-called revolution, armed struggle or war or whatever we would like to call it, would not occur or begin on the 12th of December but on the 16th of December, you then ... (tape ends)
TAPE 8 : ENGLISH ONLY : NO AUDIO ON TAPE 8 ENG/FLOOR - BECAUSE OF THE INTERPRETATION, I CANNOT DISTINGUISH WHO IS WHO ON HERE

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: ... war that starts on the 12th of December, then it is surprising that on the 12th of December we were called to an Order Group meeting whereas other people would have been available therefore.

MR DREYER: It is very strange if one looks at the criminal proceedings at page 670, approximately line 10, the question is posed to you and it refers to the order group meeting.
	Was the war discussed that afternoon, and you then say the following in your own words, it was never directly referred to that we would wage war on that day, but there will not be a 27th of April.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Where does the 12th of December come from then?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The day of the 12th, was the day of the Order Group meeting where all the area leaders met.  I have answered this question already, this is the day upon which the revolution was supposed to begin.