Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: They gave me a new name that day, even my father didn't give me that name.  They gave me the name of "The Big Rat."

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  When you were there, were you ever accused of misappropriating funds?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: When I was there?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, pertaining to you, there is nothing politically that was discussed with you?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Not at all.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, was it ever discussed in the meeting that Brigadier Gqozo should resign?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: No, people were just singing, I didn't know what was happening.  I was even far from Gqozo, I was not close to him, so I don't know the connection between myself and him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have already told the Commission that the only thing that was discussed was the issue of money, is that correct?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What was your rank at that time?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I was a Captain at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And what Unit were you attached to then?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Finance.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have already told the Commission that you were charged, what were you charged with?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Fraud.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was it, were you charged on the 23rd of March 1994?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: The case had been registered at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But why were you arrested, what I am getting at, when you were arrested, were you arrested for the case which was investigated throughout?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And it is the case, you were aware, that it was being investigated?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And was it part of the humiliation you already mentioned, the fact that you were arrested on that day?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you recall prior to that date, when was the case opened?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: No, I can't recall, but it was quite a long time.  There was also another case that was investigated, concerning the Commissioners and the senior Officers, but I cannot recall when that was opened.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have heard that the applicants are applying for amnesty, what are you saying to that?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: There is nothing said here that was done to me, so I can't forgive a person who didn't say the truth.  You forgive a person when he has said the truth, and I know that if a person, as a father I know that if a person tells the truth, I can forgive that person as I do to my children, but for now, I can't forgive them because all this, they didn't include or they didn't say what happened to me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Lastly, you have told the Commission that you were charged for fraud.    What was the outcome of the case?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Not guilty and I was discharged.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Mr Obose, have you got any questions?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Captain Makwethu, when Sebe was toppled by Gqozo, you were already a Policeman, isn't that so?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.  We were from the SAP members, we were the ones who started the Ciskei.

MR OBOSE: Isn't it correct that after Sebe had been toppled, some Policemen, senior Policemen and senior Officers in the army were debriefed by those soldiers who were loyal to Gqozo?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: (No interpretation)

MR OBOSE: Isn't it correct that after Gqozo had taken over the military coup ...

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: It was the first time for me to see that.

MR OBOSE: Which is that Police involve themselves in something which was overtly political, is that what you are saying?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: The overthrowing as they were saying.

MR OBOSE: Yes, just repeat yourself Mr Makwethu.

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: The fact that there was that overthrowing, as they were saying, I don't know about that.

MR OBOSE: No Mr Makwethu, but you saw it yourself and that is what you have just told the Commission.  It is the first time for you to see Policemen involved in a coup?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I was not involved in that.  The people who were involved, were those who were in that meeting, those who were aware of the meeting, I was not aware of the meeting.  It was the first time I could see that as they were saying.

MR OBOSE: What were they saying?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: The evidence they were giving here to this Commission today.

MR OBOSE: No, you were in the meeting, what were they saying in the meeting?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I was not in that meeting, I was taken there.

MR OBOSE: Yes, but you were taken to the meeting.

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Against my will, I didn't even know that there was a meeting.

MR OBOSE: Mr Makwethu, it was for the first time to hear or see Police doing what they were doing and I want to know what were they doing in the meeting or what were they saying inside?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I was not in the meeting sir, there is a difference between a meeting and something else.  I don't know what you want me to say, I was not in a meeting there.  Skepe told me what he was taking me from the office to the van, he said that if it was up to him, he was going to take me to the Police station, so which means that they knew what they were taking me for, they were taking me for this issue of money.

MR OBOSE: Mr Makwethu, in other words you never on the 22nd of March 1994, went to the meeting?  You never went there?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I was not in the meeting.

MR OBOSE: Your evidence before this Commission was that you did go to the meeting?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I said I was taken from my office.  I was taken from the office, I was with Mr Gqibithole, I didn't know anything and then we were told that we were needed there and when I asked what for, the one who took us, didn't know anything.

MR OBOSE: Mr Makwethu, did you go to the Bisho Police College hall on the 22nd of March 1994?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes, I went to Bisho Police College at that time, I was taken there.

MR OBOSE: This behaviour of the Police, you say it was for the first time for you to see?  Is that the behaviour that you saw in the hall at Bisho Police College?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: And what behaviour was that?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: The way they were treating me, they made me to stand in front, even though I was an Officer.  They told me to tell their names even though they knew mine and they were singing these songs, so I didn't know what was happening.

MR OBOSE: What songs were sung on that day?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: The freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: And what else?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: And they were saying "down with me".  They were saying "down with me", I didn't understand what was going on.

MR OBOSE: And Gqozo also, isn't it?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR OBOSE: As a Policeman in the Ciskei at the time, Mr Makwethu, wasn't that obviously political, shouting derogatory slogans about the Head of State in a meeting?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: No, it was not obvious that it was political whilst it included myself and the money issues.

MR OBOSE: No, no, I am talking about the singing and the slogans, were they not clearly political?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I don't know, but you could hear that it was the toyi-toyi song, the freedom song.  My worry was that I was not sleeping at home, they didn't know what happened to me.

MR OBOSE: Mr Makwethu, freedom songs you know as a Policeman, are sung in political meetings?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: No, no, I don't know, don't include me in that sir, I don't know.  I never associated myself with that.