Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: It was on the day I got - I assisted them on the car and when I was asking about why do we destroy it and he explained to me and he told me that it has been used in the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Sorry Mr Chairman, there's one aspect leading on from your question and from Mr Lax's question if I may be permitted.
	Mr Ntintili, you dropped out of sight did you not until you were arrested in March of '93, you left the school did you not?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: One of the...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: No, just asked the question did you drop out of sight, did you leave the area.

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: That language is in the South African ...[inaudible] Police I mean so...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Just answer the question, please, did you go away from where you were at the school?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: I never did that.

MR PRIOR: You were arrested in March of '93 is that correct?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: That's true.

MR PRIOR: And you were taken...[intervention]

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Not in March '93, in February.

MR PRIOR: You were taken into custody?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: That's true.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct it's thereafter you gave certain information to the police?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: What?

MR PRIOR: Which led to the...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, let him answer the first question before you...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Did you give information to the police regarding your participation in the arrangements around the Golf Club?  The accommodation you supplied and so forth?  Did you or did you not?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: The police sucked information out of me.

MR PRIOR: And as a result of that information they then started investigating against Mr Xundu, against Vito and so forth is that correct?

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: Actually I think you need to qualify which information.

MR PRIOR: About who perpetrated the attack at King William's Town.

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: About?

MR PRIOR: About the King William's Town Golf Club attack.

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: No the information they asked about it are, from me which I gave them was the question of knowing Xundu and which I accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you read paragraph 5 of his affidavit Mr Prior as to how the police got information from him?

MR PRIOR: Yes he makes an allegation, I don't know if there was a trial, it's an allegation at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: If such information, if information was obtained in that manner is it proper to use it now?

MR PRIOR: ...[inaudible] Mr Chairman, with respect it...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to offer assistance Mr Chairman, I think the applicant here has sued the police in the Grahamstown High Court for that but I think he ran out of funds I understand so he couldn't pursue his application.

MR PRIOR: I don't choose to pursue it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But that was the point for alleging that he was assaulted and detained and ...[inaudible] that's before the High Court in Grahamstown.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

LUNGISUMSI NTINTILI: I'm sorry, I wish to comment on this.  I'm perturbed to find a man who is serving on this Commission to use any information that he sees and is coming from the murderers and I take that man that he was enjoying the murderers actions that were made to us and because we don't have money we couldn't challenge, we couldn't challenge those murderers and because of this negotiated settlement, this sunset clause, they were given money by this government so that they can be covered so that we cannot expose the brutalities they have been making to the African people through all these three hundred years and for anyone who is using that information in this platform then that person needs to apologise to the Azanian people because he's not supposed to use it.
ADV. GCABASHE: If I might just interject here Mr Ntintili through you Chair, we as an Amnesty Committee and as a TRC, certainly Mr Prior, have to source information wherever we can get it, we have a difficulty in sourcing information.  I would simply like you appreciate the fact that there are as, it's quite obvious, a lot of SAP material that we have to rely on simply because we want these applications to be processed and I want would like you to accept that our bona fide is in using information that is given to us and challenge it where you are able to.  It's your right to do that but we need to process these applications on the basis of what information does come before us.

ADV SANDI: Perhaps if I can just express myself here.  I did not understand Mr Prior to be using that information in the sense of saying it is true.  He was simply putting a question to you here.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he's not proceeding with it so I don't think it's of any relevance whatsoever to the present enquiry.

MR PRIOR: I think Mr Davis has a question.
	  I'd ask you to keep quiet please, please show some respect, you expect us to show respect to everybody in these proceedings.

MARK DAVIS: This is actually not a question, I would just like to make a matter clear to the Commission.  I obviously found it disturbing that Mr Ntintili implied that my father was a justified target in this attack on the basis that he was an immigrant from Zimbabwe.  He had no association with Zimbabwe at all, I just want to make that clear to the Commission.  Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Davis, in due course you will have an opportunity to give evidence and perhaps you could put it on record then under oath, it would be an appropriate time but thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think that the applicant didn't say it was your father he said if it was Dr Davis whom he knew, that  was obviously not your father.

MARK DAVIS: My father was Dr. Davis.

CHAIRPERSON: But not the one he knew, apparently.

MARK DAVIS: Possibly.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I think we'll take the adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We have been asked on behalf of one of the victims to put two questions to the applicant.  You have no objection to that procedure have you?

MR XUNDU: (s.u.o.)
	I have no objection Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The first question is do you believe that your actions in connection with the incident furthered your political objectives?

MR XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm going to handle this question as a political, as a member of the PAC first and also as a soldier of the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army.
	Yes I believe that the incident served to make the white people in South Africa realise that a revolutionary violence is perpetrated by the APLA forces and the PAC is right in their doorsteps and that ...[inaudible] has phsyco-political effects in that it broke the confidence of the white community over the ability of the security network, complicated, sophisticated as it was, to protect them.  Rather than on that point if my memory serves me well there was once a comment in the Daily Despatch by General Kat Liebenberg to the effect that the South African Defence Force doesn't have the capability to protect each and every individual white as they expected and as it seems to be the demand therefore that on it's own created contradictions in terms of interest for the first time in the history of this country, that the government and it's constituency cannot move in one perfect step in terms of political interest.  It is logical therefore to say that the government on account of such pressures had to speedily negotiate out power to prevent such operations being conducted against their constituencies and establishment.
	Needless to mention the excitement and the extent to which the capacity of the PAC politically was re-enforced after the operation.