Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gwamanda, I want to put to you a difficulty that I have then with your amnesty application.  For a start you've got a comprehensive criminal record of at least nine previous convictions, all of which are unrelated to politics.  On your own evidence you say that you expected monetary reward in respect of an attack to be carried out on Mr Phosa.  
	In respect of the alleged attack on Mr Gumede you cannot dispute that money might have been taken from the scene and you yourself were stealing the motor vehicle belonging to that taxi owner.
	Now I put it to you that your primary motive in these offences was not of a political one but merely crime for your own benefit and reward.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Thank you, Chairperson.  I will try and explain it.  It was not my intention or I did not have criminal intentions.  It is true that I have the criminal record.  I did not have any criminal intentions or objectives with regards to what happened at that area.
	What you could say it may have been criminal activity that was directed or orchestrated by Mr Mfayela because this was done on his instructions and I was not alone when this happened.  I did not take any cash from whatever person.  	
	If it was something that is directly related to me or if I had intentions of committing criminal activities I would have mentioned this because I was looked after at my home but these matters related to political intentions, Mr Mfayela's intentions.  
	I should also direct you to paragraph 7 of the same affidavit which related to Mr Mfayela and the person concerned.   ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, did Mr Mfayela at any stage offer you a reward for performing acts ordered by him or did he in fact ever pay you any money for doing any acts instructed by him?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, he never specified amounts for these activities, except of course when we would require money for whatever the reason, maybe for food or something but he would never pay me any specific amounts for these activities.  If I remember correctly, he gave me money twice, about R300,00 or R400,00.

CHAIRPERSON: Those payments of R300,00 or R400,00 twice, was that because you had done work for him, as a reward or was it for you to buy food or what was it?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: It would be something like pocket money.  Maybe I would say I do not have any money and he would give me some money, maybe to buy cigarettes or something, not to say that it was a reward.
	When I enquired about my salary, who was supposed to pay my salary, he told me that he was in contact with Mr Mzimela from Ulundi.  There is a statement that was taken Stephan Meyer, a statement relating to what I'm explaining now but it does not appear amongst the bundle.  That statement was deposed to by me in the prison.  The statement is not in the bundle though ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, at that stage in November, round about November 1993 when you were acting as bodyguard for Mr Mfayela, you weren't getting a regular monthly salary for that work, being a bodyguard?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, I did not receive a salary.  That is why I started enquiring about my salary and I was told that Mr Mzimela was pursuing the matter, Mr Mzimela from Ulundi.  I did explain this in a statement to the TRC Investigators.  I did not receive a reward as such but I did receive pocket money.

MR FALCONER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, there's one last aspect that I need to deal with with this witness.  I see that we're approaching the lunch adjournment time and I believe it may assist this Commission if I'm afforded an opportunity to get information from the records at the Westville Prison.  I can obtain those hopefully during the lunch adjournment so it may be an appropriate opportunity if we were to take the adjournment now.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd prefer it if we could have a shorter lunch adjournment, in the hope that we can proceed further with this matter today.  I was thinking in terms of say half an hour or say at most a forty minute lunch adjournment.   If you could try and keep to that then, Mr Falconer.
	Yes, Mr Gwamanda?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Sorry, Mr Chairman.  I would like to apologise for the incident that happened before.  I was quite upset.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Gwamanda, we can understand you being distraught and upset and we don't hold it against you at all.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I do beg your pardon, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now take the lunch adjournment for half an hour, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Falconer?

MR FALCONER: (continued)  Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Gwamanda, can I refer you to page 2 of the bundle of documents before you, which is the form you completed for amnesty.  You'll see at paragraph 9(a) (ii), it's the second bottom paragraph there, they refer to dates and there you've recorded dates of the matters for which you seek amnesty as being the 28th, 29th and 30th November 1993, being the dates of the alleged incidents.  Do you see that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, I see it.

MR FALCONER: What is confusing to me, Mr Gwamanda, is that I'm informed that you were arrested in respect of the pension robbery on or about the 23rd of November 1993, would you dispute that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I dispute it.  The pension crime happened on the 24th of November.

MR FALCONER: And on what date were you arrested in respect of the pension crime?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Just hold on a bit, I'd like to have a look at the calendar.  It was the 24th of November.  With regards to the pension issue I was not exactly arrested but I was helping the police in identifying the people who were involved.  But because of the information that I had I had to sleep or spend my time at the police station, that is in the cells of the kwaMashu Police Station because I had been involved in the planning of this issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, so are you saying that the pension robbery, that occurred on the 24th of November, was it one the same day that you then starting assisting the police or when did you have to stay with the police?  As you say you weren't arrested exactly but you had to stay with the police as you were helping, when did that happen?  Was it also on the 24th or was it later?  If it was later, can you remember more or less when?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I remember quite clearly.  I got into contact with a detective from Ndwedwe, Mr Mhlongo on the same day, the 24th, immediately after the incident occurred.  That was when I started working with the policemen.

MR FALCONER: Mr Gwamanda, how long did you remain with the police whilst you assisted them with their investigations in that matter?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: It was the 24th, 25th and then on the 26th when they had rounded up the people who had been involved they released me in the afternoon of the 26th.  They took me home because even the suspects in the pension crime were not denying the crime.  I was released on the 26th in the afternoon and they left me at home.

MR FALCONER: The offence for which you are currently incarcerated, when did that take place?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I do not know when it occurred.  I was arrested on the 6th of December and they wanted guns from me but with regards to the crime I have no idea when it did happen or what it was all about but I was arrested on the 6th of December.

MR FALCONER: You see the information I have at my disposal reflects that the case number for which, the case in which you were convicted, the case number is one which was opened in October 1993.  In fact it's number 252/10/93, would you agree with that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Let me just have a look.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: My case number is 41505893.