Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

MR LAX: Let me remind you, let me remind you Mr Xundu, that you are here voluntarily, at your own request.  If you want to withdraw this application and go home you're welcome to do so.  If you're going to be here, then with all due respect, you should remember that you are here voluntarily.
	No-one asked you to come before us, you chose to come here, it's your choice.  I would be very careful about my choice of words if I was, this is not a political grandstand.  Let's get on with the work we are here to do.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, but I don't think your statement is reasonable.  I mean, you cannot tell me - I know that I have come here consciously and hence I've said
"I the undersigned Thembelani Tandekile Xundu"
I know I have come here consciously and nobody pushed me, I know that.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, when I came in you were just about to lead the witness on paragraph 28, was it 28?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Xundu, can we go to paragraph 8.  Can you tell the Committee how did you go about reaching the family from which you took the Jetta away?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  It must be appreciated first that after the 28th November incident, I mean the police were after me, they had my photo by hook or by crook, so I could not even go to or try and trace the owner of the Jetta and try to make some peace with him.  I mean, I concentrated on my hiding.
	The circumstances operationally demanded so.  But I've stated here that the incident is one that my conscience cannot come to terms with, that was the whole drive why I did that.  I went to the family of the owner of the car together with the director of operations, because this was reported to him and he knew very well about it, and together with some other PAC leaders like comrade Sneki and others, where we - where I gave them a full account of all that happened and apologised to them.  That is how I reached them.

UNKNOWN: When was this, just give us a date?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I'll not be sure about the date but somewhere, it should be last year.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all I wanted to lead the applicant on Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I'm not sure if we've been told or whether we've put it on record or not, about a discussion we had before we started.  Have there affidavits been signed and attested to?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman not to inform you, that has been done.  I handed the copy over to the leader of evidence Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I know it had been arranged but we haven't been, it has now been done so we can accept that, thank you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I confirm that I have a bundle of signed documents as the original and refer to it as the original bundle.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Xundu, I am a leader of evidence for the Amnesty Committee and because victims who are present here today, people who were injured and who lost loved ones in your attack, are not regally represented and they are relying to a large extent on the evidence leader to put questions to the applicants in this matter.  Do you understand that position?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I understand Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Now, as a soldier of APLA it would seem, from my understanding of your evidence, that there was a code of discipline within that organisation, is that correct?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, correct.

MR PRIOR: And is it correct that there was political accountability by APLA to the political organisation, that is the PAC?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And every military act, as I understood your evidence, had to be politically accountable or be able to be politically accountable?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, it had to fall within the mandate given by the PAC and the whole strategy of the PAC.

MR PRIOR: And is it also correct that as a soldier of APLA you were also a member of the PAC, you were not removed from membership of the PAC, is that correct?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Absolutely correct.

MR PRIOR: So whilst you were a soldier fighting the war of liberation you also had to be mindful of the political decrees and political policies by the PAC, is that correct.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, to that effect I was a Commissar.

MR PRIOR: And sometimes that those political decisions were not always popular within the broad membership of the PAC, which included APLA?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: What are you now referring to?

MR PRIOR: I want to lay a foundation for asking specific questions.  Political decisions weren't always popular amongst the members, for example the agreement or the decision to participate in the constitutional negotiations and the ultimate suspension of the armed struggle.  Those political decisions were not always popular amongst the soldiers, is that correct?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: But at no stage did they effect me.

MR PRIOR: No, but answer the question.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, if you want me to speak on behalf of the other people, I may say: "yes".

MR PRIOR: Well you even said in your evidence that you were not, as an individual you had reservations about negotiated settlement.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: And that was the broad position of the PAC.

MR PRIOR: What I'm saying is, at some stage the membership of APLA, the soldiers, weren't entirely happy with the decision by the PAC to participate in a peaceful and negotiated settlement.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Would you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you say the members of APLA, indicating that all the members of APLA were not?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I indicated it and I qualify that the question, it was a genuine question, a genuine proposition.  I certainly don't mean to include each and every member.  I said there were certain instances where political decisions were made which were not popular among for example, the soldiers.  I don't know how to qualify the ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Maybe I can help Mr Prior.  Let's try and direct the question to Mr Xundu on the basis that he commanded certain people, his experience would entail those people and the people he was in contact with.  So if the question is specifically directed to encompass people he was in contact with and were under his command, were there instances in your knowledge and in your experience where aspects of the political programme were not accepted by the cadres that you had contact with?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Not to my knowledge Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Was there ever the situation that operations were carried out without the political mandate and then were simply, because of the psychological impact of those attacks or those operations, they were then embraced by the PAC as being sanctioned by them?  Do you understand what I'm getting at?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I understand but I don't have such experience.

MR PRIOR: For example King William's Town, you said that you had the authority or the go ahead from the director or operations, Leklapa Mpashlele, is that correct?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, it is Chairman.

MR PRIOR: And who was he answerable to, do you know?  Who did he have to report to in turn?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: The operations department was part of the senior departments in the army, all the senior directorates so I think he reported directly to comrade Subs(?).

MR PRIOR: The political commissar?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  I think he directed straight to comrade Sabelo and I think also comrade Dan because Dan was a chief political commissar and therefore the second in command.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify for the record, you refer to comrade Subs and then you said Sabelo, you're referring to Sabelo Pama, the late Sabelo Pama.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, yes.

MR LAX: And when you refer to Dan, you refer to Dan Mofokeng?