Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-29

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, for a number of reasons I did not do so.  The most important being intimidation, intimidation from people on the outside and influence.  I didn't want to do it, I didn't want anybody to know what I was going to do.

CHAIRPERSON: But you just told us you did tell Mr Botha.

MR WESSELS: I told Mr Botha because I trust him and he was also told that it shouldn't go any further and that he should not convey this knowledge to anybody.

MR WESSELS: You have stated that you and Botha have come a long way together, that you are blood brothers, but he is not in jail with you.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient time to take the tea adjournment Mr Wessels.

MS COLERIDGE: Mr Chairman I am sorry I had a request that we sit until 11H30.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, we have had a request that we sit until 11h30, is that a request from the caterers, the people who make the tea.

MS COLERIDGE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we will sit until 11h30, sorry, as you were.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard you testified to a question which was put to you by your advocate that while you were in the CCB and you also discussed this with Mr Botha, all of you were handled on a strictly need-to-know basis.

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was supposed to be that way, yes.

MR WESSELS: When did you realise that Mr Botha was working for the same organisation as you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot say.  I told you that at a certain stage we exercised together and we would check each other out and then one day we spoke about it.  It was one of those affirmative phases.

MR WESSELS: I didn't hear you.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I assumed that it was during Botha's establishment phase.

MR WESSELS: Was it before the Webster incident?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes it was quite some time before the Webster incident.

MR WESSELS: And there was a strict procedure which was created according to which Mr Botha was to act inasfar as it concerned his work with the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: A strict basis of need-to-know, correct?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: He knew that instructions were given in a certain manner which would be supported by the regional manager as we have heard here, is that correct?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes it must be correct.

MR WESSELS: And when you told him to become involved with Webster and that it was the CCB wasn't he surprised that in the light of everything that he had learnt you came along and received a direct instruction from Joe Verster to commit the act yourself?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot see the problem with that.  The cut-off point was Joe Verster.    What Joe Verster and Lafras Luitingh had was a water-tight point.  I didn't know their identities.  My only point of contact with them was a pager which was hired under the name of David Klopper and I knew it wasn't David Klopper because here we had a man who introduced himself as Louis Eisselaar.  They had a very water-tight cut-off point with me.  No-one knew that Tiens Kruger told me that this was Joe Verster and that was Lafras Luitingh.  He did parachute jumping with Lafras Luitingh and he informed me.  According to them they had a water-tight cut-off point.

MR WESSELS: How can it be that way, Mr Barnard, because if you were to be arrested for Webster it would be very easy for you to get to them by means of Kruger, at the very least, or by Botha?

FERDINAND BARNARD: You cannot say that because I could take them to Kruger and Kruger could deny everything and he could say the man is crazy, he has just come out of prison, he has a record for theft and murder.  No-one would believe me.  If I came and spoke of the secret Defence Force organisation they would deny everything.  Even today still they deny that I was a member of their organisation.  Why would they have admitted to it then?

MR WESSELS: So you say that the mere denial from Kruger would have been enough and the police would have accepted that as such.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, Kruger worked at head office in the CCB.  Police visited him regularly and from him they went to Joe Verster and they would plan things.  They could plan to discredit me for example.  This is a man who came out of jail they would think, and they would think of ways to discredit me.  The man is a recce, he wouldn't jump out immediately and say I know everything, here are the computer records, that's the story.  These people felt self-satisfied with themselves.  I know that I caused problems because I didn't obey the rules, but at least I got something done.  One could become such a spy that one would become so isolated that one would never get anything done.  From what I can see I was one of the busiest people in the CCB, because everybody else was busy with establishment.  I was the only one who was really working.

MR WESSELS: When did you determine that Slang van Zyl was a CCB member?

FERDINAND BARNARD: From a discussion with Calla Botha.  I cannot say specifically when, but when we had the discussion Mr Botha disclosed to me that Chappie Maree, Staal Burger and all of them were recruited together as a group.

MR WESSELS: Was that before or after Webster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I am assuming that it was before Webster.  I cannot recall specifically with regards to dates and times but logic tells me that it was prior to Webster.

MR WESSELS: And at any points in the past did you work for more than one institution?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Military institution?

MR WESSELS: Yes.

FERDINAND BARNARD: At the same time?

MR WESSELS: Yes.

FERDINAND BARNARD: No.

MR WESSELS: Did you ever receive money from any institution with the exception of DCC and the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes from the SAP.

MR WESSELS: As what?

FERDINAND BARNARD: As someone who had provided information for them.  I placed organised crime agents for them in places where they couldn't dream of reaching.

MR WESSELS: Since when were you doing this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Over a number of years.  Sometimes I would receive information from my sources - say for example Corobrick was robbed and R1.1-million was stolen and two people were shot dead, the robbers would come to me and give me the information and I would take it to Captain Landman and tell him, such and such a source gave me this information and I would take the source out to the place with them, we would show them where the vehicles and the weapons were and where the culprits were sleeping.  Brixton would then strike.  I have received informer fees of R70,000 in such fashion.

MR WESSELS: Did you do any other work for the Police before you joined the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot recall.  It is very difficult for me to attach a time factor to this.  If I received such information I would give it to the Police.

MR WESSELS: So it is possible that you received payment from them before that time?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes it is possible, it is not impossible at all.

MR WESSELS: Did you ever receive any remuneration from the Police in their Counter-insurgency Unit?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I don't know if one could place Vlakplaas in the Counter-insurgency Unit but I received remuneration from them.

MR WESSELS: So you worked for Vlakplaas as well?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No I did not.  I assisted them.  It was when they were down-scaling and we had to focus on crime I took out a printing press with false notes, I took out hijacked goods, robbers, some of them were MK, some of them were not, but when they started operating on the crime level I liaised with them very closely.  We established arms caches in which the arms which were there were provided to me by Eugene de Kock.  He can confirm this.  I liaised with him quite closely and co-operated with him very closely on this basis.

MR WESSELS: Were you also involved in crimes which were committed by Vlakplaas?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes I was.

MR WESSELS: Which crimes?