Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: May we hand in a portion of a transcript recorded at Cradock on 24th June 1985, Mr Chairman, as exhibit "L".
	Will you please look at page 17, the last page of that statement.  This comes as a report of the person that was listening to the telephone of Mr Goniwe, Mr Chairman and was made public at the inquest before Judge Zietsman.
	Please look at the last page.  You see there the 4th line.  	
	"Molly	Now Matthew, tell me did you receive any letter 	in connection with your appointment?
	Matthew	No, not as yet, but it is probably on the way.
	Molly   I would like to be part of your celebration.
	Matthew	Okay. (And they laugh)."
	How come that Molly Blackburn knew about Matthew's re-appointment, or proposed re-appointment, and you, the person so closely connected with the investigation as to whether Goniwe should live or die, were ignorant of it?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is if we accept that they are serious in this conversation, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: What's the joke?  That they may have purported to engage in not being serious.
	We know that there was a recommendation on 12th June, we know that the Commissioner of Police recommended it, we know that the Security Council Secretariat recommended it and you say that this might be a joke.

MR J VAN ZYL: They are laughing.

GEORGE BIZOS: I suggest to you that the only joke about it is that you should think about it being a joke.

MR J VAN ZYL: Not at all.  They are laughing at the end.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, they are laughing because of the party that was going to take place.  Are you saying that this is not evidence that Molly Blackburn knew about his re-appointment?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I'm not saying that Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: So, what is the idea of trying to dismiss it as a joke?

MR J VAN ZYL: I'm not trying to dismiss it as a joke.  I said that, and I said before that I did not know about this re-appointment, Mr Chairman.  Or I cannot remember that I knew at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, the question is simple.
	Around the 25th, that was before Mr Goniwe was killed, Molly Blackburn knew of his re-appointment.  The question from Mr Bizos is how is it that Molly Blackburn could have know about it and not you?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember if I knew.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now that's a very interesting twist of events, Mr van Zyl.
	Your answer suggests that you might well have been told about his proposed re-appointment.  Otherwise you wouldn't have given that answer, would you?

MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, are you saying to the Committee that it was possible that you proceeded with the murder of Goniwe well knowing that there was a recommendation from the highest authority that he should be appointed as principal at the Cradock school?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, there were daily discussions of all these activities.  It is very possible that this re-appointment was discussed as well.
	If there was an instruction to stop with the plans to carry out this operation, I would expect that to have come from my superiors.  I cannot remember if we discussed it, I am speculating.

GEORGE BIZOS: If it is established that the question of the re-appointment was public knowledge, public in the sense that people interested in the fate of Mr Goniwe and what was going to be the future of Cradock and the education of their children, and you might have heard about it, did you not think that it was incumbent upon you to try and find out whether authorities higher than Du Plessis, higher than Van Rensburg, higher than Snyman, did not think that it was in the interests of the country to kill Goniwe, before you went on with it.  Shouldn't you have tried to find out what is this business about the re-appointment of Goniwe.  Here I am, planning to murder him and others are writing him letters that he is going to be re-appointed.

MR J VAN ZYL: What is the question Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: Shouldn't you have enquired before continuing with the execution of your murder plan?

MR J VAN ZYL: As I have said Mr Chairman, this was discussed everyday.  It was, I cannot remember whether his re-appointment was discussed and perhaps I should have enquired.  I cannot remember if I even did that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Don't you recall that quite a fuss was made by the then unusual event of a Minister inviting Mr Goniwe to talk to him about how the problems of the district could be solved?

MR J VAN ZYL: That I don't remember, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Had you not heard that the Regional Commissioner of Education had gone to Cradock in order to meet Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember knowing of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: How could these things have passed by the person who had been given this awesome responsibility of murdering Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: A long time has passed, Mr Chairman.  I don't remember those events.

GEORGE BIZOS: People may be excused for not remembering what happened in humdrum events that we perform as a matter of course.  Surely matters of life and death you would have remembered if you wanted to speak the truth, Mr van Zyl?

MR J VAN ZYL: It is a long time.  I don't think it is unnatural that I cannot remember the finer matters of this case, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: This is not finer detail, is it Mr van Zyl?  It goes to matters of life and death.
	There may of course - have you got any answer?

MR J VAN ZYL: I think it is - it should be considered as finer details, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  Finer details.
	Unless of course you well knew of what Minister De Beer and his department were doing and it was going to be, you'll forgive the expression, "over your dead body", that Goniwe would be re-appointed.  You were going to see to it that those attempts were frustrated.

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I was still not the last person to decide whether this operation should carry on or not. There is no way that I could say "over my dead body" would this have happened.  I was working on instructions as well.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you have carried out those instructions if you knew that there was a recommendation to re-appoint Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: As I say, I don't know.  I cannot remember if there was a recommendation, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am asking you hypothetically in order to test your state of mind.
	Would you have carried out the instruction to kill Goniwe if you knew that there was a recommendation that he should be re-appointed?

MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: What is possible?

MR J VAN ZYL: That I would have done it.  I cannot answer for what I would have done then, but I would think that it was possible that we would have carried it out if the instruction was to continue with the operation.

GEORGE BIZOS: The very least you ought to have done, I would suggest, as the person charged with doing the actual killing, to say, "Hey, there appears to be a contradiction here.  One arm of the State says re-appoint him as principal, and a Colonel in Port Elizabeth and his subordinates told me to kill him.  I want clarity before I become a murderer.  Whether this is authorised by the State by whom I am employed, because the State appears to be talking with more than one voice".

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I am being asked to speculate on what I would have done.  If it was in the interest of the State's security and I had considered it so, and this instruction was to carry on, I would probably have done that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Irrespective of what knowledge you might have had that the Commissioner of Police had recommended that he should merely be restricted at home during the night hours, but allowed to teach and the Secretariat of the Security Council had recommended that he should go back to school and only matters covered by the regulations of the Education Department were to apply to him.
	You would still have done it?