Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR PRINSLOO: Yes please.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr De Bruin, if the idea that was propagated within AWB circles, as prescribed by yourself, the idea to disrupt the elections by means of violence, now if sufficient numbers of people had done what the applicants did, the applicants in this matter, do you think that that would have achieved the objectives so propagated by the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It's possible.

MR PRINSLOO: So within that context, you would agree that the actions of the applicants made sense?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moloi, do you have any questions you wish to put to the witness?

MR MOLOI: Mr Chairman, I'd like to clear a few issues with the witness.   Mr De Bruin, exactly when did you come to know the two applicants?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It was in 1992, at the mine where we worked, that's where I got to know them.

MR MOLOI: From which time did you know them to be members of the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It was towards the end of 1992, beginning of
'93, they went to AWB meetings with me.

MR MOLOI: You have mentioned that you know they did complete certain application forms for membership.   When was that?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It was at these meetings, I can't remember the specific meeting, but I know of application forms which they filled in at these meetings.

MR MOLOI: Had you also completed a similar application form to become a member?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, I filled in a similar form at the offices in Ventersdorp for membership of the AWB.

MR MOLOI: And how long did the process take before you could be issued with a membership card, which you have attached to your affidavit here?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: It took me approximately three months before I received my membership card.

MR MOLOI: Did you at any stage inquire from the applicants whether or not they had received their membership cards three months or more after the forms were completed?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, but I told them that there was such a card and I showed them what it looked like, and I told them they had to wait for that, they would receive that to prove that they were members.

MR MOLOI: Were you in their company and also attended meetings with them, say three months or so after their application forms were completed?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.   Yes, we attended meetings, but I can't recall specific time periods, but after their applications had been filled in, we again attended meetings.

MR MOLOI: If you would not receive your membership card, having completed the forms duly, after say six months, what would you have done?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: I would inquire as to what was going on, but it was generally accepted that if you filled in the form, you were already a registered member and you don't have any problems.   It wasn't essential to have a membership card to prove that you were a member.

MR MOLOI: There was no need at all to screen you, for instance to determine whether you are now a leftist, so to say, attempting to infiltrate the AWB, that was all irrelevant, you just had to complete the form and that's it?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes, that's correct, you could simply fill in a form and you were approved and accepted as a member.

MR MOLOI: And then issued with a membership card?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct.

MR MOLOI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Gcabashe, do you have any questions?

UNKNOWN: Yes, thank you.   Just on that point, was there such a thing as a supporter as opposed to a member of the AWB?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What's the distinction?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: A member is someone who had filled out an application form and received a membership card.   Your number would appear on the computer system and that would prove that you are a member, whereas a supporter would be someone who would attend meetings and support the AWB but not want to be directly involved by becoming a registered member of the movement.

UNKNOWN: So it's therefore correct to say that until you have your registered card and you are known of, you are on the computer system, you are a supporter, you're not a member?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, that's not correct, because your membership card might have become lost in the post, but your name would appear on the computer system, indicating that you are a member.   So it's possible to be a member and have one's name on the computer, but if you're a supporter you're not on the computer system or do you have a membership card.

UNKNOWN: But if you don't follow up what might have happened to your application form, can you really assume that you are a member and not a supporter?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes, it could be.

UNKNOWN: No screening is done in this organisation, sir, when you were there, no screening was done to verify the bona fides of the people who wanted to join?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, there was no selecting, because applications were made at the head office or at meetings.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  Now, on a slightly different aspect, you have said that you attended AWB meetings with the applicants"

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: They heard what you heard?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You didn't have to interpret anything to them, they speak Afrikaans like you?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Correct.

UNKNOWN: You never had a uniform?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, but I did have khaki clothing which I wore, however that was not my AWB uniform.

UNKNOWN: Just on that point, khaki uniforms, wearing khaki doesn't qualify you as a member, surely?   It's irrelevant whether you're wearing khaki or red or blue?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, it was basically the same.

UNKNOWN: But your officers would be in full uniform, is that correct?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Then why did the applicants, or why do you think the applicants may have elevated your status to that of officer, because on all the points I've just asked you, you didn't qualify as an officer?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: All that I can say regarding their elevation of me to an officer is because I knew many of the officers and communicated with many of them at meetings, and so therefore the applicants could have made inferences that I might be an officer from seeing such things.

UNKNOWN: But you have confirmed that they heard what you heard when you went to meetings, you didn't have any special privileged information?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: No, no special information whatsoever.

UNKNOWN: And they are adult men, and they were at the time adult men, like you?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: A slightly different aspect again, moving on from that one, I thought I heard you make mention of the SADF uniform, that you were proud to wear that uniform, did I hear correctly?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: But not so the AWB uniform, did I hear correctly?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Now it's difficult for me to understand that, can you explain that to me?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS DE BRUIN: Yes, I can explain it.   Those who wore the AWB uniforms, which were basically khaki clothing, we saw on a number of times how they wore this clothing.    Some people couldn't really fit with the clothing, but they wanted to wear it.   The women in the AWB wear khaki clothing which doesn't suit them, but they wear it nonetheless, and I didn't want to wear the clothing, I didn't want to identify myself with the AWB by wearing such clothing.   That is all that I want to say.