Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-22

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  Today we are proceeding with a matter that was postponed sine die at our last hearing being the applications of Mr Happy A Mngomezulu, application number AM7322/97 and Thulani Christof Madlala, application number AM5993/97.  Ms Moodley, you are still on record as appearing for both applicants, is that not so?  We have a new Evidence Leader and that's Ms Lulama Mtanga who will be taking over the reins of Ms Thabethe.
	At our last hearing we had concluded hearing vive voce evidence of Mr Mngomezulu.  As the Committee was going through the transcripts of those proceedings it became aware that no evidence was led in respect of the two convictions in respect of which amnesty is being sought by Mr Mngomezulu.  Before we commence with the application of Mr Madlala, we would therefore afford Ms Moodley an opportunity of leading evidence-in-chief in respect of those offences for which Mr Mngomezulu also seeks amnesty.

MS MOODLEY: I now intend to lead evidence - am I on record now?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are on record now.

MS MOODLEY: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.  I now intend to lead the evidence in relation to the applications for amnesty in respect of the counts relating to the possession of the firearms as well as ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed to do so.  May I have Mr Mngomezulu taking an oath?  I take it that you still do not have any objection to taking an oath?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: (sworn states)

MS MOODLEY: Mr Mngomezulu, I'm going to take you back to the two counts that we have referred to in our application for amnesty.  They relate to the possession of an unlawful arm and we would like, I'm sure that you're keen to make comments about the particular arm, how you became to be in possession of the arm, would you like to let us hear that this morning?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: Yes.  What I can say is the same thing that I said earlier on as to what happened or what was happening at Wembezi Township.  I had taken the firearm from our commander at the time, our ANC commander, that was before the conflict between the ANC and SACP started.  Our commander at the time was Bheki Msamango.  Unfortunately he has since passed away together with Mr Mdelas Khosana.  Those are the people who were responsible for the firearms so that the organisation can use these in the event of a conflict between the ANC and IFP.
	I had undergone a brief training so that as a result I was given this firearm as well as ammunition both of which we received or obtained from them.  That is what I wanted to clarify.

MS MOODLEY: Honourable Chairperson, just to add that that particular evidence was not led previously and this is fresh evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: We are aware of that.  We think Mr Mngomezulu is mistaken and we take note of the fact that we wouldn't have requested him to lead this evidence if we had already heard it.  We are running out of time and we try to keep our proceedings as short as possible and if evidence has already been given we wouldn't have requested you to ask him to give evidence-in-chief.  Does that conclude your evidence in respect of those counts?

MS MOODLEY: Yes it certainly does.  Yes it does, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOODLEY

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mngomezulu in respect of the evidence he has led relating to the two counts in question?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONSBY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Malan do you have any questions to put to Mr Mngomezulu?

MR MALAN: I think I have a few, Chair.
	Mr Mngomezulu, in your evidence-in-chief you told us that there was no conflict between the ANC and the IFP at the time, is that correct?  At the time of this incident?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: What I stated was that we did not agree between ourselves as the ANC and those who referred to themselves as Amabuvo.

MR MALAN: Please Mr Mngomezulu, just listen to my question.  You told us indeed about the Amabuvo conflict but you told us there was no conflict with the IFP at that stage, it was quiet as far as the IFP is concerned, is that correct?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: What I stated is that yes it was quiet at the time, the IFP had not yet attacked, nobody was quite sure that there was peace at the township though.

MR MALAN: And did you not act as a bodyguard for Mr Teaspoon Mkhize?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: Yes I was a bodyguard at the time.

MR MALAN: Were you not given the arms, the weapon, for that purpose?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: The weapons that we used are weapons that we used, the one weapon that one used to guard Mr Mkhize at the time was an official weapon and this had to be left behind on knocking off but the one that I used in committing the offence was not that gun, instead it was another gun that I had to keep with me to look after myself with.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Jager, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mngomezulu?

UNKNOWN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mngomezulu ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: May I just one question?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to re-examine?

MS MOODLEY: Yes.  The weapon that was issued to you by the commander, that was an arm owned by the organisation?  For clarity would you like to explain that?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: I think that the firearms belonged to the organisation because nobody had a gun manufacturing firm and the commander is the one who knew how he got hold of these firearms, we respected him, he was in charge of us in the organisation.  I therefore did not ask him where he obtained the firearm as well as the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: When - you've given testimony that Mr Msamango is now deceased?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he die?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: In 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that before Mr Phewa was killed, Mr Mpumalelo Christopher Phewa was killed or after he was killed?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: Mr Msamango was the one to die first.

CHAIRPERSON: During the conflict that you've alluded to between Amabuvo and the ANC, was it your understanding that Mr Msamango - let me start by saying, did Mr Msamango remain your commander even during the conflict between your organisation, the ANC and the SACP?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: Nobody called us to address us should I say, the situation was such that there was this tangible conflict that was going on between the two groups.  I therefore am not in the position to say that he was a commander or not but he never came to us to tell us that we had a new commander, such that other weapons still remained with him, weapons that were used to take care of the community right up to the time when he died.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever given an understanding that you could continue using this firearm for purposes of furthering the interests of your organisation in the conflict that you've alluded to between yourself and the SACP?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: Honestly, nobody told me to use this firearm except for him.  If I had a firearm and I would not have - if I say an enemy came and I had a firearm I find it funny not to use it because the person who issued it is not around to instruct you immediately so that their intention was to fight the ANC from within and therefore the firearm that was in my possession was used.  I decided to use it but nobody gave an instant instruction to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: From where did you obtain the ammunition that you used in the killing of Mr Phewa?

HAPPY MNGOMEZULU: I pointed out earlier on that the commander gave me the firearm as well as the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may.

MR MALAN: We in the meantime received an affidavit which I assume you got a copy of, Ms Moodley, from ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: This morning?