Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: Do you never whether there was a report 
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UNKNOWN: sent back on this incident, back to head office?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did anybody in your group involved in this 
operation, were they ever repudiated at any stage?

UNKNOWN: No, not one of us.

UNKNOWN: And that was the case, despite the fact 
that children had been killed?

UNKNOWN: That's correct, and that's why they sent us 
money.

UNKNOWN: Now about the issue of the children, I want 
to ask you one or two questions.  Did you know, you 
yourself, did you know beforehand that the Kahn family had 
children?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether any of the other people 
involved in the operation knew that the Kahn family had 
children?

UNKNOWN: At that stage I didn't know, but now I do know. 
 As a result of my conversation with Marthinus Ras, I now 
know that he knew.

UNKNOWN: That he knew that there were children?

UNKNOWN: Yes, and that is what he will testify.

UNKNOWN: Where you were present, were there any 
discussions about children ever?

UNKNOWN: No, except when we crossed the river back into 
the Republic when the house was blown up, it was said that 
there were children.

UNKNOWN: Captain, you were also asked about the 
possibility of reconnaissance operations beforehand to check 
out the scene there. Now in the circumstances reigning on 
that evening and the way in which the operation was carried 
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UNKNOWN: out, and the area, would it have been possible, could it 
have been done easily?

UNKNOWN: No, as I testified earlier, we were not to be 
seen in that area.  That's why we created the alibi, the 
Richards Bay alibi.  If we had tried to go there earlier 
that day and drive around there and we had been seen, that 
would have blown the whole operation.  That's why we stayed 
on the farm, we were not allowed to leave there.  We only 
left there that night to go to that place.

JUDGE WILSON: If one person, presumably a black person had 
wandered around outside the shop, can you seriously say that 
would have blown the whole operation? I am not talking about 
the whole mob of you driving in your cars, waving your 
silenced guns.  It was perfectly easy for you, from 
Vlakplaas, we have heard of all the askaris you have, to 
taken one and sent him quietly to just see who went in and 
out of the house.  Wouldn't it have?

UNKNOWN: That is so, Chairperson, but perhaps it was 
done and perhaps I was not aware of it by the local security 
branch sources. I don't know about that though.

JUDGE WILSON: So if it was done, they went in knowing there 
were children in that house and determined to kill them. Is 
that what you are saying?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether it was 
done, I can only testify about what I know, I can't testify 
on anybody's else's behalf.

JUDGE WILSON: If it was done, it means they went in knowing 
it?

UNKNOWN: It is possible, but I didn't know it.

UNKNOWN: What did you expect there, whom did you 
expect to find there?  Could you answer?
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UNKNOWN: Kahn and terrorists.

JUDGE WILSON: And Mrs Kahn?

UNKNOWN: Possibly, yes, I foresaw the possibility that 
she could be there.

JUDGE WILSON: You talk about the Kahn family.  When you 
talk about a family you would normally think of children as 
well, don't you?

UNKNOWN: That is so.  I didn't know that there were 
children.  But, I have already said, that if at Vlakplaas I 
was told that there could possibly be children involved, 
then I would have had a problem with it, but I would still 
have gone along with the operation.

UNKNOWN: Do you know how old the children could have 
been or are you not at all aware?

UNKNOWN: No, until today I don't know.

UNKNOWN: No further questions, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: You said a moment ago that no one in your 
group was ever repudiated, but you took steps, we have heard 
from time to time, to avoid or to frustrate police 
investigation into some of the killings, didn't you?

UNKNOWN: That is so.

HASSAN MALL: Very well, thank you. We move onto some other 
aspect of the matter now, Mr Du Plessis.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, the next matter we wish 
to deal with is page 104, the happening at Penge Mine.  Capt 
Mentz, please start on page 105, read that for us.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I would just like to say that, if 
I remember correctly, this happened before the Brian 
Ngqulunga case, but I can't remember specific dates.  
Ngqulunga was July 1990, I think.  If I remember correctly, 
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UNKNOWN: this happened before that, and in my application I didn't 
know who the victim was in this case.  The Attorney 
General's office, during our first session in Johannesburg, 
they asked and told me it was Johannes Maboti.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Du Plessis, I think this mine spelling is 
P-E-N-G-E, Penge Mine.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: Proceed.

UNKNOWN: Col Eugene de Kock, I cannot remember the date, 
but it was after two in the afternoon, Eugene de Kock, Col 
Eugene de Kock gave the instructions to take him to 
Vereeniging in his vehicle, it was a Toyota Cressida.  At 
that stage I didn't know exactly what it was all about.  We 
went to a police station near Vereeniging.  As far as I can 
remember, it was the De Deur police station.  
	When we arrived there we met Warrant Officer Duiwel 
Brits.  He was there in a brown Land Cruiser.  Sgt Louw van 
Niekerk, Sgt Leon Floris.  We were outside the police 
station and then another security branch policeman - I know 
he is a security branch in Vereeniging, but I don't know 
him.  He came walking out of the police station with a Black 
askari.  It was the first time that I had seen that 
particular askari. 	Col De Kock told him to come with and 
the security policeman from Vereeniging was then no longer 
with us.  The askari got into the vehicle by himself, into 
Brits' vehicle, he was not forced to get into the vehicle.  
	Col De Kock and I followed the Land Cruiser.  I asked 
De Kock where we were going and he said we were going to 
Penge Mine to find out what the askari had to say. We then 
went from Vereeniging on the freeway as far as Pretoria and 
then on the Witbank freeway.  On the other side of Boschkop 
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