Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

GINOTRY DANSTER: He told us that he did not want another Biko case, we must not assault this person.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And apart from your fixation with the Biko case, he did tell you not to assault him, that's the point.  You just agreed to that.

GINOTRY DANSTER: He told us not to injure him, but he had given us instructions to torture him.

MR VISSER: You see that's exactly the point, that's what I don't understand.  Here is a man who says to you, don't assault this person and then he tells you how to extract information out of a terrorist by using these gruesome methods which you have described here to us, now how does that tally?

UNKNOWN: The latter method would it leave marks?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr Chairman there were a lot of people here in South Africa who were being investigated by the police.  I can just mention three names.  They can come here and tell you how we got information from them.  I can just mention three names so that they can come forward to tell you how the information was extracted from them.

CHAIRPERSON: No I don't think that we want to know that.  I don't think Mr Visser wants to know the names of the people.  And Mr Visser what is the purpose of your question, is the word "kick and beat and bang against" are you saying that those words ...(indistinct) verba were used by Mr du Plessis or did he merely say don't assault?  You know if that is the distinction which you are drawing in your mind then perhaps it's a matter of words.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman except ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think the instructions were, whatever you do don't leave any marks on this man's body.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, indeed Mr Chairman and there may be a thin line but I have difficulty and I will argue this at the end of the day with a witness who is a policeman who comes to you and tells you that there are methods of torture being used but they are not assaults, but I will leave that for later.
	Can I come to a visit by, what did you call them, terrorist unit from Pretoria, is that what you called them?  Yes a terrorist squad coming from Pretoria.  You remember you gave evidence about that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was anti-terrorism.

MR VISSER: Pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Anti-terrorist.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now my learned friend Mr Booyens has traversed this and I am not going to do it again.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: But - (laughter) - but I want to put this, something on a different angle to you, you see the point here that Mr Booyens was trying to put to you is that you knew Mr van Rensburg very well at that time, didn't you?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes I knew him.

MR VISSER: And if you read, I am putting it to you, page 58, my learned friend stopped just before the second last sentence.  Now I want to read the last sentence to you.  This is after, according to you
"Mr Dirk Coetzee spoke in the room to somebody".
we'll come to that in a moment.  You say -
"They, the strangers, then left".
who are you referring to there?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I am referring to the second in command and Dirk Coetzee.  Dirk Coetzee was a stranger to me, I did not know him.

MR VISSER: And who is the second in command that you are talking about?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr van Rensburg.

MR VISSER: Okay.  I am asking you again, you say "they, the strangers, then left" who are you referring to now?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It's Mr Coetzee and Mr van Rensburg, I was referring to them.

MR VISSER: Alright.   You then stated that Mr Kondile was handcuffed to a bed at that time and you said, on a question of Mr de Jager that he wasn't asked, or nobody was asked whether everything was alright, I understand that.  What I want to ask you is, at the time you say it was just after a severe round of torture, do you remember that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We tortured him before these men arrived.

MR VISSER: Yes.  A very simple question, there were no marks on him, there was no sign of any torture on Mr Kondile at the time when Mr Coetzee was there, or was there?

GINOTRY DANSTER: There were no marks.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now please will you decide.  When Mr Coetzee came into the room where Mr Kondile was, please decide now, to how many people did Coetzee speak in the room, was it two or three, in either case who were they?

GINOTRY DANSTER: There were three officers there, no there were two officers there.  It was Mr van Rensburg and Mr du Plessis.

MR VISSER: The one stranger.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I knew those two.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Mr Raath has denied in his evidence here before this Committee what you have suggested at page 49 that he came and bragged about having disposed of Mr Kondile, you heard him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes I heard him.

MR VISSER: And may I assume that you differ from him in that evidence?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Now as a policeman of three years standing in 1981 is it fair to assume that you would know who the Commissioner of the South African Police was?

GINOTRY DANSTER: At that time it was Mike Geldenhuys.

MR VISSER: Mike Geldenhuys.  So when you said at page 49 of your affidavit,
"I would like to add that Johan Coetzee, Commissioner of Police, came down to Jeffrey's Bay...."
what did you mean by that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He became a Commissioner after that, but at the time he was the boss of the Security Police.

MR VISSER: Yes, and that is of course evidence which you heard here in this case, in this application, isn't that so?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Then he was the boss of the security police and the Commissioner was Mike Geldenhuys.

MR VISSER: So are you now saying that what is written here is wrong, General Johan Coetzee was not the Commissioner of Police, in 1981?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He was the boss of the Security police.

MR VISSER: Mr Danster we would really go much quicker if you would just answer the question.  Are you now saying that General Johan Coetzee was not the Commissioner of the South African Police in 1981?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I remember he was a general, he was the chief of the Security department.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the statement it was written at the time when he was Commissioner and the man who wrote it wrote it this way, isn't it a possibility?

MR VISSER: With great respect just read on, just read on.   Well you see I want to put it to you, that that just isn't true, the horse won't run and I will tell you why not.  Because  a little later on you say General Coetzee was wearing a brown lumber jacket and later du Plessis said that "even the Commissioner is taking an interest in the matter".  So what you are saying now can't be correct.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Maybe it's a misinterpretation but General Johan Coetzee was the chief of the security police at that time.

MR VISSER: Yes, I want to put it to you that there was no such visit by General Johan Coetzee as the one that you have given evidence to.

GINOTRY DANSTER: You are saying that.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I am also putting it to you that there was no such visit of Dirk Coetzee as the one that you are referring to.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Dirk Coetzee did visit.

MR VISSER: And may I then ask you this.  You know the police cells at Jeffrey's Bay, and perhaps you could be of assistance to the Committee, how many cells are there at Jeffrey's Bay police station?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I won't be able to tell you how many cells are there.

MR VISSER: Alright, can we work on approximately six?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That depends on you, but I cannot be able to tell you how many.

MR VISSER: Are there single cells or can't you tell that either?

GINOTRY DANSTER: You mean where there's only one prisoner kept ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: No no, no no ...(intervention)

GINOTRY DANSTER: Because you can keep a prisoner in one cell, one prisoner in one cell.