Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR NTSEBEZA: Can you state your full names please for the record, your full names?

ANTON PRETORIUS: (sworn states)

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, you may be seated. I assume you are represented by Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: That is correct Madame Chair.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you just place that on record and proceed please?

MR KEMP: Madame Chairperson, I act on behalf of Mr Pretorius and also the next two witnesses. The procedure will be the same as with the previous witnesses whom I represent. I will ask Mr Pretorius to identify the affidavit which is in his possession and then just to read it into the record please.
 Mnr. Pretorius, sal jy asseblief, die verklaring wat voor u is, is dit 'n verklaring wat deur u op gestel is?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Dis korrek Mnr. die Voorsitter.

MR KEMP: Sal jy asseblief die verklaring in die rekord in lees?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I the undersigned, Anton Pretorius declare hereby under oath as follows: I'm a lieutenant colonel and former member of the South African Police. The contents of this statement fall within my personal knowledge, unless otherwise mentioned, and are to the best of my knowledge true and correct.
I started working on 2 December '76 at the South African Police and spent from 7 September '81 to 12 May '91 at the Security Branch, Soweto. My rank was that of sergeant when I started at Soweto and when I was transferred from there I had the rank of captain. After my transfer to the Security Branch, Soweto I worked for the first time with the Tracing Unit.
 After a few months we started a new unit which developed to the present information gathering component, also known as the Intelligence Unit. I was advised that it's not necessary to give the whole of my career in this statement. I therefore deal with the matters mentioned in my subpoena. 
 The interrogation and subsequent death of Sizwe Sithole - I have no knowledge of the interrogation or subsequent death of Sizwe Sithole. 
 The use and handling of informers or sources associated with the Mandela Football Club and Mrs Winnie Mandela - During the time that I was in the service of Security Branch Soweto, I was not involved with any tasking which had direct relevance to Mrs Mandela or the football club. Because of the fact that I was part of the information gathering component, the handling of informers was part of my daily life. Obviously, naturally in the run of my work of gathering information, information came from a large area and from many sources, and from time to time I received information with regard to Mrs Mandela or her activities. I'm not personally aware of any informers which dealt specifically, were associated specifically with Mrs Mandela or the Mandela United Football Club, with the exception of one person who came to my attention, after he had told the Security Branch that there were two MK members in his house. This informer was a person close to Mrs Mandela and also associated with the football club.
 The abduction, assault and murder of Stompie Sepei in 1988, I have personally no knowledge of the abduction, assault or murder of Stompie. I was involved with the planning of the raid on Mrs Mandela's house to get information with regard to the abduction, assault and murder of Stompie Sepei. I am an explosives expert and Intelligence Unit commander and was in that capacity requested to be present at this operation when the raid was performed. But I had no further involvement with this matter. 
 The relationship between the Security Branch, Murder and Robbery, Stratcom Divisions, other units of the South African Police with regard to Mrs Mandela and the football club. I'm aware that there was a Stratcom Unit at the Security Branch in Pretoria and also at the Security Branch Witwatersrand, but to the best of my knowledge there was at no stage a Stratcom Unit at the Security Branch, Soweto. In general, however, I can say that the relationship between the Security Branch, Murder and Robbery and other units of the South African Police co-operation was very good. Co-operation also took place continually on information and also with regard to Mrs Mandela and the United Football Club. We routinely exchanged information. 
 The use of intelligence material and the relationships with Intelligence agencies with regard to matters relating to Mrs Mandela and the football club. I have no knowledge of any such material and am not aware of any relationship directed to or at Mrs Mandela or the Mandela United Football Club. 
 The interrogation and death of Temba Johannes Mabota, I have no knowledge of this matter. Information with regard to observations, including telephone tapping, bugging, etc., in connection with matters relating to Mrs Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club. I know that tapping of Mrs Mandela's phone conversations did take place. 
 Transcriptions of such conversations were given to us on a daily basis made available to us, to the Intelligence Unit that is. And I had insight into such transcriptions. I'm not aware that at any stage bugs were used and as far as I know there was also at no stage permanent observation, other than tapping, bugging of Mrs Mandela's United Football Club - Mandela or the football club.  The Security Branch did not have an observation unit.
 The killing of Sergeant Pretorius and the two MK members, Maluleke and Nbonenge in '88, I was not part of the planning of this operation during which Fanie Pretorius was killed but was requested to go to the scene later. I was on the scene then and saw that Sergeant Pretorius and two other people had been killed. Except for that I have no knowledge of the killing of Sergeant Pretorius or the two MK members, Maluleke and Mnbonenge.

YASMINE SOOKA: You, I presume you are not going to lead your client further?

MR KEMP: I don't intend to lead any further with evidence. The witness will reply to all cross-examination. Thank you Mrs Chairperson.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Madame Chair.
 Mr Pretorius, you have made an application for amnesty, have you not?

ANTON PRETORIUS: An application for?

MR VALLY: Amnesty.

ANTON PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR VALLY: If you so choose there are headphones and you can get it translated into Afrikaans but that's your choice.

ANTON PRETORIUS: No, I only have a problem because you are talking away from me and therefore I can't hear you properly.

YASMINE SOOKA: Then if you choose to listen in English it will be louder.

MR VALLY: Do you confirm you have made an application for amnesty?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That is correct.

MR VALLY: You are represented by the same firm of attorneys in your amnesty application as you are represented here?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That is right.

MR VALLY: I want you to explain a contradiction to me please. In paragraph seven of your affidavit which you just read out to us now, the first sentence
"During the time when I was at the Safety Branch in Soweto, I wasn't involved in any task that had a direct relation with Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela or the Mandela United Football Club."

MR VALLY: Is that correct?  Well, on page - well ...[intervention]

MR KEMP: Madam Chairperson, I do not know whether Mr Vally intends to go into the whole question of Mr Pretorius' amnesty application at this stage. I do believe that it's not the proper forum to do so, and that that might prejudice his application in an amnesty application. As with the previous witnesses in this hearing yesterday and today, they were allowed not to give any evidence in regard to their amnesty applications. And I would ask that the same indulgence be granted to this witness.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Vally?