Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: (sworn states)

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Deetlefs you are an applicant in this specific application which has been submitted to the Honourable Committee with regard to the 2nd incident which took place on the 12th June 1988 outside Piet Retief, is that correct?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And in that incident four persons were killed?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Deetlefs, during that period from June 1988 you were stationed at Ermelo?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you were connected to the Security Branch in Ermelo?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And Piet Retief would have fallen indirectly below your command?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And the Commander of Piet Retief was Pienaar?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: What was your rank at that stage?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: At that stage I was a major in the South African Police.

MR PRINSLOO: And you were directly responsible for the office in Middelburg which was the Regional Office of the Eastern Transvaal?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I reported to them.

MR PRINSLOO: And Piet Retief would also have resided under Middelburg?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Evidence has been given that an incident took place on the 8th June 1988.  Did you hear that evidence?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I did.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you in any way directly involved in that incident?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Not directly, but I do know about it.

MR PRINSLOO: The knowledge that you had, what was it?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: On the day before the incident I was contacted by W/O Pienaar, upon which he informed me that they expected an infiltration of armed MK members from Swaziland.  I had responsibilities in Pretoria and I could not travel to the place and he told me that he had enough people who would be able to handle the matter.  I was satisfied with that and after the incident, I cannot recall whether it was that same night or the following morning, he contacted me and informed me that the persons had come through, that there had been a shooting incident and that four people had been killed.

MR PRINSLOO: Were any reports submitted by the Piet Retief office to Head Office?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you aware that Mr Pienaar at that stage was investigating the death of the persons with regard to a post mortem inquest?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I was.

MR PRINSLOO: Did it come to the knowledge of the office in Middelburg who was in control of the Eastern Transvaal?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, they knew about it.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there any objection from that side?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No.

MR PRINSLOO: To return to the 12th of June and the events of that day, you were called or informed that an action was being considered in the Piet Retief area on the 12th?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, on the 12th of June I was contacted by W/O Pienaar with this information.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you then go to his offices in Piet Retief?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I then went to Piet Retief.

MR PRINSLOO: And was that where you met your co-applicant, Mr de Kock?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you informed regarding the information that they had which would precede the insurgency?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you satisfied with the information which was given to you that the persons who were going to enter the country were members of a specific party, or not?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I was satisfied with the information.

MR PRINSLOO: That which persons would come in?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Trained ANC members, in other words Umkhonto weSizwe members.

MR PRINSLOO: And just on this point, at that stage you were involved with contacts and investigations in Swaziland regarding insurgents into the Republic who were members of the ANC, trained MK members.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you familiar with their actions, their modus operandi?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, as far as the information was concerned, I was familiar with it.

MR PRINSLOO: Before that period were you familiar with various incidents of terrorism which took place specifically in the then Eastern Transvaal region?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Acts which were committed by members of the ANC or MK?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: After the discussions with Col de Kock and Mr Pienaar, did you have any other discussion with Mr Manzini, a member of the Detective Branch at Piet Retief?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I held joint discussions with him as well.

MR PRINSLOO: Was Mr Manzini involved in any aspect of exactly what you were going to do?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No, he was not informed fully.

MR PRINSLOO: As far as you were involved in any discussion with him, to what extent was he informed?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: He was informed that the persons who wanted to enter the country according to all available information, were going to be armed and that this would present a situation of danger for him, that is why I wanted to know from him whether he was prepared to continue with it, because this was completely on a voluntary basis.  I wanted to ensure that he knew exactly what his task was, so that everything would go according to plan.

MR PRINSLOO: And according to you, was he a reliable person in terms of his work performance?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I was not that familiar with Manzini, but Pienaar assured me that he was reliable and I believed him as such.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon Mr Prinsloo.  Mr Deetlefs were you aware that the first incident or insurgency which took place on the 8th involved people who were not armed?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No.

MR MALAN: This was never reported to you?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Deetlefs did you go to the place where the trap was set, if I might put it that way?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, at the stage when all of us moved out, but not before the time.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you aware, or did you have direct knowledge of persons who went ahead to the Swaziland border?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: When I arrived at Piet Retief I was informed by Col de Kock and Mr Pienaar that people had gone ahead to Swaziland.  That they were already on their way there or that they had been there already.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage Col de Kock was your senior?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you go to the scene armed?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I did.  I had an R1 gun on me.

MR PRINSLOO: And were you fully informed regarding how the action there would function at the scene?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: You were under the command of Col de Kock?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And while you were there at the scene did any vehicle approach from Swaziland or from the border of Swaziland?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Is this on the road which is known as the Houtkop Road?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And while you were waiting there what happened, can you tell the Committee?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: When the vehicle approached, a distance from us, it's lights dimmed.  That would simply have been the signal for us to confirm that this was indeed the correct vehicle.  When it approached our point, it switched on its left indicator light and drew off the road to the left side and Manzini jumped out of the right front door and ran around the front of the vehicle.  At that stage he stopped when he was past the point where we had told him to stop.
In other words the point where we were in position and we had to run closer to the vehicle.

MR MALAN: Continue.