Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

MRS NINELA: Where were they, and how could I get to them?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that question is not really relevant at this stage.

MRS NINELA: Where were the police?  Where could I get them and  how could I get to them?

CHAIRPERSON: At least she tried to render medical assistance to the best of her ability.

MR RORICH: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I'll clarify that later.  So in your evidence you said that this man was eventually taken to the taxi and he went to hospital,  Is that correct?

MRS NINELA: No, he wasn't taken to the taxi.  The nephew, our nephew took him as far as the bus stop which was near his home, so he went to his house, because he could walk.

MR RORICH: Fair enough, but this man eventually did land in hospital.  Correct?

MRS NINELA: Yes.

MR RORICH: Fine.  The Security Police have stated that they went to the hospital.  That this same man in hospital told they about Blessing, is that correct?

MRS NINELA: I wasn't there.

MR RORICH: Well that's what the evidence says, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: How can she say it is correct?

MR RORICH: I withdraw that question, Mr Chairman.  This same in hospital gives information to the police in respect of Belssing.  Two policemen come to your residence and they ask you in respect of Blessing, was he there?

MRS NINELA: Two policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: She wouldn't know that.  There were two people.

MR RORICH: Well, according to her evidence yesterday, he son identified them as two investigators, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, as far as she's concerned ...(intervention)

MRS NINELA: How can you say a man who is not under uniform, how can you tell that man is an investigator or a detective?

MR LAX: Mr Rorich, sorry, it's your client's own case.  Those people were pretending to be MK people, not policemen, that's your client's case, so they certainly weren't saying they were policemen.  All that the report that her son allegedly made, via some other person, which was reported to her was that they were referred to as investigators or "abaseshi", which is a generalised term for a detective or someone of that stature.

MR RORICH: Yes, Mr Chair, that's what I was trying to extract.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RORICH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Have you any questions to ask of her?  Ms Gabriel you have already indicated you have no re-examination?

MS GABRIEL: I confirm that, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you, you are excused from further attendance.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Gabriel?

MS GABRIEL: Mr Chair, the next witness we call is Sebelo Ngobese and his statement is in bundle 2 beginning on page 63.

SEBELO NGOBESE: (sworn states)

MS GABRIEL: Mr Sebelo, I'm going to ask you a few questions and I'm going to confine it purely to information that was delivered at the hearing yesterday and that was to a period of time when Mr Ninela was in detention.  Mr du Preez seemed to indicate that this was because of his union activities way back in 1987 and I suggested to Mr du Preez that the letters also pointed to a house in Inanda at which weapons were found.  Mr du Preez obviously claimed that he could not remember any of this until he had read those documents and he couldn't remember any further details of that.  Now, essentially what I need to know from you is are you familiar with that period of time and the circumstances under which Blessing was detained?  Are you able to offer the Committee any further information on this?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes.

MS GABRIEL: Perhaps you could begin then by explaining how it is that you knew Blessing Ninela.

MR VISSER: Sorry Mr Chairman, before he proceeds I hope I'm not interrupting unnecessarily but has this witness been sworn?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

SEBELO NGOBESE: I first met Blessing Ninela towards the end of 1984 or at the beginning of 1985.  We were organisers of KwaZulu Natal in Pinetown.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that, we were organisers for what?

SEBELO NGOBESE: South African Workers Union.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give the interpreter time to interpret everything that you say please.

SEBELO NGOBESE: Kevin approached me to identify people whom we were going to work with them under the propaganda unit of the ANC.  I identified Sefiso and I was staying with Sefiso at Chesterville.  We had a problem and Sefiso was very close to Blessing Ninela and because of the problem he was facing at Chesterville, he left and stayed with Blessing at kwaMakutha in South Coast and later there was a time when there was conflict between the Mpondo and the Zulus.  They left that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Which area?

SEBELO NGOBESE: kwaMakuto.  It was at kwaMakutho and Zibogodweni, this was the area where there was conflict between Amampondo and Amazulu.  Sefiso had left Chesterville because of the A team problem.

MS GABRIEL: Maybe you could assist us about talking to us where he went to after that.

SEBELO NGOBESE: Sefiso came back to Chesterville and he told me that Blessing Ninela was now staying at Inanda.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Ms Gabriel you must put your questions, otherwise you are going to find that you will have a rambling answer.  Shouldn't it be more purposeful?

MS GABRIEL: Mr Ngobese, when did you first meet Blessing Ninela?

CHAIRPERSON: He said 1984 or 1985.

MS GABRIEL: Right.  Where did you meet him?

SEBELO NGOBESE: In Pinetown.

MS GABRIEL: When was the next time that you met him?

SEBELO NGOBESE: We used to meet each other at Pinetown in the offices of SAWU because Blessing was not staying at Inanda.

MS GABRIEL: Mr Ngobese you've told us that Sefiso made contact with Blessing and that there was a house in Inanda. Can you tell us about whether you met Blessing at this house in Inanda?  Can you talk to us about that period of time?

SEBELO NGOBESE: I don't remember meeting Blessing at Inanda, but where Kevin, myself and Sefiso were working at Inanda, there was a house and we were printing leaflets and propaganda for the ANC.

MS GABRIEL: Whose house was this?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Sefiso had told me it was Blessing's house.  He requested him to look after the house.

MS GABRIEL: Now these activities that you refer to, a printing press and photostat machine, what activities would this, for which organisation were you working at the time?

SEBELO NGOBESE: We were doing it for the ANC, it was the ANC propaganda and we used to distribute those leaflets in Durban and Pietermaritzburg surroundings.

MS GABRIEL: So if I understand your evidence correctly what you had was an ANC cell operating from this house at which Blessing supposedly lived?

SEBELO NGOBESE: Yes, that's correct.

MS GABRIEL: Now can you assist us by telling us if Blessing was a part of these activities?  Did he work with you?

SEBELO NGOBESE: No, Blessing was not a member of our cell and he was never involved in any of these activities.

MS GABRIEL: Do you have any idea, Blessing subsequently detained in 1987, do you have any idea why he was detained?