Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  This is an amnesty application hearing and for the record, my name is Judge Pillay.  I am going to ask my two colleagues to announce their names for the purposes of the record.

MS BOSMAN: Advocate Francis Bosman of the Amnesty Committee.

MR SANDI: My name is Sikilelo Sandi from the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: For the same reasons, will those representatives who are present and have an interest in this application please announce themselves.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee.  My name is Black, Advocate Black.  I'm a member of the Johannesburg Bar.  I am instructed by the firm of attorneys Nthuli, Nobel and Spoor.  I'm not quite certain whether the numbering of the applicants is going to remain the same.  So, I better mention the names of the applicants for whom I appear.  I appear for ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, we will take the numbers as they appear on the application.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairperson, it's Gushu, number one, applicant number two, Mr Khaba and applicant number three, Mbokane and there has been additional applicant who has been added, who doesn't appear on the original list.  That's Mr Voice Sambo.  We've been furnished with a separate bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you appearing from Mr Sambo also?

MR BLACK: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood, that's a separate application.

MR BLACK: That's so, Mr Chairman.  The circumstances surrounding his application are very different from the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Then obviously he doesn't form part of this application.  It's a completely different application.  All I want to know is who you're representing in this application.

MR BLACK: I was given to understand that Mr Sambo would be heard at this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: His application will be heard at this sitting, not at this particular hearing.  So, you're representing numbers one, two and three and?

MR BLACK: Those are the only applicants who I represent.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: As it pleases the Committee.  I appear for applicants number four to thirteen.  Perhaps I should just introduce myself.  My name is Advocate Patel and I'm instructed by attorneys Mthembu and Mohamed.  As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, my name is Peter Kemp.  I'm a member of the Pretoria Bar.  I'm instructed in this matter by the Pretoria firm of attorneys Wagener and Muller on behalf of three concerned people, namely Mr von Zweel.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat please.

MR KEMP: Mr von Zweel.  V-O-N  Z-W-E-E-L.

CHAIRPERSON: You're going too quick.  Can you repeat that please?

MR KEMP: Mr von Zweel.  That is V-O-N and then Z-W-E-E-L.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR KEMP: And then Mr Botha and Mr Marais.  And then instructed by a Pretoria firm Strydom and Britz.  I also represent Chief Superintendent Johan Botha and I'm assisted in this, on my right-hand, by attorney Mr Kobus Miller and on my left-hand by Mr Attorney Werner Nolte.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So, you're representing four interested parties?

MR KEMP: Four interested parties, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mrs van der Walt?

MEV VAN DER WALT: I am Advocate van der Walt.  I represent Mr Q Mkhwanazi.  He is an implicated person.  Q Mkhwanazi.  That is only one person and I'm also under instructions of the State Prosecutor from Durban.

MR PRINSLOO: I'm Harry Prinsloo.  I am appearing under the instructions of the State Prosecutor for Mr F J Pienaar.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the same State Prosecutor?  Is that the same State Prosecutor who has given instructions to Mrs van der Walt?  What is the name of the person?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, my name is Johan Hattingh from the Pretoria Bar.  I've been instructed by attorneys J H van der Merwe of Pretoria and I'm assisted in this matter by Mr Chris van der Hage on my left hand.  I will represent seven of the victims and I could name them.  Jwi Zwane, Chris Ngwenya, Lindiwe Nkosi, Thembisile Eldah Nkambule, Advice Gwala, Obed Friday Nhlabathi, Bongani Malinga.  Six of the names that I've mentioned are deceased people and I received my instructions from the next of kin, the families of the deceased.  Only Thembisile Eldah Nkambule is still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, during the course of this hearing it becomes imperative for us, whatever we find in respect of amnesty, if we find that we need to declare certain people victims for obvious reasons, in particular where there are deaths or deceased, that the relationship between the deceased and the victim as it were, we need to know that.  Would you establish that and inform us during the course of ... (intervention)

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I've already taken that up with my instructing clients and will give the necessary details to this Committee.

MR SANDI: Just for the record.  Mr Hattingh, in a nutshell, your clients are opposing the applications?

MR HATTINGH: They are opposing the applications.  That's correct.

MR SANDI: Thank you.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, with the leave of the Committee, my learned friend, Mr Patel and I, have come to an agreement as to the presentation of the evidence.  We feel, given the nature of the applications and the incidents referred to, that a background, albeit on a brief basis, be presented to the Committee and for that purpose the first witness who will be called will be called by Mr Patel who will sketch the situation which prevailed in Ermelo and the Mpumalanga area.  I will then, with the leave of the Committee, call the current incumbent Mayor of Piet Retief, Mr Gamede, who is not an applicant, to provide the Committee with the background to what prevailed in Piet Retief.  We are acutely aware, both Mr Patel, myself and the leader of evidence of the TRC on a previous occasion had got together to try and limit the time and the extent of the evidence which is going to be presented relating to the background situation.  We had a brief meeting, well not a brief, we had a meeting this morning from half past eight with the other representatives.  Without speaking on their behalf, there appears to be some form of general consensus as to the political tensions and the background evidence which is going to be presented.  So, I'm aware that we don't certainly wish to waste the Committee's time of having lengthy evidence, but we feel that some evidence relating to background will be presented.  So, with the leave of the Committee and the permission of yourself, Mr Chairman, Mr Patel will call his first witness who, I understand, is one of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, I'm terribly sorry.  I omitted to allow you to get on in the act and announce your presence for the purposes of the record.  Will you do so now?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir.  I'm Zuko Mapoma, the evidence leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any objections to the suggestion as explained by Mr Black?  None.  Yes, Mr Patel.