Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

DJ MKHIZE: No Mr Ngubane, that is not so.  Because I have explained before this Commission that the shooting of people who - I'll say the shooting of a mob of people would have a motive behind.  There was no instance where we just shot at people without a motive.
	I also referred to the bail at Mtunzini where Ntunu testified, where the ANC had attacked at a rally, where Gideon Zulu crawled on his stomach.  We decided to use the same strategy that was being used by the ANC by attacking at random because we realized that the ANC was similarly benefiting from this strategy.  And people would realize that we were not protected if we did not use the same strategy as the ANC did.
	And I also indicated that it is known in politics that people would follow the kind of organisation that offered them protection.  There is no situation such as random shooting for no motive, no political motive for the shooting.
	Therefore I disagree that I was actually testing.

MR NGUBANE: And you realize that when you attacked these areas which you called ANC areas, even toddlers of two years, one year could be killed who knew nothing about politics.

DJ MKHIZE: It was not easy Mr Ngubane for a person to take a baby to a rally in a bus.

MR NGUBANE: No, I'm not talking about the bus.  I'm talking about houses where people reside.

DJ MKHIZE: According to my knowledge I have never testified anywhere that we hit houses.  In other words families in a household, wiping them all out.  I have never testified to that effect.

MR NGUBANE: I'll remind you of one incident where you attacked flats where Matilda was killed.  Those were definitely residential areas.  Do you agree?

DJ MKHIZE: No Mr Ngubane, that is not the case.  Let me explain it as follows
	Matilda was not attacked at her house.  She was not attacked at her house.  She was hit by a bullet that went in through a window.  It was just a stray bullet.  It hit her through the window while she was inside the house, and later it was not indicated that a door was broken down and people walked in.  She was hit by a bullet; maybe she might have been peeping through a window, but yes the bullet hit her without any intention.  It was a stray bullet so to speak.

MR NGUBANE: I quote from your affidavit regarding this incident only.  It's para 66 at pg 36.  I'll start at line 6.  I'll come back to the incident as a whole, but for the purposes of clarifying to you what I mean, I'll read this
"I used the ZP 777 to convey my men to J1 section.  I dropped them off at a certain point near the flats which were occupied by the suspected ANC attackers, and I drove off patrolling this area, giving my men cover.  They attacked the flats and found nobody inside.  They conducted further attacks in this area because people who live in this portion of J1 section are ANC supporters and they refused to supply information in respect of the attack on the policemen.  A certain female by the name of Matilda was killed and others were injured during this operation."
Do you agree with me that clearly you were attacking residential areas where toddlers who had nothing to do with politics could be killed?

DJ MKHIZE: No, that is not true.  The paragraph that you've just read, I can explain it as follows
	There was a flat at J1, a flat that was known to harbour or to be an area of flats where ANC men resided.  And also that is where Ndanda used to train his boys.  And that is at the same vicinity where Constable Nxanga was shot and killed.  And therefore our main target on that day after Nxanga's death were the flats which we had already information about the flats housing the ANC followers who were engaged in the activities to which I earlier on referred.
	That is where the focus is on this paragraph.

MR NGUBANE: Now are you saying that it was not part of your policy to attack residential areas where ANC people resided?  Indiscriminately, let me just qualify it.  Indiscriminately.  It was not your policy if I - excuse me for interrupting you.

DJ MKHIZE: I would be contradicting myself if I were to say that.  I am the one who said that there were certain politics that we adopted for certain reasons.  And we would change from time to time, and if something happened at some point we would be forced to drop a strategy and follow another one.  But I can indicate that if a strategy had been adopted it automatically becomes policy.
	And therefore I am saying here that if you are saying it was not Inkatha's policy I would not say that is correct, because ourselves as Inkatha members, after having adopted a strategy it would therefore become a policy.  The main aim here is that there is an objective, the movement objective and the strategy.

MR NGUBANE: I want to make it clear to you Mr Mkhize that it's not my intention to create the impression to you that you were not acting under the orders of your organisation.  What I am saying to you is that in spite of the fact that I concede that you were given orders, you exceeded the orders of a political party and you committed the acts which could not be classified as political acts.

DJ MKHIZE: I would not agree with that, because I have explained reasons for all the things that I did.  And there is nowhere I have exceeded or crossed boundaries of my political movement.  There was a reason that would lead to me and the hit squad having to do that.  And therefore I don't think we were doing our own thing.  I do not therefore agree with you when you say that.
	Something could happen such as would happen when there is a war.  Stray bullets fly around, for example there's a bullet that almost hit Israil Fangwane.  He also believed that he was hit, but the bullet actually hit his jeans.  That kind of a bullet for example, let us say it strayed and hit a baby during the struggle over the gun when we were trying to shoot the chief; when such a thing happens it is not necessarily the aim of the hit squad to hit the baby, but the circumstances under which we find ourselves at the time would be the ones that persuade us or pressure us to hit the baby.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, exactly.  You knew at that time that by attacking randomly in this fashion, you foresaw that there was a possibility that apolitical people, children could be killed and you reconciled yourselves with that possibility.

DJ MKHIZE: Are you saying people hurt and injured under such circumstances?  That would be bad, it is unacceptable.  It is totally unacceptable.
	But one would insist upon training among the people with whom one is working.  The question of accuracy.  Persons or people should know how to handle guns, and that is closely linked to the kind of training you give them, so that they should be careful not to do that which is not required of them.
	But once such a thing has happened it is still unacceptable because it affects the objective of the movement.  It turns it around so that that would be referred to as negligence.  That is what I can say.  I do not go along with that as well.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I see it's approaching... [intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Should be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment Mr Ngubane, I see it's just on one o'clock.  We'll now take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR MKHIZE (suo)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Ngubane, you may continue.

MR WILLS: Sir, Mr Chairperson, if I could just convey a request.  The applicant presently giving evidence has indicated to me that he's battling a bit - I don't know if it's a result of the interpretation of the equipment.  What he would like to do is have the questions put to him in English without being interpreted and then he will answer in  Zulu if that is in order.

CHAIRPERSON: Do the interpreters hear that?  Is that okay?  Yes, thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Ngubane, you may...