Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

CHAIRPERSON: What he - he is putting a very broad question to you and he is saying that it is clear that you do not know the exact dates when you committed the offence, the various offences, including the Sebokeng shooting, and he relies on that from what appears in the application for amnesty which described the date of the Sebokeng incident as 1993 and what appears in the statement of the police officer that he's been reading, do you agree with that or don't you agree with that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, the incident happened in 1992.  I do not know whether he wants me to admit to 1993 or not.

CHAIRPERSON: He is not suggesting that this thing occurred in 1993, he's merely putting to you that you're not too sure of the date.  That's all that he's putting to you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It happened in 1992, I'm sure of that.

MR LOWIES: Now the next aspect which I'm putting to you pertaining to the above is the following and that is, you were not even sure where the offences were committed.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is not true.  These people tortured me and ordered me to go point out the spots and I did that.

MR LOWIES: I think you will agree with one thing though, when you had this, or when Ferreira had this interview with you, you did not tell him about the Boipatong massacre, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I stated before that I do not know this Ferreira.  I do not know how come you ask me that question because I did say I was never questioned on Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: And therefore you never tendered anything regarding Boipatong, out of your own free will either, or even under torture.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The people who handled my case did not refer to Boipatong, they only questioned me on Sebokeng.  I do not understand how the Boipatong issue comes into play, because as I've already stated, I applied for amnesty with regards to the Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: And my instructions are further, Mr Nosenga, that you are trying to implicate people in this hearing which had nothing to do with the Boipatong massacre.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not trying to implicate anyone.  I was involved in the Boipatong incident.  I don't know what you're trying to say.  You mentioned this even yesterday and I do not understand what you are getting at.

MR LOWIES: Do you know Sipho Lukhozi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know a certain Sipho.  I know a tall Sipho, I don't know whether he is the same Lukhozi.

MR LOWIES: This Sipho is also a tall guy and he was a friend of Victor Kheswa.  Are we talking about the same Sipho now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The one I'm referring to was there in Sun City and he's tall.

MR LOWIES: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I think it's the same one.

MR LOWIES: Just to put the record straight, he has been transferred to Zonderwater, but he used to be there.  Now that we know that you know this chap, were you, on your version, in a gang of which he was a member?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please explain that question, I do not quite understand it.

MR LOWIES: Well did you two belong to the same gang?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know him to be a member of the IFP and I was also one.  I knew him as a member of the IFP.

MR LOWIES: I understand that.  Were you in the same gang?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We were in one organisation, the IFP.

MR LOWIES: He never took part in any drive-by shooting with you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did explain yesterday that I was questioned on who was present when we launched that drive-by attack.  Where did you come about Sipho's name?

MR LOWIES: Sir, just answer the question please, the question is simple.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did state yesterday who was with me when I went on that attack.

CHAIRPERSON: You will answer the questions put to you.  If the question is unfair we will stop counsel from doing that.  You're simply being asked, did Sipho Lukhozi take part?  If he did, say yes and if he didn't, say no.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he did not take part.

MR LOWIES: Now the reason why this is relevant, I have instructions that although Sipho took part in drive-by shootings and was a friend of Kheswa, he was not an inhabitant of the KwaMadala Hostel.  Your comment?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Are you referring to Sipho?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that he did not reside at the hostel, but I used to see him.

MR LOWIES: When did you see him for the first time, before or after the Boipatong massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say whether I did see him or not during the Boipatong massacre.

MR LOWIES: Well I have instructions that - and I have to qualify what I've put to you earlier, that for a short period of time he stayed in KwaMadala, but when most of the acts, drive-by shootings were committed by Kheswa, on versions put to other people, he, Sipho, was not an inhabitant of the KwaMadala Hostel.  And I would like to put the following to you, and so were you not.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know where you get that from.  As I stated before, I arrived at the hostel in 1991.

MR LOWIES: Who allocated your room to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I stated before that the person I remember giving me a room was Prince Zulu, Gatchene(?), Damarra Chonco and Darkie Chonco.

MR LOWIES: And not Mthembu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not mention Mthembu.  I said the person who issued me with a room was Prince Zulu.

MR LOWIES: Are you sure that Mthembu had no role in this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I am saying that Mthembu did not issue me with a room, it was Prince Zulu, Damarra Chonco, Darkie Chonco and Gatchene.

MR LOWIES: Because so far the evidence is, and this is also my instructions, the person responsible for allocating rooms was definitely Mthembu and not Vanana Zulu.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  What I am saying is that Prince Zulu issued me with a room.

MR LOWIES: According to you, who was the leader of the IFP Youth Brigade?

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR LOWIES: In the Vaal, sorry.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I stated that it was Themba Khosa who was the Chairperson of the IFP Youth Brigade in the Vaal.

MR LOWIES: And who was the leader of the IFP Youth Brigade at KwaMadala, the most senior person in the Youth Brigade?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Buthelezi.

MR LOWIES: When did you meet Buthelezi for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Although I do not remember the date I think it was in 1991.

MR LOWIES: And that stage, what was his position?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know that he was an IFP Youth member.

MR LOWIES: Was he a leader, according to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was the leader of the IFP Youth Brigade.

MR LOWIES: Did you hear his evidence, were you here when he gave evidence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is so.

MR LOWIES: Wasn't that the first time that you saw him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was not seeing him for the first time.

MR LOWIES: What's his fist name?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know him as a Buthelezi.  Some people I know by their first names, some by their surnames.

MR LOWIES: So you know him from '91, but you only know him as Buthelezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I knew as that Buthelezi, because some of them they know even my surname.

MR LOWIES: Lastly on this aspect regarding your surname, how are you known?  Are you known as Andries?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They know me by the name of Matanzima.  My surname is Nosenga.

MR LOWIES: And when you put your names on a document, signature on a document, which names do you put on a document?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I use my surname Nosenga when I sign.

MR LOWIES: Yes, only Nosenga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I use Andries Nosenga Matanzima. - Andries being my English name and Matanzima is my African name.