Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I concede.  The case I'm making is not that one statement raises profound difficulties for the execution of my professional task but I must mention that at least - in terms of my professional understanding of my responsibilities, that single page must entail with me the responsibility to consult with client, not consult with her in a sitting of a nature like this to cross-reference the information - even if she only says to me: "That is correct".
 Now against that background I'm making this comment for now so that I do not have this difficulty - this was my complaint the first day and I was told: "You're going to get all the documents".  I don't know if down the line I'm going to find further documentation which make my task very difficult to execute but for the witness I do not have questions Chairperson.

DR RANDERA: Chairperson, I wonder if I could just make one comment about this - and I really do appreciate what is being said, we unfortunately only received the statements from the persons concerned ourselves.  If we had them available we would have obviously have tried to make sure that you had them.
 I'm not excusing the situation, I'm just saying that's part of the problem.  Not that we have only received it ourselves now but that the Commission has only received the statements today, so we'll do our very best.  The one from Doctor Motlana we received this morning - I hope you got it as well before lunch but the other two literally we only got today from the persons concerned.

MR SEMENYA: Deputy Chairperson, I'm just raising that a legal requirement in terms of the Act, is that the witnesses who'd be referred to in the hearings would be given statements of those witnesses in advance.  I understand the practical difficulty, I'm merely saying it also raises practical difficulties for me and it's not consistent with the dictates of the law.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to go on or do you want to have a brief adjournment since I think - I mean they more or less cover - at least two of them cover much the same ground, for you to consult - I mean, a 15 minute break - we could just as well go to tea.

MR SEMENYA: Now, Deputy Chairperson - I'm very sorry  Chairperson.   ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm Chairperson.

MR SEMENYA: I'm very sorry for that one.  No, I do not have questions for the witness who is now testifying.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any others?  Yes Mr Joseph?

MR JOSEPH: Doctor Motlana, my surname is Joseph, I represent Mr Cebekhulu and Emma Nicholson.  I have a little difficulty with the language which is used on page 3
"I recall attending"
Page 3, the penultimate paragraph, do you have that paragraph?

TATO MOTLANA: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Certain concerns - certain matters concerned you and you raised it with Mrs Mandela, I assume that was allegations of abduction or kidnapping and you then simply asked that she release the young adults - you simply asked her to release, is that correct?

TATO MOTLANA: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, for the record please ...[intervention]

TATO MOTLANA: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: The language used - and my learned friend raised with you, people are released when they are held against their will.  Now, when you asked Mrs Mandela to release the children, how did she respond?  Did she respond saying: "No", did she respond saying: "Yes" or did she respond saying: "They are not held against their will, they are here voluntarily"?  How did she respond?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, I'm going to repeat myself for the fifth time, that I had a discussion with Mrs Mandela that the people are concerned about the children who are held - presumably against their will, will you release them and she did.

MR JOSEPH: What was her answer to you at the meeting?

TATO MOTLANA: I cannot recall what happened in January 1989 - the discussion that took place, all I know is what resulted from those discussions and those held against their will were subsequently released.  Whether I had a fight with her, I can't remember but what I recall is that we had ...[indistinct] discussion and the children were released.

MR JOSEPH: Allow me to ask you one other question.  You refer to these people as children ...[intervention]

TATO MOTLANA: I'm sorry?

MR JOSEPH: You refer to the people who were released as children.

TATO MOTLANA: I did?  The word used here is minors, not children.

MR JOSEPH: In your evidence today you've been using the word: "children".

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, then I regret - I apologise because these were not children ...[intervention]

MR JOSEPH: You don't have to apologise.

TATO MOTLANA: When did I refer to them as children?

MR JOSEPH: Everybody has been referring to them as children.

TATO MOTLANA: Exactly, but not this man.

MR JOSEPH: Not this man?

TATO MOTLANA: No.

MR JOSEPH: Okay.  I asked the question because as far as I can recall you referred to them.  Now, they were not children, these were young adults and the information we have is one was 29 years old, the other was 19 years old and the other was 20 years old, is that correct?  Are you able to confirm that they were round about that age?

TATO MOTLANA: I can confirm Mr Chairman, that they were young men.

MR JOSEPH: Young men?

TATO MOTLANA: I don't know their ages really.

MR JOSEPH: Young men who seemed to you fit and well and if they wanted to run away from any person who was trying to sodomise them, they were able to do it themselves, wouldn't you say so?

MR MADLOPA: Chairperson, this question is very speculative and he's asking information from a client which he does not too clearly know and have in his personal capacity and therefore I can't see how can he in all likelihood answer that question.  It's very speculative Mr Chairman, with respect.

TATO MOTLANA: Thank you for protecting me, I didn't know how to handle that one.  I suppose if they wanted to run away, they could run away - who am I to say?

MR JOSEPH: You saw nothing about their physical appearance which would have made it incapable for them to leave a Christian Missionary or a Christian home when the particular individual was not present, the individual who was threatening them or the individual who was abusing them?  They were able to walk and they were quite sound and healthy, correct?

TATO MOTLANA: You are asking a doctor you know.

MR JOSEPH: I know that.

TATO MOTLANA: And a doctor might want to say: "I'll have to test their muscles, their reflexes you know, to see whether they can run".

MR JOSEPH: I'll take the chance.

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, protect me, I can't answer that question.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what the purport of it is, did they in fact require protection?

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry Mr Joseph, I think the question that we would like to have answered is: "What condition were these boys in when they were handed over to you"?

MR JOSEPH: Madam, that's not my question.  There are no enemies over here and we're all friends and we're here to help these people, have I made myself clear?

TATO MOTLANA: Let me try and answer your question.

MR JOSEPH: It is people as eminent as you three gentlemen who will be able to assist this Commission because what you say is accepted without any reservation,  there are other people who give evidence who have obvious reasons not to tell the truth.
 Now the reason for these four men ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.