Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: No.  They showed me photographs after which they inquired as to whether I knew who these people were, that's what I meant in that statement.

MR VISSER: I see.  And you also say in that paragraph that your grandparents had always warned you not to say anything, that is to the police I take it, is that correct?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Because it would endanger the lives of your uncles?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, because it was assumed that it was a criminal offence to leave South Africa, that could be the reason why they didn't want me to say anything about my uncles.  They didn't want me to say anything because I knew nothing in the first instance, I did not even know where they had left - where they had gone to.

MR VISSER: Well you see that's really the point, but let's go on.  When you went to Botswana, do you know whether your grandfather and his two wives registered as refugees?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I don't know.

MR VISSER: Now...

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Excuse me, or please repeat this Chairperson.

MR VISSER: No, I just want to know whether your grandfather and your grandmothers registered as refugees in Botswana after you left.

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I have no idea.

MR VISSER: Can you remember where you moved to when you went to Botswana?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, we moved to ...(indistinct), it's a rural area.

MR VISSER: Yes and what did you call that place where you moved to?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: It wasn't a camp, was it?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: No, as I am saying, it was a rural site, there were these rural huts and that's where the family was.  There was a family staying there.  I cannot say exactly who these people were, but I assumed they were relatives.

MR VISSER: And after you lived with the relatives, did you then move somewhere?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, we moved about for some time before we went to settle in another place.

MR VISSER: I see.  Did you ever stay in a refugee camp?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, we went to some place called Dukwe, that is if I am not mistaken.  It is around Francistown.

MR VISSER: Alright and then your grandfather managed to obtain a house or more than one house and then you moved to Gaberone, would that be correct?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: ;   And you as an 11 year old, or 10 year old, say in paragraph 6 that your grandfather met various ANC members in Botswana.

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes.

MR VISSER: How do you know that?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I say this because I remember there was one man who was introduced to us, I cannot say exactly what position he held, but that is the man who welcomed us in that place.  He was the one who was looking after us in terms of groceries.

MR VISSER: And was he from the ANC?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I think he came from the ANC because we were staying in that area together with him and that was an ANC area.

MR VISSER: So did you assume that the people who were living in that area were all ANC people?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Correct.

MR VISSER: And is that why you say that after meeting various ANC members in Botswana, your grandfather obtained a job with the ANC, is that why you say that?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And you then go on to say that, and you were asked about that, in paragraph 14 that you grandfather was definitely not involved in MK activities, do you remember saying that in your statement?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, I am still saying that.

MR VISSER: Now your grandfather, did he sleep at the house where you stayed with your grandmother Emma every night?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I used to stay with my grandmother Elina.

MR VISSER: Elina, sorry.

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: And that's where my grandfather used to spend his evenings.  That is where we used to spend our evenings.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Without exception?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes.  Even though he had left to go to the other grandmother, he would inform us.

MR VISSER: Yes, well didn't he stay with Emma Mtsweni some nights?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: As I am saying that if he went to the other grandmother, Emma Mtsweni, he would inform us beforehand and tell us that he was going to spend the evening there.

MR VISSER: Yes and you believed him?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes.

MR VISSER: But during those times that he didn't spend the night with you and your grandmother Elina, you don't know where he was, except for what he told you?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I knew.  I had confirmation in some instances.

MR VISSER: You see, I'm going to put it to you that if your grandfather was involved with MK, there's no reason in the world why he would have told you as a 10 year old and placed you in danger with that knowledge.  If you don't understand I'll put it another way.  Do you want me to rephrase the question for you?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: No, I think I understood you.

MR VISSER: Do you have any reply?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, I understood what you're saying.  Continue.

MR VISSER: Well the question is, you say - let's start again.  You said that you supposed that your grandfather was not involved in MK activities here today, your evidence, because you said he would come home regularly and he would have told you if he had been.  Do I have your evidence correct?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Even though he did not tell me, I could have seen.  You see if a person was an MK soldier, you could easily tell and if somebody was a member of a particular army, you could easily see that and in this case there was no indication at home to that effect.

MR VISSER: How could you easily see when somebody was a member of an army, as you say, or an MK?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: I think the person would have a uniform, identifying him with the particular grouping, he would have a firearm or firearms, he would wake up, go to work with the people that he was working with and there was nothing suspicious about his movements at all.

MR VISSER: And that's the reason why you believe that your grandfather or you suppose that your grandfather was not involved with MK, those are the reasons?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR COETSER: I have no questions thank you Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER

MR BERGER: Just one, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: How often would your grandfather not sleep at home and tell you that he was going to sleep at his other wife's house?  How often was that?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Not often.

MR BERGER: Approximately in a month, how many times would he not sleep at home?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: That would be very difficult to estimate, but I knew it didn't occur frequently.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR MALAN: Ms Mokoena, I have questions related to two aspects.  The first is, did I hear you correctly saying that the police, when you were still living in South Africa, confronted you with photographs, asking you to identify the people?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, they actually took us at night and they took us to the police station and showed us these pictures and questioned us.

MR MALAN: Did they question you in the presence of your grandparents, or did they question you separately?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: My grandfather and my grandmother were not in the same room and myself and the other people.

MR MALAN: And if I understand it correctly, you must have been four, five, at the most six years old and the police took you as a really young child out at night?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes.  Those things came as a surprise to me.  I couldn't understand how kids were involved in this whole thing.

MR MALAN: The other thing is your paragraph 8 of your statement.  You make a very specific statement about the 13th of June, the day before the attack, that a bakkie drove past, taking some photographs of your home.  You say that was in day time, you say the day before the attack.