Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-26

PETER JOHN STOREY: Mr Chikane had indicated to me that the Crisis Committee was going to see Mrs Mandela on the 11th.  On Thursday the 12th, he reported to me that he and Aubrey Mokoena and Sister Bernard Ncube and Sydney Mufamadi had visited Mrs Mandela on the 11th.  She had told them that she was protecting these youths and that they were not abducted, they were there of their request.
 Initially she agreed that they could have access to these youths immediately, but she had changed her mind and told them to come back later in the day.  Mr Chikane also at that time spoke to me about serious concerns he had for Paul Verryn's safety.  He said, and I quote: " The football team members are ruthless and well armed" unquote.  Now the Crisis Team then returned in the afternoon of Wednesday the 11th, this time without Mr Chikane, and I think it's because he was going overseas - I seem to remember that he had a trip and had to catch a plane. 
 When they came in the afternoon, Zinzi Mandela, who was there in the house, indicated to them that one of the youths had quote "escaped" unquote, and they regarded that statement as being fairly significant because of the implications of the word "escaped", if you apply it to people who are there of their own free will.  They chose to ignore this remark but they noted it.  
 When the access was granted to the youths, they noted that Pelo and Thabiso had fresh wounds on their bodies, that Katiza  did not.  All three youths maintained that they were there of their own free will, that they had been subjected to sexual advances by Paul Verryn.  
 However, one of these youths at some point - according to the report I received from Mokoena, Ncube and Mufamadi - found himself alone with them, and he broke down under questioning and admitted that they were being held against their will and that they had been told to tell the story about the sexual advances.  He said, I quote: "I'm going to die anyway, so I may as well tell the truth" unquote.  Now, it seems that that was Katiza.
 The group then left the children there and gave no indication that any one of them had broken down, for fear of their safety.  What they were really concerned about now was Stompie, knowing that if only one of the youths had quote "escaped" unquote, it must have been Kenny Kgase, so where was Stompie?  Chikane said he was leaving for Europe and he indicated that he would contact Oliver Tambo and that Mr Nelson Mandela was also to be contacted and shown written statements about this abduction, which were prepared by the remaining residents of Paul Verryn's house. Those who had remained in Verryn's house, in the church house, had in fact put together a statement about what happened on the night of the abduction.  Then I - Frank Chikane asked me if I could make Paul Verryn available that same afternoon of the 12th of January to meet with the Crisis Committee to answer some questions which they wanted to ask of him, related particularly, I think, to the allegations of his sexual misconduct.

MR VALLY: Bishop, if you could just move from there to page 4, go to Friday the 13th of January, please.

PETER JOHN STOREY: On Friday, I met again with the Crisis Committee, and Paul Verryn was present at 8 o'clock, and they reported on their interview with the youths again and their report agreed with that of Frank Chikane's.  The Crisis Committee then did question Paul Verryn, mainly about details about of who stayed with him, for how long, etc. They said they were trying to verify certain details.
 I asked him to leave, and I then questioned the Crisis Committee about any charges of sexual abuse that may have come from the youths. Their reply was that nothing substantial was said in this regard except in the case of Katiza, who referred to Paul rubbing against him.  We then decided to meet again at 4 o'clock that day, and then we went to try and get legal representation. Mr Fink Haysom agreed to represent us.  ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Sorry, Bishop, I will be pushing you along in some places.

PETER JOHN STOREY: By all means, sir.

MR VALLY: Could you please go on to the meeting with the Crisis Committee again.

PETER JOHN STOREY: 3 o'clock that afternoon we met the Crisis Committee, and this time the issue was the issue of whether we could get a writ of habeas corpus, and Mr Haysom had advised us that this was not going to be easy because you need parents usually to do this, and who would be in loco parentis?
 However, he indicated that the crucial thing was whether those members of the Crisis Committee who had seen these youths and the condition they were in, and had heard the confession of one them in Mrs Mandela's house, would be willing to give evidence to support a writ of habeas corpus.  
 That's what I put to the members of the Crisis Committee that afternoon. They refused.   Aubrey Mokoena indicated that they didn't have a mandate, and he was the one, I think, most strongly advising us that we should not proceed legally because we would lose without their evidence and that Verryn would become the scapegoat.
 Now, sir, we need to get some picture - we actually were in a hostage negotiation, that's what we were engaged in here, and we had to try and work out ways of putting pressure, sufficient to obtain the release of those young people, and not so much pressure as might tempt anyone in the house to act towards those young people as we already  had begun to suspect had happened to Stompie That was the kind of balancing act that we were involved in.

MR VALLY: Bishop, just on this point, if you say you felt you were in a hostage situation with trying to negotiate the release of the youngsters without any harm coming to them, who in your perception or from your knowledge was the hostage-taker?

PETER JOHN STOREY: There was no doubt in my mind by this stage already that the person we were negotiating with and dealing with was Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: Please go on to page 5.  If you could on page 5, just deal with the first two paragraphs and then the last paragraph before Saturday the 14th of January.

PETER JOHN STOREY: The Crisis Committee having refused to assist in a habeas corpus operation, left us really in great difficulty about how to proceed, but they did give the assurance - and I think this is where we thought the next step might be - that there would be a calling together of the whole community leadership in the area as soon as possible.  And I interpreted that as an attempt to engage the involvement of a much wider circle of community leaders in trying to resolve the problem, and I was grateful at least for that possibility.
 I also asked them to send a message to Mrs Mandela via Ismail Ayob, who was her lawyer at that time, that the safety of the children was being very carefully monitored by the church and the community - it was really a warning, it was simply an attempt to say, anything untoward - further untoward - that happens to these children, is going to be very, very carefully monitored.  It was just an attempt to try and guarantee their safety.  
 Then you want me to go on, sir, to where?

MR VALLY: Please go on to Saturday the 14th.

PETER JOHN STOREY: Saturday the 14th?  Well, ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: I'm so sorry, did you cover the aspect of Mr Ayob's visit to Mrs Mandela?

PETER JOHN STOREY: No.

MR VALLY: Please do that first.