Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-17

MR SEWPAL: Perhaps I should just point out that in terms of the Appellate Division judgement, the court there felt that the court below was not justified in coming to that particular conclusion because there wasn't sufficient evidence to justify that finding.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is so, that is the view of the Appeal Court, but I'm talking about the situation at the trial court and I want your response on that.  That's what the court that tried you, the first court that heard your case, Judge President of this Division at that stage, that's what he found.  He drew the conclusion that all this happened because you were looking for muti, now do you wish to comment on that at all?

MR TSHABALALA: The truth is we didn't do that and I also don't know anything about needing organs to make muti, this is what police thought, but it was nothing like that.  We don't know why they came to that conclusion.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the only thing that you did to the body, to remove the liver and the scrotum to throw to the dog so as to prevent the dog from biting you, that was all you did, if I understood you correctly.  Was that right?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's correct and that's the only thing we did in that body, the rest I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: And the rest couldn't have happened, you say.

MR TSHABALALA: No, it didn't happen and it couldn't have.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes thank you.  Mr Sewpal, have you got any re-examination?

MR SEWPAL: I've got no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SEWPAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Tshabalala, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR TSHABALALA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sewpal.

MR SEWPAL: Thank you.  I would like to call Mandla Richard Tshabalala.

MANDLA RICHARD TSHABALALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sewpal.

MR SEWPAL: Thank you.

MR SEWPAL: Mr Tshabalala, where did you live, in which area did you live during 1990?

MR TSHABALALA: Thabamhlope in Estcourt.

MR SEWPAL: Were you a member or supporter of any political organisation at that time?

MR TSHABALALA: Supporter.

MR SEWPAL: On which organisation?

MR TSHABALALA: ANC.

MR SEWPAL: Was there any other political organisation that was active in your area at that time?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes there was.

MR SEWPAL: And what was the relationship between these two organisations?

MR TSHABALALA: Conflict between the two organisations, the ANC and the IFP.

MR SEWPAL: Okay.  And did you or anybody in your family ever get caught up in any conflict with either one of these parties during that time?

MR TSHABALALA: I went once in a meeting.

MR SEWPAL: Okay, what sort of problems were there between these two political organisations?

MR TSHABALALA: They were fighting, shooting each other. and most of the time the IFP was shooting the ANC.

MR SEWPAL: Okay.  Were you as an ANC member or any other person that you knew, closely involved in any of this violence?

MR TSHABALALA: No.

MR SEWPAL: Okay.

ADV SANDI: I think the problem there is you put two questions together.

MR TSHABALALA: I only attended one meeting.

ADV SANDI: I was just saying you put two questions to him, you've combined them.  Why not start the first part of the question, then the second part?

MR SEWPAL: I apologise for that.  Did you or any person closely associated with you, get involved at any level in any of the violence with any of the political organisations?

MR TSHABALALA: No.  The only time I was involved was when I attended a meeting.

MR SEWPAL: Okay.  Now you were found guilty of being involved in the murder of the deceased in this case, do you agree with that?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do.

MR SEWPAL: Now how did it come about that you were involved in this killing?

MR TSHABALALA: The problem only started when my mother was killed by IFP and they were also hunting me down, they wanted to kill me, therefore I went to accused no 2 in order to hide and in order to have solutions on the problem and I told him my problem and they came out with an idea that there was a white man who had guns and if we can go there, we can go and tie him up and get his guns, but when we arrived in his house, it didn't happen as planned because he saw us first and then he ran, he wanted to run inside his house.  We blocked him, he couldn't get inside his house, because he was looking for his gun.  We didn't want to let him inside his house because we were scared that if he did, he was going to grab his gun and start shooting at us.  Accused number 2 hit him with a stick and then he fell down.   We started stabbing him and then he died.  We got scared after we realised that he's dead, then we decided that we should burn his body, so that they don't discover his body but then we realised that his dogs were there, that's when we started cutting his body.  We cut off his liver.  We gave that liver to his dogs and then the boiler was hot and we started searching his house for guns and my co-accused searched his car and we couldn't get hold of any guns.  As we were there, police came and they started searching us.  They asked us why we were there.  We told them we were there because we wanted to buy the cattle and police started searching the house and the yard.  They realised that there were blood stains and they also saw the dog and then the white man's employee came and they said they saw us getting in his house, that's how we were arrested.

MR SEWPAL: Now can you tell us what was your motive in going to the deceased's house on that day?

MR TSHABALALA: We went there looking for firearms because we knew that he was the one who was supplying IFP supporters and members with firearms.

MR SEWPAL: So would it be correct to say that if you took the firearms away from the deceased, you would effectively cut off the supply of firearms to the IFP?

MR TSHABALALA: I was trying to protect my family because I had lost so much at that time.  I never took part in violence but they came and they killed my mother and they burned down my house and then knowing that that white man was supplying weapons, then I decided to go to his house to get hold of those guns, but my aim was not to kill him because he was strong and he was a soldier.  I never had any intentions of killing him.  All I needed from him were his guns.

MR SEWPAL: Now how did you know that the deceased was supplying firearms to the IFP?

MR TSHABALALA: I saw him twice, even though he only saw me when he died, but I saw him twice doing that.   He used to come in my neighbourhood.

MR SEWPAL: Now apart from the liver, did you or any of the other accused cut up any other part of the body of the deceased and remove any parts from it?

MR TSHABALALA: It was just the liver and his scrotum.  In fact when his scrotum was cut, we asked each other why would we remove that, because it's not fair and then we decided that we should burn his body.  That's when we realised that this was a serious crime.

MR SEWPAL: Are you aware that the police said that they found certain human body parts in small bottles and in a bowl inside the house of the deceased?  Do you know anything about those parts?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, police said so, but I personally know that they were just saying something they don't know because police searched the house and we saw them even taking the deceased's money in front of us and some other stories, they were just putting them as if we were the ones, but we saw them doing that.  Police took almost everything in his house.  They actually vandalised his house.  They took car parts and all of this they put down as if we took is and they were calling us monsters.

MR SEWPAL: Now after you placed the deceased's body in the boiler, what happened next?

MR TSHABALALA: We didn't even look at his body, we left his body there.  We went to his car and we also went inside the house to search for the guns.

MR SEWPAL: And did you find any guns?