Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: It's a long time, Mr Chair.  In this case I think Mr Gold is mistaken, Mbazwana does not ring a bell with me at all concerning this operation.  I can remember specifically that we were at Pongola, we had coffee, I imagine that Brig Visser had a flask of coffee with him and we drank coffee, which we shared with the deceased and I remember it as Pongola.

MR BOOYENS: Geographically, for the record, Mbazwana is at the coast, is that true?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's correct.  It is close to Sodwana Bay.  At that stage the road between Mbombo and Mbazwana was in a very poor condition, so I can't imagine that we would have been able to get to Mbazwana with my car, but it is a long time ago.

MR BOOYENS: If you say your car, do you mean a conventional car, not a four-wheel drive?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's what I now say.  My car was a Ford 3 Litre, a Cortina.  It was low, close to the ground.  I don't know if I would have been able to get to Mbazwana at that stage.  I can't remember ever being at Mbazwana with that specific vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: The arrangement was now that Mr Gold had to meet you at Pongola and then you and Col Visser, page 69, you went to a rural town and fetched the deceased, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Col Visser, when I spoke to him later he said it was a place between Ventersdorp and Klerksdorp with the name of Klerkskraal.

MR BOOYENS: So that was in the Western Transvaal?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's right, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: But you only heard that later?   When you did your application, you couldn't remember the place but it was in the Transvaal rural area?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: You fetched the man at Klerkskraal.  Where was that?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I can't remember whether it was at a house or at an office or perhaps at a police station.  I remained seated in the car and Col Visser went and fetched the person.  They came back and the person sat in the back of the car and Col Visser sat in the front.  The person had no handcuffs and he was calm and had not been forced to come with us.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, he was not treated like a prisoner?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: No.  The conversation between them was like those between a handler and an agent.

MR BOOYENS: And then you left for Northern Natal?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct, it was late afternoon, the sun was setting.

MR BOOYENS: You drove through the night and early in the morning reached Pongola?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct.  I can't remember exactly, it could have been about 4 o'clock, perhaps earlier, when we reached Pongola.

MR BOOYENS: And Mr Gold, according to your recollection, you met him there?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You told me it's difficult to remember precise detail, but from Pongola, as you remember, tell the Committee what were your movements then?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I remember that we went to Josini Security Branch where we met Gert Schoon.  W/O Schoon, I had contacted him but I can't remember whether it was the day before from Jo'burg or that morning from Pongola, however, we did meet with him and I recall that it was close to or at the Security Branch at Josini.

MR BOOYENS: Josini and Pongola are how far from each other?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: 35 to 40 kilometres more or less, yes.

MR BOOYENS: At some or other stage the operation was explained to Mr Schoon as well as the motivation for it, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, either myself or Col Visser explained to Mr Schoon, I can't remember, but I explained to him how serious it was, how urgent it was and the fact that we were looking urgently for a place to finalise the operation and that I could only think of their area.  Mr Schoon was a bit surprised, possibly.  He told me that he would get hold of Sgt Des Carr at that time, I can't remember whether that was Josini or Mbazwana, because he was stationed at Mbazwana at that stage and he would have heard whether Karel could perhaps help us.  The only place that he could think of that was remote and suitable enough, was at an old farmhouse close to the Josini Dam, almost on the banks of the dam, the Josini dam, close to the Pongola camp and that the destruction of the corpse could hopefully take place there.  We knew that the corpse was eventually exploded on an island in the dam.

MR BOOYENS: How did the island come into it?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: It was also I think from Mr Schoon because he knew the area better than we did.  I think that he suggested that the island, because it was in the middle of the dam and the dam covered a large surface, that the island was perhaps remote and suitable for the operation.

MR BOOYENS: Would arrangements be made for a boat then?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I don't remember whether the boat had been arranged at that stage already or whether we all first went to the farm house.  I can remember that we did arrive at the farm house and that we waited there for Mr Schoon to return with the boat.  Brig Visser, at that stage, was waiting close to the dam as far as I know, for Mr Schoon to return with the boat and at the house it was just me and Sgt Gold and the deceased and my recollection is that Sgt Carr arrived a little bit later.

MR BOOYENS: So in any case before you could start with your side of the operation, the boat would have had to be there otherwise you'd have been stuck with a person who had been killed and no boat.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct, yes, though I can't remember how we communicated about the boat.

MR BOOYENS: How far is the farmhouse from the side of the dam, the water?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: A couple of hundred metres, depending on how high the water was because just before, I had stayed before in the house doing an observation on the Swaziland border between Piet Retief and Pongola and the country borders go directly along the national road and it was known that the ANC made use of that point to bring terrorists and logistics into the country and that point was, at that stage, under observation for quite a while and then we also stayed in that house.  My recollection is that that house was about 200/250 metres from the water.

MR BOOYENS: While you were waiting, where was Scorpion at that point?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: He was, I can't remember for all of the time, but he lay under a tree right in front of the house and was asleep at some stage.

MR BOOYENS: The possibility was mentioned, some of the people mentioned it as a fact that this man was given drugs.  Do you know something about this?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: No, I have no knowledge of that.

MR BOOYENS: You yourself did not have drugs with you, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: No, I didn't.

MR BOOYENS: And you yourself didn't give him drugs?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: No, I didn't.

MR BOOYENS: And he was constantly in your presence and in Col Visser's presence?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You drove through the night, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: My inference was that the person was tired.  I myself was also tired.  He also slept in the car and with the waiting, he wasn't involved in any of the conversation, so he just went and lay down under the tree and slept.

MR BOOYENS: Mr van Zyl, Mr Des Carr arrived a bit later, is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Then they decided to go ahead with the elimination of MK Scorpion, is that right?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Please tell the Commission shortly, briefly what happened there.