Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

FUNDISELE GULENI: I disagree with that in the sense that when we were told that they were suspected APLA members, we had to rush because we wanted to prevent them from doing things that was threatening us as the organisation, and as we were questioning them, we knew that APLA members were once in Port St Johns and area, were dangerous in different, many ways.   When we went to search them there, we wanted to see because if they were armed, we would then say their intention was  to disturb our rally and be violent.  We questioned them, but this shooting - the shooting incident without my order, took place and we did not know that we were going to be told about the people, APLA members, who were present in the area.  It is political in the sense that this whole incident in political because we went there with the aim of preventing eminent attacks, more especially on that particular day, there was going to be this big rally that was going to be addressed by the General.

MR MALUSI: Even if we were to accept your proposition, even if we were to accept what you are saying, on your own version, it may have been political to first abduct them, to avert  a precipitated attack, it may have been political to question them about their motives to establish clearly that they wanted to attack you or they did not want to attack you.  It may even have been political to assault them during the interrogation, but the point I am putting to you is simply this, according to your own version, they were shot by accident, and after being shot by accident, you decided to kill them.  I am saying the killing of the APLA members was then no longer political?  There could be no political objective with the actual killing, the killing was purely to cover your backs, so to speak?

FUNDISELE GULENI: As far as I am concerned, first of all we did not know these people, there was no reason for us to kill them if this whole thing was not political.  What led us to finish them off, it is because there are those reasons as we have stated, but above that, we knew that if they could go back and report back to their organisation, and tell them what had happened, we knew that it was going to put us in trouble, because we were always attacked, all the time.

MR MALUSI: Let's get to what you are saying, you are saying if one of them goes and makes a report that he was attacked by the ANC, he was attacked by your group, it would give you problems.  Indeed two of them did survive that.  Did the counter-attack materialise?  Did you get into any other trouble of a counter-attack by the PAC, problems with the PAC, except for your prosecution by the criminal justice system?  Except for that, did anything else materialise?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I do not remember them coming back, the survivors that is.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not participate in the Workshop incident?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been charged for anything arising out of that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I was never charged.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why I am saying, listen to the question.

MR MALUSI: If you will pardon me, if I recollect correctly, the killing of the APLA 5 members was after the other two incidents, that is the attack on the Workshop and the attack on Mapipa, am I correct in that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALUSI: In effect, after Mr Gasmeni survived the attack and after the bodies of the deceased were recovered, would I be correct to say there was no further attack on the ANC by APLA, resulting from the abduction and the killing of the five APLA members?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I do not remember about any attack that took place.

MR MALUSI: What would your comment be then if I put it to you that this fear on your part that there would be a counter-attack, retaliation by APLA/PAC is merely a fabrication, an after-thought on your part?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is not correct and if you can allow me the opportunity, I will give you the reasons.

MR MALUSI: Certainly, give the reasons.

FUNDISELE GULENI: First of all, after this shooting incident that took place in the school, there were roadblock operations that were conducted by the military and the police.  The APLA members were arrested at that time and the firearms confiscated, they were at the police station.  That was a sign that we could not undermine the fact that they would go back and report and come back and retaliate.  Though the statutory forces intervened, they managed to be - they were always arrested on their way to Port St Johns with firearms in the roadblocks.

MR MALUSI: A final question, my instructions from Mr Gasmeni are that even after he and the other survivor were submitted to the Port St Johns Hospital, members of the ANC so he believes, actually visited the hospital and attempts were further made on their lives.   They had to be transferred from Port St Johns Hospital to other hospitals in the Transkei, do you have any knowledge of this?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, not at all.

MR MALUSI: So I take it that you would not have been involved in that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALUSI: Thank you for your time, sir.  Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALUSI

MR MGXAJI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Guleni, on page 24 of the Bundle of documents, in the application form, you are requested to state the political objective in the act for which you filed the application for amnesty.  You say
"... we believed Mapipa and others were out to destabilise the ANC election campaign in Port St Johns."
	I will stop there.   Do you still advance that as the political objective for the Mapipa case?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct.

MR MGXAJI: Mapipa was murdered, I use the term murdered deliberately, on the 23rd of March 1994, right?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct, but I cannot confirm the date.

MR MGXAJI: The Voter Education Workshop was held on the 28th of March 1994, do you have a recollection of that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct.

MR MGXAJI: Mr Mapipa at Nzimbeni owned a shop and was therefore a businessman, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct.

MR MGXAJI: In your testimony proffered by you here, in all the alleged clashes you enumerated the meetings held by structures in which ANC and PAC were involved, you only mentioned Mr Mposelwa and you did not mention Mr Mapipa.  Would you change that as an after-thought or do you still adhere to that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I would not change that.

MR MGXAJI: Therefore even in the Ratepayers Association alleged clashes in relation to the municipality governance in Port St Johns, Mr Mapipa residing at a rural locality, Nzimbeni is certainly not involved, are you with me?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I would not say that he was not involved, but he was not personally there.

MR MGXAJI: And therefore at no stage in relation to the Voter Education, in relation to the incidents you enumerated in your evidence, he was not as Mapipa involved, right?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Please rephrase your question, or repeat your question.

MR MGXAJI: In relation to the alleged clashes relating to the municipality at Port St Johns, Mr Mapipa as Mapipa, was not involved?  Do you agree with me?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is so.

MR MGXAJI: I have indicated that Mapipa is owning a shop at Ngqeleni.  That shop was burgled into on the 25th of March 1994, do you have any knowledge of that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I don't have any knowledge regarding that.

MR MGXAJI: The Transkei Defence Force ransacked Mr Mapipa's house.  My instructions are on the 26th, at dawn on the 26th of March and there was nothing in terms of arms that were found in terms of strangers that were found at his house.  You may not know this, but will you dispute it?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I don't have any knowledge thereof, therefore I cannot add or subtract on that.