Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-15

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think there's wisdom in that suggestion.  Mr Bellingan, this is a new document, it's new stuff that we're dealing with, so let's try and keep the possible disputes as limited as possible.  We want to get this case done.

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Bellingan, just for clarity, at this stage I want you to deal with this exhibit only to the extent that we are now dealing with the status of the discussion document that forms part of bundle 1, only the status.

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: Right.

MR HATTINGH: That's what we're looking at this document for.

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: There's only three things that I'd like to point out to the Committee.  Then I say further over here on the same page
"It's not exactly the type of thing ...(indistinct) the skeleton.  To flesh it out is difficult and to remember stuff over I mean, 20/15 years ago ..."
etc., etc., etc.  And then Jan's response, on page 4 he says:
"Ja"
I say:
"So it is a process which needed yourself and Kobus."
He says:
"Ja"
Myself:
"To go through it step by step.  It hasn't really happened."
		"Ja"
He says.
"I mean he's - I'll see if I can contact him today and see what he's doing uhm, but I think ..."
Then he goes on like that.  Then on page 8, Mr Chairman, at counter 106, sort of three quarters of the way down the page, I say:
"But I mean, by the time I've sat with Kobus and yourself and fleshed out the whole thing, I may have mentioned 200 names and that's all background to the murder.  So they will all need due notice.  It's getting more and more complicated."
Jan says:
"Ja, and knowing that ..."
etc., etc., etc.  In other words, he's in agreement.   Then on page 11, Mr Chairman, at counter 141, I say:
"Because I received a notification a long time ago, last year, for that skeleton that I submitted."
Jan says:
"Ja, ja"
I say:
"Uhm, so obviously it's right that they've accepted it as such, because other people here have received letters back saying you've neglected to answer this question or that question or whatever.  It's urgent, it's with a sense of urgency that four or five people have received such letters here ..."
etc., etc., etc.  
	The point that I'm making is that Mr Kjellberg is in agreement with me, that I submitted a skeleton application, it needs to be fleshed out, I need to get an attorney to flesh it out, and at no stage during the conversation does he bring to my attention that in fact he's already sent such a fleshing out to the TRC, and at no stage in March had the TRC informed me that they'd received such a thing.  
	So Jan, during this conversation, only offered me assistance in getting this document fleshed out, never was it brought to my attention that this has apparently already been done.  He only offered me assistance in getting that done.  So the impression - I mean there wasn't even a question in my mind about this other discussion document then, it never occurred to me that that may have been sent to the TRC by Mr Kjellberg, and also he doesn't bring it to my attention and neither does the TRC.  
	So the impression I still had, or had in March was just as I've had all along, and that is that my skeleton application needed to be fleshed out with an attorney - there are other references in here too, and to be sent in as a formal submission, Mr Chairman, which in fact did happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We'll take a short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bellingan, you are reminded that you are still under oath.

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: (Cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Bellingan, to conclude the status of the discussion document, Annexure I, the hand-written document of which you are still in possession of the original, does that contain any signature or confirmation or affirmation under oath?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman, neither the hand-written nor the typed one.

MR HATTINGH: Now the next issue is the existence for this document, Exhibit I, would you just explain to the Committee, perhaps once again what the reasons were for your preparation of this document, and in particular paragraph 22 thereof.

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: Yes, certainly, Mr Chairman.  I can also just point out that on these hand-written notes the references from the record are there if anyone wants to look it up, page 42 to 56, page 512, 513, page 348 to 368, page 697 to 701.  And then just to get back to  ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps before we carry on with this matter, if I may just then put on record this document and have it marked, explain the nature of this document.  It will be marked Annexure P, this is the document with the heading
"A skeleton"
And it contains approximately seven pages of notes made by Mr Bellingan.  
	The basis on which I would like to, on which this document was made available to everyone concerned was - and I would like to submit to you that in the nature of these proceedings and the extent to which your Committee may make its own rules for the manner in which these proceedings are to be conducted and furthermore in the light of my late entry into this matter and my inability to speak to the applicant and consult with him in a proper fashion prior to yesterday afternoon after I had made my request to do so, after the end of cross-examination and before re-examination, and I may also just put on record that yesterday afternoon we had not more than 10 minutes of opportunity to discuss with client any issues before he was taken away, it was then decided that client would endeavour to give me instructions because he has more knowledge of his application, I have far less knowledge of his application and what was said previously and what is relevant for re-examination or not.  
	It was suggested that he should go ahead and not write it down, evidence for the purpose of the period of re-examination, but merely to make notes of issues and pages on the record and particular parts that he would like to revisit and give an explanation.  Perhaps it may be rightly said that those issues are not quite for the purposes of re-examination, they are perhaps new issues, they may perhaps, may there not be basis to revisit those issues.  	
	But in any event, this document which I personally haven't gone through to see exactly what they contain, but they are the notes made by Mr Bellingan.  And I am going to give him the opportunity to tell the Committee whatever he wants to during this period of this meeting, and I will be leading him in this regard, but I'm going to give him the opportunity of bringing to the attention of the Committee various issues.  And this is his document prepared for this purpose.  
	And it's on that basis that we have made it available earlier this morning.  I would like to have it marked as Annexure P.  And obviously if anyone would like to make an objection to the applicant using his notes that he made last night, then they are at liberty to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that was canvassed when we started off.  You seem to be dealing with something else, the reason for the preparation of Annexure I, don't you want to proceed with that.