Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR VISSER: Chairperson, as we understand the law, a Commission of Inquiry in terms of the Commission's Act, has a very wide range of powers and authority.  They may even hear evidence, although the evidence is hearsay.  We're well aware of that, but when it goes to the crux of the matter, Chairperson, one would expect to hear first-hand evidence.  If one accepts this evidence that this witness is going to give on the basis of which it's tendered as pure hearsay evidence and it is regarded no higher than that, then perhaps I shouldn't have an objection, but certainly, Chairperson, if it's going to be used against the applicant, then we submit that you would require some better evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously the test would kick in Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Perhaps I should just leave it and let the witness give the evidence, Chairperson.  After all we're here to reconcile, as your banner says, and to find out what the truth is of the matter, so perhaps we should just leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, did she tell you which Police it was.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Did she tell you which Police arrested Mbulelo?

MS NGONO: Yes, she told me.

MR MALINDI: As a result of the information that Mbulelo had been arrested, were any steps taken by the family?

MS NGONO: I went to the offices of the United Nations.

MR MALINDI: With what purpose?

MS NGONO: I wanted them to assist me in looking for Mbulelo.

MR MALINDI: Were you or the family ever then brought to a situation where you found out what happened to Mbulelo?

MS NGONO: No we never heard a thing thereafter.

MR MALINDI: Where your brother stayed, did you know who else he stayed with or not?

MS NGONO: He was staying with  Mbilo Makwageza and Fana.

MR MALINDI: And after you got this report that he was arrested, you never heard anything - or did you hear anything from him ever again?

MS NGONO: We never heard anything.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any cross-examination, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mbulelo left in 1980, is that correct, to go into exile?

MS NGONO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The purpose was that he was joining, as you say in paragraph 4 at page 35 of the bundle
"To join the African National Congress in exile",
is that right?

MS NGONO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you know whether he joined Umkhonto weSizwe and became a soldier?

MS NGONO: Yes, I know that.

MR VISSER: While he was in Lesotho, what was his function there?  What was he doing as far as Umkhonto weSizwe was concerned?

MR NGONO: As a person who is not a member, I was not in a position to know his activities.

MR VISSER: Would you accept that he was planning to execute attacks on, well attacks in South Africa, would you accept that?

MS NGONO: If it was their duty to do so, maybe that is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.  It was put here by somebody that he was involved in an attack on police in the Transkei.  Do you know about that?

MS NGONO: I heard that.

MR VISSER: Do you also know that he was arrested by the South African Police in Qwa-Qwa, as it was put here to one of my applicants?

MS NGONO: No, I do not know that.

MR VISSER: He never told you about that?

MS NGONO: No, not at all.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, my attorney is just telling me that I might be again, and this is the third time, confusing K K with Tax, so I withdraw that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Forget the question that was asked and as well as your answer Ms Ngono.  You may proceed, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  Now as I understand your evidence today, Ms Ngono, you said that since he left in 1980 there was contact with him in 1985 when your mother went to visit him in the Transkei, is that correct?

MS NGONO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now I don't quite understand this.  I thought you said he left the country, that is South Africa, to go into exile.  Did he then leave for the Transkei in 1980?

CHAIRPERSON: He was in the Transkei in 1985.

MR VISSER: That's why I'm asking her whether he left in 1980 to go to the Transkei.  Where did he go to in 1980, as far as you know?

MS NGONO: He went to exile.

MR VISSER: Where?

MS NGONO: I have never been to exile, I don't know where he had gone to.

MR VISSER: Yes, you see, exile isn't a place, you go into exile to a place to get away from another place.  You don't know where he went?

MS NGONO: I do not know where he went to.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Did your mother not tell you in 1985 that she was going to visit Ngono in the Transkei, or did she tell you?

MS NGONO: She told me.

MR VISSER: You see then I don't understand your paragraph 5.  First of all, can the bundle page 35 to 37 be shown to you please and I want to ask you whether you recognise this document at all.

MS NGONO: Yes, I know this document.

MR VISSER: Is this a statement that was made by you?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: On the 8th of March of this year, 2000?

MS NGONO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And who was this person, Mr Mbete that says he took the statement?  Who is he?  Where does he fit in?

MS NGONO: This was a TRC investigator.

MR VISSER: Alright.  And did you tell him what is contained in this document?

MS NGONO: Please repeat your question.

MR VISSER: Did you tell him that which is contained in this document?  Is that what you told him?

MS NGONO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And was the document then typed after you told him what you know of this matter?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is correct.  Perhaps it was typed thereafter.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Was it read back to you to confirm that he got his notes of what you said, correctly?

MS NGONO: It was never read to me.

MR VISSER: Well let me ask you this then.  You signed this document that is contained at page 35 to 37, did you sign any statement?

MS NGONO: After the document was typed, I was never given a chance to sign.  As he was taking the statement from me, he was writing on a rough paper.

MR VISSER: Now if this document says:  "We never heard from him", that's Mbulelo and I'm adding since 1980 when he left for exile, "until 1987, when my later mother, Nancy Miseka Ngono, visited him in Lesotho, would that be correct?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, the witness has just indicated that there's a problem with her translation.

MR LAX: She must take her hand off the front of that thing.  If she closes those two buttons there won't be any sound.

MR VISSER: Let me repeat the question to you, if the document which purports to be a statement made by you, says in paragraph 4, read together with paragraph 5, that after 1980 when Mbulelo left for exile to join the ANC, you never heard from him again until 1987, would that be correct?

MS NGONO: No, that statement is not true.

MR VISSER: Because of what you told us today, that your mother went to visit him in 1985?

MS NGONO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Who is this relative who brought the message to you about the telephone call from Mbulelo?

MS NGONO: It's back at home.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now please explain this to me, because I don't quite understand.   Did you receive letters from Mbulelo after 1980, either you or your mother or your sister.

MS NGONO: He once wrote a letter to my mother, but most of the time he would call her.

MR VISSER: Right, through this relative?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And when did these calls start?  Can you remember?  After 1980, when did he start calling your mother?

MS NGONO: I think he started in 1985.

MR VISSER: 1985.  Yes.  So is it fair to say that since he left in 1980, there were long periods of time that you heard nothing from him?

MS NGONO: Yes, there was a time when he was very quiet.

MR VISSER: In 1987 who visited him in Lesotho, that is Mbulelo?

MS NGONO: It's my mother and my sister.