Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR VISSER: That is an important day, June the 16th, for the African National Congress, is that not so?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct yes.

MR VISSER: It is a day in which an important event is being remembered?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct sir.

MR VISSER: What about DLB's and Mr Bhila, can you fill the Committee in?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Bhila was responsible for the maintenance and distribution of weapon DLB's.

MR VISSER: Yes, we will hear more about that when Mr Botha gives his evidence.
	Were those issues you believed to be relevant to Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: As far as Mr Bhila is concerned, and as far as your information was concerned at the time, did he act in concert with others, in a unit or a cell?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, he did.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us who the other member or members of that unit might have been?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there were many amongst whom was Pumeso Nxiweni and Rosondo.

MR VISSER: And Rosondo, yes?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: And many of the arrested people which has been referred to here, as the Ramlakaners, (indistinct) personnel.

MR VISSER: Least one gets the impression from your evidence so far that there were one or two or three MK activists who were planting bombs and limpet mines and explosives, etc, in the Durban area in 1987, can you just in a sentence tell us what the situation was?  How prolific the membership was of people who had caused that kind of violent incidents?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Well, the people that we are referring to here, were part of the first internal APMC establishment by Umkhonto weSizwe inside South Africa.

MR VISSER: And they conducted their operations under a code name?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What was that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: The code name was Operation Butterfly.

MR VISSER: Operation Butterfly?  And it was due to the penetration of this Security Branch into Operation Butterfly and that is part of history now, and we know, that led to the Ramlakan case?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman, yes.

MR VISSER: On the 24th and 25th of December 1986, approximately 30 of the cell members in Operation Butterfly were arrested?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And we know that those were the ones - that was the group from which the accused in the Ramlakan case came?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When were they arrested?

MR VISSER: 24th and 25th of December 1986 Mr Chairman.  There was a swoop and approximately 30 of them were arrested.  Not to say that others of the same group weren't arrested later, but that was the big swoop.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were the accused in the Ramlakan case?

MR VISSER: From that group, not all of them were accused.

CHAIRPERSON: Judgement was given on the 18th of February 1987 with the State case closed on that day.  I think there must be some mistake about dates.

MR VISSER: I am not mistaken about December, I might be mistaken about the year Mr Chairman.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: If I may assist Mr Chairman, I think it was 1985.

MR VISSER: One year out Mr Chairman.  I think it is on record now, that Mr Bhila and Pumeso Nxiweni were inter alia two of the accused in the Ramlakan case.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: We will deal with the incidents which are laid at the door of Operation Butterfly and or its members, in the evidence of Mr Botha.
	Coming back to your participation, you have just told us that you agreed with the viewpoint of Taylor that Bhila had to be eliminated, or did you say that he was a dangerous terrorist?  I am not sure what you said.  You agreed with Mr Taylor on what?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: The reason was clear to me why Mr Taylor had said that.

MR VISSER: Did you agree with the thought that he had to be eliminated?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And you made common cause therewith?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What time of the day as best you can recollect, was it that you met Taylor on the way to Winkelspruit?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: The best of my recollection is half past three, four o'clock, just after four in the afternoon.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And would that be also more or less the time when you together with Taylor, each in your own vehicle, arrived at the pistol shooting range?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.   What did you find when you arrived there at the pistol shooting range?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I found the people from Vlakplaas there.

MR VISSER: Who were they?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr McCarter, Mr Rosslee, Mr Bosch, Mr Bhila.

MR VISSER: Did you know him well?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Bhila?

MR VISSER: Yes?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: All right, so he is there.  Who else?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I believe that was all that was there.

MR VISSER: All right, black members?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: We had Warrant Officer Lembede from Durban.

MR VISSER: Michael Lembede?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Michael Lembede, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, anyone else?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No.

MR VISSER: While you were there, did you see any interrogation of Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: There was no interrogation going on on Mr Bhila.

MR VISSER: Did you not interrogate him at all?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Not at all Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Would there have been any reason for you to interrogate Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: There is no reason for me at all to have anything to say to Mr Bhila, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Would you have known at the time, or did you know at the time, the whereabouts of Mr Pumeso?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman, yes.

MR VISSER: It has been pointed out that this incident took place within three days after Mr Bhila was discharged from the Ramlakan case.  Is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: I am sorry Mr Visser, could you just tell us you say that at that stage you were aware of the whereabouts of Mr Nxiweni?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Where was he at that time?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Allan Taylor Resident, Medical School.

MR MALAN: He was at the Res?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: It was suggested that the police and that would include you, killed Mr Bhila in order to exert the police's own special justice, because it might have been thought that the Court was wrong in releasing him.  What do you say to that proposition and that there was no other reason really why he was killed?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, that is an incorrect reason Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What perspective would you place thereon?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, Mr Bhila had already shown his readiness and preparedness to use limpet mines and distribute weaponry to other personalities.  I had little doubt that he would continue with such actions.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just ask was he not charged for exactly those type of offences?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, he was Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: If the question was do you think the Court made a mistake to release him?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Are you asking my personal opinion?

MR MALAN: Or to acquit him?  Yes, the question was that there was a suggestion that it was the police's own justice because the Court acquitted him on such counts and then you come back and you say, no, but he had already proved that he had the mines, that he was distributing weapons, wasn't that part of the charge sheet?  That is really the question, or do you know what he was charged for?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Not one hundred percent, I don't recall exactly what he was charged for, I wasn't the docket carrier.

MR MALAN: You knew everything about him, but you weren't involved in the preparation of the case?