Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

ADV BOSMAN: If that was the policy and if at this time, there was some doubt as to whether the girls were informers in the narrow sense, true informers, not just associating, was it competent for Mr Radebe, Mkondo, to decide that no, they must be killed?

BONGA KHUMALO: As a person who was second in command, if the Commander in Chief was absent, therefore he had such authority.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you personally aware that he was second in command or have you just heard this?

BONGA KHUMALO: I knew that.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: If you say that you were aware that Mr Radebe was second in command to Mr Mhlongo, are you aware because you were made privy to the appointments of senior members within the four Units, or did you in fact actively participate in the appointment?

BONGA KHUMALO: The Unit itself would after the appointment of a Commander allocate one person to whatever position, as to who was going to be a Commissar and a second in command, etc.  We only played a role in so far as the Commanders were concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not actively participate in the appointment of senior members within any particular Unit?

BONGA KHUMALO: It was our responsibility for Commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: You were only responsible for the appointment of a Commander and not for other positions, is that not what you were saying?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Since you were then responsible for the appointment of Mr Mabuza Mhlongo, to your knowledge since the Unit must have started approximately around June 1992, that is when the SDU Units became operational from your evidence, when did you appoint him as a Commander?

BONGA KHUMALO: Chairperson, I would like for you to bear with me.  I cannot refer to dates.  What I am saying here is that my responsibility within the organisation was to first of all identify people within different blocks and make out who were capable of helping us to establish the SDU's.
	I cannot be sure but one of my duties after my appointment was that I had to meet with the Commanders that I had appointed so that they could continue with their own appointments.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We have already heard from your testimony that the Units under your command, became operational in June 1992, at least you said June and later on you said mid June, I mean mid 1992.
	If you made that a pointer, are you in a position to approximate how soon after your Units had become operational, you appointed Commanders in respect of the four Units?

BONGA KHUMALO: It was not a very long time after my appointment, because what happened was that I took over from Units that were already in existence so that my responsibility was to normalise the situation by disbanding those Units that were not performing accordingly.
	It was merely a question of directing the Units.

CHAIRPERSON: But your evidence is that you nevertheless appointed Commanders in respect of the four Units, is it not so?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: After assuming office, can you just estimate in terms of weeks or months, now that we know that your Units became operational mid 1992, how soon thereafter did you appoint inter alia Mr Mabuza?  Was it immediately once they became operational, did you take a few weeks, did you take a few months since your Unit only started being operational mid-1992 and this incident occurred on the 15th of August 1993?

BONGA KHUMALO: Chairperson, I would like to go back.  My Unit I would say I appointed my Unit, taking people who were already serving in different Units.

CHAIRPERSON: There is no translation coming through.

INTERPRETER: I was requesting the speaker to slow down Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Would you please slow down as to be interpreted easily?  When you speak as fast as you do, you make it difficult for the Interpreters to explain or interpret, what you are saying.

BONGA KHUMALO: After my appointment and the appointment of Commanders, it was then a question of one to two weeks because all the Units were now resourced, materially speaking, so that the patrols continued.  It was now a question of recruitment and the Commander in Chief, had to continue with the people whom he had recruited.
	They started operating in two weeks' time after the appointment of the Commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but when did you appoint the Commanders, that is the question?   Can you estimate, if you can't, let's move on.

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, we can continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Are you also in a position to tell us when you issued a general order to your Unit Commanders to have (indistinct) killed?

BONGA KHUMALO: Will you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to tell us when you issued an order to your Unit Commanders to have (indistinct) killed?

BONGA KHUMALO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not, it is an important aspect that we are dealing with, you gave a general order, you must be in a position to assist this Committee with regard to when that order was issued?

BONGA KHUMALO: I cannot refer you to the month.   What I am saying here is that the first assignment was to ensure that no informers were seen in the township.  That was a general command to that effect.  That is the way it was.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking this question because of the evidence that you have given in this regard.  Your evidence was that you issued a general order to your Unit Commanders to have (indistinct) killed and that you did not issue a specific order to have Elsie Mokoena and Hapile Nduno killed.
	You definitely conceded that you gave a general order to your Unit Commanders to have (indistinct) killed.  I am not misunderstanding your evidence.  I remember it vividly.
	When did you issue that general order, you did issue that general order, did you not?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Let's get on with our evidence in order to conclude this matter Mr Khumalo.
	You do understand my question quite well, when did you issue that general order to your Unit Commanders?  I am not interested in you being specific in terms of the time of the day, the day of the week.  You need to approximate if you can in terms of the month or if you are unable to give an approximation in terms of the month, give us an approximation in terms of the year.

BONGA KHUMALO: In June 1992 I made this, or I issued this general order.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in a meeting when the order was issued or did you go to Commanders individually and told them about this order?

BONGA KHUMALO: It was at our meeting, the meeting of the Commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: The Commanders were all there when you gave this general order?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now there is one aspect that I want to deal with in relation to your general order.  When you gave that general order, did you made yourself understood that verification is still needed to be made in instances where persons were accused of being IFP spies and or passing on information to the police?

BONGA KHUMALO: I am getting confused now Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I will repeat myself.  When you issued your general order, did you explain to the Unit Commanders that that order was to be given by them to their members, but only in circumstances where an individual had been accused of being (indistinct), which I understand to be an informer or as you have sought to understand it to be an enemy of the people.  Where a person is accused of being an enemy of the people, or an informer, that that accusation had to be verified with your underground structures, that you were aware were in existence to do just that, to assist the Units with the verification of such information?
	Did you advise them of that or you didn't?  It is a simple question, did you or did you not advise them?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence is that you heard about this incident a day after it had occurred.  Am  I correct?