Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR MOHAPE: You know what was strange on that day when he arrived, it was at night and it was just after all sessions you know, had finished and when I went out of the hall I found Lulu Johnson - he was the president then, with him outside and when I was approaching there was a car that was just turning away from you know, at a distance, from where they were and there was a white person in that car and of course because I was at a distance, I could not ascertain who's this white person, but it was a white person.
	And what Ngo told us when we asked him how did he came to the conference, he said he took a train from Bloemfontein and when he got to the station he hitch hiked to Wentworth.  Now there is a problem with that.  If you look at the station, the Durban Station and you look where Wentworth is, it is not possible that a person can get a hitch hike from the centre of the town and then go to Wentworth because Wentworth it's a dominantly Indian, Indian dominated area.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Mohape, I think you're engaged in an argument to justify whatever conclusions you came to. I think the question was simply - and I don't know where Mr Memani got that from, that it was Erasmus.  The question was simply, Mr Memani said "Is it correct he was brought by Erasmus?" and I think your answer is you don't know who brought him.

MR MOHAPE: Alright.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stander?

MR STANDER: Thank you very much Mr Chairman.  I received
instructions to, on behalf of Mr Molefe at this stage to apply to recall him as witness and as a victim.  I'm now going to try to convince the Committee that I'm of the opinion that if one looks at the Act as it has been promulgated that in my opinion, it is correct to allow him to offer his evidence before you.  
	I want to refer you to the Promotion of National Reconciliation and Unity Act, that's the one that we work with and in particular the provisions of Section 19.  With your permission - unfortunately I only have the Afrikaans version in front of me and in Sub Section 19.4 it's pertinently mentioned and with your permission I'm going to read it to you.  If they do not deal with the application in accordance to Section 3 then (a) I'm not going to handle it because as far as I'm concerned I should possibly just read it.  In a prescribed way the applicant or any victim or person involved and I want to emphasize that, someone who is involved, or has an interest in the application and in Sub-Section B the persons mentioned in paragraph A still have to be told their right to be at the hearing and secondly to give evidence.  
	It is my argument Mr Chairman, that in the first place, Mr Molefe was involved in the evidence here, the testimony here, I don't think we have any doubt about that.  He is also a victim, not just through mention by the applicants but also of his own version and therefore my submission to you is that on strength on of the provisions of Section 24.A and B he has the right to, yesterday as well, to come and give evidence before you and therefore I apply that he comes to give testimony.  	Mr Chairman you may possibly ask me and I don't want to prejudge this or preempt this, what is the intention of his giving evidence?  The fact of the matter is this.  If he does not give evidence he cannot be determined or described as a victim and he may not receive the benefits in terms of the Act and therefore my submission to you is that he has the right and secondly it would be right and fair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he a victim in connection with acts committed by the two applicants?

MR STANDER: Yes indeed.  As I said to you yesterday as it was pointed out yesterday in the pre-hearing conference where a variety of other people were assaulted, he was named specifically therefore ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand what you're saying. The pre-hearing conference, let's get that document if I can find it.  Where is he mentioned?

MR STANDER: My Chairman, I'm sorry I don't have a copy of that.  I'm going to ask my colleagues to bring the document to me.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I think that relates to the question which was asked yesterday as to whether he has, Mr Motsamai has made an application and I promised to revert to you this morning on the issue.
	Mr Chair, if I may refer you to page 148, I think it's bundle B Mr Chair, 148.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: It's bundle A Mr Chair, I beg your pardon.  Paragraph 13 says that
"I've also been involved in the assault torture of detained or arrested political activities."
It's meant to be activists Mr Chair. 
"The said assaults and torture took place at the offices of the internal security unit at fifth floor, Fountain Street, Bloemfontein."
 This document was typed by, from the office of the Attorney and I then issued instructions that a list of people who were detained should be made out, which was then given to me which was typed in my chamber Mr Chair.  And the list I think appears at page - I don't have the page reference at this stage Mr Chair, it's at page 140 Mr Chair.  It starts at page 140 and this applicant is, this victim is referred to as number 21, Serame Molefe.

CHAIRPERSON: It does not appear in the application filed with us, does it?  The fact that it's on some list prepared in your chambers doesn't relate to the application that has been filed, doesn't relate to the incident that he has referred to does it?

ADV MEMANI: That list Mr Chair, formed part of the pretrial conference and went into this bundle as part of the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But the pretrial conference cannot create new matters, there's a cut off date isn't there?

ADV MEMANI: No, you seem not to understand Mr Chair.  What was there was this application and you know, if you go by that Mr Chair, then you would have to say all the victims - he's not applied for amnesty in respect of all the victims because that doesn't give a list of names ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't have to give a list of names he's applied for amnesty in respect of incidents that took place at the 5th floor, Fountain Street Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, and these are the names of the people that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now did this present person, was he assaulted at the fifth floor?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, it is true that the evidence up to that stage and when the objection was raised yesterday, we had not got to Fountain Street.  I was on the way there to place the evidence before you when we were stopped and prevented from giving that evidence and if you allow me, I believe that the Act is broadly placed enough - when somebody, the minute he is involved as a victim, he has a right to be hear as a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] application being heard by us, is the victim somewhere else he doesn't have the right to go to every application and say: "I want to be heard".  Tell us when and where the incident is, don't keep it a secret.

MR STANDER: I understand exactly what you mean Mr Chairman.  What I'm trying to say to you is that when we were prevented from presenting that evidence yesterday, I was in the process of allowing the witness to give evidence on events at Fountain Street.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] now, don't talk about yesterday.  He said he wanted to stop yesterday, now tell me now, when it was, what incident you are going to lead evidence on.

MR STANDER: The date I unfortunately do not have, Mr Chairman, but what he is going to say to us was that he was assaulted and he will possibly be able to give us an idea, if we can just sort out that date I can do that, but he will be able to tell us when he was taken to Fountain Street, who attacked him there, assaulted him there amongst the people who are applying here.