Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-16

MR NTJALI: As from 1991, violence erupted in the township and it was uncontrollable.  The situation was so intense that everyone was scared in the township and people were dying and this was very sad.  The reason I became involved in this incident we're talking about to day, Mr Hlongwane, who was my co-accused, he was one of my Commanders because he was the one who used to contact the person who was in a higher position, therefore Hlongwane came to me and told me that there was a factory at Peters and he said to me we should try and go and rob that factory and take that money and use it to buy weapons to protect the community.  He said the money was going to be used to buy weapons and he knew, or he did mention that the weapons were going to come from Johannesburg.  I agree with him.

UNKNOWN: Did he tell you who this money is going to be given to  buy the weapons as you mentioned?

MR NTJALI: Yes, he did.

UNKNOWN: Who was that?

MR NTJALI: He said it was going to be given to Mr Msheshe Nzimande.

UNKNOWN: Who was Mr Msheshe Nzimande?

MR NTJALI: Mr Msheshe Nzimande, according to my knowledge, he was the person with the high profile in the ANC organisation in our township, but I personally, I wasn't involved with him, but  the applicant was the one who used to communicate with him.

UNKNOWN: Do you know, did the applicant at any stage inform you as to whether he received instructions regarding the incident that took place?

MR NTJALI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And did he mention from whom you received these instructions?

MR NTJALI: Yes, he did.

UNKNOWN: Who was this?

MR NTJALI: He said Mr Msheshe.

UNKNOWN: Did the applicant ever mention to you as to whether there were any other plans that were in place?

MR NTJALI: Yes, he mentioned about a robbery to the eZakheni police station.  He told me about both plans.  He told me about plan 1, the police station, that he had already explained to the Commander Msheshe that the police station was rather dangerous and he had preferred the factory one.

UNKNOWN: And did you agree with him?

MR NTJALI: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: Going to the incident now.  Were you one of the persons who had a firearm with you?

MR NTJALI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And where did you get this firearm from?

MR NTJALI: Mr Hlongwane brought both firearms.

UNKNOWN: And did he mention anything as to where the money would be taken immediately after the incident?

MR NTJALI: Yes, he did.

UNKNOWN: Where was that going to be?  Or to whom?

MR NTJALI: He explained that if we were successful in our robbery, we will take the money and we will take it to Mr Msheshe and Mr Msheshe knew where in Johannesburg to buy the guns but I do remember that Mr Hlongwane told me that they were going to Johannesburg in a certain area, it's just that I've forgotten the name of the area where they were going to buy the guns.

UNKNOWN: After your arrest, were you and Mr Hlongwane at any time held in the same prison, or were you in contact with each other?

MR NTJALI: No.  It happened that we were incarcerated in one prison, but not in one cell.

UNKNOWN: Were you ever in contact with Mr Hlongwane since you have been imprisoned?

MR NTJALI: Pardon me, I don't quite understand your question.

UNKNOWN: Since the time that you were sentenced and then sent to prison, were you in contact with Mr Hlongwane?

MR NTJALI: Do you mean after we were sentenced?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

MR NTJALI: No, I am in Durban prison and Hlongwane is in Waterval Prison.  The only way communicate is by writing each other letters, but we were never in contact.

UNKNOWN: Did Mr Hlongwane discuss his application for amnesty with you prior to this, whilst you were in prison?

MR NTJALI: No, he didn't.

UNKNOWN: You were approached by the members of the TRC investigative unit some time last month and you made a statement and you mentioned in the statement that he was not a member of the SDU in eZakheni, that he was not a member of any political organisation.

MR NTJALI: Yes, I do know that.

UNKNOWN: Why did you say that?

MR NTJALI: The reason I said so, it was because Hlongwane never mentioned anything to me about his application to the Amnesty Committee of the Truth Commission, therefore I was a little bit sceptical.  I didn't know what they were looking for and I didn't want to say that Hlongwane was involved in these things or myself, because I didn't know what the outcome of that was going to be.

UNKNOWN: What do you mean you were sceptical?  Were you suspicious of them?  Were you afraid of them or you did not believe them at the time?

MR NTJALI: I didn't trust them.

UNKNOWN: You mentioned also in your affidavit that Mr Hlongwane did not explain to you for which purpose the money was being used.  Is that the same reason why you told them that, that you did not trust them?

MR NTJALI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Have you made an application for amnesty in regard to this incident?

MR NTJALI: No, I didn't.

UNKNOWN: Why didn't you?

MR NTJALI: My problem was I couldn't contact my co-accused, because also I was scared that I was going to put Hlongwane in trouble, because if I would have come forward and told the TRC the truth that Hlongwane was actually our Commander, he was the one who actually asked us to join him in this robbery, it was going to put Hlongwane in trouble, therefore I didn't want to do that.

UNKNOWN: What trouble did you have in mind that you could possibly put Hlongwane into?

MR NTJALI: I suspected that I was going to put him in trouble because if I had come forward, I was going to tell the TRC that he was the one who came with the idea and he was the one who gave me the firearm and he was the one who told us about the whole plan.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but at that stage he had already been punished, he had been convicted and sentenced for all this.

MR NTJALI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What was your concern - are you concerned that you would get him into even more trouble or what?  Is it because you were concerned as to the involvement of the TRC?  What is it?

MR NTJALI: My concern was if I had come forward alone without him knowing, I viewed this as something that was going to put me in conflict with Mr Hlongwane.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Ntjali, where did you grow up?

MR NTJALI: Colenso and then we moved to eZakheni.

MR MAPOMA: When were you born?

MR NTJALI: In 1963.

MR MAPOMA: Where?

MR NTJALI: Colenso, it's near eZakheni.

MR MAPOMA: Is it a rural area?

MR NTJALI: Yes, it is.

MR MAPOMA: When did you move to eZakheni?

MR NTJALI: In 1987.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever go to school?

MR NTJALI: I am not so educated, but I did go to school.

MR MAPOMA: What standard of education do you have?

MR NTJALI: Standard 5.

MR MAPOMA: Did you pass Standard 5 or you dropped out of Standard 5?

MR NTJALI: I dropped out in Standard 5, I didn't pass Standard 5.

MR MAPOMA: Which prison are you in?  In which prison are you serving your sentence?

MR NTJALI: Westville Prison.

MR MAPOMA: And when did you become aware of the amnesty process?

MR NTJALI: I heard about it in 1996.  I think if you're talking about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it was in 1996.

MR MAPOMA: And you heard about the Amnesty Committee, is that correct?

MR NTJALI: I wouldn't be certain as to when exactly I heard about the Amnesty Committee, but I will say it was in 1998.

MR MAPOMA: In 1996, what did you hear of the TRC?  What is it that you were told about the TRC in 1996?

M NTJALI: I heard that people were coming forward and relating their stories as to whatever happened to them and in their lives, they were coming forward and relating those stories.

MR MAPOMA: And what did you hear of the Amnesty Committee?