Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

ADV GCABASHE: That's the same incident where that photographer, Ken Oosterbrook, got killed.  Is that the same Mshayazafe incident?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: I don't have that knowledge.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay, thank you.

MS NHLAYISI: Could you explain what took place on this particular day, how was, were you involved in this incident?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: I was from Radebe and I was going to Mafimela,  at home, I had an AK-47 with me.  I saw many comrades and they were toyi toying, they were singing, and I joined them.  There was a van, and in that van there was a RPG 7, fireguns were just fired between Tokoza and Myala.  We went across to Tokoza.  We went towards Penduka, near the hostels, and then the people who were responsible for rockets entered.  We were deployed outside.  When the first rocket exploded it didn't sound too loud.  The second one sounded too loud.  And then fire guns were fired.  This fight I think it took longer than usual.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know whether any people were killed in this incident, killed or injured?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: No I don't know of people who died.  I only know of one person who was injured.  He was from Mavimbela.

MS NHLAYISI: Are you in a position to tell this Committee who are the other people who participated in this incident?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: There were comrades, too many of them.  I was one of the people in the mass.  Then I wouldn't know.

MS NHLAYISI: So the hostel was also damaged?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Yes, it was damaged.

MS NHLAYISI: Lastly, you mentioned an incident wherein you were mandated by the community to go and buy firearms in Mozambique.  Could you tell us about that particular incident?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Yes.  We ran out of guns.  We used to buy them from Polla Park, and these shanganes who were selling the guns left for Vosloorus in hostel there, and we followed them there to buy the guns.  And then after that they ran out of those guns because the demand increased.  The stability unit used to disarm us, and the SADF.  Then the community saw the need that we needed guns.
	Simange from Mozambique, that's where he was born, he told us that he knew where we can get the guns from Mozambique.  And then we needed one person with a passport who can accompany him.  I was the one with a passport and the community elected me to accompany him to Mozambique.  We went together.  We went via Zimbabwe.  We went to the Dongo Gara, that's a refugee camp for the refugees from Mozambique, it's near to Chipinga.  We stayed there, and his mother was staying there, the guy I was with, he was a refugee there.  We stayed at his home.  We met other gentlemen he knew.  We went to Mozambique.  We used the Sipingo border gate.  It's not a border gate in use, because it was bombed a long time before we went there.  
	We went to Chipinga Bara, it took us seven days to get there.  These other gentlemen who accompanied us left us there, and they went and they brought back twelve AK, five G3, hand grenades, RG5, 12,5.  And the rounds for AK and G3 they were full of, they were full in a sack.  And RPG7 with six shells.  We brought them back.  We came back with these two gentlemen.   Just before we arrived to Beit Bridge we left them there.  When we were supposed to cross to South Africa our car broke, and then I had to come back here to fetch a car.  I told the community as to what was going on and they bought the parts to fix the car.  We fixed the car and then after we fixed the car we drove, but we couldn't trust this car any more.  We wanted to hide the other weapons.  I think it was about nine and a half kilometres away from Messina, or the bridge to Messina, in a forest there, we left the RPG7 and grenades there, and the pistols.  We took  twelve AK-47's and five G3, and rounds.  We brought them back here to South Africa.

MS NHLAYISI: The funding for this trip to Mozambique, where did the money come from?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: From the community.  From the Radebe section community.

MS NHLAYISI: The items that you mentioned that you brought back, where did you take them after your return?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: We used them or the SDU's activities, and for the community.

MS NHLAYISI: On your return from Mozambique, did you give these items, before using them, did you give them to any particular person?  Were there for your commander or anybody in charge, or did you keep them with you?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Michael and someone else took the guns.  Michael and Mbongani, and they are the ones who distribute it to the various bases.

MS NHLAYISI: So these particular incidents that you have mentioned here today, are these everything that you participated in, or is there anything else that you wish to add?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: As far as I can remember these are the only ones I have participated in.

MS NHLAYISI: Mr Chair, that is all.  To the offences that we mentioned earlier, that the applicant is applying amnesty for, I request you add dealing in unlicensed firearms, which was not mentioned earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: Your attempted murder, I think there are one, two, three buildings or hostels, which were fired at, one of which he testifies that there were fatalities.  The other two he can't say whether there were any fatalities.  What is the position there?

MS NHLAYISI: Mr Chair I would request that we amend to say it's attempted murders of unknown, it's for the - undetermined number of people

CHAIRPERSON: Number of people in two hostels.  And with regard to the one where he knows there are casualties?

MS NHLAYISI: I would request that we amend to say its murders of undetermined number of people.

CHAIRPERSON: And of course the malicious injury to property, and arson in respect of all three.

MS NHLAYISI: All three of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'm not too sure whether the various hostels were damaged to the extent that it would be malicious injury to property or arson, but it can't be both.  What do you say?

MS NHLAYISI: I don't know.  I've seen some pictures that have been annexed to his application.  Apparently those were from the police docket.  Maybe if the Committee would look at those pictures.  There's a picture on page 135, another one 136.  If I look at them, personally I would say it's malicious damage to property, I don't know what is the feeling of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: If they shot an F1 rocket into there it must be arson at least.  Those things burn.  Wouldn't you agree?  And even if a building is scorched, that's arson.  It's a technicality but it's a necessary technicality because we're going to, if we're going to grant amnesty we must be specific for what we're granting.  Do you want to take lunch break and think about it?

MS NHLAYISI: I think so.  I will think about it and I will come back to you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished Ms Nhlayisi?

MS NHLAYISI: That's correct Mr Chair.  Regarding the question that you posed earlier before we went out on lunch break, I request to amend and request for amnesty for arson regarding the incidences at the two hostels.  Yes.  Plus the arson with the shacks at Mgadi.  So it's three incidences of arson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI: And the shacks at Mgadi section.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI: It's the shacks at Mgadi section.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI: Yes there are two hostels.  It's Byafuti and Mshayazafe hostel.  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI: Yes I am.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chair.  I have no questions for the applicant, thank you sir.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SIBANYONI: I don't have any questions thank you Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just to clarify, MITP, malicious injury to property, also only in respect of two hostels, not three?