Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: He showed us the office where the money's being counted and that those who were working with the money are in that office attached to the hall.

MR NTONGA: And then what did you three do after being given a direction by the security, did you leave him there and proceed to towards your goal?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I was the one who left first and went to another security guard to ask about the three doors that are open and as to whether we cannot close two of those so that one entrance may be used for entrance and exit.

MR NTONGA: Where did they go, the other two policemen, Mr Pama, did they remain with the security or did they go somewhere else?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Mr Pama was left or stayed with the security, standing apart and Mr Klokozile went to his position and I was at the time walking towards this security guard I was talking about.

MR NTONGA: Okay, so are you saying that after you have been given the directions by the security you took position inside the auditorium.  That is yourself, the other gentleman and Mr Pama?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that.  He said he was walking towards the other security guard to ask about the doors, he didn't say he had taken position.

MR NTONGA: What did your two colleagues do after being given directions, did they take position or did they remain with the security or do anything whilst you were going to look at the doors?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I left Mr Pama with that security guard, the security guard Mr Mankumba.  At the time Mr Klokozile had gone to his position apart from them.

MR NTONGA: Was Mr Pama still talking to the security or what was he doing when you left them having given directions?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: When I left, they were still talking, I do not know whether they're still continuing talking whilst I was talking with the other security guard.

MR NTONGA: I see.  Let's go back.  Before you entered the place where you met the security on the stairs, did you meet somebody?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Can it be repeated please - are you talking about the security guard we got and met the first time or the one I met the second time, can the question be repeated please?

MR NTONGA: Okay, before you met the first security guard, Mr Makumba, did you meet somebody or some people on the stairs before you met him, that's the first security guard?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: We found people there.  Mr Makumba was the first person we got to talk to.

MR NTONGA: I'm not talking about inside the auditorium, on the steps leading to the auditorium or let me put it this way, when you entered the auditorium where you were concerned about doors, who was the first person you met inside there?  Was it the security guard where you asked for directions?  Inside now?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: We did not see any other person as we arrived all three of us and relieved the three other policemen who left.

MR NTONGA: Were they still inside the auditorium when you arrived, the other three gentlemen?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes they were still inside.

MR NTONGA: And at the time Mr - the policeman who was talking to security, where were they, were they still there?  The other three gentlemen you went to relieve?  What were they doing the other three policemen?

INTERPRETER: There's a misunderstanding, can the question be properly asked please again to the witness.

MR NTONGA: I'm sorry - the three gentlemen that you were supposed to relieve that is the three policemen, did you find them inside the auditorium or did you find them outside when you went in?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes they were still there.

MR NTONGA: Inside the auditorium?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes.

MR NTONGA: Okay, at the time you were talking to the first security man asking for direction, they were with you or not with you or they left?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: They were in the process of leaving the hall.

MR NTONGA: You say that there was some movement there, people whom we're not sure they were students or clerks, others going out, others coming in?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes it is so.

MR NTONGA: And you say that at no stage did you see some strange people that you might have suspected?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I said when we got there we saw people who may have been clerks and those were wearing green clothes who were security guards of the university.

MR NTONGA: Security guards were only about two or more than two?  The university guards wearing the uniform?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: There were two.

MR NTONGA: Okay, now you have left the Mr Pama and the security and the other man, that is the other policeman, has gone somewhere, and you are talking to the second security man asking about the position of the doors whether to shut them or not.  Were you having your back to them, that Mr at security, the first one and the policeman or were you in a position to see them when you were going towards this door that you wanted to close down?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: May I request that the question please be repeated?

MR NTONGA: Okay, on your way to the second security guard having left Mr Pama behind with the first guard were they at your back side or front or at a position or angle where you could still see them or they could not see them at all?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I could not see them because it was kind of a half circle at the last room and when I left them going to the security guard I could not have seen them.

MR NTONGA: I see and you say that exactly when and what were you doing when you heard the first gunshot?

UNKNOWN: Sorry what's the translation please?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I was going to close the doors.

MR NTONGA: I know you were going to close the door but can you give us a description, were you at the time you were jumping over a chair or ready to jump the chair or make for the door, when you heard the first shot, if you can remember?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I jumped over a chair before the shooting happened.  When I was now putting down my second leg down I heard the two shots facing to the back.

MR NTONGA: Are you saying that you heard the two shots at your back - from your back ...[inaudible] facing the back -the shot from your back?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I mean the doors were at the back upstairs.  I was going that way and the bullets or the ringing of the bullets was at the back.

MR NTONGA: I understand you now.  When you heard the first shot what was your reaction?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: When I heard the two first bullets I realised that we're being shot at.  I drew my pistol - as I was drawing that pistol I heard a barrage of bullets behind me.  As I was turning around trying to respond to this person who was this side, who had this khaki cap drawn into his face, with this khaki jacket and a striped pair of trousers.  It was as if I had a very strong injection and I was then dizzy kind of and then I fell.

MR NTONGA: Okay, are you saying to the Commission that you only drew your firearm after the two shots not before the last shot after the first one?  Only after the two shots?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I drew my gun after hearing those two first shots.  When I was then drawing this gun I heard other shots into my body and I shot into the air or into the roof.

MR NTONGA: So after hearing two shots, you drew your gun and you were hit as you say is something like a doctor's injection.  Where were you hit on your body?  The first injury you received?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I was hit by three bullets in my leg, I could not calculate.

MR NTONGA: Okay, after the first injury, the one like a doctor, were you still trying to bring your gun into play?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I drew this gun when I heard these two shots and on my drawing this gun, I heard - I felt this shots against my body.

MR NTONGA: Okay.
ADV. GCABASHE: Could I - sorry can I just ask a quick question.  The injuries you sustained, you sustained on your right thigh, you're indicating your right thigh as you sit here next to me, is that correct?