Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-16

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Cholota, you said in answer to your counsel, that you didn't raise this question at the Court, because you thought if you said you were a comrade you would get a heavier sentence. If you remember telling us that.

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I remember.

JUDGE WILSON: But it was raised at the trial before your sentence that you were working with the ANC, wasn't it?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That I was working with the ANC? Yes, it appeared in the trial.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, so there was no question of concealing the fact. So why did you say you couldn't tell the Court that you were doing this as a comrade because you would get a heavier sentence, when the Court was told you were one?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: The Court knew already that I was working with the ANC, but I didn't want the Court to consider this matter as a political matter, because it took place at the Tavern. I capitalised on the issues that happened at the Tavern and I thought they would just take it as an offence not politically motivated.

ADV DE JAGER: You said he killed a comrade previously.

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And was that the reason why you said you assaulted him?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That is the reason.

ADV DE JAGER: So wasn't it a matter of taking revenge because he killed a comrade?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: No, it wasn't a revenge as such. We were actually showing his gang that we were against their actions.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was the leader of this gang?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: The leader was known as Noxie Sekete.

ADV DE JAGER: How do you know that Plaatjies was a member of the gang?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I was given a report at the ANC offices.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they give you the names of all the gang members?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I have three names with me and I don't have other members.

ADV DE JAGER: I assume it was Noxie and then this one and the other one?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: The other one is Tsietse.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you do anything to Tsietse?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: We have never done anything to Tsietse. There was nothing really happening to him.

ADV DE JAGER: But wasn't your instructions to act against him too?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: No, such an instruction was not taken out, but I gave an instruction that wherever they are seen they should be assaulted.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: This looks more like a private fight between individuals. You fight with fists, you throw one another onto the ground and the only people in the end involved, seemed to have been your brother, and Mr Thaobala.

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: The fight was not between myself and him only. At the time I was fighting him, it was discovered that people were chased at the Tavern and Thaobala was also involved in fighting, and my brother too, my younger brother was also involved in that fighting. I can't say it was a fight between just two people. It was a fight between a group of people.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Who chased the other people away, the other comrades away?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: William Thaobala chased Phulu Maolosi, Fanie and them chased Jack Maolosi's younger brother, and Cholota was fighting another group nearby.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What sort of group was that?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: It was discovered that it was the younger brother to Phule Maolosi and his friends and I don't know their names. And those people who were together with the deceased.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: And these other people were they gang members or weren't they gang members? Were they ordinary members of the public visiting the Tavern?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: Simon Malusi was one of our targets. Lucky was a member of the gang and the rest were their friends.

ADV DE JAGER: But they weren't gang members?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: No, they were not members of the gang.

ADV DE JAGER: So this turned out to be a brawl in the long end and it wasn't anything political?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: No, that is not the situation. I think these people were also retaliating, that is why we were engaged in a fight.

JUDGE WILSON: Am I correct in saying you went in to the Tavern for the second time and got involved in a fight with Maolosi.

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I fought with Maolosi on my second return.

JUDGE WILSON: And when that fight got broken up you then stood up and got fighting with the deceased.

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: The deceased came in when I was on the ground fighting with Maolosi and he came in.

JUDGE WILSON: Now Maolosi was not a policeman, was he?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: He was a prison warder.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, and they are not usually armed, are they?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I once saw Maolosi with a firearm.

JUDGE WILSON: Are prison warders usually armed?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I don't think all of them are always armed, but I think those who want to have arms they get arms.

JUDGE WILSON: So Maolosi was a special target picked by you?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you say while you were fighting him, the deceased came in.

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: When we were battling on the ground, the deceased came in and he had a bottle in his hand, he was going to hit me with this bottle.

JUDGE WILSON: What do you mean he came in? Do you mean he intervened in the fight or he came into the Tavern?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: He came in the fight, he was involved in the fight.

JUDGE WILSON: He didn't come into the Tavern, when you say he came in, you don't mean he came into the Tavern, he was there already. Is that the position?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And then you got into a fight with him.

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And he was hit with stones?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: He was hitting me with stones and I was hitting him with stones.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, and the Court found that when he was lying helpless on the ground you were hitting him with stones, didn't it?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: No, I hit him with a stone and he fell and William approached, he took me with, we left.

JUDGE WILSON: You see, I read from the judgment - you say the Court didn't find this, but what the Judge said was, it is in Afrikaans
"The fact that the deceased didn't die as a result of the attack on him with bricks, whilst he was lying helplessly on the ground, it was not as a result of any action on the part of those people. The possibility shows unequivocally to that they stopped with their bombarding of him, because they were of the opinion that the deceased at that stage, was, already for all practical purposes, dead."
Do you remember the Judge telling you that?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: No, what I remember is we hit each other with stones until I hit him and he fell. What happened thereafter I do not know.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you saying you don't remember this being said in court when you were sentenced?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I remember this was said in court.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes. And was Maolosi hit with stones?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I won't say he was hit with stones because I never followed him, I was left behind.

JUDGE WILSON: Was it Thoabala, your co-applicant who followed him and ran after him?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And did he flee from the Tavern?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That was what I was told.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you. Any further questions?

ADV THSONGWENI: Mr Cholota, how many members of the SDU were with you at that time?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: We were about eight or nine in number.

UNKNOWN: At the time of the fight, what were the other members of the SDU doing?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: As I was fighting everybody else was fighting. I was fighting with Plaatjies on the other hand, Fanie was fighting his group, Simon Cholota was fighting with the other group and William was chasing Maolosi.

UNKNOWN: When you say everybody was fighting at that time, do you mean every member of SDU that were with you, were fighting?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: That is what I mean.