Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next?

MR SAMUELS: I call Kifuwe Michael Nhlapo.  On page 2, it's the last name of the list applicant 7303, page 187 of Volume 2.

CHAIRPERSON: What number?

MR SAMUELS: 7303/97.

ADV MOTATA: May you assist me with the page once more please?

MR SAMUELS: Page 187, Volume 2.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you prefer to use?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Zulu.

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: (sworn states)

MR SAMUELS: Mr Nhlapo, are you 22 years old?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: And are you a member of the ANC?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: And during the early 1990's you were a member of the self defence units in Thokoza, is that correct?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Who was your commander?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It was Ben Mashinini.

MR SAMUELS: You are applying for four offences, murder, attempted murder, kidnapping and possession of a firearm, is that correct?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Now the kidnapping, who gave the instructions a kidnapping?

CHAIRPERSON: No we don't know if there were instructions.

MR SAMUELS: Did anybody give you instructions to carry out these events or acts?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes there is someone.

MR SAMUELS: Who instructed you?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It was Ben Mashinini.

MR SAMUELS: Now the kidnapping, what did he tell you to do?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: He told us to go and look for Sibongele.

MR SAMUELS: Right, describe in your own words what happened?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: We left the danger zone, taken the direction of Extension 5, looking for Sibongele.  We found her there, we tried to bring her back.  She struggle, we forced her.  We first started at her place.  There was another lady who was there.  We took that lady with, we went back to the danger zone.  When we arrived there I was standing outside and myself
and Joseph ...(intervention)

MR SAMUELS: When you say you arrived there, where did you arrive?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: There was a house that was vandalised.

MR SAMUELS: What house was that?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It was at Section F.

MR SAMUELS: Continue, you said we arrived there, who is we?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It was myself, Joseph, it was Jabu, Mdmase, Maseven, Mavi and M'Afrika.

MR SAMUELS: Were there other people as well?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes there were other peoples but I cannot remember their names.

MR SAMUELS: When you got to this house describe what happened?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Mdmase came, got into the house and with these ladies who were standing outside, we were waiting, we were waiting there to see the police.  We were safeguarding the place, I don't know what happened inside the place.

ADV MOTATA: If you could just take it slowly, the interpreters can't keep pace with you.  If you could slow down a little please?

MR SAMUELS: You say you were standing outside the house, continue?

MR SAMUELS: We were standing outside, myself and Joseph and the others went into the house.  When they went into the house they were supposed to shoot Sibongele and her sister.  As we were waiting outside, nothing happened.  As time went on the ...(inaudible) came out of the house running and he said nothing.  When he left the house I saw M'Afrika leaving the house also.  After some time Jabu came also.  Jabu asked me if the job was done already in the house.  I told Jabu that I had nothing since I've been standing there but nothing happened and Jabu got into the house also.

ADV DE JAGER: But I understood you now to say you were standing outside the house with Joseph, is that correct?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: After a while Doctor came running out of the house, is that correct?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And after a further while M'Africa also came out of the house

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And a little later Jabu came out of the house?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Jabu came from another direction.  He got into the house, I heard that they were arguing inside.  We were then standing next to the door, we could hear that he was arguing with them and he told them that they were not actually doing what they were told and I don't know what is that they were doing.  We heard a first gunshot and after some time two shots rang again and the last one and Jabu left the house.

MR SAMUELS: ...(inaudible) when he left the house?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: When he left the house he told Mdmase to finish up the job because his bullets were finished at the time.

MR SAMUELS: And where did Jabu go?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Jabu took the same direction that he came from.

MR SAMUELS: What happened?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: After some time I heard a gunshot from the AK47 and one lady came out of the house, I don't know which one was it between the two ladies and she ran away and when she was running away I shot.

MR SAMUELS: You say you shot?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: How many times?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Two times.

MR SAMUELS: What weapon did you have?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It was a pistol.

MR SAMUELS: Okay, you shot at her, did she fall down?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: No she did not fall.

CHAIRPERSON: Then this lady that you shot at was that one of the two ladies that had been kidnapped?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure?  Are you sure?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes I'm sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you saw this lady, was she full of blood or what?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: I did not see because it was dark, it was in the evening.

MR SAMUELS: Now you say this lady didn't fall, what happened to her?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: We chased her, we brought her back to the house and he was shot at in the house.  It was myself and the other comrades that were there.

MR SAMUELS: You say you chased her and you ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last words of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat what you said?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: We brought her back to the house and I must had took her to the house and we left the place and I must have shot her and she came back to us and she told us that the job was done and we left the scene.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you, that's the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

CHAIRPERSON: When the lady was brought back to the house after escaping, did you go into the house or did you still stay outside.

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: We waited outside because we knew that some people would be standing outside and the others were to be inside so we planned that I would be standing outside.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of you standing outside?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: I was watching for in case the police - I was watching for in case one of them tried to run away and the police also.

MR SWANEPOEL: Can I just make sure, who gave you the instructions to go and fetch Sigongele?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It was Ben Mashinini.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now on page 192 of the bundle where your application is bound, paragraph 11(b) or 11 in general or 11(b) specifically, you state that it was done on order of commander Extension 2, was that Ben?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct, but the one that is stated here is not Ben.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now who is he?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Here they are talking about Meneer.

MR SWANEPOEL: Who was he?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Meneer was just a commander, not full time commander, he was just assisting Ben but the person who would give us correct instructions was Ben.

ADV MOTATA: When you mean the person stated here, who filled in this application form?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: I'm the one who requested for this form but I did not mention Meneer's name.