Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR WILLIAMS: Now Gakkie, as you testified earlier on you know about a lot of things that happened in the community, people talk about it or they come to you personally and share it with you.  If Clive and Erwin and Mzoli, or Ismail, were involved with the CCB, would you have known about it?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I believe if they were involved they would have told me: "Look Gakkie, we're involved with these things again."

MR WILLIAMS: So according to your own personal knowledge you and Peaches were the only people who were constantly involved in the CCB?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, this is how I see it.

MR WILLIAMS: No-one else was involved?  Are you sure about it?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say about the other people because I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: But if you knew would you have told the Committee?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, if I knew this and this person was involved and this one went there and this one went to the other side, I would have known and I would have told them about it.

MR WILLIAMS: So your evidence in this regard is a hundred percent, you do not know if any other of the members were involved?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot go and talk about people I do not know of.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Chairperson, this question is asked over and over again ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think he's made it clear that he's only aware of himself and Peaches as having been involved.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	So if any of the other applicants will come to the Committee and say that you said that they must not make use of Ismail, that he's unreliable and that he talks to the community, then that evidence will be false?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know who was with, I cannot say, I cannot deny it.  I do not even know who he is.

MR WILLIAMS: There's evidence on record that you said, that you told Slang that they must not make use of Ismail.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, Mr Petersen I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: But do you say that Slang's evidence in this regard is false?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know, I do not know what Mr van Zyl said.  I cannot recall if Ismail - let me call him Mzoli, if he worked for the CCB or if I told Van Zyl not to trust Mzoli, I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: So if Slang would come to say this, then it's false?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'm not saying it's false.

MR WILLIAMS: The second-last aspect.  Gakkie, you've already said to this Committee that you spoke to Zenzile them, you did not know that they recorded you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I understand, I did talk to them.

MR WILLIAMS: And you told them certain things concerning CCB matters, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, Mr Williams.  I will repeat myself, I wanted to get those people away from me because I did not trust them, I told them anything just so that they can say yes, okay, it's over.  I told him myself these things I'm saying just because I don't want you here anymore.  They came three times to my place and I chased them away and I told them: "I want nothing to do with you."

MR WILLIAMS: No, did you at any stage tell Zenzile that Jackie Lonti offered you R20 000 and a Grenada to kill Peaches?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, never.

MR WILLIAMS: The question is, did you at any stage tell Zenzile this?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall  what I told him, Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: But on page 162 of bundle B, this deals with the interview that you had with Zenzile and Mr Petersen and there it states
"HARDIEN:  There is nothing that he can deny or argue about because he personally, who is Jackie, offered me R20 000 and a Grenada if I kill Peaches.  The person who killed Peaches came to pick me up.  He also came from my hands."
Did you make that to Zenzile?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, not at all, I cannot recall that I told him that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the tapes are available if you want to listen.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I understand he taped me.  I don't know.  I want the Committee to know that all these things that I spoke about was because I just did not want them near me anymore.  There was a time when he worked for a radio station where he came to interview me, so I did not trust them.

MR LAX: Ja, but you're saying you didn't tell him that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: You've told us now that you never said such a thing to him.  The Chairperson has just told you that the tapes of this conversation, from which this transcript was made, are available if you want to hear them.  Are you saying this is not a true reflection of that conversation?

ISGAK HARDIEN: What I am saying Sir, is that we did have a discussion and if I said these things I will not argue it or deny it, because I just wanted them away from me.  I'm not going to deny it, deny what the tape says.  I will not deny it, because I know that I spoke to him.

MR LAX: Well that's different to what you said earlier, but we'll accept that answer for the time being.  But then you're saying it was just a lot of lies?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, my second-last question is, what is your impression now of various former members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, that they became someone, that they turned out good in comparison to a lot of people in Kewtown area or community?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I feel very proud, you are a person from Kewtown, you're an attorney, same with Oesman and Bruce Malgas has got a very good job.  I cannot talk about Chris Ferndale, because he's not from Kewtown, but they all have good jobs.  Even your people, the same with Oesman, Oesman's mother, Bruce's mother feel proud because you came out at the top.  Despite our differences I can now brag about you and I can say: "Lawyer? Yes, he's from Kewtown."  Or Bruce who is in a position, I can say: "Yes, he's from Kewtown, we play soccer together."  I cannot say anything bad although we've got out differences.  I will give him his dues.  If he's good he's good.  Although we hate each other, if he's good he's good.  It does not deter anything from it.

MR WILLIAMS: Well my last question to you is, if you had regret, the fact that you planted the bomb, and  you said yes.  Is there maybe a reason that you can give now why you are regretful planting the bomb there?  This is my last questions.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, to now come and tell the Committee: "I'm so sorry I planted the bomb", is ridiculous.  I did it, everybody knows that I did it.  I'm not glad that I did it or happy about it, maybe then I was, but this is a new South Africa, we can walk hand in hand, we can go on jols together, we can ecstasy together.  So to go and say now: "Oesman, sorry, Bruce, I'm sorry", no I will not, for what?  I will say sorry to show the crowd - actually I know I did something wrong, I asked the Lord to forgive me.  Maybe they will come to me and say: "Now Gakkie, we forgive you."  I know they will not forgive me, so why would I ask them?  If you really want to forgive me, then we can talk like I talked to Mr Williams.  I can come to your office anytime and say: "Mr Williams, I've got a problem, can you assist me", and you will not close your door.  Because there's a time when myself and Bruce fought on the soccer field, I cannot take this away from him.  Mr Williams is now a new-born Christian, so I accept I can ask forgiveness from Mr Williams, because I know his heart is in the right place in terms of his Christianity, but mine is not.