Human Rights Violation Hearings — Leandra — 1997-06-03

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Is it possible and maybe I should address myself to Mr Simelane, but while you are here at the moment, that we get more information on his sources, because all the statements of the police that you have also copied us with refer only to the single car.  They do not refer even to a second car in the operations.  So if we can pursue this with the statement taker just after the hearing it will help us a lot if we are to investigate anything further.  That also goes then specifically for Mr Vaku Sezankakona which you referred to who clearly in terms of the evidence was perceived to be a member of MK ...

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Yes.

MR MALAN: ... in fact is now a Colonel in the SANDF according to your statement, but all this information comes only from your statement and you quote as your sole source your uncle.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Yes.

MR MALAN: So if we can pursue that we will be appreciative of it.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can I just recap Molokoane.  Are we saying that these people died in a skirmish with the SADF as compared to what happened to Nokuthula who was detained, tortured and, you know, died in the manner she did.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: I do not understand the question.  Can you rephrase it?

THOMAS MANTHATA: My question is did these three die in a semi-combat with the police or were they detained, ...

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: I see.

THOMAS MANTHATA: ... tortured ...

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Okay.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You know.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Okay.  No, they apparently, from what read from the newspaper, you see, we are getting a different version from time to time, but it is for you to, you know, to deduce which way, you know, you find it sensible.  I will start from the beginning when they sabotaged Secunda.  Barney, Mathew Simelane being the uncle happened to know Barney, because Mathew Simelane was raised by my mum.  So now Barney being in exile happened to know Bethal as his uncle's place.  From time to time when he would jump the border, come this side for whatever mission he would always worry my uncle.  There I want to put it clearly.  It does not mean my uncle was then a terrorist, whatever, he was merely harbouring his nephew who just pounced on him with these six guys driving those vans of theirs.  Now he would harbour them there, Mishane, but he would also caution Mishane, you are putting me into a hell of a quandary, you are putting me into a dilemma.  So he would harbour them in that way.  So hence he happened to know these guys, how many they were.  That is why now and I am coming to this thing that these guys were travelling in two cars.  I believe that they were travelling in two cars.  That is what he told me.  So where I have a problem is when the other vehicle could make it from, all the way from Bethal and then it goes straight into Swaziland with Vaku inside, being a soldier.  I do not know the all the nitty grittys of being a soldier when other soldiers are fighting, can you run away.  I do not know about that.  How he broke away I do not know, but what I cannot really, really rest until I get an explanation is how did he break away from Barney.  That is why I am saying maybe ANC can clarify that to us, but we are asking questions.
 Now, in the report that I got from Middleburg the people that, as Priscilla Jana was probing this case, there is a report where the first security man, a certain Mr Botha, says I saw this bakkie and then I overtook this bakkie and then I flagged that bakkie must stop.  Then whilst I was a couple, I was in few metres away he slowed down, this bakkie where Barney was.  Then they shot at him.  Just there Barney's vehicle just decided to turn backward.  I do not know either going back from the way it came from.  Then it fell into a ditch and these guys got out and tried to walk.  Then the police, I do not know, he rallied around for support from the, some of, a farmer there.  So then they came now in, they phone all different regiments or Alice there in the neighbourhood to come and pounce on Barney and them.  So what I am saying is it is either these guys.  They knew that Barney would be coming, because cops, this man is a dangerous man.  They were really, really looking for him.  I have a suspicion that there is foul play in my brother's death up until I get clarification.

THOMAS MANTHATA: If I understand you well, because all what I wanted to know is were they detained.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: No, they were never detained, they were never arrested.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Fine.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: They just died on that spot.

THOMAS MANTHATA: That is all I wanted.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Yes.  Mrs, yes, what do we know about the family of Vincent?

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Okay, alright fine, okay.  Vincent, okay, because, you know, since they died everything that I was pursuing with Priscilla Jana, I did it on the basis of three.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Okay.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: That is why now I ...

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can I just arrest you there.  What I want to know is are you saying that Vincent's family, ...

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: ... all members of his family are dead?

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: No, the father is no more, the mother is no more.  So it is only the uncles and the aunts who are surviving now, yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And he had not married at the time?

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: No.

THOMAS MANTHATA: He was not married at the time?

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Absolutely not.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So in short nobody, nobody has survived except, you know, those uncles and so on, who have survived him.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: I am not so much familiar with that family really, really to be honest with you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: No, fine.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Except just to know a little bit of background about them from their, the other, one sister that we have been running around with.  That is who was now, like, representing Skittis.  I think it is Skittis mother's sister.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Okay.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: That is right, yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Then, Mrs Kayana, what is the position of your daughter-in-law, that is the mother to the children of Victor?

MRS KAYANA: She stays in a shack.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And she was not willing or even able to give a statement to the TRC?

MRS KAYANA: It is as if she did make a statement to TRC.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I see.

MRS KAYANA: It is just that she requested that seeing that I know far much better about this matter here, I should come and give the statement and give evidence.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Then you talk about Donald.  Donald was a MK too in exile.

MRS KAYANA: Donald was an ANC member in exile.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And he died in exile?

MRS KAYANA: Yes, he died in exile.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I see.

MRS KAYANA: It seems as if he had a wound at the back whilst he was in Swaziland.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Okay.

MRS KAYANA: He had a bullet wound.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I think for that Shell House should be able to shed more light, because it seems to have, as it has been pointed out, they have a committee much as it may be ineffective, but there are people who are fulltime on the members of MK who died both in exile and inside.  Would you say, Mrs Kayana, that the children of Victor, are they still of school going age?

MRS KAYANA: There are two who are still of school going age.  They are still in school, but only two still in school.  Others are old now.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.  No further questions.