Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

HENDRIK LEEUW: (sworn states)

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Leeuw, at the time of the arrest, where were you residing?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I would prefer to give my testimony in Sesotho.

ADV MTHEMBU: My question was at the time of the arrest, where were you residing?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I stayed at Section K, number 337.

ADV MTHEMBU: Now according to a statement handed in by Officer De la Rey, who was a policeman in charge to investigate your matter, he says that there was certain articles that were found at the house of one Lisbeth Ntlana, who apparently is your mother-in-law and these are the following items.  Mr Chairman, the contents of this statement is in Afrikaans, now I am not certain if I should read the articles as they have been numerated in Afrikaans on the document?

CHAIRPERSON: There are translation services, they will translate from Afrikaans into his language, but which paragraph are you actually ...

ADV MTHEMBU: I am going to refer to paragraph 19 Mr Chairman.  May I proceed?  It is page 4, paragraph 19.  Thank you Mr Chairman ... (tape ends) ... and three pairs of earrings, (b) four plastic bank bags, small bank bags containing old foreign golden coins, medallions and change, small change, (c) one plastic bank bag, small bank bag containing R360-00's worth in cash, consisting of two R50-00 notes, 12 R20-00 notes and 2 R10-00 notes, one red pocket knife in a small black bag.  Where was this articles recovered?

HENDRIK LEEUW: They were all recovered at Section K, number 337, they found them at my place where I reside at K Section.

ADV MTHEMBU: What is the number, 3 what?  337.

HENDRIK LEEUW: 337,337, Section K.

ADV MTHEMBU: But the statement says they were found at 496?

HENDRIK LEEUW: These articles were found w here I stay, I do not know about the number you are referring to.

ADV MTHEMBU: Why would then Officer De la Rey contend that these articles were found at 496 E, in stead of 337 K as you now are telling this Committee?

HENDRIK LEEUW: It is because Officer De la Rey stated so so that this case could not be in our favour, they were found at 337.

ADV MTHEMBU: The same page, Mr Chairperson, paragraph 20.

ADV DE JAGER: He was accused 1, is that correct?

ADV MTHEMBU: Number 3, sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Number 3?

TRANSLATOR: 2 is English, can you hear that?  Can you hear 2, 2 for English, nothing?  Can you hear nothing at all on channel 2?  Can you hear anything on channel 2, nothing on channel 2?  Judge Wilson, can you hear on 2?

ADV MTHEMBU: I will refer to the next paragraph, Mr Chairman, paragraph 20.  Mr Leeuw, do you know one Alice Nglakani of 1766, C Section?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, I do know her.

ADV MTHEMBU: What is she to you?

HENDRIK LEEUW: She is my wife.

ADV MTHEMBU: Now in this document, paragraph 20, which reads as follows: "there she handed a blue case back to me containing the following: (1) one blue woman's dress, (2) one khaki ladies skirt, six bags of sweets, one packet of Cornflakes, one packet of Allbran flakes, one green, yellow and brown table covering, one pocket knife with a brown handle, one identity book referring to accused 2, Petrus Nkgwedi, two mens' watches, a silver one engraved on the back Otto J. Fourie, Blyvooruitsigt, 1952, (b) a golden mens' wrist watch engraved on the back presented to P.G.M. (indistinct) after 25 years' service, Rand Mines Group, two womens' wrist watches, one golden hanger, one United cheque number 69 to the amount of R1 200-00 made out in the name of M.H. Leeuw.  Alice in addition handed me a plastic bag containing groceries, the blue carry bag was in her room in a chest of drawers and the other groceries were in the kitchen."  Mr Leeuw, do you have any explanation to give to this Committee?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, I do have.  All of the above mentioned were not found where you stated, they were found at K Section.  There are others that I gave to Petrus and Daniel Magoda, cameras and eight ball point pens and a calculator.  We set them aside, all those that you  mentioned were found at 337, at Section K.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, I couldn't follow.  The others were given to ...?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I gave them to Daniel Magoda.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Leeuw, there is a request from the translators that you should speak at least a little bit louder.  Now, thirdly do you still recall which articles you gave to Mr Magoda?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I do, I can recall those that I gave to Mr Magoda were two plastic - bank plastics which contains coins, bank calculator and a shaver included in those articles.

ADV MTHEMBU: Are you referring to the articles listed on page 5, paragraph 21, which according to this document was "one yellow plastic bag containing one Pentax camera, one grey bag containing an injector ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry, but these were not found from this gentleman.

ADV MTHEMBU: Yes, sir, these articles are those that he says he gave to Mr Magoda.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

ADV MTHEMBU: One small bag for glasses containing a Tedelex calculator, three shaving devices, makes Braun, Hitachi and Remington, one black container containing eight pens, two plastic bank bags containing old and foreign coins.  Are these the items that you say you gave to Mr Magoda?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, they are the articles that I gave to Mr Magoda.

ADV DE JAGER: Could we just have clarity on this - Mr Magoda was he accused 4 at the trial?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was accused 2, who was accused 2?

HENDRIK LEEUW: He was Petrus  Nkgwedi.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he number 2?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, that is correct, he was the second accused.

ADV DE JAGER: Number 1?

MR: LEEUW:	Mishak May.  It was Mishak May.

ADV DE JAGER: And number 3 then would be Hendrik Leeuw.

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, that is so.

ADV MTHEMBU: Now Mr Leeuw what was the purpose of separating these articles?  Why weren't they kept in one place?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The purpose of separating these articles was that the police should not confiscate these articles at my place, we have to separate them in three groups.  Some were left in the car with Mishak May, some were left with me so that when our Commander arrives, I give them to him.

JUDGE WILSON: But it was separated now amongst all of you, so you couldn't just give it to him, you would have to go and collect it from all the others, wouldn't you?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We could not do so because I was the one who separated all those articles.  Some of them were with me.

JUDGE WILSON: And the others were with the other people, so you couldn't give them all to your Commander, could you?

HENDRIK LEEUW: There are those that I handed to Daniel Magoda, so that I could get them from Magoda and then thereafter sell the coins so that we get the money before the Commander arrives.

ADV DE JAGER: When did you expect the Commander, on what date?

ADV MTHEMBU: The Commander didn't set a specific date when he will arrive.  He just mentioned that he would arrive after we have completed the mission so that I can hand over the articles to him and then hand him the money or - that we recovered (indistinct)

JUDGE WILSON: And ten days later he still hadn't arrived, is that correct?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We were arrested after two days.

JUDGE WILSON: But the goods weren't found until the 13th, were they?

HENDRIK LEEUW: That's true.

JUDGE WILSON: So he hadn't gone around, the Commander hadn't gone around to your houses to collect the stuff that you say was waiting for him or to where you  lived?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, he knew where I was staying, but he didn't know where others were staying.

ADV MTHEMBU: With regard to the motor vehicle, do you have any explanation to make?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, I have an explanation.  As I have explained before, we took the car, we were supposed to sell the car either in Swaziland or Lesotho so that we can take the money to the Commander, so that we will help the APLA army  to continue with their objective.