Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-14

MR MBANDAZAYO: You've told the Committee that you were told about the target by comrade Xomiso and now can you tell the Committee what was your position regarding the attack at the Yellowwoods yourself?  What was your attitude regarding the attack at Yellowwoods, putting aside the order that was given by comrade Xomiso as you indicated?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: As an APLA combatant I always asked myself why I was not sent to an operation area.  It was good and noble to fight for our country, I was eager to join the struggle.  I was given an order and mine was to obey and make sure that the order is carried out.  I was proud of what I was doing, I was a soldier and a politician.
	Everybody knows that the white man was the oppressor in this country.  A lot of Africans lost their lives through the white man.  I hope you do not perceive this as being racist, I am racist, the PAC is not racist.  However the oppressors in this country were white.  I was proud to take part in the struggle to fight oppression.
	Oppression doesn't just come naturally, it is people who choose to oppress.  I was proud to receive orders and I was proud to carry them out.  I endeavoured to make sure that orders are carried out.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair, just one question.
	Mr Madasi, in paragraph 10 you say you were accommodated at Mdantsane at comrade Law's place, was Mlungisi or Diamoneng together with you at Mdantsane or not?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There were just three of us there, myself, Mlungisi and Nxeba.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Madasi, you said you were the commander of this particular operation, when did you arrive in the area to engage or to ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I can't really be sure, it's been a while.  It was 1993 though but I wouldn't know which month or day it was.

UNKNOWN: Well we know that when Mr Jerling was killed in the bar at the Yellowwoods Hotel, that was on the, I think the 20th of March 1993, you had come to the area a little while before that had you not?  Can you maybe tell us or tell the Committee, was it a month before the operation or was it a week before, what is your recollection?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I'm not sure.  I don't want to say a month or guess, it wasn't too long a time but it was at the beginning of 1993.  I can't remember the date.

UNKNOWN: Did you or were you together with the group that took a taxi, I think it was a kombi type vehicle, it was a Mazda Marathon?  I'm referring to page 31 and particularly page 33: Mr Tandisili Vena's vehicle from the Fort Beaufort taxi rank, do you remember that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was a taxi rank in Alice I think because we were in Alice not Fort Beaufort.

UNKNOWN: Do you remember that Mazda Marathon, it's a kombi type vehicle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I do remember it.

UNKNOWN: I'm referring to page 31 of the papers, of the bundle.  Mr Vena made a statement reporting the theft or robbery of the vehicle and he says that was on a Friday the 12th of March 1992, that obviously is incorrect, it was '93.  It appears to be a week before the actual attack on the hotel, would that coincide with your recollection?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't follow you, I'm a bit confused.

UNKNOWN: Look Mr Madasi please, don't get confused, the question is very simple.  A week before on the 12th of March 1993, were you involved in the theft of a Mazda Marathon?  You actually said it was the Alice taxi rank and not the Fort Beaufort taxi rank.  Were you involved in the removal of that vehicle from the owner, that's the question?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I said that comrade Nxeba, comrade Mlungisi, Sky, they were the ones who went and got the car, Diesel and I were waiting for them.  I've already said this.

UNKNOWN: Did you at some stage enter into that vehicle?

MR LAX: Sorry the questions was, did you enter into that vehicle?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR LAX: Just for the interpreter's sake, nothing to do with Ntintili.

UNKNOWN: Did you at any stage on that evening when the vehicle was removed from the owner's possession, did you enter or board that vehicle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: This is the car that we were meant to use to the operation.  The comrades brought the car and I got into the car.  I did get into the car.

UNKNOWN: Where was the owner of the vehicle at that stage, when you entered the vehicle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was not there when the car was taken from the owner, it is the other comrades who brought the car to us, to Diesel and I.

UNKNOWN: Did you instruct your comrades to go and fetch that vehicle or to fetch a vehicle to be used in the operation on that evening?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I did so.

UNKNOWN: Were your instructions that the vehicle had to be removed from the owner by force?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was a war, a battle.  We expected contribution from the other Africans as they were also oppressed, they know they were oppressed.  You talk to the person, you tell them the reasons why you need their car.  I know that they never injured the man.  It showed that they did well to contribute into the struggle.

UNKNOWN: Did you instruct them to use force to obtain the vehicle, yes or no?  That would suffice.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I instructed them to go and get the car, I did not stipulate whether they should take it by force or talk to the people.

UNKNOWN: What was your instruction as the commander of the unit that was going to attack Yellowwood Hotel?  Did you say: "If the owner of the vehicle resist, you must use force", or did you not tell them that?  Or did you tell them: "First try and persuade him to relinquish the vehicle of his own"?  What did you say to them?  Or did you say absolutely nothing to them, was it left to their discretion?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Sir, years have elapsed since the incident and I'm in jail, that affects me psychologically.  I told the comrades to get a car that we'd use in the operation, I did not stipulate and say: "Take it by force or talk to the people".  I just said to them that we need a car to carry out the operation, that's the order I gave.  I hope I've answered you.

UNKNOWN: Now, how long before that incident with the Mazda Marathon motor vehicle of Mr Vena, had you gone to the hotel to reconnoitre the area?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: You've asked two questions, please ask me one question at a time.

UNKNOWN: How long before the incident that you've now just answered about the motor vehicle - we know that happened on the 12th of March, how long before that did you go and look at the hotel where you were going to launch an attack on - as you say, security policemen who attended there?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the question?

UNKNOWN: How long before the 12th of March, the date which we know from the statement of Mr Vena, you took the Mazda Marathon, that was the kombi type vehicle, how long before that date, was it a week, two weeks, a month, that you went to look at the hotel where you were going to launch an attack?  Do you understand the question?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Are you saying that - are you asking whether it was a week before we went there or what?

UNKNOWN: I'm asking you, can you give us an estimation of how long before the vehicle incident, that's the theft of the first vehicle, that you had gone to the Yellowwoods Hotel?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Mr Prior, a lot of time has elapsed, I can't give you dates and months.  I'm going to have problems with giving you specific times, I would not be telling the truth if I said so.  I'm not sure how much time had elapsed, I can't speculate.