Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: You received a petrol allowance of 18c per kilometre, or 19c, you used both amounts?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: You received a pension in the amount of R800-00 per month, which was paid in advance, so basically when you  started you received R9 600-00 in respect of a pension?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the Police Pension?

MR WILLIAMS: Maybe the witness can answer.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Commissioner, how can the witness answer if we don't know exactly what the question is?  Is it the Police Pension, in other words when he left the Police Force, was his pension lump sum paid out, I don't understand the question?

MR WILLIAMS: No, no, maybe I should just clarify that.  You received R9 600-00 from the CCB in respect of pension annuity or something?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: There was a Pension Fund, there wasn't a Pension Fund because we were the civil part of the Defence Force, and we did not resort under the Defence Force's Pension Fund, so there were annuities paid out to us, that the Defence Force paid for, and this was a couple of hundred rand  per month.

MR WILLIAMS: In one of your statements you say that it amounted to R800-00 per month, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: In addition, you received a telephone allowance?  Is that so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: You also say in your statement, Bundle A, page 80, that your medical costs were paid.  Now, can you just explain to us, did you receive Medical Aid, or allowance for Medical Aid or did you receive, or were you reimbursed for what medical costs you incurred?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, that is how it worked.

MR WILLIAMS: I am asking you ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: If we had medical expenses, we paid for it, after which the Defence Force reimbursed us.

MR WILLIAMS: You also say that the CCB enabled you to obtain a housing loan, can you  just clarify that for us?  First tell us, is that so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Well, they enabled me to obtain a housing loan, in that they gave me a letter to say this is my salary, etc.   The bank accepted said letter as security.

MR WILLIAMS: So they didn't give you, say for example R10 000-00, any money ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: A housing subsidy to assist you in your bond repayments?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.  No Mr Chairperson, not that I know of.  The advantages that we got in the Defence Force, was to a great degree the same as what we had in the Police.

MR WILLIAMS: And then you also say that you received a production bonus in May 1999, in the amount of R3 000-00?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it would have been 1999, Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Sorry, in 1989?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, in Bundle B, page 16 you have said that
"... every member's production was measured the amount of priority projects that had been executed successfully."
	Is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you explain that to us?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is quite simple, it is obvious, if you had a project and you completed the project successfully, then at the end of, or at a certain time, you would have been recommended for a production bonus over and above your salary that you were earning.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you get that bonus in the Police as well?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Was the amount in terms of that bonus, fixed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Was the amount directly dependent on the nature of the projects that had been completed successfully?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know what the criteria were for determining the bonus.  We were told that we would qualify for it, how they would arrive at an amount, I cannot say.

MR WILLIAMS: You used the word, you used the words "priority projects successfully completed", now what do you mean with priority projects?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: What I think we can understand with this is that certain projects were classified in certain priority classifications and your top priority cases were cases where people had to be eliminated.  Things that did not enjoy such high priority is for example where someone would have to be intimidated.

CHAIRPERSON: In your case, Mr van Zyl, just to get this clear about this production bonus, did everybody in the CCB get a production bonus because some projects were successfully completed no matter by who, or did you only get a production bonus in respect of projects successfully completed by yourself?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.  I understood it that we would qualify for a production bonus only relating the projects that I myself, were involved with.  So where I delivered a service.

CHAIRPERSON: So by May 1989 when you got your production service, what projects had you completed?  Had you completed any projects by that early stage?

MR WILLIAMS: I think you are pre-empting my questions Mr Chairperson, that was one of the questions that I was going to ask?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I have given evidence regarding this, all the projects that I have been involved, I have given evidence to.  The only conclusion to be made from this is the minibus incident that I have given evidence to and the other projects that I was busy with at that stage, specifically the Omar project.

MR WILLIAMS: Now just the amount of the production bonus per project, can I assume that one would be paid more for example for killing Min Omar, than you would be paid for destroying the kombi or intimidating someone?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think that is a good assumption to be made.

MR WILLIAMS: So if you were paid R3 000-00 for burning a kombi, which in fact wasn't burnt, can one assume then that you would have been paid significantly more if the projects on Mr Omar and other people, were successfully completed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I believe so.

MR WILLIAMS: So do you agree with me that there was quite a significant incentive for people to join the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The salary and the benefits that I enjoined in the CCB, were better than what I had enjoyed in the South African Police, but I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: Would you have joined - do you want to complete what you are busy with?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I mean it was a career decision that we had made after I had decided to retire from the South African Police and go to the Defence Force, but I did not join the Defence Force with the idea to become a millionaire because I knew that the structure did not allow me to do this.

MR WILLIAMS: Would you have joined the CCB ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, it is quite clear from the evidence that the financial benefits were better in the CCB than it was in the Police.

MR WILLIAMS: Would you have joined the CCB if the benefits that you received in the SAP, were the same, if the benefits were the same, would you have joined the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think my circumstances at that stage allowed me to join the CCB, so yes, I still would have done it.

MR WILLIAMS: In answer to a question posed by Adv Kahanovitz, you said that your decision to join the CCB was a business decision, do you recall that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I said it was a career decision.

MR WILLIAMS: You used the words "business decision"?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It may be.

MR WILLIAMS: Was it a business decision?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I received a better salary, see it as a business decision then, sir.  I had undergone a career change as you probably have done in your life, and I didn't see anything wrong with that.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, while we are busy with money matters, I just want to ask a couple of other questions.  When you completed the project on the Early Learning Centre, and you received R25 000-00 from Mr Staal Burger and you were informed by him that he was retaining the R5 000-00 for himself, was that proper?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: If he kept the money for himself as he told me, it was naturally not improper, but I do not know what he did with the money.