Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR HUGO: No, Mr Chairman, that's exactly the point.  Mr Radebe says that Mr Nofomela wasn't in the vehicle, Mr Radebe was the driver.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR HUGO: Mr Nofomela, Mr Radebe then says that they stopped this kombi at - stopped with this kombi at the entrance to Chesterville, Mr Radebe then got into the car that was driven by Mr Nortje and his recollection is most probably also Mr Steve Bosch and Vermeulen and they went to a police station or a Defence Force base in Chesterville, to ask about information about activities by the so-called comrades.  Can you remember anything about that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I don't know anything about that, that is his statement.

MR HUGO: Then Mr Radebe will say that they were given certain information, which I'm not going to ask you about or put it to you, in that you don't know about that.  When they got back from the Defence Force base or police station, they then obtained weapons from Mr Willie Nortje and these weapons were then loaded into - well loaded from Mr Nortje's vehicle into the kombi for the first time.  Can you remember that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I never - I did not see that happening.

MR HUGO: And he says the weaponry or the weapons that were given to them were amongst other things, was an AK47 and as far as he can remember, handgrenades.  I take it you wouldn't be able to comment on that, in that you didn't see that.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I can comment that he was telling the truth that he was given the AK47 and some firearms, but I cannot say anything about the handgrenades.  The people who were given the firearms were given in front of me, the firearms were not taken into the kombi as he is saying.

MR HUGO: Yes, you see the point is that Mr Radebe says that it would have been very dangerous for them to take the weapons from CR Swart, as you testified, to Chesterville, in that they were not all that well known in the Durban area - if I say "they", the Vlakplaas unit, and they could have been stopped by normal uniformed policemen and they would have been in very serious trouble and that's why it was only given to them in Chesterville.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: On their way back from the shooting, weren't they afraid of being stopped?  What's the difference, because they had their firearms up to the base.  What is the difference?

MR HUGO: Yes, we'll get to that.  You'll recall that Mr de Jager said to you that in your evidence - in your affidavit you said that they drove into Chesterville and you actually testified today that they walked into the area.  Do you remember that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I do remember that.

MR HUGO: Now how far from where you were parked did the incident happen, the shooting incident I'm talking about?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know because I did not go to the place.

MR HUGO: Do you think it would have been safe for them to walk into that area?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, it was dark therefore it was safe.

MR HUGO: Well Mr Radebe will testify that it was a most explosive situation at the time and it would have been very dangerous for them to just go there on foot and he will testify that they drove there in the kombi.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know how was that going to be possible because they were infiltrating the people and then how come that they would choose to use a kombi, a police kombi?   Wasn't that going to create a dangerous situation for them, to take this police kombi, the kombi that it was well known that it belonged to the Police Force?  Wasn't that going to blow up their cover?

MR HUGO: Yes, let's not debate that now, the fact of the matter is you're sure that they went there on foot?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I am still saying that they walked.  It was safer for them to walk as the people who were infiltrating the group and pretending to be the ANC members.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Now Mr Chairman, we have been given a document, I think the heading says "Interview Information", it's the Human Rights Violation protocol, it's marked 2A.  I don't know whether you have been given this document.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right.

MR HUGO: It's a statement by Mr Stanley Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HUGO: Maybe we should just mark this as Exhibit A with your permission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I assume that this is part of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission records.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, yes it is in fact a statement that was made to our HRV Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Hugo, exhibit?

MR HUGO: A.

CHAIRPERSON: A, very well.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now Mr Nofomela, have you got a copy of that document in front of you?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR HUGO: Now it appears that this is a statement from one of the people that were attacked on that evening, or that were in the vicinity.  Now won't you just turn to page - in fact there are two pages, it's page - two pages 3.  I'm looking at the second page, right at the top it starts
"Fetch other comrades who were supposed ..."
Have you got the page in front of you?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR HUGO: And it says there, Mr Dlamini says, and I'm reading two lines from the top
"Later they arrived in the company of two black males and one female.  All three unknown to us."
And won't you just read the next sentence for us?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR HUGO: Mr Nofomela, let me read it to you.  And then he says
"They arrived in a minibus."
What do you say about that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I can see that.

MR HUGO: So who is lying now, Mr Radebe, Mr Dlamini or you?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As far as I can remember they did not drive to the place, I still maintain that.

MR HUGO: So now where does Mr Dlamini get this information from?  Is he lying here?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Perhaps that was another occasion, not during the time of the shooting.

MR HUGO: Ja, Mr - we'll argue that point.  Then Mr Radebe says that after the shooting incident they rushed back into the kombi and they rushed off to meet Nortje and the other white men where they were waiting for them and they then drove back - he's not sure as to whether they first stopped at the Chesterville Police Station or whether they stopped on the way back to CR Swart, where Nortje asked them what had happened and to give him a report as to what took place.  Can you remember that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, Sir.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe will further testify and say that when they arrived at CR Swart, the white members actually went to Mr de Kock and he presumed, where Mr de Kock was sleeping, to report to him whilst he and the other persons that were involved in this operation, the names that we've mentioned to you initially, went to sleep.  What is your reaction to that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I have mentioned already that there's nothing like that.  I cannot comment or add anything on top of that statement.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hugo.  Yes Mr Ramawele, it's back to you.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Nofomela, the issue relating to the river, you being the driver of Mr de Kock, can you just explain to the hearing, when you say you were the driver of Mr de Kock does that mean that you were now solely responsible to drive Mr de Kock only and not participate in any other activity, or what was the position?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That does not necessarily mean that being de Kock's driver I'm supposed to be there driving him, even if Mr de Kock has reached his destination I should do that.  I have mentioned that if I have moved from Pretoria to Durban, that doesn't mean that I was supposed to be with him always.  Whenever I get to a certain place with him I would join a group there until such time that he would instruct me further.