Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, just one aspect.  Mr De Kock, this plot which you later purchased for Willie Nortje, it was quite some time after the incident, correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I didn't purchase the plot for him as such.

MR LAMEY: No, I beg your pardon, the plot which you later gave to him, you didn't purchase it with the objective of giving it to him later?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, I just didn't know what to do with the money.

MR LAMEY: So you bought the plot?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And much later you basically gave it to him as a friendly gesture?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, not only as a friendly gesture, I believed that he deserved it.

MR LAMEY: And that gift or donation which you gave him, had nothing to do with his involvement in any incident as such?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, I never gave money to my members for something which had been done, or somebody that had been shot or assaulted.

MR LAMEY: And he didn't know where the money came from with which you had purchased the plot?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No, not at all.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, do you have any questions arising?

MR MALAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr De Kock, I must just put it to you and stand by the fact that Mr Nieuwoudt, if necessary, would deny that he ever purchased a vehicle or a house on the Gonube River mouth with funds that he had obtained by means of his involvement in certain operations.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, one question, though it is not directly related to this particular sitting, but it is related to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Is it arising out of questions put by us?

MR MAPOMA: Not necessarily, but it arises from the evidence that he gave before.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let's hear it and I will give the others an opportunity to ask questions afterwards.

MR MAPOMA: Mr De Kock, Johan Griebenauw has made an application for what he arranged, that is he arranged that certain Security Policemen who were in Transkei, to be fugitive of justice and be kept at Vlakplaas.  I just want to know whether you know about those Policemen who were kept in Vlakplaas as arranged by Mr Griebenauw?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, in the first place, it was to protect these persons and to safeguard them.  Such persons also could be used at a later date, because they knew the area and they knew people, they had friends and family and by nature of that, one could gather information.  You didn't need anybody to infiltrate because you would already have stable sources on the inside, such as friends and family.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are these questions relevant to this application, they certainly are not arising out of questions put by the panel and I don't know what the relevance is?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, let me withdraw it.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr De Kock, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, is there any further evidence you are going to lead on behalf of your client?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hattingh.  Mr Lamey?
ON RESUMPTION

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, I am ready to proceed with Mr Nortje, thank you.  I call him to the witness chair.
W.A. NORTJE: (sworn states)

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nortje elects to testify in Afrikaans, if it would please you, thank you.  Mr Nortje, you apply for amnesty for several incidents where the facts which arise from those incidents, and for this purpose you handed in an application for amnesty before this Committee before the closing date which was correct, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Would you please have a look at pages 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 of the Bundle.  Is it correct that this application for amnesty was an initial application which you filled in yourself personally, and where you want to incorporate statements which you had made before the Goldstone Commission as well as before the Investigative Unit of the Attorney General, after you were involved in the investigation?

MR NORTJE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: On page 14, is that your signature and was this confirmed by a Commissioner of Oaths.

MR NORTJE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: And as part of that initial application, you made an affidavit with regard to your involvement with the Transkei coup and you indicated the date as 1992, but in hindsight, it seems that this date is wrong, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: The particulars which you give is also an extract from the statement, or it is the contents of a statement which you made in Denmark while you were under a Witness Protection Programme, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And this statement was also made before the Goldstone Commission, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Before you handed in this initial application, which is contained in this Bundle, you also obtained legal representation to assist you with your amnesty application as such and a supplementary amnesty application was drawn up which was handed up to this Committee as Exhibit B, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You confirm the correctness of the contents thereof?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: With regard to the Transkei coup, and I refer to Exhibit B, with regard to the nature and particulars thereof, the statement which you have already made and which is incorporated in the Bundle, you want to incorporate that?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And furthermore you specifically mentioned the offences for which you apply for amnesty and provided particulars as far as your knowledge stretches and whether other people were killed or injured and you deal with the political objective and the authorisation for your participation in this operation?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: We will refer back to that in future.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Lamey, sorry to interrupt.  This supplementary application if I can call it that, Exhibit B, we only have portion of it, could you  just give an indication more or less when it was made?

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nortje, you signed it on the 22nd of September 1997 in Pretoria, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, as far as my memory is concerned ...

CHAIRPERSON: The closing date was the end of September 1997, so it was before that, yes.

MR LAMEY: If I may just inform, this was also submitted to the Amnesty Committee prior, and timeously, before the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I accept that, it is just that I didn't have the signed page on Exhibit B, so I just wanted to know.

MR LAMEY: In preparation for this hearing, you prepared an addendum and signed it before a Commissioner of Oaths and that is already handed up as Exhibit C before this Committee, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And do you confirm the contents thereof?

MR NORTJE: I do.