Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: The front door, was it locked and it stood as it was?  It was, in other words never interfered with?

MR K LEBEA: We never interfered with it, so I don't know whether was it locked or not locked, but it was closed.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this window where everybody gained entrance into the house, was it open when you arrived?

MR K LEBEA: No, it wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you open it easily?

MR K LEBEA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How then did you - how then did they enter the house if it was not opened easily?  Tell us what happened.

MR K LEBEA: I broke it.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what happened?

MR K LEBEA: And then I opened it and then they started to enter and I was waiting outside.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, from your testimony, you evidence, that you did not do any reconnaissance but you were told that you go to this farm to repossess.  Now there's 4 of you, according to your evidence, what was each other's duty?  At least we know for you at least, you were standing outside.  What did you agree, who should do what?  We know about you.  What had Donosi to do?

MR K LEBEA: They were to enter and then attack and take whatever was to be taken.

CHAIRPERSON: Not mention made of who should do, for instance stand guard inside the house and the other one to collect the valuable items?

MR K LEBEA: No actually it wasn't like that.  It happened automatically when we arrived there that we decided that I wait outside and then they enter and do whatever they should do inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what we know, we want you to help us out.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that you have a 9mm.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And the AK47 was placed next to the car outside.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And your brother, Titus, testified that he had a panga.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What did Donosi and Samuel Mokweti have?

MR K LEBEA: What I remember while entering by the time Mr van Tonder was making that noise, I saw my brother with a panga, Samuel Mokweti with a knife and Donosi with a spade, shovel or something like that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did he get the spade from?

MR K LEBEA: It belongs to Mr van Tonder.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell us when you left, now that is the time going to the Mazelspoort farm, did Donosi have the knife with?

MR K LEBEA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So if I understand you correctly, it's just you and your brother who were armed, you with a 9mm pistol and your brother with a knife, with a panga?

MR K LEBEA: With a panga and Samuel Mokweti with a knife.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if I got everything as you say.  Let me repeat what I have here.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You had a 9mm pistol, Titus Lebea, your brother, had a panga.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Donosi had a knife.  What did Donosi have?

MR K LEBEA: No, Sir, by the time - inside the building, inside the house or where, outside?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I say you are preparing to go to the farm, who had what?

MR K LEBEA: Okay.  No, no, he never had anything, any weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: It's only the three of you?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything from you Adv Sandi?

ADV SANDI: No thank you very much, I've got no questions to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: My brother?

JUDGE DE JAGER: On your way to this farmhouse, did you visit people staying on the farm?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who were you visiting?

MR K LEBEA: Actually we didn't come there as visitors, the place where we arrived, it seemed to me it was a place like a tavern where liquor, cool drink was sold there, so we had to enter there to wait until the time.

JUDGE DE JAGER: While you were waiting there did you have any drinks?

MR K LEBEA: No, Sir, we just waited there, posing like we were drinking, but we were not drinking as such, we were just waiting for the time.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now how do you pose to be drinking?  have you got a glass before you filled with something and then you pose to drink?

MR K LEBEA: No, Sir, we bought only one quart of beer and then it was opened, but it just stayed there like that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You never consumed any liquor?

MR K LEBEA: Never.

JUDGE DE JAGER: When you agreed all to make a similar statement.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: One of you, I just want to make sure who, Abram Smith made a statement
"On a certain farm we visited one Paulus and we started drinking.  Upon a suggestion from Sam we then went for a walk.  Sam wanted to show us the area.  We then approached the farmhouse"
and then it's not quite clear but:
"Then Sam said that he had a firearm and that we had to go and break in at the house."
Is this correct, or wrong?

MR K LEBEA: No, it's not correct, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you sat at this tavern for almost three hours, isn't that so?

MR K LEBEA: Pardon?

JUDGE DE JAGER: You sat at the tavern waiting for almost three hours?

MR K LEBEA: It might be Sir, but I never counted how long we sat there, but it's possible.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You knew nobody at that place?

MR K LEBEA: No, I never knew anyone, it was for the first time I go there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you were visiting this place, pretending to be drinking, but you didn't drink?

MR K LEBEA: Never as such, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you didn't know the owner of the tavern and you didn't know anybody at the place there?

MR K LEBEA: I never knew anyone there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And the tavern owner didn't object to you people sitting there without ordering anything?

MR K LEBEA: No.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR K LEBEA: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, any re-exam?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kachelhoffer, anything arising from what the Panel asked?

MR KACHELHOFFER: No thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing to ask.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KACHELHOFFER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga, anything arising from what the ...

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you calling any witnesses?

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your case?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the case for the applicant, Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Lebea, you are excused.

MR K LEBEA: Thank you very much, Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, are you calling any witnesses?

MR KACHELHOFFER: Mr Chairman if I may, I would like to call Mr van Tonder to testify about the injuries suffered by him and his wife, that's the only aspect I want to cover, if it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: It does.  The ball is in your court.  Is he going to testify under oath or he's just going to make a statement about his injuries?

MR KACHELHOFFER: It depends what you would like him to do, Mr Chairman, whether you want it under oath.  I think it is better if we do it under oath.

ANDRIES DAVID JACOBUS VAN TONDER: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr van Tonder, you may be seated.  Thank you.

MR KACHELHOFFER: May I proceed, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Kachelhoffer.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Mr van Tonder, could you explain to us, we have heard the background of what took place that evening, just with regard to the injuries that you incurred, could you explain to the Committee to what extent you were injured?