Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, you were questioned by Captain Deetliefs and that appears in bundle R4, page 19, that is where it starts, as indicated before.
	You testified that you were removed from the cells at 04H30 that morning and which is apparent from the document of which we don't have the tape recordings, your name appears on this with a summary of the events?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us the page again please.

MR PRINSLOO: Page 20 Mr Chairman.  The first page is 19.  Mr Chairman it starts at page 19 of bundle R4.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, if you look at paragraph 14 on page 20, it is explained or there is a list of names, could you explain the names?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Those are names which I drafted in the form of a list during one of the many boring moments that I experienced while I was serving in the President's Council.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you supply those names, or to whom did you supply those names?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To Deetliefs and Beetge because they had come to me Mr Chairman, with a list of names which had been extracted from a notebook of mine and they asked me whether I had prepared that list and I acknowledged that I had.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I have in my possession ...

JUDGE WILSON: Is that this list?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, we have in our possession a list of names, at this stage I don't have a copy of this list, I undertake to make the list available in a copy form, but I would just like to show him this list and ask him what he knows about this list.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, this is one of the lists that I drafted and it is in my printed handwriting.

MR PRINSLOO: For the purposes of the record, Mr Chairman, this list, this document as it exists was taken from the docket yesterday.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is off.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... when Judge Wilson asked was this the list and he said yes, was that the list of paragraph 14 on page 20 or was it the other list that was in the A bundle?  I just want that for purposes of clarity?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, this list is the list on paragraph 14 on page 20, that is not anything to do with the so-called, with the other address list.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, the list that you refer to as being in your handwriting, do you know where the police got this list from?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Mr Chairman, they got it in my house after they had searched the house.  And that is not the only list of names, they found numerous lists of names.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, may I refer you to paragraph 15 on page 20.  Mr Chairman, I will submit this list.  May I just make copies or do you wish me to hand it in now?

CHAIRPERSON: If it is just in his handwriting and it reflects the same names, then there is no point in handing it in, unless ...

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, it is not the same list of names, I would like to submit in the next page in bundle E, E12 thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: The only reason I mention this ... (intervention)

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, if you look at the names in E12 and paragraph 14 on page 20 of R4, the bundle, if you could just compare those names?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sure Mr Chairman, I will compare them quickly with your permission.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, Mr Derby-Lewis unfortunately drew a circle around the name which doesn't appear in the other list.  Please don't make any marks.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Mr Chairman, I have now compared the list and I have realised that it is not the same list, because in the list which I had prepared the name appears of Roelf Meyer, Ronnie Kasrils, Maharaj and Naidoo and they do not appear in the list on page 20.
	And then there are names on the list on page 20 which have been inserted there, which do not appear on my list  for example Palo Jordan, Steve Tswete, Sam Ramsamy, Hein Groskopff and then there is also a difference, there is a name on page 20 Barnie Disak, which on my list is Desai, which is a totally different name.
	And then there also appears the name of Steve Hofmeyer on the list for some reason or other.  Steve Hofmeyer as far as I am concerned, is a famous singer.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there any reason why you would have given Mr Steve Hofmeyer's name to Captain Deetliefs

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, not at all, even if I am not a great fan of Steve Hofmeyer's.

MR PRINSLOO: Okay, could we turn to paragraph 15 on page 20 for the sake of the record.  Page 20 paragraph 15 for the sake of the record, could you read it to the Committee Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sure Mr Chairman.
"From the time that Lewis prepared the above list, he also prepared a list of the most important persons whom were important for them in order to obtain their addresses.
	Among them names have been included which were unimportant so that for the person who would obtain the information, is should not have been clear why he had wanted to obtain the information. 
	This included names such as Karin Breynardt, Ken Owen, Tim du Plessis and Richard Goldstone."

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, it is so that we haven't had the privilege of listening to the tapes and to determine whose words they were, but were these your words?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, this information is not correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you provide such information to Captain Deetliefs?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't remember Mr Chairman. I cannot remember, but I wish to repeat that the information is not correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Could we turn to paragraph 16 on the same page?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I read Mr Chairman.  Paragraph 16,
"The list was placed on computer.  Lewis cannot remember whether Arthur Kemp an old journalist, an ex-journalist of both the Citizen and the Patriot, had been contacted telephonically and the names  put through to him or whether it had been faxed to him.  The reason why Arthur Kemp had been decided upon, was because Lewis had reckoned that with his journalistic background, he would have access to the people and their addresses."
It continues on page 21 Mr Chairman, 
"Lewis was astonished when the addresses were returned in the form of an observation report even with a photograph of Mandela's house."

MR PRINSLOO: Would you like to comment on that paragraph Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, yes, I was still involved in the struggle.  I was busy with stories, it is not the truth.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, if we could look at page 21 paragraph 17?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Paragraph 17 reads as follows
"Lewis was not at home when Kemp returned the list.  He is of the opinion that Kemp delivered it to his house personally.
		Kemp gave it to his wife Gabriella.  I don't know  what this funny little thing after Gabriella is, but it is not my mark, who in her turn gave it to him, Lewis.
		If Lewis remembers correctly, he asked his wife about the contents of the list whereupon he said that he/they were busy with something and that they needed the list.
		Lewis cannot remember whether he had mentioned Kuba", 
that is a repetition of the previous paragraph and the thoughts contained in the previous paragraph.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that information correct or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was incorrect and it was deliberately given to them incorrectly.

MR PRINSLOO: Paragraph 18, same page Mr Derby-Lewis.