Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: We were there for the eventuality, should the combi stop and people jumped out of the combi, to try and stop them to escape, because the only possible escape route would according to this map, be in a northerly direction into the river bed, because in front of them would be the casspir, to the right was a game fence which they couldn't penetrate, that is to the south, so if they tried to escape in that direction, we would arrest them.

ADV VISSER: What was your impression, or let me put it this way, according to your understanding of the instructions which you had to carry out on that day, relating to the people in the combi, how did you understand it?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: My understanding was that we had to arrest these people, but if they should resist and fire at us, that we should fire back.

ADV VISSER: Now, the combi arrived - can you tell us what you observed?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: If I could start with where the combi came to a halt in the sandy ditch.  The combi as was already testified, didn't stop quite where it was supposed to, but a little bit onwards, I saw it stop.
	And what I could see of the combi was only the rear part of it, I couldn't see the entire minibus.  When I say bus or combi, it is the same thing.

ADV VISSER: How much of the rear part of the vehicle could you in fact see from where you were laying?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: If I have to estimate, it would be about the rear portion and nine or twelve inches forward.

ADV VISSER: So it is actually a small piece of the combi that you could see protruding from behind the bank?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: Yes.

ADV VISSER: So, after it stopped what happened?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: Well, before it stopped entirely, Matthews jumped out.  I didn't see him jump out, but when the combi moved forward, I saw that Matthews appeared and he was still falling over his feet a bit, trying to regain his balance.
	At that stage the Defence Force man ran passed him, or perhaps it was earlier on.  He came passed there and threw the smoke or gas grenade into the combi.
	Matthews, or the Defence Force man said to Matthews, he pushed him into the direction of the fence.  He took Matthews and pushed him in the direction of the fence, he then ran back into the bush, this Defence Force man, back to where he had come from and where he was concealed, in a southerly direction.
	I heard a shot, a single shot.  Before the shot, I heard this cry or shout, which one of the witnesses referred, it was in a Black language and I don't understand any Black languages.

ADV VISSER: That is the swear word to which he referred?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: I understand that it is a swear word.

ADV VISSER: It was something like (indistinct)

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: Yes, I remember the (indistinct), I don't quite know how you pronounce it and that was before the shot rang out, if I remember correctly.
	Afterwards there was a short volley which I heard.  I deduced that it came from the combi.

ADV VISSER: Why did you make that deduction?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: Because it was automatic gun fire and our instructions were very clear, not to use automatic gun fire, it would be too dangerous.

ADV VISSER: What were you armed with?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: I was armed with my official R1 issue and my pistol.

ADV VISSER: So you heard this volley, what happened next?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: Then there was a lot of shooting, fire fight took place for quite a while, seconds, not minutes.
	And it then stopped.

ADV VISSER: Did you hear anybody shout seize fire or not?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: No, I didn't hear anybody do that.

ADV VISSER: Mr Van Dyk, did you fire a shot that day?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: No, I didn't fire a shot.

ADV VISSER: And the reason is because you couldn't see the combi?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: That is correct.  I couldn't see the combi.

ADV VISSER: Now, who laid on the extreme right if you were looking at the combi?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: I laid on the extreme right.

ADV VISSER: So the people laying next to you towards the left, would be able to see even less of the combi, is that correct?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Do you know whether any of them fired any shots?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: I know that they fired no shots.  Yes, that is correct.

ADV VISSER: The people in the casspir say that they can't say, but do you know whether the Defence Force people on the bank, whether they fired any shots or can't you tell us?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: I can't tell you.

ADV VISSER: I am afraid we can't place that evidence before you Chairperson, we don't know.  Mr Van Dyk, after everything became quiet, there was gas and smoke, what did you do, did you run away?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: No, the gas didn't come in our direction, it went in an easterly or maybe north easterly direction.  I saw that there was consternation and I ran into the bush in an easterly direction, because I heard people coughing and spluttering in the bush and I was worried, I was trying to find out what was going on.
	After I moved east, I then turned south into the bush and emerged on the other side of the casspir in the road and I saw Colonel Erwee running down the road, the gas had overwhelmed him.

ADV VISSER: That is Erwee?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: Yes.  I then returned to the bush, I saw Swarts where he was also struggling to breath.

ADV VISSER: Where was he?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: He was in the bush.  From the casspir he ran into the bush in a northerly direction.  I then returned to my position.
	I saw the combi standing there and I approached or I walked in the direction of the combi, but along the bank in the river, as far as the road.  That is to the west of the combi and that is where I stopped.
	I then waited for the explosive experts to first secure the vehicle, because my instructions from Erwee at that date was, should there be any interrogation, I would have to do the interrogation, or at least be present during the questioning because I had to compile a written report about the whole incident afterwards and send it to Head Office.

ADV VISSER: Was that your instructions given to you prior to the incident?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: Yes.  Yes, so I had to make sure exactly what had happened at the scene and especially during questioning.  Should there be any questioning, I had to be present so that I could take down all the necessary information for my report.

ADV VISSER: So you waited there for a while and then Erwee and the other people came down and the people would have been taken out of the combi, could you take it from there please?
	What did you do then?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: That is correct.  When Colonel Erwee picked up the wounded from the ground, I immediately ran to go and assist him to carry the person into the river bed.

ADV VISSER: So you were the person who helped him, because he couldn't remember who it was?

JOHANNES HENDRIK VAN DYK: Yes.  We carried him for about 20 metres in a northerly direction in the river bed, and as has already been testified, we placed him on his back.
	Mr Erwee tried to make him as comfortable as possible.  I went and sat at the person's head, between Erwee and Fuchs, I sat right at his head.  If he was laying in front of me and this was his head, I sat right at his head.  I think Mr Fuchs was on my right and Mr Erwee on my left.
	There were other people standing around us during the interrogation and I saw that the person was severely injured, that he was full of blood and I had a tape recorder, the tape recording advice.  I have an example here with me, it is about the same type of this, a very small machine which has a built in microphone.
	We often use this to tape interviews with informers or did questioning to be able to get the information on tape for later use.