Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: lacks, there is one personsitting in the congregation this evening, that was sitting right in front, mydaughter was the last actually that was pulled down, and she is not fair andyou could see it from a distance and the guy that shot to that direction, theguy right in front of me, if he couldn't see that, then I don't know, then hedidn't know what the distinction between White and

<UNKNOWN>: lack is.

<UNKNOWN>: ut I am talking about the composition, you told us about the

<UNKNOWN>: hinese and theRussians.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: There are

<UNKNOWN>: hinese and Russians that attend the churchas I said to you and outright you can actually see them.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You also said that this thing happened in a matter of seconds and it happenedvery quickly.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I did.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you accept that theonly basis that one can explain what happened that day, is that what was donemust have been done to achieve some political objective?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Man,to me, sorry about the noise, I felt in my way, that they wanted to gain mediaexposure and the only way they can do it, is to use a church.

JUDGE WILSON: Did they want to retrieve media exposure for their political purposes?

<UNKNOWN>: s I said again to the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: sort of reasoning, I wasn't aware ofwhat their reasoning and status was in this country, fighting the courses for,because I never read the newspapers etc.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you very muchMr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, thank you Mr Smith.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: ny questions you wish to put?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: ny re-examination?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Just one questionMr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. May I just clarify with you Mr Smith. What you are saying is that,or am I correct in summarising what you are saying to be that because the doorin the church stayed open, you assumed there was a third person holding thedoor open?

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: That is right.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr Smith.

LORENZO VICTOR SMITH: I would like to thank the Judges for allowing me to give my testimonybefore the time, but it is an unforeseen matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

<UNKNOWN>: ross-examining?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, my learned friend has suggested, as he suggestedthat I suggested that we take an adjournment at this stage until half past one,I don't know what the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee's attitude to that would be?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I won't say anything to you in confidence again.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems thatthe

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee members generally are persuaded by your request. We will adjournuntil half past one.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

<UNKNOWN>: OMMITTEE

<UNKNOWN>: DJOURNSON RESUMPTION -

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, you were about to commencequestioning of this applicant.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Mr Makoma,when did you, you say you became a member of the Task Force or rather you became- let me just clarify something. You became a member of the Task Force in 1993,is that correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When did you thenbecome a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I became a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: when theone who was a Task Force

<UNKNOWN>: ommander was arrested.

<UNKNOWN>: nd it was investigated thatI was one of those who were suspected. Under those circumstances I had to alignmyself with

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: members.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When did that take place though?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: In 1993.

<UNKNOWN>: lso in 1993?

<UNKNOWN>: fter you had joinedthe Task Force already?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: an you remembermore or less what month of 1993 that was? Was it in the beginning of the yearor the middle of the year?

<UNKNOWN>: t the beginning of the year.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE How long after you had joined the Task Force was it that youjoined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: It was not long after the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander of the TaskForce was arrested.

JUDGE WILSON: How long after you joined the TaskForce was the question, not how long after the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it one month, two months?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: It was only a month.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Was it not very close to the attack, about a month orso before the attack on the St James church that you joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No.

<UNKNOWN>: m I correct in saying it was when Vusi approachedyou that you in fact joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Is it not correct that he only approached you some three or four weeks priorto the attack on the St James church?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No, that is not true.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Is it correct that at some stage you left home with your parents,and you went to live with somebody else, another lady in Site

<UNKNOWN>: ?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Will you please repeat your question?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Is it correct thatyou at some stage left your parents' home and went to live with another woman,another lady in Site

<UNKNOWN>: in Khayelitsha, because you thought your parents wouldforce you to go back to school, which you didn't want to do?

<UNKNOWN>: re you asking whether that is true or not?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am askingif that is true?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No, that is not true.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did you come to meet Vusi?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I met Vusi through someone whowas from the P

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Who was that person? The person whomyou met Vusi through?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: It was Mhambi.

<UNKNOWN>: ndwho was he in the P

<UNKNOWN>: , what position did he hold?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: He was inthe Regional Executive of the P

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Who is Mr Mkula?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: He is the

<UNKNOWN>: hairman of the P

<UNKNOWN>: , in the Site

<UNKNOWN>: ranch.

<UNKNOWN>: ould you repeat the name please?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mkula?

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Was it not at Mr Mkula's house that you metVusi for the first time?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did Vusi,or is it correct to say that Vusi recruited you to

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Whathappened is this, when I heard that police are looking for me, the leader ofthe P

<UNKNOWN>: of the Region also heard that, they are the ones who asked me to meetVusi.

<UNKNOWN>: nd how was it arranged that you would meet Vusi,where did you meet him?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: There was a rally in Guguletu, thatis where we met.

<UNKNOWN>: nd who is Vusi in the P

<UNKNOWN>: or in

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: He is the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Where is he now?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I don't know.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When was the last time thatyou saw him?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I last saw him about two or three months beforethe attack, because he was supposed to go away. The only thing I knew he wassupposed to leave in a period of two to three months.

<UNKNOWN>: nd then Lester was goingto take over, Lester Sichomiso.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What is Vusi's full name?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: In

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: we don't know each other by our full names, I know him asVusi.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did your training - Vusi trained you in militarytraining, is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: y the time I was still in the TaskForce group, as

<UNKNOWN>: assie has said before, there were also

<UNKNOWN>: PL