Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-10

DR TSOTSI: Just before that, I think we took him off the trend.  He told us that they reported the matter to the TF, can he go along and tell us what happened as a result of that report?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that is the question, isn't it Ms Goso?

MS GOSO: If I can put it to him like that Mr Chairman.  Before we took you off the track and asked you about reporting to the Police, you were informing us that the members of the Regional structure to whom you had reported, undertook to report this to the Task Force.  Can you then continue to tell us what happened from there?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: They said it is okay, he was going to refer the letter to the Task Force.  We were never involved thereafter.

ADV SANDI: What was the Task Force going to do about this matter, according to Mr Mabusela?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he would just refer it to the Task Force.

ADV SANDI: To refer it to the Task Force so that the Task Force can do what about the matter?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: It is the Regional structure who knew what was going to happen, because all we knew was that the Task Force was there to protect the people.

MS GOSO: I am not so sure Mr Chairman, if the Members of the Committee heard the last reply.  Perhaps the, if they haven't, perhaps the Interpreter can repeat it for the benefit of the Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please repeat that.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: After reporting the matter to the Regional structure, the Regional structure said they were going to refer the matter to the Task Force.  They never came back to us to tell us what happened to the letter, we don't know anything.

DR TSOTSI: You said that the Task Force was there to protect the people, is that right?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I am saying the Task Force was protecting the people, so we did not have any idea of what was going to happen.  It is only the Regional structure who knew what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MS GOSO: Did you at any later stage, come to hear what happened then?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I never heard anything concerning the party, but there were no accidents.  There were no attacks, it was quiet.

CHAIRPERSON: When he said there were no accidents, he probably meant there were no incidents?  Is that right?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: At that time, but after some time, there were some incidents, but just after that incident, it became quiet.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS GOSO: Do you know a man by the name of Depoutch Elese?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: We know him.  I know him.

MS GOSO: Do you know about an attack that took place in his house?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I heard that.

MS GOSO: Do you know who attacked the house and why?

CHAIRPERSON: When was this attack, do you know when the house was attacked in the first place?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I don't know when was the house attacked.  I don't even know the people who attacked the house.

CHAIRPERSON: What year?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I am just forgetting, I can't remember the year.  I am so forgetful.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, I understand that.  You say that you don't know who attacked the house?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MS GOSO: Do you think there is any possible link between the attack in Depoutch's house?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you should put that question, when he doesn't even know when it happened.

ADV SANDI: He does not even know for that matter, who carried out the attack.  How is he going to drive the link?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't think you should put a question like that.

MS GOSO: The question is withdrawn Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS GOSO: That is the end of the examination.

MS GOSO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Fortuin, have you any questions?

MR FORTUIN: Yes Mr Chairperson.  Can you tell the Commission when you became a member of the PAC?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I started in 1960 when I was in the Gauteng Region, in the Gauteng Province.

MR FORTUIN: You then arrived in 1975 and I assume that you were always then a member of the PAC, is that correct?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FORTUIN: In 1991, what position did you hold in the PAC?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I was a Branch Chairman at Crossroads.

MR FORTUIN: Excuse me, you initially indicated that you first became an Organiser of the PAC and then only you became a member of the, then you became Chairperson of the PAC?

CHAIRPERSON: No, my notes say that he used to be Branch Chairperson, in 1997 he became Organiser.

MR FORTUIN: That is correct.  Mr Chairperson, he indicated that in 1996, round about 1996 he became Chairperson of the Branch of the PAC.  He said the year before last, I became Chairperson of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Out it to him.

MR FORTUIN: Sir, in your evidence you said ...

CHAIRPERSON: Ask him when, because there seems to be some doubt as to whether he said it was in 1996.

MR FORTUIN: When did you become Chairperson of the PAC Branch?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I started in 1991, I became the Chairperson of the PAC.  The year before last, I became an Organiser of the Branch.

MR FORTUIN: Excuse me sir, so I assume that since 1991 you were Chairperson of the PAC Branch of Crossroads and the surrounding areas, is that correct and then thereafter you became Organiser of the PAC, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: You shake your head, what is the answer?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I agree, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That you were Chairperson from 1991 to 1996?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: Sir, do you perhaps know Vuyisile Mketsu?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes, I know Vuyisile Mketsu.  He was a Treasurer of PAC.

MR FORTUIN: And he was never a Chairperson as far as you know, from 1991 to 1996?  He was never Chairperson of the PAC, of that Branch?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes, he became a Chairperson when we were renewing the Committee, he became a Chairperson after being a Treasurer, when they were renewing the Committee.

MR FORTUIN: And do you know what year he became Chairperson of the PAC, of that Branch?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Vuyisile Mketsu became the Chairman in 1996 because when he left the PAC, he was still a Chairman.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  So, it is not completely correct then that you were Chairperson of the PAC Branch from 1991 up to 1996?  There was a period that Mr Mketsu was also Chairperson of the PAC Branch, is that correct and you say from 1994?

CHAIRPERSON: I think in fairness, it could have happened during the year, isn't it?  It could have happened during the year in 1996, both Mketsu, he became Chairman, he ceased being a Chairman in 1996.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, if I understand his evidence correct, he became Chairperson of the PAC in 1991 up to 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So for two years he also indicates that Mr Mketsu was Chairperson from 1994 to 1996.  So there were two Chairpersons in the Branch then for that two years, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that Mketsu was Chairperson from 1994?

MR FORTUIN: I can pose the same question to him again sir, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: All I heard is that he said he became a Chairperson in 1996.  Just clear that up please.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Firstly, in the PAC organisation, the Executive Committee sits for only 12 months and after that, it is renewed.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is when did Mr Mketsu become Chairperson of the Branch?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: He started in 1996.  He used to be a Treasurer, he used to be elected as Treasurer.

CHAIRPERSON: That is cleared up.

MR FORTUIN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.  You say that you became a member of the PAC Region as well and now you were an additional member of the PAC Region, is that correct, the Western Cape?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: In the Region, that is correct.