Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, I knew all of them.

MR SWART: Were the other members of the group members of PAYCO?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I knew all of them, we grew up together.  I knew that some of them had membership cards like myself, but there are a few that I was not sure whether they were registered members, but I knew them as Comrades, because the took part in the struggle.  AZAPO people had their own area within Mbekweni.  Going further down the township it is Comrades.  I just took the other members as Comrades even though I did not know that they had membership cards.

MR SWART: Besides the jewellery and the cash do you know anything about the clothing and the video recorder that were taken?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I do not know anything about the video machine.  I do not remember seeing anybody carrying a video machine.  We were searching and we were throwing everything about.  There was clothing everywhere, but I do not remember a video machine.  However, I do remember, as I said, Madoda Tisana had a briefcase and a jewellery box.  I do not remember anything about video machines.

MR SWART: And do you remember about the clothing?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I do not know anything about that either.

MR SWART: You said in your amnesty application that you thought the shootings were not justified.  Do you still believe that?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I do not encourage their being shot, but it happened.  It was not our intention to shoot them.  They were victims and I do not encourage killing people that way, but it happened.

MR SWART: Perhaps I can just read to you from your application form, page four, it is small "b".  The question there says,
"Your justification for regarding such acts and missions or offenses associated with the political objective".
Then your answer to that was the following,
"In terms of the house breaking and theft I feel that we were under a real threat from the State and AZAPO and therefore needed to defend ourselves.  However, regarding the murders there was no justification.  In fact, this was not part of our plan when we raided the farmhouse".
My question is do you still stand by that, that there was no justification?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Those people, as I said, it is not something I would encourage, to kill them.  There were mere workers at the farm and we were not there to kill them either.  As Philemon Maxam was shooting and he was also shooting to, so that they did not have details to give to the police about us.  To my knowledge it was not our intention to kill these people.  Unfortunately, they did die.

MR SWART: Yes, but the crux of the question I have, I keep asking you is was it necessary to shoot them, because the way I understand you say it was not necessary.  I know it is unfortunate and I know you did not intend to do it, but was it necessary that it should be done?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I am trying to explain the situation at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: He says that there was no justification.

MR SWART: In his application, but now, he does not want to say so now Judge.  That is the point I am trying to make.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: What I am saying is that I am not, I would not encourage people being shot, but it happened.

MR SWART: Yes, you were there at the time.  The question is would you have shot them if you had the weapon in your hand?  Was it necessary to shoot the people.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, I object to this question.  Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: He says he would not encourage others to do it.

MR SWART: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SWART: I will accept that as the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SWART: ... answer Judge.  Thank you.  When you got together with the other members of the group afterwards did you discuss all the items which had been removed from the house?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, we did meet.  We talked about these articles.  If I remember well, Madoda Tisana was the one with most of the information about these things.  He had left the briefcase behind as he was running.  He showed us the jewellery and the money and the same day we went to KTC in Cape Town.  We exchanged the jewellery box for two guns and we came back the next day.  These are the things that I remember.

MR SWART: And what became of the money.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry.

MR SWART: I thought you used the money to buy the weapons with.  What became of the R2 000,00 cash?

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, if I might just intervene.  His evidence was that the jewellery was, the jewellery was used to swap or trade for the weapons earlier on.

CHAIRPERSON: There seems to be some doubt about that.  Let him clear it up.

MR SWART: Could you explain with what you bought the weapons?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: We bought the, we exchanged the jewellery for the guns.  We would use the money in our travelling, buying food, paying for transport.  However, we exchanged the jewellery for the guns.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know how much the guns cost?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I would not know, but the gentleman at KTC who sold these guns to us, he said he would give the guns to us if we would give him the jewellery.  We did not talk about the money or he did not stipulate a price.  It was just such an exchange.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry Mr Ndinisa, what is the meaning of KTC or what does that abbreviation stand for?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: It is a squatter camp in Cape Town, not far from New Crossroads.  So, it is not far from Guguletu.  You get a lot of Comrades from there.  It is a squatter camp.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how far is KTC from Mbekweni?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: It is quite far.  We would use a train to travel from Mbekweni to KTC.  You travel for a hour, ten minutes in a train, you would get off at Bellville and other stations from this station, the last station you would take a taxi, for example, to take you to the township.  You would take a hour, about a hour.

MR SWART: Was the R2 000,00 divided up amongst you or did one person administer it?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: We did not divide this amongst ourselves.  It is Madoda who would, who had the money.  We would discuss buying the food amongst ourselves, but it is Madoda who kept it, but we were all using it.  We did not divide it amongst ourselves.

MR SWART: Is it so that the gardener was being tied up at any stage?

JUDGE WILSON: He said he tied him up with wire.

MR SWART: Sorry, is your answer yes to that?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes.

MR SWART: Could he run the way he was tied up or was he lying?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: He was lying down.  I tied him up around the legs.  He could not run.

MR SWART: Did you see when he was shot?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: No, I was not sure whether he was shot as well, because at that time when he got shot we were already running off.

MR SWART: When you last saw him was he tied up and lying down?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes.  It was me who tied him up.  Even when we were running off he was lying on the ground.  He was still lying there.

MR SWART: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWART

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sorry.

MR BRINK: I want you to tell me, have you ever been from the Paarl area, from your township to KTC camp before this happened, before that particular incident?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes.

MR BRINK: What was the, what, do you remember what the train fare was and the taxi fare?  More or less.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: We would use about R4,50.

MR BRINK: How many of you went to KTC after this incident?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Four.

MR BRINK: Four of you.  And how long did you stay in the Cape Town area?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: We spent the night and came back the next day.

MR BRINK: Did you spend the night with Comrades in KTC camp?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes.

MR BRINK: And you would have only had to buy, possibly, an evening meal and a morning meal.  Would that be correct?