Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-12

MS LANDMAN: No, the Casualty Commissioner claimed, but I was on medical aid at work and I suffered a lot of pain and all my medication, my tablets I have had to pay myself.  They also then told me that my anxiety resulted in insomnia.  I was not able to sleep after that and approximately R200,00 or R300,00 a month was paid into my account.  I am constantly taking anti-depressants and I am constantly having to take sleeping tablets.
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YASMINE SOOKA: At this point in time does your medical aid cover the councilling costs?

MS LANDMAN: Yes, they but I am also still having to contribute to some extent.

YASMINE SOOKA: At the time in question did the bank make any special effort to make sure that all the people who were involved in this hostage drama, that they were able to receive councilling because people must have been suffering from shock.

MS LANDMAN: Yes, I know that, but not at that stage.  We did not, I spent months in hospital and I did not receive any treatment there, but I think there was a stage in the history of our country that it did not come, it did not appear as if there was too much attention paid to these things.  The only help one really had or assistance one really had was your friends.  At the moment I really need emotional support.  I do not think that it really has anything to do with my organisation, I think it really just had to do with the time factor, but now if there is a bank robbery or if there is any hostage situation in a bank, yes, then they certainly do cater for psychological treatment or assistance to those who were involved.  So I think that we are at that stage.  We are just pioneers in this whole regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mrs Landman, thank you very much.  Like Dr Malan I also found your testimony very moving and also your lack of bitterness.  Just to help, to come back to the point that Dr Malan asked about political context.  While you were in the bank for those six or seven hours, the people who actually held you hostage, did they give any indication from PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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which political organisation they were, did they say anything?  Was there any type of political discussions taking place?

MS LANDMAN: Yes, yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: And what was the nature of that?

MS LANDMAN: Like I said we went through phases.  The first phase was that of denial.  We just could not believe this.  The second phase when we became aware that, yes, it actually did happen, that this is happening to us.  After about an hour we had to put our hands on our heads and after about an hour and only then did we start communicating with the terrorists.  This, of course, took place between myself and some of the bank officials and we then asked them why are they doing this and that is when they replied or they did not specifically say that they were from the ANC.  They just said that they wanted to be free and they said that we are doing this for our country and they just said that they are doing this because they want to be free.
 There was one specific terrorist who was with our group.  We were in three groups and I then asked him why he is doing this and I asked him why he was prepared to give up his life for this and I said because you are going to be killed.  He said, well, we know we are going to die, but you are also going to die with us.  At one stage I asked him why are you doing this, is there no other way?  He said my mother works for you for R4,00 a month.  So there was some understanding and there were still a lot of questions that we could not answer and that is really how the conversation went.  It went around why they were doing this and that was their answer.  So the conversations definitely moved into a political sphere and, of course, then the negotiations for 
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us to be freed started.  I cannot really remember.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you Mrs Landman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata.  You can use the ear piece if you like.  Then you will get the translation in Afrikaans in any event.

THOMAS MANTHATA: During the discussion with this in your third party or your third group what did you find this person to be like?

MS LANDMAN: Two of the terrorists, the ones who were in the banking hall, they were very calm.  They were not aggressive, but the one that was with us, he was very emotional.  In fact they were all very emotional.  They cried, they sang freedom songs, but except for the one that was with us, they were not really very bad.  We, for example, the girl that was shot dead, the one who was lying on my lap, she from the beginning fainted quite a bit, but from the other two there was definitely no, they were definitely not aggressive.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In short, I understand you to say that they were just, they were not hardened murderers?

MS LANDMAN: I cannot hear.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I see from your observation they were not hardened murderers.

MS LANDMAN: No, I do not understand your question at the moment.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What can I say in Afrikaans.  They were not murderers?

MS LANDMAN: No, they were not.  They actually said that they were freedom fighters and they said that they were prepared to die for what they believe in.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And you say that in the hospital, I noticed
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that you were in the hospital, you were termed the iron lady.  Was this a compliment for the role you could you have played between the freedom fighters and the police on, when they first entered the bank?

MS LANDMAN: No, no.  The iron lady, just after I was shot people entered the bank and at that stage nobody came to fetch me and somebody then walked past me and said leave her, she is an iron lady.  In hospital and because I had to do all the interviews with the press, it was just really something that they called me, but perhaps what everyone else thought was a compliment, but for me it really was a very stressful situation and I was under the impression that I was not allowed to cry that I just had to continue.  So it was very stressful for me even though to them it might have been a compliment.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Yes.  Mrs Landman, we do not mean to revive, you know, the old wounds, but as you have said yourself that you would love to outlive this era.  Is there anything you could suggest that the Truth and Reconciliation can do with you and for you to expedite, to facilitate, you know, the wholly healing of the traumas that you have experienced?

MS LANDMAN: I think what I have done today is, in fact, what the role the Truth Commission has been playing because some people and even the doctors who are treating me currently, did not think that it is advisable for me to come and to appear here, but I am really glad that I did and if this is the only thing that the Commission has meant to me, I really, really appreciate it.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Mrs Landman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Landman, can I please once again thank you and can I also please make use of this opportunity to say
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that what you are saying today is not something new, it is something that is shared by most of the witnesses.  This is a process of healing, a process which stretches over a long period and that we will still go through a process and that this process of healing will still continue for a long time.  Thank you very much for a very clear story that you told us.
 We will adjourn.  If we can just give the witnesses a chance to go out first.  Sorry, we will be reconvening, let us say at two o' clock.  If we could just stand again and give the witnesses an opportunity to leave the hall first. 
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