Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-07

WITNESS:   It was during 1991, even if I don't remember the exact month and the days, I had been approached by Madlanduna - Daluxolo Luthuli - to inform me that I had to go to Ulundi to meet the leaders - leaders like Captain Langeni and others.  However, he didn't mention the names of the others.  The person who he mentioned to me was Captain Langeni, who was a captain at that time.  I didn't doubt, because I did work with Langeni after my training at Caprivi.  I believe that in my past evidence I explained how I worked in Port Shepstone, where I worked under Captain Langeni for about three months with him on the South Coast.  Even if he was a KwaZulu Police, we were doing the Inkatha work at that time.  Therefore I didn't doubt, I took the steps to go to Ulundi to see Captain Langeni.  Madlanduna has already explained to me that there are some serious cases which have to be solved and myself, as a person who was trained earlier to be an Inkatha soldier, and I knew the connection between the KwaZulu Government or the KwaZulu Police with the Inkatha.  Therefore I had to go to Ulundi.

MR MACADAM: /I went there

MR MACADAM: 1A I went there to see Captain Langeni.

MR MACADAM: And Madlanduna, when he approached you, what position did he hold at that stage?

WITNESS:   Madlanduna had two positions.  He was a political commissar to the Caprivi's.  He was also a commander.  His office was at the head office of Inkatha at Ulundi at A Section.

MR MACADAM: And what transpired when you arrived at Ulundi?

WITNESS:   I arrived at Ulundi.  I parked my car at the LA and I went to Captain Langeni's office.  We greeted each other peacefully and he told me to wait for a moment because there was a serious meeting which we had to conduct.  He left me in the office.  After that, Mr Robert Mzimela entered the office.  During that time he was a secretary of the KwaZulu Legislature.  And then a man by the name of Prince Gideon Zulu entered too.  During that time he was the Minister of Pensions in the KwaZulu Government.  Thereafter Madlanduna came.  After some time we sat there and talked. They called - they made a call to M Z Khumalo.  We waited for him.  He ended up arriving, and the meeting started.  They told me that they are getting reports from Esikhaweni and the surrounding areas that the Inkatha is getting eliminated, as they are getting killed by the ANC people.  In other words, we were losing support at Esikhaweni and surrounding areas as Inkatha.  Because the way the war was waged, it became clear that people have went to hide their heads under an organization which could protect them.  That was because they could see the organization which was winning at the time.  Therefore they complained that - the local leadership of the IFP in Esikhaweni and surrounding areas was complaining that the Ulundi leaders are not doing anything to help them to

MR MACADAM: /avoid the loss

MR MACADAM: 1A avoid the loss of support, the loss of lives of our members, because it became clear that we were getting defeated, and that was the theme of the meeting.  I was also reminded that I am an Inkatha soldier.  As I have explained in my evidence before the committee about my training - my past training - that I was also trained to be a policeman.  I was reminded that even if I was in the Police Force it doesn't mean that I'm no longer a patriot and I was told that the time had arrived for me to use the skills I acquired at Caprivi.  I also put forward my views in that meeting.  There were many things which I wanted to know before I commit myself or agree that I will employ these skills which I had.  I asked about the things that I wanted to know and everything was clarified to me and I got all the answers, which satisfied me.  In other words, these answers made me to agree that I will do the task that they are asking me to do.  I don't know if I should continue to explain what are the things that I wanted to know before I commit myself to do the task.

MR MACADAM: Yes, if you could explain that.

WITNESS:   Firstly, I wanted to know whether the work that I was supposed to do is the work that can put me in a dangerous situation - things like losing my life or getting injured or getting arrested.  Those are the three things which I wanted to know.  I was given the assurance that with respect to my life it's not up to them, it's up to me, because I was trained so I should be able to protect myself, and I was told that with regard to arrest I don't have to worry because there is a brigadier who was a DC at Esikhaweni - it was Brigadier Khomo Mzimela - I was told that he would do all the preparations to make sure that I was safe in

MR MACADAM: /cases where

MR MACADAM: 1A cases where I find myself having committed crimes.  I was told that I shouldn't worry as to how he is going to do his job.  He knows what to do.  I then continued to ask about the arms which I would use to do the task, as to where I was going to get them.  Although I had two firearms issued to me from the police - a 9mm Z888, I had the G3 rifle - I was told that I don't have to worry, because I will be provided with the necessary arms.  I also enquired as to whether I would be doing the work alone or not.  Maybe I should take one step back.  They had already clarified to me that there were elements from the ANC and those were the people who were creating problems and they said that they are very influential people in the area and those are the people we are supposed to start with, to eliminate them.  They made that clear to me.  However, they never mentioned any name at that time.  What they said was that I was going to do the work in secrecy and I would be working together with the local leadership at Esikhaweni.  Among the local leadership they mentioned two people.  It was Mrs Lindiwe Mbuyazi and Mr B B Biyela.  As to who was going to help me, Madlanduna suggested that there are some other Caprivi's who are within the KwaZulu Police at Esikhaweni.  He was right, because they were there.  However, I came with the suggestion that if I was to do this difficult or serious job, which required the necessary secrecy, because people are going to be killed, I won't recommend that they should give me Caprivi's who are working in the Esikhaweni Police Station to work with me.  I had my own reason, which made me to think it won't be easy for me to work with them.  Firstly, they were heavy drinkers.  Secondly,

MR MACADAM: /they were

MR MACADAM: 1A they were people who like women and they had many women.  In my training which I got at Caprivi, it emphasised behaviour.  It was emphasised that once you find yourself socialising with women or like women a lot you will know that the secrecy of the organization could be leaked out, which - this could be dangerous for the organization up to leadership level.  These are the reasons which made me to refuse to work with these people.

MR MACADAM: Sorry, Mr Mkhize, I may have missed a portion of your evidence.  Could you just confirm for me whether anybody suggested that you should use the Caprivians in this enterprise or not?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat the last part of your question.

MR MACADAM: Whether anybody suggested to you that you should, in fact, use these Caprivians as part of this enterprise which you were going to embark on.

WITNESS:   I will repeat.  No one suggested that I shouldn't work with them.  It's myself who complained, giving those reasons which I have already mentioned.  I explained that I didn't want to work with them, because I suspected that we will not succeed if I had to work with such people.  I know the danger of the work that I was supposed to do.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Evidence Leader, I thought your question was if anybody suggested that he should work with the Caprivians and his evidence was clear to the effect that Madlanduna made that suggestion.