Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes I do know that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you have a SDU in your community?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The applicant who just gave evidence JusticeSegopa do you know him very well?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As a marshall also being a member of the ANCI think that the most members of the ANC within your communityyou are known to them, or you know them, Mr Justice Segopa haveyou ever seen him in any or at any of your meetings, was he amember of the ANC?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: I will explain in this manner about Justice. Justice is one person who was interested in politics but havinginterest in politics I did not have much knowledge about Justicewhether he was a member or not but I found him very active.  Sometimeshe would help where necessary.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So to say that Mr Justice was active what didyou see him doing?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: I saw him attending meetings that we heldin most times.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So being at the meetings does it tell thathe was active within the ANC, is that what you are saying?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: That is how I perceive the matter, that heattends most meetings and then I can say that this person is interestedin what we are doing here.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Mokabe would you agree with me when I saythat Justice Segopa attended your ANC meetings to listen justlike any other person?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes I agree with you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now Mr Mokabe I understoodyou to say that you were not present at a meeting during whichMr Minong told people that Inkatha was about to attack the residents?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes that is so.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you ever hear that there was such ameeting where he said that, even though you did not attend personally?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No.

JUDGE WILSON: There is just one point I would like toexplore, you were asked about what time this incident took placeand you said you didn't have a watch, do you remember tellingus that?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes I remember saying that.

JUDGE WILSON: Does this mean that you were there whenthe incident took place but you just don't know what time it was?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: No I was not there.

JUDGE WILSON: So you weren't there at all so you don'tknow about it, is that so?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Did Mr Minong give evidence at your trial?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And did he say at the time there was troublebetween two taxi groups?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes that is true.

UNKNOWN: And that the people feared an attack frommembers of one of the taxi groups?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes that is true.

UNKNOWN: And was that the position at the time ofthe attack, round about?  Did he speak the truth or not?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: He did speak the truth, those were the conditionsat that time.

UNKNOWN: So he said nothing about the involvementof Inkatha at all, he said it was rivalry between two taxi groups?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: He did speak about those incidents.

UNKNOWN: Yes but I put it to you that accordingto the information before us in the papers that he spoke of rivalrybetween two taxi groups but he didn't mention Inkatha.

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: What I remember clearly is that he did speakabout "marashia" in his evidence and also about Inkatha,he did speak about Inkatha when he gave evidence before the courtin Virginia.

UNKNOWN: And do you remember what they said aboutyou in court, that they in fact said that you stabbed the ladyin both eyes and that she was crying?

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: Yes I do remember.

UNKNOWN: And you did not deny that, you didn't giveevidence at all in the trial.

MONARE JEREMIAH MOKABE: What I remember vividly is that I refusedand said I know nothing about the incident that occurred in Odendaalsruswhich is Kaotlahong where I reside.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE JAGER
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATSEPE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman that closes the casefor the applicant Segopa
CASE FOR APPLICANT MR SEGOPA

UNKNOWN: I have indicated earlier that I just wanteda last final consultation which will not last long with the otherapplicant just to set my mind at ease.  Maybe we might have toapproach you in chambers regarding the problem I am facing withthe next applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Well will you try and expedite matters as quicklyas you can.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I will certainly do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  We will take a short adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
COMMISSION RESUMES

CHAIRPERSON: Which applicant are you talking about?

UNKNOWN: I am talking about Justice Segopa the oneI am presently with.  I Have the intention actually Mr Chairmanto make a substantially motivated submission to the Committeeand in the light of the fact that I haven't been able to preparethat submission my request therefore to you would be to grantme your indulgence and also give me time to prepare written submissionswhich would be submitted together with the other applicants thatI represented during the course of the week.  And which submissionsI confirm would be made available to the Committee within twoweeks hereof.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I had indicatedto my colleague that I am ready to address the Committee on thisparticular application.  But I would leave the application, hisapplication to the discretion of the Committee Mr Chairman andI would follow whatever is decided upon.  Mr Chairman before theChair decides on the application by my learned friend Mr Chairmanthe Committee would note that I did not call any witness in theform of victim or next of kin to the victims in Justice Segopa'sapplication.  I did not do so because these are not available. I have caused to be placed before all members a document whichis a report from the investigating unit in Durban and I referyou Mr Chairman and the honourable members of the Committee particularlyto page 10 thereof up till the end of the document wherein thereport about the next of kin in this application is well laidout.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Do you tender this as evidence, this report?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I don't hand it in as evidence but I hand itin to support my explanation as to the reason why the next ofkin are not here, because this is a report submitted to me bythe investigating unit as to what they have done.

UNKNOWN: Ja.  The only reason I am asking is becauseI think we should, if it's tendered as evidence it should be givento the attorney or to the representatives so that they could haveit before them and if they want to counter anything they shouldbe able to do so.  But if it's only as far as victims are concerned,and not tendered as evidence I think it could go in, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: We will receive it as an explanation as to whythe next of kin are not present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And further Mr Chairmanif I may add I refer the Chair and the honourable committee membersto page 10 thereof it starts from page 1 and that document givesthe names of all the next of kin to the victims in all applicationsthat were handled today.  Now this is in compliance with the requestby the committee member Advocate de Jager yesterday that namesof next of kin should be supplied.  This document covers all thatis required.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Now as for your argumentthat should be addressed now by Mr Matsepe you say that you requiretime.  The facts are very, very simple in this matter Mr Matsepe. Most of it is common cause.  Do you still require time to addressus?  I know you mentioned something about ...(indistinct) individuationcan hardly be advanced in the case where the accused did not giveevidence.