Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR MOTLAUNG: But I think that the point that my learned friend here wanted to make earlier on, which is a point I want to pursue, would be the following:  Did it matter to you as to how many people get injured?  Was there ever an intention on your part to minimise the loss of life or was it always your intention to maximise the loss of life?

MR LE ROUX: I did not want maximum Chairperson, that is why - it was not my decision but I agreed to it that the Bree Street bomb had to be placed on the Sunday and not on the Monday and also that the Germiston bomb would be placed at a later stage.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, talking about the Germiston bomb, I put it to you that as far as the building that you referred to is concerned, which according to you would have been the main target, there is in fact a parking area for that building and you did not plant you bomb in that area.

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, that bomb wasn't planted in the place we initially indicated.  We planned to put the bomb at a different place.

MR MOTLAUNG: No, Sir, I think is it not so that the bomb was actually planted at the taxi rank and not at the building?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is true.

MR MOTLAUNG: And not at the building that you're mentioning?

MR LE ROUX: No, it had to damage the building as well.  It wouldn't have served any purpose if we only blew up a taxi rank.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you plant two bombs?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson, there was only one bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Only one bomb?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson, Germiston.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where was it planted?

MR LE ROUX: At the taxi rank but right next to the Volkskas building and the Volkskas' parking.  It was close to other buildings as well Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Tell me, as far as the Germiston bomb in particular is concerned, was the aim also to damage the buildings?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Was the bomb placed inside any building?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: You testify that according to your perception at the time this was a war situation.  Who would have been on the one side and who would have been on the other side?

MR LE ROUX: The members of the Volksfront as I said, the CP, General Viljoen, the AWB, they were on one side and then on the other side you had the NP, ANC and SACP Alliance.

MR MOTLAUNG: Let me understand you Sir, is it your evidence that any particular person, any person who did not belong to the structures that you belonged to would be perceived to be on the other side?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Did you car whether any of your sympathisers or supporters get killed in the process?

MR LE ROUX: It could have happened but fortunately it didn't Chairperson, so that's that.  It was a bomb which would explode because we wanted to carry a message over to other people.

MR MOTLAUNG: So Sir, the magnitude of who gets killed, how many people, whether it's people who actually support your cause, that did not matter with you, correct?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Did it matter?

MR LE ROUX: No, Chairperson.  There were whites who died in the explosions.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, as far as the negotiations were concerned, did you know what the negotiations exactly entailed regarding your vision of a Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson, I knew.  The ANC had a meeting with General Constand Viljoen but these things were never finalised and the papers that were brought to them, no signatures were there, nobody signed them.  It was hanging in the air and with specific regard to the plans of General Constand Viljoen.

MR MOTLAUNG: And would it be a fair summary to say that at the end of the day you did not know what the final position of the ANC or any other particular party was going to be on your vision of getting the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not know specifically what their view was Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sir, I put it to you that as far as the Germiston bomb attack was concerned this was directed at the black people.  You knew this was a black taxi rank, correct?

MR LE ROUX: It was a place which had a lot of traffic but it was not directed at the black people.

MR MOTLAUNG: Is there any particular reason why you didn't choose a white taxi rank?

MR LE ROUX: Those taxis stood there packed.  I mean, if you drove through Germiston, the taxis were always there.  There were a lot of vehicles there.

MR MOTLAUNG: No, that I understand maybe but I'm asking you if there was any reason why you didn't choose a white taxi rank or would you do that?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, we didn't do it but I think it came down to it, we would have done it in order to convey a message.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, in conclusion I can only put it to you that for me it's very clear that your actions were propelled by nothing else but racism, hatred for the black people.

MR LE ROUX: Not at all Chairperson, I do not agree with that.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR BRACHER: You said that the application that you made is, in your own words, that it is the truth and you started off your evidence by confirming the contents of the written document, is that right?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Chairperson.  I could have made a mistake here and there.

MR BRACHER: No, you see, what I'm going to put to you is not "hier en daar 'n foutjie" but there are massive things left out of the written word which have popped into your evidence this morning, and I'll point them out to you just now.
	What I want to start with saying is you planted a bomb on the Sunday in Bree Street, nothing happened, nobody claimed it from the AWB, nobody said the election would stop, you'd now killed innocent people, why didn't you stop then?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage we were apart from the others.  I lived and ate there where we made the bombs.

MR BRACHER: You see Mr le Roux, one of the things that we require here is a bona fide furthering of a political struggle.  You had a car, you had petrol, you had a radio, you had a farmhouse nearby, you had every possible means to find out what the reaction to the first bomb was and you did nothing and you planted a second bomb and killed more innocent people, now why is that?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, beforehand I thought that we are busy with a war situation ...[intervention]

MR BRACHER: I know what you thought but why didn't you stop and find out what other people in your organisation thought before killing more people and more people?

MR LE ROUX: Well I did not do it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Don't say: "Ek het dit nie gedoen nie", why didn't you do it?  Why kill Mr Paul Ontong, my client's son in Germiston when you didn't know what it was doing and you didn't know it was doing anything at all?

MR LE ROUX: That was a series of bombs.  I believed that what I did at that stage was right in order to obtain certain things for the Afrikaner Boerevolk.

MR BRACHER: Is a: "reeks bomme" to achieve a purpose which wasn't being achieved at all?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, there the same things comes in, the same as with the Church Street bombing. Certain people died, civilians died and you cannot make a distinction.

MR BRACHER: I want to talk about your motive in your written document, paragraph 17, page 59
"During April 1994"
...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, you always talk about the Church Street bombing.  Was that the Pretoria Church Street bombing?

MR LE ROUX: Pretoria Church Street bomb, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you compare it?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, it is a way - in London IRA bombings also occurred and people were also killed in these bombings.  I quote now the Church Street bombing and it's an example for us to use.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us accept that they did certain things and they - but this is now a question.  It does not make right what you did.