Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

BONGA KHUMALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were told by Mr Mabuza Mhlongo, is that correct?

BONGA KHUMALO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When he told you of this incident, did he give any indication whether they had verified the accusation that had been levelled against Ms Mokoena and Ms Nduno of being IFP spies and passing on information to the police?

BONGA KHUMALO: First of all, we did not have a relationship with the police in the township at the time.  Secondly, what thing I discussed with him as I was supposed to do.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry about that, there was some interference.

BONGA KHUMALO: What information I got from the Commander, as you were asking me about verification, my understanding was that the deceased confessed when she was captured, she confessed that she was involved in the Boipatong massacre.  That was a general rumour.  She confessed that she was part of it and gave them all the information but unfortunately, there was no cooperation until that which happened, happened.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean there was no cooperation, from whom, from the deceased?  Are you referring to the deceased when you say there was no cooperation?

BONGA KHUMALO: I am talking here about cooperation with reference to taking her to the office to explain to the leadership.  There was no cooperation.
	Madam Chair, would you please understand that I was not part of this.  This is just one information that I later on received.

CHAIRPERSON: I am aware of that.  I am just asking questions as a result of the evidence you have given before us.
	So save for the confession that you were told the deceased made at gunpoint, when she was threatened with death, no verification had been made?  Remember your evidence is that the verification that would be made, would be made by your underground structures, so no such verification was made?  He didn't say he had made such verification or he did not say anything about that kind of clarification.

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, there were rumours as I have indicated.  I personally did not get a confirmation but he said she personally confessed.  There was no special assignment pertaining to Hapile.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That is all that I wanted.  When you say there was no special assignment, you mean no verification had been made regarding the accusations that were being levelled at her and Ms Mokoena?

BONGA KHUMALO: Can you repeat that please.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Mabuza Mhlongo ever confirm with you that verification with regard to the accusations that have been levelled at Ms Mokoena and Ms Nduno had been made?  Did he say listen, we have verified this information with our underground structures?  Did he ever say that to you?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, he did say that.

CHAIRPERSON: He did?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you elaborate on what he said about the verifications?  I take it that you don't mean the confession that Ms Nduno made at gunpoint, when she was threatened with death.  I mean the verification that you have already testified to, that would be conducted by your underground structures.

BONGA KHUMALO: Madam Chair, I did explain earlier on that on the day when I met this Commander, I was on the run and we did not discuss many things.  I just wanted to know what happened and he gave me that statement.
	He had to confirm whether there was verification conducted by the underground, and he confirmed that.  But then I did not go into detail trying to establish what happened.
	He did say that yes, there was a verification and I was satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he specifically say your underground structures had verified the information regarding the activities of Ms Hapile, did he say that?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, that is what I am saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Why has it taken you so long to answer to such a simple question, because now you have had to lead evidence with regard to the confession of Ms Hapile and things that he had said when she was being threatened with death and you wanted to suggest that as being the only verification that you were informed of by Mr Mabuza Mhlongo.  Why has it taken so long to say verification had been done by your underground structures?

BONGA KHUMALO: In my evidence, I said during that period I was on the run and resulting from that, I did not consult directly with the underground structure.
	That is why I am saying that I don't know whether Mabuza consulted them directly, right up until he later on told me that yes, he did verify that information.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, you know, you do not know how to respond to questions which are simple, unsophisticated, that are put to you.

BONGA KHUMALO: I am sorry for that.

CHAIRPERSON: We expect you to be able to do so.  You are a General Commander, you are the one that has led evidence about verification having to be conducted by your underground structures.
	The fact that you were in a hurry, what has that to do with whether Mr Mabuza did say anything about the information that they had having been verified by your MK structures.  What really has that to do with the question that was put to you, a very simple question?  Whether he did indicate that that information had been verified by your underground structures or not?
	You are very dilatory in your response.

BONGA KHUMALO: I would like for the house to bear with me in regard to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, emanating from the questions that have been put by the members of the Committee, and Ms Thabete, do you wish to do any re-examination on Mr Khumalo?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, I do not want to complicate the evidence further.  I have no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Khumalo,  you are happily excused by this Committee.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: ... of this Committee to proceed today with the testimony of one of the victims, at least the only victim, in respect of the incident we are currently dealing with, Ms Mokoena as well as having to listen to the testimony of the parents of Ms Hapile Nduno who was killed in this incident.
	It is our regret that we will not be able to do so because of the lateness of the hour.  We have requested Correctional Services to grant us an indulgence with the applicants until six o'clock.  We are eternally grateful for their continuous accommodation.
	We have extended beyond that which they had been prepared to accommodate us in.  The time is almost quarter past six, and in view of the lateness of the hour, we will have to adjourn these proceedings until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.  Thank you very much again to the members of Correctional Services.
	Keep on accommodating us in this difficult process.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS