Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: They just informed me that Nosenga told the people there that he had been sent by the ANC to infiltrate the hostel and reconnoitre the area to establish where he could plant the bombs.
	I cannot remember which old man asked him but I think he was asked by an old man as to whether he was still prepared to go back to the ANC, and Nosenga is said to have said no, he's a member of Inkatha.

MR BERGER: And then what decision - were you informed as to what decision had been taken at conference as to what to do with Mr Nosenga?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I was not informed.

MR BERGER: Well did Mr Nosenga come back to stay in your room?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Did you speak to him about his trip to Ulundi?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I asked him in the presence of other how they fared to and fro and he told me that they fared well.

MR BERGER: Did Mr Nosenga tell you that he had met Chief Mangasotho Buthelezi at the conference?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, he didn't explain that to me.

MR BERGER: So as far as you were concerned it was alright for Mr Nosenga to come back and stay in your room, you were quite happy with that?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, because we had realised that he's a nice person.  He didn't have to be on his own thinking all the time.

MR BERGER: So from then on you treated him as a friend?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I would say that.

MR BERGER: Mr Buthelezi, I want to put it to you that this version of Mr Nosenga admitting that he was an ANC spy who had come to blow up the hostel and kill the hostel residents is a fabrication and it has been concocted by you and some of your fellow applicants who have recently given evidence.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, we have witnesses who arrived in Nosenga's presence.  There are people who can testify in my favour in this regard, people who are no longer at the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are those people?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Xhala, or should I say the first one would be Tsalmo, Nomjali Fasibiya ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Tsalmo's surname?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he stays?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I used to see him at Zone 7.

CHAIRPERSON: When last did you see him?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Last week.

CHAIRPERSON: This is Zone 7 where, Sebokeng?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Tzwee is one person who has the full knowledge to this effect.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you said that you last saw Tsalmo at Zone 7.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So where?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: At the shops.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but which township, in Boipatong, in Sebokeng or ..."

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: At Sebokeng, Zone 7.

CHAIRPERSON: You said this was last week?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the other person?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Tzwee Bajosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I've got Salmo, Tzwee, Bajosi, who is the other one?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Nomjali Fasibiya.

CHAIRPERSON: And where does he stay, Nomjali Fasibiya?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: When I asked him last week where he stays, he told me that he stays at the two rooms near Palm Springs.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and Bajosi, where is he?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: At his parents' home, Zone 7, Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	You say that Mr Bajosi would be able to come and tell the Committee everything about Mr Nosenga?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I trust that he can come here.

MR BERGER: Joseph Radebe, is he still alive?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he is arrested.

MR BERGER: Where is he now?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: The last time I heard he was in Groenpunt, Groenpunt in Stoffberg.

MR BERGER: Serame Mokoena, where is he?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I have no idea as to whether he is still alive or not.  The last time I heard of him he had gone to Parys.

MR BERGER: Papie?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He too is incarcerated in Sun City.

MR BERGER: And finally, Skumbuzo?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: He cannot be found, he is moving about.

MR BERGER: This quarrel that you had with Doti and Skosana was in Sebokeng, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Were you friendly with Stals Mazibuko at Kwamadala?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: Did you see him at Kwamadala?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did.

MR BERGER: Did you take your 9mm with you to Kwamadala?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No, we gave it to a boy called Lucky from Everton.

MR BERGER: Did you think you wouldn't need your gun once you got to Kwamadala?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, it never occurred to me that I might need it.

MR BERGER: So when you went to Kwamadala, you, Doctor and Jabulani, none of you had guns, is that right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I would say as far as I'm concerned, Doctor and Jabulani had knowledge about the pump-guns.

MR BERGER: No, I'm not asking about their knowledge, I'm saying when the three of you entered Kwamadala on the 17th of June 1992, all three of you were unarmed.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And where is Jabulani and Doctor today?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: They died in 1992.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you - or let me ask you this, what time did you enter Kwamadala hostel on the 17th of June?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: It was round about 12 to 1.

MR BERGER: Wasn't it  about 3 o'clock in the afternoon?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: That is my estimation, 12 to 1 is my estimation.

MR BERGER: At the criminal trial, page 3444 you said you arrived at the hostel at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I was not sure because - I am saying that I was not sure because I was angry about what happened to me.

MR BERGER: So?  Because you were angry you said you arrived at the hostel at 3 o'clock in the afternoon?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: That was an estimation of time.

MR BERGER: After you got into the hostel you were allocated a room you say, by Mr Mthembu?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: And then you went to your room together with Jabulani and Doctor, is that correct?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: What did you do between the time you got to your room and the time you heard the siren go off?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: We held hands and spoke to some of the gentlemen that we found there.  We bought liquor, we sat drinking.

MR BERGER: And there was no talk that afternoon about an attack on Boipatong, was there?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: In fact the first indication that you had that something was going on was when you heard the siren?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I asked what this whistle was all about, Serame then told me that we were wanted at the stadium, something might happen.

MR BERGER: And Doctor and Jabulani were drinking with you and talking throughout the afternoon?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: We sat drinking all together to the time that we heard the siren.

MR BERGER: Well you see, my problem with that is there would then be no time for Doctor and Jabulani to go and fetch the shotguns from Sebokeng hostel.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: There was time because at some point Jabulani disappeared.

MR BERGER: No, you see you said you sat drinking with them the whole afternoon until the siren went off.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what I've just said.

MR BERGER: But you also say at some point in the afternoon Jabulani got up and left.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And he left the hostel and he went to Sebokeng hostel, am I right?

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: I only heard from him when he came back telling me that he was coming back from Sebokeng hostel.