Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: When he arrived I could see that he was angry but I still spoke to him even though he seemed as if he was angry.  He then asked for some time because he said he wanted to meet with Brig Gqozo because he had to have a meeting at 11 o'clock that morning with Brig Gqozo.  He then said that after that meeting he would then address us, after meeting with Brig Gqozo.

MR OBOSE: You spoke to him.  Were you asked to, in a sense, lead this group of officers or was it by virtue of your seniority etc?  Why did you yourself speak to him?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We discussed this issue amongst the police and they said that I must be the one who speaks to him.

MR OBOSE: Which other inspector was to do the negotiations?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: As he was angry and as I was talking to him, the other inspectors were also talking, I didn't notice who they were.

MR OBOSE: What was the mood now in the house when it became apparent that he wouldn't sit in session but had to see Brig Gqozo first?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: There was nothing, nothing happened at that time because he requested us to give him a chance to meet with Brig Gqozo first and then he would then come back to us.

MR OBOSE: Did you specify as to what he wanted to discuss with Brig Gqozo or he just said "I'm going to see Brig Gqozo"?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He said to us that amongst the issues he was going to discuss with Brig Gqozo, there was this issue about the pension of the police.

MR OBOSE: Did he then leave?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, he left but before leaving we had a request that before he would leave, we were asking that when he was discussing the pension issue and the future of the police, we wanted him to take along the other police - we wanted other police to come, not only the male inspectors, we wanted them to come and hear what the commissioner was saying.

MR OBOSE: So you asked him that this invitation be extended to other policemen as well?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: What did he say?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He agreed.  He didn't waste time, he just agreed.  He said "that is okay, you can call other police, they can also come and listen for themselves."

MR OBOSE: And were they then called, the other policemen?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes they were called.

MR OBOSE: You mean from throughout Ciskei, as it then was?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, throughout Ciskei the police were called and they came and other police who were in the college, they were also called to that meeting.  They were also there and waited for the commissioner.

MR OBOSE: And the commissioned officers, were they also called or did they come?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes the commissioned officers were also called and the senior officers, they arrived and they were there.

MR OBOSE: Now you then waited for Commissioner Nqoya to come back.  What happened?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We waited and waited.  He arrived in the morning the next day.  As he left at about 11 on this particular day, he came back the following morning and I think that all the police were going to give up because we were waiting for him.

MR OBOSE: Now when the police gathered at Bisho college, who were then left to man the police stations?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: There were other police who were there at the police stations, who were left behind.

MR OBOSE: What then happened, what occurred in the meantime, in the afternoon and the early evening at the Bisho police college?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: When we were waiting there Mr Goosen arrived and Mr Finqa.  Mr Jurgens and others arrived.  They said that they heard about what was happening in the Ciskei. They were there to listen for themselves.  They were trying to solve the problem.  They were there to listen to all the complaints, the police complaints.

MR OBOSE: So they came on their own accord, no delegation was sent to call them?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No delegation was called.

MR OBOSE: Roughly what time did they come in there?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: They arrived during the night, I think at about 9 at night, that's when they arrived.  They didn't arrive at the same time.  Mr Jurgens arrived in the morning and others arrived at night.

MR OBOSE: After Commissioner Nqoya had left?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: After Commissioner Nqoya arrived.

MR OBOSE: Mr Jurgens, what connection did he have with the police at the time, if any?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Mr Jurgens was an Attorney-General in Ciskei at the time.  He was also the minister of the police.

MR OBOSE: What did he do when he got there?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He listened and then he said to me, at the police station there were no police who were left there at the police stations so he said that I must try and send other police at the police stations because we'll be charged for mutiny if there are no police that would be sent at the police stations.

MR OBOSE: What did he listen to, I mean what was he told when he got there?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Mr Jurgens was told about things that happened or things that were happening in the Ciskei, that police were not taken care of, the police money was misused and the families of the police were not treated well by the senior officials. He listened to all that and he was told that the situation was bad because Brig Gqozo was against the free election in the Ciskei and if Brig Gqozo was in the Ciskei, the election would not be free, that's why the police were there.

MR OBOSE: What was his response, if any?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He said that he promised that everything would be fine.

MR OBOSE: Did he respond specifically to this complaint against Brig Gqozo, that he promised to take it up with him etc?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He did mention the fact that he received messages from Pik Botha in Pretoria that Brig Gqozo had telephoned him and that he said that the police were against him in the Ciskei so he wanted to resign at that time, so he said that we must not worry about Brig Gqozo.

MR OBOSE: What then happened?  Did he leave after that, Mr Jurgens, or did he stay until the other people that you've mentioned had arrived?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He stayed there, he didn't leave.

MR OBOSE: Now the afternoon and the evening, what was going on at the hall?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: At the evening while we were still waiting there, there were some issues that were coming up and we found out that the senior police wanted to have positions in the new government.  They forgot about the lower rank policemen.  As we were the ones who were working, they were not interested in us, they wanted to get positions and we also addressed that in the meeting.

MR OBOSE: So in other words the meeting did continue and issues were raised and discussed?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR OBOSE: The senior officers that got there and some were obviously in certain responsible positions, were they made to account for certain things?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No, I wouldn't say so.  The person I was focusing on was the commissioner as he was the head of the police in the Ciskei.  That's the person, I wanted to know from him what was happening.

MR OBOSE: Was anybody forced to attend the meeting, or having attended the meeting, refused the right to leave the meeting?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: There was no one who was forced and there was no one who was refused permission to leave.  I would say that the majority of people who were there, they were there on their own because it was not easy to go to a person and say come on this side because the senior police would drive their cars.
We would see them coming inside the hall and they would sit down and give them seats because we respected them.

MR OBOSE: Where did they sit in the hall, the officers?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: All the officers were on the grandstand.

MR OBOSE: So you mean the podium as where the Commissioners are seated?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.