Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, at that stage I was not given those tasks except for the Motherwell case.

MR PHOSA: Were you - did you just happen to be at Vlakplaas and it also happened to be a place that eliminates, just a coincidence?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I was not situated at Vlakplaas, my office wasn't there physically, my office was at head office.  Mr de Kock was the commander at Vlakplaas itself.  I hope that answers the question.

MR PHOSA: You were above him?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Did you get reports about what was happening at Vlakplaas?  Just briefly, not detailed now - I'm not trying to get into detail about it but did you get reports about what was been generally done at Vlakplaas? - I hope I get past this one.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: So what we now know as being the image of Vlakplaas, was known to you at the time that you were at head office and Mr de Kock was at Vlakplaas?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, I'm not sure which month it exactly was, it must have been 1st of October or 1st of November 1989 up to December 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevance of this Mr Phosa, to something that happened in 1982?

MR PHOSA: The relevance of this is - if you want to ...[inaudible] our attitude.  Our attitude is that this gentleman was never involved in any political endeavour and indeed we describe him as simply a killer and we're going to suggest that his general conduct before and after the present incident, is indicative of that very fact.  And that he's not applying here because of any change of mood but simply because of his own - maybe he's just caught and he's trying to save himself from charges which is nothing to do with the political situation.  And that is what I've said before, he should just indicate and I'll put my questions to him - I was going to put that to him.
	Anyway getting back to the situation of Kondile, who was the first, first person to mention to you that you should now eliminate these two persons, eliminate Mthimkhulu and Madaka?  Who was the first to mention it to you?  Or did you mention it to them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well, I think it was me, I'm not too sure about this but I think I did put it that we do not have any other option, I see no other option and they agreed.

MR PHOSA: Without giving dates, was it much earlier than the 14th of May 1982 when you mentioned that, much earlier - April rather, 14th of April?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think it was about two weeks or no, ...[intervention]

MR PHOSA: Before that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was about four days or a week before they were eliminated, if I have to make a guess.

MR PHOSA: Before you mentioned that, whether it was four weeks or a day - four days or a week before - before that, had you at these meetings these security meetings, had you ever made any mention to anyone even a hint that you think that it's now about time to eliminate these two?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: How often were these meetings coming about, in other words the meetings where you were discussing covertly these problems?  Were they at intervals of say a month or more or a year?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I think my learned friend's question is a bit confusing, is he talking about the meetings that the witness testified about - the conferences that they held as security policemen or the meetings involved in the killing of these two?  Perhaps if my learned friend wouldn't mind to qualify it.

MR PHOSA: It's okay.  No, no, I'm not referring to the meetings that you discussed about the killing these two, I'm not talking about the period five to a week before, I'm referring to meetings where previously with politicos and others, the concept of eliminating was discussed.  How often were such meetings - what was the interval between such meetings?  Just roughly, in other words how often were they coming up?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I do not know to which meetings you are referring to.

MR PHOSA: There were meetings other than the meetings between you here, there were meetings where you were with politicos, where you were with other persons and the army and there was discussion about security, about the unrest, the term: "elimination" was used - I believe that happened at various meetings, didn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I have never had meetings with politicians, we've had meetings at GBS level, at Joint Operations level where these terms have been used, I cannot recall how many instances there were.  The only one I can mention was the one that I have submitted today.  There were discussions at many occasions of elimination, it was mentioned and mention was also made of drastic action against activists and so forth.

MR PHOSA: Well, according to Mr Erasmus yesterday, the meetings I'm referring to were also attended by politicos, are you saying you are not aware of that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I did not attend such meetings where politicians were present.

MR PHOSA: And you are not aware of such meetings?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I am aware of the fact that during my period in Port Elizabeth there were a few meetings where politicians were present, I myself however was not present at these meetings.

MR PHOSA: Did you as a branch, make representations at those meetings that you were aware of where you personally were not present?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not where politicians were present, I was not attending such meetings.

MR PHOSA: So the pressure that you know of personally then, came from other policemen - you've now been talking about pressure, so that pressure came from other policemen?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Phosa, could I just clear up something here?
	If you're asked about politicians who were present and you stated that you yourself were not present but that you had heard about this, do you include amongst the politicians for example, the Minister of Police?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you not present at any meeting where the Minister of Police visited Port Elizabeth?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can remember one meeting which was held at police headquarters where Mr le Grange was present and where we just gave him a brief security overview of conditions in the Eastern Cape.  There were no other discussions that I can remember.

MR PHOSA: Correct me, the impression I get is that that was just an official visit by the Minister which you could have done elsewhere as well - not the meetings you've been talking about.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, you are correct.

MR PHOSA: So as at the time that you were arranging - perhaps agreeing on the elimination of Mthimkhulu and Madaka, you personally had no knowledge of what the attitude of the politicians would be to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phosa, he said in his evidence in chief that the influence of the politicians was from what they said on public platforms.

MR PHOSA: I know about that Mr Chairman, I have a reason for asking about this one and if it's eliminated - not killed in this sense, but removed from the discussions it will help me do my duty.  If he answers that question it will be faster, much faster and it's not an embarrassing question.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR PHOSA: It's not an embarrassing - Mr Chairman, I need that question, I just need that please, it's part of my approach in this case.  Can I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: That is the trouble, it is a slightly slant from what he in fact said in chief.  Put it though.