Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

UNKNOWN: Just tell us, do you know whether a parish house in Botshabelo had indeed been attacked with petrol bombs at some stage or other?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I did not hear anything in that regard.  I started to know that after receiving the summons, to know that something like that happened in Botshabelo.

UNKNOWN: Yes, now what church - do you go to church Mr Sesedinyane?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And what denomination do you follow?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: Roman Catholic Church Sir.

UNKNOWN: And what about your family, them as well?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: The whole family, that's the father, the mother the whole family and myself, and my whole family, they attend the Roman Catholic Church and I attended school at Roman Catholic Church.

UNKNOWN: Do you attend church in Botshabelo or in another place?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: In Bloemfontein.

UNKNOWN: Now you've said it's a lie, do you mean by that that you deny that you took part in any attack on a church or a parish?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct, it's a lie, I didn't take part in the attack of that church and I did not have a reason to attack even the same church, the Roman Catholic Church or any other church.

UNKNOWN: Do you know of or were you aware at the time of a priest that had been involved in political activities that you can remember about today?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: You mean in Botshabelo?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I did not have a knowledge that there was a priest or minister who was involved in political activities.

UNKNOWN: Your particular job at the security branch in Bloemfontein, would it be correct to say that from the middle of 1986 - July I think when you told us, you worked in a particular section on the security branch, is that correct?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And what section was that?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: It was called swart seksie/black section.

UNKNOWN: Black section.  Who worked with you in that section?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: Sergeant Mamome, myself, Motsamai, Mtyhala, I don't remember others.

UNKNOWN: The point is this, was Mr Ngo part of that section at any time that you know about?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I don't know Ngo, I've never worked with Ngo, I've only read about him in the newspaper called Volksblad, about his incidents.  I don't know him.

UNKNOWN: Isn't it a fact that when you came to the security branch in 1986, Mr Ngo wasn't in Bloemfontein any longer, so you don't know him?   You never worked with him and you don't know him?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I don't know him, I haven't worked with him.  When I arrived I didn't find him at the security branch.

UNKNOWN: Those are the questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: i have no questions Mr Chairman, Mr Visser has taken over my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stander?

MR STANDER: I don't have any questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Sesedinyane,
when did you join Bloemfontein security branch?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: On the 7th month, on the 24th 1986.

ADV MEMANI: This was in July?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: I was listening to the Sotho Chairperson,it required some thinking about.

CHAIRPERSON: He gave that evidence in chief.

ADV MEMANI: As the chair pleases.
	Now, before then, where were you working?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I was working at uniform branch in Park Road.

ADV MEMANI: And where did you live?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: In Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: Where in Bloemfontein?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: Blumanda.

ADV MEMANI: Is that far from Botshabelo?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: Blumanda is right inside Bloemfontein, it's in Addisburg Road.

ADV MEMANI: I meant Botshabelo, I'm sorry, the township here.

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I don't understand what he's saying.

ADV MEMANI: Is the area where you live very far from Botshabelo?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: Blumanda and Botshabelo are not one and the same thing, Blumanda is Blumanda, Botshabelo is Botshabelo.

ADV MEMANI: But the question I am asking, is it far from that place?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I'm not able to tell the difference.  After two blocks is Palming and Rocklands, then after that you get Blumanda.  I would say it might be - the distance between the two, it will be 15 kilometres.

ADV MEMANI: Did you not at any stage get to hear about an informer who had been exposed by students and injured?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: No, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Now did you not ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm totally confused, you told us you joined the special branch in Bloemfontein on the 24th July 1986, is that correct?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is 1986, on the 7th month, on the 24th I joined the security branch in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now I understood you to say when you were giving your evidence in chief, that you came from Bloemfontein to East London.  Did I misunderstand you?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I don't understand your question Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You were stationed in East London at some stage?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I went to East London for a three month special duty, then when I returned I joined the security police in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were in East London?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: Because it's three months I'm not able to put it into perspective.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, was it immediately before you joined the security police?  Would that have then been May, June and July of 1986?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: Let me explain.  I was stationed at Park Road, I left Park Road and then I went for three months special duty in East London.  When I returned from East London I joined the - I went directly to join the security police on the 24th July 1986.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Sesedinyane, did you know Erasmus?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I know him.

ADV MEMANI: And was he there when you arrived at security branch in 1986?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I'll not say he was there or he was not there, people come and leave.  I'll not say as to whether he was there or not but I know him.

ADV MEMANI: Don't you recall that he was already a member of Bloemfontein at that stage and actually stationed at Fountains?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: As I explained that the people would arrive and are those who leave.  I'll not say I came with him or he came before me or after me, but I know him.

ADV MEMANI: Are you trying to suggest that you are not aware of the presence of a senior policeman who was there when you joined this station and has never left that station according to what we've heard?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: If you are not working with a person directly you will not say he is there or is not there.  I know Mr Erasmus, but I was not working with him directly.

ADV MEMANI: And Shaw?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: I know him, I worked with him directly.

ADV MEMANI: And he was there when you joined Fountains?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And Coetzee?

UNKNOWN: He has said that he doesn't remember, Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: That's not in the evidence, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he been asked about Coetzee before?

UNKNOWN: Oh, I'm sorry, Coetzee ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please not interrupt Mr Visser.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon, I made a mistake.

ADV MEMANI: And Mr Coetzee?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: He was there.

ADV MEMANI: Now, do you recall whether Motsamai was there in 1986 when you joined?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr who?

ADV MEMANI: Motsamai.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: I've asked him about ...
	And Motsamai, was he there when you joined?

BUTINYANE SIMON SESEDINYANE: He was present.

ADV MEMANI: Did you also work with him?