Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Ms Goso, just for clarity, wasn't really Mr Mpahlele simply writing what he was being told to write by the witness?

MS GOSO: Perhaps we can clarify that by putting that to the applicant for him to respond.

ADV SANDI: Mr Maduna, I understood you to say that Mr Mpahlele as he was completing this form, he was writing what you were telling him to put in the form, not so?

MANDLA MADUNA: That is so.

ADV SANDI: So this thing here that says the operation was carried out on behalf of the PAC Task Force, that came from you and not from Mr Mpahlele, not so?

MANDLA MADUNA: That is so.

MS GOSO: Thank you Honourable Member of the Committee.  If that is so, can we then proceed to look at paragraph 11(b).  I have noticed that it is written down there that Sipiwe Mqweso gave the order to retaliate if attacked.  Did that also come from you?

MANDLA MADUNA: Will you please repeat the question.

MS GOSO: If the reply that is put down on paragraph 11(a) came from you and Mpahlele wrote down what you were telling him, would you agree that what is in paragraph 11(b), and I read it for you
"Sipiwe Mqweso gave the order to retaliate if attacked"
that must have also come from you?

MANDLA MADUNA: What I told Leklapa Mpahlele to do, what I told him was that I got an order to go and attack the gangster members.  It is what I told Leklapa Mpahlele.

MS GOSO: That portion, are you saying that that portion did not then come from you?

MANDLA MADUNA: Which one, what does it say?

MS GOSO: It says Sipiwe Mqweso gave the order to retaliate if attacked.

MANDLA MADUNA: A member, any member of the Task Force, when being attacked, that member will have to defend or protect himself, therefore Sipiwe Mqweso issued that order for us to go and attack the gangster members, who were attacking the PAC members.

MS GOSO: I don't know if I am reading you correctly, say so if I am not.  You seem to be saying that your order was to go and attack there, because the members of your organisation had been attacked, and that is what this was referring to?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MS GOSO: That is the end of my re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GOSO

MS GOSO: I may indicate at this stage to the Chairperson of the Committee and the members, and my colleagues, that we wish to indicate at this stage, that we do intend to call someone from the Regional Leadership of the PAC to give evidence in relation to membership, in relation to the applicant being a member of the PAC.
	Unfortunately he is out of Cape Town at the moment, but we wish to indicate at this stage that although we had indicated earlier that we were not calling any witnesses, it has since become clear that that would be an important aspect to pursue.

CHAIRPERSON: When would you be calling him?

MS GOSO: I could suggest to the Chairperson and the members of the Committee, that perhaps I would need an adjournment to call him and find out when he would be coming back.  He is in the Transkei at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: You are going to find yourself in some difficulties, we don't have endless time at our disposal, constituted as we are.

MS GOSO: Perhaps, I am trying to say Mr Chairman, to ask him to come back as soon as possible, so that I can inform the members of the Committee when he would be back in Cape Town.  I intend asking him to come back immediately, not waiting for him to come back from where he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want us to stand down now so that you can make enquiries, is that it?  Is that what you are saying?

MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  We will stand down, and as soon as you are ready to tell us, we will stand down.

MS GOSO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to that?

MR FORTUIN: No Mr Chairperson, no, no objections

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will stand down and you will call us as soon as you are ready.

MS GOSO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS STANDS DOWN
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Goso?

MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, I have during the course of the indulgence that the Committee granted me, tried to get hold of the witness we intend to call.  He is away in the Transkei attending a funeral of a relative at the moment.  We could not succeed to get hold of him, his phone is closed, although earlier on we had contacted him and he had indicated his willingness.
	Therefore the only question that is standing out at the moment is when would he be here, and we are going to try everything we can, that he should be here by Thursday, to come and give evidence to the Committee.  If he is not here by Thursday, we will find someone in the regional structure to take his place.
	I now would ask the Committee to lay to rest the applicant's case for a while.

MR MAPOMA: The next matter is set down for tomorrow Mr Chairman, starting from tomorrow up until Friday, but as I look at the applications Mr Chairman, I can just speculate Sir, that they can take about three days, those matters.  There are three applicants involved in those matters, and the incidents are quite interlinked, so there is a possibility that in three days, those applications would be getting to a finish.

CHAIRPERSON: May I suggest that if it transpires that the witness you propose calling, cannot be here and if it is at all possible for you to find some other member of this large organisation who might be able to give evidence just on this one aspect, isn't it you are really wanting to establish evidence about the membership of the applicant? If that can be achieved by some official of that organisation, could we do that?

MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is what we are currently working on.

CHAIRPERSON: Because basically all, obviously the witness is not going to be able to come and tell us details of the operation in which this applicant was involved in, it is merely a question of his membership of the organisation and if we can, if it is at all possible, to deal with that, we should endeavour to do it.

MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is what we undertake to work on.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then, you will make your best endeavours to try and see that we can achieve that please.

MS GOSO: Certainly Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Very well,  Mr Fortuin?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, I call my first witness, Depoutch Elese.

CHAIRPERSON: Can the applicant take another seat in the meanwhile?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Elese, for the purposes of the record, would you spell your full names?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Depoutch: D-E-P-O-U-T-C-H.

CHAIRPERSON: Depoutch?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And surname?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Elese.  E-L-E-S-E.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, I believe that you are a member of the ANC and that you are currently a councillor in Crossroads, but I believe you have got other titles as well, serving in other structures.  Can you just explain to the Commission what you do at the moment?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: At the present moment I am a Councillor helping Crossroads in ...[indistinct].  I am also currently serving at the Cape Metropolitan Council in the Department of Human Resources and I am also serving in the WCLGO, the Western Cape Local Government Organisation.  It is where all the local authorities are being represented, I am in the Executive at that structure.  I am still an ANC member.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, I believe you also were in exile for a time?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes, I have been a member of MK, I got my training in Angola and Kibashe.  I came back to the country, where I became involved at Branch level in Crossroads at Unathi Section.  I stayed with my uncle at that time. I was elected to be the Chairperson of the Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Chairperson of what branch?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Of the ANC at Unathi Branch, which is now known as Bundubakhi Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.