Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-17

J W MAKOM: Yes, it is the truth, because according to the law,
after we have completed our jobs we leave the detainee in jail then the Station Commander in the police station of that particular prison, if Mr Simandla requested a doctor, he was meant to have been taken to the doctor.   It is the truth that we left him without care or medication at the time.

MR BRINK: And in so far as Miss Msutwana is concerned is it correct that the Station Master did at some stage ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Station Commander, not Station Master.

MR BRINK: I beg your pardon, Station Commander, did he arrange for this victim to be taken to hospital?  She was in fact transported to hospital, but one or other or all of you went to the hospital and brought her back before a doctor could attend to her.

J W MAKOM: I cannot dispute that Sir, but that did not come to
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR BRINK	46	MR MAKOM
my knowledge.

MR BRINK: I see.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

HASSAN MALL: Mr Hole, any re-examination?

MR HOLE: I have none.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HOLE
WITNESS EXCUSED
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MR BRINK	47	BRIG SIMANDLA

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  You are excused.  Do you want to proceed with the next applicant?

MR HOLE: That was our last applicant, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I merely want to give an opportunity to Brig Simandla to make a statement.   If you wouldn't mind Brigadier just go to the other side and introduce yourself.
	I do not think there is any need for this gentleman to be sworn in.   He is not giving evidence.  He just wants to ask questions about reconciliation.

HASSAN MALL: Perhaps you can start off by getting his full name for the purpose of the record?

MR BRINK: Would you give the Committee your full names Brigadier?
BONISILE DAVID SIMANDLA

MR BRINK: You are the gentleman who has been referred to during the course of this application as having been assaulted during the problems which arose concerning these applications.  Is that correct?

BRIG SIMANDLA: Yes Sir that is correct.

MR BRINK: Would you tell the Committee what your
attitude is towards the grant or refusal of amnesty to these three applicants who testified this morning?

BRIG SIMANDLA: As I was working in the Ciskei the circumstances under which the Ciskeian Police worked was abnormal.   They did ill-treat people and torture people but there is a fact that must be known, they enjoyed it.   Even if they were instructed that they should beat people up they were not given instructions to per se to beat them.   They were just merely given instructions to investigate about the truth.
	I would assume that they were taken for training and given EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR BRINK	48	BRIG SIMANDLA
proper training as to how to get information from people, without torturing the people.
	I want to talk specifically about my case.   I want to dispute the fact that I was Head of Prison at the time.  I was a Commander.  I had nothing to do with the prisons.  There was a Head of Prison in jail.  They did not investigate his situation at all.  
	I want to refer to the issue about the keys.  I reported to them.  They were meant to give a report to Noqela and Pasha.  They did not go to them.  Therefore, they were meant to come to me directly.  ...(intervention)

MR BRINK: Sorry Brigadier, I don't want to interrupt you,
the Committee is really concerned to ascertain whether or not these applicants, in the light of the evidence they have given, and the information they have provided should be granted amnesty, And I think what the Committee is more interested to hear from you is what your attitude is and whether you would like the Committee to make a recommendation that would be referred to the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee, so that possibly damages can be obtained for you, by reason of your previous assaults.   This is merely to find out what your attitude is towards amnesty.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Brink have you canvassed Mr Simandla's view with regard to the substance of the application, whether he wants to oppose the application?  I am just basing my view on his remarks.

MR BRINK: I did canvass it with him earlier, as I indicated to the Committee at an earlier stage but he indicated that in the interests of reconciliation he did not oppose the application, but he indicated firstly the whole truth hadn't been told.   I did not want to call him to give details as to that but merely EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR BRINK	49	BRIG SIMANDLA
to satisfy you that he does not oppose the grant for amnesty.

HASSAN MALL: If he gives evidence which goes contrary to what the applicants have said, one or other of the applicants has said it may then be necessary for him to be cross-examined in order to find out which version is acceptable.  He has not taken an oath to give evidence in that regard and if it is still your wish to confine his comments to the issue that you talk about then perhaps he should get going with that.

MR BRINK: Yes.   Would you indicate to the Committee Brigadier, what your attitude is.  You indicated to me this morning, you will recollect, that you thought although you were not happy and you believe these people enjoyed doing what they did to you you thought in the interests of reconciliation you would not oppose amnesty.  I am quite neutral in this affair, but I would like to have your views.

BRIG SIMANDLA: As I said I am not opposing this application, because of our country, South Africa, and its endeavour to reach a point of reconciliation, I am not disputing or against the amnesty.

MR BRINK: Thank you Brigadier.

BRIG SIMANDLA: Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much.
BRIG SIMANDLA EXCUSED
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR HOLE	50	ADDRESS

HASSAN MALL: Yes, where do we proceed from here Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I do not propose calling any more, or any witnesses for that matter.  I had discussed the matter with Miss Msutwana
through the briefer with her and I do not propose calling witnesses.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Hole?

MR HOLE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Are these the only clients that you represent?

MR HOLE: These are the only people  I represent in this application.

HASSAN MALL: Do you wish to address us?

MR HOLE: If I may.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, please.