Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-28

MR PAPIER: Thank you, Judge.  My instructions are that  my client, Mr Salie wishes to, in fact regards this as his last opportunity to be able to place before the TRC process and particularly this Committee, his respects with regard to operatives that had fallen in his unit.  It is so that evidence was placed before the Human Rights Violation Committee, which is now closed Your Honour.  Judge, evidence placed before this Committee that has a bearing on this unit, my instructions are that Mr Salie, nor the unit or any operatives were not given an opportunity to respond.  They were not informed of the evidence placed before the Human Rights Violation Committee and to that end wish to read into the record pages 4, 5, 6 and 7, as a last opportunity and in a last attempt to in fact honour those operatives who had fallen and also to in fact contextualise the, or to record the integrity of the unit which is an issue, that is held in high esteem by my clients collectively.  So I beg your permission ...(intervention))

CHAIRPERSON: Indulgence.

MR PAPIER: Indulgence, to allow us to place that on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Well a few things come to mind Mr Papier. Firstly it is unfortunate that your clients were not  able to say what they want to say in another section of this Commission.  The regulations and the practice of this Committee is such that we cannot provide a forum for what ought to have been said in another Committee.  As you will appreciate, we are the only surviving Committee of the Commission, that's not of our own doing I would like to argue, but really we're under pressure to complete our work.  Aside from that, we strictly work to the rule of relevance and now if you wish to comment on my following comment, please do so when I'm finished.  The real test here is whether what is contained in these three or four pages are matters which are either going to detract or improve the application.  In my view it doesn't, one way or the other and therefore I must conclude that that is irrelevant.  The bigger test of all is that I must protect the integrity of this Committee from being used as a forum to say something that is irrelevant to this Committee and I again repeat, it is unfortunate that the clients weren't given an opportunity to say it where it should have been said and maybe it can be taken up by you to the members of the Commission, but certainly I am not, I am loath to grant permission to put this on record because in fact it's not going to improve your client's case at all.

MR PAPIER: As Your Worship pleases.  Thank  you Judge.  May I just be afforded one minute to take instructions on the issue?  Thank you Judge.  Thank you Commissioners.  I have taken instructions and my instructions are to appreciate the view expressed and we will take it up with the relevant structure in an attempt to place on record what our response is.  Thank you Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: I really appreciate that.  Are you done?

MR PAPIER: We are done, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PAPIER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.  If you would just grant me a moment, I just want to check something with my client.
Thank you Honourable Chairperson, there is nothing except to place on record save that the victim Mr Bartlett, was in fact only 20 years old at the time of this incident and not 24 as you have stated.  Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MOEGAMAT ANEEZ SALIE: I stand corrected, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't suppose you've got any re-examination Mr Papier?

MR PAPIER: None thank you.  Thank you Judge.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PAPIER

ADV SIGODI: There is just one aspect that I would like to clarify with you.  In your capacity as Regional Commander of the MK, did you not consider the fact that training young people with very very lethal weapons could be dangerous?  I'm not saying that you should not have trained, but I'm concerned that some of the members of that unit were in standard 8, wasn't that a factor that you considered, you know giving them such lethal weapons to use?

MOEGAMAT ANEEZ SALIE: Yes, Your Honour, we did and it is correct that Vanessa in particular was very young, but you will know that it is a feature of our lives under apartheid that we grew up very, very quickly, so a Standard 8 girl in Bontheuwel High, with all due respect, Your Honour, is far more advanced than a Standard 8 girl from Sea Point High or Bishops or something like that, so our children were forced to take on responsibilities way beyond their years, Your Honour.  We didn't go to seek out Standard 8 children.  Vanessa was somebody who had presented herself first and foremost as a very disciplined person who could keep a secret, if I could put it so crudely, Your Honour.  That was the first criteria.  How suited was this person to underground work?  Now we didn't, once we recruited them, we didn't just place weapons and explosives in their hands.  Vanessa testified that her role in this blast was supplementary really.  Her job was to go along, to gain experience, to go through the threshold of carrying out an operation.  That's how our operators worked, Your Honour, that they went through different stages, they went through different thresholds.  When Sidney went with Colleen Williams on previous operations, Colleen had detonated the mine.  Colleen would previously have played the role that Vanessa did and so it was a very gradual, it was a very staged approach, so it wasn't a question of us giving Vanessa limpet grenade and AKs and stuff like that.  They went through a stage  Your Honour and as I have testified before, our emphasis was on avoiding civilian targets, casualties at all times, so the reply to your question, Your Honour is, yes, it does seem quite shocking and startling and irresponsible to have recruited the Standard 8 school girl to be part of an MK unit, but Your Honour, the planting of a bomb, or the firing of an AK is 5% of the work, there is an enormous amount of work that went into this operation at the Bontheuwel Rent Office and we needed all sorts of people to do that.  There are some places where only schoolgirls could enter.  There are some places where schoolboys would ask them no questions and let me just assure this Hearing that there were no other Standard 8 school children in this part of our Detachment, but really Your Honour, there was a multitude of tasks to be performed in an operation, we shouldn't just think of MK or military work as bomb blasts or armed attacks.  That really was 5 or even less percent of the work and that's where people like Vanessa came in.  Vanessa was somebody whom we could trust and we did trust her with our lives.  Vanessa was somebody who grew up in Bontheuwel, who was passionate about justice, but who wasn't somebody who shouted from the rooftops Your Honour and she was very, very far advanced for her age.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  You're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge.  That is also our case.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I do not intend to lead any evidence thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, are there any submissions you want to make?

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge.  Just very briefly.

ADV BOSMAN: May I, just before you commence with that, you were asked by the Chairperson to just clarify exactly for what your clients are applying for an perhaps you could just preface your submissions by telling us what the actual application is for.