Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

MR VISSER: Now if we go to page 6 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Your application on page 5 says, if I read it
"She was responsible during 1986/1987 for acts of terror."
Fourth paragraph.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.  That was while she was still in South Africa.  Because of the fact that she gave evidence against her unit, she left the country and received training abroad.

MR VISSER: It's clear Mr Chairman, there appears to be two phases.  First is the phase closely associated with the Ramlakan case, she then goes out, receives ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But it's the first phase we've been told she was totally untrained?

MR VISSER: What's the question Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Totally untrained at that time.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So a totally untrained person had control over acts of terror committed internally.  How did she come to have control over anyone if she was totally untrained herself.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, one has to look at her position she held within the APMC of Butterfly.  If one could call it - she lived in the commanding house, if one could call it that, and Dr Ramlakan lived there himself, George Fakude lived there and she acted as a type of secretary and she knew about all the instructions that were given and she also knew about all the activities of the different units and the commanding structure had trust in her.  When they were accused, she was the only one who stayed behind as such and she had all this knowledge about who was involved and that's why she got all these people together and regrouped them and from that position she continued doing acts of terror.

MR MALAN: Are you trying to say in this paragraph, the third last one on page 5 of the bundle, does this refer to her activities after the Ramlakan case started or before?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, she was arrested 23rd January 1985, she was released on Section 29 early in January 1986.  The rest of the arrested people as well as those who were later charged were still in detention and I cannot remember if there were any of them who got released on bail but she was released early in January 1986, out of the Section 29 detention.

MR MALAN: Now if one looks at the charge sheet, you had the intention to use her as a witness in the case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And the State gave notice to this extent despite the fact that you knew that she was at the head of all these activities?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: When they prepared the case and during the preparation thereof, I think halfway through the year the case was already prepared and it started and Mr van Schalkwyk could help when exactly they started the case.  But her notice as a witness was already determined from the start, that's why she got released.  The activities of units who stayed behind only escalated during the middle of that year and you'll see that in Exhibit A.  When we started looking for her as a witness she was already gone or she was no longer available or we couldn't find her.

MR MALAN: Fine, you may continue.

MR VISSER: On page 6 you jump to the interrogation and I want to take you back to the facts surrounding that which had happened.  Before that time and General Steyn refers to that on page 38 and he says that there was a submission made to him by Taylor and yourself, can you remember that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Please tell us about it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, Zandile was at that stage already the commander in Swaziland.  Her activities there were monitored by informers and her activities and instructions, two people in South Africa were also reported by means of technical abilities and informers.  We knew so much about her that by times we intercepted weaponry which was meant for units which was in South Africa.  Units that were sent into the country by her who were involved in skirmishes with the police and were arrested or killed and with this knowledge that we had and further planning that was made by her, submission was made to General Steyn at that time, Brigadier Steyn.

MR VISSER: And what was the purpose of this submission, what did you tell him?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Firstly that we had to abduct Zandile from Swaziland and that we have to attempt to recruit her as an informant.

MR VISSER: And did you think that you would be successful to recruit her as an informant having regard for her attitude in the Ramlakan matter?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it was not written in stone that she would be recruited and at that stage it was discussed by myself and Colonel Taylor and we informed Brigadier Steyn that the possibility that she had to be eliminated if the recruitment process did not succeed.

MR VISSER: Just hold on, are you trying to say that in October of 1988 you regarded her as so important, such a key person that you decided that she had to be eliminated?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: We considered that, yes Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you also stated that you decided to try and recruit her as an informant and see what happens?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Would she be of any value as an informer?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Absolutely Chairperson and from her position in Swaziland, if she had succeeded, she would have been worth much more to us.

MR VISSER: She was outside your jurisdiction at that point, wasn't she?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you could not act against her in the normal course of your activities to arrest her?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Is this where the idea of the abduction came about?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson because one could not get the commander to come to the Republic.

MR VISSER: What was Steyn's reaction to that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: After our submission he agreed with our proposal and we continued with the implementation thereof, we received approval for arranging the abduction of Zandile.

MR VISSER: Let's just have a look who was involved in this operation, what were the names of the persons who were involved in this operation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The persons involved was Colonel Taylor, myself, Colonel Vorster from Pietermaritzburg, Colonel Sam du Preez, Warrant Officer Laurie Wasserman and Sergeant Brand Visagie who prepared the vehicle with which we abducted her.

MR MALAN: Excuse me, from where are you reading this?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: This is my application for amnesty.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Excuse me Mr Chairman, on page 38 the names are all stated there, in Brigadier Steyn's application.

MR VISSER: And you have read from Brigadier Steyn's application and you did not mention his name because he did not name himself there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.