Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, the last person I'm going to call is Paulos Mohape and he is the one Mr Chairman, his application would be held tentatively, provisionally until the confirmation that he did apply.

CHAIRPERSON: The same might apply to the one we have just completed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to taking the oath?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names please?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Mohlolo Paulos Mohape.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the document handed in and signed by the applicant on a number of sheets?  That is a statement from him, is that common cause?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't know about the statement, it's just that it came up during the questioning when the Committee was trying to verify the signature of the applicant and there was a statement handed in. He also signed the statement.  I haven't had a sight of it except when it was passed.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should have a sight of it.  I've just glanced at it now and it appears to deal in some detail with how the weapons were hidden, where they were hidden and when they were hidden.  And it's a matter which I think should be investigated fully and compared with the other statement he has made.  I am now going to entrust the copy to you, the original document to you.  Perhaps it would be preferable to have photostat copies made and the photostat be given.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, will that then be admitted as Exhibit D?

CHAIRPERSON: It is Exhibit D as far as the - no, Exhibit E, as far as the - Exhibit D is the specimen signature we obtained here.  This will be Exhibit E as far as the signatures are concerned and then I think counsel should be given an opportunity to consider what is contained in it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before I proceed with this applicant, I was looking at the time, maybe the Committee would make a ruling.  This morning when the applicants came to court they came to me and they told me that they had problems yesterday, they didn't have a place to sleep until this morning they were able to wash, even this morning.  That is why they also came late to court and they were treated badly yesterday because they were told that they came late and everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, is this in a prison?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible] prison Mr Chairman.  So now that problem, because they did not sleep yesterday because they didn't have a place to sleep.  In fact ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This unfortunately is a problem that I have met up with before, that there appear to be arrangements made to cope with accused persons who are returned from court, that the prisons make arrangement to receive them but it does appear that in certain prisons, and this may be one of them, there are not satisfactory arrangements to receive other people who arrive there later.  Do you know what time they have to be there by?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Could you perhaps enquire?

MR STEENKAMP: I will enquire quickly Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because last time, yesterday we sat till half past four which is very much later than usual.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've arranged that the prison will be able to admit or take care of these people at any time, it's in your hands Mr Chairperson but I've spoken to the person of Correctional Services now.  Yesterday apparently there was a logistical difficulty but that's been taken car of for today.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we will go on until 4 o'clock but we won't sit later than four.  I think that is the time courts normally adjourn and that's when the logistics appear to be adjusted to.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Please assure your clients that if they have any further problems of this nature they are to inform you as soon as possible and then you will please inform me and I will take what steps we can to make sure it doesn't happen again.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Sorry Mr Chairman, it seems as if I want to make sure whether they have the copy of the - Mr Chairman, it seems as if there is a problem regarding the affidavit of the applicant.  I don't know what happened because they were done together with those which are in front of the Committee.  I don't know what happened.  Sorry Mr Chair, it seems as if they managed to get hold the affidavit, thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mohape, there is an affidavit in front of you and the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee.  Do you confirm that the affidavit ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Which one?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll use this.  The other one relates to the application, the submission of the application.  I will use the other one which is the shorter one.

CHAIRPERSON: The shorter one?  Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mohape, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee.  Do you confirm that the affidavit in front of you was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Yes, that is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I would like you to go to paragraph 5 of your affidavit
"I confirm that I was arrested on the 25th of November 1993 and was convicted and sentenced on the 2nd of June 1995 for possession of arms and ammunition"
Now can you tell the Committee how did it come that you were in possession of these arms and ammunition that you were convicted of?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: I will explain it this way.  These weapons belonged to ...[indistinct], that is the People's Liberation Army.  I got hold of them because we could not give them to Mazete because there were many people living with Mazete, that is his sisters.  So he asked me where we can put these weapons because he was the person who was involved the task force like myself.
	I decided that I would take these weapons to my shack because I was living alone in that shack.  So we went to fetch those weapons and we took them to my shack.  That is where I hid them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: As a follow-up to that point, when you took the firearms, were you together with Mazete?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Yes, I was together with Mazete.

MR MBANDAZAYO: With whom did you hide the weapons in your shack?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: I was together with Mazete.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know these weapons or did he tell you where they were coming from and how did they come into his possession?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: As the person who had already had information regarding the task force I asked him, I asked him about the whereabouts of these weapons, where they come from and then he said they were brought by the members of APLA.  They were given to him - as I've already explained I was living alone, then I accepted and then I agreed that I would go and hide them at my place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know that these weapons were used in the attack at Wesselsbron Supermarket?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: I did not know but I was suspicious because I heard from the radios, from the television, that this must have been APLA's actions because that supermarket was near to the township where we live.

MR MBANDAZAYO: All what you are telling the Committee is that you did not know that, you only suspected?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: That is true, I only suspected, I did not know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Sir, you were never a member of APLA I take it?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: I was a member of the task force.

MR STEENKAMP: What was the role of Mr Mazete in the task force, do you know?

MOHLOLO PAULOS MOHAPE: Yes, I know because he was a commander in our branch in Monyake.

MR STEENKAMP: But Mr Mazete never told the Committee this, he said he was also a task force member, he never said he was a commander.  Do you know why this is?