Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now if you do have the application before you, I want you to have a look at page 52 of your application.   Or perhaps, Mr Chairman, with your permission, more particularly page 53.

CHAIRPERSON: It's page 52 the last paragraph going over to 53.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you see that?

CHAIRPERSON: It's an extract from the trial court record.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 53 of the paginated pages.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact it's of the judgment of the trial court.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let me take you a little bit back.   In your evidence here today, you stated that the purpose of going to Ledig was specifically to go and rob the arms in the police station?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And that was arranged at meeting No 2 in August, am I correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where the plan was just to go there and get guns and come back?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.   And you remember at your trial evidence was given by yourself in the criminal court in Mogwase?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, I remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now if you look at page 53, I will read the salient parts for you for convenience, you said
"He told Vusi and his other friends that he did not have any money to go to Sun City to gamble."
Now this was yourself:-
"He then said, oh money is no problem because they have money."
Now from this, and right through the record, the evidence in the criminal trial was that the purpose of going to Rustenburg was to go to Sun City to go and gamble, do you remember you said that at the trial?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, I remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: No, that is a lie, I lied there.   I would not tell the former Bophuthatswana magistrate Court that I went there to attack their police station.   They would find me guilty and sentence me to death.   I would be taking myself to court.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Later in your evidence you testified that you were the ANC supporter, am I correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Which evidence are we referring to, are we talking to the Mogwase evidence, or here?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In court you never told them that you are an ANC supporter, but here?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Am I correct to state that if you become an ANC supporter, you may have been influenced by certain members of ANC in your area, or a particular branch in that area?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct, sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now which branch of the ANC were you supporting in Johannesburg, I mean in Gauteng, let me put it that way?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I would like to explain it this way, the majority of the youth in Soweto in particular, Soweto was divided according to Xhosas and Azanian student movements.    The ANC policies I became aware of whilst I was still doing standard seven if I can remember correctly, because I was quite a prominent figure in our school regarding ANC issues.  Therefore I was not active in a branch, as such, but what I want to explain to you is that we supported ANC as early as 1984 right up until then.   I'm trying to answer you, but I don't want to answer your question in the context in which you ask, because I don't want to align myself with any specific branch, but just trying to explain to you how I supported ANC.   I supported it from school level, and I was an SRC member as well.   The SRC was communicating with the ANC and it was in close links with it at that time when the organisations were banned.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I don't know whether you've answered my question.  I'll repeat my question.   Which branch of the ANC were you supporting at that time.   I know if you support a branch, you're supporting the whole ANC wherever it may be, but you are a member or a supporter of a particular branch.   That's all what I'm looking for.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Let me rather respond to your question in this manner, the ANC branch that I supported was the Diepkloof branch.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What year was that?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Your question seems to be quite difficult, because I don't support an organisation in terms of a year, I've been the supporter of the ANC since I've became aware of it, I cannot actually say in which year did I support it, because I've been a supporter of it since I've known it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now at the time when this incident was planned, with Makarov, Motepa and others, there was an ANC branch in Diepkloof, not so?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's correct.  ANC has got branches in almost... (intervention).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, don't run all over, I'm just being specific.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: ...every community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now who was the chairperson of the ANC branch at that time?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Are you referring to the chairperson of our branch?   Please repeat your question?

ADV MOTATA: Mr Ross, if I may be of assistance, did you attend any branch meeting out in Diepkloof, ANC that is?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: And whilst you attended, who was the chairman?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I was not saying yes, when I was actually saying "Ja".   I was not attending the ANC branch meetings.   I'm trying to answer your first question, I never attended any branch meetings of the ANC.   The only meeting I attended was SDU meetings.

ADV MOTATA: Now when you say you favoured the ANC Diepkloof branch, what was the attraction when you never attended any meeting there?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is what I was trying to explain to this gentleman, I was not supporting via a branch, we were just supporting the ANC as an organisation, not under the jurisdiction of any branch.   We were attending street defence unit meetings in the COSAS room in Diepkloof, we were not well organised to the extent to that we could attend ANC branch meetings.   If there were people who attended those meetings, might have been Comrade Motepa, but we were just restricted to the bottom level.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Mr Mpshe, you can continue.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now as a follow-up on what you've just said, will I then be correct to conclude that you did not attend the ANC branch meetings, you were concerned with the self - what do you call them - the street defence units, which would then mean that the street defence units were another entity outside the operations or the ambit of the ANC, because it was more on social basis, will I be correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I differ with you on that, because although I was not attending those meetings, it does not mean that people like Comrade Makarov were not attending them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Leave Makarov alone.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I used to attend the street defence unit meetings, not the ANC branch meetings.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just for record purposes, Mr Ross, it can be noted by the committee that you never attended ANC branch meetings in Diepkloof, neither did you even know the chairman of the ANC branch in Diepkloof, is that correct?   You know the reason why you don't know him.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I would be making a mistake if I would say I know him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you were answering one of my questions, you stated that you supported ANC when you were still at school and right through the years you knew about the beliefs, you know a lot about the charter and you were called charterists, you remember that?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which charter were you referring to, which charter are you talking about?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I was referring to the Freedom Charter.   I'm not prepared to phrase the Freedom Charter as is, but what I want to say is that it refers, it says that the people shall govern.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that what the Freedom Charter says?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Pardon?