Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

DR TSOTSI: You haven't really answered my question.  I won't press it further.  I want to find out whether the removal of Brig Gqozo from power forcibly was not an act of mutiny, never mind by whom, was that not an act of mutiny by those who committed that act?

MR NOMPOZOLO: It was not an act of mutiny because, up to now, what the evidence is all about, it's about junior officers taking hostage senior officers.

DR TSOTSI: I understand that, but that's a separate matter for me.  That's another matter altogether as far as I'm concerned.  I understand your argument but the applicant has not shown that your clients were involved in the kidnapping or any other offence, that's what I understand your argument to be.  But I'm not happy about your references to mutiny itself or that.  Now if in fact the removal of Gqozo from power was an act of mutiny and the applicant here associated himself politically with that act, never mind whether or not he actually took part in the actual physical removal, if he associated himself with that act, would he not be, on the principal of common purpose, be in fact involved in that act himself?

MR NOMPOZOLO: It can if it was the mutiny he was applying for amnesty for.  My point is that he is applying for mutiny which he has not even committed.

DR TSOTSI: Why do you say he has not committed, he says he has committed mutiny and you say he has not committed mutiny.  Why do you say that?

MR NOMPOZOLO: On his evidence he has not committed any mutiny.

DR TSOTSI: Oh, I see.  Okay.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now is it correct Mr Mfene that when you pleaded guilty in court, the mutiny which was referred to in court was the mutiny in connection with the police and it had nothing to do with Brig Gqozo and the army?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Brig Gqozo and the police and anything that was being discussed on that particular day was around those issues, we were there because of such issues, all of us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now I will read to you what is contained on the charge sheet from the Zwelitsha Regional Court where you were charged and convicted.
"Count 51:  That the accused are guilty of mutiny in contravention of section 3(a) and 3(b) of schedule 3 to the Police Act No 32/1983 in that upon or about the 22nd to the 23rd of March 1994 and at or near police college Bisho in the district of Zwelitsha the accused, being members of the Ciskeian police, did conspire with or incite other persons to mutiny or to cause a mutiny, riot or revolt the police force and did join the mutiny, riot or revolt in the police force."
Is that what you pleaded guilty to?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: When I pleaded guilty I looked at this case this way, that the people who were laying charges were police.  They were laying charges against the movements that were done by the other police, the police who did not bother themselves to ask and get necessary details concerning this movement and the intention of this movement.  We knew our intention was to remove that man.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you confirm whether you know or you had a direct act which actually reached Brig Gqozo, that is you as an individual?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: You mean an act that was directed to Brig Gqozo or something that actually affected him?  Will you please clarify?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I am referring to you as an individual.  Do you know whether an act which was committed by you did actually reach Brig Gqozo?  By you as an individual.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: How did it reach him?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I thought you were going to ask this way, which act was that and I would answer from the - are you still asking that question, which offence is it or how did that reach him?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, how did it reach him?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: He left his position as a leader of Ciskei.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because of your act as an individual?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, as an individual together with the other police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What is it that you did which caused him to resign?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I showed the other policemen that if we want what was taking place in Ciskei should come to an end, we should do what we did on the 22nd of March in the college.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Nompozolo, when you ask a question then the interpreters interpret it to the applicant, the applicant then answers, I assume it's in Xhosa, and then they interpret their answer to us, so we are listening to the answer when it comes from the interpreter.   By that time you are already busy asking a second question because you can listen directly to the answer, you understand the original answer that is being given and therefore you respond immediately.  So we are losing out on a number of your questions unfortunately.  You're going to have to leave a bit of time for the interpretation.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Now what is it that you did that caused Brig Gqozo to resign?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: We had a discussion with policemen.  I influenced the other policemen.  We discussed privately the facts that affected the other people who were very close to Gqozo.  That is the reason that actually made him to leave his office as the leader of Ciskei.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What then did you influence police to do?  That is the police who were on your side.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I would ask for permission not to answer that question.

MR NOMPOZOLO: On what basis are you saying that, are you asking for that?  Is it because it is going to incriminate you?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The reason for that is because the charge sheet from the Regional Court from Zwelitsha, the one that you just read to the Commission, you realised after reading that I was charged and I was found guilty and now you want to get it from me what offence I did, what is it that I did to influence other police.  I think that is going to waste the time of the Commission.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But are you aware that you are supposed to make a full disclosure so that you can get amnesty?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, I do understand that.  I also understand the fact that it is necessary for me to see with my eyes and to think with my brains and know very well that I have mentioned this and it is even clear from the Commission and you even told that to the Commission when you were reading the charge sheet.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you are not going to make the full disclosure as you are required?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I had already asked for the permission not to answer that and to just go on to something else.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mfene do you mean that you have already answered the question?  I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.  Are you saying that you've already answered that question or are you saying that it's clear from the charge sheet what you have done?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I think I had already answered that question in the sense that I had mentioned that I influenced the other policemen and the other policemen did not know the solution, did not know how to remove Brig Gqozo there.  I sat down with them and discussed with them.  The gentleman wants me to explain again what is it that I did to influence the other policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that you played a leading role, you took the initiative in unseating Brig Gqozo amongst your colleagues?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nompozolo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Now what is it that you influenced the police to do?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: What I did, I told them that it is time that our superiors, who have been calling us for meetings and they would postpone those meetings, and I told them that it was time that if this particular meeting was not postponed, it was time to take a certain step.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Like what?  What was the step which you told them to take?