Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

ADV D POTGIETER: And then you returned to New Brighton and you went back to Redhouse and then you went to St George's Stand again.

MR J VAN ZYL: From Brighton, one doesn't have to go to Redhouse to get to Bluewater Bay, one can take the freeway because it's relatively close.  It's a short distance from New Brighton to Bluewater Bay.

ADV D POTGIETER: So you could take the Uitenhage road from New Brighton, and turnoff to Redhouse.

MR J VAN ZYL: Or go through the township.  There were many roads one could have taken.

ADV D POTGIETER: It must have been quite an expansive time.

MR J VAN ZYL: Well, it went on the whole night.

ADV D POTGIETER: Yes, that's the question.  Wasn't it a far riskier method to follow, than using a small holding which is isolated and not in a public place where you could do your job.

MR J VAN ZYL: As I said to you before, it did occur, but the instruction was that it should appear to be a vigilante attack and it
would have to occur in the usual places where the type of Azapo attack would have occurred.

ADV D POTGIETER: Very well, I think we can look at this aspect further once we have examined the environment.  I think that it might be that we would have to return to you later.
	Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl I would just like to ask you a number of questions regarding the relationships among the members of the Security Branch.
	Am I correct in my deduction that you were people who were chosen as people who could trust each other.  There had to be a certain measure of team spirit and where information would be treated confidentially?

MR J VAN ZYL: I do not understand on which level you are referring.

UNKNOWN: You stated that you phoned Colonel Erasmus and that you asked him whether you would be acceptable to him - something in that line - and he indicated that he would want you at the Port Elizabeth Branch.
	That is where I am making my deduction from because you were chosen to a degree, as people who could adjust to one another and trust one another.

MR J VAN ZYL: Not chosen as such, but it happened like that sometimes, and I did contact Colonel Erasmus, I don't know if I asked him if I was acceptable or not, I asked him whether there was a vacancy I could fill.
	I was a Captain at the time, and if there was no vacancy for a Captain or a position that a Captain could fill, he would not have been able to accommodate me.

UNKNOWN: What were the relationships like.  Did you get along with each other fairly well, did you trust one another.

MR J VAN ZYL: In the security branch?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR J VAN ZYL: As normal as any other set-up would have been, sometimes there were people who differed greatly from one another.
	And there might have been those who didn't get along with one another.

UNKNOWN: Who would you have said didn't get along with each other?
	Can you recall anything?

MR J VAN ZYL: Well there wasn't anything serious.  There were just different types of personalities which were thrown together just as in any other situation.

UNKNOWN: Well, Colonel Winter was in Cradock, but he was in the Eastern Cape area.  How did he fit in with the rest of the security officers here in the Eastern Cape?
	Was he acceptable?  Did you like him?  Did you talk of him?

MR J VAN ZYL: Well, I think he was completely accepted by everybody that I knew.

UNKNOWN: And do you know what Colonel de Kock's attitude towards him was, because they were all in the security community of the country?

MR J VAN ZYL: Well, I do not know how it was when Mr Winter was in Cradock, when we were in the operational area.
	The problem is that when one is in the operational area, one is a member of a combat team and it would happen sometimes that even Mr de Kock and I wouldn't see each other for quite a while, because we were constantly moving in and out of various areas where we worked.
	It wasn't always easy to summarise how different people got along with one another.  I had no reason not to believe that they didn't get along with one another.

UNKNOWN: Would you say that during the Cradock incident and before, the relationship between Winter and De Kock was good?

MR J VAN ZYL: At that stage, I had no reason to think that it was not good.

UNKNOWN: And your relationship with De Kock?  Was that good?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: This bothers me.  For what reason would you misinform Mr de Kock regarding this incident?

MR J VAN ZYL: I am speculating.  It was just sometimes done that way to protect oneself and to protect that person.

UNKNOWN: So you didn't trust your colleagues entirely?

MR J VAN ZYL: Well, if the person wasn't involved in an operation frequently, not.

UNKNOWN: But then why did you discuss the operation if you didn't want to make it generally known.  Why would you discuss it?  With or without disinformation.
	It bothers me.  If you could just clarify that.

MR J VAN ZYL: I do not know why.

UNKNOWN: Honourable Chairperson, before my learned colleague proceeds....

CHAIRPERSON: Terribly sorry, I promised you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr van Zyl.  I won't be long with you.
	There was just one point that I needed clarity on.  You stated in your application that after the operation was completed, that very morning you reported to Mr du Plessis.
	Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you recall at what stage you then reported with in the company of Mr du Plessis, reported to Mr Snyman?

MR J VAN ZYL: It was during the course of that morning.

UNKNOWN: Can you then explain why Colonel Snyman says in his application that the last he heard of the operation was when he heard about it in the newspapers.
	That wouldn't accord with your version that you actually reported to him that morning.  Why would he have read about it in the papers if he knew about it?
	He says the first time he heard about the completion of the operation was that morning in the papers.

MR J VAN ZYL: That is impossible, Mr Chairman.
	I spoke to him personally that morning.

UNKNOWN: All right.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr van Zyl, I initially approached your testimony in Afrikaans, so let us remain that way.  Just to touch on a few issues that my colleagues referred to.  The meetings to which my colleague, Mr Bizos, referred where Deputy Minister Vlok and a number of generals and brigadiers attended, as well as a number of Colonels in the intelligence services we refer to the list of those who attended.  It states that it was a shortened minute of the GVS meeting. 
	Do you know what that it?

MR J VAN ZYL: I would say that it goes for Joint Safety Centre.

MR BOOYENS: At that stage, did you have any knowledge of the JSC and its activities?

MR J VAN ZYL: I do not think so.  I cannot recall exactly when I first received knowledge of it, but at that stage, I didn't know of the existence of the centre.

MR BOOYENS: And this meeting was supposed to have taken  place at the Police Headquarters in Port Elizabeth?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And my learned friend has referred you to a number of names.  You looked at the names, there was no-one from Port Elizabeth there?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.

MR BOOYENS: Then if you look at exhibit "A"...
(Tape 8, side 2)
	We will later lead the evidence of some of your colleagues, perhaps they were more familiar with the administration than you were.  But as you understood it, I think you touched on this briefly, but just to elaborate.  It is correct that the GL next to these names signifies that there was no file on those people.

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: If head office sent you a report containing the letters GL, that would indicate that at national level, they had no file.

MR J VAN ZYL: This is a branch report and it indicates that the branch or the indexing system (this was before computerisation of information) did not have a file on this person.