Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm talking about Sibongele's house where you first went to look for her.  Was the furniture broken there or windows broken or what, or taken?  Any furniture taken do you know?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: No I don't have knowledge about that house.

CHAIRPERSON: If someone had carried furniture away there when you people left would you have seen it?  One of your colleagues had taken furniture from the house at which you first looked for Sibongele, surely you would have seen your colleague, one of your colleagues carrying the furniture?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: I did not see anyone carrying anything because most of the time we used to stay there at Unit F, that was regarded as a danger zone, we did not know anything about that place.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  You have applied for amnesty for a murder and an attempted murder, is that correct?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Is that the murder of Sibongele and the attempted murder of Doris?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: The shooting of Sibongele and the death of her sibling.

MR SWANEPOEL: Well it seems that Doris is still alive.  I'm asking you whose murder and whose attempted murder are you applying for amnesty for.

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Sibongele's death.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, how do you know that Sibongele is dead?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: As far as I know Sibongele is not dead, she came back to the section and he met with the Committee after the elections.  She is the person that I used to see in that section.

CHAIRPERSON: So why are you applying for her death then, for her murder?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: I applied for amnesty concerning her sister or brother and the attempted murder on Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think it's common cause that Sibongele is dead and Doris her sister is not dead.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, if I might intervene, we don't know if Sibongele is dead or not, that's the gist of my question.  We know that Doris is alive.

CHAIRPERSON: The purpose of my question is that then why does he make the application if he's not certain whether she's dead or not?

MR SWANEPOEL: Of course, I would just like to know if she's dead, how does he know that and what the situation is.

ADV DE JAGER: I now understood and kindly tell me whether I'm right, that afterwards you've seen Sibongele again?  Is that right?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes that is correct, that was after the violence had subsided, after there was peace in the section.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you see her?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: I saw her in the streets, she was passing by next to the shops.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you sure it's the same person that you kidnapped and that you shot at, that you've seen passing in the street again afterwards?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes I am sure, it's not the sibling, it's not Doris that you've seen afterwards?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: No, I saw Sibongele.

ADV DE JAGER: So then there can't be any murder of Sibongele because she's still alive?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes, Sibongele's still alive and all I know is that her sister passed away.

ADV DE JAGER: No, but her sister is here.  One of the sisters passed away it seems but according to the names given, the sister who is still alive is Doris and Sibongele vanished, they don't know whether she's dead or alive?

CHAIRPERSON: The person you saw near the shops sometime after the elections, can you see her in the audience?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you point her out for us?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: It's the lady sitting on the third row with a shirt with roses, red and white roses.

CHAIRPERSON: It's that lady as you know as Sibongele Ligela?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, my instructing attorney has now taken instructions from who we know as Doris.  Our instructions are that the person - her sister who died's name is Francisca and there were only two sisters.  She is known as both Doris and Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, on page 168, Section 9(b), attempted murder and I don't know if you want to be too strict on the matter, says that application is made for attempted murder of Sibongele and the murder unknown I suppose?

MR SWANEPOEL: I won't take that too far, I can understand that confusion might exist in the mind of the applicants.  What I do want to establish is whether the other sister is dead.  If that is the case ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But I think Mr Swanepoel, the confusion was in your mind, you created the impression that Doris is still alive and that the other sister Sibongele is dead but it's turned out otherwise.  Let's not dwell on it, we know there's the one sister and the one sitting there is Doris.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's ask you this then, one of the sisters is sitting here in front, what happened to the other sister?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: The person that I saw alive is Sibongele.  We left her sister there, I don't know what happened to her sister because people would come and take the dead bodies there, stability unit would come and collect all the dead bodies.  I don't even know what happened thereafter because we did not go back to the scene again.

CHAIRPERSON: He is unable to tell you Mr Swanepoel.

MR SWANEPOEL: I've go no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any?

MS PATEL: Just on your commander Ben Mashinini, is he still alive?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: No he passed away.

MS PATEL: Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, I assume the misunderstanding has been clarified and there's no need for me to further clarify it?  Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED