Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MS D CHILI: Yes I will quote one instance, it was a very large group, about eight of them who they told Mrs Sisulu that they have run away from Mrs Mandela's house and they wanted help from her.  Mrs Sisulu was banned then, she phoned me, it was very late at night, that please Dudu you know I can't move because of my restrictions, can you come and help me with these children so that they can get hiding places until the UDF decides what to do with them.

MR PIGOU: Following the incident at your house and then subsequently with the unbanning of the ANC did you make any attempts to resolve the differences between your family and Mrs Mandela?

MS D CHILI: No I never did because after the bombing of my house I was displaced and in hiding for a long time and I never got the chance because when the ANC was unbanned I did go to - it was still a (...indistinct) centre, I approached Mr Sisulu and Mr Mlangini and then they said they can't interfere particularly that this incident involves Mr Mandela's wife, rather they will arrange an appointment for me to speak myself with Mr Mandela.  Mr Sisulu took me to Jessie Duarte, the then personal assistant of Mr Mandela then.  She did make an appointment for me but that appointment failed because that date collided when Mr Mandela came back from the long tour that he took after his release.  It collided with the report-back to the constituency and Jessie promised that another appointment was going to be set for me for which I am still waiting.

MR PIGOU: We know that Mr Charles Zwane was convicted in connection with the attack on your house and that Mr Charles Zwane was associated with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's home and had also been convicted previously in the Oupa Sehere matter, has Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ever made any approaches to you to resolve these problems, to reconcile with your family?

MS D CHILI: She has never approached me for any reconciliation.  The two people who came to me it was Peter Mokaba and Rapo who were then in the Youth.  Just before the release of Mr Mandela they came to my flat where I was staying then, that they were worried that our dispute, the dispute between me and Mrs Mandela is going to be problematic when Mr Mandela comes out, and it is their wish to see it resolved.  I said to them I have no problem with that because I wanted it to be resolved too, but I said to them look it won't just be you coming to me because according to my custom a child is a family child, Finkie died in the house and I cannot claim her to be my child alone and take a decision alone, Finkie's father and mother ought to be there.  My family ought to be there and Mrs Mandela's family ought to be there so that we resolve this thing and be done with it.  They left, they never came back.

MR PIGOU: One last question to you Dudu Chili.  Do you hold Mrs Madikizela-Mandela directly responsible for the problems which your family have had or do you rather see that she had no control over the people that were living in her house and that therefore she is not directly responsible for what has happened to your family?

MS D CHILI: I was very hurt that this thing happened to me especially that it happened with the Football Club which was connected to Mrs Mandela.  I never thought a thing like that can happen, and I always thought that Mrs Mandela was a strong powerful woman and if she had the responsibility of the Football Club she could have managed to control them not to do the things that they did to the community.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  Just a couple of questions for Sibusiso Chili. Sibusiso in your statement to the Truth Commission you stated that when the Football Club was established most of your comrades joined the Club and you did not join.  Now we have been talking in the last week or so about a period of 1987, 1988 and now the beginning of 1989 when this incident happened with Maxwell Madondo.  During the course of those two years we have heard from your mother that there were attempts to get you to join the Football Club, were you able to walk around freely, as much as one could in those times in Soweto, or was there a constant fear in the back of your mind that something may happen to you as a result of your failure or refusal to join the Football Club?

MR S CHILI: I had no fear.  There were some people who had fear but the situation that prevailed at the time was a scary one.

MR PIGOU: Did you make any attempts, because you talk about most of your comrades joining the Club, clearly these were people that you knew, did you make attempts to find out from those people what really was the motive behind your insecurity or the position that you were put in to be made to feel insecure, did you try and find out why certain people in the Club were targeting you?

MR S CHILI: I did not make any attempts from the Football Club members, even from other people who joined later, I did not ask anything.

MR PIGOU: Mr Chili did you have friends around you who possibly were also involved in disciplining other people in terms of, we've heard that your mother was a focal point of attention in that part of the community, was there any disciplinary action taken by yourself of unruly elements in the community?

MR S CHILI: No.

MR PIGOU: No further questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.  May I direct my questions to Mrs Chili.  In, to use your phrase, face to face with Mrs Mandela has there been any unfriendly communication, verbal communication between the two of you?

MS D CHILI: No.

MR SEMENYA: My instructions are that since you have always related with one another, at least on a one-to-one in a very cordial way, is that right?  And in fact she recalls an event when she invited you to go and deliver a speech, I think, at Wits for the students, do you recall that?

MS D CHILI: Yes I do.

MR SEMENYA: You do.  Now Ma'am the one aspect to which you make reference relates to the son, to Nombulelo Makobo is that right?

MS D CHILI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And I think the son to her is a Mr Mbuyisa, is that right?

MS D CHILI: Mtando, we call him Mtando.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon.

MS D CHILI: Mtando.

DR BORAINE: Could I just interrupt you for a moment, I wonder if the witness would either move that or speak up a little bit.  Thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: Firstly let us locate the timeframe, Mbuyiso though is the gentleman who is carrying Hector Petersen in the famous photo, is that right?

MS D CHILI: I am talking about his younger brother, Mtando.

MR SEMENYA: My instructions are this Mtando never stayed at Mrs Mandela's house, do you have facts that you personally know that suggest that he in fact stayed there?

MS D CHILI: Yes that's why the mother came to demand why her son was not returning home whilst staying at Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela house.

MR SEMENYA: Let me put it differently, have you on occasion seen that young man sleeping at Mrs Mandela's house?

MS D CHILI: I was not sleeping there so I couldn't have seen him sleeping there.

MR SEMENYA: No I respect that you would not have been sleeping there, I am trying to establish whether out of own personal knowledge...

MS D CHILI: He did join the Football Club, that's why the mother came to me and said Dudu since Mtando has joined the Football Club he is no more returning home.  Then that is when I said look I am not connected to the Football Club, you rather go and talk to Mrs Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: I take it Ma'am you cannot accept the factual correctness that the boy did sleep there, is that correct?

MS D CHILI: I tell you the mother came and asked me that since my son is not sleeping at home because he has joined the Football Club, then I referred her to Mrs Mandela. She came with this response that Mrs Mandela said I am feeding them. So that is my answer.