Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Nothing to add, thanks Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I've spoken to my two colleagues and I've got two different answers.
R U L I N G
I basically don't have any difficulty with the line of questioning being asked, it just gets once again to the unique situation we're in regarding the time factor, because we've already dealt with the situation relating to external matters and it was already agreed that if questions were put, if he doesn't want to answer them, questions relating to external matters, he needn't and then we can deal with it fully in argument as to what weight should be attached on the refusal to answer.  So it gets down to a time question again and I wouldn't stop the questioning, save for the question of time.  I'm not stopping it now, but I'm just asking you as far as possible to keep it to certain limits so that we can achieve finalisation on this matter in the scheduled time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, what we do want to argue is that there's a strong correlation between what I've just read to you and the entries.  I don't want anybody to stand up at the end and say ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no I think that's quite clear.

MR KAHANOVITZ: ... well, you can't argue that now, you didn't put it to the witness.  That's my concern.

CHAIRPERSON: I fully understand that.  And I think that will even apply even if you don't mention certain things that come up, of that nature, in argument because of the time restrictions we won't stop you from arguing that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe we can short circuit this on the basis that if my learned friend appearing for the witness tells me that insofar as I'm going to put to the witness the correlations between the entries in his diary and what I've just read, on each and every occasion that I say that I'm going to get an answer "I refuse to answer that question", then we can leave it at that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: May I just speak to the witness for a minute?  The witness will answer for himself.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I stand by my point, I refuse to answer questions regarding external projects.  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Might I just for purposes of the record then just identify the passages that I was going to put to the witness?
"Namibian Taxi Services - 32 vehicles.  Oil - disrupt AS.  'Zim min afgestaan om te help - vind out wie'.  Do not burn the place down. Postpone election date.  Disrupt SWAPO speakers and meetings.
And then there's an arrow.
" Waar ...(onduidelik) kom met voorstelle.  Obtain snakes.  Spread disease in camps - Frans/Hymer.  Chief Inspect Thornbury - make him angry."

CHAIRPERSON: Page ...(indistinct)

MR KAHANOVITZ: That's right.  And then on the following page, I'm not going to read out all the entries but page 25 there are certain entries.  Page 26, likewise, entries to the effect of, on the 14th of July
"ID SWAPO taxis"
and there are entries along the lines of:
"Steal licence disks.  Sulphuric acid erodes.  Arson.  No explosions.  Retaliation."
Item 4:
"Political meetings to be monitored and disrupted - Water, power, speakers will published in newspapers beforehand.
Point 5 on that page:
"Look at drinking places in order to use medicine"
and so on and so forth.  Then on page 29, 27th of July, would you care to explain the entry:
"Girls like Bessenger close to Tjongarero can  fall two weeks after Hamutenya"

WOUTER J BASSON: I refuse to answer any questions about external projects.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, I am concerned here about time and would we be inclined to try and finish off the witness even if it's going to bleed over a little bit past four, or would the inclination be to stop at four even if we're not finished.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what the people's situation is.  As far as I'm concerned, I'm only leaving tomorrow.  I don't know how urgently other people have to leave.  Mr Sibanyoni's got to catch a flight at six.  I don't know what the critical time to leave would be, taking into account the possible traffic jam on the way to the airport.  So if we go after four, it shouldn't be too long after four otherwise he'll probably miss his aeroplane.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I think let's see how far I get.
	The entries on page 32 for the 3rd of August, once again I'm going to put to you that these are notes concerning a plan to assassinate SWAPO leaders in Windhoek and once again I'm going to refer to what Pieter Botes told Jacques Pauw.  Mr Botes - and I'm not quoting here, I'm going to paraphrase, he said the original plan was to murder Hamutenya and Tjongarero.  He says Tjongarero was removed from the death list after he became ill, but the plans for Hamutenya's assassination went ahead.  The plan was to have Hamutenya shot with a Russian-made pistol outside the Namibia night-club, a club frequented by Hamutenya and other SWAPO members.
	Botes says he returned to Pretoria on the 23rd of August 1989, to report back about the feasibility and progress of the project to murder Hamutenya.  He then had to submit the final draft to Verster three days later.  He then had an argument with Verster who accused him of mismanagement and he withdrew from the Namibian project.
	Once again I assume you're not going to comment.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Basson, was this diary entirely work or did you have personal matters in it?  Like I see you talk about an "orkes" and "gaan dansers 7 Augustus bywoon."

WOUTER J BASSON: No, it's mostly CCB activities.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I must also put to you that the entry there
"TABBS"
and below that also:
"Top level where TABBS sits between toilets is ..."
what's the word there?
MR BASSON
"large door"
MR KAHANOVITZ
"... private SWAPO"
The reference to TABBS is a reference to the name of the disc jockey at the Namibia by Night Club.  No comment.  Now these references to - on the 1st of August, page 30:
"Bert must chase Grosskopf and make his supporters fall over.  G Evans"
and just read with the entry on page 33:
"NB:  Jack to talk tomorrow with Chairman about Evans"
If I understand your evidence-in-chief correctly, you say the project was put on hold, but it was resuscitated
later in the year.  Correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's possible that with regard to the information on Grosskopf, that there would have been a discussion between Mr Verster and Gen Webb.  There was no second plan launched.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The reference at page 33, the 1st of August, to
"Bert"
is a reference to Staal Burger, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why does the entry say that Burger must chase Grosskopf and make sure that his supporters die?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I have knowledge of an attempt of Mr Burger where he could have gained access to a country in Africa and it is possible that they looked at a plan, but once again it's an external project.

MR LAX: But you see Burger denied anything of the sort, he said he wasn't involved in any such, nothing of that kind overseas.

WOUTER J BASSON: It could be that nothing happened, Chairperson.  I can't remember, I wasn't present at this meeting, I can't remember.  I cannot tell you what happened there.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry, if I remember correctly Mr Burger's evidence was in fact he just never got to that, so in fact that he wouldn't have been involved.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We can look at the record I think.
	Page 35, the 5th of October:
"Final coord today - shift money"
What's that about?

WOUTER J BASSON: I think it refers to final co-ordination today.  There were opportunities where funds would have been transferred abroad and if there were regions who had interests in external projects, they could have used those opportunities to get authority to transfer funds abroad.

MR KAHANOVITZ: At what time - you say at a particular stage you were relieved of your duties as the Co-ordinator of Region 6 and replaced by someone else, when did that happen?