Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-15

MR KHUZWAYO: Not the TRC investigators, but the police, SAP investigators.  It was written that way even in court.  They wanted me to agree.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright.  I understand.  Now on page 24, the last line where you say
"We used the money," you say:  "Robbery and Murder.  We robbed the cars with the intention of helping our community and we used the money to assist us when we were in trouble."
Now which money are you referring to, which monies?

MR KHUZWAYO: I am confused.  If you can please repeat that question for me.

ADV BOSMAN: On page 24 paragraph (b), where you state
"Robbery and Murder.  We robbed the cars with the intention of helping our community"
Now that we have cleared up, you say you didn't know about that, that the cars had been robbed, but then you say:
"We used the money to assist us when we were in trouble."
Which money is this that you're referring to?

MR KHUZWAYO: We as trained cadres, some of us were responsible for robbery and that money was used to help the community, but I personally, I didn't participate in any of those, but some of our comrades were doing that.

ADV BOSMAN: Am I correct now that you are asking for amnesty for the killing of Mthembu and for the possession of illegal firearms?  Is that what you want amnesty for?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, that's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Sibiya?  Were you charged with anything in respect of Sibiya and convicted of anything in respect of Sibiya?

MR KHUZWAYO: Sibiya was not injured by me.  I didn't do anything because I didn't aim appropriately at him.  As far as I'm concerned there's nothing that I did to Sibiya.  If there was I would have asked amnesty for that.

CHAIRPERSON: So were you convicted for anything in respect of Sibiya?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I was convicted of attempted murder and I would  appreciate that because what I can say today is that I would like to apologise to the families about my attempting to kill Sibiya and maybe also I would like to apply for amnesty in that respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought so.  I thought you were really going to kill him.

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mthembu just came on the scene.

MR KHUZWAYO: They were all in our list, it wasn't just Mthembu and Sibiya, there were other people, people who were working with Sibiya.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we understand what you're saying.

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, Ms Loonat, have you got any re-examination?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairperson, just one question to clarify my learned colleagues question to my client regarding Olive Nkwanyana's affidavit.  Page 43 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Loonat.

UNKNOWN: Page 43 of the bundle, I'm referring to Nkosi Olive Nkwanyana's affidavit.  I just with to emphasise point no 12 in which, although my learned colleague says that Ms Nkwanyana said today that she was living in fear of my client, she did say in her affidavit that she holds no grudge against my applicant and that she admits that it was just a politically motivated thing against her fiance and that the perpetrators were definitely ANC, so she's not, she indicates here that she's not frightened of my client, is what I understand and that she won't even comment on the application for amnesty.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that has all been clarified now by the applicant.  I think they were more concerned about the attitude of the applicant but I think Ms Jelal has cleared up that.  The applicant says that there is no bad blood, she just went to go and tell the court what she saw.

ADV SANDI: Were you referred to in court as accused no 1?

MR KHUZWAYO: I don't remember very well, but I think I was accused number 1.

ADV SANDI: Just remind me a little bit of detail.  How many were you when you carried out this attack?

MR KHUZWAYO: Four.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any discussion after the attack had been carried out?  Did you discuss the incident amongst yourselves?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, we did because we were disappointed that we didn't get hold of Sibiya and also we were also discussing as to what steps to be taken in order for us to get hold of Sibiya.

ADV SANDI: In those discussions which you had, did anything come out about money?  Was there any mention of money, money having been robbed from Mthembu, the one who died?

MR KHUZWAYO: No.  It wasn't easy, even though there was someone who had done that among us, it wasn't easy for that person to reveal that to us, to the group, because it wasn't the agreement.

ADV SANDI: But were you not found guilty of having robbed Mr Mthembu and taken an unspecified amount of money from him?

MR KHUZWAYO: From what I heard and from what my attorney had told me, is that they withdrew that case, they said it was no longer part of the whole case.

ADV SANDI: But according to the judgment of the court, at page 82 the last paragraph, maybe your attorney can bring this to your attention, page 82.  That is on the conclusion of the court, accused number 1, number 5 and 8 are each convicted of murder on count 1 of theft on count 2 of attempted murder on count 3.  Now, the robbery of money was referred to in the indictment as count number 2.

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes, I do see that.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but is that clear that you were found guilty of robbing money from Mr Mthembu?

MR KHUZWAYO: I had told the court that we were not there to rob them, but we were there to kill them.  The only reason we were there was to kill and just leave that place and go back, but we were not there to kill and rob and I also told the court that I personally didn't rob or my group didn't rob.  Maybe after we killed Mthembu people who came there, or maybe someone who came and saw that there was a chance from him or her to take that money, maybe they did, but not from our group.

ADV SANDI: Is it the position here that you're applying for amnesty in respect of that particular offence as well, robbery, is it the position, you're applying for robbery as well, for money?

MR KHUZWAYO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, there were 9 accused at this trial of yours.  Accused number 1 was apparently Ernest Mthembu.  Now it's important, for some or other reason the document that has told us who the accused were is not photocopied in our bundle, I don't know why the first page of the indictment with the names on is not before us.  We've only got the name, on page 44, the name of accused number 9 which was Christiaan Israel Nzimande, so it's important to know which number accused you were because accused number 1, number 5, number 8, three accused were convicted of stealing money, theft.  You were not number 1 because according to page 45(a) Ernest Mthembu was accused number 1.  We also know you were not accused number 9 because that is Christiaan Nzimande, page 44, but we don't know what is in between.  Can't you remember which number accused you were?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, may I address the court?  From my reading and from my understanding, I based my accused as being number 8 in terms of the judgment, as being number 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that perhaps help you?  Were you accused number 8?  Ms Loonat, where do you see that?  Where do you infer it from?

UNKNOWN: On page 56 of the Judgment it says that accused number 8 fired the two shots at the deceased where he sat behind the wheel and that is in line with what had happened.  It was my client who shot at the taxi owner and it goes on further.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only...?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chairman, on page 72.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes? Which part?  The evidence of number 8?

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes Mr Chairperson, there are several pages where it refers to number 8 as having done what the story he told me, my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khuzwayo, do your parents, did you have a parental kraal that belonged to a grandmother Mashandu, about one kilometre from that of Sibiya's kraal?  Does that refer to you?

MR KHUZWAYO: Yes.