Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-05

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you just try and be slow so that the translator can get the exact words that you are using for her to be able to translate appropriately?  Just try and be slow at the pace at which you are giving your evidence.  You may proceed.  They had already appeared on T.V. when they were giving their evidence in Richards Bay?

MONDLI NGXONGO: In Westville prison the cells have television.  When they were televised we saw them.  Mr Hlongwane and Nicky Brits came to the prison and they said to us have you seen them and you've heard what they've said about the IFP in the TRC Committee or before the TRC Committee and we were supposed to silence them and there are few ways in order to silence them.  Either you stab them or you kill them inside the prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he saying either you meaning you prisoners have to stab them whilst they are in prison?  I didn't get that?

MONDLI NGXONGO: He was referring to IFP members who were in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: So he said you prisoners were supposed to silence Mbambo and the other - and his co-applicants in that hearing which took place in Richards Bay?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And this meeting obviously happened after Mr Mbambo and his co-applicants had testified in Richards Bay?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes before they finished.

CHAIRPERSON: So it actually took place during the week that those hearings were held in Richards Bay?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Is it not also so that this committee you mention prior to the Richards Bay hearing, Mr Mbambo was the chairperson of this committee?

MONDLI NGXONGO: Yes he was, he was the chairperson of this committee.  When they came they said we were supposed to remove him from that committee.

MR WILLS: Finally Mr Ngxongo you indicated in your evidence yesterday that you pleaded guilty in respect of this charge.  My instructions are that you initially pleaded not guilty then Mr Mbambo gave evidence and then you changed your plea to one of guilty is that correct?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, arising from the questions put by Mr Wills to Mr Ngxongo, you wish to put any questions to Mr Ngxongo ?

MS THABETE: Just one question Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

MS THABETE: Thank you.  Mr Ngxongo, besides or as a member of the IFP hit squad, besides the Teledi incident, were there any other incidents that you were involved in?

MONDLI NGXONGO: There was one which was never successful and there was one where we were attacked by a limpet mine but it wasn't successful and Sipiwe used to take a certain group with him to go and attack.

MS THABETE: When did you become a member of the IFP hit squad?

MONDLI NGXONGO: If I'm not mistaken I think it was between 1988 and 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: I think yesterday you said you became a member in 1989, if we can come to your assistance, that has already been established Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madame Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Oosthuizen, do you have any re-examination?

MR OOSTHUIZEN: I've got no re-examination thank you Madame Chair.

ADV BOSMAN: I've got no questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one aspect Mr Ngxongo, when you took these firearms from the trunk at eSikhawini did you have any licences for these firearms?  Did you have any permits for them?

MONDLI NGXONGO: These guns were sent there for the purpose of a hit squad.  If you were a member of a hit squad therefore you do have permission to take.  I didn't have the licences as such but I had the permission to use the guns as a member of hit squad.

MR LAX: Well what would you have done if you were stopped by the police in a road block and they saw the firearm on you and they asked you well where's the permission for this firearm?  What would you have done about it?

MONDLI NGXONGO: As I have already explained, I was Mr Mbambo, he had an appointment certificate of police therefore we were going to succeed since he was a policeman.  These guns belonged to police.

MR LAX: So you hadn't worked out an explanation about why you had a firearm, he might have got away with it but what about you?

MONDLI NGXONGO: They used to stop us even when I was with Mr Umviani.  If there were guns say for instance four guns, if police stop us they will ask us how come there were four guns and he will issue his identification as a policeman and they will let us go, therefore I believed that even if they were going to stop us with Mr Mbambo they were going to let us go because it happened before with Mr Umviani.

MR LAX: Do you know where he got the appointment certificate from?

MONDLI NGXONGO: He was a police.

MR LAX: You were never issued with such an appointment certificate were you?

MONDLI NGXONGO: No, I wasn't given one.

MR LAX: And you were asked by Ms Thabete about what other operations you were involved in and and from what I can see you were only involved in two other operations and both of them failed.  Were you ever personally involved in any of the indiscriminate shootings and attacks?

MONDLI NGXONGO: No.

MR LAX: Thank you chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngxongo, I have a few problems with the evidence that you have given in the light of the evidence that we have already heard from Mr Mbambo regarding this incident in Ermelo.  However, maybe let me try and come to my major difficulty being the reason you advance for having lied when completing your application form for amnesty.  You have stated that you lied when completing the application for amnesty because of the negative attitude your organisation had towards the TRC and you therefore could not disclose the truth of your participation in respect of this incident.  You then went further to say you lied because you were also visited by some leaders of the ANC who came and pleaded with you not to implicate the IFP leaders ...[intervention]

MR LAX: It was the IFP, you said the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let me correct myself.  The second reason was that you were visited by IFP leaders who came and pleaded with you not to disclose anything that would implicate such leaders but only talk about the conflict between the IFP and the ANC and by that I mean I understood you to be saying you were allowed to speak about the general conflict between the IFP and the ANC.  Am I encapsulating the reasons you advanced yesterday for having lied when you completed your application form correctly?

MONDLI NGXONGO: I would like you to repeat your question because you've already said a lot.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I haven't actually asked any question, I was just reminding you of the evidence you gave yesterday and I just wanted to find out if we had a common understanding about your evidence yesterday which you gave in respect of the reason why your application did not contain the correct information insofar as this incident is concerned.  Now your evidence was that the reason why you lied in your application form which was completed and signed on the 6th December 1996 was firstly because your organisation had a negative attitude towards the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and therefore you didn't want to divulge the truth about your participation in this incident because of the attitude that your organisation had towards the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, am I correct in understanding your evidence yesterday?

MONDLI NGXONGO: That is correct.