Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: When I was arrested I realised that he was a member, he was a security branch, because we attended meetings together.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do you mean that you realised it after your arrest or before you were arrested did you know he was a member of the security branch, because you were attending meetings together?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: After I was arrested I discovered that he was a security branch.

ADV MEMANI: Is it correct that in your evidence you have referred to Kopi as one of the persons who were present at the police station?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: He was present at Fountain in the kitchen.

ADV MEMANI: Did you see him in any particular office?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I do not remember well, you know.

ADV MEMANI: There were many of you at the police station on that day, is it not?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, we were 19, the people who were arrested.

ADV MEMANI: And you were made to do frog-jumps along Violent Street?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: And there were offices adjacent, along the passage?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: And you saw Erasmus in the vicinity of Violent Street?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: There were many in Violent Street.

ADV MEMANI: Now, any policeman who was present would have been aware that people were being assaulted in the police station on that day?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: All of them realised that people were assaulted on that day, because there were cries and there was blood on the walls.

ADV MEMANI: It is impossible that any person who was present at the police station would not have been aware that people were being assaulted.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: All the policemen who were present realised that there were assaults in Violent Street, because people were kicked while we were doing frog-jumps in Violent Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did these offices open off Violent Street?  You have told us you were taken to certain offices.  Did they open off the passage that was known as Violent Street?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, because the door would be closed after you entered the office.  It is a long passage and there are doors.  They just call you, you get into an office, they close the door.

ADV MEMANI: I have no further questions, my Lord.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR STANDER: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you were asked as to whether you did see Erasmus on the passage during the frog-jumps your answer was there were many policemen there.  So, I do not know whether you are saying you did not see him, because there were many
policemen.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I saw him ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: ... in the passage.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage was that, that you saw
him in the passage?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: It was during the frog-jumps.  The first time I saw him, but I did not know that he was Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, two issues have arisen as a result of questions after I concluded cross-examination. Could I be allowed to address those two questions briefly, please, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: What are they?

MR VISSER: The first issue is the question of Mr Ngo being a security policeman and the second stems from the question which has been asked by Mr, my, by Justice Ngoepe which is now a slightly different reply to the evidence upon which I cross-examined regarding Mr Erasmus.  I want to just clarify those two points, Mr Chairman, with your leave.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

MR VISSER: Why do you say that Mr Ngo was a member of the security branch here in Bloemfontein?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: He was among a group of security branch at the time when we were arrested.  He was among them and I became aware that this person is a security branch member.

MR VISSER: How did you become aware of that?  I can understand if you say you saw him among them and you took it for granted or you drew an inference, but you say you also became aware of it.  What do you mean by that?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: It was one team of security branch.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, I did not hear (...indistinct)

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: It was one team, I know as you are sitting there you are representing different people, now you are one group.  So, they also were one group.  He was in that group of security branch members.

MR VISSER: And you drew that inference from that fact, not so?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Well, I just want to put it to you that Mr Ngo was never a member of the security branch as a policeman in Bloemfontein at any time.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: What did he want among them, Sir?

MR VISSER: The next question that I want to ask you is this.  When Justice Ngoepe asked you about Erasmus you said that you did not know him and you became aware of his name, I think, later.  Is that what you said?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: During the frog-jumps I did not know that he was Erasmus, but when he took us for photos I knew, I already knew that he was Erasmus.

MR VISSER: I see.  So, at that stage already.  Did somebody tell you that his name was Erasmus?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: They were calling each other and I heard.

MR VISSER: So, you say that it was Erasmus who assaulted you when the photos were taken, because you heard other people call him Erasmus?  Is that what you are saying?  Do you have a reply to that?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Well, thank you.
	Who were the other people that called him Erasmus?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: The policemen who were present there.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR BRINK: May I have an opportunity, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK

MR BRINK: Were you here yesterday during the proceedings?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I was not here.

MR BRINK: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR STANDER: May I have a moment?

CHAIRPERSON: Sure.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, at this stage I have no further evidence from prejudiced people to offer.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you closing your case for prejudiced people?

MR STANDER: I did not know that I had a case which I had to close.  If there are any further prejudiced people who appear then I will have no choice but to request the Committee to offer their evidence.  At this stage I have none of them here to place that evidence before you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that you do not have any more prospective witnesses that, persons whom you intend to call?

MR STANDER: There is a possibility that I will call further people.  Unfortunately, they are not here at the moment.  I cannot say whether they will appear at a later stage or what the position is.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are they and why are they not here today?  We have been sitting here, point of you leading witnesses from Monday.  How has it come about now that you say there are others, but they are not here today?

MR STANDER: Just before the adjournment for tea there was a Mr White Mohape.  He told me that he could possibly be back at two o' clock this afternoon.  It is a possibility.  I do not know whether he is going to appear.  The other persons whom I am appearing for, I have not seen since the previous occasion.  I can give you no indication as to where they find themselves or why they have not appeared.