Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MR VISSER: I accept that.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Then the bodily fluid will ...

MR VISSER: Will miss the dress?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is right.

MR VISSER: Is it your opinion that in this case, given the information of having totally decomposed in the dress and having been buried for 10 years, you would look for a possibility that the dress was probably not covering the whole of the body?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: The whole body, yes.

MR VISSER: Is that because you would have expected to have found far more, far clearer signs of bodily fluids in that dress if she was dressed properly?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes, I would have expected it.

MR VISSER: Thank you.   Thank you, I think we can put that away, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.

MR LAX: Just while we are on this, what about the other items?  Can we just get his opinion on the same basis, of the other items?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, yes, if you want to ask him to do that.  I am interested in the dress.

MR LAX: No, it is fine.  We will ask that later then, that is fine.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to ...

MR VISSER: But we can do it now.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to ask Dr Aiyer something, now that he has seen the dress.    You referred to the upper torso was covered in a pinkish fabric in your report, have you seen that dress before?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, I do not recall seeing that before.  I wouldn't have described that as either a maroon or a crimson coloured fabric, rather than pink.

ADV BOSMAN: Just for the record, it is a whitish fabric according to the description?

CHAIRPERSON: No, ...

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Pinkish fabric ...

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry, I missed that, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The upper torso was covered with a pinkish fabric.  I think perhaps the best is that you take a look at Exhibit 2 and 3, if that is possible.  Just the colour more than anything.

MR VISSER: Doctor, I believe another item allegedly coming out of that, out of that grave, was the item being shown to you, and you must forgive me, I keep on getting mixed up with the numbers, the Chairman seems to remember them.

CHAIRPERSON: That is Exhibit 2, the poloneck.

MR VISSER: Exhibit 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall that item?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Not particularly, no, but if I may, pertaining to your previous question, that seems as though it would have been on a body that was decomposing, without a doubt.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes.  And then Exhibit 3 would be the petticoat, I think Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: The slip, I think we called it, yes, the petticoat, same thing.

MR VISSER: I am sorry to put you through this, but by this time I suppose you are used to this kind of thing?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I am quite used to it.  This may have been the item that I described as pinkish, may have, I am not saying with certainty, but it may have been.

MR VISSER: Yes, but again pertaining to the question of bodily fluids, would you say that there are signs of bodily fluids on that particular garment?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes?  Doctor, yes, I think in fairness to you ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is not necessary to look at the bra?

MR VISSER: No, no.  In fairness to you, I believe some of, some samples of the clothing was in fact sent for DNA testing and I must be honest with you, that I haven't looked at that for some time, I am not sure off the top of my head what the results were pertaining to the dress, but if at all it is relevant to you, I do just mention the fact that there was DNA testing done and I am just trying to find it, if you will forgive me for wasting your time, Doctor.
	I am at page 45, 46, I am not sure whether that is the one I am looking for, Chairperson.  I think it is earlier, I think it is 44, thereabouts.  It does have a reference, and I do apologise for not having my finger right on it. There is some reference Chairperson, to the material.

CHAIRPERSON: That is on page 45 ...

MR VISSER: Yes, I will look for it Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But put what you can recall at this stage.

MR VISSER: Yes, my Attorney just tells me that we may have noticed that in the police docket, and that it is not, that may be the explanation why I cannot find it straight away.  It is not in your Bundle.
	We will certainly look for that and if at all relevant, we will draw your attention to it.  If we can just come back to, Dr Aiyer, if I may, to your report.  You see the other thing that you noted here was that, well two things, the one is that the left pubic bone was fractured and then you say "as was the radius and the ulna".  
	In the photographs which you have before you, I believe there is support in one of the photographs, I am afraid I haven't got clear enough copies to be of assistance to you, of the pelvic bone.  Perhaps if you could turn to that photograph and just tell us what figure number it is.  It might be figure 8.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: I am not sure.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Figure 8 does have a pelvic bone.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Is that, I am just running through them quickly and I think ...

CHAIRPERSON: Page 54 of Volume 2?

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, and then apparently page 63, that would be figure 19.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is also, yes.

MR VISSER: Do you observe the fracture on the photographs there?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Figure 19 actually shows that fracture much better, yes.

MR VISSER: Now, coming, moving on to the what you saw there and I understand what you are telling us, your examination was very cursory, you also found "numerous fractured ribs".
	I would ask you Doctor, if you could look at those photographs  and point out to us, I realise that this is not the way you found the skeleton, I realise that immediately, but is there a photograph which shows fractured ribs that you can find there?
	Perhaps look at figure 8, at page 54?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I did have a look at that.  It is difficult to show a fracture in these photographs.  I mean when one talks about a fracture, the visual impression that one gets in one's mind's eye, is a clean break with the ribs separated?

MR VISSER: Yes.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: But that doesn't necessarily mean that was what I was referring to.  Even a slight crack or ...

MR VISSER: Would represent a fracture to you in medical terms?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Medically yes.

MR VISSER: I accept that.  I accept that.  On figure 8, what is significant there, I put it to you is the fact that this person had no hands?  So it seems?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And again I know that you didn't do a thorough examination, I will certainly ask Dr Naidoo about this.  Can you remember seeing any hand bones among the bones that you found there?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No.  The hand bones are divided into two, the carpal bones as well as the metacarpal bones, and these are normally small bones.  It is frequently difficult to find these after a long term of interment, they tend to disintegrate quite easily.

MR VISSER: Alright.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: And as indicated, I didn't make a thorough search for the smaller bones.

MR VISSER: Please just, on this issue, you did mention fracture of the - what did you call it - the radius and the  ulna?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You say, in fact your words are
"... the left pubic bone is fractured as was a radius and ulna ..."?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Does it not appear that both the radii and ulnae, and I am speaking in the company of my erstwhile teachers, I better get my Latin correct, were broken?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: From the photograph here?

MR VISSER: Yes?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: It may seem so.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes, it may seem so.