Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-01

CHAIRPERSON: I apologise that we were not able to start at nine o'clock as arranged, but that was as a result of some emergency that arose this morning.  Today is the 1st of October 1997 and we are proceeding with the same set of applications.  We finished yesterday with Mr Nieuwoudt and I think we are proceeding to hear Mr De Kock.  Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I am calling my client, Eugene Alexander de Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: While you are doing that, we have finished with Genl Van Rensburg and we have also finished with the applicants who were at the time based at Port Elizabeth and we are now starting with Col De Kock who was based at Vlakplaas.  I think we should proceed after Mr De Kock to hear those applicants who were at that time also based at Vlakplaas, in order to maintain some coherence in our proceedings.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, in view of your remarks just now, I just want to point out that Mr Snyman, one of the Vlakplaas members are unfortunately ill.  He phoned me this morning and complained of an illness and it has been arranged that he will see a medical practitioner this morning.  This aspect has been discussed by me with the legal representative of Mr Du Toit, as well as that of Mr Ras, and subject to the order which your Lordship directs, it has been provisionally discussed that Mr Du Toit will follow the evidence of Mr De Kock and thereafter Mr Ras will testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would follow Mr De Kock?

MR LAMEY: The evidence by the technical people, namely Mr Du Toit and Mr Kok.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, we will see as we proceed how to handle that.

MR LAMEY: As it pleases.

MR HUGO: I am Schalk Hugo and I am acting on behalf of Eugene Alexander de Kock, the first applicant in this matter.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (Duly sworn, states).

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock, you are the applicant in the amnesty application which has been launched in the matter of the Motherwell Four, is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: And you have the application in front of you. Is that your signature appearing on it; was it properly attested to and at the timing of the signing of this statement, you are aware of the contents, is it true and correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: I am referring you to page 1, is that your name and signature and surname, and then page 2, paragraphs 3 to 7 and 8, do you confirm the contents and the information contained in those paragraphs?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: Turning to page 4, you there refer to your force number.  Do you confirm the information there contained?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: Perhaps I can put it to you for completeness sake, that you joined the South African Police in 1969?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It was 1968.

MR HUGO: And you were initially in the uniform branch in the Eastern Cape?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: After that you were transferred to South West Africa?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: And you then joined the security police which had a branch in Oshikati?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: Can you remember the date?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It was in May of 1978.

MR HUGO: In this application there is reference to certain annexures which contain reports of criminologists and psychologists used during your criminal trial?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: Chairperson, for your information, we purposely did not attach those annexures, because we didn't think it was relevant as far as the current application is concerned.  I could perhaps ask you a couple of questions on this point, and that would be the following.  Did you at some point join Koevoet while you were in South West Africa?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.  Operation Koevoet was initiated on the 1st of January 1979 and I was one of the eight founding members.

MR HUGO: You were then retransferred from the then South West Africa to the Republic of South Africa and to which unit?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I was transferred in May of 1983 to Section C1 headquarters.

MR HUGO: Please tell us very briefly what the function and role of this unit was?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The unit had a double agenda.  On the one hand they specialised in counter-terrorism measures.  The legitimate definition was the identification or tracing of terrorists.  Evidence in courts by former members of the ANC and PAC.  Identification of photographs and rehabilitation of these members, to place them back in society.

MR HUGO: Now that was the apparent purpose of this unit?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that was the official purpose.

MR HUGO: There was then also another purpose of this unit, which was kept away from the public as far as possible.  Is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: Now we will deal with that aspect later on. On page 5 you set out the general background and an introduction and you say that during a criminal trial you were convicted of several offences and you set out what sentences were imposed on you, correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: Is it correct that all these sentences of imprisonment are running concurrently?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.  They all run concurrently.

MR HUGO: And initially you were detained in the maximum security section of the Pretoria prison?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: And you have now been in detention for about three years?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, about three years and six months.

MR HUGO: And in this period you have progressed from Category C prisoner to a Category A prisoner?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Hugo, I am sorry to interrupt.  Which of these sentences relate to Motherwell?

MR HUGO: No, none of them relate to the current situation. I am just giving a general background at this stage.  In fact, Chairperson, we will indicate later how it came about that we became involved in the Motherwell matter, because it relates very closely to the criminal trial in which Mr De Kock was involved at the time, and in which he was the chief accused.
	You were recently transferred to a different unit of the prison, known as C Max. Is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: Which obviously must have been a shocking experience for you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, it has been extremely traumatic.

MR HUGO: We turn now to page 8 where you say that - or you give an exposition of your motives and the things which led you to become involved in the acts and offences for which you were convicted and which led you to become involved in the current incident.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: On page 9 you say that you became involved in these acts because you believed steadfastly in the apartheid doctrine and that you also say that extremely sensitive information had been entrusted to you.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: On page 11 you say that now after you have been sentenced and you have time to reflect, that you are extremely disillusioned and you feel that you were used and abused by the previous regime. Is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I have no doubt about that.

MR HUGO: On page 30 there is an aspect which needs to be mentioned.  The perception arose with you that Vlakplaas as a unit, and the chief of Vlakplaas, that it was regarded as a political unit.  Because on an annual basis consideration was given to the fact whether it was still in line with the political doctrines of the time.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR HUGO: Were you told that the position was reconsidered on an annual basis?