Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, there is a difference between in a good condition and doctored weapons.  I think a doctored weapon is something that will possibly explode in your face.  The weapons might have been old weapons, which were taken away from ANC cells or court cases.  Some were in a very good condition, some were in a worse condition and these were not from Vlakplaas, let us just correct this.  This came from security head office.  At that stage Vlakplaas did not have any weapons.

MS PATEL: He says, further, that during the training, the grenades were not used at all, because he was afraid that they were, in fact, doctored.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I do not have any knowledge of that.

MS PATEL: When was the first time that you heard about the operation that was to take place, the attack on the police van?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It was a week before the incident when Jimmy came and told Lieutenant Liebenberg and I, at the Holiday Inn, where we had a room, where we debriefed him and I said, composed the encoded message for head office.  It might have been a week to five days before the time.  I do not know specifically.  I was confronted with this during my Section 29 investigation, but I never got this information, I cannot say whether this was the first document or the first date.

MS PATEL: Okay.  He says he, indeed, approached you the week prior to the incident and this had happened at a stage after which the group had been trained for at least five, six weeks and, as you say, they were anxious to get involved in something and they then put it to him that they wanted to get involved in an incident and the idea came up that they would attack the police van, that would pass this intersection, and that this idea had originally come from Chris Piet.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: To start at the first point, it was not five to six weeks.  I said I arrived here either the 30th of January or the third February.  So, five or six weeks could not have passed.  The idea most probably came from their freedom fighters, but the idea that I had then was, everything that was included in the encoded message came from Jimmy and Eric and I stand with that, I keep to that.

MS PATEL: Okay.  If one then turns to the "kripto berig", if one sees on page, on the last page.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Triple four.

MS PATEL: Which would be numbered, probably, ... (intervention).

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Triple four.

MS PATEL: ... 444, triple four, ja.  The third or the fourth, fifth paragraph.
"Head office sources came with the information during the 27th of February."
So, he confirms that date.  He says that is the time, the date on which he came to see you.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is possible.  If this is, stands like this on paper, then it must be the truth.

MS PATEL: All right, fine.  He says, further, that the idea to attack the van had arisen on the Tuesday prior to the incident and that he told them that they could not just go in and perform an operation of this seriousness without properly checking out the scene where it was to take place and on that basis he managed to postpone the attack on the van and that he himself on the Wednesday morning went through to the area with Chris Piet to survey the area.  He told them, he told Chris Piet and company, further, that they needed to ascertain that the van comes through generally at the same time and that they should do it for a few more days, but that on the Thursday morning he made an excuse and asked Eric to accompany some of the members to the scene and that he then contacted you on the Thursday to inform you of what was happening.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That might be so, because if I saw him the first time on Tuesday I would have told him to try and delay that until we had more information.  I mean, there are ways in which he could get out of the group.  I told him that if they asked him where you were going, that he should say that you had to contact other informers.  He had to go to the city to see if his weapons were correct, ready.  What he has said, thus, could be true, that he came out and he came to see me again to tell me that the people were serious, they wanted to continue with the operation and then I would have asked him is there no possibility that we could get them together at a central point and that we could arrest them.  That is what I would have asked him.  Surely prevention is better than cure.

MS PATEL: Regarding that point, he says further that they generally met in one of two places every day and that that information was made available to yourselves.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: They said that they were meeting at different places at different times, there were no means of communication in Guguletu at that stage.  We do not, did not have cell phones then like we have today.  If he had to page me, he had to go out to one of the other townships and then I would not be near a telephone and when I was at the telephone, he would not be at the same telephone booth.  So, there were communication problems.  You know yourself how ungovernable these Black townships were in the Cape Peninsula at that stage.

MS PATEL: He says further that on the Thursday evening when he met you that you had, indeed, told him to try to delay the matter further and that he then subsequently met you and Mr Liebenberg on the Friday and, in fact, had taken you both out to the scene of the incident, had pointed the exact point at which they would be, he had pointed out the point on the road at which he would drop certain of his members.  So, you knew, according to him, exactly where the incident was going to take place, when it was going to take place and how many people were going to be dropped off at which point.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I am not going to deny this.  As I can, if I can remember correctly, there was a possibility that he could have taken us there, but then there is also the possibility that at, the late stage they would have said, no, we are not taking this bus, we are taking this other vehicle.  We were shown the place, but if Jimmy was not the Commanding Officer of the group, how could he then say to the people that they had to get off their and they had to do this.  Surely that would cast suspicion. I believe that the place was shown to us and that he was, possibly, told to  drive into the pavement that we can arrest you, but things happened differently.

MS PATEL: Why does this information only come out now, Mr Bellingan, that you were actually taken to the scene.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I only remembered it now.

MS PATEL: But, surely, this is crucial, crucial evidence?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I agree, I am not running away from this.  I am suddenly remembering this, I am not disagreeing, it makes sense, the possibility is there.  This is my modus operandi, I would have told him to show me this place, I would not have done it on my own.  The possibility remains, if that is what he says, it is true.

MS PATEL: The only information that you have ever given us in all the proceedings before this, in the Section 29 proceedings that has gone before this, in your applications to us that has gone before this, in your evidence in chief, in your cross-examination, the only evidence that has ever been given to us, Mr Bellingan, is that you received information that they might, possibly, attack the van and that this information was only confirmed to you on Sunday.  So, where does the question of the scene having been pointed to you on the Friday, already, come in?
MR BOOYENS OBJECTS

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, with respect, the witness qualified it with the qualification, the possibility exist.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood him that the further he went on,  he said, yes, I remember this now.  He is shaking his head in agreement.  You did say it, did you not, that you remember he pointed.