Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I call the next applicant, Mr J.H. Vlok.

J H VLOK: (sworn states)

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Vlok, your amnesty application is in Bundle 1 from page 81 to 100 and Annexure B of page 214 to 232.  Your amnesty application you submitted according to the Act, you completed it and signed it?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: In your application you mention that you were charged in the High Court, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What happened in this case?

J H VLOK: The case was withdrawn on the 11th May 1998.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what were you charged with?

J H VLOK: For the Germiston bombing.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that is for that offence that you've applied for amnesty?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you described what happened in full in Annexure A, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You then went to Koesterfontein where you received instructions, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who gave you these instructions and what instructions did you receive?

J H VLOK: Cliff Barnard gave me the instruction or order.  He said that he received instructions from the Staff Generals that chaos must be created during the period of the elections in order to stop the elections, that the people will be prevented from going to the polling booths where they will take part in the election in order to force them to give a Volkstaat

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then get an instruction to go to Germiston?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Nicolas Barnard gave the instruction to accompany Johan de Wet to Germiston.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is there anything else that you would like to add to your application as it appears in front of the Committee?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you confirm the contents of Annexure A and B?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also heard the evidence of Mr Johan de Wet and where his evidence has got something to do with you, do you confirm that?

J H VLOK: Yes I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair as it doesn't concern Bree Street, I will not have any questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Vlok, page 85 paragraph 12, you just gave evidence that your case was withdrawn on the 11th May.  It is not incorrect or in contrast with 12a, is the 11th or the 19th May?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, in May or the 11th May 1989, I appeared in front of them, they then withdrawn the case.  Before that I appeared I think it was on the 19th May as well because it was also in May but in 1997.  They then postponed it pending the amnesty and then with the last hearing they withdraw.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Page 88 you refer to your parents who brought you up in order that - and that different nations were created by God.  Were you also part of this so called Israelis?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: To what church do you belong to?

J H VLOK: I'm in the Afrikaner Protestant Church.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You became involved in the AWB when you were approximately 17 or 18 years old?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you were approximately 20 years old when you started serving in the AWB Headquarters in Ventersdorp?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you were trained and you were the personal bodyguard of Mr Terreblanche?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You were very close to Mr Eugene Terreblanche?

J H VLOK: Yes I worked for him.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You refer to an event where a meeting was held at the dam, paragraph 10, page 91.

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When exactly was this meeting held?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember the specific date because it was so long ago and so many meetings were held during that period but it was the beginning of 1994.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You cannot say when?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us a year?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: He said the beginning of 1994 Mr Chairperson.
Who was present at that meeting?

J H VLOK: The complete Generals and staff that were called up to that meeting and were represented, the leader himself and members of the Volksfront were present there.  I do not exactly know who it was, it was too long ago but I know that the Volksfront were also represented there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Page 92 you make reference to the fact that you looked up to General Viljoen?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You considered him as a very good military leader?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And that you believed in what he said?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you consider him as a good leader?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, General Constand Viljoen, a retired General of the Defence Force - I'm talking now about that period there.

CHAIRPERSON: Please understand me, I'm not saying he was, I'm just asking you why did you think that he was a good leader?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, with his military background I believed that this person has got the ability to help our nation together with the Conservative Party so that he could lead us to freedom in order for us to obtain a Volkstaat and that is why I believed he was a good leader.

ADV GCABASHE: More so than Eugene Terreblanche?  Did you believe in him and his ability to lead your people to true freedom more than you believed in Eugene Terreblanche's ability to that - to be a good leader?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I believed in all our leaders because I knew they had the integrity to lead us otherwise they would not have been placed there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you say, I would just like to have clarity here, you believed that these people would lead you to freedom?  Were you not free at that stage?

J H VLOK: Please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think that you needed freedom in comparison.

J H VLOK: Could you just try again Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think that you needed freedom in comparison with what was available at that stage.

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, we went through a period just before the elections that we believed that if the ANC comes to power we will not get a Volkstaat and that we will lose our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only reason?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, as I just said to you and to add on to that I believed in a Volkstaat, that there can be a Volkstaat where my people and I under Boere leaders and religious people could be leaded in a place where we also had a say just as other nations has got a say.

CHAIRPERSON: Now please help me here, I was never a member of the AWB, I'm trying to understand this.  For me, according to the evidence that I've heard so far it seems to me as if the AWB was established mainly to establish a Volkstaat, is that not true or am I wrong?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, the AWB was established in order to look after the interests of the Afrikaner Volk, the Boerevolk and one of the things that they wanted was a Volkstaat.  Mr Chairperson at that stage it was a Volkstaat, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how old is the AWB?

J H VLOK: Sir, at that stage it was approximately 21 years, I do not know now.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words it's around 1975 when it was established?  Now what was wrong in the country at that stage that necessitated an organisation like that or the founding of an organisation like the AWB?  Everybody knew then that Apartheid was at it's height.