Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was defending myself.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want to put it to you finally that when you killed David the aim was not to achieve any peace nor stability to defend yourself, and I am going to read from your application what you said at page 4 thereof, it will be the eighth line from the bottom of page 4, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee.  If the Chair allows me I will read that portion
"On the 24th December 1990 I was on my way to see my parents as I was nostalgic.  When I was to reach my home the vigilante system attacked and shot indiscriminately.  I had a pump action gun in my possession.  I then drew it and shot.  I did not aim at anyone.  I was just trying to open my way.  Most unfortunately or fortunately ....."
And then the sentence stops.  Did you hear that?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, I've heard that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What do you mean by "they shot indiscriminately, I did not aim at anyone, I just wanted to pave way for myself"?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Sir, it is not that way.  Let me tell you the right version.  I was heading for my home on the day I shot Mayeko.   It was my intention to go home using the same street.  Now when I was in the same road, 658, it is a road that I use when I go to school, when I go anywhere, and when I was in that street this group of men, David Mayeko, Constable Makonza, Scarface and Daniel Sgoqo and David Maseko, they went out of this 658 and they attacked me together with ny co-accused because they saw we were heading for the direction where I stayed and when they pulled out
4	their/...
53	MR NCUBE
their guns because as a human being I realised that no, 
these people are going to kill me because they hunt me at night and they hunt me during the day, not knowing the reasons therefor, and I decided to take out my gun.  I pointed it at them and I shot.  That is the story.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this in his handwriting?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is in his handwriting, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Mpshe, are you ...(intervention).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, this forms part of his application, but in view of what the chair has said I can take this up with him whether this is in his handwriting.  My apologies for having jumped the gun.  Just have a look at that statement, more particularly the handwriting.  Is that your handwriting, is that what you said?  Please be vocal.  Is that your handwriting?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that what you wrote?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, I wrote that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

ADV DE JAGER: Could we just clear up, Adv Dlavane.  The application for amnesty on robbery, is that also withdrawn, or is it only malicious damage that you've withdrawn?

UNKNOWN: Robbery as well.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you regard yourself as a political activist during that time?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That is correct, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you still at school?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You say that the deceased was discussed on various occasions at school amongst fellow students.  Were they also comrades?
4

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: /...
54	MR NCUBE

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was the deceased a notorious person?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: He was very notorious for his actions.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Which include the killing of people, such as Nsavi Uys and so on and so forth?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you said he had been bought by whites to kill political activists.  What made you think so?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: This man was not working, this man was wearing very expensive clothes, this man was carrying a gun during the day and at night.  The same man, even when I was passing going to town, I would see him in the company of policemen drinking beer and that is why I say this man was bought by the police.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was he ever arrested at any stage?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Not at any stage.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Have you ever seen him in the possession of a firearm in the presence of the police?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: To which police station were those policemen attached?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Khutsong Police Station.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is that police station here in this township?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, it is the police station in the township.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: This township is Ikageng, am I right, where we are sitting now?  Never mind, where is Khutsong Township?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Khutsong is in Gauteng Province.   (NOISE)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am asking the applicant very important questions to try and help him clarify very important things in his case.  If you keep on interfering you will confuse him.  Please don't.  Where did the deceased live, in which
4	township/...
55	MR NCUBE
township?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: He was living in Khutsong.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now the policeman in whose company he was on occasions seen possessing a firearm were there policemen attached to Khutsong Police Station?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: They were the policemen at Khutsong, Welverdien Police Station.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I didn't hear.  What police station?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Welverdien.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: We will understand that as Welverdiend Police Station.  Where is it situated?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It is towards Khutsong direction.  When you go straight, when you are taking the Johannesburg road.

ADV DE JAGER: It is on the highway between Carltonville and Potchefstroom, is that correct?  Welverdiend, it is between the two.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, it is between.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You mentioned the name of a policeman or policemen with whom he was on the day that you shot him.  Who was that policeman?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It was Konstabel Nkonza and Scarface and Daniel Sgoqo, David Maseko.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Are they policemen?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: David Maseko is not a policeman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Let's start again.  Nkonza?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It was Konstabel Nkonza, Scarface and Basie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: To which police station were they attached?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: They were also members of Khutsong Police Station.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With respect to the death of Msabi, Themba, Uys, Phiri, was there anybody arrested in respect of those  4	murders/...
55	MR NCUBE
murders?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Nobody was arrested.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were these people killed in Khutsong?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were they comrades?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did anyone of them occupy a position of leadership?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: They were not leaders, they were just students.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you know where Konstabel Mkoza is, Scarface and Basie, do you know where they are and where they are now?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I do not know their way about as we are talking now.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you people not at any stage talk with the US either as members of the SDU and/or the ANC Youth League, did you not confront the police and ask them why they allow this sort of thing to prevail, to happen?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It was difficult to go to the police and negotiate with them because there was nothing that they would say to us as comrades.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You didn't have confidence in the police.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Not at all.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now tell me, I read in the newspapers many years ago that many so-called comrades from various areas took refuge with Father Paul in Soweto, was that correct?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did they come from different places other than Khutsong where you came from?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: They were from different places.