Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I would say as I have explained, there was violence in our township so this was something that we did frequently. And we also continued doing this, even on the day of our operation, we were still doing this.

MR MALAN: Now why, the night after the operation, why did you not continue doing this?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Bongani made it clear that this other operation was part of the struggle, because it too was important. So this other operation would help us secure arms and ammunitions.

MR MALAN: That, that we understand quite clearly. The question is why did you not keep on, if I understand you correctly, you were patrolling the townships nightly, every night up to the time of the incident of the operation. But then you stopped. Why did you not patrol the township the next night, that Friday night, and the Saturday night, and the Sunday night?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I thought you are saying why we did not patrol on Thursday. Bongani, I should say, made it clear that he was going to leave for those days and he was going to see us after a week. We continued as a group to do the patrols after the operation but he was not present.

MR MALAN: Did you continue those patrols?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: After the operation?

MR MALAN: Yes.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes. We continued right up to the day that I heard we were being sought by the police.

MR MALAN: Did you discuss that with any of the other members in the unit?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, we did.

MR MALAN: What did you discuss and what did you decide?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: It was something that had been discussed earlier that after the, this operation he was going to leave and that I, as his deputy, would have to continue with the other comrades to patrol the streets.

MR MALAN: Now what did you do when you learnt the police were looking for you?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: After hearing that we were being sought by the police, I tried to contact other comrades to find out from them as to whether they had heard that we are being sought. But unfortunately, I was not able to contact them. I don't know whether they had already received that information because I was not able to contact them.

MR MALAN: Were you not supposed to meet with them that night? The night when you got the information. Would you not have patrolled with them that night? Couldn't you discuss it with them then?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, we were supposed to continue with the patrol, but now that we were being sought by the police, or should I say, we heard about our being sought by the police before the patrol itself. I think it could have been round nine, ten in the morning.

MR MALAN: Then as deputy, you fled without contacting your other members of the unit. You just fled. You didn't tell the other members anything.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I explained earlier on that I tried to contact the other members of the unit, but unfortunately I was not able to get hold of them.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. When you were patrolling, were you armed?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And as part of these patrols, did you get involved in battles with these attackers?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you exchange gunfire?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this happen quite often?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I would not say often, but there were times when we had confrontation, say for example, we were trying to get into the township we would see them and start fighting them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, have you got re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. No, my honourable member, Mr Wynand Malan covered points I wanted to cover in a re-examination which were raised.

CHAIRPERSON: Very good. Yes. Oh yes, Adv Gcabashe?

ADV GCABASHE: Your date of arrest, do you remember it? '92, January?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I was arrested in June 1992.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume you want Mr Ngubeni to be excused, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, if the honourable members are through with questioning, then I will call the next witness.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. My next applicant is Trevor Masilo. Chairperson, he is Sotho-speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Masilo, will you please stand?

TREVOR MASILO: (sworn and states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Masilo, the affidavit which is before is also before the honourable Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

TREVOR MASILO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, should I read it for the record? I will only, it is short, the affidavit.
"I, the undersigned, Trevor Masilo, do hereby make an oath and state that I am the applicant herein, having submitted my application whilst being held at Leeukop ...(indistinct) Prison, Gauteng. The facts to which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unless the contents indicate otherwise.
I was born on the 20th November 1970 at Vosloorus. I am the last born of six children. My parents divorced while I was still young and I was brought up by my mother. My mother first worked at ...(indistinct) Hotel and worked at Boksburg Old Age Home until she was pensioned.
I started schooling at Detomo Primary until Std 1 and moved to Bulugoneng until Std 4 where I left due to financial problem as my mother was not working then.
I joined PAC though Azanla in 1990. I joined the task force of Apla in 1991 under the command of Apla Commander Bongani Moyo. In waging the armed struggle, Apla had set up task forces which consisted of internally trained cadres. I was also one of those cadres belonging to task force.
My general instruction as a task force member was to assist when called upon to execute certain orders which could be geared towards advancing the armed struggle, directly or indirectly. It was in this context that I became part of the unit that attacked and repossessed the Cash in Transit vehicle near Cleveland.
The affidavit of Comrade Ngubeni has been read to me. I understand the contents and confirm it in so far as it relates to me and respectfully request that the same be incorporated in this affidavit.
I am presently serving 28 years for armed robbery, two murders and possession of arms and ammunition. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in this operation. Signed by the applicant."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. That will be Exhibit B.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, I'm not intending to lead any more, the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Any questions, Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions from the Panel?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes. Yes, thank you. Again, Mr Masilo, just tell us a bit about your political training, political education, military training and your activities as a member of the task force before September of '91.