Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  Today we'll be commencing the hearing relating to the so called Zevenfontein incident.  Before we start I'd just like to introduce the panel to those of you who were not here yesterday.
	On my right is Advocate Sibongile Sigodi, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she comes from Port Elizabeth.  On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, he is an attorney, also a member of the Amnesty Committee, and he comes from Pietermaritzburg.  And I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court in the Eastern Cape, particularly from Umtata.
	The proceedings will be simultaneously translated into English, Zulu and Sotho.  In order to benefit from the translation you must be in possession of one of these devices.  If you haven't got one and you want to use the interpretation, I suggest that you ask the sound technician up front, and you can get one of these from him.  If you want to hear English then you turn to channel number 2, it's on here, you can see the number.  If you want Zulu, channel number 3, and if you want Sotho, channel number 4.  
	I'd just like to ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR DRAHT: Morning Mr Chairperson, I'm Heiko Draht from Nel Kotze and van Dyk, attorneys in Pretoria, assisted by Mr Chris van der Heyde from JH van der Merwe attorneys.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Draht.  Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My name is Dawie Claassen.  I'll be representing Mr Magwaza and Sithole and today's applications.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: My name is Cachalia, spelt C A C H A L I A, initials MSH, of the firm NG Patel, Cachalia and Loonat of Johannesburg, on behalf of all the victims that have been notified of this particular application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cachalia.

MS LOCKHAT: My name is Ms Lynn Lockhat, I appear on behalf of the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat.  Mr Claassen, you have some submissions to make?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do indeed.  I think today is to a great extent a repetition of the situation we had yesterday with Mr Mbatha.  There is, however, in my opinion a few differences in who this application came to be forwarded, came to be before this Committee.  Mr Chair if I could just ask the Committee to indulge me for a few minutes, I don't want to seem to be flogging a dead horse, but I'm sure that the situation is slightly different to the one we had yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  If I might, I've prepared some photocopies of correspondence we had with the TRC preceding today's application, if I could just.  I've already supplied Ms Lockhat and Mr Cachalia with a copy, if I could just bring this to the attention of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry, just before we proceed.  I believe it's going to get quite warm today.  If you wish to remove jackets, please feel free to do so.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  It's not been paginated, I hope, but it's only a few pages, I'm sure it's.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Claassen, just for record purposes, we'll receive this bundle as EXHIBIT A, and then the letter dated the 17th of September 1997 that'll be A1 and the next document, this fax, will be A2 fax from Hoskin, and then the letter, well we'll, the front page of the application, we'll call A3, the next letter dated the 2nd of November will be A4, and then the last letter, that is the letter of the 16th November 98, will be A5.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you.  Mr Chairman if I might just start referring to the bundle, and specifically Mr Magwaza's application.  I think in the bundle, specifically on page 49, it is shown that Mr Magwaza on the 7th of May 1997 submitted an application to the TRC which was received and then given a submission number 6447/97.  Mr Chair I would also refer to this then as the application, the applicant's first application.  And if one notes the contents of the application, to a great extent the applicant denies any guilt or involvement in the incident for which the applicants are before this Committee today.  Mr Chair, based on this particular application, he was also then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It was received on the 7th of May 97.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chairman and if I may refer the Committee to page 47 of the bundle, the 8th of September 1997 he was, a decision was made based on this particular application, in which amnesty was denied on the basis that guilt in the application was denied by the applicant.
	Mr Chair if I might then refer to the exhibit handed out, and specifically the letter from the law firm of van der Westhuizen and Associates, dated the 17th of September 1997, which specifically refers to this decision made by, or taken by the Amnesty Committee.  Mr Chair I don't know if you would just like me to read it out?  Alright.  There's just certain, there's just specific, I'm sure the Committee will follow from the, what's said in here it's basically brought to the Committee's attention that the first application appears to be not the true facts and the applicant would like to submit a further application.  
Specifically referring to point 5, it appears that it was arranged that due to the facts set out there, that further particulars or further submission would be made to the Amnesty Committee, which would then be done, and specifically point 7, paragraph 7 in this letter, which it says that the Amnesty Committee is requested to hold the matters over until the, it could be classified as hearable.  If I may refer to EXHIBIT A2, which is then a return from Advocate van der Merwe, sorry, it appears from the amnesty application I see it's signed by Ms Hoskins, or Martin Coetzee, and which, it refers to the previous letter sent to them, and also just giving the reason why it was decided not to grant the applicant amnesty, and the first page of the applicant's first application.  Mr Chair I'd specifically like to refer to the last paragraph, and if I may, where it is requested
"...please submit the new application before 30th September 1997.  Hopefully it will clarify matters."
And the new fax number is given.  Mr Chair if I may continue, based on this, if I go to A4 of the bundle, and it is said here that apparently Ms van der Westhuizen's firm has been informed that the matter was classified as hearable, and just that they have not received any further correspondence and would like the matter to be taken further.  
Mr Chair, A5 of the bundle I think that is basically on which this whole, my whole argument, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Claassen, Advocate van der Merwe, where does he fit into the picture?  I see this A2 it's addressed to Advocate van der Merwe with a copy to Colleen Henchie.  I see from the correspondence Colleen Henchie is, she's attached to the firm of attorneys who had dealings with your client.

MR CLAASSEN: That is correct Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Was advocate van der Merwe, was he involved in the trial, or where does he fit into the picture?

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair, to be quite honest, I'm not really sure how he fits in.  I was under the impression, and I've got no specific instructions concerning this, that he was just a member of the TRC dealing with the applications.  Now I see from what is said in this letter, obviously it appears that he has got some prior knowledge of what has been going on.  But as far as I know he's employed by the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen this fax is addressed to van der Merwe, from the Amnesty Committee.  If you can see its to van der Merwe from Martin Coetzee, whose the executive secretary of the Amnesty Committee.  Clearly van der Merwe had some dealings with the matter, either via Colleen Henchie, of some description, or ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, Miss Lockhat, is there an advocate van der Merwe employed by the TRC?  I am unaware of it, but I don't know everybody.