Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... he did not report anything serious to me and I believed that if there had been anything serious Falati would have reported to me.

MR KUNY: A clapping, Mrs Mandela, in my language, is an assault, but I will not take that any further.  Now, I want to ask you about the medical record that was presented to you.  When you were presented the medical record by Mr Vally, it was indicated on that medical record that you had been to see Dr Asvat with Mr Cebekhulu on the 30th of December 1988 and you said you did not dispute that.  You said that it could be true.

MR SEMENYA: Now, now, Chairperson, I think ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, you are distorting.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon.  Chairperson, I think my learned colleague would want to be careful.  What was put was that according to the medical card of Cebekhulu, he would have been at the doctor on the 30th.  It was never said she had brought Cebekhulu to the surgery on the 30th.

MR KUNY: With due respect, that is not my understanding of the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just go ahead, yes.

MR KUNY: When the medical card was presented to you which indicated that Cebekhulu had been brought to the surgery on the 30th of December you did not dispute that that record was, in fact, correct.  Is that not so?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not dispute the writing and the record on the card, but I took Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat on the 29th.  What happened, how they do their administration is not really my concern.

MR KUNY: Well, you see there is a problem with this, because if, in fact, that record is correct, Madam, then your alibi is false.  Is that not so?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is ludicrous Mr Chairman.  I took Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat on the 29th.

MR KUNY: Can I just ask, ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MR KUNY: ... at your trial ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, with respect, the height of the evidence about the record does not go as far as to say Cebekhulu on that day was brought by client, it only says Cebekhulu on that particular day, the name of the patient is Cebekhulu, the date on it is the 30th.  The one inference we are able to make is that Cebekhulu was at the surgery on that day.  The next inference, which is not possible and which is my, what my learned colleague is attempting to do, is to say Cebekhulu was brought by client.  I do not see how that flows from the card.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, I am really unable to deal with this objection in the time which you have allotted me.  I believe the evidence speaks for itself.  I think that my learned friend is attempting to object to very pertinent cross-examination and I am in a situation where I cannot deal with the objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just find out whether, in fact, Mr Cebekhulu went twice ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ... to the doctor.  Yes.

MR KUNY: I think that this, I think that properly speaking Mrs Mandela should deal with that evidence.  Did ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I took Cebekhulu, Mr Chairman, once to Dr Asvat, on the 29th.  Whether he went again on the 30th I, is not known to me.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, may I take this issue up with Mrs Mandela?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: Well, are you saying then that if the date on that card is correct, the 30th of December, then, in fact, Mr Cebekhulu must have been taken back the following day?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not saying anything of the sort, Sir.

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am saying I took Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Ja.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... on the 29th.

MR KUNY: Are you disputing, then, the date as it stands on the medical record?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no knowledge of the date of the 20th, ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: You see ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... of the 30th on that card.  I am saying I took Cebekhulu ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Can ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... to Dr Asvat on the 29th and I am sure you can find that in the court record.

MR KUNY: You see, what is startlingly mysterious and strange about that medical card, is that you say in your evidence when Mr Cebekhulu presented himself to you he was mentally confused.  Is that not correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was part of the problem, yes.

MR KUNY: Yes, that is an observation which you made?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja.

MR KUNY: Now, if you are suggesting that he went back the following day, on the 30th, without you then it is quite remarkable that the medical card, on the medical card is made an observation that the patient there was mentally confused, cries insomnia.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I made no such observation to the effect that he went twice.  I merely said I took him to Dr Asvat on the 29th and the question was put to me, well, you are not listening.

MR KUNY: And there is another ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, wait now, I think, I mean, that line of questioning can be taken up possibly by the panel, because you really have gone way beyond ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... the ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: With respect, Mr Chairperson, I, if I may be just given a little bit more time.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I do not, I mean, I have told you the constraints under which we are operating.

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I give you, no, no, one last minute, one minute and see, if you cannot make it, tough luck.

MR KUNY: You see, Mrs Mandela, the record shows that sedative, a sedative hypnotic drug was prescribed on the 30th of December.  That is consistent with the medication which was, which with, sedative medication which was prescribed on your visit, on the 29th of December.  Would you not agree with me as far as that is concerned?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: With great respect, Sir, ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Ja.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... I can only tell you about the events of the 29th.

MR KUNY: Well, Mrs Mandela, I put it to you, if I may just, one aspect, do you intend to call witnesses who will corroborate the fact that you were in Brandfort on the 29th to the 31st of December in these proceedings?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not know I am on trial in these proceedings, Mr Chairman.

MR KUNY: You did ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And I did not know I have come here for your inquisition.

MR KUNY: You did not consider it necessary to discuss this with your counsel that these witnesses should perhaps be made available to the TRC?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no idea what atrocities are supposed to have been committed by my taking Cebekhulu on the 29th ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: You see ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... to the doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Let that be your last question.

MR KUNY: If I may just put one last submission, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: You see, what I want to put to you, Mrs Mandela, is that if you look at the evidence that is presented before this Commission, that the truth, in your hands, is a, is putty which you can simply mould ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Can we ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: ... to suit your own ends.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Chairman, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is a preposterous statement.  I beg of you not to talk to me like that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, wait a bit, order please.  I think, I mean, that the legal representative can put a proposition and I think, I mean, that you can dispute that fact.  Though, again, one has to keep saying that it is probably better in a charge, sort of, environment to look for less ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, I am merely doing my duty to my client.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: So am I.