Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

AZHAR CACHALIA: Years, months, days.  Tell us what you mean by long time ago, sir.

MR SITHOLE: It will be years, number of years.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you are not able to recollect the name of the person.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: No, I don't remember.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now, who.  Sorry, my colleague and myself here are both a little naive about these matters.  Is an AK-47 also an automatic machine gun?  Because that was referred to in your trial.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that's what they said in Court, that it's an automatic.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, the question that we really don't know the answer to, is an AK-47 an automatic gun?

MR SITHOLE: I don't know automatic.  I only know that this is a firearm.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you.  Somebody else might be able to assist us.  Be that as it may, Mr Sithole, what I want to put to you is that you, in order to shoot buck, you had asked this  person whose name you do not know, to lend you his automatic, sorry his AK-47.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we've got that answer.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And having got that, who told you how to use it?

MR SITHOLE: He showed me himself.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Did he teach you how you operate that gun?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, he did show me as to how to use this particular firearm.

AZHAR CACHALIA: How many lessons did he have to give you?

MR SITHOLE: He taught me how to pull the trigger and how, what to do in order for the gun to discharge the bullet.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Are you suggesting that it was all in one lesson?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then after having shot buck on that one day many years ago, the first time you used an AK-47 after that was on the 12th of February 1994?

MR SITHOLE: No, I'd never used the gun between that period.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That's what I'm saying yes.  Alright, be that as it may.  Did Mr Magwaza know that you had shot buck with an automatic AK-47 before?

MR SITHOLE: No, he did not know.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Why did he then give you the gun to use, if he didn't know if you were able to use it in the first place or not?

MR SITHOLE: He had two firearms, and he gave me one.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, that's not the question.  The question is, if Mr Magwaza didn't know how you, whether you could or could not use the gun, why did he give it to you?

MR SITHOLE: Magwaza had two guns, and he said, Sithole here is another one.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Final attempt Mr Sithole.  I am saying to you, Mr Magwaza didn't know whether you could or could not use an automatic AK-47.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: He did not know.  Magwaza did not know that I could use this AK because I never made mention of the fact to him that I once used it previously.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now the question that I am asking you is if he didn't know, why did he entrust you with the most lethal weapon that was in existence on that day?  Why did he entrust it to you?

MR SITHOLE: I don't know to him, that is really up to him why he did what he did.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole I want to remind you once more that when you are giving evidence to this particular Committee one of the pre-conditions is that you must make full, honest, disclosure.  Your evidence must be acceptable as a full disclosure of what you are telling us.  Do you still wish to stay by with what you just have told us?

MR SITHOLE: The truth that I've disclosed to this Commission is exactly what I've said and I stand by it.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole, you had before we went for lunch we had discussed the question of the arrangement of the meeting at five o'clock on the Saturday the 12th of February between the ANC and yourselves.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I do remember that we were discussing about that fact.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you had agreed that there was a meeting that was arranged for five o'clock on Saturday.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I did agree.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you also agreed that that was a meeting between the ANC and the IFP and any other committees that might have an interest in the matter, in the community.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And this meeting was to take place at the soccer ground.

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And the soccer ground is between Mr Magwaza's house and Mr Brown's house, on the one end.

CHAIRPERSON: What's the second name Mr Cachalia?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Brown, my apologies Mr Brown, Brown.

MR SITHOLE: Yes, that is true.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now you've given us a long version of what in fact transpired that day, that it was raining, that you had changed your clothes, that the people were attacking, that, what happened at that meeting that was supposed to be held?

MR SITHOLE: We did not have that meeting ultimately because it was raining, pouring, very heavy.  So there was no meeting.

AZHAR CACHALIA: It was raining on your own version at one o'clock.  Is that correct?

MR SITHOLE: From one.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Until?

MR SITHOLE: Until late in the afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Cachalia.  Was the meeting, are you saying the meeting just didn't occur because of the rain, or did people get together say let's postpone this meeting to some other day?  Was any arrangement made or did it just not happen?

MR SITHOLE: The meeting did not take place as a result of this rain, because it was raining heavily, so we did not have the meeting.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What time did you say the rain stopped?

MR SITHOLE: It rained continuously until late at night.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Oh, I thought you had just told us that it rained until late in the afternoon, and now you're saying it rained the whole afternoon until that night.

MR SITHOLE: It rained the whole night.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What you are saying is you're retracting your evidence that it rained until late in the afternoon.

MR SITHOLE: I don't think I meant to say the rain stopped.  I meant to say, or I was saying, it was raining continuously, until dusk, until I went to bed as well.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Let me just remind you of what else you have said.  You had told us that at some time in the day, during that particular day, because of the very heavy rains your shack was flooded, you had to clean that up, then you had to change your clothing, and before you went to Magwaza's house you had in fact changed your clothing.  Is that right?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Had the rain stopped for you to allow you to change your clothing and to get into dry clothes?

CHAIRPERSON: He said, Mr Cachalia, that in fact he changed  his clothing twice.  He changed it once then he met some people then he had to go back and change it again.  So he changed twice.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Is that correct Mr Sithole?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Did the rain stop to allow you to change your clothes or you just decided you're going to change your clothes because you were too wet?

MR SITHOLE: The rain did not stop.  I changed still, and after this fight erupted I never went back to change, I continued in this whole thing without changing and also I feared to go home to change into other clothes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole, you have told us, and I think my clients agree, that they got on, that the IFP and the ANC until that particular day had got on very well, until that day the previous day had got on very well and that if there were any problems they would approach you and you would sort them out.  Is that correct?

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair if I may, I don't think they got on very well with the, I think there was evidence led that they had some altercations.  I don't think got on very well is an exact situation at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I think perhaps technically you may be correct.  But up until that stage Mr Sithole, is it correct that there was no real violence between the ANC and IFP at Zevenfontein and in fact most of the disputes that may have arisen between the two groups were sorted out by means of dialogue and agreement?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, we will solve any problems that transpired with no violence at all.