Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR STANDER: What about the other police officers that said: "Yes it was sometime called Violent Street" do you think that they are telling lies?

MR MAMOME: It's because there was a sticker written Violent Street.

MR STANDER: Did you as police officers never refer to this specific passage as Violent Street?

MR MAMOME: I did not know it as Violent Street.

MR STANDER: How long did you say have you been working at security branch?

MR MAMOME: I arrived there in 1980, it was about six years that I was there.

MR STANDER: And you said you never knew that this passage was the so-called Violent Street.

MR MAMOME: You're telling me.

MR STANDER: Are you saying that this is the first time that you've heard?

MR MAMOME: That's correct.

MR STANDER: Well, I find that very strange but let's leave it at that.  I want to put it to you that you did not merely ask the calm questions that you said you did, you played an active role in the interrogation of these persons and the assault of  these people?   What do you have to say in this regard?

MR MAMOME: I don't enjoy beating up a detained person and I don't beat people and I did not beat up anyone.

MR STANDER: So all the witnesses who testified here as to their assaults, they must all have been telling a total lie.

MR MAMOME: They know themselves they were not assaulted.

MR STANDER: Do you agree that they had no reason to come and lie to this Committee?

MR MAMOME: They don't have any reason to lie before this Committee.

MR STANDER: That it why it is even more improbable   ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible) a reason to lie to the Committee Or did you say they had no reason to lie to the Committee.

MR MAMOME: They don't have a reason, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What was it?

MR STANDER: He says they don't have a reason.
	On this particular day, Did you see anybody else who was assaulting these people?

MR MAMOME: i did not see anyone Sir.

MR STANDER: Did you see Mr Motsamai where he was assaulting people?

MR MAMOME: I was not working with this boy.

MR STANDER: But he says that he assaulted them, some of them.

MR MAMOME: Mr Stander, we work in different offices. What happens in another man's office is unknown to you.  Whether he assaulted him, it might have taken place in his office, I was not there.

MR STANDER: Did you, at any stage, late that afternoon, see the group together again?

MR MAMOME: Which group, Mr Stander?

MR STANDER: With the group of 19 people.

MR MAMOME: I do not remember, Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: Were you present or involved in the transferring of the group of 19 to other police stations?

MR MAMOME: Yes, I was present.

MR STANDER: Where there any of these who appeared to have been injured or assaulted?

MR MAMOME: I took a group that was taken to Bloemspruit, among them no one showing any sign of assault.

MR STANDER: Was Oupa Makubalo part of the group that you took to Bloemspruit?

MR MAMOME: I do not remember, Mr Stander.

MR STANDER: Was there not one member in your group who was taken to Bloemspruit who seemed to have been assaulted?

MR MAMOME: No, no one.

MR STANDER: How did you decide which people were to go to which police station or did you decide this beforehand?  I just want your assistance here.

MR MAMOME: I was not part of the decision makers as to who should go where.  We were only - I only - don't ask me who told us because I cannot remember but I know that this group was supposed to be taken to Bloemspruit.

MR STANDER: At that stage, was the group together in totality when you decided who was going where and who would take whom or how did it work?

MR MAMOME: They were already grouped.

MR STANDER: And you say the group that you took, that not one of them were assaulted.

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

MR STANDER: Tell me, what do you say about the fact that Mr Motsamai said that he assaulted some of the people in the group of 19?

MR MAMOME: I really do not know, maybe he assaulted them in my absence.

MR STANDER: If he were to have assaulted these people do you think they would have made loud noises due to the assaults that were made on them?

MR MAMOME: Mr Stander, I believe so.

MR STANDER: Did you hear any such sounds on that day?

MR MAMOME: In our office?  Nothing.

MR STANDER: Do you want to tell us that those assaults, even those to have been committed by Motsamai that they did not take place?

MR MAMOME: Mr Stander, I do not know what was done by Mr Motsamai, I do not know it at all.

MR STANDER: But I'm asking you, if a person is assaulted then surely he is going to scream and make a noise.

MR MAMOME: Mr Stander, If a person screams, I would hear, if a person does not scream, how would I hear?

MR STANDER: Because witness after witness has testified that how they screamed but the simple question I am putting to you is, let us accept for the moment that it was only Motsamai that had assaulted them on that day, then surely, someone should have heard the screaming but according to you, you heard no screaming at all.

MR STANDER: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Stander, I think you could take this further in argument.

MR STANDER: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stander, I think the time has come to remind you that you were told during the adjournment that in the procedure laid down, we have a right to limit cross examination.  And it appears to me that you have been repeating and repeating the same points witness after witness were it's now become a matter of argument, hasn't it?  Is there any point in this constant repetition?

MR STANDER: I am of the opinion that the last question that I put - I do not want to cross swords with you, but these are the improbabilities that I have to prove before this Committee, that I can argue in this regard.  And if I do point them out to the witnesses then the argument that I want to hold at the end of the day will sound hollow.
    But I have followed your train of thought and I will try to shorten my questions with regard to the other aspects.  
     Let us go over to the matter of Mr Makubalo.  Can you tell us what was the reason that you took your firearm with you the day that you wanted to go and arrest Oupa Makubalo?

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, I do not carry a gun, I do not go around with a gun.  As I am sitting here, I don't have a gun.  I have never carried a gun.

MR STANDER: So that day you did not have a firearm with you either?

MR MAMOME: I did not have a gun.

MR STANDER: Was it not dangerous to go into the black townships without a weapon, because I understand that there was unrest in the townships?

MR MAMOME: It is true, but Chairperson at that time there were many people in the Kombi and they all had firearms.

MR STANDER: So you placed your safety in the hands of those who were with you in the vehicle?

MR MAMOME: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR STANDER: Why did you jump out and start running because you did not have a firearm with you?  You just told us that you entrusted your safety to the people who were in the vehicle.

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, it was daylight, I could see Oupa Makubalo and he did not have any weapon with him.

MR STANDER: Were you not scared of him or for the group that he was with because you suspected him of murder?

MR MAMOME: Oupa was not in a group.

MR STANDER: You fired the first shots that day, that's what we we were told. What do you say about that?

MR MAMOME: I did not have a gun Chairperson, it can't be me.

MR STANDER: Tell me, when you caught up to Oupa Makubalo, did he walk back with you voluntarily?

MR MAMOME: Oupa was walking.  He was not a kind of person who would resist the arrest, he would go by the rules.

MR STANDER: Did you see that one of his front teeth was missing?

MR MAMOME: I did not realise that.

MR STANDER: Did you not see it?

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

MR STANDER: I want to put it to you that you were the person who either hit or kicked out his front tooth.