Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-21

MR VISSER: Chairperson, yes, I'm just on a slightly different track and the track I'm following from the first question and that question being, Mrs Miller is convinced in her mind that the body that was exhumed belonged to that of Mrs Kubheka.  And I'm going to ask questions of her to indicate to you that her mind was clouded with prejudice when she came to these conclusions, Chairperson.  Because that's the direct evidence before you at the moment, this body belongs to Mrs Kubheka.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Visser.  Ms Thabethe, will it be possible when convenient, as soon as possible, to make arrangements for the Section 29 hearing of Mr Taylor, copies to be obtained.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I'll have to phone Cape Town because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, obviously it will be in Cape Town, because as far as I know all records of Section 28 hearings certainly are meant to be kept, so it should be available.

MS THABETHE: Can I ask ...(indistinct) then, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: No, but we don't needn't do it now, I just wanted to mention, when it's convenient just to ask them to track it down.  Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mrs Miller, if I may continue.  You say in your evidence if I understood you correctly, that in discussions which you had with the applicants, now where did these discussions with, which applicants are you talking about first of all?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Mr Wasserman.  I had great difficulty having any discussion with Mr du Preez.

MR VISSER: So you had no discussions with him?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I contacted him on several occasions, but he wouldn't communicate or discuss anything regarding the cases.

MR VISSER: Mrs Miller, did you have discussions with him?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Not regarding the cases.

MR VISSER: Ja, fine.

STEPHANIE MILLER: ... except at the grave sites, at the other exhumations where we had discussions.

MR VISSER: Whom did you have discussions with?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I had discussions with Mr du Preez, Mr van der Westhuizen, all of them at the grave sites.  I did try and have informal discussions with Mr du Preez as part of our investigations prior to the exhumations, which were not successful.  I did have discussions with Mr Wasserman and I did have informal discussions with Mr Taylor at the Section 29 hearing, but not as part of the hearing.

MR VISSER: Alright.  And you went on to say that it was not clear to you why the body of Mrs Kubheka would have been taken away from Winkelspruit, because that would have made, according to the applicants what they did, would have made it difficult for the family to find the body, is that your evidence?

MR LAX: That wasn't he evidence, with the greatest of respect, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: That's what I wrote down.

MR LAX: She was talking about why the body was dumped where it was, because the family were from KwaMashu, she was saying why it was taken away from Winkelspruit and dumped in that area.  So your note is probably a little bit incomplete, but that was the full extent of her evidence.

MR VISSER: Was to make it difficult for the family to find her.

MR LAX: No, she said that made it more difficult, she didn't make identification easy.  That was the gist of her evidence.

MR VISSER: Let's ...(intervention)

STEPHANIE MILLER: I'll answer your questions.

MR VISSER: Yes?

STEPHANIE MILLER: It seemed to me that it would have been easier, logically, to have disposed of the body closer to Winkelspruit, not necessarily at Winkelspruit, because the applicants made it quite clear that they did not want the body found near where the safe-house was or where they had other people or where she had died, they were protecting the camp.  They also said at some stage that they disposed of the body in the area where it was disposed of, to make it easier for the family to locate the remains.

MR VISSER: That's the point.

STEPHANIE MILLER: However, it is my opinion that it did make it easier for the family to find the remains, because if they had disposed of the body where they said they had disposed of the body, the remains would have been taken to a mortuary which was fairly substantially far from the family, it wouldn't have been close-by, and there was no logical reason why the family would scour the veld to look for the deceased.
	My other concern which I did not raise earlier, was that there was a great deal of violence in Bambai, which is an area where they are alleged to have disposed of the body at that time. 
	Now I can't exactly describe how much violence there was, whether it was every day or twenty times a day, but there was extensive violence in the area.  As a result of which the local community, both the political divisions had SPUs and SDUs posted at night.  Two white men in a, what was identifiable as a likely police vehicle, if it was a Skyline, disposing of a body on the side of the road, would have been observed, given the situation that prevailed in Natal at the time.  So I questioned whether that was possible, given my reasoning and my knowledge of the area of the time, whether they would in fact have disposed of at that place at that time and why they would have travelled with the deceased in the vehicle over such an extensive distance.

MR VISSER: Where was the body found?  This body number 580, where was it found?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Two kilometres away from the site that was pointed out to us.

MR VISSER: And there were no SDU and SPU guards there do you suppose?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Not at that specific place, because there was a security base fairly close by.

MR VISSER: There was a security what?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Base, fairly close by.  My memory is a little vague and I'm not sure whether it was the South African Defence Force base or a Police base or a combined Force base, but in the locality there was a base.

MR VISSER: Who pointed out this site where this body was found, to you?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I located the site by finding out the house number where the person reporting the body had been.

MR VISSER: Was this body found near a house?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, the body was found in an open area, it appears, near where there used to be a brickwork, which no longer exists.  The house that stood at that site has since been relocated, a school has been built on that site.

MR VISSER: So nobody pointed out the exact site to you where this body was found?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Nobody pointed out the exact site.

MR VISSER: But you tell us today that it was approximately two kilometres away from where the applicants told this Committee ...(intervention)

STEPHANIE MILLER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: ... the body of Kubheka was deposited?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And you say at that site there wouldn't have been any guards, but at this site where the applicants pointed out, there would have been guards of SPUs and SDUs, who would have noticed a Skyline motor car depositing a body?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, I'm saying that it is less likely that there would be SPUs or SDUs in that specific vicinity.  That is not what governed by thinking, we knew where the body had been found by the reports of where the body had been collected.  In the mortuary report.

MR VISSER: Mrs Miller, were you present at the inspection in loco?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Correct.

MR VISSER: That body was taken and driven for 54 kilometres from Winkelspruit to within two to five kilometres, depending on how you measured the distance, from the home of Mrs Kubheka.  Would you agree with that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: It's possible it's that close, I don't think it's two kilometres, it certainly could be five or seven.

MR VISSER: Well it was between two and five.  Those were the guesses.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I think it's a little further, but it's not that different.

MR VISSER: Make it ten if you wish.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Okay.

MR VISSER: Relatively, the body was taken to the area where she lived, isn't that so?