Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-21

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, before the witness is sworn in, might the following be placed on record.  It is to be common cause between the applicant ... (tape ends) ... that three police uniform buttons were found in front of the entrance of the Bongweni police station charge office after the abduction.  Point number two, 30 metres from the charge office door, a spent 9 mm cartridge was found on the ground.  Point three, that the following apparent bullet wounds, bullet entry wounds were observed on the body of Sergeant Mbhele by his brother, Bekhi Mbhele at the mortuary where the body laid shortly after his death.
	They are bullet wound in the chest, four bullet wounds in the back and five in the forehead.  In addition, Sergeant Mbhele was observed to have had broken front teeth.  His teeth having been intact as far as the family knew, before the abduction.
	And finally, by consent, I submit to the Panel a copy of the post-mortem  medical legal report, drawn up in respect of Sergeant Ngubo.  It is admitted by the applicants that the contents, the document is what it purports to be, it correctly reflects the injuries observed by the Pathologist, Prof Botha who performed the post-mortem.  As the Panel pleases.
	That then dispenses with the calling of witnesses to deal with these aspects.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair.  May I first of all confirm that we do not dispute the three things mentioned by the learned counsel.
	Honourable Chair, I am now going to proceed to call the evidence of Luyanda Ntikinca, which is going to be very brief.

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: (sworn states)

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair.  Mr Ntikinca, everything has been said.  I just want to confine you to page 58 of the application, the application you made for amnesty.
	I just want to read.  Both policemen disarmed one member of our unit, they succeeded and shot him.  They then ran away, we started firing to their direction, following them.  Here is what is important, we cornered and shot them but at different directions.
	Now, what the Honourable Panel wants you to explain is the clause we cornered and shot them.  Do you understand?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: Please explain that?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: As they got out of the kombi, trying to run away ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just go slowly please.

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: As they were getting out of the car, trying to run away, shooting, we were also trying to shoot towards their direction.

MR NOTUNUNU: Mr Ntikinca, please don't be fast, because we need to interpret.  And then, proceed?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: As I said, we were trying to troop towards their direction, we were trying to corner them with the bullets.  The firing was concentrated towards their direction.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by cornered?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: I am trying to say that we were not shooting towards the direction they were not going towards, we were trying to shoot towards their own direction.
	This is why I am saying the firing was concentrated.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now by cornering, are you saying that by cornering you mean that you cornered them with firing, is that what you mean?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, listen to me, generally when people refer to being cornered, it means that they are in a position of no escape.  Do you understand that?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the word cornered has been used in your application by you, in that context of being unable to escape, is that what you meant and if not, what did you actually mean?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: That is what I mean.  We did not want such that whilst we were shooting, they get away.  We were running towards them.

MR NOTUNUNU: Is that all you wanted to say, explaining the word cornering?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: Yes.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: There was another aspect you needed to deal with.

MR NOTUNUNU: I think it was the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was attending to the problem of the motor vehicle.

MR NOTUNUNU: Oh, thank you Judge.  Explain this thing of attending to the motor vehicle, Mr Ntikinca.

CHAIRPERSON: Read to him what he said there, or wrote there.

MR NOTUNUNU: What you have said in your amnesty application, I am going to read, you said the following
	The car started to give us mechanical problems.  While we were concentrating on that, both policemen disarmed our member, one member of our unit, sorry, guarding them.
	Now, what do you mean by concentrating on the problem the car was giving?  What do you mean by that?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: I mean that as the car was jerking and I was the one who was driving, I was trying to start the car again, not knowing what was causing the car to jerk.
	That is what I was focusing on.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Did you actually go out during that moment, and opened the bonnet of the vehicle to see what the problem was.

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: No.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you very much Honourable Chair.

MR NOTUNUNU: .

MR BRINK: As the two policemen were attempting to escape by running away from the vehicle, did the three of you who were uninjured, give chase together?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: No.   As comrade already said, we took cover towards the front.  Others went towards the back.  We split up, we did not go in the same direction as we got out of the car.

MR BRINK: As the three of you opened fire on the two fleeing policemen, were you firing from near the vehicle?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: Please repeat your question.

MR BRINK: As the three of you opened fire on the fleeing policemen, were you standing or were you near the vehicle?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: When the police were running away?

MR BRINK: That is right?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: I request that as I answer this question, I elaborate so that it is clear in your minds.
	When we got out of the kombi, comrade Nyembezi and I went to the front of the car.  The one policeman that Nyembezi and I were chasing, was running without having crossed the road.  The other one had crossed the road.
	They were both moving away from the car or the vehicle.  We had split up already as comrades, whilst running after these policemen because they were both running towards the same direction, however the one was on one side of the road, and the other, across the road.

MR BRINK: As they ran away in the same direction, did the three of you then pursue them together?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: Yes.

MR BRINK: Shooting at them?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: Yes.

MR BRINK: Well, in what sense then did this two policemen become cornered since they were moving away from you?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: As I have already explained, first of all it was dark, we did not want to shoot in the wrong direction, therefore we had to shoot or try to shoot where the policemen were.  You could also hear from the sound of their bullets, which direction they were.
	That is how we cornered them.

MR BRINK: Did the policemen ever stop running as far as you could see?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: No.

MR BRINK: They just carried on running, and you carried on firing?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: They continued running, shooting, we also were shooting and chasing them.

MR BRINK: And the three of them were chasing after them, running in the same direction, am I right?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: What I can be sure of is that I was running with comrade Nyembezi, that is what I am certain of.

MR BRINK: Presumably your other companion was following your direction, because the two policemen were moving away from you, further up ahead?

LUYANDA NTIKINCA: When we got out and the side of the road  on which we were running, that I am sure of.

MR BRINK: Why do you say then the policemen were shot at different directions, why do you say you cornered them and shot them, but at different directions, if I may quote you?