Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   I can only explain it in posing a question, by saying why would, for instance, a British soldier remain silent when he is faced by the enemy and captured by the enemy, and even during torture he remains silent and loyal to his country?

CHAIRPERSON: You also expected the backing of the police irrespective of the outcome of your trial, you said in paragraph 63.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You refused to disclose all the facts and the information for quite some time.  How many times during the consultations which I had with you before the trial, after the trial, did I urge you to make all the facts known to me so that I could give it to the trial or use

CHAIRPERSON: /it?   ---

CHAIRPERSON: it?

WITNESS:   There were many times.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that you have decided to make available the documentation and your information, is it correct that you have arranged through me to also speak about matters which are not relevant to your application here with the broader Commission and with their investigators?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that a meeting is about to be set up within the next week or so, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we just briefly then deal with when you started at the police ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 2) ... then?

WITNESS:   I was then 18.

CHAIRPERSON: On what date did you join?

WITNESS:   On the 31st of December 1975.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did you go to after that?  A police college?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the duration of your training?

WITNESS:   I was there for six months.

CHAIRPERSON: And after that what happened?

WITNESS:   Okay, during our training we were - it was when the Soweto riots broke out that we were then taken through to the Soweto riots on the back of Bedford trucks.

CHAIRPERSON: In paragraph 66 in your notes you've set out what you experienced as an 18-year-old when you went into Soweto.  Would you just place that on record please.

WITNESS:  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: "As a young white South African I was for the first time confronted with an uprising that left me shivering in my boots.  During this uprising I

CHAIRPERSON: /"experienced

CHAIRPERSON: "experienced the solidarity of the black masses like never before, and the brutality of the law enforcers to put down the uprising.  The hostility of the blacks towards us was real and constant."

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what was the position of the Riot Units in those days, in the 76/77/78?

WITNESS:   There was no permanent Riot Units.  Members would have to perform their normal policing duties, and then were - when required to go to the riots they would have to leave their work and go and do that.

CHAIRPERSON: In paragraph 68 you have an observation to make.

WITNESS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: "Just as many young black men from South Africa fled during the 1976 period, and who were eventually trained as ANC terrorists, as I and many others then saw it, so my life took on a parallel whereby I was trained in counter insurgency tactics and counter revolutionary measures to stop the eventual onslaught."

CHAIRPERSON: Let us continue with your career.  You were then transferred to Krugersdorp.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the violence, you say, continued on the Rand, or Gauteng, during '76 to '77, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were transferred in '77 to Natal, namely Pinetown.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What duties did you perform there?  In paragraph 70

CHAIRPERSON: /you've

CHAIRPERSON: you've set it out.

CHAIRPERSON: "I was placed on the Riot Unit.  We would have to conduct our normal policing duties, and I was attached to the Pinetown Police Station.  As well we would then have to deal with unrest situations as they arose."

CHAIRPERSON: And you spent hours in Land Rovers.

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.  We were divided into six sections with six white members.  Each section had a Land Rover with a sergeant, a driver in front, and four members at the back.  Many hours were spent cramped up in the back of these Land Rovers - winter, summer, rain, cold and sunshine.

CHAIRPERSON: And you in fact were trained and retrained to quell or limit the unrest situation.

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was in 1981 that your training then took one step further, and that was when you now received training in counter insurgency or COIN.  Where was that?  In paragraph 73 you set this out, on page 20 of Volume I.

WITNESS:   That was at Milierskop.

CHAIRPERSON: What is Milierskop?

WITNESS:   Milierskop is a counter insurgency training base for the South African Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Situated in Gauteng?

WITNESS:   Situated near Marble Hall - near Marble Hall.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have set out in the affidavit the training you received here, but is it correct that you saw many videos, you were brought into contact with what were called tamed terrorists, or askaris?  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were sent off to South West Africa, as it was

CHAIRPERSON: /then known,

CHAIRPERSON: then known, to fight against SWAPO in 1982.

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You returned and were sent back - this is what paragraph 78 shows - in 1983 to Ovamboland in South West Africa.

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When you came back from the border for the second time, in paragraph 79 you have set out what your duties then entailed when you came back here to South Africa.  What were those?

WITNESS:   Yes, after returning from the border I was once again put back on the Riot Unit and worked in all the townships, including Inanda, Lamontville, Chesterville, KwaMashu, Clermont.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say that you were put onto the Riot Unit, that you worked the townships, what would that entail?  What was that, just briefly?

WITNESS:   Ja, it required that we quell the unrest and the uprisings of that period.

CHAIRPERSON: Again the quelling and the limitation of the unrest situation.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, many incidents took place during this - the working of the townships or the quelling or the limitation of the violence or the unrest, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You have not mentioned all the incidents here, but it will be discussed, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there brutality?  Was there brutality in the quelling or the limitation of the unrest?

WITNESS:   Yes, there was.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there reference to this, the brutal approach, in

CHAIRPERSON: one of the lectures in the manual, annexure B?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there is.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what sort of videos were you shown at Milierskop?  What sort of videos, type of videos were you shown at Milierskop?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, before you do that, shouldn't you tell us where that reference is, reference to brutality in the lectures.  Is it in the documents, or was it oral?

MR DU TOIT: It is in the documents, and we will come back fully to the documents, Judge.

WITNESS:   Videos of the unrest situations, of necklacing of people that were taken by international video teams that were confiscated from them.  It included videos of victims of the unrest in Natal and other parts of the country.

MR DU TOIT: Also during this time, the mid-80s now, you make the point in the early 80s, in paragraph 85 - if you could just place that on record please.

WITNESS:   Yes.