Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

ADV GCABASHE: No, I will come to the robbery of the car in a few minutes.  The more material aspects that concern me, in terms of my understanding of your case, concern these two statements by Van Wyk and this other chap, about the facts and circumstances of the shootout, what happened before the shootout, the shootout itself and what happened just after the shootout.

THAMI MAHLALA: I am referring to the robbery of the car.  I was with Levi and that happened at Alrode, as I explained before.

ADV GCABASHE: Can we leave that, the robbery of the car just for a minute and talk about when you were arrested, the shootout and the time that you were arrested in Dawn Park.  That is what these statements refer to.  Are you with me?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I understand what is said in these statements.

ADV GCABASHE: And you are saying that what is said in the statements, is a lie, all of it is just a lie?  It is not true?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: You are saying that the people who drove up behind you in the Sierra, shot at you first?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And you thought that these people had come from the roadblock that you had avoided earlier on?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I thought they were coming from the roadblock because we were under a light, and I thought they were the police.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay.  Let's come back to your version.  The roadblock was somewhere near Vosloorus.  What was the distance between the point where the roadblock was and the point where you parked under the lamp in Dawn Park, just estimate that distance for us?

THAMI MAHLALA: It was a big distance, we were very far.  We were out of Vosloorus and because these are two distinct places, Vosloorus and Dawn Park, so we were far from Vosloorus.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, if I remember well, you were sitting at the back of the bakkie, is this correct?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Was this an open bakkie?

THAMI MAHLALA: It was an open bakkie.

ADV GCABASHE: And at what time of the night was this, there is mention of a light, so I am assuming night time, at what time did this happen roughly?

THAMI MAHLALA: Even if I can't remember the exact time, I will estimate and say it was about twenty five to six or six o'clock.  That is my estimation of the time.

ADV GCABASHE: While you were sitting at the back of the bakkie, did you notice a car following you from Vosloorus to Dawn Park?

THAMI MAHLALA: No.

ADV GCABASHE: But you were sitting with your back to the passengers inside, your back to the cabin, so you were able to observe the cars that were coming behind you?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I was able to see those cars coming towards us.

ADV GCABASHE: Why is it that you did not notice this car until it had parked behind you?

THAMI MAHLALA: As I stated that we only noticed the car when it had already parked behind us, and Vusi was outside, he said they were cocking their firearms and I took my firearm.  I didn't see it following us from behind.

ADV GCABASHE: But this is my question, if you were sitting in the back of the bakkie, and you had been sitting there all the way from Vosloorus to Dawn Park, why is it that you did not notice this car approach or park?  You only realised that it was there when Vusi mentioned that there was a car, and the guys were cocking their firearms at you.
	It just doesn't sound, I don't quite understand how this could have happened.  Now you are able to explain it to me, because you were there, just help me with this.

THAMI MAHLALA: I would say there is a steep, the area is steep, so you can only see the car when it is already finished ascending the steep, so you wouldn't be able to see it when it is on the other side of the steep.
	I would say from where I am sitting, to the door, you won't see a car if it is coming from the other side, because of the steep in between.

ADV GCABASHE: I am sorry, you have actually lost me now.  Was the car approaching from the back or the front?

THAMI MAHLALA: It was coming from behind.

ADV GCABASHE: Then just go over what exactly happened after Vusi said that these chaps are cocking their firearms at us.   Let me ask this question, were you armed?

THAMI MAHLALA: Vusi and Levi were armed and we also had the guns or the firearms that we went to collect.  Vusi shot back and he fell down.  After he fell down, I took the firearm from him and I started firing towards the private car.

ADV GCABASHE: So you were not armed until you took Vusi's firearm?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I wasn't armed.

ADV GCABASHE: And what firearm was that, Vusi's firearm?

THAMI MAHLALA: It was a shotgun.

ADV GCABASHE: Did Vusi die?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Molefi got out on the other side, and also started shooting?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, that is correct, he was shooting at them with an AK47 and the other man, Jamani, was shooting them with an AK47.

ADV GCABASHE: Where did Molefi get his AK47 from?

THAMI MAHLALA: It was from the firearms that we were supposed to collect from Duduza.

ADV GCABASHE: And Jamani, also from that batch of firearms?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Jamani was shot at well?

THAMI MAHLALA: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he manage to escape?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.  He ran to a place which - Levi and Jamani ran away.

ADV GCABASHE: Molefi and Jamani ran away?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: You were the only one who was arrested for this incident?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: When was Molefi arrested for this particular incident?

THAMI MAHLALA: I don't know because I was in jail at that time.

ADV GCABASHE: Let me just go back to the robbery, armed robbery, taking the car at Alrode.  You gave us the date of the 29th of October 1992, is that correct?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, it is correct, but I am not sure, perfectly sure whether it was the 30th or the 29th.

ADV GCABASHE: On page 21, if this is the motor vehicle, and I am assuming this is the one, the date they give here is the 28th of August, no, it is not the same vehicle.  We are talking about October in your instance, this isn't the same vehicle?  It is not the same one.

THAMI MAHLALA: No.

ADV GCABASHE: When you escaped from lawful custody, this is the last aspect, did you escape with Molefi or were you on your own?

THAMI MAHLALA: I was alone.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mahlala, I am referring to your application, I see on page 74, you were asked to state the political objective sought to be achieved and you didn't answer that question.  Could you please explain to us what did you intend to achieve by the actions you undertook?

THAMI MAHLALA: My main aim was to help the community, because there was intense fighting in the community and there wasn't any other way to protect the community.  The only way was to participate in fighting or defending the community.

MR SIBANYONI: But specifically by shooting at the occupants of the car, what political objective did you intend to achieve?

THAMI MAHLALA: As the Commander have already given an instruction that if we are disturbed on our way, we could also be killed, we have to fight to protect these firearms and also to protect our lives.  That is why I had to shoot at them, to protect the community property so that I will be able to take them to the township where they were to be used.
	Unfortunately I wasn't able to do that.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.  That is the only aspect I wanted to be clarified.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mahlala, how long was your trial?  How long did it last?

THAMI MAHLALA: I can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a couple of days or did you plead guilty or what is the position?

THAMI MAHLALA: I pleaded not guilty.  I denied that I was guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: The people who testified in that trial for the State, did they stick to their versions?

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?