Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

MR RICHARD: If one then goes to paragraph 4.3.1, the heading of that is 1985 - The Kabwe Conference and Controversies Surrounding the Issues of Soft Targets.  In my bundle it is page 71.

MR BERGER: It is page 65.

MR RICHARD: "Targets were identified as follows ...", have you got that paragraph?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, I have.  Page 66.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 66?

MR RICHARD: On the basis of what you had just said, which is set out above the paragraph that I am referring to and other factual matters relevant to the time, is it correct that targets at the Kabwe Conference, were to be identified as stated there and the paragraph reads
"... targets were identified as follows: the racist army, police, death squads, agents and stooges in our midst and the call to take the war to the white areas, is defined as follows - strengthening  our workers' organisations and engaging in united action in the factories, mines, farms and suburbs."
	Then the second point -
"... spreading the consumer boycott to all areas of the country."
	The third point -
"... organised and well planned demonstrations in the white suburbs and central business districts."
	Third -
"... forming underground units and combat groups in our places of work and taking such action as sabotage in the factories, mines, farms and suburbs and disrupt the enemies' oil, energy, transport, communications and other vital systems."
	Next -
"... systematic attacks against the army and police and the so-called area defence units in the white areas.  Well planned raids on the armouries and dumps of the army, police, farmers, and so on to secure arms for our units."
	Now, when we talk about the Kabwe Conference, isn't that in essence what the direction and policy that came out of it?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR BERGER: Chair, if one reads the statement in context, is it not that this was following on from an official pamphlet, that is referred to a paragraph a little higher?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think the question that he put, is not unfair.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I said yes.

MR RICHARD: It is in the context of what I have just read out, that a well trained operative would operate?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: : Yes.  And that that attack would fall into the category of systematic attacks against the army and police and the so-called area defence units of the white areas.

MR RICHARD: I then turn and would ask your comments, on Appendix 4.   There is a list of MK operations ...

CHAIRPERSON: It is on page 72, Appendix 4.

MR RICHARD: Now, if I examine that list in detail, I see that every item starts with the word "economic" SAP buildings, "economic" skirmish with SAP.  Why were those classifications made to the events listed therein?

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to get clarification, are you saying that "economic", they are not all prefaced by them being economic.

MR RICHARD: Sure, what I say is each item and I will start at the top of one ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... a broad category, if one starts at the beginning 30 November 1976, skirmish with SAP and then it describes very briefly the incident and then the next one on the 8th of January of that year, economic.  So each one's got a different category.  Is your question why have they ...

MR RICHARD: Why were they classified in the first place?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: It was basically to identify the nature or type of operation that had been carried out.  In this case, if one turns to page 87, you see where it refers to the Why Not and MAGOOS, it talks of SADF personnel.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, your page reference is?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 87 he referred to, that is the one which contains the ...

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: If you go to the date.

CHAIRPERSON: The incidents during June 1986, 14 June 1986.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: 14 June 1986.

MR RICHARD: Now, is it not correct if I look at an item such as the 8th of January 1982, Mobil fuel storage depot, (indistinct) blast, the next one, December of that year, personnel activity.  Those classifications in effect make a statement?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Sorry Chairperson, I don't find the 8th of ...

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just mention those dates again please Mr Richard, I missed them and I haven't got the ...

MR RICHARD: Let me rephrase the question.   As we go through each and every one of these classifications in this part of the schedule, the Annexure.  is it not correct that the statement, economic, SADF building, skirmish with SAP, in effect classifies that action as a legitimate target?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: It classifies it.

MR RICHARD: As a legitimate target?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I don't know how you seek from going through these lists, you know whether it is legitimate, illegitimate or what.  It is listed as an MK operation.

MR RICHARD: My proposition is straight forward and simple, I read out a fairly lengthy paragraph from the submission where it speaks of what was resolved at the Kabwe Conference and the criteria as to how operatives should carry on their activities.  I then go to the Annexure and I say examine the classifications item by item on that Annexure.   I then make the proposition, the classifications item by item read with the Kabwe summary that I have read out, mean to me as an ordinary reader, that the author of this document intended me to assume that this list is a list of legitimate activities?  Is that correct or not correct?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: It is correct?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, I then proceed to Appendix 5 and now that interestingly enough is entitled "Armed Actions for Which Target Category And Or Responsibility Is Uncertain".  There is no classification in the manner that we have outlined in Appendix 4, correct?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, I will start listing them as they start on the 25th of November 1977.   Bomb explodes at Carlton Centre, Johannesburg, 14 injured.  Then the next one, bomb explodes on Pretoria bound train.  The lower down the page, three limpet mines explode in department stores in Durban causing limited damage, but no injuries.   Bomb explodes at night club at Umlazi Hotel, 30 children injured.  Next item, bomb explodes in OK Bazaars, no injuries, and so it goes on.  Now, it would appear that this is the list in which the attacks would appear to be persons other than Security Force personnel, is that not an obvious inference?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No, it is not.  If it - it says at the outset "please note, this list includes all incidents we have found in press reports and from SAIRR annual surveys, which cannot be classified according to target categories used in the Appendix headed "List of Known MK Operations", in addition we are uncertain as to whether these attacks were carried out by bona fide MK members, some appear to be the result of operational difficulties, others very probably false flag operations.  Here we may also say the bombing of COSATU House which was previously ascribed to Shirley Gunn, when in fact it was carried out by the murderous Forces of the apartheid State, some of those were also, could also have been listed at various times.

MR RICHARD: And then if we go to May 1986, I refer to two items there.  ?May 1986, SAP say a 50 kilogram bomb was found under a car in downtown Durban.  That corresponds from my analysis to the Pine Parkade bomb that was found and for which Mr McBride - is there any reason why this was not put in the other list, Appendix 4?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, if operatives didn't always give the information or at the time when this was written, if the information was not known and if it was still being investigated by the ANC, it was then put into this list.  There were times when certain things were pointed out to the drafters, but because of time pressure, etc, it stayed in this list, and they did not always move it.