Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

MR MPONGOSI: No, I did not report to Sithole this incident.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole was your induna, is that correct?  Sorry, may I proceed?  Mr Sithole was your induna, is that right?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You did meet him later in the day.

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you did not consider it appropriate to inform him about that?

MR MPONGOSI: Something is disturbing me here.  I had said at first these people met with me when I was Sithole to report about my assault.  And these people approached from the soccer field and they came to me.  As they were approaching, very close to me, Zwane shot.  And I had also commanded them not to come closer to us because we wanted to establish something here.  I never thereafter went back to Sithole because those people when they fled they fled towards Sithole's, and we went then the opposite direction.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm sorry Mr Mpongosi but you are just repeating your evidence and what we are saying is that we are aware you were at Sithole's place this incident happened, I asked you if you had met Mr Sithole con, subsequently on that  day and I think you said yes you did meet him.  Is that correct?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now if you did meet him, you did not report you did not report what had happened at the sports is that what you're saying now?

MR MPONGOSI: No, I did not report to him what happened at the soccer field.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Did you report to anybody what had happened at the soccer field, that is any of the other applicants, or Mr Magwaza, or anybody else in the IFP?

MR MPONGOSI: I would like to explain this, Magwaza, at that point in time, before he came back from town, I would have reported to him, and ended up reporting to Sithole.  I did not get hold of Sithole until afterwards when he joined us down there after seeing this eruption of a fight.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's clear that he didn't report it to anybody else.  Did you report it to anybody else?  It's a simple question, Mr Mpongosi, could you please just listen to the question and answer it.  Did you report that incident with the late Mr Dastile in the middle of the soccer field with anybody else?

MR MPONGOSI: I did not report the soccer field incident.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I have put it to the previous applicant about what the Judge in the Court had found about the improbability of ANC members having firearms.  Did you hear that?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes I heard you mentioning that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I want to put it to you that none of the ANC members who were there at the incident on that day had any firearms.

MR MPONGOSI: May I be given this opportunity to say this?  I was there, I was present, I did not see any firearms but I heard the gunshots from the ANC side, and the pelting of stones as well.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm sorry I don't want to repetitive but I just want to also put to you that if they had fired several shots and you go on to say that it were at a stage you were told they had run out of ammunition, none of the IFP members were injured or killed as a result of a bullet wound.  Is that right?

MR MPONGOSI: I did say that.  In actual fact, the ANC group when they were shooting we hid behind the shacks and they continued shooting.  We were hiding behind the shacks, hiding from this attack of stones and shooting.  I know, and I am also reiterating the fact that they started shooting.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That also Mr Mpongosi is the first time that we've heard that you took refuge behind shacks, waited until they ran out of ammunition and then started shooting because we were told her at this particular hearing that when the shooting emanated from the ANC group you fell to the ground then got up and shot and there was no question of taking cover behind shacks that's the first time we've heard that, is that correct?

MR LAX: Mr Cachalia it's not one hundred percent strictly correct.  There was a witness, I think it was Mr Sithole, who spoke about taking cover.  He didn't specify what sort of cover it was, but he did say "...we took cover."  But only one of them said that so far, so it's not entirely correct, but the gist is alright.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You've heard what, sorry, you've heard what the Committee Member Mr Lax has said in this matter.  Do you wish to respond to that, to the suggestion that I put to you, having regard to what Mr Lax has just said?

MR MPONGOSI: I say what, we did exactly that.  We did not throw ourselves on the ground or ...(indistinct) like that. They also meant, I think, to say they took refuge and his up behind the shacks or the houses.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You've told us you bought a gun some time before.  Please just to confirm to me how long before this day of the 12th of February did you buy the gun?  Was it days, weeks, months?  I'm sorry I wasn't very clear as to what you said.

MR MPONGOSI: I think it was in December.  It was around November because by the time it was December I already had the firearm.  The previous year.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And, well you have told us that at that stage already you were aware that there was going to be fighting and you were preparing yourself.  Is that right?  That is what you said, isn't it so?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What had happened to give you an indication that there was going to be fighting?

MR MPONGOSI: I said for me to want a firearm, it was apparent, being apparent that IFP and ANC will be involved in some kind of war or fight.  We had to be vigilant, and very alert, so that whatever happens, or whatever violence or fight that may break we will be aware and alert.

MR LAX: Yes the question was ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: He went further.  The applicant went further than that.  He mentioned that there was violence throughout the country between the ANC and the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Which I think we can accept as being the position.  Not throughout the country, but widespread violence.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Chairperson I think in fairness to him it is appropriate that this difference is brought to our attention.  I am saying what had happened in Zevenfontein to make you believe there was going to be fighting between the IFP and the ANC?

MR MPONGOSI: At Zevenfontein we were together with the ANC and that means we knew each other very well, that means the two groups.  Each time there would be problems we will solve those problems in a very amicable way, but now things began to change.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Please tell me how did they change, sir.  That's the question.  How did they change in by end of November beginning of December when you had acquired this weapon?

MR MPONGOSI: Even before I acquired this firearm we would be having differences and we will solve those differences.

MR LAX: No the question Mr Mpongosi is, in the light of the fact that you solved your differences in that way, what had changed in Zevenfontein, to make you want to get a firearm?  Do you understand the question?  We know you had an amicable arrangement up until that point in time, so what was different?  Why was it necessary to get a firearm?  That's the question you've been asked.

MR MPONGOSI: It is because I knew very well that I was an IFP member and the way the fight had intensified in this country between IFP and ANC it was necessary for me to acquire a firearm to have in my possession for the purpose of defence.

AZHAR CACHALIA: May I put it to you lastly Mr Mpongosi, that nothing happened in Zevenfontein to give you the impression that there was going to be any fights breaking out or any war erupting between IFP and ANC members because you had always sorted it out peacefully previously.

MR MPONGOSI: The solving of problems would be leading to a fight.  One can tell that something is brewing in this whole thing.  One could tell the result or the consequence still of this problems being solved, that they will lead to a fight.