Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-01

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was he exactly killed, at his house or as you have tried to explain to us, difficult as we have found your explanation, I find it very difficult to comprehend your explanation on what really sparked the violence but you've tried to explain that there were two camps, one belonging to the ANC and the other one belonging to the IFP.  Now in relation to how you have described those two camps, where was your grandfather killed?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: As I've already explained that there's a small river and this side there's an IFP and other side it's ANC and this violence actually took place in the middle, that's where he was killed.

MS THABETE: How old was your grandfather?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I'm not sure, I think he was somewhere in his '70's.

MS THABETE: And you're saying he was also involved in the fighting?  Is that the picture you've given this Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he - yes.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes he was involved in the fighting.

MS THABETE: Did Ben Nkosi the deceased belong to any political organisation?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: As I've explained ...[intervention]

MS THABETE: Which political organisation?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: ANC organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, may I interfere, I'm sorry to be doing this but with your indulgence may I interpose?  I just don't want to loose what you initially started with regard to the fighting that occurred as alleged by Mr Ndlangamandla between ANC and IFP supporters on that day.  When exactly did this take place?  You have given us an indication that the funeral was on the 30th November.  When did the fight break out between the ANC and IFP supporters?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: If you could please repeat that question?

CHAIRPERSON: When did the fighting between the ANC and IFP supporters as alleged by you take place?  We have the date of the funeral as being on the 30th November, I'm trying to assist you.  In relation to the funeral, when did the fighting take place?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Before the funeral date?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, how long before, a day or two or a week, a few weeks before the 30th November?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: A few days before the 30th November.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be two to three days?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how many people participated in this alleged violence between the two groups?  How many people would you say were in your group as IFP members?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I wouldn't estimate but we were many.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you for our assistance try and stretch your mind and give us an approximation of whether we're talking of a group of more than twenty, of more than a hundred?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Above twenty.

CHAIRPERSON: And from the ANC, how big was that group?  Are we also talking of a group which was less than fifty or over fifty?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I think they were somewhere above ten.

CHAIRPERSON: And from your group how were you armed?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Traditional weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes just tell us how you were armed, what traditional weapons did you have?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: What I can remember we had a spear and an axe.

UNKNOWN: Sorry just repeat the translation please?

INTERPRETER: It's a spear and an axe.

UNKNOWN: I still don't quite follow Mr Ndlangamandla, how many people had spears and how many people had axes or was there one spear and one axe per group?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I can't remember that because it was busy.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say an axe?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: "Imbaso's" an axe, it's iron with a flat.

CHAIRPERSON: A panga?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We were trying to explain that because the interpreter couldn't pick up the name.  As you can remember people who were ANC supporters, what arms or weapons did they have?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I can't remember that very well, what I've seen was the things which were nearer me.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: A panga, an axe and a spear.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean the ANC?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: From the ANC group I couldn't see as to what they were armed with.

CHAIRPERSON: You've explained in your evidence that you fought, as you can remember how long did this fighting go on?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: It didn't take long, I think it was just half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: What was happening in this 30 minutes?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: We were fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: If you say you were just fighting we need you to explain to us as you've already mentioned that there were two groups or two organisations.  You had a panga and what did you do with it, who did you see on the side of the ANC even though you cannot remember everything but we need you to tell us as to what you've done yourself?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: What made me not see everything clearly it's because my grandfather was shot and then we surrendered and we realised that my grandfather was shot.  I didn't see very well.

CHAIRPERSON: But prior to your grandfather being shot this fighting had been going on for some time?  What I want to establish is the nature of the fight, what actually happened before your grandfather was killed?  You've already stated that the fighting had been going on for 30 minutes so you obviously dispersed immediately after your grandfather had been shot, that's how I understand your evidence.  I'm correct is it not so?  What caused you to disperse was after your grandfather was shot?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes you're correct it was before we came head on head.  When we came closer my grandfather was shot and then we surrendered then and there.  Now I cannot explain as to who was killing what.

CHAIRPERSON: You know what, you've already just given us evidence that this fighting lasted for 30 minutes, that's your evidence a few seconds ago, not too long ago?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you've just stated that the reason why you dispersed was immediately after your grandfather was shot at, that's when you then went into disarray and then you gave up the fight immediately after your grandfather was shot?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes that is correct, we gave up but the wish was still there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I understand that, I have no problem with that.  What I do have a problem with is 30 minutes is a long time, what actually happened within the 30 minutes.  You say the fighting took place and it lasted for 30 minutes.  I want to know what was the nature of that fighting?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: My grandfather was shot at the beginning of the fight and after that there was no contact between us and the ANC, we were just looking at each other but we were now far not nearer to each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying when you say when I asked you a question as to how long the fighting lasted and you responded that it lasted for approximately 30 minutes, you were not talking about the fight?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I was talking about the very same fight.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in relation to this 30 minutes, when did your grandfather get shot?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Maybe I'm not explaining this very well, I'm not good in estimating time because when this happened there was no time to look as to how did it occur.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you therefore saying that before you could even as conflicting parties meet to fight, your grandfather was shot at?  He was shot before you could
confront each other as conflicting parties?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So no fighting had ensued when your grandfather was shot at?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.