Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

MR SNYMAN: Paragraph 1.1
The achievement of these purposes or goals would have consisted of paragraph 1.1.1.  The protection and maintenance of the National Party Government and the legal institutions which had been instituted by that Government."
Paragraph 1.1.2 -
"The protection of the integrity of the previous Government in order to ensure that the community does not lose trust in the governing party, the National Party, as a consequence of acts of terror and propaganda by communistically- inclined organisations."
Paragraph 1.1.3 -
"South Africa, and to protect South Africa and its Western capitalistic community against a violent take-over by communistically inclined so-called liberation movements whose intentions were to make the country ungovernable."
Paragraph 1.2 -
"By means of these above-mentioned purposes the continued existence or survival of a normal Western democracy as I know it, would be maintained and ensured."
Paragraph 2.2.1 -
"The detention, interrogations and accompanying confrontations were necessary in order to counter the total onslaught against the Government of the day."
Paragraph 2.2 -
"Information had to be obtained at all costs in order to counter the revolutionary struggle by means of the arrest of persons, the detention of persons and the criminal prosecution of persons."
Paragraph 2.3 -
"Obtaining new information was necessary in order to take pro-active measures with which to effectively contain the efforts of the liberation organisations."
Paragraph 2.4 -
"Steven Bantu Biko was personally involved in, and in addition obtained valuable information which would have enabled the security branch to neutralise effectively the Black Consciousness Movement and the Black People's Convention, to contain them and in this way to stabilise the situation of unrest."

MR BOOYENS: Excuse me.  There would seem to be a typing error.  It has to be BCM and not BMC in this particular paragraph.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.	With regard to paragraph 2.5 -"False statements were made to prevent that the Government, the National Party and the security branch would be embarrassed;  should the true facts be made known."

MR BOOYENS: Thank you very much.  You have indicated your political purposes and intentions as per your amnesty application.  Is this correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You would maintain that these still are in fact the reasons for your actions?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: On page 9 of the application, with regard to the motivation why you would consider this action to be linked to a political purpose.  Could you read your answer to this?

MR SNYMAN: "For reference purposes, see paragraph
9(a)(iv) above and then Steven Bantu Biko.  The assault occurred during interrogation.  Mr Biko, during his detention at the central prison in Pretoria, died in consequence of injuries received during the interrogation of 6 September 1977.  The confrontation was a direct result of our efforts to obtain information from Mr Biko who had been a prominent anti-government activist."

MR BOOYENS: Briefly then through the remaining questions;  you claim not to have in any way financially or otherwise gained from this?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: The interrogation occurred under the instructions of Col Goosen, who was your commanding officer.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You bear no knowledge of any actions, criminally or civilly?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: A few remaining aspects which I want to deal with briefly. You have already said to the Commission that you supported the apartheid Government, the National Party of that day.  Currently, since 1994, there is a different Government in this country.  What is your attitude, your feeling with the wisdom of subsequent experience;  what is your attitude towards your support of the apartheid Government and its actions?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the transformation and the transfer to a democratic Government I feared, and my fear was that should this change occur, utter anarchy would reign.  The opposite did however occur and thus far all of these events have been peaceful.

MR BOOYENS: We've already touched on the fact that you had violated the human rights of the deceased.  Today, 20 years after the event;  what would your personal feelings be?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it is my conviction in the depth of my heart that our actions were wrong.  I can say in honesty that I feel remorse over these events.

MR BOOYENS: Would there be anything else that you want to bring to the attention of the Commission at this stage?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I want to ask that I be forgiven for my part.  That is all, it would appear to be all.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the evidence I intend leading.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Erasmus, are there questions you wish to put to the applicant?

MR ERASMUS: There are a few questions I would like to ask, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Snyman, I want to refer to Exhibit C.  Exhibit C would be the translated version of the entry into the occurrences book.  Do you have that in front of you?

MR SNYMAN: That is the case, your Honour.

MR ERASMUS: The first sentence thereof reads as follows
"Maj Snyman reports that on the 7th September 1977 at about 7 o'clock he, Capt Siebert and Warrant-Officer Beneke questioned detainee Biko at the security branch offices in the Sanlam building."
I want to state it to you that Warrant-Officer Beneke was not part of the interrogation.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MR ERASMUS: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ERASMUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, any questions?

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Please turn to page 2 of your application.  The last two paragraphs where you say that you acted in good faith as a member of the South African Police.  Is perjury a police action which is performed in good faith?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: What is the answer?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you want me to repeat the question?

MR SNYMAN: Please do.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you want me to repeat the question?

MR SNYMAN: Please do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, please repeat it.

GEORGE BIZOS: You say that throughout your long career in the police you always acted in good faith.  Is perjury a police action carried out in good faith?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is defeating the ends of justice as you and your colleagues did during a number of weeks in November 1977, in good faith?

MR SNYMAN: It occurred as a consequence of the situation and also as I have said in order to maintain the Government of the day.

GEORGE BIZOS: Your and your colleagues' perjury for the purposes of defeating the ends of justice, a bona fide police action?

MR SNYMAN: At that stage I would say, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know what good faith means?  (Laughter).

MR SNYMAN: Yes, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: What does good faith mean?

MR SNYMAN: That I believe in it.

GEORGE BIZOS: That if you believe that you can commit perjury and that you can defeat the ends of justice, you are acting in good faith?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you still believe that?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: What made you change your mind?

MR SNYMAN: With the change to a democracy as I have mentioned ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Democracy dawned in our country on the 28th of April 1994?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you wait until practically the twelfth hour in order to make an application for amnesty?

MR SNYMAN: Because, at that time we believed that what we did was done in the interest of the State and the National Party.