Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May I apologise for starting late again this morning, Mr Chairman.  We are ready to proceed.  Mrs Nhlayisi is prepared, and we are ready to start with the first applicant.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, I see there is no headphones for the public.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, they are in the process, I think they received them late, and they are in the process of handing them out just now, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mrs Nhlayisi?

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The first application for the day is application AM7152/97, appearing on page 219.  The applicant's name is Mbongeni Otto Tshabangu.
	The applicant is applying for amnesty for murder and possession of unlicensed firearm and ammunition.  His ID number is 711112 5362 08 5.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, may I be so rude as to interrupt.  There is also further particulars which appears in the supplement bundle 2, it is the white bundle, on page 90 to 91.  On page 90 is the further particulars and on page 91 is actually the request for the particulars, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu which language would you like you use?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Zulu.

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: (sworn states)

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Tshabangu, you were a member of the SDU's in Mandela Section in Tokoza, is that correct?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: When did you join the SDU's?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I joined in 1991.

MRS NHLAYISI: Who was your Commander at that stage?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: My Commander was Bonga Nkosi.

MRS NHLAYISI: You have brought an application for amnesty relating to the death of one Khumalo.  Can you tell this Committee what was your involvement in this incident?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: The role I played in this incident, killing of the deceased, I arrived at that house, number A33 in Tokoza.  The victim was already captured, he was sitting in the dining room.

CHAIRPERSON: When would this have happened?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: It happened in September 1993.

MRS NHLAYISI: You said you arrived at house number A33 Mazibuko Street in Tokoza, and you found the victim there.  What was happening with the victim at that stage?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: He was being questioned and he was being assaulted at the same time, because of his involvement in Mandela Section, after it was discovered he had a card written Zulu Police and his surname was written as Khumalo and he was related to Khumalo, Bishop Khumalo who was a leader of the Khumalo gang in Tokoza.

MRS NHLAYISI: On your arrival at this house, who were the people who were present there, busy questioning the victim, can you remember the names?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: There were a lot of people.  I can remember the following, the late Jeremiah Masilela, Boy Gamede, Charlie, Stokfela, these are the only people I can remember.  I cannot remember the others.

MRS NHLAYISI: On your arrival, what did you do personally to the victim, if there is anything that you did?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: When I arrived there, I came closer to him.  I asked questions and I wanted to know why was he there, being Khumalo and as he was also related to Bishop Khumalo and he was also coming from kwaZulu Natal and he was also a member of the Zulu Police.
	He said he went there to check the place.  He had some resistance, I had a stick in my right hand and I used my right hand to hit him on the head.  I cannot remember how many times did I hit him.  After that, I was wearing training shoes and I kicked him on his ribs on the left hand side.

MRS NHLAYISI: Did you question him?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, I did question him, I wanted to know, as he was not the resident of Tokoza, why was he there in Tokoza at the time.  He said to me, he first said that was none of my business because I did not even know him.
	I hit him and I kicked him on his ribs.  I was not alone, the others were also assaulting him.   He told us that he was there, to surveil the place, because he was not staying there.  He wanted to check the conditions and the living area, he wanted to know how dangerous was the place.  He was sent down there to surveil the living area.

MRS NHLAYISI: Did he tell you who had sent him to surveil the area and what was the purpose of him coming there to surveil the area?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: He did not say who sent him there, he told us he was from Khumalo Street, next to the hostel, next to Madala hostel in Tokoza and he told us that he was from the Khumalo family and he emphasised the fact that he was related to Bhekinsele Khumalo.

MRS NHLAYISI: What was the impression that you got from his answers that he was related to Khumalo and he was from Madala hostel, what did you conclude then?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: First of all, Bishop Bhekinsele Khumalo and his Khumalo gang were the people who were fighting the community of Tokoza, and the Khumalo gang was involved in violence and during that violence, Bishop Khumalo was staying with the IFP members and they were harassing the community.
	It occurred to me that as he was related to Khumalo and he was coming from that area of IFP, I later realised that we are in danger.  We might be involved in danger, or we might even die because of him and the situation.

MRS NHLAYISI: So for that reason, then it was decided that he fell in the enemy camp, is that correct?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: What happened to him after you had assaulted him, do you know?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I left the house, he was still alive in the house although he was already injured.  I later heard from the late Sicelo, Welcome Qoka, he told me that after a few minutes, he shot him, he shot the victim.  The same person that I participated in assaulting and questioning.

MRS NHLAYISI: So at the time when he was killed, you were no longer there?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: No, I was not there.  I was at home.

MRS NHLAYISI: Did you fully associate yourself with what happened after you had left?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, I do.  I associate myself with the action, I was a member of the SDU in Tokoza and if I would be arrested, I would be arrested as a member of the SDU and I was not against the actions.  I was not against the SDU's fighting the IFP members.

MRS NHLAYISI: So, what you are saying is that although you didn't physically carry out the killing of this particular person, but you were in full agreement with what happened to him?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, that is correct, to such an extent that in the meetings, the SDU meetings that were there, the only thing that was discussed, amongst the things that were discussed was the fact that if we happened to get a person from IFP, that particular person should be killed, therefore I agree with the statement.

MRS NHLAYISI: And you have earlier indicated that you did assault him by hitting him with a stick and kicking him.  Can you be in a position to say today whether your contribution didn't cause his death in any way?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I cannot be so sure, but I agree because I did assault him.  I only contributed by assaulting him and then he was later killed.

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Tshabangu, you have also applied for possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition.  You have also submitted a supplementary affidavit to your main application, where you state that at some stage, you participated in patrolling the streets of Tokoza and you carried an AK rifle with you during those patrols.  Is that correct?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, that is correct.  I was in possession of an AK47 and I was also patrolling and wanted to make sure that the living area was safe enough.

MRS NHLAYISI: Who issued you with an AK47?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I got it from the Commander of our Section, Mr Bonga Nkosi.