Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you, chairperson.   Mr Sambo, I would like you to clarify a few matters.   You mentioned a security guard at the gate who last saw your brother, who has been kidnapped, according to you.   Who was this security guard?    He told you that he had seen your brother at the border, at the gate.   You gave evidence saying, let me just repeat, you said that your brother was kidnapped, Sweetie, and that the last person who saw him was the security guard at the gate, is that correct, do you remember that?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, I do remember.

ADV BOSMAN: Who was this security guard, do you know his name?

VOICE SAMBO: I've forgotten his name, but he's an old man who is staying in Nance location, but he was working there at Makadama base.

ADV BOSMAN: Right.   Thank you.   Then, I did not quite get this clear in my notes, you referred to your meeting with the late Chris Hani, and you said something about you wanting to join Holomisa, and this was in 1991.   Can you perhaps just expand on that, I'm rather confused?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, I can.   In 1991, I was harassed by police, there were MK soldiers who were taken for training, they were taken to Holomisa's place, probably in Eastern Cape, therefore I thought if I talked to Chris Hani and go to Holomisa for training, it was going to be better.

CHAIRPERSON: But your evidence suggested that you were getting disgruntled and frustrated with the ANC, to a point of wanting to join somebody different from the ANC, hence Ms Bosman's question about the context in which that evidence was given, because Holomisa did not have his own organisation then?

VOICE SAMBO: I would explain this.   As underground soldiers, we will meet Holomisa, we know that most MK members will go to Holomisa, Chris Hani as well used to go to Holomisa.   This happened.   Not that I wanted to leave ANC, this didn't happen, I never wanted to leave ANC.

ADV BOSMAN: We will leave that at that, thank you, Mr Sambo.   Yes, you also mentioned that you'd asked your wife to inform the ANC about the incident, and then as far as my notes show, you never told us what happened.   Did the ANC ever respond?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, she reported to the ANC officers, and they came to hospital and I gave them the details as to what happened at home.

ADV BOSMAN: When did they come?

VOICE SAMBO: In the morning, in Robbs Hospital, this is when I was transferred to Nelspruit Hospital.   Police took me from Shongwe Hospital and I was admitted in Nelspruit Hospital, which is Robbs Ferreira Hospital.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.   Perhaps this is not quite a fair question, but let's see, do you have any idea why Mr O'Farrell would say that he had shot you, why would he not have said, "Well Van der Spuy shot him and I was attacked", why would he say he shot you?

VOICE SAMBO: No, I wouldn't know.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Madam Chair, that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Bosman.   Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Sambo?

MR LAX: Thanks, Madam Chair.   You remember that during your evidence in chief you were being asked - you said when you arrived there at where your BMW was, you realised that he'd opened your property.   You were then asked whether he identified himself, this is Van der Spuy, "Did he say he's from the police?", and you said, no they didn't, do you remember that?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes I do.

MR LAX: You were then asked, "Who did you think these people were?", and your answer was, "In my mind, I thought they were SB a little bit", this is how it was translated, "but I thought they were from the filling station".   At that point you said you were a little bit suspicious, in other words, that they might SB's, but because you saw the logo on the side of their vehicle, you thought they were from the filling station.   Do you remember saying that in your evidence in chief?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: Later on when you were questioned by Ms Thabete, you said that the only time you thought they were policemen was when they pulled out their guns, you denied thinking that they might be SB's earlier.   Can you explain this to us?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: The question I'm asking is, why did you deny that you had thought they were policemen earlier, and that the only time you thought they were policemen was when they pulled out their firearms?

CHAIRPERSON: I think, in fairness to you, Mr Sambo, you didn't deny that they were policemen, you just did not know they were policemen because of the Shell emblem initially when you saw them, but then Mr Lax would want to know what made you think at a later stage that they were policemen?

MR LAX: Do you understand what you're being asked?

VOICE SAMBO: If you can please repeat that?

MR LAX: The question I'm asking you is that in your evidence under cross-examination you said that the only time you realised they were policemen was when they pulled out their guns.   Do you remember saying that?

VOICE SAMBO: Not by seeing their gun, but I actually confirmed when he pull out the gun and shot at me, that's when I confirmed that they were police.   I didn't confirm this before this incident of shooting, but when... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Listen to the question, Mr Sambo, please.  Repeat your question, Mr Lax, and just respond very very shortly to a simple question.

MR LAX: The question was, do you confirm that you said under cross-examination that you only realised they were policemen when they pulled out their guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes or no?

MR LAX: Yes or no, straightforward?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes.

MR LAX: The question I'm then asking is that earlier in your evidence you had said you actually suspected they might be policemen, but you saw the logo and you thought well they're probably from the garage, but you were already suspicious at that moment.   Were you or were you not suspicious?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, I was suspicious.

MR LAX: What were you suspicious of?

VOICE SAMBO: I was suspicious that first they were from garage.   What made me realise that they were police is that when they arrived there, there was a difference, I could tell that people from a garage couldn't do like they did.

MR LAX: What do you mean by "do what they did"?

VOICE SAMBO: I am certain that people from a garage will never go, or won't go to somebody's place and just open somebody's car, I don't remember any incident of that nature from the people, from garage people.

MR LAX: Where were their firearms?

VOICE SAMBO: From his waist.

MR LAX: And you saw that?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes.

MR LAX: Do ordinary people just walk around with firearms at their waist?

VOICE SAMBO: It does happen sometimes.

MR LAX: Do normal garage people walk around with firearms at their waist?

VOICE SAMBO: Whites will do that.

MR LAX: So seeing the firearms didn't make you think these might be policemen?

VOICE SAMBO: I did think that they were police, as I mentioned that I was suspicious, it occurred in my mind that they may be police.

MR LAX: Mr Sambo, isn't it very likely that seeing these firearms on their hips gave you a strong feeling that they were probably policemen?

VOICE SAMBO: I only saw Mr Van der Spuy's gun when I was closer to him.

MR LAX: Yes, and they were behaving like policemen, because they were searching your vehicle, isn't that correct?

VOICE SAMBO: No, they came in the morning to search for my cars.

MR LAX: No, they weren't searching for your cars, they were searching for firearms in the morning, that's your testimony.

VOICE SAMBO: They searched the cars as well for the firearms.

MR LAX: The point is, these were policemen searching the car to make sure whether it was stolen or not.

VOICE SAMBO: From what I've heard, or from the evidence that I've heard is that Sergeant Ndbane came to my place and searched those cars, and he told them that those cars were not stolen.

MR LAX: Did that happen on the same day?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes.