Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Senator Radue.  I am quite sure that some of my colleagues would want to ask some questions in clarification of the submissions that were made.  Advocate Sandi?
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ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Perhaps the most suitable person to answer the questions I will be asking is Mr Meyer.  Mr Meyer did you say you may have to make a correction to what Mr Pik Botha said to this Commission?

MR MEYER: No, I don't think I said that Honourable Commissioner.  I indicated that Mr Pik Botha spoke from what I read, according to his submission, he spoke mainly regarding or on behalf of the position that he held at that stage as Minister of Foreign Affairs, and obviously he was  called upon by the Commission to come and speak in that capacity, namely his own dealings with the situation in that capacity since the Ciskei was then regarded as an independent state, and of course he had to take responsibility of, by the South African Government, in that capacity.  So what he actually presented to you on the previous occasion was his own experiences and memories in that capacity.  What became clear to us after having heard of the submission that he made to the Commission was that there were also other aspects of what the government at that stage did, as Mr Kriel has particularly referred to, in trying to prevent the tragedy of the 7th of September.  And we thought that it would be appropriate therefore for the National Party to ensure that that particular experience, that Mr Kriel and Mr Radue could share with the Commission should also be submitted to you, and that we would like to reflect from an overall perspective, therefore, how the National Party see the events that led up to the shooting and what actually went wrong at that occasion.  So there was no indication from my side that we wanted to correct what Mr Pik Botha was saying, it was just that we thought that it would have been necessary actually to give some more
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information from the perspective of the National Party.

ADV SANDI: One of the things Mr Pik Botha told this Commission was that Mr Gqozo was an embarrassment to your government, was this a general attitude on the part of your Cabinet at the time?

MR MEYER: Let me put it in these terms Commissioner that I think we all had certain experiences in dealing with Mr Gqozo at that stage.  I can reflect on what I was aware of in terms of our attempts to negotiate a peaceful constitutional outcome where the Ciskean regime, through Mr Gqozo and his delegates participated at Codesa and thereafter also at the multi-party negotiating process at Kempton Park, and it often occurred to us that we are dealing here with a difficult person.  So whatever the description is that one would use in terms of how we experienced the gentleman, I think we all came to the same conclusion, and that is we were dealing with a person that could act irresponsibly with power.  And in that regard I think we can share the views that were also submitted by Mr Botha to the Commission.

ADV SANDI: In his testimony Mr Pik Botha says at some stage a thought was given to remove Mr Gqozo from power in the Ciskei, is this something that was ever discussed at Cabinet level?

MR MEYER: I can't recall that.  Mr Kriel might also assist me in this regard, but I can't recall that that was something that was specifically discussed at Cabinet level.  But it would be difficult for me to say off the cuff no to that, but I can't recall that that was specifically discussed.  Because what we attempted to do, from the side of the South African Government, was actually to get a
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constitutional resolve to the whole conflict as quickly as 
possible.  I might point out that throughout the period after the normalisation of the political process has started in 1990, it was our endeavour all the time to, as quickly as possible, find a way forward as far as an all party or a multi party negotiated settlement is concerned.  Therefore throughout 1990 and 1991 we tried to urge all the parties to come to the table for negotiations as quickly as possible.  In that process I would say that the first and real objective of the then South African Government was actually to find, as quickly as possible, a negotiated settlement, get all the parties there and that eventually of course happened when we got all the parties together at Codesa 1, and that was the main aim that I believe the South African Government amongst ourselves shared, but it was certainly also the main aim that was shared by all the parties as I indicated in the submission, inter alia also by the ANC and its alliance partners.

ADV SANDI: I thank you Mr Meyer.  I may have to come back to you.  Thank you Chairman.