Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

MR WILLS: You must have been aware of Jimmy's arrangement to meet her and the terrorists because you, in the next paragraph you describe how your operation of observation and a planned signal was all co-ordinated.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That was the arrangement.

MR WILLS: So surely then you must have been expecting her to be in the car as well as the other terrorists?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson, I'll repeat.  The objective with the operation was that Jimmy would be introduced to the terrorists and when he was introduced to the terrorists, the operation would have changed from that point on.  The terrorists were not there and consequently this was an unfortunate arrest of Nthombi Khubeka.  The objective was not to arrest her with the terrorists and Jimmy, this was a pseudo operation, Jimmy and the others were to have contacted the terrorists through her.

MR WILLS: So surely, what I can't understand is surely if Jimmy hadn't achieved what was set out to be his task, i.e. to just bring the terrorists along, he would have contacted you and told you that the mission is aborted, but instead when Jimmy, on your version, has knowledge of that, of that fact that he doesn't have the other terrorists, he gives the signals for you to come and arrest.  It seems strange to me.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would suggest that you ask Mr Mbane that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you or anybody else speak Mr Mbane about this aspect and was he rebuked at all or disciplined for messing up the operation, if I can put it that way?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall, Chairperson.  I cannot recall that we addressed him about it.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Botha, if something goes wrong and it has such major impacts as in the death of a woman, then one would certainly take it up with the person who was responsible for it.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I hear what you say, but I would not be able to have Mr Mbane responsible for her death, the fact that he had erred in the planning of an operation.

ADV BOSMAN: I am not speaking of legal responsibility, it is certainly the mistake that he had made which led to the fact that Mrs Khubeka had been assaulted.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And she had died in your care.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Then my question is, he had caused a very grave situation.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, but one does not go further.  He knows that he has erred, to go and tramp on him will not save the matter and bring her back.  One continues from there.

ADV BOSMAN: One would have expected that you would have said, "Look what happens if you do not follow your orders to the letter".

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall if I addressed Jimmy about it, possibly Capt Baker under whose direct command he was, but I did not.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Chairperson.  Now there's evidence and I think it's Coetzer again, who indicates that she struggled in your attempts to pull her into the back of your panel van, as you described it.  Is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall that - it is possible that she struggled, yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me, tell the Committee and the families specifically exactly how she was removed from the car and put in the back of the panel van and who did it?  Who were the people responsible for picking her up, how it was done?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I think the door was opened and she was physically pulled from the vehicle and if I recall correctly, by Sam du Preez and by Basson and whoever had been present.

MR WILLS: Did you tell her at any stage that she was under arrest and that you were the police?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, was this Battery Beach, it's a public beach?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: A public place, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there members of the public present, because that must have been then during the afternoon?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Correct, Battery Beach has a large parking area.  I don't know if it's still the case, I know there have been some changes brought about with the pool there, but in my opinion nobody observed that we had taken her from there.

MR WILLS: It seems probable that had she resisted, it would have been necessary to tie her up?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Not necessarily, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well how would have you dealt with her?  How would have you contained her in the back of the car?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If two people could overpower her, two more people and she was just one person, it was not necessary to tie her up.  That minibus had one sliding door, it was closed the person could not go anywhere other than remaining inside.

MR WILLS: Now you were involved in the death of Portia Ndwandwe, is that not correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now are you - I haven't seen your application in that regard,  are you aware of the manner in which she died?  And this is relevant Mr Chairperson, I will explain later.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I don't know how.

MR WILLS: You don't know that she was shot?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I heard the evidence here, but I was not present so I don't know what the exact position was.

MR WILLS: Well I just put it to you that looking at the injury, the bullet wound, to the deceased that was unearthed in this matter, the deceased that we believe is the remains of Nthombi Khubeka, that she was killed in a remarkably similar way to the way that Ndwandwe was killed i.e. a bullet wound through the top of the head.  Can you comment on that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If you say so.

MR WILLS: Now, turning to the disposal of the body, did you say that it was your order to those that you tasked to dispose of the body, to dispose of the body close to the home of the deceased?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And what did you mean by that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Exactly what I had said, in the vicinity.  That the body be left in the vicinity of Inanda so that it could be found.

MR WILLS: Did you ever find out where the body was dumped?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I was informed that it was close to Bambayi.

MR WILLS: Do you know how far that is from the deceased's house?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Exact distance in metres, no Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Can you guess?  If I put it to you that it was approximately 5 kilometres, would you disagree?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I was not at the scene where she was left, I don't even have an estimation.  There is no way in which I can make a guess.

MR WILLS: But if she was put some 5 kilometres away from her home, is that close, in your view?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I cannot ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Wills is asking is, if the body, assume that the body was placed approximately 5 kilometres from her home, would you have considered that to be in compliance with the order that you gave?  You would have been satisfied with that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would have said it had to be closer, Chairperson.  So consequently, it is not the inference that I drew on the question, but it would have been too far for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I drew the wrong inference, Mr Wills, perhaps you should put the question.

MR WILLS: Yes, I mean that was the gist of my question that's been answered, thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Now you say it was your intention that the body was, would be identified easily, that was how you wanted to dump the body in such a way that it would be easily identified.  The only thing that you wanted to cover up was the involvement of the police in the death?