Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Actually we were going to attack the Bophuthatswana Defence Force in case that we can pave, we can smooth the way for the incoming military supplement, sir.

MR VALLY: I won't go into details about that issue because it is not material here. What I am going to do is, because your statement does jump around a bit, I am going to try and take you chronologically through what you say and I will refer you to certain paragraphs and pages in your submission and ask you to confirm it, whether it's correct or not.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Let us first begin with the death of Mr Vincent Sefako.  You were not present when he was killed, is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I was not, sir.

MR VALLY: Did you hear the same Sunday that he was killed about his death?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Come again, sir.

MR VALLY: When did you hear about Mr Sefako's death?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: The very same day, sir.

MR VALLY: On page 13, paragraphs 2 and 3, you state that you met a Mr Tsepo who advised you that a man was hit by a car and that the occupants had taken his pistol.  You continue and you say that you ran back to Mrs Mathibe's house to tell her about the incident, and outside the Mathibe's house you heard a woman telling people about the same incident.  This woman was saying that a car hit the victim on the pavement. Is this what happened?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's what I've heard, sir.

MR VALLY: At this point did you know the person they were talking about was Vincent Sefako?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I was definitely sure, sir.

MR VALLY: You go on and say that you asked Mrs Mathibe to go and get more details from this next-door neighbour. This you say on page 14 paragraph 4, is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: In the next paragraph of your statement, page 14(5), you say that on Monday, and was this the following day?, you were picked up from Mrs Mathibe's place by Peter Dlamini and another man and taken to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house.  Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes it is correct, sir.

MR VALLY: In which section of Soweto was the house you were taken to?  In which portion of Soweto was this house that you were taken to?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Diepkloof.

MR VALLY: Is this Diepkloof Extension?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, the old house, the corner house, the old Mrs Mandela's house, the old one.  I think it's Orlando West, ja.

MR VALLY: Sorry, do you want to say something further?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, I am fine.

MR VALLY: You stated, paragraph 6, page 14
"At the house there was a certain Percy Patterson, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and her daughter Zinzi."
Were they all present during the subsequent conversation you had there?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: They were all present, sir.

MR VALLY: On paragraph 6 and 7, page 14, you state that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela asked you where you were going with Vincent Sefako and what you were going to do, and you told her about your mission.  Was this the Bophuthatswana mission you referred to earlier?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes it was, sir.

MR VALLY: Did you tell Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about the car accident you had been informed about?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I did.

MR VALLY: What details did you give her?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: [Indistinct]

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, I am asking you a question about the car accident that you had been informed about, what information did you give Mrs Madikizela-Mandela on the car accident?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Oh, about what I've heard.

MR VALLY: And exactly what did you tell her?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That when I was coming out from Mrs Dipuo's house, then when I crossed the tar road about to go home, then I meet a guy by the name of Sepo Mofeto, who stays next - not far away from home. So Sepo told me that he saw a person who was hit down by a car.  Then that person comes up - from that person a pistol falls out and that same occupant of the car which hit the person came out and took the pistol.  So then that's why I know that no, it must be the guy.  Then I went inside, when I was about to enter the gate there was a lady who stays at next door. She was talking to another lady that the car just hit the person on the - she said in Sotho that .....

MR VALLY: Will you just interpret that for us?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: She said the car just hit the .... [no recording]

MR VALLY: Thank you very much.  You go on to say page 14, paragraph 7, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela asked you what you were going to use for your Bophuthatswana mission. You said you had two AK 47 magazines and a limpet mine.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela then told Peter to take you to your place and fetch all those weapons.  Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Who is this Peter you are referring to?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Peter Dube.

MR VALLY: Peter Dube?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Is this a different person from Peter Dlamini?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I only know him by Peter Dube, sir.

MR VALLY: Going on with your statement, you say that on your way to the house of Peter, sorry, on your way to the house to collect these weapons, Peter asked you who had told you about the incident and you told him it was Sepo, and Peter asked you to take him to Sepo's house, which you did but Sepo was not in.  Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's correct, sir.

MR VALLY: You then went to collect your weapons. Having collected your weapons, you were then dropped off at Miss Dipuo's house and told not to go anywhere and they would come back to fetch you at 8 p.m. Is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Correct, sir.

MR VALLY: You met at 8 p.m. at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house again where you were told by Percy Patterson that you should avenge the death of Vincent Sefako, is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Correct.

MR VALLY: You were told by Peter that you should go to Sepo's house and tell Sepo that Peter wanted to see him the following day, is this correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Also correct.

MR VALLY: You state that you went to Sepo's house and the place was locked and you were unable to leave a message, is that correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: You go on and state that Miss Mathibe had gone to see a neighbour and that the neighbour had seen the incident and had seen the person who had called the ambulance, but when the ambulance had arrived the victim was no longer lying on the ground.  You say this at paragraph 10, page 15.  Did Miss Mathibe tell you this?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Was this neighbour the unknown woman who was subsequently shot?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: The person I have referred to as Miss Susan Maripa.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did Miss Mathibe tell you she had been visited by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, accompanied by two other persons, two days after the death of the person we've referred to as Mr Sefako?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Your question again, sir.

MR VALLY: Okay.  I refer you to paragraph 11, page 15, of your statement.  Did Miss Mathibe tell you that she had been visited by Mrs Madikizela Mandela, accompanied by others, two days after the death of the person she refers to as Vusile and you know as Vincent?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: After the death of Susan?

MR VALLY: I suggest you look at your submission to the Truth Commission, look at page 15, paragraph 11.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: I'll read it to you.  In fact, let's start from page, from paragraph 10.
"Dipuo did went to see a neighbour.  She told Dipuo that she saw the incident and she called the ambulance but when the ambulance arrived the victim was no more there".
And then we go on to paragraph 11.
"Dipuo did mention this to Mrs Mandela, who said she wanted to see this woman.  This woman knows too much.  Peter was sent by Mrs Mandela to fetch the woman.  The woman was not at home that day."
Do you confirm this?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Who was sent by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to fetch the neighbour?