Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, do you have any other knowledge of the AWB?  Do you know what they stand for?  Do you know what their principles are?  Do you know what they want?  What does the AWB want?  What are they working for?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not know anything and I don't have or never had any interest about their wants and their interests etc.

MR TERREBLANCHE: In other words, you do not know what the program of principles are of the AWB?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: At all Sir.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You do not know if they want apartheid?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, please do not repeat your question.  I told you that I do not know, I did not know and I was never interested in knowing, Sir.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You see, Mr Menyatsoe, the reason why I am asking this is in the politics of the AWB and the politics you support, you killed these people.  Because you say you do not know anything about the AWB.  In other words, it is not about politics that you killed them.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I killed them because they wanted to kill the black nation, that is why I was defending the nation.  I had to protect the nation, it was my duty to protect them, should they be endangered and the danger was caused by your army.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Yes, Mr Menyatsoe, it is of course not my defence force, but let us leave it there.
	This nation that the AWB wanted to kill, this black nation.  Are you referring to two incidents or cases where one of those vehicles shot or fired shots, is that what you are talking about now?  Are you now talking about this nation.  They were then on their was out of Bophuthatswana.  You killed them because they wanted to kill the black nation.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, when this Commission started here, you were watching the television there and it showed you how your own soldiers killed people from the 10th til the morning of the 11th up until I stopped them by killing them myself.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, I am not asking or telling you to tell me what was on the television.  I am asking you to tell me personally, when did you, I asked you earlier on, where did the AWB kill people and you said they shot two persons.  That was the morning of the 11th, you cannot now tell me that you saw on television what happened on the 10th.
	The morning of the 11th, you said that they killed two people or shot or injured, two people in front of you.  That was it.  Now you say that the AWB wants to kill the black nation and I cannot leave it there.  I have to ask this to you.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, the AWB members had already killed many people.  I heard how your soldiers killed or injured black people and furthermore I witnessed it myself when I saw this blue Mercedes Benz and the vans that were going across Mafikeng shooting.  Therefore it was quite clear that the killings were going to continue and I decided that rather than to leave these people to destroy the black people, it won't do me any good, but the only alternative is to do away with them and that is exactly what I did.
	After having shot these people as I have already told you and you witnessed it yourself that after this incident there was cease fire here in Mafikeng.

MR TERREBLANCHE: So Mr Menyatsoe, you are saying, saying to this Commission that by killing the injured, the decision you made yourself, you will stop the AWB who wants to kill the black nation.  You do not have any knowledge about the AWB.  You told me this, you do not know what their programs or principles are.  You did not want to tell me if the AWB supported apartheid or not.  You do not know anything about this but you will kill three of them.  Then all of these things that was in your head at that stage would then stop.
	Lucas Mangope, that is now the next question, his government, how did Mr Mangope became the President of Bophuthatswana?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't know that history.

MR TERREBLANCHE: If I tell you that he was elected as President, as a Tswana captain or chief, he was chosen as President, will you disagree with me?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Because you know that how he was put into power, why do you ask me that question because you know the answer to that question.  I don't know the answer about that question, I hear from you.

MR TERREBLANCHE: That is all that I wanted to know, just that you do not know what the answer was.
	What does one do with a President that you do not like?  How do you get rid of him, how did you perceive this?  The people wanted to go and vote, the President and his cabinet do not want to vote.  What do you do if you do not like your President or do not agree with him in Bophuthatswana?

ADV MOTATA: Before the applicant replies to that question, I think our, your cross-examination, Mr Terreblanche should be confined to the incident because when asking questions, you should have his evidence and even that written on paper in full context, because his evidence in chief and some under cross-examination, he did not say he was fighting for Mangope.  He said his aversion was that the AWB people, or the people he perceived to be AWB were killing his own people, that is the black people.  Now if we are going to come and say how Mangope came into power within Bophuthatswana we would be moving out of the ambient of what we have got to decide because it should be very clear that did he act with a political motive or did he give a full disclosure of his actions?  I think that would take us nearer to what we want.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Chairperson, I would just like to get to the point then where the applicant decided as in the document that he did indeed acted against his own government without the instructions of any of his Commanders and that he killed people in this process.  The fact is, Mr Chairperson, that the right wing who were here, if it was the AWB or the BKA, they were here to support Mangope.
	The applicant indicated very clearly that although he was a policeman in that government he did not support Mangope's views concerning the elections and that he did not support Mangope's allies and that he killed them.  I just wanted to make this point that the manner of his dissatisfaction was to have a election and that is to out-vote that person.  And my question is if it would be a democratic government then or not?  Thank you very much

CHAIRPERSON: Except we are really not interested in the applicant's extent of his knowledge in political theory but if you want to put any question directly, you can put it as long as it is relevant to any submissions that you will be making at the end of these proceedings.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I hesitate now to ask further questions in order to prove that the actions was not politically motivated and it was because he was scared and shocked and angry at the AWB who shot these people.  I would like to reveal the debt of his political motive if you do not allow me to do this, I will then follow the rules and leave it there.

CHAIRPERSON: But as long as the questions are relevant.   We don't have to go into asking the witness how a President is elected etc or how do you get rid of a President.  Just ask direct questions as to establish what he knows or doesn't know with regard to the situation as it then prevailed.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Then in those circumstances, those people who were dissatisfied with Mr Mangope, what did they do here in the streets.  You are a peace officer, you have to uphold the peace, there is a war situation.  What did the people in Mmabatho do, those who were not satisfied with Mr Mangope's decision?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: You saw how they were burning.  You know that the Mega City has been built for the second time.