Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-09

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Although I don't want to mention names, I am a resident of Grahamstown, but people who had passed standard 2 or standard 3, would be recruited for as long as they would obey and carry out the instructions of the Government.
 Some of them were educated, for example this girl that was mentioned here, Duzana Hoboshe is one of the girls who was educated.  While speaking to you here, she is a lecturer in the police.  So I am saying to you that not all bad comes out of bad, some people come out of that, some good comes out of that.
 The people that were recruited there, were used by the Government to oppress the people because the shooting that took place was because even the education which they received, it took three weeks for them to train people in how to use firearms and how to shoot other people.  In conclusion of this point, legally speaking these people had no right to work in the municipal area here in Grahamstown.
 They worked in the location only so that they did not shoot any White people, but they only shot Blacks.  And that got them promoted to such an extent where people with standard 3 would be the seniors of matriculants.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, we thank you for saying some very interesting things here, but we would like you to tell us approximately how long your testimony will take.

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Sir if  you would like me to be very brief, I can tell you about my house, but I wanted to give you a background about the people here today.
 As I said my house was burnt in 1987.  What happened was...

CHAIRPERSON: One moment please sir, I just want to understand that, could you give us an indication of approximately how long you will take?

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: I don't want to set a time for you, I would like you to set a time for me.  But I need to satisfy you as well.

CHAIRPERSON: The other witnesses who testified before you took 10 minutes and less and we would not like to appear as if we were treating you any different.  We would like to treat everyone the same.   So I would ask you to please limit yourself and we will grant you 10 more minutes, would that satisfy you?

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: So if I start now, what time should I stop?

CHAIRPERSON: If you could please stop at about 10 past.

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is according to my watch.  You should just give us a preview into all these ideas which you would like to express here, but just try and cover everything within the time.  Some of us have long distances to travel and time is of the essence.

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: As I said, my house burnt in 1987 if I am not mistaken, on the 31st of March and on the 9th of April.
 On the 31st of March I was at work, I was working night shift.  When I got to my house without knowing that my house had burnt down, no one had come to tell me.   I got there at the time I had one child who was not there and I was told by my neighbours that my house had been set alight the previous evening and they had put out the fire.
 And it was thanks to my neighbours that the whole house had not burnt out and that some rooms could still be salvaged.  And my wife and child could escape through a window and run to my sister's house, to Mrs Mdingi.
 On the second occasion I was at home, it was late, at approximately 9 pm.  What happened is that when I came out and saw my house surrounded by fire and everything was burning, I came out with my firearm.  To my surprise I found that the children who had set my house alight, their ages ranged between 10 and 15.
 That told me that these children did not know me.  That is what I concluded there and then because I am not afraid to say that no matter how big the toyi-toyi was here in town, I passed them with a clear conscience because up to this day, I have a clear conscience.
 Any one who would wish to dispute that, is welcome to stand up and dispute that.  I have no guilt in my community, I have a clear conscience, I am aware of the problems in my community.  What baffled me was why my house had to be burnt by young children whom I did not even know.
 But I concluded that these children must have been sent by someone with the intention that being seated here today, someone was going to get up and say Nondzube, but thank God, I did not shoot anyone's children, I let them go.
 I said that I live in this community and the comrades were there at the time.  I am even referring to the organisations.  The organisations, any one who was in the Councillors or whoever, can - no one came to tell me who had burnt my house, but my house was burnt.
 At the beginning of last year I was fortunate.  I am now referring to the ministers of religion and the teachers that are seated here.  The people seated in this hall that work for the community, I was very fortunate in that I was able to attend a meeting where the ministers of religion wanted to initiate a reconciliation process.
 I asked them who they wanted to do that to and they said that they were going to focus on the victims.  And I wanted to know where the perpetrators were.  And since that day, up to date, these ministers of religion left and never came back.  What are they afraid of?  Why did they not go  to these people?
 They know who the perpetrators were, why did they not go to them?  My time is up and I am going to stop there although there was one more thing which I wanted to conclude with.
 I would like to conclude by saying that as policemen,
what are we to do to bring about change?  In my religion conversion comes in three stages.  One of them, the final stage, is acknowledgement, forgetting and asking for forgiveness.
 And as police, I think that we have to say to the community of Grahamstown, we are sorry.  Secondly, to bring about change.  We have to humble ourselves and change.
 Thirdly to acknowledge the faults by saying we acknowledge that these things were done by policing and as a policeman I cannot distance myself and say that I did not do that, I am also a policeman.
 If you listened to the testimony here, you would have heard that in almost all cases, the police were involved.  To bring about change eventually, and reconcile and I would like to conclude by saying that we should bring about reconciliation.

ADV SANDI: I am going to hand you back to the Chairman Mr Nondzube.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions?  No questions?  Have you got a question?

ADV SANDI: Yes.  Mr Nondzube, do you have - do you suspect anyone of being responsible for the arson on your house?

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Chairperson, I do not want to say that the house was set alight by any particular person, because I did not see who set my house alight, but in this testimony which I put here before you today, you have to find who burnt my house.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much.  I thank you Mr Nondzube for lecturing us about the policing problems.  Unfortunately, your time was very short, but the way you
related your story was very interesting and perhaps we should have started with you this morning already.  I thank you very much.