Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: The way in which they saw this, they suspected that these were weapons because they were heavy, especially the watchmen who was working there, staying there and sleeping in that house.
	One day when he was trying to help his employer carrying these heavy things, his employer refused.  Those were the things that made them suspect that something was wrong, they suspected that those might be weapons because he used to help him in carrying stuff.

MR ZILWA: Okay, so there were these suspicions that there were these things that were thought to be weapons, being smuggled in.  Please carry on.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: All these things were brought by the workers, they were problems of the workers.  Because there were rumours that Costello was a member of the AWB, we then tried to investigate from the workers so that we can get more information because we were interested in that because we had heard rumours that he was a member of the AWB.
	Even though we didn't get concrete evidence that those were weapons and the situation is as they were putting it to us, but we saw that when we were having meetings, there were a lot of cars around that would leave at night, and we would combine what the workers told us, together with what was happening.  That showed us that even though we were not sure, there was something like that, that maybe he was a member of the AWB and there were weapons which were coming to that area.

ADV DE JAGER: Where was Costello living?  Where was his house and his business?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: In town.

MR ZILWA: Let's carry on.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: The other thing that happened is, what we got from the workers, was that he said that he was moving away from Port St Johns.  A removal truck came to take his furniture and everything as he was actually relocating.  He left with his wife, but what actually surprised us, he didn't actually leave, as he is still there even today.	The place continued to be their place of rendezvous.

MR ZILWA: When you say they, you are talking about Costello and who else?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: And the whites who used to visit his place.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does he stay now?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I was sentenced while he was still staying there at Port St Johns.

MR ZILWA: Please carry on.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: All that actually raised our suspicions and we could see actually that Costello was exactly what we thought because of his actions.  Just before I left that place in 1992 ...

CHAIRPERSON: What did he do that strengthened your suspicions?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: The information that we would get from the workers that he would have visitors coming from the direction of the coast, and the parcels that were suspected as weapons.  People from the office would visit Costello to try and solve the problem of the workers.
	We would not get respect from him, we would not get an opportunity to discuss with him, to discuss matters with him.  That became a problem and some of the workers were dismissed and there were problems which were never solved, because it was difficult for us to meet and discuss with him.

CHAIRPERSON: I am confused, assume that you were correct in your, and he was a member of the AWB and there was a movement of the AWB in the area, and they were importing arms, how did that effect you, or your political parties?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I am not sure, if you can give me the opportunity to clarify this, because I was still narrating this story about Costello.   Maybe some things that were actually effecting us, would actually be revealed in the process of trying to narrate this story about Costello.
	I wonder if you can give me that opportunity?  In 1992, October or September if I am not mistaken, during a launch of the Communist Party, we had our flags that were outside the hall and we also had our marshals who were there to keep peace outside.  While we were inside, in the process of launching, cars came from outside Port St Johns coming in to Port St Johns, they came to the hall where the launch was being held.
	They surrounded the place, they were hooting with hazards on.  That took actually a long time because there were cars who couldn't pass on the road, they had to wait for this demonstration to come to an end.

CHAIRPERSON: What did Costello have to do with that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I am still telling the story, that is not yet the end.
	When they finished, they left and they took the direction of the beach front, they left Costello behind.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, you say they left Costello behind.  Let's get that clear.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: These cars left after this demonstration, sort of.  They went towards the direction of, they went to the second beach and they left Costello's house, they did not get into Costello's house.  They did this next to Costello's house, the hall was next to Costello's house, that is where they were doing this thing.

MR ZILWA: Who were the people that were doing this ruction?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: White people that were unknown to me because there were even bikes behind, motor bikes behind.  What we actually noticed, the cars that were coming in, in Costello's house holding a meeting there, among the cars that were there, disrupting the meeting, there was a van that was identified as a van that used to be seen in Costello's house.

ADV SANDI: I think the translators did not translate this very clearly.  Can you repeat what you have just said.  You have suspected that some of the cars were there on the day, they were causing that problem.  Can you repeat what you have just said.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: The cars that were disrupting the meeting, the launch of the Communist Party, as that was something that used to happen to see whites visiting Costello's house in the meeting, during this meeting, these meetings, sometimes would see cars that look like the cars that were there around the hall during this day of this launch of the Communist Party.
	In 1992, I think it was November or December or towards the end of the year, when I was on my way to Durban with my father, he had hired a bus to transport some people because it was a festive season, we boarded the bus to Durban.  There is a white man who came, wearing short pants, khaki short pants and a khaki shirt with a bag behind his back.
	I saw this man in the morning before half past six as I went to town to buy milk to make my father's coffee, I saw him getting out of Costello's house, I did not know where he was going at that time.  Later I saw him boarding the bus.
	He was from Costello's house.  On our way, we were far away, we were out of Transkei, I can't remember where we were at the time, this white man was talking, telling the people that he was a member of AWB.  He is from a certain mission at Port St Johns, he did not explain the type of a mission that he was involved in, but we later realised that he was drinking white brandy, colourless spirits.
	He said all those things, though I could not understand him clearly, because most of the time he was using Afrikaans language.   I reported that to the ANC office in the Branch at Port St Johns.

MR ZILWA: Yes?