Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MR STRYDOM: The leader of your group, Damarra Chonco, did you see that he fired shots?

JACK MBELE: I saw him shooting, but it was in the township.

MR STRYDOM: With what kind of weapon?

JACK MBELE: 1847.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know an person by the Andries Nosenga?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: An affidavit was handed to us, which purports to be an affidavit of Andries Nosenga, and I want to read a certain portion to you, and I want a comment.  I refer to Exhibit ...

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Strydom, we haven't given it a number yet as far as I remember.

MR STRYDOM: Ja.

MR LAX: It will probably only handed in formally at a later stage.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  I will just read paragraph 4 of this document to you
"When we got out of the hostel onto the road, we were picked up by a police Casspir driven by a white man whose name I don't know.  In the hippo there was Shaga of the security branch;  a white policeman known to me as Rooikop who had red hair;  Peens and our driver.  There were 14 or 15 IFP members inside the hippo.  Others were walking alongside.  Those that I remember who were in the hippo were, Katene, who had ordered us to get into the hippo;  Reuben, Themba, Lucky, Makuka, and Dondo."
Now the question I want to ask you is this reference of the name Dondo, are you also known as Dondo?

JACK MBELE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: On the night of the 17th of June 1992 did you get into any hippo?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person with the name of Shaga?

JACK MBELE: Yes I know him.

MR STRYDOM: Where do you know him from?

JACK MBELE: He's a policeman, I knew as we were being arrested.

MR STRYDOM: Have you been arrested by Shaga?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Has he arrested other people you know?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a white policeman known as Rooikop?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person or a policeman with the name of Peens?

JACK MBELE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Where do you know him from?

JACK MBELE: I knew him from Flora Garden.

MR STRYDOM: Is Flora Garden the name of the Murder and Robbery Squad Unit in Vanderbijlpark?

JACK MBELE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Howcome that you know him?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson there was a little technical problem.

MR STRYDOM: The question is, from where or how did it come about that you know Peens?

JACK MBELE: We were once arrested on our arrival at Flora Gardens.  The people who knew him told me his name.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the fact that he was the policeman who arrested people, did you have any dealings with him in the sense that you worked with him, if I can put it that way?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: According to you, on the night of the 17th of June 1992, was the police part of this attack?

JACK MBELE: The police were not present.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any white people with or without balaclavas present at any stage during the attack?

JACK MBELE: I never saw white people at all.

MR STRYDOM: Can you thing of any reason why you would protect police or white people?

JACK MBELE: No reason Sir.

MR STRYDOM: This person I've mentioned earlier on, Andries Nosenga, do you know him?

JACK MBELE: Maybe I know him facially, but I do not know him when you refer to him by that name.

MR STRYDOM: If I give you the further information, would you be able to state if you know him?  According to this document he's 23 years old, and is in prison presently serving a sentence of 16 years for murder at Maximum B Prison in Leeuwhof.  He was convicted in February 1995.  Do you have any knowledge of this?

JACK MBELE: Maybe you're referring to Matanzema, yes I know that.

MR STRYDOM: Now this person Matanzema, did you see him on the night of the attack?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, when you got back to the hostel, did you first go to the stadium or directly to your room?

JACK MBELE: I went straight to my room.

MR STRYDOM: On the following day did you see that certain goods that came from Boipatong was burned?

JACK MBELE: Yes, that's true.

MR STRYDOM: Did you assist in that process?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who ordered the burning of the goods?

JACK MBELE: I do not know who ordered the burning of the goods.

MR STRYDOM: What was the reason why you decided to go with the group to attack Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: I did not live happily.  If I wanted to go to Vereeniging or Vanderbijlpark, people were to be taken out of the taxis and be burned.  When we were walking in Sharpeville, we would be chased after.  Our lives were not nice at all.  The people of Boipatong were always blocking us.

MR STRYDOM: According to you, who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: I would say the people who lived there, and the reason being that the people harassed us and we were dying, and nothing was happening.  The police did not even take care.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, but the question is, who gave the instruction to attack?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Strydom, he thinks you're saying who gave the instruction to attack him and his fellow inmates, that's why he's given that answer.

MR STRYDOM: Who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong - the question is who gave the instruction to the residents of kwaMadala to attack Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: I would say it's Damarra.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, will you be - who's going to start that side?

MR BERGER: I'm going to start.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be convenient if we take about 15 minutes break?

MR BERGER: That will be convenient yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a 15 minute break and come back at 16h10.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you that you are still under oath to speak the truth.  Do you understand that?

JACK MBELE: (s.u.o)

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  	Mr Mbele you said that you could think of no reason why you would want to protect the police or why you would want to protect the whites involved in the attack on Boipatong.  Do you know of two policemen by the name of, one was called Monare and the other policeman was Xaba, X-A-B-A?

JACK MBELE: I do not know them.

MR BERGER: Well I can tell you that they gave evidence in which they implicated the police and they have both since been killed.  My instructions are that they gave evidence during the Goldstone Commission hearing into the events at Boipatong, do you have any knowledge of that?

JACK MBELE: No.

MR BERGER: You gave evidence that you were shot by the comrades.  Is it correct that you went to hospital after this attack?

JACK MBELE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When you were in hospital, did you have a bullet removed from your left thigh?

JACK MBELE: I was referring to the right leg, not the left leg.

MR BERGER: Did you ever have a bullet removed from your left thigh?

JACK MBELE: I think so.

MR BERGER: When was that?

JACK MBELE: I think it was around 1991.

MR BERGER: How many times have you been in hospital to have bullets removed from your legs?

JACK MBELE: Three times.

MR BERGER: When was the first time?

JACK MBELE: It was in 1991 when I was fighting with the comrades.

MR BERGER: And the second time?

JACK MBELE: It was the same year, 1991.

MR BERGER: And the third time?

JACK MBELE: That was when I got injured after the Boipatong incident.

MR BERGER: Was that shortly after the Boipatong incident that you were shot?

JACK MBELE: I think so.

MR BERGER: You see, during your criminal trial you were asked at page 3393 - you were accused 64 were you not?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: The Court asked you, at line 19

MR BERGER: "Ek het vanoggend verstaan u is tweekeer geskiet?"

MR BERGER: Your answer was yes.  You were then asked:

MR BERGER: "Die eerste keer, in watter been is u geskiet?"

MR BERGER: Your answer, the left.  You were asked then:

MR BERGER: "Die tweede keer?"