Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

WITNESS:   There were disruptions in the school and the schools were being on and off and there were riots also at that time. Now, the victims that you are representing, were they members of any political organisation before the skipped the country?   ---   They were members of COSAS which was a students organisation.  All of them together with me.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, when they decided to skip the country, how did they come to this decision?

WITNESS:   They discussed it all by themselves and I wasn't there at the time that they discussed this.  We discovered this a month later when we couldn't trace there whereabouts.

MRS GCABASHE: When they went away did you ever hear as to where they were and what they were doing after they had skipped the country?

WITNESS:   We got some messages from some of those who were coming back who could not go beyond the borders of the country and they came back.  Then they told us that these people had skipped the country.

MRS GCABASHE: Can you please tell us as to where exactly did they go to and which year was it?

WITNESS:   It was in 1986 but I'm not sure about the date.

MRS GCABASHE: And where did they first land?

WITNESS:   They went to Lesotho and from Lesotho they proceeded to Tanzania.

MRS GCABASHE: At that time did you hear anything from them?  Did they ever write you any letters or contact you?

WITNESS:   No, they never did write any letters and they never made any contact with their parents.

MRS GCABASHE: The last time you heard was that they were in Tanzania and what happened thereafter?

WITNESS:   I think we stayed for almost two years and it was only thereafter that we got the message that all of them had died. How did you come to hear that they had died?   ---  The ANC office which is based here in Welkom wrote us letters letting us know that they were dead and they had died in Tanzania.  We were told they died in Angola.

MRS GCABASHE: You say the office in Welkom notified you.  Who were they?  Who were the authorities?  Who were in charge there?

WITNESS:   It was Mr Nyembesi.

MRS GCABASHE: What is his name?

WITNESS:   No, I only know that he was Nyembesi.  I don't know his first name.

MRS GCABASHE: Was he a resident here in Welkom?

WITNESS:   Yes, and he's still alive.

MRS GCABASHE: Is he the one who came to tell you that these people had died?

WITNESS:   Yes, he's the one.  He was together with his colleagues, his ANC colleagues, but I don't know what their names are.  I've forgotten them.

MRS GCABASHE: You've talked Oupa Munere in our statement as well as Ace Magashule.

WITNESS:   Oupa Munere was our contact person from Shell House and Act Magashule was a very conversant with our case and he was always advising us as to what steps to take.

MRS GCABASHE: When you heard that they had died did you ever get to know as to what killed them or how they died?

WITNESS:  Yes, we were told as to how they died.

MRS GCABASHE: How did they die?

WITNESS:   They were shot in Angola.  We were told that they had been shot by the commanders of their groups.  They were divided into certain groups and each group had a leader.  I don't know how to explain this but he was a leader and there were certain commanders who were leading each group.  Maybe a group would be comprised of ten members.  There were different groups.  We don't know their leaders. Did you ever get to know who their leaders were?   ---   I knew about Moses Radebe.  Moses Radebe was a leader of the group that skipped the country, that is the group of the victims.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you mean the leader of the victims who left?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was the leader of the victims.

MRS GCABASHE: His name was Moses Radebe?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.  The leader was Moses Radebe.

MRS GCABASHE: How did you know as to what happened because you say you had no contact with these people?

WITNESS:   There are certain people or a group of people who came back into the country and they told us what had happened to the victims.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you know their names, that is the names of the people who came back?

WITNESS:   I know them facially but I've forgotten their names and they're still around in Welkom.

MRS GCABASHE: If the Commission could like to establish contact with them, can you point them out?

WITNESS:   Yes, I can because they're members of the MK.

MRS GCABASHE: What makes you forget their names because you do see them and you seem to know them?

WITNESS:   We don't have really close contact.  I see them facially but I don't know their names.

MRS GCABASHE: There are certain other names that have been mentioned.  I don't know whether you're familiar with these names.  They seem to be connected to your case.  Do you perhaps know George Tutu?

WITNESS:   I say I know him because he's in the list.  I also know Vuyo Chas.  I know Ndoyisile Caule as well.  I also know Zoga Baloyi.  I also know about Joyce Midube. Do you know Kani Chauk?   ---   No, I don't think I know Kani Chauk.  I also know David Mzobe.

MRS GCABASHE: You don't know Chauk?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do not know Chauk.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you know as to who these people died?

WITNESS:   Yes, I know about some of them but not all of them.  Because Vuyo was shot by the police, the Brandfort police.

MRS GCABASHE: Was there ever any case held or an inquest with regard to his death?

WITNESS:   Yes, his mother was the one who was running up and down with regard to the case but I do no know who was handling the case.  I think his mother has all the information.

MRS GCABASHE: What is his mother's name?

WITNESS:   Her name is Mary Chas.

MRS GCABASHE: Is she still staying in Brandfort?

WITNESS:   No, they are staying in Tabong in Welkom.

MRS GCABASHE: How did it come about that these people from Welkom died in Brandfort and Ndoyisile died in Bloemfontein, Zoga died in Cape Town and James died in Tabong.  Chauk died in Kroonstad and the other one in Lusaka.  Why were they so scattered?  How come did they die at such different places?

WITNESS:   They were not residing in Tabong at the present moment.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you know how they left the country?

WITNESS:   According to the information that I got was that they left due to political reasons.  They skipped the country.

MRS GCABASHE: Did they run away or they went to join a political organisation?

WITNESS:   I'm not very certain as to how some of them went away but all of them had gone out of  Welkom.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you know anything about Zoga Baloyi and as to how he died?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.  Zoga at the time was in exile and he died in Cape Town after he had come back from exile.  He came back from exile and went to Cape Town and that's where he died.  He died in Cape Town.

MRS GCABASHE: Did you ever get to know as to who killed him?

WITNESS:   I think his mother will be in a position to answer that question.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you know anything about him being an askari?  Have you ever heard about an askari?  Have you ever heard the word askari?

WITNESS:   These were the names that were used where they were.

MRS GCABASHE: I did not get that quite well.  What was an askari?

WITNESS:   It was a name or a word that as used by these people, the exiles.  The people who had skipped the country.

MRS GCABASHE: Are you referring to people who were in exile?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: What about Kani?  What happened to him?

WITNESS:   I think so.

MRS GCABASHE: Kani Chauk.  According to the record it's stated that he got ill and David died in Lusaka.  Is this information correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is correct.

MRS GCABASHE: Is that how you know it?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's how I know it.

MRS GCABASHE: Is there anything else that is left that you would like to say?  Maybe something that we left out.