Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR MARAIS: And where you refer to the fact that De Kock did not fulfil his promise and did not help you with the charge against you you refer to the case for which you are now in prison.

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR MARAIS: Why did De Kock ask you whether Maponya would recognise you again?

MR NOFOMELA: I explained to De Kock that when we met Japie I showed him my appointment certificate and I was not sure whether he had read my name or not and he had also seen me face to face.

MR MARAIS: Did you also frequent the Krugersdorp area?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
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CHAIRPERSON: After he was being interrogated where you were, you say that you left.  Where did you leave Maponya?

MR NOFOMELA: I left him with De Kock at Vlakplaas where he was being interrogated.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage was the interrogation not over?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, the interrogation was over.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you do?

MR NOFOMELA: I took the vehicle and went home.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was quite clear to you when you left that this man was going to be killed.

MR NOFOMELA: By what De Kock said I am fairly certain that it would happen.

CHAIRPERSON: The phrase you used, "Do not worry my China, he will not see you again", those are the words that conveyed to you that this man was not going to survive.

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the person who told you eventually that this man had been killed?

MR NOFOMELA: Nortje.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was that, how many days after this incident were you told that?

MR NOFOMELA: Sir, I cannot remember, but it was quite a while after this incident had taken place.

CHAIRPERSON: And did Nortje tell you that he was killed in Swaziland?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any reason to believe that Nortje was telling you the truth?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, any questions to put to this witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who is this brother about
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R MPSHE	213	A NOFOMELA
whom you wanted information from Japie?

MR NOFOMELA: Odirile Maponya.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you ever come close to arresting Odirile Maponya?

MR NOFOMELA: We investigated, but no, we never managed to arrest him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You told us that you produced a gun when inside the car.  What did you do with it?

MR NOFOMELA: I took it out to threaten him with so that he could lie flat.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was there any cause for taking out the gun?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, so that he could feel threatened and do what I wanted him to do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But what is funny is that when you approached this man in Krugersdorp outside his workplace he did exactly what you wanted him to do without producing a gun.  Now why the need for a gun later?

MR NOFOMELA: As I said, Sir, he eventually questioned where we were going because he saw that we weren't going to the police station where I had originally said we were going.  When he asked where we were going, having seen that we weren't going to the police station, I decided to take out the firearm.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The assault at Vlakplaas, besides the kicking and the slapping, what else was used on him?

MR NOFOMELA: Apart from the teargas used by Mr De Kock, I cannot remember anything else.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did he offer any resistance during the assault?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, he was blocking with his hands.  No, he was not fighting back.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many of you took part in the assault?
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MR NOFOMELA: /...
R MPSHE	214	A NOFOMELA

MR NOFOMELA: Those that I remember very well are myself, Moses Mbelo, De Kock and a few other whites, I cannot remember how many of them there were, but they did also participate.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could they have been six, seven?

MR NOFOMELA: I am not sure, Sir, I do not know.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... took part in the assault at the same time while this man was lying on the ground.

MR NOFOMELA: Mbelo and myself and Moses participated when he was there, because the people that started assaulting him were the whites.

MR NOFOMELA: So in other words he was first assaulted by the whites and thereafter he was assaulted by yourself and Mbelo.

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, and then he was assaulted by the whites again.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (Inaudible)

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How long did this assault take place, the three assaults?

MR NOFOMELA: I cannot say, I am not sure about how long it took.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could it have been an hour or less or more?

MR NOFOMELA: Sir, you have to excuse me, but I cannot guess about the time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: After the assault in what state was he when you left him there?

MR NOFOMELA: He was lying there.  When we left him his face was still covered and he was lying on the floor there after having been teargassed.  We left him lying there and his face was bloodied and all messed up.
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
R MPSHE	215	A NOFOMELA

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Your evidence is to the effect that you were told that Maponya was subsequently killed in Swaziland but I am going to refer you to your application on page 12, the contents of your application, paragraph (iv), the last sentence
"De Kock then shot Maponya".
What did you mean thereby then?

JUDGE WILSON: The copy I have, Mr Mpshe, goes on to read
"At a later stage in Swaziland but I was not present".
This has been added.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will abandon that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you abandon that question, is that correct, Mr Marais?

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.  That is part of the explanation I will get to later.  The copy Mr Mpshe has is a copy that was unsigned and faxed to him on a Monday night before the applicant could be consulted and before he could sign his application and during the consultation where I was not present apparently this was added and those must be the copies that you have as Committee members.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Still on page 12 of the application paragraph (d)
"Political objectives sought to be achieved:  To obtain information on a suspected ANC member".
Am I correct if I say the suspected ANC member is the brother, Odirile?

MR NOFOMELA: I saw it as such because that is how things transpired.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is quite clear from your application that
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Japie Maponya was not an ANC member.

MR NOFOMELA: That is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Am I correct the to state to you that the only reason for assaulting Japie Maponya and subsequently him getting killed by Eugene de Kock was to conceal your identity, that is all.

JUDGE WILSON: Isn't the evidence quite clear, Mr Mpshe, that he was assaulted to get information from him?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, that is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Not to conceal anybody's identity.  He was killed.  But the question you put was that he was assaulted and killed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I stand corrected.  He was assaulted to obtain information and he was later killed to conceal your identity.

MR NOFOMELA: I also understand it as such.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This killing had nothing to do whatsoever with any political objective.

MR NOFOMELA: I have a bit of difficulty in answering that question because the person that sent me, Eugene de Kock, knew what the political motive was.  I was merely following instructions.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, that may be so but I am reading from your application, what you have submitted to the Committee, that paragraph (d).