Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: If it was in the - I am telling you now if Henk already knew about that, if it was like somebody told me before if Henk had that card would Henk have questioned, I said yes he would have questioned him.  What I am saying is I don't think Henk or I would have re-canvassed the same issues ...(intervention)

YASMINE SOOKA: Because there is no reference to that in this document.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I understand what you are saying.  You know we have got all these statements, we have had all these evidence, we've been through it 101 times to get to where we got in this trial, in that trial at the time.  A rope was dangling in a man's face that he was going to hang, he didn't know when, today, tomorrow or when, but he never at any stage told us, I got the gun from Winnie.  We were put in that predicament, wait I am telling you now ...(intervention)

YASMINE SOOKA: But - I am sorry, I am sorry, I don't want to argue (...indistinct)

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: So what I am trying to say is those kind of things didn't come out then but it's come out now, but I would like to investigate it, if he says so he must come with that kind of evidence.  What I am trying to say is we didn't cut things short because of convenience in any way, if it's being alleged that way. We would like to help this Commission to get to the truth and if this Commission can direct us to where to go we'd like to do it.

YASMINE SOOKA: Ja but you see with respect there is one of the two witnesses did make such a statement which, whoever was investigating didn't think it fit to be used in the prosecution.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Not the investigators, may I correct you again, it's the Attorney General.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thank you very, very much gentlemen.  I was going to say you should stand down but because the third of your trio is not here and it may just be, certainly I think you Snr Supt Moodley it would probably be better if all three of your clients were here at the same time when we ask Mr Hesslinga to turn up on Wednesday.

MR CILLIER: I will make an arrangement.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thank you very much ...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson may I just make one small request.  I have looked at the investigation notes, Mr Hesslinga does not have personal knowledge that Jerry Richardson is an informer, his notes seem to suggest that it is a certain Lt Col Muller who knows those facts and we have requested that we would want to have direct evidence about Richardson being an informer.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible for you to help us with, is Inspector, what is his rank?

MR SEMENYA: Lt Col Muller.

CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Muller when instead of the trio we would have a quartet.

MR CILLIER: Mr Chairperson I will try to assist, I am not appearing for the police force I am only representing these individual policemen actually subpoenaed, I will tell the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I will be very grateful if you could assist us, but then we will see what we can do but if you can do it we will be grateful to you.  I am sorry that I had hoped to go on up to seven, some of my hopes are not always achievable.  We will resume at half past eight.  And I have to indicate that it may appear, we have not spoken to you, but we've got to finish on Wednesday, but if we don't finish on Wednesday then we have to move on to Thursday.  No, no, no I mean I understand, I am just giving a warning that we have got to finish and clearly I mean we must have ample time for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to testify and I wouldn't want us to short change you.  I am just giving advance notice.  I should in fact be in Cape Town for another hearing but it may just be.

MR RICHARDS: Chairperson with all the good will in the world, if I am going to persuade the High Court to let me go on Thursday morning, I did that this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to depend on the number of times you intervene  (general laughter) (...indistinct)

MR RICHARDS: What I was going to say it might be an idea which can be discussed between the parties that Mr Richardson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me I haven't said this hearing has ended, could you please sit down.  Thank you.

MR RICHARDS: It might be an idea which I am quite prepared to suggest and agree to it insofar as it's relevant that Mr Richardson give evidence first thing tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: No,no, no, I think we have got to try and follow - we have and we still hope to finish on Wednesday, but I am saying that it might just be possible. Don't get over-anxious.
 We adjourn until 8:30 tomorrow morning.
HEARING ADJOURNS