Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't have the opportunity.  Only, as I testified earlier  ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Before the killing, did you discuss the question of ... (intervention)

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... killing somebody, an anti-Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I discussed it with Dr Treurnicht, because to me he epitomised everything that I believed in.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, I am asking about people in your church.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You said Dr Treurnicht was not in your church.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, but I couldn't go to people within my church, Mr Chairman, and discuss this, because I was then spreading the net of potential informants against me and  ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: On what basis do you think that your church would have approved of this?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, it was the anti-Christ.  The church sees Communism as the "bose magte in die wereld".

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That's the basis on which you come to that conclusion?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: (Indistinct - speaker's mike not on) ... from the same - I am going to read out from the same report that I have been reading up to now, in furtherance to the learned Judge's question.
"The APK is totally opposed to violence in any form and believes in missionary work amongst Blacks, whom they view with their patronising paternalistic outlook."
Does that correctly describe the policy of your church?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman, but I am sure that wasn't written by somebody from the AP Kerk, was it?

GEORGE BIZOS: I am asking whether you agree with it or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not aware of that. I am not aware of that ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you able to deny that this is the attitude of your church?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not able to comment, because I have no detail ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: You are a member of this ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have no deals whatsoever about their missionary activities, no deals, no details.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Derby-Lewis, I think this is a legitimate question, because it flows from what you said to me that your church would have approved the killing of Chris Hani.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And I think this question is a legitimate one, in that they read you the stance, what appears to be the stance of the church, which seems to contradict what you say.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And I think you should apply your mind to that aspect.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am trying to do that, Mr Chairman, but that - that statement there, it was clearly produced not by somebody in the AP Kerk, and the question was whether I was aware of the AP Kerk having missionary ideals amongst Africans.  And my answer was I don't know. I am not aware of their missionary activities.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you refer us to any statement made by the founder of the church or anyone in authority of the church or anyone who is capable of interpreting the doctrine of the church which says that your church would have approved of your murdering Mr Hani in April 1993?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, without the necessary research facilities I find that it impossible to answer at this stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you tell the learned Judge that your church would approve of it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because, Mr Chairman, I have subsequently discussed it with ministers of religion and not have at any stage received any criticism from them, on the contrary, I have had maximum support from them.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now when you say prior to the action, they may be you know, they may be ministers of religion who are very forgiving and maybe they want to comfort you, but prior to your - prior to your doing this, did your church or anybody in your church suggest that a solution for South Africa's problems was killing people like Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: No.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Excuse me, Mr Chairman, can I just ask my learned friend a question?  Thank you, Mr Chairman. Procedural query which I have, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, you asked me who - what was the source of the matter that I - the information about your church came.  There is a report, partly based on research, and partly based on interviews, by the Independent Board of Inquiry on the Rightwing Organisations.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I have been in prison four and a half years, I don't even know the existence of that body mentioned.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: So I can't comment on it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, anyway ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The validity.

GEORGE BIZOS: You can't deny that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But I can't confirm that either.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes. Have you studied Catholicism or Protestantism or their views on who may be branded the anti-Christ, Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I have been too busy with politics.

GEORGE BIZOS: And yet you performed this act for religious reasons.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already explained the justification which I sought.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you read out the second objective, please?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Certainly, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: On 11, E11.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's number two, Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.
"To destroy the military leader
		of Umkhonto weSizwe, who, by his own acknowledgements were responsible for the cold-blooded murders of elderly Whites, women and children and attacks on them and on our security force personnel."

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes. Did you discuss this with anybody, your party, your church or anybody else?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have already said I haven't, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you never advanced that as any reason to any of the people - you didn't seek anybody's opinion in relation to this?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.  As a leader of the party I ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you read the next one, please?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Certainly, Mr Chairman, item number three, I repeat again
"To focus attention on the fact that the future of my people was being betrayed through concocted forums such as the Multi-party Forum and that we were aware of those plans and that we would oppose them with everything in our power."

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  You didn't seek anybody's advice whether this was a valid reason or not, before you committed the murder?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I didn't have to, Mr Chairman, there were sufficient statements ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: And in the fourth, the fourth paragraph?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Number four
"To focus attention on the fact that my people are entitled to a territory of their own in Southern Africa, wherever it may be, but that this is indisputable."

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now at the time that this murder was committed there were negotiations at Codesa.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Which we were not a part of, Mr Chairman, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Some of the time you were and some of the time you were not.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: At the time that this occurred we were not, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: When was your party party to the negotiations at Codesa and when was it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't remember the exact dates. I'm sorry.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did they take part in Codesa before this?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did they take part in Codesa after this?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My details on... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: For a person - I'm sorry. For a person who was so vitally concerned for the future of the country, you seem to have taken very little notice of the political process that was taking place at the time?