Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-25

CHAIRPERSON: We have wasted so much time waiting for interested parties and victims, who we were told, were on their way from Kimberley.  I think we have allowed them enough time to reach this venue and we cannot allow this state of affairs to continue indefinitely. I think we should commence our proceedings.
	I would like to place on record that in future when notices are sent out to names on record, and, thereafter, one of the lawyers, my colleagues would like to say something before commencing. I don't know whether that would be Adv Visser or it will be Prof De Koker, but if we can place ourselves on record, please.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Tshulanku, you appear for the applicants?

MR TSHULANKU: I appear for both applicants, Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I represent two of the victims, the first one is a Mr Bethanie - I will spell it for the record: B-E-T-H-A-N-I-E - and Ms A Kgoro - I will spell it for the record: K-G-O-R-O.  Mr Chairman, there is also an indication that I may also receive instructions from certain victims that apparently are still on their way from Kimberley, but we will clarify that matter at a later stage, Mr Chairman.  Thank you.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Louis de Koker and Adv Jean Nel, appearing on behalf of Adv Jean Nel and for a matter in limine, also Mr Adriano Cassandro.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this person one of the victims?

PROF DE KOKER: He is one of the victims, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell the name?

PROF DE KOKER: Adriano - A-D-R-I-A-N-0 - and his surname Cassandro - C-A-S-S-A-N-D-R-O.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: May it please you Mr Chairman and honourable members of the Committee. I appear instructed by Wagner & Muller and Du Plessis, my name is Louis Visser.  We appear for certain interested parties, to wit Insp C N Erasmus, Sgt P N Kapanda, Supt G A Rossouw, Capt G S Starke, Lieut-Col P J van der Colff.

CHAIRPERSON: How do they figure in this application?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, these people, all of them were - are implicated on papers which have been circulated at the last hearing of the Committee in March. They have also received notifications that they are implicated persons and as such they have an interest in terms of the Act and are entitled to be here. I may add that on behalf of these persons, we oppose the applications, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me how they are implicated?

MR VISSER: They are implicated in a sense that it is alleged that they threatened, assaulted and generally made themselves guilty of defeating the ends of justice by causing two allegedly innocent persons to be brought to trial before Munnik, J, his Lordship, Mr Justice Munnik and two assessors, and which resulted in the two persons mentioned to be found guilty and to be sentenced.  The allegation is by necessary implication, at least, that that was a defeating the ends of justice.  Those two persons, Mr Chairman, you will hear their names mentioned, we think, again and again, during these proceedings, were a person by the name of ..

CHAIRPERSON: Please spell it.

MR VISSER: It is, I will spell it immediately, it is spelt N-K-O-H-L-A, first names Mkosinati Darlington.  The other was Mbaqa - M-B-A-Q-A, Moses Sipho. If I may perhaps to enlighten the Committee.  On the occasion of March, this year, when we were given notice for the first time or rather when our clients were given notice for the first time, at that stage Mr Mkosinati Nkhohla was also an applicant, and if you have been favoured with copies of the documentation which was then circulated, Mr Chairman, you will have seen a document with a cover page which looks like this.  It said
"Amnesty application of Kulekane Lawrence Mbatha, Walter Smiles and Darlington Mkosinati Nkhohla."
We are now informed, Mr Chairman, that Mr Mbawa, the other person who was also convicted in the criminal trial, has also filed an application for amnesty. We wish to mention here, because we consider it to be important, that we have not seen, nor have we been provided with a copy of his application and therefore we cannot at this stage speculate as to whether his evidence may or may not take the matter of the present applicants any further.  But what we do suggest at the present time, Mr Chairman, is that first of all, it appears, that none of our colleagues sitting at the table here today, have been provided by the Amnesty Committee with the full documentation.  I may mention for purposes of identification that in March we received 179 pages.  Allow me just to make sure that I am not stating the incorrect number. I believe it was 175 pages - 179.  Last week, Mr Chairman ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: 179 pages related to an application by who?

MR VISSER: Now that related to the one which I have just referred you to, relating to Mbatha, Smiles and Nkohla.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Last week you may recall that we came to see you at the Pretoria City Hall to basically bring a message from Prof De Koker which we delivered to you, and at that time we received, I think, at that time, we received further documentation, consisting of some 93 pages.  Now what that consists of, Mr Chairman, in essence, is evidence which was given on the 11th to the 13th of June 1996 before the Gross Violations of Human Rights Committee, sitting at Kimberley.  The evidence given there was evidence by inter alia, the two applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: The present two applicants?

MR VISSER: That is affirmative, Mr Chairman.  Plus Mr Chairman, the State witness who was a single witness as to the event at the trial before Judge Munnik, who was a person by the name of Themba Nkosi Ngquele - and that is spelt N-G-Q-U-E-L-E, Mbaqa also gave evidence and others, Mr Chairman, but the important thing is that that bundle of documents also contain certain statements which were taken from these witnesses by your specially trained statement-takers of the investigation unit. And, Mr Chairman, the point I am getting at, is simply this.  If you read those last 90 odd pages, Mr Chairman, it is quite clear that what appears from that, are material disputes arising among these witnesses, and disputes arising in the evidence of the witnesses where they contradict themselves as well.
	That being so, there are two points which we believe we should inform the Committee of.  The one is this ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue, may I just clear this up. Mr Mpshe, why is it that at present there are only two applicants when on a previous occasion a man called Mbaqa had also applied?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that is correct.  On a previous occasion there were three applicants.  The two present applicants as well as another one, Nkhohla, Mkosinati Nkhohla.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, wasn't it Mbaqa?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, Mr Chairman, Nkhohla.

CHAIRPERSON: N-K-H-O-H-L-A?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That's correct, there were only three applicants. Mr Chairman, after this matter has been postponed, I perused all the applicants to enrol this matter for this particular hearing.  Then when reading the application I realised that Nkhohla should not have been enrolled in the first instance, because he was the (indistinct), and in terms of our Act he did not come to a hearing. That type of application can be dealt with in chambers.  That is why he is not here today and he is not before this Committee.  If the Chair would like me to respond to what my learned friend has said on the three points.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he hasn't finished what he wishes to say first.  Let me say it.  Let him put on record the reason why this man Nkhohla is not here, he has not been notified of the proceedings.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He has been notified as an interested person.

CHAIRPERSON: Today?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Today, and he is going to be present.

CHAIRPERSON: Not as an applicant but as an interested person?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As an interested person, Mr Chairperson.