Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR ROUSSOUW: Very well.  In your statement you also mention that before the shooting incident you were not informed about what would happen, you do mention that you had a suspicion that he was going to be shot.  Now my question is, can you remember that Mr McCarter told you before the shooting incident that this person would be shot?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I don't want to admit or deny it, I cannot say.  It might be that he told me beforehand but I cannot remember.

MR MALAN: I really don't know if this is going if this is going take this any further.  You said explicitly and you say it under oath and you also read this, but you don't qualify it.  You were sitting in the park the whole day, you tried to find out what was going on but you couldn't find out.  You've read the statement to us under oath but now you do not want to confirm what you're written under oath as well as testified under oath.  What value can we attach to your evidence or what kind of value?  Nevermind.
	Mr Roussouw, please continue.

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Bosch, you also heard the evidence that - this is now by Mr McCarter, that Spyker Mhieza was not present when this operation was launched, and you said in your statement that according to your memory he was indeed there.  Is that your recollection?

I D BOSCH: When I made the statement Chairperson, it was indeed my recollection but I might be wrong.

MR MALAN: What is your recollection now?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, as I heard the people speaking this morning, Mr McCarter that is, it creates the idea that I was in the bus, Rosslee was in the bus, McCarter was in the bus, Wasserman was in the bus and something tells me that there were also two black members.  I said three but then I'm making a mistake.

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the applicant's application.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUSSOUW

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Bosch, your evidence on page 13 of your application which you also repeated today, the fact that you drove behind Wasserman towards this shooting range, I'm putting it to you this is incorrect, Wasserman and Taylor arrived at the shooting range after you guys were there already.

I D BOSCH: That is possible, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You also said that material, a cloth was pulled over Bhila's head there at the precipice.  My information is that this hood was already placed on his head in the car and that his hands were cuffed behind his back and that he was taken in that condition towards the precipice and it was only after he was killed that the hood was removed from his head as well as the cuffs, what do you say about that?

I D BOSCH: I remember the hood, I remember the cuffs but I do not know when it was put on his hands.  I remember the cuffs were taken off just before he was thrown off the cliff.

MR VISSER: That concludes my questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Bosch, this incident took place about 12 years ago, is it possible that in your memory there might be a few gaps with regards to what had happened during these incidents?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.  Like I've read before I would like to forget these things, I don't want to have them in my thoughts anymore.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You made no specific notes which you could then look at later in order to help you recollect what had happened?

I D BOSCH: No, I made no notes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I'm asking you specifically because in your statement you referred to Spyker Mhieza and Mgade and insofar as it concerns Sergeant Mgade I understand your evidence now that you could have been incorrect and it's quite possible that he was not present at all.

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You also have heard when my learned colleague, Mr Prior and Hugo referred to travelling documents which makes it quite clear that Mgade was not together with the team and he did not receive and S&T, so we accept the possibilities or the probabilities are that he was in fact not present.

I D BOSCH: I accept that.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: With regards to my other client, and maybe I can just put it this way, go one back, I received instructions from Mr Mgade and his instructions are that he was not involved in this incident at all and he was not present at all.

I D BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: With regards to Mr Mhieza, the man who went by the nickname of Spyker, is it so that at one point there was another person stationed at Vlakplaas with the nickname Spyker?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And this Mr Mhieza or Spyker, where was he stationed?

I D BOSCH: This Spyker was at the Durban Branch, he was stationed there.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Do I understand your evidence correctly today, that with regards to his presence there is also a vagueness in your memory, you could be making a mistake with regards to his presence?

I D BOSCH: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Bosch, you also heard the evidence of Mr McCarter with regard to the amount of influence on a political level which you as members of Security Branch experienced.  I'm using "influence" in the wider sense of the word, you can also say indoctrination.  Was it also your personal experience?

I D BOSCH: Yes, we were exposed to daily and weekly reviews which we had to read.  ...(transcriber's own translation)

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Is it also your evidence that you were yourself influenced by all of this?

I D BOSCH: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: With regard to the operation itself, the Bhila incident, just a few questions.  In the first place, in your mind who would you say was in complete control of everything that happened there?

I D BOSCH: Colonel Taylor.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: At that specific stage did you feel that this whole operation and that which transpired there, and again I use the word "operation" in the wider sense of the word, that this was normal, in line with your daily duties?

I D BOSCH: Yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you also feel that you could question these instructions?

I D BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And according to your observations during this incident, did you have the impression that anybody was in the position to question these instructions?

I D BOSCH: Not according to myself, Mr Chairperson.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: With regard to ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: May I just ask you, to which instructions are you referring?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I refer to the instructions to kill Bhila.  I will deal with in it a bit more detail just now.
	It's common cause that you were not present when McCarter received these instructions?

I D BOSCH: That's correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And today, and you were also asked a few questions by Mr Malan, do you say that it's possible that there whilst you were at the shooting range which is now called a municipal park, whilst you were sitting there, is it possible that a discussion was then held with regards to what would happen to this man and what his identity is?

I D BOSCH: That's quite possible but I cannot say I'm 100% sure about when they told me all of this.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: If one tries to be realistic I'm sure you wouldn't have sat there the whole day and  not have asked "why are we sitting here, who is this person".

I D BOSCH: They did tell me that he was a member of the ANC and he was a trained member and he was arrested.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Now with regards to your version about what had happened ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry that I'm interrupting you again.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR MALAN: On what basis can you say with so much certainty that they would have told you this is a trained ANC terrorist?  You can remember that really specifically, you keep confirming it but you can't remember anything else, can you remember who told you that?