Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

MR VON LIERES: Mr Chairperson, with your permission, the name is Von Lieres, I am instructed by the Chief of the Defence Force and I appear on his behalf.  Dr Boraine has asked that he be available this afternoon for questions.
 As you know he attends here at the request of the Commission, he is not under subpoena and I was wondering whether General Meiring's position could possibly be finalised at this stage.  If you intend to ask him any questions, could there possibly be an indication when you wish to ask those questions, because I am instructed that he is not available tomorrow and he would like to assist you as far as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Von Lieres, can I please thank General Joubert first before you make any submissions.  General Joubert, it remains for me to thank you for having made yourself available and bring your legal representative as well.  I am of the view that you can now be excused and again thank you very much for having
come.  You are then excused.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Since I have heard what you said Adv Von Lieres, I was of the view that General Geldenhuys was going to be called next.  Maybe we need to take a short adjournment for us to consider the position also influenced by what you are saying.
 We will adjourn until half past, in other words it will be a ten minute adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Can we arrange to start in the interest of time, thank you.  General Geldenhuys is going to be the next witness.
 I am going to ask Commissioner Lyster to swear you in.  Let me just say that we appreciate and we are thankful that you have been very patient here and you have stayed for as long as you have.  I am just sorry that the programme didn't work out in the way we would have liked it and your legal representatives have indicated also the problems you might have with time, so we are hopeful that we will finish soon enough for you to be able to take the flight.

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: (sworn states)

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much.  Mr Goosen?

MR COETZEE: General Geldenhuys would prefer to testify in
Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee, I am sure you are an old head now, you already know that will be his pleasure and we will be willingly obliging. Does the General have a statement, an opening statement?

MR COETZEE: There is not opening statement, we have been subpoenaed here and we are here and he is prepared to answer questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Adv Goosen?

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.  General Geldenhuys, I understood from the submission made by General Viljoen earlier today that in the preparation of that submission, you were consulted and in essence the submission reflects the views of the former Chiefs of the South African Defence Force.  Do I take it then that you would agree with the contents of that submission?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: That is generally correct.

MR GOOSEN: When you say generally correct, does that imply that there are perhaps certain aspects of that submission with which you do not agree?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairman, I can't think of anything with which I don't agree, but the former Chiefs of the Defence Force, the one who served before me, three to five years, I was there for five years, so the other one was there for three, the other one was also three to five years, it covers a long period, we were responsible for the Defence Force over a long period and in my case it goes as far back as seven to twelve years ago and I have got to rely on my memory.
 I can't say that if there was to be a debate, that there would not be disagreement about some points.  Broadly speaking I associate myself with this submission.

MR GOOSEN: You, in your amnesty application, General Geldenhuys, you deal at some length with the context as background to the and as a motivation for the particular acts for which you apply for amnesty.
 You set out in particular that the situation inside the country worsened considerably in the period 1980 through to 1985, but in particular a period from 1984/1985 onwards, that the revolutionary climate inside the country was such that the South African Defence Force in conjunction with the South African Police, had to consider very seriously the adoption of as it were, different and more particular strategies to deal with that revolutionary onslaught, is that correct?

JOHANNES JAKOBUS GELDENHUYS: Mr Chairman, I am a bit taken aback.  The past two weeks I have been surprised by General Joubert, that his application for amnesty today would be the subject for a hearing.  I am taken aback by this because my legal representatives, myself and General Liebenberg directed a request at the Amnesty Committee to in the person of Judge Mall, and Wilson, for an interview which they granted to us because our legal representatives felt that because of the questions put to their clients, they wanted clarity about the Amnesty Committee's procedures, methods and so forth.
 During that interview with these two Judges of the Amnesty Committee, the confidentiality of amnesty applications was discussed and we got a firm undertaking from the two Judges that if anything should leak from these amnesty applications, it would not be from them.
 I am surprised to find that I am being questioned about this and that it has been made public and it also was not set out with the documents in this Section 29 application, and I was not asked about it and I was not questioned about it.

MR GOOSEN: General Geldenhuys, I am merely indicating to you that in ... (intervention)

MR COETZEE: With all due respect, General Geldenhuys has asked for an explanation.  I think he is entitled to an explanation and I don't know if the panel can assist in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were trying to explain the nature of the question that you are asking and why you were asking it and  I think you should do so.

MR GOOSEN: That is what I thought I was doing as well, Mr Chairperson, if you would allow me to continue, thank you.

MR COETZEE: I realise there is limited time and I am going to speak as quickly as possible and I don't want to delay the proceedings.
 General Geldenhuys' problem is that he has not prepared ln the contents of any application submitted.  He said he was given the guarantee that nothing, it would remain with the Amnesty Committee and he is objecting to being cross-examined on any basis relating to any application that might have been submitted at the Amnesty Committee.  That is his problem and that is the objection that he is raising.  Explaining the question is not going to help.

CHAIRPERSON: I am exasperated at that sort of request that it should be made to us.  We are not the Amnesty Committee, I cannot see in what way we can be expected to give a guarantee as to what the Amnesty Committee is going to be doing by the Human Rights Violations Committee sitting as such. And we are hearing evidence in terms of what we perceive to be our mandate and the procedures in which we gather information in relation thereto.
 Mr Goosen, can you please explain the basis on which you are asking the question?