Human Rights Violation Hearings — Empangeni — 1996-11-04

WITNESS: My husband went to open the door for them.  I was left in the bedroom and I was sleeping.  He spoke with them and I could hear him opening my child's bedroom and took out blankets and gave them to those two gentlemen and I asked him as to what was happening and who were the people he was talking to.  He said it was Si and Vusi, and we slept.  In the morning there was a clock that always rings because there was a plank factory and this siren would sound at 4.30 in the morning and I woke up to prepare my husband's lunch to take it with to work.  Then I decided otherwise and I told myself that as soon as he goes to have his bath I will prepare his meal.  Just as I was going back into the bed I could hear some sounds from outside, as if a person was running in the yard and I peeped through the window, but I did not open the curtain.  I just peeped through without disturbing the curtain and I saw a white man facing the front.  I called my husband over and I told him that there was somebody who was standing outside.  He took out his gun and he wanted to shoot at the man and I admonished him and told him not to do that.  Then we got down on the ground.  At that stage we heard some gunfire and somebody was screaming outside and saying we should open up, they were the police.  As we were still listening to that, we heard gunfire in the second room.  This went on for quite some time and at that time we were hiding ourselves inside the house.  We cuddled in a certain corner.  After the gunfire got quiet - I think it was about 30 minutes after the gunfire had continued, as we were staying - were sitting there, I heard Simon Msweli screaming that he should be given a blanket because he was getting cold.  My husband asked as to where the police  were.  He said he had killed three of the policemen and at that time I felt very scared, because I didn't know what to do.  My husband opened up a small window and took out a pink blanket and threw it outside.  I also wanted to go out and see what was happening and they said I should not go out because the police were surrounding the house and I opened the kids' bedrooms and I wanted to check on my children.  My son used to lock himself inside whenever he went to sleep in his bedroom and when I looked for the key and I tried to open up my son was no longer there and the window was broken.  I did not know whether he was injured or he ran away or what happened to him, but he was not there and I ran into the kitchen.  My husband and I at the time were still alive and we decided that we should run away and he said we should not run away.  I felt a knot in my tummy and I decided that I was going and he said I should not go, but I nevertheless went to our neighbour's place.  I had a brother - a decent brother - who was staying there, and I realised that I should try and get in whilst it was still early because the police were going to get me there whilst still knocking, and I decided to go to Msweli's place, which is quite a distance from my place.  As I was in the street I was very confused.  I tried to turn back and I came across police cars.  They asked me to where the Mthethwa house was.  I decided to go into the Buthelezi family's house, but I was so confused I didn't know what to do.  I decided that I should go to my elder brother's place to look for my son, but he was not there.  I went to Ngubane's place and my elder brother took me half way.  When we reached my place I saw the Casspir in my yard and it was demolishing my house.  We went away to look for my son and we were told that my son was at a certain house and we got into my other neighbour's house and we decided at that point to go and tell the police not to demolish my house, because that was all I had at that time.  I asked a policeman to accompany me and he asked me as to what I was there and I said I said I was Mthethwa's wife.  He asked me as to where I was at the time they were fighting.  I told them that I was at another place and he said to me I was still going to tell him the truth as to what my relationship was with Mthethwa and where was I at the time of the fighting, and there was another white elderly policeman who also asked me as to what I was there, was I a relative or what.  I told him that I am a daughter-in-law there.  He asked me where I was at the time of the fight.  I told him that I was at a neighbour's place and he asked me as to why I had escaped.  I told them that I had a problem with transport.  I could not reach home because the taxis were finished at that time and my husband at times wouldn't come home and I would have to sleep at nearby places.  Then he asked me as to how I realised as to whether my husband would not be coming home the particular day.  I explained to him that I usually prepared food for him and whenever I came back and came across the food uneaten I would know that my husband had not come home.  As I was standing there, two policemen came and they said they wanted to see me.  I went along with them and this elderly white policeman said to me I should speak the truth because I was going to be arrested.  They asked me as to where I had slept the previous day.  I said I had slept at Mthiyane's place and he sent to policemen to go and investigate as to whether I was telling the truth that I had slept at Mthiyane's place.  The other one asked me, "What do you do with the dishes after having your supper?"  I told him that we put the dishes in a plastic dish and we wash them the following morning.  We went home.  He said I should take out the plastic dish we use to wash our dishes and he said I should take out three plates.  He counted the three plates.  When I got in there I found that there was blood in the house and I thought probably my husband had been injured and he had been taken to the hospital and after they had left I would go see my husband at the hospital.  And this elderly white policeman directed me to stand far from the scene and when the person from the Mthethwa family came they asked him whether I was telling the truth that at times I would sleep at his place.  He said yes, that was correct, and they left him when they realised that I was speaking the truth.  I still wanted to get into my house and see what happened in the house and they refused me permission to get into my own house.

KHOZA MGOJO:  During the time that all this was happening, where was your husband?

WITNESS:   I could not see my husband and they did not tell me as to where he was at that time.

KHOZA MGOJO:  What did you do thereafter?

WITNESS:   I was told that I should go back to where I had slept the previous night and I went back.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Let's just cut the story short.  I'll help you with the questions so that we get to the point.  Was your husband a member of the ANC, as well COSATU?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was a shop steward at work.

KHOZA MGOJO:  When all these things happened did the police used to frequent your place?

WITNESS:   Yes, they came once and the second time, that's when they shot the house and they were looking for Simon Msweli.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Was he ever arrested, your husband?

WITNESS:   No, he was never ever arrested.

KHOZA MGOJO:  There are certain things that I wanted to put straight.  I just want to straighten this record.  I want you to clarify on certain aspects.   He never got arrested and he was never tortured.  Now, the first time, what did they say they wanted?

WITNESS:   The first time they said they wanted Simon Msweli.  They had been told that this was Simon Msweli's refuge, but they never said as to why they wanted him, and the second time was when they caused a commotion.  They never spoke to anyone, they just opened gunfire.

KHOZA MGOJO:  At the time this took place, what was happening?  Was there any disturbances or were there any faction fights between the IFP and the ANC?