Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

MR DEHAL: And then on page 107 you continue with your political objectives sought to be achieved by all of these acts.  Do you mind reading that paragraph?
MR McBRIDE
	"All the operations detailed above, were carried out in accordance with the aims and the objectives of the African National Congress.  As a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, my objective was the furtherance of the armed struggle against the apartheid State, with the intention of overthrowing the State and replacing it with a democratic one.  All my actions were geared towards the undermining and weakening of the State, so that it would be forced into a peaceful negotiated settlement with the ANC and other liberation movements."

MR DEHAL: If again, if now you will deal with the justification for regarding such acts operations associated with a political objective, you talk of the operations being detailed in this application for amnesty, as having a political motive, carried out within the context of the liberation struggle, aimed at our political opponent and committed under the orders of your Commanders and with the approval of the organisation, the ANC, do you see that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I see that.

MR DEHAL: Confirm that as correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Then on page 108 if you will please go slowly, because the Interpreters are having some difficulties, start on the top with "it was accepted both during the trial ..."
R McBRIDE
	"It was accepted both during the trial and later during the hearing held in terms of the Indemnity Act, that the motives for my involvement in all operations for which I was charged, were political, not personal.  At trial I was charged and convicted of attempting to overthrow or endanger State authority in the Republic and to achieve, bring about or promote constitutional, political, industrial and or economic change in the Republic.  The Why Not car bomb operation was carried out on the 14th of June 1986, during a period of extreme political upheaval in South Africa, which had culminated in the declaration of a nation wide state of emergency on June the 12th.  Among other things, the declaration of the state of emergency was an acknowledgement by the then government of the extent of the turmoil in the country.   State of emergency granted unlimited powers to the Security Forces and indemnity from prosecution for acts carried out during this period.  The operation also took place within the context of the ANC's organised political uprising against the minority government of the day.  Within this, it is important to look at the following factors - one year previously to the day, the Security Forces had raided Gaberone in Botswana, killing 12 people, two Botswana citizens, one Somalian, one six year old child from Lesotho and eight South Africans.  Of the South Africans, eight were ANC members, none of them were MK combatants.  The addition of the Setchaba following this attack, the editorial stated the following - the struggle of the people of South Africa will be intensified at all costs.  The time has come when we should avenge our martyrs.  In addition the 1985 conference of the ANC held in Kabwe had decided that the distinction between soft and hard targets should disappear.  An article from Setchaba at the time, outlines some of the reasoning behind this."

MR DEHAL: And then you quote an excerpt from that article?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Can I just confer with my lawyer at this stage?

MR DEHAL: Sorry.   Mr McBride, if you will continue.
MR McBRIDE
	"The ANC conference which took the form of a Council of War ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what you are reading now is a quotation from the Setchaba?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Setchaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  If you can just start again.
MR McBRIDE
	"This ANC conference which took the form of a Council of War, decided that a distinction between hard and soft targets should disappear.   The attack on South African refugees in Botswana by the racist Forces, just before the conference, emphasised the need for our movement to bleed the enemy.  On the same theme, the then President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo stated the following in an interview - I will summarise the position taken by the conference in these terms - the struggle must be intensified at all costs.   
	Over the past nine to ten months at least, at the very least, there have been many soft targets hit by the enemy, nearly 500 people had died during that period.  That works out to about 50 per month, massacred, shot down, killed secretly.  All those were very, very soft targets.  They belong to the sphere of the intensification of the struggle.  The distinction between soft and hard targets is going to disappear in an intensified confrontation, in an escalating conflict.   
	The detonation of a car bomb outside the Why Not bar took place within this context, both as a commemoration for a brutal attack on civilians in Gaberone one year previously and the commemoration of the 16th of June 1976 when hundreds of innocent school children were killed by the Security Forces."

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, on page 111 you deal with the sentence imposed on you at the trial.  Is it correct that arising from many of the acts, sorry is it correct that arising from many of the acts, operations, carried out, for which you were tried, three death sentences were imposed on you, which were later commuted to life?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: You actually had gone off to what was commonly known as Death Row in which you languished for quite some time?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: In September 1992, you were released in terms of the Record of Understanding reached between the ANC and the then government, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: This agreement was reached to expedite the release of remaining political prisoners, to enable political negotiations to proceed without any impediment?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is right, yes.

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, if I may take you back to Exhibit G, I see that in paragraph 18 you made some general submissions.  Will you deal with those?