Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I believe that he was telling me all truth about what was written there, because he is my Comrade.  He wouldn't lie to me.

MR PRIOR: He was your Comrade.  He was present with you at your base for some of this time, not so?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR PRIOR: He even did an operation with you?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I once went with him to an operation.

MR PRIOR: So he would have had personal knowledge of some of the facts in here?  Because he was present at your base, correct?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I think he only knew about one operation where he accompanied me.

MR PRIOR: No further questions, Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Mr Chairman, that is Mr Makoala's testimony.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I notice it is 12h45.  I intend calling members of, or a member of Mr Tsemane's family.  I have made contact with Mr Schroeder's family.  I understand the brother-in-law will be coming to see me shortly.  Would this be an opportune time to take the lunch adjournment now, and then to reconvene possibly at 13h30.

CHAIRPERSON: And you'll also have the necessary police and other evidence, the medical evidence?

MR PRIOR: I'll be, I'll endeavour to have that, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And we have photographs of pointings out, but not were of what was pointed out, and really they are very little value without someone giving evidence as to what they in fact show, and the post mortem report, as you well know, are nearly illegible, and it may well be of some importance to have medical evidence as to the ...

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will adjourn now till 13h30.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start, I would like to make a few remarks.  We have been given a copy of a statement. Apparently for the purposes of ensuring that it is delivered directly to Mr Dullah Omar, the Minister of Justice.  I would like to explain that we have no direct contact with the Minister and no method of ensuring direct delivery to him, and I would suggest that those people who wish to make contact with him, do so through the Department of Justice itself.  I hope they understand what I'm saying in this regard and we shall however endeavour to bring it to the attention of interested parties.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I wish to call Mr Oelofse regarding the photographs which appear from page 17 of bundle "B", 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, and I hand up to the Committee a statement of Mr Oelofse, in which he just incorporates, encapsulates the pointings out in an affidavit and may that affidavit be marked "C".  Mr Oelofse wishes to give evidence in Afrikaans.

MR LAX: That's fine.  Would you please rise Mr Oelofse.

MR OELOFSE: (duly sworn in states)

MR PRIOR: Mr Oelofse is it correct that you are in service of the South African Police Force?

MR OELOFSE: I'm at the Crime Information Service at Aliwal North, that's correct.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that during October 1995 you were entrusted with the investigation into this matter?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: On the 10th of October 1995 at 07h30 in the morning you and Mr Gomada from the former Transkei Police Force as well as Sergeant Adoons and Mrs Dlephu went to the Sterkspruit side of the Lady Grey Sterkspruit Road in order to point out certain points.

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: I'm now referring, did you organise that an air photo should be taken of the scene?

MR OELOFSE: Yes, I did.

MR PRIOR: Maybe we can go back to the air photo at a later stage.  If you turn to page 18, is that Mrs Dlephu who stands there?

MR OELOFSE: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Which point is she showing there?

MR OELOFSE: She's pointing out where the vehicle in which she was driving and the other vehicle, the Telkom vehicle, their position, as well as the position of the attackers when they shot at them.  That's the shooting took place.

MR PRIOR: And Mrs Dlephu, was the one of the teachers in the bakkie who was then heisted, or hijacked?  If you turn to page 19, that's photo 3, photograph 3 that's Sergeant Adoons and the other police officer, Mr Gomada?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct yes.

MR PRIOR: And what are they referring to there?  Which point are they showing?

MR OELOFSE: That's the point where Mr Schroeder's body on the tarmac was found.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct, in the backdrop you see a little bridge there, and in evidence the previous referred to that bridge, is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: And then page 20.  The place where the two gentlemen are standing, now that's off the bridge, is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: Yes, that's in the donga underneath the bridge.

MR PRIOR: And what are they pointing out there?

MR OELOFSE: That is where the bakkie and the bodies of Mr Tsemane and Mrs Brummer was found.

MR PRIOR: And that corresponds with the photographs of the bakkie which we can see on page 23 and page 24?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: And that's in bundle "B".  Then page 21, is that where, the point where Sergeant Gomada and Adoons are standing, is that where Mr Schroeder was lying, but from the Lady Grey side?

MR OELOFSE: No, that's the position where the first attack initially took place and where the vehicle came to a standstill.

MR PRIOR: In other words that was the bakkie Mr Schroeder was driving?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: I'm now coming to the aerial photograph, and I'm going to ask Mr Oelofse to identify photographs 18, 19, 20, 21, that is the pointings out.  May I possibly, unfortunately we have the original before us which was marked a short while ago.  Points A, B and C, but those points do not appear on the Committee's bundles.  I don't know whether we should mark them now, or maybe show the original around, possibly.
   Mr Oelofse I refer to the aerial photo which appears on page 17 of bundle "B" and that's photograph 1 in the original bundle.  In the foreground at the bottom of the page, that's where ...(indistinct) is situated, not true?

MR PRIOR: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: And if you go up with the road and you cross the bridge and that's toward Sterkspruit, is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: Now on the original photograph the point where Mr Schroeder's bakkie came to a standstill and the points which appear on page 21.  Where is that point on the aerial photograph?

MR OELOFSE: It would be point A. If you look at the photograph there are two vehicles and another vehicle a bit further on.  That's the relevant vehicle pointed out.

CHAIRPERSON: There appears to be white line going across the photograph.  Yes.  So is that vehicle parked on the road where Schroeder's car was found?

MR OELOFSE: That was a schematic representation of the point that was shown to me and then a vehicle was placed there.

MR PRIOR: Now the second point, must now the two, Mr Adoons and Gomada pointed out to you, that point which we find on page 19.  Where's that point on the aerial photograph?

MR OELOFSE: That's just above the, halfway through the photograph.  The beginning of the two white lines which indicate the rails next to the road.

MR PRIOR: The top part of that double barrier, or the bottom part?  I'm just not clear.

MR OELOFSE: It's at the bottom, bottom point.  It's on the right hand side, next to the road.

MR PRIOR: And then the third point which Mrs Dlephu pointed out to you, that's now where, where the teachers engaged the attackers.  That's point C, not true?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct yes.

MR PRIOR: And where does that, where can we find that point?

MR OELOFSE: If you look, if you look at point, go from point B and you follow the road towards Sterkspruit then the road makes a turn, and then there's holes next to the road.  That would be the position.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) the points marked for the Committee and my learned friends' attention.
   Mr Oelofse ...(intervention)