Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-10

MS MAYA:  Do you have any wish that you would like to tell us?

WITNESS:  Yes I do.  After I was discharged, the ANC told me to go to Mr M W Vabasa in Queenstown and make my claim.  I put my claim in 1993 February.  I have heard nothing from the lawyers.  Can the Commission get in contact with Mr Vabasa and see what is going on with my case?  A white man came to my place saying that he works for the government.  Mr Vabasa knows this white man, he is an investigator.  I would like the Commission to get in touch with this man and ask him what's going on.  Lastly, we need tombstones from the Commission.  Thank you.

MS MAYA: Thank you very much.  There is another request that you've made.  You say that you want us to investigate and then bring the perpetrators on the floor.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there, is there anyone who would like to ask questions?  Thank you sir.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 2 - 10 SEPTEMBER 1996

CASE NO: 8

TATISE WILLIAM NCAPAYI: TATISE WILLIAM NCAPAYI   Duly sworn states

MS MAYA: We are now going to call upon Mr Ncapayi.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MS MAYA: We greet you Mr Ncapayi.

WITNESS:  I greet you all.

MS MAYA:  In looking at your statement, you were born on the 9th.  Does that mean you were born in 1909?

WITNESS:  Yes that was during the war.

MS MAYA:  Were you born during the war?

WITNESS:  Yes that was the war for the Israelis which is known as the War of [indistinct].

MS MAYA:  Now I understand.  So on the day of the march you were there in that march here in Bisho.

WITNESS:  On the day of the march I was in Queenstown and Mr Chris Hani came to us and asked us to come to Bisho.  There were five men so we decided to come to Bisho and we saw four white men who were in Mr Gqozo's office and when we got into this office [intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please!  I'm now asking you to behave.

MS MAYA: Could you continue.

WITNESS:  So when we got there we asked for him and they said he had gone to Johannesburg so we decided to go back home.  Then the following month we, he told us we were going to come back to Bisho to join the march and we did exactly that and when we got to Bisho we found there was some fence that was there and it wasn't the fence of the march.  We had water with us so as to drink on our way.  It was for a time and at about 1 o'clock, not knowing what had actually happened, I still remember there was one young boy sitting next to me who was shot and there was a pregnant woman in front of me.  She was also shot and she fell on her stomach.  That was in Bisho.  Then I really can't tell what happened because I also found myself lying on my back, not knowing what had actually happened.  I had a shot on my leg and the person who assisted me, because we were very much afraid to go to places that could help us because there was a trap that people were looking for those people who had used their shots.  So we feared getting to hospitals.  Chris Hani took me to hospital and when I came out of hospital I realised that they had taken out the bullet from my leg.

MS MAYA:  Do you still remember the name of the hospital?

WITNESS:  No, I don't know, I really wouldn't lie, I don't know the name of the hospital.

MS MAYA:  How long were you in hospital?

WITNESS:  I was in hospital for a month.

MS MAYA:  And after the bullet was taken out, you were in hospital for a month and then you went home.

WITNESS:  Yes I went back to Queenstown.  We were even scared to get to the Queenstown hospitals because white men were looking for people who had bullet wounds and then they would identify that person as a person who has been there in the march.

MS MAYA:  Did your leg heal completely?

WITNESS:  Yes in some way I got healed but when it is windy and when it is overcast I feel some pain on my leg.

MS MAYA:  I'm sure you have a wish or a request to give to this Commission.  What could it be?

WITNESS:  I would like to get some medical treatment for my leg.  That is the only request I have.

MS MAYA:  Do you perhaps have any claim that you put in with any lawyers?

WITNESS:  No I really wouldn't tell lies.  I didn't go to any lawyers.

MS MAYA:  Is that the only explanation you have to give to this Commission?

WITNESS:  Yes that's all.

MS MAYA: We thank you and now hand you over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ncapayi.  Is there anyone who would like to ask questions?  Over to you Reverend Bongani Finca.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: Thank you Your Grace.  Mr Ncapayi, you have told us some further detail that we are getting for the first time that the hospital that you went to, were looking for the victims that have bullet wounds and they would identify that person with the march.  The details we got yesterday was that all the hospitals here within the Ciskei were not accepting the victims of the Bisho massacre and you were coming outside Ciskei and I'm surprised that even in Queenstown all these things were happening.  Were all these things happening even there outside?

WITNESS:  I don't hear you.  Can I start afresh.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN:  Now what I would like to know is, have I heard you clearly that you say you could not get to hospital because if you had a bullet wound you would be identified as one of the Bisho massacre's marchers?

WITNESS:  Yes that's exactly what was happening.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN:  Do you perhaps know the name of the hospital where Chris Hani took you to?  Was it here in East London or in Ciskei or was it in Queenstown?

WITNESS:  No it was here.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: I didn't go to any hospital in Queenstown because I was afraid.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN:  What were you afraid of?

WITNESS:  They had stated that all those who had been shot were going to be identified.  The people who said this are the whites that belong to Gqozo.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN:  My second question is you look [indistinct] what actually lead you to join this march on the day?

WITNESS:  The reason for my presence there was that I was determined because I had been chosen as a minister to go and lead the people so I decided to go and join the fight and I accepted the challenge.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: There is an opinion that what happened on that day was mainly for the youth.  The elderly people had not joined that.  What is your opinion on this?

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: ---  No, no one ever told us that the elderly people should not join the march because we were also in the struggle.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: We thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please!

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 2 - 10 SEPTEMBER 1996

CASE NO: 9

MS MAYA: We are now going to ask Lungisile Robert Cotani to come forward.
LUNGISILE ROBERT COTANI   Duly sworn states

MS MAYA: I greet you Lungisile.  You were also here on the day of the march, is that so?

MS MAYA: ---  Yes it's like that.

MS MAYA:  And then how did you get injured and at what stage did you get injured?  Could you explain?