Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DR GOOSEN: Threatened him with what, with his life or to attack him, to take his car, what threat was this?

DR GOOSEN: It doesn't matter we will get to that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's material.  Can't you put to him what he threatened the other person with?

MR VAN ZYL: Then you threatened him and now you will expose him because according to you he now knew about everything that was going on.  When you did not get your way you threatened him and said that you would involve him in everything.

DR GOOSEN: No, Mr Chairman, the discussion went as follows, and let us start with it where we should in order to see the whole thing in perspective and I am sorry that I have to take more time.  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, can I get it clear?  Are you saying that he actually blackmailed him or endeavoured to blackmail him by exposing him of everything that he had ...[intervention]

MR VAN ZYL: That is the threat and the implications thereof.
 And then General Knobel said to you: "In that case I will not speak to you any further, please leave my office".

DR GOOSEN: Mr Chairman, the last statement is definitely not true.  We definitely parted on terms of -I wasn't satisfied with the meeting but we were definitely not, I wasn't chased out of his office and he said if there still is anything further he can help me with, I must still come back to him.  So that is not true.
 But the crux of the matter is that the Surgeon-General told me, when I approached him with the information on the dissatisfaction with Mr Hendricks, he told me that he would look into Mr Hendricks' dissatisfaction but it's a company matter.  He assisted me in trying to get a payout for my pension, full pension which would help me financially.  He had compassion with me in my economic situation with a large family.  We went to the "Ombudsman" etc., he gave evidence at the "Ombudsman's" office etc.  I gave evidence at the "Ombudsman", Just van der Walt's office.  Then Judge van der Walt phoned me after that and said he heard some evidence and he found in my favour that I was unjustly treated by the government and that they, he finds that they need to pay me a sum of money, how much do I reckon and I said: "No, he can decide, I'm not demanding anything because I don't know what the lines are to determine this".  I had the feeling that a part of my pension fund should be suitable and he said, alright he will negotiate with the Army for the amount.   He phoned me back one week later and he said new evidence came to light which indicated that the Surgeon-General or the company's of the Surgeon-General had full right in dismissing me summarily because of three reasons.  One was, and I can't remember it but the documentation is also available, something to the extent of being, misusing company funds, secondly, being psychologically unstable and thirdly, committing, giving out the secrets, the government secrets.  So I said I would like to see the evidence behind that.  
 I looked at the evidence and I saw it was a letter signed by two of the Directors.  And then I asked for a meeting again with the Surgeon-General to speak to him personally so that we can discuss this issue.  One week before I was informed by the "Ombudsman" to get some sort of a bit of a compensation, and one week later I was accused of, in fact if you can you put it, I was convicted of doing all these things.  
 Then I arrived at his office and he was very friendly.  Doctor Wouter Basson was also there and we had a discussion and then the Surgeon-General, Doctor Knobel more or less denied that he promised he could help me and Doctor Basson said that the Surgeon-General had absolutely no connections, I was taken into the service of the companies by myself, I wasn't appointed by the government, I wasn't dismissed by the government, the government has got nothing to do with it and there's nothing I can do about it.  
 And I thought, but this can't be true, this was a government organisation and there must be something one can do about it, that is what I said.    ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Goosen, I appreciate that you may want to explain that what is put to you as having been, (a) a threat but more importantly, one that had a blackmailing element to the extent that you were saying you were going to expose General Knobel, but if you perhaps could be more specific and more without being elaborate.  I think the question is, did you threaten him?  You may want to say: "Yes, I threatened him and he also threatened me" ...[intervention]

DR GOOSEN: I might have said, and I can't exactly remember the words but I definitely might have said that they cannot deny that they have never known me and I, I will not rest or I cannot accept it that they can state they have never known me.  That is not true.   And they said I was welcome to speak to KEEM, to the Auditor General, to whoever I wished to, I am free to do that.  I said: "Alright, I will speak to these people to get the facts".

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis?

DR GOOSEN: Because how can I prove a claim that I am innocent in being this bad person which they make me out to be.

MR DU PLESSIS: Doctor Goosen, from this long explanation, you said you can't remember what you've said.  If you can't remember how can you dispute what Knobel has said, because he can remember what he said?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, that's not what he said.  He says he cannot remember the detail of it but he was clear about one thing, that there was an exchange there and he was seeking to say: "Look, I have to a duty to myself, I can't just be left in the street".  I think Mr du Plessis, there is a way in which you can put a version to the witness.

MR DU PLESSIS: I've done it already Mr Chairperson. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.

MR DU PLESSIS: I told him that after Knobel had said: "I'm sorry I can't help you any further", he said: "Now I'm going to expose you because you knew about everything".

CHAIRPERSON: What is your response to the Doctor Goosen, without explaining?

DR GOOSEN: Mr Chairman, I definitely as I've explained it, said that they cannot deny that they knew nothing about this project and nothing about the appointing me and nothing about dismissing me.  And that fact, if needs be I will expose it, to whom, I haven't said but at that stage I intended to expose it to the Judge, the "Ombudsman" with whom we had dealings, Judge van der Walt.  I didn't go to newspapers.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis?

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

DR GOOSEN: We had dealings with Judge van der Walt.  I said to Judge van der Walt: "I am first going to speak to General Knobel again".  And then I went back to Judge van der Walt and then Judge van der Walt said the OSEO office is right next to him.  And I can carry on with the story.

CHAIRPERSON: No.

DR GOOSEN: We ended up next to the vice-president's office.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr du Plessis?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, my client indicated that this threat he made was much more serious and I want to put it to you that when the Knobel said he wasn't able to help you any further, then you said you are going to ...[no English translation] ...[transcribers own translation] tell the people that he was involved in a plot to murder President Mandela.  That is the threat you made to him.

DR GOOSEN: No, Mr Chairperson, I'm sorry, that is not true.

MR DU PLESSIS: Previously you did agree that you threatened him ...[intervention]

DR GOOSEN: I've already explained ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think he has answered the question.  I don't think we can test him.  You have put a proposition to him, he denies it, let's get on with it.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Polsen?