Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: Let me understand you. We have APLA, which is the military wing of the Pan Africanist Congress, would I be right?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would fight the army, the police etc., would I still be correct?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in the process APLA forms this Task Force.  It says: "Protect the community".  Did I follow you to this stage, that the Task Force's main aim was to protect the community?

MR LEBEA: Yes, according to its formation it was so, but when time went by, as I explained that the Commander of APLA, Themba Ncapai ordered us to intensify our arms struggle.  How do you intensify the arms struggle?  You instil fear among the whites, especially the farmers, so that the oppressive Government would hand over the Government.

CHAIRPERSON: So the Task Force was tasked to, over and above defending the community, to do the very job which is done by the military wing of the Pan Africanist Congress, do I understand you to say that?

MR LEBEA: What I mean is that the Task Force was doing what APLA was doing and it is APLA in itself because it was a unit within APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Lebea, you are now applying for amnesty for an incident which happened in February 1991 at Mazelspoort, am I correct?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee who gave you instructions with regard to this incident?

MR LEBEA: It was Comrade Themba Ncapai.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you also tell the Committee who identified the target?

MR LEBEA: It's Themba Ncapai.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who made the reconnaissance of the place?

MR LEBEA: Myself and Themba Ncapai did the reconnaissance and at the last it was done by myself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How many people were selected to attack the target?

MR LEBEA: Four people.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you, step by step, tell the Committee what was going to be the duty of each of the members of the unit who were going to attack and how were you armed, each of you?

MR LEBEA: I'll start first by giving the detail of each one of us.  King's function was to be a security, to stand outside the door to watch out for anything that could happen.  My duty was to repossess and to attack.  Donosi's function was to attack.  He was with me at the time of the attack.  Samuel Mokweti's duty was to take the goods and take them to the car during repossession.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How were you armed and who was commanding the unit?

MR LEBEA: I was the Commander of this group.  The AK47 was left behind in the car because we had discovered that it was not necessary to use it at that venue.  We only had a 9mm pistol and a knife, a panga.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what were the instructions of Themba Ncapai to you?  What were you going to do in that farm?  Exactly what were you going to do, the specific instructions, or the specific order that was given?

MR LEBEA: It was to repossess what was taken away from our forefathers.

CHAIRPERSON: Then let's look at this incident, it's just one.  You go to this place at Mazelspoort.  What were you told to do at Mazelspoort by Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: It was to repossess, as I've mentioned.  To repossess the items, to repossess any items, money, jewellery, guns, anything that would be of use to advance our armed struggle.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So do I understand you correctly, you didn't have to repossess what was taken from your forefathers?

MR LEBEA: That's what I mentioned.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And jewellery, how was it going to advance the struggle?

MR LEBEA: It was going to advance the struggle in this way.  The land was taken away from our forefathers in the previous time.  When you're talking of land, you're not only referring to land where you can plough.  When you talk of land you're actually talking of so many things, diamonds and gold included and things like jewellery, they are manufactured from the land, from the soil, we were supposed to repossess them, so that we can use them in such a way that we would advance the struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: How would you then, when you have repossessed the jewellery, advance the struggle?  You have now got the jewellery, what do you do with the jewellery?

MR LEBEA: To sell the jewellery Sir, so that we can finance the activities of APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told where to sell the jewellery to obtain money to advance the struggle?

MR LEBEA: No, we were not told and ours was to hand them over to our Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say during the attack King's function was to be the security to guard and see that nobody comes and yours was to repossess and attack, same as Donosi, who had also to attack and Samuel Mokweti was to take what you repossessed in the car.  You had left the AK 47 in the car but you had a 9mm and a knife.  Who had the 9mm?

MR LEBEA: It is King.

CHAIRPERSON: And the knife?

MR LEBEA: I had the knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

ADV SANDI: Before you proceed;  so Donosi had nothing?

MR LEBEA: Can you repeat your question please?

ADV SANDI: Was Donosi armed with anything?  Can I take it from what you have just said that he was not armed?

MR LEBEA: He was not armed.

ADV SANDI: And Samuel also, he was not armed?

MR LEBEA: Samuel was armed.

ADV SANDI: With what?

MR LEBEA: He had a knife.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members.  Can you tell the Committee how did you go to this farm?  What were you using?  Were you using your own car or what, or taxi, how did you go there?

MR LEBEA: We walked.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you then, on your arrival, give the Committee a picture of what actually took place until you had finished what you went there to do?

MR LEBEA: When we arrived, we inspected the area, as we had done days before, so that there would be no disturbances at all.  When we arrived there, we used the front door to enter.  Before entering, we gave out instructions as to who does what and who does not do what.  We broke the door, we got inside and King was left at the door.  Myself and Donosi went in.  There was a dog inside that house, but the dog did not do anything.  Mr van Tonder came, he had a firearm.  When he approached, I saw him through the glass.  I waited at the door and I waited for him to get out of the door and when he appeared we wrestled for the firearm that he had.  As we were wrestling  I heard a gun shot from this firearm that we were fighting for and I took out a panga and I worked on him with this panga.  I was trying to get hold of the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just get it a little clearer - I'm sorry about this Mbandazayo.  When you say you worked him with it, what do you mean?

MR LEBEA: I mean I hacked him with the panga.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you proceed?  What happened?

MR LEBEA: I managed to cut him and I got hold of the firearm and I handed the firearm to Donosi, as I have mentioned and from there King came inside and he was called in by the sound, that is the gunshot.  I did not see what he did when he got inside, because I moved on to the other room and I noticed that I had been injured.  It looked like, when we were fighting over the gun, I think Mr van Tonder shot at me, but I only realised afterwards.  King came in and they took things and I also left.  They took me to the car.  They took stuff and they put it in the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Lebea, you kept on mentioning the car, can you tell us about this car because you told us that you went there on foot, now you are talking about a car, can you tell the Committee about the car you are mentioning, keep on mentioning?  Also the AK 47 was left in the car, now can you explain a little bit about this car?