Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-11

GERHARD VAN NIEKERK: For many years, it was actually, those laws prevented us from doing it.  Because fundamentally, as a life assurer, you are looking after the interest of your clients.  The day after you make an investment, you have to put a value on that investment, if that investment can be impaired by some government action, the only value that I can put on that is zero.  And that comes straight off the capital backing up that business.  It would have been; to actually go in and break the law, would have been a totally irresponsible action on our part and as I say, it is not that we didn't try.  But we, and since then, we've done a number of those things.

DR RANDERA: Sorry can I just move the discussion a little further.  And this is really related to the question of the national debt.  In a submission made by Mr Terry Crawford Brown, he talks about the debt in , the national debt in 1986 being a hundred and two billion, in 1990 three hundred and thirty three billion.  And the interest on this in 1997 alone was thirty nine billion.  Some people argue that this is a way of making the rich get richer and the poor remain poorer and in a sense re-inforcing what we've come out of, which is who actually owns the wealth of the country?  I understand  of the 90% of the financial instruments which fund the national debt, about five organisations hold this and Old Mutual is one of these.  As you know there is a movement, not only in our country, but internationally that is talking about one, the odious debt as well as national debt in our country.  This morning we talked about reparation, is there something your company has given forth to in terms of

GERHARD VAN NIEKERK: I have difficulty in understanding what you're asking me to do, because, yes, we lent money to the government for and for most of this time, even today there is a compulsion on us to actually invest part of our clients' monies with government institutions.  And ultimately it is the, you know if the government can turn around and say, somebody has to write off that kind of debt, whose going to bear that?  I mean, does four million policyholders, I mean who else can, where must this money come from?  I just don't understand Mr Crawford Browns' argument.  I read some of his stories in the press and you know, you and Professor Terblanche teach me something in economics, I don't understand it.  It makes no economic sense to me chairman.

DR RANDERA: Does it not make any sense internationally either then?  Is that what you're saying?  That's what is being asked of the IMF, that is what is being asked of the World Bank,

GERHARD VAN NIEKERK: Ja, do you have an international organisation whose funded voluntarily by somebody else and they can go and make money available to relieve some of the debt, that's one thing.  But to actually ask somebody who is taken money from the man on the street, and invested it in good faith, with a particular institution, you will have no future investment in that area because people will not believe that won't happen again.  It will destroy total confidence in all those institutions.  I think it will be the most irresponsible action that anybody can ask anybody to do.  I just don't understand that.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  You may step down.

GERHARD VAN NIEKERK: Thank you very much

CHAIRPERSON: Eskom please.

DR BORAINE: Warmly to this commission, and I'd be grateful if whoever is leading the delegation, if you'd introduce your delegation first before we move on.

WILLEM KOK: Apologies chairman.  Chairperson, commission, ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon.  My name is Willem Kok, I am Eskom's finance director, however I will be doing this presentation on behalf of Eskom's council and management board, in my capacity as acting chief executive.  I would like to apologise for the absence of Eskom's chief executive Mr Allen Morgan, who is attending a world energy council convention in Bangkok, he also tendered a written apology to the TRC.  With me, to assist with answering your questions, I have Mrs Dolly Moghatle, executive director corporate affairs; Mr Bob Macklewaine, corporate industrial relations consultant and Mr Willie Du Plessis, our corporate legal consultant.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much indeed and welcome to all of you; as you know, we have to ask you to take either the oath or the affirmation.  And could I ask you, I assume that we should, all should just in case.   But they'll all be very brief I'm sure.  Can you tell me which you prefer to take the oath or the affirmation?

WILLEM KOK: All four would like to take the oath thank you.

DR BORAINE: Would you stand please.  Dr Boraine carries out oath, all parties of Eskom swear oath.  Thank you please be seated.

WILLEM KOK: Chairperson as requested by Dr Randera in his letter dated the 29th October 1997; I will today formally table Eskom's submission to the TRC.  It's a lengthy submission of 49 pages, which for presentation purposed we've shortened to 15 pages.  Presenting this will take some twenty to twenty five minutes which I know exceeds your indicated time limit of fifteen minutes, for the sake of completeness however, I seek permission from the chair for this additional time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.