Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

MR HOCKEY: I just find it very strange that it is not categorically stated in your Section 29 statement that Mr Hardien in fact, if this is the truth, Mr Hardien in fact did go and check whether there are people in the building or not.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept that it has not been noted as such.

MR HOCKEY: Now when Mr Hardien left to go check whether there are people in the building, where in relation to the building were you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was not with the inspection, it is difficult for me to say precisely.  We stood some distance away, a few hundred metres away, after we had dropped him off.  I cannot tell you precisely where.

MR HOCKEY: "Aantal honderd meter", what does that mean?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Two hundred to three hundred metres, I cannot recall precisely, but we stood quite some distance away after we had dropped him off.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you stood, what do you mean, in the motor vehicle or did you get out at all?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, Chairperson, we dropped him off and then we held observation on a position which was some distance away from the building.

MR HOCKEY: When he returned to say there are still people in the building ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

MR HOCKEY: ... what did you do after that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We moved closer so that we could have a better point of observation of the building.  I sat in the back of the vehicle and Mr Hardien was in front with Mr van Zyl, and we observed the building.

MR HOCKEY: When this took place did you stand at a particular place or did you drive around?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We drove around once more, but we were stationary primarily.

MR HOCKEY: Where did you stand?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: A few metres away from the building, I cannot tell you precisely where.

MR HOCKEY: What is a "aantal meter"?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I don't know, anything between 10 to 30 metres, I don't know, but so much so that we could see a name which we could attach to a face of a person coming out of the building.

MR HOCKEY: That's the reason why I'm asking you this question.  You were near enough in order to attach a name to a face.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is why I have answered as such.

MR HOCKEY: In other words you could clearly identify individuals?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not me, Mr Hardien.

MR HOCKEY: But you could also see.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR HOCKEY: Could you see the faces?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I could.

MR HOCKEY: Now you said that people came out of the building, you testified yesterday that people came out of the building and names were attached to faces.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR HOCKEY: You mentioned the name Mr Williams.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Among others, as far as I can recall, yes.

MR HOCKEY: Do you actually remember that particular name?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: A number of names were mentioned, I can recall his name.

MR HOCKEY: You remember his name?  Do you remember the name of Mr Chris Ferndale?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think he mentioned that name.  I'm referring to something which took place 11 years ago, these are names that I can remember.  Possibly I could be mistaken by saying that these were names which were mentioned, names of Committee members and that they do not resemble a face which Mr Hardien saw.  I cannot recall precisely.

MR HOCKEY: But now I'm asking you whether that name was mentioned as one of the people that came out of the building.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It's possible.

MR HOCKEY: You see we're again sitting with the problem, "dis moontlik".

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it is a problem.

MR HOCKEY: It's not really an answer.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept that, that is why I can tell you that I don't know.  I could say definitely, I could use any option, but I cannot recall.  I cannot recall is closer to possible.

MR HOCKEY: Besides Chris Ferndale you don't seem to say that "dit is moontlik" that the name Peter Williams was mentioned.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There were a number of names.  As I've said, I don't know if these are names of Committee members.  I can recall that Mr Hardien said that such and such were coming out and leaving in their vehicles.

MR HOCKEY: Mr Botha, yesterday you ...(indistinct) said that Mr Peter Williams was a name that was mentioned.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it is one of the names which were mentioned, I accept that, those are the names that I can recall.  That is my recollection.

MR HOCKEY: You see my next question was going - or I was going to state it to you that Mr Chris Ferndale in fact was not at that particular meeting, and it's the only context in which his name could have been mentioned.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As a Committee member.  The name could have been mentioned to me as a Committee member of the Kewtown Youth Movement.

MR HOCKEY: The other fact is that in 1989, Mr Chris Ferndale was not a Committee member of the Kewtown Youth Movement.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I do not know the name from any other place than my meeting with Hardien and Van Zyl.  It was not my project, I never worked on Chris Ferndale, so I do not know where I would have heard about him.

MR HOCKEY: Did you - while you were standing there and these people were coming out of the building, were you facing the building?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean you must have been if you could identify their faces.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I may have look in the rear-view mirror or something.

MR LAX: Could you see the parking area?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes Sir, I could.

MR HOCKEY: I'm asking you this question because Mr van Zyl's evidence was that the vehicle in which you were was facing away from the building.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is why I'm saying to you that I cannot recall.  I cannot say with certainty.

MR HOCKEY: You cannot recall?

CHAIRPERSON: But when you said "facing", Mr Hockey, you can sit in a vehicle and turn your neck and look around.  Did you mean the vehicle was facing, or they were looking at the building?

MR HOCKEY: If I remember correctly, after the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The vehicle was parked there but that doesn't mean that the people in the vehicle weren't facing the building, because you can turn your head and look.

MR HOCKEY: Sorry, I meant the vehicle, the vehicle was not facing.

CHAIRPERSON: The vehicle, can you remember which way the vehicle was, the front of the vehicle was pointing when you were keeping observation there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I really can't remember.

MR HOCKEY: But the vehicle was stationary at the time?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

MR HOCKEY: Can you remember whether you reversed at any particular point?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir, I cannot recall.

MR HOCKEY: Get closer to the building?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot recall.  It's possible, but I cannot recall.

MR HOCKEY: You testified that Mr van Zyl first tried to detonate the bomb.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

MR HOCKEY: And there was a problem, you took the detonation device.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He handed it over to me.

MR HOCKEY: What did you do to it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I possibly looked at the battery casing, rolled them, or just looked.  I do not think I did anything specifically more than that.

MR HOCKEY: So you're saying now that you did look at the batteries?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I've said it all the time, I've said it could be that there's some dirt in the connecting points, but I did not change the batteries.  I did not change them.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something.
	You say you possibly could have done this, do you remember doing it or don't you?