Amnesty Hearings — East London — 2000-02-03

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

MR SMITH: And if - did he fire from inside that vehicle?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: Over the side, I just want to make sure I understand you correctly?  I presume it's a launcher so it could shoot the grenade over the side?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, it's not an indirect launcher, it's a direct launcher.

MR SMITH: Just explain to me, how would it work?  The grenade launcher, how does it work?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: You shoot it directly to the direction where you want to fire.

MR SMITH: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a rifle grenade?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes - no, it's not a rifle grenade, a 40 mm launcher.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it's fired with a launcher?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Not on a rifle?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, not on a rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: So how do you launch it, how did he -what was his vehicle, was it an armoured truck?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: An armoured vehicle, yes a buffel armoured car.

CHAIRPERSON: A buffel?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: An open - is it open at the back?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It's open on top.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, on top?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So what did he - did he launch a grenade out of the vehicle itself, out of the truck?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, you cannot launch - that's why I say it's not in direct fire, where you can launch it while you are inside the truck.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he get out of the thing?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, you must stand there and fire direct.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see it's one of those portable things you put on your shoulder?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So he got outside?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, he was inside the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Inside?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he stood up?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: With this rocket launcher resting on his shoulder?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No he just fired here on the shoulder.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh he just held it?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Like a rifle?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes like a rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: And he fired?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The rocket?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Into the ground?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Into the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: Twice?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Twice.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry Mr Smith?

MR SMITH: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: How far was he from you when Gonya fired this rocket launcher into the ground?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: He was inside the vehicle.  Inside the vehicle.  When I realised that Gonya had fired this grenade then another member of Ciskei Defence Force was there, Major Zulu, told me that "this trooper fired the rocket launcher."  I asked him "why?" because I was busy communicating all the stuff to monitor the situation from Major Mbene and to speak with Colonel van der Bank and then Major Zulu said "this trooper fired a rocket launcher", I said "why, who told you to fire this thing?"

ADV SANDI: You see I thought you were quite close to him, didn't you see him firing this rocket launcher?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Sir, that's why the situation was so very confused to me because all the time I speak I go down to the vehicle so that I can speak because there was a lot of noise outside, if I can stand up.  So I think at that stage when I was down he shot a launcher and then it's where Major Zulu told me, I said "Gonya, you fired this.." and he shouted to him "what are you doing" he had said prior this rocket launcher.

ADV SANDI: Now at the internal enquiry that was held after this shooting, did you mention that this man had fired the rocket launcher, did you mention that at that enquiry?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I beg yours Sir?

ADV SANDI: There was an internal enquiry to look into this shooting, do you remember?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

ADV SANDI: And you gave a statement, questions were asked and you asked, it appears in these documents, also?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I did mention to Major Scroobie who was doing the board of enquiry.

ADV SANDI: Okay thank you, maybe we'll come back to that later.

MR SMITH: Mr Mkosana, just on that same point are these grenades placed one at a time into the launcher, do you place one in the launcher and you fire it and you place another one inside or do you - can you place any number of them in and fire them in sequence or how does it work?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: You place them I think it's about 8 at the same time.

MR SMITH: You can place 8 into the launcher and then you can fire them?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: One by one.

MR SMITH: Okay.  Now Scroobie said at his inspection he found that four 40 mm grenades were fired.  Do you disagree with that, let me put it that way?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, when I enquire from Rifleman Gonya he said he had only fired two rifle grenades.

MR SMITH: Now at enquiry, at the internal enquiry, one of the findings was that action should have been taken against certain soldiers or certain groups of soldiers, disciplinary steps.  Do you know, were there any disciplinary steps - had ever been taken?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No Sir because all these commissions, the board of enquiry, they were just been heard and then I never heard any follow up or what actions had been taken, I never heard nothing, nothing what the truth had been, prosecuted or what.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mkosana, what did they use - what's the normal use in the military context of these rifle grenades?  Under what circumstances would you use it normally?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: We use rifle grenades during the war, during the exercises.

CHAIRPERSON: But now do you use it to shoot an armoured vehicle, I mean what is the normal field of application of these rifle grenades or are they just something that kills a lot of people at the same time or do you shoot it into an armoured car or did it penetrate something?  What's the use, what's the normal - the standard use of it in the army, in the military set up?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: To shoot a building.

CHAIRPERSON: At a building?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Or to shoot a car but not a human being.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Smith?

MR SMITH: Mr Mkosana, would you agree that if one considers a number of shots fired, grenades launched, that this was excessive force that was used?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It was.

MR SMITH: That is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SMITH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Smith.  Mr Koopedi, have you got any questions?

MR KOOPEDI: A few Chairperson.
	Mr Mkosana, let's start first with Mr Gonya.  When you gave the order to Major Mbene, do you recall where Mr Gonya was in terms of proximity, how far was he from you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: He was closer like myself and the commissioner there because the vehicle - they see the size of the vehicle, how long the vehicle is.

MR KOOPEDI: Would I then be correct to say that he would have heard you when you gave the order for minimal force and you giving it to Major Mbene and not giving any order to him?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Would I further then be correct that whatever he did were in terms of firing his grenades was definitely not an order from you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No it was not an order from me.

MR KOOPEDI: Would I then further be correct to say that you're actually not asking for amnesty for having ordered him to shoot?  I'm referring to Mr Gonya?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir, the only amnesty that I'm asking is, justifying those people which I gave order to Major Mbene to open fire.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay, now ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry Mr Koopedi, before you go to another point, if he can estimate the distance from where he sits?