Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MS TANZER: Where did you hide your weapons, the knopkierrie and the iron bar?

MR MAZIBUKO: In my room.  When I entered in my room I was sleeping on the bed in the corner.  On top on the roof there were planks and I threw them on top of those planks.

MS TANZER: Yes, Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that the weapons were hidden in the ceiling.

MR MAZIBUKO: All those rooms in Madala hostel don't have ceilings.  If you are inside and you look above you see the roof.  There is no ceiling.  You cannot even touch the roof.  Even if you can climb on top of the bed you cannot touch the roof because it's too high.

MS TANZER: Well where did you hide your weapons?

MR MAZIBUKO: I threw them on top of the scaffold.  You'd find these wooden wall beds and mattresses and then on top you'd find the scaffolds on top, then I just threw my weapons on the scaffold.

MS TANZER: Were all the weapons hidden there, the AK47s, the pump guns that you mentioned?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, do you know whether the other weapons were hidden?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: Did you attend that annual rally in Ulundi in July, about a month after the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: I have never been to Ulundi.

MS TANZER: Are you aware, or were you aware of any relationship that existed between Victor Keswa and members of the police force?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence, and in fact he was a member of Mr Keswa's hit squad, that in fact Mr Keswa had dealings with police in the vicinity and that these policemen did supply weapons to Mr Keswa, what your comments, being a friend of his ...(indistinct)?

MR MAZIBUKO: There is nothing like that.  I do not believe in that.  I don't remember meeting police or I don't remember seeing him with the police.
	We were surprised that he was detained at all times.  The police would come and detain him at night. As to what he was arrested for we did not know but he was detained regularly.

MS TANZER: But being a friend of Mr Keswa, did you not know of any perhaps personal dealings, that perhaps when he was taken at night there was not detainment but maybe a relationship or other sorts?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me put it this way.  Since I became his friend I don't remember Victor Keswa having a friendship with a policeman.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Mazibuko, is it correct that you shared a room with Mr Nana Tshabango?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were friendly with Mr Nana Tshabango?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were friendly with Mr Victor Keswa?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And Mr Victor Keswa was friendly with Mr Nana Tshabango?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not say he was a friend or had a relationship with Nana Tshabango because I have never seen them together since I arrived at that hostel.  Victor Keswa was staying in his room and Nana Tshabango was staying in his room.  I never saw them in the company to one another.

MR BERGER: You were present when a photograph was handed in by your counsel at these hearings, where there was some graffiti on the wall against or calling for the heads, and I use that not literally, of Victor Keswa and Nana Tshabango, do you remember that photograph?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do remember.

MR BERGER: So I'll ask you again, isn't it correct that Nana Tshabango and Victor Keswa were associates?

MR MAZIBUKO: I never saw them.  Let me explain it this way.  Nana Tshabango came from Tshirela(?).  Victor Keswa came from Sebokeng.  Nan Tshabango according to Tshirela's people, was a bad person who was a murderer, who shooting people, who was assaulting people.  And Getisi, it was alleged that he was a killer and assaulting people.  So people came to that kind of conclusion, the people within the community said they wanted Getisi and Nana.
	There were those when I was with Nana Tshabango in a car going to town.  We would give them a lift then we'd ask them;  do you know Nana Tshabango?  Those people from the township would say; I don't know, we don't know him.  Then they would say; did you hear about him, they said yes.  Then they would say we are looking for him.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that Mr Nana Tshabango was a policeman?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: When you were at the stadium on the night of the 17th of June 1992, what were your instructions just before you left the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: Do you mean the instructions which we were given?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR MAZIBUKO: When we were at the stadium they informed us we should go to Boipatong and kill members of the Self Defence Unit in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Who said that?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is Mkhize.

MR BERGER: Did he say anything else?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't remember if he said anything else.

MR BERGER: Did anyone say anything else?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is Damarra Chonco.

MR BERGER: And what did he say?

MR MAZIBUKO: ...(indistinct) here are the guns, whoever wants to take a gun let him take it.  Then people went to fetch those guns.

MR BERGER: Where were the guns?

MR MAZIBUKO: They were on the ground inside the stadium.

MR BERGER: And did you grab a gun?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR MAZIBUKO: At that time I did not have a long ...(indistinct) in the hostel.  I was not brave enough to go and fetch a gun.

MR BERGER: What sort  of guns were there on the ground?

MR MAZIBUKO: AK47s.

MR BERGER: Any other guns?

MR MAZIBUKO: I saw AK47s.

MR BERGER: How many?

MR MAZIBUKO: There were a number.  I cannot be able to count how many because they were not put in line, they were just dropped.  So I would not be able to count how many there were.

MR BERGER: Approximately?

MR MAZIBUKO: I think there would be plus-minus 10.

MR BERGER: And only AK47s?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the reason that you didn't go and grab one, you could have but you didn't because you hadn't been in the hostel a long time and you weren't feeling brave enough, is that your answer?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way.  According to my mind, when they said here are guns, whoever must go and fetch, even if I would go nearer to the guns, the way people ran to fetch those guns I couldn't have found one on the ground because we were many and many people were rushing to fetch one.

MR BERGER: Well then I don't understand your answer that you hadn't been in the hostel long enough and you weren't feeling brave enough to take a gun, if your answer now is that you didn't have time to get a gun because everyone rushed for it.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, his answer was: "Even if I wanted to I wouldn't have been able to because of the rush."  He qualified his answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, what counsel wants to find out from you is why didn't you fetch the AK47, you were told there they are and by your own estimate there were about 10 at least.  Why didn't you fetch one?

MR MAZIBUKO: Inside the hostel I was not free enough to talk to any other person who was a hostel dweller whom I'm not used to, so the reason why I did not go to grab a gun, I did not have the freedom or the free will.  I was a little bit conscious.  I was conscious.  I looked to the people around first but then I said maybe they should be the first who should go and fetch a gun before I do.

MR BERGER: So who took the guns, the AK47s?

MR MAZIBUKO: The one I remember is Sipho Lukozi.

MR BERGER: Yes, continue.

MR MAZIBUKO: That is Mkhize, that is Damarra Chonco and other men whom I did not know.  I don't know their names but I can identify them if I see them.

MR BERGER: Have you seen them?  Were any of them accused with you in the criminal trial?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, they were present but they were acquitted.