Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until ten o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had an opportunity to read or have it interpreted to you, the statement that we were talking about?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand the statement?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I understood the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a statement that you made in full or in part?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, most of it, but as I was talking to the person verbally and the person was writing down for me.  I think there were some mistakes.

INTERPRETER: The applicant said that the Attorney added some things so that the statement could be well understood.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly then that the contents of that statement is not totally accurate?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Most of it I said to the person who was transcribing for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to point out the aspects which are incorrect?  I am not asking you to point them out, I am asking you if you are able to do so?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I would be able to.

CHAIRPERSON: But generally you are telling us that it is a statement that you made, albeit unsigned?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, if there are issues or aspects of that statement that are incorrect, and you are questioned about it, will you please point those aspects out, when and if the time arises?  Do you understand?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ...

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, may I, I have only one copy given to me which I placed before the applicant, but I would request another copy if possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you not got a copy?

MR BLACK: No, this is the only copy that was handed to me, the applicant had not been given a copy.  This is a copy which I...

CHAIRPERSON: I was only asking whether you made any effort to get it yesterday, it appears not?  Are there copies available.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have copies for the Committee.  Unfortunately I do not have a copy for him, I've got a copy for the Committee that I would like to submit.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it has been sorted out by Mr Patel, he is playing Father Christmas.

MR BLACK: There is no copy for the applicant either, and this is not the same statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, have you got a copy of that statement, that was pointed out to you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I have.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, do you have a copy?

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I then ask for permission to submit the copies, the last page has been removed.
	I am not sure if Exhibits have been admitted, if it can be submitted as Exhibit A with your permission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this will be marked Exhibit A.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  You have now had the opportunity to with your Attorney and co-applicants go through this statement and you have now also mentioned to the Committee that you will be able to indicate where the mistakes are, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: I think it is very important sir, that you must exactly tell us because I would like to refer you to Volume 1, page 36 that is the statement that appears in the volume, paragraph 13.  Have you got it in front of you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention there under the Piet Retief operations, I received direct instructions from the ANC command to kill Alfius Msibi.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Could you tell the Honourable Committee, that command structure - can you tell us from where you received this command because it is very clear that you are talking about a command structure?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat himself?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just repeat that answer please?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Stulu Hlaza was the Commander or the Chairperson of the Youth League, ANC Youth League in Piet Retief and was the Commander of the Self Defence Unit as well.  I received an instruction from him.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you receive an instruction from a Youth League of the ANC to kill someone?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.  I received an instruction from the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League, not from the Youth League itself, but from the Chairperson of the Youth League.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Chairperson, Mr Hlaza?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And from whom would he then have received his instructions?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I cannot hear, there is no interpretation coming through from my earphones.
	Please repeat your question, I can hear now.

MS VAN DER WALT: From whom did Mr Hlaza receive his instructions?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was merely a soldier, I do not know any politics.

MS VAN DER WALT: No sir, but I am now going on what you say in your statement in Volume 1.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You make allegations in the statement, you discuss it in full, more than what you do in Exhibit A and that is why I would now like to find out from you how the structures of the ANC worked in Piet Retief and what the command structure was and how the commands came to you as a soldier?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I received my instructions from Commander Hlaza as a soldier.  I don't know who he spoke with to reach these conclusions.  At the time we lived under apartheid.  It was difficult to divulge all even to a soldier, it was dangerous because you could not trust everybody.
	It was difficult for Mr Hlaza to tell me where he got the authority to give me such a command.

CHAIRPERSON: Answer this question, was the Chairman of the ANC Youth League in that area, entitled to give you a command?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he in his capacity as Chairperson of the ANC Youth League, part of the command structure?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I have already said Mr Chairperson, I am not a politician, I am a soldier.  I received orders.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is exactly what we are trying to find out.  Who was entitled to give you an order and to whose orders were you duty bound to react?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Hlaza, as he was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League and also a Commander of the Self Defence Units in Piet Retief, I expected such orders from him as the Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was part of the command structure?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, according to my knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: So he could either give you an order by his own authority or he could communicate an order from some structure, ranked above him?  Is that so?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I am sure it is so sir.

MS VAN DER WALT: You do not even know that, because you cannot tell this Committee how this command structure worked.  You say that you received your instruction from the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League and furthermore you don't know anything else that happened above in the command structure, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was a soldier, I am a soldier.  When I am given an order, I obey it accordingly.  I don't have to look into what the politicians decide, who they speak to or whatever.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, but then I do not understand your evidence at all.  When Mr Kemp questioned you, or I beg your pardon, Mr Patel questioned you, then you said with regards to Mr Mkhwanazi, his client, then you said you could act on your own initiative and only later, tell your Commander.  A soldier does not act in that way?

CHAIRPERSON: In what way?

MS VAN DER WALT: To act on own initiative, to do as he wishes and then only later go and report back?

MS VAN DER WALT: Very clearly with regards to his answer now, that he acted like a soldier.   He only received a command from Hlaza and that is how a soldier acts, and on the other hand he said that he could act on his own initiative?

CHAIRPERSON: So what is the problem there?