Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.  We've made copies of the missing page 8, might I hand it up, hand some copies to my learned friends, thank you.  Chairperson, you will see that the one weapon that was found in the possession of the injured people, or amongst the people lying injured at Shell House is reflected there at paragraph 3.1 on the bottom of page 8, the self-loading pistol.
	I was dealing just before lunch with paragraph 11, and in 11.1, just to summarise briefly, the AK47s that were fired at the time of the shooting, according to the analysis of Superintendent Du Plessis were the one fired by Mr Molefe which was linked to the 6 doppies, the one fired by a marcher which is linked to the 9 doppies, that's the one that was later recovered at Library Gardens, the one AK47, that's no 3, fired into the deceased, probably fired from above Nandos.  
	The fourth AK47 was the jacketed bullet found, the exhibit which wasn't linked to any of the others is no 4, and then of course Mr Eddie Khumalo's no 5, and then there's always the possibility of a sixth AK47 if one takes that last 16th doppie into account.  
	Besides AK47s that were fired at the time of the shooting, 11.2 and, the reference to the evidence is there, at least to Makorov pistols were fired, at least three revolvers were fired, possibly five revolvers were fired, at least five 9mm pistols were fired.  11.5, the R5 or R4 rifle, that's probably the one fired by the SADF person who shot at the marchers after he said the marchers shot at him with an AK47, one or more shotguns and then possibly many more firearms of different calibre and the evidence - it's dealt with in the evidence of Superintendent Du Plessis, the reference is there, footnote 13 and the page numbers are all annexed to the memorandum, but what he was referring to was that there were many bullet fragments as was set out in his affidavit which was recovered from the scene which couldn't be tested just because they weren't complete, there were I think about 20 bullet fragments of different calibre.  
	And then there were a whole lot of other jackets - doppies and bullets which were recovered, but which had not markings on, they couldn't be - he couldn't say one way or the other that it had come from the said gun or it did not come from the same gun, so there's that grey area.
	Paragraph 12 then of the memorandum deals with other bullet fragments which had been found, and the significance that we say of the fact that fragments were found or bullets were found both on the eastern pavement and on the western pavement of Shell House is indicative of the fact that shots were being fired from all directions, and bullets were landing both on the eastern pavement and on the western pavement.  One can't take it any further than that.
	What is also interesting is paragraph 13, Chairperson, two of the exhibits which Superintendent Du Plessis tested, he positively linked to a Z88 9mm Parabellum pistol which was seized by the Police from one of the marchers later in the day, that's - and the reference is there as well.  That's also referred to in his affidavit, the link.  For the sake of completeness, there ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Go on, just refresh my memory, I might have missed this, were there any evidence about any bullets being fired by this firearm?

MR BERGER: A Z88 9mm Parabellum?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: No, not ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No ballistic evidence?

MR BERGER: The only evidence is that certain doppies I think they were, if I could just find the reference, it's at page 7353 of the evidence of Du Plessis which starts at page 47 of this memorandum, line 2, I asked at the top there, I said, "Can I just have that document back please" - no, no, it is the summary with tables in it.  Then I said,
"Superintendent, I have been given another copy, in paragraph 6.2 of your exhibit "Y7" you say the following"
and "Y7" for the Committee's purposes is annexure B if I'm not mistaken - yes, it's annexure B, annexure B is "Y7" and annexure C if there's any confusion was exhibit "Y1".  I say there 
"die oorblywende doppies en koeels in alle kalibers is negatief met al die wapens behalwe twee 9mm Parabellum gemantelde koeels wat as gevolg van die afwesigheid van merke en die beskadigde toestand en groefbreedte ooreenstem met een 9mm Parabellum wapen Z88, lab no 16094 of '94."
The question,
"Now according to the summary which was handed in, lab no 16094, refers to two guns which were received from marchers on the day - not received, taken from marchers on the day?"
answer,
"Dit is korrek Edele."
So, two of the exhibits which were found at the scene by Superintendent Du Plessis were linked to a 9mm Parabellum which was seized from marchers later on in the day, that very day, the 28th of March 1994.  In fact, if you have a look at page 18 of this memorandum, there's an annexure E, this is a document which was handed in by counsel for the Police during the inquest, "vuurwapens vanaf optoggangers verkry", these were the guns that were seized from marchers at one point or at one time or another during the course of the 28th of March 1994.  You'll see right at the top, "Zastawa 7.65 mm and 1 .38 tuisgemaak", those were the two guns that were found at Shell House that were retrieved at Shell House.  And then if you have a look at ...(intervention) 
...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: That's correct, yes, thank you.  Second last, on page 18, Z88 which was seized from a P Kwanke in Main Road some time later in the day, so that particular person had obviously gone from Shell House and was wandering somewhere around Main Road when he was arrested by the Police.  While we're on annexure E, annexure E details all the guns, the three pages, that were picked up by the Police.
...(inaudible)

MR BERGER: No, from the marchers only.
...(inaudible)