Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That would have been an advantage to us Chairperson, until the time that we arrested persons with whom she had dealings with and the persons of whom she had information about.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, is it not also so that the way this operation must have worked is that the people from C1 who were the people who had infiltrated the unit, would have regular contact with those of you who were slightly higher, possibly you refer to them as handlers and then the handlers through to you, so that you knew at all times, you were aware of what information was being obtained from that information process.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Botha dealt with them Chairperson, Mr Botha dealt with the C1 members.

MR WILLS: So you are under the impression that Botha must have had regular meetings with those C1 members in order to find out the information that they were receiving?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that if the information that some of these informers were getting was that the deceased was becoming suspicious, in probability that would have been, that fact would have been communicated to Mr Botha.  it's an important fact.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I believe so, Chairperson, I don't know about it.

MR WILLS: Now, you as a Security Policeman, in a situation and this is, I am posing a hypothetical situation, if the person who you're watching is getting suspicious, what would you do in a situation like that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It depends on circumstances, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well, let's put you in these circumstances.  You've got two or three people infiltrating that network.  She's asking questions about the whereabouts of people.  She's getting suspicious, she's saying things that the Security Branch might be onto her.  What would you do?  Let's say you received that information today and you were still carrying on with the operation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I think what happened in this instance was that she was encouraged to disclose the addresses of the persons or arrange a meeting for these persons so that they ...(intervention).

MR LAX: With respect Mr du Preez, the whole question here is now, your operation's in jeopardy, the subject of your operation is becoming suspicious, you get that information, now the first thing is, you'll concede, your agents are in danger, number 1, because she's beginning to suspect something funny is going on here.  Do you concede that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is what was said.

MR LAX: In that context you really only have two courses of action.  You either remove your agents, right, and cancel the operation.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Correct.

MR LAX: Or you bring the subject in.  That's another possibility and probably a more reasonable one if you want to try and get information out of her, particularly in the light of the fact that, as you've said, your real aim was to get the terrorists that she was the contact for.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in this instance I think it was that she was pressurised to arrange a meeting with this person, that it had been brought forward and that pressure be placed on her to arrange a meeting.

MR LAX: As Col Botha told us yesterday, there wasn't much progress being made in that regard.  What's the next best thing after that?  Bring her in.  Try and get the information out of her yourself, because your agents aren't having any luck.  Not so?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It's a possibility, Chairperson, but that is not what I understood when we went for the operation, or for the arrest.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you saying that you did not know that she was suspicious?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Well I put it to you that you knew very well that day that she was going to be arrested.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You'd planned in fact to arrest her in order to get the information from her, simply because your askaris and informers were not succeeding.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, I want to concentrate for a while on the circumstances of the arrest.  Tell me exactly who approached the car and what each person did.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot recall exactly which person was in which position because I cannot even recall in which position Khubeka had sat, whether she was in the front of the vehicle or in the back of the vehicle.  What I do recall is that we approached the vehicle and opened the doors to find terrorists and what  - in the end there was only Khubeka which was the stranger in the car and I can recall that after she had climbed out of the vehicle, I grabbed her from behind and took her to the kombi.  I half lifted her and dragged her to the kombi and this happened very quickly.

MR WILLS: Now you were expecting to arrest terrorists.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Did you have a back-up vehicle?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Not that I can recall.  We were all in the kombi.

MR WILLS: Were you - did  you approach the vehicle with your arms drawn, I mean you weapons drawn?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: What time of the day was this?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was dusk.

MR WILLS: So in the full view of the public?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Can you not even recall how many people approached the car?  You see, I mean, you were here with me in the hearing we did on the Shabalala's and there was evidence exactly how that arrest took place.  One person, I think it was Botha, put the gun in the stomach of the person and other people did other things.  That's the sort
of thing that I'm trying to establish here.  Can't you remember anything about the actual arrest apart from your own involvement?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, that is how I testified what I can recall of the incident.

MR WILLS: Was the car surrounded?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think we opened all the doors simultaneously and each person went to a door.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez can you recall the date on which this happened?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I don't have any recollection.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any idea about the time of the year?  What time of the year it was that happened?  What the month was?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So could it have been either December or July, as far as you're concerned?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, from evidence later I saw that it was March/April.  I don't have any recollection about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what day of the week it was?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember whether it was a working week day, a Monday to Friday, or whether it occurred over the weekend?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, but I saw that Botha said that he thought it was a Sunday.  I don't have any recollection of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall whether there was rush-hour traffic going by, that Battery Beach is just near the main road to La Lucia, isn't it, or Umhlanga Rocks, kwaMashu and those places?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I can recall that it was quiet, there were very few or no public in the area at all.  In our immediate vicinity there were no people who took note of us.