Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

KHOZA MGOJO: But you signed, let me read from your statement on the 30th of July 1995.  There is your signature there, the third paragraph from the bottom reads it is on the 3rd that Maqina came to Kliptown and wanted his firearm from Mbatha.  Mbatha gave him his firearm, we had a few drinks together.  A while later we were arrested.  Is it true that you were arrested here in Johannesburg?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Maqina is not here.

KHOZA MGOJO: Is it true or is it correct that you were arrested here in Johannesburg?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We were arrested in Marafe the two of us, there was not that person.

KHOZA MGOJO: Now according to this statement this is what has been said and you signed it, who wrote that statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I don't know.

KHOZA MGOJO: But there is your signature there?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: This is why I keep reiterating the fact that there are so many statements that were shown to me and they added their own versions.

KHOZA MGOJO: You kept signing all the statements yourself?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Mgojo.  Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Dlamini, I counted you made a statement on the day you were arrested, the next day you made another statement, is that right?  You made one first to Van Zyl and the next day you made one to Mr Zeelie, is that right?  You can't remember?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I can't remember.

YASMINE SOOKA: In your first statement you made, you mention somebody called Johannes.  Why did you mention a Johannes and who was Johannes?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I don't know Johannes.

YASMINE SOOKA: So why did you put his name in your statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: This is why I explained that I don't know Johannes.  I was arrested with Mbatha.

YASMINE SOOKA: When you went to court, did someone represent you like Mr Miller is representing you now?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I had a State Attorney who was representing me.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you tell him that you had made two statements to the police already?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I made one statement, I only submitted one statement in Brixton.  There is no other place where I have submitted my statement.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you tell your State Attorney that you had made a statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We did not understand each other with my Attorney, because I said he should show me or take out the statement first from the Brixton police station and said I should leave that statement alone, I should forget that.  I said I cannot be able to go on and testify about things that I don't know.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you tell the Judge in the Supreme court that you had made a statement to the Brixton police where you told them that you had been asked to kill Dr Asvat for money and that you had been instructed to do so by Mrs Mandela?  Did you tell the Judge that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: As I explained, I did not even say anything in front of the Judge at the Supreme court.  I was only convicted on a different matter.  They just said I shall say whatever I wanted to say.

YASMINE SOOKA: Isn't it true that you killed Dr Asvat for money and not because of any political reason?  It was for the money alone?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, it was for the money alone.

YASMINE SOOKA: So there is no political motive associated with that act?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: It was not politically motivated.  I was an IFP member.

YASMINE SOOKA: Tell me, in the statement that you gave to our investigators, at paragraph 59 it says, in 1996 Mr Moodley came back to inform me that Botha Swala had disclosed in his statement that the two firearms I spoke about in my statement, were in possession of Maqina.
 Did Mr Moodley tell you that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.

YASMINE SOOKA: So why is that mentioned in your statement?  Did Mr Moodley ever tell you that he went to meet Swala Botha and that he took a statement from him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I disliked Mr Moodley at that time, I did not even want to see him or have anything to have with him since they electrocuted me.

YASMINE SOOKA: So what is in this statement is not true?  You don't know whether Mr Moodley took a statement from Swala Botha?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mrs Mkhize?

MS MKHIZE: Mr Dlamini, just a few questions just to straighten up your record because you tell us you were made to submit many statements.  You say you used to be a UDF follower in Nongoma or a sympathiser.   At the time the UDF was not existing, can you explain or shed more light?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: There were people that arrived from (indistinct) and various places and I was a person who used to follow.
 I used to be a person who sympathise with the UDF group and there was one boy who joined UDF from Umlazi and he tried to form UDF in the area and he had no membership cards and we were quite a group of school boys and we liked UDF.

MS MKHIZE: Do we agree about the fact that the UDF was not existing at that time?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, the boy came and he said he was UDF and he wants to form UDF.

MS MKHIZE: And about Nongoma, Nongoma was predominantly Inkatha area.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That place is quite big.  Very much massive and there were many different groups.

MS MKHIZE: You say you lived in Mzamomhle and quite a number of your friends were ANC members?  Was there an ANC organisation at the hostel or were many of the ANC hostel dwellers?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I had many friends from the location, not from the hostel.

MS MKHIZE: I thought you said you did not know the location very well, or the sections very well?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.  They used to come and visit me at the hostel.

MS MKHIZE: In the other statement, you make mention of something else.  I don't know, maybe this one is this morning's statement.
 The point of departure is it is not true that  I met Jerry Richardson prior to the incident which I am about to describe?   You say from the statement that we had yesterday Botha talked and they looked as if they were friends, or they were used to each other?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is not true.

MS MKHIZE: So the other one, it was not submitted by you?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, they just wrote their own version, especially Moodley.  Moodley wrote so many statements that I did not know because he wanted us, myself and Jerry to appear as if we knew each other, that was his problem.

MS MKHIZE: From your opinion could it be that Mrs Mandela was careless about the fact that she spoke to you about murder and not even knowing you very well and coming from a different political organisation also?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, she was careless in that regard, but Botha Swala was the cause of it.

MS MKHIZE: What do you mean?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I may not explain much, but since I was attracted and motivated by money, I did not even know as to which political organisation she belonged to.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: Mr Chairperson, three short questions, I promise you.

CHAIRPERSON: No speeches?

DR RANDERA: I promise.  Mr Dlamini, I know you said earlier on that you have difficulty being honest with other people but yourself to Mr Semenya.  Now I want you to please try and be as honest with us as possible and don't feel under pressure.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.