Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairman, it concludes my applications for the day.  My colleague, Mr Sibeko will be taking over.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, the applicant is Mr Thami Mahlala.  His application appears on page 72.  The application number is AM7628/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is he Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: He is with Prison Authorities.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, will you see to it that the shackles are taken off while they are sitting in this hall please?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I actually have informed Prison Authorities previously.  I know in the previous hearings you have informed me similarly.  I informed them, I don't know why it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Keep an eye on it please.

ADV STEENKAMP: I do apologise Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, what is the position with his ID number?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, Mr Mahlala informed me that he never possessed any ID book before, as a result he doesn't have any identity document, he only knows his birth date.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is?

MR SIBEKO: The date of birth is the 28th of October 1970.

CHAIRPERSON: You better inform him if he intends to vote, he better have an ID document with a bar code.

MR SIBEKO: I will do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mahlala, what language would you prefer to use?

THAMI MAHLALA: Zulu.

THAMI MAHLALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Would your incarceration at the moment, have anything to do with your application?  In other words are you serving sentence for the acts and offences for which you are now applying for amnesty or is it for something else?

THAMI MAHLALA: I am in jail because of the incident that took place in the township, the incident that I am applying for surely.  I am applying for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, I don't know if the applicant understood me correctly, because I didn't quite follow his answer.  Are you able to tell me whether he is in prison solely for the acts for which he applies for amnesty?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, those are my instructions.  All the acts that he has been sentenced for, and other acts that he is applying for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the applicant applies for amnesty for murder, one count of murder, one count of attempted murder, one count of armed robbery, unlawful possession of firearms, one count.  I don't have the number, but it is a number of arms and one count of attempted escape from lawful custody.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be for political reasons?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, the facts relating to it, will indicate that it was somewhat political.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to be very interested to hear that.

MR SIBEKO: May I proceed?  Sir, were you a member of the Self Defence Unit in Tokoza?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I was within the Youth Congress in Tokoza.

MR SIBEKO: Yes, were you at any stage part of the Self Defence Unit in Tokoza?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Which Section were you operating as a member of the Self Defence Unit?

THAMI MAHLALA: Slovo Section.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Unit?

THAMI MAHLALA: In 1990.

MR SIBEKO: At that time, who was your Commander?

THAMI MAHLALA: My Commander was Levi, his assistant was Jamani.

MR SIBEKO: Now, do you by any chance have other names for Levi?

THAMI MAHLALA: Molefi.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, do you confirm that the offences that I have read out, are the offences that you are applying for amnesty for?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I confirm that.

MR SIBEKO: Right, on page 73 paragraph 9(a), you indicate that the acts or omissions or offences is possession of illegal firearms, murder and stolen vehicle and the dates you refer to as the 30th October 1992, do you have any problems in letting us know what actually happened?

THAMI MAHLALA: No, I don't have a problem.  I can explain.

MR SIBEKO: Proceed sir.

THAMI MAHLALA: On the 29th of October 1992, it was in the morning, Levi came to me.  He asked me, saying that I should accompany him to go to where we were going to fetch a car and go out on our way to collect firearms.  Therefore we went to Alrode.  We arrived at Alrode, we sat there.  People were getting in buying things, getting in and out and one man who was wearing a two piece, got out of the place and got into a car.  As he was about to start his car, Levi approached him and pointed a firearm at him, and I was already close to that person.
	He raised up his hands inside the car, he opened the car and went out.  We got into the car and I climbed in the passenger seat.  We went back to the township.

MR SIBEKO: You say on that particular morning ...

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the robbery?

THAMI MAHLALA: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the robbery of the motor vehicle?

MR SIBEKO: Now you say on that particular morning, Levi who happens to be Molefi, and you said he was your Commander, came to your place, correct?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, he came to me as a Commander.

MR SIBEKO: You said he told you that you have to go to Alrode in order to get the car?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: And then you say the car that you were actually looking for, should be a company car?

THAMI MAHLALA: It will be a company car, any Contractor's car.

MR SIBEKO: Then when you arrived, you waited until you saw one man who was there to buy something?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, we arrived and waited at the place and we were waiting for any car which belonged to Contractors or a company and it so happened that this gentleman got out and got into this particular car and as I explained before, we pointed a firearm at him, he raised his hands.  We got in and we drove to the township.

MR SIBEKO: The person who got into the car, after this man alighted, is it Mlefi?  Is it Levi?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Levi also known as Mlefi?  Is that his proper name?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: You occupied the passenger seat and then you left?

THAMI MAHLALA: Yes, I was sitting on the passenger seat.

MR SIBEKO: What was the purpose of you getting this  motor vehicle?

THAMI MAHLALA: The purpose for acquiring this car, was to use it to go to Duduza, to go and fetch firearms.  My Commander had already informed me that there is some operation that we had to do, but we have to first go and collect firearms and carry out the work in the evening.

MR SIBEKO: Right, you got the car, what happened thereafter?

THAMI MAHLALA: We took the car and kept it somewhere.  In the evening Levi came together with Jamani and Vusi.  They found me outside, they called me and I approached them.  In front it was Levi who was driving and Jamani was the passenger and Vusi was sitting at the back and I got at the back together with Vusi.
	We drove to Duduza and when we arrived in Duduza, Levi came out of the car.  He got out of the car and he said to Vusi are you armed with a firearm, and Vusi said yes.   He said if ever we got attacked, we protect ourselves with these firearms.  He went into one shack and one man by the name of Zinto came out.  This person came to meet Levi.
	I know this person because I met him once in the township.  At a particular moment, they both went into that shack.  Levi came out, holding a bag.  He opened the door and threw it into the front seat of the car and he said to us, if anything disturbs us on the way, we will have to fight, because if we had to arrive in the township without the firearms, they will say we have misused the funds.
	He got into the car, started the car and we left.

MR SIBEKO: Yes?

THAMI MAHLALA: We left and before we arrived at Vosloorus, we found a roadblock.  We had to turn back.  We turned back and we stopped at Dawn Park and parked our car under a light.
	We started discussing as to how we were going to do it.  We had to decide whether we should wait until the roadblock is over or we should use another route, and before the lapse of time, about three or five minutes, another car came and stopped from behind.  It was a private car.

MR SIBEKO: Yes?