Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-08

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: As far as I can remember, in my whole life of getting in and out of Sanlam Building, and in and out of Louis le Grange, never ever have I seen Nieuwoudt or him alone, except on the day he spoke about - I spoke about, when he called me in and said to me have you laid charges against me.  And if I have told him, there is no doubt in my mind, he would have had a lot of supporters to assisting him in dealing with me on that matter.  There was no need to deal with me and he didn't need to have another person.

MR NYOKA: That is all, your Worship.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van der Merwe?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE
	Thank you, Mr Commissioner.  Mr Jack, you and your 
attorney have given me some notes this morning, which is your affidavit and the other note is a summary of a consultation between yourself and your legal representative, which I thank you for.  Are those two documents correct?  The contents, is it correct?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: The contents are correct, yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You have read it all, you are happy and that it is correct?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I have read them all, I wrote it.

MR VAN DER MERWE: By the way, you are not planning a future in politics, because it seems to me ... (intervention).

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: You what?

MR VAN DER MERWE: You are planning a future in politics?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Do I plan ...?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No, it is just a light-hearted moment.  Do you plan a future in politics?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: No, that's none of your business anyway.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You are doing quite well.  (Laughter).

CHAIRPERSON: He is asking you a friendly question.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think you should give him a friendly reply.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let us come back to the serious business.  In this document which says biographical profile, which is the consultation notes, on the first page.  You allege that you were terrorised by Nieuwoudt, Roelofse, Tungata and Celo. Is that correct?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Come again?  Oh, yes, ja. That's correct, that statement, terrorised by them.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes. By that you mean that Mr Nieuwoudt was on your neck all the time 24 hours a day?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Ja.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And by that statement you mean Mr Nieuwoudt was on your neck 24 hours a day and really making it difficult for you.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: He has made it difficult for me.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Right. Now the allegation or your evidence that you gave here, you have changed that word terrorised to torture, which seems to be quite a significant change.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: It is not a significant change. I used them inter-changing maybe.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes. Let me ask you, Mr Jack, you were educated up to what standard at school?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I was what?

MR VAN DER MERWE: What standard is your level of school education?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Can you bring this thing closer to you? Okay,  you can speak.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Let me rephrase the question. I know that you are a well-educated man. Would you care to inform us what your qualifications are?

MR VAN DER MERWE: I have got tertiary education.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, give it to us, please.  Tell us where you were educated. I know you were educated outside South Africa, so please tell us.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I was educated in (indistinct) School, I was educated in England.

MR VAN DER MERWE: What qualifications did you obtain in England?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I obtained a BA (Hons) in Economics and Development Studies.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Good. So I can take it as granted that you understand and you master the English language?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: It is not my language.  (Laughter). I would never master it.

MR VAN DER MERWE: That was not the question, Mr Jack.  The question is you understand and master the language because you obtained a Master's degree in that language.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: What I am saying, that language remains not my language. I would say that as far as Xhosa is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think you had better just answer directly, please. We are wasting a lot of time unnecessarily.  You are trying to suggest - that you are very well-educated with the English language.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that correct?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes, I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's answer it that way.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Thank you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Good. Then you will also have to agree with me that tortured and terrorised is definitely not the same word?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I agree with that, ja.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I cannot hear your answer, your hand is in the way?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes, I agree with that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Good.  Would you care to explain why this is referred to as terrorised and whether, why there was no mention made of torture?  Was this something that you devised while you gave evidence here?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I didn't devise that. The fact is of Nieuwoudt's action have always consisted of the two words or the definitions of both.  They would terrorise you, they would torture you, and he has done that both, and if you want me to tell you about it, I will tell you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, you have had your chance.  Now what I am trying to ascertain from you, by implication made that clear, that there is a quite clear distinction between terrorise and torture. Do you agree with that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he has already said that he agrees with it.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you.  Would you care to explain to me why you didn't, why there is no mention in this document of torturing?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: In which document?

MR VAN DER MERWE: The document that you have in front of you.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: No, I mean, this is a document that explains the modus operandi of Deon Nieuwoudt, a person, as I told you that I will use terrorised as the actions that Nieuwoudt was doing, and I would use torture to mean more or less the same, and I think I doubt that you are going to benefit anything, out of that question, because terrorising as far as I am concerned, was one of the hallmarks of Nieuwoudt's activities. Torturing was part of that, and as I show you here, he has tortured me, and I have told you he terrorised me by telling me that if he gave me four choices and please, if you don't understand those four choices means terrorising somebody, excuse me.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Van der Merwe you must be content with the answer that he is using these two words interchangeably. He is not drawing a distinction in his mind.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Ja.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Commissioner.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Ja, I am not writing a dictionary.  (Laughter).

MR VAN DER MERWE: Would you agree with me that it was Mr Nieuwoudt's job to, as a member of the Security Police, to oppose all activists who were endangering his government and his political system?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Oh, yes, of course, I do.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And if he had to use threats to try and deter you from being politically active, would you agree that he was doing his job?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I agree with that personally.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You also mentioned that Mr Nieuwoudt was not a talkative person. Is that correct?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Now would you expect a person of his stature, keeping in mind that he is not talkative, to boast to someone who is an activist, to boast about people who has disappeared?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Oh, yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Or people that he has assaulted?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I have told you that he has done that. He has done that, and I say to you, Nieuwoudt was not a man that will go and talk about and just make empty claims. That's the point I am making about that.