Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: There was a period in which there was a request from the police and an affirmation by the Professor Forensic Medicine at that time, that Gale Street does all the bodies that were shot by, all the people, examination of the people and the bodies that were shot by the police.
	It may have been in that time that Mr Ismail was talking about.  There came a stage that we were doing so many at Gale Street, that we had to put a stop to that and say "consult us when you've got a problem.  You look at the body, decide whether you can do it, if you've got a problem, call us and then we will help you, or call us any way and we will tell you what to do and what to make sure of, make sure you have photography, etc" and we then went into consultation.
	We didn't accept or receive all the bodies at that stage, at that eventual stage.

MS THABETHE: Would this have included the period of 1987?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.  I remember this because Prof Botha, who initiated that process, was our Head of Department, at that stage.

MS THABETHE: Now, coming back to Dr Chetty's report.  There are a few discrepancies with Dr Chetty, for example with regard to height, he has indicated, or he has recorded that the height was 1.6 metre and yours is 1.35 to 1.42?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Can you explain why there would be such a discrepancy?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Well, I don't believe that height.  I think strongly that this is a mere estimate.  I would rather depend or rely upon my measured height, it is a scientific calculation, proven scientifically and although it gives me a range, I know that I've got 95 percent confidence in that, that the height would fall in that range that I have given.
	I don't believe that this is the correct height, I really believe it is an estimate.

MS THABETHE: What would be your reason for not believing, for believing that it is an estimate?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: First of all, as I mentioned just earlier on that I know what was common practice and I know it is quite common practice to simply estimate a height, just because you have a space on a form, to fill.
	You will remember that I mentioned there was no insight as to the purpose of the post-mortem report.  Secondly, in a skeletonised body, may I ask respectfully, how long, if this is the alleged deceased that we are looking about, we accept, let's assume that this is the right person, how long was this body laying ...

CHAIRPERSON: The body, according to the evidence, was laying in the veld approximately just short of two months.  It was disposed of some time in May, around the 19th, somewhere, the 20th, let's say the 19th to the 25th of May and it was found on the 15th of July, so it was winter months, exposed in the veld.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: It was above ground level?

CHAIRPERSON: In Umbayi, above ground level, Umbayi area.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Thank you Mr Chairman, that does support what I was going to say, with two months of exposure and decomposition, progressive decomposition, even in winter, in this coastal region, I would expect the skeleton to be almost completely disarticulated, that means bones out of joint with each other, disarticulation.
	If those bones were scooped, even scooped up very, very carefully by the persons at the scene, in the transport and by the time it got to the doctor, those bones will be in a jumble, because two months of decomposition, which means seven weeks of decomposition, there would be almost total soft tissue lost.
	Therefore you would not be able to get an anatomical height from head to toe because the body wouldn't be in a straight, neat position unless of course the doctor was called to the scene and examined the bones.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem from what we've got and I am just, not making any findings here, but in my belief, it can be disputed, is that the body was found by the police upon receiving of a report, the police collected the body and took it to the Verulam mortuary.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That was where it was I believe, it was first seen by Dr Chetty, if it is the same one.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Right.

MR LAX: Can I just ask you something, apropos the height and all these questions of disarticulation, etc.  Would this discrepancy of 1.6 versus your calculated height as such have to be a factor that for example would make you conclude that this couldn't possibly be the same body?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No.  Simply because I know that the practice in those days, well even today in some of the peripheral areas in the province, is that it is purely estimated height, I wouldn't place any reliance upon that.  I would in fact, trying to decide whether this is the right body or not, I would disregard the height completely, in this circumstances, skeletonised body.

MR LAX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Lax, there is a weight there of 60 kg.  Did you weight the bones at all, Dr Naidoo, I cannot recall?  I am just wondering how much would a skeleton weigh?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: To be correct here, my report does not give a weight, simply because I left it out of my schedule of observations.
	I believe as I do now, that it wouldn't have contributed to this, it is dry bone weight.  In fact I believe that 60 kg is also very - estimate.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that might include, we don't know, the ...

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Soft tissue and clothing.

CHAIRPERSON: And clothing.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Clothing yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I was just wondering what the bones that you were confronted with, would have weighed more or less, how far out is this 60 kg?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Oh, I see.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, we don't know what the weight of the clothing is, but that might be giving an indication how much soft tissue there might have been at that time?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.  Unfortunately I have not recorded a weight.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: And, why do you think Dr Chetty missed the gunshot wound on this skeleton?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Two reasons, two possible reasons.  Firstly, with due respect to Dr Chetty, I am not reflecting on his capacity, but I think there was an inadequate post-mortem, it wasn't properly done, that is one reason.  I think maybe just a viewing as Mr Ismail said, would have been done.
	Secondly, I, what happens after death is that the skin, the skin containing the scalp, tends to most commonly dry out and desiccate and it shrinks and forms a leather cap on the skull.  What happens is, that is several weeks afterwards, of course by the time I saw this, 10 years later, it is a different picture.  But immediately in the first few weeks, it forms a leather cap and it is frequently a very nice position to identify still remaining hair.
	You can easily overlook or mask a gunshot wound, if you don't remove the scalp tissue.

MS THABETHE: And do you want to comment on the cause of death as undetermined?  Would you say that makes a discrepancy between your report and his?  The fact that he says the cause of death is undetermined and you say the cause of death is a gunshot wound.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.   I think for the same reason as I mentioned the inadequate nature of their observations, I would not rely upon their cause of death.  I have seen even similar misses, shall we say, deficiencies, in fresh bodies, so I would still think that, I wouldn't be able to exclude that this is the same body that I am doing, simply because of the way that they did post-mortems in the past.

MS THABETHE: Just for, you know, information, what does it mean to say that the cause of death is undetermined?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: He wasn't able to determine the anatomical cause of death.

MS THABETHE: Okay.   Please bear with me, Mr Chairman.