Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR LAX: Okay, well that's subtly different.

MS THABETHE: Okay, okay, thank you Mr Lax.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Now I'm, now I'm mixed up.

MR LAX: The question is, if Shabalala was of no use to you, because all the information was going to come from Ndaba and that's what you were told and that's what you surmised you told us, what is the point in holding Shabalala, continuing to hold him?  Have I put the question correctly?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Lax, thank you.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, Mr Chairman, I really don't know the particulars why we held onto Mr Shabalala that long.  Mr Botha might know why he was kept behind for so long.

MS THABETHE: Mr Wasserman, in your evidence you have indicated that Mr Shabalala's head was down when he was arrested.  Would you say he saw what happened to Ndaba thereafter?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He wouldn't have seen what happened after I had his head down.

MS THABETHE: Right.  Then my question with regard to that is, on paragraph 12 of your statement, you say the problem became compounded when it appeared that Shabalala in effect suspected Ndaba of working with the police.  When did Shabalala - and then you go on to say, "I remember him saying as much", when did Shabalala say this?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It would have been one of the nights, or one of the days, a couple of days after we had taken him to the safe-house in Durban.

MS THABETHE: And to whom did he say this?  Did he say this to you?  Or were you present when he said this?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He said it to me.  I believe he said it to some of the other people that were there as well.

MS THABETHE: Maybe I'm confused a bit, I thought your evidence had indicated you did not speak to Shabalala and Shabalala did not speak to you back, so I'm just a bit confused, at what stage did Shabalala speak to you and say that he's suspecting Ndaba might be working with you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, after four days, some form of chatting did take place, but there was nothing - there was no questioning on MK activities or anything like that.  There was - within four days one has to say something to one another, but it wasn't discussions, interrogations, interviews, it was nothing like that.

MS THABETHE: Yes, I must say I've got difficulty understanding that, that - I don't know where you say it, but you say he did not co-operate with you, you went in and you went out, there was no conversation and then all of a sudden he says that he suspects that Ndaba is working with the police.  Do you have any response to that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I cannot recall, I don't know if other people said to me that they've spoken to Shabalala and he's of the opinion that he was set up by Ndaba.  I really don't recall.  I spoke to  hundreds of MK operators.  I cannot exactly recall who said what here but whilst in that house over that period of time, I was informed or I came to the conclusion that Shabalala did indeed at one time have an conclusion that Ndaba may have set him up for an arrest.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't that Ndaba was an informer, but that Ndaba had set him up, but from the facts that Ndaba was the person who apparently led the police to him.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, as an informer yes.

MR LAX: Can I just raise something here?  You may have formed that impression.  I'd like to suggest to you that its highly unlikely he said to you he suspects Ndaba.  no operative's going to give away the fact that he suspects the other guy you've got there.  It's highly unlikely.  You see, the reason I say this is that you didn't question Shabalala.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Sir.

MR LAX: And all you heard about were the attempts by the C20 people to ask him certain questions.  He was very uncooperative.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR LAX: Why would he then admit that he suspected Shabalala?  Sorry that he suspected Ndaba of selling him out because by doing that he's automatically admitting to being in a certain position.  Do you see what I'm saying?

CHAIRPERSON: Setting him up.

MR LAX: Same thing, setting him up, it works the same way both ways.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I cannot really put a state of affairs before the Committee of exactly what happened there.  During those couple of days I was informed exactly how, or if the question came to me, but Shabalala had formed the opinion or the conclusion or been told by a slip up of C20, I don't know, I cannot pass comment, but that Ndaba was involved in his capture and therefore working with us.

MS THABETHE: Except that Mr Wasserman, unless this paragraph doesn't give the clear picture.  You see this paragraph 12 says
"The problem became compounded when it appeared that Shabalala in fact suspected Ndaba of working with the police"
And then  you go on to say:
"I remember him saying as much."
So it suggests that you actually heard Shabalala saying this.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, it does suggest that, but it might have been somebody saying to me that he had said that.

MS THABETHE: So it's not true that you actually heard him yourself saying it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I cannot give that evidence before the Committee, that I specifically heard that.

MS THABETHE: Now my other problem that I would like you to clarify for me with regard to this is, how could Shabalala reach that conclusion or on what basis would Shabalala reach the conclusion that Ndaba was working with the police because when he was arrested, he did not see what happened to Ndaba and the evidence is that they were both detained in the same safe house, so my question is on what basis would he reach this decision because he did not see Ndaba being arrested.  He did not see what happened to Ndaba and he might have known that Ndaba is detained in the same safe-house with him.  I don't know whether I have to repeat my question.  My question is on what basis did Shabalala reach that conclusion that Ndaba is working for the police?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I am not able to state on what basis if it was in fact so.  I don't know on what basis Shabalala would have known that.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR VISSER: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

MR LAX: You said that when you first saw Ndaba, you didn't - he wasn't ever assaulted in your presence.  What was his condition on that morning or that afternoon, early afternoon?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, when I arrived there, he was sitting in a chair, no signs of assault.

MR LAX: Now, you've told us about what happened to Shabalala when Ndaba gave the signal and you all converged on the vehicle and what happened to Ndaba in that moment of convergence?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I'm unable to say where he was.  I entered straight away into the vehicle at the back, so I don't know what happened to Mr Ndaba, whether he walked away, ran away, I don't know, I didn't visibly see what happened to him, I was putting all my attention onto Mr Shabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: Had he not been in the vehicle?  Had he been standing next to the vehicle?

MR LAX: No he was sitting in the front passenger seat.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, he was in the vehicle Sir.

MR LAX: So, you don't recall how he got out of the vehicle, if anyone took him out, if any words were spoken to him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, he was the subject of Mr van der Westhuizen's attention, not of mine.

MR LAX: When did van der Westhuizen then get into the vehicle?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, he got into the vehicle after Mr Shabalala was in the back with myself and du Preez.

MR LAX: And Botha?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I never saw him until the safe-house.