Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, you have previously been given a document called TRC52 and you have also been given an affidavit by Dr Immelman.
 I put to you that TRC52 read with Dr Immelman's affidavit, clearly indicates that you were involved in attempting to murder people by usage of toxins concealed in every day substances such as beer with thallium as set out in TRC52, whisky in paraquat, acid in whisky and even more ominous, that cholera was cultured on a large scale on your instructions, for usage by agents.  That you as number one Project Officer and number two, as the person who directly was responsible for giving instructions to Dr Immelman, are responsible for all these dastardly toxins hidden in everyday substances.  What is your response to that?

MR BASSON: Mr Chairman, ...

MR CILLIERS: May I at this instance, I don't want to create the impression that I am prescribing to the witness, but if we are going to do it question by question, I am sure that there will be questions that can be answered.
 May I then after each question, indicate to my client when I think this will fall outside the extent of his problem?   But according to me, my client can answer this question without the previous problem, but I don't it to appear as if I am giving him the answers.
 May I please advise him after every question, whether I think - you don't have to adjourn, five seconds will be enough, and then to advise him.   We are in a difficult position, but it seems to me that he can answer this question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cilliers, I remarked earlier in the day that your client is far more intelligent than you give him credit for.  He was beginning to answer this question, because I think he appreciated it is one of those questions that he can answer without prejudice.  I take your point however.

MR CILLIERS: I want to make it clear that if I will speak to him, Mr Vally previously commented ...

CHAIRPERSON: As long as you don't testify in his place.

MR CILLIERS: As it pleases you.  What I am going to do after each question ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, not after every question.  I think there are questions which it will be palpable he can reply to like the questions that he has been replying to all day long, and all you can do, is to say can I object to that question ...

MR CILLIERS: I don't want to object to a question, I just want to advise him that you can answer this question.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we limb on and we will see how it goes?

MR BASSON: Mr Chairman, I categorically deny that I was involved in the execution or planning or preparation of any substances with the wilful purpose to do any harm to any person.
 Regarding the cholera Mr Vally mentioned, it is one of the points I want to emphasise, is one of the weak points of the Investigative Unit.  Just to allege that I would have used cholera to kill anybody can be verified within five minutes.  Mr Vally, can go out of here and contact the Department of Health, every cholera case is written down right through the world, and I want to bring it to your attention that in the last 20 years, not one case of cholera was made known and the last cholera epidemic in South Africa was in 1985/1986.
 Since then, there were not 15 cases of cholera in South Africa per year.  Mr Vally, he repeatedly mentioned this genocide and I want him to ask him where did that happen?  Every case of cholera in South Africa, is recorded by the World Health Organisation and they can identify the origin of every cholera bacteria.
 There is a certain Epidemiological handbook, textbook and as from Egypt to Mozambique, they can trace this.  So I deny this.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Dr Wouter Basson, that may well be so, that may well be so, that may be the conclusion that you are able to come to.
 Our enquiry is not so much whether in fact that did happen, I think our enquiry is whether there was a plan to do that, and you are speaking to the person who unfortunately is a lay person as far as medical things are concerned.  You will forgive me if I am one of those who will be gullible when I hear that this was the plan, and I think this is what this entire exercise is intended to do.
 You may not realise it, it is intended exactly for you to be able to give those sort of erudite explanations you are giving, for the benefit not only of the public, not to take everything that they have heard in these proceedings, but also for your benefit.  You are not only saying look, I didn't do it, you are also saying it was not possible to be done.
 When the proposition is being put to you, you must understand it is put to you in context.  It is put to you in the context of evidence that has been led by other scientists or medicals like you, but also there is a suggestion that there is documentary evidence that seems to back that up.
 I think that is the point of the exercise.

MR BASSON: Mr Chairman, I have the biggest respect for your intelligence.  If I thought you did not understand, I would not have said anything.
 What is causing a problem is that this Investigative Unit  could have easily gathered the information.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, leave them alone.  You are now being asked by these gentleman here, and you really can say look, you have been misled Mr Vally.

MR BASSON: Then I am saying at this instance that they have been misled.  In the Southern African context, it is impossible to use cholera to kill masses of people, or even just a few.  Cholera is not such a kind of illness.
 It is very easily traceable and it is very easy even to determine where the cholera bacteria came from.  You can even say from which area it came.  I have studied through the years, but not with the purpose of using cholera.
 In essence the Department of Health is willing to go so far as to say that why there has never been cholera in Namibia and remember the Shonas in South Africa are well suited to cholera, but why there was no cholera is because the South African Defence Force was there, because they saw to it that the local population obtained clean water, they were aware of the dangers of dirty water and where there were people who carried this disease, they had to be treated.
 So what we achieved, was absolutely the opposite.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, this is amazing.  This evidence you are giving us now.  Firstly, factually you are incorrect.  There have been recorded instances of outbreaks of cholera throughout the African continent in the last 20 years, as have appeared in Medical Journals.
 I will ...

MR BASSON: Mr Chairman ...

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, I am not through.  Do you mind?  Secondly, we have had evidence at our Medical hearings, to the effect that the South African government has concealed outbreaks of diseases for public relations purposes and thirdly, we have had enough evidence before this Commission, that the government at a very high level, allegedly going up to the President himself, was engaged in activities which were grossly unlawful and involved human rights violations.  So to pretend that this government has been pure in its motives, is absurd.
 What I am proposing to you number one, is factually it is incorrect to say there have been no cholera outbreaks and secondly, where there have been cholera outbreaks or disease outbreaks in South Africa, the government has hidden it.  Will you answer those two questions please?