Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-09

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.  Yes, just one or two.  Mr Mtamzeli, we understand from reading some of the statements that was given to the Police  by yourself and some of your colleagues, that one of your colleagues had also returned fire from inside the room, is that correct?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: That is correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Why didn't you tell the Committee about that?

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't volunteered his evidence, I was the one who was putting questions to him, so I think that ...

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry, but thank you for confirming that Mr Mtamzeli, because we also understand and I just want to confirm this for the record, that one of your colleagues were shot in the hand by a colleague of yours who was firing shots from inside the room to the outside, is that right?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: Correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is it also possible that the deceased, Mr Mbambo could have been, could have died as a result of gunshot wounds from one of your colleague's firearms?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: I don't think that is the case, because Mbambo was hit from bullets from outside.  It was only one shot coming from my colleagues and it is the one that hit the one in his hand.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

NORMAN ARENDSE: .

ADV SANDI: You say the Police took a long time to arrive.  How long was that?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: The time that elapsed was quite long.  You see the incident happened at two or at about two o'clock and they only came at about four o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any idea where the gunman was when he fired into this room?  Are you able to say where he could have been?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: Those people were directly opposite the door shooting.  It could be that they may have been at about the distance of these video recorders or video things here, these video cameras.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Six or seven paces?  Yes, any other questions you wish to put?

DR TSOTSI: Were there no windows in this room where you were?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: Yes, it does have windows, but they are too high.

DR TSOTSI: Do you mean the people who shot at you could not have used those windows to shoot through, and you too from inside, could not shoot at them, through the windows?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: We would not have been able to use those windows, because they are too high.

DR TSOTSI: This colleague of yours who fired, did he fire through the door?  Through the closed door?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: Correct.

ADV SANDI: Would you say this attack came as a surprise to you?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: It surprised us because we did not know why we were being shot at.

ADV SANDI: You had not been attacked before?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: No.

ADV SANDI: The fact that you were wearing a uniform very similar as you have said, very similar to the one that was being used by the Police, did that not create a perception that you were somehow part of the Police?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: It maybe so.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of you in that room, were armed?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: Two.

CHAIRPERSON: In the course of your duties, do you carry a weapon?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: No.

ADV SANDI: Why were the other two carrying weapons then if you say in the course of your duties, you do not carry weapons?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: There are some who are trained to carry weapons and firearms, and others not.

ADV SANDI: You would not even carry things like batons or sjamboks?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: I was permitted to carry a baton.

DR TSOTSI: Were there none of your group who were permitted to carry firearms?

CHAIRPERSON: He said there were two.

DR TSOTSI: There were two actually carrying firearms?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: But it could have been illegal.

CHAIRPERSON: They were trained.

DR TSOTSI: Trained?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: Yes, there were two people who carried firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: What were your duties, not just you, but your group.  What were your duties?

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: Our duty was to guard that station, to guard the Spoornet's property there.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, thank you.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairperson, can I just ask Mr Mtamzeli how he feels about the attack and how he feels now about his attackers, what his attitude is?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

SIHLANU MTAMZELI: You see, right now because I was not hit and I am free now, and I am happy that I have seen those people who had shot at us, coming to apologise, as a person I forgive them, because I understand that there was conflict at the time.
	They had full rights to do what they did at that time.  I do not have anything else to say, I forgive them.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions that you would like to put arising out of this?

MR MAPOMA: No sir, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.

<UNKNOWN>: .

MR MAPOMA: Sir, I can just point out that unfortunately when I was giving a list of those persons who were on guard there, I forgot or I omitted to mention the name of Jerry Nkobezekwa.  He is one of the five survivors.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the end of the witnesses to give evidence?

MR MAPOMA: That is the end of the evidence Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson my colleague and I, Adv Ngawana, we have together prepared some written submissions.  I have left a copy with you and the Honourable members of the Committee and with my colleagues on that side.
	I propose to follow them as they are set out there.

CHAIRPERSON: There will be no point in burdening the record by leading it, because it all has to be typed again.  We have it, but you can address us if you wish to highlight points.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I will do that.  Thank you for that guidance Chairperson.  Can I just say that except that the evidence that we heard this morning from Mr Meyer and Mr Mtumzeli, except that that really does, with respect, assist the Commission greatly in filling in the picture as it were, about the two incidents in question, they don't effect the written submissions at all.
	In fact, I want to suggest that it supports the disclosure, albeit limited from their point of view, that the applicants have made.  What struck me especially from this morning's evidence, is and I am sure the Committee must have picked this up also in other applications, is the almost total disregard for the plight of black people, including black policemen and officials like Security Guards, when it came to summonsing the assistance of the official Police to come to their assistance.
	They seem to have taken forever to arrive on the scene of various incidents, especially those incidents that took place in the townships.  I would ask the Committee to take note of that.

CHAIRPERSON: It may very well be that the Policemen themselves were black.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well, it seems to me to aggravate the situation that there ...

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you can make a point of that.