Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: Well now before you were congratulated by him, whilst you were still in the company of the defence force people why did you work out this scheme that you should tell the people that these two died because they had been involved in the shooting?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I said in my evidence that we had discussed the fact that they should just stick to the story that the people had died of their wounds on their way to the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?  You had shot them and you thought you were doing right by shooting them, so what was the necessity to hide that?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I took a chance thinking that I would get away with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you realise you had done wrong immediately you had shot them?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I realised that it was wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Immediately after the shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't it occur to you immediately before the shooting that what you are going to do was wrong?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't it occur to you immediately before you shot them that you are going to do something that was wrong?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: In my view they were terrorists and had to be treated as terrorists, but after I shot them I realised that what I had done was wrong, and that's why I kept quiet about it - that's why I did not keep quiet about it but reported it to my superior.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever make a written report about it?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: No Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you know that you had acted unlawfully?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I didn't hear what your answer was Mr Steyn put to a question by one of my colleagues.  You - maybe I should just put the question and you will give the same answer, possibly. When you shot the Mswele, when you shot him, were you aware that he was a member of the ANC?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What made you think that he was a member of the ANC?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: His home where he lived was full of ANC placards and at some stage an ANC membership card with his particulars on it were found in the house.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were they not discovered after he was shot?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: No I knew that, it was a well-known fact that he was the leader of the gang and that he was a registered ANC member.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now all the placards and all the stuff that you are referring to were they not discovered at his place during a search after he was killed?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: No, his house had been searched on quite a few occasions and it had been found on previous occasions.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr D'Oliviera is there any re-examination?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR D'OLIVIERA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Steyn.
MR STEYN EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink ....(no audible recording)

MR BRINK: I hadn't intended calling witnesses but I am told that Inspector Wehbag, who was at the Kwamanambe Police Station is apparently on his way here.  He might be able to assist the Committee in some way or another.  Once we have interviewed him, I propose to have a word with him with my learned friend.  If he can throw light on the matter then he will be called, if not he won't.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  In the meanwhile the statement from which the applicant read out, gave his evidence is going to be copied and made available.  Do you suggest that we stand down for a short while?

MR BRINK: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well we will take a short adjournment until we are ready with the next witness.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Brink.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman as I indicated to the Committee, informally, I had been informed that Inspector Wehbag or Welbag, I am not sure what his name is, had been available to give evidence.  He apparently came here on Monday and was told by someone that he wouldn't be required.  There must have been a misunderstanding because he wouldn't be required on Monday.  In any event my learned friend, Mr d'Oliviera and I have been endeavouring to contact him, he's somewhere in North KwaZulu Natal in Ngwelezana Hospital and would not be available in any event till Friday, which is as we know is impossible.  I have therefore suggested to my colleague that he get an affidavit from Inspector Welbag which I understand may well support the applicant to a large extent and that can then be transmitted to me, copies made and the affidavits will be submitted by me to each member of the Committee, and the original affidavit can be sent down to me by ordinary post or registered post whatever the case may be.
	So at this stage I have no witnesses and I leave it to my colleague to address you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a time by which this affidavit should be handed in?

MR BRINK: I think, depending on Mr D'Oliviera, I think possibly a fortnight should be adequate time in which to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr D'Oliviera you are from that area ...(intervention)

MR D'OLIVIERA: Mr Chairman I can have it done in days, probably by the end of the week it will be on its way.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct)

MR D'OLIVIERA: Yes I undertake to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(microphone not switched on)... that it will expedite the work of the Committee as well.

MR D'OLIVIERA: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that no other witness is going to be called this morning?

MR D'OLIVIERA: No there are no other witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you proceed.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.   I  have made copies of my address to assist the Committee, may I hand them round.
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  The approach which I wish to adopt in this matter is not that which I would employ if I were addressing a court of law.  I am well aware of the legal status of members of this Honourable Tribunal, but submit in order to attain the objects of the Act this Tribunal will adopt its own approach best suited to promote national unity and reconciliation.
	My submission is that the murder and attempted murder by the applicant of the two ANC members in question was, "an act associated with a political objective as contemplated in Section 22(b) of the Act".

ADV DE JAGER: The evidence was that one of them was, and the other was a suspected ANC member isn't it?

MR D'OLIVIERA: That is correct Mr Chairman, but by way of association of the act in question on that date in the evidence given by the applicant it is clear that the likelihood is far greater than not that he was in actual fact associated with the ANC.  The evidence, as you have heard, relates to the question that he was involved in the shoot-out with the police on that particular day; that his place of residence was found to contain arms, petrol bombs; that there was a structure built in the yard, which is obviously similar to an underground shelter with provision made for air vent etc, and I think one can reasonably concede that the other deceased was in fact part and parcel of the other deceased's activities.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr d'Oliviera is there evidence before this Committee that members of the gang were all members of the ANC, do we have such evidence?