Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-24

HASSAN MALL: ... and their dependants that if they do need the assistance of members of the R & R 
Committee, they should know who to contact.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be done Mr Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  Are we ready to proceed?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman we are ready to start.  It is a continuation in the matter of the five 
applicants.  Mr Chairman as agreed in chambers, we are going to stick to the matters as mentioned for 
today, but I want to hasten to mention that inasfar as the Nietverdiend 10 matter is concerned, as I indicated 
in chambers and as it is indicated also on record, that the office of the Attorney General was to assist in the 
investigation pertaining to the determination of the identity of the deceased. 
	Mr Chairman I have been in contact with the office of the Attorney General, they are aware of 
this sitting, I've set them with all the necessary documents, this morning I tried again to contact them to see 
whether they are on the way, but unfortunately I could not get through, I left
messages on the cellphone, Mr Chairman.
	I then propose with respect that the Nietverdiend 10 matter be dealt with later and we continue 
with the schedule
Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Very well.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 3

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we will then start with the first matter for the 
day, that is the killing of Joe Tsele.  I will hand over to my learned friends for the applicants.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman before I start with the evidence 
pertaining to this matter, I just want to raise one aspect and that is that I undertook to provide the  
Committee with amendments to the applications pertaining to specific criminal offences.
	That entails a detailed reference to the sections of the Arms and Ammunitions Act, etc.  I have 
compiled the amendments and I wish to hand them up to the Committee.  Mr Chairman, I don't intend to 
deal with this at all.  You will note that this is a compilation just containing a reference to each schedule 
and then to the paragraph where the offences are set out and then I have just listed the offences that should 
be added to the offences already contained in the applications.
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  I then wish to call Brigadier Cronje.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, you will find this application on page 99 of 
the volume of Brigadier Cronje.  Brigadier, do you have the particular page in front of you, page 99 in your 
application?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do have it in front of me.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, you may use the earphones if anyone asks questions in English.  
Brigadier Cronje, could you indicate to the Committee the nature and the particulars
of this particular act.  I will stop you and ask you questions when we want to add anything.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 4

UNKNOWN: This was during 1968 when Captain Crafford was a member of my staff and he made a 
presentation to me namely that he had heard from a variety of informants that Joe Tsele was the UDF 
organiser and that his house in Bophuthatswana was used as a transfer point for terrorists.
And that from that house he planned acts of terror in South Africa and provided arms and food to terrorists.  
	Subsequently I sent Mamasela to find if he could confirm this information, he returned to me and 
said that the information was in fact correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, can we stop at this point.  Could you indicate or expand for the 
Committee somewhat on the particular acts in which Tsele was involved with regard to your testimony?  
Please expand somewhat on the safe house and the circumstances with regard to that.  And in addition 
whether he was involved in any planning with regard to particular targets.

UNKNOWN: As I have said Your Honour, he planned acts of terror from his home, he also used the 
house as a hiding place for terrorists.  He was also involved in strikes and boycotts.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, were any arms passed through the house or kept in the house, what 
was your information in this regard?

UNKNOWN: Information available to me was that Tsele knew where the caches of arms were and that 
he pointed out 
these particular places to the terrorists.  Yes, these were arms caches.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you remember whether the information was that Tsele was involved in any acts 
direct or indirect where people were killed?
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 5

UNKNOWN: Yes, he was involved in such acts.  I cannot remember any particular such acts, but the 
terrorists who stayed with him as far as our information went, were involved in such acts.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, you may continue with the third paragraph.

UNKNOWN: Myself, Captain Hechter, Mamasela and Captain Crafford, as well as a certain Bafana on 
a particular morning were driving in my official vehicle until we were some distance from Tsele's home, 
where we sent Mamasela and Bafana on to investigate the house and to determine whether any terrorists 
were present there.  While we were waiting for them, the instructions were that if there were any people in 
the house, they had to return and inform us of the state of affairs.
	While we were there, we heard shots.  Mamasela and Bafana returned and informed us that they 
had seen Tsele sitting in front of the television and that they had shot him.  This was contrary to the 
instruction which I had given them.  The instruction was not that they were supposed to shoot the person.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you continue on the next page, this is page 100.  If there is anything that 
you did not give testimony to with regard to, please indicate so.

UNKNOWN: Tsele was involved in arson and strikes and
labour union activities as well as the generalised destabilisation of the State and the purpose of this 
operation was to neutralise Tsele as well as other
terrorists in Tsele's home if they were found there and, to neutralise this terrorist safe house.  It was 
necessary to neutralise Tsele, since he was an activist engaged in a 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 5

UNKNOWN: variety of crimes as mentioned above.  It was in addition necessary to eliminate him in his home.	In 
order to stabilise the area where he operated.  
	In addition the purpose was to remove the use of the ANC of the safe house and other operations 
in this regard.

ADV DU PLESSIS: ... as previously pertaining to the general motivation in respect of intimidation 
and the influence on White voters, etc, if I may take you Brigadier to page 109 in the middle of the page, if 
you could read it for the Committee until page 110.

ADV DE JAGER: Only a moment please Mr du Plessis.  Are you only not guiding the testimony because it 
is irrelevant or because you consider it as having been read?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman as in October during the hearings at that time, some of the motivations 
in these particular acts concur and remain the same.  This testimony has been provided at previous hearings 
and for this reason I will not present it again and again.
	You will note that the testimony from page 102 in the application through to 109, page 109, will 
provide exactly the same motivation with regard to certain actions in terms of intimidation etc.

ADV DE JAGER: You want us to consider this as having been read in this case?

ADV DU PLESSIS: As a matter of course yes, as I remember it 
was the position of the Committee that they didn't want to hear this testimony again and again. Certainly 
the testimony given in the written presentation is considered to be part of the political motivation.  Thank 
you Mr Chairman.  	Brigadier, page 109, from the middle of the page, from PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 6

UNKNOWN: the words "this action ..."