Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I haven't had any knowledge about it.  Once again Chairperson, I think I must explain to you what is happening in normal practice when you are paying an informer.  The authority to grant permission for the payment of any former has been devolved to a much lower level than myself in normal practice, so it will be done normally - when you are talking about huge amounts like R10.000-00 and upwards, by a person with the rank of Assistant Commissioner and higher.
 In this specific case I was informed about the payment only about three weeks ago when documents were prepared for submission to the TRC, so I wasn't aware of that payment at all up to three weeks ago.

MR PIGOU: Just for the record, the authorisation in terms of the command chain - according to the typed investigation diary handed to the Truth Commission, was Brigadier Britz and General Grove.
 I just want to stick on this point for a moment of payment ...[indistinct] to someone who - the link to the payment, my understanding of the reading of the investigation diary is that Gerry Richardson was being paid R10.000-00 in 1995 for an incident that occurred in his house on the 9th of November 1988, in which a security branch policeman Sefanus Pretorius and two Umkonto weSizwe cadres were killed.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Correct.

MR PIGOU: And I'm trying to understand how is it possible for a man that is convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment to get paid R10.000-00 or an authorisation even to be made even if he was or wasn't paid, for a security branch source - a security branch activity in 1988, is this common practice?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: No.  Chairperson, certainly not and I had the same question three weeks ago, I was also confused about the motivation in the document and as a result of that I asked exactly the same question.  As a result of that, the two investigating officers explained to me that it was not really for that specific incident way back, it was as a result of an interview between themselves and the specific source.
  The source indicated that he won't co-operate with them unless they are paying him the R10.000-00 the police service is owing him for many years and as a result of that, they motivated that.  There is evidence still left in our structure that his story is indeed true and that the police service - the State as such, is owing him an amount of R10.000-00 and as a result of that they motivated the informer claim on the basis of that previous incident. 
 But it wasn't really for that incident, it was to smooth his hand or to oil his hand to participate with the investigators as far as further investigations are concerned.

MR PIGOU: So you are telling me that the South African police service is involved or has been at least in this occasion on oiling the palms, greasing the palms of convicted murderers for the purpose of establishing a case against somebody else?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Well Chairperson, I think what has happened - I've indicated exactly that which was explained to me and I'm testifying on hearsay now - that was explained to me.  The investigators indicated to me that it was very important and as a result of the R10.000-00 they have succeeded to identify one specific person that was ...[indistinct] those days which was pointed out by the specific informer, so as a matter of fact the R10.000-00 contributed to the solving of other incidents afterwards.
 I don't think - maybe the wrong words to say: "They have oiled his hand",  but I think it was very important for the investigators to make sure that the informer participated with the police and afterwards he indeed participated with the police service and as a result of that they have succeeded to solve one additional case.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please. Excuse me please?

MR PIGOU: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to have to break at 12H30 because of the ...[inaudible]

MR PIGOU: I've literally got a couple more questions and then I will be finished.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR PIGOU: If that's okay, I'll be as brief as I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, be as smooth as you can.

MR PIGOU: Okay.  I just wanted to say that in the investigation diary under the 12th of May 1995 - an entry by Colonel Hesslinger, there's an indication that he spoke to - well, he says, spoke to a Lieutenant Muller MID Soweto, who confirmed that Richardson was an informer.
 The documents and registers were in headquarters, Section K, a Brigadier Steyn and that Brigadier Steyn referred Superintendent Hesslinger to a Lieutenant Colonel Shaw.  The point I'm getting at is that it would appear that there are documentation sitting somewhere in Pretoria about informers and I'm wondering if that is the case, if you are able to establish - with documentation, that Gerry Richardson had been informer, that there would be a whole host of other documents sitting there which would indicate to the Commission who were informers.  And I'm wondering whether you would undertake now to see whether that is the case and make those records available to the Commission?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I think Chairperson, you have it on record under my signature that we've already searched our total environment for possible informer records in the environment of the police service.  I've received certificates from all our structures all over South Africa saying: "We haven't got anything of importance" - of course we still have many informer records but not "of importance for the function of the TRC".
 We don't have any of those informer records left and I believe there was an indication in our documentation saying exactly what happened - according to our information, to those records - it has been destroyed.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  Just an extremely quick follow-up on that because it is indicated in this investigation diary in 1995, that there was a record so I have some concern here that between 1995 and the time that you wrote that letter, that those records may have been destroyed.  Perhaps you can comment on that.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I think what the investigators will explain and I asked them exactly the same question, is that you still have the post-mortem reports and the inquest dockets available in court on those two persons who have been killed in that police raid.
 And over and above that, they have spoken to a specific person with the knowledge and on the basis of that they made the assumption that the story of or the indication from that specific source, is true.  So I think that was - I don't think it is information coming out of a typical informer file of the past.

MR PIGOU: Thank you, last question now.  In the light of the investigations that were conducted by Senior Superintendent Hesslinger in his investigations and the fact that the case - I think you were referring  to the successful completion, was the Kukizwani case although it seems that it's not been successfully completed because no-one has been charge indeed and the fact that in spite of extensive searches by the SAP for the Lolo Sono's body outside Soweto, it seems to me that there were quite a few things that could be still be done in this investigation.
 I look at the back of the investigation diary and there are organigrammes which show who was spoken to and who hadn't been spoken to and a considerable number of people had not been approached in this regard.  Could you tell us why the investigation was closed I think in either September or early October 1995?