Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

UNKNOWN: Before Colonel De Kock arrived, let's just call him Nieuwoudt, Mr Nieuwoudt, did he tell you what the background of this whole matter was?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: To sum it up, what was the story?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He told me that some of the black members of the Security Branch of Port Elizabeth had been recruited by the ANC and had very sensitive information in their possession which they wanted to give to the ANC.

UNKNOWN: Could or would furnish this information to the ANC?  And let's deal very briefly with your personal experience.
	If Security Branch members at that stage, if they were to become double agents for the ANC with whom you were waging a struggle at the time, in your view, would it have been a serious matter?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I think we will lead more detailed evidence in this regard, but to sum up, the Intelligence gathering mechanism consisted of agents.  Those were policemen who worked underground, correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: It consisted of informers?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: It consisted of safe houses?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: It consisted of so-called collaborators, people who weren't registered informers but who also would give you information?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

UNKNOWN: There were methods, non-physical methods used to intercept information, interception of post, monitoring of telephone conversations, planting of monitoring devices, etc, so there was a whole security system involved here?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: And if there were four members in a team and one was an informer, would it be reasonable that amongst the four of these members, they would have had reasonably good knowledge of whom the informers were and they had general knowledge of the security system and network?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  That is the way Mr Nieuwoudt put it to me and it was logical for me to assume that they would have certain knowledge about the security network.

UNKNOWN: Now, should a security network be revealed or exposed, what would the effect be of this on the struggle existing at the time between the government and the ANC/SACP alliance?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, in my view that would have undermined and hampered the capacity of the Security Branch in the Eastern Cape and it would have taken us in the Eastern Cape in any event, it would have set us back in our struggle against these forces.  It would have been a big blow to our information system and would have taken time to reconstruct that.

UNKNOWN: What would the effect have been on the security and safety of people like informers and agents?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: There was a strong possibility that some of these people would have been attacked or killed.  Their safety would definitely have been prejudiced.

UNKNOWN: It was already declared policy at that stage that there would be attacks on members of the Police or collaborators, people who worked for the government?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And amongst the four of them, there would have been a fairly, they could have given a good profile of other members of the Security Branch, where he lives and what he looks like, etc?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: These factors you took into consideration?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You did not take the final decision, but as far as you were concerned the authorization had already been given for this operation and after the information which Nieuwoudt gave you, you were satisfied that this was a case where you could get involved in such an operation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: You did not give the authorization?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

UNKNOWN: Did Colonel De Kock then arrive in the mean time?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And did Nieuwoudt brief him and explain the circumstances to him as to the background of the whole situation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Were you satisfied that the decision was justified?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And were you for that reason prepared to give Colonel De Kock the order that he should help Mr Nieuwoudt?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  I would just like to mention that I asked Mr De Kock whether they were up to it, whether they were  able to actually carry out such an operation and he said yes.  And I gave the instruction that he should then assist with the operation.

UNKNOWN: Yes.   On page 7 of your application, you say that you left the two men there, that is Nieuwoudt and De Kock and you left to attend a briefing session at the Security Branch in Soweto?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  Mr Chairman, Mr De Kock and Nieuwoudt left my house and shortly afterwards I also left.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I meant they didn't leave with you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

UNKNOWN: Did you play any further role in the planning or execution of this operation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I didn't.

UNKNOWN: You only later heard that the operation was successful?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You have already to some extent touched on the political objective pursued when you said that should this type of information become known, it would expose and jeopardise the whole security situation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And you also deal with this aspect on page 8 in paragraph 10?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: If theoretically you were able to stop the operation at this stage, on the information which Nieuwoudt gave you and seen against the political background of the country in 1989, would you have stopped the operation if you were able to or would you have given the go ahead for the operation, if it depended on you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I would have given my authorization.

UNKNOWN: If the Commission would just bear with me Mr Chairman.  That concludes the evidence in chief, Mr Chairman.  Sorry Mr Chairman, that concludes the evidence in chief, I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate the way in which you have dealt with this aspect, but would you not refer the witness to page 6 of the statement, paginated page 74?
	I will ask him this question.  Mr Van Rensburg, do you have that page in question?  Do you have it in front of you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I beg your pardon, I didn't quite hear.  Yes, I have it.

CHAIRPERSON: I see it written there that the lives of some of these informers were in danger.  Could you  please just continue from there onwards.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: These members had already been tasked by the ANC to place a limpet mine under one of the Security vehicles to show their solidarity towards the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Must I continue?  He further told me that some of the members had been involved in the elimination of M. Goniwe, T. Galatha, S. Mkonto and S. Mslawuli and that they were on the point of making it known to the ANC and to also make known the names of other members who were involved.

CHAIRPERSON: That is Mr Nieuwoudt?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, that is what he told me.

UNKNOWN: With your permission Chairperson, the limpet mine incident, was any date given to you for the planning, or when it was planned?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can't remember a specific date but according to what I can remember, it would have happened very shortly.  It had to happen very shortly thereafter.

UNKNOWN: Do you confirm your application?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: .