Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR LAX: I'm asking you the question now, because you've just said the only person that you know who was at the meeting was Mr Williams.  If he was the only person you know at the meeting, then anyone else who left out of the meeting, you wouldn't know them, isn't that so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The reason why I told Mr Williams that I can recall him was because I saw him at the door.  Inside I could not see - I'm now talking about the meeting, I could not see, but those who left I could recognise them, yes.

MR LAX: Where was the meeting happening?

ISGAK HARDIEN: You went to go and look at the building, it was in the building.  I cannot say if it was in the boardroom or in the offices, there were offices along the side of the building.

MR LAX: You see your job was to go and see who was there and whether they had left the building or not, how would you know who'd left the building if you didn't make sure where they were and how many of them there were?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I went to go and look, to go and see, because the vehicles were leaving, I went inside, I told Slang: "Wait there's more people leaving" and we sat and waited.  This is now not the time when I went to go and speak to Mr Williams.

MR LAX: The simple point is this, you've told us that there was only one person that you recognised, that you can identify, that's Mr Williams.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: Did you identify anyone else after the meeting?

ISGAK HARDIEN: When the meeting was finished?

MR LAX: Yes.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: So there must have been more than one person at the meeting that you were able to identify.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So Gakkie, did you at any stage on that specific evening see Oesman Alexander?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I'm not very sure, he could have been there, yes.  I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: So you cannot recall if you saw Oesman there or not?  Well the way I understand your evidence is that he was the only person, according to your knowledge, who at that stage had a car and had a connection with the Kewtown Youth Movement.  So in other words, there were no vehicles of the Kewtown Youth Movement, or there was only one vehicle of the Kewtown Youth Movement, and that's Oesman.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I would not say ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get that impression from his answer, Mr Williams.  He did mention that somebody else drove his father's car, I think you were talking about whether people owned cars.  So perhaps you should just clear it up.  It's possible that people might have come in other vehicles, other than their own.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  He stated that Oesman drove his father's car.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, Oesman does not live very far from the hall, so I did not say that he arrived there with his car, I said he drives a car because it's his father's car.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you see any of the Kewtown youth members with cars or vehicles they owned?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, there were various vehicles, I could not say who drove them and who came with them.

MR WILLIAMS: Then my next question to you is, did you see any of the members who attended our meeting, did you see some of them drive cars?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I cannot recall who drove a car but all that I can say is that when the cars left and they moved out, I went back and I told Mr van Zyl: "The meeting is over, they're all moving out or leaving" and that is then the time when I met Mr Williams at the door, when I went back to go and tell them that the people are leaving.  And that is the reason why I wanted to go to Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: So Gakkie, what was your impression at that stage, that the Kewtown Youth Movement were there with vehicles?  Knowing that we lived close to the building we usually walk to the building, what was your impression on that specific evening, that the youth were there with vehicles or cars?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, the Kewtown Youth Movement had various people they knew, they could have arrived with cars, their friends could have had cars who attended the meeting.  There's nothing else that I can add or say, that's just what I thought.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you see Oesman or myself get into a car that evening?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I did not see you or Oesman in a car that evening.

MR WILLIAMS: So I will also put it to you that on that specific evening I did not get into a vehicle, not in my vehicle or in any of the Kewtown youth members' vehicles, I did not get into a car at all and you cannot dispute it.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know, if you say you did not get into a car, it's true, because I did not see you get into a car.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you will not lie and for example tell Slang: "There's Peter Williams getting into a car", is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: All that I told Slang was that the cars which are here belongs to the Kewtown Youth Movement or they are now leaving and the meeting is over.  I did not say in detail: "There's Pietie getting into a car, there's Oesman getting into a Hyundai, and there's Chris getting into a bus", I told him: "Slang, the meeting's over, it's the Youth Movement leaving, it's their people, I'm just going to double-check to see if everything's clear, if all the people have left", he said: "Do so, because we must make a hundred percent sure that nobody gets injured and nobody gets killed", because I told him these were my requirements.  Before I even told him that he told me: "Nobody must get injured and nobody must be killed."

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, your evidence is that you did not see me get into a car, did you see me leave the scene or the premises and go home?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I saw you at the door on the way out and I used my own brain and I said, well Pietie is the last one leaving, because the watchie is going to lock, and before I spoke to Mr Williams I spoke to the watchie and he knew me very well.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words you knew that there was a night watchman on the premises?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Of course, Mr Williams, I know this place.

MR WILLIAMS: You also knew that the night watchman sleeps over in the building, he guards the building at night.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I knew he slept there, but I did not know where he slept.

MR WILLIAMS: But you know that he sleeps inside the building, he does not sleep outside.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, he sleeps inside the building, it's a very big building.

CHAIRPERSON: Hopefully the night watchman doesn't sleep at all during the night.  Mr Williams.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) cases a night watchman ...(indistinct - no microphone) because he fell off a chair whilst he was sleeping and ...(indistinct).  The question was whether ...(indistinct) workman's compensation ...(indistinct)

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams I think it will be better if you can say he lives there, then the Committee will understand it better, because he lives there.

MR WILLIAMS: I agree with you, he was a caretaker.  What is your answer?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He lives there.

MR WILLIAMS: He's the caretaker.

ISGAK HARDIEN: He's the caretaker.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you tell Slang van Zyl them that you knew that the watchman was going to be on the premises?

ISGAK HARDIEN: To tell you the truth, Mr Williams, I cannot recall if I told him that the caretaker lived on the premises, it's possible that I did tell him that there's a day caretaker and a night caretaker.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, the way in which I understand your evidence you did not want anybody to be injured because of the bomb and you now knew that the caretaker is in the building, he sleeps in the building and if your intention was that nobody was supposed to be injured, you would have told him that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: It's possible that I told him that, but I know the caretaker does not sleep in the hall.  Or he does not live in the hall.