Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I did not.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE You arrived back in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town after collecting the ammunitionand you took them to a house you say. Thereafter you had certain meetings, oneat the Uluntu community centre with a person called Nonxuba, who is that?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Nonxuba was the person who was present in the church.

<UNKNOWN>: nd what did he instruct you?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: When?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When you saw him at Uluntu community centre?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I said thathe told me to prepare petrol bombs, known as Molatov, we were then going tomeet in the morning on Sunday.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: He didn't give any reasonas to why?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, he did not give me any reason.

<UNKNOWN>: nd again you were not interested to ask?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I could not ask.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE When you got into the car to proceed to the actual operationitself, you still didn't ask him where you were going?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No,I did not ask.

<UNKNOWN>: ut what I knew was that we were going to an operation. Thatis what I was thinking.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why didn't you ask him what theoperation was and where you were going?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I could not ask.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Why could you not ask?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: What I knew was thatI had to follow orders as they came. I could not ask anything more. I was justfollowing orders.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Who told you that, that you were notallowed to ask any questions?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I was told by Vusi, the onewho was training me.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did he tell Makoma that too?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I don't know whether he told Makoma.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Ifhe told you as part of your training, then I presume that Mr Makoma would havebeen told at the same time?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is that a question?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Perhaps I can rephrase it. If Vusi told you that as part of your training, wasMr Makoma told at the same time or was he not told at the same time?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I would like to explain something.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Please go ahead.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Mr Makoma was staying at his home, I was staying at home. Wewould meet in meetings, but what I am sure about is that Vusi told me that Makomawas together with us in the same training. If he told me not to ask, it is clearthat he also told Makoma.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he tell you privately or didhe tell you when he had the people there that he was training?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: My training was private.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that part of your training thatyou mustn't ask questions?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, it was part of my training.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Do you know now, whether anyone had been to the St James churchbefore the attack to plan the operation? Do you know that now?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I don't know.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What was your training as to attacks,was it not part of your training that attacks should be carefully planned?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean planned by him?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am saying was it part of histraining that attacks in general should be carefully planned by whoever wasto be in control of that operation?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Please repeat your question.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you know whether attacks are properly planned beforehand?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, I do know that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You don't know whetherthis specific attack was properly planned though?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, Idon't.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: In all likelihood according to what you have beentold in your training, it had been planned?

CHAIRPERSON: ... along with thequestion that the comment you are making, you know, the likelihood of him beingtold and so on, I mean that really hardly is a question.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I won't take it any further. Had you heard of the St James church before theattack took place?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Where did youlive at the time?

<UNKNOWN>: t home.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Where isthat or where was that?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Unathi, in Old

<UNKNOWN>: rossroads, number2023.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Were you aware of the St James' activities in Khayelitsha?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You were not aware that St James hasa daughter church in Khayelitsha?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You were not aware that the congregation from St James, Kenilworth, on Sundaysgo to church in that church in Khayelitsha?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I did notknow.

<UNKNOWN>: an I take it you knew nothing about the St Jameschurch before the attack?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Whatwas then your objective in forming part of that attack?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Please explain your question.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What was your intention informing part of that attack? What did you expect the attack to achieve?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I took part in the attack so that our land can come back to usand so that there can be democracy in this country.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Howdid you intend the attack to achieve that?

<UNKNOWN>: ccording tome, this attack would bring down the spirit of the oppressors in order for usto think back what they have done to see that it was not a good thing to takethe land from its people.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How would it bring down the oppressors?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: When there is violence in White areas, they would try and goto the government to lay there grievances so that the government can listento our own grievances in order for us to live together in peace.

<UNKNOWN>: nd that was your intention or your reason for taking part in the attack?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, I can say so.

<UNKNOWN>: ut Mr Mkhumbuzi, whenyou decided to take part in that attack, you just said you didn't know the attackwas going to be in a White area.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you asked him questions,what did he hope to achieve and he gave you a general answer as to how he understoodthe position. You can't take it very much further than that, can you?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE With respect, he said his motivation for taking part in the attackwas to perform an attack on a White area, yet he said he didn't know that priorto him actually deciding to go on the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right. Theyattacked a White church and you asked him what were you hoping to achieve? Heoffers you an explanation as to what he thought, if there was violence in aWhite area, the government would pay attention to their grievances.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: With respect, what I asked him was what was his motivation for going on theoperation.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, maybe that is putting it differently, but Ithink the answer is the same, isn't it?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: With respect, Iwould submit not. I submit his motivation for going on the operation is formedprior to going on the operation. He said that his motivation was to attack aWhite area.

CHAIRPERSON: His motivation was that he wasn't told, he was merelytold he was to be part of an operation, that is all.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Specificallythat is the point I am trying to make. I am saying he is not being truthfulin saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, suggest to him that you knew all alongthat there was going to be an attack on the church and despite that, you went,put that to him.

<UNKNOWN>: ertainly, Judge, if I put that to him,however, if I put that to him as bluntly as that, he is likely to deny it straightup.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: My problem is that you take that question out of context.Out of the context of P

<UNKNOWN>: PL