Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR J DE CASTRO: No at that stage I had a weapon, I never ever carried my weapon with me, my weapon used to be at home.  To be honest with you I've never ever shot with my weapon, I don't know how to shoot.  Why would they say I'm a AWB.  I'm a business man, I've got no interest in politics whatsoever, I'm a business person.  How would my customers feel if I had to be a leader of AWB or a leader of ANC, both ways I mean you know I'm a business man I'm a neutral person.  I know - when it's time to vote yes, I have to go, I have to make a decision.  I'm not going to tell you what my decision was but that's how I feel but I don't belong to any political group whatsoever.

MR STEENKAMP: Only my last question to you.  I understand that you were a very good rugby player in the Wesselsbron rugby team.  Is that correct?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes I used to play rugby, I played rugby, I used to play soccer, I used to play golf and at this stage I can't do any.  You know this shooting incident changed my whole life, everything.  I'm not the same person that I used to be before the shooting incident, you know I was active.  I was you know I'm a totally different person today because of this shooting incident, but still even the way I am I still thank God for being alive and I thank God for putting his hands above me and say listen you've got another chance in life.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I maybe just ask you, can you give an estimate what the damage was in your shop.  How much did it cost you to repair your shop?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well we must have had about R100 000,00 of damages inside that store, including the money and the cheques which was stolen.  Well at that time I was laying in hospital but I was aware of everything that was happening, I mean the store was closed for approximately two weeks.  Just in those two weeks I can, you know I haven't made up a sum of how much business we lost in those two weeks.

MR STEENKAMP: Is there anything else you would like to add Mr De Castro?

MR J DE CASTRO: No not at this stage.  I would just like to say that you know you have to be - for you to express your feelings you've got to get through a thing.  I've been through it and I don't think everybody can feel that way I feel, it's difficult to express yourself to, you know to the people and some people think well why's this guy complaining, I mean I know what I'm talking about you know and I've been through different stages you know.
	Some people think for themselves this guy was shot, did they know what thing it is to be shot, do they know what is the feeling to have a bullet in your body.  You know it's - let me tell you something, the guys that assaulted us, the guys that came to rob us, the guys that shot us, if all of them had to be shot he would feel that way I feel.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr De Castro.  Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr De Castro I'll start by saying I'm sorry to hear what you went through on the day of the incident and your family.
 	Now you told the Committee how these people entered the shop and you went to open the tills and they told you to lie down ...(indistinct).  Did they instructed you to go and open the tills or you did that on your own?

MR J DE CASTRO: As they came in they told me "money", where do you get money, out of my pocket?  You get money out of the till, I had to open up the tills in the first place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And at that time you went to open the tills, were you concentrating on what other people were doing at that particular point in time or were you concentrating on opening the tills?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well you see I was so used to the tills, I know exactly which button, I can be looking at you and I will open up the till for you without a problem.  I can do that, yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How would you describe the situation, were they looking for a place to hide or were they obeying the orders that they must lie down, or the way that you were saying, that people were screaming and running around?

MR J DE CASTRO: They who?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the other people who were in the shop?

MR J DE CASTRO: You talking about the victims or you taking about the robbers?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes the victims.  You said that you were instructed to lie down?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.  What I'm saying is that, would you describe that situation as if the people were wanting a place to lie down or they were running away just for cover to save their skins?

MR J DE CASTRO: No, the people where they were standing they went and they lie down were they were standing and they were shot where they were lying down.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now they were shot, so definitely it's your evidence that definitely if they were lying down they were shot at their backs?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So do you know what was the - after the post mortem that was the evidence, that they were shot at their backs?

MR J DE CASTRO: After the what?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Post mortem.

MR J DE CASTRO: Post mortem?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Hm.

MR J DE CASTRO: If, do I know?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that the bodies were examined by a doctor afterwards and he prepared a report known as a post mortem report which would show that they had been shot in their backs.  Do you know about that, do you know anything about the post mortem report?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.  Well I won't argue the fact of that but not everybody was laying down on their stomachs, doesn't mean lie down you're lying down with your body to, with your stomach to the floor you can be lying down, you can be kneeling down.  My brother in-law, Andries Parker, he was on his knees, he was shot that way.  They shot to the floor and it ricochetted on him.  The guys were shooting down.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So what you are saying is that it does not necessary mean when you say that they ordered you to lie down they literally lay down, that is the victims?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well they said "money and lie down", and we were trying to lie down.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now the evidence of the applicant is that the people who opened them, the tills for them was a woman?

MR J DE CASTRO: No I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And that they shot him, he was the last one to be shot?

MR J DE CASTRO: No it is not so, it is not so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where exactly in your foot were you shot?

MR J DE CASTRO: My left foot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What I'm saying is that inside your left foot or outside?

MR J DE CASTRO: It was on the junction of my foot, on the ankle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: On you ankle?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.  I had to be operated on ...(indistinct) for them to build up my foot again.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Would you agree with me that because of the colour of your skin, you were privileged in South Africa then?

MR J DE CASTRO: No, I won't agree with you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.

MR J DE CASTRO: You want me to say because I'm a white person I'm better than you?  No it is not so, we are all people.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm not saying that you are better than me.  It may be true that you are better than me, but not necessarily in that sense, I was saying that you were privileged, you had right which other people didn't have?

MR J DE CASTRO: If I was privileged I didn't make use of it in first place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Would you agree with me that even if you were privileged, as you put it, you didn't use that privilege but you had a choice to use it or not to use it?