Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Mr Lecordier.
MR LECORDIER
"There were three operations on this night.  The others were a mini-limpet mine explosion, the vegetable oil tanker storage facility in Chamberlain Road and the third one was the limpet mine explosion outside Copper Shop, Brickhill Road.
		All these three operations were done on the same day.  There were no persons injured and none killed.  Comrade Robert, Antonio du Preez and I carried out these three operations.
		Antonio drove.  He dropped Robert and I and we pretended that we were going fishing.  Comrade Robert and I went and placed the charges on the oil pipes.  Two limpet mines.  We walked off, Antonio came back and picked us up."

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Then you deal with the mini-limpet mine explosion at the vegetable oil tank at the corner of Lawley and Chamberlain Roads.  You say the same method of operation was used here.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: And that this operation was the same as the one preceding, namely the Umlaas Mobile Oil pipeline explosion.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Except that Robert got out of the car alone and placed the charge himself.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  I then take you to the limpet mine explosion outside the Copper Shop in Brickhill Road.  This is an operation in which you featured by carrying out the explosion, by taking it to the police vehicle, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, that's right.

MR DEHAL: Will you please read (i) into the record.
MR LECORDIER
"This was an unsuccessful operation.  The target was originally a police vehicle that was parked almost on a permanent basis at the bottom of Point Road.  My task was to place the limpet mine in this vehicle and comrade Robert agreed to pick me up afterwards.
		On my way to the police vehicle, after being dropped off, I became scared because I was under the impression that I had been spotted by the police and I panicked and dropped the explosive device into a refuse bin.  
		In fact it was daily noticed that the police would park the vehicle and move away from it, but on this particular day when I got to the police vehicle, I noticed they were still in it. 
		In all three incidents carried out on the 21st and 22nd of June, there were no injuries and no-one was killed.  The three operations were all intended to continue the sabotage campaign, disrupt the oil supplies as in the first one, the economic sabotage and armed propaganda.  This, as per the instructions and policy of Robert McBride and the ANC, as he had told us."

MR DEHAL: Mr Lecordier, in this Copper Shop operation, you say that the police parked their vehicle there daily and your intelligence showed that they would leave their vehicle and move away from it and you intended to place this explosive device beneath their vehicle.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: But on this particular day you saw they were still in their vehicle, and is it they that you were worried about, as having spotted you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: And you say then that you took this explosive device and placed it in a refuse bin?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, yes.

MR DEHAL: Is that the one closest to the Copper Shop?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, that's right.

MR DEHAL: And is it as a result of this explosion that the Copper Shop sustained substantial damages?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Lecordier, just as a matter of interest, what is a Copper Shop?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was a curio shop, Mr Chairman, they sell a lot of ornaments made from copper.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And when you placed that mine in the refuse bin, was there traffic, pedestrian traffic on the pavement?  What was the situation?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: There were a few pedestrians walking around at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give an estimate of the time of night that this took place?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, Your Worship, I don't want to go into that,  I'm not sure of the time there.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well was it night-time or daytime?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was at night.

JUDGE PILLAY: Yes.

MR DEHAL: But Mr Lecordier, you say that there were no injuries in this operation and no persons killed, is it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: And this is in Point Road - sorry, this Copper Shop was in Point Road, at the corner of Point Road and the projection of West Street leading up to the Marine Parade?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, that's right, in that vicinity.

MR DEHAL: Not too far off from the Why Not area?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, that's right.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  You then deal with the sabotage of the water pipeline, which took place on the 29th to 30th of June 1986.  This is an item you sought amnesty for and is dealt on bundle A1, page 10, item 21, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Will you please read (i) to (v) into the record.
MR LECORDIER
"Allan Pearce, comrade McBride and I were involved in this operation.
At the stage this took place, Allan Pearce had been recruited by myself into the cell that was made up of Antonio du Preez and myself.  As an operation which was in line with the disruption of industrial water supplies to the New Germany/Pinetown area, and which sought economic sabotage and armed propaganda on behalf of the ANC.
		This operation was also planned as an initiation operation for Allan Pearce, as he and I and Antonio would be working together.  The method of operation was the same.  Robert dropped off Allan and I.  The intention being that we must get confidence of placing charges without comrade Robert.  Comrade Robert then picked us up after about five minutes after we placed the charges and we drove off.
		The pipes were damaged and the water supply to the industrial area was disrupted for a few days.  There were no deceased, no persons injured.  Comrade Robert was convicted and sentenced for this operation.  We attach the charges to the valves as the pipes had lagging around them and the magnet could not hold onto it."

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Then you deal with illegal possession of arms and ammunition.  This deals with the two Shangwene DLBs.  You recall that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Will you please read (i) and (ii) into the record.
MR LECORDIER
"I made two separate trips to the Shangwene area, for the purpose of bearing arms.  This I did  under comrade Robert's instructions.
		On our first trip I went with Robert and we dug a hole.  On the second trip we took the arms and buried it there."
 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you continue.  "We took the arms and buried it there", did you just have one weapon or is this a typing error?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give an indication of the quantity of arms and the type of arms that were buried when you buried them.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was a variety of weapons, Mr Chairman.

MR DEHAL: And were these weapons placed in plastic bags and buried into the hole that was dug there?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: So it was an arms cache, is it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: That concludes the number of incidents/operations, for which you seek amnesty and the one of course that was mistaken as being an operation that you sought amnesty for.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: You now deal with your role as a State witness, as a State witness in the trial of State vs Robert McBride and Derek McBride, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, that's right.