Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It is then that I found homage in school politics and they extended, to some extent, to the politics outside the environment in the schools, that I became part of the youth that was to oversee that in the location there was generally smooth running of things, namely, that our community should get rid of - should be a crime-free violence, that the frustrations that our fellow brothers who had passed their matric and couldn't have jobs were taking out on our fellow parents.  They would, upon having not had maybe, for instance, university entrance marks, they would end up having no jobs.  They would resort back to forming gangsters that would rob our parents, who by then would have woken up at four am to go and work for whatever peanuts that is being offered in those firms where they worked hard and toiled, but upon the coming day of salary, you would find our frustrated brothers - some who are literate and some who are illiterate - but who could not face the reason why they have been deprived of all the luxuries that our fellow South Africans of other colours were enjoying, would take their anger on our very fragile parents and take their little monies and our families would suffer as a result of that.  Our sisters would not move around the location after the sun has set, because there was this element of our fellow
brothers having turned themselves into bandits.  They would take them, rob them, rape them and do whatever they felt, what could suit their anger or would quench it for that matter.  And those duties we had to take responsibility as youth to make it a point that this does not happen, and that the whole people who have been diverted from the national goal, that is to seek freedom and enjoy whatever South Africa has to offer, equally.

MR CURRIN: Before you go on, I would just like you to pause for a moment and tell the members of the Committee about the effectiveness of the police in addressing ordinary crime in the townships at that particular time, and in Daveyton at that particular time.  We know about their involvement in the politics of the townships, but addressing ordinary crime.  How effective were the police and why did the youth take it upon themselves to play a role in law and order?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Currin, how effective are they today?

MR CURRIN: Well, that is a question which maybe one can deal with in argument.  But he must answer in the context of his experience in his township in Daveyton in the 1980's.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: As I have indicated before, it was chaotic, because police could not render us service that we so much required.  And one disturbing element is that police in fact, we had agreements before with them.  As student congress we used to go out and disarm our fellow brothers of weapons of that, weapons that killed our nation and we took those weapons, and handed them over to the police.  But in return the police were not to be trusted.  They took those very same weapons and gave it to gang members.  So as to fight comrades.  So this was the reason why the police could no longer be trusted and their effectiveness thereof was not
felt by us as a community.  
	And I should further state that upon realising this, there was a call that was made through the underground movement, the publications of Sichaba that police who were residing in our areas, because really, there was no one who was in the middle during the struggle. It is either you were with us or you were with the enemy.  So police had already chosen their side.  By the mere virtue of being a police and being on the other side of race, we would take you as a traitor and a collaborator.  And when the era came that we should read of policeman who were residing with us, stooges, informers and all that, it is then that we realised that the error that we made, we have armed people that could use these weapons effectively or worse, in maiming us, people who are trying to create an environment that is free for the launching of freedom of our people.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.  Could you at this stage indicate your involvement in organisational politics at the time.  What organisations and/or political structures were you involved in Daveyton at that stage?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I was involved in Daveyton Student Congress and Daveyton Youth Congress, which were the affiliates of UDF.  Ultimately the affiliate of the ANC or the external wing, as it has been referred by the previous regime.

MR CURRIN: Did you hold any office in either of those organisations?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: During those years we decided to name and divide our locations and name them after progressive countries rather, who were espoused to the ideology of communism. I was the chairman of a liberated zone called Russia.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.  You have spoken about involvement in law and order activities and in your application there is a section that deals with people's courts.  Did you play any role in people's courts, and if so, what was that role?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, I did play a role in the people's court.  I was in fact the chairman in the people's court, and I had to take decisions of handing down sentences.  And above all that, I had the task as well as with other comrades, to make sure that those who were offenders are being sought and brought to book.  Because it was not everyone who would come voluntarily as if in a court of law is happening today.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, in what year were you a chairperson of the people's court in your area?  What year was it when you were the chairperson of the people's court in your area?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: 1983 to 1985.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you chairman of the people's court at the age of 15?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

MR CURRIN: That question really prompts another aspect which I would like to canvass with you.  At the tender age of 15 when youngsters of that age should be on soccer fields playing football and should be having fun with their peer group, you were a highly politicised young activist.  Could you tell us what, if you are able, to tell us what that did to your psyche, to your soul, to your persona, bearing in mind this incredible responsibility that you had on your shoulders, as a chairperson of a people's court of taking the struggle forward.  How did you deal with this as a person at that age?