Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I specifically received the information that from the ranks of KOSAS, the black youth, there was a threat to his life which arose Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Well I think we heard that there had been a threat to his life when he was taken to Mr Venter's.  He didn't join the South African Police and joined Security Branch and for a while he worked in Bloemfontein.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And it seems that you are not able to tell us what specific threat you are referring to.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Well on of the writers referred to a necklace murder which would be committed against Mr Ngo, that was the threat.

ADV MEMANI: And do you know what had prompted that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman, not specifically, but the point that the man was an informant and became a policeman placed him in a threatened position continually.  But if my memory serves me right, at that stage there was planning to murder this man by means of the necklace method.  We received information we had to do something about this.

MR VISSER: That is also what is stated in the letter on page 63 of Bundle B.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is indeed so honourable Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Now you heard the evidence of Ngo. Ngo told us that he was involved in a shooting incident. As a result of that shooting incident he was transferred to Ladybrand.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That he was involved in a shooting incident I cannot deny I just can't remember this specific incident.  That's not the reason why he was transferred to Ladybrand Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: And the information contained at paragraph 4 was not correct.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No it is indeed an erroneous statement Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: That information was intended to conceal the true reason for his transfer from here to Ladybrand.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is not the truth Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Now you told us that Mr Ngo, that there was an oath of secrecy that people took, isn't it?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now before I get to that I think I should have concluded the last question by putting it to you that this was another instance of you condoning unlawful conduct on the part of Ngo.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is not true Honourable Chair.

ADV MEMANI: It is perhaps part of the reason why it was not deemed necessary to transfer him - let me say it was for that reason that it was that letter is not being regard as a transfer.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair that is incorrect.  The divisional commissioner signed the letter I think.  Yes the then divisional commissioner signed it, that was his task.  I told you what administration was involved in the transfer.

MR VISSER: Yes we remember your reply in this regard Mr Erasmus.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Erasmus the reason why the SAP 172 form was not completed was because it would have involved explaining the transfer of Mr Ngo.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is incorrect Chair.

ADV MEMANI: You avoided doing that because it was because it was because of unlawful conduct on the part of Ngo.

UNKNOWN: Mr Memani if that is so, why couldn't they give the same reason as they gave here although it's untrue?  Why couldn't they repeat the untruth in the SAP 172.  That would already have it on record.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman you'll have to repeat I'm afraid, I can't hear you.

UNKNOWN: They've already put on record that he's being transferred because of a so-called threat, if it's a so-called threat.  If that was an untruth and they've already stated that, why shouldn't they repeat this misleading statement also in the SAP 172?  If they really want to mislead people.

ADV MEMANI: It might have been oversight, I don't know, I can't answer for them.  Now Mr Erasmus if it was not because you wanted to conceal the true reason for the transfer of Mr Ngo, I am sure you would have said that an SAP 172 would be completed in due course.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, we also have this letter which is sent from the Divisional Commissioner's office and the instruction contained therein signed personally according to my impression, which was signed by him as something emanating from their office and having nothing to do with the Security Branch.  I made no input there, I had no argument in this regard, that was not my decision that it didn't have to be reported by SAP 172.

ADV MEMANI: You see I can't believe you because you were the person primarily responsible for the employment of Ngo at Security Branch.  I can't believe that when the time came to transfer him no discussion would have been entered into with you about the transfer.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable Chair after Mr Nelson Ngo had joined the South African Police he served under the Divisional Commissioner's command, the direct supervision was with the Security Branch.  But staff matters was the function of the Divisional Commissioner and I deny the allegations against me.

ADV MEMANI: You know if one looks at B 63, it is signed by the, is it Divisional Commander?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: But however you are the reference, isn't it?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That's indeed so.

ADV MEMANI: And that would therefore mean that you are were the actual writer of the letter.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Not in all instances.  In most instances yes, and this letter I would have written definitely.

ADV MEMANI: And the Divisional Commander who had nothing to do with Ngo, did not work with Ngo, would not be in a position to make those decisions about Ngo.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman we worked in an orderly office where an office head was responsible, that is why he signed it because he associated him with the contents.

UNKNOWN: In the letter which you wrote did you request that an SAP 172 not be completed?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Now the next letter in which it is stated that it shouldn't be completed, who wrote that letter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: The enquiry is marked Lt Bester and the letter is from the Divisional Commissioner.

UNKNOWN: From your side in the letter which you wrote or verbally did you ever refer to the SAP 172?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Honourable Chair.

ADV MEMANI: You may have misunderstood me Mr Chairman, what I'm saying is that you must have known about this letter. Now Mr...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Why on earth, this is an entirely technical matter, why should he know about it, he knew that they wanted to transfer him to Ladybrand.  Why on earth must he know about the Divisional Commissioner deciding that an SAP 172 should be filled in?

ADV MEMANI: Well Mr Chairman you must see the question in the light of my instructions that Mr Erasmus was the chief handler of Mr Ngo and that Mr Ngo left Bloemfontein for Ladybrand because he had been involved in a shooting incident and that resulted in him being transferred and the theory that I'm pursuing is that Mr Erasmus, as the chief handler of Ngo, should have known about this incident...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: And further I'm disagreeing entirely, having had some knowledge of how administrative functions are performed that he would have been told about something technical, as technical as this and he has said he has not and I think that's the end of the matter Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman I have different views on the matter but I'll proceed Mr Chairman.  Now Mr Erasmus, who is this Bester who was the reference in this matter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: He is an officer attached to the Divisional Commissioner's office at the time.

ADV MEMANI: And who was he?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: He was one of his staff members Honourable Chair.