Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps we can ask Mr Lecordier.  Were you present when Mr McBride testified in his trial?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No.

UNKNOWN: So you don't know what he said at the trial?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No.

JUDGE PILLAY: Was it perhaps put to you by his counsel that you may have said so?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: And you denied that because - well, maybe you can answer that.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Was I supposed to admit something that I never said?

UNKNOWN: So you denied it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: That that was the correct position.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: If I recall, I did deny it.

UNKNOWN: And in fact that was the truth, because you hadn't planned and you hadn't identified Why Not bar as a target, is that right?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: That was Mr McBride's doing.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prior.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, sorry, before Mr Richard - you would obviously have noticed that I questioned somewhat at length regarding the conduct of certain personnel of the Court and policemen.  Maybe that can be raised later.  There certainly seems to my mind to have been improper conduct, if it in fact did happen, which borders on either defeating the ends of justice or some other criminal conduct, and I would at the appropriate stage ask this Committee to consider what steps to be taken, if any.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair.
	Mr Lecordier, you say you were born in Wentworth in Durban, is that correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I never said I was born in Wentworth.

MR RICHARD: Where were you born?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: In Durban.

MR RICHARD: Now where did you live?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I first lived in Clairewood.

MR RICHARD: For how long?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think till I was about 9 or 10 years old.

MR RICHARD: And after you turned 9 or 10, where did you go to live?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: My Mom and Dad had bought a place in Wentworth.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now from then on, did you live anywhere else besides in Wentworth?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'm not sure what you're asking me now.  From then on until what stage?

MR RICHARD: From the age of 9 or 10 or whatever it was, you moved to Wentworth and after then, to be precise, until the time of your arrest, did you live anywhere else besides in Wentworth?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Now how far is Wentworth from the centre of Durban?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I would say about five or six kilometres.

MR RICHARD: How old ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Richard.  Just for my own information, was Wentworth its own place, did it have its own municipality, because you said you were born in Durban and not in Wentworth?  It's not part of, or wasn't part of Durban?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, it's part of Durban, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it just a suburb?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, it's a suburb.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean if somebody says were you born in Durban and you say no, I was born in Wentworth, you're fiddling around with words basically.  I mean, because Wentworth is part of Durban.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It's just the way he asked the question.  He said to me "You say you were born in Wentworth".  I did not say that to anybody.

MR RICHARD: Let's got back to my last question.  I had asked how far is Wentworth from the centre of Durban, the beachfront area?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think it's about five or six kilometres.

MR RICHARD: My next question was, how old were you when you were arrested?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think I was 21 at the time.  Yes, 21.

MR RICHARD: During the period from when you moved to Wentworth until your arrest, how often had you been to the beachfront area of Durban?  Many times, seldom?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't remember.

MR RICHARD: Give us an indication please.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't remember.  If you're asking me to remember from when I was 10 years old ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Were you familiar with the Durban beachfront?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: It was the sort of place you used to go to fairly regularly, as an inhabitant of Durban.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I won't say I used to got there regularly.  The thing is being a black we weren't allowed to be there, in that part of town.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were familiar with  ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I was familiar with the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Now from the time that you joined the Fairvale Unit you say, or before maybe, you attended various meetings at the Allan Taylor residence.  Was it from before when you joined or formed the Fairvale Unit, or afterwards that you started attending meetings at the Allan Taylor residence?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Can you repeat that please.

MR RICHARD: Did you go to meetings at the Allan Taylor residence before joining the Fairvale Unit?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Before.

MR RICHARD: How often would you go to meetings at the Allan Taylor residence?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't really remember how often I used to go there.

MR RICHARD: Was it frequently, was it seldom?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I used to go there I would say frequently.

MR RICHARD: Frequently meaning once a week, every second night or what?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: About once or twice a week I used to attend meetings.

MR RICHARD: Who convened those meetings?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Members of ANC.

MR RICHARD: And what was discussed ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Students who lived at that residence.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Those were students who lived at the residence, members of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: And what was discussed at those meetings?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: We discussed lots of things about the situation in the country and what the ANC's policy is on changing the situation.

MR RICHARD: Now in and during the period 1985, what was the ANC's policy regarding changing the situation?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think you should refer to my amnesty application.

MR RICHARD: I've asked you the question.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Mr Chairman, can I just speak to my attorney?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, can't you answer the question?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, it's not that, I'd just like to confer with my attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I must point out that the witness is under cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You are under - when a witness is under cross-examination, it's not done to consult with one's legal representative.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Sorry, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Even during adjournments.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Can you repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: And during the period 1985, when you went to meetings at the Allan Taylor residence, you say that the police the ANC regarding changing things in South Africa was discussed.  My next question was, what was the policy of the ANC at that time regarding changing the situation in South Africa?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Sir, my answer to you is this.  There ware lots of things that I do not remember, I have put it behind me, I have been trying to get on with my life and with the result that there are lots of things that I don't remember anymore.  I mean you're asking me to do something which I think is impossible, to remember every aspect of what was said ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Lecordier, in 1985 there was a significant change in policy of the ANC, its armed struggle.  Can you not remember that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do recall a bit of it, Judge.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well isn't that part of the answer to the question?  I can understand there's certain things that you through the passage of time, you can't remember, but surely one can't blank out.  Those were important days of the South African lives.  Proceed.