Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I've read the paragraph, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That whilst you were talking to them and now when this came to the fore, that they were required back in Lusaka, that they would tell about the contact they had with you people, that is your section?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That was a possibility, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And was this told to you by Jagga and Jantjie?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, was it told to me that they had to return to Zambia?

CHAIRPERSON: That Betty, when they made contact with Betty Boom, she said now they were required to go back to Lusaka?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give any advice to the contrary, that they should not, for instance?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I can't remember specifically doing so, but my advice would have been that they should not go back.  Had I given advice.

CHAIRPERSON: And you did not do anything further to discourage them, as they were your valuable sources since they were responsible for the Machinery in the Free State?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I did not, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Robertshaw, when did you joint the Security Branch?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I joined the Security Branch in 1986 - sorry, Chairperson, 1976.

CHAIRPERSON: ... is because I had looked at your so-called CV, and that was in Durban.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: So by 1987, you had at least 10 years experience in the Security Branch?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And how long ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Minus two.  Minus two, because he was out at some stage.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: As the Chairperson pleases.
	And by December 1987, how long had you been in the section dealing with intelligence gathering?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I arrived in Ladybrand on the 1st of July 1986, so that would be approximately, say six months, after six months.  Sorry, did I say '98?

MR MALINDI: '86.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I arrived on the 1st of July 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	And then taking all these four together now, Betty Boom's unit and Mbulelo Ngono, KK, they're all taken back into Lesotho, dropped at a taxi rank, broad daylight, very public area, and you hoped these people to be your informers within the ANC.  Was that also not another reckless conduct on your part?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't think so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: But you know, anybody could have seen you.  I asked Mr Jagga and Mr Jantjie this very same question, anybody could have seen them being dropped off in such a public place.  And I mean, and this was the point, is that both Jagga and Jantjie conceded that they were well known in Lesotho.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, well know, you know well known is a relative term, I don't know if it was well known to whom in Lesotho?  If they were well known to the population of Lesotho, were they well known to the police in Lesotho, or were they well known to the ANC people in Lesotho, to whom they were well known, I don't know.

MR LAX: Well as I've said to you, it really doesn't matter, the fact is they were people who were regularly in Lesotho.  I mean Thulo says he was there three days out of five.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So there must have been people who were seen in and around Maseru regularly, their vehicles must have been seen regularly.  It wouldn't take much to put two and two together.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, if they were seen - I don't know, I can't answer that question.  All I know is that if they were dropped at the taxi rank, the taxi rank is a very busy place and people are getting in and out of vehicles every second of the day.  To me it would be quite a safe place, who's going to take notice of these people getting in and out of the vehicle, or getting out of a vehicle, being dropped off at the taxi rank?

MR LAX: Well the point is that is the very place where you'd expect people to be seen, at a taxi rank.  Whereas, if you dropped them off in a secluded place, the likelihood of anyone seeing them would have been much less.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's possible true as well, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Or if you dropped them off at night-time, it would also be much less.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We couldn't drop them off at night-time, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well the border was open till ten.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: If I remember - could it have been open till ten, I think, I'm not sure if at that time if it was open until only 8 o'clock.  I speak under correction.

MR LAX: Well even in the early dusk of the evening was still a better prospect.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I suppose that's a matter of opinion, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Yes.  You know, what puzzles me, if I could just continue a moment longer, is surely at the point that you got wind of the fact that here this real peach of an intelligence opportunity is being recalled back to Lusaka, why didn't you just abduct them out of there against their will.  Because these people were valuable to you man.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, we didn't know the reason for them being called to Lusaka, they could have been called up there, given new instructions and been sent right back to Lesotho.

MR LAX: But please, you knew there were suspicions, you knew they'd been partly compromised, I mean hey, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put it together.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well I'm not a rocket scientist anyway, Chairperson, but I didn't know the reason why they were being called back to Lusaka, it could have been for any purpose whatsoever.  It wouldn't be the first time they'd been called to Lusaka, as far as I'm concerned, and if they're sent back, it wouldn't be the last time they'd been called to Lusaka.  Perhaps coming back from Lusaka they would have had much more valuable information that they could have supplied us.

MR LAX: Well if that was the case, then why did you testify earlier that you, if you had, because you can't remember whether you did, but if you had, your advice would have been: "Don't go, for goodness sake don't go"?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That would have been my advice, that's correct.

MR LAX: And why would you have given them that advice?  Because you would have known it would have been a dangerous thing to do.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Because there was - exactly.

MR LAX: Well thank you, that's why I'm suggesting this to you, because it's such an obvious thing.  But anyway.  Carry on, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	And if you had any thought that they were going to be given bigger and better responsibilities, you'd have encouraged them to go?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: If we had known the purpose of it, yes, but we didn't the purpose.  That was a possibility.

MR MALINDI: And after maintaining some contact with Betty Boom, until the call she made to the effect that she and her cell have been called to Lusaka, you got no information about her from your own informers, is it not so, about her or other members of the cell?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Not that I - I can't recall anything like that, Chairperson, I didn't personally handle informers.  If he's referring to informers that were handled by the members of the Security Branch at Ladybrand, I can't recall anything like that.