Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

MR OOSTHUIZEN: No, my question is, would you say, would you agree if I state that at the stage when Mr Thalede was killed, the IFP was engaged in a political struggle against the ANC?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Yes, it was like that, there was great fighting, especially in Kwazulu-Natal.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Mr Ngxongo, did you had an opportunity, after you've been convicted, after the killing of Mr Thalede, did you had an opportunity to talk to the family of Mr Thalede?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Yes, they came to visit me in Ermelo while serving my sentence, because I started serving my sentence around this area and I asked them to transfer me to a place, a prison near home, and they took me to Ermelo, that's where the Thalede family came to see me and I did ask apology from them.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: You did ask forgiveness and what were their reaction?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Yes, I did ask them to forgive me, and they were happy that I came down to ask for forgiveness, and we forgived each other, and it showed that they did accepted my apology.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: What you've just testified before the commission is a discussion that took place privately between yourself and the family of Mr Thalede.   If, like today, publicly, and it is indeed the case, you've got the opportunity, what would you say in the public today to the family of Mr Thalede?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Firstly, I know it's not easy for someone to say, "I'll forgive you", because the pain that I caused them to suffer, I know that it's not only the Thalede family that suffered, I know they help the whole community of the Bushbuck Ridge, and even to the people of Bushbuck Ridge, some of them are not able to get help from Mr Thalede, therefore I will ask them to forgive me too for whatever I did and they should forget what happened.   I know they will not forget Mr Thalede, because they loved him, but I would like them to forgive me and forget.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And if your application is successful, will you or will you not again be connected with acts like these?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I wouldn't, even in my dreams, because I believe that even the family of Thalede's family, Thalede's wife had fears that "If you serve your sentence and you get out and the people who ask you, instructed you to kill my husband, come to you and say, `Now go and kill the family', will you do it?", and I said to her, "No, I am sorry for what I did and I wouldn't do it again".

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Just to finalise the matter, is it so that Mr Mbambo was sentenced on this same case before you?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: That's correct.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Do you know when he was sentenced?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: It was 1996, but I can't remember the month.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: You testified that you never ever fired a shot at Mr Thalede or anyone else, why then did you pleaded guilty at your criminal case in Graskop?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: May you repeat the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand your question, Mr Oosthuizen, at all.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Excuse me, Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand your question.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: My question, Madam Chair, is the applicant testified that he himself never fired any shot... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: ...at the supermarket or Chicken Licken, towards Mr Thalede or any of the other members.

CHAIRPERSON: I think probably about something else we can put that question, but insofar as Mr Thalede is concerned, there is no need for you to put that question, the applicant has already associated himself with the action of Mr Mbambo.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Indeed so, Madam Chair, my question to the applicant is, I just want to establish if he did not fired any shots, why did he plead guilty on a charge of murder then, at this criminal trial?

CHAIRPERSON: You know, it is your case, you are conducting your client's application, but I don't think we need that evidence, that's already... (intervention).

MR OOSTHUIZEN: As the committee pleases, Madam Chair, I'll leave it then.

CHAIRPERSON: You'll be surprised at the response you might get from your applicant, then you keep on asking unnecessary evidence that has already been established, particularly if it's to your client's favour.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Ja.   Madam Chair, I'm aware of that and I am aware of the answer that the applicant will give, but I'm going to leave it there.

CHAIRPERSON: You may, however, proceed to ask a question about the two attempted murders that he pleaded guilty to, that's what I would like to hear him on.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.   Can you maybe give an explanation to that?    You testified that you never fired a shot, why did you plead guilty on the attempted murder charges?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: It was because I was charged with those charges, and besides, since I was together with Mr Mbambo, if he did ask me at the time that I should shoot Mr Thalede, I would have done it, because our main aim was to go and kill Mr Thalese.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not Thalese.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thalede, Mr Interpreter.   Sorry, I know you're getting tired.

INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, I'm sorry about that, (indistinct) Thalese.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: May I proceed, Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so, Mr Oosthuizen, we are sorry for that interruption.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Sir, in connection with this whole hearing today, is there anything else that you want to address the committee on, or have we basically covered everything?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I think I've said what I was supposed to say.  It will depend on how the committee see facts.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Just a last question from my side, your application today is for the murder and the killing of Mr Thalede.   Is your application also for the two attempted murders?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: That's correct.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Finally, can you just give an explanation to the committee, why didn't you, in your initial application form, mentioned the application for the two attempted murders?

CHAIRPERSON: He did (indistinct).

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Madam Chair, I was just on my way to look.  I see, Madam Chair, paragraph 9A.1, it's on page 3.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the problem with some of these applicants is that we understand they are not literate.   We, therefore, don't... (intervention).

MR OOSTHUIZEN: As the committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: ...take a robust view on how they complete their applications.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: As the committee pleases, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Particularly because we are aware that they are not afforded any Legal Aid in completing the application forms.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: I will accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: I therefore will accept that he had intended to include these two attempted murder charges, because when one has recourse to paragraph 12(c), which is on page 7, he makes a specific reference to... (intervention).

MR OOSTHUIZEN: I see, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...the offences for which he has been convicted and charged.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: I see that.

CHAIRPERSON: So we take it that... (intervention).

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...it was his intention to include them.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We note, however, that at that stage he had not yet been convicted, because he has just testified that he was convicted later in January 1997, but the fact that they are really mentioned there... (intervention).

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Indeed so, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...it is an indication that it was his intention to apply for those offences for which he was already standing trial.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Indeed so, Madam Chair.   May I just get final instructions from my client?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Mr Ngxongo, just to finalise then, is there anything that you wish to address the committee on, specifically with reference to the way that you've completed your application?