Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MR DEHAL: Will you please go to page 10, paragraph 12 and read that into the record, slowly please.
MR LECORDIER
"As is common knowledge I was arrested by the Security Police.  I was repeatedly assaulted, humiliated, intimidated, threatened and abused by the Security Police in diverse ways.  Under the threats, amongst other things, that they would take my family away from me, cause harm to my family, in particular to my son, to his mother and to my mother and father.  And pursuant to various acts of assault on my person, I was induced into becoming an State witness.
		The Security Police insisted that hand-write a statement.  Which I did over several days.  When they were dissatisfied with the first attempt, they made me rewrite it, insisting that I include in it various suggestions and versions they had proffered to me.
		I subsequently, over the many days that passed, made various statements, one after the other and as they rejected each one, I was required to rewrite same.  The final statement was a very detailed statement that went over many, many pages.  I was frustrated and tired through this exercise.
		During the course of the trial, the various State prosecutors from the Attorney-General's office, including the Security Police, insisted that I comply with my statement and keep to it.  And if I dared to deviate from it when I entered the courtroom, they would deal with me when I came out of the courtroom, for I had to return to them as I was in their custody.
		During the course of the trial I was very afraid of both my standing against my comrades and of standing with the police and indeed my fear of standing against the police as well, and indeed against the prosecutors.
		When I entered the courtroom I was very nervous.  I tried to help Robert, but could not do this as shortly after that attempt of mine and during the adjournment that followed, the Security Police and the prosecutors threatened me and held a noose in front of me, which they had on various previous occasions as well, and said that I was close to my death if I dared attempt to save or help Robert in any way.
		I recall that when on the various subsequent adjournments I was placed in a room.  The Security Police and the prosecutors would bring my police statement to me and insist that I go through it thoroughly and keep to it.  I was being brainstormed."
...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Brainwashed.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, that is correct, it's "brainwashed".

CHAIRPERSON: Are you alright, Mr Lecordier?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'm okay.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't want a short break?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Please, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This will be an opportune time to take the short tea adjournment.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MATTHEW LECORDIER: (s.u.o.)

MR DEHAL: (cont)
	Mr Lecordier, you were busy with the background and your involvement as a State witness in those trials, earlier trials.  Do you mind looking at the top of page 11 and beginning at (ix).  "In the result ..."
MR LECORDIER
"In the result, the judge found that I was not a satisfactory State witness, having not made full and open disclosure and did not indemnify me.
		My version as a Security Police witness, as a State witness in the trial was largely incorrect, being a version that the police suggested to me.  In particular, the version relating to my intention at some stage to carry out an armed robbery, was one that the Security Police made up and insisted I add, so as to criminalise this whole political event.  On occasions I attempted to argue this against them, but they beat me up and repeated their threats.  I had to say this in Court.  
		I have since the trial was over, apologised to McBride and we have reconciled and he has understood that I was a victim of circumstances, a victim of the brutal Security Police.
		At some stage after the trial, the Security Police congratulated me on the assistance I gave to them.  They paid me an amount of money, although I do not recall the precise sum.   I think it was either R2 000 or R2 500.  They arranged an employment for me in Cape Town.  However, they wanted me to be a spy for them.  When I refused to continue to participate with them, I was forced out of this employment.  This happened as a result of a fight I was engaged in with one of the co-employees.  On reflection, it appears clear to me that this was set up to force me out of my employment.
		In Cape Town there was a Security Policeman who was in charge of me and whom I remember as Kannemeyer, a Coloured man from Mitchell's Plain.  Shortly I left the above employ, the Security Police again approached me and requested that I infiltrate some of the unions and give information on them.   As I was under pressure from them, I decided that the best thing for me to do was to simply escape, so that they could not trace me.
		The fear I had was, I could not return to Wentworth, my home town, as the people regarded me as a sell-out in view of my having assisted the Security Police in being a State witness against comrade McBride and the other comrades.
		I was at a loss to understand where to go and in the result felt hopeless and lost.  I had no-one to turn to.  The Security Police had made a misery of my life.  They had caused me to be an outcast by my own people and indeed caused me, forcibly, to turn against my very own comrades.  They were not concerned about this position they placed me in, but were selfish in their desires, continuing in their instance that I infiltrate organisations to help them.  In the result I was left alone without friends and family, without a job, utterly frustrated, deeply distressed and not knowing which way to turn.
		As earlier indicated, I was neither indemnified in the earlier trail, nor charged with the acts for which I seek amnesty.  I seek amnesty for all these counts and apologise to any persons that may have been injured or killed, directly or indirectly as a result of my participation in any of the aforesaid operations.
		I have no hesitation in engaging in reconciliation with any of the victims of the family members of the deceased.  I am sorry for this.  It was understood by us that the Security Police were keenly desirous to destroy us after they used us as State witnesses and threw us back into society.  The society kills us for being State witnesses.  The Security Police knew this and wished it upon us.
		When I was in detention and before I became a State witness, the Security Police questioned me only about operations that I was involved in and this made me suspicious about whether any of my comrades and sold out on me, as they were not talking of any other operations and knew of all the operations that I was involved in.  At this stage I became concerned and in the belief that I was sold out by my own comrades, felt it easier to handle being a State witness.  I mention this as I am concerned generally about the people in Wentworth and what view they may hold of me when I am released to Wentworth.  I want them to know that I was forced into this situation.
		I repeat that I am very sorry for all the sorrow, hurt, harm, that I have caused to the victims and their family members as a result of my participation in the various operations."

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, in (xix), on the fourth line the word "their" should read "they".  So it would be as "they were not".  I apologise for that, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Lecordier, you say that at the time you were so threatened by the Security Police and on occasions by the prosecutors, you had a son, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: You had also had threat issued to you in regard to your mother and father.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: What was the threat in regard to your Mom and Dad?