Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-08

ANDILE SHICEKA: We got R1 000 from Transkei.  When we were leaving Transkei we were given that money to use it for transport because if you have to take a bus you have to pay and buy food.  We were not given R1 000 because we were hired, we were not mercenaries.  APLA was not a mercenary organisation.  We were given that money so that we don't encounter problems on the way.  We needed transport, we needed money to pay the bus and buy food until we reach our destination safely.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now I don't think it's quite legitimate, but let me ask you anyway.  She seems to equate what you did then in December 1992, she seems to equate that with what has been happening recently, for example at Planet Hollywood and some other such, what is regarded as terrorist attacks.  Are they the same?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Why do you say they're not the same?

ANDILE SHICEKA: In that there is a difference between a terrorist and a guerilla fighter.  I'm not a terrorist, I'm an indigenous South African and I'm a guerilla fighter.  For me to liberate the African people from the oppressors I have to come to the people who were born in South Africa.
	What happened in Plant Hollywood, as you call it, it is a terrorism action.  It is about people who live somewhere else and they go to another place and terrorise people there.  I'm not a terrorist, I'm a guerilla fighter.  As I've told you, there is a difference between the two.  The people who committed that act in the Plant Hollywood, they've got their own problems with America and of which we are, I'm not part of that, I'm just a guerilla fighter.  I have all the rights to fight for liberation, to fight for liberation of the African people.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The conditions in 1992, December 1992, did they differ from the conditions now in September 1998?  I'm referring particularly to the political conditions.

ANDILE SHICEKA: There is a big difference.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just explain briefly what that difference is, or what you understand the difference to be.

ANDILE SHICEKA: I'm a member of the airforce, I have white friends and they accept me as much as I accept them.  In most places you will find white people visiting us and even in Guguletu you will find white people there visiting friends, there are not problems but previously that never used to be the case.  Whether we like it or not we have problems but today it looks like everyone is happy.  The situation is different from the previous one.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just lastly, you - I may have dealt with it but let me just, just in case I didn't, she says that you were, you just did this out of spite.  You were just spiteful to take this gun, stand in front of a restaurant and just shoot at them.  It's just because it was a white person that you did this out of spite.

ANDILE SHICEKA: I'm a full member of PAC.  I am a member of PAC and as a member of PAC, PAC doesn't hate white people.  I also don't hate white people.  A white person is a human being just like myself.  The problem that we had was this, one was the oppressor and the other one was the oppressed.  I was part of those who were oppressed.
	For me to free myself from this oppression, I had no alternative, I had to free myself.  If I hated white men, why can't I kill them right now?  I'm staying with them, we have friends, we do things together, how do I hate a white person?  He is also a human being.  I don't hate a white man.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions you wish to put to this witness, or the applicant rather?

MR WARNER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do have some questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WARNER: Andile, when you got to Cape Town, you said you told the other members what your mission was and you told them what your plan was, what was that?  What was your plan that you'd come down from Transkei with?  What were the details of your plan?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Will you please repeat your question Sir?

MR WARNER: You were asked when you arrived in Cape Town, who was there?  You said there was Thabo, DK and Chicken Licken.  Then you were asked: "What happened after that"?, and you said that you told those people what their mission was and you also told them what your plan was.  Now I'm asking you what was your plan.

ANDILE SHICEKA: I had one plan, to execute orders that were given to me.  Together with all those people who were in my company we had one purpose, no-one had a different purpose because whatever I was going to do I was going to do it with those people.

MR WARNER: I'm sorry I still don't understand what it was that you told them that you were, you briefed them on what you were going to do, you briefed them on what your instructions were from the High Command, what were those instructions, what did you tell them you were going to do?

ANDILE SHICEKA: To attack the police, attack government and attack white people.

MR WARNER: And do I understand that they also didn't question the general statement of: "Attack white people"?  They didn't question that, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: So no discussion ensued on what it meant to attack white people and who was included in the term: "white people", is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: A little while after that you were asked: "Who planned the train attack"? and you said that is was DK.  You went on to say that DK had said that you must, that it was a good idea for you to attack the train station, and the reason he gave for that was that there were policemen there, in other words, there was a target for you there, the policemen were there, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: You then said to him that you didn't want to do it at the time of the day which he had suggested and your reason for that was that you did not want to hurt innocent civilian African people, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: Did your statements there come from your own personal moral convictions or is it a policy of APLA not to kill innocent people?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Africans.

MR WARNER: So you are saying that it is the policy of APLA to kill white people?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: Even though you do not hate them?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: If I can just draw your attention to the station attack.  You went on to say that you went to attack the station and your purpose in attacking the station was to attack and disarm the policemen, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That is correct.

MR WARNER: You see what I am seeing here, from what we have heard today, is a common thread in that it would appear that the APLA attacks which we have heard about today have all, with the exception of this one, had as their aim the acquiring of weapons for APLA, would you agree with that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Will you please repeat your question?

MR WARNER: Okay.  Toady we've heard applications in terms of a number of offences, applications for amnesty.  I'm putting it to you that the common thread in all of those application, with the exception of this one, is that the purpose behind them was to attack police and military installations in order to acquire weapons to arm APLA soldiers, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That is not true.

MR WARNER: Could you point me to one of the other attacks that we have heard of today, amnesty applications in terms of those attacks, where the purpose was something other than to acquire arms?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I don't want to talk about something that was said or mentioned by other people, let us stick to my case.