Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MSIANDA NTONGA: In Mr Pretorius' I also had a firearm.  First of all we went to the servants' quarters and we knocked at the door, we wanted them to open the door for us and as he was closing the door I was aiming at the door because I could see that he didn't want to open the door.  I just wanted to threaten him to open the door because he had opened the door but he closed the door so as he was closing the door I wanted just to scare him, I shot at the door and unfortunately his hands at the door so he got shot and I saw that when we were inside and apologised to him because my intention was not to shoot at him but to scare him because we wanted him to open the door.  We did not want him to be shot, we wanted him to take us to the farmhouse.

MR KINCAID: Mr Pretorius, did you shoot Mr Pretorius?

MSIANDA NTONGA: That is correct.

MR KINCAID: Why did you shoot Mr Pretorius?

MSIANDA NTONGA: The reason why I shot Mr Pretorius is because I was trying to scare him as he was coming out from the house and there were dogs and the firearm was on and the dog came towards me and I pulled the trigger and the firearm was pointing in his direction.  Those were not my intentions, I didn't want to shoot at him, I just wanted him to come towards us.

MR KINCAID: You say the firearm was pointed in his direction, how were you holding the firearm, did you take deliberate aim or how were you holding this firearm that it was pointed at him?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I was holding it as I'm demonstrating but it was pointing towards his direction, I was just scaring him and the dog appeared and it disturbed me and I pulled the trigger.

MR KINCAID: For purposes of the record Mr Chairman, the applicant indicates that he had the firearm tucked under his right shoulder and indicated that he held it out extended conveying that there was not deliberate aiming of the firearm.

MR KINCAID: Now the shooting of Mr Cobus, the shooting of Mr Pretorius, the shooting of Joe Senti, were those shootings occasioned by any ill will, any spite, any malice, any personal dislike for those victims on your part?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No I didn't even know them, even the employees, Mr Pretorius' employees, I didn't know them so there was no hatred.  Our intentions was to get weapons and to threaten him or to scare him away from his area.  There was nothing else apart from that.

MR KINCAID: I have a possession of an affidavit which I'm going to ask that you confirm in due course but in it you state at paragraph 3
"I am responsible for the shooting of Mr Pretorius and of Mr Senti.  When I discharged those shots I was caught up in the fear of the moment.  It was dark, dogs were barking, the firearm was in my hands and without deliberate aim the shots were discharged."
And then you say:
"To Mr Pretorius and Mr Senti I say sorry for this wrong."
And do you confirm that apology in your testimony?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Dealing with the attack on Mrs Clackers, Msianda, were you involved in this attack?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: How many of you were involved in the attack on Mrs Clackers?

MSIANDA NTONGA: There were three of us.

MR KINCAID: Yourself, Jimmy and?

MSIANDA NTONGA: And the other Nokawusana.

MR KINCAID: Why did you decide to attack Mrs Clackers, why was she the target?

MSIANDA NTONGA: The reason was because at the time there was a consumer boycott, you were not supposed to buy at shops that were owned by white people and we found out that she was trading in that area.  We then decided that certain comrades should go and tell her to close that shop, wanted to threaten her so that she can close the shop.  We didn't want to stop people from buying, we wanted her to close the shop or we would burn the shop and the other reason was to tell them to leave the area and if we found any weapons we would take them, that's why we went to Mrs Clackers.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy wasn't quite sure what the motive was, he suggested that it was to tell her to stop trading but only later on in his testament did he say that when he realised that Mrs Clackers was reaching for something under the counter did he perceive the possibility that she was armed.  Is  your testimony that before you set out to Mrs Clackers that the purpose of getting firearms was in your mind at least or one of the objectives?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes at all times when we were going to the White people we did think that we might get a weapon because it was rare that White people did not have weapons, especially in the rural areas so that was in our minds.

MR KINCAID: Did you assault or injure Mrs Clackers in any way?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No I didn't touch her.

MR KINCAID: Did you have any role on that particular day in that incident, what did you do, if you did anything?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes I did take part, my role, because there were dogs in that area and those dogs were coming towards us I took a broom and I hit the dogs and they went out of the back room and the other one was looking out for the police or for anybody who would come around and as I was hitting these dogs I met a White boy, I tried to call him because I wanted him to come inside the shop to be together with Mrs Clackers and he ran away to the house.  I thought that he might be reaching or going to get a weapon so I told my colleagues that there's this somebody who came and who ran away so we were disturbed and we left.  That was my role.

MR KINCAID: It's suggested that your purpose in going to Mrs Clackers' trading store was merely to rob her of money.  What do you make of that contention Msianda?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I don't know anything about money because I didn't take any money, I just took part as I've already explained before.  We then ran away, the three of us, I didn't see any money from them and they didn't show me any weapon.  We just came back empty handed.

MR KINCAID: The charge sheet alleged and you were convicted of a theft of some batteries as well, batteries and a bread knife.  Did you take batteries or a bread knife or any money?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No I don't remember those things, I don't remember seeing those things or those people.

MR KINCAID: The Marulia incident, Msianda, were you party to the attack on Mrs Marulia?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy's testimony was that the group which attacked Mrs Marulia went to Kei Road in a Combi, confirm that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

MR KINCAID: What was your role, what was your involvement in the attack on Mrs Marulia?

MSIANDA NTONGA: My role was this, after - is this Mrs Marulia, in Kei Road?  I took weapons and bullets, that's my role.  I took two rifles and a lot of bullets, that is all I can remember taking.

MR KINCAID: Did you assault or injure Mrs Marulia in any way?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, I didn't even see her and I never saw her before.  I didn't see anybody there, I just saw blood inside.

MR KINCAID: Msianda, the charge sheet alleges again that there were goods stolen from Mrs Marulia's house which weren't weapons or arms, goods of the normal household nature, cooking utensils and money.  Did you see anyone steal this, did you steal it, were you party to it's removal?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I didn't take any part in that and I didn't see anybody taking such goods, I only saw the items that I had with me, those I just described.

MR KINCAID: The point 22 pistol and the ammunition?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes  I saw the two pistols and the other one had two barrels and the other one had one barrel and one trigger and a Z38.  Those were the three weapons that we found there and a lot of bullets, ammunition that we found.  That is all I saw.

MR KINCAID: Did you bear Mrs Marulia any ill will or spite, did you have any personal reason for wanting to injure her and attack her?