Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1976-07-19

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Oh you shot the second person to be killed?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Because Mr White instructed you to do that?

MR VAN WYK: He instructed me to do that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You could clearly see the person?

MR VAN WYK: Yes, he was running away from me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Ja.  Had that person been White would you still have shot him?

MR VAN WYK: I think at that stage, as he was running away, yes, I would have continued that and as he was a man I would have continued that.  If it was a woman I think I would have - I don't know what I would have done, I would have - I don't know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You are not sure whether you would have....

MR VAN WYK: I don't think I would have, if it was a White woman running away I don't think I would have shot her.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If it was a Black woman running away, do you know what you would have done?

MR VAN WYK: I think at that stage, the way I felt, I would have shot her.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr van Wyk your plan that day was to steal the weapons from the house?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And this was conceived by an excellent military strategist...

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In the name of Mr White?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you knew that when you got there there would only be the servant, Mrs Dubane?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And there would be no-one else, according to the information which you relied upon, because Mr White was a reliable military strategist?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you then enter the premises fully armed?

MR VAN WYK: We entered every operation we went to, even the theft of the motor car, we were fully armed at all times so that in any event of security force involvement we would be able to shoot our way out of the situation.  It was either a situation of shoot yourself out or be killed, one of the two.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But there was no reason for any security measure to crop up which would have required you to use your arms.  You went in there with information, and this was a private house?

MR VAN WYK: That's right but we still, every operation where we went we went armed fully because of our modus operandi I suppose.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So it was not your intention to kill when you went in, yet you went in fully armed into that house?

MR VAN WYK: It was not my intention to kill any civilians but if the police came there I would have been prepared beforehand to fire at them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you say your political objective was to get the Afrikaner on your side and was to provide a safe haven for them?

MR VAN WYK: Ja, I think not so much to get the Afrikaner on our side, I think we wanted those that were already on our side to be united into one grouping and then to enlarge the grouping with the other Afrikaners onto our side.  But that was only the objective within the objective.  There was the broader objective of all White people and the White race in South Africa and to ensure that there would be a White civilisation in Africa still existent.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now on about the 20 to the 21st of September there was a robbery of a motor car that you were involved in?

MR VAN WYK: A robbery, no we never robbed a motor vehicle, we stole ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: There was a theft of a motor vehicle.

MR VAN WYK: There was a theft of a motor vehicle, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you were involved in that theft?

MR VAN WYK: That's right, I was involved.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now your political opponent who was it, was it the Nationalist Party?

MR VAN WYK: At that stage we had a few opponents.  I think we saw everyone that was not for us to be against us, but our main opponents were the National Party and the ANC locally in South Africa.  And as well as I said we were also not targeting but afraid of the Jewish conspiracy operating worldwide and especially in South Africa the way they controlled economics etc  of the country, we felt that there would never be true freedom if we couldn't get rid of them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now who is the person that you stole the motor car from?

MR VAN WYK: I know his name, I can't - van Leeuwen, something like that, someone like that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And this was a White person.

MR VAN WYK: That was a White person, that's right.  Afterwards it became known to me, beforehand we did not know who the car belonged to at all.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how was this theft conducted?

MR VAN WYK: We basically looked for a Golf because we only had the methodology to basically steal a Golf at that stage, so we first of all we had to look for a suitable Golf in an area where there was no movement basically and we drove around looking for a vehicle of that description until we found it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And was Mr van Leeuwen inside his motor car?

MR VAN WYK: No there was no-one in the motor vehicle.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you were not aware of the owner of the vehicle?

MR VAN WYK: No I was not aware of the owner of the vehicle.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now with regard to the incident at Louis Trichardt when you shot at Mrs Roux what was the state of your mind?

MR VAN WYK: I suppose I was, and I say the suppose because I mean if you've been in that situation only once it's difficult to compare it, but I can't really recollect how I went into the house.  All these details escape me now, and I think that was because of a state of shock. I think, although at that stage I did not put a lot of value onto a Black man's life, to see a person killed for the first time in my life did shock me to some extent.  And when I shot into the cupboard I was like an automaton, just following orders.  It really, at that stage I did not think about it twice.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you ordered to shoot into the cupboard?

MR VAN WYK: No I wasn't ordered to shoot into the cupboard.  When he shot into the cupboard I also shot into the cupboard.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On your own?

MR VAN WYK: Yes, after being ordered to kill the Black man, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now with regard to your movement Mr van Wyk, you have stated that at the time of the commission of these crimes your movement was at the first stage, is that correct?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Could it be defined as having been a private movement at that stage?

MR VAN WYK: I don't think so for the reason that you must bear in mind that I did not have much to do with the organisation and the basic planning, but I knew that du Plessis have already made contact with numerous rightwing people and they already gave him support.  For instance we were given a few thousand rands and a motor vehicle for the first operation.  So I think we already had basic support and contact with other rightwing groupings.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How many people would you say belonged to your movement?

MR VAN WYK: At that stage I was only aware of four people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Of four people?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you just got support from the other rightwing movements?

MR VAN WYK: Yes, as I say I was not responsible for those activities and there was also a sort-of need to know basis that you only know that which you need to know, and at that stage I was not made aware of a lot of things.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you involved in any effective recruitment measures to attract more people?

MR VAN WYK: Yes, yes, I was involved in one and indirectly involved in another recruitment procedure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what were those measures which were effected to recruit members?