Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

MR NGCOBO: I sometimes ask myself whether it truly me who killed people in this manner, and the truth comes back to me.  I do not know what I can do to convince those people I killed their children that I am really sorry for what I did.  I do not expect them to forgive me if their hearts do not say so, but I am really sorry.  In Zulu we say there is always a light at the end of the tunnel, and I see the light now because the violence has subsided, although I was touched at what happened in Shobashobane after I was arrested.  What made this incident to touch me is because many woman and old people were killed there.  People in Shobashobane know very well that I was not fighting them or their woman, I was fighting their children.  Nobody can say Shobashobane that I attacked them when I did not get their children.  I am very sorry for what I did to these people.
	I would also like the Commission to give me a chance to say sorry to the Majesty the King of the Zulus, for killing his father's people in this manner.  I also say sorry to the President of my political party because this is not what he wanted me to do.  I was forced to do these things because of how I looked at things at that time, something that is far different from how I see things now.  
	I also ask the president of the country, President Mandela, to pardon me for what I did to his country.  I have realised that these two prominent people are working together to build our country, and there is no need for us in the grass roots to fight each other on political reasons.
	I therefore ask the people I killed their children to forgive me, and I would like to say to the surviving people who were present when my loving mother was killed that I forgive them because I think they do not know what they were doing.  I also blame some of the mothers in Izingolweni area that things became so bad in the area because of their doings.  They let their children to be involved in politics and kill people.  I do not blame all the mothers, no, but those who could not tell their children that what they were doing was bad, because they were afraid that their kids would kill them.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Ngcobo, just a few last questions.  You received a list you said with Dan Cele's killing, where he told you he was involved in your mother's attack, the attack on your mother.  Does this, there is now a lot of charges of murder here, is Mr Dan Cele the only one that you killed regarding your mother's death?  What is the position, what happened to the other people on that list?

MR NGCOBO: I could not get many of the people in the list, people like Steleka and Dan Cele.  I am not the only person who was looking for these people.  Some of them were killed by other people who were wronged by these boys.  However, I am the only one who caught and I was then blamed for all the people who were killed.  That is why I pleaded not guilty because I am not the one who killed them.

MR DE KLERK: You also said in your poem and I think the Commission would like to know about it, that you were trained.  Can you briefly explain to the Commission where you were trained and what was the training?

MR NGCOBO: I was trained in Amatikulu, but I was not trained to go and kill people, but to protect the chief.  That is why I did not use the firearm from the party when I killed these people.  I used the one that I was found with in my possession.

MR DE KLERK: Is there anything else that you want to add?

MR NGCOBO: No, except to say that enough is enough.  Many people have been killed now and arms should be put down.  I once more say I am sorry for what I did.  I am more sorry for the mother of this Cele boy from Ulundi and I cannot set my eyes on his mother because I did not know why I killed his son.  It is only that he was amongst my enemies when I attacked them.  I would also like to address the Zulu family and say it was not my intention to kill their son.  I admit that I am a sinner and I really ask you to forgive me.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence of Mr Ngcobo.

MR DE KLERK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Which of these applications that you have led evidence on, just give me the names of the counts on which you are seeking amnesty.

MR DE KLERK: Count 1 Mr Chairman, that is for Dan Cele, count 2, Xolani Dlamini, the attempted murder for count 3, Thokozani Shazi, Jeffrey Sandile Ncane or Babazani Shezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Those are all count 3?

MR DE KLERK: That is correct, is seems that it is different names for the same person.  Count 4, the murder of Thembinkosi Wellington Mautinqobo.  Count 5, that was the murder of Muntuza Sgadlani Titiza Cele.  Count 6, count of murder, the death of Thomas Mfanafuti Blose.  Count 7, also a count of murder Goodwill Mxolisi Cele.
	Count 8, also attempted murder, the names mentioned there was Maxwell Zulu and or Fana Milton Cele.  Count 9, murder, Khehla Maikashika Mkhize.  Not count 10, that was the attempted murder.  Also not count 11, also not count 12, neither count 13.
	But well for 14, that is the murder of Doda Nxumalo, also known as Doda Nyawose.  Does not apply for amnesty on count 15.  Ask for amnesty on counts 16 and 17.  Does not apply for amnesty on count 18, neither 19, 20, 21, 22.  Also not for 23, 24 and 25.

MR MALAN: Mr De Klerk, may I just ask can you tell us on appeal, which convictions were overturned?

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, as far as I've got it and I must say that I did not see the appeal record itself, I did not have time to speak to Mr Lingenvelder, but as I can understand it, it was counts 23, 24, 25 that is the last three counts regarding the 22nd of October 1991 at Mdeni area.
	Those three I know of, I don't know which is the fourth one my client is talking about.

MR MALAN: Would that be count 10?

MR DE KLERK: I am under the impression, and it is my impression, that it must be count 10.  He was not convicted of 10 however.

CHAIRPERSON: He was not convicted.

MR DE KLERK: It wouldn't have been an appeal.  I am not sure of which was the fourth one.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there no way in which one can put this kind of dispute, this kind of difficulty out of the way?

MR DE KLERK: Yes, if time is given to me, I will find that out.

MR MALAN: Mr De Klerk, from the transcripts of the judgement on page 40 of the bundle, on count 10 indeed, he was found guilty.

MR DE KLERK: Then it is my mistake, then it was count 10.  Count 10 is the matter where Mr Ngcobo testified that Mbambo was actually the killer, or the attempted murderer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are there any questions you wish to put to this applicant?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ngcobo, will you just tell us a bit more about this training you received in Matikulu, were there a group of you being trained, or was it you individually?

MR NGCOBO: We were many, coming from different chiefs in KwaZulu-Natal.

MR BRINK: Were you taught the use of firearms, or had you already learnt that?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR BRINK: Use of firearms to attack and defend?

MR NGCOBO: No, we were trained to protect our chiefs as I said.  People in different areas were selected for training so that they could protect their respective chiefs.

MR BRINK: Were they members of the IFP?

CHAIRPERSON: Try to avoid leading him on that?

MR BRINK: I am cross-examining him on that.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want, I will be interested in what answer he gives?

MR BRINK: Yes.

MR NGCOBO: There were KwaZulu Police, but there we were trained by many people.

MR BRINK: The ZP being the KwaZulu Police.
MR NGCOBO

MR BRINK: Were you a member of the KwaZulu Police?

MR NGCOBO: No.  I was not a member of the KwaZulu Police.

MR BRINK: Can you remember when this training course took place?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember.

MR BRINK: Would it have been about the time, or just before these various offences for which you are seeking amnesty, took place?