Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-10

MR DLAMINI: Take it slowly.  Don't rush yourself.  Try to remember.  Try to recall everything.  We know it's a very sad thing to lose your son.  At the time when we came ... (inaudible) ... Madiba, she went - he went to put the tombstones to the relatives.  That's why I met Winnie Mandela.  I told about my two children who died, because she knew them because we were together in Johannesburg.  She said she didn't hear about that.  I also told her about my child who died.  I said, "He's the one I had during the time Mandela was being arrested, when it appeared on the Sunday Times".  That's when I got injured in Faraday (?).  Winnie didn't say to me she didn't know this child.  She said, "It's all right, my sister, I'm going to Lusaka next week".  I couldn't meet my brother-in-law, Madiba, because a lot of people were looking for him.  After that we never met with Winnie eye to eye personally.  She didn't give me any answer.  I also went back to Dolly, her cousin.  Mrs Mandela was born at Inzidume and Dolly also was born there.  Even Dolly was not telling me the truth, because she spoke - she told me

MR DLAMINI: /that Sabatha

MR DLAMINI: 8B/15 that Sabatha will be joining the first or second group that will be coming from Lusaka.  I left Durban.  I went to Magwa, at the ANC in Transkei.  I met a girl, but I don't know if I should mention their name.

MR DLAMINI: You don't have to mention them, but after that we will need them so that we can contact these people.  I met the Memela girl.  She was also in Magwa.  She said, "I've just heard they were talking about Sabatha".  I went back to Dolly's mother in Transkei and asked her to assist me, if Dolly comes back she must contact me.  Indeed Dolly's mother contacted me.  I woke up in the morning.  It was on a Saturday.  I found Dolly in the room with other boys who were called comrades.  They were talking.  Before her mother had told her that I was in the house, I heard Dolly said, "ANC, they are really so negligent.  Did you see how sad is the Sabatha story?"  I stood up when I heard that.  I didn't know which Sabatha they were talking about, because I also knew that ... (inaudible) ... Sabatha had died in exile.

MR DLAMINI: Please give yourself time.  Don't rush yourself.  We are just going to end now.

WITNESS:   Dolly came.  I asked her about my child.  She said, "No, there's one exile who came back.  I will try and make contact for you with this exile", and she said - she told me the date on which I will meet this exile and, indeed, I went to this exiled person.  When I went to Dolly, Dolly was going to come to Johannesburg.  I did see the person she was with.  They said, "This one it's Mama's Sabatha who disappeared".  I was surprised when she said to me, "This is Sabatha's mother who disappeared", when she had told me that she was going to Lusaka the following week.  This boy said, "Who

MR DLAMINI: /"are you?"

MR DLAMINI: 18B/17 "are you?"  I said, "I'm Madikizela".  I (?) said, "There's a boy who died in Dinage and we realised that we had to take this boy.  I went with a boy who looked like this mother.  I said who she is.  She said she came from Bizana.  Where we are we're not calling ourself by each other's name".  He said, "If you are looking for this boy, you are going to try another name called Dawu".  I didn't ask who her home name was.  I came back to Umtata.  I came back to Durban, because I'm still her in Durban because of my life.  I went to the soldiers.  I went to Point soldiers.  I reported this matter to them.  They phoned APLA.  They phoned the person who is in charge of APLA, and I was told that he wasn't there.  They said I must leave the telephone number where I stay, and I left this telephone number.  I came back to these soldiers in Smith of ANC.  When I arrived there they said it would better if I was bringing his photograph so that they can look at the photograph.  Indeed I went back.  I brought back his photograph.  The first person took this photograph and looked and nodded - I mean shook his head and went to other people, and asked them if, "Didn't you see this boy in exile?"  They said, "Well, his face is familiar.  I think we've seen him.  But when we parted in different directions, because others went for further education and others went to different training".  They said, "Maybe he's furthering his studies.  We're not sure".  I came back.  I was very worried.  There was a burial - there was another Madikizela's funeral.  When we came back I tried to meet Winnie Mandela.  She didn't want to meet me.  She got into the car.

MR DLAMINI: Mama Madikizela, who are the people you could advise

MR DLAMINI: /us to contact

MR DLAMINI: 18B/20 us to contact them, who might have some kind of information about your son?  If you could give us their names afterwards, if you're not feeling safe to give those names here in public.  If you can just give us names of people we can contact.  Another thing that I would like to get information on that here in Umlazi do you have your address and your telephone number, so that the Commission could contact you?

WITNESS:   Yes, there is a telephone at Umlazi, but I can't remember it immediately.

MR DLAMINI: But we could get it from you once you've verified the number and the house address.

WITNESS:   The house number is A122.

MR DLAMINI: I think we should contact all these other people who might have information, even the ANC office here in Durban.  Are there other names of people you can give us who might perhaps lead us to some kind of useful information for investigation?

WITNESS:   On the 30th I was from Bisho and I was told that this funeral had passed.  On the 30th I asked one of my sister's-in-law, Madikizela, to accompany me.  As I was still sitting there in the morning at about quarter past four when the car was there that would take us, I saw a boy greeting me, who said, "Good morning Sabatha's mother".  I got frightened and worried.  Is this the Sabatha I am looking for.  I looked at her.  I said, "Who are you?", and the boy asked, "Are you not Jolihlanga's mother?"  I said, "Yes, I am".  I asked this boy who he was.  He said he was the Gebe boy, Gebezani.  He said to me, "There's a story that I know about him".  I said, "Please accompany me but you'll go back.  I would like to ask you what do you know about Sabatha".  I asked him if he wasn't the one who run away

MR DLAMINI: /University of

MR DLAMINI: 18B/24 University of Cape Town, who went to exile - from the University of Natal.  The mother came and we used to cry together.  I asked, "When last did you see Sabatha".  He said, "I went to Zambia.  That's where I left Sabatha.  Because it would seem we who joined in 1991 whereas Sabatha had already been there for some years because he escaped in 1987, round about March.  I had a friend I came back with from Cape, as I was coming from Cape.  I heard from another meeting here in Bloemfontein who had tried to escape and come back.  When he was in Hammanskraal the white people arrested him.  They said he hung himself in the cell.  There was no proof if this person had hung themselves in their cell.  Now I am scared when you said Sabatha had never returned."

MR DLAMINI: We thank you, Mama, for the indications you have given to us.  We can see that it's very difficult for you to relate the story.  Your pain is beyond what you can bear.  I think maybe we will get some more details once we are with you privately, to get all the details, even the names of all the other people who might have some information and where we could find them.  I will hand over to the Chairperson.  Who would give you some words to console you.

WITNESS:   My husband said you would know where my child is.