Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

ADV PRIOR: Does the name Deon Cele ring a bell?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct yes.

ADV PRIOR: Our information is that he was killed in July or August of 1988.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: It could be the right date yes.

ADV PRIOR: And his body was exhumed at Elandskop?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I found out about that at a later stage.

ADV PRIOR: Try and assist us.  If you think back, were you aware of that elimination or are you saying that in your recollection, that occurred, Deon Cele occurred after Ndwandwe, as far as you can remember?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No, I really can't remember Chairperson.

MR MALAN: May I just ask you, did you apply for the Cele murder?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No.

MR MALAN: So why would you then have known before Ndwandwe, wouldn't you have applied if you had known?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I don't follow the question.

MR MALAN: It was put to you whether or not you know the name Cele and you said yes.  And then it was put to you that he was murdered in July 1988, most probably, and that his body had been uncovered at Elandskop.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes.

MR MALAN: And then it was put to you whether you had knowledge of it.  If one looks at your application, then it appears that with Natal, Ndwandwe was the first person in time with whom you were involved?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That may be so.  I was not involved in the Cele incident and the Bhila incident.

MR MALAN: Mr Steyn, let me attempt to put it to you as follows, why do you doubt whether you would have known before Ndwandwe about any elimination of individuals?  Are there others of which you knew and for which you are not applying for amnesty, is that a possible inference that we must draw?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No, everything that I knew about, I have applied for.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps we must refer to one incident.  Perhaps my learned friend has not referred to it because it wasn't in similar vein as the present applications, but that is the so-called Quarry Road incident in 1986.
	This witness also applies for amnesty in that regard Mr Chairman, that was a shootout.  I believe that is the reason why my learned friend is not referring, just for the sake of clarity.

ADV PRIOR: I am indebted to my learned friend, and thank you Mr Chairman, for clarifying that.
	General, apart from the 1986 Quarry Road matter which was a shootout, we are talking about eliminations, assassinations, murders.  Is it your evidence, your positive evidence that the Ndwandwe matter was the first matter that you were aware of, of the Durban Branch of the Security Police, that were involved in an assassination?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: If I recall correctly Mr Chairperson, that would be so.  I cannot place the incidents in chronological order so quickly.

ADV PRIOR: Do I understand your evidence correctly, the reason why you became involved in the Ndwandwe matter, was because in case it leaked out or people found out about it, that you were able then to be on the spot to suppress information or to cover up as it were?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say he was to be on the spot at the border, if problems arose with them across the border?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Just explain that, let's for example argue that something went wrong.  You were sitting at Onverwacht, how were you going to assist?
	Let's say for example the unit got shot in Manzini, through Swazi Security Forces for example, and that news got back to you, how were you going to then act?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, I was of the opinion and it was our idea that should anything go wrong, some of our members would be able to contact me in whatever way, whether it be illegally by climbing back over the border fence.
	I believed that there would be a manner in which it would come to my knowledge.

ADV PRIOR: What was the plan, was there any plan?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Should anything happen that would lead to some of the members being arrested or shot, I would have to analyze the situation and make a decision as to what to do next.
	In extreme circumstances, such as the arrest of some of our members, I would in all probability have discussed the matter with more senior people and said, look, we have a problem, we have acted in a cross border operation, and I would have to discuss this with senior members.

ADV PRIOR: Would that not have been discussed before your trip into Swaziland, the liaison with higher people, in case something should go wrong?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: As Commander of this operation, I had all those possibilities in mind.

ADV PRIOR: You see General, you would also have been implicated if it came out that something went wrong in Swaziland and you were there at Onverwacht border post, the mere fact that your presence was there, would have implicated you, or compromised your position, would you agree?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Do you mean that should something go wrong in Swaziland?

ADV PRIOR: Exactly.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Well, it wouldn't have been a problem for me, because I would have to handle it from that point.

ADV PRIOR: It wouldn't have become a problem because people higher up than yourself, were aware of that situation?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I don't understand this question, which situation are you referring to?

ADV PRIOR: Well the fact that you would have gone into Swaziland to execute an operation?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Nobody above me knew about this operation.

ADV PRIOR: Well, when Taylor and Botha gave you the presentation, as you have indicated to abduct Ms Ndwandwe out of Swaziland, this was the first time that you were involved in a cross border operation, is that correct?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: In Natal Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: All right, I beg your pardon, you were involved in Botswana.   Did you consider the fall out, the political fall out of your actions in Swaziland?  I mean the embarrassment to the government, to the police?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: It was a consideration Mr Chairperson, but for us it was about committing this deed.

ADV PRIOR: How seriously did you consider that aspect of the operation?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: One would always bear something like that in mind, but what was the greatest factor of consideration for me, was the successful execution of this operation and should any problems arise, we would handle them in accordance with the circumstances.

ADV PRIOR: Would it not have been necessary to discuss this serious type of operation, which had international implications and ramifications, with someone more senior than yourself?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson, I did not do that, I would not do that because then I would involve or implicate people in a higher position than myself in an illegal act.

ADV PRIOR: Were you confident General, that you had the backing of your seniors should anything have gone wrong at that stage?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I believed that I would enjoy support should anything go wrong, regardless of whether we were in a problematic situation or not, however, I did not inform anybody above me about it, because it would have involved more people, it would have involved innocent people in a wrongful act with which we were busy.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, Mr Steyn, isn't it correct that you would not have received permission?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No, I would not have received permission.

MR MALAN: No, you wouldn't have?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And the reason why you didn't tell anybody was not to prevent the implication of others, but because you knew that they would not permit you to do this?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Exactly, they would not permit me to perform an illegal act.