Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That's what I was trying to explain, sir.  Mr Chairperson, in Breyten, when we arrived there, we catch the security guards who were there.  They were black men.  I instructed Mlungisi and Lucky as I had pointed these security guards with guns and they tied them.  The car came and I left the gun in the house.  I wanted them to get into the house so that we can catch them.
	We realised that these white men were aware that we were not the security guards, they reversed the car.  When they got out of the car they started shooting.  I ran to the house and I took the firearm.  I started shooting.  That is why there were people who died there.

MR BLACK: Sorry, at that instance there was only one person who was killed, that was Mr de Bruyn, is that right?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That's correct.  Only one person who died there, the other one was injured.

MR BLACK: Yes.  And if you look at paragraph thirty four (34) on page thirty two (32).  Page thirty two (32), paragraph thirty four (34).  If you look at page thirty three (33), page thirty three (33).  Thirty three (33).  At the bottom you'll see paragraph thirty four (34).  Okay.  There you describe the shooting briefly and you say that you had to be taken to hospital for wounds.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I had already explained that when I opened the gate the white men were reluctant to get in because they released that I was not one of the security guards.  They reversed and when they got out of the car they started shooting.  They shot in the air.  I think that was a warning shot.  I left the gate.  I ran straight to the house and I started shooting.
	When I was trying to get out because I could see the other one was lying in front of the car, when I was trying to get out because there were some stones in front of the house, there were some slabs, I was shot there when I was trying to get out.  I tried to hide behind the car.  We were shooting.  When I was behind the car he came.  I shot and he shot and he hit me on my leg and he left, he ran away.  That is why I had to go to the hospital.

MR BLACK: And who took you to hospital?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I went by myself.

MR BLACK: Yes.  You say then that you were arrested at the hospital.  It was roundabout during seventeen (17) July 1992?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that's correct.

MR BLACK: And since that time you have remained in prison?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR BLACK: Ja.  Will you turn over the page and look at page thirty four (34).  You'll see paragraph thirty five (35).  It says, "Since my arrest I've remained in prison".  Do you see that, paragraph thirty five (35)?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I can see that on page thirty four (34).

MR BLACK: Yes.  Is that the sentence which you received for various offences?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is so.

MR BLACK: You say you were sentenced to a period of two hundred and thirty seven (237) years of imprisonment and you must serve an effective fifty five (55) years?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that's correct.

MR BLACK: Right.  Now, if we can just get now to, on page thirty four (34), section (c), relating to the convictions and the offences for which you were convicted and in respect of which you are seeking amnesty.  The first matter relates to Mr Jwi Zwane.  You see that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I can see that.

MR BLACK: Now, who was Mr Zwane?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Jwi Zwane was a leader of the Black Cats, Black Cats gang.

MR BLACK: You also say that he was an IFP Caprivi trainee?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that's the information I got.

MR BLACK: What was his relationship with Mr Chris Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Chris Ngwenya was his assistant in the Black Cat gang.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Now, how did it come about and why was Mr Zwane a target or why did you kill Mr Zwane, let's put it that way?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I got my training from Cape Town and when I arrived in the Transvaal I got another training and Eric Valla took me to Nelspruit where I met with Jabi Mkhwanazi who is the person who trained me again.  He is the one who told me, who was actually instructing me on what to do, where to go.  He told me that there was a problem in Secunda and Ermelo and Piet Retief.  I was acting under his instructions.

MR BLACK: What military rank did he hold?  First of all, he was a member of the Umkhonto weSizwe, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Jabi Mkhwanazi was my commander, therefore he was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR BLACK: Do you know why Mr Mkhwanazi instructed you to shoot Mr Zwane?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Although he didn't give me the reasons, but I had my own information about this person and all these people who were involved in these incidents.

MR BLACK: Okay.  But now when shooting and carrying out and killing Mr Zwane, were you carrying out military instructions?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That's correct.

MR SANDI: Sorry, Mr Black.  If I can come in for a moment.  Are you saying Mr Mkhwanazi instructed you to kill Mr Zwane without giving you a single reason?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It's not what I am saying, but what I want to say is this.  If you are given an instruction you don't question why.  You've got to take the order and ask questions after, like a soldier.

MR BLACK: Now, if we can continue.  There's also on that same page thirty four (34) reference to Happy Mhlongo, Eric Nkosi and Sibusiso Tito Nkosi.  You see those names?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR BLACK: I may just add, there's a typographical error here, it should be victims referred to two, three and four and not six.  Who are those people?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Happy Mhlongo, Eric Nkosi and Sibusiso Tito Nkosi.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Did they belong to any political organisation?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I don't know if they were involved with any political organisation.

MR BLACK: Here you say in the statement that
"The victims referred to were all IFP sympathisers and activists."
Do you see that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I can see that.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Is that again something which you heard or which you have personal knowledge of?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I think there's a mistake there.  Maybe it's a typing error.

MR BLACK: Well, you go on to say that
"They were actually victims of circumstances as they were with Jwi Zwane at the time and the principal purpose of the operation was kill to Jwi Zwane.  Unfortunately the persons mentioned in the above aforesaid accounts were hit by stray bullets aimed at Zwane.  They were wounded."

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would like to explain this, how did this happen.  I wonder if you will allow me that opportunity to explain in details.

MR BLACK: Yes, ja, certainly.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It was in 1992, but I can't remember the date, but it was in 1992, I was patrolling as usual here at Ermelo.  When I was going up in front of Johnny's shop I saw Jwi Zwane and a person that I didn't know.  It was late in the evening at about seven.
	When I saw Zwane I thought that if he's here now, as the Black Cat gang, they were not moving all around the place, but when I saw him there I knew that there was a list of ANC leaders who were targets.  I was certain when I saw him there, I was certain that he was there to kill John because it was at the time where John was about to close his shop.  I went inside the shop because I wanted to know who was inside.  I noticed that John was not inside the shop.  I went out ... (intervention)

MR BLACK: Sorry, sorry, can I interrupt, sorry.  When you say John, can you just give us the full name?  John who?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (No English translation)

MR BLACK: Okay.

INTERPRETER: The speaker is going too fast.  Could he go a bit slower please.

MR BLACK: Yes.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: When I saw him in front of the shop as I knew him as a leader of the Black Cats ... (intervention)

MR BLACK: Sorry, sorry.  Did you hear what the interpreter said, the translator rather.  What you say she's got to translate into English or whatever.  So, if you could just go a bit slower please.  Thanks.