Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-26

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you very much for your testimony.  Mrs mtimkhulu, I feel humbled and I hope my question is not going to take you back to the story.  At the end of your story you asked your daughter if there was something that you didn't say and she said you covered everything.
 You didn't.  There are two, at least two occasions when the police came to your house looking for Siphiwo.  On one occasion they kicked the doors, on another occasion they detained you for a day.  I know that your testimony on your son is very important, but you'd lost over what actually happened to you.
 And if you don't mind, could you please tell the Commission what happened to you during this period both physically and emotionally and what happened to your family?
 I also would like to refer to same question to Mr Madaka and to find out ...

MR NTSEBEZA: Can you hear?

MRS MTIMKHULU: Yes, I can.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr Madaka, if your parents were, are your parents still alive?   I don't know if your parents were alive during that period, but if they were and if you have the information, it would be important for us to know what happened during that period of harassment of Topsy.  So let's start with Mrs Mtimkhulu.

MRS MTIMKHULU: Could you please repeat the question I didn't get it clearly.  Thank you Commissioner.  I was looking at Mr Madaka, but I've heard your question.  You have two
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questions.  Your first question is during the period when the police came to my place and kicked my doors, how did it feel?
 I don't know whether I got that question right?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Yes, it is right, thank you.

MRS MTIMKHULU: During that period when the police came and kicked the doors at my place, we were deeply affected by what they were doing because we were still suffering from the pain when we lost our son, we didn't even knew what happened to our son.
 We didn't like the way in which they approached us, they would come during the night and they would frighten my children terribly.  They used to come almost daily and you would always be anxious and frightened and you wouldn't know what was going to happen next because they would just come rushing to your house, throw stones and do every horrible thing that they could think of.
 Each time they came there would be a rumble of cars and then at times they would come armed.  This used to terrorise us quite a lot and for quite a long time.  Especially that my husband was old, he was deeply affected and this affected his health.  We had to receive medical attention all the time because of the emotional affect of this harassment.
 My husband is suffering from high blood pressure, he had to be admitted as he was suffering from heart failure.  Even now if he complains about anything which is affecting him, he would always mention that he cannot even lift up his leg.
 I took him to hospital in East London and it was difficult for him to walk.  I had to go and support him and I can associate all this with the consequences of the 
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harassment that we received from the police.  I think he was most affected by all this.
 My children were also affected.  At times when we - they are looking in the old albums, you will see them crying when they see my son.  If you see one of them crying and ask why are they crying, he would always say I don't know what would happen to us and when will we know what happened to our brother.
 That is the experience that we have gone through Mrs Ramashala.  We are affected, we are suffering from ill-health ever since.  I think I have answered your question.
 Let me go further to the second question.  During the day when we were taken to Sanlam, I was preparing to go to the women's union gathering.  It was on a Thursday, because usually we go to church on Thursdays and then I requested this person to take me the following day to Sanlam.
 And then he said no, you are wanted now.  So I had to take off the uniform and then I went along with this person.  I would lie, they just interrogated me.  As I have said before, they used to show me photograph's and also wanted me to identify my son and I would also ask them questions.
 We would exchange questions time and again and they would always promise me that they would assist me because they sympathise with me because I lost my son.  They always said they have a hope to find him.
 Because they knew that they had skills to search for a person, they kept on saying I should tell them when I get a clue.  Not one of us could get Siphiwo.  I think our attempts were futile because nobody ever came back to say, or contact one another to say I've got this clue or have you heard this.
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 Tungata had never even come, because they were the people who were enjoying the situation at the time.  They would just come and interrogate me and they would never say they have a clue about my son or whatever.
 The only thing that they would ask is did I have anything to say about my son's disappearance.  So I'll just answer in whatever manner that I felt that it was proper at the time.  I don't know whether I've answered your question.

MR MADAKA: I have some difficulty in answering your question because I've stated before my situation, but I am going to tell you something that I think it is hearsay.  I was staying with my mother, she was suffering from diabetes.
 My father was working in the Transkei so he just came occasionally at our place.  During the time when I was still here, Roelofse and Nieuwoudt would always come and harass us and my parents were accustomed to this situation.
 Probably Nieuwoudt and Roelofse can be regarded as people who were stupid.  They would stand for quite a long time at our place and they would be guarding our place, so my father knew that he was under police surveillance and he was very happy about that, because he knew that nothing would happen to his place, because the police were always there.
 But at the same time I can see paradoxically this disturbed him a lot.  I think when I crossed the borders, the situation changed a bit, there was an improvement, because the police stopped coming to my place.
 What I can say is that my father experienced a lot of pain because there are only two of us, so he regarded himself as having only one son because I was devoted to the struggle, so  I went on exile and then he regarded himself 
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as having only one son.
 So my father was disturbed about the whole situation.  But the mere fact that he didn't know where I was and the people used to tell me that he was blind and he became deaf and I think he was affected by the stress under which he was exposed to.
 Thank you very much.

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: The statement made by Mr Lamani, right at the very end, he mentioned that a certain Themba arrived and to accompany Topsy to Lulu's house.  I understand that Themba is on the stage now, is that correct?  I would like to or Mr Ntsebeza would like to ask you just very brief question.  Are you agreeable to that?

MR LAMANI: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Then I must ask you just to stand to take the oath.

THEMBA MANGQASE: (sworn states)

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you very much Themba.  I can see that you are unfortunate because you are right here in front of us but we didn't contact you to confirm some of the facts.
 But I think what Mr Lamani said we would just like to find out a few things about his story.  Your colleague says the last time when he saw the late is when the two gentlemen said they were going to Lulu's place.  Can you please take it from there?