Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

MR MAPOMA: Are you aware that for you to get amnesty you must have committed an offence for which you ask amnesty?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I am.

MR MAPOMA: Now the Ehlanzeni area, was it an IFP or ANC dominated area?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It had become an IFP area.

MR MAPOMA: Then the Danganye area, was it a mixed area or an ANC or IFP dominated area?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It was mixed, but the IFP resided on the upper part of Danganye and on the lower part it would be the ANC, and I resided within that ANC area.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know Mcotoyi High School?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Is it an area located at your place?  Is it a school located in your area?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, it is in the ANC area.

MR MAPOMA: Are you aware that the deceased was a student at that school during that time? - when you killed him.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Although I do not have such knowledge, but it is not possible that he would have attended school there because all children were IFP followers had been removed or had left that school and I knew him to be an IFP member, so there was no way that he could have been attending that school because he was a well-known IFP member.   He used to attend their meetings and everything.

MR MAPOMA: So are you saying all IFP aligned students were removed from that school?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now on paragraph 5 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you repeat the name of that school again.

MR MAPOMA: The Mcotoyi High School.  Mcotoyi is M-c-o-t-o-y-i.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: On paragraph 5 of your statement, which is Exhibit A, you say on the first sentence
"During or about the 1st January 1992, I was accompanied by Izak Msomi and Kwazi Mbambo"
Where were you up to when you were accompanied by these two gentlemen?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: We were not going anywhere, we were at home.

MR MAPOMA: Then why do you say you were accompanied?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I don't know about that, what I do know is that I and those gentlemen were at home.  That must be a mistake in that statement.

MR MAPOMA: When you say you were at home, what do you mean?  Were you at your own home?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: We were at Mr Myene's home which we guarded.

MR MAPOMA: And then you say the deceased was in the company of some people, who were those people whom you say he was in the company of?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I can mentioned the deceased, Xiso Mbambo as well as Magwegwe Luthuli - he was also known as Beki, as well as Duba and another one known as Scuxa Mbambo.  I have forgotten the rest, but most of them were from the Mbambo family, as well as a Thulani Sibisi.

MR MAPOMA: In what area were they from?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: They all resided in one area together with the deceased.

MR MAPOMA: How far is Ehlanzeni from your area?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: From my home to Ehlanzeni you pass three different areas.  That is before you get to Ehlanzeni.

MR MAPOMA: Would you bear with me, Chairperson, sorry.  In paragraph 9 of Exhibit A you say
"The deceased had attacked and killed other ANC people."
Where do you get that?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I say that because I witnessed it happening. I know of several comrades who had been attacked by him.  Some died and one of the people who had been attacked by the deceased was my own brother.

MR MAPOMA: When was that when your brother was attacked by the deceased?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Around 1989.  I think it was on the 1st of January as he was taking out the cattle to graze, that was when he was attacked.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Chairperson, very briefly.
	If I may take you to page 24 of the record, on that aspect which the Chairperson dealt with, would you mind looking at that.  Sorry, page 25.  This is a version you gave to the Court on the 22nd of January '92, at that stage you were not represented by an attorney because I see in response to some questions the Magistrate asked, you said that your - that's at the bottom of page 25, you will have your own defence counsel, Linda Zama of Linda Zama and Company, correct?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: And in the middle of that page I see in addition to the words that were read earlier, you said -"I admit that I stabbed the deceased with his own knife."
That's the fifth line under accused number two in the middle of the page.  Do you see this?  I'll show it to you.  Did you say that to the Magistrate?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR DEHAL: You mentioned that the statement which you made to the police on page 20, was one that you made whilst you were being assaulted by the police.  Do you see that statement that I showed to you?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR DEHAL: And when you spoke at Court as per page 25 of the record, on the 22nd of January '92 - we know now that you had no lawyer at the time, was this policeman who took your statement or the police who assaulted you, present in Court at the time?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, they were.

MR DEHAL: As a matter of interest, did accused number one have a lawyer on that day or was he also unrepresented?  I see on page 25 he says he also wanted Linda Zama to represent him.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: He did have - we had one attorney, that was Linda Zama.

MR DEHAL: Yes, but on this day when both of you recorded your brief statements, that's the 22nd of January '92 when this was recorded your attorney was not at Court ...(intervention)

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR DEHAL: Yes, 22nd of January.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, the attorney was not present.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: As well as giving the name of your attorney you gave her telephone number, is that correct, or did the Court insert that based in its own knowledge of her frequent appearances?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you give the telephone number of the attorney to the Magistrate?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I do not recall giving out the number to the Magistrate.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.
	And you mentioned earlier that - on page 25 you talk about-
"We stabbed him"
... and when questioned about you said "we", you said Msomi had helped you to hold the deceased and therefore you referred to him as having assisted you to stab the deceased.  Do you remember that?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Are you saying that Msomi or any of the others who were in your company, had not stabbed the deceased and in fact you alone stabbed the deceased?  Is that correct?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: And is it your version that at no stage did you or the others chase the deceased for the deceased is the one who chased you and any reference to having chased the deceased is incorrect?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I did not chase the deceased.

MR DEHAL: You also mention that you saw the deceased on many occasions - you witnessed the deceased on many occasions assault and kill other ANC persons, do you remember that?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Was the deceased at some stage an ANC member but defected to the IFP?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, he was once a member of the ANC and later defected to the IFP.

MR DEHAL: Towards the terminal end of your evidence just before I began to re-examine you, you said of the persons the deceased had assaulted, stabbed, he had killed - sorry some of them died, now do you know who had died as a result of the deceased's activity?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I can recall a few, one was Mr Cele -in fact there were three persons from the Cele family, two men and one child and one was from the Mngade household and a Mr Hlope.  They used to attack people, a lot of people.  Some attacks I would witness.