Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

UNKNOWN: Right, now between 1980 and 1986 when you were assaulted, this hammer assault, how, can you roughly say, how many time you've been arrested?  Was it many times, six times?

MR MOHAPE: It has been many times.

UNKNOWN: Many times?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And who interrogated, who asked you questions during those arrests and detentions?

MR MOHAPE: At that time?

UNKNOWN: Before the assault.

MR MOHAPE: At that time still there was the three Prinsloos and I don't know later when Erasmus join them but what year perhaps he did join them but amongst all those you know, taking home and asking questions, he later appeared and Shaw also appeared.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MR MOHAPE: Shaw.

UNKNOWN: Was that also before 1986?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And Mamome, when did he appear?

MR MOHAPE: I knew Mamome, I think after 1986.  I started to know Mamome when he was joining them like - I don't know where he has been, either he has been in those offices or whatever, but they was going against him, going to me and I will see him being part of them, that's how I knew Mamome.  And I think that happened mainly generally after, you know, that the experience of the kidnapping.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Motsamai?

MR MOHAPE: I cannot correctly recall when did I first know Motsamai but I remember during 1986 he has also come in the picture but I don't when did I exactly knew him, from which year I've known him.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: I've got three loose ends Mr Chairman, I'll try to remember to come back to all of them but I believe that I've now got to follow up on this.  Just in regard to your reply that you got to know Mr Mamome only after your kidnapping and assault in 1986, I want to put it to you that that's an highly unlikely reply, bearing in mind that he joined the security branch already in 1980 here in Bloemfontein?

MR MOHAPE: No, I don't think that you must ask me.  I think it's as clear as the time I knew him as Mamome, I knew him in 1986.  To me that he joined the security branch in 1980 that is not my, it's not me to answer to that.

MR VISSER: Well I'm putting it to you that you're not telling us the truth because you're a person who had been consistently arrested, according to you evidence, since 1980.
	You told us yesterday that you considered the security branch to be your enemies and you would have made quite certain to know them.  Certainly Mr Mohape, do you really want to tell us that you didn't know who the members of the security branch were?

MR MOHAPE: Don't mix the issues.  It doesn't mean each and every member of the security branch I will know, not all of them.  And being my business to know them, I will know them.  I will not make an investigation to go and spy on them and know their names and stand in the corners and check who they are.
	Normally I will know them when they are harassing me when they take me to their offices, I will know who's this one.  I will try to maybe get their name if I don't know the name at that time but it will not mean I had a duty to really, you know, take a book, stand in the corners and try to find out who is in the security branch offices, who are they?  No, no, don't mistake that.

MR VISSER: But you took the trouble yesterday of singling out Mr Mamome as being, as the Chairman has put it today: "normally" I think you said, Mr Chairman.  	According to our note "who was always present" during you arrests but I may be wrong, I know it may be wrong and I suggested to you on the basis then, that, mostly he was present during all your arrests, your 20, 15 arrests?

MR MOHAPE: Correct yourself.

MR STANDER: I must object, Mr Chairman, the witness agreed clearly, after 1986 not before 1986.  After 1986 Mamome was then on a continuous basis present.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I make a suggestion to progress with this matter, it's already clear that there is no way in which we will finish by next Friday, we'll ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: If we continue like this Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: No, it's obvious Mr Chairman, that we're not going to finish.  We'll have to obtain a record anyway.  I'm going to step off these points and leave it for argument on the record after we've obtained it, Mr Chairman, because it's quite, my submission to you - and I don't want to enter into an argument now, he never made that qualification which is now relied upon by my learned friend Mr Stander but I want to go forward.

CHAIRPERSON: I read the thing that he said apparently it was after Ngo that he started seeing Mamome there.  That is the qualification, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Is that a - today is the qualification, certainly, but not yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday - I read it in my notes, that he said: "after Ngo was working for Erasmus".

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, well that's why I say rather leave it for the record because I can't remember.
	At all events, I'm suggesting to you that you would have know pretty well who the members of the security branch, were given the activities in which you were involved ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser can't you please qualify your answer, that he would have known the members of the security branch engaged in investigating COSAS.  There were members of the security branch doing all sorts of other things and you have continually been suggesting to him that he would have known all the members of the security branch.

MR VISSER: I take your point and I stand corrected Mr Chairman.  Let me put it more crisply to you.  I would suggest to you, given the activities in which you were involved, you would have known Mr Mamome long before 1986, isn't that so Mr Mohape?

MR MOHAPE: Well that's your assumption.

MR VISSER: You disagree with that?

MR MOHAPE: I disagree with that.

MR VISSER: Alright.  How did you now establish since yesterday until this morning, the dates that you have just given us?

MR MOHAPE: I think I was clear to say I need to sit down and recollect the events and the dates and the years and I've done that, I've consulted with my lawyer and I've done that.

MR VISSER: Didn't you consult with Mr Ngo?

MR MOHAPE: No man, I'm not going to answer that.

MR VISSER: You're free not to answer it.  Were you talking to Mr Ngo here this morning?

MR MOHAPE: I have been talking to him, greeting him every day like everybody else.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  You see at page 222 of the record - Mr Chairman, at the bottom of the page, there are some questions put by Mr Stander to Mr Ngo.  He says, now according to Mr Mohape, that's you, he was and then he breaks off and then he says
"They started beating him up at the stage when he was in the bakkie"
as you've testified here.
"but he didn't know it was Warrant Officer Tsoametsi and Mamome because he didn't know them at that stage"
which is the same evidence as you've given here today.  Ngo's then asked by Mr Stander 
"Is that true as far as you are concerned?"
 Ngo say at page 223:
"That can be the truth because they came with him but we met them whilst only after they have kidnapped him, I wouldn't know about that"
Then he goes down the page, at page 223, approximately in the middle Mr Chairman:
Mr Stander: "How many of you are there?  We know there were two vehicles, the one with  Tsoametsi and Mamome.  Now, the other vehicle.  Who was in the other vehicle?"
		Mr Ngo: "It was myself, Motsamai and Mtyhala"  "Where did you get the weapon from with which he was assaulted?" 
and then he goes on.  Then the third line from the bottom:  
"Did all of you people assault him?"
		"Yes we all assaulted him" 
etc.  Now, in the record when Mr Ngo himself gives evidence - I though that page 222 Mr Chairman, may I just check on that, it is in the bundle of evidence which you refer to as A2.