Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR HLOPE: I knew he was a member of the UDF or he was affiliated to the UDF because we had heard that there was some goings-on at his place and he was an opponent, that is our opponent as well as Djamile's opponent.

MR DIAZ: But as you had admitted earlier in response to Mr Chairman's questions, these things that you simply heard you did not know of them of your own accord, you did not know of them first hand?

MR HLOPE: That is correct that was hearsay, I do admit that.

MR DIAZ: I want to put it to you that your earlier testimony about the existence of an old lady who constantly reported to Djamile about UDF and ANC meetings at the late Mkhize's house, was an untruth added only to give a political tinge to the murder of Mr Mkhize so as to motivate your application for amnesty on political grounds.

MR HLOPE: I deny that.  What I'm saying is, as I was helping Mr Djamile I used to point out his enemies, that is his political opponents as I was trained by Mr Djamile to believe that the UDF was our political opponent as well as an enemy.  They were killing innocent people.

MR DIAZ: Mr Hlope, you admitted earlier that you were paid R600-00 a month -  you were given a membership card - you were given a 9mm firearm, do you remember?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do.

MR DIAZ: But all of that took place after the death of Mr Mkhize, do you recall that?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I do.

MR DIAZ: Mr Mkhize died on the 15th of July 1988 and you were given your so-called membership identity card, firearm and overalls etc., in 1989, correct?

MR HLOPE: That is correct.

MR DIAZ: Your role insofar as the killing of Mr Mkhize was concerned was simply, went simply to the extent of following Djamile's orders.

MR HLOPE: Could you please clarify that?

MR DIAZ: Well as regards the killing of Mr Mkhize, all you did was simply listen to Mr Djamile and point out Mkhize, is that your evidence?

MR HLOPE: I have admitted at first that I had a part in the killing of Mr Mkhize because I went to check on him personally being directed by Djamile who was a senior member of the IFP which was my organisation and I did that as a member of the IFP.

MR DIAZ: Yes, but you've just agreed now that you had no membership card by then.  To what extent do you regard yourself as having been at that stage, an IFP member?

MR HLOPE: In my affidavit it is explained as to how I joined the IFP in 1987 after I had pointed out some members of the UDF for Mr Djamile.  The appointment was effected in 1989, I've already explained that.

ADV DE JAGER: Isn't there a confusion about the appointment as a special constable and the joining of the IFP, the two separate membership cards, could you ...(intervention)

MR DIAZ: Sorry, Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I have not heard any evidence about two separate membership cards but until now all I've heard about is his single membership card and his joining in the year 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the document that we heard about was an appointment certificate, appointing him as a special constable.  I don't know anything yet about his IFP card and when that was issued, perhaps you can clear that up?

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Hlope, you say that it's all contained in your affidavit, can you tell us when did you become a member of the IFP?

MR HLOPE: During 1987.

MR DIAZ: And did IFP members carry cards to show proof of their membership of the IFP?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) I think you want to know what ...(intervention)

MR HLOPE: What do you mean, memberships cards or what are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to this - you say you joined the IFP in 1987, were you issued a membership card to show that you were a member?

MR HLOPE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	And you say that in listening to Djamile you did so in the execution of your orders as a member of the IFP?

MR HLOPE: That is correct.

MR DIAZ: But at the time Mr Mkhize was killed, however much you may have been a member of the IFP, your knowledge of the late Mr Mkhize's political role was only from what you heard and not from what you knew, correct?

MR HLOPE: I would like to explain that Mr Mkhize was involved in politics although I do not know to what extent.   I had heard from people, that is the person who was giving information to Mr Djamile had given information to the effect that Mr Mkhize was involved in politics.

MR DIAZ: Yes but Mr Hlope you did not know this of first hand which is the reason why when the Chairman questioned you, you admitted that you only heard of such activities of Mr Mkhize, correct?

MR HLOPE: That is correct, I had heard.

MR DIAZ: You talked about how you identified a red Chevrolet that the late Mr Mkhize drove in.

MR HLOPE: That is true, he was using that car.

MR DIAZ: Do you know whether Mr Mkhize was killed in the red Chevrolet?

MR HLOPE: I have no truth thereof but I heard later on that he was shot in the car.

MR DIAZ: By saying, in the car you mean the red Chevrolet?

MR HLOPE: I'm not referring to the red Chevrolet as I'm saying to you, I heard thereafter that he was shot in a car but not in the car.

MR DIAZ: How long before Mr Mkhize came to be shot, did you identify this red Chevrolet, was it a day before, a week before or a month before?

MR HLOPE: I saw that before he was shot.

MR DIAZ: Yes sorry, but how long before, was it the day before?

MR HLOPE: I saw it on the very same day, that is today then the following day he was shot.

MR DIAZ: You see Mr Hlope, that's the difficulty I have with your evidence in this regard because my instructions are that the late Mr Mkhize had sold this red Chevrolet in February 1988 which is well before his death.  He died on the 15th of July 1988 and at the time of his death all he had was a blue Ford Cortina and a maroon Peugeot.

MR HLOPE: What I'm saying is, I went there being sent by Mr Djamile, I saw his car and I went back to report to Mr Djamile as I had been sent.

MR DIAZ: Could you be mistaken about this vehicle?

MR HLOPE: No, I'm not mistaken.

MR DIAZ: Well if what Mrs Mkhize says is true about the sale of the red Chevrolet in February 1988, you do accept that it can't be possible that you saw a red Chevrolet that Mr Mkhize was in?

MR HLOPE: Yes, if that is what you say maybe that could be so.

MR DIAZ: My instructions are also that Mr Mkhize did not have any or did not hold any ANC or UDF meetings at his home as you had spoken of.

MR HLOPE: I deny that.  I do have people who can come before this Truth Commission to testify with regard to that.  And I would like to explain further that as you are asking me about Mrs Mkhize, I wonder if Mrs Mkhize knows that the person who killed Mr Mkhize is prepared to admit that he's the one that killed Mr Mkhize.  	I wonder if all of you are aware of that, that is why I have come before the Truth Commission, I have come to explain with regard to the role that I played in the killing but I did not personally kill him.

MR DIAZ: Mr Hlope, who is this person that will admit the killing of Mr Mkhize?

MR HLOPE: I would like to confer with my attorney before I go any further with regard to that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: He may well be giving hearsay evidence.

MR DIAZ: I accept that Mr Chairman.
	You see Mr Mkhize had housed a number of youths who were pursued by the police at the time and that is as much as he did as opposed to holding ANC and UDF meetings.