Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-27

MR WILLS: I think what we should do, Mr Chairperson is possible Dr Naidoo can use Mr Visser's tape and Mr Visser can be present when the height is taken and so there's no dispute about it.  And I suggest that the heights of the three, or I think all five people ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well we'll leave that to you, we don't really - we've seen Mr Kubheka every day, we've seen the Sisi.  We can measure perhaps Mrs Masetla, because she's testified as to her height.  I don't want to put any restrictions, but we know that ...

MR WILLS: Yes, and then possibly at the same time we can satisfy the query about Mrs Dludla.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you want to do that now before I ask people if they want to cross-examine Dr Naidoo on this further evidence, then we can have that as part of his evidence, or will it be measured and then handed in by consent?  I don't know what you want to do.

MR WILLS: As you please, Mr Chairperson, perhaps that will be convenient.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps do it now and you can let us know as soon as you are ready and then we can reconvene.  We apologise to the family Kubheka, for the inconvenience of having to be measured so often.  We'll take an adjournment now, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

S R NAIDOO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Dr Naidoo, during the adjournment you again - well you measured Ms Masetla and what was the conclusions of your measurement, in height?

S R NAIDOO: Mrs Lyn Masetla, the height that I measured, I measured it twice, the conclusive height that we got was 1,5 metres, 1,50 metres.  Almost exactly.

MR WILLS: And did you take any measurements of Mrs Dludla?

S R NAIDOO: Yes, I did.

MR WILLS: And what were those?

S R NAIDOO: It was also 1,5 metres.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.  Any questions, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Is it also true that I asked you to measure the width as best you could, an approximate width but as accurately as possible of Mrs Dludla's hips?

S R NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you ascertained that at?

S R NAIDOO: 42.

MR VISSER: 42 centimetres?

S R NAIDOO: Centimetres, yes.

MR VISSER: I just heard you say that you measured Mrs Masetla twice and you say the height was 1,50, but when I was there there was a difference.

S R NAIDOO: Yes, what we did was use a ruler this time and try and get a real level, a level ...  You realise ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: A ruler over the head?

S R NAIDOO: Yes, over the head.  A very slight inclination of a ruler or a book can give you at the end of the ...(indistinct) as significant ...

MR VISSER: But just for the record, the first measurement was 1,55 - 1,505?

S R NAIDOO: Yes, 1,505.

MR VISSER: In other words, 150 1/2 ?

S R NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now Doctor, when you gave evidence yesterday I asked you some questions about the Lundi's formula.  You will recall that.

S R NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you told this Committee, and please stop me if I'm wrong, that there is a 5% error factor that, as I understood your evidence, that one must either add or subtract as far as the Lundi's formula is concerned in establishing height of a skeleton.

S R NAIDOO: Yes.  I'm no mathematician nor statistician, I'm just making an assumption to be very honest, out of ignorance, that this is - the range that is given is a confidence interval.

MR VISSER: Yes.

S R NAIDOO: Such as a 95% confidence interval.  I don't know whether this is a 90% confidence interval for that matter.

MR VISSER: Well, I'm just sticking to what you said yesterday, Dr Naidoo, ...(intervention)

S R NAIDOO: You understand ...

MR VISSER: ... you said there's a 5% error margin.  I specifically asked you that.

S R NAIDOO: If that were a 95% confidence interval.

MR VISSER: And wasn't it?

S R NAIDOO: I have no idea.

MR VISSER: What does that mean?  What does that evidence mean?

S R NAIDOO: What does a confidence interval mean?

MR VISSER: No.  What do you mean by saying that you don't know whether there's a confidence interval ...(indistinct - coughing) these measurements?

S R NAIDOO: I have no - I'm not too sure of what the statistics would actually call that range.  Whether it's a range of values and with it comes a confidence interval, such as to say that 95% of cases in the general population with that height of femur, measurement of femur, will fall within that range, I have not really looked into that.

MR VISSER: What did you intend this Committee to understand when you gave the evidence of the 95% confidence range?  What did you want us to understand you to mean?

S R NAIDOO: That the - broadly speaking, most people with that height, most South African black females with that measurement of femur, should be within that range of height.  That was all.

MR VISSER: Of 1,35 to 1,42?

S R NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And didn't you intend to express the opinion that that would be 95% accurate?

S R NAIDOO: Yes, if that was the confidence interval that we're looking at, if that expression of that range is a 95% confidence interval, then that's what it would be intended to mean.

MR VISSER: Frankly I just don't understand your answer, but let's go on.  Would you also perhaps recall that ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chair, if my learned friend doesn't understand the answer, would he like maybe to give an opportunity for the Doctor to explain such that he understands?

CHAIRPERSON: It's up to him if he wants to ask.

MS THABETHE: It's up to him, not - okay.

MR VISSER: Doctor Naidoo, when I cross-examined you yesterday I asked you whether the bottom range of 1,35 and the top range of 1,42 were the two extremes, do you remember that?

S R NAIDOO: I'm not too sure of the actual wording, but I ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Those were the words.

S R NAIDOO: ... you discussing that, yes.

MR VISSER: Those were the words from my notes.  And I specifically asked you whether it is your evidence that if the actual height of the person sought to be identified from the skeleton, fell outside those limits, whether you would consider that to be a rule-out.  Do you remember that?

S R NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you said yes.

S R NAIDOO: I can't recall the actual question.

MR VISSER: Oh well Doctor Naidoo, what you said here today is directly in conflict with your evidence of yesterday, and the record will show it.

S R NAIDOO: Do we have a record of it?  No, not at this stage.

MR VISSER: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: I'll look at my notes now, not that my notes are verbatim.  Sorry Mr Visser, you say that he testified that - you're putting it to him that he testified that if it fell without the parameters, it's a rule-out.

MR VISSER: It's a rule-out.

CHAIRPERSON: But before I look at my notes, my understanding was that he did say that there was this 95% confidence level, so ...

MR VISSER: Yes, I'm just coming to that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't understand that it would be a rule-out because what happens to the other 5%?

MR VISSER: I'm just going to put that to him now.
	If one assumes, if one assumes a 5% error margin and if one assumes that your evidence did not intend to mean that it would fall within that limit but outside the limits, I suggest to you that we still don't come by the length that we now know Mrs Kubheka was, namely approximately 151/152 centimetres, according to Mrs Masetla.

S R NAIDOO: Well what I recall yesterday was - I think I recall we spoke about a 1,6 metres in height and I indicated 20 centimetres is the difference between the upper limit on this side and that carries with it a lower probability.

MR VISSER: Well we spoke about rule-outs, Doctor, let's not speak about probabilities here.  What would you regard ...(intervention)

S R NAIDOO: But you see you can't rule out anything.

MR VISSER: I see.