Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: What is being asked of you Mr Hlongwane is you've said that the Mpumalanga area was divided into areas where IFP supporters lived and UDF supporters lived, they lived in different areas yet while saying that, you say that there was a revenge attack on the Nglovu's house which you describe as being your neighbour which is five or six houses from you.  Now were you living in a UDF area or what is the position?  It just doesn't seem consistent with your previous statement.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I will try to explain so that you can understand.  By that time when we attacked Nglovu's, the houses that were left they were houses with the bodyguards in that section.  At Nglovu's place it actually was the last to attack because it was always guarded and then all the lists, the number of people that he's listing, all those guys and it is directly opposite.  At home it's Teleweni and on the opposite it is the UDF, that's what I'm trying to explain.

ADV MOTATA: ...[inaudible] when you said it was about six houses away, you meant six houses opposite your home - am I understanding you to say that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes what was happening at my yard they would see it and vice versa.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Hlongwane.  I've got no further questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hlongwane, those two girls, how many times were they raped?  How many times?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I only raped her once I don't know about Mondli.  I don't know about Mondli but I did it once.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a situation at all which one might describe as a gang rape where you whole group or a large number of your group raped them?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I can't quite remember were there others.  If they like they would do that because the   intention was to torture initially, make them feel the pain.  I wouldn't know.  At times I used to go and fetch the car and leave them with the girls so on my way there, when I was at 4, I didn't know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: See with regard to that particular incident, you know you've described a number of incidents where you and group have been involved in the killing of people where you go and have a target, you kill the target and if anything else over and above the killing you may have burned the body but you didn't take anything away from the scene, you only went there for the purpose of killing, which you did.  Do you agree with that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No, that's not the case.  Whether I'm there or not the fridge used to be opened and the boys used to take T.V.'s, radios and so on and even then when they came that's what they used to do so that used to occur.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was a question of plundering as well, you would plunder and take away goods as well?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That wasn't just been a thief, it was just revenge, a mere revenge, it wasn't mere plundering, that wasn't plundering.  Plundering would say - you know you would go to a person on the street and actually take that person's money so then that then they would go to a certain house, if they're looking for someone, they don't find that person then they would open the fridges and take whatsoever, food and money.  So if that's what they're doing to us then we should also do to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you were doing this when you were at Mpumalanga '85 through to '88, what income did you receive, what was your source of income?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I was working at Glacier Bearings.  I started with R120's if I'm not mistaken but at the end I was getting R242.50.  IFP I didn't get even a cent.  What I was actually getting is that my nation wouldn't actually be ruled by the communists.  This place that I'm referring to it's just staying with me - you can actually phone that place, that's when Zekele Nkethle took me, I was actually by then registered by then.  I used to work during the day and at night I used to attack houses, during the day go to work and at times I would sleep during the day at work and there was no money that I received from the IFP, not even a pen, not even a cent.

CHAIRPERSON: So was it you only received moneys from IFP as an income after you left Mpumalanga and went up to Ulundi?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed.  The money that I received was the money that I was given by M.Z. Khumalo.  I got arrested still being paid by him at the end.  No money was terminated, I was getting paid for being an Inkatha soldier at the end of the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to confirm, Zekele Nkethle is now deceased, he is no longer living?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes, that's the central committee member who died but now there was another one, M.Z. Khumalo who knows everything about what I am talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when Zekele said to you, you know, once again going to this incident with the girls and you went to him and he said, you know, do with them what you like basically, he gave you an open, he gave you carte blanche what to do but he then said well, take blood from them, cut their throats and take blood for traditional medicine.  Why didn't you query that order, because obviously that taking of blood from the necks of the girls and bringing it back surely had no political significance at all?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: It's that I did not actually like writing what I've heard.  When I arrived they were using the medicine and the blood was taken so when Zekele told me to do this I just carried it out, the action.  Zekele Lana is my witness, Nkolisi used to tell me, so what I'm saying it's not a hearsay, it's so unfortunate that this very same ....[inaudible] jump these chickens but where Zekele is lying even his bones knows very well that the violence here at Mpumalanga is because of him and our hands.  He knows very well lying there on the soil.   Even now, even if he wakes up I would tell him that on such and such a day we held a meeting and this is what transpired.  What I'm talking about it's such - amazing that this rape they're actually perceiving it as like a crime or something.  If I can explain without taking your time.  Yes indeed, when I left to Ulundi I actually arrived at M.Z. who was the assistant to Mr Buthelezi.  The bed was given to me, food was given, everything and thereafter I was supposed to go for a training and thereafter Mondli was arrested and then I was taken to stay in his store.  His wife used to call me her son.  Whenever I wanted I used to drink tea, whenever I needed a gun I used to get it.  I was doing something that was done by Inkatha from there on the bottom.  My money never stopped, it wasn't terminated.  Everyone knows very well what I was doing wherever and whenever.  I carried all these things.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Wills do you have any questions arising from questions put by the panel?

MR WILLS: Yes thank you, just to clear up one or two issues quickly Mr Chairperson.	Committee Member, Mr Moloi, asked you about the fact that you never caught up with Sgangi, is that correct?  And you answered and you answered in the affirmative that you did not?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I did.

MR WILLS: And you also indicated in your answer there that there was a funeral of these boys and I think your evidence was to the effect that it was impossible for you to attack that funeral, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed.

MR WILLS: Now why was that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: As I have indicated that these policemen, they were just new in the area, we didn't establish that much good relationship with them.  They were from Pretoria.  If they were - it was the Webber Police only, that we would have done, we would have actually carried our mission and killed Sgangi but that was the main problem.

MR WILLS: So in short it was because of the police presence in the area that you couldn't attack the funeral?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it's like that.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS