Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: The fact that you are a resident of Diepkloof, you are entitled to attend those meetings, you don't have to do anything or maybe to write exams to qualify.

ADV BOSMAN: And then at this briefing before you went to Ledig, were you briefed as to how many firearms you would probably be able to get at the police station?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: No, but we knew that we would get more firearms, but we did not have a specific number.   He was not able to tell us how many firearms we'd be able to get from that police station, but we knew and we anticipated to get more arms, because it's a police station.

ADV BOSMAN: How big is the police station, do you have any idea?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It was not a big police station, it was a small police station.   I don't know as to whether I'll be able to make estimations about in terms of metres.

ADV BOSMAN: But perhaps in terms of how many policemen were there that night in total?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: After I received information, I learnt that there were three policemen on that particular night.   It's not an impression which I created, but we did not even know how many policemen we'd be able to find in the police station, but on that day there were three, two of them now deceased, and the other one who shot at us when we left.

ADV BOSMAN: How would you describe it, as a small, a very small, a medium size or a big police station?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I would say it's a small police station.

ADV BOSMAN: How many arms did you anticipate you would probably get, you personally?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I would try to answer that question, but my problem is that I don't know how the police work in their particular police stations in terms of guns, it will be difficult for me to try to speculate as to whether it will be one or two, but we expected to get plus-minus five firearms, we expected to get shotguns and small guns and other kinds of firearms.

ADV BOSMAN: This is what I would like to clarify, Mr Ross, is at the briefing, did you not talk about this, did you not discuss whether it would be worthwhile to go all this distance to Ledig for two or three or perhaps four firearms, did it not sort of come up in the discussion whether this would be a productive exercise?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: In terms of our knowledge, we knew that any police station would have guns.   As to whether how many guns would be there, I would be committing myself, but we expect to have many guns there, we expected to get more guns because it is a police station.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata, do you have any questions?

ADV MOTATA: Just a few explanations thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Ross, in your application you say you live at 5272 Mophutsani Street, and then you say PO Orlando East.   Where is this Mophutsani Street?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: In regard to the address which I furnished there in my application, it is because I moved and stayed with my mother in Orlando, that is why I furnished that address, because I was staying with my mother.   I expected that correspondence would go directly to my mother.

ADV MOTATA: You personally, because you, somewhere in your papers stated that Morris Phinda, you grew up with him in Diepkloof and he subsequently vanished in the middle 80's and returned early 90's, do you recall you saying so?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes sir.

ADV MOTATA: Now in Diepkloof, as I said initially, it's divided into zones, which zone were you living at in Diepkloof?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I was staying in Zone 2.

ADV MOTATA: Now, since, did Morris, for instance, visit Ledig, as you said a number of your comrades visited Ledig and that's how they knew about the brutality of the police at Ledig towards the community, was Morris one of the guys who visited Ledig?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Morris has relatives in Ledig.   He used to stay for a longer time at times in Ledig.

ADV MOTATA: Now in terms of him having returned as a trained cadre in the early 90's, would we say between, let's say for ten months when there were this active attendance of meetings, would he sometimes go to Ledig and not attend your meetings?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Even if I did not know his movements, he had a family in Ledig, he used to go to Ledig, then I would agree with you that he used to go to Ledig.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Chair, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ross, you said that when you and your companions embarked to go to Ledig to commit this robbery, that you received a firearm from Motape, as did one other person, so that the three of you were armed, Motape, yourself and one other, is that correct?   And is there any reason why you got the firearm and not one of the other members of the party?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: The way I knew Comrade Motepa, I believed that he had faith in me, that I will be responsible enough, generally he knew me as a responsible person, therefore he had faith in me that I'll be able to handle and use a gun responsibly.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you trained in the use of firearms, or were you familiar with the use of firearms at that stage?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: No, I was not trained to use firearms, but according to me, most of the people will be able to use a gun, even if they did not receive any particular training, including myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you in fact used a firearm before that occasion?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I don't remember.   I did not use a gun.

CHAIRPERSON: The attack on the Ledig Police Station, is it correct that you only succeeded in obtaining one R4 rifle?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the policemen at the police station, including the deceased, armed at all?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I will not be able to explain, especially about the policeman who died within the police station, but the one who was shot at the back office had, I believe that he did not have a gun, because if he had a gun, Comrade Kenneth could have seen it and then he could have taken it, because I was the door and they were at a distance from me, but I believe that if that policeman had a gun, it could have been taken, he could have seen that gun when he fell on the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: This Ledig Police Station, is it in a rural area or is it in an urban situation?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Ledig is a rural area, according to me, yes it's a rural area.

CHAIRPERSON: You've admitted to us that you lied when you testified in your trial when you said that, inter alia, that the reason why you ended up at Ledig was initially because you had been asked to go to Sun City and you hadn't been there before you wanted to go and gamble at Sun City, and you didn't know why there was this attack made on the Ledig Police Station, etceteras.   Now why did you lie to the trial court, what was your reason for not telling the trial court what you have told us today?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I was afraid that I would receive a heavy sentence, I was trying to protect myself, because I didn't want to be found guilty as a person who took part in that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you decide to lie to the Supreme Court?   Did you do it on, first of all, did you do it on your own, make that decision on your own to lie to the Supreme Court, or did you collaborate with your co-accuseds  at the time?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I decided the time when I was detained and again the time I was handed over to the Bophuthatswana police, I did not want to tell them the whole truth of that incident, but I just decided to tell them a lie so that I'll be able to protect myself.