Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

MR WESSELS: If you committed these acts, why did you not create a safety net or try to establish one as the Chairperson put to you, when you applied for amnesty, then everything would have been postponed up until the time when you were in a better position?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I did not consider it in such a way, and I did not do it in that way.

MR WESSELS: What is surprising is that you did not consider that option, you are a very intelligent person, you had been qualified?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Thank you for the compliment.

MR WESSELS: Why did you not think of that very basic way of action?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, I cannot give you an answer, because I do not have an answer.

MR WESSELS: No, Mr Barnard, it is because you lie about that, because you never had a chance to get amnesty, because you were never involved in the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I did not want to apply for amnesty, I knew that these Defence Force members were all friends and had already proven at that stage that they will gang up against me, that they wanted to send me, want me to get the death sentence.  I was not willing to take that chance.  I knew what they could fabricate, and I did not want to take that chance.

MR WESSELS: It was in 1992 and your arrest took place in 1997?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: The amnesty procedure was established in 1995, is that correct Mr Barnard?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, what about it?

MR WESSELS: Well, it had nothing to do with what happened at the post mortem inquest?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I am just telling you how I felt about the whole system and the way in which I could not trust them.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, is your evidence that everything that you did in 1989 from the Webster incident, up until the baboon incident and the attempted murder of Omar, and all the other incidents, are you a fully fledged member of the CCB and that you received a salary and that you were in the same position as all the other conscious members, you were a member of this organisation and you could get all the advantages of it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: As I testified, Mr Lafras Luitingh told me that everything will be dealt with, that I will receive my money a month beforehand.  He gave me one month, R12 000-00 that would be the salary for June, July and August.

MR WESSELS: That is so, but that is an administrative process that you are talking about, but in so far as your membership, you were a member of the CCB from 1989 until they disbanded?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I was a member for them for 18 months.

MR WESSELS: 18 months and there is no doubt about that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, the Attorney-General, Anton Ackerman, could prove that with the document that he presented.

MR WESSELS: It would be to your advantage then to become part of a State organisation if you were in trouble with the police?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I don't know how beneficial that was, because it doesn't seem to have helped anybody else, up to this point, regarding everything they have said regarding State support and investigations.  Everybody else would have been locked up, it didn't really worked that well.

MR WESSELS: But at that stage, when you were with the CCB in 1989, you were still under the impression that you would enjoy protection from the CCB as you were told at the very beginning when you joined?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: If problems were to arise?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: It is history which took place years later, which proved that there was no protection?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Would you grant me a moment's indulgence, please Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a short adjournment, Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, while you were in Section 29 detention in 1989, in December 1989, you made two statements?  Mr Chairman, the one statement appears on page 82 of Bundle B.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, with the greatest respect, the line of cross-examination has been directed, it has been put to this witness that "the reason why you did not apply for amnesty was because you could not say that you were a member of the SADF or the CCB or any other State organisation", that is contradicted by page 205 of the witness' application, Mr Chairman, in Bundle A, in which he says "an office bearer or employer of the State or any former State, state the department or division - SADF (Special Forces), CCB and DKI", so that I submit that to put to this witness that he did not apply for amnesty because he did not consider himself as any, as a member of any organisation, is contradicted by the facts before you and may I draw attention to the fact that the Attorney that probably helped him in relation to this, also acted for the other gentleman that applied for amnesty.
	With respect, the cross-examination is based upon patently incorrect information.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may I ask Mr Bizos not to interrupt me in my cross-examination?  He is not acting for the witness, he doesn't seem to understand my cross-examination, because what he is saying now, I am cross-examining on, is totally incorrect.  Perhaps he should just listen to what I am saying and then he would better understand what is going on.

GEORGE BIZOS: I have indicated how I understood it.  Perhaps my learned friend would be good enough to indicate which portion of his cross-examination I misunderstood, but we can leave the matter there for ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels, you can continue with your questioning.  You have referred us now to page 205, thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: A, 205.

CHAIRPERSON: I have that, and then the other reference was B82, is that correct?  This is the reference of the statement?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, on page 85 you state the following in your statement
"... during April 1989, two incidents occurred with me which I believe led to my discharge from the organisation.  Firstly the incident when Louis gave me an instruction, Louis is Lafras Luitingh, to collect information regarding Brig Basie Smit and secondly the incident at Sandton Security Branch when I and McQuillan were interrogated.  When Louis spoke to me shortly afterwards, he told me that I was discharged, unless I was prepared to go and work permanently abroad.  This was already in April 1989.  I then refused and requested an interview with Jack van Staden, the Head.  Louis said that the aforementioned instruction came from Jack and that Jack could not or would not speak to me.  Thus in reality, I was already officially discharged from the organisation in April 1989, after the incidents of Brig Basie Smit and the incident with Sandton Security Branch."
	Did you make that statement?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I did.

MR WESSELS: Is it the truth?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, it is not the truth, Chairperson.  This is specifically the tactic of distancing that I made use of, while I was in Section 29 detention, and I realised that I would have to distance myself from the CCB.  I did this while under detention in terms of Section 29, I fabricated the story.
	The section regarding Gen Basie Smit was not true, I was never tasked to work on him.  I tried to create a possibly credible scenario from particulars that they had given me and questions that they had asked me, and aspects that I fabricated myself.  I wanted to remove myself from the context of the organisation for obvious reasons, due to the incident of 1 May, I wanted to indicate that I was no longer part of the CCB, before the murder of Dr Webster, because I realised that I was still a member of the CCB at that stage, which would have created an ever greater suggestion that I did the job, which wasn't true.

MR WESSELS: But you knew that you could end up in very serious trouble regarding the Webster incident?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: At that stage you believed that the organisation could protect you?