Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR BASSON: Yes, I will.  Mr Chairman, Mr Vally should listen to what I am saying.  I did not say there were no cholera epidemics in Africa, I said in those areas where the South African Defence Force and the Security Forces had a specific interest, there were and there are no cholera outbreaks.
 What I have told him, and he is not listening, is that every one of those epidemics were recorded and in each of them, the origin of the cholera was identified.  Three months ago for example, the Department of Health - they have a Epidemiological Report which they bring out every three months, it is very clear that there are no cases in South Africa, no cases in Angola.
 In Namibia for example, there were mission hospitals where the staff were antagonistic against the government.  The troops could not get near to those hospitals.  Those nuns and nurses, they recorded those diseases if there were any cases.
 So, during those years, they recorded rabies for example.  Mr Vally has his facts wrong, and he must get his Investigative Team to ascertain these facts.
 Number two, it would not have been in the ability of the South African government to cause the outbreak of cholera or to hide the outbreak of cholera in any of the regions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: I will draw Dr Wouter Basson's attention to the affidavit of Dr Immelman.  I want to draw your attention to paragraph 15 of Dr Immelman's affidavit.
 He says specifically, paragraph 15 and I loosely translate, at a stage I was worried about the lawfulness of our actions.  Dr Basson assured me that the projects were approved by the State Security Council.
 He let me understand that I would not be involved if the toxins were inappropriately used, I assume?  I will leave out the next sentence because it is not relevant.  He goes on, he told us on a number of occasions that it is not the weapons dealer who is responsible if a person who buys a revolver, acts irresponsibly with the revolver.
 Dr Immelman's affidavit as a whole clearly indicates that you, personally, instructed him to manufacture a number of these substances set out in TRC52.  How do you respond to that?

MR BASSON: I deny without any doubt, that I gave Dr Immelman the instruction to manufacture any substances or to prepare them with the purpose to cause severe bodily harm or death in any individual, organisation or place.
 I would like to tell you with regards to Dr Immelman's statement, that I ever mentioned the State Security Council, it is not true. 
 With regards to the discussion that we had about the inappropriate use of this, the fact was there were poisons available at Roodeplaat like you will find at any laboratory at any university, because these are used chemicals and they are available in laboratories.
 If they are used in a wrong sense, that meaning to make someone else ill or to hurt someone else to achieve another goal than the chemical reaction, then I put it very clearly to him, that no one can be held responsible if it is used in the wrong manner.  If somebody broke in there and stole those things and did something with it, he cannot be taken as responsible for that, as long as he adhered to the safety measures, security measures.

MR VALLY: How do you explain that the person who in fact prepared the cultures of cholera, in fact went so far as preparing 26 bottles of the cholera culture of 10 ml each and this is Mr Odendal or Dr Odendal and when he was asked the question
"Were you aware that you were producing a substance which could potentially cause a serious epidemic?"
he answered -
"When I got the request to produce this organisms ..."
...I am sorry, I am reading exactly as it is written, so the grammar may not always be right - 
"...you must remember that the idea stuck in my mind, that in the first case it was to be used for testing purpose and in the second one, you know, there were hints that this could be used in the war situation in Angola and it never crossed my mind for one moment, that it could be used internally in our own country, because to use organisms or to spread organisms in your own country, is a very risky thing and it doesn't go along with the Convention of Biological Warfare that you do not produce these things to use on your own territory."

MR BASSON: Chairperson, I do not understand this question.  That is what I am saying.  I understand Dr Odendal's statement completely and his answer is correct.
 It is possible that you can cause epidemics with these things, in very rare circumstances.  I would like to tell you to create an epidemic by using something like cholera, is almost impossible.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, except that what that seems to suggest, what he has been reading, he says he has been reading the evidence of somebody who has testified.

MR BASSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What it seems to suggest was that cultures were produced.

MR BASSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But he says he doesn't think that they could have been intended to be used internally?

MR BASSON: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And yes ...

MR BASSON: I agree fully with Dr Odendal's statement, I think it is a sensible statement.  I think later on he was by means of Mr Vally's questions, he was led to say that he thought that, he thought whatever he did - I don't know what is going on in Dr Odendal's head - the fact of the matter remains, these cultures were not used to do anyone or any organisation harm.  There is no evidence of that, there is no record of that and there weren't any other plans either.
 Me and Gen Knobel went to great effort with the Independence of Namibia to go and speak to the Swiss Surgeon General in Windhoek, where he was responsible for the medical support for the Untag Forces who were working there, and we took the responsibility on us to keep them up-to-date of the threats of the people coming back, I would say refugees or people banned from the country, who went to live in other countries.
 We advised them about what type of programmes with regard to medical treatment and the prevention of illnesses, they should take in Namibia to ensure that no strange epidemics happen or take place.  Some of that information there we gained from doing research at Roodeplaat and other investigations we led, gave us this information.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, I have a document issued by the Department of National Health and Population Development, entitled Epidemiological Comments, are you aware of this document?  You are?

MR BASSON: Yes, I am.

MR VALLY: Talking about cholera in South Africa, November 1990.

MR CILLIERS: Chairperson, can I just learn from Mr Vally, is this document in one of the Bundles, because I don't think I have ever seen it?

MR VALLY: I am afraid that this wasn't, we will immediately make it available to my learned friend.   I need to pose the question, we don't have questions of it and I will pass it on to him, right now.

MR CILLIERS: I think the answer of my client is that he did not see this specific document, it sounds like it is the same document which is distributed every few weeks, so he knows the type of document, but not that exact document.
 I don't want to be obstructive, but it is not fair that my client is being questioned with regards to a document, concerning all the problems that we have had, and he has never seen this document.  It is not fair to ask him about that.
 Even if he only brings the document so we can look at it for 30 seconds, then maybe we can help him out if he wants to ask questions about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally please.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairman, I have no problem.  Do you just want to see the specific points I am making reference to or the document as such?

MR CILLIERS: I think he should give us the whole document, but he must also point out to us to what he is going to refer to.