Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I had various weapons which I had collected over a period of time, some of them I received from Vlakplaas members, others I obtained in the criminal world.  At one point I had three trunks full of weapons, which I stored in different places.  These were weapons which I obtained myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a double barrel shotgun?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, it was a double barrel shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: With 12 bore type thing?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, 12 bore, double barrel shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: How long before the incident did you involve Calla Botha?

FERDINAND BARNARD: A few days.  A few days before the incident, I cannot recall the precise date, but we went three or four times and then it happened that we found Dr Webster and I shot him.

MR WESSELS: Did you tell him from the very beginning "listen, we are going to shoot Dr Webster if the opportunity presented itself"?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, when I went to see him at his house, I immediately informed him of that.

MR WESSELS: What did you tell him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I told him that it was a project which Joe and them had initiated, that I had received the instruction from Joe Verster and Lafras Luitingh.  He put certain questions to me, that was Calla Botha.  I told him that the presentation was conducted in Ponti.

MR WESSELS: What did he ask you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: He asked me who was involved, who was there, what the instruction was, the information that I have just given you.  In the general I informed him of the circumstances and I also told him what the reason would be for Dr Webster's murder.

MR WESSELS: Did he ask you whether or not you had authorisation to involve him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I don't think that he was under any mis-impression regarding this.  He declared himself willing to go and to assist me.  I don't think that he held any illusions that he would be unlawfully involved, in terms of the organisation.  He knew it was illegal and so did I in terms of regulations.

MR WESSELS: What do you mean, in terms of the rules and regulations of the organisation, but nonetheless he was prepared to break the organisational rules and to become involved in this project of yours?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Well, it must be common knowledge that it was the case.

MR WESSELS: I see.  You also didn't tell Lafras Luitingh or Verster that you were going to be using him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I did not.

MR WESSELS: Why not?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I don't know, I did not inform them.  I thought to myself that it would be more advisable if I took someone with me, and as I testified, I trusted Calla Botha, I knew that he could function well under pressure, we had spent a lot of time together where we had depended on each other for our lives.  Not necessarily in this milieu.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I keep intervening.  Sorry Mr Wessels, when you were at the meeting with Luitingh and Verster and it was approved that a shotgun would be used, etc, was it contemplated that it would be a drive-by shooting?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I did not put it that specifically, but I thought that as an opportunity target, the possibility could arise that it would be a drive-by shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: One would imagine that if there was that possibility, that it would be a drive-by shooting that two people would be used?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Two people, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It would be difficult to drive and ...

FERDINAND BARNARD: Although we did not go into those details.  The last I heard was that it might be necessary for me to penetrate the house, but in my own mind I thought that a drive-by shooting, and I also conveyed it as such at a certain stage.  But nobody asked me if I was going to use anybody else, no one told me that I wasn't allowed to.
	But for me it was the understanding that I should state if I required another person in my presentation, and I didn't do that.

MR LAX: Sorry, could I just, did anyone tell you you could use another person?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, nobody said that.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, when you discussed the plan or the murder, weren't the different possibilities discussed?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The possibilities were limited due to the layout of the place and the lack of specialist information regarding Dr Webster's movements.   The possibilities were limited to the extent that I did not see my way open to attack David Webster at Wits and I also didn't bother to conduct thorough reconnaissance of that place.  His residence, despite the problems with the layout and observation, suited me like a glove when I realised later on that it was a one way street with a T-junction.  There were no other possibilities which were discussed.
	I proposed this possibility and it was accepted.

MR WESSELS: Which possibility, the  possibility of the drive-by shooting?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, the possibility that he could be murdered while entering or exiting his house.  He didn't have to be in his vehicle.

MR WESSELS: But did Mr Verster or Mr Luitingh not express any interest in further details, didn't they ask you how you thought you could do it and what your escape route would be, and that sort of detail?  Wasn't that discussed?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot recall that such details were discussed.  I was told that if I did the job, I should be able to get away, by nature of the situation.  I didn't tell them "left in this street, right in that street" and so forth.  I didn't conduct that kind of planning, because one can turn left into the street and there can be a five ton truck in front of you.
	I didn't discuss anything like that.

MR WESSELS: You see, if you were to be apprehended, let's say your escape route didn't function efficiently, and you were apprehended, the entire organisation would be jeopardised.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Why?

MR WESSELS: Because you would be arrested and then there would be the risk that you could expose them?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, but that was not necessarily the case.

MR WESSELS: But it was highly probable?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was possible, I would concede that it was possible.

MR WESSELS: Naturally.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Well, here I was arrested for three years already and not one of them has seen the inside of a jail.

MR WESSELS: That is the problem.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is your problem, not mine because I am finished with them.

MR WESSELS: In the great lapse of time between your version of yesterday and your version of today and the date upon which it occurred, let us not deviate from the course, you say that they were not interested in further particulars regarding how you thought you would conduct the elimination and what your escape route would be?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The people agreed with my proposal and gave me the go-ahead.

MR WESSELS: What was the proposal?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That I foresaw that Dr Webster would be killed outside his house while leaving or entering his house.

MR WESSELS: And how would you kill him?  Would you shoot him from a helicopter?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, from a vehicle.  I would have gone with a vehicle and climbed out of the vehicle and shot him, either one of the two.

MR WESSELS: So there was mention of a vehicle?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And the drive-by shooting was the accepted plan?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, among others, but the drive-by for me wasn't necessarily shooting from a moving vehicle, one can stop and shoot the person as happened with the Chris Hani murder.
	Januz Walus stopped, climbed out of the vehicle, went to the driveway, shot him, went back and drove off.

MR WESSELS: And he was arrested within two hours?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, because he was driving with a red vehicle and he had the firearm in the car.