Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: But the JOC was part of a national structure, where various establishments met, there were local structures, regional structures and so on, where various formations of the establishment of the security establishment met and exchanged information.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you giving evidence now?

ADV MEMANI: I am putting a theory to a witness and I am entitled to that.

CHAIRPERSON: You are putting it as a fact.

ADV MEMANI: That's the point of cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, is that a fact? We have heard no evidence that I can recollect, about this national structure of JOC.  We have heard evidence about a JOC office at Mamelodi.

ADV MEMANI: On a previous occasion, Mr Chairman, I put it, for instance, to a previous witness, that when you do a clearance, you employ policemen, you do a clearance, whether he is going to join the security force or the ordinary force. There was no evidence of that. I was entitled to put that as a fact and he conceded. Of course, the limitation here, there are limitations to this type of thing, but it is not wrong to put a question ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I want to know if it is a fact. Was it a national organisation?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  And if you require evidence, Mr Chairman, we will endeavour to get that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.

ADV MEMANI: Now the JOC was the result of a national structure where (indistinct).

CAPT BOKABA: I do not know, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And you therefore do not dispute what I am saying, that it was a national structure where various formations of the security establishment met to discuss matters of security.

CAPT BOKABA: Let me say, all different divisions of the police, murder and robbery squad, vehicle theft, liquor squad, I am asking you what is it that you want to tell you? Were there such divisions at GOS?

ADV MEMANI: Look here, you are not going to play an ignorant person and think you are going to get away with it. You are the policeman, you were in the security branch and you should know, you should be able to say that there was no such structure and if there was, you should be able to tell us who was present in that structure.

CHAIRPERSON: He just said he did not know of such a structure.

ADV MEMANI: And then I do not ...

CHAIRPERSON: Then he cannot say any more about it, he doesn't know about it.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Now Mr Bokaba, the JOC that you participated in, you have already conceded that it was - it dealt with security matters.

CHAIRPERSON: He has explained that these were in patrolling the townships.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases. And that ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Memani. I think let's try to get to this.  Look, Captain, we know that the soldiers and other people were put in Mamelodi because there was a lot of political unrest and political violence.

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: We know that those soldiers did not go there to investigate motorcar theft, rapes, murder and housebreakings. They were there because of political unrest. Isn't that so?

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That is the kind of unrest they were there to try and contain.

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now the question, in essence, which is being put to you by Mr Memani, he is saying that it is difficult to understand how there could be other sections, such as the Defence Force and other people of GOS who had gone there to contain political violence, without representation or participation by the security branch in GOS.

CAPT BOKABA: The security branch police - let me explain this way - were not actually in one institution.  Our offices were at COMPOL Building.  We were assigned a task of working in Mamelodi.  We were the ones gathering information and as I have explained, if the information that we had was quite urgent, that there was a protest march to be held, we would take this information to GOS, and if I were to go to Capt Loots, time would be wasted, and I would give them this information and let them respond to it immediately.  That is how I met these people at GOS.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  And during that period, the Army was used to assist the police in patrolling the townships.

CAPT BOKABA: That is the case.

ADV MEMANI: And the reaction unit or the riot squad was used to physically disperse meetings and marches?

CAPT BOKABA: I do not understand whether how you say they dispersed these marches and meetings? You say Unit 19 existed? Maybe you can ask me this.  If you say Unit 19 existed, I would say Unit 19 was part of the police as people who dealt with the riots.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Bokaba, I am saying that the rioting was used in the main to break meetings and protest marches. They were the guys who used to come in with the hard, with crash helmets and sjamboks.

CAPT BOKABA: I didn't work with Unit 19. Now if you ask me about this persons, meetings and sjambokking protesters, I was not part of Unit 19, I wouldn't know.

ADV MEMANI: But it was public knowledge and you are a policeman who had an interest in political activity and the suppression thereof, including protest marches and meetings.

CAPT BOKABA: Mr Memani, with respect, do not force down my throat what I do not know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, we have Captain - I don't know what the importance of this question is, but are you saying that as a person who worked in Mamelodi for some time, where a lot of protest marches took place, meetings were dispersed and the like. Are you saying that you don't know, as a matter of general knowledge, that the police would use sjamboks to disperse people? Are you saying that?

CAPT BOKABA: That is not what I am saying.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Then tell us what you mean.

CAPT BOKABA: Okay Chairperson, I have a difficulty with Mr Memani, when he states that I have knowledge that they were used to disperse.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But Captain Bokaba, people were in fact killed during those marches, whether rightly or wrongly.

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, I agree with you, Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: I am indebted to the member.  And the security branch did the gathering of information and the monitoring of activists?

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct, we gathered information.

ADV MEMANI: They were therefore an essential component of this joint operation?

CAPT BOKABA: What joint operation?  Security branch and the Unit 19?

ADV MEMANI: The joint operation that was conducted at the joint operation centre.

CAPT BOKABA: That is not the case.

ADV MEMANI: You see your denial of this thing borders on the absurd.

CAPT BOKABA: That is how I could answer you, I don't know how you understand that.

ADV MEMANI: And you are attempting to minimise the involvement of the security branch in the joint operation centre, because you know that you, Selahla and Ngo represented the security branch at the joint operation centre.

CAPT BOKABA: I do not know how many times must I repeat it to you. I never worked with Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know any policeman who worked at the security branch who attended meetings of the joint operation centre, regularly at Mamelodi?

CAPT BOKABA: I do not know such policemen.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know any policemen who came from the security branch who attended the meetings of the security branch representing Mamelodi, of the JOC, representing Mamelodi.

CAPT BOKABA: I do not know such policemen.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, Captain, Col Loots told us that he said we met with GOS every day and sometimes Bokaba, junior as he was, he would go there and pass information to them.  And you, for your part, you say you are not aware whether Col Loots ever met with GOS?

CAPT BOKABA: Personally I have never seen him at the GOS office.