Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR PHOSA: Insofar as you referred to no go areas, there isn't an area that the security police did not reach with the aid of the other police in the townships in Port Elizabeth surely?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not if they were accompanied by the heavy vehicles like Casspirs and so on that we were making use of in that time, not in all cases but in certain areas that was the situation.

MR PHOSA: I'd meant to say this to Mr Erasmus but I forgot about it but it's still appropriate now, the impression I really get with regard to your problem - part of your problem in the Eastern Cape, was that there was an inadequate number of policemen.  Your problem was that there were just not many of you to do what you'd normally have done, was that your problem?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Within those given circumstances and times yes, you could not have enough people on the ground because of the unrest.

MR PHOSA: But then you see when you mentioned: "All options", I did not find any mention in both his evidence - Mr Erasmus's and yours, of the fact that an attempt was made, a plea to say to head office or the politicos - politicians: "We must, must have an increase in the number of personnel", which would be one of the solutions, isn't it?  I don't hear you say that.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, surely it have helped, it would have helped in the unrest situation to perhaps have more visibility on the ground so more police would have helped especially to act against the burning of vehicles, the burning of deliver vehicles, damaging of schools yes, more people would have helped -  we could not stop everywhere.

ADV DE JAGER: So it seems that is the problem throughout the police because we have the same problem today apparently.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is so.

MR PHOSA: I've lost that so I did not get the Advocate's statement.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I repeat it?

MR PHOSA: No, I didn't get his full answer, I listened to the English portion - I really lost that portion.
	If you can remember the answer can you just give us?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I said there was not enough police and vehicles to cover the entire area, to cover for instance arsoning of schools, the burning of delivery vehicles.  I can remember for instance a period where a delivery vehicle could not enter New Brighton without police presence, those delivery vehicles then had to wait until the police would come and fetch them and accompany them.  Yes, there were not enough police in that time under those circumstances to get the place to normal conditions.

MR PHOSA: Thank you, I didn't hear your question as well so I'm sorry.

ADV DE JAGER: I said it seems to be still the problem today that we haven't got enough vehicles and manpower to cope with all the problems we're facing.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I did say yes, you are correct.

MR PHOSA: Just to give an idea why I'm putting the questions, perhaps you'll understand and not - I'm addressing others as well through you.  You see I'm trying to follow your reasoning, I'm trying to see if there wasn't a way of avoiding this terrible action of destroying young people, that is why I'm putting these - following these explanations that you give as to why you did it.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I understand that.

MR PHOSA: Now, for instance with regard to other methods, there was a way of - a practice also of asking people to report daily at the police station at given hours, that also could be done - it was done sometimes.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I take it for granted.  You are asking me something that I can really not remember but I would agree it's possible.  I am not sure to which law or Act would has been referred to and how that could have been managed, I'm not sure.

MR PHOSA: Now detention without trial - I may have got your evidence inaccurately, you seemed to be saying because of the allegation that Mr Mthimkhulu had been poisoned, he had acquired the status of a martyr.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I did say that.

MR PHOSA: So that if you detained him with that kind of allegation existing against the security police already, that would have been a further ground for greater violent action or activity in the area.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is what we expected should happen.

MR PHOSA: Are you suggesting to the Court - to the Chairperson and to the others that you as security police would actually refrain from detaining anybody you felt like detaining because of the attitude of the people where he belongs?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I'm not saying that.

MR PHOSA: If the reaction of the community to his further detention was a factor at all, then how was it a factor?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think I said it might have been one factor since such a person who's been detained for a period of  I think five months is now being detained again, he was detained for a period now he comes out, he's ill, he's  been hospitalised, he's out on the street and now we again detain him.  In our reasoning that would have been - and I'm looking for words now, it would have been contra-productive.
	People would have been mobilised if we had done that again, if we had detained the person again.  It would have actually suited his strategy if we'd done that.  It would have had the required effect that that person probably would have wanted, it would have resulted in more boycott actions, more stay-away actions, more actions in schools etc.

MR PHOSA: All I was finding out was whether the jest of your answer is this: "We the security police will actually refrain from detaining a person who should be detained because we fear what repercussion it may have in the community", in other words decide not to detain him just to make sure that we don't annoy the community.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not only that, I'm not referring to annoying the community, I'm saying what reaction would have been the result in the community at large, the pressure that again would have arisen especially on the police and once again pressure on us.
	These were all the things that one should have considered before making decisions and also you should remember that you have detained a person, let the person go and now you come again and you come and detain the person once more, then you should decide are you solving the problem or are you instigating the problem.

MR PHOSA: But just to pick up on the latter portion of your reply - surely you yourself are aware of numerous instances where some people were in and out of detention as though it was a shop - they were just taken in, out again, back again - it was being done.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it was done in some cases.

MR PHOSA: Now, I understand that the underlying understanding or impression amongst the security police including yourself - including you, was that both Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka were actually ANC people - members.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR PHOSA: That they were in touch with the ANC outside, which was then outside the country?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Consequently the ANC surely would know whether they were here in the country or with it, wouldn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is possible.

MR PHOSA: No, no please, let's think about it.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I'm not arguing against this, I cannot state with accuracy whether they would have known but I accept yes, that it is possible.

MR PHOSA: Perhaps you've forgotten why I'm raising the question, I'll commit the cardinal sin of telling in advance.  You see you were saying you were going to pretend - I mean to create the impression that they had driven up to the border and had skipped the country.