Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-10

CHAIRPERSON: This morning we were to hear an application in connection with the death of Mr Dion Cele.  According to the documents placed before us there were seven applicants and one of whom has since passed away.  Counsel for four of the applicants, is it Mr Visser?  Are you appearing for four applicants?  Five.  For five of the applicants ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, Chairperson, Cele is three applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel for three of the applicants and the Leader of Evidence of the TRC and Mr Christo Nel, who appears for the other applicants, came to see us in chambers.  We are informed that the dependants and the family of the deceased would like a little more time.  They have not had legal representation, but they'll only be consulting with their legal representative during the course of the day and that it may not be proper for us to proceed.
	Mr Visser also indicated that he would like to prepare a document to be handed in and if he is allowed time to do so, in the long run we may save some time and we might finish these proceedings more quickly if he's allowed to prepare that document and hand it in.
	Mr Nel appears and is ready to proceed in respect of one of his clients, but indicated that he would be quite pleased if he is allowed time to prepare adequately and consult with his other client.  Before walking in here I was handed a fax which is addressed to me from a firm of attorneys, Strydom Britz, on behalf of one of the applicants, Mr Frans Hendrik Labuschagne.  It appears from this document that he is at present having some difficulties with receiving adequate instructions from the South African Police Services, and that because of that he is not available to represent his client, Mr Labuschagne, at today's hearing and he asks that the application should be postponed until his problems are sorted out.
	Requests for postponements causes a great deal of inconvenience to all those who are ready and available to proceed, apart from the fact that financial considerations are also involved in that the resources of the TRC are not unlimited and we are mindful of this situation and where possible we would like to begin with and finish these applications as soon as we can.
	However, in the light of the representations that have been made to me and to my fellow Members of my Committee, we have agreed that we will not proceed with these applications today and that we will make a beginning at half past nine tomorrow morning.  
	Now I do not know whether the victims, the dependants can follow what I have said, but I trust that our Leader of Evidence will take the necessary steps to convey this to them and also to ensure that whatever consultations they are requiring with their counsel takes place today and is not delayed and held tomorrow morning, because we are going to make a beginning at half past nine tomorrow and if they haven't had enough time to consult with their clients, they will have to do that during the course of the day, but we are definitely going to make a beginning.
	Insofar as the letter which I have received from Strydom Britz, we will communicate with him and if his client is not available we can't hold up these proceedings until his client becomes available and we are going to proceed with the remainder of the applicants, who are entitled to have their matter heard and disposed of as expeditiously as possible.  
	Accordingly, I have decided that we are now going to adjourn these proceedings and we'll begin at half past nine tomorrow morning.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.

MR VISSER: May it please you, Mr Chairman.  Perhaps I might ask an indulgence to take up a little bit more of your time today, which will then be saved in dealing with certain matters tomorrow.  They're mostly housekeeping matters which may appropriately be dealt with now, unless you want to adjourn immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, please proceed.  If we can sort out problems at this stage we'd like to do that.

MR VISSER: Yes, we thought so, Mr Chairperson, with respect.  	Chairperson, we appear in the matters which have now - which are going to be heard by you for eight applicants in the various matters.  We will place ourselves on record later - perhaps I should do it now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about tomorrow's matter?

MR VISSER: No, I'm talking about all the matters, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.

MR VISSER: Because I'm going to deal with some issues which are going to effect all the matters before you.  Would you need some paper to write on, Chairperson. I've got a writing pad here which you're welcome to borrow, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just a piece of paper will do for the time being, thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the matter starts with some applications which were heard by your brother, Wilson, Mr Malan and Ms Sandi Sigodi some time ago.  I believe it was November last year.  At that hearing, on the request of Judge Wilson, we led one witness, Col Botha, to deal with the various
aspects of the violence in Natal.  That evidence, Chairperson, was transcribed and it now resides in a record in the hearing of the death of Portia Ndwandwe, N-D-W-A-N-D-W-E, MK name Zandile, from page 516, Chairperson, to page 819.  Some 303 pages.  The idea at the time, Mr Chairman, was that that very same Committee would be hearing all the incidents which took place in Natal.  Now for obvious reasons that has not happened, but we only heard about that last Thursday.  
	Now we refer you to the record, Chairperson, not to intimidate you, but to mention to you that it would not be a fruitful exercise in our respectful submission to just place this before you and require you to read it.  There may be questions which may arise in your minds, which did not arise in the minds of the other Committee Members and by far and away, the more appropriate way of dealing with it is to make a brief summary for you, which we intend to do today and which you've already referred to.
	But Chairperson, as far as the housekeeping matters are concerned which I referred to, may I refer you to a meeting which was held on the 5th of February in Pretoria, chaired by Justice Wilson where Mr Malan was also present, where ways and means were discussed of how to possibly accelerate the amnesty process.  
	Having undertaken to do what we can in that regard we went away, Chairperson, and we drew a document.  Now it is not too far in the distant past for you to remember what the original amnesty applications which we brought before you looked like.  I mean it was piles and piles and piles of a welter of documents.  We went and drafted a summary, Chairperson.  The summary was intended to cover most instances of amnesty applications which would come before any of the Amnesty Committees.  We forwarded last week to the TRC, a copy for your benefit of this particular document.  We called the document "General Background to Amnesty Applications".  This is with apologies to Commissioner Lax who has come across this exercise once before, but he will allow me to just fill you in. 
	Chairperson, we are told that that document has been reproduced by the TRC and was supposed to have been forwarded to you.  We are also informed that it is not before you.  What we can do in the meantime, with your leave, is to hand to you copies which we have made so that at least it is before you in the meantime so that the day might be fruitfully occupied by having a brief glance at that, but I do intend to take you very briefly through that document just to speak to the document and give you a feeling of what we're about.  May we hand that up to you, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.