Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

DR RANDERA: Lucas, good morning.  I again extend a warm welcome to your father, I assumed he is your father.

LUCAS MOTHIBI: No, he is my uncle.

DR RANDERA: Good morning to you sir, we met yesterday already.
 Lucas again we are back in Huhudi and the Youth League.  You were a member of the Youth League and something happened to you on the 16th of December 1985 and you are about to tell us about that.
 Ms Joyce Seroke will be helping you, but before she does will you please stand and take the oath.

LUCAS MOTHIBI: (sworn states)

MS SEROKE: Lucas, I greet you and your uncle.  Can you please explain to us what happened on the 16th of December 1985.   In the statement I see the date is written 16th December 1986.  Please rectify that mistake.  We want to know which year it was.

LUCAS MOTHIBI: On the 16th of December 1985, it was a Sunday. It was at night when we were still asleep and I heard people knocking.   They knocked at all doors.  Before I could even answer the doors were kicked and I realised it was the police.
 They came in and I was preparing myself to get up.  They asked me who I was. I said to them I was Mareko.  
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That was a funny name that people used to call me by. They used to say I was not Marex, I am Mareko.
 They ordered me to dress and when I went outside they kicked me.  They assaulted me, they even used the butts of the guns to hit me.  I didn't understand what was happening, because I was not even told the reason for the assault and they asked me whether I knew Beebop.   I said to them, no I do not know who Beebop was, but they continually assaulted me, they kicked me. I fell on the ground and they used their butts to hit me.
 They took me into their Landrover and they took turns in the township. They went straight to Beebop's house.  They knocked at the door.  Beebop was not there.  
 We drove off and came to Vryburg Police Station and they locked me up.  
 The next day, it was a Monday, on the 17th they fetched me from the cell, it was about 9 o'clock,  They interrogated me.  They asked me whether I know who Zero was and I said to them, yes I know him.  And they say if you knew him then you know what happened. I told them no, I don't know what happened.
 Then they said to me, you must know.  And then they started assaulting me again.  They assaulted me until my head got swollen.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give him a glass of water please.

MS SEROKE: Are you in a position to continue?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: They continually assaulted me, asking me about the girl who was burnt to death, Galebale. It was the first time I heard that a girl was burnt to death and that the girl was Galebale.   They forced me to agree that I was present when the girl was burnt.  I refused to agree MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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to what they were saying.  And they continually assaulted me, using their gun butts.
 We spent that day, and they continually assaulted me.
 At about one o'clock they locked me up again.
 The next day, it was the second day, they fetched me again and they asked me the same story.  They said I should agree that I was present when the girl was burnt to death.  And I told them, gentlemen I was not present when the girl was burnt.  I know nothing.
 And I know the police would hit at that.  It was Brand, Strydom, Bangula and the other one was Spanepoetie.  It was three white policeman and a black man.
 The third day the same thing happened. Thee assault me and the false confessions they wanted me to make.   They left me and they came with their statement. There was a policeman that I referred to as Bangula, he was heavily built.  He came with a written statement and he ordered me to sign but I refused.
 On refusing to sign that, they assaulted me again.  
 I ended up signing the statement and  I agreed that I was there when the girl was burnt.  And in actual fact I was not there.  They were threatening me that if I did not agree to what they were saying, that I was present when the girl was burnt, they would fasten me at the back of the Landrover and pulled (sleep) me until I die.
 They say I should talk about Zero and Shine and Fakajek.  I should also state that they were involved in the burning of this girl.   They said I should speak that those three men burnt this girl to death.  And I didn't know anything about that.  They wanted me to be their witness, they wanted me to agree that yes, it was 
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Zero and Shiny and them who burnt this girl.  They wanted me to be their witness in that case.
 I stayed in the cells.  We were doing practically nothing, we only sat in the cells.  Even if we went to court there would be nothing taking place.   Every time we would be taken back and told that there was no bail at all because we would run away - until in 1986 on the 9th of May, if I remember well.
 I will end there.

MS SEROKE: Lucas, you said you were a member of the Huhudi Youth League.  How old were you when they picked you up in 1985.

LUCAS MOTHIBI: I was 17 years old.

MS SEROKE: What were you doing then?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: I was doing temporary jobs.  There was a gentleman who I used to work with, called Matusi Salumi and then we were the plumbers.

MS SEROKE: You speak of Beebop in your presentation.  Is it the same Beebop that the previous speaker talked about?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: Yes, that is the same Beebop.   I last saw him when I was released on the 9th of May.  He was in prison.

MS SEROKE: Were you arrested together with him?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: Yes, he was there.  He was also involved in this case.

MS SEROKE: You spoke of Galebane, who was burnt.  Is it the same Frida Mabelane, we listened to her story?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: Yes, that is the same person.

MS SEROKE: When you went to the Magistrate's court did you have a lawyer?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: There was a lawyer called Vincent Saldanha
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who came.

MS SEROKE: Was he representing you?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: Yes, he was representing us in this case.

MS SEROKE: You told about the way they assaulted you, the way they kicked you.

LUCAS MOTHIBI: I sustained numerous injuries to an extent that my head was very swollen. If you could see me you would feel sorry for me.   I got injured in such a way that on this hole on my forehead.  I don't know what happened to this hole on my forehead.  After such assaults I remained with this feeling on my forehead.

MS SEROKE: Did they sent you to a doctor or did they called him to you?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: No, they never did that.

MS SEROKE: Do you still consult a doctor until now?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: No, I am not consulting a doctor.

MS SEROKE: Who are you staying with at the present moment?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: I am staying with my uncle.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Just a quick question, Lucas. Two quick questions.   One is after - I know the statement seemed to have been taken under torture - after you had admitted to the killing of this young woman and the case was then dropped.  Why was it dropped?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: There were about 13 of us involved in this case and they removed those other guys and we were only four in this case.  Beebop remained behind when we released from this case.  And they didn't tell us why they were releasing us.  They only told us that we can go home.

DR RANDERA: My last question.   And you say you did know MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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Beebop at the time in jail.  Do you know what happened to him afterwards?  How was he shot?

LUCAS MOTHIBI: I won't explain how he was shot, because I last saw him when we were released at prison.  Thereafter I heard that he had been shot.

MR MALAN: Was Beebop not shot in Huhudi?    You know where he was shot?