Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MR AARON MOKGATLE: The Truth Commission or Reconciliation Commission, my feelings stem from the witnesses that I have already come here.  My feelings towards them are as follows:  This is a Truth Commission.  Even in the churches the reverends always say speak the truth, so that God can forgive you. Therefore I come to realise that you cannot repeat this thing time and again.  Really, what these people have done is very terrible, but the truth that I have told this Commission or this Committee, stems from political connotations.  I should think they haven't released by that the truth they told this Committee and I have forgiven them, while they were explaining to me why they did what they did.  If what they committed is a sin, it is their own sin, but
PHOKENG HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
117	MR AARON MOKGATLE
according to me, I have forgiven those people, regarding the truth that they have told the Committee.  Because also me as
a person, when I pray usually, I say God, please forgive me my sins, like I forgive those who sin against me.  (Applause).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You may continue.

MR AARON MOKGATLE: To continue I will say I realise that the evidence put here has been listened to.   What I mean is that I have heard enough, I don't want to hear more than what I have heard.  Although some people didn't tell the - they didn't tell the story the way we heard it, but all they said they finished the story to my understanding.  We have forgiven them as a family.  But I am speaking only on my behalf.
	I want to put it this way and say, there are people who killed Mr Glad, because we are not to use such happenings here in Phokeng.  It is not on many occasions that if a person has killed someone and that person comes from jail, the person can come and brag to you and say I have been released.  If people say that they have killed someone and confess to you that they did it, you have to forgive that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...that you have a request to make to this Committee.  Do you still want to make that request?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: No, I don't want to go any further.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that concludes the witness' evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Currin, are there any questions you wish to ask this witness?

MR CURRIN: I have no questions to the witness, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MR CURRIN
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118	MR AARON MOKGATLE

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mokgatle, have you recently had an opportunity to speak to any of the applicants?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: I haven't had any opportunity to do so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you feel that you should be accorded that opportunity?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Yes, I feel so, because now I am here at the table speaking about those people, but I haven't yet sat down and spoke to them face to face.  And again, one other thing, I want to forget. I have just remembered it.  As this is the job of the Committee, I now personally plead with the Committee, is this Committee going to afford me the cost I incurred when burying my father, and because I have my own family, and I also have the grand-children who had no families, and it is me who is taking care of them. So I wonder whether the Committee cannot foresee for the cost I incurred.  That's my plea.   I wonder whether the Committee would help me with those costs of burying my grandfather or my father.  Can you please do something about that?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mokgatle, the Committee will take into account any costs that you want to place us in possession of, if you could just advise the Committee what costs you are referring to.  Just on the question of costs, how many children did actually Mr Mokgatle have?  You have counted sons so I am not sure whether you excluded any daughters.

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Regarding the children, I say I am not talking about my own children, I am talking about the children Mr Glad left at home when he died.   I don't say help me with my family, what I mean is help Mr Glad's children, all the costs I incurred in burying Glad.  And since he left this family hasn't had anyone to take care of them.  I don't mean the children of my own.   You must know
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that if you are a parent and you leave a house or a home,  the home can survive, because after the death of the old
man, the sister also died.  That is the children's mother.  And that happened in the same year.  The other died at least two months after Glad passed away.  
	One other thing that I nearly forgot, I want to remind you, the Committee, that here in Phokeng, we are one family.  I heard one of the witnesses saying or telling you how he relates with me.  He is telling the truth.  He is not lying.  They performed a very terrible deed, they killed their own grandfather, but they are still family to us.  That's what surprise us.  Therefore that is the last thing I wanted to say to you.
	Please just remember that I have problems regarding the burial of my father and the family that I am taking care of presently.  I will end there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mokgatle, the Committee will take cognisance of the costs which you have incurred as a result of the death of your father.  We have three committees within the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  It is this Committee.  We also have another Committee which is called the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee.  Our function here, is however, not to make any reparations of whatsoever nature, but we have to form an opinion whether as a result of the incident, for which amnesty is being sought, there are any victims from that incident. You have put evidence before us that you as a child of Mr Mokgatle has incurred burial expenses which you want that to be considered, and that Mr Mokgatle has children who suffered as a result of his death.  The Committee will take that into account.

MR AARON MOKGATLE: I thank you.
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120	MR CHARLES MOKGATLE

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much.

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Dankie.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have another witness to call, that is the younger brother to the witness who has just testified, but I need guidance from the Committee as to whether it would be apposite of me to call such a witness.  Because the witness has made this special request and does not intend to give evidence about the incident as such, but to make a certain appeal to the tribe by way of reconciliation.  I want the Committee's directive whether the witness can be called in line with reconciliation.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, you may call the witness you propose calling.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Then I call Charles Mokgatle.

CHARLES MOKGATLE: (Duly sworn, states).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Mokgatle, Aaron Mokgatle is your eldest brother, not so?

MR CHARLES MOKGATLE: Yes, that's true, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many all in all are you at home, children to the deceased?

MR CHARLES MOKGATLE: We are three, we are three gentlemen.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Earlier on, as a family you had agreed that Aaron Mokgatle, by virtue of him being the eldest, will testify.  Do you remember that?

MR CHARLES MOKGATLE: I remember that, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You approached me and requested that you also would like to testify but on something different, and you wanted to say something about reconciliation.  Is that so?

MR CHARLES MOKGATLE: That's correct, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You will testify to that effect?
PHOKENG HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
122	MR CHARLES MOKGATLE