Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: As I have explained that they would take the money, or fetch it from different banks. One of the banks that I can still remember was the Standard Bank. You had different banks from which this money was taken.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying there were a number of banks that were visited, where money was collected, not just one bank, on one day, on one particular day?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: They would go to different banks on one day. That was on Thursday.

ADV GCABASHE: And then do you have any specifics on where the money was then taken to on Friday? Specifically.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No, I am not in the position to give you specific names of firms, but I know the place, I know the area where this money was taken.

ADV GCABASHE: And then on the two Fridays that you were observing this van, did they go to the same places, or to different places?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: The van would go to different places, dropping off the money.

ADV GCABASHE: But would these be the same places the van had gone to the previous Friday?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Some of them would be, yes, the same places, but in other cases you'd have a different place.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. ...(indistinct) Mr Masilo paragraph 8. Can you tell the Committee where is Bongani Moyo at present?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Bongani Moyo is deceased.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How did he die?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: He was shot by police and he died.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you also tell the Committee about the two other members of the unit which is Freddie Makwe and Clive Majola.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Clive Majola and Freddie Makwe also died the same way as Bongani died. They too were shot by police.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you be a little more specific. Was this during an Apla operation, was this during what activity? Were they sitting at home when they were shot? I don't know if you can help us at all.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Which one should I start with? Bongani or who? Which one should I start with, Bongani?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, start with Bongani.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: After we had carried out the operation, we were then wanted and I think after it was discovered we were involved in the operation, Bongani was then shot by the police the same manner as I explained and when they found him they did not arrest him, they just shot him and he died on the spot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you then tell the Committee about Makwe and Majola? Where did they die?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Makwe also suffered or died the same way. He was shot by the police after he had just been arrested. When the police came, they just shot him and he too died on the spot. And the police later explained that he was trying to run away.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The other one, the last one?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Clive Majola was found in a house where he was sleeping and he too was killed the same way.

MR MALAN: Did all of this happen before you got arrested?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Bongani, or should I say, I was not arrested when Bongani died and Clive and Freddie died after we were arrested.

ADV GCABASHE: And then, to tidy this up. Explain the circumstances of your arrest.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I was arrested near Spruitview in Leondale. There is a certain gentleman that I went to visit the day. I spent the night at his place, I was arrested the following day in the morning, around the morning. I don't know how the police came to know that I was there, but the police came and arrested me at his place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed, Chairperson, if there are no questions? Chairperson, if there is nothing, I will proceed to paragraph 10. Mr Ngubeni, in paragraph 10, you are telling the Committee about the incident. How you went there and you followed this bakkie up until you took the money. The people were shot. Can you give the Committee a picture of what happened on that day in question as all of us were not there. Just give us a brief picture how this thing happened.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: We were working as a unit ...(indistinct) with other fellow comrades. We received a directive from Bongani our commander to the effect that we had to meet on that day. Indeed, we met at a certain house at Mailula Park. That is where we discussed so that umAfrika Bongani explained to us. At the time I already knew what was happening as a person who was always in his company during the reconnaissance reconnoitring the area. And these others did not know yet as to what was going to happen. They only got to know what was going to happen on that day of our meeting. And they were informed and we all slept in one place that evening.
	And the following morning we then left as planned and we went to the place that Bongani and I have been reconnoitring. There were six of us including the deceased, Bongani. We went to the place where this vehicle will drop off the money and we waited for the vehicle and it came out as usual, because it usually went out on Fridays to deliver the money at different places.
	We followed the money, or the vehicle as planned and when the vehicle came to a T-junction at robots, that is where these comrades got off the vehicle and I remained with Trevor Masilo in the vehicle. And the other four got off. We were using a bakkie. And the car that we had been following was in front of us. They got out of our vehicle and approached the vehicle in front of us, approaching it from the left-hand side. And Bongani was leading them, having an AK47 in his possession. And when they arrived at the van ultimately, I don't know what happened, I only heard gun shots. And I saw this one white man getting off the vehicle, running away and stumbling and falling as he was running away.
	We went to the dumping site where we dropped the vehicle of the people that we had robbed and we took the trunks full of money and put them in the vehicle that we were using. We then went to Extension 10 where we counted the money, after which we handed it over to Comrade Bongani.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how much money was, after you have counted?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: In total, we counted R155 000.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The other point I would like to explain to the Committee regarding the incident at this T-junction. Was it part of your plan that these people who were driving this Cash in Transit vehicle were to be shot dead?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: It was not our plan. It was not part of our planning, but Bongani made it clear to us that if they resisted or attempted to fight, we would have to fight and we would have to shoot them. But the intention was to grab the money.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened to the ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, I understood that question to be whether the T-junction was the place targeted to execute the robbery. Is that not the question? Mr Mbandazayo, you've asked the T-junction, whether that was part of the plan. Was the question not whether - oh, let me put the question then. Was the T-junction earlier identified as the place where the robbery would be executed?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No, I would not say that it was a place specifically chosen for the robbery. We just discussed that we should use any conducive place for the robbery.

MR MBANDAZAYO: True, Chairperson, my question was whether in doing so, in going there to take this money from this Cash in Transit, was it part of their plan that they would kill the occupants, the people who were transporting the money. Chairperson, I would like to proceed, if there is nothing else, to the next point, which is the escape from prison. Mr Ngubeni, can you also take the Committee through everybody here, give us picture what happened about the escape as a whole.