Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

ADV PRIOR: He disappeared plus minus, more or less around the 25th of April of 1987 and has never been seen since?  I am just asking whether you know or not.  This is a request that has come from the family.
	It would seem at least in the victims' minds, that if Bhila was assassinated for the reasons that have been given here, it would seem also logical that your unit would have been looking for Nxiweni at the same time and that possibly, quite possibly he was mistaken for Pindele Mfeti, who also went missing from the campus, from Allan Taylor.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: We heard evidence from Mr Ramatala that bonuses were paid to askaris. I should imagine bonuses were also paid or rewards paid to informers?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: In the case of the Ndwandwe matter, and I am not asking you to at this stage to reveal the identity of your informers, are you able to tell the Committee whether in any of these operations, Ndwandwe or Nxiweni or the other kwaMashu 3, whether informers were paid?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Does that mean that you do not know?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I say in the case of these people, bonuses were not paid.

MR MALAN: And you are sure about this?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I am.

ADV PRIOR: Were rewards paid as opposed to bonuses?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The general term in the case of rewards for those who were trained outside of the country, as in the police, it was used as rewards.

ADV PRIOR: But in this case where Ndwandwe, the operation to obtain Ndwandwe, Portia Ndwandwe, are you able to say out of your own recollection whether rewards were paid?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, no bonuses were paid, or another form of reward for her.

ADV PRIOR: So in other words no money was paid over?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, in her case specifically for the abductions, no.

ADV PRIOR: And if we can just clarify with the other two incidents, Nxiweni and with the kwaMashu 3?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, no money was  paid for those specific incidents.

ADV PRIOR: Was there any reason for that?  It seemed to be a departure from the usual practice?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative Mr Chairperson.  I would just like to explain that Mr Ramatala's explanation concerning rewards for the askaris of Vlakplaas, is not as it was the normal practice.
	If I can just get an opportunity to explain this.  Informants or any person who gave information that led to the arrest or the elimination of a terrorist ...(recording stopped) ... became R2 500-00 per person.  A certain amount was connected to for example a land mine or a Makarov and these information that we received, were rewarded.  The askaris, if they were to operate here by the identification of a person, led to the arrest of a terrorist and these rewards were then paid to them in Pretoria, at the unit at Head Office.
	In the activity that occurred in Natal, where one of our informants, information led to the arrest of a person, we then paid the person here.  It was sent to Head Office and we then paid that person directly.  We never paid out rewards as we thought fit, and that is concerning the physical identification of such a person and then the arrest of that person.

ADV PRIOR: In the case of Portia Ndwandwe, you knew where she was residing in Swaziland before the operation, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Did that information filter through via your information network, intelligence network that was already in place in Swaziland?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: If I may ask you this question, the two informers that assisted you in Swaziland on the day in question to bring Ms Ndwandwe out of Swaziland, they were not part, or they had not given you the information relating to her whereabouts?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: I am sorry the use of your word negative, you say no, they were not part of the information structure or are you saying that the statement is wrong?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I agree with your first interpretation of the word negative.

MR VISSER: Perhaps I should just direct my learned friend's attention in case he wants to ask questions about it, on this issue, on page 86, the last paragraph of volume 2 Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I just want to ask about the actual, physical detention of Portia Ndwandwe in Swaziland.  When you had put her into the kombi, did she acquiesced, did she struggle, did she put up a fight?  Can you explain the position?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Mr Chairman, she did resist.

ADV PRIOR: Was she subdued?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I would say that most of us, we could easily hold her, and we then tied her hands with a rope.

ADV PRIOR: It seems that she obviously, when she realised what was going on, she didn't want to go with you voluntarily and had to be physically restrained and subdued as you have indicated, she was held down and she was cuffed, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: You indicated in your evidence that at some stage, she was at the back of a bakkie and you climbed in with her, and you were under a tarpaulin or a cover.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Is that when you drove to the Onverwacht border post?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Why was that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was the only place where we could sit and that was at the back of the bakkie.  Laurie and Sam was in the front and because of the tarpaulin at the back of the bakkie that was to protect us from the weather, it was raining at that stage.

ADV PRIOR: The interrogation at the Onverwacht safe house, are you able just to give us an idea of how long that endured?  Was it three or four hours, was it longer?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If I had to put together the uninterrupted times, I would say that it would have been a maximum of four hours.

ADV PRIOR: At Onverwacht, did it appear clear to you that she wasn't going to cooperate with the Security Branch?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, in terms of her cooperation and answering questions regarding information, there was cooperation, but in terms of her willingness as an informer, there was no cooperation.

ADV PRIOR: So she was prepared to give you crucial information regarding her unit and the Natal machinery, which you have said, she indicated who Nxiweni was and the operation that he had been involved in, but she wasn't prepared to give her full cooperation as an informer or as an askari, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: That information just came out of a question and answer exercise?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: No assaults with no torture whatsoever?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Would you agree with me that even at that stage, your branch had virtually all the information that they required regarding the Natal machinery?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Mr Chairperson, I wouldn't say that we had all the information, one would have wanted all the information.

ADV PRIOR: Were you interested in tying up who was responsible for what operation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The structure in Swaziland, was one thing, and the structure within the RSA was another, and then we came to the individuals, and there were certain aspects of information in which we would have been interested.