bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

SISI KHAMPEPE: How long did it take you - as you said just before the elections the violence became rife, how long did it take you to mount efforts in order for you to banish them or beat them?  Did it take you moths or years?

ALFIUS JACKSON JEKE: It was quite a few years up to the period of the decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there no further questions?  There's one aspect that, Mr Prior, you can perhaps save us time on if you can.  It appears from the evidence that the position was completely out of control in this area, that also appears from Judge Nicholson's Judgment, do you accept that, that "The Mafia" had gone completely berserk and out of control and had made life unbearable for the ordinary members of the community?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, yes, that's certainly my understanding, having spoken to various persons in the area, that law and order had broken down to a very substantial extent.

CHAIRPERSON: No more questions.  Yes, sorry, re-examination?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, M'Lord, just one question.
	You spoke about people from other areas coming into this area and you spoke about the killing of the Development Committee people, can you tell us something that you mentioned to me in our consultation, about people coming from another area during 1993, just for the record and mention that area and what your suspicions were.

ALFIUS JACKSON JEKE: These were the people who came from Wellbedash(?).  When we saw them at first instance they were communicating or mixing with "The Mafia" group and they were committing the same deeds that were conducted by "The Mafia" group.

MR SAMUEL: What were your suspicions regarding who these people were?

ALFIUS JACKSON JEKE: We suspected that they were also affiliated to "The Mafia" because they acted in the very same manner that "The Mafia" did.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, M'Lord.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude the evidence you are leading?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are the applicants sitting?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: You can join the other applicants now, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

MR SAMUEL: I would like Mr Nzama to confirm his affidavit and the evidence of Mr Jeke.

ADV POTGIETER: Are your full names, Bheki Alfius Nzama?

BHEKI ALFIUS NZAMA: (sworn states)

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, M'Lord.
	Mr Nzama, you applied for amnesty to this Committee and you submitted an affidavit, do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

BHEKI ALFIUS NZAMA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Nzama, you heard the evidence of Mr Jeke who testified before you, do you confirm what he said to this Committee?

BHEKI ALFIUS NZAMA: Yes, I do.

MR SAMUEL: What political organisation did you belong to in 1993?

BHEKI ALFIUS NZAMA: The ANC.

MR SAMUEL: What position did you hold with the ANC?

BHEKI ALFIUS NZAMA: I was in the Youth League.

MR SAMUEL: I have no further questions, M'Lord.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: No questions from the Committee.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Nzama, you may be seated.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes the matter set down for hearing today, so we're in the happy position that at least we can for once adjourn having completed the day's work rather than to have to wait for it.  We thank all those who appeared for their assistance.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may we take a short adjournment.  I see Mr Wills has arrived, just to discuss what is to happen.  Please all rise.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] position, Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the position is that we are unable to proceed with this matter.  Firstly, the victims have not arrived at the hearing, there has been some problem fetching them from Empangeni.  I also understand from Mr de Klerk that he is not in a position to proceed, he needs to consult further and take statements from potential witness and so forth.
	In the circumstances I would recommend that the matter be adjourned to a date to be arranged between Mr de Klerk, myself and possible, Mr Coetzee in Cape   Town.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you remain the Evidence Leader for this matter?

ADV PRIOR: Well I'll certainly indicate that to Advocate Mpshe.

CHAIRPERSON: And will you please also indicate that the victims, so-called victims, that is victims, potential witnesses and interested parties took the trouble to come to the hearing on Monday but were informed that they should go to Pinetown and that that was the reason why the matter was adjourned originally, isn't it or am I mixed up?
	So there can be no suggestion that they are not here today because they are not interested parties. They have already taken the trouble to come down from a long way away on the occasion they believed the matter would be heard and I think it important to ensure that before the next hearing they are given adequate notice and that proper arrangements are made to make sure they are here and also any witness that the applicant wishes called from what is quite a long way away.  It may in fact even be better to hear this particular application in that part of the world, where the witnesses can come and I'm sure there are other cases in that part of the world which warrant a hearing.  I must say I feel the purpose of public hearings is to bring the matter before the public.  
	Well if you look around at what we've had here, half a dozen people.  That purpose is not being achieved by having large halls in Durban, a long way away from where these people live and I would ask you, Mr Prior, please to talk to whoever arranges the meetings with a view to, these matters that do involve intimately the members of the local population, that we should go to them rather than drag them down to Pinetown or Durban.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I'll certainly convey that to the organisers of the roll, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, you understand we cannot proceed with your hearing today.  Now this is the second time that it's had to be adjourned and I do apologise to you for that fact, but we now will arrange for the matter to be set down on a date convenient to the witnesses and to your lawyer and to yourself and we hope we can do that in the not too distant future, thank you.
	The matter is adjourned to a date to be arranged after consultation with all parties.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-22

CHAIRPERSON: Well where does that appear in the application?  The application is only in respect of the murder and the attempted murder.
	The six counts all arise from the same incident, when a group of people attacked a vehicle and killed or sought to kill the passengers.  Two of them, Dodo Joseph Madiba and Khija John Mthembu were killed.  The other four, Ralph Dube, Mamagaluna Khomo, Aaron Mbele and Tokizani Mbele escaped with their lives but in some instances suffered serious injuries.
	This is was yet another of the incidents that arose out of the political tensions that existed in Kwazulu Natal at the time, that is on the 30th of April 1991.  	It is clear from the various statements contained in the bundle of papers put before us, that there was extreme tension on both sides and extreme hostility, that a state of almost warfare existed.  There were killings of members of both sections and the applicant has given evidence to the effect that he was an active member of the ANC and of a self-defence unit in the area and that finally the decision was taken that they would have to take some strong action to advance their political prestige and position in the area with a view to ultimately reach some agreement that would result in the killings coming to an end.
	It has not been challenged, nor could it in my view on the information before us, that the acts committed were committed as part of a political group and that the intent was certainly one which could be classified as an act with a political objective.
	They used petrol bombs and shotguns and it was quite clearly a brutal attack in which people were  unfortunately killed.  We have with us today the widows of two of the deceased and also one of the men who has suffered grievous bodily harm.  They have indicated that they do not oppose the application, that they seek reconciliation in the future, for which they are to be praised and thanked.
	We are satisfied that the applicant has made out a case for amnesty and we accordingly GRANT HIM AMNESTY IN RESPECT OF THE MURDER OF DODO JOSEPH MADIBA AND KHIJA JOHN MTHEMBU AT OR NEAR THE SYKOR BRIDGE, UMKOMAAS ON THE 30TH OF APRIL 1991, AND THE ATTEMPTED MURDER OF RALPH DUBE MAMAGALUMA KHOMO, AARON MBELE, TOKIZANI MBELE AT THE SAME DATE AND PLACE.
	We are satisfied on the information placed before us, that MRS MARY MADIBA, the widow of the first-named deceased IS A VICTIM and that she has been left a widow with three young children who are still at school.
	The same is true of MRS THEMBISILE MTHEMBU, the widow of the second deceased who has been left a widow with six children, four of whom are still at school.
	There are also the three survivors of the attack, MR R B DUBE, MR AFRICA MBELE AND MR AARON MBELE.  We refer these persons to the R & R Committee for their consideration AS VICTIMS in terms of the relevant provisions of the Act.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-22

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the position with Cele's application is simply removed from the roll or struck from the roll?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think so.  ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: If he does change his mind he will have to make application for its re-instatement.  We won't adjourn it, we strike it from the roll.
	And thank you, Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank those of you who have come here today and to the applicant to having shown contrition for the acts of the past, thank you.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there is one final matter to dispose of is simply for an adjournment.
	Could Mr Tulani Cele and Mr Roy Cele come forward?
Mr Chairman this is a matter that was adjourned from the Pinetown roll for convenience.  It was put on our roll today because Mr Samuel also appears on behalf of the two applicants.  The matter is simply to be adjourned.  I understand from Mr Samuel that he's going to consult further with the applicants and will seek in due course to amplify the application or amend the application accordingly for ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well if it can be amended.

ADV PRIOR: If it can be amended.

CHAIRPERSON: It may well be that the ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR SAMUEL: I will take instructions and advise my clients accordingly, Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: May the matter simple be adjourned to a date to be arranged with their legal representative, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: This matter is adjourned to a date to be arranged.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, that concludes the hearings for this sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you, Mr Prior, for your assistance and overcoming the various obstacles that have come before us.  As we have already said, and I will repeat, that if there is an opportunity to set matters down afresh, consideration should be given to where is most convenient to the victims, the implicated parties and also the community at large.
	There are a number of these matters which if heard in the right area would bring the community to the hearing and they would realise what is being done and the purpose of this.  I think that that is very important and we, the three members of the Committee will do all we can to help you in that, Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-15

CHAIRPERSON: We were sitting today to hear the applications of Tulani Percival Keli, Bongani Richard Khumalo, Boy Bongomusa Keli.  Unfortunately due to a misunderstanding with the Correctional Services Department the Two Kelis are not here, we only have the applicant Khumalo.  The Committee consists of myself Andrew Wilson, Judge Khampepe, and Mr Wynand Malan.  Could the representatives announce themselves?

MR SAMUEL: I am Raymond Samuel on behalf of the applicant Khumalo, B R Khumalo in this matter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...(indistinct)Mr Chairman myself of the Committee ...(indistinct) Mpshe for the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position then?

MR SAMUEL: In respect of applicant number 3, V R Khumalo, Your Honour, my instructions are that the applicant ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Applicant 2.

MR SAMUEL: 2, my apologies, the applicant wishes to withdraw his application for amnesty, however he would like to take this opportunity and be given an opportunity to formally apologise to the victim's family and the affected community, thank you.

MR KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, I understand that you are completely fluent in English, is that so?  And you understand what your attorney has just said, that you are going to withdraw your amnesty application, do you confirm that?

MR KHUMALO: Yes I withdraw the application.

CHAIRPERSON: But you wish to make certain remarks and we invite you to do so.

MR KHUMALO: I withdraw the application and I want to apologise to the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to say anything further?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chair I just wanted to give him this for him to understand if the Chair could with respect repeat what was said for them to interpret for him please.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm what your attorney has said that you wish to withdraw your application for amnesty but you wish to make certain remarks to the victims and other interested parties.

MR KHUMALO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR KHUMALO: I apologise to the people who lost their lives because of the political situation because what happened and what we did was because of the system of apartheid, not because we were there for personal gain.  This happened to them because they were members of the IFP, an organisation that we were fighting against.  I am sorry for what happened to them although I was not directly involved in the death of the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to say anything further?

MR KHUMALO: I don't have anything to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well so this application has now been withdrawn, it will be noted and the application of the first and third applicants will be adjourned to a date to be arranged.  We will now adjourn until 9H30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-16

CHAIRPERSON: ... by Advocate M J Lassink and Mr P Falconer.  The Evidence Leader is Mr Mpshe.
	I understand that as in the previous matters, the applicant was in fact in prison at Waterval, Utrecht and was therefore not available for consultation till he was brought down here today, is that the position?

MR FALCONER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And that it is as a result of the consultation you have managed with him this morning, it has become necessary for you to consult with other possible witnesses, I don't put them higher than possible or certainly other sources of information and perhaps to prepare an amended or amplified affidavit.

MR FALCONER: That is correct, Mr Chairman, it would be more of a supplementary affidavit, if necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have requested us that the matter should be adjourned.  There is a Committee sitting in Durban and we have what appear to be two short matters set down for Wednesday of next week.  I propose to adjourn this matter until Wednesday.  I will warn you here though that if it's not heard on Wednesday it may have to stand over to Thursday or till Friday.  We will certainly endeavour to dispose of it next week but I don't propose to adjourn it till the Monday because I think you should be given the time to prepare, rather than have to rush through it again.  Would that suit you?

MR FALCONER: That would suite me, Mr Chairman, I appreciate it.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any problems with that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No problems, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I would request the authorities, the Correctional Supervision authorities, to make arrangements that the applicant remains at Westville Prison until the hearing is concluded next week so that he will be available for consultations with his legal advisors.  Sorry, I've just realised that the applicant has not had earphones on, does he speak English?

MR FALCONER: Mr Chairman, he does understand English fairly well.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that your matter is adjourned until next Wednesday?

APPLICANT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Well that concludes the hearings set down for this week, precisely nil.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

CHAIRPERSON: So then the next of kin of Mrs Mkhize, Mrs Grace Mkhize will be regarded in terms of the Act as being victims of this incident.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman may I for purposes of the names of the victims without addresses, may I apply that the contents of page 14 of the papers, this I've checked and confirmed, Mr Chairman, be incorporated in the record as people or victims who were injured in the bus?  I will further make a commitment that when the addresses are made available, this will be conveyed to the relevant authorities, but for purposes of the record, contents of page 14 contains names of all victims, Mr Chairman.  May that be incorporated?

CHAIRPERSON: That's eight of them.

MR LAX: There's a couple more at the bottom as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there's some down at the bottom.  But then I doubt whether this will, when I say doubt it may be that this doesn't - you see this includes Grace Mkhize who is obviously a victim but not for purposes of reparation, it should be her next of kin.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Her daughter and of course if her daughter's got brothers and sisters, them as well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman, she will be included and we will get more information as to whether there's an elder sister or brother and this will be conveyed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe and then I'd appreciate that if that could be forwarded to me as soon as possible.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be done Mr Chairman.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I'd then like to thank the legal representatives, Mr Mpshe, for their assistance in this matter and we will now adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-23

MR MCHUNU: Definitely yes, naturally I would agree.  The submissions with regards to the questions posed by my learned friend, Mr Nel, I think I am in full agreement with that.
	Other than that, I do not have any further response, unless the Committee members want me to address it on some other point.

MR LAX: Did I hear you say that you are in full agreement with what Mr Nel said?

MR MCHUNU: Not exactly.  Mr Mukadam.

MR LAX: Mukadam, I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mchunu, Mr Falconer, Mr Nel, Mr Mukadam.  We will reserve judgement and we hope that the decision will come out in the very near future. 	Thank you very much.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Are you referring to which case?

MR MALAN: The Buthelezi and others.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I wasn't involved with that.  Not in the investigation, not in the court case.  I don't recall the names even, of the people who were involved in that.

MR MALAN: Surely you weren't involved, but I mean to them, to the Unit, for the Unit, that was a priority, it was an important case?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: To the local Unit, I imagine it was a very important case.

MR MALAN: You can't recall that they ever discussed it during your presence down there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I am sure they must have spoken about the case, I just don't recall it.

MR MALAN: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, if this witness may be excused, may I call Mr Wasserman.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR VISSER: How far from the scene were you at the time?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I was standing from here to perhaps Mr Wilson.

MR VISSER: Justice Wilson, about five, six paces?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

MR VISSER: And were you able to observe what was going on?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: To a very large extend, I could.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.  Mr Wasserman, we know that thereafter you left.  Did you go back to Durban?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I went back to the rifle range first and then on to Durban, yes.

MR VISSER: What happened, well, you say the rifle range, do you mean the pistol shooting range?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What happened there?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I then reported to Mr Taylor.

MR VISSER: Was he still there?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He was there, he was waiting there.

MR VISSER: Yes, and you told him what had happened?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I told him.

CHAIRPERSON: And you left your car there?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I had indeed, yes sir.

MR MALAN: Were there any other people waiting with Major Taylor at the range at that time when you returned?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: There was another vehicle there Mr Chairman, I think that was Warrant Officer Lembede's vehicle.  I don't recall anyone else, there might have been another personality with him, but I couldn't name such a person.

MR MALAN: Why would Taylor have stayed behind and wait for you there, all by himself?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I can't answer that.  I think he would have waited to check on that vehicle that was also left at the range.  My vehicle as well as Mr Lembede's.

MR MALAN: Can you tell me why all of you had to go along for the execution, I think you said yourself McCarter, Rosslee, Bosch and Lembede went with for the execution of Bhila, why all of you?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Well, Mr Taylor informed me that I must accompany Lembede, he would take us to a  place where the job could be done.  My exact role, I presume was just to accompany Lembede as another Durban person, on this operation.

MR MALAN: And to your recollection, only Mr Taylor stayed behind at the range, at that stage?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is my recollection, yes sir.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am hoping you are going to tell me that you have had enough of this day.

CHAIRPERSON: 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, if the legend was created, that had to be carried out, that was the information that we received.

CHAIRPERSON: Going back to Nxiweni.  Do you know who I am talking about?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You had the opportunity as I understand it, to have charged him with the unlawful possession of firearms and explosives?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't bother to do anything further about that, because you had already decided to kill him?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So, your interest wasn't seeing if you could lawfully take him out of circulation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, the decision to eliminate Nxiweni, was taken already when we took him.  The information concerning the ammunition or the trunk of ammunition, was only made that evening after I took the decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why couldn't you have changed your mind?  Why insist on going on with the murder of a man, when it was no longer necessary?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In my opinion it was still necessary.  I just confirmed that he is involved, that he did receive  ammunition and I just cleaned up around him.

CHAIRPERSON: So you weren't interested, you were more interested in killing people than in securing evidence and prosecuting them in the lawful manner?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In the instances where the activity of a person was of such prominence, that would be my decision, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that make your job easier, is that why you were doing that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In the case of where a person, Mr Chairperson, was responsible for acts of terror, in the execution and planning of it, yes it did make our task easier when we eliminated them, because we could then stop the process.

MR VISSER: May the witness be excused Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-17

MR VISSER: I believe it is Justice Myburgh, but I am under correction Mr Chairman, I will check that for you and let you know.
	It is at Carla's, at page 233 - 234.  I believe it is Justice Myburgh speaking here.  However that may be Mr Chairman, if it were His Lordship Justice Diplock, with respect, it won't have compelling or binding - it won't be binding authority in this country Mr Chairman, but certainly it would be authority of a very persuasive nature, especially in view of our constitution which says that in dealing with matters, regard should be had to foreign law as well.
	Mr Chairman, we submit that it is clear from the reading of Carla's case, that considerations taken into account on whether to order disclosure of the identity of the informers, must of necessity include the question of the effect of such an order, upon all aspects of the work of the police in fighting crime and the safety of the informers.
	If I may say so Mr Chairman, it is important to realise that it is not a question which can or should be considered in isolation with regard to the facts or circumstances of any particular case Mr Chairman. 
	We submit with respect, that one must not be blinded by the facts of the particular circumstances here, of Ms Ndwandwe, being abducted from Swaziland during the struggle of the past, with all the accompanying political undertones, etc and say that in those circumstances, I am going to order you to tell me who the informers are.
	The effect of such an order Mr Chairman, is an universal effect, on all the work of the police.  The police also of today.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Visser, are we not dealing here with a very peculiar circumstances, where as I understand it, I may be wrong in this, the so-called informers were in fact, what is often referred to as askaris?  They were members of the liberation struggle, who had been turned in some way or another, and were now being used by the police for their purposes.

MR VISSER: That is so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not relevant in those circumstances, and I would like to hear argument on this, to get the views of the so-called informers?  If their attitude is we did this, we were forced to do it by the police, we would like to come out into the open now, it is a completely different picture, isn't it?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if they wanted to be here, they would have been here.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, have they been notified that they might be implicated?  That is another one of the problems that whatever decision we may come to, in my view and I am subject again to argument, would feel that we are subject also to the obligation on us, to notify persons who might be implicated parties, for them to express their views.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-19

MR VISSER: Just one aspect concerning yesterday's inspection Mr Chairman, and that is - I just thought that it's as well that you know.  My attorney tells me that the area seems to be littered with places that would fit the description so, you know.  Other than that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think we must get someone with local knowledge.

MR VISSER: Other than that, I have nothing further to add.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, Mr Wasserman yesterday indicated, that's a point I forgot to mention, that if it could be established where the home of Mr Lembedi was.  Maybe that can assist because probably the cliff is closer to Mr Lembedi's home.  That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: That is one of the matters we had discussed this morning, enquiries in that regard could be made.
	Well then gentlemen, it seems that we will now adjourn.  We would welcome written argument, but I don't know, indicate to me whether you would prefer to wait before presenting your argument until we have received any further information and given a decision.  I don't think any decision as to the naming or otherwise of these two people would effect credibility in any way or effect the basic argument so I would think it would probably be better to proceed but preserve your right to amplify or amend.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: I concur, yes.
ADV. PRIOR: I do agree, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You will then hear from us when we will notify you with - we've heard finally from Mr Botha whether we have had any other information in regard to the finding of the body and then you can let us have your arguments.  Thank you.
	And thank you all for your assistance during this hearing which has made the task easier for us and we're obliged to you and I hope that when we have the continued hearing which we're going to have some time that we see you there again, Mr Ngubane.

MR VISSER: Shouldn't you say Merry Christmas, Mr Chairman?
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

UNKNOWN: Briefly Mr Chair.  Firstly I would like to put it on record that I don't have any objections, to them being granted amnesty.
	Secondly, I think there is a very thin line between two situations here.  One scenario is that it is possible that the applicants saw, or it is possible that the deceased had attacked the applicants before, who were ANC and the deceased was IFP.
	The deceased came to visit his mum, the applicants saw him, they decided to kill him.  It might have been a revenge.  That is one scenario.
	The second scenario is of course that from the judgement, even from the evidence of some witnesses, I am reading at page 107 of our bundle, where one of the State witnesses did make an indication that the deceased was an IFP member, it would appear that the situation really was one where there was political conflict in the area between the IFP and ANC at Macubeni.
	This was not an unusual situation, especially in kwaZulu Natal, where you would find that the ANC would attack the IFP and the IFP would attack the ANC.  Basically my submission is that I wouldn't have any objections should the Committee decide anyhow, I would abide.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Any response Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: I have none, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will reserve our decision in this matter, and hope that it will be handed down in the near future, in a written form.  Thank you.
	That then concludes the roll for today.

MS THABETE: It concludes the roll for today Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The matter for tomorrow Ms Thabete, is that on course?

MS THABETE: The matters for tomorrow, it is six applicants.  I will give you the applications of that too, it is Alfred Mandla Mhlambo, Xolani Braveman Tsotetsi, Mzwandile Justice Magula, Hector Makendanis Kakane.  We have also added the application of Tulani Zondi and Xolani Pungula, but it is one incident, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  What time would you suggest would be an appropriate starting time?

MS THABETE: I would suggest half past nine.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  That then brings us to the end of today's proceedings. We will be hearing other applications tomorrow morning in this hall, the same venue and we will start at half past nine tomorrow morning.  We accordingly then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning at this hall, thank you very much.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-25

CHAIRPERSON: I think, well this is all speculation, but if they went to Msolo as they went and Msolo said she shall not be killed, then she probably wouldn't have been killed?

MR SIPHO: Yes, I agree with that, she probably wouldn't have been killed, and I think that also goes against the idea that they probably already had the intention to kill.
	I don't think that view can be supported.

MR LAX: They may have wanted to kill her.  If Msolo had said don't kill her, it is highly unlikely that they would have gone against his wishes and that much is evident from the judgement and in that respect, the learned Judge in the matter found mitigating circumstances in their favour with the fact that they were sort of under his command so to speak.
	I think we can rest assured on that one.

MS THABETE: Accepting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, we will reserve our decision in this matter.  We will hand down a written decision in the near future, hopefully in the very near future.
	I would like to thank Mr Sipho and Ms Thabete for the assistance they have given to us during this hearing and Ms Thabete is that the end of the roll for today?

MS THABETE: That is the end of the roll for today.

CHAIRPERSON: And tomorrow we have two matters set down.  Have you managed to arrange with any of them to be able to start at nine o'clock or not?

MS THABETE: I have phoned the prison that they must try and bring them by nine o'clock, they said they would do their best.

CHAIRPERSON: And the legal representative?

MS THABETE: I phoned him during lunch, but he was consulting.  I left a message for him to call me back.  I will make a follow up.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we will do then, we will then adjourn now until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.

MS THABETE: Certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: And hopefully we will be able to start at that time.

MS THABETE: I will ensure that we start at nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will then adjourn now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

MR HLONGWANE: Thank you.  I have one question to ask Mr Hlengwa as well as to the Committee.
	Would a person be killed by one bullet through his thigh, because when I found my son, he had a bullet wound along the thigh as well as a stab wound along the chest.  When it was explained to me, it was that he had been shot at and then stabbed.
	Secondly, would a person be granted amnesty, if they do not tell the entire truth?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlengwa, the question from what Mr Hlongwane is said, it would be that according to his knowledge his son, who is one of the deceased persons, his son, Sergeant Hlongwane, had a bullet wound on a thigh on his leg, and also a stab wound on his chest.
	Now we have heard you in your evidence saying that no one was stabbed.  I think he is asking you, he is disputing that statement of yours.  Do you have anything to say in response to what Mr Hlongwane has said?

MR NGUBANE: Sorry Mr Chairman, before the witness can respond, there was just a slip up in the interpretation.  In fact the question referred to the shin and not the thigh.

CHAIRPERSON: The shin, sorry not the thigh, but in the shin, that is the lower portion of the leg - there was a bullet wound, and a chest wound, made by a knife or a sharp instrument.

MR LAX: If you will just press the red button please.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: As far as I know, from what I witnessed, I did not see anybody stabbed and even amongst my colleagues, no one produced a knife and I didn't see anybody with a knife.
	I am also surprised about who actually stabbed  or who was this policeman who stabbed him.  I would just like to know if you know Mr Hlongwane, who it was that stabbed him.  If you say that one policeman stabbed him, was it maybe one of his colleagues or who?

MR HLONGWANE: I was not present at the scene, but from what I heard, I ultimately arrived at the scene, but you have not responded to my question.  Is a person killed by a bullet wound to the shin?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: If you are directing that question to me, although I am not a medical practitioner, it would appear to me that a person would not die after being hit on the shin.
	But it is also possible that a person may be shot on the arm, and die.  What surprises me is that you say he was stabbed.  As I explained before, I did not see anybody stabbing anyone.

MR HLONGWANE: Thank you.  What I do know is that I bathed his corpse and I did see a stab wound, it appeared to be from a screwdriver.
	Moreover, I wouldn't say that a person was shot and not stabbed, if he had been stabbed, because it would make no difference to me.  It would make no difference to say that he was only shot and not stabbed, if he had been stabbed, because this person is now deceased.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HLONGWANE

MS THABETE: Can I respond?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Hlongwane.  Thank you Mr Hlengwa, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will now just take a short adjournment, between this and the next application.  If you can just let us know when you are ready to start, thank you.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

CHAIRPERSON: It seems from what we have heard here, that he was as much a victim of the struggle that went on between the parties as the owner of vehicle at the time and the magistrate had regard to the fact that the owner of the vehicle had lost R40 000.  We don't know how much the applicant lost in his house, his business and I gather there were some vehicles there that were also damaged.  It's a matter that I think, although technically he's not a victim, he's certainly should be considered.

ELIAS KESLA MTOLO: My house in Richmond was a double-storey and my business was very busy.  I had a kombi, two BMW's, two Colt Gallants and a bakkie, a Mazda.  Some other people's cars were also burnt in that garage.  As I'm about to be released from prison I should know what is going to happen because as I am speaking to you now, my children do not go to school because I only earn R12 a month in prison, so that my children can eat.  What should I do now because I am about to be released from prison?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we have all heard should be a lesson to all of us as to how this violence that has troubled our country from time to time, the extreme damage that it does to the ordinary people of our land, people who before that were contributing towards our country and now find themselves deprived of any opportunity to do so, and I certainly hope, and I know that his attorney will take great care to put him in touch with those sources that could help establish himself again on his release, and I trust that he will be able to do so.
	We will now adjourn.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, before I call the next witness, it appears just from my looking and checking on the volume of the translation, as apposed to the original, that there may be a similar problem in relation to this translation, that there was in relation to the first witness.  I'm not sure if that is the case because obviously I'm unable to speak Zulu.  I specifically refer to page 10 and 11 of the bundle, it seems to me that - and in fact page 13, it seems to me that the amount of writing in Zulu exceeds by far that as provided in the translation under the same questions.  I'd just like to seek possibly confirmation whether or not this is in fact an accurate translation.
	If one looks at 10(b) on page 13 and compares it with 10(b) on page 4, the translated version, it seems to me that it may, but there's a lot more writing there than there is in the English version.  I just want to avoid the problem where we don't have an accurate translation.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR LAX: Ms Translator, have you cast your eye at this thing at all?

INTERPRETER: That is what I'm doing right now.

MR LAX: Okay.  Are you able to in any way confirm what Mr Wills' fear is?

INTERPRETER: Yes, I think there may be some facts or some things that have been left out in the English translation.  It does appear so.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe, Mr Wills, if you are happy with that after consulting with your client, in order to expedite matters, instead of the interpreters writing it down, if your client can read his Zulu version and at the same time the interpreters follow him in giving the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: He can't read, he's never been to school.

MR SIBANYONI: I mean the next applicant.  I thought Mr Wills was talking about the next applicant.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, obviously I don't want to delay proceedings, but I really would like a translation of this done before I'm in a position to proceed.  I think that I'd be amiss in my obligations if I didn't have that.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be available tomorrow morning?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, if I could just look at my diary and I'll see, I think I am.  Mr Chairperson, I think I can make myself available.

CHAIRPERSON: Well wouldn't it be easier then, it is now seven minutes to four, to allow you to have the rest of this afternoon to make arrangements in one way or another to get it translated, with the assistance of those of your clients who can read?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And we start tomorrow morning with this.

MR WILLS: I'd appreciate that, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Nine thirty tomorrow morning.  Right, we'll adjourn now to enable the further translation to be done, if necessary till nine thirty tomorrow morning.

MR WILLS: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-25

MS MTANGA: Okay, I'll concede to that, Chairperson.  That ends my submission.

UNKNOWN: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to make one point on the proportionality aspect and I'd submit that the attitude towards the women indicates that clearly they were quite discerning by letting women and people from the area out and I would submit that they haven't acted overly ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It was - that was happening on both sides, wasn't it?

MR WILLS: Indeed yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you confirm, you rely also I take it fairly heavily on the report by the Monitor?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: To support that this did happen?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That the women and children were told to alight?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: As being from an outside source?

MR WILLS: Yes and I think also the finding by the judge not only in respect of the women but also in respect of the one person from Adams Mission, the judge at some point in the judgement and it is I think it was at page 106, if you can just bear with me, I've got it?  Yes, at page 106 and it starts actually at 105, describing Mrs Ntombelo's evidence who had made a good impression on the judge, she described how the second person told the females to leave and that they left including herself.  She described how her brother said that he was not from the area, he was in fact from Adams Mission and he was allowed to leave.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, thank you.

MR LAX: Mr Wills, it's also quite clear from page 132 that the judge had no doubt the matter was an attack by ANC on Inkatha supporters?

MR WILLS: Yes indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Right thank you, we will take time.  I would like to thank all the members of the audience who sat here so patiently for the days while we have been hearing these matters.  I trust you have now got a clearer picture of what happened in those troubled times and that they are something that we can now join together to put behind us.  Thank you all.
	Sorry, I think there's one matter we have to deal with, it is not as if I have dealt with it yet, we had a matter set down for hearing today, the application of Gumede which is being withdrawn from the roll and will be set down at some date in the future.
GUMEDE MATTER WITHDRAWN TO A FUTURE DATE
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, prior to the commencement of these proceedings, we held discussions with both our Evidence Leader, Ms Thabethe and your lawyer, Mr Molohlanye because we were perturbed that your amnesty application was only with regard to the two acts that have again been confirmed by your lawyer to be based on.  We are assured by Mr Molohlanye that the position has been (indistinct) explained to you, what the effect of the amnesty is and what the requirements thereof are.  We were assured further that you understood that if you do not apply for amnesty as you have done because you deny guilt in respect of the killing of both Martin Ngcobo and Mr Amos Cele,  that this Committee would then not have any jurisdiction at all to hear any of those acts for which you are not seeking amnesty.  We were assured by Mr Molohlanye that this had been explained to you and that you comprehended the situation quite well.  We were particularly concerned because we knew that at the time of applying for amnesty, you were not legally represented and we wanted to make sure that this was brought to your knowledge even before we commenced proceedings to hear your application.  As you have been undoubtedly informed by Mr Molohlanye, this is not a Court of Appeal, this is a very extraordinary and unique process where we only hear offenders who are admitting to having committed offences for which they seek amnesty and for which they allege that there was political motivation and which of course at the end of the day, we must be satisfied that indeed those offences were politically related.  Your request that this Committee should do something in respect of the offences for which you were convicted and sentenced involving the killing of Mr Martin Ngcobo and Amos Cele, you must be aware sir that we are in no position to do anything about that.  We had hoped that that position had been made crystal clear by Mr Molohlanye.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, I don't know what your direction will be to this Committee.  We would propose that we proceed to hear evidence of the second applicant in respect of the killing of Amos Cele before you can lead your witnesses in respect of both applicants.  I think that will expedite matters better, than if we were to give you an opportunity now to lead the evidence of the objectors in respect of the offences for which Mr Thulani Cele seeks amnesty.  Are you in agreement with that procedure?

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam Chair.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

ADV DE JAGER: The first gunshots, you thought it was in fact comrades shooting?  You didn't expect it would be IFP people shooting at you?  You gave evidence and said you thought it was the comrades shooting?
MR R.B. CELE: No, I didn't say so.   I wouldn't think that they were comrades shooting at me because comrades knew that they were not supposed to shoot at me.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I don't say shooting at you, but when you heard the shots, your evidence was that you thought it may be comrades shooting, unless I have it completely wrong?
MR R.B. CELE: No, I didn't say so.   I didn't say that I thought that it was comrades shooting.  I said I thought they were comrades and I started speaking to them, that is when they started shooting.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, I note that the time is five o'clock and I want to assume that you have a few questions to put to Mr Roy Cele, which will be longer than five minutes.  However, if your questions are going to be shorter than that, I will suggest that you proceed to put whatever questions you have for Mr Cele, if you contemplate your questions being longer than five minutes, I would direct that we adjourn today's proceedings to enable Mr Cele to retire and to be taken into Correctional Services protective custody.  I have actually ran foul of not observing and respecting the difficulties under which Correctional Services are working, by keeping these hearings until too late.  I am mindful of the fact that they need to go back for various and other logistical reasons.  Do you think you will be longer than five minutes?

MS THABETHE: I will Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: In that case, we will adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Will that be convenient, I am now directing this at members of Correctional Services, will nine o'clock be a convenient time for you to be here?  We would expect you to be here before nine o'clock, thank you.  We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

MR MOLOHLANYE: As the Committee pleases.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS