Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

CHAIRPERSON: It was reported that the Kwandebele people over the issue of Moutse were almost the passive people who were just being granted the land by the central government but what one gets from here when it is said that the people in Kwandebele needed Moutse, not even the people of Moutse.  Second that battalions and armies had to be sent.  It appears it was such an aggressive act that one wonders or whether we can explain such acts you know as being, as from the part of Kwandebele, as being passive recipients of what was being offered to them by the central government.

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I am sorry, I did not quite follow that question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is could the statement have been
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correct to say that the Kwandebele people were passive, they were just being offered the Moutse area without themselves having the intentions and the aspirations to have it you know willy-nilly.

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Are you referring to the Kwandebele cabinet or to the ordinary citizens?

CHAIRPERSON: I think in this case we are referring to the cabinet.  Because what comes through is that the general citizenry of Kwandebele were either ignorant of what was taking place and/or that their wishes were being undermined, as we have just said that the majority of the people did not favour independence.

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, when the riots took place in May 1986 in our mediation with the people, it surfaced that the people at grassroots level did not know exactly what was happening as far as the independent issue was concerned and also with the incorporation of the Moutse area.  The people inter alia said to us that if Kwandebele was to be independent then they may only buy in Kwandebele and that a third of their income would have to be paid to the government, and I can assure you that myself and van der Merwe told Chief Minister Kosana several times that, "look, the people do not know what is happening as far as the independence is concerned, we will help you, we will protect you, have meetings, if you have something to say, say it to the people.  And he said to me, "I have already spoken to the people in parliament".
 There were two cases Chairperson where after the School boycott started on the 6th of May, two large groups of children were found by police patrols.  They just sat there and the police went to them and said to them, "What is the 
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problem?", and they said they want to speak to the Chief Minister.  And in one case I know, he is now a senior superintendent, this was Maree, he contacted me and I got in my car and drove to the chief minister and said to him, "At a certain place you have several children who are sitting there peacefully and they say you must please come and speak to them, they want to hear from you what the story is with regards to independence and so forth".  And he said to me, 
"Commissioner, in all my life, as old as I am now, I have never spoken to a child and I do not intend to start now. 
 And the second time there was such a request again and I went to him personally and said to him, "Please, the children would like to speak to you, please speak to them", and he said the same thing, "I do not speak to children, I have already spoken to the people".

THOMAS MANTHATA: The last question with me would be, when after the murder of Skosana, 36 Bongoto people were arrested, I would love to know whether their release was during the time when you were in power or whether at that time they had already relieved you of the power and someone else set them free?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson I think as far as I remember, I checked up last night again, Skosana was killed on the 28th or 29th of April, Jacobs Skosana.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Jacobs Skosana, yes.

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Yes Jacobs Skosana.  He was murdered that day and the following morning Captain Piet Sutton was the chief investigating officer of the district.  He reported to me that Jacobs Skosana had been murdered the previous night by 36 alleged members of Mbokoto and that they had been arrested.  The system worked as such back then, when Mbokoto MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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members were arrested and charged, the Cabinet would arrange for bail to be granted or for them to be released and where Comrades were arrested, it was quite clear to me, that the court's sympathy was with the comrades and that they would also be released. So on both sides of the conflict, there was sympathy which enabled them to be released on bail or on warning each time.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At the time you left, had there already been
this turnabout in terms of some of the Kwandebele members supporting the independence whilst others were against the independence?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson when I left they were working full steam ahead on the idea of Kwandebele being independent.  The parliament could not sit because the resistance against the cabinet was too much. They could not get together a sitting. Approximately three days after Piet Ntuli's death the first day of quiet occurred in Kwandebele and it seems thereafter there was a bit of peace and quiet, and it seems shortly after I left here, I left on the 4th of August 1986, my last day in Kwandebele, and I believe that shortly thereafter the cabinet started sitting again. So in that time the idea was that they were still going to proceed full steam ahead with the idea of independence.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you General.

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson I would like to mention something else which bothered me.  If you read that memorandum to which was handed to the Minister of Police, I just want to find the page, I asked that the police functions not be handed over to the Kwandebele via this memorandum to Mr Louis Grange, I make reference to alleged criminal acts, on paragraph 1. Where I say,
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"The riots which occurred as a result of this, currently criminal acts are being investigated which include four murders, 30 robberies, 30 assaults, 9 malicious injury to property, one public violence and 9 charges of theft.  Four cabinet members, namely Skosana Ntuli, Minister Ngunutu."
Our policemen doubted this reference to Ngunutu but it stood as in the documents, and also Minister Nzweni are being 
implicated. This memorandum is being handed over to the Minister of Law and Order in the Republic of South Africa.  If I was the Minister of Law and Order, I would immediately ask the Commissioner of Police, "Are there enough investigating officers, top investigating officers to investigate these allegations against these top ministers, these cabinet ministers of this possible independent state?"
 There was no response from the Minister in spite of this of this information, which was on the 21st of February 1986, it was handed to him then.  The minister authorises the function of the police to the Kwandebele Government and to me, if it was to be a competent government to do something like this then, I do not know what government is all about.

THOMAS MANTHATA: General van Niekerk, on your memo on page 6 under the Mbokoto raids on Tweefontein, you state that on June 10, 1986 the State Security Council for Kwandebele had a meeting which was chaired by Brigadier Hans Muller, at which meeting the question of allowing Umbokoto to work with the police as endorsed.  Would you say that the subsequent raids into Tweefontein and the consequences of the people who were killed or injured and property destroyed, would you think that  Umbokoto felt that this endorsement justified MOUTSE  HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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this raid?