Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

MR BLACK: Now when you returned to Pietersburg, are you - you say that there never was any talk about Tokkie Fuchs having shot a wounded occupant of that vehicle.

J P VAN DEN BERG: No, that was never ever mentioned in my presence by Matthews or by any other person.

MR BLACK: But at a later stage was it mentioned to you by Matthews?

J P VAN DEN BERG: No. The first time that I came to hear of this, is as I testified just now.

MR BLACK: Is when?

J P VAN DEN BERG: When Col Erwee came from the investigating team of the Attorney-General in November.

MR BLACK: You see you say that at one stage, years you worked with Matthews, for years afterwards, and at a stage Matthews, if I may refer to that, that is Mr Sehlwana, said to you that a certain Mr De Lange had called him and said that you were in trouble, "we were in trouble", you and him.

J P VAN DEN BERG: I assumed that it wasn't just the two of us, but that it referred to the whole team who acted on that day, and that is why I contacted Col Erwee and told him about this.

MR BLACK: Did Matthews not elaborate and say what type of trouble or what De Lange, what De Lange was investigating?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Matthews told me that De Lange would take him on the next day to go and make certain pointings out at the scene and that I had to go with to the scene.  I told him that I was working and that I wouldn't go.

MR BLACK: But it would be pointless for you to go.  You were never at the scene anyway. Why would Matthews even suggest that?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I don't know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, Mr Black, so that I can be on the same page as you. I seem to be a little lost.  Was this conversation with Matthew about Mr De Lange and the pointing out, did that conversation take place in November, last year?  Is that what you are saying?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR BLACK: Thank  you, Ms Khampepe.  And are you aware of the fact that there was a tape-recording made of the incident?  Or during the course of the incident, of the shootings?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.  I am aware of that.

MR BLACK: Did you ever have occasion to listen to the tape recording?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, I did listen to the tape-recording.

MR BLACK: Was it at Pietersburg security offices?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I assume it was in Pietersburg, I can't say exactly.

MR BLACK: Was it some time after the incident?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes, it was quite some time after the incident.

MR BLACK: Sort of, you are talking about months or weeks?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I think a matter of weeks.

MR BLACK: And I just - Mr Van den Berg, did you know Mr Francois Jacobus van Zyl, who was working with the security branch?

J P VAN DEN BERG: Yes.

MR BLACK: And this morning I had discussed this with your legal representatives, and I just want to confirm, just for the record, that - because we didn't have ... If he testifies to the effect that some time during 1989 during winter time, he was travelling with you on the Alldays/Breslau Road, and you started to tell him and talk to him about this particular incident, of the Alldays shooting and that you told him that there were, what you call it, rehearsals or exercises which took place in order, before the operation, in order to ensure that it was successful.  Do you recall that?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I do remember that the two of us were driving in that area. We actually drove past that area and I mentioned to him that the shooting had taken place there. I can't remember that I told him about the rehearsals beforehand, because I was not aware of those rehearsals beforehand.

MR BLACK: Are you telling us now that during the planning stages and the plans that you had with Brig Coetsee, prior to this incident, this wasn't discussed?  This wasn't part of the plans, that there would be a rehearsal as to what and where - what Matthews was to do when - after he had stopped the Kombi and should there be trouble?

J P VAN DEN BERG: That was discussed, but at the scene
itself I only came to know on the day of the 10th exactly what happened.

MR BLACK: Yes, that's not the question.  You were aware of the - I am putting it to you that you must have been aware of the fact that they were going to rehearse as to what Matthews would do, after stopping the Kombi.  I understood from Brig Coetsee that this is all part of the planning, and that you were present.

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct.

MR BLACK: So it is not correct for you to say that you only became aware of this rehearsal, you weren't aware of it before the time.

J P VAN DEN BERG: As to the fact that there was to be a rehearsal or rehearsals, that I knew beforehand, but I didn't know where it would take place.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Black. The question asked, it doesn't matter really whether you knew that there was going to be a rehearsal or whether you were personally at the rehearsal. You might have heard about the rehearsal later or you might have been present when it was discussed.  And indeed, you might not have been present when the rehearsal took place, but that is not the question. The question is, did you tell Van Zyl that there was a rehearsal?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I told him what had happened there.  Whether I told him about any rehearsal, that I don't know, I can't remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that you could have told him?

J P VAN DEN BERG: It is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: So if he says you did tell him, you would not deny that?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I could not deny it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Black?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Van den Berg, I am sure you must have known about the rehearsals, even though you were not personally present during the rehearsals.  You were part of the initial planning, which led to the rehearsals taking place and you must have been told later by your colleagues when you discussed this matter fully, after the incident had taken place.

J P VAN DEN BERG: That is correct. I was aware of the rehearsal, exactly what form these would take and all exact details, that I was not aware of.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think Mr Black's point was that you were aware of the rehearsals. I think he is actually belabouring that point, particularly because you are saying you couldn't have known about the rehearsals because you were not there, and that is not the point which is at issue.  The point that is at issue, is whether you could have known about the rehearsals or not.

J P VAN DEN BERG: I could have known.

MR BLACK: Thank you.  Mr Van den Berg, I am just covering certain aspects about the evidence, if I may make it clear, which, if necessary, Mr Van Zyl will testify to.  He also mentions that you told him at a stage that you sat on the koppie and that you kept observation there, and you could see what was happening, and you saw that a Casspir vehicle stopped in front of the bus or the Kombi, and that Matthews, the driver jumped out and ran away. He first ran in the wrong direction.  Then he turned around and then he ran in the correct direction.  Thereafter there was shooting at the Kombi.  Could you have said that, would you have said that to him or is he just hearing this because it was part of the whole story, that people were generally talking about?

J P VAN DEN BERG: I would definitely have not told him that.  Because I was 12 kilometres away from the scene. I was in Botswana. There were mountains between us. He would have immediately have been able to realise that I was lying.

MR BLACK: You weren't lying if you told him these details, because that is in fact what happened.  In other words, perhaps I will concede ...

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, you have put it to the witness that Van Zyl would say he was sitting on the koppie and that he in fact saw the Casspir and saw the shooting.  So in fact he would be lying if he was 12 kilometres away.