Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: You didn't want the Youth League to have control of that point?

MR ARMOED: Yes, the SDU did not want these A and B entry and exit points to be controlled.

UNKNOWN: Block F, in terms of violence coming from that (indistinct)?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Because they were nearer to Zonke.

MR ARMOED: I did not see any reason, but they saw a need to do that.

UNKNOWN: Now, despite all these arrangements, is it true that on the surface, the Youth League was in fact patrolling the whole area?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And when the Youth League patrolled, planned to be in control of A to D, you did not cease as SDU to patrol that area, that is A to D?

MR ARMOED: No, we stopped patrolling, we did not patrol A to D, we stopped at C and F and D.

UNKNOWN: For how long did you cease to patrol A to D, or should I say did you resume to patrol that area?

MR ARMOED: We stopped patrolling that area, we continued patrolling C, A and B and F.

UNKNOWN: Can you come again, I'm confused, which areas did you continue now to patrol if you don't, if the Youth League was patrolling A to D?

MR ARMOED: The places at which we continued to patrol was F and C and D and E.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever patrol A and B again?

MR ARMOED: No, we didn't.

UNKNOWN: Why not?

MR ARMOED: Because the Youth League was the one patrolling those areas.

UNKNOWN: But they were also patrolling C, D and F?

MR ARMOED: Yes, yes, they were patrolling A and C and F.

UNKNOWN: So why didn't you stop patrolling C, D, I mean F, C, D and E?

MR ARMOED: We discovered that there was a problem there, because that's where the taxis would gather, that was a taxi rank, I suppose.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir.

MR MAPOMA: You say the deceased were killed because they were gangsters, and they killed Bulelwa and Blanko?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, Mrs Buthelezi, was she a gangster?

MR ARMOED: No, I don't know why she was killed.

MR MAPOMA: And you were present when she was killed?

MR ARMOED: No, I was not there, I was standing far away on the road.

MR MAPOMA: But those who killed her were from your company?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now on their way back, did they tell you why they killed her?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, does that question arise from the questions put by the committee?

MR MAPOMA: Well, chairperson, it arose from the reason why these people were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, yes.

MR MAPOMA: You have said that you didn't know how Vips was killed?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you only learnt on the 10th of December that in fact Vips was killed?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you were on guard of the youth in the shack, isn't it correct that Nthebo came?

MR ARMOED: Yes, Nthebo came.

MR MAPOMA: Isn't it correct that Nthebo reported that they have since killed Vips?

MR ARMOED: No, he did not report that to me.

MR MAPOMA: Jabulani Nkmalo will say that while they were kept in the shacks, no, I'm sorry, it's not Jabulani Nkmalo, chairperson if you can just bear with me?   Charles Mkwena will say that while they were still kept in the shack, Jabu came and reported that they have since killed Vips.

MR ARMOED: I don't know anything about that.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: When you, I understand that when you were issued with these firearms at the beginning of the patrol, the bullets were counted, is that right?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anyone count the bullets in your AK47 on the 7th of December 1993?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall how many were there, before the shooting?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were there?

MR ARMOED: Ten of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you use all those bullets on the deceased?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I used them all.

MR MALAN: Mr Armoed, you said that you knew Vips as the leader of the gangsters?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: The objective of the killing was to protect the community, and therefore you had to kill the gangsters, that was the order?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Was it not funny that the leader of the gangsters were not amongst them, didn't that strike you as strange?

MR ARMOED: No, it did not surprise me.

MR MALAN: Why?

MR ARMOED: Because Comrade Oscar did say that he saw them among the gangsters when they went to shoot and kill Comrade Blanko.

MR MALAN: Who did he say, that he saw them amongst the gangsters?

MR ARMOED: Yes, Comrade Oscar says he saw them among the gangsters who killed Bulelwa and that comrade was Comrade Vips.

MR MALAN: Let me rephrase my question.   My question is, Comrade Vips was seen amongst the gangsters, according to Comrade Oscar?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: When you eventually capture the gangsters and they are killed, Vips is not among them?

MR ARMOED: Yes, he is not there.

MR MALAN: Did you ask why?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I did ask, and they said he had gone, he had gone to Khumalo.

MR MALAN: Who did you ask?

MR ARMOED: I asked the very same boys, the gangsters.

MR MALAN: Did you take this up with any of your comrades in the SDU, did you ask any of them?

MR ARMOED: No, I did not.

MR MALAN: Would one not have expected that some of the members of the SDU would have said, "Well we have all these gangsters here, but where is their leader?"

MR ARMOED: No, we were not expecting that.

MR MALAN: Why not?

MR ARMOED: Because the leader of the gangsters had already fled to Khumalo section.

MR MALAN: Mr Armoed, you heard the evidence that Vips was brought with a kombi to the meeting, can you recall that?

MR ARMOED: Yes, I did hear that he was brought to the meeting in a kombi, but I did not see him.

MR MALAN: Now, you ask the boys about Vips, but you don't mention it to your comrades?

MR ARMOED: It is because I only heard later that Vips was there in a kombi, that time during which I was in the shack watching over the boys, and I was told that Vips was there in the meeting.

MR MALAN: So you never spoke to your comrades about the absence of Vips at the time that the other youngsters were kept in the shack through to the time that they were killed?

MR ARMOED: No, I did not.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The only comrade that you came across at the shack was Shongwe, who you had asked to look after the boys whilst you had gone to the toilet, right?

MR ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, is there anything that you want to canvass further?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, thank you, Mr Armoed, you may return to your seat.   Yes, Mr Madasa?
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, if you may recall yesterday, you requested that we make a list of people who were captured during the attack.   I have some names in front of me here.  I don't know if I'm ..(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.   Is that the list of persons whom the applicants admit having abducted?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you read the list into the record please?

UNKNOWN: Firstly, a list of the victims are obviously people who were also captured by the applicants, except for Julia Buthelezi, Bullewa Zwane, that is except for deceased No 1 and 3.   And then, in addition to that list are the following:  Tusanang Lukabe, Mtabang Lukwena, Jabu Ngdoese, Vuyani ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: But also known as Jabu Nkmalo?

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes.   Jan Tshabalala, Henry Nkamalo, Olf Zenamavu.   Mr Chair, I wish to point out that this list are the names of people the applicants were able to recall, it doesn't mean there could be no other people which they left out and so on.