Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Sir, the fact that there were people who were instructed or deployed, that was not my concern, I have told you my position, what my position was at the time.  If somebody else had told you something else, that is not my business.

MR HUGO: Can I ...(intervention)

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not dispute that and I do not see a reason for you to tell me that who was deployed where and I cannot dispute that either.

MR HUGO: Can I just - it's something that I've forgotten to ask you about.  The AK47, where did that come from?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know where it came from.

MR HUGO: It wasn't with you in the vehicle when you came down with Mr de Kock, was it?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I could not search Mr de Kock's car, I was just driving.  I am not sure whether it was there or not.  I don't even know what was in Mr de Kock's car.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Now ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: You said that various groups were deployed, working in various regions.  Can I just follow up on that and ask, what task did you have to fulfil in Durban during those few days you were there?  What was your task?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I had joined Radebe, I was with Radebe working at the stations, Umlazi and the other places in the township.  I was with them.

ADV DE JAGER: What did you have to do, what was your duty?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was doing the job, working with the askaris at the stations, at the taxi rank to try and identify the former members of MK.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you accompany him into Chesterville on any specific time?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I do not remember going to Chesterville, I remember Umlazi.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you under Radebe's instruction all the time?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, not under Radebe, but under Nortje because Nortje was the commander of that particular unit that Radebe belonged to, up until such time that we left Durban with Mr de Kock.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you together with Sgt Radebe all the time, were you in the same group with him?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR HUGO: And Mr Nofomela, if you were now in the same group with Mr Radebe, and I take it then you were going with Mr Radebe to these various places, stations, taxi ranks, etc., etc., is that right?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And how did you get to the taxi rank and the station from CR Swart Police Station?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: We would walk to those places, walk to the station or sometimes we would use a car.

MR HUGO: And who was then Mr de Kock's driver whilst you were going to the station and various other places?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Let me tell you how this works.  When you move from here to Pretoria, if you have moved from Pretoria to de Kock - with de Kock to somewhere else and then when he gets to that particular place he would join the other white people and then he would join a certain group and he would do that and you don't have to drive him around in that particular place, you would only be with him when you are going back to Pretoria.  That was the case.

MR HUGO: Look let me just ask you now, we'll get to that a little bit later.  How did Mr de Kock get to Chesterville, to the bridge the evening of the incident, who was his driver then?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I think that was Nortje, because I saw Nortje's car and the other car I do not know to whom that car belonged to.  There were two or three cars.  I think mine was a third car if I'm not mistaken, probably he was in Mr Nortje's company and driving in his car.

MR HUGO: But why do you say "probably", you're so sure that Mr de Kock ...(intervention)

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: There were two cars, I was not sure which car was he in.  There were two cars that were used by the white officers, I'm not sure which car was it.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Mention the names of the people that were in these cars, at the bridge.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said I cannot remember the other white people's names.

MR HUGO: But why not, Mr Nofomela, you are absolutely certain and convinced of it that Mr de Kock was there, why can't you remember the other names?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: The fact that he was present, I am convinced that he was present, that doesn't remind me the names of the other people who were also present.

MR HUGO: And Mr Nortje, was he present?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, he was.

MR HUGO: And Mr McCarter?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not remember, perhaps he was there present, but I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: Mr Vermeulen?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: But I don't understand that.  Mr Vermeulen sits here right next to you, can't you remember whether he was there or not?  This man that sits here on your left-hand side.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Do you want to tell me that he had the same looks, even in 1986?

MR HUGO: Mr Nofomela, can you remember whether the man sitting next to you was at the bridge during the night of the incident?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not remember, Sir.

MR HUGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Snor Vermeulen sitting next to you?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, he is the one, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Nofomela, did you recognise him when you sat there for the first time or are you now - only now that you are recognising him?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I kept on looking at him, but now I can see that he is - this is the one.

MR SIBANYONI: Before you were not sure that he is the one?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I was not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he wearing a full beard in 1986?  He's got a full beard now.  Did the police wear those beards in '86?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Some of them were wearing beards and some of them were still tiny or younger.  I cannot remember their names because they were not people who were close to me, therefore, I had a problem of identifying them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Nofomela, when the initial instruction was given on your version, by Mr de Kock that these people were going to be killed, just tell us again, where did this take place?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was with him, Mr de Kock that is, as I said I had moved with him from Pretoria.  He called me and I went to him and he told me that I am not to be involved there, I was just going to provide them with transport up to the bridge at that time and those people were going to shoot the people there at Chesterville.  Therefore he told me that myself and Geoffrey Bosigo are not to be involved there because we were to be involved in another mission.  That was the instruction.

MR HUGO: Yes, but when you heard about this shooting that was going to take place for the first time, did Mr de Kock call you aside to tell you this is what's going to happen or were you in a room whilst he was discussing it with other people?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said he called me specifically and he told me about that.  When he was telling the other people that they were going to kill the people, I was not present there.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Now I know Mr Cornelius has asked you about that and I think the Chairman has also asked you about that, but I'm still confused as to what your answer is as to why Mr de Kock didn't want you to co-operate - or participate in this operation.  Was he trying to protect you, is that what your evidence is?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Trying to protect me against what?

MR HUGO: Well that's what I'm confused about, Mr Nofomela.  Why didn't Mr de Kock want you to partake in this operation, you were an experienced operator at the time?