Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 2000-05-08

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Do you agree with me that you are just talking about a loose assembly of people and not the Mavhunga  Youth Congress, because it had no official existence?

CHAIRPERSON: In fairness to the witness, all the evidence has been thus far that look, they were preparing to launch this and a number of them in fact referred to it as the Youth Congress when in fact strictly speaking, it could not have been so because it had not been launched yet.  Perhaps we must bear that in mind, when we pose that question, the context in which he refers to the Youth Congress.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I am perhaps not sure, perhaps the Chairman can assist me in rephrasing my question then.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr  Makatu, when you talk about the Youth Congress of Mavhunga, are you talking about this group of youths that were preparing to launch and form the Mavhunga Youth Congress?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, it is correct.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will accept that.  Mr Makatu, do you agree also that this let's call it, this loose affiliation or organisation or whatever, it was not at that time, at the time when the deceased was in fact killed, that body, that organisation, was not affiliated or associated with any specific political party or organisation, do you agree with that statement?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any intention to do so?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, there was that intention, that our Youth Congress will affiliate to the ANC.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  What was your own, individual involvement in politics at the time when the deceased was killed?

JOHANNES MAKATU: What I am saying is that of the Youth Congress, I participated in that Youth Congress and there is nothing more.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Who was the Chairman or the leader of this Youth Congress as you call it?

JOHANNES MAKATU: By then it was Mr Nsondeni Muhadi.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Just say his name slowly please, the Chairman's name, just repeat that slowly please.

JOHANNES MAKATU: Nsondeni.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And his surname?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Muhadi.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was this Muhadi present on the day when the deceased was killed?

JOHANNES MAKATU: On that day he was not present.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Where was he?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I am not sure, I've got no idea.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was he at the meeting beforehand?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, the mother or the wife of the deceased, testified last time, was she not assisted by her two sons?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I would say that she was in fact assisted.

INTERPRETER: Yes, she was assisted.

CHAIRPERSON: Is one of them the person who gave you these new instructions?

MR VAN RENSBURG: If you talk about new instructions, meaning that I can put it to this witness specifically that the Mavhunga Youth Congress does not exist?  Yes, indeed.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  I think I've lost my last question.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You asked whether Mr Muhadi was present at the meeting.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Can I repeat the question, the question is was this Mr Muhadi present at the meeting before you proceeded to the deceased's house?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I have said no.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, may I just get instructions on one point quickly, thank you.    Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions to this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any re-examination?

MR NDOU: None, Honourable Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU

JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps this, Mr Ndou, would be more for argument, but I want to put it to your witness.  At the time, did you act on behalf of a publicly known political organisation?  If you cannot understand the legal consequences, you could leave it to your representative to argue it.  I know it is more a legal question than a factual question.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I can help.  This grouping of youth in Mavhunga Village which intended to be launched as a Congress, was that known in the Village to exist?  Did everybody in the Village know about this group?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, it was known.

CHAIRPERSON: And everybody knew what it stood for, or most people knew what it stood for, I am asking?

JOHANNES MAKATU: I am not sure if other people were in the know of what it stands for, but what I know whenever people were called to attend the Youth Congress meetings, they used to come in numbers.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about the  youth themselves, we are talking about the public, the rest of the villagers.  Did they know that the Youth Congress as you put it, was intended to be launched, it had every intention to canvass in whichever way it chose to be reincorporated into South Africa and that it was seeking the downfall of the Venda government?

JOHANNES MAKATU: Yes, it was known by the public in general.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?  Mr Ndou, I just want to point out to you that we are not exactly sure for which offences this applicant intends to apply.  We don't want you to commit yourself now, but at the end of the hearing, we would want you to list whatever he is applying for.
WITNESS EXCUSED