Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

JUDGE WILSON: You have just agreed that he at a meeting - at a meeting attended by you and him, you were given clear directions to conduct attacks in Cape Town.  You've just told us, you cannot dispute it - you admit it.  I find difficulty in reconciling the two versions, that one moment you say you didn't see him before you came to Cape Town and now you say you were at a meeting - he was at a meeting where you were directed to go to Cape Town and conduct attacks.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I did not hear clearly, I would like to communicate to you that that paragraph be read again - when I admitted to it, I did not hear clearly.

JUDGE WILSON: You admitted to it without any hesitation, you didn't ask for it to be read again but now when it's embarrassing you say you don't know, you didn't hear it.  Is that what you're now saying?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he ...[intervention]  Give ...[intervention]

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Give him a copy.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, I did not understand clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that - let him read that paragraph, give him a copy of it and let him read it before we ask him any further questions.  Have you got a copy of the statement of Mr Xuma?  Just have a look - can you hand this to the witness and let him read it.
	You can read English?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I will read it - can somebody read it out for me please?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand it?  Have you read it?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I would like somebody to read it for me because I don't understand English clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry.  Will the interpreter please read it to him slowly?

ADV SANDI: Are you reading this paragraph for the applicant?

INTERPRETER: Yes, we've begun reading the paragraph.

MR PRIOR: Sorry Mr Chairman, there's no sound coming through.

INTERPRETER: We are reading the paragraph in Xhosa, we are interpreting the paragraph to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

INTERPRETER: We have finished reading the paragraph for the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with the contents of that paragraph?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, I agree with it.

CHAIRPERSON: If you agree with it's contents, then it is being put to you that the evidence you are giving does not coincide with that paragraph so we are having a contradiction in your evidence and you are being questioned about that.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, please repeat that, what evidence of mine are you talking about that is contradictory to this paragraph?

JUDGE WILSON: You said you did not see Xuma before you went to Cape Town.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I would like to put this this way, I saw Nonuba before I came to Cape Town, he took us to our transportation - I saw Nonuba.

JUDGE WILSON: You have just said you agree with this paragraph where Mr Xuma says that at an order group - that he attended an order group with comrade Nonuba where Madasi, Gqomfa and Mabala were present, you've said you agree with that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: That's where you were given orders to go and conduct attacks in Cape Town.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, please repeat that.

JUDGE WILSON: The paragraph has been read to you where Mr Xuma says
"Madasi who happened to be Unit Commander, Gqomfa and Mabala in an order group attended by myself and the late comrade Nonuba, were given clear and loud orders to conduct attacks in Cape Town"
You say you agree with that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Correct, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Well how can you say you did not see him before you went to Cape Town?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, when I was coming this way I was focused on the matter that we're about, I saw Mr Xuma.  You must remember that this happened a long time ago, I cannot remember every detail.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt Judge Wilson if he's going to ask,  I was trying to help.  If we could maybe just find out from Mr Mabala when he saw Xuma - he's admitted that he saw him, he was at a meeting, can we just hear from him when that meeting took place and how shortly before he left for Cape Town did this meeting take place.

CHAIRPERSON: Right now - you will have an opportunity to re-examine him, I think he should be questioned, let him answer the questions that are put to him.
	May I ask you a question, I'm told - I read here from this paragraph that Mr Xuma says that on that occasion when you were together he gave orders that you should go to Cape Town, is that correct?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think you better just proceed with the rest of your cross-examination.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Did you ask perhaps at that occasion what these attacks were going to be or what targets were going to be attacked?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I did not ask, I did not know who the targets were - I could not ask any questions.

MR PRIOR: Did anybody ask what the attacks or who the attacks, sorry - against whom the attacks were going to be launched?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: If an order from a commander is stipulated, one should just obey the order.

MR PRIOR: Is it not also correct that in terms of APLA policy, cadres could participate and ask questions regarding directives or orders that effected their safety or security or welfare?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: If there's an order saying that you should go to a specific place, you just go to that place.

MR PRIOR: Were you unaware that there was such a policy ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I think he didn't ask any questions and that's that isn't it?

MR PRIOR: Well, we're testing whether that's in fact true, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Whether he's aware of policies or not, he didn't ask questions.

ADV SANDI: Can I also try and help here Mr Prior?  I think as I understand the applicant, he says there was this general order that some operations were to be conducted in Cape Town and they didn't ask for details of targets, where etc., this was just an order to be complied with.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I don't want to engage in an unnecessary debate, the enquiry is simply whether that in fact is true or not and that's part of the enquiry of full disclosure.  I'm going to suggest later on why that's improbable if I be given an opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PRIOR: When you arrived in Cape Town, did you see any of your comrades that participated in the attack?  In other words, did you stay with them or any of them?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I saw then.

MR PRIOR: Who?  Can you just tell us who they were?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I saw Luyanda, Maxeba and Jantjie.

MR PRIOR: And you were all on friendly terms, is that correct?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: These are my comrades.

MR PRIOR: And was there any discussion at that stage whether - what the targets were going to be?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Were you not interested to find out where you were going to fight, who you were going to fight?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I'm a soldier, I anticipate and am always waiting for orders from my commander.

MR PRIOR: On the evening in question, what were your orders specifically?  What were you supposed to do when you got to Heidelberg, that is Heidelberg Tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I was supposed to launch a grenade.

MR PRIOR: Is that all?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Correct.

MR PRIOR: Is in not correct that you were also armed with an AK47?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: AK47?

MR PRIOR: Yes, an AK47, were you not armed with such a weapon?

INTERPRETER: Could Mr Prior wait for the interpretation please.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I had a grenade with me, that's the order that was given - I was supposed to launch the grenade.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you armed with an AK47?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I only had a grenade.

MR PRIOR: I put that to you because I seem to have a note of Mr Gqomfa's evidence saying that you had an AK47.

NORMAN ARENDSE: That's wrong Mr Chairman, there's no such evidence.