Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-09

RONNIE KASRILS: Yes.  Sorry advocate, that part of your question I agree with.  That's what I am basically saying in my statement when I say just imagine what they fed into the minds of the foot soldiers who pulled the trigger.  That is one thing that comes to mind.
 Another thing is the discussion you were having here this evening about the soldier who was shot in the back of the head, Smuts Ngonyama's type of theories, is it possible that there were some elements who deliberately wanted to shoot one of the soldiers so that there would be panic, and they would all feel that they were under attack and excite them even more in terms of the massacre because I think it is possible that some elements, perhaps at command level or conniving with Gqozo, might have considered the provocation of a massacre here irrespective of where we were deployed, would have given the chance to teach us a damn good lesson.
 I haven't elaborated on that in my statement because I think this is a task for you and for any inquiry but I think it certainly is a line of inquiry to follow.  I do say that perhaps it was sheer negligence and on that basis we were able to come through and then there was some pandemonium and the soldiers shot because they had been programmed, and I think when you put questions to the Defence Force people, those seconded officers from the SADF like Marius Oelschig and others, they will be able to tell you exactly what was the deployment plans on the day and on the ground.  I do know what they were because I've asked them but I don't want to come and tell you second-hand and I'm not sure as to whether what they have told me is true either.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?  Yes Ntsike?

UNKNOWN: Mr Kasrils, as the Deputy Minister of Defence, are you able to say to this Commission what kind of changes your ministry is introducing in terms of changing the content of military education and training?

RONNIE KASRILS: A great deal, Advocate Sandi.  Minister Modisi's whole approach is that the defence force must be fully transformed, must become representative of our people.  It must be a force that defends and protects our people, our territory, our sovereignty and co-operates in peace with our neighbours.  To change the mind-set of soldiers can't be done overnight and bear in mind that we have a mixture at present, MK, APLA, TBVC former SADF and we have now taken in some former members of the KwaZulu structures.  It is eight elements.
 We are moulding them into one common South African National Defence Force so a real home for all of them, in the process the whole ethos must change.  They have to be educated for democracy, for civil rights, for international law on conflict and we have a civic education work group which isn't the military experts.  We have academics, we have people from civil society, we have got parliamentarians together with military personnel, working out a whole new syllabus, a whole new approach.  That is one element and obviously the educational factor is very important indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Deputy Minister, I want to express on our behalf again our appreciation and thanks that you had the humility to sit through until this time.  I mean we are very grateful and in some ways we hope it is also an indication of the kind of ethos that is being established in our country, whatever, we still would like you to know that we are very grateful that you were willing to, and Mrs Kasrils as well, she sat through until this time.  It is quite unusual, I mean, we would have finished about 5 o'clock, it is two hours after that because we thought it was important to try and cover as much as possible today. 
 I have been told by our regional office in East London that you have been wonderful in co-operating with them and they would like on their own behalf to express appreciation and thanks for the help that you have been, first of all that you were yourself enthusiastic about coming.  You say it is the first sort of platform that you have had to explain your side of things but whatever your motivation, it is important for us that someone in your position was as enthusiastic as you turned out to be and they also want to say thank you for facilitating contacts that they had wanted with various members of your force whom they would have wanted to invite to come to the Commission and we are aware of your own commitment to this process that we are asked to encourage promoting national unity and reconciliation and we just want to say thank you very much.
 Thank you.  Who has asked you, who has asked you to clap hands?  I think actually I mean that in, except for one or two of you, I'll ask the police to detain you, not to go out but I should thank you, the technicians, we don't always acknowledge you.  Could you clap hands for the technicians please.  You also behaved well, give yourself an applause.  We are adjourning I hope until 9 o'clock.  We will try to start on time.  Thank you very much.
 ... end of Tape 9, side B ...