Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's ...(indistinct) Mr Chairman, it's not necessary that Mr Chairman I'm saying I would have done that had I been in a position, put in that position before, I would have done that.
	Finally Mr De Castro is it true that there was a march after that incident?

MR P DE CASTRO: I wouldn't know.  I wouldn't know because after the shooting I was away for almost two weeks, out of town and the business was closed as well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR STEENKAMP: No re-examination thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP

MR MALAN: Mr De Castro there is just on aspect that I would
like to follow up with you (transcribers translation), Mr Steenkamp in his cross questioning of the applicants informed us that there'd be evidence that the people who were shot, that's the victims, first they had to lie down, he did not follow this up with you, but you said that when you got back after you left, you found the people who were dead and injured lying in the places they were.  Do you have any indication that they were lying down when they were shot at, or where would Mr Steenkamp have got this statement from?

MR P DE CASTRO: When I fled the supermarket the people were still standing up with their arms in the air against boxes of tomatoes and apples, so I wouldn't be in a position to testify whether they were shot lying down or standing up.

MR MALAN: So you've got no information that first they were made to lie down, nobody told you anything like that?

MR P DE CASTRO: When I returned to the shop the people were all lying down, but I mean I don't have any information about that.

MR MALAN: No but Mr De Castro the people were dead and heavily injured, they couldn't take care of themselves, it's assumed that they would be lying down?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes they were lying down ja.

MR MALAN: Ja, but you have no information that they were made to lie down before they were shot?

MR P DE CASTRO: No I've never asked anybody about that.

MR MALAN: Okay.  Mr Steenkamp if you've got evidence concerning this you must say this to us.  Then we must assume that it is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible).

MR MALAN: But you said that no one told you that they were made to lie down before they were shot?

MR P DE CASTRO: You see I wasn't present when the people were actually shot.

MR MALAN: No that's not my question Mr De Castro.  My question is whether anyone informed you as to whether they were made to lie down or not?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes some of them was standing up and some of them was lying down on the floor.  Some of them was shot while they were lying down on the floor of the shop.

MR MALAN: My question is whether they were made to lie down.  Did you get any such information from any of the victims?

MR P DE CASTRO: Uh okay, yes some of them were made to lie down.

MR MALAN: You have such information?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes I do.

MR MALAN: Who did you get that from?

MR P DE CASTRO: From Susan and Henk Viljoen.

MR MALAN: But not all of them were made to lie down?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well I ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: From your information and we know this is hearsay?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well some of them was standing up and some of them was lying down, that's my information from the people that was there.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr De Castro.

CHAIRPERSON: One point and I don't think it's, it may be of no relevance.  Somewhere I have read that in addition to this being a Saturday, it was also pension day and there would have accordingly been a lot more customers that day.  Is that the position or can't you say?

MR P DE CASTRO: No that wasn't a pension day, it was end of the month because what happens in a country town, a country-side town is most of the people work at the farms and if the last day of the month ends up in the middle of the week then the people will actually get paid on a Friday and Saturday end of the month and they all come to town and that was the day that everybody came to town to do shopping.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman the last witness I'm calling is Joao Avaleno De Castro.  He's present and I can call him.

CHAIRPERSON: Can he come up on - led again by what I've read, is he fit to come up to give evidence.  Has he recovered sufficiently?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman I see it's eleven o'clock, I don't know if we can take maybe five minutes I just want to see.  He is present I spoke to him this morning, ...(indistinct) to be here but I'm sure he's ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Physically, wasn't the information that he had been ... (intervention)

MR STEENKAMP: He was shot Mr Chairman, he ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible).

MR STEENKAMP: That's correct Mr Chairman but he is able to walk.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible).

MR STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Castro do you have any problems in standing?  Do you mind taking the oath.

JOAO AVALENO DE CASTRO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  What are your full names please?

MR J DE CASTRO: Joao Avaleno De Castro.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman there is a statement of Mr De Castro in front of you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible).

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable members.  Mr De Castro you are the brother of the previous witness, Mr Pedro De Castro, am I right?

MR J DE CASTRO: Right.

MR STEENKAMP: At the time of the incident you were also the co-owner with your brother of the Wesselsbron Supermarket, am I right?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Just before we start can you just indicate to the Committee how were your family affected by this incident.  We know you were injured, anybody else?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well you know it affected my life totally.  I'm at this stage, you can say I'm, I can't do what I could do before this incident.  You know I've only got the full operation of one of my legs, my one foot is totally unfunctional, you know so it's totally changed my whole life and same with my in-laws as well you know, it's affected them terribly.  You know they lost their loved ones you know.  I mean that's the worst that can happen to a person in life if you've got to lose a loved one you know.  You know it's changed our whole, you know family's now sort of you know, we are not together anymore like we used to be you know, and everything has changed you know.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr De Castro at the day of the incident, at the night of the incident am I right in saying you were present in the shop?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes I was.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman maybe I'm leading the witness too much, but just to save time.  Am I right in saying you were located in front of the shop?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Am I also right in saying you were present when the attackers entered the shop, am I right?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes I was.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just briefly tell the Committee what did you see happening inside the shop?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well it was on a Saturday, 3 July 1993 approximately between quarter to nine and nine o'clock and ... (intervention)

MR STEENKAMP: Mr De Castro sorry, can you just maybe speak a bit slower for the translator.  Thank you.

MR J DE CASTRO: Sure.  Well I had some of my family members over at my house.  I had moved from the one house to another house the previous day and the whole family was there by me to help me to move and that's actually the reason why you know, they were at the shop at that present time.  So actually in the afternoon I went home and we were watching the rugby on TV and then I came back to the shop and I told them: "Listen I'm closing round about half past eight, nine o'clock, you guys must make a plan and then we'll all walk out together".  So that's what we did they, my in-laws, the victims ... (intervention)

MR STEENKAMP: Can you just tell the Committee who were your in-laws?