Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, as far as that was concerned, the ANC was seen as the umbrella body for MK and the instructions that were given to MK were consistent.  There was no conflict created by either of the organisations.

MR RICHARD: And to go back to my proposition, it means that the South African Communist Party having the objectives of a communist party at that time, had no difficulty in sharing the objectives of the ANC and vice versa?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, Mr Chairperson, I think when you say vice versa, if you are talking a very broad political sense, if you are trying to make out that the ANC is now, ascribes to the same objectives as the SACP, I think you know, there are differences as far as they have in terms of political views and what they ascribe to, but I cannot see how that, those political views affect these hearings.  Because when it came to the question of MK, they were at one about it.

MR RICHARD: And therefore when it is said in your application that you pursued various political objectives, you were pursuing those of the joint objectives of the ANC and the SACP at that time, I am not talking about the present?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, then during the period 1978 to 1979 you describe yourself as a Zonal Co-ordinator of the South African Communist Party at the Funda Camp, what was a Zonal Co-ordinator?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, basically I was appointed by the SACP to look at the activities of the cells in the camps and to advise on, to recruit other people into the SACP, to ensure that there were political discussions amongst the cells of the SACP inside of the camp.

MR RICHARD: And that progresses to 1992, sorry 1982 to 1984, when you became part of the Regional Committee of the SACP?  Would that mean you would in addition to performing the functions you have just outlined, assumed other functions as well?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, this was in a different area, this was in Maputo and there the responsibilities were to look at the overall functioning of the different cells of the SACP in Maputo and basically, to guide, to have discussions, to ensure that the cells functioned.

MR RICHARD: Now, within the South African Communist Party, in relation to the then Joe Slovo, Commander of MK, where did you fit into the hierarchy, how many levels were there between you and him?  I want to cut it down to the minimum number of questions.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: With regards to the SACP you are talking about?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, he was on the Polit Bureau and the Central Committee, the next level down were the Regional Committees and then it went down to Zonal Committees and cells.

MR RICHARD: So, again for the sake of brevity and if I am compressing it, and overly compressing it, please say so, there would have been regular and direct communication between you and him?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, as a matter of fact Chairperson, I worked very closely with comrade Joe Slovo.   I in my capacity as Commissar of Special Operations and he as Commander of Special Operations, worked together and we met whenever I was in Maputo, almost on a daily basis.

MR RICHARD: Now, it then moves on to the next topic, where again I will be as brief as I can, there are various references to various matters made in the First and Second Submissions made by the ANC to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, were you a party to the authoring of those submissions?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.  I have been asked to put together some parts of it, in relation to Special Operations and other parts, those drafts had been given to the ANC and that was then put together by other members of a Drafting Committee.

MR RICHARD: And indeed, your level of involvement may be outlined by the fact that when the Truth and Reconciliation Commission held the Armed Forces Hearing in Cape Town, you were a participant in those hearings?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, that is so.

MR RICHARD: And - so that means it follows that when it comes to matters mentioned in those various documents that I have just referred to, that is the First and Second Submissions of the Armed Forces transcript, you indeed had as good a working knowledge of the facts behind those submissions and documents as any other in relation to the areas where you contributed?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, I think they had reasonable knowledge of it.  At later stage when the documents were being finalised, I wasn't always present because I had my normal work that I did.

MR RICHARD: Do you have available to you copies of the written submissions that I have outlined?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now, before I start referring to page numbers, is yours the bound and published rendition of the document, or a copy of the document as printed off the internet site run by the TRC?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: The bound copy.

MR RICHARD: I will try my best, I have the internet version, so that means our page numbers will not correspond.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, I apologise for the interjection, Mr Chairperson, I for one don't have any copies of any of these documents and therefore do not follow the questioning.   My learned colleague Ms Kooverjee raised it unfortunately with Mr Berger, but he did not have any additional copies.  I don't think he is obliged to give us copies.   So subject to that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think if you can keep notes of the references, etc, we can see if we can get copies and make them available.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Sorry, I apologise, I think it was Mr Berger's Instructing Attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, proceed.  I don't know how we are going to get across the problem with different page numbers, but let us try our best.

MR RICHARD: I have experienced it before, that is why I asked the various questions.  If one turns to what I believe should be the third page of the written Second Submission, it is under the section headed "Manifesto - Nature of the South African Conflict" and where it will be on the page, I have no idea, but it is the paragraph which reads
"... in its conduct of armed struggle, the ANC sought to avoid civilian injury and loss of life."

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Richard, can you just hold on, we just trying to locate the passage that you have referred to.

CHAIRPERSON: It is page 4, it is the submission dated the 12th of May 1997, the green one, page 4 and on the right hand side of the page, right in the middle - "in its conduct of the armed struggle ..."

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I see it, yes.

MR RICHARD: Have you found the section?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I will read it for the benefit of the record again
"... in its conduct of armed struggle, the ANC sought to avoid civilian injury and loss of life.  It ensured that its combatants understood the reasons behind the armed struggle as well as the factors required to win to our side the overwhelming majority of South Africans."
	Now, that quote could be said and again, if I over-summarise it, correct me, to be the bottom line of the instructions, the education and the philosophy that you wished to infiltrate into both the non-combatant and combatant members of the ANC and the SACP, in short?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Sorry the question, I thought you were making a statement.

MR RICHARD: Is that in short the encapsulated essence of what the education and instructional object of the instructions given to you Forces and members, was?