Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   I can't remember that.  And when you were asked by Mr Maritz you said you didn't know why you and Joe Mamasela were not given knives, and that Sergeant Schutte joked with you and said, "Do you think you're going to kill a cow?"  Do you remember this incident?   ---   No, I can hardly remember that.

WILSON J: Well, can you remember it at all?  Can you remember giving that evidence and being asked about it?  Did you give such evidence ... (inaudible) ... record available.  This was at the Harms Commission in London.  You did give evidence in London, didn't you?

WITNESS:   Yes, I believe that.

WILSON J: Do you remember the incident?

WITNESS:   No, I cannot remember that.

WILSON J: (Inaudible) ... second one I wanted to ask you about.  You've told us that there was considerable fighting, that Mr Mxenge was stabbed, he pulled the knife out, he fought longer.  There must have been blood all over the place, do you agree?

WITNESS:   Yes, I believe.

WILSON J: And yet you were asked apparently, again at the

WILSON J: /Harms

WILSON J: Harms Commission in London, to explain why the inquest had found no signs of blood on Mr Mxenge's trousers.  That there had been blood on his underpants, but no blood on his trousers.  Do you remember being asked about that?

WITNESS:   I can't remember that either.

WILSON J: That again is reported in several places.  That again was when you were being questioned by Mr Maritz.  Do you remember Mr Maritz questioning you?

WITNESS:   I can't remember.

WILSON J: (Inaudible) ... the advocate who appeared for the police.  I think you would have remembered him.  You say you don't remember, so we'll have to get those records and check on the truth of that.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Tshikalanga, you have repeatedly denied having see anyone slitting Mr Mxenge's throat when you were being questioned by Advocate Mshe.  During the Harms Commission you categorically stated that you saw Mr Nofomela on top of Mr Mxenge, holding a knife to his throat, at which point you turned away.  Do you remember saying that?

WITNESS:   Yes, I can believe that I said that.

UNKNOWN: So you in fact know how Mr Mxenge's throat was slit open.

WITNESS:   Yes, that - you see, this is - well, when I had to narrate that it was not a long time, in such a way that I had - it's so dreadful that sometimes I used to get worried considerably, in such a way that I couldn't just say what happened because it was difficult.

UNKNOWN: Mr Tshikalanga, we must remind you that one of the cardinal requirements of you being granted amnesty is that you must be open to this Committee and disclose the truth, and nothing else but that.

WITNESS:   Yes, I am trying to say whatever is true, although there might be other things

UNKNOWN: /that I

UNKNOWN: that I have forgotten there and there.  However, I am trying to put facts together truthfully.

MR MARAIS: I have no re-examination, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right.  Thank you very much, you are excused.

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, if my memory is my good servant, and it is, Mr Chairman, Advocate Skweyiya had made a request that Mr Dirk Coetzee be recalled.  I think this would be an apposite time, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Let it be entered on the record that at this stage Mr Skweyiya appears on behalf of the Mxenge family, assisted by Mr Moosa.

MR SKWEYIYA: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman, as well as the Khondile family.

CHAIRPERSON: As well as the Khondile family.

MR SKWEYIYA: Together with my learned junior, Mr Moosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Let Mr Coetzee come back.
/DIRK JOHANNES
DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE   (Recalled)  (Still under former oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Skweyiya.

MR SKWEYIYA: Yes, thank you for the indulgence.

MR SKWEYIYA: QUESTIONED BY MR SKWEYIYA

MR SKWEYIYA: Mr Coetzee, I've asked for you to be recalled just for you to clarify one or two aspects.  You say that when you arrived in Durban you met Brigadier van der Hoven, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct.  I reported to him, Mr Chairman.

MR SKWEYIYA: He then briefed you about the deceased, Mxenge.

WITNESS:   After a few days that we've been working here, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR SKWEYIYA: Now, I presume that in briefing you he told you what investigations they had done on Mxenge.

WITNESS:   In very, very brief, just what I need to know, as I've explained the need to know chain work, and he gave me the information that I need to know for that specific operation.

MR SKWEYIYA: And from that briefing you gathered that the police had no evidence on which they could charge Mxenge, am I correct?

WITNESS:   The specific report, as far as I can remember, Mr Chairman, was that they're busy trying to build up a case against him as far as him receiving money from outside the country for acting - for being acting lawyer for the cadres of the African National Congress that was caught whilst infiltrating the country.

MR SKWEYIYA: No, my question is ... (intervention)

WILSON J: Was that alleged to be an offence, receiving money to defend people?

WITNESS:   I don't know to what extent.  Whether the money has come from the ANC, it was

WILSON J: /seen as a

WILSON J: seen as a supporter of the ANC.  To what exact extent I can't say, Mr Chairman.

MR SKWEYIYA: No, no, Mr Coetzee, my question relates to whether it was conveyed to you by the brigadier that they had no tangible evidence as at that stage ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   No, it was not ... (incomplete)

MR SKWEYIYA: ... to charge him.

WITNESS:   It was not conveyed in such specific terms, Mr Chairman.  They were busy building up a case against him, and I presume it would have made it easier for them to just get rid of Mr Mxenge.

MR SKWEYIYA: Did he convey to you that there was difficulty in building up a case against him, and for that reason it was better to get rid of him?

WITNESS:   Yes, they were working on a case, "But why don't you make a plan with Mr Mxenge."  He didn't say, "Because we will not succeed," or went into a deep conversation about it, just in short that.

MR SKWEYIYA: Now, are you aware that shortly before you met the brigadier and he gave this briefing to you that the deceased, Mr Mxenge, had in fact been called for interrogation at C R Swart Square?

WITNESS:   I was not aware of it at that time.  I read about it in the newspapers apparently as a result of a report from Mrs Mxenge.

MR SKWEYIYA: Do you accept that in fact Mr Mxenge was called and questioned a few days before his death, and he was allowed to go away?

WITNESS:   I will accept that that was the facts, although I haven't had at the time any knowledge about it.

MR SKWEYIYA: Now, another aspect, Mr Coetzee, on which I want clarification, relates to Brian Ngulungwa, Tshikalanga, as well as Mamasela.  At the time that you were the - between the time that you became the commander at Vlakplaas and up to the time that Mxenge was killed, who of these persons

MR SKWEYIYA: /was a policemen

MR SKWEYIYA: was a policeman in the employment of the South African - the then South African Government?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman?  Can you just repeat it?

MR SKWEYIYA: At the time that you became the commander of Vlakplaas, up to the stage that Griffiths Mxenge was killed, who of the four persons I am going to mention, namely Nofomela, Brian Ngulungwa, Tshikalanga and Mamasela, were officially in the employment of the South African Government?

WITNESS:   Tshikalanga was a student constable.

MR SKWEYIYA: Yes.

WITNESS:   Almond Nofomela was a full constable.  Brian Ngulungwa has been appointed as a member of the police, although he was an askari and had no official training, and Joe Mamasela was still an informant on West Rand Security Branch - as an informant, and specifically handled by Captain Jan Coetzee, who succeeded me at Vlakplaas.

MR SKWEYIYA: So he was just an informer, Mamasela?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.