Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  We'll be proceeding with the amnesty applications of H J P Botha and eight others.  It's a part-heard matter relating to the abduction and death of Mrs Ngcobo, nee Kubheka.
	I apologise for yesterday's non-start, it was due to reasons beyond our control and I apologise for any inconvenience caused thereby.  I'm told that this morning we'll be commencing with the evidence of Mr Simon Mogopo Radebe, one of the applicants in this matter.  
	Mr Hugo, your applicant's to be sworn in I take it?

MR HUGO: Yes please, Mr Chairman, and he will testify in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Radebe.  Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I'll be leading him in Afrikaans.
	Mr Radebe, you are the applicant in this matter and your application appears on page 113 to 120, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe, just before we begin with the facts of the matter, there are just a number of general aspects regarding your general state of health.  Is it correct that you suffer from severe diabetes, to the extent that it has affected your eyesight, that it has affected your kidneys?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Recently you have undergone a heart bypass operation.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And that last week one again you were hospitalised for kidney problems, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And that you suffer from serious post-traumatic stress, which leads to the fact that you have to undergo constant psychological treatment, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And that these problems have indeed let to the fact that your memory is severely affected at times.  Is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: With regard to the general background, is it correct that you were attached to Vlakplaas?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: But that you were attached to Vlakplaas, not in the capacity of an askari, but that you were a regular member of the Police, as it was then known?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Could you tell the Honourable Committee when you joined the Police?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Please repeat the question.

MR HUGO: Could you tell the Committee when you joined the Police for the first time?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I joined the Police in 1975, September, on the 10th.

MR HUGO: And now we will deal with the incident itself, it took place in 1987.  What was your rank at that stage?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Please repeat the question.

MR HUGO: When the incident took place, the incident that we are about to deal with, was it 1987?  And what was your rank at that stage?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was a Warrant Officer.

MR HUGO: And is it correct that you have compiled a further affidavit in order to assist the Committee and that this affidavit has been served before the Committee already?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, may we mark this Exhibit, I think G?  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Does everybody have a copy of Mr Radebe's statement here?  Mine hasn't got an ending, Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: Well that is the end of the his statement, unfortunately ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so it's a statement, not an affidavit as such?

MR HUGO: Yes.

MR LAX: Can I just ask a question, there was an earlier statement made available to us, it was given to us on the last occasion and it was signed on the 13th of May 1999, that is a properly attested one, it's a 12 page document.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure which - is this the document that - oh, Mr Chairman no, this particular document was just a supplementary affidavit that was filed.  It dealt with the background history and his particular history in the Police Force itself.  That's not the document that we're referring to.

MR LAX: Okay, but the question I'm asking is, we haven't given that any exhibit reference, it's simply floating around at this stage and we need to do something with it.

MR HUGO: Shall we mark that Exhibit H then, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so we'll mark the statement that you've referred to now, this one that is unsigned or undated, but which has been distributed yesterday to everybody, as G and this other statement that has been referred to by Mr Lax - I don't know if everyone has got it, "Aanvullende Eedsverklaring", it's a 12 page document, that we'll call Exhibit H.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Radebe, the exhibit to which has been referred as Exhibit G, you have studied and you are up to date regarding the facts embodied therein, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And you also request that the general aspects of background which have been discussed there, be incorporated in your application.  That is where the political climate and so forth is discussed.  Is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Very well.  Then you deal with the facts.  Could you tell us who was your Commander, your direct Commander during this operation?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Which Commander are you referring to, in Vlakplaas or in Durban?

MR HUGO: When you operated here in Durban.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It was Hentie Botha.

MR HUGO: Very well.  And you state in your application that Martinus Ras was your Commander.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I beg your pardon, Martinus Ras was my Commander.  Please, I apologise for mentioning the name of Mr Botha.

MR HUGO: And then furthermore, in paragraph 1 you simply state how you viewed the ANC at that stage, could you perhaps tell the Committee in your own words, what your view of the ANC was.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I regarded the ANC as an enemy.

MR HUGO: And did you regard it as your duty as a member of the Police, to fight the ANC?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, mainly because I was a member of the Security Branch.

MR HUGO: During May 1987 you arrived in Pretoria to participate in an operation, in Durban.  What was the purpose of the operation which was to be launched in Durban?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We left Vlakplaas to work in Durban.  There was no specific operation which we were supposed to execute.  We received direct instructions about this operation when we arrived in Durban.

MR HUGO: But was it generally about the infiltration of the ANC in Durban?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: ...(no interpretation)

INTERPRETER: Sorry, Chairperson ...(intervention)

MR HUGO: Very well.  Who from Vlakplaas was deployed to participate in this operation?

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter is asking for a spacing, because we're dealing with three languages which we answer and question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know if you've heard that Mr Radebe, the Interpreters are now dealing with three languages, Afrikaans, Sotho and English, and they just request if you can go a little bit slower and let there be a space between one person talking and the next person talking.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe, let me just repeat the question.  How many members of Vlakplaas were deployed to participate in this operation which would take place in Durban?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Three blacks.  I don't know the number of white members who were involved.

MR HUGO: Is it correct that the major proportion of Vlakplaas was operating in Durban at that stage?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Very well.  And where did you reside here in Durban?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: CR Swart Police Station.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what do you mean by that, Mr Radebe, did you sleep in the police station, or have they got quarters there for people, did you sleep in the lock-up or what was the situation?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: There was a hall next to the Dog Unit, then we were staying in the first floor in that particular hall.