Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was after Batandwa's death I was removed.

MR DUKADA: I'm asking why were you removed from the unit because you had gathered some knowledge about, which was useful to the State about terrorists?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I think it was because of Batandwa's death.

MR DUKADA: Yes but you had been earlier congratulated about the death of Ndondo.  Why would you be removed now from the unit which had become useful?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: We were congratulated in Elliott and I was removed in Transkei.

MR DUKADA: No, what I'm asking, why would you be removed, do you know the reasons?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I don't know the reasons but I can say it is because of Batandwa's death.

MR DUKADA: Wana was one of the members of the unit.  He killed Zolele Sangono who was accused of being a terrorist in Transkei, is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And he was also one of the members of the underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He was there but at the time he was no longer there.

MR DUKADA: Are you saying by the time he, but he was in the security branch?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Do you know Bigela?  Bigela was also in your unit.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR DUKADA: Bigela killed Katula?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know that.

MR DUKADA: You don't know that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I don't know that.

MR DUKADA: You don't know that Bigela killed an ANC cadre by the name of Katula, Leo Katula?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman, so far as I say that I don't want to inconvenience the Committee proceedings at all but if there is no other colleague who will be putting questions to the witness, I would be happy Mr Chairman if I am given a very short adjournment, just to consult with the family in case I have omitted any aspect in the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we have about 25 minutes to go.  I think we can usefully use this time to continue with the cross examination of the witness.  If you have any questions arising from the consultation with the family members you may put those questions once you have instructions.  You don't have any questions at this stage?

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman I don't have any questions at all at this stage.
NO FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR DUKADA

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, one or two.  Mr Dandala, when you left from Barkly East for Xala, your instructions were to arrest Batandwa, you said so?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you were never instructed to kill Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR MAPOMA: And you were never instructed to abduct Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you were in Xala at the Ntsebeza home, you did not introduce yourself to Batandwa as a policeman?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR MAPOMA: You did not even tell him that you are arresting him when you left with him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, we didn't tell him.

MR MAPOMA: I suggest that you abducted him from the Ntsebeza home where he was and not arrested him?  What do you say to that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I thought that he was already arrested once he entered in the kombi and the kombi went up because I thought that the kombi was going straight to the charge office.

MR MAPOMA: But as a trained policeman, when you arrest a person, you know the procedure, that you tell the person instantly that he is under arrest now and you arrest that person.  Isn't that so?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct but I didn't know how do the other operate when they have reached the person.

MR MAPOMA: But you were the only Transkei police there and you were the only person who was accountable to the Transkei Government there, isn't this so?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, can you say that the Transkei Government which you were serving had a policy to kill the ANC terrorist at that time?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.  There was no such policy.

MR MAPOMA: Now can you say that when you were killing Batandwa Ndondo you were furthering the aims of the Transkei Government?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can't say that because from the beginning, when we left I didn't get any instructions to kill.  As far as I am concerned I was not willing to kill.

MR MAPOMA: You just killed by mistake?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels are there any questions that you want to put to this witness.
... [microphone problems]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to pin you down to, are you going to be long in your cross examination?

MR WESSELS: I will restrict my questioning to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I would have thought so,
... [microphone problems]

CHAIRPERSON: Because I think at the very onset I should warn both of you and Mr Machokwene that you would have to confine your questions to matters affecting your client and also to the extent that these matters may be relevant.  One doesn't want to get involved in a situation where you re-open ...[inaudible] of issues.
	But I gather that you have no microphones there.  Perhaps we should.  Mr Dukada, this is what we propose doing.  We propose affording you at least about ten minutes to fifteen minutes within which to consult with the family and then we will resume at 4 o'clock and then continue thereafter.  Will that be okay with you?

MR DUKADA: Yes I'm satisfied Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  We will take a short adjournment and we will come back at 4 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: (s.u.o.)

MR DUKADA: (cont)
	As I have indicated to you already that you said Shabalala removed the empty magazine, re-loaded and continued firing at Ndondo whilst he was still lying on the ground, do you remember that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And you say Shabalala fired a number of shots at Ndondo whilst he was lying on the ground?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR DUKADA: Now my question is, if the intention was to arrest, why did you not stop Shabalala?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I was not in a position to.

MR DUKADA: Yes but what I want to ask, what I'm asking you, why did you not stop him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I didn't manage because he was firing, I couldn't stop him.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying ... [inaudible], what's that supposed to mean sir?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I mean that I didn't utter a word trying to stop him.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Counsel is trying to find out from you is this, the purpose of shooting at the deceased was to stop him from running away.  Now he is shot at and he falls down, okay?  And once he had fallen down he was no longer running away, do you understand that?  Now it was not necessary to continue shooting the deceased at that stage.  Do you understand that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But we understand from your evidence that Shabalala continued to fire further shots at the deceased as he was lying down.  What Counsel wants to find out is why did you not, if your purpose was to stop the deceased from running away, why did you not stop Shabalala from shooting at the deceased after the deceased had fallen down?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: They themselves, I was afraid of them.  I didn't trust them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may continue Mr Dukada thank you.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Are you saying that you didn't trust the men you were working with?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Because from the beginning I realised that they were not policemen.  They were people, ex MK members, that's the reason why I couldn't trust them.  I was afraid of them.