Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

CHAIRPERSON: We want to continue with the applications of Daniel Benjamin Snyders, amnesty reference 0074/96, Jan Petrus Kruger, amnesty reference 2734/96 and Martinus Chritoffel Ras, amnesty reference 2736/96.
	The Panel is constituted as would be constituted from the record.  The Leader of Evidence is Ms Mtanga.  And I'm going to ask the rest of the representatives to put themselves on record, starting with the representative on behalf of the applicants.

MR SMIT: As it pleases, Mr Chairperson.  I'm J M C Smit from the Pretoria Bar, on instructions from the firm, Uys and Coetzee, on behalf of the three applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Smit.

MR VAN WYK: I am P A van Wyk, I'm also counsel from the Pretoria Bar and I'm appearing on behalf of one of the alleged implicated people, being Louis Snyders, the applicant's brother.  I'm appearing on behalf of the firm of Herman Grobler at Groblersdal.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van Wyk.  And the next in line?

MR MORGAN: As it pleases the Committee.  Shane Morgan, an attorney from Nelspruit, representing the victims, Sophie Mashaba and Mercy Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Morgan.  And the interested party?  Nobody else.  We will then start.

MR VAN DER BANK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm Steven van der Bank from the firm J H L Moodie in Ermelo.  On instructions of the State-Attorney, we are representing the Mpumalanga Education Department.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Bank.  Mr Smit, is there anything that you want to put on record, or do you want your client to be sworn it?

MR SMIT: Mr Chairperson, nothing I want to put on record at this stage, my client can be sworn in and will then lead evidence on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mr Snyders?

MR SMIT: Yes Mr Daniel Benjamin Snyders, the first applicant.  As it please you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

DANIEL BENJAMIN SNYDERS: (sworn states)

MR SMIT: Mr Chairperson, the witness is Afrikaans-speaking and I will proceed in Afrikaans then.  As it pleases you.
	Mr Snyders, you are the first applicant in this application for amnesty, together with Messrs Ras and Kruger, and before this Committee three affidavits were deposed to by yourself, is that correct?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR SMIT: These three affidavits you have recently read and you still confirm the contents thereof as correct, is that correct?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct, yes.

MR SMIT: Mr Snyders, in order to assist the learned Committee with regard to these applications, will you firstly please state these actions for which you apply for amnesty, and I wish to refer you to page 117 of the documents.  This is a supplementary affidavit by yourself.  Right at the top of this page you mention that you apply for the criminal procedures taken against you with regard to numbers 1 to 17, B1 to B10, as well as arson of the attorney's offices where attorneys by the name of Claasens offices were burnt down, and you request that amnesty be granted to you as it is stated in paragraph 19.2 on page 5.
	Now if I may refer you initially to Annexures A1 to 17, these appear from pages 14 to 30 of the documents.  On page 15 of the documents, Annexure A2, it would appear that there are several charges against you in the High Court of South Africa in a Circuit Division, is that correct?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR SMIT: And these charges are, amongst others, murder, attempted murder, possession of firearms, ammunition, explosives and so forth.  Do you bear knowledge of this?

MR SNYDERS: Yes, I do.

MR SMIT: And for the sake of completion, you have already appeared in the High Court with regard to these charges, is that correct?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR SMIT: And would I be correct to say that the case against you was postponed, not to a specific date, pending the result of this amnesty application?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct, yes.

MR SMIT: I shall momentarily return to the specific incidents with regard to these charges, but if I may refer you to page 31 of the bundle.  These are charges where you are charged with your fellow applicants, Messrs Ras and Kruger, with regard to sabotage and malicious damage to property, as well as possession of explosives, is that correct?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR SMIT: And you also apply for amnesty with regard to this.

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR SMIT: And furthermore, you mention in paragraph 19.2, on page 5, the fact that an attorney's offices in Frankfort were burnt down and you wish to apply for amnesty for that as well.

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR SMIT: And in this paragraph as well on page 5, you say for example
"We poisoned their livestock, cut their wires ..."
Were you also part of those actions?

MR SNYDERS: Yes, I was.

MR SMIT: And you wish to apply for amnesty for those actions as well.

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR SMIT: Before we commence, at the time of these offences committed by yourself, were you a member of a political organisation?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR SMIT: Of which organisation?

MR SNYDERS: Of the Conservative Party of South Africa.

MR SMIT: Since when have you been a member of this party?

MR SNYDERS: Since the inception of the Conservative Party in 1982.

MR SMIT: And in which capacity?  Were you just a member or were you part of the top structure of the organisation?

MNR SNYDERS: "Ek was in die bestuur van die organisasie gewees.  Ek was op verskeie Kiesafdelingsrade, op die Heilbron Kiesafdelingsraad en ook op Nelspruit, op die Kiesafdelingsraad."

MR SMIT: Very well.  You mention in the documents a body by the name of "Toekomsgesprek".

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR SMIT: Will you please explain to the Committee Toekomsgesprek was about.

MR SNYDERS: Toekomsgesprek was a secret organisation which flowed out after the inception of the Conservative Party.  It was chosen members of the Conservative Party, who met secretly and operated secretly.

MR SMIT: And to emphasise this, you said this was in secrecy, this was an absolute secret organisation and not - may I draw the inference that not everyone in the Conservative Party knew of this organisation?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct, yes.

MR SMIT: The organisation, Toekomsgesprek, what were their aims?

MR SNYDERS: It was to place the conservative-thinking member in a position of power and to support such persons and if the Conservative Party would come into power, then certain strong leaders would already be in place.  For example, in Agriculture and Police, in Education and all the other functional departments which would function within a normal government.

MR SMIT: For the sake of completion, your membership with the Conservative Party, there is no membership certificate attached to the documents, can you please explain that to us.

MR SNYDERS: All the documents that I had with me with regard to the Conservative Party, were taken by the police when they arrested me and I did not have any further access to it.

MR SMIT: So you do not have it in your possession any longer?

MR SNYDERS: No, I do not.

MR SMIT: If we may return, you say that in Toekomsgesprek, members had received training in explosives, were you one of these members?  Or I draw that inference from your statement.

MR SNYDERS: Yes, I served on the Defence Group of the secret organisation when I received this training.

MR SMIT: This training with regard to the storage of weapons and ammunition and the manufacturing of explosives, if I can refer to paragraph 4 on page 11, it reads
"We had to ready ourselves for an armed struggle against the then National Government."
this armed struggle against the government, is this where the bomb explosions emanated from?

MR SNYDERS: Yes, that is correct.  Our aim was to stop the National Party in its apparent governing methods.

MR SMIT: In Toekomsgesprek, did you resort under the command of anyone, or were you one of the Commanders?