Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: The AWB is a paramilitary organisation.  Instructions were given, there's a military structure and the leaders had various opportunities and encouraged us to follow this struggle of self determination.  	Before the election, I know that there were various orders given to people that there were, like the thefts as well as roadblocks will occur before the election in order to stop people at these road blocks and to confiscate weapons.  It was the run-up of the situation before the election, we had to stop the elections.  I know the leader of the AWB himself said that the election must be stopped, using any means possible.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage, before these ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue, how would the interference into the election help the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: In meetings of the CP, certain meetings were held and at these meetings decisions were made that the towns in the Western Transvaal would then divide, we will be divided from the rest of the country and we had to take this area over.  That was the basic principle of that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but how would the election have effected this, what you did before the election?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, the National Party at that stage had the power and we saw at that stage, as well as the leaders also told us, that the country will be handed over to the ANC and in order to stop the elections we had to show the world that we've also got a claim to a certain area in the country.
	If I can just add Mr Chairperson, the leadership did say that the day when the ANC takes over we will destroy them with bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that but in your evidence or when you started you gave evidence that the policy of the AWB was, and that was believed, to create a Volkstaat.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Somewhere in the former South African, the Free State, Transvaal and Northern Natal and that was irrespectively the policy of apartheid.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If the election was stopped or disrupted, would the Nationalists still be the governing body of the country?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How would that then have helped to get this Boerevolkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: The AWB through the years before the election in any case just went for this policy theirs for self-determination for the three areas that I mentioned, Northern Natal, Transvaal and the Free State and that was the principle.  The National Party never thought about it or never listened.  With the meetings of the CP this area was however made smaller and as I understand it they would later then extend it and that would be seen as the core area and then later they would extend it.

CHAIRPERSON: Would the National Party have then approved this area?

MR LE ROUX: Once again, the party like the ANC planted bombs and that placed pressure on the government of the day to make certain concessions and that was the same in this case and that is also how I saw it and that is how the leadership conveyed it.  If we put pressure on them they would concede and give us a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: But they wouldn't have done it if the election continued?

MR LE ROUX: They would never have given us a Volkstaat, no Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Just as a follow-up to the Chairman's question, your actions took place from about the 24th of April, the election was scheduled and you knew this, was scheduled for the 27th of April, what effect did you think you could have in three days?  You talk of the ANC having done the same type of thing and they managed to get an election, what did you think you could do in three days?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, the principle there was that, and it was also conveyed to me especially by Barnard, that the Sunday that the bombs explode it was very close to election and that would also have a world impact, I mean the world's eyes were focused on South African and Johannesburg especially had a lot of damage and that would effectively be world news.
	The other bombs would follow up, for example the one in the neighbourhoods of Johannesburg and then the airport bomb had to occur on the election day.  That was the order that I got and I also saw it that it would have the effect that it would disrupt the elections.  
	At that stage we thought that there would be various bombs that would explode countrywide.  I knew about the pipe bombs that went out to disrupt certain activities and it would be the, the three bombs would be the large explosions that occurred and in the Western Transvaal there would be more bombs.  Beforehand we discussed that other units of the AWB would continue but that never occurred though Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell me, would the AWB at some or other stage, according to the planning, take responsibility for the explosion of these bombs?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I understood that they would but it never happened and I do not know why.  The AWB, if I can just add, they did make certain claims that they took responsibility for some of these right-wing activities and deeds, for example in the "Sweepslag" they also said that 240 attacks were launched by the right-wing.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it discussed at any stage why the AWB did not take responsibility for these bombs or did you discuss it with the leadership at any stage?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, this whole thing fell through after the people were arrested so I cannot answer that.  I was under the impression that they will take responsibility.  That is how I understood them and that is how I understood Barnard, that with all these bombs responsibility would have been taken.

MS VAN DER WALT: On that same point, did you at any stage after the incident or now before the amnesty application talk to Eugene Terreblanche about the bombs that went off or is the AWB will make any applications for amnesty or take responsibility for what the soldiers did?

MR LE ROUX: At one stage while I was in the maximum prison in Pretoria we called upon Terreblanche to make an application for amnesty because he could be implicated in these activities and as we talked amongst each the AWB then, some of them wanted to involve him as well.
	I wrote a letter under the chairpersonship of the organisation that we established there and I asked him to do this and to apply for amnesty.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he react on that?

MR LE ROUX: He did say that he received the letter but afterwards he said that he had nothing to do with it, that is now the bomb itself.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he come and visit you in prison?

MR LE ROUX: He did come to visit a few of us in prison.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his attitude towards you regarding these incidents?

MR LE ROUX: He saw himself as part of this.

MS VAN DER WALT: As part of the explosions?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.  I would just like to say something here.  The way I saw it later on and my own viewpoint was that the resistance movements sometimes say that they deny that they were involved in acts of terror especially when it turned sour and it did not go the way they wanted it to go.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention on page 65, paragraph 37 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue - Mr le Roux, do I understand you correctly that Mr Terreblanche has knowledge of your application.

MR LE ROUX: Yes, he has got knowledge and he also said that we must apply for amnesty.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I be of assistance.  Mr Terreblanche has been given notice in terms of Section 19 of the Act and he has communicated via his attorneys to the Amnesty Department.  I am in receipt of a letter wherein his attorneys said he will not be attending personally but will be making a submission via an affidavit which will be submitted during this week, for what it's worth, thank you Mr Chairman.