Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.   Yes, to sum up, you were a product of the political mindset of the period from 1948 until 1994 and in that sense,  it was my own political convictions actually, were in line with those of the government and the constitutional structures of the day in the country.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Perhaps we can just place it on record,  you are 57 years old, so you were born roundabout 1943 and you grew up just after the National Party took over in 1948?  I am sorry to reveal your age, but you look a bit younger than 57?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, I also have my bad side.  Yes, that is correct yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So what you are saying in brief is that the, your ideological education was all part of the educational system of the Afrikaner?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And the sovereignty of the Afrikaner and his State, the then Republic of South Africa, from 1961, was that also part of your views?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: The sovereignty of that State, is that what you protected at the stage when you joined the CCB?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: How did these views and convictions of yours, how did that manifest itself during the later years, how did that also influence your views and your political views in respect of the commission of these acts before this Commission today?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Chairperson, the evidence is already on record, there was a State of Emergency in the country, it had been officially declared by the State President.  All powers were fully utilised from higher authority in order to maximally disrupt the enemy and to destabilise them.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, at that stage the State President was Mr P.W. Botha?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you operated under the myth of the total onslaught, if we can call it that, at this stage?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: The total onslaught, the undeclared civil war, which the ANC and its front organisations were waging in the country, and they were committing acts of terror, they were fermenting violence, agitation, that was the climate of the situation.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you can also mention, were you aware of acts of violence committed by your enemies, the ANC or Umkhonto weSizwe, violence, bomb explosions, etc, in which your people, colleagues, I am talking it in the broader sense of the word, were killed?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, I am.

MR P DU PLESSIS: What then was your motivation or the motivation with which you committed these acts, you already said that you were aware of the fact that it could not be described as nothing other than crimes actually.
	What was your political objective and what motivation did you have?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: As I tried to explain to the Chairperson, it was in line with all my political convictions.  I don't really understand the question.

MR P DU PLESSIS: What did you seek to achieve by means of these acts?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I simply wanted to prevent the sovereignty of the State being eroded and scuppered.

MR P DU PLESSIS: The State was actually the white people in control of the country and specifically the Afrikaners?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Perhaps one can conclude by looking at the types of acts which you committed.  The "Apie Project", let us rather limit ourselves to the bomb incident, the explosion.  You will agree it was a serious act of violence?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you also said that the possibly of death and injuries could not be excluded?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And further it is probably also as it has been put here, it is pure luck or providence that Mr Dullah Omar and Mr Gavin Evans were not killed, because the capacity and the intent was there to kill them?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were these acts directed against the person as such, in other words against the individuals concerned, Mr Evans and Mr Dullah Omar, or the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I have already said and tried to explain that it was aimed at the structures of which they formed a part.

MR P DU PLESSIS: According to your information?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you would also concede that you cannot vouch for the accuracy of the intelligence, on which you operated?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you say it was directed at the structures of which they formed a part?  What did you seek to achieve?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: To destabilise those structures.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Them, referring to ...

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: To the organisation, to actually damage the organisation, not the person as such, although that might happen and he might sacrifice himself in that way.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Having said that, are you saying thereby that the people like Mr Evans, Mr Omar and the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, you did not, you had no personal grievance against them, or problem with them?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And currently, what are your feelings?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I have no personal feelings against them, actions against them.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now with hindsight, and benefit of that hindsight, and when you look at the matter in the tranquillity of a new dispensation, a new democratic dispensation, when you look back with this new wisdom, what would you comments be in respect of that period?  How do you feel about that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Chairperson, it is unfortunate that we have to answer questions like these, because we are on the road of reconciliation and truth and for that reason I will try to answer that question in such a way that I make my intention clear.
	The ANC/PAC and their alliances on the one hand and the State and the whole constitutional dispensation and structures on the other hand, the one was fighting apartheid, against it, and the other was fighting for apartheid and separate development, which later led to talks, negotiations and the ANC was asked to stop the violence and to have talks.
	In the light of the fact that crime fights crime, I would say to you today and to everybody who suffered under that, and including ourselves, we are sorry.    But I was a soldier, and I have integrity and I have pride, and I believe that you and your cadres, felt the same, and you feel the same, and I would never expect of any MK APLA cadre, soldier, who carried his role as a soldier, who carried out his instructions to the letter, never expect of him to say to me that he is sorry in the sense that he actually fought against me, because I fought against him too.  We fought against each other.
	But I want to say this that I hope and I trust that the future will never see a repetition of that, and that it will never be necessary in future.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, you mentioned crime fights crime, you are not trying to say by that that two  wrongs make a right?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You concede that what happened, and the types of techniques which were used, that was wrong, is that correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr du Plessis.  Mr Wessels, do you have any questions, you would like to put to the applicant?

MR WESSELS: I have no questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Just certain aspects, Chairperson.  Mr Burger, you were never present when a submission was made to the Chairman, is that correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Correct.