bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

MR VISSER: So he first slapped you and then you were blindfolded or were you first blindfolded and then slapped?

MS PHAHLANE: He slapped me first, he asked me questions and then he told me to sit still, not to look on the sides and he stood up, demonstrating and he asked me who was driving the car, he wanted to know the driver of the car.
	He wanted to know the person who was closing and opening the door and I told him that I don't even know the driver of the car, I just arrived and got into the car and left and then he gave me, he slapped me, he said you know the person very well, who was driving the car, you will just reveal his name.

MR VISSER: Ms Phahlane, then I do not understand your difficulty, because I understood and I may be wrong again, I understood your evidence to be that you were blindfolded, somebody may have come through the door and you couldn't see who slapped you.  Now you tell us ...

MR STANDER: No Mr Chairman, that is not what she said.  What she said was that when the tube was taken from her face, she had already been kicked, but there were two people in the office at that stage, so she couldn't say who it was that had kicked her.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the day may come when my learned friend might find himself in a witness box.  In any event, I can see he is dying to give evidence.
	I wasn't talking about being kicked.  We all know that she said that she didn't know who slapped her, today she said here, because she was blindfolded, but I will leave it.  The record will speak for itself Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not the note I've got.  I've got the note that she said she was kicked after she was blindfolded in Erasmus' office.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Then obviously the record will show that and I would be wrong.
	Ms Phahlane, are you suggesting that while you were blindfolded, that somebody else also came into the room, is that what you are suggesting?

MS PHAHLANE: I think so My Lord.

MR VISSER: But you don't know who that might have been?

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the person who blindfolded you, somebody came from behind you and blindfolded you?

MS PHAHLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.  All right, I think I have put it to you before, but if I haven't these clients of mine will deny that they had assaulted you or that you were assaulted in their presence, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, before you excuse the witness, I just have one question if I may.
	Ms Phahlane, during the whole time that you were at Fountains, were there any female police officers present to look after the interests of the women who were there?

MS PHAHLANE: No, I have never seen female police at Fountain, I only saw males.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

MR STANDER: No re-examination,  thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes the cross-examination.
WITNESS EXCUSED
	I think the time has now come to adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR MAMOME: ...[No English translation]

MR STANDER: Could it perhaps have been Motsamai that did it?

MR MAMOME: I do not know, I did not assault this person.

MR STANDER: Did you see Motsamai when he was doing this?

MR MAMOME: When he arrived, Oupa was already sitting in the Kombi, he did not do anything.

MR STANDER: Just before I leave this point, let me just go through my notes, with your permission.
    I also want to put it to you that not only did you assault this group of 19 but that you also shocked them with an electric apparatus in order to get answers from them.

MR MAMOME: ...[no sound]

MR STANDER: Tell Mr Mathews Mzuzwana, were you present on the day that he was shot?

MR MAMOME: I was not there.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I am grateful to my learned friend, I understand that Mr Mamome did not reply to the question as to whether electric appliances were used on the group of 19.  I understand that he did not reply.

MR MAMOME: Mr Stander, you are telling me that for the first time.  Even the victims themselves did not give evidence to the fact that I shocked them, it's just a story.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, how long do you think you will be with this one?

ADV MEMANI: Not very long, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: More than five minutes?

ADV MEMANI: Definitely.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we'll take the adjournment now. We'll take the adjournment ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Just a minute, before the Chair adjourns.
	 Mr Mamome, did I hear you correctly, and you must tell me if I'm wrong, did you say that after the Kombi stopped you called Oupa and he moved towards the direction of the Kombi and while he was moving in the direction of the Kombi, Mamome fired the shots and only after Mamome fired - I'm sorry, only after Mr Motsamai fired the shots, did Mr Makubalo start running away?

MR MAMOME: That is correct, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.  But before Mr Motsamai fired the shots, Oupa was actually coming towards the Kombi as you had called him.

MR MAMOME: That is correct, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

ADV MEMANI: Now it also surprises me that it has taken so long for you to tell this Committee the pretext under which you met Mr Venter.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I met mr Venter after Mr Ngo had introduced him to me.

ADV MEMANI: I want to take you back to your affidavit.  It's page 19  My Lord.  There you say that you became aware that Ngo was regularly visiting Mr Venter.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: And it does not say that you became aware that he was living there.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: It does not appear there Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: No furthermore you say that it appeared as though he setting tasks but it later appeared that he was apparently having a homosexual relationship with Mr Venter.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: As I've said to the Committee, I drew that conclusion after the court case.

ADV MEMANI: You then proceed and tell us about Ngo up to the time when he joined the security force and then at paragraph 3.7 you tell us that you became aware that Mr Venter was murdered and that Ngo ...
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: No not at all, I did not know the broad plan.

CHAIRPERSON: So how did you think you would go about stopping the elections?

MR LE ROUX: I didn't have a plan, I had a suspicion that it would be by planting bombs and throwing the country into disaster and chaos.

CHAIRPERSON: And you went to Ventersdorp with the idea that there would be about 100 000 soldiers assisting you and that Mr Viljoen was part of this operation.

MR LE ROUX: I won't say 100 000 AWB soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Soldiers?

MR LE ROUX: Yes soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: But then Viljoen decided to take part in the election.  Did you not think then that that would take most of those soldiers away?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson I did not think that.

CHAIRPERSON: Not at all?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson.  I though that he was still going forward with his military option.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: ... (inaudible) to page 11 of this bundle by the business day of the 26th, Tuesday morning - page 11 of that bundle A, the first two paragraphs - the AWB actually denied having any part in these incidents.

MR MALAN: There is just one thing that is not very clear to me.  You keep talking about the bomb in Johannesburg.  At one stage I understood you to say that you drove past the SABC and that you saw Johannesburg as the centre of Johannesburg, I think at one stage you said Auckland Park and those places are not part of Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MR MALAN: But I don't think that came through very clearly.  Did you understand the instruction to be the inner city of Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that was the instruction, in the middle of Johannesburg, that means Johannesburg city.

MR MALAN: So when you refer to Houghton, SABC etc why don't you say the city area?

MR LE ROUX: Yes but Houghton is a suburb Chairperson.

MR MALAN: But you never answered when you were asked why not Houghton.  You then say: "I don't know"?

MR LE ROUX: My instruction was Johannesburg city centre ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Can we take the tea adjournment now.  There's a request from the panel that you lead Mr Fourie, that would really help to give the legal representatives a chance to finish this hearing.  Thank you, we will then adjourn for ten minutes.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

CHAIRPERSON: And that was on the 26th of April?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: If I've got it right, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you did not go back to the shooting range or the farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you hear about the airport bombing?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the same day or a few days later?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It had to be later.

CHAIRPERSON: A few days or the same day?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I think it was a few days later.

CHAIRPERSON: When you thought that things would temporarily stop, I would just like to get clarity from you, could you definitely not reconcile yourself if something had happened after that because you thought it stopped.  You did not expect that something would happen, is that not true?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: When you thought that nothing would happen you cannot reconcile yourself with things that happened afterwards?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS VAN DER WALT: Could I just rectify something which could be of interest with your permission.  According to the charge docket, the bomb in Jan Smuts exploded the 27th, the morning and at that same morning the people were arrested at the shooting range.  I would just like to rectify that because the dates and after the questions that you put I would just put it to you that the applicant is not quite sure about the dates.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are going to object to what was alleged by the State, I do not know if we are in a position or you have to present us with the correct version.  Were they arrested on the 27th or not?

MS VAN DER WALT: The following applicant will give evidence in that light.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not want to make decisions about allegations.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van Der Walt, on behalf of the witnesses and all the applicants I am not planning or except if you want to do it, to release any witness who is under oath during the weekend.  Unless some of the people here would like to do it in that manner.  Then I don't want to call anybody else.  What is your opinion?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, I think it would be unfair against the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any objection of the other people here?  It is now 20 past 12.  I was planning, because of certain flights to adjourn at 1 o'clock.  I think it's a good time now to adjourn.  Then we adjourn until half past nine on Monday.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: So it was only about the Afrikaner Boerevolk, the Volkstaat?

J H VLOK: Yes, that would have been for the Afrikaner.

CHAIRPERSON: One last question, you testified that you wanted to speak the truth and to reconcile, is that correct?  What reconciliation are you talking about, what do you understand with that?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, reconciliation means as I understand it that you come in front of this Committee and you tell them that you were fighting a struggle at that time and you come and tell this to the world and to the Committee here and that order you can take a decision whether there will be amnesty or not and to
express my sympathy and condolences to the families outside who died because of the objectives we wanted to achieve and to tell them that we are sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you want to reconcile yourself with them?

J H VLOK: Chairperson as I have said, I give my condolences and if I get amnesty I would like to go out, back to my house where I live in the Cape and I want to be able to continue with my life in peace.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand you, do you want to reconcile with the people who suffered in one or other way because of that bomb?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to open your heart towards them?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, that's why I came here and sat here and told you about the things that I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any effort to speak to them?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, I was on the run for two years and almost three months yesterday, that's why I'm sitting here so I'd like to tell the victims' parents of these things so that they also know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you actually go to them and try and talk to them and tell them how sorry you are and that you've changed?

J H VLOK: I thought that would be the chance I'll be granted now, when I'm sitting in front of you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you willing to make such an effort after the hearing to go and talk to them yourself?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You applicants, have you discussed this amongst yourselves?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, because we want to finish the case first and then the families of the victims, if they approve of it and they accept our apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: How are you going to find out about this?

J H VLOK: Finding out what, please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: How are you going to find out?

J H VLOK: We'll discuss it amongst ourselves as soon as we get together again and from there we can act.

CHAIRPERSON: What would be the position if we refuse to give you amnesty, would you still try to go and reconcile yourself with these people?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible] certainty over Mr Barnard's application be obtained.  Unfortunately, all the investigators in Gauteng have gone down to Cape Town to a meeting.  The prison authorities have indicated they are very loathe to get involved and take statements so we're at an impasse until I have an investigator to go and visit Mr Barnard at the jail.  That is in the pipeline and we hope to have an answer tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

UNKNOWN: I haven't made money out of it yet. We are still working on that to get the money in to say that we are making money. No the motivational point is not now that I will become rich out of the RDP. They gave me a possibility to begin a business. They created a possibility to do something for myself. I could not have done that if they did not make it possible. So it is not about the money.

CHAIRPERSON: Your feeling?

UNKNOWN: It is about the feeling. It is about I have got a work and I live compared to what I had when I left jail.

CHAIRPERSON: And the change towards people is that from your heart or is it connected to what you can make out of this?

UNKNOWN: It comes from my heart otherwise I wouldn't have told these people how I felt under these circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You are excused. Let's take a 15 minute adjournment.

<UNKNOWN>: .

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson I spoke to you in chambers with regards to an ethical problem. The result thereof is that I withdraw as the legal representative of the previous applicant, Mr Nel and my colleague, Mrs van der Walt would then look after the interests of that client as we discussed it with you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the position Mrs van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes Mr Chairperson.  I also discussed this with the client and he is happy to accept me as his representative.

CHAIRPERSON: There seems to be a situation that has developed where Mr Prinsloo who has represented Mr Nel thus far has been ethically compromised. The details are not too clear but I accept that this is the position and I can't see any objection to him withdrawing from representing Mr Nel. I am pleased that Mrs van der Walt is able to represent him hence forth.
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Steyn, are you aware that Commandant du Plessis took down the names of the different groups that went out? Do you know that?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson but afterwards I did. I understood it that way yes.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question.  Why did you give yourself up Mr Steyn, because I understand that the AWB people do not betray each other?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson I could not be running the whole time because while I was on the run every evening when I went to bed and sleep and wherever I was, I was not aware what was going on with my wife and children.

ADV BOSMAN: In other words it was on behalf of your wife and children that you gave yourself up?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Steyn.

WITNESS IS: .

CHAIRPERSON: It is now approximately the time for us to adjourn.  We will adjourn then till nine thirty tomorrow morning, thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-25

CHAIRPERSON: This hearing will adjourn until the 14th of September 1998.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS UNTIL 14TH SEPTEMBER 1998
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-15

CHAIRPERSON: Well that seems to be the end of the evidence.  The issue of making a decision falls into our lap.  It is customary for us to be favoured with argument by representatives before we do so.  It seems appropriate in this matter to allow the legal representatives, because it has been a longish hearing, until next Wednesday - what will be the date?  23rd of this month, September, to submit any heads of argument if they wish to do so to our head office in Cape Town.  In dealing with the issues the panel is particularly interested in the following and we ask all parties who choose to submit heads to deal with it
	  To whatever extent the question of racism is relevant, whether the policy of the AWB was objectively racist or subjectively racist and how we should approach the matter.   To whatever extent the question of racism is relevant - whether the policy of the AWB was objectively racist or subjectively racist and how should we approach the matter.
	Secondly whether whatever was committed was committed by a splinter group or whether it was committed by the AWB through it's various military organs.  
	In each of the two issues, we would like the matter to be dealt with applicant by applicant.  If in the event of us finding that it was a racist activity, how would that fact impact of the applications in itself?  
	Next - whether generally the applications complied with the act.  We wish you also to deal with the matter of credibility of each applicant and witness for the purpose of this application I don't think we include victims.  We don't need the victims evidence to be dealt with.
	And lastly, we wish you to deal - no not lastly - the aspect of proportionality, that is a factor that is included in the Act and lastly, to what extent the rank of each of the applicants is relevant.  That's all.
	Before I close this hearing, I wish to express our gratitude to all those who arranged for this hearing and all that goes with arranging the hearing, for the work of the security officials and also the interpreters.  I know the last two days they've input and stretched, I thank them for their work.  I thank also all the representatives for the patience and the way they conducted the hearing and in particular I wish to thank those victims or suffered or sustained injuries or suffered the loss of family members.  It must be an extremely difficult time to have to experience those events all over again and I am not in a position from where I sit to comfort you, neither am I in a position to say to you forgive and forget but within the context of this whole process and I think I speak on behalf of the Commission, one can only hope that the hurt and the emotional distress that you as victims experience will diminish with time and that one can only hope also that you come to terms with life in South Africa despite those grave losses.  Having said that I close the hearing.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

MR SMIT: Chairperson, I would just like to make one point very clear.  Do you mean that if I marry a black woman, our children after that will be part of one nation?  Based upon that my answer is no.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's your own personal preference, I'm not talking about marriage.

MR SMIT: Then I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking of human rights.  I'm talking about people accepting, whether they be black, white or whatever.

MR SMIT: Yes, that's correct, we'll accept one another if every nation can have its own culture and its own language within the country.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, but you must understand that at that stage there were members, thousands of members of the international media in South Africa and they were entering the country on a daily basis at that stage, via Jan Smuts and DF Malan.

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, but would you ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon Mr van Zyl, sorry for the interruption, but I find it very difficult to see what you're getting at with your questioning.  Couldn't you just expedite your procedure to your eventual point?

MR VAN ZYL: My last question will be that, and I'm putting this to you, that it was unnecessary to plant a bomb at Johannesburg International Airport in order to create an international incident there, the media's eyes were already focused on South Africa.
	In the light of the fact that your targets were specifically aimed at pertinently or primarily black taxi ranks, the Johannesburg or Jan Smuts Airport bomb incident was completely beyond the relevance of the modus operandi.

MR PRINSLOO: ...[no English translation]

MR VAN ZYL: Was there any discretion left to you with regard to where the bomb had to be planted at Johannesburg International?

MR PRINSLOO: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions Mr van Zyl?

MR VAN ZYL: Just a few more questions, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said those were your last questions, that was two questions ago.

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, my last question.
	What is your feeling towards the victims of the bomb incidents?

MR PRINSLOO: I would say my sympathy.

MR VAN ZYL: Could you repeat please?

MR PRINSLOO: My deepest sympathy.

MR VAN ZYL: If you came face to face with one of them and communicate with them, what would you tell them or say to them?

MR PRINSLOO: I would say exactly the same as what I have just said to you.

MR VAN ZYL: Is that all?

MR PRINSLOO: Well my friend it depends on how the conversation will go from then on.

MR VAN ZYL: Are you still a member of the AWB?

MR PRINSLOO: No, I'm not a member of the AWB anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, I the question was directed to find out if you are willing, after everything that happened and for which the AWB is responsible, to clear your heart and conscience and to make peace with the victims?

MR PRINSLOO: I've got no problems with that.

MR VAN ZYL: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN ZYL

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions Sir?

MR VAN ZYL: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Well you can ask it at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.	I want to ask the prison officials to see to it that those applicants who are in custody be brought to this hall in time so that we can start at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-22

BEKI XABA: I would say it is always difficult if something new comes up, like the TRC.  It was very difficult for me to know exactly what procedure to follow.  I didn't know one had to be honest and reliable insofar as this is concerned, so that it was not easy for me to do the right thing, up until I was assisted the legal people, that is on the second statement, to rectify the previous mistake.

MR DRAHT: Were you approached by a lawyer when you made the first statement?

BEKI XABA: If I still remember very well there is one statement that I made in solo whilst I was in prison, filling in these TRC application forms, and the prison authorities signed it in gaol in Pretoria.  But then I was not sure whether it was sent through until such time that I requested Mr Msizi to come to discuss this with me.  We had a discussion and he brought another legal counsel.  Yes we did the first statement even 'though I cannot recall whether it was sent through or not.  I cannot remember quite well.

MR DRAHT: Can you please explain then to the Committee what happened on the 23rd of January 1993.

BEKI XABA: On the 23rd January 1993 my brother-in-law came, I'm talking here about Gumene, and he said to me that we would have to go to a funeral, a funeral where a certain Khumalo lady was to be buried.  I refused because I was not prepared to go there, I had some other things to do.  But he came back for the second time to ask me.  He requested me and he said that it was a problem at Ngaki, and it seemed as if the ANC people were toyi-toying trying to stop us from going to the  funeral.  I did not have assurance about that, because I don't know whether he went there himself or not, and I instead said to him we had to verify that, the only way which would be to go there personally.
	I took my vehicle and I said he should come along, and we drove to the place.  We took a street called Tshabalala Street, which would lead us to Ngaki Street, and as I was about to take my left turn I realised that it was bad.  The road or the street was barricaded.

MR DRAHT: What kind of car were you driving at that particular moment?

BEKI XABA: I was using a white Cressida, a four litre.

MR DRAHT: And were you alone in the vehicle at that time?

BEKI XABA: No, there were two of us.

MR DRAHT: Okay, you can proceed.
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-22

CHAIRPERSON: This might be what Advocate Sigodi's referring to is Section 23(b).  It shall be decided, whether it's a political objective shall be decided with reference to the following criteria, then inter alia, (b) says
	"... the context in which the act, ommission or offence took place and in particular whether the acts,"
 etc. 
	"...was committed in the course of or as part of a political uprising, disturbance or event."
So there, I think what Mr Draht has submitted is that the actions of the applicant were part of a political event mainly, but the funeral was in fact, had turned into a political event, and that his action was part of that event.  What would you say to?

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson I can say that the death of Philemon Sekonyana was, took place in the context of the unrest in the  area, and I just, the intention of Mr Xaba is just, I'm not sure whether he's furthering the political objectives of a political party, but I admit that the funeral ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You see sometimes, I don't think every act, in order to qualify for amnesty, has to further the objectives of a political, a particular political party or movement.  You know you will get situations where you've got a political event that turns into chaos and people start throwing stones or whatever, shooting, and that shooting is actually not really done in furtherance, in the furtherance of the policies of a movement or political party, etc., but it's certainly done in the context of a political struggle or political event.

MS LOCKHAT: The point has been noted Chair.  Thank you.  I move further that there are the contradictions in his two, in the statement made by the applicant as well in the sworn affidavit attested to the applicant.  It's a supplementary affidavit, stating that Mr Mazibuko in fact informed him of the incident, so that, it seems to me that the applicant did not take the Commission into his confidence, full confidence, and made a full disclosure in terms of that as well.  And I move that the application be refused.  That the application for amnesty be refused.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Draht do you have any reply?

MR DRAHT: No Mr Chairperson, only that the requested amnesty is granted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll reserve our decision and hand down a written decision in this matter.  That then concludes this particular hearing, the first bundle of documents.  What we are left with then is the hearing relating to the Suurfontein incident, Zevenfontein incident, which we will start tomorrow,  would be convenient.  Will half past nine in the morning, as agreed earlier, be a convenient time?  And, yes, I was going to ask Ms Lockhat if you could kindly speak to the people at correctional services and ask if the, to ensure that the applicants are here in good time to allow their legal representatives time for consultation before half past nine.

MS LOCKHAT: Will do Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That then brings today's proceedings to an end. We will adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9H30.Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	That then brings this hearing to a conclusion, and also it brings our roll to an end.  We have no further hearings here.  We will reserve our decision in this matter and will endeavour to get out a decision as soon as possible.  We'll have to go and consider the evidence and the arguments that we've heard, and after our deliberations we'll make a decision which will be published in the usual way.
	Before adjourning I'd just like to thank everybody for making this hearing possible.  I'd like to thank the Municipality for making this very convenient and nice venue available to us for this hearing.  The sound technicians who provide us with the sound system which is critical to the success of these hearings.  The interpreters who all day long try to keep up with the fast talking that's going on, thank you very much indeed.  To Ashley, the logistics officer, for setting it all up and ensuring the smooth running of these hearings which have gone very well.  Our secretary Sonya.  Sound technicians.  The catering people who fed us teas and lunches.  Correctional Services for bringing the applicants.  We believe the first day there was a bit of a problem because they were on some sort of task team on a manoeuvre or whatever, but for coming timeously thank you very much.  And for the members of the police service for providing us with security here, thank you very much.  And if I've omitted - and I include thanking the legal representatives for their assistance, everybody, thank you very much.  If I've omitted anybody, I haven't done so on purpose.  Thank you, and it's been very nice to be here in Boksburg.  Thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it's just I am told that the interpreters are now fairly tired, it's been a long day and if we go beyond this point there may be a problem of concentration.  Would you please hold onto what you want to say and will you please make a note of what you want to say and would you say that tomorrow morning?  Would that be okay with you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, that would be okay Sir, because everything that is happening involves my name and I am therefore prepared to divulge whatever it is that I know, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Have arrangements been made to ensure that the first applicant is brought here timeously tomorrow morning?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, the arrangement has been made.  The arrangement is as follows:  Since the applicant was in Sun City prison in Johannesburg, an arrangement has been made now that he be brought to Boksburg police station where he will be held in custody and will be brought to the hearing until Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you very much.
	At this stage we will adjourn until tomorrow morning 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say you knew that Inkatha and the gangsters were harassing the community?  Did you use the word Inkatha?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes indeed.  I'm using the word Inkatha and gangsters because they were harassing the community.

MR MADASA: Were the people that you killed part of the gangsters and Inkatha members who were harassing the community?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes.  I can say that is correct because our SDU comrades were saying their deeds were unacceptable in the community.

MR MADASA: At the time that you participated in the killing, did you believe that the people you killed were part of the group that was harassing the community?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes I did because it was Buthelezi's son himself who was saying it is father who has caused all these problems.

MR MADASA: Did you benefit personally anything as a result of your participation in the killings, anything of value?

MICHAEL ARMOED: None at all by killing these people but because I was protecting the community that means I benefit.

MR MADASA: Did the community benefit from your killings?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, the community was protected because we killed criminals and Inkatha.

MR MADASA: No further questions Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be an appropriate time to take the adjournment?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take an adjournment until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-06

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I saw his card, he showed me his card.

MR MADASA: Was he a friend?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: As an inhabitant, he was my friend.

MR MADASA: Were you working close at organisational level, hence you discussed politics?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MADASA: When you met him at Bulelwa's corpse, before he spoke to you, did you know who had killed Bulelwa?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I did not have knowledge as to who killed Bulelwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, are you still going to be long?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  At this stage, we will adjourn until Monday at ten o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-09

MR MADASA: Sorry Mr Chair, I have a request to make.  I did not do this during the time my case was open because I wasn't sure whether this person was relevant to my case but there is one family member of the victims, a mother of one of the victims, whom I've spoken to, whom I intend calling to Mr Chair's permission to give short evidence in regard to her feelings about her son's death and forgiveness in regard to the applicants.  I'm therefore asking permission from Mr Chair if could permit me to call that witness tomorrow - very short evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that witness going to give evidence often concerning the issues before us mainly whether or not there's full disclosure or there was any political motivation or it's going to be significant to give evidence that's strictly relevant to the issues before us?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, that is why I'm making this request because I know that her evidence is not relevant to those issues, however, it may be evident when one takes the whole case in totality as to her preparedness to forgive the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, discuss the matter with Mr Mapoma and see whether you can reach any accruement in that regard otherwise, speaking for myself, I do not think there is any problem if she wants to testify.  Very well, would you discuss the matter, nature of the evidence with Mr Mapoma and then would you let us know tomorrow morning at quarter to nine what accruement if any you have reached otherwise we don't have any difficulty with that evidence.  Okay the Committee will now rise, we'll reconvene tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.  Mr Madasa and Mr Mapoma would you please make sure that those officers, whether it's the Department of Correctional Services or whether it's the Department of the South African Police Services who are having custody of Michael Armoed - ensure that he is brought here at least by half past eight tomorrow morning so that we do not have the situation which arose this morning where we have to commence without the applicant being present, a situation which I must confess I find highly undesirable because I believe that somebody has not done his duty somewhere.   Would you make sure that Michael Armoed is brought here by 8.30 tomorrow morning?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you all rise and we'll reconvene at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, gentlemen, I think you've said everything there was to be said of and concerning this matter.
	The committee will take time to consider the argument advanced and also to review the evidence that has been led over the past 6 1/2  days, and will announce its decision in due course.
	Before we rise, let me take this opportunity to thank everyone who has attended these hearings, and everyone who has assisted in making sure that we get the hall, we get all the facilities and that we were able to conduct these hearings in the manner in which we have done, and let me extend our appreciation to the caterers, who made sure that we did not collapse on the stage after lunch.
	The parties concerned will be advised as soon as the decision on these applications has been made.
	Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: At the bottom of page 1, the very last word on the last line, Vryheidsfront.   Three organisations are mentioned, Volksfront, Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging and Vryheidsfront.   Of which I provided proof that neither he nor I were members.   You say it's on page 2 as well.   Yes, (b), sub-section 2
"Information officer in the Volksfront/Freedom Front under Edwin Clark."
I deny it.   I did have dealings with the Volksfront.   At no time was Mr Visser under me or did he do anything with me in any way whatsoever.   I regarded him as basically apolitical.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   We're about to adjourn for the day.   Mr Mpshe, are there witnesses available for tomorrow morning, or ...(intervention).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, we've come to the end of the witnesses, there are no witnesses to be called further.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll resume at 9:30 tomorrow morning and we expect counsel to commence to address us.   I want to say at this stage that we have received comprehensive argument already in writing from counsel, that covers the early part of the proceedings, except for what has happened in the last two days.   I trust that we will proceed promptly tomorrow morning at 9:30.   The committee adjourns until then.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-18

JUDGE WILSON: Can I interrupt you for a moment Mr Bizos? 
For the assistance of my fellow  members, the reference at page 8 
to the judgment R1 Volume 9, you can also find it in Bundle A at 
page 59.  We're indebted to you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes because there are a couple of blanks there 
which we have to fill in.

MR BIZOZ: Mr Derby-Lewis lied about Mrs Derby-Lewis' 
knowledge that Chris Hani was targeted for assassination.  He 
had told her sometime in March 1993, if not earlier that he and 
Walus had decided upon Chris Hani as the person to be eliminated 
and I give the R4 reference.  Mr Derby-Lewis has lied about Mrs 
Derby-Lewis' knowledge that he had obtained the firearm for the 
purpose of eliminating some of the people whose names appear on 
the list, Mrs Derby-Lewis says the following in the statement
	'It was obvious to me that Kuba had already done the deed 
and Clive and I later confirmed that Kuba had used the gun 
which Clive showed me one day in the house with a 
silencer'.
Now Mr Derby-Lewis of course saying that he had a gun with a 
silencer for self protection and for practice for the neighbours not 
to hear, is something so far fetched which we submit will not be 
believed.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps this might be a convenient stage to 
take a break Mr Bizos.  Is there a whole likelihood if your 
finishing this afternoon.

GEORGE BIZOS: No Mr Chairman, unfortunately not, but we should 
finish in the morning Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well adjourn now and resume at 9H30 
tomorrow morning.

UNKNOWN: 270

ARGUMENT: BOKSBURG HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 379

GEORGE BIZOS: 412
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: I will make submissions.  I've got the Act right in front of me and I will make submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Thank you.  Mr Chairman, Counsel for the Applicants were asked whether they brought their Application under 22(a) and it was said by one them, yes, and I assume that the other agreed.  Now, and then attention was drawn to the fact that (a), 2(a) is not referred to in 2(f).  We are concerned Mr Chairman as to whether an Applicant has to confine him or herself to a particular Sub Section and we are anxious that the Committee, with respect should view the matter with due consideration without relying on the apparent concession of Counsel for the Applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Take into account the Act as a whole?
Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: That reference does appear at Paragraph 12.6?

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh yes, I'm sorry, yes, it does.  It covers both, yes, thank you.  We didn't want to leave any paragraph unreferenced.  The Committee is entitled to that assistance Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I feel strange where the PAC, it is claiming a person because as far as I know, the PAC, they were against the system and I don't know the link between our family and the attack.  When they have been testifying here, the applicant was saying they were attacking because they got information that this house, it is a gangster.
	How many houses which the Task Force in the Western Cape have attacked, where there was a gangster?  If this was the first house, why it was, they were targeting that particular one?  In my knowledge, each and every area, even in Lusaka, there were gangsters, in Nyanga, there were a lot of gangsters, in Khayelitsha, at Guguletu, but why they went to attack at Crossroads and said they have got information that there is a gangster, the house which is people who are staying there, they are gangsters.
	It is not clear to me up until today, even when I hear now this new deliberations which have come up here, when they say there was a gangster in Crossroads.  I find it strange.
	That is why I am saying the PAC maybe, the person who wrote this letter ... (tape ends) ... that is why they even used the Gauteng Province to write this letter, because why it was not a Western Cape region who is confirming the whole thing because in his affidavit he was instructed by the Regional Commander of the Western Cape, why now a person who is supporting of this document writing a letter, is coming from Gauteng.  That is what I am finding strange to those basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you have made that point already.

MR FORTUIN: Just lastly Mr Elese, do you think the Amnesty Committee should grant amnesty to the applicant?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I don't think it is supposed to grant amnesty as the information which we have got today, it is not sufficient and it is contradicting the applicant himself, that is why to those basis, the whole thing, it was not  politically motivated as I hear.

MR FORTUIN: I've got no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Elese, you are excused.

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: As indicated earlier, can we make an early beginning tomorrow?  Can we commence at nine o'clock or as soon as you are available and traffic allowing you to be here?

MR FORTUIN: I am quite sure we will be able to start at nine Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  This Committee will now adjourn and resume at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-08

CHAIRPERSON: Before proceeding this morning, I would like to place on record our sincere disappointment at not being able to commence these proceedings at 9 o'clock as we had arranged yesterday to do.
	The applicant was not brought in time by the prison authorities, for various reasons.  Whatever the reason was, valuable time has been lost and inconvenience has been caused to a number of people apart from just the Members of the Committee.  If anything can be done to avoid loss of time such as this, in future we've got to try and do that and avoid unnecessary waste of time.
	Well for the time being I think I have said enough in that regard.  Just to once again say that I am thoroughly disappointed that we weren't able to make a beginning.
	What is the position this morning?  Mr Fortuin?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, the victim's families wanted to call two witnesses who indicated that they will turn up this morning, unfortunately they didn't turn up.  It is now my instructions Mr Chairperson, that the victim's will stand with what they have presented to the Commission.  As the court pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that this matter must now stand down, that we cannot take this matter any further this morning?

MR FORTUIN: I understand that would correct Mr Chairperson, that we will then proceed as discussed, on Thursday.

MS GOSO: I confirm that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR MAPOMA: I confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: The matter of Mr Maduna will not proceed this morning.  It is a pity that it was not possible to take this decision earlier.  We might have done all this in the absence of Mr Maduna who has been brought here after all kinds of inconvenience to everybody.  Will steps be taken to ensure that he is brought here on time on Thursday, and will it be conveyed to the prison authorities that we would require him here at 9 o'clock on Thursday morning?  Will you undertake to do that?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I will do that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, he may be removed and taken back to wherever he is required to be taken to.  This matter is now adjourned for the time being until Thursday morning.
	You are excused from further attendance if you do not wish to remain here.

MR FORTUIN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-08

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: I said, at the time I was a member of PAC and I was also a member of the task force that was being trained by the APLA members in order to defend PAC members.

DR TSOTSI: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you draw a distinction between being a member of the task force of the PAC on the one hand and of APLA on the other?  Is there a difference between the task force of the PAC and the task force of APLA?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: PAC is a political organisation and APLA is a military wing and a task force is a defence unit but all of them consists of members of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that you're a member of the task force, it would be the task force of APLA or PAC, it's one and the same thing, is that it?

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: It is a task force of PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?
	Yes, thank you very much, you are excused.
Unless you have questions to put?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No, I don't.

GCINIKHAYA MAKOMA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

NORMAN ARENDSE: Chairperson, is this perhaps a convenient point to adjourn before we begin with Mr Shiceka, it's four incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can we make an early beginning please.  I've lost a lot of time in this matter.  I'd like to have a shorter break for lunch.

NORMAN ARENDSE: As you please Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll break for 45 minutes, Mr Zuko.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-08

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be available?  If you propose to address us, you may do so now.

MR WARNER: I would prefer to do so also in the morning if I may Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn the hearing until half past nine tomorrow morning.

NORMAN ARENDSE: As you please Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS