Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

SISI KHAMPEPE: It might be to his detriment.  He is applying for amnesty in respect of what - yes, obviously you can give an explanation of what kind of direction will be taken by that line of questioning insofar as the offences for which he is seeking amnesty is before us.

MS MTANGA: Alright.  Let me change my line of questioning Chairperson.
	Mr Managa why did you apply for amnesty for your torture of Dr Farisani, Mr Poswana, Mr Posiwa, why did you apply for amnesty for those people?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well it is because I tortured them.  I assaulted them, it is true, when we were busy investigating.  That was before we could, you know, get the way out, they were still denying and they were not really co-operating.  That is why I just want to ask for forgiveness in my way of torture during those days.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa is it not true that you have only applied in respect of Dr Farisani, Reverend Poswana, Reverend Posiwa and Mr Ravele because they are the only victims who appeared before the Human Rights Commission and revealed the tortures, isn't that right?

MR MEYER: I object to this question.  It is not correct that only they appeared before the Commission.  Or it's not correct shall I say that they are the only people he's applying for amnesty for Mr Chairman, he's also applying for other people who did not appear before the Human Rights Committee.

MS MTANGA: Who are those people?

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela amongst others.

MR MEYER: Yes, and also Mr Ravele.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Ravele give evidence at the ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: His sister did.

SISI KHAMPEPE: His sister did.  She didn't know the particular methods that were used.  I mean whatever evidence she gave was hearsay.  He wasn't there personally.  Re-phrase your question maybe to find out why he is applying for amnesty in respect of the persons that he, in his main application and his subsequent supplementary affidavit he said he never assaulted.  Maybe you should approach it that way.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Managa why are you applying for amnesty in respect of Mr Chikororo and Mr Mahumela whom you say you never assaulted?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well it is because when I ask for this kind of forgiveness it was due to the police policy and they were brought to us, and I think it is because we have to ask for forgiveness because they might have experienced the same way that other people experienced.

MS MTANGA: Regarding the people who were present when Mr Mahumela and Mr Chikororo were tortured can you tell this Committee who is John Managa?

INTERPRETER: Could you rephrase your question please.

MS MTANGA: Who is John Managa?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: He is my young, late brother.

MS MTANGA: Did he ever assist you in torturing the victims whom you are applying for?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't say yes or no.  I can't remember, he might have helped.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How can you not remember Mr Managa?  Whenever a question is put to you, you don't remember.  Who is to remember if you can't remember?  Wouldn't you remember if a relative assisted you in assaulting suspects who were under your control?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Let me put it this way.  You must remember that as we were working there you know there is a lot of hustle and bustle, confusion, the torture went on excessively and it was very difficult to, inasfar as the whole group one cannot dispute that so and so was tortured because some of them may have been involved because they were involved in kicking and hitting them.  He might have been helpful.  That is why we are asking for this kind of forgiveness.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was John Managa a member of the Security Branch?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he one of the constables that you would from time-to-time invite in torturing the people who were under your control during your interrogation?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well he used to be there most of the times because when the other group was commissioned to go to the other places he was also around.  Yes he was around.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And he would be called at your instance, you would invite him?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Can you just repeat - John, are you talking about John?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes I am talking about John Managa, would he participate in assaulting - let me finish, just wait until I finish, would he participate in any of the assaults on any of the victims at your instance?  Would you request for him to come and assist in the interrogation of suspects?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Let me put it this way.  In those days as they were being tortured, as I said, some of these people were just around, they will also be invited just to give them slaps and you know beatings and tortures.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I know you have that evidence.  Would you invite him to assist in the interrogation of suspects?  We've already heard your evidence that they would only be invited to assist if Mr Ramaligela would not be there.  And if Mr Ramaligela was not there you were in charge, you were the senior officer in charge.  Would you, as the senior officer in charge invite him to participate or to assist you in interrogating the suspects?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I couldn't really just say as he was around I couldn't just say you don't have to be involved.  So there was no way in which we could stop him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Just try and be direct and short in responding to questions.  It will assist us in moving this process a little faster.  Would you, or would you not invite him?  You were the person who was in charge.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes I will do that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, try and then to just confine yourself to questions being put to you without having to elaborate on your answers because in doing so not only are you giving us more work to do you are also doing some disservice also to your evidence.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Managa I put it to you that Mr Mahumela will testify that you were personally involved in his torture and at some point you handed him over to John, your brother, after you felt that he was a better person to deal with him, and you continued with torturing him, what do you say to this?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well with regard to torturing he might have been tortured by John himself, not myself.

MS MTANGA: You have also testified that you applied electrical shocks on Dr Farisani, Reverend Poswana and Reverend Posiwa, did you apply electrical shocks on their private parts?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well we didn't reach the private parts.

MS MTANGA: Mr Managa I have asked the same question from Mr Ramaligela and I would like you to answer, why was Dr Farisani arrested for the bomb attack?  What were the grounds for arresting him?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: What I can remember is that Mr Farisani was arrested because it was during our investigation that certain people went to his place where he was staying and Mr Posiwa was there who then took them to Mahamba and we thought there was a link that Mr Farisani was knowledgeable about what was happening as far as the bombing of the police station was concerned. That is why he was arrested.

MS MTANGA: Where did you get that information about the link?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Investigating, as we were investigating, dealing with the case well the information - I can't say exactly how it came.  Some people were involved like Mr Ramaligela will tell us that this is the further information that has just occurred.

MS MTANGA: If you heard the evidence of Mr Ramaligela yesterday he testified that the grounds for arresting Dr Farisani were contained in the statement given by Mr Posiwa where he implicated Dr Farisani in the planning of the bomb attack, do you agree with this?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes I agree with that.