Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR COETZEE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: We'd got to 12(c).

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Do you know a person by the name of Liebenberg who was apparently a member of the South African Defence Force?

MR COETZEE: Never Sir.

MR VISSER: Although it is not alleged here in the application I wish to put it to you, did you have anything to do with an attack of the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela in Brandfort?

MR COETZEE: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Indeed page 12, bundle C, it is alleged by Mr Ngo that he himself, Mr Motsamai, Mr Mtyhala and Sergeant Mamome had attacked Jannie Mohape's Ford Cortina with pertrol bombs as well as a minibus which belonged to Elijah Mohape and that this was done at your instructions.

MR COETZEE: I deny that Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything to do with Jannie or Elijah Mohape?

MR COETZEE: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: And then in (e), page 12, same bundle, he refers to an incident where a member of the UDF with the name of J.J. or Papie was killed.  You are not implicated by name, but do you know anything about this?

MR COETZEE: No, I don't.

MR VISSER: Then he has submitted a further document to this Committee in which he implicated you in the alleged assault and torture of comrades in Bloemfontein at Fountain Street building in 1986 and stated that you and Colonel Stevenson had organised the members of the security branch into groups which were supposed then to interrogate and assault the detainees.  Firstly, do you know anything or did you have anything to do with the group of 19 people who were detained here in Fountain Street building and interrogated there?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, are you referring to bundle A here again now or which bundle are you referring to?

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon Mr Chair, it is bundle A, yes.  I'm very sorry that I didn't give you the reference.  And it is on page 27 Mr Chair, my apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reply?

MR VISSER: I don't think there has been a reply.
	Did you have anything to do with this group of 19 people?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, I remember the incident in this particular instance.  The Defence Force arrested these people who were on their way - who were on the point of leaving the country, they were brought to Bloemfontein and Colonel du Plooy, who was in command of the investigative unit at that stage and General Smit, asked me whether I could people available to help with the interrogation. I detached everybody or I gave everybody that I had at that stage to help with the interrogation but I myself had no contact with them.

MR VISSER: Did you yourself have any contact with them?

MR COETZEE: No, all that I can remember is that at one stage I went up to the 5th floor and there were two or three people sitting in the passage.  I can't remember who they were as I didn't have physical contact with the people.  They were sitting in the passage so I said: "Why were the people sitting in the passage"? and they replied that there was no longer space in the office, or no more space in the office for them.

MR VISSER: Then on page 25 of bundle A, Mr Ngo also implicated you in an incident in Botshabelo which allegedly took place in 1986 where a group of 40 to 45 people - I'm sorry Mr Chairman, it's page 31, where a group of people who were school pupils of Kowha High School were arrested and processed at the Botshabelo Police Station.  Can you remember that incident?

MR COETZEE: I can't remember that incident but there were a number of cases where steps were taken where the Bloemfontein branch people at Botshabelo took steps.  I can't remember the incident, I can't remember whether I was there.  Had I been there I wouldn't have allowed anything else ...

MR VISSER: Can you remember any other incident in Botshabelo where people were assaulted?

MR COETZEE: No, Chair.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I believe that I've covered all the incidents, if I haven't I'm sure my learned friends will rectify the problem.
	If we could continue with Mr Motsamai.  Mr Motsamai on page 146 of bundle A, involved you in an incident which we refer to as the Melk Street or Milk Street murder, a person by the name of George Musi.  He said that you had given instructions that George Musi had to be killed.

MR COETZEE: Firstly Mr Chair, I don't know a person like George Musi and secondly I didn't know him and that I hadn't given such an instruction.

MR VISSER: He also alleged that the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela in Brandfort, as well as here clinic next to the house had been set alight and he stated that he himself and Mamome did it.  He doesn't mention your name specifically but he later on involves you, what is your reaction to this?  Did you give instructions to this effect to Mr Motsamai?

MR COETZEE: No, Chair.

MR VISSER: Thirdly, he referred to Bobby Sebotsa's house or a house in which he lived.  It was his parental home to which fire was - which was set alight, do you know anything?  Did you give any instruction to this effect?

MR COETZEE: No, no such instruction.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 4, page 146 of bundle A, Mr Motsamai said that he, Mamome, Mtyhala and Morakile used petrol bombs to attack the house of Nichos.  Do you know anything about this or did you give any instructions to this effect?

MR COETZEE: No Chair, no such instructions.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 5, that same page, Mr Motsamai states that he and Mamome had set fire to a motor vehicle of Jannie Mohapi, did you give him that instruction?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Page 147, bundle A, paragraph 6, he says that - and  you've already replied to this but that was with regard to Mr Ngo, that they'd gone to the house of the parents of Mr Citi Mzuzwana and used petrol bombs to set fire to that house.  Did you give any instructions to this effect?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Then in paragraph 7 he says that he, Motsamai and Mamome had organised or arranged for members of the - as he's referring to it, the uniform branch to shoot Matthews Mzuzwana.  Did you give any commands to this effect or any instructions?

MR COETZEE: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai further says that - on page 8, that he and Mr Ngo had attacked Citi Mzuzwana's house itself.  Did you give any instructions or do you know anything about this?

MR COETZEE: No instructions to this effect were given.

MR VISSER: Then further on it says he and Mamome had attacked Thabata or Thabang's of the Vulamasango High School in Bloemfontein, they attacked this motor vehicle.  Did you give any instructions to that?

MR COETZEE: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 10, he says that he and Mamome as well as Morakile, Mtyhala, Litseho and Lesale had used petrol bombs to attack a house of a teacher, Molosha or Bolosha.  Did you give any instructions to this effect?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Lastly, paragraph 11 on that page, he said there were also other houses which they had attacked.  He refers to two such houses which belonged to a certain Khuze - K-h-u-z-e and Sekopi Malebu.  Did you give any instructions to that effect to Mr Motsamai?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Then page 184, bundle A ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: 148?

MR VISSER: 148.  Did I say something different?  I'm sorry, did I say something else again Mr Chairman? - 148.
	Mr said that he and Mamome, Sesedianye and Morakile had attacked a house at a church which appears to be the Manse, had been attacked by them.  Did you give any orders to this effect?

MR COETZEE: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Then he also refers to assaults and torturing of detainees.  We believe it's the Bloemfontein incident regarding the 19 people, you've already covered that haven't you?

MR COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Then lastly on paragraph 14, page 148, bundle A.  Mr Motsamai states that he, Mamome, Mtyhala, Lesale, Miningwa and Ramoseau had participated in an attempted murder of Oupa Makubalo on the day when they went to arrest him.  Do you know anything about this incident?