Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand to take the oath.  And give your full names for the record first please.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated.  Yes, Mr Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mazizi, are you an applicant in these proceedings in terms of Section 18 and 20 of Act number 3 of 1995?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry before you proceed, Ms Dambuza - Mr Ntisana, is Sidwell Mzwamadoda Ntisana not you?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, it's not me.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE MILLER: We have an application from Mr SM Ntisana, Bongweni, Mxutu, Gumengu - oh yes, so it's number 5.

MS DAMBUZA: It is number 5, Mr Chairman, thanks.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry.  Thank you.  Sorry about that, thank you.

MS DAMBUZA: Now I was asking if you are an applicant in terms of Sections 18 and 20 of the Act number 3 of 1995?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you have deposed to an affidavit in support of your application?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that in that affidavit you say that from 1986 you were a member of the Transkei Parliament, under Ms Stella Sigcau?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: And that during that period the parliament of Ms Sigcau was overthrown by Gen Holomisa?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: And that you say that after six months of Gen Holomisa's council on office you went to him demanding that a civilian government be put back in place.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct, that's what we did.

MS DAMBUZA: Did that happen?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, it did not happen.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Dambuza, just to get clarity -you say you went and then you say "that's what we did", did you go as a member of a group or did you do this personally, Mr Ntisana? - when you approached Gen Holomisa about the establishment of a civilian government.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I think we were about 30 in that group.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, Mr Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: And what was Gen Holomisa's response to that?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He said he was not ready for that, he was still busy ...(indistinct)

MS DAMBUZA: And what did you do thereafter?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: We waited but we were arrested one by one.

MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that it is during this period that you discussed with Col Craig Duli the idea of a coup d'etat against the government of Gen Holomisa?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: It was after he was released from prison in Port Elizabeth, it was after a while.

MS DAMBUZA: After who was released?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: After Mr Duli and Mr Mbotoli were released from Port Elizabeth.

MS DAMBUZA: What were your reasons of wanting a civilian government to be put back in place?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: We wanted the people's government that would be elected democratically by the people and who would be mandated by the people.

MS DAMBUZA: Now is it correct that when Col Duli was released from jail he gave you instructions to contact persons in the Transkei Defence Force?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, that happened in January 1990.

MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you what he wanted these people for and if so, what was the reason?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He didn't tell us why he wanted these people, he just said that he was out of jail, he was going to go back to his work and he was working with these people.

MS DAMBUZA: Who did you contact?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: It was Bongo Ndamase, Nzwamadoda Ntisana, Hlumelo Mxutu, Bongweni, Mr Bongweni.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you took these people to meet Col Duli?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: They asked me to take them to him and I did.

MS DAMBUZA: Do you know the contents of their communication with Col Duli?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I was not present in their meeting, I just dropped them off and then I left.

MS DAMBUZA: Were you aware that Gen Duli was planning a coup?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: At that time I did not know.

MS DAMBUZA: When did you become aware?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I became aware after he told me that these people that he called in that meeting were arrested.

MS DAMBUZA: Are those the people that you have just mentioned?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you the reasons why they had been arrested?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He told me after warning me that I should go outside because I was also going to be arrested, he told me that I should go to him so that he could tell me why they arrested.  I then knew why they were arrested.

MS DAMBUZA: Were you of the opinion that it would be in the interests of Transkei if the military council government came to an end?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I was quite sure of that.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you then partake in the plans for the coup d'etat?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I was part of those plans, but not on the side of the military.

MS DAMBUZA: Can you briefly tell the Tribunal the extent of your involvement or what acts you did.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: My involvement or my role in the 1990 coup was that after Mr Duli was released from prison and I was also outside the Transkei, I was running away from being arrested and I was in East London, Mr Duli wanted to come back to the Transkei, he said that the soldiers were calling him to come back and to take over the government.  And we would discuss that and I said to him we had no interest in the military government.
	He then said that he was not interested in the military government either, he wanted the government to go back to the people, to be the people's government.  And at that time we agreed on the fact that if he was going to come here as the military, he would here to take over the government, but he did not give us details, he did not give me details about how he was going to do this.  But what I said is that I did not want to be involved in something that would involve, or that would make people to lose their lives.  He said that he did not have weapons, the police had taken his weapons.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you foresee any bloodshed in the intended coup?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I was sure that there was not going to be any bloodshed because he said that he did not have weapons with him, he said that he was called by his friends inside.  So I was sure that he had no weapons, so because of that there would be no bloodshed.

MS DAMBUZA: What then did you do in pursuance of this goal of the coup d'etat?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: First of all, inside me I knew that we would take over, we can take over the government back to the people and we had already agreed that there would be no bloodshed.  He then called me on this particular day, the day that he was planning to overthrow the government.  He said that I must take people from Queenstown.  There were three people, I had to take them with my van and he told me that I must not take their route, I must take the Maclear route and he would contact me now and then over the radio.

MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you what route he himself would follow?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, he did not tell me.

MS DAMBUZA: And then what was to happen to these people that you were going to pick up from Queenstown?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: They would be with me, they were not going to take any part to what was going to happen to that operation he was going to do.  They did not have weapons with them, we did not have weapons with us.

MS DAMBUZA: And then what happened after you picked them up?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I picked them up and then I drove from Queenstown to Maclear and to Tsolo and I would contact him over the radio and talk to him and tell him that I was on the way to Tsolo.  And after that communication there was a communication breakdown when I was in Tsolo.

MS DAMBUZA: And what did you do when the communication broke down?