Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

CHAIRPERSON: You see, it would be similar like when you say a policeman went off and raped a lady while there, part of the scene, now clearly that wouldn't be political objective except - although it happened and it was part, you know, during the incident.  I think this is what Mr Mapoma is getting at, his argument is that burning of the house is something that he submits, falls beyond the scope of granting amnesty for.

MR DUKADA: No, no, Mr Chairperson, I don't want to belabour this point.  I put it very clearly that the reason for him to mention this incident because he understood it to be one of the wrongful acts committed by him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we're not criticizing him for testifying as to what he saw and what happened there, I can assure you.

MR DUKADA: Yes, thank you.  And secondly, Mr Chairperson, I just want to correct one aspect which was criticized of the applicant here.  It would be irresponsible for me as representative of the applicant to cause damage to the moving speech made by Mr Mtimkulu before this Committee.  It is true that the applicant is extending a hand of reconciliation hence that he has volunteered to appear before the Commission.  There is, with respect, no element of arguments at all on the part of the applicant.  I may indicate that there seems to be a misunderstanding when I indicated earlier on that the victims did not give evidence.  That is true but I was putting this in the context of evaluation of evidence before the Commission.  Not because I was saying that the victims are to be blamed.

CHAIRPERSON: Not that we're just dealing with technical or probity of ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: Yes, that is the probative value or evidential value of what is contained in the statements made by the witness and I must reiterate that if I was understood as saying that because the victims did not give evidence therefore they are themselves to be blamed, it was not my ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dukada, I must say with respect, that was Mr Mgidlana's argument, I personally didn't think you were being arrogant when you were arguing.

MR DUKADA: Yes.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  That concludes this hearing.
	I would like to apologise to those people who have had to work for so long overtime but fortunately at least we've finished and we won't have to work tomorrow.  Thank you very much, particularly the translators who have got an extremely difficult job translating simultaneously.  Thank you very much, we're deeply indebted for you staying so late and also to everybody else here and there's Elizabeth for staying on overtime.  
	We'd like to thank the people who have attended this hearing for their patience.  I also apologise for keeping you here so late as well as the legal representatives.  I would also like to thank everybody who made hearings at Umtata here possible and we will reserve our decision in this matter and we will be aiming to hand it down as soon as possible in the written form.  Thank you very much indeed, we will now adjourn because that is now the end of the roll as far as we're concerned.  Thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS