bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-03

CHAIRPERSON: The Parliament asked us to try to achieve reconciliation and perhaps there will come a time when you will have a chance to meet this man again.  Perhaps he will say that he is sorry then.  Perhaps you will be able to forgive him then and then reconciliation will be achieved.  It's not going to help at all to carry revenge in your heart because it's like something poisoning you.  It will poison your whole life if you carry this anger in yourself.  We understand how you feel about all this but we really plead with you to try and think of the day when you will be able to forgive this man.  There are many of our people who have suffered tremendously, not only physically but also emotionally in their hearts.  We can even think of our President in this regard, all those people who were on Robben Island, people who spent many years on Robben Island, they also suffered a great deal but now they said to the prosperity of our country and the well-being of our country, they are willing to forgive.  I know this is not easy to ask from you and should never pretend that this is easy.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-02

CASE NO: CT/01419 /

TESTIMONY FROM: EVELYN DE BRUIN [mother]

MR POTGIETER: I am going to ask her to come up to the podium please.  Good morning Ms De Bruin, can you please tell me in which language you wish to give your evidence.

IVOLYN DE BRUIN: In Xhosa.

MR POTGIETER: Welcome, can you just confirm if you hear the translation, thank you.

IVOLYN DE BRUIN: Yes I understand.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you for coming, before we proceed with your evidence it's necessary for you to take the oath.  So I am going to ask you to please stand for that purpose.
EVELYN DE BRUIN Duly sworn states

MR POTGIETER: Are you - are you comfortable?

WITNESS: Yes I am comfortable thank you.

MR POTGIETER:  ... we listen to your testimony may I just express the sympathies of the panel with the loss of your husband, I was told that you've recently lost your husband, he was in fact buried last week.

WITNESS:  Thank you very much sir.

MR POTGIETER:  ... heard the background to the Upington 26th case in which you were involved as an accused, in fact together with your late husband, so we have a good grasp of the background, the context in which the incident happened.  As I said you were one of the persons that were accused in the trial that followed.  So I would like to ask you to perhaps start from the actual day of the incident, the 13th of November and tell us from there onwards what happened to you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-02

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much Ms Kwaza.  As Doctor Orr has said, we have not yet been able to get hold of the documents, we were told the same story namely that the documents had been destroyed but we are investigating the matter further.  This is obviously a case which needs further investigation so that we can find out what exactly happened.  It's simply impossible for somebody to be shot dead and for no further action to be taken.  We cannot accept this, something must have happened and if nothing happened, then the Commission must take the necessary steps to ensure that something is done.  So we are going to look at the matter further, see what we can find out and if we make any progress we'll let you know.  Thank you very much for coming to tell us your story today.  Thank you for your trouble and all the best for the future.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-02

MR POTGIETER: Thank you to both of you.  Mr Jacobs, thank you very much.  It is a very painful situation, a very painful thing to lose a son and a brother.  As you said, you raised him and you lost him.  He died under very strange circumstances and there was no satisfactory explanation for his death.  Since we first heard of this case we handed it over to our investigating team to see whether they could obtain any further information about the matter.  We have taken note of the fact that the Court told the attorney which you had that the documents relating to the inquest were no longer in existence.  Our investigation team went to the police officers and ... end of Tape 18, side B ... that was unsuccessful.  Our investigative team were told by the police that all the documents relating to the period between 1985 to 1993 dealing with the unrest situation and in which public violence cases were involved, all these political matters, that the records relating to all these cases between 85 and 93 were no longer available.  That is according to a note given to us by the investigation team and an order was given by the Minister's office that the documents not be destroyed, so unfortunately at this stage we have not had the opportunity to look at the records and the documents to obtain some kind of clarity as to what happened but we are investigating the matter further and if we make any progress we will let you know.  Thank you very much for your testimony.  The case is now on record with us and we are giving it our due attention.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-03

RUSSELL ALLY: The next witness was not here yet, I'd just like to make sure that the next witness is here - Davhula.  Oh, he is here, can he just come forward.
 Mr Davhula, you are coming to speak on your own behalf, that is correct?  You are coming to speak about what happened to you?

NAMADZAVHO PAVO DAVHULA: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Because, I must apologise for the way in which this is put out on our programme, you say you are coming to speak on your own behalf, the programme incorrectly speaks about a death, a killing, I think you are coming to speak about torture and being beaten up and harassment and a shooting.
 Before I ask you to relate to the Commission what happened to you, I would ask if you will just please take the oath and Commissioner Lyster will assist you.

NAMADZAVHO PAVO DAVHULA: (sworn states)

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.  Mr Davhula, if you could now just tell us what happened to you, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Anna Matamela Dladlamba, if the witness could please come forward.
 Good afternoon to you Ms Dladlamba, I hope you can hear me.  Am I saying your name correctly, I am sure I am not.  Could you just say your name for the record, the way you pronounce your name.

MS DLADLAMBA: Dladlamba.

RUSSELL ALLY: Dladlamba, thanks very much.  I am going to assist you with your statement, which is about the death of your son in police custody, but before that, I will just ask if you will please take the oath with Commissioner Lyster.

ANNA MATAMELA DLADLAMBA: (sworn states)

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you for coming.  You are going to tell us about something that happened in 1981, it happened to your son Mohofe.  I know this is going to be very difficult to you.
 I please want you to try and feel as comfortable and relaxed as possible.  You are in the company of friends and people who I am sure, share in your grief.  Before I just ask you to tell us what happened to Mohofe, do you want to just introduce the people who have come with you this afternoon.

MS DLADLAMBA: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Could you just introduce them to us?

MS DLADLAMBA: The one who is next to me is the husband to
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my daughter and the next one is my brother.

RUSSELL ALLY: Welcome to you and thanks for coming.  If you can tell us now about Mohofe.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

MS DLADLAMBA: The Venda people in according to what they are, they are very secretive.  They are very secretive, you see, you are looking, you know they can just do anything whilst you are there, so unknowingly.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Suppose we accept that and then we say in the same breath that because they are secretive, perhaps at one stage, their minds can turn for the good and see the wrong that was there, and dissociate themselves with that wrong and begin to support you, cooperate with you and show great love for you?

MS DLADLAMBA: Well, I don't believe that the Venda's were showing great love to me because I am saying the Venda's were very secretive, you know they wanted to please and get promotion, that is why they used to do that.  I cannot believe that they are loving, some of them do have, but others don't.
 Most of the people do this in order to gain.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Bank more on the few that you know to be
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honest, loving and supportive.  Would you say that Lelian feels as you do, mainly that it is the Venda people who killed Sifiwa?

MS DLADLAMBA: Lelian is the one who was married to my son.  I think she feels hurt as well, because she feels it is very difficult for her to come and talk to people who are very secretive.
 As a mother I've got love, uncontrollable love for my son but I think if at all I was there, I could have died with him, but I don't know how much Lelian's love is, but I regard this as if she could have listening to the people who are so cruel.

THOMAS MANTHATA: The majority of the Venda people, but if we go to the christians, you know the people that Sifiwa belonged to, the people who gave Sifiwa such great support at all times, that even when he died, some of ... (tape ends)
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: You are Mrs Munyai, welcome, thanks for coming to testify.  Before I ask you to take us through your statement, I will just ask if you will take the oath with Commissioner Lyster.

ENNIE MUNYAI: (sworn states)

RUSSELL ALLY: Ms Munyai, you've come before us to speak about the death of your son Moses Munyai.  I will ask now if you will just please relate to us in your own words, what happened to Moses and how Moses was killed.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you Mama, for coming and speaking to us about your son and we can all see that it was very difficult and painful for you to relive all of these events.
 We from the Truth Commission will certainly try and find answers to some of the questions which came up during your testimony about whether there was an inquest or not, but also about which political organisation your son belonged to and we will really try to get that information back to you.
 I must just also say that because there are so many statements that we get in, so many people coming forward, that often we cannot get to all of those things immediately, so you must just bear with us, if we don't have the answer straight away or don't get back to you immediately, we have made an undertaking that we will try to the best of our ability to investigate all the cases, all people who come forward and make statements.
 Thank you very much for coming to speak to us and go well.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Good day to you sir.  Good afternoon, it has been a long wait, thank you.  I was very nervous when I was saying your name Farisani, because I remember turning on the television one day and saw you encounter with someone who dared to pronounce your name incorrectly.  I'm sure you remember that incident?
 If you could just tell me who is accompanying you?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.  I am accompanied by my wife, Mzunga, who has been with me this long, long struggle for justice.  In fact we fell in love after being in prison already once, so she knew what she was getting in to.  And my second detention came the day before we were to take a lovers' trip to Pietersburg and she stuck with me and so forth and so forth and I am very happy that she is next to me here today.
 Next to her is my (indistinct), that is her elder sister's husband, without whose love and commitment I would have died in the hands of a relative because he was approached by security police.  They tried to recruit him, because they knew that was a home which I visited regularly, had meals there, tea, coffee, you name it.  So if he didn't have principals, they would have gotten me through him.
 Next to me here is Zoe, our last born  who is still suffering consequences of all those four detentions.  And this is proof that Ramarighera has failed, because when he 
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worked on my private parts, the aim was to prevent me from having  more children.
 And I can safely say this is a post-Ramarighera child.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you Revd Farisani, and welcome to your wife and the other members of your family and especially to your son.  Before I actually ask you to speak about what you have in your statement, I am going to ask if you would just please take the oath with Commissioner Lyster.

SIMON FARISANI: (sworn states)

RUSSELL ALLY: Rev Farisani, you are coming to speak to us about four incidents, about detention which took place in 1977 in March and then again in October in 1977 and then also about the incident which we just heard about now which affected your colleagues and people like Revd Phosiwa and Phaswana and Mohofe in 1981, 1982 and then also finally in 1986.  I am going to ask you now if you will please go through those incidents for us and tell us what you've experienced.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-03

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you for being so patient, you've been waiting quite a while.  You're coming to speak to us about your son, the death of your son.
 Before you do, I'm going to ask if you will just please take the oath with Commissioner Richard Lyster.

FREDDIE JOSHUA MULAUDZI: (sworn states)

THOMAS MANTHATA: ... and you see this happening through this police coming before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

FREDDIE JOSHUA MULAUDZI: The question is not clear.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You say that kind of a process happening through those police coming, appearing before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

FREDDIE JOSHUA MULAUDZI: I think that would be okay.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Mulaudzi, thank you.

MR LYSTER: You're, I think the fourth person today who's mentioned Sergeant Mambele Tshivhase.  Was he, is it correct that he was attached to the Security Branch at Sivase police station?

FREDDIE JOSHUA MULAUDZI: Yes, he was a member of the Security Branch, Security Branch.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sergeant which is a fairly low rank in the police, what - have you any idea where he took instructions from?  Was he acting on his own, was he acting under instructions from the SAP in Louis Trichardt, do you know what the chain
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of command was, who is his superiors and to you know 
anything about them?

FREDDIE JOSHUA MULAUDZI: That person referring to whether he is Sergeant or not, it was difficult for us to identify him because he was wearing plain clothes.  His link with other police which could either give him instructions is a question which I ...  (tape ends)

MR LYSTER: Do you know anything about an interrogation centre, known as Vembe?

FREDDIE JOSHUA MULAUDZI: Yes, I do.  That interrogation centre is at Sebatsa, it is in the First National Bank robot, taking the direction to Njelele.  There is a first turn off after Sebatsa Spurs, which led to the former White areas.
 The first building there, where there is bushes, there is a small gate, to such an extent that you can't even think that there is a building there.  That is the place called Vembe Interrogation Centre.

MR LYSTER: Interrogated while sitting on a cold, wet floor.  Is that where Sergeant Tshivhase beat you on the back with a sjambok?

FREDDIE JOSHUA MULAUDZI: Yes.

MR LYSTER: Do you know if Sergeant Tshivhase is still in the police force?

FREDDIE JOSHUA MULAUDZI: At present I don't know.

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you once again, Joshua Mulaudzi for coming forward and also for assisting us to get some idea of what was happening in former Venda land during the ...
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-03

RUSSELL ALLY: Thanks for accompanying Joshua.  Joshua before I ask you to tell us your story, I am going to ask if you will just take the oath with Richard Lyster please.

JOSHUA LUFUNO MULAUDZI: (sworn states)

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mulaudzi, before you begin.  It may just be that you share a surname and it is no relation, but if you recall earlier we had testimony from Mulaudzi, is there any family connection or is it just that you share the same surname?

JOSHUA LUFUNO MULAUDZI: We just share the same surname, we are not related.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.  You are coming to speak on behalf of yourself and you are coming to speak about harassment and assault.  I am going to ask you now if you would please tell us what happened to you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Good morning to you Simon Mariba and thank you for coming.

SIMON LUFUNO MARIBA: Good morning.

RUSSELL ALLY: Could you just introduce the people who have come with you, who are sharing the platform with you?

SIMON LUFUNO MARIBA: The other one is my sister and her husband.

RUSSELL ALLY: Good morning to them too.  Simon before I ask you to go through your statement, because you are going to speak about what happened to you, assault and severe ill-treatment, I will just ask if you will take the oath with Commissioner Lyster.

SIMON LUFUNO MARIBA: (sworn states)

RUSSELL ALLY: Simon you are going to speak about events which happened in 1990.  I am going to ask you now if you will just go through your statement with us, the statement which you have provided.
 In your own words, you will just take us through what happened to you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

SIMON LUFUNO MARIBA: Okay, what I can say is that myself here, I respect the human's life, I respect human life and that myself here, I am a christian and I respect and I don't want to take another man's life and I am afraid if I could find a person whom the car ran over him, I am afraid of seeing a dead person.

THOMAS MANTHATA: This is my last question.  Amongst both the students and the communities in Venda land, that is even amongst those who were burning witches?

SIMON LUFUNO MARIBA: Yes, now I can say I am living very well with those people, but I am spending most of my time here at Toyandu and I am not usually at home.

RUSSELL ALLY: thank you very much Simon for your testimony and for trying to give us a broader picture in context  of some of these events in the 1990's.  Thank you very much.
 We are now going to break for tea.  I will ask if you will all just stand while the witnesses leave.
 And if we can get back here to start promptly at eleven, because we've got another full programme today.  Please just stand while the witnesses leave.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: ... detention, assault and torture that happened to you, before you give your testimony which Mr Manthata is going to help you with, I am just going to ask if you would please take the oath with Commissioner Lyster.

MBIZA MBOKOTA: (sworn states)

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mbiza, you are welcome, you are welcome, feel at home.  You are to tell us about what happened to you and your fellow members of the ANC youth league in 1992.
 Can you go on with what happened?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Good morning and welcome to you.  Can you hear the translation?

MR MUKOSI: Yes, I can hear you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.  I am going to ask Commissioner Lyster to administer the oath and then to assist you with your testimony, thank you.

MR MUKOSI: Thank you sir.

MR LYSTER: Can you stand up to take the oath please.

NTOMBIZANDILE MUKOSI: (sworn states)

MR LYSTER: Mrs Mukosi, you have got people here with you today.  Who have you got with you?

MRS MUKOSI: This is my husband and next to my husband is my daughter-in law, the wife to my deceased's son.

MR LYSTER: We welcome you all here today, thank you for coming in.  You have come to tell us about the harassment of your son at the hands of the Venda police and Defence Force and his subsequent death.  That is your son Sipho Patric Mukosi?
 Now according to your statement, this harassment of your son began at approximately February 1989, is that right?

MRS MUKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR LYSTER: What age was your son at that time?

MRS MUKOSI: He was 24 years old.

MR LYSTER: Was he working or was he studying?
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MRS MUKOSI: He was working.

MR LYSTER: Here in this area?

MRS MUKOSI: Yes, he was working around this area.

MR LYSTER: Okay, can you take us forward from there, from about February 1989 and describe to us the first incident and tell us the story until his subsequent death?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Mrs Mukosi for coming forward.  The period that you are relating in your statement was a very difficult period where a lot of youth lost their lives or were injured or maimed.
 It was a very - the political conflict in Venda during the early months of 1990 - it was quite extreme and it is clear that the context in which your son was arrested was part of that political conflict taking place.
 It is very difficult in the case of a motor car accident like that - it is clear that there was recklessness on the part of the person who was driving that hippo and that is also one of the areas that is being investigated.
 It is surprising that you didn't receive any compensation particularly third party, because in a situation like that there is provision for third party insurance.
 But as I said to the previous witness, these are issues which we are still looking into and still investigating and as soon as we have a clearer picture that put all the pieces together, we will certainly  be coming back to you and telling you of what we have found and we will try and assist you.
 Particularly with the possibility of a MVA claim for the motor vehicle insurance claim because of the nature, the circumstances under which your son was killed.  We 
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sympathise with you and again thank you very much for coming forward.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Sorry Mrs Mukosi, can we find out what the ages of Sipho's children are?

MRS MUKOSI: The first one is ten years old, the second is six years old.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Here perhaps we can be helped by the likes of (indistinct).  It is commonly said that there is free and compulsory education lately, now this is some of things that will never happen until the communities themselves put a little bit of pressure to find out the truth about it.
 We know that we normally go the traditional way of paying for our children, perhaps even at times when we are not supposed to pay.  Thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-03

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much for that moving and very clear testimony and I am sure that the ANC and the representatives of the ANC here heard what you had to say about how you would like your son to be honoured.
 And I am sure that when the Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee makes recommendations to the President, requests like yours, I am sure, will be considered very seriously.
 You also issued an invitation to us, to the Truth Commission to come and see the house where your son was 
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11 M MULAUDZI
killed, to see how he was shot and the bullets which were used and if you would like, perhaps at the end of today's session or maybe later, before we leave, we would gladly take up your invitation if you want us to go and see the place where this brutal killing of your son took place.  Thank you very much for coming to speak to the Commission.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-03

RUSSELL ALLY: Just to explain to you sir, that what will happen is that we as a Commission, we are not in a position to make any compensation.  What we do do is we report and make recommendations to the President and we report back to him on what people have been saying and it is the President and for Parliament and I see that one of the members of our national Parliament who is also going to be testifying tomorrow, being Farasane has come in.
 And it is to the President who then to Parliament will take whatever recommendations come from the Commission.
 But the Truth Commission as a body does not, is not able to compensate, but what we will certainly report and relay your story and your request.  Once again, thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: We are going to ask to get a statement from your husband's younger brother.  But just to say that what we have learnt was that during this period we know that this
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was before the take over by Ramashana and that there was a lot of tension in the area and that the youth were very active in protesting and demonstrating.
 And we still trying to get from former people involved in the Defence Force their account of these events because often the explanation that they were giving was that they were acting in self-defence, that the youth were going on a rampage, that they were attacking people, that they were attacking businesses, property and that the Defence Force and the police were acting in self-defence.  We are not convinced and satisfied with that explanation, we believe that there is a lot more that needs to be discovered and learnt about that period and a lot more investigation that needs to be done.
 But that is one of the areas where we are busy trying to find out as much information as possible.  So we, at this stage, all that I can really say to you is that our investigators are looking into this period and we are trying to get statements from some of the people who were involved as to why they were doing what they did and to question this position that they're putting forward that they were acting in self-defence, because in most of these cases, often warning shots were not fired, live ammunition was used, excessive force was used and we think that an explanation needs to be given.
 We'll ask our statement taker to get a statement from your husband's younger brother and as soon as we have a clearer picture and more evidence and more statements, then we will try to give you an idea of what happened.
 But thank you very much for coming and I am sorry that at this stage there is not more than that that we can 
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actually tell you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Good afternoon to you Reverend, and welcome, nice to see you again.  Thanks for coming.  You are coming to speak about what happened to you, the torture, the severe ill-treatment that you were subjected to.
 Also some of it connected to the case that we just heard now Mohofe, his detention.  Around the events in 1981, the bomb blast at the Sebasa police station.
 Mr Tom Manthata is going to assist you with your statement, but before that, if you will just please take the oath with Commissioner Lyster.

NOANGANENI PETRUS PHASWANA: (sworn states)

THOMAS MANTHATA: Just relax.  Who are accompanying you?

NOANGANENI PETRUS PHASWANA: My younger brother.

THOMAS MANTHATA: He is welcome.  Can you briefly Rev Phaswana tell us the process that led to your, that politicized you?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Good afternoon sir, it has been a long wait, but thank you very much for coming.  I was told and I know that you have come all the way from Mpumalanga, a long drive, so we are very grateful to you for having come and you are also going to speak about torture and severe ill-treatment at the hands of the Venda police round about the same time as the other incidents that we just heard about now of Revd Phaswana and Mohofe.
 Commissioner Lyster is going to assist you with your statement and he is also going to ask you to take the oath.  Welcome to you.

MBULAHENI PHOSIWA: (sworn states)

MR LYSTER: Mr Phosiwa thank you very much for coming in.  We have heard a very vivid description of torture at the hands of the security police here in Sebasa from the previous witness and you are going to be telling us a similar story.
 Now could you in the same way that he did, just briefly give us your background.  I understand that you are a Reverend in the Lutheran church, is that correct?

MBULAHENI PHOSIWA: Yes.

MR LYSTER: Just in a couple of minutes, just tell us what you were doing here and what your duties were as a Lutheran pastor, so that we can understand the context in which this happened and why perhaps it was that the police
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focused on the Lutheran church here in this area.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-03

THOMAS MANTHATA: Samuel, who is with you in the podium?

MR RADAMBA: It is my wife.

THOMAS MANTHATA: We welcome her.  Can she please relax too.  Samuel, can you tell us briefly who you are?

MR RADAMBA: Yes, I can.  I am Samuel Radamba.  No, I am not working.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What were you doing until this day when the police arrested you?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-03

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you that you could make it.  Before I ask you to tell us what happened to you, because you are going to speak about your own experiences, will you just please stand to take the oath.   I am going to ask Commissioner Richard Lyster to assist you.

KWINDA TSHINANE: (sworn states)

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you and over to Mr Tom Manthata who will assist you with your evidence.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Who is accompanying you Kwinda?

KWINDA TSHINANE: It is my father.  It is Mr Johannes Tshinane.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Tshinane, you are welcome.  Can you please make it comfortable for Kwinda?  Kwinda, what are you doing now, Kwinda?

KWINDA TSHINANE: I am doing nothing, I am just sitting at home.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At the time you were - you encountered with the police, you were still a student?

KWINDA TSHINANE: Yes, I was 16 years, attending school at Tambaqera and I was in standard 6.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And can you tell us strictly how you met with this police who injured you?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-03

MR LYSTER: Were they members of the South African Police or the Venda Police, you don't know that?

SOPHIA NTSUDENI TSHIVHASE: No.

MR LYSTER: And Mrs Tshivhase, do you remember, did you ever attend any case of any sort after your husband's death?  Was there - do you remember a case, something of that nature, an inquest perhaps - did  you go to court, did you hear anybody testifying, a  Doctor perhaps testifying about how your husband died?  Was there anything like that that you recall?

SOPHIA NTSUDENI TSHIVHASE: No.  He didn't go there.

MR LYSTER: Do you have a death certificate relating to your husband's death?

SOPHIA NTSUDENI TSHIVHASE: No, I don't have.  I am sorry, it is there yes, available.

MR LYSTER: I see and does it, is it written on that certificate how your husband died?  Perhaps your friend there on your right can help you.

SOPHIA NTSUDENI TSHIVHASE: Yes, there is something written in it.

MR LYSTER: Do you know what it says?  Do you know how he died?

SOPHIA NTSUDENI TSHIVHASE: Not at all, I don't know.

MR LYSTER: Perhaps we can have a look at that death certificate after you have given your evidence to see whether we can learn anything from that.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I have no question Mrs Tshivhase, thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mrs Tshivhase, thank you very much for coming
VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
7 SN TSHIVHASE
forward.  There are many things in your statement which we would want to follow up on to hear what the first wife has to say, to hear what the brother has to say of your late husband and to try and get some of those documents.
 The death certificate, and also to see if there is any inquest records and we will try to follow all of those things up.
 And if the person is next to you, who accompanied you, if he could also perhaps assist to make a statement to our statement takers, because he seems to have some knowledge also of this case.
 Once again thank you very much.  I am going to ask us if we will please ...
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Vryheid — 1997-04-16

MR LAX: Please tell us what you can remember in as far as it affected you.  Perhaps you could start with a brief background of how you understand what happened there, and then move on to what actually happened to you personally.

WITNESS:   I worked in Hlobane from 1986.  That's when I first joined the mine.  When I arrived there there was a union called NUM.  After some few months working there employees were killed.  After they were killed it was after a meeting which took place in Durban, and the union was disrupted, and the whites or boers who were there were racist.  Then I went and I talked to the elderly people who were the Zulus and I tried to talk to them as to enlighten me about their views.  This started in 1987 after the union had been dismantled, and I realised that we should fix something, or we should have another union.  So in 1988 I started recruiting employees.  I did this without anyone's knowledge, and I didn't want management to find out about this.  I started going to the elderly people, recruiting them, and I realised that this union had now many members, so I went to the offices because I realised that I was succeeding.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... were you recruiting for?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Vryheid — 1997-04-17

WITNESS:   They used the garage for the ANC and in preparation of the elections.  Soon after that there were still rumours about me, that I should be burnt in the house because I had turned my house into an ANC nest.  I survived still with my three children and one lady who was my helper.  Those days were bitter to me, and I do trust and hope that if I still had parents I would have moved back in with my parents.  The office went on and continued, and they were driving their cars, passing by, and ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 1) ... children, and I called Senzo Mchunu in Empangeni and told him that I was not happy at all, I would appreciate if he could make arrangements for the security.  Fortunately Senzo sent two boys by the name of Sbu Shandu and the other one was Stanley Gcwabe.  The third one was Simelane, who was the one heading the office.  The office carried on in spite of those difficulties, and when the case was to be ... (inaudible) ... in March 1994, when I arrived I parked my car in the garage as usual.  I offloaded the stock which I have bought for the saloon and I put the stock inside the house.  The next day I went to the case.  It was in Pongola Court.  When I arrived ... (intervention)

MR LAX: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:    That's correct.

MR LAX: The person who was charged was Emmanuel Nkosinathi Mavuso, is that right?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: Just for the record at this stage, is it correct that he was sentenced to 25 years in gaol?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: For the murder of your husband.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: Is it also correct that at present - he escaped while on bail?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   I never heard anything after that.  The last time I heard is that police were looking for him because he had escaped bail.  In June last year I met him in Vryheid in OK, and he saw me, I was with my child, and then he followed me.  I went to the police station and I parked my car there, and then he passed.  After he passed me I drove home.  I went to the ANC offices, I reported the matter, and I told them I wasn't satisfied about this case because I am still feeling bad, it's still sad to me.  From there I never heard anything up until today.  I don't even know where the murderer is.

MR LAX: Just for the record, the police are still looking for this man, and - it's not clear how hard they're actually looking for him at this stage because he has been seen in the area.  Now you were telling us about having gone to the case.  You then came back from the case.  What happened after that?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

PROF MAGWAZA: Can you tell us more - give us more details about what Mohabi said to you?  According to the statement Ndoyisile was with him when he was shot and killed and Mohabi, because of harbouring a terrorist who was supposed to be Ndoyisile, and Mohabi was sent to Robben Island.  Does it mean that Mohabi was sent to Robben Island, they probably didn't have time to tell you what had happened to Ndoyisile?  What did he say to you about the circumstances around Ndoyisile's death?

WITNESS:   Jani Mohabi didn't tell us the circumstances around Ndoyisile's death.  That is the reason I'm here.  I want the Truth Commission to investigate this matter thoroughly.  What happened that Jani was arrested and Ndoyisile was killed.  I would like that kind of  information to come out.  I'd really like to know what happened.

PROF MAGWAZA: Have you spoken to Mohabi since you met him the first time?  Have you only met him once and that was it?

WITNESS:   I didn't see him last on that day.  He was supposed to come to the funeral when we were burying the bones but he never came.  I only see him at the ANC offices when there are councils, when there are meetings.  He is part of the ANC.  I always meet him there because I'm always present in such meetings.  But he doesn't say anything to me.  Even if I greet him and every time I introduce myself and he would look surprised.  This happened three times after Ndoyisile's death.

PROF MAGWAZA: Do you have an idea where this death actually happened?  Do you know where the house - can you tell us where the house was?  Where did Ndoyisile die?

WITNESS:   I really do not know.  I want to know.  I would like to know because I'm a parent.  On that same day Jani Mohabi didn't give us full details.  He only said he will come back to us.  I was so disturbed I didn't know what to do.  But what I'm telling you today is true.  It's exactly Jani Mohabi's words.  The ANC men that were with him asked him, "Do you want to take this woman to this house?" and I said to them, "Come on, guys, I am scared.  I don't want to go now."

PROF MAGWAZA: Thank you very much for that information.  Now, can you tell us what happened thereafter because according to the statement your son was shot?  He was buried as unknown and you didn't know about it and the ANC had to help you to re-bury your son.  Tell us more about what  happened about his burial.

WITNESS:   I will request Mr Xhamfu to give an explanation because I was so weak I couldn't bear it any more.  Mr Xhamfu took initiatives thereafter to get his body exhumed to be re-buried.  He will explain further.

JACKSON XHAMFU: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

PROF MAGWAZA: Baba Jackson, can you explain to us what happened?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: Now we have come to the end of this day.  I've never seen wonderful people like you are.  You know, in some of the places we have to be telling the people that they must not make noise.  You have been quiet, attentive, listening, sharing the pains with the witnesses and we do appreciate this spirit and I want to thank you all here, those who came too just to be present.  You know, when you are here it gives strength to those people who are telling their stories and also it is healing you who are listening because we've been traumatised, all of us, nobody's not been traumatised.  I want to register my thanks to you and also I want to register my thanks to the media, our brothers who are here with us helping us in what we are doing.  We  appreciate that very much.  And these hearings will go for three days.  We are coming back again tomorrow beginning at 9.00am and we are also still inviting those how can make it to come back again and hear other stories and also do invite some of your friends to come and listen, to come and be involved in the process of the healing of the nation.  And again there are statement-takers - in fact we have ordered two more statement-takers.  When my colleague Mdu Dlamini was walking around he was told that the work is becoming too much for those we brought here because people are responding very much positively and then we had to order two.  There're some who are coming from Durban to help others here in taking more statements because this thing goes up to the end of the year.  It's not the last time that we come here.  Even those who do not appear, we may still come back here if there are statements.  And there's something I forget to say.  These things please, don't take them away with you.  They'll be useless if you take them away with you.  When you leave, you need to leave them there at the door with the gentleman there and then tomorrow you will pick them up again and use them.  Don't take them home.  They are useless if you take them home.  Now we are going to close this session and I'll just ask somebody just to lead us in a short - I'll do it the African way.  That lady, if she can just start and after that I'm going to pronounce a benediction.
PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 1996/10/09
/PROCEEDINGS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-09

WITNESS:   My name is Eric Khonzana.  Sipho is my name that I use at home but I'm known as Sipika.  I'm all by myself at home.  My mother stays at her mother's place.  She stays with my grandmother but my grandmother has since been deceased.  She died when I was still in prison.  I grew up in Theunissen and I schooled in Theunissen.  I left school what I was in Standard 5 because of certain problem in the household.  It's then that I decided that I should help my mother by working and I stayed with my mother and I could help my mother.  I was holding piece jobs from time to time so as to be able to make ends meet because we had financial problems and I could not go back to school.  I decided that I should go and train myself for skills.  Then I took up courses as an electrician.  I worked at the mines.  Then after that I met and worked with a certain contract because I  couldn't get a job as an electrician.  Thereafter, after about nine months I decided to go to Johannesburg but I was unable because my mother was all by herself at home and I was the one taking care of her and I decided that I should get a job closer to my place.  Then I got a job as an electrician at a certain mine and I was earning R175,00 per week.  I worked up to such time that I got injured.  I was involved in this type of accident.  We heard that there was some riot within the Masilo place.  We were told that a certain Banaso and other people were going to come and attack.  There's a certain gentleman by the name of Dinana who was a student and Quinana was involved in attacking the Comrades together with the police.  He belonged to many organisations.  That is he also had a football club as well as people who were playing guitars.  I don't know what resolution they reached but Quinana had to be forgiven and our community decided that Quinana could not be forgiven because many of the Comrades were now in prison because of Quinana's actions.  And he is the one who had brought the police to come and arrest members of the community.  And we knew Quinana very well because he was a resident and he did not want to listen to us.  We reached a decision as to what we should do with Quinana and a meeting was convened so that we could discuss what had to be done with Quinana.  That is where we heard at the meeting that Banase had come with seven people from Brandford who had come to attack us.

PROF MAGWAZA: (Interpreter:   The speakers mike is not on)

PROF MAGWAZA: I see now you have lots of other information which is not in the statement.  Are you - that information, is  /it going

PROF MAGWAZA: it going to lead to your attack by the Russians, the police and the farmers?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay, fine.  If you could just lead that information to what we have in the statement.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-16

MS NTANJANA: Yes, he was still at school but he could not continue with his education.

WENDY ORR: Thank you I have no further question.

PROF MEIRING: Only 2 short questions.  I want to know how big is your family, how many other children do you have?

MS NTANJANA: I've got 4 children who are girls and he's the only son.

PROF MEIRING: Are the girls older or younger than he is?

MS NTANJANA: They are older than him, then there is only one that comes after Vuyisile.

PROF MEIRING: Last question, you have to support your son you said - what is your income every month?

MS NTANJANA: I get R80-00 only - I'm sorry I - I get R400-00.

PROF MEIRING: Are you still working or is that  a pension?

MS NTANJANA: I don't work, I don't work any longer.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.

MS GOBODO: Thank you Ms Matsila, we can now see that this is just beyond your control.  We can see that there is a lot that has happened to your son and you just don't know - it's just a very difficult situation that surprises you and you now find - you can't identify with your child.  And I can see that this is hurting you and even when you started to make mention about all this you expressed that you wanted to put your child back into a normal state.  It becomes very difficult when we hear to such explanations like the one you are giving to us about your son.
 Where you see the life of your child being shattered just like that and we are also feeling some pain and we also feel for you.  It is very painful - what do we mean when we say that you  have come here to get answer about the condition of your child.  Several times we also get confused by all these atrocities that were done to the children of several parents.  And it becomes very difficult to get the answer and therefore we've got to express our pain,
 We know that you also want some answers but we therefore promise that as a Commission that we are going to ask the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee that is responsible for the reparation of the victims to consider this situation and also give some answers to all these questions that you have.  We thank you for coming all the way to come and share your pain with us.  Your hearts are - our hearts are with you.

MS NTANJANA: Thank you.