Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Khotle at one of our hearings, that is amnesty hearings in Cape Town, you remember the killing from the United States, Amy Biehl, you remember that very well I know?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There was a counsel that was representing your fellow comrades, Advocate Nona Gozo and I am going to quote to you what she said about Operation Great Storm.  She is on record on a video tape if you want to see it hereafter.
	She said Operation Great Storm was targeted mainly at rendering the townships ungovernable, what's your comment to that?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: My comment will be as follows.  Firstly, our understanding and interpretation of some of these things as human beings will really not be the same.  She might have been right, partly, and still I might, in fact I am right in my understanding, interpretation of the whole Great Storm issue as I was after all involved and part of Apla.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Okay.  And further on she said, I am quoting what I am going to quote in relation to this incident that brought us here today, she said Operation Great Storm was mainly directed at State property and State personnel, those were the targets for Operation Great Storm.  Now if you read that statement it excludes private persons, what's your comment to that?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Well I will repeat it again, partly the person might be right in so saying, but there is one thing we must all understand and that is our understanding as the youth, as members of the PAC, as members of Apla, Paso, Azanian, Awu and all structures involved in the structure is that our operation was not an operation made by a selected group of people, that is from a selective, a particular community Sir.  What I am trying to say is that our understanding of the whole set-up is that our operation was as a result of the whole European peoples and we treated them as members of the whole South African oppressors company, that is our understanding.  We regarded them, the whole White community, as members of the South African oppressors company.  We are not oppressed by the National Party alone, nor the Conservative Party alone, but there are differences in that is enhancing oppression was not an issue to us.  What was an issue to us is that they were all stakeholders in the South African oppressors company.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Khotle, thank you Mr Chairman, that's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, is it not a fact that as a result, and I think it is common cause that as a result of Operation Great Storm certain private persons were attacked, allegedly, under Apla's operation, the Heidelberg incident, the Amy Biehl incident as you have already referred to the St James incident and so on, it went on, as Apla's way of intensifying the struggle under the banner of Operation Great Storm?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman and Madam, that is actually a fact and that is confirmed by what the witness has just said. That is correct, thank you.  That is all Mr Chairman from me.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you would like cleared up?

MR MTHEMBU: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming along to give evidence.

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman we have 15 minutes left, I think a lot can be done in 15 minutes, the former witness is now - has come to myself, I think we may continue.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Shouldn't you ask Mr Mthembu if he is in a position to proceed?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I have not been able to ascertain whether he's in a position to continue or not, may I just briefly ascertain whether he is in a position to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Indicate to him that we have no further questions to ask of him.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman thank you for the indulgence I have no re-examination of the witness, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I am sorry you haven't been well, I hope you get well soon.

MR MOHAPI: I am asking for that light to be switched off.

SISI KHAMPEPE: We have finished with you, you may go back to your - you may step down.
MR MOHAPI EXCUSED

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I have no further witnesses to call.  That will be the applicant's case.
APPLICANT'S  CASE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe do you propose calling any evidence?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No Mr Chairman I do not intend calling any witnesses Mr Chairman.  I refer the Chairman and members of the Committee to the letter submitted marked "X" pertaining to the next of kin to the victims Mr Chairman and that will be the end of the matter on the part of amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I am not in possession of Exhibit X.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a very short letter.  It's a letter from Mrs Smith who was present in March when the first hearing was supposed to take place.  Mr Mpshe have you got a copy?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I have a spare copy here.

MR MTHEMBU: I'll appreciate it Mr Chairman just for my record purposes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let it be recorded that this letter from Mrs Smith, dated 20th August 1997 will go onto the record as Exhibit X.
EXHIBIT X - LETTER FROM MRS SMITH HANDED IN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you propose to address us?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I propose, with your permission of course, that I be allowed to make written submissions.  If the Committee could give me a date by when I should make such submissions, my reasons are the following Mr Chairman.  The manner in which the roll was chopped and changed this week I have a difficulty with that.  There are six applicants on behalf of whom I should make argument on presentations and my fear is that perhaps we will not be able to get to the applications today, that of May and Mxhosana, and as such if we don't come here today I will not be in a position to further conduct Mr May and Mr Mxhosana's application as I have since taken other engagements for tomorrow as I had been told that we would be sitting up until today.
	Furthermore Mr Chairman I will need some time to sift through the evidence and to make a good argument for each applicant.  But I am at your mercy Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like your argument to be as helpful as possible to us, and I can understand your request.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe the Committee is of the view that he should be allowed to make written submissions to us on behalf of his clients.  Have you any objection to that?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Mr Chairman I have no objection Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just as we have agreed to your request I want you to know that we work under a very tight schedules ourselves.  I would like you to cooperate with us by telling us what is the earliest date by which you can make your submissions available to us please?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman by the 12th of September.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the earliest?

MR MTHEMBU: That is so Mr Chairman.  My problem is that for the next two weeks again I will busy with two other applications and I don't want to commit myself and say in a week's time.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, it will be recorded that counsel for the applicant will submit his written submissions to us by the 12th of September this year.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is noted Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  What do you propose doing now Mr Mpshe, can we adjourn now and resume at a quarter to?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman we can adjourn and resume at quarter to two, and start with the next matter, Mxhosana and May.

MR MTHEMBU: It is so Mr Chairman when I mention that I have not yet consulted with Mr Mxhosana in that the defence force could not release him timeously, he was only released yesterday evening, although I have consulted with Mr May, but I haven't consulted yet with Mr Mxhosana, but maybe I will do so in the lunch break.