Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-04

WITNESS:  Yes.  At the time they were wearing camouflage clothes - camouflage shirts with brown and green colours and also their trousers, they looked like the shirts, and with these hard boots, leather boots, and they all were wearing caps, although they were not wearing them, they were just hanging them over their shoulders, because these are the kind of caps which you can fold and just trap it or button it on top of the shoulder.

MR MACADAM: ... [Break in recording] ... Became a member of the KwaZulu Police, are you familiar with the uniforms worn by the South African Defence Force?

WITNESS:   If I were to say the truth, the SADF was using brown uniform, which didn't have colours, different colours, and I also know the camouflage which is usually used in South Africa, because after leaving this place and ending up as a policeman I can say I can differentiate between the camouflage uniform

MR MACADAM: /in South

MR MACADAM: 2A in South Africa and the one that was worn by those gentlemen.  It was a kind of uniform which, if I were to be asked to compare it with any other uniform.  I will say it's the same as the uniform that is normally worn by the MK soldiers nowadays.  I don't know how it so happened that it looked similar to the one that is worn by the MK soldiers.  However, it wasn't the South African uniform.

MR MACADAM: Did these persons explain to you what was going to be done with you now that you had arrived at this place?

WITNESS:   On the first day JJ told us that he is going to distinguish between a man and a boy, and he asked us to pull up our socks, because we are going to work.

MR MACADAM: Was anything specifically told to you what the nature of your work would be at all?

WITNESS:   He told us that what's important is if we do allow that this country of ours be taken by communists we should know that we have stabbed ourself with our own spear, and he said we have to answer to our grandchildren as to how we allow the country to be taken to be also inflicted by bad things - poverty.  I can't forget these words, because these words created change in my life.  They made me to ask myself or to reassess who am I.  On that particular day when he said these words I didn't have the knowledge as to what have I done to arrive at these things that he mentioned - the poverty.  However, these words made me to sit down and think as to whether I could take part to avoid that our country be derailed into poverty, and also that our grandchildren should blame us, saying that we didn't defend our country - we left it on the hands of communists and that will be the cause - that was the cause of the poverty.

MR MACADAM: /... [Break in

MR MACADAM: 2A ... [Break in recording] ... speaking persons who were present at that place, was there anyone who was holding a position of authority?

WITNESS:   I would like to go back a bit.  I'm referring to the first day on the place, this particular place which I didn't know.  There wasn't any black leader at that time.  We had a leader when the second group arrived, which came after us.

MR MACADAM: Do you remember when that was?

WITNESS:   Even if I don't remember whether it's about after a few days, I won't say it's more than a week - six days.

MR MACADAM: And who was that person who arrived, as you say, approximately a week later?

WITNESS:   It was Daluxolo Luthuli.  He was known as Madlanduna.  He was introduced to us as a political commissar, and it was explained as to his involvement in wars.  We were also told that he is a former ANC member, and we were told about the importance of his presence to us.  That's the first time we had a black leader.

MR MACADAM: And who explained who he was to you?

WITNESS:   Yes, he did explain himself, because we used to spend time with him.  At night, after the training, after 6 o'clock we used to sit down and relax and talk to him.  We were not discussing the training matters.  We would sit down and ask as to who he was.  Fortunately I was from Hammarsdale, Mpumalanga.  Madlanduna's home was at Georgedale, which is next to Mpumalanga, Hammarsdale.  He was the son of Reverend Jafta.  We knew him while we were growing up as young men.  Even if we knew that one of his sons skipped the country, we didn't know that son.  When Madlanduna arrived at the camp, when I tried to trace his beginnings or his history and I discovered that this is the very son

MR MACADAM: /of the Reverend

MR MACADAM: 2A of the Reverend that we heard about, and they used to say he was related to Chief Albert Luthuli, who was the last ANC leader before ANC was banned in the country.

MR MACADAM: The man whom you've named JJ, did he tell you anything about Mr Luthuli, what position he held or whether he had any powers to perform or not?

WITNESS:   Yes, he did tell us that Luthuli is a political commissar.  This was a position which endowed him with power to instruct us when it comes to politics, and also to look after us ... [break in recording] ... and also ... (inaudible) ... our problems and our behaviour, and also to give us inspiration and hope and he was also known as a person who was very well-trained.  Therefore his presence amongst us was very inspiring.

MR MACADAM: At a certain stage were you and the other persons who had been in the Nhlumgwane camp given any training by JJ and these other persons?

WITNESS:   Yes, as time continued we started to be build the camp in which we were supposed to be trained.  As I have mentioned, when we arrived, there was nothing in that desert.  It was only the trees and the soil and also a river running by.  We had to start from scratch to build the tents where we were supposed to sleep.  We had to build showers where we have to take showers.  We have to connect water pipes to the showers.  We had to build toilets.

MR MACADAM: ... [Break in recording] ... completed, did you then go on to do anything else?

WITNESS:   May you please repeat the question?

MR MACADAM: ... [Break in recording] ... telling us that you were in the process of constructing a camp at this spot.  What I want you to do is not so much to give us

MR MACADAM: /descriptions of

MR MACADAM: 2B descriptions of the buildings and the work you did at that stage, I want you to tell us what happened once that had been completed - once all this building was finalised - what happened then, after that point?

WITNESS:   Others - the second group - arrived.  Those who came - Sergeant Themba Gcsibe, the one I referred to as a sergeant at the KwaZulu Police.  We were combined, the old group and the new group, and we were divided into four platoons.  That's where I ended up as a commander of platoon 1, and there we started to train and were taught how to march, which was used as a way of enforcing discipline to us.  While they were teaching us how to march - maybe I don't remember well, but we ended up discovering that during those few days above - on the other side of the river, there are houses built with mud bricks and they have the thatched roofs.  These were the houses which were occupied by our instructors.  They were not yet fully complete - the construction was not yet fully complete.  Some of us were taken from us to continue building these houses on the other side of the river.  After we were divided, they taught us how to march and we were also given the basic training.

MR MACADAM: ... [Break in recording] ... to us what the main features of the basic training was.

WITNESS:   I will explain basic training as a step forward to military set-up.  It shows you the way of life within the military.  You are taught - maybe I should start about marching.  You are taught how to turn.  If they say to you, "Move to the right three times", and you turn right, you must know how to do it and if they say, "About turn", you must know exactly what it means.  When they say, "On your stomach

MR MACADAM: /down", it means