Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, I was making the statement for him for the purpose of the company, I was making that for the company.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you not make that statement to the Hillbrow Police Station?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I was given an envelope to go and hand it over to the SAP in Hillbrow. I didn't know what was inside the envelope.

ADV PRINSLOO: But why do you link this envelope to your statement?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I beg your pardon?

ADV PRINSLOO: How do you link this envelope to your statement today?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I don't understand that question.

ADV PRINSLOO: You say you were merely given an envelope, you didn't know what it contained. How are you then able to say your statement was in that envelope?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: As Mr Gerber have already said yesterday, I am saying previously on them at the court, they say that I - they have given me the statement, inside the envelope to hand it over to the SAP, and anyway I recall that, that they did gave me the envelope to go and hand it over to the SAP.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you not, did the Hillbrow police question you with regard to the disappearance of Samuel?  Did the police from the Hillbrow police station question you at all with regard to the alleged disappearance of Samuel?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No.

ADV PRINSLOO: And yet they were in possession of your statement?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, it seems so, they were in possession of my statement.

ADV PRINSLOO: And Mr Mkoana, you were arrested by the police, subsequent to Mr Oosthuisen making this information available to the police.  Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And you appeared in court?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Together with the other accused, initially.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And at that stage you were a suspect in this particular case.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes.  And you knew that you had to save your own skin from prosecution.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Not to save my own skin, but just to tell the truth.

ADV PRINSLOO: But you knew also that you could have been regarded as an accomplice, being present, not doing anything to assist the deceased. Correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Not correct.  That's why I say I only told the police the truth, I was not trying to defend myself from maybe telling any lie.

ADV PRINSLOO: But for the number of occasions you appeared in court.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: You were in jeopardy, is that correct, of being prosecuted?  There was a chance that you would have been prosecuted?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: When did you make your statement to the police?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: The first day we were arrested, it was ...

JUDGE WILSON: Not after you had been in court on a number of occasions?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mkoana, did you initially make a statement when you were warned by the police, warned in terms of the Judge's Rules? Correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: What I can only remember is that I made a statement, full statement of what happened to the police. I mean, what happened on that particular day.

ADV PRINSLOO: When did you initially make a statement, Mr Mkoana?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I have already said that very first day I was arrested.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana, when did you first appear in court?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I cannot remember, but it was immediately after the statement had been taken from us.

ADV PRINSLOO: Just a moment's indulgence, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now with regards, as far as the scene is concerned, where the deceased was hanging, you said Mr Gerber and Van Eyck were sitting some 200 metres away from where he was hanging from the tree. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, I said plus/minus.

ADV PRINSLOO: Can you indicate in this building how far they were sitting away, Mr Mkoana?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Further where this building ends.

HASSAN MALL: Pardon?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Further, from here further to the other side of this wall.

HASSAN MALL: It is further than that?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, further than that wall.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now in relation to where the vehicles were parked, where were Mr Gerber and Van Eyck sitting at the time?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: They were sitting by the vehicles.

ADV PRINSLOO: And do you know, is that in the road, that runs parallel to the spot where the deceased was hanging from the tree?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Not so easily transparent, if maybe you are walking past by that, it is that road, the road was not being used.  You could not even spot him, because there was also some heap of mine dumps like.

ADV PRINSLOO: The cars, were they parked on the same side as to where the tree was situate, where the deceased was hanging from?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, not on the same side.

HASSAN MALL: Is there some dispute about this?

ADV PRINSLOO: It is just the distance. It is not a really dispute, Mr Chairman, I don't think much turns on that.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

ADV PRINSLOO: Whether the distance was 50 or 200 metres.

HASSAN MALL: Well, has it been suggested what the distance wow?

ADV PRINSLOO: My recollection, I am speaking now from memory way back, Mr Chairman, it was much less than that, than 200 metres. I think 200 metres is way beyond that point. The locality does not allow for that.

HASSAN MALL: Put it to him then.

ADV PRINSLOO: But nothing turns on that, I think, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Very well then, let's move on.

ADV PRINSLOO: I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRINSLOO

HASSAN MALL: Have you any questions to put to this witness?

ADV VAN DER VKV: Could you just use your ear-phones, because I am going to ask my questions in Afrikaans.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, that's fine, I understand Afrikaans.

ADV VAN DER VKV: You said that, if I understood your testimony correctly, that when you left the building on the 21st of May, at Fidelity Guards, to the first scene, you said that Mr Van Eyck gave instructions that the deceased had to be covered.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I didn't say Mr Van Eyck, I said Frans Oosthuisen.

ADV VAN DER VKV: Then I understood you incorrectly.  You went on to say that you went to Port Elizabeth to infiltrate the Nkala Gang.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, that's right.

ADV VAN DER VKV: Did you also take an informer that Mr Oosthuisen made available?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV VAN DER VKV: You see, I want to put it to you that it wasn't in the application, it also wasn't in the evidence that was taken before the Commission. It was never Mr Van Eyck's case that if the Nkala Gang were infiltrated, for political reasons. So your evidence is correct as far as that is concerned.  It was about the robberies in Port Elizabeth.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, in the interests of the company.

ADV VAN DER VKV: There is just another aspect. You said that you didn't go to Soweto with Mr Van Eyck to buy AK-47 rifles. Is that right?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, that's correct.

ADV VAN DER VKV: Because you say you were working underground.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, that's right.

ADV VAN DER VKV: Now when and where at that stage did you work underground?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: As I have said already, I began to work underground after Mr Daantjie van Wyk decided it was about enough for the company, because the company was losing a lot of money and the informers were scared, they didn't want to give us any more information.  Then he decided or perhaps they decided that they should rather establish a unit which would work underground, but I began working with that unit in October in 1990.