Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: There were as I said a special investigativeteam Chair under the command of Brigadier Dantjie Van Wyk, theyinvestigated every one of these incidents.

JUDGE WILSON: : Were the dockets prepared and sent to theAttorney-General?

ANSWER: As far as I know yes Chair there were dossiersin
2b preparation /...
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preparation but what became of these dossiers I would not know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Brigadier would you regard Mbkhoto as apolitical organisation or as a cultural organisation?

ANSWER: To some extent they started as a cultural organisationbut I would say that through the course of events and becauseof Pete Ntuli they become more politically active than culturally.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Would you therefore regard them as a politicalorganisation as you would like the ANC, the PAC, would they qualifyin that status?

ANSWER: Not quite of the same stature.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MR DU PLESSIS: : Thank you Mr Chairman, I beg leave tocall Captain Hechter on the same incident.   You will find thaton page 234 of his application.   Mr Chairman before we start,it seems that the one aspect of these applications in the pressureunder which they were drawn that didn't receive the attentionthat it should have received was the specific deeds and the identificationthereof.   In the case of Captain Hechter I would like to justrefer you to page 234, the reference to "attempted murder"should actually be a reference to "murder".

CHAIRPERSON: If it is convenient at some stage for you tosubmit just the pages that you wish amended, more particularlyreflecting the offences because when amnesty is considered, specialattention can only be given to the offences specifically mentioned.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes, Mr Chairman my intention was to atthe end of the applications, in argument when I deal with that,
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to hand up to you specific pages referring to all the incidentsin which I will try to identify further acts which have not perhapsbeen specifically identified at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
JACQUES HECHTER (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter I am not going to take youthrough the whole matter because it is exactly the same as BrigadierCronje's evidence.

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter, regarding the evidence aboutthe political motivation, do you agree with Brigadier Cronje'sevidence?

ANSWER: That is the case, where the Brigadier cannotremember everything perhaps I can remember that during June orJuly, the period around the burning point, the Mbkhoto went outone night and burned down 50 houses.   There were about 30 peopledied that night or were killed.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter then there are one or two furtheraspects that you could perhaps explain to the Committee.   Letus start on page 237, you refer to a specially built bomb, canyou please explain a bit more about this bomb to the Committee?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman, this bomb was built by the SpecialForces of the SADF for this specific operation.   If I remembercorrectly, Joe Verster pertinently asked me what kind of vehiclewas used, I had to go and find out what the registration numberwas so that we can determine the number of the chassis and sothat they could build a ready-made bomb for this specific vehicle.  This bomb was specifically built with plastic, plasticine, itwas about 4kg, it was
2b designed /...
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designed in such a way that it could be mounted on the vehiclewithout the necessity of light, without you having to see whatyou were doing exactly.   The precise measurements are difficultto tell, it was approximately twice as large as a normal foliopage, I would say it was about 2-3cms thick.   The explosiveswere in a black tin or plate covering which was in a square form.  This bomb also had a safety time mechanism.   After the bombwas mounted you pulled out the safety pin after which the bombwould be activated 30 minutes later.   The bomb also had two separatepush buttons to let the bomb explode to prevent a malfunction.  After the button had been pushed, on request, there was a 30second time lapse.   We suspected where Mr Ntuli would be thatday approximately and we knew the route he took to his house.  We also knew that he was a person who normally drove at onespeed.   He kept to the speed limit.   We thought if there wasa 30 minute time lapse, sorry 30 second time lapse he would bein an open piece of veld and we wanted the bomb to explode inthat area that was not built up, but we did not want to followyou so that we would be noticed.

<UNKNOWN>: Why did you want the bomb to explode in theopen area?

ANSWER: If that bomb would have exploded in a built uparea, civilians who were not involved would have been injured.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain, you personally mounted the bomb isthat correct?

ANSWER: Yes that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain can you remember an incident some timeafter this incident, was this incident discussed with you
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later on, did you go back to the place where it happened, canyou remember anything else?

ANSWER: What exactly are you referring to?

<UNKNOWN>: Was there ever a discussion with any of thecommanding officers?

ANSWER: A long time afterwards, as a matter of fact onlyrecently before Colonel Van Jaarsveld became a witness, we discussedthe Ntuli case and he...(end of side 2)...with Brigadier Cronjewhen he received a call from the main office to go there and discussthe Ntuli case.   He left Captain Van Jaarsveld in the officeand went to the main office.   Just after that when he came backI was called and I received the task to eliminate Mr Ntuli.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter did you ever receive verificationafter the event from anybody above you that the people higherup in the ranks knew about this instruction, this order?

ANSWER: It is difficult to remember Mr Chairman, I suspector I believe that Brigadier Cronje told me or mentioned it tome that we received an order to eliminate Mr Ntuli.   I cannotmention a name, I can't imagine that a name was mentioned, I can'tremember.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter did you, during any discussionswith Basie Smit, discuss this with him, was there any mentionof this incident?

ANSWER: After Brigadier Smit or General Smit took overat the Safety Branch he called me, W/O Van Vuuren and ColonelLoots and he asked us to go with him to Kwandabele.   The fourof us went to Kwandabele with his vehicle, I was driving it.  When we came into Siabuswa on that road, we drove over the holethat at that stage had already been
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fixed.   Then General Smit said "Hechter this is your monument".  I did not admit that and he turned around and he said "don'ttry to make a fool of me I did read the reports" but I stilldenied it.

<UNKNOWN>: Did he at any stage repudiate it?

ANSWER: No not at all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you were concerned where did youget your specific instructions in connection with this incident?

ANSWER: The instruction came directly from the Brigadier,Brigadier Cronje.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand the position that nobody challengedyour actions or made any comment about it?

ANSWER: As the Brigadier gave testimony, he gave in areport and at the same time I also handed in a report in whichI mentioned why I was there and I said I was there as the Brigadier'sdriver.   At that time a senior officer had instructions fromhead office that senior offices were not supposed to enter theseareas without a driver, so they were not allowed to enter theseareas on their own.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Captain, was Trevits ever advised of thesuccess of your operation?

ANSWER: Unfortunately Chair I was too insignificant tohave anything to do with Trevits, I had no idea what happenedsubsequently.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE