Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MR DORFLING: : But say your evidence was that in your view you didn't even hit a single marcher.  How would the question of exceeding the bounds of self-defence ever come into play?

CHAIRPERSON: I will imagine a general consultation between the lawyers and the clients for this matter is generally discussed.  Can't you as a lawyer, experienced lawyer, picture that?

MR DORFLING: : Mr Chairman I am dealing specifically with the applicant's perception, his own perception, and what went on in his own mind.  But I will leave it at that for purposes of argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: : I think - can I just conclude the point by saying or referring the Committee Mr Chair to page 93 at paragraph 9A of the application 9A(I)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: : "Prior to the commencement of the inquest proceedings Mr...."  Have you got it in front of you Mr Moolman?  Page 93, you've got it?  I'm reading from paragraph 9A(I).  Already there prior to you giving evidence in the inquest proceedings Sir you provide for the possibility of you having exceeded the bounds of self-defence.  Now if that perception was never in your own mind then why did you include it in your application?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I said I applied for amnesty because of the advice from my legal advisers.  Everything you see there, almost everything you see there was an advice from them.

MR DORFLING: : Now Mr Moolman if I may just revert back to your instructions.  Were you told that you could shoot at the at the marchers at the time when you perceived there to be an attack regardless whether people were carrying firearms or not?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: When we were told to repel the marchers we were not told what arms would they be carrying.

MR DORFLING: Did you understand your instruction to entail that you could shoot at people amongst the crowd that did not have any firearms?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Sir what do you mean when you say were we instructed to shoot people who did not have firearms?

MR DORFLING: I am not saying you were instructed to shoot at people who didn't have firearms.  I asked you whether you understood your instructions to mean that if there was an attack forthcoming from the marchers you could shoot at the crowd and at the marchers without having regard who carries firearms and who not.  In other words you can shoot at the crowd at random, in general without aiming your fire at a specific individual carrying a firearm.  Did you understand your instructions to be that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: The instructions said that people will be attacking and those are the people that we should repel.

MR DORFLING: Did you understand that to mean that you can only shoot at people that form part of an attack?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I referred to people who would attack.

MR DORFLING: Firearms or not necessarily?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I believe when we were given this instruction nobody knew what kind of an attack would be carried forward with firearms or without firearms nobody knew.

MR DORFLING: You see Mr Moolman the reason why I am asking this is Mr Kruser was asked specifically as to what the nature of the instructions were and he was quite clear that the retaliation from security guards were to be aimed at persons whom the security guards saw shooting.  I am referring to page 2882 at lines 22 to 25 of the record Mr Chair.  That was Mr Kruser's evidence that the understanding was that the guards would be firing at people amongst the crowd who they see shooting.

MR LAX: Mr Dorfling did Kruser brief this witness or did somebody else brief this witness?  That's really the issue. What Kruser may have said you don't know, he may not even know.  I'm just - to be fair to the witness if Kruser didn't brief him then rather put the person's evidence who briefed him in that regard.

MR DORFLING: : Mr Chair with respect to the honourable committee member, this witness was specifically confronted with this portion of evidence at the time of the inquest.  He was specifically asked how this didn't come to his knowledge and that's the reason I'm repeating this question because the response doesn't seem to be identical.
	Were you aware of any instructions Sir that you had to direct your fire if there was an attack at the marchers who you saw shooting?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Not according to my recollection.

MR DORFLING: Are you saying Sir that if there was such an instruction it never came to your knowledge, or can you simply not remember whether you had such an instruction or not?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: The instruction that I remember is the one that I already told this Committee.

MR DORFLING: : Mr Moolman is it your evidence that on the day you would have been prepared to fire in the direction of a crowd on your evidence charging forward regardless of whether you saw any firearms?  Just shoot in the general direction of the crowd?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I think these were the people who were attacking not just marching.

MR DORFLING: : Is that your evidence that you would fire in the general direction of the crowd without identifying individuals who were aiming fire in your direction?  Sorry may I just complete the question.  Or would you specifically look for individuals carrying firearms and directing their fire at you before you would retaliate?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Sir you speak of identifying individuals within the group but when you speak of attackers all of them will be attackers.  You can't say individuals within a group of attackers those are the only people who will be attacking, all of them, because they are attackers they will engage in the act of attacking.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words whether they had a firearm or not?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct Chair.

MR DORFLING: : Mr Moolman you were halfway down the block between Plein and de Villiers Streets on the King George side of the parapet.  You could see the - as you perceived them to be, attackers approaching.  They were coming from north to south in King George Street.  Did you just shoot in the general direction without aiming at an individual?  Is that your evidence?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I shot at the attackers Sir.

MR DORFLING: G: By attackers you mean the whole crowd that was coming forward?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: : Who fired the first shot from the parapet?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: According to my recollection it's myself.

MR DORFLING: : Have you got a clear picture of you having fired the first shot from the parapet that day?  Have you got a clear picture in your mind of that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I said according to my recollection I am the first one to shoot.

MR DORFLING: : Was that also your recollection at the time of you giving evidence at the inquest proceedings?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct that was my recollection.

MR DORFLING: : Mr Molefe may I refer you to page 3442 of ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry it's Mr Moolman.

MR DORFLING: : I beg you pardon Mr Chair.  Mr Moolman may I refer you to page 3442 of the record.  I am particularly interested in lines three to 5.  You were asked the following question.

MR DORFLING: "Just before you started shooting did anybody else on the parapet start shooting before you?

WITNESS:  Yes.  Who shot first? --- Jakwe opened fire.

MR DORFLING: 		Did you see him shooting?

WITNESS: I did not see him shoot I heard him open fire."

MR DORFLING: And now on that portion of the record you seem to indicate to Mr Justice Nugent that Jakwe, referring to Mr Jakwe Molefe, fired the first shot.  Is that not correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: According to my recollection I am the first person to shoot from the parapet.

MR DORFLING: : Was that evidence before Mr Justice Nugent from you incorrect, is that your evidence?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I would say yes.