Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-31

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, I used it - the one that I referred to before.

MR WILLS: Now did you aim this at any particular person, when you were shooting were you aiming at any particular person?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I didn't aim at a particular person, I just shot at the direction from where the shots were coming from.

MR WILLS: Can you, - you've said that Mr Shandu shouted outside and then the police indicated it was the police, can you tell the Committee what happened thereafter?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: After Shandu shouted asking who they were, the police replied saying, we are the police.  After that the police said Shandu should open the door.  Shandu asked, aren't you going to shoot us and they said no we won't and they insisted that he open the door.

MR WILLS: Yes, and then what happened?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Shandu opened the door and after opening the door they told him to raise his hands and put them on top of his head, both of them and get out of the house.

MR WILLS: Yes, and then what happened?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: They searched him and also took him outside and they instructed him to lie down on the ground on his stomach and they were pointing a firearm behind, from behind while he was lying on the ground.  After that Vusi came, he's my brother who - he were with us.  They also searched him and they also instructed him to lie on the floor on his stomach, they also pointed a firearm behind him while lying on the ground.
	The third one was myself.  They also searched me and they told me to go and lie on the floor on my stomach.  After that they woke me up, they picked me up, grabbed me and picked me up and put - and drove me back - pushed me back into the house.  There were three policemen.  While, after entering the house they said I must point a firearm.  I entered the kitchen with them and I pointed the firearm next to a kitchen scheme.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say, point a firearm or point out a firearm?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say, point a firearm or did they say he must point out a firearm?  Perhaps I should explain that translated into English in that way - point a firearm usually means point a firearm at a person.  If they say point out a firearm, it means show them where it is.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: They said I must point out a firearm.  I pointed out the firearm and they said - they pushed me towards the gun and said I must pick it up.  They were pointing guns at me standing by the kitchen door and they were saying I must pick it up and if I don't pick it up, they're going to shoot me.  While they were pointing the firearms at me saying that I should pick up the firearm and if I don't they going to shoot me, I kicked it because I thought they were going to shoot me.  	After that I didn't see what happened however, even if I have told them that they mustn't shoot me, I do know what happened.  I remember the last time I remembered was when I said,  pleading with them that they mustn't shoot me.  I don't remember what happened after I took the firearm because they were pointing guns at me and saying that I shot their friend.  One of them took out a gun and pointed it at me and said I shot his friend.  After that I woke up at Wentworth, I regained my consciousness at Wentworth Hospital.

MR WILLS: Mr Mthembu I can see that you have a wound on the left side of your forehead, it's very apparent.  Is that the wound that you sustained on the day in question?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that's where they shot me.

MR WILLS: Now how long did you spend in hospital?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I don't remember well, I would say it was about four weeks or five.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee what occurred after you were released from hospital?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: They took me from Wentworth to Stanga Hospital where I stayed for one week.  Thereafter they took me and charged me.  That's where I heard that at the time when we were attacked and I shot in retaliation, one police was injured.

MR WILLS: Sorry, did you say that was the first time that you realised that somebody was injured, possible by yourself?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That was the first day coming from hospital that I discovered that I shot someone during the day when we were fighting or shooting at each other.

MR WILLS: Do you remember that at about that time that you made a statement to the police in regard to the incident?  That was after you had come out of hospital.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I remember the statement that I gave to the police.

MR WILLS: In fact that was made on the 30th of September 1992, is that correct?  Committee members I'm referring to the exhibit that commences at page 48 of the bundle and continues until page 55.   Did you tell the truth in this statement?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I will say I didn't tell the truth in that statement, I was afraid.  Secondly, I wasn't well because I was just out from hospital.

MR WILLS: Members of the Committee, in this regard I refer to Exhibit A as it's relevant at this stage and I specifically refer to page 4.  It's the 4th page but actually listed page 3 of Doctor Lashishe's report and particularly the paragraph entitled Opinion and I specifically refer to the final sentence of the psychiatric report and I quote
"It is questionable whether on 30th of September 1992 he was competent and/or able to appreciate the legal implications of making a statement to the police".
	Obviously the reasons for that opinion are more fully set out in the body of the report.
	Mr Mthembu you referred to somebody earlier in your evidence as Vusi, that being Israel Vusimusi Mtule, is that correct, the person you travelled with today?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, it is Vusi

MR WILLS: And Vusi was in the house with you that night?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, he was in the house.

MR WILLS: Now just for clarity, you indicated to the Committee when you were in the kitchen with the police and they were pointing firearms at you and ordering you to pick up the firearm, did you actually touch the firearm with your hands?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I didn't pick it up with my hands, I was afraid that they were going to shoot me.

MR WILLS: You didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear ...(inaudible)

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I said when they insisted that I should pick it up, I didn't pick it up.   I ended up kicking it up, kicking it with my foot towards their direction.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Sorry, there's one final incident.  I have some photographs here and I must apologise to the members of the Committee, I have only got one set of these photographs but if I can just show you these photographs.  I just want you to peruse those photographs and tell me if they are photographs taken of the house and the interior of the house at 1658 Sindumbele, i.e. Mr Shandu's house.  Just look at the photographs please.  Are those photographs of both the exterior and the interior, certain interior parts of Mr Shandu's house?
	Just place on record that I've shown about thirteen photographs there, busy going through each of them.
	Are you in a position to tell us?  Can you tell the Committee whether or not those are photographs taken from Shandu's house.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: These pictures they show the house of Mr Shandu after the incidents, all of them.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Now returning to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR WILLS: Yes sorry, I apologise Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There are sixteen photographs in the ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: There are sixteen photographs in the bundle.  I think they can be referred to as Exhibit D.  Are you going to refer to any of them individually?
EXHIBIT D HANDED IN

MR WILLS: No, I'm not going to refer to, it's just to give the Committee an idea of the ...(intervention)