Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

ADV DE JAGER: Did you see Mr Costello there at this protest?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, I did not see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say when they left, they left him behind?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I was trying to say that his house, as his house was next to the hall, when they moved from the hall, they left, they did not get inside Mr Costello's yard, they went straight to the second beach.  That is what I was trying to explain.

MR SMUTS: Mr Hermans, I received instructions during the lunch hour, that Mr Costello runs a guest house.  Are you in a position to contest that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, I cannot dispute that but the guest house that is there, is actually far from Mr Costello's house and it does not belong to him.

MR SMUTS: What does that mean, that you are contesting that he runs a guest house, or that you do not contest that he runs a guest house?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I do not dispute that, though I did not hear anything about it.

MR SMUTS: If that were indeed so, it may explain gatherings of people and vehicles, might it not?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question?

MR SMUTS: If indeed he was running a guest house, that could explain why there could be gatherings of people and numerous vehicles assembled at one place?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, I understand that, but I am not sure if that is the case, if that was the case.

MR SMUTS: You will concede that there could be a perfectly innocent explanation which has no political connection, to gatherings of people at his home?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Will you please repeat your question?

MR SMUTS: You will concede that there could be a perfectly innocent explanation, which has nothing to do with a political organisation, explaining gatherings of people at his home?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I don't have anything except what I have just mentioned.

MR SMUTS: If I might take you back then to your reconnaissance exercise down to the camp on the day of the shootings.  What did you find when you got down to the camp?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We did not see anything, except the people that I told you about, the people that we saw.

MR SMUTS: Which people were those?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: The woman who said she was working there, and the child that we saw at the place.

MR SMUTS: There would have been two vehicles there Mr Hermans, did you not see those?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I cannot say whether I saw them or not, but I did not take note.  I cannot say that they were not there or they were there.

MR SMUTS: There would have been two women and four small children, who were in and out of the accommodation in which they were staying on that morning?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I heard so, but I don't know, I hear that, but I don't know anything about that.

MR SMUTS: And do you recall that during your trial, Ms O'Keeffee who is sitting in the front row, gave evidence that she passed a person who was walking through the camp that morning and that she pointed you out as that person?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Are you talking about the State witness?

MR SMUTS: Yes.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, I do remember that.

MR SMUTS: Do you - can you tender any explanation as to why she would have given such evidence if it were not true?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Please repeat the question.

MR SMUTS: She gave that evidence, and she identified you as the person.  You were the person, a person who was at the gate that morning, were you not?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the dispute Mr Smuts?

MR SMUTS: The witness Mr Chairman, denies having seen anybody other than the person employed there and a child.  Do you persist in suggesting that you did not see the two white women and the four children, well, more than one child there on the morning at the camp?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember if you saw her at the camp that morning?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I said at the camping site, I saw a lady who said she was working there and this child only.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you dispute that she saw you in that area that morning?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Are you talking about the witness, the place that he was talking about is far away from the camp, it is not even at the place, so there are two different things.
	At the camping site, I saw the people I said I saw them.  The person who claimed to have seen me, saw me somewhere else, outside the camp, not right inside the camp.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you see this lady sitting here, Ms O'Keeffee at the camp on that morning?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, I did not see her.

MR SMUTS: Once you saw that there was a child at the camp, did you make any enquiries from the lady to whom you were speaking, as to whether there were children in the fishing party?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: No, I did not ask her.

MR SMUTS: Why not?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I have already said that we were under, we were very angry about something that had happened.  There would be things that we couldn't do.  Secondly we were in a hurry, we wanted to do whatever, very quick.  After gathering that information that some men had gone to fishing, we decided to wait for the people who had gone fishing.

MR SMUTS: Did it not matter to you whether there might be children amongst them?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That doesn't mean that we didn't care.

MR SMUTS: What steps did you take to avert the possibility that children might be injured in the attack which you were to launch?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We anticipated that we would be able to see a car, a child if he or she is inside the car.  Thereafter we didn't anticipate anything.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, I don't quite follow what your answer was.  We anticipated that we would see children in the car, thereafter we didn't anticipate anything.  What are you trying to convey to us?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I am trying to say that we were not prepared for anything before we could see the car, as we had to ensure that there were no children in the car, we thought that we would be able to see the car at the time of the attack, to see if there were children in the car.

MR SMUTS: Wasn't it the instruction that Mr Nyalukana's focus should be on whether there were any black people in the car?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: What was important for us, was for him to check whether there were whites in the car and there was no African, there was no black person in the car.
	There was no specific instruction, we were just discussing, so he took it from there.  It was not that he was instructed to do so.
	He took it from what we were discussing.

MR SMUTS: But your concern was as to whether there might be black people in the vehicle, there was no concern as to whether there might be children in the vehicle?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I said so, that we were also careful not to attack the children, because they were not out target.

MR SMUTS: Who was to keep the lookout then, if you were now careful as to the presence of children or not, who was to watch out as to whether there were children or not?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That was a responsibility of all the people who were left in the car, during the attack?

MR SMUTS: When the 4 x 4 then approached with its five occupants, what positions did the various members of your group take up?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We were, all of us were standing next to the car.   The one who was inside, was the one who was going to give a signal by hooting.

MR SMUTS: Where were those who were to fire upon the vehicle?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: As I have already said, they were just behind the - they were somewhere, after the bakkie had taken a curve, they were somewhere there, just behind the curve, where the bakkie was shot.