Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

I D BOSCH: No, Chairperson, I cannot remember who told me that, that's my problem.  I don't know it it's McCarter who told me, I don't know what he told me, I don't know when he told me all of this.  It would have been very much easier for myself if I knew this and then I could tell.

MR MALAN: You would have made it much easier for us as well.

I D BOSCH: Yes, I know, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Because if we are not satisfied that you are telling us the truth, whether we want to or not we cannot give you amnesty.

I D BOSCH: I realise that, Chairperson but I really cannot remember.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Bosch, seen in that light - you also heard the evidence of McCarter with regards to exactly what happened at the shooting incident and also what happened to the body of the deceased, the fact that he was thrown over the cliff, seen in the light of the problems you have remembering as you sit here today is it possible that Mr McCarter's version is true?

I D BOSCH: Yes, it could be the correct version.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Surely a man would not come here and admit that he'd a body over a precipice if he did not indeed do that?

I D BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Bosch, we are provided with an affidavit of Mr Ernest Ramatala, and I'm sure it will be handed in later by Mr Prior as soon as Mr Ramatala is called, there are just two aspects I want to discuss with you.  Firstly I'd like to tell you that Mr Ramatala says amongst other, that during this incident Mr de Kock was on leave, that was when you were sent from Vlakplaas to Durban.  Can you remember if that is indeed the truth?

I D BOSCH: Yes, it could be correct, I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: And Mr Ramatala says further that his recollection is that you, Mr Bosch, drove in a beige BMW.  It's not quite evident from the affidavit but can you remember something like that, can you remember coming with a BMW from Pretoria to Durban?

I D BOSCH: Yes, I do remember.  Mr de Kock's vehicle was the white BMW and I when he was on leave I drove it, so he must have been on leave.  ...(transcriber's own translation)

MR HUGO: Then Mr Ramatala also said in his affidavit that there were order groups which were addressed by McCarter.  Did you ever attend these order groups, the ones which were addressed by Mr McCarter?

I D BOSCH: Maybe some of them, maybe not all of them but it wasn't really my working area, my work area, my field of work was in the Eastern Transvaal.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Bosch, you are a trained policeman, is that correct?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: And you know the importance of an affidavit?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: And when you prepared your affidavit were you legally assisted?

I D BOSCH: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: I saw you nod your head and look at the legal representative, did you think of denying that you were legally represented?

I D BOSCH: No, Chairperson, I made two statements, one without a legal representative and one with one.

MR NGUBANE: Alright.  Now in your statement when you mentioned the people who were with you when this operation was undertaken, you categorically stated their names, do you recall?

I D BOSCH: Please repeat your question.

MR NGUBANE: In your statement when - let's look at page 15, paragraph 2, you mention Michael and Spyker as well as a black member of Vlakplaas who you think is Aubrey Mgade, Frank McCarter and Rosslee as well as Wasserman, do you agree?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: And there was nothing preventing you from saying that "I do not recall who the people were but I think that those people were this and this and this one", is that right?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I know Michael and Spyker worked together in Durban and my recollection tells me that Spyker and Michael were there that evening.  Mr McCarter says something.  I don't want to dispute that, I don't want to admit or deny it.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  No, my question in just simple, in your affidavit at no stage did you say "I think that so and so was present but I'm not sure", do you agree?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, coming to what you have said now, McCarter said something else and you don't want to say he is lying, is that right?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, maybe his memory is better than mine which I actually think might be the case.

MR NGUBANE: Is it not the position that you want your evidence to be as corroborative as you can of that of Mr McCarter?

I D BOSCH: No, Chairperson, not at all.

MR NGUBANE: In any event Mr McCarter was your senior, is that right?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: And when he was your senior you didn't want to contradict him, is that right?

I D BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Now Taylor, on the day of this incident did you personally meet Mr Taylor?

I D BOSCH: I saw Taylor in the park.

MR NGUBANE: You didn't meet him at CR Swart Square, is that right?

I D BOSCH: Not as far as I can remember, no.

MR NGUBANE: What was he doing in the park?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, everybody just stood around and waited.

MR NGUBANE: Did you speak to Mr Taylor in the park?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, because it was only my second time in Durban - I met Taylor before but I wasn't really on such a level with him that I would speak to him.  I respected him and I greeted him and that was it.

MR NGUBANE: How much time did you spend with Mr Taylor in the park?

I D BOSCH: One whole day, Sir.

MR NGUBANE: Pardon?

I D BOSCH: One whole day, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Now this comrade policeman, you stay with him in the park for the whole day, you only greet him and you don't speak to him any further?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, we did not speak about Bhila, maybe I spoke to him about other things, irrelevant things.

MR NGUBANE: My question was simple, I did not ask whether you spoke to him about Bhila or not, I asked you whether you spoke to him and you told me an irrelevant thing, that you only greeted him.  If there were other irrelevant things, can you tell me why you didn't tell me about that?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I did not make small talk with Colonel Taylor, if he asked me something I would have answered him but I did not talk with him, I did not chat with him.

MR NGUBANE: Well those irrelevant things, were they not small talk?

I D BOSCH: It can be small talk, Sir.

MR NGUBANE: So you are contradicting yourself, you say you didn't conduct small talk with Taylor and in the same breath you say that you spoke about irrelevant things which could be small talk, do you understand yourself?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I'm saying maybe I could have discussed irrelevant things with Mr Taylor or made small talk, but I cannot say that I did not or I did.

MR NGUBANE: Did Mr Taylor in the park at any stage indicate to you that Bhila was an ANC man?

I D BOSCH: It's possible, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Are you suggesting that you can't recall?

I D BOSCH: I cannot recall.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell when - just collect your mind now, can you tell when you learnt that Bhila was an ANC man, was it in the park or was it where he was assassinated or was it on your way back from the assassination?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, as far as I can remember someone told me, I don't know if it was Frank or someone else in the park or on the way there, is that this person was an ANC trained person and he was connected with the bomb explosions and on the way back he informed me that he was involved in a court case and that hew as acquitted.  That is the way I remember it.