Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-02

CHAIRPERSON: Now what that policeman will come say if he comes to testify but it's been put to you on the policeman's behalf, is that what you are telling us is not quite true because he was the person, he claims at this stage, he hasn't testified yet, he is claiming that he was the person inside you encountered, most probably crying there and his pistol was on the floor, who was injured during that incident, three times.  What do you say about that?  On version he must not be telling us the truth then?  Or he will not come tell us the truth if he does come testify that?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I am not in a position to say a person is lying or telling the truth but what I'm sure about, the fact that I'm telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Come Mr Mamani, yes, then he is not telling us the truth if he comes to tell us that.  The situation can only be one way, it can't be both ways, can it?  Not so?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?

JUDGE POTGIETER: Just a minute.  Mr Mamani, what did you mean, you told us earlier that you might be mistaken.  Now what did you mean by that?  What might you be mistaken about?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: If ever a policeman says that the police who sustained injuries was the one who was inside and I'm saying that the policeman who sustained injuries was outside.  First of all I am here to ask for forgiveness.  I do not want to find myself opposing the procedures.

CHAIRPERSON: You can come to that, I'm going to give you an opportunity to say all those things just now.  What Mr Potgieter has asked you to explain is about 15 minutes ago you said well you might be mistaken about something and none of us understood what you meant by being mistaken.  I did ask you the question and you didn't deal with it.  What might you be mistaken about?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Perhaps I am mistaken about the policeman who was injured and the other thing that I would like to request the  Commission to take note of is the fact that at the time some things were not planned, they just happened, but when you sit down and try to remember what happened, it comes as I'm relating it to the Commission right now.  Maybe I'm making a mistake as to which policeman was injured between the two.

MR MAPOMA: So if I understand you well, are you saying this policeman who says he was injured, he might well have been injured during that incident, is that what you're saying?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: He got injured during the raid at the police station at Frankfort, yes I agree with that.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
	Now you have told the Commission that you came to the Ciskei without firearms.  Do you know where the sub-machine guns were coming from?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was told where they were from.  I know.  the sub-machine guns - a day after our arrival there were sub-machine guns.  On my first night I spent at Fort Hare with the comrades that I came from in Exile.  When I met my comrades the following day they told me that there were arms available, we'll go to the police station the following day.  We got seven sub-machine guns.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now you have also said that you were part of the bodyguards guarding Chris Hani.  Were these bodyguards national bodyguards or were they provincial?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was in the provincial level at the Western Cape.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So when would you meet Chris Hani, would you meet Chris Hani when he has visited your province or whenever you want to meet him?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I didn't meet him whenever I wanted to but only when he was visiting our province.  I would be guarding him or if I was busy on duty guarding another leader, somebody else would guard him.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You went to Frankfort Police Station to rob or to fetch firearms.  Did you know what kind of firearms you were going to get there?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: No, we did not know what kind of firearms we were going to get there but one thing that we knew certainly was that there would be sub-machine guns in the police stations and pistols as well.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now there at Frankfort, after you have checked and saw that one policeman was shot at and then you got inside again, now what happened to the policeman who was inside the police station at the charge office?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: When he went out of the door of the charge office, I do not know what happened, when did it happen but I was with him inside although we did not stay inside for long but when we got outside I advised him to run away, he would not be killed but he did not trust that but he insisted that he is on duty, he doesn't want to go away but I advised him to go away but there was this constant firing that was happening.  He went away and we also went on foot, we ran away.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So did he leave before you inside the police station or you went out of the police station together?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: As I have mentioned, I do not remember who went out first but I remember clearly telling him to run away, I told him to disappear and he did that and we were firing in the air and we also ran away.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now when he ran away, was it dark outside or was there a light which was providing you to be able to see what was happening?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: It was dark.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you got out of the police station were there shots still fired outside?  Now you got out of the charge office, now you are inside the yard but outside the charge office, were there shots still being fired by whoever?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes there was still constant firing.  It was noisy at that time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

ADV SIBANYONI: Mr Mamani, what is your MK name?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: I was called Chocho.  C-H-O-C-H-O, Chocho Sekola, S-E-K-O-L-A.

ADV SIBANYONI: Now the instruction to acquire firearms or weapons from Chris Hani, was it directed to you or was it directed to you commanders?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Chris was talking to me personally on that day because I was accompanying him.

ADV SIBANYONI: Isn't it so that ANC had a supply of firearms from outside?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: That is true, ANC had it's ammunition, armoury supply from outside.

ADV SIBANYONI: You are saying that despite that you were requested to also acquire firearms on the ground level?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Firstly, the armoury that was inside the country were being used by the units that were existent that as I have mentioned that I came back after indemnity in 1991, I didn't come back with any armoury from outside the country.  Whatever supply was there it belonged to certain units.

ADV SIBANYONI: This incident happened in 1991, March 1991, was there still problems in the Eastern Cape more specially around Frankfort?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: What problems are you referring to sir?

ADV SIBANYONI: Problems which necessitated you people to acquire firearms.

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: Yes.

ADV SIBANYONI: What were those problems?

MOSES VUYANI MAMANI: These problems were not only pertaining in the Western Cape or in the Eastern Cape where we got the weapons, they were country wide.  Raids that were State financed, that were perhaps emerging from Pretoria that were perpetrated by third force elements forced the need to ensure the protection of the communities or else to make sure that those attacks do not happen again and we were the only ones, the soldiers of uMkhonto weSizwe who could or rather who were told to play the role of defending the communities against the raids.

ADV SIBANYONI: Now were there formal structures of SDUs at Mdantsane where you were staying?