bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-14

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I wanted to say to the Mashamahite family, parents, relatives, I had not specifically targeted Mashamahite because I hated him per se.  We never had any personal problems with him or his family, but what I want to point out is that Mr Mashamahite as he was working under the apartheid regime he became an inevitable target, not because of any personal reasons or because we wanted to fight the Mashamahite family.  It is possible that Mr Mashamahite was the breadwinner.  This is a very painful situation that I killed a breadwinner.
	Same happens to me, if a person could kill a breadwinner in my house whether for political reasons or any other reasons or ulterior motive, a person is a creation of God and as a result I would like to say that I want to ask for forgiveness from you.  It was not a personal thing or for personal gain.  I feel very sorry for what I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Does that conclude what you wanted to present to us?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, that concludes the applicant's case, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Mapoma, what is the position with the family?  Is there any material you want to place before us, any testimony?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, I'm not calling any witness from the victims family.  They have indicated that they do not desire to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me, Chairperson, there's only one issue perhaps I may raise for the record, Chairperson, that the wife of the deceased, I've got her names and particulars in the event that the Committee may want to need them at some point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you have that?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.  Her names are Musibudi Constance.  Musibudi.  I hope my spelling will be correct, M-U-S-I-B-U-D-I Constance Mashamahite is the wife of the deceased policeman, Mr Alfred Mashamahite.

MR LAX: Do you have details of any other dependents?

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately not, Chairperson, I just have her details as a victim, as the wife of the deceased.

MR LAX: Perhaps you could just canvass that later after the proceedings have closed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, sir, I'll do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Well, I think it's over to you.
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-17

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, again in this matter we intend to follow a similar course of action to let this matter stand down further until tomorrow morning also at 9 o'clock or as soon after that as we can deal with the matter in order to give us an opportunity to consider whether we might be in a position to also deliver a decision in this particular matter.  So, under those circumstances, I am adjourning the proceedings until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock or as soon thereafter as we can commence.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

MR SHAYI: May I beg Mr Chairman's indulgence in ...(indistinct), I thought that my colleague was actually busy perusing it.  Mr Chairman, according to the instructions that I have, that are relayed to me by my colleague here, it seems as if it's just a general layout of how the SDU's would actually operate and this is actually listed on page 64 of the submission of the ANC of documents itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Is that the testimony of the applicant?

MR SHAYI: That would be the case for the applicant, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp, is there any other witness?

ADV STEENKAMP: No further witnesses, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are you able to address us, Mr Shayi?

MR SHAYI: Mr Chairman, we actually were of the opinion that we would actually move for an adjournment until tomorrow morning for summation.  Before doing that I would actually move for an application after having consulted with client on the three weapons that are mentioned in the affidavit, to likewise move for an amendment to actually seek amnesty in relation to those other weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I just want to understand, are you saying you're not in a position to address us?

MR SHAYI: Yes, maybe tomorrow morning, Mr Chairman, if an indulgence can be sought, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we have reached about quarter past four in the afternoon.  We have unfortunately through circumstances which could not be controlled by us entirely, not been able to commence at the normal time this morning.  I am about adjourn the proceedings but perhaps before I do that, were you going to make the application for the amendment now or what is your position in regard to it?  Can I just get clarity on that as well?

MR SHAYI: If the Committee allows I'm made to actually move the application from where I am, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, you are able to motivate one if you so wish.  Did you intend to do it now?

MR SHAYI: That will be in order, Mr Chairman.  May I just be given a short recess, maybe two minutes just to consult with him or maybe I can bring it prior the summation tomorrow morning?

CHAIRPERSON: No, okay, if you're not in a position to do it straight away then I'm going to adjourn the proceedings in any event until tomorrow.  So you might as well bring your application for the amendment and to address us on the merits of the application then tomorrow morning.

MR SHAYI: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: We will be adjourning the proceedings	 now until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock when we will reconvene and finalise the matter which we are presently hearing.  We're adjourned.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-13

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  There is no need to do that under oath, and therefore we will allow Mr Manyamala to speak from where he is.

MR SHAYI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manyamala, your legal representative has indicated that you wish to address some further remarks in regard to the application.  Would you please proceed to do so?

MR MANYAMALA: First of all I would like the people to fix the headphones for me, my reception is very poor here ... (tape ends) ... by the government, the apartheid government.  I don't have anything else to say, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Manyamala, for those sentiments.  You have referred to your testimony yesterday and you expressed an opinion on the manner in which you had testified, but can I just put on record on behalf of this panel and my colleagues here, whom I know very well, you know, your matter will be considered as any other matter, professionally and objectively.
	We are not sitting in an ivory tower, we understand the emotions that people have and we understand that often these proceedings are not easy things to handle, thank you.
	Mr Shayi, do you wish to address us on the merits of this matter?

MR SHAYI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, this is an application by Mr Manyamala for an incident that took place on the 3rd of February 1993 in which Mr Stephanus Froneman was murdered or killed and Ms Ruth Jennifer Barker, was injured during the process and he was charged with attempted murder and subsequently convicted and sentenced.
	Under the circumstances when he was actually brought before the Court of law, he was charged with robbery with aggravating circumstances and illegal possession of a firearm, and illegal possession of ammunition as well.
	He is serving respectively a death sentence, 18 months, three and six months.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat that?  Is it a death sentence, that is subject to reconsideration by the panel?

MR SHAYI: That is correct.  That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you say, what are the rest of the sentences?
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-13

CHAIRPERSON: Well, gentlemen, I thank you again for your assistance.  We will need a bit of time to consider the matter and to formulate a decision, and we will notify the parties once we are ready to release the decision in this matter.
	The decision would be reserved.

ADV STEENKAMP: As you wish Mr Chairman.
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-13

MOLAHLENE STANLEY WANYANE: Mr Chairperson, I will begin with the events on the morning of the 27th.  I said when we left, that our departure was set for five o'clock on the 27th.  We had agreed that I would meet Ben, this Ben here, and Shakes at Zone 2 and we would collect Batandwa Godlo at his home.
	But unfortunately on that morning, I arrived very late at the agreed spot, over an hour late, because I slept very late the previous night, as I was preparing for my examinations.
	We collected Batandwa Godlo at his home that morning after six o'clock I think.  We instructed Ben Masiso the applicant here, to drive, because he was more experienced in driving.  Shakes was seated with him at the front passenger seat, Batandwa was seated at the back on the left and I was seated at the back on the right side of the car we were travelling in.  That was a blue Citi Golf.
	The following weapons Mr Chairperson, were transferred to Tsepo at Hlobane, two Stashkin pistols, two macaroff pistols, ammunition, one AK47, one RGD5 hand grenade and an F1 hand grenade.

CHAIRPERSON: Just go a bit slower Mr Wanyane.  There was two macaroffs, what else?

MOLAHLENE STANLEY WANYANE: Two macaroffs, two Stashkin pistols, ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Ammunition for those pistols?

MOLAHLENE STANLEY WANYANE: Yes, they use the same rounds.  One RGD5 hand grenade.

CHAIRPERSON: R25?

MOLAHLENE STANLEY WANYANE: RGD5.

CHAIRPERSON: Hand grenade?

MOLAHLENE STANLEY WANYANE: Hand grenade and an F1 hand grenade, including one AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: F1 hand grenade and one AK47 rifle?
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-13

MR MHLABA: Mr Chairman, in fact I wanted to suggest to the Committee that if the evidence of Mr Wanyane covers everybody as I believe it does, I only wanted only the, his co-applicants just to confirm the facts in so far as it relates to them.

CHAIRPERSON: That seems to be a sensible way of dealing with the matter and my colleagues are in agreement with me that that seems to make perfect sense under the circumstances.
	It will be the most effective way of dealing with the matter.  Certainly we don't have any difficulty if you were to simply do that.

MR MHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the second applicant to confirm that after an oath has been administered to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Will he be speaking in ...

MR MHLABA: He will also be testifying in English Mr Chairman.
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-13

BATANDWA GODLO: (sworn states)

MR MHLABA: Mr Godlo, you have listened to the testimony of Mr Wanyane, who is your co-applicant in this matter, and very often your name was mentioned and do you confirm the contents of the testimony of Mr Wanyane, in so far as it relates to you, to be the truth?

BATANDWA GODLO: Yes Mr Chairman.  I confirm everything that Stanley said here.  That is nothing else but the truth.

MR MHLABA: Thank you Mr Godlo.  Mr Chairman, that concludes the testimony of Mr Godlo.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

MR MHLABA: Mr Chairman, I beg leave to call the third applicant Mr Masiso to confirm, after an oath has been administered.

CHAIRPERSON: There won't be any problem.  Adv Steenkamp, I assume that there are no questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, thank you.  Once again, on behalf of Mr Moletsani and in the spirit of reconciliation, he is not opposing the application of the other two applicants as well.
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well I'm not at all aware of how their trial progressed.  I was a prisoner, I had already started serving my sentence, prison term, and I'm not sure what documentation they received and what had happened at their trial.

MR KOTZE: Well I would just like to say Mr Holder denied firing any shots in that guardroom.

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well Sir then it must have been the co-guard who had been present there.

MR KOTZE: But you are sure that only two shots had been fired?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No, three shots

MR KOTZE: Three shots?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: As far as I can remember, yes.

MR KOTZE: Messrs Holder and Van Zyl alleged that if they had been aware that the objective had been only to try and obtain two firearms they would never have participated in the operation?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well Sir, as I had stated previously, they understood very clearly what the objective was and nevertheless they participated.

MR KOTZE: And they further allege that there had been no agreement regarding the division of firearms, they accepted that it would be divided but depending on somebody else's decision besides themselves, so are you saying that on that evening you had said to them you're going to get one and I'm going to get one or would it depend on how the evening progressed?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well I'd say it would have depended more on how the evening progressed, one cannot count your chickens before they're hatched, one had to see how many firearms and then make the decision.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOTZE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo any further questions?

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay I am going to take the lunch break.  Is that the testimony of the first applicant?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, I would just like to consider my position during this break so that we can make a decision regarding my position regarding any further applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  We will adjourn for lunch and we will reconvene at 2 o'clock.  We're adjourned.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-03

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, for tomorrow it will be incident number 5 - it is Zola Mabala, Khotle and Mafanya.  These are the matters coming up tomorrow.  There are two incidents but separate operatives.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  One's got three applicants, one's got two.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: One has got two.

CHAIRPERSON: But the two are in both.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In both bundles and both incidents will be heard tomorrow.  That is the only matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes until what time should adjourn tomorrow?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, it will do no harm if we adjourn till 10 again tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: 10 o'clock.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We shall finish this one as well.  Thank Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, thank you.  That brings this to the end of this hearing.  The decision will be handed down later.  We will be sitting again tomorrow at this venue in which two further applications will be heard and we will be commencing at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning in this hall so we'll now adjourn till 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-04

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody, I apologise for the late start today but apparently there were difficulties in getting one of the applicants here today, that was the reason for the delay.  Before we start I'd just like to introduce the panel to you.  On my right is Advocate Johnny Motata, he's an advocate from Johannesburg.  On my left is Advocate Francis Bosman, she is from the Cape and I'm Selwyn Miller, a Judge from the Eastern Cape attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court there.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS INTERPRETATION EQUIPMENT

CHAIRPERSON: I'll just ask the legal representatives to please place themselves on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.  My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo and I'm appearing on behalf of the applicants in this matter.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chair and Members of the Committee.  J.M. Mpshe for the Commission, Amnesty in particular, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and this is the application of Messrs Mabala, Khotle and Mafanya.  Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my first applicant will be Mosuiwa Khotle, Mosuiwa Isiah Khotle, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khotle do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation of the truth?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Khotle, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee, do you confirm that the affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, we'll receive this affidavit then as Exhibit A.
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-04

ADV MOTATA: I have no problem then because when I read your affidavit, I'll repeat, "On Wednesday" I want you to read it with me.  The seventh line from the top.
"On Wednesday, on that week when we were in Heilbron during the night on Wednesday"
You see, now my question is, you were saying it was in the evening and you had to ambush a police van.  Either it took another direction or you came after it had gone past.  Would I be understanding this correctly?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: I requesting that you repeat your question, maybe I don't understand you clearly?

ADV MOTATA: So let's put it crisply, because it was in the evening, what was the visibility like where you were standing at the kerb?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: We did not have light.

ADV MOTATA: But you were able to identify a police car?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: If I remember well, it had the SAP registration, if I remember well.

ADV MOTATA: But you were able to identify that it was a police car?  Could you see the occupants of that car?

MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: Even if they were black policemen we would attack them.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: None Mr Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Khotle, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-04

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got an initial there?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No initial, just Mrs Concer and children.  Their address is 146 Villiers Road, Walmer, Port Elizabeth.
	The driver of the vehicle, Mr Daniel de Bruin, 55 Livingstone Boulevard, Vanderbijlpark.  
	That is all Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Captain Snyman and Rossouw?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Captain Rossouw's it is in the affidavit, Mr Chairman, the Exhibit B.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I just want to have it on the list because when I do the decision, I've got to put it there and if - but's it's now, is Rossouw still in the police force?  Is it just Mr Rossouw.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No more in the police force.  It's only Captain Snyman who is still in the force, that is the gentleman who testified, he is still in the force.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I've got the address for Mr Rossouw here on the affidavit and the other one is Captain P.D. Snyman.  Do you have the address there?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I don't have his full address expect SAPS Heilbron.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's fine, any place that he can be contacted at.  What's it SAPS, Heilbron?  Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be all Mr Chairman and that concludes the hearing for today, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, Mr Mpshe.  We'll then adjourn until tomorrow.  Tomorrow we have the last of this weeks hearings on the roll and Mr Mpshe what will be a convenient time to commence that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, we can still start tomorrow at 10 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This I've conveyed to even the lawyer for the victims, they are aware of the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Good and then I hope that all the applicants will be here on time and don't have to come from Vereeniging and start after lunch.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not blaming anyone it's just these things happen but I'm just saying I hope it doesn't happen again.  Thank you, that brings us to the end of today's hearing.  We will be resuming with a fresh hearing tomorrow at the same venue.  We'll be starting that at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.  So we'll now adjourn until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MR VAN DEN BERG: If you look at Exhibit C you will see that on the 28th February 1979 you were sentenced to five years imprisonment for armed robbery, apparently involving the use of a panga, do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Is that correct?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes it is.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then in 1983 on the 12th September 1983 you received two prison sentences, the first one of four years for the theft of a motor vehicle and the second of ten years for another armed robbery, this time it appears that knives were used.  Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now it seems to me, Mr Nkabinde that these were acts of pure criminality and they were nothing to do with your alleged operations as an APLA cadre?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: These were political matters not criminal matters.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So I think it's a matter for argument, Mr Nkabinde.  I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions on this aspect?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination on this aspect?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions on this latest aspect?

ADV BOSMAN: None thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

ADV MOTATA: I've got none.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Nkabinde, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

CHAIRPERSON: Before we adjourn then, I would like to just thank everybody who made the hearings here possible this week.  I'd like to thank the translators for the wonderful job that they've done, it was very arduous translating simultaneously.  I would like to thank the sound technician, the television man, I would also like to thank Mrs Hendricks the caterer and those who assisted her, who spoilt us, fed us very well this week and I'd also like to thank Mr Jaftha who set this whole thing up, was involved in the logistics and the security provided here, I'd like to thank those people and I also, last but not least like to thank Mr Mpshe the evidence leader and Mr Mbandazayo who has appeared before us every day this week in various matters and I'd like to thank them for the professional manner in which they handled the matters.  Thank you very much indeed, we'll then now adjourn and as I say a decision in this matter will be handed down in the near future.
	Sorry Mr Mpshe, could you please give us a list of the victims?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I was attempting to elicit this from my learned friend, he does not have the full particulars but he promised that he will write them down for me and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg would you please because we have to in terms of the Act when we make a decision, we've got to state that in our opinion the following persons are victims and we've got to stipulate them and if possible give an address, any address where they can be contactable and then we refer those names to the Reparations Committee for consideration in terms of Section 26.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, we'll now adjourn.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

CHAIRPERSON: To Mr Mbandazayo, to Mr Prior, we would like to extend our gratitude for the assistance you've rendered to the Committee as it considers Mr Maseko's application.  We will reserve our judgement in this matter and we'll announce it in due course.  Thank you very much.
	Mr Prior, I am made to understand that the second applicant, our next application has arrived.  Are we in a position to start or should we break for lunch.

ADV PRIOR: Madam Chair, it may be wise to allow Mr Mbandazayo some time with his client.  What is the time precisely now?

CHAIRPERSON: Half past one.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I think it will be wise to break now for the luncheon adjournment and resume after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, how much time do you think you'll need to enable you to properly consult with your client?  We are aware that you have not had an opportunity to do so and would like to afford you that opportunity.  Can you give an indication of when you would like us to start your application?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee.  As the Committee indicates that it's one case, unlike Maseko, I was just given when I was coming ...[indistinct], it would be the first time to meet the applicant, I don't even have the affidavit.  But I can give the Committee that at least at half past two I will be able to start.

CHAIRPERSON: You will be able to read it and prepare for your next matter within an hour?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee, I have read the document itself, it's just that I have to consult with the applicant and confer what - so I think I'll be able to start within the hour.

CHAIRPERSON: However, if you do encounter any difficulties will you please just convey them to Mr Prior and we will try and accommodate you?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I'll do that Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until half past two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

MS PATEL: Mr Thulo, on page 69 you have stated that you would also like to apply for general amnesty for things that you may not recall, is that still your request?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) relevant Ms Patel, whether it's still his request, he can't get it.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: My legal representative explained to me that the way the TRC Act operates does not allow a person to apply for amnesty for the things he does not know.  That is why apply for amnesty for things I know.

MS PATEL: Just finally though, were you involved in so many incidents that you can't recall what you were involved in?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: When I tried to explain about things which I do not remember, I was thinking of those issues, that the cameras which were used by the police during the attack, if we would go to help the community in a different manner, maybe I appear in their videos.  That is why I say those are the things which I cannot recollect.

MS PATEL: Sorry, if you would bear with me just one moment.
	You've mentioned in your application, under whose approval you acted, you say:
"Commander Chris Mdago."
Is this the same as Chris Motokwe?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is Chris Motokwe, that is my commander.

MS PATEL: Who is Chris Mdago, or is it the same person?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: It is a slip of my hand because I don't know the correct spelling but I know that he's Chris Motokwe, but the way it's written here does not correspond with the real name.

MS PATEL: Alright.  Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

ADV DE JAGER: Ms Patel, do you know whether the deceased had any relations or where he stayed, any notice given perhaps in newspapers in recent days or so?

MS PATEL: If I may place on record, Honourable Chairperson, that ads were placed both in newspapers and on the radio some time back, for victims to come forward.  The response was very poor.
	I might add also that another ad was placed last week, to which we have had no response.  And in terms of the report from our Investigative Unit, they haven't had any luck in terms of this.

ADV DE JAGER: So as far as the Amnesty Committee or its staff could possibly have done, they've tried to get hold or give notices to everyone involved and the victims involved?

MS PATEL: That is correct, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR SAMUELS: No re-examination.  That is the evidence for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, the next applicant we call is Embrose May, application number 7208/97.

ADV DE JAGER: Is there no other applications connected with this?

MR MAKANJEE: As far as I am aware, there is no other application connected to this incident.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR MAKANJEE: Volume three, page 157.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr May, what language would you prefer to use?

MR MAY: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: What number of the machine would that be?

INTERPRETER: Unfortunately we don't have a Xhosa interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we able to get one tomorrow?

MS PATEL: I'll make the necessary arrangements, Honourable Chairperson.

MR MAKANJEE: We don't have any other applicants ready today.  These were the five applicants who were in fact ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: From tomorrow onwards all the applicants will have to be here.

MR MAKANJEE: As discussed earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
HEARING OF EMBROSE MAY POSTPONED TILL 1ST DECEMBER 1998
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nemaorani, have you heard what your attorney has said about your position?

MR NEMAORANI: Yes I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree therewith?

MR NEMAORANI: Yes I do agree with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Mabote, have you heard what your attorney has said?

MR MABOTE: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with him?

MR MABOTE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mabote, are you withdrawing your whole application or are you continuing with part of it?

MR MABOTE: I withdraw the case about murder, what I apply for is the possession of illegal firearms and ammunition.

ADV DE JAGER: Now could you tell us please why didn't you mention in your application when you were ask for particulars about the acts you are asking for, why didn't you mention the illegal firearms, the possession of the illegal firearms?

MR MABOTE: They appear in my application.  They appear because I was in possession of them, it is clear in my application that I left them, they were with me then I handed them over.  There were three things which appeared in my application.  Firstly it's murder which perhaps I thought I am involved because when I made this application it was at the time when I was confused and I did not have help and I didn't know as to whether
should I apply because even when you look at the date you'd see it was the last date of the submission of the applications therefore I was obliged because I did not know, I was obliged therefore to make an application.  After I met my legal representative it was clear that in the true sense I was not involved about the two incidents except the possession of illegal firearms.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you hand in a firearm when they requested you to do so after the election?

MR MABOTE: As appears in my application, during the elections of 1994 I was outside the country.  In 1992 I went outside the country because my life was in danger then I was advised to go out.

CHAIRPERSON: What has happened to that firearm and ammunition?

MR MABOTE: According to my knowledge they were handed over to the general Amnesty Committee after the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do with it, that firearm and ammunition?

MR MABOTE: I made it clear in my application that I left them in the township, I left them with Comrade Sam and Comrade Lucky.  Thereafter they took them to the stadium where all members of self defence unit handed over all their firearms.  I was present at the stadium when they were handed over, then I was satisfied that they handed over the firearms and as a leader of the ANC we were - that was when people turned over their firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, the applications would therefore be referred for chamber attention.  They are all excused.

MR SHEIN: Thank you.  Are we being excused in the meantime?  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, might I at this stage point out to the Committee and place on record that since I appeared here yesterday I also received instructions to act on behalf of Mrs Doris Sambo who is named as a victim in the application of Mogoera Modikoa, number 7212/97 and place myself on record in that regard as well before we proceed with the applications.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that an application that we've dealt with already?

MR SWANEPOEL: No Mr Chairperson, it's one to be dealt with.
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

ADV DE JAGER: In your application you say that "my chief commander's name was Bonga Nkosi" and you state it under the particulars of whether the deed was approved by anybody.  What was your chief commander's attitude about this offence you've committed?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: My chief commander got a report and I was not expected to get permission from him to do what I did because he was far away and the situation at that time made me to do what I did.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether he afterwards approved of what you did?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: If you say after this I've approved, it has already happened.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I just wish to clarify three little points?
	Mr May, the Mozambican gentleman, did he see with the gun when he started threatening you or was it before he had seen the gun that he started threatening you?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: He didn't see me with the weapon at the time he was saying this.  He spoke about this because he knew about me and he was investigating before this date and he knew what I was doing.  He then saw the weapon at the time that I was showing it to him.

MR SAMUELS: Mr May, this weapon, where did you keep this AK47 that he didn't see it when he had started to threaten you?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Because it was cold I had a jacket on and I also had this jacket on so that I can hide this weapon and my weapon didn't have an arm butt, I took it off.

MR SAMUELS: Are you saying your weapon didn't have an arm butt so it became shorter, is that my understanding of what you're saying?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: So it would have been easier to conceal under your coat, is that correct?

EMBROSE NZIMKULU MAY: Yes that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY SAMUELS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Samuels, you'll have to address us on the question whether this application would cover this - the offences.

MR SAMUELSS: Yes, I will - up to all the hearings I heard, present formal argument on about three or four issues that have been raised.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) any murder, any attempted murder, any possession of firearms in this application at all?

MR SAMUELSS: Yes quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just add that after all the evidence is led I will expect argument immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR SAMUELSS: No I close my case for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-02

MS PATEL: Well Mr Samuels will have to answer for that.  They take the instructions from ...(intervention)

MR SAMUELS: Sorry, I didn't hear the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Mr Kopedi?

MR SAMUELS: I have no idea.

ADV DE JAGER: If a person is out on parole, the officials must have his address because a person on parole should report frequently.  So they must be able to trace them unless they've broken their parole rules and then they could even be rearrested.   That may be the case, but it wouldn't solve our immediate problem.

CHAIRPERSON: You see this apparent disrespect for this process has gone beyond just an irritation.  In their favour I must say, one doesn't know whether they did in fact receive notice but at the same time I don't want to over-extend this hearing, it's not really our fault.  Mr Kopedi is the address chosen and by agreement he is supposed to do what is necessary.  How long do want to find out where they are?

MR SAMUELS: If we have today, and by 9 o'clock - without any witnesses, I will be here to give an answer to a convened Court or hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Why can't a couple of phone calls sort this out?

MR SAMUELS: Oh, we can try right now, yes, we will.  I will keep you updated at 11 o'clock and at 1 o'clock and equally when we close this afternoon ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I said, just hold your horses.

ADV DE JAGER: We had a contact number at Correctional Services, the TRC.  I don't what's his name, is he still operating and could he assist us perhaps?

MS PATEL: I will endeavour to get hold of our Investigative Unit who will make the necessary arrangements if possible.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)  It's going to help me make a decision also.  Of these three people, are there any one or more of them that have been mentioned during evidence that has gone by?

MR SAMUELS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So if they are involved in hearable matters, it will be on their instructions only, not because other people had mentioned them?

MR SAMUELS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I certainly hope Mr Kopedi is not going to charge for the days of this hearing because he's put in no work.  Ja, I hope that is conveyed to him, Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: I'll ensure that it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuels, ...(inaudible)

MR SAMUELS: As the Court pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: Yes, Mr Shein is ready to proceed with his clients.
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

THABATHA NGOZO: With regards to the stolen car I did make mention of the fact that Beki was convicted.  Mulefe knows everything. These ones only took part in his killing.  The only question I have for them is that why did they kill him, because he never fought with them and there was no fight or battle between them.  Why would they want to kill him, or why did they ever kill him?

MR SHANE: He did already answer you that he believed your brother was an informer of the SADISU.  That's the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane have you got any more questions?  I'm asking you, not your client.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I was just confirming with him whether he has, and he has nothing further.  There's nothing further for the witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

ADV GCABASHE: Did I understand you to say that this applicant was at the criminal trial?  He attended the criminal trial concerning the theft of the motor vehicle?

THABATHA NGOZO: He was not there.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: May the witness be excused Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV STEENKAMP: I'll call no further witnesses, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Your client is excused Mr Shane.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I can inform ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your lot for today?

MR SHANE: That's all I have today.  I have no more applicants that I can bring before you today.  I hope to see what logistics are, but tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: How many tomorrow?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I have to see who's going to come.  Who's going to get transport.  I do have an applicant who is serving a sentence.  I understand he's only going to be brought on Monday.  I have to try and obtain his papers, because he's serving a sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: I trust that you will have consulted with him before Monday.

MR SHANE: I will be consulting with him at the prison, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman unfortunately my learned colleagues informed my other learned colleagues who are present here that they will also only be able to proceed tomorrow, so for today I would adjourn.  It's in your hands.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-04

CHAIRPERSON: You have heard that the victim has had a change of heart and I would request your Attorney and the Evidence Leader to facilitate that meeting, possibly in private, I am not too sure what is required.
	I just want to say to the victim that I am pleased that he is able to see his way clear to do so because the time has come for us to live together as we should have been doing over the last 300 years.
	We all should consciously avoid a repetition of what occurred in recent times in our country.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, the owner of that house was at that stage Mrs Lena Soko, Lena Soko, that was the actual, physical owner of the house.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-04

CHAIRPERSON: You had no right to do so, no legal right?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: What right?

CHAIRPERSON: To distribute firearms?  I am talking about legal right?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: Yes, I did not have that right.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation in Tokoza today?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: The situation is back to normal today.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you feel about that fact?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: I am free.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think of institutions like police stations today?  Are they necessary in our society?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: Yes, they are important for now.

CHAIRPERSON: Should they be respected?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: Yes, they should be respected.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree that in the violence that occurred during that time, and in particular I am talking about the Tokoza area, many people died?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: Yes, many people died.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree we should avoid a repetition of that in future?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And that our people irrespective of their political affiliations, should live in peace together?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have there been lessons to be learnt from the previous experience do you think?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: Yes, so many lessons.

CHAIRPERSON: And have we learnt from them?

SOLOMON DLAMINI: Yes, we have learnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

CHAIRPERSON: When you assaulted him like that, did you intend to injure him badly?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: My intention was, I wanted him to be injured or die if possible, because that was the decision and the procedure of the SDU's that if they come across an enemy, that person should be hit until he dies.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you think he could die by being hit on the head with a stick and kicked in the ribs?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I did not think of anything.  The only thing that came to my mind was to hit him, because I only had a stick.  I thought that by me hitting him, that would contribute to his death.

CHAIRPERSON: How?  How would that contribute to his death?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: If I continued kicking his ribs, maybe he would, his ribs would break and damage the heart and by hitting him on his head, maybe the stick would cause his internal bleeding and the brain would be effected.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times did you hit him?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I cannot remember whether I hit him once or twice, but I did not hit him more than twice.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times did you kick him?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I cannot remember, but I think it was not more than five times.  I cannot remember how many times did I kick him.

CHAIRPERSON: If you wanted to kill him, why didn't you borrow a gun and shoot him?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I did not borrow a firearm to shoot him, because I was not brave enough, though I was angry, but I was not brave enough to get a firearm and kill him.  I think I was a bit scared to kill him.
	Though I was an SDU member, I was not brave enough to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did not intend to really kill him, but really to injure him only, not so?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I wanted to injure him if possible, if he would die in the process, because I was also angry like the others, and I could feel that we were in danger.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly then that you intended to kill him, and if he died as a result, it was well and good although you didn't, you knew you didn't do enough to actually ensure that he died?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I wouldn't be surprised if he died out of that, because that was our intention and my intention as a member of the SDU as we were assaulting him.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you leave before he was actually killed, if you wanted to kill him?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I was afraid, I was scared to kill and a few days before his capture, Sicelo indicated to me as I was still a student at the University of Transkei, it was during the holidays, Sicelo told me that if someone is captured, I have to get an AK and kill that person.
	I thought that that was time for me to take off a person, so that is why I decided to go home before that person was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

CHAIRPERSON: One last question, when you said that due to the situation of the violence, I was protecting myself and everybody has a right to life, so as an individual, I was protecting that right, what type of question did you think you were answering?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Those two answers that you gave on page 276, question 10(a) and (b), the answers you said you did not wish to amend, you now suggest today that you may not have understood the questions properly, I am just asking you, how did you then understand the questions in order to give those kind of answers?  What did you think you were answering?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: It will be extremely difficult for me to respond to that, because I am confused now.  I don't know what is happening.
	The way I explained this to you, I thought you were going to understand more about my intention and why I applied for amnesty.  Now if you are referring me to the papers, something when I wrote when I was still in jail, that places me in a difficult situation because I've got to think properly, because I wrote this thing while I was in jail.
	You know when you are in prison, you just fill in the gaps so that your application be accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer to my question?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairman, there is one aspect that I need to correct on the applicant's application form, regarding his surname.  It is spelt differently as in his identity document.  The ID document it is spelt Motshwene.  Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: We will refer to him as Joseph Bongi Nkosi Motshwene.

MRS NHLAYISI: It is pronounced the same, it is just that the other one is written in Ndebele, the other one is written in Sotho.  It is Motshwene.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is the Sotho spelling?

MRS NHLAYISI: The one that I have just given to you.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say the other one?

MRS NHLAYISI: Ndebele.

CHAIRPERSON: And you would prefer us to use the one as contained in the ...

MRS NHLAYISI: In the ID document.

CHAIRPERSON: We will refer to him on that basis and also indicate he is also known by the other spelling.

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  He is excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED