Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ek het...[intervention]

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: You will have to take the mic with you because we have to get it into the record.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Sekerlik mnr die Voorsitter.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you.

MNR LIEBENBERG: As ek net kan wys hier -  dit is die brug - hierdie kant op loop NY111 ek was ongeveer 'n kilometer op in hierdie rigting het ek gestaan met die fotograaf in my voertuig en nog 'n lid of twee.
 Voordat ek hier gaan stelling inneem het, het ek op die Nasionale Pad, Majoor Odendal en lede hier in die bosse afgelaai wat begin deurstap het.  Dit was ons mense wat te voet was.  As ek kan reg onthou was hier oor die brug by die winkelsentrum was daar 'n voertuig geplaas om daardie ingang dop te hou.  Ek was op hierdie ene, ek  dink hierdie  was 'n doodloopstraat - maar net om die draai links of regs of beide was daar ook twee voertuie en verder terug na die polisiestasie toe omdat NY1 die roete sou wees van die polisiebussie was daar taamlik mense op hom geplaas.
 Die meeste mense te voet weet ek was hierdie kant - ek kan nie onthou of  daar nog mense te voet aan hierdie  kant ook was nie.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you - can you describe to me what a kripto berig is.  Wat is 'n kripto berig?

MNR LIEBENBERG: 'n Kripto berig was in die ou dae 'n geheime berig, dit is 'n berig wat wanneer hy deur die masjien gestuur word vanaf Pretoria na Kaapstad sal ek die Engelse naam gebruik ge-scramble word langs die pad en dan weer anderkant met die nodig kennis  weer ontsyfer kan word.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: So it's a message that is sent from one person to another or  from one office to another - en route it gets scrambled up and then somebody has to decode it on the other end.

MNR LIEBENBERG: That is correct.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Is that how I understand it.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Dit is korrek.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay - why would it be necessary to send a kripto berig to somebody about some  really young terrorist running  around in Guguletu.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ek sal nie daaroor kan getuig nie - dit is opdrag gewees by Veiligheidstak dat omtrent in die meerderheid gevalle alles in kripto berig was.  Ek het dit maar so kom  kry hier.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: It's a very highly secret message that get sent isn't it - Uiters Geheim.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ek sou so se ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: And that's the message you  used and communicated with Hoofkantoor about this particular incident?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ja dit was nie altyd vir myself om te besluit nie - ek was op daardie stadium 'n luitenant en my bevelvoerders wat die magtiging gegee het vir 'n berig om te gaan het hom gewoonlik geklassifiseer en gestuur.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: However, that is the method you used.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Dit is korrek.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Dankie.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Superintendent I just want to find out do you know if Bellingham and/or Mbelo had ever severed in Koevoet before they came to Vlakplaas?

MNR LIEBENBERG: I don't think Mbelo could have  Mr Chairman but put it this way  - ek kan nie se of een van hulle twee by Koevoet was al dan nie.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And do you know  a person called Griebenouw - I don't know whether he is a general now?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Dit is korrek mnr die Voorsitter.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Is he still in the force?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Nee hy is nie - hy is 'n afgetrede generaal.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And was he ever in Cape Town?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Hy was in Kaapstad gewees in 1983/84 en in '85 was hy ook nog hier, maar op een of ander stadium het hy in 1985 was hy verplaas na Oos-London toe dink ek.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Did he come back from East London at any other  stage?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Hy het weer daarna teruggekom Kaap toe dit is  korrek.

ADV NTSEBEZA: When did he come back from East London to Cape Town?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ek kan nie met sekerheid se nie mnr die Voorsitter.

ADV NTSEBEZA: When these events happened here in 1986, was he in East London?

MNR LIEBENBERG: Dit is korrek mnr die  Voorsitter  - as ek kan reg onthou ek praat onder korreksie, maar dit is so ver ek kan onthou is hy in laat '85 reeds Oos London toe.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Do you know if he was ever in charge of the  same sort of operations as you  seemed to have been in charged at one stage -  [indistinct] namely tracking of terrorist as you called them at those stage.

MNR LIEBENBERG: Ek sal nie kan se nie mnr die Voorsitter hy was my direkte bevelvoerder.  En ek is by 'n posisie geplaas wat ek dan direk met terroriste gewerk het van begin af en so was hy, so hy het taamlik kennis daarvan gehad, dit is al wat ek sal kan se.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you.  Well that's as far as we can take you Superintendent I must indicate that unless there is something that crops up you are - you are -  did you know there is another question I want to ask.
 Did you know Brigadier Viktor?

MR LIEBENBERG: I have heard the name Mr Chairman but...[intervention]

ADV NTSEBEZA: He was never in Cape Town during your time?

MR LIEBENBERG: Not that I know of - well I never met him face to face no.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I see, but do ou also -  do you know if he was connected with Vlakplaas?  Or what you know in connection thereof - there with is what you have read in the papers.

MR LIEBENBERG: Only what I read in the papers Mr Chairman.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I see - well you are excused.

MR LIEBENBERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.