Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I did not mention Pretoria, because I was asked about the incident at Devon.  I did not regard Pretoria as part of that incident.

MR COETZEE: Mr Van Zyl, how do you feel today regarding these events?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I am deeply remorseful about what happened to Mr Terreblanche.  I ask for forgiveness from his parents and his next of kin.

MR COETZEE: The question arises why you have not indicated this remorse to his family and friends?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: During the criminal trial one of the conditions was that I should not contact the family of the victim.

MR COETZEE: And after your conviction, did you have any opportunity to make contact with them?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR COETZEE: Mr Van Zyl, with regards to your future plans, should you be granted amnesty, what would you be planning to do with your life ahead?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Never again to become involved with any political activities or political parties.

MR COETZEE: Were any indications given to you that work would be available to you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR COETZEE: And regarding your wife and children, do they support you up until this very day?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: Do you or did you draw any personal advantage through this action?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR COETZEE: And if it was said to you that the ultimate result of your action would be that one pistol would be stolen from a white policeman and that he would have to pay with his life for that, what would you have done then?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I wouldn't have done it.

MR COETZEE: At the stage when Mr Holder and De Meillon left for the base with their firearms, did you envisage the possibility of somebody being shot?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR COETZEE: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you left for Pretoria approximately four o'clock that afternoon.  What time did you arrive there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Approximately half past six.

CHAIRPERSON: Half past six, and you spent approximately half an hour there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would estimate that you left there at approximately seven o'clock then?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thus it took approximately two hours, a little over two hours, to travel from Secunda to Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Approximately that long, yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did the incident at Devon take place?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Between 11 o'clock and half past eleven that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you spend the time before you arrived at Devon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: We stopped along the way, just on the other side of  Delmas.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: We chatted.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only place that you stopped at?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How long would you say you spent there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Approximately 45 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you plan anything there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.  We were just told that we were to go around, via Devon and see what was happening there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did De Meillon say that he was going to have a look at what was going on there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, him and Mr Holder.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wasn't sure about what was going on there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that he hadn't been there for some time?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: The last time he had been there, was when he was doing an Air Force camp, I don't know how long ago that had been.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say about what he wanted to go and see there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: He wanted to go and look at the arsenal of weapons and reconnoitre the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Reconnoitre the area and see if there were weapons?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any idea that an attempt would be made to take weapons at Devon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: If they had found the weapons, I believe they would have taken them.

CHAIRPERSON: But was that ever discussed?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Meillon was only going to have a look at what was going on there and to see whether or not there were weapons?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you said that you believed that if they had found weapons, they would have taken them?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't think that they were going to shoot people dead there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: If De Meillon had said to you look here, I am taking weapons there, and if I find anybody, I am going to shoot them dead?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I wouldn't have dropped him off.

CHAIRPERSON: You would have thought that that was a stupid plan?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Van Zyl, in your evidence you said that Mr De Meillon created a certain impression with you in Secunda, what was that impression?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: He told us that we were to go to Pretoria because there was an arsenal where we would be able to obtain weapons.

MR PRINSLOO: That you would be able to obtain these weapons from guards?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No, he said that there was an arsenal which they had already observed.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it clear to you that these weapons would be taken from guards?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR PRINSLOO: According to your evidence, Mr De Meillon said that weapons would be taken from guards who were standing duty at that arsenal?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And did they have automatic weapons?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: So it wasn't a question of first killing them and then taking their weapons, there would be the attempt to take their weapons first?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you identified yourself with that, that the plan did not realise?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR PRINSLOO: And the fact that you went to Pretoria for that purpose, was informed to the police during the investigation.  Did they know about it or not?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Could you repeat that please?

MR PRINSLOO: Did the police know that you had gone to Pretoria before you went to Devon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chair.

MR PRINSLOO: According to Mr De Meillon's evidence and statement, the police already knew and that aspect had been investigated by them.  Do you know about that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR PRINSLOO: You took a shotgun with you, is that correct?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: The AWB's policy was that wherever we went, we would take our weapons with us.

MR PRINSLOO: Should it be necessary, you would have used that shotgun?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you also knew that you would be obtaining guns unlawfully and that that weapon may be used at some point, because of the circumstances?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And you also knew that your two co-applicants were armed and you foresaw the possibility that they could use these weapons if necessary?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: So you identified yourself with the idea that a robbery would take place and possibly a murder or a serious injury of this nature, did you foresee that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Prinsloo, and you yourself, under what circumstances would you make use of the shotgun?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: If my life had been in danger, if I had been threatened.

CHAIRPERSON: In order to defend yourself?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have attacked anybody with that gun?