Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

MR ZILWA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will be calling the first applicant Pumelele Civilian Hermans.  Would he be sworn in please?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hermans, what language would you prefer to use?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Xhosa.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: (sworn states)

MR ZILWA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Hermans, you are a member of the ANC?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: How long have you been a member of the ANC?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Since 1990.

MR ZILWA: That was at the time that the ANC was still banned, isn't that so?  In 1990, that was at a time when the ANC was still banned, in other words you started with your membership of the ANC at a time it was still banned, would that be correct?  I could be wrong, had it been unbanned?

ADV DE JAGER: It was unbanned on the 2nd of February 1990.

MR ZILWA: Yes, let's get it from you.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, when I first became a member of a political organisation, I joined UDF in 1984.  Then in 1990, when the ANC was unbanned, I was then a member of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you stay?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Port St Johns.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1993, April, were you a resident of Port St Johns?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the African National Congress?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever a member of the South African Communist Party?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I am a member.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you during April 1993 a member of the South African Communist Party?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware of the, were you aware of the existence of what is known to be Self Defence Units, at that time?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: It was in 1992 when I started getting involved in the Self Defence Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you still involved in the Self Defence Unit during April 1993?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: In Port St Johns.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you aware why you have come to this hearing?  I didn't get the answer?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us how you got involved in that incident?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I would like to start about the death of Chris Hani.  What happened is on the 10th of April 1993, Chris Hani was shot by white people.  We heard that together with my colleague Guleni, we heard from people in town during the day when Chris Hani died.  We didn't believe that when we heard it.
	On that same day, we were listening to the seven o'clock news on the television, I was then sure that it is indeed true, Chris Hani is dead.

MR ZILWA: Mr Hermans, to put your actions in context, maybe you should first establish, you have already told this Committee that you are a member of the ANC and a member of the SACP and a member of the Self Defence Unit in Port St Johns.
	Were you holding any particular position of leadership in any of those organisations in Port St Johns?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: In the ANC Youth League, I was the Publicity Secretary of the Branch.  In the ANC I was just an ordinary member.  The Communist Party, I was a Treasurer of the Branch.  Again, in the ANC Youth League in the sub-regional level, I was a Treasurer.

MR ZILWA: Right, in the Self Defence Unit itself, were you holding a position of power of authority?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: In the Self Defence Unit, I was in the sub-region of the Self Defence Unit together with my colleague, Guleni.

MR ZILWA: Right, now with that background in mind.  I stopped you at a time when you were telling us that you watched the TV news and you heard about the death of Chris Hani.  Please take it from there and proceed.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: When we heard that Chris Hani died, on the following day, on Sunday, Guleni and myself went to the ANC offices.  It was not a normal thing for these offices to be opened on Sunday, but we had to go and work and do whatever we can do at the office about the death of Chris Hani.
	We decided to write letters to all the Branches of Port St Johns.  The aim was for us to tell them that they should be ready, maybe they would be needed to go and attend a memorial service or a funeral.  We wanted them to tell everybody about what happened.  People who did not have radio's and televisions.
	We worked on that Sunday  and on the Monday.  In the afternoon on Monday, the comrades from Flagstaff came, Maxhayi, Nyalukana and Mazwi.

MR ZILWA: Yes.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: They came with a view that we should retaliate because of the death of Chris Hani.  We also had similar views when they came to us.

MR ZILWA: When you say we, who are you talking about?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I am referring to myself and Fundisile Guleni.

MR ZILWA: Carry on.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I want to explain why they came to Port St Johns, the comrades from Flagstaff.  What happened is in 1992, towards ...

MR ZILWA: Mr Hermans, the electricity left us when you were just starting narrating the events surrounding the death of Chris Hani.  You were saying on the, after you had learned about the death, you wrote letters and right there, just continue from where you left off.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: What I was trying to say was that the reason why the people from Flagstaff went to Port St Johns, there was a report in 1992 which we gave to the sub-region about the conditions, the bad conditions that we were working under at Port St Johns.
	We were working under threats.

MR ZILWA: Yes?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: As we were people who were always in the office, we were working in the office, but we would go out to different Branches.  When we came back at other times, we would find from the Administrator that there were people from a certain Branch who came and gave a report about their fears in their areas, for example in Gomolo.
	People were scared of whites that they didn't trust.  Port St Johns, in town, there were times when the workers were experiencing problems.  They then came to our offices and reported, and gave us a report about the matter and there was a white man who was a businessman by the name of John Costello.  His workers had a problem concerning him.
	They then came to the ANC offices asking for help.  They were having problems about their salaries or wages, and the conditions of employment.  They had doubts about certain things, they had doubts about the way he was speaking to them.

MR ZILWA: Let's be more specific and let's try to go straight to the point.  What were their suspicions about him?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: The suspicions that the workers heard were that the weapons, they suspected that there were weapons which were there because we got a report that there were whites who used to go there at night, they were using cars, sometimes they would come from the river, they were using boats.  There was a river Umzimvubu and they were using boats in that river.
	Some of the things that they thought that they were weapons, because they were in boxes, they were coming from the direction of the river.

MR ZILWA: ... by the ANC office from the workers of Costello, that Costello's house was being used by some other whites to smuggle weapons in Port St Johns, is that what you are saying?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Was that his evidence, I thought he said there were things that were in boxes and they were having, that in fact these may have been arms, weapons, they did not actually see them?

MR ZILWA: Maybe let's establish that from the witness himself.  Could you please repeat this thing about the weapons there, were these weapons seen or was it a suspicion that there were weapons? Could you please come again and tell us about that?