Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

MS NGQULUNGA: We went back, was taken back to the mortuary Saturday afternoon. 
	On Monday Captain Van Dyk came and said Eugene de Kock had said there is a conducive place 
in Vlakplaas where Brian could be buried, so he might as well be taken there. Although we did not even 
know the causes of his killing, but we agreed to the fact that he should be buried in Vlakplaas.
	And on Wednesday we were four of us headed to Vlakplaas and some others from Vlakplaas 
were present.  We buried him on Wednesday.  When we got there, I found that there was no conducive 
place whatsoever, it was just a forest where we were going to bury him.	I did not even have an 
opportunity to ask him where is the conducive place that you were 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 134

T C NGQULUNGA: talking about because what I am seeing here is a hill and it is just a forest.
	And we finished the whole service and we went back home, though we did not know who the 
perpetrators were.  I was just told that he was killed by ANC when I tried to enquire next to Brits.
	The second thing I think when they killed Brian, he was naked, they had taken off his clothes, the 
way he was brutally injured, because the clothes he had on, he had a suit, a black suit on.  Brian's body was 
brutally injured and his clothes were just intact, they were in perfect condition.  The shirt and the suit were 
clean as ever, no blood whatsoever.  I think they had taken off his clothes and they put the clothes back 
after they had injured him.

UNKNOWN: You did hear the evidence that he was buried, or he had to be buried at Vlakplaas 
because there was rioting going on in the Soshanguve township, did you hear that?

MS NGQULUNGA: Yes, we had heard that.

UNKNOWN: Was there any violence going on at the time?

MS NGQULUNGA: There was no riot.

UNKNOWN: Were you ever informed about the tombstone that was laid on his grave?

MS NGQULUNGA: I was not informed, I was just told that they had already erected a tombstone 
and I was taken to see it.

UNKNOWN: Were you given any information as to who laid the tombstone?

MS NGQULUNGA: No one gave me any information regarding this, I was just fetched to Brian's 
grave to see the tombstone.

UNKNOWN: If you do have knowledge was Brian involved 
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UNKNOWN: 134

T C NGQULUNGA: with the ANC Party?

MS NGQULUNGA: No, I don't have any knowledge in that regard.  He never made mention of that.  
All I knew is that he was a police, working with the police.  The only thing he said to me was that he was 
no longer happy at work, because he had received threatening calls, that he should tell his White employers 
to put everything in place, his records so
that when he dies, the families were taken care of.  And when he had tried to ask who are you talking to me 
in this fashion, they refused to tell him the names.  The following day he moved from one office to another 
and the same phone rang and he was told that - the same message that, tell your employers to give you all 
your monies because you will die very soon and you will see us soon to kill you.  That means he saw them, 
he met the people on Friday when he was killed, the very people that threatened him.

UNKNOWN: Did he perhaps tell you why there were these death threats?

MS NGQULUNGA: He did not tell me anything, he only told me that he was no longer happy at his 
workplace.

UNKNOWN: Evidence was led, sorry Mr Chairman, I withdraw that, no evidence was led to it in fact, 
but it was shown on the TV today which video you saw, that Mamasela stated that your husband was 
drinking a lot, that he was broken down and at one stage he even shot at you, do you remember hearing 
that?

MS NGQULUNGA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you know as to why he had to shoot you?

MS NGQULUNGA: That is a family matter, all that I know is that because Joe Mamasela had said 
he drank very heavily, I repudiate that, he will only drink Saturdays and Sundays and PRETORIA 
HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 135

T C NGQULUNGA: still he was not a heavy drinker and he was also registered with Unisa, he had no time to drink as Joe 
Mamasela alleged
What he did to me was just a mistake and it has nothing to do with this, it is all a family matter.

UNKNOWN: What was he studying with Unisa?

MS NGQULUNGA: He was studying law with Unisa.

UNKNOWN: Studying towards a law degree?

MS NGQULUNGA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now the applicant is before this Committee, seeking amnesty, what is your response to 
that?

MS NGQULUNGA: It is hard, it is difficult.

UNKNOWN: He is basically, amongst others, asking for forgiveness, how do you react to that?

MS NGQULUNGA: (No audible reply)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe if she doesn't want to answer that it....

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all the evidence.

HASSAN MALL: Has it been explained to her Mr Mpshe, as to what is meant by amnesty and so on?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, that has been done, yes.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.  Is the position that she hasn't answered what her attitude is towards the granting of 
amnesty.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman this has been explained, but perhaps I am not speaking for her Mr 
Chairman, as I look at her she is becoming emotional, perhaps it is because of that that she cannot say how 
she feels about it Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Let her calm down and afford her an opportunity.

UNKNOWN: Are you ready to come and comment on the 
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UNKNOWN: 136

T C NGQULUNGA: forgiveness being asked?

MS NGQULUNGA: I don't have any forgiveness, I have no forgiveness for him.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman that will be all.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe has it been explained to her that if she is in need of assistance which might 
become available through the Reparation and Rehabilitation Commission, that she should approach them?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, that was done to her and her two sisters by myself, yesterday and 
which discussion went down to the question of exhuming the body and burying him where they want to 
bury him and I referred - connected her with the gentlemen next to him who is from the R&R Committee, 
that has been taken care of by him, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  Are there any questions to be asked under cross-examination?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Can you indicate to us 
when you saw the clothes of your husband was that just before the burial?

MS NGQULUNGA: We saw the clothes after the funeral, the clothes were sent to us on Monday.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Was it the clothes that he had on for the burial or ...?

MS NGQULUNGA: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: So ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr du Plessis, I am sure you don't intend asking that question.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I am just trying to determine whether the clothing was the clothing he was 
wearing.

ADV DE JAGER: So you are asking the question whether he had PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 137

T C NGQULUNGA: dressed for his burial?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, what I mean is had he dressed for the burial in different clothes than those 
which he had been wearing?  Okay, let me rephrase the question. 
	The clothing which you are testifying about, was that the clothing he was dressed in for the burial 
or was it clothing that was sent to you in a different manner, which clothes are you talking about?

MS NGQULUNGA: I am talking about the suit that he had on on Friday when he was going to 
work.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Was he dressed in that particular suit of clothes when he was buried?

MS NGQULUNGA: We burnt the other suit and we put on a different suit altogether.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The suit which you burnt, were these the clothes which he had on when he was 
shot?

MS NGQULUNGA: That was the suit that he had on when he was shot.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you very much.  I have one more question.  Do you know who made the 
threatening calls to him?

MS NGQULUNGA: I don't know, because he also did not know, he also wanted to know.