Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: English is my third language, Mr Chairman, so if I do fall back into Afrikaans, then, that's my second language, it might just be, if one wants to put a specific thought across, or fact across, one has to be sure that one does it in the right way.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You can use Xhosa as well.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Unfortunately, I'm not capable of speaking that.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Terreblanche?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Mr Van der Veer, welcome again.   We have sent a number of questions to you, I will read it into the record.   We've required your presence here today to answer questions and give evidence on your - relevant to your role in SAA during the 1980's, with particular reference to the time of the Helderberg disaster in 1987, to clarify to the TRC the relationship between Armscor and SAA in the late 1980's, including the relationship between SAA and subsidiaries of Armscor, to answer questions relevant to SAA's policy on cargo, to explain your role in the investigation into the crash, particularly immediate steps taken to secure all the records relevant to an inquiry into an air disaster, and to answer questions pertaining to the whereabouts of the ZUR tapes of all communications between the Helderberg and the Springbok Radio station on the night of the crash.
 I don't know if you have prepared something on that line and whether you would prefer for us to just ask you questions?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I have not prepared anything at all, I think you should ask the questions, but you are referring, in the Afrikaans note that you sent me, Mr Chairman, that you have certain evidence, and that you would like to query me, whatever it is, on that evidence.   If there is such evidence, I would very much like to be brought up to date as to what that evidence is, and whether this is in fact evidence or whether it's hearsay or rumours, because the last thing, Mr Chairman, and this is what I'm worried about, about this whole hearing, is that one starts rumours.   Having lost 159 passengers' lives, with the relatives, one doesn't just treat this for the, you know, for the enter-tainment of others.   This is an extremely serious matter.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Terreblanche?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Our evidence is mainly in the form of statements made to us by former and current personnel of SAA, many of them recently.   This is a process in which we would try to test those statements.   In addition, there are in fact rumours going around that needs to be clarified... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: If we can assist... (intervention).

MS TERREBLANCHE: ...and this is part of this process.  If we had it in public, of course, that would be a problem.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Ja, that's my main concern, Mr Chairman, and if we can help to throw light on that, I'll certainly be the first person to be of assistance.   I mean we all want to know what really happened, though we know what happened, we don't know what caused it, and if we can get to the real facts of that, I mean the Helderberg accident already has had its impact very strongly on the whole of the aviation industry in terms of safety standards which have been improved, in terms of money that has had to be spent, if we can find out anything more that could assist in that direction, you will have my full co-operation.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Thank you.   I think we would like to just start off by asking you the exact nature of the relationship between SAA and Armscor during the mid - late 80's.   There have been statements to us that you and other members of SAA, as a delegation, went to see Armscor not long before the Helderberg disaster to get some assurances that they would not inadvertently put dangerous substances on board passenger planes.   We are all aware that there are inter-national regulations and that airlines try to be in line with that as often as possible, but that sometimes things go wrong.   Can you just clarify to us what your agreement with Armscor was?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: The agreement would be exactly the same with any other commercial customer of SAA, whether it be Anglo American, whether it be Sappi, whether it be Mondi, whether it be Old Mutual, no agreements, they're customers.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just find out from you, Ms Terreblanche, when you say that there are statements or there is infor-mation, do you have these statements, are they in written form?   Then I would suggest that those statements must be made available to the witness, the witness must be able to see what has been written, so that he's not at sea, it's an entitlement which the law allows him to do.   Can you arrange for him to have these statements?   It will also facilitate examination and for him to reply.   If, for instance, you are going to be questioning him on statements made, for instance, for argument's sake, by Klatzow, then you should say, "This is a statement that has been made to me by Klatzow, this is a statement made to me by Mitchell, by so and so, by so and so"?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Mr Chairman, I'll make available what I can, I just need to get some assurances from you, as we have discussed in detail this morning, there are some people who are quite scared, so what do we do about those?

CHAIRPERSON: Unfortunately, if you are going to be asking Mr Van der Veer on the basis of the statement which you have, the law is very clear, especially in the constitutional dispensation, it should be on the basis that he has a copy of that statement.
 I will grant an adjournment for you to organise such statements as you have on the basis of which you will be questioning Mr Van der Veer, and then to make those available to him and give him some sufficient time to get through them, and Mr Van der Veer of course you will understand that these statements are given to you in confidence and that such evidence as you will be giving in relation thereto will be in confidence, and due regard will be given to the nervousness with which these people gave the statements to us, but you also have got rights, and I think it would be unfair for you to go into an inquiry blindfolded, speaking as a lawyer I won't be able to live with my conscience, even though lawyers are not supposed to have consciences.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for a moment to afford Mr... (intervention).

MS TERREBLANCHE: Dr Klatzow says he's got some specific questions which are not based on statements, which we can go ahead with in the meantime.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I would prefer that we should adjourn, and it should not be a long adjournment, and then, so that when we do start - let's see how far we can take the matter if we re-assemble at quarter to three, so that we have one flow and if you need further time, then you can get further time.  Do you think 15 minutes will be enough, or do you need more time?

MS TERREBLANCHE: It will be enough.   Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: We are adjourned until quarter to three.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: (still under oath)

MS TERREBLANCHE: Mr Van der Veer, I just want to clarify that I have interviewed a large number of people and taken statements from them which were with the view to be sworn, although we have had too little time, so at this stage, as it is not sworn, I regard it as notes.   I would, however, tell you if I refer to anything specific and if there's anything else, I'll make it available to you.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

MS TERREBLANCHE: I would like to go just back to, can you just tell us when you started your career in SAA, and as what?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: 1st of October 1983, as chief executive officer.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Before that, where were you, where did you come from, to SAA?