Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

GEORGE BIZOS: Then we can proceed to the next one.  Can we please go to paragraph 45?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 77.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now
"Did the CCB launch a five point plan to intimidate Desmond Tutu?
		No, one or two jokes were made regarding his suspicions."
That is an exculpatory statement.  Do you agree that that is an exculpatory statement?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Chairperson.  There was no such five point plan to intimidate him.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but do you agree that your answer is an exculpatory answer?  To make a joke is not intimidation and your answer was that there were
"Only two jokes were made regarding his superstitions."

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, that is how it is stated there, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: ;   Yes, but that's not a crime.  That doesn't incriminate you anything to make a couple of jokes about the "bygelowe" of an Archbishop.  Is it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I've already answered that, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well then when you tried to avoid questions this morning about not wanting to answer the questions on the ground that they may incriminate you, you were contradicting the statement that you had made for the purposes of the Harms Commission.  What is the answer to that question?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have no answer, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: No answer.  Well the Committee will draw its own conclusions.  You see, that goes, not only were you prepared to be untruthful outside the Commission, this shows that you were prepared to be untruthful this morning to the Commission in relation to the matters before it.  Have you got any answer or comment to make in relation to that?

MR WESSELS: With respect, Mr Chairman, perhaps Mr Bizos can say in what regard.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well he says, Mr Chairman, that he would incriminate himself if he answered the questions honestly.  What I am saying to him is, well perhaps in fairness to him, either the one or the other is false and my learned friend is technically correct, but I'm happy with that.  Either the one or the other is false.  Which is false, or don't you want to say?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have no answer Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well.  Let us go to paragraph 49 on page 78.  It's actually paragraph 51 to - oh paragraph 49, I beg your pardon, yes, 49.
Question:  "Which aware/unaware and non-members of the CCB were involved with this project and to what degree?
		Answer:  "Unknown."
Does this mean that you did not know on the 2nd of February 1990 when you wrote the statement that you did not know who was involved in project Apie?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I object to this question, Mr Chairman, on the same basis as I've set out before.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we can move on to 51.

GEORGE BIZOS: 51, yes, thank you Mr Chairman, it's my next note.
"Was the explosion at the creche at Athlone an approved project of the CCB?"
		"I know of no explosion at the creche in Athlone."
Was that a deliberate lie?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, if I can remember correctly, that was the advice then from the advocate that there was no explosion at a creche and it was seen as the Early Learning Centre and we were not aware if it had have been a creche, that it was a creche.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know, you are insulting the intelligence of everyone that is hearing you, Mr, you are insulting the intelligence.  Did you know at the time that you said
"I know of no explosion at a creche in Athlone"
but you knew at the time that the Early Learning Centre in Athlone which was running a "kleuterskool" had been bombed, is that correct?  Is that correct?  I'll repeat - is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson I have already given my answer on this question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Sir, the question was, did you know at the time that you signed this statement on the 2nd of February 1990 that a nursery school in Athlone had been bombed by the persons whose names you mentioned this morning and in respect of which you have applied for amnesty?  Are you saying that you thought that the question that they asked you referred to another "kleuterskool" at another place in Athlone and not one that your men had destroyed?  Is that what your answer is?   Because if it is, I am giving you notice that I am going to submit that you're insulting the intelligence of the Committee and everyone else that listens to you.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have told you what the circumstances were.  That question was answered on the advice of the legal representative and this was the context in which the CCB was under pressure from the entire Government and it was told to me that it was not a creche because - it was a technical answer on the question, maybe it was done because the Government was afraid because it was an authorised project and they did not want to admit and for that reason it was put like that and it was on this advice that I answered it in the following way.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am not going to allow you, if I'm allowed by the Committee, to get away with that, so please tell me, I asked you originally whether anybody placed any pressure on your to be untruthful, you said there was some pressure but I was not untruthful.  Do you recall that?  You are now telling us that you were untruthful because an advocate suggested it to you.  Well, why did you lie even if it was and I don't know who this advocate was and I don't accept it, having regard to the other untruths that you have told us, that he did advise you, but why did you succumb to the advice of this corrupt advocate, if you are to be believed?
Why did you lie at the request of an advocate?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I did not tell a lie.  I've explained to you.  I have said that it was a technical answer to the question of the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Verster, I can speak Afrikaans and I can understand Afrikaans but I am not totally fluent, I'm only reasonably fluent.  The word creche, in English we have kindergarten, a creche, and you could even include an Early Learning Centre.  Now a kindergarten is usually a school for kids before they get into the formal, I don't know what they call it, Grade 1 now, or pre-primary, whatever, a creche is a place where you can leave young kids, usually used by working parents and they put their little kids there and it's different from a kindergarten quite often and an Early Learning Centre could be anything from a creche through to a pre-primary school.  Now are there different words in Afrikaans for "kleuterskool" distinguishing an Early Learning Centre from a creche?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There can be different approaches, Mr Chairperson, but the specific question I remember, it was a point of view from the specific advocate that this is not.  It is an Early Learning Centre, it is not necessarily a creche and this was an answer based on a technical basis and I thought based on this that this was the correct answer based on the advice of the advocate at that stage and he will probably deny it today, that that was the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: You knew that you were making a statement for the Harms Commission.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No this was during an investigation where I had become aware of it and it happened at the time when Eugene de Kock experienced difficulties and I think Ferdi Barnard also started experiencing difficulties and what had happened is that we could quite clearly see that the police were trying to give the Defence Force the blame and there were many in-fights during that time and based on this, we were very carefully and we also acted on advice from the military side, from the Defence Force side and they said that we had to be careful for the police because they now wanted to place their problems on our shoulders and this was the atmosphere in which I made the statement.