Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-06

MR VISSER: I rather expected that would be your answer.  That clarifies it entirely.  In short the answer is then that it would be handled on a need to know basis for security reasons?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: And basically the ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: As is the case in all military operations basically, yes.  Alright, fine.
	The other point is just really a point on correction and that deals, actually that's the first point which I mentioned to you, the mandate which was received.  Now you see we have in volume 3 at page 84 - will you just bear with me.  It's volume 2 Mr Chairman, but perhaps it may be better to refer you to the green book seeing that we have all been referring to that.  It's Exhibit A 2.1, the green book.  I want to draw your attention, if I may, to the top of page 47.  It is "ANC Structures 1983 to 1985".  Now it says this -
"The senior organs in the forward areas had not been particularly effective in improving coordination between the political and military aspects of the struggle".
Now if I may interrupt myself here, the background to this was that at one point there was concern among the members of the executive of the ANC that the military was going its own way and it wasn't really following the dictates of the political struggle and that was ...(intervention)

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: That is not so.  It is not so.  That is not what that means.

MR VISSER: Okay will you tell us what that means.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.  What was happening is that the ANC wanted the political organisations to be supporting the military struggle and that the military struggle had to also be bolstering the political mobilisation of the people.  It was in that context that the ANC also moved towards the creation of the senior organs in those which were political military structures.  It created the PMC, the Political Military Committee; it created senior organs in each of the front line areas.  At no stage was there a suggestion that the military did not subordinate itself to the political will.  If anything, and if you give me time I can point out exactly here that at all times the military totally accepted the political leadership of the ANC and never did that change.

MR VISSER: I see, yes.  Well that makes it quite clear.  I apologise if I was wrong because that's not really the point.  The point comes in the second paragraph.  It states that
"In April 1983 a conference of all front commanders and commissars was held in Luanda to address the continuing problem of a lack of effective coordination between the military and political aspects of the struggle".

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Sorry, where are you reading please?

MR VISSER: At the top of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The second sentence just of no.5.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Oh I see in the same - I thought you said the second paragraph.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now the only issue that I want to point your attention to is the date of April 1983.
	...[inaudible] reading of this submission, that that was the date upon which all that follows now was decided, April 1983 and all these structures and reorganisation of structures took place, would that be correct?  So in other words, the change came, to put it bluntly, in April 1983.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: The change in what Mr Chairperson, if I may ask?

MR VISSER: Well, the change in ...[intervention]

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Because here we are talking of structures.

MR VISSER: The change which we spoke about here, which the ANC speaks about here, the new PMC or ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think, are you referring to - prior to 1983, the structure was as it appears on page 44 and then the structure ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Well no, not 44 that was - are you saying that this structure here as it appears on 46 was decided in April '83.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you asking that?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he's asking.  That that structure ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: And perhaps before your answer, can I tell you what I'm talking about?  I'm talking about the contents of paragraph 49 of Exhibit A, your evidence.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes?

MR VISSER: So now do you know what I'm talking about when I'm talking about the change?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: And very simply my question to you is, you said in paragraph 49
"it was the middle of 1983"
I am attempting, with your cooperation, to establish whether it was perhaps more specifically in April 1983 because that is the date that is referred to here by the ANC?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, that conference was held in April, it does not mean that an immediate reorganisation then takes place within a day or the very next morning you wake up and say: "Tsak, everything gone, we now have to re-establish structures".  It was some time thereafter where further discussions were then held after the conference by the senior structures of the movement.
	And after that Joe Slovo came back and said that he had now been appointed as chief of staff of MK, that he had been instructed to then move from Maputo to Lusaka, that it was then that I was appointed commander of special operations.

MR VISSER: Well you know I must tell you Mr Ismail, I've read what the ANC submission says, I've read paragraph 49 and I want to suggest to you that none of what you've said now appears on the plain language of what I read here.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: If I may refer you - refer you Mr Chairperson, to the third paragraph of that section on the ANC structures.  It says
"By 1983 a new military headquarters had been established, bringing together and reorganising the old general headquarters along former military lines"
It suggests that, exactly what we're talking about.

MR VISSER: So what's your point?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: You say you do not see how, what I'm stating in paragraph 49 is related to what is stated in that section 5: ANC structures.

MR VISSER: No, what I'm saying to you is, I read here:  in April 1983 there was a conference which introduced all these changes.  I read in paragraph 49 of Exhibit A, that is was in the middle of 1983 that all these things happened.  And you are saying that it took months afterwards.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: With respect, the question is quite unfair ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he said was that the conference was held in 1983 but you didn't get instant new structures, they weren't actually established as a result immediately at the conference.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They came about later, they were probably spawned at the conference.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Conferences are large meetings as it were.  The other structures, the senior structures would then have to consider those decisions, would then have to make decisions on it, would then have to change the appointments of people to various structures etc., and that took a month or two.  And that is why we come to the point of about the middle of 1983.

MR VISSER: Oh I see, I understand what you're saying.  I assume that that would entail that nothing was done before the conference, that everybody waited until the conference before this was decided and then there was an implementation which was then commenced.  I understand what you're saying.  In fairness to you I'm going to argue differently on the words here, I'm going to suggest that it was in April 1983 that all of this happened.

LEGAL COUNSEL: I wonder if my learned friend could just clarify for us what is it that he says happened in April and not later.

MR VISSER: What is stated by the witness in paragraph 49 and what is stated in the ANC submission at page 47 of Exhibit A2.1, I thought that was made perfectly clear.