Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: The Transkei issue, we had comrades in the command in Transkei.  The question of training was discussed, a number of resolutions were taken on the question of training.
	If people were under attack and if people really needed training, if we really need people to be effective in their acts of defence, then we must give them training, but from Southern Natal's point of view, in fact I was afraid, given the security situation, I couldn't perceive a situation whereby we bus people with a kombi to Transkei and you don't suffer consequences in terms of security consequences into those areas.
	Yes, I have been to Transkei, I have seen some comrades in Transkei whom from the reports, sometimes were called into the Transkei.  There are people who are coming from Southern Natal, are you aware of them that they are in here and they are receiving training in Transkei.
	Because of logistical reasons, we couldn't, didn't have enough money.  If you allowed people to go and train in an area, you must be in a position to supplement in terms of the (indistinct) food, I was (indistinct) kinds of situations.
	We said that in Southern Natal specifically, we are not going to take people for training down there, but if we have a report that certain people have been trained in Transkei, then we will not stop them from doing so.

MR LAX: Okay.  The second question I have was related to the provision of ammunition.  We heard talk of people making their own home made firearms and the only ammunition you have primarily spoken about, have been AK47 ammunition.  I wondered whether as part of the ordinance, efforts were made to obtain for example most home made firearms would use shotgun cartridges by and large.
	I know a fair bit about how home made firearms were made and how they were used, we have heard it in other hearings.  Did you provide through ordinance channels, other kinds of ammunition besides AK47's?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: We didn't have, like SSG for instance.  It is something that we don't use as MK, we have never used it.  All that type of ammunition, we don't have it.  Even now, so we couldn't.
	People were getting it from wherever they were sourcing it in.

MR LAX: In terms of handguns, 9 mm?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Handguns we had, we had Stechin, we had macarov pistols, but which were meant only for people in command, for going about at night and doing whatever.  We had to arm them at some stage and make sure that they are safe.

MR LAX: One final question, and that is again on the issue of accountability and discipline.  I didn't really ask it in great detail of the others, because they weren't as directly involved as you may have been, as Chief of Staff and so on.  What steps did you take to ensure accountability apart from political education and so on?
	You must have got reports for example, of indiscretions, of rouge elements within SDU's of the tsotsi's and so on.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Let me take one incident in Port Shepstone.  There was a pseudo SDU that was operating, known as Mkozi for instance, where I think that is what comrade Jeff was referring to when they went with comrade Kadimeng down there, but on our own as MK, we made it a point that any comrade who is ours down there, must actually go and disarm those people.
	We said to our own Self Defence Units down there, they must go and disarm them, whatever it cost, so long the people are not satisfied with what they are doing.  They were actually killing our own people, so we said whatever it takes for you to go and disarm them, you do it.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Just one question Mr Sithole.  The weaponry that you received, that you described that came through military Headquarters, each and every weapon that came in that way, were you aware of or did you delegate the function to somebody else, some other MK cadre for some other region?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Any weaponry that was earmarked for Southern Natal, I knew about it.  I was responsible for it, I was responsible for its distribution.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions arising Mr Wills, from questions put by members of the panel?

MR WILLS: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sithole, that concludes your evidence.  Is there going to be any further evidence Mr Wills?
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, as I understand the way these hearings have been set up, this has essentially to deal with the matters of SDU's, although my view is that I would be in a position to close the evidence in relation to the three applicants that have testified today and then move on afresh tomorrow.
	I don't intend calling any further witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: I might say that we have read for the sake of our lives and we have read the submissions that have been made by the ANC particularly in regard to the SDU's.

MR WILLS: And there is in the submissions that the ANC made, the first submissions, there was just the resolution.  I don't know whether the Committee has seen it, but I beg leave to hand it up.  It is Section 5.3 of the submission dated August 1996, that deals with the policies behind the formation of the Self Defence Units.
	I raise it in this context, it is already indicated in Mr Radebe's application, the Section is actually quoted, if I can just refer you to that.
	It is on page 10 of the bundle.

MR LAX: What page is that of the ANC submission, if you could just refer us to that?

MR WILLS: Page 10 of the ANC submission, Section 5(3).

CHAIRPERSON: We have that submission.

MR WILLS: Those documents that you have referred to, I will use in argument.  If I may with respect Mr Chairperson, suggest that because of the nature of the offences that the three applicants may have committed, it is quite a difficult legal position in regard to exactly what Sections of the Firearms Act or the Arms and Ammunition Act and Explosives Act have been contravened.
	I submit that it would be appropriate for me to submit written argument in regard to these things, where I shall endeavour to cover all the aspects in respect of which they might have committed offences.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Do you agree with that Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Certainly Mr Chairman, I don't wish to argue as well and I don't have any objections if amnesty is granted.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Well, then ladies and gentlemen, this brings us to the end of these hearings.  There is going to be no further evidence led in respect of the three applications that we have heard today.
	You have heard Mr Wills, he has requested to submit written argument to us, written submissions to us which will be submitted by?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I would like to negotiate that, it is quite difficult for me to do it immediately, but I will negotiate that with Ms Thabete and then we will notify you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Wills will then submit written Heads and we will as soon as possible after that, issue a written decision in respect of each of the applications.  Thank you very much.
	Mr Wills, now we've got Mr Dlamini's application, and we will start half past nine tomorrow?

MR WILLS: That will be in order, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will therefore adjourn until tomorrow at half past nine, with the application of Mr Dlamini and also Mr Zulu.

MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We've got two further applications, but you are not involved in Mr Zulu's application?

MR WILLS: Not to my knowledge at this stage, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS