Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-08

MR VAN DER MERWE: Ja, I think the point I am trying to make is that it is highly unlikely that he will make admissions to a person who would eventually one day be able to give evidence against him.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: He never believed that will ever happen, Sir. He never believed that, he probably never believed that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: He never believed?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: He never believed that he will be facing these people here and sitting here. (Laughter).

MR VAN DER MERWE: The question is not whether he would be facing the people here, the question is whether he would have to face you in, as you referred to it, as their legal system?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: No, he knew that, he was so confident, he was so confident as I told you, he read - what he was referring to the honourable gentleman there, when he quoted in that document of the state of emergency, that is what Nieuwoudt read and worshipped, and he applied it to the letter.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, but despite all the odds, Mr Jack,  various successful prosecutions did take place against members of the South African Police as well as civil claims. You were one of the people who benefited by a civil claim.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Let me tell you this ... (intervention).

MR VAN DER MERWE: Is it true or is it not true?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Let me tell you this, if you want me to answer that.  Are you aware that Mr Nieuwoudt's main objection to the likes of the Molly Blackburnes, because they brought the idea to us that we could go and lay charges or complain to police, if assaulted.  But before that, they knew we would never dare to do that. How many cases do you know, except this one, where political detainees have ever laid charges or civil claims against security police; how many cases?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Would you care to answer my question, please?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: What is your question? I am trying to answer your question. I am explaining to you that Nieuwoudt feared no claims from detainees, because it won't work.

MR VAN DER MERWE: That was not my question. I will reiterate and repeat the question.  The question was simply, various successful prosecutions were instituted against members of the police and various civil claims were either heard or settled by the then government of the National Party for assaults that took place in detention or things which were untoward at that stage.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: But I dispute the statement part of that statement, that's - and I think we will continue disputing that.  I am asking you which other cases were ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think we are not be working with statistics here.  You are making a general statement that there have been cases of people who have claimed successfully against the State.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you aware that there have been people who have made successful claims against the State?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I know only of this specific one, and this is before Mr Nieuwoudt boasted to me.  After that I can believe that what he says it will be correct, after that Nieuwoudt will be more careful, but before that, he never knew that was possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's your answer.  (Laughter).

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, your Worship. You alleged that you were arrested on the 2nd of August?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Ja.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And not on the 3rd of August. Is that correct?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Where were you detained on the night of the 2nd of August?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: On the evening of the 2nd of August I spent the night at the Algoa police station.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And when were you transferred to St Albans?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: No, from there I was taken to Louis le Grange to be tortured by Deon Nieuwoudt and others and from there I was taken back to Algoa police station by Deon Nieuwoudt and from there I was taken in the normal procedure by the riot squad to St Albans Prison.

MR VAN DER MERWE: What was the rank of Mr Nieuwoudt at that stage?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Of who?

MR VAN DER MERWE: The rank of Mr Nieuwoudt at that stage?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I can't be sure of that, I presume he was a warrant-officer and I think that's what I thought he was.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Ja, you gave evidence to say that he was a warrant-officer.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Ja.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And that is in actual fact wrong.  But you won't dispute that?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Well, I mean, it wasn't my business to know his ranks, whatever it was.  I mean ... (Laughter).

MR VAN DER MERWE: In other words, what I am getting to is that of all the incidents that occurred here, there are some possibility of making mistakes with regard to the facts. Is that right?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: No, I mean - look, when you talk of the - whether he was a warrant-officer or whatever, I could be saying he is a warrant-officer even this day, I don't think it is a mistake, I mean ...

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything material that turns on this kind of questioning?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, Commissioner, I think I will get to it eventually, but I will leave it at that. I will step on to something else.  You also alleged that the incident with the car and Fort Brown, if I can just get some clarity on that.  You were tortured by unknown assailants, due to the fact that you had a bag over your head. Is that correct?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes, it is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So you cannot confirm or deny that Deon Nieuwoudt was involved there?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Ja, I have stated that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Good.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: On the torture.

MR VAN DER MERWE: That's right. When you were driven to Fort Brown, you say that you were driven in the back of your motor vehicle. Is that correct?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: That's correct, in a car, a proper car. Was it a Skyline? It was something like that, a yellow Skyline. I am not sure, ja.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And you also said that Nieuwoudt was the driver?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Is it correct then that what happened is that you were transferred from Bethelsdorp police station via the ... (intervention).

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: The torture camp.

MR VAN DER MERWE: ... the torture camp as you call it.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes.

MR VAN DER MERWE: To Fort Brown for further detention.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: That's correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Is it - do you know what the reason was for your transfer to Fort Brown?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Yes, I know, it was because I was in 19 - at the end of 1985, '86, former Pres Samora Machel died in an air crash and the comrades decided to embark on a hunger strike.  You know, it was spontaneous, it happened, because there was no planned thing with anybody else, which I supported.  And after that, I went to Livingstone Hospital where I was sick, and I was taken by security policemen there back to Sanlam, to Louis le Grange, where Roelofse, who showed his anger to me about the fact that I have participated on that strike there, okay. And then from there I was taken back to Bethelsdorp and from Bethelsdorp, of course, that is what I was tortured for.  At this torture camp.

MR VAN DER MERWE: May I just confer with my client?

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask, when you talk about the torture camp, is this some place other than the police station?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: It is a - there was a place called Willowdene.

CHAIRPERSON: Willowdale?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Willowdene.

CHAIRPERSON: Willowdene?