Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

JUDGE MGOEPE: It's not clear to me whether you answered the questions with regard to Mr Mosese also mean that at the scene you did hear Mr Mosese asking you people to leave the deceased alone, did you hear him say so at the scene?  I know that you probably say you heard him testify like that in court, but what about at the scene?

MR MATELA: I do not know this Mosese, I just heard him giving all this evidence.  But what I know is there are people who were being bribed to give evidence against us.

JUDGE MGOEPE: At the scene did you hear anybody asking you people to stay away from the deceased, whether you knew that person or not?

MR MATELA: No Sir.  There was no such - all the people who were there were angry and they were rejoicing that they got White people.  He could never manage to stop all those people.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why did you think there was a need to patrol the area and to protect the community?

MR MATELA: Please repeat your question.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why did you think it was necessary or there was a need for you to patrol the area and to try and protect the community?

MR MATELA: In those days it seemed that people's lives were in danger and there were these group called the Russians who were holding meetings with the police and
sometimes people will just come and we would hear that there were people who were being attacked in the township, and that is when we went to the ANC office to explain this and the decision was taken to go to the police station so that the police should patrol.  But the policemen refused to protect the people and therefore the ANC took the decision that we should go and protect the community.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And in which way, if any, would the killing of these four people promote or advance the security of the public in that area?

MR MATELA: Please clarify the question.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You have explained to us why you went on to take part in the killing of these people or the assault, but what I want to ask you is to explain to us what, in which way, or what you wanted to achieve by killing these people?  What purpose would their death serve?  Or what did you hope to achieve by killing these people?

MR MATELA: It was to fight for freedom.  It was to fight for freedom and defend ourselves.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you didn't get it that night after killing those people, did you?  Did you get your freedom?

MR MATELA: No we didn't attain it at that time.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now how did their death contribute towards you getting your freedom, that's what I want to know?  How did you think it would contribute?

MR MATELA: At that time White people were randomly killing Black people and they would put on Mandela T-shirts and killing people.  We knew that we were going to have freedom but we didn't expect to have it overnight.  And we knew that these people would be coming into attack, and even the way that they were attacking the comrades showed their
behaviour.

JUDGE MGOEPE: After their death did you think anything was achieved?

MR MATELA: No Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am probably going to be repeating this question in another form, well you say that nothing was achieved, what did you hope would be achieved?

MR MATELA: We were not expecting to find anything in return but at that time the situation was such that people were expecting to be attacked at any time.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Just one point I'd like to clear up, after these people had been killed there was evidence that you and your co-appellant went to Mosese's house and that you stood in the door armed with a knife and punched him, do you remember that evidence?

MR MATELA: Yes I do remember but I've never come across Mosese and I don't know him.  There was such evidence but I don't know him.  I saw him for the first time in court.

JUDGE WILSON: After he fell down you said he should be dragged away and killed?

MR MATELA: Yes I do remember all that evidence but I am not aware of all that.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You didn't know Mosese you say, but did you hit somebody who fell down and in respect of whom you said he must be dragged away?  It doesn't matter whether you knew his name or not, but did you in fact do that, that's what we want to know?

MR MATELA: I beat a White person during that attack and none of the comrades that were there because we were not
there to fight amongst ourselves, we were all comrades that were busy patrolling.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yet it seems to me that if what the witness has said in court is anything to go by you did play quite an active role there during that night, you heard what they said.

MR MATELA: If I had played a major role on that night I would tell the Truth Commission about it, but the role that I played on that night was such that I did not have such a big role.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were you a prominent member of the ANC in that area at that time?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What position did you hold?

MR MATELA: I was a marshal.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were you - or rather do you think you were well-known in that area?

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you take part at all in the attack on the woman?

MR MATELA: No I had a role in attacking the men, not the woman.  I grabbed the man who was trying to run away.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you never anywhere near the woman?

MR MATELA: I do not remember clearly because what I could just see clearly was the man lying on the ground and the other one they were busy attacking and the one was trying to run away.

JUDGE WILSON: So you have no recollection of being near the woman that night?

MR MATELA: No I don't remember.

JUDGE WILSON: And yet her blood was found on your clothes, can you explain that?

MR MATELA: I don't remember that it was blood stains on my clothes, I just remember that it was the blood stains from this man, but not that woman.

JUDGE WILSON: You see the evidence was led, and it appears at page 634 of the record, that you freely handed over to the police a white T-shirt and a pair of long trousers which had blood spots on them and after testing they were found to be similar to - the same as the blood groups of two of the deceased, that is the driver and the woman, do you remember the Judge said that when he gave judgment in your trial?

MR MATELA: I do remember but I don't remember that that woman came near to me at some stage, but there were many people at that time, there was confusion, but I didn't notice that she did come close to me.

ADV DE JAGER: You said one of them tried to run away, weren't they surrounded by 500 people round about?

MR MATELA: They were surrounded by many people and this one man tried to stand up and run and that's when I came across him and picked up the iron rod and hit him.

ADV DE JAGER: Where could he run to?

MR MATELA: I do not know because this happened right in the middle of Mashengoville.

ADV DE JAGER: But you now showed, I've watched your hands, you said they were surrounded by these people.

MR MATELA: Yes it's true he was surrounded, but you know that when somebody is being attacked sometimes they wouldn't just stand there and do nothing, he was just trying to run away from the attack.

ADV DE JAGER: Like anybody would do if he's facing death.

MR MATELA: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: But he couldn't run away because he was surrounded.

MR MATELA: He had to try and run because he was surrounded by heavy pangas, and even when I hit him somebody else did the same, somebody hit him as well.  He never managed to escape.

ADV DE JAGER: Have you seen at any stage, any weapons with the deceased?  Did they have any weapons?  Did you at any stage see any weapons on their personal or did they carry a weapon, any kind of weapon?

MR MATELA: Are you talking about the White people or the Black people?

ADV DE JAGER: The White people, yes.