Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, I was involved in the Security Branch and many a time I saw people that had died, I am sorry the audience has disrupted me somewhat, I have often seen how people had been killed, whether it be in an accident or any other situation, I didn't have much sympathy towards it otherwise I wouldn't have participated in the second incident.  In the second incident I still reconciled myself with the action and participated in it.

MR MALAN: If I can just have some clarity, the fact that you realised that the persons who you expected to be armed, were unarmed, and that some of them were women, it did not upset you, it did not bring any remorse to you, they were still members of the enemy, you were not shocked or uncomfortable?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: At that stage, that was the case.

MR MALAN: Very well, thank you.

MR MOERANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you.  I think he has been given sufficient opportunity to deal with the question and his attitude has come out very clearly.   You went for the second round on the 12th of June?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: As far as you were concerned, you were fighting your enemy and you had to eliminate your enemy?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You forgot that you were a policeman whose first duty is to uphold the law?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes Chairperson, as I have said I was with the Security Branch and for me, it was also very political.   I just want to express myself adequately - I am sorry, I have forgotten the last section of the question.

CHAIRPERSON: It was put to you, it is a rhetorical question really and it was that after saying that you felt that you were fighting your enemy and you had to kill them, then it was put to you that you forgot that you were a policeman with a duty to uphold the law.

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, at that stage I was a member of the Security Branch and our primary duties were to combat terrorism, to collect information and our primary duty according to my experience was also to combat the ANC who were involved in the ANC at that stage, even if we had to bend some of the rules.

MR MOERANE: Wasn't your prime duty, Sergeant Barnard, to uphold the law, protect life and property?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, that is correct, but as I have said at that stage I was a member of the Security Branch and we handled with terrorism and insurgents as it would be in this case and the way I felt was that any possible method had to be used to prevent the results of insurgency and then possible further acts of terrorism.

MR MOERANE: Yes, you regarded the ANC in particular as a terrorist organisation?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, that was so that the government which we served at that stage, regarded it as an unlawful organisation and I accepted this organisation as a terrorist organisation.

MR MOERANE: And you regarded members of the ANC who came into the country illegally, in other words, not through proper channels like border posts, as fair game, in other words that you could kill them at will?  Was that your state of mind?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: No, I am not saying that we could kill any ANC person on a random basis, we were involved in a different situation than the ANC persons who walked the streets.  Great protest marches were held by the ANC and I don't think that we would have gone there and simply killed off everybody.

MR MOERANE: Why didn't you proceed with your normal duties as a policeman, investigate crime, arrest suspects, uphold the law?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I was with the Uniform Branch first and in time I ended up at Colel at the border post and from there, I became involved in small scale informer management and later I was taken up at the Security Branch at Piet Retief, through that channel.

MR MOERANE: Is the impression that some people had at the time that the Security Branch, particularly in the Eastern Transvaal was particularly vicious to the ANC, was that a legitimate perception?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Well, I cannot speak for what everybody thinks, it is a very broad perspective that you have sketched there.

MR MOERANE: Well, the perception that if you got caught by the Eastern Transvaal members of the Security Branch, chances are that you would be killed or at least tortured.

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, I cannot respond to that, as I said at that stage I had only spent a year at Piet Retief and I didn't have much experience with the occurrence of such deeds or whether such deeds were occurring, as I have said I didn't know the protracted history of the Eastern Transvaal.  I worked in Natal and then I went to the border post after which I was taken up at Piet Retief Security Branch, so I didn't have a lengthy knowledge of the events in the Eastern Transvaal and the deeds to which you have referred.

MR MOERANE: Are you still a member of the Police Force?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Or Police Service as it is now called.  What is your rank now?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I am a Captain.

MR MOERANE: Stationed at?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: At Knysna.

MR MOERANE: Knysna?  I see.  In which particular branch of the Police Service?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: The Detective Branch at Knysna.

MR MOERANE: Let's deal with the second incident, I want to concentrate on the alleged shooting.  Please tell the Honourable Committee what happened after this vehicle had come to a stop, the kombi.

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: After the vehicle stopped, we had formed a line on the side of the road and when the vehicle came to a standstill, I think Mr De Kock was in the front and the members jumped up and ran in the direction of the vehicle.  I cannot say exactly where I was, I was somewhere in the middle of the group and when we approached the vehicle, I was approximately in the middle of the  left side of the vehicle, that is where I positioned myself, and then I saw that the left front door was going open and as it opened, a person jumped out or climbed out and shots were fired.  I was very strongly under the impression that these shots came from the person who was climbing out of the vehicle, however, I couldn't see any flashes or anything like that.  As I said, people were in front of me.  I assumed that the first shots came from the person who was climbing out of the vehicle, however, that was my own sentiment or my own opinion, I didn't see him specifically fire a shot or see a flash come out of the gun that he had because there were people who were in front of me and obstructing my view.

MR MOERANE: Yes, the truth of the matter is that you did not see that person fire?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: No, I didn't see the flash that would indicate that a shot had been fired.  As I have said, I wasn't right at the front of the line, in order to see exactly what was going on and to see the barrel and the flame emerging from the barrel.

MR MOERANE: Then is there any reason why you said in paragraph 5 on page 84, that
"... a person with an AK47 jumped out and started firing"?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: That is what I have just said, when the person climbed out of the vehicle, shots went off and I assumed that these shots came from the person who had climbed out of the vehicle on the left front side.  It may also have been some of the members who were in the front of the line, who fired the shots but in my mind I accepted that it sounded as if it could have been that person.

MR MOERANE: Well, isn't the truth of the matter that that is the version which is supposed to fit in with your amnesty applications, all six or seven of you whose applications were typed from a particular computer and are identical on this aspect?