Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR NGUBANE: My concern is that I have information that although my line is not that you were not under political orders; I grant you that.  I have information that in spite of the fact that you had political orders to execute these acts, you on top of that had your own motive of leading a flashy lifestyle for which you were probably paid.

MR WILLS: Sorry.  Mr Chairperson, before that question is answered, may I enquire as to whether the source of this instruction is going to come before this Commission so it can also be subject to the same scrutiny under cross-examination?  I think that's fair in the circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that whether or not - he's just putting it to him under cross-examination.  I don't think it's an unfair question.  He's saying he's received information that you had your own motive to further a flashy lifestyle.  I think that's not an unfair question.  I don't know if it will be necessary to have the informant - well, if the informants of that information is not going to come to evidence I don't think that in itself will disqualify the question.  I think it's not an unfair question.

MR WILLS: As the Committee pleases.

MR NGUBANE: Do you have any comments to that?

DJ MKHIZE: Can you please repeat the question Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: The information I have is that you led a flashy lifestyle, wearing expensive jewellery, for example expensive leather jackets and the motive for commission - sorry.  To sustain that lifestyle you were probably paid for killing the people.  What is your comment to that?

DJ MKHIZE: I deny that, because firstly I am a fully fledged professional policeman.  To be paid as a Caprivian happened before I became a policeman.  If I am alleged to have been leading that lifestyle, I did this from my own salary that I earned as a policeman.  And it has been exposed to this Commission that I did indeed do my police duties.  I was not only involved in the duties of the Caprivians, but I also did my police duties.
	It also depends on whether a person has financial control or how you use your money; maybe on your house or on liquor or on clothes.  It is a person's personal choice on how you spend your money.  It has nothing to do with my activities.  I received a salary like everybody which I used to maintain my lifestyle.

MR NGUBANE: Let us turn to the attack at the Pundada's bus stop.  That would be on pg 96 of the record and on your affidavit pg 24, starting from para 46.  Do you agree with me that that bus stop was not a cul de sac; the bus was still going to proceed to other bus stops.  Right?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, it was still proceeding to areas like J1.

MR NGUBANE: Do you agree with me that when you described this incident in your affidavit, you said that you identified the bus as an ANC bus stop, but there are no particulars which justify your identification of this bus as an ANC bus?

DJ MKHIZE: It is not so Mr Ngubane.  To respond to this question whether the bus was still proceeding, yes that is true.  It was not the last stop.  It was still proceeding towards other sections which were known to be ANC strongholds like J1.  What I can assure you of is that it was not going to stop at J2 under any circumstances, because in that area an ANC person wouldn't have set foot.  So the bus wouldn't have stopped at J2, but would have stopped eventually at J1.
	Secondly with reference to the fact that we didn't have assurance that this was indeed an ANC bus, we did have such assurances.  Firstly if maybe there was an IFP member or a non-member of the ANC, that person wouldn't have gotten off at that bus stop because that was an ANC stronghold area.  Therefore a person who got off at that bus stop would have been known to belong to the ANC.
	Secondly they wouldn't be singing ANC freedom songs.  You wouldn't expect Inkatha members to sing such songs.  Therefore if people who were on the bus were singing such songs it is clearly evident to you what organisation they belonged to.

MR NGUBANE: Well, according to your affidavit there is no mention of the ANC songs with regard to this incident.  The only mention that you make of ANC songs being sung is the Ntokosweni bus stop incident.  Do you realize that?

DJ MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, when you write such statements it depends on the abilities of the statement taker.  Because the statement is written through questioning.  It depends on whether this person can enquire about specifics like how did you identify the bus; then I would supply the information.
	But if he didn't enquire about how we identified the bus, I will just answer to his or her specific questions.  And therefore it will appear on the affidavit as if I haven't mentioned it.  But it's just because the statement taker did not enquire about it when we were writing the statement.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Ngubane, before you proceed with your cross-examination would you allow me just on this aspect?  Mr Mkhize, other than the singing which you attempted to describe that this bus belonged to ANC people; you mentioned in your affidavit
"I identified the bus as the right one and told my group that we could attack the bus."
What identification marks did you have that this bus was the correct one?

DJ MKHIZE: Chairperson, firstly it was because the bus stopped at an ANC stronghold area and secondly because the people inside the bus sang songs that I knew to be of the African National Congress.  I did not attack the bus or did not utter the command that the bus should be hit before it stopped.  It stopped and we heard the singing and it indeed stopped at an ANC stronghold area and therefore I decided that the bus should be attacked after I had heard the songs.

ADV MOTATA: I get the impression Mr Mkhize that if we look at Esikhawini, the bus companies were different; that this bus would stop at IFP areas and this bus would stop at ANC areas.  Are we understanding you to say so?

DJ MKHIZE: According to my knowledge it is not company policy that a bus stops at certain stops and not at others.  But it was because of the situation that necessitates that a bus does not stop at certain stops.  How does it stop at an IFP area if there is no IFP member who is going to alight at that bus stop?  Therefore it wouldn't be able to stop there.  It would only stop at certain stops which were strongholds of a certain political organisation.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Ngubane, you may proceed.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Thank you.  I have spoken to the members of the ANC leadership, local members of the ANC leadership and they don't know anything about their people being injured in this incident.  The only incident they know about is the one at Ntokosweni.  Do you agree with me that you could have then attacked innocent people?

DJ MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, I am only explaining an incident that I carried out.  I am explaining how it happened and why it happened.  I also explained that I believed that those people were ANC members for the reasons that I have explained previously.  I have also explained that I don't have any other information relating to how many people died or who had died and which organisation they belonged to.  But all the indications that I have mentioned; to me I assumed or believed that those people had to be attacked.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On a point of clarification: when you say he could have attacked innocent persons, are you by implication saying that they could have been IFP members?  I just need that clarification.

MR NGUBANE: Innocent people who were not affiliated to - well, innocent in the sense that they were not members of the ANC coming from the rally.  It could have been neutral people; it could have been IFP people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In a sense you are saying he might have attacked people who were not ANC because his instructions were to attack anything that was associated with the ANC in those areas.

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.