Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

MR DEHAL: Thank you.
MR McBRIDE
	"Furthermore if we had been walking around that area which because of the peculiarities of apartheid, most people had darker skin, we would have stood out like a sore thumb and hence the reason to use him to effect a decoy.  The reason behind this was that when people left the scene, no one would have any weapons on them and the getaway vehicle would be left in the Pietermaritzburg town, wiped down for fingerprints and people would make their way by public transport to the designated meeting spot which I think was my father's workshop in Durban.  
	During the operation we entered the hospital as planned, after visiting hours and made our way up to the second floor where Gordon was.  My father entered ahead of me to see whether the situation was as we had planned it to be.  After approximately 30 seconds, he came back and told me that we would have to abort the situation because there were a number of civilians around.  On attempting to confirm that this is indeed the case, I was confronted with a policeman who was armed with his weapon pointing at me.  (I would just remove "out" sir)  I was armed with an AKMS assault rifle placed under a coat."

MR DEHAL: Sorry Mr McBride, what coat was that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It was a white coat, we were disguised as if we were doctors.

MR DEHAL: You were disguised as a doctor for easy access to Edendale Hospital?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: To carry out the operation?  Your father, Derrick McBride, how was he disguised?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I cannot remember now, but he could have been...

MR DEHAL: Did he have a dog collar on?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, it was a religious, he was disguised as a priest.

MR DEHAL: Yes, and you had this firearm you say beneath this white coat?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: You had to remove the firearm and take off the safety you say, in order to fire the policeman before he had fired at you?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.  I just want to add that I could not remove the safety to a single shot position as I would have preferred, because the folding butt of the AK does not allow you to do it when it is folded.  You are only able to push it down if the butt is open and hence it was on automatic when I used it.  I fired at him and as, if I recall correctly, subsequent evidence indicated, I actually struck his weapon itself, putting it out of order.

MR DEHAL: And here Mr McBride, when you talk of subsequent evidence, is this evidence at the trial, at your trial in this matter?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: In this particular case, yes, I think that is where I got it from.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.
MR McBRIDE
	"I did not immediately see what had happened to him after that.  I was not aware who the civilians were that my father referred to at that stage as people were sitting on the bench normally used by the police to play cards.  They immediately dived for the floor and moved in such a way that I believed they were police, taking up positions to counter attack or return fire.  I then fired a burst at the group.  It was probably during this burst at the group that is the second burst, that Mlungize Buthelezi was killed and his friends who were with him, waiting for their mother who was a nurse, were injured.  
	As I entered the ward and shouted Gordon's name, I came under fire from a policeman, Johannes Hendrik Visagie.  I returned fire and struck him on the hand.   He retreated to a room within the ward.  I then noticed Gordon Webster in the bed."
	At this stage I must say that my recollection is not very clear and my recollection of the sequence of events are a bit jumbled.  I just want to add an example to illustrate.  In subsequent discussions afterwards I had asked, I remember saying to Gordon in the ward that he should move, he should move, because he was laying on the bed looking at me.  He said to me there is a policeman and I responded by saying which policeman and this is after I had fired at Visagie.  I am not sure as to why I said which policeman, when I knew there was a policeman firing at me, so my recollection of events in the ward at that stage, are quite jumbled.  I am not sure if it is of any significance, I am just saying that I cannot remember clearly.  I just assimilated events as things happened.

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, as to Mr Visagie, you did not know his name at the time when you fired, you got to know this name during the course of your trial?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: You then say you apparently also fired two more shots at Visagie after he had fired at you through the door from the room?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, this is another incident, I don't recall this clearly.   If I did, I wouldn't have any problem with it, he is a policeman, he is keeping my comrade in captivity, I would shoot at him, there is no problem with that.  I just don't recall it clearly.

MR DEHAL: This room that you talk about, is the room adjacent the passage, somewhere near the ward in which Mr Gordon Webster was?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, if I am facing the bed where Gordon was laying, from the door, this room which was referred to as a slush room, would be on the left side of me from where I was standing.  Gordon would have been on the right side of the ward if I was facing down, facing the slush room, facing towards Gordon.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he the only patient in the ward or was it a public ward?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No Mr Chairperson, there were other people in the ward also.

JUDGE PILLAY: Other patients?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct, and nurses also.

MR DEHAL: It was a general ward, is it?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It was a - I forget the name for it, but seriously injured people.

MR DEHAL: ICU?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: And the slush room that you talk about, was reference made to the slush room in the trial and is this how you familiarised yourself with it?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Yes, continue Mr McBride.
MR McBRIDE
	"Anyway Gordon Webster was wheeled out of the hospital on a laundry trolley and during the wheeling of him out, he had possession of the AK.  At some stage I gave him the AK to enable me to push him easily.  It is believed that he may have fired, but I cannot remember very clearly at this stage what took place in the exit from the hospital.  However, we managed to get him out of the hospital, whilst a crowd of people had gathered and were cheering us on."
	 I seem to remember at this stage that the crowd of people on the second floor, were holding back the policeman, I saw him if I can remember at the back of the crowd and urging him not to engage in combat with us.
"Gordon was successfully loaded onto the getaway car and we made off towards town, that is Pietermaritzburg.  On arrival we found that the second car was not at the agreed spot.  We then proceeded to Wentworth without changing cars.  At Wentworth we contacted a relative of Gordon's family."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed Mr McBride, you said that there was a hole dug for weapons to be buried.  What happened with the weapons once he got into the car?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: We continued with them all the way through.  Apparently for as yet unknown reasons, Khumalo did not prepare the hole and he had instructed Greta Apelgren to leave the spot.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you go to that spot, but there was nothing there?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: There was nobody there, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you just carried on?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Yes, please continue?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: The person's name I think is Pam Cele.

MR DEHAL: Not Ann Cele?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No, I think it is Pam.

MR DEHAL: Shall we delete Ann and write Pam instead?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes sir.