Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry by that you mean Mr Ngubane do you mean physically brought?

MR NGUBANE: Not necessarily Mr Chairman. In which ever way they were brought. Now there is a gentleman by the, oh well did you participate in the attack at Ngama's shebeen at any stage?

MR HLONGWANE: Do you mean Paul's shebeen? Yes I was involved.

MR NGUBANE: Yes. Who was with you when that attack took place?

MR HLONGWANE: It was myself and Romeo.

MR NGUBANE: There is a gentleman by the name of Mataba who was injured on his mouth there and he instruct me that he was a public speaker and a marketing person and he is seriously handicapped now. He cannot undertake that. Do you have a special word for him?

MR HLONGWANE: Was he shot on the same day that Ntanda was also attacked?

MR NGUBANE: Well when Ngama's shebeen was attacked.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson I do not like intervening and disturbing Mr Ngubane. With respect I think that the witness's answers to his question about Ngama's shebeen specifically relates to the time when the 4 youths were killed and I think we need to establish whether or not this attack that Mr Ngubane is referring to is another attack or whether it is at the same time so that the witness can get an idea of how to answer the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ngubane are you referring to the same time, the same attack that Mr Mbambo referred to in his evidence when those 4 people were killed?

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman I believe it was a separate incident. But be that as it may all that I want is whether he wants to apologize to that person or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes perhaps you can ask Mr Hlongwane how many times did you attack at Ngema's shebeen?

MR HLONGWANE: It was once when Romeo and myself attacked when we attacked these 4 youths.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only attack? You did not have any other attacks?

MR HLONGWANE: It is the only one that I was ever involved in.

MR NGUBANE: To whoever was injured there do you have an apology for whoever was injured there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry I have been told that some of the people at the back of the hall cannot hear you. Could you just speak a little bit louder please Mr Hlongwane?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngubane the testimony before us is that nobody survived that attack. That Ndunda and the 3 other youths were killed. So I am a little confused by the question that you are putting to Mr Hlongwane because I do not have any evidence that anyone survived that attack.

MR NGUBANE: I will not pursue that question. Now do you know Kula School at eSikaweni, Kula a school called Kula?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do know the school.

MR NGUBANE: After your attack of Seranani Hall did you attack the houses that were adjacent to Kula School? You remember you told us about the incident at Hlanganani when you killed people who were in the car and set them on fire? After that incident did you proceed to attack houses that were next to Kula School?

MR HLONGWANE: No.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Now Mr Hlongwane it appears to me that you started these evil acts when you were very young, at 16 years of age?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you have only passed standard 6 that is right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And from then onwards were you involved in any other training other than this semi-military training and killing people?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Well I am not sure whether you understood my question. Were you given any other decent training other than this semi-military training and this training of killing people after you age of 16?

CHAIRPERSON: What Ngubane wants to know from you. Besides being trained at Koeberg and getting this police training and training that you have referred to already relating to the use of firearms, breaking in, etc, have you had any other training? Have you had any training for a civilian job, let us put it that way?

MR HLONGWANE: No.

MR NGUBANE: You mentioned that at some stage you had targetted Beki Nthuli's house?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: But instead you attacked house number 123, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What caused you to attack house number 123?

MR HLONGWANE: I am not originally from eSikaweni, I thought that I knew Mr Nthuli's house but that was apparently not the case. So when I identified the house, Mr Nthuli's house to the Izinkabi I pointed at 123 and not 125. So that is how the house number 123 was attacked. But we had intended to attack Mr Nthuli's home.

MR NGUBANE: Okay did you make that mistake once or did you make it twice or more than twice of attacking house number 123?

MR HLONGWANE: I think maybe it happened twice or on three occasions that I made a mistake of this nature.

MR NGUBANE: So the instructions that I have that in fact this house was attacked twice you would not be able to dispute that?

MR HLONGWANE: I would not dispute it.

MR NGUBANE: Now at paragraph 105 of your affidavit you say that there was a stage when you were called the Self Protection Unit and on the final day of your training you were addressed by Mr C J Mutetuwa who stressed again that you should stop all the people from going to vote and to eliminate the ANC. Was this immediately prior to the elections in 1994?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Can you elaborate a bit here, how were you going to stop these people from voting?

MR HLONGWANE: The buses and voting stations would be attacked. Nobody would leave the township to go to vote. That is one way I can explain it.

MR NGUBANE: Yes if you say the buses were going to be stopped where were those buses going to come from? Were there any specific areas that were targetted?

MR HLONGWANE: An area of KwaZulu Natal had supplied people who were going to be responsible for seeing to it that the voting process would not take place. They will stop the people from voting.

MR NGUBANE: I see Mr Mtetwa told you that you should stop the people from going to vote. Was he the only one who told you that or had you received prior instructions to do that?

MR HLONGWANE: He is not the only one because Jerry had also mentioned this and Jerry was feared in this province.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about Jerry Medunda?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes Jerry Medunda.

MR NGUBANE: Was there a specific programme that was designed specifically for you to stop the people from going to the elections?

MR HLONGWANE: I will say that there was because we had already been told on how we were going to conduct our operation, how we would attack the people. That is the programme that I knew of.

MR NGUBANE: You personally were you assigned to attack a specific voting area and if so which area were you assigned to?

MR HLONGWANE: I think that I would actually go to a place or attack a place where I would be at the time of voting.

MR NGUBANE: And what eventually happened to that plan of yours of attacking areas where people were going to vote?

MR HLONGWANE: All weapons were confiscated from Umpholozi and I also got arrested so the attack was never carried out.

MR NGUBANE: Who took the firearms?

MR HLONGWANE: They were confiscated by the then Captain Scotts together with Mr Howard Vany. Scotts was with Major Aswagen.

MR NGUBANE: Did you receive any specific instruction from the IFP leadership not to attack any more or it was just this arrest of yours that stopped the attack?

MR HLONGWANE: It was because of my arrest. I did not receive any further instructions.

MR NGUBANE: Now at paragraph 94 you mentioned that when you were outside KwaZulu Natal at Ermelo you used to receive cash payment of R800 a month to buy groceries and to look after youself, is it correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes it is as written here.

MR NGUBANE: And when you came back to KwaZulu Natal how did you manage to sustain yourself, how did you, did you get any money at the end of the month?