Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-15

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The community of where we were staying itself was using something which, I don't know how I can explain it, the people were knowing that, that is in every village here in Venda, many people here in Venda during those days believed that witchcraft is something which was happening and they were able to point at a person, just like myself, they could claim that I was a witch and there were strange deaths during those days.

MR NDOU: So the list was drawn up by yourself?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes it was drawn up by me.

ADV DE JAGER: Let's go a bit slower.  A person would put up his hand, and he would nominate somebody.  He would say I want this name to be put on the list.  Is that right?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: No it wasn't just a matter of simply pointing at a person to be included in the list, there were things which resulted in a person being named.

ADV DE JAGER: Which names, did you want on the list, did you discus it and say, "please give me the names of all the witches and I'll write them down."

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: No, what happened on that day was that myself and those people who were with me at the meeting, we were not going to discuss the killing of people, we were going to discuss how to make the government fall only.  Now because they realised that the method they can use here in Venda, because it's in the villages, the only method which could be used was to burn the witches with the main aim of making the government to fall or to make the area to be ungovernable and it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would that happen if you dealt with the witches?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I didn't hear your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I say you wanted the government to fall.  Then you seem to suggest that the way to do that was to deal in some way with people whom you thought were witches.  What did the witches have to do with the government?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: All those things came when the society decided to demonstrate and to fight with the government and it was found that youth who were acting during that time were mysteriously dying, so it resulted in witches being killed, since they were suspected.  But the aim was not necessarily to burn the people but to fight the government but because of all these things which were happening, then the situation dictates that because people were dying mysteriously, we found ourselves killing the witches.

CHAIRPERSON: How was that going to help your political objectives?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It helped because if it was heard that at Itsane people were burnt today, when the police ran to Itsane, tomorrow it will happen at Njerere and as they run to Njerere, they will find that maybe elsewhere at Hamashamba another person is being burnt.  Then all those things were making the government to have problems.

MR NDOU: Why couldn't you deal with the government without having to deal with witches?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: That's because the rulers, or the members of the government who were in place found that they were involved in evil things, for example ritual murders.  We realised that if a person is being killed according to our belief for a ritual murder, the parts will be taken to the witchdoctors so that the parts will be mixed with medicine so that the people will get richness and power.  Such things fall under witchcraft.  When we left the playground we went to Mr Maphaha's place.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm still trying to find out how the witches were connected to government.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I tried to explain that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't been very successful.  You see, listen to me very carefully.  In order to be granted amnesty, you must comply with two basic requirements.  You must tell us everything that we need to know about that incident for which you require amnesty.  That is normally known as full disclosure.
    The second one and equally important, in fact in the Act I think it comes first, for what political motive or advantage did you commit that act for which you seek amnesty?  Do you understand?  Are there any questions about that, that you don't understand?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: No questions that I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you come to tell us that together with the youth, the people in the area mostly wanted to overthrow the government.  Did I understand you correctly?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes you did.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you go on and say, during discussions it came to be that it was decided that the witches, or people whom you thought were witches, have to be dealt with in order to overthrow the government.  Am I correct in understanding it all?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What we need to know is why deal with witches in order to overthrow the government?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It is because, I tried to explain that here in Venda it's in the villages, and in the villages it is different from Soweto or Pretoria, Bloemfontein or elsewhere.  Where when people want the government to fall, they can maybe engage on boycotts of rents and many other things.  But here on that day, as we were still looking at what we can do to make this government fall, people who were looking at this matter realised that the government was crying about the actions which were unacceptable, for example ritual murders.  We know that the parts of persons killed during ritual murders would be taken to a witchdoctor who would mix them with medicine, making another medicine.  And our knowledge which we were trying to reach of politics is, that by starting to burn witches would threaten people who were in power, or who were ruling, because they were aware that they had us in an iron hand of ritual murder, of shooting and things like this.

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You explained that it was at this gathering that you decided that witches would be the target.  Now the people who gathered there, what did they understand to be the objective to be achieved, by burning these witches?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The main objective which the people there realised was that because the members of the society were dying mysteriously, then they realised that if we burned the witches, the society will maybe be free from witchcraft and it realised that by burning the witches there will be turmoil in the villages or country and it will be ungovernable because people were thirsty that Venda must be reincorporated into South Africa.

MR NDOU: Did they make any connection with the witches and the ruling people, the government?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes because during those times there were - because if a person is killed, the parts which are removed from that person will be taken to the witchdoctor who would mix it with a medicine, which practice is referred to as witchcraft.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes but what I want to understand from you, could you explain, who would then use the medicine that the witches have mixed?  Would it be people connected with the government or would it be people connected with the ANC, or who would the people be who would benefit from the witchcraft?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The community was going to benefit during that time.

MR NDOU: He didn't seem to understand the question.
What the Committee Member wants to know from you is as to who would benefit from this situation.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Who would benefit was the ANC organisation because it was against the government during that time, because the people were also opposing it, supporting for example ANC so that they wanted to take over.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go and kill all the people who had donkeys then instead of the witches?  If somebody had to be killed to overthrow the government, why choose the witches?