Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: No it's not so.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you go to the taxi rank at all?  Why didn't you just go to his home, it was just around the corner?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: At the taxi rank the main thing that we were looking for was the driver of the Combi who was, who had transported Nzimeni's group, so that he should tell us exactly where did he drop them off.  Then we could take it off, then to try and go and find them wherever he dropped them.

JUDGE WILSON: You didn't think it worthwhile going to his home first?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: It would be easy but it's just that the thought came that we should start at the rank first.

JUDGE WILSON: Was that the real reason for going to the rank or were you trying to stir up trouble for him? You didn't just talk to one taxi driver did you, you talked to them all?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Whilst we were talking to this taxi driver for this Combi, the other taxi drivers came closer.  We could not chase them away because it was also affecting them as well.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: After Charles was assaulted he was taken to the police station, was he?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you one of those who told the police that you had assaulted him?
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PATRICK UMKONTWANA: /...
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PATRICK UMKONTWANA: No I'm not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take him to the police station?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: No I never did.

CHAIRPERSON: So Charles was badly assaulted, he was taken to
the police station.  What was the purpose of that?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: The decision of the meeting held that day or any of these members that would be found would be taken to the police station.  So we were caring out that decision.

CHAIRPERSON: So the decision was that they should be beaten up first before they were taken to the police station?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: No that was not the decision.

ADV DE JAGER: Was Charles beaten up in order to discipline him?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I don't know why did the comrades beat him up, whether to discipline him or not, I'm not sure.

JUDGE WILSON: They meant to kill him didn't they, they poured petrol on him? Is that not so?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes it is so, they did pour petrol over him.

ADV DE JAGER: At the trial was it disclosed to the Judge that they wanted to discipline him or that they, what the intention was or the purpose of beating him or killing the other one?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I don't remember clearly, but I don't think we did say that he was being disciplined or not.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gcinisizwe Umkunjana, on that day at the meeting at Mary Agnes' house, where a resolution was taken that Nzimeni and his people must be located, found and taken to the police station, there was a delegation which was appointed, were you part of that delegation?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes I was.
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<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Chairperson.  Patrick, was there, or there was connection between Charles and Nzimeni, isn't it?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes it is so.

<UNKNOWN>: And this Nzimeni is the one that you allege in your statement that he was in a way, if I summarise it, hampering and terrorising your activities and the populace in Kuma at large, isn't it so?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: It is so.

<UNKNOWN>: Naturally as the political organisation your agenda will be the one of politics.  Would you say now after that this background given about Nzimeni, that his conduct was in opposite, it was in hinderance of your organisation's political activity?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes it is so.

<UNKNOWN>: Patrick I want you to respond to this one, to the Committee.  Say you are granted the opportunity of meeting the mother of the deceased and have a personal talk with her in regard to what happened to her son, what will you say to her?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: To the mother of the deceased I would ask for forgiveness, because I was not successful in saving his, her son's life.  I tried but I couldn't get it right.

JUDGE WILSON: Why didn't you do that at the time?
(TAPE 2 DAY 3 ENDS)
(TAPE 3 DAY 3 STARTS)

<UNKNOWN>: Would you say the same will apply as well to Charles Mhlambiso.

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I'll do the same thing.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
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CHAIRPERSON: This may be a convenient stage to adjourn.  We will resume at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Chairperson, the next applicant is Popane Musiwa Mishak. Popane Musiwa Mishak Chairperson will give his evidence in Tswana and Sotho.  Can he please be sworn in?

POPANE MUSIWA MISHAK: (sworn states)

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson, also in this instance, for record purposes the statements, motivations thereon, are similar to those of the first two applicants.  I therefore will not take the applicant to repeat what has already been said here.  Mr Popane, what leadership positions did you occupy in the Youth Congress of the ANC in Kuma during the period of '90, 1990?

MR POPANE: As from 1990, I was an additional member of South African Youth Congress.  Then again I became an additional member in the African National Congress Youth League.

<UNKNOWN>: You know already that the acts that you are now asking this Committee to grant you amnesty on, it is the one of murder of a certain Mr Mzimeni and the assault on Charles Mhlambiso.  I am going to start with this act of attempted murder on Charles Mhlambiso.  Did you as Mishek Misowa Popane, assault Charles Mhlambiso on the 31st of October 1990?

MR POPANE: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you explain to this Committee, how and with what did you assault Charles Mhlambiso?

MR POPANE: As my co-accused have already explained, we were from Mary Agnes' house going to the taxi rank looking
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for the taxi driver, the Combi which transported the vigilante gang. We arrived and talked to the driver who transported these people, then he told us it was not him, it was somebody else.  When we were still there we saw Charles being chased by other comrades.  I rushed to the scene.  When I arrived there, I took the stone and threw at him just in the furrow where he was thrown by Umkontwani, then I hit him with a stone.

<UNKNOWN>: How many stones did you use to hit Charles Mhlambiso?

MR POPANE: I used only one stone.

<UNKNOWN>: Let's move to the murder of Mr Mzimeni. Can you explain to the Committee the part that you played in the killing of this Mzimeni?