Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of reconciliation I would personally seek your own personal opinions, getting away from all those layers of commands and what not.  Perhaps I am putting the same question that was put by Joyce here, that where you have Mbokoto destabilising, ANC destabilising and then you have those two chiefs that you relied on and I suspect that they too were not in favour of independence, just how did you see stabilisation coming into place in Kwandebele at that time or even if it might not be specifically at that time I would say in future.
MR ?: Again I think what they testified was what Capt Hechter said - sorry that I am again repeating but I think it is going to be easier to clarify matters - he testified initially the Mbokoto was there to work towards independence. That as a cultural group to work under the population to turn their heads but then with Piet Ntuli as a head, as Brig Cronje said, as the head of the snake, they started working for their own reasons, for their own objectives.  So at the time it was necessary, and again to stabilise the area and maybe we don't know again what the whole tactics of the politicians at the time was because they can't testify about that, that would be hearsay or what they think, if they at that stage could eliminate Mbokoto who was actually working against it, remember now it was a political problem for the whole government.  They couldn't arrest Ntuli.  If they arrested Piet Ntuli, all the members of the Mbokoto what would the cabinet of the Kwandebele MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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government, who were supposed to support the National Party government and independence, what would they say at that stage.  So the only option left was to eliminate Piet Ntuli because they knew that Piet Ntuli was - well there was a possibility that maybe the ANC was going to claim because all the population, and they testified to that again in front of the amnesty committee, was against Piet Ntuli at the time.  So with Piet Ntuli out of it the Mbokoto couldn't have worked - well for the purposes of Piet Ntuli and maybe that is when - and they are speculating about it - when Hertzog Lerm came in he was supposed to take control of Mbokoto and stabilise the area with the Mbokoto.  Now whether that happened or not they can't testify about that specifically.  They were operators of the security branch of the Northern Transvaal at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what I want to say is that I think we are all saying that all things went haywire during that time and almost everybody you know either lost control or what.  But now I am saying having  experienced that kind of a thing by way of talking reconciliation.  How would you see stability and peace having to be brought in a situation that was one raped of that peace and stability?
MR ?: If I understand you correctly it is for purposes of this now.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely.  I mean here ...
MR ?: Now today.

CHAIRPERSON: Now today.
MR ?: Not then.  Now.  How they feel about it today.

CHAIRPERSON: For your information this is what we have been getting even from the people who were testifying before.   How do we see our way forward by way of reconciliation.
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MR ?: Okay, I can hand it maybe to Capt Hechter first and say how he sees this - are you talking - he doesn't quite understand the question he says to me but I can hand to him to say that what he feels about the whole process of the Truth Commission.  Is that basically what you are saying?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR ?: And we have given that evidence again in front of the amnesty committee when we started an opening statement was read on the way we feel about the reconciliation.  Maybe I must give him the statement again about the reconciliation that we have drafted in our amnesty application and he can read it to you and we can take it from there.

JACQUES HECHTER: At that stage I believed in what I was doing in the interests of the Republic of South Africa, its people, my religious service and my religious convictions.  Today I am uncertain about where I stand how I ended up in this position that I am currently finding myself in.  It is unfortunate and I am sorry about the loss of relatives of the victims who suffered back then and I hope that this will lead to a greater understanding, reconciliation and also the reconciliation of all the people of South Africa.  It is, however, not for me to decide what is right or wrong but as a fully committed citizen of the new South Africa I am committed to the truth of the past surfacing and that is on the side of the government of the day and also the freedom fighters, we have to talk about what happened in the past, how it happened and why it happened to try and prevent a possibility of this recurring in the future.

CHAIRPERSON: It goes next to what we would want to understand but perhaps in view of time constraints I would not pursue the question.
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MR MALAN: Chairperson since I had the opportunity of talking to them beforehand to arrange the process and procedure here I would just like also the opportunity to thank them for having come here.  It is still a long way for the brigadier and his colleagues but we appreciate the time that you have taken off to share with us what happened here.

BRIG CRONJE: We thank you Mr Chairperson.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.