Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

MR BOOYENS: The video that was shown to the witness, it is something that I think in light of the fact that the full Committee isn't here, it seems to me that that will have to be handed in as an exhibit.  I don't think we have had any physical exhibits.  I can never remember whether the video tapes get documentary names, but may we call that Exhibit 1.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit 1, I think, yes.

MR BOOYENS: That concludes my cross-examination of Mr Mbane, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, Mr Peter Williams, to avoid confusion.

MR P WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Sorry, Mr Williams, sorry, if I may intervene at this stage, I have certain information that has been made available to me which I think is important that it is raised at this stage in order to circumvent any unnecessary delay regarding cross-examination later.  Of course Mr Booyens I'm sure will reserve his right to re-examine once this evidence has been led but I just think in order to curtail proceedings, if necessary, it's important that I lead that evidence now.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.   Are you leading evidence now or are you asking questions?

MS PATEL: Sorry I'm asking questions.  Mr
Mbane are you ready?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I'm ready ma'am.

MS PATEL: Mr Mbane when you testified yesterday in response to a question from Advocate Booyens you stated that at no stage did you share accommodation with Mr Khoisan from the investigative unit is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes that's correct ma'am.

MS PATEL: Are you certain that at the last time when you came for the hearing that even though it was in a separate room Mr Khoisan had not booked into the same hotel as you did at the same time?

JIMMY MBANE: He was staying in his room and I was staying in my separate room.

MS PATEL: Do you confirm the same arrangement for your trip now?

JIMMY MBANE: That's still the same.

MS PATEL: Did you and Mr Khoisan during your stay at the hotel discuss this matter?

JIMMY MBANE: We didn't discuss anything about this matter.

MS PATEL: What about the statement that was handed in subsequently, when was that taken, the last statement that was handed in by yourself, when was that taken?

JIMMY MBANE: It was on the 17th November 1997.

MS PATEL: Was that during your stay here the last time?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, ma'am.

MS PATEL: So it's not strictly correct that you never discussed the matter at all with Mr Khoisan?

JIMMY MBANE: When I was making the statement there was a Xhosa interpreter, there were three of us, a Xhosa interpreter, I can't remember the name but he was also in the house.

MS PATEL: What is contained in by the affidavit that was handed in by yourself is that your own version of what had occurred?

JIMMY MBANE: That's only the occurring that took place at the time.

MS PATEL: The question is, Mr Mbane, is are those your words that have been put into the statement, into the affidavit, rather?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, ma'am that's correct, everything that is in that statement it's exactly my words.

MS PATEL: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
	Mr Chairman, I am in indebted to my learned colleague, I wasn't aware of this development, I don't usually break my promises to people, but I think in light of what developed here there are certain things I have to, subject to this Commission's - speak my last piece.
	Mr Mbane, yesterday when I asked about you staying with 
Mr Khoisan in the same hotel you first tried to evade the question eventually ended up saying that you never stayed in the hotel with him.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, sir.

MR BOOYENS: So you lied to the Commission.

JIMMY MBANE: Even now I'm not staying with him, I have my own room, his got his own room.  We are not staying together.

MR BOOYENS: Please, if you stay at the same hotel, that doesn't mean you have to stay in the same room. You deliberately tried to mislead the Commission, is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Even now I'm saying he has got his own room.  I'm not staying with him in the same room.  He's got his own separate room and I've got mine.

MR BOOYENS: Well why didn't you say, if that's the way you understood the question that's by the way not the way the questions were asked.  Why didn't you say that, no we are staying at the same hotel but not in the same room, Why didn't you say that?  Why did you try to mislead us as if you had no contact with the man whatsoever as far as accommodation is concerned?

JIMMY MBANE: What you asked me yesterday was that you wanted to know if I was staying with him, but I told you that I'm not staying with him.  You asked me if I was staying with him you didn't say anything about a hotel.

MR BOOYENS: We certainly referred to a hotel and when you wouldn't budge on a hotel, I went so far to say that would you stay with him at any other accommodation and you also denied that, that's what you evidence was please do not build another lie on top of your previous lies.  Do you remember that now?

JIMMY MBANE: I'm telling you that even now, I'm not staying with him and I'm not lying and I was not lying yesterday.  If you stay with a person it means that you are sharing the same room.  But I'm not staying with him.

MR BOOYENS: I presume that's a question.

UNKNOWN: Just to clear this Mr Mbane, I have a note I made when you were cross-examined that you said -  "I'm not staying in a hotel with Mr Khoisan since my arrival" -  would I have taken the right note from your testimony?

JIMMY MBANE: Maybe I made a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: My notes also is that you said that you were not staying in a hotel with him and that you never did before and you also said that he normally took you to your place, you seemed to imply he merely gave you a lift to where you were staying.  Is that what you did tell us yesterday?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, Sir.  I apologise for that.

MR BOOYENS: Perhaps you can just explain one thing further Mr Mbane, you tried to hide the fact - why?

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't want the people to know where I stay.  That is why I was hiding it.

MR BOOYENS: I never asked you the address, in fact -  and I don't even have to look at my notes to confirm, I've got a clear recollection that you started that story about not wanting to give the address and I said to you I'm not asking your address I'm asking you whether the man is staying with you in an hotel, there must be hundreds of them in Cape Town. So, don't, let's try another answer, come, give it another go.

JIMMY MBANE: I don't get your question clearly.

MR BOOYENS: Well let's just repeat it for you. Why did you try to hide the fact that you and Mr Khoisan were staying at the same hotel.   That is the question that I asked, please answer it.

JIMMY MBANE: I don't have a reason for that.

MR BOOYENS: There must be a reason.

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know that.  If you say there is a reason it means you know the reason because I'm saying I don't have a reason.

MR BOOYENS: You told the lie I didn't.  Why?

JIMMY MBANE: The fact that I didn't tell you where I stay, I don't have a reason for that, that's what I'm telling you.

MR BOOYENS: I never asked where you stayed I asked you with whom you stayed.  Why didn't you want to tell us, why did you try to mislead us about that?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't have a reason.

MR BOOYENS: No, there must be a reason, but you're not prepared to tell us the reason, isn't it? One does not lie deliberately under oath, at least most honourable people I know don't lie deliberately under oath.  If they lie there's a reason for it.  Or do you just lie under oath for no reason?

JIMMY MBANE: All I'm saying is this, I don't have a reason, I don't have a reason.

MR BOOYENS: Did somebody suggest to you that you should deny staying with Mr...

JIMMY MBANE: No-one, it's something that just came to my mind.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Mbane, it's been a pleasure cross-examining you.