Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-24

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman during my service at Murder and Robbery I was a Detective at Murder and 
Robbery, I had knowledge of the activities of the Security Branch and for the reasons of ...(indistinct), but I 
had not undergone any security training. 	In my own individual manner I knew that for instance the 
PAC or any of the liberation movements that some of the people said that, this is the information made 
available to me, that were they not able to arm themselves they would have had to do an armed robbery to 
gain funding sometimes for their organisations. 
	At that time I had very little knowledge of what an activist was.  Were you a member of the 
ANC/PAC or a communist organisation, you were considered to have been a terrorist and even if you were 
only positively inclined towards these movements, you would have been in my eyes, a terrorist.
	If any of these persons were then engaged in an armed robbery, I would have been interested in 
their action.  I can refer for instance to the Silverton bank robbery.  I cannot remember the year in which 
that occurred, but there were four or five terrorists who were killed and a number of members - civilians.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 68

UNKNOWN: The main purpose of liberation movements was to free the country from suppression and in the 
process my view was that they took part in armed robbery and that innocent persons were killed.  I then 
saw the combatting of the liberation movements as part of my work at Murder and Robbery.  
	Captain Hechter and myself have known each other for a long period of time, we were in a 
relationship of trust towards each other. He would have for instance phoned me in a late afternoon to ask 
me whether I was available to assist him, I would have agreed and would have accompanied them. It was 
not always necessary for me to go to my immediate Commanding Officer to receive his agreement for this 
action, I saw this as part of my normal duties.  I cooperated with the Security Branch and worked with 
them as necessary.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Mentz, under whose command would you have acted in such a case?

UNKNOWN: According to me under Captain Hechter who was at that time a Lieutenant, under his 
direct command and then eventually under Brigadier Jack Cronje on those occasions where he was at his 
office.  He did not always work, he might have been on leave, but I would have seen it as having been 
under the District Commissioner of the District Northern Transvaal and of course eventually under Police 
Head Office.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Mentz, it is important that we present this testimony because your period 
differs somewhat from that of the other applicants, you were involved in Vlakplaas during the latter period 
when Colonel de Kock was also involved.  There were many reports in the newspapers with regard to 
Colonel de Kock's actions during that time.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 69

UNKNOWN: Colonel de Kock has been charged with regard to certain of these actions and he has been found 
guilty in a criminal court with regard to certain of these acts.	While serving at Vlakplaas Captain 
Mentz, were you aware of any criminal activities at Vlakplaas?  I am not talking about your operations, I 
am talking about other aspects.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I had some suspicions but Eugene de Kock had certain persons whom he 
trusted and what they might have done, we other normal police officers who were the foot soldiers there, 
would not have necessarily known.  I had suspected that there were irregularities but during the last year 
and a half while serving under Eugene de Kock, we seldom spoke to each other, we greeted each other 
when necessary and that was the extent of our relationship.
	General Engelbrecht also transferred me to another branch of the Unit, since I couldn't get along 
with De Kock.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Mentz, did you ask for a transfer to Vlakplaas on your own?  How 
were you transferred to Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, with Almond Nofomela's arrest I came into contact with Eugene de Kock, 
they approached me and asked me whether I wanted to come and work with them and this is how it works 
in the police, you can't simply be drafted, so I made an application and my Commanding Officer, General 
Britz then denied this application.	At a later time I made a second application which was then orally 
refused, but I asked him and he passed it on and I was then transferred.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you ever discuss this with Brigadier  Cronje?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I did.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 69

ADV DU PLESSIS: What was his attitude Captain Mentz?

UNKNOWN: At that time he attempted do dissuade me from going to Vlakplaas.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What was his reasons for this, what did he say?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember his direct words, but he basically said that there would 
not have been a future for me at the Unit at Vlakplaas.  General Suiker Britz, now General Suiker Britz, 
then Commanding Officer at Murder and Robbery also strongly attempted to dissuade me from joining 
Vlakplaas.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, it is necessary for me to lead this evidence because this specific 
witness and the 
incidents he applies for, fall a little bit outside the
ambit of the evidence that was presented in respect of all four the other applicants.  Just to clarify the fact 
that I am leading some of this evidence it was important to do that.  
	Mr Chairman, this specific incident is an incident in respect of which I intend to lead some further 
evidence more broadly than what is contained in this application.  I do not foresee that we are going to 
finalise this application this afternoon and I would prefer, and I would request the Committee to give me 
the opportunity to deal with this tomorrow after having viewed the video's that we want to show to the 
Committee.  If the Committee will allow me to.

HASSAN MALL: ;	Is the position that those video's will be available to be screened at 9 o'clock?

ADV DU PLESSIS: ;	Yes, Mr Chairman, we have made arrangements with the SABC, they will 
assist us with that very graciously and we would like to extend out thanks to 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 70

UNKNOWN: them.  They will assist us and we will be able to do that.  We will also endeavour to go through the video's 
tonight and I will try to pinpoint the exact, specific aspects that we want to show to the Committee so as not 
to waste unnecessary time in that regard.

HASSAN MALL: Very well, you may resume the leading of the more specific evidence of this witness 
tomorrow morning, after we have had an opportunity of viewing those video's which you want to show us.
	We will then adjourn now and formally constitute ourselves, the Committee, at 9 o'clock 
tomorrow morning.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Sure. Mr Currin, you will be available at nine o'clock tomorrow morning?

MR CURRIN: I will be available Sir.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, that is convenient is it?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ;	It is convenient Mr Chairman, thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  We will adjourn.