Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I told this Committee that I do not remember Ngo's presence while we detained people or arrested people.  May I was not present on that day.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo was actually registered as a policeman.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I mentioned I did not know Ngo for a long time, that he was a policeman I just heard.  I know the people I worked with.  I did not know his background.

ADV MEMANI: Why is it so that you did not know that Ngo was a policeman when he worked with you at the same police station?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I told you that it was a very big office and I was in the same office but far from them.  The field workers were on that side and I was on the other side, we did not mix.  What they did was unknown to us.

ADV MEMANI: How many policemen were there, security branch?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I would not tell, they were many but I cannot give the number.

ADV MEMANI: About 15?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: In all we would be between 60 and 70 but I do not know the exact figure.

ADV MEMANI: But how many black security branch members were there at that stage who reported at Fountain every morning?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: We were not 30 in number, I think we were about 30 if not 30 something.

ADV MEMANI: Now, did you not see Ngo at parades in the mornings?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not remember seeing Ngo, I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: You see, according to documents furnished to us by our legal representatives, Ngo was registered at least as from March 1986, as a policeman.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: The questions that you are asking me do not need my attention, they need their handlers because as black during those days we did not know what was happening up there.  Even among ourselves we did not open up for each other.  I did not know his history, whether he was registered or not because I was never given such a report.

ADV MEMANI: You see, what I'm saying is whether or not black were not treated well, they did not know much, you should have seen him at parade at least.  Didn't you see him at parade?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not remember seeing Ngo.  You're asking me something that happened a long time ago, I do not remember seeing Ngo.

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether he was transferred to another station at any stage or whether he left Bloemfontein at any stage?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I did not know his movements.  We were not told such things.  I only concentrated on my duty.  The transfers and all those things were done by officers up there where we did not have part.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike is not on.

ADV MEMANI: It is a convenient time M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear the speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we endeavour to start before 2 o'clock or should we take - I'm getting support from behind me.  It's ten past now, shall we endeavour to start at a quarter to two if we can.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Right Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Mbanjani, for how long did you see Ngo at Fountain?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: Now, for how long did you know him as an informer?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: ...[no English translation]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Brink?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: As I mentioned, I do not have Ngo's history.  As I have mentioned I do not know a lot about Ngo, I only saw him, how did I see him, I do not know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The period over which you saw which you're not sure of, is it a question of years or months?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I am unable to answer because he never spent a lot of time where I saw him.

ADV MEMANI: Now, informers were paid by Fountain directly isn't it, and not by head office?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: According to my knowledge - can I please get another headset, this is giving me troubles?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do not cover the little glass because you stop the frequency.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: We received money at Fountain for the informers.

ADV MEMANI: And that was recorded in a file?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Everyone had his file, that's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And these payments through the administration office?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And if you're working in administration you would have been aware of approximately the time Ngo was being paid as an informer.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: No.  That kind of work was not done in our division, it had it's own special unit of informers.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Memani, I wanted to do this before we adjourn.  The witness, when he testified, when he was asked what sort of work he was doing, the witness in his own language - my recollection is, that he kept on saying he worked in the office.  Now, the interpretation that kept on coming through was that: "I did administrative work".  Now I'm not sure whether it's necessarily administrative work and I'm just saying this because it may very well be unfair to the witness.  I'm not saying you are taxing him now, I just wanted to point it out because he just kept on saying: "I worked in the office" and it was interpreted to us as saying: "I did administrative work".

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, my recollection is that in chief it was properly interpreted as: "administrative work" and then later in cross-examination when he got problems with the fact that his work was not really administrative he then said of his work but I will try and clear that up with the stenographers and I'll get back to you on the correct interpretation.  Thanks Mr Chairman.
	Now Mr Mbanjani, do you recall the day when you arrested Ngo at O.K. in Bloemfontein?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I have never arrested Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: Do you recall the day when you took him to Fountain and there called Erasmus and showed him Ngo?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: Don't you recall that you are the person who introduced Ngo to Erasmus?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so at all.

ADV MEMANI: Now there was another youngster who used to be with Ngo who was Oliphant whom you were looking for as well, do you remember that?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: My instruction are that you were looking for Oliphant and Ngo and you picked Ngo up at O.K. and on that day he was beaten up by yourself and Erasmus and he was then recruited as an informer.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so, I've never worked under Erasmus.

ADV MEMANI: It is not the proposition that you worked under Erasmus, what is being put to you is that you introduced Ngo to Erasmus.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Don't you recall that thereafter Erasmus suggested that before he can use him as an informer you and Erasmus must speak to Captain Horn?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so, I've never spoken to Erasmus about Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: And Horn approved the appointment of Ngo as an informer in the office.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so, I do not know Ngo's issue.  I do not know his - I do not even know his recruitment.

ADV MEMANI: And besides collating evidence and passing it on to the various people who would have use for it, you made visits to houses of people who had skipped the country to join MK and APLA.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: No, when I started working at the office in 1986 that job stopped.

ADV MEMANI: What I was putting to you is that you did in fact do visits to homes of people who'd left the country to join MK and APLA.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, we did make visits up to 1985 and in 1986 when I started working in the office I stopped those visits.

ADV MEMANI: Now, did you stop later, very late in 1986?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I stopped when I started working in the office, I was now working in the office and I stopped visiting them.  There was a division visiting them.