Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Shepstone — 1996-08-12

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much, Mr Mthethwa, for coming in to see us.  Just like I said to the last witness, you are the fourth person who's come from Murchison today from Nkanyezini, and it is an area which has seen terrible violence.  It's one thing to get people to come and join a camp, but it's another thing to try and kill them because they refuse to join that camp.  That shows absolute complete lack of belief in another human being, and it is a terrible thing that ... (intervention)

WITNESS:  More especially that we could not even sleep at night because of this camp.  Every time we will be told to go to the camp.

COMMISSIONER: We understand that, and I just want to repeat that it really shows absolutely no respect for another human being that you should try and kill another person because he or she does not agree with you.  And, as I have said earlier today, we hope that that sort of thing has by and large passed.  We will try and get to the bottom of this.  We will try and find out why the correct person was not charged.  I see from your statement that two of those people have already died, Majola and Mhlongo.  We will follow up with the third person to see why he was not charged, and we will also try to make arrangements for you to see a doctor.  If you speak to one of the briefers after you have given your evidence today we will try and ensure that you see a doctor in this area so that he can assess whether you still need treatment for your wounds.  Thank you very much, Mr Mthethwa, for coming in today.  We're very grateful for the fact that you came and shared your story with us.  Thank you.

WITNESS:   I also thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Can you hear me, Mrs Ngcobo?  Can you understand me as I talk to you?

MRS NGCOBO: Yes, I do.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.  You are also from the Murchison area, from Mbhayimbhayi,a nd you have come to tell us today about the death of your husband, Isaac Ngcobo, who was killed in April 1990.  We extend our deep sympathies to you.  You are one of many people who has come to the Commission all over this country to talk about the death of their husband or their child, and we know how difficult it is for you to come and repeat that story in a public place, so thank you very much for coming in.  Before you tell us your story can you please stand up and take the oath.

BATHINI NGCOBO: (Sworn, States)   (Through Interpreter)

BATHINI NGCOBO: Good morning, Mrs Ngcobo.  Please try to speak up.  How many kids do you have?

WITNESS:   I have four children.

BATHINI NGCOBO: How old are they?

WITNESS:   The eldest is 10 years old.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Are they schooling?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are schooling, but at the present moment they are no longer attending school.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Are they staying at home?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are staying at home.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Yes, we'll come back to that point.  While you were at Mbhayimbhayi at Murchison did you belong to any political organisation?

WITNESS:   No, we were just staying there.

BATHINI NGCOBO: With your husband?

WITNESS:   Yes, with my husband.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Explain to us what happened on the 4th of April 1990.  What happened?

WITNESS:   People arrived while we were sitting in the house.  They pointed us with firearms and they told us to get out.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Please try to help the witness to be closer to the mike so that we can hear her well.

WITNESS:   They pointed guns at us and we started running out of the house.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Where were the people from?

WITNESS:   I don't know.

BATHINI NGCOBO: At what time?

WITNESS:   It was somewhere about 8 or 7 o'clock in the evening.

BATHINI NGCOBO: You said they came and pointed firearms at you.  Was it your husband and you and your children?

WITNESS:   Yes, and my sister-in-law.

BATHINI NGCOBO: When they arrived what did they do?

WITNESS:   They just pointed guns at us and they pulled my husband out of the house.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Was the house closed?

WITNESS:   It wasn't closed.

BATHINI NGCOBO: So they just get in, they didn't even knock?

WITNESS:  Yes.

BATHINI NGCOBO: What were you doing?  Were you having supper?

WITNESS:  Yes.

BATHINI NGCOBO: In the statement you said at the time while you were having supper they arrived and they started knocking at the door.  It means then we have to correct the statement.

WITNESS:   Yes, they didn't knock, they just pushed the door and come in.

BATHINI NGCOBO: What happened when they were in?

WITNESS:   They pointed the gun at my husband and they told him to get out of the house.

BATHINI NGCOBO: And what happened to you?

WITNESS:   We get out and started running to the nearby houses.

BATHINI NGCOBO: They took your husband out?

WITNESS:   Yes, they took him out and stood under a tree.

BATHINI NGCOBO: And you said you entered into other houses.

WITNESS:   Yes, we went to these houses and get into the rooms.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Could you see what they were doing to your husband?

WITNESS:   Yes, we peeped through the windows.  They talked to him.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Did you hear what they were talking about?

WITNESS:   No, we couldn't hear anything, but we heard later.  We heard him saying, "Don't touch me here.  I don't have a gun."  While we were still listening he was saying, "Don't touch here, I don't have a gun."

BATHINI NGCOBO: Were the other people who were there with him holding guns?

WITNESS:   Yes, they were having guns.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Were they big guns?

WITNESS:   No, I couldn't see because they were wearing these long coats and they were wearing Balaclava hats.

BATHINI NGCOBO: So you couldn't see who they were?

WITNESS:   Yes, we couldn't.

BATHINI NGCOBO: What happened then?

WITNESS:   While we were still there we heard a gunshot.  We waited.  We heard the second shot and then they started running away.

BATHINI NGCOBO: At the time you heard the gunshots what was happening to your husband?

WITNESS:   He didn't fall.  He fell at the second shot.

BATHINI NGCOBO: And what happened from there?

WITNESS:   They started running away.

BATHINI NGCOBO: How many were they?

WITNESS:   They were three.

BATHINI NGCOBO: After they ran away what happened?

WITNESS:   From that time I was able to run out of the house, and went to the place where he were.  I asked him what happened.  I tried to turn him, and then he was lying on the floor facing up.  /When you

BATHINI NGCOBO: When you say you went there to turn him, where were you at that time?  (Interpreter:  The witness is pointing at a position where we can't see, but she is saying that they shot him at the eye.)

BATHINI NGCOBO: When you found your husband in that situation did you try to call neighbours to come and help?

WITNESS:   I cried and cried until I was powerless.  Not even a single neighbour came to help me.

BATHINI NGCOBO: What do you think was the reason why nobody came to help you?

WITNESS:   I don't know why.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Was it a usual thing that when your neighbour is crying people wouldn't come out?

WITNESS:   I don't know.  Maybe it just happened to me.  But after that the police arrived.

BATHINI NGCOBO: You said you called your neighbour to call the police.  Is that true that you called the neighbour?

WITNESS:  No, I didn't call the neighbour.  I didn't ask him to call the police, I just saw the police arriving.  I don't know who called them.

BATHINI NGCOBO: In other words you are saying that it's not true as it's stated in your statement that you went to your neighbour to call the police?

WITNESS:   No, that's not true.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Yes, the police arrived.  What did they say?

WITNESS:  They asked us questions, started photographing the place, and then they went away.

BATHINI NGCOBO: Did they take a statement?

WITNESS:   They took a statement on the next day.

BATHINI NGCOBO: After the matter was before the police did they try to investigate as to who killed your husband?