Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

DJ MKHIZE: I cannot be sure of that, whether he told me that he was an ANC member or not.  What I do remember is that there are certain things that we discovered when we started investigating him as per instruction.
	We then discovered that he had certain connections with the ANC.

MR NGUBANE: Your answer here is very, very crucial.  Because the picture that you are trying to project here is that you killed him to advance the aims and objects of your party; that's why you reported him to the superior people.  Now Mr Mkhize, if Mr Nati Gumede was just an ordinary man according to the information that you received from Romeo, would you have gone to Ulundi to report that he has implicated Romeo?

DJ MKHIZE: Even if it was a woman who had implicated Romeo I would have reported that Romeo is just about to be arrested.  And it is for that reason that I followed instructions to kill Nati.  That is after having received the instruction that I should investigate.  I did so.
	And the second instruction came to kill him, and I did so as well.  Even though it was not Nati I would have done the same thing.  I would report the matter to my superiors.

MR NGUBANE: While according to your own version you knew that these people in high authority were dirty people; you would definitely do that, report this thing to them with a view of having them defeating the ends of justice either by ordering you to kill the complainant or interfering with the docket.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, I agree with what you are saying.  My aim was that Romeo should not be arrested.  And therefore I knew that as people who were protected pertaining to such matters as arrest, I knew that and I thought that Romeo would not be arrested.  It was very important that Romeo be protected from arrest.  For the reasons that I have already explained, as to how much damage that would cause to us.
	And therefore I reported with full knowledge that anything might happen to prevent Romeo from being arrested.  I must agree to that.

MR NGUBANE: Yes.  And on the day of killing of Nati Gumede you had travelled to Ulundi and met with Prince Gideon Zulu.  You had been summoned there with the sole aim of being sent to kill a nurse at Eshowe.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: That is not correct.  I was summoned to fetch a car which would be used to kill Nxumalo, the mail nurse at Eshowe and a certain security who was working at the hospital together with Nati Gumede.  Not as you state Mr Ngubane that I was summoned to Ulundi to receive an instruction to go and kill Nxumalo.

MR NGUBANE: If the Committee Members can bear with me.  Okay.  Thank you very much.  At the time of your killing of Nati Gumede, was the matter already set down for trial?

DJ MKHIZE: I don't know, I cannot remember.

MR NGUBANE: For how long approximately had you wanted to kill Nati Gumede before you actually killed him?

DJ MKHIZE: It is very difficult to establish or ascertain as to how long it took for us to track him down.  But I really cannot say, really.

MR NGUBANE: And you knew very well that if he was not eliminated, Mbambo would definitely be convicted.

DJ MKHIZE: There were other things that would be done to prevent him from conviction, apart from the death of Nati.  I have already explained about cover-ups in here at the Commission there were other ways.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, let's - well, I suggest to you that the case of Nati is clearly an instance wherein you acted purely as a criminal with the aim of defeating the ends of justice and you shouldn't be granted amnesty in that regard.

DJ MKHIZE: That is not how I view it, because if a criminal activity was done with an instruction of our authorities under the hit squad activity then, I do not therefore see any reason why it can be said that this is not politically connected.  Especially because we know fully well that the plot was orchestrated because there was fighting going on with the ANC.
	If I still remember very well I explained yesterday that the two movements, the ANC and the IFP were doing whatever within their power, anything to fight their enemies.  And I have equally explained before the Commission here that things such as setting people up against one another; propaganda; killing; these were the kinds of strategies that were used in politics.
	And we had here at Esikhawini arrived at a similar situation where we could use whatever at our disposal to undermine our enemy.  And therefore there is no other reason that I can bring forward that could lead to Nati telling lies about Romeo, because indeed Romeo did not rob the vehicle.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that at the close of the trial in the Durban Supreme Court you admitted to the previous convictions?  That will be pg 44, line 18 onwards?  The previous conviction of assault common, and you received sentence of a fine of R800 or four months imprisonment.  Is that right?

DJ MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Was that a political assault or it was just an ordinary, criminal assault?

DJ MKHIZE: First of all I would like to say that that assault was not associated with what I was doing here at Esikhawini, because I was at Hammersdale at the time.  That is why it was trialled at the Camperdown court.

MR NGUBANE: You were convicted in 1992, in 1992 you were convicted of malicious injury to property and you were sentenced to 12 months imprisonment fully suspended for five years.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.  Even though I was convicted in 1992, but it was not a crime committed in 1992, but it happened years earlier.

MR NGUBANE: Now Sir, I'm suggesting to you that you were given some political orders, and you abused those orders to exceed the bounds of your - in some instances to exceed the bounds of your mandate and harass community at large you know, as you pleased.

DJ MKHIZE: What I can agree to here Mr Ngubane is that yes, it is true with reference to the ANC community.  I may have harassed people.  I may have hurt people, but that I think happened because of the kind of hatred that was incalcased (?) upon me.  And therefore I cannot deny that I did that.

MR NGUBANE: And the incident on para 78 of your affidavit at Nkondane Shese's shebeen in H2 section, you referred to it yesterday.  Is that right?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now I got confused here.  Is the shebeen Nkondane's shebeen or is it Paul Ngema's shebeen or they are one and the same thing?

DJ MKHIZE: These are different people and Nkondane Shese's shebeen was at H2 section.  And Paul Ngema's was at J1 section.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  So you were having your drinks at Nkondane Shese's shebeen, not at Paul Ngema's shebeen.

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now this shebeen was in H2, the area which you claim is an ANC area.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did you frequent the shebeen?

DJ MKHIZE: I would sometimes go there because Nkondane's mother's surname is Mkhize as well, and I knew therefore that he would be my cousin.  And I would go there because that would give me a chance to gather certain information, which information we may have wanted at the time.

MR NGUBANE: And Nkondane, was he an ANC man?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.  People who patronised the shebeen were ANC members.  And he had his house within the ANC community.  And that on its own explained the fact that he was towing the same ANC line.

MR NGUBANE: And the gentleman that drove you away after the fight, what was his name?  Ali?  Is it Ali Dlamini?

DJ MKHIZE: Ali Khumalo.

MR NGUBANE: Ali Khumalo.

DJ MKHIZE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And did he also stay in H2 section?

DJ MKHIZE: He stayed at my house with me.

MR NGUBANE: What was his status?  Was he also a hit man or he was just an ordinary civilian?

DJ MKHIZE: He knew nothing about politics and he is not even Khumalo.  He is just a foreigner from say perhaps whose origin is Blantyre maybe.