Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Kruser, the Chairperson has already questioned you about the difference between the earlier group of marchers that went past Shell House and the group that ultimately you gave an order to repel.  What I am not particularly clear and I just need a little bit of clarity from you - how different was this last group from the other groups because from your evidence it is quite clear that particularly the Klein Street was quite a large group consisting of approximately 500 members, carried an assortment also of traditional weapons as well as automatic weapons, behaved in a provocative and intimidating manner and was also chanting.  How different was that particular group from the group that you gave an order to repel?  If I remember your evidence well and you may be able to correct me if I have not got your evidence properly - the Klein Street group also fired at the direction of your security officers?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The impression that they were firing at Lancet Hall - PW offices.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you for correcting that piece of evidence but how different was this particular group from the group that ultimately you gave an order to repel?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman, the first thing is that this group shot on members of my surveillance unit which were surveiling the back parts of the ...[inaudible] and they came back to report to me and that's when we went to the corner, that's the first distinction, none of the other groups ever fired any shots at any of my personnel.
	The other groups moved constantly they were not congregating in a group, they were moving up and back but they were not moving forward.  The other groups moved in like a toy-toy fashion past although one or two would run out and be provocative.  This group - seems to be like two groups coming together and they were standing there and having this - they were shouting - as I say I could not hear what they were shouting but the tone which I could hear and their movement was not one where they were led and toy-toying past and being provocative in that sense.  It was like a regrouping of people ready to do something, that's how I saw the group being very different.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The dance that you were advised by Mr Zuma that they were performing, the war dance, could that also have influenced your perception about this group?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think that played a role in cementing what I though what was happening at that time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you have also given evidence about secondary shooting?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you just explain to me what in fact secondary shooting is or was understood to have been by the security guards who were situated on the parapet of Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Secondary shooting Mr Chairman is - we deployed a group of people among other functions was to do what we call secondary shooting.  What happens if someone launches an attack at a specific point to say our guards at a specific point, it would be very easy for them to concentrate their fire if they had more fire power directly at us in advance but if we had a secondary line of fire of defence, it would be very difficult for these people to guard because they would have to concern themselves with another level of fire coming from another direction to make it easier for us to defend against a large group of people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is it possible that the people who were located on the parapet, hearing the warning shots that you had ordered Mr Rama and other security officers to fire could have misconstrued or misunderstood that kind of fire to be coming from the crowd and to have then fired thinking that you were under attack?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think I even conceded in the inquest that that was a possibility, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At the time when you gave the order, ultimately to fire on to the crowds of marchers who you perceived were about to attack you, what was your state of mind, would you say you were agitated, you were anxious, obviously all these things happening at about the same time and within a short space of time?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It was a very stressful situation, I was very tense, very anxious, extremely anxious I would say, very tense, very worried and concerned.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Had you been subjected to a situation like that before where both your leadership and the greater majority of the ANC were housed at Shell House were threatened with that kind of an attack, had you been subjected to something like that before?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: We were never - not at Shell House.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So that was the first kind of experience that you had in the circumstances?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's absolutely correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I want to ask one or two questions with regard to the extract that has been given to us, it's bundle B, it's page 261, starting from page 261.  That contains the list of people who were issued with firearms.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am particularly interested to get your explanation on why we actually have dates which are ranging from the 3rd March 1994 to 24th March 1994 against the names of persons who were issued with firearms?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That would be the normal procedure how we issue firearms.  Those firearms are issued in the normal line of duty, bodyguards and people who had houses or whatever normal line of duty.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I though this extract was in fact a document which did not form part of the normal register?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think that's what the debate is about.  This is a normal - part of the normal register we had at Shell House.  On the day itself, the names after the 24th, the eight names below that is names which people are issued firearms on the morning of the 28th in haste where we never had the dates or the signatures and I was saying when I was with the lawyers doing this, my recollection was done somewhere but I wasn't entirely sure it was done in the register, but subsequently to show it was done in the register.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And lastly, Mr Kruser, during your ...[inaudible] evidence you stated that the order to fire warning shots was issued to Mr Rama however in your affidavit it appears that that order was not only issued to Mr Rama but was also issued to the guards who were at the corner of King George and Plein Street.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think my evidence is I gave - I instructed the guards to issue - fire warning shots and I saw V.J. Rama - it's the only person I saw firing warning shots.  I think that's my evidence, I don't say I gave him specifically an order because he was one of the people close to me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you very much, Mr Kruser.

CHAIRPERSON: Please look at this document, 261 which is supposed to be an extract from the register?  The dates in the right hand column, are they the dates on which these firearms were issued?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] one was issued on the 24th March 1994 and one on the 23rd March 1994, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And those two, did they have a bearing on this particular incident or were they not related to this incident?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My recollection they were guns issued in the normal line of duty.

CHAIRPERSON: In the normal line of duty?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you turn to the next page - the entries on that page of people to whom guns were issued - who were those issued by?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Our administrative secretary's Kumbile Kubeka, if I get the name right.

CHAIRPERSON: You had nothing to do with any of those entries?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: You're talking about the bottom right hand corner, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I had nothing to do with those entries.