Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, excuse me, but I think we are getting into semantics here, and I don't get the point of the question.

MR MALAN: You see, if there is a request and you construct the request as an order, you would simply carry on and do it.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You wouldn't agree or disagree?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I agreed to carry out the request.

MR MALAN: Is that your understanding if there is an order, you have to agree to carry out the order, or do you just carry out?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I most definitely can agree to carry out the order, or not carry it out Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Is that what you are trying to say to us?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  This "braaivleis" that you recall, it would seem to my mind that certainly you won't simply spend the whole day at a shooting range, without making provision for lunch and there is nothing sinister, I don't know, attached to having a "braaivleis" in the open, whilst you were waiting for further instructions or waiting for dark.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, as I said, my recollection is that we had a braai there the afternoon, and that was it.

ADV PRIOR: And normally with a braai, a few beers are consumed, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Contrary to popular belief, Mr Chairman, I don't believe any alcohol was consumed on that specific day.

ADV PRIOR: Normally, generally  when policemen are in the bush, spending some time there and a "braaivleis" is prepared, there is normally beers or alcohol, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I normally drank beer when I am braaiing, yes.

ADV PRIOR: Yes.  Can you think of any reason why Bosch steered well clear of that question?  I put it to him and he said no, his recollection is that someone bought cold drink.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, as I said, I have no idea.  My recollection is that we did braai.

ADV PRIOR: Bosch struck me yesterday as a frightened or nervous person.  Is he generally like that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I haven't seen Mr Bosch for 10 or 11 years.

ADV PRIOR: He said he was the official photographer cum video man at Vlakplaas and he didn't know why he was on this operation.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I very rarely worked with Mr Bosch, so I don't know what he did.

ADV PRIOR: What did he do on your recall, was he just basically sitting around there?  Did he assist you in the interrogation, did he assist in taking Bhila out of the vehicle, what is your recall?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember him vividly doing anything.

ADV PRIOR: McCarter also had no recollection of an interrogation, questioning?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I said, sitting here today, having heard the evidence, I don't know.

ADV PRIOR: All right, tell me these two pistols, these Baby Brownings, or .25 calibre, aren't those the type of weapons you use for almost for killing people, I mean for close up work?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I suppose the calibre and the size would lend itself to close up.

ADV PRIOR: You wouldn't use your 9 mm to shoot someone in the head from the sort of range that you were from Bhila?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I suppose any weapon could have been used at close range.

ADV PRIOR: So why didn't you use your 9 mm, your standard issue?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I said in my main evidence, it was a throw away, it was a deniable weapon.  If I needed to get rid of it, that is it.

ADV PRIOR: All right, tell me, in your amnesty application, when you made this statement to your legal representative, you were quite clear that you shot Bhila in the head, plus minus seven times?  Let's just take it step by step.
	You were clear when you made it, December 1996?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection when I made the statement Mr Chairman, was that at the end of that, the slide was open and the assumption I made was, that yes, the magazine was empty.

ADV PRIOR: Surely, you were recounting what you remembered and you remembered when you made the statement in your amnesty application, that you had shot at least seven times, more or less seven times, you had shot into the head of  Bhila, or the person that you were shooting?
	You never told your Attorney at that stage, that the gun had jammed and you had cleared the gun or your recollection was that you had cleared the gun, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, it is not correct Mr Chairman.  As I remember, as I said earlier, firing a shot, having the weapon jam, cocking it a number of times, and then the next thing I remember is that the weapon was empty.
	I don't remember how many shots I fired.  I recall the first shot I fired.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is not what you said in your affidavit that you made to your lawyer.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I understand that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In your affidavit you said I then shot the suspect plus or minus seven times, in the head.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I understand that.  What I am saying is it might have been semantics, it might have been anything.  My recollection is firing one shot, cocking the weapon a number of times, and the weapon at the end of the next thing that I can remember, is the weapon being locked back and open.

CHAIRPERSON: If you told your lawyer that, why didn't he write it down?  Why did you swear to something different?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no explanation for that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The only explanation I can possibly accept is that you did not tell your lawyer that, because he was writing down an affidavit.  He wouldn't have written down his own version which contradicted what you said?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Very possibly, I just don't see the point of having come here to tell the truth and open up, and lie about something like that of which I am implicated any way.

MR MALAN: Mr Rosslee, I am not sure whether you heard Mr Prior's question correctly.  He asked whether you had any recollection telling your lawyer, when you made this affidavit, about the pistol jamming?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I don't recall telling him that.

MR MALAN: All right, I think that was the question.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Okay.

ADV PRIOR: Well, isn't the simple truth that now, in Committee before the public, you have difficulty reconciling what you did with actually shooting Bhila at least seven times, well about seven times in the head.
	It certainly seems more grave than simply on your version, well, at least once?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman ...

ADV PRIOR: It goes to your intention, what you wanted to do?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My intention Mr Chairman, right there was to eliminate Mr Bhila.

ADV PRIOR: Well, why did you shoot him in the head?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, if we didn't shoot him in the head with a small calibre like that, we probably would have had to shot him more times.  But the point I am trying to make is I recall the jam and purely by clearing the jam, there is no way I could have fired those seven shots.

ADV PRIOR: I am going to suggest to you that this jam of the vehicle is a fabrication that you have thought up recently.

CHAIRPERSON: Jam of the vehicle Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Jam of the firearm, did I say vehicle, I apologise.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, that will be speculation on your part.  My recollection is firing a shot, having a jam and that is it.

ADV PRIOR: Look, you have been taken through this, I don't want to argue and argue, but when you say it is my speculation, it is what you told your Attorney and what you told Captain Holmes, that you shot several shots into Bhila's head.
	Mr Rosslee, that is taken from your own words?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Fair enough Mr Chairman, I don't recall how many shots I fired.  I recall the first one, the jam and the weapon being locked back.