Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-13

CHAIRPERSON: You have two more minutes.

MR SAVAGE: Thank you.  In conclusion, Chairperson, may I say that the historical record of the group confirms opposition to Apartheid in pursuing a more enlarged approach than many other business, it is now proud of the fact that it employs more than 340 qualified Black graduate and diplomates and the majority of skilled and supervisory posts are occupied by Blacks.
 Our resources of services to facilitate Black economic empowerment was valued at some 200 million rands last year and is estimated to be 300 million rands this year.  Already three percent of after tax profits are expanded on affirmative action programmes and quality of life programmes already.
 It is planned to allocate an amount equal to four percent of the group's annual payroll to (indistinct) of that it 32 million rands a year.  The payroll is 800 million rands a year.  It has planned to put four percent of this into training and development and many substantial grants on top of this have been made to socially deserving causes.
 Finally, Chairperson, probably the most important contribution that the Tongaat-Hulett group can make to the greater society in the future, is to remain a world class business in order to survive economically and grow successfully.
 Simply put, if we are not successful in business, we will not have anything to offer.  You may be interested to know, that today through the payment of wages and salaries to our employees, and taxes paid, the group is contributing an excess of one billion rands a year to the public good.
 May I conclude then by saying if the work of this Commission resulting from the business sector hearing can prevent the evils of the past reoccurring, we believe, the three of us here, that this exercise will have proved a valuable contribution to South Africa and the future.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Savage.  Rev Finca?

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you, Chair.  Your submission, Mr Savage deals primarily with your agricultural work as requested by the Commission, but I'm grateful that you have dealt also with the - what you call an appalling incident which shocked so many in this country when the bones of Mr Meweni were dug in your property.
 I know that you said that the Durban office of the Commission is handling this matter and we may not want to delve on it long, here, but I just want to raise a general question with you.
 How would you describe your relationship with the security police in the Apartheid period?

MR SAVAGE: I think it's a very good question and after making three comments I'm going to ask JB Makwasa to help answer that.
 But there's no doubt about it.  You might have had the impression also, after having to deal with so much violence as you've had to deal with, of opposing factions in KwaZulu Natal, the police, the South African - now, I'm not talking about the security police, the South African Police played a very important role and there's no doubt that our own security police within the Government, within the company were close to them.  There's no doubt about that.  They had to be.
 When we had massive disruptions and as we went up that learning curvy over a period of about fifteen years, we learned and the police learned that when there was disruption, they would then keep a low profile.
 In the early days they kept - they were right up front and that inflamed the whole situation.  So there was close - there was no doubt, there was close contact.  Not only with the police, the managers of security in our group, but also the other companies in KwaZulu Natal.  There was close contact.
 Now, with regard to security police, that's another issue altogether.  As I said whilst we knew we were letting this one house of 300 houses being let out at the time, to the SA police and I'd like to add we are continuing to let houses to the Sa police at the moment.  It's under new dispensation, but we still continue to let houses to the new South African police.  
 We weren't aware of the fact that it - that he was a security policeman, but JB Makwasa has also done a full investigation to this and JB maybe you'd like to add to it.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.  I think the issue is actually quite critical.  The issue of the relationship between Tongaat-Hulett group and the security police.
 At the meetings held in May this year, between Tongaat-Hulett group management and the KwaZulu leadership of COSATU and the ANC, the issue of perceived coalition between Tongaat-Hulett group security department and the South African police particularly the period of state security, was raised.
 Then, subsequent to that, we carried out an investigation to try and get to grips with this issue.  As far as it can be ascertained, there was no active coalition between the security police - between the security departments within the Tongaat-Hulett group and the security police of the state.
 Company security personnel did however liaise with the police in the normal course of their duty and this included contact with the security branch of the state.
 Whilst we were doing this investigation, we also became aware of the fact that at some stage the head of the security personnel within Tongaat-Hulett group, a Mr Jan Steenkamp, who has since retired, was in fact a member of the military before he joined Tongaat-Hulett groups and that in fact he had a brother who was associated with the bureau of state security in South Africa.
 However, there was no indication that that relationship at any (indistinct) with what was taking place within Tongaat-Hulett group.
 Thank you, Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: With the benefit of hind sight, after having listened to the testimonies that have come through the Truth Commission hearings, do you think that it is appropriate in your letter that you actually - in your letter to Richard Lyster, you say that the properties - you have rented out properties to a wide range of individuals, families and institutions, such as church groups, schools, hospitals, police, defence force, etcetera.
 I mean, with the benefit of hind sight, would you put the activities of the security police on the same level as the other institutions that you are referring to?

MR SAVAGE: No ... (intervention).

BONGANI FINCA: Let me just come back to this question again.  Is this just an isolated incident?  Can we have just an isolated incident or was there in fact a practice of having a number of these people actually operating within your properties?

MR SAVAGE: I can categorically say it was an isolated incident and there was no conscious efforts of our company to collude with illegal activities with the security police.   We can say that categorically.  The reason I gave as a back ground the number of houses that we let out, the 300 houses, that fact that we let them out to contractors, church groups, schools, teachers, a wide range;  was to indicate the range of people.
 It wasn't meant to indicate that we viewed the security police on the same value system as the other tenants.  But we were appalled, we were absolutely appalled by the incident.

BONGANI FINCA: Just a last question.  Did you attempt to reach out to the Neweni family on this matter?  I know that we're told yesterday that the business of business is business, it's not to show compassion and have moral values attached to these things, but it's such an appalling incident as you've said it.
 Did you do anything to reach out to the family?