Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

A J G ERWEE: Correct, yes.  It was directly, almost directly above the passenger side of the mini-bus, where previously it would have been a bit further away for proper visual contact with the Defence Force contingent.

UNKNOWN: So when you gave the cease-fire command, did the members cease firing?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, that is correct, the members ceased firing and we jumped out of the Casspir with some speed. Each person ran in a direction to get away from the teargas. If I look at Exhibit C, I ran in an easterly direction in the road for approximately 80, 50 to 80 metres.  The road there - there was a bend in the road there and I just want to correct what I said earlier. I said the road turned slightly to the north. It actually turns a little bit to the south.

UNKNOWN: Now where was Capt Bourne in this confusion?

A J G ERWEE: As I ran away I heard the helicopter approaching and I heard people shouting. I heard people saying that Capt Bourne had been shot.  In this process of running 50 to 80 metres in an easterly direction, the helicopter came in to land on the road.

UNKNOWN: Where approximately?

A J G ERWEE: About 80 metres from the low-water bridge or from the Casspir rather.

UNKNOWN: In the east?

A J G ERWEE: In the easterly side. I then saw Col Piet Dreyer and one other person come running with the injured Capt Bourne. I tried to help them to load the captain into the helicopter.  From the time the shooting started and from the time the helicopter took off was about five to 10 minutes and then the helicopter was already gone.

UNKNOWN: Why did the helicopter depart so suddenly?

A J G ERWEE: The tear smoke or teargas which was hanging in the air made it clear to the pilot that they should proceed with speed, because the teargas could harm them.

UNKNOWN: Did you hear that?

A J G ERWEE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you hear them saying "let us move because we are going to be overwhelmed by the teargas"?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: And they left with Bourne?

A J G ERWEE: Correct, yes.  I went back to the Casspir and to where the Kombi was. I was quite upset.

UNKNOWN: More or less how long did this last?  Until you could go back into this teargas area?

A J G ERWEE: About 10 minutes.

UNKNOWN: And this was whilst you were waiting for the teargas to lift and to disperse?

A J G ERWEE: Correct.

UNKNOWN: Now you went back to the Casspir and you were upset?

A J G ERWEE: I was upset because the members were crowding around the bus.  I told them to immediately move the Casspir out of the way, to remove the roadblock so that other public vehicles or transport could move through.  I chased the members away from the Kombi, because the Kombi was smoking. I don't know whether it was due to a leakage of engine fluid or maybe it was due to the fuel tank, which had been hit in the shooting.  I saw Black people inside the vehicle.  They looked as if they were dead and the hand-grenades lying around.  My instruction to the personnel there was to move away from the Kombi.  I told Snr Supt Swarts and Kruger, the two explosives experts that they should move the vehicle back to this low-water bridge, to secure the vehicle and what I mean by that, is that they should search the bags and the explosive devices and to search these before the other members could move in.  The members immediately complied with this order and I then instructed Col Piet Dreyer to ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Excuse me just before we get to that.  Did you not give any instructions that the persons should be removed from the Kombi?

A J G ERWEE: That is correct, that is the next step.  That is what the explosives experts were supposed to do.  It was their task, after having pushed back the vehicle down to the low-water bridge, to remove the corpses from the mini-bus and to secure all the other explosive devices.  Immediately afterwards I sent Col Dreyer to Alldays to contact Col Willem van der Merwe and Brig Coetsee by telephone and to tell them that the incident had not turned out successfully as planned; that Capt Bourne had been shot and that the six passengers of the vehicle had been killed, and that Sgt Matthews Sehlwana and the Defence Force member who had thrown the teargas grenade were safe.  I did not send this information by means of a radio message because I knew that my seniors were worried about this incident and I wanted to reassure them.

UNKNOWN: So Dreyer left in one of the bakkies?

A J G ERWEE: Correct, yes. I can't remember whether it was Snr Supt Swart or Supt Kruger, these were the two explosives people, but they told me that one of the passengers in the Kombi was still alive.

UNKNOWN: That's after Dreyer left?

A J G ERWEE: Yes. I ran to the Kombi and I saw or I picked up the injured person.  Somebody, I can't remember who, helped me and we carried this injured person into the dry river bed in a northerly direction, plus minus 20 to 30 metres into this river bed.  I made him comfortable against the bank there and the reason I carried him so far was that I was still concerned about what else could be in the Kombi because I was told that limpet-mines had been seen in the bags and my fear was that a bullet or something had damaged or made one of these limpet mines unstable, that it was dangerous.  I made the injured person comfortable.
	I then called Capt Tokkie Fuchs. I knew that he could speak Sotho and I wanted him to act as interpreter for me.  Why I called Tokkie Fuchs was because I knew I had not seen Sgt Sehlwana at that stage.   He could have been there, but it is possible that he was standing somewhere else, after I had given the order that people should clear the space around the Kombi, which I regarded as unstable.  
	The injured person, the wounded person's eyes were closed. He was covered in blood and he was groaning.  It was clear that he was heavily wounded.  With the assistance of Capt Fuchs I managed to extract the following information from him, that they were on their way to Pietersburg and more specifically, to the railway station, where they were to meet a person and the person was to be wearing a yellow shirt or scarf as an identifying mark. I can't remember whether the deceased said a shirt or a scarf, but it was some yellow garment.  
	This questioning lasted for about three to four minutes. It was very incoherent, and that ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Excuse me for interrupting.  Did the person maintain the same level of stability throughout your interrogation or did it vary?