Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-03

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And assess whatever evidence the Committee has, if it has an opportunity to get another person, definitely we should be entitled to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Having consulted with my learned panellists and having heard Mr Mbandazayo and yourself, if you wish to call a witness you may do so Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to the Committee.  Mr Chairman then I call Mr Eric Williams.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson I was asking him what language he uses he says he's going to try his best, he is Portuguese speaking but he will try Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, if you have any difficulty with the language just let me know and we can try to sort it out as we go along?  You can of course speak any language you wish but I doubt whether there's any Portuguese interpreter to help here.
You'll be speaking in Zulu?

ERIC WILLIAMS: (sworn states)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Williams, you are currently servicing a term of imprisonment?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How long are you in jail?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Seven years six months.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you serving the sentence for this operation, the robbery at Stilfontein?

ERIC WILLIAMS: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You are one of those who carried out this operation?

ERIC WILLIAMS: No I was not present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You were sitting in the hearing when Mr Malefane was testifying and you heard his evidence, am I correct?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  Can you tell us as to how were the AK47's that were used in the act obtained and where did they come from?

ERIC WILLIAMS: They were from home.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Home where?

ERIC WILLIAMS: From Mozambique.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who brought them from Mozambique?

ERIC WILLIAMS: It's Mjaban, you will not know him because he is not present at this juncture.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt.  Mr Williams, when you say from home in Mozambique, is Mozambique your home or is your home in Mozamibique.

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Who gave them over to the group that carried out the operation?

ERIC WILLIAMS: I do not know the people here, I only know the one I was working with, that is Bongi Nkosi Nkuno.  I do not know the rest, I only met them when we got arrested.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who provided the AK47's, is it yourself, is it Mr Nkuno or somebody else?

ERIC WILLIAMS: It's Mjaban, he's presently in Portugal.  He's the one who came here and we met, he spoke about the AK47 because there were a lot of comrades who came to my workplace who were like to be involved in this armed robbery.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did Mjaban give the AK47's to you?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And what did you do with those AK47's?

ERIC WILLIAMS: I sold them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: To who?

ERIC WILLIAMS: I sold them to Sipiwe who was coming from Rustenburg.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you sell any to David Nene?

ERIC WILLIAMS: No I did not, I did not know him at that stage.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt, you've only mentioned AK47's, did you have anything to do with other firearms that were used that we've heard from Mr Malefane, that were used in the operation namely two revolvers and one pistol?

ERIC WILLIAMS: No I did not, I only had two AK47's.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And according to your knowledge the two AK47's you had are they the ones that they used in this operation?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be all Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other point about the money?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, the other point of the money is not this witness, it's another one Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson.
	Who did you give this AK47 for this operation at Stilfontein?

ERIC WILLIAMS: I gave them to Sipiwe who was from Rustenburg.  He bought them from me.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, do you know what Sipiwe's name is, the other name?

ERIC WILLIAMS: I've forgotten his surname, I only know him as Sipiwe and the fact that he was from Rustenburg.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You indicated - you said in your evidence in chief that you were not involved in this operation.  How did you know that those Ak47's you sold to Sipiwe were used in this operation?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Sipiwe told me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You were told by Sipiwe?

ERIC WILLIAMS: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Now I understand that you are serving in prison for this operation, am I correct?

ERIC WILLIAMS: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you were convicted of your participation in this operation, am I correct?

ERIC WILLIAMS: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee what was the reason of your conviction for participating in this operation yet your only role you played was only to supply ....(intervention)

ERIC WILLIAMS: I've got no idea, that's what I want to know.
Even now I haven't yet got an answer as to why I was convicted.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Chairperson on the bundle page 36 of the bundle, now I will read a passage from your confession.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo are you in a position to effect your own translation and read it in English or would you prefer Advocate Bosman to read it into the record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I request that because maybe my interpretation won't be that perfect so I understand Afrikaans but I'll ask Advocate Bosman to help with this.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just identify the passage you want?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I'll just start with the sentence number 1 and number 2.

INTERPRETER: Is the panel aware that there are Afrikaans interpreters available?

CHAIRPERSON: Because the last time I asked they - are they available?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, well they're available, if you could just do it, I didn't know because last time I asked they said I should do it in English.  Thank you, no that's fine, I didn't know that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
"We were arrested at Stilfontein.  It was myself, Bongani, Mkhize, Ngubane, Mchunu, David, Aaron and Phillip.  All the people were armed with weapons except for myself, Phillip and Aaron.  Phillip said that I and Aaron had to stay at the background where we would rob the Fidelity Guards because we did not know the work all that well and we waited at the car.  Phillip said that when we finished with the work we had to drive behind them back to Johannesburg.  We then waited at the car.  Phillip went ahead in the bakkie, we waited long for them but we did not see them.  Aaron and myself went back to Johannesburg and a Hartebeesfontein the bakkie passed us at a high speed and we did not see them again.  Close to Klerksdorp the bakkie was stopped by the police and we did not see them again."

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Williams, why did you tell whoever was taking your confession, I think it was the police, about your involvement, that you were waiting in the car, if I may put it, when this operation took place and yet you are saying here that you were never here?

ERIC WILLIAMS: Whatever is written in here was written and I was assaulted and told to sign.  I was threatened with death in case I did not sign.  I signed but the contents of this statement are totally unknown to me.  I wanted an interpreter, a portuguese interpreter but I could not get one so they wrote the statement in Afrikaans and thereafter made me sign it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying to this Committee that what is written here was just a figmentation of the police as to what actually happened there and they wrote it down and let you sign?