Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

MR STANDER: You said it was frustrating when somebody came in and asked you about an incident that has just happened.  What happened then?

WHITE MOHAPE: Then, after that I stayed there and they did nothing and I was later released, I went home.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, where is there, you say you stayed there?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, I am saying it is at Fountain Police Station or Fountain Security Branch Offices.

MR STANDER: Is there anything else which you would like to add to your testimony with regard to the applications of Messrs Ngo and Motsamai?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, what happened is that later on after being released, I think it was some time, I was called, I came after school, I went home and then when I arrived at home Ngo phoned me and when he phoned me at home he said to me he wants to talk to me, he wants to see me secretly, because there are things that he wants to, you know, talk to me about and then I said to him, no, I cannot do that, you know.  You are a police informer, you are working for the system, how then do I see myself having a secret meeting with you and I refused to meet him.

MR STANDER: Are you able to tell us today, how many times, more or less, you were arrested?

WHITE MOHAPE: I am not certain in terms of the numbers, but I am saying it is plus or minus ten to 15 times and in instances that I have been detained, when after, for instance, let me take the ones when Ngo was then already working for Erasmus.  He has been part of those people who were coming to my house and take me.  In every, also, in every instance, also, Mamome has been part of that.  He has been coming to me when they cross-question me in their offices he will be with them.  So, it is many instances that Ngo and Mamome has been present when Erasmus and Shaw will either question me or themselves, because there is one other instance after one student was killed at Zenzela Hall.
	Mamome, when I was at security branch offices after I was advised by my advocate, it was not long after the case of Ngo when he was, when I was charged for that and then I was advised by advocate to go to the security branch offices and find out what do they want me for and when I went there I found Erasmus and Shaw, Ngo was there, Mamome was there, Motsamai was there and then they, Motsamai, Mamome was asking me what has happened, why did I had to kill that student?  I said, I told him that I did not do that.  I, in actual fact, I was part of those people who were trying to protect that, the informer at that time when he was attacked and then when they took me to their car, when we were in the car, it was driven by Motsamai, they were going to check one other boy who was also alleged to be an informer and then already at that time the first one had already died and Motsamai, Momome said to me how do you feel?  
	He mention that boy by the name.  He said that, I just forgot that chaps name, he said this person has died, how do you feel about that?  I said to him what do you mean how do I feel?  Do you expect me to say I am angry or you expect me to say I am happy?  He said, yes, there is nothing that we expect from you and he was furious.  He could see, you know, if he had anything he could do anything he wanted, because he was furious about that.

MR STANDER: Tell me, do you have any ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, sorry, did you say there, you started on this, but that after Ngo was working for Erasmus?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?

WHITE MOHAPE: I mean after we have exposed him as an informer, you know, he was now working for them full time.

CHAIRPERSON: As an informer?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, I think as a policeman, because he had his own gun.  I remember at one time when I was there at the security branch offices he was carrying his gun, he was, you know, he was their policeman, you know.

MR STANDER: At that stage, what standard had you reached at school?

WHITE MOHAPE: I think at that time I was in standard nine or standard ten, yes, I was in standard ten.  Let me correctly get this thing clear. I was doing my standard nine at the time when we were, you know, exposing him and getting information and then he was doing standard ten, Ngo, yes, and then we had to expose him, because we said at that time, the danger is that if we do not expose him, he is going to finish his studies, he will join them officially and the students are going to reflect on Cosas, but members of Cosas then join security branch offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any scars left from the attacks, assaults on you?

WHITE MOHAPE: I, if, on my left leg I had scars.  There are some small, you know, a patch that you can see, are the results of the wire that I was forced to jump on, you know, when I was kidnapped.  I think the other scars at that time, I can see right now, they have, some of them have disappeared, but I had them.  I think a medical record from Doctor Mkgoni, that he kept on that, because I went to him after that incident.

MR STANDER: Just a minute Mr Chairman.  Those are the questions that I wish to ask the witness, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I can tell you now that I could never complete a cross-examination of this witness this afternoon.  There are many aspects which I will have to take up and which I will have to do research on, but I will go as far as I can, with your leave, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mohape, perhaps I am slow to understand.  I would like to start from the beginning again and get some clarity so that we can all understand what you have come to ... (end of tape 3A) high school and I understand, as you have told us, please stop me if anything I say is wrong, that Nelson Ngo was a fellow student at that school?

WHITE MOHAPE: Correct.

MR VISSER: But he was a year ahead of you, as I understand?

WHITE MOHAPE: Sorry.

MR VISSER: He was a year ahead of you?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: One year?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, one year.

MR VISSER: One year.  And it is true, to come more specifically to the question of the incidents for which they applied for amnesty for, it is true that he became an informer of the security branch, but the evidence is, and I am putting this to you so that you can make a comment if you wish, that this happened after he was attacked by fellow students at this high school.  Now, that is the evidence so far.

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Is that basically correct, that he was attacked ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't the evidence that he was attacked because he was an informer?

MR VISSER: Oh, I am sorry, what am I talking about, you are absolutely right, Mr Chairman, sorry.  I am terribly sorry.  He was, let us just stay with this for the moment, he was attacked, as the Chairman correctly points out, because you discovered that he or you suspected, strongly suspected, that he was an informer?  Yes.  Now, is it true that you were, in fact, together with others arrested and charged with the assault or the attack on Mr Ngo?  Would that be correct?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, after that incident I was ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... I was charged.

MR VISSER: I think, if I remember correctly, he complained that he was stabbed?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And how many accused persons were there?

WHITE MOHAPE: If I can recall correctly, I think we were about six.

MR VISSER: Six?

WHITE MOHAPE: Ja.

MR VISSER: I thought it was four.

WHITE MOHAPE: I cannot remember well, but ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... I remember, I think we were about six.

MR VISSER: Yes, it is not terribly important.  One of them was Billy, was it?

WHITE MOHAPE: Morgan, yes.