Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, in Bundle A, I call the 7th applicant, Mr Abraham Christoffel Fourie and I see there in the index it's incorrect, it shows there that A.C. Vlok's application appears on page 118 to 137, it must be Mr Fourie's application.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: (sworn states)

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Fourie you are an applicant in this matter and you were also found guilty by the court on all the charges except for the theft of the vehicle?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what sentence did you get?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: 21 Years effectively.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you are currently out on bail pending your appeal?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: Since when have you been out on bail?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not know or I cannot recall the date.

MS VAN DER WALT: I think it is October last year.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I think so, I'm not sure of the date.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Fourie on 18 December you were born in Ladysmith in Natal.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in your parents house, did you support any particular political party?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: My father was a Nationalist who at that stage followed Dr Verwoerd's policy.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you yourself did you belong to any political party?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I firstly supported the HNP and I grew up in a very conservative environment.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you receive any military training?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: And during your military training were you given instructions to fight a certain enemy?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.  The enemy was the ANC/SACP alliance and on the border of Angola it was SWAPO.

MS VAN DER WALT: You served for 12 years in the Defence Force?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct and it was voluntary.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you attend any right-wing meetings?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: All the meetings that I heard of I did attend.  Amongst others, most of them were the AWB meetings which I joined in 1977.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you attend most of the AWB meetings?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I saw them as the true mouthpiece of the Afrikaner Boer who support the interests of the Boere.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know what their ideologies were and did you believe in them?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie can you give us a definition of an Afrikaner Boer.  Who is an Afrikaner Boer?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson the way I understood it was it was a person who thinks the way I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but what is that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: You believe in self determination, everybody is his own piece of land where he is governed by his own people who are of the same culture and who understand and know this culture.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these Afrikaans people who live on farms?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I don't think so.

CHAIRPERSON: How does the Boer part fit in?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is the man who believes that everybody together believes in self determination being governed by his own people who understand him.

CHAIRPERSON: So the Afrikaner Boer is a name that certain people give to themselves?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that's correct Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you believed in the ideology of the AWB, what is the ideology of the AWB precisely?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It is self determination, that you be governed by your own people in order to prevent conflict because of this reason because you understand the culture and the interests of these people to put it in short.

CHAIRPERSON: To prevent what type of conflict?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: If you govern another person and you do not understand him there could be certain disputes.  You do not understand his culture, you do not understand the way in which he believes and there could be certain conflict.

MS VAN DER WALT: You attended various AWB meetings, how did you feel about the National Party at that stage?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I felt that the National Party cannot keep up or stand for what Dr Verwoerd stood in the past and the way he created a living for us and that they would not be able to retain their power and that they will have to give it over at some stage to the ANC and SACP alliance.

MS VAN DER WALT: After you joined the AWB did you go through any courses?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I took it very seriously and because I was blessed with a healthy life and had the experience of self protection, I took it seriously to such an extent that I obtained a Boere identity book to be part of the Boerevolk.  I attended courses and I trained people and I saw that many of our people were qualified for the struggle that lies ahead, as was announced from the stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie you talked about an identity document.  What type of identity document was this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I brought it with me in order for me to prove that it is a Boere identity document.  It also has an identity photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does this come from?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: A long time ago we were told that the day when we have a Volkstaat you will only be able to be acknowledged in this Volkstaat if you have an identity document to prove that you are part of the Boerevolk and then I obtained one.  It was issued by - he was also a TV actor, him and his wife.  I cannot remember his surname, he had glasses with a goatee beard.  He was also present at right-wing meetings.  I will probably remember his name later.

CHAIRPERSON: If you remember it will you please inform us.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not realise that it's illegal to have another identity document?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I believed that if it was illegal they wouldn't have issued it.  I even went to the South African Police and took my marriage certificate and driver's licence, I asked them to put a stamp on it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a photocopy of the original?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, if I know that there's an SAP stamp in it then it will be accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson that was or the date is '91, the 27th of the 12th month 1991 it was stamped.

CHAIRPERSON: And did the policeman stamp it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes he did.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this identity document issued by the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson this person spoke at a meeting, I will remember his surname later one, and then we filled in forms or various people did it in order to obtain such a document and I see on top of the book it says:  "Boerevolk".

CHAIRPERSON: Who would take note of it in this Boere State where you would have used it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I did not go into it like that, my interest was that I obtained this identity document.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accept that the government of that Boere State, if you decided to go in there, will take note of it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Precisely so, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Fourie, just in passing, I see that you say that when you were 15 years old you started working.  What standard have you got?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I left school in Standard 7.

MS VAN DER WALT: And afterwards did you receive any other training?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Only in my work did I receive training to qualify.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you very much.

MS VAN DER WALT: What qualifications did you receive for your work?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At that stage I had just turned 16, I left when I was 15 and then I started working in Durban at the railways as an Assistant Track Master, as they called it Track Engineer Assistant.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you qualify in any trade?