Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now my instructions are that a number of officers were taken from their offices forcefully, amongst others was one Wuso, who, on arrival at the college, the armoury keys were demanded from him.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: It might have happened that Col Wuso was taken from his office before 4 o'clock or perhaps after 4.  It was so unfortunate that he would be still in the office after 4.  I remember very well.  I'm the one who forced him to give up the keys and he told us that Col Mema had the keys and I told him that if he does not give us the keys, all of us were going to die because the soldiers had been there.  We wanted the police to be armed so that we don't die unarmed when the soldiers come.  We were also responsible for their safety.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were you there when Col Wuso was brought into the hall?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, I was present, I saw him coming in.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you still recall how many soldiers, how many police brought him?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Because I was inside and that hall had doors just in the middle, the police would just come with a person.  Some people were using a door that was on the western side of the hall.  As they were coming in, the police would come and stand at the door and the officer would see where the other officers were and then he would just go there and join his colleagues.  I cannot remember how many police were there because the police would just stand at the door and the people were a bit squashed there because it was full but they would try and open space for a person who was coming in, to come in, but I did not see how many police were in his company and I did not even see whether he was pointed at with guns.  It is also possible.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Inside the hall there were police who were armed with R5's, R4's and some side arms, is that correct?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, there were police who were armed, because we said that each and every policeman who was there should be armed, whether it was a male or a female, because we were afraid of South African Defence Force.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And there inside the hall, my instructions are that you were busy giving the microphone to the policemen, to the officers in fact, asking the officers to give their service.  Did that happen?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I do not understand this question.  You mean I gave the other officers the microphones, to do what?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Saying that they must give out their service on the mike to the public, or to the police who were there.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I remember very well, Sir.  What happened was this.  The microphone, I was not just giving it to any officer that was on the podium, it was only the officers whose name was mentioned, a person like Brig Kondo, those who were affected, who's names were on the list of the people who were squandering monies and then he mentioned officers and then whoever he mentioned there would be given a mike and to answer for himself.  People like Brig Lando admitted that he found a cheque in his drawer and Brig Kondo.  They did not even ask what those cheques were for.  Someone took a cheque of about R80 000 and cashed it.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And, those actions of giving people mikes and saying that they must state how much they have misappropriated, is that politically motivated?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I can say yes, I can say no, I am going to answer this like this.  As we were sitting there we had already achieved our political objective because Brig Gqozo had already stepped down, but those were the matters that came up like Capt Makubelu's case was not politically motivated but that was the pain that was endured by the people.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, about 8 o'clock or so on the 22nd, you already knew that Brig Gqozo had resigned.  Why was it necessary for you to give an order that other officers must be fetched from their houses and to humiliate them by saying that they must give out their service?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Some of the things were just happening so fast because a person whose name was mentioned, we would just give that particular person a mike to answer for himself.  The most important thing, for us to stay there for the night.  We were prepared to go to the stadium with Brig Gqozo to address the people, but as time went on there were other issues that came about.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And those issues were issues which were not politically related, which had nothing to do with Brig Gqozo stepping down.  Am I correct?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: As the police had their own grievances and it was difficult for them to address, or to voice out those grievances to the management, even in the memorandum that we drafted it was not mentioned, nothing was mentioned about overthrowing Gqozo, the main objective was already achieved and the other things were also problematic things like squandering of monies, those were the things that were coming up from the people, but the main objective was already achieved.  Those were just the things that were coming up as we were sitting there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And all those who have misappropriate funds there were other forums to attend to those problems, inter alia a departmental inquiry, the court of law and all those.  It was not for that forum to address those.  Am I correct?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes you are telling the truth, Sir, but when an investigative unit was established the one that would be used to investigate those monies, things like the cheques, R134 000 that Gen Nqoya confessed about, as we thought that he squandered something like R80 000, he told us that we had a wrong figure, he had squandered something like R134 000, there was a unit that was established to investigate that, not a forum, but Gen Nqoya disbanded that unit and then he took Gen Tlela to Zone 6, who else was going to investigate that?
He took policemen like Xolani, he disbanded them because he knew that he was going to be implicated through the investigation and then we saw that forum as the opportunity to get those people to account because even Attorney-General Jurgens as he came he said the order that was from the Regional Court in Zwelitsha was that those people should be dealt with within the departments but it was difficult for him to implement that because Gen Nqoya is implicated and each time they try to do a kick start but Gen Nqoya will always disrupt that process, so it was difficult for them to get that money back by trying to deduct that from their salaries because each time a unit is established to investigate those monies he just disbands that therefore we saw that forum as the best opportunity for us to discuss such issues because we had time there where they had to be asked to account and that was successful because they did account and that was successful because they did account.  We did not even know that Brig Gqozo got some monies.  We got a surprise on that particular day because we only knew Gen Nqoya as a person who had squandered money.  Brig Kondo, I beg your pardon, not Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you wanted Brig Gqozo to step down, were you hoping that the lives and the welfare of the Ciskei police would be better?