Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MS QUNTA: Okay.  Now she ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Do you say you didn't know what her address was?

MR SIBAYA: I did not know it well because I had met her in a shebeen and then I went to look for her the next day.  She was not certainly my girlfriend.

CHAIRPERSON: Uncertainly your girlfriend.

MS QUNTA: That's just one of the many facts and inconsistiences in what you say in your statements.  But more importantly she also told, she also said in your presence that she was your neighbour in Nyanga East and the address was, I have the address here ...(intervention)

MR SIBAYA: She was still very young at the time.  When we were neighbours she was very young.

MS QUNTA: It's NY, I think Mr Chairman if you will please bear with me I have the address somewhere here, I think it's F5 and F6 in Nyanga East, that's correct.  And yesterday when I asked you where you lived you gave only Guguletu and Langa and you said in Langa you had lived for ten years.  And I asked you whether you had lived anywhere else and you said no. And now you admit that you were neighbours with this in Nyanga East.

MR SIBAYA: That was in the 1960's.  I was not even working at the time.  Between 1959 and 1961 I was also still very young at that point.

MS QUNTA: How old is Mrs Khosana?

MR SIBAYA: She is old now, she's an elderly person.

MS QUNTA: We will leave that.  The lady where you said you went to knock to get directions about where you are she also denied, in your presence, to Mr Mark Killian, that you ever knocked on her door after midnight on that evening.

MR SIBAYA: Nobody would remember something that happened in 1993.  There are probably a lot of people who have knocked on her door since 1993.  She probably can't remember such a thing.

MS QUNTA: But if someone knocks on your door after midnight and you are the only person living in that house and you open that door I want to put it to you that it's not easy to forget that, especially if the following day, as she has said to you and Mr Mark Killian, there were a number of - there was a vehicle parked in the road and there were lots of police and so on, so I don't believe that someone can forget that incident.

MR SIBAYA: Where were the police?

MS QUNTA: The following morning there was a vehicle found in the street in the following morning and the police came there, now that person would have remembered that someone came and knocked at her door the previous night, particularly in the townships as you know Mr Sibaya.  I want to put it to you that she would not forget that incident.  She has consistently denied that someone like you ever came to her door or any other person came to her door on that date at that time.

MR SIBAYA: Listen Ma'am, that lady opened the door, she did not let me in, I just told her or asked her the question.  I then left because it was late.  She would never admit that she remembers that because this is a huge case now.  I will not recognise her.

INTERPRETERS: Would the witness repeat the last sentence please.

MR SIBAYA: I would also not admit that such a person had knocked on my door myself, I would not admit it because I would be putting myself in trouble, I would also deny it.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are not that kind of person, because when you saw the trouble that night you promptly decided to go to the police.

MR SIBAYA: I will never deny the truth Sir if there is danger attached to it.

MS QUNTA: Mr Chairman I am about to finish with the cross-examination.  I have a few more questions to ask the witness.  It shouldn't take longer than ten minutes but I would like to ask for an adjournment for no more than 15 minutes or so.  Unless perhaps to avoid wasting the Committee's time, I appreciate that we need to get through it, Advocate Arendse may have some questions, but I am not in a position to proceed presently.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn now for 15 minutes.

MS QUNTA: Thank you.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman I need to place something on record on instructions of the Investigating Unit regarding the reference to Mr Killian.

CHAIRPERSON: Should we not wait until the cross-examination is finished?

MR PRIOR: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes do carry on Miss Qunta.

MR SIBAYA: (s.u.o.)

MS QUNTA: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sibaya I would like to find out from you how long you've been working where you are working at present, how long have you been employed there?

MR SIBAYA: This is my second year.

MS QUNTA: And prior to that where did you work?

MR SIBAYA: I was working in Hillwood.

MS QUNTA: Where is that?

MR SIBAYA: Claremont.

MS QUNTA: And what were you doing?

MR SIBAYA: I was a garden boy.

MS QUNTA: You were a gardener?

MR SIBAYA: Ja.

MS QUNTA: And for how long did you work at Hillwood Mr Sibaya?

MR SIBAYA: A very long time.

MS QUNTA: How long in years?

MR SIBAYA: More than ten years.

MS QUNTA: More than ten years.  How much did you earn when you were working at Hillwood?

MR SIBAYA: I started at a very low rate but now I get about a R1 000.

MS QUNTA: No I need to know how much you earned when you were working at Hillwood, not where you are working now.

MR SIBAYA: I started at about R250 and then it goes up now and again.

MS QUNTA: Per month, 250 per month?

MR SIBAYA: Yes a long time ago when I worked.

MS QUNTA: At Hillwood.  Now you earned 250 per month at Hillwood, Claremont, is that correct?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

MS QUNTA: For about ten years?

MR SIBAYA: No I would get an increment now and again.

MS QUNTA: Okay now when you left Hillwood how much did you earn?

MR SIBAYA: I worked in a lot of places after Hillwood.

MS QUNTA: No I want on the average how much did you earn during that period, say the last ten years, what was your average income per month?

MR SIBAYA: Where, in Hillwood?

MS QUNTA: Wherever you worked as a gardener.

MR SIBAYA: It is now worth R50 a day to work as a gardener.

MS QUNTA: No I want you to listen to the question Mr Sibaya.  What I am asking you is, in the last ten years you say you worked at Hillwood and then you said you worked at a number of places, now what, on the average, did you get paid per month, not per day, per month?

MR SIBAYA: You get paid R50 per day, they don't pay you monthly.

MS QUNTA: So that's what, that's about ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Being casual ...(intervention)

MS QUNTA: So that's about R1000 a month, okay?

MR SIBAYA: Yes correct.

MS QUNTA: We'll take that as a - ja.  And now in the last two years where you have been at this place where you work presently how much did you get there per month?

MR SIBAYA: Where I am working now?

MS QUNTA: Yes.

MR SIBAYA: I get paid weekly now, from R200 to R250 a week.

MS QUNTA: Okay.  And do you have any other source of income besides the wages that you get from being a gardener?

MR SIBAYA: I got a pension from Hillwood, I get R400 a month.

MS QUNTA: Okay.  That's about R1 200 per month that you get, is that correct Mr Sibaya, you say about R1 200?

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

MS QUNTA: Okay.  Besides the pension do you have any other source of income perhaps from your children or whatever?

MR SIBAYA: No.

MS QUNTA: What is your ID number Mr Sibaya, do you have your ID number on you?

MR SIBAYA: I don't have it with me now.

MS QUNTA: Do you know it from your head?

MR SIBAYA: No I don't know it.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya I am tempted to say that a registration number stays in your head but your own ID which is so important and integral to your life you can't keep in your head.  Perhaps your memory is not as good as you would like us to believe.  But if I showed you your ID would you recognise it?

MR SIBAYA: If you show me my ID number or my ID?

MS QUNTA: Your ID number.

MR SIBAYA: I could guess and if you told me or showed me the number I would remember.

MS QUNTA: Can you read numbers Mr Sibaya?

MR SIBAYA: Yes I am able to read numbers.