Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I've made an entry in my diary and I've just coincidentally seen it now, it's on page 8.  At 9 o'clock in the morning I started taking a statement concerning the PEBCO incident and it finished at 11H30.

MR LAMEY: I am on page 8 and I'm looking at what you're saying, it's under Tuesday the 23rd of April '96.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Go to Wednesday in the middle of the page, Wednesday the 24th, 9 in the morning.

MR LAMEY: Was that the first consultation you had with him concerning the PEBCO 3 incident?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's when I started taking the statement.

MR LAMEY: Was he in the office?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, he was in the office.

MR BOOYENS: Before that, before the 23rd, did you consult with him concerning the PEBCO 3 incident?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I had several consultations with him.

MR LAMEY: How many consultations would you say?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I cannot remember exactly but I'd say more than four times and that's now including the day in the aeroplane when we discussed the issue.

MR LAMEY: It wasn't concerning other incidents which you were interested in?  You're not referring to other consultations, all the other times also referred to the PEBCO 3?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, I'm specifically referring to the PEBCO 3 incidents.

MR LAMEY: Did you at any stage before the 23rd of April, did you get a written statement, did you take down a written statement whilst you were consulting with him?   Did you take down any statement?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No.

MR LAMEY: It was only discussions?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, it was only discussions.

MR LAMEY: Those notes you made, did you use to put the statement together?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, I had no notes, I used my memory and I spoke to him.

MR LAMEY: You just talked?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, we just talked.

MR LAMEY: Because just now I thought that you took down notes, minutes?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: The minutes that I'm referring to was in front of the Commission which was in it's written form and the typed bit was signed.

MR LAMEY: So you took a written statement which was typed afterwards, was this on the 23rd of April?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, the 24th.

MR LAMEY: The 24th.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: And also the 26th I made him sign the statement.

MR LAMEY: But the written statement, did he not sign the written statement?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: He did not sign the written statement, the statement was typed from that and that is what he signed.

MR LAMEY: And you typed it on the computer?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I didn't type it myself, I cannot type, someone typed it for me.

MR LAMEY: So someone else typed it looking at your handwriting?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Are there any reasons why he could not sign the statement the day he was in the office?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: If I remember correctly there was no typist available to type the statement at that stage.

MR LAMEY: But couldn't he sign the written statement and then you could have had it typed later?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, I preferred to give him a typed statement which he had to sign.  I'd also just like to point out to the Commission that after the taking down of the statement with Koole, Mogoai's statement was taken down by somebody else and then we discussed it.  	At that stage it was quite evident that Mogoai and Koole differed from each other.  I left his statement as it was even though it differed from Mogoai's.

MR LAMEY: And all the other times you consulted with him, you made him come to the office?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: At times I was at his home.

MR LAMEY: Did Koole also make other statements concerning other incidents?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, he also made statements concerning other events and we also spoke about that.

MR LAMEY: Mr de Lange, you say that at a specific stage when his amnesty statement - am I correct in saying that there was na initial amnesty statement with which he was helped by your office, the office of the Attorney General?  ...[transcriber's own translation]

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, I don't know if a statement was prepared, an appeal was prepared and he had to sign certain things but I wasn't involved in the putting together of that, I think Advocate du Toit had a hand in that.

MR LAMEY: I also want to show you a document - Mr Chairman, I'll make copies of that available in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: In the meantime copies from Superintendent de Lange's diary will be Exhibits U1 and U2.  The first set of pages will be U1 and the one page, being page 12 from his diary will be U2.
	And what is this document that you are showing us or showing the witness?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, it is the initial amnesty form application dated the 9th of December 1996, I'll make copies available.  I suppose that Mr Brink also does have a copy of that.  I'll make copies available in due course.
	Mr de Lange I'd just like to ask you, can you just look at that document?  With regards to that document, is it with regards to that document that the other members, for example "Slang", was sent to Koole's house?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: To have it signed?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, for Koole to sign it.

MR LAMEY: Just keep the document with you for a while.  You were not there then?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I was not present when Koole signed the document.

MR LAMEY: This document refers to the details and the questions asked when the statement was taken down in the office of the Attorney General?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: Can you just look at the last page?  Is that your signature that appears there as Commissioner of Commissioner of oaths?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: What's the date?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: 9th of December '96.

MR LAMEY: This document is also the form of a affidavit?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: Mr Koole was not there when you took the oath?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, when I took the oath he was not there.

MR LAMEY: Why were those procedures followed?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Mr Mangale assured me that he swore to the truth of the interpretation.

MR LAMEY: But if you were not there when the amnesty statement was signed in the presence of Koole then the oath of that document is not valid because you didn't take his oath as Commissioner of Oaths.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: In this case I did not take it personally.

MR LAMEY: So you were not there.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I was not there.

MR LAMEY: Was there any reason for that, why he could not do it in your presence?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I'll tell what I think happened, if I can think back.  I had a whole lot of these applications similar to these and I signed these things under the understanding that I would get to all these people and it could have ended up inbetween these that I didn't personally sign it, or that I personally signed it where I wasn't - where I signed it were I wasn't personally present.

ADV DE JAGER: But Mr de Lange you've been in the police force for a long time haven't you?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And you know that that's not the way to take an oath.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: That amnesty statement incorporates very important details, his affidavit as made by the Attorney General so it can only refer to the statement which you took a while before.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It does refer to that statement that I took.

MR LAMEY: If we suppose that when Mr Koole received that document, that he realised that there were aspects in his police statement which he would want to improve and you were not there, would that not have created a problem?