Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-14

UNKNOWN: Thank you, you've answered the question.  When you went to the hotel, was that during the day?  That was now to go and reconnoitre, to see where your target is or what the target is, was that during the daytime?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was during the day.  I went with comrade Nxeba and then he went for the second time inside the hotel but it was during the day when we both went there.

UNKNOWN: And your mission was sanctioned by the Director of Operations, is that right, that was Leklapa Mpashlele?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We were given direct orders by comrade Xomiso, he then informed us that he got the orders from comrade Mpashlela.  He said that these orders came from the Director of Operations.

UNKNOWN: When did that take place, can you maybe cast your mind back and give us an idea when those instructions were received?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: At the beginning of 1993.

UNKNOWN: And where you, were you in Umtata, Butterworth, where were you?  What part of the country were you when you got these orders?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: In Umtata.

UNKNOWN: And comrade Xomiso, where is he today?  Is he still alive?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Apparently he passed away.

UNKNOWN: Do you know when he passed away?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: In 1997, I'm not sure of the particular dates.

UNKNOWN: Were you part of any regiment or detachment - we heard during this session that there was a thing known as the Lembede Regiment and the Xude Regiment, were you part of any detachment or regiment of APLA?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No.

UNKNOWN: Were you just a squad that was sent into an area to do an operation and once you'd done that operation you had to get out as quickly as possible?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was a special operation done by special units.  I was a commander of that specific unit at that time, I was elected as a commander.  I don't know whether you are clear.

UNKNOWN: Was that your first operation that you led that you were the commander of?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct.

UNKNOWN: And before that, before March 1993, had you been involved in any other operation?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No.

UNKNOWN: So would you agree that you had very, very, - well, you had no experience in leading operations at all?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't agree with you Sir for specific reasons.  We have military classes, political classes.  Before a comrade is sent to an operation you first were educated accordingly.  You go and put into practise something that you have learnt already.  I had theoretical experience.

UNKNOWN: Yes, thank you.  And Mr Kupani Diamoneng, had he been involved in any other operation to you knowledge, before the Yellowwoods matter?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know because it was the first time I worked with him in that particular operation, I don't know of any prior operations.

UNKNOWN: Would it be correct to say that, or to understand from you that all the people involved in this operation on Yellowwoods Hotel never discussed their past experiences or past operations with each other?  I that correct?  Or did you discuss with each other operations that you'd been on or the training that you'd received, anything like that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all, we were a guerilla army, it's not important to discuss or tell my comrade about operations I was involved in and visa versa.  What would be important then would be the operation at hand.  We never discussed anybody's experiences, it would create problems.  We just had to focus on what we had to do.  We would end up looking down at each other perhaps if we looked at each other's experience.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  So from that you didn't know - let me rephrase it, you were expecting, well the target you were informed about was the hotel where you were informed military personnel were in attendance or frequented, is that correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Pleas repeat the question Sir.

UNKNOWN: Your target was the hotel where you say military personnel - that was your information, that used to attend - in other words, members of the security forces attended that hotel and that was your target?  The personnel, the military personnel or security forces that attending there or frequented that place, those people were your target, is that right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The people that chose the target are members of the high command of APLA.  We were voluntary soldiers, we had to make sure that we carry out the operation, that was on our shoulders.  We would go to a target place that had already been selected by the APLA High Command.

UNKNOWN: I must ask you this question because this really springs to mind, if we look at the Heidelberg matter - I know those facts aren't strictly relevant here, but in that matter your evidence was or the evidence was that the targets were left to the commanders on the ground to decide.  Do you remember that evidence been given during the Heidelberg matter?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think Mr Prior is not correct when he put it that way, I was in the Heidelberg Tavern.  No, he will be misleading the applicant if he puts that it was left.  If my memory serves me well Mr Chairman, Luyanda Gqomfa made it that he was the only one who knew about the target from when he left from Umtata.  The others were told during the attack, so it was selected even before they left Umtata.

UNKNOWN: I simply want to draw - if there is a distinction, I want to draw that distinction.  My recollection - and Mr Chairman, you can correct me.  In the Heidelberg matter APLA said that the policy at that stage, they would leave the identification of the targets up to the local commanders.
	I simply want to ask this witness if he remembers that being said and if he does remember why does there seem to be a difference between yellowwoods hotel and the policy adopted later?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I still have a problem with that.  If the Committee has a problem, I don't have a problem, I can fetch the affidavit of Luyanda Gqomfa.  That is not true what is being said by Mr Prior.  He still in the affidavit of Luyanda Gqomfa, that was not the position.  If he is talking about APLA then I would understand maybe the submissions of APLA but if he's talking about the Heidelberg incident during the amnesty hearing, it was clear that he was given an order in Umtata.

UNKNOWN: Alright, I'll leave that Mr Chairman.
	Thank you, I won't pursue it.
	Now on this reconnaissance that you went on, what did you do at the hotel?  What did you do, did you go into the hotel, did you walk around it, what did you do?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The question of reconnaissance, as I knew that Nxeba knew the Eastern Cape well, we went to the hotel with Nxeba during the day, Nxeba and I.  We went to look at the distance especially and entrances, how many entrances there were into the hotel, the different roots and their disadvantages, these are the things that we looked at.  We did not go inside the hotel.

UNKNOWN: On the basis of that reconnaissance you decided that the target could be attacked, is that right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We concluded that we should go again and enter the hotel to find out how it is inside.

UNKNOWN: When did you do that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The second reconnaissance.  I'm not sure but Nxeba is the one who went inside the hotel, he went on his own.

UNKNOWN: Where were you?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We were staying in Mdantsane, I was in Mdantsane.

UNKNOWN: Did he report back to you, Nxeba, about the second reconnaissance?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, he did.

UNKNOWN: Tell me Mr Madasi, do you accept that apart from your information that members of the security forces attended that hotel, was it also your information that civilian people unconnected to the security forces also attended the hotel or patronised the hotel? ...[intervention]