Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

ADV FORD: You then telephoned, or did you telephone or did you contact by radio, when you arrived at Louis le Grange you telephoned Colonel Roelofse, is that right?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: He was your Commanding Officer?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Presumably you would have to report to him all operations in which you had been involved?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Did you report to him what had happened?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, I did report to him what had happened.

ADV FORD: That this was an operation in which your colleagues had been killed by their own men?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, I did not tell him that.

ADV FORD: Why not?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Captain Nieuwoudt told me that I shouldn't mention anything about this matter.

ADV FORD: Mr Nieuwoudt was not your Commanding Officer, was he?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, he wasn't.

ADV FORD: You were aware that you were now implicated in a serious crime?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And you still didn't see fit to convey this to your Commanding Officer?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV FORD: Didn't you trust him?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I did trust him.

ADV FORD: If you were to, you were aware that he had, or did I understand you correctly that he had agreed to you being available for Mr Nieuwoudt?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV FORD: He didn't agree to that?  My apologies.  Mr Van Wyk, the Investigating Officer, did you speak, you went to pick him up as well?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Colonel Roelofse picked me up and we then went to pick up Van Wyk.

ADV FORD: Were you aware that he was going to be the Investigating Officer at that stage?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV FORD: Do you know why he was picked up?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV FORD: Your evidence is then that you in no way suggested to or told either Mr Roelofse or Mr Van Wyk of the true facts surrounding this incident?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I told them nothing.  No, I didn't tell them anything.

ADV FORD: You were subsequently charged with involvement in the very least in this bombing?  This was always a possibility was it not?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Did you believe you acted improperly in being involved at all?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, I do believe that.

ADV FORD: I am not asking you about now, then, at the time, did you believe what you did, you ought to have done, you should have done?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: They asked me to do it and I did it.  That is why I believed that what I had done, was right.

ADV FORD: If you had been asked to drive that motor vehicle there, knowing that four of your colleagues were to be blown up, would you have done it?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I don't know.  It is a very difficult decision to make.

ADV FORD: But you didn't hesitate once you knew that they had been blown up, to conceal the relevant evidence surrounding their deaths?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, I think there is a difference between driving the vehicle beforehand and to take that risk and what happens afterwards.

ADV FORD: You made a statement to the Investigating Officer?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: In which once again, you did not tell the truth?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Did you and Mr Nieuwoudt discuss at all what story was to be told?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Were you aware that members of the Security Branch were executing people?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: There were many rumours and stories in that connection, yes.

ADV FORD: You were not involved in any such operations, other than this one?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Where policemen were involved?

ADV FORD: Anyone, where persons, citizens were executed, killed by members of the Security Forces?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I was involved.

ADV FORD: And did you believe it justified?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Why did you believe it justified?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: We were trying to ensure our survival.

ADV FORD: Did you, when you were required to participate in such operations, did you do it without question or did you ascertain for yourself that the actions you were undertaking, were justified?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Certain instructions and orders were given to me, and I complied with those.

ADV FORD: You never questioned?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV FORD: Did you have, you knew very well, you knew Mr Mgoduka, Mr Faku, Mr Mapipa, Mr Jack, you knew those persons?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Had they given you any problems?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, not as far as I am aware.

ADV FORD: Did you have any reason to doubt their loyalty?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I didn't know what they were busy doing or what they were involved in, I couldn't say.  No, I couldn't.

ADV FORD: And did you accept what Mr Nieuwoudt told you without question?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

ADV FORD: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman very briefly.  Mr Lotz, I am not quite sure I understand your application.  Your evidence is that you took no part in the planning of the death of these four people.

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

MR BRINK: That you had no part in any conspiracy to kill them?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

MR BRINK: That all you did on the evening in question was to follow orders by taking this motor car to Motherwell, which car, unbeknown to you, was full of explosives?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And then you followed orders to leave the car there, take a kombi and go back to Louis le Grange?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And what you did thereafter concealing the truth, and that sort of thing, might be a different aspect, but you are applying for amnesty for the death of these people.

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: According to my legal representative, we discussed it and he said to put the whole, full picture on the table, I should apply for amnesty in this connection.

MR BRINK: But at no stage have you ever been guilty of having killed them or plotting to kill them?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: .

ADV DE JAGER: But you did actively conceal these acts?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And in so doing you committed the offence of obstructing the course of justice?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: But you are not applying for amnesty in that connection?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is why I am applying for amnesty.

ADV DE JAGER: I think you might have to take this up with your legal representative again, because as far as I can see, that does not appear from your application.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, maybe you operated on a principle that you can ask for more, if you can ask for more, you can always ask for less, but you can just apply your mind to that and then present proposals or amendments if any.

ADV BOOYENS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then give them to us, even if it is tomorrow I think.

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, yes, I think the way it was seen initially was that he was applying as an accessary after the fact in all probability, because he was a policeman, he had a duty to disclose.
	And I agree that it does seem that included, I think the way it was seen in fact it was not so much defeating the ends of justice, but being an accessory after the fact, in other words being an accessory after the fact in the sense that he defeated the ends of justice not to do his job.  But I would ask for an amendment in that regard, and let you have something in writing by tomorrow.