Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MS MOROKA: Sergeant Potgieter, I want to ask you questions only in relation to the gate at the basement of Lancet Hall.

J M S POTGIETER: Okay.

MS MOROKA: You do have your evidence there infront of you?

J M S POTGIETER: Ja, I've got it here.

MS MOROKA: You were asked a question by Mr Berger at the inquest, you described how you forced open the door, is that correct?  You then indicated that it opened - that you broke the hydraulic mechanism.

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MS MOROKA: And you were able - the door opened - I mean the gates opened only for a small space ...

J M S POTGIETER: Correct.

MS MOROKA: That enabled you to go through?

J M S POTGIETER: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: You then also further indicated that you don't know what happened to that gate thereafter.

J M S POTGIETER: No, I don't know what happened to the gate.

MS MOROKA: You cannot say whether the gate - people were able to go in and out of - using their ...(indistinct) in and out of the gate?

J M S POTGIETER: No I wouldn't be able to tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair.  Sergeant with reference to the scene as you found it when you moved around Shell House to look for your colleagues, do you still have any picture in your memory regarding where the injured and those who had died were positioned in relation to the block between De Villiers and Plein Streets?

J M S POTGIETER: The only picture that I still have is that when I came around the corner there was a person with his back against the pillar and his ankle had been shot off, that's the picture that I have in my mind.

MR DORFLING: Do you have any idea of what the furthest was that a deceased or injured person had been lying down that block in the direction of King George and De Villiers Streets?

J M S POTGIETER: Approximately 10 paces from the shop corners until King George Street.

MR DORFLING: In a southern direction?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Do you have any impressions of whether or not you noticed any weapons, be it firearms or traditional weapons?

J M S POTGIETER: All that I saw was basically spears, corpses and shields, I didn't see any firearms.

MR DORFLING: Sergeant, I just want to ensure at which specific point in time you left the scene around Shell House, could you assist us in that relation, you were standing behind the guards?

J M S POTGIETER: I stood behind the guards ...

MR DORFLING: You heard the shots?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Could you tell us how far you could see before you moved in an eastern direction down Plein Street?

J M S POTGIETER: As soon as the shots began to subside, when it was no longer that intense shooting, I went around.

MR DORFLING: At that stage, was there still any gunfire when you started running?

J M S POTGIETER: I don't - I think so, it began to subside.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been questioned about whether you saw this gentleman called Mr von Eggedy at the scene.

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that you didn't see him?

J M S POTGIETER: No I didn't see him.

CHAIRPERSON: What could be the reason why you didn't see him if he was in fact there, was it because there was too much of a crowd that blocked your view?

J M S POTGIETER: There was a great number of people there and it would have been very easy for him to become lost among all those people if he was indeed there.  However I didn't see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other reason why you may not have seen him besides the possibility that the crowd was too big?

J M S POTGIETER: No, not as I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that your own attention was not focused all the time there, and you were concerned about your own safety?

J M S POTGIETER: I was concerned about my own safety when the man pressed the pistol against my chest, and that's the only time that I was really afraid for my own safety.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that must have given you some idea as to what might happen to you.

J M S POTGIETER: Yes to me personally when the weapon was pressed against my chest.

CHAIRPERSON: And did that not possibly put you in a frame of mind where you were very concerned about your own safety as to what might happen?

J M S POTGIETER: What could happen, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And your attention then was, if I may use the word "attention", was not on the scene all the time because you were a very worried man as to what might happen to you.

J M S POTGIETER: I was watching them all from where I was standing at the back, and the entire scene was infront of my eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you yourself armed?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And anybody who saw you would see that you had an arm - that you had a gun in your hand?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, if they had seen me from affront.

CHAIRPERSON: And your colleagues, were they also armed?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Everybody could see that they had guns in their hands?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes, they should have been able to see that.

CHAIRPERSON: If any of them used their guns, would you have known?

J M S POTGIETER: No, not at Shell House, none of us fired any shots.

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't have known?

J M S POTGIETER: I would have known, I know that Sergeant van Reenen fired gas.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear gunshots without knowing where they came from?

J M S POTGIETER: In the beginning before the gross(?) shooting began, yes, from a western direction in Plein Street, but we didn't know specifically where the shots were being fired from.

CHAIRPERSON: And later during that morning, did you not hear gunshots ...

J M S POTGIETER: At which point?

CHAIRPERSON: Without knowing where they came from?

J M S POTGIETER: No, just earlier that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: The time you went around Shell House to see whether you could help your friends, at that stage did you hear any gunshots?

J M S POTGIETER: I can't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Just hold on.

MR BERGER: Just one other question, in the same sort of vein, that was the evidence of this person with the AK47 who was shooting outside the shop that Mr Da Silva spoke about ...

J M S POTGIETER: Yes?

MR BERGER: I just want to know if there was any reason that you can offer us why you didn't see that happen?

J M S POTGIETER: No, I can't give you any reason, I didn't see it.  It was in the street, in King George Street.  There is no reason why I shouldn't have seen him.

MR BERGER: Okay, that was really the point I was more interested in, if there was - if it did happen, you surely would have seen it?

J M S POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Thanks.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman, with your leave there's one aspect I omitted.  Looking at the statement again, specifically paragraph 7, with your permission, may I just ask the witness about it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may.

MR DORFLING: Sergeant I want to refer you specifically to paragraph 7 of your affidavit on page 14 of Exhibit E, the person with the AK47 to whom you are referring, you described his clothing in the final sentence of paragraph 7, you said he was wearing a white bulletproof jacket, do you confirm that?

J M S POTGIETER: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thanks very much you are excused.

J M S POTGIETER: Thanks.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman with your leave may I ask for a very short adjournment, I would just like to discuss something with my colleagues who are appearing on behalf of the objectors before we call our next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: Certainly not Mr Chairman.]
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION