Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR SKWEYIYA: And what about the other two?  Were they in fact in employment as policemen, or not?

WITNESS:   David Tshikalanga, yes.  The three of them, two policemen and Brian Ngulungwa, who was an askari and officially made a policeman.

MR SKWEYIYA: At what stage?  Before or after the death of Mxenge?

WITNESS:   One will have to check their record of appointment, but I accept that by that time they were officially already policemen, because I was putting the structures together for the year preceding August 1981.  With other words, from August 1980 to August 1981.

MR SKWEYIYA: Mr Coetzee, it's important.  I would like you

MR SKWEYIYA: /between now

MR SKWEYIYA: between now and argument is presented to find out

MR SKWEYIYA: precisely what the status of these persons was.

WITNESS:   As I say I can for sure say Almond Nofomela was a policeman, constable.  David Tshikalanga was for sure sworn in as a student constable, with other words a full policeman, and on - I might - 99% sure say Brian Ngulungwa was also a sworn-in policeman by that time, but not a person that had full police training.  Or, say, any police training for that matter.

MR SKWEYIYA: Mr Chairman, thank you.  That's all.

MR SKWEYIYA: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SKWEYIYA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination flowing out of that?

MR MARAIS: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, I also omitted yesterday to hand up the documents which I referred to in the evidence of Mr Coetzee.  If I could possibly do so at this stage.  Mr Chairman, the first document is the telephone directory of the Security Headquarters in 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: This will be annexure - exhibit rather - is it Exhibit B?

MR MSHE: That will be A, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit A.
SECURITY POLICE TELEPHONE DIRECTORY HANDED UP AS EXHIBIT A

MR JANSEN: The second document, Mr Chairman, was the excerpt from Harms Commission evidence when the directive of General Coetzee dated 11 September 1981 was read into the record at that stage.  As I stated we do not have a complete copy of the Harms Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Just the excerpt.

MR JANSEN: Yes, and we will obviously try - we will
	/endeavour
endeavour to to some extent possibly get a more first-hand
evidence, possibly the annexure itself.  Mr Chairman ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The excerpt will be B, Exhibit B.
EXCERPT FROM HARMS COMMISSION EVIDENCE HANDED UP AS EXHIBIT B

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, I also have another document which was handed in at the Harms Commission as Exhibit B137 of the Commission.  It was not led in evidence with Mr Coetzee as he has no personal knowledge of this document, but it does relate to - or the document is an affidavit made by Mr Alfred Mzo, the present Minister of Foreign Affairs, who was then still in exile working for the ANC, relating to the ANC's knowledge of Mr Mxenge, and precisely what the relationship between Mr Mxenge and the ANC was, and that for purposes of the Harms Commission the affidavit was filed, amongst other things, to say that the ANC at no stage was aware of any misappropriation of the funds, etcetera.  I think it proper - this is a public document, in the sense that it was presented to the Harms Commission and part of that evidence.  I think it proper that it be placed before you as well.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

MR JANSEN: The date is the 1st of June 1990, and it's signed at Lusaka.

CHAIRPERSON: This will be handed in as Exhibit C
AFFIDAVIT OF ALFRED MZO HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT C

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, the other document which I in the course of the evidence today considered that may possibly - or should be handed to the Committee, is an affidavit by Mr Joe Mamasela.  His official names are 
	/actually
actually Joseph Sepho Mamasela.  An affidavit made to the
Attorney-General for purposes of the criminal trial which is pending in the Mxenge matter.  What - I initially didn't think of handing this up, but, Mr Chairman, it does give again another - it certainly corroborates the fact that the incident itself did take place, and it does give again another version of what happened there that day.  Unfortunately I don't have copies of this.  I only have the one copy in my possession presently, so I would like to hand it up at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we'll consider it when you hand it in, because his name has been mentioned several times in the course of these proceedings, and it might be necessary for him to be called to either corroborate or refute what is being said about him.

MR JANSEN: Yes, I accept that, Mr Chairman.  Then we could possibly take the matter up at a later stage.  I know that there's some controversy around the calling of Mr Mamasela.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the controversy was that we were invited in another application to subpoena him, we as a Committee, and we decided that a case was not made out for us to subpoena him at that stage.

MR JANSEN: Yes.  If I understand it, as I stated, Mr Chairman, I certainly don't regard it as crucial to the applications before you, these three - well, Mr Coetzee's application.  It is just that the actual details concerning the Mxenge incident has been canvassed to some details, and there are certain obvious discrepancies - discrepancies which were known, which have been a matter of public record, and I thought that possibly in that
	/sense it
sense it may - it may serve some purpose handing up this
affidavit, at least then just to illustrate how the other person that was involved in the incident clearly has that same problem of recollecting and reconstructing the incident in a completely different way, but corroborating on certain essential elements thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Mshe, where do we proceed from here?

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, if my learned friend is not re-examining may the witness be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MSHE: Be excused if he is not.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand you have no re-examination of Mr Coetzee, is that correct.

MR MARAIS: I have none.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Coetzee, you are excused.

WITNESS:   Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, with your permission I would deem it apposite for an adjournment until tomorrow.  We have now come to the end of the Mxenge incident.  I was informed by my learned colleagues here, and they will confirm that, that they are not calling any of the Mxenge family to take the stand, which then wraps up the Mxenge incident for this Committee, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Skweyiya, that is correct?  You are not proposing to call any witnesses on behalf of the family?

MR SKWEYIYA: I confirm that, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: Then in that respect then, Mr Chairman, I would ask that we adjourn until tomorrow, and tomorrow we will start in the morning with the Khondile matter.
/MR DE JAGER

MR DE JAGER: Mr Mshe, we're required to make a finding
about victims.  Would you then kindly see that we've got information about the victims so that at the end we could make a recommendation?

MR MSHE: That will be done, Sir.

MR DE JAGER: The necessary forms to be completed, and perhaps ... (incomplete)

MR MSHE: That will be done, Sir.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  The Committee stands adjourned now until 9.30 tomorrow morning.
PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  TO  1996/11/07
/PROCEEDINGS
PROCEEDINGS  RESUMED  ON  1996/11/07
APPEARANCES AS BEFORE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe?

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we are going to start today not with the Khondile matter, but with the Joe Pillay matter, and I will hand over to my learned friend in that regard.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I refer then to the application in respect of the abduction and assault of Mr Pillay.  It's dealt with in the schedule to the application in 10, which starts on page 19 of the schedule.

CHAIRPERSON: Application by Mr Coetzee?

MR JANSEN: Yes.  Sorry, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: Page 23.