Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-16

JUDGE WILSON: The witness has been duly sworn.

W O THOABALA: (Duly sworn, states).

ADV TSHONGWENI: With your permission, M'Lord, I would like to bring to the attention of the Committee that in terms of the application by the applicant, page 2, this is for the purposes of the record, M'Lord, paragraph 9(a)(I), which was the same problem with ...

JUDGE WILSON: But I thought we had already dealt with that, and we agreed that the same amendment would be made to both applications.

ADV TSHONGWENI: As it pleases your Lordship.

ADV TSHONGWENI: Please state your full name and surname, please?

W O THOABALA: (Speaker's mike is not on).

ADV TSHONGWENI: How old are you?

W O THOABALA: I am 34 years old.

ADV TSHONGWENI: Where were you born?

W O THOABALA: I was born in Tamhahole, Parys.

ADV TSHONGWENI: How long did you live there?

W O THOABALA: I was born there, I stayed there until I was arrested.

ADV TSHONGWENI: What schools did you attend and up to what standard?

W O THOABALA: I went to Lumbethe Primary School, that is where I started and I went to Mmabatho and I did Std 5.

ADV TSHONGWENI: At that stage were you a member of any political organisation?

W O THOABALA: I was a member of Tamahole Student Organisation.

ADV TSHONGWENI: Any other organisations that you belonged to thereafter?

W O THOABALA: In 1983 I joined the UDF, United Democratic Front and Release Mandela Campaign until I left the country and joined the RMC.

ADV TSHONGWENI: What is RMC?

W O THOABALA: RMC, Release Mandela Campaign. I joined RMC and UDF in 1983 and I was arrested and released and then in 1986 I left the country to Zimbabwe for a crash course. I came back in the same year.  When I came back I stayed in Sebokeng.  I stayed in Sebokeng, East Rand and Vosloorus, and I went back to Tamahole.  Just some time in Tamahole a comrade of mine was killed and I went to Johannesburg.  In 1988 I skipped the country for Lusaka.  From Lusaka I went to Uganda for a course at Dr Nkabinde Training Centre and I was deployed to the camp as a tailor and in 1991 I left the camp, I went to town in Kampala where I went to study for a personnel management certificate, which lasted six months, and I asked amnesty to be allowed to come to the country.  In 1992, on the 22nd of April I was given amnesty and I was repatriated and I came back to the country.
	On my arrival here, that is when I arrived at Jan Smuts Airport, I met one of the comrades I left behind in this country, and I asked him about Benjamin Cholota, that is Benjie. I asked him whether he was still around, and he told me yes, he was working around Johannesburg, and he gave me his telephone numbers and while at the airport I called him. I couldn't find him but I left the message.

ADV TSHONGWENI: With your permission, Mr Chairman, I beg to submit part of the document which is a list of ANC members who were repatriated at that time.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, it is not disputed.

ADV TSHONGWENI: Thank you, Mr Commissioner.   Mr Thoabala, you can continue. Yes?

W O THOABALA: I called Benjamin Cholota at the attorneys' offices. He was not present and I left a message to let him know that I have arrived.  And I left for my home. I stayed a week and I received a call from Benjamin to come down to Johannesburg.  I went to Benjamin on a Wednesday and we sat and we talked. He told me about this self-defence unit that was formed around Tamahole.  And we discussed and we realised - as we were discussing, we said as the youth needed arms, so we had to go out and disarm the enemy, and we made an arrangement to meet on Friday.  On Thursday I went back to Tamahole.
	Friday came.  At about six o'clock in the afternoon, Benjamin Cholota arrived at home and I went to see him.  He was washing himself and he sent someone to buy a drink so that while he is busy washing himself, I should drink something. After that we went to Mr Skosana's house and we sat down.  We discussed with some of the comrades. It was a welcome party for myself, because I was from exile.  I didn't stay long with them to enjoy the party, because we had a mission to disarm the enemy.  They stopped me.  They said please do not go.  
	The other members of the defence unit were at the forefront, because the people who were with us didn't want us to leave.  We said they should leave, we will follow, we will follow after. Then we escaped from the comrades to join the rest of the group.
	The first place we went to was at Leratong, it is a tavern.  We found comrades there and they told us they had been inside already and they didn't find anybody.  We left and we went to BJ, that is Black Joint. It is a tavern also, belonging to Sister Mosake. 
	When I entered the tavern I met the people I left in the country when I went to exile.  They were happy. They were asking me how it was and I explained to them. At that moment there was a time where I talked to the owner of the tavern and she called her daughter to come and talk to me.  She showed me Benjamin, and I left the comrades and I went to Benjamin. I asked Benjamin what was happening. Instead of answering me, he left for the door, and Phule Alusi approached and Benjie grabbed him and I pulled him back.  We fell on the ground. I stood up very quickly and I kicked him and I searched him and I realised he was not armed, and we went outside the tavern on the stoep. I gripped him and he fell. I took stones, I wanted to hit him with stones.  One of these girls working at the tavern, Sono, stopped me.  As she stopped me he escaped and he ran away and I chased him with other comrades.  	
	Then we went back.  We couldn't catch him.  When we got back to the yard, there were many fights going on and a person shouted at me, he said here's the other one, and when I went to see, it was a girl Lesi, and she was fighting with another comrade Benjamin, when I arrived at the scene Benjamin was hitting the deceased with a stone on the chest and I said let us go because our mission is not successful, it is better to leave.  That is when we left and we went to Mamma Moloi's place and she washed Benjie's blood and she stopped the blood that was - she stopped the bleeding, and they didn't allow us to leave because they thought we were going to continue fighting.
	At about 09:10 in the morning we left.  I had to pass Benjamin Cholota's place.  His father was standing at the gate and he called us and we went to him, and he asked us what did we do, because the police were looking for us.  What I said to him, was we fought and he said no, you should know the police were here looking for you, they were looking for you for murder, you have shot a person.  And we were surprised how we shot a person because we didn't have a firearm in our possession, and we didn't even have any knobkierie in our possession, and I was surprised that the police were looking for us for murder.  Benjamin's father said you should stay and wait for the police.  We stayed there until one o'clock waiting for the police but they didn't come.  
	We decided to leave and see one of our comrades.   From his place we were actually going to the deceased's family to discuss the incident that took place the previous day and the police approached, they produced their guns and they said hands-up and they arrested me.  They asked me where Benjamin was. I pointed Benjamin and they arrested him too.

ADV TSHONGWENI: Did you at any stage receive instructions from anyone, that is to go and search people in the shebeen?

W O THOABALA: It is true, the commander of the defence unit, Benjamin Cholota gave an instruction.

ADV TSHONGWENI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV TSHONGWENI

JUDGE WILSON: Questions?

MS THABETHA: What were your intentions of going to taverns with the comrades?