Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

JUDGE WILSON: On whose behalf was Botha acting did you think?

EUGENE MARAIS: Sir, at that night I did not question Mr Botha whether this was under the authority of the AWB, the Orde Boerevolk, the CP or whatever.  I took it on authority from him as a person being the Kommandant of the AWB and also the cell leader of the OB at that specific stage.

JUDGE WILSON: Well what did you think it was?

EUGENE MARAIS: Sir, at one stage I considered that I actually thought that it was under the auspices or the clearance of the AWB. After the attack, during the days before we were arrested, it was made clear to me then by Mr Botha, that this was actually - was - and that was after he told me that he phoned the media to inform them that this actually was an OB operation.

JUDGE WILSON: So you knew that?

EUGENE MARAIS: I beg your pardon?

JUDGE WILSON: You knew it was ...  [intervention]

EUGENE MARAIS: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Because it appears that you gave evidence saying that it was an AWB aksie.

EUGENE MARAIS: That's right, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And you knew that wasn't true.

EUGENE MARAIS: Sir, I knew it was not true, and if you would permit I can give you the reason why I did that.

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on.

EUGENE MARAIS: All right.  You will also see that in my court case, we only gave evidence in mitigation.  And under orders of my legal team at that stage, it was felt that we should not put too emphasis on the politics.  I'm sorry, I'm going to switch to Afrikaans at this point.

JUDGE WILSON: With pleasure.

EUGENE MARAIS: The feeling, as I've already said - we didn't have a trial.  We pleaded guilty, and the only evidence we gave was in mitigation and my legal representatives felt that if we laid too much stress on the political aspect it would be aggravating, and not mitigating.  That was the first reason, the second reason was oath of allegiance that I'd sworn to the Orde Boerevolk, that also prevented me from saying too much about it in my trial.

JUDGE WILSON: In your evidence you said "I asked him why?" and he said to me that it was a revenge.  That we as the AWB should stop this uprising.  Did you say that?

EUGENE MARAIS: I just want to put it this way -if I  had  known that day what happened six years later - that I would be sitting here, then I wouldn't have used the word "revenge".  Because that's from that date, perhaps I used the word revenge in the previous application.  I'm waiting to be confronted by that, but I'm saying now that it's just terminology then I said there, it was in reaction.

JUDGE WILSON: You said you didn't want to talk about politics but you said  "No Your Honour, I wasn't told that the order had come from Ventersdorp, but that's what I assumed because Piet had direct contact with Eugene Terreblanche and that it was an important decision, and it was the kind of decision which wouldn't have been taken at local level." That's political.

EUGENE MARAIS: No, I didn't say that we weren't going to bring politics in, but I just want to say that we were told not to make too much emphasis on it.

JUDGE WILSON: As a result of the speeches of Mr Terreblanche in which one heard constantly of the total onslaught that was coming, the Black uprising, I thought that this was the beginning of that onslaught which turned the Blacks not only against one another, but would make them fight against Whites.  Here you're referring to Mr Terreblanche again.  That's not true and you knew it wasn't true.

EUGENE MARAIS: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In,  - it is reported on the, on the record that you said that you took the AK47 upon the insistence of the, of Mr Botha?

EUGENE MARAIS: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was it in  fact upon his insistence.  Does that mean that you were not keen to take it along?

EUGENE MARAIS: It was more than six years ago.  He told me bring the rifle and I brought the rifle.  It was standard practice.  Wherever we went we took our firearms with us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I do ot understand what is it in fact you can't remember?

EUGENE MARAIS: You asked me whether he told me to bring the rifle, and I maybe objected or insisted or whatever.  He told me to bring the rifle and I did not even answer him, I brought the rifle.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you reluctant to take it along?

EUGENE MARAIS: No, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why did he have to insist that you bring it along if you were not reluctant to do so?

EUGENE MARAIS: I'll tell you the standard procedure.  I did not normally ride around with the AK47.  We all had licensed firearms and normally when you go to an AWB meeting or get someone to go somewhere you will take your licensed firearms.  So it was not standard practice that I drove around with the AK47 and that's why he told me to bring the AK47.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well I thought earlier on when you were asked about the carrying of firearms you said it was standard practice to go around with firearms as a show of force.

EUGENE MARAIS: Yes, that's right, yes.  But you couldn't walk around with an AK47.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you say that you did not know at all as to why you had to take your AK47 along?

EUGENE MARAIS: It was not specified, no Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Botha did not tell you.

EUGENE MARAIS: No, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you ask him?

EUGENE MARAIS: No, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why not?

EUGENE MARAIS: I didn't think it was necessary, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why was it not necessary to ask him to carry something that you normally don't take along?

EUGENE MARAIS: I just felt it wasn't necessary, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Isn't the reason that he really told you? Isn't the true explanation that Mr Botha in fact told you the purpose of your taking the AK47 along that night? You knew why you had to take it along.

EUGENE MARAIS: No, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just two aspects.  Did you again personally from this incident?

EUGENE MARAIS: No, Sir.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it out of malevolence?

EUGENE MARAIS: No, there was no malice.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Botha, sorry, can I just ask you this which is troubling me? Is it correct that you told the trial court that Mr Botha said to you "Take the firearm along, we are just going out for a drive"?

EUGENE MARAIS: That's right, Sir.  Like I explained earlier, that was policy and we did it all the time.  That is the first time it would have been for me in Richards Bay but it was standard practice here where I used to be in the AWB before.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did he tell you where you were going for a drive?

EUGENE MARAIS: No, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He didn't even tell you,  you were going to Durban?

EUGENE MARAIS: No, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When did you realise that you were going to Durban?

EUGENE MARAIS: When we got into the motor car, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did he tell you then?

EUGENE MARAIS: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well then he told you.

EUGENE MARAIS: I beg your pardon?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Then he did tell you that you were going to Durban.

EUGENE MARAIS: Yes but maybe I didn't understand you correctly, but ...  [intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well you have just said to me earlier on that he did not tell you that you were going to Durban.  You were going for a drive.

EUGENE MARAIS: Well that is what he told me earlier in the day.  Earlier in the day he told me to come to his house, bring the rifle and that we are going for a drive.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: All right, let's start at the stage of when you are already in the car.  When you were in the car he told you are going to Durban?

EUGENE MARAIS: Now we are going to Durban, yes Sir.