Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

MR TSHOLANKU: Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, this was precipitated by the question that he, how did he get to Uganda.  I am not going to try and belabour the point, Mr Chairman.  If I am, follow direction, I am inclined to follow direction, but it was precipitated by how he got to Uganda where he did his Standard nine.  I can simply direct him as to where to go, Mr Chairman, if that is what the Committee wants.  I was trying to avoid a situation where certain information will not be available to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, I do not think it is in dispute that he was a member of the ANC, but let us see where he takes us.  You, did you eventually get to Uganda as you suggested?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, my departure from Angola, we went straight to Uganda, because I was amongst the first contingent.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you recruited to join the ANC?

LAURENS MBATHA: Actually, it is through Radio Freedom, it is through my friend who had, actually, a clear political history, that the whole process became very clear, because he was a strong, strong believer, an admirer, that time of President O R Thambo.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left, when you went to Angola for what purpose was it?

LAURENS MBATHA: It was to undergo, actually, for a military training.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you eventually?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, I was trained, actually, into a commanders course for a period of seven months and then from there proceeded over to the German Democratic Republic that is East Germany, specialising in urban warfare for a period of a year.  Then coming back in 1998, it was at the era when the agreement was reached, was, actually, reached, that is between South Africa.  The Namibian Government through the United Nation that ANC soldiers and the Cubans will have to withdraw from Angola.  I happened to have been part of those, that is the first contingent, we left Angola for Uganda.  That was in May 1988, 89 and reached Uganda, stayed there in the camps and assumed different political portfolios.  I am not sure do I have to state that.
	In the camp, actually, as members of those who have trained and experience from Angola, I became a member of the Commissariat Department, I became a member of the Research Department, which was basically there to update lectures, to update political discussions around the camp, as an element which was sustaining us in the camp, because politics was one of the major areas.  I became a Company Commissar that trained personnel which came from Angola, I was deployed in it, shifted over now to the newly trained recruits who came in 1991, because it was for the first time that we had four ladies.  So, I was, actually, dispatched to that unit as a Company Commissar by the camp administration to handle that situation.  
	Up until October where I was, actually, deployed now in the Chief Representative's Office, working as an Education Officer.  At that stage my portfolio was to ensure, because all this members of MK in Uganda working through the Chief Education Officer of Uganda at a ministerial level, that we should ensure that we find openings for them, that is within all the tertiaries that are available there, including bursaries, that was linked with the World University Service, the South African Extension Unit.  That we did proceed up until the end of 1991, the 14th.  I have, actually, lost my brother and it was arranged, through the Representative's Office where a ticket was, actually, sent over from the military as to, that I will have to come back home.
	So, I reached South Africa on the 14th of 1991, December.  I could not attend the funeral of the deceased, because I was late due to some arrangements in Uganda, but  now as the breadwinner by then, appeared to be the breadwinner, because my brother was the elder one.  The arrangement was made again with Shell House, I should, sorry that I should indicate the name, that happened at, comrade Chris was also still alive that time, where I went, actually, back to them and explained that my position of going back to Uganda, it is not possible, because I am the only elder one at home and my brother was the breadwinner. The agreement, actually, was reached then, because the application had to be done through the internal affairs, because I was only given 30 days to be in South Africa, that I will have to remain.  It is at that stage, actually, that my ID document was applied for.  So, I stayed in South Africa up until 1992, July where, finally, I was appointed as the Regional Commander of Umkhonto we Sizwe in the Northern Cape.  I assumed office up until 1994, that is June, when I was appointed as a Major in the National Defence Force, going through the (...indistinct) process, that is the British Military Aid Training Advising Team and at that stage I am serving at the three, the Third South African Infantry Battalion, that is in Three Sai, where I am appointed now as a Company Commander.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you Mr Mbatha.  Now, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry to interrupt you.  What position did you occupy until 1994?

LAURENS MBATHA: By then I was appointed as the Regional Commander of Umkhonto we Sizwe in the Northern Cape.

CHAIRPERSON: From what year to what?

LAURENS MBATHA: It is from 1992, June, it became effective on the first of September, up until July, the 20th, when I was appointed, that is July 94, when I was appointed in the National Defence Force as a Major.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I thought you originally said you were appointed a Regional Commander of the Northern Cape from July.  Is it June?

LAURENS MBATHA: I was appointed from July.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you Mr Mbatha.  So, would it be correct to say on the 25th day of May 1993 you were still Regional Commander of Umkhonto we Sizwe in the Northern Cape?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

MR TSHOLANKU: Now, an incident took place which is one of the reasons why you have applied for amnesty, this incident took place on the 25th May 1993.  Would you shed light as to your involvement in this particular incident?

LAURENS MBATHA: My involvement in the incident, as the Regional Commander of MK by then, that on that particular day, I am not sure do I have to go through the history of the day or just directly go to the point of the incident.

MR TSHOLANKU: Mr Mbatha, alluding to the incident, if necessary, if, a brief history of what led to the particular incident is necessary, I, speaking under correction, Mr Chairman, I think it would be proper for the Committee to hear this information.  Thank you.