Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

CHAIRPERSON: Any other counsel appearing for one of the applicants, who wants to put questions to the witness?

MR HUGO: Chairperson, yes, I act on behalf of Mr De Kock, and I would like to ask a couple of questions to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, you are Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: That is correct.  Mr  Van Rensburg, when did you first meet Mr De Kock in your career?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think it was in April of 1989 approximately.

MR HUGO: Could you tell the Committee how it came about that you had contact with him or met him?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I can't remember.  I can't remember whether it happened at the office or at Vlakplaas perhaps, or where.  I really can't recall our first meeting.

MR HUGO: Now, in 1989 you were transferred to the Security Headquarters in Pretoria, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR HUGO: If I understand your evidence correctly, Vlakplaas Unit C1 or Unit C10, fell directly under your command?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: Could we perhaps just deal with how Vlakplaas came about and its objectives?  When did you for the first time become aware of the existence of Vlakplaas or Unit C1?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, I think it was in 1980 or 1981.  I am not sure of the exact year, but I would say as far as I can recall, it was round about 1980/1981.

MR HUGO: You then for the first time became aware of the existence of this Unit, C1?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR HUGO: General, perhaps before I ask you the next question regarding the function of Vlakplaas, could you perhaps tell me are you aware of what gave rise to the establishment of such a Unit?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As I understood it, there were in those days some of the trained ANC people, people who had undergone military training, and who had returned to the Republic for some or other purpose, who had been arrested and questioned and some of them were turned and they declared their willingness to cooperate with the South African Security Police or Force, and there was then the need to accommodate these people somewhere for their own safety and that they would be absorbed into a Unit with permanent members of the South African Police and work along side them in order to track other returnees and the purpose was also that they should try and obtain information relating to such persons.

MR HUGO: So that is the way you understood the reasons and the motive for the establishment of this Unit in the early 1980's?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Could it put it to you like this, according to your understanding, Vlakplaas' conduct and actions which sometimes took place in a covert way, that it was legitimate according to what you knew about Vlakplaas and their modus operandi?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is the way I saw it.

MR HUGO: That was the way you saw it in the early 1980's.  Was there any change in your views at any stage, did you views or perceptions change perhaps later to the extent that you perhaps thought that the conduct of the Unit wasn't quite so legitimate?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, as early as 1981.

MR HUGO: Yes?  What happened to change your mind and to your views that these things weren't always done in a legitimate way?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: The then Commanding Officer of Vlakplaas, Mr Dirk Coetzee, mentioned it to me.

MR HUGO: Mr Van Rensburg, what did Mr Dirk Coetzee tell you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He told me that he was involved or had been involved, in certain operations.  He didn't give me specific details about what kind of operations, but he mentioned that the Unit would also eliminate activists if necessary.

MR HUGO: You didn't ask him as to the details of these operations which were clearly carried out in an illegal way?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I did not.

MR HUGO: Why didn't you ask him Mr Van Rensburg?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I didn't ask him.  I can't recall that I asked him such a question.

MR HUGO: You see what I find surprising is that you were a police officer responsible for safety and security and security in the country, and for doing it in a proper and legal way and here you have the situation where one of your own Security Policemen who came and told you that we are involved in certain illegal things and he mentioned certain operations, but you didn't specifically ask him about these operations and what the reasons for them were.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He mentioned it by the way and he said that he had been given authorization or orders to perform certain operations.

MR HUGO: Well, Mr Van Rensburg, that creates an even bigger problem for me in the sense that here he was talking about orders and instructions and authorization to carry out operations.  Don't you think there was a duty on you to actually ask him who had given him the authorization, etc?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I didn't ask him.  I regarded it as a matter which at that stage was confidential and I regarded it as a thing to be dealt with on a need to know basis and I didn't ask him about it.

MR HUGO: What was your rank in 1980 and in 1981 Mr Van Rensburg?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: In 1980 I was a Major.

MR HUGO: And after Dirk Coetzee had told you these things, was that, according to you, acceptable and did you accept them as such?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.  I just want to tell the Commission that Mr Coetzee and I were already on a date that I can't remember, I think it was somewhere in 1979 or 1980, that we were involved in a cross-border operation in Swaziland, and for that I am also applying for amnesty.

MR HUGO: Can you tell this Committee in the early 1980's were you satisfied that a need existed that certain actions should be taken against the liberation fighters which on should take place on an unconventional way?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I felt like that and because of various statements by amongst others politicians.

MR HUGO: You know, I want to put it to you in this way.  I am involved with the first applicant's hearing or case for about three years, and I am still uncertain about this stage during which the decision was made that illegal ways and means should be used or methods should be used to combat the enemy.
	When, for the first time in your career, did you receive the instruction to act in this way and by this way I mean unconventional and unlawful manner?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As I have already told you Mr Chairman, it could have been in 1979 or 1980, I can't remember specifically, but it was round about those years.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I just interrupt you there.  When did Mr Coetzee disclose to you that people were eliminated, some such things?  When did he disclose to you for the first time?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I can remember Mr Chairman, it was round about the middle of 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now Mr Van Rensburg, during this period, this initial stages when you received instructions to become involved in a cross-border operation, I accept especially regarding cross-border operations, that you received instructions from senior officers?  Officers who were obviously your seniors?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Did you ask these officers for the motivation for these actions?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I did ask them.  It was during general discussions that we mentioned these things.

MR HUGO: Could you, should you wish or if you did not want to cooperate, could you refuse to do this?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I accept that I could have.