Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

JOHANNES MNISI: You can still use them the same way, it depends on the type of the operation that you want to conduct, therefore you will manufacture it according to the operation.  It depends on the kilograms.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember approximately, how many kilograms of such equipment was packed?

JOHANNES MNISI: No I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Was it a lot or a little?

JOHANNES MNISI: No I don't remember exactly how many.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you said you cannot remember exactly, but matters were discussed, what did you mean by you cannot remember exactly?  You cannot remember exactly when what matters were discussed, or you cannot remember what was discussed, which is it that you meant?

JOHANNES MNISI: There were times when people came who came from South Africa.  We used to ask them about life in South Africa, that's why I said we used to discuss matters, I mean things, many thing.

MR RICHARD: Now I gather then that there were discussions between you and either or both of Mr McBride or Mr Webster?

JOHANNES MNISI: I used to discuss with Webster quite a long time because I used to be with him outside the country because he was also trained outside of South Africa, but McBride, I think our conversations were minimal.

MR RICHARD: The impression I get from your answer is that it was more generalities and matters of interest, it wasn't specific, in relation to operations or MK's affairs, that you had discussions about?

JOHANNES MNISI: Most of the time our conversation would be general.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever discuss any operations with them?

JOHANNES MNISI: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: And you certainly didn't discuss any of the operations that either Mr Webster nor Mr McBride had carried out, or were about to carry out?

JOHANNES MNISI: I don't remember very well, but maybe when I met Webster in Lusaka, we talked about those operations, but I don't remember really.

MR RICHARD: When would you have met Mr Webster in Lusaka?  After his escape?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, after his escape.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you have any experience in the manufacture and the putting together of the car bomb?

JOHANNES MNISI: I trusted and I believed that any trained MK member can manufacturer a car bomb, because this is one of the things that you are trained with in our general courses.

MR RICHARD: If the equipment that you packed into that Ford was made into one car bomb, what sort of car bomb would it be, a small one, or a big one?

JOHANNES MNISI: This depends on the operative himself.  If that person decides to make a car bomb, then it depends on him, solely on him.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question put by Mr Richard was, if all the material that was packed into the vehicle, the Ford, was used in the manufacture of a car bomb, would that be a big car bomb or a small car bomb, can you say if that material was used, all of it?

JOHANNES MNISI: It can be a big car bomb, because extended charges have big kilograms and it also depends whether he has other material to add on top of it.

MR RICHARD: What sort of other material would you add on top?

JOHANNES MNISI: I'm talking about material in other occasions when he used to go to Botswana and Dumakude and Vusi will give him.

MR RICHARD: So you know that he was given other equipment as well?

MR BERGER: The witness is talking about other occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what I understood by it.

MR RICHARD: Mr Mnisi, my question is very simple.  You helped pack the equipment into this particular Ford on that day and from your previous answer I gathered that you were aware that on other occasions in the past, Mr Webster or Mr McBride had received equipment, is my impression correct, that you were aware, that's all?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And when you speak of adding material on top, you were saying that some of the other equipment that they had received on other occasions, could have been added to what they got from you that day?  Have I understood it right?

JOHANNES MNISI: I was trying to answer your question because you asked me that the charges which we gave Mr McBride, was he going to make a strong and powerful bomb, or a smaller one, now I answered your question by saying this was going to depend on him.  If he wanted to make a powerful bomb, he was going to do so, but if he wanted to make a less powerful bomb, he was going to do so.

JUDGE PILLAY: As I understand you, Mr Mnisi, or let me ask you this.  The material you provided to him, was that sufficient for him to have built a powerful car bomb, on its own?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, it was enough.

JUDGE PILLAY: And whether it was a powerful car bomb, or not so powerful, depended on what he himself decided to use and if he wanted to build a very powerful bomb, he could have, if he had other material, have used it in addition to what you provided for him?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair.  Now in the manufacture of a car bomb, was it taught that you could add things like nails or pieces of metal, or cut up reinforcing steel?

JOHANNES MNISI: I wasn't part of the people who trained him, therefore I don't know how far he was trained.

MR RICHARD: When you were trained to make car bombs, or trained others besides them, did you ever suggest to them that they could add that sort of stuff into a car bomb?

JOHANNES MNISI: As I've already mentioned, that if one is a trained MK member, you are trained by so many things, including a car bomb.  You are trained by everything in manufacturing a car bomb, but at the end of the day it relies on the person who is making it, if you want to add on other pieces of metal, then you will.

MR RICHARD: So from your training you were taught that you could make the car bomb more effective by adding shrapnel, or pieces of metal into it.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the witness never said that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you can just rephrase your question because he didn't say that he was taught that.

MR RICHARD: Sorry.  Mr Mnisi was it ever the practice to teach person being trained that should they want to make a car bomb, they could add pieces of metal such as nails, cut up pieces of reinforcing rod and such-like, to the bomb?

JOHANNES MNISI: When one is trained they show you haw to manufacture a bomb and how to place it.  As I've already answered before, I said it depends on the person whether you put nails and everything.  I don't know how he was trained, Mr McBride, therefore I don't know whether he was trained in putting nails or whatsoever, in the making or in the manufacturing of the car bomb.

MR RICHARD: My question was not whether Mr McBride was trained to put in additional pieces of shrapnel to a car bomb, my question is whether trainees were told and trained to put extra bits of shrapnel into car bombs, should they want to.

JOHANNES MNISI: I personally in my training, I don't remember anyone telling me to put nails in the manufacturing of the car bomb.

MR RICHARD: One last question on that point, if they did do that, what would be the purpose of doing that?

JOHANNES MNISI: When one places a bomb in a certain place, that person has a reason for placing that bomb there.  At the time the situation was very bad, therefore putting a bomb, you had reason of why you're putting the bomb where you've put it.

MR RICHARD: I'll leave that point.  Now from your evidence-in-chief, we heard that you did have some experience of car bombs and that you were and have given evidence in the Pretoria car bomb incident.  Now you have been present during Mr Ismail's evidence.  I'm not sure whether you were or you weren't.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm not sure that Mr Mnisi said in his evidence-in-chief that he had experience of car bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he didn't say he had experience, he mentioned that he had made application and had appeared in hearings involving inter alia the Pretoria car bomb.

MR BERGER: Indeed.