Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't think he said that you would expect a form of payment, I mean a form of thank you in the form of money.  I think the question you asked to him was wouldn't you expect some thanks.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I correct that, we are agreed that even before carrying out an operation, you would expect some form of a thank you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is not so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was that not your answer in the beginning then?  Was that not your answer when I started with this topic of thank you that you said yes, you would expect that and at some stage, if I heard you correctly, you said even when you are asleep, you think of it, do you remember that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I said it is something that you wouldn't think about if you were to carry out an operation, that you would be thanked thereafter, maybe by a gift or money.  You were just going to do it and not expect that because you had done it, you have to be thanked.  That is what I meant to say.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Luthuli, I don't want to take it to a stage of an argument, but I recall when I posed this to you, you stated that it does happen and that is exactly what happened to you by Yamile.  You spoke in Zulu, I heard you very well.
	Unless, if you want to change, then do so then.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Can I then change?  If I put it that way, let me change it and say you wouldn't expect to be thanked for your job that you did.
	It could be that the person maybe you work for, thanked you as I made the Yamile example.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, the killing in retaliation for the murder of Walter Mtalani's sister, will I be correct if I say the correct word to use there is not retaliation, but revenge.  Would that be correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I wouldn't really put a word to it.  When something happen and you would want to retaliate at that time, I wouldn't really say whether it is revenge or retaliation, but if something happened, and you were therefore angry and at that time decided to go to that place, I wouldn't really use a specific word.  I could use both, I can say maybe it was revenge or retaliation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps to assist a little bit, will you agree with me if I say that had it not been of the killing or the murder of Walter's sister, this attack would not have taken place, am I correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And that makes it a revenge, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was the status of IFP in that area, was it strong or was it weak, was it well recognised?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: At that time, it had begun to become weak because the one house that was there, was the Mtalani house in the area.   If I am not mistaken, that was the only house.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But are we agreed that the IFP was in existence in Mtalani's area?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I agree.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And therefore the attack which I referred to as revenge, cannot be seen as having been to foster or to promote the interest of IFP, it was a simple revenge?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I would agree that it was a revenge, but at the same time, it was also to show that the IFP wouldn't let its members die, if there was something they could do about it, especially if a person had been killed in the manner that Mr Mtalani's sister had been killed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yesterday my learned friend, Mr Ngubane put this question to you, I will quote it to remind you.  Did you instruct them, that is the Caprivians to kill people other than specific targets, and your answer was no, do you remember that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want you to turn to page 263, paragraph 20.1.2, paginated page 263, paragraph 20.1.2.  I will read from the second line.  We however continued with our objective and petrol bombed houses and shot at those who came running out of the burning houses.  We also shot into the houses which we had petrol bombed.  We damaged approximately six houses.
	A line down after that one, I do not know who lived in those houses.  Do you see that?  Page 263, paginated 263, paragraph 20.1.2, the second line.
	I will pause a bit to give you time to read it.  Is it correct then that these people who were killed or shot at the six houses, for the reason that nobody knew who they were, they were not identified as targets, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Therefore their killing cannot be justified because they were not identified targets, will I be right?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say Mtalani being a resident in the area and him having heard from the witnesses or rather from people who had knowledge about this incident, and those people were identified to him as UDF people staying in the same area where this happened, and those people or those houses were close to him or close to his house, they were neighbours, to me it seemed that what he was saying was true.
	I did not investigate thoroughly whether those people were truly UDF members.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And it is then as it was even indicated to your good self yesterday by Mr Ngubane and you agreed that innocent people may have been killed in this raid as well?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I agreed that it is so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And if the innocent people who had nothing to do with what was happening there, then the political objective cannot be seen to be in existence in this operation?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would agree as you put it, but the motive for this was that the people who had killed Mr Mtalani's sister belonged to a certain organisation.  That was the reason why the attack even took place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am happy with the first answer Mr Luthuli.  Chairman, just a moment.
	Still on what as put to you by my learned friend, Mr Ngubane about innocent people, how do you justify, how do you find any political objective in the killing of people who were killed in shibeens and bus stops, not having been identified nor targeted, how do you justify the deaths of all those people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: There is no way that I can justify this, except that it sometimes happens that an area is controlled by a certain organisation and because maybe the fighting going on cannot be controlled, you cannot sit down and identify specific targets.
	It will just be assumed that because in an area there are certain people who belong to a certain organisation, or which is controlled by a certain organisation, those people would have to be killed.
	To make an example, the killing of the people or the attacking of the people on their way to a rally, would necessitate a counter attack.  That would be in the same manner that the attack was carried out, without really verifying if the people who are going to be attacked, are necessarily targets.
	Even though that was bad, it is a practice that went on or took place.  That is the only way I can explain it.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe, sorry, Mr Luthuli, why is it that in many of the incidents that you have alluded to both in your evidence here and in your affidavit, there is not many of the services of the Defence Unit which was created specifically to confirm the information with regard to those people who had to be identified for elimination, there are not many instances where the services of the Defence Unit were used?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: This was an ongoing thing because the Caprivians were scattered all over.  Then they were receiving instructions from the local leadership from a certain area, from the training that they received, it was their duty to continue to advance and train others like them in that local membership of the area.

UNKNOWN: But you were the Overall Commander of these Units, you were in a position to give directions and control, why did you not do so?