Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Unfortunately I was not liaising directly with the military headquarters, I had a commander who was liaising with them and if they were maybe, they did play a role with regard to that, I don't know and it was not my responsibility to know.

MR WAGNER: The way I understand your evidence, you were based in Mozambique at the time, or where were you based?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say Swaziland?

MR WAGNER: Sorry Mr Chairman, Swaziland, you were based in Swaziland, is that correct?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: And was your unit, was that called the Transvaal Structure or what is meant by the word Transvaal Structure?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: The structure is appointed to oversee activities in the Transvaal.

MR WAGNER: Which individuals comprised of this Transvaal Structure who oversaw these activities you're referring to?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Different individuals at different times.

MR WAGNER: On the 20th of May 1987?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Mr Nyanda was the commander by then, I think I've already said so.

MR WAGNER: Did the Transvaal Structure fall under what was called the Swaziland Regional Politico-Military Committee?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That's correct.

MR WAGNER: Does that mean that Mr Ronnie Kasrils was your overall commander, in other words was he the senior to General Nyanda at the time?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I was not sitting in the structure so I wouldn't know and what you must also bear in mind, people were just coming and going into (indistinct), Swaziland was a battlefield and I think you are aware of the assassinations in fact that were carried out by the South African Police in Swaziland.

MR WAGNER: Mr Shoke can you please tell us was Mr Kasrils the immediate senior to General Nyanda or not?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I say Mr Kasrils used to come and go in Swaziland, he used to be in and out.  Obviously in the ANC hierarchy Mr Kasrils was senior to Nyanda, but like I told you that, people had different responsibilities at different times and people used to get in and out of Swaziland.

MR WAGNER: Now when Mr Kasrils visited Swaziland from time to time, did he have discussions with amongst others, you as a commander?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: He had discussions in fact with his Committee and I think General Nyanda, Mr Nyanda was my immediate commander.

MR WAGNER: Mr Shoke I'm not sure whether you understand my question.  Did you at times have meet with Mr Kasrils in Swaziland on his visits as the, apparently from page 53 that I read, the overall commander of the structure?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think when you look at that structure I was not sitting in fact in that order group so there was no way that I will go and sit with Mr Kasrils and discuss operations.  Yes of course I would meet Mr Kasrils as a person when he's in Swaziland, or even accommodate him, but not go and discuss work because Nyanda was sitting on that structure with Mr Kasrils, not me and then Nyanda will brief us on behalf of the leadership.  I think what you must bear in mind when underground organisation operating in fact in what I may call by then, the enemy territory and as far as we were concerned, Swaziland was not a safe area so it was no way that we could just have in fact a mass of people meeting.

MR WAGNER: Mr Shoke I understand, I understand that response, but I'm trying to get a picture of what was happening in Swaziland.  You referred the committee to what is called the Transvaal Structure and I'm trying to ascertain what this means.  What I know now is that apparently Mr Kasrils was the overall commander, that is on page 53 Mr Chairman, paragraph 6.4.1 and then Mr Nyanda or General Nyanda was the commander and then I'm know that you were somewhere around.  Can you help me with this Transvaal Structure, do you know how many commanders were there apart from yourself?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it say Kasrils was the commander or does he say he was the Chairman?

MR WAGNER: The Chairman Mr Chairman.  I would assume that would mean he's at the top, not necessarily the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Merely meaning that he was the Chairman of the committee.

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman I'm trying to find out how this worked, I'm not sure myself, I'm trying to ascertain from this witness if he can be of some assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Well this document we have deals with the Regional Politico-Military Committees and dealing with the Regional Politico-Military Committee for Swaziland it lists the Chairman.  It says Ronnie Kasrils until 1984, Ibraham  Ismail Ibraham until 1986 when he was abducted, Siphiwe Nyanda 1986 to 1987/1988, Selimko Sukupa (?) 1988 to 1989.  Do you see that?  And then it lists under that what appears to be other members of the committee for various periods.

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman sorry, maybe I've misread this, ja it seems as if General Nyanda was the Chairman in 1987 and not Mr Kasrils, that's my mistake.  Mr Shoke, and I'm referring all the time to May 1987 so that we don't misunderstand one another on that, that is the time of this incident, May 1987.  Do I understand you correctly, you were a commander in MK at that stage?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Before I answer you I also want to understand you quite clearly.  You want to know the period 1987 during the 20th of May also.  Is that what you want?

MR WAGNER: (Inaudible).

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes I was a commander but what you must also bear in mind is that I was a commander of a particular area.  I had someone above me, in fact who was the overall commander.

MR WAGNER: Thank you and being a commander, does that mean that you had a unit, you had a unit of a number of individuals and you were the commander.  Do I understand you correctly?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think you should (indistinct) we were a guerrilla formation, were dealing with people via remote control.  A commander in the typical sense or in a conventional sense he will be with his troops in the battlefield but in our situation we were to ensure from the rear that we facilitate the processes ... (intervention)
(?)

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible).

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Can I continue?  What you must also understand that guerrillas as opposed in fact to conventional forces, we exercise what we call command initiative, you rely on the initiative of the individual and everybody in MK was being prepared in fact to become a commander in the (indistinct) on his own.  People functioned independently.

MR WAGNER: Thank you but I'm still not sure.  Did you have people under your command, were you in command of a number of individuals and you were their commander and you can call upon them to obey your orders or not?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Individuals were (indistinct).  Yes it's true we had underground units in fact that we had to cater for inside South Africa and people whom we could in fact liaise with on behalf of the ANC leadership.

MR WAGNER: And were you in command of this Mr Kgoele, who's a co-applicant in this matter.  Was he one of the individuals under your command?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: Now I want to refer you a discussion you had with General Nyanda regarding the planning of this specific operation and I would like to ask you whose idea was it that this specific target should be the target of this operation?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Like I said earlier on that Nyanda was the overall commander in Swaziland and in any military situation the concept of operation is a concept of the commander.

MR WAGNER: Did General Nyanda tell you, Mr Shoke you and your unit should go and put a bomb outside the Magistrate's Court in Johannesburg?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think I said earlier on that Mr Nyanda brief the applicant Joe Kgoele and then after that I had to facilitate the whole process.