Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am telling you now, I have mentioned that more than once, that he said to me there was another mission that I was going to be involved in, therefore myself and Geoffrey Bosigo, we were not to be involved in that Chesterville incident.  I do not actually know or understand what is it that is your problem, the one that you do not understand.

MR HUGO: Well you see that's exactly my problem.  If you were to be involved in another mission, why were you then ordered to take the people to the bridge?  I mean, for that purpose you were part and parcel of this operation.  That's exactly what I don't understand.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am talking about the actual shooting, I'm not talking about the transporting of people to the bridge.

MR HUGO: Ja, but Mr Nofomela, you were at Vlakplaas since 1980, you were one of the most experienced operators, why would he try and keep you out of this shooting incident?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: You know what, you must pose that question to Mr de Kock.

MR HUGO: Well Mr Nofomela, maybe I must put it to you at this stage, Mr de Kock will say that he never had a consultation to this extent with you, he never told you that people were going to be killed ...(intervention)

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: How did I get that information, how did I know?

MR HUGO: Well Mr Nofomela, we will argue that you have sucked this out of your thumb and that is one of the reasons why you didn't mention it at the Harms Commission and you didn't mention it to the Attorney-General and you came up with this thing very late and it's all a bunch of lies that you're telling about this Chesterville incident.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is your job to represent de Kock.  I am so used to such statements, but the truth is I knew that the people were going to be shot at and de Kock told me so.  You are representing him, that is your job, that is why you are saying that.

MR HUGO: Yes, Mr Nofomela, but you're also used to lying to Courts you know, that's what you've done in the Harms Commission, you've done it in the criminal trial and you're doing it once more.  And you hate Mr de Kock with a passion, that's why you are trying to rope him in here.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: You are making a mistake, I do not hate him.  If you say I lied at the Harms Commission, all the people that you have represented there were lying during the Harms Commission.  If you say I was lying, just say all of us were lying because even the people that you have represented were also lying.

MR HUGO: I didn't represent anybody at the Harms Commission, Mr Nofomela.  I'm saying you lied at the Harms Commission, you kept on lying at the criminal trial and you have an ulterior motive to implicate Mr de Kock in this serious matter.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am not implicating anyone, I am implicating myself when you say I am lying because I am here, I'm simply making an application.

MR HUGO: Can we get back to what happened at the bridge.  When the people came back from this shooting incident, how did they get to the car from the house, or from wherever this shooting incident took place?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: The kombi had a sliding door, the door opened and they got inside and we left.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And who were they, who got into the car?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Those were the people who went there for the shooting, the people that I have already mentioned their names.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Mention them again, let's just test your memory and see how well you can remember.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said it was Tandi Shosha, Susan Moekwena, Paulus Magage, Simon Radebe and the other people that I cannot remember their names.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And this was now after this shooting incident.  What did they say?  They must have been very excited when they got into the kombi.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: Well why not, Mr Nofomela, you relying on your memory and you're saying Mr de Kock said this to you and he was there etc., etc., this is something that you should remember man.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: There are other things that I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: Yes.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Things that were not that important or things that are not important.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And didn't you ask them look, what happened, I heard there gunshots etc., etc., what is going on there, or what happened?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I could not ask them those questions because I am not the one who had instructed them to do that.

MR HUGO: Were they in a hurry when they got into the kombi?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR HUGO: And then you drove away?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: I did not receive the answer to whether he was in a hurry.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, they were in a hurry.

MR HUGO: And were you also in a hurry to get away from the scene?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR HUGO: And you decided to drive away straight back to CR Swart, is that correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I said that was the instruction that after finishing the job I should take them to CR Swart.  I don't know what else you are looking for.  After doing the job, they got into the car and I took them to CR Swart as I was instructed.

MR HUGO: Well you'll see what I'm looking for in a minute.  So who left the scene first?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot remember the sequence, who left the scene, who first accelerated.  That was not important to me.

MR HUGO: How many cars left the scene?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Plus-minus 3, if my memory serves me well.  I am not sure about that.

MR HUGO: Yes, and who were the drivers of the other two vehicles?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Will you please repeat the question.

MR HUGO: Who were the drivers of the other two vehicles?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know, Sir, I cannot remember.

MR HUGO: Where was Mr de Kock sitting?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He could have been in one of the two cars that were driven by white guys.  Nortje had his own car there.  I am not sure whether he was driving his car or not.

MR HUGO: Well you see Mr Nofomela, that's what worries me about your testimony.  When you say "he could have been in one of the cars", what do you mean by saying "he could have been in one of the cars"?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I mean that I couldn't cram or notice which car was he in, that was not important to me.

MR HUGO: And can you now today recall whether Mr Vermeulen was in one of the cars?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot remember, Sir, whether he was in one of the cars or not.  It might happen that he was also there.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And now you're driving off in a hurry to CR Swart, what happened when you arrived at CR Swart?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: They alighted from the vehicle, they reported what had happened.

MR HUGO: Yes, who alighted from the vehicle?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: The people who were there for the shooting.  We all alighted from the vehicle and they made a report-back and they reported that the mission was also successful.

MR HUGO: No, no, Mr Nofomela, let's take this step by step.  And you see this is important too, I'd like to know what your memory was as far as this is concerned.  Who in the kombi was supposed to report the incident?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Sir, I do not know, but all I saw was that the people alighted from the vehicle and we went to the base to a place where we used to sleep.  When we got in there the whites were also there and they came and they got the report.

MR HUGO: Well, can I just ask you first of all, did you get out of the kombi and you went to your sleeping quarters, you personally?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR HUGO: Now why on earth would the whites be waiting for you at the sleeping quarters?