Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Firstly I would say, at the time when we identified the old age home as a target, it happened that around South Africa, especially in Johannesburg, there were attacks in trains, there were attacks in Boipatong, Sebokeng, around Sebokeng.  Black people were killed like flies.  Then the understanding of Apla was that Africans were not killing each other as it was purported to be believed.  The Africans were killed by people who were hired by Whites so that to bring the idea that Black people don't like one another.  After Apla observed that it was unacceptable for Africans to be killed in that way, so it took a step so that it will be able to make Whites feel the pain the same as Africans who felt the pain.
	After that I was given an order that I should identify a target around Ficksburg area.  The target which would bring pain, more pain which Africans felt at that time because of the killings around Johannesburg in the Vaal Triangle and in the trains.  Then I went around Ficksburg area until I come across this area called an old age home.  After I came across this area I observed the area for some time as to whether people were residing there.  After that I consulted with the director of operations, that is comrade Mphashlele to inform him that I was able to identify a target.
	Out of our consultations he gave me a go ahead that I should prepare to attack that particular area.  I continued to gather the final details about our security going there and returning back.  What I would explain again is that in addition to the plan which we had about the attack about that particular area was that alternatively if it happened that when we arrived at the old age home the ammunitions and the arms that should be left after the attack we would throw them randomly around the houses which were nearby or if it happened that we encountered the police before, those police would be our target and then if they would flee the ammunitions we had there, grenades and Molotovs, would throw them around the houses there.
	Our aim was to fight a psychological war so again in addition to our primary objective to push them further from the borders so that we'd be having a territorial advantage near the borders, that is why we were able to attack that old age home.  Fortunately, we were not able to come nearer that old age home, then we engaged ourselves with our secondary objective or secondary target.  Then I threw a hand grenade next to the house then it fell on the car park then one car was damaged.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Kgotlhe, can you unless I ask you specifically again that now taking into account that these people were old people and they can't do anything for themselves and they were not party to what was happening in the country, why specifically them?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I would answer that firstly that oppression was not a discretion between age.  People who took part in the oppression included old people and young people, we did not have preferential treatment for old age people and when we responded against oppression we had to have a clear objective that oppressors were not different from the age groups, all of them were oppressors.  Then again even before they reached that old age state, they come from a certain age, they were members of the youth, they were young and then they were middle aged and they participated in the oppression and when they were old at the stage they took part in the support of apartheid and they benefited from the apartheid itself.  Why I'm saying age was not an issue is that firstly the oppressors themselves when they see me they saw me as a boy.  My father was regarded as a boy, my grandfather was regarded as a boy, my sister was regarded as a girl, my mother was a girl, so they did not differentiate between the various age groups or they didn't see a difference between me and my father or my grandfather, we were all boys so therefore we did not have a problem to respond to that oppression knowing that there was no young persons and old persons, all of them were oppressors.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Ms Patel, any questions?

MS PATEL: Sorry Chairperson, just grant me a moment?
	When you consulted, Mr Kgotlhe, when you consulted Mr Mpashlele, did you tell him exactly what your target was?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes I did.

MS PATEL: Okay and during your reconnoitring the houses in the vicinity of the old age home did you reconnoitre that section as well, did you know who stayed there or didn't it matter?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I don't remember well but the most important thing was that the area I'm talking about is situated within town.  There is a likelihood that the police station would be around firstly, secondly the houses which were there could have been occupied by members of the security personnel but I don't remember well about the final details in regard to the houses or the occupants surrounding the old age home.

MS PATEL: Do I understand you correctly, you're making an assumption that there was a police station in the area and that those houses were occupied by members of the security forces?  That's just an assumption?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I would say I assumed because this thing happened a long time ago and then some of the final details have slipped my memory.

MS PATEL: Okay, I'd like to put it to you that there isn't in fact a police station near the old age home?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I would agree with you, I would not dispute, I would not agree.

MS PATEL: And if I understand you correctly, the only thing that mattered was that they were White, was that your victims were White, that the occupiers of the homes in the vicinity were White?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: You must have known though that there were White people in this country who were involved in the liberation movement, not so?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes I do.

MS PATEL: So can you explain why you painted all White people with the same brush, why you didn't seek to draw a distinction between White people who would have been supportive of the liberation movement and those who were not?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: You'd remember that even Craig Williamson was involved with the ANC.  I'd say the oppressors in the liberation movements was not a clear cut idea as to whether no one can win the constituency that here to liberation movements.  The oppression was general to the African people then the response to that oppression had to be general to those who took part in the oppression.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any further questions by the panel?

ADV BOSMAN: Could you just tell us how long before the attack on the houses, I'm now referring to the first incident on which you gave evidence, was this attack on the old age home planned?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: You mean how long it took to be planned?

ADV BOSMAN: No, no, I mean how long before you attacked the houses where you thought there were security personnel, how long before that did you plan the attack on the old age home, when did this attack which you intended for the old age home, when did that take place?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I'm not quite sure about the actual duration but I would say it happened a month or two weeks, I'm not sure about the actual period.

ADV BOSMAN: I wonder if you then could just clarify for me Mr Kgotlhe, this I don't understand, why were you concerned in the second attack about an area where there was security people living and not in the first attack, that I don't understand?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Is that in regard to the first application or in regard to the one we're dealing with now.