Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that person would appear before our structure and the structure would decide his fate.  He or she would be convicted to a number of strokes or lashes and the structure would decide just how many.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   After the meeting you had and the structure that was formed for marshalling the area, how was crime after that in your area?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The rate of crime deceased.  The incidents of crime or criminal acts would only take place when the criminals knew that most people would be at work, away at work, they did not commit these criminal activities in the evenings when people were at home.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So Mr Cele, as we now heard the background of your area,  can you please tell the Committee what led to your arrest and conviction in this and what ultimately led you to appear in front of the Committee?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: With regards to my arrest, around December 1989 some people came to attack me in my area.  They suspected me of having killed Martin Ngcobo who had been living in the area, although he was not born and bred in the area.  I heard that some people had arrived.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Sorry to interrupt you, can you please give us a date when these people came to your area?

ADV DE JAGER: We understand that it is a long time ago, you could even lead him on the date.  I don't think that would be disputed.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Advocate.  Please proceed.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: If I am not mistaken these people arrived on the 24th of December and I heard about their arrival in the evening of the 24th.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Proceed sir.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: On the following day, which was Christmas day, I discovered that indeed these people were present although I was not certain if they had really come to attack me.   The rumour that I heard was that they had come to attack me, that would have been a revenge attack for the death of Martin Ngcobo.    My family then decided to send a message to these people, or rather she sent the message to Martin's mother and requested to see her.  Martin's mother, that is Diana Cele, came to my home.

MR MOLOHLANYE: I am sorry to interrupt you Mr Cele, it is not Martin's mother, it is Martin's girlfriend's mother?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Please proceed.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Nococanya Cele, Martin's girlfriend, also came.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What happened?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When they came to my home, they were asked if they had any knowledge about the people who were alleged to have come to attack me for the death of Martin.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What was their response to that?  What was their response to that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They said that they did not know anything about it.

MR MOLOHLANYE: After the meeting that you had between both families, what happened?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They said they had no knowledge with regards to these people, just what their business was, and thereafter we dispersed and they returned home and we also remained at our house.   At that time, there were also people, neighbours, who had also noticed the presence of these people because these individuals were actually making a lot of noise where they were residing at the time.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Sorry, you are saying they were shouting.  What were they saying when they were shouting and making a noise?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: What I heard distinctly when I went outside, it was not very far from my home, they wanted to know from the group that I was in, who was Thulani and I showed myself.  Although I could not see the person quite clearly, he said to me he was coming.  He said that he was coming and he was going to get Martin's hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this a female or a male?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It was a male.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were there, you are referring to people having shouted at you and having asked who was Thulani.  How many people were there who were making such enquiries?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There were quite a few, they were at Amos' house and there were people standing around there, children.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you estimate the number, would you say a few, would approximate three, four, five or more than five persons?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I think if I include everybody who was at that house, they could have been more than 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this include Diana Cele?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, she was not there, she was at her home at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: And the 10 persons, were they all unknown to you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I only knew the people whose home they were residing in, but of the people who had come, I didn't know anyone.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were unknown to you in that group?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It was difficult to estimate because they would not all come out simultaneously, they would emerge one person or two persons at a time.  I only saw them together when we went to a meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: You have referred to a group of 10 persons.  I want to know from that group, how many people were unknown to you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: As I mentioned before, that number included the people or the members of the household, but I could not really estimate just how many these unknown persons were because they were not all there in the yard, they would come out a person at a time, or two people at a time, but they were not all together.

CHAIRPERSON: Later on you were able to know who exactly you knew and who you didn't know.  How many people were unknown to you at the time when you escorted these people to the hills?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There were six boys that I found as well as one female, whom I only saw when I was quite close to them.  I knew this female.

CHAIRPERSON: You may go back to your examination in chief, Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   You said you were standing outside and you heard these people shouting.  With whom were you standing, were you alone?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I was not alone.  There were neighbours who were also standing outside on my yard.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you tell us what happened after that, on the same date, on the 25th of December 1989?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I waited, waiting for them to arrive, but they did not turn up on that day.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Were you alone waiting for them or did you have any company?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There were many of us.  There were other residents of the area present.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You waited with these people overnight or did they leave at any time on the 25th?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: We all waited until the following day.

MR MOLOHLANYE: When did they leave your house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They left on the following day, about mid-morning.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What happened after that, Mr Cele?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: After they had left, and it was only myself and my family remaining and my family were all females, these people then came to my home, the very same people who had been in that house.  They were all male and amongst them I only knew Bunu.

CHAIRPERSON: How many were they?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I think they were about seven.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say amongst the seven persons, you only knew one person by the name of Bunu?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is the only person that I saw.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?  Proceed and then what happened?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: As they left that house, coming towards my home, there was a noise that erupted, people from other houses started shouting.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Did they finally make it to your house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, they did not enter the house.  They were coming along the road, but a lot of people came out running, out of their houses because my family and myself also came out of the house.  The females ran away and I proceeded towards Muandla's house, which was about ...

MR MOLOHLANYE: You said some people ...