Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-03

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You see why I'm asking you this is because you - the answers you've been giving to me, the answers are trying to paint a picture of a person who was some form of leadership of doing things for the PAC.  Am I correct.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I was not a leader, I was just an activist, I was just helping.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Alright, if you have got the application form in front of you, look at page 1 of the application and look in particular paragraph 7(b).  I'll read for convenience, it says
"State capacity in which you served in the organisation, institution, body or liberation movement concerned, if applicable and membership number if any."
and you say there:
"To liberate the country."
Is being an activist not a capacity within an organisation or a foot soldier not a capacity within an organisation?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I thought that this refers to positions like presidents, at that time I was just an ordinary member, I didn't have any position in the organisation, I was just an activist, an active member in the organisation.  I didn't take it as a person who has a position in the organisation, I was just active in the organisation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see, is being an activist or a foot soldier not a capacity in an organisation, not leadership, capacity?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes that is correct, it's a capacity.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why was it not written here you were an activist?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I did not write, I agree that that's a mistake.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Turn to page 3, the paginated page 3.  Now was there - did any person in the leadership of PAC order or authorise this operation?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No one gave the go ahead for this operation.  I only received instructions from the high command of APLA so as the make the government of the day ungovernable.  I took a decision on my own and that was promulgated by the ANC President, Oliver Tambo.  He also said that we must keep the government of the day ungovernable and the people should arm themself.  That is why I took a decision and decided that I should go ahead with this operation to repossess.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But Mr Malefane, that was an ANC instruction to ANC cadres and activists?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: It was not only directed to the ANC soldiers, PAC was working together with other African liberation movements.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was it a policy of the ANC to repossess or the policy of PAC?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: It was the PAC policy.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now how could you do what you have done for the PAC policy on instruction by ANC which if it was not their policy to repossess?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: My understanding was that every member of the liberation movement, you would take a decision from any person who has an influential position.  When he spoke he generalised he said that that people should arm themselves so as to make the country ungovernable.  Those were nice words because we were oppressed so when you hear such words, as a human being you will take those words.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I won't take it further Mr Chairman, I think it's a point for argument.  Let's go to page 4?  On page 4 under paragraph 9.4, 10. and other pages I did not mention as well as your evidence in chief, you make mention of a robbery with intention of accumulating capital for the task force.  The word task force goes on and on and on.  What was this task force, what did it consist of?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That was part of the PAC, it's main function was to further the struggle inside the country.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja but Mr Malefane, if you were involved in these things, every task force had a commander or a director thereof and members in the task force.  Just tell us who were they, who was the commander of the task force?  PAC had a lot of task forces with commanders and members.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I only know them by their comrade names, I don't know their real names.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who was the director of operations?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Which operation are you talking about?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Operations carried out by the PAC in the operation units.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: It was Sabelo Palma.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He was the director.  Let's leave it there.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: He was in the high command.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Have you heard of any task force that was referred to as the Beauty Salon?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: There are so many task forces in the PAC.  There are other secrets but you have to reveal ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Malefane, the question was simple, have you heard of a task force called the Beauty Salon?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Maybe Mr Chairperson just to put it in a unit within the PAC which was code named Beauty Salon within the APLA, you can put it that way, it was also catering for task forces.

CHAIRPERSON: Just rephrase your - repeat your question Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Malefane, did you know of a unit that was within the PAC and this was also a repossession unit called the Beauty Salon?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No I didn't know that unit.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know any person who was a commander by the name of Maseko?  He is an African.  Mr Chair, when I say African I mean PAC, I'm sorry.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I know him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good, did you know the unit he was responsible for, the task force he was responsible for?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No I don't.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's leave it there.  Now I'm going back to my question, the task force you are referring to you, which one is it, who was it's commander?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: The commander was Nkosi Nati.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Nkosi Nati who?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: He was a member of that task force.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And what was the code name of that task force?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: He tell me about it's name but he was the commander of that task force.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now turn to page 9, paginated Mr Chair.  This is the letter you forwarded to TRC when responding to it's questions.  I'm interested in paragraph I think one but let me read the whole thing.  That's where you say, where you mention the people with whom you operated, Bonginkosi Mchunu, Johannes Mkhize, Eric Williams, Bango Ngubane, David Nene, then you say their addresses all of them are at Johannesburg Medium C prison.  Do you see that?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then you continue saying
"the rest of them they don't belong to any political organisation."

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now if this operation was PAC task force operation, repossessing, how do you involve people who are not members of the PAC in a PAC operation?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I took the decision and these people didn't know what we are going to do at that place, they didn't know why I'm going to repossess that mine.  They were not supposed to know.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You haven't answered my question, I will repeat it for you.  How do you involve non-members in an organisation, in the operation of an organisation because it is PAC organisation, it should have been seen to have found that people who have operated therein were members of that task force or members of APLA.  Now all these were non-members all of them, how do you do that?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: I went to Chris Msimeni Langa to ask for money and then he said to me he won't have money for more.  He further said to me that he will introduce me to other people who will accompany me to go and deposit this money.  He then introduced me to David Nene and others.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was Chris Langa, what position did he hold?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: Chris Langa was a member of the MK.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did he hold any position of leadership?

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: No Chairperson, he was not in the leadership.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was an ANC cadre, not PAC.

PHILLIP FAIZEL MALEFANE: That is correct, Chairperson.