Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

MR SIGUDU: Wiseman took one of us to the area where this lady was shot.  Wiseman - excuse me, would you please repeat the question.

MS THABETE: Mr Chair, can you allow me to ask him in Zulu?

CHAIRPERSON: That must be done through the interpreter.

MS THABETE: Sure, thanks Mr Chair.
	Mr Sigudu, one question I am asking you is that you are saying you planned this, you sat down and planned this robbery, that you will go and rob Miss Govender.  Now, my question is, during the time of planning, how did you plan it, how did you plan this robbery?

MR SIGUDU: Wiseman brought to our attention that he knows better.  He had said that this person keeps money, keeps cash in the bank and he was going to take one of us and he took Manqele indeed and he went to show him.  After he had done that he came back and told us and a few days later we went then and executed the plan.  Manqele first showed us the person and we did that.

MS THABETE: You are saying Wiseman went with Mr Manqele to show him the routine, is that correct?

MR SIGUDU: Yes.

MS THABETE: Then you say, Mr Manqele came back to you to report, is that correct?

MR SIGUDU: Yes.

MS THABETE: Exactly what did Mr Manqele report to you?

MR SIGUDU: He told us that he had seen the place because Wiseman had shown it to him.

MS THABETE: Wiseman showed him what, or who?

MR SIGUDU: He said he showed him the person who is in charge of the money, the one whom we were supposed to rob.

MS THABETE: Is that all he reported back to you?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, that is exactly what he reported to us.

MS THABETE: Mr Sigudu, why I am asking you this is because we have got a handwritten statement from Mr Manqele when he made his indemnity application, where he states that Mr Wiseman told him that the victim was working with him, they were working together, and that Mr Wiseman was retrenched because of that said lady and also because the said lady hated black people, especially members of Inkatha Freedom Party.  That's on page 13 of the bundle.  And then he goes on, that is Mr Manqele, goes on to say before he could say anything, he saw Wiseman pulling out the gun and Mr Manqele tried to stop him but the bullet went off and it injured the woman.  What is your comment to this statement?

MR SIGUDU: I have no knowledge of what you have just read.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair if I may, just for the record, that is that Mr Manqele has not yet testified.  It is indeed true that this application or statement as read by Ms Thabete is indeed pertained on page 14 and 15 of his application.  It is however my instruction from the applicant that the version given in his general amnesty application, his indemnity application - you will see that is was superseded by a later application, and it is my instruction now that the information in this statement is indeed not entirely truthful.

MS THABETE: Can I proceed, Mr Chair?  So Mr Sigudu ...(intervention)

DR TSOTSI: As you're saying, the whole statement is incorrect or is it portions of it that are incorrect?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Dr Tsotsi.   It is my instruction that the contents of that indemnity application is in toto incorrect, as it was done for reasons other than amnesty and that the later amnesty application, it's my instructions, is indeed the correct version of the happenings.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Mr Sigudu, you have said you don't know anything about the statement that was written by Mr Manqele and I take what your legal representative is saying, but upon reading your statement on page 5, you say, it is the second paragraph
"We decided to embark on a robbery of a specific person, known to Wiseman Kanyele"
Can you maybe explain to the Committee members how was the victim known to Mr Wiseman Kanyele?

MR SIGUDU: I have no idea as to how he knew the victim.

MS THABETE: So are you saying that he just said he knew her but he didn't explain how he knew her, is that what you are saying?

MR SIGUDU: What I am saying is he knew her but I did not know as to how he knew the person, or the victim rather.

MS THABETE: Before Mr Manqele came back to report to you about the said victim, did you know her at all?

MR SIGUDU: I did not know the victim.

MS THABETE: Sorry, I just want to go back to your plan.  I didn't quite get your answer as to what the plan was, but I won't pursue that question any further.  What I want to find out from you is, in your plan did it come about, were there any intentions to kill the said victim?

MR SIGUDU: No, that did not come across.  This is why I am here to apply for amnesty in front of this Committee.

MS THABETE: Can you explain then to the Committee Members how the victim was killed and why, if it wasn't your intention to do so?

MR SIGUDU: The late or the deceased, the way I looked at this whole thing, the way things tend to be and tend to happen, ...(indistinct) was shot by Manqele, but it wasn't our intention to go and kill.

MS THABETE: I don't think you have answered my question as such.  How was she killed and why was she killed?  I understand that Mr Manqele killed her, but how did this happen and why did it happen?

MR SIGUDU: The way she died, the victim that is, I heard this gunshot suddenly and when I looked around I realised that she was already shot and I fled.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know when you participated in the robbery that your colleagues were armed?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, I knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think they had firearms with them during this robbery?

MR SIGUDU: Well, I think - I won't say maybe that I know for sure why they had firearms with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us.

MR SIGUDU: Well I think they had firearms.  They will tell you they will furnish you with the information regarding why they had firearms at that given point in time because they are present.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you.  What did you think could happen there with these firearms.  I want to know what is going through your head.  I will ask them when they ...(indistinct), but what went through your head at the time?

MR SIGUDU: I think at the time when this happened I was still young, very young, I will not have been in a position to think competently, but what I knew was that we were going there to rob a certain person.  That much I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: With firearms, not so?

MR SIGUDU: They had firearms in their possession, those in my company.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew they had firearms that time?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, I knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think they were going to do with these firearms?

MR SIGUDU: Well, the way the whole thing was, I did not know as to what those firearms were going to be used for and what they were thinking about those firearms, but what I know is that and what I knew was that we were going to rob a certain person but I could not tell what went on in their minds.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking you what went on in their minds, I am asking what happened in your mind.  I will ask them about their minds when they testify.  What did you expect was going to happen with those firearms?

MR SIGUDU: If I also had a firearm in my possession, I think I would be in a better position to answer your question now, but I don't think I am going to answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I hear you correctly, you are not going to answer the question?

MR SIGUDU: This is a difficult question for me to answer because I did not have a firearm in my possession, it would have been better if I also had a firearm in my possession and you were asking me a question relating to me as to what was I going to do with the firearm or what were my intentions of carrying the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's get onto the actual business then of the use of the firearms.  Do you, or did you associate yourself with the killing of that woman or not, when she was shot?