Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR WILLS: That wasn't against any policy or orders of the IFP?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR WILLS: And again, this was well known by the leadership and encouraged by the leadership?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, unfortunately I am not in a position to know how high that leadership went, but to be specific, I know for example or I am told for example that this was encouraged by persons like Bebebeyela and Mrs Mbuyasi in eSikhawini?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: The way certain specific targets were identified, was also varied, but you mentioned something that Mr Mkhize alludes to in his affidavit, and I refer you to page, I refer the Committee to page 231 of the bundle.
	That is to the effect that the IFP leadership on the ground, would determine who the problematical UDF persons were?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that that would be communicated back to you and you would send the defensive group in?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, Mr Mkhize speaks in his affidavit of a meeting at the Hlangelani hall in eSikhawini where you weren't present, but where a grouping of the eSikhawini IFP leadership were, and again that included Mrs Mbuyasi and Bebebeyela, where certain problematical people were identified.  Would you regard this as being consistent with your experience of the general nature of the identification of targets?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is not correct.  They used to use the normal procedure.

MR WILLS: If Mkhize is to say for example that and I will just turn to that section if you will just bear with me - I am sorry, if I can just return to that point later, I can't find that immediately.
	My understanding is, I will continue with that point, my understanding is that the local leadership if they found somebody that was problematical, they would list that person and by that I don't necessarily mean that it was a written list, but they would compile a list of UDF or ANC people that they wanted to get rid of?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And that this list would be filtered into the system and then action would be taken by various hit squads in response to those people and the chances are that they would be attacked?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  I just want to go through some of the aspects of the affidavits of the individual persons that I represent very briefly.
	You know, I want to deal firstly with the fourth applicant, Mr Mbambo, you know Mr Mbambo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I know him very well.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that he was brought to a meeting in Ulundi by Mr Mkhize, the fifth applicant?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And it was then that the hit squads were described to him?  You were present at that meeting?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And M.Z. Khumalo was also present at that meeting?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And Langeni was also present at that meeting, Captain Langeni?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You are more commonly known by the name of Mhlanduna?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And do you have another code name?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Several names, yes.

MR WILLS: Mbambo refers to the name Nikky, were you known by that name?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is also one of the names I used to use.

MR WILLS: Do you remember an issue where a decision was taken to assassinate a person by the name of Teliwe Makwanasi?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I don't.

MR WILLS: Do you remember a meeting at Ulundi at Prince Gideon Zulu's house, let me just go through the details.  You must be careful when you answer the questions Mr Luthuli, you must wait for me to finish, because this is important.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Okay.

MR WILLS: It is claimed by the applicants, the applicants I represent, in fact by the fourth and fifth applicant, that at one stage they attended a meeting at Ulundi when you were present, and Prince Gideon Zulu was present at Prince Gideon Zulu's house, where there was a debate about how the fourth applicant, Mr Mbambo, had been - the UDF had attempted to frame him in some stolen vehicle saga, do you recall a discussion of that nature?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I remember that saga.

MR WILLS: And at that meeting Prince Gideon Zulu gave the order that the person in the UDF who was supposedly motivating this frame up of the fourth applicant, was a person known as Nathi Gomedi, that that person should be killed, because the whole hit squad operation must not be exposed?  Is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And then, can you recall as a direct consequence of that meeting, that Prince Gideon Zulu organised a car from Ulundi and that this car was in fact delivered to Mr Mbambo and the fifth applicant, Mr Mkhize in order for them to conduct this operation?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: At the same time of that meeting, I don't know if you will recall but my instructions are that there was also an issue discussed where a male nurse was going to be killed, and that was a person by the name of Khumalo who worked at the Eshowe hospital.  Is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now turning to Mr Hlongwane the seventh applicant very briefly, he confirms what you say in your affidavit, that he was taken to Mkuze camp to be hidden from the South African Police, you have mentioned that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: He also indicates that it was largely as a result of your intervention and your orders in fact, that he be sent to assist the Black Cats in Ermelo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that by that assistance he interpreted that as he must go to Ermelo and he must sort out the UDF and use any means possible to get rid of the UDF in that townships around Ermelo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And he had your authority to do this?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Then after a while, you asked him to come back to eSikhawini is that not correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: So it was directly again as a result of your intervention that whilst he was operating in Ermelo, you asked him to come back to eSikhawini because he was needed there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And then you posted him at Mayor Bebebeyela's home?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you indicated to Mkhize and to Hlongwane that Hlongwane would join Mkhize's unit and strengthen them up?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you were happy because you knew that Hlongwane was a loyal and fearful soldier?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: You wouldn't have sent somebody there who wasn't very successful in military operations?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I would not have.

MR WILLS: You also know, sorry I have got the numbers mixed up Mr Chairperson, I am terribly sorry, when I have been referring to the fourth applicant, I have actually been meaning the fifth applicant.
	The fifth applicant is Mr Mbambo, the fourth applicant is Mr Ndlovu, do you know him?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MR WILLS: When did you meet him?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: From Caprivi, I met him when he came from Caprivi at Hammersdale.

MR WILLS: Now, he claims in his application that he was operative in that Hammersdale, Mpumalanga area under your instruction?