Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

CHAIRPERSON: We are about to commence the application of Mr Botha, Kruger, Wasserman, Steyn and van der Westhuizen concerning the deaths of Ndaba and Shabalala.  Are we ready to begin?

MR VISSER: May it please you Mr Chairman.  Yes we are.  For the record my name is Louis Visser and I act on instructions of Wagener Muller for all of the applicants which you have just mentioned, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman just before we call our first witness, just to recoup a little bit.  You will recall that we handed up to you at the inception of these hearings an Exhibit A which is a general background document.  May we immediately request that that still remains Exhibit A  also in this hearing, Mr Chairman?  We also handed up to you, which we asked you to attach to Exhibit A a chapter extracted from "The Other Side of the Story" by Stadler, which you accepted or received as Exhibit B Mr Chairman, you will recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Did we give it a designation at that time?

MR VISSER: I believe it was Exhibit B Mr Chairman, yes.  I must confess I'd forgotten about that fact in the meantime, but that was, because the pages were not paginated of Exhibit A, I believe that might have been the reason why you designated that to be Exhibit B.

MR LAX: Is this the document which you are...(intervention)

MR VISSER: No that is Exhibit C, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't given it any designation.

MR VISSER: the Gale Wannenberg document, as it's become to be called, is the Exhibit C.

CHAIRPERSON: Now which one is the Exhibit B. Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: That's the one headed, it's a page numbered 110 and it says Chapter 17, Operation Vula and it looks like this, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(mike off) in and this Operation vula and this commences at page 110 and ends at page 120 with an annexure to it?

MR VISSER: B.  That I don't know, Mr Chairman.  I don't know that document at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I beg your pardon.  So now you're referring to a document from page 110 to 120?

MR VISSER: That is Exhibit B, yes Mr Chairman, B for Bravo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: And C is the document which we explained to you at the beginning of the hearings as the document which we received from the TRC and that is the Gail Wannenberg document, Mr chairman, which you had before you a moment ago.  That is Exhibit C.  That's the one that looks like this.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: It has a fax stamp on the top.  Yes, those are the documents Mr Chairman, as far as the background is concerned, that will be relevant pertinently to the present incident.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, can we request the exhibits to be repeated please?  The exhibits to be repeated.

MR VISSER: Exhibit A we all know about.  Are you with us?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Exhibit B is the one that says Chapter 17. That's an extract, Mr Chairman, from the submissions to the Truth ...(indistinct)

ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Now Exhibit C is a document which is prepared by, who did you say it was?

MR VISSER: We received it from the TRC Mr Chairman through Ms Gail Wannenburg.  You will see her name at the top on the fax stamp.  That was received in November last year when we were here before your brother, Justice Wilson and that Panel with some other amnesty applications.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that?

MR VISSER: I just wanted to remind you, Chairperson and nothing more, that those are the documents that form the backdrop to the present incident particularly.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR VISSER: We don't intended to go through it again, we've done so before, Mr Chairman, you will recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but when it is relevant to any particular portion you will draw our attention to it.

MR VISSER: Certainly, certainly, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thanks very much.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we have also prepared, in the case of all the applicants, statements, brief statements of their evidence to assist you.  We beg leave to hand that up and Botha's statement will then become Exhibit D one would assume, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that will be Exhibit D.  Have you got it here?

MR LAX: Right there in front of your, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  This is Exhibit D?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to hand in the others just now, or...?

MR VISSER: We'll hand them up in due course, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, so you've got Exhibit D.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there is only one last aspect which I will fail in my duty if I don't remind you of it and that is that when Botha gave evidence before you in the Cele matter when we dealt with Operation Vula background, you will recall that we gave you a reference to the evidence which he gave before Justice Wilson and his Panel in November last year, in the record of Ndwandwe and we gave you the reference pages.  I don't know whether you require me to give you those pages again.  I must say I haven't got it.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps at some stage, it could be convenient.

MR VISSER: My attorney ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: One is with so many documents here.

MR VISSER: Yes.  We'll give you those references Mr Chairman, it's about 100 pages which are relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: May I then call Col Botha to give evidence?  He is available, ready to take the oath Mr Chairman and he'll give his evidence in Afrikaans.

JOHN WILLS: For the record Mr Chairman, my name is John Wills, I am appearing on behalf of the family members of the deceased Shabalala.  I am at this time standing in for my colleague, Adv Poswa, who is representing the family members of the deceased Ndaba.  I'd like to place on record that as regards Exhibits A, B and D, that the first time I've seen these documents is as they've been handed up now, Mr Chairman, I haven't had recourse to them, but I'm not suggesting that we slow the proceedings down, we'll use the time outside of normal hours to peruse the documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Exhibit A forms a background to a number of applications in which the Security Police were involved, so it is the political background and you may have been acquainted with it in some other application, but you are at liberty to look through it at a time when it's convenient to you.

JOHN WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But where counsel is going to make specific reference to page, paragraph and so on, obviously you'd be entitled at that stage to go through it.

JOHN WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I must apologise to my learned friend, Mr Wills, I did not ignore him intentionally, it just slipped my mind to look in that direction and as far as the papers are concerned, Mr Chairman, all that we can say is that such are the hazards of this processes, that one is confronted with papers at times when perhaps it's even inconvenient and we've got to make the best of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

H J P BOTHA: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, you have already  testified before this Amnesty Committee is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: You gave a very brief overview to the Committee of your understanding of Operation Vula and Operation Butterfly, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: You've also testified before Justice Wilson and other Committee members in November of last year and there you gave a more complete picture of the background which we are now referring to?

H J P BOTHA: Correct, yes.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm your evidence which you gave then and which you also gave last week as well as all the references which you made in your evidence?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, I confirm it.

MR VISSER: And you also incorporate it into your evidence today?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Your application is found in the Ndaba bundle, pages 1 to 25, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.