Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR DONAN: That was about the time that we were going into the New South Africa weren't we?

MS KOTZE: Ja but that was before the time of the Truth and Reconciliation and the amnesties, yes.

MR DONAN: When there was the possibility that those who have done wrong might be punished?

MS KOTZE: I don't think it came - you know that was the issue at that stage personally, because it didn't come up in the discussions with us.

MR DONAN: Well let's deal with what his condition was up to then.  He had received a medal and did he tell you that he testified at a number of trials?

MS KOTZE: Yes.

MR DONAN: And did he testify that these trials, or tell you that these trials were in 1987, '88, '89, '90, did he tell you that?

MS KOTZE: Yes, yes.

MR DONAN: And that he had no difficulty remembering at those times.

MS KOTZE: But what you will see is that the post-traumatic stress was caused by his work circumstances but it was, as far as I am concerned, it was compounded by all the other stress experiences that he had.  It built up to a point where the man then just cracked, physically broke down.

MR DONAN: I understand that, but what we are trying to do is first of all attribute a cause.  Wasn't the cause really the fact that Mr Benzien was faced with these proceedings and with ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: I think it's a very simple way to look at it, because if you look at his history he had a very stressful job.  And I think the damage came from the job more than it came from these proceedings.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Donan could I just enquire is it conceded that he has got this stress but you are arguing about the causes?  His deeds were the cause of his own downfall?

MR DONAN: I am challenging the diagnosis because this particular diagnosis has certain consequences, according to this witness, and those consequences are blocking.  If the diagnosis is wrong well then we can't automatically assume the consequences, the blocking exist.  Because this is the only basis upon which the blocking has been put up, not on any other.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I interrupt there at that point Mr Donan if you don't mind.  I understand Mr Donan in his previous questions to be suggesting that, if I may use that word, this onset....

MS KOTZE: Onset?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, materialised and this is what he was asking, as a result of the realisation that a new era was coming to dawn in the country when people could be held accountable.

MS KOTZE: Are you talking about when he was, when the fear became prominent that he might be called in to these hearings, or are you talking previously like Advocate Donan suggested that in '94 ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That's right, that's what he's suggesting.

MS KOTZE: ...there was already an atmosphere?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, he's suggesting that actually.  He's suggesting that the onset was triggered by a possible realisation in 1994 that with the new era coming in he might be held accountable.

MS KOTZE: You see that's very difficult for me because I'm not a politician and I cannot make, you know I can't tell you what the - you know I'm not clued up on exactly what the atmosphere, the political atmosphere, so I cannot say to you yes or no in that regard,  maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You see implicit in his argument it is a very unkind suggestion, I am not saying whether that suggestion is justified or not but it is a suggestion unfavourable to the applicant that - oh no this thing really never set on, after all in - he testified in 1988 he had no problems, his memory was well, now come 1994 suddenly there is an onset.  He seems to be suggesting that oh this is not quite the case.  Now you disagree with him I think?

MS KOTZE: Sorry?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You disagree with Mr Donan's suggestion, hidden suggestion?

MS KOTZE: No I am not disagreeing I am just saying I cannot give a yes or no, I can't give an explicit answer on that because it's something that I cannot answer in retrospect.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now what are the objective factors, the factors which an outsider can see which you can give to us as outsiders which will indicate that the onset came in only in 1994 or as early as 1994, wherever ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: I don't know exactly when it started, I can honestly say to you I don't know when this man's stress levels became so high that they were abnormal.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What are the objective indicators to show that there is an onset anyway?

MS KOTZE: I could only judge from what I saw in front of me when he started his therapy with me in 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you see?

MS KOTZE: I saw - is that what - can I answer to you  and see ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS KOTZE: What I saw is what is in my report, all those symptoms ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In 1994?

MS KOTZE: In 1994 he was not my main patient, his wife was my patient.  I could just draw indirect conclusions about the fact that his stress was becoming abnormally high and that his wife picked it up and she as a result became concerned and worried about his mental state.

CHAIRPERSON: Up to that stage you didn't have anything to do in assessing Mr Benzien?

MS KOTZE: No because his wife was then my patient.

CHAIRPERSON: She was your patient.  When was the first time that ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: She had previous, she had a previous episode the year before that, I cannot tell you at this stage when, but she had a previous episode of depression where she was also treated with medication.

CHAIRPERSON: When was the first time?

MS KOTZE: I saw her in 1994 for the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that you first saw Mr Benzien, to make an assessment of Mr Benzien?

MS KOTZE: I saw him 1994 for his wife because I drew him in as a family member to discuss her situation with him and to discuss his, shall we call it, his part, his role in causing the stress that led to her depression.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on Mr Donan.

MR DONAN: Thank you, I don't want ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, sorry before you do that, Mr Chair has indicated to you whether what findings were there that led you to say that he did have such an onset ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: Sorry, yes, yes, we didn't ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Just refer me to the paragraph, you don't have to read that, just refer me to the paragraph, I will read it myself.

MS KOTZE: Sorry?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Refer me to the paragraph in the report.

MS KOTZE: Refer you to the paragraph ...(intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You don't have to read it, I'll read it myself.

MS KOTZE: Okay.  I will just go through the report quickly.  I think there was a - the second paragraph on page 1 at the bottom there where I said that they had a traumatic experience and I said that his strange behaviour was upsetting. I then say there the reason for this mental breakdown was that the emotional turmoil he had kept to himself for years had come to a boiling point and his body and mind broke down as a result of the excess stress.  So what I am saying there is it's excess stress.  In other words it was just this additional - it was like the last straw that broke the camel's back.  And I say there also because of his training as a police officer he believed that he should not discuss his work or his problems with people outside the force, and this included his family, and the stress of not speaking to anyone about his problems however impaired his health.  So that's basically what I base it on.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: But these problems as I understand it all took place a long time before.  As I understand your evidence to us it was - he disliked intensely what he did in the Security Police.

MS KOTZE: Yes he did.