Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, if a person's coming out of a shebeen, how do you know if he's IFP or ANC?

MR NDLOVU: You mean if a person would be coming from the shebeen?  As I explained that things were happened so abruptly and we were in a state of shock.  I wouldn't have taken notice of such things as I have already explained that as soon as  I saw IFP going towards the upper direction I did not notice about other things.

ADV SIGODI: I will ask you for the last time.  I am saying to you, if you meet a person walking, simply walking, not in your group, how would you identify that person, or tell that person is an IFP or ANC?

MR NDLOVU: From my knowledge I knew IFP people and others who belonged to ANC.  I knew them as well because we were in the same residential area.  It will be an outsider that I will not know, but it will be easier if, it will be very easy as well for me to identify an outsider in the area because we all know one another, so a stranger or a visitor I could also tell.

ADV SIGODI: The person who came out of the shebeen, did you know him?

MR NDLOVU: That person at the shebeen I did not know.

ADV SIGODI: Can you say if he was an outsider or if he was a resident in that area?

MR NDLOVU: I would say that that was an outsider, because we will have outsiders coming to our area as well, to drink.

ADV SIGODI: In other words when you assaulted him you did not know whether or not he was an ANC or an IFP supporter?

MR NDLOVU: What led, as we did that we did not know, and the reason why we assaulted him even 'though he was not a resident there, what way he missed it was when he fled.  He ran away.  Maybe if he did not we would not have assaulted him but he started running away.

CHAIRPERSON: Which you also had tried to do earlier in the day.

MR NDLOVU: You mean assaulting a person?

CHAIRPERSON: No, running away.  You tried to run away but you couldn't because the river was full.  Now you kill a man because he tries to run away.

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I was also running away to escape this whole thing and run away from this whole incident.

ADV SIGODI: Just one, the last aspect.  How many times did you hit him?

MR NDLOVU: No I would not be able to remember.  I know I hit him and again, again, but I don't know as to how many times I hit him.

ADV SIGODI: Do you remember who stabbed him with a spear?

MR NDLOVU: My Lord it will be difficult for me to say as to who stabbed him with a spear because when we were assaulting him the sticks and he fell immediately, I don't think it was a spear.  I don't think it was only a spear.  I could not also tell as to who stabbed.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know any people in that group, when this assault took place?

MR NDLOVU: You mean my group?

ADV SIGODI: Yes, the people who were with you when this assault took place on that person from the shebeen.

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Who were those?

MR NDLOVU: It was Bongi Zwane, myself, Umnomiya, and Ijimani.  I don't remember the others.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks Chair, just one thing to follow up.  The man who came out of the shebeen, clearly was not somebody who had been part of the attack on you.  Is that not correct?

MR NDLOVU: I wouldn't know, because where this whole thing happened, at the ground that is, it's not too far away from the shebeen.

MR LAX: But you said all the others fled.

CHAIRPERSON: And also the likelihood of an attacker carrying a briefcase?

MR NDLOVU: We did not know in, whether that briefcase of his had weapons or what.  But what sparked this whole thing, as soon as they heard that the people were approaching the shack they therefore ran away.  That led to their, to this, and if only they did not run away, maybe came and explained themselves to us, and also brought to our attention the fact that they were not part of this whole thing, or of whatever problem, we couldn't maybe have attacked the person.  But the reason why we had to do what we did was because he then attempted to run away.

MR LAX: Isn't it so Mr Ndlovu that you weren't really in the mood to listen to any explanations from anybody.  You were in a state of shock, you were attacking, you weren't interested in explanations from anybody.  You just wanted to kill at that stage.

MR NDLOVU: Yes that is true.  We were in a state of shock as I said earlier on and when you are in that state you can not do anything right, you will end up doing wrong things as a result of being shocked.  That is very true.

MR LAX: You see, the reason why I'm saying this to you, is, it's clear from your evidence why you went up the hill rather than try to run away to another place.  You said you joined the IFP group because you were going to attack.  That was in your evidence-in-chief.  Isn't that so?

MR NDLOVU: No, about attack no, no.  We wouldn't have attacked.  But there was this fight erupted, and the people we were fighting with were coming, approaching, coming, going downwards, and they were there intending to fight and attack.  If we were not intending to attack we wouldn't have taken that direction, because right towards, or right next to us there was a river.  How could you attack and yet there's a river behind you?  Where will you run?

MR LAX: Mr Ndlovu your evidence-in-chief was quite clear.  You said, you were asked, why did you go up.  Mr Draht in fact asked you that question.  You said, "...the intention was to go and fight, to meet the group coming from the up, the ANC group.  We went up with the IFP group."  That was your evidence-in-chief.  He still asked you which group and then you explained it was the ANC group that was coming down.  So it was clear your intention was to go up there and fight with these people.  You weren't interested in running away.

MR NDLOVU: Yes, fighting would have fought, would have run away if we could tell or if we saw that he fight was intensifying.

MR LAX: Now what I would like to know from you is, you were unarmed at that stage.  How were you going up there to fight?  You didn't have any arms on you at all?  Not even a stick.  You only picked that up much later.  What were you going to fight with?

MR NDLOVU: When I started, when I realised that there were many and after Mkhize told me that there was a fight, that's when I got shocked and realised that I am going there unarmed.

MR LAX: Sorry, if you can just sit a little bit away from the mike.

MR NDLOVU: ...(not translated)

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon.

MR NDLOVU: When I got out from the house I did not intend to fight.  I intended to run away and escape and go to these others.  I did not intend to fight.  It was not my intention to fight.

MR LAX: Now you've told us that, the explanation given by you on paragraph 10(b) on page 4, except for the bits about you being a victim of the ANC, the rest of it you don't know.

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

MR LAX: What I would like to know is then, what is then the reason why this fight started?  And how you justify your actions.

MR NDLOVU: When this fight erupted, well I don't have any evidence that I could, or anything that I could say to this forum, in relation to that.  I was an ordinary person who was working and come back home late in the afternoon.  Even on that day in question I was at work on that Saturday.  I was at work so that which I'm trying to say here is that I only had limited time at home.  Most of my time I would be away at work and come home late, and I'll only be sleeping.  I will not know the situation in the area, especially before this incident.  I don't know.

MR LAX: It's been suggested that the area was peaceful and that most disputes were resolved by discussion and negotiation.  You hadn't heard of any previous violence before this incident?

MR NDLOVU: If my memory serves my right as I said earlier on that I had limited time at home or in the area.  Most of my time I spent at work and away. ...(intervention)