Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

MS PRETORIUS: Do you still maintain that you don't know the colour of the Koyoco that was parked in front of your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not want to commit to that.  As I said yesterday, Afrikaners are very clever, they respray these vehicles every day.  They would respray them every two days.

MS PRETORIUS: But that is not the question, the question is Mr Baloyi, what the colour was when you saw it, not what it was two days later or three days, that   night when you saw it what was the colour of the Koyoco?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot comment on it.  I do not want to commit myself, I just know that it was a Koyoco.

MS PRETORIUS: Why did you not go and hide when the attack took place?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Hide myself, what for?

MS PRETORIUS: From the attackers, Mr Baloyi.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They had attacked me.  I would say I could not have hid myself before the attack because they had not yet come to attack me.  I would have expected to hide myself at the time of the attack itself.

MS PRETORIUS: Well that's what I also would like to know, why did you not hide yourself because you hid your family, why did you yourself not hide?  You saw them at two of your neighbours and you did not hide, why not?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am the man of the household, I am the one who was supposed to take care of everything that would be a threat to the safety of my family because I had to protect my family.

MS PRETORIUS: Is it not true that you did go and hide?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not.

MS PRETORIUS: Because I want to put it to you that my instructions are there were no police taking part in that attack on that night and that your deduction after the attack is wrong.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That's what you are saying.

MS PRETORIUS: My instructions are also that Mtwana Zulu was definitely not part of the attack and that you made a mistake when you thought it was him calling the names, because there were many people in that street that knew the children's names.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You are saying that.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Yes, Mr da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, I want to ask you a number of questions to clarify certain aspects.  During the attack or when you saw these vehicles, I understand your evidence  to be that you saw five vehicles in the immediate vicinity of your home, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: No, he didn't say that in the immediate vicinity.  I think there was one police vehicle in front of his house.  Two went down Umzimvubu and then all the way towards the robots and joined the other two which were at Metal Box.

MR DA SILVA: I accept that, Mr Chairman, I put the question incorrectly.
	Let me ask you this, the vehicle that you saw in front of your house, I understand your evidence to be that it was a police vehicle, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was not an ordinary police vehicle, it was a Koyoco, the one that is used by the police.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree that your evidence is, and that's how I understand your evidence, that is was a police Koyoco?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, a police Koyoco.

MR DA SILVA: Then you saw - did you see a police Koyoco and did you see a police Nyala approaching this police Koyoco in Amatola Street?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, it went towards Metal Box.  That is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one, you mean the ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: And the other left Amatola and joined the others so that they became three.  They got off the vehicle and they fired in the air.

MR DA SILVA: Yes.  Just concentrate on the question I'm asking you, Mr Baloyi.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your question?

MR DA SILVA: My question was;  the vehicles that he saw in Amatola Street, was that a police Koyoco and was it joined by a police Nyala? 	You've corrected me, Mr Baloyi, the vehicles that you saw near Metal Box, was that a police Koyoco and was that a police Nyala?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Then you saw two further vehicles travelling along Umzimvubu Street, which followed the crowd to the footbridge, were those two police Koyocos, is that what you saw?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, two Koyocos.

MR DA SILVA: Right.  Now apart from the vehicles that you saw in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, I'm not talking about those vehicles, you only saw police vehicles and you saw no military vehicles in Boipatong township, in the township itself.  Is that your evidence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, the military vehicles were parked far away, there were only two of them.  They were near the gate.  I did not see them inside Boipatong.

MR DA SILVA: I understood your evidence yesterday to be that you saw these military vehicles in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.  You're talking about a gate now, what do you mean by the "gate"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't understand now.

MR DA SILVA: Let me try and simplify the question.  I understood your evidence to be that the vehicles that you saw in Boipatong were police vehicles, they were not military vehicles, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Because my instructions are that there were no military vehicles during the attack in Boipatong, so you must agree with that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Inside the township really I cannot say,  I only know about my position in Bafokeng Street.

MR DA SILVA: Yes. I'm talking about what you saw.  You saw no military vehicles at any stage during the attack, in Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not.

MR DA SILVA: Did you come with the other witnesses this morning in a bus?  I understand - or let me put it more correctly, did you come this morning to this hearing with other people in a bus to this hall, did you travel in a bus?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, we came by bus.

MR DA SILVA: And I presume you got out of the bus and walked down the path and walked through this door into the hall, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Right.  Standing outside in the street were two police vehicles, did you see them?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I saw them.

MR DA SILVA: What type of vehicles are those?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is an Nyala.

MR DA SILVA: So that's a police Nyala?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that's what I hear them say.  I don't know.

MR DA SILVA: Yes.  Now you've testified for two days.  When you went home in the evening, on Tuesday evening and Wednesday evening, did you tell your son, the policeman, either Silo or Pitso, did you tell him: "These people are asking me a lot of questions about the vehicles, please explain to me how these vehicles, what these vehicles are"?  Did you have a conversation along those lines with either of your sons?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not.  I just know that these are police vehicles.  I did not ask them the difference between these vehicles because they do not concern me, they are police vehicles.  I just know it is a Koyoco and this is Nyala.  I would have no reason to ask to what model or make or type this is.

MR DA SILVA: Very well.  You explained to the Committee that a Koyoco is bigger than a Casspir, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: A Casspir is a Koyoco.  The one that is outside here is the smaller one.  I said Koyocos are big and the smallest is Nyala.

MR DA SILVA: Your evidence-in-chief was that
"A Casspir is smaller than a Koyoco"
Are you changing your evidence now?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Look I don't know the names.  They call them Casspirs, they call them Nyala.  I did say that.  The people who know these things are the police.  I suggested to you that you should go and ask my son, he is a police person, a policeman.