Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Yes I did go to Pretoria.

MR VISSER: Was Mr Motsamai a member of the group of persons that went to Pretoria?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is correct, we went with him.

MR VISSER: Did you sign an affidavit?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is that the document before you?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Yes, this is the document Sir.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the contents thereof?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: Did anybody prescribe to you what should be in your affidavit?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Well I learned when I had been explained about these allegations of what was happening.

MR VISSER: Let me ask you this way, is there anything in this affidavit which is not correct or truthful?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: All those things which happened here are those which I saw and then those allegations are not true.

MR VISSER: When did you join the South African Police?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: On the 15th of March 1982.

MR VISSER: And when did you become a member of the security branch in Bloemfontein?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I came here in 1985 in June.

MR VISSER: June '85.  Which section did you work?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I was working under church section.

MR VISSER: And who was your commanding officer?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: My commanding officer was Attie Coetzee.

MR VISSER: Who were the other members of the security branch in the church section?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I was together with Coetzee, Shaw, Erasmus, L.D. Koch, P.A.C Koch, Cronje, N. Killian, Mamome, Motsamai and myself.

MR VISSER: I think you went a little bit quickly, can you just perhaps repeat it?  It was Coetzee, Shaw, Erasmus, Killian, and then you said Koch twice, were there two Kochs?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Yes there are two, it's  L.D. Gogh and P.A.C. Gogh.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Killian, Mamome and Motsomai, are those all the members of that section?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is correct. I forgot about Mr Ramosoeu.

MR VISSER: Ramosoeu?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: R - a - m - o - s - o - e - u, Mr Chairman.

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Yes, it is written that way.

MR VISSER: In 1985/86 more or less how many members in total were there attached to the security branch here in Bloemfontein?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Approximately 60 to 70 or above.

MR VISSER: As far as the allegations against you are concerned, that you acted unlawfully or illegally, what do you say about that?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: To those things I would say I know nothing and I haven't done anything.

MR VISSER: Did you take part in the kidnapping and assault of Mr White Mohape?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No Sir, it's not true.

MR VISSER: Did you take part in a petrol bomb attack on the house of Mr Max Makubalo?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: It's not true, I don't know even where he stays.

MR VISSER: Did you attack ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Before going to the other one, isn't it common cause now that this is Citi's house?

MR VISSER: I believe so, Mr Chairman, but I understood last time that there was some confusion. I filed a reference on the record, it's page 375, but I'm immediately going to put him if he admits that Mr Chairman.
    Did you have anything to do with the attack on the parental home of Mr Citi Mzuzwana?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No Sir, it's not true.

MR VISSER: Or his own home?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Not at all Sir.

MR VISSER: Do you know anything and did you take part in the attack on the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No Sir. I didn't play any role in the attack of Mrs Winnie Mandela's house or clinic.

MR VISSER: Did you participate in an attack on the vehicle of Mr Jannie Mohape?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Or the burning of the minibus of Mr Elijah Mohape?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No Sir, I don't even know that mini bus.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo gave evidence regarding a UDF activist called JJ or Papie, whom he says was murdered in 1986.  Do you know anything about that?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No Sir. I learnt that a certain UDF member has been murdered. I didn't play any role in that, I didn't even know that person.

MR VISSER: Now, were you present - am I going too fast, Mr Chairman?
	Were you present when Oupa Makubalo was arrested?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No Sir, I was not present.  I went to Smithfield, then I learnt later that he has been arrested.

MR VISSER: You heard the evidence here that a vehicle arrived and people shot at him and he was arrested in King street I think it was, that's the incident I'm referring to.  Do you know anything about that?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: What I know is that he has been arrested in relation to Motsamai's informer's murder.  I don't know, I just heard.

MR VISSER: And that person, the informer, was Mr Khoze, is that correct?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In 1986 there was a group of 19 persons who were transferred from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein and who were interrogated here in Bloemfontein.  Did you have anything to do with those 19 detainees?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I only saw those people in the offices. When I enquired, I learned that they were arrested because they tried to skip the country.  I did have a role because I was not in that section, I was in the church section.

MR VISSER: It is also correct that at one stage or another you took some of those people to Glen Police Station?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Yes, I helped because they did not have enough people to help the drivers to take them to the police station so I did take part in the transfer of those people to Glen Police Station.

MR VISSER: Can you remember on what ground they were detained at Glen Police Station?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: If I remember, I remember that they were arrested because they tried to skip the country and that was illegal.

MR VISSER: But when you entered them in the occurrence book - let me ask you, were these people that you took to Glen, were their names entered into whatever the relevant book is in Glen Police Station?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: Yes, that is correct.  Like any other person who has been arrested, their names were entered in the relevant books.

MR VISSER: And what I'm asking you is, on what grounds were they held there, can you remember?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: It is because they were trying to skip the country when they were arrested by the soldiers.

MR VISSER: Alright.  It was suggested that you were told by Tsoametsi, T-s-o-a-m-e-t-s-i and Ramosoeu, R-a-m-a-s-o-e-u, that you and Ngo should bring water and that you should force the comrades to drink two bottles of water each.  Is there any truth in that?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is not true, there was no such command to such kind of a thing.

MR VISSER: And that you participated in forcing those arrested persons to do frog jumps, push-ups and high jump exercises?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: No Sir, I didn't even ask them anything.

MR VISSER: Well, let's cut this short.  Did you participate at all in any assault on any of these people and did you and/or did you see anybody assault them in your presence?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: I did not take part and again I did not see any person assaulting those people in my presence.

MR VISSER: Lastly, it has been suggested that you also took part in the beating up and torturing of a large group of comrades which was arrested and taken to Botshabelo Police Station.  What do you say of that?

REGINALD MXOLISI MTYHALA: That is not true, I did not even go to Botshabelo. I was not even working in Botshabelo.