Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-20

UNKNOWN: You will also agree with me that this places into perspective why Captain Bellingan regards the operation as a 100% successful?
MR P WILLIAMS OBJECTS

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, is the witness or the applicant required to answer what Mr Bellingan thought?

CHAIRPERSON: Is he not really been asked whether his, in his opinion this was why Bellingan thought it was successful, that people had been killed?  Put it differently.  Was this what Mr Bellingan, what you thought Mr Bellingan had wanted to achieve.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is what I think, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree, Mr Mbelo, that this was ruthless precision?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I agree with you, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Is this the challenge of Vlakplaas work which compelled you to maintain an association with Vlakplaas from 1981 to 1993?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was not bound by loving to work at Vlakplaas.  I was bound by the situation that prevailed at that moment whilst Vlakplaas was in operation.

UNKNOWN: We will come to your ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Can we go back for a minute?  I wonder if you can help me on this, I am a little confused.  You have told us that when you first came to the intersection there were no other policemen visible there.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir, when I was in NY111.

CHAIRPERSON: You drove round the block and while you were behind the building you heard shooting?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you came back somebody shot your vehicle?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard that somebody shot Mr Bellingan's vehicle and injured him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And we have been told about these, one man who was lying in the road already, Jabu and Chris, who was shot.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was doing all the shooting?  At that stage, as I understand it, nobody in your vehicle was shooting.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not understand, Chairperson, are you talking about somebody who was shooting me?  Please rephrase your question.

CHAIRPERSON: No, who shot Jabu?  Who could have shot him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: He might have been shot by the policemen who were in NY111, because that is where he fell at the corner of that street.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what policemen were there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Your Honour, as I have explained, according to this map, on the east, the east side bush, there were policemen and on the west side as well.  According to my knowledge, the policemen who were at point A are the one who might have shot Jabu.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is not according to the evidence we have heard.  They said they, Bellingan, as I recollect it, said he saw the body lying there.  Were there other policemen, is that what you are now saying, there were other policemen hiding in the bushes along that road?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Your Honour, there were policemen who had hidden in the bush, according to the briefing at Wingfield in that morning.  Those men were positioned there for the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: And they, the, Christopher and the other four men must have walked past them?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And were there also men positioned in the bush on the other side, on the west side?

INTERPRETER: The witness cannot hear the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there also policemen hidden in the bushes on the west side of the NY1?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Mr Chairman, there were.  I cannot hear my interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: And once you got there, there were four policemen in your vehicle?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: When I passed, when I was with two White Riot Squad members in my car.

CHAIRPERSON: And anybody else?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was the driver and the fourth man was Constable Nobela.

CHAIRPERSON: So, there were four policemen there then?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: (Not translated).

CHAIRPERSON: And were the two, the Sergeant who told you to shoot the man who was trying to surrender, where did he come from?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Your Honour, the policemen on the west side, during the shooting they came nearer to the scene where I was.

CHAIRPERSON: And was he one of those, he was not one of the two Riot Squad people who were in your car?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: May I continue, Mr Chairperson?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: (Not translated).

UNKNOWN: Now, just dealing with your position in the intersection, the Chairperson has just dealt with it as well, in your evidence yesterday you confirmed that when you entered the intersection of NY1 and NY3, you were aware that Jabulanie Miya was already down at point B and Christopher Piet was down at point D shortly afterwards, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I did not hear the last person you mentioned and who was shot before who.

UNKNOWN: When you arrived in the intersection Jabulanie Miya was already down, at point B on your map, and Christopher Piet was down at point D on your map shortly after you arrived in the intersection, that is what you have said, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: So, when the beige van, this is the van in which the guerrillas allegedly were, arrives on the scene,  there cannot be any question of any further shooting in the intersection, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Because you will agree that neither Zabonke Konile nor Mr Mlifie had used his arm?  Do you agree?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The man I shot did not use his firearm at all and Mr Zabonke, I do not believe he did as well.

UNKNOWN: So, to get to the point, when Captain Bellingan creates the impression that at the time that he shoots Zabonke there are still shots flying around him, he is, most certainly, incorrect, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I would say he is lying when he says he was shooting from the east side, but there was some shooting still from the west side.

UNKNOWN: And you will agree that that was in the bush, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall that at the time of the Weaver Trial and at the inquest that bush was measured to be approximately 200 metres to 400 metres away from the intersection?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not recall clearly as to what the distance mentioned there.

UNKNOWN: All right.  Something which I do not have clarity on and which I would like you to clarify for us, is that did you first shoot Mr Mlifie or did Captain Bellingan first shoot Zabonke, which came first?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I would say Mr Bellingan when he shot Mr Zabonke I shot Mr Mlifie immediately after him.  After he had shot Mr Zabonke, that is when I shot Mr Mlifie.

UNKNOWN: Right, so there is no question of the shootings occurring simultaneously, not so?  The shooting of Mr Zabonke and the shooting of Mr Mlifie, they did not occur simultaneously?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, they did not occur simultaneously.

UNKNOWN: Which must mean, then, that by the time you shot Mr Mlifie there were also no shots flying around in the intersection, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that the fact, that when one looks at the video and also at the photographs, you can find  not a single bullet mark in the beige van, that it must serve to confirm that it could not have been the case that there were shots flying all over the intersection, either when Mr Bellingan shot Zabonke or when you shot Mr Mlifie?  Do you agree?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Relating to the question of the killing of Mr Mlifie by yourself, would you tell the Committee who disarmed Mr Mlifie?