Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

JUDGE WILSON: Very well, we will take a short adjournment.  COMMISSION ADJOURNS
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ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE WILSON: ... a chance of talking to your client, have you?

MR NEMANE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the issue which Mr Menera wish to raise was that the relatives of the victims should not think that in saying the things that he is about to say he is, he is bragging to them and they must understand that he is remorseful about the incident.  We have advised him that we will deal with that matter in due course.  However, Mr Chairman, Mr Mpshe raised a second, another difficulty during the, during the adjournment and it is at paragraph, I beg Mr Chairman's pardon.  Yes, Mr Chairman, it is at paragraph 11(b).        The ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, he there names Mrs Winnie Madikazela Mandela as someone who knew about it.

MR NEMANE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  Now, there is some controversy which has arisen apparently emanating from discussions that have previously been held with the officials of the TRC.  It would appear that the officials of the TRC were made to labour under the impression that the reference there to Winnie Mandela is not correct and I am of the view that the reference to Winnie Mandela should remain there and that if the Commission is of the view, therefore, that they should warn Mrs Mandela, then the matter would have to be postponed to enable them to give her notice, to enable them to give her notice of these proceedings.

JUDGE WILSON: There is a further matter in that regard is there not?  If you look at the evidence of Menera, which I do not know if your folder is the same as ours, it follows immediately after the indictment.
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MR NEMANE: I have not been provided with a file as such, Mr Chairman, but ...

JUDGE WILSON: You have got a copy.

MR NEMANE: ... I have something that starts at 277, a judgment that starts at page 277.

JUDGE WILSON: No.

MR NEMANE: Are you referring to that judgment?

JUDGE WILSON: This is not a judgment.  This is the evidence of your applicant, a transcript of his evidence.

MR NEMANE: I do not have that, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well.  He was asked at the bottom of the first page what made you politicised in 1985?  He says he was under the influence of Winnie Mandela as well as Morgan Pashlane.  At the time was Mrs Winnie Mandela living in Brandfort?  I was staying at Winnie Mandela's house.  Now at the time who was the political leader, what was the political role that was played by Mr Morgan Pashlane?  Mr Pashlane was the Chairperson of the Democratic Front at the time.  It seems that the connection is, that he was one of the people who resided at her house and my recollection is, and I speak subject to correction here, that there has been information that, in other proceedings, that there were a number of young men residing there who took an active part in various political activities.  That is so, is it not?

MR NEMANE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: So it appears that you are right in saying that the reference appears to be a direct reference, not something that is there by mistake.

MR NEMANE: That is correct, my Lord.

JUDGE WILSON: What is your attitude, Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, my attitude then will be that since BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
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we did not serve document on Winnie Mandela due to, as my learned friend has already indicated, the discussion between our office and the ANC office, then the only best avenue,  in the name of justice, is we have the matter postponed in order to serve the necessary document on her, Mr Chairman, and on the basis of what the Chair has ...

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I do not know ...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... has effected.

JUDGE WILSON: ... what he is going to say.  It may well be that that is the only mention he makes of her and that, really, she is not implicated in any way in any wrong doing, but that is not a matter that one can pre-judge.  Do you agree?  It, the applicant has stated in his application, as we have been or had our attention drawn to, because he was asked in 10(b) which says if so, state particular of such order or approval and the date thereof if known, the name and address of the person who gave such order or approval and then he says the ANC Youth League underground structure issued the order and we carried it out, Winnie Mandela knows about this.  Now, one cannot say from that whether she knew about it beforehand and approved it or she knows about it and disapproved strongly.  He does not make it clear, but I think in the circumstances caution would demand that she should have been served.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, she should have, when I say served she should have been given notice of the mention that is made by her, about her in the application.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: So what do you apply for this matter to be adjourned too?
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, on the basis of what my learned friend has said that the portion as reflected on the application should stand, then it puts an obligation on me, now, to serve on her formally unless if the Chairman and the Committee say the Chair condones her not having been served, then we can continue with the matter.

JUDGE WILSON: I do not ...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But there is the, the spirit in which it has been put by the, by my learned friend is that it remains as is as and if then she becomes an implicated person, then she needs to be served formally, then the only avenue would be a postponement to do things, to put things in proper perspective.

JUDGE WILSON: Because I, I think one must have regard to the persons involved and Mrs Mandela, by reason of her connection with the State President and her own political activities, is a prominent figure in our country and I have no doubt if her name is mentioned at all by this applicant, that fact will be given publicity.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And it is only right, I think, that in those circumstances she should be aware of the fact and if she wishes to take any steps in that regard that she is able to do so.  I do not think it is necessary in every case where somebody is mentioned if there will be no adverse result by not informing them, but one does not know here.  I do not certainly know what he is going to say and I think it would be wiser to accede to the request that the matter be removed from our role and you would be given an opportunity to serve her and anyone else and set down again.  I think it should be noted at the time that the matter has not proceeded, it
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was merely called on and that it is accordingly not a part heard matter which requires the same three members of the Committee to sit to hear it.  It can be set down as a fresh matter.  Matter is removed from the role.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As the Chair pleases.

MR NEMANE: As the Chair pleases.  Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, may I be excused, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct).

MR NEMANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct).

MR NEMANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if ...

JUDGE WILSON: ... that proper arrangements will be made that any documentation that is available is made available to the applicants.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be done, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: I speak in particular of the ...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Judgment.

JUDGE WILSON: ... letters that were written.

MATTER POSTPONED: .
BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG