Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: He was very surprised himself at that stage that it happened, and I said to him that I would phone him back, because it's quite difficult to leave messages where we were at Badplaas, so I phoned him back at a later stage, and at that stage he advised me that Mr Clark was arrested and that, I think he was detained, what I can remember, for 48 hours, and then he was released, and after his release, he asked Commandant Roodt to draw the money for the use for Mr Clive Derby-Lewis's legal fees at that stage, and with consultation with me and Commandant Roodt, I said to Commandant Roodt that we should not allow it, because strictly there was not such an instruction from either General Constand Viljoen, General Tienie Groenewald, and that we should not get involved with this matter before we could establish where does the instructions come from.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you eventually speak to Mr Clark about this matter?

MR VISSER: I spoke to Mr Clark after our return from holiday, and at that stage, what I can still remember is that he didn't tell me anything regrading any meetings that he had regarding, or that he was implicated himself.   All that he told me at that stage is that he was arrested, he was detained, he was questioned, and that was it.   He didn't convey to me any implication or any hint that he was involved with this whole operation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you talk to him about his request to Mr Roodt for the money to be used?

MR VISSER: Yes.   He actually asked me that, at one stage, that he wanted to go and draw the money on behalf of Mr Roodt, so I said to him, "Look, the cheque has already been banked", as I said in my application, "on the 30th of March", and if you look at the normal banking procedure, a cheque is cleared within seven days, and by now the people in question, or the holder of the cheque would surely have advised the company that he did not receive the cheque and that it will be a very dangerous, it would put himself into great danger to go to the bank and draw the money, because the cheque would have been, it's very much possible, because it took such a long time for them to make a decision to that point to withdraw the money.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he ask you to be of any assistance in relation to getting the money?

MR VISSER: Yes, as I've said earlier on, there was meetings that we had prior to, I would say in January of '93, January, February, March, there were a lot of the people involved in the right wing at that stage that needed arms and ammunition.   We were also instructed from the people in charge of these and even in meetings with General Constand Viljoen, open meetings, where they openly stated that we should arm ourselves and even prepare for food shortages, as electrical cuts and that type of thing can and might be occurred at that stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Clark ask you to try and persuade Mr Roodt to get money, to get the money for Mr Derby-Lewis's defence?

MR VISSER: As I can remember, he did, but I think at that stage Mr Roodt was adamant that the money will not be used and it must be left where it was.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he give you any reason why he wanted the money to be used for Mr Derby-Lewis's defence?

MR VISSER: No, he didn't gave me any reason why.   He only said that he wanted it at that stage, wanted to use the money for his legal fees.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask him why?

MR VISSER: No, I didn't ask him why.

GEORGE BIZOS: In your conversations with Mr Clark about this matter, did he appear to you to be forthcoming and open, or was he answering your questions quickly and fairly, or did he try to avoid your questions?

MR VISSER: I would say Mr Clark, at that stage, as a result that he was more involved with the right wing, he, in certain aspects he never conveyed to me, I would say more, if I would say important matters, he never conveyed that to me, and I've learnt him to be such a person that if you would ask him a question then he wouldn't tell you.   I respected his viewpoint, and certain aspects I did sometimes ask him and he would say to me, no, it's classified, it's  top secret and he cannot divulge any information to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: In this structure, this right wing structure that you speak of, was there a ranking, and if so, who was, among the three of you, who was the top man, so to speak?

MR VISSER: I would say from the, regarding ranks, in the AWB, yes there were ranks there, at that stage, in the West Rand, regarding the Freedom Front and the Volksfront, there was not, at that stage, as I can remember, there was not specific structures, but I would say that, regarding seniority and regarding classified information, I would Mr Clark was my senior.

GEORGE BIZOS: And where did Mr Roodt fit?

MR VISSER: Mr Roodt fitted in, from the AWB side, he was, as I said earlier on, he was the commandant of certain of the cells in the West Rand.   Why the cell structure, is that at that stage the Security Police used to frequently infiltrate into the activities of the AWB, and that was the reason, I can remember back on a meeting with, that we had in Ventersdorp with Mr Eugene Terreblanche, that he advised us that we start a cell structure to prevent any infiltration from the Security Police.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask Mr Clark what was the basis of his friendship between himself, on the one hand, and Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis on the other?

MR VISSER: I never asked him, I was aware at that stage that he would visit Mr Clive Derby-Lewis and Mrs Clive Derby-Lewis, he used to often tell me that he was preparing their VC's and he would go and eat there and they would invite him over and that's basically all I knew about their friendship.   I never asked him why was he friends with them.   Obviously at that stage Mr Clive Derby-Lewis was a member of the CP, he was one of the leaders of the CP, so I assumed, due to the structure that Mr Clark was in in the area that he operated that, and due to the background of the political events in that time, that it was important for him to be associated with Mr Clive Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was Radio Pretoria or information gathering mentioned in any way in relation to Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis on the one hand and Mr Clark on the other?

MR VISSER: Yes, I remember on quite a few occasions that he had to go through to Radio Pretoria to repair, I think at one stage he had written a computer programme for them, and that's what I can remember from that time at that stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did Mr Clark ever tell you, after his release from arrest, what was in his computer?

MR VISSER: No, he only told me that, after his arrest, that they did confiscate his computer and that they tried to, how can I say, the computer language that he brought up, they tried to brought up the information from the hard disks, but they were not successful, I think he told me at that stage that the sergeant in charge of this operation didn't had so much technical knowledge to bring up the information on his computer.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he tell you what might have been his position if the police did have sufficient knowledge to unlock the information in his computer?

MR VISSER: Ja, he did tell me that he would have been in quite, he could have been in trouble if they brought it up.  I didn't ask him at that stage what information he had on the computer.   If it was linked to the Hani matter I cannot say, as he didn't tell me at that stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

UNKNOWN: May I put my questions first?

UNKNOWN: Mr Visser, you have said that you were involved with right wing groups.   To which groups are you referring?

MR VISSER: I am referring to the Freedom Front, the AWB and the Freedom Front.

UNKNOWN: And the period of time when you were involved, when did it begin?