Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I was not going to report it, because before I or immediately after I have joined the security department, there was something like an aroma from the other Black staff, even Coloureds, saying that oh, are you working with these guys; these guys, in other words, they are very much bad.  There is also another Black guy who disappeared in - while maybe they were busy doing that.  So after that I started maybe asking myself a lot of things, must I still continue maybe working with them or what, but I was worried. It was going to be very much difficult for me to phone head office and say can you please just come and see, Mr Gerber is busy assaulting Samuel Kanaga.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana, is it correct that Mr Brink unlocked the back door, which you referred to?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: It was the key holder, the person who was working there.

ADV PRINSLOO: The key man?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: The key man.

ADV PRINSLOO: Oh, I see.  So it was not necessary for you to break the lock or even attempt to break the lock?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I am the one who went out looking for the key holder so that he must come and open the door, not to break the lock.

ADV PRINSLOO: But Mr Gerber who was employed there would have known that the key holder would have had a key to open the door?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: But maybe he had another impression, why he wanted me to break the lock.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now ... (intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Is it correct that there would be no record kept of anybody going in or out of that door?  There was no guard watching that door?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, since it is a fire escape.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana, Mr Gerber made a call to the investigating officer. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And if I understood your evidence correctly today, you said that he didn't speak to anyone?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, there was no response from the other side of the line, according to him, since I was standing there next to him.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now according to the judgment his Lordship Mr Justice Roos at page 13, Mr Chairman, and I refer to that
"Hy het met iemand daar gepraat en hy het die foon neergesit.  Hy het aangekondig dat die ondersoekbeampte nie beskikbaar was nie."
		(He spoke to someone there and he put the phone down.  He indicated that the investigating officer was not available.")
Did you understand that Mr Mkoana?  And that is with reference to your evidence, which the honourable Judge, Mr Justice Roos summarised.  Any comment about that?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, no comment about that.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now Mr Mkoana, if I understood your evidence correctly, there was a theft of R60 000,00.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And there was a separate case, and that was a robbery. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes.  And the deceased was being questioned with reference to a robbery. Is that your evidence?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: He was questioned for two cases. First they said, they question him for the R60 000,00.  Meanwhile on the other side, even wanted to know the - to get the information from him about the R3,5 million which was the robbery.

HASSAN MALL: I beg your pardon, to what?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: R3,5 million rand, which was a robbery at the basement.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes.  Now Mr Mkoana, you also made reference to certain containers that were found.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That was the information which we, I, we received, me and Frans Oosthuisen during the course of the day through the radio, that there has been an empty container found somewhere by the mine dumps, and which seems that container is related to the same container which was carrying that R60 000,00.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now what was the connection between the deceased and this particular container? If anything at all?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: As far as I know that, I don't think there was any connection, I don't think so, since even the deceased even denies that he has got any information about the missing R60 000,00.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Mkoana, is it correct, the deceased resided in Abel Road, Hillbrow?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Is it correct, subsequent to the 21st of May, at a later stage, an empty container was found in the vicinity where he resided?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, I have got no information on that.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now you say the deceased, he was hanging from a tree at this particular spot?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: But if this rope came undone, then surely the deceased would have fallen on his head?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I beg your pardon?

ADV PRINSLOO: If the rope came undone while the deceased was suspended upside down, then he would have fallen on his head. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: It depends.

HASSAN MALL: What do you mean by that?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: It depends maybe when the rope broke, broke down, it maybe did use other method, you know, that he may not hurt himself maybe.

JUDGE WILSON: Had the knot in the rope come undone?  They must have tied a rope to hold him up, had that come undone when he came down?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Ja, it seems so, Chairperson, because when I went to - the time the rope came undone, I found him lying down so I don't know how, what happened, how did it came undone.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now Mr Mkoana, you and your colleague, Julius Khosa went to buy colddrinks, is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And when you went out to buy colddrinks, you could have reported the conduct of Gerber, Van Eyck and Oosthuisen to the police?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I beg your pardon?

ADV PRINSLOO: You could have reported Mr Gerber and Van Eyck either to the police or to your superiors, as to what they were doing at that particular scene.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: But as I have already said that, I could see that should I make any attempt to report them to the police, my life was going to be in danger.  Maybe I wouldn't be here today to give this evidence. So I knew, because I had the information that a certain guy would disappear in the hands of the security department, at Fidelity Guards. I mean, like the previous years, before I start working there.  So I was scared of my life too, maybe I even disappear or maybe end up being like Samuel Kanaga, being tortured.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mkoana, all we want you to tell us is that you were afraid. Is that what your reason is?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairperson.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It might have been better just to say so.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, Sir.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now you had a good relationship with Mr Daantjie van Wyk, former Brig Van Wyk.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Not a good relationship, he was just my superior.

ADV PRINSLOO: But there was no bad blood between you and Brig Van Wyk?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I beg your pardon?

ADV PRINSLOO: There was no ill feelings between you and Brig Van Wyk. You got on well with him, is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Yes.  And when you made a statement to Brig Van Wyk, you could have told him exactly what transpired, in confidence. Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I have already said that it was not going to help me, since in other words, he is a policeman the same like I being a policeman. If Mr Gerber have said he told him the whole thing, it was going to, it was not going to help me.  If maybe I have said that to him, then maybe that was going to make the matters worse or maybe life difficult for me in that company.

ADV PRINSLOO: And when you made the statement to Brig Van Wyk, you knew that that statement would have been used by the police in order to investigate the disappearance of Samuel?