Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-07

MARY BURTON: Our investigating team have been following up and getting the evidence that we need in order that we be able to make a finding and they have taken a statement from an eye witness in this incident.  He is a person who is presently in prison, but the prison authorities have given permission for him to come and to give additional evidence.  
So I am now going to call him to come to the stage.  I am just making sure that he is available and we can find him.  Can we have Mr Thwane Rotho to the stage.
Mr Rotho you are very welcome - thank you very much for being willing to make a statement and to come here today.  Can you hear me all right on the ear phones?

THWANE ROTHO: Yes I can hear you.

MARY BURTON: Please can you stand to take the oath.
THWANE ROTHO Duly sworn states

MARY BURTON: Do you know Ms Mbekushe.

THWANE ROTHO: Yes, I know Sizakele Mbekushe.  Yes, I know the mother too.

MARY BURTON: I'll ask Ms Seroke then to lead you through the evidence.

MS SEROKE: Sir, do you want to speak in Xhosa or Afrikaans.

THWANE ROTHO: I would like to speak in Xhosa.

MS SEROKE: We thank you for having come here to give evidence in this case.  As a person who was there that day - can you tell us what happened.

THWANE ROTHO: Yes, I can tell you.  On the 4 December we had a meeting.  We were canvassing the youth for a march that was going to be on the 20th of December 1989.  After that  meeting, we left singing - toi-toiing.  We toi-toiing to Swelisha where we stayed.  When we get there in Swelisha, going down Street 10, toi-toiing.  When we got to Street 10, a police van came.   There were a lot of policemen inside.  
A Mr Greyling alighted from the car.  He ask for one of us to go to him.  I went with Comrade Brian Ngobo.  He tried to find out what is happening.  I told him that nothing is happening - we are just toi-toiing, we  are going to disperse in no time, we were from a meeting.
He said we can carry on toi-toiing without violence, however.  He said that when there are cars on the road, we must walk on the pavements.  We continued toi-toiing with his permission.  We got to Street 8, as we approached Mr Ketile Lucas's house - he was a constable at the time.
He was sitting on his veranda with his wife.  His wife then said here are these dogs that threw stones at your house.  I was not sure whether he was referring to the whole crowd or some people within the crowd.  Mr Ketile ran inside.  The group started dispersing - some people ran back towards Street 8.  Other people ran upwards.
There were children lying on the ground.  Agnes Landu - Nosthengelo and I tried to pick the children up, together with Sizakele Mbekushe.  We took the children into Sandile Ndika's yard.  Martin emanated from Mthalatini's house.  He then ran towards a group that was toi-toiing at the bottom of the street - he was shot by Mr Ketile Lucas.  
After he shot had him, I told my - the other comrades that I am going to pick him up.  As I went closer, Sizakele Mbekushe followed.  I was running ahead of him.  Ketile shot again.  Mbekushe then murmured near me.  He was saying he has got me.  Mbekushe ran back -  running up the street.  I continued towards Martin even though there were shootings.  I took Martin in my arms - a certain Comrade Dogo helped me.  We went down the street.
Another constable emanated yet again from Sombekwe's house.  This constable came behind us.  He had intentions of shooting.  As he changed -  comrade Martin was dropped on the ground and comrade Dogo ran off.  I realised I was on my own.  I dragged Sizakele on the ground.  A policeman then came closer.  When I saw that this man had intentions of shooting me, I dropped him and I ran.  I was standing in a corner at Street 9.  I was however able to see what was happening in Street 8.
Ntutuzeli Ngwendla was hitting Sizakele on the head even after he had been shot, he was also kicking him end of Tape 2, Side B ... to take people to Nofemele.  It was an orange car.  In it had comrade Mbekushe and other comrades that were in the car.  The other comrades then asked me to take comrade Mbekushe to the hospital.
Noxegelo then said I must not go.  She was saying that we should be looking after Martin.  He - she was saying that she does not think that Sizakele will live up to the hospital.  I believed her because she had an experience, she was a nurse in Namibia.  I gave instructions to other comrades to take comrade Mbekushe to hospital.  They came back telling me that comrade Mbkushe had died on the way to hospital.  That is  how we parted with comrade Mbekushe.  
The same evening I went on a train to Cape Town.  I went to report this incident to Comrade Moosa who was a lawyer.  I was also trying to raise funds for Sizakele's funeral.  
Whilst in Cape Town I heard that comrades were arrested back home in De Aar.  When I came back during the week, I tried to get together with the other comrades.  We were volunteers of the advice office that we had started at Comrade Pickup's house.  We went to Greyling -  I went to tell him that I have knowledge about Sizakele's death and I know who pulled the trigger.
He said that I am putting my nose where it shouldn't be.  He said that the police would handle the incident.  I waited for the police -  I am still waiting for the police.  This only means that Sizakele Mbekushe's case - no police came to me as an eye witness who saw anything.
To this day that's all I have to say.

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much.  I would just like you to clarify - Greyling said that you can continue toi-toiing.  Ketile wife said that he knows who shot - who threw stones at the house and how many people were there.  Do you know anything about this?

THWANE ROTHO: No I have no knowledge of such.  But when we were toi-toiing on that day, there was no stone throwing.

MS SEROKE: As you picked up the children that had fallen, was it you and Sizakele?

THWANE ROTHO: Yes, it was.

MS SEROKE: When then was Sizakele shot by Ketile.

THWANE ROTHO: Sizakele were shot when both of us were going toward Martin to help him.

MS SEROKE: The person who shot first shot Martin Jumbo.  So what you are saying is that Sizakele was shot whilst trying to help Martin.

THWANE ROTHO: Yes, it is so.

MS SEROKE: You then said you tried to tell them what who had shot, but the inquest here said that no-one is responsible, but you were never called to the inquest, even though you were an eye witness.  It's amazing that this is what the inquest is saying now.  Is Mr Ketile still in De Aar?

THWANE ROTHO: I wouldn't be sure, because I am in prison.

MS SEROKE: Perhaps we can ask Sizakele;s mother if he knows whether Ketile is still around.  Thank you, I have no further questions.  I will give to our Chairperson here to take over.

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much for taking the trouble to make a statement and to be willing to come here today.