Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR MODISE: Unfortunately the good policemen were blurred by the actions of those who were brutal. In fact all policemen were given the task of finding us and eliminating us. If we were not arrested and taken to what's his name, sometimes the executions also took place even before you could reach the cells. So in short the police themselves with their activities created a situation where they were regarded as the enemy. They behaved like enemies against those who were struggling against oppression, they also behaved in that manner against their own people. They were the ones who were kicking down doors at night. Apparently there might have been some who were more vicious than others, but in the eyes of the people, worst of all in our eyes they were the enemy.

UNKNOWN: May I just follow up on that. You make a similar statement with regard to the councillors that were also targets saying that you did not identify them as enemies, they placed themselves there, they put themselves up as enemies of the people. Now that's very difficult to -either you did identify them as targets or you did not, but the rhetoric over these four, five pages that Mr Maharaj referred to uses both approaches. I don't know exactly what the position of the ANC leadership is on this.

CHAIRPERSON: The Premier Phosa.

PREMIER MATTHEWS PHOSA: Before you come to the councillors, still on the police, I am sure my other police can respond to the one of the councillors, the police were the front line of the counter-mobilisation strategy against our offensive. They were that front line. But talking about the police and the other question raised earlier on whether it was all the police, there are certain police who we managed to recruit and who came to the side of the liberation forces and I think it is appropriate to mention officers like Officer Mgabodi who used to work at Compol, who under difficult conditions turned around and supported the cause of justice and truth. And in the army you had one like, I think it was a colonel or a brigadier, Niemand, who also turned his back against injustice and supported the cause of truth. Now in talking about policemen you find that there are many examples like the Mgabodi's and Niemand who had the commonsense to realise that apartheid was wrong. Now I just wanted to add to that answer on policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: I was getting a little concerned at Mr Modise's reply that it went counter to much of what you have been saying where you were making distinctions, I think that that answer is one that would, as it were, throw out of the window, the fact that you were making distinctions and it is almost the crux of your argument, and if his answer is your answer then I think you should throw this submission also out of the window.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson I think perhaps Mr Malan in dealing with this section recognised a tension, but the tension arises in the operational reality. The security forces, including policemen were at the front line of the counter-mobilisation strategy, were in the front line of the preservation of apartheid and in breaking the resistance waged by the people. But at the same time politically we understood that if we left that terrain entirely to the apartheid regime we would be making a fatal strategic mistake in how we defined the system.
A similar tension arises with the councillors because the council structure that was erected by apartheid was a key structure which even Magnus Malan recognised for the perpetuation of apartheid. But they were mainly composed of Black people, from the oppressed community. So we had to engage in a dual strategy which took into account the position they occupied in the counter-mobilisation and in the breaking of our resistance movement as well as the need to draw them politically. It is that that required, the decisions were not made in Lusaka about who we should act against. Many of those decisions were taken on the ground in the context of particular struggles and what the communities were undergoing.
Now yes, if we look at the Black councillors who were attacked, whilst the ANC did not order such attacks it took no pleasure in the loss of life, but certainly it did not condemn them in principle. You will find an illuminating reference to what Comrade Chris Hani said in the context of necklacing, which sets the matter in a proper context. Both as to how we approach this matter from the point of view of our political responsibility and at that time from the vantage of that moment we saw it, Chris says, as a weapon devised by the oppressed themselves. We now know the reality was different. He goes on to say that we want revolutionary justice but we want it to be devised and handled in a revolutionary way and democratic way. So here was the tension that we faced. It is part of the type of problems that I certainly confronted, together with my comrades like Simpi Winyanda and Ronnie Kasrils, that part of that operation was designed to locate increasingly leadership figures so that we would work together with the leadership on the ground in ensuring that adequate guidance was given to the struggle.
So I believe that there is a tension if you look at it from one or particular angle, but it arises in an operational context.

UNKNOWN: May I just ask two follow-up questions on this. The first is the necklacing. Now whether we do know differently now or whether the first one was indeed from grassroots or from the regime as an example, or whether all of them might have come from the regime, the fact is that ANC leadership, if I read the submission, I want to know whether I'm correct, took the line all along that they were not to subscribe to the population. There's even reference to the traditional methods of justice referring to necklacing. For quite some time there was no intervention.
The second question following on this is on your page 15 of your second submission, your responses, on the left-hand column, can you reaffirm the second last paragraph,
"... MK cadres conducting crash courses to eager volunteers inside the country".
but you say that they were never thoroughly under the discipline of the ANC and the MK. So was it not expected all through that these kinds of, what you refer to as aberrations or mistakes, would continue to happen?