Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-10

COL PETER: Reverend and all the Commissioners, unfortunately I think everybody should be expecting a lot from me because I was on Brigadier Gqozo's side but there is little I know personally in connection with the incident we are about today of the 7th September.
 I apologise to those who thought they would get a lot of information from me but I will not hide anything, I will speak freely.  As we know, I am one of those people that were present when there was a coup in 1990.  At that time after this happened, there was great joy amongst the people, some were saying this is happening and it is good.  The late Mr Sebe is removed because of us and the soldiers were saying it is because of them that Mr Sebe was deposed.
 Everybody who was in Ciskei at the time knows what was happening especially before 1990.  They know also what happened on that particular day of the 4th March 1990.  As things went on and we were working with people, things were going well but there were a lot of people who had grievances who did not agree with the way the government was doing things but they did not speak freely or outwardly, but most voices were saying you helped us, Brigadier Gqozo.  Things continued in that manner, these people with different opinions but it was clear that most people were pleased because we were even going to...
 There were a lot of people who came to the offices when I was there.  Some of them were coming in the evenings asking Brigadier Gqozo what was happening and what he was doing, saying that the people that were leading us were too young.  These were Ciskeian citizens that were uttering these statements, elderly people.  Brigadier Gqozo, you are letting young people lead us, do you know what is going on in the villages?  There is no order in the villages.  There is discordance.  There is continuous discordance.  The side that was constantly asking why Brigadier Gqozo was letting us be led by young people were not saying anything but there were vibes that they did not want this.  
 They gave me stares when I walked home, when I was home and some of them who did have the guts to ask me what we were doing.  I am very outspoken and I would say to them you are the ones who feel this.  If you come and tell me as an individual, there is nothing I can do, you must forget it.  What you must do, get up, make noise so that there will be direction but if you just sit at home and catch us an individuals and ask us what is happening, nothing will happen, there will be no progress.  It went on like that.  There were a lot that we saw that was going on in the village.
 People started killing each other in the villages.  Other people came.  When Brigadier Gqozo formed an organisation so that we could also be heard, this organisation was called ADM, this party.  People started killing each other in Ciskei.  People really started killing each other.  People were dying.  It is these two parties that were killing each other.  It was the African National Congress against the ADM.  The PAC also came to our offices asking Brigadier Gqozo what is happening.  Brigadier Gqozo said that they did not count and they were told, they said they came as the PAC party but they were turned away.
 There was the ADM and the ANC.  Those were the major parties that were fighting against each other.  People died.  Then the South African government intervened.  I went a lot with Ministers to the South African government.  There was a day when it was clear that we were working with the ANC, I remember when we were going to a meeting which Brigadier Gqozo was meant to attend and Minister Pik Botha but they could not go to that meeting even though they were waiting for him.  I led the delegation then because Brigadier Gqozo could not make it.
 I am trying to form a picture.  I was then asked what is going on in Ciskei.  I said there is no problem there.  They asked me if I know Mr George, I said yes.  I told them there is no problem.  We are working with people, we even give them vehicles, they are using them.  There is absolutely no problem.  Good he said.  I don't know what else they said beyond that with Brigadier Gqozo.  
 There are not too many meetings that I attended where there was, that there was discussions with the then Minister Pik Botha.  We got there all prepared, the delegation from South Africa was not meant to meet all of us.  We were supposed to meet at tea.  I told Brigadier Gqozo that I don't like the way things are going, that we are not fully involved.  His deputy Mr Schoeman insisted that he wants to see Brigadier Gqozo on his own.  It was difficult that day.  I then entered to hear what was going on.  It was very difficult, Mr Schoeman didn't know what to do.  He didn't want me to be present.
 Brigadier Gqozo then said you can talk in his presence.  I don't really know what was going on.  I just want to say what I know.  That kind of situation carried on with the discordance between the African National Congress and the ADM.  There was then an intelligence that was constructed.  It was clear that this discordance was going to cause trouble but sometimes when something is happening around you, you don't recognise it or acknowledge it.  It is at a distance that you can be objective and see what is going on.
 We just realised the magnitude when we looked from a distance and we were told by other people what was going on.  It was very difficult at the time.  The African National Congress wanted things done in a particular way and there are other people, the ADM that wanted things to be done in another way altogether.  They did not come out in the open to say exactly what it is they wanted.  All they said was that they have been intimidated.  I pleaded with them to try and talk in the open.
 Going back to the 4th March, or rather 7th September, before that as a security council, we used to get reports as to what is going on in Ciskei.  Intelligence reports, security reports, army reports, we would then ascertain what is best to take it to the City Council as a constructive report.  There were a lot of things that were being said as to what was going to happen on the 7th September.
 On the 7th September there was a rumour that the Ciskeian government, there was going to be a coup, that the MK was going to take over, that it is going to take all of us and take us where we don't want to be taken.  Whether this was true or not but there were such rumours.  This was a security report.  We didn't know where it came from, we didn't have sources but these are the reports that came to us.  They came to us and told us that it is a fact.  In my memory as I remember these things.  In my memory the march was not committed to pursue, to continue because there was these rumours that there was going to be a coup.
 There were certain people that were provoking us but we were told by the leadership that these were not members of the ANC.  Some would go to marches with bad intentions and wanting revenge.  We then asked them that they should look at these things.  We asked the magistrate to consider these things as well.  At the time we were at the offices when the march was going on.  It is the soldiers that prepared how this march was going to work and where the soldiers were going to be deployed.  We then wanted to know what preparations the soldiers had made, that people were going to loot and that Bisho was in danger.
 They then told us what was going to happen, where the soldiers were going to be deployed and the police.  They told us how they were going to prevent people from going to Bisho and that there were going to be people standing at the fence where there was a gap.  We could see all this from the office and there were a lot of people.  As we were watching, there were people that did not enter into the stadium.  We could not see properly, we just heard shots and people were falling over.  We were at the offices at the time.  That is how people died, from my perspective and people were injured.
 After that the government talked about this incident.  We then thought that an investigation should be made and a Commission was set up and there were results.  That is all I can say about that day.