Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-18

GEORGE BIZOS: Although that is a theoretical possibility, the 
admissions of Mrs Derby-Lewis in R4 exclude it 
because she says, I can read the passages now - 251 
of R4 Mr Chairman.
"In January 1963 I telephoned Arthur Kemp at the
Citizen in Johannesburg and said I was going to send
him a list of names and that I wanted a description of
their houses and addresses.  This was done after much 
serious thought and because Clive and I felt that 
unless something dramatic was done the country 
would be controlled by the communists".
		Now may I just for one moment deal with the 
question of admissibility and weight at this stage?  This is 
completely consistent with what all of them said.  So how 
does it help the applicants to say that words were put into 
the mouths of Mrs Derby-Lewis or Walus or Mr Derby-
Lewis? 
"Clive and I therefore highlighted the names of people 
whom we believed to be the enemies of South Africa. 
 Certain names were added to the list I sent to Arthur 
such as Justice Goldstone and certain newspaper 
people.  Goldstone's address was needed to determine 
where he lived because I wanted to do an article on 
how he who helped to break down the Group Areas 
Act was now living in a white are far away from the 
results of his 1984 Govender Judgment'.
Now it also says something about Mrs Derby-Lewis Mr Chairman, 
not an unformed person, she knows the name of the case.  
	'The journalists address were requested because I wanted to 
write about them about their attitudes towards the CP.  I 
asked Mr Pik Botha's address because there strong rumours 
that he owned property overseas.  This has been reported in 
the in the Afrikaner newspaper and perhaps the company 
which owned his property here, if a company owned it, 
would be the same company which owned the overseas 
properties.  When I asked Arthur on the phone about 
supplying the addresses, I did not go into specifics.  He is 
politically shrewd and I believe that he felt that there was 
no need to spell out why we needed the names.  After all we 
were on the phone'.
Now is not that the statement of a conspirator, is that the 
statement of a person who wanted to write about the gravy train, 
about which she had already written before and had shouted it 
from the roof tops?  Why would she not want to discuss it on the 
telephone now.  I'm reminded the clandestine way in which Mr 
Clarke has bothered to take it to the Rotunda and to hand it over 
to him in his absence or out of his hearing on his evidence if he is 
to be believed.  	That's not a list but we go further.  On page 
252, paragraph 44, certain of the names on the list we believe to 
be the enemies of South Africa.  
	'Clive and I had vague plans in the beginning that some sort 
of arrangement should be made to liquidate one or perhaps 
more leaders of the ANC and the SACP Communist Party.  
The people on this list whom I believe to be the enemies of 
South Africa were the participants in 'Operation Vula'.  
You've heard the echo yesterday from Mr Clarke who were never 
prosecuted by the government and member of the ANC and SACP 
Communist Party.  Some of the names were Maharaj, Hani, 
Mandela Kasrils, Naidoo, Ramaphosa and Slovo.  
	'Clive and Kuba decided on Chris Hani to be eliminated 
because of his particularly brutal record and his position as 
chairman of the SA Communist Party which they believed 
never should have been unbanned.  Clive and Kuba wanted a 
description of the residences and I can only assume that this 
was to determine what sort of security surrounded the 
houses.  I simply asked Arthur what was asked of me; I'm 
not a logistics person, nor was I present at any discussions 
in '93 between Kuba and Clive about logistics', 
not about the conspiracy, just the logistics.  
	'It does not  mean to say I am denying that discussions 
between the two of them were not going on.  Clive told me 
sometime in March that he and Kuba had decided about 
Chris Hani as the person to be eliminated.  I don't know 
what Clive and Kuba discussed about the other enemies 
mentioned on the list, Arthur Kemp phoned ..' 
may I pause here.  
	Her previous statements make it quite clear that Hani was 
not alone, there was a whole list, what she says here,
	'Arthur Kemp phoned me to say that he had got some of the 
addresses I had asked for and I asked him to fax them to 
me.  I asked  him to fax the street address and the 
description of the residence referring to the ANC/SAC 
people and the description of the residences referring to the 
ANC/SAC people'.  
I suppose she didn't want a description of Mr Justice Goldstones 
if she's telling the truth about the article and not if he was not on 
the hit list, it's possible. And the reporters that she wanted to - it 
may be that there may have been people there as a camouflage, 
possibly but there is no doubt about the description of the 
residences referring to the ANC/SAC people and if we look at the 
exhibit with the nine names on, I can't remember whether 
everyone was an ANC/SACP person but certainly the majority, 
but with these fanatics Mr Chairman, who is an ANC/SACP 
person isn't a matter of nice distinction as far as they are 
concerned on the evidence I would submit, but anyone who is not 
fanatically preoccupied with herrenvolk ideas is a communist or 
an ANC person.
	Then on page 253 that, 
	'Arthur and I met at the Rotunda where Arthur gave me the 
names and the few other clippings for which I had asked 
him and Arthur told me that he was resigning from the 
Citizen and that he felt tired and was sick of ...(indistinct), 
Arthur said that he would be doing other things with his life 
not connected with this, generally such as statements, 
business and other...(indistinct).  I presume Arthur wanted 
to seem me rather than just faxing the list because he saw 
the implications of the list and felt he should not fax it to 
me.'
Now isn't that a conspiratorial way of dealing with things? I will 
deal with it in due course but what I want to emphasise at this 
stage, that where we have an improbable story told in the 
Supreme Court where ridiculous explanations are given by the 
witness in the witness box and where we do know that the 
handwriting on the list is that of Walus, we know that Mr Derby-
Lewis and Mr Walus had discussion on the list, that they were the 
ones that planned the murder, it becomes proof beyond reasonable 
doubt on Mrs Derby-Lewis' false evidence, coupled with the 
statements that she made which have not been shown to have been 
made under any sort of pressure, not only that what the applicants 
have to show that her treatment was such that she was in due 
course to lie about herself, about Walus and about her husband, 
she specifically disavowed any such happening in relation to her. 
She was specifically asked and we will further commit it to the 
passage by a member of the committee, and I have a graphic 
recollection of it, 
	'Despite all these things that happened to you..', 
if I remember correctly, it was the Chairman but I may be 
mistaken.
	'Did you tell them anything which was untrue?'
and the answer was no.  And let us remind ourselves how 
untruthful she was in relation to the portions that she learned 
were not on the video which was available.  She blue hot and cold 
and we refer to the cross-examination and these are the passages 
which are - if I could refer you to page 402 of R4, it's the 
continued portion, R4 continued, 402.  Well could we start with 
Item number 47.
	'On the Sunday I saw Kuba's photograph in the newspaper 
and recognised him at once.  I was very shocked but in my 
heart not at all surprised.  There had been a lot of talk 
between right wingers of solutions to the problems in the 
country'.    
This is the evidence her.
	'Clive said that he had discussed these things with Kuba'.  
Well that's true as a fact and of overwhelming probability that her 
loving husband would have told his loving wife.  
	'Clive was upset and I asked him what he was going to do'. 
A highly probable conversation after the wife party to a 
conspiracies was speaking to her husband after they found out 
that the one of the victims of their conspiracy had been murdered.
	'He said that during the discussions with Kuba they had 
mentioned such a thing like Hani's death, he said that he 
hadn't thought that Kuba would do such a thing at all'.
Well it's partly true but certainly not the statement of a person 
who is being coerced to give evidence against her husband or for 
any other purpose.  
	'He did say that he couldn't understand why Kuba had been 
so stupid to drive around so obvious, Kuba was supposed to 
change the number plates.  He did admit to me however 
they had discussed it.  Clive did however say it looked like 
a set-up, seeing Kuba was caught so quickly.  We suspected 
APLA, we talked about Hani suddenly talking peace when 
he was the manifestation of the resistance.  Hani criticised 
the PAC in the week or two prior to the killing.  Clive 
thought that either APLA, the government or someone was 
behind it, as it didn't should like Kuba who would go into a 
situation head-on.  I asked Clive about the gun but he did 
say he couldn't tell me where he had got the gun from'.
Now one does not dismiss that sort of evidence corroborative of 
the overwhelming probability found by Judge Eloff even without 
this.
	Then on top of page 6, during the criminal trial, Mrs Derby-
Lewis had given one other reason for the list to be the purpose to 
write a book with Mrs Ida Parker in addition to the list being for 
the purposes of conducting interviews or for use by Dr 
Hartzenberg.  The court held that Mrs Derby-Lewis was not 
truthful about the list and that here explanations were far fetched 
and that is the reference Mr Chairman to the criminal record.
	In her statement during detention Mrs Derby-Lewis says she 
did not show the list to anyone in Cape Town including Mr 
Derby-Lewis, that is in the statement and we give  you the 
reference, I submit that it's a correct reference, I don't want to 
read them unless members of the Committee want me to.  Her 
evidence before the Committee that she placed this list on Dr 
Hartzenberg's table and the evidence of Dr Hartzenberg that you 
saw documents on his table in Parliament, placed there by Mrs 
Derby-Lewis must be regarded as false.  Derby-Lewis is correct 
when he says that he took responsibility for compiling the list 
when he made his statement in detention in order to protect his 
wife.  His wife needed protection because the list was a hit list 
and he and Walus had already been arrested.