Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  So would you agree with me Mr Ismail, that the probability of what happened in the case of Ntombi Kubheka, is that the body was brought in, the doctor had a look at it, estimated what the height was and the weight?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Because the body was decomposed?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any questions for Mr Ismail?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   I take it in your experience, you have seen many decomposed bodies, Mr Ismail?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Are you saying in your statement, Exhibit L that it was the practice of doctors and physicians that the moment there was a decomposed body, a post-mortem would not be done, is that what you are saying?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: It all depended on the Police report that accompanied the body to the mortuary.

MR VISSER: Yes, so if the Police report did not indicate foul play, there would be no post-mortem done?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: All that was done, the doctor viewed the body.

MR VISSER: Just answer the question.  If the Police report accompanying the body did not indicate foul play, there would be no proper post-mortem report done?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: I see.  And you say in all probability this is what happened here?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: You say in paragraph 3, Exhibit L
"... decomposed bodies were regularly brought to the mortuary ..."
	does this indicate that this happened quite frequently?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: From which areas would the bodies have been brought, the decomposed bodies, to the Verulam mortuary?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: In fact the mortuary area is quite large, so it would extend from Umgeni River North, right up to Fraser, so we've got a very big area.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps in this regard, if one could make reference to Exhibit D.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is a map, I don't know.

MR VISSER: Would it for example include Newlands East, Mr Ismail?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Would that be an area which would go to the Verulam mortuary if a decomposed body was found there?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you continued to say that  if the Police report accompanying the body, indicated that death was due to foul play, I am using my own words, then the body would be sent to X-rays at Gale Street Mortuary?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was this standard practice without exception?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Would you repeat your question?

MR VISSER: Well, would that have been done in all such cases?  The moment there is a bullet hole on a body, that body would be sent to Gale Street for X-rays?  Were those the instructions, standing instructions?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: As far as you can remember,  were those standing instructions as far as you are concerned, normally complied with?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No.

MR VISSER: No what?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Because at times, where a doctor after viewing the body, if he saw the entry wound and an exit wound, and where he felt although the body was decomposed, it was easy to do the post-mortem without an X-ray, we did it without X-raying the body.

MR VISSER: I see, all right, but now let us assume as it is suggested in this case, that Dr Chetty or whoever the doctor was, did not see the wound and let us assume for a moment that there was a Police report, which we don't know, and the Police report reflected that there was a gunshot wound in this body, what would you have expected to have happened?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I would have expected to take the body to Gale Street.

MR VISSER: Thank you.   Would that exercise be entered into any books at Gale Street?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Could you identify what books that would be entered into?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I cannot recall, but the normal practise was, whenever we sent the body to Gale Street mortuary for X-rays on form GW715 on page 4, we made a note that the body was X-rayed.

MR VISSER: So you would make your own entry as a record, but there will be records at Gale Street as well?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, on form GW?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: 715.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the same form as this one, page ...

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR LAX: Just show us where on the form.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: On page 4 of the form we normally write there that the body was X-rayed.

MR VISSER: Would that coincide with page 70?  Is that the page 4 that you are referring to?

MS THABETHE: page 70, yes.

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Right at the bottom we would just write that the body was X-rayed.

MR VISSER: All right.  So what do you derive from the fact that there is nothing written on this particular form?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: There was nothing there, then I suppose no X-rays had been done.

MR VISSER: Yes.  That is what it would seem to indicate?  Okay.  You go on to say ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Visser, if I may just interrupt, just on this point.  Let's assume in the case where a body is sent to Gale Street for X-rays because there is murder suspected and there is a gunshot wound, would that body then come back to Phoenix for the post-mortem or would the post-mortem on that body that was X-rayed, be performed at Gale Street?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Certain post-mortems were done at Gale Street, only in the instances where it was suspected that the deceased was shot by Police, then the body was sent to Gale Street for the post-mortem to be done, but in ordinary circumstances, it was brought back to our mortuary.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I may, just for my own benefit, I didn't catch you very clearly.  Where exactly would it be written on the form, would it be under "additional observations"?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Are you talking about the X-ray part?

MR LAX: Yes?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes, right at the bottom there.

MR LAX: Okay.  I just wanted to be clear where it should have been written.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I was just coming to that point, because in paragraph 3 the last sentence you leave it hanging in the air, as to where the post-mortem would be held after such a body would be sent to Gale Street, do you agree?  It is left hanging, the question is left hanging, but you have now told the Judge, the Committee that sometimes it would come back to Verulam and sometimes it would stay at Gale Street?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Only in the case of a Police shooting, the post-mortem was done at Gale Street, but in other cases, they were brought back to the Verulam mortuary.

MR VISSER: Well, what happens if you don't know that it was a Police shooting, when the body was taken to Gale Street?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Well, the only time we come to know is when the form accompanying the body to the mortuary, the Police report states that it is a Police shooting.  Then we know it is a Police shooting, and then that post-mortem is done at Gale Street.

MR VISSER: All right.    Can you give us some sort of idea, Mr Ismail, on how many such decomposed bodies you recall, did you receive at the Verulam mortuary, say over a period of a month or a week?  I am sure it is possible for you to recollect on average?  After a week's work, how many of such bodies would you ...

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: I would say in a month we would get plus minus 15 to 20.

MR VISSER: 15 to 20 per month?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Decomposed bodies.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And you have explained to us over a large area, including for example Newlands East?  Now, are you saying that it was actually standard practice that if there wasn't a Police report that indicated foul play, that the physician would not do a post-mortem examination on a decomposed body?  Is that what you are saying?