Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

UNKNOWN: I don't know because we people of the African National Congress at the time we  knew that if you'd raise a black power sign at any time.  I didn't know that Snowball by raising a black power sign.  I don't know the sign of  that raising of the fist because the police just said, if you raise your fist you are a member of the ANC.

MS SEROKE: Was he a member of the ANC or not ?

UNKNOWN: We were ANC members and he was ANC members and he's still  an ANC member, even now.

MS SEROKE: Where is Snowball now ?

UNKNOWN: He's in Johannesburg.  We took him to Baragwanath Hospital and he was better.  He was working, he's working at the government offices.  At that time, during the political strife he ran to a certain area and when he went back, he started to work at that government office.  He is working even though he is sick.  Even if he is sick but the government allow him to go on working.

MS SEROKE: Is he still working by now ?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he's working.  Other days he's working, other days he goes to the hospital because he doesn't get sick all the time.

MS SEROKE: I see in your statements that  there are medical reports and reports from the Magistrate.  I want to ask about Esther Makganye.  Is she the mother to this, is she the mother to the child ?

UNKNOWN: Yes, she was the mother to the child.  She was there when Snowball was assaulted.  Esther ran away behind the clinic, but the one who was talking to the police was Elizabeth Makganye, who is my wife.

MS SEROKE: In your statement again I see, is Mr Tallie who was the Chairperson of, of that meeting.  Did Mr Tallie and Esther give statements ?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they did hand over their statements.  They only allowed Mr Tallie to give their statement.

MS SEROKE: I was talking about statements for the Truth Commission no, not, not about the Magistrate.

UNKNOWN: They were not there when the Truth Commission staff came but they may be available if the opportunity arises for them to hand over their statements.  As I said, she's not, she doesn't want to come because, because the police would shoot them because she said the police told them that they should not be seen again around the Magistrate offices.

MS SEROKE: We'd want Esther to meet with our staff  or our statement taker because there will be no police who would harass her.  We would ask her to give her statement.

UNKNOWN: The person who can give a true statement is Elizabeth because she confronted the police and though Esther was there but  she didn't engage the police at that time.  She saw with her eyes but she was at a distance but she saw whatever has happened there.

MS SEROKE: We will try ask our statement takers to get her to make a statement.  We will try to tell them that they should testify in this regard.  Those who have assaulted Snowball, Abraham Maletsani, Elias Pilane, are they still there ?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they're still alive.

MS SEROKE: Are they still working as police ?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they're still working in Boputhatswana.  Molentsani knows where they are working.

MS SEROKE: We thank you.  I've finished, I would ask our Chairperson to continue.  Professor Meiring.
PROF. MEIRING: Mr Makganye, thank you for telling the story.  There are a number of things I would like to ask still.  You said that your son... (interrupted)

MS SEROKE: You are free, you can ask your questions, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: Thank you very much.  Your son is married.  Was he married before or after the torture ?

UNKNOWN: He married before he was tortured.  As you know that our children just sit together and then after that they made a legal wedding.  Then during that time even before then they were just sitting together but after that they married, they married legally.
PROF. MEIRING: The child, is that a boy or a girl ?

UNKNOWN: Only, she's a daughter.
PROF. MEIRING: What is her name ?

UNKNOWN: I cannot remember her name.  I  cannot remember her name, she's still young and because they're staying in Johannesburg, they're not staying with us, therefore I cannot remember her name.
PROF. MEIRING: No problem, we will get it from them.  You said that he is, he can still work, what type of work does he do at the government office ?

UNKNOWN: He's working as a messenger.  Last time when he came, he  said  he's  studying  for electricity and he's engaged in the electrical work in the government offices.
PROF. MEIRING: He has some training, he went to school and he had training as, was he being trained as an electrician ?

UNKNOWN: Because he's there and I'm here, I don't know as whether he was taken for some courses but he's well versed with you know, with education.  Yes, he did go to school.
PROF. MEIRING: What standard did he complete?  Was he in standard six or eight or nine ?

UNKNOWN: He passed standard eight, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: Eight ?

UNKNOWN: Then after standard eight he was engaged in the struggle, then he left school to other areas.
PROF. MEIRING: Thank you so much.  Those were the questions I wanted to ask.  Thank you, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Let me not speak much.  If I forgot other things, when I remember them I should be given an opportunity to, to put them forward.  Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to ask you one more question.  I just want to understand... (interrupted)

UNKNOWN: You are free to ask me some questions, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You said earlier on when you were speaking to Miss Seroke, that, that there was a struggle of the people of  Braklaagte against incorporation but that was around 1988, 1989... (interrupted)   Tate, sorry, can I finish - but this happened in 1993.  What was happening in 1993 that made the police come in  such large numbers back into
the community and take such action against the people ?

UNKNOWN: They did so because we did not want to be incorporated in Boputhatswana and that we should enter.

CHAIRPERSON: But incorporation had taken place already.  We're talking about 1993, we're not talking about 1989.   Incorporation had taken place already.

UNKNOWN: Do you say we were incorporated in Boputhatswana ?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you say we were amalgamated in Boputhatswana in 1993?  We didn't agree.  When they, immediately they said we were incorporated, we did not agree.  We continued with our struggle because we knew that there was nothing called Boputhatswana, it's  part of South Africa.  Boputhatswana just changed yesterday.  We denied that we should be amalgamated to Boputhatswana.  They did so on their own but we agreed, we disagreed.  They assaulted us, so as to force us to be incorporated into Boputhatswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I then just ask why you and the people were so much against incorporation into Boputhatswana ?  Why did you want to stay part of South Africa at that stage ?

UNKNOWN: We see that it was not proper to be incorporated  into Boputhatswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you add a little more to that Tate,  what do you mean , not proper?

UNKNOWN: The reasons for our rejection is that they didn't negotiate with us.
They didn't tell us that we are from Boputhatswana, we are going to remove you from
that area.  After we have spent our monies and  our resources so they just came and say, if a person just say, go out of your house,  you cannot just take it easily.  What can you do if somebody just come into your house and say, leave that house whilst you're still in love with that house?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Tate, we don't have any further questions.  I want to thank you for coming here to-day and sharing your understanding of what happened in this area as well as what happened to your son.  We're very glad to hear that despite the treatment that he received at the hands of the then police, Bop police, he has made a sufficiently strong recovery to be able to work in Johannesburg and we have heard your statement... (interrupted)

UNKNOWN: He's not completely healed.  He's working because he's struggling.