Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-16

BERNARD MWELASE: The reason is simple.  There was a person who just died from an explosive which he was given by him, that was the reason why they should interrogate him because the person who was in hospital had already revealed that they've taken or they got that explosive from him.  This was the reason why they should arrest him and interrogate him or maybe even to turn him into an askari like us.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  You see, according to the evidence of the other applicants and according to your evidence as well, there was no limpet mine that was found in Mr Ninela, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing was found on him.

MS THABETHE: Nothing was found on him.

BERNARD MWELASE: No, I didn't see any limpet mine and we were the ones who were with him inside the car and he didn't have a limpet mine.

MR LAX: Sorry, you're asking the question before the translation's finished.  Can you just repeat the answer please Ms Interpreter?  I could hear the question on one ear and the answer in the other.

CHAIRPERSON: We were in the car with him and he had no limpet mine.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: You see, according to Mr Taylor's application, because there was nothing on him, or as he puts it, there was no evidence against him, they could not take him to court and as a result they decided to kill him because there was no evidence.  Now would you dispute the fact that maybe he was interrogated so that they could turn him to work for them as an informer?  Would you dispute that?

BERNARD MWELASE: What I can say is that I cannot read Col Taylor's thoughts.  I'm coming here for the first time because I'm requesting amnesty because of the role that I played in the killing of Mr Ninela, even though I don't know how they killed him.  In fact, I didn't even know if he was killed.  I don't know how they killed him, but I played a role by abducting him.  I don't know a lot about this.

MS THABETHE: You see, why I'm asking you this question, it's because of the evidence you gave earlier on.  In your evidence you said you thought they would do what they normally do, for example with yourself, you were interrogated and you eventually agreed to work for the policemen, so you thought they were going to do the same thing with him.  Do you remember saying that?

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, I do remember.

MS THABETHE: Just hold it there.  I don't want you to explain any further.

BERNARD MWELASE: When I mentioned my being an askari, I did come back to them and ask them about what happened to Mr Ninela and they told me that they had sent him to Swaziland to work for them.  I did ask them as to what happened eventually about Mr Ninela and they told me that he was in Swaziland and he was working for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is they?  Who are the ones that told you that?

BERNARD MWELASE: I did mention before that it was Col Taylor and Myeza because these two we used to ask them anything everything, and they will tell us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Okay, so you are saying you didn't know what was going to happen to him after he was abducted.  You didn't know why he was abducted.  You can't even say whether he was abducted to be recruited or not, but you think he was going to be interrogated about the bomb, the explosion that had happened earlier on.  My question is, what do you think would have happened to him if he was interrogated and he did not co-operate, taking into consideration that there was nothing found on him?

BERNARD MWELASE: It is difficult to speak on speculation, more especially to say something that what I thought those years and I am not sure, I've never recorded my thoughts, even now if someone can ask me about what I thought, I wouldn't say, really I wouldn't say exactly.  I was scared at this man because they tortured me a lot, but they didn't kill me.

MS THABETHE: Well I thought as an, you said you were an experienced askari, I thought you could know from your experience what happens to a person who fails to co-operate with interrogation, but seemingly you say you wouldn't know, so I leave it at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, otherwise it will be speculation.

MS THABETHE: Yes, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any re-examination?

MR RORICH: No, Mr Chairman, not at all.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RORICH

MR LAX: Just one question.  It's really an ancillary issue.  Who, besides Myeza, who were the others that arrested this man and yourself, that's yourself and Sidney, Stanley, I beg your pardon?

BERNARD MWELASE: It was Vusondala, David - I've forgotten his last name, Philemon Kululegu.

MR LAX: It doesn't matter if you can't remember the rest.  The one other aspect is that you actually arrested this man.  You took out your appointment card - they took out their appointment cards and they arrested you.  They said "We are police officers and we are arresting you".  Is that right?

BERNARD MWELASE: As we were approaching the car, they came out and they took their appointment cards and they said they were arresting us and they had arranged that this thing should happen quick so that other people don't see or there are no witnesses and we were not searched outside, because we thought that maybe there was an escort, or his own escort whom we didn't see.

MR LAX: The fact of the matter is that this was an arrest in a public place, isn't that so?

BERNARD MWELASE: Yes, it was in a public area.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, are you calling any other witnesses?

MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rorich?

MR RORICH: No, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gabriel?

MS GABRIEL: Mr Chair, the first witness on behalf of the victim's family will be Mrs Gratina Ninela and her evidence is found in bundle 2 pages 56 to 58.

GRATINA NINELA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela will speak in both English and Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: How are we going to do that?

MS GABRIEL: Well, I believe it's going to be primarily in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's do the best we can.

MS GABRIEL: Right.  Mrs Ninela, do you remember making a statement in this matter to TRC investigators and that is the statement that appears on pages 56 to 58 of bundle 2.  Is that correct?

GRATINA NINELA: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: We can't hear what she said.

GRATINA NINELA: I wish I had the paper here.

MS GABRIEL: Do you want the paper?

GRATINA NINELA: Yes, please.

MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela, do you live in kwaNcolosi, under Chief Bhekisisa Bhengu, in Mahlabatini?

GRATINA NINELA: Yes.

MS GABRIEL: And you have heard evidence today about the killing of Blessing Ninela?

GRATINA NINELA: Yes.

MS GABRIEL: Describe his relationship to you.

GRATINA NINELA: Blessing Ninela is my fifth born out of 6 children.  He was born in 1960, August 8.  At the age of 3 he got ill and the doctors found out he was a cardiac case, he had some trouble with his heart, so he took treatments monthly and this treatment went on until he was 20 when the doctors decided to stop it, but check him periodically.

MS GABRIEL: Mrs Ninela, can I just interrupt you for a minute?  Did your son live with you?

GRATINA NINELA: He lived with me while he was still schooling, sometimes he was at my house, my mother's house, but not very long, but most of his life he lived at our house and I used to work the 5 days of the week, except when I had a holiday and I used to have a weekend off fortnightly, when I was working.

MS GABRIEL: Can you describe to us about Mr Ninela, Blessing Ninela's activities after school?  After he finished school?  Was he still living with you then?