Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-25

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mkwanazi, at the criminal trial you told the court that you first moved into the hostel on the 27th June 1992 and prior to that you were never at Kwamadala, is that correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: (s.u.o.)  That is correct.  I was just defending myself.

MR BERGER: That was a lie?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And now, before this Amnesty Committee you admit your participation in the attack but you reduce it to an absolute minimum, correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In other words you don't admit killing or attacking or attempting to attack any person?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I did attack, I went to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Yes but in your admitted participation in the attack before this Committee, you have reduced your participation to an absolute minimum?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you say that is not a lie?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I went to Boipatong to attack but it was not my intention to go there.  An order was taken out that nobody should remain behind, all men must go, women must stay behind.  It wasn't my intention to go and attack people in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: So you didn't want to go to Boipatong and you wouldn't have gone if there hadn't been an order?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And if you don't get amnesty then you're going to proceed with your appeal and you're going to go to the appeal court and you're going to lie about your participation in the attack, is that correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No.

MR BERGER: So if you don't get amnesty you won't proceed with your appeal?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: The appeal goes on, sir.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that depending on the circumstances you just modify your evidence accordingly?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: You see I wasn't surprised this morning when you changed certain of the answers in your application and in particular I'm referring to your answer about what Themba Khosa said at the meeting of the 18th June 1992.  You told the Committee that the reason that there's that wrong answer and the reason that there's that incorrect passage in your affidavit is because your advocate got it wrong, not you, is that correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That's what I said.

MR BERGER: And the fact that you've been sitting here everyday - well let me ask you that first, is it correct that you've been present throughout these proceedings?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: When these proceedings began this month I was not here.

MR BERGER: Yes, you were not here on the 18th January 1999.

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: But for that day you have attended every other day, every other sitting of this hearing?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you've heard all your co-applicants with the exception of Mr Victor Mthembu denied that Themba Khosa gave the order to burn goods from the hostel?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you knew what was contained in your amnesty application namely that you had admitted that Themba Khosa had given that instruction?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It might have happened that he took out such an instruction but I was not present at that time, I arrived late.

MR BERGER: You see what I'm putting to you is that the reason that you changed your application or the details, those particular details in your application, is because you want your evidence to fit in with the evidence of your co-applicant's, am I right?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No, you're not right.

MR BERGER: Okay, when you made your application, I'm talking about the documents at pages 131 to 133, where were you?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I was in prison, Leeuhof.

MR BERGER: That was on the 15th January 1998.

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And when you gave you answers which I recorded at pages 131 to 133, who was present?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It was two advocates.

MR BERGER: Advocate Strydom next to you and Mr Frederick next to him?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And there was no interpreter present?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And at that time were the contents of the pages 134 and 135 explained to you?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I did not have an interpreter but here and there I could understand what was said.

MR BERGER: Please be aware of the document that I'm referring you to, I'm referring you to page 134 and page 135.  Perhaps my learned friend could show you?  Was that document explained to you when you signed your amnesty application?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And then the questions at pages 136 to 137 were put to you and you gave the answers at 138 to 140?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Who was present when you were asked those questions and you gave those answers?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Advocate Strydom next to me.

MR BERGER: Only Advocate Strydom?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: The two of them again.

MR BERGER: Advocate Strydom and Mr Frederick and there was no interpreter present?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: There was no interpreter.

MR BERGER: Then the document at pages 141 to 143, that is your affidavit, that was signed by you on 11th June 1998 and the oath was taken by Mr Frederick, is that correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And who else was present when you gave this statement?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: We were three.

MR BERGER: You, Advocate Strydom and Mr Frederick?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And once again there was no interpreter present?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you do not speak English or Afrikaans and you do not understand English or Afrikaans, is that correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You spoke exclusively in Sotho?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Afrikaans as well, I can understand Afrikaans just bits and pieces of Afrikaans.  I'm very strong in English, my English is stronger than Afrikaans.

MR BERGER: So did you not speak English to Advocate Strydom and Mr Frederick?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Here and there I would throw a bit of English, yes.

MR BERGER: You see because the document from 141 to 143 is quite a detailed document and it has information which is peculiar to you and to no one else.  For example what is written on page 141 and on other pages, 142 and 143.  So what I'm suggesting to you, Mr Mkwanazi, is that you and Advocate Strydom and Mr Frederick were able to converse quite easily for them to be able to get this statement down from you, that there was no problem with communication at all?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: There was a linguistic problem, a communication problem.  Why do I say this it's because I would mix English and Afrikaans together.

MR BERGER: Yes but there was never a time when you didn't understand what they were asking you and they didn't understand what you were saying?  Isn't that right?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct, here and there we would understand each other quite well.

MR BERGER: Now for example question number 6 at page 136
"Did you see any person firing with firearms during this attack?  If yes, please supply particulars."

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Themba Mabote.

MR BERGER: Yes, in fact that was your answer.  You said "yes, I saw people" - page 139.  "I saw Themba Mabote"  Accused 67 at the trial, fired shots in the streets of Boipatong, that's correct is it not?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I also saw Damara firing shots in the direction of the shops.  That is correct is it not?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: You went on
"Apart from what I saw I also heard various shots being fired."
That's correct is it not?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.