Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

MR MALAN: After you had lashed them, why did you allow them to go back to Amos' house if they were not from the area, why didn't you show them out of the area?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They did request that they needed to go to Amos' house because they left their clothes or their belongings there.

CHAIRPERSON: And that initially you were quite satisfied to leave matters as they were, to give them lashes and to let them go and to give them a warning never to come back to your area again, is that not so?  It was only when the group, the comrades from Amadiqwe came in and told you that it was not wise to simply let them leave the area, but that you had to kill them, that you then decided that they should be killed?  That is how I understood your evidence, is it not so?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MALAN: Sorry, why did Dudu have to be killed because Dudu was from the area or not?  Was Dudu also from another area?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: She came with them.  She was the one who was supposed to show them me, because they didn't know me and she knew me.

MR MALAN: All right, sorry then, can you just explain to me how did she know you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Dudu was Martin's sister, she did come to visit the area before and left.

MR MALAN: Did she visit often?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: She never used to frequent, but she would come and visit the area, even my place, she would come to my place.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't she the sister of Martin?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, she was Martin's sister.

ADV DE JAGER: And didn't she call out at you and asked for the hand of her brother?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, she didn't.  A male person shouted for Martin's hand, not her.

CHAIRPERSON: You are however, aware that evidence was led during your criminal trial to the effect that it was Dudu who called out, asking for her brother's arm and that during your criminal trial you maintained that it was not a female voice, but a male voice that called out.  You still stand by that version you gave during the criminal trial, that it was a male voice and not a female voice?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I still stand that it was a male voice.

MR MALAN: When these comrades from Amadiqwe arrived, they came in a kombi you said and there were many of them?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, a full load of a kombi.

MR MALAN: Did they alight from the kombi, did they get out of the kombi?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They alighted the kombi.

MR MALAN: And did you stand at the kombi and tell them at the kombi what happened?  Was there a meeting with them?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They alighted the kombi and they came to us and we met with them, that is when they started questioning us and we explained everything to them.

MR MALAN: And you stood at that place where they met up with you, where they said you should have killed the people, not lashed them only?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I was present there.

MR MALAN: How did the decision, how was the decision taken to attack Amos Cele's house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At that time, while we were standing there discussing, that is when we took the decision, because what they explained to us, we realised that what they are saying, was true, that if we let these people go freely, they are still a danger to us, they will come and attack us later and we also realised that they were still at Amos' house, they hadn't left.

MR MALAN: When was Amos' house burnt, before Dudu was killed or after Dudu was killed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Before Dudu was killed.   When we ran towards Amos' house, and when these people who were there, fled away and when we tried to chase those who fled away from Amos' house, those who remained at Amos' house, that is when they burnt Amos' house.

MR MALAN: Did you take part in the burning of Amos' house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I was chasing those who fled Amos' house and those who remained behind, they are the ones who burnt down Amos' house.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, we request your indulgence, we deviated a bit from - you were still leading your evidence in chief.  You may proceed to do so.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you very much, Chairperson.   You told the Committee that Dudu was kicked and you threw a big stone on her head.  What happened after that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: We left her there and no one was arrested at that time.  We realised that we didn't catch the others who also ran away, we decided that we were supposed to hold a meeting the following week, we all went to our respective homes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Mr Cele, in your affidavit, paragraph 15, there is a last statement that you made.  Do you still hold that statement that you made in this affidavit?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: What I know or whatever I took part on, it ends here, but when we were in a criminal court, I found out that I was told that I was also involved in other crimes, which I didn't take part.  I don't know of the other incidents or crimes which were committed after.   For instance Amos' murder, I didn't take any part, I was told that I was involved, but I wasn't there when he was murdered.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly explain to me, you were the Chairperson of this Association that you founded there to protect the people?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I wasn't a Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, but you were the leader of the group you formed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Your function as a leader, did you also sit in on the Court who would sentence people?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you ever present at a Court meeting where it was decided that Amos should be killed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I wasn't.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether there was a meeting who decided that Amos should be killed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I didn't know of any meeting because Amos was killed immediately after Dudu's murder.  The situation at the time in our area, was so bad that Police were always there, were always around.

ADV DE JAGER: That day when you decided that Dudu should be killed, you also decided that the other people involved with her, should be killed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Was Amos one of the group of people that should have been killed on that day?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, Amos didn't run away and we didn't take a decision to kill Amos.

ADV DE JAGER: Afterwards, after you had heard about Amos being killed, what was your attitude about his killing?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: If you could please repeat this for me.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you think that it was a correct thing to kill Dudu at that stage, not now, at that stage, did you think that Dudu should be killed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, at that time, at that stage I thought it was a correct thing to do.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, now at that stage, was it the correct thing to kill Amos also?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I didn't see that as a correct thing.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, thank you.