Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

CHAIRPERSON: That's precisely what I am asking you.  You knew that at the very first place you had attacked women had been attacked. You knew that other people with you were engaged in attacking and killing women, I want to know why you continued to take part.  You have explained in your evidence that you were told it was not compulsory.  You only had to do it if you wanted to, if you were a volunteer.  Why did you continue after you knew that the people with you were brutally killing women, young women and injuring old women?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: At the time when we met to discuss the attack I didn't know that some of us were going to kill women.  What I know from the beginning is that we are going to attack the men and if I knew that we were going to attack women from the beginning I wasn't going to be involved.  This attack on women happened ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that is what I am asking.  Why when you discovered women were being attacked at the very first place you attacked did you not go home and stop, why did you, yourself, continue once you knew this was going to happen?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: It was impossible for me to go back home or retreat because it was going to look like - I was thinking that if I go back it was going to be impossible, I was going to be afraid to go back alone because I have to pass most of the places which were enemy areas.

CHAIRPERSON: You know that of the 26 counts of murder and attempted murder that you faced, 13 of them involved women and children, did you know that?  At your trial half the people who were killed or injured were women or children and you were there the whole time, is that so?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes with regard to the counts of which I was charged, that's what I know.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Gumbi just in follow-up to what Judge Wilson has asked you, at the trial Judith Dlamini gave evidence and she had said that after the stabbing had taken place in the Dlamini home you in fact remarked to those with you that they could now leave and thereafter they left, have you got any comment on that?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't know that.  Referring to the statement which she said before the Court I don't agree with it because in most of the statement she was lying.  I don't remember that and I don't know that I ever mentioned that we can go.  If we can come back to the statement which she gave to the Court she said I wasn't armed or in possession of anything but I knew I was armed.

ADV POTGIETER: The suggestion is here that you were playing a leading role.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't know, they might have perceived me as a leader but I wasn't a leader, I was just an ordinary follower, the same rank with the others.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to correct something.  She did not say you were unarmed, she said you were armed with an assegai.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: She also stated that I didn't do anything during the attack.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you see any of the Dlamini's amongst the attackers that attacked you on that day?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I didn't see them, however the young children were also involved in the fightings because they were grown up.  I couldn't see or recognise them because when they were shooting at us we were running and I couldn't identify them as to whether they were Dlamini family people.  But I would say they were involved in some of the fighting.

ADV POTGIETER: So is that the reason why you entered the Dlamini home, because you were under the impression that they were involved in some of the fighting?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That was not the reason.  As I said the reason why we had to enter the Dlamini family is because we saw one young man standing outside of the Dlamini family so we thought maybe this is one of the camps where the ANC members stay and we didn't know that there were women inside, as I have explained before.

ADV POTGIETER: You thought it was one of the camps but inside were four women, the boy who was standing at the door, you told us, ran away and you shot at him.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: We saw this man standing outside. We thought maybe he is standing outside to see what is going on as we knew that people when they are camping they stay inside their houses. We were surprised when we got into the house only to find that there were women.

ADV POTGIETER: So you were surprised to find that there was only women but yet your group proceeded and you killed three of them, or two of them and attempted to kill another one?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: When all this happened it just happened and unfortunately I wasn't the one who was in charge of the people who were attacking.  Even if I have retreated or went back home the others could have continued and attacked the people. Since they saw the person standing outside they thought there were people inside and they continue attacking.  It was a continuing kind of an incident.

ADV POTGIETER: Now just in conclusion you met no resistance at all at the Dlamini home, is that correct?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: May you please repeat your question.

ADV POTGIETER: You met no resistance at the Dlamini home.  The people did nothing to you, inside?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: They didn't fight back.  I didn't see anyone personally, fighting back.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And there was a fire going on in the fireplace and a candle burning in the room.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I didn't see any fire and any candle burning.

CHAIRPERSON: That was apparently the evidence led at your trial.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: At the time of our court case all the evidence that was given because the court was against me, but now I am here to tell what I know, so I can't say things which I didn't see if I didn't see them.  I can't say that I've seen it if I didn't see anything.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Gumbi you told this Committee that the killing of the children and the women was a mistake, do I quote you correctly?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's my view, but those who committed these acts against the women they intended to do that, but because personally myself I am against that I don't think people of a right conscience could kill women and children.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can I then safely conclude that according to your conscience they shouldn't have been killed, it means that their deaths cannot be justified by yourself?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: As I am explaining I am the one who got arrested in connection with all the incidences.  I am saying that personally I didn't see the reason why we had to injure women.  I was there, as I have explained and we were arguing and different in views from the other members.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please tell me the names of the members who found it necessary to kill women and children, with whom you were arguing?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I can't know them there were many, we were many people.  However, one of them whom I knew was from the Mthembu family whose mother - he was one of the persons whose mother was killed, he was Sced Mthembu.

CHAIRPERSON: And where is he now?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't know.  I last saw him in 1991 after the arrest I don't know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Gumbi then it would mean that the unfortunate mistake, unjustifiable deaths will relate to count 1 up to count 6, people who died therein, that you cannot justify?  That is on page 39 of the pagination for the convenience of the members.  Count 1 to 6 those are unjustified, those cannot be politically motivated. Would you like me to read out to you the names of the people I am talking about?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes you can read them.