Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

MS BOSMAN: Was any of the Zwane family involved in that type of business?  Mr Zwane of relatives of his, did they run the same type of business?

JOHN MNDEBELE: There was no one around the section in which I resided or operated.  The one person that I know, the other Zwane, was in a different section about one and a half (1,5) kilometres from my shop.

MS BOSMAN: Did you regard that as being in competition with you, one and a half (1,5) kilometres away?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, this is not part of it.  I don't even remember discussing it at any stage.  There are six (6) shops around my shop and therefore there is a healthy competition and this was nothing but political, it doesn't involve business.

MS BOSMAN: When you decided or discussed the plan to eliminate Ngwenya, did you take this up with the ANC on a national or a regional level or did you only discuss it amongst yourselves?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We discussed this as ANC within our committee.  We had a provincial mandate from national right down to the local level.

MS BOSMAN: And then Mr Gushu, he was given a very wide mandate, according to your evidence.  Did you check out his credentials in any manner to ensure that he would carry this wide mandate out in a responsible manner?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I did not used to liaise with Gushu.  The one person that I used to communicate with is Mkhwanazi, not Gushu.

MS BOSMAN: Did you ask Mr Mkhwanazi about Gushu?

JOHN MNDEBELE: (No English interpretation)

MS BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairman.

MR SANDI: Mr Mndebele, was there any reason why you would not talk directly with Gushu?

JOHN MNDEBELE: It was the policy of the organisation that a commander.  We are dealing with a commander here or the chief of staff so to speak.  He is the one who will decide how the communication should flow down there.

MR SANDI: This special committee you have made mention of, was it a generally known committee?  Was it known generally by members of the ANC that such committee existed?

JOHN MNDEBELE: It was not generally known, but it was known at Ermelo.  We knew ourselves as a committee that was in charge of peace and stability and how to bring this violence to an end.

MR SANDI: Should I understand that to mean that you were not a secret or covert committee, you were operating above board?  You had no problem about your committee being known by members of the ANC or whoever?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The committee operated such that it was not open as such, not well-known to everybody else.  It was instead liaising with people within the underground structures.

MR SANDI: You've also mentioned a meeting with the late Mr Chris Hani.  Where was this meeting held?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The meeting was held at Shell House in Johannesburg at the head office.

MR SANDI: Did you say at this meeting Chris Hani advised that whatever steps were necessary should be taken to deal with the situation here?  Is that what you were saying about Chris Hani?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.  He said we should take whatever steps were necessary to bring back peace.

MR SANDI: Did he give any examples of what kinds of steps he thought should be taken to deal with this problematic situation here?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.  He did indicate something to the effect that it was necessary that self-defence units be formed so that we should have people protecting other people.  We should not expect a person to come from outside to do the job.  The people themselves should do it and we indicated to him that we did not have arms and he said the people should arms themselves and that was up to them to decide how they wanted to arm themselves so that they can defend the community.

MR SANDI: At this meeting did Mr Hani make any suggestion that arms should be obtained by force from anyone if need be?  Did he ever say that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: There was no any other way.  We had to get weapons from the people who had weapons because if you asked for it the person would not give it to you.

MR SANDI: Look at page fourteen (14) of your background document, paragraph seventeen (17).  Have you found the page, Mr Mndebele?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

MR SANDI: In paragraph seventeen (17) you say, "Unfortunately three other people, namely Happy Mhlongo, Eric Nkosi and Sibusiso Tito Nkosi were injured in the attack on Jwi Zwane".  Now, you have applied for amnesty.  What is your attitude about these three people you have mentioned, people who were injured in an action which you had authorised?

JOHN MNDEBELE: As I have stated, these three were caught in the crossfire.  I am very, very sorry about that.

MR SANDI: Perhaps the Committee, Mr Patel, should be addressing this question to you.  What is the position of the applicant in relation to these three victims he has made mention of in the application?  Sorry, in the background document.

MR PATEL: I'm not quite sure that I follow the question.  Is it that amnesty is being claimed in respect of these three victims as well?

MR SANDI: Yes.  Is he applying for amnesty in respect of these three victims?

MR PATEL: Beg your pardon.  As we have it, if I can refer you, sir, to the schedule which commence at pages twenty of Volume one (1), it's been classified under point two as being attempted murders of Happy Mhlongo, Sibusiso Tito Nkosi and Eric Nkosi.

MR SANDI: Thank you.  Is that to say that, I don't want to misunderstand the applicant, is that to say that the applicant is making applications for amnesty in respect of whatever action may have been taken by Gushu in the execution of this general order?  Perhaps not only Gushu.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, perhaps if I can refer you, sir, to paragraph seventeen (17).

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, the speaker's mike is off.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Patel, forget about referring us to anything.  Is the applicant, this particular applicant making application for amnesty in respect of those incidents referred to by Mr Sandi?

MR PATEL: Yes, ... (inaudible)

MR SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mndebele, tell me, did you get paid for any of these things?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, we were not paid.

CHAIRPERSON: You gained personally in any way?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, have you spoken to any of the victims involved in the incidents for which you make application?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We still have to talk.  We once discussed but we did not finish.  We still have to meet.

CHAIRPERSON: For what purpose did you meet?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We met because our intention is to bring about stability and indicate to them that there were mistakes here and there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now, I'm talking about the specific victims of these actions.  Those that are injured or were injured and those next of kin of those who died, have you made any attempt to talk to them?

JOHN MNDEBELE: What I can say is that I once had a discussion with Happy Mhlongo and Eric Nkosi, as well as Sibusiso.  As I have stated, we did not finalise our discussion but yes, we did meet.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, how do you feel about that now?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I feel very sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: And how do you feel about the deaths of those who have died?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I equally feel very sorry, but the situation at the time was such that there was nothing else to be done.

CHAIRPERSON: What about now?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I still feel very sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think the situation is conducive to reconciliation?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I think the time is right that we can speak to one another and reconcile because we keep saying that we should forget about the past.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you happy to do that?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, I am prepared.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  You are excused.