Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: So do you use it in that order, Andries Nosenga Matanzima?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it happens that I sometimes write Andries Nosenga Matanzima or sometimes I just write Andries Nosenga or sometimes just the surname, Nosenga.

MR LOWIES: But never Matanzima, or do you do that as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that I do write that because that is my name.

MR LOWIES: But why would you only write your name and not your surname, when you have to sign a document?  That is what we're talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, where is this going to take us to?

MR LOWIES: Well he denies his signature on certain documents.

CHAIRPERSON: If the man says: "This is how I sign my signature", I mean isn't that answer final?

MR LOWIES: I'll leave it at that.

MR LOWIES: Now the reason why I started off with the 1993 issue, paragraph 9, page 2, is (3) where you apply for amnesty, you mention the places Sebokeng and Everton, nothing is said in this application regarding Boipatong, why?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know.  They questioned me on Sebokeng and I told them.  I do not know what happened, there must have been a problem with the person who wrote that statement because I did put in an application for amnesty in regard to Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: So what we have is, Sebokeng is not the same place as Boipatong and you know that.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: These are two separate distant townships.  Sebokeng and Everton, Sharpeville and Boipatong are all different townships.  They are different.

MR LOWIES: So now that being the case and you knew this quite well, I put it to you that you did not when you were requested, or when you requested assistance to complete your application, mentioned Boipatong at all.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that.   I was questioned yesterday, I even mentioned Mr Brian and I explained that I did mention the issue of Boipatong and sought amnesty for that.

MR LOWIES: Now if you turn to the next sub-paragraph of paragraph 9, you state the following
"The first incident was in a shack which was next to a road.  ANC supporters were known to frequent that place.  We shot at people outside a shack in Everton."
Page 2 up until page 3, Chairman.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think you didn't get me well, these things started at Sebokeng.  We started attacking from Zone 12, Sebokeng and we did not start from Everton.  Everton actually is the last township if you have travelled from Sebokeng.  So I would like you to please explain to me what are you trying to say when you say we started at Everton.

MR LOWIES: The problem is, Sir, this is what you said.  I want to know what you meant by this.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that.  I started attacking from Sebokeng, Zone 12 and proceeded to Everton.

MR LOWIES: You see the relevant portion reads as follows
"The second incident was in Sebokeng, Zone 12, where we shot at people who were waiting for buses and taxis."

CHAIRPERSON: Where are you reading from?

MR LOWIES: Page 3, paragraph 9(4), Chairman, at the top, the third line from the top.
	Is this correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, we started at Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: No, but this, what's stated here is that "the second" and I repeat
"... second incident was in Sebokeng, Zone 12, where we shot at people who were waiting for buses, taxis."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it's the first incident where we shot people who were waiting for taxis and buses.  It is the area just off Small Farm.

MR LOWIES: Now do you admit to shooting at people in Everton under the following circumstances, and I quote from your statement - Page 2, Chairman, the last sentence.
"The first incident was in a shack which was next to a road.  ANC supporters were known to frequent that place.  We shot at people outside the shack in Everton."
Did this incident occur?  It doesn't matter when, the question is only, did something like this occur?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it happened at a shebeen.  People used to frequent that place, Djomo's place at Everton.

MR LOWIES: And was this on the same day as the shooting incident in Sebokeng or not, Sebokeng, Zone 12?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, the same day.

MR LOWIES: Then there's a statement
"Details of other incidents attached herewith"
... annexed to this, forming part of this statement.  What were you referring to?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I'm not educated, I don't know what you're talking about.  May somebody please read that to me.

MR LOWIES: In the statement that you made to whoever completed this form, we'll get to it now, wherein you mentioned the Sebokeng and Everton shootings, you say
"Details of other incidents are attached herewith"
What did you mean - sorry, what I'm asking is, did you talk about other incidents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I spoke about the Sebokeng as well as the Small Farm incident and Everton, these are the only places.  That is where a taxi was shot.

MR LOWIES: Now is Small Farm in the - sorry, I do not know the area, is Small Farm in the vicinity of Everton or Sebokeng or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is in Everton.  It is actually a squatter camp called Small Farm.  It is something similar to Central.  It is a shack area of Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: It's not Zone 12?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: When you leave Sebokeng from Zone 12, there is a tarred road that you have to take to lead you to, to get to Small Farm.

MR LOWIES: No, in your mind, is Zone 12 the same as this Small Farm place or is it not, in your mind?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, Zone 12 is a zone and Everton is something different.  It is a shack area that I'm talking about in Everton and the other area is the township with four-roomed houses.

MR LOWIES: Did you speak about any other place?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, those are the only places that I spoke about, Sebokeng, Small Farm and Everton.

MR LOWIES: On this point I'm going to return to what you've said to Ferreira.  Is it not so that the places where you took Ferreira to were not only Sebokeng, Zone 12 and the shack in Everton, but you took Ferreira to various other places as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't recall, maybe that happened because I was being tortured, but I pointed out Zone 12, at a stop sign.  That's where people actually caught their taxis.  I don't know what he is talking about.  I think he is talking about something else.

MR LOWIES: Did you take them to Small Farm?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I took him to Small Farm, where the taxis were shot at.  That's the white person you're talking about?

MR LOWIES: Now you would surely be able to know whether you just took them to two or three places or more than those, in other words more than three places.  Can you assist us in this regard? - as a result of the assault.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I cannot recall, but I know I took them to Sebokeng, Zone 12.  I was in a Casspir and they were travelling in private vehicles.  I also went to Djomo's place, the place that I said was a shebeen.  I don't know what other places he is talking about.

MR LOWIES: On your version, who instructed you to attack Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying we were told at a meeting that was held two weeks prior.  It was indicated that we should attack Boipatong.  Themba Khosa was present.  So I really don't know where this question is leading us.  I did mention this even earlier, that we had this meeting two weeks prior and then later on the one on the 14th.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, please, you're wasting time.  The question is simple, who, on your version, in other words in your mind, instructed to attack Boipatong?