Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

MR MALAN: I also want to direct a question to Herman.  I have been listening to evidence now over the last two days, and I am trying now to get a broader picture, understanding Huhudi, and what fascinates me is that all the youngsters, round about 17 years of age at that time in 1985 who gave evidence here, all denied flatly, any involvement in any kind of violence.
 Everybody was on the receiving end, the vigilantes, the Councillors, everybody went after them.  They did nothing.  They were just the good people.  They were in high offices in political organizations, but they seemed to have done nothing.  And yet, Councillors' homes were also burnt, vigilantes were also attacked, girls, or a girl, Frida, for instance was burnt.  Nobody knows anything about it.  How MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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are we to understand that picture?
 When you showed us the scars on your face - have you been walking the townships, hiding and been caught out from time to time, people beating you up, you doing nothing.  Can you give me a feeling of that world?  It doesn't make sense to my mind.  I don't understand it.
 Is there any way that you can with a word or two help me to understand that picture.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I would try and explain to you, that is the way I know things went in Huhudi.  Like I explained earlier I was a member of the UDF.  Therefore, there were some other things that were happening in our township, which we were not happy about, which were perpetrated by Councillors.   Where they were forcing people to go to Podumo.  And that was one of the things we didn't agree to.   So, those things caused conflict between us and the Council.  The Councillors were always challenging our leaders.  So we were trying to bring about peace, tried to protect our leaders, so that they couldn't be killed, but the Councillors realized that we were obstacles and they start by killing us so that we can be out of the way - that is the youth.
 During those days there were uprisings.  There was confusing in the township, people were fighting.  That is why people died.  Those people couldn't have died if there were no uprisings.   
 This shows that were conflict between the Councillors and the UDF organization.  
 I thank you.

DR RANDERA: Herman, sorry.  I just want to go back to the last time.  It worries me.
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 You say that when you were having your meeting and then the Councillor and the vigilantes attacked, it was about two o'clock in the afternoon, and than soon after that, you saw Frida, pointing out in which house Monamodi was hiding.
 Now this is broad daylight.  You know the houses in Huhudi are very close to each other.  Why do you think Frida would have put herself at risk in broad daylight when there was this war, if you like, going on already, between the youth and the Councillors and their supporters?

UNKNOWN: I say this, because during those days, there was a day on which I saw what happened.  These Councillors and the Inkatha were being chased by some people.  They were chasing some people who they couldn't find.  At another chance they found a boy who they asked, where have the people been hiding themselves.
 This guy couldn't explain to them where the people were.  They, therefore, stabbed him with a sword on his stomach, just because he couldn't tell them where the people were hiding.
 So for Frida to tell where the people were hiding, is because she was under pressure because she had already seen that these people are very serious.   They might also injure her if she doesn't tell where the people are hiding themselves.

DR RANDERA: So what you are saying, is that Frida was there.  She was frightened.  They got hold of her and because of that she pointed out, not because as have been said before - and I am asking for your opinion now - not a fact, not because she was an impimpi.

UNKNOWN: No.

DR RANDERA: Sorry Herman, I didn't hear that.
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UNKNOWN: I said she was not an informer.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Bertha Gasebue and your family, it is clear that the thing you have been carrying in your hearts is so heavy, especially the way the boy died.
 And you, Mrs Basetsana, we realised the hard times you have been through.   You wanted to hide, but they pulled him from underneath the bed.  
 Herman, we want to thank you.  You have given us the framework of Vryburg.  You told us that it was a bitter 
war, because people were being removed to Pudumo, without their concern.   That is why we don't have any point or evidence from the police, yes, we do expect them to come and tell us the other side of the story and how they were killed, but now in this conflict that existed in Vryburg, there wasn't another way out.
 We have people who sacrificed.  We now do not know, because we want reconciliation, whether the police and the members of Inkatha are still present in Vryburg, and if they are present, is there a way to reconcile, so that there can be peace in Vryburg.
 We listened to your pains and we have listened to you story, and then, working together we must find a way out.
 We want to thank you and your family, we want to thank you and neighbours.  We want to thank you as citizens of Vryburg.
 Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Chairperson, that brings us to the conclusion of these hearings in Mmabatho and we have heard 31 stories, with additional witnesses during this time.  These areas that we have covered for this first hearing have been the towns of Vryburg, Mmabatho, Zeerust and Lichtenburg.
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 I would like you to make the closing remarks.  
 Thank you very much, Chairperson.