Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-13

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I won't be able to remember properly, everything that happened on that 17th, I will say the people in charge were Damarra and Mkhize.

MR BERGER: And Mtwana Zulu?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I didn't see him on the 17th of June 1992.

MR BERGER: When last did you see him before the 17th of June 1992?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: You don't want to commit yourself to any time or date at all, is that right?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes it is correct, but I do confirm that I didn't see him on the 17th.

MR BERGER: Would you agree with the statement that nothing of significance happened at kwaMadala Hostel without the consent of Mr Mtwana Zulu?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I'm not sure, but I know him as a prominent leader, above most of the leaders.

MR BERGER: Do you dispute that Mr Mtwana Zulu was in charge of the attack on Boipatong, and in fact present in Boipatong at the time of the attack, do you dispute that?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I deny that.

MR BERGER: I can put it to you as a fact that you are wrong.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I stand by my words that on the 17th I didn't see him at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that he might have been in Boipatong and you didn't see him;  or you can state positively as fact that he was not in Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I'm saying, on our way when I was with the group I didn't see him.  Even at the hostel, when we left the hostel, he wasn't there.

MR BERGER: Are you saying it's possible that he was in Boipatong and you never saw him?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I'm not saying that.

MR BERGER: What was your attitude to the attack, were you in favour or against?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I was in favour of the attack.

MR BERGER: So when you say it's Mr Mkhize or Damarra Chonco told you and the other men at the stadium that night, tonight is the night that we are attacking Boipatong, go and fetch your weapons, you were keen in what was happening and you were interested and you were willing to join the attack on Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Why did you want to go on this attack?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Because I wanted to align myself with the people.  We had agreed that we should achieve a particular political goal, the goal of neutralising the ANC and to stop the ANC people from regulating our lives, and to fight for our freedom, to be free to go wherever we want to go in the Vaal region, and that's why I went to the people.

MR BERGER: Who was the target in Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I would say the majority of the people, or the community of Boipatong who were supporting the ANC.

MR BERGER: But you knew that there were ANC supporters, PAC supporters, IFP supporters, all living in Boipatong.  How did you identify the ANC supporters?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: On the 17th of June it never came to my mind that there are IFP members at Boipatong, I was under the understanding that since they were attacked and chased out of the township, they might have ran to other places.  Therefore I was convinced that it's only the ANC which is staying at Boipatong, and the other people who were not ANC members, for example the PAC people, I think they work together with the ANC.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee yesterday, and I won't take it further than that, that you were aware at the time of the attack that there were ANC, PAC, IFP, living in Boipatong.  Do you dispute that now?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I never said on the 17th.

MR BERGER: Is it not correct that at the time of the attack your grandmother lived in Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes she stayed at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Your girlfriend and your child lived in Boipatong at the time of the attack, is that correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes but in Sondela, not in Surela where the incident took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who stayed in Sondela?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: My girlfriend and my child.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) grandmother.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: She was staying at Majola.

MS SIGODI: Sorry, and what happened to your grandmother, was she also attacked?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: She wasn't attacked.

MS SIGODI: Do you know why?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: ...(no English translation)

MS SIGODI: Was she in Boipatong on that day?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I'm not sure.

MS SIGODI: Did you discuss this incident with her afterwards?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that Majola Street is in Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Isn't it also correct that at the time of the attack you had friends living in Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Were any of them injured or killed during the attack?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I'm not sure.

MR BERGER: You had absolutely no problems with being part of that attack on Boipatong, correct?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you Mr Tshabangu what you say at page 178 of your affidavit.  In the middle of the page you say
" Op die aand van die 17 Junie 1992 het ek saamgegaan na Boipatong.  Ek het 'n kierrie gehad.  Ek wou eintlik nie saamgegaan het nie aangesien ek te veel mense in die woongebied geken het.  Ek het egter nie veel van 'n keuse gehad nie aangesien ek as 'n verraaier beskou sou word indien ek sou agterbly."
Where's the truth Mr Tshabangu?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: The truth is that's what came to my mind first that I mustn't go there.  I ended up going to Boipatong.  I also didn't wish to enter any of the houses because I was known in the area, but I ended up entering some of the houses.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel wants you to explain is that you've just told us that you were willing and eager to take part in the massacre, and you were one of the persons as I understand your evidence, who had complained about the circumstances under which you were living in at the hostel.  But what you are saying at page 178 is that you did not want to go there because you knew too many people.

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: Yes I said that Sir.  I knew that people know me in the area, therefore I shouldn't go.  But if I were not to go people who were inmates of the hostel might take me otherwise because I was staying at the hostel.  One thing is that I was also angry because of the things that the people of Boipatong did to me.

MR BERGER: Mr Tshabangu who forced you to go to Boipatong, and who would have regarded you as a traitor if you didn't go to Boipatong?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: I would say personally nobody forced me to go to Boipatong, however the people who were staying with me will have considered the act of me not being present, showing that I'm a traitor.  I'm referring to the inmates in kwaMadala Hostel, that's how they are going to perceive me.

MR BERGER: Not the men from Umsinge in particular Mr Tshabangu?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: You see what I want to put to you is that this was an attack not on the ANC, but on all the residents of Boipatong, and that's effectively what you are saying here when you say "I didn't want to go on the attack because I knew too many people in the area", not that they would recognise you, but there were too many people who might get caught up in this attack, and you didn't want to be part of that.  Isn't that right?

MPLUPEKI TSHABANGU: No.  I would say the truth is, the attack was directed to the whole community of Boipatong together with my relatives, my grandmother, and whoever stays there.  Briefly I can explain in this way during that time exactly the way I felt, I had convinced myself that even if my grandmother was attacked or a friend, that wouldn't matter because during this period one didn't exactly have relatives, there were no relations because your relatives could be used as traps or someone who can sell you out to be killed or burned.  Each and every individual at Boipatong couldn't be trusted by myself.