Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-07

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes, extra.

CHAIRPERSON: Other information other than what Mr Hermans was able to give us, that's what the advocate is asking, relating to the information which led to the belief that the
AWB was operative in the area and in fact was using the coast as a base to do what it did or what you believed it was doing.

FUNDISILE GULENI: I may not be sure whether it can differ from what has been said by Pumelele but what I can remember is that there is within these suspicions an information that also in another area there was infiltration at Port St Johns.  I can do that to my best.

MR SMUTS: Well if it was a factor on which you rely, Mr Guleni, then this is the last opportunity you're likely to have to place it before the Committee, so if it's relevant would you inform us of it?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Okay.  Like I myself, the main task that I was in charge was to go and recruit in the bridges outside town, also including town of course.  So at times when I get in the office to check the occurrences, I used to get a report from the administrator that there has been information forwarded into the office that there is an infiltration as indicated by Pumelele.  But also, there's an area which is known as Bantu, Bantu at Port St Johns, where it was alleged that there were suspicions that some weapons have been loaded at Bantu.  So also other facts are those that have been already given by Pumelele.  So what happened, on the basis of that information we got, I together with Mr Vigetu, the then Chairperson of the ANC as I was the Secretary and also another executive member Kholiniswa Mgune, went to regional offices to report the matter that we are operating under threat and even at that time we couldn't say that we have a tangible evidence around this but we felt we are under threat because these people are infiltrating the area so that's how it occurred.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there any assault or attack on anybody by these AWB people here?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No there was no assault but ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Was there confrontation?

FUNDISILE GULENI: What we got was information that they target Port St Johns, in fact these people were alleged to have a fear that Port St Johns because it's having also a special force, that is TTF, based there, is a strongest area which if it could be infiltrated it could make things easier for them to have their operations.  That's some of the allegations we used to get so we were afraid that if they succeed in their missions of loading in the weapons and happen to succeed in doing their violent activities there, it means we will be under threat, as an organisation we would not survive any more.  That's why we decided to go and report these things, not waiting for any incident to occur before we report.

CHAIRPERSON: During the launch of the South African Party there in the area, there's evidence here that there was a protest of some sort which had the effect at the very least of interfering with that launch, hooters were blown and whatever.

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes I was informed that day, I mean that day of it's occurrence.

CHAIRPERSON: Were no not present when that happened?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No, I was present in the meeting inside, then I was informed about there has been that chaos that has been happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go look at what was happening outside?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No, I got out after they have gone, taken second ....[indistinct] as it was said.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't, you won't be able to tell us who those people were?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No I can't but I was informed that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No I wanted to know whether you yourself?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR SMUTS: Now to the extent that Mr Hermans was able to assist us with evidence regarding the possibility of weapons
being stockpiled, this relied on heavy boxes that were off loaded with Mr Costello, was that your information as well?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes I got that information.

MR SMUTS: I see in this morning's newspaper that a journalist contacted him and he is reported as having said that he moved a large quantity of heavy boxes during that time because he owned a wholesaling and retail operation.  Are you able to dispute that?

CHAIRPERSON: Are we able to accept that?

MR SMUTS: The evidence of Hermans, Mr Chairman, was that he ran a supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we able to accept what is contained in that newspaper?  I intend making some comments about that activity later on when you've finished the evidence.  I might as well tell you now we're not really satisfied with the newspapers interfering with our work.

MR SMUTS: Well, can I put the question to you outside of the newspaper report?  Do you agree with the information of the evidence of Mr Hermans that there was, that Mr Costello ran a commercial enterprise at Port St Johns?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes I agree.

MR SMUTS: Yes.  Apart from the fact that heavy boxes were moved was there any greater information, more specific information on which you could rely for the suggestion that weapons were being stockpiled?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No, there's no greater information other than that except that it used to be a situation that in the morning you find perhaps a watch man from Costello's place going to the office about reporting that there were some suspicions that the weapons were off loaded to Costello's place so considering the question of the happening of the off loading as well as the time of reporting the thing, we could easily draw inferences that really, this could be case as it is reported by the reporter.

MR SMUTS: Did I understand your evidence correctly that by the time of Mr Hani's assassination you had not yet had an opportunity to investigate these suspicions to come up with concrete facts and prepare a report?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: About what?

MR SMUTS: About the suspicions that had been reported to you?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, Mr Smuts, that's why I asked initially that the report that there were AWB activities being conducted was accepted.  The investigation related to the details thereof.

MR SMUTS: Did you have any greater or more specific information than that detailed yesterday by Mr Hermans regarding meetings which were suspected of being AWB meetings?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No I don't have one.

MR SMUTS: Like Mr Hermans, you had no knowledge of the topics that may have been discussed at any of these meetings?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No I have no knowledge.

MR SMUTS: When your colleagues from Flagstaff then arrived, did you immediately come to a decision as to what it was that jointly you would do with them?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: And what decision did you take?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We took the decision of going to Mpandi where we informed them that that would be the proper base to launch an attack.

MR SMUTS: Why was it decided that Mpandi could be a proper base from which to launch the attack?

FUNDISILE GULENI: It was decided on the basis of information we received that that is the area where there used to be meetings of the anti-revolutionary forces, if I may put it that way.

MR SMUTS: And was that the only reason why that coastline was targeted because you had information that at some or other stage the anti-revolutionary forces had held meetings there?

FUNDISILE GULENI: It must not be forgotten that the main reason why we decided to go an launch an attack because we were retaliating for the killing of Comrade Chris.  Then we chose that area because we didn't want to hit anybody, we targeted that area because we suspected that it's the area where we can find the people who appeared to be against the revolution.

ADV SANDI: Ja but Mr Guleni - sorry Mr Smuts - before the assassination of Mr Hani did you not have a lot of time, plenty of time to investigate these rumours and suspicions?