Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

WALTER SMILES: I didn't count, I also didn't see and my instruction was I just had to get it inside the building.

PROF DE KOKER: But Mr Smiles, how did you then follow this instruction to ensure that there would not be any loss of life inside the building where this hand grenade had to explode, if you didn't have a look to see whether there were any people still in the building?

WALTER SMILES: It's a difficult question but I will answer it.  I worked according to my instruction - I don't know whether you're not understanding me, I worked according to my instruction, I had to make sure that there weren't people who would be killed.

PROF DE KOKER: But what you say here Mr Smiles, is that you didn't follow that instruction.  The instruction was to throw the hand grenade into the building, that is where the hand grenade had to explode - that was the instruction.

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: And there you had to ensure that no-one else would be injured.

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that is correct, I now understand what you say but unfortunately if it didn't fall onto the security guard - on his face, people would not have been killed.

PROF DE KOKER: If it didn't fall onto the security guard it would have fallen into the building - inside, where you say there were people, you didn't make the effort to count the people.

WALTER SMILES: That is what I'm trying to explain, I can't say whether there were people inside the building.

PROF DE KOKER: Now, how did you ensure ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he didn't say there were people in the building, you started it off - Professor de Koker surely - instead of building up to the point, you just said to the witness: "How many people were there in the building", without first asking the witness: "Were there people in the building"? - "Yes" - "How many were there".  You know you jump to - you just went and said to this person: "How many people were there in the building", and he said: "They were uncountable".
	Now, were there people in the building?

WALTER SMILES: I can't say if there were people inside the building, I can only remember that the security guard came out - I don't know whether he came out of an office to go out but people inside, I can't say.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know if there were people behind him?

WALTER SMILES: Where behind?

ADV DE JAGER: People behind the security guard who was hit on the head?

WALTER SMILES: The person came out, he was on his way, he was walking, he wasn't standing.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but were there people behind him who were also busy coming out or weren't there?

WALTER SMILES: No, there weren't.

ADV DE JAGER: I just want to ask you,  you stood at the back when you threw the hand grenade?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And you told us that you fell down because you knew that a hand grenade can injure a person.

WALTER SMILES: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did fall down because you could be injured?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, because I know of the explosion.

ADV DE JAGER: What about all the people between you and the building, couldn't they also be injured?

WALTER SMILES: I explained, it wasn't with intention but if the security guard didn't come out, the hand grenade would have gone inside but unfortunately when I threw it, it hit him on the head and then it exploded - that was the unfortunate situation.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you fall down before the hand grenade fell into the face of this man?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I lay down.

CHAIRPERSON: So regardless of whether the hand grenade would have fallen inside or outside the building, you were laying down?

WALTER SMILES: No, the time that I threw it, I turned around and then I lay down - that was when I threw the hand grenade.

CHAIRPERSON: When you lay down, you had not yet known that the hand grenade would fall or hit the face of the security guard, why did you lie down?

WALTER SMILES: Because I heard that it was falling onto the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were afraid that perhaps you could be injured, that is why you lay down?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But now Advocate de Jager is asking you: "But what about the people who stood in front of you - you didn't tell them to lie down"?

WALTER SMILES: There wasn't an opportunity to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Professor de Koker, you should tell us once you reach a convenient point.

PROF DE KOKER: This will probably be a convenient point before we cross over in new ideas Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn at this point.
	And you will have to think clearly about the point that we asked you about.

WALTER SMILES: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until half past 9 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS