Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

CHAIRPERSON: Why on earth did he go on the mission if he was going to be identified by people in the Church?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't want to lie sir, I do not know too because when they were instructed about the mission, I was not there myself, I was here in East London.  I only met them when they were supposed to go there, and I went with them, and then we left for the Transkei.

ADV GCABASHE: Paddy sorry, why would the Commander send, not only Kid, but why would you go, both of you lived in the area, both of you could be identified by the people who went to that Church, why would you be sent there?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The one who was staying about in the vicinity of the Church is Kid, at NU2.  I am staying at NU3.
	It is not near the Church.

MR PRIOR: Were you told anything about Bahai Church on your way to that mission, by TNT, Kid or anyone else?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, I remember because I knew what was going to be done at the Church.  What I did not know was whether it was the Bahai Church and where it was.
	Its name was new to me.  It was a new thing to me that at that spot, there was that Church.

MR PRIOR: Within the black community of Mdantsane there was this Church, or the Bahai Centre?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes sir, it was new to me that there was a church there, called Bahai, amongst black people in Mdantsane, that is so sir.

MR PRIOR: And the activities of the Bahai Church, do you know whether they were well known in the community of Mdantsane?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As I have said sir, to me that church I did not, it was the first time for me to know there was a church called Bahai at that spot, being attended too by white people.  It was the first time for me to know that day.

MR PRIOR: Perhaps when you got closer to the church, did you ask TNT or Kid why to such a dangerous target as you indicated, dangerous mission?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As I am saying I knew what was going to happen at the church, I went there knowing what was going to happen there.

CHAIRPERSON: That was, you were going there to kill the white people who were at the church, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, I knew that white people who were at the church, were going to be killed there.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that at the Church it was explained to your group, that these people who you say were white people, weren't in fact white people, but they were Persians, they were from overseas?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I cannot deny that sir, but during my presence at the Church there, I did not hear of any such thing.  I go to here about that at the Supreme Court at Bisho when one mother there, I do not know if it was Mamma Manuel or Mamma Manel sir, when she explained that the men who came in there, she had explained to that those people at the church, are not really white, they are people from Iran.
	I only heard about it for the first time at the court in Bisho.

MR PRIOR: I want to ask you, your mother is a nursing sister, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR PRIOR: And one of the deceased, Dr Bacshanderi, was also a Doctor at that hospital where she was working.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR PRIOR: Had your mother ever mentioned to you that these Persians or these people from Iran were at the hospital, that they were helping the community?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: When sir?

MR PRIOR: At any stage before you went to kill the people at Bahai?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, she never told me about them sir.  I only got to know after my arrest - do you my son, that one of the people who were at the church, was a Doctor at our hospital?  That is how I got to know about it sir because even outside, my mother has a house in town and I have a house at Mdantsane, we don't stay together.

MR PRIOR: I am still puzzled why you, sorry if I may ask this question, you said that you joined APLA in 1991 and you trained at Bizana.  The missions that you have described, or the operations that you described that you went on in March of 1994, were those the only missions that you went on throughout your membership of APLA?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR PRIOR: And if I understood your evidence and the statements that are put up that you say that you made, but some aspects are false, it would seem that you were only giving accommodation to the unit from Butterworth, for example in the Fort Knox matter, the minibus with the teachers, you were only providing accommodation, is that right?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is the truth sir, that in the matter of the John Knox and other incidents that happened afterwards, I was the one who used to accommodate them at my place.

MR PRIOR: Let's just concentrate on Fort Knox for the moment and not talk about other things.
	In the Fort Knox matter, you only provided accommodation and as I understood APLA's commitment to secrecy, you weren't informed of the details of the Fort Knox mission, is that right?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Do you mean sir that that is how you think, or are you telling me that APLA or I was not told or APLA what happened at John Knox (indistinct).

MR PRIOR: Are you saying, is it your evidence, that you were informed, the person who was providing accommodation, you were informed by the people staying at your home, the details of what the mission of operation was going to be, where the attack was going to be and who they were going to attack, or were you not informed?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I do not remember them telling me that they were going to go to John Knox and attack in whatever manner.

MR PRIOR: And when they returned to your home, if they ever returned to your home, you were also not told about the details of that attack, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I think that is so sir.

MR PRIOR: That is in line with the policy of APLA, for secrecy so that the Police couldn't follow up on these attacks, because to keep you uninformed was also their protection, that was the way it worked, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so sir, those are the rules of all soldiers in APLA in what you are not going to be involved in, you must not know about as to what is going to happen, how and where.  Even after it has happened, you must not be told about it, because you are not involved.
	Only those who are involved, must know about it and the one who was reported to.

MR PRIOR: I don't understand why you applied for amnesty for that matter.  You had no knowledge of it, you certainly didn't associate yourself with it.  What criminal activity were you asking for amnesty for?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I am applying for amnesty for the Bahai matter, the Da Gama case, the Highgate Hotel case, the Nahoon Dam case, the John Knox (indistinct) College of Education or whatever, that College.

MR PRIOR: Let me just put to you, my information is that you only became aware of the John Knox matter at the Bahai trial when your counsel was informed by Captain Els that if no amnesty was being applied for, that arrests were going to be made in that manner.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chair, if I might interject here, that is not true.  How can he lead evidence on something like that, without establishing that from me first?

MR PRIOR: I am going to, if necessary, if it becomes an issue, just call Captain Els.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it an issue what he told counsel, there is no evidence that counsel told her client?  You were asking as to what was told by counsel, what is the relevance of it?

MR PRIOR: Well, the relevance is that an issue is being made that he has made a complete disclosure, not knowing that he was in any way connected to that matter, and he has made application for Fort Knox.
	It doesn't seem to, on his own evidence, seem to be any crime which he has committed, with respect.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman ...

MR PRIOR: (indistinct) involves mens rea.