Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

CHAIRPERSON: So you killed a man whom you didn't even know.

MR NGCOBO: Yes, it happened at a bad time.

MR DE KLERK: What did you want to gain from this killing Mr Ngcobo?  What did you think was going to happen when you do this, how were you going to help anybody?

MR NGCOBO: I realise now the bad things that I did.  At that time, however, I wanted to gain popularity for my party, the IFP .  I was not killing everybody at random.  I used to persuade some of the people to join my party.

MR DE KLERK: Did you receive instructions from any person or superior that instructed you specifically - I actually forgot to ask also about Dan Cele, to instruct you to go and kill Dan Cele or to go and instruct you to kill Xolani Dlamini?

MR NGCOBO: No. I would not start lying now because I am arrested.  Zulu never instructed me kill.  He only told me how to run the party and I was transgressing what he was telling me.  I was doing this on my own volition and for my party.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you were not ordered by anybody to do so?

MR NGCOBO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And after killing people did you have to report to anybody that you had killed people?

MR NGCOBO: As a youth leader I did not want them to know what I was doing.  I preached peace when I was with them, but do my own things when I was alone during the night.

MR DE KLERK: Why didn't you practice peace, why did you decided to take the other route, the violent route?

MR NGCOBO: I preached peace on the one hand, and tried to build my party on the other. People were scattered all over and I was trying to bring them together.

MR DE KLERK: On that specific day, the 16th of March 1991, as was pointed out by the Commissioner and during your criminal trial, there was a charge of attempted murder that you tried to kill Thokozani Shazi, Geoffrey Sandile Ncane or Babazani Shezi.  What happened, did you only shoot at Xolani Dlamini or did you also shoot at other people?  	So what happened, did you only shoot at Xolani Dlamini or did you also shoot at other people?

MR NGCOBO: I shot at Dlamini and the others ran away.  I then finished him off.

MR DE KLERK: Did you shoot at any of the other people that ran away, or in their direction?

MR NGCOBO: I think they ran away when I was finishing this other one off.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Ngcobo, you said you shot at Dlamini and now you say that you had to finish off the one who was left, are you suggesting that you shot at him more than once?

MR NGCOBO: I think I shot him more than once because he fell in a furrow.  This happened long ago and I cannot be expected to remember everything, especially after being sentenced to death.

MR DE KLERK: Count number four in your criminal trial was also a charge of murder of which you were convicted, that happened on the 24th of March 1991 at the Mtateni bus stop and there you killed Thembinkosi Wellington Mauti Ngcobo, what happened there?

MR NGCOBO: Yes. Mauti and the other boys were popularly known as "boys from Six".  They were the main perpetrators of violence in that area, and they were killing people from my party.  We never met each other before, but we came across each other on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say: "We came across them", would you tell me who it was?

MR NGCOBO: I was with Nomacandane Shazi on that day.  We saw them when they were still far, and hid ourselves.  When they came nearer, I came out and called Mauti.  He came towards me, and when he realised that I was the wrong person, he tried to run away.  I shot him.

MR DE KLERK: Can you remember how many times you shot him?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember, but he died on the spot.

MR DE KLERK: Can you remember which firearm you used?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember whether it was a 765.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you kill him, what was your main reason?

MR NGCOBO: He was my political opponent because he was mobilising for ANC support and I was doing it for IFP.  That is the only thing.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Ngcobo, are you suggesting that there was no conflict between the two of you but you each wanted to mobilise that your group or each other's group should get support, not actually conflict that you clashed in some way but because you wanted to gain support?

MR NGCOBO: Political differences were the only reason, and this started after the release of the President.  The ANC started killing people and we started defending ourselves.  ANC members, however, were not arrested even when culprits were known.  They killed us and we killed them, and this developed to a competition.

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't a word from you about how, when you saw these people whom you looked upon as ANC, you were armed, you didn't take them to the police you just decided to kill.  You haven't said a word that the people you killed were armed in any way and yet without them being armed you just killed them.

MR NGCOBO: When there is a war you attack the unarmed.  You cannot attack an armed person who might injure you.  You have to trap a defenceless person.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Ngcobo, you've said several times now, you used the word: "war", at that stage how did you perceive that, a normal situation that if somebody does something wrong you would take him to the police and hopefully he will convicted in Court or how did you perceive the reality of that area at that stage in the early 1990's?

MR NGCOBO: I did not understand the police at Izingolweni.  They did not attend timeously to the complaints of attacks and they did not attend any complaints during the night.  They only visited the scenes the following day.  These people were also afraid of ANC members.  It is because these members had strong attorneys who defended them, and the police were afraid for their lives.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't seem to have made any efforts at calling upon the police at any time?

MR NGCOBO: I called the police when I was attacked in my brother's shop. I did that after I had realised that the way I was doing things was not taking me anywhere. I then looked for police protection and told them who were the people who had attacked me at that time. Those people were then arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR NGCOBO: So, when...

MR DE KLERK: Then on count five of your criminal trial you were charged of a charge of murder, that on the 19th of May 1991 at the Dlovinga area at iZingolweni you killed Muntuza Sgadlane Titiza Cele.

MR NGCOBO: Who are those people?.

MR DE KLERK: ...[inaudible] it was count number five at your criminal trial, it was a count of murder and you were also convicted of this charge on the 19th of May at the Dlovinga Ward, Dlovinga area, iZingolweni you killed Muntuza Sgadlane Titiza Cele and on the same day same area, Thomas Mfanafuthi Blose.  On the same day in the same area Goodwill Mxolisi Cele.  On the same day, the 19th you were also charged and convicted of the attempted murder at the same Dlovinga Ward of Maxwell Zulu and/or his other name, Fana Milton Cele.  Do you remember that now?

MR NGCOBO: Yes. I remember now. I was from the wedding. It was Sunday. When I arrived at the taxis, I found my brother's son Sandile. He told me that Mfanafuthi went to my house and said they thought that I had died. They left a message to say that they would get hold of me. I know Mfanafuthis very well and that they had left the area because of violence. I asked this boy where the Mfanafuthis were.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, what was your brother's son's name?

MR NGCOBO: Sandile.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR DE KLERK: Before you proceed, just explain to the Commission how did you know Mfanafuti Blose?  What did you know about his activities, what information did you have about him?

MR NGCOBO: Mfanafuthi Blose was a very well known comrade.

MR DE KLERK: As what?

MR NGCOBO: As ANC supporter.

MR DE KLERK: Did you have any information regarding his activities?  Was he just a normal person sitting at home or what did he do according to your information?