Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: They told you that you were injured or shot at the Library Gardens?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the people that told you this, who were they?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I don't remember their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know them?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I did not know them.  They told something that was there because it is evident, here am I confined to this wheelchair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just try and answer, I'm not going to be unnecessarily long with you, the people that told you that you were injured told you what that happened at the Library Gardens?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes, that's what they told me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody ever tell you that you were seen in the region of a place called Shell House?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I don't even know Shell House.  I don't even know that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Nobody told you about it?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: It's my first time to hear about that place here, I don't know that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any questions you wish to ask you client?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, if I may just place it on record, I don't think it is in any way in dispute that the particular pictures that I showed to Mr Maphanga, the objector, was pictures of a video which was taken on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street immediately outside Shell House, that is all that I wish to place on record for record purposes.  I don't want to ask my client any further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, any questions you wish to this witness?

MS PATEL: No thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I want to call Mrs Ntombela, being the mother of one of the deceased people, Veli Raphael Ntombela.  Mr Chairman, she will testify in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Ntombela, can you hear me, I am going to ask you whether you are prepared to take an oath to tell the truth today, do you understand?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes.

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: (Duly sworn in, states)

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mrs Ntombela can you mention to the Commission how old are you?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I was born in 1934.

MR VAN WYK: What is your education?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: We didn't go to school.

MR VAN WYK: Have you ever been married?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, I am married.

MR VAN WYK: Is your husband working?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: He's late.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Wyk, can we please have here full names for the record?

MR VAN WYK: Can you indicate to the Committee where you reside?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I'm staying at Ulundi.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Wyk?

MR VAN WYK: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: ...(inaudible) your client her full names for the record, I don't have them.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Ms Commissioner, I thought she gave them before she was sworn in.
	Can you for the record purposes give your full names please?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Agnes Delikulo.

MR VAN WYK: Could you mention to the Committee when your husband passed away?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR LAX: Sorry, the witness is saying 1981, it's not getting - the mike is being switched somehow or other.

MR VAN WYK: Do you know how he passed away?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Natural causes.

MR VAN WYK: Did you have a son with the name of Veli Raphael Ntombela?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please spell that name for us?

MR VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, can I assist you with the spelling?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR VAN WYK: Veli Raphael, and then Ntombela.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN WYK: This son of yours, did he support you?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, he did.

MR VAN WYK: Do you know when he passed away?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, during 1994.

MR VAN WYK: I want to show you a photograph and I will ask you to mention to the Committee whether you recognise the person on the photograph.
	Mr Chairman, for the record purposes, the exhibit was used at the inquest and at the inquest it was marked Exhibit "X1" in bundle 2.
Can I ask her, is she prepared to look at the photo, or.

MR LAX: If you'll just hold on a second, Mr van Wyk, just give here a moment to compose herself.

MR LAX: It's okay ...(indistinct) , you can take a bit of time if you need to.   Can you continue now, Ms Ntombela.
Mr van Wyk?

MR VAN WYK: I'm sorry, can I get your reply please.

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, I will.

MR VAN WYK: Did you look at the photograph?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, I did.

MR VAN WYK: Who is that on the photograph?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I see my son.

MR VAN WYK: Did he have any children?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: Who is at present looking after the children and maintaining them?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: It's myself.

MR VAN WYK: Do you have any employment?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I'm not working, I'm self-employed, I'm weaving some mats.

MR VAN WYK: Do you have sufficient funds on your own to look after these children and to educate them, that's the deceased's children?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: No, these are not sufficient means, because at times they don't buy these mats and we're left destitute as a family.

MR VAN WYK: Now you were present during this hearing when the guards at Shell House testified as to what they did, is that correct?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, I was listening throughout, but I do not understand the proceedings.

MR VAN WYK: But have you heard what they said?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, I did.

MR VAN WYK: Do you accept what they say?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: What I could say as a mother who has given birth to a son, who has experienced suffering, I know that I'll never ever be able to forget, and I don't know how I can ever accept that, because I'm suffering now, I'm working for other women because I want to make ends meet so that I'm able to educate his children.  As I'm here, I don't know what is happening to them because we are supposed to pay there school fees and I do not have the money to pay their school fees or to let them further their education, so it's very difficult on my part and I thought that I thought that my son as the breadwinner was the one who was going to maintain me for the rest of my life.  I never ever had any problem because he maintained the whole family as well as his children.  I could say he was the sole breadwinner and ever since he died I'm suffering and my suffering cannot even be described or equated to any.

MR VAN WYK: We have heard several of the guards expressing their regret as to what happened.  Do you accept that?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: It's very difficult for me to accept that.  How can I, I don't see any way in which I can accept it.

MR VAN WYK: Do you forgive them?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: They are with their families, their children are being maintained, they're being pampered, they're being spoiled and they are going to get educated up to wherever they want and Veli's children are remaining at home, they won't be able to further their education and they've got no one to spoil them.  There is another one who I'm already realising will drop out, the rest of them I believe will end up dropping out of school because of the lack of funds.

MR VAN WYK: Do you forgive the guards for what they've done?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I don't know whether you're joking if you expect me to forgive them for what they have done.

MR VAN WYK: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mrs Ntombela, I want to say to you that we understand the difficult position that you find yourself in, and I'm sure that anyone whose had children of his own would share your views about the death of your son.  You yourself don't really know what happened on that day, do you?