Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

MS SEROKE: At that time what were you doing Ngoato?

MR MOTSEPE: Could you please repeat your question.
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MS SEROKE: Were you a student at the time or were you just unemployed?

MR MOTSEPE: I was not at school at the time.  I was working at Elandsfontein at a certain contact but at the time the contract had expired.

MS SEROKE: When you started your federation ...

MR MOTSEPE: The main aim was to help the community because after a while this community, together with the Civic Association, they took the whole matter to the court of law.  That is why I am saying we were prepared to help the community because after a while, after we took the whole  matter to the court the people stopped beating us.

MS SEROKE: What did you actually take to the court of law?  Did you report that you were assaulted or you told them that you had the problem of incorporation?  Could you please explain to me.

MR MOTSEPE: Actually we told them about the problem of independence and incorporation because I think it is the reason why we were assaulted. Before those matters, there were no people beating us.

MS SEROKE: Actually did these people start to beat you before you went to court or after you took the matter to court did they continue beating you?

MR MOTSEPE: Actually they continued beating us but it was not as before.

MS SEROKE: Who actually was assaulting you?

MR MOTSEPE: The people who assaulted me were with Piet De Jager, a white policeman and one black guy who was called Magoma. They were together with this group of men who came to fetch me.

MS SEROKE: Was it not Mbcoto?  Was it the SAP?
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MR MOTSEPE: I did not know them because they were not wearing a uniform.

MS SEROKE: The way we understand this whole matter it was like most people were beaten and assaulted in the whole community.  You as the youth, did you know who were imprisoned or who were assaulted or who died at the time?

MR MOTSEPE: Yes, it was possible to know in our own area.  We knew if they took someone during the night and if people didn't come back.

MS SEROKE: After that what steps did you take?

MR MOTSEPE: We tried to see the lawyers to inform them that some of us were imprisoned.  Most of those people didn't come back because it was during the state of emergency. They used to torture and assault us and sometimes people spent a few months in prison.

MS SEROKE: If I understood you well you as the youth you didn't take the law into your own hands and protect yourself by beating those people too.

MR MOTSEPE: No, we didn't do that.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Mr Motsepe I just want to come back to your statement and clarify a few things.  You say when you were arrested part of the questioning was related to the death of the two policemen, two white policemen.  Is it the Fouries that they were talking about or was it some other white policemen who had been killed?

MR MOTSEPE: Yes, sir I think the issue or the whole matter of Fourie was the main issue because I was asked about that too.  And when I replied to them I told them that I only saw that in the newspaper because I am staying far away in Moudete and they forced me they said I didn't see it in the
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newspaper I know it but they didn't tell me why they were forcing me.

DR RANDERA: How soon after the policemen were killed were you arrested?

MR MOTSEPE: I don't remember well but it was after some time after we knew about Fourie's death.

DR RANDERA: Weeks?

MR MOTSEPE: I think it is after months, not only one month.

DR RANDERA: I just want to come back to the time that you were at Mr Nawe's house.  Again in your statement you say he was a former MK member.  Is that right?

MR MOTSEPE: Yes, it is true.

DR RANDERA: We were also trying to find out about the involvement of MK in this area.  Can you tell us a little about that.

MR MOTSEPE: What I know is that MK was protecting people in our area.  They were helping people who were harassed and assaulted.

DR RANDERA: Was there more than one MK person in the area at the time?

MR MOTSEPE: I only knew one of the MK members.

DR RANDERA: Again from your statement in the questioning that took place you say that you were being asked about people who had left the country. Were you involved in taking people out of the country?

MR MOTSEPE: That was not my work, to help people to go outside the country.  Those people thought I was doing that.

DR RANDERA: But young people were leaving the country.  You were aware of that.

MR MOTSEPE: Yes, people were just disappearing, we couldn't know where they were going to. Sometimes we would hear that
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they went to Zambia.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Motsepe, just to come back to the questions which Dr Randera posed to you.  In your statement you speak about these events taking place on the 8th May 1987.  Now the killing of Mr Fourie and his son is much later.  Is there a mistake in the statement, in those dates or are you just a bit confused given that these events took place so long ago?

MR MOTSEPE: I think I have forgotten the actual dates but I am right about the questions which were asked to me but I think I am not right about the dates.

RUSSELL ALLY: Because if you were being questioned in connection with the killing of Mr Fourie and his son then it could not have been in May, it must have been later.  So I think it is important that we clear up those factual issues.  In your statement also you say that you were arrested and detained by Captain De Jager and constable Makongwa.  Is that correct?

MR MOTSEPE: Yes, that is true.

RUSSELL ALLY: You were arrested and detained.  That is what you say in your statement but when Miss Seroke or Mr Manthata asked you about your torture you also mentioned Captain De Jager.  Now what is it, are you saying you were arrested and detained by Captain De Jager as well as tortured or that you were simply arrested?  I think it is very important that we get the factual record straight.  Who tortured you?

MR MOTSEPE: Like I told you that I was detained.  The people who dragged me out of the house was Captain De Jager and he was together with Makongwa.  He is the one who showed us his identity card.
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RUSSELL ALLY: I said that is in your statement but you were asked later about being tortured, not about your arrest, and you then said Captain De Jager.  Who tortured you?

MR MOTSEPE: It is all of them because I kept on hearing their voices, I couldn't see them because my head was covered.  It was many of them. I couldn't see them but I heard their voices.  Those two people I am sure they were there.

RUSSELL ALLY: So you couldn't see them because your head was covered but you think you heard their voices.  Is that what you are saying?

MR MOTSEPE: Yes, it is like that.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, Mr Motsepe, in the light of what is happening at the moment do you have any more knowledge or information about the killing of the Fouries?

MR MOTSEPE: Up to now I don't know anything.  I would like if I could hear something about that because I was assaulted because of them.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.