Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: We started using knives, bush knives and stones.  We would just use petrol - at that stage we had not started making petrol bombs.  We would go into peoples homes, maybe break the windows and then pour petrol over their homes.  As time went on Zekele Nkethle acquired a 7.65 and a 9 mm and a 2.2 gun.  Eventually we acquired a pump gun - that's how the fighting went.

MR WILLS: Now you say in paragraph 18 that you received assistance from the KwaZulu Police and that I believe is the KwaZulu Police who were stationed at the police station at Mpumalanga.  I would you to just describe that briefly for the benefit of the members of the community?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Initially there were KwaZulu Police who used an N.O. car.  These policemen helped us greatly with ammunition and they would also inform us of where the comrades were, that is how they assisted us.  There was Jablin Makatini who was Lieutenant Makatini's son and well as another person by the same name of Khulusi.  Those are the people that helped us.  Sometimes they would also arrest us in public and then they would take us to the police station and release us and return our guns to us.

MR WILLS: I want to refer you to the end of paragraph 18.1, that's on page 137 where you say that whilst you remember the names of some of those KwaZulu Police, there were also other KwaZulu Police who sometimes helped you.  Can you see that separate paragraph in the middle of page 137?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I see it.

MR WILLS: Where you say that sometimes there were so many policemen who were helping you that they would take up all the
space in the Kombi, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR WILLS: You say there and I quote
"I do not know the details of the other policemen but there were enough of them to take up all the seat space in the Kombi"
and this is referring to the light blue Nissan E20 Kombi that the KwaZulu Police used with the Melmoth registration, the N.O. registration?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now it wasn't only the KwaZulu Police that assisted you it was also according to your evidence in your affidavit you also got assistance from the South African Police in those days, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the members of the community the details regarding that assistance and the persons involved?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: There were three white men who were stationed in the Webber station - Mr van Vuuren and Mr Steenkamp.  Van Vuuren was a Warrant Officer, Steenkamp a Sergeant and a Mr Smith was the Station Commander.  Van Vuuren and Steenkamp used to help us because we obtained ammunition from them.  If one of my members was supposed to be arrested they will come to me and we would discuss it and the Station Commander deals directly with Zekele Nkethle and we will go to Zekele's home, sit down to discuss the issue and Zekele would take the person to the police station, would be granted bail and return with that person and the case would be withdrawn.  That's how they'd help us.

MR WILLS: And in fact you indicate on one occasion that you were forewarned of your own arrest, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you were told that you would only be arrested in order that things could calm down after which time you would be released.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And did that in fact occur?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes.  I was still working at Glacier Bearings, I was fetched by Steenkamp and Mr van Vuuren.  We gave him a nickname 6-11.

MR WILLS: And why did you give him that nickname?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: He normally used a car whose registration number was 611 and we eventually nicknamed him 6-11 and he enjoyed this.

MR WILLS: So I mean the inference from that evidence that to the effect that you had frequent dealings with this person you nicknamed 6-11?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is like that.

MR WILLS: Now the fact that the KwaZulu Police and the South African Police who were both organisations that were supposedly there to ensure law and order and protection of the communities in the areas were assisting you in your operations.  How did this make you feel?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I realised that that was good for our community, that made me happy because I realised that white men who were really white, instead of arresting us they were happy of what we are doing so we were now the members of their central committee and those people were authorising me and indeed what I was doing was correct and good.

MR WILLS: Now you say in paragraph 19 that you eventually met the Caprivis and you met a person who also featured prominently in this hearing, a person by the name of Madla Induna whose proper name is Daloxholo Lethuli.  Can you just explain that?  And I'm referring to page 139, paragraph 19 of your affidavit.

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I see that now.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the community - remember the community don't have the affidavit - can you tell the community how you met Madla Induna?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: When I met Mr Lethuli we met in a camp called Indaga Mazolo.  Madla Induna used to come with the Willem Tunu, Walther Bongo, Nati Sebisi, Zwele and Sosha.  They used to be the guards of our meetings but they wouldn't enter but stand outside and that actually confused that at some stage  and we actually asked why these men they usually stand outside instead of coming in but Madla Induna indicated that they couldn't come in.  That's how we met these people at the IFP meeting and then I also met them at the Mkuzi Camp.

MR WILLS: And it was at that stage that you became aware that they had been trained outside the country, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is like that.

MR WILLS: And you say that you received some ammunition from Mr Lethuli from time to time?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes we used to get them from him, Madla Induna.

MR WILLS: Right, I now want to turn to discuss the incidents that you were involved in, in Mpumalanga, which are dealt with briefly in paragraph 20 and I'm obviously going to ask you to give more detail but I want you to - briefly before I do that, I want to ask you if these were all the incidents you were involved in?  Can you recall that?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I do remember.

MR WILLS: Is it not possible that you've forgotten certain of the incidents?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is possible because I was working in the Transvaal and in Natal.  I used to work in a lot of places killing people so I cannot remember all of them as they are.

MR WILLS: Now these are the ones that you can remember, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is like that.

MR WILLS: And that if you can be reminded of other incidents, you certainly will be prepared to testify about them if you can recall when you're reminded, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is like that.

MR WILLS: I want to start with the death of one Khaba, a UDF supporter from Unit 3, Mpumalanga.  First of all, as I understand it, at that stage Unit 3 was a UDF area, is that right?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us about what you know about the death of this Khaba?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: This boy, the son of Khaba, died when we were from a meeting that we had with Zekele Nkethle at Las Vegas.

MR WILLS: Just before you go on, you've used the word Las Vegas in your affidavit.  Just for the benefit of the community, what is Las Vegas?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Las Vegas is a place where we used to meet.  That is Zekele's place, Zekele Nkethle who was my leader, that is his place.

MR WILLS: Las Vegas was the nickname given for his house, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Okay continue?