Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

MR VALLY: Well, let's leave, let's be specific, that he was in fact kidnapped and murdered by then members of the South African Police.  Are you aware of that, that there's an amnesty application pursuant to this kidnapping and murder?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I do not know who the people are who were involved.  I read that he had been abducted, but I don't know about that, but I know that he had been abducted by the Security Police in one or other way and was killed then.  I don't know how and I don't know who were involved regarding that specific action.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that a General is claiming amnesty for his abduction and murder, a General of the Police Force, an ex General of the Police Force?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, can you mention his name?

MR VALLY: I think it had come out in public hearings already, Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Right, yes.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: It had to be the previous head of the Security Branch at Port Elizabeth.  Which year was that, I don't know who was there.  I had nothing to do with the Security Police's activities.

MR VALLY: My question is this, you being the upper echelons of the Police, and you joined as a Colonel in 1971, by '74 you became a Brigadier, in a space of three years you became a Brigadier, surely you'd be discussing those issues at that level?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: No, not at all.  At all meetings of Generals, no operational action with regard to people who had disappeared or were possibly hurt, not even the Biko case was ever discussed.  It did not form part of the general function of the staff of the Generals.  It was part of the Security Police.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that there was an action pending by Mr Mtimkhulu against the South African Police?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: It was reported as such in the newspapers, yes.  I think that was the reason why the Attorney-General took action if I remember correctly.  I think we're now talking about 20 years ago, approximately 18 years, ago, I'm not sure.  When was this incident?

MR VALLY: It was in the early 80's.  Let's go on.  There was evidence given here by Dr Jan Lourens that at the time he was Managing Director of Systems Research and Development, he was approached by you to accommodate a man by the name of Bart Hetima at his company.  Do you know about Hetima?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I think it's just reversed.  I introduced Bart Hetima to them.  I met him in 1977/78 in Eastern Cape.  He was the man who at that stage was the only man who had knowledge of the packaging of aerosols.  He had a company in which he was the sole shareholder where he made aerosol cans, and at that stage we wanted to have our CS teargas packed in aerosol cans because that was a very handy way of using it.  The Americans had already started using it in the late 60's and we started with tests in Komga and thereafter in Middelburg in the Cape, where he had his premises.  He assisted us with the formulation of CS cans, and this became general equipment in 1982, and '83/'83 I met Lourens for the first time in '84/'85.  Then the abilities of Bart Hetima came to the attention of Dr Wouter Basson, because he met him while he was with me while we were doing the testing for the CS gas formulation.   Thereafter at one or other stage he worked for one of the companies of Dr Basson.  Which one it was exactly I do not know.  So, Dr Lourens, I don't think he's correct, he's not a doctor, he's Mr Jan Lourens.  He has a degree in Engineering from the University of Pretoria.  Is this another Dr Lourens.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: He is a Dr Lourens, your attorney would tell you, he was present when he gave evidence.  He advised us that you brought Bart Hetima to them and asked him to employ Mr Bart Hetima as SRD, Systems Research and Development.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: That is not true, Dr Basson did that.  I did not even know of the existence of SRD.  The existence of SRD was made known to me by Dr Basson, and this was after we tried to get the capabilities similar to the ability to get the authorization and control, commander control post, and to have that established.  It enables four Commanding Officers, two for example in whatever trouble may occur, for which the Task Force is used of the South African Police to be able to execute that function, and to be able to issue the different commands in the air without being intercommunication between the four teams.  And there a Mr Jan Lourens received the contract which went out on tender to build that facility for the South African Police.  That was the first time that I became involved with him, when he provided us with that electronic facility.  It took approximately 1 1/2  years before we got hold of that piece of instrumentation.  In that ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: What year was that, please?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I can go back in my documentation, unfortunately I did not bring it with because I did not think it was important, but this was in the mid 80's, approximately '85/'86.

MR VALLY: Are you saying that is the first time you met Dr Jan Lourens?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: That is the first time that I met Mr Jan Lourens.  If he received his Doctorate degree in the meantime, then he must have obtained it during the time that he was busy with his academic studies.  I have no knowledge of the fact that he had a doctorate degree.  I won't take it away from him either if he has one.

MR VALLY: He does have one, and it's a PHD.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I'm glad to hear that, but I would like to know when he got it because I haven't seen him for quite some time.

MR VALLY: Fine, let's go on.  Do you deny then that you brought him, Mr Bart Hetima, to Mr Jan Lourens where Mr Hetima was working at your request regarding the putting of, as you say, CS gas into aerosol cans?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Absolutely, I'm saying that the man who offered Bart Hetima employment for the ability that he had in the manufacturing of aerosol cans, was Dr Basson, Wouter Basson, and whether it was in my presence or not, he said to Jan Lourens here is a man whose expertise you can use, see what you can do with him, because I had nothing to do with Protechnic, nor with Technotec or whatever other companies existed.  While we are on that point ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Can I just, before you go into that, can I just get some clarity.  You say Dr Wouter Basson asked Dr Jan Lourens to employ Mr Bart Hetima, it may or may not have been in your presence.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: That's correct.  That's exactly what I'm saying.

MR VALLY: When you say it may or may not have been in your presence, is it because you had regular contact with Dr Wouter Basson?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I had regular contact with Dr Wouter Basson from the end of 1983 onwards.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what this contact was in connection with?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Yes, I can tell you that it was just after General Johan Coetzee took over as Commissioner of the South African Police in '83, the end of that year, August of September, I cannot recall, I received a call from his Staff Officer to tell me that I had to come and see him.  It was an afternoon.  I went there to his office and found in his office, Dr Nico Nieuwoudt, Minister Louis la Grange, as well as Commissioner Johan Coetzee.  I was then asked ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Sorry, Dr Nieuwoudt was the Surgeon-General at the time?