Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

ADV PRIOR: Your evidence as I understand it when you read it out on page 16, you were informed coming back from the murder on Bhila, that he was an ANC activist.

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, as I can recall when we drove back, when Rosslee, Frank and I were alone in the car I asked him more about it and I wanted to know where this man fits in and then he told me the finer details.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Bosch, it's a simple question.  We would like to know from you what was in your mind when you drove up the mountain, did you realise that you were in the process of murdering Mr Bhila or did this not come to your mind?

I D BOSCH: Yes, it did.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  So you knew when you left the shooting range, you were on your way to a place where Bhila would have been murdered?

I D BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: And in the vehicle, this sack, was it on his head?

I D BOSCH: When we started driving the bag was on his head.  It was a little bit dark but if cars pulled up next to you and they see somebody with a bag over his head, I think the bag was placed on his head a little later.

ADV PRIOR: At the place where he was eventually shot, did Mr Wasserman get out of the vehicle?

I D BOSCH: As far as I can recall everybody got out of the vehicle.

ADV PRIOR: At the place where he was shot later?

I D BOSCH: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Did anybody speak to him?

I D BOSCH: Not as far as I can recall.

ADV PRIOR: When he was shot, did he sit down, kneel down, did he stand?

I D BOSCH: He was sitting at that stage, Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Do you recall who shot him?

I D BOSCH: Yes, Frank and Rosslee.

ADV PRIOR: Who shot first?

I D BOSCH: That I cannot recall, Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: When he was shot by the first person did he fall?

I D BOSCH: No, he just stayed sitting.

ADV PRIOR: After the first shot?

I D BOSCH: Yes, as far as I recall.

ADV PRIOR: Or did both people shoot him simultaneously?

I D BOSCH: No, it was not a shot and then a shot, it was just two shots and then it was finished.

ADV PRIOR: And who threw him over the precipice?

I D BOSCH: As far as I can recall it was Spyker and Michael but I might be wrong, that Spyker wasn't   there.

ADV PRIOR: We know the area was not known to you.  We have a request from the family as to where you disposed of Mr Bhila's body and this request is made to all the applicants.  If in the following days you can come together and try and indicate the place more or less.  It is very important for the family of Mr Bhila to know where the body is or where the body was disposed of.

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, with the greatest love I will to help to find it but I think the one could most, I'm not trying to say it is him, it could maybe be Lawrie he knows the area and I'm willing to help.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I ask the witness to stick to surnames instead of using christian names, I find it terribly confusing.

ADV PRIOR: A last aspect.  In Mr Rosslee's application for amnesty, page 24 of the first bundle he says
"Then in Durban ..."
And I quote, perhaps I can quote the English:
"In Durban we were met by Mr L Wasserman of the local Security Branch.  He told us that two of the accused in the Amanzimtoti bomb blast criminal trial had been acquitted but were still continuing their subversive actions.  Our task was to arrest them for purposes of elimination."
Do you recall anything like that?

I D BOSCH: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: I would like to put it to you, according to Mr Rosslee's testimony and Mr McCarter's testimony there was a group and this information would have come to you as a group or to McCarter alone when you were not with the group.

I D BOSCH: Mr Chairperson, as I recall it I cannot recall if I was deployed with them in Durban or whether they called me from another place but because they worked here so long in this area I did not interfere with their arrangements and planning that they had with the local branch's people.  If there was any work they gave me the work and I did it.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Bosch, it was put to you by Mr Prior that at a stage when you left the park up the mountain you knew that Bhila was to be killed.  According to your recollection, was this an inference that you drew or was this a fact that you recall that Mr McCarter or any of the persons have told you?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, this is where my problem is today, I cannot recall who said what to me and when, I cannot say.

MR ROUSSOUW: From the situation, would you have drawn such an inference?

I D BOSCH: I could have drawn an inference, yes.

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUSSOUW

ADV SIGODI: Just to follow on on what Mr Prior asked you.  His question was: "What was your role at the shooting range"?  What I want to find out from you is what were you doing there the whole day?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, we just sat there and waited.  We conversed with each other and we just waited.  I read a book or a newspaper and just waited.

ADV SIGODI: Where was the deceased at this time, was he in a separate room or was he in the same room as you were?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, we were not in a room we were outside and he just sat there next to us.

ADV SIGODI: Did you not seek to extract any information from him at any stage?

I D BOSCH: No, Chairperson, not at all.

ADV SIGODI: Then why did you stay the whole day and not ask what is going to happen to this person, why are we being kept here, what is the purpose of him being here the whole day until sunset when he was taken to the place where he was killed?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, we got there early in the morning and we waited for it to get dark.

ADV SIGODI: Precisely, that's why I want to find out why you had to wait until it was dark.

I D BOSCH: So that we could take the arrested person away.

ADV SIGODI: And take him where to?

I D BOSCH: To kill him.

ADV SIGODI: In other words you knew that you were waiting for sunset for it to be dark so that you can take him away in order to kill him?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: And you also knew that throughout the course of the day whilst you were waiting?

I D BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson, but I don't know what time I was informed about it.

ADV SIGODI: But the main purpose of you staying there was to wait until dark so that you could take this person in order to go and kill him?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: The other aspect which I want to cover from you is, you say that this incident was not just a cultural shock, it was also a spiritual shock for you and afterwards you did not want to go and talk about it, you wanted to get it out of your system and at the same time you say that this is the only incident that you were involved in that was of this nature.
	You say you felt guilty or you wanted to get it out of your system, didn't you at that time believe that what you were doing was the right thing to do?  Didn't you believe that you were doing the proper thing as a member of security?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, at that stage I was a member of the anti-terrorist unit and there was a war between us and the ANC/SACP.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, that's precisely what I want to cover with you, what was actually going on in your mind, because you give us the impression that you had a spiritual shock and you wanted to forget about it but at the same time you give us this impression that what you were doing you believed in, you were actually doing, the thing which you were doing was the right thing to do.  It's what you believed in because you believed you were at war with the ANC.

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.  I wouldn't go and kill someone who is not my enemy, not at all, I wouldn't be able to do it but this, I do not know how to explain this to you, it gave one the ability to do this.