Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

ADV SANDI: Mr Zwane, I think I have heard you saying for more than two times, everything possible had to be done.   What did your Committee have in mind by saying everything possible?

MR ZWANE: We were thinking that there might be a way and means of acquiring firearms so that they could protect the community and what was uppermost in our minds, was that if there were people who had guns, they would get those guns and protect themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: By fair or foul means?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct because it was a war situation.  There really was no sympathy, we had our sympathy with the people who were being attacked.
	There were only a few people going around carrying guns and those are basically the guns we were referring to.  It didn't matter with us as to how they managed to get hold of the guns.  If they managed to get hold of the guns with a smile from the owners, that was okay, but if not, still acceptable.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane, will it be correct to say that at some stage you and or your Committee became aware of the fact that armed robberies were being committed with the view of financing and arming the SDU's?

MR ZWANE: Yes, we did hear about that.

MR HATTINGH: Was it reported to you by any of the operatives?

MR ZWANE: It was not reported by the operatives, we were not communicating really with the operatives.  We only communicated with Mr Mkhwanazi.  He is the one who was reporting on all developments, and we would make the necessary approval.

MR HATTINGH: Who reported back to the Committee about the armed robberies that had been committed?  If you could just give us the name?

MR ZWANE: Jabu Mkhwanazi.

MR HATTINGH: How many armed robberies did he report to your Committee?

MR ZWANE: He reported on two armed robberies.  He reported on the first armed robbery and after some months, he came back to us to report on another robbery.

MR HATTINGH: About which two armed robberies did he report to you, if you could just identify them?

MR ZWANE: The one that happened at Piet Retief, that is the robbery that took place there, and the other one that happened at Secunda.  I don't know exactly where but I am told there is a mine or a firm, that is where it took place.

MR HATTINGH: Was that the incident where Mr De Bruyn got killed?  Would that assist you,  (indistinct) compound incident?

MR ZWANE: I would not be in the position to explain really, but I know that a white person died at Secunda and another one got injured.  If that is the one that you are talking about, I think, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did your Committee then approve of the fact that those robberies had been committed?

MR ZWANE: Yes, we accepted it because there was no alternative.

MR HATTINGH: When you discussed the situation with the late Mr Chris Hani during July 1990, did you discuss with him the possibility of armed robberies to be committed?

MR ZWANE: No.  We did not discuss that.

MR HATTINGH: Did he give any indication in that regard, that it was to be allowed?

MR ZWANE: No, he did not.

MR HATTINGH: You  - I just want to find the paragraph - you and your Committee acted under the instructions of the ANC command, when you did what you did in this area, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: I would say yes that is the case, even though there were some instances where we had to make decisions ourselves such as instructing them that they should do everything in their power, in their means to bring about peace and stability.  We didn't get that from the ANC, we made that decision ourselves.

MR HATTINGH: If you could just clarify or tell us more about the command structure that you fell under, who they were and what instructions you in fact got from them and at what time?

MR ZWANE: There was no structure under which we operated except to say we liaised with Chris Hani.  We went to him for the first time asking him to assist us procure firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly that this Committee whatever form it was made up, was an authority onto itself here in the area of Ermelo, Piet Retief etc?

MR ZWANE: No.  The Committee was based here at Ermelo, concentrating on what was happening here.

CHAIRPERSON: And it saw itself being entitled to issue orders or not?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct because of the circumstances here at Ermelo at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Explain to me then, if that is so, what was the connection between the Committee and Chris Hani then?  Chris Hani being on the (indistinct) of national authority.

MR ZWANE: Yes, there was connection.  That is after we went to him, deliberated with him and he indicated to us that we should go back home and do all in our power to see how we defended ourselves and maintained stability.
	That is when it became necessary that we set up a Self Defence Unit for this purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: So he didn't have authority over that Committee?

MR ZWANE: He did have authority.  What I was just trying to explain here is that things such as doing whatever in our power, that was something that we decided ourselves, because we had nothing with which to protect ourselves.
	The SDU's therefore had it incumbent upon themselves to do everything within their means to defend the community.  I am saying here that this is not necessarily something that came from Chris Hani, but the person in charge here was the one who had to make that decision.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hattingh, one moment.  Mr Zwane, did I hear you correctly, did you say that you also went to Mr Hani to ask him to give you, to help you with arms, is that right, did I hear you correctly?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct.  Initially we didn't have knowledge, I think it was about 1990 shortly after the unbanning of the ANC, we thought that when we went to ANC, should I say Chris Hani himself being a soldier, he might be in the position to help us with firearms, and he then explained to us that they didn't have arms.
	Instead we should come up with our own means to protect ourselves.  I don't know whether that answer is satisfactory.

ADV BOSMAN: No, that is what I wanted to clarify, thank you.

MR HATTINGH: Did Mr Chris Hani imply that you were allowed to commit armed robberies to obtain arms, or did you understand him to imply that?

MR ZWANE: As I have explained, he never gave us that authority and we never, ever assumed that he was saying that.  But because we were frustrated here, that is why we made these decisions.
	He said we should form the Self Defence Units and protect the people, and we decided that we should do everything at our disposal to protect the people.

MR HATTINGH: Would you please turn to page 13 of the Bundle, the first paragraph on page 5 of your statement, paragraph 15 on page 13 of the Bundle.  The third line it is said that and to put into practice the orders received from the ANC command.
	To what orders are you referring to in this sentence?

MR ZWANE: Here we are talking about the setting up of the Self Defence Units.

MR HATTINGH: Did you receive any further orders from the ANC command apart from that very first instruction from Chris Hani in July 1990?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, if he did other than what he has already said, what relevance would that be of?
	We are busy with certain applications for amnesty in respect of certain issues.  He said that the orders he received was to ensure that Self Defence Units were set up.  He has already said and this could be the only relevance, that the decisions as to how to maintain and arm these Self Defence Units, was a decision made locally.
	That is quite relevant to the applications.  If he received any other orders, of what relevance would that other orders be to this application?