Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.  I just want to clear up something, on page 82 you say that three passengers were killed, you probably mean four?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, there we made an error, it is not that we wanted to hide anything, there were four persons.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: No questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: No questions thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: Thank you, no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: No questions Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Relating to your last answer, why did you say there were three occupants?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I would concede that we made a mistake, these were well known facts and we definitely made a mistake in that regard, it was supposed to be four persons.

MR MOERANE: Who is "we", yourself and?  All the people who made statements from the same computer, same words, not so?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Didn't you read this before you signed it?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, I read it and I must have not noticed the mistake.

MR MOERANE: Do you know a person by the surname of Rajbansi?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, I have heard a lot about him.

MR MOERANE: What do you know about Mr Rajbansi?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Well, there are many  jokes that have been made about him, he was a respected person in the community in Durban and surrounding areas, but I don't know him personally.

MR MOERANE: Is that all you know about him?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: There may be something else which I may recall later, but not at this stage.

MR MOERANE: Was there any reason to mention him in your statement?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I will have to study that first and then I can give you an answer to that question.

MR MOERANE: Look at paragraph 6.

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, I know about that.  About the incident of an explosion in Durban, I knew about it, at a stage it came to my attention, it was also in the news.

MR MOERANE: Tell me about that incident, what do you know about it?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: This took place quite a long time ago, I cannot recall precisely what everything was about.

MR MOERANE: Why do you decide to mention it in 1996?  What relevance did it have?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I don't know, I cannot really recall what the precise reason is for the fact that I mentioned it at that stage, it escapes me now as to why I might have mentioned it at that stage.

MR MOERANE: Did Rajbansi have anything to do with the incident in respect of which you were making your application for amnesty?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: No, I don't believe that he had anything to do with the amnesty application for Piet Retief and these incidents.

MR MOERANE: Isn't the correct position Mr Barnard, that all these statements which were in identical words, had Mr Rajbansi's name, so you just decided to sign it?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I cannot really respond to that, at that stage the facts were more clear to me and I recalled them better, and that is what I made my statement according to.

MR MOERANE: You see, what I am suggesting to you is that you have put your heads together, not necessarily that you were at the same place, but you put your heads together and decided on a version that you must give for your amnesty application?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I wasn't with any person who was involved in this incident, when I made the statement.

MR MOERANE: Yes, well you deposed to your statement in Knysna on the 11th of December.

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Do you know how to spell Rajbansi?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Well, I am not a linguistic expert.

MR MOERANE: On this occasion, this was the first occasion now, you shot at this motor vehicle, the Toyota Corolla?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I don't really understand.

MR MOERANE: You fired at the motor vehicle?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, I fired at the Toyota Corolla.

MR MOERANE: And you discovered later that the occupants were not armed?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: Then you involved yourself again four days later, in another ambush?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: What did you feel about having shot unarmed people?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: At that stage, before the incidents, I did not know that these persons would be unarmed.  I was very clearly under the impression that they would be armed.  We said that it would be an ambush and I associated myself with that.

MR MOERANE: The question I am asking you, after the event, after you realised that you had shot unarmed people, three of whom were women, how did you feel?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: Chairperson, at that stage, our country was involved in a struggle against terrorism and many acts of terrorism were committed throughout the country, especially in the Eastern Transvaal, there were many cases where landmines were detected, there were many explosions that we heard of in previous cases as the evidence has been here and I don't know whether those acts were committed by a man or a woman, I think that both a man and a woman can be responsible for the same acts of terrorism.  If a trigger is pulled, no one will ask if it is a man or a woman, they can be held responsible for exactly the same deeds.

MR MOERANE: Is that your complete answer to my question which I put to you twice?

GERRIE JOHAN BARNARD: I don't know precisely what you want me to say.  I would try to understand the question better in Afrikaans.

MR MOERANE: Well, let me put it to you for the third time.   How did you feel after realising that you had shot four unarmed persons, three of whom were women?

MS VAN DER WALT: I am not trying to interrupt matters here, I am sure that everybody would like to finish off this application, but I really do believe that Mr Barnard has answered the question, he said that when they were shot, he did not know that they were unarmed.  He said that the country was involved in a war.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was how did he feel after the killing, we take it that he felt nothing or what?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, but I would just want to say that he elaborated regarding the women, because that question was also put to him that if one pulled the trigger, he said a man and a woman enjoy equal status.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh no, we heard that, but I don't think that was the question, how he felt about shooting, it was how did he, himself, feel after the shooting, not whether there is any difference between men or women enemies.

MR MOERANE: Mr Chairman, I was actually trying to be very fair to the witness, because I thought he might have misunderstood the question, that is why I am asking him the third time, and it is being interpreted to him in Afrikaans.  If his legal representative doesn't want him to answer, I think it can only be to his prejudice.  I was just trying to assist him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think it was a fair question.  What Mr Moerane wants to know Mr Barnard is, after the shooting and four people were dead and it came to light that they weren't armed, how did you feel, you yourself personally, what did you feel, what were your feelings at that time after the shooting?