Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-24

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: I will request to do this.  The attack I've already made mention of in the past, I will want to show the response of the community now.
	I would like to state that earlier on I did make mention of the fact that we were promoting the ANC branch in 1990, October.  There were already problems that we were encountering inasfar as the taxi violence was concerned in the area.
	One other thing that I would take note of is that as an ANC branch we arose at that time and got active and tried to negotiate and have discussions with the IFP.  I've already highlighted that in April 1991, we managed to have contacted IFP members like Abraham.  It became a bit easier for us to negotiate and discuss much better under the National Peace Accord.  That was towards the end of 1991.
	And in 1992 we went on active in the committees.  There were problems that were erupting and emerging still in the process.  I do trust and believe that the applications that have been rendered to the TRC will bring this to the surface.
	One other thing that I would like to explain is that around 1991, because violence started in 1990, it caught up with us as mere people not knowing what was happening.  This is why the first decision that was taken by the branch and the members was, we should go and negotiate and discuss peace with them.  And we did so much in our power to bring this to fruition but towards the end of 1992 all this was to no avail.  All the discussions and negotiations we tried to facilitate were all to no avail.
	I would like to mention that even before there were people who were civilians in the area who tried so much in their individual capacities.  Some were ANC members and Umkhonto weSizwe as well.  They tried so much to see and to apply means of defending the community.
	I would like to say this now.  Besides the ANC members there were other civilians as well who tried to apply measures in trying to defend themselves because we were being attacked by firearms.  It so happened that the community got together to donate money or contribute money.  I did earlier on indicate that firearms were easy to gain access to.  It was easy to gain access in gathering firearms at the time.  You will go anywhere else and you will find people from Mozambique and others who will be selling firearms.  All that mattered was that you must have enough funds to purchase.
	Now at the beginning of 1993 the only danger that we were encountering as a community was that the weapons were galore in the area or residential area.  We do trust and hope that even at that time the committee, the National Peace Accord Committee and its structures had begun discussions revolving around the security, that it's not doing as much to protect the community and they now had to try and look at other strategies to employ in defending the community.
	Now it was so obvious even to that National Peace Accord that the community protection structures or committees, I don't quite remember as to what they were known as, it suggested that the community must see how they can fend for themselves in as far as protecting themselves, that's when ANC, we do remember because Comrade Ronnie Kasrils tried so much to help and get in touch with the people who were discussing this that ANC does have a part or does play a part in helping the community to protect itself.  I may say that for the sake of our lives that had to be done, that's when the community of Thokoza started discussing issues to that effect.  We were trying to see as to how we are going to overcome the problem that we're encountering, that is defending ourselves as a community.  It is with regard to that, that ANC nationally and regionally or provincially endeavoured to put across, across peace desks nationally and provincially.  Now those peace desks of ANC, I will note and emphasise on the one that was closer to us that is our province desk province, that is where we had Robert John McBride, who was working very close with - he was a coordinator of that ANC peace desk and we were referring to it then as PWV but known now as Gauteng Province.  He was so much of great help to us, he was able to show us that as branches of the ANC surrounded by violence, how can we overcome this problem and employ mechanisms in defending the community.  That was point number one he tried to help us with.  We were able to at the branch of Thokoza go and meet in Bloemfontein.  There was a West Vaal Peace Secretariat offices there who will get there and listen and be able to put across suggestions and address the problems we encountered and secondly, he was able to work from that office and inspect or monitor the situation that prevailed in the area.  We had problems as well that people will get arrested for they did not know much about law.  When one has been arrested we would be able to gain access or to have legal representatives and we will also be taught and be told about our legal rights as well.  Another thing that was quite important that the co-ordinator used to do, he helped us so much in arranging the structure as to how we will be working.  The SDU's central command is how the structure will work and carry on it's duty.  He helped us so much in arranging and organising the structure and putting it into order.  I have already indicated how much was done by the co-ordinator and I may take longer if I explain in detail as to how the structure worked but I will highlight on the code of conduct how it was brought about.  We had a report that was prepared by the organisation that we referred to at all times.  
	Another thing which used to be carried by this desk, it will be the way of gathering people so they may be trained because some of the problems we encountered was that people, those who were attacked, were not even fully conversant with the use of the weapons so that they will be injured or they will injure themselves because they did not know how to operate the weapons.  There were problems relating to that as well but then this desk, this peace desk helped us so much that we could be able to gather people and train them in the use of these weapons because one other thing that I'd like to emphasise is that the weapons were brought to the people and people did not know how to use these weapons and had no experience of using these weapons, now they had to learn hands on as they were working trying to defend themselves.  Now that's not sufficient training.  We also had a greater part to contribute because most of the weapons, there was no need for ANC for supply these because they were already galore in the area, they were lying around all over.  You will have guns all over.  They only thing that we were running short of was ammunition so the problem we encountered was to gather all the people who were armed and arrange them according to structures so that we elect also leader of that structure and so on and so on then we could work together unitedly because the only problem that will emanate will be that the majority of people were armed and you have a situation where there is a structure without a leader to give them guidance then the chances of having problems of injuring one another were high that way.  So I'm trying to highlight that the desk was co-ordinating in seeing that these problems don't emanate in this fashion.  Now the desk also was helping us in a way that we could be able to monitor the police brutality.  We had to be efficient in this.  According to be the situation that prevailed at this particular time, the way things were happening and as our organisation was so much supportive to us as I've already highlighted in the past that you could not ask a person from which organisation was he coming from or what's his name, you will just say to them all those who are armed, go one side and all those who don't have arms, one side.  Then we'll elect a person who will be the leader of the director of those particular groups of people with arms.  
	Another thing that I would like to highlight, I've already illustrated in as far as ANC is concerned, but the whole community was also active.  There is another application of amnesty that we will be rendered into the TRC by the way, there is a certain brother here by the name of Mulisi Stilebe.  He is in prison in Glendillen, Pretoria.  I do not know whether his application has already been submitted but I know that he has filled an application form for amnesty but there are other important things that I'd like to bring to your attention.  Firstly being because of all the endeavours that we put into place by the community, he was able therefore.  This has not come to the surface, he is not known but he has already applied amnesty for, he was able to, with others, to get to a police station in Kliprivier and confiscate all the weapons from the police that were there to supply to the community.  We followed that and we realised that it was - he was not sent by anyone.  We knew that they gathered in to solve the problem that was rife in the area.  Now they were ale to get to the police station and take all the weapons and bring them back to the community.  That's the point I'm trying to highlight.  Secondly, is the case that he was convicted for - that him and others - I won't get down into details here because he has put all the details in his application form.  He went to Diduza area to fetch weapons and as they were coming back from Diduza with weapons they met police and he was convicted as he is now serving his sentence.  The first, second, third charge are as follows - their charge was that he stole a car.  The major point I'm trying to bring here is that these things were covered by the violence that was rife at the time.  They had stolen a car the previous day and used that particular car to fetch weapons bring them here and on 
the way they met the police and there was a conflict and they started fighting each other, the two groups that is, and some died but he managed to escape the situation, he ran, he fled.
One police died and the other police got injured in that incident and also the case of stealing a car, I was bringing this to your attention to show that the community tried to employ certain mechanisms in defending itself.  The most important thing is that the community got aware that it was being attacked by weapons such as firearms therefore it was appropriate for them to have in their possession as well, the firearms to revenge or protect themselves rather.  
	Now, if I may be permitted, I would like to get into the structures and the modus operandi how we used to operate as structures.  Annexure 3 and 4 it's with regard to the structures.  If the Commission so permits I would be in a position to explain this to you that how did we used to operate as structures.  But the community's response, I'm saying it in my capacity as a resident of Thokoza for two years in 1991 and 1992, we're so much after peace, we tried all we could to achieve this.  Even after we've put up the structures the beginning of 1993 it was so apparent that if you were after peace you should arm yourself to gain that or to achieve that peace.  I hope this is clear, if you want peace you would have therefore to arm yourself ready for war so you can achieve that peace.  So it's clear now that weapons were all over the show.  
	Now I will proceed to the structures and I will bring to attention the illustration of annexure 3 and 4.