Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't want to speculate as to what Mr Jones said, but that is not how I understood it.  I am not aware that we distributed it, that it was our propaganda.
	He said it, he saw the pamphlets in Leipoldt Street and he also mentioned to me the certain pamphlets which had been distributed in East London in that same period.

GEORGE BIZOS: He said all that after you had mercilessly beaten him up with a hosepipe?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.   That is why I am telling you he gave that information afterwards, I didn't know about that.  I didn't know anything about Zuki Skoiya, those were things that he told me.  I didn't tell him anything, that is what he told us.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, let's just take it a little bit further.  You say that you only assaulted him once?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether anyone else assaulted him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I don't know.  I didn't see it, it didn't take place in my presence, I didn't see it.

GEORGE BIZOS: He says that he was assaulted more than once and this is why he wrote out two statements.  Why should he have written out two statements, on your version, if he was only beaten up once?  Those two statements have been put in as Exhibits A and B, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to check something.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, to whom would he have made the second statement, or on whose request would he have written out the second statement?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I will ask the witness.  At which instances do you say that these statements were made?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Siebert also told him.

ADV DE JAGER: Let us deal with Exhibit A, to whose insistence was Exhibit A written?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was on my request.

ADV DE JAGER: And Exhibit B?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Exhibit B was written at the request, if I remember correctly, of Siebert.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the period of time that elapsed between these two statements?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, if I understand you correctly, is it the period of time after he wrote it?

CHAIRPERSON: The statement which he wrote out when you asked him, what happened to that statement?  Did you give it to Siebert?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, while he was busy writing it, Siebert literally confiscated it.

CHAIRPERSON: The one that he made to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.  When Siebert came in about after about half an hour and he, Jones was still writing about his involvement with the pamphlet and Siebert then asked him to also write about his visit to Cape Town, and the new unity movement, that is what I can recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: What do you say to the suggestion that the interrogator was really Siebert, you were there as the man of violence to do some of the beating up?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: If you interpret it in that way, it is possible, but it is not true.  I wasn't there to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Niewoudt, then you mustn't talk about interpretation, either it was so or it wasn't.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I received no instruction to commit violence.

CHAIRPERSON: Please listen to the statement again.

GEORGE BIZOS: The interrogation was done by Siebert, you were there as the man to do the physical punishment?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's come back to the other question which I don't think has yet been answered.
	If he was beaten up only once, why did he make more than one statement?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I have said already, after I assaulted him, he was prepared to write out the statements, and when Siebert asked him, he also gave his version of his visit to Cape Town and the unity movement.

GEORGE BIZOS: What is your evidence, was Siebert aware of the fact that you had beaten Jones up or not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.  I can't remember, can't recall having told him that I had beaten Mr Jones.  Nobody asked me about it, I can't remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: How long after you had finished your beating, did Siebert come in?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I am speculating, it could have been half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Niewoudt, I wanted to ask you this question later on, but let me ask it right now.  Here was a person being questioned for ten hours and he refused to cooperate.  Suddenly you found yourself alone with him, you beat him and as a result of that beating, he starts to cooperate.
	Then your colleagues came in and you say that they didn't ask you why this man suddenly changed his mind, why is he suddenly prepared to talk?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I would like to help the Commission on this point, but I can't remember them asking me anything about that, I can't recall whether they asked me how I had managed to obtain his cooperation, and I didn't walk around boasting about the fact.
	Whether they told Goosen anything or whether they boasted about the cooperation that I had obtained, I really don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: When Siebert came in, was it obvious that Mr Jones was uncomfortable as a result of the beating and the pain?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It is possible.  I can't really remember, but it is possible, and I think that he must have been because I hit him hard.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you tell Mr Jones that he was not to complain about this to anybody?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I might have.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you or didn't you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I can't remember that I told him that.

GEORGE BIZOS: When Siebert came, being your senior, if Mr Jones thought that Mr Siebert didn't know anything about this, can you explain why he didn't, he Mr Jones, did not complain to your senior and say, what is your Sergeant doing here beating me up with a hosepipe, this very hosepipe that was there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He didn't do it, that is not the way it happened.

GEORGE BIZOS: After you had finished, I assume that you put the hosepipe back where it had been before, on the window sill?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I put it down there.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know for a person who had shed bitter tears of pain, he could hardly have recovered after half an hour, could he?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Well, he did.  He did suffer pain, but he didn't show it, not after half an hour.  He was prepared to write the statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have you finished the statement that you had asked him to write out by the time Siebert came in?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.  I don't think he had finished, because he gave me an oral explanation as to the pamphlets and the visit.  I can't recall exactly at which stage he was in the statement when Siebert entered, that I really cannot recall, but I don't think he had finished.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you tell Mr Jones that you needed the statement in order to call him as a witness against Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.  I did not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you discuss with Mr Siebert as to whether or not you would use Mr Jones as a witness against Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.  I didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you get the idea that he might be used as a witness against Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was my inference which I made when I questioned him when he was prepared to tell me about certain things, that is when the possibility presented itself to use him as a witness.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I am not going to be very much longer with this witness, but I think we would like an opportunity to consult with Mr Jones in relation to some of the matters that were raised with the witness.
	I am reasonably certain that we will finish comfortably tomorrow, but perhaps, if you do grant an adjournment now, we could possibly start earlier tomorrow morning in order to ...

CHAIRPERSON: If we do so Mr Bizos, would you finish by lunch time?

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, long before.  With this witness, but then there will be another witness.