Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Mr Vermeulen.  Have you ever been involved in a combat situation before the incident on the 15th of October 1985?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Could I ask you - can you hear me?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I can hear you.  Can you hear me?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Ja, I can - there was just a moment when I couldn't hear you.  May I ask, you are referring to a combat situation, could you please be more specific.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Well what would you describe as a combat situation?

DOUW VERMEULEN: A combat situation, if you ask me to define it in my own words it would be a situation that you would find in warfare or a conventional war.  I had previously been involved in stone-throwing incidents.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Have you ever been involved in such a combat situation?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No never.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And crowd control, have you ever been involved in crowd control before the Trojan Horse events?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Yes I was involved in crowd control but on a smaller scale, and also relating to crowds larger than this particular crowd, for instance during so-called illegal marches.  I was involved in some of those but never in something exactly like this.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So when you say you've been involved in crowd control of a smaller scale what exactly do you mean?  Do you mean the crowd on Thornton Road was the biggest you were ever confronted with?

DOUW VERMEULEN: It was the largest crowd who had ever thrown stones at myself or my members of my section.  I had been involved in smaller crowds.  I might be wrong if I try and estimate now after 12 years but if I have to do so today I think perhaps groups of about 20 people where a single stone was hurled at the Police from quite a distance away.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Have you ever used ammunition on any crowd that you've been involved in?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I can't remember, if you could perhaps be more specific, perhaps give me more details about a specific incident.  I don't know whether teargas or whatever was used.  But if you can give me specific incidents then maybe I can help you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Well maybe you could give me specific incidents when you were controlling a crowd and using ammunition, that's the question.  Have you ever been involved in any crowd control where you had to use ammunition?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Chairperson I'd like to help you, I'd like to be as honest as possible and I would like to give you details of specific incidents but at the moment I can't think of a specific incident.  If it occurs to me during the course of the day I will mention it.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Ja I see you really are trying to help me.  How long have you been a policeman for?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I started as a student in 1975.  I was too young at that stage to go to the Police College.  I joined the Railway Police just after my 16th birthday and there it was a rule that you could only go to the College when you turned 18.  This took place in 1976.  I was part of the last intake of the Railway Police, the intake of June to December and from 1976 to 1990 I was attached to the Police.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I really want to know more, a bit about how in the past you have acted in crowd control situations so my question relates more to the length of time or the number of years you spent in the force particularly in relation to controlling crowds.  Surely you could remember, I mean did you control crowds in 1984, in 1983, in 1980, when did you start?  Was the Athlone event the first time you ever controlled a crowd?  I am sure somewhere in your memory you will find that bit of information.

DOUW VERMEULEN: I already told you on Monday, and I would like to repeat that for the benefit of those who weren't present on Monday, if I remember correctly I told you on Monday that in August 1985 that I really became involved in the unrest situation when we were seconded as a group to cooperate with the South African Police.  So my experience was from August 1985 to when this incident happened in October 1985, so it was about two months.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So was this your fifth, your fourth, your tenth experience?  Just roughly, I mean I just really want to have an idea of how often before the Athlone events had you been involved in crowd situations.
I'd like to ask you not to refer to the Monday experience because that is an in camera hearing and it is a confidential hearing and if you start referring to it then we might start responding to it and making reference to it.  It's for the use of Commissioners when we are making a finding and we are not allowed to use it in public.  So please if you could respond to the question.

DOUW VERMEULEN: Firstly my apologies, secondly, it's difficult ...(intervention)

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Was it the first time you were involved in a crowd-control situation when you went to Athlone, or was it the second?

DOUW VERMEULEN: This specific day in Athlone, is that what you are referring to?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am referring to the specific day and I am referring to the specific situation, had you ever had another similar situation before?

DOUW VERMEULEN: That was the first one on that particular day.  It was the first of its kind for me.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Is this according to your memory or what your Advocate is telling you?  I just want to know.

DOUW VERMEULEN: No my Advocate is not actually prompting me here.  I can recall only one such an incident and that is the incident for which we are appearing here today.  If you will allow me ...(intervention)

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: No I accept that, thank you.

DOUW VERMEULEN: I can't recall whether I had been in a crowd control incident earlier that day or not.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So this was the first one that you were ever involved in?  I just want to make that point.

DOUW VERMEULEN: The Interpreter used the word the first one in which you had ever been involved, if that's what you mean I told you I can't recall whether I had, earlier that day, before 4 o'clock in the afternoon had been involved in controlling an unrest situation, that is what I recall.  I don't know what the exact words were that the Interpreter used.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now I am not sure whether the problem is the Interpreter or with my question to you.  I am not talking about that particular day, I am not asking you if you were involved on that day before you went to Athlone.  And if I say were you ever involved, it's not referring to the day it's referring to other incidents of crowd control.  Now could you respond please so that we can pass on to the next question.  I mean it doesn't matter if this is the first time fine, say so, all I want to know was it the first time or are there other similar incidents in which you were involved, that's all I want to know.  If you can't remember fine, but I just want to know had you ever been involved in an incident similar to Athlone?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I was involved in previous incidents, yes, as I told you it's difficult to give you numbers.  If I think of the Athlone area then I can recall one incident, if one could call it an incident because it's circumstances were rather different, so I have problems myself in seeing the comparisons here.  I think it was the 10th of October and I think it happened in Belgravia Road.  Burning blockades had been erected, they were very high these blockades or obstructions.  What I can recall is that we were driving, there were a whole convoy of cars on the way to these burning obstructions and at some point all the vehicles stopped, the drivers got out of the vehicles and the next moment ...(intervention)