Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-09

N D NTANZI: Yes, I left the area.

MR LAX: And where did you go and stay?

N D NTANZI: At Mhawulu, I stayed with relatives there.

MR LAX: How far is that from your area?

N D NTANZI: It's quite a distance.

MR LAX: So is it far from Ezendopi?

N D NTANZI: Yes, it is far because I'd take a bus from there to Ezendopi.

MR LAX: Where is Luthuli's place, is it at Ezendopi?

N D NTANZI: It is at Ezendopi.

MR LAX: But you were busy camping at Luthuli's place when the decision was taken to kill your brother.

N D NTANZI: Yes, I was.

MR LAX: And you also told us that you were part of the people who were defending this area with your camping, is that not right?

N D NTANZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: So how could you be staying somewhere far from the area and still be camping in the area and defending the area?

N D NTANZI: I used to visit my mother and on such occasions I would meet with my IFP colleagues, and also during school holidays I would come and stay at home and then I would go to camps with the other IFP members.

MR LAX: Now how old was your brother?

N D NTANZI: I am not sure but I think he was about 30.

MR LAX: And you were about 19 at that time?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I was 19.

MR LAX: So apart from what you may have been told by people, you have no idea about how your brother played a role in the ANC fighting the IFP?

N D NTANZI: My brother was an ANC member because these people who were not known to me used to come and visit him at my home.

CHAIRPERSON: You've just said they were not known to you, you don't know who they were, do you, you didn't know.

N D NTANZI: I did not know them because they were not residing in the area.

MR LAX: Why didn't you go to the police and say to them; listen chaps, there are a whole lot of people who regularly come to my house, these people seem to be involved in the violence, won't you just come and we'll let you know when they arrive and you just arrest the whole lot of them, why didn't you do that?

N D NTANZI: The police could not do this because they were unable to arrest them.  A person would be killed but no-one would be arrested.  The Induna went to report to the police that there was a problem in the area and they were unable to assist.
	I think that the police from Eshowe also played a role in this violence because one of my father's brothers was killed by the police.

MR LAX: So why didn't you go to the kwaZulu Police then?

N D NTANZI: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: Why didn't you go to the kwaZulu Police then? They would have been more favourably disposed towards you.

N D NTANZI: There was no kwaZulu Police Station in the area.  The one was at Mbongulani which is very far from where I lived.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We started and have been going on for some time, is there anybody who requires an urgent adjournment at this stage?  You're alright, we can continue?  Very well.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chair.
	This killing took place at night, didn't it?

N D NTANZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And immediately after shooting your brother, you ran away, you left the scene, you did not want to be discovered, is that right?

N D NTANZI: We actually went to where we had camped, to Luthuli's.

ADV SIGODI: The four of you after killing him, you went back to where you had camped?

N D NTANZI: Yes, and when I went home in the morning I pretended as if I did not know who had killed him.

ADV SIGODI: So this killing was supposed to be done in a clandestine manner?

N D NTANZI: Yes, it was actually the secret of us as IFP members.

ADV SIGODI: How many of you were there when you decided to kill your brother?  How many of you as IFP members were there at that meeting where you were camping?

N D NTANZI: There were many, it was a group of IFP youth members.

ADV SIGODI: Approximately how many, 100, 30, 40?

N D NTANZI: Maybe we were about 30.

ADV SIGODI: And when this decision was taken, was it taken by the whole group or was it just a few of you who decided that you are going to go and kill your brother?

N D NTANZI: The decision was taken at that meeting.

ADV SIGODI: Was it taken by the whole group of you?

N D NTANZI: It was taken by us as the youth.

ADV SIGODI: Who was the leader at that meeting?

N D NTANZI: Our leader had been shot and killed, so there was no leader.

ADV SIGODI: At that meeting as the IFP youth, who was the leader, who was responsible for convening the meeting?

N D NTANZI: ...(no English translation)

ADV SIGODI: Was he still alive at that meeting?

N D NTANZI: The meeting was held just between us as members because the chairperson was already late.

CHAIRPERSON: But you an assistant youth leader?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I was the assistant.

ADV SIGODI: Who was responsible for identifying your brother as a target to be killed on that day?

N D NTANZI: We discussed this amongst all of us and we just decided that we should go and attack, kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say earlier that you suggested that your brother should be killed?

N D NTANZI: We discussed this matter as youth members because I could not just suggest it just for myself.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, I understand that, but surely one person ought to have come up with a name to identify a target.  Now what I'm asking you is, who is the person who came up with your brother's name, that he is the one who should be killed?

N D NTANZI: ...(no English translation)

ADV SIGODI: Who?

N D NTANZI: Nyawa Zinjama said that he should be killed.

ADV SIGODI: And then who decided who should go and kill him?

N D NTANZI: He is the one who also suggested that three people should go and then the three of us then went on the attack.

ADV SIGODI: He suggested that three people should go, did he say who must go?  How were the three of you chosen?

N D NTANZI: He is the one who said who should go.

ADV SIGODI: Why did he choose you?

N D NTANZI: So that my brother would not have a problem in opening the door.

ADV SIGODI: Tell me what is it that had happened on that day, were there any IFP members who had been killed on that day?

N D NTANZI: The IFP youth leader had been killed a month prior to this attack.

ADV SIGODI: In other words, at the time that you held this meeting, no IFP members had been killed at that time, prior to your brother's killing?

N D NTANZI: That is the chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: He had been killed a month before?  Is it the one you say had been killed a month before your brother was killed?

N D NTANZI: Yes, he is the one.

ADV SIGODI: Now what I want to know is, what is it that precipitated or that prompted you to want to go and kill on this particular day?

N D NTANZI: There was actually no opportunity to carry out this act because the police were milling around the area, but we saw this opportunity on this day and we went to kill him.

ADV SIGODI: You say the police were milling around the area, in other words there was no violence because the police were milling around the area, is that correct?  Do I understand you correctly?

N D NTANZI: Please repeat the question.

ADV SIGODI: Are you saying that there were no killings because the police were milling around the area, you did not have time to kill people?

N D NTANZI: The police would normally be present in the area but they would sometimes leave.  The incident was carried out at night.

MR LAX: No, you're missing the point of the question completely, or maybe you're just avoiding answering the question, we don't know for sure but let me explain what is being said to you.

N D NTANZI: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: You tell us the police were there, therefore you couldn't carry out any revenge for the killing of your leader, your youth leader.  That is how I understand your answer, is that right?

N D NTANZI: Yes, we were unable to carry out an attack immediately thereafter.