Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

WINILE VEVEZA: When he said we should go with him to town, we had to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been trained in how to use a firearm?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, I was trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

WINILE VEVEZA: In Fort Beaufort.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

WINILE VEVEZA: By the APLA cadres, Tamsanqa Duma and Diesel Sione.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, Diesel Sione is presently stationed at Pietermaritzburg in the South African National Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm saying for the information of the Committee, Diesel Sione is presently stationed at Pietermaritzburg in the South African National Defence Force, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And what kind of arms were you trained in?

WINILE VEVEZA: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: In what kind of arms were you trained to use?

WINILE VEVEZA: Every arm that was used in South Africa, I was trained to use them.

CHAIRPERSON: From handguns to?

WINILE VEVEZA: To rifles.

CHAIRPERSON: To cannons?

WINILE VEVEZA: Every firearm here inside South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: And why didn't you carry a gun with you when you went on the operation?

WINILE VEVEZA: We were not just given firearms.  We were not given firearms for such operations, we had to take bayonets with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?  You're trained to use any kind of firearm in South Africa, whatever that my mean, and yet you don't go with a weapon that you are acquainted with to go and complete a mission, can you explain that?

WINILE VEVEZA: When the commander came to me directly, when I was commanded directly by my commander of the task force he would give me a firearm to show me that I'm supposed to go and do that job.  I was not supposed to take a firearm by myself.  It had to be given to me by my commander.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I speak for myself.  I find it strange that the PAC would arrange for this operation to take place and not to equip all its members of that team with arms so that they can successfully complete that operation.  Have you got any comment about that?

WINILE VEVEZA: It happened.  We completed the operation successfully even though we were not given firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that.  What I'm saying is that I find it strange that you were not equipped with firearms so as to ensure the success of that operation.

WINILE VEVEZA: It was successful even though we were not armed.

CHAIRPERSON: In terms of your evidence, correct, I'm not questioning that.  Can you explain why you were never given a firearm to go on that operation or why you never asked for one, seeing that you were able to use any one that was available in South Africa?

WINILE VEVEZA: I want the Committee to be clear.  If the commander came to us as the task force we would have been given the firearms.  The commander went to APLA and we went on this operation because we got this information from APLA and we were told by APLA what to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you ask for a firearm?  You were going to a place where there were firearms, you didn't know whether the owner of those firearms would be in a position to shoot at you in your attempt to take those firearms, why didn't you ask for one?  You were able to use it.  You were able to defend yourself with firearms.

WINILE VEVEZA: We wouldn't ask for firearms because we didn't know what we were there to do.  We knew what we were in that place, what we were supposed to do.  We didn't know from the start.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then go with a bayonet then if you didn't know what it entailed?

WINILE VEVEZA: We normally have bayonets with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, why did you feel that you couldn't request access to firearms when going into that operation?

WINILE VEVEZA: We were fully armed the way we were.  There was no need for us to ask for a firearm.  There was no need for us to all have - there was no need for us to have firearms, all of us.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you consider asking for a firearm and then deciding, look I don't think it's necessary for all of us to have firearms, one is sufficient?  Is that so?

WINILE VEVEZA: We didn't consider that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that Mr Biko's firearm was sufficient, with the other two having bayonets to complete the operation successfully?  Do I understand your evidence correctly?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, that was enough for what we were there to do because we did manage to do it successfully.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about before you left on the mission, did you think that that was sufficient?

WINILE VEVEZA: I don't want you to ask me about before the operation because I didn't know about the operation  before I was in Franciscato's home.  I knew about it when I was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely, precisely.  So you didn't know what the operation held out for you, why did you not request a firearm?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Mr Chairman.  I think Mr Chairperson you don't find each, maybe on the interpretation.  I don't know but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Will you tell what was supposed to be interpreted?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think the question is the mission, that he was aware of the mission.  What he's saying in Xhosa is that he was not aware of the mission until they were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me clear that up.
	You knew you were going on an APLA task force operation, not so?  Correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was not addressed from the start about that.  I hear that when I was in Franciscato's home, that we were there for an operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you go with Biko then when he told you to come with him?

WINILE VEVEZA: Because I'm used to going with him.

CHAIRPERSON: On operations?

WINILE VEVEZA: Even if we were just going to town sometimes we would be together because we were staying in one area.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  When you stopped outside Franciscato's house, did you not then realise that, look we're on an APLA task force mission now?

WINILE VEVEZA: What he told me was that we should go inside Franciscato's house.  He then went through the gate.  I didn't ask him anything because ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen inside that house?

WINILE VEVEZA: I knew what was going to happen there because he told me when we were at the gate.

CHAIRPERSON: What, what did he tell you?

WINILE VEVEZA: He told me that we were going to attack in that house and we were going to take firearms.  What I asked him was whether we were going to find these firearms.  He said yes, there were firearms.  He knew that there were firearms in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: And you believed him?

WINILE VEVEZA: I believed him.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage you were armed with a bayonet.

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it that time that he pulled out the gun or only inside the house, that Biko pulled out the gun?

WINILE VEVEZA: When we were knocking at Franciscato's home he opened the door, he opened the upper door and he came and he pushed the door.  He asked us what we were looking for.  He then said - he asked him whether the lady by the name of Joyce was working there, Franciscato said "No".  When he was pulling the door he then pulled out a firearm, Mabuti pulled out a firearm.  He grabbed and pushed the door.  He kicked him and he went inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  So at the gate when you found out for the first time what the plan was, you would take firearms there, the only thing you knew of between the three of you is that you had a bayonet, correct?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you at that stage say: "Mabuti, we can't go take firearms when we are only armed with a bayonet, give me gun or let's go and fetch guns first"?

WINILE VEVEZA: I didn't think about that, I thought about what we were going to do there.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were not adequately equipped to go and fetch guns while only armed with, as far as you were concerned, one bayonet, not so?