Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1999-06-21

MR MOGALE: I've no knowledge because Mr Seane's house was far from Mr Ntsime's house so I would not be able identify those who went to his house.

MR MULLIGAN: Didn't you hear maybe people speak about the lady who was killed at Minister Seane's house?

MR MOGALE: Yes, I heard that information, because even in court the judge spoke about that person.

MR MULLIGAN: But on the 10th of February, that morning, didn't the people speak about the lady who was killed? Did you hear about it on that day?

MR MOGALE: I've no knowledge. I did not hear on the
particular day, that is why I said the judge even stated in court that, and again, those people who were investigating this case, said that there are people who were, who have been killed.

MR MULLIGAN: So you have no knowledge of which group went to Minister Seane's house?

MR MOGALE: That is so. I've no knowledge.

MR MULLIGAN: No further questions. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MULLIGAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mulligan. Mr Seabela, do you have any questions you'd like to ask this applicant?

MR SEABELA: No, Mr Chairperson, I don't have any questions to ask the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mogale, did you work very closely with Mr Pirie?

MR MOGALE: I was sort of his clerk. I was his clerk.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you fulfil a administrative function? Was that basically your duty?

MR MOGALE: I was doing purely administrative work, because
I was, I used to go to the tents. What Timothy wanted to happen outside, I used to help him. For example, filing and other duties outside.

MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, did you have any training in using weapons? Using firearms?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Was this part of your training? I don't understand. Were you basically administrative, did you have a function, did you have, how many times did you have this training?

CHAIRPERSON: If you could repeat your question, Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: You said that you were a clerk and you did filing and so, basically administrative function, but I want to know from you, you said you also had training. How many times did you undergo this training? Can you explain to us, please?

MR MOGALE: I did military basic training from the 17th of March 19 up to the 10th, I don't remember whether it's November or October, that is when I passed out. Then the second training happened in 1987. I did that for three weeks.

MS LOCKHAT: Did Mr Pirie inform you of this coup before the 9th?

MR MOGALE: I started knowing about the overthrowing of the government on the 9th, that was in the morning. He used to say he wanted to talk to us, but he did not say what about.

MS LOCKHAT: You say you were assigned to Minister Ntsime's house. Is that correct?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: When you got to Ntsime's house, explain to us exactly what you did.

MR MOGALE: I came to the front door together with those I was with. Then I tried to shoot the door jack then that door was not able to, we were not able to open. And those who were at the back, were able to open. Then others went at the back, then I remained where I was initially.

MS LOCKHAT: So you stayed outside after you shot.

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: How many shots did you fire?

MR MOGALE: If I remember well, I shot four times. After, in terms of the ...(indistinct) of the investigations, it was shown that it, that there was shots more than four times, but I am not able to tell who was responsible for additional shots.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you shoot with your, with the R4 rifle or 9 mm?

MR MOGALE: I shot with the 9 mm pistol.

MS LOCKHAT: I just want to refer to Ms P Ntsime's affidavit that she had made, it's on page 47 of the bundle. At paragraph 4, she states that jewellery and her son's watch as well as money went missing from their house during this operation. Do you know of anything regarding this?

MR MOGALE: I have no knowledge about that.

MS LOCKHAT: Would you say that on that particular day you were basically following orders? That you were following the orders of Mr Pirie?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: So Mr Pirie was your commander, that's right?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you yourself personally agree with this operation?

MR MOGALE: Yes, that is correct, I agreed with this operation.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Mr Dlavane, do you have any re-examination?

MR DLAVANE: No re-examination, Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV SIGODI: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question, thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mogale, on page 16 at paragraph 13, you said there was a matter pending in Bosele Supreme Court. Was that also wrong information that you gave there, that there was a civil matter pending in Bosele Supreme Court?

MR MOGALE: Yes, I do see that. This is about the overthrowing of the government. Bosele is the Supreme Court where we were convicted.

ADV BOSMAN: Fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when did you join the Defence Force, Mr Mogale?

MR MOGALE: (not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I mean the Bophuthatswana Defence Force?

MR MOGALE: On the 17th of March 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you also unconditionally released from the sentence that was imposed during 1991?

MR MOGALE: Yes, I was released unconditionally.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I just want some clarification here. If you take a look at page 13 of your, page 13 of the bundle, page 3 of your application. It says under paragraph 10(a), "State the political objectives sought to be achieved." This is the political objective of this coup you were involved in 1988. And you say "to reincorporate Bophuthatswana into South Africa". Was that one of your objectives that you would have liked to have achieved at that time?

MR MOGALE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would have been prepared to have, for Bophuthatswana to fall under South Africa in 1988?

MR MOGALE: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR MOGALE: Because Mr Mangope was a dictator.

CHAIRPERSON: What were your feelings about the South African government at that time?

MR MOGALE: It was oppressive, but it was better, better than being oppressed by people of your own.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising from questions put by the Panel. Mr Dlavane?

MR DLAVANE: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, before we proceed...

ADV BOSMAN: May I just follow up on your question, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

ADV BOSMAN: Did Mr Pirie tell you that the objective of this coup was to have reincorporation of Bophuthatswana into the South Africa system?

MR MOGALE: Yes, he stated that objective that if other political parties are not able to help us, for example, Triple P, because we did not know as whether it would be able to govern. If we are not, we the Tswanas are not able to govern ourselves, therefore we will take the government to the white people, that is the central government.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. Mr Dlavane, any questions?

MR DLAVANE: Thank you, Chairperson, there are no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulligan?

MR MULLIGAN: Thank you, Chairperson, no questions. Thank you.

MR SEABELA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mogale, that concludes your evidence. Mr Dlavane?

MR DLAVANE: Mr Chairperson, we do not intend calling any witness for or on behalf of the second applicant. That means that we will conclude the evidence of the two applicants before this Committee this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane. Mr Mulligan, do you intend to call any witnesses?