Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-25

CHAIRPERSON: The document which bears your signature, which reflects that you took the statement from ...

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I was preparing this for the Attorney General who wanted these statements very urgently, wanting to establish who had compiled those statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you to say that you signed this document in contemplation that Mbuso Enock Tshabalala was going to give you a statement and then sign the statement?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he give you the statement?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: No him personally.  This statement was brought to me with Major Booi, with other statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who took the statement from Mr Tshabalala?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: No Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Colonel, just one question from me.  Was it normal to put your signature here whereas the person who allegedly purported to have made the statement, have not signed it, was it something which is usual or something which is normal?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: It was not something that was normal or usual.

MR SIBANYONI: What was the reason in this case to put your signature here when the statement is not attested to?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: The Attorney General wanted this statement very urgently because of the situation at that time.  When he was checking the statements, he saw that the person who compiled the statement was not written.
	Because we knew that this person was going to appear in court, the person who took the statement, he will stand in front of the Magistrate or the Judge and he will say that the statement was his or the statement was not his.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you no further questions, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hugo, do you have any questions to put to Mr Willy?

MR HUGO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  Colonel Willy, who was the Head of this Investigation Team that was tasked to bring the culprits to book and to take them to court?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: It was Major Gileli.

MR HUGO: Now, Colonel Willy I don't want to unnecessarily burden this Committee with further documents, but I put it to you that in the docket that was supplied to us, containing various statements, Mr Gileli who was ostensibly now in charge of this Investigation Team, said that he was at one stage taken off the, or removed from this investigation and it was given to somebody else to proceed with.  Are you aware of that?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Nobody else had a right to take him off, except myself, because at the Head Office I was working as a Liaison Officer between the court of law and the Office of the Commissioner.

MR HUGO: Were you Colonel Willy, satisfied that you had enough evidence at your disposal and enough statements to succeed in prosecuting at least Mr Tshabalala and Mr Dandala?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes.  I was satisfied because the docket was from the Attorney General.

MR HUGO: Yes, and you had access to statements that were made by eyewitnesses, is that correct?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes.

MR HUGO: Now Colonel Willy, will you then just explain to this Committee why did you not proceed with the prosecution of at least Mr Dandala and or Mr Tshabalala?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: The order for Gen Gileli to tell me or to ask me to help him in this case, it was a problem to get statements from people who were working at the Security Branch.

MR HUGO: Yes, Colonel Willy, with all due respect, I don't understand that.  You have just said that you had access to statements given to you by eyewitnesses and you were satisfied that you could be in a position to prosecute.  You didn't need statements from the Security Police?
	Why didn't you proceed with the prosecution?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Tshabalala didn't go to court.

MR HUGO: That we understand Colonel, and we know what the reasons are for his absence at court.  Why didn't you proceed against Mr Dandala with the prosecution?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Dandala was able to say that no, it is this person who shot and he could say that he was not at the scene of the shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Willy, I think what Counsel is asking you is the following:  You were satisfied in light of the statement that you had, that you could successfully prosecute both Tshabalala and Dandala, is that right?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes, that is correct.  In all cases, before people can be prosecuted, it is the Attorney General that was supposed to take that decision as to whether one must be prosecuted or not.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that, did the Attorney General in this case, take a decision to charge Tshabalala and Dandala?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Counsel wants to find out from you is, why was the prosecution of these two Officers, not proceeded with?  We understand that Tshabalala did not attend court at some stage, but why was Dandala not prosecuted?  Do you understand the question?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes, I understand it Sir.  It was because the Attorneys or legal representatives of the deceased, were in such a hurry that the Attorney General also wanted to expedite the case, to finish the case in the courts.

CHAIRPERSON: But we know that Mr Dandala was not prosecuted.  Is that right?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: If he was not prosecuted, he did go to the inquest court.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Just some final aspects, in this docket that was furnished to us, there were also two statements - the one from Shosha and the other one from as he has become known to us now, from Braam Morse.  Were you aware of these statements?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes, I got those statements.

MR HUGO: Can you just explain to this Committee, why were they never prosecuted?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: They could not be found to attend court proceedings.

MR HUGO: Have you made any attempts to try and find them and ascertain where they were?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Because these people are working for the Security Branch, and we were certain that they were working there and they knew that they were working, we then depended solely on the Security Branch people.

MR HUGO: Colonel, just a final aspect, did you know more or less all the people that were working at the Security Branch in Umtata at the time?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: No Sir.

MR HUGO: I've got no further question, thank you.

MR HUGO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Knight, do you have any questions to put?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

MR KNIGHT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dilizo, do you have any questions?

MR DILIZO: Do you have any questions?

MR DILIZO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Colonel Willy, it would appear that you experienced some difficulties in getting co-operation from the Security Police concerning this matter, is that so?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Correct Sir.

MR DILIZO: Were you experiencing this difficulties from the Transkei Security Police or not?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: We had no problems with the police of Transkei, even in relation to this case, we thought these people were working for the Security Branch of the Transkei.

MR DILIZO: What I want to get you to be clear about is this difficulty, did you encounter it from the Transkei Security Police only or even the former South African Security Police?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I never had direct contact with the Security Branch of South Africa.

MR DILIZO: Did you ever try to establish what was their difficulty in securing the attendance of Tshabalala and Dandala to appear in court?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: We tried our best, but never got to establish why they could not attend.  We did not know that these people were not from Transkei.

MR DILIZO: Was the docket that was submitted to the Attorney General for his decision, in respect of Tshabalala and Dandala only, or was it also including Shosha and Morse?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I think there was a case relating to a lady, but I could not, I am not certain as to what her name was.