Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

ADV PRIOR: Yes.  If there was not problem at the restaurant, would you have attacked the restaurant?  If there were no black people milling around there, would you have attacked the restaurant?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct, we would have attacked it.

ADV PRIOR: And then would you have left there and attacked the discotech on the same evening?  Was that the plan?

ANDILE SHICEKA: So, two targets were selected but only one was to be attacked, is that what you're saying?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And what was the plan regarding the hand grenades, were they both to be used in attacking the one target, either the restaurant or the discotech?

ANDILE SHICEKA: One target.

ADV PRIOR: Two grenades?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And we heard yesterday from Mr Tanda that these were offensive grenades.

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And was your intention to kill as many people as you possibly could by shooting and/or detonating the grenades?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: I must put to you the question that was raised by the Chairman yesterday regarding - well, Mr Tanda seemed to suggest and the Chairman put it to him, that the reason for not attacking the restaurant and attacking the disco instead seemed to be a decision which smacked at racism.  You weren't prepared to injure anyone other than white people.  Could you comment on that?  Was that part of your motivation in attacking the discotech?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Mr Chairman, APLA is not a racist organisation.  I think you are aware that white were oppressing us, that was the race that was oppressing us.  We didn't attack white people because we hated white people, we don't hate white people.
	Even the documents of the PAC clearly state that those who are accepting a democratic goal in Africa should be recognised as africans.  We didn't attack the Crazy Disco because we are racist.  
Right from the foundation of the organisation we are not a racist organisation.  However, the situation in which we had to live created a conflict between a white person and a black person, it's not that we are racist.

ADV PRIOR: Now in your amnesty application you indicated that one of your aims or
"The political objective that was sought was to liberate AZANIA and that was at paragraph 10(a) and at 11(b) you also indicated to take the war to the white areas and to destroy the state machinery"
Would you say that is a fair reflection of the political objective that you had, which motivated in carrying out this attack?

ANDILE SHICEKA: May you please repeat the question.

ADV PRIOR: I'm referring to your amnesty application where you indicate that the political objective which you sought to achieve was to liberate AZANIA by - the reason or the objective that you gave in attacking the Crazy Beat Disco inter alias was to liberate AZANIA.

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And then at paragraph 11(b), although it wasn't strictly dealing with the objective, you indicated ...[intervention]

ANDILE SHICEKA: Excuse me, may you please repeat your question?

ADV PRIOR: That one of your - the intention was to destroy the state machinery.   Do you understand the question?  I'm putting to you what you said.

ANDILE SHICEKA: I don't understand, please repeat your question.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  In your amnesty application that was completed on behalf - the one that you looked at earlier, there are two statements that you make there, one you say you did this attack or participated in the attack to liberate AZANIA.
	And there's also a statement where you say you wanted to destroy the state machinery, presumably the apartheid machinery of the time.  Do you understand that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I understand.

ADV PRIOR: Did you say that in you ...[intervention]

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And you adhered to that, you accept that that was part of your application?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  The Crazy Beat Discotech, there was reconnaissance and surveillance kept on that or done on that target, is that correct? - before the attack.

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Would you agree with me that for all intense and purposes it was a place where people came and danced to music and drank spirituous liquor or alcohol, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to say that the clientele at the discotech was solely white people or were people of other races, did they also frequent that discotech?  Or don't you know?

ANDILE SHICEKA: It was only used by white people.

ADV PRIOR: How do you know that or why do you say that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: My comrade Tanda did the reconnaissance and I trusted him and believed when said it was frequented by white people or that there were white people in the place, I believed him and that's the reason why we attacked the place.

ADV PRIOR: I ask you this question because the restaurant also seemed to have black people or african people in the vicinity.  Maybe I can ask you the question pertinently, did the restaurant also have a multi-racial clientele?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No.

ADV PRIOR: In other words, did african or black people also eat at that restaurant or don't you know?

ANDILE SHICEKA: They didn't dine there.

ADV PRIOR: Why do you say that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: The reason I'm saying this is because it was chosen as one of the targets.  To qualify as a target it had to be used by white people.

ADV PRIOR: You were there at the restaurant on that evening, did you see people of any other race?  For example, Indian people or Coloured people eating at that restaurant?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I saw people moving up and down, people of different races.

ADV PRIOR: Going into the restaurant and coming out of the restaurant?

ANDILE SHICEKA: They were not getting in or getting out.

ADV PRIOR: Milling around outside, walking up and down?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  And at the discotech, you said there were burglar bars or the burglar doors were closed so you saw no people milling around outside?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We didn't.

ADV PRIOR: And it was dark inside or darkened, the lights were low inside the discotech?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: So you don't know or you did not know on that evening and even now, whether there were any people of any other race, any other racial group in the discotech at the time, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: When you say it was dark, I would say there were lights.  The lights were on, you will be able to see people inside.  It wasn't so dark that you couldn't recognise the people if you know them, people who were inside.  I can't say much but it wasn't that dark that you couldn't see people inside.

ADV PRIOR: I don't want to take it any further than that, it was simply a question which I remember Mr Tanda, his evidence had indicated that the lights, it was fairly dark inside the discotech at the time of the shooting.  He wasn't able to recognise specifically who he was shooting at.
	I'm almost concluding my questioning, sorry did you want to add something to that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I'm trying to say the lights only went off after we started shooting, then the lights were switched off.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  I want to ask you this question, do you accept that for all intents and purposes the people that were inside that discotech at the time when you shot into the discotech, are you able to say whether they were connected in anyway to the state, in other words to the police, to the army, to the security forces, to the administration in anyway, of the apartheid government of the time?  Are you able to say that with any conviction?