Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-26

CHAIRPERSON: This is the continuation of the Amnesty Committee session held in Cape Town.  The Panel consists of myself, Denzil Potgieter, I am assisted by Advocates Bosman and Sigodi.  We will be hearing the amnesty application this morning of Mr Yekwani in respect of the incident concerning Mr Jack.  Now I want the parties to place themselves on record.  I'm going to start with Mr Riley for the applicant, can you just place yourself on record.  Can you just, there's a red button on that microphone.

MR RILEY: My apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you can just rewind.

MR RILEY: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I confirm that I act on behalf of Mr Yekwani in this application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Riley.  And then I think Mr Toyise.  Mr Toyise are you going to participate in the proceedings, are you going to represent your own interests at the hearing?

MR TOYISE: I am only going to participate when the need comes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, have you interpreted that?

INTERPRETER: The answer is "I am going to participate when it is required".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes there might be something wrong with my headset.  I'll use my colleague's one and just see if it works.  Yes, can you just repeat that?

INTERPRETER: Mr Toyise said he is only going to take part when he is required to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you and then you'll be representing your own interests?  You don't have a lawyer in other words, who will be assisting you, you will be handling the matter yourself?

MR TOYISE: There is a gentleman next to me I think he is going to help me.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, Mr Williams?  Alright, Mr Williams perhaps then we should go to you and you can put yourself on record and just confirm who you are representing in these proceedings?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  The name is Peter Williams, I'm acting on behalf of certain implicated and interested parties namely Mr Gladstone Ntamo ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just go a bit slower Mr Williams, I just want to make a note of that.  Just a minute.  Mr Ntamo you say, and who else?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Tony Yengeni.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Bongani Jonas.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLIAMS: As well as the ANC Western Cape.  Mr Chairperson I must say that this particular hearing has certain implications for the ANC and that is why the ANC approached me to represent them herein.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know if Mr Toyise's view has taken you by surprise?

MR WILLIAMS: It has Mr Chairperson.  I haven't consulted with Mr Toyise and Mr Chairperson I'm going to have difficulty in acting on behalf of Mr Toyise given the fact that I haven't consulted with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I don't know whether he's - perhaps I should just clarify it with him but he hasn't in so many words actually said that you were his lawyer, he was just sort of saying that.  Perhaps there's some assistance forthcoming from you, perhaps I should just clarify that with him because at this stage you don't haven't any formal instructions you say in respect of Mr Toyise's matter?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well.  Mr Toyise, have you listened to what Mr Williams told us now?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes I'm listening sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes he says that he isn't really here today to assist you, in fact he hasn't spoken with you about this case and so on and he might have some problems to help you so you understand that, did you follow that?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now what is your position, how are you going to - are you able to look after your own interest or what?

MR WILLIAMS: I do not see any problem on my side as I do not have a legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if there is a difficulty you let us know and we will see what we can do about that but that will then be the position at the moment.  Mr Williams, I think we've got your clients then on record?  And then Advocate Ismail?

MR JAMIE: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, the name is Ismail Jamie, I represent the Jacks family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Jamie, sorry.  And then Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel, leader of evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, I think we've got the appearances.  Yes Mr Riley, is there anything else that you want to put on record or do you want us to administer the oath to your client?

MR RILEY: I have nothing further. You may proceed Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: (sworn states)

MR RILEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Yekwani, where are you originally from?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I was born in Doordricht but I was staying in Whittlesea at ...(indistinct).

MR RILEY: And where did you have your schooling?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: In Whittlesea the name of the school Funda.

MR RILEY: And tell us when did you become involved with the African National Congress?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I joined CACOR in 1985 here in Cape Town.

MR RILEY: Where in Cape Town?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: At KTC.

MR RILEY: And can you tell us how you then - what you did after you in fact joined CACOR?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: After I joined I decided to also join the underground structure so that I could be able to operate there.

MR RILEY: Why did you want to join the underground structure?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: My aim was to try and protect the community because I could see what was happening.  The government in those days was killing the people so I wanted to protect the community.

MR RILEY: And where precisely were you based as part of the underground structure?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: In the Nyanga East area.

MR RILEY: Were you under any person in particular's command at the time?

MR RILEY: Yes at the time I had a commander.

MR RILEY: And who was that?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: It was Dax Takuze.

MR RILEY: And where was he at that time?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: He was also present at KTC where at the same unit.

MR RILEY: Do you recall how many persons were in your unit at that time?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I cannot say for sure when it comes to the number but the unit was also composed of people from Bekweni, it was not only people from my area.

MR RILEY: And apart from Dax was there any other persons of the ANC that you had to report to?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Yes there were other people like Mr Ntamo, he was one of the commanders in the area.

MR RILEY: What role did he play?   Mr Ntamo, what was his role?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: He was a community leader and even in the SDUs we regarded him as the commander.

MR RILEY: Now in the time that you were in the underground structure and in the time that you were part of the SDUs where did you obtain your weaponry from to execute any tasks that you were supposed to execute?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I used to borrow the firearm from Mr Ndamo.

MR RILEY: What firearm was this?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: An R4 rifle.

MR RILEY: Can you just explain to us today precisely what the arrangement was between yourself and Mr Ntamo insofar as that particular weapon was concerned?  What I'm trying to ascertain from you is did you if you borrowed the weapon on a particular occasion did you keep it with you the whole time or did you have to take it back to him or how did it work.

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: Sometimes I would take it back to him but sometimes I would keep the weapon with me if there was something else to be done.

MR RILEY: Did you yourself ever personally own an R4 rifle?

XOLA TEMBINKOSI YEKWANI: I never owned a rifle, any rifle.

MR RILEY: Now you explained to us that you got involved with the SDUs to protect the community and because what was happening in the country at the time.  Was anyone giving any specific instructions as to whatever missions were to be accomplished by your particular unit?