Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Assuming it as a 100% possibility because that was how people were dealt with in the usual way, that used to be kidnapped and refused to co-operate.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

MR JANSEN: Sorry Mr Chairman I am just reminded that there are a set of documents which come from the Harms Commission and the Neethling trial relating to Mr Selbe Mavuso, if I could just HAND THOSE DOCUMENTS up.   In essence Mr Chairman these documents contain the release, the so-called release orders of Mr Mavuso as well as correspondence of his attorney, Ms Priscilla Jana, which shows that he was released I think it was 11 October 1981 and that he has never since been seen.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
248	D J COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: This will be EXHIBIT 8.   I am tempted to congratulate you for having failed in abducting this man.

ANSWER: Yes things went horribly wrong, who is this, the General?

CHAIRPERSON: This is the General.

ANSWER: Ja the drops that were apparently put into his liquor he ditched on the sly and we thought it would just be a question of going in with Lt Koos Van der Lit(?) who was (indistinct), picking up this paralytic man, putting him in the boot of the car and bring him back.   We weren't armed at all, not prepared at all for what we bumped into and I might just explain that Mr Lockwood the source that would have, that was trying to get him drunk and the drops into his drinks, when he came out and told me the drops are not working, I asked him to open his bedroom window so that we can help have a, we can listen for ourselves to the speech of this guy whether he's drunk or not.   He was completely sober and the next moment he just stood up and said I'm going to leave and on his way to the toilet, he had to pass through the room where we were standing in, and just bumped into us and we had to prevent him from switching on that light.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that up to now he is still known as General and you don't know him by name?

ANSWER: No, but the ANC has related his name to me he's into business apparently at the stage whilst I was in exile, he left the organisation and did business in North Africa but he was the main money-man in Swaziland supplying money for all the missions of the cadres coming through from Mozambique on their way to South Africa on missions.   But he's well-known and can be traced.
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	249	D J COETZEE

SISI KHAMPEPE: With regard to Peter Nglamini which is on page 7 of your application, I want to know what political threat was posed by Peter Nglamini to Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: The threat that he would blow the activities on Vlakplaas as he apparently did in his letter writing to the Commissioner of Police complaining about what's going on on the farm.   I've never seen the letter but I, if I remember correctly it was handed in at the Harms Commission so it was a question of exposing the Vlakplaas, the Security Police activities which eventually resulted in the order.

SISI KHAMPEPE: To the senior officers within the Security Branch, he could have exposed that only to the senior officers within the Security Branch.

ANSWER: I think the letter was addressed to the Commissioner of Police, I speak under correction but as I say it is available I think in the Harms Commission.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So in fact you were not fearful of him regarding him having to defect to the ANC?

ANSWER: Well I think that would have been a second option if he, of him - and I'm only speculating - if he did not get a satisfactory answer from the Commissioner of Police or Coetzee, that his complaints were just ignored.   That could have been his second option.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How do you know that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the decision to eliminate him was done purely because he had written this letter, which might expose Vlakplaas.

ANSWER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all there was to it.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: He was really an annoyance because he was
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	250	D J COETZEE
timid and frail, isn't it so Mr Coetzee?

ANSWER: No we did in fact use him and he went out with us on missions, he was just always a little bit late and delayed and sort of came into conflict with his fellow askaris, that happened, but the eventual decision by headquarters was as a result of his complaint to the Commissioner of Police.

JUDGE WILSON: Is there a copy of that letter available?

ANSWER: I'm sure at the Harms Commission it was handed in, I'm fairly sure of that.   It was mentioned in any case.

JUDGE WILSON: What sort of complaints did he make about Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: I did not know Mr Chairman, I can't remember seeing the letter personally, it was just relayed to me by Brigadier Schoon and I was instructed to make a plan with him at the same time as with, that I dealt with Vusi.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman if I could add, just to repeat what I stated the other day, the B Series of documents, in other words the evidentiary documents that were presented to the Harms Commission comprises this series of documents referred to as the B Series.   They have only come into our possession I think it was during the course of December and we haven't had a look at all of them but we will attempt tonight again to have a look at this specific document to see if we could find anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: What I really wanted to know is whether it was a complaint of people behaving improperly at Vlakplaas.

MR JANSEN: I have not had sight of the letter.

ANSWER: I also personally haven't, I don't know what the contents of the letter exactly contained, what exactly was
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	251	D J COETZEE
contained in it.

JUDGE WILSON: So it's possible the complaint was nothing about the political aspect but merely about behaviour and corruption that existed at Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: It is possible but I'm speculating Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen we will not be concerned with all the documents that go to make up the file of the Harms Commission, but when you go through it and if there is this letter you will draw our attention to it?

MR JANSEN: I will Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   It must seem strange to you that because a letter of complaint is written by one of the people employed at Vlakplaas is regarded as sufficient to want to eliminate him?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman in the context of the Security Police set-up and Vlakplaas set-up, no because I mean look at myself when I open my mouth, every attempt possible was made to silence me, while they police did everything to mislead the politicians.   So it is very difficult, as soon as there was some reluctance on the part of some askari that pointed towards a possible revealing of the secrets or exposing the Security Police atrocities at all, a plan was made with him.  He was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who precisely takes the decision of such magnitude?

ANSWER: This specific incident was Brigadier Schoon, in Brigadier Schoon's office in the presence of Captain Vermeulen.   No, no sorry I'm confusing Captain Vermeulen's presence with Mohema, Isaac Ace Mohema which we will still deal with, but by Brigadier Schoon.   Of course Mr Chairman, as a result of the need to know (indistinct) I would not
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	252	D J COETZEE
know how high up, but I can have experience in my time link Brigadier Jan Du Preez, the second in charge under General Johan Coetzee to several incidents, as for instance the bounty money or the reward money that they received in the Mnenge case and in other incidents, an officer or two higher.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was Brigadier Schoon's immediate superior?

ANSWER: Brigadier Jan Du Preez, who was the 2IC and then General Johan Coetzee who was the Chief of the Security Police.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did Brigadier Schoon give you instructions on how you had to carry out the elimination of Seve Nglamini?