Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman if the state considered that and if they did do that they could never win the revolutionary war. I've already described that. Yesterday I said that never ever in the Cabinet or the State Security Council or in the Defence management system I ever saw that any decisions were unlawful. I don't know of any time that these type of considerations were discussed in the State Security Council. Like overthrowing the laws of the country.

MR MCADAM: (...indistinct) I'm just saying that in that situation it would not be possible for the government to further extend it's laws to cover that type of counter reaction because of the international repercussions (...indistinct)?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Well they kept it didn't they? They maintained the state of emergency. I want to take it a bit further. As I've said in this submission. I want to put it like this. the security forces notwithstanding all these onslaughts they created a situation and maintained the situation that negotiations on the political field could continue. There was no victory on the military field but they could create the circumstances for negotiations.

MR MCADAM: (...indistinct) is that of the state adopted terror tactics. They could not put it in laws, put it in minutes because if it might be acceptable inside the country it wouldn't be acceptable outside. Secondly, there is a major difference between detaining people alive without trial than giving the army and the police carte blanche to every time they came across a supporter of an illegal organisation to summary execute that person. If that had happened and the government had passed a law giving the security forces that type of power, the Western countries would have probably joined in supplying the ANC with arms. Not so?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: No Mr Chairman I would have gone further, The government would have been overthrown because the members of the government would have resigned.

MR MCADAM: Now what I'm going to put to you further is if the state had as a secret strategy adopted terrorist tactics that would very logically and easily explained the conduct of honourable soldiers such as General Joubert and General Geldenhuys?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Yes.

MR MCADAM: Mr Chairperson I did promise that I would be as brief as possible. I think what I have done now has covered all the major issues. The research department did come to me with a number of aspects and on those aspects I discovered late yesterday afternoon the General and his legal team did not actually have those documents. I propose, if there's no objection from, that those issues be canvassed by way of written questions at a later stage to the General. I've just been asked by one member of the research team, there's one aspect. And that relates to a 1990 State Security Council minutes and dealing with the closure of the CCB.
 There are two questions that the research department would like. Was the CCB closed down in it's entirety or was it only the one element that had actually caused the problems that were aired in the Harms Commission?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman according to the minutes I saw the Cabinet minutes I reported back quickly. I don't know where I had obtained the information from that it was region six. But the conflict at that stage has already passed after the 2nd February speech and I've said that until the Harms Commission region six would be removed and the others would be reorganised. Later on I gave instruction that the whole CCB had to be closed. That is not something which could be done immediately but it was closed down. That was my instruction.

MR MCADAM: (...indistinct) was correctly informed as to what the right, the correct position was on the closure of the CCB?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Well I don't know whether I reported it to the Cabinet but I made it known to the media. So I accept that the Cabinet would have known that. I can't remember that specifically. This part I wouldn't have even remembered if you did not supply a copy of the Cabinet minutes.

MR MCADAM: Mr Chair I don't have any other questions. Thank you General.

MR LYSTER: Sorry I, we'll ask a few questions. We were joined this morning by another panel member and I apologise for not introducing her. It's Ms Phumla Gobodo Madikizela from the human rights violations committee and she will ask a question.

MS MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson and good afternoon to you General. Do you mind if you speak in English so that we can speak directly to each other? I just have one or two questions.
 It's not about the State Security Council as such but I hope that you can still maintain your commitment to assisting in filling up the gaps. I really need your opinion on something. It's become quite clear to s through a number of hearings we've had here at the Truth Commission statements and submissions made as well that the ANC was an enemy to be fought, eliminated or neutralised in any way. Now when we consider a statement that you made this morning earlier, concerning the conditions in Alexandra. That if you lived there you yourself would be leader of the revolution. Do you think that the notion of enemy is helpful in an attempt to understand what the issues were at the time?