Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: : I thought I heard you say you did not attend the (indistinct) trial?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : It is possible, because Thembiso had a relationship with Zinzi.  It is possible, we did go to see Thembiso at the trial.

UNKNOWN: : And that's your only information.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I did not attend the trial in full.  I just can recall going to Thembiso at the trial.

UNKNOWN: : I want to read to you a brief section from a report in THE STAR, September 6th, 1988, and it's got a photograph of yourself and Miss Zinzi Mandela-(indistinct) and this is what it says.
"This is Winnie Mandela and her daughter Zinzi Mandela outside the Rand Supreme Court where they attended a murder trial yesterday.  Both were listed as State Witnesses, but when the State closed it's case last week, the Court heard it would not be necessary to call them, because of admissions made by the accused."
Can I show you this article  and confirm that you were in fact there or not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Well, as I stated, I could have attended to see Thembiso as you also see here,  if we were supposed to be listed as witnesses, we may have been advised.  I don't recall what happened.  We may have been advised not to attend.

UNKNOWN: : To attend you mean?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Not to attend the trial.  It was supposed to be State witnesses.

UNKNOWN: : Well, if you see the photographs, and you see what they say.  They're photographing you outside the Court, they're saying that you were listed as State witnesses, but would not be called before the admissions made by the accused.  That is what they say.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : We were probably not called at the end of the trial,  and there's nothing sinister about that if I went with my daughter to see her boyfriend.

UNKNOWN: : Let's move on.  Well, we discuss one last issue.  Was this Thembiso Buthelezi, you advised us it was you daughter's boyfriend, who when the attack took place which lead to the murder charges in this matter, drove in your Audi. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela: Thembiso had access to my vehicle.  He used to drive Zinzi around, he used to drive her to University, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I do not see what Human Right was violated, because I gave Thembiso my car to drive my daughter, unless this is meant for public consumption.

UNKNOWN: : It's very strange that you do not see a vehicle which was used in the murder of people, as being something of concern to you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : A matter of concern, because Thembiso drove my car.  He drove my car, because he had access to my car, he was driving around the time, and he didn't have to come and ask for permission every time he needed to use it.

UNKNOWN: Were you not worried that he used it to commit a murder?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I never suspected he would be involved in this.  I could not have predicted actions of guerrillas.

UNKNOWN: : You call that an action of a guerrilla?  What happened there?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Harry.  Harry was.

UNKNOWN: : All right, let's move on.
 We've previously talked to you about the Disciplinary Committee which allegedly was held on your premises.  You denied any knowledge of that.  In view of Mr Gift Nthombeni's evidence that he was witness to some of the methods used by the Disciplinary Committee including the cutting up of people, do you still maintain there was no Disciplinary Committee?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : To my knowledge, there was no Disciplinary Committee.  I also heard in that context that he tried to incriminate my daughter.  The letters ANC was no longer carved by me as had been stated in the media, they were now attributed to Zinzi who honoured those fabrications, which were meant for his gallery(?)

UNKNOWN: : Let's talk about the whole issue of MK.
 You've told us before, and you tell us again now that the MK members, because you house was "like a police station", were not staying at your house.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : That is correct.

UNKNOWN: : Yet they would come regularly?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I did not monitor their movements.  They came in and out to see the boys.  They did not come to see me.

UNKNOWN: : Even though it was a danger to your own operation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Well, if I was aware, I would have taken precautions about MK Soldiers coming there.

UNKNOWN: : Did you know Oupa Seheri?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I knew of Oupa Seheri.

UNKNOWN: : Were you aware he was coming to your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : But I have responded to that question.

UNKNOWN: : You said he was coming to your house?  Why didn't you take precautions regarding him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : When he came.  On that one occasion when he came to me, and that is how Thembiso must have known him. He  came that once to me.

UNKNOWN: : Do you know Sonwabo?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes I do.

UNKNOWN: Was he trained MK Guerrilla?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, he was.

UNKNOWN: Did he come to your house regularly?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : No, he didn't come to my house regularly. He did contact me when it was necessary for him to contact me.

UNKNOWN: : Did he come to your house on occasion?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Not on occasion, but he communicated with me when it was necessary for him to do so.

UNKNOWN: : Did he come to the back of your house that you were aware of?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I certainly (indistinct) heard during these  proceedings that he was coming to the back rooms.

UNKNOWN: : I asked you previously, whether you know Vuyisile, also known as Ntshoshobo.  In your evidence today, I believe you said you knew him as (indistinct). Also known as "V"?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, comrade "V".

UNKNOWN: : Was he a trained MK (indistinct)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes he was.

UNKNOWN: : Was he coming to your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : He did contact me when it was necessary for him to do so.

UNKNOWN: : When you say contact?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I mean visit me openly, and he come publicly to see me, but we had a way of communication.

UNKNOWN: : Would he sneak to your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Not at all.

UNKNOWN: : To your backrooms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Not at all.

UNKNOWN: : You have been given the statement made by Absolom Dumisale (indistinct), who was a secretary of the Football Club, have you not?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: : I'll read you paragraph 5, and if you want to see it, I'll show it to you.
"Between January and April 1987, I was still General Secretary, but I was MK instructions.  My direct commander was (indistinct).  Early in 1987 an incident occurred which lead to a raid at the Mandela house in Orlando West.  During the raid, the Police found a Scorpion machine pistol in the green suitcase in the house of Zinzi Mandela.   Zinzi was arrested,  and subsequently found out later that the weapon was placed there by (indistinct).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I recall the incident.

UNKNOWN: : Well clearly, the Secretary of the Football Club had quite close contact with another trained MK (indistinct).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : That is possible, they didn't have to get permission from me.

UNKNOWN: : Is this (indistinct) the same person that we were talking about here the other day, whether we're talking about the intimidation about witnesses?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I don't understand the question Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: : Do you recall?   We had an issue where we raised the issue about the intimidation of witnesses.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes.

UNKNOWN: : And the name (indistinct) came up?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I recall that yes.

UNKNOWN: : Is this the same (indistinct)?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : That is the same person.

UNKNOWN: : So this is one of the people, in terms of what Absolom says, let a weapon in Zinzi's room.