Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: The accused number one was Monde then I became the first accused after Monde has died.

CHAIRPERSON: This document, this is contained in the judgment, if you look at page 14 where you described as being accused number one, Michael Mofokeng and Nkabinde is number two and Tjitja is number three and in this following judgment, one, two and three you refer to those people, namely you and Nkabinde and Tjitja, nothing to do with Monde.
So now this nurse says, said at the trial that you spoke to her and said "look, phone my home, leave a message there and tell them to take everything out of the house."  Now what Mr Mbandazayo is asking you is, did that happen, did she say that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That is not true because what I had explained about the ...(indistinct) is that if at home we didn't have a phone in 1994.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, I'll go to page 63.  You told the Committee that you did not know where Monde was staying, am I correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said that in a response to a question put by myself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman.  Did you know where Thabang was staying?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Maybe I did not put it through correctly.  The person whom I knew is Kopane.  Then Kopane is the one who introduced me to Monde.  Then I later knew where Monde was staying and then and even where Thabang Tjitja was staying.  He rented a house at Thabang's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not understand my question when I asked you did you know where Monde lived?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I did not understand correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think I was trying to elicit from you when I asked you where he lived, how did you misunderstand that question?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I ask for forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say he rented a place where Thabang stayed, but where was that?  Where about?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: It was at Central.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say Central you mean Johannesburg?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Around Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: Soweto.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it has been answered, I was going to refer to that at page 63 because it appears that Monde was renting, that I was driving that, he has already answered that.  Thank you Mr Chairperson, that's what I wanted to raise.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr van den Berg do you have any questions arising, also arising out of the latest questions put by Mr Mbandazayo?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Just to take it one step further, if you have a reference to page 43 of the bundle of documents, the third line, Mr Mofokeng.  You remember earlier you explained to us about the watch that was found in your possession?  That was on page 42, if you look on page 43?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The third line says
"When the accused was transferred to Bloemfontein, a further watch was found in his possession which was later identified by Lindy Stanton as a watch stolen from her in a robbery on the 18th January."
Did you forget about that watch as well?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I want to explain.  This statement is wrong which is put by Mr van den Berg.  I explained that I had my own watch then Lindy's watch was on the other hand so it was  my watch together with Lindy's watch, not that all those watches we took them from the place.

CHAIRPERSON: He's saying that when you were travelling in those motor vehicles going towards Transkei you had two watches in your possession, your own watch and one of the watches that you got from the Stantons' house, not three?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes there were two.

ADV MOTATA: No, but Mr van den Berg, look at that section closing
	"A chain identified by Heloise Jacobs as being belonging 
to her was found under the bed of accused three in Bloemfontein."

MR VAN DEN BERG: Through you, Mr Chairperson, page 42 deals with - let me just find the reference - there's a reference earlier to a watch which belonged to a Mr Andrew Kirk which was found in the possession of accused number one who is the applicant here and then on page 43 there's then a reference to a further watch found in the presence of accused number one which is the watch belonging to Lindy Stanton.  There are three watches that he had on his person.

ADV MOTATA: I was looking at the wrong page, I beg your pardon.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions arising?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I have no questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mofokeng, that then concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, that's the evidence for the applicants, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, I'm of the view that there's sufficient evidence before you to determine this matter.  I don't intend to call any of the victims or to call either of the police officers to whom reference was made.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No evidence to lead Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you gentlemen in a position to argue?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, just to clarify that I, in such instance where there's a lawyer ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you prefer not to but I always give you the opportunity, you might want to make something that you feel was important.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It's appreciated Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to proceed right now Mr Mbandazayo?

UNKNOWN: Yes Mr Chairperson, I'll start now.  Mr Chairperson, I wouldn't like to bore you with my argument expect to say that as I was asking many times, go and refer back to the evidence, I wanted to canvassss almost every aspect, I wanted to canvass so that this Committee can be in a position to reach a fair decision regarding this matter.
	Mr Chairperson, it's my submission that this Committee has been placed with enough evidence before itself to reach a fair decision without myself adding anything in this matter.  I'm therefore leaving it to the hands of the Committee.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.   Mr van den Berg?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	The criteria for the granting of amnesty is set out in Section 20 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act of 1995.  It seems to me, Mr Chairperson, that the applications themself comply with the requirements.

CHAIRPERSON: The technical - are you referring to Section 21(a) that is the three points, yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The technical requirements, that is correct.  However, Mr Chairperson, I would submit that no political motive has been made out in this matter.
...(inaudible) and two, where they need to show they are a member or supporter of a publicly known political organisation or liberation movement.  Mr Nkabinde was not able to tell this Committee details of crucial figures in the structure of the PAC and the structure of APLA.  He was asked questions by Mr Mpshe to which he gave answers and the answers were wrong.  
	Mr Mofokeng, realising that the trap had been set, said he was merely a supporter of the PAC.  Yet in response to questions by a member of the panel, he could not explain what he had done between 1977 and 1991.  There was no indication of political activity whatsoever.

ADV MOTATA: Mr van den Berg are you aware that the period you're referring to, for instance 1977, that he was a toddler, 12 years old, born 1965?