Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

SENATOR RADUE: That was immediately before we became aware of the actual incident Chairperson.  If you read the fax you will see that at this time the people were on the march,
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they were nearing the barrier or at the barrier, but it was after our return from Bisho with the helicopter that I sent that message off and we were perfectly satisfied at that stage that as far as we were concerned, on the South African side, we had done everything possible to ensure that the march would be handled peacefully.

MR POTGIETER: Should we understand that the shooting incident could have happened because the evidence that was tendered to us tends to indicate that this happened around 13H30 and could it have been that that was only transmitted to you subsequently after it happened?

SENATOR RADUE: That is perfectly possible.  There may have been a delay between the shooting and the official indication in the Embassy that it had taken place.

MR POTGIETER: You were not in radio contact with the South African Police or any ...(intervention)

SENATOR RADUE: No we weren't in radio contact with them.

MR POTGIETER: And then just finally you have made the submission in regard to who should be held responsible for the incident and you have made the submission, we have noted that, but I would just like to understand that, is that submission limited entirely to what happened on the side of the stadium where that little splinter group broke through the gap in the fence and moved towards the Bisho town centre?

SENATOR RADUE: Yes.  I think if one looks at the video which, if one can get a copy of the video for the Commission from the South African Police I think that the position will become very much clearer for you.  As far as I recall it the position was that the marchers broke away from the official designated route, through the gap, over a grassed approach
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to the stadium wall, there is no wall there, there is a grass verge, ran over and into the stadium, a number of them following Mr Kasrils, and it was only when they crossed the field and emerged at the far end through another tunnel in the stadium that the shooting commenced on the Bisho side.  Subsequently, probably through panic and I think one has also to have reference to not only the Goldstone Commission's report but also to the report commissioned by Brigadier Gqozo and he probably will refer to it at some stage of Judge Pickard, who also was commissioned to have an investigation and made certain findings, it seems that once the firing commenced on the Bisho side that the troops in front of the Parliamentary complex panicked and open fire on the innocent crowd that was still on both sides of the boundary.

MR POTGIETER: Ja that is what my question is directed at.  It seems to be common cause, if one looks at the findings of all these commissions, Pickard, Goldstone, the CDF inquiry and testimony that was presented to us that there was absolutely no reason at all to start firing on the southern side of the stadium, that's where the assembly buildings were and so on.  So there doesn't seem to be any justification, I just want to see if we agree on that proposition first.

SENATOR RADUE: I would say that you are probably correct there Chairperson, it doesn't appear to be any reason.

MR POTGIETER: And that your submission should be looked at in the light of what happened on the other side after this group broke through the fence and they were fired at.

SENATOR RADUE: That is so.  My view is that a certain number of the crowd were recklessly led into a situation
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which got out of hand completely.

MR POTGIETER: And also it seems from the facts that were placed before us that as soon as the shooting started on the side where Mr Kasrils broke through with the splinter group, as soon as the firing started these people turned around immediately and they ran back, in fact we were told that that is also depicted on the video that you refer to.  So these people showed no resistance once the shooting started they fled, they turned around and they fled actually.

SENATOR RADUE: I was not an eyewitness so I can't really vouch for that but from what I've learned in the Commission that appears to be correct.  Once the firing started they ran away.

MR POTGIETER: In fact Judge Goldstone found that on that scenario it is very unlikely that any shooting would have been coming from that group because they turned around immediately and they ran away.

SENATOR RADUE: Yes, I can't comment on that Chairperson, I really don't know.

MR POTGIETER: And of course the other point that was made to us was that there was no need to use lethal force immediately in the sense of shooting to kill people, you could have fired some warning shots and the people might have turned around and ran back.

SENATOR RADUE: Chairperson I think that's for your Commission to decide upon.

MR POTGIETER: You wouldn't like to comment on that because you've raised this question of responsibility?

SENATOR RADUE: My argument is that the Peace Committee had clearly stipulated the conditions for the march, the magistrate had laid down in an order of court conditions of
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the march, and they were flagrantly broken at the point of the barrier, and that that is what the effective cause of the entire problem was.

MR POTGIETER: As I have said earlier we can debate this issue for the rest of the day but unfortunately, practically we can't, we've got some victims waiting to come and testify and we've got some of the security force personnel who will be testifying this afternoon, but it remains for me to thank you for coming and sharing your perspective with us.  It is important for the Commission to listen to all of the sides and all of the perspectives in order for us to be able to make an objective finding in the end and to comply with our mandate.  Thank you very much for coming.

MR MEYER: Chairperson from our side again also thank you very much for creating this opportunity, allowing us to interact, and I want to emphasise we have experienced it as an interaction and not only as a way of us trying to assist the Commission but also views, comments, observations that have been raised by members of the Commission here present this morning, we have seriously not only considered but will take back with us because in the end it will also be our duty and that is how we see it to assist the work of the Commission to come to a report that will serve the country and all its people very well in the process.  Thank you very much for this opportunity and we wish you and the Commission very well.

MR POTGIETER: Thanks a lot.  Before Reverend Finca closes perhaps I can just say that we have noted your indication that you are open for us to engage in a process around this and to give us access to whatever else you've got.  We thank you for that.  Reverend Finca?
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