Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

UNKNOWN: After we had put the corpse in the car the police took the corpse with and we  stayed in the mountains because we didn't know where to go.  Then on Sunday morning, the very same week, we went to see Mr Xele's house.  And just as we were trying to collect our belongings to see whether we still had any left, we discovered that there was nothing left except for ashes.  One member of the ANC came to report to us that another group was attacking his house.  I went together with him.  We went to his home to see what damage was being done and when we got there we discovered that the house was in flames and we saw three members of the IFP who were burning the house and we started fighting and shooting at each other.  The IFP members ran away.  They got to Nqobo's house.  These members of the IFP who were running got into Mr Nqobo's house and they were actually shooting at us from inside the house and we shot back;  after quite some time we stopped shooting at each other.
	After I had stopped shooting, proceeding home, two kids came out of Nqobo's house.  I was having the gun in my hand.  I asked them as to where the people who were shooting were and the children did not answer me.  I could see that they
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were in a state of shock.  I had a problem.  I could not go inside because I was scared of the people who shot at us.  Because I did not know whether the people were still there or they had run away.

MR KUBONI: I understand that on this day you had a gun.  Where did you get this gun?

UNKNOWN: Our brothers who were members of the ANC brought the guns.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say "our brothers", do they have any names?

UNKNOWN: It was Mzi Dhlamini.

MR KUBONI: Did he tell you where he got them from?

UNKNOWN: He said he got them from the organisation, but he did not elaborate.  He said he was not allowed to tell us all the details because they were going to be arrested.   I am referring to the ANC organisation.

MR KUBONI: When you attacked the Nqobo Kraal, how many were you?

UNKNOWN: We were six.

ADV DE JAGER: You have been telling us about the two kids.a  Is that not relevant?

MR KUBONI: Pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: He has been telling us about the two children coming out of the house and speaking to him.  Isn't that relevant because you are now speaking to an attack on the house.  I don't know if you can hear me.  He has been telling us about two children coming from the house and he enquired something from them and then you interrupted him and now you are asking him about the attack on Nqobo's house.  Isn't the story about the children relevant?

MR KUBONI: If I understand his testimony, his testimony
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is that there was an exchange of fire and then the people whom they were following, whom they were fighting with were inside the house.  So when the kids got out of the house they wanted to find out from them whether these people were still inside.  So I think the question of the kids really feature that way.  In fact, the reason why I came in at this stage, I wanted him to clarify some of the issues relating the attack before he can go on with his testimony.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Kuboni though, I think the witness was still explaining.  I think his evidence was to the effect that he asked the children the names of the children who were inside the house and who were shooting and he was still going on with that evidence when you interrupted him.  So he has not yet furnished us - because I would imagine that the children must have responded to his enquiry with regard to the names of the people who were in the house.

MR KUBONI: Mr Khanyile, can you then proceed from where I interrupted you.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's be more specific.  He told you about two children who came out of the house.  They were in a state of shock.  He asked them some questions, you then went and asked him where did you get your gun from.  There was a break in sequence.  You should take his story about what happened after he spoke to the kids, what happened next?

MR KUBONI: After you have seen these kids coming out from the house, then what happened?

UNKNOWN: We asked the children who were coming from the house as to where the people who were attacking us are, did they get into the house or run away.  They did not answer me.  I could see that they were in a state of shock, so I could not go into the house because I did not know as to
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what I would come across in the house.  So we left that place without knowing whether there were any dead people inside the house.

JUDGE WILSON: So somebody went into the house, is that what you were saying?

UNKNOWN: No, we never went into the house.  Then from there we left to our place.  We stayed for quite a few moments and then later on police came and they called out a list of names and in this list my name was also there and I did not realise that where we were, there were people who were injured where we attacked, there were people who were injured or who died.  I stayed for three days and the detectives from Greytown came who were investigating that matter of murder and robbery.  That is when I got to know that the Nqobo family members had been shot and I was told that it was three people.  I told them that I have no knowledge thereof because I never went into the house to discover the corpses.  As a result I did not know what had happened inside.

CHAIRPERSON: ... these people when they attacked the Nqobo house?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, there were six.

JUDGE WILSON: And you have confirmed none of them went into the house.

UNKNOWN: Not even one.

CHAIRPERSON: ... position that all six of them took part in the attack on Nqobo's house, or was it just him?

UNKNOWN: The others were standing and they were keeping watch as to whether there weren't any people coming out of the house and I was launching the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: None of your companions fired at the house.  You
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were the only one.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I am the one who shot.  When I was at the police station the detectives from Greytown came and I explained to them that I had no knowledge that people had died and they thought that I was hiding something.  And I proceeded to tell them that we were shooting from the outside and we did not go into the house and after the shooting stopped, only two children came out of the house and I asked these children as to where the people were who were attacking and the children did not answer me.  From there we left without getting into the house to see how much damage had been done.  They asked me about guns and we had hidden the guns, but the police could not get the guns, even after having assaulted me, then we proceeded to the case.  Up till such time the matter was referred to the Supreme Court at Mtunzini.  That's where they accused me of having killed three people and apparently there were people who survived the attack and I was convicted at the Supreme Court in Mtunzini.   I really regret this because the people who got injured were not the ones that we were chasing.  These were innocent victims who were not involved in the whole conflict between the ANC and the IFP and I would like to sincerely apologise to the Nqobo family that I killed the members of the family.

MR KUBONI: Is there anything else that you want this Committee to consider?

UNKNOWN: What I did was not my intention but it was the situation that prevailed, that is the conflict that took place between the respective organisations, that is Inkatha and the ANC.   I did not aim to kill the Nqobo family.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KUBONI
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MS THABETHE	200	MR M H KHANYILE

MS THABETHE: Mr Khanyile, can you again make it clear why you found yourself at the Nqobo Kraal, what was the purpose?