Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: We were driving in a car that we normally used for security purposes at the office, the three of us, myself, comrade Mdlulwa and comrade Zukhuru.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you carrying any firearms with you?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, we were heavily armed.

MR MGIDLANA: Having reached Port St Johns, what did you do?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: On our arrival at Port St Johns, we reported at the ANC office there, and we met the Chairperson there and we were given the directions where the shooting was taking place, which is the school.  We proceeded in that direction and we found a person who guided us to the shooting place.

MR MGIDLANA: Do you know that person's name?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No, I do not know that person's name.

MR MGIDLANA: Is he not amongst the applicants who are here in respect of the incidents that took place at Port St Johns?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No, I haven't seen him.

MR MGIDLANA: Proceed.  You then proceeded to the school?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: On our arrival at the school, as soon as we entered the gate, we heard gunfiring, they were shooting at our car.    There were already chaos and there were adult people because there was Voter Education that was going on.  There were lots of people in the school.  After having been shot at, we alighted the car and we took cover and - we took cover and we positioned ourselves appropriately.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, and what happened?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: The shooting continued and we could see from what direction it came from.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: We divided ourselves and we gave each other the task of evacuating all the adult people who were in the premises and to try and stop all this.

MR MGIDLANA: Was there still this gunfiring?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Sorry?

MR MGIDLANA: Was there still shooting?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, the gunfiring was continuous.  Fortunately for us, there was a comrade who was residing in Port St Johns and they joined us in.

MR MGIDLANA: You say how many were they?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: They were many in number, but the other one who was carrying a firearm, he is the one that we worked with closely.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I think he is present here in the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he, I am not asking if he is present.

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: I do not know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he a fellow applicant?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, he is a fellow applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Who may that be Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: It is Guleni, Fundisele Guleni.

CHAIRPERSON: Guleni, Fundisele Guleni?

INTERPRETER: Could the applicant kindly bring the microphone closer?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: We deployed ourselves and we fired back, and the firing was just going on continuously.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on, what happened next?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Thereafter we heard that there was a soldier that was reported to be dead, and the people were evacuated and...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you return fire?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, we did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MGIDLANA: You said the firing continued for some time (indistinct)

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: The firing continued and we tried to suppress them, but they outnumbered us.   The process of evacuating the people was quite difficult, because we were trying to use backdoors and windows.  There were cars that were being shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the building, the school building, then being attacked?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had proceeded from the gate where you were shot upon, to the school building?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, we managed because the terrain was bushy, so it was easy.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, carry on.

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: At about five o'clock in the afternoon, there were no more policemen and soldiers at that time, and when we realised that it was becoming dark, and the police Commander, he heard that there was shooting, he was coming from Umtata and we told him that he must ask his policemen to stop the shooting, but this continued an hour after I have told him, but we tried to retreat at about five o'clock, when all the people were all evacuated from the school premises and we decided to move away as our mission was accomplished or over.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think the school was being attacked?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: When we enquired as to what is happening because we did not know who was firing at who, but we knew that they were shooting from a Mr Mposelwa's house.  As we were firing, we could not fire back at that house because there were small children that came out of the house, of the age of 5.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that, but why were they attacking the school?  Was it just ordinary criminal reasons or political reasons or what?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: It was for political reasons, because the ANC and the PAC were fighting in St Johns at that time.  It was not the first report that we got.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there ANC people in the - why do you say that the school was being attacked because there was a fight between the members of the ANC and the members of the PAC?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: The Voter Education that was going on at that time, was conducted by the ANC.   Thus, I think that they wanted to disrupt the Voter Education that was going on.  I don't have any other reason that I can give.

CHAIRPERSON: And you went to St Johns to do your duty as a result of an order from your Commander?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You say after an hour, after you reported to the police Captain, the shooting subsided as I understand it?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No sir, what I said is that after having spoken to the Commander at the police station, the firing continued.   Nobody came to try and stop it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to the police station?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Fortunately the police station was just behind us, and we saw the police, they took cover, they were just watching, they did nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: The Station Commander drove, passing by with a van and we stopped him.  He was on his way back from Umtata.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of your co-applicants were involved in that incident?  You have told us about Guleni and Mdlulwa.  Anybody else?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: It is only the three of us, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Only the three of you?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And those other comrades of yours that didn't come too close, do you know who they were?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No, I do not know sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Could there have been one of your co-applicants involved with that lot, who never came too close, but came to assist?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Please repeat your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Could there have been one of the co-accused that came in that group that didn't come too close to you?  Remember you said there at Port St Johns there were many comrades, only one who was armed, came very close, he was Mr Guleni.  I assume the others stayed further back.  Do you know Mr Poyo?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Pato?  Do you know him?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You say in any case, the three of you were in close vicinity of each other during that incident?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, carry on.

MR MGIDLANA: Were there others who could have also participated, but whom you cannot identify?

MFANELO DAN MATSHAYA: Yes, there are.  There were many because there were elderly people and women, there was chaos and there were men who were also helping us out to carry the old people and helping through windows.

MR MGIDLANA: You said that this firing was coming from the direction of Mr Mposelwa, one Mr Mposelwa's house?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that, I cannot hear what you are saying.

MR MGIDLANA: M-p-o-s-e-l-w-a.

CHAIRPERSON: Mp?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, Mposelwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was this person?