Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: As I explained before, before I discussed the matter with Sifiso Malevu I had contacted Papa Ndlovu who was in the MK structures in kwaMashu.

MR LAX: You didn't explain before at all?

CHAIRPERSON: Before we get to that, are you talking about consulting him about assassinating Steyn?  Is that what you are saying now, you did consult an MK man in the structures?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: As I Commander in kwaMashu, I explained the situation at Empangeni to him.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the first time you are telling us about that?  You did not explain it before?  But besides that, what was his role?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: When we returned from MK, no one held a rank.  It was only the ANC that could refer to ranks such that people were only given ranks when they returned to South Africa.  You would perhaps be appointed Commander of an area.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question, or do you just not want to answer it?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I will request you to repeat the question, perhaps I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you or did you not clear the proposed assassination of Steyn with anyone in your MK command structure, which you should have done?  Not necessarily Chris Hani, somebody else maybe?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: We normally met with Papani at training camps, so I explained to him at one of those occasions.  However at the time I did not inform him who was going to accompany me on the mission, I was just requesting firearms from him at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did not get approval from him, you just requested firearms, is that it?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I informed him of the mission and also requested firearms from him.  As a Commander he also did not oppose my mission.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you tell him, that you were going to kill Steyn?  Did you tell him that?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I explained the situation as explained to me by Mayibuya.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell him that you were going to kill Steyn, that is what I am asking?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I told him that I intended killing Steyn.
I was requesting to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do we struggle to get that answer out of you for so long?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Perhaps I did not understand the question clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you didn't, but I fail to understand how you misunderstood a simple question.
	Now, that person that you told about it, you say, where does he fit in the command structure?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: He is presently deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't ask whether he is alive or not, I am asking you what rank was he?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: As I mentioned before, we did not have ranks in exile, but he was a Commander in kwaMashu and we fell under him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you told him that you were going to kill Steyn and you were going to commit this robbery and you asked him for firearms for the mission, I suppose?  Is that correct?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I did not explain the issue of the robbery fully, because I had previously discussed the matter with him.  When I requested the firearm from him, it was for the intention of killing Steyn.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Interpreter, is there any difficulty in communicating with the witness?

INTERPRETER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Because he seems to misunderstand my simple questions?  Anyway - so he provided the firearm for you?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, he did not.

CHAIRPERSON: I just thought you asked him for a firearm and then explained what was going to happen?  What happened, did he refuse to give you a firearm for the operation or what?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: He said there were no firearms available at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.   Now, in your statement you make no mention of this Commander, in fact at paragraph 12 of the statement, you say that you did not have any weapons and Shandu and Malevu were then charged with providing ammunition and firearms?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, we did not have firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: So when did you speak to your Commander, before or after this conversation with Malevu and Shandu?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: That was prior to my discussion with Shandu and Malevu.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something?  If you turn back to page 3 of your application form, there is a section talking about what, where your approval or your orders came from and you don't mention this Papani Ndlovu at all?  He was your Commander?  You do quite the opposite in fact, you say that the approval came from the Mkababa Danganga Branch, affiliates of the ANC?  The approval for the operation did not come from them at all, they didn't even know you were going on this operation, you have told us that already, why did you say that in your form?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I did not inform Papani when I was going to carry out the mission, nor did I inform the people from Mkababa, when and where I was going to carry out the mission. The reason why I did not mention this was because I only requested a firearm from him, and he was also not involved in planning, nor in the carrying out of the operation.

MR LAX: Well, you see, when the Chairperson asks you whether you got permission from anyone higher up in the structures, you then say yes, Papani Ndlovu was the man I discussed it with and he didn't say anything that I shouldn't carry on with it, thereby implying that he gave you permission?  Isn't that so or have I misunderstood you completely?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I did say so.  I told Papani about the mission and he did not disagree with me, and when I asked for a firearm, he said he did not have one available.
	As a Chairperson, and as a person whom I respected, I am certain that if there was a problem or if he had a problem with the mission, he could have advised me otherwise.

MR LAX: But he was the one who should have given you permission to carry on with this whole operation, isn't that so?  He was in charge of your SDU, he was your Commander?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, he was my Commander, however he was more involved in the training of SDU's.  Since this was a separate mission, I did not give him full details of where and when the mission would be carried out.  If for instance the mission was going to be carried out in kwaMashu, I would have given him full details of the mission.

MR LAX: Why didn't you tell him as your Commander, that you were going to carry out a mission in another area, that had nothing to do with your duties in kwaMashu?  Was it because he wouldn't have approved of it in the first place and that is why you didn't tell him where you were going, and the details of the operation?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: What I would like to explain is, in MK if you were a trained person, you had that liberty of engaging in activities that were in line with the organisation's policy.  We could not wait and inform the leadership every time a situation arose.

MR LAX: Robbery was not in line with the policy of the African National Congress?   Killing of policemen were not in line with the policy of the African National Congress at that time?  Isn't that correct?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, that is correct.   However, the entire country was embroiled in a war between the ANC and the IFP and the ANC would issue out policies which were sometimes broken because of the situation that took place on the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: If you acted against the policy of the ANC, surely you cannot call on the authority of the ANC to justify your actions?  Is that not so?  If the ANC said you couldn't do something and you did it, which is unlawful, you then cannot say I did it in the interest of the ANC?