Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-25

MR DILIZO: Can you remember whether the Attorney General had made a specific decision with regard to that particular woman who could be Shosha most probably?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I am not certain because I never saw that person.

MR DILIZO: Do you know whether the Attorney General had specifically declined to prosecute Morse or not?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I do not know.

MR DILIZO: What did you make out of this lack of co-operation from the Transkei Security Police?  Did you have any opinions about that, or impressions?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: It was quite common for us to get a lot of problems when we had to deal with the Security Police of the Transkei.
	I never thought as to what the reason might have been.  I could not establish what the reason could be.

MR DILIZO: With regard to Dandala, you said one of the reasons why he was not prosecuted alone, is because he could say he was not at the scene of the crime, or he could say he did not shoot?  But he had made statements wherein he had admitted the shooting, is it not so?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes, that is correct.  Dandala helped us or he was accessible always we wanted to have contact with him.  We never had problems with him.

MR DILIZO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR DILIZO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Dukada?

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Colonel, when you took over, when you joined to assist Major Gileli, to which branch of the Police Force were you attached?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I was the Head of the CID at the Head Office.

MR DUKADA: In other words, you were being involved in the investigation of a number of cases in your experience, is that correct?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes, I had a lot of experience.

MR DUKADA: And you also knew what the Judges' Rules were all about when you were taking a statement from a suspect?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes, I knew.

MR DUKADA: Let's go back to the statement which the Chairperson showed you at the beginning of your evidence, it says warning statement in terms of supposed to be Judges' Rule.  Do you see that?
	The statement which was showed, in fact it is a warning statement which was signed by Colonel Willy, page 61 of the bundle.  Do you have page 61 of the bundle, Colonel?  Do you see the statement Colonel?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes Sir.

MR DUKADA: Who actually typed, that is completed, that (indistinct) form, as I see it?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I do not know who typed, but the bottom part at the end, it is I who signed that it is I who took the statement.

MR DUKADA: In other words Colonel, somebody else completed that (indistinct) form, all that he had to do was to simply obtain your signature?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes, correct Sir.

MR DUKADA: Did you  make any enquiries as to the veracity of the contents of the warning statement?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I could not establish the facts because I did not see this person.  But what I was certain about was that this statement is a warning statement, that was prepared in preparation that was going to be taken later.  The person's actual statement is the following page in the bundle.

MR DUKADA: In other words, Colonel, is it false that you warned Tshabalala about the Judges' Rules?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Sir, I do not know whether the person who took the statement, warned Tshabalala or not because it is not I who  did that.

MR DUKADA: No please Colonel, listen to my question clearly.  It is false that you personally warned Tshabalala about the Judges' Rules, as it is indicated in this warning statement?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Correct Sir.

MR DUKADA: And you appended your signature well knowing that you had not warned Tshabalala about the Judges' Rules at all?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: That is correct Sir, because the reason why I could appended my signature, it was in order to ensure that this statement was ultimately taken.  As to who it was, I do not know.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Dukada, isn't it that - is it not just that the statement, the warning statement itself, Mr Tshabalala has not signed the first page, to show that he was actually warned, to complete the whole picture?  If at all he had signed this page, then maybe we would pursue that aspect?

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, Ms Commissioner.  Actually what we want to pursue is to just show the Committee that there was a deliberate cover up in this matter.  I don't intend to dwell extensively on this aspect.  Thank you.
	The point I am saying to you Colonel, is that the statement was submitted in this form to the Attorney General for a possible prosecution of Tshabalala, is that correct?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes Sir.  Any person who has made a statement having been accused.

MR DUKADA: That also includes the subsequent statements appearing in the bundle, of Shosha, Morse etc?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Correct Sir.

MR DUKADA: Why did you not indicate at the foot of each statement, warning statement, that you never actually warned any of these suspects?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: In this statement, there is a place that says received by me on that date.

MR DUKADA: Yes, that is not my question to you.  My question is why at the foot of the warning statement, you did not expressly indicate that you never actually warned any of these suspects?

CHAIRPERSON: But surely Mr Dukada, can this point be taken any further because the witness has said that he did not warn Mr Tshabalala?

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I take that point.  Colonel, you are aware the inquest proceedings were subsequently held by the Magistrate at Qala, concerning this incident.  Is that correct?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Yes Sir.

MR DUKADA: And some of the documents which you handed in to the Magistrate were the warning statements which you took, is that correct?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: It could be so Sir.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members, we have amongst documents received from the Evidence Leader, Mr Mapoma, findings by the Magistrate, it is not a complete record of the inquest proceedings, but if will definitely give the Committee some light about what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we should begin by marking these medical reports, the one relating to Dr Duncan, would be marked I, I think it is.  Was that the next Exhibit number?
	The one relating to Dr, well prepared by Dr Uys, will be marked Exhibit J.  The report prepared by Dr Mkhize, will be Exhibit K.
	The inquest finding will be Exhibit L.   Yes, Mr Dukada?

MR DUKADA: If you look at the second page of the inquest findings Colonel, item number from 20 to 23, those are warning statements of suspects, can you see that?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: Number 20?

MR DUKADA: Colonel can I just assist you.  20 is a warning statement of Xoliswa and Shosha, 21, warning statement of Mbuso Enock Tshabalala, 22 warning statement of Qanikaya Dandala, and the last one is Morse.
	I just want to get clarity from you, just at the top o that document, it says the following affidavits produced by the Public Prosecutor were admitted in terms of Section 13(1) of the Act.  Are you aware that affidavits of these suspects were handed to the Magistrate?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: I can only estimate, I don't know whether he was given them.

MR DUKADA: When Colonel Booi gave you, sorry Major Booi gave you unsigned statements, did you query the procedure?

EDMUND THEMBA WILLY: As we were used to working together with them, the statements - they would give us the statements and we would then hand over the statements to wherever they were needed.

MR DUKADA: Yes Colonel, what I am trying to find out from you were assisting investigations and possible prosecution of a suspect in the matter, the question is why did you not query Major Booi when he gave you unsigned statements of people who were not known to you?