Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: : Al right.  Let's move on from there.
 You have heard evidence in this Court from Mr Thabiso Mono.

CHAIRPERSON: : Which Court?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Ja,  here at Court?

UNKNOWN: : Well, you've heard evidence at Court, and at this hearing, from Mr Thabiso Mono  and also from Mr Pelo Mekgwe, a witness who you specifically requested us to find for you wherein their status, that they were taken from the manse, brought to your residence, assaulted both by you and the other people in your presence.  What is your response to those allegations, especially the ones from Mekgwe, who you specifically asked us to bring to this hearing?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Do you really think I would bring Mekgwe here for him to testify against me?  I brought Mekgwe to your attention because I believed he knows the truth, which truth he tried to attempt to state here, because he knew he was never assaulted by me.

UNKNOWN: : So Mekgwe testified that he was in fact assaulted by you, he was talking the truth?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : He was not talking the truth.

UNKNOWN: : We've had a number of witnesses here, in gruesome graphic detail, we've had Jerry Richardson laying out how Stompie Seipei was assaulted, as well as other young men.
 We've also had evidence from, as I mentioned, Thabiso Mono, I've mentioned Mr Mekgwe.  Are you saying John Morgan also mentioned it, Xoliswa Falati also mentioned it, and we also of course know about the allegations in Mr Cebekhulu's book.
So do specifically Mr Mekgwe and Mr Mono, are you maintaining that they are lying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : In that regard, yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: : Were they talking the truth when they said they were kidnapped from the manse against their will?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I do not believe that they were kidnapped.  I still hold that view that according to my information, I was told that they got into the bus voluntarily.

UNKNOWN: : Were you part of the plan to remove them from the manse?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Why on earth would I go and remove boys I did not know, and I haven't the slightest idea that they stayed at the manse?

UNKNOWN: : I want to quote to you from your speech you made in Parliament, and I'm referring to your maiden speech.  This is the same speech where you said you (indistinct) that you failed Stompie Seipei.  I don't know if you want a copy of it?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : No.

UNKNOWN: : Okay.   When your report was made to me that they were youths who were sexually abused, I unhesitatingly fell in with the plans to rescue them and gave them refuge in my house.
 My question is, were you part of the plans to remove them from the manse?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : No, I was not.

UNKNOWN: : So this quote that I read of your maiden speech: "I unhesitatingly fell in with the plans to rescue them and gave them refuge in my house."  Why did you say that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : In that context I must have meant to rescuing them from my house and giving them over to Dr Motlana.

UNKNOWN: : Alright.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Which is what they've asked me to do.

UNKNOWN: : Okay.  We went at (indistinct) through a Press statement that you've made during our Section 29 Inquiry, where in bold capitals you had the phrase "STOMPIE SEIPEI WAS NOT AN INFORMER."

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I still believe that Stompie was not an informer, and cannot believe that a man old enough to be his father would kill a child  because he is alleged to be an informer.  There must be another reason why Richardson killed that child.

UNKNOWN: : Okay.
 You also have testimony from Katiza Cebekhulu that his allegations against Rev. Verryn were false.  You have heard evidence from Thabiso Mono and from Pelo Mekgwe that there were no homosexual relationships with Rev. Verryn.  At the criminal trial, (indistinct) said the same thing.  Do you accept now that none of these boys were in any way involved sexually with Rev. Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : It must be stated quite clearly, yes, that I did not know (indistinct).  I hadn't the slightest idea that he would be accused of such (indistinct) allegations, and would never ever have simply just gone out of my way to smear  Rev Verryn.  I have stated yes, that I have no problem whatsoever with two (indistinct) adults entering into those relationship.  I've got nothing to do with that type of private life.  Information is given to me by Falati that children are being abused.  I didn't even have the slightest idea of  their ages.  (indistinct) the one boy she has brought to me, Katiza.  I do accept the evidence that has been previously presented here that none of that boys were abused by (indistinct).  It wasn't as if I went out of my way to destroy (indistinct).  Why would I do that?

UNKNOWN: I just have one follow-up question to that.
Your interview with a person in February 1989, with NBC News, this after Stompie's body was found but not identified, this was after the other three youths, the first youth,  (Indistinct) said he escaped, the other two youths  were released into the custody of the Methodist Church, and after they had gone public at a meeting in Soweto saying those allegations were false.  This is an interview given by you on the 1st of February, 1989.  I'll read from the question.  
"NBC:  Why didn't people like Desmond Tutu then take ...(indistinct) at you through the Football Team saying it should  be banned?
Mrs Mandela:  I'm quite surprised at him, because  he's well aware of the situation back home, I understand he made that statement overseas.  Surely Desmond Tutu knows that I have no bodyguards, I do not need to be protected from my people.  Such reference to those youths was ..... over from the (indistinct) and can only be mischievous.  That tragic situation that has arisen is the question of Rev. Paul Verryn.  This Rev. Paul Verryn unfortunately, I thought had a medical problem that needed to be addressed by responsible leaders.
 The report was brought to my attention, not when this youth got into this house, about October of last year, when I came about this problem Paul Verryn had with the children who were in his care.
 Paul Verryn has a very serious psychological problem.  I do not understand why a man of his calibre and a Christian would continue sodomising black children.  
 There is clear evidence here that Rev. Paul Verryn has ...(inaudible) the victims to a medical problem which he should have addressed quietly with his doctors."
 Now this was at a stage when youth who had been abducted already publicly stated that they were not in any way involved in any sexual activity, yet you repeated this statement.  Could you advise us why?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : On my departure, Mr Chairman, that information had not been tested.  That was my firm belief.   They gained the information from the (indistinct) and I had no reason whatsoever to not believe her at that stage.

UNKNOWN: : You were willing to repeat this statement on national television in America when you have the actual alleged victims denying it happened based on allegations brought to you by Mrs Falati?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I repeat, that that information on my side has not been tested.  I have that view that children who went to seek refuge at the manse, were abused.  That was the belief I had.

UNKNOWN: : Let us move on to - you have told us that you denied taking part in any assault on the youngsters.  That you do not know why the people made allegations, are lying.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, I have stated that.

UNKNOWN: : That you did not assault any of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I didn't.

UNKNOWN: : You took Katiza Cebekhulu to Dr Asvat.
Now the medical record,. I don't know whether you're aware of it.  We've showed it to you previously, and I can show you another copy now.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Is that the card?