Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What I want to know, were they also humiliated like, were they also called Big Rats and all that?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: No, those were not referred to them.    They were referred to us because this was focused on this misappropriation of money.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  You have said that they were sent to Gqozo, to do what?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: They were sent to Gqozo because he was needed, they wanted to see him in the hall, so they came back, saying that they could not find him, they gave out that report.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you know why he was required to attend the meeting, that is Mr Gqozo?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: No, I don't know.  That is why I am saying we were confused, we didn't know what to do.  I was only thinking about the cell that I was threatened about before.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have testified that the offices of the Commissioner were rounded up by the Police?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Does it happen that if a senior Policeman, especially in the position of a Commissioner, if he is going to be arrested, does it happen that you get many Policemen who attend to that?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Sir, as I was not involved in arresting people, but according to my knowledge that I have, that doesn't happen because there was supposed to be a senior Officer who was at the same level with him, so that he can lead those people.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have already described how the meeting was, can you then sum up and say it was an orderly meeting or it was more of a hooligan style meeting?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: It was just a hooligan meeting style.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Lastly, you have said that it was, slogans were being chanted there amongst others "down with yourself".  Were you a politician or why did they say down with you?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I think that because they said that I have misused money, I think they put it that way because that was what was being discussed.  That is why I am saying what happened there was not orderly.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Thank you Mr Makwethu, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I am now calling Mr Sims.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you state your full names for the record please?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Raymond Pieter Sims.

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sims, during the month of March 1994, were you a Policeman?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Where were you stationed?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, I was seconded to the then Ciskei Police attached to the Riot Unit.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, I've got just a slight problem here, I am sure how the interpretation goes that side, like the waiting time and all that.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps the Interpreters must just indicate if the speed is such that you can't keep up with the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: No, there is no problem so far, everything is just fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you very much.  I think we are okay, perhaps you can just bear that in mind when you lead the witness.  You may proceed.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sims, on the 22nd - oh, sorry, just before that, what was your rank, Mr Sims?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I was a Lieutenant Colonel, Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, Mr Sims, on the 22nd of March 1994, where were you?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: We were at the Bisho Police College, the Riot Unit premises are located in the College premises.  We were busy in one of the offices there, checking premises for a joint operation centre, for the elections on the 27th of April.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, can you tell the Commission what happened on that day?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Certainly.  Mr Chairman, myself, Colonel Oosthuizen and Colonel Bonguza, we were busy checking the office or the dining or the lounge next to the Officers' MES for a joint operational centre to be rigged up there for the elections on the 27th of April.  Colonel Oosthuizen left, I went back to my office and about half past eleven, I also got into the Police vehicle and drove to the main gate.  On my arrival at the main gate, it was closed.  A casspir, armoured vehicle was parked across the road on the outside of the gate.  I was told by a then Ciskei Police member, who was armed with an R4 or R5 rifle, that I am not allowed to leave the premises.  I was then informed that I must go back to my offices.  I then turned back and went to the Administration building of the Police College where I saw Colonel Bonguza and Colonel Oosthuizen's vehicle was also parked.  On my arrival there, I went to Colonel Bonguza's office where I found him and Colonel Oosthuizen and another Officer whom I cannot remember, where they also informed me that we were not allowed to leave and that the Police members, the then Ciskei Police members were unsatisfied and were waiting for Commissioner Nqoya, Gen Nqoya, to return, that he had a meeting with them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Sorry, you were saying that you were told that the Police were not satisfied.  What is it that they were not satisfied about?