Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

GAUTENG: 82
very difficult to believe the - that they'd lie.  We often used to talk or you hear about people saying that as 
long as you make the lie big enough, you can in fact fool all of the people all of the time.

COMMENTARY: While the men at Vlakplaas continued to lie to the Harms Commission, De Kock and 
his Squad attacked a house in Botswana.  They shot and killed a PAC activist, his wife and two children.
	De Kock and his superiors would stop at nothing to hide
their crimes even if it meant another murder.  This is the grave of Constable Brian Ngqulunga.  For nine 
years, one of the unit's most trusted members.

MAMASELA: (?) 	Brian, the whole thing shook him to the marrow, it disturbed him.  He was a completely 
devastated person, he was a pathetic sight.  You know he was frail, he drank too much.  The whole 
exposure into the media went into his mind.  He couldn't take it.  He was on the verge of complete 
breakdown.	And as a result he shot his wife three times, his pregnant wife.  Fortunately the poor 
woman did not die.

COMMENT: Eugene never boasted or he never talked about that, but yes, I knew and he would mention 
that he had to eliminate someone because of the fact that the person was posing a threat, and threatened to 
go and talk about certain things.

MAMASELA: There was a meeting at General Engelbrecht's office.  Nick van Rensburg was also there, 
De Kock was there, a lot of guys was there and it was - concern was raised about Brian Ngqulunga's 
behaviour and his drinking problem and that he is becoming progressively agitated and nervous and they 
were afraid that this condition will 
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jeopardise the police case in the Harms Commission and De Kock suggested that Brian should be killed, he 
should be eliminated.

COMMENTARY: On the 20th of July 1990 Brian Ngqulunga was shot dead in the township of 
Soshanguve near Pretoria.  His grave is on a hill overlooking Vlakplaas.  He was given an official police 
funeral.  
	Nine months after his appointment, Mr Justice Louis Harms released his findings.
	There were no police Death Squads, he said.  Dirk Coetzee, had lied.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, can I just make a request.  
Seeing that we are watching something on Brian Ngqulunga and
the wife and the relatives are here, that it be re-shown and they be allowed to come and sit at a place where 
they can see that for themselves.  It is a request.

HASSAN MALL: When you say they are here, do you mean they are in this hall?

UNKNOWN: They are in this hall, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Then, should they not be able to see it now whilst it is being shown to us?

UNKNOWN: That is the request I am making that they be allowed to come forward and see it.

HASSAN MALL: Oh, I thought you said they should be screened to them on another occasion.  Certainly.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, while we are on this point, Captain Mentz will testify 
about this specific incident and especially relating to the orders that they were given in respect of Brian 
Ngqulunga.  I am showing this video now before Captain Mentz' evidence.
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	I just want to indicate to you at this stage that the 
evidence of Captain Mentz will be that he and the others that were instructed to eliminate Brian Ngqulunga 
were never informed of the reason that is now alleged by Mr Mamasela to have been the reason for the 
elimination.  I am just making that point.

HASSAN MALL: Noted.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, and Mr Chairman furthermore I want to point out to you that Mamasela 
was not involved in that operation at all.  So the evidence that is shown on the video will, to a certain 
extent, be contradicted by the evidence of Captain Mentz.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I am just making hundred percent sure that I've covered 
everything.  
	Mr Chairman I would like with your permission, in respect of this video before we show the other 
video, to call Brigadier Cronje very shortly just to give his comments on one or two of the aspects.I want to 
make one other point.
	After having, well showing the excerpt of Brian Ngqulunga, I realised that the excerpt itself and 
what was said in the excerpt is obviously detrimental and perhaps prejudicial to Captain Mentz' application.  
We, however, decided that because of the fact that we are speaking the truth from Captain Mentz' point of 
view and what happened to him, that it would be in our interest to show this excerpt in respect of Brian 
Ngqulunga even if what was said there, might and I am not saying that it does, but might contradict what 
Captain Mentz' evidence is.
	I want to make that point very clear Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: You will obviously tell us who compiled that 
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particular video, would you not?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, we will be able to give you the 
information Mr Chairman, yes.

HASSAN MALL: The Committee will take a short adjournment at this stage.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS.
COMMITTEE RESUMES.

HASSAN MALL: In fairness to counsel I think it should be told that a member of the Committee felt that 
as a result of what we had seen, a certain question may be cleared up amongst ourselves and it was in order 
to discuss that point,
that this short adjournment was taken and I am hoping it hasn't inconvenienced anybody.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, may I allowed to call Brigadier 
Cronje very shortly for five minutes?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, certainly.

UNKNOWN: (s.u.o)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, you have now seen the video.  Parts of the 
Rhodesian war and the Namibian Bush war.  Do you confirm that you were also involved in a similar 
manner?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, you also heard what Craig Williamson said in the video with 
regards to the fact that the Security Branch was the military wing of the National Party.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you agree with that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.
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ADV DU PLESSIS: You've also heard the ex-President Botha specifically speaking about the fact 
that ANC activists, I think he said ANC activists and terrorists, would be eliminated?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you hear that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier could you just give the Committee an indication of how you 
regarded that in the light of Brigadier Victor's instruction?

UNKNOWN: Brigadier Victor probably received his instruction from higher up and I thus believed 
that his
instructions came from higher up and that these were the correct instructions.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And Brigadier, do you regard it in the light of what has been said in the video by 
President Botha that there was a possibility that the instruction came from him?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I saw it as such.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, you also saw what was said with regard to the Zero hand grenade 
incident, was there anything you would like to dispute with regards to that?

UNKNOWN: I would like to differ in the sense that De Kock was not in charge of the Operation, I was 
in charge of the Operation.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Very well. Brigadier it appears as though the producers of the video, either out 
of ignorance or for convenience sake, the period which you were in charge of Vlakplaas or otherwise 
omitted to include that in the video would you care to give any explanation to that effect?

UNKNOWN: I cannot give any explanation.  I would like to say to the Committee that I took over 
from Coetzee and 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 86