Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-16

MR VERSTER: I did say that, yes.  That specific point is what I thought about, Chairperson, when I mentioned it earlier that I signed the document.  The approval I never denied that I used my name there and said Jack van Staden I authorised this.  But that authorisation could not be an instant authorisation, as I have said earlier, because it had to take place over a period of time.  In other words the yearly and quarterly authorisation of the monitoring and the development of the project was a written standing working procedure.  And the dispute emanated when the bomb exploded all the Generals started thinking in blocks, he only recalled what threatened his life and he was not prepared to say in any other manner that "I accept that this was a project of the CCB, I accept the maximal disruption and I accept that there may have been some misunderstanding."
	And I put it to you, the only General in the South African Army that said this straight out to a Judge was Gen Joop Joubert, and I feel that on that basis I later also - because I realised what the implication of my subordinates was, I said that they may have done it.  Whether I did this differently in the Harms Commission or whatever I did, there was a stage where Gen Badenhorst assaulted me, where he jumped up and tried to slap me because I did not want to cooperate with him.  
	It was a totally chaotic situation where I maintained myself in and whatever I said in the Harms Commission was for survival because I did not want to cooperate with the lies of the previous government.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels, do you have any re-examination?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I want to put a number of questions that have arisen as a result of this.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that document wasn't before ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: I will not be long, I don't want to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps Mr Bizos, seeing that this document has just come, if I can just take the normal line and ask whether other people want to put questions.
	Mr Martini, just on this latest ...(intervention)

MR MARTINI: No questions, Mr Commissioner.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: P du Plessis?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I haven't got anything arising out of this document, but you did indicate that you were going to give us the opportunity to put questions arising from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That we'll give to you, we're just dealing with this document which wasn't available, so that it can be covered by re-examination, then as I said I'll give an opportunity for questions arising from questions that were put by the Panel.  Mr Coetzee?

MR COETZEE: I've got no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Eck?

MR VAN ECK: I've got no questions from this document, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Verster, at the beginning of the proceedings yesterday you protested at some length that you were falsely accused of having lied to the Harms Commission, you recall that?

MR VERSTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: This was - this protest of the false accusation against you, was before Exhibit G was available to all of us.

MR VERSTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've had an opportunity of reading this document overnight.

MR VERSTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree that your accusation that the suggestion that you lied to the Harms Commission was false and part of a conspiracy to besmirch your good name, was false?

MR VERSTER: Chairperson, no I do not agree because the only thing that happened here is that new facts were placed in front of me, it happened over eleven years and there are some of the aspects where I ask for privilege and the only grey area that exists with me at this point is at which stage, where was the transition stage where we got better control of the circumstances.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yesterday you said that the allegation that you lied to the Harms Commission was false and it was a conspiracy by people to defame you on the SABC and everywhere else and you did not tell any lies to the Commission, do you recall that?

MR VERSTER: I did concentrate on the privilege ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you recall saying that?

MR VERSTER: I remember that I said that ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it false?

MR VERSTER: ... everyone changed ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it false when you said it, Sir?

MR VERSTER: You don't have to shout at me, Mr Bizos, I've already admitted.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it false?

MR VERSTER: It was not false.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Bizos is asking you is - let me put it this way, we've got the evidence of the Harms Commission, your evidence in which you say certain things, which you in your explanation given today explain why you didn't tell the truth there, you've admitted that this isn't the correct reflection and it's not the same as what you've said.  What Mr Bizos is putting to you is that yesterday you said that the accusations that what you said and which is contained in here are lies, is false.  Now are you saying that they're not false?  In other words, if you answer in the negative to Mr Bizos' question, then the necessary inference is that what is contained in here is the truth.

MR VERSTER: I understand that very clearly, Chairperson, but what I want to point out to you is that in my conscience it was about privilege and yesterday morning, and I think my legal representative also admitted to this, and yesterday I was under the impression and I will still say that I was under the impression that where I had asked for privilege for these aspects was in the Harms Commission, until after eleven years I once again saw these documents.  In other words - and last night I saw that there was a part in which I did speak about privilege and another part where I did not speak about it and I would admit that what I said yesterday morning as a result of a lack of facts in front of me, I wrongfully, with no intention not to speak the truth, but I have no problem and I do understand that I can apply for amnesty on my own as I understand the Act, and that I could be granted amnesty in terms of the stipulations in the Act.  So I have no reason to speak anything other than the truth now.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

GEORGE BIZOS: Not only did you say yesterday that you did not lie to the Commission, but in admitting that you did lie today, you're trying to make some profit out of your untruthfulness and I'm going to read certain passages from this document to you, in order to show that your lies were really self-serving lies and not for the benefit of the country or because of any dispute with the Generals or any pressure that was put on you.  Listen to what I have to say and please tell me whether it's correct or not.
	Now you've read this document, is there anything recorded in this document which you did not say?  Do you accept the correctness of this document - as a record?

MR VERSTER: I accept it as a record.

GEORGE BIZOS: Alright.  Now let's turn to page 1561, question 36 - do you see that 1561?
"Did the CCB monitor the following people?"
And you say -
"Frank Chikane, Bruce White, Gavin Evans, Dullah Omar, J Naidoo, Boetie van der Merwe, Daniel ...(indistinct) Karero, Gen-Maj Basie Smit."
And your answer -
"The persons number 2, 3, 4 and 7 were monitored."
And we know that 3 is Gavin Evans and 4 is Dullah Omar, there was no confusion in your mind.  And was that evidence given clearly and correctly as the truth at that time?

MR VERSTER: That is correct, at that stage I thought so.