Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-02

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Mr Sapele, would I be correct to state that the purpose, or the reason for escaping was to gain your freedom?

MR SAPELE: The main reason was for me to go to Zimbabwe together with Borowsky.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And the money that you took during the robbery that was not used for PAC purposes but for personal use, am I correct?

MR SAPELE: No, that is not correct, because Boris had actually said that we were going to use the money to travel to Zimbabwe in order to fulfil further aims of the PAC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja, the point I'm trying to make is that the money was for personal use, for travelling purposes, am I right?

MR SAPELE: That is correct, we were going to use it to travel.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now when you say you were recruited in jail and became a member, what do you mean by saying you were a member?

MR SAPELE: Could you please repeat the question?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What do you mean when you say you were a member of PAC?

MR SAPELE: I was recruited by Borowsky to be a member of the PAC because I was already a supporter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Had Borowsky informed you about what PAC is all about, just general information about the organisation you wanted to be a member of?

MR SAPELE: No, he never did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But you had agreed to become a member?

MR SAPELE: Yes, I did because Borowsky recruited me to join and I was already a supporter of the PAC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How do you join an organisation you don't understand, you don't know what it is about?

MR SAPELE: He was still going to brief me about the organisation but at some stage I was transferred from 1 Prison, that was where I was to another one.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  If I'm not right you must say so, will I be correct to say that the full briefing about PAC as a structure and what it is all about was going to be done after your escape, your successful escape, will I be correct?

MR SAPELE: I was travelling with him because I did not know the place, I did not know Zimbabwe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, no, I'm not talking about Zimbabwe, I'm saying the full briefing, information to you about PAC, what it is about and everything about PAC was going to be done Masilela to you after the escape because in jail you did not do that.

MR SAPELE: Yes, he was still going to brief me because I had spent time with him and I was still going to spend time with him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And that was going to be after the escape?

MR SAPELE: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  Now at the time of committing this offence, the robbery inside jail, you were not yet informed about PAC at all?

MR SAPELE: I did not know their policies at that stage.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be all, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, one, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Sapele, when you met Borowsky Masilela in prison as you have already told that he recruited you to PAC, what did he say to you?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, but this is going to be new evidence and not re-examination, and this would be a direct follow-up on my questions to the applicant, unless the Chair and the Committee allows that type of a question.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it arise out of the questions put by Mr Mpshe?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, not necessarily directly Mr Chairperson, but indirectly because he was asked about his, about the PAC, how did he escape in prison, was he told before he escaped ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'll allow it, Mr Mbandazayo, seeing that we are not busy conducting a trial at the moment.  There is a little bit more flexibility than usual.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But I'll give, if necessary, Mr Mpshe another bite at the cherry if he wants on this point.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Mr Sapele, what did he tell you when he was recruiting you?

MR SAPELE: He told me that PAC was a liberation movement and I should join so that we can be liberation fighters and fight the oppression as a black nation, the oppression of the black nation by the then white regime.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And nothing more did he tell you about PAC?

MR SAPELE: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all, Mr Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, do you have anything?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I won't enjoy the cherry, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Sapele, at what time was it more or less that you escaped from prison?

MR SAPELE: It was on the 21st of March, 1 o'clock midday, it was on a Sunday.

ADV BOSMAN: When did Mr or Borowsky, when did he recruit you, on what date more or less?

MR SAPELE: He recruited me during January 1990.

ADV BOSMAN: And these other people who escaped with you, where were they going to go, do you know?

MR SAPELE: They were also members of the PAC.

ADV BOSMAN: No, but my question is, where were they going to go?

MR SAPELE: I wouldn't know that because I was going to go with another group, that is Borowsky and the other group but Borowsky and myself were arrested.

ADV BOSMAN: How long had you been outside before you were captured?

MR SAPELE: It could have been four hours.

ADV BOSMAN: And you'd kept the money with you personally all the time?

MR SAPELE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Why didn't you give it to Borowsky, he was the commander?

MR SAPELE: Borowsky?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes.

MR SAPELE: I was also with him and he also had some cash in his possession.

ADV BOSMAN: Tell me, what sentence are you serving at the moment for this robbery?

MR SAPELE: I got 15 years for the armed robbery.

ADV BOSMAN: In your form you state that you are asking for amnesty for armed robbery, did you have a firearm with you?

MR SAPELE: Yes, we had a knife as well as a gun.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you get the gun from?

MR SAPELE: A certain policeman gave us the gun.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he give it to you voluntarily or did you ask him for it or how did it come about?

MR SAPELE: We spoke to him and he actually slipped the gun inside the cell.

ADV BOSMAN: Who was this policeman?

MR SAPELE: Matibela.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Advocate Motata, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, about two.
	Mr Sapele, at reception when the 19 of you got there, who had the gun and who had the knife, because we learn that you were 19?

MR SAPELE: I had the knife, Banani had the gun.

ADV MOTATA: I see on your application form, that would be the paginated papers, page 45, you look at 7(a) you say, the question is
"If you were an officer or political liberation movement .."
Do you see that kind of sentence there?  You say:
"Pan Africanist Congress (a cadre, a supporter)."
Do you see that?

MR SAPELE: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: I just want clarity there.  Whilst you were in prison you were not a trained APLA member, wouldn't I be correct in assuming that?

MR SAPELE: Yes, I had not yet been trained, I was not a trained cadre.

ADV MOTATA: You were still going to be trained had you succeeded getting to Zimbabwe?

MR SAPELE: That is correct.

ADV MOTATA: How did you know that there was money in reception?

MR SAPELE: We usually see it when we pass the reception.

ADV MOTATA: So the understanding was that not only escaping, you had to take the money as well?  You didn't want to just escape and probably find your way to Zimbabwe but you wanted the money as well?

MR SAPELE: Boris Masilela said we should also take the money.

ADV MOTATA: How much was it?

MR SAPELE: They retrieved a thousand rand and a few rands, a few hundred rand from me.

ADV MOTATA: How many people were at the reception when you committed this armed robbery?

MR SAPELE: We were 26.