Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, I see it.

MR VALLY: Were you responsible for producing the botulism?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, we did produce that.

MR VALLY: Did you put it in the beer tin?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: Do you know how it got there?

MIKE ODENDAL: I got - it was also one of the, I would say, requests I had from the Defence Force to produce Botsilium type A toxin, which I produced in a 5ml glass freeze-dried vile and this I prepared a number of these glass vials and I handed it over to Dr Andre Immelman.  What happened after that to the toxin I wasn't informed.  The know ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Need to know.

MIKE ODENDAL: The must know system also applied to me.

MR VALLY: Did Dr Immelman never discuss these issues with you that he was using it to put into a tin of beer?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, this was one of the things that came to light, and I also did some tests on liquor, beer, whisky, milk, water.

MR VALLY: Well, let's go out firstly with botulism.  What effect does it have on a human person.

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, it causes paralysis because it inhibits the transmittance of your nerve impulse in your muscles, so eventually you would die of asphyxia.

MR VALLY: And how long does it take to work?

MIKE ODENDAL: That's difficult to say.  In humans we don't know, I don't think those figures are available at all.  On the - the only figures we have is figures which - studies we've done on mice, because mice is the most popular experimental laboratory animal which is commonly used not only to type these Botsilium toxins into the different types because there are basically eight, let's say seven different types of Botsilium.

MR VALLY: Potentially it could kill?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And you tested these on primates such as baboons?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, we didn't test it in primates, we only used mice as an experimental ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Only mice?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did you test - you said you tested it's ability to be mixed with alcohol and it's effectiveness thereafter?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Why do you think you were doing that?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, the reason once again that was offered to me was, it could land in one of our own people's drinks and that's to test the quality of the drink, of the drink, or of the liquid.

MR VALLY: Did you seriously believe that?

MIKE ODENDAL: Not really, because I know it's one of their most common or popular biological weapons as well, it could also be used offensively.

MR VALLY: Tell me about Salmonella.  Did you do tests on mixing sugar and Salmonella together?

MIKE ODENDAL: No we didn't do any tests.  We just provided the Salmonella and if you mix it with anything, tea or sugar, you know, you hope it will work, if it would work.

MR VALLY: You did tests on mixing this item with various ...(intervention)

MIKE ODENDAL: No, we did no tests on Salmonella.

MR VALLY: Which - and botulism, did you do such tests on botulism?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, we did.

MR VALLY: What did you mix it with?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, we mixed it with milk, with water, with whisky, with beer, all types of liquid that could possibly aid the ingestion of the toxin.

MR VALLY: I want to talk about the Cholera.  Do you see on the 4th of August 1989, the first item on the second page of TRC 52?  Do you see that item?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, I see it.

MR VALLY: Can you describe the effect of Cholera on the human being?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, it causes quite a severe diarrhoea, quite a severe dehydration and that's basically the most important effect.

MR VALLY: And who are the most vulnerable people regarding Cholera?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, humans.

MR VALLY: And will - amongst humans, are children not the most vulnerable, and older people?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, they are.

MR VALLY: So Cholera would be most effective in killing children and older people?

MIKE ODENDAL: I assume so, yes, because that's what the literature says.

MR VALLY: And you're talking about sixteen bottles, how much cholera are we talking?

MIKE ODENDAL: Once again, if I remember correctly, they were small bottles, 30ml McCarthy vials and you put in at least 10ml, so that would mean, it would be quite a lot.

MR VALLY: What would you ...(indistinct) if you had to use it for offensive purposes?  You see on that same page, about three quarter way down, there's 10 bottles and the top of the page was 16 bottles, so that's 26 bottles altogether.  Firstly, were you the person who put this cholera together, who isolated it, or cultured it?

MIKE ODENDAL: I prepared the cultures, yes.

MR VALLY: You prepared them?  You produced 26 bottles of cholera of 30ml a bottle, I believe you said.

MIKE ODENDAL: No, 10ml.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, 10ml a bottle, which gives you 260ml of cholera.  What damage - I'm sorry, I'm told there's another 6ml also involved.  I assume that you produced that as well?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: So we've got 26 plus 6, is 32 bottles which gives you 220ml of cholera.  Can you give us an indication of whether this could cause a serious epidemic?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, I assume that it could cause an epidemic, yes.

MR VALLY: I used the words "serious epidemic".

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Were you aware that you were producing a substance which could potentially cause a serious epidemic?

MIKE ODENDAL: I wouldn't - when I got the request to produce these organisms, you must remember that the idea stuck in my mind, that in the first case it was to be used for testing purposes, and in the second one, you know, there were hints that this could be used in the war situation in Angola, and it never crossed my mind for one moment that it could be used internally in our own country, because to use organisms or to spread organisms in your own country is a very risky thing, and it's not the - it doesn't go along with the convention of biological warfare that you do not produce these things to use on your own territory.

MR VALLY: You felt it was acceptable to use cholera as a weapon in Angola?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, to my - with the information that was available to me, that these guys were using it on us, so why don't we use it on them.

MR VALLY: And who told you this?

MIKE ODENDAL: This was information that was probably passed to me by Dr Immelman.

MR VALLY: So Dr Immelman indicated to you that it was acceptable to visit a cholera epidemic on possibly Angolans?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Who else was involved in this project?  I'm talking specifically about production of cholera and for the purposes you produced it?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, there was a specific technician, I only had one technician that was allocated to these projects which produced all these organisms in large quantities.

MR VALLY: Was there any advisor or consultant to this project?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: Anthrax, what effect does Anthrax have on a person?

MIKE ODENDAL: Anthrax cause three different clinical symptoms in humans.  The one is, when you inhale it, it is extremely dangerous.  That is the most dangerous form of Anthrax.

MR VALLY: What happens to the person?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, you go into shock, into septic shock and you can die within a very short period.  The other one is when you ingest it orally.  In most cases nothing will happen, but if you happen to have an ulcer of some sorts, and the organism is absorbed into the bloodstream, that person will probably also die because their death is very acute.  And then the third form is aquataneous form which was referred to in the earlier days as Wilsorter's disease, and that causes an abscess, which can heal by itself, or if you instigate treatment, you can recover.

MR VALLY: If you go back to TRC 52, the second page, third item, it talks about five "sigarette - B - Anthrax", do you see it?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of these cigarettes prepared with Anthrax?