Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: There were love conversations between her and Mabotha, or Themba, as they called him at that time.

MR HUGO: I don't want unnecessary detail, but perhaps you should just tell us what you mean by love conversations.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: At one stage she had a conversation with him where he fell from the bed and she told him how sorry she was that he might have hurt himself.

MR HUGO: Mr Bosman, I see you find that funny. Let me tell you it is very serious in a certain aspect, respect, that Mr Potgieter in the statement given to us, he says among others, that he knew of what you say now, and Mr De Kock said that it was a lie, that something like that never happened.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I know of this specific case. It was very funny to me.  A few occasions she had such conversations with different people.  That specific case, one of the members came to me, the reader of the thing, and came and showed me specifically after we had followed the name Themba for quite a time, because we normally followed a certain person in a conversation. For instance, if Jan was mentioned, then we would follow that name for a time.

MR HUGO: So you then made a careful study of the conversations between Mrs Mandela and this specific Themba?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes, that's right.

MR HUGO: And I assume that the transcriptions were made and to whom did you give these transcriptions?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: The transcriptions were all passed through on the same, in the same way.

MR HUGO: I am asking you more specifically, for which person did you give these transcriptions?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairman, the transcriptions were normally, and I believe that this specific transcription, also went to Col Watermeyer.

MR HUGO: Is there a possibility that this transcription could have gone to Mr Potgieter?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I am not quite certain but it is possible.

MR HUGO: If I put it to you that Mr Potgieter was the investigating officer regarding this specific Johannes Mabotha case, would you agree with me that on the probabilities you might have given these specific transcriptions to him?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes, that is possible.

MR HUGO: Now over and above the amorous aspects, which you found funny, were any other political conversations, activities discussed between Mr Mabotha and Mrs Mandela?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I would not be able to say of such, to talk about that.

MR HUGO: I don't understand your answer.  That you listened to these conversations, but certainly you would have known whether there were political connotations, whether things were discussed, which could have given rise to misdemeanours or could have proved misdemeanours?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairman, if something like that had appeared, it would have gone through to the investigating officers.  If there were anything of a political nature.  For a fact I know that a call came through from the Eastern Transvaal, I am not sure whether Boskoprand or some place, where they spoke about money that he needed to get back to Johannesburg, from Mrs Mandela.

MR HUGO: And was this transcription made and given to the investigating officers?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Yes, it was.

MR HUGO: And can you make a statement, a judgment as to whether it went to the Attorney-General?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: No.

MR HUGO: Did you try to find out?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: No, I never made any enquiries.

MR HUGO: Can I ask you, why did you go ahead with tapping the phone conversations in 1990, after the armed struggle had already come to an end?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I think it is a general phenomenon, that it is done even today, just perhaps in another way.

MR HUGO: Are you involved in it?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: No, I have left.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, flowing from the questions of my ...

CHAIRPERSON: So have I, but go ahead.

MR ROSSOUW: Flowing from the questions my learned friend put to this witness, it involves my client, Col Potgieter, and I would like to ask one or two questions to this witness. I will be very brief.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Bosman, did you ever tell Col Potgieter about this whole conversation, about the relationship between Mabotha and Mrs Mandela, did you ever mention it to him?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chair, as I said, it was general, I discussed it with my people first, and the person who read it, explained it to me and then we listened. I listened, and then we passed it on.  Whether Col Potgieter had an interest in the matter at that stage or whether only Col Watermeyer was involved, the information was passed on. It was not destroyed, it was legally passed on. So I don't know to whom.

MR ROSSOUW: In other words, you can't say whether Col Potgieter was ever made aware of those allegations?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Col Potgieter did say at the time that he was building up a docket and that we had to give him certain information and from that time we made all tapes in triplicate, one for Watermeyer, one for Potgieter and one to put away.

MR ROSSOUW: Because, you see, Col Potgieter would testify. He says in his submission and he said under oath to the Attorney-General, that if De Kock had made certain testimonies in his criminal case, which was not true, and he says also that De Kock stated that Mabotha had been Winnie's sex slave, and that that was not true, but he said this in the context of the fact that he says he never got any information and never listened to any tapes during that investigation.

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I can't say that's true or not true.

MR ROSSOUW: All I want to put to you, is that you don't know whether Potgieter knew of it or not?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: I don't.

MR ROSSOUW: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you, Chairperson.
 The answer you gave to my learned colleague, is that you knew at the relevant time that her voice - referring to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was picked up.  Do you recall that?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: She was monitored throughout, from the time she came to Soweto until I suppose 1993, 1994.

MR SEMENYA: Do me a favour, I will try and repeat the question. You recall your evidence that during the relevant time her voice was picked up. Do you recall saying that?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Do you mean the time when she says she was in Brandfort?  As I said, Mr Chair, we put a tape on, it could be that it went through the weekend. On Monday morning,  you take it off, you don't know what time it was used, but there was talking on the tape and we assumed that she was, she had been in Soweto.

MR SEMENYA: I am going to ask it for the third time.  Did you say at the relevant time when she alleges she was in Brandfort, you had a transcript of her voice in her house in Soweto?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chairperson, as I said already, on the specific tape throughout the running of that tape, it doesn't give the exact time, it tells you that it is ongoing. Her voice was on that tape.

MR SEMENYA: I will repeat the question for the last time.  Was it your testimony that on that relevant time, at that relevant time, Mrs Mandela was in her house and not in Brandfort?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Mr Chair, as I have said, I cannot say during the Stompie Seipei incident that she was at home. I am saying that she was in Soweto during that weekend.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Bosman, with the greatest of respect, sometimes you are very flippant. For instance, you are just saying that the whole country is afraid of Mrs Mandela. What type of statement is that?

DANIEL FRANCOIS MALAN BOSMAN: Can you repeat, please?