Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

MR WILLS: In other words the application actually was attested to after the cut-off date for applications, is that correct, which I believe was the 10th of May 1997?

CHAIRPERSON: The final cut-off date was the 30th of September 1997, there were various extensions and the very last one, there was one in May, but the very last one was the 30th of September 1997.

MR WILLS: I am indebted to you Mr Chairperson, be that as it may, this application was signed after the cut-off, the final cut-off day of the 30th of September 1997.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Attested to Mr Chairman, yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Are there any other improvements or is it an identical document?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, on the document that was referred to, there are a number of handwritten improvements that I did, just more spelling mistakes.

MR WILLS: Oh, I see.  Okay, but essentially is the substance the same except for typographical errors?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: So I must assume that you were carefully applying your mind to this matter from as your counsel tells us in 1997 and then you looked through it carefully at that stage and you made those corrections, is that correct?  When did you make those corrections to this draft, I am talking about the handwriting changes on for example page 109 and 110?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am not sure when I made those corrections.

MR WILLS: But I mean what year was it?  You don't know?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I am not sure, no.

MR WILLS: If you don't know, tell me you don't know.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I cannot say exactly when I did it, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: It might also have been in 1999?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I think I have to explain here, my lawyer is in Port Elizabeth, I am in Pretoria, so the documents were brought up to me when he was representing other people and given to me to read through, to sign and to take back again.

MR WILLS: I must assume that prior to your signing this in June 1999, that you read it very carefully?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I went through the document.

MR WILLS: And as far as you are concerned, this is the most accurate recollection that you have of the incident that pertained on that day?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now, did you have any reason to omit from your application the fact that you heard these screams and you were convinced, or the shouts as you described them, and you were aware of the fact that the deceased was being beaten?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I had no reason to do that.

MR WILLS: You were aware of the need for full disclosure?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am aware that giving evidence before this Commission, I must make a full disclosure.

MR WILLS: And you thought that even in the light of your awareness of the need for full disclosure, you thought that that wasn't an important detail to put into your application?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am aware that I must make a full disclosure as the Act implies, in front of this Commission, in person.

MR WILLS: So you thought that you only needed to fully disclose in person, it didn't matter if you didn't fully disclose in your application, is that what you are saying?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: So therefore your application in paper, and that version that we see that was signed in June, is not a full disclosure?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now, I want to turn and look at that quite carefully, before I start, I just want to try and establish the date that as far as you can remember,when you arrived in the Winkelspruit base.  You said I think it was the first time that you had been to Winkelspruit, so you should have some sort of recollection of when that was.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I said in my initial application, I wasn't sure of the date, whether it was 1987 or 1988.

MR WILLS: You cannot even remember the year?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You say 1987 or 1988, that is the most accurate that you can put it to?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is contained in my document, yes Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Okay, now we know that you were at Winkelspruit base prior to the arrival of the deceased in this matter?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: What caused you to go there?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I had to go and see Col Taylor with regards to the deployment of the other teams as well.

MR WILLS: You say as well, what else?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I had two teams there, the team under who I presume was Mr McCarter and then Mr Coetzer's team.

MR WILLS: Yes, now I would assume that you being a senior officer, and your job being to supervise, no doubt, to supervise in the sense that you wanted to check that your men were doing their job properly?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I was there to find out from the people under whom they were working, if they were satisfied with the work that they were doing, and to coordinate with them and to see that for further deployment, what was required, whether they would require people the following month and so on, that used to be my task.

MR WILLS: Yes, would you ever be involved in discussions with those deploying your people as regards the tasks which they put to those persons who were from Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is so Mr Chairman, on this occasion I also did so.

MR WILLS: Yes, I would imagine that particularly in view of your seniority, you would have quite detailed discussions and you would contribute to the planning process?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I could make suggestions as regards my people and the nature of the people to be used, people from which areas, if I may explain in more detail here, what generally happened was that the Division requiring the services of an askari unit, would generally have information as to who they expected to be in the area.  Then we would find out and go through the documentation to see which askaris knew the people that would come, so that they could make a visual identification, because that was their purpose.  Then we would try and send the best possible team to the area as requested and that used to be a fairly formidable task to ascertain which people to send to which area to obtain the best results.

MR WILLS: Yes, and no doubt on the occasion of this operation, your mere attendance in Durban and your mere, the fact that you were having discussions with Col Taylor, would indicate that you were quite deeply involved in the planning of this operation?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, in this matter the Intelligence operation of Capt Botha was an operation of which I did not have detailed knowledge.  The knowledge I got, was the day that I spoke to Col Taylor, the afternoon when I got to Winkelspruit.

MR WILLS: Okay, so you spoke to Taylor that afternoon when you got to Winkelspruit.  What time, or how long prior to the arrival of the deceased, did you arrive at Winkelspruit?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I recalled earlier, it was in the afternoon and it could have been an hour, an hour or two at the most.

MR WILLS: And then, Taylor was there when you arrived?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I recall, he met me on the highway to guide me to the place, I did not know how to get there on my own.

MR WILLS: Yes, so in other words for that hour or two you spent with Mr Taylor awaiting the arrival of certain persons, not so?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You were expecting as others, that certain persons were going to be brought to the base to be interrogated, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.