Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR DLAMINI: We did not get them at the time, but when we returned here we took ID photos and this was sent to Ulundi.  When they returned we had received our appointment certificates.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini what was the purpose of you being issued with a Kwa-Zulu Police appointment certificate?

MR DLAMINI: The purpose of this was that in all the areas that we went to in fighting the ANC, we would be able to carry guns so that we are not disturbed, and that the police should not harass or stop us on carrying out our activities of fighting against the ANC.  That is how we operated.

MR STEWART: When you were sent to this area, were given instructions as to what you would be doing here?

MR DLAMINI: I received instructions from Mudla Induna at the time - there was a lot of fighting in Mpumalanga at the time.  We were told that when we arrived here we would guide Indunas and Amakosi and counsellors in the township.  That is what we were supposed to do here.

MR STEWART: Now you mention in your application what's referred to as "Mpumalanga incident 1", and this is an attack after the death of Walter Mtelani's sister.  Do you remember that incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I remember it.

MR STEWART: Are you able to recall in what year this incident took place?

MR DLAMINI: Even though I do not remember correctly, but it did happen.

MR STEWART: Now you say in your affidavit that a result of this attack where Walter Mtelani's sister was burned to death, Mudla Induna told us that you were going to conduct an operation to retaliate.  Is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Now what was the plan, what was it that you were going to do in this attack?

MR DLAMINI: After the death of Walter Mtelani's sister, being killed by the UDF, Walter Mtelani was a Caprivi an who resided in unit 2 in Mpumalanga.  So Mudla Induna told us that if a Caprivi member has been hit or attacked, we shouldn't let things lie down, but we should do something, we should see what we should do.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, what I'm asking you, is what is it that you were then instructed to do, what was your plan in the attack?

MR DLAMINI: We planned a revenge attack because one of our members had been attacked.

MR STEWART: And who did you plan to attack?

MR DLAMINI: There was a Mpafana household opposite Walter Mtelani's house.  This Mpafana home normally had UDF members, they used to stay there.  So when this incident took place Walter did mention who had attacked his sister.  That is why we then attacked the Mpafana home where these UDF members stayed.

MR STEWART: Who did Walter say had attacked his sister?

MR DLAMINI: He did not say who specifically because, as I've mentioned, UDF members used to stay at that Mpafana house, so our attack was meant to be on UDF members who stayed there.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, tell us about the attack itself, what happened?

MR DLAMINI: Mtelani came to me to report that we should attack the house.  He told the that Mudla Induna had spoken to him.  As a policeman in the area I had a gun, a 7.65 mm which I kept with - I and Mtelani left as well as Ray Gadebe.

MR STEWART: Who else was with you Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: Just the three of us, myself, Mtelani and Ray Gadebe.

MR STEWART: Now before we carry on, let's just deal with this question of the gun.  You will have heard two days ago that Mr Khumalo explained that when he was stationed in this area as a - also with an appointment certificate from the Kwa-Zulu Police, and that he was also under the command of Lieutenant Makateni, that at night when he left the police station, he had to leave his issued firearm at the police offices, and he couldn't take it with him.  Now in this case you've said that you had your police issued firearm with you.  How did that come about?

MR DLAMINI: I'll explain this, in most instances I did not work in this particular area, I would go outside the area and guide Amakosi in areas like Pietermaritzburg and well as Indunas there.  Thereafter I would not take the gun back, but I will keep it with me.  Therefore, that is how I had the gun in my possession.

MR STEWART: So are you saying that your duties and those of Mr Khumalo insofar as the police were concerned, were different?

MR DLAMINI: They were not different but we were posted at different areas.

MR STEWART: Okay, let's get back to the attack itself.  You say there were three of you, yourself, Ray Gadebe and Walter Mtelani, and you approached this house.  What then transpired?

MR DLAMINI: We remained at Mtelani's home until it was dark in the night.  We were waiting to attack the house.  At about 2am we left Mtelani's home and went directly to the Mpafana home.  When we arrived there Ray Gadebe did not have a gun, but he had petrol bombs.  We threw these into the house.  After that I started firing.  After we finished firing we ran away.  We went to Mtelani's house and then I went home.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, when you were firing, about how many shots did you fire do you think?

MR DLAMINI: As far as I can recall, maybe I fired 10 shots.  I don't remember quite clearly, but I think it was about that.

MR STEWART: Did you fire those shots at any people particularly?

MR DLAMINI: It was at night, it was dark.  There were people screaming inside the house.  If one of them were injured or not, I do not have knowledge thereof.   But because I was outside and I was shooting directly to the windows, when I heard a scream inside, or maybe I heard a voice inside the house, I would shoot in that direction.   After that I ran away.

MR STEWART: You say you don't know whether anyone was injured or killed in that attack, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Now that was the Mpafana home, did you not perhaps hear subsequently whether anyone was injured or killed?

MR DLAMINI: No I did not hear that.

MR STEWART: Now you say in your application that a few days later you informed that you had been identified at the scene, and that the police were looking for you.  Is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.  It transpired that I had been identified, but I don't know how.

MR STEWART: And did that cause you to leave Mpumalanga?

MR DLAMINI: That cause my transfer to Pietermaritzburg from Mpumalanga.

MR STEWART: Now at some point you came to guard the Induna Ngcobo, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Whereabouts was that?

MR DLAMINI: The Induna stays in Pietermaritzburg in an area called Dindi.

MR STEWART: Is that in the Taylor's Halt area on the other side of Pietermaritzburg, the other side of Edendale?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Were you issued with firearms at that time for the purpose of your duties?

MR DLAMINI: When I left here I had a HMC, a sub- machine gun.

MR STEWART: You say in your application that you were issued with a R1 rifle, and that you also had a 7.65 mm pistol.  Is that what you're referring to?

MR DLAMINI: Sorry, I made a mistake, I had a R1 rifle.

MR STEWART: Now if we come then to deal with what's referred to as "incident 2", and this was repelling and attack with Zombi Tshabangu.  Do you remember that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Where were you when you came under attack?

MR DLAMINI: We were guarding the Ngobe house - homestead at Pietermaritzburg, myself and Zombi Tshabangu.  We were sitting around in the evening in a "rondawel".  There was no electricity in the area.  We just heard gunshots.  We had a candle in the "rondawel".  We lay flat on our stomachs, took our guns.  All the time there was gunshots, we were hearing gunshots and some bullets were coming through the windows and the door, and some through the walls.  We opened the door and started firing, flat on our stomachs.  Because it was dark, if we saw a shadow passing by, we would fire, anything that would pass by.