Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : Was Diwiti a member of the Three Million Gang,was he ever a member?

ANSWER: Yes that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : To your knowledge who was the leader of theThree Million Gang?

ANSWER: According to my knowledge there were no leaders,we were all leaders.

<UNKNOWN>: : How many members constituted the Three MillionGang Mr Taka?

ANSWER: We were about 40-50 in number.

<UNKNOWN>: : How were these members recruited, were theyrecruited from the community of Maokeng or do they come from outsideMaokeng township?

ANSWER: They were the citizens of Maokeng but how theyall met I don't know, I only found them already in a group.

<UNKNOWN>: : What acts to your knowledge were committedby the Three Million Gang against specifically the ANC members?

ANSWER: I have already indicated that I didn't take partin fighting, I would stand back.

<UNKNOWN>: : You also testified Mr Taka that you know ofacts committed against the ANC members by the Three Million Gangof whom you were a member.

ANSWER: Yes I was a member but when coming to fight Iwasn't involved.

<UNKNOWN>: : Are you unable to tell us of any acts whichthe Three Million Gang committed against the community of Maokengor even the ANC members in particular.

ANSWER: I've already said that I was arrested for somethingI didn't know.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Taka you said that there was a choir whichcould sing some hymns at the funerals?

ANSWER: Yes I said that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Would it have been the funerals of some membersof the Three Million Gang?

ANSWER: Yes that's true.

<UNKNOWN>: : Yesterday one witness told us that during someof the funerals of members of the Three Million Gang, an IFP flagwould be raised.   Is that what happened in fact?

ANSWER: Yes that's what happened.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did it happen at all the funerals of the ThreeMillion Gangs that you attended?

ANSWER: Yes I think so because, but not at all funerals.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who hoisted this flag, do you know?

ANSWER: These flags were handled by small children.

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   I would just liketo ask you the next question regarding the evidence which yougave when we talked about what Oosthuizen told you, that is SgtOosthuizen.   You said Mr Oosthuizen said you should kill peoplelike Dennis Bloem because you knew Dennis Bloem as a leader.   My question is regarding this matter, do you know of any incidentwhere Mr Dennis Bloem's house was attacked by the Three MillionGang members?

ANSWER: No I don't know about that incident.

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you very much.

INTERPRETER: The interpreters would like to rectify thethird name about the gang, instead of Tsekelewas it has to be[interjections from crowd]...the interpreters would like to rectifythe spelling mistake with Tsekeletswas, we remove the t-s at theend, it becomes "K" which means T-s-e-k-e-l-e-k-w-a-s.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MR MOTSEPE: ....I'm representing will be Senator DennisBloem.

CHAIRPERSON: : Will you be giving your evidence in Englishor Afrikaans Mr Bloem?

MR BLOEM: I prefer Afrikaans.
DENNIS BLOEM (ss)

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Bloem we've hearda lot of evidence in this case about many things which happenedover a very long period of time.   I am going to ask you to beas brief as possible when you answer my questions and not to givetoo much detail if I don't specifically ask for it.   My questions,I would just like to give you a general outline of the questionsI'm going to ask, they're going to be dealing with the politicalclimate which reigned here, the membership of the applicants,your position in the ANC at that time and what the ANC's attitudewas in respect of the establishment of so-called "self-defenceunits" and any attempts made in respect of reconciliation.  Lastly, any acts committed against you in relation to the violenceof those days.    Firstly, please tell us briefly what, accordingto you, was the political climate at the time in this area in1990.

ANSWER: After the unbanning of the political parties,a group was formed and was called the Three Million.   The situation,as from September 1990 until 1992, was sheer hell in Maokeng,I can describe it as hell.   Nobody felt safe even just to walkto his toilet at night.   I was a community leader and along withother leaders such as Reverend Gozongo, Mr Lefafa and many othersdid everything we could, everything in our power to bring thissituation to the attention of the government of the day but tono avail.

<UNKNOWN>: : I would just like to interrupt you here, ifyou could perhaps tell us what your views were regarding the politicalareas in the area.

ANSWER: Yes, the political activities were as follows- the ANC in Kroonstad were the majority party.   There was Azapoand the PAC yes those are the two political parties which I canremember but the ANC...

<UNKNOWN>: : What about Inkatha?

ANSWER: Yes Inkatha that also came to my attention afterthe Three Million Gang members were arrested by Captain De Reerit then came to my attention that they were members of the IFP.

<UNKNOWN>: : Would you say that there was freedom of politicalaction and conduct that anybody was free to take part in whateverpolitical activities he or she wanted to or was free to belongto any political grouping?

ANSWER: According to me Chairperson it was anybody'sright to join whatever political party they wanted to.

<UNKNOWN>: : My question to you is were people free to joinwhatever political party they wanted to, for instance could anybodyjoin the ANC or would there have been any obstacles preventinga person from doing so?

ANSWER: You see in 1990 when this violence and crimewas the order of the day here in Kroonstad, people were very afraidto be seen wearing any apparel that could be associated with theANC, they didn't want to be associated with the ANC in any way.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why do you say that?

ANSWER: Because this gang prevented people from for instance,I'm just going to mention a surname, for instance there will seeVan der Merwe with Dennis, then you'd be a target because thenyou'd be seen as an ANC member.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did they do which, in your opinion, preventedthe free political movement and activity of people?

ANSWER: I'm going to give some examples just to demonstratewhat I'm talking about.   In 1990 marches were arranged by theresidents of Maokeng to protest against rental monies and alsoto give expression to other grievances and this Three Milliongang disrupted these marches several times, there were consumerboycotts organised by the residents of Maokeng and once againthe Three Million gang was used to break up this boycott.   Theywere stationed at the taxi ranks in order to guard people andtell people don't be afraid buy in the town you'll not be harmed,we are here to protect you.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did they normally do when they were busybreaking up a march or a demonstration?

ANSWER: They arrived in Kombis, we normally started ourmarches at Constantia shopping centre and they would arrive thereand it's obvious the previous witness has already told the Commissionthat if people just caught sight of these people they just ranaway, and that is how the marches and boycotts were broken up.

<UNKNOWN>: : Are you aware of any other ways, apart fromwhat you've just mentioned, any other methods used by them tohinder the free political movement and activities of people, especiallyANC supporters in this area, anything apart from what you've mentioned?

ANSWER: As I've already said Chairperson, if they knewthat this person was well disposed towards or was a sympathiserof the ANC, he was immediately a target and they would then ensurethat they would attack that person.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were these attacks only directed at ANC supportersor were the attacks directed at the community at large?