Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

BONGA KHUMALO: Chairperson, to me these are two things referring to one thing because if such a person was associated with these people, I would say one task of the SDU's was to defend the community.
	If there was an easy way of gaining entry into the township by the IFP, that had to be stopped.  I therefore bring these two together.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you not raise eyebrows to people who were perceived to be associated with the IFP, did that association on its own, not cause you any problems?

BONGA KHUMALO: The association of certain people with the IFP, did not give us problems.  Is that your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  No, I am saying did the association of any member of the community with the IFP, not give you problems, the mere association?

BONGA KHUMALO: I am repeating here that we would not have said that Bonga of the IFP who associates with Sibusiso of the ANC, that would not be a problem.  That should not mean that I am a member of the IFP, the difference here is that I would also like to be specific on this one, and say that the manner in which they used to enter into the township and the manner in which they used to enjoy themselves and be happy in the presence of these people, gave a certain impression to the people in the township.
	We had a problem which was later solved at the end of the violence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I can take this issue no further.  You probably had a different reaction to people's association with people who were perceived to be opponents of the community with different communities, the situation was not the same where I come from.  You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.  You talked about (indistinct), now in relation to these girls that is Hapile Nduno and Elsie Mokoena, what was your opinion about them after having seen them in the company of the IFP members?

BONGA KHUMALO: I used to receive reports about a host of things and it took me some time before I came across them, because they disappeared for a while so that it was not a question of me having a follow up on them as to what they were doing and the blocks had orders to take care of.

MS MOLOISANE: How did you regard them when you saw them in the company of the people you thought or you said were IFP people?

BONGA KHUMALO: In my earlier evidence I explained that the role of the girls of the IFP, was to spy.  It was to spy, because they were not killed.  If they wanted something, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not diverting and moving away from the question that has been put to you by Ms Moloisane?

MR LAX: The question was how did you regard them when you saw them in the company of these IFP people?

BONGA KHUMALO: To me they were spies.

MS MOLOISANE: Now was there going to be any financial gain on the part of any of the SDU members who would execute (indistinct)?

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't you make a follow up on what he has just said Ms Moloisane, in order to assist us?  He has just come with his conclusion, he regarded them as spies, why?

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.  As a follow up question, why did you formulate that opinion that they were spies, why did you conclude that they were spies?

BONGA KHUMALO: What happened is that I explained that the role of the girls in the township, was to spy.  IFP girls, that is, so that ...

CHAIRPERSON: That is not your explanation.  Your explanation has always been that they allowed IFP easy access to the township.  You kept on insisting on that version, continuously.  You have tangentially mentioned the fact that it was widely rumoured that they were spies, but what you knew, that was within your personal information, is that they allowed easy access to IFP members.
	Ms Moloisane, please ask your question that will enable him to proceed with this kind of evidence he wants to lead.

MS MOLOISANE: Why do you say they were spies?

BONGA KHUMALO: I based this on the association they had with these people.

MS MOLOISANE: Is that all?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Was there going to be any personal gain or financial gain on the part of any of the SDU members who would participate in the killing of (indistinct)?

BONGA KHUMALO: The SDU was working for the community.  There is no way the community could have financed the SDU's, so that there was no financial gain.

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously you wouldn't know, Mr Khumalo, if they were on a frolic of their own?  That is not information that would be within your personal knowledge, would you?
	You wouldn't have been able to know whether they had financially benefitted from this operation or not if they were on a frolic of their own, and did this under the guise of SDU membership, that would not be within your personal knowledge?

BONGA KHUMALO: What I am saying here is that that is how the organisation intervened, because such possibilities existed.  A small group of people would obtain two or three firearms and claim to be members of the SDU's, that is why the organisation had to intervene.

MR LAX: No, you haven't understood the question directly.  Let me help you maybe.  The question you are being asked is by the killing of Hapile and by the shooting of Elsie, would these members who are applying for amnesty of your SDU's, would they have gained financially from that?  That is the question you are being asked.
	Nothing is asked about how the SDU was funded by the community or anything like that.

BONGA KHUMALO: Okay.  I cannot answer that one.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MS MOLOISANE: But according to the police of the organisation, and with you as a Unit Commander of the Unit in Zone 12, would there be any financial remuneration for such kind of act?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, I will disallow that question.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.  I have no further questions Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to Mr Khumalo?

MS THABETE: Yes, Madam Chair, I do, but can I have a two minute adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.  We will adjourn for five minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

BONGA KHUMALO: (still under oath)

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Khumalo, can you briefly explain whether the Commanders, that is in these four Units, the sub-units that you commanded, were they elected or appointed?

BONGA KHUMALO: They were appointed.

MS THABETE: What was the answer, sorry I didn't get it?

MR LAX: The answer was that they were appointed.

MS THABETE: Who appointed them?

BONGA KHUMALO: The sub-regional structures of the SDU.

MS THABETE: Was there any criteria that the sub-regional structure used to appoint such Commanders?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, there was a criteria.

MS THABETE: What was the criteria?

BONGA KHUMALO: They would satisfy themselves whether a person had qualities to be a Commander.
	They would try and establish whether a person could assess a situation and if such a person were to issue an order, would it be political or not.  They would basically look at the qualities that a person had.

MS THABETE: Did you take into consideration any training that such appointed people have undergone?  Did you take into consideration, any education that they had undergone too?

BONGA KHUMALO: For the Commandership I think what was important was for a person to understand, that is where education comes in, and their experience.

MS THABETE: I don't get your answer.

BONGA KHUMALO: Whatever move was made, it had to be political.  One had to understand politics quite well and be able to interpret and understand orders.
	Even though we would not say that a person should have standard 6 or 8, but a person had to understand politics.

MR LAX: The question you were asked was would the person's training or education be taken into account, and you have gone on some ramble about politics and stuff like that, but that was the question you were asked.  It is straight forward, yes or no.