Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

ADV MEMANI: And you do not dispute that her house was burnt down and as a result thereof Nono Girl organised a protest march against the burning of the house?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I cannot comment.

ADV MEMANI: And that Nono Girl's house was burnt down because she arranged a protest march against the burning of Louisa Mbongo's house?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Once again Mr Chair, I cannot comment on that.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Loots, you have applied for amnesty?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: For what acts have you applied for amnesty?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I think my legal representative ought to answer that Mr Chair.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I must say I did not know this morning that my attorney did have Colonel Loot's application here, it is here and if you want me to, I can provide the information to you.  It will take a little bit of time Mr Chairman.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Can I also please have the documents before me?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, maybe it's easier for Colonel Loots to do it himself from his application, may I hand the application to him?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Loots, I think we might save time if you might tell us those you can remember off the cuff and then we'll wait for you to make sure whether you've mentioned everything.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I would prefer to look it up.

ADV MEMANI: But it was your acts Mr Loots.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just enquire here what the relevance of this if, this is not Colonel Loots's amnesty application and I will object if any questions are going to be asked to Colonel Loots about the contents of the application.  I however don't object against him telling us exactly for what incidents he has applied for but I don't know where it's going to take us.

ADV MEMANI: If that is the case, then the objection is premature.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's difficult at this stage to come to any conclusions till one knows the acts which he has applied for amnesty for - which you indicated this morning, you'd have no objection to that information being put before us and once counsel has that information, he can then decide which questions are relevant and what are not.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairman, you will in any event recall that Colonel Loots already gave evidence before the Committee about the Mutasi matter in which he was involved in and I can tell you know that that is one of the incidents that he does apply for, for amnesty.
	Colonel, could you please just tell us what the incidents were, don't go into your evidence?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Let's start with the big thing.  In the first place
"Murder of a policeman and his wife in Hammanskraal"
"It was an attempted murder on Father Shipo Smangaliso Patrick Makatshwa"
"Attempted murder on Advocate Ernst Dikgang Moseleki"
"Transgression of the Act on explosives"	
"Transgression of the Act on arms and ammunition"
"Arson"

MR DU PLESSIS: Is that all"

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: If I left something out, it was not my intention.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, can I just to make sure, there certain other lessor charges or lessor things that you mentioned ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, if my learned friend wants to ask questions, he must wait for the time to re-examine.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he's trying to do is draw the witnesses attention to some other part of the document that he'd been invited to look at.  Is this for offences other than gross violations?

MR DU PLESSIS: No Mr Chairman, these offences include offences which are not gross violations of human rights.  All I'm trying to say is you will remember that our applications included all other criminal offences which could be competent verdicts under a specific crime and where he mention murder in the application obviously it could have mentioned assault etc., etc., and I'm just making clear that he just mentioned the one but it's not necessarily the only one that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It covers all the alternative verdicts on that charge, is that all you were trying to say?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I  don't think you need to tell the witness, you can just make that clear to us.  I think we all know that is the position where you apply for one.

ADV MEMANI: And the arson, in respect of what building and whose building was it?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Can I just make sure from my legal representative.
	Can I respond to that question?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I didn't hear the question properly.

ADV DE JAGER: Excuse me, the interpreters just want to - it might be that we can have a short break.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short break.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: s.u.o.

ADV MEMANI: ...[inaudible] that you applied for.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chairman, can I just make sure from my legal representative?
	May I continue?
	It was a church building in the Mamelodi residential area Mr Chair, and it was known to me as Legodi's Church.

ADV MEMANI: Did you say that this house was in Mamelodi?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, not the house, the church.  I said it was in Mamelodi Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: And did - do you know if Bokaba has applied for amnesty in respect of any of the matters you have applied for amnesty for?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I don't really know.  Bokaba is going come and testify, my learned friend can ask Bokaba about that.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he can be expected to give evidence about what somebody else has applied for.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Is it just in respect one instance of arson that you're applying amnesty for?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is correct Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: There are no incidents of petrol bombings that you apply for?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: It was specifically petrol bombs that were used in this incident but not any other incidents Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: And where did the attempted murder of Dikgang Moseleki take place?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I object against this really.  This is going into the detail of the application, that application does not even concern a gross human rights violation.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, he mentioned attempted murder but if you read the application itself, you will see that it wasn't really attempted murder and that is why it was also not included in any of the hearings of any of the other amnesty applicants who were before you.

ADV MEMANI: The simple question is, where was this?  You were prepared to tell us that the church was in Mamelodi.

MR DU PLESSIS: I object Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question - where was what?

ADV MEMANI: Where did the attempted murder on Dikgang Moseleki take place?
	Now Mr Chairman, I do not see the difference between telling me that the arson was in Mamelodi and telling me that the attempted murder was in Attridgeville or wherever it took place.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood it, the purpose of this question was whether these offences were connected with any of the offences before us.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I'm interested in a wider enquiry than you think, I am trying to say that the policemen in Pretoria committed acts of arson and other criminal offences in and around the area and I am trying to say - I hope I will be successful in doing so, that these things took place in Mamelodi.
	And if these things did take place in Mamelodi, then it is somewhat probable that Ngo, being a member of the security police, would have participated in certain illegal activities in Mamelodi or surrounding areas.