Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Six.

JUDGE WILSON: .. of Mr Bizos' bundle?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: So, he is correct in saying there has been a substantial change to 9(4)?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Mpshe will probably be able to confirm this, the fact raised by Judge Wilson, that it was faxed, I think he will have a letter, Mr Mpshe, will have a letter on his files in which the original document which was sent in November, apparently, somehow or other got lost at the Committee's offices and Mr Mpshe and I had a telephonic discussion and then it was faxed to him.  I think he will be able to confirm this and it will be in his files.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct, Mr Chairman, I can confirm that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it now appears, Mr Derby-Lewis, that there have been certain additional pages that were not part of your original application, you are aware of those?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are about to be questioned on the difference between the contents of those pages and your original application.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Now, Mr Chairman, I believe I am being questioned, but I would appreciate a short time just to peruse this document, because, you know, because, as Mr Bizos says, it differs from the other.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  How many pages are there that have to be perused?

JUDGE WILSON: Four.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Four, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Four pages.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Four pages.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And on the other one it is five.

UNKNOWN: These are my notes from cross-examination.  I am entitled to put these questions to Mr Derby-Lewis.  I am merely handing it in, in order to assist the Committee in order to solve the riddle of the different documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

UNKNOWN: I do not know, I am entitled to put the questions cold, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are Mr Bizos.

UNKNOWN: May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, with respect, we have not received the notes of Mr Bizos.  What we have received is the bundle, which is now referred as R7, and that is what the witness is asking the Committee's indulgence, he wants to peruse R7, which he did not have in his possession, and then compare it with the documents referred to which were submitted at a later stage, which comprises pages 17 to page 22.  That is what the witness asked.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, R7 comes from their file, Mr Chairman, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: ... but the, let us, I will withdraw my objection, Mr Chairman, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: ... for his looking at the document.  I do not know what he can do about it.  It may be quicker rather than having long arguments.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, because otherwise each time you put a question he will start paging through the documents to find ...

UNKNOWN: Let him look at it.  I do not know what he can do with it, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Walus, Mr Prinsloo, without wasting too much time, can you quickly look through it, because I am sure a lot of this is very familiar to you.  It should not take you too long.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I will do it as quickly as ...

CHAIRPERSON: These are part of your papers.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... possible, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I will certainly do it as quickly as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  We will stand down just for a few minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: I trust that we are ready to proceed now.  Mr Bizos, you may proceed with your cross-examination.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Derby-Lewis, the short adjournment was (speaker's microphone not on) did your wife join you and your legal representatives in consultation.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Did your wife join you in the consultation that you had during the adjournment that was granted by the Committee?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My wife was present in the room.  She came to greet me, Mr Chairman, because she did not have time before the commencement of the session.

UNKNOWN: Who drew your application for amnesty, your attorneys or your wife?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the document which is under question was the document which I sent in as part of my application before I had access to legal advice.  So, ...

UNKNOWN: Who drew the application?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Not your wife?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, my wife filled in some of the questions as far as the attachment was concerned, but I drew the information up and provided it.  I had no access to the facilities, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: You did not have an access to The Patriot and the other documents that quoted there?  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not aware of quotations out of The Patriot in my application.

UNKNOWN: The annexure to your application is full of quotations from The Patriot.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Those were drawn up at my request, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: At your request by?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I beg your pardon?

UNKNOWN: Who drew them up?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: By my wife.

UNKNOWN: By your wife?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, at my request.  Who else would do it for me?

UNKNOWN: Was it your wife here before the original commencement of the proceedings?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Before the commencement of these proceedings?

UNKNOWN: This morning, yes, was it your wife up on the stage in order to see you before the proceedings commenced this morning?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Very briefly, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: But very briefly.

UNKNOWN: No, but what you said that she came up, because she did not have time to see you in the morning, that was not quite correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, but I qualified my statement by saying that it was, she only was able to see me very briefly before the ...

UNKNOWN: You qualified that when I put it to you that your wife did, in fact, see you this morning.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not, Mr Chairman, I qualified it when I spoke to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Bizos, let us get down to the real ...

UNKNOWN: To the substance.

CHAIRPERSON: ... issues.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now, I am going to put to you that the amendments to the application were made in order to bring them, to bring your application into line, possibly some of the decisions given by the Committee, that you became aware of after you filed your original application.  What do you say to that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I say that that amendment was submitted on the advice of my attorneys who were responsible for the submissions from page 17 onwards on my behalf.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Now, let us just go through some of them, the more important ones.  I will refer to the summary, Mr Chairman, for the sake of...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: ... R8.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Will you please look at the third last one from the bottom.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What page?  Sorry, Mr Chairman, what page is that?

UNKNOWN: R8, page two.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page two.  Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: "We were now at the stage where other methods
would have to be used to ensure our freedom from a communist dominated regime."
Now that was in the old application and it does not appear in the amended application.  Do you agree?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What was in the amended application was,
"... simply to ensure the freedom of our people.".

UNKNOWN: Do you agree that what I read out on the left-hand column does not appear ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That ...

UNKNOWN: ... in the amended application?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Now, when you wrote in the original application,
"We were now at the stage ...",
who is the "we" that you were referring to.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: We on the right, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: We of the right, not any particular individuals?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.