Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: After she had confessed as to what she had done and who else was involved, one of them said "since she had said so, she must be killed."

MR RICHARD: How far away from that person, were you when you heard him say that?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Close to me and Emma, this person was closer to me and Emma.

MR RICHARD: Now, at that stage, did you see Johannes Mahlangu or Charles Skosana near you?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: No, I didn't see Johannes.  I saw Charles.

MR RICHARD: How far away from you, was he?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Charles was closer to me.   I was closer to Charles.

MR RICHARD: Who lit the petrol?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: After we had poured the petrol, I didn't see the person who lit the match, but Janya said "Charles, were is the match" and Charles took the box of matches and said "here".  When he said so, a Police van were approaching and the  lights were direct to where we were and I looked at those lights and when I turned back, the body was already on fire but I didn't see the person who actually lit, but the box of matches was with Charles.

MR RICHARD: Now, on the mountain, were people singing, toyi-toying?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, they were singing and they were toyi-toying.

MR RICHARD: What were they saying, what were the words of the songs?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: One song called (indistinct)

MR RICHARD: What does that mean to you?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: It means if you don't come out with the truth, you will be burnt.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did your age brothers, your comrades, believe are impimpi's and moloi's?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: They must be burnt.

MR RICHARD: If it had been an impimpi on the mountain, would they have sung any different song?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: They will sing the very song and other songs as well, because there are quite a number of songs.

MR RICHARD: Were any other songs sung before Emma was set on fire?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, there were.

MR RICHARD: What were they?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: (Indistinct), meaning an informer is not required, it is banned.

MR RICHARD: Why did you see, yourself personally, Emma Mtsweni's killing as political?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: As we as comrades knew that informers and witches were not needed in the community and on top of that, on that particular day we had leaders amongst us, they are the ones who sanctioned the actions.

MR RICHARD: How would that further the cause of the liberation struggle?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: How would the killing of Emma Mtsweni further the freedom struggle, the liberation struggle?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: As he or as she had confessed that she was doing that, other witches were going to be scared to do the same and therefore development was going to ensue.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Richard.  Mr Mokoena?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena.  Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Does the Panel have any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes, just maybe one or two.  On the way to the mountain, did Emma try to do anything to free herself and perhaps run away?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: No, she didn't try on our way to the mountain.

ADV SANDI: You have said that she was questioned at the mountain.  Who was questioning her?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Victor Ntuli.

ADV SANDI: How was she questioned?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: He questioned her about her running away and he wanted to know why she was running away and she answered back that the reason she ran away was because she had done that and she wasn't alone and also that her motive was not killing my parents, but it was to make them crazy.

ADV SANDI: What I want to know is did Victor Ntuli use any physical force  to question her?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: No, she was not assaulted, she was just questioned.

ADV SANDI: Was he carrying anything in his hand or hands whilst he was questioning her?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, he had something in his hand, it was the container, the five litre container of petrol.

ADV SANDI: Then she made what you refer to as the confession that she was a witch?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Victor didn't touch her, he questioned her and she said "yes, I have done that but my aim was not to kill them, but was just to make them crazy."

ADV SANDI: Did anything happen to the person whose name she mentioned, did anything happen to that person, the one who was said to have given her the muti?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Could you please repeat the question?

ADV SANDI: You have mentioned a name, I think  you have said it was Mahlangu who supplied the medicine, the muti.  what happened to Mahlangu, did anything happen to him?  You said the group went out to fetch him?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: After the group had left, immediately a Police van came.

ADV SANDI: So is it today the position that nothing ever happened to Mahlangu?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: No, nothing, nothing happened.

ADV SANDI: I understood the first two applicants to say that it was dark at the mountain, where were you able to see these people you mentioned, you said, you mentioned a number of names of people who were there at the mountain?  It was dark but you were still able to see these people, or was it not so dark that you could not see them?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, it was dark, but we were together, they were just next to me, close.

ADV SANDI: Now, Victor Ntuli, do you know if he occupied any portfolio in the ANC or any political organisation aligned with the ANC?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: What I can say is that I am not certain about his position but he was a comrade.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but would you be able to rate him at the same rank as Scwadi and Skosh?  Would he have been of about the same rank in the organisation or was he just an ordinary ANC supporter?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, I can.

ADV SANDI: Did you see Scwadi and Skosh at the mountain?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, I saw them.

ADV SANDI: What did they do or what did they say?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: They said "since she had confessed, then we must finish with her."

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mtsweni, on page 15, when you were answering question 10(a) you said there is no political objective to be achieved on this matter, since it is very painful.  My question is did you misunderstand the question or at the time you were completing the form, you believed that there was no political objective to be achieved?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR SIBANYONI: Let me maybe rephrase the question.  Did you complete the form on your own, or did somebody help you to complete the form?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: I did it on my own.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you look at page 15, it says there is no political objective to be achieved.  Did you misunderstand what you were asked or at that stage you believed there was no political objective to be achieved?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: I made a mistake when filling in the application.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: With your permission, if I could just take that one further.  What exactly were you trying to say there, if you say you made a mistake?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: I made a mistake, I think I didn't quite follow.

ADV SANDI: In answer to a question raised under 10(b) you seem to regret that this thing was joined by comrades who caused a lot of destruction in the matter, under 10(b)?  Can you show your man, Mr Richard?