Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you have any knowledge of the fact that General Viljoen and the leader of the AWB, Eugene Terreblanche attended meetings together and addressed people?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, he attended some of them with the leader and they did address the people.  I know there were some meeting which were not held in public.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you say "agteraf" do you mean it was secret meetings?

MR LE ROUX: No, not accessible to general members of the public.

MS VAN DER WALT: In your application you mention various towns in the Western Transvaal where the AWB got the freedom of the town, do you confirm that part, the contents?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I was present for example in Schweizer- Reneke and Ventersdorp and other various towns where the freedom of the town was handed over to the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why was this done?

MR LE ROUX: The same people who believed in governing themselves and the Boerevolk.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did this fall under the possible Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux, as the tension built up after the election that took place in April 1994, did you receive any call-up instructions from the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: We in the Ystergarde had order groups and in those order groups we were called up during the election to go to Ventersdorp for certain tasks.

MS VAN DER WALT: What would these tasks be?

MR LE ROUX: These tasks would be that for example there would be a security organisation that had to look after certain towns.  We also heard from General Viljoen that the AWB had to, or their responsibility was the towns and some of the cities and that certain things would happen, maybe war deeds would be committed.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this then the AWB, would they go over to warfare or warfare actions within these cities?  What would you have to do in these cities?

MR LE ROUX: I would like to say something Mr Chairperson.  Before this election it was basically decided upon to establish a Western Transvaal Volkstaat, so the principle of the AWB of Northern Natal, Free State and Transvaal, this did not include these areas but only the Western Transvaal as a Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did the AWB have to do, what must they do in the cities?

MR LE ROUX: They only had to accept responsibility for the cities or towns.  I understood that certain actions would be taken to ensure our Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you have to do with regard to the election?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage the way I understood it, we had to be there for protection.  Certain activities would take place which was revolutionary in a nature.

MS VAN DER WALT: You received a call-up instruction in April 1994, from whom did you receive this call-up instruction?

MR LE ROUX: One day Flokkie came to us ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that one of the applicants?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: It is applicant number 5.

MR LE ROUX: He then informed us, we had an order group  and then we received information regarding this matter.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you have to go?

MR LE ROUX: We were told to go to Trim Park in Ventersdorp and to meet at a certain date.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was Mr Vlok involved with the AWB headquarters in Ventersdorp?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you say tell us, what did you have to do?  Did you got with your wife and children to Ventersdorp or what was the situation?

MR LE ROUX: They would make provision for women and children.  I had a business at that stage and I closed the business because I thought that it would take a few months and I could come back to my business but I closed it and I followed the call-up instruction.

MS VAN DER WALT: Some of the other applicants mention in their applications that they left their work and jobs, sold their houses and went to Ventersdorp, do you have any knowledge of that?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did everybody have to leave everything and go to the Western Transvaal?

MR LE ROUX: Because it was a turning point within our political vision and every body would have acted together, it would have been a countrywide action.

MS VAN DER WALT: At the Trim Park at Ventersdorp where you met, was anything said to you there?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, several things were said, we would have stayed there, they spoke of a security organisation where we would have been divided into.

MS VAN DER WALT: During the behaviour there was it said to you that there would be maze available for the people who got together there?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And it would have been used when the war started?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: After you arrived in Ventersdorp at Trim Park, were there already other members of the AWB there?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you go from there?

MR LE ROUX: From there we went to Barnard's farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this now the first applicant?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is the first applicant.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, continue.  What happened there?

MR LE ROUX: We went to Barnard's farm and there all the women and ourselves camped there, most of us had tents or caravans, and we gathered there on his farm.  It wasn't very appropriate though, there were trees but there weren't any other facilities.

MS VAN DER WALT: And from there, where did you go?

MR LE ROUX: A meeting was held and we decided to go to the other applicant, Jan de Wet's farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did the men also go there?

MR LE ROUX: The men and the women went there.

MS VAN DER WALT: At a stage the men went on their own to a farm, a game farm in the Magaliesberge, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: The same day we arrived at Jan de Wet's farm we were called up and we had to go to this game farm close to the Magaliesberge.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did the men move there openly or did you move in secret?

MR LE ROUX: We moved there openly.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who was in charge of this gathering?

MR LE ROUX: The camp commandant, he's another applicant here, Fourie.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there any Generals involved at this gathering?

MR LE ROUX: There were several Generals there and we saw them every day or every day I was there.

MS VAN DER WALT: The General who was in charge of the game farm, who was he?

MR LE ROUX: It was General Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then at that time he was the Secretary General of the AWB, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there any other General there who was involved at this camp?

MR LE ROUX: The head of the Ystergarde was there, he was present there.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his name?

MR LE ROUX: Mr van der Merwe.

MS VAN DER WALT: And he was a General at that stage?

MR LE ROUX: No, he was a Brigadier.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Brigadier van der Merwe was responsible for the training of the Ystergarde, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when I talk of training I mean military, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, military.

MS VAN DER WALT: And there at the game farm you were prepared to do warfare, was there ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr le Roux, who was responsible for the training?

MR LE ROUX: The person who was responsible for the training was Mr Leon van der Merwe, a Brigadier in the Ystergarde.

CHAIRPERSON: Deon van der Merwe?

MR LE ROUX: Leon van der Merwe.

CHAIRPERSON: The ranks such as General and Brigadier, was that in the AWB's hierarchy of ranks or in other institutions hierarchy?

MR LE ROUX: The Ystergarde's ranks differed from that of the general "wen" commando of the AWB.  The rank of General for example didn't exist in the Ystergarde, it was only a rank that existed in the then "wen" commando.  The highest rank in the Ystergarde was Brigadier and there were two Brigadiers in the Ystergarde.