Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR MALINDI: You've already indicated that Nomasonto was highly - Betty Boom was a highly placed person in MK and in order to deal with her you needed enough time and so on, is that recognition of the fact that she's a highly placed person in MK?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: She was a highly placed in MK, Chairper-son.

MR MALINDI: Why would such a highly placed person in MK, make it so public that she was disgruntled within the ANC, she wants out?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I'm not in a position to answer why she would it public, but it was made public by her.

MR MALINDI: Because the point that I want to make is that a soldier in a liberation army, if they showed those tendencies that they wanted to desert for the reasons that have been given by Jantjie and Jagga, that act would have been a stupid act on their part, because they wouldn't be trusted as loyal soldiers, isn't it so?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't follow completely, perhaps I'm - I don't follow exactly what you're saying now.

MR MALINDI: What I'm saying is that a highly trained, highly placed soldier of MK would hardly desert the army for the reasons that have been given by Jantjie.  Do you agree with me?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I can't speak for the person's reasons as to why they want to do a thing like that.

MR MALINDI: It sounds highly ...(intervention)

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It's happened before, it's happened on a number of occasions that people have turned away from the ANC and given information.  This wouldn't be the first case that this has ever happened.  Mainly it's because of the lack of money.  When these people - I'm not using a, doing it collectively, but you get individuals that would do it for money.  The actual motivation behind their thoughts and so on, I can't tell you.

MR MALINDI: What I'm finding improbable is that such a highly placed person is recruited whilst in Lesotho, no force is used, she voluntarily comes across into Ladybrand, she agrees to continue to work for you.  A day after, another person is fetched, Nomasonto, she immediately agrees to work with you.  A day after, another person is fetched, Tax, he agrees with you.  A whole unit of highly trained cadres of MK, turns against the ANC just like that, is unbelievable.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Perhaps it sounds unbelievable, but that's what happened, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You know we have heard a lot of - firstly, to say you're correct, there were people who turned their backs on the ANC, but on different grounds.  We have heard how askaris were turned to work for the Security Forces, but we also were told about the amount of pressure exerted on them to work as askaris for the Security Forces.  And I think what Mr Malindi is driving at is that with these three it's merely an approach, to these four it's merely an approach and everything just works hunky-dory.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, it happened like that you know, I don't know how to answer the question.

MR SIBANYONI: Well maybe to refer to what Eugene de Kock once said, he said ...(intervention)

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Sorry, I can't hear you, people are making a noise, Chairperson.

MR LAX: It might help if you put the headphones on.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Oh sorry.  Okay, sorry.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm saying, in one of the amnesty applications I remember De Kock's words were a little bit harsh, because he was saying ...(intervention)

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Sorry Chairperson, this is in Sotho, it's coming through in Sotho.

MR SIBANYONI: I'm saying, in one of the hearings Eugene de Kock put it very harshly, he was saying when these ANC cadres were captured they had to choose between two things, either to cooperate with the police, or to be eliminated and then he gave the impression that - he also said, in one of the applications that he ... they had not time to take these people to court, because it was useless, you wouldn't get any people to be witnesses and the like and then the only thing which will save a captured person was to agree to work with the police.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I will not dispute what he said, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: May I just follow up by saying, a highly trained person or a person with a high position in the ANC, we will find it strange for that person just to immediately agree to turn and work against the ANC, without any resistance.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It does sound strange, Chairperson, but I think these circumstances that we're describing here are unique circumstances, it's not the general rule, the normal sort of thing that transpired.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Chairperson.  I'm sorry to intervene.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	You see, it sounds to have happened so well and so easily that it tends to raise the question whether something was not hidden from Thulo.  These people were brought to the farm, he last saw them on the farm, he was not allowed into the room where they were being questions or debriefed, or whatever.  It sounds like it would be fair to suggest that these people arrived on this farm and they were last seen on this farm.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, as I've said before, I wasn't on the farm, I can't really comment on what transpired and where Thulo was and why he was not ... but I think I know why he was not in on the debriefing and so forth.

MR LAX: Well if you know, tell us.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.  I think an informer is not happy with people in their presence that they're not familiar with, they're not at their ease ad they don't want to talk freely in front of somebody that they don't know and don't trust.  If you don't know somebody, you don't trust them.  If you haven't been working with somebody, you don't trust them.  So I can only assume that that is the reason why he wasn't in on the debriefing, he wasn't part of the handlers.

CHAIRPERSON: As a colleague, instead of being shown another room to occupy, why wasn't he told this, that: "Look, you've got to be away because now these people are accustomed to Jagga and Jantjie, that you wouldn't be required in the debriefing"?   And further, that these people according to Jantjie and Jagga, they were the people who made contact with Ms Betty Boom, but you went into that room despite being a person not known to Betty Boom?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson, but I wasn't part of the debriefing.

CHAIRPERSON: And the first part of my question, why it was not said to Mr Thulo that: "Look, we wouldn't require you here in the debriefing, you go somewhere because she must speak to people she's accustomed to"?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I don't think it would be necessary to tell somebody that's a field operator, that is a handler of sources themselves, I think it's, only if you're invited to sit in on a debriefing, would you even consider being there.

CHAIRPERSON: But in this instance, if I understood him correctly, it was like he was told: "You go there", and the only time he would come around is when the others were not there to just guard these people.  You heard that ...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Perhaps it was so that he was told to please wait in the other room or whatever, I'm not sure.  I won't dispute that at all, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you recall?  I know this happened a long time ago, because with Ms Betty Boom, you were present when she was fetched.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were present up to the farm where Betty Boom was taken to.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.