Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, those assignments were - the nature of those assignments were covert operations.  In other words, they were something illegal, not the ordinary duties of a policeman?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Can I just ask your comment on your affidavit in the main bundle on page 16, it's in Afrikaans, and this deals with the first attempt on the life of the deceased.  I will do a rough translation of what is said here in the first paragraph, towards the middle of that paragraph, dealing with the situation after you had loaded the deceased into your vehicle.  You say that - about halfway down that first paragraph, that you had confronted the deceased, you ordered him to get into your vehicle and you then ordered the driver of the vehicle to drive out of the city.  And then you say, in the next sentence, and that's what I really want you to focus on.  On the outskirts of the city you ordered the deceased to get out of the vehicle and to follow you, but after a short distance he freed himself and escaped.  Now is that what happened, or what?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He never got out driving a car, we are the people who were driving the car with him.  I alighted from the vehicle leaving my colleagues who later alighted from the vehicle and I went to the dongas because I wanted to relieve myself, but I think there was a mistake, that it was as if he was the person who was driving the car.  He never drove the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you misunderstood it.  What I really want you to respond to is, this one sentence that says that you ordered the deceased out of the vehicle on the outskirts of the city, you ordered him to get out of the vehicle and to follow you and after a short distance he freed himself and he escaped.  And then it carries on to say that you shot him.  Now did you order him out of the vehicle, did you ask him to follow you, did then free himself and escape?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He was told by them, but I was not in the car at the time because I was relieving myself in the dongas.  He escaped in their hands.  I was not behind him, but I was rather in front.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you see this is your affidavit that I'm referring to and it's deposed to on the 10th of June 1998, and I'm asking you about that specific sentence here in your statement.  Now is this right or not?  Is this true or not, this sentence which says that you ordered the deceased to get out of the vehicle on the outskirts of the city, he followed you, then he freed himself and he escaped and you shot him?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, that is not what happened, that is a mistake there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, Mr Malan, have you got any re-examination?

MR MALAN: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I would just like to ascertain from Mr Gumengu - you had received instructions to kill the deceased and you must have formed some way or other of how you're going to execute your task.  Where did you think of executing the deceased?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I knew that wherever I meet him I was going to shoot him.

MR MALAN: But you indeed met him in the city, or in Umtata and you didn't shoot him, so you must have had some plan to shoot him at some stage at some place in cold blood, broad daylight in the middle of Umtata, or would you prefer to do it somewhere in an obscure place like a bush or wherever?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was supposed to shoot him at spot whereby no-one would see me or him.

MR MALAN: For what reason must nobody see you, because you were backed by the government?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Although I was backed by the government, there were units who were involved in some secret operations.  I can say that they knew that there was something called human rights violations, but the government would be involved in clandestine operations, that's why there were special operations(?) who would be involved in these clandestine operations to make sure no-one regards the government as their enemy because of such operations.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan.   Yes, Mr Gumengu, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, we just want an indication as to what remains in this matter.  We have more work than this in this session, so we would like to see what the rest of our session would look like.  Mr Malan, are you in a position to indicate to us?  Are you intending to call any other witnesses over and above the applicants?

MR MALAN: Mr Chairperson, I just learnt today that one of the senior officers is apparently available here.  I haven't had the chance to have a consultation with him, but my intention was to at some stage lead the second witness and as a third witness to testify on behalf of both of them as a mere background.  I think it will be in the interests of all parties concerned to have an independent person that was there chief at some stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, no that's fine.  I just wanted an idea of what time we're talking about.  So that's a general witness?

MR MALAN: That's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Who will speak about the general situation.

MR MALAN: I don't presume it's going to take much time.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it shouldn't.  So that would be the sum-total as you are presently advised, in respect of the applicants?

MR MALAN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Mnqandi, what is your position, are you going to lead any evidence in this matter?

MR MNQANDI: Yes, we are going to lead about two or three witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Two or three?

MR MNQANDI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Eye witnesses or what?

MR MNQANDI: The mother of the deceased and two eye witnesses, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So the mother of the deceased as a sort of a background and two eye witnesses?

MR MALAN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, there's one witness I intend calling, in fact just to confirm what is contained in the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Well I must say that we intend to finish off the testimony in this matter before we rise here tomorrow, because at this stage our session here is until - initially it was until sometime towards the middle of the day tomorrow, but we are not in a position to allow this matter to be turned into a partly-heard thing, so we are going to finish it up tomorrow.
	We have an idea - it looks as if it's going to be quite a stiff schedule, but thank you, we just wanted some indication as to what still must be done in this matter.  Ja, there are some suggestions of ways and means.  But at this stage at least we will adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock, in order to carry on with this matter and finalise it.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS