Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

DR BORAINE: Let me put it a little differently then, Kenny was not released, he escaped and he tells the community that he has been very badly assaulted and he has scars and wounds to prove that but also he expresses very deep concern about Stompie's safety and health and possible death. Now you went on the 13th, I mean this was a very important, I mean you were very involved in this. You were very concerned about the safety and security of the children or the young people or the young men, but you go there and you are assured that they are safe and sound.  So you must have, I put it to you that you must have asked her what about Stompie because we hear that he is very badly hurt and that he may be dead or  he may be dying.  Please tell us or can I see him?

REV MBANGULA: Yes it is true what you are saying Dr Boraine but in that particular context I really did not ask that question.

DR BORAINE: Why not?

REV MBANGULA: Well I don't know, but I didn't.  That particular question, I don't remember me asking this and it was not only myself, it was a number of us.

DR BORAINE: Has it anything to do with I mean, you see what we - no let me speak for myself as a Commissioner, listening over these four days.  We've just heard from Dr Motlana that he went there too and that he doesn't know why but he didn't ask to see the children because all he wanted to do was to get their release, you don't ask to see the children, you don't even ask if Stompie is okay, because you've just told me that you didn't ask that question, yet the major concern seems to be the safety and the security of the children.  I mean was there, I mean was there a political reason, were you afraid to put these questions because of the status of the person to whom you were putting the questions, please help us?  I mean you are a deeply-caring man and you clearly took action, you were concerned, you go to the house but you don't ask about the children except to be asked where are they, you don't ask to see them, you are told they are safe and sound but you've already heard that somebody has been badly assaulted and that he's terribly worried about this little boy of 14 years old called Stompie.  Now please try and help us to understand why it is that you and others just didn't seem to be able to get to that point.

REV MBANGULA: It might have been an oversight on my part in particular, but I think you need to understand that there were two things that were running concurrently.  I was concerned about what was said about Reverend Verryn to have been misusing the children, those young people, that was a real great concern.  On the other hand there was also the concern that they have been removed and therefore we wanted to establish - so for me those were the two things, but then I would accept that it must have been an oversight, particularly to focus on Stompie because yes, it is true by then there was a rumour that Stompie might not be well.

DR BORAINE: I won't take that any further.  Just let me Chairperson, with your leave, ask the question now about the follow-up and I am asking it because I wasn't sure when you were asked an earlier question by my colleague.  The question was asked or stated that there was a degree of, a very large degree of urgency about this matter and you concurred, you said, yes of course that's why we are meeting, that's why we were going.  Now you were at the meeting and according to Bishop Storey at that meeting he raised the possibility, so great was the sense of urgency that the Methodist Church, and he as a representative of that church were considering asking for an interdict, taking legal action.  Now I thought I heard you say yes, you were there, yes you heard that, but the members of the Crisis Committee didn't really oppose it so much or refuse or reject it but tried to say well is this perhaps not the right way, perhaps there was another way of doing it, can you just tell us again what happened as far as you recall?

REV MBANGULA: I would not recall exactly what happened but I think what was said in that meeting was yes we understand the urgency, we have some structure in place that would like to get into this matter and we want to pursue the matter up to the point whereby we can feel that there is nothing more that we can do and therefore we are asking the church can you hold it a bit, for me that was the essence of it.

DR BORAINE: Last question.  Just to make absolutely sure for the record, so according to your recollection however vague it may be the issue of taking legal action was raised but that in the ensuing discussion some people felt that was perhaps premature?

REV MBANGULA: Right.

DR BORAINE: Okay, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Khoza Mgojo.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you Sir.  You are the minister of the Methodist Church.

KHOZA MGOJO: And during that time you were a superintendent minister?

REV MBANGULA: Correct.

KHOZA MGOJO: And Paul Verryn was one of your ministers?

REV MBANGULA: Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: And Mama Mandela was a Methodist member of the church?

REV MBANGULA: Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: Why were the structures which are there in a church to deal with situations which are like this when they are involving two members of our church, not used?  You see I hear the Crisis Committee did not and not, I don't hear anything about the structure of our church which is there which would have dealt with this situation, there's a vacuum here in the whole process, why was it not used?

REV MBANGULA: Well I am not sure how to answer that question, but I think that we had a situation whereby there was the Bishop on the one hand, there was myself in the circuit, there was the community on the other, and the nature of the issue had taken a total, I mean a clear community kind of aspect, it was more than just a church itself, and I think it's in that context that I felt or we felt that in order to be able to address it we cannot only do that as Methodists, we will have to work on that as the collective of the churches.

KHOZA MGOJO: If some people, as they have said already, that our church used a double standard of morality, would you agree with that, that if the person who was concerned was not Mama Mandela you would not have taken this line?  Do you agree with that?

REV MBANGULA: Yes and also if the people were concerned were clearly all of them were members of the church, we are talking about young people who were not necessarily members of the church, they were living in the Mission house but they did not belong to the Methodist Church, and therefore structurally there is no way in which I could call them into a leaders' meeting and say this and that and that, to them.  And I haven't heard a case whereby one would take a person from you know the street and say I am calling you to account in the church's court.

KHOZA MGOJO: Sorry I don't want to pursue this question but I could pursue it because I feel that the procedures of the church were not followed here.  When those children were in the Methodist manse they were under the custodianship of our church, that was the Methodist property.  That property did not belong to Bishop Paul Verryn, it belonged to the Methodist church and anybody who was an inmate there was under the custodian of our church, but I don't want to pursue that.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dumisa.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chair.  You see Reverend Mbangula I think - oh you were superintendent, sorry to demote you.

REV MBANGULA: No, no I am reverend that is okay.