Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-08-28

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: You are not using big words but I was not catching what you were saying.  I couldn't understand exactly what you were saying.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mohapi, when you were completing the application forms for amnesty why did you not say that at the time of the occurrence of all the events you have spoken about this morning you were acting to further the interests of the PAC and not the ANC, why did you not say that in the application form?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I thought that as I made the application I knew I would be called or subpoenaed to explain what I did because I was a member of the task force and together with my comrades within that unit I knew that I would be called here.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not a question of you knew, why didn't you mention it?  It's not difficult, it's not a secret.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Because I thought I would come here and tell you straight.

CHAIRPERSON: So you come here and you present us documents which say one thing, and then you come here and on oath you say something else.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: It's not so Sir because those things are able to be seen hand-to-hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Your application form was made on oath before a Commissioner.  The evidence you have given before us is on oath.  Do you realise the importance of giving evidence on oath?  Do you realise the importance of giving contradictory evidence on oath, do you realise that?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I don't see any contradiction.

CHAIRPERSON: But if one does make a contradictory statement you understand that that amounts to perjury?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: May you repeat that, I didn't hear you clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: When a man makes contradictory statements on oath do you know that that amounts to perjury, which is a criminal offence?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I know that if you have committed a crime.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mohapi let's understand you properly.  When you were asked why there was the secretary general on page 4 your explanation was that you were trying to explain what you were then which you were no longer at the time when this commission, at the time when the murder and the removal of certain items from Mr Smith's house was committed.  Now if you check - do you have your application with you?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now on page 1 you are asked a question, that question you see at paragraph 7, you have that.  Now paragraph 7 requests of you to
"State what, if you were an officer or member or supporter of any political organisation, institution, body or liberation movement, state the name thereof".
Now you have put in -
"Youth League of the African National Congress".
you understood the question?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes I did.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now why did you not include the organisation of which you were then which was the PAC?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: That is why I explained that at that time I had the membership which is in front of you today.  My membership has not yet expired but I have already made a decision to defect to the PAC.  And then for me to write that is that the Commission to see that what organisation I belonged to because I didn't have my new membership card with my new organisation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Okay fine.  You go further.  At paragraph 7B, same paragraph
"State capacity in which you served in the organisation, institution, body or liberation movement concerned".
and then you again say "I was a member with card number....". you give us the card number of the ANC which you have just handed up to us.  That still was an oversight.  Will you turn to page 4, you have already been referred to that, you see there again you speak of no other position in which you held in any organisation but you mentioned specifically the "secretary general of the ANC", those are your words.  
	And you go further Mr Mohapi, you are not just explaining the organisation of which you were, in this paragraph you are explaining the position which you occupied when you committed the offence and the reason why the offence must be seen as an offence associated with a political objective.  You give your justification as having to fund-raise for a big office you were running because you wanted to buy telephones, fax machines, transport and many other vital resources that were needed by your organisation to function in order to bring apartheid to its knees.  Do you see that?
	Now turn to page 5.  Now again at paragraph 10D you see that?  Now paragraph 10D says, you are first required at 10A to state the political objective which you sought to achieve which is the response that you gave and you say in your response -
"You wanted to achieve the establishment of the majority rule in South Africa".
and then paragraph D says, you have to state -
"If so explain the nature and the extent of the benefit".
This must be incorrect.  I am trying to read paragraph 10D in English.  Now you are required to explain the nature of your offence and you state -
"As I was running the office we had very serious financial constraints and we were financially bankrupt".
This is, you are further elaborating on the financial difficulties that your organisation, of which you were general secretary was experiencing.  
	And then you still have your document?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: See at 10C, at 10C this is what you said when you were asked to state whether any benefit accrued financially or otherwise and if so to explain the nature and the extent of that benefit.  You stated as follows
"Yes.  In order to pursue the principle of ANC financially...."
and then you say "etc, etc".
	And if you could page finally to page 6, and that's paragraph 11B, now there you are asked the following:
"Was the act committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of, or with the approval of the organisation, institution, liberation movement".
and your response is the following:
"This was performed on behalf of the in-stated(?) organisation".
I am sorry - I am now, your response is -
"As the secretary general....."
now you start by again stating your office.
"As the secretary general I had an absolute power to conduct such an operation and I briefed my executive committee".
Then you go on to give us the names of the people that you briefed being your chairperson, a Mr J Kgwalane and a Mr Orta Mbiga who was the deputy chairperson of the ANC.  Now what was so difficult in you stating here that the order was given by your unit commander who was Mr Mtjikelo?

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: Okay.  If you look at it clearly the task force is an underground cell, it doesn't - it means whatever is done there should be exposed in that way so that everybody should know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are making an application for amnesty in which you are required to make a full disclosure.

PETRUS TAPELO MOHAPI: I have a problem, my problem is it seems I am dizzy.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is the appropriate stage for you to decide.  If your client is not well to answer questions then it's another matter.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman I do not think that he has fully recovered well now to answer questions, that's why I am starting in the meantime to call Mr Khotle. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell him that he is excused for the time being because you are going to call another witness.
MR MOHAPI EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: For the Chairman's information he is already out, this is another witness on the stand Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS