Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman the next applicant is Mr Moikabi.
Mr Chairman and members of the Committee before I request that the applicant takes an oath, I want to inform the Committee as follows pertaining to this applicant.  That the applicant was enroled last year in the Kroonstad hearings whereat he formally appeared and he was represented by Mr Oupa Matsepe, together with the other applicants.  And at that hearing his application, I don't know which word to use, either was removed from the roll or withdrawn, but it did happen in Kroonstad.  Mr Chairman as I went through the application, the application form itself, and the statement made by the applicant, the applicant is denying involvement in this whole thing.  But with that background I did canvass this point with him and the fact that it was withdrawn first in Kroonstad and in this application again it is a denial.  I've made him aware of the provisions of the enabling Act in the presence of Mr Matsepe who is present here today, and I have asked him to remain in attendance to confirm that this is what transpired between me and the applicant, and if he confirms or if the Committee doesn't deem it necessary for him to confirm I would like to leave this in the hands of the Committee because I tried to explain to the applicant the implications hereof.  Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: The application before us is one that cannot BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
MR MPSHE	47	ADDRESS
be granted, you agree Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I agree Mr Chairman, very fully, and I told him again because of the application as is, he does not even have a leg - he cannot even be heard by this Committee.  This I did convey to him.

JUDGE WILSON: And there's no application, he doesn't want to lodge a new application or change it, is that what I understand from you?  This is his attitude?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I must admit during lunchtime he would, he was going to say that he was present, but I made him aware that we have got to be honest with the Committee, Mr Matsepe can confirm that.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Moikabi is there anything which you wish to say in relation to your application?

MR MOIKABI: Could you repeat the question please.

JUDGE WILSON: Is there anything you wish to say in relation to your application?

MR MOIKABI: Yes there is.

JUDGE WILSON: Well say it.

MR MOIKABI: In regard to my application we have come before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to explain about the truth which I know and how I am affected by this murder and what has put me in prison.

JUDGE WILSON: In your application you have repeatedly said you were not guilty, you didn't know anything about the attacks.

MR MOIKABI: That's true Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You confirm you were not guilty in this, you had nothing to do with these attacks?

MR MOIKABI: That's true Sir, that is my evidence which I confirm, that I had nothing to do with this matter, but I am BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
JUDGE WILSON	48	MR MOIKABI
a fully-fledged comrade, I am a member of the ANC.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mpshe is there anything further you wish to say, he appears to have confirmed the correctness of what is set out in his application?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I have nothing further to say, I leave it in the hands of the Committee.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Moikabi in terms of the Act we only hear applications for amnesty by people who, even on their own version, did in fact commit the offence in which they seek amnesty, you understand?

MR MOIKABI: Yes I understand.

JUDGE MGOEPE: We are not here sitting as some kind of a court of appeal trying and overturn what you may consider to have been a wrong judgement against you, do you understand that?

MR MOIKABI: Yes I understand that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So at the position, as the Act tells us we cannot therefore consider your application, in other words it falls outside our area of function and indeed jurisdiction.

MR MOIKABI: I understand but I wanted to show something under my personal circumstances, and before the Truth and Reconciliation, that very shortly, that you should know me what kind of a person I am.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well you have told us that you are a comrade and a member of the ANC, is there anything more that you want to tell us about? ....(tape ends)

MR MOIKABI: .... leader who was Veks Mayekiso.  In that meeting we were supposed to talk about the civic issues.  Comrade Mayekiso informed us about the killing of White people where he said the organisation is not responsible and BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
JUDGE MGOEPE	49	MR MOIKABI
it's distancing itself from this, that act.  We as the residents we were surprised by this incident, as White people were seen as people who were coming closer to the Black people.  On that day it was heard on the radio that two people were arrested and investigations are still going on.  In regard to my arrest  ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just a minute, just a minute, just stop a little bit.

JUDGE WILSON: We have heard what you say the residents felt after the killing, that is not relevant towards the application for amnesty.  We are sitting here as a Committee to decide applications for amnesty and I do not think it is in any way relevant to our function to continue to hear what you have to say about your feelings after the killings became known.  We appreciate that you people found it unpleasant.  I think that is sufficient.  Is there anything of any importance you have to say?

MR MOIKABI: Yes I have which I want to explain.

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on.

MR MOIKABI: I was a comrade for a long time in Kothlanong township.  It is true that rumours was heard that Inkatha and the Russian gang were coming to attack the comrades.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just - sorry let me interrupt you, you see you, precisely because you were not, strictly speaking you are not an applicant before us, you did not take an oath, you remember that, you didn't take an oath.  And if you are going to go on and say things which may possibly prejudice other applicants you must decide whether you want to be a witness in this case, take an oath and be cross-examined because you can't just go on saying things which possibly may prejudice other applicants when in fact you are not an
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JUDGE MGOEPE	50	MR MOIKABI
applicant before us.  You can't just say things for the sake of saying things, do you understand that?  We have people who have applied here for amnesty and if you want to get into - you must decide whether you want to be a witness, then take an oath and then those other people must come and cross-examine you where they do not agree with you, because you are not an applicant strictly speaking.  We thought we were going to give you the opportunity to say a few things and summarise yourself, but you seem to be going into the details of the incident.  Now you must decide whether you just want to summarise the point that you want to make or you are going to be a witness and then we must make you take an oath so that the other applicants can cross-examine you, because some of the things which you said may possibly prejudice the applicants before us.

MR MOIKABI: I ask to take an oath so as I will be able to testify other applicants.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well that being the case this Committee will decide whether they want you to come and testify as a witness or not and then we will treat you on that basis.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Moikabi could I try to explain to you.  The Act says if you've committed an offence or - and that offence was committed with a political motive, then you could ask for amnesty.  But if you've done nothing then you couldn't have done it with a political motive where a murder is concerned.  Now if you could tell us by doing nothing, what did you want to achieve politically?

MR MOIKABI: It is true, I understand what you are trying to explain.