Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

MR RICHARD: May Mr Skosana be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Skosana, just remain standing.  You are Charles Michael Skosana, is that correct?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may sit down.  Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Mr Skosana, in and during the end of 1990 and the early part of 1991, were you affiliated to any particular political party or organisation?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, I was a supporter of a political organisation.

MR RICHARD: If so, which one?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: The ANC.

MR RICHARD: Were you a member or a supporter?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: A supporter.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I just suggest, maybe he brings the microphone a little bit closer to him.  Thank you.

MR RICHARD: How did you participate in the activities of the ANC, what did you do to show your support?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I was following the ANC because I used to attend rallies and meetings and what was said in those meetings, I used to follow that.  That is all.

MR RICHARD: Now were you also born and educated and reared at Pieterskraal?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: You have heard the evidence of the previous applicants about where and what is Pieterskraal, and do you confirm what they are saying?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: You also heard the evidence of the previous applicants, concerning what is a moloi, ngaka, a sangoma, do you confirm what they say?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: You personally, do you believe in witchcraft?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: On those days, I used to believe that there is witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: Now I have asked many questions about what the ANC Youth at the time thought should happen to impimpi's and moloi's.  At that time, is that what you thought, the same as your previous applicants?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Informers and witches were the targets of being burnt.

MR RICHARD: Why were they to be burnt?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Because they were not the people accepted in the community.  They were dividing the community.

MR RICHARD: When did you personally first become aware of Emma Mtsweni and the fact that she was talking of witchcraft?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I heard for the first time in the last meeting.

MR RICHARD: When you say the last meeting, which meeting was that?  Where was that meeting?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: The meeting was in a school.

MR RICHARD: What stage of that meeting did you join the meeting?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Towards the end because I was from work.

MR RICHARD: At what time of the day was that?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: At about six.

MR RICHARD: Now from whom did you - when you arrived at the meeting, what did you do to find out what was happening?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: When I arrived, it was the time when the cars were on their way to fetch the deceased from her home.

MR RICHARD: Did you go with the cars to fetch the deceased?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: No, I didn't, I was left in the school.

MR RICHARD: Where did you go next?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: We waited for them until they came back, where they went to fetch the deceased.

MR RICHARD: While you were waiting, what did you learn, what was happening, why did they need to fetch Emma Mtsweni?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: When they left for the deceased's home, they didn't come back to the school, they went to Vaalbank and when they came back to the school, that is when they were with her.

MR RICHARD: While you were waiting at the school, did you talk to people?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: There were no talks, but there were singing and chanting.

MR RICHARD: What was the singing and chanting?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: They were singing about Thambo.

MR RICHARD: Did they sing about impimpi's and moloi's and witches?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: When they came back from Vaalbank, that is when they started singing about impimpi's and witches.

MR RICHARD: When they came back from Vaalbank, for how long were you still at the school before you went somewhere else?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: We stayed there until at about eight o'clock.

MR RICHARD: They came back from Vaalbank and then you all left as you have heard, for the mountain.  From the time they came back from Vaalbank to the time you left for the mountain, how much time passed, was it one hour, five minutes, 15, 20 minutes, approximately?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: When they came back, they stopped at the gate and they just said they cannot discuss this matter in the school, because they had passed Police stations, therefore we should go to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you go to the mountain?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: Why did you go to the mountain?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I had to go together with the comrades.

MR RICHARD: Why did you have to go?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I was also part of the comrades.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you know why they were taking Emma to the mountain?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Emma was questioned about witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: How did you go to the mountain?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: We were following the cars behind.

MR RICHARD: Now at the mountain,w hat did you see happening?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: She was taken out of the car, July took a five litre container and gave it to Victor.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, who took a five litre container?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: July.

MR RICHARD: July?  Thank you.  What did Victor do with that container?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: He took Emma into a certain bush and that is when we all followed.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe if you can explain what you mean by (indistinct), what structure is that one?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: It is a forest, a bush like place.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe let me just finish what I wanted to ask.

MR RICHARD: Sorry.

MR SIBANYONI: We have never heard from these other applicants, was she, that is Emma, was she walking on her own, was she maybe fastened, what was the position with her?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: As she was alighting from the car, she wasn't fastened, she had her blanket in her arm and Victor took her and pushed her inside the forest.

MR SIBANYONI: What was her physical condition, was she too old or was she able just to walk normally?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: She wasn't an elderly, but she was aged, even though she wasn't that much old, I can approximate to 50 years.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Richard.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR RICHARD: Did she go with the comrades voluntarily?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: I don't think she came willingly because as she was questioned in that forest as to whether she had done this, she said yes, but she wasn't the only one, there was someone also involved, his name is Nkabinde Mahlangu.

MR RICHARD: Did you, were you near when she was questioned, could you hear what was happening?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Yes, I was closer because I wanted to listen and find out if the allegations were true.

MR RICHARD: What did you hear?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: She answered and the comrades said Mahlangu was also supposed to be fetched in order for him to be questioned, because the allegations were that she had got the muti from Mahlangu.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  What happened when she said what she said, what happened next?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: July had already gone back and also Mahlangu's son had left with a group of comrades to fetch his father.

MR RICHARD: What happened to Emma?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: At that time, a petrol was being poured over her.

MR RICHARD: Who was pouring the petrol?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Victor.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Richard Skosana.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: Janya.

MR RICHARD: After they had poured the petrol, what happened next?