Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Firstly, Mary Agnes was targeted by Nzimeni, she was highly threatened by Nzimeni and she was told that he wants her head and even the marshals, we were staying there in order to protect ourselves because we knew that we would be able to protect ourselves if they attacked us there, and we were to protect Mary Agnes as well who was very prominent in our location at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Besides the ANC activists being targeted, were other people who were not ANC also targeted by Nzimeni's group, or attacked?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: I'm not aware about being targeted but I know that there were people that were terrorised by this group but who had not been members of the ANC and who were not prominent in the ranks of the ANC.  People in the squatter camps and that is why their cases were being referred to the police station, so that the police should be the ones to take action against Nzimeni.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The activists and non-activists, who were most targeted by Nzimeni's group?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Everybody was targeted.  We did everything in defence of ourselves and defence of our membership and defence of the community as well.  The Civic Association had political ties with certain structures that were political
and it's for protecting the community in general.  We had to defend ourselves, our members and our community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will repeat my question. Between activists 
2A.	and/...
171
and non-activists, who were most targeted by Nzimeni's group?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: The most targeted were ANC members,  ANC activists, I am sorry.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You have just commented Nzimeni told you that they were KUYOB or called themselves KUYOB or KUYOC, what was that?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: KUYOC is the Kuma Youth Congress.  After the formation of the ANC Youth Congress in 1985, if I remember well, all locations that were affiliated to SAYCO, they were calling themselves according to their location, like for instance, if you are in Kuma its Kuma Congress, if you are in Ganana it's Ganana Youth Congress in that era of 1986. After the unbanning there were other developments between SAYCO that all locations that are affiliate to SAYCO, should  say South African Youth Congress Kuma Branch. They must identify themselves as branches under South African Youth Congress and that is where KUYOC came from. When he calls himself a member of KUYOC, he's believing in things that were done in 1986, things that were done in the violence then, properties being burned down.  He was believing in that era, he's a member of KUYOC and they were also claiming that Comrade Muganyo Raymond Elij(?) who was in jail then serving a seven year sentence in public violence, we chose him as our president of the South African Youth Congress and they were claiming that he was their president, and we had to clarify that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified further that Nzimeni was an informer and he was informing for Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius who are police officers. What made you come to this conclusion?
2A.

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: /...
172

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: The thing that made us to come to that conclusion is because of the revelation by Charles Mhlambiso stating that him and Nzimeni were spies and he himself, he is an interpreter between Nzimeni and de Kock and Pretorius in their meetings that we were not aware where they're being held.  That's one of the things that made us to believe that Nzimeni's working with the police definitely.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you know what were the ranks of the two police officers, de Kock and Pretorius then?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: I don't remember, I can never know.  I disregarded their ranks.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would you say they were senior police officers?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: I can never know because about ranks I'm not aware.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know these police officers yourself?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes I knew de Kock and Pretorius.  Yes I knew them both.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How did you come to know them?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: De Kock beat Mary Agnes at her house during the State of Emergency 1990 and Mary Agnes laid a charge against de Kock.  Therefore de Kock came back after some time after that charge that was laid by Baring Letia who was beaten up by Nzimeni stating that attorney general in those cases, regarding those cases opened by the two comrades, Mr Baring Letia and Mary Agnes Kuma, and therefore I knew him personally.  And at one stage he banned comrade Mary Agnes and Comrade Steven Geme, who was just come back from prison then, he was a member of the executive of the youth. He banned them to address not more than ten people.  That's how I know de Kock.  Furthermore there was a march that was organised by the comrades in the location to the police
2A.	station/...
173
station.  I think it was 1991 after all these things in the location.  De Kock instructed policemen that were present they must shoot these marshals with tear gas and everything. I just arrived from the location, I got the report by Mr Mkontwana who tried to intervene in the confrontation between the police and the comrades.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where were these two police officers stationed?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: I'm not sure. Police move around.  Sometimes they're in Klerksdorp, sometimes in Stilfontein, wherever there's activities, wherever the ANC is. I once saw him at a funeral in Maraisdal, they were there both of them.  Wherever there were activities that were strong by the ANC particularly, they were always there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No further questions.

UNKNOWN: Mr Gcinisizwe, in your motivational statement which is attached to your application you have stated that you were informed by some defectors from the Nzimeni group of that Nzimeni was conniving with Mr de Kock and Mr Pretorius.  You have only managed to indicate so far the name of Mr Mhlambiso, is he one of the defectors who informed you of this information?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes, the one other person who, it was Kumbeni, the one who ran away the 30th of October 1990, when we caught him and we took him to Mary Agnes' house, and he also confirmed the collusion between de Kock and Nzimeni.  They were never arrested these people, even when we took them to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
2A.	MR MPSHE/...
173

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Chairperson, I intend calling the next witness, Patrick Umkontwana. Patrick Umkontwana will be giving his evidence in Xhosa.

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: (sworn states)

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson I wish it be put on record that the statement by the applicant before you is similar in contents in the statement of the previous applicant and therefore I do not intend to let him repeat what was repeated by the first applicant.
	Patrick, the application before this Committee for amnesty relates to the act of murder and attempted murder on the 31st of October 1990. Murder, it's the death of Nzimeni and where Charles Mhlambiso was almost killed.  What the Committee would like to know from you is the actual role that you played.  Did you kill Nzimeni?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I will start by saying, on the 31st of October 1990, it was in the morning, we went out as comrades going to look for Nzimeni and them.  That was the day after the 30th in 1990.  I can mention comrade Frans Masike, Albie Fasie, Shepherd Charlie, Solomon Mangew, Cqemisiswe  Llandwa, Mishak Popane, Andrew Muloto and others. When we arrived at the taxi rank we were looking for a taxi that was transporting Nzimeni and his group.  We got to the driver, it was a Combi belonging to Mr Makasi, W E Makasi.

CHAIRPERSON: I think some of this evidence has already been led.  I think you must ask him not whether he murdered, whether he took part in the murder of the deceased, and ask him how or what was his part.