Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr van Vuuren, a question was put to you which was actually done by way of a statement, I can't remember the English, but the question dealt with the strangling or the throttling, and in Afrikaans had the purport of, did you strangle him to give expression to your feeling of pleasure, if I could put it like that, a feeling of pleasure which you would have obtained from strangling this man, did you obtain any pleasure out of this?

UNKNOWN: No I did not derive any pleasure from killing anybody, at that stage we believed that we were doing it for our country and for our people.  We never received any money or anything for this type of thing.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Was there any form of killing which afforded you more pleasure or was more acceptable to you than any other method?

UNKNOWN: No it's not nice to kill people.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you derive any benefit from the death of this person?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I mean yourself?

UNKNOWN: Not at all.
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JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr du Plessis, I don't know if this will make a lot of difference but the words which came from one of my colleagues, the actual words were, lust for torture.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes that's why I'm asking these questions Mr Chairman.  I might have misunderstood the connotation thereto but I'm just making a hundred percent sure.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What I'm trying to say, the question was, the word used was not pleasure, but lust.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes.  Warrant Officer van Vuuren, in the light of this, I can't remember the exact words, but it was put to you that you did what you did due to a lust for torture.  In other words, a desire to interrogate people or to torture people, you had a desire to torture people.  Can you say to the Committee, did you have a personal desire to torture people the whole time?

UNKNOWN: No I did not have a personal desire to torture people.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Why was it done?

UNKNOWN: It was done to extract information from the people and we had already decided to eliminate him.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And in this case, did you pursue a political objective?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, we did have a political motive.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And in other cases?

UNKNOWN: In all the cases we had a political motive.  We were the security police, we only dealt with political activists or people, we didn't work with criminals.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Warrant Officer van Vuuren you testified that information was supplied regarding the names you CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/W CAPE
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received from Sefolo, can you remember whether a file was opened for that specific person, whether the file was in existence on that person directly after Sefolo's death?

UNKNOWN: There would definitely have been a file on him if there had not been one already.

ADV DU PLESSIS: How long after Sefolo's death did you act against this person?

UNKNOWN: I can't remember.  It could have been a year or six months.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is it possible that information would have been kept on file regarding this person?

UNKNOWN: Yes there would definitely have been information on this person on file.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you remember whether you saw such a file or not, went through such a file?

UNKNOWN: Can't remember.  We worked with many files.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

HASSAN MALL: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman may I call Captain Hechter.

JUDGE WILSON: While he's going to the seat can I ask you something Mr du Plessis?  Would it be possible do you think, for you or perhaps for your attorney to prepare a list of your clients' ranks and dates, you understand what I mean? What rank they held in what years?

ADV DU PLESSIS: A comparative list?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes because I think in the beginning of each application they deal with that but I will endeavour to give you a comparative list.
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JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: There might be one problem and that is that Brigadier Cronje was a bit uncertain about certain dates and he couldn't find his file to verify it, but I will do it as far as possible.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you very much.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I will include that in the heads of argument, yes Mr Chairman.

JACQUES HECHTER: (s.u.o.)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter the incident is on page 157, you say in your application that you can't remember anything of the incident.  You now listened to the testimony of Mr van Vuuren, what is your approach thereto?

JACQUES HECHTER: As I have already told this Commission, I trust Mr van Vuuren completely, if he says I gave him the order, I accept it.  I have no reason and he has no reason to tell any lies before this Commission.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you agree, he verified page 160 to 166 regarding the political background?

JACQUES HECHTER: Yes that's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Page 167 paragraph 11(a) concerning, can you just read that to the Committee?

JACQUES HECHTER: It was in the exercise of the commands I received from van Vuuren and Cronje regarding the state of emergency and general unrest.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

HASSAN MALL: Just give me again the pages, the last pages.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I beg your pardon, the political motive is from page 160 to 166 and then the order is page 167.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.
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ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman my attorney draws my attention to the fact that the translation referred to an order by van Vuuren which is clearly incorrect, it should be an order by Brigadier Cronje and Brigadier Victor.  I'm just drawing that to your attention.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  Mr Mpshe, are there any questions that you wish to put?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just one question.  On page 158 of the application you state in the last paragraph,
"He was being throttled with a wire around his neck to get information from him".
do you remember having done this?

JACQUES HECHTER: No, not at all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How do you put it that you did throttle him with a wire, how did you put it in the application?

JACQUES HECHTER: Mr Chair I can't remember this incident at all.  During our consultations at our attorneys' offices, this incident was told to me by Mr van Vuuren. Because of the long time span, I can't remember it at all but I am willing to accept his word, if he says I did it.  I hear that he says himself that he can't remember exactly who did it, but I am willing to accept that since I had been the senior person, I did it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So the Committee's sitting here with two applicants here on an incident they both cannot recall?

JACQUES HECHTER: The fact of the matter is that he was killed and I accept the responsibility for it.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

JUDGE MGOEPE: I think with regard to this aspect, what Mr Mpshe is trying to bring to your attention is that Mr van Vuuren told us earlier on that even though he says
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categorically in his application that he was the one who tied the wire around the neck, he told us that after discussing this aspect of the matter with you, no I'm sorry, I'm incorrect, he told us that after saying that he, despite the fact that his application, he said that you tied the wire around the neck of this person.  He told us that after a discussion of this particular aspect he could well have done it himself.

JACQUES HECHTER: It is possible that he could have done it or I could have done it, it might be possible where he could have questioned this person thoroughly, I can't remember this incident at all. I can't remember that we picked him up.  This incident is for me as if it never happened but I am willing to accept Warrant Officer van Vuuren's word.