Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

MR PHOSA: No, I'm still struggling with my microphone which just adds up to my problems, sorry.  I will leave that aspect to arguments, quite clearly I'm having a battle not only against him.
	Now back to the other factors, why did Mr du Plessis pick you up as the person to assist them in this terrible action?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I don't know, I don't know what his considerations were.

MR PHOSA: Was he aware, as far as you know of any impropriety in your conduct before that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, just to ease the task of the Commission, could I explain what happened during those times when one was transferred to security?  You did not apply to be transferred to that branch you were recruited, a selection was done and I don't know why Mr du Plessis chose me - what his objectives were.

MR PHOSA: And when he chose you, you were quite willing to agree to be party to the elimination?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I did Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Now I know you've given the stages, we've dealt with this and with others as well but allow me just to go through it quickly.  Now, as far as your problems were concerned there was the problem of amongst others, the smallness of personnel, in other words there were not many enough policemen in your department - in your branch, isn't it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think that was so and also in general in the whole of the police force this applied Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Was the question of the number - the small number of policemen, something that could physically be attended to if the powers that be understood the urgency?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't really understand the question, could you please just repeat what you had said Mr Phosa?

MR PHOSA: Assuming a request was made - I think yours is the same as mine, if a request was made to the powers that be to please increase as a matter of urgency, the number of security policemen or policemen generally in that area, would that be a relevant factor in trying to solve the problem?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It could have been the case Mr Chairperson, it could be - I don't know.

MR PHOSA: Of course that wasn't done?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, I don't know either - I was not in command.

MR PHOSA: The possibility exists therefore that with a greater number of policemen it might have been possible to contain the activities of these people in the Eastern Cape and it would be better than it was happening then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is possible, I don't know Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Also if - especially after his return from this hospital, Mr Mthimkhulu had been house arrested, that too might have had an effect?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, is this now the restriction of the person to house arrest, is that the way I've got to understand the question?

ADV DE JAGER: I think that's correct, yes.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, according to my personal experience, it was a problem, it would still have been a problem under the present circumstances.  I know specifically in the case Mr Barney Pityana - Doctor Barney Pityana sorry, where all the necessary steps were taken and it had no effect.  I also think of the late Steve Biko where he did not pay any attention whatsoever to the restriction. 	And it was difficult for me but I'm talking from personal experience and the problems that I experienced on ground level in dealing with this type of thing and physically monitoring it.

ADV SANDI: Did that have anything or something to do with the shortage of the number of members of the police force?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, it was so because then one had to delegate a large number of people just to keep such a person under observation.  And a further problem that could stem from this would be that the colleague who had to go and do duty there could be attacked.   We were in an unrest situation and the circumstances were such.

ADV SANDI: In that way you had a serious problem of shortage of the police?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was so, yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you give any thought to the idea of making a recommendation to your superiors that there should be an increase in the number of members of the police.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think Mr Chairperson, there were many requests from my commanders but I did not do so personally and where would we be able to find people to fulfil this task?  I don't think at that stage there were any people who wished to join the police, particularly not the security branch because they were regarded as collaborators of the White regime.
	So you have to look at the circumstances that created the problems, these were all factors that created problems in the policing function of the police.

MR PHOSA: Don't over-simplify that problem - that situation, you know that even today the problem of the shortage of police still exists.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR PHOSA: But when a certain area, a given area is in need of a greater proportion, a number of policemen, people are - security police or army and others, are sent to that area.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson, but now there's a further factor that occurs.  That person doesn't know the suspect, he doesn't know the circumstances, how long will it take for such a person to get into things?  There's an unnecessary waste of time so there are many factors that one has to take into consideration.  If I have to consider the things now - at that stage I didn't even think of those.

ADV DE JAGER: If you consider them now, how could you say we could resolve the position in KwaZulu Natal?  Would it serve a purpose to send in hundreds of police and the defence force - under the present circumstances?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't think so Mr Chairperson, because they don't know the circumstances, they're not familiar with what is going on.  It doesn't help to transfer people there because it will remain a problem Mr Chairperson.  That's the way I see it.

ADV SANDI: Does that mean ...[intervention]

MR PHOSA: I get worried Mr Nieuwoudt - there's too much generalisation about a serious matter because you know for a fact - not from me, even from public statements, from the survivors own reports, the unrest situation subsided substantially in Natal - in KwaZulu Natal through the sending of security forces from other areas.  Now don't you know that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It may be so but I think that these things have to be resolved on political level because we must not get trapped in the same process where the police have the task again to act in a military manner.  This is something for the politicians to resolve, the police must not be involved as in the present circumstances where I was involved during those times and under those circumstances and I think that is the main difference.   If we look at the present times, we cannot really compare situations because they are so different.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment now till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION 26 SEPTEMBER 1997

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: It is now the 26th of September, we are continuing with the hearing and the delay in starting this morning is due to members of the Committee.

ADV DE JAGER: It was my fault, I took the wrong off-ramps and I'm apologising for keeping you and starting late.

CHAIRPERSON: It shocked me that in the light of the references to the various summonses that were issued on behalf of Mr Mthimkhulu, that it would be desirable for us to have copies of those if they are available.  I gather that those representing the victims do not have a copy but I will arrange to get a copy from the Supreme - the High Court from where I take it, they  were issued unless anybody happens to have copies available at the moment.