Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: This happened many years ago and the applicant and others were charged on a number of counts and most probably they won't even know the names of the individual houses.  What you could do is to look at page 61, you will see a complete indictment.

MS THABETHE: I have it with me, of all the people that were involved.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The counts and the victims in each count.  Maybe you should discuss it with him along those lines.  In all probability he is applying for amnesty in respect of those specific counts set out in the indictment.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Ms Thabethe, do they have copies of the documents that they wrote to the Commission?

MS THABETHE: I am not aware.  I will find out from them.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn to enable you to sort this out.  You will call us in as soon as you are read.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
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MS THABETHE	181	ADDRESS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: What have you to say to us?

MS THABETHE: Members of the Committee, I have spoken to the applicants and they don't have legal representation.  After discussing with them and after finding out that they do not have the relevant documents to represent themselves, we decided that it is going to be in their best interest to postpone the matter.
	I have gone further to speak to Mr Hlengwe, who is supposedly their attorney, to find out if the problem is the time today that he can't appear for them or he won't be appearing for them in any case and he said to me the problem is he cannot appear today.  He can try tomorrow or on Friday.  So I want to put forward to the Committee, if it is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he has consulted with his clients and whether he has prepared himself to appear for them?

MS THABETHE: As far as I know he hasn't consulted with his clients nor has he got documentation to be ready for them today.  But what he says to me is he can get the relevant documents and he can represent them tomorrow or on Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Speaking for myself, I think it will be a futile exercise to expect the attorney to come the next day or the day after without having had any consultation with his clients without any concept of the enormity of the matter and the importance of it for him to be adequately prepared so that they can have their case sufficiently well presented.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he appear for them at the trial.  Has he dealt with them before?
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MS THABETHE: /...
MS THABETHE	182	ADDRESS

MS THABETHE: Can I ask the question to them directly?

JUDGE WILSON: Did Mr Hlengwe, your attorney, was he your attorney during the trial?

ANSWER: No, we were not represented by him.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was representing you?

ANSWER: It was Blomkampf.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you try to ask Blomkampf to appear on your behalf?

ANSWER: No, we did not request him because he is from the Legal Aid Centre.  We thought that the attorney of the organisation would represent us as we had already contacted him.

MS THABETHE: Members of the Committee, one more concern that was raised by the applicants to me is the fact that if they miss this opportunity they don't know when they are going to get an opportunity to appear in front of the Committee.  I stressed that it is not going to be in their best interest to appear without legal representation.

ADV DE JAGER: On our present schedule, is there a date set down already for Kwa-Zulu/Natal?

MS THABETHE: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I take this opportunity to address you, Mr Zuma and Mr Gumbi, to just explain to you that this opportunity that you have been given today is a very important opportunity, but that does not mean that if your matter is not dealt with today and is postponed, you will not be able to get another chance before this Commission.  It is very important that you be made aware that the legal requirements that you must meet to show that your deeds or your transgressions are with regard to political activity or your past political activity.  So if your legal
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MS KHAMPEPE	183	ADDRESS
representative is not present who will be able to help you in rendering your testimony and telling this Committee with regard to those political activities, and that the legal requirements that govern this Committee should be met fully or should be dealt with extensively.  That this opportunity
is for real and you should not waste it. 
	When you come before this Committee you see how many papers or how much documentation we have in front of us and this documentation as you are sitting there you must also have it.  You will not be able to relate to this committee with regard to the offences if you do not have the necessary documentation.  Even your attorney, if you do get one, should be furnished with the necessary documentation and be able to conduct a consultation with you so that he can be able to represent you fruitfully.  So you must not be in a hurry to go on with the matter without legal representation.  We realise that it would not be in your best interests for us to do so. We hope that whatever I have explained to you is clear.

ANSWER: Yes, it is clear.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is there anything else that you want to say?

ANSWER: There is nothing that we want to say.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you agree that Ms Thabethe's advice is quite sound that the matter should be postponed?

ANSWER: Yes, we do.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So that if the matter is postponed there should be some efforts that you get legal representation, Mr Hlengwe, or whoever is going to appear on your behalf, will be able to be notified and you will also be notified on a date that is going to be set for the hearing.

ANSWER: Yes, we would appreciate that.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
184

CHAIRPERSON: The matter will be adjourned for the very, very sound and good reasons that have been given to you.  Every effort will be made to find a suitable date without too much delay though it is not possible today for me to tell you when that is going to be.  You will be given adequate notice of it and steps will be taken to ensure that you get legal assistance.
	Your matter is accordingly adjourned.  
	Ms Thabethe, what about the other interested parties who are present or who may be present here, namely dependents, relatives or victims.  Are you aware of whether any of them are present?

MS THABETHE: Members of the Committee, they have been present from yesterday because this matter was supposed to be heard yesterday.  I want to take this opportunity to apologise to them for wasting basically their time yesterday and today, but it is something that we could not foresee.  As they have heard for themselves that the applicants were thinking that somebody is going to come on their behalf, but it transpired today that this person is not here.
	So I would just like to apologise to them sincerely and inform them that we will let them know of the next date in time and we will pay all the costs for the travelling for today.

CHAIRPERSON: Must we ensure that you have their names and the addresses to which the notice of the future hearing is sent?  We must make absolutely sure that we have that information.

MS THABETHE: We do have that information.

CHAIRPERSON: You may stand down.  Thank you very much.

MS THABETHE: The next matter is Hlophe on the roll, but Members of the Committee I think we have the same problem
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MS THABETHE	185	ADDRESS
as today.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Hlophe here?

MS THABETHE: Mr Hlophe is here.  Should we call him in?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Has he been shown the letter?

MS THABETHE: I have shown him the letter.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he aware of it?