Special Hearings — Legal Hearings — 1997-10-27

JUSTICE PHOSA: Thank you, Madam Chair and comrades at large. Before we commence, I just want to make a few remarks. One concerns our apology for not having been able to produce a written address. Not as we did not want to, steps have been taken, but for reasons that cannot be explained here, but I've indicated elsewhere, we're not able to produce that so we had to come afresh. Consequently reluctantly as I was to personally represent, I've had to be roped in again to come and do something, because really we now want people who've been there longer and suffered longer and who can remember without any written documents.
 Secondly, I personally did not have the advantage of listening to the NADEL presentation, which I honestly think would have been very useful. So what I imagine from what I've seen in the past, that we are going to coincide quite a bit and it's that kind of repetition which can't be helped.
 Just thirdly, I had not want - I did not want to include my personal experiences here, because I just thought it would be unfair to the rest of the members of the BLA, because almost all of us have experiences and if I gave mine that's so long. But having listened to some of the aspects being mentioned, I would be obliged at some stage to have mention one or two, but I don't intend to present a personal account here.
 We have dealt with this problem on the basis that there are really three faces of it, namely just briefly the question of the legislation that we're dealing with at the time - I'm not going to quote any laws, I'm just mentioning the division, the legal profession, the judiciary and the role of Black lawyers generally, following the question of how to deal with the problems.
 Briefly about legislation one notes that it is a fact that this whole debacle happened in the background of very oppressive laws which could as some bodies have suggested, be the reason for their inactivity or less intervention than they should have done. On the other hand the very repressive nature of the laws called for more vigilance we suggest than was exhibited in most instances.
 That legislation, apart from the obvious things, also had the fact ultimately of chasing Black lawyers, more particularly Africans out of the city areas, which is where the role of the Law Societies and it's Legal Profession generally comes up to be tested.
 I start with the Legal Profession or we start with the Legal Profession we mention the obvious that it was - as it was said; male and White dominantly, but the emphasis is that only ten percent at - when people began counting, those who did, there are only ten percent of Black lawyers in the entire country. At one stage of course I'm sure it was not worth counting at all. Why I mention - we mention, we emphasise this is that we feel that it ought to concern anyone - it ought to concern anyone who cares at all about our history or about our general society, that in a society where as there are so many Black people at the best of times there are only ten percent who are lawyers. It should therefore produce a general observable tendency on the part of lawyers to try and deal with it. Now, this we say at no times has been found an attempt on the part of the organised society profession to consciously struggle to bring this to an end. This permeates right up to the question of the representivity of the judiciary. This ten percent affects everything else and we think that it is a factor which should be very paramount when we consider the background.
 Obviously then, maybe because of that, or maybe because it would have happened anyway, the Law Societies and the Bar Councils are governed by White lawyers.
 I must say from the outside, much as we are being - talking for myself - it is with regret that I have to keep saying White and Black, but it does exist. So normally I write I say "Black" in quotes and "White" in quotes because I don't believe that there are only White people or only Black people, but it is a political term that we refer to and perhaps I could just say I personally am unhappy about our going further and talking of people of colour. I don't understand what that means, because we talk of people of colour when we all supposed to be in "coloured". Now whose colour is which? I just think it should disappear. We can do without people of colour.
 To continue; Now of necessity because of the fact that the majority of the lawyers that governed the profession are White, beyond their control really they are obliged to reflect the views that they as young children, White children in White society, grew up with (...indistinct) to the extent that they have learnt, but they start with an unavoidable limitation, that of growing in a society, not for their own fault, because Government has put us differently, all of us. Obviously we're too, Black people, who have certain deficiencies, but when it comes to the need to change society in view of the kind of laws that we deliberately placed - put in place to distort society, you are more likely to find that a White person is more likely to find himself or herself affected by that because the majority of those who were removed from society, are Black people. Majorities they were.
 So it therefore becomes quite obvious when we deal with this illegal system that you are likely at the best of times to find more White lawyers, many as they are, in a position to bring about the necessary change in order to cater for all people. It has been said a few times and it must be understood, we say the same, that there are a handful of very powerful White lawyers who've done a lot and who still do a lot, because of necessity they were committed and they're therefore committed a colour suicide so you could say and have made contributions. But even they would do much better with the assistance of Black lawyers. 
 Now, the Law Society - I just want to give some examples, because many have been mentioned, but I just want to mention some of them to highlight even more than it had been done before. An indication of what the White Law Societies have done and the Advocate's Councils, Bar Council. The Law Societies, for instance, used the Fidelity Fund. Now, in this regard I may need some correction, but at a time when I was an attorney in Durban, there was an attempt to use funds, Fidelity Funds to fund those attorneys who have been conscripted to the Border to go and fight those wars which clearly to the knowledge of everybody were political wars. There was no mistake. Everybody would have known that those laws - those wars then were racial wars, but the Law Society of Natal - I don't know if it succeeded - it was striving to get those funds to go and look after the firms of those attorneys who had gone over there. Very insensitive.
 The advocate sector was equally insensitive in respects already mentioned, but also one in another sense that I would like to mention. After Jimmy Kruger had done what they had done to Biko and had been left cold, the law - the Bar Council or the Law Society - Society of Advocates in Durban invited him to come and address us, knowing well that there's Black lawyers as well. You could say to their credit or to ours, they eventually stopped him at the last moment because of our protest. But the mere fact that we had to go through that, is an indication of the insensitivity and I'm not talking about donkey years ago. I'm talking about years when I was what I am. So many of the advocates who are in Natal now, senior advocates, were there. They had no difficulty with inviting Kruger.
 The Attorneys' profession was silent when African lawyers were being legislated out of the cities. I've heard the accounts being given here, but they don't take away the point that by large nothing was done. In Durban of course there was intervention when it comes to the Bar. The Bar did take steps to facilitate the passports system. I wouldn't want to go so far as to condemn them for having done that. I do not know what my colleagues will say. I would not believe that a person had done something to try and improve the situation I should condemn him or her for that. I can condemn them for not going further. So as far as I am concerned that was a very useful step, because everyone was doing their best.
 The White legal profession did not intervene when Black lawyers and litigants were being discriminated against inside courts, who were in courts practising with colleagues that we lived together, come to court, but in court the White clients would be only on one side and the Black ones on the other side.
 In Durban there was a deliberate effort to deal with it in such a way that you already found yourself in some way on the wrong side without applying your mind to it. They didn't do that. In fact, it was then that the rudiments of the present BLA and NADEL emerged. It is then that the BLA as it was then Transvaal was formed differently from the other structures, not the BLA I'm in now, the original, when the DLA that is the Durban, later to be called Democratic Law Association was formed in Durban and other structures like that. This is now before NADEL came into being, just to give you the full picture about that.
 NADEL became ultimately an attempt to put all these together to bring about a more national and undivided democratic Law Association, but all this is thanks to the attitude or the indifference of the profession to matters that affected us directly.
 Now, apart from their doing nothing about the Peche's(?) case, Peche's case is under I'm going to mention later, the Peche's case, the Law Societies were all over the country going out of their way to apply for the striking off of Black lawyers on political grounds. Now, we all know those cases. The incorporated Law Society of Transvaal there is Mandela. Matthews versus Cape Law Society. It's a pity I was in no position to ask questions whilst this presentation was being done, but I do know that the Matthews v Cape Law Societies is 1956 and I would have liked to know what is being said about that, but it is there on record., 1956 (1) (SA) 807C. (...indistinct) law in Natal and this is the 84 (SA). These are just some of the examples of those cases. Now, obviously the Orange Free State can claim that it did not apply because it made sure that the problem was never allowed to exist. They just simply didn't have Black lawyers.
 Now, both sectors, that is advocates and attorneys had qualifying examinations, they still do. Historically one should say that of the advocates came later. Now, these examinations, to the knowledge of both sectors have had the effect, whatever the intention was, of cutting down the free entry of Black lawyers into the profession. They just had a way of failing them, somehow, because we are told this they're not ready. But Black lawyers just see these examinations and fail them and they don't enter the profession. Now, the perception has been put across to the Law Societies and the Bar Council, I personally (...indistinct) to many of them - and we have said, let's find a way of letting Black lawyers have a share in the governance of the profession so that we can jointly look into these laws and into these examinations for example which you say are not rigged and jointly see what it is the problem there is with them that causes Black lawyers to fail them so much. Then we can jointly find a way of making them pass them, if not scrap those exams and change the exams. We have not been successful in that regard and it is insensitivity to say well I know, I know this is objective and it does not have me fail, because when they never say so really it amounts to that. If you don't mind then you'd ignore the point we started with that niggling ten percent or whatever of all your Black lawyers, that has to be attended to at all times.
 We must observe here that the case for the necessity of a qualifying examination for the Bar is weakened by the consideration that advocates, the advocates who introduced the examination did not themselves write it. No-one says these advocates who did not write the examination, I'm one of them, but I'm not referring to me I'm referring to the White colleagues, no-one says and the judges say that they're any the weaker for not having gone through the examination.
 So, when an examination is a problem, the (...indistinct) deal with it cannot be explained on the basis that they're going to destroy the profession because the profession didn't die without examination before that. So, the reluctance to deal with it - that's the question; is it just the examination, is it not found a useful method of keeping us away?
 This of course goes for all eminent seniors and judges, they never went through it. Moreover the other side of the coin is that we have not perceived a brand of new advocates who look really intelligent and fire eating, because they've gone through such examination. It is not as if they could say; oh now I can see this examination ...(tape ends)
...practical training much as doctors do, not to say that professors - the lecturers must do that, but matters have been discussed and can be discussed. We are fighting a sole war in this, because it appears, notwithstanding what the ALS said here, it's not attending to the problem of that small percentage of Black lawyers and that is unacceptable to us.
 So, no matter how many people apologise as we see the position, you can't come here just for apologies and therefore promises to do things. It is the present conduct that must indicate signs that bring change. We really have no hope, especially having gone through the transformation process - effort that we've gone through. I may - if I don't mention it later others will mention it.
 The Black Law Association's efforts together with NADEL and gradually joined by the universities, as I've said - sorry, I've mentioned this - to try and keep lawyers out of the streets has not gained the support that it could have gained. There is no effort by both sectors to accelerate growth in the number of Black lawyers and to stop the anomaly of that small majority. Notwithstanding the constitutional change, that's another aspect, now, this is an aspect I know will cause a lot of reaction on the part of many people we do tend to go ahead of people in thinking, notwithstanding the constitutional change in the country's approach to punishment which is reflected in the elimination of the death penalty. Now it doesn't matter what one's views are on that now, the point of matter is death penalty has been removed and the amnesty for the morally based politically murderers who are given amnesty, or who may get amnesty if they qualify in the way stated, notwithstanding all that, there is no similar approach with regards to punishing the delinquent lawyers. We - now this had not been discussed by BLA as a whole that there's a move in BLA to say, really, let's reconsider whether we do what to strike just to go on striking everybody, you know it's very easy to strike off as a lawyer. It's very easy to be struck off. We do want people to be punished, but may we not consider in the present mould whether striking off is the only method. As it turns out for Black lawyers of course, it reduces even the few that there were. Most of the time they are the ones who are vulnerable to this form of approach. These are just some of the examples, many have been mentioned by others.
 The judiciary; when it is taken into account that a judge of today is but an advocate of yesterday it would be naive of us to expect that the judiciary could somehow miraculously learn to become human and to conduct itself in a morally acceptable way. Now, I know there are exceptions, but what the advocate is, is what he's going to be as a judge. In fact the painful thing, my observation and that of others is that even advocates who were really good become nasty animals when they become judges. They just become rude and anything, I don't know what it is they get to there, I haven't acted yet, but I don't understand. They really become nasty. Now, this concerns the Black lawyers. We are - we think that the courts, whatever they think of themselves, should be exemplary to human behaviour. It is very sad when you find that judges enjoy, really excited about worrying counsel. Poor junior counsel are scared to go to court because the judge is a terror and who apparently talks about the tea times, tea time, or perhaps ...(indistinct) I don't know his family but it's just inappropriate. It's just undignified and apart from dignity, it does affect justice. The number of cases that get postponed because a certain judge is sitting or gets settled adversely to the clients rights, because so and so judge either he doesn't like the case or doesn't like or won't like the counsel concerned or there's fear that he's rude to everybody. Now, that's unacceptable. Judges are known for justice, not for their personal views and we haven't seen this during the case of judges. And when we discuss with counsel, I've done it, it becomes a big joke at (indistinct). Nobody says, hey, let's do something about it, because, I understand now why, because later when they become judges, they do exactly the same. We can't accept that.
 Now, we understand that perhaps we should not be naive as I said that judges come from not just a White background, but they also come as it so happens from the higher classes of society. Now, we know that the laws anyway are made to cater mainly for the interest of White people - sorry, of the higher classes. It is true that our higher classes have not had been able to benefit, because of the emphasise on Blacks, an accidental thing, but I'm sure in no time Black lawyers will soon have benefit from this class structure. But the laws, I mentioned this because yesterday there was mention by one of the speakers that the judges are being unfairly criticised for a small fraction of their field, that is political cases, it is not true. They have been involved in lots of civil cases that were handled in a manner that was reflective of their background, either White or simply because they come from high society. 
 Now, I don't want to spend your time. I'm aware that you people know these aspects, but just quickly to save time, I'm referring here to the trend that develop up to the Trobs(?) case. Just briefly, the question whether or not one can have a right of action against an administrative action that is taken without usual warning or notice, simply because one does not have a right, even though one is adversely affected. Now, that was a big problem. Now, you can't say that's unimportant. It is not just political. It affects so many people, because as it turns out, by virtue of the society we live in, most of what would have called the right of Black people, are not viewed as rights. My rights to stay with my wife and remain with her in Durban and not be transferred to Maputo or whatever it is, without my permission, is not a right. So such people who were just transferred willy-nilly because those were not rights until Trobs case came into being. I'm summing it up for those who don't understand the aspect.
 Now, that was a long thing. Just before that another judge who is presently of the AD, perhaps the judges involved in fairness to them, the one who was involved in Trob, is the outgoing (...indistinct) Chief Justice Corbett. He's the one that's been (...indistinct) about this change.
It just required him and others with him to change it. They changed it. It could have been changed any time, because directly before that it wasn't changed in a matter in which Justice Hefer was involved. They put laws, they put excuses. It is documented they couldn't do it. It was done, changed by others. Now, all those are not political cases directly. 
 Now, perhaps when I'm talking about rights, you might just reflect it's not part of this problem directly, but it is relevant. You know the - we know that there's a problem about definition of rights. It always amazes me that my rights to eat, my rights to add a room, my rights to live generally is not a first generation right. I'd understand and I would have that the first generation rights must be the ones that makes you survive. But the definitions are given by those who have the right to decide what's right and wrong. 
 Now, the history of the right to fair trial needs to be mentioned briefly. If I didn't mention it before, I should say that and I did say it. The number of judges - there are a number of judges who have, in spite of being "White" been
very exemplary, one of these here is Judge Didcott, Didcott J. Now, there - in what was called the Kanyile Rule he brought about the need, the need to give legal aid as a matter of right to indigent persons. It was called the Kanyile Rule. That was scuttled out of the window of course very subtly, because it was said, well no, no, no, we're not saying it shouldn't happen, but technicalities were used. Now, in the course of mentioning this I must mention the inconsistency of judges. Whilst I've just praised Corbett, J for what he did in the other matter, in this case Corbett, J is one who scuttled it out. Now, it just goes to show that you can't just have a willy-nilly (...indistinct) of judges. There has to be a pattern. There had to be some pattern in which I can determine if the law is so-and-so I get X-Y results. There can be allowed there will be of course each case will have it's particular factors, but there must be some way in which if I get up at home and I'm charged I know, look this being AYZ the result will be so-and-so, not depending entirely on who the judge is, but there you are. 
 In this matter, in the case of S versus Rudman and others - for those who want to record it - S Mtwana 1992 (1) (SA) 343 (AD), they said the following - he referred to the idea of what was suggested by Mr Justice Didcott -
"... as an ideal which under the present circumstances is not capable of attainment."
 In other words the rights of the accused was not defined in terms of its need, but in terms of whether or not the Government can have the money. They didn't say ja, okay, let's do it. They just said, no, we throw it out. It can't be done. Nicholaas J.A. said; 
"The court has no power to issue amenamus on the Government to provide legal aid and it should not adopt a rule, the tenets of which would oblige the Government to do so".
 I'm timing myself, I'm looking at the watch, Madam.
 Now, does anyone really want to be told what the majority of South Africans, properly informed, would have said if they're asked whether the Government should be obliged to provide legal aid. They obviously would have said, oh yes, oh yes, because the majority of people are poor and they would say where it is obviously a case of poverty and it is needed, the Government should be asked to do so. There can be debates about that. 
 Now, we do not want the South African - we do not approve of the situation where it appears that justice in South Africa is a hit-and-miss affair. We want some propriety, some order, some credibility as to what to expect in a court of law.
 Now, the role of judges in political cases has been discussed and I don't want to spend too much time on that, because I think that's what most - almost everyone mentioned, but I do think that I should mention and I know this also is well known, I should also just refer to Peaches case and just quote, because it may well be that not everybody understands. This now falls in 1960. I'm within parameters of the mandate here. Now, Mr Peaches perhaps I should just mention that he later was to become the first director of the (...indistinct) and he then was the paid attorney to Mr Mandela and Mr Tambo. He went to court and sat on a chair that was destined for Whites only and he was convicted after some argument with himself and the magistrate. If you read it you'll find that he really wasn't arguing he was saying, yes, but I want to understand why this must happen. Then he said, look I convict you.
He was - his application, his application was dismissed by the supreme court and the Appellate Division confirmed that and it remains until the - someone goes to court, it remains a law in this country.
 Now, the painful things about that is that a judge, Stan C.J. and that's another important thing about it, it was Stan C.J., said this amongst others.
"A magistrate like other judicial functionaries is in control of his courtroom and of the proceedings therein".
Then he went on to show why it was appropriate of him to do that.
 Then he says -
The magistrate informed him that his...."
it's important, the magistrate's court, that is the room, that he wanted him to sit - oh sorry - that it was his that his magistrate's court, that he wanted him to sit there.
 You see now it's no longer a question of what the law is, I want you to sit there and that he was not prepared to argue with him about it. Of course they convicted him.
 Now, in the course of this it appears that Mr Peche did indicate what he was going to ask, he was going to ask if this is not going to be an unfair trial and the magistrate said, such statement to the magistrate would clearly have been implied that the accused would not have had a fair trial, but he says after saying a lot of things, he says, no, in this case the law did not insist that he should have sat there, but it was not in keeping with the spirit of the law. Then he says - 
"It is true that the insulting statement which he intended to make to the effect that the magistrate would not give the accused a fair trial, if defended by him, he did not make, but that does not alter the fact of the fact that in spite of repeated warnings, he wilfully disregarded the order."
 What I'm emphasising there is that although a judge had said had he made that statement, it would have indicated the probability of an unfair trial. He still calls it, says it would have been an insult to the magistrate. Now, that is sort of thinking that judges use and they can find any way possible to get round giving a proper judgment and they are masters when it comes to that.
 Now the role of Black lawyers - sorry, I have already indicated what the position of the judges is - can I just say quickly, the fact that judges are not here, I don't think we should for explanations. We in BLA are not surprised. In the same way that particularly the Bar believes that it is a private body that brooks no interference by the Government, the judges even more so believe that they are a special brand. They cannot be called upon to discuss with us who are we. We are not as important as the judges are. The surprising thing, and this I need an explanation from somebody somehow, is that even the Black judges in there - I know that a judge Pius Langa has given his private thing, I would have thought they would have walked out there and said, we will go. What could they have done to them? I can't imagine that they sit there and allow themselves to be judged by us together with the judges whom we do expect to be disobedient anyway. The judges, Black judges haven't come here. I am amazed that they had done so. 
 I know, it was said yesterday, the method that we appoint judges, we can't insist that it be our way. I know I can't accept that, because judges are meant - perhaps this is the fault of the JSC - an ideal method of appointing judges should ensure that we get judges who are going to produce the spirit of the constitution as we have it now or the general views of humanity, and if they don't pass that standard they ought not to be brought in. We ought to have no difficulty then in saying, I'm sure judge so-and-so won't do so-and-so. It only can show that the JSC, even as an improved method, has not assured us the kind of judges we should have, of judges we should have, maybe the answer is we should now deal with it as well. 
 But before we do so, the role of Black lawyers is not one that can be said to have been perfect. I don't quite agree with the suggestion by Prof Lewis that all lawyers, all lawyers are involved. If it's in the same way that I say all judges, yes, because they're individuals, but say all lawyers I think my wife would kill me is she heard that at times when I said I was dying for, because I was not doing anything, many Black lawyers really can stand out there and be counted and many so-called White lawyers, the Bizos' there, have done their part. So, to come back to Black lawyers, you can't say that all lawyers have done nothing. I don't want even to try - I don't know what the TRC would do to me, but I simply say I would not be one of those to apologise for anything I've done in the past because we've done all that we could do.
 Now, but Black lawyers as a whole, in a way that you can understand, coming from an oppressed society, being victims of the laws more than the White lawyers and seeing our White counterparts doing nothing about it, did turn really to be a let-down. Let's face this. I know many of them now are climbing up and they say that they did that and the other many Black lawyers didn't do what they should have done. I would think that they themselves should come up here and do their apologies, because some of them were actually being counter-productive. I'm not going to name names. I haven't come for that. I'm just stating the history as it was, but one understands why Black lawyers would do that, really by and large, because as I've said there was a problem that if White lawyers could do that, could not stand up and do something, how much more could they?
 But the truth of the matter is when we go forward we are more likely to find - that is my, I surmise that we're more likely to find that even a Black lawyer who was not so constructive during his times as an advocate, an attorney during those times, would definitely be more dependable as a judge once the pressure has been removed, because that background from which he comes, his mother, his parents and everybody else compels him to contribute in a manner that he doesn't have to study. So there really has to be virtue in increasing the judiciary in trying to make the judiciary representative, because even those Black lawyers who were not wonderful on the whole surely should be reliable. Quite apart from the need of course even for just cosmetics are the Black people needed to see a representative judiciary, but I just think that Black lawyers would even at their worst level be a contributory factor.
 So, I do not want to lambaste Black lawyers except to say that much more could have been done. There are problems that we had. The bigger problem is the answers. We do not propose, purport to have an answer to the problem.
 Firstly, the ideal answer would be legislation. I know what people say about the draconian laws. A properly appointed democratic Government ought not to produce laws that should give us problems. Of course I realise that this not only is the case, you know, we don't necessarily now have that kind of Government, but in appropriate situation I think even this present Government, with what we've seen, is in the position to produce the kind of climate, the kind of infrastructure in legislation that any sincere lawyers, Black or White, would not find unacceptable. The only difficulty with that is, is that the same Constitution has been relied upon and the one does not begrudge this it's the right of people, by those who are (...indistinct) they rely on it and they pick up things and they use them and nobody can stop it. That's the Constitution. So, I can't say that we can rely on the Government too much, but I would think that the Government is in duty bound - it's its baby to look for ways of creating laws that make an atmosphere that will not make law foreign to society, because if lawyers (...indistinct) society may as well not exist and if judges can't make law what it should be, then they shouldn't be called, they shouldn't be judges. 
 I say as much I understand the Minister's problems, there is an obligation number one on the ministry, on the Government to bring about laws. If they go about it carefully, there should be no need for them to have to fight anybody.
 The other alternative is one that BLA and NADEL engaged in, but even then we need the assistance of the Government. We are busy with the Law Societies presently because we couldn't start at the Bar Council discussing methods of bringing about change in the legal system, in the legal profession, but unfortunately we have the situation that although the ALS didn't say it here, they truthfully have no control over law. They have no control over what should happen. Their Government is really empty. The people that we should be dealing with that really matter, that govern the law, are the Law Societies. Unfortunately first of all they haven't come here as a whole. Secondly, when we deal with them, they are very adamant, they are not going to allow us equal control. All we're asking for is that we should have equal controls so as to be able to jointly look at the problems and learn from them some of the ones that we don't understand and jointly bring about change and improvement of the Legal profession. That much we are not getting. However I think for us to wait for the Law Commission to bring about change one day, that will be very difficult. I think steps will be taken now and the Government has an obligation to take steps where it appears that one or other of the parties concerned is marking time or abusing the situation to insist that we (...indistinct)
 That, in a nutshell, is our suggestion as to a solution. There are - I do not really think that the TRC itself has an answer and I understand it from the answer that they (...indistinct) well it is a useful exercise because have now got out more ideas as to what happened.
But I don't think the answer would lie here. 
 If I could just, I am aware of time, I want to mention another one or two things that we mentioned. I have already answered the Minister. I said I don't want to talk about myself, but please Malcolm Wallace in a way, I'm one of those who've suffered and I'm just an example of that. When I came to the Bar my admission was objected to because I'd been involved in a fight with a White family and I was found not guilty in respect of some of the others, but guilty in respect of one of them and there was an appeal and I couldn't be admitted until that appeal was settled. On appeal even the judges remarked about why it was necessary to delay me, but for three months I couldn't be admitted. I couldn't therefore earn as a pupil because I wasn't an advocate. These are some of the things, Durban Bar.
 I've had endless, I've been referred to the Bar several times. White judges complained in an affidavit all of them have come to nothing but they've had an effect, because I have perceived an attitude on the part of colleagues. That is the troublesome guy. Nobody can prove it, but I am a troublesome guy. These things go affect, they even effect your Black colleagues. The attitude of the Bar Councils are very, very vital and need to be attended to. They can't be as long as we don't have a share or perhaps in fairness to them I must say, I've written an article in the CONSULTUS of May in which I invited discussion and the Bar Council has agreed to discuss, but not as co- Mr Wallace has said, we made it clear there that we did not want to prescribe issues in advance. We said we should come together and jointly decide what issue to discuss, but now the attitude is that we were just empty, just gave a suggestion which has no substance. We did not want to put in a substance, but in the article when you read it - it is available - it's quite clear we said what the problem is what was unacceptable by and large on the lines that I give here. So we have - we're not negative to discussion. We trust that somebody will have a note of that.
 The JSC I've already said, it should be attended to. I just, for one thing it doesn't have enough number of Black lawyers, of Black people, but it's an example of the problems we had with the Bar Council. We all know, if you read the newspapers, how long it took before the JSC was set up, because the Bar Council would not allow NADEL and BLA to have their own representatives. The attorneys were like that too but they virtually yielded, but the Bar Council didn't. To the end, our representative, Mr Mirani, had to go through an appointee of the Bar. They just don't allow or won't accept that BLA and NADEL are representative, because they're small in number. There are a problem and it's no use trying to pretend otherwise. There are many other problems and as I say, I do not want to make it my personal one, but perhaps if there are questions I can answer them. 
 My colleagues would add if they - there obviously must be a number of things that I haven't mentioned in endeavour to keep to time. Thank you.