Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

MS MTANGA: At the point when you were giving this evidence, why didn't you state that the witch-doctor - when he showed these people the mirror where the six people appeared, why did you not mention that the reasons were given by the witch-doctor that your brother was killed because of his political activities?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: From the evidence that I have tendered here I was answering according to the questions that were being asked.  I was not asked about what you say I was supposed to have said.  It is because maybe you did not ask me about that.

MS MTANGA: To which political organisation - or what was the political affiliation of Mamoghe Phasha?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I do not know in which political organisation Mamoghe Phasha belonged.

MS MTANGA: Did you know - okay, finish your sentence.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I do not have any knowledge about the political party she belonged to, the only thing that I believe is that she was being used to be against the youth.

MS MTANGA: Who was using Mamoghe?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Like I have heard from her that she was used, I heard this from Mamoghe Phasha, that there was a person who was their senior or their leader in witchcraft and he was the person who was using them and that was Maletswai Phasha.

MS MTANGA: What was the political affiliation of Maletswai Phasha?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I do not know in which political organisation did he belong.

MS MTANGA: Your uncle, Abraham Phasha was killed, can you tell us who gave orders for him to be killed?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: What I can explain about the killing of Abraham Phasha, was that people were trying to get help as to how they could find Moses, because they failed to do that, they became angry.  So in other words, his death was actually caused by the anger amongst the youth.

MS MTANGA: Did these youth have a political affiliation?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: They belonged to the ANC.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.  Panel?

MR SIBANYONI: And you say you were the first to throw a stone at him, is that so?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Who said you should do it?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: No-one gave me orders to do that, but I did that because I was angry.

MR SIBANYONI: So you are saying there was no instruction that he should be killed, but because you people were angry you spontaneously started throwing stones at him?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: When you were explaining this word "moloi" and "ngaka", you gave an impression that these are two distinct people, there is a person who is generally known as moloi and then there will be one who is generally known as ngaka.  Did I understand you correctly?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: According to me there is a difference between the two.

MR SIBANYONI: Is moloi not ngaka?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Is moloi not ngaka?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: According to me the witch is not the doctor, there's a difference between the two.

MR SIBANYONI: What's the difference?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: For example, I grew up under the belief that there is witchcraft and witchcraft involved the killing of people, or the abduction of people from their communities under mysterious circumstances and the community would not know how they disappeared or how they died.  They will only find his body - sometimes they will think that the person is actually dead, whereas he is not dead, he's been taken by the witches.  I would say they are using magic.

MR SIBANYONI: These are the things which you heard when you grew up in your community, did you ever see a person who was believed to be dead, but in actual fact he was just abducted and used for other purposes?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I have never seen such a person.

MR SIBANYONI: You said Moses informed you that some people were causing him to be ill, did I understand you correctly?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is what I said.

MR SIBANYONI: How would Moses know which people caused him to be ill?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He told me about those people who did that to him and what made me to believe was after we had asked a certain man to come and help Moses, because he would always complain about pains in his body, so while this man was still helping Moses and this man told us that we should go and find a certain muti at the river so that he could be able to help heal Moses, on our way, myself and Moses, to go and look for that muti, before we could arrive there at the - there is a cave there, before we could enter that cave, Moses said to me "You should know that there is a person who is accompanying us and he is guarding us."  Then I asked him "Why do you say so?"  He said to me "I know the condition in which I am, it will not be easy for you to understand, but I am telling you that there is a person who is guarding us and his name is Maletswai Phasha."
	We continued to the river and then he said to me we should not use the same path, we should go different ways.  He took another direction, I took another direction and that is when I met this Maletswai Phasha and he asked me what we were looking for.  He was aggressive to me, but I did not tell him what we were looking for, but because Moses had already told me that I was one of the people who was bewitching him, when I asked him, I said to him that we are going to look for the cows and then he told me that there are no cows that side and he said to me we should not continue.  Then I said to him "It's okay, I'm going to look for a person who has accompanied me", and then he said to me "Yes, I know the person who is accompanying you because I have seen him."  ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry, that's a long answer to my question, how did Moses know who is bewitching him.  I wanted to know, did he have any gift or any skills to know people who are bewitching him?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, I believe that there is a way that we can use to know that.

MR SIBANYONI: From your evidence-in-chief, Moses was not a high-profile member of the ANC Youth League, he was merely present when it was launched, did I understand you correctly?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, that is what I said, but I don't know whether I should further explain that.

MR SIBANYONI: What do you want to explain further about that?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I want to say that the ANC Youth League, it was the first time that it was launched at that village and most of the people did not have membership cards, so Moses was one of the people who had not yet been issued with a membership card, he was just a supporter.  That is why I said he was not a high-profile member of the Youth League.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you also personally ever look at the mirror to see these people who were accused as witches?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: No, I did not look at that mirror.

MR SIBANYONI: Apart from Moses, no other ANC member was believed to be bewitched in the area, am I correct?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: If I understand your question well, when this incident took place, the only person who was involved as an ANC Youth League member was Moses alone.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it not merely a coincidence that Moses was a member of the ANC Youth League, because according to you many people had died before and those people were believed to be bewitched?  Is it not just a mere coincidence that Moses was an ANC member?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I do not understand the question well.

MR SIBANYONI: Let me put it in different ways.  Many people died in your area and the community believed that those people were bewitched, is that so?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: And amongst those people who died, only Moses was a member of the ANC Youth League.  You said so, isn't it?