Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

CHAIRPERSON: So just to get it clear, before you slapped somebody with your open hands, some other person had said to you 'Netshivale, you go to the victim and slap him.'

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: On the face or on the back or whatever?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: That was not referred to, where to assault.

CHAIRPERSON: So the only discretion you had was which part of the body to slap the person on?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, that was my own discretion, I was not instructed where to slap.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Meyer, may I interpose, just to get clarity on what he's saying with regard to this particular aspect of his evidence?  Is it your evidence that you were instructed to assault in a particular manner or is it your evidence that you were instructed to assault and it would then be your discretion, you would use your discretion as to how you would assault a particular detainee?  Do you get the difference between the two versions?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, I used my own discretion.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you instructed to assault in a particular manner?  Like, for instance, would you be instructed to assault by slapping the suspect?  Would that be your instruction?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: There were no instructions on how to assault.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  So, Mr Netshivale, are you telling us now that you acted solely on the instructions of your senior officers?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR MEYER: Does that include Director Ramaligela?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: But there's a difference in that these things were not happening simultaneously.  I don't know, you are referring to which incidents.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, were you at any stage instructed by Mr Ramaligela to participate in the assault on any of the detainees?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR MEYER: And I take it you told your attorney about that earlier when we started with this hearing?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR MEYER: Let me tell it shortly, Mr Netshivale.  It was never put by your attorney, to Mr Ramaligela that you acted on his instructions in the assaults.  How do you explain that?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Maybe he skipped that but, in the statements, it's there.

MR MEYER: Yes, I want to put it to you that you also acted on your own, or voluntarily and that it was not only on the instructions of Mr Ramaligela that you assaulted the victims.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: There is a certain incidents in which one can just assault without one instructions because it was a tradition that those people must be assaulted but, it started after receiving instructions.

MR MEYER: So, you're saying now that there were occasions in which you assaulted the victims yourself without being instructed?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now with regard to the incidents for which you are seeking amnesty, you're applying for the assault on Mr Chikororo, Mr Phosiwa, Mr Mahumela and Phoshwana.  And I have understood your evidence to mean that with regard to all these incidents, you acted under instructions, specifically from Mr Managa and Mr Ramaligela, to assault these persons.  You have now stated that there would be an occasion where you would assault persons without being instructed.  Would those incidents also relate to the assault on the persons that you have mentioned, the four persons that you have mentioned, Chikororo, Phoshwana, Phosiwa, Mahumela?  Did you at any stage assault any of these persons without any instruction from either Mr Ramaligela or Mr Managa?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: That is why I've already explained that the interrogation didn't take place for one day only but, I just - maybe on the other day, maybe I assaulted them without instructions but, I think sometimes, even if they didn't give instructions, because it was known that they were there to be assaulted and interrogated, it could have happened that I assaulted them without such instruction.  But it started with instructions.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Netshivale, is it correct that it was normal practice in the Security Branch to use methods of assault and so forth on suspects?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, they were assaulted.  It was not only in the Security Branches.  By then, if a person was arrested, he was supposed to be beaten in order to find out evidence.  In any case people were assaulted.  It wasn't just like today where they are no longer assaulted.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you did not require any instructions from anyone to assault a suspect?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Sometimes but it was not every person who was to be assaulted but, it depends on how the person is reacting to the questions as they were expected by the interrogator.  If the person is telling the truth, then if he was lying, then he could be beaten or assaulted.

SISI KHAMPEPE: My second question is, there was no need for you to get instructions from any senior officer for you to assault a suspect?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: There was a need because, one cannot just assault a person not knowing why he or she was arrested but, if we were told why he's arrested and that he or she be assaulted in connection with that case, it's then that we can do that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You've just conceded to Mr Meyer's statement that it was normal practice for the Security Police to use methods of assault on suspects and you conceded, you said 'Yes and it was not only restricted to the Security Branch, it was a practise that was prevalent, not necessarily with regard to the Security Branch but also with regard to the other branches of the police.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: During those days it was just like that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Meyer.  Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Netshivale?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I do have a few.

MS MTANGA: Mr Netshivale, you have testified that you were present when Mr Chikororo was tortured.  How many people were present at the time you were torturing Mr Chikororo?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can't remember as to how many there were.  However, there were many.

MS MTANGA: Can you give us an estimation?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I'm afraid I cannot lie.  I can't tell exactly how many there were.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you're not being asked to lie, Mr Netshivale, what Ms Mtanga is asking you is for an estimation.  You said there were many, now that word many is very wide.  What do you call many?  Was it three people, two, twenty people?  Just some sort of idea how many people were present when Mr Chikororo was tortured when you were personally present yourself?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can estimate that there was more than six.

CHAIRPERSON: More than six can mean a thousand.  Are you saying about six people or eight people because more than six means anything above six?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I don't want to say the exact number or the figure which may not have been the right one because I've forgotten, I only know that there were many because I can't really tell you exactly whether there were - or I can only say there were more than six.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say there were about more than six but about in the region of six people?  Because you see more than six means very little, it means only that there were not one, two, three, four or five people or six people.  I mean it can mean there were thousands or hundreds of other people.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, there were not one thousand.