Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes, I am talking about Abraham Phasha.

MS MTANGA: If the youth had not killed Abraham on that day, what would have happened to Abraham?  When you look back now - at the time, how would he have been dealt with had the youth not killed him?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: If they did not kill him, I think that would be handled by the police because I also pressurised them that that should be handled by the police, maybe we could have managed to get the person that was responsible.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.  Panel.

ADV SANDI: Yes, just one or two.
	Mr Phasha, do you perhaps know of any frictions, personal frictions that existed within the Phasha family?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Because I am the first-born at home, I remember that I once heard about conflicts that existed in the family.  I remember that at one stage I even wanted to know why that was happening, but I was never given a reason.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if there was any conflict between Jan Phasha and Abraham Madibeng Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I wasn't certain about a conflict that existed between the two, what I knew was that they were in good terms.

ADV SANDI: How were they related to each other, were they brothers, cousins?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I would put it this way, Mashyani Phasha's mother was the sister to Madibeng Phasha's father.  They had one - Madibeng Phasha's father and Abraham Phasha's mother were brother and sister.

ADV SANDI: Abraham Madibeng Phasha, what was his occupation, how did he make a living?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I was once with him in Johannesburg, he actually took me to Johannesburg.  He was working there, but I did not know where he was working in Johannesburg.

ADV SANDI: And Jan Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: He was working at Iscor in Pretoria.

ADV SANDI: Just one last question.  Your actions and involvement in this incident on that day, would you say that had anything to do with your political convictions?  Did it have anything to do with your being a supporter of the ANC?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: My involvement on that day, I would agree that they associated me with that, because whenever the Youth League holds meetings they would invite me and I would go and attend those meetings.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but you did not get involved in this incident because you wanted to further the aims and objectives of your organisation, as I understand you, you were just concerned about your brother, Moses, who had disappeared and everyone was looking for him.  Wasn't that the main problem you had in your mind and the reason why you were involved in this incident?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: That is correct, that is why I was actually involved in this thing.

ADV SANDI: Do you know the political affiliation of Jan Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I do not know.

ADV SANDI: The political affiliation of Johannes Maletswai Phasha, do you know?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I do not know which organisation he was supporting.

ADV SANDI: Do you know which organisation Abraham Madibeng Phasha supported or sympathised with?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I did not know which organisation he was supporting because he was a parent.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Phasha.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Phasha, what did the ANC Youth League lose by the death of Moses?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I believe that he will be one of the community leaders because even the community was involved in the search of Moses.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you believe in witchcraft, do you know about this belief that if you want to be rich or you want to be strong, well protected, you have to bring body parts from a member of your family or a relative? - as muti.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I did not know about that, I only heard people saying that.  I do not have certainty about that, because I am a Christian.

MR SIBANYONI: But people talk a lot about that, you are aware of such beliefs.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes, that is correct, I did hear about that.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Phasha, let me just explain to you that you are not able to get amnesty unless you have committed a crime.  Now I want to come back to what you did on this day when Abraham Phasha was killed, did you commit any crimes against Abraham Phasha on that day?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: The only thing I can say I did that say was my refusal to ask for forgiveness on his behalf.  I feel guilty about that because had I don that, maybe I could have managed to save him.  That is my belief.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but did you do anything that was wrong to Abraham Phasha himself?  Any crime.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: The only thing that I think I can say I did is that when he ask me to ask for forgiveness on his behalf, I refused.  I think that is the big mistake that I did, because he was really in trouble.  He was going to be killed and indeed they killed him.  That is why I even today believe that I was wrong by refusing because I could have managed to save his life.  But on the other hand, I think if I did that, if I did ask for forgiveness on his behalf, maybe they could have harmed me as well.  But I feel guilty for my refusal.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you cause any harm, yourself personally, did you cause any harm towards Abraham Phasha?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I did not harm him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you want him to be killed?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: No, I didn't want him to be killed, but due to my refusal I think I have contributed in his death.

CHAIRPERSON: If you had asked and the crowd killed him anyway, would you then have felt guilty?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: If I had done that and they proceeded with their intentions of killing him I would not feel guilty about that today because I had at least tried something, but I could not ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you associate yourself in any way with what the crowd, the ANC Youth League crowd were about to do to Abraham Phasha, or eventually did to him?  Did you associate yourself in any way with that?  In other words, did you agree in any way with that?

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: I did not agree with him that he should be killed, but I supported them that the person who was involved in the killing should be hunted and - he should be caught and handed over to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all that you were prepared to associate yourself with, to expose those who were responsible and to hand them over to the police so that the police can deal with that.

DANIEL LISUFI PHASHA: Yes, that is the only thing that I supported.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes Mr Richard, any re-examination?

MR RICHARD: None, Chairperson, argument yes, later.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Richard.  Mr Phasha, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR RICHARD: That is Mr Phasha's case.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Richard.  Mr Mokoena, have you got any evidence that you need to tender?

MR MOKOENA: There is no evidence that I can tender, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mokoena.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No evidence, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Mr Richard, you have your opportunity now to argue.