Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes.  More or less how many people formedthe SDUs?

UNKNOWN: We started, formed about three SDUs but astime went on the community volunteered and then I was only informedthat (inaudible) at such a place we have another group, that peopleare going to defend themselves.  Their aim was to defend themselvesagainst the 3 million gang.  I would go to different places asa coordinator to see to it that they function perfectly well. They would be doing the same thing that we were doing.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Are you saying there were several cells?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you don't know how many individualpeople, how many people in each cell, that you don't know.

UNKNOWN: That one I don't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were these cells all over the townshipmore or less?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You said a moment ago that the South AfricanPolice used to accompany them so that they were safe.  You remembertelling us that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Who did they have to protected against?

UNKNOWN: The community.

JUDGE WILSON: So they were in danger from the community,were they?

UNKNOWN: Because they made people to be like that againstthem.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get your firearm from?

UNKNOWN: One of the community members gave me a firearm?

JUDGE WILSON: Who?

UNKNOWN: I can't recall the name because it is a longtime now, but if he can come here I can point him.

JUDGE WILSON: You can't remember somebody who gave youa firearm?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: What happened to the firearm?

UNKNOWN: The police took the firearm.

JUDGE WILSON: When was that?

UNKNOWN: A week before I can get arrested.

JUDGE WILSON: On this charge?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And how long had you had the firearm?

UNKNOWN: Four months.

JUDGE WILSON: So you remember that.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I still remember well.

JUDGE WILSON: You still remember well, do you?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: But you can't remember who.
(BEGINNING OF SECOND SIDE OF TAPE 3 - ENGLISH INTERPRETER

INAUDIBLE: )

JUDGE WILSON: So were you given the gun as soon as youwere released on bail?

UNKNOWN: It just happened like that;  I never organisedit.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you take a gun when you were outon bail?

UNKNOWN: For the sake of my community's lives and myorganisation to defend them.

JUDGE WILSON: How many times had you been in prison?

UNKNOWN: On countless occasions, I can't remember well.

JUDGE WILSON: Excuse me?

UNKNOWN: On countless occasion, I couldn't rememberwell.

JUDGE WILSON: And you took a gun as soon as you werereleased on bail to protect your community.  Is that what youwant us to believe?

UNKNOWN: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the police ask you where you got the gunfrom?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell them who it was?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: These kombis that were used by the 3 milliongang, were they also used by other members of the public, of thecommunity?

UNKNOWN: No, the public boycotted the taxis.

UNKNOWN: So they were taxis that's been boycottedby the community out of their own free will.

UNKNOWN: Pardon?

UNKNOWN: The community decided to boycott the taxisout of their own free will.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And you've already told us that the policeprotected the taxis when they carried members of the 3 milliongang because the community may attack them, is that correct? You also once used a kombi to go to  Trombe, is it so?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Was that also a taxi?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: To whom did that taxi belong?

UNKNOWN: Mr (inaudible).

UNKNOWN: So it was another owner of taxis, competingtaxi rank.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Was there a taxi war sort of in thosedays too or not?

UNKNOWN: Ja, it was operating taxi by that time.  Itwas operating to transport the public.

UNKNOWN: But I think you don't follow my question. Was there a sort of taxi war between two taxi groups or didn'tthe taxi people have a war at that stage?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: You said they were transported by the kombiswhen they had to appear in court, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Were some of the members of the 3 milliongang arrested and did they have to appear in court?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And what happened to them?

UNKNOWN: They just got released.

UNKNOWN: Do you know of people giving evidence againsthim in those cases?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: Would the people be afraid to give evidenceagainst them?

UNKNOWN: That's true, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Did the police enquire and try to get evidenceagainst them?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: What you know of, or did they in factnot even try to get evidence against them?

UNKNOWN: They didn't even try.

UNKNOWN: But they have arrested them, so they musthave grounds to believe they have done something wrong.

UNKNOWN: The reason to arrest them, they wouldn't arrestthem.  They wanted the community to leave them alone.  They wouldtake them and put them in gaol.  It was just something that wasbeing played to take them from the community.  They arrested themfor safety sake from the community and the community's anger.

JUDGE WILSON: But you said they appeared in court.

UNKNOWN: Yes, even the very same court conspired withthe 3 million gang.

UNKNOWN: Did the 3 million gang recruit members fromall over the community?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they recruited members all over the community.

UNKNOWN: Did they even recruit members who belongedto the ANC?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did those members remain members of theANC?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I still remember two of them.

UNKNOWN: Are they still members of the ANC now?

UNKNOWN: They are not alive any more.

UNKNOWN: What happened to them?

UNKNOWN: One of them was killed by the community atSashoville(?) he was stoned to death.   And the other one waskilled by the SDU members during a war or during a fight.

UNKNOWN: How many members of the 3 million ganghave been killed over the years by the SDUs or the community?

UNKNOWN: I don't have any specific number, but it isbetween 20 and 25.

UNKNOWN: Was that the original founder members?

UNKNOWN: And the others who crossed from ANC and joinedthe gangster.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Thulu, will you tell us how many peoplestayed Maokeng Township?  Are you able to approximate the numberof people?

UNKNOWN: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Will you say you have about 50 000 people,you have about 5 000 residents in Maokeng Township?

UNKNOWN: I remember the statistics were up to 130 000residents of Maokeng.  It was in 1991.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you have other political parties formingpart of the community of Maokeng Township?  Would you have theANC, the IFP and the PAC and such other parties?

UNKNOWN: AZAPO was there and the PAC was there, butwhen I left the IFP was not here.  I don't know presently is itthere or not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And are you able to tell us what the concentrationlevel within the 3 million gang was?  How many percentages youhad of the AZAPO membership with forming part of the 3 milliongang?

UNKNOWN: Some of them joined the 3 million gang andI met their leaders.  I still remember when I met their leaders. They were with Duvidi in the court of law and they were alreadystaying at Trombo(?), which was a very strong (inaudible).  Icalled the two of them aside. I said to them, Look, this is irrelevant,we are fighting for one thing.  I am requesting you, be awarethat the Nationalist Party is using the 3 million gang.  I don'twant to land up in a situation where we would be fighting againstyou.  They asked me, what do you want us to do?  I said the communityknows that you are now part of the 3 million gang.  I will goback to the community and tell them what to do and then you haveto go back to your different homes until I resolve this issue.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Let me ask you a very direct question,Mr Tulu.  Was the 3 million gang threatening the whole communityof Maokeng, which consisted of other different political parties,or did it direct its attacks predominantly on the ANC members?