Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

MS COLLETT: Page 15 at the bottom, going to page 16 at the top.
	Mr Tjabane, I don't think you've actually answered my question.  What I put to you is that Director Letklapa said that he knew for a fact that the bases in Transkei had not been given the instruction to cease in terms of the armed struggle, at the time that the Bahai Faith Mission attack took place.  What do you say to that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Take it from me you have a problem of not understanding the PAC issues.  Take it from me.  I'm telling you that the structures failed to convey the message quickly to the bases.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just ask, Mr Tjabane, when did you have your first meeting with your subordinates after the January decision was communicated to you?  Would you remember?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I cannot remember the date, but if you were listening, after it was mentioned that it was time to disband, I called all my structures, the higher structures in APLA, and I told them that the President had said people should stop fighting and prepare for the negotiations.  So they had to go to prepare themselves to go and approach the structures down the hierarchy to stop fighting, to tell them to stop fighting and prepare themselves for the negotiations.

ADV GCABASHE: We've heard that evidence, I'm simply trying to ascertain when you had this meeting with your subordinates.  Sometime before March and after January, have you any idea when between January and March you had this meeting?  That's what the question was.

XHOLILE TJABANE: After getting this message from the President towards the end of January, I told them that there was this message from the President to cease the armed struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was when did you tell them, when was the meeting that you told them?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I cannot remember the date.

MS COLLETT: So would your comment on the evidence of Letklapa when he said, and I quote
"I knew that the unit involved hadn't received the information from Transkei ..."
... would your comment on that be that Letklapa was not telling the truth if he testified to that effect?

MR NTONGA: Mr Chairman with due respect, Mr Letklapa is talking about a unit, the lowest, and my client is talking about the upper structures which were given instructions and he will know when each unit received those instructions.

MS COLLETT: Let me put it in a different fashion.  The unit which these people belonged to fell under your command in the Transkei, is that not correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I was the leader of that unit in my area.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that you would have been the person who would have had to give the instructions that the armed struggle had been suspended, so that they could be given to the units under your command?

XHOLILE TJABANE: In my area I was the high command, I was the one who was telling my subordinates, instructing them.  I was the one who was instructing them.

MS COLLETT: If you will just answer the question, Mr Tjabane.  Is it correct that you would have been the person who would have given the instruction that the armed struggle had been suspended, to all the units or to the commanders of all the units?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I thought I had answered your question.

MS COLLETT: I'm going to ask you again.  You as the commander of the Transkei area, was it your responsibility to make sure that the commanders of all the units that you've referred to were given this information that the armed struggle had been suspended?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I had a huge responsibility.  Among my duties I was to go and tell the structures that were working under me in the area.

MS COLLETT: Let me ask you again.  Did you in fact give the instructions to the commanders of the units that fell under your area, that the armed struggle had been suspended?

MR LAX: With respect, he's answered this three or four times already, he's ...(intervention)

MS COLLETT: With respect ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just let me finish, don't interrupt me.  I'm busy speaking to you, have that patience just to listen.  He's said emphatically that he instructed all his commanders to cease the armed struggle, he said emphatically that he was responsible for all the units underneath him.  How do you want him to say it another way?

ADV SANDI: Yes but I thought, Mr Collett, are you not saying, in that situation we are talking about, that he would have been the person to call these people and tell them that look, the armed struggle has now been suspended?  That is your question as I understand it.

MS COLLETT: That is my question.

MR LAX: But with respect, he said that he called his commanders together, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He did not, he said he called his regional commanders together.

MR LAX: Well then she must be clear in her question which commanders she's talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think that's what ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Because I'm not, I understand him to have said he called all his regional commanders together at the end of January and he instructed them to inform the people underneath him that the armed struggle had finished.  That's how he put it.  I don't which commanders she's talking about now.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you.  Was this a pyramid structure?  That you were at the top of the pyramid, underneath you were the regional commanders, is that correct so far?

XHOLILE TJABANE: It was from the regional commander down to the camp commander.  Those camp commanders, those are the structures that I was talking about.  I used to tell them what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Regional commander to the camp commander did you say?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And was the camp commander the person who commanded the units?

XHOLILE TJABANE: The camp commander was a person who was in the camp taking full responsibility, maintaining order  and report if there was any infiltration.  He was the most important person because he was the person who was in charge of  the soldiers and monitored their behaviour.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he command the units?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, he is the one, the camp commander is the one who was taking charge of the camp.  Whenever there was a meeting he would be called as a person who had a huge responsibility of monitoring the forces in the camp.

CHAIRPERSON: You still aren't answering the question.  Who commanded the units?  The units who went out and did something in the field, who commanded them?

XHOLILE TJABANE: The units were under the field commander whenever they go on an operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was it your function to ensure when you gave instructions, that the instructions were understood by and complied with by the camp commanders?

XHOLILE TJABANE: After speaking to them, the regional commander would ensure that the people won't do a mistake, they would do as instructed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well would you take steps to ensure that they had done that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: If I heard from my intelligence that some things were going wrong, I would deal with that particular person who did something wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had intelligence who told you what was going on?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, in the camp you do have intelligence so that things don't just go about.  You have to make sure that you get a report from the intelligence that is there to monitor every movement in the camp and in the structures.

CHAIRPERSON: And they reported to you?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, the intelligence would come and report to me directly.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did they report to you that the people in the camp had been told that the armed struggle was over and they should cease operations?

XHOLILE TJABANE: What used to happen was this, if I had instructed the regional commander, the instruction would go down to the forces and I would be told that a meeting was held and the people were instructed as I had told the regional commanders.