Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

MR ROSSOUW: Did Sehlwana say that there already six?

P T C J FOURIE: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: Van den Berg did not tell you that he had previously seen that there were more people?

P T C J FOURIE: No.

MR ROSSOUW: You don't know where Sehlwana got the bus?  You weren't involved in that?

P T C J FOURIE: No, I wasn't involved in the planning.

MR ROSSOUW: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Just very briefly, Mr Fourie.  Just on this point, I just want to clear up an issue.  When Sehlwana, according to you, came running towards you, he was coming clearly from the Botswana side and he must have been visible to the people on the other side of the river, not so?  When he came running.

P T C J FOURIE: Yes.

MR BLACK: To such an extent that you felt it necessary to go down on the other side of the koppie so that the people across the river couldn't see you?

P T C J FOURIE: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Fourie, the little bit I know of that area, is that it is quite bushy.

P T C J FOURIE: Mr Sehlwana ran very close to the river bed when he was coming towards me. Well, outside the river bed are lots of trees, it is very stony, lots and lots of rocks.

MR BLACK: After this incident had taken place, can you remember exactly what the message was that you had received?  Were there more details than that people had been wounded and had been killed?

P T C J FOURIE: No, I can't specifically remember. What I can remember is that people had been killed and that people had been wounded and that we should withdraw from our observation posts.

MR BLACK: And do you remember who gave you that message or order?

P T C J FOURIE: I received it from this plane manned by Warrant-Officer Hall.

MR BLACK: Did you at any stage, after receiving that order to withdraw from your post, go to the scene of the shooting?  While people were still at that scene of the shooting?

P T C J FOURIE: When I got to the scene everything had been cleared up, because we had to move fast from the scene to go to Alldays.

CHAIRPERSON: But he was with Mr Van den Berg, wasn't it?

P T C J FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van den Berg told us that when they came there everything had been removed.

MR BLACK: Yes, sorry, I forgot that.  Okay, thanks. I have got no further questions to put to this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

ADV DE JAGER: The money, the weapons and money which was supposedly to have arrived on the Wednesday, now what money would that have been?

P T C J FOURIE: I think it would have been money which would have been provided to the terrorists to enter the country with.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the security police involved in that?  In a clandestine manner, involved in giving these people some money for the purpose of coming in?

P T C J FOURIE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, yes, may I just, a word of explanation. Mr John Hall that was referred to by the witness, was a member of the security force and he was in the spotter plane and he was manning a radio for communication purposes. Mr John Hall has not applied for amnesty in this instant.
	Can you tell us, Mr Fourie, do you think that you did anything wrong, anything illegal or unlawful as far as this incident is concerned?

P T C J FOURIE: No, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Then why are you applying for amnesty?

P T C J FOURIE: You never know.  You never know what could happen and what could arise out of this incident and one would like to feel safe.

UNKNOWN: Do you have some doubt as to whether your conduct could be seen as illegal or not?

P T C J FOURIE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: If I may just ask you this.  Was there any indication given to you that these people were going to be killed?  Or did you at any stage come to such a conclusion?

P T C J FOURIE: No, I at no stage drew that inference, because as far as what I can remember from the initial planning, is that they would be arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Arrested?

P T C J FOURIE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Fourie.