Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

MR PRIOR: The question simply, if your information before you commenced that attack was that these are now senior citizens at a wine tasting, it was their Christmas function, that these people weren't now part of the military structures, they weren't part of the army structures, they were basically just there to enjoy themselves, would that have made any difference to you carrying out the operation?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: So you want to know how far would my political reflexes push me?

MR PRIOR: If you understand it that way, could you maybe answer it in that light?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Because I'm really not sure.

MR PRIOR: Would you - okay.
	Mr Chairman, I have no further questions at this time or any further questions of this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if any of the victims or implicated parties wish to ask any questions?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Davis would like to ask questions.  He may he come up onto the podium?  And there are others that would like to follow.

MR DAVIS: My name is Mark Davis, my parents David and Gillian Davis were killed in the King William's Town attack.
	We have heard from your affidavit that your primary reason for the attack was to kill Nationalist Party members and members of the military.  In what you've spoken about this morning, you've also indicated that members of the white community, militarised members of the white community could also be seen as valid, legitimate targets.  How do you feel about women at that meeting, were they also a legitimate target?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I can answer that questions by talking back a question that, do you take them, do you ...[indistinct] from the rest of the system or do you take them as the ...[indistinct] of an oppressive system?
	You must remember, the white apartheid circular government was put in place by its electorate, its constituency and part of the constituency was unfortunately the women who were there, so it really does not make an issue.

MR DAVIS: So it seems that anybody who would participate in an election was therefore a legitimate target, is that what you're saying?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: You can draw that conclusion if you want.

MR LAX: You must answer the question please.  Do you consider that?  He's saying that it seems from your answer, that what you're saying is that anyone who participated in an election is a legitimate target.  The answer is: "yes" or "no".

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Anyone who gave thumbs up for our people to be subjected into the brutality and the misery that they were.  And unfortunately Mr Davis, it happened to be the white community, that was by the design of history not Thembelani Xundu.

MR DAVIS: There is an issue of personal responsibility here as well as collective but I'll leave that.
	I would like to tell you that my parents were not members of any military establishment, my parents had not been trained in any military in any sense, they did not know how to use a gun.  My parents had never voted in a South African election, let alone vote for the National Party and yet they were unfortunate victims of that night.
	I'd like to know from you, how do you feel about that?  Have you ever thought about what the loss of my parents meant to me and my family?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Sorry, can you repeat the last part of your question?

MR DAVIS: I would like to know from you, have you ever thought what the loss that the death of my parents caused to me and my family?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  To answer the first part of your question, you simply speak with authority that your parents did not vote for the National Party.  I mean, I find it very strange because I may not be sure that my father, in the last general elections, voted for the PAC because I'm PAC or voted for the ANC because of whatever reason because it was done to a secret ballot and now ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Xundu, ...[intervention]

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: How could you be sure to that ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Xundu, he said his parents didn't vote at all in any election so they couldn't have voted for anybody, you didn't here that part of his statement.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  And then just remove the fact that they did not vote for the National Party.  But be that as it may Mr Davis, you will agree with me that I couldn't have the time to ask each and everybody that was there whether he voted or not.

MR DAVIS: That's not what I was asking.  I was asking whether you have ever considered the loss and the pain that your actions caused to myself and my family.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  I'm going to try and answer you now.  You have heard about a person or the testimony to the TRC, by the name of Joe Mamasela.  You have heard about the testimony to the TRC about the deeds of people like Colonel Nieuwoudt.
	You have heard about the agony and the pain and in fact the brutal manner in which the PEBCO 3 was executed.  What do you think of the people who were killed in numbers in night vigils where we have pain in double.  
	People who were in a night vigil, they already have pain and they have gathered around a certain pain and then somebody comes in and they inflict more pain, the list is endless.

MR LAX: Sorry, you haven't answered his question, with all due respect.  He's saying, what do you feel about that and all you're doing is quoting history?  We understand the context, please try and help this man by making ...[intervention]

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I'm trying to lay a base for my question, with due respect.

MR LAX: For your answer you mean?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: For my answer.

MR LAX: Okay.  Sorry, I thought you were finished.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No, I am not yet finished.
	And lastly, I want to refer you to - before answering your question, to refer you to one of the quotations by comrade John Jati Pogela that: "It is high time that the white people must also bury their dead".
	Now in doing all - in quoting all those facts historically and relating all those, I'm not trying to ridicule you, I'm not trying to but I want you to wear my jacket and understand me from my position.  
	I understand that it must have been traumatic for you to lose your two parents at the same time but that was the level to which the conflict in the country was, it was painful.  And in my application, at the end of the last sentence I said:
"I'm sorry about the loss of life"
	And I'm just sorry that it had to be your mother and your father.   Much as I think we are also sorry that we lost our people in Boipatong, in Sharpeville, the Pebco 3, the twins at the Umtata Massacre - so if you can wear my jacket I can wear yours.

MR DAVIS: I was struck when I read your affidavit of the regret you expressed about having stolen somebody's car.  I would just like to know how that compares with your regret at the loss of my parents' lives.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: So you want to know which one is greater than each other?

MR DAVIS: I would like to know your opinion on that topic.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: As I have indicated in that affidavit, other than I am sorry for the loss of people's lives.  Now to put that in comparison with each other really puts me into a problem.

MR DAVIS: This is not a question, I would just like to tell Mr Xundu that the last five have been incredibly difficult five years for myself and my family.  It's not made any easier by having to revisit things now five years later.  One of the reasons why I came here was I hoped that this process could lead to some sense of reconciliation.  I'm not convinced yet whether that reconciliation will be between myself and the perpetrators or whether it will just be reconciliation between myself and my parents' death.  That's all I'd like to say, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax.
	Can you please put your name on record?