Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

MR MBANDAZAYO: Both applicants, Chairperson, I'm talking about both applicants.  Definitely Chairperson, when he's arrested, Chairperson, he will say anything which will save his skin, which he thinks and at the end of the day, if one, we are representing these people, you find sometimes that look this was stupid, if he had done this, he would not have been in this mess in which he is, but at the time he did this, he believed that this will help him because he had no other option but to pursue that particular line.  So it's my submission that, Chairperson, the statements which were made with the intention of going to Court, definitely I know that though it's taken into regard in some other aspect, but it's not the thing that the Commission will decide on the amnesty because most of the people lie in Court, they lie deliberately in Court because the first thing that comes to mind is the way of getting out of this whole thing.  "If I put it this way I may get out with the whole thing."  So definitely Chairperson, if one admits that:  "What I did, I did this and I did with the purpose of political objective", you are sunk, there's no doubt about that.
	Now, therefore Chairperson, it's my submission that the applicants have met all the requirements of the Act and that they belonged to a bona fide political organisation and what they did, they did in pursuance of the struggle of the PAC at the time.  Chairperson I want to emphasise that because I know in most of the hearings that some of the applicants, even if you can take that to - it counts in their favour to say because it was - some of the applicants were saying:  "Look we never heard about it, we are in the rural areas, it took some time before it came in", but they were honest to the Committee and said:  "Look we never - we heard about that", but definitely there was a disagreement which Col Poni has indicated and of course he put it bluntly, the first applicant, that:  "I did not accept, me personally" but it was not depending on him, it was depending on the Commander as correctly put by Col Poni, they have to wait until they are told that:  "Look, you suspend now, we have decided to suspend the arms struggle", from their Commanders and if they have done that after that Chairperson, definitely I would agree, I wouldn't be arguing now to you.  I would say:  "Look, they did that in defiance, so what they did, they did for their own benefit, it had nothing to do with the struggle at the time", but as Col Poni correctly put it and of course he put it in a very diplomatic manner, but I must say that Letlapa Mphahlele was a Director of Operations and everybody was looking at him and as he said that they have to do damage control, the first thing they have to get hold of the Director of Operations who was in the Transkei in the rural areas.  I must say ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to tell me about the telephone system in Transkei, Mr Mbandazayo, I come from there.  You know it.  Also myself Chairperson, I'm from that area so Chairperson you know it and everybody, as he indicated that not everybody was happy and it's clear that he would run away also himself and Chairperson, if I may put you into perspective, you know Chairperson that the Commander of APLA, Sabelo Pama was here on the New Year's Eve of January 1984, 1994 and what was his message?  The struggle continues.  That was his message and that the forces should hit hard and it was broadcast on television and he left the country and everybody - definitely, it's clear that by the time he left the country he knew that the arms struggle is going to be suspended but he could not face these forces because he knew what is going to happen.
It was on 1st January, this New Year's message of January 1994.  He broadcast it, he was in Transkei at that time, but it was broadcast after he had left the country and it was clear he could not force, it was clear when he left that message, he had already made up the decision with the leadership but without his forces, because he knew what was going to happen, he had to go outside before and as Col Poni put it, by the time it was announced he was in Namibia and they were in Harare, they did not know what would happen, what he's going to do, they have to do damage control.  He was nowhere to be found himself.  So Chairperson now they have to contact Letlapa Mphahlele in Transkei.  They couldn't find him and it took some time before they got hold of him and by the ...

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't Mr Mhlongo say that Moses communicated with Mphahlele?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes of course Moses was communicating with him because they were in agreement that the struggle must continue.  Now the High Command outside has to contact him to say:  "Look, a decision has been taken, the arms struggle has to be suspended, he has to stop everything now" but they could - of course Moses has to contact him but at that time Letlapa had not been ordered by Sabelo Pama to stop everything and by the time everything was ordered, where was Letlapa?  He was in Lesotho.  He has run away because everybody was after him.  He was hiding in Lesotho because also himself, he could not face the forces because everybody did not understand.   Chairperson I know that's not the platform for that because it has a lot to involve in it and of course at the end of the day who is suffering?  The ordinary foot soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: And the victims.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson and the victims.  The victims and the ordinary foot soldiers because of the politicians and the politicians now are nowhere to be - they are alone in jail and the victims are here, they are nowhere who are responsible for the whole thing.  Must they, Chairperson, be punished because of the decisions of the politicians?  Must they suffer because of the decision of the politicians because they take hasty decisions, they could not face them to tell them and explain to them that look, this is the decision and they decided that they'll hear it over the radio or on the papers and they knew that APLA has to follow certain procedures before it has come to ...  Chairperson I know that I've been involved in many hearings with the Chairperson and one of the incidents happened in March, if Chairperson would remember, it was a repossession here, it was an APLA - and they came from Lesotho.  At that time the arms struggle was suspended and Letlapa was there and it was under his command and Tabelo Maseko was there, who's the head of repossession and he testified in that hearing that:  "I ordered them because at that time there was nothing as APLA - we have not taken that decision to suspend the arms struggle and those people were granted amnesty, if I still remember ...(indistinct) the other applicant they could not get him because he was at Lesotho, he did not receive the notice so it's still going to be heard.
	So Chairperson it's my submission that the applicants should not - the responsibility of the politicians should not be put on their shoulders and therefore Chairperson they should be granted amnesty as they applied for as they have met all the requirements of the Act.  
	Chairperson, unless there is any aspect you want me to address you on.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr van der Heever.