Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-20

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, you were sent to infiltrate this group through a certain person by the name of Sipho, that you ended up sharing a cell with at Guguletu Police Station?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, your Honour.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And as a result of the information you obtained from Sipho you were able to visit the brother?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, your Honour.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I just want to get some information.  What is it that you said to Sipho's brother that made him to immediately take you to the group in question?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I said to Sipho's brother I was being held with his brother in the cells, because I was suspected of throwing a hand grenade and I further told him that there was no clear evidence, thus my lawyer managed to release me and I was on my way to tell the freedom fighters in the Western Cape that the person who was supposed to bring them arms was shot in the Western Transvaal and thus he cannot come and, therefore, I had substituted him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when you were taken to that group, how many people did you find there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: When I arrived there there were about 20 men in a house, inside the house and what I realised, most of them believed in Rastafarian belief.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Mbelo.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Mbelo, just something that emanated from my sister here, that Major Odendal and Lieutenant Liebenberg would have been the seniors in the Western Cape or in the Peninsula and we look at Sergeant Bellingan, would have been a junior, would I be right?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, yes, it is so.

ADV MOTATA: Now, if orders were to be given, amongst the three, who had to be listened to?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: According to their ranks, it would be the eldest, your Honour.  That would be Mr Odendal.

CHAIRPERSON: By the eldest there do you mean the most senior?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am referring to the ranks, Sir.

ADV MOTATA: Now, when you were sent from Vlakplaas with your colleague, Sergeant Bellingan, were you to take over or work under Major Odendal and Lieutenant Liebenberg?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, we were under our commanders in Vlakplaas.  They were taking instructions, Mr Bellingan would listen to what Mr Liebenberg instructed.

ADV MOTATA: Let us take an instance of the meeting at Wingfield.  You were all there, is it not so, with Liebenberg, at least?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir.

ADV MOTATA: And, please help me, my impression at this moment is that instructions were given there and not separately, like for instance, if you were to be called aside by Bellingan?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, instructions were given in this one meeting, your Honour, but it happened that after the meeting there was murmuring to the effect that, everybody was aware how police were being attacked and everybody should see how they defend themselves.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But there were instructions from Mr Odendal as to what had to happen in the execution of the operation and yesterday you told us what a good cop was.  That a good cop was the one who acted in accordance with the instructions given by his senior.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Your Honour, it is true, but in this situation and in the meeting held in Wingfield, Mr Odendal said his bit, but after his, after this, when the security branch was given a chance to say its bit, they gave their own orders as we were different units there and stated it clearly to us that these men were heavily armed and dangerous.  One other thing which I have already mentioned in my application is that Mr Bellingan and Mr Liebenberg were having problems with certain individuals in Guguletu and it was rumoured that if these people can be removed from Guguletu and they were also attacking the Wit Doeke, so if they can be removed, Guguletu will be peaceful and quiet.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, you actually acted on rumours, you did not act on the instructions of Mr Odendal?  That is what you are telling us?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, your Honour, I did not follow rumours, that is what we were told, because after our meeting we stood aside and we were told that, boys, this is the time to remove these men, because this has been long planned and we had to find these people or get them.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the evidence, Major Odendal was not a member of the Security Police, although he was in charge of this operation, is that so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Odendal, I do not know which branch was he representing, but on Security Branch side was represented by Mr Liebenberg.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But, you know, I have a problem with this particular piece of evidence, Mr Mbelo, because in your application you make it quite abundantly clear that the instructions were not to arrest the members of the group and you say this, you do not qualify it as this having been a private instructions from Mr Bellingan and not only in this case, but you had an opportunity to give evidence before the people who were conducting the Section 29 hearing and you still insisted that no instructions, I mean, specific instructions were given to take them out and sweep them whilst you had congregated as a group of policemen.
	Now you are saying there was a private meeting after general instructions had been given by Mr Odendal in which such words like "take them out" or "sweep" were used.  I am finding it very difficult to understand what you are trying to tell us.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, in this meeting of ours Mr Odendal said his bit as stating that we must prevent the attack on this Kombi.  He did not mention anything about arresting these people, but stressed that we must prevent this attack.  The members of our branch commented on what was being planned and they came up with the words that these people must be wiped or removed.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think we can continue longer, we will  have to take the adjournment now and then we can continue.  I had hoped we would finish, but it appears we will not.  We will now take an adjournment till half past two.

MS PATEL: Would everyone please rise?
HEARING ADJOURNS

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: Has anybody got any further questions arising out of what has been put?  Why was I not told this at 20 to two?  Well, I am sorry to have got you all back here, but we will now adjourn then ... (intervention).

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, may I just, perhaps, one aspect.  It was apparent yesterday when my learned friend, Ms Patel, led the evidence or questioned the first applicant, Mr Bellingan, that the, what she put about the evidence of Jimmy Mbane that it went a lot wider than what is contained in his statement and one does not want to have a situation where you hear a lot of evidence and then once again we have got to say to your Lordship we need an adjournment now to consult about this.  I wonder if it would not be practical to obtain, in the form of a statement, those additional aspects and then we can, at least, prepare adequately, consult adequately and it would not necessary to waste more time.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know if the additional aspects came as a result of a statement or merely as a result of a consultation.

MS PATEL: It came as a result of the consultation for which I requested a postponement, if my learned colleague will remember.

MR BOOYENS: No, I appreciate that, M'Lord, but what I am suggesting is, perhaps, those, the fact of that consultation can be put in writing, in the form of a statement, if possible, and then we will waste less time, but I think it is entirely up to my learned friend.