Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"We asked him if he knew about the meeting that was to take place between us and Prince Gideon Zulu and Captain Langene"
correct?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"Dalaxolo told us that he knew of the meeting and he told us to go to Prince Gideon's home to wait for him there as he was going to be there as well"
is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"We then went to Prince Gideon's home.

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"Prince Gideon was not there"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"We waited for him at his house until he arrived at 17H00"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"Prince Gideon greeted us"

MR MBAMBO: Yes.
MR HEWIT
"Shook hands and was very delighted to see us there"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"And he said that he was very delighted with the jobs that we were doing in Empangeni and surrounding areas"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"People present at that meeting were Prince Gideon Zulu, Dalaxolo Luthuli, Robert Umzumela the Secretary, Chief Kawula, Captain Langene, Mr Niauza, Chief Biela and Brian Mkhize and myself"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: And then you say this in paragraph 106
"We discussed my arrest and they showed their anger with Nati Gumede"

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Then you say
"Dalaxolo Luthuli said that we should eliminate Nati Gumede"

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: So he is the first man that says: "Kill the person", not Prince Gideon Zulu.

MR MBAMBO: No.

ADV MOTATA: No, in fairness Mr Hewit, you should also have in the background that the tenor of his evidence was that Prince Gideon Zulu would never speak directly, he would speak through Dalaxolo Luthuli, in fairness to the witness.

MR HEWIT: I don't - I'll deal with that in argument, I don't propose to deal with that now.
	Was it Dalaxolo Luthuli who raise the question of the assassination?

MR MBAMBO: Prince Gideon Zulu did. ...[intervention]

MR HEWIT: In his words he spoke first, not Dalaxolo Luthuli?

MR MBAMBO: He was reprimanding Dalaxolo saying: "Why have you waited so long to kill this person.  Then Dalaxolo reprimanded us.  Xena then mentioned that ...[end of tape] ...[inaudible] for us to take or to travel with to Durban.

MR HEWIT: Well I'm happy with the different answers that you've given.
	Would you bear with me Mr Chairman?
	I want to go to paragraphs 7 and 8 of your affidavit now, and in particular paragraph 6 of your affidavit.  I want to start with the last part of that where you are dealing with your association with this Mr Umvuyana.  Do you see that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now Umvuyana is deceased isn't he?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Right, you say at the bottom of paragraph 6
"Whilst in the KwaZulu Police there were moves by the South African Police to suspend Umvuyana for numerous offences which he'd allegedly committed around kwaMakutha, Lamontville, Umlazi and Umbumbulu"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Was Umvuyana at that stage a fugitive from the police, was he on the run?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Was he a member of the South African Police?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Was he a member of the KwaZulu Police?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Well, what - did the South African Police want to arrest this man?  Tell us, what were the South African Police interested in him for?

MR MBAMBO: He was wanted for crimes committed in kwaMakutha, Umbumbulu, Lamontville and Umlazi.  He had 36, 35 cases against him, 35 or 35.

MR HEWIT: Were some of those cases, to your knowledge, for theft and armed robbery as well, alleged theft and armed robbery?

MR MBAMBO: I knew about murders.

MR HEWIT: Any other crimes that he was allegedly hunted for or wanted for?

MR MBAMBO: I do not know of any.

MR HEWIT: Anything, any crimes involving motor vehicles?

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't know about that.

MR HEWIT: It could be so but he didn't tell you about it, is that what you're saying?

MR MBAMBO: It could happen.

MR HEWIT: Go to paragraph 7, you say
"During 1990 when I made an application to join the KwaZulu Police, the then Chief Minister and Minister of the KwaZulu Police, Doctor G M Buthelezi called Constable Umvuyana up to Ulundi and offered him a position at Ulundi"

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Is this what Umvuyana told you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's true.

MR HEWIT: You weren't present when Doctor Buthelezi spoke to him?

MR MBAMBO: I was not present in the office but I was around the premises at Ulundi and the KwaZulu Parliament.

MR HEWIT: Yes.  Alright, anyway it was Umvuyana who told you that Doctor Buthelezi wanted to see him?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, and he went into his office.

MR HEWIT: Right.  Then you say
"Doctor Buthelezi offered him a position at Ulundi as Doctor Buthelezi refused to suspend him"
is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.
MR HEWIT
"I accompanied him to the Chief Minister's office at Ulundi and I waited in the vehicle when he went up to see the Chief Minister"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: You stayed in your vehicle, the vehicle the entire time?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Well while you waited for him, were you not in your vehicle?

MR MBAMBO: I was but I did not spend the rest of the time in the car, I got out of the car at some point.

MR HEWIT: Did you park the car outside the building?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MR HEWIT: In the road?

MR MBAMBO: In a parking area just near the building.

MR HEWIT: Right.  And when you got out, did you just get out to stretch your legs and walk around the area where the car was parked?

MR MBAMBO: No, I went with him to the entrance and there were police there and it was just himself and he also introduced me and he explained whom he had come to see and was searched and they took his gun.  He went ahead and I remained behind.  After a while I went back to the car.

MR HEWIT: Alright, so I gather from what you're saying, you did not enter the building?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: And at no stage did you enter the building?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: And at no stage did you see Doctor Buthelezi?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Everything you're telling us here about what transpired, if it transpired at all between Doctor Buthelezi and Umvuyana, is what this dead man Umvuyana told you according to you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Right, now let's carry on with this paragraph.
"I accompanied him to the Chief Minister's office at Ulundi and waited in the vehicle when he went up to see Chief Minister"
You don't say in that paragraph you got out and went to the door do you?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: No.
"When he came back he told me what had transpired.  Constable Umvuayna stated that he will only work Ulundi if he was made in charge of a unit of a branch"
This is all what this dead person told you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, and it did occur.

MR HEWIT: This now dead person, this now dead person?  Correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.
MR HEWIT
"He was then placed in charge of a firearm unit at Ulundi which has jurisdiction all over KwaZulu Police areas"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"He was issued with a powder blue 4 x 4 Toyota Stout which was used by the then Commissioner of the KwaZulu Police, General Buchner"

MR MBAMBO: A mistake was committed here.  That car eventually ended up being used by General Buchner.

MR HEWIT: Have you finished?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Anyway, the point is that at no stage were you present when the Chief Minister was allegedly having conversations with this Mr Umvuyana?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Everything you're telling us is hearsay?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now, in neither of those paragraphs do we see any reference to the evidence which you gave at this hearing, namely that when he came back out of this building he was carrying a lot of money.

MR MBAMBO: It is not in the affidavit.

MR HEWIT: Why not?