Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

MR LAX: And then you left - you say here that
"On Sunday we left Umgubaba at about 10 o'clock at night for the bush in Nkwale."
You say:
"Sonny decided we should kill Bantu Hamilton Gumede, and we all agreed."

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.
MR LAX
"We could not attack him at his home because there was a large group of IFP supporters staying there."
Correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.
MR LAX
"I decided (that's yourself) it would be easier to get him on the bus, and the rest agreed."

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now earlier when you were asked a question by Ms Mtanga, you said the
"The main purpose wasn't to get Gumede, the main purpose was to teach the people of Nkwale a lesson, to make them afraid and to make them flee the area."
That doesn't appear from your statement at all.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I did mention this, that we wanted everyone who was in the bus or who were residents of Nkwale and Mashiwane.

MR LAX: You did say something about, that only IFP people would be on the bus, but your primary aim was to kill Gumede and to catch him, especially because this was straight after Mtolo's funeral and you believe Gumede was responsible for that, isn't that so?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: And after this operation you went back to Master Shange and you reported what you had done.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: What did he say to you about shooting the bus, when you reported to him what you had done?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: He said: "Well done", and we gave him the guns.

MR LAX: One of your other colleagues, in the statement he made to a magistrate, says that Master Shange ordered you to go on this mission.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I don't think that's true.  He gave us the guns, but he didn't know that we were going to attack the bus before we attacked the bus.

MR LAX: Why was it necessary for Master Shange to decide that you should go back to the forest?  If you made the decision to do this thing on your own, why did you have to wait for him to come back from the Transkei, before going back to the forest, before him ordering you to go back to the forest, he was the one who decided how many of you should go back? - and that's clear from your statement Exhibit A.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I would like you to repeat your question.

MR LAX: The point I'm making is a very simple one, you waited till Master Shange came back from Mtolo's funeral in the Transkei, only at that point was it decided.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: We were waiting for the funeral, Mtolo's funeral, because we respected Mtolo.

MR LAX: Didn't Master Shange send you to the forest, the seven of you?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LAX: Didn't Master Shange send you to the forest, the seven of you?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: No, he didn't, we decided that we were not scared and we can do this.  He didn't even know that we were going to attack the bus, we decided this on our own.

MR LAX: What about - how many other comrades were there besides the seven of you?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: You mean at that time?  Are you referring to all the comrades or the comrades we were with at the time?

MR LAX: You were part of a group of comrades that were hiding in the forest at Nkwale and hiding at Umgubaba, the group that was being trained by Master Shange, the same group that was being issued with firearms and fed by Master Shange.  You speak of a group and you say there were different people from different areas who were part of that group, have I misunderstood you or is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I was one of the comrades who used to be in the forest near Nkwale and also at Umgubaba with other comrades.

MR LAX: Now the question I'm asking you, which I asked you originally was;  besides the seven of you that were involved in this incident, how many other comrades were part of that group around Master Shange?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: There were many of us, I think we were more that 200.

INTERPRETER: He was mentioning that the number that mentioned, 200, includes the people who had escaped from Nkwale and other areas.

MR LAX: That's what I thought he said, but I just, for the benefit of everyone else it helps if it's translated.
	So these were people who had been chased away from their areas, forced out, they were refugees?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: And the young people like yourself, mostly?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: There were others who were older than us.

MR LAX: After you went back to Master Shange, you gave him your weapons.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: All of you?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: And you're sure about that?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: And then what did you do?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: After that I then left Umgubaba and went to Umlazi on the same day, and I left the others at his home.  I do not know what happened thereafter.

MR LAX: Where did you find the military uniform from, who gave you a military uniform?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: No-one gave me that uniform, one belonged to Senzo Shange.  Some of my attire was mine.  I had bought it from street vendors.  That is where I had bought the pants.

MR LAX: What was the purpose of wearing military uniforms?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: The reason I wore it was because it was warm and I was going out into the forest and I didn't have anything else that was warm enough to wear on that day.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: No questions from me, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR WILLS: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED