Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR MARTINI: You must have been shocked?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was.

MR MARTINI: I think you said you actually got flung to the ground?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR MARTINI: What did you then do?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We, as I have explained earlier, we tried to go towards the yellow ...

MR MARTINI: No, you, Mr Alexander?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Because I knew the centre, I ran towards the double doors which led towards the yellow and blue unit, we went into the, it is almost like an open area outside, but it was still within the parameter, there was a fence around.

MR MARTINI: Facing the front, let's call it the front then?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, we were still within the premises, we couldn't find our way out there, and we ran towards the main entrance, the front side, which was the entrance towards Springbok Street.

MR LAX: Can I just ask you to indicate on this picture which direction you ran in?  There is Springbok Street along the one side, and there is Klapperbos Street along the other side, and then there is Abduraman Avenue on the other side, and then there is Klipfontein Road on the other side, those are the sort of four accesses if you like.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR LAX: Let me just put on record, I have a photograph with a much broader focus, a wider focus.

CHAIRPERSON: It is different to the one I have, which is Exhibit D?

MR LAX: It shows all four streets?  The building is still substantively there.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Could I draw on there, or ...

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't, before we proceed, shouldn't we all have a photo or number this photo, because I see it is marked Exhibit P, but it is not the same?

MR LAX: Perhaps we can call it P1 and P2, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The first one that was handed in, that is the close-up version, which doesn't show Lower Klipfontein Road, will be P1 and then the wider angled lens photo, will be P2.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR MARTINI: We don't seem to have these documents, Chairperson.  I have P1.

CHAIRPERSON: We will get them both.

MR LAX: Be that as it may, the actual image of the building is just slightly smaller on P2 and for the purposes of this, you say you ran towards these other, you used various colours, blocks?

MR MARTINI: We cannot follow this, we don't have all these blocks and colours.

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect, if you listened to the question ...

MR MARTINI: The colours, we don't have ...

MR LAX: Just listen to the question, the witness referred to certain blocks, they aren't on the picture.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The blue and yellow unit.

MR LAX: He spoke about the blue and yellow units.

MR MARTINI: We don't have blue and yellow units?

MR LAX: With respect, they are not on the picture, Mr Martini, if you would just stop and listen.

MR MARTINI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini, they said they had a red unit which was somewhere else, near the foyer, where young kids played, and then within the building, they've got an area called the blue unit and the yellow unit which is the other side of the boardroom, but it is not reflected on the map.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, we are at cross purposes, I was - earlier there were certain markings on this plan, there was A is this, D is ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, it is not that at all.  It is not that.

MR MARTINI: I saw some yellow colours then, and now ...

MR LAX: No, that has nothing to do with it.

MR MARTINI: (Indistinct) I will try and follow Mr Lax.

MR LAX: From the nature of the photographs, I realised that there were certain colour codings on door frames, and those were the blocks that you were talking about?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now, if one looks at this picture, both pictures are I don't know what the, in terms of the compass, which is north and which is south, but if one looks at Klapperbos is on the right, and Klipfontein is on the left of the actual exhibit as you are looking at it,  as you are looking at it in landscape view, landscape as opposed to portrait, in other words horizontally, longwise like this.  Okay, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: If I turn it landscape and with the circle at the back, closest to me?

MR LAX: Correct.  The circle away from you.  The circle away from you.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Away from me?  Okay, the other way around.  Then Klapperbos would be on the right.

MR LAX: Correct.   Now with the picture in that orientation, which direction did you run in?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We ran towards Klapperbos side.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MARTINI: Okay.   And then?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There is a double door there, which we opened, and if you look at the picture still in front of you, there is, next to the road there is a parameter there, there is vibracrete with a fence on top of it, so we came into an open area, but we were still within the premises.

MR MARTINI: I accept that, yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We couldn't go beyond that point, and we turned back, came back through those double doors, went towards the foyer and exited the building towards Springbok Street side, which is the front entrance.

MR MARTINI: The front entrance, right?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR MARTINI: And then?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: After we were sure that all of our members were out of the building, I immediately took my bakkie and I went to go and park it in Disa Court.

MR MARTINI: Which, when we are looking at this landscape is to the right or to the ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Disa Court is, I think you attended the scene in loco?

MR MARTINI: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There are shops, at the parking, at the back of the ELC, there is a group of shops, Disa Court is just behind those shops.

MR MARTINI: Okay.  Now, is there any reason why you didn't run through ...

MR LAX: Just, just, sorry, are the shops on the Lower Klipfontein side or on the Dr Abduraman Avenue side?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Dr Abduraman, they are in that road, Abduraman Avenue.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MARTINI: Now, is there any reason why you didn't run through the doors leading to the parking area?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, we wanted to get out of the building, and as we ran out, the norm was that more than one bomb would explode, and we were fearful, we just wanted to exit the building.

MR MARTINI: But when you exited, looking at this thing, you were out, actually outside, but within the parameter of the building, it looks green on this map?  Were you not outside the first time you ran out?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The first time we ran out, we were outside, but we weren't out of the premises.

MR MARTINI: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Our cars were parked in front, we wanted to get away from the building.

MR MARTINI: You were out of the building, you were out in the open?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, but we were within the parameters, that is right.

MR MARTINI: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There was a vibracrete fence and on top of that, there was a wire fence.

MR MARTINI: So you couldn't jump over?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: You couldn't jump over.

MR MARTINI: Now, coming through he foyer, the way I remember, if you had run straight, you could have run straight through the doors leading to the parking area, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: You could have.

MR MARTINI: Is there any reason why you didn't do that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Because my car was parked in front of the building.

MR MARTINI: You just wanted to get home?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I didn't just want to get home, I wanted to get out and make sure that all of us were out and move my car away from the building, the bakkie, the vehicle.

MR MARTINI: And you took it home?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I didn't take it home.  I took it to Disa Court.

MR MARTINI: Disa Court?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: One of our members lived there.

MR MARTINI: All right, and then you came back?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I walked across, I didn't come back with the vehicle.

MR MARTINI: Yes, you walked back, and when you walked back, by then I assume that there was a lot of activity at this place?