Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-09

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: When Nontle Koliti was shot I called the Captain and policemen from town and they then referred it to the policemen in town to investigate it because the municipal policemen were involved in this.

CHAIRPERSON: Who investigated the shooting of Nontle Koliti?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: I do not know, but there was an investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: Was - did you also have to submit a statement?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Yes, Ii did.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall who you made a statement to?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No, I cannot.

CHAIRPERSON: When you returned after the shooting of this child, as you say it was you and Constable Khadi, you went and reported to Mr Nel?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: I said that when the police and the Captain came, Khadi left with the police to make a statement in town and Nel and them were all present there, writing down everything.  There was nothing more which we had to report, because they were present at the scene of the crime.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also made a statement?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the effect of the statement which you made?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: It is what I said there that Khadi shot at this girl.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a witness for the family that Khadi shot this girl?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: The Attorney said that I should not say that Khadi shot the children, hence we went to the scene of the crime.  I was told to say that I was with Khadi.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the Attorney ask you not to say that Khadi had shot?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: He told me not to say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you explain that Khadi shot this person, shot the girl?  So would the court records reflect that you actually said from the beginning that Khadi shot this girl?  Were there any steps taken by the municipality to compensate the family for the loss of this girl?  Did that not upset you?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever come into contact with the family of this girl after her death?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you ever think or deem it important to meet with the family of this girl?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: How?

CHAIRPERSON: By going there?  You were the person who was present when Khadi shot this girl, didn't you ever deem it important after the accusation that you had also shot this girl that you should go to the family and try and explain to them about Khadi having shot this girl?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: They had heard it that day already because this
lady that was selling vegetables had told them and even then if you were a suspect in a location, your house would be burnt immediately or if they knew, if they were after you and you went to a particular house, they would go to  you at that house and corner you there and people would be regarded as informers thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that you don't have any problem with these people, that you are living harmoniously?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No, there is no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntsiki Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Mr Koti, legally speaking when someone breaks the law before you, for example when someone steals before you, what is your duty as a policeman?  When anyone, when you as a policeman see someone killing another person, what do you as policeman have to do?
 When you see a policeman shooting or you see somebody shooting anyone else or killing anyone else, what is your duty as a policeman?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: I explained that like Khadi who had shot someone before me, I called the Captain to say what was happening.

ADV SANDI: Before Khadi shot this girl, you say in your statement that you were in J-Street and there were children who were insulting you, calling you Amangundwana and Khadi got out of the car with his gun, saying that he was going to see who these children were.
 Did he tell you what his intentions were?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No, he said he was just going to see who these children were.

ADV SANDI: Armed with his firearm?  What did you think he was going to do when he went there?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: I didn't think he was going to do anything because
they were still very small.  Because when somebody called me Amangundwana, Amangundwana refers to a mine rat, a rat found in  mines and I didn't regard it as an insult.

ADV SANDI: ; At the time Mr Khadi had already shot these children, did you ask him why he had shot at these children?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: I did.

ADV SANDI: ; Why did you not include that in your statement?  Why did you not say in your statement that you asked?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: I did say in my statement that I asked Khadi what was happening now and he said I shot the children.

ADV SANDI: Why did he say he shot these children?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: In his statement he said that he was being shot at by someone on the other side and he was firing back.  And then it became apparent that there were children behind this bush.  And that is why the court had to go to the scene of the crime to see whether he would have been able to see these children behind this bush or not.

ADV SANDI: Finally Mr Koti, in all your years as a policeman, has there ever been a time when you made a mistake with hindsight, you see that you did something wrong?  Has there ever been anything wrong which you as Mr Koti have ever done?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: No, I have never done anything wrong.

ADV SANDI: And is everything that you are here to dispute today, false allegations?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Yes, the one is an allegation and the other one, I was not involved in.

ADV SANDI: Are you very unfortunate to be accused of incidents where you were not involved?

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: An incident where I was not involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koti, we thank you for having come and answered our questions.
 We would like to inform you that we would like to have another opportunity where we can contact you and obtain further information from  you in our quest to provide the families of the victims with the truth so that there can be reconciliation so that when the police move around in these communities, they can do so freely and with a clear conscience knowing that they have made peace with these people.
 We thank you for having taken the first step in trying to assist us here by what you did today.  Perhaps there are still many more questions which we will have for you after having contacted this Mr Nel who you referred to and also others who have been involved in this incident.
 We would like to get to the bottom of this so that we can make the truth available to the family of the deceased, so that they can deal with this matter.  We will not make a finding at this stage, but when we are contemplating making a finding which is detrimental to you, we will definitely inform you through your lawyer and you will be allowed to make further representations.
 We thank you.

NOMBENQANA ALBERT KOTI: Thank you.