Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now my next applicant is Mzuamadoda Yengeni.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Yengeni, what language would you prefer to use?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Yengeni, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, the only thing I would like to correct is the date in paragraph is 1976, not 1972.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Yengeni, can you tell the Committee in your own words, your role you played in the incident where Mr Franciscato was killed?  What role did you play?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: What happened in is, we were from Gunti township, we were from Gunti location.  There were three of us.  It was myself, Mabuti Biko and Winile Veveza.  There was a message that we got that we were supposed to go there and I was one of the people who were there with Winile Veveza.
	We waited for the person who called us.  Mabuti Biko then arrived and he said that we should go with him to town.  We went to town with him, with Winile Veveza.  When we arrived in town we went through Alice Street.  In Alice Street what happened is I stood outside next to the gate.  
	Mabuti and Winile Veveza went inside.  When they were inside - when they were going inside Mabuti Biko said that we were there for an operation, we were there to take arms of firearms for the organisation.  I was expecting such a thing.  
	They went inside and they kicked this white man and then they went inside.  When we were inside we searched the rooms, the whole house.  Whilst we were searching we heard a shot in one of the room inside the house.  When we heard that sound I continued searching.  
	After that I went to another room and I then saw Mabuti Biko taking out firearms from that room.  We finished that and then we left the place.  We arrived next to the river and he asked us whether we took something from the house.  He then searched us and he didn't find anything else.  We went to Zukile Biko.  When we arrived at Zukile Biko's place, Mabuti Biko then left.  He was going to meet with Tamsanqa Duma and he left us behind.  That is what I can say about the incident.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What were you armed with when you went there?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: I was armed with a bayonet.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you use the bayonet?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No, I didn't use that bayonet.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	So when Mr Franciscato was shot at, you did not witness that?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: I heard a sound.  I was in another room when the sound or when the shot was fired.

MR MAPOMA: And then you came thereafter, when he was already shot at?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Then you - it's only thereafter that you searched for the weapons?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: After that my co-accused had left that room.  He went to the room with the trunk where the weapons were.  He then took out the firearms and then we left.

MR MAPOMA: So you did not first take the weapons and then thereafter shoot at him and leave him, that's not how it happened?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: He told us about the weapons - Mr Franciscato told Mabuti Biko where the weapons were when they were together.  We then went to that place and took the weapons and then we left.

MR MAPOMA: So when you took the weapons - what I want to get clear here, when you took the weapons he was already dead, Mr Franciscato?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes, he was already dead.

MR MAPOMA: So it's not correct to say that you shot at him when you were about to leave or when you were leaving?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: He was shot when we were already searching on the other side, when Mabuti Biko was trying to find out where the weapons were.  When he found that information he then shot him.  We then took the firearms and we left.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, thank you.  Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None at this stage, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't he shot with one of the weapons that you found in the house?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Mabuti Biko who was with him on that side, he went there with a weapon that was with him.  I can say that he used the weapon he had.

ADV DE JAGER: Because as far as I could gather he was shot with a shotgun and his brains was against the mirror and so on.

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: I wouldn't be able to answer that Sir, because I was not the one who shot him.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you see his brains against the mirror?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: I noticed that - I heard about that when we were in court, when they showed us the photographs of the deceased.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you receive training in arms, weaponry?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes, I knew how to use a firearm because I was trained in Fort Beaufort under the task force.

ADV DE JAGER: In your application you say that you've benefitted, on the questions 10(c)
"Yes, I did benefit"
If so, explain the nature and extent of such benefits, and then you say:
"I got the arms, ammunition and money"
What money did you get?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: The money that is referred to here is not from Mr Franciscato's home, it's another incident.

ADV DE JAGER: So you were involved in - the other incident, was that politically related?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes, it was related to politics.

ADV DE JAGER: Why?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: The reason why I'm saying it had something to do with politics, everything that I did I did it under the organisation.

ADV DE JAGER: Now who ordered you to do the other robbery, the one at the cafe?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Nobody gave me an instruction.  I went to that robbery because, and after that I reported to my commander in the township.  I told him about what we did, after the robbery.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't have any orders to do that?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No, I didn't get an order, I reported afterwards.

ADV DE JAGER: But you knew you shouldn't take money if you act on behalf of the PAC, wasn't that so?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: What I can say, I can't say it is so or not because if money was found it was going to be used, it can be used to help the organisation.

ADV DE JAGER: Now why were you searched about an hour before that to see whether you'd taken money from Mr Franciscato?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: The reason for us to be searched - the person who searched us will be able to tell why he was searching us.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't know why he searched you?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: No, but I heard it from him when he was telling us why he was searching us.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he tell you why he was searching you?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Yes, he said that he didn't want us maybe to hide something like a watch if we found it there, maybe there would be somebody who would recognise the watch and then they would find evidence and we would be arrested, and we were not doing that to be arrested.

ADV DE JAGER: And he didn't search you for money?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: He didn't get money.

ADV DE JAGER: I asked, did he search you for money?  Did he look for money?

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: I wouldn't say he was looking for money, he was searching for everything that would give evidence to the police so that we could be arrested.  That's what I thought.

ADV DE JAGER: But now what about the gun, the police could arrest you on the gun.  That could be recognised, it's got a number.

MZUAMADODA YENGENI: Please repeat your question, Sir.