Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Oh, no.

MR VISSER: You are not a dependant of either of the two of them?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You are certainly not an implicated person.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I am implicated.

MR VISSER: Who implicated you in the murder?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Capt Botha.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, we can't speak together, we can sing together.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I thought your questions was finished.  Who implicated me.

MR VISSER: My question is this.  Has anybody implicated you in the murder of either Mr Shabalala or Mr Ndaba?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No.

MR VISSER: So, you're not an implicated person.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I am implicated in the application for amnesty because Capt Botha used my name three times.

MR VISSER: Yes, does that implicate you in the murder of Mr Shabalala and Mr Ndaba.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, I am implicated in the application.  I received a notice from the TRC that I am an interested party.

MR VISSER: Yes, well we will address argument on that score to the Committee, but I just want to put it to you that in terms of the provisions of the Act, that doesn't make you an implicated person.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I received a notice from the TRC.  I have it here, saying "you are an interested party".

MR VISSER: Yes.  Mr Maharaj, what you have handed in as Exhibit J.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: When did you first come into possession of these documents?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I don't have an idea what date.

MR VISSER: Was it before this hearing in this incident commenced?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, no, this no, I dug up over this weekend.  No on Friday I was here,  Yes, I was here on Friday, I came with them, and I got it on Thursday night.

MR VISSER: Alright, well that's good enough.  You were here on Friday and you had them with you.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you tell Ms Poswa about the contents of these documents?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I have never had a session with them, enough time, I arrived here on Thursday, had a very short session and I told her that I have some documents.  They didn't appear to even know what these documents, they didn't bother to look at them.

MR VISSER: Didn't you tell her what the documents were about?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, Sir, the questions she raised didn't touch on that aspect.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, forget about the questions she raised.  Did you or did you not tell Ms Poswa that you have documents which you wish to use when you give evidence.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No I said today at, during the break when we adjourned, because this morning I was here too.  Same thing, they were discussing what to do with the cross-examination of Gen Steyn.  So the break that we took this afternoon was, what do we do with you?  And that is where I drew their attention, I said, "Here are documents, I would like to introduce them."

MR VISSER: Yes, and are you saying to this Committee that the first time you ever became aware of the existence of these documents, was on Friday last week?  Is that what you're saying?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That I became aware of them?

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, Sir, I said I dug them up.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he dug them up on Thursday night.  It presumably means he had them.

MR VISSER: Alright, so you had them before Thursday night?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Would it be correct that at all material stages you intended to use these documents which you then dug up on Thursday evening?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: On Thursday when I came here, I sought for material that would give me some insight.  I had read the statements sent to me on Wednesday or so, by Adv Poswa, saying that the statement of Capt Botha says that Charles was an informer.  So I began to look for material that would throw light on this matter and in the course of that, came across these reports.

MR VISSER: On Thursday evening?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, no, no, no, the date.  Let me get the dates, Sir, correctly put.  What day of the week is 17th of August?

MR VISSER: That was Wednesday.  I'm told it was Tuesday last week.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Right.  It's either on Monday or Tuesday last week that Adv Poswa phones me and says she is acting for the Ndaba family, would I be prepared to come and give evidence?  I say, "What's it about?"  then I learn that it's about Charles Ndaba's death and the fact that it is claimed that he is an informer.  I say, "I will certainly be prepared to be available for the family".  On the 17th she faxes me a set of questions and phones me to say I cannot come as a witness, unless I prepare a statement.  I prepared a statement and faxed it through to her on the same day and then I start preparing.  I start looking on Wednesday for information and in the course of the search for information this is one part of the information that I put together.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, what is the short answer?  did you or did you not dig up this document, Exhibit J on Thursday evening, last week. yes or no?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: This would have been dug up, by the process of finding this document would have started on Wednesday and I arrived here on Thursday morning, so I arrived with it.

MR VISSER: When did you arrive here first, for the first time with it in your possession?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thursday morning.

MR VISSER: Thursday morning.  And it didn't occur to you to hand this to Ms Poswa so that she could alert us to this document, so that we could prepare on the document, it didn't occur to you?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I certainly mentioned that I've got documents, but they were more interested in debriefing me in preparation for the cross-examination of Mr Botha.

MR VISSER: So did it occur to you or didn't it occur to you?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It occurred to me.

MR VISSER: I see.  But it didn't occur to them?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It didn't strike a significance with them.

MR VISSER: I see.  You know what is strange Mr Maharaj, is that Mr Botha presented himself as a witness, he was cross-examined at length and nothing or basically nothing of what you testified here today was ever put to Mr Botha.
Let me be specific.  Nothing of the contents of Exhibit J was ever put to Mr Botha.  Now can you explain that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No.  You are concerned with the word that  you find it strange.

MR VISSER: Very strange.  I would change that to very strange.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Alright.  Then Chairperson, you'll have to bear with me.  Let's start and look at the times available.
Have you any idea what time I arrived on Thursday?

MR VISSER: No, but I've got a feeling you're going to tell us.