Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, I never knew Mr Visser was interested enough in politics to do such a thing.   I deny the allegation, I deny that Mr Visser and I did anything of any nature, of any political nature.   Mr Roodt, I am aware was involved with the AWB, as the chairman correctly states, I am not aware that Mr Roodt did anything politically with Mr Visser, though you perhaps have to ask him that.   He certainly had nothing to do with me directly.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well can you advance any reason why Mr Visser should go to the trouble of applying for amnesty, involving you and Mr Roodt in it, when you say that you had nothing else than business dealings with Mr Visser?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes, Mr Chairman, I can.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, what do you suggest?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I think the situation is fairly transparent, Mr Chairman.    Mr Visser was sentenced to serve a term in jail for a number of fraud charges.   If, however, he can find a loophole and prove that his fraud charges were political, then he doesn't have to go to jail now, does he, and therefore he can involve me, scandalise my name in the newspapers and various other things, in order for him not to go to jail.   It's a very deep self-interest story and I feel very sorry for the man, but I do not excuse lies and his damned lies in that regard.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what about Mr Roodt?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I have no knowledge of Mr Roodt doing anything of that nature.   I do know him, but I really don't know anything else about him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well we have been informed that he too applied for amnesty for the same thing, as far as I know.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: You would have to ask Mr Roodt, I really have no knowledge of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: But there would be other reasons, if Mr Roodt has implicated you in any way, there would have to be other reasons for it?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes sir, but in his case I have no idea why.

GEORGE BIZOS: And I'm going to put to you that, having regard to the manner in which you expressed yourself in relation to Mr Hani, there would have been no reason whatsoever for Mrs Derby-Lewis and Mr Derby-Lewis to keep any plan that they may have been involved in a secret from you?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I cannot agree with that, sir.   First of all, they did keep it a secret from me, and second of all, I was busy with other matters, they were busy fighting a by-election, I was helping them with that, I was helping them walk the streets, I was doing computer work for both Mr Derby-Lewis and for Mrs Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you were consistent with yourself, all those would have been minutiae in order to save the country by killing the anti-Christ?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Let me state that Mr Derby-Lewis was the morally correct option which should also be followed, so that at the end of the day I can say I tried every peaceful avenue.

GEORGE BIZOS: You wouldn't have, if he had mentioned it to you, you would have thought that the stage had not been reached to kill him?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No, I did not say that, it's in the hands of God, Mr Chairman, providence places certain events before you and possibly, had someone approached me instead of Mr Walus, then possibly I might have been that person, I don't know.  The point is, I was not approached, and I did not know anything of the matter.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me see if I understand you correctly.   You say that if Mr Derby-Lewis approached you to do it, you would have done it?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I looked up very much to Mr Derby-Lewis and I respect him as a person, I respect him as a leadership figure, and ...(intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: What is the answer to the question?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: The answer is that I would seriously have considered it and quite possibly I would have said yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, with that frame of mind, why should - which frame of mind was well known to Mr Derby-Lewis, why should he have kept it a secret from you?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Mr Chairman, I was not then in any position of leadership.   Perhaps that is a question you should rather ask Mr Derby-Lewis, I did not discuss that nature of strategy with him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.   Did you have anything to do with the list?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: With which list, Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: A list containing the names of the leadership of the African National Congress, the Communist Party, a few journalists, Mr Justice Goldstone and a few others.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: You're referring to the infamous list which was reported in the newspapers in those days, no, I was totally unaware of that particular list.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever go to Rotunda with anybody?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes I did.

GEORGE BIZOS: With whom?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I went there with Mrs Derby-Lewis and with Mr Arthur - I didn't go with Mr Arthur Kemp, he came while we were there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now why did you go to the Rotunda with Mrs Derby-Lewis?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: She had to take a bus down, I cannot remember to where, to a far away location, and I was basically her taxi service for the day.

GEORGE BIZOS: Weren't you too busy to be a mere taxi driver?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: For Mrs Derby-Lewis, not at all, sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, so great was your affection for the Derby-Lewis's?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Sir, when people sacrifice everything they have for a greater cause, who am I, who is much smaller and do far less than they, to refuse a small request like that?

GEORGE BIZOS: What had they sacrificed then?   Mr Derby-Lewis was earning a fat salary at the Presidents Council, Mrs Derby-Lewis was working as a journalist, what sacrifice had they made then?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Not correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, I don't know whether all this has anything to do with the present application.

GEORGE BIZOS: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There should be some limit to the kind of questions you put to this witness.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, it was in response to an answer which - now, you see, did Mrs Derby-Lewis on the way tell you that she was giving Mr Kemp a list in order to reconnoitre their houses?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No sir, she did not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or to do, that's a list which she required for the purposes, for journalistic purposes, for Mr Kemp to find out how these people were living?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: No sir, she did not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did she speak to Mr Kemp in your presence?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: As far as I can recall, they had a private conversation, I do not remember if they asked me to leave or not, I cannot recall that, but certainly nothing of a confidential nature was discussed in my presence.

GEORGE BIZOS: If this was an innocent list, there would have been no need to discuss it in a confidential manner?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: I cannot remember anything being discussed in a confidential manner, I did not, at the time, think anything strange at all.   I remember Mr Kemp coming, either to collect something or to give something, I cannot remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you call the list an infamous list?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Because of the way it was treated by the newspapers, sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well how did they treat it?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: The newspapers treated it as a list which had been drawn up as though it was an assassination list, and from what I gathered about the list, the allegations that that list was for that particular purpose seemed ridiculous to me.   Some of the names on it may have been suitable for
that particular purpose, but some of the other names are patently ridiculous.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I'm going to suggest to you that you are well versed with the Derby-Lewis's defence, both in their trial and their story that they told this committee, judging by your last answer, Mr Clark.

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That's not a question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you well aware of what the nature of their defence was at the trial and what the story is that they are putting up before the committee?