Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: I might just mention, perhaps I should have mentioned this with the McQuillan project, at a certain stage McQuillan came to give me a certain document.  This document was about Mr Ronnie Kasrils and one Eleanor.   I don't know whether that was his wife, but the name was Eleanor.
	There was an address in Golders Green in London and among others, it was stipulated that a hit could be carried out at any time.  That was stipulated on the document.  Surveillance had been conducted on the house and a hit could be carried out at any time.
	The same document contained detailed information regarding Messrs Aziz and Essop Pahad and their movements, their residences, their residential addresses, the places that they visited in London.  I sent this information into the system.  Later it was said that they were very impressed with the information, but that no action could be taken in London specifically at that point, because Mrs Margaret Thatcher was the only Western or European political leader who was still favourably inclined towards the South African government, to a certain extent and that no such action could be carried out in London specifically.

MR COETZEE: If I understand correctly, this completes your involvement with the CCB?  Is there anything else that you could possibly recall that you would like to add?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Not that I can recall, Chairperson.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, after your detention and much later, with the disbandment of the CCB, up to and including the dissolution, you indeed enjoyed all the benefits, such as medical aid, vehicle subsidies, and so forth?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: And the vehicle that you received, which you had indeed referred to, is that still in your possession?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I kept that vehicle until after the dissolution of the CCB at which point the vehicle was given to me, no one took it away from me or asked for it.  At a later stage, I traded the other vehicle in to obtain a different vehicle.

MR COETZEE: And was there any reason for you to believe that up to the dissolution of the CCB, you were not a member of the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, there was no such reason.

MR COETZEE: After the dissolution of the CCB, you went to DCC?  How did it come to be that you became involved with DCC?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I was approached after my Section 29 detention, after I was released from detention.  I went to the Attorneys who had acted on behalf of me, Scholtz and Botha, they had been appointed by the Defence Force.  I went to their offices and there was a telephonic discussion between the Attorney and someone else, who requested that the CCB needed to know what my financial needs were.
	I stated a certain amount which I cannot recall, I think it was R6 000-00.  They notified me that I should go the following day, that they had R12,000 for me.  I went there and fetched the cash.  I was instructed to go on holiday.
	When I returned from holiday two weeks later, a telephone number was given to me and I was instructed to dial the number.  The number was the personal car telephone number of Gen Witkop Badenhorst from Chief of Staff Information, Military Intelligence.  I spoke to him and he told me that he wanted to talk to me, that there was also an arrangement between me and him to meet with each other at Adv Hennie Goosen's offices, who was also acting for him in a civil matter at that stage.
	We were to meet two days later.  I met Gen Badenhorst there and he asked me if I wasn't interested in working for Military Intelligence.  I was indeed interested, because I didn't want to be unemployed.  He said that people would contact me.  This happened shortly afterwards.  I was recruited physically by two persons, two officers from MI, namely Col Terrence Skelen and Col Gerrie Bornman.
	It was just outside Pretoria where I had my first rendezvous with them.  Over a period of approximately two to three weeks approximately, I became involved and I was appointed as an agent with DCC.

MR COETZEE: Who was your contact person or how would you establish and maintain contact through the organisation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: My first handlers were Commandant Terrence Skelen and Gerrie Bornman.  I was given a pager and telephone numbers, and I was taken at a certain stage, to a smallholding outside Pretoria, near Lynwood Road and they gave it the name "Oom Gert se Gat".  It was in some form of a veil, one would go up a small hill and then in the descent after the hill, it was situated.  All activities would take place there henceforth.

MR COETZEE: Were you ever explained why you were recruited for DCC and what your tasking in the DCC would be?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I was told and it was immediately clear to me that those who had already established a network, did not wish to lose the network.  They also told me that MK and the ANC were very closely involved with crime and criminal factions and they wanted to expand the network that I had established, and that they were willing to finance it.  I also received such specific tasks as well.

MR COETZEE: What was the awareness of your involvement with DCC, was it an office where all of you had coffee together, did you chat about what you were doing there?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No Chairperson, indeed it was not so.  They made it very clear to me that I was functioning in a covert capacity, DCC was the covert section of Military Intelligence but that I would be covert in that covert division, in other words I did not visit the Arak Building at all.  The Arak Building was the heart of DCC so to speak.  I was not allowed to be seen there, nobody who was attached to me was permitted to visit the place.  It was testified here that they didn't know that I was working for DCC.  I didn't know that either.  When I heard him say that he and Wouter Basson and Chap Maree had been involved there, I was quite surprised, because I went to Chap Maree one day, I ran into him after I had had my hair cut one day, and I found him in the parking area, I offered him a job.  Then he had been working there for a long time already and he was even more senior than I was, and I didn't even know about it.  He didn't tell me either.
	I kept on with him, because I liked him.  I respected him and I tried to get him in, because this would strengthen my position.  He didn't want to know anything, however.  So when I first heard here what was really going on, I realised that I had actually made quite a fool of myself, but it wasn't anything like that.  I functioned on a completely covert basis.
	I attended co-ordination sessions, I established my own substructure and I established a premises in Johannesburg from which I would operate.  It was a front.

MR COETZEE: What was the premises?

FERDINAND BARNARD: There has been various forms of evidence in the inquest and during my trial to Waverley House.  I established a brothel in Waverley along with Eugene de Kock from Vlakplaas, with whom I regularly had contact and had close liaison.  He is also a friend of mine.
	His involvement in the Waverley House has been misinterpreted by many witnesses as a Vlakplaas operation, but it was purely an MI/DCC safehouse and premises, but Mr de Kock provided certain logistical support to me.  He assisted me in furnishing the place, in fitting refrigerators, in arranging swiftly for the installation of telephones and so forth.  At the same time, I made the premises available to him as a place where he could debrief sensitive sources or just as a place to visit, or perhaps, if he wanted to set up someone in a complimentary position, sometimes he would just visit the place and come and see me.  Sometimes it would be 15 or 20 of them at a time, sometimes three, sometimes it was him alone, sometimes he was with others.