Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: We would like to go back to the question of instruction, and if you could tell us what was Mr Loedolff's instruction to you on the day on which you sat on this operation that became known as the Trojan Horse?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Can I proceed and read it to you?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You could just tell me in whatever way you wish, but I would just like to know what his instruction was.

DOUW VERMEULEN: As earlier mentioned I was summoned by radio from the area in which I had been working.  Major Loedolff gave me certain instructions and told me that I had, along with my section members, to follow a certain route.  I have already told you the route, it was Klipfontein, Belgravia, Thornton, Lansdowne, round Old Crossroads, back to Manenberg.  He also appointed the members to accompany me and he gave me instructions as to the kind of weapons to be used, with the instruction also that the people to be arrested were the people throwing stones or erecting barricades.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now earlier on this afternoon you mentioned that firearms carried birdshot, AAA, I think that's what you mentioned, is that what Mr Loedolff told you to carry?

DOUW VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: In terms of using the type of firearms and ammunition that you had to use what type of ammunition did Mr Loedolff tell you to use?

DOUW VERMEULEN: He said that the members should load their shotguns with AAA birdshot and also carry their 9mm sidearms.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now this is what he said they should carry and load but did he give any instruction in terms of what kind of firearms to use on the crowd?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No the instruction he gave me about the use of firearms was that this type of ammunition should be used only in case of an attack upon us.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And you wish to state this on oath, that this is all that Mr Loedolff told you to do, that you should use AAA when it was necessary?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I said AAA and birdshot that's all I can remember that he said.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I'd like us to move to the actual firing, what prompted you to fire your first shots on the crowds?

DOUW VERMEULEN: When the vehicle arrived at St Simons Road I heard the vehicle being hit and I could hear the windscreen breaking.  I moved into a standing position and I was facing towards the right of the truck.  I used the term in my statement that it was raining stones.  I saw a crowd of people around the vehicle and I realised that we were already in danger, specifically the two members in front of the truck.  And as a result of the objects and stones being thrown at the vehicle that is what caused me to start firing.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just want to be clear that we understand the sequence of events.  You say that you saw that there were people around the truck, at what point did you see people around the truck?

DOUW VERMEULEN: As I said when I got up and I could see what was happening outside of the crate, that was the observation I made.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: My original question was what prompted you to shoot and you explained that when you saw these people around the truck that there were many people you thought that the two men in front were in danger and so you started shooting, I am not sure that fits in well with the image of what happened as we saw in the video.  According to the video it doesn't seem to suggest that you had any moments to observe anything.  The video suggests that you jumped out and shot.  So if you could explain to us, if there's something that we are missing, I mean there could have been holes in your boxes so that you could see.  If you could please enlighten us precisely when exactly did you see.

DOUW VERMEULEN: ...(intervention)

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Sorry can I interrupt you, I just don't want us to go back to what you say you said.  What I would like to know, to find out from you is did you really shoot after making the observation or did you just jump out and shoot without observing the people around the truck?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No I started shooting after I had seen what was going on.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am really struggling with that response, I know that that's what you have told me, and you've said many times as you have said and you have indeed said so, but what I am struggling with is to understand your response to the question in relation to what we saw happening on the video.  So I really urge you to reconsider, to re-think and probably re-state whether in fact you really shot after making the observation or you shot without making the observation that there were people around you.

DOUW VERMEULEN: Maybe you should have allowed me just now to qualify my answer.  I think perhaps we would have been able to understand each other.  Please allow me to say once again that I am going to try and answer you.  When I got out from underneath the crate I could see people and I could see that the stone-throwing had already commenced and that caused me to start shooting.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: In what direction did you shoot?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I shot to the right of the truck.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: To the right of the truck, at whom?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I shot at the people who were stoning the vehicle.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You see this is really, it's very difficult for me, I might be a bit slow or you know slow to make connections but it's really difficult for me to understand what you are saying.
You are trying to explain to us that you made an observation that people around - you are in a box that is closed, that I believe has no holes, nothing to make it possible for you to see through it, you make an observation according to what you are saying, when you are in the box, you open the box, you jump out, you see who are throwing stones and then you shoot.  
Now we could accept that but given the fact that we have the benefit of the footage of the video which you saw earlier on today, there is no way that what you are saying now to us is the correct thing that happened on the day.  It doesn't seem to us that you actually saw because there was between the moments that the first stone was thrown and your shooting there is like a split second.  So the activities that you are describing now don't fit in with our observation or our viewing of this video.  So can you explain to us that contradiction please?

DOUW VERMEULEN: As I said earlier and I am sorry I have to use the phrase again, well I must start by qualifying something.  It wasn't a matter of opening the box, the box was open at the top and as I said I got up out of this box, and the moment I emerged from the box I saw what was happening, I saw stones being thrown and realised that we were being attacked and I shot.  As you said it happened in a fraction of a second.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I will just say this one last time and we will move on to the next question, but I just want to make the point and you are welcome to respond to it.  According to what you say you jumped out, you saw and then you started shooting, according to the video you jumped out and shot, that is what I am struggling to understand, and that's why I was hoping that perhaps you could explain the contradiction.  Maybe this is not how things happened, maybe you are in a position to review your position then I don't know, but I am really just struggling with that contradiction.
Now when you started shooting you were shooting at the people on the right-hand side ...(intervention)