Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

UNKNOWN: I am not sure, I think Oelie.

MR PRIOR: Is he one of the Natalians?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Okay. I think that is all thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt, you have no questions?

MS VAN DER WALT: No, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MR MALAN: Mr Venter, the thing which is bothering me all the time is also this question of the "Ystergarde", it seems to me the Ystergarde members were called from all over the country to Ventersdorp despite the fact that as the evidence has been lead, there was different places where people gathered together in the Western Transvaal.  Do you know of another place in the Western Transvaal where there was a big concentration of "Ystergaard" members?

UNKNOWN: No, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: So it would seem at least one person had an agenda which was to bring together the "Ystergarde" members who had a lot of experience, bring them together at one point?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And you say this must have come from the Generals in staff, that is your evidence?  You say that the Generals in staff must have planned this. Would that include the call-up instructions?

UNKNOWN: That is correct. Mr Terreblanche would have known about us being together there.

MR MALAN: Ja but this is still looking at the other possibility, why for example could Cliffy Barnard not have had his own agenda, and whilst he had contact with all the "Ystergaard" members he could have gotten them there himself?

UNKNOWN: No, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Or General Nico Prinsloo but an individual might have had his own agenda with regards to this big gathering of people.

UNKNOWN: Then it would not have happened in this context. Let me put it this way, we had the two divisions, the ones making the car bombs and the others the pipe bombs.  The two operations would have been separate completely if that was the case.  Mr Terreblanche had to know because the Generals in staff were involved, the Generals in staff were involved because Nico Prinsloo knew about, Nico knew it because Cliffy was involved, Cliffy because Koper was involved. There was no way if you look at the circumstances of the AWB and the head office, there is no way that this could have happened any other way because then everybody could have gotten into a vehicle and like the previous bombs exploded, then everybody would have gone separate into a vehicle and go and plant a bomb and then come back,  everything under the table, then it could have happened like that but in this situation it was planned and it was given to us in that fashion otherwise it would not have happened.

MR MALAN: But then it seems to me that it must have been planned that whichever bombs went out, whether from the game farm or the shooting range, it doesn't seem that there were any other bombs going from any other gathering point.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, that is why I am saying it was very well planned attempt, a pre-prepared attempt to do these things.  That is why I am saying we had to go and get the explosives.  Somebody told us to go and get the explosives in Welkom.  The pipe bombs had to go and get loaded after loads of them were made in Klerksdorp, so it was fine planning, it wasn't a question of like okay let's go and make pipe bombs, let's make things. The bombs were already there, that was the reason and that is why they got us together to go and do all the dirty work.

MR MALAN: Do you know how many pipe bombs there were in total?

UNKNOWN: I do not know, I did not count them, they were in bags but the Golf's boot was loaded.

MR MALAN: Would you know about the pipes that you took out and you talked about thick pipes, would you say they were 80, 300?

UNKNOWN: With the evidence that came out they talk about round about 20. There was these big sand bags - there might have been one or two in a bag. We stuffed them underneath the seats. We let the seats down and we placed all these bombs there right up into the boot. And later we learnt in the court that there must have been around 20. I did not go around and count them.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. A related question in a sense. It would therefore be correct for me to say that all the other people you say were gathered at other farms who had responded to the call-up those people really responded to the call-up on a defensive note. They had come together to be together with people of their kind to defend themselves. They weren't in an offensive mode as your specific group was. Would that be fair?

UNKNOWN: No Ma'am. I was under the conclusion that these people were called-up for war. It was put, it was said, it was told, it was brainwashed this is going to be "oorlog". This is going to be war. And once the things happened they disappeared. Not to say that this was a question of they were for the offensive. They were there to fight with us. And they never came to it. It never came to - the order weren't given to them to carry on from there. The people sold their houses, sold their cars got caravans and bought packets and packets of tin food for this war. I mean why the hell will a man sell his car and his house to go to war and then two days later or a week later sit in the middle of the street with nothing. They were prepared to go to war but they turned around and ran away. So I say they went for war. Nothing else.

ADV GCABASHE: You see because my interpretation just in my own head of the turning around and running away is a natural reaction where there is no major upheaval as had been predicted in the country generally. I mean black people were collecting all kinds of things. Because everybody thought we will be under siege, there is going to be a problem. So it wasn't just anything the Boere or the AWB's were doing as a special group. Everybody had a fear that things would go wrong. But this is why again I say in my interpretation of the events therefore is that they were there thinking that things would go wrong, they gathered with their families and friends and the people they are related to and when things did not go wrong they then went home or went back to where they thought they could pick up the pieces again. So they were there to look after themselves, to protect themselves and the people they identified with. Not to come and offend against others.

UNKNOWN: In a sense yes Ma'am. I can say that some of them went back to pick up the pieces. Others went back to nothing. They couldn't pick up pieces. So their motivation to get rid of those things to be on just you know protect the people around me and my family no ways. There were a more superior command or they had a different point of view to this because they would not go as far as leaving - I mean family splitted up, man and husband, divorce. Why would you go to this extreme measurements of just sitting at a place and waiting for might this happen or not? They went for it fully and it gone wrong. They had nowhere to go after that except walk back like dogs with their tails between their legs because there was nothing. And I won't I mean if I tell you we are going to war you sell your car and you motivated for this what is going to happen the next day if there is not war? To whom are you going to turn? That is the motivation I say these people had to go to war because they were prepared to do all these things and they turned around and they had nowhere to go. So the motivation behind this was for war, for empty promises that was made for us to believe in. And there was nothing at the end of the day.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.