Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR KUNY: I'm sorry, I must interrupt.  If you could just answer the question, when did you first obtain information about the kidnapping of the youths from the Methodist Centre?  We know that you subsequently went to her house, I'm interested in when you first obtained information about the fact that they had been kidnapped.

MR MOKOENA: We have explained - me as an individual or as a group?

MR KUNY: Well, you as an individual, could you answer for yourself?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, but I'm just explaining the difficulty that I have because you see you are linking this up with this reference which is a personal reference and that's what I've got difficulty with.  I've already explained that I've got difficulty ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can the Committee just answer that question?  When did you first hear of the kidnapping or the rescuing?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I wouldn't remember, I think we got it as soon as - I mean it became public and we were approached by various people to do something about it.  I would not remember the exact date when it happened.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: ...[inaudible]  If you go back to our submission, paragraph 21, you will find that we start that paragraph this way
"At the end of 1988 and the beginning of 1989"
So it is not as if we are able ourselves to say: "On such and such a date" but we're saying there were allegations that some young people were removed and so on, so we can't with precision say when did we come to know about this.

MR KUNY: If we can fix a time, it would have been prior to your meeting with Mrs Mandela on the 13th of January, as you have put it paragraph 25 of your memorandum.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: That's true.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Yes, that's true.

MR KUNY: Now Mr Mokoena, you have already indicated that you may have gone on a previous occasion to discuss questions of the rebuilding of Mrs Mandela's home, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: That was part of our brief.

MR KUNY: Is it possible that at that stage you may have raised with Mrs Mandela, the alleged abduction of the young men?

MR MOKOENA: No, very unlikely because issues of those - as I've already explained, would require a collective approach as opposed to individual enquiries because we were working as a team.

MR KUNY: Did you at all during this period - and I'm now talking about early in January 1989, communicate with Doctor Natu Motlana about the rumours that were circulating about the abduction?

MR MOKOENA: I don't remember - Doctor Motlana is a family doctor, I don't remember approaching him about rumours that were circulating about this particular matter.  ...[inaudible] would be in the context of him being my family doctor.

MR KUNY: If we can just go to the meeting of the 13th of January.  You state in your memorandum that the family insisted that the youths were not kidnapped and they were actually rescued from Reverend P Verryn, is that correct - paragraph 25, do you see that?

MR MOKOENA: Just bear with me.  Yes, page 45?  Paragraph?

MR KUNY: 25.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] go ahead.

MR KUNY: Was the allegation of the alleged kidnapping and assault, was that put directly to Mrs Mandela?

MR MOKOENA: Was the allegation put directly to Mrs Mandela, by who?

MR KUNY: By the Crisis Committee, by any members of the Crisis Committee?

MR MOKOENA: You heard when we started that our approach was a holistic one to try and resolve the conflict and not to be too attacking and antagonistic, I think that was what the Chairperson was saying - our convenor said.  Perhaps you would like him to repeat?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Chairperson, we heard allegations - we put them to Mrs Mandela, that is why we wanted to see the children, otherwise there would be no reason to ask for the children, so we did put the allegations - not in a confrontational manner, but we put the allegations to her.

MR KUNY: Do you recall which of you put the allegations?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Are you saying: "Do you recall in particular in this group put the allegations to her"?

MR KUNY: Yes.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: No, what I recall is that on any issue under discussion with her, all of us would speak, so I wouldn't remember who specifically said what but as a group we are certain that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just find out now again, how much more have you got?

MR KUNY: I have a few questions Mr Chairperson, they are relevant questions. I'm not on a fishing expedition, there are just certain matters that I do need to cover.

CHAIRPERSON: How many?

MR KUNY: If I could be allowed five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KUNY: I would also then ask that my questions be answered perhaps as shortly and as briefly as possible.
 What was Mrs Mandela' reaction when these allegations were put to her?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: She maintained that the children came to the house voluntarily.

MR KUNY: Was the allegation specifically put to her: "Look, not only is there a kidnapping here but there are allegations of actual assault on these children"?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I think we did put that allegation to her.

MR KUNY: As a separate allegation?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: As a - what would you call it, a set of allegations - we put to her a set of allegations.

MR KUNY: Let me put it to you on this basis - we're dealing with two separate allegations, we're dealing with a kidnapping and we're dealing with an assault.  Did you attempt to find out more information about possibly where an assault may have been committed and by whom an assault may have been committed - I'm talking about from Mrs Mandela now?

FRANK CHIKANE: For that particular meeting on that particular day, we put the allegations that children are alleged - the young people have been alleged to have been kidnapped and assaulted and we wanted to know whether that is true or not and she said it's not true and she explained why they were removed from the house and then of course we asked to talked to them.

MR KUNY: You see Mr Chikane, the difficulty I have with your answer is that - what you're saying is that as far as the kidnapping was concerned, she offered and explanation which was that the children had not been kidnapped, they'd been taken to her house in order to ensure their safety, is that correct?

FRANK CHIKANE: ...[inaudible]

MR KUNY: But what the assaults, her answer that she gave you didn't appear to explain ...[intervention]

FRANK CHIKANE: ...[inaudible]

MR KUNY: If I may just finish my question.  The answer that she gave you didn't appear to explain the allegation that these children had been assaulted, would you agree with me?

FRANK CHIKANE: The answer was, these children were removed from that place willingly and that there was no kidnap, no assault, they were brought for safekeeping and therefore those questions were answered.

MR KUNY: So your answer is that she denied in fact, that there was an assault?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you keep repeating, I mean you are going round and round and you're saying the same thing.  They put the allegations to her, she denied them and if it is two allegations, then you can't say: "She answered that one but what about this allegation" because they say they put to her that these young people have been assaulted and she says - on both those counts, "It is not so".  Now, why do you say: "She denied that" ...[inaudible]

MR KUNY: Mr Chairperson, I repeat the witnesses answer just for the sake of absolute clarity.  In fact, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But it is clarity, I mean did she deny - she denied 1, 2.  Why do you want to say then: "Did she deny 2" again?  What is the point of it?

MR KUNY: The point of it is that this is the first time this allegation - this is the first time this information has come before us.

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.