Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: That's correct I was a marshall for the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: : Before we proceed any further, can you briefly explain to the Committee what were your functions or what
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were the functions of the ANC marshals?

ANSWER: We were the ANC marshals, we were the African National Congress marshals and it so happened that during our time for struggle...

<UNKNOWN>: : Sorry to interrupt, as an ANC marshall what were your duties, what were you doing as an ANC marshall?   Why were you an ANC marshall?

ANSWER: Duties assigned to us as ANC marshals we were supposed to bring order during our mass meetings.   There was  gun that I used to carry every time when we had meetings, but after the meeting I would take it back to Comrade Papi(?).

<UNKNOWN>: : Your duties as an ANC marshall you are saying were mainly to restore order in meetings?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : Now the application before this Committee reflects that you are asking for amnesty for the act of murder committed on 21 July, 1991 at Ganana township.   Who did you kill on 21 July, 1991?

ANSWER: I murdered Zenzile Joseph Lamini, that was on 21 July, 1991.

<UNKNOWN>: : This Zenzile Lamini you murdered, who was he, how did you know him?

ANSWER: The Zenzile we killed I knew him as our own comrade, he was at first a member of the ANC and it so happened that Zenzile resigned from the ANC and he joined his own gangster that was called Kofifi, the gangster was called Kofifi.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why did you kill Zenzile, why did you kill this Mr Lamini?

ANSWER: On 21 July there was a mass meeting in the
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township that is Ganana.   At that time I had a firearm with me together with other comrades and as we were in the proceedings of the mass meetings we were discussing about the crime that was present in the township and as we were discussing a few comrades arrived and they told us of the problems that Zenzile have done.   They were reporting this to the comrades at a mass meetings and the marshals were chosen out of the mass meeting to go and fetch him.   That was on the day when we had our meeting.   I was among the group who went to fetch Zenzile.   We went to his place in his shack where he was staying, and when we came back with him he confessed that he was, to Mrs (indistinct) house on the 20th and he demanded money and when this woman told him that she didn't have money, he took the decision to rape Mrs (indistinct) together with his friends, his gangster friends.    They fastened Mrs (indistinct) husband and they raped her, then Zenzile after finishing this act, took a stone and threw it to this woman and he confessed with his own mouth that those were the acts committed by him.

MEMBER OF COMMITTEE: Mr Lebona, sorry I don't understand this piece of evidence.   Mr Lebona I'm trying to clarify each person.  The question posed to you is, why did you kill this Mr Nglamini, or let me phrase this question in this fashion for you to understand.   ...not my problem, what I don't understand is the evidence that thereafter he threw a stone at the woman, I don't understand what that means.   I don't understand what is meant by saying thereafter he threw a stone at her or at him.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Lebona to clarify members of this Committee this act you are referring to of Zenzile with this woman and the stone, where did it happen and how did it happen, can
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you clarify on that?   You are talking about a stone, the Committee wants to understand where does that come from?

ANSWER: This incident took place at Mrs (indistinct), that was on 20 July.   Zenzile with his gangster went into this woman's house and they demanded money, cash, and this woman said to them I don't have money and they took her husband and they fastened him and they raped the woman and after raping her, Zenzile took a very big stone and he crushed this woman on the head with this stone and this woman was lying down and he left with his gangster.  We only came to know about this matter on the 21st.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...he decided to crush this woman you are talking about with a stone, do you know the reasons thereof?

ANSWER: Yes I know the reasons, this woman was the member of the ANC Women's League, he knew, he knew here very well, and Zenzile was really intending to kill the activists of the ANC that is why he chose to do that act.

<UNKNOWN>: : Are there any other acts that you can enlighten the Committee about that?

ANSWER: There are acts sir, but they happened before.   There are three women who went to Zenzile during the time of his comradeship, that is before he was revealed as a member of this gangster.   These women wanted him to give them this things, and Zenzile took these three women and they slept with them the whole night.   The next morning the three women came back to the comrades to report what happened to them.   The comrades said to them go to the police station because this is a criminal act you have to open a charge.   When these women went to the police station it so happened that Zenzile was not arrested at all.   Comrade Bosakwe and other comrades took Zenzile personally to the police station
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for this act of raping three women.   He was supposed to take the names of other friends who were with him when they raped these three women.   On the same night of raping the three women he was present in the township and this indicated to us that there was a connection between this group and the policemen.

<UNKNOWN>: : You talked of the mass meeting that called Zenzile, what meeting was that, who called that meeting, who attended that meeting?

ANSWER: It was not on the same day where he raped the three women, it was a day on which he crushed Mrs Matelo's head with a stone and we were discussing the crime that was present in our township and on that same day while we were still at the mass meeting, that problem arrived and we sent marshals to fetch Zenzile.

<UNKNOWN>: : Kindly listen to the question that is posed and answer the question as it is asked please.   I'm referring to 21 July, you talked of a mass meeting.   The question is who called that mass meeting?

ANSWER: On the 21st the mass meeting was called by the executive committee members of the ANC Youth League, that was comrade Papi, he was one of them, and Bosakwe.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who attended that mass meeting?

ANSWER: All the comrades were present and the members of the community, they were all present at the mass meeting.

<UNKNOWN>: : What was the subject of this meeting?

ANSWER: The subject was the crime that was sweeping the Ganana township, raping, robbery, people were taking the community money and calling themselves comrades.

<UNKNOWN>: : How did then this Zenzile Glamini feature?

ANSWER: ...Zenzile Glamini injured another woman and then
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he fastened the husband with rope and an order was taken out that Zenzile Glamini should be fetched and brought to the meeting so that he can explain his act.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was Zenzile then brought to the meeting, if so who brought him to the meeting?

ANSWER: I was among the comrades who went to fetch him, he was brought back to the mass meeting.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...the purpose of you calling Zenzile into the meeting?

ANSWER: The reason was that we'd been discussing this crime and Zenzile was implicated because he went to Mrs (indistinct) house to demand money and he raped her and then he crushed her with a stone.   An instruction was taken out that he should come before the meeting to give reasons as to why he did those acts.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...to the meeting and then what happened? (Microphone not working for initial part of questions).