Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-10

DR MAGWAZA: 18A/10 "Every time when I go to school the car gets broken.  I think my father wants me to come and stay at home and look after you, so that when you die you die in my presence, because my father also died in my presence".  It does show that her life is affected.  I went to Pinetown.  I looked for a school in Pinetown and I did tell them that this child no longer wanted to be there and I must do what she wants.  One thing that I haven't even told my children.  She said she was going to kill herself.  She said, "If I cannot stay with you here at home, I'm going to kill myself.  When you get sick I must be next to you".  They took her at Greytown and she is doing standard 7 there.

DR MAGWAZA: We hear your pain.  I don't have any words to sympathise with you, but I can only say if there's any assistance you need, please, we are here.  Contact us.  Thank you.  I will hand over to the Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mama and your children, thank you so much.  We've tried to say words to empathise with you.  We thank you very much for the words from your daughter.  May her wish be successful.  Thank you very much.
/DR BORAINE
18A/6

DR BORAINE: Mr Chairperson, the next witness is Mr Patrick Hlongwane.  I would ask him to come forward, please.

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.  It is important that everybody knows this.  This Commission is meant to find out the truth and we must hear every single person who wishes to come before the Commission and is invited to do so.  The last witness spoke about the culture of democracy.  Part of that culture is the tolerance of different points of view.  I will not tolerate people being howled down.  I warned yesterday that I might have to clear the hall, because we are meant to hear and nobody must be intimidated from saying what they believe.  It may be unpopular to many, but it is their democratic right to hold their particular point of view.  I hope that you will demonstrate that you are people who know that we have adopted a new constitution and that every single person has constitutional rights - rights even to points of view that may not necessarily be those of the majority.  So please don't tempt me.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Chairperson.  Just whilst the witness is having the headphones - you don't need them, fine.  I'll come back to that.  If you'll forgive me for one moment, I did welcome Mr Ndebele, Minister of Transport earlier, but I gather he was still outside.  If he is in the audience, perhaps he could just stand for a moment, so that we can welcome him.  Thank you very much.  Mr Hlongwane, thank you very much for coming to the Commission.  Like any other witness you are welcome, and we are grateful to you and will listen to your story as you tell it.  I understand that you are going to give your
 /evidence in
18A/15 evidence in English.

PATRICK HLONGWANE: Yes.

DR BORAINE: That is right.  And you will be telling us about your going into exile and the torture that you endured in the camps.  In order to assist you in this, I'm handing you over to Mr Lax, but before I do that I must ask you to please stand and take the oath.

PATRICK HLONGWANE: (Sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  You are now under oath.  Mr Lax will take over.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Hlongwane, just for the record, you presently reside at Zwide Township in Port Elizabeth.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: And how were you at the time you went into exile?

WITNESS:   I was 28 years old.

MR LAX: 28 years old.  This was in December 1986.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   Correct.

MR LAX: Okay.  Would you take us through your story as briefly as possible and you will realise that we are behind time with our witnesses.  I don't wish to curtail you and to cut short your story, but if you could restrict yourself to the details relating to your situation while you were in exile.

WITNESS:   Yes.  I left South Africa in 1986.  That was in December.  And the reason for me to leave South Africa was nothing else but I went into exile to see the African National Congress leadership, including PAC and the PCLA leadership in exile, because by then in Port Elizabeth, where I'm coming from, we had a problem with the members of the UDF and myself I was a member of the Port Elizabeth Black Civic Organization by then and, therefore, I would say I was one of the people who were

MR LAX: /opposed to UDF,

MR LAX: 18A/16 opposed to UDF, because we realised that UDF was the forefront of the African National Congress.  So we had some problems and even a split within the organization itself.  So some, they favoured UDF, and then because we have been a splinter group and therefore we were also backed by the South African Government.  I would say the police at the time, when we fought against UDF, and then therefore I left Port Elizabeth for Johannesburg.  I went to Johannesburg and Germiston and I went to stay in Germiston 1986, and from then I went to Khotso House, whereby I spoke to Mr Sakkie Maqazoma, because by then I was looking for Mr Beyers Naude.  So he was not there because at that time he the Secretary-General of the South African Council of Churches.  So then I spoke to Sakkie Maqazoma.  Sakkie Maqazoma gave me some money, in order I should go to Botswana.  Really, I left South Africa for Botswana and so then when I arrived in Botswana I went to the offices of the United Nations.  Then I reported myself to them and then I explained my problem.  Then they contacted a rep of the ANC by the name of Oupa from Gaberone.  Then really I met Oupa the following day.  Then myself and Oupa, we went to Francistown.  When in Francistown then I wrote my biography in front of some of the ANC members and from then and then we drove to Zimbabwe.  Then from Zimbabwe to Zambia.  Then I asked actually the members of the ANC in Zambia that I would like to see the leadership also to explain my problem and also to tell them what is really happening in Port Elizabeth by then.  And therefore I wrote my biography and the man who was responsible by then, it was Mr - shall I say it's Legdonite (?).  I don't remember his surname.

MR LAX: /And then also

MR LAX: 18A/20 And then also Jackie Mabuza.  Jackie Mabuza was a bodyguard to the former President of the ANC, the late Mr Oliver Tambo.  So I wrote my biography and I confessed to them.  I told them actually about my role that I played in Port Elizabeth.  So then they were not happy, you know, about my statement that I made to them and from then and then I was taken to the place called RC in Zambia, in Lusaka.  So they in Zambia then - that is when I was questioned by Legdonite, Jackie Mabuza and then the late -the guy by the name of Chicks.  You know, he died in 1987.  So I wrote my biography, but they were not satisfied.  Then I was told to take off all my - actually, my clothes.  Then from then and then beatings started, you know, and then I was made to admit, you know, a forced confession, you know, and I told them, "No, actually, myself, of course, yes, I did work with the police in Port Elizabeth, because the police they had been assisting us in order to deal with the UDF".  So confessed that right, you know, actually myself I was one of the people that have co-operated with the police.  It's the truth.  So now they wanted me to commit myself with some other cases that I don't even know, you know.  And from then and then that is when the torture started.  Then I stayed almost about three months, you know, actually in the underground cell with the other cellmates, etcetera.  Until then Jackie Mabuza contacted the offices of the Deputy State President presently, Mr Thabo Mbeki, because by then he was the head of the DIP.  DIP stands for Department of Information and Publicity.  And so from then and then Jackie Mabuza told me that Mr Mbeki has instructed that I should, you know, conduct a press conference and confess,