Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-11

MR ERASMUS: I came to Port Elizabeth Mr Chairman in December, I can't remember the specific date but it was at the end of 1979.  Some of the security policemen there took me around and showed me around and they took me to a small black township to Walmer.  What caused this situation I can't say but one of these men, one person was talking to a black man.  I was standing a little way from there and then suddenly a big stone was thrown at me and I asked those people what was happening, and they said this is the situation here.  In this township no policeman is allowed, they are not allowed to go there because stones are being thrown at them and they never go there.  This was my first experience with Port Elizabeth.

MR VISSER: And further experiences, what did they teach you?

MR ERASMUS: It taught me as the struggle progressed and the longer I stayed there, that things were wrong in this area.  What I mean by that is you couldn't move about freely as a policeman and you couldn't enter the black townships freely.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus was this your first experience to find out what was going on in this struggle between apartheid and the rest, this stone-throwing incident.

MR ERASMUS: That's not what I said.

MR VISSER: You've testified that during the early 1960's you were exposed to the struggle pertaining to the political struggle.  That is what you are testifying.  Regarding normal policing Mr Erasmus, can you tell us what your experience was in the Eastern Cape and what the results of that were.

MR ERASMUS: Because of this struggle of the black people against the previous government, we could not execute normal policing, we could not do police tasks properly here and there because there were constant attacks on vehicles, houses of policemen and even on the people themselves and this meant that the law could not be enforced properly.  That's why there was a tremendous increase in crime and a low success figure because of intimidation.

MR VISSER: In summing up, the endless unrest and the violence in the Eastern Cape.  With which class of person was that associated?  What class of person did this pertain?  Who were the people who were involved?

MR ERASMUS: The people involved were mostly pupils from schools and this resulted from the school boycotts.  There were strikes because of labour unrest and then also the movement of Xhosas and they belonged to an organisation associated with the ANC.  These people caused this chaos.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus I'm going to read this into the record but there's an abstract from Seshaba, April 1987 which you found. I'll just read it to you
 	"1980 saw the development of a mass uprising in South Africa, an estimate of ten thousand secondary school pupils took part in a successful campaign for the boycott of classes in Cape Town, Bloemfontein, East London, Port Elizabeth, the Western Cape, Kimberley, Johannesburg and other areas which forced more that one hundred schools to close down and more than that caused 2 000 matriculants students not to write their examinations.  Violent clashes took place between the students and the police resulting in deaths on both sides.  Violence was the characteristic feature of the uprising as distinct from the 1976 uprising the 1980 events involved greater numbers of the working class acting either independently of in community with the students.

MR VISSER: What is your point of view regarding the  accuracy of the summary of the activities in the P E environment.

MR ERASMUS: This abstract according to me is a true reflection of exactly what was going on there in all these places as mentioned here.

MR VISSER: Resistance was part of the activities of the day Mr Erasmus. Just briefly give us an insight into what this embraced in your experience as a commanding officer.

MR ERASMUS: This pertained to boycotts, the burning of beer halls, delivery vehicles, attacks on black councillors and their homes, attacks on policemen and their homes, large scale intimidation, marches, and this had to do with the with the destruction of property and the killing of people.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Erasmus please just help me with this, as I understand it, and do correct me if I'm wrong, your involvement in this particular matter largely turns on the decision you took with Mr du Plessis and Mr van Rensburg to eliminate Sizwe Kondile.  As I understand it, that was a rational decision taken by skilled persons who thought this through and decided rationally this is the only way out.  The evidence you have given yesterday and this morning largely and correct me if I'm wrong, turns on the political background, your emotional state, your upbringing; what has that got to do with the rational decision you felt you were forced to take at the end of the day.  And if I've misunderstood you, please just correct me.

MR ERASMUS: I've already told the chairman that I am explaining exactly what was happening in that area which was under my control.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman if I may say so, it is not really a matter for argument.  I will certainly argue that you can't effectively decide on an application for amnesty of an applicant appearing before you who does not tell you where he comes from, what his background is, so that you are properly in a position to adjudicate upon his actions in the light of his background Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you are sufficiently experienced Mr Visser ...(indistinct) that we have had ample evidence of this kind of a ...(indistinct) in the past.  Other applicants have also covered this kind of evidence and my suggestion to you is that you should try and be as brief as possible to the relevant issues.

MR VISSER: Yes indeed Mr Chairman. That is what we will do; we in fact are going on to that point.
	Before we come to the next point in this region Mr Erasmus, there were bomb explosions, bombing attacks while you were stationed there.

MR ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman. Administration Council buildings, a Constantia shopping complex, the new Fort Building and on a railway line near Swartkop, and the close proximity of Lesotho was the source of concern where the ANC machinery was situated, from where infiltration was taking place.  Ciskei, Transkei and the Western Cape were also influenced by that proximity.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, if we can continue to the pertinent discussion regarding the facts and circumstances surrounding Mr Kondile.  Can you from memory try and tell us how you heard about this matter, what you were told and what you decided.

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I knew Kondile was being detained from time to time.  Mr du Plessis kept me informed how the investigation of this person was progressing.  The normal procedure was that on a regular basis reports had to be made to the security branch regarding the development of the interrogation and I personally was not part of the interrogation, but as from what I heard is that that person was trained or had been trained in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: Trained in what?

MR ERASMUS: Trained as an ANC terrorist and that he was very close to Chris Hani, being the MK commander for that area.  If I remember correctly he was a trusted companion of Mr Hani.  During this time I heard that the investigative officer Mr du Plessis, that he had travelled with him where he indicated certain places and people and provided information.  I know also from documentation which was sent to me to people in the Transkei, that he provided information about two people in Transkei.

MR VISSER: If I can interrupt you here just to assist the Committee, yesterday and the day before we heard evidence that you asked a written report.  Did you also receive other documentation which you've studied regarding Mr Kondile and all his activities?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct yes.