bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-26

CHAIRPERSON: Can I please ask people as they come it to be as quiet as possible, as the proceedings have started.  Thank you very much.
 Mr Thlapi, good afternoon to you.  Mr Thlapi, I know that you have waited many years to come and talk about what happened to your son.  You have come today to talk about Ramatha Nicholas Thlapi.  A young man from Ikageng, just outside Potchefstroom where you still reside. 
 Mr Tom Manthata is going to be helping you as you tell your story. Will you please introduce the lady who is with you this afternoon.

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: That's my wife, Mrs Thlapi, that's my wife.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Thlapi, I also welcome you.  Mr Thlapi, would you please stand to take the oath?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Thlapi.  Mr Manthata?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Thlapi and Mrs Thlapi, I hope that you are now comfortable. There is nothing threatening.  I would start with Mr Thlapi.  Could you please tell us, tell us about yourself.

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: I am Mr Thlapi, I am from Clockwe in Potchefstroom. I am working at the mlitary base at Potchefstroom.  I am a parent of six children, four boys and KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 J B THLAPI
two girls.  Unfortunately the first born is the one that I am looking for this time.   All the boys have married.  One girl is at the college.  The other daughter is in the secondary school.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Are you working?

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: Yes, I am working, Sir.

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: Which year are we talking about, when Nicholas disappeared?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-26

PROSECUTOR: Mr Thlapi, thank you very much for coming and giving the testimony that you have.  We see a lot of people in grief and experiencing anguish, but as I have said earlier on today, there is a special anguish that goes with a disappearance. It is just that uncertainty, not knowing what is the actual position.  Your testimony again exemplified that.  The response and the emotions of your wife were quite clear, underscoring that point. I have also said earlier that there are particular difficulties attached to disappearances.
 However, in your case it is slightly different, in the sense that your son was last in the custody of the police.  Obviously answers must be forthcoming from them, in regard to what happened to your son. You have also fortunately taken quite a number of steps in the meantime to try and ascertain the whereabouts of your son and to try and ascertain what happened to him.  We can build on that basis.   We have got a lot of information to go on, we have got a lot of references to people, professionals. There is the inquest, so there is a lot that we can look at and try and ascertain what the position is.  We will do exactly that, we will look into all of these records and we will have to liaise with you as we go along. But thank you once again for coming.  
 Your wife as been removed from the podium.  She is obviously taking it very badly.  We would advise you to speak to the briefers when they take you out.  They will
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inform you about the condition of your wife.  I thank you.

JAMES BARILENG THLAPI: I thank you, Sir.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

DR RANDERA: Is he still, do you know what has happened to him?

MARTHA M THULO: No, Sir, I don't know.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Martha, thank you for giving us your testimony.  As we said to others, we exalt you, and we say we are not doing according to the way we are doing our things.  We ask that God should help you.  We heard how you are suffering.  Even if we have more silver and gold, but we are here, we will try our best so that we may see what kind of help you may get.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-25

PROF MEIRING: Have you since seen the Strydom family?  Did you see them or speak to them after you left the farm?

MRS TLWAELO: I last saw them on the day of that incident, because we never went back.  We were told by the police in the presence of Strydom himself, that if we go back to his farm he should shoot us.  That was the last time I was on that farm.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you so much, Mrs Tlwaelo. Those are the questions I wanted to ask, but I can well imagine that my colleagues have a few questions to add.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mrs Tlwaelo, before you moved to this farm, where were you staying?

MRS TLWAELO: We were living in Bophuthatswana at Madibocho, it was a place called Madibocho.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What made you leave that area?

MRS TLWAELO: We were unemployed and we wanted to be close to cities so that we can get jobs. I wasn't working and my husband wasn't working and that is where he was appointed on the farm.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When you moved into this farm, what was the argument between yourselves and the owner of the farm?

MRS TLWAELO: The argument was that my husband was now working for him and my husband said to him we are far from the farm, wouldn't it be better to bring my family and he said that's fine with him, we can come to stay on his farm.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Now that was the agreement that your husband will get R150,00?

MRS TLWAELO: Yes.  We were suffering, nobody was working.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In other words, this monthly salary is the cause of everything?

MRS TLWAELO: Yes.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 I M TLWAELO

THOMAS MANTHATA: In other words, would you reconcile with this White person if he can be approached to pay you the R150,00?

MRS TLWAELO: I don't mind the money, I am just worried about my furniture, my belongings, everything. I wonder what state are they in now, because they have been left unattended.  I am just concerned about my furniture.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I thank you.

DR RADERA: Mrs Tlwaelo, thank you very much for coming.  You too have come all the way from Ventersdorp.  Many people have, as we travel through particularly the farming communites of the North West Province, have come and asked us what about this incident or that incident that happened on the farms. Your story, I hope, provides an opportunity to all those people who have worked on the farms and who have felt that their rights have been violated, that your story gives substance to all those people.  I thank you very much for coming and sharing your history with us today.
 Thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-12

DR RANDERA: You also said that the people who attacked your house and killed your fiancee then jumped into the Casper.  Is that right?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: Yes, that is correct.  They climbed into the Casper.

DR RANDERA: And the police were driving the Casper?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: They were in their uniforms?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: Yes, they were in uniform and after they left there were certain police boots that were left and we knew that they did not belong to any of us.  When we ran away we also left those boots there.

DR RANDERA: Did you lay a charge?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: Yes, I went to report the matter to the police.

DR RANDERA: And what happened after that?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: We were told that we should go to Johannesburg to attend the case and we heard that the matter had been finalised.

DR RANDERA: You were not called as a witness at any time?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: At no stage was I called.

DR RANDERA: Did you attend any of the court proceedings because we heard earlier on that seven people were charged and then they were acquitted.  Were you not part of those proceedings?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: No, I was never called.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  I do not have any other questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Vuyukazi, we sympathise with you.  We hope that now that you have spoken about this matter, you will feel that a certain load has been taken off your shoulders.  What I want to know is, is Swanepoel still in Swanieville.

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: No, he is no longer there.
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7 T V APRIL

CHAIRPERSON: Who is in control of the area?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: I do not know who controls the area at the present moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still paying the rent in the same manner?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: No, we no longer pay any money for the rent.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any peace prevailing in Swanieville?

THELMA VUYUKAZIE APRIL: Yes, according to my own observation, I think there is peace.

CHAIRPERSON: We appreciate the fact that you have showed up.  We shall try by all means to investigate the matter.  As you know the matter was heard and the perpetrators were found not guilty.  That is what we can tell you.  Thank you very much.
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-13

DR RANDERA: We then go to Bethalsdal and in the last two cases we are coming back to Mothlakeng, people from Mothlakeng and Randfontein, although the last cases relate to a bombing that took place in Johannesburg. The parents of the person who died live in Randfontein.  So that is the programme for the day.
 I just want to make a few announcements.  The boxes for interpretation, the languages that we are covering again today; on one it is Afrikaans; two is English; three is Zulu or Xhosa; and four Twswana or Sotho.
 I just want to say that please, when you leave the hall, whether it is at tea break or lunch time, can you please leave these boxes behind. Yesterday we lost two.  You can't use these outside the service that we are providing here. So if people mistakenly took those boxes away yesterday, can they please return it to my colleague in the corner on that side.
 Thank you very much.  I just want to introduce my panel. On my right-hand side we have Ms Joyce Seroke, who is a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and based here in Johannesburg. On the left-hand side Mr Wynand Malan, who is the deputy chair of the Human Rights Violation Committee and also based at the Johannesburg office.  My name is Dr Fazel Randera, I am also a member of the Human 
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Rights Violations Committee.  I would please like to call Mrs Amina Desai who is our first witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Desai, good morning.

AMINA DESAI: Good morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome. I know you are feeling anxious this morning.  Are you sure you don't want to have a friend sitting next to you.

AMINA DESAI: No, I am all right, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Desai, I am going to be assisting you as you tell your story today, but before I do that I am going to ask my colleague, Ms Joyce Seroke just to take the oath, if you will just stand for that, ma'am.

MS SEROKE: Good morning, Mrs Desai.

AMINA DESAI: ;  (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Desai, you live in Roodepoort, is that right?

AMINA DESAI: Yes, I live in Roodepoort, I have been living there almost 50 years.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are 67 years old?

AMINA DESAI: No, I am 76.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, my arithmetic is slipping.  My apologies. Mrs Desai, we are going as far as the incident you have come to talk about.  We are going back to 1971, 1972 and 1978.  It concerns your arrest, torture and both the mental and physical stress you underwent at the time. I would like you just in your own words and in your own time to take us back, and tell us what actually happened.

AMINA DESAI: Do you want me to start now?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming.  I understand you have come all the way from the Freestate and we thank you for travelling such a long way.  Before I ask you to tell us your story could you stand and take the oath please?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lesotho, please be seated.  Mr Lesotho, you are also ...

SPANKIE LESOTHO: Sir, I am having a problem.  Can I get a Sothoe interpreter please?

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, have we got a Soethoe interpreter?  Yes.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

SPANKIE LESOTHO: Yes, it is there.  I have a feeling that this Mopasi case came at the right time because it will be able to show that even in our group we had a splinter group.  There were those who were doing things on their own and we were involved.  I was not involved and I know of this case which you have just explained.  Unfortunately, my name just appeared wrongly.  Maybe, the speaker would come and testify about that.  He will be saying we wanted to say my brother, but he said me.  He is at liberty to explain his own version.  I do not mind if I am implicated in that incident, but I am 100% sure I was working at H & H.  I was at work.  I heard the story.  We know people who were convicted.
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There way it is explained and the way I know, those people were perpetrators.  It happened on the night that I was at work.  When we arrived at the location in the morning we heard that it is true that a certain combi and that van were of this kind and this has happened.  I do not want to go further, I do not want ultimately what they have explained to me.  They have explained to me what has happened, but I am just trying to explain the point that my name appears there wrongly.  Maybe that person wanted to say my brother.   There were two cases where I was appeared and I was convicted in the Supreme Court.  City Press, my brother's name appeared and then on the charge sheet my name appeared.  So I have learnt that there is a confusion of saying who is Spankie and who is Toko.  Maybe that person will be surprised if he sees me because he will be able to say maybe I did not want to say this person, I wanted to say his brother.  He is at liberty to explain saying that am I Spankie or am I Toko, but I know that I am clean on that incident.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lesotho I want to come back and thank you again for coming today.  You lost two people who were very close to you, but again, your story like your friend before you, Mr Mvudla, throws up the complications of what happened in Khutsong.  I would like to just say by coming here you have actually contributed and, I think, you have been very brave, because you have been as honest as you can in terms of how you reacted to situations at the time.  Some of it related to what was happening in the general community.  Some of them, specifically, to yourself because you lost your brother and your wife.  At the same time I would like
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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to take on the point that Dr Ally is making which is that today we have actually heard many cases where people were both victims and perpetrators.  We need to be mindful of the latter point as well because as we do our investigations, we need to answer questions from other people who are also coming forward as victims today.  I would like to stop there and just thank you again.  Is there anything you would like to say in closing?

SPANKIE LESOTHO: There is nothing further I want to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-14

V C LEVUNO: I had paid lobola. I have a child with one lady who is a nurse.  When I stopped working she said that she cannot go ahead with our relationship.  At the moment I do
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not have any income other than the pension. I cannot even support my child.

PROF MEIRING: How old is your child?

V C LEVUNO: He is five years and a couple of months.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you.  If you don't mind me asking you, the disability grant that you get, how much is that every month?

V C LEVUNO: It is R430,00 per month.

PROF MEIRING: Are you unable to work or do you think that if work can be found that you would like to work again?

V C LEVUNO: I cannot work because of the state of my health.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: We heard your painful evidence.  A person who was kept in detention from one prison to the other, from Bethal, Sunnyside until you ended up in Robben Island for so many years. We have heard of your torture which made you so ill.  You went to different hospitals, Verwoerd Hospital, Bethal until you ended up in Sterkfontein, when you were mentally disturbed.    You persevered with the struggle.  We hear that.  When you were in those hospitals where you were supposed to get tender loving care from nurses and the personnel, you were ill-treated like a dog.  Even that mentally affected you again.   We are glad you were given in your mother's care.
 We want to thank your mother for the care your mother has given you.  That is womanhood and we are not surprised.
 We thank you very much, but we are sad to hear that you want nothing to do with the community because they didn't take care of you. We hope that the support structures in your area and the ministers of religion who are present today, will try to help you to rebuild your confidence in 
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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the community.  We thank you.  We heard your requests.  We hope that the Truth Commission will be able to do something about those requests.
 We thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Maphosa, good afternoon, I am sorry about the confusion.  Please, at the end of your submission, I would like our statement takers to speak to both you and Mrs Enklapi so that we can be sure that we have got both statements.  Alright.  So, good afternoon to you.  I am sure it has been a painful afternoon to you as you have heard and gone back to that period that we are talking about.  Dr Russel Ally is going to help you in telling your statement.  Will you please stand to take the oath?  Joyce, you can take it.

MRS MAPHOSA: (Duly sworn in, states).

RUSSELL ALLY: Mrs Maphosa, welcome.  Dr Randera has already expressed our apologies for changing the order of the witnesses.  It is just that we thought it was very important to hear you because your case has some bearing on the case that we just heard now because you are coming to speak about a case involving abduction, assault and also killing and the people who you implicate as perpetrators are the so called Mazimzim gang and also the South African Police.  I am going to ask you if you would just go through your statement slowly.  Take your time and try and be as relaxed as possible.  So please, if we could hear your story.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mvudle, good afternoon.

MR MVUDLE: Good afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome.  Dr Russel Ally is going to help you in the telling of your story.  I would just like Ms Seroke to help you take the oath.  Thank you very much.

MR MVUDLE: (Duly sworn in, states).

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mvudle, welcome to you Sir.  Can you hear me clearly enough?

MR MVUDLE: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mvudle, you are coming to speak about quite a few incidents yourself and other members of your family, your brother and you are, hopefully, also going to be able to shed some light on some of the testimony which we have been hearing so far which relates to this conflict taking place in the township, in Khutsong between different groupings sometimes believed to be part of the same political organisation in hearing groups like the Mazimzim and the Gadaffis, Maschengas and others.  You seem to have been in a very important position as an organiser of ASASAN between 1985 and 1986 and perhaps had some insight into what was going on.
 I am going to ask you if you would just please go through your statement with us and then maybe later we can try and answer or try to get answers to some of these 
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 T MVUDLE
questions about what was actually happening in the township at the time.  Thank you.

MR MVUDLE: In 1985 at Khutsong there was an organisation.  At the time the ANC was still banned.  We were part of the ASASAN organisation.  The entire Khutsong youth at the time was a member of this organisation.
 Around March, June the school children in the township ...

RUSSELL ALLY: Sorry to interrupt you Sir.  March, June, what year are you speaking of?  March, June?

MR MVUDLE: 1985.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sorry.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to ask, we have talked about the Mazimzims and we have talked about the Gadaffis.  There has also been mention of another group in Khutsong called the Shangas.  Can you tell us something about that group?

MR MVUDLE: The Shanga issue involves a lot.  It is convoluted.  This organisation is formed of elderly men.  Elderly men who were retrenched from the mines because Carletonville is surrounded by mines.  Criminals would rob a lot in the township.  They would rob, stab and kill those people who were employed.  Some people would be badly injured.  The community in the township then formed a group that would fight these people, these criminals.  We supported that because crime affected us all in the township.
 People's businesses deteriorated.  People could not even walk in the evenings.  Portgugese people had launched bars in the town, in the city.  Therefore people would stay in the bars in the city.  We supported these elderly men because when they started fighting the criminals the violence subsided and people would walk around the streets, but then it got a bit out of control because amongst these 
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people there were some with hidden agendas.  When members of the ANC, that were the elderly men, and then there was the youth as well.  The Youth League would clash with the elderly men.  The elderly men then started attacking the members of the Youth League and there would be disharmony in the meetings.  That was something different altogether.  
 People in the township then realised that these people had a good motive initially, but things now, somehow, have gotten out of control.  People would just be attacked sporadically, even innocent people by the very same group.  The police then started fighting them as well.  This is when things subsided.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Tamsange, I do not have anymore questions.  You came here to talk about yourself and what happened to you and, of course, the death of your mother and we are very sorry to hear about the death of your mother, but from your own account you played a very important role in contributing towards where you are today in Khutsong.  I think, certainly from the Commissions point of view, what you have actually related to us today in terms of trying to understand, because it is.  If any of us ever said that the struggle was between black and white, Khutsong is an example of how, to use your own words, how convoluted that black and white struggle could become.
 We thank you for giving us your insights into the troubled times that township went through and we wish you well in all your endeavours in the future.  Thank you very much.

MR MVUDLE: Thanks.
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-13

MS SEROKE: At which clinic are you getting treatment?

MRS D D MVUKA: It is at Bekkersdal Clinic. I was getting treatment from Baraghwanath in 1993, but now they transferred me to Bekkersdal Clinic to get further treatment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mvuka, thank you for coming.  I would please appeal to you, just after you have finished with us here today, to speak to one of our statement-takers so that we can take the particulars of Kenny, where he is living, if you have his address.  Perhaps he will be willing to speak to us and give us some other information.  We have listened to your story and we are very sorry to hear about the loss of your son.  Our investigating team will follow up on some of the points you have made, and we hope we can come back to you and give you further information.  Thank you very much for coming.
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-13

CHAIRPERSON: While Dr Naik is coming to the table, can I welcome Ms Fatima Hadjad, who is a member of our national Parliament, welcome Fatima.  We also have one of our commissioners who was here yesterday with Ms Yasmin Sooka, welcome to you as well.
 Dr Naik, good morning and welcome to you.

DR K NAIK: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You are accompanied?

DR K NAIK: By my wife.

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome to you as well, Mrs Naik.  Dr Naik, you are also taking us back to 1971. My colleague Ms Joyce Seroke is going to be assisting you as you tell your story.  Before you do that can I ask you to stand to take the oath, please.

DR K NAIK: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS SEROKE: Dr Naik, we welcome both of you and in 1971 both you and Ahmed Timor were teachers at Roodepoort High School.  Would you tell us briefly what you are doing now, before you tell the rest of your story.

DR K NAIK: Well, at present I am teaching at the University of the Witwatersrand. I am a senior lecturer in the Department of Computation and Applied Mathematics.

MS SEROKE: Would you like to tell us now about the events
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 MRS A DESAI
that led to your arrest on the 23rd of October 1971.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-14

CHAIRPERSON: Rebecca and your brother, we are very sorry to hear about your brother Japie. We know if you don't know the whereabouts of a person you become restless as to whether that person is alive or is dead.  We heard your requests.
We will ask our investigative unit to investigate this issue. They will talk to the PAC to find out where Japie is.  Unfortunately we cannot force people to come and give evidence, but we heard your request that we should call Paul to come and give his side of the story, as far as he knows about Japie.  We hope that your family and your cousin's families will reconcile, and that Japie's issue should not be the cause of the conflict.  We will do our best in investigating, so as to find out whether Japie has died or is still alive. If he has died we would like to know where he was buried.  When you are through we will ask our statement-takers to meet you so that this person sitting next to you, you can give him Paul's address, where he stays.  
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: You have come to tell us about the treatment of your son, Vincent.  I just want to say to Mrs Enklapo, that I know you have made an addition to the statement, but you have not made a complete statement.  I would like you, if that is possible, to make a statement to our statement takers.  They are here today.  We are very sorry to hear about the death of your son, but thank you for coming as well today.  Thank you to you both.  That is Patricia Nombolelo Phasiwe.  Mrs Phasiwe, can you hear me?  Can you hear me?

MRS PHASIWE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon.

MRS PHASIWE: Afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: I know you have had a long day and we have almost come to the end of that day and soon you will be able to go home.  Mrs Phasiwe, Ms Joyce Seroke is going to help you in telling your story.  Before I hand over to her could you please stand to take the oath.

MRS PHASIWE: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  You may sit down.  Joyce.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Phasiwe, we truly apologise for keeping you waiting for so long, but I am sure you understand the situation.  You have come here to tell us about your two
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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sons, Pumsele and Putumela who were killed.  Could you tell us about that?  Please tell us what happened.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Phasiwe.  That brings us to the end of todays hearings.  I said in the morning that one person decided not to come today.  Tomorrow we will start at nine o' clock again and most of the people who are coming tomorrow are coming from Phokeng and Randfontein.  Thank you very much indeed for being with us today.  Can I just ask people to stand while the witnesses go out.
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-14

CHAIRPERSON: Mothers and fathers, truly we don't have words, but I am happy that the truth has finally come out. I know that having pain in your hearts, it is then that you get the light of what has happened in that mine. What I can say is, when we say this is the Truth Commission, Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it is the only truth which will help us to be able to talk about reconciliation.
 I want to thank you all when you say you have forgiven Zandile.  Can you imagine how he felt all these years with this pain in his heart. I would ask you all that that forgiveness which you have talked about should not end in this hall, but when you go back to your homes, in the communities, that you should show the very same people who are responsible in this terrible deed,  that it is possible to reconcile and reunite.  
 I thank you.  I know that a parent after seeing a child being blown up in smithereens, to the extent that he or she was not able to recognise him, and only helped by the clothes he was wearing, that all these years you had to suffer that pain.
 We hope you will make it possible in your area, in Kagiso, you will make it possible that Zandile will be accepted by the community. Even those who have doubts will know that today the poor child was not responsible for this terrible deed.  I know that is a good suggestion, but we 
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11
will take it to our committee, and then we will see what will happen with your request.  
 We want to thank you all, all who are here, we want to thank you very much.

DR RANDERA: Chairperson, as people are leaving and I hope they will listen to this as well.  I don't think we must leave the point of people who are mentioned as the alleged perpetrators, because you have said that reconciliation can only come with truth.
 Now three names have been mentioned.  One person by the name of Scarface. Mr Joe Mamamsela's name comes up over and over again.  He has said that he will not come to the Truth Commission, for several reasons.  At the same time we read in the newspapers that he has written a book in which he talks about these things that he was involved in, and that he is going to use the money that comes from the book to help the victims. 
 My question to him is:  why does he not come and speak 
to the families himself?  As they speak about the pain that they have been through.
 That applies to the gentleman referred to as Mr Ephraim as well.  The fact that he has now become a man of the cloth does not absolve him from what he was involved in.  He too needs to come forward, to talk about what he was involved in.  So that we can actually get to the truth.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much for coming and sharing your stories with us.
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-12

CHAIRPERSON: We realise that Mr Stellenberg.  We have a Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee within the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and I shall ask my colleague Professor Piet Meiring to answer that question for you.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Stellenberg, thank you.  While you were
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
15 P STELLENBERG
speaking I made notes of that which you said.  It is indeed the case that when we make recommendations with regard to reparations, several things would have to be considered.  Financial aid would have to be considered, but I have heard you saying that in a certain sense, your greatest need is further medical attention and that you need advice and support in this regard.  We take careful note of this.  I have also made a note with regard to the emotional injury you have undergone.  That you feel uncomfortable amongst others and we will indeed pay attention to this also.  
 As we say everytime, you must be aware that the Truth Commission can only make recommendations.  Eventually the Government would have to bring into being an office which will carry out our recommendations.  So we cannot fix everything by tomorrow, but ... what a person might have been and what the circumstances might have been.  We will happily give you this information.

PERCY CHRISTIAAN STELLENBERG: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much once more.

PERCY CHRISTIAAN STELLENBERG: Thank you.
KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-24

PROF MAGWAZA: We welcome you here and we thank you very much for having come forward to share your experience with us.

WITNESS:   Thank you.

PROF MAGWAZA: As a starting point I would like you to tell us more about your family.  We just want to know more about you and your family.

WITNESS:   Well, I was raised up by a single mother because my father died, a long time ago he passed away, and we - in fact I had four sisters, one of whom in fact passed away in 1993, if I am not mistaken, so I am left with three.  And then I also have a brother.  And in the family of six children I am the second one in the family.

PROF MAGWAZA: Are you married?

WITNESS:   Unfortunately not yet.

PROF MAGWAZA: Why unfortunately?

WITNESS:   Well, I am saying unfortunately because of, you know, my age at this point in time.

PROF MAGWAZA: Can you tell us what were you doing at the time when this violation occurred?  How old were you?  Were you still - were your working or were you still at school?  Just give us a sense of what were you doing at that time.

WITNESS:   When the unrest took place in Bloemfontein, or in the Free State or in South Africa generally, I think I was about - for sure between 18 and 19.  No, no, it was late 1979 I think, and then my active involvement started in 1980.  And then I was one of the people who established COSAS in Bloemfontein, Mangani Youth Congress.  We first - before we had Mangani Youth Congress we had Mangani Cultural Organisation.  That's how we used to call it before.  And I also, you know, had a close contact with the other trade unions and people who were like trade unionists in the - whatever, Free State generally.

PROF MAGWAZA: According to the statement which I have here the violation relates to abduction and torture at Ladybrand/Maseru border, as well as emotional and physical torture while in exile at the ANC camp in Zimbabwe.  Can you tell us exactly what happened.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-24

CHAIRPERSON: Good people, thank you for coming here to support this hearing.  Charles Dickens in one of his books, The Tale of Two Cities, speaks about the best of times and the worst of times, and also one of the biblical authors in the book of Ecclesiastes does itemise or categorise different times in his biblical ... (inaudible) ... based on the socio-religio conditions of his time, and I see the similar situation of our time.  But ours was the worst of times.  We have heard shocking stories, stories of dehumanisation of God's people by other human beings, and I believe that at the day or the time they were doing these things they were also dehumanised, because there are no decent people who could do these things to other fellow human beings.  We have heard about what has been happening on the farms, and I believe that the farms need to be investigated.  And we have heard about some of the doctors who, according to their oath, should be interested in saving lives, who were colluding with the forces which were killing the people.  And I believe some of the doctors need to be investigated.  And one of the bad things about what we are hearing is that some of these policemen are still employed by this Government, and maybe this is an indictment to our Government too of National Unity.  Ours was the worst of times, and we are still going to hear stories during these last two days, and I am sure we are going to hear the stories of the same battle.  We thank the Government of National Unity for having instituted this process of the Truth Commission, otherwise  /we would
we would not know about these shocking stories.  
Now we are going to close, and we are going to sing the national anthem, and please come back tomorrow at 9 o'clock.  Thank you for how you have conducted yourselves.
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  TO  1997/06/25
/PROCEEDINGS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Leandra — 1997-06-03

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we well understand that.  I would like to take up the point that Wynand Malan has made that in many ways this is an example of how far we are still to go in going along a road where communities live in peace together, but I would like to salute you for coming forward this afternoon in the way that you have done, because what you have done is made a contribution towards that.  It is still very painful, it is still very raw, it is still, as we can see from the public response, it is something that is still very much talked about in the community and is very important to the community, but by your coming forward you have made a contribution in how we can all move forward and how you particularly in this community can do so and work towards, as we are trying to do through the Commission, work towards a situation where communities do live in peace through understanding the past.  So I would like to thank both of you very much for coming forward.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Leandra — 1997-06-03

THOMAS MANTHATA: Yes, Reverend Mokwena, for our story to be complete I think we need to know, you remember when I asked a question against whom did they direct their struggle and/or to whom did they take their complaints, you know, for as you talked about the councillors.  What did they do against the councillors to get the answer that they could have been after?

TARZANI S MOKWENA: Yes, they did approach the councillors and thereafter it is when they staged these boycotts I suspected that this was due to the response of the councillors.  They were busy building bars, bottle stores and all these structures that we did not need in the community, instead of building houses and schools.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In this anger that the children were in did they kill any councillor, did they burn any councillor's house or business?

TARZANI S MOKWENA: According to my knowledge not on that particular day, if I remember well.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But do you remember on other days?

TARZANI S MOKWENA: Yes, it happened at other instances, but I have forgotten the councillor's name.  They broke into the house.  If I am not mistaken I think that was the day on which they were shot, but I am not really sure.  Then thereafter they were shot.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What has since become of those, of the councillors that they were fighting against?

TARZANI S MOKWENA: Nothing happened.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What I want to know is are those councillors still within the community and how does the community live together with those councillors?

TARZANI S MOKWENA: No, others are in power now, but the councillors have since left their respective positions.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Reverend Mokwena.

CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Mokwena, thank you very much for coming.  I think you yourself through your own experiences, through your own pain you have actually put your finger on it completely when you said that we asked the question why were these people not arrested, what was the need to go and shoot them.  This is a story, it is of no consolation to you, but it is a story that we have heard many, many times of a confrontation between the police, the local police and the youth where police open fire and children are killed.  Where they are, yes they are protesting, yes they have grievances, but in the protest they get killed.  I think that, as you have said, this is something that is senseless, it is something without reason and it is certainly something that we, as a Commission, will try and recommend, because what we are trying to do through this process is to ensure that we do not have the same type of culture where this sort of thing is not only possible, but it is actually fairly regular.  It is, we are moving towards a country, a culture which is completely different and where children do not get killed so senselessly.  So we would like to thank you very much for coming.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Leandra — 1997-06-03

CHAIRPERSON: Ma Molokoane, Mr Molokoane and Ma Kayana I would like to just end off by thanking you very much for coming here for telling us these full stories.  I think they fall into two parts really, because on the one hand there is the part which involved all their activities while the struggle was on and there is now the second part which is your understandable anger and frustration and possibly even bitterness which comes from not being able to find out more about the details that you need.  I think that is the situation as I see it and this is all the more bitter in the sense that from a, from one point of view one can say that what these people were doing makes them very much heroes of the struggle.  So you are seeking recognition for that, you are seeking for an acknowledgement and what we will do is to see what we can do in terms of following up to get more details, but I think what I would like to do is to support your appeal to these people who are still around, who were involved and who can possibly come forward with more information.  I would add our appeal to them to come forward and assist you with more information and I would like to thank you very much for coming.  Thank you.

SULLIVAN P MOLOKOANE: Thank you.  Thank you very much sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen I think what we will do now is take a short break.  We will not take a full half a hour break, but it is a very cold day and we do need to move around.  We will come back as soon after five past 12 as possible and please look after your headsets.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Leandra — 1997-06-03

CHAIRPERSON: Ma Mtsweni, thank you and Bosiswe Makwena, thank you very much for telling us this story.  It is, it again is something that we have heard from other people in other places which does not bear any comfort for you, because what, basically what we are talking about here is a military attack by the SADF on so-called targets outside of the country.  So it is an illegal operation in which people were killed and innocent people were also killed.  When we heard a similar story from some mothers in Alex in Johannesburg the question they asked was why was it not possible to arrest these people, why did they have to be killed and this is a question which is asked by a lot of people and a lot of times in our hearings.  I think that that gives us all cause for thought.  There is very little, as I have said before, there is very little that we can actually say to comfort you, because we cannot, the Commission cannot bring people back to life.  We can, if possible, make recommendations for the assistance in reburial and we will certainly do that and at the same time it is very important that you have come forward and that you have been able to bear the strain also of doing that and for that we would like to thank you.  Thank you very much indeed for coming.  Thank you.
 Before we break for lunch could I just please make an appeal for people to remember to leave the headphones behind.  We will now break for lunch and return at half past two.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Leandra — 1997-06-03

MR NKABINDE: Yes, my name is Abel Nkabinde known as M A Nkabinde.  I was born in 1958 in the area of Leandra.  I am the first Chairperson of the then organisation in this town which was called Leandra Action Committee which was established in 1980.  Then briefly, Leandra was established in 1904 by the, about 236 people who came together.  One of those people was the late Gertrude Lulu and then Andries Vakoete and the others.  So Leandra was registered under the Bantu Trust, what they called Bantu Trust Land Act which was the trust land.  That was in, from 1904.  Then between the year of 40 and year 1940 to 1960 ...
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Leandra — 1997-06-03

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Simelane, I think that we are in the position very much that you are at the moment and that is to watch and wait for the outcome of the amnesty applications which have been made.  I understand that there have, as you indicate, that there are, in fact, five applications that have been made and we will hear from that, we hope, considerably more, because we understand very well the pain that you must have had all these years.  It is a pain not only that of feeling that your daughter has disappeared and you cannot reach her, but also of not knowing what actually happened to her and finally not being able to know how she died, where she died and where she has been buried.  We will certainly follow up, we will keep a very close link, close watch on the amnesty process.  We will also see what we can do further about following up with the ANC, because they must have some information about her and then, as you know, there is a programme within the Commission for reburial of loved ones.  So we will be in touch with you about all those three major points and I would like to thank you and your wife for having the courage to come today and tell us this story.  We sympathise very much with you and we will do what we can to bring you the information that you require.  Thank you very much for coming.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Leandra — 1997-06-03

THOMAS MANTHATA: You do not even know whether he could have been involved with the youths who were meddling in politics so to say?

VELELENI A TWALA: No, my lord.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ma Twala, I would like to ask just one more question following on what Tom Manthata has asked.  I mean, do you yourself, because you have had a long time to think about all this, do you think there was any political motive, firstly for Jabu's killing and secondly for Josia's disappearance?

VELELENI A TWALA: I do not know, because Jabu was the first person to be shot in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean, what, the story that you tell us is very full of sadness and it is very difficult for, I think it is difficult for all of us on the panel to know how to respond positively.  We obviously sympathise with you very much for the story that you tell and we share your sadness, because we can understand that.  On the one hand you have a son that is shot.  On the other hand you have a son who just disappears and then there is no actual detail which will help you, because we all live by information.  So it is a very difficult story for us to react to.  What we will try and do, you have mentioned Mfondis Mokwena so we will try and follow up with him to see what more we can do.  You do mention in your statement that you have suffered medical problems as well.  If you could tell the briefers more about them, because there might be something that we can do there to help through the local authorities, but we would like to thank you very much for coming.  Thank you Mama.

VELELENI A TWALA: Ever since then my health deteriorated.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Louis Trichardt — 1997-04-09

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Machete, thank you very much for your patience.  We are aware that you have been waiting the whole day.  Sometimes it is not nice to be the last witness, but we thank you for you patience.  Could you introduce the person who is accompanying you.

MARUOINI MACHETE: Divius Shivenge, the one I am working with.

CHAIRPERSON: You are welcome Sir.  I will ask Dr Randera to do the oath.

DR RANDERA: Mr Machete, can I please ask you to stand.  If you will just repeat after me.

MARUOINI MACHETE: (Duly sworn in, states).

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Machete, you have come to tell us about what happened to you in 1984 and 1986, relating to the trade union to which you belonged.  Can you just give us briefly the story that you have come to share with us today.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Louis Trichardt — 1997-04-09

CHAIRPERSON: Just one more announcement.  The Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee is going to have a follow-up workshop in Pietersburg on the 3rd of May.  You will hear more about it from the Municipal structure in this area.  On the 3rd of May in Pietersburg the RSR Committee is going to have a post-hearing consultative workshop.  We invite all the people who made statements in this area to be in that meeting.  The full details will follow very soon.
 Thank you very much.