Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-08

MR LAX: If I could just add one thing.
Part of the problem is that the witnesses don't know
 /what
1A what your client's version are and that's why we want you to put it to the witness.  We may know what your client's version is, having seen the judgment;  having read aspects of the trial and so on and having sat through, for example, Section 29 inquiries with some of your clients.  We know what some of their versions are already.  The point is that the witnesses don't know that and that's really why you want to put it to the witness.
The other final aspect I would want to add, is that in due course, as I said earlier in this hearing, in terms of Section 32(2)(b), your clients will all receive in due course - may, if we decide to make a finding in respect of your clients, a further opportunity to get detailed substantive aspects of what we intend finding and to make representations in relation to those aspects.  So really, your clients, those who may be subsequently implicated in any finding, will get a second bite at the cherry at that point and your submissions that you're going to hand in to us as well, so really, we can't take it any further than that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I'd like to then continue with Mr Luthuli's cross-examination.

MR DE VOS: Sorry, is this Mr Luthuli now in the witness box?

CHAIRPERSON: That certainly is.

MR DE VOS: Well, isn't Mr Mkhize - oh, he's coming back on Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DE VOS: Sorry.

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, for the record, Maritz speaking
 /again.
1A again.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maritz, are you going to start?

MR MARITZ: With your leave, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll just swear him in before you do so.

MR MARITZ: Thank you.

DALUXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (Sworn States Further)

MR MARITZ: Mr Luthuli, I must tell you quite frankly, right at the start, that this is not really cross-examination.  This is an attempt to gain more information and possibly to gain some understanding of what transpired.  The first thing I wish to ask you is this and it may be of some importance, is that you mentioned that you received military training abroad to be able to become an MK member.  Do you recall that?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: Where did you receive your training?

WITNESS:   In the ... (inaudible).

MR MARITZ: Could you give - and when was it?

WITNESS:   It was 19 ... [break in recording].

MR MARITZ: Could you give us a brief description of what the training entailed?

WITNESS:   It was a guerilla warfare, a mobile warfare.

MR MARITZ: Now you made a statement to the ITU, I think it was somewhere in December 1995.  Do you recall that?  I think Chief Superintendent or whatever his rank was, Dutton.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: Was the person who was involved in that statement.  Do you recall that?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: And as I understand that statement, you then intended and it's quite a lengthy statement, you intended to make a full disclosure of what had transpired here in Natal.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: /Now

MR MARITZ: 1A Now in that statement you referred to the fact that you became - and I'm paraphrasing, I may be using the wrong words - that you became the commander of the Inkatha armed forces.  Do you recall that?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: Is my understanding correct?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: Will you tell us how that came about and when it came about?

WITNESS:   It's impossible to remember the year and the date and the day, but immediately after the meeting which we had at that base - I forgot the name, but in Empangeni there, it's 121 Battalion.  I forgot the name.  That was our first meeting.  People who were there, is Cor van Niekerk, Major Botha of the Special Branch, M Z Khumalo, Opperman and Cloete and others, whom I cannot remember now.  At that meeting M Z Khumalo said because the commander, because at that time I was only a Political Commissar, not a commander, because Mr Xesibe is not well, he feels that from today I will be doing - be a commander and a Commissar at the same time.  That is all.

MR MARITZ: Was that just in respect of the Caprivians at that stage?

WITNESS:   I'm talking here about the 200 who were trained at ... (intervention)

MR MARITZ: Yes, yes, the Caprivians?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARITZ: Now it's quite clear that as time went on, further combatants were trained, whether they were taken up in self-protection units or whatever the nature of it was, it is quite clear that other combatants were trained and inter alia, I think, that you took part in that training.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   Which ones now?  Which combatants are you talking about?

MR MARITZ: Well, people that took part and I once again refer to it as a war, because there was in fact a war being

MR MARITZ: /waged

MR MARITZ: 1A waged in KwaZulu-Natal, not so?

WITNESS:   Yes, there was a war.

MR MARITZ: Right.  Now the war wasn't waged just by 200 Caprivi trainees.  A vast number of people took part in that war ... [break in recording]

MR MARITZ: (END OF CASSETTE NO 1A)

MR MARITZ: (START OF CASSETTE NO 1B)

MR MARITZ: 1B

MR MARITZ: ... inter alia by yourself?

WITNESS:   By who?

<UNKNOWN>: by yourself.

WITNESS:   Okay, come.

<UNKNOWN>: Is that true?

WITNESS:   I don't know that.

<UNKNOWN>: Were other people not trained in a military manner?

WITNESS:   Which people?

<UNKNOWN>: Young people, young men?

WITNESS:   From where?

<UNKNOWN>: From Natal, from KwaZulu?

WITNESS:   From which organisation?

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Luthuli, please, I'm not here to answer questions, you are.  If you don't know, say so.

WITNESS:   I don't know.

<UNKNOWN>: So what was the extent of your armed forces which were under your command?

WITNESS:   I don't get you.

<UNKNOWN>: Well, I think it's - it's ... (intervention)

WITNESS:  Can you put it some other way?

<UNKNOWN>: ... it's a plain question.  What was the extent of the forces under your command?

WITNESS:   I've already told you, 200.

<UNKNOWN>: Only the 200?

WITNESS:   Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: That was throughout your involvement?

WITNESS:   Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now you heard the evidence of Mr Mkhize yesterday.  If you take the Esikaweni matter which he testified about, that was a case in point where other people, other than the Caprivi trainees were involved in the action that was

<UNKNOWN>: /taken.

<UNKNOWN>: 1B taken.  How did that come about?

WITNESS:   No, I can't answer that question, because you have already put it now that there was a war between the ANC and the IFP and then during that war people were fighting, not because they were trained as soldiers.

<UNKNOWN>: What were they fighting with?

WITNESS:   They were fighting with whatever they had in their hands, either spears or guns or home-made guns, petrol bombs, whatever they had.

<UNKNOWN>: And you say they didn't need any training to equip themselves to fight?

WITNESS:   Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now, Mr Luthuli, when the Caprivi trainees returned from the Caprivi to KwaZulu, will you describe to us what happened to them?  How were they deployed?  What did they do?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, the witness is indicating he wants to ask me something.  Mr Chairperson, the witness has requested to be able to speak in Zulu, he is struggling in English.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's what we expected him to do.

WITNESS:  Can you repeat your question again, please?

MR MARITZ: Yes, the question is this.  When the Caprivi trainees returned to KwaZulu-Natal, what happened to them?

WITNESS:   I will start from scratch.  Will you allow me?

MR MARITZ: AT THIS STAGE THE WITNESS SPEAKS THROUGH THE INTERPRETER

CHAIRPERSON: Please don't be too long, Mr Luthuli.  Just deal with it in stages, we don't want to take a long time with that, because we have - we've heard some of that evidence before.