Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-10

MR KNOETZE: The same for the section in page 289 where Mr Van der Schyff said to you:  "When you told this to your fellow applicants, when you referred to the start of the revolution:  this was the real McCoy, there had to be corpses, did you convey this in your capacity as commander in this region?".  I retract that statement of Mr Van der Schyff, he does not support that anymore.  If I can refer you to EXHIBIT 5, that is the amended application for amnesty by Marthinus Lodewickes van der Schyff.  The manner in which it was complied was that the passages underlined must be inserted into the original and that the parts in-between in brackets must be taken out.  If we for example look at page 3, the third paragraph, then you will see that he's evidence will be that the instruction to work entailed that there must be a roadblock and - page 3, paragraph 3 Milord of the amended application of amnesty.  That is EXHIBIT 5.  May I proceed Mr Chairman?  I refer you once again to paragraph 3 on page 3.  The content of that paragraph is as follows:  that Mr Van der Schyff at the Road Cafe did not know what the work for the evening would be.  Could you comment on that please?  That is was only said later what the work would be.

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct, Mr Van der Schyff ... (inaudible - end of tape)

MR KNOETZE: ... (inaudible) to look on Black motorists for illegal weapons?

MR KLOPPERS: That was part of the instruction Mr Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: I have already put it to you that he will deny that and by implication, denies this paragraph that the instruction was to look for a target group consisting of ANC, SACP alliance and he did not know anything about that.

MR KLOPPERS: Then it will only be him Mr Chairperson who did not understand it correctly.

MR KNOETZE: Then if I could refer you to page 5, the third paragraph where he says:  "I moved away from the scene and on the roadside of the Honda, I stood there.  Mr Visser came to me and said to me:  "Prepare yourself we are going to shoot", and that was the first time that I heard that we are going to shoot at people.  The next moment shooting started and it was chaos.  Then a paragraph is deleted.  "I went to the front part of the Honda and fired two shots with the homemade shotgun in the direction of the Black people.  I do not know if I hit someone, but it is possible that it could have been the case.  The shooting carried on for a few seconds and then ceased".  The implication, once again as I put it to you, is that he then heard for the first time, seconds before the shooting, that he will have to shoot.

MR KLOPPERS: He will be the only one of the applicants who heard the instruction then.  Like I said, the instruction was given earlier on that it will be the real McCoy.

MR KNOETZE: And then regarding the application, page 9.  If I can refer you to the top paragraph.  It reads as follows:  "Regarding the roadblocks and the shootings, I received my instruction from Kloppers and Deon Martins, although the first mention played the leading role.  If I can make it clear regarding the shooting, it is actually Etienne Visser as the messenger and through him I received the instruction".

MR KLOPPERS: I agree with that.

MR KNOETZE: So you confirm then that under instruction of you and Deon Martins, he acted on the instruction?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct yes.

MR KNOETZE: You see another aspect of the applications is that Mr Van der Schyff told me and my legal team, or gave us instruction that he was not detained with the rest of the applications, he was in another jail.

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: And he also mentioned that at certain stages there was tension between you and the rest of the group.

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman I beg leave to hand up a copy of a letter which has already been made available to legal representatives of this applicant.  Mr Chairman I beg leave to hand up the original to yourself.  May this be marked EXHIBIT 6 Mr Chairman.  Mr Kloppers have you had time to look through the document?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct yes.

MR KNOETZE: Do you confirm that it is a letter written by yourself?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Written to Mr Van der Schyff?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR KNOETZE: Could you just please read it aloud for the record?  Read it please.

MR KLOPPERS: Would you like me to read it out loud?

MR KNOETZE: Yes please.

MR KLOPPERS: I find it difficult to speak constantly.  Would it be in order if my legal representative reads it for me.

MR KLOPPERS: I will read it then.

CHAIRPERSON: Read it onto the record Mr Koetze.

MR KNOETZE: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't mind reading it?

MR KNOETZE: No I don't mind reading it.  Will you please correct me if I make a reading mistake.  Is that your handwriting?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct yes.

MR KNOETZE: On the right hand corner:  PC Kloppers, 943251.  Is that correct?

MR KLOPPERS: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: Pretoria Maximum Prison Service, it's 20 June 1995.  Is it the date when this document was written?

MR KLOPPERS: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: Referred to Mr Van Der Schyff, 94271489.  Is that my client?

MR KLOPPERS: That's your client.

MR KNOETZE: Pretoria Maximum Correctional Service.  Regarding irregularities in the AWB Rank.  It came under my attention that apart from the certain instructions from the leader of the AWB, through the General Staff Group, that none of the AWB members in detention or their respective family members, must become involved in negotiations with the government as it is contrary to instructions and a selfish action which was initiated by you individually.  (Transcriber's translation).  This was discussed with Oelofse on 16 June 1995 on which he gave the following instruction:  Firstly that you, as soon as possible, must explain this in writing, for consideration and secondly that the Generals will consider retracting all financial assistance.  It is even possible that the names of the AWB negotiation list for amnesty will be deleted.  Before the beginning of your own negotiations you were asked to act very carefully and to put everything else in the background.  You were disloyal and in the disloyal action you showed that you do no carry the interest of the rest of the group and it could be that the complete negotiation development can be undermined.  PJ Kloppers.  And did you sign there?

MR KLOPPERS: Yes I did.

MR KNOETZE: The intention of this letter was written to the AWB headquarters.

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct, yes.

MR KNOETZE: I put it to you that the tension between you and Van der Schyff led to him making his own application, individually, and through his own lawyers, prepared by them as well while the rest of you had the opportunity to work together making use of the same legal team.

MR KLOPPERS: Mr Chairman he enjoyed the same privileges.  He explained the negotiations to me and it was approved.  Nothing was refused.  This letter was to warn him in order for him to stop with these actions.

MR KNOETZE: It was a very serious threat?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct yes.

MR KNOETZE: And if I come back to the second part of my question, are you prepared to admit that he did not discuss certain matters with you and the other applicants in the submission of his application?

MR KLOPPERS: He was not present with us, he was in Johannesburg and we were in a different jail.

MR KNOETZE: So you do agree that it was done separately?

MR KLOPPERS: Yes that is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNOETZE

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt do you have any questions flowing from what has been ...?