Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Wheeler, I need some clarity about the membership issue of the AWB.   What did you do to become a member, did you sign a register, did you pay a subscription?

JAMES WHEELER: Yes, you also had to fill in a form, which I did, and you had to pay a subscription.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you receive any acknowledgement of your subscription, did you receive a membership certificate?

JAMES WHEELER: No, to this day we haven't received anything like that.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you expect such a thing, were you told that such certificate would be issued?

JAMES WHEELER: Yes, I assumed that people would come and see me at home and that sort of thing, but I assumed that people forgot to do that, and collections were also taken up at the meetings, party meetings, they collected money, and I then made my contribution.

ADV BOSMAN: How would you have identified another AWB member?

JAMES WHEELER: AWB members got to know each other at meetings, like for instance the one where we met Gert, and also when you talk to people, you find out how they are orientated, politically speaking.

ADV BOSMAN: And how did you determine from whom you could receive orders?

JAMES WHEELER: These people were speakers, and they were eloquent speakers, and I accepted that these were the kind of people who had authority.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you saying that anybody who spoke from the podium and who addressed a meeting would be a senior person in the hierarchy who could give orders?

JAMES WHEELER: It was from the way in which they spoke and from their demeanour, one could ascertain what kind of a person this person was and in what capacity he was involved and what his thoughts were.

ADV BOSMAN: Now, if you couldn't get hold of Mr De Bruin to find out how your contribution would fit into the wider strategy, was there anybody else whom you could identify or refer to?

JAMES WHEELER: I think so, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: In the bail application proceedings and in the papers, it seems that the braai that you and your friends had on that afternoon started at about 12 o'clock during the day, is that right?

JAMES WHEELER: It's possible.

CHAIRPERSON: To give, you to give us some indication of the quantity of alcohol that you drank from the start of the braai until the time that you and Mr Pyper went away in the vehicle?

JAMES WHEELER: Let us say six beers.

CHAIRPERSON: Quarts?

JAMES WHEELER: Yes, and a half a bottle of brandy.

CHAIRPERSON: Each?

JAMES WHEELER: No, how could I put it, we shared it.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there also other people present, so ...(intervention).

JAMES WHEELER: I really can't tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: There was also mention in the proceedings of whisky being drunk, can you recall?

JAMES WHEELER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you and Mr Pyper drinking neck to neck, I mean having about the same amount, or did you drink more than him or he more than you?

JAMES WHEELER: I can't answer you on that.

CHAIRPERSON: What would you say your state of sobriety was when you got into that red Sierra to - with the shotgun?

JAMES WHEELER: We were under the influence, I can't say to what extent, I can't say how drunk we were, but we were under the influence.   I had had more to drink than was permissible.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean that if you were stopped by traffic cops, you wouldn't have passed the ,08% blood alcohol, you would have been ...(intervention).

JAMES WHEELER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said in response to questions put to you by Mr Botha, that when you left, you were under the impression that the police were going to be phoned and told about what you were going to do, is that correct?

JAMES WHEELER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet you proceeded with your plan, or with your intentions?

JAMES WHEELER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do that?   Your intention was to go and kill somebody?

JAMES WHEELER: We were firmly convinced that there were other people who would make the same contribution to try and plunge the country into war, and I firmly believed that I was part of that larger plan, and believed that we were busy with a bigger resistance campaign, I didn't think that we were just two of us, two people committing an act by ourselves, we were of the impression that we were part of something bigger.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree that one would expect that if somebody's planning to go and murder somebody, or execute somebody, or assassinate somebody, and you had to plan it properly, you would take precautions not to get caught, like changing the numberplates on your car or not even using your own car, using some other vehicle that couldn't be traced to you, that sort of step to cover up your acts, and yet you say you go there, you go in your own motor vehicle, knowing or expecting that the police may well be telephoned and informed of it, but you say that's because you thought it was a larger operation, a small part of a larger operation?

JAMES WHEELER: That is correct, and that everything would have been in a state of confusion in the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that your (indistinct)?

JAMES WHEELER: That is correct.   There were also indications that the police would support right wing groups, which also turned out not to be the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Ecksteen a member of the AWB?

JAMES WHEELER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions, arising questions in re-examination?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes.   Thank you, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: The first aspect, Mr Wheeler, I'd like to refer to, your evidence during evidence in chief and during cross-examination is to the effect that you thought that you were part of a war which was about to commence?

JAMES WHEELER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And the organisation whose interests you wanted to serve by your conduct, who was that, or what was that?

JAMES WHEELER: It was the AWB and partly the CP.

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, with respect, I would like to refer to the applicant's application, on page 5 of the paginated documents, paragraph 11(a), the question is
"Were the acts, offences or commission executed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of or with the approval of an organisation, body, liberation movement, State department or security
force?"
And the answer given there is:-
"No."
My instruction is to apply to you at this stage for the amendment of that form, the answer should be:-
"Yes, on behalf of the AWB."
And my instruction is:-
"Also on behalf of the CP."
And I therefore request the according amendment.
...(tape ends)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Koning?

MR DE KONING: I don't have any particular objection, neither to standing down or the amendment, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, perhaps it would assist, you want to amend it to say, to insert the answer yes, if we could just get that ...(intervention).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...to get the answer that you wish to insert there, the answer is yes, and then is there any qualification to the yes?

MR PRINSLOO: "On behalf of the AWB and the CP."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the copy that I have of that application form, at present the answer there is, it's typed in "Nee".

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you want to delete that?

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we'll take that short adjournment for Mr..., what is the time now?   Perhaps we can take the lunch adjournment at this stage, I see it's ten to one, and then if possible if we could try to start at ten to two, we'll just bring the lunch adjournment ten minutes earlier.  We'll take the lunch adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha?