Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

MR SMIT: Yes, there were people from Natal.

MR MALAN: No, but also from the Free State, if I am not mistaken.

MR SMIT: I cannot say who came from which town.

MR MALAN: My question is if people came from Natal to Ventersdorp, what would make you think that there would be gatherings in Natal as well?

MR SMIT: That was the information that we received?

MR MALAN: From whom?  Why would the people from Natal then go to Ventersdorp, why won't they gather there?

MR SMIT: It wasn't a thousand people, it was a small handful of people.  I didn't say thousands.

MR MALAN: I asked you why do people from Natal come, if there is a gathering in Natal in any case?

MR SMIT: I do not know what the situation is there, I cannot give evidence about why he came to the Transvaal.

MR MALAN: My question is directed at something else.  My question is actually what is the grounds on which you say that there were gatherings countrywide?   The applicants said that according to their knowledge and perceptions, there were other gatherings within the Volkstaat area, but you are certain about the fact that there were gatherings all across the country.
	You first talk about the four republics, and the Cape was included and everywhere there were people gathering.  Where would the war then start or begin?  The evidence and you were at the Trim Park, is that we will start from a small place and we will then continue and later Mandela will then come and beg for a piece of land.  How are you so sure that they gathered all across the country?

MR SMIT: That was the information that I received and that is as simple as that.

ADV BOSMAN: From where did you receive this information, can you remember?

MR SMIT: Yes, it was either at a public meeting or closed meeting, talk was that people would gather all across the country.

MR MALAN: Didn't they say that people will gather from all over the country?

MR SMIT: I don't know if there is a difference.

MR MALAN: What does gather mean?

MR SMIT: It means to come together.

MR MALAN: You come together at  a certain point?

MR SMIT: I think the most suitable word would be points.

MR MALAN: How do you know that this was the planning?

MR SMIT: That is the information that I received.

MR MALAN: So you had other information to the applicants?

MR SMIT: That is possible, yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that some of the other Generals were present as well.

MR SMIT: There was Ackerman, Cruywagen and a third person that was not known to me.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did they have a meeting there or what was the situation?

MR SMIT: They basically, I wasn't in a meeting where they were present, but the previous evening they arrived, they slept there.  I cannot testify about meetings that were held.  The next morning they said the bombs looked good, continue.  We continue with the struggle.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were then arrested, is that correct?

MR SMIT: Yes, the morning of the 27th of April.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did the Jan Smuts then explode?

MR SMIT: At that stage I did not carry any knowledge of that and while detained, I heard about this.  They said look what you have done.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just tell the Honourable Committee how it happened that you testifies in front of this Committee.

MR SMIT: Out of my own free will.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you approach anyone?

MR SMIT: Only you as a legal representative.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Where do we start, Mr Van Zyl, do you have any questions?

MR MOTLAUNG: Mr Smit, there is something that I didn't quite understand regarding the way you are going to wage your war.  Is it your evidence that the bombs were actually targeted only at the black people?

MR SMIT: Did you ask me whether the bombs were aimed solely at the black people?

MR MOTLAUNG: That is correct.

MR SMIT: I would say that over the entire Rand area the greatest target was soft targets such as taxi ranks and so forth.

MR MOTLAUNG: Yes, I understand that you call some of these things soft targets, but the main import of my question is were all the bombs  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motlaung, I can tell you that he did give evidence to that effect.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now, you say that according to you, this was not racism?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR MOTLAUNG: And tell me, if this amounted to racism in your view, would you have gone on with the war?

MR SMIT: At that stage in my heart I believed and felt that it was right, that we should wage the war and that we would maintain that which we had built up.

CHAIRPERSON: That who built up?

MR SMIT: That which the whites had built up in their existence in this country.

MR MOTLAUNG: And you say that according to you, no innocent people were to be killed?

MR SMIT: No, I didn't say that.  I said that one would never find innocence in any war.

MR MOTLAUNG: Now tell me, the people at who the bombs were directed, the taxi ranks amongst others, were they not the innocent people in your mind?

MR SMIT: I have just said that there were no innocent people.  Take note, no innocent people.

MR MOTLAUNG: Maybe I don't understand the answer, what is the answer?

MR SMIT: I said that in no war would there be innocent people.

MR MOTLAUNG: That I understand that some innocent people can be caught in the crossfire, but what I am asking is these people at the taxi rank, the ones that you actually aimed to kill or maim, were they not innocent?

MR SMIT: Let us just get away from this idea of innocent people, there were no innocent people.  The aim was to kill and injure people, to do anything to disrupt the elections.
	In other words there are no people ...

CHAIRPERSON: Why weren't the voting places not blown up?

MR SMIT: The objective was to disrupt the election, it was not to take place and that is why everything had to happen before the 27th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: If that was the target and if the plan was to prevent the elections, why then didn't you blow up the ballot boxes?

MR SMIT: The 27th of April ...

CHAIRPERSON: Instead of putting people's lives at risk.

MR SMIT: Whether we blew up the ballot boxes or not, people would still have died.  The major objective was that these actions were to take place before the 27th of April, not on the 27th of April and not after the 27th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So the bombs which were planted on the 25th were correct?

MR SMIT: That is correct, before the 27th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is why I am asking why weren't the ballot boxes blown up before the 27th?

MR SMIT: Because they would have found another place to place the ballot boxes and hold the election.  The idea was to disrupt the election entirely so that it would not take place, so that people would not go to the ballot boxes on the 27th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: So bomb explosions would take place at the taxi ranks and that would have prevented the elections from taking place?

MR SMIT: That is what we hoped for.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Motlaung?

MR MOTLAUNG: Mr Smit, as far as the bombs are concerned, did you have any role to play yourself?

MR SMIT: No.

MR MOTLAUNG: I've got no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bracher?

MR BRACHER: Mr Smit, what are your full names?

MR SMIT: Johannes Coenraad.

MR BRACHER: Did you tell the story you have told this morning, to the Criminal Court?

MR SMIT: I did not testify in the Criminal court.

MR BRACHER: Did you plead not guilty?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: Were you represented by Counsel?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: Have you applied for amnesty?

MR SMIT: No.