Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

DOUW VERMEULEN: Chairperson, I think the quote should rather be "I did" and not "we did".  I can only speak on my own behalf.  Yes, I could not see before.  Yes I was in a crouched position in the crate and the moment I could see over the top of the crate, and the next sentence I say this with all due respect and not sarcastically, I came out of that crate with my eyes open, not with my eyes closed.  If that is the edge of the crate, the moment I emerged from above that crate I could see what was happening and that was what I saw.  And according to what I saw I realised that I had to react immediately or else I would die.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: But the video shows your head emerging and immediate shooting and I don't understand how you would have had time to size up the situation.

DOUW VERMEULEN: I've already said that it wasn't a case of emerging from the crate and leisurely looking around, I didn't have the time to do that, I just immediately saw what was there to be seen right in front of my eyes.  Yes, maybe I started shooting immediately after I had seen what I saw.  Perhaps it looked to you as if it was one movement, judging from the video, but I saw and I shot, I didn't shoot and then see.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Gobodo.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: This death and threat story, what evidence do we have that your lives were indeed under threat?

DOUW VERMEULEN: As you earlier said you already watched the video, I've tried to explain to you what the damage was.  Last night one of my family members asked me, Douw please tell me how you felt when you were standing there behind that crate?  I don't think the words have ever been created in English, Afrikaans or any other language to describe what I felt.  If I could find the words then I could tell you how I felt but I cannot find the words, and my hope is that nobody else in this hall will ever experience what I felt and experienced on that day, because it's actually indescribable that feeling that you are facing death.  That's the best I can do.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Believe it or not it is possible to understand and accept that you did feel under threat.  In this country especially wherever White people came into confrontation with a Black crowd the immediate response was that of fear, death, it is just the way we were brought up.  It is possible that you really did feel under threat.  But the point is you were a policeman, you had responsibilities, not only for your men but also for the people around you.  You are a policeman, you protect lives, tell us, I mean really when you look back did you think that that was a life threatening situation, really?   I mean looking back now do you think it was a life threatening situation or do you think that your mentality forced you to perceive it as such?  Can you honestly say that what happened on that day was truly a life-threatening situation?   We've seen the video, we saw two holes on the windscreen of the truck, but really to call it a life-threatening situation, can you honestly say with the benefit of hindsight, the benefit of all that has happened in this country, can you honestly say that that was a life-threatening situation?

DOUW VERMEULEN: You noticed that I walked out when the video was being shown. I have seen the video on a number of occasions and I really don't want to see it again.  I think the cameraman could have done us a greater favour or given us a better view of what had happened that day.  If he was able to record what had happened there in a three dimensional way then perhaps we would have been better able to understand what happened there that day.  I used strong words for what happened that day.  For instance that we felt that stones were raining down on us.  And I described my emotions and I am feeling quite emotional about it so it's difficult for me to talk about it.
But I must repeat that on that day I felt that my personnel and I were in danger of our lives and I am trying to get it across to you how that felt.  I believed that I was going to die there along with my colleagues.  I am not the kind of man who would just jump out and start shooting children because I have a mentality problem.  I also have children, I mentioned that earlier.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: When I say "mentality" I am really referring to what was going on in your mind.  You have already described that you were afraid and as I said I believe it is possible that you were afraid because you are a White man, you are a policeman, you are faced with a Black crowd and the mentality in the country is that whenever these kind of situations happened you must run for your life.  I mean it was a culture of enemy of us and them, enemy being anybody who is Black is the enemy. I mean in most cases, especially when people are involved in such a situation they are perceived as the enemy.  It's the kind of perception that was drilled in the minds of South Africans.  I mean part of the reason we are going through this process is to understand how all these things were possible.  Why did they happen.  And part of the answer lies in what goes on in the minds of the people who are involved in this thing.
So when I ask you the question when you look back, yes you were afraid, yes you felt you were under threat, but when you looked back would you honestly say that your lives were indeed under threat, that you could have died?  For example, you were in the boxes why didn't you just simply radio to the guy that just drive on.  You had been on the road, you went back up and down the road, you came back, you were in boxes, you hear the first stone, you saw the first stone and the second stone and the firing begins, now how do you explain that to us?  
And all I am asking is do you, when you look back, I really don't want us to belabour the point, but I just want you to respond if you can, when you look back now do you really think that your lives were indeed in danger considering the fact that you have children yourself, those were children throwing stones, there was nothing else, you did not hear any shooting going on and you started firing, but was it really a situation that was life-threatening?

DOUW VERMEULEN: If you would allow me Chairperson I would like to say something about what you have just said relating to whether it was a life-threatening situation.  You have used the term that it was a question of Black people and White people.  Fortunately I grew up in a home where the only distinction made in our home was how a person reacted or what a person's conduct was, and it was only on the basis of a person's conduct that he or she was labelled or classified.  I also used the phrase "so-called Coloured or Black friends", these are people who come and visit me, who stay over, who had meals with me, we look after each other's children etc.  I fortunately didn't have that problem that these were White or Black or Brown people.
If I was a policeman in the same area and this had happened right in front of my house then I would have launched the same attack in my own road even if I had shot my own wife and child in the process.  At that stage I saw it as a crime, as a personal attack against me and my people, and yes, what I experienced that day and what is so difficult to try and describe to you, I experienced as a life-threatening situation.  And according to my perception that day I thought I was going to die there and then that day.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am just trying to figure out in my head what kind of person you are who could shoot your own child and wife.  Nevertheless when you fired the shots and you fired at certain people whom you claim had been throwing stones, the consequence of that in court evidence that was led you identified, or one of the people you shot was identified as Shaun Magmoed, now can you tell us if you indeed did see Shaun Magmoed throw a stone at your truck?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Yes I did.