Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, but the question I am asking is, is it your evidence that your report, through the normal channels that you reported to, would have been communicated to those who investigated whatever crimes were committed in the period of the three days we were talking about?

MR DU TOIT: I don't have concrete evidence but I just believed that it would have been done.

MR NTSEBEZA: You would be surprised if it didn't form part of the report to Murder and Robbery for example, not so?

MR DU TOIT: No, the Murder and Robbery Unit I think would have been kept up-to-date by the divisional commissioner would have been kept up-to-date with the information.  I don't know the exact channels which were used.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  What were your sources for the report that you compiled on the incidents of the 9th, 10th and 11th?

MR DU TOIT: The sources I used for my report on the 9th and 10th, this big violence, I got from the community themselves, from New Crossroads, from Crossroads and from information from the inhabitants, the anxiety they suffered and also the motivation from the previous violence and the circumstances which led to that violence.  Those were my sources.

MR NTSEBEZA: I would like us to be more specific than that Mr du Toit.  You have talked of two factions, that is in terms of your own evidence, did you gather information from the so-called Ngxobongwana faction for instance, as to what was happening and what were the causes and why it happened?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, I obtained information from all places even from New Crossroads I obtained information from various sources.  I obtained information from everywhere.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes we'll get to those in time.  I am just asking specifically did you gather information from the Ngxobongwana faction from specific individuals from there?  I am just talking about the Ngxobongwana faction now.

MR DU TOIT: Yes I obtained information from them.

MR NTSEBEZA: And they told you what they perceived to have been the causes of the violence and what took place as a consequence.  In other words the events as they evolved.  They told you I will take it, that on the 9th this is what happened, on the 10th this is what happened, on the 11th this is what happened, did you get that information from them?

MR DU TOIT: No Chairperson, that information, the specific dates and the specific incidents were obtained from the operational rooms, the exact dates of these incidents.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am getting lost with respect.  Let me start again.  Did you, as an information gatherer of the nature that you have described yourself, obtain any information from the Witdoeke, from the so-called Ngxobongwana faction, about what they did on the 9th, on the 10th and on the 11th?  Did you contact anybody from that faction to say look, tell me, what did you do on these days?

MR DU TOIT: Yes that is correct.  Some of the Ngxobongwana group told me that their people had acted and they told me what had happened.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you compiled a detailed report on the basis of what they said they did on those three days, is that correct?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, what they said and also other people ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: I am just talking about this faction, don't tell me about others, we'll come there.  Did you compile a report about what the Ngxobongwana faction told you they did?

MR DU TOIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR NTSEBEZA: And is that a report that you submitted to the Commissioner of Police and the Divisional Commissioner in the usual manner?

MR DU TOIT: That is so.

MR NTSEBEZA: In order for us to be sure that you are talking about the same group of people the Ngxobongwana faction is what became known as the so-called Witdoeke do you agree?

MR DU TOIT: That is right.

MR NTSEBEZA: And the Ngxobongwana group was also sometimes referred to as the Vaders, did you know that?

MR DU TOIT: No, I know these people well but I've never heard about the Fathers.  This is a term I do not know.  I know about the old people they referred to but not the Fathers.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you telling me that in your entire employment history you are hearing it for the first time from me that the Witdoeke were also referred to as Die Vaders, is that your evidence?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes.  This term "Fathers" I have never heard before, they never mentioned this word.

MR NTSEBEZA: I am not asking whether they mentioned the word, I am asking you if you are saying to me under oath it is the first time today that you hear that the Witdoeke and the people generally associated with the Ngxobongwana faction were referred to as The Fathers, is that your evidence under oath?  You have never heard them referred to in that fashion before, is that your evidence?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, I've never heard this word Fathers before as referring to the Witdoeke.  It might have been in Xhosa but Fathers or Vaders I am not acquainted with that term.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Now did you also gather information about the events on that day from the other faction, the Yamile faction, the so-called Comrades faction about what they did on those three days?

MR DU TOIT: Yes I did find out.  Outside Crossroads I obtained some information and I found it from other groups ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: No I don't understand what you are saying, I don't understand what you are saying.  I am putting a specific and direct question to you, did you contact the other faction, the Yamile faction?   Did you contact Yamile and say just tell me what happened on these three days, I am compiling a report as part of my duties and I want to hear from you what happened, did you do that?

MR DU TOIT: No, I did not specifically to Yamile and his people because there was too much unrest.

MR NTSEBEZA: I would have thought that there was too much unrest also but you were able to contact the Witdoeke people, can you tell me what was the difference, that you are finding it easy to deal with the Witdoeke and gather information as to the details of what happens and you are not able to do the same thing about the Yamile group?

MR DU TOIT: Crossroads itself after that conflict was more peaceful and then I found some of those people at the administration council building and at Crossroads, not even in the area itself, Witdoeke gave me that information at the administration building.

MR NTSEBEZA: So is it so that your report was based on the one-sided version of the Witdoeke?

MR DU TOIT: No Mr Chairman it was not a one-sided report from the Witdoeke's point of view.  It was a report - it was an all-encompassing report not only from the Witdoeke's point of view.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did your report contain the accounts of eye witnesses from the clergy who were there, one of whom was arrested by the Police during the course of the unrest there?  Did your report contain their versions?  John Freeth for instance who gave testimony here yesterday.

MR DU TOIT: No, no, no, no Mr Chairman I did not get information from them.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you know that he had actually in fact been at the scene endeavouring to assist in keeping calm there, and that in fact he was arrested by the Police, taken to Athlone and later released?

MR DU TOIT: No Mr Chairman I do not know the Reverend.  I do not know about this incident, I was not there on the scene and I was not in the area during the unrest.

MR NTSEBEZA: You must have been a hopelessly inefficient information gatherer Mr du Toit.  It's either you are mendacious and I would not like to make that observation or you must have been totally incompetent as an information gatherer, what is your view?  I am putting it to you that you can only have been totally inefficient not to have known that Mr John Freeth in that area was gathering information and actually was arrested, or you are endeavouring to mislead us.  What is your view?