Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Menyatsoe on that, sorry Mr Terreblanche, if I might just intervene.  When you say you saw them shooting, did you notice the type of firearm that they were shooting with.  In other words were the firearms used rifles or hand guns?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Whilst they were shooting from this Mercedes I could not see what kind of firearms they were using.  I just heard shots.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Terreblanche if I may just for a second.  And when you got to the car, that is the question you have been asked, when you got to the car did you see any firearms?  That is the question Mr Terreblanche has been asking.  Did you see any firearms?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I never noticed or saw any firearms.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Menyatsoe, can I just get some clarity on this.  When you got there what was the position, physical position of the three people who were killed?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: One of them was sitting up leaning against a car with his back and one was lying on his belly.  I don't remember the third one's position.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, so you didn't see any firearms and you felt so safe there because you do not see any firearms.  You see a man who is lying down.  He cannot talk and you see two other men, one is sitting and one is still lying and now you start talking to them.  The war situation has passed.
	 You could never see, this is now in answer to the question of the Honourable Judge, you could never see with what they were firing whilst they were in the vehicle.  This is now beforehand.  Now you get there and you see well there is no firearms.  I want to put it to you Mr Menyatsoe that you knew that there weren't any firearms because before you got there they were already disarmed by another member of the police force.  Are you aware of that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have already explained that when I arrived there I did not notice as to whether they were armed or not.  I wouldn't believe that they did not have guns or they had guns because the person who was there at the time, during that incident is myself.  At that time, Mr Terreblanche, you were not personally in the scene.  I do not understand that you are telling me that those people were not armed.  I don't know what's the purpose because you were not there at that particular time, at the scene.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Yes, Mr Menyatsoe, I was not there.  Maybe you thought that I was the person with the beard if I were there.  Maybe somebody else paid for me or for my life, like somebody else who carried the guilt, this sergeant in that everybody believed that he committed these murders and you were in hiding and we hear about this now.
	I would just like to ask you, as a member of the police, I did ask you that before, but I was not ready with the equipment and everything and I spoke too fast.  This oath of loyalty that you took there where you also a while ago put your hand in the air and swore an oath of loyalty and truth, what can you remember about that oath that you took while you were in the police?  What did this oath say?  To whom must you be loyal?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: May you please repeat your question, Mr Terreblanche.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I am trying to make it as easy as possible.  To be a member of the police you have to take a oath of loyalty, that is now for any police, in any country.  Who did you work for, to whom must you be loyal?  Must you be loyal to the authorities?  Must you uphold the laws of the country?  Must you arrest criminals?  Must you protect the authorities against people who break the law?  Can you remember what you actually did there?  For what did you get that payment, your salary cheque at the end of the month?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: You are flowing, I don't understand your question.  Can you try to be precise in your questions because I don't understand them.  I hear the summary of your questions.  Can you be precise.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Menyatsoe, the initial question asked by Mr Terreblanche, can you remember the oath that you took when you became a policeman and if so, tell us what you can remember of that oath.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I took an oath that I would work for the community, I would protect the community, the government and to die for the nation.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you very much.  Your oath you took before God and that said or entailed that you must protect the government, and that you must even die for the government and the people and authorities.  Therefore if the government needed you, you could die for them or for other reasons in the oath.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't understand your question.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Is it correct that you took an oath that you will die for the state if it is in danger?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Now Mr Menyatsoe, when you then had that discussion with people who were lying there on the ground, then you realised that these people are coming to help the President.  Is that correct?  They are not coming to help the people around you but they are coming to help the President or what idea did you have of the situation?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: May you please repeat that question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was that after you had spoken to those three people who were lying next to the vehicle, did you realise that they had come to Bophuthatswana to help the President, the then President of Bophuthatswana.  That was the question.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I didn't say those people said so.  They said to me go and ask your President.  I did not say they were coming to help ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: I was getting the English and Afrikaans at the same time and I think that it happened with the other mics.  I wonder if the interpreters could just please repeat the answer to that question.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not say that these people said to me that they have come to assist the Bophuthatswana President, but what I said is, they said to me I should go and ask my President.  I did not say that they said they have come to help my President.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, you were then angry at the President.  You then yourself said that he did not want the people to vote.  You were angry at him.  You even said that you left and walked over the road, or crossed the road to go and help or to support the people there.  You were angry at him.  He did not want you to vote, is that not correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, I did not say that I did not want the President, I never said that.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage were you angry with the President because of the situation relating to the voting?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was angry and hurt because of what was happening to the black nation that being trodden and destroyed by your people and this happened in front of my eyes.  The whole Mafikeng.

ADV MOTATA: I wonder if I may interpose here.  Mr Menyatsoe, you should understand the context of the question asked by Mr Terreblanche, that therein, it is not only what you have said but also what you said in the papers before us and I would invite you to look at page 14S ?, where you are trying to explain the political objective.  Just there you say, "Government of the ex-Bophuthatswana, who through their leader, the ex-President, Lucas Mangope, refused to participate in the elections."  You see that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes I see that.

ADV MOTATA: What I am saying, I am not going to suggest an answer to you but when Mr Terreblanche is asking questions he has also read your papers, these questions also impact on the papers before us.  Thank you.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I understand Sir.