Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: These were residents.  I therefore cannot mention names.

MR LAX: You're not being asked to mention names.  Listen carefully to the questions.  Just listen very carefully.  He's saying the group got bigger by quite a lot, considerably.  You can either say yes, or no.  No-one's asking you tell all their names.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, the group grew.  Yes, the group grew as people were coming to join it.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Dastile, and you then testified that you went to firstly Mr Magwaza's house and he was not at home, and you then decided to go to Mr Sithole's house.  Was this this whole group that you're referring to?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, it was not a group, only leaders, the leaders.  There were seven of us.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, just to get to another point now.  At that stage was the meeting still arranged for that afternoon?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We had not yet met to discuss the meeting, but everybody knew there had to be a meeting in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you just get onto the next phase Mr Claassen, just while we're still dealing with this shebeen episode.  Was there a problem at that shebeen, Moloesi's shebeen on the Friday, but a week before.  On Friday the 4th of February?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, there was no problem before the 4th.

CHAIRPERSON: This problem took place, according to what you say, on the Saturday morning, the 12th.  Mr Mpongosi when he gave evidence said that there was no problem on the 12th at that shebeen, but there was in fact a dispute at the shebeen on Friday a week before, the 4th, on Friday the 4th of February.  What do you say to that?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is not correct.  He is wrong.  That is not the truth.  We experienced this problem on the 12th, it was on a Saturday.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  May we just, on this point again, Mr Dastile, was it never before, or hasn't it happened before, that Mr Moloesi refused to serve a certain person, and because of that there had been a problem?  I realised that the question is vague, I just, with specific reference to Mr Mbatha.  That he had been refused previously by Mr Moloesi and the problem arose because of this.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Before Mpongosi arrived on the 12th?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen is trying to ask you this.  He's saying before the 12th of February, had there been problems with other people at that shebeen?  And he's referring to a person called Mbatha.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Not before the 12th.  I've never heard of any problem before the 12th.

MR LAX: No problem whatsoever at that shebeen?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, there was no problem.  The IFP and the ANC were mixing and drinking together at the shebeen.  There was  no such a problem.

MR LAX: So no problem had been brought to your attention as an ANC committee member?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No we did not receive any such a problem.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Lax, if I may just, rephrase the, out of the judgment, page 103, Mr Dastile, I would just like to put this to you, that Mr Moloesi testified during the trial that on that previous day, or if I might just quote this, he testified that
"...because of previous trouble with accused number five he refused to sell beer to him.  As a result of this the misconception was formed that he was discriminating against IFP members.  He testified that accused two, who was a member of the parents committee, formed to keep ...(indistinct) in the camp called at the shebeen later in the day and levelled such accusations."

CHAIRPERSON: What page is that Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair that's on page 103 of the bundle, it's right the top paragraph there.

MR LAX: And just so you know who accused number two is, that's Mpongosi.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So do you understand what's being put to you?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, I understand quite well.

MR LAX: That's what Moloesi said at the time.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: If that is the case, that means he did not report it before, because I was hearing that for the first time.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson, pardon me, I'll leave it at that.  Mr Dastile, then, quickly again on, you said that you went to Mr Sithole's house, and you met Sithole, Zwane, Mpongosi plus two boys, that came towards you.  And your brother then spoke to him and said that this problem had to be resolved, there was going to be, he made mention of the general state of violence that occurred in the country at that stage, and he said that, "...we should stop it because if this happens it will never stop."  Is that correct?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Where were this, you made mention of this group of people from the tavern.  Where were they at that stage?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: At this very same moment as we were talking to Sithole these people went down towards the ANC office.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, there's just on further thing.  You said that you discussed this problem with Mr Sithole and urged him to go and relay, discuss it with the IFP and your brother said that he would discuss it with the ANC.  What, what was decided there and then, in that little mini meeting that you had, if I might call it that?  What was resolved and what was decided will happen from then on?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: The decision that came up was that we said, Sithole said actually to Dastile, that Dastile should go and discuss this with the ANC and he, Sithole, would go and discuss this with the IFP people, to try and stop or resolve this problem.  And after consulting with the respective groups we would come and meet at the grounds, and discuss this.  We would all meet at the grounds.

MR CLAASSEN: That was decided then?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, on that very same spot.

MR CLAASSEN: Right Mr Dastile you said you went back to the ANC offices.  What did you find when you got there?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We went there to the ANC people and we found people waiting outside the office.  And we reported to them that we met with Sithole and discussed and agreed that he should go and discuss this with the IFP people, and this will never happen again.  And they should relax because we were going to meet Sithole again on leaving the office, to make sure that this is resolved.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile you made mention of the fact that the people should relax.  What was the mood at that stage?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, people were still not sure.  They were not really relaxed, because it was for the first time that we left Sithole after we had met the people were angered by this incident.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, were they very upset and angry?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I did mention earlier on, people were very noisy at the time.

MR CLAASSEN: I'll leave it at that.  Mr Dastile you went further, just to get back, when the people gathered at the shebeen did you notice of any of them were armed at that stage?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, there were armed people.

MR CLAASSEN: With what sort of weaponry were they armed?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Some were armed with sticks, knopkierries, spears and firearms.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, just so you're not confused, I'm talking about the people that gathered, and I presume they are predominantly ANC supporters, is that the people you're now referring to, that came to the shebeen when they heard about the incident?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: As I have indicated, people who received these news came on their own armed with whatever was available at their disposal.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  And Mr Dastile, you now talk about a stage where you were at the ANC offices.  Were mostly the same crowd there still armed with the same weaponry?