Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

UNKNOWN: I can give you the assurance that it didn't matter whether it was Black or White, if you walk into the gallows, then everything happened in a professional way.
 You no longer thought in terms of Black and White.  Many, many times I had to clean up the mess after a Black person had been executed.  It was my job, it was what was expected of me.  I cleaned up the place afterwards, there was no apartheid there.
 That was your job and you did it professionally.  If I could call it professional.  No jokes were made.  We didn't even smoke there.  How could I put this, it was in a way sacral, there was no time for jokes.  We had respect for death and there was no faveolity.  There was no discrimination, not as far as I was aware.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Steinberg, good that you make reference to the Upington 14 and that Duma too has been here, that I don't know whether in your training was there any element of kindness or good that you could do to the people on the death row, that is people who is just due to be hanged?
 Perhaps to make it clear and to be short, this is even referred to by Duma in his statement that one of the greatest service that the warders did them was to create divisions amongst the people on the death row.  I remember this existed with the Sharpville 6 and this existed with the Upington 14, where we even have to seek the services of AMSA, that is the mediation group, so one is saying when you get to relate as you put it, with that other Zulu speaking gentleman so deeply as to even know things that you can divide, people on the death row who came in a group, how was this accounted for?  I don't know whether you ever had an example of that, that is creating divisions amongst people who are due to hang, knowing what emotional stress this would add?

UNKNOWN: We did our job and I really don't want people to refer to us warders as barbarians, we did our work to the best of our abilities.  And you will always in each group, you will find somebody who has a tougher, hard nosed attitude than the rest and there were times when you spoke to these people and they spoke to you.  There were times when perhaps you told them to read a certain verse of the Bible.
 There were times when you actually prayed with them in the visiting room or in the church, that is only human and I think it is inhuman to refuse an invitation by anybody, whether he is on death row or a beggar in the street, an invitation to actually pray together.  I think it would be inhuman to refuse.
 We talked to them about the Bible.  I hope that answers the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: Thank you.  Just one question relating to the families.  Earlier on Paula shared with us and I think you alluded to that in your presentation, that the families were not allowed to see the body and also you said that even the burial was conducted by the State.
 My question is what was the reason for refusing the family to see the body, was it an extension of the punishment or was there any, perhaps a good reason for that and the follow up is, if the families were to request that they bodies should be exhumed so that they can have proper family burials, in your opinion, do you think there would be a problem with that?  Just those two questions.

UNKNOWN: As far as the exhumation of the bodies are concerned, I couldn't answer you on that, it was policy and perhaps that was an application which they should have directed at the Department, my Department.
 And the other question, we did allow families to place wreaths on the coffins, we weren't that inhuman.  What I would like to say is that I don't think it would have been a very pleasant sight.  I know what a person who had been hanged, looks like.  I know what the facial expression looks like, it is not a pretty sight.
 If I had been a parent and my child had been executed in that way, I wouldn't have liked to have seen the face.  I think that was the biggest reason.  It would have been extremely traumatic and could perhaps have been psychologically very damaging for such a parent to see his child in such a state.
 And I think that was the reason to spare the family that anguish and I think it was a good thing.  I think it was a good thing not to open the coffins.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steinberg, we thank you very much for having come forward and opening up yourself in the manner that you did.
 And in a way, this confirms what Duma said about you and the positive remarks he made that if it had been somebody else, he would have objected and would have exposed the rope so we thank you and we know how you and your colleagues feel about the work that you have been doing.
 And I would just like to also thank your counsel for the manner in which they conducted this interview, so that such rich information should surface which people would never have known about.
 And in conclusion I just want to read one paragraph, one small paragraph of Paula McBride's submission when she talks about the warders and the jobs that you had to do.  "Many of the warders in Pretoria Maximum Security Prison were young and inexperienced and there can be no doubt that their time spent on death row has had a permanent effect on their lives.  Despite the relationship of authority and control, other relationships did develop as is inevitable when humans live in close proximity to one another.  In many cases, these relationships ended with the warders escorting the prisoners to their deaths."
 And exactly what you said, is what Paula has said and in the end, she says "the prison service was at the end of the chain".  In other words, you guys were at the end of the chain, before you came the law makers, the State President and most importantly the Judges who passed the sentence of the death.
 Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: It is a pleasure.

CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, as you are well aware, we have exceeded the time limit for this  interview and we felt we should not cut it short, because we felt it was very important that you should hear and go through this process, so as a result of that, we are very much behind time and we are only going to have 15 minutes for tea and we would be very grateful if you would move as quickly and as energetically as possible, so that we can come back in time to start for the next round.