Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-18

MS M MOLETE: I said Mr Strydom gave us this as our pocket money.  He stated that he does not deny that white people and the police were involved according to his people, but today his people have been disowned, they've been left alone.  I did not say that he paid us not to disclose that as a fact.

MR LOWIES: Okay, now let's leave the pay out.  He also did not want you to keep quiet regarding white people who were there, he wanted the opposite, not so?  This is a question.

MS M MOLETE: May you please repeat that question, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Mr Strydom did not want you to keep quiet about white people, not so?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Right.  And it may be that you were paid witness fees, but not by Strydom.

MS M MOLETE: I know witness fee to be R10.  We would go to the office and sign for them.  We did not sign for this one.

MR LOWIES: For the R150 that he paid seven people each?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, that is correct.  ...(no English interpretation)

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Interpreter, we're not getting you again, perhaps you need to press ...

INTERPRETER: He sent the two of us previously to go and buy a barrel of food and some rolls, bread rolls.

MR LOWIES: No, but that does not cost R150 to each, which is denied.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not too sure what purpose will be served if you begin to argue with the witness.  I think you should just put facts to her.  If she denies those facts, let's move onto the other questions.

MR LOWIES: Is it your version that each and every one of those people received R150 from Mr Strydom, each and every one of them?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, Sir.

MR LOWIES: But you do not know why he gave the R150 to each and every one?

MS M MOLETE: I said he has just stated to us this fact.  After we have had our lunch we were given those R150 each.  We took that as our pocket money.

MR LOWIES: And I want to suggest to you the following;  you are trying to incriminate the applicants by stating that there were white people, it's not so. - white people on the night of the attack on Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I didn't hear her mentioning any one of the applicants.  She has not mentioned any name.  As far as I recall her evidence she could not identify any of the attackers, both white and black.

MR LOWIES: It's a matter of argument, but I'll rephrase it then.
	Your version that there were white people on the night of the attack is something that you have decided out of your own accord, it's not true.

MS M MOLETE: That is not so.

MR LOWIES: Alternatively I put it to you that somebody told you that you must come and say that there were white people involved.

MS M MOLETE: Nobody said that to me. I saw this with my own eyes.

MR LOWIES: And I want to put it to you that you are twisting your evidence in order to reflect badly on the applicants' case.  An example is the fact that you created the impression that Mr Strydom did not want you to give evidence regarding white ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, that's a matter for argument.

MR LOWIES: Well I - she can answer to that, but if you say I can't answer it I'll leave it.
	And I want to put it to you Madam, that your evidence relating to what happened on this specific day where Mr Strydom spoke to you is not correct, the correct version has been put to you.

MS M MOLETE: I do not know Sir, that is how you put it.

MR LOWIES: Did you on the day when you were called into court, see an attorney by the name of Caroline Nichols?

MS M MOLETE: I said I have never been into court to give testimony.

MR LOWIES: On the day when you spoke to Mr Strydom, on your version, did you see an attorney by the name of Caroline Nichols?

MS M MOLETE: I said we were in a room and Mr Strydom entered whilst we were in there, not in court, Sir.

MR LOWIES: My question is simple, did you on that day at all, it doesn't matter where, see Attorney Caroline Nichols?

MS M MOLETE: I have not seen her.

MR LOWIES: Did you know her at that stage?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know her.

MR LOWIES: Did you meet her afterwards?

MS M MOLETE: I have not met the lady attorney.

MR LOWIES: Ms Cambanis next to you?

MS M MOLETE: I knew her late last year.

MR LOWIES: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, is there anything arising from this questioning?

MR BERGER: Nothing Chair, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Could I have the record please, could I have the record that you've been reading from?  Is it marked, do you have notes on it?

MR LOWIES: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: You say this is page ...

MR LOWIES: It starts at 3207.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned that when you went to Pretoria there were seven of you, is that right? - that you were called by Mr Strydom.

MS M MOLETE: I said I remembered seven.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Florence Molete amongst those?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Jeannette Mnisi?

MS M MOLETE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Rebecca Motahung?

MS M MOLETE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Diamond Latha?

MS M MOLETE: I said I do not remember who they were.  I never mentioned that name.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no-one is suggesting  you mentioned that name, I'm simply asking you, do you know Diamond Latha?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, I know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he amongst that group?

MS M MOLETE: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Johannes Tsoatetsi?

MS M MOLETE: I remember Johanna Tsoatetsi, not Johannes.

CHAIRPERSON: Johanna Tsoatetsi.

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, Johanna Tsoatetsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Joshua Mahlango?

MS M MOLETE: I just know the surname, Mahlango.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he in the group?

MS M MOLETE: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Simon Moloi?

MS M MOLETE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Very well, Ms Molete, you may stand down.  Just before you stand down, I assume like all the other victims, she completed the necessary form for the ...

MR BERGER: She has, Chairperson.  We had a whole bundle of forms here for you yesterday and unfortunately overnight they got left in the wrong boot, so ...  We'll bring them for you tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  As long as I have the assurance that each one of those who come and testify ...

MR BERGER: Has filled out a from, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  Yes you may stand down, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BERGER: Chairperson, my learned friend, Ms Cambanis will lead the next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chair.  The next witness is Mrs Buwa, Elsie Buwa.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

ELSIE BUWA: I am Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV SIGODI: Do you have a reason not to take the oath?

ELSIE BUWA: I do not hear you properly.
COMMITTEE DISCUSS CHANNELS

ELSIE BUWA: I am Xhosa.

ADV SIGODI: I said do you have a reason not to want to take the oath?

ELSIE BUWA: Please repeat.

ADV SIGODI: Please give us your full names.

ELSIE BUWA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
PROBLEMS WITH INTERPRETATION

CHAIRPERSON: I'm trying to establish, Ms Cambanis, whether we do have an interpreter who can interpret from Xhosa into English and visa versa.
	Mr Interpreter, do you understand Xhosa?

INTERPRETER: Generally yes, Chairperson, we do understand Xhosa but we were just concerned that at a certain point we might not ...

CHAIRPERSON: Would you just repeat that, I didn't get that.

INTERPRETER: I said generally we do understand Xhosa, but we were just concerned that there may be a certain aspects of the evidence which may prove difficult.  So that if we do get stuck it may be a problem, but we may proceed.