Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

MR VALLY: ... I believe that the Security Branch at the time we are talking about, had infinite powers to detain and interrogate supported by all courts, which they were not shy to use, to tell us now that you people were intimidated by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela does not ring true in view of the record of detentions, that she personally has experienced.  How would you react to that?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I had nothing to do with the period during which she was detained and how she was treated, I will not know.  But I am going to tell you that when I was in Soweto it was my experience that I had with her.

MR VALLY: I want to run through a number of matters, I will be quick.

CHAIRPERSON: I must warn you Mr Hanif, that we are using a great deal of time, with a very heavy load of witnesses to complete, you must start to finish please.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You have already told us that you were an Investigating Officer in the death of Mr Makaola.  You already told us that you were the Investigating Officer in the case of the mutilation of the Makanda brothers.
 Are you aware of the murder of Susan Maripa?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Susan?

MR VALLY: Susan Maripa?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: The name has come up.  I am not aware of it and nor did I have anything to do with that.  So I can give you no information regarding the death of this person.

MR VALLY: Were you at all involved in the investigation into the disappearance of Mr Sibuniso Tshabalala and Mr Lolo Sono?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: No, I was not tasked with any investigation or anything to do with them.

MR VALLY: ... the Security Branch was (indistinct) involved in taking statements in this matter?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, it is possible that that could have been so.

MR VALLY: ... the Security Branch by virtue of the Security Branch, you yourself would be aware of this?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: As I said, I was aware of it, but I did not have anything physically to do with it.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the accusations or with the Security Branch would have been aware of the accusations, the linkage of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to the disappearance of Mr Tshabalala and Mr Sono?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: It is possible that I could have heard of it, yes.

MR VALLY: ... whether a statement was taken from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in connection with this incident?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: No, I am not aware of that, I know nothing of that.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the attempted murder of Mr Lerothodi Ikaneng?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Could you please repeat the question?

MR VALLY: I am sorry, are you aware of the attempted murder of Mr Lerothodi Ikaneng?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I am also aware of that, I have knowledge of that.

MR VALLY: Were you aware of a linkage between this attempted murder and the Mandela United Football Club?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I cannot say whether there is a link, I cannot tell you specifically, I do not know.

MR VALLY: Were you involved in this investigation at all?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I can recall the name specifically.  I cannot say specifically, it is possible that I was involved, I cannot recall specifically.

MR VALLY: Did you ever take a statement from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in connection with this matter?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Not that I can remember.

MR VALLY: Were you involved at all in the murder of Dr Asvat?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I have knowledge of the murder of Dr Asvat, but once again I was not tasked with the investigation of that matter.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the murder of Finkie Msomi?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I am aware of that.

MR VALLY: Was the Security Branch involved in the investigation at all?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: It is possible.  I think that they were, if I remember correctly I think that this is where a house was burnt down.  I cannot remember the detail, but the name is known to me and I believe that if the Security Branch were to investigate it themselves, there was co-operation between the Security Branch and the other department that was investigating it, but I cannot recall this specifically.
 If I can have the opportunity I can go back to the Security Branch Soweto and peruse the dockets that I investigated.  I cannot recall these cases.

MR VALLY: I want to just mention two more cases.  We are talking about the death of Cookie Zwane as well as the kidnapping of Mr Kgase, Mr Mono and Mr Mekgwe, was the Security Branch involved in those matters?
 Cookie Zwane's abduction and the assault on Mr Kgase, Mr Mono and Mr Mekgwe, was the Security Branch involved in the investigation of those matters, any of them?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Not that I have any knowledge of, I do not know.  It could be, it could not be, I have no personal knowledge.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of allegations of a reign of terror in Soweto being conducted by the Mandela United Football Club?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: No, I am not aware of anything like that, I have no knowledge of that.

MR VALLY: The Security Branch did not know that?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: No, that is not what I am saying, I said I do not know about it, I have no knowledge of that.

MR VALLY: Did the Security Branch know about that?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I think it is an unfair question.  If I say that I did not know it is possible that they could have known about it, but I do not know.

MR VALLY: I find that very strange, because it was very well known in the community, we have had a number of prominent people here talking about what had happened, we are aware that her house was burnt down by the Daliwonga students?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I have knowledge that the house was burnt down, yes, but as far as I can recall if  I remember correctly, it is school children who attacked her house.
 I am not, I do not know the details but I think school children attacked her house.  I do have knowledge of that, but once again I say that if I have knowledge of something, it does not mean that I personally investigated this or dealt with it further, it is merely a question that I had knowledge of it.

MR VALLY: With your wire chappie, with your informers, with your investigations which linked certain youths living in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house to certain incidents, you are still not aware of activities, criminal activities centred around the Mandela United Football Club, is that what you are telling us?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I am not aware of the fact that the United Football Club were guilty of any criminal activities, I have no knowledge of that.

MR VALLY: There is just one issue I want to take up with you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the final issue Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: The very final issue Mr Chairperson.  There are a number of others which I am not going to pursue.
 You have advised us there was no STRATCOM branch in Soweto.  We have evidence and I am referring to page 1354 of the record, your Attorney has the record, where Mr Erasmus an ex-colleague of yours based in John Vorster, you know Mr Erasmus?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I can just say to the Commission that I only know his name, I never met him personally.  If he had to appear in front of me now, I would not even know that it is him, it is only his name that is known to me.  Further I do not even know what he looks like.  I have never met him in my life.

MR VALLY: Fine, I will just tell you what he says and then I will quote you something else and then I would like your comment on that.
 At page 1354 Mr Erasmus says, your Attorney should have this record, STRATCOM operations were carried out with all the Security Branches in South Africa at the time.  In the Soweto Security Branch personnel dealt with STRATCOM operations who worked in tandem with the Intelligence Unit.
 That is what Mr Erasmus says.  I will tell you what Mr McPherson says.  Do you know, I think it is Superintendent at this stage, do you know Superintendent McPherson?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I know Superintendent Vic McPherson and I have also met him.  I know who he is.