Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we will do now is take one more witness before we break for lunch. I would like to calL Lizah Dhlamini.
 Could I call for quiet, please.  Lizah Dhlamini, can you hear through the head-phones? Is that all right?  Will you be speaking in English or Zulu?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Zulu, okay.  Before I ask Tom Manthata to lead your evidence, could I ask you please to stand and take the oath.

LIZAH DHLAMINI: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please be seated. Tom Mathata will now lead you.  When you want to talk just press the red button on the microphone in front of you.  Thank you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Liza, you have been welcomed already.  Could you just go on with the case that we are about here.

LIZAH DHLAMINI: At the beginning, boers used to come at my place.  When they came they took Mdusi.  When I asked where are you taking Mdusi, what has he done, they said no, the teacher at school wants to see him.  I said what, at this time the teacher wants to see him Mdusi, why?  Because Mdusi's teacher is not a white person.  They said it is just a minor thing that they want him for. Time went.  They used to come and get him often. They took him all the time.  Each
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time he gets back I ask him where are they taking you to. He said no, he just come from Protea.  I will say what is happening in Protea with those boers, which is white.  He said no, they are just asking me things about school.  
 One day when I arrived from work at home in the afternoon, I found out they had shot the house.  They were shooting and all the windows were shot.  I asked who shot, they said no, we don't know.  In that very afternoon the boers came.  I said here, there has been some shooting.  The boers said we don't know what is happening. I left and I asked the school children.  When I was asking the child outside who was here actually, the children said we saw boers surrounding this place, going around the place.  
 I left to report the case at Maroko police station. When I reported this case at Moroko police station they told me that any case about the school children, they don't admit it, they don't take it, they will just investigate and see and try to find out who were the people who shot.  
 The following week this very boers came back again.  I said there has been some shooting here and I reported the case. But there is no, there is no improvement, nothing has been done.  There is no action, they don't call me, they don't ask me anything and I told them everything, that the children did see, they actually said they saw the boers outside.  
 Again, at night, they started shooting.  When I asked the neighbour, they neighbour said she saw a Cressida, the neighbour saw a Cressida, a white Cressida.  The neighbour said this Cressida usually it transports Azapo members. I left again to Moroko to report this matter.
 They asked me what is the car registration of that 
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white Cressida.  I said no, I could follow that Cressida to take note of the car registration, because it is at night, they are shooting. No one can stand that.  Because they were shooting.  
 One day I arrived from work and I met people along the street.  They said come, go straight home. When I got home they told me that Mudusa has been shot.  The family were there.  Around eight the boers arrived.  When the boers came they told me.  They actually asked me if I had heard that Mudusa had been shot. I said no, it is not, I want to know where he was shot.  They said to me he has been shot, what we are telling you now, the next day come to Protea.  They gave me the address which court to go to, what number. 
 Well, in the morning we woke up before we went there.  One of the boers came and told me don't go to Moroko, go to Protea and enter this place and give your statement. When I got to Protea, they told me those boers, they told me that he had been shot at a certain place. I said to them now what is the point of giving a statement, because you know better.  I got back home.  
 As we were trying to make preparations for the funeral, boers came quite often to ask what time will the funeral take place and so on.  I was surprised.  After the funeral again, they came again and said I should go to Protea.  I was given a note at Protea, telling me that I will be called again afterwards. I never went back again.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At which school was Madusu attending?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: At the secondary, at Bongo Secondary.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At that time was Madusu, did he have a fair number of friends around him?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, he had quite a number of friends.
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THOMAS MANTHATA: Did those friends indicate any political grouping they could have belonged to?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Well, it is one thing that I never took notice of and I did not know that much.

THOMAS MANTHATA: By the way, before you go on.  Where were the parents at this time?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: I was working, even my sisters were working.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And their father and mother?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: I am the mother.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Sorry,  I thought you were the sister. I do apologise.  As they were taking Mudusu in and out of Protea police station, did you think that Mudusu was reporting correctly whenever he came back?  That is when you asked him.

LIZAH DHLAMINI: I used to ask him Mudusu why are they taking you.  He would just say these policemen are just nagging me, I don't know where they are taking me to.

THOMAS MANTHATA: They were making him to do - weren't they asking him to do something or you know, just what is he doing, asking him for?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: He used to tell him they will torture him at the police station, interrogating him, things that he did not know of.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Up to the time when Mudusu died, it seemed it was the more police who were visiting you rather than the friends of Mudusu. Am I correct?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, the police used to come and the friends as well, they used to come.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So that he was shot at and was killed by the police, where did you get this information? Or you never knew who shot him?
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LIZAH DHLAMINI: I heard afterwards that it was an Azapo gangster that shot him, that killed him.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But strangely enough, it seems the police were very co-operative, because you had not even gone to report Mudusu's death, but they came home to tell you that he was shot?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, they came. Well, I did go to report the matter, because they told me to go to Protea at Modering.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And when you had to bury Mudusu, which group of youths, whether they were Azapo or UDF, attended the funeral?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: It was UDF.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And did the UDF students or youths ever give threats or did they ever mention who could have killed Mudusu?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: They never made mention of any names, they simply said Azapo.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And you never knew who the leader of the Azapo group was in that area or in that school?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: They said the Azapo leader is the gun-man, some gun-man, a group of Tami.

THOMAS MANTHATA: A group of Tami or Tamis group?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Tamis group.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did you as a family ever meet Tami and find out why he could have done such a dastardly thing?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: No, we never.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And yet you still continue to live side by side with Tami's group, Mrs Dlamini.

LIZAH DHLAMINI: We never followed this up, because they were busy killing people.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did the parents at any stage go to the school
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where Mudusu was attending, to find out what these problems between the students were all about?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: No one went there, we were scared, we were afraid.