Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: Yes, I do know the nameof my boss.

KHOZA MGOJO: Is it true that when your son was shot by the police - I meanyour daughter was shot by the police she became crippled and lost an eye?

WITNESS: Yes. She has got only one eye.

KHOZA MGOJO: (Inaudible) ... explain to us how she was crippled?

WITNESS: AsI have already said she had been shot. She underwent an operation. I don't knowwhether the bullet came through the eye or through the stomach, because apparentlyshe had been shot in the stomach.

KHOZA MGOJO: (Inaudible) ... when this happened where?

WITNESS: She was 20 yearsold.

KHOZA MGOJO: What was she doing?

WITNESS: She was attending school.

KHOZA MGOJO: Do you know what class?

WITNESS: She was doing standard nine.

KHOZA MGOJO: Was the matter reported to the police, or to any police station?--- When she came back from the hospital we were visited by a reverend as wellas another lady. This lady works for an attorney. I don't know who the thirdperson was. They said I should go to see a lawyer. I went where they had toldme to go. The attorney told me that I should pay him an out front fee of R5000,00.

KHOZA MGOJO: (Inaudible)

WITNESS: It was du Plessis.

KHOZA MGOJO: So he wanted a sum of R5 000,00 before he could attend to thiscase?

WITNESS: Yes. I said to him if he could handle my case I would pay him as soonas the matter was finalised.

KHOZA MGOJO: (Inaudible)

WITNESS: No, he never took the case.

KHOZA MGOJO: This name of Morodi, do you know him?

WITNESS: It's Reverend Mavundla.

KHOZA MGOJO: Do you know the name of the ... (inaudible) ... church wherehe is a minister?

WITNESS: It's Wessel Methodist Church. Yes, that's Mavundla.

KHOZA MGOJO: And do you know where he stays if he were to be contacted?--- He is not in Bethlehem at the present moment. He moved.

KHOZA MGOJO: How many children do you have, Mama?

WITNESS: I have six children,three girls and three boys.

KHOZA MGOJO: Do they go to school?

WITNESS: One is working. The two have goneto their father's place. The other one is not working. One is attending school.The one who was shot only finished school last year.

KHOZA MGOJO: (Inaudible) ... responsible for their education, all of them?--- Yes, I am the one who is responsible.

KHOZA MGOJO: Just one more question. Is there any person who saw the policewhen they were shooting your daughter?

WITNESS: The one she was walking with died.I can't remember quite well the other one. The other one is Disebo, Disebo Besa.

KHOZA MGOJO: (Inaudible)

WITNESS: No, she was not injured.

KHOZA MGOJO: Where is she now?

WITNESS: She is not around.

KHOZA MGOJO: You don't know where she might have gone to?

WITNESS: She is inBethlehem.

KHOZA MGOJO: Well, thank you. Maybe she might be the one who could be investigatedto give us the true story of what really happened if she was there. I thinkthe Truth Commission will try to see if they cannot get hold of her to get thefull story about this. So, Mama, if you were to ask the Commission to do somethingfor you what would you expect the Commission to do for you?

WITNESS: I would likethe Commission to assist me in claiming for my child's injuries.

KHOZA MGOJO: Do you mean ... (intervention)

WITNESS: I arranged that she shouldhave an artificial eye. (Inaudible) ... artificial eye. Thank you. I hand you overto the Chairperson now.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Mrs Matselane, thisplace Loso that you say you sent your daughter to. What is that place? Is ita town, is it ... (intervention)

WITNESS: It's a township. It's the name of the township,Loso.

MR LAX: Is that place near Bohotlong township where you live? Bohlokong- sorry - township where you live. Did you not hear the question?

WITNESS: Yes, Iunderstood the question.

MR LAX: Sorry, we can't hear anything.

INTERPRETER: She said yes. She said yes.

MR LAX: Oh, you've said yes, okay. Do you have any ideaabout what the circumstances in Loso were so that there were police shootingon the streets that day?

WITNESS: I don't know because I was at home. Whether thepolice were shooting at random, or whether there was some commotion going on,I don't know. It was quite far from my place.

MR LAX: You haven't been able to find out from anyone else?

WITNESS: Therewere children singing in the streets. They were chanting.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... amongst those children that were singing inthe streets?

WITNESS: I really don't know, because that's where she got injured.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... what she was doing there.

WITNESS: She told me thatshe was on her way back home. On her way back she got shot.

MR LAX: Now, was your daughter ever involved in political activities?Was she a member of a political party perhaps, or a students' organisation?

WITNESS: No.

MR LAX: And you've never heard anything further in terms of cases orinvestigations about the follow up to this incident, about what happened tothe other children and so on?

WITNESS: There was a case. There were certain Indianswho were always going to this case who were from Johannesburg. Each time wewould get in there and then they would just tell us that the case has been finalised.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... were they lawyers, or who were they?

WITNESS: Yes,they were attorneys.

MR LAX: You don't remember any of the names by any chance, do you?--- No, I don't remember any of the names.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... question. This person who was walking withyour daughter when she was shot, who has survived, Disebo Besa that you spokeof. Does her family live in the same township as you?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR LAX: Would it be possible for you to give us their details so thatwe can try and follow up?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you very much. No further questions, Chairperson.

MR LAX: What's your surname?

WITNESS: It's Matselane. Matselane.

MR LAX: Thank you. Mama Matselane, we would like to help as much aspossible. We would like to know the state of your daughter now, because youhave said she is crippled and that's causing a bit of a concern to us. Whatdoes she do now? Can she work, can she help at home, can she take care of herself?--- Yes, she is able.

MR LAX: Does she go to school?

WITNESS: She matriculated last year. Is there anything at the moment which is causing some difficultiesin her life? --- No.

MR LAX: Thank you very much, Mama.

MR LYSTER: Mrs Matselane, you have been very patient,waiting all day to give your evidence, and we thank you for that and for comingall the way in from Bohlokong in Bethlehem. As you know, probably better thana lot of us, the police in those days were - very often behaved in the recklessand violent way that you have described, where they could just shoot peoplein the street, and your daughter was a victim of the system that permitted thatsort of behaviour to take place.
As you know, and as you have probably heard me say, we cannotassist you immediately with compensation, but we will take your story and conveythat story to the State President, and we will recommend to him steps that heshould put into place to assist people like your daughter, and we feel surethat steps will be put in place to assist people like her.
So thank you again for coming in to be with us today, and wewish you every strength as you go home. Thank you very much.

MR LYSTER: Thank you for coming in, Mr Thayisi. Canyou please tell me whether you can hear me through the earphones, you can hearme well enough? Thank you very much. You've come to us today from Mokwena villagein Thaba Nchu, and you've come to tell us a story about assault and tortureby the police which took place in 1990, in August 1990. Before you give thatevidence I am gioing to ask you to stand to take the oath.

WILLIAM THAYISI: (Sworn, States)

MR LYSTER: Thank you. And now I am going to ask my colleague,Dr Magwaza, to assist you as you give your evidence.