Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Now, in your affidavit, you said in paragraph 3, in the one at page 22, you said in paragraph 3 II, that you've known Mr Ngo since 1989. Is that date correct?

MR MAMOME: I would say that date is wrong.

MR VISSER: When did you first get to know  anything about Mr Ngo?

MR MAMOME: The time when I found him lying on the stomach on the stretcher being stabbed.

MR VISSER: After he was stabbed?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: When was that?  Can you remember the year of that incident?

MR MAMOME: I would say it's somewhere in 1986, but I'm not sure of that date.

MR VISSER: Now what transpired later in regard to Mr Ngo that you know about, did you see him again?

MR MAMOME: Yes, I saw him in our offices after that incident.

MR VISSER: What was he doing there?

MR MAMOME: I am not able to answer that because he was working with Mr Erasmus.

MR VISSER: It is correct of course, that Mr Ngo became a student constable in March 1986 and that he left for Pretoria for the Police College, Training College in July 1986.  Are you prepared to accept that?

MR MAMOME: Sir, I was not monitoring him at the time when he was there. I not able to say it was like that or not but what I know that he went to Ladybrand, then from there he left to Hammanskraal, but I not able to tell which year.

MR VISSER: Did you work with Mr Ngo at all when he was a student constable?

MR MAMOME: No Sir, I was not able to work with him.

MR VISSER: Did you work with Mr Motsamai?

MR MAMOME: There were joint operations were both of us were engaged, that is when I met him but we were working in two's, that is one black, one white.
    To answer the question, yes, sometimes we were working together.

MR VISSER: Right, now we'll come to the incidents. Can I ask you this: in so far as either Motsamai or Mr Ngo alleged that you committed illegal or unlawful acts, what do you say about that?

MR MAMOME: I am a policeman, there was nothing illegal which I've committed.

MR VISSER: Alright, Mr Ngo says, page 23 of his application, that you participated in the kidnapping and the assault of Mr White Mohape. Is that true?

MR MAMOME: He is lying.

MR VISSER: And that you participated in the murder of a UDF member called either JJ or Pape, at page 25 of his application. Is that true?

MR MAMOME: He is lying, Sir.

MR VISSER: And that you thereafter, when you were called upon to go to Batu Police Station, that you failed to admit that you knew something about the whereabouts of this person called JJ.

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: He says furthermore at page 27 of his application that you took part in the assault and torturing of comrades in 1986 in Bloemfontein. Is there any truth in that?

MR MAMOME: There is no truth in that.

MR VISSER: Furthermore alleges that you similarly took, at page 31, that you similarly took part in the torturing of comrades in Botshabelo in 1986, what do you say tO that?

MR MAMOME: I didn't go to Botshabelo, Sir.

MR VISSER: He also told the Committee at page 41 that you participated in an attack on the clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela and BrandforT, is that true?

MR MAMOME: That is a lie.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Before proceeding to that Mr Visser I've got problems with the answer.  He alleges that you failed to admit about JJ. and he said that's correct. What exactly ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Perhaps I should make it clearer.
	Mr Ngo alleged that at on a certain day, a group of people including yourself and Motsamai, had to go to Batu Police Station to speak to a warrant officer Modise.  Do you remember that?

MR MAMOME: Yes I do.

MR VISSER: And that it was Warrant Officer Tsoametsi that told you to go there and when you arrived there you were asked about - this is page 26 Mr Chairman, you were asked whether you could give information about the body of the person that was found wearing a UDF T-shirt.

MR MAMOME: We found that UDF dressed in - we found that corpse dressed in UDF T-shirt.

MR VISSER: Now I'm talking about a visit to Batu Police Station.  Did you go to Batu Police Station together with Mr Motsamai and Warrant Officer Tsoametsi to speak to Warrant Officer Modise, M-o-d-i-s-e, and did you there tell him that you knew nothing about the identity of this person or what had happened to him? - that is the person, the corpse in the UDF T-shirt.

MR MAMOME: What is the question, Sir?

MR VISSER: The question is whether you told Mr Modise at Batu ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't the question first - you put a very long question there, isn't the question first: did you go with Warrant Officer Tsaometsi and Constable Mtyhala to Batu Police Station to see Warrant officer Modise?

MR MAMOME: I went there but I don't remember with whom did I go.

MR VISSER: Where you asked whether you could give information about the corpse that was found wearing a UDF T-shirt?

MR MAMOME: That is correct?

MR VISSER: And did you then tell Warrant Officer Modise that you couldn't give any information?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I think that is what the witness was talking about Commissioner de Jager.
    Mr Ngo also implicated you in the murder, robbery, murder and robbery of Mr Venter. Do you recall that?

MR MAMOME: That is correct. I read about it on the paper of Ngo's amnesty application.

MR VISSER: And he says that you were one of the persons who took him to Mr Venter's house for him to murder Mr Venter.

MR MAMOME: I do not know Mr Venter. I Haven't seen him, I haven't met Mr Venter.

MR VISSER: Did you take Mr Ngo to a house so that he could murder somebody.

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: Bear with me a moment Mr Chairman.
	In any event, Mr Ngo also said that you gave instructions for them to go back - well, to bury the body of Mr Venter, is that so?

MR MAMOME: It's not so.

MR VISSER: And afterwards to back to ransack or to take items out of the house of Mr Venter.

MR MAMOME: That is not correct.

MR VISSER: That you in fact, took his car, you and Mr Ngo, took his car and you went to Botshabelo?

MR MAMOME: I did not go there, I did not go with Mr Ngo, that is his story.

MR VISSER: Did you make any prior arrangements for Mr Venter's car to be stored amongst stolen vehicles? At the Police Station at Botshabelo with Mr Mbanjani?

MR MAMOME: That is not correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo alleged that you took jewelry, that was taken from Mr Venter's house for yourself And aou paid certain people money for their assistance in the robbery of Mr Venter.  Is that true?

MR MAMOME: It's not like that Sir.

MR VISSER: In short, you had nothing to do with the murder or robbery of Mr Venter?

MR MAMOME: I don't even know him.

MR VISSER: Right.  Mr Motsamai at page 146 of bundle B, says that you participated in the killing of a person by the name of George Musi in Melk Street, Bothchabela.  Is there any truth in that?

MR MAMOME: I don't know this man called George Musi.

MR VISSER: Did you take part in killing a person in Melk Street with Mr Motsamai?

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: He suggested in his paragraph two that you were also involved in burning the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela in Brandfort, it was during the 1980s he says, and you accompanied him.  Is that true?

MR MAMOME: It's not like that, Sir.

MR VISSER: And he goes on to say that a few weeks later, the two of you burnt her clinic as well, Paragraph two page one four six of bundle B.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: Melk Street, Milk Street.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: That's one 146, paragraph one.
    I'm sorry, I don't know whether you answered.  He says that a few weeks later, after burning the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela, you and him burnt the clinic that was next to her house.
    Is there any truth in that?

MR MAMOME: He's lying, this boy is lying.