Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you can ask - you can put the question, but we will, you know, I just let you know that no weight is really attached in this matter to what is contained in the summary of substantial facts that was accompanied the indictment in the court case, especially if we don't know if the evidence was in accordance with such summary.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The incident of this woman you have mentioned, did it happen before you could come across Bongane Ntombela or after?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Our incident about this girl, it was before we met Bongane Ntombela.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You remember in that case your defence was one of self-defence against Bongane Ntombela, do you remember that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was it the truth?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair in court we were talking about this case I was trying to cover myself in a sense that I did not want to be revealed because I knew that that was the case, so I had to defend myself there with the judge.  That was not the truth, it is today that I'm telling the truth.
CHAIRPERSON REQUESTS AUDIENCE TO CALM DOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Today here as you said, you are telling the truth, am I right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes this is the truth that I'm telling.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And your intention today was to tell everything that happened on that day that led to the killing of Ntombela, not so - the full disclosure?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But you will agree with me that the incident of the girl before you met Ntombela was not disclosed viva voce today?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair, about this girl I saw on my sight has not been problematic because I didn't do anything to that girl.  If my memory serves me well, even in court, she indicated that I didn't do anything.  And I asked her when I was trying to propose love to her what her name was, so I didn't see that to be problematic such that I can put it in here, include it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  And you were on the side of the IFP, fighting against anything that was ANC or UDF?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair, let us not interpret it that way, not all of us were fighting with everybody, or whether it's a female or a child.  Myself, what I used to do, I used to partake with those at my own - I would direct my attack on those that I was fighting with, not to the girls.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  Perhaps I took this from what other applicants said.  If I remember Hlongwane said:  ...(no English translation) - so you were not part of that?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes Chair as he has explained that we were different.  We youths, we did not actually work with them, we were at Woody Glen.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  Mr Chairman can I just be afforded one second, I just want to check something quickly.  I'm indebted to you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now finally Mr Ndlovu with reference to the Bongane Ntombela killing, you were at all relevant times operating as police when you killed him?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: We were not using the police in that incident, not as police.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Didn't you go there by police van?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: We walked on foot, we walked.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now finally, when you shot Ntombela, you said you shot him 4 times with a HMC, how far were you from him when you discharged the 4 shots?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: If I remember correctly, he might have been right in front from where I'm sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: And the witness indicates approximately 1 meter away, about the width of the table.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This HMC, if I'm correct, it's a small machine-gun am I right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And one bullet at that distance would suffice to kill a person?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Let me explain this, he did not die instantly, we heard that he died on his way to the hospital.  Therefore I do not agree that one bullet would have killed him.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose that depends on the accuracy of the shooting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman that will be all thanks..
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR WILLS: I've made a fundamental error in the leading of this witness and I request that I can re-open his application insofar as the attempted murder is concerned, just through concentrating on other issues.  I didn't raise that issue at all.  I don't think that anybody will suffer prejudice as a result of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the attempted murder of - which incident is that?

MR WILLS: Yes that's the attempted murders in respect of which he's been convicted, and it's just a little related incident to the murder of Bongane Ntombela.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you omitted it and it needs to be covered, then you can do so Mr Wills and I'll of course give the other parties an opportunity to put questions on that further point.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Mr Ndlovu after - you recall that you were also convicted in respect of attempted murders of certain policemen in the trial relating to the murder of Bongane?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Yes, they were from the Murder and Robbery Unit in Pietermaritzburg.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee just briefly what happened in that regard.

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: Chair, when I finished or stopped shooting Bongane Ntombela there was a gunshot that went off somewhere in the distance from a combi.  When I turned around I heard several directed to me.  I changed the magazine and then I returned fire.  I then realised that these people must have powerful guns.  I was then forced to retreat.   When I started running away I felt something on my leg, and I realised that there was blood on my leg, I had been shot.  I ran away and to WP Ndlovu's house.

MR WILLS: And it was shortly thereafter that the police arrived and arrested you, and it was then that you realised that these people that you'd been shooting at were in fact the police, is that right?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: When the police arrived at Mr Ndlovu's house they requested permission to enter the house because the gates were locked.  They then phoned the Murder and Robbery Unit, requested their colonel to phone WP Ndlovu because they wanted to search his house because a certain person had been shooting at them.  WP Ndlovu gave them permission to enter the house, and then they got into the house.
	They themselves did not know for a fact who had been shooting at them.  They laid their on the ground and then they went into the house searching for others.  They called us individually to enter the house.  They had made us take off our pants so that they could see the person who had been shot at the incident.  That's when they discovered it was me.  They then arrested me as well as Christopher Lethal who in fact was innocent because he had not been at the scene.  They wrongly thought that it was ME Ndlovu with whom I'd been at the scene.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry just on that, were any of the policemen who you shot at injured or killed there, do you know?

BERTWELL BHEKI NDLOVU: No-one was injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
	Mr Stewart do you have any cross-examination on this new evidence?

MR STEWART: None Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No questions Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewitt?

MR HEWITT: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HEWITT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This incident you have just described, are you asking for amnesty on it?