Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.  If I remember correctly, he wanted detail which they gave relating to certain persons.  What is in paragraph 9 and 10, I'll reread it and I'll read it slowly so that it can be interpreted
"Ndaba told me that there were already certain leaders in the RSA, namely amongst others Siphiwe Nyanda, Ronnie Casrills and Mac Maharaj.  He also gave me the addresses of a whole number of safe-houses belonging to the ANC in the Durban area.  These addresses were places where they met and had DPC meetings.  The information relating to the presence of these people in the country was news to me.  Nobody in the Security Branch knew it.  Ndaba also gave me the names of other persons involved in the operation.  Some of them had been trained militarily outside the country and had infiltrated the country and others were well-known activists within the country such as Proven Gordhan and Dipak Patel.  There involvement in the operation was also news to us."
And the context within which these names were mentioned, well I can't remember exactly.

MS POSWA: Was this not vital information to your, for your information, Mr Botha?

H J P BOTHA: Of course it was.

MS POSWA: At no stage ...(end of tape)

H J P BOTHA: Yes, he mentioned Mbuso Shabalala as the person with whom he was to have a meeting on that day.  Shabalala was mentioned as the person whom he had contact with within his cell structure and the reason why I didn't mention him in the statement was because he was part or that it was part of my amnesty application, that's the only reason.

MS POSWA: Sorry, could you explain that again?  It was part of your application?

H J P BOTHA: What I'm saying is that the reason why his name doesn't appear here is because Mbuso is the subject of my amnesty application.  His name was mentioned by Charles in debriefs as the person whom he had contact with in his cell and there were also other names mentioned which don't appear here.

MS POSWA: Thank you.  Now what did you do with this information that Mr Ndaba gave you?

H J P BOTHA: This information was disseminated.

MS POSWA: To whom in particular?

H J P BOTHA: It wasn't disseminated to a particular person, it was disseminated and evaluated based on other existing and available information coming from other informers.  We couldn't find any confirmation anywhere for that which Charles reported.  The fact that the information was not of a tactical nature but of a strategic nature led to the fact that the information was gathered but was not applied.  The reason for this was very simple.  In 1985 there was an operation with Ebrahim Ismail.  He was a high profile ANC person who had infiltrated the country, or who had been sent to the country from Swaziland.  He was supported by Heleen Pastoor and Klaas de Jonger.  That operation had a specific name, Toyota Isuzu and the objective of the operation...(intervention)

MS POSWA: Mr Botha, I think you've totally lost me now.

H J P BOTHA: The point is that I want to try and show why the information wasn't actually utilised when it was of a strategic nature..  Experience taught us that based on the knowledge which you received, you then make certain evaluations as to whether you would act immediately and whether you would give the operation enough rope so that it could grow.  Two things were happening, there was a strategic planning relating to the establishment of a structure within the country similar to something that had been known to us earlier.  the government was busy negotiating and everything which we could gather surrounding the ANC to place the government in a better position had to be used.  Consequently the information was gathered.

MS POSWA: So the information was gathered and disseminated.  Were your superiors informed about this.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the information is gathered, co-ordinated, compared with other information and so the process of gathering information would carry on.

MS POSWA: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR LAX: Can I just interpose for a moment if I may?  Are you saying that, if I understand you correctly, because this information wasn't confirmed in other respects, you personally as the person who had primary control over that information, decided not to do a lot more about it and wait and see what developed?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, correct.

MR LAX: Have I understood you correctly?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: So you didn't go and tell Gen Steyn immediately about it?

H J P BOTHA: No Gen Steyn was informed but within the context of the gathered intelligence.  I would for instance not issue a report within the province of Natal and ask questions and the reason for that was that at that stage our Security Branch had been infiltrated and there was a counter espionage operation underway so information was dealt with on a one to one basis.

MR LAX: Your mike please.  Your microphone's not on.

MS POSWA: So you did not feel that it was important to snap at the opportunity to arrest what now were the master minds behind this operation?

H J P BOTHA: Correct.

MS POSWA: Mr Botha, I put it to you the top brass of something you have been working on for so long, are in the country.  They have entered the country, clandestinely, if Mr Maharaj will bear with me, they have entered the country clandestinely, you are negotiating with government on this hand and on the other hand people are coming into the country, would this not be the opportune moment to expose the ANC?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.  If we had more comprehensive information regarding the situation, perhaps that would have been correct, but based on the experience of a previous and other similar operation, we learned that we should not act over hastily especially where intelligence was of a strategic nature, to rather gather more information before you act.  The Ebrahim Ismail operation was a very expensive lesson for us.

MS POSWA: If Mr Chair will bear with me.  Thank you.  You refer to some plot to assassinate Pres Mandela.  Can you please just give us a brief, can you just briefly state what that was about?

MR LAX: Where's this referred to?  Sorry, we haven't had any evidence of that yet.

MS POSWA: ...(indistinct - microphone not on)

MR LAX: Your microphone's off.

MS POSWA: Can you look at paragraph 11 please?  I'm sorry.  I misinterpreted this.  Mr Chair, can you give me a few minutes to confer?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JOHN WILLS: It won't take us a minute.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS POSWA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha, questions will now be put to you by counsel for the other family.  Mr Wills, please proceed.

JOHN WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Botha, I firstly want to concentrate on the time span within which this decision to ruthlessly murder these two people was taken.  As I understand it the arrest occurred on the 7th of July, that is the arrest of Mr Ndaba.  Now your evidence is to the extent that Mr Shabalala was also arrested on that day, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

JOHN WILLS: Well, I put it to you he was arrested on the 8th.  Can you comment on that, the Sunday?

H J P BOTHA: No, that's wrong, he was arrested on the Saturday.

JOHN WILLS: How can you be sure of that?

H J P BOTHA: Because Charles took us to the meeting.

JOHN WILLS: Well I put it to you that the families will say that he was with them at kwaMashu on a social gathering on the Sunday the 8th and they dispute that he was arrested on the 7th.

H J P BOTHA: I stand by the 7th.

JOHN WILLS: What made Ndaba talk to you between the 7th and the 8th?  Or should I rather say the 7th to the 10th when you started surveillance on other houses and I think on the 11th you arrested Gen Nyanda.

H J P BOTHA: The question which you asked was what caused Charles Ndaba to speak to me.  He was my informer.

JOHN WILLS: So he spoke freely to you, is that your version?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, he had no problems talking to me.