Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-25

MR WILLS: And Mr Chairperson, I'd like to - this is one of the documents we were handed at lunch yesterday.  I'd like to hand this in as Exhibit G.

CHAIRPERSON: Now which one is this?

MR WILLS: This is the one that's got Amanzimtoti CR number on the top and it's got - it's Exhibit R of that docket?

CHAIRPERSON: R?

MR WILLS: Yes.
	Now you made this statement and did you make this statement freely and voluntarily?

JABULANI DODA CELE: I was not forced.

MR WILLS: And you say basically in this statement after paragraph 17 and I've been through this with you prior to you coming in to testify, you tell us essentially what happened and is this in fact the truth?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes but there was a mistake that was committed somewhere in the statement.

MR WILLS: And what was that?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That referred to who ordered the people to alight from the bus, that is where the mistake was committed.

MR WILLS: And what is the correct version as far as your memory serves you at this point in time?

JABULANI DODA CELE: What happened is Nsandene, myself, Jabulani Ngubane and Jaman Selego, ...(indistinct) Shange.

MR WILLS: Yes carry on?

JABULANI DODA CELE: and Senso Mtolo, we stopped the bus, Ngobo, Sandene, Jabulani Ngubane and John Seleko were the people who surrounded the bus and the people who stopped the bus was Sani and Sandene was on the side of the bus together with Jabulani Ngubane and John Seleko and Sandene shouted that woman should alight and that was when he shot at the top of the bus and that is when the women screamed and they got off the bus and that was when those two men were killed.

MR WILLS: Yes, so basically what you're saying is that apart from the fact that you say Sandene ordered the females to leave, you're now saying that it was Ntandene that ordered the females to leave but apart from that this statement is basically correct?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now there has been a question regarding - which I think emanates from the second witnesses testimony as regards whether or not Master Shange had anything to do with the attackers regards giving the orders about the attack.  Can you comment on that?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes, I can.

MR WILLS: Well please tell us?

JABULANI DODA CELE: No one instructed us to attack the bus, that was something we decided amongst ourselves.

MR WILLS: Yes and that is in fact what you say three times in your statement which was made well before - statement that was made in 1996, is that right and for that purpose Mr Chairperson, I refer to the application form at various - there are three different indications.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Master Shange provide you with the weapons?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And sent you into the area, left it to you to choose who to attack?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now the last thing I want to deal with is you were arrested on the 18th May, is that correct?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And I think it's common cause that during that arrest you actually fired shots at the police and you fired shots at the police helicopter which actually caused the helicopter some damage, is that correct?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And as I understand your amnesty application form, in answer to question 9a(i) you refer to two dates, you refer to the 27th of the fourth, which is the date of the attack on the bus and the 18th of the fifth which is the date of your arrest.  Is it not so that you're also applying for amnesty as regards the events that occurred at the time of your arrest?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you just briefly tell the Committee what happened when you were arrested?

JABULANI DODA CELE: On that day I was with Jabulani and Umsaan Msomi and we were transporting these guns to Jabulani's home.  Before we got there we were travelling in an area called Frensa and the police approached, they fired at us and we returned fire.  We ran away and they chased after us even using a helicopter.  I then realised that the most troublesome problematic of all was the helicopter and I shot at it.

MR WILLS: Can you just slow down because there are Committee members taking notes, but carry on?

JABULANI DODA CELE: After I shot at the helicopter I was shot by the police who were on the ground.

MR WILLS: Yes and what happened to the helicopter do you know?

JABULANI DODA CELE: It was hit and it actually dropped onto the ground, I'm not sure where and after I'd been shot the police came to me and they assaulted me on the head and as well as on the rest of my body and we were locked up in the police van.

MR WILLS: Now do you know if anybody was injured as a result of this helicopter dropping from the sky?

JABULANI DODA CELE: No, as far as I'm concerned no one was injured because we hit the helicopter wing.

MR WILLS: Yes, now do you know if any of the policemen on the ground were injured as a result of you shooting at them?

JABULANI DODA CELE: As far as I know I don't think any of them were injured.

MR WILLS: Now my understanding is that you were in fact charged with the events of that day separately to the charge in the attack on the bus, is that correct, you were brought before court but that charges were eventually withdrawn against you for some reason which you're not sure of?

JABULANI DODA CELE: That is so.

MR WILLS: And you think that the charges related to damaging the helicopter, is that right?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR WILLS: You think, you're of the opinion yourself that, although you're not sure, that the charges related to something to do with damaging the helicopter?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: I would request that at some stage you let us have in writing what you think your client is applying for amnesty for, the precise offences and not leave it to our imagination.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I have sort of prepared something for argument but I have in fact tried to establish the offence relating to the helicopter but clearly they are offences of resisting arrest, attempted murder, relating to that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Unlawful possession of a firearm, unlawful possession of ammunition?

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of gun were you carrying on that day?

JABULANI DODA CELE: I had an AK47 and a hand grenade.

MR LAX: Mr Wills the helicopter would obviously be malicious injury to property?

MR WILLS: Thank you.

MR LAX: In the main charge sheet, in the indictment in the main matter, that is the murder matter involving the bus attack, you'll notice the formulation of the charges with specific reference to the Arms and Ammunition Act and the date there is the 18th May.  That will probably assist you when you prepare something for us at a later stage.  Look at page 91, it deals with both, in fact all three, rifle, ammunition, hand grenade.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Cele, you have testified that you knew of no violence in Nkwali except for the attacks that were carried out on your comrades, is that so?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes I did not know about the violence in Nkwali but Mr Mtolo was attacked there.

MS MTANGA: Is it possible that the people who attacked Mr Mtolo and the comrades you mentioned or you referred to could have been people coming from Mashawase where there was violence?

JABULANI DODA CELE: No, when Mtolo was attacked, a comrade was around and he said that he had seen somebody from Nkwalu and a certain Mr Gumede and that is how we realised that the people from Nkwalu were collaborating with those from Mashawase.

MS MTANGA: Is it also possible that because the attacks were confined on certain people that certain members of the community would not be aware of the attacks?