Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, if I counted correctly, we have now arrived at the last applicant before you, Mr Strydom.  His application form you will find in B113 and following, 113.

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: (sworn states)

ADV VISSER: Mr Strydom you are an applicant and you are asking for amnesty for any offence of delict which you may have committed during an incident which took place on the 10th of July 1986, on the Breslau/Alldays road?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Correct.

ADV VISSER: And you have your application form in front of you, is it correct?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Yes, except for paragraph 8(b), there is just a spelling mistake in one of the names, I don't think it matters much.

ADV VISSER: No, we will leave that.

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Further it is correct for the rest and I will confirm it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can we interrupt you Mr Visser.  What page is Mr Strydom's application?

ADV VISSER: I thought it was 113 Mr Chairman, yes, it is 113.  You referred to the submission of the Foundation for Equality before the Law to the Commission and also the submission of General Johan van der Merwe before this Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Committee and you are asking that those submissions be incorporated into your own in so far as they are relevant.

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: And lastly you also referred to the amnesty application of Mr Andries Johannes Gerhardus Erwee and you ask that that also be incorporated into your own application.

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Correct.

ADV VISSER: In your statement you referred to certain political motives and background which according to you inspired you to act in the way that you acted in general and in particular on that day, is that correct?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Yes.

ADV VISSER: And do you confirm that?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Now, Mr Strydom where were you stationed?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Where was I stationed?

ADV VISSER: Yes.

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: As Branch Commander of the Security Branch Beitbridge.

ADV VISSER: And that is Messina?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Right.

ADV VISSER: When did you become involved in this incident, in the run up to this incident?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: I only became involved on the 8th of July when I received a call from Head Quarters that I should assist in this matter.

ADV VISSER: And you then left for Alldays, is that correct?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: One of my men, Theuns Gerber, who is now deceased, left first and Venter and myself only left the next day.  I think I only arrived at Alldays on the 9th, round about two o'clock.

ADV VISSER: Yes, and then you realised that a place had been chosen for the setting up of a roadblock to stop the infiltrators?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Were you happy with this place?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: No, I wasn't happy with it and I pointed it out to the Defence Force Officer who was a Captain Born.  I suggested a different spot, because the one they had originally suggested was about 500 metres from a farm house and many farm workers lived quite close by.
	And there was also cattle grazing around there, so that would have been a bit risky if something should go wrong.  I was worried that members of the public could also become involved.

ADV VISSER: So upon your recommendation a different place was chosen?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Yes.

ADV VISSER: And that is the place where the incident then did in fact take place?  Were you then happy that it was remote enough so that bystanders would not become involved and become injured?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Yes, that is correct.

ADV VISSER: Where were you on the day of the incident?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: I was posted at one of our vehicles, about 50 metres if I remember correctly, in a north easterly direction from where the casspir was to move onto the road.

ADV VISSER: What was your duty?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: I had to man the radio should any messages come through, although the place was actually worthless for our radio.

ADV VISSER: Under whose command were you on that day?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Colonel Erwee.

ADV VISSER: And in general as far as the broader orders and instructions were concerned?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Colonel Van der Merwe.

ADV VISSER: Now, were any of his orders conveyed to you as to what was the purpose and objective of this operation and what is to be done with the six people?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: I can't remember if it was Colonel Erwee who phoned me or Brigadier Coetzee, but the instruction was I should afford help and that an attempt would be made to arrest these people.  We had information that they came from another country, and it was clear that we had to arrest them but not at the expense of our own lives and I was also told that should the arrest be successful also to assist with the interrogation.

ADV VISSER: Were members of the Defence Force also involved in the operation?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Correct.

ADV VISSER: Were members of the Defence Force stationed where you were on the 10th?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: No, I was alone.

ADV VISSER: Mr Strydom, do you feel that you have done anything unlawful or illegal on this particular day?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: No.

ADV VISSER: And here you are asking for amnesty, so how does that work?

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: I want to join up with what previous witnesses have said.  I share their views.  There were so many calls made from people who were involved in incidents in the past and the call was that they should come forward and tell the full and the true story.
	Initially I did not want to apply for amnesty because I felt I did not do anything wrong, but I was informed at some stage that a case of murder was investigated by the Attorney General's team.
	That caused a bit of doubt in my mind.  It is easy for me to say that I didn't do anything wrong.  Policemen decide within five minutes, whereas a Judge or a Magistrate takes days and weeks and months to decide whether you acted correctly or not.
	And that convinced me to apply and then somebody else can decide.

ADV VISSER: Thank you sir.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rossouw?

MR ROSSOUW: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

MR ROSSOUW: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: No questions, Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JOHANNES ANDRIES NEL STRYDOM: Thank you.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps I don't know whether my learned friend, Mr Black wants to report back to you regarding the attempts by three of our witnesses to identify the person who was wounded.  We asked Mr Erwee and Mr Fuchs as well as Mr Van Dyk who were closest to this person whether they could identify him, they were unable to do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Yes, I confirm that Mr Chairman.  Photographs of the faces of all six of the deceased were shown to the gentlemen concerned and they were unable to identify the particular person who was being interrogated and who had been wounded.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser, do you have witnesses to call or is that the case for each of the applicants?

ADV VISSER: That is the case so far Mr Chairman.  The continuation of this application will depend as I have stated before, on some agreement as to what you would require by way of general background of the unrest period.
	It is something which we suggest with respect, my Attorney can sort out more conveniently with Mr Black at a later stage, we are obviously not going to be able to complete that this week.