Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR LAX: Because how could Jimmy have seen those things during the night and then some hours later tell you about it?  It must have been the next day.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I say so, Chairperson, that it is possible that it may be that way, I don't dispute that fact.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) that's the case, did you go to CR Swart Square and then come back to Winkelspruit to pick Jimmy up, or did you sleep there the night and then leave afterwards?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: When we returned to CR Swart we never went back to Winkelspruit.

MR LAX: So you must have gone back the next day.  Because how would Jimmy have been able to tell you what he had seen happen?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson, it is possible that he told me on our way to CR Swart because we were three.

MR LAX: Precisely.  But my point is, you didn't go back to CR Swart and then come back to Winkelspruit and then go back to CR Swart, you only went back to CR Swart once, that's what you've told us, on that day.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Was it daytime when you were going back?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson, as to whether it was in the morning or during the day.

MR LAX: But it was some hours after she was dead?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't what time she died.

MR LAX: Well surely when Jimmy told you about it, he must have told you that it had happened some hours earlier.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR LAX: While you were all sleeping, because you didn't see it.  Not so?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Did Jimmy also tell you or inform you as the team leader, that he was asked to go back to the ...(indistinct) residence after she had died?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: He did not inform me.

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat the question please, I didn't hear it, something interfered with my earphone.

CHAIRPERSON: The questions was ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, "Did Mbane tell you that he was asked to go back to the deceased's house after she had died?"

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether he told me or not.

MS THABETHE: So did you know as to whether there was a ...(indistinct between Mr Coetzer and Mr Botha regarding the issue of Mbane going back to the deceased's house after she had died?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not know that, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: My last question Mr Radebe is, I just want you to clarify exactly what you are applying for, because in your evidence you don't remember whether you were present when Ntombi Kubheka was abducted, you were not present when she was assaulted, you had no knowledge of how she died or when she died, you were not there.  So exactly what are you applying for with regard to her incident, because you were not there at all, the instances?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I stated that I apply for amnesty, I would say to transport or to kidnap if ...(indistinct) kidnapping.  To kidnap those people I was involved with.

MS THABETHE: I don't think I understand that answer.

CHAIRPERSON: He  said that he's applying for amnesty for transporting and kidnapping the deceased.

INTERPRETER: And other people whom I transported and kidnapped.

CHAIRPERSON: And other people who were transported and kidnapped.

MS THABETHE: But I thought you had indicated that you were not present when she was abducted, you just picked her up from Kentucky and you don't remember what happened thereafter.  So how can you apply for something you don't remember whether you did or didn't do?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: If I was not responsible for her removal from Kentucky to a point where she was abducted, she was not known to them and therefore they would not be able to find her.  So I took part in the kidnap.  Like the first one we kidnapped from KwaMashu and then we handed him over to the white members.

MS THABETHE: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: All he said is he couldn't remember, he said it was somewhere near the sea, but he said he did pick her up and he did take her to the white members.  He doesn't say he can't remember anything and he didn't do anything.  He just can't remember details as to where he dropped her and that sort of thing.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.  I was under the impression that he says that he doesn't remember whether he was there or not when she was abducted.  I thought that's what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, not at all.

MS THABETHE: Okay, thank you.  Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hugo, do you have any re-examination?

MR HUGO: No, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, any questions you'd like to put to the applicant.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chair.
	Mr Radebe, what do you understand by the use of the word "eliminate"?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: In many instances it means, or it indicates killing.

MR LAX: You see you told us in your evidence that the whole object of this operation was to eliminate that cell.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, I was instructed that the objective was to eliminate the cell in KwaMashu.

CHAIRPERSON: Could somebody please switch their cellphone off.  Sorry, Mr Lax, about that interruption.

MR LAX: So you've said yes, that was the instruction, to eliminate the cell?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Does that mean to kill all the members of the cell?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, because all those people were, all the members of that ...(end of side A of tape)
...(start of side B)

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR LAX: And not one of them appeared in a court where you were required to testify as to what they were involved in?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR LAX: What happened to them, if you didn't testify as to ...?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson, during that time you would not enquire anything to white members as to whether what happened to a particular person.

MR LAX: ... whether you asked the white members what happened.  You saw many things happen in your time while you were working with Vlakplaas and other units, what usually happened to such people who never appeared in a court where you were required to testify?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: They died.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) the real purpose of this operation to kill everybody including Ms Kubheka?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't want to commit myself to the fate of Ms Kubheka, because she was not abducted directly, or the lawyer would be informed, because she went from her house on her own.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) she part of this cell, wasn't she the organiser of this cell?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: She was, Chairperson.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) she suffered the same fate as the other members of the cell, not so?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You said with regard to the clothing that the clothes you saw were too small to fit her.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Were they the same colour as the clothing she was wearing?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember the colours, Chairperson, but I saw the clothes that they were of a smaller size.  I don't remember the clothes that she wore when last I saw her.

MR LAX: So you can't even be sure actually, if those were the same clothes or not?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you describe how - sorry Mr Lax, how she was dressed when you picked her up at either Kentucky or the station?   Forget about the colours, but how was she dressed?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember how she was dressed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) even remember whether she was wearing a dress or slax or what?  You've got no recollection at all?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: So what was the size of this dress that you were shown now recently?