Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MR PANDAY: And one more thing Mr Mkhize, on page 21 of the same affidavit, paragraph 2.1 the translated version is that the date of the incident was the 29th March.  Now the court record reflects the date of the incident as the 25th March.  Now is there an error in your affidavit or was the an error in the ...(intervention)

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Well I cannot say because I was assaulted and that rendered me to be in a confused and dazed state so I did not really take much notice of the date so I will think that was a mistake on my affidavit.

MR PANDAY: So the date should be the 25th March as according to the court record?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: That is correct because the courts always takes notice of those dates.  As a prisoner I was exposed to various forms of assaults so I was confused.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Mkhize.  Thank Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Panday.  Mr Sibeko have you got any questions?

MR SIBEKO: Yes Mr Chairperson.
	Sir, if I follow you correctly, from your evidence you've given so far the origins of the conflict in your area, will I be correct to say it was a result of the tribal conflict, faction fighting?  Answer the question, Sir?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes there was a war that erupted between the people who lived on the farmlands and the people who lived on the tribal lands.  That is how it started.

MR SIBEKO: And yet at that time there was no political organisation involvement?  There was no involvement of any political organisation?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: At that time yes there was no political involvement because we were still young.  It was faction fighting, they wanted to capture that area.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, you say well of course this thing started when you were still young.  Now you mean to tell this Committee of course it has been an ongoing faction fighting for which was kept carrying on in a number of years or there had been some period where there was a lull or of course then of course it will stop?  What was the position?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: It was periodical, there would be an attack and the people would be driven out of their area and then there will be a lull, it would erupt again and the same people would be driven out.  There were periods when there was a lull in the war.  In 1990 we decided that we were not going to involve ourselves in the faction fighting but we were going to concentrate on fighting for the rights of the community.  We then met as the youth in a meeting in Umbumbulo.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, during that entire period when of course they had, had there been any stage where of course there was some sort of peace being brokered between the warring factions that is maybe those groups which was from the farmers and your people that in what you term the indigenous people of Empangisa?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I will not hide the facts from you.  The peace could have been brokered if the Ingosi took any initiative in the war but he himself did not take any notice of the community so there was no peace that could be brokered.  The people were just driven out, the police would also be informed and they would not take any steps.

MR SIBEKO: Yes Sir, now let me see whether I get it clear.  Now you are saying that when the Ingosi was doing nothing, how many Ingosis were in that area per se or alternatively let me refer to it this way, now these people whom you were fighting with, that is the people from the farmers and you being the indigenous Mkhize group, were you belonging under the same Ingosi?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: We are under our Ingosi, Zwele Injani because White farmers had captured parts of his land and I would then regard the people from the farmlands as belonging under one Ingosi but in practise they were under the farmers so we only regarded ourselves as belonging to the Ingosi, Zwele Injani.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words what you are telling us is that when actually these people, the farm hands actually because you say that of course they were staying with the farm, the were residing in the farms which of course were belonging to the Whites, is that correct, if I follow you correctly?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now those attacks you are telling us were launched from the White farmers to your area, is that correct?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now surely then say then what was the main reason were they motivated by the fact that when they had to drive you off you left?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: They just wanted to completely destroy us and capture our land.  It was after attacking a certain area the same White farmers would then use that land to farm so that is what was their objective.

MR SIBEKO: So what you are saying is that when those people were in employ of the White farmers?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I would not say they were employed by them but they didn't do anything.  Moreover, White people enjoyed the fighting between the Black people so they didn't care because they gained and benefited because after those lands had been captured they would then start farming them.

MR SIBEKO: And the very same ones the people you had been fighting then surely then after when they had secured those lands, your lands, then of course they would remain landless because the White farmer will be the one of course who will be the owner of those lands.  Is that right what I'm saying?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes they had a serious problem because they were now under restrictions from the White farmers because they could not farm and get as many cattle as they wanted so I could see that they wanted the land so that they could live their lives as freely as they could.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Sibeko.  Mr Mkhize can you explain something?  You've just said the White people enjoyed the fighting that was taking place between the two factions.  Can you explain what do you mean by that?  Why do you say that?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: The White farmers are our neighbours at Empangisa.  When the war was going on they did not do anything to broker peace or to contact the Amakosi that is why I say they enjoyed that fighting because we were the only people who were fighting who experienced war.  There was peace in our lands and they would not do anything but when we went to their lands they would then take up arms.  The same people from their farms who would attack us would hide in their farmlands and when we attack, launch counter-attacks, they would take up arms and they would call the police to come patrol and be on the lookout for any attacks that may be launched.  That is why they say they didn't care about our fighting.

ADV SANDI: And the issue of political affiliations in respect of ANC and IFP, how does that come into the picture?  Can you explain that?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: In 1990 the youth then met and discussed this issue of faction fighting and it was decided that that is not productive.  What we should be embarking upon is a campaign to fight for the rights of residents so we are the people who met as an organisation and they also started having meetings which they held in the open but our meetings were in secret.  I explained what I could about the ANC to the youth such education that I had received from Mr Sepo Mkhize.  I then explained to them that they should go to the Isopingo office to obtain membership cards so that we could form a united voice.  So there were people who had already joined the ANC and had membership cards.  That is how the political, that is how it became political.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, you further mentioned that well of course, now when did this issue of political affiliation exactly did it start taking place?  Was it after the 1990s or before the 1990s, that is the issue of political affiliation, IFP versus the ANC?