Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Botha.    Mr Prinsloo, just before we move on, just on this, while we're dealing with this matter, 11(b) says
"If so, state particulars."
Your amendment to, your application to amend 11(a), will that have any effect on your answer to 11(b) of your client?

MR PRINSLOO: No, chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Because that only refers to "on behalf of"?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You were re-examining your client, I don't know if you have any ...(intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: Yes please, Chairperson, I have a couple of questions.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Wheeler ...(inter-vention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...of this application will then be pended until later in the hearing.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you.   Mr Wheeler, I'd like you to just reflect carefully, and take your time, please don't get the impression that we're hurrying you up, take your time and think, and indicate to the committee what your impression was, if you cast your mind back, after you heard these statements and pronouncements made by, for instance, Mr Eugene Terreblanche, in respect of what would happen if the AWB, or the ANC took over the country, that the AWB would take it back by force, etcetera, if you could place yourself back into that period of time, the 27th of April 1994 and you have to indicate to the committee what your views were as to what would happen if the plan which you interpreted Mr Terreblanche to have encouraged you to commit, what would have happened if that plan had taken place successfully, what would have been the outcome on the day of the elections or in that period of time if it had happened as they had held out to you?

JAMES WHEELER: At that stage, with all these statements and pronouncements, we were actually afraid as to what would happen to us if there was a takeover of the government, because in the whole of South Africa's history, there'd never been black people in government, and I assumed that what these people were telling us, namely that it would be a disaster, and it would be especially bad for the Afrikaners if there were such a change in government, that caused me to think what would happen and how things would be after the elections, and in that way I was influenced and I had a growing conviction that the people in South Africa would be very badly off under a black controlled government, and that is how I made the decision to try and combat that.  The explosions that took place at the time also made me realise that these people were actually busy doing what they had promised they would do, and that we would take our land back and that we would not yield to an ANC/Communist government.   All right, today the contrary has been proved, that we are not that badly off after all, and now we realise that we should just have accepted it, and that in the past our people suffered, but today things are not that bad, and I think if we had this view then, we would have had a very different situation today, the feelings that we had then, before the elections, namely the fear that these people, the new government, would oppress us, those are feelings which are hard to describe, and those feelings were instilled in us, and that is how it happened, that is the feeling that I had regarding that period surrounding the elections, I feared that we were entering a very shaky period, and at that stage everybody was full of bravado and quite prepared to resist.   Ultimately, of course, nothing happened and we stood alone.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Wheeler, I don't want there to be any misunderstanding between the two of us, I would like you to describe to the committee, what was the plan, what was the action which you thought should take place if people correctly interpreted the appeals made by the AWB?

JAMES WHEELER: There was the issue of the water infrastructure being attacked or sabotaged and that people's electricity was going to be cut off ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Prinsloo is asking you is, what, could you tell us what you thought would have happened had this uprising, if we can call it, by the followers of the AWB been successful, also what would have happened after the elections had everything gone as you thought it should have gone, or expected it to have gone?

JAMES WHEELER: We would then have taken over the country entirely.   We would be able to restore the fact of being white people and we would not have yielded to the government.

MR PRINSLOO: Who would you have expected to have been in control of the country after the elections?

JAMES WHEELER: I think that Ferdi Hartzenberg would have been a suitable person.

MR PRINSLOO: Would you, in those circumstances, have expected anybody to prosecute you for any offences perpetrated in the execution of this war?

JAMES WHEELER: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that what you thought afterwards, or had you already reached that conclusion at that earlier stage?

JAMES WHEELER: I'd already thought so earlier.

UNKNOWN: May I just ask for clarity, you thought somebody like Ferdi Hartzenberg might take over.   I mean what made you think this, is this what was said in your party political meetings?

JAMES WHEELER: No, this is what, my own conclusion.

UNKNOWN: But what was said in the party political meeting, you know the end result will be?

JAMES WHEELER: They just said that we will take over the country and that the country would be governed by the right wing, and I assumed that perhaps Mr Terreblanche would also feature, but my own conclusion was that Ferdi Hartzenberg would be the person to take over the country.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Wheeler, during cross-examination a question was put to you, namely whether you'd told Mr Pyper to shoot, to fire a shot at the mini-bus.   May I ask you the following, in my notes I have a gap there, could you please indicate to the committee, did you at any point say to Mr Pyper that he should fire?

JAMES WHEELER: No, I said that I'd cocked the rifle and handed it to him, whereupon I accelerated to draw level with the taxi and the shot went off.

MR PRINSLOO: Towards the end of cross-examination by Mr Botha, he made a statement to you and immediately afterwards he said he had no further questions, but you didn't answer that statement that he made.   The statement was this, that it was the liquor which encouraged you to commit the offence.    What is your answer to that, was it the liquor?

JAMES WHEELER: No, it wasn't.   As we already said, there were many prior occasions when we'd consumed liquor and that was not the reason or the motive why I acted on that day.

MR PRINSLOO: In cross-examination, you were asked whether, who was your immediate senior in the AWB, did you have any contact with him immediately after the incident?   My question is, was there any question of Mr De Bruin being your immediate senior in the AWB?

JAMES WHEELER: No.

UNKNOWN: (Indistinct), you had no seniors or juniors as far as you were concerned, as an individual?

JAMES WHEELER: That is correct, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Regarding one other aspect, you've already indicated that Mr Ecksteen was not a member of the AWB?

JAMES WHEELER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, to the best of your knowledge, who amongst the other people at that gathering on the afternoon of the 27th, who, amongst those people, were AWB members?

JAMES WHEELER: It was just myself and Mr Pyper.

MR PRINSLOO: I have no further questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, (indistinct) to Mr De Koning and
Mr Botha to ask if they have any questions arising out of the questions that were put to the witness by the panel members.   Mr De Koning?

MR DE KONING: Would you just bear a second with me, I just want to confer with my learned attorney?   Mr Chairman, can I just make sure?   We're confined to matters raised by the committee as opposed to Mr Prinsloo in re-examination, we're not entitled to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.