Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: There was not one in those offices when we arrived, even in the parliament there was no one because it was after 4 and even the people, the public servants, had gone at that time.
	We went back to the college to report back and we told the people that we couldn't find Gen Nqoya.  I came with a solution as we were also scared of the soldiers, that they would come back as they had been there before because Brig Gqozo wanted them to check what was happening there.  I came up with a plan to go to those soldiers and tell them about our meeting.  I was also among the members who left for the base, the army base, just on the other side of the college.  We were welcomed by those soldiers when we arrived and we told them that we were there at the college because we were there to discuss our future in the greater South Africa and it was apparent that in Ciskei no action would take place or no voting would take place because Brig Gqozo and ADM were killing the people.  At that time Brig Gqozo had associated himself with IFP and Mangope and it became apparent that the rural areas, those states were not going to vote, but we did not tell them more about our intention because we wanted to overthrow Brig Gqozo's regime.  We couldn't trust those soldiers, that is why we did not tell them that.  We went back to the hall, the time was about 6 in the afternoon, or in the evening.  We decided upon - as the Radio Ciskei was always on guard, even the gate, the parliament gate and the state house where Brig Gqozo used to stay, it was announced that we should go and talk to the soldiers who were safeguarding Gqozo's place, to leave him unprotected because we also wanted a way, an access to Gqozo's premises.
	When we went there driving this Hippo, those soldiers were not there, they had already taken in their positions at the Radio Ciskei gate and the parliament gate and the state house, they were no longer there.  We came back.  When we went back to the college, we decided upon appointing another group of people who would go and discuss with Brig Gqozo and to tell him what was happening because Gen Nqoya did not come back, as a person who had gone to Brig Gqozo's place.  I was among the group who was sent to Brig Gqozo's place.  It was before 7 o'clock, just before 7 o'clock in the evening, the evening of the 22nd. When we arrived there at Brig Gqozo's place, the soldiers were not at the gate.  We moved towards the premises secretly.  The Hippo was just there, it was used to patrol and just look at the climate of what was actually happening.  We got into Brig Gqozo's premises and he welcomed us.
	Capt Dioko was also there when we arrived there at Brig Gqozo.  We were so surprised to hear from him.  Just before he knew anything about our visit he said we sold him out, we asked him what is it that he meant and then he said that if the police are revolting that is a sign that they do not need that particular government because police are supposed to maintain law and order and he told us that the bodyguards had left him, they were at the army base at Bisho.  He told us that he had just talked to Pik Botha, telling him that he was resigning.  We got a surprise.  He then asked us about our visit.  We told him that we were there to tell him that the police want to see him at the college.  He asked for the reasons.  We told him that we were sent there to ask him to go to the college because Gen Nqoya was sent to see him but he did not go back to the college.  He told us that he was not prepared to go to the police, but he told us to go and tell the police that he had left his office. 
	 As we were going to the state house we saw the SADF there, the South African Defence Force, the convoy.  It was there just on the other side of the stadium.  He told us that he had told Pik Botha to prevent the S A D F not to enter Ciskei because the soldiers and police had already taken over the control, that's what Brig Gqozo told us.  So we wanted proof that he was actually telling the truth and then he told us to go to those soldiers and police and he told us that he knew that the soldiers were also there at the college.  He told us to go to those people and tell them that he had surrendered but we insisted on telling him that the people asked us to go and fetch him because we had some information that Gen Nqoya was hiding in the state house.  He told us that Gen Nqoya was not there, he last saw him during the day at about 11 when they had a meeting.  
	We left Brig Gqozo's premises after hearing that he had resigned.  We reported back at the college telling the other police that Brig Gqozo - we asked him if he cannot go there and address the people and tell them and he promised that he would do that the following day and tell the people that he had surrendered, he had given control back to greater South Africa, there was no more Ciskei.  
	We went back to the college and we told them about this, but the police did not accept that, the fact that he did not come to the college to tell them that he had surrendered.  We tried to talk to the police strongly, not to force Brig Gqozo because he had promised that the following day he would go to the stadium.
	The night went on.  There were other issues that came about.  I remembered Capt Makubelu's issue, who was employed in a manner that we did not understand.  I was the one who brought that up.  I was asking the other police about their view about this case when a person is convicted in the court of law and Gen Nqoya would place that person back at work.  There was a lot of people who would be convicted and would not be taken back to work again.  This issue was discussed in the hall because just before Capt Makubelu's placement, his fingerprints were given to me to be screened and I realised that he had a record, but what came to me as a surprise was that this person was already employed but he had a record.  There were also other problems, maladministration of funds.  The police heard that Brig Gqozo had left his office but there were other problems that were being discussed, problems that were affecting the police at large. 
	Mr Goosen came at about 10 in the evening.  I did not see Mr Finqa but heard that he was with him, but I only saw Mr Goosen who came to tell us to disperse because Brig Gqozo had resigned, therefore he was requesting us to disperse.  The police were reluctant and they said that they were not prepared to disperse because they wanted to see Brig Gqozo the following day at the stadium addressing the Ciskeian people.  The most important people were the civil servants, therefore he was supposed to address them and tell them that he had given control back to South Africa.  Mr Goosen left, though he tried to beg us to disperse, but he ended up leaving the hall.  Mr Jurgens came and the others in the morning telling us that charges of mutiny would be laid against us.  There were a lot of things or events that took place on that particular day but we achieved the success of removing Brig Gqozo from his office.

MR OBOSE: Thank you.  Now let's come to the officers.  How did they happen to be there?  Do you know?