Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, that's why I told you, the question was not whether you had an office but whether you made use of those office.  So you used those offices in the sense that that is where you would go and exchange information. You wouldn't get information on the streets.  You would get into that office, sit in there, then give information properly and brief whoever, Capt Boshoff, isn't it?

CAPT BOKABA: We would not sit down.  We would enter the office and hand in our report.  Thereafter we would leave. If your Honour, you will take it that we used the office in that manner, I would accept it.

ADV MEMANI: And are you saying that you only went there to give reports for brief moments of five to 10 minutes perhaps?

CAPT BOKABA: I would say it could be five minutes, as you say, then I agree.

ADV MEMANI: And are you telling me that this joint operation centre never had meetings which would discuss and overview the security situation in Mamelodi?

CAPT BOKABA: Personally I have never been in such kind of a meeting.

ADV MEMANI: Are you saying that such meetings did not take place at that centre?

CAPT BOKABA: I was never present in a meeting at GOS.

ADV MEMANI: Captain, I am saying now, are you saying whether - are you saying that there was never any such meeting at the JOC?

CAPT BOKABA: According to my knowledge, there was never a meeting there, where I was present. There was never such a meeting.

ADV MEMANI: Are you saying that the security establishment took the trouble of establishing an office in a township which would have the security branch and the reaction unit and that office was  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Who have said they established an office in the township?

ADV MEMANI: Mamelodi is a township, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Who has said the security branch established an office there?

ADV MEMANI: I am saying that the security establishment, I am not saying the security branch, M'Lord.

ADV MEMANI: Now Captain, are you saying that the security establishment would have established an office in Mamelodi where only casual reports would be given?

MR DU PLESSIS: But Mr Chairman  ... (intervention).

CAPT BOKABA: If there was a meeting held at JOC, I didn't have any knowledge of any meeting.  Let me explain to you, if there was a meeting at JOC, that meeting took place when I was not present.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Maybe you differ on the definition of a meeting. Captain, when you give a report to, for example, Capt Boshoff, surely he would discuss it with you, wouldn't he? Would he just listen and you just give the report and then he would go? Wouldn't he ask you questions, clarification, more details?

CAPT BOKABA: Chairman, yes, that is the case.  Myself and Capt Boshoff and Dennis Selate, when we took our reports to Capt Boshoff, mostly we would explain our reports to him as our commander.  At this time, such-and-such a time there would be such-and-such a thing or an incident that will take place in Mamelodi. Like protest marches, meetings, things of that nature.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That discussion you have with him about the report you give, it could well be, also understood to be a meaning?

CAPT BOKABA: It can be a meeting in that way.  Maybe I can understand it in that manner.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, if Mr Memani, that was your intention to put that as a meeting, I think you'd better explain it because I didn't understand it to be a meeting either.  For the sake of the Committee then, make it clear what you understand to be a meeting so that I could also follow it.

ADV MEMANI: I understand it to be a meeting when people go and report and when they are reporting matters or discuss. As the Chair pleases.
	Now you worked closely with Jacques Hechter and Flip Loots, is that correct?

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, I worked with them.

ADV MEMANI: You had a general knowledge of their activities, such as the fact that Loots would go to KwaNdebele at times?

CAPT BOKABA: Not all office actions did I know.

ADV MEMANI: You had knowledge of what he does, isn't it?

CAPT BOKABA: They were committed by him, not me.

ADV MEMANI: I am not speaking about commission of criminal acts. I am speaking about the general performance of his legitimate functions as a policeman.

CAPT BOKABA: I do not think he would always come to me and tell me that he was in KwaNdebele doing this and that.

ADV MEMANI: But what I am saying, you had that knowledge of the fact that he does have something to deal with KwaNdebele, for instance?

CAPT BOKABA: Let me say I didn't have any knowledge of such.

ADV MEMANI: If you had a vague knowledge of what he does around Pretoria?

CAPT BOKABA: I worked under his command.

ADV MEMANI: Now why can't you say you had a vague knowledge of what he did in Pretoria?

CAPT BOKABA: Are you saying Capt Loots was supposed to come to me as a subordinate, Constable Bokaba, is that what you are telling me?

ADV MEMANI: You see, Captain, I regard you as an intelligent person who has, who occupies a senior rank, and your difficulty with answering questions is going to create a bad impression about you.  Now what I am saying now again is you had a vague knowledge of the activities of Flip Loots. That must be so, you worked with him, you worked under his command.

CAPT BOKABA: You are forcing me to say that Capt Loots was supposed to come to me and say chaps, Constable Hendrik Bokaba, I am going to KwaNdebele, in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: No, what I think what counsel wants to know from you, is did you hear rumours around the police station at COMPOL about the activities that Capt Loots was getting up to?  What he was doing?  Did you hear a policeman talking about it?

CAPT BOKABA: This question is not easy for me. I do not understand the question? What kind of actions?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I please come in here.  It is not specified what activities are referred to.  We know that there was evidence before you about certain activities, but they were involved in lots of activities. Perhaps my learned ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: If one is just asking him did he hear gossip at the police station. He can say yes or no. You have told us, as I understand it, that you reported there every morning and you were there most afternoons at COMPOL, and there were many other security policemen at COMPOL, it was the headquarters of the Northern Transvaal branch, wasn't it?

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And presumably you spoke to other policemen about your duties, about their duties, about how hard the work was and matters of that nature.

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, we did talk usually about such things.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you hear what Capt Loots was doing?  What operations he was engaged in with other policemen?

CAPT BOKABA: Are you referring to operations that he was involved in?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CAPT BOKABA: No, I do not know about these operations.

ADV MEMANI: You know, Capt Loots has told us or rather Mr Loots has told us that he has implicated you in your amnesty application.

CAPT BOKABA: I am not implicated in his amnesty application.  He did state it, but I am not implicated in his application for amnesty.