Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

WITNESS:   No, all of them are at school but others are still looking for work.  The one who is coming after Oupa who was born in 1971 is looking for work.  She left school because I've no money to help her.

MRS GCABASHE: Are you working?

WITNESS:   No, I'm not working.

MRS GCABASHE: How do you live?

WITNESS:   I'm just staying at home and then at times I get a few jobs and then at times I don't get work.

MRS GCABASHE: Are you staying with all the children?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: And then at school, who's paying for them?

WITNESS:   There are people - I have rooms at the back.  There are people who are renting rooms at the back and then these people pay monthly.

MRS GCABASHE: Would you tell us what happened to Oupa?  Would you tell us exactly what happened before the - in Tabong - what was happening in Tabong during that time?

WITNESS:  Before 1986 he was a leader of the UDF.  Around 1984 he was the leader of UDF.  Then he was arrested and the police assaulted him.  Then Oupa disappeared.  Then I leant that he was in Lesotho.

MRS GCABASHE: When did he disappear?

WITNESS:   In 1986.  Then I went to Lesotho, then I got him there.  Then I told him that he should come and stay at home.  Then he said he will not come home, he is going forth.  Then he left.

MRS GCABASHE: Take your time.  Take your time, Mama.  We know that you are telling us about the painful story.  It's painful to many people.

WITNESS:   Then he told me that he  won't come back home.  Then I came back home to Welkom.  Then around 1986 in June I learnt that they went to Lusaka.  Then in '86, '87, in 1988 I got a phone from Zambia - from Tanzania telling me that he's now in Tanzania.  Then he told me again that he's changed to Zambia and that I should come to Zambia and bring the passport.  This phone came back from Oupa.  I talked to him directly.  Then he was calling himself Blondie.  Then I went to Tanzania - to Zambia.  When I arrived at Zambia, I found him there.  Then I found that the leader there is Chris Hani - that I should give Oupa a passport.

MRS GCABASHE: When you went to Zambia, when was it?

WITNESS:   I went there in 1988, August.  Then I went to Zambia.  I brought him the passport and some clothes.  I found him there.

MRS GCABASHE: This passport, did he leave it at home?

WITNESS:   They said I should make a passport in Lesotho.

MRS GCABASHE: What was the intention for him to get a passport from Lesotho?

WITNESS:   Chris Hani said I should give hi the passport from Lesotho so that he would be able to move in and out of Lesotho.  I stayed for a month and two months in Zambia then I returned home.  When I arrived the CIDs came to arrest me, to question me about my trip to Zambia.

MRS GCABASHE: Who was asking you those questions?

WITNESS:   That's Venter who was asking me those questions and Hugo.  This Venter was a policeman.

MRS GCABASHE: Where was he working?

WITNESS:   I was told that they were special branch.  The other one was Mogoregi and the other one Rampai.  The other one is Mogoregi and the  other one is Rampai.  There were two policemen.  The other one is Rampai.

MRS GCABASHE: Were they special branch members?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: When they were asking you about this son did you tell them where he is?

WITNESS:   They asked me, "Are you from Oupa?"  Then I said yes.  They asked me what was I doing in Zambia then I said I brought him clothes.  Then they told me that, "You're not telling he truth," therefore I'm supposed to tell the truth.  So I was released, then I went back home.  After I had returned, Oupa arrived.

MRS GCABASHE: Where was it?

WITNESS:   He arrived at the beginning of 1990.  After he arrived I got a phone.  It was around 12 o'clock.  The person who phoned was telling me as to whether do I know that Oupa has died.  It was in 1991.  Then he asked me as well, do I know as to whether Oupa has died.  Then I said, "Who's Oupa?"  Then he said Oupa George Mashiya.  He said, "If you don't believe, come to the police station to verify that he has died."  Then I asked him, "Who are you?"  Then he said, "I'm Tladi Mofokeng."  Then I told him that, "You are the one responsible for his death."

MRS GCABASHE: What made you think that Tladi was the responsible person?  Why do you say that?

WITNESS:   He mentioned on many occasion that Tladi wanted to kill him and he said, "Mum, I do know what have I done to this man."  And when a phone call came in to tell me that Oupa was dead and when I enquired which Oupa, he said, "Oupa George Mashiya and if you don't believe let me take you to the police station."

MRS GCABASHE: Now, who was telling you that he died?

WITNESS:   The  same Tladi Mofokeng who gave me a call.

MRS GCABASHE: But you are talking of Ben here.

WITNESS:   Ben only appeared when we went to court.  After he told me whether I knew Oupa was dead, a family member came and they said to me, "You will have to stay back at home.  We will go and verify as to whether it was Oupa."  And when they came back they said, "Yes, it was Oupa at the mortuary."  We stayed in that condition not knowing who the killer of my son was and we received a letter after quite a long time and we were told that the perpetrators had been arrested, then the case will be heard at Virginia.

MRS GCABASHE: Can you please stop because now you are mentioning a lot of names and they're confusing me now.  Do you know these people?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do, but I saw him for the first time at the court.

MRS GCABASHE: What did they say?

WITNESS:   The proceedings of the court went on for two days and Ben was not found guilty.  He was released.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you know these people?  Are they residing in Welkom?

WITNESS:   The one that is alleged to have shot him was from Venda.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you know his name?

WITNESS:   No, I do not know his name.

MRS GCABASHE: Was he sent by Ben?

WITNESS:   Ben gave him money to kill Oupa.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you know Ben's real name?

WITNESS:   No, I don't.   You only knew him as Ben?   ---   Yes, we only knew him as Ben.  He wasn't a policeman.

MRS GCABASHE: But in your statement it's written that he was a policeman.

WITNESS:   No, I do not know really because the  person that shot - no, I'm referring to Oupa.

MRS GCABASHE:   In your statement it's written that he is an SAP.

WITNESS:   No, I didn't mention that.  I said Mofokeng was a policeman.  Tladi Mofokeng was a policeman.

MRS GCABASHE: What was Ben?

WITNESS:   Even the person who shot at Oupa was a policeman.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, who's Ben?

WITNESS:   Ben is just a resident here at Tabong.  He's just a resident.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, what is his involvement in this whole story?

WITNESS:   I do not know.

MRS GCABASHE: But in your statement it's written.  Let me remind you.  You said in 1992 your son was shot dead by Ben who is a policeman.  Do you remember saying that in your statement?

WITNESS:   No, the police was accompanying Ben.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, were you referring to Tladi Mofokeng when you said he was a policeman?

WITNESS:   Now, the Venda guy that I referred to was ordered by Ben to kill and we didn't know that he was the killer but Dudubala went to the police station to give the statement.

MRS GCABASHE: Where's Dudubala now?

WITNESS:   He was together with Ben.  Dudubala is the person who gave the police information that Ben arranged the death of my son and they were taken to the hostel and there was a white Cressida car.  This person came out of the car.

MRS GCABASHE: Which hostel are you referring to?