Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

MR BURMEISTER: Are you aware of the fact that on the 8th of July 1977, Dr Hirsch, a physician, was called in to examine Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: I was informed of this subsequently, but this was all still dealt with by Col Goosen.

MR BURMEISTER: So did it also come to your attention at a certain stage that Dr Keyle, a neurologist's opinion had also been gained in the matter. Did you hear about that at a later stage?

MR SNYMAN: I heard of this at a later stage, your Honour.

MR BURMEISTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BURMEISTER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Snyman, the reason for the interrogation of Mr Biko, was that only due to the pamphlets which he would have authored?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it had to do with the breach of his restricting orders - restraining orders, his travel or trip to Cape Town, the pamphlet as well as other information available to the security branch at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You've given testimony on a question of the Chair that you did not see when Mr Biko's head knocked against the wall, but however that you were informed thereof.  Can you recall this?

MR SNYMAN: I do not exactly understand your question, what you mean by saying that I was informed thereof?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You said that you heard of it.

MR SNYMAN: No, I heard the knock against the wall.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So, you heard the knock against the wall?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You gave testimony in addition that subsequent to the fall of Mr Biko, Niewoudt and Marx came to assist.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you tell us exactly what you did at that point?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I was present in the office, but I was not involved in the scuffle or the fight.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So you stood on the side and you watched the events?

MR SNYMAN: As allowed by the space in the office, yes, I was standing there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You made no effort to bring assistance to your colleagues to restrain Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, the younger members took part in this fight.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In addition in your testimony you gave testimony and I will quote
"The body was on the ground, the head against the wall."
And then you said:
"It appeared like a person who was knocked out in a boxing match."

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would you agree with me that if this is the case;  if he looked like a person knocked out in a boxing match, that this would indicate that there had been an assault on him?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What then would it mean if you're saying that he's knocked out as if in a boxing match?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, that was as a result of the struggle, the fight to restrain him.  In the process his head knocked against the wall and he was temporarily dazed and confused.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: With regard to the so-called Goosen statement;  at that time what would your rank have been, when you made the statement?

MR SNYMAN: I was a major, your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So you were a major?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You also knew, as a major, that it was wrong to act in this manner?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: According to testimony and according to my learned friend, Mr Bizos' questions to you;  this would imply that you were not responsible for the death of Mr Biko.  Would that be the case?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: However, at that time, in the year 1977, you did make false statements. In addition you come to us today and you remain silent.  You fail to inform this Committee what exactly you said?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, we have - of course we've said that that was a false statement.  The statement at the judicial inquest.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If it is the case that you did not - were not responsible for the death of Mr Biko, why then lie; why make false statements?

MR SNYMAN: The false statement, your Honour, was made under the instructions of the commanding officer who put the words in our mouths, in a manner of speaking, with regard to what we had to say in our statements.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But you could have said to Col Goosen that you were not willing to lie, because you were not responsible for the death of the man?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, that would have been the correct procedure, but we just fell in with the plan of the Colonel.  He might well have had more information than we did at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: According to your application;  you were promoted to the rank of sergeant in the year 1955; from sergeant to a colonel in the year 1985 - that would be on page 2 of your application.  1955 - sergeant?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And then at the end of it, 1985 - colonel?

MR SNYMAN: 1964 - warrant-officer, 1968 - lieutenant, 1971 -captain, 1976 - major, 1981 - lieutenant-colonel and 1985 - colonel.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: From the rank of colonel to the - sorry - from the rank of Sergeant to the rank of colonel;  how did you obtain these promotions?

MR SNYMAN: I studied very hard to obtain these promotions.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So this was because of your studies;  not because of your efforts to restrain unrest and so on?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not receive any of these promotions for free, I worked very hard to achieve them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: With reference to your application on page 7, the first paragraph thereof, the second last sentence, I will read it;
"Many of the real facts were concealed or kept silent with regard to it, during the drafting of our statements in that matter."

MR SNYMAN: Would that be on page 7, your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, page 7, right at the bottom.  My question to you, is what would the other facts be with regard to which you remained silent?

MR SNYMAN: In the first place, I do not believe that the knock of his head against the wall had been mentioned.  In my folly, I did not know why we had to colour in the statements in this way, but in
honesty I must say to you that this was under the instructions of Col Goosen, who put the words, as in a manner of speaking, in our mouths with regard to what we had to say in the statements.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would that be all?  Then on page 8 of your statement, with reference to paragraph 2.2 and I read
"Information had to be obtained at all costs in order to combat the revolutionary struggle by means of the arrest of people, the detention of people and the criminal prosecution of people."
Do you see that?

MR SNYMAN: I see that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Does that include assault or murder?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then paragraph 2.4 on the same page, somewhat lower;
"Steven Bantu Biko was personally involved and in addition had access to valuable information which would have allowed the security branch to effectively neutralise the BMC and the BPC to restrain them and in this way, to stabilise the unrest situation."
Did you read this, did you see this?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, I saw it or I see it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This person, of such importance, this person with such important or valuable information has now been arrested and assaulted.  How did you now intend to obtain this valuable information from this person?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I have said in my testimony - my statement or my testimony that Mr Biko did not want to offer us his co-operation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So the best method was to kill this valuable information.

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.  After the events of that morning it was no longer possible to obtain information from this man.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just one moment, Mr Chairman.  Could you explain to the Committee why are you applying for amnesty in this matter?