Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Many cars were bombed, I don't know as whether his car was bombed, it didn't come to my knowledge.  Maybe it happened that - yes, it happened but I have no knowledge of that.

MR STANDER: Can you recall bombing a Toyota Corolla light deliver van, creamish of colour?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: You mean Ford Cortina?

MR STANDER: According to my instructions it was a Toyota Corolla.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I don't remember well?

MR STANDER: But it might so, you wouldn't contest that, that it was the car - one of the cars that was bombed by either you or part of the security police.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were in teams so we wouldn't target only one car, we would hit political activists cars, so we were not working in one area, so other people bombed in other areas.

MR STANDER: Tell me, Mr Citi Mzuzwana as he was called at that stage, he was also a member of the ...[inaudible] Youth Congress - MYKO as it has been called?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I know that there was such kind of organisation, I started to know when he was campaigning for "Release Mandela" together with Curtis Nkonto and Terra Lacotta.

MR STANDER: Now tell me, as regards to Matthews Mzuzwana, he was shot in his head at some stage, were you involved in that incident?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I didn't take part, I know it was arranged that with the riot squad unit that whoever was participating a march or who was a leader of COSAS, they would give information to the police or the riot squad that they should be shot when they can have that kind of an opportunity.  I know that there was such kind of an instruction and that kind of arrangement from Colonel Coetzee but the time that he was shot I was not there, I know that he was shot.

MR STANDER: Now, please explain to this Committee, when was it arranged that he should have been shot?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That was the time when there were mass meetings when they arranged the meetings for all the schools.  In many instances there were leaders who would move from one school to the other school to take the students out to go to those kind of gatherings.  After that information was received, that is then that the arrangement was made that they should - those who were responsible for those mass actions - he was in a list, that's Oupa Mohapi, Makhubalo, Monasi and etc., then they gave that list to riot squad members that they should know them and be able to identify them.  That is the kind of information I know.

MR STANDER: By whom did you say was the instruction given?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Colonel Coetzee is the one who made those arrangements and then we would leave and go to members of riot squads like Bridge whom we knew that he was the person that was hating the comrades, then we'd show him the people who were targeted to be shot.

MR STANDER: Was he part of COSAS at that stage? I'm talking about Matthews Mzuzwana.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true.

MR STANDER: And being that, that he was part of COSAS, that was the reason why he was targeted to be shot at?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In Vulamasango he was the one and together with Oupa, people who were in the leadership who were organising COSAS activities and they were always in the forefront, that is why arrangements were made that he must be shot.  It is because he was taking students from schools to hold meetings.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions as regard to these two people.
	Just another further aspect that has been drawn to my attention Mr Chairman.   Who accompanied you Mr Ngo, at the stage when the bombings took place?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Where, who's house?

MR STANDER: The house of Citi Mzuzwana.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was Mamome, Tsoametsi, Mtyala and myself.

MR STANDER: Was Mr Motsamai also there?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, Motsamai was there.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

CHAIRPERSON: Can we now proceed?

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Ngo, do you have Exhibit B in front of
you?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I interrupt please and obtain some indication from the Chair clearly some questions have arisen on our side from what Mr Stander has put to Mr Ngo now.  I'm not sure which would be the correct time for me to put those questions to Mr Ngo but I would imagine it should occur before he's re-examined so that it can be dealt with at one go.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't realise that you wanted to put anymore questions Mr Visser, if you do, you might as well put them now.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I didn't suspect it either or expect it either.
	Mr Ngo, you say that Colonel Coetzee gave instructions to the riot squad for them to shoot Mr Matthews Mzuzwana and did I understand you correctly?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, he gave instructions to members of the security branch that they should point out people of the riot squad that who are the people in the leadership in the marches and in the organisations - in the activities of COSAS, so that the people of riot squad when the were going block those marches, they should know the targets whom they should shoot.

MR VISSER: So, do I understand correctly then, that members of the security branch were told by Coetzee to go to the riot squad members - was this while there were marches going on? - to identify the leaders.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was a thing which was discussed then he informed us so that we should tell the members of the security branch - that's the thing we knew.  It was not only cause when there was a march, it was a thing which it was with us all the time, that if there is a march we should have already informed them about the identity of the leaders so they should be shot.
	Those members of the riot squad didn't know political activists, they were supposed to get that information from us about people who were problematic politically.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, did you yourself receive such an instruction and carry out such an instruction by indicating to members of the riot squad who targets were?  You yourself, did you do that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is Sergeant Mamome who was informing them.

MR VISSER: Was he the only one who did that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If it happened I was supposed - I was supposed to do that but I didn't receive that instruction that I should do that.  Mamome was instructed directly by Coetzee but I knew that was part and parcel of my responsibility to do that because as the thing he used to say, he didn't say we should do it immediately.

MR VISSER: Were you present when Mr Mamome was instructed directly by Colonel Coetzee to point targets out to the riot squad?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he said that in a parade.

MR VISSER: Within earshot of all the members on the parade?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he was telling us but the person who was responsible for transferring that instruction was Sergeant Mamome - to the riot squad.

MR VISSER: Why were the rest of you not instructed also to inform the riot squad as to who targets were supposed to be?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He told Sergeant Mamome - I would do it if the opportunity arose but there was no situation which demanded me that I should inform the riot squad but the person who directly instructed was Mamome.

MR VISSER: But you knew who Matthews Mzuzwana was, why didn't you tell the riot squad: "He's one of the COSAS leaders, members of the riot squad and I think you should shoot him"?  Why didn't you do that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Mamome has already identified though - the targets, they knew already, they knew all the time.  They were just waiting for an opportunity to shoot him.

MR VISSER: How many targets did Mr - how many targets do you know of that Mr Mamome identified to members of the riot squad?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I wasn't present when he identified those people.