Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-13

MR MALAN: And the incidents of 3rd of November and 4th of November, were false flag operations.  If it was so, then it would be written into that official statistics?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Then my question to you then, were these false flag operations or was it acts of terror?

MR BOTHA: In terms of 3rd and the 4th, yes it was real acts of terror.

MR MALAN: Why would the entries then take place after the entry of the 18th of November?

MR BOTHA: I don't know Chairperson, I cannot explain why.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, I don't know if you have made a study of Exhibit A, but are you aware of any other so-called false flag operations that would be written down here as an incident, except for the Phoenix incident to which we have referred to in Exhibit A?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, not off hand.  I would have to study the document first.

MR VISSER: For the information of the Committee and for us, could you study the document and see if you come across any other incident?

MR MALAN: And to go with this question, while  you are studying the document, can you recall from your memory any other false flag operations that you can tell us?

MR BOTHA: Of which I came aware during our amnesty operations, was the false flag operation Bulwer.

MR MALAN: Anything else where you were involved with from your own knowledge, that you were involved with false flag operations?

MR BOTHA: Not as far as the elimination of persons were concerned.

MR MALAN: No, but this was not necessarily so, I am speaking of an explosion.  Were there any of those false flag operations?

MR BOTHA: Not acts of terror.  Placing of arms, yes, many of them.

MR MALAN: But not explosions?  Thank you.

MR VISSER: Can we just go to the last issue.  You say that in the second last paragraph of page 10 of your application, you refer to the occurrences on the following days.  Are these now the days after the 5th of November in 1988?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What would you like to tell the Committee of what happened?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, we made contact with a unit in kwaMashu and one of the informers there, infiltrated the unit in order to find information to the identity, their logistics, their infrastructure and so forth.
	He won their trust and they trusted him with information for planned operations.  On the 18th of November 1988, he reported that the railway line at Phoenix was targeted.

MR VISSER: And that date, is that the 18th, is that correct that the identification occurred?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Continue please.

MR BOTHA: Arrangements were made with the informer that he would lead the unit to a specific place where we could arrest them.
	Me, Du Preez and Wasserman waited for them at the Avoca Bridge.

MR VISSER: Avoca?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.  We expected four members, only three turned up.

MR VISSER: Who were they?

MR BOTHA: Sibusiso Ndlovu, Amanzi Filakazi and Elias Gift Matjale.

MR VISSER: What did you do there at the Avoca Bridge?

MR BOTHA: We arrested them and we went, we transported them with the kombi to the safe house.

MR VISSER: Is this the same safe house that you kept Pumeso?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was there anyone there when you got there?

MR BOTHA: Taylor waited for us at the safe house.  At the safe house, we questioned the three of them.

MR VISSER: When you arrested them or captured them, did they have anything with them?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, they were in possession of three SPM limpet mines with the detonators.  The limpet mines were not armed.

MR VISSER: Where were these limpet mines and detonators?

MR BOTHA: It was in a carrier bag.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Did you then question them concerning these arms?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.  It was necessary to know how the weapons came into the country and who was responsible for it, and also whether they were in possession of other arms.
	They gave us a long explanation about where they were going with the arms, and they said they wanted to throw it away and that it was not their arms, it was someone else's.

MR VISSER: Did they also say where this person would have been?

MR BOTHA: It was that this person went back to Swaziland, that is what they said.

MR VISSER: So then you knew that was not the case?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson, because we already knew the correct facts by means of our informer.

MR VISSER: And those correct facts are as you have said, that they were members of the unit and they were on their way to go and place the limpet mines at a place which was identified as a target?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.  The railway line at Phoenix was identified as a target of sabotation.

MR VISSER: Did you seriously consider to turn the three people you arrested, and to persuade them to work for the Security Branch as informers?

MR BOTHA: No Mr Chairperson.  My plan was not to recruit them as informers.  There were three and it is very difficult to handle three if all three of them promised their cooperation.
	We already decided that these people as part of the unit under Nxiweni were responsible for acts of terror, that they would be eliminated.

MR VISSER: And they also indicated that they were not willing to cooperate because they told you the lie about the person who would have owned the arms?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Very well.  So you say that you took a decision with regards to them at that specific day, and that is on the 18th?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you make this decision on your own or what was the situation?

MR BOTHA: It was a decision taken by me and Taylor together.  In this case although Taylor and Wasserman was present when we discussed this case, about where the elimination should take place, how it should take place, everybody agreed about the way and method that we would have used.

MR VISSER: And that was what?

MR BOTHA: That we would find, choose a place in the same vicinity which was identified by them as the target area, that we would firstly shoot them, and then we would blow up their bodies, so that it would look as if they had an accident when they placed the limpet mines there during the execution of their acts of terror.

MR VISSER: What was the consideration about how you were going to do it, was it to be at the specific place they identified?

MR BOTHA: It would have taken suspicion away from the informer, because it was already known that these people were involved in acts of terror.
	The target was probably more widely known than only themselves, more known to other people, not only to themselves and nobody would have suspected foul play from the police's side.

MR VISSER: What did you do then?  Who were they and what did you guys do?

MR BOTHA: After we questioned them about any other information that we did not know ...

MR VISSER: Just before you continue, were these three people assaulted?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.  I cannot remember who slapped whom, but they were slapped.

MR VISSER: In the face?

MR BOTHA: Yes, in the face.

MR VISSER: In order to obtain what?  Why did you do that?

MR BOTHA: To get more specific answers with regards to weapons we hadn't found yet, the identify of other people and maybe other people who might have been involved, the identification of other targets who worked with them, etc.

MR VISSER: Did you know who was the fourth person who you referred to before?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, I did know.

MR VISSER: Did you know where you could find him?

MR BOTHA: No, we did not know where he was.  In fact, we expected him there that evening.

MR VISSER: Did you find out during your interrogation of these three people?  Did you obtain that information from them, about where the fourth person was to be found?