Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR JORDI: And then you have already agreed that you instructed your attorney, Seriti, Mbundla and Partners, to write this letter dated the 24th of May 1995 to the Commissioner of Police and I just want to read to you out of that letter.  There it says,
"That in respect of the Dlamini and Mbatha allegations, the investigation into Dr Asvat, that it is a murder investigation against our client and her former bodyguards."
These two statements, both of which you have acknowledged as yours, are mutually contradictory and cannot be reconciled and I want to put it to you that you are prepared to say and do anything that suits you from moment to moment.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What cannot be ... (intervention).

MR KUNY: What do you have to say?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... reconciled?  What cannot be reconciled.  Just read that again.

MR JORDI: Let me just read it again.  I read to you from the NBS interview of the first of February 1989, which you have already acknowledged is ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I understand the first one.

MR JORDI: Right.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Can you read the second one?

MR JORDI: And that is to the effect that you do not find it necessary to have bodyguards. That is on the first of February 1989.  Now, we remember that Dr Asvat was killed, I think, on the 27th of January 1989, right.  So, the interview was after the murder of Dr Asvat.  Now, the investigation, this letter refers to an investigation being conducted by the police into the murder of Dr Asvat and here you say,
"... that it is a murder investigation  against our client ...",
in other words, you,
"... and your former bodyguards.",
to paraphrase the letter.  
 Here you say that they were your former bodyguards, here you say you do not have bodyguards and I put that those statements are mutually contradictory and that you are prepared to say and do anything that suits you from moment to moment.  What do you have to say?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is ludicrous.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are distorting facts, you are quoting that letter totally out of ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: .... context.  I will let my lawyer ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Chair.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... respond.

DR BORAINE: Mr Semenya.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is really a suggestion.

MR SEMENYA: Chair.

DR BORAINE: You are interrupting your client, please continue.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, I think we need to contextualise the statements.  The interview is of first February 1989.  The letter relates to bodyguards in 1997.  Of course, as a Parliamentarian, she has been placed with security and bodyguards.  Now, to say that it is a mutually contradictory and, therefore, must demonstrate that client will admit and not admit certain things when it suits her, not against that background, it would be an unfair statement to make.

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordi.

MR JORDI: Mr Chairman, ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Briefly.

MR JORDI: Yes, I would like to briefly reply to what Mr Semenya, my learned friend, has said.  He says that this letter relates to bodyguards that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had in 1997.  Well, first of all, the letter was written in 1995.  So, he is mistaken on that aspect and, secondly, this letter refers to the murder investigation conducted into the death of the late Dr Asvat, which, the death took place on the first, I mean, on the 27th of January 1989.  So, the letter, to put it into context, this letter refers to her former bodyguards being involved in a murder investigation in respect of an incident which occurred on the 27th of January 1989.  So, it is referring to her former bodyguards of 1989, not of 1997, as my learned colleague has said.  My learned colleague is clearly mistaken.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Does that complete your ...

MR JORDI: Well, unless my learned friend has something else to say, I think I should now shut up shop.

DR BORAINE: Good.  Well, he is shaking his head and thank you very much indeed.  I think ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Thank you Mr Chairman and I want to thank Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.  Thank you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Thank you Sir.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Well now.  So, I would like to have an indication of how many more have still got questions.  One, two, three.  Yes, all right, you will appreciate that there are three of you, there is also the panel, Mr Semenya, yes, Piers.  So, please, be as brief as you can.  Who is going first?  Ms Hassen.

MS HASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Just to put your mind at east, I do not intend dealing with the issues exhausted by my learned colleagues.  I will just put to the witness my client's version and just deal with certain aspects related thereto.
 Just to identify myself, Hasiena Hassen.  I act, I am the representative of Charles Zwane, also known as Bobo.  
 Madam, Charles Zwane said that he was present at the first meeting when the idea of the Mandela United Football Club was introduced.  He further advised that you were assisting the club with the provisions of uniforms and such. Did you assist the club in any other way?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I did.

MS HASSEN: Can you explain ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If I ... (intervention).

MS HASSEN: ... further?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... understood the question.  Did you ask if I assisted the club with uniforms?  There is a bit of noise, I am sorry.

MS HASSEN: All right.  I did say, yes, you assisted the club with the provisions of uniforms, those ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MS HASSEN: ... are my clients instructions.  What I need to know, did you assist the club in other way?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If?

MS HASSEN: Did you assist the club in any other way?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The club?

MS HASSEN: Yes, the Mandela Football Club.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I assisted them with the uniforms only.

MS HASSEN: Was that your only assistance?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MS HASSEN: May I ask where you obtained the funds to purchase such uniforms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I must have obtained the funds from sources who use to assist us during those underground days.

MS HASSEN: Thank you.  In your statement to the TRC you said that Bobo, who is also known as Charles Zwane, lived in your house.  Charles denies that he lived in your house, but admits to visiting your house as he was Sis Thembu Buthulezi's friend.  Can you give us the correct version now?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was, in fact, in and out and if he did not live permanently there, he would be quite correct, because sometimes he would have put up with the other boys.

MS HASSEN: All right, I just wish to, I just wish now to put it to you that Charles denies emphatically ever staying overnight at your place.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The version he gives must be the correct one.

MS HASSEN: Thank you.  Do you know if Bobo was a MK cadre?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I subsequently learnt he had been recruited by one of the cadres.

MS HASSEN: Do you know if Bobo was a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not to my knowledge.

MS HASSEN: Thank you.  Charles said that or Bobo said that he received training in the use of an AK-47 by Oupa Seheri in Zinzi's bedroom at your house.  Was this a common practice?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What?

MS HASSEN: Was this a common practice?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not at all, not to my knowledge.  I learnt of those details here, in fact.

MS HASSEN: So, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not think they came out even in his trial, to my recollection.

MS HASSEN: All right.  So, in other words, are you going to confirm that MK cadres were never trained at your house?