Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

EPHRAIM MOGALE: These people were made to fight against each other.  I have told you that there was a saying that the Ndebeles should be killed.  Some of these people wanted their businesses and the King had never said that, our Kingdom never gave out an order for anyone to be killed.  I want to go straight to your question.  I would say our struggle was a foundation because we can now build on top of the struggle.  You find that all structures were belonging to these two groups.  They were separate structures, but I want to say the structures have combined now.  Now, we should build on the foundation that we have laid before.  We should avoid any conflict of the past.  There is unity now.  We should carry on from there and go forward.
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MS SEROKE: You say you moved to Bophututswana.  Do you not have an intention to come back to your place.

EPHRAIM MOGALE: We do want to come back because my father was buried at Uitflow and I know I am a communist, I want my people to live peacefully.  I want them to be situated next to where my father was buried.  My mother is a domestic worker and she is staying where she is working.  The SACC helped us to erect that shack and we are still there.  We would gladly want to come back.

MS SEROKE: I thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Russell Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Ephraim, if you recall, earlier there was a witness who said that before that raid on Moutse, the first of January raid, that there had actually been, that youth from the Moutse area had gone into parts of KwaNdebele and they had attacked property and they had attacked people.  Is that true?  What is your recollection of the nature of the conflict and the youth themselves, how were they involved in the conflict?

EPHRAIM MOGALE: Imbokhoto, we have already indicated its structure.  The Imbokhoto intimidated the people of Moutse and when they were fighting among each other the unrest spread to KwaNdebele.  The first thing I want to say is I respect the youth of that day because they took an initiative to combat crime.  We did not have crime in this area and our people were so keen to build, to develop the township.  There were parks built around.  I have indicated earlier on that war is barbaric, but in a war situation there is a point to move forward, but there is that stage, again, in war where everybody loses control and no control can be maintained.  My heart was very sore because the
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police did not have anything to do with our story.  They would just ignore us and people were being killed.

RUSSELL ALLY: But, Ephraim, to come back to the point.  Is it the case that the youth were also involved in attacks and that there were a number of businesses that were actually destroyed.  So much so that many people who were thought to be Imbokhoto supporters also had to flee and, in fact, were displaced into this area called Verina.  Is that what happened as well?

EPHRAIM MOGALE: That is what I heard.  Yes, these people were attacking and a response would be severe and everybody who sides with Imbokhoto would be (inaudible).  At one stage there was this issue that if your car registrations is KNA, you do not have to drive anywhere and we said, please, let it not be the situation, but it is true, yes, the youth stood up because they were powerful, they were the young lions and even today I still sympathise with their families towards Verina who fled this area and we say to such people we are sorry for the attack.

RUSSELL ALLY: And how were Imbokhoto people identified?  What was used to say that that particular person was Imbokhoto?  How were they identified or was it indiscriminate or was their specific way of saying that is an Imbokhoto, an Imbokhoto supporter?

EPHRAIM MOGALE: You must realise that people know each other.  I am not sure and ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.  Lights, okay.  Alright.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

EPHRAIM MOGALE: At the time that it was a problem.  If there were no structures to control you would mistakenly hit
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someone innocent, but I must say people could identify that this man belongs to Imbokhoto and this one belongs to this organisation and everytime when there was supposed to be a hit, rightful people would be hit, but it had to be clear that nobody could come close to the King because the King was protected.  Those who have been killed were the attackers and at one stage I said to the comrades, guys, let us control this fighting.  I was a Chief organiser in this area and I said to them, listen, there are people dead and they told me the whole situation.  I said to them, alright, everybody who engages in this war is going to be killed then.  I am deeply hurt as in now.

RUSSELL ALLY: Ephraim, in some of the statements which we got from the other side of the conflict, from Imbokhoto people who were attacked and lost businesses.  There were, they implicate or they suggested that it was not just youth or UDF, but that underground structures and they said that the MK were also involved and that people had weapons and AK47's.  Do you want to respond to any of that?

EPHRAIM MOGALE: Let me tell you what I know.  I know MK very well because I am a former MK.  I am on pension.  I got a lot of training in Moscow, Soviet Union.  Let me tell you the policy of the ANC.  It was not true that we were attacking people's property.  At the headoffice I heard that the MK should be involved in military actions, not to attack individuals.  The comrades at that time knew who was wrong and who was right, but to say the people had been attacked by the MK, I want to despise that.  It is not true.  The MK was only complimenting the work that was done by the people at that stage, but the attacks by the MK, I am sorry.  I have listened to the leaders of the ANC confirming that,
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yes, the MK attacked the police station, would never leave the police stations alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you Archbishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Ephraim, were you the first President of Cosas?

EPHRAIM MOGALE: Yes, my Lord.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Ephraim, what are you doing now?

EPHRAIM MOGALE: I am unemployed.  I am only doing temporary jobs.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What kind of work do you do?  You know that among the people of Moutse and KwaNdebele there are those who hate war and they want peace and reconciliation.  Would you carry on and help them and how would you go about this?

EPHRAIM MOGALE: We are very lucky, if I have to give you an answer, the second King Mayisha is a peaceful person.  King Matede on the other side is a peaceful person and I founded Constralesa and others.  I know all the Chiefs and we started Constralesa with the present Chiefs and I know that all members of Constralesa are peace loving people.  They want peace.  I think, as a matter of urgency, we must have a unity festival that will include everybody and people from Verina will have to come.  I do not go with the saying that people have to be punished.  Everybody has to come to such festival and I think I am the rightful person to organise such a festival because I was involved in structures, bringing the people together.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Are you telling me now that people are not scared of you even though you are calling yourself a communist.  Do you not think they will find it difficult to
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communicate with you?