Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I do remember.  When I arrived, when we arrived with my father he could still speak.  It could be that my father was in a state of confusion, but I did speak to him because by the time he left for the hospital, I knew who had stabbed him because we only managed to get hold of his girlfriend some time later and by that time we already knew who had killed him.

MR DEHAL: Mr Mbukazi, I don't want to be unfair to you, I'm not saying you're lying, but as I see it we've got about four versions from you on this aspect alone and I want to be fair to you and tell you what they are.  When Mr Sibanyoni asked you questions you said both you and your father arrived at about the same time to your brother on the ground, your deceased brother, the contradiction arose that you said your brother spoke when your father in his statement says your brother could not speak, you then said your father was under the influence.  You've remembered that and I have put that to you earlier.  The second is that when I dealt with those versions you said you arrived before your father arrived, you spoke to your deceased brother and when your father arrived, it is possible that your deceased brother was not able to speak.  Do you remember that second version?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Now when I put these two contradictory versions to you, you've now added a third and a fourth.  You say
"My father and I arrived together.  I did speak to my deceased brother, he spoke to me.  My father must have been confused because he was under the influence"
Do you remember that one?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I was the first person to alight from the vehicle and I was the first person to reach my brother.  My brother followed me but I was the first person to reach my brother and I questioned him as to what had happened to him and he informed me who had attacked him.

MR DEHAL: Tell me, where was your brother stabbed, where on his body was he stabbed?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: All around the chest as well as on the stomach and under the armpits, such that you were able to see the lungs from the outside.

MR DEHAL: How many stab wounds were there?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I may not be in a position to recall correctly because of the time that has lapsed, but I think he was stabbed more than six times because after being stabbed, he managed to run a few paces and he fell at the sports ground.

MR DEHAL: Now how do you know that?  How do you know that after he was stabbed he ran a few paces and managed to fall at the sports ground?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: When we reached him his trousers and shirt were no longer on him, they had been left on the spot that he was stabbed and he also told us about that spot and we went to pick up his clothes.

MR DEHAL: Yes, you're not answering my question.  How do you know that he ran a few paces and then fell at the sports ground?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: We followed the trial of the blood on the road and discovered his clothes there, because when we discovered him he was not dressed, we only discovered his clothes on that spot that he had been stabbed.

MR DEHAL: And did he explain to you how his clothes came to be off his body?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: They had teared his clothes off his body when they stabbed him.

MR DEHAL: Do you know why he took his clothes off?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry I couldn't hear the answer.  Did he - the deceased, did he take off his own clothes or did the attackers undress him?

MR DEHAL: His words were - sorry, the interpreted words were "He had his clothes off when they stabbed him".  I presumed he had taken his clothes off, so I led him by saying "So why did he take his clothes off?"  ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: No that is not correct, I said his clothes were teared off when they stabbed him.

CHAIRPERSON: It was what?

MR PANDAY: I think, Mr Chairman, when he was questioned as to how his clothes were taken off or why it was taken off, the witness testified that he was informed it was torn off.

CHAIRPERSON: Torn off?

MR PANDAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR DEHAL: Mr Mbukazi, you say you saw your brother and his body and you would say that he was stabbed more than six times, parts of his lungs were showing.  If you say more than six times, how many more than six times would you put that at?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: As I've already mentioned that I do not recall correctly, but the wounds were more than six.

MR DEHAL: If somebody were to tell you there were only three stab wounds you would say they were lying, would you?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: That is not correct.

MR DEHAL: You don't think you are exaggerating the number of wounds? - just for effect.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: No.

MR DEHAL: You see your father's statement says, in the last paragraph on page 14
"Other than the three stab wounds he sustained prior being under my care, he did not sustain any further injuries."
I think what he is saying there is there were three stab wounds to the person of the deceased, your deceased brother, and that prior to that there were no injuries on this person's body.  So that these three stab wounds arose as a result of the applicant's activity.  You don't agree with that.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I would dispute that.

MR DEHAL: And I may tell you that on my instructions, during the trial of the applicant and Mr Msomi who was the other accused, there were only three stab wounds proven and throughout the length and breadth of that trial and indeed this hearing, it appears common cause that there were only three stab wounds inflicted to the person of your deceased brother.  I take it you dispute that too.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I would dispute that because I am the person who reached him, who saw how many wounds he had because even his clothes were torn off because of those stab wounds.

MR DEHAL: On page 10 of the bundle this very same Alzina Luthuli, who was the girlfriend of your deceased brother, says in paragraph 3 in the last line that your deceased brother was stabbed three times.  In the last sentence she says
"Whilst they were holding him down, black male Gebu Nguzane(sic) (that's the applicant) then proceeded to stab him three times."
Now she was there and she says this, but you don't agree with it.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, I dispute it.

MR DEHAL: Okay.  On your version, despite the more than six stab wounds to the person of the deceased, your brother, and his lung being visible through those stab wounds, you say he was able to speak, unlike what your father says, that he was unable to speak.

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: Yes, when I reached him I asked him what had happened at which he informed me that he had been attacked by Gebu and Mr Mbambo.  That is when we got him into the vehicle and they took him to the hospital and he died on the way.

MR DEHAL: Mr Mbukazi, have you spoken to Alzina Luthuli about this incident since this stabbing?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I've never spoken to her.

MR DEHAL: Did you avail yourself at the trial of the applicant when he was charged with the murder of your late brother?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: I would not have been in a position to attend Court, because my father was still alive then.

MR DEHAL: So you were not a witness in those proceedings?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: No, I did not testify in Court.

MR DEHAL: Was your wife a witness in those proceedings?

FREDERICK MFANAZOTINI MBUKAZI: She did not testify.