Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, Mr Pienaar and members of the Security Branch frisked the bags that the persons had with them in the vehicle.  We did not find any visible arms on their persons and when we went through the bags there were also no weapons there.

MR HATTINGH: So there were no weapons in the vehicle, not on the persons and also not in their baggage?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And what did you do then?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, it created a situation that one did not expect and it immediately brought problems, which caused a crises in my opinion and which would have been an embarrassment for the police as well as the government and I requested from Mr Pienaar whether he had any East Block weapons or equipment and my recollection is that he did indeed have a Makarov pistol which was at his office, which served as an exhibit in some or other case and it is also me recollection that there was one F1 and an RPG handgrenade, which was at his office.  I am open to correction on that matter, but that is my recollection.  One of the persons who was at the scene went and collected these items and they were placed at the bodies as proof that there were weapons there.

MR HATTINGH: Were shots fired with the Makarov?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Not at the scene, Chairperson, not that I can recall.

MR HATTINGH: Very well.  In other words, the impression was created that these people were armed?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  It was a matter of, it would looked better at that stage with the political situation and the press which caused problems for the police in that sense.

MR HATTINGH: And was an inquest held later?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you give evidence during those proceedings?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I did, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And did you give a false version there?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  I would just like to qualify it.  Certain of the facts were correct, but the general impression which was created would have been false.

MR HATTINGH: What was the general impression that you wanted to create?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That these persons were armed.  It was known that they were indeed MK members.  They were attached to the Intelligence Unit and this we established later, and they did cross the border illegally.  They were on their way to Northern Natal. But the aspect surrounding weapons was not correct and the fact that a shot was fired from the vehicle and that we reacted on that shot, that was not correct.

MR HATTINGH: Was that the version that you presented, that a shot was fired on you from the vehicle?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.  And because that evidence was given under oath it caused another crime to be committed.

MR HATTINGH: Very well.  And was the scene visited by an officer who had to draw up a shooting incident report?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, but at that stage I was not there.  I do not want to distance myself from anything, but I would just like to tell you why.  I know that the bodies were loaded onto a bakkie, not a mortuary vehicle as far as I can recall, and I and one of my members went back to the offices.  I cannot recall whether we were there when the vehicle was removed.  We then went to sleep.  We arrived at the office and about an hour later we went to bed.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall who the members were who participated in the operation along with you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, it was myself, Mr Flores, Mr Ras and somewhere I place another person possibly.  I am not certain who drove to the border, whether it was one of my people or whether it was one of Piet Retief's security people.  I am not certain.

MR HATTINGH: So you spent the night in Piet Retief.  And the following day?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: From there I and the members who participated with me went to Pongola early the next morning and from there we went to Matubatuba, or not Matubatuba, I think Mkuzi, or Matubatuba, where we met Brig Schoon and the rest of the group who were on their way to Island Rock.

MR HATTINGH: Did you go to Island Rock from there?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, we did, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you report these incidents to Brig Schoon?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, at Island Rock I discussed the matter with him and I mentioned to him that there were some problems with regard to a lack of arms which were found on the persons, but that it was under control and that we sorted it out.

MR HATTINGH: Very well.  And a few days later, Mr de Kock, it was the 12th, there was another operation that took place.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, the infiltrations continued.  The information that the source provided was that there was a group of approximately 36+ trained members of MK, who would be infiltrated by this group commander to Natal.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know who the commander of the group was?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, it was a Charles Ndaba.

MR HATTINGH: This Mr Ndaba was one of the persons who was arrested and his arrest led to the well-known Operation Vula came to light, is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.  I would just like to mention - and Mr Pienaar would be able to support me here because C1 worked on a national basis.  I cannot recall all the information, but Mr Ndaba was a very active member of MK and in that sense he was a very capable person with regard to his actions and his managerial abilities in operations.

MR HATTINGH: When did you get this information that on the 12th people will infiltrate the country?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, we did not have a fixed date which the source could give us about the following infiltrations, but I would like to recall that the second infiltration would be in relation to the successful infiltration of the first group and the second group.  So those groups would report back to the groups in Swaziland whether they were successful and had achieved their objective.

MR HATTINGH: But on the 12th you once again became involved in a similar action?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: When was that operation planned?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, there were no planning as such, but the source would keep Mr Pienaar up to date with regard to infiltrations, or the possible planning thereof.  At two opportunities, it may be more, I could be corrected here, but I drove from Island Rock to Mbazwana Police Station, which I think was about 25 or 30 kilometres from Island Rock, and from there I had contact with Mr Freek Pienaar.  The reason therefore was that if an infiltration did take place while we were busy with this meeting, then a group of my people would leave to assist them.

MR HATTINGH: And did you receive the information from him that it was expected that people would cross the border once again?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, there was the threat of another infiltration and the time was not known.  At that stage, with our departure from Island Rock, the group met at a place by the name of Moolman, it's a small type of forestry station which consisted of a post office and a bar, about 30 kilometres from Piet Retief.  The whole unit rendezvoused there before we would depart for Pretoria, and from there I liaised with Mr Pienaar and Mr Pienaar informed me that they expected an infiltration that evening.

MR HATTINGH: Was Brig Schoon still with you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, he was, because the unit would rendezvous there and everybody would be there.  I think between 11 and 12, there would be a final braai there and from there we would all depart for Pretoria.

MR HATTINGH: And did you plan to go to Piet Retief and assist the Piet Retief Security Branch once again?