Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-11

JUDGE WILSON: Shouldn't he be asked about it?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That can be done through the office of the Attorney General.

HASSAN MALL: Yes Mr du Plessis?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, Captain Hechter has given me
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an indication that he can't remember where in the press he saw it, it might have been in one of these television interviews, he's not a hundred percent sure.

JUDGE WILSON: It appears that Mr Mamasela has been talking to a great many people, it may be one or other of the reporters could give information here if he has gone public with this, it should be possible to follow it up.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes that should be Mr Chairman, it could also be very handy in a criminal trial.

HASSAN MALL: Mr du Plessis, have you any questions to put to your witness?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS

HASSAN MALL: Is he going to give evidence in any other matter?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes there's one further matter Mr Chairman, that is the incident which you find on page 129.  Mr Chairman this is also an incident for which Captain Hechter has applied for amnesty.  I've pointed this out to my learned friend Mr Mpshe, it was never included on the list of incidents but I would request the Committee that I be afforded the opportunity to also call Captain Hechter on this specific incident because they were both involved.

JUDGE WILSON: He won't be prejudiced in any way as he is not here today?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No Captain Hechter. Captain Hechter deals with this application on page 155 of his application, it's the kidnapping and death of an unknown activist.

HASSAN MALL: Yes you may proceed.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	W/O van Vuuren can you please read from page 130? Mr Chairman according to the application on page 129 this 
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happened in 1986 or 1987, is that correct W/O van Vuuren?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Good.  Can you please read it?

UNKNOWN: The activist was possibly involved in many bombings, necklacings in Eastern Transvaal where innocent people were killed.  He could also possibly have been involved in limpet mine explosions in Pretoria.  Captain Hechter gave the order that a certain ANC activist who was a member of cell of Harold Sefolo had to be picked up and questioned.  Information was gained from the questioning of Sefolo that he was an ANC activist.  Mamasela told us that he traced the activist in Mamelodi. Mamasela and I went to the man's shack in Mamelodi, I was in the back of the station wagon, we were going with and Mamasela would meet him at a certain point in a house in Mamelodi.  The man came out and got into the vehicle with me and Mamasela.  Mamasela and him were speaking in Tswana about irrelevant things, I have a little knowledge of Tswana.  When got out of the built up area I pushed the gun against his head and I told him that I would shoot him if he moved.  Captain Hechter was then picked up from where he was waiting in a combi with, possibly, Slang.  We put the activist in the combi and we drove off.  Hendrick Nkala was also possibly with them.  Captain Hechter then throttled him with a wire around his neck to get information from him.  After that Captain Hechter and I talked about this incident.  It could have been me as well, I just want to mention that.  He was thereafter throttled, strangled to death and we went to a very deserted road in Bophuthatswana, we put petrol on him and we wanted it to seem as if he had been necklaced.  I suspect that he was already dead when the petrol and the
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tyre was put around his neck.  The aim of our actions was never to necklace an activist.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Okay Warrant Officer van Vuuren, was the intention to eliminate him?

UNKNOWN: Yes it was the intention.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you remember whether you got any information from him during your questioning?

UNKNOWN: It was long ago.  We must have gained information from him because the name Harold Sefolo, during a previous application was given to us.  The aim was to eliminate him, so we must have gained information from him.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you remember his name at all?

UNKNOWN: Not at all.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know if Captain Hechter can remember it?

UNKNOWN: I doubt if he would be able to remember it?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Your political goal is set out on page 133 to 140, General Motive and Page 140 and 141, Specific Details Regarding Political Aims. Is this true?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And page 142(A), I just want to refer you to paragraph 11(a).

UNKNOWN: It's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Page 142 paragraph 11(a), just read it please. No, only the second part, it was in regard to Victor and Cronje's orders with regards to the emergency conditions.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr du Plessis you said that Captain Hechter would also testify on this incident, do you have any recollection of this incident?
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ADV DU PLESSIS: I think it's one of the incidents which he can't remember, I just want to make sure, yes he can't remember anything about this, you will find that on page 57 of his application, he can't recall anything relating to this incident.

ADV DE JAGER: You said he accompanied you on that evening?

UNKNOWN: Who?

ADV DE JAGER: Captain Hechter?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Now the direct instruction came from whom as far as you were concerned?

UNKNOWN: Captain Hechter and I decided this issue together, jointly.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was the senior member?

UNKNOWN: He was the senior one but our relationship at that time was not the relationship between a senior officer and a subordinate, we were friends rather by virtue of the type of work we were doing at the time so we jointly decided to eliminate the person.

HASSAN MALL: Was his name revealed to you by Mamasela?

UNKNOWN: Yes his name was told to us.  We had his name at that stage.

HASSAN MALL: And is the position that you no longer remember it?

UNKNOWN: I can't recall it at all.  The place where we necklaced him after he was dead, that I can remember, I can remember the place.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether there was an inquest?

UNKNOWN: I don't know at all.

HASSAN MALL: At the stage when he was burned, besides you and Hechter, was there anybody else involved in it?
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UNKNOWN: Mamasela was there and I think that Slang, Danie Selahle and Hendrick Mokaba could have been there but I don't know, that's just what I think, it's possible but I can't say for sure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr van Vuuren, who instructed Mr Mamasela to track down this unknown activist, was it yourself or Mr Hechter?

UNKNOWN: I think it was Captain Hechter who said we should look for this person.  That was arising from the information which we got from Harold Sefolo.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The information that you obtained about his possible political activity, particularly with regard to the bomb and petrol blast explosion, was that information obtained during the late Sefolo's interrogation?

UNKNOWN: Yes it was it was obtained during Sefolo's questioning.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand your evidence, you got hold of this man, you then met Captain Hechter and you drove off in your combi.  You're not quite sure who was there but there may have been four or five of you?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And when you stopped, Captain Hechter began throttling him with a wire around his neck.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, it could possibly have been me.

JUDGE WILSON: You could have throttled him?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Not a very good way of getting information is it?