Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR DU TOIT: Communication Committee.

WITNESS:   ... communications, and the third one had to deal with social issues.

MR DU TOIT: I've got the English translation here - if I may help you - would be the Constitutional, Economical and Social or Welfare Committee.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   That is correct.  I might add here as well that the sub JMC consisted of the same - or had also the same subcommittees attached to it.

MR DU TOIT: Now, you have already said that under this final

MR DU TOIT: /column

MR DU TOIT: column should actually be the hundreds of Mini or Local Joint Management Centres, which would be at district level.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR DU TOIT: It goes into a column which says NKK.  That is the Nasionale Koordinasie Komitee, as you told me or showed me.  I translated it by National Co-ordination Committee.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR DU TOIT: To the right that goes into a Cabinet Secretariat, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

MR DU TOIT: And to the left into a State Security Council.

WITNESS:  Yes, that is correct.

MR DU TOIT: The State Security Council has three subcommittees, or had three subcommittees.

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

MR DU TOIT: Mr Chairperson, again I will not give the Afrikaans wording, but I will translate as I translated what was given to me.  TNB would be Branch of National Interpretation.  The Afrikaans word is vertolking.  Branch of National Interpretation.  TS would be Tak Strategie, or the branch dealing with strategy.  The TSK is the branch dealing with strategic communication or strategiese komunikasie, strategic communication.  Is it correct that the State Security Council, if you just look at the diagram, goes into the Working Committee of the State Security Council?  That's WK van SVR, the Working Committee.  That into a Cabinet Committee for National Security, into the Cabinet, and into the State President, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR DU TOIT: On the right-hand side the Cabinet Secretariat goes into the Working Committee of the Welfare Management System.  That WVS I would translate English would be Working Committee of the Welfare Management System, and

MR DU TOIT: /that would

MR DU TOIT: that would also go into Cabinet Committees, into Cabinet, and into the State President, according to the diagram.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR DU TOIT: Is this, according to you, how the Joint Management System was managed, the institutions which were managing the Joint Management System?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What is the arrow pointing upwards?  What does it signify?  Above NKK.

MR DU TOIT: The NKK?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That arrow which points upwards, what does it signify?

MR DU TOIT: I think I must ask the witness.  It would appear that it would go into State Security Council left, Cabinet Secretariat on the right, and would also be - do you have an idea why the arrow is also pointing upwards there, although it is not connected to any ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.  It has direct working if necessary through the State Security Council, but can work directly straight up by not having to go through the State Security Council, or not having to go through the Cabinet  Secretariat.

CHAIRPERSON: To the Working Committee?

WITNESS:   Sorry, it has its own direct line going up.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps this might be a convenient stage.  Have you finished with this diagram?

MR DU TOIT: I would like to, because what I would like to do then is to come back the specific practical situation.  If it would be convenient I ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Very well, we'll take the short adjournment now and resume at 11.15.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION
BRIAN VICTOR MITCHELL

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, insofar as the leading of evidence is concerned I have no objection to my learned friend exceeding the bounds of leading if he wishes to on non-controversial matters.  I have no objection - to save time if he wishes to lead I have no objection, but if the Committee has, well, you must indicate.

MR BRINK: QUESTIONS BY MR DU TOIT CONTINUED

MR BRINK: Mr Mitchell, we dealt with that diagram just before the tea adjournment, and paragraph 92 on page 23 of Volume I.  Now, would you continue and make the observation in paragraph 95.  With hindsight what is your view of the situation in mid-80s in South Africa?  Paragraph 95.

MR BRINK: "It is true that the lack of political vision of the Government had plunged South Africa into a hopeless situation of violence and turmoil.  The police were always too scared or too proud to admit failure.  This hopeless situation had gone into despair and panic.  I used to sit and watch the hierarchy of the SADF and the SAP at joint meetings on unrest in Natal and see them at their wits' ends."

MR BRINK: Was there a political solution in sight for the people that you refer to?

WITNESS:   There was no political solution within sight.

MR BRINK: /Could

MR BRINK: Could the unrest be contained?

WITNESS:   No, the spread of the violence and the attempts to prevent it had failed.

MR BRINK: And what happened in this respect in the headquarters in 'Maritzburg?

WITNESS:   I used to watch the brass from Pretoria, and the brigadiers at Divisional Headquarters in Pietermaritzburg, and the officers seconded to Pietermaritzburg, pile all the responsibility for preventing the violence upon the shoulders of Captain Terblanche and his Riot Unit.

MR BRINK: Go on with the strategy please.

MR BRINK: "The strategy of attaching roughly 16 000 special constables as an auxiliary force to roughly 48 000 existing police force members was arrived at to solve the solution."

MR BRINK: I want to deal more fully now with annexure A, the strategy document, and we shall come back to the next paragraph.  This is the document, the final version of which was compiled in February of 1987, which deals with the alternative structures, etcetera, in South Africa, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR BRINK: Now, this is on page 52 of Volume I.  Now, is it correct that from pages 60 and following reference is made to the situation - the development of a revolution in the then Rhodesia?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR BRINK: And what is done is there is an overview of what happened in Rhodesia, and why the revolution there, as it is called, went the way it did, is that correct.

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

MR BRINK: After that was dealt with the development of the

MR BRINK: /revolutionary

MR BRINK: revolutionary struggle, as it is called, in South Africa is developed, and an overview of that is given as from page 67 and following, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

MR BRINK: Of more importance is the period of page 74 from 1976 to 1986.

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairperson, may I, just for your convenience, place on record that I will be following rather closely, except here and there, the brief schedule of relevant pages which I have made available to you so that you will have a handy reference to the various pages.  Now, the period of '76 to '86 would deal with the riots, the unrest which started in Soweto in '76, and right up to the unrest situation which you have been describing in some detail in the middle 80s.

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

MR BRINK: It refers to the strategy of the ANC/UDF/SACP, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

MR BRINK: And the nett result of that is to be found on page 85, where the strategy is set out, namely to make the country ungovernable, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.