Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I do not agree, I'm not dishonest.

MR BOOYENS: Another pattern that we find in this statement which Mr Koole also says he did not give to you, and I'm referring to the fact that the assaults, the way in which the assaults took place and the period of time or the during of these assaults were aggravated and they were made much worse than what he told you.  	I'm now referring specifically to paragraph 15 where an assault is being described on all three of these persons, he said what is being described in paragraph 15 never took place.
	He refers to paragraph 18 where it is said that they were locked up and that the process continued the whole day during which they were assaulted and interrogated, he says that this did not take place.  The description that you give us or that's given there never took place.
	He says in paragraph 23, he said that he never said that the people did not get food and water, it was something that was added.  Furthermore he says that they also were not continually assaulted or that one of them had an open wound on his head.  So in other words here is a pattern again.
	There is once again a pattern in the statement which Mr Koole is denying.  He says that the picture which is being sketched here is a much darker picture than the one he told you.  What is your comment on this?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That is not true, I wrote down what Koole told me.  I read the statement to him and he signed it.

MR BOOYENS: I don't suppose you have the originals any more?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, I do not.

MR BOOYENS: Where was the original statement taken?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: In my office in Pretoria.

MR BOOYENS: At what time of the day did he arrive there?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It was more or less at 12 o'clock that day that we were busy in my office.

MR BOOYENS: This is a rather short statement, at what time did you finish with this statement?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I cannot recall the exact time, most probably an hour or so after we started.

MR BOOYENS: Now why didn't you just have it typed immediately?  A skilled secretary could surely type this in a matter of an hour and why didn't you let the man sign it right there and then?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I cannot remember why.  There was only one typist and possibly there was a lot of work and it had to stand over until the next day.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I see that I've already passed 1 o'clock, I would in any case like to hear what his diary, what stands in his diary.  May we take the adjournment now?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Booyens, I do not believe there will be any objection by Mr de Lange if you look at the diary and try to find out what it is so that we can shorten the procedures as much as possible.

MR BOOYENS: Sometimes there are such objections because it could possibly contain sensitive information, it depends on Mr de Lange as to whether he wants to show it to me or not.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should try to come back at a quarter to two. I think we should try to finish with Mr Mamasela today.  We'll adjourn until a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr de Lange, I'm not going to go through the detail of each allegation and the contradiction that Mr Koole alleged took place, I'm not going to handle all that but I will put it to you, I've counted quickly and there are 24 factual things he says he has not said, it's not true.  
	In other words I think if I understand his evidence correctly, he reckons it's things you've sucked out of your thumb.  Just put on your microphone please.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Chairman, as I've said before I've written down what Koole said, I didn't add anything, I didn't omit anything.

MR BOOYENS: During the adjournment we looked at your diary and if we look at that it seems, and I'm just going to summarise - I've given it as evidence to the Commission, that on the 22nd of April '96 you went to Cradock, you were at Post Chalmers and later that day in Port Elizabeth and at Glen Connor and I quickly summarise.  Is that correct?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, it was on the 23rd, Tuesday the 23rd.

MR BOOYENS: 23rd April yes, not 22nd April.  And he also indicated to me that on the 26th of April '96, it's a diary entry, it seems at 09H50 you went to Mathabele and at 10H30 you arrived there.  You're handwriting looks like that of a doctor, at 11H30 you signed his signed his statement.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Is there something else.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mamasela gave evidence that you were also involved when his statement was taken.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I received a statement from Mr Mamasela, it's not the one concerning this issue, it's not the one concerning this issue.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I understand.

MR BOOYENS: Also you've mentioned, and just to make sure we see it completely, that you also took another statement from Mr Koole concerning another issue, which issue is that?  Is that an issue that relates to the Eastern Cape?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, not at all.

MR BOOYENS: I do not have any further questions, thank you Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: The entry on the 26th April 1996, 11H30, can you just complete that for us please.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: He signs his statement.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the one before that.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: We arrive at former Warrant Officer Koole at 10H30.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr du Plessis?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have only one or two questions.
	Mr de Lange, when the statement was taken, not when it was signed but when it was taken down, who was present at this discussion?  Was it only you and Koole there?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It was only me and him when the statement was taken down.

UNKNOWN: Was there any documentation regarding this issue there?  I mean other statements, other people?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No.

UNKNOWN: Was it the first time you spoke to him concerning these events?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, it was not the first time.

UNKNOWN: When was the first time?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I cannot remember the date but we spoke about it several times before we flew to Cradock whilst we were in the aeroplane, on the ground etc.

UNKNOWN: But it was the first time that you'd officially taken a statement?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And how did you take this statement, did you take it down the way he told you?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I took it down as he was telling me this.

UNKNOWN: In chronological order?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, in chronological order.

UNKNOWN: So in essence these are really his words, it's not - it's is actual words?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, it's his actual words.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Well it wasn't verbatim?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, Mr Chairman, it wasn't verbatim.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were satisfied that there were no language problems, there was no communication problems?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Mr Chairman, there was no communication problem between me and Mr Koole, he can speak Afrikaans, read and write it and he never suggested that he didn't understand the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you read back to him what was in the statement before you asked him to sign?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, I did.  As you can see from my pocket book entry I spent almost an hour with Mr Koole in his home before he signed this statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr de Lange, I'd just like to make something clear, can you remember how long before he signed this statement, Mr Koole, did you have consultation with him in the office?