Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR MARTINI: So they didn't leave the "gebou"?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Mr Williams, if you look down at ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Mr Alexander.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Alexander, further down the page you say, you know where you list the gentlemen that were present at the Cape Youth Congress, point 8.

CHAIRPERSON: The people because they weren't all gentlemen?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There were females ...

MR MARTINI: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: By that I mean there were females as well.

MR MARTINI: My apologies
"... three whites whose names I did not know, as well as another man whose name I also do not know."
	Do you remember the white man's name?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I cannot recall.

MR MARTINI: Did you know a Peter Oliver?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.   Under no circumstances was a Peter Oliver a member of Kewtown Youth as well, I don't know a Peter Oliver.

MR MARTINI: Right.

MR LAX: This is not a list of the Kewtown Youth.

MR MARTINI: No, this is ...

MR LAX: This is just - yes.

MR MARTINI: The persons that left, in terms of the Kewtown Youth, the people that were at the "vergadering", you say there were three people, white people ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, this is the second meeting, this is not the first meeting.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The Cape Youth Congress meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is not the Kewtown Youth.

MR LAX: Just put your microphone on.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, yes.  If you look at page 8, paragraph 2.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes?

MR MARTINI: You list three whites, I don't know if it is female or males, and you say there was another white man.

MR LAX: It says "'n ander man", nie ander wit man nie."

MR MARTINI: Was that man Peter Oliver perhaps?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I do not know a Peter Oliver, sir.

MR MARTINI: You don't know ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Peter Oliver was never part of Kewtown Youth or of that forum, I don't know a Peter Oliver.

MR MARTINI: Yes, but you said that your meetings were open to everybody, to the public, that anyone could arrive?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, but obviously if people arrived, we would let the person introduce himself to the bigger forum.

MR LAX: But hang on, just can I stop you.  The Cape Youth, there has been no discussion about whether those meetings were closed or open, Kewtown Youth were open, that is what he said so far?  Talking about Cayco, that is a different matter.

MR MARTINI: Let me ask you, the Cape Youth Congress meetings, were they open to the public?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Those meetings were only affiliated branches, not open to the public.

MR MARTINI: So in other words if there was a Cape Youth Congress meeting going on, only members were allowed to attend, it wasn't open to any member of the public to come in?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR MARTINI: Right.  But your evidence is the Kewtown Youth Movement's meetings were open to the public?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Now, is it also correct that various members of the Kewtown Youth Movement were members of the Cape Youth Congress?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Were you a member?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Of both, when I say both, Kewtown and Youth Congress?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Mr Williams?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Fatima Omar?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Fatima wasn't part of Kewtown Youth, but she was part of Cayco.

MR MARTINI: She was only part of the Kewtown Youth?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: She wasn't part of Kewtown Youth.  She belonged to a different Youth.

MR MARTINI: Well, I am asking you.  Miranda Abrahams?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Different Youth.

MR MARTINI: She wasn't part of ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Kewtown Youth?

MR MARTINI: Let me help you this way, I am going to read out these names, tell me if these names belong to both movements, in other words Cape Youth Congress or Kewtown.  Yourself, a member of both?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Both.

MR MARTINI: Peter Williams, member of both?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Both.

MR MARTINI: Miranda Abrahams?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Cayco.

MR MARTINI: Shinaaz Lamera?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Cayco.

MR MARTINI: Regina Isaacs?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Cayco.

MR MARTINI: Nazeema Mohammed?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Cayco.

MR MARTINI: Fatima Omar?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Cayco.

MR MARTINI: Now, did you all know each other?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, we knew one another.

MR MARTINI: Did you know the members by name?  Sorry, in the Cape Youth Congress, in the Cape Youth Congress, did you know each other?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, broadly because we saw them much more frequently, so I would know their names.

MR MARTINI: No, no, the members of the Cape Youth Congress, did you all know each other?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The Cape Youth Congress was a vast organisation sir, it had numerous Youth Branches, it was Youth structures throughout the Cape.

MR MARTINI: How would you know if someone arrived to a meeting there, whether he was a member?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was regionalised.   (Indistinct) consisted of x amount of branches.

MR MARTINI: Right, but at your meeting at ELC, would you know all the members?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We would be familiar with faces or names.

MR MARTINI: Let me finish.  Would you know all your members when they arrived at that meeting?  Would you know who they are?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, it may be that these matters are completely foreign to Mr Martini, I think the evidence is clear that the Youth Congress meeting consisted of representatives of Youth organisations, it was not the members of the organisation as a whole that attended it.
	I don't know if Mr Martini wants further explanation, I think the witness will deal with it, but he must not assume with respect, that any member of any Youth organisation could come to an Executive meeting.

MR MARTINI: No Chairperson, I don't assume that, I am asking the witness to make me understand.  Now please tell me, the Cape Youth Congress, the members, I understand it might be regionalised, now this Cape Youth Congress, this regional congress of which you were a member, they met at the ELC, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Right.  Would you know the members of that regional congress by name?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I would know most of them by name and those which I don't know, someone else in that meeting, present, would know.  We all came from various branches within the region.

MR MARTINI: All right, so when someone arrives at the meeting, there was no identification process, was there, to get into the meeting or not?  You just walked in?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It wasn't a secret organisation sir, we don't do that.

MR MARTINI: That is my point.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: But we knew our members, not by name or by face etc, because we ...

MR LAX: Mr Alexander, just get a bit closer to the microphone.  As you go further away, it gets softer.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sorry, I want to see his face, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, was this an Executive Meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was a regional meeting, it was representatives of the various Youths within the region.  Cayco was broken into regions, we had the Athlone region which consisted of eight or ten branches of respective Youth.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what I am trying to get at, was it restricted to people who were in managerial or executive positions within their branches, or theoretically could a couple of hundred people pitch up?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was never a couple of hundred people.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but I mean theoretically?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was just people from Executive Committees of their branches who attended this sort of Regional meeting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MARTINI: You say it wasn't secretive, so why didn't you open to the members of the community, as you did with the Kewtown Youth?