Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   It is exactly just that.  I did that only whilst being in the Security Police, never before that and never after that.  And I always also say that I did not create hit squads as such, but activists

MR JANSEN: /did disappear

MR JANSEN: did disappear long before my time, during my time, and it escalated dramatically after my time.

MR JANSEN: That's all the questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

MR DE JAGER: Mr Coetzee, were you ever convicted of anything?

WITNESS:   Criminally not, nothing at all.  I was involved in a departmental trial in 1985, charged on seven counts that I behaved in a manner unbecoming to my rank, which basically resulted or was a result of myself trying to expose illegal phone tapping by the then Commissioner of Police, Johan Coetzee, and the then Minister of Police, Minister Louis Le Grange.  I wrote letters to the different - to Mr Koos van der Merwe, to Mr Wynand Malan, who discussed it with Minister Chris Heunis at the time.  I eventually wrote letters to Dr van Zyl Slabbert, who sent up Mr Thiaan van der Merwe of the DP, with whom I had consultations for two days, and to whom I even in a vague manner - well, explained what was going on during my time in the Security Police, but it was more specific about the phone tapping, illegal phone tapping.  But apart from that no criminal record.  I was eventually found guilty on four or five counts that I behaved in a manner unbecoming to my rank because I said police will plant people with diamonds if they can't catch them;  that - I got certain information as to the illegal phone tapping from a friend of mine who had a relationship with a policeman's wife, and as a result of that I was charged;  that I was absent from leave without duty for one day (sic);  that I approached Major Craig Williamson to bring $150 000,00 for a friend into the country, which they made a big scene of, but if one thinks that Craig Williamson is an

MR DE JAGER: /international

MR DE JAGER: international thief and an international terrorist, who stole millions and brought millions into the country, the $150 000,00 - it might seem very unethical from a Security Policeman, but if you look at it in context it was actually a drop in the ocean as far as what was going on of stealing and money and atrocities higher up in the police of more senior people.

MR DE JAGER: Sorry, what did you say about dynamite, or didn't you mention dynamite where these people are concerned?

WITNESS:   Diamonds.  Sorry, diamonds.

MR DE JAGER: Diamonds?

WITNESS:   Ja, illegal planting of diamonds.  It was about - at the time it was about the resignation of Minister Fanie Botha when this trial resulted, and then they illegally tapped the phones of Brigadier Blaauw and Mr Frans Whelpdon.  And at the time Mr Franz Whelpdon was a friend of mine, and after making sure with Brigadier Rolf van Rensburg, the Regional Security Chief at the time of Northern Transvaal, that it was not a legal operation, I then went to Franz Whelpdon and warned him.  And then from Vaal du Toit I learned that they were busy with an operation because he had a very close relationship with Brigadier Erasmus of - the chief of the gold and diamond branch, that they were busy with the operation with Craig Williamson's informants to do an illegal diamond deal with Whelpdon or, if it did not work out, "We'll plant him in the end to implicate him."

CHAIRPERSON: I'd like to bring you back to the circumstances of the present application relating to Mxenge.  You were asked by your counsel whether you were aware of any mechanism that would be available to you to check on whether people who took decisions to eliminate an 	/individual

CHAIRPERSON: individual took that decision on reliable information, and I understand you to say you were not aware of any mechanism.

WITNESS:   No, there was no mechanism.  And if I would question or start roaming around trying to get into files I would immediately be dealt with with either a transfer or some charge of treason.

CHAIRPERSON: So because of the position you occupied and the role you played you didn't think that you had to verify on whether the person you were going to eliminate, that the decision to do so was based on reliable information concerning that individual.

WITNESS:   Coming from my superior I accepted it as reliable, and if I had ever questioned it, or any other commander before or after me would have, they wouldn't have been in that position very long, they would have been transferred.  The security culture is not formally taught, you sort of grow into it, and your direction of specialisation is then determined by your attitude towards the ANC and your skills, etcetera.

CHAIRPERSON: It must have come to your knowledge at some stage during your activities that you were busy eliminating people who were being eliminated perhaps on information which was not good.  Innocent people might be eliminated.

WITNESS:   No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it never come to your knowledge, did it never concern you?

WITNESS:   It never concerned me.  I was always aware that if they had people like that that was a thorn in the flesh they had checked him for quite a while, they had a lot of information.  Although he was acting legally according to the security establishment he was a staunch supporter of the liberation movements and was involved in it.

CHAIRPERSON: /WILSON J

WILSON J: But you did know that at times people

WILSON J: innocent people who happened to be in the house were killed.

WITNESS:   During - ja, it did happen once during my time, specific with the blowing up of the wooden house of Marwick Nkosi, where his 10-year-old child was killed.  I didn't know that he was married.  The information I had was if the green Valiant is parked in front of this wooden house then he is at home, and that was the only concern.  He was at home and he had to be blown up.  I didn't know he was married.  I never asked the question whether he was married or whether he had children.

WILSON J: Joyce Dipali's house.  An unknown woman was killed.

WITNESS:   I don't know who was injured and killed in the house, but we were only told again by the Zeerust Security Branch that if the blue bakkie is parked in front of the house then Roller and Joyce Dipali is there, and it was said at the time that she was a very good shot, could outshoot the men, and we were just concerned to kill anyone that come out of that house.

WILSON J: Yes, you killed anyone, you didn't care, and you killed an unknown woman.  As you say in your application she was unknown, you don't to this day know who she is, you haven't told us.

WITNESS:   I think it was proved in the end that she was not killed.  I thought she was killed, but I think she was only injured according to documents that was eventually received from Botswana and handed in at the Harms Commission.  But it could have happened, that's right.

WILSON J: But you said you were prepared to shoot anyone.

WITNESS:   That was in that house, yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee, what was the condition of

UNKNOWN: /Mr Mxenge's

UNKNOWN: Mr Mxenge's jacket when it was handed to you by

UNKNOWN: Mr Mamasela?

WITNESS:   As I can recall it it was a sports jacket of coarse material, and it was absolutely clean.  It was very short.  Mr Mamasela's arms - you could see it was too small for him, but not dirty at all.

UNKNOWN: In your application you've motivated the action which you took as having been justified and in accordance with a political objective which was sought to be achieved, and you say that it was intended to intimidate lawyers not to act for the ANC.

WITNESS:   That was part of it, part of the eventual reason.

UNKNOWN: And you stated that the whole action was to simulate a robbery.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So that it should not have any connection with the Security Police.