Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: When you say a lot of people, what are you talking about?  Give me numbers please.

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, that's difficult to say, you know.  It will be pure speculation really.

MR VALLY: Speculate for me.

MIKE ODENDAL: Two hundred, three hundred.

MR VALLY: Is it true that it is very difficult to diagnose?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, it's very often missed by the medical practitioners, because they don't normally look for it, and a lot veterinarians suffer from this disease, because it's not diagnosed properly, so it is difficult to diagnose.

MR VALLY: Is that one of the reasons why you were keen on - your research institute was keen on producing this substance?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, it is also listed in the international lists of biohazard agents for biochemical or biological warfare is this organism, because we get to this specific reason.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question, however, is still a pointed one.  Is that the quality that your research laboratory was looking for, and was that the reason that they wanted to produce that ...(indistinct)?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: Let's go on to the last page.  Were you responsible for those two items?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, the Maletenses and the ...(indistinct), but ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Let's start off with the Maletenses first.  How much of this was produced in this particular batch?

MIKE ODENDAL: I'm afraid, Mr Chairman, I can't remember that, you have to ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Was it possibly the same amount as the previous one?

MIKE ODENDAL: This organism wasn't very popular really, because I think it was just for us to give to the people just to have it on hand, whether it was ever used or not, I can't say, but I can only assume that it must have been the same quantity.  I can't say for certain, I'm sorry.

MR VALLY: And the last item?

MIKE ODENDAL: Typhemorium, Salmonella Typhemorium is one of the Salmonellas which can also incapacitate you.

MR VALLY: Did you produce this?

MIKE ODENDAL: I produced it, yes.

MR VALLY: Does it cause typhoid?

MIKE ODENDAL: Para-typhoid.

MR VALLY: Para-typhoid.  Can you describe the symptoms, what effect it has on people?

MIKE ODENDAL: It also causes gastro enteritis.

MR VALLY: Does it cause dysentery?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, not really.

MR VALLY: Does it cause severe internal haemorrhaging?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: Did you put it into the deodorant?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, I can't understand if someone would want to infect someone with Salmonella, why you would put it in a deodorant, it wasn't me, no.

MR VALLY: How would you transmit the Salmonella in order to affect someone?

MIKE ODENDAL: It's also an oral ingestion.

MR VALLY: Only ingestion, not through the skin?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: And not through inhalation?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: Do you understand why this was done?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, it doesn't make sense to me.

MR VALLY: Have you seen this list before?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the fact that your products, that these items that you produced were in fact being given to people?  I don't mean the recipients, I don't mean the victims, I mean the middleman who'd collect it from RRL or it would be delivered to such a person?  Were you aware of that?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, because we did not see the people for whom the products were intended for.

MR VALLY: When you say "we" you're talking about yourself?

MIKE ODENDAL: And Dr Immelman - or, no - sorry, I'm talking about myself.

MR VALLY: I think you are.

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: I need to ask you, were you given certain specifications?  I need, for example, a product to introduce into a cap of the ANC, which I want to produce at in fact, for example, foodworths, were you given such specifications?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, I was just asked to compile a list and to produce a number of these organisms in the freeze-dried form so that it could be kept in stock in Dr Immelmann's fridge in his walk-in safe for - and he would distribute it for his own purposes, whatever the case may be, for the filtration experiments or for utilisation by some other people.

MR VALLY: Were you told what is the most effective toxin to be used in whatever circumstances, were you ever given instructions of that sort?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, I had to produce a potpourri of products and they made their own choices.

MR VALLY: And the potpourri was of your own volition, or were you given directions as to what should be part of the potpourri?

MIKE ODENDAL: I had a list of organisms, you know, from international literature which gave me guidelines on the organisms which would be the most pathogenic.  I went according to those instructions.

MR VALLY: So you took what the world community said were the most ...(intervention)

MIKE ODENDAL: Potent organisms that could be used in the event of biological warfare, yes.

MR VALLY: And then went and produced those.

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: What in fact did any of these items have on the environment, for example?  Let's talk about Anthrax.

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, I think Anthrax, it would be grossly irresponsible if you use Anthrax in your own country, because you will contaminate the soil and the environment for a least 70 years.

MR VALLY: So for 70 years it would be highly dangerous for any living creature to be in that area?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.  Well, the experiments that I have been performed so far indicate that, you know, this is the maximum time that, but probably it can be a bit longer, but 70 years is the experimental time which has been quoted in the literature.

MR VALLY: In fact when British experiments in ...(intervention)

MIKE ODENDAL: Green old Ireland.

MR VALLY: They had to abandon the island for many years.

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: You were aware of this?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that this was being produced for use on neighbouring territories, because you say it would have been very senseless for it to be produced for one's own country?

MIKE ODENDAL: I think the quantities that we produced of Anthrax spores were so small that you cannot really, you know, it was incomprehensible for me to realise that this could have been used in a warfare situation, because you need many spores, especially if you want to rely on the inhalation method of inactivating your enemy.  You'd have to rely on the inhalation of the spores, and therefore you'd need tons of spores, and we only produced, I think, limited quantities.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe whilst I still have you, Dr Odendal, just so I don't forget, you see, I see that all of this work was produced by you towards the end of ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Sorry, Chairperson, I've just been asked if we could just stop at this point.  It's moving towards aspects of - which involve serious proliferation and I think we just, we need to consult on our side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Well I don't know if there has been any basis that has been laid for, certainly the question that I am going to be asking.  I'm not going to be asking about - I'm going to be asking about cholera.  Can I just get an indication from the principals if I'm going to be asking the questions on cholera that have been heard, whether that is going to be traversing.  Mike seems to say, you know, I can go ahead.
 You see, Dr Odendal, most of the substance is cultures that you talk about.  You produced towards the end of 1989, during '89, on the list, at least sitting on the list, all the cholera.  I've seen that one was, you know, had a date in September in 1989.  Do you agree?

MIKE ODENDAL: I think what one should also realise is that I produced these organisms and in a freeze-dried form they can stay alive for many months, and even perhaps years,

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MIKE ODENDAL: So it could have happened that I could have produced those organisms in 1988 for instance, and they were only distributed in 1989.