Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR DE KOCK: Mr Chair, not that I can remember now.  If you could refresh my memory I might say yes or no, but later in l990 or 91 there was a situation, a situation did arise where I was not known in a certain matter and afterwards two Askaris had come back to me and asked me for their money, of which I knew nothing.   It seemed that an operation had been launched without my knowledge that, and that led apparently to the death of three activists but I did not actually apply for that except for obstructing the law.  I did ask amnesty for Brigadier, no I went to Brigadier Schoon and we paid them each R5 000.  I think they are still available if they are still alive, not that I think they would have been killed, but we don't know with the taxi drivers and so forth.

MR PRIOR: Does your affidavit deal with the relationship between Stratcom, the other intelligence agencies and so forth?  I want to turn to Temba Mabotha and his killing.  During the interrogation of Mabotha at Marble Hall, was he questioned whilst you were present in any way relating to the Mandela Football Club or Mrs Winnie Mandela's activities in Soweto?

MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, no, in no way that I can remember.  I don't recall that either, it specifically went about weapons and more weapons, what has done and what you have done wrong.  The Stompie Sepei case only came up with me later and that is also where I mentioned it, also because of short discussion during my detention but Stompie Sepei wasn't a factor in the past and I didn't know who he was.  I can perhaps just give you an idea.   Your branches worked very intensely when it came to individuals on a national level and also across borders and the volume of that information is rather big and it was therefore simply impossible to know.  Your branches usually would come up with a request and tell one that there was a problem.  There was the western border and then also down towards the Swazi direction, but that is the way we gained information.

MR PRIOR: Gruesome interrogation that extended interrogation of Mr Mabotha, there was an indication that Mr du Toit was present and it was put via your attorney, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: There were more members of Soweto there, I didn't know them however.  I visited Soweto at the most three times, one didn't go there eagerly, at least not me.  That was the first time where I saw Klopper and then I also knew Major Grobler and a man who is dead now, I don't want to mention his name now, but those are the only people I knew.  There were more people because we worked in shifts because that man was never left alone.   At three opportunities he was in a delirium and there was no rest for him.   I therefore cannot tell whether du Toit was there because I can't identify him.  Let me put it this way, and I'm not going to involve him if I'm not certain.

MR PRIOR: (indistinct) a member of the Security Branch at Soweto?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Was he later, he was transferred to Vlakplaas/

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: You indicated that part of the interrogation concerned Stompie Sepei, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Was that while we were still there at Marble Hall?  I can't remember that because my interest was the weapons, that is exactly what I was adamant about.

MR PRIOR: Where did you get that information from?  In other words, why were you questioning him about the weapon?

MR DE KOCK: That is information that Mr Grobler reported to me, namely that that man knew where the weapons were, that he was involved in more crime so that we wanted to find out what that was about.

MR PRIOR: Now you heard the evidence of Mr Potgieter today before the Commission concerning his concern for Mr Mabotha, that he was using him as a witness, he wanted to protect him as such, was concerned for his welfare and he turned to you as a last resort to solve his dilemma because he wanted to retain Mr Mabotha, be in touch with Mr Mabotha and in contact with him should the Attorney-General require him as a witness.  Did you hear that?

MR DE KOCK: I have listened to that, yes, Mr Chairman.  I am not going to agree with that.   Mabotha was not the first Section 29 detainee and who later was used as a, for State purposes evidence and witness the Department of Justice and the A.G. in particular had a system where the detainee or somebody who is being detained at a police station for one's own safety, but there should be creature comfort wherever possible.  The Attorney-General then also from the Department of Justice budget gave money to those people and if it was not enough I had no doubt that from the secret funds it will be topped up and in that regard there is one scenario, the scenario is that we have listened to how important Mabotha was, he was of cardinal importance at the Soweto Safety Branch and the head office were to be approached telephonically and to ask him whether they had kept him in safety.  It would have been followed up during, in the report.   Each safety branch had security funds which they could utilise and then later report on.  Furthermore there were safety houses and operational houses throughout the country at each branch and in isolation as well he could have been looked after and kept there.  Vlakplaas had no detaining facility, it was not a camp, people went and go as they wished and Mabotha, after I attacked him at Marble Hall, wouldn't have returned.  I can assure you of that.   I had no grip on him in any way to prevent him from leaving it again.  If one looks at the internal security police structure, there was no way that Mabotha could be travelling to his parents' home in Pietersburg and without being attacked by people within 24 hours; they have also listened in to telephone discussions, there is no way that Mabotha could have survived on his own without help of the security police.   The Askaris at Vlakplaas wouldn't have trusted him;  I couldn't, wouldn't have been able to use him for work.   If he was shot he would have been asked questions, I couldn't have loosed luck in any way but he sat and he painted pictures, but if something happened to him I would have lost my own head.   That is therefore the basic indication;  there are one or two further points but I can't recall them now.

MR PRIOR: The decision to eliminate eliminate Temba Mabotha -who made that decision?

MR DE KOCK: I wouldn't say Jan Potgieter took the decision.  I believe it came from his commanders and if he did that, he would have had very good reasons for that.  It is no strange concept, it happened at Koevoet in a selected group.  I may mention in passing that there was a standing rule that annually there was an infiltration from their special forces from Swapo down to the south and these people have been hunted down literally.  The uninitiated who have never been involved in fights and combats refer to it as the winter games.  However, the standard agreement was that any person from special forces who came down to the south would be interrogated and then afterwards they were shot.  One does not hold somebody hostage and, who has very important information who could in any way in later operations be to your detriment.   That was one of the dark sides of the guerrilla war and I would like to mention that any war that is being fought in the shadows is very rude, dirty, we must make no mistake about that.

MR PRIOR: In the circumstances that we've heard, Vlakplaas or the security network would have hunted him down as a matter of course because that he absconded from ...