Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR MARTINI: I'm not putting that to you, but you would agree, you would support the overthrow of the Government of the day?  When I say you, sorry, I mean your movement.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.  Overthrow is a strong word, that's correct.

MR MARTINI: Well, you would rebel against the Government of the day.  You'd want to ensure that that Government would be removed from power?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: So to put it in a different way, you weren't regarded as a friend - when I say you, sorry Mr ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I understand, it's not personal.

MR MARTINI: Ja, I mean the group.  You wouldn't regard the Government of the day as your friendly neighbour, so to speak?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Definitely not.

MR MARTINI: Correct.  Now, Mr Alexander, you signed this statement on the 30th of October 1990.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: That's approximately over a year, 13 or 14 months after the incident?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: Could you just explain to us how it came about that you made this statement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Essentially, at the time, Edward Gordon ...(indistinct) speeches after the bombing, as well as Gakkie and we knew that Slang was picked up in terms of Section 29 .

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Oh, so you knew that Slang, Peaches and Gakkie had been arrested under Section 29?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was in the newspapers, it was on the SABC news at the time.

MR MARTINI: And did you know that they'd made statements and stuff at the time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct and we were - you must understand, in that particular period we didn't trust the Government at all.

MR MARTINI: Sure.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Up until, to a democratic elected government came into power.

MR MARTINI: I accept that.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I would want nothing to do with the Government.

MR MARTINI: I accept that Mr Alexander.  You've already told us, you didn't regard the Government as your friendly neighbour.  so you were aware at the time that Mr van Zyl had been arrested, Gakkie Hardien had been arrested, Peaches had been arrested and I think you also said you knew that they made statements under their detentions.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: Were you given the statements?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR MARTINI: So how did you know that they made statements?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was on the news, the SABC news at the time.  It was broadly announced.  I didn't know what the content of the statements were, but we were aware that they had been picked up in terms of ELC and other deeds.

MR MARTINI: So then how did it come about that you made this statement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: If my memory serves me correctly, we were - the Youth at the time as well as Mr Huxley, had the process and that was someone I could trust, I would not go to a police office or whenever, because we were fearful at the time.

MR MARTINI: I hear you but ...

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't quite understand what you said Mr Alexander.  So you read in the papers that Gakkie, Peaches and Mr van Zyl had been picked up?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what, did somebody come to you to take a statement or what?  How did it actually happen that you made a statement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was well-known that we were in the building.  Initially after the bomb, I think the Cayco, or the Youth approached lawyers, but we were told by Mr Huxley at the time, if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who's Mr Huxley?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Joshua Huxley, he was an attorney in Athlone.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, at this writing, I see if you look at page 208, whose writing is that?  It looks the same for - you know it's in various statements here.  Is it your writing or?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It's not my writing.

CHAIRPERSON: So whose writing would that be?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I think it was one of the legal persons and/or someone from a police agency at the time, if my memory serves me correctly.  I'm not too clear, but the signatures at the bottom and on each page, are definitely mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: May I proceed Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, you haven't answered my question.  I still don't understand.  How did it come about?  why did you make this statement?  Let me rephrase this question.  Why did you make this statement 14 months later?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Things were coming out.  We were not certain, but thins were coming out in terms of the CCB, they became more public.  We knew that Gakkie was part of a sinister Government organisation, but we didn't know the detail and because at the time Peaches made a statement to Mr Huxley's office, I think the advocate or the lawyer was Mr Adams, hence we were approached at the time.

MR MARTINI: But for what purpose?

MR LAX: Sorry, who approached you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was Mr Huxley at the time.

MR LAX: Yes and who had approached him?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I think somehow Mr Adams, who was a lawyer, which was one of Mr Huxley's partners, had got in a statement from Peaches in terms of his doings within the CCB.

MR MARTINI: Yes, but sorry - sorry Mr Lax.

MR LAX: So what was Huxley preparing at the time, that he was taking statements from everybody?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well I think it was just to - so that the State was implicated within these deeds of terror and I'm not sure whether he was going to take it further, but there, at the time things became clear of State involvement within, bombings within the area etc.

MR LAX: So was he busy with an investigation, or was there a civil case, or was there a criminal investigation?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I think it would have been for a criminal/civil case at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Alexander.  So a gentlemen approaches you, members of the Kewtown movement.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: What was his name?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Mr Huxley.

MR MARTINI: Who was Mr Huxley?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He was an attorney in Athlone and we were quite familiar with him and we trusted him.

MR MARTINI: Now why were you familiar with him?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He was a lawyer in the Athlone area.

MR MARTINI: Did you chaps utilise him?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: With regard - no we didn't utilise him.

MR MARTINI: For legal services?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He was ...(intervention)

<UNKNOWN>: Sorry, sorry Mr Chairman, may I just put something right?  The attorney that Mr Alexander is referring to, is not Mr Huxley ...

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Chairperson, this is improper.

CHAIRPERSON: This is his evidence.   ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously)

CHAIRPERSON: because he's testifying as a witness now, you can't correct his evidence while he's under cross-examination.  Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: I'll try again, Mr Chairperson, I've really been trying.  Right.  He's an attorney that you trusted.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: yes.

MR MARTINI: Whom the community trusted.  He was well-known in the community.  What type of law did he practice?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He practised criminal, civil law and he was part of the democratic movement at the time.

MR MARTINI: Right he was part of the United Democratic movement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well he would have aligned himself with the UDF at the time as well.

MR MARTINI: Was he politically active?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I would say he was to an extent.

MR MARTINI: Okay and did he approach you, when I say you, because you know there were various statements, not only you, did he gather all the people that were at the ELC, that centre, and said:  "Now I want to take statements from everybody".

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We were a group that gathered, but it was him doing the organising.  However, the guy we gave the statements to was a guy from Johannesburg, I can't remember his name.

MR MARTINI: What guy from Johannesburg.