Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR KOOPEDI: He is on the right channel, Chairperson, thank you.  May we then proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.
	Mr Tshabalala, where do you reside?

MR TSHABALALA: At Emdeni.

MR KOOPEDI: Are you employed?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I am.

MR KOOPEDI: Where?

MR TSHABALALA: I work for the ANC.

MR KOOPEDI: Now is it correct that you are a co-applicant in the amnesty application for the killing of the late Sicelo Dhlomo?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now in your application form, page 2, paragraph 9(a)ii you indicate that this incident occurred in 1987, could it have been in fact in 1988?

MR TSHABALALA: This was a mistake.

MR KOOPEDI: Now at the time when this incident occurred where you a political activist?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Were you a member of any particular organisation or organisations?

MR TSHABALALA: At that time or are you referring to at the present moment?

MR KOOPEDI: At the time when this incident occurred.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I was a member of certain organisations.

MR KOOPEDI: Now the late Sicelo Dhlomo, did you know him?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I knew him.

MR KOOPEDI: How did you know him?

MR TSHABALALA: We were friends and comrades.

MR KOOPEDI: Now there's been evidence before this Honourable Committee that the two of you belonged to a cell, would that be accurate?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now to your knowledge, when did Sicelo come into this cell?  When did he become a member of this cell?

MR TSHABALALA: It could have been at the end of August or the beginning of September 1987.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you recall who the commander was and in fact - do you know who the commander was, the commandant was in this cell?

MR TSHABALALA: The commander was the commandant.

MR KOOPEDI: I didn't get that.  Who was the commander?

MR TSHABALALA: He was called Clive Makhubu.  Maybe I should explain that there were two commanders, one I can refer to as an immediate commander who is Clive Makhubu and then the other one was Pat.

MR KOOPEDI: Now Pat, would Pat be the first applicant, Mr Dube who had appeared before this Honourable Committee?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now what was your involvement in the killing of Sicelo?  Are you involved in any way with that killing?

MR TSHABALALA: There is not much that I did except that I was present when he was killed.

MR KOOPEDI: Now his killing in your mind, do you associate it with a political motive?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do.

MR KOOPEDI: In what way?

MR TSHABALALA: After he had been killed it was explained to me why he had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you say you associate it with a political motive, that is only based on what you were told by, I think it was Mr Dube?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you come before this Honourable Committee to ask for amnesty for your involvement in that killing, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct, I'm asking amnesty.

MR KOOPEDI: Other than seeking amnesty, would you like to take this opportunity to say anything for the benefit of this Committee or anyone?

MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat that question.

MR KOOPEDI: Is there anything that you wish to say, other than what you have said?

MR TSHABALALA: I must say that as I am seeking amnesty I feel bad with regards to the families of ...(indistinct) Dhlomo and their friends and relatives, that they should lose a member of their family because of an act of which I was part.  That is why I feel that I should seek amnesty.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson that will be all for now on our side, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

DR TSOTSI: Just one question.  You said you were a member of certain organisations, you didn't mention them.  What organisations were these of which you were a member?

MR TSHABALALA: I was a member of the Soweto Students Congress.  I was also a member of the ANC underground structures.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Now you described yourself as a friend and comrade of the deceased, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: For how long had you known him?

MR TSHABALALA: If I'm not mistaken I think I knew him as from 1986.

MR RICHARD: And his family describe his relationship with you as close, in fact you were the best of friends.  Do you agree with that statement?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: And in fact you were a regular visitor at the Dhlomo Njele household.

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: In fact the Dhlomo family treated you as a member of their family.

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: And - so when you say you were a member of Sosco, that's the Soweto Students Congress, one of your colleagues at that organisation was the deceased?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now what happened in May 1986?

MR TSHABALALA: A lot happened, but briefly, there was a war, some of us were attacked by a group we referred to as amazinzimo at that time.  Sicelo's home was burnt down when they were attacked by those people.  My home was also attacked and the house was burnt down, and they also killed my brother.  A lot of other people were injured on that attack.

MR RICHARD: Indeed during May that year for those reasons, the deceased left home and looked for a safe place to live.  Do you recall?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, like everybody else at that time.  He was not the only one.

MR RICHARD: And then in June that year, do you remember his detentions?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: After his detention, did he discuss it with you?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't remember quite well.

MR RICHARD: Did he tell you that he had been tortured and assaulted and in detention, that he'd been under pressure to become an informer, but he refused?

MR TSHABALALA: I think it happened because that happened to everyone, all of us were being detained at that time.

MR RICHARD: And the experience he relates wasn't unusual?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that was part of our lifestyle.

MR RICHARD: Then do you recall him being prosecuted for an attempted murder of a teacher?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: What happened in that prosecution?

MR TSHABALALA: There was a trial and they were prosecuted and they received a suspended sentence and were told to disassociate themselves with what they'd been prosecuted for.

MR RICHARD: My instructions, to speed it up, were that he was acquitted of the attempted murder charge but then sometime later he was charged with possession of a firearm,  ...(indistinct) convicted and given a five year sentence.  Were you aware of those incidents?

MR TSHABALALA: I cannot remember everything because people were arrested and detained all the time.

MR RICHARD: Very well.  Do you know what the DPS is, Detainees Parents Support Committee?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I do, it's the Detainees Parents Support Committee.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever go to their offices?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: For what?

MR TSHABALALA: As the name suggests, as a person who had been detained a number of times I would go there in that capacity.

MR RICHARD: And were you aware that the late Sicelo Dhlomo worked there?

MR TSHABALALA: I know that he used to do volunteer work there.

MR RICHARD: Did you get involved in their work?

MR TSHABALALA: No.

MR RICHARD: Then were you aware of the deceased's activities in making a television documentary called: "Children under Apartheid"?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: While he was making it did he discuss his activities with you?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't know whether he did, but it was something that we knew about.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you're not placing too much value on the word "discuss".  I don't think counsel means that you had formal discussions about them, what he means is that did you as friends talk about these things?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, he did talk about it.