Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, I only have one question in this regard.  Did you make full disclosure to the Goldstone Commission about ANC or MK atrocities of which we have heard, some of which we have heard about at this application hearing? And the answer could only be yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Khaba, obviously you did not, isn't it?  You didn't tell the Goldstone Commission what the ANC people were doing?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You've got your answer.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: ...[inaudible] of Obed Nhlabathi, I just want to make sure that I'm putting to you all the facts pertaining to the allegations and I - in line with my instructions and I turn to page 55 of the bundle of documents.
	I'm putting it to you, line 2, that the Black Cats or the group of which Mr Chris - of which Mr Obed Nhlabathi was part that evening at the disco were not harassing people at the disco in Ermelo?  What's your answer?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is not so.

MR HATTINGH: Furthermore, it was not the grouping of Mr Obed Nhlabathi who started shooting, it was in fact you who started shooting.

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is not so.

MR HATTINGH: Then if we turn to page 56, line 4, where you say
"As a member of the STU's I consider that the orders which I received from the MK Commander"
 that paragraph:
"To eliminate the leaders of the Black Cats gang was a legitimate and reasonable order having experienced and seen for myself the atrocities"
I just put it to you that this is a fabrication that you committed this crime of killing Obed because of revenge for the killing of your mother.

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Could the speaker be slower, the interpreters are interpreting, not reading.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you killed Obed as part of the liberation struggle and in the fight of the Black Cats - it's being put to you that that is false and what in fact happened was a revenge attack because Obed killed your mother or you thought that Obed killed your mother?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I've already explained that - I told you that if it was a revenge killing, I would have killed each and every member of the Black Cats and even the person who was convicted for that, I would probably kill him if he comes out if it was a revenge killing and I have no desire to do that.

MR HATTINGH: I further wish to put to you that witnesses will testify if allowed to by this Committee to give a version of what occurred at the disco that night of the killing of Obed, namely that there were no problems and that you in fact came to the disco and said that you were looking for Obed and you commenced all the problems there.

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It's just like I have stated before, I have no knowledge of your allegation and I don't know where you got it from.

CHAIRPERSON: Any more questions Mr - have you any more questions?

MR HATTINGH: Lastly I would like and that is with specific instructions of families of victims - Mrs Thandi Miriam Mtetwa instructed me to put to you that on the 4th September 1992 and perhaps I could just advise the Committee that this is a specific instruction from a victim's mother and I'm just putting something I'm not going to it much further but on that date, the 4th September 1992 at Thembisa Complex, Wesselton, you together with a group of people killed her son George ...[intervention]

MR BLACK: I must object to this.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this got to with Obed?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, no it doesn't, it's got nothing to do with Obed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then I'm not going to allow it.

MR HATTINGH: I may just, Mr Chairman, just put on record that I did receive instructions, further instructions in this regard from other people as well.  If - I just want to make sure that the people who gave me instructions are aware of the fact that I wanted to make the allegations and request an answer from the applicant but that the Committee is not allowing me to do these.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you tell them why also?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chair ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Because the applicant - it's relevant questions or only to be relevant to the application and unless it's involved with Obed's attempted murder or murder it's irrelevant and you do put in that risk when you talk about other crimes.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I'm not proceeding with any further cross-examination, this will be the end of it but I would appreciate it and I really - I think it would go a long way in assisting me if you, as Chairman, perhaps in the Zulu language would explain the reasons why we are not allowed to talk about other incidents or make other allegations.  I can go back to the people and explain it to them but they may very well feel that this should have been heard by this Committee and if it comes from the Chairman's own mouth, I think it would go a long way in assisting me if you could ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The person or deceased which you refer to or was supposed to have referred to, is that person one of the deceased in the whole application?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, no he is not one of the deceased in this application, in this hearing but however, I think the perception in the community is that this will be the only Black Cat Amnesty Hearing and that there won't be further opportunity to make allegations with regard to a particular applicant if they still have something on their hearts and I'm going to take it any further, I'm not - I have no intention of cross-examining on those things.  It's a matter of I think - it's the opportunity we have to explain to people what the situation is.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if I am going to do that I want to think about it and if I'm going to explain I'm going to have to do it at the end of the hearing not now.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would appreciate that, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not promising, I'm going to have to think about that.  It has a lot of implications.

MR HATTINGH: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: My pleasure, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, as you know, I represent a number of individual persons whose names have been mentioned in the evidence of Mr Khaba.  Now I'm in the invidious position that if I wanted to really test these allegations, I would need to go through much of the motions which we had gone through in the Goldstone Commission which took up a period of almost a year and would involve numerous witnesses.  After consultation with my clients and instructing attorneys we believe that because of the fact that these allegations merely form part of the peripheral background to illustrate the general atmosphere that was in existence in this community during that period but I'm not going to burden this Committee with excessive cross-examination and I wish the Committee to understand that I'm not abandoning the defence of these people which they raised at the Goldstone Commission.  I will merely put it to this witness today that those allegations are devoid of the truth and I'm not going to take it any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp, you can take our word, in our deliberations we will consider it in that light.