Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-06

HASSAN MALL: Mr Chairman, if I may just digress and just to add some light on this.  My instructions from my clients are that, from one of my clients, Mr Dunn, who was employed by the Electricity Department, was that him, Col Welman and Sgt van der Merwe were in the ambulance waiting to be taken away and there was this gentleman who came up to the ambulance driver and asked who the first person was and this gentleman was informed by the ambulance driver that that was a policeman, it was Col Welman.  He then asked who the next gentleman was and he informed him that that was another policeman, that was Sgt van der Merwe, and when he asked who the third gentleman was he said well he was a person who worked for the Electricity Department, and Mr Webster went up to him and actually apologised to him in the ambulance at the time.

MR MCBRIDE: No, that's highly unlikely, highly unlikely.  The method of operation which we were trained about and it was drummed into us "You must retreat and move and get out the area".

HASSAN MALL: Mr Dunn recalls, he remembers this gentleman clearly because when he appeared at Webster's trial, he recognised Webster in the dock as the person that had come to the ambulance and said sorry to him.

MR MCBRIDE: Well I cannot comment on that, I think it would be highly unlikely.  I would imagine it would have been a journalist asking those questions.

HASSAN MALL: I see.  In any of these bomb blasts, especially the ones like Chamberlain Road, were any journalists or newspaper people, that you might have had contact with, were they ever informed that things like this would happen?

MR MCBRIDE: No, Sir.  Never.

HASSAN MALL: You were aware that there were journalists that appeared on the scene shortly after the Chamberlain Road bomb blast.

MR MCBRIDE: If I can remember correctly, there was a photograph of one of the victims with their clothes alight.

HASSAN MALL: I have that photograph, which I've been requested by my client, Mr van der Merwe, to show you.  It's a photograph that appeared on the front page of the City Press on the 12th of January.  I don't know if you've seen this photograph.  May I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: 12th of January of which year is that?

HASSAN MALL: 12th of January 1986.  It was ...(indistinct) days after the incident.  The photograph, the caption under it reads
"Police Sergeant Rudolph van der Merwe, his clothes ablaze, staggers from the Wentworth Electricity substation, after the second limpet mine exploded on Thursday night."
There's a photograph of Mr van der Merwe alight.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, Mr Mall, if I could just ask Mr McBride.
	This Chamberlain Road Electrical substation, is it in a built up area, Mr McBride, or is it on a patch of veld.  Could you just describe the are in which the substation, well the area as it was at that time.  Is it residential, business, open ground, whatever?

MR MCBRIDE: It's on the border between an industrial area and a residential area.  The closest factory to it is about 50m away, probably even less.  There's one across, I think it was - I don't know what it's called now, it used to be old motor assemblies.  The nearest house is about 100m away.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mall?

HASSAN MALL: Mr McBride, did you ever enquire personally about the people that had been injured in the blast?

MR MCBRIDE: No, never.

HASSAN MALL: You never enquired?

MR MCBRIDE: Never.

HASSAN MALL: Even though two of the people that were injured were civilians, employees of the Durban City Council?

MR MCBRIDE: I don't want to be argumentative.  I didn't enquire, but I don't know if they were all civilians and I don't know if someone who works in the City Council there are civilians, because they had their own security unit, which was I think involved at one stage in the operation against the comrades who retreated from doing the operation on a mobile, the Engen refinery.  They were involved also in killing the comrades.  So I can't say if they were civilians because they worked for the City Council.  They were armed, some of them.

HASSAN MALL: We've heard from you and your legal representative this morning that yesterday you met with the, I think it's the Buthelezi family, where you apologised on a personal level directly to the family.  Mr van der Merwe and Mr Zimmerman are here today, Mr Dunn unfortunately is not here, he's away in Johannesburg on business, but would you adopt the same attitude to my two clients today, would you be in a position on a personal level to apologise to them?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, I have no problem, absolutely, with that.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Chairman, I'm not too sure if this would be an appropriate time.  Both my clients have indicated that they would be willing to meet Mr McBride on a personal level.

CHAIRPERSON: Well certainly we as a Committee, would encourage that, we find it a very gratifying and satisfactory situation when those sort of meetings take place.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Could I call Mr van der Merwe and Mr Zimmerman, could they please come up?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to do that now or do you want that they can meet ...(intervention)

HASSAN MALL: I don't have any further questions for Mr McBride ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... meet at the tea break, do you think.

HASSAN MALL: ... or possibly during the break then.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if they could meet during the tea break, if that would satisfy them.

HASSAN MALL: Fine.  Sorry, I don't have any further questions for Mr McBride.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALL

CHAIRPERSON: Just on this photograph, Mr McBride, the photo shows, it's not very distinct, but it shows Sgt van der Merwe with his clothes ablaze, apparently staggering out of the substation.  You would agree that photograph must have been taken, the photographer must have been on the scene or passing it just by coincident, or would there be any reason - that's why I ask the question, was there restaurants around there or places where people would be at that time of night, with their camera, to catch a photo like that, or would it just be pure coincidence?

MR MCBRIDE: No, Sir, I don't want to speculate, there's no restaurant there, no areas immediately close to it that people are attracted to.  There is a - on Saturday nights there's a - to the improvement project, it was like a youth project, it's about 400m to 500m away from there.  They have discos sometimes, but - what I can say is that some journalists were linked up with police and would be taken out when situations occur.  Some journalists had scanners where they would scan illegally the police radio signals to be first to get a scoop.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Richard, you may put questions now.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair.
	Mr McBride, let's start with one of the easier questions so that I can get this bundle away from me.  In his judgment at the end of your trial, Lord Justice Sherrer at page 1906, made a finding concerning Mr Lecordier.  Comment there made was -
"Generally Lecordier is unsatisfactory about his association with this affair.  He is a far from benign character.  Even on his own account he wanted a gun to rob a bank.  He was in the terrorism game for money."
Now was a correct finding or not?

MR MCBRIDE: I think you're asking a number of questions at once, could you just ask me one at a time.

MR RICHARD: Well, I've read the finding, the statement, if you analyse it, it starts off
"Generally Lecordier is unsatisfactory about his association with this affair."
That's the statement.
"He is far from a benign character.  Even on his own account he wanted to rob a bank."
Did he want a gun to rob a bank?

MR MCBRIDE: Not that I'm aware of.

MR RICHARD: As I said, I leave the question and will return to that bundle later.  Now ...(intervention)