Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but you had been the leader of itfor months hadn't you?  Why did they suddenly come looking foryou this morning, on this particular morning?

UNKNOWN: Which morning are you referring to?

JUDGE WILSON: The morning on which you killed this man,the 11th February.

UNKNOWN: They knew I was the leader of the SDUs sothat made them suspicion that I was some sort of a disturber tothis organisation which is the 3 million gang.

JUDGE WILSON: For how long had you been the leader ofthe SDUs?

UNKNOWN: From their origin, from the day when theywere started.

JUDGE WILSON: So why were they looking for you
on this morning of the 11th February?  Was there any reason whythe police should come looking for you?

UNKNOWN: The reason for them to look for me, I wasthe leader of the SDUs and these units were disturbing the 3 milliongang to carry forward their aims.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Tulu, were the SDU members constantlyharassed by the police?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And these harassment took also the form ofthem being constantly being investigated by the police?

UNKNOWN: Could you repeat the question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: The harassment that the police had on theSDU members, did it also take the form of you being constantlybeing under surveillance by the police?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you scared to sleep at your home? Yesterday you gave evidence that you actually spent most of yourtime at your girlfriend's place.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why were you scared to sleep at your home?

UNKNOWN: Because the 3 million gang would attack meand the police would be able to arrest me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you more scared of the 3 million gangthan you were scared of being harassed by the police?

UNKNOWN: From both sides it was the same thing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you actually saw both parties, that isthe police and the 3 million gang, as actually acting againstanything that the SDU members stood for and the ANC Youth League?

MR TULU: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did the police know who your girlfriendwas?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And they knew you were staying with her?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: But they knew you visited her, she is yourgirlfriend?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Thulu, I just wanted to clear something. You made reference to a state prosecutor yesterday.  Preciselywhat did you say was his or her role with regard to the 3 milliongang?

UNKNOWN: She was the person who would protect themfrom going to gaol.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry.  Can you just repeat your answer? I had asked you what the exact role was of the prosecutor?

UNKNOWN: She made it a point that their cases wouldbe handled by her and then she would make it a point that theydon't go to gaol.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is that all you can say about her?

UNKNOWN: That's all.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Because yesterday somebody told us thatat some stage she accommodated members of the 3 million gang intown.  Do you know anything about that or you don't?

UNKNOWN: I know it from rumours, but I don't have anyevidence regarding that case.

JUDGE MGOEPE: We are talking about in the past whenpeople used to be seen in terms of being black and white in thiscountry.  That was the position during that time, am I right?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Members of the 3 million gang, were theyblack people?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: We were told that they killed a numberof people, these members of the 3 million gang, a figure of about102 was mentioned to us.  Is that the figure that you were alsogiven?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were these victims black?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were arrests made in respect of some ofthese murders or not?

UNKNOWN: Arrests were made, people were arrested, butit wasn't of any use because they were released, they were neversent to gaol to show that they've done a very bad thing.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were there any - or let me put it to youthis way.  A witness told us yesterday that members of the communityhere complained about lack of activity by the police, they wrotea letter to a Minister and only thereafter a certain captain wassent here.  Do you know about that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Such arrests as were made, were they madebefore that captain came here or after?

UNKNOWN: The arrests were made before he was brought
here.  They were arrested and they were never sentenced.  Theycame back to the township.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You say the arrests were made.  Sorry,were they made after or before, I am sorry?

UNKNOWN: The police arrested them before and then theybrought them back to the community.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And after his arrival were any arrestsmade?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were the people not brought back to thecommunity there at that stage?

UNKNOWN: No.  They came after a long time and thenthose who were involved in the murder cases were sentenced andthey stayed in gaol.

JUDGE MGOEPE: That was only after the captain arrived.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: To your knowledge, did members of the 3million gang kill any white person?

UNKNOWN: I don't have any knowledge of that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You are a resident of Maokeng, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's true.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And Kroonstad is not very far from Maokeng.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is not far.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Do you know of during that time any whitepeople who were killed by criminals around Kroonstad, not theirnames, but just the incidents?

UNKNOWN: I don't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You know of an incident, don't you duringwhich certain white people were killed in Maokeng by a group ofyoung people, don't you know about that?  Or were you alreadyin gaol?

UNKNOWN: I was already in gaol when one of the whitemen - we never regarded him as a white person.  He was stayingwith us here.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Who?

UNKNOWN: He was called Thabo.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Oh, you refer to an incident  in which onewhite man was killed.

UNKNOWN: That's the one I am referring to, but whenyou asked me at first it must have slipped my mind because wenever regarded his colour, or we didn't see him as a white person.

JUDGE MGOEPE: That is why I said to you that we are goingback to history when we used to see colours.

UNKNOWN: Ekskuus?

JUDGE MGOEPE: That is why when I asked you about thecolour of the people, I told you that we are going back to historywhen we used to see colours.  I actually wanted you to see colours.

UNKNOWN: It is true that was used, but in our organisationwe never regarded colour.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was an arrest made in connection with thatparticular murder?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Soon after the murder or did it take a longtime to have an arrest made in respect of that particular murder?

UNKNOWN: That's the question I cannot answer.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.  Is there a police station inMaokeng itself?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How many police stations in Maokeng?

UNKNOWN: Two of them, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were they there during the time when about102 people or so were killed?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yesterday I asked the other person togive an example of the names of the ANC leaders who were alsokilled during that time and he was not able to remember a name. Are you able to give us an example, the name of one or two ANCleaders, or you regarded as ANC leaders who were amongst the peoplekilled by the 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: No, no leader died.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Are you able to remember the name of anyvictim?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just give me an example of one?

UNKNOWN: Mduwisile Mbelwane.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: You told us that round about twenty five 3 million gang members was killed, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: When were they killed?  Could you name,say a period, between months or which year round about?  Not theexact dates, but round about?

UNKNOWN: After we've started the SDUs and even if Iwas still in gaol they have been killed.