Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MR DIALE: Chairman, the vice-chairman, secretary, vice-secretary, treasurer, others were additional members of the action committee.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In the killing of Mr Mokgatle, were members of the action committee?

MR DIALE: Yes, that's correct, Madam.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Diale, do I understand you that the deceased said "I know you, I know you guys who are doing these things" to you?

MR DIALE: That's what he said.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he say this when he was in the Kombi?

MR DIALE: That's during the time we were busy assaulting him, that was outside the Kombi.

JUDGE WILSON: After you put him into the Kombi or after he had been in the Kombi?  You took him away from a house and put him into the Kombi.  You then took him out of the Kombi at a later stage when the Kombi stopped.  Is that correct?

MR DIALE: We took him into the Kombi and we drove off.  And then between Luga and Leeukraal we stopped the Kombi.  We took him out of the Kombi and that is where we started
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assaulting him.

JUDGE WILSON: He said he recognised you, he knew you.

MR DIALE: Yes, that's where he identified us.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

MR CURRIN: Yes, I have one or two questions, thank you.  Could you explain to the Committee why you were afraid of being identified as a person who took the deceased hostage?

MR DIALE: Because at that time the police, the BOP police used to torture people.  We were afraid we would be tortured and actually killed.

MR CURRIN: I have no further questions.  Sorry, I do have one other question.  That is in regard to Musi Mgopani, who was the vice chairperson of the action committee.  Was he ever arrested and identified as a person who participated in this act?

MR DIALE: No, he was never arrested.

MR CURRIN: And where is he today?

MR DIALE: He is deceased, he passed away.

MR CURRIN: Is it known how he died?

MR DIALE: I don't have evidence, all I hear as I was in prison, I heard that he died in a car accident.  That's all I heard during my stay in prison.

MR CURRIN: Is there anything in relation to disclosure of the events on that fateful day which you feel you haven't yet told us about?  It is very important that you make full disclosures.

MR DIALE: Can you repeat the question?

MR CURRIN: As far in your own mind that you have told us everything that you could tell us about this particular
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event, because it is important that you make full disclosure.  If you do not make full disclosure then you may not be successful with your application.

MR DIALE: According to me all that I have said I think it is all that is to be said in relation to what I did on that day.

MR CURRIN: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

HASSAN MALL: How many of you that took part in the assault on the deceased, were tried?

MR DIALE: We were only two.

HASSAN MALL: Have you any idea why only two of you were tried?

MR DIALE: No, I don't have any knowledge.  I don't know why only two appeared before the court.

JUDGE WILSON: According to the record that we have been supplied with there were four before the Court;  Mokhali, Diale, Masilo and Makhala.

MR DIALE: Eight of us were arrested - there were ones who went to the Supreme Court.  I didn't understand the question well.  We started the case being eight. In the course of the case we were only three remaining.  These three are the ones who eventually went to the Supreme Court.

JUDGE WILSON: It is correct, I think that only two of you were sentenced to a term of imprisonment. The third accused got a totally suspended sentence.

HASSAN MALL: Has that been interpreted to him?

MR DIALE: Yes, that's correct, only two of us were charged and one was suspended.

MR CURRIN: I do have another question.  I do have another question if I may put it to the witness?
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MR CURRIN: You said that 10 people were present when the attack took place.  You told us that Muse Bagopani was never arrested.  You told us also that eight people were arrested. There must be another person who was not arrested. And it is important that the Committee be given the name of that other person.  If you require a short adjournment to discuss that with us, then we may ask for that, alternatively if you are able to answer that question, I think you should answer that.

MR DIALE: I am here before the Amnesty Committee and I am here asking for amnesty.  The tenth person is Mr Bobo Manali.

MR CURRIN: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

HASSAN MALL: Yes, Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman for the indulgence.  Mr Diale, what do you hope to achieve by this application?

MR DIALE: Amnesty, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... of any effect to you emotionally, in other words?

MR DIALE: I don't understand the question?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... will it change your person, will it remove the bad past?

MR DIALE: Yes, I think the amnesty will do just that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You want to be forgiven.  By whom do you want to be forgiven?

MR DIALE: I want the deceased's family to forgive me about what I did.  (Applause).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And if the family does forgive you, do you envisage or foresee some form of reconciliation between
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yourself and them?

MR DIALE: Yes, we are one tribe.  There will be reconciliation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you align or associate yourself with the spirit of reconciliation?

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Diale, assuming that you are granted amnesty, which would mean or could mean that you are released back into the community, how do you think that kind of amnesty and release, how do you think it would impact on the tribe?  Do you think it would contribute towards a process of reconcilation?  What impact do you think it will make on the tribe?

MR DIALE: I think reconciliation will be strengthened because what we did, even if it is not a pleasant matter, it will bring about a situation whereby all the people with whom we were not in agreement in the past, we will get together.  We will build the tribe with a new spirit. (Applause).

HASSAN MALL: Very well, thank you very much.

MR DIALE: Thank you.  (Applause).

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, and members of the Committee, there is an aspect of the test around which we would like to give the Committee clarity as to what we hope and what we intend to prove, and why I would just like to put that on the record, is because some of the questions that were asked, I believe were based on an assumption which is not our case.  So with your permission, I would just like to say to you that after having consulted extensively with our clients and members of the tribal council and others, and action committee, we have a very clear picture of what we need or
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what we are able to prove. I would just like to tell you what we are not able or are not going to be able to prove and what we are not setting out to do. I think that this will give some assistance to the members of the Committee with regards to the questions that are asked as far as approval is concerned, mandate, et cetera.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Currin, I would prefer that you call your witnesses and get done with all the witnesses that have to be called, and you will have ample opportunity to address us on these matters.

MR CURRIN: As it pleases the Committee.
We would like to now call the second applicant, Chris Mokgatle.
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MR CURRIN CALLS

KINANCHIMA CHRISTOFFEL MOKGATLE: (Duly sworn, states).

MR CURRIN: Mr Mokgatle, could you please give us your full names?

MR MOKGATLE: Kinanchima Christoffel Mokgatle.

MR CURRIN: You are one of the two applicants in this application for amnesty?

MR MOKGATLE: It is like that.