Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JIMMY MBANE: I saw him shooting, I told you before.

MR BOOYENS: Where was he standing at that stage, when he fired the shot into the vehicle?

JIMMY MBANE: I heard a gunshot inside the kombi.  He pulled this person out of the kombi.  I am not sure whether he was actually shooting at this person while he was lying flat, but he shot this person and I saw him shooting this person because I was just 7 to 10 metres away from him.

MR BOOYENS: The question is where was Bellingan when you fired the shot into the kombi.

JUDGE MILLER: Are you saying in relation to the kombi, Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, your Lordship.  I am just trying to find out was Bellingan inside the kombi when he fired the shot.  Or was he standing outside the kombi shooting into the kombi, that's what I am trying to find out from the witness.  Answer the question please.

JIMMY MBANE: I told you that Bellingan, there was a person in the kombi, I heard a gunshot and he dragged this person out of the kombi and the person fell down.  I didn't see any blood.  When I was closer to him, I saw him shooting this person outside the kombi.  He stood there and I heard a gunshot and he dragged this person out of the car.  It's when this person fell down and that's when I saw Bellingan shooting.  I am not sure whether you are satisfied by that.

MR BOOYENS: No I am not.  Because you told us that he fired inside the kombi, in fact repeated that statement I don't know how many times.
	Now I want to know how do you know he fired inside the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't say that.  I said I heard a gunshot inside the kombi.  From there I saw Bellingan dragging a person out of the kombi and this person fell and he shot this person.  Yes, I heard a gunfire inside the kombi, but I didn't see him shooting the person.  I only saw him pulling this person out of the car and the person fell and he shot that person.  I am not sure if you are satisfied.

MR BOOYENS: How do you know if this shot was fired inside the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: As I am telling you Sir, I was just 7 to 10 metres from the car.  I  know a gunshot, I know how it sounds.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but why couldn't it have been right next to the kombi?  On the outside.

JIMMY MBANE: I heard the gunshot inside the kombi, not outside the kombi.

MR BOOYENS: Are you seriously suggesting that you could hear whether the gun was being fired inside the kombi, or whether it was being fired next to the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: I was closer to the kombi and I could hear the gunshot inside the kombi and this person was dragged out of the kombi and I saw when he was shot at close range.  I don't know what is it that you want me to say.

MR BOOYENS: What I want to know is how you can say that the shot was fired inside the kombi.  Did it sound differently, or why do you say it.  Why could the shot not have been fired right next to the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: The gunshot was right inside the kombi.  I don't know how to explain this.  Because I was just next to this kombi and I saw him dragging the person, I didn't even know who was being shot inside the kombi.

MR BOOYENS: So there must have been a bullet hole at least in the kombi.  Unless he was firing blanks?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't have any knowledge about that.

MR BOOYENS: Well you are adamant that he was shooting inside the kombi.  Then one would expect at least a bullet hole inside the kombi.  Not so?

JIMMY MBANE: It depends.  There could be a bullet, but if the bullet shot a person, there wouldn't be any bullet in the kombi.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, then there would be blood in the kombi.  Not so?  Do you know where Bellingan was when he fired this shot, or don't you?

JIMMY MBANE: I know.

MR BOOYENS: Where was he?

JIMMY MBANE: He was next to the passenger seat.

MR BOOYENS: On your side of the kombi.	Were you also on that side of the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: I was on the other side.  I was-when I tried to run away, I saw this guy who was trying to get out of the kombi.  Then I took cover.

MR BOOYENS: So he was standing next to the kombi.  In which direction did he point the gun when he fired it into the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: I heard the gunshot.  I only saw him clearly while he was shooting this gentleman.  Outside the kombi.  But inside, I only heard a gunshot.  The outside that's where I could see, outside the kombi, when he was shooting the gentleman.

MR BOOYENS: Now, where...you say you heard two shots.  In what position was the man when he fired these to shots that you claim you saw.

JIMMY MBANE: He was shooting him in the head.

MR BOOYENS: In what position was the man when Bellingan shot him, that's the question?  Was he standing, was he kneeling, was he lying down.  If he was lying down, how was he lying down. That's what I want to know.

JIMMY MBANE: He was laying on his side.

MR BOOYENS: Did he move at all, before he was shot?

JIMMY MBANE: You won't move if you are being shot in the head, because the bullet will kill you.

MR BOOYENS: Listen to my questions please and don't try to be facetious.
	The question was did he move at all before he was shot?

JIMMY MBANE: He tried to move before....

MR BOOYENS: What did he do?  What movements did he make?

JIMMY MBANE: As he was laying on his side, you could see that this person was  still alive and moving, although at the same time he was trying to cover - I am not sure whether he was trying to surrender or what, when he was being shot, he just moved once and after that he became still.

MR BOOYENS: Was Bellingan holding him down when he fired the shots?

JIMMY MBANE: No, he was not holding him down.  I can't remember seeing him doing that.

MR BOOYENS: So he was standing upright, shooting at the man lying on his side.  Is that what you are saying?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: By then, had Rasta been shot?

JIMMY MBANE: When I was running towards this particular house, Rasta was just a distance from me, just a tar road in between.  He fell and stood up, fell and stood up again and I went on with my way.  He was approaching a fence, there was a fence somewhere.  I am not sure if he was shooting.

MR BOOYENS: On which side of the kombi was Rasta.  Passengers or drivers when you saw him falling?

JIMMY MBANE: Rasta was running towards a fence and the kombi blocked the road.
	Rasta was running towards a fence and the kombi blocked the road.

MR BOOYENS: The question is on which side of the kombi was the fence.  On the drivers side or passenger side.   Was Rasta running.

JIMMY MBANE: I am saying to you that Rasta was running, approaching the fence.  He moved from the passengers seat and then he approached the fence.  I was on the other side of the road.  He was on the left hand side and I was on the right-hand side.

MR BOOYENS: So in other words, Rasta was running towards the fence which was on the passenger side of the vehicle.  Is that what you are trying to say?   Because he was on the left hand side.  All I am trying - if the kombi is stationary, there is the passengers side, there is the drivers side, now the fence, was it on the driver's side that he was running on the passengers side?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know how to explain this.  Maybe you want me to take you there?

MR BOOYENS: I don't want to go there. Once was enough.

JIMMY MBANE: It's going to be difficult to explain this to you.

MR BOOYENS: If the Commission will just bear with me, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you look at photograph B4 please.
	Does that show the scene of the shooting?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it's very clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you see the kombi on that photograph?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the vehicle with its nose on the corner of the intersection.  The white vehicle.

JIMMY MBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, can you show us where Rasta was running from that vehicle.

JIMMY MBANE: I cannot make out much on this photo, but it seems that he was going in this direction.