Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

MS COLLETT: Maybe I can be of some assistance Mr Chairman.
	Is your understanding of this statement or when you said it was blank did you mean that there was no handwriting on the actual amnesty form, is that what  you're trying to say?

MR LAX: With all due respect Mrs Collett, that's an incredibly leading question in the light of the Judge's questions.  Blank means blank, blank doesn't mean with writing and typing and stuff all over it.  You put the question to him, you're a lawyer, you should know what you mean when you use the word blank.

MS COLLETT: Let me try and clarify it in a different fashion.
	Had you seen the contents of this application form before?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Blankness is that Mr Mbandazayo did not write what he was supposed to have written on the form.

ADV SANDI: What did he write instead Mr Mbambo?  Did he write anything at all?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, there are small things he wrote.

ADV SANDI: Can you point them out?  Point them out please.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: If I'm given an opportunity to read it, yes.

ADV SANDI: Okay let's start with page 8, did he write anything there?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Page 8 he wrote my name, surname, my address and where I stay, my date of birth and my place of birth, that I'm a member of the PAC and the liberation movement I was a member of, that is APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wrote down what appears there, this has been typed onto the form, that was put onto the form?  Was that put on before or after you had signed the form that you appear to have done at page 13?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It was filled after I had signed.

MS GCABASHE: What did you expect to see there when you got your form back, per your discussion with Mr Mbandazayo?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I expected firstly, before he sends it to the TRC he first go to prison to visit us so that we could see them as he had promised because he could send things on our behalf with us not having seen them.
	Secondly we expected that he would explain the truth as to who had sent or who was our commander.

MS GCABASHE: Because you had discussed these matters with him?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, we had discussed these matters with him and for that matter he knew them because he's very close to the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at page 15 there's another application of yours, do you see it?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Who prepared this one?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It was being prepared or it was prepared by Mrs Sally Collett.

ADV SANDI: When you say that, you mean that is her own handwriting?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I cannot remember who was writing there but I remember this statement.

MR LAX: Just one thing puzzles me, there are two different handwritings on here.  Who filled out the rest?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I have no other attorney who was representing me after having had an altecation with the PAC ones.

MR LAX: That's not the point.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I'm trying to say I do not know who Mrs Collett may have used or whether it was myself who wrote here but I do not think it was my own handwriting.

MR LAX: You see there are a lot of blanks on this form, were those blanks filled out before you signed it or after you signed it?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: The person who was asking me to sign something that was not written on is one, it was Mr Mbandazayo and I think we have passed the one of Mr Mbandazayo.

MR LAX: No, no, you're not answering my question.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I'm trying to say Sir, this question I think in my foolishness you must have asked during the discussion about that other form of Mr Mbandazayo.

MR LAX: I'm referring to this form, the one that you say Mrs Collett filled out for you.  In particular, page 4 is blank completely.  Do you see that?  You don't tell us what your justification was for doing that thing.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: The reason for this, in the mission I was involved in I was not directly involved.  What was happening is that I kept those Africans who had done that that's why I did not have anything to write on page 4.

MR LAX: Why don't you say: "I have nothing to say because these people only stayed in my house"?  That would have been the right answer for that spot.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I felt that I must apply for that case of John Knox Bokwe despite my being absent because it involves me because those people who are involved there stayed at my house before they went and after they came back from that attack.

MS GCABASHE: This is the one where you were making full disclosure even though you were not directly involved in this particular incident?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I do not say everything there.  I just explained that there a kombit that carried teachers was hit and those people stayed in my house before they did that and after they did that they came back to my house.

MR LAX: So if I understand you correctly, you made application for that incident because you wanted to come to the Commission and be open about things that had happened, that you had been indirectly involved in, is that right?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No, I did the application for amnesty and realised that these two, that is my involvement about harbouring those people who were involved in that attack I must also include not that I came to the Commission in order to talk about things I was not involved in.
	There is one thing I was not involved in, the one of that minibus of John Knox Bokwe.

MR LAX: You see again I'm slightly confused by your statement because you told us in your evidence which we've now interrupted, that Jimmy Jones brought other people to stay with you while they went on other operations.  You haven't said a word about any of those operations.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That's true Sir.  I said that Jimmy Jones did bring people in the past but I did not explain anything about those operations, I have a reason Sir why I did not explain about those operations that we did by those people that were initially brought to me before these ones came.

MR LAX: Tell us the reason.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: The reason that those who first came to me about whom I did not make an application form is that I do not know what they did or what they did during their staying at my place.  That is the reason why anything relating to them I did not include in my application for amnesty because I did not know what they did during their stay at my place.

MR LAX: You see the fact of the matter is that you could still be charged for harbouring them at that time and you should have been adivsed to apply for those.
	I put to you really that the reason you applied for this one is that your co-applicant applied for this one and he wanted to just make sure that you got amnesty for it because he mentions you and the fact that they stayed with you.  That's really the reason why you applied for this one.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No Sir, that is not so because he too, Dumisani Ncamazana, that case he was not charged for.  It's me who said: "Sir, Broer, this case even after our release from prison may be investigated and we we'll be found out.  It's better that we confess to the TRC despite the police not knowing anything about who did that"?

MR LAX: The fact of the matter is that both of you applied for that and that's why you've referred to it.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I do not know Sir, as to whether you cannot understand me properly.  As I'm saying, Dumisani Ncamazana, the one who was involved in that case and the shooting of that kombi, it's me who advised him that: "This case Sir, maybe even if we are released by the TRC while the police may be investigating that case and discover who were involved, it's better that you include this case with your request to the Commission".  That's how we made these applications.