Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

ADV SANDI: Was Mr Mthimkhulu taken to court and charged for firing at the guards of Mr Buthelezi?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't remember the circumstances, but the case - well people were brought to trial, I don't know whether he testified or whatever happened.  I can't remember the details at this stage.

ADV SANDI: Did any conviction follow from that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't remember sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely if you were in, I have great difficulty with this, you were considering - three senior officers, the elimination of these men, but you say you don't even know if he had a previous conviction for firing at someone?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I am saying this now 15 years later.

MR PHOSA: Okay, let's try and go passed this quickly now.  To do so, I shall mention a scenario which I think you, the Security Policemen, may get to know of, a former Security Policeman.
	Now, some years back, in Natal, Mr Mxanda, the late Mr Mxanda was publicly accused in the newspapers by Mr Buthelezi and his people of being responsible for the unrest in black education in the black townships, African townships.  He and others were mentioned.  Now just to complete it because if don't you will say so, the reason they were so accused was they could afford to do this, because their children were attending at the multiracial schools, now do you remember the occasion, it was in the news?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I cannot remember it Your Honour, it is possible that I might have read it, but I can't remember this.

MR PHOSA: Now, what I just want to tell you now is this, and I would imagine perhaps you have some information about Mr Mxanda, but again I will just put it, Mr Mxanda's children never went to multiracial schools, do you know that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I don't know about that sir.

MR PHOSA: Just then to sum it up on that basis.  Do you accept that information that reaches you as the Police, from informers, is not always accurate, it is sometimes completely false or distorted?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, we received a lot of false information Your Honour, but I am referring to information confirmed by other persons.

MR PHOSA: Yes, actually when I said informers, I include even these other persons who are informers.  By informers as informers, there was always a measure of unreliability?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, sir.

MR PHOSA: So, even on the question whether or not Mr Mthimkhulu and or Mr Madaka, were chasing children out of school, this is not something that is proved, is it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, it was not proven sir.

MR PHOSA: Do you per chance have copies of statements made by Mr Mthimkhulu whilst in detention?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Are you referring to a statement made by him whilst in detention or afterwards?

MR PHOSA: Whether he made them in or outside of detention then, statements that he made to the Security Police whilst being interrogated?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I was able to see this kind of statement, but that was at the time.

MR PHOSA: Are those the statements where he was denying involvement?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct sir.

MR PHOSA: On this aspect, I may (indistinct) even of the family, but let me just say this to you.  Do you recall that Mr Mthimkhulu as up to 1979 was a member of the BPC, in other words they were (indistinct) in the black consciousness movement?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I have no knowledge of that Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: Don't you remember that he was charged here in Port Elizabeth and I represented him, charged with wearing the colours of the Black Consciousness Organisation?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I just wish to place on record Your Honour, with respect, I don't know about this.  In 1979 I was stationed in Uitenhage, I came to Port Elizabeth at the beginning of 1980.

MR PHOSA: Okay.  And I just want to put this to you to say that Mr Mthimkhulu in 1981 whilst he was a member of COSAS, at that stage he could not have had such a high profile as you suggest?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: He definitely had it, sir.

MR PHOSA: You know Mr Bobelo, didn't you, Bobelo?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I knew Mr Bobelo.

MR PHOSA: Now, was he part of the team that interrogated Mr Mthimkhulu whilst he was in detention?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I can't remember it specifically, but if he says that he was, then it is probably so.

MR PHOSA: Do you remember anyone who interrogated him?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No.  I did see a statement which I myself had filed in an investigation regarding alleged assaults, and if I remember correctly there the names were mentioned of Mr Roelofse, Mr Nieuwoudt, persons Strydom I think inter alia, they were mentioned.

MR PHOSA: Did you not ascertain at any stage from Mr Nieuwoudt, whether he did indeed interrogate him in that period?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: He had indeed interrogated him during that period.  Not the whole time, but upon occasions.

MR PHOSA: I take it you know nothing about poisoning, you say so.  The poison?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: And have you ever done an investigation about it, the alleged poison?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I didn't.

MR PHOSA: Whose task was it to investigate that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The Detectives, if I have to think back, investigated it.

MR PHOSA: Are you saying they did?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Do you know who they are?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't know what the rank was.  I don't know what his rank was, I think it was a Major or a Colonel or a Captain Sauer, if I remember correctly, that is what I seem to remember.

MR PHOSA: Now, did he question you about that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, I filed a statement so he must have asked me in this regard.

MR PHOSA: Now, were you being asked because you were in any responsible position?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I believe so and also because by that time I had also interrogated him.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, during the course of this interrogation, were you shown an affidavit made by Mr Mthimkhulu?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I didn't read it as a whole, but it was said to me that he would have alleged that I have assaulted him, which I deny.

MR PHOSA: But of course do you say you did not interrogate him or did you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I did.

MR PHOSA: Oh.  Did you as members of the Security Police, interrogate him altogether, all of you simultaneously or did you take turns?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No I believe that if you refer to the interrogation at the Sanlam Building, I accept or I assume that we did not interrogate him together, but in turns.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there turns interrogating him?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: I forget that there are interrogations at other places too.  Where else was he interrogated?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think at Algoa Park and Jeffreys Bay, the other places.

MR PHOSA: Who in all interrogated him?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well Your Honour, I am not sure, but I think there are statements that will give the names, but I can't remember.  At this stage I can only say that other people were also detained at that stage and we were divided to interrogate all these other people as well.

MR PHOSA: I can understand you saying, I am not saying it is correct, but you are saying I did not do any poisoning.  You would not know if anyone else did not poison him?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever give him medicine for his swollen feet and pains that he was suffering?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I never gave him any medication and I am honest when I am telling you that I also didn't have any knowledge of something like this.