Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

MR NKGWEDI: I do not believe this is all I have to say.  There are others that I want to say, however, some of them I cannot say.  All this mess was done on us by these Boers.  I want us to take me on this matter.  In 1652 on the 6th of April when you arrived here, did you come here with your wives?  On the 6th of April when you arrived in Azania did you have wives of your own, please answer me in honesty.  I will pick the one who will respond, Judge Wilson, you are supposed to speak the truth.

JUDGE WILSON: I am not here to answer questions from you, if you have no further representations to make to the Committee as regards your application for amnesty, you can go back to your seat.  Has he any further, do you wish to ask him any questions?

MS THABET: No questions.

MR NKGWEDI: Pardon me.  Judge Wilson, do you mean that I have no right to ask you a question as you have the right to ask me questions and I am responding to them to your satisfaction so that you are, you have been oppressing the Africans more than 40 years ago, you've been abusing us as Africans and assaulting us.  Today I am asking you a question and you say you are not prepared to answer my question.  We have suffered at your hands as I wanted to tell Mr Mandela that he must disband this TRC.  When I leave this table Mandela must disband the TRC because it is still handled by the thugs of White people, those who maimed Africans, they maimed our warriors, the  Masheshe's, Dingaan, that was not the end of the world.  This earth belongs to the Africans, it doesn't matter if you bring a pile of books, the land belongs to the Africans.  I want to ask another question - do thugs ever arrest each other.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr Nkgwedi, if you have nothing more to add regarding your submission today, please say so and you must give the Members and evidence leader a chance to ask you questions on your evidence.  Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Nkgwedi, did you kill Mr Fourie because he was a White thug?

MR NKGWEDI: Well, you said so, I have never said so.  It is you who stated that statement, but you (indistinct) in the question.  I have never said such a thing.

ADV DE JAGER: No, you didn't say it, that is why I am asking you whether that was the reason for killing him?

MR NKGWEDI: What we fought for as Africans from the PAC or APLA we fought for our land that it revert to its rightful owners so that the Africans must live peacefully in their land.  Our forefathers died as slaves, I don't even have a bankbook, but your child he has got a luxurious house, he's got a big flashy house, I have nothing.  Most of the Africans have shacks as their dwellings.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I can understand why the PAC fought a battle, they've given evidence and they've given us a reason for why they in fact acted as they did act and why they were involved in a war.  I am only asking you why did you kill Mr Fourie, what was your motive in killing Mr Fourie?

MR NKGWEDI: Fourie, it does not mean that I was against Mr Fourie, or I had something against Mr Fourie, I just wanted the land to revert to its rightful owners, the Africans.  Let us now cling to Mr Fourie's case.  Let us compare the number of Africans killed by the Boers and compare the number of Boers killed by the Africans.  We can compare, make a simple comparison.  The number of Africans killed by Boers is very small, however a lot of Africans had been killed by the Boers.  I want to ask this question and this is the second time that I am asking this question.  Has it ever happened that thugs arrest each other?  Judge Wilson tell me here, here in Azania in Africa, at prisons I know very well that you've got a rule in making legislation here in South Africa at all this prisons were there are no murders committed by White thugs and you find that Africans are jailed and killed in the prisons, where you have graves at this prison yard because I believe some of them had been thrown in some of the boilers at this prisons and it is stated that they escaped from prison.  This was done because they spoke for their rights.  The thing what I am saying is the right and correct thing, that prisoners throughout South African have been killed previously.

JUDGE WILSON: No, I do not think that that happens, with any regularity.  There have undoubtedly been incidents of violence in prisons, but if there were I would expect you to have told your lawyer, he could have brought it to the attention of people to investigate, not for you to have tried to make a public performance out of such tragic incidents.  If you have information that prisoners were killed, were put into a boiler, I have no doubt whatsoever that the Advocate appearing for you, will take the utmost steps to ensure that it is properly investigated.  And I think that you should, if you have any interest in that, any real bona fide interest in those people, you would do that, rather than put on the performance you are doing now.

MR NKGWEDI: Now you are making conclusions that I am making a public performance here.  I am not playing here, you are thinking that Nkgwedi is playing.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you l looked at your colleagues and seen what they are doing?

MR NKGWEDI: I am not a colleague, I am not referring here to the colleagues, I am Nkgwedi.  When you talk to me you must know that I am Nkgwedi.  Never refer to my colleagues, talk to me personally, I am an APLA soldier, you must never forget that.

ADV MTHEMBU: Sorry Mr Nkgwedi, I think if you have points to make, make  your points and just remember that you must leave enough time for your colleagues, they may also be wanting to come and say a lot of things.  So make your points, be alive to the fact that you should leave time to your colleagues, they may also want to say something.  Concentrate on making your points, because if you ask the questions, you may find that, you may get answers which you don't like.  I thought you would just concentrate on making and summarising your points so that you leave time for other people.  By the way, are you the person who told us last time that you attended school up to sub, standard B?

MR NKGWEDI: I am not here to play, I am here to state the truth even if you investigate through out Azania, you will be told that I ended up at sub, standard B.  This is not a joke, I didn't continue further with my schooling, even though you refused to answer some of my questions.  The same goes for Judge Wilson.  Judge Wilson, I want Grootvlei, Leeukop prison, Kroonstad prison to get the information and contact us here at Grootvlei as Africans, we are fighting for the prisoners' rights and assaults that we do not want at our prisons.  We do not want White wardens who are thugs and you have Africans who are wardens that due to apartheid they have been stereotyped so much that they became thugs, hence they were stripped of their ranks they were Sergeants.  I would request to hand this document so that you pass it on to Judge Wilson.  They must take actions, come to us at Grootvlei so that we expose of all the acts that we dislike at Grootvlei prison.    I will pass this list to my legal representative, who will pass it over to you.  You Boers have ill-treated us for a long time, even at the present moment we are still suffering at your hands.

ADV MTHEMBU: What are the other prisons that you mentioned?  Grootvlei and which prison?  You mentioned Grootvlei?