Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, the second applicant is Mr Hlobo.  He is also Sotho speaking.  May he take an oath please.

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: (sworn states)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How old are you at this moment?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: 32 years.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Hlobo you heard the evidence given by your co-applicant Mr Matela?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you confirm the evidence given by Mr Matela?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I confirm his evidence Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Inasfar as it relates to the incident.

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: Yes I confirm his evidence in totality Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you a member of the ANC at that particular time?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I was a member of the ANC and I was also a marshal inside the movement.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What were your functions as the marshal of the ANC at that time?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: My work includes when we have meetings we should always let people be in order, and that's the work of the marshals that if there's one comrade who has passed away we collect monies for condolences.  That includes part of the work of the marshals.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were marshals put in particular ranks?  In other BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
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words could we say there was a senior marshal, a junior marshal or a commanding marshal?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: Marshals are put in different positions, we have commanders respectively in terms of seniority and in terms of their duties.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now where do you place yourself in terms of rank as a marshal?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I was always a committee member and I was also helping the committee in executing their duties, and I was just a general marshal working under general instructions.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you have any powers as a marshal to give instructions or orders or any directive to members of the ANC there?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I had more power to give instructions in my work as a marshal, particularly our leader who was Manong and Mr Mayekiso, they would come to me and give me some instructions to carry on.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you saying that you would receive instructions from the ANC leadership, amongst others being Mr Manong and Mr Mayekiso?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: That's true Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And what would you then do with the instructions given to you?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: (No interpretation given)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On the date of the incident, September 1990, when the four White persons were killed, you were present at the scene.

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I was present Sir, in that incident.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you tell this Committee your actual participation in this incident?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: To explain to the Committee about my role, I
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took an iron rod and hit those people whilst other people were assaulting them I was taking part also.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And when did you arrive on the scene?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: The car arrived whilst I was still there, that is when we heard the car parking next to the shelter house.  We went out of that house and then we found people already gathered and they were surrounding a car near that house. Then I paved my way to go right in the circle next to the car, then it was a Pulsar make, inside were two people at the back and then in front was a man and a woman and I asked them what do you want in the location?   Then the people who were at the back told me that they were looking shebeens and they were looking for women.  Then I asked them again as whether they have guns, then they told me that they don't have guns.  Then I gave instructions that the comrades should kill those people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you repeat the instruction you gave?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: Whilst I was still at the car I asked these people ...(intervention)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, no, the instruction you gave you say (repeats line in Sotho)

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I gave instructions that the comrades should kill those people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In what capacity then were you giving this instruction to the comrades?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I was giving instructions while I was still with those people who were killed.  I was on the scene at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let me put it this way.  Why did you give an instruction or an order that they be killed?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I was able to detect that the situation in which BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
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we were in at that time was tense, the situation was tense, because in Kothlanong township in Odendaalsrus Inkatha Freedom Party was coming to attack the comrades, then I took it that these people are coming to attack the comrades, because they came to Mashengoville and they are coming to attack therefore I decided that we should attack them first before they attacked us because they came at night, they came around eight o'clock at night.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now when did you know that your area was going to be attacked?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: It was on a Monday because some of them - there were men, three men who came to me who were members of the Russian gang that on Sunday was a meeting at Mr Sithole's house together with the Russians and the Inkatha members and they told me on Monday around three o'clock.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let us go to - let us concentrate on the time before the incident, before the killings, before the killings did you have any information that the area was going to be attacked?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: Yes I did have information that our area is going to be attacked.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And how did you know, how did you receive that information?  In other words who told you and where was this told?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I got this information on Wednesday at seven o'clock, I was at home, one of the comrades came to my house who is Mabanjo, then he said to me Comrade Thami people have been attacked in the squatter camps, I was still eating at the time, then I left my food there then we went outside.  When we arrived outside I asked him as whether he has a whistle then he said yes he had it, and then he pulled it
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out, I took his whistle then I blew it, because we were the comrades.  The way we were calling each was using the whistles, and those who were near came and we gathered.  Then we discussed among ourselves that we should go to the squatter camp.  Inside the squatter camps we saw people gathered around armed with dangerous weapons and the police were there.  That's where we took a decision then.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman.  Mr Matela testified about a meeting which was addressed by Mr Manong before the incident, do you know about that?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I know fully about that meeting that Mr Manong was briefing us about informations before, days before this incident.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you present at that meeting addressed by Mr Manong?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I was present Sir at that meeting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was said at that meeting by Mr Manong to the members?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: Mr Manong explained that because there are people coming to attack us and who are Inkatha members we should protect ourselves in whatever way possible to protect ourselves.  That is the address he gave at the meeting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now in this, pertaining to this incident, what did you as the marshal who gave an instruction that the people be killed, what did you expect to gain or to benefit?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I am asking that you repeat the question Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What did you expect to gain or to benefit or to achieve from the killings of the four people?