Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR PATEL: You searched this house looking for a particular person and you failed to find four others lying on the floor.  Is that what you say?  You go into this house.  Your specific purpose is to find Bhobholina.  Now you search in the house, am I correct?  You don't find four others in the house.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I found one person, and even now I confirm, if I remember well, I'm sure of what I'm talking about.  I found one person.  If there was someone who was ordered to lie down it means it's me who ordered them to lie them down, and I didn't.  The one lady giving evidence said at the time when you're walking around said, "We saw you through the window, you were walking inside the house".  She never said, "We were lying down when we saw you".  Then she saw me through the window as I was moving around inside the house.  That's what I remember the evidence as was given in court.

MR PATEL: You say if you had seen these people you would have shot them?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Let's say maybe the person or the person we were looking for, the target, was inside the house.

MR PATEL: Mr Hlongwane, did you or did you not say, not three (3) minutes ago, that if you had seen these people you would have shot them?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I said that I will say because of the pressure from me from behind I might have.  I was there to get Bhobholina's mother, but if I did find them I might have.  Maybe I should describe you the family.  Noah said to me that the mother is an ANC member and his child or son caused the death of the Black Cat leader, and secondly, at Bhobholina's place, that's where most ANC members stay.  That is the information that was supplied to me by the people in Ermelo.  So I will say it was a meeting place for the people, or the ANC people.

MR PATEL: So whoever you found there you may have killed?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, that's what I said and that's what I'm saying now.  It's because of the situation as Noah was angry with my work and he said I should go and shoot the mother so that he can come to the funeral.

MR PATEL: Is it also not correct that Mrs Shongwe, the deceased, gave you or one of your accomplices or one of the two men clad in balaclavas an amount of one thousand five hundred rand (R1 500,00) with a plea not to kill her?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: How much?

MR PATEL: One thousand five hundred rand (R1 500,00).

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, I am Israel Hlongwane and I was known as Sadam in this area.  I never received any such money and if there's any person who have seen me receiving that money, where was that person standing or where was the person?  I deny that there was such offer of money and I never received the money.

MR PATEL: Yes.  The petrol bomb, you say Jomo had a petrol bomb with him, but he just left it on the ground when you left the scene?  Why would he do a thing like that?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I said so.  Sir, I don't know how to explain Jomo to you.  When we were going there he was about to run.  He was standing there holding it and he was shaking.  And this is a litre because I couldn't find a 500ml and I put some petrol in it.  I give it to Jomo and he was standing by the window, because the police could have taken it as an exhibit, but Jomo left it on the ground.

MR PATEL: What was China's ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't catch that, Mr Patel.  If you could just repeat it.

MR PATEL: What was China's occupation?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: When he arrived in Ermelo Noah took him to stay with me.  He was staying with me.  His work was to accompany me when I go around doing the work.  So I'll say he was not working.  He was not working when I arrived.  Maybe he was working before I arrived.

MR PATEL: Approximately how old was he?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: You mean the time he was with me?

MR PATEL: Yes.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I was born in 1968.  I would say he's probably somewhere around 1970, if I'm not making a mistake, but he's younger than me.  Not that there is not much difference, but he's younger.

MR PATEL: He must have been about twenty one/twenty two (21/22) at the time?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: In your talks with him, had you discussed at what standard he had left school and when?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I will be lying, the only relationship between me and him it was with relation to the work that we're supposed to do.  We never discussed personal matters. Even today I don't even know his real name or surname.  I only knew about him from the purpose and the parade.  Madlanduna is my commander and if he tells you you meet so-and-so then that's all.  And that's the kind of life that we led.  I didn't know him.  Maybe whatever names he gave they were his real name, but myself, I was given code names.

MR PATEL: All right.  The Thembisa area here in Ermelo, is it well lit?  Are there street lights in every street or not?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: If I remember well, it's not like the street lights, the ones in Durban, they were the Apollo lights.  If I remember well, I think I'm correct if I say they were Apollo lights here and there.  I don't know exactly their exact name.

CHAIRPERSON: Are those Apollo lights those lights on a very tall stand?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct, Chairperson.

MR PATEL: This incident on the attack on the Thembisa scholars, Chine hid away in the drain.  Why?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: May you please repeat your question.  I didn't understand it.

MR PATEL: China, in this killing of these Thembisa boys from the school, China hid away in the drain.  That's how I read it.  China hid in the drain.  Why did he hide away in the drain?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I don't know.  Maybe it's me who can't remember this very well.  I would say we were about a distance from each other.  He was in front and he saw the people and he passed them and he give me a sign and I shot them.  I can't say he was hiding.  I don't remember, I don't say that.

MR PATEL: He was walking ahead of you, approximate distance as you and I, that's approximately eight (8) paces, am I correct?  And you were both walking in the same direction.  He walks eight (8) paces ahead of you.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes.  Yes.

MR PATEL: And then he walks past these people and then he goes and hides away in the drain.  Just explain this to me again.  I'm lost here.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I'm also lost, because I don't know anything about the hiding in a drain.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, if I could just read to you from paragraph fifty seven (57) of your affidavit.
"China identified them as being the troublemakers from the school.  China hid in the drain and I approached two boys, took out my 9mm short ..."
Etcetera.

INTERPRETER: Paragraph?

CHAIRPERSON: Fifty seven (57).  Five seven (57).  You see China hid in the drain.  Further down.  It's one, two, three, fourth last line.  Four lines from the bottom of paragraph fifty seven (57).

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I can see that.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what Mr Patel is asking you about.  He said he's a bit lost and he's saying why did China hide in the drain.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I can see that.  He didn't hide, he stand on the drain.  It was not necessary, because even if they did see him and they report the matter, he wasn't going to be arrested.  He didn't hide, but he stand there.

MR PATEL: Before I continue.  This portion of your affidavit that we've been through this morning, did you go through it with your legal representative before you started to give evidence this morning?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And did you not see all the mistakes that we're finding as we're going along?