Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson in accordance with the requirement at the last hearing that we produce statements of the people that we intended to lead as witnesses, we have done so and we have furnished our Learned Friends with copies of those statements and also the Committee with copies of those statements.  For ease of leading the evidence, could we mark the statements that we've handed in as the next exhibit number?  I believe it will be Exhibit D.

CHAIRPERSON: As one bundle?

MR BERGER: As one bundle.  We've numbered it through from one through to fifteen and then each witness will come and identify his or her own statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay let's just get the ones and the twos in order, so we all understand.  Malaza's one will be D1, am I right?

MR BERGER: It will be D 1 and D 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you're going by pages.

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and we have 15 pages.

MR BERGER: 15 pages, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume, I trust that the sequence of pages, you've checked, has been consistent in everybody's bundle.

MR BERGER: I have, but just for safety sake ...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR BERGER: Malaza will be D 1 to D 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR BERGER: Mokoena is D 3 to D 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Correct.

MR BERGER: Anderson is D 6 to D 7.

CHAIRPERSON: Correct.

MR BERGER: Machoabane, D 8 to D 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR BERGER: Abrahams is D 11 to D 13.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Abrahams or Abranhamse?

MR BERGER: It's Abrahams.

CHAIRPERSON: Without the E, or with it?

MR BERGER: Without the E, yes.  Oh, I'm told that it's Abrahamse.  Mr Abrahamse will come and clear that up.

CHAIRPERSON: His affidavit, or his statement rather, goes to ...

MR BERGER: D 11 to D 13 yes and then Mbethe is D 14 to D 15.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  I just want to get on record that these are statements not affidavits.

MR BERGER: That is so, yes.  Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, the first witness I wish to call is Ms Baleka Mbethe.  That will be D 14 and 15.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mbethe what language would you prefer to use?

MS MBETHE: I could use either English or Zulu?

CHAIRPERSON: The choice is yours, whichever you're comfortable with.

MS MBETHE: Okay.  English.

BALEKA MBETHE: (sworn states)

MR BERGER: Ms Mbethe I want you to have a look at Exhibit D, pages 14 and 15 which I've placed before you.  Is it correct that that is your statement?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Have you read through the statement?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that the contents of the statement are true and correct?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You are the Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly, is that correct?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And in your statement you deal with a particular traumatic period when you were in Gaberone, Botswana, is that correct?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now, you've spoken about a number of people in your statement.  I'm not going to ask you to repeat it because you have already confirmed it under oath, what I do want to ask you is at this time, is it correct that you were living with your children in Gaberone?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR BERGER: How old were your children?

MS MBETHE: At the time the youngest of the children were 6 and 5, a boy and a girl.

MR BERGER: A boy and a girl and they were living with you in Gaberone?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR BERGER: During the afternoons, where usually would your children be found?

MS MBETHE: Many times they would go over to Uriel's place because Uriel just used to have a thing with children.  Other times they would be playing around of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us that address?  Can you remember that address?

MS MBETHE: I can't remember the address, but it's the house which was also hit on the day of the raids.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one that was near the University?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetser.

MR COETSER: I have no questions for the witness.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Ms Mbethe, I gather from paragraph 2 that while you were in Botswana you were a member of the ANC doing political work for the organisation, is that correct?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: What did that entail?

MS MBETHE: Specifically first of all I did political work, as I say in that paragraph, in the ANC Women's section, which of course is an organisation that is part of the ANC structures, so it meant mobilising the women, explaining the issues that were affecting women inside the country, South Africa, mobilising Botswana women, mobilising the people of Botswana to understand why they needed to support us, so that was specific to the issue of women.  But secondly, as part and parcel of ANC structures in Botswana, we also had to explain the policies of the ANC, explain the struggle and show that the people of Botswana as a whole, understood why the international community had to support the struggle of the people of South Africa.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And that struggle was a struggle, inter alia, by the ANC against the then South African Government, that is correct, isn't it?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And that struggle of the ANC, you're probably aware, was based on so-called four pillars of the struggle, do you recall that?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And Botswana, if I may put it that way, was an important springboard for action against the previous government, previous national government in the furtherance of the aims of the struggle of the ANC.  Would you agree with that statement?

MS MBETHE: Botswana was an important host to the ANC structures who were involved in different activities in furtherance of this struggle.

MR VISSER: Yes and it had become so since 1977 when Mr Marius Schoon and Mrs Jeanette Schoon started establishing structures and roots to and from Botswana, are you aware of that history?

MS MBETHE: I am aware of the fact that Comrades Marius and Jeanette lived in Botswana.  I was not myself in Botswana at that time, but I know that they were there before I was there.

MR VISSER: I see.  Well were you perhaps informed that Mr Marius Schoon established very sophisticated underground structures and networks, infiltration networks in Botswana?

MS MBETHE: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR VISSER: And that this, that these underground structures have the ...(no sound - tape faulty) became more ... (indistinct) as time went by.  Do you agree with that?

MS MBETHE: ....(no sound) I was not informed.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know that that happened, if at all?

MS MBETHE: No.  I know that those Comrades lived in Botswana in the years that he mentioned, but I don't know anything about what activities they were involved in.

MR VISSER: Now in 1985, would it be fair to say that there were ANC structures which were sophisticated in Botswana?

MS MBETHE: I don't know what you mean by sophisticated, but certainly there were ANC structures who were very disciplined.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And would you agree that there were infiltration routes to and from Botswana for people leaving the Republic of South Africa and returning to the Republic of South Africa?

MS MBETHE: In terms of what I was involved in Botswana, I interacted with people who came back and forth from Botswana into South Africa, through normal routes that everybody uses between the two countries.

MR VISSER: Were you ...(no sound) aware that there were people also leaving the Republic?

CHAIRPERSON: I think from the Panel's point of view, we can accept that Botswana was one of the neighbouring states that facilitated ANC activities.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  In our activities on behalf of the ANC, did you meet with other members of the ANC and particularly MK members?