Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

AZHAR CACHALIA: The paragraph three starts with saying that the argument about the posters was on Friday the 11th.  Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I agree with that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And it goes on to say
"...on Saturday the 12th the ANC started attacking.  We expected that as usual the conflict would be resolved by discussion.  The ANC did not want to resolve in this manner but chose war."
Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I agree with that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then it goes on to say
"...I apply for amnesty because I am a victim in the sense that there was a war between the IFP and the ANC.  I was arrested but none of the ANC."
Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I requested amnesty but I never said no one ANC member was arrested.

ADV SIGODI: He says he can't remember that.  He can't remember saying that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes Chairperson.  The final paragraph of your this affidavit of 12th of December says
"...many people were crippled and killed by the ANC but none of the ANC's were arrested."
Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: I do not remember that quite well.

CHAIRPERSON: But is it correct or not?

ELIAS MBATHA: I wouldn't say it is the truth because I cannot remember that.  I cannot remember writing it like that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Were ANC members responsible for the killing of many people?  Is it correct or not?  That's what the Chairperson has asked you and I'm just repeating the question.

ELIAS MBATHA: Are you saying they're responsible?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, Mr Mbatha in this affidavit, which you have signed, this one on page 84, you say
"...many people were crippled and killed by the ANC but none of the ANC were arrested."
That's what you are, you have said in this affidavit, which you say that you signed on the 12th of December.  Now the first question was, did you say that, and your answer to that is "...I can't remember."  Now the next question is, in fact were many people in Zevenfontein killed by the ANC, and were ANC members not arrested?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, I don't remember that.

MR LAX: You see the problem here is not whether you remember it or not, is that you don't remember saying it, or that you don't remember that happened at all, or can you categorically say it never happened?

ELIAS MBATHA: I don't remember saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: But did it actually happen?  Sorry.  Did it happen in Zevenfontein that the ANC people killed many people.  Forget about the statement.  Did it happen?  Do you know whether ANC inhabitants at Zevenfontein killed other people?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, it did not kill anyone.

MR LAX: Just one last thing on this statement before you go on Mr Cachalia, if you would allow me.  I see from the top of this statement that it comes from a firm of lawyers.  Did lawyers come to you and take a statement from you, at Zonderwater in December 1996?

ELIAS MBATHA: In 1997.

MR LAX: This statement was taken in December 1996, you signed it on the 12th of December 1996.  If you look at the bottom there's a date stamp on it, it has the date there.

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: And this was faxed to the Commission on the 13th of December 1996.  Now when your lawyers came, they came, did they, with an interpreter?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, there was an interpreter.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Mbatha, what I'm saying to you is essentially what you have told us in both those affidavits, the one of 1997 and the one of 1996, is that you were defending yourself and you have given a number of other facts.  I just want to deal with the one fact her quickly with you.  There was in fact, I am saying it is common cause, that there was a dispute about posters on Friday the 11th.  You've admitted that already and there was a resolution of that between Mr Sithole and members of the ANC.  Do you agree with that?

ELIAS MBATHA: I cannot dispute that.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Cachalia did I hear you correctly?  Are you saying that it is common cause?

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is so.

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat it for my benefit.  I was distracted.  I must apologise.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I had put it to him that it was, I put it to the applicant.  I had put to the applicant that it was common cause that there was a dispute about the posters on the 11th of February that the Friday and that I put it that it was settled between Mr Sithole and ANC officials on the Friday.  That matter was sorted out.  And I think the answer was, sorry I don't know want to presume the answer.

MR LAX: What is your answer to that Mr Mbatha.

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I agree with the fact that Mr Sithole resolved the dispute with certain ANC leaders on that Friday.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then it would be incorrect to say, then it is incorrect to say that the ANC did not want to resolve in this manner but chose war, on that same paragraph of paragraph 3 of page 84.  What I'm saying Mr Mbatha just to assist you is that it is common cause that there was a dispute that it was resolved the common cause between Mr Sithole and the victims who are present today and the witnesses that that issue was resolved on Friday.   Now if that was resolved why do you go ahead and say that the ANC did not want to resolve the manner but chose war, and you've already admitted that that is correct what you have said there.

ELIAS MBATHA: I said that because it had been discussed, or this was resolved between Mr Sithole and the ANC.  We were still waiting for Mr Sithole, that is why I said that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: The question that I'm leading to is there was, there is no basis for you to say that the ANC chose war.  In fact the issues were resolved you are suggesting that they chose war.

MR LAX: Maybe I could put it a better way because the way you're putting it is confusing, Mr Cachalia, I'm sorry.  What Mr Cachalia is asking you, and I'll put it in a slightly different way, he's saying, if there was no dispute left because the matter had been resolved by Mr Sithole and the ANC leaders, what was there to then fight about?  And to chose war instead?  Do you understand?

ELIAS MBATHA: I get you quite well.  That also confused me.

CHAIRPERSON: So why do you think that there was a war on the Saturday, if the question about the posters had been resolved the day before?

ELIAS MBATHA: I say the ANC people came to attack us, this is why I say that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you sir.  Mr Mbatha, I am saying that in both these applications the most central aspect of your amnesty application was not dealt with in that you did not admit to being in possession of an unlicensed firearm, you did not indicate that you had ammunition for that, you did not indicate that you were responsible for the murder of anybody, in the two applications that we have before us.  Am I, is that correct, do you agree with that?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Then I am saying that you are today giving a version because you now realise that in order to get amnesty you need to give a version where you make some kind of admissions, but I am saying that you have not made full disclosure then nor have you made full disclosure today.

ELIAS MBATHA: Today I'm telling the truth and I'm divulging.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You had what was called an Astra pistol.  Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: There was, the argument in the High Court about whether the ANC shot at you or not was discussed at length.  Is that right?

ELIAS MBATHA: Please may you repeat just that part.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I am saying that in the High Court when the case was carrying on whether the ANC had shot at members of the IFP was a matter that was canvassed extensively.

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes.