Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

MR WAGNER: Can you just help me with the pronunciation of your name, is it Kgoele.  Is that the correct, I heard Mr Prior referring to it as Kgoele, is that that correct pronunciation?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No it is not.

MR WAGNER: Can you please help me?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Kgoele.

MR WAGNER: Okay Mr Kgoele forgive me then if I err in this respect at times.  Can I ask you are you also at present a member of the National Defence Force?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No.

MR WAGNER: What position do you hold at present?

JOSEPH KGOELE: It is difficult for me to divulge the position I hold but I'm working under the Inter-corruption Unit of Johannesburg (indistinct).

MR WAGNER: And I see on page 11 of your application you refer to William Mabele as Sergeant Mabele, is he a member of the Defence Force or the police or don't you know?

JOSEPH KGOELE: NO he's a member of the South African National Defence Force.

MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele and once again my questions will be concerning the period May 1987, at the time of this incident so if I don't repeat myself every time, please keep in mind that I'm referring to that period, May 1987, okay?  Were you at this time also regarded as a member of what is called the Transvaal Machinery?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I would say yes but like Mr Shoke indicated, we had different structures within Umkhonto weSizwe and each with a different mission, so I would say yes I was a member but falling directly under General Nyanda.

MR WAGNER: Now we have heard or I have heard in a previous hearing of an MK unit called Special Operations.  Were you and your unit working parallel to what is called Special Operations?

JOSEPH KGOELE: It will be difficult for me again to explain because like I say we are not supposed to know about the others' operations so my operations was mine, what the others did so I wouldn't know, I wouldn't say I was part of any one.

MR WAGNER: Why I'm asking this question is that I heard testimony in a previous matter that this unit called Special Operations, they were given all the big, if I may call it the spectacular, the controversial operations to conduct and it is against that that I would like to ask you do you know why you and your unit were tasked for this very big operation?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I should think that General Nyanda might have realised my potential so independently he might have taken that decision to assign me that task.

MR WAGNER: Can I take it from your answer that you were an experienced explosive operator and that therefore you could be entrusted with this very big and I would say difficult operation?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I wouldn't say experienced, I would say he realised my potential.  There were various cadres who would have performed better than I, but on this particular case they might have been involved on other missions, so this mission here perhaps General Kabusa saw something in me and chose me to do it.

MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele can you tell this Committee what your experience was at the time concerning explosives and explosions?

JOSEPH KGOELE: My experience varied because one was not trained on one particular aspect.  My training or our training as MK cadres was broad.  We were trained politically, trained in the usage of arms, rifles and explosives, what we termed to as military engineering so it was general training, no that one was an expert in anything.

MR WAGNER: Yes but what I would like to know, this training you received was it practical, did you have practical experience of working with explosives, of detonating explosives and so forth.  Was that part of your experience at the time?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No.

MR WAGNER: Can I take it then that this was the first time in your life that you actually detonated an explosive device?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No.

MR WAGNER: Well what's the answer then?

JOSEPH KGOELE: It was not the first time, I had detonated some explosives somewhere but not of this magnitude.

MR WAGNER: Maybe I can ask you this, is that part of some other amnesty applications of yours and that I should therefore not question you in this regard?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I think so.

MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele the final instruction to go to Johannesburg and cause this explosion in the way it happened, was that instruction from General Nyanda only?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes because as it was indicated earlier, there is only one main command so I received instructions from General Nyanda.  Mr Shoke might have helped facilitate with the explosives, what we termed ordinance or logistics at the time and maybe made an input during the, but it is the brainchild of General Nyanda.

MR WAGNER: Now Mr Kgoele you also testified that you  as the operative, if I may call it that, you had a discretion to some extent as to how the operation should be carried out.  Do you remember that?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I don't remember saying that but the briefings that we had we interacted and General Nyanda never sort of imposed himself.  We discussed go out there, survey the area come back and tell me, so we discussed and I felt it was opportunity which was right to do so but an order is an order.

MR WAGNER: Why I'm asking you this is in the final execution of the operation, what was left to your own discretion and what was the specific instruction of General Nyanda?

JOSEPH KGOELE: The instructions were for me to go out there, set the decoy bomb and then ultimately trigger the remote control bomb.  Then after that I had to go and report back to Swaziland.

MR WAGNER: So am I right in saying then that your discretion would then be aspects like exactly where the car had to be parked and exactly where you had to stand when detonating the device and so forth?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: Did General Nyanda instruct you regarding the amount of explosives to be used for instance?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No he never made mention of the explosive to me.  All I can say is after getting the sketch from Mr Shoke I used all that I retrieved from the DLB, I think those materials precisely meant for this particular operation.

MR WAGNER: And can you tell this Committee what was the amount of explosives used specifically in the big explosion if I may call it that, the second explosion?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I would say it was around about 100 kgs.

MR WAGNER: Are you sure of this fact, 100 kilogram, more or less?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I am not certain because I didn't have to weight them, I'm just making an approximation by the weight of the things that I had that it could have been approximately around + 100 kgs.

MR WAGNER: Why I'm asking this is I'm definitely not an explosives expert, but we've heard evidence in previous matters and in terms of that, 100 kilograms of explosives that is a huge bomb, if I may call it that.

JOSEPH KGOELE: Well that's your interpretation.  Like I'm saying I didn't weigh them so I'm just making a - it could be a poor judgement, could have been less than that.

MR WAGNER: Now can you tell us very briefly when you fetched these explosives from the DLB, what did you have to do to convert this, if I, to convert this into a bomb?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Okay, I think I must put things into proper context.  These explosives were already made.  All I had to do was to put in the detonators, that's all, the explosives were there.

MR WAGNER: And I assume you had to put in a certain triggering device as well or a time device or am I wrong?

JOSEPH KGOELE: On the limpet mine yes.  With the other explosives I depended entirely upon the remote control device.

MR WAGNER: Now please help me Mr Kgoele and I'm referring now to the big bomb if I - you're with me, the big bomb.  When you parked our car outside the Magistrate's Court early in the morning - maybe I should first ask you, can you remember at what time did you park your car there?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Past six, somewhere there, past six to seven because it was early I had to find parking space as I indicated earlier.