Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-06

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now then we know that in the case of the Edendale escape, you notified Botswana that you were about to do it, is that not correct?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: Was that to get permission to do the escape or just to keep them informed of what you were doing?

MR MCBRIDE: It was to keep them informed and I wasn't sure that they had received the report about the situation.  And furthermore, when I envisaged being successful, I didn't want to run into a vacuum on the other side because these guys worked 24 hours a day and they were not always in the same place at the same time.  I needed a support structure when I brought the guy across.

MR RICHARD: So that leaves us with one - well, we'll finish the characteristics.  When it came to the bringing of weaponry into South Africa, in the last two cases, that's the Self Defence Units and your own unit, that was also done within the ambit of your ordinary instructions, the ordinary arrangements.

MR MCBRIDE: Let me explain this to you so that you can understand.  The Self Defence Units, the ANC had suspended its armed struggle, negotiations were under way, there was, MK really was in barracks at that stage, it was after 1990, after the unbanning of the ANC, after I came out of prison, separate from my Special Operations things.  It was not an MK operation because MK was not supposed to have been giving weapons to people at that stage.

MR RICHARD: But in respect of that activity, yesterday if I understood it correctly, and correct me if I'm wrong, you went to your superior, that's Mr Ismail, discussed it with him, and I think Mr Kasrils as well you mentioned.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: And they gave you an instruction to proceed.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, that's correct, they also assisted me in proceeding.

MR RICHARD: Now then we come to the, what I'm going to term Parade Hotel, because it's the name of the building rather than any particular thing.  In that case, if I understand your chronology, a decision had been made to utilise a car bomb.  When was that idea first discussed?

MR MCBRIDE: It was early in the year.  And I referred to it because I only have one time landmark, if I can use it, before Easter.  So it was at some stage earlier, Gordon was given the instructions.  I'm not sure at what stage.

JUDGE PILLAY: I think Mr Richard, his answer to my question was about three to three-and-a-half months before the actual bomb was planted.

MR RICHARD: Now before we go into the story of the car bomb, I'm going to take you back to 1997.  When did you decide to make application for amnesty?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember the exact date, but it was at the stage where the ANC said we should be involved and when the Special Ops guys decided to get together, I can't remember the exact sequence of events, and to apply for amnesty because we were separated all over the country and we needed to pull people in wherever they were.

MR RICHARD: Now we've heard before that you received service of the subpoena to attend the Section 29 hearing investigation.  Do you remember when about you got the summons?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember, I think it was either - in '96, I think it was.

MR RICHARD: So you had indeed had the subpoena in your possession for a long time?

MR MCBRIDE: I don't recall saying that.

MR RICHARD: I understood your answer to be to the question, "Do you recall when you received service of the subpoena?"

MR MCBRIDE: And I said "No, I don't".

MR RICHARD: Was it a long time before or a short time before?

MR MCBRIDE: Before what, Sir?

MR RICHARD: Before the hearing.

MR MCBRIDE: I don't think it was a long time, I think it might have been about a month, three weeks, something like that.

MR RICHARD: Now did you take legal advice on the subpoena?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember specifically, I think I spoke to Mr Currin about it, yes.

MR RICHARD: Did Mr Currin assist you in completing the form?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember.  We worked with Mr Currin with my wife.  It was during the time we were getting organised to apply for amnesty.  A lot of people helped.

MR RICHARD: Now what role did you play, if any, in preparing the African National Congress's 6 August 1996 statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember specifically, but at the stage before there was the - the statement was made, I met with Rashid and we then made notes which were then handed to the President of the ANC, at a meeting where they were compiling the presentation.

MR RICHARD: Now this document in the section numbered 6.2.4, entitled "Conduct of War and Civilian Casualties", has this excerpt
"The much publicised case of a car bomb explosion at the Magoo's and Why Not bars on 14 June '86, provides another example of an operation in which civilians ..."
...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: Sir, where are you reading from?

CHAIRPERSON: The submission to the TRC by the ANC, the August 1996 one, and it appears on page 58 and 59.

MR MCBRIDE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you just identify the particular paragraph again, Mr Richard, whereabouts is it?

MR RICHARD: It's the paragraph which starts
"The much publicised case of the car bomb explosion at the Magoo's and Why Not bars on ..."
It's page 60.

CHAIRPERSON: 60.  Thank you.  Yes, I have it, page 60, the second-last paragraph on the left-hand side of the page.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, I have that, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Now who provided the writers of that document with the information on which that paragraph is based?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't say specifically who provided that.  They had a lot of documents.  They had documents from Rashid, from me, from other members of the unit.  I don't - I was not there when it was compiled and put in this order.  So you're asking me something I don't know.

MR RICHARD: But you had an input, didn't you?  You said you ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, yes, I had an input.  I was an operative, so I had some input in it.

MR RICHARD: And then by the time you came to complete your amnesty application, had you read and considered that statement and that submission?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember referring to the submission when I was drawing up my amnesty statement.

MR RICHARD: My question was slightly different.  By the time you came to complete the amnesty application form, had you read the ANC's submission that I've just referred you to?  Were you aware of its contents?

MR MCBRIDE: I hadn't read it, no I didn't read it.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever debate that paragraph or other paragraphs with anyone within the ANC?

MR MCBRIDE: Can you just repeat that question, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever debate the paragraph I've referred you to ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: I could not have debated it, Sir, if I did not see it.

MR RICHARD: Did you debate it either before or afterwards, at any stage?

MR MCBRIDE: Debate the paragraph?

MR RICHARD: Did you discuss it?

MR MCBRIDE: Debate the paragraph, Sir?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

MR MCBRIDE: I could not have debated the paragraph if I had not seen it.

MR RICHARD: When did you first see it?

MR MCBRIDE: Well I think in all honesty, I've seen it now for the first time.

MR RICHARD: So then I make this as a proposition.  By the time you came to complete your amnesty application, you had not read and considered that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's fairly obvious if he says he hasn't seen it until now.

MR RICHARD: I go to the next document in that series.  It's a document which is entitled, according to the one that I have in my possession "ANC Questions, Questions already given to ANC, Requests for Clarification on Matter raised in the ANC Submission".

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Richard, is it from the same submission?

MR RICHARD: It came into existence after this.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think it's the - would it be contained in one of the supplementary ones?