Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR DLAMINI: I don't have the energy or the power to do that, I am feeling a bit weak.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in hospital last week?  Officer, you took Mr Dlamini to hospital last week and can you just tell me what was the situation and what is the situation now?  Could you just identify yourself please officer?

WARRANT OFFICER NHLABO: I am Warrant Officer Nhlabo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You took him to hospital last week.  Have you had any indication about his medical condition?

WARRANT OFFICER NHLABO: Yes, they said he is suffering from stress and that is causing diarrhoea.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VALLY: Archbishop, if it is just a temporary feeling right now, we can change the order.  If he is going to be feeling bad for the rest of the day, then we will have to make a decision, but maybe we can determine that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Dlamini, you will have to tell us as to whether you will be able to render testimony today or if not today, please do advise us?

MR DLAMINI: I do not have any energy, I feel very ill at the moment.  Hanif?

MR VALLY: Mr Soller has just advised me that there is a number of - maybe he can tell you himself, but I will briefly say, there is a number of ex-MK people who have arrived now and if any of them are members of the Mandela United Football Club, we would like Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela to point them out, because we have previously asked her to point them out to us and she hasn't done so yet.
 That is a side issue.  He has pointed out that because Mr Dlamini's family is here, Mr Dlamini is feeling intimidated by these young men and Mr Mbatha as well and this may be the reason why he is reluctant to talk right now.

CHAIRPERSON: The truth is that there are people who intimidate you, you feel very intimidated.

MR DLAMINI: No, it is not that I am intimidated, I want to say I am sick.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thulani Dlamini is not feeling well, and Dr Randera, speaking as a Doctor, says just looking at him, he would be concerned about his being able to continue, so I think we should probably let him stand down.

MR VALLY: Mr Soller pointed out that he was talking about Mr Mbatha, so maybe we need to get Mr Mbatha here and ask him if he is willing to go on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You are going to have to see a Doctor, because we need your testimony.  When do you think  you will be able to testify, late in the afternoon?

MR DLAMINI: Even in jail, I am admitted, I am from hospital at the moment.  I was admitted to the jail hospital, or military hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, may we record that for Mr Hanif to make this (indistinct) remarks to which he says but that is by the way, it is not proper and for him to say that there are MK members here who are members of the Football Club and Mrs Mandela must point them out, really all of these comments are hardly necessary under these circumstances.
 We have been sitting here, we don't know who is in the room and for him to make those type of comments, is most unfortunate, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: The only thing in this particular instance is that the legal representative of the two witnesses I think, is one who should really in fact have made the statement, because he was whispering to Mr Hanif.
 I think maybe you should being of age, speak for yourself.

MR MOHAMMED: Mr Chairperson, I'm sorry to intervene, my name is Omar Mohammed and I'm the attorney representing Thulani Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MOHAMMED: Mr Chairperson, I have canvassed the matter with my client regarding his evidence and regarding to any form of intimidation and he's indicated to me quite strongly that he is not being intimidated and he's willing to give evidence today, he would require some time perhaps just to recover but I will come back to you Mr Chairperson regarding when there'll be a possibility to perhaps give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, that is why I'm saying that you possibly want to consult with your client and give us an indication because I would have wanted - if it was possible for us, to have heard him today.

MR MOHAMMED: That's correct Mr Chairperson, I also want this matter to be finalised.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOHAMMED: But perhaps this matter regarding my client can stand down and I'll give an exact date and time as to when we can ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, the date is today - time.

MR MOHAMMED: Mr Chairperson, I'll try and speak to my client, perhaps sometime this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right.  Thank you very, very much, that is a great help.  Yes?

MRPETER SOLLER: When I spoke to my learned friend a few moments ago, it was as you saw in a whispering type discussion.  If my learned friend misunderstood me as saying I was representing Mr Dlamini as well, that was a misunderstanding.  Mr Mbatha expected himself to be the next witness as you yourself did too Mr Chairperson.
 All of a sudden while there was the interchange of witnesses and Mrs Sisulu was stepping down I was suddenly called to come and consult with Mr Mbatha in the witness's room.  These were my instructions that Mr Mbatha - who has been willing to testify has been here everyday since this Commission began, had noticed this morning two things, first of all his family had for the first time come here to support him and to be with him - they haven't been here at all Mr Chairperson.  
 Secondly, he had noticed the presence of a number of MK's as he called them to me - as he described them to me.  He himself Mr Chairperson, has not much to fear because we know at the end of the day he's going back to prison Mr Chairperson but what he does fear very much is testifying in front of these people and allowing his family to leave the Commission tonight because he fears very much for their safety.  
 Now, in discussion with my learned friend the suggestion was muted that I put the request to you Mr Chairperson, for some form of witness protection for those members of his family and with respect, who have every right to be here today to hear him give his evidence Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  The first point I would want to make is that I will not tolerate - and I don't think we can as a Commission, tolerate anyone being intimidated or even having the suggestion that they are being intimidated.  If it is that they're able to identify people who have done so, then they ought to let the Commission know because it is an offence for that to happen.
 The second is that clearly we have an obligation since we are seeking the truth and the witness certainly has the right to have the support of his family with him but we are under obligation as well to see as far as is possible, that no harm will come to the families.
 My colleague has disappeared just now but we will ensure that for now the limited witness protection programme that we have should be put in place.  We will not tolerate being hampered by people either being intimidated or being left under the impression that they in fact might be intimidated.   I hope that we will be given assistance in order to identify those who might in fact be guilty of this particular offence.

MRPETER SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I think the difficulty we have is there's active intimidation and there's passive intimidation, I for one - and I might be quite wrong because I'm not a political animal as you know Mr Chairperson with respect, I   for one this morning saw a number of men in military uniform arrive in this Commission which I haven't seen on any single day prior to the Commission being heard.