Human Rights Violation Hearings — Empangeni — 1996-11-06

MRS GCABASHE: Mrs Luthuli, we do ... (end of tape 3A)

MRS GCABASHE: 3B/0

WITNESS:   It helps me to pray and we've got groups.  We all pray when the times get very difficult, but what affected me even most were the threats that I was being hunted and I was on the hit list.

MRS GCABASHE:  You said what affected you?

WITNESS:   The fact that I was going to be killed.  I was scared that I was going to be killed and I was going to leave my children behind.  I was very stressed.  This is what took its toll on me.  There were certain people who came in 1993 and at the time I was very brave.  I felt that they could do anything that they wanted to do.  They knocked at the window and I went out the door.  I saw somebody with a gun.  I said, "In Jesus' name you must go away", because they had already broken the burglar guard, and I think that was the day I was supposed to have died.  I could not see as to who this person was.  He should have been 18 years or 20 years old and he was quite tall.

MRS GCABASHE:  Do you think you need counselling or what is your opinion of receiving counselling?

WITNESS:   It's difficult for me to say whether I do need counselling or I don't.  Maybe it's because I'm growing old or because I'm working, it looks like I'm coping.  Maybe other people will see that I'm not coping and as a mother I'm more concerned about my children than myself.

MRS GCABASHE:  Now, according to my own observation, after hearing what you are telling, I think the whole family - yourself, as well as your children - do need some form of counselling.  You need some support.  You need people to talk to and talk about your problems.  I know you have this faith and this gives you strength but we believe you also do need counselling.  Are you still staying at the same house?

WITNESS:   Yes, I'm staying at the same house and the practice was closed.

MRS GCABASHE:  Now, if you had a request or a wish before this Commission, what would that be?

WITNESS:   My main worry is my children, that if I die what would happen to them, especially the one who is taking a lot of treatment - cocktail of tablets - and they are attending very expensive schools because my husband could afford that when he was still there and they never learnt Zulu, so they could not start from scratch, learning Zulu, so I had to carry this load of educating them in these multi-racial schools and Nolundi's treatment is very expensive, because it exhausts my medical aid, and they usually tell me that they can't pay for any of the tablets that she receives.

MRS GCABASHE: We understand, Mrs Luthuli.  We are asking - we are not actually promising to deliver, but we are asking so that we can make recommendations to the State President, but he is the one who makes the final decision at the end of the day as to how he should help people who have been so severely and drastically affected by the practices of the past.  I shall hand over to the Chairperson.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mrs Luthuli, I'll ask you just a few questions.  I can see that you are suffering from exhaustion.  I just want to go back to the people who came to your house, who said they wanted to be seen by your husband.  Did you ever see those people?

WITNESS:   No, we never saw those people.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Could you recognise any voices?

WITNESS:   It was very difficult, because the consulting room is quite small and he used to go in there alone and take care of his parents and I wouldn't even go there.  So it means that he went in there and tried to consult with his patients.  There was no way that I could have seen them.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Was your husband an active political member?

WITNESS:  No, he never belonged to any political organization.  He never told me about any involvement.

KHOZA MGOJO:  What was happening at that place, that is at Esikhaweni, during that time?  Could you just give us a brief explanation and draw a picture?

WITNESS:   Violence had just started and each time the children were coming back from school, especially the children from Ndlovasu High School, they would come to the surgery and complain that the situation was not calm, and at times I would ask them as to why they did not go to other surgeries and they never used to want to go to any other surgery.  At times they would stay there till after lunch, but I never paid much attention as to why they used to frequent my husband's surgery.

KHOZA MGOJO:  The police who were investigating, who was in charge of these policemen?

WITNESS:   If I'm not mistaken, it was a certain Mr Mdluli.  I do not know whether he was heading the investigation or he was in charge.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Is he the only one that you remember?

WITNESS:   There was also a Mr Ndwandwe, but I think Mr Ndwandwe is now late, but I do remember Mr Mdluli very well.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Do you know whether Mr Mdluli is still alive?

WITNESS:  Mr Mdluli is still alive and I saw him at the inquest.  I understand Mr Ndwandwe has since passed away, because they wanted him at the inquest.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Where does Mr Mdluli stay?

WITNESS:   I think he stays in Esikhaweni.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Is he one of the people who told you that it was difficult for them to go on with the investigation?

WITNESS:  No, it was a certain Mr Ntuli.  It's Mr Ntuli who said it was difficult for them to investigate the matter and they were doing all that was in their power to go on with the investigation and they started to fear for their lives.  It was Derek Ntuli and Sergeant Xulu.  They said they had problems with this case.  They never detailed what the problems were, but they said their lives were at stake.  And I asked them as to how could their lives be at stake when they were so young and I do not understand what they were telling me.  They said they had tried all that was in their power, but there was an irresistible force that was preventing them from going on with the investigation.  They told me that they had been taken out of the case and they had been told to stop investigating the matter.  They did say they had problems.

KHOZA MGOJO: That doesn't really give us problems, because we can investigate the matter on our own.  We sympathise with you.  Please pass our condolences to your children.  Firstly, we know that in this continent of ours we do not have doctors.  We've even fetched doctors from Cuba, especially black doctors.  They are as important as gold and they should be protected because our community needs them.  Now, if people could just go to a doctor and kill that doctor, that is a shame.  I also wish that these people could be brought to book, as you've just said that you want the Commission to try and get the people who killed your husband and when it gets them you also want to see them.  I do believe that there are a lot of people who would want to see the murderers of Dr Henry Luthuli, so that they may explain to us as to why they killed your husband.  You've detailed your requests and we shall pass them on to the State President.  We wish that your requests or wishes could be granted.  I am impressed by the fact that you believe in God.  To me that's a source of great strength, because a non-believer is just like an animal, because even in the Zulu culture people used to gather together to pray and sing praises to the Lord.  Now, your believing is your source of strength and God is your shoulder to lean on.  I wish the Lord may help you.  We thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Luthuli, yesterday and on Monday two women here gave evidence that their sons were killed in, I think it was Sokhulu, by the police and, from information that we have, it appears that your husband may have done a post-mortem - a second post-mortem on those bodies.  Do you know anything about that?