Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They were taken with, but when they got into the ANC offices I was not present, I was not inside, I was outside.  I did not take any part on that day when they were questioned, I was not even there.

MS THABETE: So you wouldn't even know whether they were questioned or not, is that correct?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Is it maybe the reason why you decided to call them that day to go and question them again, from the tavern because you were not there when they were questioned by Skhosana?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: When we found them at the tavern the intention was to take them and ask them questions about some of the people who lived in the township and one of them refused, she was adamant, and it so happened that she was shot at.

MS THABETE: What questions did you - what did you want to find out from them basically?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: The questions relating to Boipatong Massacre and other massacres that took place in the township, as well as other people who were killed by the IFP.  We wanted to know who was responsible behind these things.

MS THABETE: I see.  Mr Mkhwanazi, it's also my instructions that Ms Hapile Ndumo and Ms Elsie Mokoena were not IFP members at all, what is your comment on that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I am against that, I am sure they were members of the IFP and the community within the area knew it, they knew that they were members of the IFP.

MS THABETE: Do you know Mr Johannes Mnsime?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Pardon?

MS THABETE: Do you know Mr Johannes Mnsime?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I think I know him.  I don't know, but I think I've heard of the name.

MS THABETE: You've heard of the name.  Maybe just to refresh your memory, he was a policeman in De Deur.  Do you know him?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

MS THABETE: Because it's also my instructions that you actually targeted Ms Mokoena and Ms Hapile because Ms Mokoena had a relationship with the policeman, Mr Johannes Mnsime.  What is your comment on that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is not the reason why we targeted her, I did not know the affair with the policeman.  The thing that led us to killing them is the one I've already indicated to you.

MS THABETE: In your evidence you stated that you heard from Hapile Ndumo that she was involved in the Boipatong Massacre, is that correct?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS THABETE: And she told you on the 14th of August when she was shot?

CHAIRPERSON: On the 15th, Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: The 15th of August when she was shot.  Thank you, Madam Chair, I'm indebted to you.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS THABETE: So would you say in fact that according to your knowledge, she was involved in the Boipatong Massacre, would you say that's one of the reasons why you had killed her, or she was shot by you?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It is one of the reasons that she ended up dead.

MS THABETE: What did you say the other reasons being?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I think I explained earlier on that they took information from the township and took it to where they stayed, to the party they belonged to.  In other words, they were spying on the people in the township.

MS THABETE: That's another reason you're saying?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Is it also another reason, the fact that in paragraph 9 you say there were said to be IFP members, would you say that's another reason why you killed them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Mr Mkhwanazi, my last question.  Do you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I request, Ms Thabete with your indulgence, to interpose before I lose this point.
	You say the other reason that Ms Ndumo was killed and Ms Mokoena assaulted severely is because they took information from the township to their organisation, being the IFP?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know about that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I think I mentioned earlier on that when a member of the IFP was captured in the township - I think I did explain that when a member of the IFP was captured in the township, before that member was killed he or she would be questioned and they would conceal who the members of the IFP were there, those who resided in the township.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Translator, you said "they would conceal", did you mean reveal?

INTERPRETER: Excuse the Interpreter, Chairperson, yes, we wanted to say "reveal".

MR LAX: Okay.  Continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it that how you came to know that Ms Ndumo and Mokoena were spying for the IFP?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You got information from people who knew they were being questioned only to be eliminated immediately thereafter?  You relied on the information obtained from such persons?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever present when an IFP person was questioned and revealed the names of Ms Mokoena and Ndumo?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: When some of the comrades have captured a person and questioned that person, they would report to other comrades as to what transpired out of the questioning so that all of us would know what the responses were, but I had never questioned anyone.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you approximate to this Committee, approximately when did this kind of information come to your attention, that the ladies in question were spying for the IFP?  Do you want me to repeat my question?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No, I will respond.  I can briefly say there is a certain boy who used to be in my company when we were in the township.  He was a member of the IFP and his names was Skhalo.  They lived in a shack at a place called Eating Site.
	Now it looks like they were recruited.  Now Skhalo frequented the township, that was before this conflict.  He even showed us the membership card of the IFP and he wanted us to join this party.
	We knew through Skhalo that these girls were members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: My question wanted to elicit the time period within which the information came to your attention that the ladies in question were spying for the IFP.  I did not want to know who gave you the information, I just wanted to know the time period during which you became aware that Ms Mokoena and Ndumo were spying for the IFP.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was around 1990 or 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have already testified that in 1990 you were not a member of the ANC Youth League, is it not so?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct, but I have a suggestion to that effect.  I was a supporter, I was not a card-carrying member of the ANC, I was just a supporter.  Because when I went apply for a card they told me that I was still under age, they said I should rather wait for a year before obtaining a card.

CHAIRPERSON: When you received this information, either in 1990 or 1991, what did you do with it, did you bring it to the attention of your branch?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was known in the township that these people were members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the attitude of the township residents about these persons being IFP spies, to your knowledge?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: People were not yet killed in the township when this transpired, now they were still roaming around the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabete, for your indulgence, you may proceed.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, according to Mr Radebe's affidavit, you and him at some stage went to Stanley during the incident which led to the killing of Hapile Ndumo and injury of Elsie Mokoena, you went to a Stanley, is that correct?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Why did you go there?