Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, once you were prepared to lie in this manner before the Saturday meeting and it appears that you lied about the number of chairs in the room, whether a chair was thrown at you or Mr Siebert;  how can you suggest to the court that why they should believe anything that you may have to say about the correctness of this entry?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it is correct that that matter is false or is wrong.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, then in yesterday when you pointed out to the two matters which were wrong, you were asked and this was your answer, which was recorded by my learned friend;
	"The remainder was as I had observed it."
You recall saying that?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've told the Chairman this morning that you didn't see Mr Biko hit his head against the wall?  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: I said that he did bump his head against the wall, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, you said that you did not see it.  Don't you remember what you said to the Chairman just shortly before the adjournment?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.  It was however clear that during the scuffle his head somehow ended up against the wall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is there any difference between seeing and "waar te neem"?

MR SNYMAN: There is no difference, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Of course not, so that when you said yesterday that you saw, when you confirmed C1 wherein it says that he bumped against his head, you were not telling the truth yesterday when you said, you saw that. "Die res is wat ek waargeneem het". (The remainder is what I observed.)  That was false.

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.  I said that he had bumped his head in the scuffle or fight.

GEORGE BIZOS: You said you didn't see it in answer to the Chairman.  Yesterday you said that "u het dit waargeneem".  Both can't be true.

MR SNYMAN: I said heard the sound.  I heard his head bump against the wall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you say that to the Chairman before the adjournment?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it is difficult for me after such a long time to put everything into perspective and to recall everything.

GEORGE BIZOS: What is the difference of a sound between an elbow or a knee or any other part of the body, hitting the wall and the head hitting the wall?  What is the difference in the sound that it makes? Is there any difference.

MR SNYMAN: I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Because what you have just said after the adjournment shows that you were prepared to tell lies yesterday and that you even made up a lie a few moments ago when you said you heard the sound when you can't distinguish the sound, whether it's the head or any part of the body in order to justify a previous lie. What do you say to that?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, his head hit the wall first.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which you didn't see.  Anyway, let's leave it at that
for argument.
	I want to turn to the basic attempted justification on your part.  That is that this was done for a political purpose, because of the National Party politicians' statements and your superiors.
	Please remember that we are talking about 1977.  Was torture sanctioned to your knowledge by any National Party politician?

MR SNYMAN: There was no pertinent instruction give to us in this regard, but there was pressure placed on us at all times to bring the situation under control and this did occur by means of the detention of persons.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you recall that the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Police, the Prime Minister even when he became a President, that the politicians were expressly saying that detainees were ill-treated, was untrue and that it was the false propaganda of the enemies of South Africa, the ANC, the Communist Party and more particularly the Press.
	Do you recall that that was the gravamen of their public statements?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot recall, but this might well be the case.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well if need be, we will put newspaper cuttings before the Committee as to how strongly and publicly they protested that no-one was authorised to ill-treat detainees.  Are you able to deny that?

MR SNYMAN: I am not able to deny it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Furthermore, do you recall that after Mr Biko's death, there was a commission of inquiry headed by the chief Justice, Mr Justice Rabe?  Do you recall that?

MR SNYMAN: I do recall something like that, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, and the police and more particularly the security police were very anxious to persuade the chief justice and the members of the committee that detainees were not ill-treated, but this was merely false propaganda to besmudge the good name of the security police and South Africa.  	Do you remember that that was the gravamen of the police submissions?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I can no longer recall all of those things.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now, if we show to the Committee that those in authority disclaimed any instruction or authority given to anyone to ill-treat detainees, will you accept that?

MR SNYMAN: I don't understand the question entirely.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  If in fact, the public record shows that torture was considered a lawful, unjustifiable and frowned upon by the leaders of the National Party, you can hardly be heard to say that you believed that you were furthering the objectives of the National Party in 1977 by ill-treating detainees and particularly Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, if they stated it in that way then I
would suppose that it is such, but pressure was placed on us from both the Government and our own head office to rescue the situation, to solve the situation with regard to the unrest.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but you could have done that by being good policemen and being efficient and working overtime and using scientific methods in order to detect or possibly get more informers. Where was there the authority to torture people?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.  We did have to work very long hours to bring the situation to good order.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why don't you want to admit the obvious;  that there was no directive at that time from any politician that you should use torture, because their public statements were completely to the contrary?

MR SNYMAN: That might be the case, your Honour.  However, pressure was exercised or exerted on us that when we did an interrogation like this we had to break down the person in order to obtain the information from the person with regard to his activities.

GEORGE BIZOS: By using torture, do you say, or by using legitimate means?

MR SNYMAN: By legal means, but irregularities might well have occurred or might possibly have occurred.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that you admit that you had no instruction or any encouragement from any politician to torture detainees?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the instructions were that when a person was in detention, these instructions were received from the commanding officer who gave directives with regard to how the interrogation should be managed.

GEORGE BIZOS: We'll come to your superiors in the police force.  Let's finish with the politicians.  Do you admit that no politician, either privately or publicly ever told you that torturing detainees was to be used?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, they did not state this pertinently, but from their speeches it was clear that they exerted pressure on us to bring the situation under control.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you really saying that what politicians said publicly for public consumption and what they allowed to happen, were two different things?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which politicians do you say knew that this chamber at Sanlam Buildings was used as a torture chamber?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, no politician to the best of my knowledge ever entered that office.  I cannot recall anything like that.

GEORGE BIZOS: By the way, what was the filing cabinet in this little chamber for; what was in it?