Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MR CELE: Not all of us.  There were some who had specifically attacked the deceased whilst some pursued the rest of his group.  There were many people involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Please just allow us to understand your evidence properly.  You were in the group that attacked the deceased, whilst the others were pursuing those who were fleeing, is that not so?

MR CELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I'm talking about your group, the one that remained with the deceased, attacked him.  After shooting the deceased, what did your group do?

MR CELE: As I mentioned before, we were all in a hurry because after shooting and killing the deceased, we were all hurrying to try and pursue the rest of the group.  I could not therefore see if some people remained behind or what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of you participated in the attacking of the deceased and the shooting that followed, in the process of attacking the deceased?  I know you were a group of about 10, but how many of you participated in the actual attacking of the deceased?

MR CELE: I know of Bongani Khumalo, who shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm saying how many?  I haven't actually come to asking the identities of the person who were in the group.  How many people participated in attacking the deceased?  I know the group split into two, one remained with the deceased and the other group pursued those who were fleeing.  So how many of you were there when the deceased was attacked?

MR CELE: As I have mentioned before, we were about 10.  The only person that I witnessed also attacking the deceased was that other person.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was yourself and Bongani Khumalo, who remained and attacked the deceased, that's your evidence?

MR CELE: It was not just the two of us who attacked him.

CHAIRPERSON: You are unable to remember how many people remained behind whilst the rest of the group pursued those who were fleeing.

MR CELE: I do not remember just how many people there were when the deceased was attacked, I just remember Bongani.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want you to tell us how many people actually attacked the deceased, what I want to know is how many of you were there around the deceased at the time of his attack.

MR CELE: I mentioned before that we were about 10.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a group of 10 when you were attacked, you returned fire and you pursued.  Some of you remained with the deceased whilst the other group ran after the people who were fleeing.  So obviously amongst this group of 10, some must have remained with the deceased whilst the others ran after those who were fleeing.  So you couldn't have been 10 at the time when the deceased was attacked.

MR CELE: I did not mean to say that there were 10 of us when I was first attacked, what I meant was, the group of people who ran after the deceased were about 10, but there were others who ran after those people who were fleeing.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't seem to be making any progress, so I will leave this point.  Ms Thabethe?

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you allow her, Chair.
	May I just get clarity.  When Ms Thabethe read you the portion from the judgment on page 119, she read about the necklacing and the post-mortem examination conducted by Dr Govender, and she asked you for your comment and you said it was a lie, it wasn't true.  Was the deceased not necklaced?  Is that your evidence?

MR CELE: I said I do not know. It is possible that maybe some people remained and then they necklaced him.

MR MALAN: But at no stage did you have any knowledge, personal knowledge, that he indeed was necklaced?

MR CELE: I learnt of it in Court.

MR MALAN: Now the second thing, I want to refer you to your statement, paragraph 9.  Now that version is somewhat different from the evidence we have now.  If I can read you - do you have paragraph 9 before you?  There you say that at about seven in the evening you were at home alone, all your family had left.  You were seated outside because it wasn't safe to stay in the house.  You needed to stay outside and guard the area.  Now get clear here, you were alone.  Then you saw a group of people coming in, you first thought that they were comrades, you called out to them and they started shooting.  Then you say that luckily you were standing behind a big tree.  You then protected yourself.  You had a pump-gun.  You were then joined by people from the area, who returned shots at the direction of these people.  They then ran away and you pursued them.  One of them tried - I think it's hid, I'm not sure what it should read - behind a bush, but you shot at someone that you found behind the bush.  The others got away.  And you then went back to your homes.  Now that sentence is the same as the evidence thusfar, the rest is quite different.  And then especially the last sentence where you say
"I believe that the person I shot was Amos Cele, as he was found dead the next day."
Now how did you find him the next day?

MR CELE: I did not mean that I found him, but he was found by the police.  That's what I heard.

MR MALAN: Now would you think that you were the person who had shot Amos Cele?

MR CELE: I thought so because his body was found at that spot where I had shot at the person.

MR MALAN: At what spot was that?

MR CELE: Near Madlala's kraal.

MR MALAN: But your evidence now is that there were a lot of attackers and there were a lot of people pursuing them and there were a lot of people shooting.  You can remember only Bongani Khumalo, but you weren't the only person shooting, or were you?

MR CELE: Bongani and myself were pursuing this one person, that is the person we shot near Madlala's kraal and Amos Cele was found, his body was found at that spot the following day.  That is why I say I believe that must have been the person I shot.

MR MALAN: Let me just take you back to your statement.  Please read again paragraph 9, about in the middle.  You say
"I was then joined by people from the area, who returned shots at the direction of these people."
So the people joined you where you found yourself, at your home, behind the tree.  The people then ran away and you pursued and one of these persons found shelter behind a bush and you shot him once.  Is that correct?

MR CELE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you recognise Amos Cele then?  Did you know that that person was Amos Cele?

MR CELE: No.

MR MALAN: Right.  But you shot one person, but all the others were present, also shooting.  Why do you believe that Amos Cele was that person that you shot, why not shot by some of the others, or one of the others?

MR CELE: That is because he is the only person who was found shot and the only person that I remember shooting was Bongani, whom I mentioned.  I explained before that the others managed to escape.

MR MALAN: Right.  You returned to your home.

MR CELE: After that we tried to communicate with the rest of our group, trying to find out if they had managed to catch one of these other persons and it transpired that nobody had been caught and then we returned home.

MR MALAN: Yes, and you went back to your home?

MR CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And nobody told you that Amos Cele was necklaced, you never heard of that?

MR CELE: No.

MR MALAN: Do you accept that he indeed was necklaced, or do you believe that it is a lie?

MR CELE: I would not know because I did not see it.  I cannot dispute nor agree with it.

MR MALAN: I just want to make sure, when that passage on page 119 of the bundle, from the judgment, was read out to you, you said that it was not true.  Why did you say that it wasn't true, that he was necklaced?

MR CELE: I was disputing that one of us necklaced him.

MR MALAN: Now who would have necklaced him, if we accept that he was necklaced?  And clearly he was necklaced because we have an independent doctor who did the post-mortem examination and we must accept that he was indeed necklaced and burnt.  Who would have burnt him if it's not from your group?