Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Those are your words, they are not mine.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.
	Did the deceased have anything with him when he came to see you that morning?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did not take note of anything.

MR RICHARD: You didn't see him carrying anything or anything in his pockets?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did not notice anything.

MR RICHARD: If he had had a gun or something with him, would you have been able to see it?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: If I have my gun with me you will not be able to see it.

MR RICHARD: Do you know what he was wearing that day, do you remember?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't remember what he was wearing.

MR RICHARD: If I say that according to the documents with which I've been briefed, he was wearing a T-shirt and some grey or black trousers, red socks and red shoes, would you remember that?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't want to commit myself to that because this happened a long time ago, so I will not sit here and say I remember that.

MR RICHARD: Now when he arrived, did you take any notice as to whether he was alone or whether people were with him that he left outside, or did he just come to your door?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: When he arrived when, in the afternoon?

MR RICHARD: That Sunday morning.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: He was alone, because I walked him out.

MR RICHARD: But when he arrived, did you see whether he was with anyone?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did not see anything.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ask him where he was going to go once he'd left you?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I thought I explained that he said he wanted to go somewhere and I said to him; go and come back.  That I said.

MR RICHARD: If you were suspicious of the deceased at that stage, didn't it occur to you that if he arrived in the morning then went away, he might be setting up a trap?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: It could have been up to him that.

MR RICHARD: Somebody you suspect arrives at your house in the morning, you talk to him very briefly and he goes away, you stay at your house and you tell him to come back to your house later that afternoon, didn't that arrangement worry you if you were suspicious?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know what you want me to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Well more than to come back to  your house, didn't you know that your commander was going to be at your house that afternoon, and here you were telling this man to come back there?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did not see anything wrong or any problem in what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't suspect that he was setting up a Security Police trap, you saw no danger of that?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Now I don't know what to say or what statement must I utter, because from here onward I'll be lying if I have to elaborate on this.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to lie to elaborate, you can tell the truth.  Is the position that you didn't suspect him of anything, you saw no reason to suspect a trap?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: To suspect him does not mean I must be a coward.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you suspect him of working for the Security Police then?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was not certain about that.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't ask you whether you were certain, I asked you whether you suspected him of working for the Security Police when he came to your house in the morning?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That did occur.

CHAIRPERSON: Mm?  You did?  But you didn't ask him where he'd been, you didn't ask him where he was going to, you merely arranged for him to return to your house at a time you knew your commander was going to be there, is that the factual position as you put it?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I explained that as you've said.

MR RICHARD: Now for how long was he away from your house between the time that he left in the morning and the time he came back, how many hours was that?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't how much you want me to say because I did say that he came in the afternoon towards dusk.  That's what I said.  As to how long, maybe I'll have to start to refresh my mind and count hours, an hour, like that.

MR RICHARD: We know that there were seven hours in the afternoon approximately, at what time in the morning did he leave you?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: He arrived around eleven.

MR RICHARD: So he had an entire day, eight or more hours to do what he liked without any surveillance or control over him, and you were happy with that situation?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, when you refer to happiness, I don't know what you're talking about now.

MR RICHARD: Very well, then when he came back that afternoon, who did he meet with first, you or you and Mr Dube, or Mr Dube?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: He found us outside, the two of us.

MR RICHARD: And were you present when Mr Dube started searching him and talking to him?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did explain that I was not there.

MR RICHARD: So you didn't see the discovery of this alleged radio transmitter, two-way radio?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did say that.

CHAIRPERSON: As soon as he arrived did Mr Dube say go and phone the others and tell them to get ready?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: When he arrived he greeted us and asked us as to how we are doing and faring and he said to me I must go in and phone the other two, and I did just  that.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you ever see the radio transmitter?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I thought I explained to you that it was broken and in pieces, I could not explain, but I was told subsequently as to what it was.

MR RICHARD: So by the time you saw it, it was in pieces?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson with respect, I think this line of questioning doesn't take us anywhere.  The witness explained in detail yesterday that actually what happened was he was sent into the house, when he came back he was shown pieces of what was said to be a transmitter, and I'm not sure where my learned friend is leading by being repetitious unnecessarily.

CHAIRPERSON: Nor am I ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD: Well, on what basis can you confirm that it was a transmitter, other than the say-so of your commander?

MR KOOPEDI: The witness did explain that he was shown pieces of something he was told was a transmitter, he did not know whether it was a transmitter or not.

MR RICHARD: Did Mr Dube tell ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.
CHAIRPERSON
"He showed me a broken device and said that the deceased had been carrying a transmitter"

MR RICHARD: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD: What happened to the broken pieces?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't remember what happened to them.

MR RICHARD: How was Sicelo behaving at this stage, what was his demeanour, was he fearful, cheerful, worried?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: When I came back I found the situation changed, he was not as comfortable as he was in the morning.

MR RICHARD: Did your commander explain why he had smashed the device?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: He explained to me afterwards.

MR RICHARD: Then is it correct that you and Mr Dube had a discussion and it was then, while Mr Dhlomo was inside the house, that Mr Dube ordered you to execute Mr Dhlomo?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Did you discuss it and debate it or did he just give an express command, this will happen?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I thought I explained that yesterday, that we did briefly discuss it.  It was not just an absolute order, I had also had an input.  We talked briefly about it.

MR RICHARD: Well what was your input, what did you say?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know what you want me to say.  Are you referring as to whether I agreed or disagreed with the opinion or with that what he said?

CHAIRPERSON: You have just said: " I also had a input", and you are now being asked what you mean by that.