Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

CHAIRPERSON: This is personal knowledge which I'm asking you, if you don't know, say "I don't".  You were four when you entered, that is Jantjie, Jagga and Robertshaw, when you greeted them did you get the impression that they knew the other three?  That is getting into Lesotho.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believed they knew them, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: And they obviously knew you by your face?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Let me clarify that.  From the Lesotho side, those people knew us by face and they would, they knew us, then from the South African border some officials knew us by names.

MR LAX: Let me just put it in a simply way to you.  How many times in the seven months that you were a member of this unit, as you've told us, did you go into and out of Lesotho?  How many trips did you make to Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I went there several times, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Several times.  What do you mean by several times?  Was it twenty, was it a hundred, was it more than a hundred?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I would say I entered there several times, at times I would go there in my official capacity, at times I would go there in my personal capacity, so it will be difficult to estimate, but it's many times.

MR LAX: Just in terms of your duties, you've already told us you used to go - I mean, paragraph 10 says
"I sometimes went with Jagga and Jantjie to bars to visit there ..."
etcetera.  How many times did you go with them?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would not be able to recall, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Was it enough times for the people at the border to get to know who you were or at least know you by sight?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, we were known at the border gates.

MR LAX: And what were you known as?  Particularly on the Lesotho side.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Those who were border officials, they knew that we were members of the Police, even if they did not know which branch of the Police we were working.

MR LAX: And isn't it so that even if they knew you were abducting someone into South Africa, they wouldn't have done anything about it?  They wouldn't have asked you any questions, they would have just let you go through.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't have enough knowledge, Chairperson, I don't want to commit myself.

MR LAX: Well were you ever stopped taking someone out of Lesotho, when you were driving?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It did not happen, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Just one last thing, Chair, before we move on to this next thing.
	The last question Mr Visser put to you just before tea was that one of the reasons why you were guarding her, as far as you knew, was that you didn't know how reliable she was, but the fact of the matter is that you didn't know why you were guarding her, you didn't know anything about her.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, that is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Visser.

MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps before Mr Visser goes on, if I may be allowed, I need to hand over this document, hand it back or over, but before I do that I need to clarify it in my notes and I would indebted to get some assistance, I'm not sure what this is.  Is it a document that shows that this applicant was able to go in and out of Lesotho as he says he did?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) for six months.

MR KOOPEDI: If that is the case, Chairperson, I believe that we would need to have a document that was issued then, this document was only issued in 1999, and therefore I have a problem in classifying it as to what is it.

CHAIRPERSON: He said it's a specimen because it's got a document that shows that kind of stamp, but it is not the original.  In what you are saying, that we should have had a document that was used in 1987, but he said he just had a specimen.

MR KOOPEDI: This is a specimen?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, he wants to show us that even with the present document he has, the same stamp is used.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay Chairperson, I just needed to understand the purpose of this.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, he wanted just to give the Panel an indication of what kind of document he had then, because it doesn't differ from that.  Are you happy with that?

MR KOOPEDI: I understand, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Koopedi.  You may proceed, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.  I was just wondering whether for purposes of the record, I shouldn't just give a brief description of what those documents are, for in case it may become important, not that I can see it, but it will take only a second.  Perhaps if I could have it back.

MR LAX: Mr Visser, to save you time, the Chair's already done that, the Chair called it a passport, which is what it is.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, yes.  No, I don't intend to criticise the Chairperson at all, all I wanted to say Chairperson, is that there are in fact two stamps.  That's the first point.  The first stamp is one obviously stamped by the South African authorities and that is done, apparently, in terms of Section 6(2) and/or Section 35(2) of the Aliens Control Act 1991, that is Act 96/91.  I wanted to draw your attention to the fact, Chairperson, that there is no space for a name on this stamp, clearly because it is meant to go into a passport and the name of the person would appear from the passport.  There's only a space for conditions, which was left blank here.  The place was left blank, etcetera, so it would seem that you could enter Lesotho at any border post.
	From the South African side and into the South African side with that stamp, and the same goes for the Lesotho one, which does not specify any revision of any Act, but simply gives the dates and it is signed by, or it's proposed to be signed by the Director of Immigration, and it simply says that the entry and exists will be between the hours of 06H00 in the morning to 22H00 in the evening.  That's all I wanted to say Chairperson, for whatever that may be worth.  Could this be handed back to Mr Thulo please?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, certainly.  Mr Malindi, if you would under cross-examination require the document, you are free to ask Mr Thulo to hand it back to you.

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Mr Thulo, do you still have the passport that you used in December 1987 to enter Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I don't have it on my person.

MR VISSER: Do you have it at home?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't have it at home, Chairperson.  At the time when I applied for the new one, they gave the new one and took the old one.  So it's not within my control.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Can we then continue with the second person.  Were you once again given instructions to go and pick somebody else up in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Okay, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who was this person?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: The second person was Nomasonto Mashiya.

MR VISSER: On page 29D, you stated that
"I was given instructions to accompany Jantjie to Lesotho to go and pick ... Nomasonto Mashiya and her baby - to go and fetch them."
Did you know beforehand that she had a baby that she would bring with her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I did not have a knowledge that there was a baby involved.

MR VISSER: You only found this out later when you arrived in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson, when we arrived at Lesotho I noticed a baby.

MR VISSER: Can you just tell the Committee where did you drive, you and Jantjie.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We went to a place Qwading, that is Q-w-a-d-i-n-g.

MR VISSER: How far is that from where you picked up Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, it is a distance, I'm not able to estimate.

MR VISSER: Was it close or far?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would say they are neighbouring areas within Lesotho, those two villages.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Did you have an address to which you went?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you have the address or did Jantjie have the address?