Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

SANDRA MOSS: The police came to fetch us to give statements but they never did anything more, we were never taken to court for any court proceedings or anything like that.

YASMINE SOOKA: So you just gave one statement?

SANDRA MOSS: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Now, tell me - I forgot to ask Reuben but the policeman, Man Alleen, what is his real name?

SANDRA MOSS: I actually can't tell you,  I don't know but I know the one with glasses - I don't know his name but I know him.  I would be able to point him out.

YASMINE SOOKA: But both these policemen weren't strangers to you?

SANDRA MOSS: No.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: Reuben we've heard that you said in your evidence that your evidence of what happened that day wasn't accepted by the Attorney General and you've now said that you - you don't know whether the Commission accepts your version and your evidence because the evidence is now already been rejected by the Attorney General.
But I would like to just explain something to you and that is the Commission isn't bound by the Attorney Generals findings or any findings made by the police.  We do our own independent investigations of the cases that come before us and we try and obtain any relevant documents from the police or any other authorities but we are not bound by it and we do our own investigation.  So it's important to know exactly what the circumstances were during the events so that we can form our own views as to what to do with you - with your case.  So I'd like to ask you a few questions to clarify.  This incident took place in Douglas, is that correct?

REUBEN GALLANT: Yes, it took place in Douglas.

<UNKNOWN>: And that's where you lived?

REUBEN GALLANT: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now, the day before the shooting incident it seems as if there was an incident involving a policeman,  Steven Mbushwa, is that correct?

REUBEN GALLANT: Yes, that's correct Mbushwa.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you please explain to us what happened?

REUBEN GALLANT: Well as the organiser of the Youth League a Father Punja-Punja came to us and he had a complaint because he rented the little building in a women's backyard and this women evicted him - she told him to leave.  Now the problem was that he'd already paid his rent for the month ahead and the following month.  
So this women told the policemen to come and evict Punja-Punja and when we went to this women to try and find out why she'd evicted the Father and why she wasn't returning his rent, then she said no she wasn't going to speak to us.  She would only speak to Jessie Barnard.   So we went to Jessie Barnard to try and get him to come and tell the women to return  the man's rent and to allow him to stay.  But Barnard didn't want to speak to us and we went to his house and we came back with him.
Now, to get to this women's house, we had to pass the beer hall and when we passed behind the beer hall a policeman, Steve Mbushwa arrived on the scene and he wanted to disperse us.  And we were quite a sizeable group together and we were singing and walking passed the beer hall and then the sort of roughly intervene and tried to - to disperse us.  And some of us said  No, you can't do this, you must rather talk to us.  And that is when he started shooting at us and we - we threw stones at him and he ran away and we also ran away - we dispersed.  And Jessie Barnard - Steve Mbushwa then went home.

<UNKNOWN>: Was your brother also present during this particular incident?

REUBEN GALLANT: I can't remember, there were too many of us.  I can't tell you whether he was there or not.

<UNKNOWN>: And it was the very next day that the police arrived at your house, looking for Isak?

REUBEN GALLANT: Yes, according to their statement they were looking for both myself and for Isak but they actually went up to Isak and that is why I confronted them to try and find out why they were trying to arrest him.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you think that it had anything to do with the incident on the previous day?

REUBEN GALLANT: No, I don't really know, there was no violence.  It was just the policeman who started making trouble and then he was met with trouble.  That's all that happened.

<UNKNOWN>: You said that you asked the police at some stage why they were trying to arrest your brother.  Did they mention any reason?

REUBEN GALLANT: No, they had no warrants, nothing.

<UNKNOWN>: Eventually the police charged yourself as well along with some other people and your brother but you say that they weren't looking for you on that day.  They didn't arrive there to come and arrest you?

REUBEN GALLANT: No, you see I was part of the people's struggle and that's why I can't say that they weren't looking for me because according to their statement they were also looking for me.  According to their statement it says that they went to the Gallant household to try and arrest both Isak and Reuben.

<UNKNOWN>: Now, perhaps I can just mention something to you because we take all these facts into consideration.  We received a conflicting report from somebody - a member of the police regarding the complaints and the charges laid  against you.  On the one hand they said it was a robbery case made against you and on the other hand they said it was a kidnapping case made against you.  But - now what charge did they actually bring against you.

REUBEN GALLANT: Well, this charge of kidnapping.

<UNKNOWN>: Did they ever explain this kidnapping charge - did they explain to you who it was that you were supposed to have kidnapped?

REUBEN GALLANT: No, they didn't.

<UNKNOWN>: Why would they have mentioned a kidnapping charge?

REUBEN GALLANT: Well, we never kidnapped anything.  Jessie Barnard came with us to go and talk to the women, the landlord but at that stage we had the policemen guarding the houses.  Now Jessie Barnard worked for them first and then after the change in  Government then they became part of the SAPD.  
 Now - but the people regarded them as the bar policemen and that is why we went to Jessie Barnard because he had to come and speak to this woman, the landlord regarding this man she had evicted.  And that's why we went to him.

<UNKNOWN>: But now what - what is your comment on this charge of kidnapping.  Let us take them both because the police seem not to have made up their mind whether it was kidnapping or robbery.  What is your comment?   Is there any basis for any of these charges?

REUBEN GALLANT: No, these are trumped up charges - it's false.  We were - we were found not guilty on these charges.  It's actually deformation - these charges.

<UNKNOWN>: Did any witnesses testify against you in court to say that you kidnapped him?

REUBEN GALLANT: No, the policemen who came to court spoke such different stories gave such conflicting versions that the - the Magistrate couldn't find for the police.

<UNKNOWN>: It's a very confused version that the police gave.  Now a last point  as Commissioner Sooka explained to you.  The police alleged that the police acted in self-defence because you assaulted him but now how many policemen were there on that particular day - how many vans arrived at your house?

REUBEN GALLANT: There were three vans, there were about six policeman - no fewer than six.

<UNKNOWN>: Were they all armed?

REUBEN GALLANT: Yes, they were armed.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Reuben.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Did you ever file a civil claim against   either Venter or the Police General or the Minister of Police for your injuries?

REUBEN GALLANT: I did -  I only make a case against the police, that's all.  I didn't put any civil case in.

ADV NTSEBEZA: You can reply in Afrikaans.

REUBEN GALLANT: I only made a case against this policeman - this Venter, that's all I did.