Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-12-08

CHAIRPERSON: Without further ado, we shall proceed to hear the second matter for the day, and that is the application of Voice Morris Sambo.  This matter is part-heard.  Mr Wills, we are instructed that you are now appearing on behalf of Mr Sambo?  Can we get Mr Sambo to be brought in for purposes of conducting his application?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Madam Chair, I confirm that I have been instructed to appear on behalf of Mr Sambo and I - sorry my name is John Wills, Attorney from Pietermaritzburg for the record.  Madam Chair, I hereby bring an application to re-open the evidence of Mr Sambo on the basis of my instructions that he was not, he did not completely understand the nature of the proceedings on the last occasion, and further that there has been to my mind a material omission, in respect of which no evidence has been given in the sense that he also wishes to apply for amnesty relating to the same incident for the attempted murder of Mr O'Farrell.   For that purpose, Madam Chair, I request to re-open the evidence and call Mr Sambo.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we can make a ruling in respect of the application you have just moved, Mr Wills, may we just understand you properly on what you mean when you say that Mr Sambo did not understand the nature of these proceedings, as Mr Sambo was represented by Adv Rodney Black.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Madam Chair, Honourable Members, I am not in a position to comment on the discussions that were had between Mr Black and Mr Sambo, obviously I was not there at the time, but I can clearly state as a result of my consultations with Mr Sambo, that he wasn't aware of the implications of the Act.  It was clear to me that he didn't understand the proceedings and through my consultations, it was clear from the evidence, from the consultations that he had intended to kill Mr O'Farrell and I see no evidence of that whatsoever in the record which I have had the opportunity of perusing.  That is as far as I can take it.  I don't want to point fingers at anybody, but that is the factual position.  It is my submission that provided the applicant is prepared to fully disclose his involvement in this crime, and provided he can show that it is politically motivated, that that would be relevant for the consideration, any evidence in that nature would be relevant for your consideration, and I ask for this opportunity that he can, in order that he can further support his application with further evidence.  Clearly he has not understood the procedures and the purposes of the Act clearly, from my consultations.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection, before making a ruling, if we proceed to put certain questions to Mr Sambo in order to ventilate issues with regard to his non-comprehension of the nature and the extent of the proceedings as then conducted on his behalf, by Mr Rodney Black?

MR WILLS: I have no objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, an application has been made by Mr Wills to re-open Mr Sambo's application.  The reasons advanced being that Mr Sambo did not understand the nature of the proceedings when he last appeared before this panel, as a result of which no proper evidence was led before this Committee, on which we would be able to make a fair, just and equitable decision in terms of our founding Act.  What is your attitude as you are representing Mr O'Farrell?  Are you objecting to that application or not?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, my instructions are not to oppose the re-opening, but we will however deal with the evidence as it will be delivered by my learned friend.  Those are my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   We shall nevertheless, put certain questions to Mr Sambo on issues of clarity with regard to the application that is before us.    Mr Sambo, are you prepared to take an oath?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Now you can sit, you have been sworn in.   You will remember that we are still talking about your application, the one when you were represented by Mr Black, your Attorney is explaining to us that when you gave that evidence before this Committee, you didn't have a full information about the Act and the proceedings, therefore your evidence that you gave before this Committee earlier, does not go hand in hand with what you wanted to give, if only you knew the proceedings, is that so?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain to us how Mr Black explained to you about this Act that led you not to understand the proceedings of this Act?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I can explain.

CHAIRPERSON: You can proceed.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Mr Black didn't advise me properly about the proceedings of the Truth Commission and the requirements.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he didn't explain clearly to you, what do you mean?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: He didn't explain to me what exactly is required here, and my present Attorney has just explained to me.  I was happy immediately after Mr Black explained to me, because it was not so clear after I gave the evidence, that is why I wanted to come back.

CHAIRPERSON: After you gave evidence to this Committee, you met your Attorney and you requested to find another Attorney?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you do that, after how long?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I think two months ago, I am not certain.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say to you when you requested this to him?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Which Attorney, my present Attorney or Mr Black?

CHAIRPERSON: The one you requested for another Attorney?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I don't quite understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I should ask another question before I ask this question, when you showed that you were not satisfied with the previous Attorney, who did you speak to immediately after that?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Mr Nkosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you explain to Mr Nkosi the reasons why you were not satisfied?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you explain this to Mr Nkosi after you came before this Committee?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: After this Committee?   I explained to him I think a week later, I called him and I told him I was not happy.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it that Mr Black didn't explain to you that you are supposed to come here and tell the whole truth about Mr O'Farrell's injuries and the way the deceased died?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: He explained.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean Mr Black?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he explain to you?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: He explained that I should tell the whole truth about what happened on the 29th when this happened.  He said I must stick on that particular incident on that day, that was how it was.

CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to get clarity on what exactly it is that makes you think that you didn't give full evidence of your application.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: When I gave the evidence initially, I didn't quite understand that I was supposed to give evidence prior to the incident, evidence about incidents prior to the incident.   According to my knowledge, I still feel that some things I didn't tell this Committee, and therefore I would like to tell the Committee more.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sambo, if you don't quite understand my question, you mustn't answer.  You must ask me to repeat myself or to try and explain my question if you don't understand it, okay.  I have a problem the way you are explaining your problem to me.   In short, you are saying you want to give evidence because you were not satisfied about the way you gave evidence before?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: This reason of yours, it is not exactly the reason that your Attorney just gave us today.   Mr Wills just said to us when you gave evidence initially, you were not told and it was not explained to you about the Act of National Unity?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Now I think I do understand you.