Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

MR SITHOLE: At that point, as soon as I took the firearm from Magwaza I saw them approaching very closer now.  And I met with them right on that spot and the IFP people were behind, following me.  And I asked them if they were still on that matter, that issue and they started right at that moment to shoot and stone me and I also took out my firearm and I shot back.
Now there was this fight that erupted.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Sithole, what sort of firearm was it, do you know?

MR SITHOLE: I had an AK.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you say how many times you shot, how many rounds did you shoot?

MR SITHOLE: No I don't remember as to how many times I shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you shoot many rounds, or just one?

MR SITHOLE: No I did not shoot once, I think it was several times.  And I fled.  The person who fell on the ground then was one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Sithole.  Just before you move on Mr Claassen.  You say you were handed this AK-47 by Mr Magwaza and you shot.  Had you ever shot with an AK-47 before?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, I once shot with an AK, at home, shooting at the animals.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Sithole, just getting back here.  You said you were still in Mr Magwaza's house, just when you'd been given this weapon.  Can you approximate how far this group of approaching ANC members were from Mr Magwaza's house at that stage?

CHAIRPERSON: If you can indicate the distance in this room, or if you need more space than that you could indicate it outside.

MR SITHOLE: I think the distance would have been from that side, the other side of the road.

CHAIRPERSON: The other side of the road that's in front of the town hall.  I don't know what the legal representatives would agree at, but from where we are sitting to the door of the town hall would probably be about 25 paces, and then there's a parking lot and another little road.  Do you mean the main road, or where the cars are parking outside here?

MR SITHOLE: Right next to the doors.  The road right next to the doors.  Not the main road.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, perhaps the best thing would be if the legal representatives and the witness can just pop outside quickly and get that distance.  It might be important.  Do you mind?  Then you can agree between yourselves and estimated distance and I'm sure that we will rely on your estimation.

MS LOCKHAT: We've agreed that it's 35 paces.

AZHAR CACHALIA: May I just indicate Chair that what we have agreed is that from where you are to the entrance of this particular hall is approximately 35 paces. That's where he indicates the distance the was.  That from the entrance to the hall, to the end of the parking lot and the street is about 80 paces, and to the other side of the street is 100 paces.

MR CLAASSEN: That was indeed agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: So is he saying now that the distance that the nearest portion of this group of ANC people were to Magwaza's house was approximately 35 paces?

MR CLAASSEN: I believe that is what he indicated.  Mr Sithole could you just explain.  You state you saw these people.  Where were they headed?

MR SITHOLE: They had spears and running after the IFP people.

MR CLAASSEN: What exactly do you mean by, they were running after the IFP people?

MR SITHOLE: What I mean is, they were attacking the IFP people, because the IFP people were running away towards the river, running away from this group.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any of them armed with firearms?  You mentioned that you hear gunshots, but did you actually see any firearms.

MR SITHOLE: No I did not see that much, but they were shooting and I knew that the fire was from the them.  They were the ones who were shooting.  Especially it was at night I could not see exactly if they had firearms, or see their firearms with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you give an estimation as to the size of this group.  You know, approximately how many people would you say were in the group?  This is the ANC group.

MR SITHOLE: I think there were about 400.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Sithole, you indicated that you then fired several shots.  What happened right after that?

MR SITHOLE: They fled, as I said or indicated, after I started shooting.  I saw one of them falling on the ground, and I saw them running away with him.  We remained there, around Magwaza's house, and the police came.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Sithole.  You mentioned that Mr Magwaza handed you this AK-47.  Did you see any of your comrades, your compatriots, your IFP people having firearms?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, the one who was right next to me had a firearm, Mpongosi that is.  And Zwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether they shot?

MR SITHOLE: That much I don't know, if they shot or not, because I just heard the sound of gunshots through and through.

MR LAX: Through you Chair.  What firearms did they have?

CHAIRPERSON: Were they AK-47's or handguns, or rifles?  Can you just give a description of the firearms that Zwane and this other person had, that you saw.

MR SITHOLE: They had small ones.  I did not see as to what sort of firearms they were.

CHAIRPERSON: Handguns?  Pistols or revolvers?

INTERPRETER: The sizes the applicant is demonstrating.

CHAIRPERSON: He indicates about 15, 20 centimetre size firearm, so obviously a handgun.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole, you made mention now, that because it was dark you could see, I presume when you talk about fire.  What was the visibility like?

MR SITHOLE: Please repeat that question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was what was the visibility like at the time that this shooting took place?

MR SITHOLE: I saw fire.

CHAIRPERSON: The question, Mr Sithole, was.  You said that it was dark.  How far could you see?  What was the visibility like?  Were there electric lights around, or any other artificial lighting, was the full moon in the sky, or bright stars, or could you see far?  Just describe what the visibility was like at that time.

MR SITHOLE: It was not entirely dark as such.  It was dusk.  You could be able to see people that were near by or not too far away from you.

CHAIRPERSON: So that distance that you mentioned, that approximately 35 paces, you could still see the people quite easily?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you actually shot, you yourself shot at this group, was it still that same distance away or were you then closer to them or they closer to you?  When you actually pulled the trigger of your firearm.

MR SITHOLE: They were now in close proximity.

CHAIRPERSON: How far away?  Can you indicate in this room approximately how far away they were from you when you shot at them?  When you actually shot.

MR SITHOLE: I think they would have been the distance from the door or the passage, the hallway.

CHAIRPERSON: This door here that we can see?

MR SITHOLE: No, I mean the outside one.  Between the hallway and the outside doors.

CHAIRPERSON: So that's still that approximately 35 paces.

MR CLAASSEN: I think it might be a bit closers.  He says between the doors and the hallway.  Maybe 32.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, say approximately 30 paces but still not right next to each other.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole you made mention that you saw the ANC people chasing IFP supporters with spears.  Could you see any other visible armament?

MR SITHOLE: No, I could not see other weapons, except for the spears.  The one thing that I heard were gunshots.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I keep coming in, but, sorry Mr Claassen.  You've estimated the group, the ANC group, to be plus minus 400 people.  The group of IFP members, including yourself, that were at Magwaza's house, approximately how many people were in the IFP group?

MR SITHOLE: It could have been 20.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole you indicated that you fired shots and you saw a person falling, and they carried him away.  After the shooting incident, what happened then?