Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, I want to go back to another thing.  Did Mr Kondile sleep in the room where you were sleeping and where the interrogations took place or did he sleep in the cells?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He slept in a cell.

ADV DE JAGER: Always?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He never slept with us, it would be just the two of us, he would go back to his cell.

ADV DE JAGER: Every night?

GINOTRY DANSTER: All the time that I was there.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: And we already know that you were there all the time, now and then you would go to P.E. to fetch things but you would come back?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: So, this room occupied by you and Raath, was that in the single quarters or in the barracks?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That was an office.

MR BOOYENS: Well, it may have been used as an office but was it situation in the same part of the building that the barracks were or don't you know?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It was a police station building.

MR BOOYENS: Are there barracks at that police station?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Not according to my knowledge.

MR BOOYENS: Are there no policemen that stay on the premises?

GINOTRY DANSTER: They were working there, they were not staying there.

MR BOOYENS: When before Mr Kondile vanished did you speak to him for the last time?  How long before he vanished approximately?

GINOTRY DANSTER: The week before he left.

MR BOOYENS: And was he still co-operating with you people?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We would chat.

MR BOOYENS: Chat quite normally?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We would chat with him normally or ask him questions if we wanted to.

MR BOOYENS: And he would reply normally and chat to you normally as well?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He would go along with us because by then we had got the details that we required.

MR BOOYENS: No, I accept it was just a question of finalising a few things and getting clarity and so on but the man was - insofar as it's possible, on relatively good terms with you people, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] chatted normally, how much further can you take it?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, I think I'm satisfied with the answer.

GINOTRY DANSTER: (No English translation)

ADV DE JAGER: Can this be interpreted please?

INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I don't know what Mr Booyens is trying to say, could he clarify his question?

MR BOOYENS: I didn't ask a question, you volunteered something, what did you say?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was answering your question.

MR BOOYENS: Now, ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Carry on Mr Booyens.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Kondile ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'm not Kondile, my name is Danster.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Danster, how many times was Mr Kondile visited by the doctor to your recollection?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I saw that old man twice because we would give him tablets.

MR BOOYENS: That the old man had given you to give him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Ja, the question is  ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, the tablets were at the charge office and we'd got to the charge office and get the tablets to give to him.

MR BOOYENS: Now, let us deal with this special squad or the visit of Dirk Coetzee to be more direct.  Will you go to page 47 of Volume 1 please. Have you got it in front of you?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I don't have it.

MR BOOYENS: Maybe we can ask your counsel whether he would be so kind to make it available to you.  Have you got it?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Would the leader of evidence kindly supply him with a copy of Volume 1?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Jansen has once again ...[indistinct]

GINOTRY DANSTER: I've got one.

MR BOOYENS: The last paragraph on page 47 starts with the following
"I was informed late in his detention that there was an anti-terrorist squad coming from Pretoria"
Let's stop at that sentence.  What do you mean by: 
"late in his detention"
Does that mean nearly towards the end?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Can you try and put a time on that, a week, two weeks?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I can't put a time to that but it was before I parted with him.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, obviously.  Mr Danster, what I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think this happened such a long time ago and this statement was made very recently.

MR BOOYENS: That's the point Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what reliance you can place ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: Then he should be able to tell us if he said it in his statement, why he said it unless he was relying on memory or on something else.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when he said
"late"
...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: Late in his detention.
	Why do you say - if you say:
"late in his detention"
It means shortly before his release - before he vanished.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Before arrangements were made for him to go to Komatiepoort.

MR BOOYENS: And you say at - you continue to say
"At one stage this happened, two white officers arrived, Kondile was handcuffed to a bed after a severe round of torture"
That's what your statements say.

CHAIRPERSON: Look at page 48.

GINOTRY DANSTER: He was tied to the bed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR BOOYENS: You knew Mr van Rensburg, why not mention that he was the other one?

GINOTRY DANSTER: What do you mean?

MR BOOYENS: Exactly what I am saying.  Two white officers, the one being van Rensburg and the other one that you later recognised as Dirk Coetzee, why didn't you say - you see, the way this reads it sounds as if you recognised the one at some stage and the other one on this statement we never know who he is.  Why didn't you say that it was van Rensburg? - in your statement.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Dirk Coetzee came with Mr van Rensburg.

MR BOOYENS: That's not what I'm asking you.  Why didn't you say in your statement here that the man that you later recognised as Dirk Coetzee, arrived there with van Rensburg?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, why haven't you ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: You are going to put me in trouble, you're asking me as if you were there.  You were not part of this investigation, this is nonsense.

MR BOOYENS: Well, answer the nonsense.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Danster ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: The question really is, you've omitted to mention Mr van Rensburg being there with Mr Coetzee, is there any reason why you didn't mention Mr van Rensburg, that is the question.

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, there's no reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Well, if there is no reason then I would like to know - I would expect you to have said: "Dirk Coetzee came there with van Rensburg".

CHAIRPERSON: It also depends on who took the statement and the purpose for taking the statement you know, and the detail that was required from him at the time.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: It is common cause that van Rensburg was there.

MR BOOYENS: It's not.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not?

MR BOOYENS: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry.

MR BOOYENS: In fact van Rensburg's evidence was very clear that he never met Dirk Coetzee at Jeffrey's Bay Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry.

MR BOOYENS: So the purpose would have been to find out who these two people were - why this statement was taken.  The easiest thing in the world will be to say: "The other one I knew, it was Nick van Rensburg"?

CHAIRPERSON: You can use that as argument.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I can't answer that.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly tell me, when these two policemen arrived there, did Mr Kondile complain about being tortured?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, he never complained, I'll give you the reason why.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes?

GINOTRY DANSTER: When you interrogate a prisoner you are told that if you dare complain when an outsider comes in then you will be in trouble, we will ill-treat you.

ADV DE JAGER: Did Mr van Rensburg - if he was the one accompanying Mr Coetzee, ask him whether he was all right, whether everything was all right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: What do you mean, ask who?