Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us try and deal with a specific instance, in view of the answer that you gave to the Chairman, which your counsel says is not contradictory.  Did Mr Burger, Staal Burger, attend a meeting at any time together with other Regional Managers under your Chairmanship?  Yes or no?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, the only time when Mr Staal Burger met with other people was during training where persons who could meet and who could see him, were brought together.  Mr Staal Burger did not discuss his regional activities with everyone else.

GEORGE BIZOS: But did he not attend the meeting under your Chairmanship in the presence of other Regional Managers, yes or no?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, that question I cannot answer that specifically because, for example, if I may analyse the question to you, I would see that this is a very important point here.  Let us take for example Mr David Fourie, he was my assistant, or he was the Deputy Manager, but it could also be that because Mr David Fourie had to stand in for me if I had to go away, then he would be at a meeting with Mr Staal Burger, that could happen.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question put, well I know, the question put by Mr Bizos was, did you yourself personally ever attended a meeting, and by a meeting I'm sure Mr Bizos means not a sports meeting, or a training meeting, a meeting in an office, a business meeting, with other Regional Managers?  Was there an occasion where other Regional Managers together with Mr Burger and yourself were present?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: The example that I have just mentioned would be such an example where Mr David Fourie who was a Regional Manager of another region and I am present and Mr Staal Burger is there, Mr David Fourie who is another Regional Manager is there in his capacity as Deputy Manager of a project of such a specific meeting.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why do you choose to answer the question by example and you do not answer it directly?  Why don't you say yes or no, so that we can have some certainty and we can make submissions to the Committee on certain evidence and not examples and not references to documents.  Please answer the question directly.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot answer the question more directly.  After 12 or 13 years, I'm trying to think of possibilities and I am trying to answer.

GEORGE BIZOS: If that is what your state of mind was, why did you tell the Chairman that Mr Staal Burger did not know any of the other Regional Managers, clearly implying that he never attended such a meeting with other Managers present?  Why did you say that to the Chairman?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Because it was not normal that Mr Burger attended general meetings and Mr David Burger who was the Deputy Manager and Mr Fourie would have continued and on that basis, I answered the question.  To me, Chairperson, it is very logical.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know His Lordship Mr Justice Stegmann, and I'm going to read it into the record soon, described you and your colleagues as absolute experts in evasion.  Would you agree with that judgment of His Lordship, because we are going to argue that this is what you are busy doing now, a master of evasion?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I want it also taken up Chairperson, that I think it is nonsense what happens here now and if we look now what was said in the Webster incident I was proved correct.  What was said in the Harms incident, I was proved to be correct.  The previous government are trying to do footwork to get away from its responsibilities and anything is possible, so I am answering the question as I think of it and I am not answering what Mr Bizos wants to hear.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I won't argue with you any further, we will make submissions to the Committee in relation to this.  But now let us take Mr Christoffel Nel.  You've already told us that he was a member of the inner core.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: He was an Intelligence Officer.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now was he present when the proposal came to you that the then Mr Omar was to be eliminated?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot remember this, I do not know Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you had to make a decision on the information placed before you, didn't you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who would have been the best person to advise you as to how the information was gathered, what the information was, from whom it had been obtained, how reliable it was thought to be, other than Mr Nel?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There were many other Intelligence Officers.  Mr Nel, as the system functioned then, had the connection with the formal intelligence channel of the South African Defence Force and of Special Forces, so the Co-ordinator, Mr Christo Britz, was the person that would then speak to him and would confirm information.  There were not meetings and meetings held.  It could be that I spoke to Mr Chris Nel and I do not have a problem with this.  He was not necessarily present at the final planning, he only gave the information, but it could be that he gave it through Christo Britz.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was Mr David Fourie when the proposal came to you that Mr Omar was to be eliminated?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't think so, I don't know, but he wouldn't have been there, not normally.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Sorry, Mr Bizos.  Can you recall when the proposal was brought to you for the first time regarding the assassination of Mr Omar?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairperson, no, I cannot remember the specific incident.   Because region 6 was only one of the regions, our primary function was outside the Republic of South Africa, so for me it was in big group projects and this was just one project and I cannot remember the specific circumstances, but I can remember the structure and I can remember how the channels worked and according to this we functioned.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you say that Mr David Fourie was not there?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Because Mr Fourie was the Regional Manager of another region.  He was also the Regional Manager of Region one and because we worked in a cell structure, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: But I thought that this inner core was there in order to evaluate and plan the operation and that was the responsibility of the inner core.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, this is what you think, this is not necessarily correct what you're thinking.

GEORGE BIZOS: Further, was Mr Wouter Basson present in this inner ring when the proposal to eliminate Mr Omar came?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Basson was the Co-ordinator, so I would say yes.  Whether he was always present, I do not know, but he co-ordinated between the region and myself.

GEORGE BIZOS: So are you saying that Mr Wouter Basson was present when that proposal was made?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think he was there, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You only think, you're not prepared to commit yourself?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't care about committing myself, it is 11 years ago.  I do not know, Mr Chairperson, I accept because he was the Co-ordinator he had to be there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were there financial implications in the proposal of eliminating Mr Omar?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, there should have been a budget Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was Mr Theuns Kruger there in order to approve the expenditure that would have been incurred for the elimination of Mr Omar?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Theuns Kruger had nothing to do with any operations.  He worked from another premises and he could also not authorise it.  Not even I could authorise it.  The Chairperson authorised it and I was the second level that authorised finances.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but didn't he have to at least administer once the project was agreed to by the head of the CCB, didn't he have to administer the finance and wasn't his presence necessary?