Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I greet you Madam, I'm glad for this opportunity to meet you and the people that lost so much from this matter.  The fact or what you're saying, that we're not showing remorse or empathy - we are human beings, we are also sons to our fathers given birth to by our mothers.  I know that a person survives in this world or makes it because of the support of other people.  You perhaps look at me and think that I'm not showing remorse however, our families know us well - I know that people who ...[indistinct] closely with us in connection with this matter, they would tell you how much remorse we are experiencing.
	If we did not we would not be here even at this moment, this would show that we do not care about you, you can feel however you feel.  To show and to demonstrate that as the people we are we feel remorse, we are here to ask for forgiveness.  I know that forgiveness is not a small matter, no matter how small the offence.  However, if somebody's asking for forgiveness, forgiveness is forgiveness - you must know that if the person is asking you for forgiveness they mean it.  If we did not want to show remorse, we would not be here.  I don't know whether we've answered - I've answered the question.

MRS JANUARY: Thank you very.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I thank you Madam.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, any re-examination of this witness?

NORMAN ARENDSE: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV ARENDSE

JUDGE WILSON: You have told us that you were issued with the rifle grenade and were to fire it as a sign of withdrawal at the Heidelberg Tavern.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Had this happened on any other occasion?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What other incident, please elaborate.

JUDGE WILSON: Well you've told us haven't you - about other incidents you took part in?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No.

JUDGE WILSON: I may have been confused then.  So you took part in no other incidents, this was the only one.  Is that what you're telling
us?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I'm answering specifically about launching the grenade, that had not happened before.

JUDGE WILSON: Had you been told to do it before is what I want to know?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I was not - it was for this particular incident, it was an order in this incident that I'm supposed to withdraw in such a manner.

JUDGE WILSON: You hadn't been given such an order or instruction in the attack on the army camp or the police station, is that correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Now you've told us you emptied the magazine of your rifle inside the tavern and you then replaced it with a fresh magazine, is that correct?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And where was the blank cartridge in the second magazine?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The blank - both magazines had blank cartridges, the first bullet to enter would have been this blank.

JUDGE WILSON: So you only fired one cartridge out of the second magazine?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: From the second one I shot a blank but others emanated, I'm not sure of the number.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you fire other shots after the blank when you were standing at the doorway?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, Sir.  I was already leaving at the time when I was firing.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, where were you - what were you firing at?  If you were leaving and going out of the building, what were you firing at?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was shooting any living thing that was there.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but you have told us that you fired an extremely dangerous weapon - a rifle grenade, down the passageway away from you because you were close to the door and you could get out of the door before it exploded, do you remember giving us that evidence?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I remember.  Sir, let me clarify this for you, that rifle - I shot with the rifle grenade, as I shot there were bullets after I had shot with the rifle grenade,  this was when I was shouting withdrawal, it is not that I stood and shot again.

JUDGE WILSON: No, you were trying to get out I would imagine - away from the grenade, that is as I understood your evidence.  Isn't that so?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I'm not sure I'm understanding the question well.

JUDGE WILSON: When that grenade went off in a restricted space, it would cause a lot of damage wouldn't it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: That is so Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And you wouldn't want to be there?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Before the grenade explodes, it takes a number of seconds.  When it lands I have time - I know that it would injure me as well, this is why immediately after I launched it I moved back trying to leave.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, that's exactly what you said earlier and I believe you, I'm quite sure you wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible but what I'm suggesting to you is that that is not consistent with you standing there firing more shots.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There's something that is not clear to you Sir, I'm not saying that I launched the rifle grenade and then stood and watched it.  There were bullets that were shot after the blank that I'd shot, this - I was by the door at that time or by then.

ADV SANDI: Mr Madasi, let me put my question to you as follows, as you are sitting there today would you say you have any regrets, do you regret having followed instructions the way you described it this morning?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all I joined APLA voluntarily, I was not forced to do so.  I joined APLA because I could see the oppression of the AZANIAN people.  Whatever effort I made towards the struggle, I see it as having contributed to a battle fighting the oppressor.  As I said, no-one has the right to take somebody else's life The people that have lost their lives or the next of kin - as far as that is concerned, I am sorry. ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Madasi, I will ask you to ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Mr Sandi, please wait for the interpreter to finish.

ADV SANDI: I believe the interpreter has finished.  Would you say anything went wrong with this operation - very briefly, would you say a mistake happened somehow in this operation at Heidelberg Tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, as far as I'm concerned I did not see it.

ADV SANDI: Now let us talk about the time when you were driving from the point where you had taken this car - the Opel Record, approximately how many minutes did it take you to drive from the point where you confiscated this Opel Record to Heidelberg Tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I couldn't be sure how many minutes elapsed, I'm not sure.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any conversation in the car?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: In connection with what?

ADV SANDI: About anything or what you were about to do at the tavern.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all I would like to make it clear that we were singing in the car freedom songs - this is what our forefathers would do, they would sing singsongs of war when they're going to fight a battle.  I don't remember having a discussion in the car.  I don't know whether I've answered your question.

ADV SANDI: In other words, whilst you were in the vehicle you were not able to get any information about this tavern?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We went there obeying orders and under specific orders - an order is an order Sir, if you're going to be asking a whole lot of questions it means you have no confidence in the order that you have been given.  We could not question much, we were just obeying the order.

ADV SANDI: When you got involved in this operation in December 1993, what was you occupation?  What were you doing, where you working?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was not studying, I was just a member of AZANYO.

ADV SANDI: You said you left school after passing standard four, when was this?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I'm not sure Sir, but it was a long time ago.