Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions to put?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mrs Beyers, what time did you say you saw this bakkie opposite the road from you?

THERESA BEYERS: About 5H00 - just after 5H00, I can't give you an exact time because I don't know but it was after 5H00, we were going to a cocktail party.

MR PRINSLOO: You said in your evidence ...[inaudible] between half past 5H00 and 6H00.

CHAIRPERSON: No.

JUDGE WILSON: That's not what she said, she said 5H00 to 5H30.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon, thank you Mr Chairman.
	You say between 5H00 and 5H30, is that correct?

THERESA BEYERS: ...[inaudible]

MR PRINSLOO: For what distance did you follow that vehicle that you saw - this bakkie?

THERESA BEYERS: From Central Avenue to the motor-way.

MR PRINSLOO: How far is that?

THERESA BEYERS: I've no idea, a couple of blocks.

MR PRINSLOO: And if I put it to you that this year - on the 12th of July 1997, the sun set at 17H32, would it be more or less the time that the sun was setting at that stage?

THERESA BEYERS: I have no idea, but it was light.

MR PRINSLOO: So, if the sun did set at approximately that time on the 12th of July 1992, then would it have been just before sunset or after sunset?

THERESA BEYERS: It was before sunset.

MR PRINSLOO: If you say: "Just before sunset", can you be more specific, where was the sun at that stage?

THERESA BEYERS: I really have no idea, I have no idea, but it was light.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have your vehicle lights on at that stage?

THERESA BEYERS: No.

MR PRINSLOO: You do remember that?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: How come you remember such detail?

THERESA BEYERS: Because when it's light, I don't put my car lights on.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, Mrs Beyers, you are aware that when Mr Walus and Mr Derby-Lewis and his wife were charged with the murder of Mr Chris Hani, there was also allegations made of a list of people which included the President, Mr Mandela, are you aware of that?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And despite that, you didn't go to the police and tell them you saw Mr Walus at the President's house?

THERESA BEYERS: I've already said that.

MR PRINSLOO: But why didn't you go, you knew that was vital evidence?

THERESA BEYERS: I don't know why I didn't go to the police.

MR PRINSLOO: Mrs Beyers, who did you speak to at the President's house, to whom did you report?

THERESA BEYERS: I spoke to his housekeeper who alerted the guards.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon?

THERESA BEYERS: To the housekeeper who alerted the guards.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was the name of the housekeeper?

THERESA BEYERS: Mrs Chrissie Fortuin.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you give her a description of the person you saw?

THERESA BEYERS: No, I didn't.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you give a description of the vehicle you saw?

THERESA BEYERS: No, I didn't - yes, I did, I said there was a white bakkie.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that all you said?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: No other description other than being a white bakkie?

THERESA BEYERS: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Nothing about no number plates?

THERESA BEYERS: It wasn't relevant at the time, it was just a suspicious vehicle that was on the pavement.

MR PRINSLOO: The question is Mrs Beyers: "No other detail besides the fact that it was a white bakkie"?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And you say you identified Mr Walus in a newspaper, is that correct?

THERESA BEYERS: That's correct, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Which newspaper was that?

THERESA BEYERS: I can't remember.

MR PRINSLOO: You cannot recall that

THERESA BEYERS: It could have been The Star, Citizen, I have no idea.

MR PRINSLOO: Did somebody point it out to you or did you see it of your accord or did you ...[intervention]

THERESA BEYERS: I saw it of my own accord.

MR PRINSLOO: When was that Mrs Beyers?

THERESA BEYERS: I also can't remember a date but it was soon after Mr Hani was assassinated.

MR PRINSLOO: And have you still got that newspaper?

THERESA BEYERS: No, I haven't.

MR PRINSLOO: But you can't - can you say what photo of Mr Walus you saw?

THERESA BEYERS: No, I can't.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it a full photo, just a face or what?

THERESA BEYERS: I really can't remember, it must have been a face for me to have recognised him.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you recognise it from the side or from the front or what Mrs Beyers?

THERESA BEYERS: I really can't remember.

MR PRINSLOO: Are there any outstanding features by which you were able to identify Mr Walus when you saw him on that particular which you allege you saw him?

THERESA BEYERS: I think Mr Walus has a distinctive face.

MR PRINSLOO: Distinctive in what sense Mrs Beyers?

THERESA BEYERS: ...[indistinct]

MR PRINSLOO: You're now looking at him, at that stage ...[intervention]

THERESA BEYERS: I am looking at him, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, tell the Committee please.

THERESA BEYERS: Possibly his profile which is what I saw his face on - profile.

MR PRINSLOO: What you saw on the 12th of July 1992 and then you were able - in a newspaper after the 10th of April 1993, to identify the same person?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And you say you spoke to the President, Mr Mandela a couple of months after Mr Hani's death?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes, I'm not exactly sure when it was but it was after Mr Hani's death.

MR PRINSLOO: But if I recall correctly - I don't want to misquote you, did you say it was a couple of months after Mr Hani's death?

THERESA BEYERS: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: When you say: "It's a couple of  months", what do you mean by that?

THERESA BEYERS: Six weeks, eight weeks, five weeks - a couple of months.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did you say to Mr Mandela?

THERESA BEYERS: It was in passing that ...[intervention]

MR PRINSLOO: No, but what did you say to him?

THERESA BEYERS: That there was a bakkie that was parked on his - our pavement, watching his house on the 12th of July.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that all you said to him?

THERESA BEYERS: No, probably a lot more but that was the basis of the thing and that we - it was with Mr Walus.

MR PRINSLOO: Pardon?

THERESA BEYERS: That it was Mr Walus.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Walus?

THERESA BEYERS: In the bakkie, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was the President's reaction to you with regard to that?

THERESA BEYERS: He didn't say - oh, I see.

MR PRINSLOO: Is that all?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: He didn't ask you where the bakkie was precisely parked or what the bakkie did?

THERESA BEYERS: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Nothing of the sort?

THERESA BEYERS: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, Mrs Beyers, you are aware that the trial of these three accused - at the time, took in October 1993?

THERESA BEYERS: Yes, I am.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it prior or subsequent to the trial that you told the President, Mr Mandela - with regard to this incident?

THERESA BEYERS: It must have been before.

MR PRINSLOO: Beforehand?

THERESA BEYERS: No, no, no, I don't know - no, it was before, it was before the trial.

MR PRINSLOO: You appear to be unsure of yourself Mrs Beyers?

THERESA BEYERS: It was before the trial.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon?

THERESA BEYERS: It was before the trial.

MR PRINSLOO: But why were you hesitant about this now?

THERESA BEYERS: Because I had to think.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there anything that caused you not to be sure?

JUDGE WILSON: Well, is there anything that causes you to be sure it was before the trial?
...[Tape blank]

THERESA BEYERS: ...[inaudible] after the trial obviously we read a lot - I read a lot more about Mr Hani and Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR PRINSLOO: ...[inaudible] - I beg your pardon, subsequent to the trial Mrs Beyers that you read a lot about them or before?

THERESA BEYERS: I read about both of them before the trial and then after the trial but it certainly was before the trial that I spoke to the President.