Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  Mr Wills who is representing certain of the applicants has asked to be excused from portion of this morning's session, together with one of his clients, Mr Ndlovu.  Yesterday we concluded the evidence of Mr Hlongwane, and this morning I believe we'll be commencing with the evidence of Mr Dlamini, is that not so Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: That is so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Mr Stewart you can ...

MR STEWART: I call Mr David Zwele Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: (Duly sworn in, states)

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Dlamini you gave evidence previously ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Dlamini, just for purposes of the record is your name David Zwele Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini you gave evidence at an earlier sitting of these hearings in Richards Bay, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: At that hearing you dealt with, amongst other things, your training in the Caprivi and the various incidents in which you were involved in the eSikhawini area, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: So Mr Dlamini in your evidence today we will focus on your involvement in this area where we sit today, in the Mpumalanga/Hammarsdale area. Is it right Mr Dlamini that you were born and lived for the first 12 years of your life in the Pietermaritzburg area, where after you moved to Mpumalanga with your family?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: And that during your period of schooling at Pezulu High School between 1981 and 1984 you joined and became a member of the Inkatha Youth League in this area, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Now at that time did you know Mr Zakele Nkeshle?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I know him..

MR STEWART: How did you first come to know him?

MR DLAMINI: Mr Zakele Nkeshle was a prominent person in the Mpumalanga Township.  He was a central committee member of the IFP.  That is how I got to know him, and sometimes in schools in Kwa-Zulu Natal Inkatha was a school subject.  Therefore he used to visit schools.  That is how I got to know him.

MR STEWART: And did this Mr Nkeshle encourage you in your activities in the Inkatha Youth League?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that's correct.

MR STEWART: You mention in your application affidavit that a power struggle developed between the Youth Leagues aligned to the UDF and the Inkatha Youth League, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: What was the nature of this struggle?

MR DLAMINI: The struggle between the IFP and the UDF was brought about because of a certain person called Marshall, who used to remove children from school.  This led to conflict and Mr Zakele Nkeshle used to try to get the children back to school.  That is how the conflict began.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, what was the nature of the conflict, did it involve fighting, and if so, what kind of fighting?

MR DLAMINI: We used to stab each other using bush knives, but at that time we did not use guns.

MR STEWART: Did the local Inkatha leadership know that these were the activities that you and others were involved in?

MR DLAMINI: Yes they did know, for example Mr Nkeshle.  They all knew.

MR STEWART: You've mentioned Mr Nkeshle, are there others who were in the leadership in this area at that time who knew?

MR DLAMINI: Even though there were, but I've forgotten their names.

MR STEWART: And what attitude did they take to you're activities?

MR DLAMINI: They were pleased about this because at the time we were fighting against the UDF.

MR STEWART: Now there came a time, and you've given evidence on this previously, that you became interested in joining the Kwa-Zulu Police Force and that you were taken to Ulundi ostensibly to undergo police training, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: But from there you were taken to what you subsequently learnt was the Caprivi, and you were trained there, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: You've heard the evidence of Mr Khumalo two days ago dealing with the nature of the training there, do you disagree in any way with the evidence that he gave?

MR DLAMINI: I do not disagree with anything that he said.

MR STEWART: Mr Khumalo told us about 4 groups that were formed in the advanced stage of the training, and he mentioned that he was in the offensive or counter-intelligence group.  Which group were you in Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: I was put in the offensive group.

MR STEWART: And is it right that in that group you were trained in the use of various firearms, in various offensive tactics such as house-clearance and penetration and you were also trained in the use of explosives?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: By the time you finished your training in the Caprivi, what idea did you have as to what you must do with that training, what was the purpose of the training, and your understanding?

MR DLAMINI: As the time went on as we were in the Caprivi area, it became obvious that we were not being trained as policemen as we had been told when our homes.  It was clear that we were becoming soldiers of the IFP;  we will return to Kwa-Zulu to fight against the UDF.  That is what I thought of at the time.

MR STEWART: After returning from the Caprivi, is it right that at some stage you were also sent for training in Venda?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: What were you trained to do in that training?

MR DLAMINI: I returned from Caprivi, spent some time at home and then I was sent to Venda where I received further training.  The training that I received at Venda was about torturing;  obtaining information from people;  how to obtain such information; what methods you can use to obtain information from people, and also how to stab a person, where to stab him.

MR STEWART: Who was with you and also being trained at that time in Venda?

MR DLAMINI: There was a white person known as JP, who was an instructor.

MR STEWART: Let me clarify - I'll come to who your instructor was in a minute.  What I'm asking you is, who else was with you that was also being trained?

MR DLAMINI: There were others, I think we were about 50 to 100.

MR STEWART: Were they also people who had been trained in the Caprivi?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.  The entire offensive group was there.

MR STEWART: Now you've mentioned that your instructor was a white man called JP.  Is that JP Opperman?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: And are you aware if that's the JP Opperman who was the officer of Military Intelligence who gave evidence in the trial of Peter and others?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: During your training in the Caprivi and in Venda, did you receive any political training or indoctrination?

MR DLAMINI: Yes there was, and that all that we were doing we were going to use to fight the ANC and the UDF.  The training that we underwent was supposed to help us in fighting against the UDF and the ANC.

MR STEWART: Now for the assistance of the Committee, I'm now at paragraph 17 on page 382.  Mr Dlamini you say in your application that you were informed by MZ Khumalo and Mudla Induna that you were to report to the Mpumalanga Police Station, this was obviously after your return from Venda.  Is this correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: Were you at that time proper members of the Kwa-Zulu Police Force?

MR DLAMINI: No, at that time we had just undergone training at Caprivi and Venda.  When we arrived the police station had as yet not been built, and when we came here to the Mpumalanga area, we worked under ...(indistinct) Makateni.  At that time the police used offices in the area .

CHAIRPERSON: What year was that you came to report here Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: 1987.

MR STEWART: Were you provided with appointment certificates of the Kwa-Zulu Police?