Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-23

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I will like to explain once again, that  if this was a revenge attack, we would have attacked the Policeman who had killed him.  The problem with Ndlandhla was that we had learned that he was an informer.  He would have been killed for the reason that he was an informer.
	Ndlandhla was going to be questioned and from ...

MR LAX: That is fine, we have heard that already.

MR MSANI: My other question is, how do you determine that a person is an informer because you should have proof that this person is an informer, and he has been responsible for information on one or two or three people?

CHAIRPERSON: ... Mr Msani, he has explained it.  He said that they didn't, he said they had a rumour that he was an informer, and they weren't sure themselves, and they went to speak to him, and then when his reaction of trying to get away, when the deceased tried to get away, that in their minds, made them believe that he was an informer.
	They didn't have any proof at all, on his own testimony.

MR MSANI: Okay.  In 1990, 1991 there were structures present at kwaMakutha.  Why, if there was a problem did you not approach the Chairperson of the Peace Committee, a certain pastor?
	Secondly, ...

MR LAX: Let him answer one at a time, otherwise it gets too complicated.  The question is why didn't you approach the Chairperson of the Peace Structure, one Mfundisi, I am not sure who?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I am a little confused about the pastor, because I do not know him.

MR MSANI: You said there was no ANC leader when you discussed these matters.  The ANC does not have one leader, but a collective leadership.  There were people who were residing at kwaMakutha, who were ANC leaders.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: In that regard, you cannot compare me myself and yourself, with regards to the political knowledge that we have.
	What happened at kwaMakutha that effected us, we did not have any one to protect us.  The comrades would be killed, and we had to defend ourselves any way we could, and as I mentioned before, I did not have sufficient knowledge on the ANC.
	What I knew was that there was an ANC leader, that is Mr Mgadi and when he actually came to the area, we explained to him about Ndlandhla's death and we knew that after reporting the matter to him, that was all that we had to do.

MR MSANI: I would like to disagree with you on some things, like for instance the issuing of membership cards, ANC membership cards.  Who launched the ANC branch in kwaMakutha?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Although I do not remember who launched that branch, I knew about it.

MR MSANI: The person who launched that branch was Kenny Ndlovu.  Mr Ndlovu had been in the UDF leadership.  There is also an Attorney who used to work with people from kwaMakutha, Linda Zama.  That launching of the branch was a public affair, it happened at a stadium?

MR LAX: Mr Msani, it is quite clear from his evidence, and I really don't think you need to belabour the point, that he doesn't have a great deal of detailed knowledge about either the UDF of the ANC.
	I think if you want to put the point which I think you are trying to make, which is that whatever structure he thought he was part of, that certainly wasn't the UDF or the ANC, as you would understand it.
	I think that is the point you are making and maybe you need to put it to him just a bit directly, if that is the case.

MR MSANI: Yes, I want to suggest that there were criminal elements present, for instance I have Mduduzi's profile.  Mduduzi was hired by an Indian taxi driver to shoot someone, and this he did.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I do not have knowledge thereof, so I cannot agree or disagree with you.

MR MSANI: Secondly, they robbed a Policewoman of a firearm.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I know about that, it was common practice.

MR MSANI: He was also involved in the death of two people at Adam's mission, on the 27th of December 1990?  They had been stealing food.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I do not remember that.

MR MSANI: They used to loot food from Ketani's shop?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: What do you mean by looting?  I do not know about that either.

MR MSANI: You will also remember that he was one of the people who wanted to kill me, and you were also one of them?
	I used to drive a Golf and you stoned this Golf, but I was not in the car at the time.  You were one of the people who wanted to kill me.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I am confused, I do not know you.  That is the problem that I have, I am seeing your face for the very first time, and I wouldn't have wanted to kill you because I do not know you.

MR MSANI: It was common practice in kwaMakutha that people would be robbed and killed in Unit 1.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I would like to explain with regards to robberies.   It used to happen during the times of the violence, that sometimes furniture vehicles would be robbed.  Those vehicles for example, the Hyperama, for instance Hyperama truck was one robbed.
	This was explained as robbing from the Boers.  Sometimes a bread delivery van was also robbed and the community did not accept this, particularly elder people who did not approve.
	But most of the comrades engaged in this practice.  It did not only happen in kwaMakutha, but also in other townships.  This was something done as explained, terrorising the Boers.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Msani.  Mr Mchunu, do you have any re-examination?

MR MCHUNU: Just a few questions Mr Chairman.  Oh, no, Mr Chairman.

MR MCHUNU: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairman, I just want to clear the question of the killing.  Mr Ntuli, when you were stabbing the deceased, was it to restrain him from running away, or to restrain him from fighting you, or was it the implementation or the execution of a decision already taken to kill him?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Can I just explain how it came about that I stabbed him.

MR SIBANYONI: Very briefly.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: As I mentioned that when I approached the car, I asked him to reverse the car so that he could talk to the comrades, so that we could discuss this matter, and hear what he had to say.
	But because he tried to move the car and I was also hesitant because there was this rumour, he tried to move this car forward, and I did not know whether he was going to drive it to the police station, and if that happened, I would not have returned from the police station.
	I was then defending myself, trying to stop him from starting the car.  If he had listened and tried to talk to me, he may have survived, depending on what he had to say.  That is from the questions that were going to be asked, because it would sometimes happen that people will be questioned and if they are found guilty, they will be disciplined.

MR SIBANYONI: Shortly, in that stage when he was killed, it was not yet confirmed whether the rumours about him were correct?  Do you agree?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes, it was not really confirmed that he had indeed done it.

MR SIBANYONI: Lastly, it would appear that either you are protecting the people who participated in the killing, in other words, you are not telling us the whole truth, or are you saying you effected all those 25 wounds which it is alleged were found on his body?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I stabbed him many times, although I do not know just exactly how many times.  But because he tried to fight me, I stabbed him and he was bigger than me and older than me.  That is why I stabbed him many times.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying it could be 25 times?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: It could happen.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax?