Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-12

CHAIRPERSON: Today is the 12th day of February 1999.  We are commencing with our proceedings.  We have an application of Mr Julian Dion Plaatjies to consider but before proceeding to Mr Plaatjies' application we just wish to state for the record that yesterday we were busy with the application of Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Mkhawanazi was still being questioned by the Members of the Committee when we had to adjourn.  That application will stand down until next week on Tuesday, the date being the 16th February.
	Mr Leopeng, are you appearing for Mr Plaatjies?

MR LEOPENG: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you for the record just place yourself as the one representing Mr Plaatjies?

MR LEOPENG: Yes, I am appearing for Mr Plaatjies, my name is Advocate P M Leopeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: I'm Ms Thabete for the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to commence with your client's application Mr Leopeng?

MR LEOPENG: Yes Madame Chair, I'm prepared to start.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may proceed.

MR LEOPENG: Mr Plaatjies, you are before this Committee ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, how do you propose to conduct his application, are you going to lead oral evidence?

MR LEOPENG: I beg your pardon.  I wish to lead vive voce evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes in which case then we have to swear Mr Plaatjies in.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any documents to hand up to this Committee before you start with leading with Mr Plaatjies evidence in chief?

MR LEOPENG: Yes Madame Chair, I have prepared an affidavit which was not signed by the Commissioner of Oaths.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, your client can confirm.

MR LEOPENG: Yes, however I wish to beg leave to hand up that unsigned affidavit which has been signed and confirmed by the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we'll give it a number.  It will be

EXHIBIT B: .

MR LEOPENG: May I be permitted to proceed with leading?

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR LEOPENG: Mr Plaatjies, you are before this Committee to apply for amnesty for the acts which you committed on 15th January 1993 and at Westbury, Johannesburg, is that correct?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LEOPENG: Is it further correct that you are now serving a term of imprisonment at Medium C, Johannesburg Prison?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LEOPENG: Before your arrest and your sentence where were you residing?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Westbury.

MR LEOPENG: And before and during the commission of the said offences, to which political party did you belong?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: African National Congress.

MR LEOPENG: What was the position that you held within the branch within the African National Congress.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: An active member, an active supporter.

MR LEOPENG: And what experience did you encounter during your active participation as a supporter and member of the African National Congress at that stage?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: During the 1990's, the National Party, most of the white guys, they terrorised us, detained us, tortured us and so on and the end of that I became tired of them.  I started to join up with Mr Marx and Ashley Bashing.

MR LEOPENG: Just hold on, who was this Mr Ashley you are talking about?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: He told me he was an MK of the ANC and Mr Marx was his senior.

MR LEOPENG: Then what did you do from then?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: During that time of the period I started arranging illegal firearms because I see that the policemen were terrorising us, we armed ourselves as we were smuggling illegal firearms with some comrades from ...[indistinct]

MR LEOPENG: When you arranged these illegal firearms, on which instructions did you act?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: On behalf of Ashley Bashing and Mr Marx.

MR LEOPENG: So you acted if I understand you correctly, you acted on instructions from Ashley Bashing and Mr Marx?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LEOPENG: To which political parties did they belong or which position did they hold within that political organisation?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It was from the African National Congress.

MR LEOPENG: Now proceed from ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Which position, what position did they hold within the African National Congress?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I knew Mr Ashley Bashing was under Mr Marx, I couldn't say because he was just an MK member he told me.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you purported to act under their instructions what position did they hold?  Did you just take instructions because they were members of the African National Congress?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes as I said he ordered me as an MK so I obeyed his orders.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he belong to any particular structure that you would have at least considered appropriate for you to take instructions from Mr Marx and Bashing?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Because I couldn't say which structure he was under because that time I knew he was working, operating with people from Soweto, Mr Bashing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you yourself belong to any particular structure within the ANC?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said I was just an active supporter and member of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you say you were under instructions?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: That's right Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand what you mean.  You would be under instructions from a commander or from a superior that you believed you had a duty to take instructions from?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Mr Chair that time we were not actually involved like going for training and all those things, we were just doing it like generally.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1993?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes I never went for it.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Leopeng.

MR LEOPENG: So in other words you say you acted on instructions from Mr Ashley Bashing irrespective of whether you satisfied yourself was a commander of a particular structure, is that correct?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LEOPENG: Now what activities did you do as you were acting on instructions from Mr Bashing?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: During that time I was involved in gun running, I was involved in gun running.  At a time when I was involved in gun running ...[intervention]

MR LEOPENG: Hold on, were you involved in gun running?  How were you involved in gun running?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: We were arming ourselves because for the operation SAP or security branch police and National Party, the white dominium oppressed us, harassed us, that's how we got involved because we were sick and tired ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Mr Plaatjies, how do you understand gun running?  You used the term gun running, what do you mean?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: We used to go to Soweto from Meadowlands, we organised firearms, we brought in the arms ourselves.

MR LAX: Yes well how many firearms did you organise in this way?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Could remember that it was not more than three times because ...[intervention]

MR LAX: I'm not asking you how many times you went to Meadowlands, I'm saying how many firearms did you organise in this way?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Sometimes it was AK47's.

MR LAX: How many Mr Plaatjies, I'm not interested in sometimes this and sometimes that.  Give me a rough estimate.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I would say it was about more than 12.

MR LAX: More than 12 firearms?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LAX: And what did you do with the firearms.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: At the end of the day we armed ourselves, the others went to Ashley Bashing.

MR LAX: Who was ourselves?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It was me, Ashley Bashing, some other comrades.

MR LAX: Well, give us some names please?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It was Rashied Meyerus.

MR LAX: Ja?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Elton Johnson.

MR LAX: Is that it?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes I couldn't remember because we were involved with other guys from Soweto also, I couldn't remember their names, just nicknames.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you get these arms from?