Human Rights Violation Hearings — Tzaneen — 1997-04-10

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much, Mr Mthebule for that clear account and submission that your family has presented through you and I know that even though you've gone through that memorial service it's very difficult to accept the fact that your is, is dead and even if you do accept, you would like some tangible results.  And I think here, at least, there are some leads which the TRC could follow, because you mention a Joy Hayden and in your statement you also say, this was revealed by Olivia Forsyth.  Could you give us some idea who this Olivia Forsyth is ?

SAMUEL MTHEBULE: Thank you.  I am afraid that I have no idea of this Olivia Forsyth accept that my suspicion is that, let alone by getting a statement from me, one other statement was given by my younger sister out in Johannesburg so apparently that one, she is the one who has given the Commission that name.  Because the statement was taken from her, because it was her who was staying with him while he was still underground.

MS SEROKE: You also state that there are two children who were left by your brother.  ... (interrupted)

SAMUEL MTHEBULE: That's correct.

MS SEROKE: And you and your mom have been looking after these children.  I just want to find out, what did the ANC ever do in relation to these children ?

SAMUEL MTHEBULE: Not for now but what I can state before this Commission is that while he was supposedly still in exile, before the unbanning of the Liberation Movements, my mother used to get some financial support from individuals who were operating apparently from Holland and, but later on when things became clear, these individuals told us that they were acting as a front for the African National Congress.  They were used as a front in fear detection.  The ones I must say, really submit some assistance until, I think, 1989, but up to now there's, there has been nothing.

MS SEROKE: I've no further questions, Mr Mthebule accept that with all the information that we have here and the contacts that we have with the ANC, since they did make their submission to the TRC, maybe we could refer the matter back to our investigators and hopefully they might come with something following their investigations.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much, Mr Mthebule.  Your submission is very clear. That Ignatius did go into exile.  He did join the MK and that he was probably killed while coming back into the country so I don't really think that we need to ask you anymore questions except just to point out a few things to you.
 First is that you may be aware or you probably will be made aware of the fact that, that the, that the present government has now adopted and accepted in Parliament a special Pension Fund for ex-Liberation fighters, MK, Umkonto weSiswe, Apla as well as Azanla and that this fund, this pension fund, it's now been adopted by Parliament.  Money has been voted I think the, the figure that was mentioned  was three billion rand and that this money is available for those who were members of MK and I would imagine  that the survivors, the next of kin, particularly children and on, on this matter there is  a special department in Pretoria, headed up by a certain Mr Wentzel, Trevor Wentzel who's co-ordinating this and I would advise that you, that you as a family make contact with that special department or if you have any difficulties and you want us to assist in facilitating that, we certainly can, but it's been accepted that there should be a special pension fund for, for those who were members of MK as well as the other liberation movements.  Now with regard to, to your questions or your requests that you have put to us that you want as a family and we un, understand, a resolution of this matter.  There are two ways really that this matter hopefully can be resolved.  
 The first is that amnesty applications are still coming in  and we hope that through amnesty applications many of these issues will be resolved.  I'm sure that you have, you must have seen in the news that not that long ago some individuals came forward in connection with the disappearance and they've now accepted that they killed him and that they covered up his death of Stanza Bopape who was an activist in Mamelodi and that was also a case which had been unresolved for a very long time and through our investigations and through the amnesty process, we're now able to, to have a better idea of what actually happened.  So that's the one avenue and as I say, these applications are still coming in.  The closing date is the 10th of May of this year, 1997 for people still to apply for amnesty.  That's  one of the ways in which we hope many of these issues will be, will be cleared.  
 The second is, the powers which we as a Commission have to question people and in fact even to subpoena people to come before the Commission and answer our questions, and you have, in your statement there are certain names which you have mentioned, people who, who we now know actually were, had infiltrated the ANC, Olivia Forsyth is the one name in your statement and it has been established that she was actually an agent for the former government that infiltrated the ANC and we, we will be following up on these names and on these individuals in trying  to get some answers to, to, to these questions.  
 So we appreciate you coming forward and we will really make every effort to try and find these answers.  We appreciate the trust and confidence that you put in the Commission but we want to also say  that many such cases are coming before us.  That we have limited resources.  We do try to follow up so we would urge a little bit of patience on the part of your family.  I know this has been going on for a long time.  It's probably hard for you  to have patience when you've been waiting so long but we appeal to you and as soon as we are able to answer we certainly will.  Thank you and, and your  family.    Thank you very much.