Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

ADV PRIOR: You're not saying that it was him because he's dead now or did you maybe shoot on that occasion?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've said already, when he disembarked from that car angrily he shot at that kombi.  He is the only person who shot there.

ADV PRIOR: I'm not going to spend too much time on that matter, I'll move on.  Sorry, why were you at the Nahoon Dam turnoff at that stage?  Were you - oh sorry, I remember now, you were to attack the Da Gama bus ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, they were to attack the school bus.

CHAIRPERSON: They'd missed the Da Gama bus, they missed the school bus.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now the - at Mount Ruth you said, near a nursery you highjacked a taxi and instructed the driver to alight but because you could not drive the taxi you called him back.
	Now this instruction for him to alight, was that at gunpoint?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was indeed, he was forced to go out.

ADV PRIOR: So he was a reluctant person.  Did you not explain that you were APLA and this was part of the liberation of the country and that his vehicle was required?  Because we've heard evidence in other matters where APLA were involved, for example in the Heidelberg Tavern matter where the Opel Rekord motorcar that was taken from Guguletu, the owner of the vehicle was told that it was APLA and they required the vehicle for an operation and the vehicle would be returned or put in a place where he can recover it.
	 And that was seen to be in accordance with how APLA operated.  You never informed him, the owner of this taxi, that you were APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember whether he was told by the commander because when he was forced out of the car I was already outside of the car.

ADV PRIOR: And when you took him along with you to drive the vehicle, was a firearm, was it pointed at him while he was driving?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: At the time I was driving he was not more under, at gun point.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  Although in fairness to you, I think at page 56 of the bundle, page 8 of your affidavit you said
"You eventually let him go free and you gave him R20"
Was that for his petrol?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, we were paying him as we had used his car.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  Now at the Highgate ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Just one thing Mr Prior.
	There's something you said this morning that puzzled me, you said that this man wanted to give you his day's takings but you refused it, why would he want to do a thing like that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Because he was badly shaken.

MR LAX: So did he think that that might save him, if he gave you the money?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Before I forget, and Mr Chairman with your indulgence, I don't want to hop around unnecessarily but something has come to mind.
	I just want to refer back to Bahai and I want to go back to page 14(h) of the bundle, that is Mbambo's statement.  He indicated there that when he searched the white members as he put it, it got a sum of R60 or R70 from one of the white males and he got three motorcar keys from different people.  Are you aware of that, that money was taken as well?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember well, I cannot deny it.

ADV PRIOR: I want to just touch on the Highgate Hotel incident.  The vehicle that you proceeded to Highgate Hotel, was that the Sierra motorcar?  Is that the cream coloured Sierra motorcar?
	I have one set of photographs Mr Chairman, I apologise for that state of affairs but I can have copies made.  It is just for identification.
	You said that there was a station wagon.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, it was a car like this one.

ADV PRIOR: And that was taken from where?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: At a shebeen in Mdantsane.

ADV PRIOR: Mdantsane, alright.  And who drove that vehicle?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: ...[no English translation]

ADV PRIOR: Who drove the vehicle?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was driven by the late Luvuyo.

ADV PRIOR: Before I deal briefly with the incident itself, you said afterwards you took the vehicle to some place where you wiped off the fingerprints or cleaned the vehicle or dusted the vehicle for fingerprints or sorry, wiped the vehicle for fingerprints and you then left it there, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: I'm curious to find out, on the photographs it would seem that there are two bullet holes around the petrol tank of the vehicle, it seems to suggest that someone tried to shoot at the petrol tank or did in fact shoot at the petrol tank but obviously it didn't set alight, it didn't catch alight.  Do you know anything about that shooting at the vehicle in order to set it alight?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I do not know that.

ADV PRIOR: You said in your evidence that the decision to target the Highgate Hotel on that evening was because it was packed with white people unlike the station bar, I should presume had a few or much fewer people, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We did not ultimately get to the station bar, we turned around at Cambridge.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  Was the intention then to kill as many people as you could?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The intention was to kill those people who were inside.

ADV PRIOR: All of them if you could?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, all of them if we could.

ADV PRIOR: Were you aware that there was a discotheque on at the hotel on that occasion, on that evening?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We saw it when we were passing there, that's we turned back to go there.

ADV PRIOR: I just want to get the place where you fired the rifle grenade, do you agree that you later pointed out - I don't want to burden the record with photographs of pointings out, but the place where the rifle grenade struck was very close to the entrance to the discotheque where the people were dancing.  There's like a little passage that goes up, the rifle grenade struck to the left on the wall, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: Was you intention to get the rifle grenade through the doors?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say it was his intention for it to burst up against the lights that were hanging inside there and it would then shatter all over the people?

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, yes that's correct.  I had the - in my mind's eye that the lights on the roof of the hotel, okay.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, just one thing before you go on.
	You said you - just explain what you mean when you said you never got to the station bar, did you not drive past there?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, we were still going there but we turned back.

MR LAX: You see your statement says specifically, at 10.18 on page 57
"We first went past a bar at Highgate Hotel and thereafter East London station bar which had also identified as a target.  We returned to the Highgate Hotel"
This is your affidavit, that's what you say in your affidavit so can you explain this to us please?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It must be a mistake when the printing took place.

ADV SANDI: Mr Ncamazana, when you were on your way to the East London station bar, how far had you gone before you turned back to the Highgate Hotel?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: If I estimate it could be a distance of a 500 metres from the Highgate Hotel to the place where we turned back.

ADV SANDI: At what stage did you become aware that it would be necessary to attack Highgate Hotel and not the East London station bar as you had initially intended to do.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We had to choose between the two.  When we passed the Highgate Hotel we saw that it was full, that's when we took the decision that we might as well not go there, that is to East London station bar.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.
	Was it not possible to do both attacks on that evening?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We could not.

ADV PRIOR: I understand the rifle grenade did not go off because it wasn't armed, did you know how to arm a rifle grenade?   I think it's an M26 rifle grenade.