Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-20

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, you asked me that question yesterday, I said that what I will gain is the trust of the people that I have dismayed and that is all that I need.  Even the members of the families, the relatives, friends, I need forgiveness and to gain back the trust.

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Mbelo, what you have to gain by this amnesty application is indemnity for murdering seven people.  That is what you have to gain.  What do you say about that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Chairperson, I have come to ask for forgiveness for killing a man.

UNKNOWN: What has prompted you not or let me ask the question differently.  Why have you not, in ten years since this incident, asked for forgiveness?  Would you tell the Committee that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: There was no Truth and Reconciliation Committee or Amnesty Committee, it was only established lately.

UNKNOWN: Do I translate what you are saying to mean that you had nothing to gain?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Before the establishment of this Committee I did not see as to who was going to forgive me or who was I going to ask forgiveness from, because there was absolutely no mechanism for me to do that.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps you can listen to this proposition, Mr Mbelo.  Your Section 29 inquiry occurred on, approximately, the sixth of December last year, not so?  Approximately?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Were you confronted with evidence there about askaris who knew about what had happened on that day?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not remember well, it is possible that it happened.

UNKNOWN: You see, because I put it to you that it is a week later that you apply for amnesty.  What do you say about that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that there is no flood of conscience here, Mr Mbelo?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not agree with you, because there was a set date after which we could not ask for amnesty.  That is why I lodged my application a week thereafter.

UNKNOWN: I want to quote to you why you stayed at Vlakplaas and it has nothing to do with being compelled to, it has nothing to do with political motive. If you have a look at page 375 of your Section 29 statement, I will quote to you the following passage.  The question that is asked of you is,
"What was the attraction that was keeping you at Vlakplaas?  Just take some time to think and tell us what made you stay at Vlakplaas?",
and your answer, Mr Mbelo, is the following,
"To be honest, ...",
and I dare say you were being honest,
"... Vlakplaas was like a holiday resort.  There was not hard work involved, you were only, you were just kept there as an ordinary person.  There was enough time to drink alcohol, you had money all the time, it was like a holiday resort to us.  It was just the place of making money and having fun and being drunk all the time."
Now, Mr Mbelo, can you explain to the Committee where your political motivation comes from now?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I will explain it thus.  There was not much that was done at Vlakplaas.  If we do not have any missions or operations to take care of, there was absolutely nothing to do at Vlakplaas.  We remained at the farm just lazing around, but whenever there was work for us to do, we would go out to different places to complete or accomplish our missions.

UNKNOWN: The short answer is, Mr Mbelo, that despite the torture, the death, the cross-border raids, you regarded Vlakplaas as a holiday, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR B WILLIAMS

MS PATEL: May I suggest that we adjourn for tea?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MS PATEL: Would everyone please rise?
HEARING ADJOURNS

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: (Still under oath).
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL

MS PATEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Good afternoon Mr Mbelo, can you hear me?

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, the Tswana interpreter is not yet in the booth.  I do not know what is happening.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I cannot hear nothing.

INTERPRETER: The witness says he has got a problem hearing anything that is coming from the booth.  There seems to be a problem.  He says his headphone sets are making a lot of noise and he cannot pick up what is being said from the booth.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But is there a Tswana translator in the booth?

INTERPRETER: No, I was speaking Tswana to him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Okay.

INTERPRETER: But I am not a Tswana speaker.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you say something to him?

INTERPRETER: Yes, he says he can hear me, but I am, I sound very dim and low.  The headsets, headphone set is making a lot of noise.  He cannot pick up what is being said.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you request the technician to attend to him, please?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It is making noise.

INTERPRETER: He cannot pick up anything.

UNKNOWN: Hello, Mr Chairman, this headphones are defective.  There is something wrong with the ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think it is not only that.

CHAIRPERSON: It is now on channel three, I am told, not channel four.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That was channel three, Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: He cannot pick up any sound from the booth.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think there is something wrong with channel three.

INTERPRETER: The technician says he is going to fix the problem up.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

INTERPRETER: There is something wrong with the ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: With channel three.

INTERPRETER: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Because even with our microphones there is a serious interference.

INTERPRETER: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: We have been asked to adjourn and I have been told that there is something terribly wrong with the sound system.  We will adjourn for a few minutes, I hope.

MS PATEL: Would everyone please rise?
HEARING ADJOURNS

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: (Still under oath).
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL (cont)

MS PATEL: Mr Mbelo, can you hear me?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I can hear you clearly.

MS PATEL: Just to pick up on a few points, Mr Mbelo.  You stated under cross-examination that torture was one of the methods that was commonly used at Vlakplaas?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct, I said that.

MS PATEL: You said, further, that it was one of the most effective means of eliciting information from whoever was being tortured?  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is so.

MS PATEL: Could you briefly explain, not the methods of torture that were being used, but what was done with the information once it was gained from the parties after the torture had taken place?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: After getting the information from the person we used it to make some follow-ups and we would actually get whatever we want from that person.

MS PATEL: Would the information then be used in order to be processed through the proper judicial system, through lawful means in order to effect arrests and bring people to court?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, many a time it did happen like that.

MS PATEL: So, then, given what had happened in Guguletu on that morning, if these people were arrested information could surely then have been elicited from them in order for them to be brought to justice?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Just to move on to a different point.  When you had infiltrated this group, can you recall more or less whether any people that you had seen then were then subsequently part of the group that was killed?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I think so, it is like that.

MS PATEL: Did you at any stage relay this information to the subsequent infiltrators who went in, namely Mr Mbane and Mr Maluleka?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, I did not give Mr Maluleka or Mbane this information, but I forwarded it to Bellingan who was my Commander at that time, together with Mr Liebenberg.