Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: This is Exhibit A ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: The green book.

CHAIRPERSON: The three books are exhibits.  The annexure that was handed as the annexure of Mr Ismail's statement is an annexure.  It gets very complicated.

MR VISSER: I kept on telling myself that all day yesterday.  I still get confused.  Page 72 onwards Mr Chairman.
	Now may I just get clarity on this issue and I am simply on the point of trying to understand what exactly you are applying for.  Do you have the green book in front of you?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Page 72.  That starts with dates and target categories and it runs from 1960, from the 1960's before your time, and they profess to be, according to this document which I have in front of me, a list of MK operations.  Do you agree with that?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: It is a list of MK operations.

MR VISSER: In fairness to you Mr Ismail you did add in your evidence that it also includes incidents perpetrated, executed by special ops.  I think that's what you said.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: So we are to understand then that your reference to this particular exhibit is relevant insofar as it is includes first of all clearly on your evidence, operations of special ops?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson at all times we have stated that these lists may not be exhaustive.

MR VISSER: That's not my question to you.  I am asking whether this list includes, according to your evidence, includes operations of special ops?  That's what I am asking.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, but it may not include all of those operations.

MR VISSER: Yes I understand that.  We will come to that in a moment.  We will come to that in a moment.
	Would it be difficult now, as you sit there, to identify precisely the ones which are special ops operations as opposed to MK operations?  Or let me make it easy for you.  Is there a difference between MK operations and so-called special ops operations, is there a difference which you wish to draw?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Special operations operations Mr Chairperson are part of MK operations.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes.  Well that takes care of a lot of questions because then I misunderstood your evidence, because I was under the impression, clearly incorrectly so, that you sought to draw a distinction to say that for example in the case of the Church Street bomb that was a special ops operations.  MK didn't know anything about that; ANC didn't know anything about that.  Only - I am wrong with that am I not, I am clearly wrong if that is the impression I got from your evidence?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes that is....

MR VISSER: Thank you.  May I then put it this way and this is going to save a lot of time, whatever operations you as Mr Ismail executed in whatever form or manner or whatever operatives under you and under your command and directions did, all of that was part and parcel of the ANC struggle?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Alright.
	Now we will come to the issue which you were referring to just now.  You see if I may revert now to page 3.  In the third paragraph under questions 9 and 10 you say this.
"All acts carried out by me or those under my command and which fall within the ambit of the TRC Act..."
I suppose what you wanted to say was- which you are able to apply for amnesty for, I would imagine that is what you intend to say there.  
	Then you say -
"The list is not exhaustive but will aim to cover all those operations where injuries and deaths occurred".
Do you see that at page 3?  The second last paragraph.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mmmm....

MR VISSER: Am I wrong in my reference, I think it's the second last.

CHAIRPERSON: The second last paragraph of page 3.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: "Many of the operations are not listed".

MR VISSER: Yes those are the words I am looking for, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And also in the first paragraph under 9 and 10 it says
"The list is not exhaustive but will aim to cover all those operations where injuries or deaths occurred".

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now you see Mr Ismail I am a bit confused about this.  I suggest to you, with respect, that to say I apply for amnesty in regard to what operatives acting on my commands and instructions did because I gave the orders, but I don't really know and I can't tell you today Mr Chairman of all those operations.  There may be many that I don't even know about, and even so there may be some that I have forgotten about.  That's one thing.  Because what you are saying is, I sent people out into South Africa to commit acts of violence etc, execute operations.  That's one thing.
	But I have a problem, and I don't mind telling you that my problem is based on a reading of the Act, if you wish to say to the Chairman and the members of this Committee, I am applying for amnesty for acts which I personally executed which I can't remember. Now first of all this latter category that I am putting to you, is that part of your application?

MR POOE: Would my learned friend perhaps just identify the part of the application where that is said because I don't read the application to say that I apply for amnesty in relation to my conduct of which I have no recollection today.  The application seems to me to be quite clear and the two last paragraphs on page 3 it is said, in the second sentence of the second last paragraph
"I wish to apply for amnesty for all acts carried out by me or those under my command and which fall within the ambit of the Truth and Reconciliation Act.  Many of the operations are not listed as I cannot recall all those which were carried out under my command by various units over the years.  In addition to this many of the commands, orders and instructions were verbal given the extremely tight security situation within which we operated.
		Under these circumstances it was not always possible or desirable to keep written records.  
		I wish here to reiterate that I am applying for all acts, including those which may not appear in this application, which were committed by me and those under my command and which fell under the political authority, direction and leadership of the ANC and its armed wing, MK".
So I don't think that the witness has ever said that insofar as he seeks amnesty for things that he did himself he has no recollection of them.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman I don't understand the objection.  My learned friend has just read it to you.  "By me".

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you can just repeat your question Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ismail I don't intend to confuse you at all.  I am reading the words which you wrote in your application form.  Look at the last paragraph.
"I wish here to reiterate that I am applying for all acts, including those which may not appear in this application..."
now that's the general statement.  Now the sentence goes on to say -
"...which were committed by me".
Now let's stop there.  That's what I am talking about.

MR TRENGOVE: No but my learned friend he distorts the grammar of the sentence if he stops there.  The acts are not defined merely with reference to "acts committed by me", it is defined with reference to acts "committed by me and those under my command".  That is the category of acts that he refers to.

CHAIRPERSON: It was explained in the evidence Mr Visser that there were certain units who acted under the command of special operations who operated within the borders of the country who had a discretion to identify their own targets and execute those operations without prior reference to higher command.  Is that ...(intervention)

MR TRENGOVE: Yes certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: It includes that sort of thing as well.