Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

J A MKHWANAZI: I had the information that MDM structures were being attacked in Piet Retief and that is one of the reasons why I said he could go ahead and do anything he thought fit in order to quell the violence.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know Mr Keshwa?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, I don't.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you say Mr Gushu was under your command, you were his MK commander as you put it?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is so.

MS VAN DER WALT: So except for the self-defence unit that according to your testimony he had a free hand in, he could establish them, you gave no specific instruction to him in terms of these self-defence units, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, he had to see his way as to how he established them.

MS VAN DER WALT: And he had to receive instructions from you, from nobody else?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, he received instructions with regard to matters in which I was directly involved but with SDU's, because of security reasons I did not want to get involved with SDU's.  I was not involved in other structures.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss van der Walt are you nearly finished?

MS VAN DER WALT: He could instruct the self-defence units because he received instructions from you to establish them, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: I don't understand your question.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Gushu could give instructions to the self-defence units because he received the instruction from you to establish these self-defence units?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, he could control the self-defence unit when he established it, he was entitled to do so?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was no direct instruction from you to Gushu to shoot Mr Msibi and to rob him of his money?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, I would assume you do have?

MR HATTINGH: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We can do that at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

J A MKHWANAZI: (s.u.o.)

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.

J A MKHWANAZI: Mr Mkhwanazi, what is your present occupation?

J A MKHWANAZI: I'm working for the government.

MR HATTINGH: Just expand on that, in what department and in what capacity?

J A MKHWANAZI: South African Secret Services, VIP Protection.

MR HATTINGH: Could you just give us some indication as to what standard at school did you pass?

J A MKHWANAZI: I went as far as standard nine.

MR HATTINGH: When you initially made your application for amnesty, on the application form there is not a date or the year is not shown on the last page of the application, can you assist us and tell us in which year this application was made?

J A MKHWANAZI: I cannot remember the date but it's been a long time, in '96 I think.

CHAIRPERSON: The application was received in '97.  You will see the number of the front page.  I'm talking about his application itself.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I take it that is the reference number on the first page, thank you.
	At the time when your application was submitted, perhaps you could just tell us who completed this application form?

J A MKHWANAZI: It was Mohammed, my attorney.

MR HATTINGH: And where reference is made on page 5 of the application form under paragraph 12, it is noted
"See background statement"
Do you see that?

J A MKHWANAZI: Which paragraph?

MR HATTINGH: Paragraph 12 on page 5 of your application form.

MR PATEL: May I just interject for a moment Mr Chairman.  The witness will probably have the incorrect application form which I pointed out earlier, I will give him mine.

MR HATTINGH: You will note in paragraph 12 of your application form on page 5 it refers to
"See background statement"

J A MKHWANAZI: Will you please repeat your question?

MR HATTINGH: Your application for amnesty consists of seven pages, on page 5 thereof at the bottom under paragraph 12 it is noted
"See background statement"
Do you see that?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I can see that.

MR HATTINGH: The background statement that you're referring to in your application, is that the background statement that we find in the bundle of documents from pages 5 to and including page 8?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I think that's the one.

MR HATTINGH: Did you assist in preparing this background statement or how did it come about that it was included into your amnesty application?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, are you referring to page 75?

MR HATTINGH: No, Mr Chairman, I'm referring to page 5, 6 and 7 of the bundle of documents, Volume 1.  Just to confirm, what we see on pages 5, 6, 7 and 8 under the heading
"Background Statement"
... was that the background statement that was annexed to your initial application for amnesty?

J A MKHWANAZI: The statement is long and I therefore am not in the position to say now whether it is the one or not but I think it is the one.

MR HATTINGH: If I may just refer you also to page 4 of your application where you, under paragraphs (a) and (b), where requested to state your political objective sought to be achieved and your justification regarding such acts, you also referred to the Background Statement.  All I want to clarify is that in your application, the Background Statement that you refer to which you incorporated into your application, whether it was in fact the background statement that we find on pages 5, 6, 7 and 8 of the bundle of documents?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think so, if that is the statement that was read by Mndebele.

MR HATTINGH: Now the question is, did you assist in the preparation of the background statement or how did it come about that you incorporated it into your application for amnesty?

J A MKHWANAZI: This was prepared at one of the offices of the lawyers where I was present as well.

MR HATTINGH: Did you read it at the time when it was incorporated into your application form?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think so, that my attorney tried to interpret this to me.

MR HATTINGH: Are you not fluent or conversant with the English language?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: So you have a problem with English, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: My language is siZulu.

MR HATTINGH: The question is, do you have a problem with the English language, do you understand it, can you read it?

J A MKHWANAZI: I have already indicated that I am not fluent in the language.

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps you can then just in general tell us what value can we place on this background statement that was incorporated into your application form to show your political objectives and your justification for the acts.

J A MKHWANAZI: Would you please repeat?

MR HATTINGH: In your application form on pages 3, 4 and 5 as well as page 6, in answer to various questions on the application form you see
"Refer to Background Statement"
In the light of the problems that you have with the English language the question is, what value can be placed on the contents of this Background Statement to tell us what your vies were at the time when your application was submitted for amnesty?

J A MKHWANAZI: This Background Statement covers what situation prevailed at Ermelo at the time.  When we prepared this statement we did it together with other members who were applying, who are actually applying and trying to reflect upon what was prevailing at Ermelo at the time.

MR HATTINGH: I take it that in preparation for this hearing you once again went through this Background Statement, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think so.

MR HATTINGH: Did you or did you not?

J A MKHWANAZI: I said I think so.

MR HATTINGH: Is there anything in this particular Background Statement with which you would wish disassociated yourself with?  Anything that would be incorrect in this statement, this Background Statement?

J A MKHWANAZI: What's in the statement ...[intervention]