Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

XHOLILE TJABANE: I don't know him well.  I wouldn't be able to identify him, I just heard about his name.

ADV PRIOR: You see I'm referring to page 5 of the judgment again, that is in the Bisho High Court, where he had informed the Court that he had gone to this base - and I understand it's the Butterworth base, for the sole purpose of hiding from the police who were looking for him in respect of certain criminal offences.  Are you aware of that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I'm not aware of that.

ADV PRIOR: Well I want to just lead on from that.  I don't know, certainly it appears to my mind that if Mr Palapala who was a member of APLA and was familiar with that place or that camp, it seems to me that after the announcement that the armed struggle was over this base in Butterworth was used as a refuge, to escape the attentions of the police.   Would you go along with that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I wouldn't dispute or deny that.  I was not in the camp, I was giving instructions that there should be discipline in the camp.  I don't know how Palapala got into the camp.

ADV PRIOR: Yes.  You see the judgment goes on to say that in fact according to Palapala they had gone to East London to steal a car for the specific purpose of obtaining a car.  They had failed to obtain a car in Least London and during that time it was then said that there was a church in Mdantsane which was attended by white people and there a vehicle was obtained, after killing the three deceased.  Are you aware of that?  What I'm suggesting is that it seems from the judgment, that the intention of this group going to East London was to obtain a vehicle.

XHOLILE TJABANE: I'm not aware of that.

ADV PRIOR: Can I ask you this question.  Although you've answered that an attack on a church of this nature was in line with APLA policy, in fact the target of these attacks were basically white people, is that correct? - who represented the oppressor in the view of APLA, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Now my understanding is that Mr Ncamazana in particular as well as the others, TNT, and I think there was another one, Andile George alias Kid, had received substantial training as APLA combatants, is that right?

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Did a soldier, an APLA soldier have for example any discretion to assess on the ground the situation?  For example the order - let's use this as a hypothetical situation, the order was given to attack for example a place where the information is that white people will be there and they would be all adults for example, when they got there and they saw for example, it wasn't adults it was children, would they be able to, did they have a discretion for example, not to attack but to pull off or pull away from the attack?

XHOLILE TJABANE: It depended on the initiative of the field commander.  If he decides not to attack because of certain disadvantages, he wouldn't attack.

ADV PRIOR: You see in the Bahai Faith Church matter we have direct evidence that members of the congregation, in particular Mrs Manensa explained to the perpetrators, including Mr Ncamazana and Mr Mbambo, that the deceased were not boers, they were not white people, they were not settlers but they were Persians from Iran, they were people that were helping the community in Mdantsane.  In other words, that in my view or to my mind makes a great difference because now there's information from the community that these aren't the targets of your attack, legitimate targets.  How would you respond to that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I don't know whether they believed what this person was saying, but what I'm saying is the commander had a right to retreat if he received any information.  I think if they got that information from that particular person they were supposed to retreat and not continue with the operation.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Was that also part of the training, that they would be allowed, there was room for them to assess the situation and if it differed from what their planned mission was they could retreat, have I understood you correctly?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, they were trained in that manner.

ADV PRIOR: Now before you addressed your camp and your regional commander and your camp commander about the cessation of the armed struggle, am I correct in understanding that, did you get this information from Mr Letklapa Mpahlele or had you had discussions with him after receiving that information from your higher command?   Or did the information come from him?

XHOLILE TJABANE: The information that the armed struggle has been suspended?

ADV PRIOR: Yes.

XHOLILE TJABANE: There was a meeting in Umtata in January, that is where we were told that the armed struggle was suspended.  We were to prepare for the elections.

ADV PRIOR: Was Mr Letklapa Mpahlele present at that meeting in Butterworth, sorry Umtata?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, he was present.

ADV PRIOR: Now we've heard in the evidence that there was a place called Mama's Restaurant in Butterworth, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And a name Mama Matura, sorry Mtura(?), he was mentioned it would seem a go-between, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, there was that restaurant and Mama was under my structure in Butterworth.

ADV PRIOR: My understanding is that the units in the field could communicate with you for example, as the high commander, via Mtura, is that correct?  They could contact their commanders through the intervention of Mtura.  They could phone the restaurant and he would be able to pass on information or give them information, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: What was happening was that people would be accommodated there and then they would be taken to the camps when they arrive.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I'm just trying to understand for example, if the unit was in East London and there was a problem, how would they communicate, how were the lines, what were the lines of communication, what were the instructions, how would they be able to communicate with Butterworth? - yourself or the regional commander if there was a problem for example.

XHOLILE TJABANE: If they had a problem sometimes they would call there at that place.  They would call Mtura and Mtura would report to me that certain people are experiencing a problem and then the regional commander or the member of the security would then communicate back to them about that problem.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR NTONGA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair.
	Do you know in fact the very first incident that Mr Ncamazana mentioned when he started giving evidence was one relating to John Knox Bokwe teachers.  They were instructed by you to shoot a kombi carrying teachers who were going to the college, John Knox Bokwe College, do you know anything at all about that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I was not their commander.  They had a field commander, so I don't know about that.  The field commanders are supposed to be aware of those thing.

ADV GCABASHE: And at no stage were you given a report about that incident?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I didn't receive such a report that they have attacked those teachers.

ADV GCABASHE: You see that incident happened before the Bahai incident.  I'm not sure how long before but it was one that happened before the Bahai incident.  You know nothing about it?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Then after the Bahai incident the applicants have told us that they were further instructed by you at Mama's to go back for the other missions, that is Nahoon, Da Gama, Highgate.  Again you have just said you know nothing,  you did not meet with them at Mama's, you did not instruct them to go back?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I didn't give them such instructions.