Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.  The area I knew was vanderBijl Park next to Boipatong.

MS THABETHE: Was this the area that we have heard the applicants referring to as Kwamadala?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Did you, at any stage, reside at Kwamadala?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No, I do not know Kwamadala.  I've never even set my foot inside the yard.

MS THABETHE: The applicants have said that you did.  So is it your evidence that you never stayed there?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I never stayed in Kwamadala.  They're talking what they do not know.  I've never set my foot in Kwamadala.

MS THABETHE: We also heard yesterday about a person called Meme.  Do you know this person?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I know that person a lot.

MS THABETHE: How do you know her?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Meme was my friend.

MS THABETHE: We also heard evidence yesterday that in Meme's house there used to come IFP people and you'd also visit there.  What is your explanation, or what is your response to that?

ELSIE MOKOENA: My response is that Meme was my friend.  Yes, I did go to Meme's place, but I've never seen cars.

MS THABETHE: Is it not correct that you and Meme and your friends associated yourselves with the Ratesi ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Ratesi is the person's name.

MS THABETHE: Ratesi and IFP members?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not know Ratesi and his friends.  I've never met them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know him by sight, this Ratesi?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you heard about him?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  Did you belong to any political organisation?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.

MS THABETHE: Do you know, what was your relationship with Hapile Ndumo?

ELSIE MOKOENA: We were school mates and she was my friend.

MS THABETHE: Is it also correct that you spent a lot of time together?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: In the light of the evidence that you've given, why do you think then the applicant had targeted you and Hapile Ndumo?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They used to target girls, John Radebe and ...(indistinct).

MS THABETHE: What do you mean they used to target girls?  What did they used to do to girls?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They once took two girls in the township.

MS THABETHE: What did they do with those girls?  When they took those girls, what happened?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They took these girls and they went to sleep with them.  They were returned in the morning.

MS THABETHE: How do you know this?

ELSIE MOKOENA: One of the girls was my friend.

MS THABETHE: What was her name?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Sissy.

MR LAX: We need another mike there please.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members I object to this kind of evidence being adduced.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis Ms Mogwesi?

MS MOLOISANE: As it amounts to hearsay evidence the probative value of which will never be ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Well, from what has been said there is nothing to indicate that this is hearsay.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair the allegation of sleeping together, that's what the witness says.  She says John Radebe and others slept with those girls.  Those girls are the only persons or people who can come and testify to that effect, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well unless there is a clear indication that one of the girls who is alleged as being a relative of Ms Mokoena never told Ms Mokoena directly about this incident, so I will allow this line of question by Ms Thabethe because maybe she is still laying a basis for what is yet to come about how Ms Mokoena knows about this information.

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.  There is a problem with these microphones.

MS THABETHE: My question was, why do you think they targeted you, and you were still saying it's because they were always targeting girls, and you had been told by Sissy that they took them one night and slept with them.  Is that your evidence?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe that is not the evidence that is before us.  I don't think she had gone on to say she had been told by Sissy.

MS THABETHE: She did.

CHAIRPERSON: She did?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Well I would have been able to respond to Ms Molisane.  That's not hearsay evidence at all.  That's within her knowledge after having been told by a victim concerned.  That's what you have said.  You may therefore proceed.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Who did you say Sissy was?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Sissy was my friend.

MS THABETHE: How close was she to you?

ELSIE MOKOENA: She was my school mate as well.

MS THABETHE: You were still explaining why you think you were targeted by the applicants, that is Hapile Ndumo.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe shouldn't you exhaust this issue before you move to something else?  When was this information relayed to her by Sissy?

MS THABETHE: When was this information relayed to you?

ELSIE MOKOENA: She told me two days after they were taken.  Two days after they were taken.

MS THABETHE: Would you remember when this was?  Like in terms of years?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I remember the year.  It was in 1992.  Late 1992.

MS THABETHE: Don't you remember the month?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say it was winter, it was spring, if you say late 1992, was it spring or was it in summer?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It was towards December.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  That assists us a great deal.

MS THABETHE: Did she tell you where they took her to?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, she told me.

MS THABETHE: Where, where did they take her to?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They took them to Zone 12 extension.

MS THABETHE: Where, where in Zone 12?

ELSIE MOKOENA: At a certain house next to the Mpasani shopping complex.

MS THABETHE: And did she tell you who John Radebe was with?

ELSIE MOKOENA: She told me.

MS THABETHE: Who did she say he was with?

ELSIE MOKOENA: John was with Godfrey.

MS THABETHE: Anyone else?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Godfrey who?  Do you know the surname of Godfrey?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not know his surname.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did he stay?  Which zone in Sebokeng did Godfrey stay in?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He resided in Zone 12.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Can I move Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  My question is still why do you think you were targeted by the applicants, you and Hapile Ndumo?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not know why they targeted us.

MS THABETHE: But why do you think they targeted you, even though you don't know their reason?  Why do you think they targeted you?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want anything further from what she has already stated?

MS THABETHE: No I just wanted to clarify it because I asked her why, why, why was she targeted.  So I want her to tell me why does she think she was targeted, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't she already stated that she thought they had targeted her and her friend because she thought they wanted to rape her?

MS THABETHE: I didn't think she was saying that Madam Chair, but I can verify that.

MR LAX: Sorry, that was her earlier evidence, Ms Thabethe, and with regard to anything besides that she stated clearly she doesn't know.  What's the point of?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, I'll move on.  Thank you.  You say you knew Hapile Ndumo very well, is that correct?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Did she at any stage, to your knowledge, reside in an IFP area, that is at Madala Hostel?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.  I do not know.

MS THABETHE: How do you know this?

ELSIE MOKOENA: ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let's correct what the witness said.  Did you say you did not know that Hapile Ndumo ever stayed at Kwamadala Hostel, or that you know that she had never stayed at Kwamadala Hostel?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I know she never stayed in a hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: That's right, I just wanted.  I thought I heard you differently.

MS THABETHE: My question was, how do you know that she never resided in an IFP area?