Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: When she was giving her evidence in court the mother to the deceased said, other people were stabbing him and I came from wherever I came and I said they were not doing anything to him, and I took a knife from a person and
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I stabbed him the last wound.  That was the wound that made him fall and he died, that was her evidence.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And of course you did not agree with that?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes I did not agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that the mother of the deceased only arrived at the scene only some time after he had been attacked?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I do not know whether she arrived at the place of the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not see her there?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Not at all.

UNKNOWN: How many people participated in the attack on Nzimeni?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I won't be very specific with the number but there were many.

UNKNOWN: Were they all members of the, were they in the Executive or in the leadership of the Youth Congress?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Some were in the Executive and some were just ordinary members.

UNKNOWN: So it was a large group?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: It wasn't big, that large group.  It wasn't even more than 50, not even more than 30.

UNKNOWN: When Nzimeni was assaulted were you within a reasonable distance to have been able to stop the fight when he was initially assaulted?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I can say yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you then in his mother's house at that time?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: What time are you referring to Sir?

JUDGE WILSON: When they started assaulting him?  I understood you followed his mother into her house, and then
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you saw people in the lane.

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: That's not what I said.

JUDGE WILSON: Didn't you say the mother came back, she used the back entrance into the yard and I followed her?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I said so.

JUDGE WILSON: I believe the deceased was not there that he'd fled from the house.

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: That I mentioned.

JUDGE WILSON: You then said my house was nearby.  And the mother then went across yards, jumped across the fences. Do you remember telling us that?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Can I please repeat my statement? I didn't say that.

JUDGE WILSON: What did you say that she did there?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: What I said was, as we used the back entrance following the mother to the deceased, we used the street that I stay in and she got into the other yard and she jumped the fence, I don't know where she was going to, and as I was on the way I heard a noise and immediately I turned back, and that is when I saw what was happening.

JUDGE WILSON: They were attacking him in the lane?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't the deceased hiding in his mother's house and wasn't he taken from his mother's house into the street?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I do not know.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't that the evidence at the trial?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: That was the evidence I gave.

ADV DE JAGER: The evidence you gave.? Or who gave that evidence?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: It was not myself.
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ADV DE JAGER: But other people gave that evidence?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: If I remember well, it was other people giving the evidence.

ADV DE JAGER: And they said he was removed from his mother's house and then murdered outside?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I do not know whether they said that.

ADV DE JAGER: How far from his mother's house was he killed, could you point out or indicate to us?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: The taxi rank is situated here where I am and his mother's house was situated next to the stadium where the fence of the stadium begins.

ADV DE JAGER: I know it's difficult to sort of give distances but could you give us an estimate of the distance? Fifty yards, round about?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: It can be a hundred and twenty metres.

ADV DE JAGER: And was it in the street in front of his mother's house or at the back side of the house?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: They used the front side.

ADV DE JAGER: And is there a street going past his mother's house in the front leading to the taxi rank or what passage or corridor did you speak of?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Can I please explain to the Committee how the house was situated?  When you move from the taxi rank, you go up the street to the right direction as I'm sitting, and the back entrance to the deceased's house would be on the other side, it would be on Dingaan Street, but the people approached from Dingaan Street, using this passage that is leading from the taxi rank to Dingaan Street.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.

JUDGE WILSON: When you ran after Charles, you say you were the first person to reach him and you grabbed him and said,
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what are you boys doing, did you mean to injure him or hurt him in any way when you grabbed him?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: The intention was to take him to the
police.

JUDGE WILSON: And he called you, brother, then.  Is that so?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well you have told us that is what you effectively said during your trial that you only grabbed him and then next thing was that you pushed him into the furrow to save him.  When you grabbed him you must have realised that the comrades, that is all these people that were looking for him were angry.  Isn't that so?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I'm not sure.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What do you mean, you were there?  You were with them?  You are the person who should be in a position to can tell the mood of the comrades.  Why they went out looking for somebody.

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: As they were going along there were no signs of anger among the comrades at that moment.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you not realise that once you grab him emotions may run high and he might be assaulted?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: No I never did.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Isn't that what the court found? If you can't tell me say so but I'm trying to figure out why you could possibly have been convicted, on your version.  Didn't the Judge say to you when you caught this man, you realised the people were angry, you must have realised they were going to assault him, didn't the Judge say that?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: I don't remember clearly him saying that.
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I thought you would because that was quite a critical stage in your life.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you grabbed hold of Charles you knew that
the comrades carried arms.

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: And you must have known that they intended using those arms, did you not?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think they were going to do with these arms?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: We were always armed.  It was pangas and kerries and iron objects.  It was quite clear then that the situation in the location is not so conducive any more.

CHAIRPERSON: So you all walked around walking with these deadly instruments without any intention of doing anything wrong?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: We would use them if the need arises.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought people arm themselves because they know that the need has arisen for them to take arms.

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Is it correct that you were looking for Nzimeni, the deceased that morning when you went to the taxi rank?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Nzimeni and the group.

JUDGE WILSON: Nzimeni was the main target, he was the man who had thrown the bomb, the explosive?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: You wanted information from Charles and other members of the group as to where to find him? Is that so?

PATRICK UMKONTWANA: May you please repeat your question?
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JUDGE WILSON: You wanted to find out from Charles or from other members of the group where to find him, where he'd gone to, you thought he'd gone somewhere, didn't you?