Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-16

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: Firstly, it was because of that the deceased was a member - was a gang formed by the Police. So that that gang should be against the ANC. What happened, is that I was forced that as I was a member of the ANC, we formed a defence unit, because this gang was terrorising the community. The name of the gang was Noxies Gang. And again the other name was Bad Boys. We tried in many occasions as comrades to negotiate with the Police, that they should try to discourage this gang to continue with their activities. Then the Police didn't listen to the comrades.
	Therefore, myself, Benjamin Cholota, I formed a defence unit which will protect the community. The day before May, the 1st of May, we went searching. We did that search because of the call made by Chris Hani. That call was about disarming the enemy. So in my situation I regarded the Police to be the enemy, which was against the community of Tamahole. I led the unit on the 1st of May on a search, so that wherever we meet the Police, we are going to disarm them. Any member of the Police we will disarm them, and again also the members of the Bad Boys or the Noxies Gang. On that day we left from Section B at Mr Skosana. We targeted places like the taverns, because Tamohole was still a small township then. 
	In many instances when we were looking for targets, we would find them at the taverns, because there were no other recreational places. We left from Mr Skosana's house to go to a certain tavern called Radetsietsi(?) at B. When we arrived at Radetsietsi(?), we found other members of the defence unit working for us there, saying the Police are - the gangs are inside, and the Police. From there we left from Radetsietsi(?) to BJ. Where this incident happened. Where Mr Dinge died. 
	When we arrived at BJ I left those I was with behind. The members of the UDF of the defence unit who accompanied me, were eight to nine. Together with William Thoabala. When William Thoabala had just arrived from exile then. He was welcomed by many people when we arrived. Then I thought they will disturb our plan. Then I said to Thoabala he must stay behind, I will go inside and look what is happening inside. Entering inside, I met face to face with Plaatjies. Then I told myself that we have now met our target. I went to Plaatjies. I told him that comrades were waiting for him outside, they want to talk to him. He said to me he has nothing to say or he has nothing to do with the comrades. Then I hit him with a clap. From there the people who were with him, hit me with a bottle on the head. Then I went outside bleeding. 
	I met other comrades together with William Thoabala. Thoabala came to me, asked me what happened, because he saw me bleeding. Then I thought I will take time in explaining what happened. Then I went back to the tavern and said I should take him out so that how can we finish him off? 
	When I was just about to enter through the door, Phule Moalosi - Phule Moalosi was working at prison, he was a prison warder. He appeared when I was just about to enter. Then somebody shouted, saying here is a target. I held Phule with his shirt, knowing that he was one of the Police, because we were looking for guns. It may happen that he had a gun at that time. We together fell on the ground, because he was fighting. Whilst on the ground I heard a noise. That noise was showing that something was going to happen, because both of us we were on the ground. 
	That is then my younger brother was able to prevent the bottle which was going to hit me. When he blocked that bottle, I stood up and faced him. I end up seeing Thoabala and Moalosi standing up. We fought each other with fists, with the deceased at that time. We were fighting then. Then after that we were throwing each other with stones. 
	I took a brick and hit the deceased. He fell on the ground. Whilst he was on the ground, William Thoabala arrived. Then he said we should leave. 
	Then we left to Mrs Moloi's house where they washed my head. Whilst we were there then we asked each other where were the members of the defence unit. Nobody knew then. It was myself, my younger brother Fanie and William Thoabala. When we left at Mrs Moloi's house - we arrived at the morning in Mrs Moloi's house, around one o'clock. Mamma Moloi denied that we should leave the house, because she thought we are going to fight again. She kept us in the house up to nine o'clock. Then at nine o'clock I went to my home. 
	Then at home we heard that the police were looking for us. Then I said the police are looking for us about what? Then they said they are looking for us because of the death of Plaatjies. We were surprised. My father informed me that Lindi has been shot, and he has died at the shebeen. We were surprised after learning about the shooting, but I knew that I fought with Plaatjies, but nobody used a gun. Which means the gun was used after we left the scene. That is my evidence, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Mr Cholota, the full disclosure that you are making today, why didn't you make in the court of law?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I was not able to make this full disclosure, because it was known with the police that myself and William Thoabala were comrades. I would say it was known that William was just arrived from exile. We were arrested many times together with William, though we were not found guilty in those cases. We thought that if I would say as I say now, for the fact that I was a comrade, I would find a heavy sentence, heavier than the one I have.

UNKNOWN: Mr Thoabala, why do you consider your act as politically motivated?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: It is politically motivated because when I went out as a member of the self-defence unit, I wasn't doing that for my own benefit, I was doing it for the benefit of the community.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV TSHONGWENI

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Mongesi, I assume that since you are appearing for Mr Moalosi as well, I assume that you have satisfied yourself that there isn't going to be a conflict of interest, in particular around what happened at the scene, the initial scene at the tavern, et cetera, et cetera?

UNKNOWN: Thank you. According to my instructions and consultations, I did not detect any conflict.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You didn't detect a conflict at any level. I specifically referred to the scene around the tavern and so on, but you didn't detect any conflict at any level?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Any questions?

MS THABETHA: Yes, Mr Chair, two questions. Mr Cholota, why was the deceased your target?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: The deceased was our target because it appeared that he once killed a comrade, called Papi Qwaka, who was a teacher at Selegeli School. And the deceased was in cahoots with the gangs that I have just referred to.

JUDGE WILSON: Could you give us the names of the person he killed again, please?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: Papi Joseph Qwaka - it is Q-W-A-K-A.

MS THABETHA: Was the deceased convicted of the murder of Papi Joseph Qwaka or its information that you had that you killed him?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: I won't confirm his conviction because I heard this at the ANC office and Vuyo Ndabe was the person telling me this, he was the secretary for the TCR. Because I was not around to Mamole, most of the time I spent in Johannesburg and I normally went to report to the office and this is one of the reports I received on my arrival.

MS THABETHA: When you beat the deceased, what was your intention?

BENJAMIN CHOLOTA: The intention was to demonstrate if there were any other people who were like him, who were going to harass people like - just like his gang did. Such people were supposed to see that they are not supposed to do that at all.

MS THABETHA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHA