Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: What I'm trying to find out from you, to break it up in two sections then, it is correct that the only person who took statements from you - sorry - is it correct that Mongese only took one statement from you ever or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I remember correctly, Mongese came to Medium C and that is where I made my statement.

MR LOWIES: And you never thereafter saw him again, did you?  In your whole life?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I never saw him thereafter.

MR LOWIES: Now would you be able to tell us whether you know whether Mongese filled in any application on your behalf?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, do you know what an application is?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did say that I did not know it.

MR LOWIES: Now did he say to you listen I'm going to file an application on your behalf for amnesty?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he said he had come to take a statement with regards to Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: So where does he come from, did he say to you I'm from such and such an institution or what?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he did not explain that to me.

MR LOWIES: And right at the outset he said to you I'm here for Boipatong, is that your evidence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  I did not question him where he came from.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mongese come and see you of his own accord?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: You had no idea who sent him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not have knowledge thereof.

MR LOWIES: Sorry I may have interrupted you, may I proceed.  I'm sorry I must apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Bearing at mind at quarter past we have to wrap it up, we have to finish by quarter past 4.

MR LOWIES: I will do so Chair.
	But surely, when a man just arrives there out of the blue you would ask him what are you there for but he himself tendered the fact that he is here regarding events of Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes when he arrived in prison he enquired about me, he called for me and told me that he was from Johannesburg and he said I should provide him with information about what took place at Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: And you're quite sure that he introduced Boipatong, you didn't speak of Boipatong first?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I told you that Mongese arrived and he said that he was from Johannesburg and he wished to know about what happened at Boipatong at which time I told him.

MR LOWIES: Did you also talk to him regarding the drive by shootings at Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Which came up first, Sebokeng or Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I remember correctly, I think it was Sebokeng.  He questioned me about the Sebokeng incident first and then later on about the Boipatong incident.

MR LOWIES: And the impression that you got is he already knew that you were part of an attack in Boipatong, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say that he knew about it beforehand. ...(inaudible) for me, I'm just Nosenga, I cannot be in a position to claim that.

MR LOWIES: But you see the reason why I'm asking this is in paragraph 9 the date on which these incidents occurred is stated by you to be 1993.  That is page 2 Chairman, paragraph 9(ii).   How is this possible?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I stated before there may have been a problem with the interpretation.  I mentioned that these incidents happened in 1992, not 1993.

MR LOWIES: Now what interpretation, what language did he speak?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He spoke in English and there was an interpreter and the interpreter was a police officer.

MR LOWIES: So Mongese is not a Zulu.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know but I think the language is Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: What language did you speak to him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I spoke in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mongese?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He spoke in English and there was an interpreter through whom we communicated.

MR LOWIES: But are you not Xhosa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I'm not.

MR LOWIES: Whilst we're on this aspect pertaining to languages, I have a document here which I obtained from the police which states that when you did pointings out of the places where people were shot in the drive by shootings, spoke in Sotho and interpreter in the confession also interpreted from Sotho to Afrikaans?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  I speak Zulu because my father is Zulu and my mother is Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is that there are police documents amongst which there is a confession which indicates that you spoke through a Sotho speaking interpreter, you denied that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I spoke isiZulu.  I am Zulu and I speak isiZulu and my mother is Xhosa.

MR LOWIES: Can you speak Sesotho?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Not well, I understand it here and there.

CHAIRPERSON: They did not use a sort of Sesotho interpreter when you made a confession?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, wherever I've been in prison, the prison authorities would inform me that I speak isiZulu.

MR LOWIES: Chair it's quarter past now, it's an appropriate time.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are those documents, are we going to see those documents?

MR LOWIES: It's deep inside some of the others, millions of documents here.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay I'll see counsel now or tomorrow before we start?

MR BERGER: Could we ask that it's tomorrow morning, we have a consultation in Johannesburg at quarter past five.

MR LOWIES: I have a similar problem I would also appreciate it.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Alright, what time shall we see you, shortly just before we start round about, you know, around about ten to or five to.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We will rise now, we will start tomorrow at 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS