Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Not at all, I've never met him I've never heard the name and I've never seen him Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have anything to do with the abduction of Mohabi Dibali?

ANSWER: Not at all, not at all, nothing at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you learned at any stage as to what has happened to Mohabi Dibali?

ANSWER: No Mr Chairman, the only thing that I knew that someone was abducted with Almond's private car and the car had to be hidden on Vlakplaas but it was a West Rand Security operation under Captain Jan Coetzee together with one of my men, Captain Koos Vermeulen, which I had no knowledge of.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ANSWER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know anything, and I don't confine it to you having any personal contact with it, anything about the detention of Mohabi Dibali in August 1982?

ANSWER: Also no knowledge whatsoever Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Coetzee did you undertake any operations in Harare in the year 1981?

ANSWER: In Harare?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	109	D J COETZEE

ANSWER: Not at all, it was only in Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland, nothing at all in Harare, never.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it not possible that other members of Vlakplaas may have been in Harare during this 1981?

ANSWER: Not at all, not at all without my knowledge, that was more the operational area of Section A3 under the command of Brigadier Piet Goosen those days but the more specific A3, Captain Craig Williamson.   The operated most of the times with the Defence Force co-operation into Harare, Zimbabwe, South West Africa or Namibia, Zambia and neighbouring countries.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any answers you would like to elicit from Mr Coetzee while he's here?
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

<UNKNOWN>: Just the one.   To what extent were you at the time aware of the activities of the Section A of the Security Police who also had operations in other countries?

ANSWER: Can you just repeat that question?

<UNKNOWN>: To what extent were you aware of the activities of Section A at the time or thereafter?

ANSWER: Well only by hearsay evidence as far as the London bombing of the ANC offices, the smuggling of explosives in a diplomatic bag as conveyed to me by Peter Casselton(?), the individual that was involved in the London blowing up of the offices, Craig Williamson himself, the Jeanette Schoon murder and her child Katrina in Angola where a parcel bomb was sent to her, as relayed to me by Craig Williamson and the (indistinct) one.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, how did it come about that you got to know of these was it in some formal structure in the police or through informal talks with these people?
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MR JANSEN	110	D J COETZEE

ANSWER: With informal talks with Williamson.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you a friend of Williamson at the time?

ANSWER: I was and I've got a quote in the manuscript where I can demonstrate that Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you possibly just quote it for record purposes?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman in the manuscript during a departmental trial where I was the accused, he gave evidence to the Presiding Officer to explain to him what this, we've got this different way of talking, a dubious way of talking by for instance saying "make a plan" or and I would say "deal with the person" and he would say "hmm" which will have a complete different meaning in the normal sense of speaking but then Williamson explains to the Presiding Officer he says, officer at the presiding trial and he says
"It is a very devious way of talking..."

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman sorry to interrupt, this on page 22 of the amended...

ANSWER: Sorry yes 22, paragraph 4.3.2.4 Mr Chairman
"It is a very devious way of talking, it is something that security people will understand."
and also:
"I think for people in the profession people who speak deviously to each other and who have a very intimate rapport with each other, understand intimately, understand very well what is going on in this type of conversation."
Craig Williamson at my internal trial on 10 June 1985, Vol 6, page 292-293 of the proceedings.   This was done when he made a recording of a conversation between himself and, him and myself where you had this half completed sentences and
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MR JANSEN	111	D J COETZEE
I stopped when I saw he understood what I was talking about and the same half complete answer would sort of come back.  So he was then explaining to the Presiding Officer and he's talking about a very "intimate rapport" referring to the relationship between him and myself.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: What do we proceed to now?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman as I understood the idea was that we would again start with Mr Coetzee, more particulary two of the matters where we will be leading evidence, that is No's 13 of the application and 14, these are both..the idea was that we lead the evidence...(end of 1a)...page 24 and 27, that are the typed page numbers of the Annexure respectively 24 and 27 and then in the manuscript you will see that the two incidents are dealt with together.   The one being an adjunct to the other one, in other words the diamond dealer starts on page 118, continues through to page 119 that's paragraph 5.4.18 and then...

CHAIRPERSON: Give me the page again, diamond dealer starts?

MR JANSEN: Page 118 to 119 and then it re-starts after a digression into the Lindley shooting incident, it re-starts at page 121.   That's paragraph 5.4.18 where it starts and it starts again at paragraph 5.4.18.20 I think.   The Lindley shooting incident starts at page 119, paragraph 5.4.18.8.

JUDGE WILSON: I don't know if I'm the only person unlucky enough not to have page 118?

MR JANSEN: If we may just enquiry as to whether that's a general problem then we'd have to, you don't have it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes this is an omission, page 118 is missing.
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MR JANSEN	112	ADDRESS

MR JANSEN: Yes, it seems like from all of them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I do have 118.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be page 119 to where?

MR JANSEN: Yes, it then goes through to, the diamond dealer goes to 119 to paragraph 5.4.18.7 that is where it stops in the meantime.   Then there's a digression on to the Lindley shooting incident from 18.8 on to, the next page deals with the Lindley shooting incident and then on page 121 from 18.20 is the diamond dealer starting again.   Then it's to the end of paragraph 5.4.18 until page 123.   Mr Chairman if I may just enquire from yourself whether we could proceed with the evidence and then at the first adjournment ensure that you have page 118?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may proceed.
DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE (suo)
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will do 13 first Mr Chairman.   Mr Coetzee in your manuscript and in your application you make reference to the murder of a diamond dealer, is that correct?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you briefly explain to the Committee what gave rise to the killing of this diamond dealer and what was your involvement there?