Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-14

JUDGE WILSON: : Who is he that both of you are referring to? You said "he" and you said "he", who are you talking about, the accuser May or are you talking about Sgt. van der Watt?
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, I am referring to Sgt. van der Watt as being the person who handed the articles over to me and this is also the person who told me where he found the articles at Sgt. van der Watt.
ADV. MTHEMBU: Because Mr May says that the leather jacket referred to in 14.1 was the leather jacket you made him to remove when you arrested him and further that the items mentioned in paragraph 14.2, 14.3 and 14.4 that all these articles were also found in the vehicle.
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, that is not correct, the leather jacket, Sgt. van der Watt handed it to me, also the other items, the hankie and the firearm. At no stage were these articles found in the vehicle.

JUDGE WILSON: : Did you put it to him that the leather jacket was found in the vehicle?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, I said the articles mentioned in 14.2, 14.3 and 4.

JUDGE WILSON: Not the leather jacket?
ADV. MTHEMBU: Not the leather jacket.

JUDGE WILSON: : My recollection was that when he gave evidence he said it was found in the house (. . . intervention)
	You may carry on.
ADV. MTHEMBU: Now, in paragraph 15, you say as a result of information given to you by Mr May, you went to House No. 337, how did Mr May furnish this information to you?
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, he gave this information to me voluntarily, he said that some of the persons had been with him which showed to me and then took me to House 337, K Block, Botshabelo(?) where I arrested accused No. 2 and 3.
ADV. MTHEMBU: But Inspector, Mr May says that when he was arrested in the yard, he was assaulted with fists and hit with the butt of firearms and that you actually suggested to him that he should got to House No. 337 which is where some or one of his co-accused was.
INSP. DE LA REY: That is not correct. Accused No. 1 voluntarily gave the information. At no stage was he assaulted with the fist or a butt of the firearm, he voluntarily took me to address 337.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you remember whether or not allegations of assault were also made during the trial?
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, no, I do not recall any allegations of assault during the trial, not as far as I can remember.
ADV. MTHEMBU: Accused No. 1, goes further and says that you actually mentioned to him though it mistakenly, that you had got the information that Leeuw had been involved from Leeuw's parents instead of saying from Nkgwedi's parents and that is how you then said he must take you to House No. 337 being the house of Mr Leeuw.
ADV. DE JAGER: . . . (inaudible) this really is it in order to exonerate Mr May because he split on his pals or what is the purpose of the question?
ADV. MTHEMBU: The purpose is that Mr May did not voluntarily furnish to the Inspector any information voluntarily, that the Inspector already came to Mr May having had prior information that he had obtained from Mr Nkgwedi's parents although he had said to May that information he had got from Leeuw's parents. Now you . . .

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: . . . (interruption) I think Adv. de Jager is asking you this because it is common cause isn't it, I mean your client's admitted that they went to the deceased place, they killed the deceased, Mr May himself agrees he was there and he took part in killing the person, how he was the one or other person was arrested, where the information came out why it was, how did the police get the information implicating another person, does it really matter, after all as I say they admit they went there and they committed this offence.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With due respect Sir, what I wanted to have test the credibility of Insp. del La Rey, I submit that it will be - it is relevant if information not furnished by him - by Mr May, for him to say in his statement that I got with that information from Mr May voluntarily who had to go after arresting him. I would submit the relevance.
ADV. DE JAGER: Didn't I yesterday ask Mr May, whether he took the police and pointed out his friends, and he said yes, he did so and he never complained that he was assaulted, he never mentioned it yesterday when I asked him.
ADV. MTHEMBU: I don't recall if he said he had taken the police to Mr Leeuw's house voluntarily. It may have been that he said he took them there, but I am, perhaps the point was not canvassed further that if he did take them there was it as a result of information that he voluntarily furnished the police or as the lot of police are saying take us to No. 337.
ADV. DE JAGER: OK. let us carry on.
ADV. MTHEMBU: My question to the Inspector is that when he went to Mr May, didn't you already have information and that addresses of the suspects that you were looking for and it was merely for Mr May to direct you to the respective houses?
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, I didn't have any addresses with me before. I hadn't got any suspects in the case up to that stage before arresting Mr May so I didn't have any addresses and I really didn't have any addresses of the accused.