Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Chairperson, what confused me is that even though Mr Ntuli did not look at the time he was called by Iscor security, he came and knocked at the window where I was sleeping, in the room where I was sleeping, to say that I was wanted but by the post ...[indistinct] and he said on Frikkie Meyer Boulevard about 300 people were seen and feared that these people were coming to attack the Kwamadala Hostel residents and he wanted to know whether everybody was in the hostel.  That is when I started to look at this, I walked around the houses around the gate and I discovered that nobody was suspected to have left the hostel and that on its own stopped me from continuing my questioning Mr Ntuli.

CHAIRPERSON: It would have been long after, that would have been long after the attack?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: After hours of the attack.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Before we get to the attack, if you had been privy to the planning for the attack would you not have had a problem and this is the problem I want to put to you, you want to launch an attack on Boipatong, you want to get 400 or more armed residents out of Kwamadala and into Boipatong to slaughter the residents of Boipatong and you want to get them back into Kwamadala, would it not have been a problem for you taking into account the fact that the Vaal Commander, Iscor Security and the police were always patrolling in and around the area where your men would have to go through.  I'm asking you, Mr Mthembu, as commander of those men would that have been a problem for you?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That would certainly have been a problem.

MR BERGER: Because you couldn't safely have led your men out of the hostel into Boipatong, spent an hour or so there and led your men back without being detected by (a) the police (b) Iscor Security or (c) the army or all of them, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct Mr Berger but I would like to add I am not disputing.  Only on Wednesdays we have Iscor people working lesser hours.  There were people who were off duty whilst others were working and they only worked for twelve hours on that day from 6 right up to sunset.

MR BERGER: So you're saying that Iscor Security might not have been patrolling?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: For example people were watching the situation and they knew very well how the Iscor Security operated, they knew that nobody was going to work that time and nobody was coming from work.  It occurs to me that they may have used that opportunity.  There was no one from 7 o'clock in the evening right after 11 o'clock.  There was no one who would come back from work.  There was dead silence.

CHAIRPERSON: That would have been between 7 in the evening and?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Eleven - evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Between 11 and 7?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it between 7 p.m.?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: 7 p.m.

CHAIRPERSON: And 11 p.m.?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: No one would be coming to the hostel between that time?  Only people returning?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did the last shift finish in the evening?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The last shift would come in at 6 in the evening by which time another group would be going and others who were working overtime.

CHAIRPERSON: So people would be leaving the hostel round about what, 5, 4, to go to start the 6 o'clock shift?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And another group would be leaving the hostel round about 4,5,6 in the morning?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MR BERGER: So you're saying from 7 in the evening until 11 in the evening there was no Iscor Security patrol in the area around Kwamadala Hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That's how it seems.

MR BERGER: Only on Wednesdays?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: On Wednesdays, on Saturdays and on Sundays, the system is the same.

MR BERGER: But as far as the police and the Vaal Commander were concerned their patrols 24 hours around the hostel were seven days a week?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So as commander of this attack force you still would have had a problem, taking your men out of the hostel and into Boipatong because there was always the danger that you could come across a police vehicle or a military vehicle, am I right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Would you please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: There was always the danger that leading such a large group of armed men out of the hostel you could encounter a vehicle from the Vaal Commando on patrol or you could encounter a police vehicle in that area around the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes but I can tell you that if they had planned in advance to walk behind the vehicle to have an opportunity to sneak, that yes was possible, they knew the area very well.

MR BERGER: And you're saying that the gate to the hostel which is very close to the entrance to Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Did not have Iscor Security personnel in close proximity on a Wednesday evening?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I would not say they were not at their posts but knowing how the Iscor shifts operated they would ...[intervention]

MR BERGER: They would what?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I am saying for example that if a pig eats the mother doesn't count how many times it eats.

MR BERGER: You've lost me but never mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, would you please explain what you mean by ...[indistinct]

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I am saying it was easy because you have only one person.  They were looking at the Iscor Security and the Vaal Commando only and if these two groups had gone past, the people from the hostel knew that nobody else would come on foot to disturb them at the time of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: The hostel residents, they must have been - were they aware of the routine followed by the Vaal Commando and the Iscor Security in patrolling the area?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes they knew because it had been a long time, for a very long time.  If somebody was watchful enough that was possible.

MR BERGER: The reason I ask you these questions is because I have a document here which I don't intend making an exhibit and burdening the Committee with, but I can tell you it was a memorandum submitted to the Goldstone Commission on behalf of Iscor and it talks about an Iscor patrol on the evening of the 17th June 1992.  Do you know a certain Mr Nel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Maybe I can recognise him should I come across him.

MR BERGER: Mr F J Nel, a senior control officer.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes, thank you, now I remember seeing or listening to the initials.  He is now working here at the Iscor Club, he retired.

MR BERGER: He began a patrol at 10 minutes past 8 in the evening and according to this memorandum his patrol passed the Kwamadala Hostel between ...[intervention]

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: May the question please be repeated?

CHAIRPERSON: At what time is the question Mr Interpreter?

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated pertaining to the patrol?

MR BERGER: At 10 minutes past 8 in the evening he left the South Gate, he patrolled the outside boundary fence, during his patrol he passed the Kwamadala Hostel and he concluded his patrol and 20 minutes past 8, so the time would be between 10 past 8 and 20 past 8 in the evening.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is like him.

MR BERGER: At 5 to 9, do you know a Mrs Oosthuizen?  She was a control room security officer?

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute, wait a minute.  Just repeat your answer?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I will not dispute that, he is telling you what he was doing.