Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MR MALAN: How many of you travelled to the supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: We were five.

MR MALAN: In your statement to the police you said all five the persons got out of the car, now who were: "all five"?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: As I've already explained about the statement, I made that statement under pressure because they forced me to make that statement.  They were leading me with the information because they knew, therefore I had to write what they knew or what they wanted me to write because I did not have any option, I had to do that.

MR MALAN: Did you tell them that there were not five people but yourself, Sibande and three others?  Did you tell them that?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I told them they way I did because they were assaulting me and they were leading me with the information so I had to verify what they told me.  They took me to the police station to make a confession statement, then they said I should make this statement.

MR MALAN: So you did not offer any information to them, you didn't tell them anything?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, they told me to write what is in the statement because I didn't co-operate with them.

MR MALAN: And if I heard you correctly you said to Mr Steenkamp that this was not raised in your defence at the court case?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: The question was, why didn't you tell them at the court case that this statement was made, that you were led with this statement, that you didn't co-operate at all?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I briefed my lawyer about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give evidence at your trial?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you questioned about this statement?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I disputed the statement in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you questioned about it when you gave evidence?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes.  I resisted and I disputed, that this is a statement made by the police whilst they were assaulting me.

MR MALAN: Did the police tell you to put in your statement that Danny drove the vehicle?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I told them because they were assaulting me, I didn't have any other option.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, did the police tell you to say that?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, they were leading me with that information because they knew everything about me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if they knew everything about you, does that mean Danny did drive the motorcar?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: They were assaulting me, I didn't have any other option.  I ended up by saying whatever they say I would agree with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you've just said: "The police were leading me with information because they knew all about me".  That would imply that the information they were leading you with was correct.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It was not true because it was received from the third person, not from me.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you have ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: So you say the police did tell you that?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you have a driver's licence at that time?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No, I did not.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you have it now?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No, Madam.

MR STEENKAMP: So when you said that you refused to drive because you did not have a driver's licence and you told that Danny should drive, was that true or was that not true?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That was not correct, that was not true.  I wanted them to leave because what they were saying came from the informer.  ...[no English translation]  Moses Leglogiso.

MR MALAN: Did Moses know that you did not have a driver's licence?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: How did he know that?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was my friend whom I was staying with.

MR MALAN: How did Moses know of the detail?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I don't know Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't there was he?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: So he couldn't have described where you stopped, he wouldn't have known that you went to a corrugated-iron house to collect weapons or matters of that nature, would he?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Maybe he was told by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the police there?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: They were not present.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you see ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: You see Mr Tshoane, you must really make up your mind.   Either Moses told the police and he was an informer or the police told Moses, now which story do you believe?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It's that there was something which was done by the police and Mohoje about me.  So Mohoje sold me to the police.  That is the plan they did against me.

MR MALAN: Yes, but you tell us that Moses was not with you when you went to the Supermarket, so Moses would not have known this detail, so Moses could not have been the informer.  When that was pointed out to you then you say: "But the police told Moses".  Moses didn't make this statement, you made this statement.  Where does Moses figure in this whole equation?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I said before that the police led me with the information.  Some of the information came from the police, some of the police might come from Moses.

MR MALAN: What information here could have come from Moses, because this statement deals with the shooting and the robbery and the run-up to that but Moses wasn't involved.  How would he have known it?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Maybe Moses learnt from Daniso.

MR MALAN: Okay, if Moses learnt from Daniso, Daniso went with you.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct, he went with me.

MR MALAN: So he knew what happened?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Do you mean Mohoje?  Maybe they had a conversation about that because they stayed in one place and they met on regular times.

MR MALAN: You're not hearing me.  If the source of the information of the police, as you have told us, was indeed Daniso ...[intervention]

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was not arrested.  Daniso was never arrested.

MR MALAN: I know he was not arrested but he was there.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Maybe they were, they had a conversation with Mohoje about that issue but I never said that to Mohoje myself.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that this statement was probably a plot against you.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But as I read the statement, nowhere in it do you admit knowing of the plan, that you drove them there to assist them in the robbery, that you had any part in it.  Your statement is, as I understand it, that you were being paid R50 to drive them to a farm and that only as you went along they told you to go further and further and that then Danny took over the driving and drove to the scene of the crime.  That is what they statement says isn't it?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: What is written on the statement I do not agree with all because I made this statement under duress.  These people were leading me into saying what they wanted me to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what I find hard to accept is that nowhere have they led you into saying that you were a party to this robbery, have they?  There's nothing in the statement to say they told me what the plan was, they asked me if I could drive them to where they were going to rob and kill people.  There's no such mention is there?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: It is because that is not my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: They point I'm trying to make is that is it is a police statement which they made to get at you, they would have made you say something that implicated you.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: What I was writing and what they asked me to say, I did that because I wanted to get out of trouble.  It is true that they were leading me, everything that they were asking.  They told me that their informer told them about me.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.