Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And that you might have said certain things to Mr de Kock.  Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Is it probable that you would have simply handed over this information to Mr de Kock in a willy-nilly fashion?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: A final aspect  you said that you returned to the offices and at that point it was already becoming light.  That was after the operation?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, that's true.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And that was in the middle of winter?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: So we can assume that it would have been approximately 630 in the morning?

MR J VAN ZYL: That could be, Mr Chairman.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And then a final point.  You stated in your evidence that in the beginning of 1984, Mr Winter arrived at the Security Branch in Cradock.

MR J VAN ZYL: Some or other time in the first half of that year.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: So you would agree with me that it would be possible that he only arrived there in March?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is possible.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And you had at that stage already been involved for 15 months in the Eastern Cape Regional Security Branch in Port Elizabeth.

MR J VAN ZYL: That would have been the time that I had returned to the operational area.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And I am correct I assuming that you actually knew more about the threats and such that Mr Goniwe and his cohorts presented to the security forces.  More than what Mr Winter would have known?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And you might have contacted Mr Winter regarding these activities?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is so.

ADV D POTGIETER: Mr van Zyl, the yellow vehicle, which kind of vehicle was it?

MR J VAN ZYL: It was a Datsun at that time.

ADV D POTGIETER: What type of Datsun?

MR J VAN ZYL: A large Datsun, the Laurel.

ADV D POTGIETER: And what year model was that?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I imagine it was a 1983 or 1984 model.

ADV D POTGIETER: A relatively new vehicle.  We are speaking of '84 or '85.
	It was approximately one or two years old?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

ADV D POTGIETER: And it was an official vehicle?

MR J VAN ZYL: That was an official police vehicle, Sir.

ADV D POTGIETER: Can you just clarify something else for me.
	Do you have exhibit "N" in front of you?  Do you see point "A" on that plan?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

ADV D POTGIETER: According to the information here, this is where the body of Mr Mkhonto was found?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

ADV D POTGIETER: How far would you say that point is from the point near St George's beach, "D" and "E", where you initially arrived with the activists?

MR J VAN ZYL: Chairperson, it's difficult to say, but I think it could be four to five kilometres.  Perhaps a little further.

ADV D POTGIETER: You drove alone with Mr Mkhonto in this yellow Laurel, is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

ADV D POTGIETER: Did you have to via the N2, on a national road.

MR J VAN ZYL: I might have used a number of roads to reach my destination.  I cannot remember which road I used that evening to get onto the other road.

ADV D POTGIETER: Are there any other ways or routes apart from the N2 which one could have used to arrive at point "A".

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.  There were a number of what we called "sly" routes, not official routes.
	I am not very familiar with the area anymore.

ADV D POTGIETER: This point "A" is in the vicinity of Redhouse.  I assume that is to the north of point "A"?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

ADV D POTGIETER: And it appears that one would have to move past Swartkops firstly and that is a little more to the east, to the coast, if you look at the plan, do you have Swartkops.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

ADV D POTGIETER: It appears as if  - well we have Bluewater Bay, and Amsterdamhoek in that vicinity, so it would appear if I understand this plan correctly, that one would have to move past all these places in order to reach point "A".

MR J VAN ZYL: Some of these places, there were a number of unofficial routes among the townships.  I can't recall which one was primarily followed.

ADV D POTGIETER: But it would appear as if one had to move through a built up area in order to move from point "D" and "E" to point "A".
	Is that how you travelled?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall which routes I followed or why I - that area at that time was far more bushy than what it is today and I can't remember what my reasoning was in following that route, but that is how I travelled.

ADV D POTGIETER: Well, this is what comes to me.  What would your reasoning have been?  Wouldn't it have been risky for you to travel that route?

MR J VAN ZYL: Not necessarily, the person with me was cuffed and alive.  I could have travelled along that route as a police official.

ADV D POTGIETER: I mean in terms of the fact that you were moving in public, you could have been spotted.

MR J VAN ZYL: It was after 1200, midnight.  There wasn't much activity.  It was winter.

ADV D POTGIETER: I can understand "D" and "E" which were fairly remote, and probably suitable for what you had in mind.  But to move from "D" and "E" to "A" perhaps we would have to look at what that would involve, that kind of route, but at face value, it appears as if you travelled quite a distance from a remote area, through an area with buildings, and that's what I can't understand.

MR J VAN ZYL: It wasn't very constructed at that stage, there were a number of remote routes.
	I can only speculate regarding what I thought, but I wanted to place the incidents as far as possible from one another.   After which I didn't follow it when I returned to the original place.  I cannot recall what my idea or strategy was at that stage.

ADV D POTGIETER: The environment surrounding "A" was to a degree rather remote.  There wasn't a neighbourhood in the immediate environment.  As far as I can recall there was an industrial area not far from there.

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.  It was one of the remote areas which I probably had in mind at that stage.

ADV D POTGIETER: And after that you moved away and picked up Mr Faku and the others and you travelled to New Brighton Police Station and from there back to Redhouse.

MR J VAN ZYL: It wasn't such a giant distance.

ADV D POTGIETER: Well we will have to establish what it is, establish how one would travel from St George's beach to Redhouse, and it could be - the Chairperson had just brought my attention to exhibit "O" which proposes that the distance from point "C" to point "A" is 82 km and that is more in line, approximately according to the key of the map.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, the document that you are referring to is the route to Olifantshoek.

ADV D POTGIETER: Yes, you are correct, Mr Hugo.  Thank you.  We have an incorrect point "C" and "A".
	As I have said, there is no clarity so we would have to discuss it with you at a later date, so that we can get a better picture of the distance that we are dealing with here.
	Was there a farm or smallholding near Cradock or Olifantspas, near the point that you were when you abducted the individuals?

MR J VAN ZYL: Not that I had knowledge of.  Near Cradock, which is a totally different area, that's 150 km further, there were farming areas which I spoke of during my submission.

ADV D POTGIETER: Wasn't it generally rather risky the way that you executed this plan?  You took persons approximately 82 km from Port Elizabeth and you drove all the way with them to a remote point near St. George's Strand, then you left them with one of your members and Lotz went to burn the vehicle.
	While the four persons remained with your colleague.

MR J VAN ZYL: I didn't think it was risky. That is the way that it happened.

ADV D POTGIETER: And then you took Mr Mkhonto all the way to Redhouse, while the others were waiting on the coast.

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.