Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-19

MR DORFLING: Let me put it this way. From the time that Mr Molefe pointed out the crowd to you approaching from the direction of Wanderers Street in de Villiers Street.

MOSES VELI LLALE: The question is did I see any pistols? Is that the question?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) did you see any other person firing?

MOSES VELI LLALE: No.

MR DORFLING: So as you sit here today you in actual fact never saw anybody firing a shot in that time span?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Before the main shooting, yes. If you are referring to those who were still coming to the intersection I didn't see anybody firing before the intersection yes.

MR DORFLING: I am dealing from that point in time until such time as the main shooting had finished. In other words from the time the people were approaching throughout the main shooting until such time as the firing ceased did you see anybody firing any shoots amongst the marchers?

MR LAX: Mr Dorfling why don't you break it up into the different stages because you are covering quite a wide span of events that would have happened. Certainly that is my impression. Things went totally chaotic after that. So break it up into workable units that are distinct from each other and give him that opportunity otherwise it just gets into a blur.

MR DORFLING: Yes Mr Chair the reason I didn't break it down is to make it easier for the witness. If I confine him to specific portions or specific time spans he might not be sure when exactly he saw it that is why I give him a wider ambit to say; did you throughout this whole period perhaps see anything and then we can work to the specifics once he has responded to that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Dorfling is your question only limited to a group of marchers which were approaching from Wanderers Street into de Villiers Street?

MR DORFLING: I am specifically referring to the group to which Mr Molefe drew his attention. I understood that to be the group in de Villiers Street.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Which were approaching from Wanderers Street?

MR DORFLING: Indeed it would seem from west to east in de Villiers Street from the direction of Wanderers Street.

MOSES VELI LLALE: I said on that group they were only carrying them. They didn't fire. It was visible for me to see they were carrying them but they were not firing them.

MR DORFLING: What kind of firearms did you actually observe amongst that group?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Except the AK I have mentioned I said pistols. That is what I said. Only pistols.

MR DORFLING: Let's now concentrate on the other groups. Did you observe any other group approaching that intersection carrying any firearms?

MOSES VELI LLALE: At that time I was concentrating more on this group which was in de Villiers Street. The one which was coming up King George I don't remember seeing anything about them. Whether they were carrying what but I remember I spoke about the one which was in de Villiers Street. That is where I was concentrating to.

MR DORFLING: Can I then take your answer to mean that you did not see any firearm amongst any other group? The only firearms you saw amongst the marchers was firearms carried by those people approaching the corner in de Villiers Street?

MOSES VELI LLALE: If you speak about the two groups at later stage they were assembled at the intersection. I said the reason that my main focus was on this group because there was this person who had an AK. That is why I concentrated more on this group.

MR DORFLING: And to just make it absolutely clear we are also talking of the whole time duration from the time you actually observed these marchers for the first time until such time as the shooting had finished, until the fire ceased?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Which fire are you are talking about the main incident now after they had shot at us? Is that it you want the explanation from there?

MR DORFLING: Yes from the time that the marchers, that your attention was attracted to them in de Villiers Street until such time as the firing ceased? Are you with me? I am talking about the main incident.

MOSES VELI LLALE: If I have to recall in my statement I said not putting this AK person because he already is there. I said I saw other two gentlemen who seems to me as if they were shooting because then there was a lot of gun fire. Maybe I might have said I saw them shooting because at that time I couldn't distinguish who was shooting, who was not shooting. But for the main fact that on that day I am talking about now the shooting in King George, that they were carrying their guns. So in my mind I said I saw them shooting because already was shooting. So I assume that because their pistol were in their hands they were shooting. This is what I said that I saw people shooting. Mentioning the two if we exclude this AK person.

JUDGE NGCOBO: I am not with you Mr Llale. Which statement are you talking about now?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Can I speak zulu. I think I have a problem with the way I express myself or the panel has a problem. What he is pushing me to or what he wants me to admit is that earlier on I had said I have seen people, a group of people not more than five people I think who were in front of this man with the AK47 - they were also having pistols with them. And this particular instance was up to the point of just before the main shooting. After the main shooting had started as I had said yesterday that I was shooting at that time and I was upright. This was asked during the inquest as to whether I had seen other people carrying firearms and shooting except for this man with the AK47. I think what he is going back to is the fact that I said I saw nobody shooting. Now he is saying that I am not talking the truth because I didn't see anyone shooting. Now he is going back to my statement. I don't know whether I have answered your question or I am still confusing you.

JUDGE NGCOBO: All I need you to tell me is in what statement is what you have just said contained?

MOSES VELI LLALE: It is the evidence that I tendered in court. Could he please take it step by step because he is now mixing the evidence that I tendered in court as well as with other evidence? Could he please just be specific when he asks his questions and tell me what he is taking his question from?

JUDGE NGCOBO: I understand that but I think what you should take cognisance of is that if you are being asked a question you should try and confine yourself to answering the particular question. And if you do not understand the question you should ask that the question should be repeated so that you do understand what is being asked in order to avoid a lot of confusion.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Mr Dorfling can you be really specific here that what you are asking me is it before the main shooting or when they were coming to the intersection. I am just confused which incident do you want me to explain here?

MR DORFLING: Okay I am going to try and make it clear one more time Mr Llale. I am referring to the time from when you saw the marchers after Mr Molefe drew you attention to it until such time as the shooting ceased. Until such time as the firing stopped. In other words the whole duration of the main incident starting from where the marchers starting approaching the intersection when you first saw them until such time as the main shooting had been over. Do you understand that? That is the time span I want to concentrate on.

CHAIRPERSON: For my benefit what was the question relating to that time span?

MR DORFLING: No the applicant asked me to please tell him which time span I am referring to and I have just dealt with that and I will now get to the questions I want him to respond with relation to that time span.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright yes thank you.

MR DORFLING: The first question I want to pose to you is whether in that time span you saw any firearms amongst the marchers apart from the AK47 you saw with the gentleman with the red T-shirt?