Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

MR STRYDOM: Yes Chairperson, I should have told Chairperson earlier on but people from the prison are not here.  The first applicant is Tebogo Magubane, he is the applicant who serves sentence apparently now in Klerksdorp Prison and I've informed the people to try to get him here.  The same would apply to Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, there's again uncertainty about his whereabouts, apparently he is in Sasolburg Prison, I'm investigating that.  Yes I would ask that we continue in their absence, they have already testified, I will look after their interests, I've got instructions on a previous occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: Chairperson, Mr Mthembu has not arrived yet but apparently he is on his way.  He was not - ...(indistinct) sent to the prison, but he is on his way.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: Chair, he has just arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in anticipation of these hearings and since the last adjournment, Ms Cambanis, Advocate Malindi and I directed certain correspondence to various parties, amongst them Iscor, the South African Police, Mr Armin Kluth on behalf of the South African Defence Force and the Inkatha Freedom Party.  We received certain replies which may become relevant at a later stage in these proceedings and we didn't want to hold back on anything so we've prepared bundles.  Might I hand up the bundles to you, Chairperson.  If they can be given an exhibit number, we're not going to refer to them at the moment but just so that my learned friends can have copies and consider their position in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, what was the last bundle, was it S?

MR BERGER: Sorry, if this then could be Exhibit T?

CHAIRPERSON: T, yes.

MR BERGER: We've made copies for the Committee, I could hand that up and then copies for my learned friends as well.

CHAIRPERSON: So that will be bundle T?

MR BERGER: As you please Chairperson.  I had four copies for my learned friends, I didn't anticipate Mr Lowies being here today but it will be handed over now.
	Chairperson, the other point that we just wish to make and I make this on behalf of Advocate Malindi and Ms Cambanis at this stage of the proceedings, is that our learned friends, Mr Strydom and Mr da Silva have indicated that they do not intend leading any ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute, just before you get to that?

MR BERGER: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, I'm sorry, yes go ahead.

MR BERGER: That they do not intend leading any evidence at this stage.  In particular, we would just like to make one point abundantly clear if it hasn't been made clear already and that is in regard to Advocate Strydom's clients and up until this point and I think it still continues to represent the interests of the IFP, we will argue at the end of this amnesty hearing that the applicants, amongst other things, do not qualify for amnesty because they do not meet the requirements of Section 22(a) of the Act.  In other words, that they were not properly authorised to act on behalf of the Inkatha Freedom Party.  Their case is that they committed these crimes on behalf of the Inkatha Freedom Party.  The evidence thus far is that the person who sanctioned the attack was Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize, on his own evidence not an official of the Inkatha Freedom Party.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Nowhere in any proceedings before any Committee were we able to establish anywhere whether Inkatha Freedom Party, any official of the Inkatha Freedom Party has come forward to say that we sanctioned the attack either before or that we sanctioned the attack or approved the attack afterwards and we will argue at the end of the case that there is no evidence before the Committee of any approval either before or subsequent on behalf of the IFP.  We don't want that argument to come as a surprise, we're not asking for anything to be done at this stage, we just want to make it abundantly clear that that will be the argument so that Mr Strydom can consider his position and consider whether there are not any officials of the Inkatha Freedom Party that he wants to lead evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there anything you want to place on record?

MR MAPOMA: Except Chairperson to record that Mr Themba Khosa and Chief Mangosuto Buthelezi were notified and Advocate Strydom has confirmed with me that he takes care of their interests.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well just so that there is clarity on the rules to the extent that there is now representation of a group of applicants by more than one counsel.  The rule that we applied to the legal representatives of the victims will also apply to the applicants and that is to say we will not allow a counsel to go over a matter which has been canvassed by the other counsel.  We would please ask counsel to make sure that they don't cover the same ground that has already been covered by the other counsel.  I'm directing this specifically to you Mr Lowies because you have not been here before so that you understand that that's the way you're proceeding here, do you understand?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So that when you do cross-examine we would expect someone to conduct a cross-examination at least on behalf of all the applicants to the extent that they have an identity of interest.

MR LOWIES: May I just enquire chair, what is the position regarding Prince Vanana Zulu?

CHAIRPERSON: He's not an applicant is he?

MR LOWIES: No, he's only implicated.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed.  Yes very well.  Are you ready to proceed ma'am?

MS TANZER: I am ready to proceed, I would just like another set of headphones, this is a bit static.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh really?  Just for the record, we intend rising for lunch at about half past one and then we will resume at about quarter past two.  Forty five minutes should be okay, is that okay?  Yes very well.
	Have you gentlemen and lady received a copy of the application?

MR BERGER: We've received one copy yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You have, okay very well.  During the course of the day, perhaps this evening, would you please consider the application and let us know how you intend responding to it whether you just want the matter to be argued of these papers or whether you would like to file affidavits so that we can determine, you know, when it can be heard.

MR BERGER: We'll let you know our attitude tomorrow morning at 9.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (sworn states)

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga, you completed and signed two forms, two form 1's in the bundle.  One Form 1 was signed on the 25 September 1996 and one Form 1 was signed on the 15 May 1997.  Do you verify your signatures on these forms?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt you, the applicant's application is contained in bundle R is it as I see it, is that right?

MS TANZER: Yes it's bundle R.
	Do you verify this as your signature?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have bundle R in front of you?

MS TANZER: Yes I do have bundle R in front of me.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh you do.  Alright, okay.  As you are leading Mr Nosenga, will you be referring to bundle R?

MS TANZER: Yes I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay very well, now when you do so Ma'am, because it is numbered up to page 17 I think it is, would you indicate to us what page you are on, okay?

MS TANZER: I'll do so Mr Chair.
	On page 6 you find the first Form 1, is this your signature?  Do you verify the signature?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the speaker is not coming through.

CHAIRPERSON: The testimony that you are rendering here is not for your legal representative but it is manned for us who are sitting here as well as those who are sitting at the back of this hall, so you should not speak as if you're talking to your legal representative only.  So if you want to speak Zulu, if you want to speak English, go ahead and do so.

MS TANZER: Do you verify that this is your signature?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that's my signature.