Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.   Today we will commence our proceedings with hearing the application of Mr Lucky J. Hlengwa.  Before we start, I would like to introduce the Committee to you.
	We are all members of the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni, he is an attorney from Pretoria.  On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, he is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division.
	I ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  My name is E.M. Ngubane, I am representing James Lucky Hlengwa and Tulani Filemon Moses Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MS THABETE: I am Ms Thabele Thabete.  I am the Evidence Leader, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  The proceedings are going to be simultaneously translated into English and Zulu.  In order to benefit from the translation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices.  They are available from the Sound Technician in the front of the hall, so if you want to listen to the translation, please get one of these devices.
	Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the first applicant Mr Lucky James Hlengwa.  His application starts at page 299 and then it ends, well all the application papers start at 299 and end at 477.
	May I call Mr Hlengwa?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Hlengwa, is it correct that you were born on the 5th of March 1964?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: You were born in kwaMashu and you grew up there and you were subsequently employed by the kwaZulu government as a policeman, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Where were you stationed when you worked as a kwaZulu police?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: kwaMashu police station.

MR NGUBANE: What was your rank?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I was a Constable.

MR NGUBANE: For how long had you worked as a Constable?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Before my arrest, I had worked for four years because I commenced work on the 22nd of July 1986.  Therefore I worked as a Constable for four years.

MR NGUBANE: When you worked as a policeman, did you belong to any political organisation?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Although I was not a member, there was a political organisation that I associated myself with.

MR NGUBANE: In other words you were a sympathiser with a certain political organisation, is that right?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Which political organisation did you sympathise with?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: With the African National Congress.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that you are presently serving sentence in Westville prison?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: How long is the sentence that you are serving?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: 18 years.

MR NGUBANE: You were convicted of which offences, can you recall?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was murder and robbery.

MR NGUBANE: Were these offences committed in the district of Ndwedwe?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Can you briefly tell us what the motive was for your committing these offences?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was the situation in the township in which I worked.  There was war in the township.  My home and surroundings will be attacked constantly and because my home is along the main road, we were on the front line and my family was always exposed to attacks.
	In that way, I was also effected because even though I may not be at home, my home would be attacked, and I could not help them in any way.  Sometimes these attackers will come at night.  I began asking myself what I could do to protect my family because I was helpless.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hlengwa, if you could just speak a little bit more slowly to assist the Translator.  She's got to keep up as you are speaking, and if you are speaking fast, it makes it very difficult for her to keep up.  Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You have indicated that you were staying in kwaMashu township.  What section was that?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: M Section.

MR NGUBANE: Was it dominated by a certain political party in terms of support?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Which party was the dominant party in M Section?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was the ANC.

MR NGUBANE: Now when you say that you and your family were attacked, were you attacked by any political party or member of any of the Police Forces?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, the attackers would be IFP members.

MR NGUBANE: All right.  Because of that situation that existed, what did you resolve to do in order to contribute towards averting these attacks?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: The first thing that I did was to supply them with ammunition.  This was the little that I could do at the time.

MR LAX: Who did you supply with ammunition?  You say supplied them with ammunition, who is them?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was boys from the neighbourhood, they were neighbourhood boys who acted as a Defence Unit in the area.

MR LAX: What were there names?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I can only mention those that I still remember, there is others that I cannot remember, because they were quite many.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  If you say that they were a Defence Unit, was it a voluntary Defence Unit or was it a formal structure.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Ngubane, I was wanting him to carry on just to mention the names of these people that he can remember.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: One was Sakhele whose surname I have forgotten, the other was Bhu, one other was Mda.

MR LAX: Don't you remember any surnames?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I have forgotten the surnames.  Mda's surname was Radebe, that I still remember.

MR LAX: Is that all?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Those are the people that I still remember, it is just that there were too many.   These people that I mentioned, are the people who would come to me to request ammunition.

MR LAX: What sort of ammunition did you give them?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: For 9 mm guns.  I had a 9 mm Parabellum, so those were the ones that I was able to give to them.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: You have spoken of some Defence Unit and my question is, this Defence Unit, was it a voluntary association of some kind, or was it a formal structure or what was the position?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was not a formal structure, but it had been formed because of the situation in the township.  There was no time to set up a formal structure, but people just volunteered to defend the community because they were also compelled to protect their own families and their own neighbours in the community.
	There was no formal set up that was put in place.  That is how I also started helping out because I was also a member of the community.
	It was rather difficult for me as a person who was employed by the government, to be part of attacks on the communities.  So I resolved to help the community, because my own family was also attacked.  As time went on, on realising the situation was getting worse, and that the weapons that these boys had, were insufficient.
	The people who came to attack, would be armed with guns and they were travelling in cars and because we did not have sufficient guns, it became apparent that we should get more.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  Can you proceed slowly to allow the Interpreter to interpret.
	Now, you said that these people that attacked, carried firearms and used to come at night.  Did that influence your actions, subsequent actions?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is what influenced us.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, as a result of that, what did you resolve to do?