Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

MR CLAASSEN: And the township of Ratanda, what would you say was the leading political sentiments inside the township?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Inside the township there were mixed, there were Inkatha and ANC but the ANC was dominating.  There were many organisations which had members inside the township, but the majority were ANC members.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, could you just briefly - what was the atmosphere like between the residents of the hostel and the people inside Ratanda itself?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Things were very difficult, or the situation was tense because I personally wasn't able to enter the township during that time because there was this fighting.  Not only me myself, even other people from the hostel couldn't easily enter the township.  It's either when you go there you will come back running or you'll come back dead or many bad things might happen to you, or the reason because you're a hostel resident or that you are, also for the reason that you are an IFP member.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, at this meeting you testified that it was decided to concentrate on a bigger target, why was there specifically decided on a bus?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: The reason why we chose to attack the bus is that we know that it carries a bigger number of people compared to a taxi.  That is the reason why we chose a bus and we all supported that.  The other reason was that because they were using buses.

MR CLAASSEN: Who are the "they" you are referring to?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: People who were using buses were ANC members.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, by perpetrating this act, what did you or your party hope to achieve?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: We were going to achieve - I would say firstly, we were going to achieve preventing the ANC from getting more support in the area because people were going to be afraid and decide to go and join the IFP instead of the ANC, and when they come to join our organisation, the IFP, it will be the time where we will be getting stronger and gaining more power in the township and we would have a bigger number of supporters.  I would say that's it.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Hadebe, in your personal capacity, did you stand to gain anything from this attack?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: No, I wasn't going to gain anything.

MR CLAASSEN: Did you have any personal motives, did you know any of the people on the bus, any specific reason for attacking the bus which was selected?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would say I personally if it was myself, taking into account the way I was so frustrated and angry, if the Indunas selected me to go and do it, I would have done the job because I hated the people.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you were frustrated and your spirit was low, what is it that frustrated you and lowered you spirit before this incident?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I was frustrated because our members were being killed, members of the Inkatha Freedom Party and they came straight to me and pointed me right on my face and said you are the one who is left and you are going to be killed.
	All these things frustrated me and I had to leave work that particular day and I was angry with the ANC members even those who were working with us at the factory and who were staying in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say they pointed fingers at you at work, was it during the very same Monday during which the incident took place?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: They pointed at me in the morning of that particular incident, just before the attack, and they said, as I've explained before they killed Mgababa the previous day and they came to work and said you are the only person who is left and we are coming for you.  That frustrated me and made me so angry and I had to leave work.
	The bus was then bombed on the same Monday.  On the next day, on Tuesday, I woke up and I was feeling well and I reported to work.  They still continued to point fingers at me on Tuesday, those who were at work.  Some people didn't come to work.
	They said to me;  we saw you, you bombed the bus.  They said you must hope the sun mustn't set.  I withstood all this and continued working because I knew what I wished to happen had already happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Claassen, you may proceed.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Claassen, just before you proceed, your client has omitted to answer your question.
	Mr Hadebe, the question that originally put to you by your counsel was, did you know anybody on the bus personally?  You have not answered that yet.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would say I knew most of the people in the bus because I worked with them in the same firm and I know which people take that particular bus.  Some of them I know their names, some of them I might know them personally but I will say they are people whom I have seen before and I know them.

CHAIRPERSON: How many buses were there that transported people on any given day, from Escort Bacon Factory to the location?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: In most cases there had been fighting and people didn't report to work as usual, and therefore there were about two buses.  The first one would be full, the second one will maybe be half empty.

CHAIRPERSON: The bus that you planned to attack, was that the first or the second bus on that day?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Any of the two, any one which would possible, would be easy to attack.  We didn't specifically choose a particular bus, the full or the empty one.  I would say one of the two.

CHAIRPERSON: Now during your planning, Mr Biela, was he also working at Escort Bacon Factory?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: No, he wasn't working at the Escort Bacon Factory, he was working in the municipality offices.  I don't know what kind of work he was doing there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was he aware that there were two buses at Escort Bacon Factory?  Did you make him privy of the situation that existed with regard to the transportation of your colleagues who were ANC members?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: He knew about the transport arrangement going back and to work.  He personally even asked me and he also asked other people, so he would ask anybody about the transport arrangement.  So I would say he had information and he knew how we used to go to work.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say that in planning to ambush the bus you gave them all the details that were relevant with regard to how alleged ANC members who were working in your factory travelled in relation to the first and the second bus?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would like to ask you to repeat the question because I don't understand the question.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Did you as a person who was fully informed about the two buses that operated between your factory and your locations, did you make the people who participated in the planning meeting, did you make those people aware of the number of buses that operated between the factory and the location and the capacity in relation to the first and the second bus which operated within the route between the factory and the location?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, I did give them that information.

CHAIRPERSON: And that information was used in the planning of the ambushing of the bus?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Mr Hadebe, there's just a certain point I'd like to clarify.  You testified that there was a meeting on the Sunday evening and when you returned from work on the Monday there was, again you found that a meeting was being held.  At which of these two meetings was the actual bombing of a bus initially discussed?