Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-24

ADV SANDI: Was he also a member of the SDU's?

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: He was commander of the Tambo Section in Slovo.

ADV SANDI: Have you been able to ascertain from the papers as to whether this person has applied for amnesty?

ADV STEENKAMP: Indeed yes Mr Chairman, he has applied for amnesty.

ADV SANDI: Is his name in the list of names you have here?

ADV STEENKAMP: It's coming sir, we must still append that specific amnesty application, it will probably be heard in the next round of the SDU's but we will see what we can do practically to engage that application.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Nkosi, I just want to talk to the Chairman about something for a moment?

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Gcabashe?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, thank you Chair.
	Mr Nkosi, just a couple of really more the structural type of question?  Lusaka A, are they the only structure that had a community structure working with the commander?

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: It was one area that the - in other words the committee was closer to that structure but in other sections they would give the commander more power to make decisions.

ADV GCABASHE: So really Umusamsi Manga was then your liaison person with the community?

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: What used to happen Chairperson is that the commander used to meet with us.  If we went to his section there would be another leadership.  I am simply trying to indicate that the safety of the people should be something that is taken care of by the people in that area but the commander was always with us in the central command but he should work hand in hand with the soldiers and other people.  Perhaps the committee of the block or the area would work hand in hand with them as well but what's important is that in their duties, daily duties, they had to be provided with food, food had to be prepared etc.  They were not sleeping at home but they were using a common venue.  They would come together now and then and continue with their activities but the situation at Lusaka was such that decisions that were taken were taken including the commander himself.

ADV GCABASHE: You refer I think when you talk about Annexure 4 and the people on that list, the central command, I just want to relate the names.  I've come across Thokoza Central Command in the documentation that we have and that is essentially the structure that you were trying to explain to us, the one that you sat on and all the other commanders then came back to?

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: If we look at the Annexure form, this is the Annexure 4 and it indicates that all the committee structures used to come together and this is the one indicating who was representing which section.

ADV GCABASHE: Thanks, that's cleared my queries on the structures and how the structures worked.  The last question really relates to something that you have dealt with.  The way in which we handle applications that we look at incidents and we try and relate the individual to a particular incident and as you have rightly pointed out it is a difficulty that we are really going to have to work with because just from the evidence we heard yesterday it's become apparent that it's difficult for the individual to say on day such and such this is what I did or so many people may have been killed.  Even at that very broad level however, is it possible at all to be able to say "we later on, as the central command, heard about particular incidents which we now know we can tie to Lusaka A to Beirut".  Are you able to assist us at all with linking some of those incidents or reports to particular areas or particular activities by the commanders and their teams?

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: What happened is that all these amnesty applications that we have made are such that they refer to a commander and the area in which he operated and under each area there are incidents covering the area itself etc.  We indicate who the commander is and how many people were involved when such an incident happened and what happened, who got injured and who died, yes we did try to do that.  In other words all these applications go just as I have just explained.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Nkosi.

CHAIRPERSON: You had said that Thokoza was divided into thirteen sections and together with Phola Park that made it fourteen.  Now those thirteen sections, are they different from the ones which are depicted on the map that we've got now, Exhibit 1?  I think I've counted ten or so, I might have counted very quickly?  Would you just have a look at the map?  I assume that Thokoza proper would be within the triangle and that Phola Park of course is on the top there.
	Ja your list Annexure 4 indicates 13, 13 sections including Phola Park.

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: What appears there should be unit F Extension 2, Phola Park is actually linked up.  On the other side you actually look at Tambo Slovo being linked up so that's were the numbers - the list runs down straight, that when you split unit F from Extension 2, then you actually have two on that one because I think maybe - the working relationship here is very close if one considers sometimes interchangeably, its region is one or sometimes separated, even here as well but the rest of the others you have at least a consistent on the entire one but I think ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Mzizi the main representative of the IFP that you negotiated around the peace efforts and so forth?

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: It was first of all Mr Mzizi but later on only his wife remained, Gertrude Mzizi.  I met Mr Mzizi first and later on it was more his wife involved in the process.

ADV GCABASHE: Is the husband still alive?

ADV STEENKAMP: ...(inaudible) Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike was off.

CHAIRPERSON: And I assume that they would be in a position to give us an idea of the perception from that side insofar as this conflict was concerned?

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: We would be very pleased if the IFP could come forward and explain because we cannot speak on their behalf.  We are saying things as we saw them.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt.  This was the same with Mzizi I've met last Friday who was indicating that he is representing the community as it then existed in Thokoza.  He indicated that they will definitely make a submission but I haven't had any further communication with them.  I suppose they're still preparing their submission.  I will inform ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that will be a good idea.   I don't know if you can hear, perhaps you must put on the headphones then you should be able to hear a bit better on channel 2.  Advocate Steenkamp has just indicated that Mr Mzizi has apparently been in touch with himself and has indicated that he will in fact be making a submission on behalf of part of the community so it looks as if hopefully we will get a further perspective on this matter.  Mr Sibeko have you got any re-examination before we conclude?

MR SIBEKO: Let me consult the file please ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll take the luncheon adjournment and we will reconvene at quarter past two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, there is only one aspect that we have lost sight of and I'll beg leave from the Commission that we ...(indistinct) Mr Nkosi from that point.