Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen.  Yesterday I had requested the Counsel for the Applicants and the - Mr Mapoma who is leading the evidence on behalf of the Commission to discuss the issues and see whether they can, as far as is practicable, limit those issues.  I gather that that was not done.  It was agreed that it was going to be done this morning.  At 9 o'clock Mr Madasa who appears for the Applicants was not yet present.
	The explanation that he has offered is that he was held up in the traffic.  It seems to me that it is important that Mr Mapoma and Mr Madasa get together at some point to see whether they can agree on certain issues so as to limit the ambit of the evidence that is going to be lead.  I hope they will be able to do so in due course, in view of the fact that they did not hold the required conference.
	We had intimated to them that we will allow them 30 minutes time to see whether they can deal - they can get together at this stage and deal with that - well rather whether they can hold the conference to deal with the issues that need to be canvassed.  But it has occurred to us that whatever they agree upon, Mr Sonti who is presently giving evidence will have to continue giving his evidence and we've come to the conclusion that perhaps it is desirable that we finish the evidence of Mr Sonti and thereafter we can take a break at which point they can discuss - they can hold their conference and come to some agreement as to what the issues are.
MR ?: Mr Sonti, you are still under oath, I'm just reminding you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, have you finished your evidence?

MR MADASA: No, Mr Chairman, a few questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.

MR MADASA: I was not finished yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead then.

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, when you completed the application form for Amnesty were you assisted?  Did you receive legal assistance?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct, sir.

MR MADASA: Who assisted you, or from where did the assistance come from?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: We were assisted at the Shell House, the ANC headquarters.

MR MADASA: So you are saying you were advised as to how you should complete the form?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, we were advised as to how to fill the form.

MR MADASA: Now, in relation to the offences which you have admitted.  What was your political objective when you captured those people?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: There was nothing that I was going to gain in as far as that was concerned.  It's just that all these incidents took place during the time of violence.  In other words there wasn't any objective that I was after or I will have.

MR MADASA: Whom were you helping?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just hold on a second please, I missed something here.  I've got it now.  Could you just repeat your - you were asked, what was the political objective that you wanted to achieve in capturing these people, is that right?  You remember that question, you've just been asked that question?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Your answer.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: What I said, there was nothing that I wanted to gain as such except that we were protecting the community during the time of violence.  The community was not protected at the time.

MR MADASA: When you captured those people, whom were you helping?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: What I think is, we were helping the community since the community was not protected.

MR MADASA: How was the community going to benefit from you capturing those people?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: There was nothing for the community to have gained but I think there would have been peace from that act because there are so many things that were happening and taking place at that particular time.  So peace would have been achieved in other words.

MR MADASA: Were you present or did you overhear an order issued for the elimination of those people?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, I don't quite remember because if I were there or present, maybe I would have taken part as well but what I did, was that I shall go and locate Blanko's relatives so they could come.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, would you please listen to the question and then answer the question.  The question is, were you present when the order to eliminate these people was issued or did you overhear that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I wasn't there, sir.

MR MADASA: Yesterday when you were asked by Mr Chair whether the fact that there were eventually eliminated surprised you, you said you were surprised because of their age?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, that is true.

MR MADASA: By that are you saying if you were present when the order was issued you would not have carried it out, in view of their age?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I could have followed the order because an order is an order.

MR MADASA: Was you opinion, with regards to the age of the victims going to stop you from carrying out the order?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, he has just told us that if he had
been there, he would have carried out the order.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, yesterday when we adjourned, you indicated that there was a certain matter that you wanted to mention and I would ask you to make a note of that so that you can mention that matter today.  Do you remember that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, would you go ahead and mention that matter, if you still want to do so.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already said, and explained that Mr Buthelezi, the one who resided in Block F is the one who was organising this whole thing.  The lady by the name of  Bulelwa was opposing this suggestion or the view, but as far as I think, as a Xhosa and this was pointed towards the Xhosa or it was something that was being discussed by the Xhosas but it did happen as planned but prior to that there were rumours that Mr Buthelezi has been seen with Chaba before.
	He has been seen socialising with a certain group and that group comprised of Inkatha and Internal Stability, that was the third force.  Chaba is the group, an enemy and Comrade Nchebe was captured one night, one particular night where he was seen because the Internal Stability did not know Mr Nchebe's house in Block D.
	Mr Buthelezi was seen in that casper that was coming to arrest Mr Nchebe but they found him quickly.  The thing that makes me say all these things or these incidents that happened, it was inspired from Block F, it's because of the kind of guns that they had and the particular pistol or the particular gun that was used to kill people of Block F who were burnt in a caravan was a type of a gun that was used by the Internal Stability.  R1 in other words.
	The one that killed people in Block F who were burnt in a caravan.  I had a picture in my mind that all that was happening and all what we are about today here, was cooked and from my understanding in Moleleki Extension 2 at the time the soldiers who used R1 and the Police.  Let me just point out without hesitation about ANC [inaudible], they were gangsters.  We went on in all these incidences that were occurring there.  The general sales tax were stopped by the then Government.

CHAIRPERSON: Is what you are talking about now still relevant to what we were here about?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I'm coming to that, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Come to the point.