Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

B J MPONDO: I took part in stabbing him because I wasalso a member of the SDU and at that time we were very angry regardingthe way Tsietsie reacted when we asked him questions.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did he react Mr Mpondo when you askedhim questions?

B J MPONDO: When we questioned him he didn't answerus.  What he did was to try to run away.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that was sufficient for you to promptyou to stab him.

B J MPONDO: Yes, that decision we took.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your evidence you have stated that youreceived orders from your leaders that you were to protect thecommunity?

B J MPONDO: Yes, it is like that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how were these orders given to you?

B J MPONDO: We met as the youth of Maokeng and alsoas the youth of the ANC and we decided that because the policeare not acting against the 3 million gang we have to establishour own forces which would protect the nation or the community.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was this meeting whereat you met asa youth and came with that decision?

B J MPONDO: This happened, I think it was in November1990, yes, it was between November and December 1990.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And to your knowledge, when did Tsietsiebecome a member of the 3 million gang?

B J MPONDO: I am not sure when he became a member ofthe 3 million gang, but when time went by I came to know him asa member of the 3 million gang.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when did you come to know him as a memberof the 3 million gang, what year was it?

B J MPONDO: We often saw the 3 million gang membersworking(?) here at court.  In 1991 I had a case against me whichI was attending, that was a public violence case, and that iswhere I started seeing the 3 million gang members and I also sawTsietsie there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he frequently in the company of the 3million gang?

B J MPONDO: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: What were the 3 million gangs doing at
court?

B J MPONDO: I don't know, because they were very popularin town, in every place.  You never find them absent in any place. They were full in town.

JUDGE WILSON: Very popular you said.  One other point. Can you tell me the names of the people who were with you, themore than 20 people who were with you when you stabbed the deceased?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I remember my two comrades with whomI was from home.  It was Comrade Tsediso and Comrade Daniel.

JUDGE WILSON: Daniel who?

B J MPONDO: It was Tsediso Gubuwe and Daniel Mafole(?).

JUDGE WILSON: And who else?

B J MPONDO: I can't remember the others.  There wereso many.

JUDGE WILSON: But you had gone looking for them, you hadgone looking for these senior men who were going to assist you. You now say you can't remember any of their names?

B J MPONDO: The comrades I went to look for I didn'tmeet them until I met this other comrades who were at Jackie'sTavern.

JUDGE WILSON: And who were they?

B J MPONDO: They were the members of the SDU.

JUDGE WILSON: I want their names.

B J MPONDO: I can't remember their names fully.  Becauseour comrades usually used call names.  That is the members ofthe SDU.  We usually call them call names like Tsiga, they werestrange names, I can't remember them well.

JUDGE WILSON: You know that if you want to get amnestyyou must make a full and frank disclosure?

B J MPONDO: What I am telling you is the truth.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpondo, did you not live together withthese members of the SDU, were you not brought up within the sameenvironment?

B J MPONDO: I used to live together with them, but notin one area, because at Pumulung, Pumulung is a very big placeand we were in groups.  You find that when we meet I don't knowthem any more.  I wouldn't identify this other one's name is thisand so on.  We are only a group.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How many members of the SDUs stayed in Pumulung?

B J MPONDO: The SDUs were founded on the youth and therewere very many youths at Pumulung.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was every youth in Pumulung a member of theSDU?

B J MPONDO: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what proportion of the youth in Pumulungduring your time was affiliated to the SDU unit?

B J MPONDO: It was the youth from Pumulung and otherswere the members of the ANC and others were normally the supportersof the ANC.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Let me rephrase my question.  What I wantto find out is of the total youth in your time which was in Pumulung,what was the percentage which was affiliated to the SDU?  Wasit 50% of the youth during your time who were members of the SDU,was it 10%?

B J MPONDO: I really can't estimate.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Didn't the SDUs, were they not under harassmentby the police?

B J MPONDO: They were harassed by police.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did they not operate somehow in a
clandestine manner?  In a secret manner?

B J MPONDO: They were not secret about anything.  Theyused to harass us.  They didn't hide themselves.

JUDGE MGOEPE: No, I mean members of SDUs did not theyoperate - because of the harassment of the police, didn't theyoperate in a clandestine manner, in a less open fashion?

B J MPONDO: The members of the SDU, because of the harassmentfrom the police, we were really hiding ourselves.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And you used some code names as it were, some of you.

B J MPONDO: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was it easy to know everybody who was amember of the SDU?

B J MPONDO: Yes, especially when we have met.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was it easy to know all the members of theSDU?

B J MPONDO: No.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpondo, I only want to add that you arecorrect.  I've made a mistake.  The killing of Mr Dividi tookplace after the killing of Tsietsie.  You are correct in the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Matsepe, have you any questions to ask?

UNKNOWN: Do you remember when Adv Mpshe asked you about the form which you filled in.  Do you remember when you appliedfor amnesty, you filled in a form?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I remember that.

UNKNOWN: He asked you about a question which he readto you.  This is the question and I will read it in English. It is question 11(b) on this form.  Before I ask you this question,I want you to explain who filled in this form for
you.   Could you please answer that question first?

B J MPONDO: Comrade Mathabathule helped me to fill inthe form.

UNKNOWN: It is written here, "Who gave you theinstruction?".  I am talking about the first paragraph. In paragraph (a) it says, "Who gave you the instructions?"and you said, "I received this instruction from Petrus Mashabeof 62 Gelukwaarts".  And you were asked again, "If so,state the particulars of such an order or such an instruction". When Mashabe explained to you about what is written here, didhe do it in English or in Sotho?

B J MPONDO: He did it in Sotho.

UNKNOWN: Because here it is written that, "Wasit an order, instructions or an approval?"  Therefore myquestion to you is, when you gave Mashabe this answer, that isthe one person who helped you fill in this form.  Because it talksabout a person who gave you an instruction, or who gave you theapproval to perpetrate the incident you perpetrated.  My questionis, when you answered this question, are you trying to say thatit was Mashabe who said to you on that day, go and kill Leboko,or what were you saying?  We perpetrated this murder because ourCommanders like Mashabe would approve it?

B J MPONDO: I was trying to explain that Comrade Mashabewas a Commander, so he was the one who gave us orders to protectthe community from the attacks of the 3 million gang.

UNKNOWN: Let me ask this question in this way.  Wereyou trying to tell the Committee that on the 4th when Leboko waskilled, did Mashabe tell you to kill Leboko?

B J MPONDO: No, I wasn't explaining that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATSEPE

UNKNOWN: Who completed this form, whose handwritingis it?  Could you perhaps have a look?

B J MPONDO: It is Comrade Mashabe Thulu's handwriting.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he also present when you made your supplementaryaffidavit?

B J MPONDO: Yes, he was present.