Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR LANDMAN: Were you able to check whether he in fact had set the clock for five o'clock?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: He was already out of the car coming towards me, I didn't have time to go back and check.  After he told me about five o'clock, we left.

MR LANDMAN: Now Mr Matshididi, in the ensuing explosion two men were killed and a number of others were injured according to the police reports.  Was it your intention to cause the deaths of anybody on that day?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: My lord, it was not our intention to kill, it was just a mistake for those people to die.

MR LANDMAN: Was it your intention that the bomb should go off whilst people were leaving the stadium and walking back to their vehicles?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It was not our intention.  The intention was for the bomb to explode before people could leave the stadium.

MR LANDMAN: And how did you feel about the fact that people had been killed and others injured in the explosion?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We felt very bad, we didn't intend to kill, it was not meant to be that way.

MR LANDMAN: When you participated in the planting of the bomb at Ellis Park Stadium, were you acting in your capacity as a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Did you consider that you were carrying out the orders given to you by your commander who was also a member of uMkhonto weSizwe?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.  I was executing the orders given to me by my commander.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, would you have known what orders had been given to Mr Dumakude by his commander?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It was difficult to know.

MR LANDMAN: Could you explain to the Committee why it would have been difficult to know?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I have explained already that as a member you do not question orders.  At that given moment when instructions or orders are taken out, you just accept them.  Who the orders come from you do not enquire.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Landman, can I interpose for a moment here?  You say, Mr Matshididi, as a member you do not question orders.  Where did you think Mr Dumakude got his orders from?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I think he got the orders from his superiors.  He could not take a decision by himself.

ADV SANDI: Who did you think were his superiors?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I do not know.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Matshididi, you and Mr Dumakude were both members of uMkhonto weSizwe.  As members of uMkhonto weSizwe where would your commander have received his instructions from?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Commander Dumakude never told us where he got the instructions from but he knew that there were many seniors, many of his seniors within uMkhonto weSizwe.

MR LANDMAN: Have you at any stage doubted that uMkhonto weSizwe had instructed in some fashion Dumakude to carry out this attack?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I have never had that feeling Sir.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  That's the evidence at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, as we have done in other hearings after cross-examination, the two victims present have indicated that they may wish to also ask a few questions if that may be permitted?  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Matshididi, if I understand you correctly, your participation on that day on the 2nd July 1988, you were acting under orders of Mr Dumakude, is that right?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: He was your immediate superior within the unit to which you belonged?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: When you were made aware that you were to go on a bombing operation, was there any room for discussion of this operation within your unit?  In other words, did you discuss the operation before you set out on the Saturday morning?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We discussed this operation, as I've indicated earlier on, by going out and checking the place in front of Ellis Park.  That is the only discussion we had.

ADV PRIOR: Was it ever discussed what the effect of the bomb once exploded would be, what effect that might be?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I never asked questions of that kind.

ADV PRIOR: Let me put it this way - were you aware of the size of the bomb that was to be used on that Saturday?  In other words did you know how much explosives there were, the effect, how far the effect would be or the radius of the blast, did you know anything about that or did you ask about that?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I did not ask.

ADV PRIOR: What did you mean and please if you could explain for us, when you said when Dumakude approached you about assisting with this bomb, he said that the struggle must be directed towards the white people because you brothers and sisters, presumably black people, were being killed in the townships?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: By that I understood that people were dying in the township and we could not fight white people because they did not live in the township now.  But that I understood the order to me we can reach the town and apply the struggle to the whites so that they can understand what we are going through.

ADV PRIOR: Well correct me if I'm mistaken, wasn't the essence of what he's told you was that because black people were dying in the townships, so too white people should be killed where they found themselves?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I did not understand the order to mean that.

ADV PRIOR: And you say special - well certain precautions were taken not to injure human life?  That is when you parked the car behind the bus?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: When you parked the vehicle with the bomb behind the bus were there any persons in that vicinity that you saw, either walking past or standing nearby?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: When we drove into that street there were no people.  There was no one in the bus either.  There were traffic cops and policemen but far away from the vicinity.

ADV PRIOR: What precautions did you take if any to preclude injury or loss of life?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We were just assured that we placed a bomb there where people were not moving around.  So that is the only precaution we took because the instruction was that we should put the bomb there before people could get out of the stadium.

ADV PRIOR: According to the document put up in the bundle at page - that's the first indexed bundle, Mr Chairman, that includes the application of the applicant.  At page 21 and 22 there were 31 persons who were slightly injured, there were four persons who were seriously injured and two persons who died as a result of the bomb blast.  What I want to suggest to you that that would necessarily imply that those persons were sufficiently close to the bomb to sustain injuries.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I have already indicated that when we placed the bomb there were no people and there were still noises inside the stadium.  Whether the people passed through the car after we have planted the bomb I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you take any steps whatsoever to find out what time the rugby match stopped?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I don't know what time the match was going to stop, he only said the bomb will explode at five o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: And after the match had stopped everybody would be streaming out of the stadium, wouldn't they?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Yes at the end of each match people get out of the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: I repeat my question.  Did you yourself take any steps to find out what time the match ended?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I personally did not take any step whatsoever.

ADV PRIOR: According to a statement made by the investigating officer at the time, a certain Mr Britz, Mr Chairman that appears at page 23 and 24 of the bundle, that is the index bundle, the first bundle.  He indicates at paragraph 7 of his statement that the referee blew his final whistle at 17.01, that was one minute past five and the bomb exploded it is by estimation at about 17.10.  Are you able to comment on that?