Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: May I just explain Mr Chairman that photocopies have been made in the portrait fashion as they call it in computer language and not the - what's the other one - landscape fashion, so page 1 and 2 should be placed together to form the big page.  The time column we have taken the liberty of omitting in the typed version Mr Chairman because mostly we believe that it's not really relevant what time the incidents took place, we left that out.
	Mr Botha, this Exhibit A starts at 1981 and ends at 1993.  I hope that I counted correctly but Sunday just before we came down to Durban I drew up an index and I counted the incidents as it is put there in brackets in the index and I referred to in general a list of politically related incidents in Port Natal.  In 1981 there were 9, 1982 there were 8, 1983 there were 9, 1984 it was doubled to 18, 1985 there were 34, 1986 there were 36 of which you have given evidence today and 1987 there were 17 and then there was an increase from 1988 to 21, 1989 - 23, 1990 - 32, 1991 - 35 and in 1992 when the peace negotiations were started there were 52 incidents and in 1993 there were four.
	I thought I'd mention this Mr Chairman, all of this is in the index, I just placed it on record now, it's in parenthesis after the year and then I've got the page number reference to that.  I believed I've counted that correctly, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Botha, how complete would you say was Exhibit A or is Exhibit A with regards to the entries of incidents?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I think the document is reasonably complete.

MR VISSER: It is possible that there were other incidents of which an entry was not made in here, is that what you're saying, is that what you're saying?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The incidents which are indeed in here, they did happen?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Could we just address this document in your evidence?

MR MALAN: Excuse me, I want to know can we investigate this with deeper analysis, there were certain incidents such as false flags like the blowing up of terrorists, is that also mentioned in here?  Would those be actions of the terrorists?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I was just about to address that aspect.

MR MALAN: Excuse me Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: No not at all Mr Chairperson, I appreciate it if you ask questions because then do not know how to offer the evidence so as to satisfy your question, please do not apologise.

MR VISSER: When we have done with this, would you please give a lay out to the Committee as to your insights with regard to Operation Butterfly which later led to the Ramlakan case and specifically the roles of the victims in this matter.  We will get to that, but at this instance we would like to address the document itself, Exhibit A, so that you could give certain references to the Committee in as far as it might be relevant in the present application and if we have regard in the first instance at page 12, and we speak of 1985.  We know in that year there were 34 incidents and what was the first incident on that page.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It's the incident of the 18th April 1985, an explosion at the Spar Foodliner, Trust Bank Arcade in St Georges Street, Durban.

MR VISSER: Yes, you see there on the right hand column, there's a reference to the High Supreme Court in Pietermaritzburg and there's a case number.  What is that case number?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That case number is the number of the State vs Butu Buthelezi and others.

MR VISSER: And we refer to that as the Ramlakan case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And that is Case CC70/86?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: If we just look at Exhibit A on page 14, the last item there.  It looks like Umlazi Bakery.  On the 31st July 1985, under that same case number, that was that part of the Ramlakan case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And on the next page, page 15, the first item there, Home of Minister Rajabansi - Attack with Explosives, Suspected mini-limpet.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And these two last items on that page - Two mini-limpets explode in O.K. Bazaars in the one in West Street and the last one is Mini-Limpet explodes in Game.  That's the Game shopping centre, not true?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: West Street.  On page 16 - Mr Chairman are you able to keep up?  On page 16 the first item, that's also a part of the Ramlakan case.  Spar Foodliner, Trust Bank Building, West Street, Durban.
	And then we go to page 17, the third last item there is the Mobeni Post Office, Grimsbury Road, Mobeni.  That was part of the Ramlakan case, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And the second last item is the next one, Chatsworth Magistrates Court?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And then we can refer you to page 18.  First item on that page is Albert Street, Volkswagen Combi and that's under the same case number?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Sorry, we're running a bit ahead of ourselves now but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did you deal with page 13?

MR VISSER: I haven't Mr Chairman, in fact I'm coming to that right now because I'm dealing with it slightly on a different basis and the basis as you will immediately hear from my next question.
	The members or the activists who acted under the code name Operation Butterfly, were they also divided into separate units?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And those units or people who were part of the unit, did they commit acts of terror for which they were charged but not necessarily in the Ramlakan case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I do not understand the question.

MR VISSER: What I'm aiming at is the following and now let's look at page 13.  Those two - in the first place, the Stanley Bhila incident, maybe I'm expressing myself badly, Stanley Bhila, he's mentioned in the first item on page 13?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: He is also under the case number of the Ramlakan case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In terms of Exhibit D there's an extract submitted there to this Committee pertaining to the charge sheet against accused number 7 and we believe that is Mr Bhila?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now the fact of the matter is, in the Ramlakan case Mr Bhila was accused of these items that we find in Exhibit D, but were those the only things he was accused of or was he also accused of terrorism by only being part of the group etc.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, unless I can have a look at the charge sheet, I can tell you exactly what he was accused of, but if I do remember correctly, it was the complete spectrum on the law against terrorism.

MR VISSER: And as far as incidents could be linked to specific accused, were there then accused for that specific act of terror?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The only point I'm trying to make is in the case of Zondo for example, in your application you said that one of the most prominent incidents which took place under the command of Operation Butterfly was the Amanzimtoti bomb?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: But that case was not part of the Ramlakan case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, that's correct, it wasn't.