Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

ADV VISSER: Yes, I have just been reminded by my attorney that there is one or two, there are one or two points, Mr Chairman, but it won't take long.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you will finish and then we can make suggestions.

MR BLACK: Yes. Mr Chairman, I have just been informed, the investigating officer, Capt Molapo, says he can identify the body. I don't know on what basis, and I would have to speak to him, but he is present. Perhaps he could assist my learned friend and myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Black, as you know you lead evidence on behalf of the Commission, which means that, I mean, the evidence which comes to us must come the correct way, and if something can help, you will have to consult with those people and then you know, let us receive evidence the correct way. You will have to consult with them.

MR BLACK: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, there are two points.  The first is this. In your evidence you stated at one point that Koos van den Berg was in charge.  Now I just, I don't want to go too deeply into this, but I just want to put it to you that on the scene where the incident took place on that day, Col Erwee was in charge.  Would you agree with that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Did that question come to me, Sir? Is it directed to me?

ADV VISSER: It is directed to you, yes.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Can you restate again, because I was not listening attentively.

ADV VISSER: You said in your evidence in chief that at some stage, I am not sure to what stage you referred, Koos van den Berg was in charge. All that I am putting to you is that Koos van den Berg was never in charge of this operation.  The day of the incident, Col Erwee was in charge.  Do you agree with that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Erwee was in charge and Koos van den Berg was just there?

ADV VISSER: Yes, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think the interpretation was that Koos van den Berg wasn't there.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Was there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Wasn't?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Was there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Wasn't there.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairman, Ms Khampepe must be correct, because Koos van den Berg wasn't there.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I interpreted it, ja, it is was not there.

ADV VISSER: Yes.  In your - I am not sure whether this is now the original, yes. In part of your original application, which is now the one before the Committee, there was a paragraph 27, which did not find its way into the document which is in our bundle.  And in that document, in paragraph 27, I don't know whether you have it in front of you, Mr Chairman, it is not the one in the bundle, it is the other one. It is what you described as now being the application before you, and it is the annexure attached to that.  Now in that paragraph, let me refresh your memory, you said, about two months ago, that is to say during September 1996, you went to Koos van den Berg, to his home, in Pietersburg, and you expressed some fears to him.  Do you remember that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I used to go to his place in many instances. I went to him and said to him the Truth Commission has come to me, we will just see how the process goes.  All the time he should be shocked, he must be shocked by something in your life.

ADV VISSER: Well, I don't know what that means. But is it true that you expressed a fear that you might be arrested?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I was not afraid because I was fearing to be arrested, but I was made afraid by explaining the truth in public.  The shock was because of what I should come and tell in public, what happened and what was my role.

ADV VISSER: So the words ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Visser, I think he is speaking of the fear, not so much the shock but the fear. I think that is the word he would have used if he were to speak in English.  He would have said, spoken about the fear rather than the shock.  I just want to ask you, did you not tell Koos van den Berg that you were concerned that you might be arrested or you are afraid that you might be arrested?  Did you not tell him that?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I told him that we will be arrested because of what we did and if we were arrested, there will be no problem.

ADV VISSER: And if you were going to be arrested there will be no problem, you say?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If I did something and if I was arrested, I have got to face the reality.I don't know how to answer it correctly, I don't have the correct answer to that.

ADV VISSER: You see, that was my first question to you in cross-examination:  did you do anything wrong?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes, I would say I did do something wrong, because I assaulted those people.

ADV VISSER: And did you tell Mr Van den Berg that you were afraid that the ANC would cause you some harm?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't remember because I saw him many times, we are so used to each other, I don't know that I did say that to him or not.

ADV VISSER: No, no, no.  No, no, please.  You are referring to one incident here, and don't come with the story you saw him many times.  You are referring to one particular incident here, and it was so important that you put it into an affidavit.  Now I am talking about that incident. I am asking you, did you tell him that you were fearful or what is the word that I should use, Mr Chairman, concerned that the ANC may cause you harm.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I would say yes.

ADV VISSER: Now you see I want to give you an opportunity to tell us; was any pressure put on you by anybody, to give any evidence here which you gave here today?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: There was no pressure from anybody coming and giving evidence.  There was no person who forced me.  I just volunteered to come and to give evidence here.

ADV VISSER: You see, Mr Fuchs denies your allegation that he shot or did anything, for that matter, to the wounded man on the 10th of July. He denies that.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: He denies that, but I say it was like that.

ADV VISSER: And he was fairly stupid, wasn't he, to shoot this person in full view of members of the DKV Defence Force, who for all practical purposes he didn't even know, in full view.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know how to answer that question, because I say what I saw happening.

ADV VISSER: But didn't you think he was being stupid about it?  The man was dying anyway.  I mean, he had three gaping bullet wounds in his chest.  Why go and shoot him another one?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know why he shot him, because he could have just taken him to the hospital.

ADV VISSER: Well, I want to put it to you that it never happened, as you explained it.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I say it happened.

ADV VISSER: Now the last point is this; you knew very well why you received the R2 000,00, don't you?  You received it as a reward because your superiors thought that you were exceptionally brave that day, by having done what you did.  Driving the combi under life-threatening circumstances with armed terrorists in the car, who were ready, cock-ready to start firing and throw hand-grenades and they thought that you should be rewarded and they gave you R2 000,00.  That's why you received it.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I wouldn't have denied that for that
R2 000,00,I wouldn't deny that offer because I was at work.

ADV VISSER: Yes, we just find it peculiar that you didn't tender that evidence when you had the opportunity.
	No further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Except that, if my interpretation is correct, he did say that they gave him the money and said you did a good job or something like that.  So really ...

ADV VISSER: But you asked him some questions, Mr Chairman, and then he told a different story. In fact, this is in his favour.  This is in his favour, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?