Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: He claims that you provided him with a firearm, a 9 mm pistol I think?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And he claims that you specifically asked him or ordered him together with Mr Zakhile Mkehle to eliminate a person by the name of Mr Msome, who was reputedly an ANC leader at Mpumalanga?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, Mr Ndlovu says that he was operative in a couple of areas.  I don't know if you are aware of this, he claims he was operative in Mpumalanga, in the Pietermaritzburg area and then also just outside of KwaMashu?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, he claims when he was in these areas, that he was involved in the IFP's military onslaught against the UDF?  That is correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: The last area I want to cover is an area that you have touched on.  That is I want you to refer your mind back to the time Gideon Zulu was holding a rally in eSikhawini and the information suggests that he was very embarrassed and cross because the ANC had attacked, or the UDF had attacked that rally and he was very, very cross about that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, the fifth applicant, Mr Mbambo says that he was with Gideon Zulu at the time of that attack, in close proximity to him and he says that Gideon Zulu was so cross that a meeting was called after that rally, amongst the IFP leadership to specifically discuss what strategies to adopt after that.  Are you aware of this meeting?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would not say no.

MR WILLS: But you can't remember it specifically?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: I don't know if you are in position to comment on this, and if you can, please do so, but the information that I've got from the fifth and the sixth applicants, that is Mbambo and Mkhize, is that as a direct consequence of this attack, Gideon Zulu gave the specific orders to say that we must act like the ANC attack, and just go and attack the ANC areas generally, can you remember anything to that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, he also indicated that to me as well, apart from them about that event at the rally.

MR WILLS: Just to be clear, it seems and sorry if I have confused you, my  instructions aren't that you were at that meeting but that as a result of that attack and he was so cross, Zulu, Gideon Zulu told these people to just literally attack all of the ANC areas.  You confirm that you were subsequently told the same thing by Gideon Zulu, that he had reported this to the persons there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions at this stage.

MR WILLS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Wills.  Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the witness?

MR NGUBANE: Mr Luthuli, I want us to start briefly with the background.  You say that you were released from Robben Island in 1979, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And when did you join the IFP?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say in 1980 if I am not mistaken.

MR NGUBANE: You only became active in the IFP in 1985, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now my understanding of your joining the IFP is that the ANC leadership in Robben Island regarded the IFP as the home so to speak, of the people who had believed in the aims and objectives of the ANC, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: In other words it was perceived as an internal wing of the ANC at the time when it was banned?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: So when you joined the IFP, you were an ANC man at heart, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: When the UDF was formed, you knew exactly that its aims was to advance the aims and objectives of the ANC?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: But when you became active in the IFP, you wanted to eliminate the UDF, is that what you said?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now, can you advance the reason why you had to eliminate the UDF whereas you were ANC at heart?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say there was now a misunderstanding between these two parties and I had to take it upon myself to decide as to on which side do I fall.

MR NGUBANE: And what influenced you to make a choice to join the IFP rather than the UDF?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: At that time I was a very staunch Zulu supporter and the organisation itself being Inkatha and its founder, being a person who spoke Zulu, I came at a point where I wondered as to whether the UDF was fighting the person because he was Zulu speaking.

MR NGUBANE: But Mr Luthuli, you were a long standing member of the ANC, you knew the objectives of the ANC, you knew something about non-racialism and non-tribalism, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you believed in that, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: But all of a sudden you turn to Inkatha just because it had this Zuluness in it, is it correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Is it not the position that you turned to Inkatha because Inkatha had money?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that since your release from Robben Island, you did not have any source of income?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And when you decided to be active in Inkatha in 1985, was the money issued discussed at any stage?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: But when you decided to be active in Inkatha, you knew exactly that that involved the killing of people, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you want us to believe that you wanted to undertake this mammoth task without any financial benefit?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were you ever paid for your activities in Inkatha?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say I was getting the monthly salary as a person who was working in the Inkatha offices.

MR NGUBANE: When did you get paid for the first time by Inkatha?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: When I was at Caprivi.

MR NGUBANE: And did that make your position better, financially?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I was not shaken financially because my father is known to be owning properties and therefore I was not a burden to him.
	I too, did not have a financial problem.

MR NGUBANE: If you say that you had no financial problem, did your father give you a monthly income or what was the position?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, he would give me money any time.

MR NGUBANE: And was that ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ngubane, if I could just ask one question on the point that you are on.  You say that you got a monthly salary from the IFP, was this a consistent amount each month, did you get a salary slip, tax deductions, that sort of thing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I did not have a pay slip.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: And you talk about big fishes in the ANC, do you know anything about that, people referred to as the big fish?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Big fish?

MR NGUBANE: In the ANC, yes?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would actually say maybe you are referring to ...

MR NGUBANE: Well, during your days of activity in the IFP, were you familiar with that term?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I got lost a little bit Mr Chairman.