Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-24

UNKNOWN: The purpose of this action was to destabilise the ANC and other liberation movements 
against the then Government and it must be seen against the subsequent state of emergency with the 
purpose of combatting the state of terror and intimidation.
	The ANC and other liberation movements made an attempt to make the country ungovernable as 
part of their political revolt.
	The legal nature of the act is apparent from the information above.  With regard to the purpose, 
the purpose was to eliminate an ANC supporter and terrorists and in addition to eliminate a safe house for 
terrorists.  This act was necessary with the purpose of to eliminate an ANC organiser in view of the state of 
emergency and the war and the state of the security situation in the country.
	This was necessary because of the strategy of the SAP at that time against the ANC which 
attempted to destabilise the State.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Was this act also a part of the anti-revolutionary, or counter-revolutionary 
approach of the State at that time?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it was.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Was the instruction in terms of which you acted, if you page to page 111, what were 
your instructions?
It was because of the general instruction given by Brigadier Victor which is referred to in the general 
background as well as Marius Schoon's instructions with regard to which
previous testimony has been given?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 7

UNKNOWN: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

ADV DU PLESSIS: .

JUDGE WILSON: Were you able to ascertain who actually killed Tsele?

UNKNOWN: As far as I could determine from Mamasela, he and Bafana both shot Mr Tsele, or fired 
shots.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Cronje, on page 99 
of your application, you state that Tsele was a UDF organiser.  Now my question to you is was this 
confirmed by yourself before you could undertake the operation?

UNKNOWN: Yes Mr Chairman.  We kept a file on Tsele and it was in fact confirmed.  This file was 
compiled by some of my investigative officers and was comprised of information by informants.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: May this file be made available to this Committee?

UNKNOWN: These files were all destroyed, Mr Chairman.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who destroyed them?

UNKNOWN: This was subsequent to my retirement, there was a general instruction to do this.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In addition you gave testimony that you sent Mamasela to see whether he could confirm 
the information which he then did confirm, how did Mamasela confirm this, was this orally or in writing?

UNKNOWN: He confirmed this to me orally.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You were satisfied with this information 
which he made available to you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I was satisfied by this information.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What distance from Mr Tsele's house did you
park, you say it was some distance from the house?
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 8

UNKNOWN: It must have been about 300, 400 metres.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could you see the house from where you were parked?

UNKNOWN: No, we could not see the house and that is why I sent Mamasela and Bafana to the 
house.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was it not necessary for yourself to keep the building in view in order to see what 
Mamasela was doing?

UNKNOWN: No, I trusted Mamasela, it was the intention that he would return to me and tell me what 
he had found at the house.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You've said in addition that Mr Tsele was involved in arson and labour union activities, 
boycotts, etc.  Could you tell this Committee what exact or particular acts of arson or which particular 
boycotts he arranged, or do you just have general information?

UNKNOWN: This was general information gained, or rather information gained from the file.  He 
worked for a particular company in Bophuthatswana from where he arranged boycotts and strikes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you able to tell the Committee when and how he committed these acts of arson?

UNKNOWN: No, I am unable to remember this.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you remember whether he was engaged in maybe five or six or ten or how many acts 
or arson?

UNKNOWN: No, not at all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he at any time involved in the organisation of boycotts?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he was.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could you mention any particular such events?  Could you tell us which exact boycotts he 
engaged in?

UNKNOWN: I cannot give you the dates or the particular PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 9

UNKNOWN: incidents, I cannot remember them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This particular paragraph seems to me very general, we have to do with the life of a person 
and on very general information, this person was killed.  Should this be enough for this Committee?

UNKNOWN: No, this was not just general information, this was confirmed information, confirmed by 
informants.  I also sent Mamasela with the intention of confirming the information in addition and all of 
this information was in fact confirmed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This is what I am asking you, or what I am asking you is whether you can mention 
particular cases of arson or boycotts and you cannot remember this?

UNKNOWN: This is 10 to 11 years ago and I cannot remember that far ago.  This is not the only case 
in which I was involved, I had many cases in which I was involved.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I understand that, but for the purposes of this application, surely you must have made 
some effort to gain this information for the Committee.

UNKNOWN: This information was available, I had told the Committee that this information had 
existed, it had been confirmed, also it had been confirmed that this was in fact a safe house for terrorists.
	I must mention that this was in Bophuthatswana, I could not trust the Bophuthatswana police to 
give us information or to assist us.  Bophuthatswana at that time was an independent State.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How did you get involved in Bophuthatswana, were you invited to go and help there?

UNKNOWN: No, as the information was made available to
us, we acted on our own.  I could not personally go and do 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 9

UNKNOWN: investigations there, we had to depend on information made available by our informants and also on 
Mamasela.	We could not operate inside Bophuthatswana itself.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Nevertheless, this person was living in Bophuthatswana at that time?

UNKNOWN: Exactly, and he planned these acts of terror from there inside South Africa.  That is 
exactly why I am saying that he lived there and the operation was acted out in Bophuthatswana.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you invited by the then Government of Bophuthatswana to act there?

UNKNOWN: No, we were not invited, we acted on our own without the knowledge of the then 
Bophuthatswana Government.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So did you enter Bophuthatswana at that time?

UNKNOWN: Yes, we did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Page 99, the bottom thereof, the last sentence but one - 
		"The instruction for Mamasela was to determine whether there were terrorists in the 
house and to call us if that was the case.  It was not the intention that he should simply 
shoot the person."

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Do I understand this to mean that the killing was in your view, premature?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.  Should there have been terrorists in the house, he would have called us 
and we would all have gone in together at that time.

JUDGE MGOEPE: To do what?

UNKNOWN: We would not have been able to arrest them, PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 10

UNKNOWN: it was the intention to shoot them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now, had they not found any terrorists, would you have shot him or would you 
have given instructions that he be killed?

UNKNOWN: No, he acted outside of his instructions.  The instruction was not that he should have shot 
Tsele.