Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Jerry Richardson, do you know him?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I was with other prisoners, I do not know as to who their names were, maybe I got to know the others after quite some time.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] do you know Jerry Richardson?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I do.

MR SEMENYA: Now why do you play hard on such a simple point?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please answer your questions in a very straight forward manner so as not to waste time?  You can see that we haven't come here to play, if you are asked a question answer as direct and as straightforward as you can.

MR SEMENYA: Did you and Jerry Richardson discuss this event in prison?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you please tell me what you're referring to, which event are you talking about?

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Which event are you talking about, could you please explain?  When you say the "event", what are you referring to?

MR SEMENYA: Did you and Jerry Richardson discuss the killing of Doctor Asvat?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: If I'm not mistaken, I think between Guybon and Richardson - I don't know which one you're referring to but I had an altercation with one of them in jail - I don't know whether it's Guybon or Richardson, so I don't want to say something that I'm not sure about.
 If you can just remind me or just explain as to who the other is?  I never had a discussion with Jerry - or it might have been Guybon but I did fight with one of them.  Excuse me please - the fight was with regard to Doctor Asvat and his death.

MR SEMENYA: Let me ask it differently, do you know why Jerry Richardson was in prison?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I know now - I don't remember.

MR SEMENYA: Do you recall you denied knowing Mr Dlamini?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I do.

MR SEMENYA: Why did you say you didn't know him?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: If I remember, I chose number 2 as well as number 3 and I denied any knowledge of them.

MR SEMENYA: The question is why?  The question is why?  Why do you say you don't know Dlamini?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible]

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I was trying to protect him so that we weren't all going to be involved in this.  The reason was that I did not want us all to get involved, that was the reason.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] what you meant.  Why did you want to protect Dlamini?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I said my answer is that I did not want us all to get involved because we were related or we were friends.

MR SEMENYA: When did you know Dlamini?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: We grew up together.

MR SEMENYA: And you had to deny that both of you went and robbed in your hometown?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I denied it, I do not know that or I do not know that I did not do that.

MR SEMENYA: Is it your evidence that you were seeing Mrs Mandela person to person for the first time that particular day and that was the last time you saw her?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is true.

MR SEMENYA: And that it was only you and Dlamini?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is true.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know a Botha Shwala?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I do.

MR SEMENYA: Who is he?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: He's one of my home boys, at the time he was staying at Izimsholpe.

MR SEMENYA: According to a statement purportedly made by Dlamini, he seems to say that a certain John Morgan was there, was that your observation?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Where?

MR SEMENYA: Mandela's house.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I cannot testify as to what other people saw, I told you what I saw.  I saw the person we went to as well as the person I was with, I wouldn't testify with regard to other people and what they saw.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, in the ordinary course of things I would confront this particular witness with each and every inconsistency that appears in the three statements that I have.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR SEMENYA: I halt my cross-examination, I'm merely saying, if I had to do what I must do it would be to confront him with each and every inconsistency and it would clearly take far more than five minutes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that you have done what you had to do?

MR SEMENYA: I would be contradicting myself, professional execution of my task would have to be to confront the witness with each and every inconsistency but I also understand the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Time constraint?

MR SEMENYA: The time constraint that the Commission operates on.

CHAIRPERSON: What I was wanting to ensure is that - despite those constraints and the parameters that I have indicated, I wouldn't want you to have said at the end that you didn't accomplish your objective because of that.  I appreciate your concern and I'm glad that you agree, thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: Maybe I'll put it in general terms to this particular witness that the version - and I put it in plural, that the killing of Doctor Asvat was at the request of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela is incorrect.  It's a reason fabrication intended to give a political motive for your callous deed.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I do hear the manner in which you're putting this but I also have my version and my version is just what I have delivered before this Commission and anything beyond that is your own observation.  To-morrow you will have a problem with your version because I'm the one who is involved in this, I'm the one did this, you were not there and therefore you cannot testify as to what happened there.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] tell you what - in one statement again, your co-accused says
"We then went to Diepkloof to see a person called Maxinga"
Do you know Maxinga?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MR SEMENYA: Do you know Maxinga?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, I do not know Maxinga.

MR SEMENYA: You don't know Maxinga?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: It's the first time I hear that name.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] is saying
"We then went to Diepkloof to see a person called Maxinga at Diepkloof hostel and we saw the person.  Mbatha then spoke to Maxinga asking him to lend Mbatha a firearm as we were going to use it"
Does this sound familiar to you?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I don't understand you because I'm Mbatha and I don't understand you when you say: "You went to see Mbatha", you're confusing the issues so could you repeat your question?

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] this story or you don't?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That's news to me.

MR SEMENYA: The statement goes on and it says
"Maxinga then gave Mbatha a 9mm Star firearm"

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you repeat that?
MR SEMENYA
"Maxinga than gave Mbatha a 9mm Star firearm"
This is now your friend Dlamini speaking.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I have no knowledge thereof.

MR SEMENYA: Is he lying?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Ask Dlamini, he'll be able to answer you.

MR SEMENYA: ..[inaudible] of your better knowledge of him, is he lying?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I said I have no knowledge and therefore I will not answer that question, you should direct it to Dlamini.  Whether he is telling a lie or not, I do not know.

MR SEMENYA: What I'm saying is, is it incorrect?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I said I'm Mbatha and I do not know what you're telling me.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] Dlamini's incorrect when he says that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Sir, I said I do not know what you are referring to, I do not know anything about that.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Yes, Mr Miller?