Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-17

MR NGUBANE: If you can recall, how many incidents did he talk about during the interrogation the previous day and the following day?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, he told us about him and his unit, which places they had bombed.
	I don't know, do you want me to mention specific things, I can refer you to Exhibit 88.  I think amongst other things, there was the Montclair railway line, the Rosborough railway station, offices, court offices which they had bombed.
	I might be able to mention more if I could peruse Exhibit A.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, not a problem.  But do you confirm the evidence of Mr Botha that on the following day, he was interrogated the whole day?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, he was interrogated.

MR NGUBANE: Well sir, these incidents that you have mentioned, I suggest to you that they are not so lengthy as to necessitate a period of more than 12 hours of interrogation, do you agree with me?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we did not only interrogate him regarding the explosions, he was interrogated regarding other matters as well.

MR NGUBANE: Which matters are you referring to now?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Regarding other activities, other divisions which were under his command.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, even those, I suggest to you they could not have necessitated this length of time.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this interrogation was not continuous throughout the day.  There were times when we took breaks and there were times when we went over things that he had told us.

MR NGUBANE: Is it not the position that this interrogation was not as mild as you have put it to us, this man was severely assaulted before he could give you any information?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, he was assaulted as I have described.

MR NGUBANE: Had you discussed with Mr Botha that this man would just be given a few slaps and a punch?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did not discuss that with Botha.

MR NGUBANE: I am just surprised by the similarity of the pattern.  Mr Botha assaults this man, he gives him a few slaps and punches and you also do the same thing.  Was it a coincidence?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this man was questioned, and if we were not satisfied with his responses, he was assaulted.

MR NGUBANE: How many times approximately?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I can't recall.

MR NGUBANE: It could have been 10 times, 20 times, because you cannot recall?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is possible, I can't recall.

MR MALAN: Mr Ngubane, if you will just allow me - Mr Du Preez, this so-called question and answer method, I would like to have more information regarding this, because it is something that the other applicants have mentioned.
	This question/answer method incorporated assault, that if there wasn't any cooperation, the person would be slapped and hit with a fist?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: One of the things on everybody's conscience would be, the degree of severity of these assaults, these slappings and fist blows.  Regarding fist blows, he was hit in the face and on the body, I think you also gave evidence which was similar?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Was he injured, did he bleed at any place on his body as a result of being hit with a fist?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I can't remember that Pumeso was bleeding.

MR MALAN: Could his nose have broken as a result of the fist blows, could one have broken a rib, what was the violence with which he was struck?
	These are the questions which are being put consistently, what was the degree of assault which would make a man talk?  Can you remember?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, he was assaulted as I have said.  I can't remember that there was any blood running from his nose or his mouth for example and I am very certain that there were no fractures, such as broken ribs or arms.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  As far as you were aware, before Nxiweni could be arrested, was there any intention of turning him into an informer?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson, not according to me.

MR NGUBANE: If I understood your evidence correctly when you were being led, you said that there was no chance that this man could be turned into an informer and he was eliminated, is that correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was clear from two years previously that he had been busy with bombings, and it was not his intention to seize his terrorist activities.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, my understanding of your evidence is that you interrogated this man, and you realised that he could not be turned into an informer.  To me it sounded as if it was a realisation of that particular moment, was I correct in my understanding of your evidence?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: So you were going to eliminate him any way, without even attempting to turn him into an informer?  Was that your plan?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That was the plan Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: You wanted to squeeze him of all the information and then kill him just like that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Was it ever in your mind, that he should be prosecuted?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Why not?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think that we had learnt from previous experience.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, what previous experience and what had you learnt?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: When Pumeso was formerly charged and found not guilty.

MR NGUBANE: So, after the Ramlakan case, is it your suggestion that you decided that if we catch this man, we must just eliminate him?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: At what stage did you then because of the Ramlakan experience, decide that this man should be eliminated?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: After we had become aware that he had once again become involved in bomb explosions and continued with his acts of terrorism.

MR NGUBANE: Immediately after the Ramlakan case, did it ever occur to you that this man has escaped and he is going to continue with his terrorist as you put it, activities?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It did not come to my attention then.

MR NGUBANE: You thought that he was a changed man after the acquittal?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did not give that a thought.

MR NGUBANE: You didn't think about him at all?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I can't recall whether I thought about him specifically.  There were many persons involved in that case who got away.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, the kwaMashu 3 incident.

MR MALAN: I beg our pardon Mr Ngubane.  Nxiweni and Bhila were the only two who got away on a specific date before the others, isn't that correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So there weren't many others who got away with him, it was only those two?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: In the court case there were also other persons who got away.

MR MALAN: I don't have the records in front of me, but according to the judgment it was much later?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think Buthelezi was much earlier.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Buthelezi was earlier if I recall correctly.

MR MALAN: Weren't Nxiweni and Bhila let go at the end of the State's case on the basis that there was absolutely no evidence brought in against them, that is the reflection of the record?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.