Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, that concludes my re-examination, but what I would like before the adjournment is if we could by agreement, place the motor car that Mr van Zyl, Mr Calla Botha - on Exhibit P1 and P2, Mr Chairman.  For the sake of completeness, I think it will be helpful so that people don't have to go to the record searching for it.  But this was a matter within the observation of the Members of the Committee, I think that you have got a note and a clear recollection of where it was.  If we can't agree, then perhaps we should leave it to you, Mr Chairman and the Members of the Committee, to merely put it in as the next letter of the alphabet.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think if you can try to agree, but before we do that I'd just like to ask my colleagues if they have any questions of Mr Alexander.  Sorry, Ms Coleridge first.  Do you have any questions to ask Mr Alexander?  I should have asked that before re-examination, I'm sorry.

UNKNOWN: No, that's fine, Chairperson.  I just wanted to ask him one question in relation to the police.
	You said there were a lot of police present after the bomb had occurred.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, correct.

UNKNOWN: Did any of the policemen take any statements from any of the witnesses at the scene of the incident?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not as far as I can remember.

UNKNOWN: No statements were taken.  Do you know whether they came back to the centre, maybe a day or two later, requesting persons to make statements?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I think they came back to the centre, 'cause I spoke to Beula Fredericks that time and she gave a statement to the police I think.

UNKNOWN: And did she inform the police of the persons that were in the building at the time the incident had occurred?  Did she forward with any names to the police?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I don't know the content of her statement to the police.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one.
	Mr Alexander, the people who were attending the meeting of the Cape Youth Congress, basically were people representing structures.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR SIBANYONI: And those, for example, who were not representing structures but were members of some other structures in the community, am I correct?  In other words like yourself, you were not an executive of a smaller structure but you attended that meeting.  Did I understand you correctly?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was on the executive of Kewtown Youth Movement.

MR SIBANYONI: And Williams was not in the executive?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He was on the Kewtown Youth Movement's executive as well.

MR SIBANYONI: Basically my question is, as a result the meeting of the Cape Youth Congress was closed to ordinary members of the public.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Unlike that one of the Kewtown Youth Movement.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was open to members of our level, that's right.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks, Chair.
	Just to follow up on that, what was your actual position in the Kewtown Youth Movement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: At the time I was ...

MR LAX: Were you an office bearer?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I was an office bearer, I started to ...

MR LAX: You can't remember exactly which portfolio you had?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I'm not sure which portfolio, but I was quite ...(intervention)

MR LAX: And was Mr Williams an office bearer?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now I just want to clarify this.  You said that this was a regional executive within Cayco, what region was it of Cayco?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was the ...(indistinct) of Cayco.

MR LAX: Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was the ...(indistinct) region of Cayco ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry?  Athlone region of Cayco?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Athlone region, but not all at the meeting, present at the meeting would have an office bearing function for that Athlone region.

MR LAX: But they were reps of the various branches within the Athlone region?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR LAX: And around Cape Town there would have been a whole range of other sub-regions, all making up the Western Cape, for example?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now did Mr Williams ever tell you, soon after that or at any time after that, that Gakkie said to him: "Listen man, you guys must get out of here, I put a bomb in this place"?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: At no point, that's ludicrous.  At no point, ja.

MR LAX: He didn't come to you say: "Jeez, Gakkie is out of his tree, he told us he put a bomb there"?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, Sir, he never said anything to that effect.  At no point did Peter come and tell me that.

MR LAX: Were you ever approached, up until the time you actually did make a statement, were you approached by the police to make a statement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: At no point, Sir.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Alexander, did you own a Valiant?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I owned a Valiant.  It was my brother's Valiant, but that was in 1984/'85.

CHAIRPERSON: Because Gakkie's testified that he didn't know that you drove an Isuzu bakkie.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's not the facts, Sir.  The Valiant was last driven in '85 and by mid-'85 I bought an Audi.  I had an Audi 100.  I think it was a cream colour.

CHAIRPERSON: And also we heard from the evidence of Gakkie, that he got some documents of the Kewtown Youth Movement which he handed over.  He can't read, but he said he could discern Kewtown, but he didn't know the content, what sort of documents do you think - accepting that, what sort of documents do you think he could have handed over?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It might pertain to informing people around the elections, but not threatening or of such a nature.  We weren't in the business of threats.  We tried to inform people.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of pamphlets, because Mr Williams when questioning, also mentioned pamphlets, Kewtown pamphlets, what were the contents of those pamphlets, what would they have been?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Explanations around the elections, what in fact you do by voting, you're legitimising the current government, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: So they were against the upcoming tricameral elections and just voicing that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: And then also just one last point, you heard the evidence of Mr Hardien, he said that there was a lot of violence, political violence at the time, tyres being burnt in the street, trucks, vehicles being burnt and he said that he saw a lot of this and every time he was at such a scene he saw members of Kewtown, and he was of the opinion that they must have been associated or involved with the commission of the deeds, the burning of the tyres and the trucks, what's your comment on that evidence?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: At no point did any members of Kewtown youth commit arson or did any acts of public violence, Sir.  If I may just add, Isgak was a paid guy to try and do those things.  We've heard evidence from Mr Barnard that that was the type of things that these guys were paid to do.

MR LAX: Just one last thing.  Were yourself or any other members of the Kewtown youth ever prosecuted for any such acts?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Never, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions arising out of questions that have been put by Members of the Panel?  Does that then conclude the evidence in this matter?

GEORGE BIZOS: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: And I believe that arrangements have been made regarding the filing of Heads of Argument and hearing argument.  Would you like to put that on record, Mr Coleridge?