Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, we aimed at achieving one thing.  We wanted to make the then illegitimate government, to be aware that the continued killing of our heroes and our role-models in the political sphere like Chris Hani, would really cause a mess in this country because as the rank and file of the ANC or MK, we would not allow that type of a situation.  Therefore we wanted to make the government aware of that and secondly, to make the people of this country aware that the killing of the leaders, was unbearable to us.
	The government was aware that there was no other way to heal the wound, rather than to free the people of this country.  That was the aim we wanted to achieve, that we are retaliating, we retaliated so as to show the government that the killing of our heroes, was unbearable to us as rank and file and also, the government should be compelled therefore, to free the people of this country, who were of the same aspirations as comrade Chris Hani.

MR ZILWA: Now you have also mentioned the fact that the retaliation, you aimed retaliation really at the counter-revolutionary forces, which according to your information, were based mostly at Port St Johns.  Did you learn about the identity of the killer of Chris Hani, and did that have anything to do with your decision to actually hit Port St Johns?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, we heard that comrade Chris was killed by a white man and that alone really caused us to link the whole thing with the real enemy of comrade Chris Hani, that is the government, the then government, with its allies.

MR ZILWA: Right, can you then go on with what happened after you had taken this resolution.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Then on taking the resolution that we should really go and retaliate for Chris, we went to Port St Johns on the basis that we wanted to consult the comrades there, that is Pumelele Hermans and Fundisile Guleni, who were serving, who were also serving in the sub-region, who really put the information to us at the sub-regional level.
	So we were to go to them as to ask them as to where are these targets, whom they were really suspecting that they were there, to destabilise the movement.  So, from Flagstaff we pulled on the 11th, it was - no, we met at Flagstaff on the 11th and then on the 12th, we moved to Port St Johns.

MR ZILWA: Let me disturb you once again Mr Maxhayi.  Sorry about that, but we have to establish everything at this stage.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Okay.

MR ZILWA: Now, you say you took this decision as a Self Defence Unit.  How many people did this Self Defence Unit comprise?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: At my Branch, we were more than 15 who were the Self Defence Unit there.

CHAIRPERSON: It that at Flagstaff?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: At Flagstaff, yes.

MR ZILWA: And when you met to discuss the incident, how many were you?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: We met on the 11th, myself and Vuyani Nyalukana.  We initiated this thing at the time and then we decided to reinforce us with Lungile Mazwi on the way to Port St Johns.

MR ZILWA: Now with relation to the way this Self Defence Units operate, do they operate autonomously or do they have to, if any resolutions are taken by them, do they first, before they are implemented, do such resolutions first have to be taken up with the higher echelons of the organisation, or how really did this Self Defence Unit work?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The Self Defence Unit has an autonomous status.  What happened was that the ANC deployed well trained MK members in our respective areas.  Those people trained us as Self Defence Units and then at times, they left the area.  Then the people who were trained, had a right to take the decision on their own.
	That is the Self Defence Unit.  They were autonomous in terms of defending, in terms of operation on the absence of the Commanders or the well trained MK cadres who were deployed in our areas.

ADV SANDI: I am sorry Mr Zilwa, if I can just ask you a question about this for clarity.  Are you saying that you also received military training?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I got training from the comrades who were deployed in our areas.  A Self Defence Unit need to be trained, though it is not a full time training.  A paramilitary training is needed.

ADV SANDI: How long did that training take?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, it was not a full time training at the time, because we used any chance, we were not full time.

ADV SANDI: What was the focus of that training, what was the training on?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The focus was to make the people aware of - as the youth, as I said earlier on that there was a need for the security of the organisation, so most of the time, the security of the organisation, depends on us.  That is why we took that decision.
	Then theirs, that is the MK cadres, was to facilitate that by orientating let me put it that way, those comrades, nominated comrades, they were nominated in their merits, comrades were selected on merits in terms of are they vigilant and so on, in terms of looking for the enemy or the safeguard of the organisation.  So it happened that those comrades be taken maybe to a shooting range and then be orientated with maybe a rifle or a pistol and then be taken at times to another terrain for maybe a physical training and so on.
	So that was the training which was happening.  It was not a formal training.

ADV SANDI: Okay, Mr Maxhayi, you sort of answered me.  I don't want to interrupt you Mr Zilwa, but just one question on this.  How long before the assassination of Mr Hani, did this training of yours take place?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Myself, I started in 1991.  1991 I started to get involved in the training.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Zilwa, sorry for that.

MR ZILWA: Thank you sir.  Okay, now you have mentioned that you received this training from some MK cadres who would be deployed in the various districts.  With relation to Flagstaff, the district in which you were operating, who was the MK cadre who gave you this paramilitary training you have mentioned?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: One, the most prominent one is Max, Max Taho, but at times there were Commanders who would come from Umtata to assist at that particular time, who were not really full time, you see, but the most prominent one who was really concerned with the area was Max Taho.

MR ZILWA: Right, now this Max Taho, did he give you any weaponry with which to defend the organisation or were you armed, let's put it that way, were you armed in any way by the MK cadres who were deployed to give you this paramilitary training you have mentioned?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Now, at a certain time Max was compelled to go to a certain training, Warrant Officer's course at Umtata School of Infantry.  It is then that now he left his rifle with me and told me to look after the situation in my area there.

MR ZILWA: In other words if I understand you correctly, Max left you with his rifle which I assume was then the issue of his organisation, and he left this rifle with you with specific instructions to look after the interest of the organisation?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Right, now please carry on.  You were still saying that after you had taken the decision to go to Port St Johns, you embarked on a journey to Port St Johns on a particular day.  Can you take it from there and proceed?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.  Now on that 12th, it was on Monday, then we went to Port St Johns, three of us.  We had a rifle, we had a pistol and two handgrenades.

MR ZILWA: I think we should get the specifics at this point of time.  When you say there were three of you, could you mention who you were and how each of you were armed?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: It was myself armed with a rifle, Vuyani Nyalukana was not armed with anything, because he was concentrating on driving, Lungile Mazwi was the one who was carrying a 9 mm pistol and then in the vehicle there were two handgrenades there in case of an attack.