Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-16

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: What happened was the Umtwalumi Youth League was formed in 1986, but it operated underground and was not known to many people.  There was a complaint launched with the chief, that there were people heard in the evenings, singing, but the community didn't know who those people were.  In 1989 the chief gave his approval to the youth at ...(indistinct) to meet and discuss what political party they were supporting, whether the UDF or IFP.  That meeting was to be held on the 29th of September 1989 at my home..  My home was the stronghold of the IFP.  Everything was done there at home.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I hear him correctly that his home was the stronghold of the IFP?

ME DEHAL: Prior to his becoming a UDF ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously), indeed.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Yes my home.  That meeting on the 26th was not successful because people did not pitch up.  It was then postponed to December, 30th.  Before this date the youth would approach me and wanted to know if they should attend the meeting, so I encouraged them to do so and informed them that the meeting will no longer be held at my home but at a certain mountain in ...(indistinct).  So the meeting was held and a lot of young people arrived.  I chaired that meeting and I first explained to them about the IFP, about the UDF and about Cosatu and about  ...(indistinct).  I then challenged the youth present, asking them:  "How long are we going to operate underground?  Why don't we operate openly?"  As the meeting was still in progress the Chief came, he was with my father who was his Induna.  They were also with the Councillor Mr Zuma.  The Chief stopped the car a distance away and sent my father to come to us.  When my father arrived, he informed us that the Chief requested minutes of this meeting for him to know whether the youth supported the IFP or the UDF.  A dispute arose between myself and my father because the meeting was not formal, it was just a mass meeting, therefore the Chief would not be in a position to obtain any minutes.  My brother, Madambe, also had a dispute, an altercation with my father, but to avoid further conflict, I promised my father that I would hand over the minutes for him to give to the Chief.  My father then returned to the car.  That is when Umtwalumi Youth League was formed.  The Executive Committee was also elected on the very same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt at this stage?  For purposes of my record, what was the name of the Chief to whom your father was the Induna.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Chief Bhekizizwe ...(intervention

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: B-H-E-K-I-Z-I-Z-W-E Narvad Luthuli.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the second name?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: The second name is Narvad.

INTERPRETER: He says Narvad.

CHAIRPERSON: The second name was?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: N-A-R-V-A-D.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: The surname is Luthuli.

ME DEHAL: Mr Madlala, having set the background, can I take you to the 10th of February?  Is that fine?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Let me just finish off about that, about the 30th of December.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, only if it's necessary, because a lot of the background has been covered.  Greater detail may not  advance the case very much further.  It might make very interesting reading, but for the purposes of the present application, ...(intervention)

ME DEHAL: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Make the points that you wish to emphasise.

ME DEHAL: I agree.  Mr Madlala, that background's been adequately set.  Do you mind if we proceed to the 10th of February?  If I may take you to paragraph 13 of Exhibit A.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Okay.

ME DEHAL: You say that on the 10th of February, 48 houses in the Umtwalumi area were burnt by the IFP.  You saw that the police were present, but they did nothing to prevent this.  The Comrades and the IFP once more clashed.  Two IFP members were killed.  You killed one of them but no charges were proffered against you.  Now, do you know the person you killed?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: No, I do not.

ME DEHAL: Why not?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: What happened from the 1st of January was that the IFP would collect people from other areas, areas like Lindelane or ...(indistinct) at Emapondwene and people from Chief Kawula's area, so that most of the people who were killed were not known to me.  I did not know them.  For instance, on the 1st of January I shot somebody at my home.  I did not know who that person was.  He was another gentleman from kwaMakhutha, therefore when we clashed with the IFP, it would be - we were fighting against people we did not know because they were not from the area.  This did not happen just on these two occasions but there were many others where unknown persons would attack us, some of them speaking Xhosa.

ME DEHAL: I take you to paragraph 14,  which deals with the following day, the 11th of February.  You say here that the IFP once more attacked the area, more houses were burnt, a fight once more ensued between the IFP and the Comrades.  You personally shot and killed two IFP members.  You were not arrested for this incident.  Later that night several comrades were abducted and killed by the IFP.  Now, this person that you shot and killed was an IFP member, sorry two of those persons.  Do you know who they are, or can you not tell for the same reasons, for the reasons adduced relative to the incident on the 10th of February?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: I do not know with regards to the people who died on the 10th but I did not know the people who died on the 11th either.

ME DEHAL: Thank you.  You then say that on the 13th of February, in paragraph 15 of Exhibit A
"The police raided the area and arrested 16 comrades.  They were charged with public violence."
You were arrested later together with other comrades and you were charged with public violence and one count of attempted murder.  
"During this time, Mr Dehal (that's myself and other legal representatives from my office) represented UDF members.  After several court appearances, the charges of public violence and attempted murder were withdrawn."
Is that correct?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you have already told us that before, why should he repeat it, that those charges were withdrawn?

ME DEHAL: Correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Carry on.

ME DEHAL: Thereafter you deal with the 24th of March and the 25th of March which we have now lawfully dealt with.  In fact you dealt with that exhaustively when you dealt with the exhibits in the bundle, correct?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That's correct.

ME DEHAL: The second applicant, Falake Madlala, is he your younger brother?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Yes, he is.

ME DEHAL: And is it correct that he fell under the wing - under your command under the wing of the UDF Youth League and acted under your instructions?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.

ME DEHAL: Sorry, just one additional aspect.  If you look at page 51 of the bundle, there is a victim known as Mzelemu, who claims to be your uncle and who says that on the 3rd of February 1990, his house was attacked by you, the applicant and a number of other people unknown to him.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Page?

ME DEHAL: 51.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: I know that person, he is my uncle.

ME DEHAL: Now you've not applied for amnesty for this incident.  Do you know of this incident?  Were you involved in this incident?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: I did not apply for amnesty for that incident because I did not take part in that incident, I was away at the time.

ME DEHAL: I understand from your instructions that you had a mass democratic movement, UDF/ANC aligned meeting on the morning of that day when your uncle was attacked.  You'd chaired that meeting and you were away from the area.  Correct?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: That is correct.