Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Genl Kleinhouse was then the chief detective in South Africa.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did he subsequently visit you and make warning statements in terms of the Judges Rules in terms of the death of Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At that time, would the lie or lies contained in what we will for clarity sake or for the sake of ease, refer to as the Goosen statement;  would these lies have been continued?

MR SNYMAN: That is the case.

MR BOOYENS: You did not come out with the truth to Kleinhouse or Kleinhans, with regard to the true events of the 6th?

MR SNYMAN: No.

MR BOOYENS: We know that there had subsequently been a formal inquest at which my learned friend, Mr Bizos, was in fact present and that you gave testimony at that inquest?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: With regard to which statement or statements did you base your testimony at the post-mortem inquest?

MR SNYMAN: These were based on the fake statement.

MR BOOYENS: Would this have been the Goosen statement?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: On that occasion also then you gave false testimony?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: So, you in fact lied to the inquest court?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: To the best of your knowledge, the other members present, would also have taken part in this deception?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Snyman, why did you lie?

CHAIRPERSON: Please, just let's have some quiet, please!  Do carry on.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it was very clear that we were guided by Col Goosen with regard to the manner in which we should draft our statements and that is from whom the idea came.

MR BOOYENS: Did you protest in any way against telling these lies?  Did you protest towards Goosen?

MR SNYMAN: When I had to make the entry into the occurrence book, I found it strange that he told me to enter the incorrect date, namely the 7th rather than the 6th.  I then became concerned, but I had no intention to protest, since I knew I would get into - would be resisted by him.

MR BOOYENS: Did Goosen exactly tell you what to write into the occurrence book entry or what was the situation?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, he only told me that I had to enter that the incident occurred on the 7th.  For the rest I wrote down what I had observed.

MR BOOYENS: With regard to the incident;  the incident of the Goosen statement, the date change and other untruths contained in that statement, you were wholly knowledgeable of the fact that this was an untrue statement.  It was a deception.  Could you give us some indication of the character of Col Goosen?

MR SNYMAN: Col Goosen was a very determined person.  Once he had made up his mind, he stayed with that and he also insisted that everyone would have to join into his decision or join with his decision.

MR BOOYENS: You have given quite considerable, considerably complete detail with regard to the events of the assault on Mr Biko, the statements and so forth.  Would you confirm in addition, the essential correctness of that contained in your statement with regard to the incident, with regard to Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: With regard to the interrogation of Mr Biko, the efforts to conceal the true facts with regard to his death, the fact that the man was kept chained in a standing position against the
barred metal gate, the fact that medical assistance was only obtained at a later stage on his behalf;  what would your feelings be today, as you are sitting here with regard to your actions at that time?

MR SNYMAN: I feel very badly about these actions, that we acted in this manner against this person.

MR BOOYENS: Was it ever the intention to kill Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour, it had never been the intention.

MR BOOYENS: It is know and I have summarise for you what you had done to in fact violate his human rights;  with regard to your description of the shuffle or fight;  were there any further assaults?  Was he beaten or was there any other such actions?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: What would the political purpose have been?  In your personal view, what political purpose did you attempt to achieve while interrogating Mr Biko, while violating his human rights and while deceiving the court subsequently?  	Why did you do this?  What would the political purpose, if any, have been?

MR SNYMAN: The political purpose had been in the first place, not to bring the security branch or the Government of the day into a position of embarrassment.  It was intended to protect the Government and the security branch.  That is why the facts were concealed.

MR BOOYENS: With regard to the violation of Biko, his interrogation, what political purpose were you attempting to achieve through those actions?

MR SNYMAN: Certainly, since he was striving to subvert the status quo it was our intention to obtain information from him in order to develop a case against him and to have him prosecuted in a court of law.

MR BOOYENS: His intentions, to the best of your knowledge, was to subvert the status quo?  If you had done nothing with regard to him, if for instance you simply left him alone;  what would you imagine might have happened amongst others?

MR SNYMAN: The country would have been brought into further anarchy.

MR BOOYENS: Referring to page 7 of your application, you there deal with the political objectives which you attempted to achieve, at 10(a).  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Perhaps for the sake of comprehensiveness, you should read this out.

MR SNYMAN: "1.  The purpose of a security branch as part of the power base of the National Party Government, was the maintenance of internal security by means of countering
terrorism and protecting the then State
order, namely the National Party 
Government and State structures against 
Communist expansionism as identified in 
the so-called liberation organisations;  that
 is the ANC/SACP alliance and the PAC as 
well as Black Power or Black 
Consciousness Organisations, namely the 
BPC and SASO, as well as their armed
 wings, Umkhonto weSizwe, APLA and 
TBCM which had tempted with violence to 
overthrow the Government of the day and
 to take over Government."

MR BOOYENS: I'm sure everyone knows who the ANC/SACP alliance and the PAC is.  The BPC would be the Black People's Convention, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: SASO would be the South African Students' Organisation?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: I'm sure everyone knows what APLA is.  BCM would be the Black Consciousness Movement?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe this might be a convenient stage to take a short adjournment?

MR BOOYENS: Certainly, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, we'll resume in 15 minutes from now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

HAROLD SNYMAN: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, you may proceed.

MR BOOYENS: (cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Snyman, you - if I recall correctly, were at the end of page 7 of your application.  Could you continue at the top of page 8?