Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

UNKNOWN: No, I don't know their surnames Sir.  They said that Leleki was looking for a place to stay because he cam from Durban.  I told him it is very difficult to find a place to stay in the area in which he wanted to stay because we would have to go the Street Committee of that area and it will be the Street Committee that would introduce him to the Area Committee.  He will get a paper from his area and after that they will be able to help him find a place but I was not sure whether he would find a place to stay.  He asked me to make these arrangements with the Chairperson of the Street Committee which I did but he didn't come back.  I met Noxhawe and gave her the report that there would be a meeting but I wasn't present at that meeting.  He was supposed to go to that meeting to ask for a place to stay.  After a while he came back for the second time with two men.  One of them was Smu the one who said he was from Durban.  He was speaking a bit of Zulu.  They came to check this place.  At that time there was no decision taken concerning the place of stay.  I'm not going to say that there was a promise that he was going to get a house as he said but what happened was that on the day of the incident he came to my home at about twelve after we found out that Comrade Chris had passed away.  I was alone I'd just finished my dinner.  There were people all over in the streets after Chris's death.  He said to me he was given an order and I asked him who gave him this order and what was the order.  He said that Admiral sent him because there was a mission to be done in his Unit in which he was going to be attached from the unit of Umkhonto weSizwe.  I questioned this because I met Admiral on the previous day.  I couldn't understand why there was a direct order from the Regional Commander of which there was a Sub-Regional Office and if there was a mission to be commissioned it had to go through the Sub-Regional Office it didn't happen in this way.  I said that I'm not going to defy this order I'll follow it.  I asked where we were going to work and he said we will come and pick you up and we will get an order of the operation of how we are going to operate.  I accepted the order as he was like a Commander at the time because he was the one given this order and I obeyed the order.  Smu came to me driving a Honda with a number plate with ND on it.  It was a maroon Honda.  He took me and when we were approaching a corner there were three people in the car one of them was Mr Leleke.  We became five in the car.  When we were approaching the  Senate Park area ... let me go back.  I first asked who is going to provide us with the material for the mission to be accomplished and he said that we were given the DL ............... where we will be getting the material for this operation but when we got to the place where we were going the problem was that Smu asked when we were going to get the material and who was going to provide us with this material because it was not there.  I said that he said to me he is the one who is going to give us the material.  Smu said that he is an organiser of this material and this is where the source of the conflict came about.  We were there but there was no material and most of us like myself I was not armed and I did not know that others were armed.  When a mission like this was pulled there was supposed to be material.  Maybe they expected me to bring the material but I didn't know what was going to happen.  That was the cause of the conflict and Smu said that he was pulling out, he was going to leave us.  A language which was used on such operations was used that if you pull out you must leave your head behind because the information.  That was the beginning of the conflict.  They confronted each other.  He pulled out a gun from his back.  We were standing in the bush.  There were four of us at the time.  We left the fifth one in the car.  The conflict started there when he pulled out his gun Smu approached him and  I grabbed gun.  Smu pulled out a knife and he stabbed him in the process.  I did not intervene because I didn't know whether this was a trap but I could see that there was a conflict concerning the issue of this material.
 When I tried to intervene I was at a distance and the gun was with me.  I said Smu you are going to take me home because there is a conflict now.  The gun was with me and he did not hesitate, Smu did not hesitate.  I understood that he had no firearm with him and I said that he must drive the car I had a gun with me.  When I was about to get into the car I took out a magazine and I gave it to the others so that if he comes back to these others he must not come back with a gun taken from me with bullets.  Smu took me home.  
 The following day between half past seven and eight a man by the name of Xhaxha came  he said there is a person accusing you of injuring him together with the people you were with and he said let us go and see this person.  We went there and when I got there, there was an ambulance and he was being taken by the ambulance to the hospital.  He then took me back home.  The office of the Regional Command sent a message that I was supposed to be in the office.  
 When I got to the office there were Regional Officers there.  One of the people who were there was Admiral Vanti.  Mr Leleki was also there.  Admiral said that there was this conflict and he said that Leleki was complaining that when this was happening we accused of being an informer.  I'm not going to go into details about this matter.  
 After that he was to tell his story in front of me.  He said he wanted to know the people who accused him of being an informer and secondly he wanted his medical expenses to be paid.  I could see that he was tense and I could see that he suspected there were certain people who told me about him being an informer.  We dealt with the issue of payment of medical expenses.  It was then said that unfortunately there was no one amongst us working at that time.   It was then decided that although I was not responsible for his injuries I was there when he was injured and at that time all of us were unemployed.  In this issue of an informer they asked them to tell them where I got this information.  I said that maybe that came through when I left them.  If they suspected him as an informer I'm not going to answer because I left there before he was accused of being an informer.  We were then given an order to pay the medical expenses and we agreed to pay.  
 For a long time I was unemployed and he used to come and visit me at home on the week-ends and there was no problem.  I was then employed and he knew that I was employed because he was the person who used to visit me.  He said that he was still having a problem with a place to stay and he was happy that I was employed.  He wanted him to help him to build a shack in Duncan Village.  I assisted him in terms of money.  I gave him money so that he would be able to build his shack.  He then came back to me because he had a problem with his girlfriend.  I'm not sure if his girlfriend was pregnant or not but there was a problem.  I again assisted him financially so that he doesn't have a problem because we were like friends at that time.  After that he went to Walmansthal to the integration of forces.  What surprised me was that there was conflict between him and the people who were in my Unit.  He accused them of being responsible in the attempted murder on his life.  They wanted to fight but they were stopped.
   I thought that when he was testifying he would be able to name these people because I don't know the people he was with.  There was that situation of the conflict between him and myself.  Lastly what also shocked me was that I thought he was going to say that if he was not satisfied in this issue he would go back to the organisation as we talked this in the organisation but I heard that he came to the Commission to report this matter.  That is not my problem because it is his right that if people are appearing before the Commission he has a right to come and appear before the Commission.  I cannot deny him his rights.  
 In the original statement I got he said that he wanted me to apologise to him publicly but I think it would be important if I had to apologise to him publicly as I've already told you what happened I don't want to deny him the right for him that he wanted me to apologise in public.  I do apologise in public because I was there and I did not stop what was happening but I would like the Commission to judge whether he deserves my apology or not and I hope that in this situation as we are here at the Truth Commission I hope that it will resolve problems existing already and I'm very reluctant to go to those specific problems because they belong to my organisation.  I have apologised publicly because I did not avoid this situation.  There will be no more attempts on my life as the last one was on the fifteenth of December.  I'm hoping that now it's the end because I'm tired of being combat ready at a time when we are no longer ready to fight so I hope I'm not putting to him that he's party to that but I'm saying that I've been suspicious in all these attempts of which direction they are coming from.  
 I now hope that the people who are present will understand that if they have a problem with me there is only one channel and that is to go to the Truth Commission.  That is what I think.