Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have that mandate?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, we had.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you had that mandate and you were known to be a member of the SDU, and if the parents of Ms Ndumo were aware, as it would appear from the evidence, that there is every reason for them suggesting that they were aware that they were suspected by the community to be IFP members, they already knew that you as an SDU, you had a duty to eliminate her, is that not so?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is this suspicion, what is this evidence that you are talking of that you didn't want them to know that you were one of those who wanted to eliminate her?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Firstly, these were my neighbours, living together in the township, and I, there could have been something that I wanted as my neighbours and I would have approached them for that.  Now if they discovered that I was one of those people that wanted to kill their children or their child, they would not be in a position to assist me with anything.

CHAIRPERSON: I will not belabour the point, I will move on.  I still have a very big question mark around that part of the evidence.
	You say between 1991 and 1992 the community reacted to the activities of the ladies in question, through the assistance of one, Skhosana, by capturing them and administering lashes, have I understood your evidence properly?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage the community was aware that the two ladies, amongst others, were spying for the IFP, is it not so?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did they not eliminate them then?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It happens often that you ask a person before killing him or her, the reasons for him or her to go there.  It might have been discovered from the questions and responses that they were fit for forgiveness, then they were only given lashes.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to understand you clearly, and it is very important for me to understand you on this point.
	Was it part of your mandate as SDU members to eliminate persons perceived in your midst, within your community, as being IFP members or supporters or spies, was that part of your broad mandate?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that mandate was understood by the community?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, why did the community then authorise any member of the SDU to have the ladies in question eliminated when they were captured between 1991 and 1992?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I really do not know the reason why.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it not suggest to you that your powers as SDU members did not go to the extent of eliminating people once they were suspected of spying for the IFP who were staying within your communities, and that you first had to question them, as it was your original intention when you went to abduct them from the tavern?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: A person would be killed according to his or her actions.  It might happen that the information that the community got out of these girls was not strong enough to kill them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how different would that information have been from the information that resided within you when you decided to kill them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: The information that the community got out of them is unknown to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't it been your evidence that it was a wild rumour, that's how I actually recorded it in my notes, that the ladies in question were spies as early as 1991?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was as a result of their spying that they were captured by comrade Skhosana?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And lashes administered by members of the community at large.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How different was that information which the community had about the activities of the two ladies, from the information that you had by August 1993, that would have made it so different as to give yourselves a mandate to eliminate them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It is different in the sense that the Boipatong issue was raised.  That was the reason that really made people fed-up.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you describe to us how exactly Ms Ndumo was killed?  We already know that she was shot at by Mr Radebe in a place called Small Farm, can you describe how she was killed and tell us what happened after Mr Radebe had shot Ms Ndumo?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: When we arrived at Small Farm, John Radebe went to his friend to exchange firearms, he took a firearm that was loaded and he left with his friends an empty firearm.
	Whilst waiting for him, asking Hapile questions, John appeared, John Radebe appeared.  When he appeared he moved us out of the way and he fired the first shot.  The deceased fell.   He went closer and fired some shots.  	
	When we left the place we left Samuel Neti and them.  They said they would take her and throw her by the grounds because she was shot in someone's yard.  That was the agreement.   I left with John Radebe for Zone 12.  	
	In the morning we went back to pick up the empty cartridges.  When we arrived the body was not where we left it, the body was in the other yard.  We picked up the empty cartridges and went to the body.
	The deceased - on the thigh IFP initials were ...(indistinct).   We then left,  John Radebe got into his home and he picked up some clothes and we left for Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: You keep on referring to yourselves in a plural sense, you say "when we left the place we left Samuel Neti and them", are you suggesting that there were more people than you have already testified to?  Who was with Sam Neti when you and Radebe left?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was Sam and his co-accused.  It was my first time to see him on that day.  I think he lives somewhere in Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not true that before Radebe shot Ms Ndumo, a small group of people had collected around Ms Ndumo, during her questioning by yourselves?  Is that not the case?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, there were people but I do not know them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why have you omitted that piece of evidence, to say that there were members of the community around when she was being questioned, by you in particular?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I did not mention them because I did not know them.  What would I say if I mentioned them, who would I say they were?

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence has not suggested that any member of the community was around when Ms Ndumo was shot.  You don't have to say anything sophisticated other than that.  You don't need more words to describe what happened at the scene which would put a small group of people at the scene when the shooting took place.  Why should it be difficult for you to do that?  Explain to me your difficulty because I do not understand it.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: My difficulty is that I did not know who those people were.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not say a small group of people were present when she was questioned by you and your colleagues, without having to identify them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It never came to my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, was it your intention to kill her, you personally as Mr Mkhwanazi?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And is it not true that you saw one of your colleagues, Samuel Neti dragging Ms Hapile after she had fallen onto the ground?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I never saw him.

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage did you leave the scene when you didn't see Mr Neti dragging the body of Ms Ndumo away from where she had initially fallen?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I did not see him dragging the body because after this incident myself and John Radebe left them at the scene, we went to Zone 12.  As to who dragged the body I do not know.