Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

DJ MKHIZE: Yes.  I can explain that.  After being sentenced and sent to Westville Prison there came the Colonel who was in charge of the prison, together with his Lieutenant.  He called me and Romeo Mbambo and Israil Fangwane saying there is a Minister who wanted to see us.  We were taken therefore from our cells and we went to Level 1.  We went down from Level 5 to Level 1 and we were driven in a van from Medium B going to the Commanding Officer's office, Mr De Beer.
	And on arrival there, there was Dr Sipho Mzimela, the Minister of Correctional Services who was with his wife and his bodyguards.  De Beer himself was present.  We exchanged greetings and we took our seats.
	I still remember that at that time with my co-accused we had made an application that we wanted to be sent to the Maritzburg Prison.  The first thing that we discussed with Dr Mzimela was why do we want to go to Maritzburg.  And we explained to him further.  And he ended up advising that it was not safe to go to Maritzburg because in the first place that jail is dominated by Popcru which is regarded as the police union which is shaking hands or rubbing shoulders with the ANC.  De Beer himself also indicated that Westville was fine for us, because they would make sure that we are protected.  It would not be the same as Maritzburg, because Maritzburg is a Popcru dominated area.
	Secondly we discussed the issue of visits.  The grading, such as D group and depending on one's behaviour, the grading would proceed that way.  But if a person is under a group, such a person would get better privileges.  And all of those things are things that we discussed.  And we promised that we would behave so that we can get better grades to get visits and better privileges.  Because a person would under normal circumstances not be allowed to have more than five visitors per month.
	And we finally agreed that we would not be transferred to Maritzburg; we would wait until Romeo came back from Nelspruit.  Because Romeo was supposed to go to Nelspruit; he was supposed to have left the previous day, but he did not go.  He was supposed to attend a certain trial at Nelspruit.  And it was indicated that a final decision as to the transfer to Maritzburg would be made as soon as Romeo came back and we agreed on this.
	Dr Sipho Mzimela who is Minister of the Correctional Services, and he was an IFP minister at the time and also holding a high position as a Deputy General Secretary for Inkatha nationally, and he requested that the white officers excuse us so that we could discuss as a family and the four of us remained; Israil, Fangwane, Mzimela and so on.
	The first thing that we discussed was finding a way of getting out of prison.  We wanted to know what the position was regarding that.  And secondly we discussed the TRC.
	With reference to the TRC Dr Mzimela indicated where the IFP stood, and he did not mince his words.  He indicated that they were first of all not involved in the formation of the TRC and therefore they were not towing that line.  And he indicated that the TRC is nothing but the political ploy of the ANC to get their enemy.  And also that they knew that - that was '95 at the time; the TRC has not started yet, but it was known that the TRC was underway.  But it hadn't started working at the time.  And Dr Mzimela indicated that the TRC is just but an ANC wing which was to be used to undermine the integrity of all organisations they were opposed to; organisations like the IFP and therefore they were not in favour of the TRC idea.
	And it transpired that this would place us in a difficult position.  We started wondering as to whether we should submit our application to the TRC or not.  And Dr Mzimela started asking as to whether our names were included in the list of the IFP.  And he started to make a call.  We don't know who he was calling at the office, but he seemed to be speaking to his secretary.  And he wanted to establish through the computer as to whether our names were included in the list of the IFP for those people who were implicated in political activities.
	And apparently it transpired that our names were not included in the list, and therefore our names had to be included in the list.  Things such as our names, prison numbers, dates of sentences and so forth; charges for which we were sentenced.  And we gave him all this information and he gave this information in turn to the person with whom he was speaking on the phone.  And he instructed that files be made ready.   He was going to check them as soon as he got to his office.
	And he promised us that they were going to do something about our release.  And that was the last we saw of him.  We never hear of him from then on.

MR WILLS: (Indistinct) the implication of your evidence is that what he was going to do about your release did not involve the TRC.  Am I correct in assuming that?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, it wouldn't involve the TRC because he had already mentioned that the IFP was against the existence of the TRC.  So what he was going to do wouldn't involve the TRC.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  Mr Mkhize, just finally to clarify one aspect of your evidence before you conclude.  We've heard the evidence of Mr Luthuli who indicated that when you were given orders by persons in authority over you, you had to obey those orders unquestionably and you conducted or you executed those orders without questioning them.  Now does the same apply - as I understand your position, you also were in a position of authority in that you were the local commander of what I think the media has called the Esikhawini Hit Squad.  Now you were in charge of certain people, for example Mr Mbambo, certain instances Mr Zwele Dlamini, Mr Fangwane and others.  Does the same apply - if you were to give those persons an order, were they obliged to follow it in the same way as you were obliged to follow orders that you received from your superiors?

DJ MKHIZE: There was no other option that they had.  They had to execute that instruction as was if they wanted to stay alive.

MR WILLS: Finally Mr Mkhize, we've heard over the last five or six days, particularly in the last two days, a tail of horror, murder and brutality that you were integrally involved in.  Now there's many people here who've come to hear what you've got to say.  What have you got to say to them?