Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I think I stated before, that he is the person who recruited us.  At the time of this incident, he had already died.  That was on the 27th of December 1993 and this incident occurred on the 16th of March 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are actually saying to this Committee is that the killing of Mr Mkhabela was not committed as a result of any order having come from any Commander and definitely not from Skananda?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Commander if there was any, of your Unit?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Mabutsha had already died, his assistant was Joseph Lehlarelo, he is the person with whom we were operating.

CHAIRPERSON: And by March 1994, did you regard Joseph Lehlarelo as having been a Commander of your Unit?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Mabutsha trusted him a lot.  When we were supposed to engage in activities, we were supposed to meet him first.

CHAIRPERSON: No, answer my question and just confine your responses to the question I have put to you.  Did you regard Mr Joseph Lehlarelo as having been your Commander in March 1994 and particularly by the 16th of March 1994?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did every member of your Unit regard him as your Commander?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge, when do you think he assumed command of your Unit, was it immediately after the death of Mr Mabutsha?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You may proceed Mr Mohlaba.  Obviously you note the concern one has when it comes to this portion of his evidence and hopefully you will deal with it extensively.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  Do you Mr Selahle, know where Joseph is presently?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Joseph Lehlarelo is in the army.

MR MOHLABA: When you completed this application form, were you assisted by somebody throughout or you were only joined by comrade Skananda who assisted you with regard to this paragraph only?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Comrade Skananda assisted us with the filling of these forms.

MR MOHLABA: And is it your handwriting which appears on the other paragraphs, I would note here that at the foot of paragraph 11, there are two distinct handwritings here, and do you confirm the rest of the handwriting to be yours?  Did you complete it in your own hand or did you ask somebody to do it for you?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The handwriting is mine, sir.

MR MOHLABA: How did comrade Skananda assist you, was he dictating answers to be put on this particular form or just tell us how it happened?  Did you complete this form at your own, and where you had problems, consulted with comrade Skananda?  Just explain what happened?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I filled this form myself.  As I was going through and did not understand something, I would stop and ask him if he would explain to me what was required of me.

MR MOHLABA: Is there any reason why the name of Joseph was not inserted in this paragraph?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Sorry, I do not understand your question sir.

MR MOHLABA: Joseph who was at the time of this incident, your Commander, do you know of any reason why you omitted to put, to insert his name here?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: When we planned the murder of this person, it was all of us, not only him.  He is not the person who said go and do it, all of us were together, planning it.
	He was taking part as all other members of the group.

MR MOHLABA: So in other words you all contributed to this planning of the death of Mr Mkhabela, without anyone giving your orders specifically, you didn't have a superior who ordered you to go and carry out that transaction, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: May we ascertain Mr Mohlaba, what standard did you achieve at school Mr Selahle?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I passed standard 9 and I did not continue to matric.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and when you completed this application form, did you understand, I see it is completed in English, this is an English application form, did you understand the questions which were being asked of you?  Did you fully understand?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I said I filled the form where I understood it.  Where I did not understand, I asked Skananda as to what was happening and he would explain exactly what was needed, what was required of me.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you did not fully understand the questions that were being asked of you, in order to complete the application form properly?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I did not understand some of the questions.  Those questions which I did not understand, I referred to Skananda and he assisted me.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall which questions you did not understand?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The question about nature and particulars, I did not understand that, he assisted me.

MR MOHLABA: If I may interpose, that refers to paragraph 9(a)(v) on page 43 of the paginated document.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he then dictate to you, I was still going on but I wanted to allow the sound of the car to go passed, did he then dictate to you what you had to put under that paragraph?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He was telling me how I should write it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The question is written in English and I can understand English, I can write it, but where I could not get the questions clearly, he would ask me in Sotho what was asked of me and then I would tell him, and he would say that in English.

CHAIRPERSON: He then dictated to you what you had to put down in respect of those paragraphs you did not understand, yes or no?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to identify also other paragraphs you did not understand and to which you had Skananda to assist you.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Justification regarding such acts or omission or offences associated with a political objective.
	These are the questions he helped me with.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And you have already identified paragraph 11(b) as having been completed with his assistance and that is when he said he is prepared to assume responsibility?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he assist you to complete paragraph 11(a)?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He assisted with paragraph 11(a) as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else?  Have you identified all the paragraphs now in respect of which you were assisted by Skananda?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I am satisfied I mentioned them all.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the Commander of the prison advise you that the Amnesty Committee had prescribed regulations in terms of which you could have been legally assisted if you so requested, through him, which legal assistance would have enabled you to complete your application form?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: They did not tell us anything.  Had they told us, I would not have requested Skananda to assist me in the filling of these forms.  They just gave us these forms and said fill these forms in.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you were in fact given an application form for amnesty, that important information about you being able to get legal assistance if you so requested, was not conveyed to you by the Commander?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We were not fed that information.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mohlaba.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  So the last question I posed to you, you are saying that you did not mention a Commander because everybody in your Unit had participated in this planning of the death of Mkhabela, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Can you, you have also been convicted of unlawful possession of a firearm and having perused the court record, it appears that there is evidence that you threw away an object which was apparently a firearm while you were running away.  Did you do that?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is not correct.

MR MOHLABA: On this particular day, were you in possession of a firearm or ammunition?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I did not have anything.