Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

MR MOKOENA: In fact as to the organise was it was that time, we were acting, there was a closed communication link between ourselves as the Youth League and the mother body of the ANC, particularly moreover the fact that at the time we were the youth and our township was reigned by violence and all sorts of those things, so we as the Youth League at that time were there to upgrade or maybe maintain amongst other things, peace amongst the entire youth of Kutsaong and to forecast all the long and ongoing struggle of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, there is no difficulty in understanding that.  I think my colleague here wants to know how you were connected organisationally, did the Youth League function on its own, independent of the ANC?  You told us that you were in close contact, I can understand close contact but organisationally was there anything, any structures that met and took decisions jointly with the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, the ANC did have the mother body and the Youth League too as an Executive Committee, but what we did as members that time, I'm sure that the mother body too did understand what was happening between the ANC Youth League and the mother body.  So we were not there by ourselves, the mother body too was there.  So anything we did that time as members of the Youth League, the mother body too had a full knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS GCABASHE: Now in the context of that, why is it that you had two secretary generals?  You had Jeremiah Ramagotedi and you have Mahuma, you knew of Mahuma.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I knew of Mahuma.

MS GCABASHE: Now explain having the two secretary generals for the one ANC Youth League, just to help me understand how that worked.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, like I've said, that comrade Oupa Ramagotedi, I knew him as one of the interim Executive Committee, even though I did not know what his portfolio was but Mr Cassius Mahuma was the General Secretary.  If then he was not the General Secretary, then he could have been the Minute Secretary because most of that time during the meetings, Mr Mahuma was the one who was drafting the minutes in the meeting.

MS GCABASHE: So in terms of membership lists, it's Makuma who would know that you were active members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: Actually the entire committee did know.  Right now, Mr Hendrik van Rooyen who is my co-accused was serving within the Interim Committee as a Secretary Organiser and a membership officer.

MS GCABASHE: Okay.  Now one last aspect on this.  Your own position, did you hold a particular position, even if it's in Block 7. in your area?

MR MOKOENA: Not just in the area of Block 7 but around the township.

MS GCABASHE: What was your position?

MR MOKOENA: I was acting as a self-defence unit member.

MS GCABASHE: But you were not here of the local branch or of the Street Committee or anything like that, you didn't have an official position within the organisation?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, as the SDU structure was not constituently launched that time.

MS GCABASHE: Now you have told us about three different incidents, starting from 1989 up to the time that these particular deceased were killed by you.  Now before the 7th of September 1991, what discussions had you held with the ANC mother body about the problems you were experiencing in Block 7?  Had you strategised, had you discussed, had you found a plan of action, can you explain that to me?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course I can.  Actually, since the then situation was a violent one, it was not just from the ANC Youth League but from the entire community, the supporters and the followers of the ANC, that there was a need that the community
should be protected and now that they Youth League members of the Youth League, the entire Youth League around the township were totally disturbed by what was going on as violence was the order of the day, breaking and stopping the day to day schooling, hurting and destroying the minds of those who were with the ideals of the ANC at the time.

MS GCABASHE: But did you discuss a plan of action with the ANC leadership: "This is what we are going to as the ANC in Kutsaong", did you do that?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, in fact, what was planned that time, what was about to be a plan which was proposed by the ANC Youth League, was first to establish or to reach a peace settlement as violence was the order of the day and finally to have a formally launched ANC Youth League branch around the township.

MS GCABASHE: A slightly different aspect, that of the political affiliation of these gangs, these gangsters, that includes the deceased, KK and Sedisa, now you have said that you don't know of their political affiliation, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

MS GCABASHE: But you have also talked about police assistance being given to these particular gangs, you specifically talk about the police not following up on reports that were made to them.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, on crimes that were reported to them.

MS GCABASHE: Yes.  Now were there other activities that the police were involved in, apart from not following up the criminal acts that you reported, were there other ways in which the police assisted these gangs?

MR MOKOENA: Actually from the gang the one where the two deceased were affiliated, I won't say much except the fact that to our concern that time, it was clear that there was a link if not a relationship with the police officers that time.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED