Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately you do, I don't know.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon?

MR STEPHENS: I said unfortunately you do know it, but I don't, because I never heard it unfortunately.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect Mr Chair, I think my learned friend Mr Berger is perhaps in this regard relying on the ballistic evidence.  It was merely one of the possibilities that somebody was firing from the southerly direction of Plein Street in a northerly direction up King George Street, it hasn't been established as a fact on my interpretation of the evidence.  It was put as mere congexture of a possibility that might have existed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) your question on the basis there was a possibility this didn't happen.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the evidence that I'm referring to was that the ANC witnesses said that there was a SADF person who fired a shot, that was the - the Police said that there was an ANC person who fired a shot.  So it was disputed as to who actually fired the shot, but the fact that the shot was fired, as I understand the evidence, was not disputed.  Perhaps Mr Dorfling could comment on that.

MR DORFLING: I don't think that's being disputed.  I was talking of the direction from the Plein Street side in a northerly direction, into King George.  That's what I thought my learned friend was aiming at.

MR BERGER: No, that's not what I was saying at all.

MR STEPHENS: You said the shot was on Wanderers side, hey, in Plein Street, is that the shot you're talking about?

MR BERGER: No, there are two incidents that I'm referring to, there was two or three shots fired ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Two or three, not one round?

MR BERGER: No, no, hang on a second - from a westerly direction, from the Plein Street side, two or three shots were fired.  You never heard that?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately not, no.

MR BERGER: That's Wanderers ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: I know where that is.

MR BERGER: Towards the intersection of Wanderers and Plein, you know where that is?

MR STEPHENS: H'n.

MR BERGER: Then I'm saying that there was a shot fired in the immediate vicinity of your shop, near the corner of Plein and King George.

MR STEPHENS: That was the one that was disputed between the SADF and the security guard?

MR BERGER: Correct.

MR STEPHENS: Or the ANC ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: And the Police and the guard.

MR STEPHENS: Ja, I never heard that shot either.  How long before the actual shooting did this happen?

MR BERGER: Shortly before, a couple of minutes before the actual shooting.

MR STEPHENS: A couple of minutes, no I didn't hear it.

MR BERGER: You never heard that.  Then there is also evidence that shots were fired from somewhere further up - further north of De Villiers Street.

MR STEPHENS: But in King George?

MR BERGER: No, not in King George.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Shots in De Villiers Street and further north of that towards Park Station, you never heard any of those shots?

MR STEPHENS: When you say the shots came from that direction, is it more towards Wanderers side, or is it more towards Plein?

MR BERGER: Wanderers side.

MR STEPHENS: Wanderers side as well, no I never heard that either.

MR BERGER: As you were in your shop, you had a clear view up King George Street, past De Villiers Street, towards Noord Street, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Well as far as the first line of marchers were, yes, I had a clear view.

MR BERGER: I will read to you what you said at page 2513 of the record Mr Stephens, I don't know if it was me who asked you - yes

MR BERGER: "If I understand you correctly, you were standing behind the counter in your shop looking north up King George Street?"  Answer: "Correct".

MR BERGER: 		"And did you have a clear view all the way from where you were, right up, past De Villiers Street up to Noord Street?"

WITNESS: Answer:  "Basically, yes I did."

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that?

MR STEPHENS: I do.  When - there was two parts to it, cause you said up to De Villiers up to Noord, because in the beginning in Noord Street the marchers were up to Noord and then they moved down to De Villiers, so I could only see up until the first line of marchers.  After that, obviously with the people, I wouldn't be able to see further past.  But I did have a fairly clear view, yes.

MR BERGER: Yes.  But before ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Besides ...

MR BERGER: Before the marchers got to De Villiers, you could see all the way up to Noord Street, am I right?

MR STEPHENS: Basically yes, a fairly good - a fairly clear view.

MR BERGER: And you were inquisitive to see what was going on, correct?

MR STEPHENS: From time to time, yes.

MR BERGER: I read again to you at the top of page 2515 of your evidence, I asked - bottom of 2514,

MR BERGER: "What was it about the group that made you concentrate them?

WITNESS:  I do not know about concentration, I was not concentrating on them, I was just basically looking at them."

MR BERGER: "Yes, and you continued to look at them?" -

MR BERGER: question.

MR BERGER: Answer:  "Yes, because we are inquisitive to see what is going on."

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that?

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now what you saw, if I understand your evidence at the inquest correctly, is that the marchers started gathering in King George Street near the intersection with Noord Street, correct?

MR STEPHENS: It looked that way, yes.

MR BERGER: And this process of the marchers gathering took approximately  1/2  hour, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Give or take 10 minutes, I'd say yes.

MR BERGER: The  1/2  hour is your estimation, page 2523 of the record.

MR STEPHENS: Ja, it was an approximate estimation, yes.

MR BERGER: And the marchers were coming from all directions?

MR STEPHENS: I wouldn't say marchers as in groups, I'd say on the individual basis, yes - individual marchers.

MR BERGER: Let met read to you at 2523, I asked you
"You say it looked like they were coming from both sides to fill up the street?" Answer:  "Ja, they were coming one by one, two/three people sort of joining in."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: "Some were even coming up King George Street from Plein Street, walking up there as well."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Question

MR BERGER: "To join the marchers?"

MR BERGER: Answer:  "I take it, yes."

MR BERGER: Question:  "Well the people who were going up King George Street towards the marchers seemed to you to be marchers themselves?"  Answer:  "Yes."

MR BERGER: 		"Going to join the march?

WITNESS:  Yes."

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And some of these people were carrying their traditional weapons?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, they were.

MR BERGER: And they were walking from Plein Street, all they way up Plein Street, over De Villiers Street ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: King George.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon, all the way up King George Street, over De Villiers, continued up King George Street to Noord Street to join this group of marchers?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.  When I say one or two, it might only have been one or two, but the majority were coming from the top end, and most of the people, or marchers that were joining, went along Plein Street, some in the Wanderers direction and some in Klein direction and actually came around and joined.  There were one or two that actually went up King George itself.

MR BERGER: No you didn't say one or two, you say "some were even coming", but I won't quarrel with that.

MR STEPHENS: Some.

MR BERGER: And this whole process took approximately  1/2  hour?

MR STEPHENS: Don't hold me to it, but roundabout there, I wasn't exactly timing them, but within - like I said, within 10 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, I'm not sure.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Stephens, what is strange about your evidence, and a lot of other evidence that you give, is that nobody, and I literally mean nobody else describes this as having happened, you stand alone on this point.