Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-23

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: When the UDF was absorbed into the ANC, I knew that I was a member of the ANC, membership cards were brought to us in the area and an explanation was given to us that the UDF was being absorbed into the ANC and we were therefore becoming ANC members, and we received those membership cards.  That is when I became a member of the ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At the time of committing this offence, for how long had you been a member of the ANC then, because you say you are a member, normal supporter?

CHAIRPERSON: He said since the time it was absorbed.  Do you know how long before the time of this incident, that occurred?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (Microphone not on)

CHAIRPERSON: He said he became a member since the UDF was absorbed into the ANC and somebody came and gave them membership cards.  I don't think it is really relevant that we know how long before it was, or the date.  It doesn't make much difference.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, to me it is relevant because I am disputing that he was ever a member and that this act was committed ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he said that since the time of absorption and he got a card, that is what he said.  You can continue on that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When was the UDF absorbed into the ANC, just give us the year?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Although I cannot remember correctly, but it was between 1989 and 1990.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you filled in this application form, were you already a member of the ANC, I want to believe?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your application you wrote here that you are a supporter of the ANC, page 2 Mr Chairman and members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see that.  Do you have a copy of your application Mr Ntuli?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, if you can just take a look at Mr Mchunu's copy there, you will see that is your application form.  Take a look at paragraph 7(b) on the first page thereof.
	You will see there that it is written in, 7(a) says that were you a member, office bearer, supporter of any liberation movement, it has been written African National Congress, and then 7(b) the capacity and there it is written supporter.  Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes, I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why did you write that you were a supporter when you were actually a member at that time?

CHAIRPERSON: If you can speak a little bit louder Mr Ntuli, the people sitting at the back also would like to hear.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Because of the situation within the organisation, in kwaMakutha, we had experienced problems in acquiring these membership cards.  It transpired that the membership cards that we had received, had to be renewed annually and I had not paid the full membership fee for the year.
	My membership came to an end in June of that year and I did not renew my membership.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Am I understanding you now to be saying that you are changing from what you told us that when committing this offence, you were already a member of the ANC, you are now saying you were not a member at the time?  You are changing?

MR MCHUNU: Mr Chairman, if, without really objecting really, I think the applicant said that when the UDF was absorbed into the ANC, he became a member of the ANC, he got a card.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think Mr Mpshe, clearly on the last answer - is that he never renewed his membership.  This incident occurred in 1991.  Did your membership of the ANC, when you got that card, you said you never paid the full membership fee and you did not renew it, had that occurred before the occurrence of this incident that your membership lapsed because of non-payment of the fee or renewal of your membership?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes, when the incident happened, the membership fee had elapsed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I won't pursue it, but I just want to put it on record, that he had said when I put a question to him.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, we are aware and now, it is clear that he wasn't actually a member at the time of the incident.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am indebted to the Chair, thank you.  I want you to turn to page 3 of your application, under nature and particulars Mr Chairman and members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: That is right at the top of the page Mr Ntuli, the top of page 3, you will see (iv) that says nature and particulars.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be line four, but I will read for convenience - where it says everybody in the community knew that Msani had sold our brother out.  Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, then you continue to say, the comrades then planned to kill Msani, whom we saw as an informer.  Do you see that?  I want to know from you, who are these comrades who killed to plan Msani?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: With regards to the comrades, there would sometimes be discussions that would be held outside formal meetings.  Although I cannot remember the names, but there was this belief that Msani was the one who had actually told the Police about Mduduzi.
	This was something we had heard from the comrades, because I also heard about it from the comrades, that indeed Msani was the one who had told on Mduduzi.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ntuli, were you ever in that meeting where the planning to kill this man, was done?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I was not present at that meeting because it was not a formal meeting.  The community was not informed that Ndlandhla had indeed reported the matter to the Police, but it was something that was discussed amongst comrades.
	As I explained before, the situation compelled us to operate in little groups, because anything and everything could have happened because of the violence.
	That is how Ndlandhla's issue came about and how it was discussed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do I understand you Mr Ntuli to be saying that there was no meeting where the planning of the killing of Msani was planned, is that what you are saying now?

MR LAX: He is not saying that.  With the greatest respect, he is saying there was no formal meeting of the community.  I think you need to clarify that.

CHAIRPERSON: He said there was no formal meeting there, but there were meetings of comrades, but he said that he was not present at that meeting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you are ready to eliminate an informer, would you hold a formal community meeting?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: No.  We would not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was there a meeting, was there a formal meeting where the killing of Msani was planned?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that they wouldn't hold a formal meeting, now you are asking whether a formal meeting was held.  Aren't we wasting time Mr Mpshe?
	Was any meeting held, an informal meeting you mean?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When was the killing of Msani planned?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Mr Msani's death was not planned, because we were not sure that he had indeed committed this act.  We would have found out the truth from him, and if he had been guilty, he would have been killed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So there was no planning?

CHAIRPERSON: My note says Mr Msani's death was not planned as we were not sure that he killed the deceased, so you are asking him, so there was no plan?  He has just said it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ntuli look at the paragraph I have just referred you to, page 3.  I will read that line for your convenience.
	The comrades then planned to kill Msani, why did you tell us that then, they planned, when you say there was no planning?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: From the discussions that were held, if it was discovered that it was indeed true that Msani was guilty, it was well known that if a person committed such a crime, if he was an informer, he would be killed.  But this is something that was not discussed in a formal meeting, but it was something that was discussed in groups, when we saw each other.
	That is from the rumour that we had heard about Ndlandhla.