Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: I've got a copy here which is - well, unfortunately my copy has already been marked, so it's no longer in the public domain.  Mr Berger, how many pages does your copy have?

MR BERGER: I have 38, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You've got 138?

MR BERGER: 38.

CHAIRPERSON: 38?

MR BERGER: Thirty eight.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.  Mr Lowies, you've got to recount your pages.

MR LOWIES: Chair, I will check.  I don't want to make my problem everybody else's.  I'll check.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be an arithmetic problem.

MR LOWIES: With me it's possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Would you have Adv Sigodi's copy then?
DISCUSSION REGARDING COPIES

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, may I remind you that you are still under oath?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: (cont)
	Thank you, Chairman.
	Mr Baloyi, your neighbour that lives opposite you, is that John Buwa, spelt B-U-W-A?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: He lives at 807, Bafokeng Street.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: He testified during the criminal hearing ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know because they were frequenting the court.

MR STRYDOM: Just for record purposes, his testimony appears in volume 20, on page 2291.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this house number?

MR STRYDOM: 807, Bafokeng Street.
	He testified that he heard shots being fired before the people entered his house.  Now I want to know, did you hear any shots?  You referred to noises yesterday, but did you hear any shots just before you saw the crown outside Mr Buwa's house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not hear any shots at Buwa's place.  I only head shots at Nqwale's place.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, before I forget, I measured the distances.  The first distance that was estimated from the witness to myself is approximately seven paces and the distance from the witness to the back wall is 12 paces.

MR LAX: What about the witness to the fourth row there, that's the other distance.

MR STRYDOM: No, that one I didn't measure, I forgot about that one, I will do that in due course.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: Now you estimated yesterday that there were some people, you said there were some people in front of Mr Buwa's house and you were asked by, I think, Adv Sigodi, to indicate how many people were in that group where you said you saw Mtwana.   Now Mr Buwa was asked how many people he saw in front of his house and he said 60 people, would you agree with that figure, approximately 60 people?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That was his testimony.  The group that I saw outside could have been six to seven, there were not many.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to people who came out of his house, that were six or seven?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what counsel is putting to you is the approximate number of people who were in front of Buwa's house on the street.

MR STRYDOM: I think I'll read the relevant portion, just to make certain what the reference was.  Mr Buwa said he heard noises and he heard a shot going off, then he went to his window.  Then he testifies as follows: the male persons which he saw on the side of the street, he saw them in Bafokeng Street.  And then a question was asked
"Can you tell the court how many people did you see in Bafokeng Street?"
And then the answer was:
"I estimate 60"
And then he went further:
"Could you see if these persons were armed?"
Answer:
"No, I could not see it clearly because  it was dark"
So before his house was attacked he went to the window and he saw 60 people outside his house, did you also see 60 people in front of his house before the house was attacked?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not see 60 people.  There was no time really to count the number of people who were standing there.  There were several of them, but they could not have been 60.  He is giving testimony about what he knows.

CHAIRPERSON: That evidence is what Mr Buwa saw as he looked through the window.  That is before his house was attacked, do you understand that?  That is what he is saying.  He says, before his house was attacked, when he looked through the window he saw approximately 60 people on the street.  I think what counsel wants to find out from you is whether you can comment on that.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, no, I cannot.

MR STRYDOM: You also testified yesterday that the situation of the light was such that you could see as well as in daylight.  I want to put to you that Mr Buwa stated at the trial that he couldn't see if these people were armed because it was dark.  Do you want to comment on his testimony?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot comment on what Buwa said.  I am only talking about that which I saw personally.  It was so bright you could see a person from a distance.  Buwa is only testifying to what he knows.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  After the attack on your house and when you went outside, did you see Mr Buwa?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't get your question.

MR STRYDOM: You testified yesterday that after the attackers left, you went outside and at a certain stage your wife was also outside, did you see Mr Buwa as well?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, yes I saw him, because people were injured there.  I am the person responsible for first aid in that street, as well as Mogotso.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  At the time you saw ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the other person?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Mogotso.

MR STRYDOM: When you saw Mr Buwa were there still police vehicles in the vicinity?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They had already left, they had already gone to kwaMadala Hostel.  We could see them moving to the hostel, being followed by the Hippos from behind, and they went to KwaMadala Hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Did you point that out to Mr Buwa?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He had been attacked, so he was supposed to have seen it for himself.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that Mr Buwa also made mention in his testimony of a koyoko, but he testified as follows - I'll just put you in the picture.  He said at the stage his house was attacked, he ran away and hid him somewhere.  Then he said
"Whilst I was hiding I saw a Koyoko move in the vicinity of the garage in the direction of the town"
And then it was asked of him:
"In which street did the Koyoko move, can you remember?"
He repeated:
"It moved down the street which will take you to the town"
		"Is that Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?"
		"Yes"

MR STRYDOM: Now that's the only Koyoko he saw.  So do you still maintain that you saw all those other koyoko's?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying I am not here to testify about what was said, I'm only getting that from you.  I saw koyokos and I stand by that evidence.

MR LAX: Mr Strydom, could you just give us the various references of these bits of evidence that you've quoted.  You gave us where is evidence started, but you've referred now to two separate portions.  If you could just give us the page references for the record.

MR STRYDOM: The first reference is on page 2292, the accused says the first five lines, and the second reference is page 2293, from line 10 to approximately line 17.

MR LAX: Thanks very much.

MR STRYDOM: When the three attackers came into your house with the red headbands, where were you situation in the house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was inside the house, in the sitting-room.

MR STRYDOM: In your testimony yesterday you said that: "I stood in front of the bedroom door and one of the attackers wanted to hack me, and then I went into the room."
So can you just explain that please, what was your position?