Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: By doing so I didn't look any kind of a benefit but to do that I did that to protect the community at Kotlhanong in Odendaalsrus. I did that to protect the
BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
MR MPSHE	43	MR HLOBO
citizens in an area under the tense situations in which we lived at that time.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just a minute, Mr Interpreter am I correct in saying that in the language that the applicant is using, using now, his own language, you use one and the same word for the English words defend and protect?

INTERPRETER: Yes it's one word.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you expect any change by these killings?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I looked that there should be change by the killings which we executed so that the government which we lived under - by seeing the changes in which we were living in as we were living under oppression in previous years under that former government.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Hlobo how do you feel now about this incident?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: At this moment I regret for what I did.  It was not by intention, it was because of the situations in which we found ourselves at that time, but I regret in regards to this action.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If given an opportunity to say something to the next of kin of the victims what would you say to them?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: If I am given the opportunity to meet the next of kin of the victims I would ask forgiveness as I am before this Committee about the atrocities which I have committed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, thank you, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE MGOEPE: How far was the nearest White residential area from the township where the deceased were killed?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: It's a distance Sir, it's quite a distance, it's a distance Sir.
BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
JUDGE MGOEPE	44	MR HLOBO

JUDGE MGOEPE: You are not able to indicate how many metres or kilometres?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: Which place do you mean Sir?

JUDGE MGOEPE: The distance between Kothlanong and the nearest White residential area?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: It's quite a distance Sir, it's quite a distance.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Ja how many kilos or you don't know, if you don't know just tell me you don't know?  But if you know just indicate how kilos it is.

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I cannot estimate how many kilometres Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How many minutes walk?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: About 30 minutes because you should need transport either by bus or by taxi, you cannot use your feet to go there, it's quite a distance by taking a walk.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now the 30 minutes is it by taxi or by bus, as opposed by on foot?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: It's about 30 to 20 minutes because it's quite a distance Sir as I have already explained.

JUDGE MGOEPE: 20 minutes by what, on foot or by bus?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: By foot Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: You in fact gave the order that they should be killed?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: Yes I gave that instruction that they should be killed.

ADV DE JAGER: And as a marshal you were not entitled to give orders?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I got powers to give orders at times, but at the time I didn't get an authority to give an order for those people to be killed.
BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
ADV DE JAGER	45	MR HLOBO

ADV DE JAGER: So you decided that on your own?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: This decision for these people to be killed I did it on my own Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you see Mr Matela before the killing?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: I didn't meet Mr Matela before at that time, I only met him during the proceedings of the case as we were attending this case together.  That is where I met him.

ADV DE JAGER: Now you gave the order, did you participate in the killing?

THAMI BETWELO HLOBO: Yes I did play a role, a major role in the killing.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: You may go, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE