Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I saw it put in a plastic, then I saw that it's a small dress.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) take it out the plastic.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Jimmy's lawyer took it out of the plastic.

CHAIRPERSON: And what colour was it?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't see it well, I saw a black colour. I didn't see the colour well of the dress, but I saw it, it was like black.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you see the colour well?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson, it was on the floor at the corner next to the box there, the corner, so it was a little bit darkish.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) just in a pile or was it laid out?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It was lying on the floor, it was put on the floor.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it plain?  Was it plain or did it have a pattern?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not see it well, Chairperson, but I just observed that it is not the size which can fit Ms Kubheka.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Lax.

MR LAX: It seems to me you hardly even look at this dress, because you looked at it yesterday and you can't even remember the colour.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I forgot my spectacles at home.  I even stated on my applications that the sickness which I suffer affected my eyesight.  So I forgot my spectacles at home.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) spectacles don't give you colour, you can see the colour of this light.  Here in front of me, is it red?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I'm able to see a particular colour through my spectacles.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) tablecloth?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It has a green colour and a white colour

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) tablecloth and your table, right there where your hand is?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It's in white colour.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) this side.  It's blue.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It's blue.

MR LAX: Well you haven't got your glasses on now.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson, yesterday's dress was on the floor and then on the floor it's a little bit dark, you're not able to see it clearly.  That's what I'm saying, that I would not be able to identify the colour of that cloth, but it was in a darkish colour.

MR LAX: You see, we're going to need to rely on your evidence to say whether it might have fitted Kubheka or not, amongst other things, and yet you looked at it yesterday and you can't even tell us what colour it was, how are we supposed to rely on that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Because I'm saying that because they were on the floor and then I saw them that they were not well ironed and they were in a darkish colour, you'll not be able to see a red or black colour in a darkish area.  So because we have light today, it's visible, I'll be able to identify the colour.

MR LAX: Now you said in your evidence-in-chief, it was suggested to you that almost the whole of Vlakplaas was down here.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: What were the rest of them doing?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: They were going to railway stations, taxi ranks inside town.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) identify members of MK?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson, askaris were trying to identify PAC and ANC members.

MR LAX: How many members of this cell did you hand over to Hentie Botha and his men?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Two members Chairperson, if I remember well.

MR LAX: Plus Ms Kubheka?

CHAIRPERSON: Including or plus?  Two members including Ms Kubheka, or two members and also Ms Kubheka, making it three?  What is it?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, including Ms Kubheka.

MR LAX: Was it three in total?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I remember Ms Kubheka and the one we dropped at KwaMashu.  That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You told us that you were anxious to get back to your quarters because you hadn't washed or changed your clothes for several days, how long was that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Approximately a week plus days, or two weeks.

MR LAX: So between one and two weeks?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And what were you doing that was so important that you couldn't go back to your quarters and change or wash?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Because we were afraid that one person may see us entering CR Swart.  If you were delegated for an operation they would try by all means that these other people would not meet with you or meet with your colleagues or your colleagues meet you before the operation has been accomplished.

MR LAX: So where did you stay for that week to two weeks?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: At Winkelspruit, in the kombi.

MR LAX: Well why did deny that when Mr Samuel put that to you?  Why did you insist so vehemently that no, you stayed at CR Swart Square?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I only disputed that aspect of after the operation, that we - I was disputing that when he said we left after the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Lax.
	It just doesn't seem to make any sense to me, Mr Radebe, now you're on an operation, the nature of which entails that you should not be seen entering into CR Swart in case your cover would be blown, yet all your clothes and toiletries are at CR Swart and you're going to spend now one to two weeks at Winkelspruit, why not take your toiletries and clothes to Winkelspruit, why have then in a place that's inaccessible and you've got to go around smelling and dirty?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson, at times it happens that after two or three days the operation would be completed.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Lax.

MR LAX: What exactly were you doing for that ten days?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We would go to KwaMashu, return, trying to gather information about Lusaka.

MR LAX: So you'd return to Winkelspruit?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: What vehicle did you use on all these occasions?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: A white kombi.

MR LAX: You never used the Corolla?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember using a Corolla, I was driving a kombi at all occasions.

MR LAX: Mr Botha says he saw you arrive there in a Corolla, with Kubheka.  At Battery Beach.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I said Chairperson, that I remember about the kombi.  I knew about the kombi, but I don't remember me driving a kombi.

MR LAX: You remember the Corolla though, there was a Corolla that was part your operations, that was used from time to time.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We were not using that Corolla, it was parked at Winkelspruit.

MR LAX: So it was present at Winkelspruit?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now when you got to Winkelspruit, who was waiting there for you?  On your average day, because this thing happened over a period of one to two weeks.  Did you arrange that there would be a certain time for reporting or ... how would you make contact with people so someone would know you would be coming back to Winkelspruit to report?  Was there a permanent presence there?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, other whites were staying there.

MR LAX: Well who was staying there?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I remember Botha, McCarthy(?), Joe Coetzer and other Durban members whom I did not know there names or their surnames.

MR LAX: Were they all staying there, sleeping there at night?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, when we went back to sleep in the kombi, we would find them and their cars there.

MR LAX: And so when you got your instructions you got your instructions there?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see you told us earlier you got your instructions at CR Swart Square, not at Winkelspruit.  Was that a mistake?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Chairperson, initially I received my instructions at CR Swart.  Maybe you did not understand me well.  When we started with the operation I received instructions from CR Swart, from Ras, then from there he was not involved in the operation.