Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

TAMSANQA DUMA: There were so many operations of course for that night but things were not well after he came back to me.

ADV DE JAGER: But the following day?

TAMSANQA DUMA: The following day already the police were busy investigating, so many police and detectives cars, so I stopped them to carry on.

ADV DE JAGER: And after a few weeks?

TAMSANQA DUMA: After a few weeks according to the information which I got from other forces in the township, that the people are suspicious of Mr Biko.  I knew that there's something wrong concerning that operation and then I decided to take him out of the town.

ADV DE JAGER: You really needed these weapons, according to your affidavit, to protect yourself against the ANC?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I needed those weapons urgently to carry our struggle forward, the armed struggle, as APLA was waging the armed struggle by the time, as well as the protection of the PAC members at Fort Beaufort because I knew that I will give the weapons to the commanders of the task forces so that they could arm themselves as well as the task forces to gain a certain portion of that township so that it can be the side of the PAC as the ANC was nearly taking the whole township under their control.  So they were supposed to fight back with firearms because the ANC was shooting.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they kill any of your people?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes, they killed.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you give any weapon to Mr Veveza that afternoon?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you leave any weapons with Mr Biko, Mabuti?  The other one, what is his name?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yengeni.

ADV DE JAGER: Zukile Biko, did you give him any weapons?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No, but I understand he should have a weapon because he was one of the task force commandos, commanders there.

ADV DE JAGER: What happened to the weapons that got from Mr Franciscato?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I took the weapons to Transkei for a change so that I can get another weapons.

ADV DE JAGER: And you say you didn't have any - there wasn't any shotgun with those weapons?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes, because they gave me three pistols and a rifle, 2.2.

ADV SANDI: How were they to launch the attack at Durban Street with bayonets?

TAMSANQA DUMA: By the way their commander had explained to me about that house, I've seen that there was no use of handing over maybe two or three pistols to him.  I just gave him one .38 because he told me that maybe he will get that guy alone or if they are two they are not a problem.

ADV SANDI: You say there were many places to be attacked that evening, did you say that?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Who knew about such places?

TAMSANQA DUMA: It was our comrades in the township who were busy collecting the information which I trained them to go and collect in town.

ADV SANDI: Had Biko, Veveza and Yengeni been briefed about such possible targets?

TAMSANQA DUMA: No, because by the time I was believing in one thing, that I can't tell you of the operation of which I don't know what would you think thereafter.  I can tell about the operation and then thereafter I can't get hold of you and then the operation will carry on.  After that the information will leak because the operation just carried and you was not there and then you'll talk about that operation.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear that Veveza and Yengeni say, as far as they were concerned this was just one of those walks to town with Biko?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Do you have anything to say about that, do you have any comment?  Why was that if they were going to be involved in this attack at the house of Cat?

TAMSANQA DUMA: It was good for them not to understand where to because their commander knew where were they going to, that is why he told them on the way that: "We are going to do this and this and this".

ADV SANDI: He actually told them at the gate in front of the house.

TAMSANQA DUMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Not even on the way.

TAMSANQA DUMA: As I've said before it depends to the commander to tell you at what time or where.  They must just listen from him and execute the orders.

ADV SANDI: If you required these weapons in order to be able to defend your members against the ANC aggression, why was it necessary then to kill Mr Franciscato?

TAMSANQA DUMA: For the duty of that Mr Biko as a APLA cadre, not a member of the task force, it was part and parcel of his duties because he knew that in his operations he must go direct to the enemy, not - the task force ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Then why didn't he just shoot like Barend Strydom, all the whites that he came across?

TAMSANQA DUMA: Unfortunately we are not being trained the same and secondly we don't the same way.  If you are fighting as a guerrilla you are fighting for the total
liberation of your country.  You don't just come out, because if you are fighting with the enemy unconventionally, you are supposed to play safe all the time.  You are not supposed to just sell yourself because he was supposed to be convicted or arrested by mistake or die by mistake.  
	So in the guerrilla warfare you can't just go out and shoot the people like what Barend Strydom did.  That is not a guerrilla warfare.

CHAIRPERSON: How many whites did you order to be killed?

TAMSANQA DUMA: If I shoot ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, how many white people have you ordered to be killed?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I have this problem, that the firearms were already acquired when Mr Franciscato was killed.  What was the purpose of killing him when you already acquired possession of the firearms?

TAMSANQA DUMA: As I've said before he was right because I told him that I don't want anything after the operation which will come or become, cause the follow-up of the forces who were operating there.  He must make it a point that there is no information which will come out.

ADV SANDI: How many times have you given an order that a white person be killed, if you can remember the number of white people who were killed as the result of instructions and orders from you?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I can't remember because there are so many.

ADV SANDI: 10, 20, 30, 40?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I can't count because I was not concerned about that.

ADV SANDI: How many times have you given orders that other black people be killed as the result of organisational political conflicts?  Due to that conflict that was taking place in Fort Beaufort between the PAC and ANC, how many times did you give instructions that some people be killed?

TAMSANQA DUMA: It was for the first time at Fort Beaufort because our political struggle was not direct to the oppressed people, it doesn't matter if we differ ideologically.  But it was for the first time at Fort Beaufort.  And I've been given those order at last because they didn't want to speak with us or to talk to us and they went far until they burnt my house of which I think by the time you was defending them, if I'm not mistaken ...[intervention]  ...[inaudible]

ADV SANDI: That was not me, that was my brother, sorry.

TAMSANQA DUMA: ...[inaudible]

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I didn't follow you.  How many people did you say were killed there as the result of orders issued by you?

TAMSANQA DUMA: At Fort Beaufort?  For that first day they burnt our houses down, my house, two of them died in front of my house.

ADV SANDI: In your affidavit you say when you released
from prison you learnt that there was this conflict between the two organisations, what was your first step to try and have this conflict resolved?

TAMSANQA DUMA: I tried - in the first place, I tried to go to Nibiba(?) High School and ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Very briefly Mr Duma, because this is not really relevant.

TAMSANQA DUMA: I tried to meet with the ANC people, and we met in another primary school.  We tried to talk about this with the involvement of Nonabo Bongo(?).  It was the MK cadre.

ADV SANDI: You tried peaceful means.