Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-30

CHAIRPERSON: ... start of these hearings, but it was due to matters beyond our control.  The applicants were only brought through very late.
	Before we start, I would like to just introduce the panel to you.  We are all members of the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, he is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg.  On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni, he is an attorney from Pretoria, and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court.
	I would like to ask the legal representatives, please to place themselves on record.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I am John Wills, an attorney from Pietermaritzburg, I am acting for the applicant.

MS THABETE: I am Thabele Thabete, I am the Evidence Leader in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  These proceedings are going to be translated simultaneously and in order to benefit from the translation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices.  They will be translated into English and Zulu.
	English is on channel 2 and Zulu is on channel 3.  If you wish to benefit from the translation, please get one of these devices, they are available from the front of the room.
	If you don't understand both languages, I can assure you, you will have difficulty in following the proceedings.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I call the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 481, I think it is, is it?  Are you Mr Mzamo Thabani Mlaba?  Mr Mlaba, can you push the red button?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, I am.

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mlaba, you must make sure whenever you are speaking, that the light is on, because if the light is not on, it doesn't get recorded.

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mlaba, are you a member of any political party?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee which political party?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: The ANC.

MR WILLS: When did you become a member of the ANC?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I was a member of the UDF as from 1986.

MR WILLS: You have indicated by way of your indication that you became a member of a Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you explain to the Committee how you became a member of that Unit?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I was trained in Umtata in the Transkei, to be a member of the Self Protection Unit in kwaXemba.  After that period, in 1992, I went to work at the Pietermaritzburg ANC office, protecting Chief Mlaba.

MR WILLS: Where is your home?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: My home is at Cato Ridge, at kwaXemba.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Mlaba, if you could just sit a little bit away from the microphone, because you are causing some interference.  That is fine, just speak normally again, just repeat your answer please.

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I was trained in 1992 at Umtata in the Transkei.  On my return, I was deployed to the ANC office in Pietermaritzburg as a bodyguard and protecting Chief Mlaba at the time.
	At that time I was staying at (indistinct) at kwaXemba.

MR WILLS: Who organised for you to do this training in the Transkei, at Umtata?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: The Major in the SADF, Mr Skosana.  Mr Ntelas Skosana.

MR WILLS: Can you give the Committee the names of persons who accompanied you for this training?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: The person that was with me was Mr Sizwe Zuma.  The second was Filo Mandla Mtethwa and the third one was Maniza Mlaba.

MR WILLS: This person that you have mentioned Filo Mandla Mtethwa, was he originally an accused with you in respect of the incident for which you now apply for amnesty?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes, he was.

MR WILLS: And he was with you at the time when you killed the deceased in this matter, that is Nhlamvu Mkhize and Sbusiso Mlaba?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee why you killed - sorry I with draw that, before we start, you made a statement, an amnesty application to the Amnesty Committee on the prescribed form whilst you were in prison in May 1997, do you recall that?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.

MR WILLS: And do you confirm the contents of that statement?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Yes.

MR WILLS: In that statement you have indicated that you shot Nhlamvu Mkhize and your fellow SDU member, shot the second deceased person, Sbusiso Mlaba.  Do you confirm that?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee why you killed this person Nhlamvu Mkhize?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: I killed Nhlamvu Mkhize because he was employed as an informer by the Special Branch at Hammersdale.

MR WILLS: How did you know that that was the case?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: A certain man came to me to give me assistance.  This person was a policeman at Webber.  The name was Wiseman Twana Mapanga.
	He told me that there is a photograph, my photograph at the Webber police station and that the SB and the SADF were after me, because I had been trained in the Transkei.
	When I asked him how he knew about this, he said he was working with this informer.  Nhlamvu would come to the area to actually survey ANC members and he will actually report, occasionally, regularly on who - what people were doing and what sort of weapons they had.
	I was the person who was actually being sought after because I was actually older than the rest of the boys with whom I had been trained.

MR WILLS: Is it the effect of your evidence that this person informed the Special Branch about your operations?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: That is correct.  On one day, when Wiseman informed me that I should actually be careful of this person because he normally arrives at the police station to report, on one day I did not go to the ANC office and I saw this man going into the police station, and I was satisfied that yes, that is where he worked.
	In that way I was also not free, I was harassed by the police and the soldiers.  I would have to stay away from home, and sleep away from home.  If Nhlamvu had been to my area, I would not be able to rest.  Even my family knew about this, that I had a problem.  The SADF were after me and the police as well because of this training that I had received.
	The SADF and the police were actually enemies to the people who had been trained by the ANC.

MR WILLS: Was your house ever searched, your residence in kwaXemba, was it ever searched by the police?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Firstly they went to my girlfriend.  They called themselves the 121 Battalion from (indistinct), and they requested to search the house and they did so.
	When they didn't find anything, there was a small baby, my baby.  They actually said that they would kill me, but they would spare me just for the sake of the baby.
	I fled.  On one day some other soldiers came, I think it was 132 Battalion, they knocked on my door and I opened the door.  I had informed my family that if some people come, like the SADF, I will actually increase the volume of the radio and I did this on this occasion.
	My family put on the alert, they  searched the house.  There was a case of beer and one bottle of liquor in the house, which I gave to the soldiers.  They left in the morning in the Hippo.  I was trying to hold them back, so that everybody will see them when they leave in the morning.

MR WILLS: You obviously took a decision to kill the deceased in this matter.  Did you report this to anybody or did you seek the authority for this operation from anybody?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: There was an MK Commander whose name is Linda Godffrey Xaba.  I decided to report this matter to him, telling him about my problem.

MR WILLS: And was this before or after you killed the deceased?

MZAMO THABANI MLABA: Before I killed him, I went to report to the Commander, the MK Commander.

MR WILLS: What did Xaba have to tell you?