Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MZWANDILE GUSHU: When I arrived in front of John's shop I saw Jwi and a person that I couldn't identify.  I decided to get into the shop and see if John was inside.  When I realised that John was not inside I went back to the spot where I was to get the firearm, the AK47.  I came back and when I came back he was still standing in front of John's shop.  I told myself that there's nothing else that he was there for.  The instruction to shoot him was already given to me.  I just passed a little bit, I started shooting.  I was pointing directly at him because my aim was to kill him.  Though I'm not sure if it was Happy Mhlongo who was with him there, he was also shot, but it was not my aim to shoot at him, but it happened that he got shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Gushu, you say you shot at Zwane in the operation of a political decision, correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And in executing that political instruction and operation these other three got injured?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: In executing that political instruction as a soldier, you shot at Zwane and in doing so these other three were injured?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, this is what I'm trying to explain.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore they were injured in the exercise of a political operation, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Excuse me, Chairperson, I hear two people in my ear.  I hear two voices.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, hopefully I'm alone now.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: In the execution of your instruction to kill Zwane which was a political issue, these other three were injured, correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you then correctly that they were injured in the exercise of your political commitment?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that's correct, but I wanted to explain this to the Committee so that you can understand how did these people got injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, is the way I put it to you the way they got injured?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It's exactly how it happened, but now you will need more information as to how did it happen.  As a person who was doing this, I am able to explain it in details so that you can know exactly how did they got injured.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR BLACK: Okay thanks, Mr Gushu.  I think you've canvassed most of the instances surrounding Mr Zwane.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, but I have not finished.  I would like to explain more.  As it was in the evening, these two people were standing together.  I did not know whether Happy Mhlongo was one of the Black Cats.  I had intended to shoot Jwi.  I did not know whether the two of them were Black Cats.  The one got shot as I was aiming to shoot Jwi.  He ran into a corner house.  He went to the back of the house where Sibusiso Nkosi and Eric Nkosi were inside the shack.  It was in the evening, therefore it was difficult to know or be aware that there were people inside the shack or not.  I was not shooting at people inside the shack.  This is how Eric Nkosi and Sibusiso Tito Nkosi got injured, like Happy Mhlongo.

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Gushu.  Should we move on now to page thirty five (35).  You'll see at the top of page thirty five (35) there's reference to the death of Advice Gwala.  Do you see that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I see that.

MR BLACK: Could you also tell the Committee why he was shot?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He was a leader of Inkatha in Secunda.  He was also a leader of the Black Chain that were attacking people in Secunda at Mbalendle Township.  Therefore there were people that were found that had died, killed by the Black Chain.  However, the police did not do anything about that.  ANC members were dying.  At that time I could never allow ANC members or the Communist Party to die just like that.  I was trained to protect them.  (APPLAUSE BY AUDIENCE)

MR BLACK: You also refer to the fact that he was an organiser for the - sorry, I seem to be having difficulty with this.  That he was an organiser of United Workers Union of South Africa.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: That's affiliated or enjoys the support of the IFP.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR BLACK: Ja.  Now, you have mentioned him before and you also mentioned the Black Chain gang.  Now, the Black Chain gang is not exactly the same as the Black Cats, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is correct, but they do the same work.

MR BLACK: Yes.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Or they did the same work.

MR BLACK: When you say that, to which political organisation were they affiliated or did they receive support from?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Inkatha.

MR BLACK: Now, carrying out this mission did you feel that you were acting within the mandate which had been given to you by your MK commander?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is correct.

MR BLACK: You have heard the evidence of Mr Mndebele.  You were present.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I was here.

MR BLACK: You also heard him refer to a mandate generally which was given to you, which appears in writing on page thirteen (13) of the record, but to save time, he says there
"There was an implied instruction to Gushu more or less.  One, that he was to recruit assistance from SDUs in the local community and he was to obtain arms and ammunition and to finance these operations from whichever source possible."

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I think at this stage I need to object to this question.  This is a leading question.  It's not following any tool that was prepared at some stage, but this is a leading question.  We've let this applicant to carry on to enable this Committee to make up some time, but this is leading questions.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, that is a leading question.

MR BLACK: No, I appreciate it's leading.  I could just simply say to him, have you heard ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Black, will you then rephrase it then please.

MR BLACK: I will do so, Mr Chairman.  You heard the evidence of Mr John Mndebele when he gave evidence before the Committee?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR BLACK: Yes.  You also heard that the Committee had met and that they had agreed to give you a mandate to bring stability to that area?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR BLACK: And you heard him describe what the mandate was?  Do you remember how he described it?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now, when carrying out the - do you agree with that mandate?  Do you agree with his evidence, let me put it that way, that that was in fact the mandate which was given?

CHAIRPERSON: How can he answer that, Mr Black?  He wasn't present.

MR BLACK: No, as I say, did he agree that that was the mandate that was given to him then.

MS BOSMAN: Shouldn't you rather ask the witness to explain how he understood the mandate, Mr Black?

MR BLACK: You say you received orders from Mr Mkhwanazi?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR BLACK: Now, were you given any mandate by Mr Mkhwanazi?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Now, how did ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say to you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He said that I should make sure that at Ermelo, Piet Retief and Secunda the Inkatha stops killing the Communist Party members and the ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He also said that I should train a self-defence unit that would help fight the Inkatha.

MR BLACK: How were you to get any arms and ammunition in order to carry out this mission?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is a very painful issue because we did not have an ANC base within South Africa.  Therefore we tried to get arms in our own way.  The police and the soldiers of the National Party would take our firearms saying that we were banned.  I did not know who put them in place themselves.  (APPLAUSE BY AUDIENCE)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, listen to the question.  How were you going to put that mandate into operation?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I had to train soldiers so that we fight together.