Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

WALTER SMILES: The security guard was coming out as I threw the hand grenade and I hit him in the face. If the security had not come out then he would have been inside and I wouldn't have worried what happened at the building.

PROF DE KOKER: Why would you not have worried what happened?

WALTER SMILES: My instruction was that when the hand grenade was in, it was in.

PROF DE KOKER: And what about the people inside the building?

WALTER SMILES: But I didn't see any people inside the building.

PROF DE KOKER: But the security guard was inside the building when you threw the hand grenade.  Lucky for the security guard he was coming out and the hand grenade hit him, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: But how could I see that the security guard was going to come out - I didn't know the security guard was going to come out?

PROF DE KOKER: And if he didn't come out, he would have been inside?  And your instruction was to see that nobody got hurt and you also had to make sure that the security guard didn't get hurt.

WALTER SMILES: I had to see that the marchers were returning, then I had to throw the grenade.

PROF DE KOKER: Was the instruction that none of the marchers would get hurt or was your instruction that no-one, no-one at all whether they were marchers or not, would get hurt?

PROF DE KOKER: Who was not supposed to get hurt, no-one or not one of the marchers?

WALTER SMILES: Not one of our people, not one of the marchers had to get hurt.

PROF DE KOKER: It didn't matter to you that there were other people who were going to get hurt, that's why you threw the hand grenade into the building and that's why you didn't look whether there were people inside the building?

WALTER SMILES: I'm not sure whether you understand me Mr de Koker, but I'm explaining this thing over and over and I'm not going to explain it again.  The intention was that the hand grenade had to go inside the building and the signal was that the marchers were returning - at that stage I threw the hand grenade and then the security came out, I hit him in the face and that's how all the people got hurt.

PROF DE KOKER: And if he hadn't come out, none of the marchers would have got hurt and it would have been inside and other people - the 10 or 15 people inside, would have been hurt or killed if you had followed your instructions?

WALTER SMILES: I didn't know whether there were any people inside.

PROF DE KOKER: You didn't need to know because it was not your instruction to look after them.

WALTER SMILES: Just explain to me again please.

PROF DE KOKER: Your instruction was to see that none of the marchers got hurt, your instruction was not see that any other persons - whoever they may be inside the building, did not get hurt.  You threw the hand grenade inside the building and you didn't mind who got hurt?

WALTER SMILES: I just want to think about this very clearly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Professor de Koker, hasn't he already conceded to that?  I think you can't get anymore than what he has said.

PROF DE KOKER: In the light of that indication, I will then leave this line of questioning and we can continue to a next aspect.
	You said that you threw the hand grenade in such a manner that nobody could detect you, now it still remains unclear where you stood when you threw the hand grenade.  You said you stood back, I would like you to explain this to us.  Let's say this bench is the entrance of Trust Bank and let us say - to inform the Committee perhaps just the following note, the building faces the same direction as this exact bench here or this table here, so we are geographically situated as the Trust Bank building - corresponding to the Trust Bank building and the micro tower is on the right there where the door is, can you please indicate to us where did you stand?

WALTER SMILES: There was a little tree, that's where I stood.

PROF DE KOKER: Well, let's say this is the entrance - this before us here, please indicate by hand where was that little tree that you're referring to.

WALTER SMILES: It was this side, as the Trust Bank stands, it was this side.

PROF DE KOKER: So, if we say the Trust Bank - you're now standing in front of the Trust Bank and this is the entrance, you're standing there in the middle of the street, can you show us here on the stage approximately where you stood if this was the entrance?  (transcriber's own translation)

ADV DE JAGER: He did indicate that he stood at a tree left of the entrance.

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: For the record, that is how I understood it.

PROF DE KOKER: I'm just trying to get clarity.
	Maybe Mr Smiles, you can indicate on this table where did you stand in terms of the entrance - just to help us clarify it physically?

WALTER SMILES: It's very complicated, maybe we should go to the venue itself, then it can be easier.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Professor de Koker, can you probably assist Mr Smiles by referring to the sketch plan which is annexed to his application, if you think that's going to be of any assistance?

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you very much for that indication Commission Khampepe, on page 24 of the first bundle, there is a sketch plan of the building.
	If you look very carefully at this sketch, can you perhaps - that is page 24 of the first bundle, if you look at this, could you on this sketch indicate more or less where you were standing?

WALTER SMILES: It was not too far away from the sidewalk, it was a tree in a pot - a plant holder.

PROF DE KOKER: When I look at this tree, this is the inside of the building.  If inside the building underneath that D ...[intervention]

MR TSHOLANKU: Professor de Koker sorry, if you could be kind enough to give us the references to these points as to what A refers to, I think it would make it much easier.  I'm trying to get the reference points, I can't find them in my document.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's on page 18, Mr Tsholanku.  But I thought Mr Smiles had referred to a sidewalk?

PROF DE KOKER: That might be my misunderstanding or my bad eyesight then, Commission Khampepe.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think you simply saw something which looked like a tree in the square where D is, and settled.

PROF DE KOKER: That is correct.  Could we perhaps just for clarification for everyone involved, ask Advocate Tsholanku if it's possible for your client just to indicate in pen or pencil just by way of a cross where he's standing - we could perhaps circulate that quickly and we could have that indication.

MR TSHOLANKU: Can we safely say that B and A is the front of the building - in page 18, reference is made to pictures and it makes it rather difficult because then the references don't say what A is on the sketch plan.

PROF DE KOKER: Advocate Tsholanku, as far as I understand it and from my own recollection you're quite correct, B and A refers to the front of the building.  The line between B and A would be the glass front and in-between would be the sliding door where the hand grenade should have entered to point D then as I understand, which is part of the foyer opening up into a broader foyer.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you, Professor de Koker.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tsholanku, you're now engaged in a dialogue with your client and we are puzzled, what is happening?

MR TSHOLANKU: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I was explaining to him that point A and point B is the front of the building and in relation to the front of the building he must then make a cross as to where approximately or exactly he was standing.  He has already made a cross, I'll circulate my copy of the document to give an indication to the Committee and everybody where he was standing exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Which page are you referring to?

MR TSHOLANKU: Page 24.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was he standing?

MR TSHOLANKU: The point where he has made a cross, he says approximately in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you standing on the pavement?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, Mr Chairman.