Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: ront, the Conservative Party and various rightwing organisations.
Now on that basis, as I understand it, General Viljoen says he planned sedition. In the first months of 1994 he planned a revolution of his own. Why? In his case, and people would have been killed in that, if they implemented that. Why in his case, he gave as his motivation that this self-determination was being given away. 
Many others were motivated in what they did by the fact that the ANC, the revolutionary movements, had support of a world communist power which had expansionist goals in South Africa, which had surrogate forces in Angola. A net was spanning across the whole of Southern Africa. So it's not sort of McCarthyite paranoia. It was a fact that there was this strategy that directly or indirectly this world power would establish here in South Africa and in Southern Africa, a communist foothold and communist dominated government.
Others were motivated by the fact that they were fighting against forces which wanted to overthrow the state, which threatened the property and the life of ordinary citizens which were acting illegally. Now what then exacerbated it, and I'm not saying that is justification, if you ask me why, if we look just to the motive behind the motive, why would good church-going people suddenly do a thing like that? 
Then one would have to analyse the nature of the conflict. They were fighting against revolutionary forces applying no rules whatsoever, planting bombs, doing the things they did, killing policemen just because they were policemen. I believe that was admitted yesterday in evidence by a senior minister of the ANC. They were open targets, so under such circumstances they just could not succeed. That I suppose is how some of their minds worked. 
And this war then became an ugly war. It isn't a conventional war. In a conventional war you shoot and you bomb and you come with the airplanes and you send in the cannons. This is an ugly war, an underground war where the rules become blurred and where individuals, individual situations get into situations where, whether it's emotional stress, whether it's hatred, whether it's whatever, comes to the fore and makes people do things. 
If we look at the Vietnam war, and analyse some of the atrocities which were committed by the American forces, why? The same question can be asked. And if you analyse all these wars across a broad spectrum, then it is an element which comes to the for from both sides. You've been listening for two days to admissions of the ANC in that regard. They had to admit that it was also in some instances their official policy. I think it would have pleased everybody if I said it was our official policy but I can't speak an untruth to satisfy the call for blood which there is. I can only speak the truth as I know it and the truth is, it wasn't such a policy, I never participated in such a policy, I was never involved in it, and I was never aware of such a policy.

MR GOOSEN: Would you consider that the senior members of the police and military, the sort of ranks and positions to which we've referred, that they may have regarded that the politicians, if you like, would have supported them in their efforts to conduct the ugly war that you refer to?

MR DE KLERK: I have definitely never created such an impression with anybody, especially when I was President and bore the final responsibility. I can't speak for such police officers. It's possible I think. I think some of them felt that it's actually been said to me by police officers in the past months and year or so, that they felt that they had to undertake initiative in that regard, and that they, on the rule to no basis felt that the best way to do so was to take their own initiatives and not to clear it, but that the broad policy was, go out and act firmly.
Now that is where the concept of reasonable interpretation comes.

MR GOOSEN: Alright I want to explore that and I certainly want to come to the issue of reasonable interpretation in due course. 
The State Security Council at a meeting in

<UNKNOWN>: ebruary 1979, approved a set of guidelines for the conducting of operations in foreign countries. Those guidelines divided envisaged actions into different categories, planned operations, cross-border operations, hot pursuit, reconnaissance actions, clandestine operations. In respect of reconnaissance and clandestine operations, the document says that such actions would be difficult to justify in terms of international law, and in respect of clandestine operations the document indicates that the scope of these type of top secret operations are unlimited and the rules of international law make no provision for them. 
Now the State Security council approved authorising bodies if you like, levels of authorisation for different categories. In respect of planned operations by the State Security Council. In respect of cross border operations, the head of the South African Defence

<UNKNOWN>: orce. Reconnaissance actions, the head of the South African Defence

<UNKNOWN>: orce. In respect of clandestine actions the State Security Council approved the following
"As a result of the far reaching implications that can flow from these types of operations, they can only be authorised at the highest level and the planning and execution must take place on a need to know basis".
Now you were not present at that meeting?

MR DE KLERK: I wasn't on the State Security Council then.

MR GOOSEN: Absolutely, according to our records, the first State Security Council meeting which you attended was only on the 27th of August of 1979.
However, having served for a very long time subsequent to that on the State Security Council, are you able to give and indication to the Commission as to what would be meant by the "highest level", or "authorisation at the highest level"?

MR DE KLERK: Well let me firstly say I think what you've read out indicates that there were rules, there were parameters and there were controls installed. 
Secondly, just on the basis of logical deduction and the general experience that you refer to, which I have, you must realise that the main item of clandestine operations would in all probability have referred to by-passing of sanctions, because sanctions were closing in at that stage and in the process of by-passing sanctions, laws of other countries were broken. We smuggled, we bought oil from oil smugglers who broke the sanctions and therefore it was extremely important, in order to ensure that those who assisted in the by-passing of sanctions in order to, what was the goal to ensure the economic survival of South Africa, would be properly protected and I would say that that was the main focus of that part. 
The highest level, I think one would, depending upon the specific decision which needs to be taken, one would define it differently. Once again I think it would be generalised, maybe from the head of government, yes we will break oil sanctions.

<UNKNOWN>: rom the Minister, a policy framework, something like that.

<UNKNOWN>: rom the Director General, more specific filling in of such a policy framework which was agreed to. 
So it will depend on the weight of the decision, how you would under such circumstances define the highest level, it wouldn't in all cases, to my mind, necessarily mean the President or whatever.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you. Now the celebrated, if you like, but the Operation Marion documents which were made public in the trial and the State Security Council meeting of the 3rd of