Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

JOSIAS SEEMISE: I did not act alone, I was in the company of Israel Hlongwane.  Mr Hlongwane informed me that Mr Mxobogazi had told him that this family was aligned to the ANC, therefore they had to be attacked.  Hlongwane who had the firearm, gave it to me and ordered me to enter into the house and shoot at people in there.  I then proceeded to do so and I found some person who was buying something from the shop and two persons who were serving him.  I fired two or three shots and thereafter fled from the scene.

MR LUBBE: And this incident you also carried out on the instructions of Mr Hlongwane.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: Turning to charges 13 and 14, it relates to the gun you used, as well as the ammunition that was used in the incident of charges 11 and 12, is that correct?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: And you don't seek amnesty on charge 15.  That would be the escape from custody, you're not applying for amnesty in that regard.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: No, I do not seek amnesty for that.

MR LUBBE: Mr Chairperson, I'm moving on to page 4 of Exhibit A, paragraph 6.1, which deals with:  The Attack On Certain UDF Members at iZikumplazi.
	Mr Seemise, will you kindly turn to pages 107 and 108 of the bundle.  According to the evidence adduced in this instance by Mr Hlongwane in his amnesty application, this incident pertains to a - or rather, refers to an incident where, according to him, he received instructions from one, Noah, to attack or shoot a particular shop.  You had the opportunity of reading the record or these portions of the record this morning, do you confirm the evidence of Mr Hlongwane in this regard and more in particular the role you played in this instance?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do.

MR LUBBE: Now the role in this specific instance was simply to point out to Mr Hlongwane where the shop was situated which he had to attack, is that correct?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: I want to refer you to page 196 of the bundle, towards the bottom where Mr Hlongwane testifies about your involvement.  He says
"When he arrived in Ermelo, no-one took him to stay with me."
that is now you.
"He was staying with me.  His work was to accompany me when I go around doing the work."
Do you see that?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do.

MR LUBBE: Yes, and your job was primarily to assist Mr Hlongwane in locating these various targets that he had to hit on the instructions of Noah.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

MR LUBBE: Paragraph 6.2 of your affidavit deals with the killing of a Mrs Zini Shongwe.  It is contained on pages 108 to 112.  Now previously you indicated to the Honourable Committee that you also seek amnesty for the death of Mr Shongwe's mother.  Is this in fact the mother of Mr Shongwe, the person that is referred to in charge 1 of the charge sheet?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Please repeat the question.

MR LUBBE: You will see that the person referred to in this instance, specifically on page 108, approximately 10 lines from the top, and if you turn the page around, on page 110, where Mr Wills proceeds, approximately in the middle of the page.  This person is referred to as Bobolina's mother, being Mrs Zini Shongwe.  The question is, Bobolina, is that the person referred to in the first charge, the first count, on which you pleaded guilty where you conspired to murder this person?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: It is the same person.

MR LUBBE: Mr Chairman with respect, you will see that the particulars of this incident coincides exactly with what my client testified on counts 1 to 8, as on pages 110 and 111.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LUBBE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	I'm proceeding to paragraph 6.3, page 5 of Exhibit A: The Death of Two Unknown School children from Tembisa School.  
	Please have a look, Mr Seemise, at pages 113 to 115.	 This incident deals with the death of two children, school children, who were killed according to Mr Hlongwane, on the instructions of Noah.  Now towards the end of page 113, I'll pick it up for you, Hlongwane says:
"At the time the school children from Tembisa refused to accept the Black Cats' children as school kids, and therefore we had a campaign with China (being yourself) to kill the children and the school children from Tembisa school, and we got instructions from Noah to do that.  And we meet some of the young boys and China explained that these were from the Tembisa school."
It carries on, and then towards the bottom of page 114, Mr Hlongwane testifies that you, that is himself and you, met two young boys:
"When we met them, China said that these boys were from the Tembisa school."
...(indistinct) referring to them and then eventually he shot them, killed both and doesn't know what their names are.  Do you recall this incident?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do.

MR LUBBE: And the role that you played in this, is it correctly reflected in the evidence of Mr Hlongwane?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, it is.

MR LUBBE: And the instructions also came from the person called Noah, is that correct?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That's correct.

ADV SANDI: I don't know, maybe you're going to proceed to deal with some other incident.
	Can you tell us exactly what happened in this incident?
MR SEEMISE
"The children from Tembisa school did not allow the children from the Black Cats to attend school.  Each time they went to school they would chase them away.  There was one person from the Black Cats, Bongani Kaba, who pointed out to me the children who had been responsible for chasing the Black Cats' kids from school.  Noah then instructed Israel Hlongwane to go shoot those children.
		It then happened that on a particular day the school children were chased away.  That was after the instruction had been issued.  When these children arrived from school and informed us that they had been chased away, we then proceeded towards the school.  On our way there we met two of them, that was two of the persons whom Bongani Kaba had pointed out to me.  I could not see them property, I only recognised them when they were very close to us.  
		I then informed Hlongwane that these are some of the people who were responsible for chasing the Black Cats' children from school.  I informed him that I would go nearer them and if I was certain that it was indeed the two, I would raise my hand to indicate to him that he should shoot them.  So I did go forward, and as I came nearer to them I realised that they were indeed the two persons and I then raised up my hand to indicate to him that it was the correct people and Hlongwane then proceeded to shoot them."

MR LUBBE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Seemise, without knowing what political sentiments these children maybe held, did you regard any person opposing the Black Cats, as being an enemy of the Black Cats?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: That is correct.

MR LUBBE: Mr Chairperson, I'm moving to paragraph 6.4 of the exhibit:  The Attack on Three ANC Scholars.  Which is to be found on pages 120, 121 and 122.
	Mr Hlongwane testifies here that he failed to get the leaders of his opponents, if you read it in context, and he told Noah that and that Noah said that any of the ANC:
"And since China knew them very well, the youth, he's going to show me all the youths and anyone whom we ever meet on our way we should shoot them, and unfortunately we met these young boys from night-school.  China was in front, I was with China and most of the operation China will always be in front of me so that he could recognise the people before me.  And China on that particular day, confirmed that these were members of the ANC, and then I took my firearm and shot them after China confirmed that they were ANC members.  That's how they were killed.  There were three of them killed."
He carries on to say:
"It was also on the instruction of Noah."
towards to top of page 121.  Do you recall this incident?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do.