Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR WILLS: : Now why would you, on what authority would you listen to Mr Mdunda.   Why would you listen to Gerry Mdunda.   Who told you to listen to Gerry Mdunda.   Why would you know that if he came, you were to listen to him?

MR HLONGWANE: : He was a member of the hit-squad and I knew fully well that he must have been instructed by MZ Khumalo.  There is only one person who knew where he was in the bush, and that would be MZ Khumalo.   He is the only person who could have sent him.   I used to stay in a bush and nobody would have known where I was, unless a person who was instructed by MZ Khumalo;  and people wanted to know what we were doing there and we indicated that we intended to build houses and, therefore, I knew that Gerry Mdunda must have been sent by MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS: : Had you had any knowledge of Gerry Mdunda prior to him coming to see you in the bush?

MR HLONGWANE: : I knew him very well.

MR WILLS: : Tell us how you knew him.

MR HLONGWANE: : I knew that, for example, if a person was wanted, a person had to die.   Gerry wouldn't mind spending three days sleeping in the car.   He wouldn't mind three days sleeping in the car if he wanted to kill someone, and I knew that he was also a well known person, especially at Ulundi.   He was an Inkatha hitman.

MR WILLS: : When did you first meet Mdunda?   Can you recall?

MR HLONGWANE: : At Ulundi, very long ago.   I cannot remember what year it was.   That was at a conference.

MR WILLS: : And how did you know - how did you get personal knowledge that he was involved in these hit-squads?

MR HLONGWANE: : I was like a son to MZ Khumalo.  We would discuss everything.   I was actually his son and he would tell me that he had his boys, and I knew things about ...(indistinct) and things that were happening at some places.

MR WILLS: : So are you inferring that Mr MZ Khumalo told you about Gerry Mdunda?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes he did.

MR WILLS: : Okay, I want you to relate the incident where you tried to take out the - was it the Captain Msinga, at the Silumbele Police Station?   Can you tell the Committee about this attempt?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes I can.   Gerry came to the tent.   He was driving Chief Motaba's Cressida, blueish in colour.   On arrival, he took me.   We then went.   I cannot remember when we went to Mbanza first and when we got there.   If I am not mistaken, we went to Mbanza and then to the station.   I had an AK-47 and Gerry was going to walk into the office and check as to whether he was there, and if he was in the office, I would walk into the Police Station and shoot him there;  and when Gerry came back and told me that he did not find him and that's how he managed not to be - that's how we did not manage to get hold of him.

MR WILLS: : But didn't you think that if you walked into a Police Station and shot someone in the Police Station, you'd be arrested?  I mean surely that's a very silly place to conduct an assassination.

MR HLONGWANE: : At that time, all the police in the Kwa Zulu Police Force were our comrades.   I would not be arrested.   I would hit him at a Police Station in Kwa Zulu, and I therefore would not be arrested.

MR WILLS: : Do you know who was in charge of that Police Station?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes I know.   It was Major Owen Nzama.

MR WILLS: : And do you know anything about this person, Major Nzama, what his role was in these operations, if he had any?

MR HLONGWANE: : He was an Inkatha, that I know, and he also used to work with people like Victor of the hit-squad at Mandini;   and I therefore know that he was an Inkatha member, even though I did not work with him personally.  But I know that he was working for Inkatha, for a very long time.

MR WILLS: : Who is this Victor you refer to?

MR HLONGWANE: : Victor is a police who was trained by the 200 men, the Caprivians.

MR WILLS: : And where was this Victor stationed?

MR HLONGWANE: : He was stationed at Mandini.   That is where he was killing people.

MR WILLS: : Was he a member of the Kwa Zulu Police Station at Silumbele?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: : And just for the clarification of the Committee, Silumbele is a township which is just outside of Mandini.   Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: : It is a township right inside Mandini.

MR WILLS: : Yes, thank you.   I just want to - you say that you and Gerry had a meeting with Nkosi Motaba, Shakes Mhlonga.   Who was Shakes Mhlonga?

MR HLONGWANE: : Shakes Mhlonga was in charge of Inkatha at Mandini.

MR WILLS: : And what did you discuss at this meeting?

MR HLONGWANE: : We were discussing killing people.

MR WILLS: : So, did these people know what you intended to do later, i.e. with reference to the attempt on Captain Msinga?

MR HLONGWANE: : They knew very well.   Everybody knew.

MR WILLS: : Okay, I want to now turn to the incident that starts at your paragraph 148 page 187 of the record, and it concerns the murder of an ANC member, Gindinga.   Do you recall - okay, can you just tell the members of the public and the Committee what happened there?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes I can explain.   Gindinga, I was told -we were told that Gindinga was troublesome at school and therefore, but I did not know which school exactly, whether Odumo or another one.    There was a house at Mandini where it was alleged, or where - that is number 45, that is where you'd find this ANC comrades.  What Gindinga did was that he would take these boys, in the absence of his mother, and he would eat every food, all the food with the boys and I was just told I had to go and kill him.

MR WILLS: : Who told you this?

MR HLONGWANE: : It was Shakes, Gadebi, because they said Gindinga's mother - I know Gindinga's mother - she is a famous IFP leader.   I am saying here that Gindinga - I was instructed to kill him and the instruction came from Shakes and Gadebi, saying that it was his mother who instructed that he be killed.   I know Gindinga's mother and she knows me too.

MR WILLS: : I see ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please keep quiet.

MR WILLS: : So it's apparent from your evidence and this is an important aspect for the - which must be cleared up before the Committee, that you obviously conducted many operations and that from your evidence, you've got - you seem to have received instructions from a broad range of people.   Now for example, I just want you to tell us who were the types of people that had the authority to give you instructions to conduct these operations.   In what positions did they occupy?

MR HLONGWANE: : It was people like Councillors, Mayors, prominent members of Inkatha, Amakosi.

MR WILLS: : Now why did you listen to these people?

MR HLONGWANE: : For the reason that I also wanted my political party to succeed.   We thought that at one point or one day, the Inkatha Freedom Party will become the Government of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Hlongwane, are you saying that in this case you were told by Gadebi and Shakes Mhlonga to kill because the victim's mother had asked that her own son be killed, because he was eating all the food together with young ANC boys?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is correct, but I would like to explain this further.   I don't know if I can continue explaining this issue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.