Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR NGUBANE: I see.  The interpretation I got - I'm listening to the English interpretation, is that you were told as you were moving to the park, is that your evidence?

I D BOSCH: That's why I say I'm not sure if, whilst we were going to the park or whether it was in the park or wherever, I do not know when they told me.  I know that they told me he was an ANC member but I don't know when they told me this.

MR NGUBANE: And when he arrived in the park being handcuffed, what impression did you gain of him?

I D BOSCH: That they've just arrested an ANC member and they've brought him in now.

MR NGUBANE: So you must have known before he could come to the park, that he was an ANC man?

I D BOSCH: Possibly, Sir.

MR NGUBANE: And when he arrived in the park, did you know that he was going to be killed?

I D BOSCH: That's where my problem lies, I cannot remember where I heard that he will be killed, whether it was in the park, on the way to the park, wherever.  I cannot remember.  If I could I will tell you but I can't remember when I was told this.

MR NGUBANE: Were you killing an ANC man for the first time on that day?

I D BOSCH: Just repeat the question please, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Was it the first time that you were involved in the killing of an ANC man?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson, in these type of circumstances, similar circumstances, yes.

MR NGUBANE: If you say similar circumstances, you mean an innocent man who has been detained and was going to be killed unarmed, is that what you mean?

I D BOSCH: That is correct, Chairperson.  It was the first I got involved in something like this, where a person was taken and simply shot.

MR NGUBANE: And did you do that again thereafter?

I D BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: That must have been a cultural shock to you, is that correct?

I D BOSCH: It was not only a cultural shock but spiritual as well.

MR NGUBANE: So that must have left an everlasting impression in your mind?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, my whole police career since I joined the Security Force, left scars in my life.

MR NGUBANE: But this particular incident, can you equate it to any other experience that you have every had?

I D BOSCH: No, Sir.

MR NGUBANE: So my difficulty is, this thing is happening to yourself, it's causing you some cultural shock of unequalled enormity and you are vague about the details.  It surprises me why you can't remember the details of this particular incident which was outstanding in your life.

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, this incident and the other incidents I did not afterwards go and talk to people about this and discuss it with them.  I wanted to forget it, I wanted to get it our of my system, it just had to get out.

MR NGUBANE: And when did you decide to apply for amnesty?

I D BOSCH: In November 1996.  Ja, they received it in 96/12/12.

MR NGUBANE: I'm not asking about the date when you submitted your amnesty application, I'm just interested in the date when you had this cleansing of the soul and decided to come clean on the matter, when did that happen to you?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, when they said we could apply for amnesty and we had to make everything public.  I cannot recall what the date was, it was said when we were all told to apply for amnesty.

MR NGUBANE: And you were also told that if you applied for amnesty you would be forgiven, you won't be prosecuted, is that right?

I D BOSCH: Chairman, I know that if you apply for amnesty you have to make a full disclosure and I am not trying to hide anything otherwise I would not be sitting here.  I just want to get it our of my life.

MR NGUBANE: Well don't anticipate my questions, I have not at any stage indicated to you that you are hiding anything, why do you jump to that?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm just saying that I know there are certain requirements that I have to comply with to apply for amnesty, so I cannot come and sit here and talk nonsense and think that I should receive amnesty just for sitting here.  I can tell you what happened as I recall it from 12 years back.

MR NGUBANE: Right, but at the time you decided to apply for amnesty it was about 10 years back, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: 2 years.

MR NGUBANE: In 1996, Sir.  I stand corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: Not 10 or twelve, 2 years.  Oh, 10 years after the incident?

MR NGUBANE: Yes, yes.  So it was - the events must have been fresher than they are at the moment, is that correct?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I can now recall more than I could two years ago when I handed in this application, because I did not consult or talk with anyone about the incident or phone and say: "What happened that day", I did it on my own and I wanted to get it over with, as I could remember it.

MR NGUBANE: Now reference has been made to a submission by van der Merwe - I suppose it's bundle 2 that has been referred to now and again, do you also ...(intervention)

MR ROUSSOUW: Sorry, Mr Chairman, we were not placed in possession of that bundle so I think questions would be a little bit unfair, unless you can place it before the applicant.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, well I won't pursue that.

CHAIRPERSON: The large bundle 1, page 126, that's in the assassination of Ndwandwe, Ntseni, Ntjale, Ndlovu and Vilagazi.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, it's the problem the Committee anticipated, that reference is going to now be made to the General's submissions and Mr Roussouw it would seem was furnished with the bundles only peculiar to the Bhila application.  However we've made a copy available to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I have no doubt ...(no sound) to in a great many applications.

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Chairman, I've seen it before but I can't give the evidence.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Bosch, have you seen the submissions by Mr van der Merwe at any stage or were you apprised of the submissions of Mr van der Merwe at any stage?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, which van der Merwe is it, is it General van der Merwe?

CHAIRPERSON: The Commissioner.

I D BOSCH: The Commissioner.  I was at the hearing of Cosatu House and I heard what he had said.

MR NGUBANE: And do you align yourself with his submissions?

I D BOSCH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Before I go to the submissions by van der Merwe, do you agree with me that this amnesty application provided you with an opening for you to escape prosecution and you rushed to grab that opportunity?

I D BOSCH: No, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Are you applying for amnesty because you want to avoid prosecution or are you applying for amnesty because you want the world to know the truth of what happened?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I apply for amnesty to receive amnesty and so that everybody can know what happened in the past.

MR NGUBANE: So actually your motivation is to receive amnesty and not be prosecuted?

I D BOSCH: Partially yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now at page 177 van der Merwe says
"It's human nature to lie or exaggerate, especially it the person concerned ..."
That's paragraph 15.2.
"... especially if the person concerned believes that he or she can gain therefrom in some manner."
Do you agree with that statement?

I D BOSCH: I agree, Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: And does the statement apply to you?

I D BOSCH: Chairperson, I am here to speak the truth, I speak the truth as I remember it.  That is why I am here, otherwise I would not be here.

MR NGUBANE: No, what I mean is that as a human being does this statement apply to you, if you want some benefit are you prepared to lie and exaggerate, being a human being referred to by Mr van der Merwe?

MR MALAN: ...(inaudible) from, Mr Ngubane?  Can you just refer us to where you read from?

MR NGUBANE: It's page 177 of bundle 2, paragraph 15.2.

MR VISSER: If I may be permitted to interrupt, Mr Chairman, that is not the statement of General van der Merwe, that is the Foundation for Equality before the Law, by General Stadler.