Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: When exactly was it when you found Mr Coetzee?  Was it after the last discussion when you saw no other alternative and the three of you agreed and reached a consensus position?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: I am going to put it to you that it's in the highest degree improbable that Mr Coetzee's version is false, that there is no other way that he would have got this information except the way he says, that is about Mr Kondile and the vehicle and seeing Mr Kondile being guarded.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't know why you are saying this, but what I am telling you is that Mr Coetzee and I never saw this man together at Jeffrey's Bay and that Mr Kondile's car, as far as my knowledge went, was never at Jeffrey's Bay.

MR MOOSA: And I also put it to you that it's in the highest degree unlikely that another man, quite independently, Mr Danster, comes with the story of there's going to be another Biko incident.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I don't know where Mr Danster gets this information, I cannot comment on it.  He could have read this in the newspapers during the Harms Commission I don't know, I cannot comment.

MR MOOSA: I also put it to you that the vehicle was very likely in the area of Jeffrey's Bay and in the Eastern Cape and you left with Mr Kondile's vehicle, if your version  is correct.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: We did not leave Port Elizabeth with Mr Kondile's vehicle, we got the car at Bloemfontein.

MR MOOSA: Did all of you then go in one vehicle and Mr Raath, as I understand it, drove Mr Kondile's vehicle from Bloemfontein, is that right?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: Was it you that gave the order for this vehicle, Mr Kondile's vehicle to be left in the Barberton area?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think that Mr du Plessis and I decided together that we were going to leave the vehicle somewhere there.

MR MOOSA: And was there discussion from Port Elizabeth to Bloemfontein about how this operation was to be executed between the two of you or the three of you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, we did not talk about it much in the car.  We knew that we were going to take the man to Komatipoort where we would meet Mr Coetzee and the man would be eliminated.  That is basically what we had decided on. We did not talk much about it in the car.

MR MOOSA: In fact Mr Kondile was with you in the car and as far as he was concerned he was now working for you, not so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: Was he handcuffed in the vehicle?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes he was.

MR MOOSA: And once he was freed, at least theoretically, in Bloemfontein, was he still handcuffed or was he left ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: No I think - I don't think it's - my learned friend said Bloemfontein, it wasn't the evidence I think ....

MR MOOSA: Sorry.   Mr Kondile was freed, where was that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: At Jeffrey's Bay.

MR MOOSA: And what was the situation as far as Mr Kondile himself was concerned?  Was he made to feel that he was re-arrested or what explanation was given to him of what had happened?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I gave him no explanation, Mr du Plessis would have spoken to him, what he said to him I am not aware of, I am not sure.

MR MOOSA: Was there much discussion with Mr Kondile in this trip, from Port Elizabeth to Bloemfontein?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR MOOSA: And was it you who gave the instruction about disposing of the Kondile vehicle leaving it in the Barberton area?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I think that Mr du Plessis and I made that decision together, that the vehicle should be left there.

MR MOOSA: Any particular reason for Barberton?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, as I have already said before we said Barberton, it was somewhere outside Barberton, I cannot remember how far, the only reason was that it should be as close as possible to the border.

MR GCABASHE: Mr Moosa if I might just interrupt, could I ask Mr van Rensburg, you travelled in convoy from Bloemfontein to Barberton?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR GCABASHE: With Mr Raath driving Sizwe Kondile's car behind you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes that's correct.

MR GCABASHE: Was Sizwe Kondile not curious about where his car was being taken to?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No he was not.  He did not want to know.  We did not actually talk about it.

MR GCABASHE: And when you left the car by the side of the road at Barberton again he didn't ask any questions?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No he did not.

MR GCABASHE: But he was conscious of everything you were doing?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I can't - yes, I cannot remember, at certain stages during our journey he slept, I don't know whether he slept at that stage.  I do not know what Mr du Plessis had told him, I told him nothing.

MR GCABASHE: And when he was travelling with you in the car was he wearing a balaclava?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes he did.

MR GCABASHE: What was the purpose of that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think it was to protect his identity.

MR GCABASHE: You were travelling at night?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we travelled a while during the day as well.  I cannot  - for how long he had the balaclava on I can't remember.

MR GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MOOSA: This was a pretty long journey, how was it broken, did you stop somewhere to stay over?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the term "stay over", we just stopped alongside the road and rested and then continued on our journey and rested again.  But we did not overnight in an hotel or something to that effect, or at a guest house or wherever.

MR MOOSA: You didn't do any of the driving did you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, no, I cannot remember that I drove myself.

MR MOOSA: Can you remember where the stops were that you made? ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is this detail really relevant Mr Moosa?

MR MOOSA: Not quite Mr Chairman - there were some ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... the essentials.

MR MOOSA: Sure, there was some statement put to him that the stop was in Ermelo.

CHAIRPERSON: It didn't matter.  At the end of the day this is a matter that won't be of much concern, surely.

MR MOOSA: Ultimately, no.  Now coming to Komatipoort, any reason for that choice of area?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As I have already said the idea was that once we had eliminated this person that we would try to get the body to Mozambique.  In other words we had to choose a place as close as possible to the Mozambique border.  That is why we decided that specific place.

MR MOOSA: I am going to put it to you that it's most likely that in this situation that Archie Flemington would have been contacted before you do anything in his area.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No I would not contact him.  I asked Mr Coetzee to make the arrangements - as to where to meet him and where it was to be done, I left that to him.

MR MOOSA: The situation described by Mr Coetzee where he says that Mr Flemington and others were present during this incident, I take it you deny that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I deny that.

MR MOOSA: I put it to you that there would be no reason for Mr Coetzee to lie and make his situation actually worse than what it was from the time that he gave this story?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I cannot comment on that.  I do not know what Mr Coetzee's agenda is.  I do not know whether his memory fails him sometimes, I don't know.