Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

CHAIRPERSON: You can call your next witness, we will deal with his evidence-in-chief.

MR SAMUELS: I call Lucky Richard Molahlehi, application number 7098/97 and it's on page 111 ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molahlehi, what language would you like to use?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Lucky Molahlehi, that is my name.

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you like to use?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: I'd use South Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: As you wish.

INTERPRETER: We are requesting a minute, Sir.  The interpreters did not hear your question, Sir.

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairman, before I start, may I have leave to amend the list that I'd handed up to you this morning, recording the specific details about Lucky Molahleni's offences?  It has been listed as attempted murder only.  May I have leave to increase that list by adding possession of an AK47 and possession of an R4 rifle?  It all relates to the same incident at the same time.  May I proceed?

MR SAMUELS: Mr Molahleni, how old are you?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: 27 years old, Sir.

MR SAMUELS: And you belong to the ANC?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: That is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Do you live in Thokoza?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: And were you a Self Defence Unit member in Thokoza during the early 90's?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: And who was your commander?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Mr Xnube.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  You are applying for amnesty for three offences, attempted murder, possession of AK47 and possession of an R4, is that correct?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you perhaps in his application itself, from page 111, show us where he mentions any of these offences.

MR SAMUELS: No, it's not mentioned specifically.  On page 113, 112, in answer to the question: Furnish sufficient particulars of any acts, he says
"General defence of the community against the IFP."
My submission is that at the time when these applications were filled in, not all the applicants were ad idem on what it is that they were going to specifically write in each application.  There had been - and it may be viewed incorrectly that a policy decision was taken on how to fill in these forms and on that reason my submission is, there will logically be a difference between what the applicant will be saying now in oral testimony as opposed to that paragraph A(1).  
	I appreciate that can be argued on a matter of inconsistency and therefore can be rejected as evidence.  My argument would be that a general phrase was written and it is only now that the specifics are available, that we have tried to hand them up.  I understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the problem that we face, and I think you're going to have to argue this very strongly, is that when they say "in general defence of the community", that in itself is not a crime.

MR SAMUELS: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And hence the question, how does the application fit in here?

MR SAMUELS: Yes, again my only submission is, it was a general policy decision taken not by this specific applicant, by his political party, that these forms will be filled in in a certain way.  And in fact this also reflects on our previous difficulties of wanting to lead previous witnesses and history and the manner in which the hearings would have been held.
	My submission is that the specific acts that the applicant will now testify to, or the general defence of the community encompasses those specific acts, being defending his community against marchers along a certain street.  I would submit that his specific acts that he will tell us about now can be included within that very, very general phrase, "general defence of the community."  That is my only submission on that point.  If you wish us to argue on ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think let me allow you to lead the evidence, with the rider that I'm not particularly convinced that this is a proper application at this stage.  Perhaps you will at the end persuade us all that is okay, and we will wait till then.

MR SAMUELS: Okay, thank you.  May I continue?

ADV DE JAGER: Only for the record, Ms Patel, were particulars asked at a certain stage and where they supplied, when and so on?

MS PATEL: If you grant me a moment I will double-check.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)

ADV MOTATA: Mr Samuels, I just want to clear one thing.  I just want the correct spelling of his surname.

MR SAMUELS: Sure.

ADV MOTATA: Are you Molahlehi or Molahleni?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: That is Molahlehi, H-I at the end.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, M-O-L?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: M-O-L-O-L-A-H-I, H-L-E-H-I, Molahlehi.

MR SAMUELS: You have applied for amnesty for the attempted murder of IFP marchers, is that correct?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: When did this incident occur?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: It was late 1992, towards the end of 1992.

MR SAMUELS: And in which street did this incident occur?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Schoeman Road.

MR SAMUELS: And where about is that, in which neighbourhood?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: It is between Unit F and Buyafuti hostel.

MR SAMUELS: Now describe in your own words what happened.

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: What happened that day, the Inkatha marchers were singing from the hostel.  Because we were afraid that when they come back they will come and attack us we went into Unit F so that we could see the direction that they were taking.
	When we arrived there, we saw them moving towards our houses, so we tried to stop them.  While trying to stop them we were armed with AK47s as members of the ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: What were you trying to stop them from doing?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: It is known that whenever they march, when they come back they will kill people and we didn't want them to reach our places because we knew that they would attack us.  That's why we stopped them.
	So the shootout ensued because they were also shooting at us and we were also shooting at them.  They were accompanied by the Stability Unit.  This unit was also helping them to shoot us until we surrendered because we realised that they were being helped by the Stability Unit.  Then we ran away.
	During that incident one member of Inkatha was in the front.  During that shootout he fell.  He had an R4.  So I had a chance to go and take that R4 and then I took that R4 and ran away with it.

MR SAMUELS: Where is that R4 now?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: When we were told to hand our hand over our weapons after the elections, I returned that R4, I handed it over.

MR SAMUELS: Who did you give it to?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: I didn't give it to a specific person, we just handed them over at the stadium.  We didn't know where they were taken to.

MR SAMUELS: Now you said that when the IFP marchers were coming along Schoeman Street, you were shooting in their direction, how far away did you stand from these marchers, approximately?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: It could be about 100 metres from where I was standing.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  And the AK47 that you had in your possession, did you know that it was illegal to have an Ak47 in your possession?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, I did, but because of the situation then, I was forced to have it in my possession.

MR SAMUELS: And did you also know that to hold the R4 was unlawful, illegal?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, I do.

MR SAMUELS: I see, thank you.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUELS

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if anybody was killed or injured during that event?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: No, Chairperson, I don't know of any person that was injured or killed during that shoot-out.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, but didn't you tell us about somebody, and you in fact took his R4 or was that not on that occasion?