Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Swart, at the time when the investigation was being carried out by the police, was there any reference to rifles, or whether there had been rifles from the Investigating Officer or from your side?  Was there any reason to state that there were rifles in that room or not?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

MR PRINSLOO: So that was not referred to at all?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, not as far as my memory goes.

MR PRINSLOO: Well, in the statement to the police that was contained in the file, it is and I made a copy of it, it is the A1 statement with which the docket is opened, and it is a typed statement, and the date is 24 April 1994, and on that statement on page 2, paragraph 8 I refer to, the deceased and I were armed only with pistols and did not have any rifles.
	Would you like to have a look at it?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, I take your word for it.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you say had no rifles?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I don't know.  I don't know why I would have mentioned that.

MR PRINSLOO: The Investigating Officer who took the statement from you, who had them compiled ...

ANDRE RENIER SWART: May I just interrupt, it is possible that while the Investigating Officer was drafting the statement, he had asked us which firearms we had in the room and he might have asked whether we also had rifles in the room, because if you take into account that we were defending the main gate, that is possible that the question might have arisen whether we had long arms with us.
	That is the way I could have mentioned it.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it equally possible that the Investigating Officer might have had information that these people were looking for rifles?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: couldn't reply to that with clarity because I am not sure, I wouldn't know.

MR PRINSLOO: According to a ballistic report in the docket, two cartridges were found, apparently those of 9 mm pistol and then a projectile was also found.  According to the Ballistics Officer, that of a .38 round.  So three shots had been fired, yet according to the first and the third applicant, three shots had been fired.
	Is it possible, it happened quickly?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, it is possible.

MR PRINSLOO: Another aspect is that your attention was on the person who wanted to take away your firearm and who wanted to shoot you, who was holding a loaded revolver in his hand.  At that stage was Mr Terreblanche standing, the deceased, was he standing with the other person?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, both the deceased and myself were still seated.

MR PRINSLOO: At which stage did you get up because the light was off?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: You must understand they moved into us, the persons stood next to us, they took away our firearms, then Constable Terreblanche got up, pushed the person against the wall and it could have been in the struggle, when he pressed the person against the wall, that the switch could have gone, that the light could have been switched off.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see it or not, was the light on or off?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, when the struggle started, the light was still on.

MR PRINSLOO: I would like to submit to you that according to the first applicant Mr Terreblanche got up, pulled his firearm, he grabbed the barrel of the person's firearm, a shot went off.  He can't remember where the shot came from, he was wounded in his arm, in his forearm and Mr Terreblanche lifted his firearm and when he lifted his firearm, he shot him, according to his version of the story.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Well, as I said it happened so quickly.  All that I could see that night was that Constable Terreblanche jumped out and started struggling with the person.

MR PRINSLOO: In all fairness, may I state to you, is it possible it could have happened in that way?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, it is possible that it could have happened in that way.

MR PRINSLOO: The other aspect is ... (tape ends) ... you very quickly looked for cover, dived onto the floor and got out of the room?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Terreblanche, did he die immediately according to your testimony, he was groaning?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, I don't know whether I just pressed out the last air from his lungs, but he did make a groaning noise.

MR PRINSLOO: And he was in the area of the door?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, he was left there.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Swart, that night was a Saturday evening.  Were you called to order, were your weapons inspected or didn't it work that way any more as in the past?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Strictly speaking it should have worked that way, but as a matter of fact, we reported to the gate and then the Sergeant who was in command that evening, would visit the gate, sign your pocket book and I can't even remember what the form was, SAP13, your service register, but everything was filled in there, your name, your firearm, your Force number, the number of rounds, etc, those were all filled in.

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, the standard sort of thing.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: But an inspection wasn't done to check your pistol, see how many rounds of ammunition you had, etc, that didn't happen that Saturday?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, it didn't.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Terreblanche didn't inspect your firearm, not did you inspect his?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

MR PRINSLOO: So you couldn't say whether there was a round in the chamber of his firearm?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, strictly speaking I couldn't testify to that.

MR PRINSLOO: But from what you know, there was not supposed to be one there?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, that is correct.  You might appreciate the deceased and I lived together on a farm outside Leslie, in other words we got up in the mornings, at the same time, we cleaned our firearms, we each knew how the other dealt with and handled their firearms, and we knew the safety factors involved.

MR PRINSLOO: But there was a lot of violence at that time.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, and we worked in violent areas at that stage.

MR PRINSLOO: Many policemen had been testified in courts, they used the term "one up", ready to cock and ready to fire?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: You can't say at all where the shots came from, who had fired the shots?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, I can't.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Your Honour, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo.  If there had been no round in the chamber or wherever, would the pistol have had to be cocked in order to fire a shot?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see whether Mr Terreblanche do anything like cocking his weapon?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, I didn't see anything like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you or Mr Terreblanche at all resist when these people said sit still, don't do stupid things, and hand over your firearms?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Well, if you were to say that we found it amusing and smiled and thought it was people of our own base who were having a practical joke on us, and you regarded that as resistance, then yes, but we didn't try to draw our arms and resist in that manner.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say it was only when the second person was right at Mr Terreblanche, when he jumped up?  At that stage, not when they came in the door?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Not as far as I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: After the persons had said remain seated, don't do stupid things, neither of you two tried to get up?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, that is correct, we remained seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your back turned to the window?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: There are two windows.  If you look at where the window and the television was, my back was to the window behind me.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a window right ahead of you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, not in the wall right opposite us.