Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR BASSON: Mr Chairman, I want to repeat, it was at a certain stage that everybody goes through that phase that they want this colourless, odourless, lethal substance, until you start reading about it and doing research.   I'm repeating, it was part of our defensive project to do research whether something like that was possible, and I want to tell you, in this world of the chemical and biological warfare, it's the world where there is the most misleading happenings world-wide.   What is the threat of the CBW?   Not the substance, but the threat surrounding these substances.   It's easy to say that one gram of a substance can kill a million people, but it's difficult to get one million people to stand in a row and inject all of them.
 The whole concept, and I want to say it, the reason why CBW contains such a threat is because of the risk it entails.   If I fight against an enemy and I know that he has chemical weapons and he throws some or other projectile on my troops and there's some or other red smoke and some or other person complains that his eyes are burning, what should I do in that regard?   All that I can do for that person is say, "Put on your protective clothing" because I, as a commanding officer, do not have the ability to decide within a few seconds what has landed on you, whether it was a lethal substance, so the soldier uses his protective clothing, and that means the effectivity is diminished by 60%, he can't hear, he can't run, so he cannot fight, but the enemy who threw that on me, he knows exactly what he has thrown on me and he could have made the necessary preparations to safeguard his troops, or they could have told them, "Leave the clothes, just use the masks", in other words the enemy's effectivity remains the same, and this substance which he throws on me, we do not know what it is, just the threat that they can use something on me, that is what CBW is about, it is about making the playing fields unequal, and I want to force my enemy to take in a certain stand where he has to demobilise himself by using protective clothes and he is diminishing his capabilities to fight.   If you can't see, hear or run, it's impossible to fight.   These are cardinal elements of warfare.   The problem is that the toxic potential of most of these substances are over-emphasised.   Where once we helped the Americans out of a predicament, where they heard that the Russians had developed a new CBW substance which goes through all filters and defence mechanisms.   Through our channels, we obtained that from Russia and we analysed it and we saw that it goes through every defence mechanism, and the western countries were hysterical about this.   Our approach was a bit different.   We were not worried because it went through all the filters... (intervention).

MR VALLY: Dr Basson, I'm sorry, I haven't been cutting you short, because I realise you don't have legal representation and I have to be a bit gentler now, but we hear you, that's your whole overall thesis as to why the CBW programme was started, but coming back towards the question was... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, can I have an indication how long you are still going to be?

MR VALLY: I would say, Mr Chairperson, approximately an hour 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know if, Mr Vally, that's the length of time that I am ready to sit.

MR VALLY: We can take a short break if you want, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not intend to take a short break, I intend to impose a time limit, I am definitely not sitting beyond half past seven, that's the worst I can sit.

MR VALLY: As the Chair pleases.   The question that I started asking before your long answer was simply this, there seemed to be a preoccupation, and Dr Van Rensburg said so as well, with finding colourless, odourless toxic substances which cannot be traced in post-mortems, and you responded earlier on that that was a phase you were going through until you learnt otherwise.   Am I to understand you correctly?

DR BASSON: No, I didn't say it was a phase we went through, I said it's a phase that most countries have gone through.  We went through that phase rather more quickly than most other people, because we had the advantage of their technical information which we could use.

MR VALLY: So there was a period when we were looking for those substances?

DR BASSON: No, Mr Vally, I'm going to say this for the last time, we were not looking for those substances.   It was part of my instruction to watch out for the possibility that those substances were there.  My instructions to researchers were clear, "If you obtain any information or hear about or have certain flights of fancy, do research about this so that we can develop the necessary protective measures for the South African society at large".

MR VALLY: So the research into brodifarcum and monansin was not related to this?

DR BASSON: Mr Chairman, I can't, really can't remember where the brodifarcum and monansin research fitted into this whole picture, I can't comment on this, it's been years since I've last worked with this substance, whether those are tasteless, odourless or colourless, I don't know.   If it so, it could be possible that the research could have been done and then we had to determine whether this was a threat for the South African society in its whole, or whether on an individual basis against certain agents.   I want to tell you that these tasteless, odourless, colourless substances, and I'm glad I'm not going to be involved in that in September, in the non-aligned conference is going to be held in September, South Africa is going to see what is protective measures for heads of states and dignitaries, because there are long, bizarre protective measures to protect their dignitaries.   We didn't do more or less than any other country in the world would have done.

MR CHASKALSON: Mr Vally has urgently gone to answer the call of nature and apologises.   He requested a two minute recess whilst just ....

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a two minute recess, or Dr Randera, do you want to step into the breach?

DR RANDERA: Dr Basson, maybe we can take up this time by some questions that I've been wanting to ask you.

DR BASSON: You're stacking the odds against me now, I'm supposed to be facing one at a time.

DR RANDERA: Unless you want to also answer to the call of nature.

DR BASSON: If I do, I'll request a 45 minute break for that.

DR RANDERA: Prostatism !   Alright.   Dr Basson, I want to take you back to what you said this morning about your entry really into the world of chemical and biological warfare, and that was that conference you went to in 1981, well, around that, 1982?

DR BASSON: Ja, that wasn't, the conference wasn't the entry point, the entry point was before that.

DR RANDERA: Sure, okay, but I believe it was... (intervention).

DR BASSON: The conference was one of the consequences.

DR RANDERA: It was part of the build-up towards this programme.   And when asked the question as to how, because you said it was relatively easy to be accepted by your fellow scientists, you were going there with your MD in cardiology and interacting with these individuals, and part of the rationale, as I understood you saying people accepted you so easily was that there was this, there was the cold war going on, and the fear of what the Eastern Bloc may have achieved, was in the process of achieving, now what I'm trying to understand about that period is that, you know if one looks at, particularly the countries you mentioned, the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia, that really was the height of the anti-apartheid movement developing, there was a consciousness, there was a snowballing effect taking place in Europe, but yet you're saying that amongst scientists the more major concern, here you were, you know, an affirmative action appointee from the eighties... (intervention).