Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

UNKNOWN: Mr Erasmus, I am putting the questions I am about to put to you because I am under the impression that both from the evidence of Mr Harrington and yourself, the impression I get from both your evidence is that despite the fact that the deceased and his group were searched, the pocketbook was initially not found but rather subsequently.  Do I understand your evidence correctly in that way?

ANSWER: They informed me at the bottle store about the pocketbook.  As far as I know they did not find a pocketbook in his possession where they detained him.

UNKNOWN: ... page 3 of your statement, you will see that what you are saying is that - in the middle of the page - "When we were passing ...".  (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 4) ... They did not want me to search him.  I slapped him and some of the special constables held him so that he could be searched.

UNKNOWN: ... you immediately suspected that this person was hiding something because be was putting his hand in his back pocket and that is why you stopped the vehicle.

ANSWER: That is correct.
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UNKNOWN: /...
MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE	75	F S ERASMUS

UNKNOWN: And because of his behaviour you immediately became interested in searching him, am I right?

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: In fact, you were so much interested in searching him that when he refused you beat him up.

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: In fact, again, you were so much interested in searching him that the special constables were asked to hold him up so that he could be searched.

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And already at that stage you were suspecting that he must be having something which he didn't want you to see.

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You had this intense interest in having him searched to find out what he was having, and despite the fact that the special constables held him for the purpose of being so searched, the pocketbook was not found at that stage, is that what you are saying?

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Then surely you must have been surprised subsequently to hear that a pocketbook was found from him.  You must have been surprised.

ANSWER: Yes, that is so.   When they searched him and found nothing, the impression was that we were going to take him for questioning and when we stopped at the bottle store I was informed by Mr Harrington that he had a pocketbook and it seems strange to me that the pocketbook was not found at the first scene where we encountered him.

UNKNOWN: I don't understand how, despite
1.4	the/...
MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE	76	F S ERASMUS
the fact that he attracted attention to himself that he was hiding something, despite the fact that he was held up so that he could be thoroughly searched how, if he did in fact have a pocketbook at that stage, how it could have been missed.

ANSWER: As I said, after I slapped him, I attempted to search him and he resisted and I slapped him and then I withdrew from the whole situation and I stood and watched while the other members searched him.  Who searched him I cannot say with certainty today.  As you say, it was very strange to me that nothing was found in his possession at that stage.

UNKNOWN: ... searched him, isn't it?

ANSWER: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: ... searched him until they were satisfied that they had searched him properly.

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now where does the pocketbook subsequently emerge?

ANSWER: I cannot say.  The information which I received was that the pocketbook was found afterwards.  I did not see the pocketbook.  I cannot answer you with regards to that question as to when the pocketbook was found.  It was very strange, because with the initial search the pocketbook was not found.

UNKNOWN: So much trouble is taken to search a man, subsequently according to the version that we heard today, a pocketbook is found only to be thrown away.

ANSWER: Yes, it is so.  My colleague probably decided at the time that it was best to dispose of this pocketbook.  The reason for that I cannot say.
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UNKNOWN: /...
MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE	77	F S ERASMUS

UNKNOWN: I took you sentence by sentence in the statement of your colleague, Mr Madlala, do you remember that?  Paragraph 25, which Mr Brink read to you, and subsequently I took you sentence by sentence.  You will remember that?

ANSWER: I can vaguely remember at the moment when they searched this man that they did not find the pocketbook.

UNKNOWN: He makes no reference to the finding of a pocketbook in the paragraph that I read to you earlier on, sentence for sentence.

ANSWER: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Erasmus, what did you expect to find from the deceased by submitting him to that extensive search?

ANSWER: When he suddenly jumped up, we expected to find a firearm in his possession.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you found no firearm.

ANSWER: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You then proceeded to put the deceased in the back of the van with a view of further submitting him to a further search or with a view of obtaining further information?

ANSWER: I did not put him in the back of the vehicle.  Mr Harrington said that I should drive the vehicle from there to the point where we were going to pick up the other special constables.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... told you was that he was put in the back of the van because he wanted to ascertain further information.  That is page 3 of your statement.

ANSWER: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you at any stage ascertain from Harrington, who you saw as the leader or as the person who
1.4	was/..
MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE	78	F S ERASMUS
was the person in charge of your activities, whether the deceased had admitted to being a member of the ANC?

ANSWER: No.  The fact that he was wearing the ANC T-shirt, and this group was residing in that area, told me that he was an ANC member.  And the information which I got from Mr Harrington about what was in the pocketbook is all that I based my information on.   They informed me about the pocketbook and that they attacked an Inkatha house and that he was an ANC member.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did Mr Harrington say anything to you about the deceased's admission with regard to the contents of the pocketbook?

ANSWER: No, he merely informed me and all that he said to me was about the content which he had read in that book which had been written by Mr Jama and that he had committed acts of terrorism.   I did not see the pocketbook at any stage.

UNKNOWN: "Volgens u kennis was daar geen inligting dat mnr Jama ..." - what was in the pocketbook?

ANSWER: No, I merely took Mr Harrington's word, I accepted it as the truth, since he was my senior at the time.  I went on what he informed me of what was in the pocketbook.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... out of the police vehicle, was he in charge of your activities for that day?

ANSWER: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... was he in charge of the police vehicle or was he in charge of anything that you did in relation to your duties as law enforcement officers of your police station?

ANSWER: On this specific day he was in charge of the vehicle and he was in charge of all of us who worked in that
1.4	vehicle/...
MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE	79	F S ERASMUS
vehicle with that.  All that I was was the vehicle driver.

UNKNOWN: Who was the Station commander at the time?  Who was the Unit Commander at the time?

ANSWER: If I remember correctly after Major Terblanche's death it was Danie Meyer and then Colonel Bok Fourie came.  It could have been Mr Danie Meyer, it could have been Colonel Bok Fourie, I speak under correction.  If I were to think back I would say that it probably was Colonel Fourie.

UNKNOWN: You say in your statement that you were indoctrinated, that you regarded the ANC as the enemy and that this indoctrination led to you committing this act, is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: What was this indoctrination, what were you told to do?