Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

CHAIRPERSON: Can the next witness be called please.

MR SAMUELS: I call Meshack Thulo, application 7714/97.

ADV DE JAGER: 771?

MR SAMUELS: 4.  It's volume two on the second page.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible)

MR SAMUELS: 266.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thulo, what language would you prefer to speak?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Sotho, Sir.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MR SAMUELS: Mr Thulo, are you 27 years old?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  What work do you do know?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I'm a business councillor.

MR SAMUELS: Are you a member of the ANC?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: And from 1990 until now, did you live in Thokoza?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I was born in Thokoza.

MR SAMUELS: Were you a member of an SDU?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: That is correct.

MR SAMUELS: And who was your commander?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: That is Chris Motokwe.

MR SAMUELS: You are applying for amnesty for two crimes, the first on is kidnapping and the second one is possession of ammunition, is that correct?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUELS: Okay.  Describe in your own words to the hearing, the kidnapping.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I don't remember the actual date of that particular incident of kidnapping.  What I remember is that it was on the day when people from the hostel were going to bury their members ...(indistinct) to Polla Park.

CHAIRPERSON: You're going too quickly.

ADV MOTATA: I didn't hear the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You're going to fast and the interpreters have to keep up.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I don't remember the actual date but it was in 1993.  It was when the hostel dwellers were going to bury on of their members.  They were coming from the hostel direction.
	They started to shoot from the tennis court in Thokoza ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who shot from the tennis court, the funeral marchers?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I would say those people who were shooting we were not able to identify them.

CHAIRPERSON: No, what I - shots from the general direction of the tennis courts were discharged in which direction, to whom?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: They were in houses next to the tennis court.  We did not agree with them that they should pass through Khumalo Street when they were going to the cemetery.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were these shots directed at?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Those people who attended the funeral were those who were shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, yes, carry on.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: After that shooting I was from Extension 5 towards Beirut.  We met Peter Sewasi.  We were three in that car.  It was myself, Siphiwe Galata and Linda Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Linda Radebe.  I was driving towards Polla Park looking for AK47 ammunition because I was ordered to go and buy those ammunitions.  Linda Radebe who has since died saw Peter Sewasi, who is my co-applicant.  They asked me that my car should be used.  Peter was having a red headband like members of the IFP whom we were fighting with.
	When he was put in the car, because police were many and the soldiers.  We drove to Polla Park.  When we arrived at Polla Park we found that there was a meeting of neighbours around Polla Park.  We explained that we were afraid to take along one person who had a red band, in case the police and the soldiers saw us and seeing that person in our car.
	I was driving a Kadette 1992 model.  It was white in colour.  Registration of that car is RRS674T. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand, just hold on.  This person with the red band, where did that person come from?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: We found him immediately after those people who were shooting dispersed.  Many things happened which he was implicated in those things around our area.  When we took that person we wanted him to explain the neighbours of Unit F.  Because there were people who disappeared, he was seen with people who were members of the hostel, who were staying in the hostel.  We wanted him to come and explain as to whether what happened to those people who were kidnapped by hostel dwellers whom he was with at that time.

MR SAMUELS: Okay, Mr Thulo, ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly explain, did he get into your car voluntarily or did you grab him, how did he land in your car?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: We requested him to get inside the car but he wanted to run away, then we forced him inside the car.

MR SAMUELS: Now Mr Thulo, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you want him to explain?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: He was involved in - there were allegations that he was involved in incidents of people who were kidnapped.  Where I'm staying is near the hostel.  When there were shootings he identified with Buyafuti's hostel dwellers.
	He was again seen taking three boys who were just walking in the street around the township in Unit F.  I don't know where they came from, but unfortunately they were stabbed with assegais by residents of Bhuyafuti hostel and he was present.

CHAIRPERSON: So you believed that he had associated himself with the commission of crimes?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that was my belief, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now before I interrupted you you told us that you said to certain people that you were uncomfortable with taking this person into your car because he had a red band on.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, that's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Please explain that to me, I don't follow that.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: When we met with Peter, we met at Sheagwe. it's near Polla Park.  When we took him inside the car we were afraid to pass through the township because the police and the soldiers were around that area.  We took him to Polla Park where I was supposed to go and buy AK47 ammunition.
	When we arrived there we saw people assembled in a meeting.  It was near to a water tank next to Polla Park.  When I explained to the meeting, because they saw me driving faster inside, we told them that we should take that person to Unit F because we were not protected and we were afraid that the police and soldiers would see us.
	We wanted to leave him there and then we would return later when the police have left the township.  I bought what I was supposed to buy.  I left those ammunitions in Section F.

MR SAMUELS: Sorry, Mr Thulo, just on the point of the meeting, you say that you took Peter Sewasi to this meeting, did you leave him there?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I left him there.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I left him there.

MR SAMUELS: And where did you go to?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I returned to Section F, after buying the AK ammunition.

MR SAMUELS: Did you have anything else to do with Peter Sewasi at that meeting?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I requested that I should leave him there.

MR SAMUELS: I see.  Do you in fact know what happened to Peter Sewasi at that meeting after you left?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: As I've already explained, I left them, I went to Unit F.  When I returned to Polla Park later I found him dead.  When I tried to find out as to what happened to him, they showed me where they burnt him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you expect to see him alive when you got there?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Yes, I expected to find him alive, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know something here now, how much ammunition did you buy?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: Between 1993 and 1994 I think I've bought plus-minus three thousand rounds.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm talking about that day.

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: I bought 250 rounds.

CHAIRPERSON: From whom?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: There was a person who was selling ammunition.  His name is Uys.  We were calling each other by code names, so I did not know and I don't know his full names.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he would have obtained these rounds?

MESHACK TSEKO THULO: It was difficult to find out as to where he got them from.