Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Some comrades fled into exile during that course of time, but they lasted up until 1990's.

CHAIRPERSON: So every year from 1985 to 1990, you attended various meetings regarding the accumulation of funds, am I correct?  Do I understand you correctly?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was not only the question of funds that was discussed at those meetings, there were other issues that were raised.  I just regret the fact that I'm addressing people who do not know what type of life we led at the township at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me rest you assured that each and every one of us are aware of what type of life was lived in South Africa.  Apart from that, the quality of life we lived, different people, has nothing to do with the question.  All I'm asking is as far as you're concerned, when did you stop attending such meetings?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We used to attend those meetings even in 1990, 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you can remember the only method of accumulating funds that you remember, you say, was stealing vehicles.  That was one of the suggestions, correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was not only that, but there was also a suggestion for every person to contribute something towards that fund.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were you told now what to do with this, or how was this car going to help your treasury?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It would have been sold.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would sell it?

CHAIRPERSON: There are people who buy stolen cars in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that's not the question.  Who would see it, not who would buy it.  Who would sell it?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I could have sold it because I know of certain people in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, that's what I was getting at.  What I'm trying to find out is once a car is stolen, what would be done with that car?  Would the thief go sell it or would you be expected to hand it in to certain official of the organisation for him to sell it? What would be the position?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We would have approach Mandla about the latter and he would have to decide how to dispose of the car.

CHAIRPERSON: I ask that question because we've heard this type of evidence before, but yet you tell me you could have sold it.  What is the correct position?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: The primary issue was getting the funds, it was not so important who sold the vehicle.  We could have sold it on our own and brought the money back to Mandla.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't it the rule that once you stole a car, you should go to your Commander and say:  "Look, we have succeeded in stealing a car.  We have it.  What must we do now with it?"  Wasn't that the practice?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Unfortunately no vehicle was stolen, but it was an idea that was raised at a meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: So in the five or six years that you were involved in these meetings where amongst other things ideas as to how to raise funds, including the theft of vehicles, you were not party to such an event, am I correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: There were many things that took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just repeat that, Ms Interpreter?

INTERPRETER: The applicant said there were many things that took place at the time.

UNKNOWN: Didn't he also say he couldn't remember as a result?

INTERPRETER: Some of which he could not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Where's Mandla now?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I have been in prison for a while, so I do not know whether he's still alive.

MS LOONAT: Your Honour, may I add to that please?  This matter was set down last year and because it was remanded for this year at that time because we couldn't get hold of Mandla, the investigation wasn't properly done.  At the time we were in Pietermaritzburg and Lulama Mtanga was the Evidence Leader and whilst we were there in Pietermaritzburg, she phoned a telephone number that my client had given her.  It  was the neighbour of Mandla, and that is when she realised that there was such a person, when the person at the other end answered and so this is why we remanded for this year, because there was some truth in what he was saying.  It was a gentleman, or somebody called Kholane, who answered and said:  "Yes, Mandla does live next door" and this was when the matter was remanded for this year because investigations weren't complete and I believe it's still not been followed up.  I personally tried to phone this number when I was given instruction again this year and the number's dead.  The number that was given then is 503 5077 and that is what I believe Ms Mtanga dialled while we were there, so there was an existence of such a person.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So you tell us that over a period of 5 to 6 years, you cannot recollect whether there was a motor car theft, do I understand you correctly?  Am I correct?  There was never a car theft during that five or six years that you were attending these meetings?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, there was not.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any other idea, or other way of raising funds for the organisation that was in fact put into operation?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Will you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: You say that there was never a car theft during that period.  Did the organisation or was the organisation able to raise funds in any other way during that period?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: There was a time when comrades collected or contributed towards assisting others to cross into exile, but that was not much.

UNKNOWN: But that had nothing to do with the collecting of money for firearms, that was for a different purpose, correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was not much, so it could not have bought firearms.  We just gave it to the comrades who were going into exile.

UNKNOWN: So the only reason - the only manner collecting money that you know of that was discussed at all these meetings, was the stealing of vehicles?  Do we understand you correctly?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, that is not so.  We also managed to contribute or to collect some monies amongst ourselves, but it was not enough.

UNKNOWN: And besides that, was there any other manner of collecting money, besides the two you have now mentioned?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Eventually Mandla realised that the issue of collecting funds was not progressing, so it was decided that we should go rob a bank.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that happen, or when was that decided?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: In 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in one of these meetings?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Because he trusted me, Mandla called me aside.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it at one of these meetings?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was after the meeting that he approached me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he approach you privately, or in front of others?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: He just called me to the side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and then?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Then he told me that because of our failure to secure funds in any other manner, he realises that we would have to rob a bank and there was one bank that he knew of.  He also instructed me to get two other people to assist in that mission.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I hear you correctly, he told you which bank to go to?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say this instruction came in 1990?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: More or less in which month?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was towards the end of the year.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and then what happened?

UNKNOWN: Can I just check something, if I may.  Did he also say to you that you should get two others to help you?  Did I hear that properly?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: He said because he could not identify anybody he trusted in the meeting, I should look two other people who would assist me.

UNKNOWN: So he didn't know of any other comrades to help you with this, therefore he told you to find two other people.  Is that right?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I think so, that's how we saw it.

UNKNOWN: Well did he tell you that or didn't he?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: The comrades were busy at K Section, so they could not have assisted us.