Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

MR VAN DER BERG: So it can be the fact that it could have been 15 to 20 minutes.  From the time you got there it's about 15 to 20 minutes, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I would seem to respond by saying I do not know.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, were there some of the other security forces at the scene of the crime whilst you were there?  Were there other security forces, either from the Defence Force or from the police who came and stood there with you?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Sir, I told you that I saw nobody there and I say that I saw nobody, that includes the policemen, any living being.  When I say I saw nobody, it means any living being including the police or anyone else.

MR VAN DER BERG: At this stage I'd just like to tell you that we're going to show you a video where it's quite evident that there were other people present.  I'm not going to take this any further.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not disagree with what is on the video but when you show me that video you must know the fact that I still maintain that I did not see these people, but if you insist that I saw these people we can go ahead and view the video, but I'm still maintaining that I did not see those people.  I said this yesterday and I'm still maintaining the fact.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, as a policeman you arrive at the scene, you see the people are surrendering, they say: "Don't shoot", they're lying down there, why did you not arrest them there or make sure that they are safe and make sure that you disarm them, why didn't you do that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: My response yesterday was my situation and the state I was in, and I was nervous, and the fact that these people surrendered after having done what they had done to the black people, I saw it totally impossible to arrest them because of the war situation that was prevailing.  It was a war situation.

MR VAN DER BERG: Was it your plan from the start to shoot them?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat your question.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, did you plan to shoot them right from the start?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, in a war situation anything is possible.

MR VAN DER BERG: What makes it impossible for you to disarm these people and to secure a situation?  Why is that impossible?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Sir, as I was there, when I got there I did not have any intention of disarming them.  Because of the situation that was prevailing I did not have intentions of disarming them.

MR VAN DER BERG: And you also did not want to arrest them?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: In a war situation Sir, there is no time to arrest a person.  Once the war has started and all hell has broken loose, there is no time to arrest you or arrest a person.

MR VAN DER BERG: So you're saying today that you did not have time to arrest these people?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: The situation that was prevailing at that time and the state of mind I was in at that time did not allow me to arrest them.  We were at war with them after having shot black people in front of my eyes.  I witnessed that.

MR VAN DER BERG: But Sir, what makes the situation so strange?  I do not understand why you say it made it impossible for you to arrest these people.  All you have to do is arrest three people.  You the policeman, you were trained, you took an oath as a policemen, it's your task to arrest people.  That is your duty.  Now they are lying there, so what makes it so difficult for you to arrest these people and to perform your task?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I don't want to be seen to be doing my learned friend's job but really this line of questioning, with due respect, I don't know where we are getting to.  This man has described it so many times, even yesterday, that it was a war situation.  He never said it was impossible to arrest them.  I don't know where we are getting to, with due respect.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I probably agree with you, Mr Mpshe, maybe this a question for argument Mr van der Berg.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it pleases you, Mr Chairperson, I will not take it further.
	Mr Menyatsoe, why did you interview the AWB members?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yesterday, even now, I have just said to you I arrived at those people and I questioned those people.  One of them said he is from Naboomspruit.  I asked them again what they were doing here and they told me that I should ask the State President.  I interviewed these people before I shot them.  I said that yesterday.  Even this morning I said to you I interviewed them before I shot them.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question was, Mr Menyatsoe, why did you question them?  If you were going there with the intent to shoot them, why did you question them?  That is the question that is being put to you.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I wanted to find out where they come from and what are they doing as they were attacking the black people.  Who are they, who are they to come and attack the black people, where do they come from, who instructed them to come and kill the black people.  That was my intention in that interview.  I wanted to know that.  Where do they come from, who instructed them to come in that area and as to what they are coming to do.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, but that was not the question, it was two questions.  You said where did they come from and the other one was who sent them.  I did not ask who gave the instructions, that is new evidence.  The first was where they come from and what they are doing here.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: For me to not give you the correct answers is because you're asking me so many questions.  Even now you are taking me around, that is why you find me adding in that information.  You asked me as to whether I did interview those people, then I said yes, I did before I shot them.

MR VAN DER BERG: Did you at any stage see people of the media talking ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He said many, many times, Mr van der Berg, he didn't see any media people.  I don't know why you insist on asking if he saw any media people talking to him.  He's made it quite clear that he didn't see any media people and that he didn't see any, in fact he said he didn't even see any living being there but he's not disputing that they were there.  So I mean the question of whether he saw them talking to media people I don't think is going to get anywhere.

MR VAN DER BERG: As it please you, Mr Chairperson.
	Did you at any stage see of the security forces who were there, did you the security forces disarm some of the AWB members?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I explained yesterday that I did not see any person disarming these people.  I explained to you yesterday.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, what according to you is a state of war, could you just explain it to the Committee?  You constantly talk about the state of war, can you explain this?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: The situation of war is the situation where people are shooting each other, when people lose their lives, when people are injured.

MR VAN DER BERG: Would you describe the stage or that period - that period that you mentioned now, would you describe that as a state of war?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I explained that we were in a situation of war.

MR VAN DER BERG: Sir, my question was, that specific period, would you describe that period as a state of war?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: According to me I explained that it was a situation of war.

MR VAN DER BERG: Do you think, Mr Menyatsoe, at that stage when the three AWB members were lying outside of the vehicle, that the situation was dangerous and that it was risky?