Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well sir, why in your application for amnesty that starts on page 90, why did you then, why do you apply for amnesty for happenings that occurred in Ermelo only?  If you look at page 93, paragraph 11(a)?

MR ZWANE: I can see that.  Would you please repeat the question.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why do you apply for amnesty only for occurrences in Ermelo?

MR ZWANE: I would like to explain it as follows, that what appear on page 5 right up to page 9, is what we were discussing as a Committee with the lawyers.  In so far as page 93 is concerned, is that I am reporting or stating things that happened within my knowledge here at Ermelo.

MS VAN DER WALT: What instructions did you give in terms of Piet Retief?

MR ZWANE: There is no instruction that I issued in so far as that is concerned.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Mr Mkhwanazi also testified the same, the previous applicant, that he gave no direct instruction to Gushu in Piet Retief.  Did you hear that?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I did hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you mean that he gave no direct instruction with regard to Piet Retief?

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you understand my question?  You as a member of the Committee, did you give any instructions with regard to Piet Retief?

MR ZWANE: None.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever find out that he had ever done anything in Piet Retief that amounted to a crime?

MR ZWANE: As I have explained that I was concerned about what was happening here at Ermelo and Mkhwanazi was the one who was in charge of things happening in other areas.
	We were only reported on what was happening here at Ermelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find out after the event, that Gushu had done something in Piet Retief?

MR ZWANE: I didn't attempt to get that information.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't have any knowledge of what happened in Piet Retief?

MR ZWANE: No, I didn't have knowledge.  I just knew that there was violence at Piet Retief as well, but I had no idea as to who was in charge of the comrades there.  I didn't have all the necessary details.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why do you then say on page 7, at the top of the page, the assassination of Alfius Msibi was planned in such a way that it appeared at the time to be a robbery, rather than politically motivated?

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if we can't find out now if this is one of the incidents regarding him.  If you will remember that he said it was part of his application in so far as it regards him.
	It is not clear from this if this is one of the incidents which he binds himself to.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, that is my problem with this application.  That is my problem with this document.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand your problem, but it is so and it is going to take some time, but then we have to find out.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you see that aspect concerning Mr Alfius Msibi on page 7?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way.  You have heard certain testimony tendered thus far in this hearing, regarding an incident related to Mr Msibi in Piet Retief, correct?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that one of the incidents for which you think you are responsible?

MR ZWANE: No, that is not so.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you there when this document was drawn up?

MR ZWANE: Everybody who was effected by the violence, submitted their own points and expressions and the lawyers were the ones who compiled the information.
	Part of the information here is my own personal expression and not everything here.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you not present when Mr Mkhwanazi gave the information to the Attorney?

MR ZWANE: Which Attorney are you talking about?

MS VAN DER WALT: The one who drew up this document?

MR ZWANE: It is as I have stated, that this doesn't mean that we were all together at the time when this document was being drafted.  Instead people sent their submissions to the lawyer at different times.
	I can say that I was not present when the document itself was being drafted or compiled.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have no further questions.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane, who was the Chairman of this Special Committee?

MR ZWANE: The Committee was such that there was no Chairperson.  It was just a Committee for us to get together around a table and discuss issues.

MR HATTINGH: When you testified that you were the Deputy Chairperson, to which Committee did you then refer?

MR ZWANE: I was Deputy Chairperson in the Civic Organisation.

MR HATTINGH: On page 6 of the Volume, the paragraph in the middle of the page which reads, all decisions to eliminate members of the Black Cats were taken in this Committee.
	Was that something with which you associated yourself with and in which you also took part?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct.  I supported this at the time and I still concur with the information as it appears in the document.

MR HATTINGH: Without referring to all the paragraphs, is it correct then to say that the only decisions to eliminate people pertained to Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya and no one else?

MR ZWANE: Would you please repeat the question.

MR HATTINGH: The decisions taken at this Special Committee for the elimination of a person, pertained only to Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane and no other person?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct but the decision that was made was that we at Wesselton had a problem or Ermelo as a whole, we wanted stability.
	The person who had to carry out this duty was supposed to ensure that we have stability at the end.  But then we would not go around killing everybody.  It became clear that the people who were problematic were amongst others Jwi Zwane, first of all and after Jwi Zwane, the problem continued and we also discussed Chris, because we realised that he too was equally problematic.
	That is how he got eliminated.

MR HATTINGH: To clarify this issue, were there any other name or person on a list of people to be assassinated regarding which a decision was made by your Special Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what the Advocate is asking, was there any specific decision in regard to any specific person other than the two already mentioned?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I agree with that.  We as a Committee, decided that if there is no stability people should continue working as expected, but ensure that no innocent people got hurt.
	But we never mentioned specifically any name, we just said they should continue ensuring that there is stability in the community.

MR HATTINGH: Just to clarify this, you did specifically mention the names of Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane, but apart from those two names, no other names were mentioned, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Apart from these specific instructions from your Committee for the assassination of people, was there another instruction to any of the operatives to proceed and to commit assassinations where necessary?

MR ZWANE: We had delegated Mr Mkhwanazi to ensure that stability is maintained.  I trust that he too passed the message on to his foot soldiers.
	What I would like to clarify here however, is that the violence never subsided after the death of the two, but then it was no longer clear as to who was taking the lead now in perpetrating this violence.
	It became clear that Jabu Mkhwanazi should talk to the people with whom he was working, and indicate to them that the violence should be brought to an end.  This is one other decision that we took.

CHAIRPERSON: That instructions to maintain or achieve stability, would that include killing other people?

MR ZWANE: If it was necessary yes, I would say that is so because we were trying to identify the perpetrator and if the person was perpetrating the violence such that we would not bring him to discussions, there was no alternatives, but to eliminate such a person.