Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Now, I will come back to that aspect.  I want to go on to the 30th of December 1988, your next entry where you made the comment that Cebekhulu claims that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela tried to put pressure on Dr Asvat to note physical signs of abuse in respect of Cebekhulu, Dr Asvat refuses.  What is your source for that?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: It is again from Cebekhulu's book, Katiza's journey.

MR VALLY: Let's go on to the 31st of December 1988.  What is your basis for saying that Dr Asvat visited Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and examined Mr Stompie Moketsi?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: These are from press reports which appeared in the paper during that period.

MR VALLY: Can you source it, specifically which press reports?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: I think it was the Sunday Star which carried that particular information.

MR VALLY: Does your Attorney have a copy thereof, your counsel, I beg your pardon?

MR KADES: Please repeat that?

MR VALLY: Do you have a copy of the medical reports which mention Dr Asvat examining Mr Moketsi, Stompie Moketsi?

MR KADES: No, we have not been able to find such records, if they in fact ever existed.

MR VALLY: I believe Mrs Madikizela-Mandela denies this, but I am sure her counsel will take this up.  I want to move on in terms of your chronology to the 11th of January, your next page.  It says the second sentence around this time Mono and the other boys see Dr Asvat in Mrs Mandela's home.  Thus far the evidence that we have had from I believe it is Mr Mekgwe and Mr Mono, has been that they were not seen by Dr Asvat.  Do you have any alternative proof of this?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, I don't.

MR VALLY: On the 14th of January 1989, you talk about the visit by the Mandela Crisis Committee at Dr Asvat's surgery at 6 pm?  They discussed the Stompie case, they also discussed allegations that other boys had been abused and according to Minister Sydney Mufamadi, Dr Asvat says he didn't examine them.
 The meeting purportedly lasted one minute and the Crisis Committee members leave immediately.  What is your basis for this statement?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: This is a personal communication from Minister Sydney Mufamadi.

MR VALLY: Do you know if Minister Sydney Mufamadi informed  you that your brother had in fact informed him that Katiza Cebekhulu had been brought there by Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No.

MR VALLY: That Jerry Richardson had been there the day before and on the day of his murder?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No.

MR VALLY: This would have been way before that, I beg your pardon, that is my fault.
 I want to move on to page 6 of your chronology.  On the 26th of January 1989, This is the day before your brother's murder and you found a medical record therein, do you have a copy of that medical record handy?  Can you please tell us what that says?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Well, the patient information the top part of the medical record card, is written in my brother's handwriting.

MR VALLY: Let's just stop there.  Normally this would be in Mrs Sisulu's handwriting?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MR VALLY: So what does it indicate to you if it was in your brother's handwriting?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: It indicates that Jerry Richardson had probably visited my brother some time after five o'clock and after Mrs Albertina Sisulu had left the consulting rooms, that is why all these details are in his handwriting.  He didn't do the weight or urine test on that particular evening which on the card it shows it was done the following day by Mrs Sisulu, her handwriting appears there.

MR VALLY: So you have both your brother's handwriting for the 26th of January with the patient details, and then you have Mrs Sisulu's handwriting on the 27th of January?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.  Also on top of the card, just below the J3336 is written "sent by Winnie", and this was written in red.

MR VALLY: To your knowledge was this unusual?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, it is very unusual having perused so many of his record cards, not one of them had any such details listed there whether the person had been referred by anybody else.

MR VALLY: Can you speculate as to why that was?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Well, I don't know, I can't speculate on that.

MR VALLY: Let's move on.  Let's go on to the 27th of January 1989.   Three quarter way through the first paragraph, there is reference to a volcanic row and is your source also Katiza's book there?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Do you have any independent verification hereof?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No sir.

MR VALLY: This was on the same day that your brother was killed?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.  I do remember hearing Ms Xoliswa Falati's mentioning something about a row when she went the following day after my brother had been murdered.

MR VALLY: Mentioning a row to whom?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: She mentioned it here at the Commission, that (indistinct) told her that there was a row.

MR VALLY: Thank you.  Now let's go to your brother's funeral, this was on the 28th of January 1989?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela attend this funeral together with members of her football team, accompanied by Mr Jerry Richardson and with Mr John Morgan as being the driver?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: I am not aware of who  was there on that particular day when the funeral was held, but I do remember as we drove past, I saw Mrs Madikizela-Mandela standing outside the cemetery and the football club uniform people going into the graveyard itself.

MR VALLY: Do you know which vehicle they arrived in?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, I have no idea.

MR VALLY: Let's move on to the day after the funeral.  There was a report in the Sunday Times in which Mrs Madikizela-Mandela is quoted as saying that Dr Asvat's death was a political assassination because he was the only person able to corroborate her story that the boys had been sexually assaulted.  Are you aware of this report?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: I am aware of that.

MR VALLY: Did you personally read it?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, I personally read that.

MR VALLY: Did you ever ask Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about this?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, we didn't get the opportunity at the time to ask her.

MR VALLY: Did she ever call you or the family and explained to you what this was about?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, all I remember was Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela phoning on the night of my brother's murder enquiring as to what had happened and who had done this evil deed.  I replied I didn't know who it was and that she said she will come and pay her respects a little later at night.

MR VALLY: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela states that she did not make this statement to the reporter.  This is what she told us in our Section 29 enquiry.  I need to ask you after this report appeared in the press, did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela contact the family and say this report is false and I did not make the statements?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, Mrs Mandela didn't do that after the report appeared, but she did about two or three weeks thereafter phoned my sister-in-law Zora, asking her why are we accusing her of my brother's murder.

MR VALLY: And what was the basis for her allegation?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: I don't know.

MR VALLY: Did your family make any statements in the press about this issue?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, not at all.

MR VALLY: So were you people surprised at this?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: We were very, very surprised as to why she had phoned my sister-in-law making that claim that we are accusing Mrs Winnie Mandela of having a hand in the murder of my brother.

MR VALLY: Was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela a guest at times, a dinner guest or visitor to your deceased brother's house?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: Yes, on a regular basis I understand, on Friday evening ... (tape ends)

MR VALLY: ... go visit your deceased brother's widow?

EBRAHIM ASVAT: No, after the day of the murder, that is the last time Mrs Mandela ever came to our home.

MR VALLY: After the funeral did she come to the home?