Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR NODADA: Can you give us an estimation of the number of people who were inside this hall, this auditorium, at the time you arrived?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: It was about ten people.

MR NODADA: Does that include people who were in the rooms inside the auditorium where apparently money was being kept and counted?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes, that is so.

MR NODADA: Were you the last people to enter this hall when in your observation or were there any other people who subsequently entered after you had got inside?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: There were people going in and out.  We would not know whether it was clerks because you found those people there.

MR NODADA: Were they mostly men or mostly women or women only or men only?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: There were men there were also females.

MR NODADA: And those who were in the auditorium, what did they appear to be doing there?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: They were just there doing nothing really.

MR NODADA: Were they standing or milling around or sitting?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: There were those who were sitting down and those who were moving up and down, in and out.

MR NODADA: Was it quiet in this room like it is in this hall?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: There was music, not loud but quite soft.

MR NODADA: Music from where?  You mean people singing live or music from a radio or some CD's played, what music was this?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I noted a speaker, I could not determine where the music was coming from actually.

MR NODADA: Was it loud music or soft music?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: It was soft music.

MR NODADA: Alright, before you were shot at, did you see anybody being shot?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No, I did not see anybody.

MR NODADA: Did you hear anybody making an exclamation about the shooting?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No I heard nobody.

MR NODADA: Did you see anybody carrying a firearm or people carrying firearms before you heard the first shot?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I saw nobody.

MR NODADA: Now when you heard the first shot or the first two shots that appeared to be following in close succession.  Where was Sergeant Pama who was on duty with you?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I ask the question to be repeated please.

MR NODADA: I want to know where Sergeant Pama was when you heard the first shot, do you know?  Did you see him where he was?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I only turned round when I heard two shots.  When he drew his pistol out because I saw that we're being shot at, there were shots from behind them and then I saw this person with the khaki cap wearing an overjacket which was khaki and striped pair of trousers.  I did not see Pama.

INTERPRETER: By the way just to correct, I think he may have meant him drawing out a gun, not Pama.

MR NODADA: Yes.  So you when you said, you said when you drew out your pistol, not when he drew out a pistol?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: At the time two shots were ringing out, I turned about and I realised that we're being shot at, I drew my own gun and then I heard other shots from behind me and then I saw this vaguely wearing this cap, wearing this khaki jacket and these pair of trousers that is striped.

MR NODADA: Did you see any policemen or security officer shooting in that auditorium?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I did not see anybody.

MR NODADA: Before there was this shooting, had there been any warning or announcement about the presence of people who were there on a certain mission like to get the money or to repossess the money?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No, nobody like that was there.

MR NODADA: In other words this shooting just happened all of a sudden without any premonition?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: That is so yes.

MR NODADA: Does that also mean that you didn't hear anybody directing that you people should lie down and so on and so on?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No, I heard no one.

MR NODADA: Did you ever at any stage enter the room where money was counted?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No, I did not go in there.

MR NODADA: Do I understand you to mean that you never saw any money there or any money container?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes, that is so.

MR NODADA: Alright, what injuries did you sustain on this day?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I was hit three times in my legs, one leg was broken.

MR NODADA: And where did you receive treatment for those injuries?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: At St Dominique's here in East London.

MR NODADA: For how long were you detained at the hospital?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I spent about 28 days.

MR NODADA: Have you fully recovered from those injuries?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I have not properly recovered so much so I'm talking about more sick leaves at work.

MR NODADA: Now that bullets that penetrated you leg did they go through the body or are there any of them that are still in your body?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Two went through and the third was taken out here in St Dominique's East London.

MR NODADA: Right let's go back to the auditorium.  When you regained consciousness, did you see Mr Pama again?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes that is so.

MR NODADA: Where was he when you saw him?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I saw him lying on his back on his top was Mr Mankumba.

MR NODADA: How far were they from you?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: They were about where the interpreters are sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: Eight to ten paces.

MR NODADA: And from the scene of this incident you were all removed to hospital?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I was the first to be removed.  When I tried to move I noticed that this leg was broken and I requested one security guard to take me on his back to the van.  Others followed after me.

MR NODADA: Apart from the three of you that is Mr Pama, yourself and Mr Makumba, were there any other people who were injured on this day that you know of?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No, I know of no other person?

MR NODADA: And you never heard that any of the students or university clerks who were involved in the counting of the money and keeping of money were ever injured on this day?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: That is so, I never heard anything.

MR NODADA: That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NTONGA

MR NTONGA: Mr Sandla, when you entered the auditorium in company of Mr Pama where were you in relation to him when you entered the auditorium and talked to a security guard asking for direction?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: If I can compare within this hall we were at the right side at the top.

MR NTONGA: Is that where yourself, Mr Pama and the other gentleman ...[inaudible] were asking directions from Mr Mankumba - security?  Is that the place you are talking about?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes that is so.

MR NTONGA: Whilst talking to the security did you see any people entering the auditorium?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No, I did not see anybody.

MR NTONGA: Whilst still talking to the security asking for direction did you see any people going around a pillar, three or to four gentlemen?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: No, I did not see them except those people who were moving up and down, in and out of the hall.

MR NTONGA: Are you saying to this Commission that at the time the shooting started you were no longer in the same place with Mr Pama and the late gentleman, Mr Mkizwayo, sorry Mr Makumba.

MR LAX: Sorry, what do you mean are you saying that you were no longer in the same room?  Rather put the question a bit more fairly to him, really.

MR NTONGA: At the time the shooting started, you yourself were not standing in the same place asking for direction from Mr Mankumba with Mr Pama?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes that is so.

MR NTONGA: At what stage did you leave their company when Mr Pama was still asking for directions?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: After he had told us that he's working here and that the duty is to guard the money.

MR NTONGA: Had he at that stage given you directions to where you're supposed to go and where the money was being counted, when you left Mr Pama and the late gentleman?