Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

MR VISSER: Now, what did, can you remember what Ngo did?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I do not remember.

MR VISSER: All right.  In your evidence here today you mention the following names, Ngo, Mafisa, am I right, M A F I S A, Motsamai and Molefe.  Is that correct?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Apart now from the others that you have mentioned.  Now, are you quite sure about your facts?  Who is Mafisa?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Mafisa is a certain policeman who was in the kitchen who was insulting us, he was insulting us with terrible insults.  I just, I remember him through his insults.

MR VISSER: And was he a member of the security branch?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, he was a member of the security branch, because he was with them.

MR VISSER: All right.  Now, what must we make of the difference between what you have placed on affidavit and what you have told us today?  Must we lump them all together?  Is that what you want us to do and say all of them were there and did what you today told us that they did?  Is that what you want us to do?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I am saying there were other policemen in the kitchen.  Some I do not know their names.

MR VISSER: I would put to you that both Erasmus and Mamome will deny that they took part in any assault on you or that they witnessed any assault on you or any or your sisters in their presence.  Do you want to comment on that?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Well, fine, if they refuse, fine, but I saw them assaulting me.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Incidentally, Kopi is one of the persons for whom I appear and he, in fact, confirms your evidence.  Kopi can tell the Committee, if he is asked to do so, that he was present and he was, in fact, one of the persons who interrogated people in that group, but he says that he never saw anybody assault anyone in his presence either.  I know that you did not implicate him, but he says he never saw any assaults on any of you.  I just want to put it to you.  If you want to make a comment about it you are welcome.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: It is fine if he did not see the assault, fine, I saw Kopi at Fountain.

MR VISSER: Just one last person that I want to attempt to get clarity on.  The person that you refer to as Molefe, could that be a reference, perhaps, to a person by the name of Mmelesi, M M E L E S I?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Molefe and Mmelesi are two different people.

MR VISSER: You see, what is, becomes apparent, and I want to ask you this as a question is didn't you and your sister discuss with each other in detail what your evidence was going to be and who you were going to come and implicate here and I will tell you why I am putting this to you.  It is because your sister, Mildred, implicated or mentioned the name Molefe, Constable Molefe, in paragraph five of her affidavit.  You did not in your affidavit, but you now mention her, him in your evidence.  Is that because you and your sister spoke about this incident?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Molefe was present in the kitchen, I forgot his name.  He was present in the kitchen at that time.

MR VISSER: And who reminded you of his name?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I remembered his name when I saw him.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Where did you see him?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I saw him here.

MR VISSER: Oh, was he here this morning?  No, please, this is not a laughing matter, was he here this morning?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I saw him, Sir.  He was here.

MR VISSER: Do you still see him as you are sitting there?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Well, would you please do us a favour and point him out so that we can know what you, who you are talking about.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Right there.

MR VISSER: Is that the person, the person now standing up?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, let the record show that she has identified Mr Morakile, M O R A K I L E.
	Now, that you have done that, let me see what he says about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, is he a policeman?  You said Mr.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, he is one of the persons for whom I appear and he is also a policeman.  Will you bear with me a moment, I was not aware that he is being implicated or referred to.
	Well, are you saying that he did anything to you, Mr Morakile?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: He did not do anything to me, I just know him.

MR VISSER: Well, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Is he to be added to the list of people we were given whom you appeared for?  Oh, he is not, so you do not appear for him?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: No, he is on the list, Mr Chairman, I have appeared for him at all times. If he is not on the list I would be very surprised.  He is number nine.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is he also known as Molefe?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I was looking at the wrong list.

MR VISSER: (...Indistinct) but I can tell you now that he is not down as Molefe.
	Is your name Molefe?  The answer is negative.  
	Now, ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am asking you this question, because when the witness pointed him out a section of the audience said also indicated that he is Molefe.

MR VISSER: Well, I did not notice that.  I am not sure whether this is going to complicate, confuse issues now, but I have made a blanket, stated a blanket proposition of denial to all the witnesses.  I am hoping that we do not have to recall everybody who has referred to a Molefe, because I certainly did not tie it up with ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: The fact is that she said he did nothing.

MR VISSER: But I am compelled to put one thing to you as a fact and that is that Morakile was not in Bloemfontein at the time.  He was, in fact, stationed as a member of the Stock Theft Unit at Weppener, so you could not have seen him, whatever you want to call him, you could not have seen him in April 1986 in Bloemfontein.  He was not working here.  What do you say to that?  Will you concede that you might have made a mistake?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Are you talking to me, Sir?

MR VISSER: (...Indistinct) to you, I am telling you that he was not working in Bloemfontein, he was ... (intervention).

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: If it is a mistake, I do not know, but he is identical to him.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR STANDER: We have no questions, Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MEMANI

ADV MEMANI: Now, Ms Lekitlane, your sister said the other name of Morakile is Davu, no, the other name of Molefe is Davu.  Did you hear that?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: Do you agree that Molefe is Davu or do you not know that name?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: These people were so many I mixed, we mixed their names.  I do not know their names properly, I know them when I see them.  I do not know whether Davu is Molefe.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that Davu is short for David and David's surname is Morakile.  Do you have any comment on that?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I do not know, but he is identical to Molefe.

MR VISSER: For the record, Mr Chairman, Mr Morakile has just signalled to me across the room that he is, in fact, known as Davu.

ADV MEMANI: It follows, therefore, that you identified the right person, is it not?
MR VISSER OBJECTS

MR VISSER: Surely, Mr Chairman, that must be argument.  How does she know, I mean that is the whole point.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we have had it put and, presumably, evidence will be led and can be led that he was not there at the time.  So, I do not see how you can put it that she has identified the right person.

ADV MEMANI: I will deal with that in due course, my Lord.
	Now, at the time when you were arrested, did you know that Ngo was a member of the security branch?