Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

MR BOOYENS: Okay.  Were you in Jeffrey's Bay right from - well, you came back with the deceased and did you start dealing with the deceased the very next day or two days later, what is the position?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It was not too long a time after we'd come back then we continued with the investigation.

MR BOOYENS: That's what I'm asking you, how is not too long a time?  Was it the next day, two days later, a week later, two weeks later, that's what I want to know.

GINOTRY DANSTER: A long while.

MR BOOYENS: A long while?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I cannot remember the exact time that elapsed.

MR BOOYENS: But the next time you saw the deceased he was in Jeffrey's Bay?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Not in Humansdorp?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I saw him in Jeffrey's Bay.

MR BOOYENS: Are you aware that according to the documentation, he was detained for - I think it would be correct if I say, for about two weeks in Humansdorp before being transferred to Jeffrey's Bay?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I heard that information here.

MR BOOYENS: Do you dispute it?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

MR BOOYENS: So it very well be that for two weeks you nothing to do with the deceased, the two weeks when he was at Humansdorp?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is not so.

MR BOOYENS: So you did question him at Humansdorp?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

MR BOOYENS: You say you don't dispute that he could have been at Humansdorp for two weeks, you say you didn't question him, then I say: "Was he taken to Jeffrey's Bay and then taken back to Humansdorp"?, what are you trying to say to me?

GINOTRY DANSTER: When I dealt with Sizwe he was in Jeffrey's Bay.

MR BOOYENS: Was detained in Jeffrey's Bay as well yes, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And what I'm saying to you is that the records clearly show and there is no imaginable reason, that he was - in fact we've got - the very first entry that we've got indicates that he was at Humansdorp on the - he was detained at Humansdorp on the 10th of July, it's an entry in a Humansdorp occurrence book.
	We have yesterday dealt with the warrants and from the warrants it's apparent - the history from the warrants, that he was initially detained in Humansdorp and then he was transferred to Jeffrey's Bay and nobody ever challenged that.  I'm saying to you that he was at Humansdorp for two weeks, are you disputing that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I can't dispute it because it's on the documents.

MR BOOYENS: That's right.  Then I'm saying to you, after he was brought from Bloemfontein he was detained at Humansdorp for two weeks, for the first two weeks you obviously had nothing to do with him.  Is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I thought I had told you, the people that had spent more time with Sizwe, they were with him for plus minus 12 weeks, the people I've mentioned already.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we're not making much progress, please.  The question is very simple, whilst he was detained in Humansdorp you had nothing to do with him, that's correct isn't it?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I never interrogated him in Humansdorp.

CHAIRPERSON: It was only after he was brought to Jeffrey's Bay that you got involved?

GINOTRY DANSTER: At Jeffrey's Bay.

ADV GCABASHE: So again, just for clarity, from the time that you questioned him in Jeffrey's Bay, you are saying you had something to do with him for about 12 weeks?  Is that right or wrong?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, plus minus 12 weeks.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Danster, - in fact just to clarity this beyond any doubt, on the - at page 183, it seems that Mr Sizwe Kondile was admitted to the cells and I'm informed - although that doesn't appear from here that this is indeed the Jeffrey's Bay occurrence book, he was admitted to  - and according to the warrants he was admitted to Jeffrey's Bay on the 24th day of July.  So could it be that you started dealing with him on the 24th day of July or shortly after that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After he was in Jeffrey's Bay.

MR BOOYENS: Were you aware that according to the Bloemfontein people, he had already given certain information to them?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was never told that.

MR BOOYENS: Mr du Plessis never told you that he had given Bloemfontein certain information.

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, he did not give me such a report, we were just given orders and the questions that we were to ask him and the people that he had to identify.

MR BOOYENS: If you talk about people that he had to identify those of photo identifications, is that correct? - ...[indistinct] in the photo album is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What was the nature of the questions you had to ask him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He was asked who was in Lesotho, what they were doing there.

MR BOOYENS: Did he answer that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After intensive interrogation he gave us the information.

MR BOOYENS: Now let's deal with this intensive interrogation, I don't exactly understand what happened there.  You and Mr Raath initially started questioning him at Jeffrey's Bay, was that now only the two of you?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct, we were given orders.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, by Mr du Plessis you say.  And you were asking questions and the deceased was asked to write down the answers, correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now, did the deceased refuse to answer your questions?  Did he refuse to write anything?

MR ROUX: Sorry Mr Chairman, if he could just say in what period he's talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR BOOYENS: I asked him the initial period Mr Chairman, I don't think you can get any closer than that, with respect.

GINOTRY DANSTER: He gave us some information, however it was not the kind of information that the Captain wanted.

MR BOOYENS: Did you know that?  Did you know it wasn't the kind of information the Captain wanted?

GINOTRY DANSTER: The Captain told us after he'd read the paper, that it's not the kind of information that he required.

MR BOOYENS: Did you read the papers, the answers that Mr Kondile supplied?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And on a question as to who was in Lesotho, did he write down certain names?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes

MR BOOYENS: And as to what he was doing - I'm talking about the initial period before du Plessis was dissatisfied - let's not have any unclarity about this, and as to a question about they were doing, did he say they were getting training and they were getting political education and that type of thing?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He would not give us direct answers.

MR BOOYENS: Give me an example of the indirect answers he gave, you read the papers.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Captain du Plessis wanted to know where the safe houses are, where propaganda machine was made, where the weapons were hidden, who was training the people within South Africa.

MR BOOYENS: Well, your answer was he wasn't giving you direct answers, now I want to  - but he wasn't apparently also not refusing to give you answers so he must have been giving you some indirect answers, what sort of answers did he give?  Give me an example so I can understand what you're talking about.

GINOTRY DANSTER: He told us who was involved in training the people within the country and outside the country, who was training them - also educating them politically.

MR BOOYENS: And did he tell you where the safe houses were?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, after he was intensively interrogated.

MR BOOYENS: So did he refuse to tell you where the safe houses were initially? - you and ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did he refuse to tell you where the arms caches were?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you report to du Plessis that the man was refusing to co-operate? - because he was.

GINOTRY DANSTER: We reported this when the Captain arrived.

MR BOOYENS: How long was it before you started at Jeffrey's Bay that this assault that you've told us about took place?