Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, I was asked to do that.

MR VALLY: So you personally put drops of Anthrax onto these cigarettes?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, I was given a packet of Camel cigarettes, and I was requested to drop some of the drops onto the filter of the cigarettes.

MR VALLY: And what would it have - what would have happened to the person who smoked these cigarettes?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, it's difficult to speculate, but I can imagine that it might have fatal results.

MR VALLY: Were you aware of that at the time you did it?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Were you aware of who it was intended for?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, once again this was put to me that it was going to be used to test some of the filters that Dr Lourens was developing at Protechnic.

MR VALLY: Surely you didn't believe that, I mean you don't test the filter by putting Anthrax on the cigarette?

MIKE ODENDAL: Perhaps I did not believe it, but I had my own thoughts about the situation.

MR VALLY: Well, let's go on.  Did you do experiments with the mixing of chocolate with Anthrax?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: Did you, directly under the items with cigarettes and Anthrax, it says "koffie, sjokolade" and Anthrax.  Did you do that mixture as well?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, I only provided the toxin to Dr Immelman, and what he did with the toxin, he did not tell me, he did not inform me.

MR VALLY: Are there any other items on this "verkope" list that - firstly, I want to know if you prepared the toxins, and secondly, I want to know if you were responsible for the final product, for example the cigarettes, or the peppermint chocolate with Anthrax.  But, firstly, let's see, regarding the shopping list, which toxins were you personally responsible for producing?  If you start on the first page, 19th of March '89 and move downwards.

MIKE ODENDAL: There's one, the 9th of June '89, "Spore en brief".  Those were Anthrax spores and they were supposedly put onto the glue part of the envelope.

MR VALLY: So, did you prepare the envelope?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, I did not prepare the envelope, but I provided the spores.

MR VALLY: Were you aware what they were going to be for?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: Where you aware whether it could be done or not, whether spores could be put onto the gum of an envelope?

MIKE ODENDAL: I suppose it could be done, but I don't think it's a very good idea to immobilise or the incapacitate someone, because I doubt whether it will be effective.

MR VALLY: We're talking kill.  Will it kill someone?

MIKE ODENDAL: I've got my doubts, but strictly speaking, it could happen.

MR VALLY: Depending on the quantity?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, and depending on many factors.

MR VALLY: Would it be detectable?

MIKE ODENDAL: I don't think so, no.

MR VALLY: Let's go on.  What else on the first page?

MIKE ODENDAL: "Bierblik Botsilium", I produced the Botsilium toxin, but how it got into the beer tin, I won't know.

MR VALLY: Let's go on.

MIKE ODENDAL: And the same with the following one.

MR VALLY: Right.

MIKE ODENDAL: And then with the "suiker en Salmonella".

MR VALLY: What did you do there?

MIKE ODENDAL: I only supplied the Salmonella.

MR VALLY: Salmonella, let's briefly talk about.  What effect does it have on a person?

MIKE ODENDAL: It causes a nausea, and gastro enteritis.

MR VALLY: Let's go on.  The ...(indistinct)

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: You've mentioned the cholera at the top of the second page, 16 bottles, let's go on.

MIKE ODENDAL: The cigarettes, yes, I did that.

MR VALLY: Right, that's cigarettes at (b) with Anthrax.  You say five, volume - five, was it five cigarettes, five packets, five cartons?

MIKE ODENDAL: I'm not sure, I think it was, if I remember correctly, it was one cigarette per packet and it was five packets.

MR VALLY: Five different packets?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Let's go on.  The coffee, "sjokolade", were you responsible for both, or just the botulism?

MIKE ODENDAL: Just the botulism, and just the Anthrax, and not to inoculate the chocolate.

MR VALLY: Let's go one.

MIKE ODENDAL: Okay, the cholera, and the Brucella Maletenses.

MR VALLY: Well, let's talk about that.  That's the third last item at the bottom.

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, that's also an important ...(indistinct).

MR VALLY: Tell us what effect it has on human beings.

MIKE ODENDAL: That causes flu-like symptoms which I would say, it could be quite severe, and it could have long lasting effects.  So, it's not lethal, it can only incapacitate from that ingested.

MR VALLY: Do you know what's relapsing fever?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Does it cause chronic relapsing fever?

MIKE ODENDAL: It actually causes multi fever, because relapsing fever is Brucella Abortus.

MR VALLY: I see, is that in the list as well?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, Abortus is not in the list.

MR VALLY: Did you produce it?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: You didn't produce it.

MIKE ODENDAL: Maletenses is one step more pathogenic that Abortus.

MR VALLY: I see, and when you say the fever you described, does it incapacitate a person for the rest of their lives?

MIKE ODENDAL: Not necessarily.

MR VALLY: For how long?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, let's say you get quite severe fever symptoms, muscle pains, joint pains, and then that can incapacitate you for - it's difficult to say, for a couple of days.

MR VALLY: And does it recur?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, it can recur.

MR VALLY: For how many years?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, this is difficult to say, but for many years, 10 years, 5 years, 10 years.

MR VALLY: And to call it flu-like symptoms is to underplay it?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, it's sever flu-like symptoms.

MR VALLY: I means doesn't it totally incapacitate you, that period, when it recurs?

MIKE ODENDAL: I've been fortunate enough not to contract this disease, but I ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Surely you read about it?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, but from the people that have had it, it's not a disease that I'd like to get.

MR VALLY: So you could take a healthy person, and they would be rendered ...(intervention)

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, you can make them quite ill.

MR VALLY: For a long, long time.  What does the literature say one it?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, you get acute and you get chronic cases.

MR VALLY: Let's talk acute.

MIKE ODENDAL: Acute for a couple of days,

MR VALLY: Right.

MIKE ODENDAL: And it can pass.

MR VALLY: And chronic?

MIKE ODENDAL: With treatment.

MR VALLY: Yes.

MIKE ODENDAL: Chronic, it'll come back, you treat it, it'll come back.

MR VALLY: For how many years?

MIKE ODENDAL: At least ten years.

MR VALLY: And this was the more serious type of Maletenses?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, that's correct.

MR VALLY: Which would probably induce the chronic symptoms you described?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now, the quantity you got there, 1 by 50, how much are we talking about?

MIKE ODENDAL: If I remember correctly, that must be 15ml.

MR VALLY: Per bottle?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, that was only one bottle, and that was all.

MR VALLY: So, one bottle of 50.  And how would you - how would this be transmitted to people?

MIKE ODENDAL: Orally.

MR VALLY: Can you introduce it into the drinking water?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Or milk?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Or alcohol?

MIKE ODENDAL: We didn't do any test on that, so I can't say alcohol, but it's a possibility.

MR VALLY: And 50ml will affect how many people?

MIKE ODENDAL: That is difficult to say.

MR VALLY: Usually these items, you use millilitres to in fact affect people, very minute amounts.

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, we normally cultivated, these organisms to at least 10 to the power of 8 organisms per millilitre.  So, if you had to reconstitute it and if you freeze-dried, say for instance, 50ml and you can reconstitute it with less volume, and then your concentration will be a bit higher.  So you can increase your concentration slightly, but it can strictly speaking, it can make a lot of people sick.