Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

MR CHASKALSON: Can I quickly refer you to TRC 52, it's list that has come to be known as a "verkope" list.  I understand this is a 1989 list and that you were not in the loop at this stage.  I just want to confirm the type of substances that we are talking about, that you had informed General Knobel of at an earlier stage.  Are you telling us that at some or other stage you informed the General about individual murder weapons, for instance poison in a liquid or poison in chocolates or something of that effect?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Mr Chairman yes, we might have discussed it.  I cannot say which one of these products or whatever.  What I remember we did discuss was the following:  We did discuss targeting individuals and we did discuss the fact that I was concerned that the individuals targeted should be legitimate targets seeing that the scientist, myself and the scientists were not told who the targets were.
 So we had no option of thinking for ourselves, it was a prisoner or not or whatever and this was apparently to safeguard us.  So the fact the matter was yes, if we discussed the targets it must have been going without saying that we did discuss the chemical methods of taking them out, and it was in his presence.

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you Dr Goosen, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Chaskalson.  Cross-examination, Mr Cilliers, are you going to start?

MR CILLIERS: Mr Chairman, I've made a request to Mr Vally and it's something he had to discuss with you.  We are in the situation, General Neethling came this morning, he is available, he's been available since nine.
 His flight back, because of special flight arrangements which have been made for him, he is to leave a four because he has to be at the airport at a quarter to five and I've requested Mr Vally whether we can't continue with General Neethling so that we can ensure that he will be finished by four otherwise there won't be an opportunity to put questions to him.  So I want to ask you to let Dr Goosen stand down so that we can hear Neethling's evidence.

MR POLSEN: Sorry, may I ask what does my learned friend envisage because I have a difficulty, I have to leave undoubtedly tonight at seven o'clock.  Will we finish with Dr Goosen today?  Has he got long cross-examination?  What is his ...[intervention]

MR CILLIERS: I am convinced that we can do Dr Goosen and Dr Neethling today, we can finish them today.  Like during the previous occasions if we can sit later than 4 o'clock.  The only reason why I'm putting the request is Dr Goosen is still available after four and General Neethling not.  I foresee that we will easily finish also with Goosen and Neethling today.

MR POLSEN: Provided we don't start at 4 o'clock and end at a quarter to seven because I have to leave early, there's no way that I will be able to stay.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't enjoy sitting late myself Mr Polsen but sometimes it happens.  But you know, we will try and everybody here is listening.  Mr Chaskalson or Mr Vally, do you have any...?

MR CHASKALSON: I don't have any major objection to this.  We will abide with whatever your ruling is though.  The only other point that we would like to just note is that at some stage today we will need to squeeze in the remains of a legal argument.  Now may be an appropriate stage before lunch, alternatively we would be ready to begin with the General now.  I don't ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, Mr Chaskalson, you possibly want to arrange during lunch with your learned friends as to when you think that legal things must come.  We have taken as much evidence as we want to take on the non-contentious issues.  If we can then stand down the present witness subject to his arrangements.
 And may I just emphasize that all the parties must time themselves.  We have got, as I understand, two witnesses who we want to take.  I would say there are two more witnesses who I would prefer we should take today rather than one because I do not know what tomorrow brings.  And therefore we should pace ourselves such that by 6 o'clock we have done everything that we need to do and that includes calling two more witnesses and cross-examining them. 
WITNESS STANDS DOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Will you call your next witness Mr Chaskalson?

MR CHASKALSON: The Commission calls General Lothar Neethling and Mr Vally will take over the examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally are you ready?
Mr Neethling welcome to these proceedings.  Before you testify I will ask Advocate Potgieter to swear you in.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: May I just mention it for the record again General Neethling that you are quite welcome to testify and express yourself in the language you are best comfortable with.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If you would like to follow the testimony and you are acquainted with Afrikaans should General Neethling decide to testify in Afrikaans, we have facilities which have simultaneous translations.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Gen Neethling, can you briefly tell us what are your qualifications?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Mr Chairman, I am a scientist.  I have two doctorate degrees in chemistry and related physiological biological chemistry and I regard myself as a person with a very wide range of interests regarding chemistry and electrical chemistry.

MR VALLY: This is precisely the area of involvement of Delta G and to an extent RRL, Roodeplaat Research Laboratories.  Firstly I'd like to know if you had any contact with anyone at RRL?

LOTHAR NEETHLING: Yes, let's start with RRL.  RRL, I heard Dr Goosen I visited them twice, I visited them three times, and it was about the fact that I was the Head of the South African Police Dog School.  This Police Dog School had a very big problem and they had one big problem that was to trace explosives.

MR VALLY: Gen Neethling, I don't want to know about RTO, Roodepoort Teel Ondernemings, I want to know specifically about the biological facility RRL.

LOTHAR NEETHLING: I visited RRL once.  It was one of the three visits I have mentioned.  The other visits were to the dog unit.  The only visit I paid to the laboratory described by Dr Goosen was in 1993.  I was requested to investigate - I was retired at that stage, I'm still a consultant, I do it on a consulting basis and there was the case of a person who was injected with a specific substance in a town in Northern Transvaal with very detrimental consequences.  The court case resulted and they said he was injected with the wrong material which led to impotence.  This led to the situation that that sample I received, I had to investigate that and I had to present a report on that.  I have the report here and all the details.  I had a discussion with two of the scientists there, there's two Veterinary Surgeons who were involved in analysing that.  I don't know how they did they.  I obtained the result, I was satisfied and the defence was satisfied.

MR VALLY: We will come back to RRL in a while, but just on that issue who were you consultant to, was it a private person or Government.