Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

MR KAHANOVITZ: The plan was that Hardien was hired to place the limpet mine in the hall, where the Kewtown Youth would be meeting?  He would be paid an amount of R30 000-00 which was regarded as justifiable because the crime which was to be committed, was of the most serious possible nature.  If the plan had been succeeded and he was arrested, he would almost certainly have been sentenced to death?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I reject that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The limpet mine was fitted with a remote control so that the CCB could be certain that it would explode at a precise time, namely when the intended victims were in the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I reject that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Hardien went into the hall, he saw that the intended targets were indeed present, he in fact spoke to Mr Peter Williams and he came out to inform you that this was the case, that the targets were in the hall.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is my evidence.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The remote control malfunctioned and caused a time delay, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Of approximately one minute.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Because of this, the bomb exploded later than had been intended?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I reject that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: At the time the bomb exploded, it just so happened that the intended targets had fortunately left the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I reject that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It was only for this reason that they were not killed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is not so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: When the bomb exploded, at 20H35, the building was lit up, there were cars in the parking lot, there were two meetings taking place, certain members of the Kewtown Youth were still in the building and it was purely a miracle that no one was killed or seriously injured?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already testified that at the time of the explosion of the bomb, there were no vehicles or persons in my opinion, no vehicles in the parking area and no persons in the vicinity.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Because the objects of the plan were not realised, Isgak Hardien was not paid the sum of R30 000-00 but a reduced sum of R18 000-00?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I reject that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I am also going to put it to you that the reason why there are so many inconsistencies between the various statements of the people who were involved in this project, is because the version which you and your co-conspirators now seek to put forward, is clearly a subsequent fabrication?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I reject that too.

MR KAHANOVITZ: A further feature pointing to your version being a subsequent fabrication is that the version that you have invented is quite illogical and defies common sense.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I reject that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The purported object of your attack is beyond the realms of belief, Gen Webb and Col Verster would never have approved a plan to frighten the terrorists from committing further acts of terrorism by causing damage to a building in which they habitually meet?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I reject that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I am putting it to you also that a sophisticated operation like the CCB, would never risk utilising the machinery of the State to commit an act - I will wait for you to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your last sentence, Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I am putting it to you that a sophisticated operation like the CCB, would never utilise, never risk utilising the machinery of the State to commit an act of such grave risks and consequences for the government of South Africa, in return for so little gain.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not agree with you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I am putting it to you that the plan had merely been to sabotage the building, with no risk of injury, coupled with a plan to limit the risk of detection, then in the first place, Mr Hardien's services would never have been required?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not agree with you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In the second place, the explosives would have been placed and detonated in the dead of night, when no one was around and not at approximately half past eight in the evening?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I also do not agree with that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, I want to deal with certain other people who were targeted by Region 6 of the CCB and I want to know whether you were aware that Region 6 of the CCB or the CCB in general, was working on projects to cause harm to the following persons.
	What I have done here is, I have looked at the statements of your co-applicants and, in which they refer to certain names and certain people that they say they were working on.  Now, Frank Chikane, are you aware that Region 6 of the CCB was working on him?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Roland White?  You have already testified that you recall the incident where your colleagues were questioned by the police while they were monitoring Mr White?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: If that is Roland White, then I know of him.  In so far that I know, Ferdi and Calla Botha were questioned by the SAP, that is all I know about it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Except, for some reason best known to the CCB, they seem to think that his name was Bruce White?
	I assume that you are aware that Region 6 together with a number of other CCB Regions, was involved in a project directed towards the first democratic elections in Namibia?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I know that members, that members of Region 6 were told to become involved in South West, Namibia, and I am also arrest that Namibia had a Region on its own.  That is all I can tell you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Mr Wouter Basson testified that a special meeting was called where it was announced that various Regions were going to collaborate because of the importance of the CCB's activities in relation to the forthcoming Namibian election.  Did you attend that meeting?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We had a normal cell meeting where we were told that some of our aware members would become involved in projects in South West, Namibia, if that was the meeting to which he refers to, then I know of it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Were you aware that one or more members of Region 6 were working on a project concerning Hidipo Hamutenya?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I was not aware of that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Anton Lubowski?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I am not aware of a project on Anton Lubowski.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How can you possibly not have been aware of a project concerning Anton Lubowski?  You yourself, were tasked to monitor Lubowski's activities while he was in the Republic of South Africa.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have never denied that.  But you are insinuating a project to kill him?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, what was the purpose of your monitoring?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I received instructions, I monitored him and I fed back the information.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So now the CCB is an intelligence gathering organisation?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: If you want to state it as such in that case, then I regard it as such.  As in the monkey incident, I received an instruction which I executed therefore I did not regard it as totally unnatural.

MR KAHANOVITZ: There was an inquest held in Namibia into the death of Adv Lubowski, the Judge at the end of that inquest found that Lubowski had been murdered as a consequence of a conspiracy which had been formulated by amongst others the Civilian Co-operation Bureau, are you aware of that finding?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I am aware of that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you were named as one of the co-conspirators in that finding, are you aware of that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is it your opinion that that finding was wrong?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I reject that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, you will go so far as to say that Region 6 of the CCB was not involved in the assassination of Adv Lubowski?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: As far as I know, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What does "as far as I know", mean?  Are you conceding that it is possible, but you are saying it might have happened, but I don't really know, is that your version?