Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: That's correct, I walked across from my house to the scene where it happened, after I dropped Mr van Zyl them off at the airport, when I returned.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So therefore you would have been in a position to see if there were cars in the parking lot, you were standing there.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, you cannot see from the front if there were cars at the back.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Oh you now claim you were at the front only, you didn't go round the back?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I never said I went to the back, I'm talking when I returned from the airport after I'd dropped Slang them off.  I went to where all the other people were standing and that's where the wall was damaged.  I did not go and look at the back of the building.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now Mr Alexander also says the following
"I know Gakkie Hardien, he was aware of the fact that I used an Isuzu.  If he, before or during the explosion, was close to the building he would have realised that I was inside the building."

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not even know that he had an Isuzu, I knew he drove a Valiant.  I do not know anything about an Isuzu bakkie, because the Valiant was his father's car.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Tell me, on your version you checked only the back parking lot, you didn't check to see if there were any cars parked next to the front entrance?  That's been your evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Where?  There's not a place where cars can park next to the building.

MR KAHANOVITZ: They can pull up onto the side of the road and park on the pavement.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, a car can park on the pavement, but I did not see any cars parked on the pavement.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes but you didn't check to see if there were any before you exploded the bomb.  Mr van Zyl says so.  Do you agree with him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, let us leave us, let us just talk about myself.  When all the cars left the parking lot I told him: "There the meeting's over, everybody has left."

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien, even on your own version up to now, not once have you ever mentioned that you went to see if there were any cars parked at the front entrance of the building, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, I never said that I went to go and look for cars in the front of the building.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Exactly.  So even on your own version, even if the back entrance was empty, on your version there could have been cars parked at the front entrance, correct?  You wouldn't have known.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I've never disputed that, that there were cars parked in front.  They never asked me if there were cars parked in front.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So if there's been a car parked at the front entrance ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: Then I would have seen it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How could you have seen it from the back, can you see through walls?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, the time when I went to Mr Williams or met Mr Williams, the bakkie or the cars, whatever it was, I would have seen there was a bakkie standing there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, you might not necessarily have seen one because it was night and if a car was parked on the pavement, why do you say you would have seen it?  And as far as I can recall, at a corner there's a, Springbok Road is at a corner, it's not just a question of looking out the door and having a panoramic view of the whole of Springbok Street.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, I'm talking about the fact that the car could have been standing on the sidewalk or pavement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but it depends where the car was, whether it's on the left-hand side or the right-hand side.  Did you go and look in the street?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Sir, I did not go into the street, I went to go and look when I saw Mr Pietie.  If there were cars, there were cars, I'm not going to dispute that there were not cars or that there were cars.

MR LAX: You see that's why earlier I asked you which way did you walk round the building, in anticipation of this kind of question.

ISGAK HARDIEN: It's when I went to go and see Mr Williams?

MR LAX: You walked from the back of the building round to the front, through the front entrance, that's why I asked you which way did you walk, because in my own mind I was thinking well, depending on which way you walked, you'd either see if there were cars there or not.

ISGAK HARDIEN: If I come from either side I can see if there were cars or not.  Through Joseph's yard past Block 2, I would have seen them.

MR LAX: Yes.  If your attention was focused on that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, then I would have.

MR LAX: But your attention at that stage was on whether there were people in the hall.  You were going to check the hall.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: You weren't even going to check the building, you were only going to check the hall, that's been your evidence so far.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Alexander also states the following
"A few weeks after the explosion, myself, Glen Joseph and Bruce Malgas met Gakkie Hardien at a party.  He told me that he missed us, but that we had to watch his next move.  We understood that he referred to the bomb explosion."
Do you understand what he's saying?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I never said that to him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now I want to put it to you quite clearly that he says that you in effect admitted to him after the explosion that you were aware that the bomb was intended to kill them, but that you had missed and that they should therefore watch out for your next move.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I never said that to him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now I also want to put it to you that there's one thing that you and Mr Williams most definitely agree on, that you came into the hall, or the door next to the hall, whichever, you came into the building and that you were seen by Mr Williams shortly before the blast occurred, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Before the ...(intervention)?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can that, he's said it, that's what the evidence is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You agree with me that's been the evidence?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  And therefore Mr Williams would be able to tell the police that you had been there on the night of the explosion, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And some other people in the Kewtown Youth had also seen you that night in the building, correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Okay, just Mr Williams.  Okay, let's leave it at Mr Williams.  I want to put it to you that the only reason that you weren't worried about the fact that Mr Williams had seen you was because on your understanding, Mr Williams was going to be dead after the bomb had exploded and therefore you didn't need to worry about him giving evidence against you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Is that what you are saying?  I'm not saying that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm also going to put it to you that the reason why your evidence is so full of inconsistencies and lies is because you refuse to tell the truth about what your true intentions were on that night and you refuse to reveal that you were paid the sum of R18 000 by the CCB, to plant a bomb that was intended to kill the members of the Kewtown youth.  Your comment?

ISGAK HARDIEN: You are saying it, not I.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KAHANOVITZ

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Kahanovitz.  Mr Hockey, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR HOCKEY: No, thank you Mr Chairman, my questions were asked.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HOCKEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coleridge, do you have any re-examination?