Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

MR NOMPOZOLO: And an officer would be first after his name has been raised by a member of the police force that "so and so I know he has done a,b,c, go and fetch him" and that will be when that officer will be fetched?

M C NQINANA: I am not going to say yes because in my case I was called through the police radio that a person with a car should go and fetch Mr Sawuti and I don't know how the procedure was as to how to go and get a person.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you did not know, that is you people who were in the police college, you did not know who were the officers who were in support of Brigadier Gqozo and those who were in support of other organisations?

M C NQINANA: Are you taking about this particular day or are you talking about just before this incident because I was working in the college?

MR NOMPOZOLO: On that particular day you did not know who were the supporters of Brigadier Gqozo or the supporters of other organisations?

M C NQINANA: According to my own perception all the officers who were on Gqozo's side, that is my opinion and even in the hall there was a general feeling that Gqozo had a full support of the officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Why are you saying that, Sir?

M C NQINANA: My reasons are like this, our working conditions, the way we were working under the Ciskeian Government were causing me to make that conclusion.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Well what is it, just tell us, what pointed that all the officers were in support of Gqozo?

M C NQINANA: The emphasis of officers towards the NCOs and trying to the oppress the individuals.  The way that we were supposed to perform our duties towards the Africans, that showed that the officers had a full support - that Gqozo was enjoying a full support from the officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, what was it that you were told to do to the Africans which proved that the officers were in support of Gqozo, I'm still not clear?

M C NQINANA: We were performing a lot of duties, I'm not sure whether I'll be able to disclose all those duties here.  We were performing a lot of duties, I'm not sure if they are relevant to this.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Ja, can you tell us one duty, because all we want to know how do you associate the officers to be in support of Brigadier Gqozo?

M C NQINANA: We were performing duties in places like Mdabathemba where we had to prevent ANC activities.  There is a so called briefing, sometimes we would find that some of the things are not proportionate, it's things that were not right to be done on human beings.  We would be instructed not to touch a certain group of people but to do something else to a certain group of people.  Sometimes we were told to focus on ANC and leave out people like UDM.   ADM, I beg your pardon.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now would I be correct to say that what would be done by a certain unit, not by all the officers, other officers for instance were with logistics, others with finance, others with transport, others - so it won't be all the officers who were given those instructions?

M C NQINANA: My perception, if I differ with opinion from you even the behaviour would automatically differ, if I don't associate myself with a certain group of people, even the behaviour will have to change therefore the behaviour of officers was more or less the same.  That is why I'm saying that they were supporting Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would it be fair then Mr Nqinana, to level the same accusation against the warrant officers of the time then who were actually giving instructions to their juniors to say that even the warrant officers for that matter because they were giving instructions to their juniors to perform duties, to say that those warrant officers were supporting Gqozo?

M C NQINANA: There was no emphasis on the side of the warrant officers, that was only coming from the officers according to my perception.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Inspector, I am instructed that you took, that is you as a group, you with Toto and Tyali and others, you took Captain Sawuti against his will from his house?

M C NQINANA: It was myself, Tele Moleshe when we arrived at his house, we approached the house.  Moleshe knocked at the house, a young boy came and he told him to go and call Mr Sawuti and then he said he was dressing up, he was coming.  Then he later came to us and then he enquired about what was wrong and Moleshe told him that we were from the police hall, there is a meeting and we were requesting him to go to the hall.  He went back to the house to put on his clothes.  When he came back Moleshe told him that it is cold in the hall, he should go back and dress warmly because it was cold and then he went back and put something on and then he came back.  Just before he could get into the car Moleshe borrowed his firearm and then we took him, we got into the car with him and then we went to the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now if the motive of the meeting was to oust Brigadier Gqozo, why were the officers not informed of that when they were in the hall?

M C NQINANA: I am not going to say they were told or not, perhaps they were told during my absence and I don't even know why they were not told because I was not the co-ordinator there, perhaps they were told or they were not told, I do not know.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you explain if a group of people is in the hall, how is it possible that if something is discussed amongst them that other people would be aware that the peoples is this and others are not aware?

M C NQINANA: ...(indistinct)

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you explain how does it happen that if the people are in one hall and in that hall it is agreed that the purpose is to do a,b,c, how does it happen that other people are not aware of that whereas they're in the same hall?

M C NQINANA: I did not say that people were not aware, I do not understand your question.  If the people are discussing, I did not say the other people were not aware of what was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let me explain it to you.  Throughout the evidence from Nkwenkwe, from Tyali, from Mfene, throughout the evidence there is not even one person who suggested that the officers were aware that the peoples of the meeting changed to be that of overthrowing of Brigadier Gqozo.  The people who are saying that the meeting changed are those who are applying for amnesty.  Now my question is, if it had happened as you people are saying that the meeting was changed to be a meeting of overthrowing Brigadier Gqozo, how is it possible that other people who were in the hall were not aware or were not made aware of that whereas this was talked about on the mike?

M C NQINANA: Are you talking about the officers or?

MR NOMPOZOLO: The officers.

M C NQINANA: The officers did not arrive all at once.  When these freedom songs started there were only a few officers and then it became hot, perhaps it is one of the reasons why they were not aware that the situation had changed but the people who were on the ground were influenced by the utterances and by the way the people were singing and the situation changed and it became more political.  Most of the officers arrived late, that is why they could not see it that way but the NCOs who were there when the meeting started, I am sure that they were aware that there was a change.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you know of any reason why if the peoples was to overthrow Brigadier Gqozo, why was that not discussed by them by the entire meeting?  Why was it done in the form of slogans?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I do not know the reason because when this all started the meeting was about the election and there was a shift and we were told that Commissioner Nqoya wanted to see us and it later changed again to be something else about overthrowing Gqozo.  There are so many stages, at first it was education and election and it changed, I do not know the reason why there was always a shift.