Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

MR VAN RENSBURG: During your testimony you also made several times mention that especially on the date of the 6th of April that there were many people, I think you said two to three thousand people and that they were young and old, do you confirm that?

CHAIRPERSON: Girls an boys.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mostly boys and girls, yes.  Can you remember that?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes I can confirm that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay the point I'm trying to make is, would you agree that this action that was taken against the deceased to burn down this house and to kill him was not an action taken by the youth, it was an action taken by the whole village.

MR RAMASITSI: Yes but basically the youth were very much responsible.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes they might have taken the more active role but the older people were also present there on the 6th of April.

MR RAMASITSI: Yes it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay now lastly, I want to put it to you that you wilfully mislead this hearing to try to convince us that you actually committed this murder and arson because of political motive whilst it is clear from your evidence now that you actually committed it because of witchcraft.

MR RAMASITSI: Well I didn't only mention witchcraft.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, there has been evidence from the expert that throws witchcraft right into the political arena and in those circumstances, while we haven't made up or minds yet to accept that evidence or not, I think it would be fairer to point out to the witness for his comments in that fashion that you say it was for witchcraft as if it wasn't political, but maybe it was, we don't know yet.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes that is the point that I will argue at the end of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ja and then when you put a question like that to the witness, I think that one should then couch it in such terms where the ambit of the political relationship with the, or possible relationship with the witchcraft is included.  Let me try to help you here.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr..

CHAIRPERSON: You see what the proposition is from the attorney, is that you wilfully misled the Commission as to the reasons for the death of the deceased and in fact despite what the experts said, that in this area that witchcraft fell within the political arena at some time during the struggle, you actually killed him for witchcraft
activities only, not for political reasons.

MR RAMASITSI: Well it was a combination of the factors above.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I think I have no further questions to this witness.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Ramasitsi, just for clarity, can you explain to us, at what stage did your suspicions about the deceased's involvement in witchcraft arise?, was it after you started to have to have problems with him in terms of your political activities or before?

MR RAMASITSI: No.

MS PATEL: No what sir, was it before or after?

MR RAMASITSI: That was before, that was in 1989.  It went on further when he refused us in our free political activities so that we decided to talk to him so that we turned to ask him to leave the country so that we remained in our political things freely.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry sir, I don't understand, are you saying that your suspicion about Mr Mahvunga's involvement in witchcraft only occurred after you started having problems with him relating to your political activities?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou have you got any re-examination?

MR NDOU: None, none Judge.

ADV DE JAGER: Why was he given a trek pass?

MR RAMASITSI: People were no longer interested in him because he was suspected to be a witch, and on the other hand he was refusing the youth from being involved in political activities.

ADV DE JAGER: No but a trek pass, isn't that something only given to a witch?

MR RAMASITSI: No, it can be give to who maybe the country wants to get rid of him, a person who is not co-operating with the people, a person who is found having killed somebody, even in the past when there were no police, there were people who used to be evicted to the community.

ADV DE JAGER: I see now who went to the headman to ask for a trek pass?

MR RAMASITSI: A boy and a girl were sent to the chief.

ADV DE JAGER: Their names?  Anyone connected with you people?

MR RAMASITSI: One of them is the deceased, he is dead, today he's dead.

ADV DE JAGER: And what were the reasons given to the chief when these people approached him to get a trek pass?

MR RAMASITSI: The causes were discussed before the quorum because people were no longer interested in him because they were being bewitched, they were assaulted while they were toyi-toyiing, in the third place he wants to destroy us, he claims to be the leader of the country and then we decided to let him go so that we can build our community up from him because he was not doing it properly, he was not at peace with the people.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was the chief at the time?

MR RAMASITSI: The chief was Adam's father, who was ruling one or two years after the death of the old man.

ADV DE JAGER: Is he still alive today?

MR RAMASITSI: Ja the old man is dead but there is one who will replace the old man who is still alive.

ADV DE JAGER: I understand that he's - but the chief who actually gave the trek pass, is he deceased now?

MR RAMASITSI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: So the man who ordered the "trek pass" is still alive?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes he's still alive.

ADV DE JAGER: And his name is?

MR RAMASITSI: Ruditsani Adam Mahvunga.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he related to the deceased?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This trek pass, is it a written document or what?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes it was written with the Headman's stamp to show that it has been approved.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that "trek pass" now?

MR RAMASITSI: I think that "trek pass" is with the police because the police were shown it and I don't know where it is now.

ADV SIGODI: At the time of the killing of the deceased did you belong to any political party?

MR RAMASITSI: I was a supporter of the ANC by then.

ADV SIGODI: And the other youth did they also belong to the ANC?

MR RAMASITSI: I think so but we were forming the Youth Congress which were intending to affiliate under the ANC.

ADV SIGODI: So the meetings that you held here, you were discussing ways of affiliating yourselves to the ANC, is that correct?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes it's correct.

ADV SIGODI: You mentioned that the deceased was known for his aggressive behaviour, do you remember when you said that yesterday?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes I still remember.

ADV SIGODI: What had he done before to show that he was an aggressive person?

MR RAMASITSI: One day he chopped a person to death and he was jailed three to four years in the ...(indistinct) prison.

ADV SIGODI: So is that why you were scared of him, because he chopped a person to death and jailed from four to six years?

MR RAMASITSI: That was just an example but the kind of his life, proof that he was aggressive, let me give another clear example.  There was a water furrow which used to take water to the kraal, that furrow was used by everybody.  During the night I used to water, sometimes I handed it over to another.  That water was normally opened somewhere where it is full, then one day, that water, when the deceased fought with the men, fighting with spades, fighting for that water.

ADV SIGODI: Because you mentioned yesterday that he was aggressive that you decided to form SDU's, Self Defence Units, do you remember that, yesterday?

MR RAMASITSI: Yes I remember that.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.