Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I do admit that I was part of a group of prisoners who were released to go and shoot outside or practice and I was also trained to fight against the ANC, but the matter regarding Matthew Phosa was the one incident that I have explained before.
	There has never been any other attempt that I've been involved in.  I only started seeing Matthew Phosa's face on the TV.  I have never had a discussion with him.  I do wish to meet his but I have never had discussions with him.  
	I do admit that I was trained in prison and I do admit that I was one of those prisoners who were part of the group that attempted to assassinate Matthew Phosa but the mission was aborted.  I don't think I would deny if I had indeed been involved in other attempts or hide my involvement.  I do not have any reason to do so.  I could have applied for amnesty in that regard.  There is nothing else whatsoever except for what I've explained here with regards to Matthew Phosa. ...[end of tape] - [side A of tape 5 is blank]

MR MUKADAM: ...[inaudible] you were let out of that prison purely for training and to go near the butcher where you say you go to and on that situation when you went to Nelspruit with the warders?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: As I've explained before, I was told that I should not talk of irrelevant points, I should only concentrate on those points that are relevant to the application.
	I got to know of those places when we travelled with these white bosses, the Boers, I would enquire from them what these areas were because they would travel along, around these areas.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Mr Gwamanda, my instructions are further that on the following day a certain Captain Frank Dutton arrived at Nelspruit and arrested you at that informal settlement, is that true?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That is a mistake.  I first knew Colonel Dutton at the ITU in Isipingo when I went to make my statement to the Goldstone Commission.  I went to them and told them about the information that I had.  When they tried to investigate about the matters that I was divulging, Gyane and them started making a lot of noise, they said the ITU was an ANC mouthpiece and they tried to stop that investigation.
	Colonel Dutton never arrested me, he knows that.  He knows that I went to him and I was committed to the process.  I went to my house to fetch those guns.  When we were asked to return guns I went with them to my home and I retrieved that AK47 from my home.  I was with the ITU, I took them to all these places, such that Mr Hlengwa came to prison and asked me not to work with the ITU and they promised me rewards.  I reported the matter to the prison authorities and I took Mr Hlengwa to the prison authorities and the prison authorities as aware of this.  He was banned from visiting me. 
	What happened thereafter was that I was attacked in my cell and I was stabbed.  Colonel Dutton is one of the first people to whom I gave information.  He even said that he was going to go looking for those dockets.  He came back to me and told me that he couldn't find those dockets and I couldn't even give my information to the independent monitors in KZN.  
	I do not know how many departments I have been to, even Judge MacNally I have written to and I have given information to all these departments I've mentioned but Colonel Dutton never arrested me.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwamanda, do you know a person by the name of Jerry Lukele?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Pardon?

MR MUKADAM: Jerry Lukele?

CHAIRPERSON: Is the L-U-K-E-L-A?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, I do not know him.

MR MUKADAM: Do you know a person by the name of Paulus Makgale?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, I don't know him.

MR MUKADAM: Were you ever taken out of prison by the ITU to assist them?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: The ITU would fetch me from prison and they would ask me questions and they would take me to all these places that I mentioned.  They would ask me to go and identify all these places.
	I went to Barberton with them and I identified these areas and they were convinced that I was telling the truth and they could see that they did allow those prison authorities to come into the army base.  I returned and the ITU took me to Ndwedwe and we discovered that Mr Mfayela had come and picked up the AK47.  Some of the information I cannot divulge because the matter is still with the ITU.  
	I signed some papers to say that, and because I had already submitted an application I was asked and I deposed to that letter, that the Truth Commission should collaborate with the police on this matter such that if ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, the question was whether the ITU ever took you out of prison and you've answered that by saying yes, they took you to places where you showed them, in Barberton and in Ndwedwe.

MR MUKADAM: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Did they take you out of prison at any stage from Westville?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, they did remove me from Westville.

MR MUKADAM: Did they ever take you out of prison from Barberton Prison?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: The ITU never came to Barberton.  I only met them when I was serving this present sentence.  I met them during 1994 and even my files reflects this.  When they came to fetch me it would reported in the prison, it is recorded.  I have been to the Barberton Matubatuba Police Station as well as at the Chatsworth Police Station.  I've been in a lot of areas and this information is all recorded in my file.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwamanda, when I had asked you earlier whether you were taken out of prison and I had indicated to you from any prison other than the incident of the training by the warders, you had initially said no and now you are telling us in fact you were taken out.  Are you telling us everything?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I was referring to the attack or the attempt on Matthew Phosa.  With regards to the ITU, the ITU refers specifically to what I'm talking about today.  I had taken my statement to the ITU for information purposes.  Such information has nothing to do with the Barberton issue.
	I was just denying that I had been taken out of prison for a second or third attempt on Mr Phosa's life.
The ITU had come to fetch me about the information that I had given to them.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MUKADAM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mukadam.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'll be
very short on behalf of the victims.
	Mr Gwamanda, you'll recall in the taxi owner incident, just to remind you, you mentioned the following people: Zwelaki Mbambo, Mdu Sithole, Ntini Ndokweni and Simibi Sishi and you said they were with you, do you remember that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What has happened to these people?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I gather that Simibi Sishi is deceased.  With regards to Ndokweni, he made a statement to the ITU.  I took the people from the ITU to identify Ndokweni.  And Mdu has also been investigated as well.  Zwelaki Mbambo is also known.  He's out on parole.  He has visited me and I told him that I had submitted an amnesty application and he did not have a problem with it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'm going to ask permission that a certain lady should stand up for the applicant to see her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Gwamanda, I'm going to ask the lady sitting behind just to stand up.  I want you to have a loot at her.  Do you see that lady?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, I see her.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know here?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, I don't.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This lady ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say you don't know her, have you ever seen her before?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, I have not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You will recall ....[intervention]