Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, surely the correct line of questioning would be to ask him how it came about that he made an amnesty application for the Fort Knox issue, not to put some bold assumptions and suppositions as to what he was or wasn't told.

MR PRIOR: He can answer what his counsel has now stated to the Committee.  How did it come about that you made an application for amnesty for Fort Knox (indistinct) matter?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason for me to apply for amnesty for the John Knox (indistinct) case despite our not having been arrested or anybody being charged for it, is because our Attorney told us if there are any cases you know you were involved in, even though you were not arrested for them, make applications for amnesty for them, because the Police don't stop investigations about any case.
	You may not apply for a case and it later is discovered that you were involved with such and such a case, and even after amnesty has been granted for you in other cases, you are then fetched and charged for those cases and there would be no other TRC process whereto you can go and ask for amnesty, even if in such TRC can be created, you would not be granted amnesty because you would have been expected to have confessed in the initial TRC process.

MR PRIOR: I want to move onto the Nahoon matter, where the white kombi was shot at.  Was the intention there to attack a minibus or a kombi or a bus of school children?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The intentions for the attack at Nahoon Dam was to attack a bus of school kids, not the kombi that was hit.

MR PRIOR: And how did the kombi that was hit, how did that occur?  Who shot at that kombi?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The person who shot at that kombi, is Kid.

MR PRIOR: Why did he do that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I do not know his reasons, but I think he was angry because we had  failed to get in time and hit the bus at Da Gama and it became apparent also that the school kids bus had also missed us.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that that could not have been done pursuant to any political objective or on an order from Jimmy Jones?  Do you agree with that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I do not understand the question sir.

MR PRIOR: What don't you understand about the question?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The whole question sir.

MR PRIOR: Well, you say that he was angry and he fired at this kombi, that wasn't the plan.  I am asking you so then, do you agree that what he did, the shooting at the kombi, at the occupants of the kombi, was not done pursuant to any political objective or on orders from Jimmy Jones, because that was clearly not your target?
	I am just asking you whether you agree with that, or you disagree.  You can say yes or no.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, it may be that as you are putting it, indeed we were not instructed to kill that kombi, the one he hit.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior ...

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I am finished sir.

ADV SANDI: The shooting of that kombi by Kid, would you say any political objective of APLA could have been achieved by Kid in doing so?  How would that assist the political objectives or program of APLA?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As I have said sir, the shooting of that kombi that was not as per instructions.  Kid did that on his own, according to my thoughts it was because he was angry because we had failed to hit the two targets we were supposed to hit that day.
	Further, I will not be able to answer as to whether the objectives of APLA were going to be supported by that act or not, because we were not sent to do that, he did that on his own.  Now, I do not know as to whether to him, how he took what he was doing, I do not know, sir.

MR PRIOR: I want to just put to you, according to my understanding of Brigadier Mofokeng, who spoke on behalf of APLA, at the Security Force hearings before the TRC in October last year, and I refer to page 90 of that submission, Mr Chairman, that it was certainly not the policy of APLA to attack school children, even white school children at that stage.
	That was not their policy.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see sir, the principles or the policies of APLA, if Mofokeng says it was not APLA policy, I cannot dispute or refuse that because he is one of the high ranking Commanders of APLA, Mofokeng, I cannot disagree with what he says.
	I do not know as to whether what he said was because he was being opportunistic, I cannot say anything if he says it is not part of policy.  It is confusing to me, because Jimmy Jones is also a high ranking Commander, how so that if that is not part of the party policy, he does not know that and he instructed us to do that.

MR PRIOR: One would have expected that if that policy came down from the High Commander, Jimmy Jones would have known about that policy?
	Thank you Mr Chairman, I take the point.  I just want to move finally to the Da Gama matter.  What were you armed with at Da Gama?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: At Da Gama I was holding a 7.65 and a grenade, a hand grenade.

MR PRIOR: Did you drop the grenade before you fled as you told the Committee?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Prior, he dropped it while fleeing.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, I am confused, that wasn't the rifle grenade, the hand grenade?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: At Da Gama sir, I was having a 7.65 gun and a hand grenade.

MR PRIOR: Yes.  I indicated to Ncamazana yesterday, Mr Ncamazana that I had seen a photograph that the hand grenade was very close to the Honda Ballade, the Police found it there and photographed it there.
	Did you drop it as you were fleeing?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, I cannot remember where I lost it sir.  What I remember that I lost along my way, as I was passing the railway run, is the rifle.

MR PRIOR: All right.  Nothing really turns on that.  Can you say whether the Police, that is the South African Police were on the scene as you were fleeing, or did you not see them at all in the vicinity of Da Gama as you were fleeing?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: At the time I was fleeing, I did not see the Police.  The only thing I heard and that caused me to flee, was the sound of a oncoming helicopter.

MR PRIOR: We know that Constable Williams from the Reaction Unit was killed at Da Gama during the mob up or follow up operation.  Do you anything about that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I heard about that at court if I am not mistaken, the time we were standing trial for this case that we were sentenced for.

MR PRIOR: Tell me, was the objective to kill as many people in that Da Gama company bus as possible?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR PRIOR: The hand grenade, were you going to throw that into the bus?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir, as we were going to Da Gama, the intention was to hit with the rifle grenade.  We did not think that a hand grenade would be necessary.

MR PRIOR: In the light of your knowledge that the armed struggle had been suspended, you nevertheless went on with these operations as you say now, on the say so, or the instruction, of Jimmy Jones?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question?

MR PRIOR: In the light of what you have told us about the operations that you went on, Da Gama, Nahoon, Highgate and Bahai, you did these things, you did these operations despite your knowledge that the armed struggle had been suspended by your organisation?  Is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: At the time I was involved in those operations, I was, I had known already from the radio that the armed struggle had been suspended.

MR PRIOR: Had you ever queried that with Jimmy Jones for example, to ask him to explain why the armed struggle was suspended, but you were still continuing with the armed struggle?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I never got to ask him.

MR PRIOR: Did you ever ask TNT or Kid why that was the position?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, I never asked any of them.

MR PRIOR: Not a single soul, not even a member of the PAC in Mdantsane or East London or Butterworth?