Amnesty Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1999-05-11

MR RUDOLPH: Your Honour, I would just like to say to you that the evening of that meeting there were many people present.  Not all those present were AWB's and if there were some there who came there with knopkierries or as night guards that was them.  What happened there was that we lived in times of turmoil, worse than today and people had to travel long distance with weapons.  If you left your weapons at home and it got stolen, you had problems, if you left it in your car and it was stolen, you had problems, and there was a question as to whether people would be allowed to bring along their weapons.  Mr Terre'blanche insisted then that if weapons were being brought there, they should be licensed weapons because we accepted that the police would have blockades along the road.  That was the reason for the presence of the weapons there.
	I would like to say to you, however, even if you were to count all those weapons and put them together that appears in the court case as well and you were to look at the evidence of General Malan and then later at the summary of the magistrate, you would see that there was an arsenal brought by the police to Ventersdorp.  And if a brief were to be given that weapons were to be brought along and it is understood from that that people had prepared themselves to use those, I would like to say to you that the evening at Ventersdorp the leader of the AWB, chief leader, because there were more leaders, but the chief leader of the AWB actually man alone went out to the streets when shots rang out and he said: "for heavens' sake do not shoot".  For any reasonable person who could deduce from that that the AWB went to that meeting to shoot I would like to say to you that the AWB proved them wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Ms Patel.
	Mr Rudolph, could you just give us an idea of the numbers?  At the time the conflict broke out, approximately how many members and supporters were there of the AWB on the one hand and approximately what were the numbers of the Security Force members and others on the other side of the conflict?

MR RUDOLPH: Regarding the security forces, there were more than 1000 men who were brought there with Ratels and who were all armed.  I have the figure here.  If you will allow me I will provide you with the details at a later stage.  As regards the other people, the people who did not agree with Mr de Klerk, in that week arrangements also made by the Conservative Party and the Farmers' Crisis Action and Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg then had a meeting of the Conservative Party before Mr Terre'blanche at the town hall.  So there were many people, it was not just AWB people on the whole, but when we walked there were a whole number of people but the people marched together with the AWB with the expectation of gaining access to the hall because that was the impression that Mr Terre'blanche was supposed to leave them with after I had told him that there had been an invitation to meet with and to speak to Mr Armie Venter regarding access to the hall.
	I just want to say further that the AWB people were there in uniform or most of them were in uniform and I think that we accepted responsibility for those people.  The fact that some of the people who were killed, who had been wearing khaki clothes and who did not wear the signs of the AWB, should serve as an indication of who could all have been present.  There was also of course the other situation.  There was one policeman who testified in court that he had been clothed in khaki clothes and that he mixed with the people there.  So how many agents provocateurs there were present, I cannot tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.  For the record, if one looks at page 220 of the bundle, the number of police that was estimated at the time of the trial, was in fact 900, and there is also a list on page 220 onwards as to the amount of weapons that they had in their possession from the Security Forces' side.
	There was also an allegation, Mr Rudolph, at the trial that members not only from the AWB but from the group of marches had teargas in their possession and had in fact hurled it at the police, could you perhaps comment on that?

MR RUDOLPH: I would like to say that I was right in front with the leader when we walked down and were confronted by the dogs.  There were many people gathered together.  Yesterday I told you that it was just a wonder that we weren't killed there.  There were people who were armed with cans of doom and teargas and I think that what really saved us there was that there were people from the back who also started throwing teargas, whether it was the police or opponents, I cannot tell you, but that teargas did not only, was not only spread over us but on the police as well, which resulted in the fact that the police and the demonstrators actually all got confused and got mixed up because on the roof of the hotel policemen were seen with guns and my information from our sources was that these were sharpshooters which police had there, but that teargas was thrown and by the public as well, that is true.

MS PATEL: Just finally, the question of the lights in the town having been switched off, can you enlighten us on how that had occurred, did you have any knowledge of that power?  Was that planned by you or was it just somebody who did it on his own?  Can you just briefly enlighten us please.