Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-15

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rerani, what language would you like to use?

N P RERANI: Venda.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any objection that you may have to the taking of the oath?

N P RERANI: (sworn states)

MR NDOU: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Rerani, you've signed an affidavit.  If you look at the last page of this affidavit, you'll see there's a signature there, is that your signature?

N P RERANI: Yes, it's might.

MR NDOU: (Indistinct) agree that this affidavit may be handed in as your evidence?

N P RERANI: Yes.

MR NDOU: (Indistinct) also want to add except from what appears on this affidavit?

N P RERANI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to amend anything in that affidavit?

N P RERANI: No.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Van Rensburg?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG

MR VAN RENSBURG: If you just give me one minute, please.  At the criminal trial, you could not give an explanation as to why you threw the stones at the house of the deceased on 6 April.

N P RERANI: Yes, it is true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you now give us an explanation why?

N P RERANI: Yes, I can.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Let me ask you this, why couldn't you give an explanation at the criminal trial as to why you committed these actions?

N P RERANI: When I arrived there, the fight was on.  I just joined and participate in throwing the stones.

MR VAN RENSBURG: (Indistinct) why didn't you tell the reason for the attack at the criminal trial?  Why didn't you tell the reason?

N P RERANI: Maybe they asked me in a way that you are not asking me now.  I might have answered it contrary to what you are expecting of me.

ADV DE JAGER: So, you didn't know the reason for the stone throwing, you just joined?

N P RERANI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you think they were throwing stones?  Throwing stones at a person could kill him.  Now why would people do that?

N P RERANI: I thought that if, when arriving there, I could just stand and watch them because they would revolt against me.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had no particular reason for throwing those stones?

N P RERANI: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

MS PATEL: In light of that response, I certainly don't have any questions, honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any questions?

MR NDOU: (Indistinct) I can't take it.  Perhaps, let me try.

CHAIRPERSON: No, well, contrary to the belief that you can flog a dead horse alive, I have serious doubts that you could do it today.  There's been no allegation that you practise witchcraft.

MR NDOU: It will be dangerous for me to (indistinct).

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ragwala, what language would you prefer to use?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Venda.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) have you any objection to the taking of the oath?

CHESTER RAGWALA: No.

CHESTER RAGWALA: (sworn states)

MR NDOU: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Ragwala, you are an applicant in this matter and you have prepared an affidavit and, if you look at the last page of this affidavit, is that your signature?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Yes, it's mine.

MR NDOU: Do you also agree that this affidavit may be handed in as your evidence?  Is there anything perhaps also that you want to add to what appears on the affidavit?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Yes, I cannot add anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you want to amend to that that you can think of now?

CHESTER RAGWALA: No.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Rensburg.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I've lost my way a little bit here.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, perhaps while my learned colleague is finding his way, we haven't numbered this exhibit nor the previous one.

CHAIRPERSON: I've just sent it for punching, we'll do it as soon as it comes back.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) I just thanked Ms Patel for pointing it out, I'd forgotten.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Ragwala, can you just tell us, what...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensburg, can we just number these pages, please?  Mr Mudau, his will be Exhibit C, isn't it?  Then we have Rerani, Exhibit D and Ragwala, E.  Are we all in agreement?

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, thank you for the opportunity.  Mr Ragwala, can you just tell us, what acts are you making application for amnesty for?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Throwing stones at the deceased as well as burning the house.

MR VAN RENSBURG: (Indistinct), in what way did you participate in burning the house?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Regarding the burning of the house, it's as follows.  I burned the car.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do in that episode?

CHESTER RAGWALA: I took the tyres, as the car was burning, I added towards the flame.

MR VAN RENSBURG: In paragraph 44 where you describe what your individual participation on that day was, and this fact that you burnt the car is not mentioned there.  Can you give us an indication why?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Could you repeat the question please?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why didn't you tell us through your affidavit and specifically in paragraph 44 that you are asking for amnesty because you burnt the car of the deceased?

CHESTER RAGWALA: It was perhaps out of forgetfulness in explaining.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the affidavit?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But at paragraph 42 it does say.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, in fact I did have a look at that, I apologise, I did.  Yes, under the circumstances, I will have no
further questions for the witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you, honourable Chairperson, just one.  Sir, at the time you stated when you were asked the reason for your involvement, you said you were just throwing stones because you felt like it and because everybody else was throwing stones, is that still your position today?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Could you repeat your question slowly?

MS PATEL: At the trial when you were asked as to why you participate in this incident, you said that you were throwing stones because you felt like it and because everybody else was throwing stones, can you remember that?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Yes, I do remember, that was when I was putting a statement or writing a statement before the police.  As I was explaining, I did explain that I arrived at the deceased's house and the fight was already on.  I joined in the throwing of stones.

MS PATEL: (Indistinct).

CHESTER RAGWALA: Yes, it was true.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) know why you throwing stones?

CHESTER RAGWALA: I knew that we were fighting against the deceased because the deceased had already been told to leave and he refused.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Could you repeat that question?

CHAIRPERSON: Why he was asked, the reason to go?

CHESTER RAGWALA: He was asked to leave because he was suspected of witchcraft plus...(intervention)

MS PATEL: Plus what, sir?

INTERPRETER: He is repeating that.

CHESTER RAGWALA: Because he was suspected of witchcraft practise and also apposing the people at Mahvunga village.

MS PATEL: (Indistinct), thank you, honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any questions?

MR NDOU: No.

ADV DE JAGER: In paragraph 20 of your affidavit you state
"As the deceased knew that he was on the list of witches and wizards, he made every attempt to disturb any coming together of the youth as a group as he thought it could be to his detriment."
Were you discussing at these coming togethers your action that 
would be taken against?

CHESTER RAGWALA: The question, please?

CHAIRPERSON: The youth wanted him to go out of the village, correct?

CHESTER RAGWALA: Yes.