Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser, I have briefly conferred with my colleagues and I think we are of the view that the matter stay on the roll.  We've got no difficulty in dealing with it in chambers on the basis suggested by you, but I think it just might be worthwhile just to keep it on the roll in case there's some evidence that you do not expect to come up that may come up.  It's there and we'll deal with it on ...

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  No certainly I didn't expect it to be withdrawn from the roll.  No, certainly, as you say, there may be evidence.  May I just specifically refer you to bundle 1 page 74, where he sets out on his application under oath, his particular contribution, Mr Chairman and his participation, page 74.
	Mr Chairman, dealing with the Khubeka matter, we received the bundle 2 at a late stage during last week, I believe it was and at the time, under the Chairmanship of Justice Wilson, we submitted to the Committee that because of what has been raised in bundle 2, it appears that there might be a huge dispute looming in regard to the identification of a body that had been exhumed, that body being the remains of Mrs Khubeka or not.
	Now Chairperson, we suggested, in order to shorten the proceedings, that some inquiry should be made as far as the dental records of the deceased was concerned, because if I may refer you to page 93 of bundle 2, at page 93 the husband of Mrs Khubeka says that she had visited a dentist in Empangeni and that he is able to point out which dentist that was and if you then refer to page 27 of volume 2, there appears to be in the, under E, Age Assessment, the last sentence, Mr Chairman, there appears to be a very distinguishing identification feature in regard to the teeth of the ...

CHAIRPERSON: The lower jaw.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now what we submitted, Mr Chairman, is that we have a skeleton with the skull with the teeth, or whatever remains of the teeth and surely the dentist that she visited must in all probability have a dental record.  We asked for that to be investigated.  Now that was undertaken.  Mr Chairman, the other thing which we now wish to submit is that perhaps the family through the Chair, Mr Chairman, could be requested to provide the Committee for its assistance, such family album photos as they might have of the deceased, Mr Chairman, and that we submit, will be very helpful in trying to determine whether the remains which are mentioned in Exhibit 2 did in fact belong to Mrs Khubeka, yea or nay and that's really all I want to say.  But at this stage I believe that Mr Wills needs to report back, Mr Chairman, on what has been done in regard to the dental records and inquiries made in that regard.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, what my learned friend says is so.  We did undertake to look into that matter.  The dentist apparently had already been approached previously by the investigating officer in the D'Oliviera unit, Capt Holmes, he spoke to the dentist, the dentist has got no records.  We will assist in so far as we can with photographs, no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills I wonder if during the lunch adjournment you could speak to your clients regarding the photographs, just to establish whether there are any and if they're suitable. I've seen these coloured photocopying, you know if copies could be made of one or two good photographs, that might help.

MR WILLS: I'll do so, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson lastly, through the Chair, may we inquire what the name of this dentist and perhaps a telephone number is, perhaps it could be given to us in the lunch time, because we would like to follow this up as well?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I can't see any problem in that.  I wonder if Ms Thabethe could perhaps get that information from the investigator and supply it to Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: We're indebted to you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman and that is all that I wish to mention.

CHAIRPERSON: Then Mr Wills, with regard to the cost of making copies etc, I'm sure an arrangement can be made for it to be paid from the Commission's side and not to be paid by the family.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that takes care of the housekeeping matters, as it were.  We have placed before you, Chairperson, a summary of the evidence for your convenience, of Col Botha.  May we suggest that that be marked Exhibit B.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is a - this document, do we all have a copy of it?  It's a statement by Col Botha.  Yes, thank you.  That will be Exhibit B.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson sorry, at this stage can I again request of my learned friend that he's well aware of the difficulties that we have with this language, the fact that these are in Afrikaans, I would request that whenever these statements are ready, that they're submitted to us as early as possible in order that the proceedings are not unnecessarily delayed by us having to not have perused these documents thoroughly enough prior to the evidence being led.  I understand from the previous application that it's Mr Visser's practice to place a statement like this in respect of each of the applicants for whom he represents.  I'd like those statements as soon as possible, in order that I can get them interpreted and bear them in mind with the evidence generally.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We had this yesterday, a similar procedure and what happened then and will probably happen today is that the witness essentially just reads the statement into the record and when he is doing that it is simultaneously translated and then the witness embellishes upon it, but I would ask if, Mr Wagener, that if the statements are available, I don't think there's any problem, there shouldn't be any problem in making them available to Mr Wills before the actual witness is sitting in the witness chair.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we already told the other Amnesty Committee under the Chairmanship of Justice Wilson last week when the same request was made, that we have absolutely no problem with that.  The only problem which we have at this hearing is, we had absolutely no time to prepare and we have been trying to stay one day ahead as we went along during the hearings, Mr Chairman.  These statements were finalised this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, you are an amnesty applicant with regard to this incident, regarding Mrs Nthombi Kahiso Khubeka and your amnesty application appears in bundle 1, pages 12 to 29, where you deal with this particular incident from page 16 to 21, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You have previously given evidence before another Amnesty Committee during November and during the current cycle before the Amnesty Committee under the Chairpersonship of Judge Mall and what I would like to ask you is whether you confirm the evidence that you gave at that time.  Do you confirm that today and do you request that this be incorporated in your evidence with regard to this incident?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I confirm this and I request that it be incorporated as such.

MR VISSER: And that includes the content of Exhibit A and any other such information, evidence or documentation which may be mentioned therein?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Would you begin ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Visser, just for record purposes, to indicate, you've made reference to the witness giving evidence before Justice Mall, just to say that Justice Mall would have been present at this hearing, but he is at the moment ill and is in hospital and is unavailable, hence my presence here.