Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

MR PANDAY: He was just the Chairman of the Youth League, you mentioned earlier?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: If Lindani held such a high position, shouldn't he have gone to the ANC directly?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, Lindani was coming from the ANC as he was a member.  I cannot say what decision was taken, that led him to come to me.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mpanza, you make it seem that you were a very important person in the struggle that was going on.  Did you personally have any contact with any ANC officials regarding problems in Mkababa and problems in Empangeni?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Most of the times, I was working in the kwaMashu office.  We were also working with the people from Durban.  This mission was just directed to me, because these people came straight to me to ask for assistance, and then I talked to the Mkababa leadership, I also talked to the Empangeni office.  Lindani was a well known person in the ANC circles.   Tulani Shabalala was coming from Empangeni as an ANC member.
	He was holding a certain position in the ANC in Empangeni.  Therefore when I was connecting with him, it was obvious that I was connected to the ANC.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mpanza, had there been problems in kwaMashu, had there been problems in kwaMashu, who would you have gone to help, or who would you have asked for help?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I would go and report to Papa Ndlovu.  If that was a military problem, he is the one who would tell me what to do, because he was responsible for the kwaMashu area.

MR PANDAY: Right, now was Papa Ndlovu responsible for all military activities and did he control your activity as well?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Papani was in charge of the MK matters in kwaMashu.

MR PANDAY: Right, now when the MK went to Empangeni, that was an MK matter?  The question is simple, when you and the other members went to Empangeni, was that an MK matter?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I can say it was an MK matter, because there was going to be a battle, a fight.

MR PANDAY: Wouldn't you have had to get the consent from Papa Ndlovu to carry out this matter?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: It is either yes or no, Mr Mpanza, you are rambling and losing most of us.  Would you have had to get the consent of Papa Ndlovu to carry out this MK matter, yes or no?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No.   Because Papa was working only with the kwaMashu area.   My mission was outside the kwaMashu area.

MR PANDAY: Now, when you went to carry out the robbery and hopefully attack the policeman, Steyn, didn't you find it a bit strange that you were going to attack him right next to the police station, and the robbery, didn't you expect to see more policeman at this robbery, where this robbery took place?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: When we checked the place, there were policemen, but there were not that much.   We thought that the only police who would come, after we had  attacked Steyn, and run away.

MR PANDAY: Did you expect Steyn to come there by himself when this robbery took place?  Isn't that odd?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I was expecting him to come with  his colleagues.

MR PANDAY: With his colleagues?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes.

MR PANDAY: So you ran the risk to assassinate effectively a whole police station if they got there?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: If it had happened that we were going to be ensued in a battle with them, but we were first going to check if there was Steyn, and then we were going to attack him, but if the other police would come to us and attack us, we would run away, but if there was Steyn only, we were going to attack him and run away.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mpanza, you mentioned in paragraph 9 that roundabout February 1992 you managed to identify Steyn when you saw him in a court house, why didn't you wait for him until he left this court house and attacked him then?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I was not armed and it was not within my plans.  There is a principle that you have to spot places where you can attack a particular person, and check about your safety and the safety of the civilians if you are doing that, or the safety of the community.  You cannot just attack randomly.

MR PANDAY: So you say the safety of the civilians?  Now, had a battle ensued at Avocas Wholesalers, do you think the civilians would have been safe?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, because I had chosen the time early in the morning.  We had planned that civilians wouldn't have been affected, and we knew that there were only a few people in the shop, and we forced them inside the shop, and then the only people who were expected to be there, was police and we knew that the Wholesalers, there is no way that, the people are not that much there in the area of the Wholesaler.

MR PANDAY: Okay.  Thank you Your Worship, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

UNKNOWN: One question, Mr Mpanza.  Is it correct that Mr Shandu was a policeman?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: On page 12 of the bundle, paragraph 4, sorry paragraph 13, is it true that he was promised by yourself that he would be given a small portion after the robbery?

CHAIRPERSON: What paragraph is that?

UNKNOWN: Paragraph 13, page 12.

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I would like to explain this further.    It is not that we were giving him some compensation, the reason for him, we as Africans, we believe in using ntelezi when we are going to the battle, and he is the one who, Mzwake, organised that ntelezi for us, and he had paid money for that ntelezi.  The money was not that much.  You have to perform a specific ritual before you use certain medicine in African ...

UNKNOWN: I didn't really want to know what he was going to do with his share of the money, I just wanted to know from you whether you did promise him a share of the portions that you were going to rob?  I don't want to know what he was going to do with the money.  I just want to find out that aspect.

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, we did promise him the money.

UNKNOWN: So would I be correct to say that he was part of the operation, by virtue of the fact that he was a policeman, who was going to assist you in the robbery and thereafter you would give him his share of the money?  Is that putting it correctly?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

MR LAX: Just one thing, in your application form you made no mention of this assassination of Steyn, why is that?  It does not appear anywhere in your application form, at all?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: When this happened, this application form had three pages.  I wrote much about Lindani, because I thought that I would get the opportunity to testify (indistinct), I was going to give more details.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 10(b) specifically asks for justification regarding the acts, omissions, offences associated with a political objective?  There you go about telling us about Self-Defence Units and how you were asked about the Mkababa Youth League, etc.  You made no mention of this other aspect of why this whole operation was conducted?  Now you come and tell us, now you are specifically asked in this form, now you come to tell us you knew about it, but you thought you would come and tell us in person?  Why didn't you leave that paragraph blank and come and tell us everything in person?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I did not mention Steyn, but as a person who had not discussed with the legal representative, I mentioned the incident, it was my intention to attack Steyn, but it did not happen.    The only thing that I made mention of, was the robbery, because we did not attack Mr Steyn.
	After discussing with the legal representative, I saw it as important that we should also mention Mr Steyn.  If Steyn was eventually attacked, that was going to be mentioned.