Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

BISHOP STOREY: If Jerry Richardson, if we knew he was an informer, and if Mrs Mandela knew he was an informer - is that what you are saying? - it is reasonable that she would not have had him staying there.  Is that what you were asking?  Yes, I think that's reasonable.

MR SEMENYA: And if we had known in '88 that Jerry Richardson is the character that he is, given what he confesses to, is it reasonable to say that Mrs Mandela would not have been moving with Jerry Richardson?

BISHOP STOREY: I can't answer that.  I, I can't, there's no way that I can surmise whether Mrs Mandela would have or would not have associated with Jerry Richardson if she had known at that time what kind of character he was.

MR SEMENYA: Really, Bishop, are you saying that Mrs Mandela in 1988 ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Well, it would depend on whether she approved of his behaviour or not.

MR SEMENYA: But that's the question I'm testing.

BISHOP STOREY: I can't surmise as to whether she would have approved of his behaviour or not.  A lot of the experience we had around that time in trying to deal with the abduction pointed fairly strongly to the fact that she might have approved of such behaviour.

MR SEMENYA: Bishop, let me put it this way.  Are you saying that you have reason to believe Mrs Mandela knew that Jerry Richardson is an informer at that time?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I'm not saying that, but you were talking about his behaviour.  Your first question was about his being an informer.  Then you went on to say that if we knew he was a character who behaved in the way he did, would it be reasonable to assume that Mrs Mandela would associate with him? And I said I can't answer that, because she might have well approved of that kind of behaviour, and some of what we discovered around this abduction points towards that possibility.  So, there are two separate questions I heard.  The first was about police informant and the second was about errant behaviour.

MR SEMENYA: Bishop, do you have reason to believe that Mrs Mandela would have known in January of 1989 that Jerry Richardson killed Stompie?

BISHOP STOREY: I believe Mrs Mandela knew what happened to Stompie, knew about the circumstances of his death.  That's what I believe.  Whether she knew that Richardson killed him, or whoever else, I can't say.  What I do believe is that she knew what happened to Stompie.

MR SEMENYA: Well, we know what happened to Stompie, he was killed.  The question I'm asking you is, do you, as Bishop Storey, have reason to believe that Mrs Mandela in January of 1989 knew that Stompie was killed?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, yes, I think she did.

MR SEMENYA: What is the basis for your, what reason do you have to that conclusion?

BISHOP STOREY: The reason I've is that in our dealings with trying to resolve this abduction problem it became quite clear to me, very early in the piece, from the reports of the Crisis Committee, that they were negotiating with Mrs Mandela. She was in charge of that negotiation from the side of the Mandela house, she was the one who was deciding what would happen and whether the youths would be made available, given access to Crisis Committee members, she was the one who was making decisions about when and if and how and under what conditions they would be released.  Therefore, it seems reasonable to me that she was aware of everything that was happening relating to those young people while they were in her house, and if Stompie was, indeed, killed or brought near to death in her house, I believe she knew about that, yes.

MR SEMENYA: Well, you seem to say Stompie was killed in her house.  Where do you take that one from?

BISHOP STOREY: I didn't say that. I said Stompie was killed, if Stompie was killed or was brought near to death in her house, I believe she would have known about it.

MR SEMENYA: Well, what ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: I don't know where Stompie was killed.  I've heard differing versions.  I do know ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: I do know where he was beaten.  I do know where he was beaten to a condition where he was, apparently, near death.  I don't know where he was killed.

MR SEMENYA: Is that what you offer, sir, reason why you say Mrs Mandela knew in January of '89?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I think it's a reasonable inference.

MR SEMENYA: You would offer that as a reasonable inference that she knew that Stompie's body was lying somewhere there?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I don't know whether she knew where Stompie's body was lying, I know where it was found, but the question was whether she knew about his death in early January, and I believe, yes, she did.

MR SEMENYA: Isn't it correct, really, that the very first information coming to Mrs Mandela was from Falati that this children were in trouble at the manse?  Do you have information that negate that position?

BISHOP STOREY: That Mrs Mandela received information from Ms Falati that something wrong was going on in the manse?

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: Is that the question?

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

BISHOP STOREY: No, I don't have any reason to, I don't know whether that's true or not, but I certainly don't have a reason not to believe it.

MR SEMENYA: Do you have any reason to believe that at that time Mrs Mandela ought to have known that there was no substance to this accusation?

BISHOP STOREY: No, not necessarily.  She may have believed them.

MR SEMENYA: Do you have reason to believe that, even when the boys came public to say that they were molested, Mrs Mandela must have known that that allegation by them was factually incorrect?

BISHOP STOREY: Could you repeat that question?

MR SEMENYA: Do you have reason to believe that, when the boys accused Bishop Verryn of sexual molestation, that Mrs Mandela ought to have known that they were lying?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I've no reason to believe that the boys ever accused Reverend Verryn of sexual molestation, I've reason to believe that that accusation was beaten out of them.

MR SEMENYA: No, even if they were saying it out of coercion, as we now know, do you have reason to believe that Mrs Mandela, at that time, knew that that information is incorrect?

BISHOP STOREY: I don't think that any information that comes from somebody who is being beaten half to death has any reliability, and the question arises as to why they have  to be beaten before they give that information.

MR SEMENYA: Well, let us test that information.  The very first time the information goes to Mrs Mandela is through Falati, who is not beaten.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: So, at that moment there is no reason for caution.  Am I correct?

BISHOP STOREY: I think there's always reason for caution when somebody hears an allegation like that, because it's a very serious one, and I think that there are two concerns when one hears such an allegation.  The one concern is the welfare, of course, of any young people who may be, allegedly, being abused, but the other is for the reputation of a clergyman who has a very high reputation, and I would travel very cautiously in dealing with that kind of allegation.  I certainly wouldn't simply believe what I hear on the first report. But I said earlier in answer to your question, that it is quite possible that Mrs Mandela believed what she heard.  If her first report was from Falati, it's possible she believed what she heard from Falati.

MR SEMENYA: Now, something that you say, also, catches my attention.  Because of a particular incident that Attorney Krish Naidoo brings Katiza with him, and you see fear and trepidation in the eyes of those who were there ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: ... you began to be suspicious of Krish Naidoo as well?  Am I correct?