Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

MR MAY: Yes, there is.  What I recall is that I took Mr De la Rey to 1187 where I stay so as to get the gun that killed the deceased.  We did not recover this firearm like he thought.  He took the toilet roll in the house, that is the only thing I can remember.  The ice brick that he is referring to is one thing that I can recall in that bag belonging to the deceased.  It was not found at home where I stayed, because we went there specifically to look for the firearm.

ADV MTHEMBU: Very well, he goes on the next paragraph, paragraph 24 he says at house number 1663 D, the following items were handed to him by yourself: one brown bag containing one pair of beige trousers, one brown belt, one pair of black mens' shoes, two pens, one white and black bag, tools and then hidden in the bedroom and under the bed one first aid kit, 13 cassettes in a case hidden in a stove in the kitchen.  What is your explanation Mr May?

MR MAY: I concur with what he said in his statement, but I deny the places to which he refers the articles found at.  All these articles were found in the car, as I drove the car to that place there wasn't a necessity for me to take articles from the car and take them into the house because things which were in the car were my concern.

ADV MTHEMBU: Now this house number 1663 D, whose house is this?

MR MAY: The house belong to Mpo.

ADV MTHEMBU: How is Mpo known to you?

MR MAY: She was my girlfriend.

ADV MTHEMBU: But can you still recall during the investigations whether Mr De la Rey did visit this house or not?

MR MAY: Are you referring to the investigations?

ADV MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR MAY: Well, I cannot recall.

ADV MTHEMBU: What was your answer?

MR MAY: I do not have knowledge, broad knowledge as to the investigations he did.

ADV MTHEMBU: (Indistinct) do you ever recall having taken Mr De la Rey to house number 1663 D?

MR MAY: Mr De la Rey found me at the same house when I was arrested.

ADV MTHEMBU: And was anything found in your person other than items found in the vehicle which was parked outside this house?

MR MAY: Yes, there are some articles.  It was my lumber jacket and my husky wallet.  But all of these things were handed over to me at court.

ADV MTHEMBU: Sorry Mr Chairman, I am just trying to see - in paragraph 13 Mr May, Mr De la Rey says he found one brown wallet containing R180-00 in cash consisting of three R50-00 notes, one R20-00 note and ...

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, paragraph?

CHAIRPERSON: 13.

ADV DE JAGER: 13?

ADV MTHEMBU: 13, page 3.

JUDGE WILSON: You've asked him this already.

ADV MTHEMBU: Have I?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

ADV MTHEMBU: I am sorry Mr Chairman.  So purse you are referring to that was found in your person and belonged to you, is that the purse mentioned in paragraph 13.2 "one blue denim husky wallet containing R7-18 in cash"?

MR MAY: Yes, that is the purse I am referring to which belonged to me, it was found on my person in my pocket.

JUDGE WILSON: But what about this brown wallet?

MR MAY: It was inside the bag together with a gold wrist watch and plastic, bank plastic bags with coins.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you put it in there?

MR MAY: As we left the deceased's place, these things remained intact.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you put the wallet in the bag?

MR MAY: Yes, I did.

JUDGE WILSON: Where was the bag kept?

MR MAY: The bag was kept in the car, it was a suitcase bag.

JUDGE WILSON: With all this money, coins, all kept in the car?  The car parked with no number plates on it?  Is that what you are telling us?

MR MAY: Yes, that is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Why was it kept in the car where anybody could break in and steal it?

MR MAY: During the night I sacrificed a few hours of sleep.  I parked the car next to the window.  It was next to the back room's window.  I slept in this room where I parked the car next to the window, knowing very well that the car had such contents inside it.

JUDGE WILSON: Why didn't you  just take them in and put it underneath your bed?

MR MAY: I never thought of that.

JUDGE WILSON: You never thought of it, thank you.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr May, what else was found in your person?

MR MAY: Nothing was found on my person.

ADV MTHEMBU: But now would then Mr De la Rey make a statement to the effect that the articles mentioned in paragraph 13 were handed to him, or he found them in your person?

MR MAY: I think that is just to strengthen his evidence.  I have no knowledge to that effect why he did such a thing.

ADV MTHEMBU: Was he further strengthening his evidence when he says the items mentioned in paragraph 23 was handed over to him by yourself?

MR MAY: I cannot recall the articles referred to in paragraph 23.

ADV MTHEMBU: One bottle lemon juice, cake mix, roll of paper and an ice brick.

MR MAY: I can say he tried to strengthen his evidence on that score because in the house he found toilet paper and lemon juice which had nothing to do with the deceased's articles.

ADV MTHEMBU: And these that I mentioned in paragraph 24, the one beige trousers, etc?  He says those articles also were handed to him by yourself.

MR MAY: No, it is not correct.

ADV MTHEMBU: But now why would Mr De la Rey make this allegation, can you think of any reason?

MR MAY: Briefly I can say upon my arrest Mr De la Rey found me in a (indistinct) condition, however, that gave him the privilege to take such actions, knowing very well that I could not recall what took place the previous day.

JUDGE WILSON: These things, paragraph 24, you say they were in a brown case - but this was in the car?  Is that what you say, or that is what you said in your evidence a few minutes ago?

MR MAY: Yes, that is what I am saying.

JUDGE WILSON: So you left these in the car as well?  You never thought of taking them into the house, is that so?

MR MAY: Yes, that is so.

JUDGE WILSON: And Mr De la Rey said when he found the car parked behind the house, the doors were not locked and there was nobody in the house.  What have you got to say about that?  He said the car was not closed and there was nobody at the house.

MR MAY: I agree with him that the car was not locked.  The next thing that there was nobody in the house is not the truth.

JUDGE WILSON: So you  leave all these valuable things outside in an unlocked car?  Is that what you want us to believe, things you had stolen for the Party and you  left them there in an unlocked motor car?

MR MAY: I was still around at that time, I was not far from my house.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you arrested in the house or not?

MR MAY: I was at the gate together with my friends the time when I was arrested.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you run away and members of the public arrested you?

MR MAY: No, that is not so.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you in fact give the information to De la Rey where you friends are, your co-accused?

MR MAY: Yes, that is true.

ADV DE JAGER: And you took him to the respective houses, pointed them out to the police?

MR MAY: That is true.

ADV DE JAGER: Was anything found in the stove in your house or in your girlfriend's house?

MR MAY: There is nothing which was found in the stove, sir in my house or in my girlfriend's house.

ADV DE JAGER: Anything under your bed?

MR MAY: No sir, nothing.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was staying at number 1187 F?

MR MAY: I was staying there.

ADV DE JAGER: And at 1663 D?

MR MAY: That is Mpo, who is my girlfriend.

ADV DE JAGER: Was anything found at your girlfriend's house?

MR MAY: Nothing was found at my girlfriend's house.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you take the police to your girlfriend's place?

MR MAY: I didn't go there, they found me there, the car was inside my girlfriend's yard.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.    So you didn't keep the car where you were staying?

MR MAY: No, sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And were all the things that you collected in the car, left in the car?  All the things you've collected on the farm, were all the articles left in the car or did you divide it between yourselves?