Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini, at that time, did you know who it was that was attacking your "rondawel"?

MR DLAMINI: At the time I did not know.

MR STEWART: Who did you think it might be?

MR DLAMINI: Because that was an IFP stronghold, I thought that the UDF must be attacking, that is what I thought.

MR STEWART: And did you subsequently learn who it was that was launching this attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes ultimately we did realise that it was the policemen who were on our side.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini how did you learn that, and how did the attack end?

MR DLAMINI: I can just say that the Induna, after the firing of the gunshots, he went out and actually saw the police cars parked outside, and actually was trying to talk to them who were actually shooting us who were in the "rondawel".  The police then tried to stop at that particular time, they stopped shooting, and that terminated.  And then myself and Zombi went out, and the police then sat, and we asked from them, "why are we being shot", and then they said they got the information from the UDF that in this house there are people who have guns that not legal - illegal weapons.  And then it's then that we produced our appointment cards, and then we said, "no, you can't, we are also on your side".  These are the other police that were being shooting, we are also the police, we are actually watching or guarding this Induna, and thereafter they apologised.  And that actually ended just like that, but during the fight there was a white one who actually got injured.  And then everything that was passing by, we were just shooting and shooting, because they were also shooting.

MR STEWART: And as far as you are aware, it was just this one white policeman who was injured in that attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that is how I know.

MR STEWART: And did the - was that then the end of the matter or did the police want to investigate it further?

MR DLAMINI: No, nothing has happened.  We didn't even write the statement, and that was the end of it.

MR STEWART: Now you say that some time thereafter you were posted to the Sinatingi area of Pietermaritzburg to guard Mr Nwabe of the IFP who was Chairman of that area.  Is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is so.

MR STEWART: And that you came to have to defend Nwabe's house?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: What was the situation in that area insofar as political conflict between the IFP and UDF was concerned?

MR DLAMINI: The situation was tense, it was bad.  Such that when I arrived at the Nwabe's residence, it was bad, and we couldn't even go out.  This Nwabe couldn't even go to town to buy something.

MR STEWART: Who were you with when you went to that area to assist Nwabe?

MR DLAMINI: Here at Nwabe I was with a boy called Trevor Nene.

MR STEWART: Now you mentioned in your application there's a time that Mudla Induna came there with some others, you remember that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is like that.

MR STEWART: Do you remember who he came with?

MR DLAMINI: The people that I can recall well are Dan - Dan Leefe; Pumlane Mshengo; Sibo Bengo; Stlelo Ndlovu - I can't quite remember the others.

MR STEWART: Now you would have heard the evidence of Mr Khumalo two days ago when he mentioned the time when he came there to the Nwabe house.  Was it the same time - do you remember if he came them with Mudla Induna and the others?

MR DLAMINI: Yes he was with Mudla Induna.  Chair, when I arrived there the situation was so tense and bad, such that the war was just coming drastically.  I just took the phone and then I phoned here in Hammarsdale, and then I indicated to them that this is beyond my powers.  And I spoke to one Sergeant, and I can't recall the name, I've forgotten.  He is the one who actually contacted Mudla Induna.  Indeed Mudla Induna and them arrived with John Makateni, in a van - ...(indistinct) van, and they arrived there.

MR STEWART: What was your intention in calling them, what were you calling them to come and do in that area?

MR DLAMINI: Shlalo in that area.   Chairperson, in that area the ANC is nearby the graveyard.  Everybody who used to come there, a person coming there by ...(indistinct) would be buried there.  The reason for calling these people, when people are coming to bury here, they would actually burn the houses because they knew that this was the IFP stronghold.  When they arrive to bury people, they've already started burning the houses.  Then I realised that this beyond my powers, they I phoned Mudla Induna.  Indeed he came, that's the reason why I called him.

MR STEWART: Now you became involved in an incident then at that time when those people came.  Will you explain that.

MR DLAMINI: Mudla Induna, when they came, they houses were burning, and thereafter I pointed that these are the houses, you can see they're burning.  And the realised that and people are running away, and people are actually now surrounding the area that I was guarding.  Then I said to him, "you can see the situation".  He just took the decision on his own, and he told the people that you can see the situation is tense, let's attack.  And indeed Mudla Induna and them, instantly they arrived - after their arrival, there's an area called Gigi, there is nothing.  On their arrival I was actually showing them the area where the comrades are, and they actually saw then singing and dancing, and what so ever and Mudla Induna and them.  And Jabulani Makateni was there.  But when the van stopped, then they went up to that area called Gigi.

MR STEWART: Did you go with them?

MR DLAMINI: No I remained behind with those people that I was guarding, because it was too full, I had to stay with those people that I was guarding.  They left, Mudla Induna and them..

MR STEWART: And what did they do, having left in that way?

MR DLAMINI: Oh, they actually met - fighting then, the situation was bad and the attack happened, and I don't know what happened thereafter, but I did hear the gunshots and the bullets.  This is happening while I'm guarding this person, and the people actually ran away and they were seeking refuge here on me.  What was done by Mudlam Induna there, although I heard the gunshots, although I did not know what was happening there.  And thereafter Mudla Induna and them came back to where I was to this house.

MR STEWART: And in your guarding duties of that house, did you also have cause to shoot - to shoot at any people?

MR DLAMINI: No.  As I've explained, that here I couldn't leave the place because there as a lot of people there, I had to guard these people here.  Mudla Induna and them are they ones who able to go out and fight.

MR STEWART: You see Mr Dlamini, in your application you say "Mudla Induna and his group joined us" - have you got this on page 384?  It's page 10 of your affidavit, it's got a "10" at the bottom, do you have the page?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I can see.

MR STEWART: Can you see where it says "incident 3"?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I can see.

MR STEWART: And towards the bottom of that paragraph, 4 lines from the bottom, it says
"Mudla Induna and his group joined us, and together we shot back at the
	attackers."
Are you referring there to yourself as well, or to the other people?

MR DLAMINI: I'm referring to those people who were with Mudla Induna.  Those are the people who arrived and went up there at Gigi and shot.  This was happening while I was here at Nwabe's residence.

MR STEWART: And in the last sentence there in that paragraph you say
	"We shot about 10 people dead, and many others were injured."
Did you have knowledge of that?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, here people were actually narrating that this is what happened, these are the people who were shot.  That's where I got this information, that ...(indistinct) job that I did.  But physically I wasn't there, I was in this house that I was guarding.