Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

MR PRIOR: All right.  He told the Court and I want also your comment on this, he said he went to the, well, he spoke to the man at the Brickyard, that is Mr Makhasi, and he looked around the area and saw drag marks.  The spoor led him to the body of Donnie in a bush or near a bush.
	Also in the same vicinity papers were scattered around, and there had, to his mind, there were signs of a struggle.  Do you remember anyone giving that evidence at your trial?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Maybe I have forgotten, there were Police testifying there, I did not really take much cognisance of what they were saying.

MR PRIOR: I am going to suggest to you that if his account is correct, that there were drag marks which led up to the body, then it would seem that your evidence that you carried Donna, and carried her over a fence, is not true?

LUVUYO KULMAN: If you asked me a question, please repeat it.  I don't know whether you are stating that or if you are asking me a question.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree with that?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Please repeat yourself.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that there were struggle and drag marks from the truck to where Donnae was eventually found?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you quoting from the evidence at the trial?

MR PRIOR: Yes.  The reported evidence Mr Chairman.

LUVUYO KULMAN: When you say struggling, what exactly are you saying?  Please explain to me.

MR PRIOR: Do you disagree that Donnae was struggling from the time that she got out of the truck to the time that she was killed in the forest?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I can't remember what she was doing, but I know  was carrying her.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that you and your co-accused put her down and left her there?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that in the position and the place shown in photograph 7?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I can't remember the area, it could happen that we left her exactly there.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that, was she laying like that as you left her?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I can't remember the position she was laying.

MR PRIOR: And if you look at photograph 9, is that your co-accused as you have referred to him, Mr Thutha near the body, pointing to her?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Please look at photograph 3.  Can you tell us how her blouse became disturbed?  It seems that her blouse was moved upwards, exposing part of her breast?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I wouldn't know.

MR PRIOR: Can you explain how her jersey is removed and laying under or near her head?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I wouldn't know, I wouldn't know how to explain, I don't know.

MR PRIOR: In the position and condition you took her, and carried her as you have explained, she was unconscious and was not in a position to move any article of her own clothing, is that right?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Would you agree in the condition that you left her, there was no need as far as you could see, to stab her as you say Thandekulo had done?

LUVUYO KULMAN: We left her there.  The last person who was with her, was Thandekulo.  This is why I can't remember the matters about the jersey and all.

MR PRIOR: There is two last aspects ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Prior, can you just tell me, I don't want to waste time with the witness.  Will someone be giving evidence about the finding the body?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the clothing in photograph 1 and 2 is very different from the other.  Will they explain that?

MR PRIOR: There will be evidence yes, there is a perfectly satisfactory explanation.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  There are only two final aspects.
	You said when you drove off with the truck, you looked in the cubby hole, that was the cubby hole to which you thought Mr Meyers was going to take out a firearm, and you found there was nothing, no weapon in that cubby hole, is that right?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I searched at the car the second time.  I don't know where Thandekulo got the weapon.  It could happen that ...

MR PRIOR: Please, when you drove off, you were in the passenger seat, you were opposite the cubby hole.  I understood you to tell us that during that trip you looked in the cubby hole.

LUVUYO KULMAN: I did not say that.  Please don't confuse me, I did not say that.

MR PRIOR: You said you looked and you found there was no weapon there?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Please sir, don't confuse me.  I did not say that.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, I think I specifically asked him about this yesterday, as to whether he had checked in the cubby hole if there was anything, the firearm for example, and his reply was that they didn't check at all.
	The firearm was found by Thandekulo, he does not know where he found it from, which part of the truck he found the firearm from.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Sandi.

ADV SANDI: And then later he went to check, he didn't find anything.

MR PRIOR: At that level, I find it strange that you are seated next to the cubby hole, and would not simply have opened it, given your evidence that Mr Meyers was going for a firearm there?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I did not have such presence of mind at the time, because things were happening quickly.  I did not think at the time that I must check the cubby hole.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had just shot somebody because you thought a man was reaching for a gun in that cubby hole, now you were sitting in the vehicle, when you travelled 40 to 50 kilometres, and yet no never looked to see if the gun was in the cubby hole, something that will be very useful to the Army?  Can you explain why not?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I did not check because my mind was already at the destination.  I didn't have a chance to do this.  I knew that we were going to search the car any way, we were not going to just leave it like that.
	I did not do that, I was not able to do that whilst the car was on the road.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you were not able to do it, when you were sitting immediately behind the cubby hole?  I am afraid I don't understand that answer.

LUVUYO KULMAN: I don't know how to explain to you because this whole matter happened quickly.  For me to check the cubby hole, it did not come to my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: It did not happen quickly to drive in this truck for 40 or 50 kilometres, did it?  It must have taken quite a long time?  The question is why didn't you look in the cubby hole when you were driving from the scene where a man had tried to grab a gun from it, all the way to Mbashi?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Because I did not think of that.  I can't say I did think of it, when I didn't.

MR PRIOR: Let's see in that context, I would suggest to you that that makes a mockery of your suggestion that you thought there was a firearm in there, and that he was reaching for it.  That was the original reason you gave why you shot any way in the first place.
	If you didn't think there was a firearm in there, then you wouldn't have looked in there, and that can be the only explanation why you didn't bother to look during the period of time that you drove from where the first shooting took place to Mbashi.

LUVUYO KULMAN: Please repeat that.

MR PRIOR: Okay, I will try and repeat it a little bit less complicated.
	We have already the fact that you drove 40 to 50 kilometres from the place where this incident first happened, to the place where you were going to rendezvous with Thandekulo, are you with me?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: In a three ton truck, on a gravel road, you wouldn't have driven very fast, it would have taken you quite some time to drive from point A to point B.  Do you understand, are you with me?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I don't understand when you say it was going to take time, what time?

MR PRIOR: I am not going to waste my time with this nonsense.  Mr Chairman, I have two brief aspects, I just want to put to the witness.
	According to the indictment there was R2 018-92 which was recovered from your co-accused, Mr Thutha in his possession.  Do you agree with that amount or are you unable to comment?