Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Chairperson. I refer to the report that was submitted earlier today, and on page 20 on the left-hand column, paragraph 2 from the top or it may even be paragraph 3, if you take the first words. I want to read the sentence which starts, that
"These exposed allegations that a serious mutiny was put down by troops trained in the GDR and the cadres were subsequently ill-treated by Ronnie Kasrils, as deliberate disinformation, typical of the propaganda in the report of the Douglas Commission, a STRAPCOM exercise, covertly funded with taxpayers' money."
This is a very serious allegation, and I am wondering if you can substantiate it in any way in terms of the Douglas Commission. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Deputy President Mbeki?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.
According to our information, Dr Boraine, the Douglas Commission was established principally through a man called Russel Christa, who was an agent of military intelligence. I don't know if he still is, and is also currently a member of the National Party in the Gauteng Province.
Most of the report of the Douglas Commission derive from information or misinformation, as the case may be, given by one Mowesi Twala, at the Braamfontein offices of the Freedom Foundation, which was itself a front of military intelligence and was headed by Russel Christa. Those are the origins of the Commission. That's how it gathered its information. That is why this statement here, because it clearly from all the information we have, was set up as part of the activities of military intelligence.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mkhize?

MS MKHIZE: Just one brief question. Going through this document and having heard briefly what the Deputy President said about gender specific human rights violations, I would from our human rights violations hearings, we have heard quite a number of people appearing before us, saying in the ANC camps outside the country somehow women's rights were neglected, and in quite a number of instances, they have referred to gender specific human rights violations, which I think as this Commission, if we fail to capture, would not have done justice in the quest for truth, especially when thinking about what should be done in future in making sure that these experiences are not part of our history again.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Bishop. We will ask Joe Modise to deal with this question.

MR MODISE: Well, I think the allegations in many instances are true. The African National Congress, because we believe in gender equality, took steps to correct this. It was a very serious problem, which resulted in the top leadership of MK visiting the camps and instructing the camp commanders, camp commissioners to put an end to this practice.
Unfortunately this kind of problem is a very difficult one. It is the kind of problem that manifests itself in places such as camps, very far from home, isolated, in hostile areas, and the difficulty of young men going out into the towns to go and look for young ladies, was rather limited, because there were ambushes also on the way. Unita was very active in those areas. Now the confinement of men and women sometimes result in this problem.
There was also information to the effect that some of the camp commanders took advantage of their positions and started asking or pressurising some of the young ladies to do them favours. I think it is understood what type of favours I am talking about. Some commanders had been removed for this. So it was a problem that was addressed by the movement and its armed personnel. I thank you.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, Gertrude Shope would like to make a comment on this question, with your permission, but she probably needs to be sworn in also.

MRS SHOPE: (Duly sworn, states).

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much. Please be seated.

MRS SHOPE: Yes, Chairperson, I thought I should explain that the question of women being looked down upon or being mishandled, I think it is a global question all over. It did not only mean that it was the women specifically who were in the camps, who suffered these problems. Women as a whole are supposed to be the fair sex as it is always regarded. It is the duty of the women to make sure that they fight for their own rights and to be recognised as equal power within their community.
So in this particular case the Women's League, the Women's Executive Committee took turns in visiting our camps in Angola and wherever they were, to go and see our women, to go and solve some of their problems, to go and discuss with the command within the camps, how best we can work out these problems. I think we did that and to a very great extent, we did succeed.
But I want to say that the climax of this problem was solved on the 2nd of May when the women's section pressed hard to the executives of the ANC to put their position vis-a-vis the women in the document. As a result we have a document of the 2nd of May whereby the ANC made its position very, very clearly, how it respects its women, how it expects everybody else to take women as equal partners in the country. That only did not mean just by treating them, it also meant that whenever there were delegations, women should be considered. Whenever there was postings, even abroad, outside the country, women had to be considered, within the executive women had to be considered. Because we believe that the women of our country played a very important role in the struggle for liberation, and I think it is also in addition to their contribution, that today we are enjoying the dispensation in which we are enjoying today. Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, Ronnie Kasrils would also like to comment on the same question.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Chairperson, I would like to first of all say that in the ranks of Umkhonto weSizwe, right from its inception in 1961, we had women combatants, women had - we had great respect for women in Umkhonto weSizwe. This was the case right throughout. I am stressing this because obviously Ms Mkhize is focusing on an area which did exist, but we are focusing here on would like to bring this to your attention that any oppression that might have taken place or abuse of women, was not part and parcel of the everyday occurrence. This was something that would have been hidden.
Women, as I have said, had a position of very high respect in our camps. When it became noted, it was brought to our attention that certain abuses were taking place behind the scenes, as Comrade Joe Modise has pointed out, action was taken. It culminated with Comrade Gertrude Shope and others being brought in to assist in dealing with something that we would not tolerate.
The councillor has also asked, as I understand the question, as to what we have done to ensure that the right of women is recognised, and this should be in the military, I presume.
We are talking here about the ANC and the ANC has taken great steps within its ranks, but the Ministry of Defence, this government, ANC-led government, have taken very definite steps in this regard. We have had a gender conference within the defence force, to focus on these issues.
We have an Equal Opportunity Affirmative Action Directorate to look at the issue, not just of gender question, but of the whole total problem. We have an educational programme within the defence force which deals with civic education, including the need for gender sensitivity. All of that has been brought about through our experience within Umkhonto weSizwe over the years. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.