Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman I don't have it with me but we do have a photocopy and we can make copies available.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  In view of the fact that we have unfortunately, for inexplicable reasons already lost time, we will rise now and come back at quarter past eleven.  Mr Dukada would you please be kind enough to make the necessary copies and make them available to Mr Knight and presumably the other members of the legal representatives so that when we come back at quarter past eleven we can proceed without any further interruptions.  Is that the only document that you need Mr.

MR KNIGHT: Yes it is Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we will rise then.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knight have you been furnished with a copy of the post-mortem report?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman I have been furnished with a copy of the post-mortem report.  However during the tea adjournment the legal representatives of the family approached me with a request that they would prefer it if they would be permitted, of course with your consent, to proceed with cross examination and then for myself to follow.
	I have no objection to that and if that is what they wish I'm happy to oblige.

CHAIRPERSON: What's the rationale for that sequence.  I mean shouldn't you, because you're the next one in line proceed with the cross examination?  Is there any specific reason for the departure from.

MR MACHOKWENE: Mr Chairman I was just asking my colleague if it's not possible for us to begin first with cross examination but there is no specific rationale or any reason as such if.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knight will you proceed please.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dandala, may I remind you that you are still under oath.  Yes, Mr Knight?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: (s.u.o.)

MR KNIGHT: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Dandala, at the time in 1985 what was the situation with the South African Police in the Transkei?  Were they permitted to operate within the Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: They had no permission to operate in Transkei.  If they so wanted, they had to get permission and get police from Transkei accompanying them.

MR KNIGHT: And was that the purpose of your involvement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes that was the purpose.  Colonel Booi had said that I was supposed to assist them when they came to operate here in Transkei.

MR KNIGHT: And what would the function be if South African Police were looking for a suspect.  What would the procedure normally be to facilitate for that person's arrest?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Police from Transkei would accompany those from South Africa to go and arrest such a person or the Transkeian Police only would go and arrest that person and hand that person over to South Africa.

MR KNIGHT: So is it correct to say that the South African Police didn't have jurisdiction in the Transkei at the time?  They would work under the auspices of the Transkeian Police?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, it was okay for them to work in Transkei but they had to be accompanied by those of Transkei.

MR KNIGHT: Now, when you were in, it was Barkly East, you were then divided into a group with Braam Moss, Mr Shabalala, the woman called Shosha and Mr Shabalala, is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you, I'm getting to my next question.  Can you accurately, you know you said in your evidence in chief that you have a very firm recollection of that day but bearing in mind the years that have past, if Mr Shabalala has a different recollection what transpired, would you be prepared to concede that in certain instances you might have, it might be a possibility that everybody's memory is failing in the sense that it's an event that occurred fourteen years ago?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I would concede that a person's memory is fallible.

MR KNIGHT: Yes.  To proceed to the time when the incident took place, what led you to believe that people like, for instance Mr Shabalala as well as Braam Moss were not in fact police officers?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: They themselves told me after I had asked as to whether all of us were policemen.

MR KNIGHT: Would it surprise you to note that they were in fact police officers?  I'm not referring to Shosha but I'm referring specifically to Mr Shabalala and to Captain Braam Moss?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That would surprise me because they told me that they were not policemen.

MR KNIGHT: And do you recall when the South African Police operated in the Transkei and with your assistance that the vehicles would have false registration numbers?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes that did sometimes happen that cars would be driven with false registration numbers.

MR KNIGHT: What to your mind was the purpose of that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: To prevent identification as police vehicles.

MR KNIGHT: To keep their operations in the Transkei secret in other words?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR KNIGHT: Now, returning to the incident that took place, when you went to Xala and approached the, you in your statement said that you went to a police station to find out the whereabouts of the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: To the security offices.

MR KNIGHT: To the security offices?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible] firstly to introduce themselves to the security branch there that they were present in the area and also to establish the whereabouts of the deceased.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman.  From there you went to the deceased's house where he then came out?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR KNIGHT: When he entered into the vehicle, do you have a recollection of having closed the door after he entered and putting the door on a lock so it couldn't be opened from the inside?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The door was closed by the deceased because he entered while we were sitting inside and he closed the door behind him.  He closed the door himself.

MR KNIGHT: He closed the door himself?  Can you accurately remember precisely, apart from the fact that Captain Moss was driving the vehicle but the actual seating of the persons?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Sorry.

MR KNIGHT: Can you accurately recall where everyone was seated?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR KNIGHT: Because Mr Shabalala's recollection is that Shosha was in fact sitting in the front seat?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can recall clearly.  Shabalala was on the passenger's seat and Braam Moss was driving the kombi.  I was seated behind him and Shosha was in the back seat of the kombi.

MR KNIGHT: Well unfortunately Braam Moss and Shosha are both deceased at this point but Mr Shabalala will say that he has a different recollection of the seating, where everyone was seated.  In fact he says that it was Shosha who was sitting in front.  With regard to the, just before the deceased attempted to jump out of the window or in fact managed eventually to jump out of the window, your evidence was that this was as a result of yourselves identifying yourselves as a police officer.
	Did it also have anything to do with the fact that at that time he recognised Shosha?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It could be that point.

MR KNIGHT: Because Mr Shabalala will say that it was at the time that, on his recollection, it was at the time that Shosha in fact identified herself to the, or not identified herself but was recognised by the deceased that he then suddenly realised that there was something wrong and he started to shiver.  Do you recall, do you have a recollection of him shivering in the car or shaking with nervousness?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.  Because he was just behind me.

MR KNIGHT: He was behind you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.  I didn't see any shivering.

MR KNIGHT: Did you have your eyes on him at the time?