Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Towards the end of my period at the Anti-Terrorist Unit.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What year would that be?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am thinking that I left the Anti-terrorist Unit round about 1990, it could have been in 1990 or 1989.  And then I request the Committee that this is purely on memory, I may be wrong with the years.

MS INTHANGA: A lot of people were mentioning by the victims you tortured.  Their names appear on the document you were given by Mr Gary Kruse and in that document there is a page which deals with a list of people who belonged to the Special Interrogation Team.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I presume it is this one, Ma'am?

MS INTHANGA: Yes.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MS INTHANGA: The list goes to 15.  I would like you to look at the names and try to refresh your memory as to whether - were any of those people present when you tortured the victims who were trying to get you to give information as to who else was present during their tortures?  	Have you recognised any name Mr Benzien?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I see a Kotze here as a Detective Constable, possibly and then there is a Constable Van Zyl, Uniform Branch as well as a Sergeant Van Zyl, Uniform Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your question?

MS INTHANGA: Mr Chairman, I was trying to get Mr Benzien to identify any other names other than the ones he mentioned here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS INTHANGA: In the event of their names coming up with his name again in other incidents of torture, on information that we have in the Investigative Unit.  My next question to you Mr Benzien is, on the inquest of Mr Kriel, I will ask a question on this based on the information you submitted here yesterday.  When you brought in the inquest as the strength to your application.  In that inquest you were found not to have wrongfully killed Mr Kriel.
	I will like to ask if you remember the evidence given by Dr Klatzow at the inquest?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was there when Dr Klatzow gave evidence.

MS INTHANGA: Do you remember what his opinion was of the facts you gave of how the accident occurred?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Ma'am.  I cannot remember his findings, but in all fairness to the Kriel family and to the Truth Commission, approximately a week after the Kriel inquest, after Mr Klatzow, with all respect to the gentleman had informed the court that he had done experiments on the heads of pigs using the same material that came from the deceased, Mr Kriel, he gave that as fact to the court, I was phoned by a gentleman having the shooting range under the Groote Schuur, next to the Groote Schuur church in Cape Town, and he had read this in the newspaper and he said that Mr Klatzow did the tests on the Saturday morning in that gun range, using cloth that he had used for cleaning firearms.
	The point I am trying to make here, with all respect to Mr Klatzow, and this is on not written authority, is that I know Mr Klatzow had contrary beliefs to the State ballistics expert and it would appear that Mr Klatzow had then slightly tailored his evidence.	But maybe I was out of order putting this to the Commission.

MS INTHANGA: Do you know what those beliefs were Mr Benzien in regard to his conclusions about the Ashley Kriel matter?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Ma'am, not.

MS INTHANGA: Can I put it to you that Dr Klatzow submitted that he found your facts of the incidents improbable on the grounds that if you had shot Mr Kriel at short range, the muzzle that comes our of a gun, would have been on the victim's body, and the clothes would have been torn in the manner it was torn, it was just a hole.  Do you remember that information?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Ma'am, I cannot remember that I read scientific results.  What I do know is that the inquest was conducted by a Magistrate assisted by numerous experts and the court came to the conclusion of the experts.  I am not unfortunately, I cannot elaborate on this any further.

MS INTHANGA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cook, tomorrow morning we will commence and afford you an opportunity to re-examine your witness?

UNKNOWN: I will appreciate it Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We will adjourn now and resume at nine o'clock tomorrow morning.  Mr Papier, you will be able to call witnesses tomorrow after we have finished.

MR PAPIER: That is correct Honourable Chair.  I just have one request to make.  I have a sum total of four questions that the family would want me to in fact put to the witness and I would beg leave to in fact ask the witness those four questions tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to rely on your professional integrity in this regard and I will not allow you to ask questions that had already been covered in some way or the other.

MR PAPIER: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is something that has not been covered, I will afford you that opportunity, but then Mr Cook, you will re-examine your witness after that.

MR PAPIER: As the Chair pleases, I am indebted to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: And remember it was four questions.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION AT 09H00
JEFFERY T. BENZIEN: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, are you ready to proceed with your questions to this witness?

MR PAPIER: I am Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PAPIER: Captain Benzien, there are just two aspects I would like to clarify with you.  You have indicated under oath that the area where the entire incident took place with regard to Ashley Kriel, took place outside the house or at least in the doorway.  Is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Your Worship.

MR PAPIER: And after you had shot Ashley Kriel and slumped to the ground, was his body moved at all by you?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: From the, if I can remember correctly, from the doorframe to slightly back.  He initially, initially collapsed in the doorway.

MR PAPIER: Was there any activity for example torturing or assaults or any incident that could cause the shedding of blood inside the house?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not at all Your Worship.

MR PAPIER: More specifically in the kitchen, down the corridor, the passage leading into the bathroom?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not at all, Your Worship.

MR PAPIER: I put it to you that blood was found in the kitchen, down the corridor as if someone was dragged down the corridor, leading to the bathroom where blood stained clothes were found in the bathroom after the incident.  Can you shed any light on this?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not at all Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: When the ambulance arrived to remove him, were you present?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, where was he removed from?  Was he removed from somewhere inside the house?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, no, Your Worship, from the time of the shooting, he hadn't entered the house at all.

MR PAPIER: I have no further questions, Honourable Chair and I am indebted to you for the opportunity to ask these questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PAPIER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Papier.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Benzien, you were given instructions according to your statement to go to that address to go and establish whether the deceased had returned or was there.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Worship, not directly to that address, although the statements mention that specific number, it is in that area.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, in that area.  Yes, but the crux of my question is that you were supposed to go and see whether the deceased was there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Your Worship.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why didn't you do just that?  Why didn't you remain within the framework of the instructions?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The situation changed once the deceased opened the door Your Worship.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was Abels a Security Policeman as well, I gather?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Abels?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Abels?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What did he take the handcuffs for?