Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I can recall that I looked at it, maybe I opened it to see if there's some dirt between the contact points of the batteries.  I know that I had the mechanism in my hand and I accept that it's possible that I looked at the battery, but I did not change them.

MR LAX: You see again you say "maybe I did this, maybe it's possible I did that", either you have a clear recollection of taking the batteries out, fiddling, cleaning the contacts, putting them back in, checking the pad.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I wouldn't have taken the batteries out.  What I'm saying is I opened the back of the calculator and just turned the batteries around, in all probability, but I did not take it out.

MR LAX: But you see my problem is, either you remember it or you don't, the rest is speculation.  If you don't remember it, then you're saying "well maybe I did this or maybe I did that, anything's possible."

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Apart from replacing the batteries, that I definitely remember not doing.

MR LAX: Yes, but do you remember opening the back and turning the batteries?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: So then it's not a question of it's possible that you did that, you did it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did do it, yes.

MR HOCKEY: What made you to decide that there was nobody in the building?  What happened?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Could you just repeat your question.

MR HOCKEY: What made you to conclude that there were no people in the building?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The fact that Mr Hardien told Mr van Zyl that there were not people in the building and that we could not see any vehicles in the parking lot.

MR HOCKEY: The only thing that happened was, according to you, that you saw people coming out of the building and names were put to faces.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is so.

MR HOCKEY: Now in this regard you testified yesterday that you had to go on the word of Mr Hardien.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR HOCKEY: But now the factual situation is, Mr Botha, that there were people in the building when the bomb was detonated and evidence will be called to that effect.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, within my framework, Mr van Zyl took the necessary precautions to ensure that there were not people in the building.  If you say that there were people in the building, I will say to you as I've differed from Mr Bizos yesterday, that I cannot dispute it, I'm not in a position to dispute it.   I'm saying that I'm basing it on the precautions that were taken by Mr van Zyl and I'll base it on the discussions Mr van Zyl had with Mr Hardien, and his relationship with him worked that Mr van Zyl trusted him in that he conveyed the truth to him and afterwards the bomb was detonated.

MR HOCKEY: Did you see that there are statements amongst these statements that were given to your legal counsel, that there were people inside that building that had nothing to do with any political organisation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I heard it in evidence, yes.

MR HOCKEY: There were people there that attended a soccer meeting.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Karate or soccer.

MR HOCKEY: Sorry?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Karate or soccer?

MR HOCKEY: A soccer meeting, and these people were inside the building at the time that the bomb was detonated.  Are you aware of that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I heard the evidence in front of the Commission and I'd like to express my regret concerning that, I was not aware of it, but if you say that to me I've got no choice but to accept that it's possibly so.

MR HOCKEY: Do you also accept that members of the Kewtown Youth Movement and of other youth movements in the region were still inside the building when the bomb was detonated?  Are you prepared to accept that as well?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I can go on what was told to me, that the Kewtown Youth Movement left the building.  That was conveyed to Mr van Zyl.  I just listened to this conversation, it was directly mentioned to me.

MR HOCKEY: But I'm asking you whether you're prepared to accept today.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If you can give me proof, I cannot deny it.

MR HOCKEY: There are statements to that effect, taken by the police.  These statements are all in possession of your counsel, that there's a number of people that were inside the building when the bomb went off, and you're saying you still, you're still looking for evidence to that effect before you accept it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I accept what you are saying to me.  If you say it's so, I've got no choice but to accept it.

MR HOCKEY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOCKEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hockey.  Before I get to you, Mr Kahanovitz - Mr Rheede, any questions you'd like to put?

MR RHEEDE: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR RHEEDE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This is an addendum to Mr Bizos, you're not starting fresh?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Most definitely not, no it's arising out of - you don't need to be that worried.

CHAIRPERSON: I also want to give Ms Coleridge a chance.  I don't know if you want to do it after her or before.  You may as well do it now.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now Mr Botha, could you just ask you counsel to give you a copy of Exhibit K, the photographs, and could you just look at photograph number 23.

MS COLERIDGE: It's Exhibit N, for the record.

CHAIRPERSON: It was initially K, remember, we kept changing it and it ended up being Exhibit N, N for Nellie.  Photo number?

MR KAHANOVITZ: It's 23.  Can I proceed?  Mr Chairman, if you could just indicate to me when you've got to the appropriate place so I might proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: I've got the photo here.  This is the photo, you can see a curve in the wall?

MR KAHANOVITZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The big hole in the wall, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Botha, I want to ask you a question now on the assumption that your evidence is correct that this limpet mine was not doctored to add shrapnel, and let's assume for the sake of this question, that this limpet mine was never doctored.  Now if you look at the kind of damage that that limpet caused to this wall, I assume you will agree with me that the force of the explosion was certainly capable of killing people?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, Sir.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can we take that further and say that the force of that explosion would be capable of killing more than one person?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you'll agree with me if one had wanted to kill people using this particular limpet mine there was no necessity to first doctor that by adding additional shrapnel?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you've already testified that you were called by pager to come to this meeting in Johannesburg, where you received your instructions to travel to Cape Town with Slang van Zyl, correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right, Sir.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now did Staal Burger say anything to you and to Mr van Zyl after you arrived at that meeting, as to whether loss of life was envisaged?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He did not say it to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So he said absolutely nothing, for example, to the effect that: "Look, you must try and make sure that no-one is injured or killed, but if someone is injured or killed by mistake, then that is acceptable to the CCB?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The exact details I cannot recall, I understand that he told me that the limpet mine had to be detonated.  That was Mr van Zyl's project, the project was approved and that's what I was interested in.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No I'd like you to answer the question, because this isn't vague detail, I'm assuming you would want to be very clear on what the attitude of your superiors was to potential loss of life.  Do you agree with me?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was more focused on the fact that we received the instruction to set of the bomb.