Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that's what I am explaining.

MR BERGER: Were you forced into the attack?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot say if there was force used, I was not forced.

MR BERGER: Page 37, paragraph 5, you say
"After a few minutes, Mr Quanqua told all of us at the meeting to go and fetch our traditional weapons.   We did as he told us because there was no-one amongst us who could disagree with him.   All of us were afraid of him."

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What do you want me to say to that?

MR BERGER: Did you go on the attack because you were afraid of the consequences which would come to you if you refused to go on the attack?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, as I have explained that I was not forced, I think that is the most appropriate answer.

MR BERGER: When then do you say
"We did as he told us because there was no-one amongst us who could disagree with him, all of us were afraid of him."
Are you not saying here that if you were not afraid of him, you would have disagreed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, how would I have disagreed with him, because he is my elder and our people were being tortured and harassed at Boipatong?

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, what then did you mean by the two sentences
"We did as he told us because there was no-one amongst us who could disagree with him.  All of us were afraid of him"?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think you are asking this for the third time and I still have just one response to the question.

MR BERGER: So your answer is, you were not afraid of Mr Quanqua?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, you must realise that being afraid of a person and respecting him are two very different things.
I should have listened to him, because he was my elder.  I regarded him as a respected person because he was my elder.  When he said something, I should have listened to him because he was my elder.  I think that when Mr Berger's father talks to him, he listens, because he is older than he is.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, my difficulty is what you say at page 37, paragraph 5.   Am I to understand your evidence that you were not afraid of Mr Quanqua?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was not afraid of him, but I respected him.

MR BERGER: You were not afraid of the men from Umsinga either?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I was afraid of them.

MR BERGER: And they were part of this attack on Boipatong, were they not?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And if you were not a part of this attack, were you not then risking yourself that the men from Umsinga might take action against you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: If they were to take action, they would be doing what they thought was best.

MR BERGER: Let me ask you this question, did you go on the attack because you were afraid of the men from Umsinga?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I went because our people were being killed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Not because you were afraid of the men from Umsinga?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that Iscor is a factory that works 24 hours a day?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know about that, sir.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry I didn't get the full interpretation of what the witness said?

INTERPRETER: The witness said he would not know about that.

MR BERGER: Let me read certain things to you.   Your lawyers at the criminal trial made certain submissions on your behalf.   At page 78 of their heads of argument, they say that
"Iscor is a factory which works 24 hours a day."
You, as an employee of Iscor, would have known that, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I was working at Iscor, I knew of only my working hours of my shift.   I was concentrated on what I was responsible for or what I did, not the entire company, as such.

MR BERGER: The tarred road in front of the hostel is used 24 hours a day and it is lit, there are lights there at night.   Can you confirm that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know which road you are referring to.

MR BERGER: The very road that you took to Boipatong.   You said you came out of the front of the hostel, you walked along that road, under a bridge, to Boipatong.   That road is used 24 hours a day and it is lit at night.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I hear what you're saying.

MR BERGER: There are security personnel who patrol the area on a 24 hour basis, and the Vaal Commando also patrols the area, that's the army, and they, the words used here are "begelei skofte", they transport or accompany, accompany shifts who are coming off from work to and from the hostel, in other words there's constant activity, the Vaal Commando is there, the security personnel from Iscor are there, you can't dispute any of that, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I will not dispute it.   That is what you are telling me.

MR BERGER: Now, I want to read to you what was said at 79 on your behalf.   It was submitted, and perhaps I should read the Afrikaans
"Dit word respekvol gesubmiteer dat dit uiters onwaarskynlik is dat hierdie roete..."
this is the route in front of the hostel, or out of the main gate:-
"...gevolg sou gewees het deur die aanvallers.  Veel eerder sou 'n klandestiene roete wat deur die agterkant van die hostel kon gelei het gevolg gewees het of daar sou by 'n voorafgereelde plek byeengekom gewees het."
Now, according to you, you didn't go out the back of the hostel, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, we used the main gate.

MR BERGER: And you didn't come together at a pre-planned place either?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not have knowledge about that, sir.

MR BERGER: The submissions go on to say
"Verder sou veel eerder gebruik gemaak gewees het van voertuie wat aanvallers aan die agterkant van Slovo Park kon aflaai."
In other words, more probably vehicles were used to transport the attackers to the back of Slovo Park?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge of that, sir.

MR BERGER: Now you see, my questions come down to this, you are not telling the truth when you say that police vehicles were not used to transport some of the attackers?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: If that is the case, sir, do you mean that since I did not see a police vehicle nor being in one, it must be different people who were attacking that area, not us, is that what you mean?

CHAIRPERSON: What he is putting to you and what you must answer is that he's saying you are not telling the truth when you say that police motor vehicles were not used to transport the attackers.   What do you say to that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I say I have no knowledge of that, sir.

MR BERGER: And you are not telling the truth when you say that the police, the defence force, and I'm going to add as well, as though you haven't said it, Iscor, were not aware of the fact that the attackers were moving from the hostel towards Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no comment on that.

MR BERGER: Well, let's take Iscor.   On your number 330 heavily armed men with pangas and axes and AK-47's, come out of the main gate of Kwamadala Hostel and move in the direction of Boipatong, and they go directly past a 24 hour security, Iscor security, are you saying that you could not have been seen, or perhaps the security might have missed you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: With regards to that, sir, I think you may not know where the main gate is at Kwamadala and where the security force gates or their offices are.

MR BERGER: You see, Mr Mthembu, it was argued on your behalf at the trial that the attackers could not have come out of the main gate, because if they had done so, they would have been seen by the security personnel, by the Vaal Commando, by any number of security forces, that's what was argued on your behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Mthembu, having regard to the route that you say you used on the day in question, did you go past Iscor security?