Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-06

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: So it follows that while the principal target of the attack was the corner, damage was done to both the Magoo's and the rest of the building.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes.  Whilst the most damage was done to the Why Not, there was other damage elsewhere.

MR RICHARD: Different sorts of damage.  Higher up windows only were blown in, or blown out.

MR MCBRIDE: What is the question, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's also fairly - the further you're going to get away from it the less the damage is going to be.

MR RICHARD: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Some is going to be broken windows, others not.

MR RICHARD: So my point is, is it not, and my question is, was not that building attacked?

MR MCBRIDE: I didn't get that, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Did that building form the object of an attack through the medium of a car bomb?

JUDGE PILLAY: Are you referring to the building where the Why Not was situated?  Well I think it stands to reason.

MR RICHARD: I return to Exhibit D.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that again, Mr Richard, Exhibit D?  That's the Russian and Afrikaans.  Yes, we haven't got it but I think - Mr Prior, if you could arrange for copies please, thank you.

MR RICHARD: Now I've heard your comment about Afrikaans being typed onto the form, but apart from the Afrikaans type typing, what is that form?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't recall exactly now, but it was for one of the fuses we used.  It was the different lead plates for different fuses.

MR RICHARD: Now it's a sheet which sets out, if one can read Russian, the different types of fuses that go into landmines and the time periods depending on the temperature.

MR MCBRIDE: Not landmines, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Limpet mines.

MR DEHAL: Well I'm afraid I can't accept that, Mr Chairperson, I don't read Russian, I don't know whether Mr Richard does.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think let Mr McBride answer the question because I think Mr McBride himself earlier said that Exhibit D relates to the time fuses on limpet mines.  I don't think it's in dispute.  Is it, Mr McBride?  I mean the red, white and blue, you're referred to it.

MR MCBRIDE: Ja, I've seen something similar to this amongst the explosives, ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now I think your comment was it's the insert to the packaging that a limpet mine comes with.  Now if one looks ...(intervention)

MR DEHAL: Sorry, he said it comes with the fuses, as an insert on the fuses, not ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But if you can just get ...

MR RICHARD: If somebody is familiar with that chart, my question is, from it can you calculate how long it will be after putting in the lead plate at a given temperature?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, that's what it's supposed to be.

MR RICHARD: And it tells you does it not, that if the temperature is higher the limpet mine goes off sooner?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, because the lead is softer, so it cuts through quicker.

MR RICHARD: And it also tells us that unless you have a static temperature and a stable temperature, the timing of landmines - sorry, I've got landmines, not landmines, limpet mines might be unpredictable.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, it gives you a range, it doesn't give you exact times, the range under certain atmospheric conditions.

MR RICHARD: Now the timing device that you inserted into the car bomb outside the Parade Hotel, did it work on a similar basis?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, a similar basis, yes.

MR RICHARD: Now from the time that you pulled the pin, or whatever the equivalent on a limpet mine is, on that day how much time did you have before it went off?

MR MCBRIDE: I used the one - I see it's not marked on here, a yellow one, which is the shortest time, five to fifteen under general South African weather conditions.

MR RICHARD: ...(inaudible)

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Now I've read elsewhere that you had a special technique putting the fuse and the lead plates in, you used epoxy glue.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: Did you do it on this occasion?

MR MCBRIDE: Every occasion I used it on.

MR RICHARD: And the purpose of that?

MR MCBRIDE: So it cannot be defused.

MR RICHARD: Now in the case of the Pine Street Parkade, did you also use epoxy?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What would have been the object of putting epoxy on the outside if it couldn't go off?

MR MCBRIDE: So they can think that it's one of the same type that will not be defused.

MR RICHARD: In fact to leave your trademark not on.  It's not incorrect.

MR MCBRIDE: In a way, yes.  I met the guy who used to try to defuse ...(indistinct) things at a later stage, not under very pleasant circumstances.

MR RICHARD: Now one of the statements made was to the effect that on other occasions you had left a vehicle packed with equipment for another unit to collect.  Now when you say another unit, was it another Special Operations unit or was it another MK unit?

MR DEHAL: Just to correct the record, that's not what Mr McBride said, he said that is what was believed, he thinks by Greta Apelgren and Matthew Lecordier, in that within the confines of their belief, not knowing the target, not knowing the car bomb, they perceived this as being an operation where a car was being delivered to another unit.  That's different from the present proposition.

CHAIRPERSON: You said in another part of your statement, what were you referring to, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: My question is, did you supply equipment to other units?

MR MCBRIDE: No, we were in the process of doing it, in which Greta and Matthew were involved in, when we prepared a DLB as per instructions and to answer your other question, for another unit that would have infiltrated at a later stage.

MR RICHARD: Now would it be ordinary to leave a car full of equipment, explosives, guns, parked outside a beachfront pub?

MR MCBRIDE: I don't know where you are getting that perception from, I certainly haven't created that perception.

MR RICHARD: Well if people with you had the impression that that was happening, my question is, is it a reasonable act to do, to have that as the drop-off point for the vehicle?

MR MCBRIDE: I don't know from whose point of view.  As an operative you can leave it anywhere.  You're working underground, you can leave it anywhere, in a public place, in a - I mean it's speculative.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, I also don't see the relevance of this line.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it comes from the fact that Mr McBride mentioned that at one stage Ms Apelgren and Mr Lecordier were under the belief that they were going to leave the car to be picked up.  And the question was whether that would be a reasonable place to leave the car.  But we've got the answer, any place, it could be left anywhere.

MR DEHAL: But in any case, what's more common cause is that there was a bomb, there was an explosion.

MR RICHARD: It goes to the question of knowledge, but I don't take the point further.  It was a question that arose out of the statement.
	Chairperson, my position is, what I would like to do is have an opportunity to consider a number more of the volumes of the record.  I don't believe I will need to ask more questions, but I would like to reserve my rights and I would also like to consider what the book ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Those extracts, yes.  So would you like a temporary suspension to your cross-examination at this stage?

MR RICHARD: I believe that provided it's no prejudice to anyone, if I would so to speak have a second bit at the cherry after Mr Prior has finished.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Prior, do you have any questions?

ADV PRIOR: I have one or two questions.
	Mr McBride, in respect of the Edendale matter, the fact that you took weapons into the, firearms into the hospital local, you anticipated some resistance from the guards that you knew were there.