Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-11

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Ja, two reasons.  I was concerned about the security situation of the company and of my friends still present in the company.  And you must also know that in - when we started these companies in the early '80's, Chemical Biological Warfare wasn't outlawed okay.  It was only outlawed in the early 1990's, '92 or '93 these things were being outlawed.
 Which - and I still feel up till today, a responsibility for the scientists I got involved into the company.  They were people, good people and I felt a responsibility toward them.  And I felt that if this thing is busting open or whatever, it could seriously affect their careers.  So, that was the one thing.  I was concerned then to the knowledge that came to me where I was sitting in the bush from these people.  I was concerned about the security of the company.
 Secondly, I was phoned from overseas, out of the blue, and say: "Look, we are interested.  We understand Roodeplaat Enterprises might be for sale in 1992.  We are interested in buying it.  We will be interested in buying it if you are Managing Director or not Managing  Director but managing in it again.  And then I have these two reasons to say: "But gee, it might be an opportunity".
 Look, in 1992 it was in the height of El Nino, we had no rain, I had no crops, I had no money, nothing.  So then I said: but you're out of it, how do you get back?  How do you in a positive way?  I don't want to do anyone any harm or whatever but if this thing is for sale, why can't I be involved in it. And I knew Roelf Meyer, so I talked to him.  
 And then we said, okay, Niel Knobel is the man in charge, speak to him and I spoke to them and then nothing happened so I was finished, I wasn't involved any further then.  ...(tape ends)

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: What happened really is also known but that I found out later, the next contact which I had.

MR CHASKALSON: Would you tell us about that?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: The next contact which I had then with the company was in 1994, when again I was phoned one day by an advocate, no I've seen in the newspaper the day first, I opened this newspaper in 1994, December, round about there and in this newspaper there was an admittance by the government that they were involved in clandestine companies running, doing Biological Chemical Warfare, defensive.
 So I said to my wife: "Interesting, this is the biggest secret of the government but here it's coming out".  The next day the phone rang and an advocate something spoke to me and said: "Are you Dr Goosen"? and I said: "Yes".  He said: "Are you the founder member of that company"?  I said: "What", I said: "Ja".  "Were you the Managing Director and the founder of the company", I said: "Yes".  He said: "I want to speak to you", I said: "Wait, who are you"?  He said: "No, I can't tell you".  I said: "Wait" and what did I do, I phoned General Knobel and I said: "General, this is what happened, what's up"?  So he said: "Daan, great stuff, you can relax now.  This thing is out in the open now.  We have told, President Mandela had a brief input so you guys can now relax, everything is in the open, we have told him everything".  I said: "Thank God, I'm happy for that, at last".
 And I said: "This guy, what now about this guy, I don't know what is his angle is"?  So he(?) said: "Okay, I'll speak to him and find out what is going on and get back to the General"

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just come in here?  Mr Chaskalson, do you have an idea how much longer you want to be with this witness, taking into account cross-examination, taking into account two other witness whom we want to hear today?

MR CHASKALSON: I do not expect to be much longer.

CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't tell me anything Mr Chaskalson.

MR CHASKALSON: 20 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Can I ask you Dr Goosen, do you know who this advocate was?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: This advocate was from the Office of le Roux, ...[indistinct] Cilliers and they were representing an employee of the company who was building a case against the company for doing him in on some money.  They presented us then with a lot of documentation, which is available, which can be verified and which is authentic, of the dissolving of the company.  In fact it boiled down to the following, I'll be very brief and keep it very simple because that's what happened.
 The Defence Force, they established these facilities with tax payers money, 100%.  In the region, the initial costs were six and a half million rands for the building, equipped and up and running for nearly 30 million, run from '83 to '92 at more or less the cost of seven million to ten million a year, all government's money.  The income from projects in this company never exceeded 10% of the running cost.  It was never really an effort to really get private contracts which was not surprising.  
 In the end the company was sold to a few employees for the amount of R100 000.  Initially Dr Swanepoel - and I see you've got it in some of these documents, Dr Swanepoel's share would have been 75% and the personnel would have been 25%.  Due to the interference of some of the personnel his shares were brought down to 50%.  He said yesterday he received four and a half million rands for his 50% share, which cost him fifty thousand.
 There was also another company in the end, by the liquidation of this company which received another four and half thousand, Contra Cedar Holdings ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Four and a half million.

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Four and a half million.  So Swanepoel Trust received four and a half million, Contra Cedar Holdings received four and a half million, the owners, shareholders or whatever, Contra Cedar Holding, Swanepoel again.  So in the end he received close to nine million rands, okay?  Close to nine million rands.
 Now, if he had his 75% share he would have got another four and a half million rands.  Now, Mr Chairman, I'm just interested, is that not reason enough to be sour also?  Anyway, this astounded me, that tax payers money could have been given to people and being sold off.  
 Now in the end when they liquidated it, they sold the facility back to the government, back to the government Chairman, for another eight or twelve million rand, I'm not sure what that figure is.  It is available, you can look in the government's records, and they shared the money between nine of them.  This to me was really astounding.  I was shocked.

MR CHASKALSON: Dr Goosen, sorry to interrupt you, I'm just a little bit pressed for time, I'd like to move on.  Do you know General Neethling?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you tell us how you know the General?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: The General and I are married family.  He is married to the sister of my first wife which was my first late wife's mother and we were friends.

MR CHASKALSON: Did the General ever visit RRL?

ADRIAAN JACOBUS GOOSEN: We are still friends, sorry.  Yes, the General visited RRL.  He visited RRL on two occasions, the first one was in connection with the testing of some gases which we wanted to be used in apparently riot control, on the baboons, someone referred to it previously.
 The second time he visited as far as I know, to the, as a guest of Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises inspecting or visiting the facilities and looking at what we're doing as we were clients then.  In the end RBE, Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises was transferred to the police which was under his, I think, jurisdiction.  He can vouch for that.  Which I think was very good. It is still being utilised very good for the government at the moment.

MR CHASKALSON: Did the General have any other involvement with the programme or activities that took place at Roodeplaat?