Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-13

ADV SANDI: Who was the family pathologist?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: A Doctor Wagner from the Orange Free State.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Again I would like to go back to Ralo because Ralo had been my husband's bodyguard and he knew that he was trusted by my husband.  When President Mandela came to the Ciskei in 1990, I asked Ralo about my husband's safety.  He lifted up his jersey and showed me his waist.  His belt was full of hand grenades.
 And he said if Colonel was threatened in any way, I would die before him.   When I told my husband that he was impressed.  And so I think when Ralo was sent to Stutterheim to meet my husband, they knew that they were sending somebody whom he trusted and he denied that.

ADV SANDI: Nazo who was together with Mr Nohashe, the one who said he was a Mayor, do you know his full names?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: No, I don't know them.

ADV SANDI: We met two or three Nazo's in the statements we received.  Can you please physically describe him?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Well, he had some weight, light complexioned, what I noticed about him was his uncomfortable position, he was sweating and he complained about his high blood and he drink a lot of blood, that is what I know about him and I wouldn't know why he was involved in that.  And when the others went for the meeting, he didn't join them, they said he was a civilian.
 Then again my husband's position in that field, there was a video cassette that was played in the inquest, is in three positions, he is in four positions actually.  One position he has got his head leaning against the right window and I couldn't understand why that window was closed because they couldn't have shot, fired at the roadblock with a window closed.  It should have been opened, but it was closed.
 The next position, he is leaning against the passenger seat, the third one, he is leaning over the steering wheel, the forth one he is laying on the ground, but when he arrived at the District Surgeon, he was already naked.
 Some of his property I haven't recovered yet.  He had an expensive wrist watch that had been given to him by Chinese visitors, while they were still in the military council, that has never been given back to me.  The money that he had in his purse, in his wallet, was never there. 
 Again there was a statement - an announcement - that it was claimed he would have made at Radio Ciskei where it bore his signature and it was proved, I proved it that it was not his signature, and Maqonwolo who had been a journalist of Umtombo here in Bisho, agreed in court that he had written the statement and signed my husband's signature but that was used as a reason for his killing.
 Again in his executive case, he had a diary where he had filled in all the dates that they were supposed to have come for the coup.  He had scratched several Fridays, that diary was never shown in court, in stead they showed a new one for 1991, written in pencil,   my husband never even used a pencil, except if they were having an intake at the Defence Force, otherwise he never used a pencil.

ADV SANDI: Before we can continue, let us hear from Mrs Sebe.  Do you have children Mr Guzana?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Yes, we do.

ADV SANDI: How old are they?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: One is 20, one is going to be  14 in June and the other one has just turned 10.

ADV SANDI: Can you please tell us how this affected your children?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: The older one, when we left for Transkei, soldiers used to come, it was the Security Police, they used to come to our house and question here in the garage.  She was involved in a way because like our clothes, she had to smuggle our clothes to Transkei, taking a risk.
 Then after my husband's death, the older one could understand it, the younger one was only four, but the boy was eight and he had been very close to his father.  Up to today, he never mentions his father's name.  He actually pleaded with me not to come here.
 He pleaded with me not to come here because he doesn't like all this publicity.

ADV SANDI: Mr Guzana, before we proceed to Mrs Sebe, do you have requests to the Commission today concerning this matter?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: You've mentioned some of your requests in your statement.  I would like you to repeat them.

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: The first request because I have kids whom I have to provide with a home and other needs, I need compensation.  Again I would like my son to be counselled and again  because my husband - Gqozo refused to discharge him, although they had forced him to resign, they refused to discharge him as a member of the Defence Force, which means when he died, he was still a full member of the Defence Force, so I deserve everything that should be accorded to a widow of a member of the Defence Force, including the support of my children.
 I demand those because they refused to discharge him.

ADV SANDI: You've made a request concerning Dr Trollop.  You want to know who authorized him to perform a post-mortem on your husband, is that correct?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Yes, I would like to know how, knowing that he was not a pathologist, how they could allow him to touch my husband's body.

ADV SANDI: You've also mentioned another request that you would like to know who killed your husband is that correct?
 Thank you Mrs Guzana.  If you missed out something, you will get a change when my colleagues ask you questions.  Let us now go to Mrs Sebe.
 Mrs Sebe, is there something that you would like to clarify or add in connection with Mrs Guzana's evidence?

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: Yes, although our stories are the same, there is something that I would like to add.  I think it just differs.  My husband managed to run away from the roadblock.
 He stayed home night and day after having run away from the roadblock.  He got to Dwashu the following night.  People were looking for him everywhere, in helicopters and cars.  Brigadier Gqozo appeared on TV being asked that as Charles Sebe had run away, what is going to happen?
 Then Brigadier Gqozo said "seek and destroy" and then yet again, another difference between my testimony and Mrs Guzana's is that my husband survived the roadblock, got to Dwashu and was still well.  He said he had wounds that were very painful.  I think one around the ribs.
 I think it was difficult for him to breathe.

ADV SANDI: Excuse me Mrs Sebe, what is this Dwashu, is it a surname or a village?

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: It is a surname.  My husband knew about this home, because he went to school in Zileni, so he knew the schools there.

ADV SANDI: Did you meet with the Dwashu people and did they tell you what happened after he arrived there?  Or did perhaps divulge anything to them?

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: No, not at the time.  I was not there, but I did hear that Mr Dwashu said that after Charles arrived, he wanted to take him to the clinic, but Charles refused because he knew he was hiding away.
 But we all don't know how he was going to leave the Dwashu home.  However, Mr Dwashu realised that the had to take him to a clinic because there was nothing else he could do for him.

ADV SANDI: Was there a  post-mortem performed on him?