Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, may I just point out on page 2 of Exhibit C, the second paragraph under 1.2, there is a grammatical error, where the sentence reads - or it has to read "my involvement has to be seen against this background as given by Gen Johan van der Merwe as well as Mr Vlok in other hearings before the Amnesty Committee."  We have got all that extracts available, but if it pleases you Mr Chairman, I would submit that it would perhaps be, to spare time, be more appropriate to refer to that in argument before the Committee.  Mr Nortje, can we then just return to the incident.  Can you tell the Committee how you became involved in this so-called Transkei coup or the Duli coup as it is also known?

MR NORTJE: As it pleases you.  Chairperson, as you know, I was at Vlakplaas with Mr De Kock.

MR LAMEY: May I just ask you, what was your rank in 1990?

MR NORTJE: I was a Sergeant.

MR LAMEY: In your amnesty application you mentioned that in January - I refer to page 2 of the supplemented Exhibit B, in January 1991 you were promoted to Warrant Officer, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And at that stage you were a Sergeant?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Was there any mention to you by Mr De Kock?

MR NORTJE: Yes, he mentioned to me that Anton Nieuwoudt and Hendrik van der Westhuizen, they were members of the Defence Force and a coup was planned in the Transkei.

MR LAMEY: Can I just ask you in the following manner, did you Anton Nieuwoudt and Hendrik van der Westhuizen at that stage?

MR NORTJE: Yes, they were regularly in contact with us, there was co-operation with the people of DCC.

MR LAMEY: DCC is not Directorate Covert Co-operation which was a division of Military Intelligence of the Defence Force?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.  He mentioned to me that they requested some weapons from him if the coup would take place, and he gave us instructions to make certain preparations and we collected some of the weapons.

MR LAMEY: May I just ask you, was the name of Mr Duli mentioned at that stage?

MR NORTJE: At that stage, I am not sure, but later it was mentioned.

MR LAMEY: The instruction was that you had to collect weapons, to provide for the purposes of this coup, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.  Mr De Kock then told us that the weapons which we had in our possession at Vlakplaas and other weapons, which we had already delivered at the Police College, we had to collect these weapons and prepare.  We did not have everything at the farm, the mortar pipes we fetched those at the Police College and during some time, it could have been two weeks, we collected these weapons, and we prepared them for the coup and the handing over of the weapons.  With the run up, as I have said, the run up to the operation, Mr De Kock told me that at some stage he would like to meet Mr Duli.

MR LAMEY: May I just ask you, the person who was of assistance at the Police College, this was Major Beneke?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And the other members at Vlakplaas who were involved by Mr De Kock to collect these weapons were also Mr Snor Vermeulen and Mr Snyman?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And later in the amnesty application, you can have a look at it before you describe what these weapons entailed, amongst others AK47's, four RPG missiles, 16 mm mortar pipes, handgrenades and a large quantity of ammunition for all the weapons and I think you say that there were a few LMG machine guns, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And radio's were also provided?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Which you picked up from the Radio Technical division at Police College?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: This brings us to the run up of the operation, can you tell the Committee, at some stage was the name of Duli mentioned?

MR NORTJE: Yes, during the run of time, his name was mentioned, because as I say, we were in constant or Mr De Kock was in constant contact with Nieuwoudt and Van der Westhuizen and according to me, they were the major role players, that is the information that I received.  After he mentioned the meeting that he wanted to have, and I assume that he had spoken to them, because my recollection is that Hendrik van der Westhuizen would arrange this meeting.

MR LAMEY: So you recall that Mr De Kock would arrange a meeting with Mr Craig Duli, is that correct?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And Henry van der Westhuizen was instrumental in the setting up of this meeting?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.  I cannot remember if Anton played a role there, I am not sure, but I remember that Henry van der Westhuizen was the person who arranged that at the Holiday Inn.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Nortje, how do you know that Van der Westhuizen arranged the meeting?

MR NORTJE: I saw him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see him there or hear about it?

MR NORTJE: No, I saw him there.

MR LAMEY: Before the meeting was arranged, you heard that Duli was the person who would be the person who wanted to usurp the government of Holomisa?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And you say that there was a meeting between Colonel De Kock and Craig Duli?

MR NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And this was at the Jan Smuts Holiday Inn?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Were you present there?

MR NORTJE: Yes, I was present.  And when Mr De Kock gave his evidence, I just recalled that he did speak to Mr Duli on the side, and my inference that I drew was that afterwards, what I had heard from him and what he had told me, I know there was a separate discussion between Mr Duli and Mr De Kock, but Mr Duli did not want to speak before anybody else, he wanted to speak to Mr De Kock apart and what Mr De Kock says happened there, I recall that it happened there.

MR LAMEY: And you also mentioned in your statement, there was a certain strategy discussed with regards to advice, with regards to military strategy in this coup?

MR NORTJE: If I see the strategy here, it does not fit.  It was a discussion about what would happen, I would assume, because afterwards he told me that he told him, or he told me that they did not want to involve him, because he wanted to keep it to himself and he did not want to accept his advice.  I did not ask him what he said with regards to the advice.  But this is how I remember.

MR LAMEY: So what you are saying is you were not present, you were present at the meeting, but you did not listen to the discussion between Colonel De Kock and Duli and afterwards you heard from Mr De Kock that Duli did not want to accept the advice, he had already established his own modus operandi?

MR NORTJE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Lamey, I think something needs to be clarified before we go any further.  Did you say you were present whilst Mr De Kock was having a discussion with Mr Duli?

MR NORTJE: I was in the hotel room where Mr Duli was, and where Mr De Kock was, but I was not part of the discussion, I could not hear what they were saying, they were standing apart from where I was.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anybody else at the meeting besides yourself, De Kock and Duli?

MR NORTJE: I would recall that Mr Van der Westhuizen was also in the room.  I cannot specifically say where he sat, but I imagine I was not there by myself, somebody else was with me.

ADV SANDI: Is it therefore the position that whatever you know about what discussion had taken place between Mr De Kock and Mr Duli, is what was conveyed to you by Mr De Kock?

MR NORTJE: I cannot say that he conveyed it word for word, what they had discussed there, but in general, he told me that they did not want to listen to him, he made certain proposals, but they did not want to listen to him.  I assumed that that was the strategy, that is why I use the word strategy, that I say they had their strategy planned already, but apparently it was not so.