Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, you had just been asking about money taken from the shebeen and money they got for petrol.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You can carry on.  You said you had other matters you're now going to carry on with.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, I proceed now with the Da Gama incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you remind the applicant he's still under his former oath.

INTERPRETER: You did not ask this question Sir, so he must be asked a question.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not asking a question, will you remind him that he is still under his former oath.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: (s.u.o.)

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ncamazana, at the Da Gama incident - if I understand you evidence, was the intention to have the bus in a certain position in order to shoot at the passengers alternatively to fire a rifle grenade at the bus?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Our intention was to shoot it with the rifle grenade.

MR PRIOR: Did anyone have hand grenades with them during that operation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, there was one.

MR PRIOR: Yes, because I saw a photograph, I don't have it with me.  There was a hand grenade found near the Honda Ballade after the operation.  Was the intention to throw that hand grenade into the bus?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

MR PRIOR: Right.  And is it so that as chance would have it the bus turned into Da Gama premises and you were unable to effectively carry out that attack?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it was chance was it Mr Prior, that was where the bus always went.  They were a little bit too late to carry out their attack.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No suggestion as I understand it, that the bus took a different course this morning.

MR PRIOR: As chance would have it the bus turned and instead of stopping for traffic from the approach, they turned in with the following vehicle and what I'm trying to suggest to the witness is that the operation in that respect failed because they weren't able to effectively shoot at the bus as they intended.  I think he's answered that Mr Chairman.
	When the Da Gama attack was planned, was the premises - was any observation kept, was any reconnoitring done by your unit before this day?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We knew the whole method of our attack.

MR PRIOR: Did you also know that the Da Gama textile factory also had security on the premises?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not know about that, I do not know about those I was walking with.

MR PRIOR: From that do I understand that there was no discussion amongst yourselves in the unit that there was possibly risks to your own safety should the Da Gama bus be attacked?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We never discussed such a matter.

MR PRIOR: Did anyone perhaps ask was there any risk to life, your own life, because of possible security arrangement that Da Gama had or was that not part of the planning or preparation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not remember whether there was such a person because our plans were to shoot at it with a rifle grenade in motion that time without us having to stop first and shoot at it.  We were supposed to shoot at it and leave afterwards, before it turned and go into the gate.

MR PRIOR: Alright.

MS GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy, can I just get some clarity on some matter?
	Mr Ncamazana, you say that you discussed the whole method of your attack.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MS GCABASHE: Where did this discussion take place?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: At the home of Africa Tjobane.

MS GCABASHE: Can you recall some of the detail of these discussions, what exactly did you discuss?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember what we discussed exactly that day, as to the direct words that were used at the time but our intention was to attack with a rifle grenade.

MS GCABASHE: But who led the discussions, who had all the information about the route, about the number of people, about which side did the attacking from?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was the unit commander.

MS GCABASHE: Had any of this detail been discussed with Jimmy Jones who was the person who had authorised or asked you to go on this mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What we got from him was the instruction that we must go and attack that bus.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the unit commander at the time?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The late Africa TNT.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, just so we're clear about this, what actually went wrong was that a vehicle turned in front of your vehicle between you and the bus making it impossible for you to then shoot at the bus with your grenade, that's why you had to work out an alternative strategy and then an argument ensued about what that strategy should be, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

MR LAX: What happened?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: When we were there we were still waiting for the bus, for it to come, it was on its way.  The late Africa Kid said I must using the rifle grenade against the bus then simply use the rifles.  When the bus approached, them required to shoot they did not shoot.  It became evident that they were afraid.

ADV SANDI: What was the normal practice Mr Ncamazana, when an operation of this nature is about to be carried out?  Did you have a practice of discussing specific questions in regard to preparation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What methods or ways are you talking about?

ADV SANDI: You did not have a practice amongst yourselves of discussing specific issues before you carry out the operation with the purpose of ensuring that such an operation becomes a success, you just go out there to carry out the operation without any discussion whatsoever?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We used to have discussions.

ADV SANDI: Normally what would you discuss as part of the preparation to carry out the operation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We discussed the method of attack and the routes we were supposed to use from that target.

ADV SANDI: I thought I heard you saying to my colleague here you do not recall the discussion you had, but that is not the issue.  	You can carry on Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Was it not part of the planning of the operation how to safely leave the scene, in other words to safely get away from the scene of the operation?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

MR LAX: Mr Prior, could you just follow up.  In reply to my question he started telling us what actually happened, he disagreed with what I put to him.  Can we just finish that off before we lose that thread?  Would you do it please?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Sorry, regarding the discussions prior to the operation?

MR LAX: No, he was - perhaps finish what you're doing with the discussion about that but then let's just pick up.  He ended up by saying they were afraid, they didn't shoot.  He didn't say what happened after that.  Sorry, if we just don't lose that thread and we'll come back to it just now and you carry on with the discussion issue.

MR PRIOR: Maybe he can just pick up from that.
	You said you were afraid about shooting in that situation.

MR LAX: Let me recap, let me recap.
	I put to you what I understood had gone wrong with the operation and you disagreed with that, you then started saying that at some point Kid said you must not use the rifle grenade, that instead you must use the rifles, you remember that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I remember it.

MR LAX: You said that the bus approached and it was time to use the rifles but they were afraid to use the rifles at that point.  We were then interrupted in your evidence.  Can you just carry on from there and tell us what then happened?