Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, you said that you can expect what you want to, it did not happen like that.  It was as I said, in a cell structure that we functioned, there was not an inner core from which anyone else, other than the Chairperson, myself, or a representative of the Region in any project then spoke about that project.  There was never a group that everyone was together.

GEORGE BIZOS: How much time did you spend out of the country in the overseas projects which you directed for the elimination of people there?

MR WESSELS: With respect, Mr Chairman, I object to that line of questioning.  There was no such evidence that he was out of the country to eliminate people out there.

CHAIRPERSON: I think - well, just rephrase it, how much time did you spend out of the country on CCB business, more or less?  What - how regularly were you away?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There were many times that I was away, Mr Chairperson, I do not know.  I do not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: How much of your time did you spend in the country supervising the elimination of the people inside and how much time did you spend outside on other business?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I was away many times.

GEORGE BIZOS: A percentage of the time.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know.  I would have to lie if I have to say something.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now don't you - you see let me just cut you short.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may I object against the public commenting, loudly, as to what is to happen here in these proceedings here and I may ask if the public cannot behave themselves, that you clear the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Would people present please not make comments in relation to the evidence being given.  We're here to receive the evidence.  You can talk about what has been said in here during the break amongst each other, but please don't make loud comments during the proceedings.  Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: That you say that you are sure he was not there, he did not apply for amnesty.  I am going to put to you that the reason why you are not prepared to admit to his presence when any of these elimination plans were brought forward and discussed, is because you want to protect him because you know that he has not applied for amnesty, for whatever reason he may have chosen not to.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, the Act is clear.  Every person is responsible for the things that he felt he was responsible for and he can then apply for amnesty for them.  You can say it like you want to.

CHAIRPERSON: What was Mr Fourie's function as Deputy?  Why was he Deputy?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, there were times when I was away and then he was responsible for the co-ordination and there was a time that I was locked up and then he was the next connection or the link with the Chairperson.  He had his own region, he had his own projects.  We had a shortage of people and then according to this he functioned.  So his functions and his duties were as a link with the Chairperson, but he did not necessarily know the or have to do with the circumstances of every project.

GEORGE BIZOS: He must have had knowledge of some of what you call euphemistically, projects.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know, I cannot remember if he had any other knowledge.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well how can you deny that he was present  on one or other of the three instances that I have put to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, I have nothing to say, I think I have already answered that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well the reason why you have nothing to say is because your evidence doesn't make sense.  If it made sense you would have been able to deal with the improbability that I am suggesting to you.  Do you want to say anything else about it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right.  Now, I will use your euphemism for this purpose.  These projects were not static, they were developing, obstacles were found in the way and were reported to the inner circle.  Decisions had to be made.  A gun had to be obtained.  Poison had to be obtained.  Now, how could all these details have been kept a secret from your Deputy?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, we work in a cell structure and this means that the Co-ordinator contacted directly between the region and me, between the information and the Co-ordinator, between the logistical people who gave him equipment and himself and this was their function.  They were people who worked very hard.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question was, in relation to each one of these incidents and many others, no doubt, there had to be consultation from time to time with you.  Would you agree?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: It wouldn't be a mere making of the proposal and then the, as far as you're concerned, the file is put away.  You would have had to make decisions in relation to the amendments to the proposal from time to time.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now why would you have kept your Deputy in the dark, who had to have knowledge if he was to meaningfully deal with any of the contingencies that we do know arose in these instances?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, we worked in cell structures and Mr Fourie had a region of his own, with his own projects and what happened is that I had connections with Regional Managers, it doesn't matter where on earth I was, I could within 24 hours, speak to anyone.  So Mr Fourie stood in for General Management, but we had operations that we kept away from people who did not have to know about these operations and this includes everyone.  There was no formal structure with an office for a Deputy.  There was a shortage of staff, so he was only the next senior person who could then carry this responsibility and if he had to know, then he knew about it, otherwise not.

GEORGE BIZOS: How many were in the cell that dealt with these three instances?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: ;   It is all the members present here, plus Staal Burger and then the Co-ordinator.  The Co-ordinator is also here.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the complete cell, Mr Verster, all the applicants present here today?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct and then there were unknowing members and the support structure that every member had and it could even happen that in the region, there were people who did not know about the supporting structure of a specific individual, only he knew them.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, in relation to the information, do you recall who brought it to you and who made the proposal?

CHAIRPERSON: Which matter are we talking about now?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Omar, who brought the proposal to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was Mr Christo Britz and then there were meetings later on, so the link between myself and the region would have been Mr Britz, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And is Christo Britz - who's Christo Britz?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: This was Mr Wouter Basson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...called Trevits?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, I am aware of this, it was an information structure.  I think it was interdepartmental.  At that level, where we had no entry to, but I accept that Mr Chris Nel and all Intelligence Officers had access to this organisation, I do not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did any information in relation to Mr Omar, come from Trevits?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It could have been confirmation.  I do not know, I had nothing to do with it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, your job was to decide on the reliability of the information that was furnished to you and you were one of the important cogs in the wheel for the decision as to who was to be eliminated or not.  Why didn't you inquire as to whether Trevits had any views on the proposal of eliminating Mr Omar?