Human Rights Violation Hearings — Newcastle — 1996-09-12

WITNESS:   During the interrogation they were asking me as to what I was, what position I had in the location Sibongile.  I told them that I was a member of the Civic Association and I was a secretary there.  And they asked me as to whether this bucket system that we throw, why do we throw the buckets.  We told them that we do not do that, but we ask certain members of the community to take out this bucket system because we wanted a better system of toilets.  Because at times they would not come to fetch the buckets for weeks on end.  Especially during the holidays they would not come to fetch the buckets, and we would spend the weekend with these buckets until we dug holes.  And we were fighting as a civic association to get a better system of toilets, as well as better roads and water facilities.  And we wanted them to fix our roads, put tar.  That is all that we were fighting for.  And de Kock did not like this idea of fighting for our rights.  He said he was the one who was supposed to fix those things, we were not the ones who were going to tell him what to do.  That is what got us arrested.  And we were put in solitary confinement.

MR LAX: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   I stayed for six months.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... confinement?

WITNESS:   We were at Waterval Prison.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... statement you said that you moved to Waterval on about the 23rd of June as far as you could remember then.

WITNESS:   I was moved from Newcastle to Waterval.

MR LAX: Right.  That's where I stayed at Waterval, and I was released on the 11th of November 1988 since I had been in Waterval.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... November 1988, and you were arrested on the 17th of June 1986.  Were you in detention for that whole time?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... charged or brought to court at any time during that period?

WITNESS:   No, I never appeared in court.  I was never charged formally.

MR LAX: Now, you've told us - just to go back a little bit, you said when van Huyssteen arrested you you said they eventually took you home, they searched your house, and so on, and then you returned to Newcastle, and you said there were some black policemen with you at that stage.  Do you know any of those people?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... please.

WITNESS:   It was Sergeant Gama, Sergeant Zwane.

MR LAX: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   Yes, the black ones.

MR LAX: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   It was Olivier, van Huyssteen.  I have forgotten the other one's name.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... while you were being interrogated that happened at the Newcastle Police Station, is that right?

WITNESS:   They interrogated me at Waterval and not in Newcastle.

MR LAX: Thank you, just to clear that up.  Who was involved in your interrogation, which policemen?

WITNESS:   It was Sergeant Gama as well as Olivier.

MR LAX: Now, you ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   And Vorster.

MR LAX: You've told us that a Major de Kock, and you said his name was Eugene de Kock - is this the same Eugene

MR LAX: /de Kock

MR LAX: de Kock that's been in the newspapers?  Have you seen his picture?

WITNESS:   I think that's the one.

MR LAX: Could you describe him to us?

WITNESS:   At that time he used to change.  A times he would come with blonde hair and at times he would come with dark hair, looking like an Indian.  You wouldn't really know what sort of a person he was.  He changed his identity from time to time.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... person, a short person?

WITNESS:   He is tall, very tall.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... glasses or not?

WITNESS:   Yes, at that time he did, but at times he would appear without glasses.

MR LAX: Okay.  Now, you've told us that while you were in detention you were visited by various people round about September 1986.  Do you remember that?

WITNESS:   Yes.  De Kock came to see me, but I don't remember the date very well.  He had come to ask me to be his informer.  He was with two white men, and he said to me he would release me if I would be his informer.  He would build me a house, buy me a beautiful car.  And he would allow me to go back to my workplace, and he would also give me a salary.  And I told him that I would not be able to do that, I need some time to think it over.  And after I had gone he told me that as soon as I have decided I must contact Major Klein from Waterval and speak to him.  Then he would come see me whenever he had come to do some inspection, and I would confirm that I wanted to be his informer.  Two weeks lapsed without me responding.  Then he came personally to me to ask me as to what my decision was with regard to what we discussed beforehand.  I told him that I was not going to be able to be his informer.  He said he regretted ever having released me, and he regretted ever having taken me back to my place because he would have killed me, because he used to kill people who were like me.  When he said that he said I would never ever be released, I would die in custody.  I said that would be fine as long as I was not an informer.  And he told me that I would not be buried at my place or my home, I will be buried with other detainees.  And I told him I did not care, because if I had died I would have died.  And he said to me I will only be released when the state of emergency came to an end.  There were so many ways in which he threatened me, verbally abused me and traumatised me.  And he is the one who was traumatising me, and he was telling me that my wife was sleeping around.  He was telling me that we are sitting there in gaol and our wives were being used an abused by other men.  That is what traumatised me, because I thought he knew something about my wife sleeping around.  Even the food that we were given, he told the controllers to change the food.  They used to give us cobs, mealie cobs, so that we could eat those mealie cobs.  At time we would eat some pork, as well as intestines.  We never got any meat.

MR LAX: Mr Zwane ... (inaudible) ... stated in your statement that at some point during September 1986 you were visited by your lawyers, and you mentioned the name of those lawyers.  Do you remember their names?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do remember.  Our attorneys were initially not allowed to come and see us, but they fought their way through and they were ultimately allowed to come and see us, because even our families could not see us.  Our attorneys advised us that they had fought for our families to come and see us in custody, and that our families would be coming to see us.  We were further told that certain Judges would be coming, and we should reveal everything to the Judges, and we should tell the Judges about the lives that we were living in custody.  The Judges came, and as well as the Mxenge attorneys and Bheka Shezi from Durban, as well as Mlaba.  The first Judge who came was Judge Konenberg.  He is the one who got us out of solitary confinement, and he gave us some right to read and visit the libraries and get some physical exercise, and we were allowed visitors in, and that the visitors should be able to bring us food from our places.  All those rights we got through those judges, and even the ones who wanted to further their education in custody, they were allowed to further their education.  I am one of the people who took that opportunity, and I studied my matric through Damelin.  Other attorneys also came, as Mr Lyster.  I think he can remember coming there, because we were under him.  There were other attorneys as well.  These were the attorneys who fought for our rights.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... 1988, is that right?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... happened once you were released?