Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

CHAIRPERSON: Just let's ...[inaudible] one thing clear for me - when a question is put to you, you can either deny it to say it didn't happen or you say I can't remember.  When you say you can't remember it means that it may well have happened but you have no recollection of it.  Now you've given us answers to say you can't remember, do you understand?  Now I'm giving you a chance, are you going to say that this did not happen or is it that you can't remember it happening?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I can't say it did not happen, I don't know about it.  If you're asking a question that perhaps some of my comrades shot there, I can't answer that because I don't know.

MR PRIOR: I want to simply put it to you that as part of this unit that was sent out to attack the Heidelberg Tavern, it's unlikely that you would not have known about it.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that question is clear to him.

MR PRIOR: Well, I don't know how better to put it to him Mr Chairman.  I'm suggesting to him that what he's saying is improbable, that as a cadre tasked with attacking a specific target in that place in Observatory, would unaware or would not remember that any other place would have been attacked at the same time, in other words the night-club across the street.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: What are you saying?

MR PRIOR: I'm saying you're not telling us everything that happened on that evening.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: What do you mean because I have answered you all your questions.  I've answered your questions, I tell you when I don't know anything about what you're asking.

MR PRIOR: Yes, well I'm also going to suggest to you as I do, that if that is the case that you shot at another target then you can't claim that you were simply acting on orders to attack the Heidelberg Tavern.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Please repeat the question.

MR PRIOR: If that is the case that your unit shot at the people across the road from the tavern at the Plant Night-club, then what you say about strict orders to attack Heidelberg Tavern can't be true.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I got an order to attack at the tavern, if there is somebody who shot elsewhere I don't know about it.  I know - the only thing I know is that we were sent to attack the tavern, somebody else could have used his own initiative and shot at where you're talking about but I only know about the tavern.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mabala, as I understand your evidence and please correct me if I'm wrong, your car parked - and you showed us on the photograph, in the front of the tavern between the two doors and you got out of the right hand rear door and stood there in the road.  Is that correct so far?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: So if anybody shot at the building on the other side of the road, they must have either shot over you or from just in front of where you were standing on the road close to the building, do you agree with that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Please repeat that Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: If anybody shot at the building on the other side of the road which has been pointed out to you by counsel and the various photographs he has shown you, they must have either shot over you or shot from in front of you - from between, they must have been between you and the building they were shooting at.  And so you must of have seen or been aware of the fact - if the bullets were whistling over your head you must have known it, wouldn't you have known it?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, I know clearly about my actions, I did what I was supposed to do.  Please remember that there was very limited time, I could not focus on everything - it was also at night.  I don't know how else to answer this question.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we'll simplify it.  You've seen those photographs which depict damage to the buildings across the road, now it is being to you that that damage was caused by you or by your friends that night.  Do you understand, that is the question that is being put to you?  Now, you react by saying: "I can't remember", it's being said to you that that answer is not convincing because that damage could only have been caused by your colleagues, do you understand?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I understand.  Let me answer you as follows, I cannot dispute that - maybe they did shoot but I cannot dispute it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now then, the next question is, if your directives - if your orders were to attack the Heidelberg Tavern as you've told us that was the orders, then somebody exceeded those orders and went beyond those orders by attacking buildings across the road - that is the question, do you understand?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I understand Sir, that perhaps there's somebody who shot there.  The person who shot across the road must have been someone who took his own initiative and shot but I focused on what I was meant to focus on.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, I think you can't take it very much further.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  When you eventually left the scene and drove to where you parted company with Mr Madasi and Mr Maxeba and when they returned - as we have heard their evidence, was there a de-briefing, was there a discussion about the attack in order that you could report to the APLA command about what happened?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, Sir.

MR PRIOR: In the car driving away from the Heidelberg Tavern, were there any discussions about how the attack went and who did what during the attack?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: When we were going to the Heidelberg Tavern?  Please repeat the question Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: No, after the ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Going away from the tavern.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: What did you say happened?  Could you start your question from the beginning please.

MR PRIOR: The question is simply, when you were driving away from the scene of the attack at the tavern, was there any discussion in the vehicle who had done what, whether it was a successful mission, anything in that respect?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, Sir.

MR PRIOR: Did you ever at any stage discuss the attack with any of your colleagues, any of your comrades at any stage before you left for the Transkei?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: I have a little difficulty with this - you had been given and order to do one thing and one thing only at the attack, hadn't you?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Correct, but please repeat the question.

JUDGE WILSON: That was the question and you've have replied - you had been ordered to do one thing and one thing only, that was to throw a hand grenade.  Is that correct, do you confirm that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Correct Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Well did Luyanda you commander, not ask you: "Why didn't you throw the hand grenade"?

INTERPRETER: Could the witness put the answer more clearly please?

JUDGE WILSON: I don't think I can ask it ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The witness please.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Luyanda did ask me why I did not launch the hand grenade, I replied and gave him the explanation.

JUDGE WILSON: So there was a discussion afterwards, why have you just told us a minute ago you did discuss the attack with anyone?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: You asked if Luyanda had asked me why I had not launched the hand grenade, I therefore gave him the answer.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Prior asked you immediately before then, whether there was any discussion while driving away and you said you didn't discuss the attack with anyone afterwards.  Now you say Luyanda did come and ask you why you hadn't thrown the hand grenade and you explained - there was a discussion.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I was answering your question - I was answering your question because you said when Mr Gqomfa asked me why did not launch the hand grenade, I then gave him the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that besides that question that was put to you, were there any other questions asked and answered by you all when you were in the car driving away - was anything else asked and answered?