Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-10

MR VAN ZYL: But then it would have been ridiculous for Dr Swanepoel to ask you continuously give me some of this agent because you still haven't received the end result?  How would he be able to do that?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: He did not have insight in that specific research.

MR VAN ZYL: Did you tell him Dr Swanepoel, it is going to take still years, we still haven't achieved our goal.  He knew very well that that was a project which theoretically could work.  He knew it had not been tested.  We repeatedly told him we can't give this agent to you, it hasn't been tested.
 We don't know whether it was safe.

MR VAN ZYL: You weren't able to test it because you haven't had a product?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: We did produce an agent which was given to baboons.

MR VAN ZYL: But you didn't know whether it was working?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: No, I didn't know.  I left before that result became available.  It would take about two, three years to do that type of research.

MR VAN ZYL: You said yesterday that Dr Swanepoel nagged you to make this product available, but you did not have a product to make available.

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, I do not agree that I used the word harassed.  That is the word that you used, that is my note, Wynand Swanepoel harassed me to release it.  That is the word that you used yesterday.

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: What happened is he came and he asked me and I told him we can't release it because it has not been tested yet.
 He kept back coming and saying release it, don't worry about the safety tests.  You can interpret it, I may be incorrect using the word harassed.
 May I alter that to firmly requested.

MR VAN ZYL: You also said that you would give him something else, in the sense that the actual product would be diluted, so it would not have the effect that you wanted to achieve, but you couldn't do it because you didn't have the product?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: It was very easy to do that.  What we do is we take a hormone from the shelf, you can buy it from the shelf, for example human chorionic letrophy, that is a hormone which is produced by the conceptors.  That hormone has to be attached to proteins which could achieve humanilogical response.
 But it is easy to take that hormone from the shelf.

MR VAN ZYL: What I am putting to you is Dr Van Rensburg, the essence of your evidence as I understood it, tell me whether I am wrong, then I will leave it, that you did have this project and at a certain stage, you certainly realised I am going to give it to you when he keeps on asking for it, but I would dilute it.

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: No, I won't dilute it.  The product which we were preparing, would not be made available to use on people.
 It was an agreement between the researchers and you are not going to inoculate somebody with an agent who hasn't been tested for safety.  Everything, he put everything, even your life in danger, and he firmly demanded that.
 I thought that I could perhaps provide them with something, pretending to be the real product.  That is unethical, it is also unethical to inject sterile water, but it is also unethical to inject a product which could cause a great deal of damage.

MR VAN ZYL: You have talked about instructions being received from various people, and this morning you told the Commission that you received instruction regarding the infertility project and also this agent, which was not traceable, you were present when that was said?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR VAN ZYL: I understand that it was not necessarily an instruction, but we leave it there.  Any other instruction for any other research?  Can you tell us who gave you which instructions regarding which projects?  Are you able to do that, to answer that?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: This is a very vague and a very wide question.

MR VAN ZYL: What I am asking you, let's put it differently.  Yesterday you said instructions were received from Wynand Swanepoel, Wouter Basson and Andre Immelman.  What I am asking you is, can you tell us which instructions were given by which of those people, regarding which projects, or isn't it possible?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: No, it is not possible, I was not present there.  Those were only deductions I made from the little bit I heard there, here and there.

MR VAN ZYL: Reports which were compiled after research had been completed, research results, do you know whether Dr Swanepoel received any research reports?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: Dr Swanepoel was not on the Project Committee where we handled that officially.  Those reports were kept by Dr Immelman.  He and Dr Swanepoel co-operated, worked together, but my answer is no, I can't confirm that Dr Swanepoel had access to those reports.

MR VAN ZYL: Did you know any members of the CCB while you were working at Roodeplaat?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I obviously personally didn't know any, I did meet one.  At one stage round about 1989 the Managing Director Swanepoel, organised a team building session weekend at a camp, on a farm in Heidelberg.
 At this farm, it turned out to be a farm which was used extensively by the Police.  They had camping facilities there, they had a shooting range and on this farm they entertained us, we had a big braai in the evening, and in the morning they put out lots of cases of ammunition and rows of weapons and we had great fun, shooting off AK47's,  Uzi's, all sorts of things.
 At this farm, I personally met Dr Swanepoel with Slang van Zyl and I think Staal Burger was also there.

MR VAN ZYL: Did you see any of those people at RRL?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: No, never.

MR VAN ZYL: Can you confirm today that members of the CCB were seen at RRL?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: No, never ever.  It never happened that they came there.

MR VAN ZYL: Did you see any members of the Special Forces there at RRL?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: When Philip Mijburgh was still in the Special Forces, he came there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, again I don't want to be unfair to you.  I again have to say that cross-examination at this sort of hearings is unfortunately a limited one, and a controlled one.  It is for various reasons, I can mention them, because there are other opportunities for people who are implicated or who are affected to their detriment, by evidence that might be led.
 When it comes to finding, there would be another opportunity for instance, for further representations to be made.  I would suggest, because I believe there are procedures for hearings that have been circulated, I would suggest without telling Counsel how they should put their questions to witnesses, that the aim should be to put a version or to contest a version that was given by a witness.
 It is on the table.  I am torn you know, on the (indistinct) dilemma here because I don't want to be unfair to Counsel, but at the same time, I want to give proper meaning to limited cross-examination.  So, for instance, I have to get an indication from you, how long you are going to be with the witness?

MR VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I am halfway through my cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: For instance, are you going to be longer than 15 minutes?

MR VAN ZYL: 15 to 20 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see how far we will go.

MR VAN ZYL: Okay Mr Chairman.  You said you saw Dr Philip Mijburgh there?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: During those early years he came here regularly, while he was still a member of Special Forces.

MR VAN ZYL: When was that?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: The second half of 1984 and the beginning of 1985.

MR VAN ZYL: When did you start working at RRL?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: The 1st of August, 1984.

MR VAN ZYL: Are you aware that Dr Mijburgh was involved in the CBW project?

SCHALK VAN RENSBURG: I was not aware of his direct involvement, but at a later stage he became involved with Delta G.  I thought he was involved in conventional warfare.