Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.   We are to start slightly later than usual but that has been due to circumstances which were beyond our control and we hope to make up for the loss of time.  Advocate Steenkamp I assume we are dealing with the De Meillon matter?

ADV STEENKAMP: That is correct Mr Chairman, Honourable Members.  We are dealing with the De Meillon and two others matter which is before you.  It's application number 4570, 5610 and 5611 of '96 and '97 respectively, that's as far as Section 94 is concerned, Mr Chairman.  My respectful submission is both the victims in this matter are represented and were duly informed and I must apologise and thank you for your indulgence, Mr Chairman, we're ready to start.  Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Advocate Steenkamp.  For the purposes of the record, today is Wednesday 14th October 1998.  This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee.  The panel is being presided over by myself, my name is Denzel Potgieter.  I am assisted on my right by Advocate Gcabashe and on my left by Mr Sibanyoni.  Advocate Steenkamp, just for the formality, you can just put yourself on record before I speak to the legal representatives?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm Andre Steenkamp, I'm the Evidence Leader in this matter, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, you are representing one of the applicants, perhaps you can place yourself on record?

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairperson, I represent the first applicant, Mr de Meillon, and instructed by Swart, Redlinghuys, Nel and Vennote Attorneys and assisted by Mr Johan Lubbe on my left.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo.
	Mr Kotze do you not have a microphone?  Alright, we'll see how it goes but we might very well have to get another microphone over there but for the moment Mr Kotze can you place yourself on record?

MR KOTZE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I represent Mr Eddie Holder and Willie van Zyl, the second and third applicants in this matter and my name is Kotze from the firm Koekemoer, Kotze in Boksburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kotze.  Mr van Schalkwyk?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  My name is Gert van Schalkwyk, I represent Stephanus Frederick Terblanche and Andre Reinier Swart who are opposing the application and I am instructed by Van Schalkwyk and Associates, Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, there's nothing else that you wanted to put on record?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I can maybe just not directly dealing with this matter but I just want to inform you, Mr Chairman, that the other two matters standing down, I will be dealing with the moment we finish with this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: As it pleases you.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
	Mr Prinsloo, ...[inaudible]

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  The applicant can you it at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure we can improve the situation a bit later.  Oh, I see there is an extra one.  How long will it take you to - is that so?  Alright I think go ahead, we'll wait for you.  We now have another microphone, I have been informed that it will take a few minutes to connect so I'll allow for it to be put on so that there aren't any further interruptions, so we'll just adjourn for a while.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I think we are ready.  Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: As it pleases you Chair and Members of the Committee.  The application of the applicant is in the bundle in front of you from page 1 up to page 15.  Page 4 is only correspondence, that is not part of the application.
	Chairperson, before the applicant starts testifying, there are certain aspects where we want to make some amendments or changes.  At annexure A, page 5, Members of the Committee, paragraph 1, the fourth line:
"I received training at the army and I was once in the airforce and part of the year I also did service at Hoedspruit."
Paragraph 2, third line:
"I was a member of the Secunda Division and Holder and Van Zyl also members of the AWB.  I met them shortly before the incident."

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that is at the end of that sentence is there a phrase added?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, at the end of the sentence
"I was a member of the Secunda Division ..."
and then full stop and:
"... with the two friends"
That has been deleted, that is:
"Van Zyl and Holder, two members of the AWB who I met shortly before the incident."
At page 7 at the top:
"I was told that it is the right time and it is the apt time to act.  Devon would"
Devon has to be deleted.
"that it is the right time and appropriate time to act."

CHAIRPERSON: So you say the word "Devon" has to be deleted and the "right place" that has to be deleted as well?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, that is correct.  So
"I was told that the time is appropriate."
and then in paragraph 7:
"I came to the guard in the base and I pointed my weapon at him and I told him that we were from a right wing group and that we would have to take weapons"
the word "their" with the weapons, "their" has to be added.
"and the guard then also pulled his weapon and I think the light was shot"
I "think" the light was shot.
And then the word:
"shoulder"
has to be changed:
"in the left forearm"
And the words:
"by the guard"
That has to be deleted.
Paragraph 8, there is a typing error.  It should be 15 years sentence instead of 18 years.  It is correct in the appendix.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we have then made the corrections and the application has been changed in accordance.  Would you like to swear the applicant in?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes as it pleases you.

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: (sworn states)

MR PRINSLOO: Mr de Meillon, you are the applicant in this specific case and you have applied for amnesty.  This relates to a charge of murder and armed robbery and that was based on an event on 23 April 1994 at Devon, is that correct?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr de Meillon, you also heard that certain changes have been made to your application, do you confirm that?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you also confirm the content of annexure A and B as it is before you?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr de Meillon, can you explain to the Honourable Committee in what type of family you grew up, was it liberal or conservative family?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Chairperson I was raised in a very conservative family.

MR PRINSLOO: And your parents, what were their political ideas, what did they support, right or left?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Rightist politics.

MR PRINSLOO: Have you received any military training?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: When did you receive training, can you remember?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes it was in 1992, beginning of 1992 I enrolled at the airforce.  I did my training at Hoedspruit, my rank was Corporal and that was in weapon training and the last three months of my training I was at Devon Airforce Base.

MR PRINSLOO: What was the nature of the training that you received?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: At Hoedspruit I did weapon training and I was trained to also train people in weapon training.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you give weapon training to people whilst in the airforce?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I did, I trained troops.

MR PRINSLOO: Whilst you were in the airforce did you receive any training in regard to acting against the enemy?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: As you understand the politics, I'm specifically referring to your training, on the training, how did you understand it, who was the enemy if there had been one?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: The enemy was the Communist, the ANC/SACP Alliance, that was mainly the enemy.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you join any white groups?