Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen.  I want to start by welcoming all of you to these hearings.  There are two matters that are set down for hearing for today.  The first matter is that of an application by Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala, Mbuso Enock Shabalala, Eugene de Kock which relates to the death of Batandwa Ndondo.
	The other matter is an Application by Pumalele Gumengu and Aaron Tiani in regard to the murder of Sitembele Zokwe.  For the benefit of those who might not be familiar with some of the languages that we will be using, channel 1 is Afrikaans, channel 2 is English and channel 3 is Xhosa.
	Let me introduce the members of the Committee.  On my right we have Advocate Sigodi of the Port Elizabeth Bar and on my left we have Mr J B Sibanyoni, an attorney from Pretoria.  I am Sandele Ngcobo, the Judge of the High Court in Cape Town.  Would the legal representatives introduce themselves.  Shall we perhaps begin with those who are appearing for the Applicants?

MR DILIZO: Mr Chairman, I am Advocate Dilizo, appearing on behalf of Applicant Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you sir.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, I'm Mr Schalk Hugo, I'm appearing on behalf of the third Applicant, Mr Eugene Alexander de Kock.

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, my name is Julian Knight.  I am appearing on behalf of the second Applicant, Mr Shabalala.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman and all members, I'm N Dukada.  I'm instructed by Attorneys ...[inaudible] Incorporated and I'm representing the family of the deceased, Batandwa Ndondo.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, I'm Zuko Mapoma, leader of evidence for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you gentlemen.  Mr Mapoma, I understand that the other Application that is related to Sitembele Sokwe is not proceeding, is that right?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.  The legal representative for the Applicants and also the families legal representative are agreed that the matter is not ripe for hearing and I also, Chairperson, from the point of view of the investigation, I am of the view that there are some other areas which need to be investigated in that matter and the matter is not ripe for hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is appearing for the Applicants in that matter?  Sir, would you place your name on Record?

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, my name is Kobus Malan from attorneys Kobus Malan, attorney in Northern.  I appear on behalf of both of the Applicants in this regard and I can confirm what Mr Mapoma has informed you.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that there is no date that has been set for this matter?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, the date is yet to be fixed.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  The Application for Amnesty by Pumalele Gumengu and Aaron Tiani in respect of the death of Sitembele Zonkwe will therefore be postponed to a date to be arranged.  The reason for the postponement is that the investigations relating to that matter have not yet been completed and further investigations still require to be conducted into that matter and for that reason it cannot continue today, thank you.  Mr Malan I think you may be excused.
	We will now proceed with the matter of Dandala and Shabalala and de Kock.  Have you gentlemen any request as to who is going to start?

MR DILIZO: Mr Chairman we have agreed that I'll be leading the evidence of Mr Dandala first.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Do you desire to make an opening statement at this stage?  For the benefit of the Committee Mr Dukada would you please indicate the basis upon which the victims oppose the Application?

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman, honourable members of the Committee, an Affidavit was prepared on behalf of the mother of the late Batandwa Ndondo and certain grounds are set out in the Affidavit for opposing this Application.  I will just put briefly the grounds for objecting the Application as follows.
	Firstly, Mr Chairman, honourable members, the family of the deceased believes that there has been no full disclosure of facts relating to the killing of the deceased.  Secondly, the family also believes that the killing was a criminal act, not related to the furtherance or achievement of any political objective by the killers, particularly the Applicant in these proceedings.
	Thirdly, my instructions are that the killing was an abuse of State authority and a complete misuse of the criminal justice system by the killers of the deceased.  And lastly Mr Chairman, the instructions are that even if the killing was a political objective, the killing itself was disproportionate in the circumstances.  There were alternative ways of destroying the late Batandwa Ndondo politically than killing him. Those are the grounds for objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well thank you.

MR DILIZO: Mr Chairman I'm leading the evidence of the Applicant Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dandala are you going to speak in English or in Xhosa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I am going to speak Xhosa.

MS SIGODI: Please rise.  Please give us your full names.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: My name is Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dandala you are going to have to speak up very loud, do you understand that?  So that people at the back of the hall could hear you.  Do you understand that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.

MR DILIZO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Dandala, are you the First Applicant in this matter?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct sir.

MR DILIZO: Having made your founding affidavit in respect of your application?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct sir.

MR DILIZO: Which is now forming part of the bundle, starting from Page 6 to Page 16?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR DILIZO: Have you read that affidavit and are you aware of it's contents fully?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, I have read the Affidavit.

MR DILIZO: Do you also adopt it and that it should be incorporated as your evidence into this bundle before this Committee?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct sir.

MR DILIZO: In paragraph 5, that is on Page 7 of the bundle of your Affidavit you stated your background as to when you joined the Police Force, is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct sir.

MR DILIZO: And further on the same Page 7, on paragraph 6 you also indicated that you joined the underground Security Branch and were transferred to Umtata head office?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct sir.

MR DILIZO: Briefly, what were the duties of the underground security policemen?  Could you please tell this Honourable Court?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The duties of the underground security police was to infiltrate and get information in connection with those groups that we were fighting, the Government of the day.  We would pass the information to the superiors so that that particular person would be arrested.

MR DILIZO: So those duties are also contained on Paragraph 8 on Page 8 of the bundle?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct sir.

MR DILIZO: Who was your supervisor in the execution of your duties as an underground security policeman?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was Colonel Booi.

MR DILIZO: Do you know the deceased in this matter, that is Batandwa Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I know him.

MR DILIZO: Can you tell the Honourable Mr Chairman and the Honourable members of the Committee how come that you knew him and what happened?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That was when we were in Xala when we went there to arrest him.

MR DILIZO: That is on the date of his death?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR DILIZO: Yes, proceed.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: ... [no translation]

MR DILIZO: Yes, how come that you went to Xala?  Who gave you such instructions, if any?