Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

SIMON MORRIS: Well I don't know who could have possibly done that because as I've mentioned earlier that being not involved in politics, one cannot account maybe for the newspaper article which was written or may the events which took place after we were shot because we were even surprised, we were shot we were asked questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I hear you, you say you don't know, but I'm just putting it across to you that this is the context in which it has been put to you.

SIMON MORRIS: Yes that is the context.

MR MALAN: Chair may I just ask Mr Morris, why could it not have been one of the UDF organisations that came with this reprisal ... (inaudible) being aligned to AZAPO, having made an attack on youngsters.  The question is put to you from the article. Is it an unreasonable inference to see it as a revenge or retaliation?

SIMON MORRIS: That is what the article is saying it says a retaliation, from who I don't have any knowledge of that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Tloubatla.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just something.  Did you - Mr Tloubatla asked you whether you had knowledge of this huge conflict that prevailed between AZAPO and UDF and you said you did not
have such knowledge?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes I did not have such a knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you really be serious about that when we see articles in the newspapers that even church people were called in to mitigate, to try and resolve that.  Wasn't such a conflict really a matter of public knowledge to anybody, to everybody in the area?

SIMON MORRIS: It can be a matter of public knowledge but to me personally I have no idea of what was going on because even the article I asked from - I saw an article at Mr Tloubatla's desk today, youth killed - do you remember Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes.

SIMON MORRIS: And then I just saw the headlines because at school now, I'm a teacher now, I think looking at the headlines and also the summary you tend to ... (inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman thank you.  I am going back to this (indistinct) of political activity, particularly amongst the six of you.  You say you are certain that all the six of you, none of them were involved in any political activity.  Are you saying that?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes I'm saying that.

MR TLOUBATLA: And you also admitted that you personally, you were not involved in any political activity?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

MR TLOUBATLA: Can you preclude the possibility that one of your friends could have been involved, could actually have been a member of some other organisations?

SIMON MORRIS: No, no one in our group as growing up kids.  The only thing that we liked I think it was clothes and school, not politics.

MR TLOUBATLA: Are you saying that none of your friends were in any way involved in any political activity?

SIMON MORRIS: That is what I'm saying, none of us were involved in politics.

MR TLOUBATLA: But did your friends or in allegiance to you says that whatever they did they had to report to you such that you had to know, even if you were not involved in politics.

SIMON MORRIS: There was no report of such happenings.

MR TLOUBATLA: Perhaps you don't understand my question.  My question is, did they owe you so much allegiance that despite the fact that they knew that you were not involved in politics, they would even report to you if they were involved in any political activity?

SIMON MORRIS: They were not involved in politics, they were not involved in politics and because the other four ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute.  I think you may be advised to say not as far as I know because you must remember in 1986 for example, some of these organisations were banned and people who were members thereof did not disclose that.  The ANC was still banned, the PAC was still banned, they were operating underground and you know there were many people who were members of such organisations, confidentially or secretly or underground.  I don't know whether you really want to insist that, to put your head on the block and say they were never a member of any organisation.  Don't you think you should qualify your answer by saying as far as I know.

SIMON MORRIS: If it goes to a point of putting my head on a block, I'll do that because I'm saying they were not involved in politics, I cannot say as far as that because I have no knowledge of that.  That is an assumption which I will be making, but I'm saying they were not involved in politics as I was also not involved in politics.

CHAIRPERSON: Well there you are Mr Tloubatla he's putting it in the strongest possible terms.  He's prepared to put his head on the block for it.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Right, now let's move on to your school.  Was there any political activity at your school at the time?

SIMON MORRIS: No sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm putting it to you that that school will be the most extraordinary school in 1986 in Soweto not to have any form of political activity.  I am putting it to you.  Do you have any response to what I'm saying?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes I do have a response.  What I'm putting back to you sir, with kind respect, is that there were no politics in our school.

CHAIRPERSON: Any student movement?

SIMON MORRIS: No sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know whether any of the students at Madweleni High School were perhaps involved in political activity, even if it's outside the school?

SIMON MORRIS: No I have no knowledge of that sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: And you can't exclude the possibility that some of them were involved in political activity?

SIMON MORRIS: I cannot account for what I don't know sir, just what I know.

MR TLOUBATLA: In as far as your knowledge goes, do you know of any schools, except yours, any high school in Soweto at the time where there was hardly any political activity?

SIMON MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that because our focus was just only going through the high school and then going either to a university or technikon.

MR TLOUBATLA: Do you know whether generally, around that time, students particularly your age were very active in politics?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes they might have been active in politics, but not us, specifically not myself and other.

MR TLOUBATLA: I don't refer to you, not you not your group basically, I'm saying generally, students in general in Soweto around that time who were very, very active in politics?

SIMON MORRIS: That could have happened but not in our school.

MR MALAN: Mr Tloubatla do you have anything specific to put to the witness on disruptions in his school at that time and if not, should we proceed with this kind of questioning?

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, no.  I'm going to put it to you for the last time Mr Morris you are not honest to this commission.  You are not telling the truth when you say particularly at your school that there were not politics at all, that students were not involved in political activity.  I put it to you that you are just simply saying this to try and paint some image of a very innocent, disinterested citizen or student who was abducted by some thugs.  That's basically what you're trying to give to this commission and you're not truthful to yourself and to us all?

SIMON MORRIS: Kindly, with respect sir, are you putting these words into my mouth, are you saying I'm telling the truth - I'm telling lies in fact?

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm saying so, particularly with political activity at your school.

SIMON MORRIS: Yes, I've said no.  If you have any other questions that makes you to doubt whether I'm saying the lies or maybe I'm saying not the truth, then why don't you ask other questions because I'm saying to you I'm putting my head on the block on this one because even at now I'm not involved in politics.  Should I say now because of the climate of the country I'm involved in politics?