Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR PRINSLOO: Is that your testimony that what you and your fellow-accused did, was done in good faith and for the sake of and in support of the Conservative Party and the broad Rightwing front, the Afrikaner, whose struggle you were struggling?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: And do you still believe that you planned and carried out this deed to promote the Conservative Party and the broad Rightwing forum to which you were committed in the struggle?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I did Mr Chair.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Derby-Lewis you used the word "let us" quite often in your peroration, let us try and find out whether you are a man who is prepared to commit perjury without any qualms, shall we try that?
	Will you please have a look at R2, page 107.  I beg your pardon, it is page 117.  Have you got it Mr Derby-Lewis, R2, page 117?

CHAIRPERSON: That is the notice of motion?

GEORGE BIZOS: That is so Mr Chairman.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry Mr Chairman, the top of my numbers are cut off and I am having difficulty reading them with the photocopying.

GEORGE BIZOS: Page 117, that is your application to reopen your trial?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Turn to page 129.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was the oath administered to you by an Commissioner of Oaths and did you swear that what you said from page 120 to 128 was true?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Does your signature appear at the bottom of page 128?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It does Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: There you attempted to persuade the court that you were innocent of the killing of Hani.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You put the blame on your lawyers for not explaining to you properly what your rights were in asking for a reopening of the trial?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was part of the story Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will come to all the parts.  Answer the question that I put to you.  Did you put the blame on your lawyers for not advising you of your rights?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you defended by a senior member of the Pretoria Bar?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I was Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you telling the truth when you were putting the blame on him or not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As far as his advice was concerned Mr Chairman, I was telling the truth.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, so you are saying that he actually didn't perform his duty properly towards you in informing you of what your rights are and that he really advised you not to give evidence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I stated that I was advised to remain silent at all costs and not to testify.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well let's leave that out for a moment.  But if we look at the application, you said that you were innocent and if you were given an opportunity to reopen your trial you would give evidence claiming your innocence.  Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as I testified earlier ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Answer the question please Sir, and then you can explain.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Would Counsel mind then repeating the question Mr Chairman, I am trying to answer the question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Was the gravamen of your application that if your trial was reopened, you would give evidence that you were innocent of any wrongdoing?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You went on oath to say that you would, if your trial was reopened, that you would go into the witness box and plead that you were innocent and say under oath again that you were innocent?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was acting for you when you made this application?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the Advocate was an Advocate Bruwer.

GEORGE BIZOS: And the attorney?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The attorney was the attorney on my left hand.

GEORGE BIZOS: Your present attorney?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My present attorneys, correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you lie to your attorney?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Nobody compelled you to lie to your attorney?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No one compelled me Mr Chairman, except for the fact that I was busy with an armed struggle and I was determined to give as much opposition as possible under any circumstances.

GEORGE BIZOS: By the time you came to this application, you told your Attorney that you lied to him when he prepared this application for you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't he ask you but you told me when I, when you instructed me to apply for the reopening of your trial, you told me that you were innocent, here you are now telling me that you are guilty and you want me to act for you in your amnesty application, did that not happen?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: We have not have that discussion Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you mean to say, Sir, that an honourable member of our profession did not ask you about your perjury and your attempt to defeat the ends of justice when you applied for the reopening of your trial?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, my attorney and my advocate asked me why I perjured and I told them that I was busy with the armed struggle and I was prepared to offer whatever resistance I could in any form whatsoever, even if it mean lying.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  Now then we have it from you Sir, that your legal representatives knew that as part of the armed struggle your committed perjury and you attempted to defeat the ends of justice?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman, as did many other freedom fighters.

GEORGE BIZOS: As what?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As did many other freedom fighters.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please leave the other freedom fighters, we are dealing with your case today Mr Derby-Lewis.
(Very loud clapping and cheering)

CHAIRPERSON: You are going to delay these proceedings, please, we would not like any delays.  Allow the witness to give evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do we understand that your legal representatives, your present legal representatives knew that you had attempted to defeat the ends of justice and committed perjury and they did not advise you to apply for amnesty for committing perjury and attempting to defeat the ends of justice?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: They did not advise me that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, why knowing that you had to make full disclosure, why did you not in your application say by the way, in furtherance of the armed struggle I as a freedom fighter also committed perjury and attempted to defeat the ends of justice, why didn't you disclose that fact in your application?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I testified to that extent now in front of the Committee Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, after we served papers on you containing a copy of your application.  The question is why didn't you in your application disclose that you had committed perjury and attempted to defeat the ends of justice?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the first statement is not correct and the second statement was, I was unaware of the fact that I had to ask amnesty for that because I was told that I had to apply for amnesty for crimes for which I had been found guilty.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  So you have, you didn't think that you had to disclose all the crimes that you had committed in furtherance of the struggle?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No Mr Chairman, because I was not aware of a single applicant asking for amnesty for having committed perjury in the past.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, also this application shows that you have quite an inventive mind.  Will you agree with that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us take a couple of examples of how you tried to mislead the court.   You say on page 101 that you will set out, 111 I beg your pardon, your version.