Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

MR MGIDLANA: So in respect of all these incidents, except for the Logwaiso one where you did not supply the weaponry, did you supply any weapons to Longono?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Yes, I did supply weapons to him because he was falling under my unit.

MR MGIDLANA: So in respect of all these incidents, you had supplied weaponry when you - were these licensed firearms and explosives, did you have any authority to possess this weaponry?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: No, they were not licensed firearms.  They were weapons of Eastern origin.  These weapons we brought into the country for purposes of pursuing the armed struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: Just get this thing straight there with me, I'm not too clear on it.  You say this Mzamba holiday resort was in actual fact a resort which included a Casino.

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it targeted, the resort targeted because it had a casino?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Not necessarily the Casino, because it had a Casino.  As I'm saying the purpose then was to take war to everybody, there was an escalation of armed struggle.  If I remember well then the clarion call by the ANC then was to take war even to the white suburbs, if I remember, so this was in that light.

CHAIRPERSON: But wasn't the call and I'm not sure of my dates now, 8th of January 87 I think, was in fact that call, but wasn't it a qualified call to take it to State institutions?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: I may not be sure of the exact dates and maybe in terms of the briefings that filtered to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let us not talk about the dates then, but that particular call to take it even to the white suburbs, was that not a qualified call to take it to the white suburbs, but to attack State institutions, like police stations?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Well at the time, and may be Casino was all, the one ...(indistinct) was also owned mainly by the Transkei Government, that might have qualified as a State institution.  I'm not referring to the people inside because care had been taken in that operation not to place it maybe in the machines where the people ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: You say care was taken to minimise any casualties.

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You said care was taken to minimise any casualties.

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you planned this and approved of this attack, was that the reasoning that the Casino should be targeted because it was owned by the then Transkei government and therefore qualified as a State institution?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Yes.  Yes, Judge, because in our understanding it was that it was generated income for the Transkei Government and therefore supported that regime.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just be absolutely clear, this Casino you're talking about is what's known as the Wild Coast Sun.

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: That's right.

MR MGIDLANA: In your application you also make some kind of a general application in the sense that you claim responsibility ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go to there Mr Mgidlana, is he entitled to make such an application?

MR MGIDLANA: In actual fact I was trying to get to that exactly Judge, because in my view, he can't be ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't that a legal matter that you must advise your client on?

MR MGIDLANA: In fact I just wanted him to comment on it, be very difficult for him to say what specific incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I will accept that you cleared it with him and he was unable to do so and that's the end of the matter.

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: But I'm not going to stop you, if you really want him to give that answer, then proceed, but it's not going to make much difference.

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Yes, thank you Chair.  Are there any other incidents that probably you now recall?

CHAIRPERSON: Well it's a bit too late, the date has gone by.

MR MGIDLANA: Well, they may have been covered under that general application.  He will then be recalling them now Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: You would be in the same position whether he recalls it now or not.

MR MGIDLANA: There's another issue that has been brought up regarding an incident that took place in the Maclear ...area regarding policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he make application for that?

MR MGIDLANA: He hasn't Judge, but it's just that it came up from the TRC evidence analyst, so I just want him to comment on it.

CHAIRPERSON: But in his application, he doesn't make mention of it?

MR MGIDLANA: He doesn't make mention, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the purpose of you raising that incident?  For him to apply for amnesty?

MR MGIDLANA: No, Judge, I just wanted him to clear us out, whether he was involved or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you Judge.  Involving policemen that were shot.  You may have heard about it from the evidence analyst from the TRC, is that correct?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Yes, I heard about it.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you in any manner involved?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: I was not involved, but I know of the incident since it was involving members of the unit under me.

MR LAX: I didn't hear your answer, members of?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Of my unit.

MR LAX: Of your unit, sorry.

MR MGIDLANA: So you were not involved in the planning and even the execution thereof?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: It was not a planned operation, I think it was just a meeting engagement between two members of the unit and the police patrol van.

MR MGIDLANA: So you are not seeking any amnesty in respect of that?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: No.

MR MGIDLANA: That is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Mgidlana, can you give us an indication in respect of each incident, what he actually applied for?  Let us take the incident, the Borris Sedawu.

MR MGIDLANA: In respect of the Borris Sedawu incident Judge, he's seeking amnesty in respect of the possession and supplying of unlicensed firearms, unlawful and unlicensed explosives and explosive devices in this form of the limpet mine, as well as malicious damage to property.  It could be viewed as attempted murder or assault with intent to cause grievous bodily harm in respect of the person that was injured, as well as what could be generally called conspiracy to commit an offence, which if he were to be charged, it could be said to be unknown to the State in respect of his involvement in the planning.

MR LAX: Does he remember precisely what kind of limpet mine it was?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: No, I can't remember.

MR LAX: Was it a standard used ...

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Standard.

CHAIRPERSON: ...subject to what you've got to say, is it not, is this matter not a question of an application for amnesty in respect of sabotage in the attacking that building?  What you've mentioned is all competent verdicts that arise out of that incident and if we were to grant him amnesty, it would be in fact for sabotage of that building.

MR MGIDLANA: I agree with that Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.  Let's get onto the second.

MR MGIDLANA: In respect of the second incident which is Madeira police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR MGIDLANA: Again it will be sabotage in respect of that incident.  Murder, because we now know that there were people who were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people died there?  Seven?

MR MGIDLANA: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: How many people died?

MR MGIDLANA: It seems there are about eight Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Eight?

MR MGIDLANA: About eight yes, even though I don't know whether they died there and then, or subsequent to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Five people were injured?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, it could be in respect of them attempted murder as well as alternative loss of ...(indistinct)  Excuse me Judge?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MGIDLANA: Malicious injury to property as well. Possession and supplying of explosives and firearms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct- mike not on)

MR MGIDLANA: Grenade ja, a hand grenade.