Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MR PRINSLOO: Sir, I will put it to you of the clients that I represent who were in that area, according to them questions were put by Mr Martin, Kloppers and that they answers that they heard is that the people were members of the ANC, what do you say about that?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: That is not correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know if any of the other occupants of the other vehicle, were ANC members?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I don't know.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you attend any funeral or funerals of the other occupants in that car?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I did not go because I was in hospital.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knoetze?

MR KNOETZE: I still don't have any questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR KNOETZE: .

MR DREYER: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DREYER

MR BRINK: No re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK

MR MALAN: May I ask you Mr Mothuphi, your evidence was that when you stopped with the Cressida, the Honda was already there and the passengers or apparently the passengers were sitting on the embankment already?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So the Cressida and the Honda didn't travel together?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: No sir.

MR MALAN: Was there another vehicle that stopped with you?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: The car which was with us?

MR MALAN: Was there a car travelling with you?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: No, we were only travelling in one car.

MR MALAN: When you stopped a little way away from the road block, to help yourselves as you testified, was yours the only vehicle which had stopped there?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.  Chairperson, just one last question, the passengers of the other vehicle, the Honda, did you know any of them?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes, that is correct. No sir.

MR MALAN: The three persons that you encountered when you were asked to sit down, didn't you know any one of them?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: No, I did not even know one of them.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mothuphi, just one thing which is unclear to me.  The person who interrogated you, is it he that hit you or is there someone else behind you?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: The person who hit me, I don't know because I was looking down.  I saw the one who was standing in front of me and I don't know as to whether he is the one who hit me on the face or not.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you entirely certain that it was the butt of a rifle or the butt of a pistol or could it have been a baton?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I would say the baton, I am able to make the difference between a baton and the gun butt.  The thing which was used to hit me on the face, looked like an open instrument.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know all the people in the Cressida?  The people that you were travelling with?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you related to them?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us quickly how you are related with them?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Petrus Mothuphi is my brother.  Simon Nkompone is my aunt's son.  Martha Bereng, is my sister's daughter.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that name again?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Martha Bereng.  Martha Bereng is my sister's daughter.  William Segotsane is married in the family.  Patrick Gasemane is my sister's child.

CHAIRPERSON: When you spoke about a young fellow, were you referring to Patrick?  When you spoke about a child earlier on, were you referring to Patrick?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: When I said I rose my head, the child whom I said I saw there, I was talking about Martha.  I was talking about Martha, I saw that person there and others ran away.  I was talking about Martha.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was this Martha, sorry I think I asked this question, but I don't remember your answer.

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I am not sure, but if I remember well, she was 13 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: She was not injured?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: No sir, she was not injured.

ADV SIGODI: How old was Patrick Gasemane?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: If I remember, he was 11 years old.  If I remember well.

ADV SIGODI: Where were you going to?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: We were going to Witbank.

ADV SIGODI: Were you going to work or - I thought I heard you saying you were going to work?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: My brother was working there, my three brothers were working there.  I was going there on vacation.

ADV SIGODI: I see, thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mothuphi, did you smell any alcohol, any drink there with the people there?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: They looked as if they had some alcohol.

ADV BOSMAN: Is it possible for you to say a little more about that, or can't you really say more?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I would not be able to say more than that which I have already said.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Earlier on there was a video of a funeral which was shown here.  Do you know whose funeral that was? Have you been attending the hearings ever since they started?

MR BRINK: With respect, Mr Chairman, I don't think the video was shown here, it was on television, but it never formed part of these proceedings.  There was a video of Eugene Terreblanche.

ADV SIGODI: Wasn't it shown here?  No, the video of the funeral.

MR BRINK: Not before this Committee?

ADV SIGODI: Oh, okay, I withdraw that question then.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mothuphi, what was the - when these people stopped you and as they were talking to you, what was their attitude, were they friendly?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I don't know as to whether you talk about those people who stopped us.  Are you asking about those people who stopped us there?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Can you repeat your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: These people who stopped you, this group of people stopped you and then later asked you questions.  what was their general attitude, were they friendly, speaking with you in a friendly fashion or were they hostile?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: They didn't show signs of - they were not friendly.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody wanting to put questions to the witness, following the questions asked?  Ms Van der Walt.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

MR PRINSLOO: No questions.

MR PRINSLOO: .

MR KNOETZE: No thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR KNOETZE: .

MR DREYER: No further questions Mr Chairman.

MR DREYER: .

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: That is the only ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you do that, thank you Mr Mothuphi, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BRINK: That is the only witness I propose calling Mr Chairperson.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, may I just remind the Committee with respect that at the stage when I started appearing on behalf of Mr Oelofse, clearly already Messrs Martin, Matthews and Meiring have given evidence.  I indicated that if need be, I would request to recall them.
	I do not in any way intend to prolong the proceedings, but for the purposes of (indistinct), I would at least want to put formally on record, that insofar as Mr Oelofse might have been incriminated directly or indirectly in their evidence, in respect of the alleged order that was given by him either to kill people or to hold a road block that evening for the purposes or to cut off anyone's ear as proof thereof, or anything related to that order, it is emphatically denied.  If that would suffice, I would not request to have them recalled.  If that is just recorded formally on the part of Mr Oelofse, as the Court pleases Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand what you mean if that will suffice.  I thought you were telling us that you want to place it on record that what your client's attitude is and that it should be placed on record, and then you don't want those people, you are not asking that those people be recalled.
	I thought that is what you are saying to us.

MR DREYER: That is correct, that is what I am saying Mr Chairman.  I do not wish to recall them.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes, thank you.