Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

MR JACOBS: You see, therefore the fact that all of this, and there was no record kept of any of this, you said very candidly information was provided to you from, to you and to the Unit, the Anti-terrorist Unit about where people were at, you would do your ambushes and prepare.	Yet, you don't know any of these senior people.  I am not asking, I understand if the other junior people are not known, because that is how modus operandi, but you normally know the front people.  So for me the concern, why I ask also if the Commission can understand is, it appears to me that the structures are still then in place.
	Because you are not mentioning them, you are not prepared to mention any of them.  And if they are still in place, they would imply a serious danger to the present State.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If I may answer in this way Mr Jacobs.  I have not been at the Security Branch in surely more than seven, eight years.  You are presently a member of the Security Branch.	You would know how many different Units are attached to the Security Branch now.  And I wonder if you could tell me which Units are under who.

MR JACOBS: Now, you see I am talking about the structures being in place that wanted to maintain apartheid that even whilst there is a new State, might be in the State or might be out of the State, and is still keeping those linkages in place.  It was in that light that I asked the question.  You see why I am making the point that you potentially could have been the caucused fall guy, because it might be that you are covering for the others, either there is structures in place or then they have something more on you that you have to cover for.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: With respect Sir, I don't think I am following this question at all.

MR JACOBS: Maybe I will attempt to be clearer.  You see if you are not the fall guy for a bigger structure, it is for me apparent that you are covering for other people.  Now, is it possibly because that they have something more hidden on you.  You said earlier I have done many heinous things in my life and that that might come out and that therefore you are prepared to cover for them?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he is not covering for anybody already.

MR JACOBS: But now he hasn't, Your Honour, if I may, he hasn't mentioned what those other heinous things are, besides he said the torture and those things, he said I have been involved in other heinous things.  Then what are those, Your Honour?

CHAIRPERSON: No, it is a different question.

MR JACOBS: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a different question altogether.  We are dealing with the question of covering up for others now.  Let's get done with that, he has already told you he is not covering up for anybody.  I think you should move on to something else.

MR JACOBS: Okay.  So Captain Benzien, what other heinous things is it that you have done that you have indicated earlier?  He has admitted to the torture of the people, he has admitted to being involved in the killing, but he says there were many other things when he was asked about hanging people, which he was forced to come out with.  So we want to know those other things.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else in addition?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Chairman, I don't know if I said other heinous things.  I consider what I have given evidence in this place, as heinous.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR JACOBS: I think I will round up and basically say it was - this is probably the first time after the court appearance that I explained what had happened to me.  Benzien hasn't come up for me in my mind and the Commission is probably the legal experts and can give legal arguments, for me he hasn't come up with the whole picture, because there were other people there, he is insisting that it is not.   There were other people there, I explained that.  And he is not explaining how they operated, how they worked and the detail of - he explained he tortured me, he added electric shocks, that came after a lot of pressure for him to talk about it.
	I am very unhappy with what he has been coming out with.  I would end up with that.  I would later, if the Commission would allow me, make a submission in far more detail and explain what I consider to have happened at that time.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JACOBS

MS INTHANGA: Mr Chairman, Adv Donen will be taking stand on behalf of Mr Niclo Pedro and Mr Anwar Dramat.

ADV DONEN: May I begin.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.  May I have your names please?

ADV DONEN: My name is Michael Donen.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are on behalf of?

ADV DONEN: Of Niclo Pedro who was accused 5 at the trial of Ashley Forbes and others and I understand that only very recently on behalf of Mr Dramat, who is present but for personal reasons, I understand he finds it very difficult to ask these questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

ADV DONEN: Mr Benzien, you testified at some length at the trial of Mr Yengeni and others, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Your Worship.

ADV DONEN: And you were cross-examined at some length on what you did to Mr Bongani Jonas?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Correct.

ADV DONEN: So it was no surprise to you today to hear the allegations that you had injured his leg or you applied pressure to his leg?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

ADV DONEN: So your counsel was mistaken when he suggested it or if he suggested it earlier today?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: My counsel was not aware of Mr Bongani, it is one of the names unfortunately I forgot, a name that I should have remembered quite well.  I wasn't aware that Mr Bongani Jonas was going to approach the Commission.  The names that I have given to the Commission, are the names that I could remember at that time.

ADV DONEN: But you understand now in retrospect that you should have given his name and described your relationship and interaction with Mr Jonas?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Definitely.

ADV DONEN: You recall too that during the trial of Mr Yengeni and others, the question was raised or the allegation was specifically made against you that you had committed crimes against humanity.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

ADV DONEN: In other words the allegations were not limited to crimes that you had committed in South African domestic law, but crimes in international law which not only this country, but other countries have a duty to punish?  Do you recall that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I wasn't aware how far, but the statement was made.

ADV DONEN: Do you remember when that allegation was made and how it was made?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not absolutely sure.

ADV DONEN: I am also not sure,but I have an article from the Argus which seems to be dated the 21st of November 1989 which suggests that the allegation had been made the previous day by Adv De Villiers.  Would that be more or less the correct time?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would concede it could be that time, I am not sure.

ADV DONEN: Can you remember the context in which the allegation was made?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No.

ADV DONEN: Well, if I put it to you, perhaps I can refresh your memory.  It was put to you that certain allegations had been made and charges of various kinds involving crimes against humanity had been laid against you, abroad.	These suggestions were made to you by Mr De Villiers while he was cross-examining you, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as my memory goes, it was just that the allegations about crimes against humanity.  I was not aware of abroad.

ADV DONEN: Sorry, the charges had been laid abroad, because it is futile to lay them in South Africa, do you recall that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Laid or were going to be laid?

ADV DONEN: One or the other.  And you were asked to consider your position because you were warned that it may be that the answers  you gave in that court, after this warning, might incriminate you at some time in the future.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.