Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all.  This is the first sitting of the Amnesty Committee, today being the 20th of September 1999.  The Hearing taking place at the Durban Christian Centre.  The first application which is set down on the roll is the one of Moses Mtu Dlamini, application no AM1574/96.  Before I proceed to request the legal representative appearing for Mr Dlamini to put his name on the roll, it is my pleasure to introduce the Members who will be sitting, listening to the evidence for the duration of all the applications set down for this week in Durban.  On my right-hand side I have Adv Chris de Jager, Senior Counsel, on my left-hand side Mr Wynand Malan.  I am Judge Sisi Khampepe.  The legal representative for Mr Dlamini, kindly place your name on the roll.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, my name is Mr Panday, initial S and I confirm my appearance for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson I am Lulama Mtanga the Evidence Leader.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Panday, are we in a position to commence with hearing the evidence of Mr Dlamini?

MR PANDAY: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Will Mr Dlamini be giving evidence in Zulu?

MR PANDAY: Yes. Madam.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he been shown how to use our headphones?

MR PANDAY: I am not aware of that Madam.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, you may proceed.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini is it correct that you are an applicant for amnesty herein?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, is it further correct that you were sentenced for the crime of murder and possession of a firearm during 1994 with four others?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini during the commission of that offence ...(intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Panday, is it correct that he received a sentence of 8 years imprisonment for the murder and 1 year imprisonment for the possession of a firearm and 3 months for possession of ammunition, but the last two sentences were running concurrently so he was sentenced to an effective term of imprisonment of 9 years?

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, I was going to get to that.  I was going to lead his evidence first as to how he found himself to the point of conviction.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.  Mr Dlamini, during 1992 when a murder took place in which you were involved, where were you resident at that time?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: At Tongaat.

MR PANDAY: Was this a rural settlement?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was next to an airport.  There was a building there, next to a place like an airport.

MR PANDAY: And in the area that you lived, how many others lived with you?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: 16 people.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, at that time were you a member of any political party?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I was an ANC member.

MR PANDAY: For how long were you an ANC member?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: From 1973.

MR PANDAY: Besides being an ANC member, did you have any active role with the ANC?

MR MALAN: Just a second, did I hear you say that you have been a member of the ANC from 1973?

MR PANDAY: That is what I heard as well, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Wasn't he only born in 1975?

MR PANDAY: I take the point, Chairperson, I was going to get to it.

MR MALAN: Then get to it please, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, if you were born in 1975, how is it that you're now and ANC member since 1973?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The police made some confusion during the writing down of the statement.  I told them that I was born in 1969.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, if you were born in 1969, in 1973 you would have only been 4 years old.  Are you sure that you were still a member of the ANC since 1973?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I am sure, I am certain about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, you are not incorrect in your calculation yourself?

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, if he was born in 1969, as he says he was and if he had to be a member since 1973, that would make him approximately 4 years, since 1973 - sorry, I understand, I take the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's quickly get over this.  Won't you just ask the question pointedly?

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, in 1973 you would have been 4 years old, is that correct, if you were born in 1969?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now I ask you again, if you were 4 years old, how did you even know of the ANC back then?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: My parents used to tell me about it.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is very easy.  We would request you to listen carefully to the question and answer the question only if you understand the question.  I am going to rather warn you, the time in the hands of the Committee is very short.  We want to request you to answer the question according to what you know and as a person who is under oath.  You have testified that you have joined and became a member of a political organisation, ANC that is, in 1973.  Was that the truth?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You joined the organisation in 1973?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: My parents were ANC members from 1973.

CHAIRPERSON: In this Hearing we do not want to know anything that does not concern you.  We don't want to hear any evidence that does not reside within you.  Do you understand?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: The question when you joined the ANC, you must tell us what you yourself did to join the ANC.  We don't want to hear evidence about your family's association with the ANC.  We want your personal involvement with the ANC.  Did you at any stage have anything to do with the ANC as a political organisation?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: From 1990, here at Tongaat, that is when I met with the ANC people and even the place that we were residing at.

CHAIRPERSON: When you allude to meeting with the ANC people, what do you mean?  You stayed in the company of people?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I was staying with them.  We were made to join and we bought some membership cards for ANC, that is when we became full members of ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: You joined the ANC by paying a membership fee to a particular person, is that what you are saying?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I had a choice to do that.  I did not do that because I was forced.

CHAIRPERSON: My question does not seek to elicit whether you were forced or not.  All that I seek to find out is that you became a member of the ANC by paying a membership fee.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you become a member of the ANC in 1990?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is the organisation that I grew up in front of.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, would you say that during your growing up, the organisation that you believed in was the ANC?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you try and put the question pointedly, Mr Panday?  I thought the ground had already been laid that he wasn't really a member, he was really a supporter.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chairperson.  Mr Dlamini, just to clarify the point raised by the Madam Chair, is it correct that you were a supporter of the ANC and not a member of any structure in the ANC?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot say for sure that I was a supporter because all I know is that I was a member, I was ANC, that is all I know.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not have a card, isn't that so?  A joining card, the one that you had to pay a membership fee for?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I did not have a card, yes, that is true.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, when you were residing in Tongaat, was the entire area that you resided in supporters of the ANC?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.  They were only ANC members.

MR PANDAY: Now during 1992, in the area that you resided in, who was in charge of the people that lived in the airport area?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was Lucky Ntshetha.