Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

CHAIRPERSON: What makes things worse is that you took these two crooks to Mandla's house and you three leave from Mandla's house on this escapade of yours and yet you don't discuss it with Mandla as to:  "Look here, I'm going to bring them back here with the money, you better see to it that you are able to convince them to part with the money", you just assume that Mandla and somebody else is going to be able to do so.  How's that?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I hoped that they would understand our mission because they were also aware of the circumstances under which we lived in the township.

UNKNOWN: So are you saying, they would understand that you were on a mission for the ANC?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Even if it was not an ANC mission per se, but it was directed at defending our community, because the primary objective was to be able to buy ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me something, this crime was committed in 1991 October, correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The ANC was unbanned in February 1990, correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: By October 1991, Umkhonto weSizwe was fully operational within the country, do you recall that?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, but at that time attacks on the townships had not stopped.  We were still being attacked by the KwaZulu police.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me finish.  Do you recall that Umkhonto weSizwe was operative in the country then?  Correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I do recall.

CHAIRPERSON: And by then the ANC or MK had already structured self-defence units, correct?  Do you recall that?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: They were not formed in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure about that?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I am because there were still no-go areas in L Section.

CHAIRPERSON: That's precisely the point.  No-go areas was a phenomenon that arose with the advent of self-defence units.  Before the self-defence units came into operation, those that were causing strife had a free hand in the Council and when the SDU came about, that is when people said:  "Look, there's no go areas and this is our area, that is your area.  Let's keep apart and try to keep peace."  Do you recall that?  That's how it used to work, isn't it?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I recall that, but I do not remember any SDUs at L Section, KwaMashu.

CHAIRPERSON: But you recall that, as I put it to you?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I do recall and I used to hear about the establishment of SDUs, but it did not happen in our township.

CHAIRPERSON: You see why I'm raising that with you is that the SDUs, because you say Mandla was attached to through the ANC and the MK connections, the SDUs were being provided with firearms largely at that early stage.  It's only long after that, well not so long, the period after that they found it necessary to embark on their own fund raising methods to obtain further ammunition and firearms, but not at that early stage.  That's why I'm raising the issue of the SDU with you.  Do you follow what I'm saying?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you deal with that please.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We did not receive any assistance from the organisation in terms of firearms.

UNKNOWN: Was Mandla linked to any SDUs as far as you know?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, I don't recall.  I don't even understand the nature of the SDU's role, because it was something that I just heard about.

MS LOONAT: Mr Mahambane, all of you were armed on that particular day, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

MS LOONAT: Where did you obtain these firearms?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Mandla brought them.

MS LOONAT: Did you intend to use these loaded firearms that day?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was not our intention to go and kill anyone on that day, we just wanted to get the money.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary to come forward then?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was to be used as a threat so that they would hand over the money, because we did not shoot anyone at the bank.

CHAIRPERSON: One firearm would have done that.  Is that not so?  If it was to be used as a scare mechanism, then whether you have one gun or three guns, you'll have the same result, not so?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I do not see how my accomplices would have agreed to go there unarmed.

CHAIRPERSON: That is so.  When robbers go to a bank, they expect resistance, is that not so?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And isn't that the reason why you people armed yourselves, to overcome the expected resistance?  You know that at that time already banks were being guarded at the front door and in the bank by private guards, not so?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Before we carried out the robbery, we went to survey the area and we did find out that there was no-one who guarded the bank and the staff inside the bank were all female.  We thought that it was going to be easy to go in there and get the money.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll ask the question again.  If it was going to be that easy, why take the guns?  You knew that there could be resistance, is that not so, and all three of you were going to use your firearms if that resistance materialised.  Correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We did not know that there was going to be resistance, we just thought that we would just go in there, take the money and leave.

CHAIRPERSON: That only happened in Alice in Wonderland.  You must have known that there was going to be resistance, you expected you, all robbers expect it.  Now tell me, did all three of you go into the bank?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I was in front because I carried the shotgun.  Two of us went in and one remained outside.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did you get there?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: How did you get there?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We drove there.

CHAIRPERSON: By taxi, car, what?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: We used a private vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Who drove?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: The driver fled once we were inside the bank.

CHAIRPERSON: Who drove the car?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was Themba.

CHAIRPERSON: Four of you went to the bank.  One was driving, one guarded outside the bank and two of you went inside?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where did Themba come from?  It's the first time we're hearing about Themba now.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Themba was the driver of the vehicle.  He fled.  He could not even be found.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, you've already told us he fled, but who asked him to drive the car, or who asked him to participate in this robbery?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I asked him.

CHAIRPERSON: What's his surname?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I cannot recall his surname.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he also one of these crooks?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, he was.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you approach him?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: After I had approached these two persons, I realised that we needed a driver.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were going to have to overcome the problem of three other people wanting their share of the booty, not so?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were going to go on this escapade on behalf of a political party to rob a bank for what could easily be only a quarter of the booty, correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: The primary aim was to obtain money to buy firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any more questions Ms Loonat?

MS LOONAT: Yes, Your Honour.  Mr Mahambane, there are affidavits in the record which is submitted by your two co-accused, denying any knowledge of the political motive of the robbery.  Please will you comment on that.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, that is so, because I did not disclose to them the objectives of robbing the bank.

MS LOONAT: Mr Mahambane, please tell us what happened, how did it come about that Mr Walters was killed on that day?