Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

MS THABETE: I'm not disputing that, what I'm asking is, you've just said just now, you said you used to see the ANC people going to the bus and shouting slogans, that's how you know that the people in the bus were ANC people but earlier on you had said you wouldn't know what time the bus would go past the hostels because you left work early with the taxis before they got into the buses.  So my question is simple, did you see them boarding the buses or didn't you?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would like to explain that this is the thing that they used to do ...(intervention)

MS THABETE: Did you see them boarding the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Have you ever seen them doing that, in view of the evidence that you have previously given, that you were the one to leave the premises before ...(intervention)

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: On this particular Monday I didn't see them doing it but this is a thing that they normally do.  The reason why I didn't see them on Monday is because I left early from work.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, I'm sure inasmuch as I can see the attraction in pursuing this point you may well take up when you address us, bearing in mind  that he's already said this is what they did for the entire week preceding the commission of this offence, and the incident occurred on a Monday.  I'm sure that there will be a law that you will be able to take up when do your legal address.

MS THABETE: Thank you.
	My last question.  During your meeting when you were deciding that you were going to attack that bus, did you take into consideration the fact that there might be people who did not belong to the ANC in that bus that you were going to attack?  Did you discuss that at all, that possibility?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: We never discussed that because it never came to our minds that there will be people who (are ANC) (sic) members because we always regarded all the people in the bus as ANC members.

MS THABETE: Thank you, no further questions, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabete.  Mr Claassen, do you have any re-examination?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.  If I could just have a moment, there's just a single matter.
	Mr Hadebe, just going back to the day of the incident and the line of questioning that you indeed knew when, it was put to you that you did know when this bus more or less was going to pass by the hostel.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Could you have known, other than the fact that it had been work colleagues and Fawu members, who any of the persons in the bus might have been, meaning their identities.

INTERPRETER: May you repeat your question please.

MR CLAASSEN: Is there any way that on that particular day you might have known who the people were on the buses that returned from your workplace?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, I will be able to know which people would be boarding the bus.

MR CLAASSEN: You only knew them as ANC and Fawu members, you did not know them in person, you could not have known who they were, the people themselves?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I knew the people who were supposed to board the bus and I knew very well that this is the bus that carries ANC members, there is no other bus.  It has not been changed, there are only two buses that carries these people from Escort.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair, I'll leave it there.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Claassen.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Hadebe?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Hadebe, did I hear you correctly in your testimony when you said that the reason you didn't tell us, or you didn't tell the truth in Court, was that you were trying to avoid the case for yourself and to avoid the actual perpetrators being found out or being found guilty?  Is that a correct understanding?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct.

MR LAX: Would you in the light of that then explain to us paragraph 2 of your affidavit on page 8 where you say in the second sentence of that paragraph
"I was forced to plead guilty by my comrades despite the fact that I did not commit the crime."

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, that's how it has been stated.

MR LAX: Well we're asking you to explain that please.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: We discussed this together with these colleagues of mine or comrades and they said I should plead guilty so that many people shouldn't be arrested within the IFP, and they themselves would try to acquire a legal representative for me to help me to win the case.
	It so happened that before we went for trial, before the case was transferred to the Supreme Court of Heidelberg to Springs Supreme Court, it became apparent that they are unable to secure legal fees.  At the end of the day I had to pay the money myself and therefore I said to them; now I'm going to deny, plead no guilty in this particular case.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hadebe, I'm going to interrupt you inasmuch as I think it's very discourteous to do so, but we really do not have time.  I have been requesting you ever since we started to confine your responses to questions put to you.
	A simply question has been put to you, you have not yet responded to that question.  You say that you lied at the criminal trial in order to protect the real perpetrators of this offence, you lied there to protect them and yet in your affidavit which you signed in support of your application for amnesty you stated that they forced you to plead guilty despite the fact that you had not committed the offence.  Do you see the serious contradiction in those two statements?  
	Mr Lax wants you to explain why there are those contradictions.  You are to explain only how they come about, not to elaborate on anything else other than that.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would like to apologise, Chairperson, on that point.  On this particular statement I'm now confused as to what exactly I was putting or whatever was put down while I was giving the statement because we reached a situation where we were discussing exactly what was happening.  I would like to apologise because I  don't remember exactly what was happening at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: But this statement has been read to you by your legal representative prior to the commencement of these proceedings, is it not so?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct, it was read to me here
and even on these particular points with reference to this query, this question, and I also showed him or talked to him that I don't remember putting it like that.  We also had a problem before we appeared at the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: You can give no explanation, nor that you can't remember, it was written by you.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct, I don't know how it came to be like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Hadebe, you were telling us that on the Monday you were coming back from work, you went on to explain that Biela hadn't been able to go to work and you found him busy with a meeting when you got back to the hostel after work.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, I did explain but I was trying to clarify that Biela was no longer able to go to work in the township because of the conflict, so he had to stay in the hostel.  That is what I was trying to explain.  Therefore on the particular Monday he didn't go to work, he was just at the hostel.

MR LAX: Yes, and the meeting you found him busy with was the meeting just before the attack, is that not right, the meeting in the afternoon?  That's what I have here.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct, that was before the attack.