Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

MR BOOYENS: During consultation the contents of his statement and the allegations which he made against you were dealt with.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: He has - as far as you yourself are concerned, alleged that on occasions you assaulted him.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Would you like to comment on these allegations?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I deny these strongly, I remain with my statement - my affidavit, which is attached to my application.

MR BOOYENS: I don't think it's an affidavit.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I beg your pardon, it is a statement of warning.

MR BOOYENS: This is the document on page 84, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: Despite the fact that you said you'd like to keep this statement of warning which you've included in a different context before a different part of this Commission when you were applying for amnesty concerning the assault of a detainee, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: It was actually two incidents, Mr Jack and Mr Jones?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: If you had assaulted Mr Mthimkhulu as he alleges and the other assaults mentioned there - they are not as serious when compared to what you are actually applying for, would you still have applied for amnesty?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I would have.

MR BOOYENS: While we're on the topic of his detention, you were involved in the interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I was.

MR BOOYENS: Over the five months that he was detained and during these five months - it may not have been on a continuous basis, but he was interrogated during this period of time by members of the security branch - I know it's a long time ago but how many members of the security branch would you say were involved in interrogating him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, it would be 8 to 10 persons if I were to guess but I'm not sure.

ADV DE JAGER: I beg your pardon Mr Nieuwoudt, unfortunately we don't have this information available on the assaults of Mr Jack and the other person which you applied for amnesty for, could you just inform us why you assaulted these persons?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.  In the case of Mr Jack, I applied for amnesty during interrogation or questioning ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I want to know why you assaulted Mr Jack.  I know you applied - we don't want to know about that, but why did you assault him?  What was the reason for the assault of Mr Jack.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: To get information from him.

ADV DE JAGER: He did not want to give information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: What about Mr Mthimkhulu, did you want to get information from him as well?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: And he also did not wish to divulge information.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Why did you not assault him then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The reason why I did not assault him was because at that stage there were other persons present.  I didn't have to assault him, I asked him Mr Chairperson and his detention was already - I put questions to him, I didn't see it necessary to assault him.

CHAIRPERSON: But we've been told he did not supply any information.  What is merely putting questions to him mean?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson, I did question him and interrogate him and he didn't want to divulge information to us.

ADV SANDI: Did anyone else in your group assault him because he was not co-operating?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't have any knowledge of that but the group with whom I'd been involved did not assault him in my presence Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Could you exclude the possibility that some of the other people who were involved - because you worked in teams, is that not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Could you exclude the possibility that some of the other team members could have assaulted him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I cannot exclude that possibility.

MR BOOYENS: Allegations were also made - it's not addressed to you, I've got to state that clearly but there is also room for the possibility that he had been given thallium poisoning while in police custody.  In your statement you also referred to this, so you have been confronted with this and that happened by the 28th of December already.  Before I told you what thallium poison was more or less, did you know anything about it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Did you administer poison to Mr Mthimkhulu or do you know about anybody?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I don't know.

MR BOOYENS: So included with that, you also didn't give him poison?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I didn't, definitely not.

MR BOOYENS: In the interrogation of Mr Mthimkhulu you were a Warrant Officer still, there were many other people who were involved with more senior ranks?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Then just for clarity's sake, there was quite an intense campaign against the '81 Republic festivities, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so.

MR BOOYENS: Were many people held under the security legislation at the time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so.

MR BOOYENS: Were many people interrogated or had to be interrogated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: So all your attention was not focused on Mr Mthimkhulu?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so, I also had to deal with informers and debrief them.

MR BOOYENS: Were you satisfied - let me rather rephrase, the general situation that existed in the Eastern Cape I think was sketched by Mr du Plessis to a large extent.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: As a field worker - a person in the field, did you experience the situation to be similar to that described by him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Statements have been made and questions asked regarding exactly how ungovernable, how inaccessible the area had been, could you perhaps in your own words briefly state how during those days and I refer approximately to May when held Mr Mthimkhulu in detention until the time of his death, how you experienced the situation generally in the townships in and around Port Elizabeth and elsewhere?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Our degree of policing was very limited due to the unrest, to such an extent that many of our Black colleagues had their houses attacked, the guard services that should have been rendered were impossible to carry out so the general policing task and function on ground level could really not function properly.

MR BOOYENS: The guard services that you are referring to, were those attempts to guard Black policemen's houses?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And it couldn't practically be carried out?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR BOOYENS: What was the reason?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They were attacked.

MR BOOYENS: And the people were too scared to do those services?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, they were scared to carry out the services because they would leave their own families alone and their houses would in turn be attacked.

MR BOOYENS: Your workload at that stage particularly as far as the security branch was concerned, how serious was it - particularly in your case as a Warrant Officer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I experienced it as very taxing and quite a bit of intensified actions were required in order to identify these enemy leaders - elements, and to determine who were responsible for the unrest situation and to try and prevent this and stabilise the situation.