Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: When the alarm sounded, Khanyile left the room.  After a short while he returned, and he left thereafter, shortly thereafter and returned late when I was already asleep.

MR BERGER: And you had no idea where he was going when he left the room for the second time, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I did not know.

MR BERGER: He never told you?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, he did not tell me.

MR BERGER: Why did he come back to the room a second time before leaving?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not really notice what he had come to pick up from the room.

MR BERGER: So even after Mr Khanyile left your room for the second time, you had absolutely no idea what was happening that night, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Do you then confirm your statement at page 60 of your affidavit, in the second last paragraph, you said and I will read the whole paragraph to you, you said I would have been prepared to go together with the other residents to attack Boipatong, however, I knew nothing about the attack and was in any event sick on the day of the attack.  Do you confirm that passage?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And the first time that you heard anything about the attack, was the following day when you heard about it on the radio?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, because I went to town early the following morning.

MR BERGER: Were you feeling better?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, my chest had cleared a bit at that time.

MR BERGER: And on your way out of the hostel, you had no problems getting out of the hostel and nobody spoke to you about the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not encounter any problem.  I just got into a taxi.

MR BERGER: There was no police presence at the hostel that morning, there was nobody talking to you about what had happened the night before?  As far as you were concerned, nothing had happened the night before, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not speak to anyone the night before, and on the following morning still, I did not speak to anyone when I left.

MR BERGER: When was the first time that you spoke to anyone about the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I heard about it when I was still in town.  That is where I heard that Tserela had been attacked and people had died.  It was on the news.
	When I returned to the hostel, I discovered that police were now present at the hostel.  I went into the hostel, that was when I enquired from Mr Khanyile where they had gone to the previous evening and he said that they had gone out to fight.

MR BERGER: And did he tell you anything more about what had happened or what had happened at the stadium or anything like that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: He did not go into a lot of detail because there was a heavy police presence at the hostel.  Therefore we were not able to get into a lengthy discussion.

MR BERGER: Did you have any further discussions with anyone else after that, about the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not discuss it with anybody else, as far as I am aware.  I do not remember having spoken to anybody, but I cannot be sure because there were many of us living at the hostel.

MR BERGER: And until today, you really didn't have a discussion with anybody about what happened in Boipatong or what happened at the stadium before the attack, is that what you are saying?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: My co-accused in prison have been telling me, relating the story of what happened when they went out to attack in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The afternoon of the 18th, this was the day after the attack, is it correct that Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu visited kwaMadala hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not see them on the Thursday afternoon.

MR BERGER: Did you see them at all, on the Friday or Saturday?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I saw them on Friday, when they arrived with a police officer.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that there was a meeting of hostel residents, addressed by Mr Themba Khoza and he said to the residents that he had heard that you were responsible for the attack, is that correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not hear about that.

MR BERGER: You were asked at this meeting where Themba Khoza was, not you personally but all the residents, whether you knew anything about the attack and you said no, we know nothing about the attack?  Do you recall that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do recall that.  When that police officer was asking us, that was when Mr Khoza said we should cooperate with the police to assist them in their investigation.  So yes, I do recall that question.

MR BERGER: But you don't recall Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu saying that they had heard that you, the residents, were responsible for the attack, you don't recall that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Let me tell you what you said in response to a question at page 51, question 18.  You were asked did Mr Themba Khoza and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu visit kwaMadala after the attack and your answer was yes.
	Question 18.1, give particulars of the nature of this visit, answer, page 57, 18.1, they said that they had heard that we were responsible for the attack.  We were asked if we know about the attack.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: If that is what is in the statement, it must have been a mistake of the person who was translating.

MR BERGER: You went on to say we said that we know nothing about it.  They said that the police were busy with investigations, but that we are suspects.  They said that we must cooperate with the police.
	The first sentence that I read to you, they said that they heard that we were responsible for the attack, fits in with the rest of the paragraph.  You say it is a mistake?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, it was a mistake.

MR BERGER: Do you know that property  looted from Boipatong was burnt at the hostel on the day after the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not know anything about that property because I had left the hostel in the morning, therefore I did not see the property.
	I cannot dispute that such property may have been burnt, because there was always a fire at the hostel, because it was cold at the time.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that in your conversations with your various accused, in your conversation with Mr Khanyile, nobody told you that the goods from Boipatong had been burnt?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I don't remember anyone telling me about that property.

MR BERGER: Your deputy, Mr Victor Mthembu, never told you that Themba Khoza had ordered the burning of the goods?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, he did not tell me.

MR BERGER: You heard Mr Themba Khoza, you never heard him say that you must burn all the evidence?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I  did not hear Mr Themba Khoza saying that.

MR BERGER: I want to put it to you Mr Buthelezi, that you are not being candid with this Committee, you are not telling the truth.  You know that the goods were burnt, you know that Mr Themba Khoza ordered the burning of those goods.
	You were there, isn't that so?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I am telling the truth when I say that I do not know anything about that property.

MR BERGER: You, one of the prominent leaders of the IFP in the hostel, and you knew nothing about what was going on under your very nose, can that be true?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I do not know about a lot of things.  With regard to the attack on Boipatong, I have already mentioned that I went to town early in the morning, and returned when the police were already present at the hostel.  I was not therefore able to gather enough information, because of that police presence.

MR BERGER: The Judge at pages 294 to 195 of the record in the criminal case, found that you were in fact present at Boipatong during the attack.  You know that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what the Judge said.