Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS MOLOISANE: So, if I understand you well, what you are saying is actually that it had never happened to your Zone?  Not to your township, because you are talking here of Sebokeng township.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I was referring to our Zone, but it had happened in Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, you see when you refer to a township, then it's Sebokeng.  If you want to refer to Zone, refer to it as Zone.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: My apologies Chairlady.

CHAIRPERSON: If you say so, we would think that you don't know what you are talking about.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: My apologies Chairperson.  This thing had not happened in our Zone, it happened in other Zones.

CHAIRPERSON: You said this thing had not happened before in your township, and you said just after that it happened in Zone 7.  Are you now saying it happened in other Zones?
Apparently Mr Mhlongo is not getting any translation of what I am saying.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, it's because the Chairperson is speaking in Sotho, so he hears directly the Chairperson and the interpreters are going out in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there is something wrong with, but what I'm telling Mr Mhlongo, that little box will help you to hear me.  Don't keep it in your hand, leave it on the table.  Don't even block it with your hand.  Can I repeat what I was saying?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Your earlier evidence said these things, that is the killing of people and kidnapping of girls by the IFP people never happened in the township, they only happened in Zone 7, and you now changing.  You're saying they happened in other zones.  We want you to give us a clear evidence that we can write.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Thank you Chairperson.  Such a thing had never happened in our Zone, but it happened in other zones.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Now after that vehicle sped off, what happened?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I called the members of my unit.

MS MOLOISANE: Were the applicants in this case, Fani Mkhwanazi and John Radebe amongst your unit members, or not?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: At that time Fani Mkhwanazi was a member of my unit.

MS MOLOISANE: And John Radebe?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He was in another district.  He had not come to my district.

MS MOLOISANE: You may proceed.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I then told my unit that it should be very vigilant.  I told them that I did not want to hear anything reported to me about Zone 12.  I told them that anything that would happen in Zone 12, they will carry that responsibility.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, you may proceed.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: They listened and they kept watch at all times, until morning.  And when we met again in the morning I gave them orders that should it happen they see Hapile Ndumo they should kill her, together with her friend Mandayi.

MS MOLOISANE: Who is Mandayi?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Mandayi is the survivor.

MS MOLOISANE: Are you referring to Elsie Mokoena, the one present in the hall?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: No when you gave these orders what specific order did you give?  Did you specify what had to be done to them?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer Mr Mhlongo, what do you want to elicit from him?  He has already said he gave an order that  they should kill Hapile and her friend Mandayi who is Elsie, when they saw them.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was in the morning when I dismissed them to go and prepare themselves for other activities of the day, and I went to go and investigate the whereabouts of Hapile and I discovered that she was not around Zone 12 together with her friend Mandayi.  Mandayi was also not around Zone 12.  It took quite some time before I could assemble, before I could meet them, the year and that, before I could meet them, and I met Hapile in town.

MS MOLOISANE: That was in 1993 then?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: When in 1993 was it?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was around May.  I could not talk to her because she was busy with an operation, harassing the community.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?  I don't understand this aspect of your evidence.  You met Hapile in town.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You could not speak to her.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You wanted to talk to her?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was my wish to talk to her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why couldn't you talk to her?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I could not speak to her because she was among a group of boys who referred to me as Umvembe, upon seeing me.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these boys known to you?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I knew some of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And who were they?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Oupa Smith.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Dondo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Dada.

CHAIRPERSON: Mm.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Jabu.  Those are the ones I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know them?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Jabu once stayed, once lived in Zone 12.  Dada once lived in Zone 12.  Oupa Smith lived in Zone 13.  I just knew Dondo because he was pointed at.  I was told there is Dondo.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the ones lives in Zone 12, when you met them where were they living, did you know?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: At that time they lived in Kwamadala.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.  If you say they were busy harassing people, what were they actually doing?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: They assaulted people from the township who came to buy groceries in town, and those groceries would be taken from them.  And that actually changed my heart.  I became more cruel.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane I think this is a most appropriate time to break for lunch.  I notice the time is two o'clock.

MS MOLOISANE: I do not have any objection Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a lunch adjournment of thirty minutes, and we'll reconvene at two thirty.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: (s.u.o)

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Thank you Chair.

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair it's Ms Moloisane still, leading evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: That's true.  I'm sorry about that oversight Ms Moloisane.  You are still ...(indistinct)

MS MOLOISANE: (Cont)
	As it pleases you Madam Chair.  Madam Chair will you, will the Committee, will you read the last statement of Mr Mhlongo so that he can continue from there?

MR LAX: Yes he said that this occurrence where he had met Hapile with these people in town, had actually changed his heart and he became most cruel.  That's how it was translated.

MS MOLOISANE: You may proceed Mr Mhlongo.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Thank you Chair.  Yes, this was not acceptable to me, and in 1993 around May I co-opted John Radebe and I took him to Sasolburg for crash courses.  That's where he received his training up, and when he came back I gave him the two IC rank.  And I gave him an order, I said to him, "...Radebe should you meet Hapile and Elsie, kill them."

MS MOLOISANE: Did you explain to Radebe why he had to kill them?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I was not supposed to explain as a commander, I was just supposed to tell him what to do.

MS MOLOISANE: Where was Abraham Mkhwanazi at that time when you gave the orders to Radebe?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was the unit as a whole.

MS MOLOISANE: You may proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Before he does that.  Mr Radebe was co-opted by you in May 1993, and taken to Sasolburg for his crash course.  When did he come back from Sasolburg?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: If I remember well he came back in June.  It was a one month course.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you give Mr Radebe and the entire unit the order to kill Hapile and Elsie?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was after Mr Radebe passed his training.  The unit he was supposed to be introduced to the unit and give them his rank.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that in June?