Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, there was no danger from my side, because there were some policemen.  When I face that side there were a lot of policemen, so it seems as if they were shooting in the bushes, not to my side.

MR BOOYENS: You are changing your story, Mr Mbelo, and even if there was no shooting, if your left-hand side was in the direction of T, S and R, even with not a shot being fired, Bellingan would still be behind your back.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, Sir, because there is a stage when I moved around, because this Kombi just arrived when I wanted to look, then I said this is the Kombi, I thought to myself, this is the Kombi which they said we had to look for.  That is when I came to the back of my Kombi, that is when I saw Mr Bellingan to that, next to that Kombi.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, so now we have got you moving to the back of your Kombi.  Where at the back of your Kombi?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Right behind it, Sir, on the left-hand.

MR BOOYENS: Now, this was the Kombi that was supposing to be carrying the terrorists, as you believed at that stage?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: And you moved openly towards this Kombi instead of taking cover behind your vehicle, this dangerous people that may be heavily armed?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I took, I may, I went that way, because there was no shooting coming from that side, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: It could start again.  Here the Kombi was arriving.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was not in a position to think that they will try anything, because we were too much, too many of us there.  The firepower was too much there.

MR BOOYENS: Well, they were trying something, they were shooting at you with AK47's, they were throwing hand grenades, they were trying something, there was shooting coming from the bush and you did not know whether it was police fire.  There was shooting, they were trying something, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It is so, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: So, in other words, the line that they were not trying anything we can ignore, that is not a good one.  Let us try another one.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we try another one, you said you did not think they would try anything, because there were too many of us, the firepower was too strong.  How many of you were there?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Chairman, before I went to NY1 I dropped one of the Riot Squad members on, at the corner of NY1 and the street which came behind Dairy Belle Hostels and on the right-hand side, from the eastern side there were some of our policemen also there.

ADV MOTATA: May I just ask this, that what my brother wants to know that, can you give us an indication in respect of numbers.  You just say there were many of you, in respect of numbers.  We know, at least, you have mentioned one and there were some on the eastern side, but can you indicate a number?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am not sure about the number, how many we were at the intersection itself, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now, Mr Mbelo, very well, you now say you came and stood behind your Kombi.  What did you do when you saw this Kombi in which the perceived terrorists were travelling?  What did you do?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I did nothing, because I saw my colleague, Mr Bellingan, was already next to the Kombi and busy pulling someone outside the Kombi.

MR BOOYENS: So, you did not see where Mr Bellingan came from?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, I just saw him going towards the Kombi from the eastern side.

MR BOOYENS: Was that immediately, did he arrive at the same time that the Kombi stopped or what is the position?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, the Kombi stopped before he even arrived to the Kombi himself.

MR BOOYENS: And you say he pulled somebody out of the Kombi?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right, that is what I saw.

MR BOOYENS: From where in the Kombi?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: From the sliding door, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: So, Bellingan opened the sliding door and pulled a man out?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I did not see him opening the sliding door, but I saw him pulling the man out of the sliding door.

MR BOOYENS: Very well, the sliding door opened, Bellingan pulled him out.  How?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I say I did not see him opening the sliding door.

MR BOOYENS: I am not asking you that, how did he pull him out?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: He hold him by his ... (intervention).

MR BOOYENS: You indicate by his throat?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is, no, by his ... (intervention).

MR BOOYENS: Chest?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: ... clothings.

MR BOOYENS: Clothing in front of his ... (intervention).

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: ... throat?  Very well and was he pulling him towards, the person towards him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: He was pulling him away, not towards him as such.  He was standing like pulling a person like this, to the other side, pulling, like pulling him to the front.

MR BOOYENS: Yes and what ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: He indicated was pulling someone across the front of him ... (intervention).

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... self.

MR BOOYENS: Yes and what happened then?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Then when he was doing that I heard a shot, I saw him shooting the man.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, now wait a bit.
	Look, it is not necessary to switch this off any more, we are now on the same circuit, okay.
	Now, so, at some stage when he was pulling the man of, in front of him you heard shot?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right, no, I saw him shooting him.

MR BOOYENS: You, now you saw him shooting him?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I heard the second shot, that second shot I did not see, I hear it.

MR BOOYENS: Why did you not see the second shot?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, I was now concentrating, because there was more firepower coming from the other end of the roads in the bushes.

MR BOOYENS: So, you saw the first shot?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: He must have, virtually have, I do not understand.  So, the man was on his feet when he shot him the first time?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.  That is when he grabbed him.  It was like grab and shoot.

MR BOOYENS: So, grab and shoot more or less in the same movement?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is right.

MR BOOYENS: And where in relation to Mr Bellingan was the deceased at that stage when the first shot went off?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Repeat your question.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, I think he has grabbed him, he is pulling him out of the Kombi.  Now, at what, and then he shot him.  Had he pulled him passed in front of him already when he shot him or was he still pulling him towards him when he shot him?  That is what I want to know?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: He was pulling towards him when he shot him.

MR BOOYENS: So, he had ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Could you demonstrate with somebody?

MR BOOYENS: Try your attorney, he is getting paid for this.
DEMONSTRATION OF PULLING

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you please just repeat, because we did not see it, probably be a little slower.
DEMONSTRATION OF PULLING

CHAIRPERSON: He grabbed him with his left hand by the collar and pulled him across the front of himself.  So, he went past his right shoulder.

MR BOOYENS: Yes and another part of the demonstration that I noticed is that the first time it was indicated that the gun was pushed against his neck and the second time, I think, against the chest somewhere.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That is what I wanted to find out, Mr.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If that is what happened.  Is that what you have just demonstrated, what you saw happening?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is what I saw happening, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So, with the gun pointed at the front upper part of his body, and I know you cannot be dogmatic about it, the first shot was fired?