Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I did not even touch one of them because I was not involved in the interrogation and furthermore, I did not see any assault.

UNKNOWN: What do you say if an allegation is made that you committed illegal or unlawful acts, if Mr Motsamai and Ngo say that, any illegal acts?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Not at all Sir, I do not know anything about the alleged incidents before this commission, that is lie.

UNKNOWN: Well there's just one other thing which has not been brought up in cross-examination.  There has been a suggestion that your group of people who went up to Pretoria, were either unduly influenced or forced by Colonel Erasmus to go and see an attorney and that you were told what to say in your affidavits.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, this is not entirely correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that this is not correct, they were not forced to go and see an attorney and told what to say in their affidavits or do you say it's not correct it was said?

ADV MEMANI: Yes Chairperson.  The evidence was not that people were unduly influenced or forced to say things they did not want to say, the evidence was that Mr Motsamai was tricked into a situation where he found himself being at Pretoria with an attorney.
	He had believed that they were going to do their own amnesties.  However, when they arrived there, they saw an attorney who wanted, who he realised wanted them to speak with one voice.  That attorney took them one by one into an office and inside that office, he was reading from a certain document and he would read from the document and seek confirmation of what he had read from the applicant, that is my recollection.

UNKNOWN: Would you bear with me a moment, my attorney also has a different view about the matter from myself, Mr Chairman, may I just discuss it with him?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary to raise it at this stage?

UNKNOWN: Well Mr Chairman, I would just like to bring it to your attention because an issue had been made of it and no cross-examination has been directed in that regard and that's why I simply brought it to your attention.  It's not for me really to raise it Mr Chairman, you're quite correct.

ADV MEMANI: If I may remind my learned friend, it was him who was pursuing the matter when he was trying to show that Mr Motsamai had departed from what he had previously said.

UNKNOWN: Well, in any event, my question was inappropriate because there were two groups that went up and Mr Miningwa was part of the second group which was not part of - when the allegation was made that Mr Motsamai signed the affidavit, so may I withdraw the whole question, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: Mr Miningwa, I understand that you and Oupa Makubalo on occasions were together at school?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Will you agree with me that he knew you very well?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Yes.

MR STANDER: Was Oupa Makubalo part of the group of 19 that was arrested?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Did you see him there as well?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I saw him.

MR STANDER: Did you have part in the questioning of this group.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is not so Chairperson, I explained that I never had any association with them.  I saw them but I did not take part in their interrogation, not at all.

MR STANDER: Where you present at the offices that day, I'm talking sort of throughout the day?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: When these children arrived I did not see them.  I saw them during teatime.  It was about to 10 - it was between 9 and 10 o'clock because I was always early than anybody else.  I had other things to do because I would start working at 6 o'clock to start working and when I go to tea at 9 o'clock, they were all assembled in the kitchen.
	Well I do not remember whether they were all in there but I remember seeing a group and I heard that this was a group of children who tried to skip the country to Lesotho.

MR STANDER: Do you know who questioned them that day?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I do not know Sir.

MR STANDER: Where is your office situated in Fountain Street?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: If you listen to Mr Mbanjani's evidence when he said in 1986 he was working there, that is the kind of work I did from 1986.  I was in the office that was occupied by Mr Mbanjani.

MR STANDER: Can you please answer the question, where was your office?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I think to bring a close to my answer, it is where Mr Mbanjani - when Mr Mbanjani was working in 1986, he had an office and that is the office I occupied.  He demonstrated the distance yesterday.

MR STANDER: Could you just say where the office was?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: It was on the 5th floor.

MR STANDER: Was your office that looked out on so called: "Violent Street"?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: My door was not facing Violent Street, my office faced the main door when you enter the 5th floor.

MR STANDER: Were any of the people in that group in your office the day they were questioned?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Not at all Sir, even the members who worked at Fountain did not get into the office.

MR STANDER: Sir, the question is simple, were any of these people, any of this group of people questioned on that day, even though you say that you had no part in that?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] not at all.

UNKNOWN: And he asked Mr Chairman, with respect, whether they were interrogated in that office?

CHAIRPERSON: And the answer was: "not at all".

MR STANDER: All right Mr Chairman.
	Did you see any of these people during the day except for the time when you went to have tea like you told us?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: If I remember well, at quarter to four I would leave, either go to the kitchen or go somewhere and  I saw them and I heard that they had been taken to different places where they were being detained.

MR STANDER: Tell me, if some of them were assaulted to such an extent that they screamed, would you have heard that?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Sir, let me shortly explain.  Our offices were a bit far and I was always in a noisy area putting earphones such as these ones on my ears and I would not be in the position to hear because I would be listening at the tapes and I used to write as I'm listening.

MR STANDER: In other words are you're saying that it's possible that there was a screaming but you could not hear that because of the earphones?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Yes Sir, I did not hear screams, if there were screams I did not hear them.

MR STANDER: Is it possible that there was screaming?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I do not know.

MR STANDER: Did you see some of these people later on that day again?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I told you Sir, I said I think I saw them at about quarter to four when it was prepared for them to leave.  They were taken by other members who took them away, members of the security branch.

MR STANDER: Could you see any of them to ascertain whether or not they were assaulted on that day?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: When I went to the kitchen they passed in a group, I did not look them in the face.  I did not see as to whether they were attacked or not, I not even see bruises on their faces.

MR STANDER: Tell me, do you know a person by the name of Kwedi Kwedi?  I'm going to spell this, K-w-e-d-i and again, K-w-e-d-i.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: This is my first time to hear of Kwedi Kwedi, maybe it's another name.  If it is his real name, I do not know this name.

MR STANDER: You see, Sir, it's my instructions that you were not that passive that day as you try to insinuate here, you played an active role in the questioning and this Kwedi Kwedi was one of the people that you questioned and also assaulted on that day.