Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: Well I met the man three times.  I was introduced to Mr Mombar through a gentleman called Mole, I think, in England, who actually seems to be also in contact with Dr Basson, and seemed to be one of his colleagues or whatever.  Now this man we, this man was actually wanting - initially what I understood is he wanted storage of binary agents, not projectiles.  Now I checked again because we discussed the issue and it's a long time ago, it was very clear that in the supply of a principal, because that's all they did at Protechnic, there was never a question of supplying agent.  There was no sample taken.  Mr Mombar did mention once, and it was refused, flatly, so we never agreed to have anything to do with the agent.
 What we were interested in is to develop, which was at Protechnic's level quite an interesting challenge, initially a storage system of the binary agent that could then be utilised as a delivery system.  Now the minute this - it became clear that what we were talking about with Mr Mombar was the delivery system, we backed off completely, because we realised we were dealing with strange people and strange business.

MR VALLY: Was Mr Mombar suspected of being a member of a foreign intelligence agency?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: Yes I think - my impression, and I never had any proof to that, but I think he had something to do with the Israeli state, if I am correct.

MR VALLY: So you suspect that he was the Mosad agent for Israel?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: Probably, but we had backed-off from that completely by that time.

MR VALLY: I understood Dr Lourens, and I maybe wrong but you were here as well, as saying that there was a prototype built with VX, a nerve agent?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: No.  There was never a prototype built with VX agent.  There was a prototype built, and it wasn't a prototype, it was a - how do you call that, in a process of developing a piece of equipment, there's an initial concept design and they do a few parts to prove that it's, the project is on the right way.  It's actually - when seeing this, and seeing the work that Protechnic had done that Mr Mombar started doubting our ability to do what we said we could do, and he started becoming very worried and that's when he started talking about ...(indistinct) and that's when I started to understand that he wasn't talking about storage but projectile and I backed off.

MR VALLY: Was anything ever delivered to Mr Mombar?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: No, nothing.  Well no sorry, there was a report and some drawings, but they were the initial phase of that conceptual design on which he reacted very negatively and that's where we stopped.

MR VALLY: What can you tell us about your dealings with Dr Wouter Basson, other than the protective clothing issue?  Were you involved with Dr Wouter Basson in other respect other than manufacturing of protective clothing?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: No I wasn't, but initially Dr Wouter Basson used me to open the way, to facilitate the way to travelling, to financial transaction and to information in Europe.  And that was on the basis - at that time Dr Wouter Basson was a colonel of the army.  He had come and made his credentials in Belgium.  He was supported by the Surgeon-General at the time, and there was no question whatsoever that we were dealing with anything else but a solid motivating project where we had to bust sanctions to get the South African military to protect themselves against chemical attack and the whole reasoning was that the Russians, through Cuba, were using the Angolan war as a live testing ground.  And that was the motivation behind this thing.  So there was a great enthusiasm at that time.   There was absolutely no question of irregularities, of involvement in all the things we are hearing today.  It's only a few years later that the whole thing came out and eventually turned very sour.

MR VALLY: You did visit the facility at Roodeplaat, RRL?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: Yes when - but that's at the very end of the construction of the new building, and it's Dr Wynand Swanepoel who invited myself and my wife to look at the building, and we did go in the building and we saw baboons in cages.

MR VALLY: And you knew what it was for?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: No, not at all.

MR VALLY: And what did you think the baboons were there for?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: I believed it was an animal, it was presented to us at that time - we weren't at all in that project.  I didn't even know the word "Project Coast" that you are using.  At that time that front was completely front.  It was Wynand -he's a dentist, was a dentist, Dr Wynand Swanepoel, and he had recycled himself into animal research.  And we were showed this building as a total social get-together and well, unfortunately if I had been a scientist maybe I would have been more able to see that what we were being shown was something else.  We didn't stay very long because the animal in the cage didn't appeal to my wife at all and she decided that we should leave.

MR VALLY: When did you become aware that Dr Wouter Basson was involved in more than just looking for protective clothing?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: Late, I would say, I can't say exactly when but it's between '89 and '92 when Mr Jan Lourens started - actually Mr Jan Lourens started telling me these things and I wouldn't believe them.  And I thought it was a reflection and a result of his fighting or whatever he was involved in, that made him say things about Dr Basson that were a bit negative, and I wouldn't believe it.  But unfortunately with time evidence came out and then we started hearing about the CCB, about all sorts of things which just proved the manipulation and the willingness to get out.

MR VALLY: Last two questions.  From your personal knowledge to what extent did Dr Knobel, the Surgeon-General, have knowledge of what was happening at Protechnic at the time it was still called SDR?  Did he know all the programmes involved, excluding the screwdriver one?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: No I don't believe that - my experience with Dr Knobel, we have a term in French for this, sorry I am French, we call it the "Pigeon".  The "Pigeon" when you organise a game of cards is the person that is going to lose, and the others make an agreement and he's the "Pigeon".  I think Dr Knobel was the "Pigeon", because Dr Knobel didn't seem to know a lot of things that was happening around, even though it was in his projects, he seemed to be very well manipulated by the system.

MR VALLY: Was it a question of did not know, or did not want to know?

CHARLES VAN REMOORTERE: That you are going to have to ask him.

MR VALLY: Finally, what did you think about the security and the efficiency of the companies you looked at and eventually acquired?