Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-18

UNKNOWN: That is the other photograph that I am referring to, Mr Chairperson.
	All right.  Now, Mr Bellingan, you see those weapons that I have just referred to in photograph, which is numbered 56.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I see them.

UNKNOWN: If I can just clarify, you seem to be shaking your head with regard to the other photograph, which is photograph numbered two and which, now, do you agree that that is the same blanket that was, is lying in the veld.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I agree that it can be the same blanket.  I cannot disagree, it seems to me the same blanket which was lying in the veld.

UNKNOWN: Can one assume that the firearm which you see protruding from that blanket, on photograph number two, is, possibly, one of the weapons that you see in the photograph on page, photograph number 56?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, on the photograph on page 65 we see two AK47's with double magazines and I have previously testified that those were the weapons I brought from Pretoria or whether they were the weapons of the liberation fighters.  I did agree that that was the blanket found in the boot of the car.  I do not see am AK47 there in that blanket, I do not see an automatic gun there, an automatic shotgun and it was asked whether those were the weapons Eric carried and if those were the weapons lying under the tree.  I have already said, told to Major Brits that and he took those, whether he took the blanket as well and how the blanket came, landed in the boot, I cannot give an explanation for.  I do not say, see an AK47 here, but the blanket seems to be the same.

UNKNOWN: All right, Mr Bellingan, if we can leave aside, for the moment, the question of whether or not there are AK47's lying in the boot of that vehicle on photograph number two.  You will concede that the blanket is, in fact, the blanket that was lying in the veld on photograph number 56?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It seems to be, yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain how that blanket would have arrived in that particular vehicle?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot give an explanation, whether I had put it there or any of the other members or whether we have asked somebody to put it there, I cannot give an explanation for that.  I cannot guess about this.

UNKNOWN: You will agree that that vehicle is not the vehicle of the investigating officer in the matter?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, that was the vehicle I was driving when I was shot.

UNKNOWN: All right, if we can ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: The vehicle, the guns lying in the back of the vehicle, one of them is clearly your gun that was damaged?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other is a shotgun.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  If we could then go to the photograph number 56 itself.  You will recall that at the previous hearings in this matter, at both the trial of Anthony Weave and also the inquest, that particular photograph was presented to both those courts as being evidence of firearms that had been used by the alleged insurgents or the deceased in this particular matter, not so?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If you say that it will be like that, I have not seen that and if you say that it must be the truth.

UNKNOWN: Now, those two particular weapons you subsequently established that those were the AK47's that you had, in fact, given to Jimmy Mbane and Eric Maluleka, not so?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman, it may be the weapons, if I remember correctly.  You must remember this has happened a long time ago, was in a poorer conditions, the AK's.  I cannot remember what they looked like specifically.  I cannot say that those were those specific members.  I cannot say with certainty.

UNKNOWN: If you can just then clarify.  Do you recall at any later stage, Jimmy Mbane and Eric Maluleka returning weapons to you that you had given to them subsequent to this event?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If you refer to the weapons I gave them before this operation, they had not brought back anything to me.  I testified yesterday that I think Murder and Robbery took these weapons and presented them back to the Quarter Master.  The Tokarev got lost in the process.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, could I just on this point, Mr Williams, I do not mean to interfere with your questioning.  Mr Bellingan, you were given a bundle of documents yesterday, I am not sure exactly to what they relate, they have not really been explained, but included in that bundle is documentation relating to the activities of Vlakplaas and a whole series of statistics and one of the statistics I note from those documents is how many arms have been recovered through operations, that sort of thing.  After this incident were records of that nature kept by you for purposes of your statistics back at Vlakplaas?  In other words, how many arms were retrieved, how many arms were recovered etcetera.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, if I can refer to that encoded messages that we received yesterday.  That is the type of documentation that we would have kept, albeit at Vlakplaas or at security headquarters and at our Research Desk to say that the members got the following documents back, but then the person were to present these documents to the Quarter Master.  We did keep records like found in these encoded messages.  If that answers your question.

UNKNOWN: Mr Bellingan, I understand that this is a long time ago, but I want to get some clarity on the two AK47's.  You saying to the Committee today that you are not quite sure whether those two weapons, and you have said so in your Section 29 evidence as well, that you are not quite sure whether those two weapons, the two AK47's that we referred to, that we referred you to in photograph 56, is, in fact, the weaponry that you had given those two askaris, not so?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, it could be the weapons, it could be the weapon which was used to fire the shots, I cannot say with certainty.  If those were the weapons, it must be so.

UNKNOWN: You see, if I can just quote to you a section from Colonel, Major de Kock's affidavit that he submitted and I would like to hear your comment on that.  It is at page 13 of his affidavit and he refers at paragraph 28 to a "kripto berig" that he received from yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: What paragraph?

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, paragraph 28 on page 13.
	Mr Chairperson, I am not sure that we are sitting with the same bundle here.  Unfortunately I cannot ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure at all (...indistinct) were are not.

UNKNOWN: Could I, perhaps, start at the beginning and just say that this document is headed ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct) I have found it (...indistinct).  (...Indistinct).  Carry on, I have found it.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.
	Now, Mr Bellingan, relative to these two AK47's that we are talking about.  Colonel de Kock mentions the fact that you sent him a "kripto berig" on that particular day, detailing, inter alia, the weaponry that you had found on the scene.  Is that correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Then he goes on to say,
"I wish to refer, to bring under your attention that the weapons which you found were not from Vlakplaas.  As I have already mentioned, only two AK47 weapons and a Tokarev Pistol were issued to the members and I do not know where the other weapons had come from".
Now, would you not agree that, clearly, what he is saying there is that as far as he is concerned, only the Tokarev and the two AK47's are in, mentioned in your report to him are weapons that come from your sources?  Do you agree?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So quite conceivably, as far as his information is concerned, you must, then, have told him that, look, that these are two, three of the weapons that we found back.  Do you agree?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Just repeat again, Mr Williams.