Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I will be very brief.  It is my submission that the killing of Emma Mtsweni arose from a family dispute.  This can be referred from the evidence, or the applications of the three Mtsweni's.  I will refer the Committee to page 2 of the bundle, that is the application of July Mtsweni, paragraph 9, subsection (a)(iv), he states there
"... this was a family discussion and it was upon my grandma.  I left the meeting still on progress and when I reached home, I was told that the deceased had been burnt."
	If this is read together with the applications of Ernest and Phillip, on paragraph 9(a)(iv) of Ernest's application, page 13.  Phillip also utters a similar view, that it was a family matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is common cause that it started off as a family matter, but it didn't end as a family matter.

MS MTANGA: What appears from their evidence Chairperson, is that from the onset the fact that Emma was accused of bewitching their parents, politics were never involved in that situation, it was a family debacle, and it only, they lost control of the situation only when the comrades got involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, this thing only really started developing broader when the question of witchcraft surfaced and eventually when she confessed, then it was the end of the road.

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, but the question is the family, the Mtsweni family, the witchcraft didn't arise when the comrades arrived.  At the initial family meeting, they were discussing the witchcraft issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and they didn't believe that, they never thought that she would be involved in that, and from the perspective of the family  members, that was really only confirmed when she admitted.

MS MTANGA: That is not so Chairperson.  When July Mtsweni testified, he indicated that at the time they went to fetch Emma from Vaalbank ...

CHAIRPERSON: He was suspicious.

MS MTANGA: He was already angry and suspicious that Emma was a witch.

CHAIRPERSON: Because she had apparently run away, and he wouldn't know why would she be acting like that?

MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: But the confirmation came out of her mouth eventually.

MS MTANGA: But then the argument will also follow that there is no evidence before the Committee that will, or the basis for the applicants to link the killing of their parents by Mtsweni, to the political struggle of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, she was killed by the ANC Youth League eventually?  They associate themselves with it?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, it cannot be argued that all the offences committed by political organisations, will constitute political offences.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is true.

MS MTANGA: Yes, and this is the situation here.

CHAIRPERSON: That is true.  No, we must look at the circumstances, but the fact of the matter is as I have said to you earlier, the way I understand this, it started off as a family matter, understandably so, because it concerned mother and father, and then eventually it grew into an issue which the ANC Youth League took an interest in because now it was no longer a family matter, it is matter that concerned the ANC, because here now was an indication that this person could have been one of the people that fell into the category of opponents?  That is why it grew into and eventually landed up as an ANC action where these family members were not even present at the scene?  She was attacked when they were back to deliver the van to the house.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, that may be so, but the fact that it was taken over by the ANC Youth League, doesn't make it a political offence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no, I agree with you, we must look at the circumstances.

MS MTANGA: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But it doesn't also not make it a political offence because it is a factor that comes into it, the fact that the attack was eventually taken over by the ANC, as you say quite correctly doesn't automatically mean it is a political offence, it could be a criminal matter, it could be a personal matter, they could have a personal grudge against this old lady.  But by the same token it doesn't make it not a political offence, so we must look at it.

MS MTANGA: Yes, I agree with you Chairperson, but I would like to submit that perhaps the Committee should be careful in this witchcraft cases, especially in the areas of Mpumalanga and Northern Province.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Where witches were killed broadly by the Youth League or by the ANC as an organisation, and my argument is that should the Committee accept a situation where a person is just, because that person is killed by the ANC Youth League for being alleged to be a witch, then that should be, it can be perceived as a political offence, it could broaden or it will open the floodgates to a lot of cases which took place in this area and which had nothing to do with politics at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I appreciate that, I appreciate that submission, that is why I said to you that that fact is not a decisive fact, we have to look at the case still.  But it is just hard to imagine why these people went about and killed the deceased, it doesn't look to have been any personal grudge or any bad blood, or anything personal vis-a-vis the deceased?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would say the killing of Emma Mtsweni is in line with the material that we have received from the Commission of Enquiry and the hearing in the Mavhunga matter where it is said that at some point in the history of this province, the youth took over the killing of witches.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is why?  They say the reason for that is because these people were impeding the development of their organisation and by the same token, was obstructing the political struggle that they were engaged in.
	That is why I say to you, if you look at that, you have 200 people or 300 people there, the family members have left the scene, there is no indication that there was bad blood or a grudge or anything, vis-a-vis the deceased, and they are saying to us, that is the only evidence that is before us, that it was an action undertaken by the ANC Youth League where there leadership was present on the scene, one of the leaders accompanied the group that went to fetch the deceased where she was with her brother and they killed her in a typical political style killing, with a necklace.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would like to still argue that in this particular case where a person gets killed because she is a witch and she is alleged to affect the welfare of the youth in the area, the political link that is being created here, is very far fetched.

ADV SANDI: Sorry if I understand you correctly, are you saying that these ANC activists who participated in this incident, were actually used to settle a private dispute?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was just a purely criminal act?

MS MTANGA: This was a purely criminal act.

CHAIRPERSON: It had nothing to do with politics?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, it had nothing to do with politics.

CHAIRPERSON: All of these people, 200 to 300 people were somehow persuaded to indulge in a totally criminal act against an innocent person, that they had no personal reason to harm?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I find it difficult to agree that because 200 and 300 people mobilised themselves and attacked a person, then because of the numbers involved, we should sort of infer that because they were organised, then it must have been a political motive.  There are many instances in these areas where people are killed and they are being killed by a group of people, and it shouldn't be argued that because there was a mobilised crowd, then it was political.