Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: No Mr Chairman, I'm not saying it's evidence before you, I said in as far as Mr Coetzee would possibly testify, I don't know whether it's been agreed to.  Should he testify one would accept that the version as it stands, where these versions differ, that these people will stick to their own versions and they should not be turned around and say why was this not stated or that not stated in every small detail as was done during the Harms Commission.  I think there's a justifiable reflection of Mr Coetzee's version, I don't to get busy with cross-examination for three days, I'm sire we appreciate that sincerely.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS

MR BOOYENS: Possibly to clear something up; reference is made in reports Ugie Maclear in Elliot, was under Division Eastern Province or Border?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was Division Border.

MR BOOYENS: Which refers to East London basically.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: No further questions thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, you're excused.
MR JANSE VAN RENSBURG IS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: I believe it is my turn Mr Chairman, Visser on record.  I call Gerrit Nicholis Erasmus.  While he's on his way to the witness stand may I deal with some householding matters Mr Chairman?  At a previous amnesty application in regard to Mr Mthimkulu a formal application was moved on behalf of this witness to amend his application formas in paragraph 7 A and B, therefore the remarks made by Commissioner de Jager regarding your formas of equal applicability to that of Mr Erasmus, I see that that has not been changed.  We will certainly see to it that in future applications if any, that will be taken care of. In the mean time Mr Chairman could I ask you please at page 30 of volume 1 to just make a note at paragraph 7A of the amendment that had already been granted to say in 7A, National Party, 7B, supporter.    Thank you Mr Chairman.

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Are you G-e-r-r-i-t   N-i-c-h-o-l-i-s, Erasmus?   Mr Erasmus, in front of you you have page 30 of Volume 1.  This is an abstract from your amnesty application.   I have it yes Mr Chairman and in this application you are going to refer to page 31 where you've applied regarding the elimination of Mr Sizwe Kondile.

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: On page 32 we have pages here, on page 32, paragraph 10.A and 10.B where you've been asked to describe your political motives.  On page 32 it says, see paragraph 10 A on page 5, or unfortunately because this is an extract that has not been included, we have made photocopies which we submit Mr Chairman, can conveniently be added to your papers as page 30 A, B, C and D for this applicant and I believe you have received them already.
	Mr Erasmus if you look at page 30 to 30.B, do you confirm the contents of the application as it is in front of you in your evidence under oath?

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: I confirm this Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Can we just look at some background, go through it quite quickly and perhaps finish today with a general background.  In your application you referred to certain documentation which you have requested should be added and should be regarded as part of your application.
	In paragraph 10.A on page 30.D you have referred to a document with the title: The Establishment for Equality before the Law.  This document has already been presented to the Amnesty Committee as an exhibit marked Exhibit P.45.  You refer under 10.B to a submission of the 21st of October 1996 by van der Merwe and that exhibit number is P.46.  And attached to that exhibit, P.46 there was also a statement by various generals to which you are also referring and that will be P.47.  You are asking the Amnesty Committee to regard it as part of your amnesty application?

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: That is correct yes.

MR STEENKAMP: If I just can add, the documents are available, a bundle of documents consisting of more or less 250 pages and I didn't deem it necessary to make a fourth bundle, fifth bundle, the documents are available, if you do need them.

CHAIRPERSON: .....to the extent that they are referred to, the portions of them that are referred to, we'll have copies made if it is necessary to do so.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman I'm indebted to my learned friend as well as to yourself.  The idea is that this is not to be dragged up before you again, I think you've seen enough of those documents.  If there's anything that crops up we will certainly refer you to it but the main purpose of incorporating it now is that in argument as we've stated before, reference will be made to certain aspects and if there's any issue as to the admissibility thereof we will refer to those exhibits and that's only for that purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand, thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus under oath you also gave evidence in the Mthimkulu matter where you also applied for amnesty.

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: That is correct your Honour.

MR VISSER: And as far as it is relevant to this application you are also asking that that evidence should be considered in regard with this amnesty application.
	Lastly you've listened to the evidence of Mr Herman  
du Plessis who testified here especially about the background and the circumstances which gave rise to the decision to eliminate Mr Kondile.  Do you agree in principle that the evidence he gave here is the same as the information he provided to you when you decided upon that?

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: If we can come then to your career in the South African Police.   In Volume 3 on page 207 to 211, in this Mthimkulu Trial you've given an overview of your career, you've presented it to the committee and this is on page 207 in Volume 3.  I'm not going to ask you, I've done this previously, you've read this into the record during the previous trial, but with the chairman's permission, I would like to suggest that I'm going to give you a summary and you can confirm it.  Or if there's something you want to change it, you can do that.

MR DE JAGER: Can't you confirm the whole thing?

MR VISSER: The summary is in front of you but I promise you I will be quick.
	Mr Erasmus, please stop me if I say something which is wrong.  I'm going to read it slowly so that it can be interpreted.
'On the 3rd of January 1957 you were attested.  In 1958 you successfully completed a detective course and you were placed in Marshall Plein in Johannesburg.'
I wonder whether I could ask the interpreter to give me a signal or is that fine?  Thank you.
'Then of because of your father's illness, on request you were transferred to Cape Town and in January 1959 you were transferred to Caledon Plain in Cape Town.  Then you did not do your promotional exam because of the unrest in 1960, but later on in 1960, you were appointed as branch officer in Umzimkhulu in Griqualand West and were promoted to sergeant.  In the first half of 1961, the district commander of Kokstad instructed you to go to Pondoland as a detective and to assist there with unrest related investigations'.
I want to ask you now, during that stage Mr Erasmus, you told me, you for the first time in 1961 had to do with a certain phenomena, what was that?

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: That phenomena was the insurgence from the side of the black population, the insurgence against the dispensation.

MR VISSER: Were those signs of intimidation at that stage?

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: There were not only signs of intimidation, there were incidents of murder, arson..

MR VISSER: In other words, if I can say that by 1981 you've already had 21 years of experience, experiencing the extent of intimidation?

GERRIT NICHOLIS ERASMUS: That is correct.