Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I remember.  With regards to what you are referring to now, I am trying to explain that I wrote the statements under those circumstances where I was not aware ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think Counsel is aware of your explanation for that, what Counsel wants to know is this, when you were giving your evidence in chief,  you corrected certain information which were contained in your statement.
	If these are the matters to which he has drawn your attention, were mistakes - what he wants to find out is, why didn't you correct them at the same time when you were correcting the others?  Is that what you want to find out Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: It is Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.  It was a mistake for me not to correct this inaccuracies.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that the documents that you were referred to this morning, have recently been explained to you yet again?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, my Attorney did explain.

MR BERGER: By the 14th of June 1992, even on your version in your application, a decision had been taken, an order had been given to attack Boipatong.  On that Sunday, is it correct that Mr Themba Khoza visited kwaMadala hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not see him.

MR BERGER: Your deputy, Mr Victor Mthembu, says that Mr Themba Khoza did visit the hostel, in fact addressed a meeting of all the residents in the hostel.  You were there, you must have attended that meeting Mr Buthelezi?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Mr Berger, I think Victor made a mistake.  I would not have been able to see Mr Khoza if I was absent.  I would have seen him if I was present at the hostel at the time.

MR BERGER: You say there was a meeting at the hostel on the 13th?  Mr Mthembu says there was a meeting at the hostel on the 14th.  Whichever date that meeting took place, whether it was on the Saturday or the Sunday, Themba Khoza attended that meeting, do you dispute that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.  I would, but I would also explain what we were discussing at the meeting of the 13th.  Can I just explain this?

MR BERGER: You were discussing as you have told the Committee already, the June 16 rally that you were going to attend, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I am talking about a meeting where Themba Khoza was there, Mr Dlamini was there, the problems that the hostel residents were facing, were discussed.  You say there was no such meeting?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I thank you for that question.  I will just like to explain with regards to Mr Keswa's statement, Mr Victor Mthembu's statement.
	Mr Dlamini was a representative of the kwaZulu government.  As far as I know, he came to us when we were in prison in October.  The person who was present when the Boipatong incident took place, was Mr Velazi, who was the then representative, at the time.

MR BERGER: Mr Mvelazi?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, it was Mr Velazi.

MR BERGER: Did he come and address the hostel residents on the Sunday before the massacre?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I explained before, I do not know anything about that meeting, and I did not see him.
	He did not frequent the hostel.  If he wanted to communicate anything to us, he would normally call us to his place.

MR BERGER: You say in your further particulars at page 53, paragraph 2.3, that as leader of the youth, I used to take orders from the Johannesburg office or from the leader, who stayed in the kwaMadala hostel.  Do you confirm that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.  I have already explained that Mr Khoza was the Regional Chairperson in the Transvaal.

MR BERGER: And that is the person that you took orders from, from the Johannesburg office, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I received my instructions from Mr Khoza.

MR BERGER: Who was the leader that you referred to, that stayed at the kwaMadala hostel, that you took orders from?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The leader I was referring to, was Mr Khumalo, the Chairperson of the IFP at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Did you discuss the decision to attack Boipatong with Mr Themba Khoza?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It was not easy to discuss such a matter with Mr Khoza, because I knew that the policies of the IFP were against the decision.

MR BERGER: Did you discuss the decision to attack Boipatong with your deputy, Mr Mthembu?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not discuss it with Mr Mthembu because he was a young fellow with whom I could not discuss such a matter.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I have explained, that we had a caucus meeting, I felt it important that I should discuss that matter with mature individuals, who were the leaders.

MR BERGER: So here was something that you say all the residents of the hostel were crying out for, an attack on Boipatong, and yet you didn't even discuss the attack or the decision to attack, with your own deputy?  Is that your evidence?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I am trying to explain that if you were a leader, it is not easy to divulge sensitive information to a person that you do not trust completely.
	Such a person may misuse that information.  Therefore I was not in a position to discuss that matter with him.

MR BERGER: You say that there was a political war between the hostel residents and ANC sympathisers in the townships, the townships of the Vaal, is that what you said?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is true.

MR BERGER: As one of the senior leaders, would I be correct if I said that you were aware of what was happening politically in the country at that time?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was familiar with what was happening politically in the country, because I used to listen to the radio bulletins.

MR BERGER: You knew about the political negotiations at CODESA that were taking place?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was aware of the negotiations that were taking place.

MR BERGER: You also knew that the political violence in the Vaal really took off on the 22nd of July 1990, am I right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct because I was also present when it erupted.

MR BERGER: And that 22 July 1990, coincides with the date of the first IFP rally in the Transvaal, am I right, or in the Vaal, let me say in the Vaal?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You know Mr Victor Mthembu talks about the 40 or 50 men who came from Umsinga, who fomented violence in the townships of the Vaal and who stayed at kwaMadala, you have heard that evidence?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did hear him giving that evidence, but I regarded it as a mistake.

MR BERGER: And you also know about the activities of - or the alleged activities of Mr Victor Keswa and his gang?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I heard about it here.  I did explain that at the hostel, no one was restricted in their movements.
	I was not aware about what they did when they left the hostel.  I also minded my own business.
	Therefore with regards to Victor Keswa, I am not aware of what activities he did outside of the hostel.

MR BERGER: And you never listened to the allegations on the radio, so you are not aware at all of that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: There were many allegations that were levelled against Victor Keswa.  He was accused of being a hitsquad member.
	There was an incident that happened in Zone 7, he was alleged to have been the person responsible for that attack, but the truth is that at that time, he was in hospital, in (indistinct).  That is where he was hospitalised.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Mr Buthelezi that the political war that you speak about, was an IFP strategy to destabilise the townships of the Vaal for political purposes?
	Isn't that the war that you speak about?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Let me just explain about the rally that was held in Zone 7.  Maybe you would understand the facts better.