Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember correctly.

MR LOWIES: Did everybody wear red headbands?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, the hostel residents.  The Police were clad in balaclavas.

MR LOWIES: What was the colour of the Police casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were the same colour as the small SAP vans, they were yellow.

MR LOWIES: All of them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, all of them.

MR LOWIES: Not one was camouflaged?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I just saw the four yellow casspirs.

MR LOWIES: Were there not six, is it not possible that there were six, six casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I saw four casspirs, not six.

MR LOWIES: Because in your statement you say
"... I  saw four to six casspirs parked in the field ..."?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that number, six, I only saw four.

MR LOWIES: Did you enter actually into one of those casspirs, or were you one of the ones that walked next to it, beside it?

CHAIRPERSON: But isn't his evidence that he was in the Police casspir?  He has repeatedly said this and you have canvassed this.

MR LOWIES: I withdraw the question.  Can you recall who was in the casspir with you?

CHAIRPERSON: You have asked him these questions, have you not Mr Lowies?  I cannot locate the specific area in my notes, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, Mr Lowies and allow you to ask the question.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.  Who were in the casspir with you, on your way to Boipatong?

MS CAMBANIS: After lunch on Monday, Chair, a few pages after lunch.

MR LOWIES: I did not ask anything on Monday, he was still in chief.  I started on Tuesday morning as you can recall.

CHAIRPERSON: He was only cross-examining as from Tuesday.  Cross-examine him.

MR LOWIES: Could I get the names please of the ones with you in the casspir?

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, the time now is about five past one.

MR LOWIES: It a convenient time to take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Could I maybe just request from you Chair, to get the answer before we adjourn or would that be inconvenient to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, get the answer.

MR LOWIES: I am indebted to you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was with Gatchene, Lucky Stikenauw as well as Dondo and Themba and other Police Officers, Peens amongst them, Rooikop as well and Chaka and some other fat Officer who was driving the casspir.

MR LAX: Could you just repeat, not the Policemen but the other people that were with you, I didn't catch all the names, I am afraid.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned Gatchene, Lucky, Dondo, Themba who ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: And myself.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, so there were five of you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  Gatchene was an induna.

CHAIRPERSON: Lucky, Dondo, Themba, yourself and then Chaka, Peens, Rooikop and the driver?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We will come back at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o)

MR LOWIES: (cont)
	Thank you.  Mr Nosenga, do you know a person by the name of Tsamo?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I know Tsamo.

MR LOWIES: Was he also in the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't remember.  No, I don't remember.

MR LOWIES: Do you know a chap by the name of Makuka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I know Makuka.

MR LOWIES: Was he in the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, not in the casspir in which I was travelling.

MR LOWIES: Do you know a chap by the name of Makeze?

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MR LOWIES: Makeze.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you spell it for us please.

MR LOWIES: Makeze.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't quite understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Speak up Mr Nosenga.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know the person he is talking about.  Maybe if you can write the name differently I can know.

MR LOWIES: Mkhize?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I know Mkhize.

MR LOWIES: Was he in the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember him present in the casspir.

MR LOWIES: In the attack on Boipatong, was there anybody from Natal who took part in this attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Even though I don't know them personally, they were present.  There were many people from Natal during the attack.  I don't know them.

MR LOWIES: How can you say they are from Natal?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They are men from Natal, they speak Zulu, they are not from around the Vaal, that is why I am saying they are from Natal.  They speak Zulu.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, can I just clarify this with the applicant.  When you say there were many people from Natal, were these people from the hostel who came from Natal, or were these people who had arrived from Natal to the hostel, specifically for the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: No, which one?  Do you understand the difference?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand the difference.

ADV SIGODI: Let me say it again, it can either be people who stayed in the hostel, but were from Natal, or it can be people who were from Natal, but who had arrived at the hostel specifically to assist maybe specifically for the attack?  Which is which?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were residents at the hostel, many of them were originally from Natal.

MR LOWIES: Have you ever been to Masinga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know Masinga.

MR LOWIES: Did you know anybody from Masinga at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were people from Masinga, yes, but there is no one particular person that I can point out as having come from Masinga.

MR LOWIES: Did Chaka say anything to you on the way to Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember sir.  Yes, they were talking, but I cannot remember.

MR LOWIES: Did Chaka say anything that he has something against the people in the township?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, what are you looking at?  Look up so that you can hear what the question is.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: May the question please be repeated?

MR LAX: Just one second, are you having a problem with your headphones again, you seem to be touching them and rolling your eyes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I hear, but I do not understand quite well.

MR LAX: If you put that thing again facing this thing on the end of the pole here, you will hear a better signal.  Can you hear properly now?  Put it flat, can you hear?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can hear.

MR LAX: Clearly?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Sorry  Mr Lowies, let's just make sure it doesn't happen again.

MR LOWIES: I understand, thank you Chair.  Did Chaka say anything regarding this attitude towards the people in Boipatong on your way to Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: Do you know of your own accord whether Chaka, or do you know from any knowledge, whether Chaka had problems with the people in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I said I don't know but then I don't think he could have had a problem with the people of Boipatong, because his house was burnt down at Zone 6.

MR LOWIES: How do you know this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: People of Boipatong did not harass him in any way.  I am saying that I cannot know as to why he attacked Boipatong, because the people of Boipatong did not harass him, because his house was burnt in Zone 6, Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: Did Chaka say that he had to kill the dogs because his house had been burnt down by the ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember sir.

MR LOWIES: Mr Chairman, I had been bribed by my colleagues to stop my cross-examination, no, in all seriousness, I have no further questions.  The further aspects fall better within the ambit of knowledge of my other colleagues and at this stage then, I have no further questions.