Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Well if you allow me to continue because I will give you the opportunity.  I also don't want you to justify because they are matters of the heart, that if not pursued at the time cannot be justified at any time, and so I don't want to put you in a difficult position by asking you to justify. I am pursuing your heart as Ms Mkhize indicated.  And I am saying for two years these very people that you cared about, that you were willing to protect at any cost, you did not reach out to them either through correspondence or sending your legal advisor or somebody. May I also ask you if after the aftermath, when people were scattered all over the stadium now taking into consideration security did you walk around to see what actually happened, or did you get reports indirectly?  Did you actually see the aftermath?

UNKNOWN: Yes I did, afterwards, I think it was around four o'clock or five before I went home I asked to be taken there so that I can see exactly what happened so that I can relate to whatever reports I was going to get having seen what was on the scene.  Unfortunately I remember that immediately thereafter it was interpreted as if I went there with my (...indistinct) and gloated which was unfortunate.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: No I would not have interpreted as that.  I think I would have interpreted it as consistency in your behaviour caring about your people.  But what I find inconsistent and you have declared your love to your people today, what I find inconsistent is that neither you nor your office reached out to any of the survivors, their families and victims. I asked you to scan the second, third and fourth row because that is just a small sample of the after effects, the after effects of the massacre.  This document presents some political positions, I asked you to scan because what you see as a sample of the aftermath cannot in any way be represented in this document.  I ask you again Brigadier without casting blame on the ANC and its leaders, but looking at yourself as custodian of the people in the Ciskei, I ask you again is there anything you want to tell this small sample population of people sitting on the second, third and fourth row?  You don't have to because you see I ask you to speak from the heart and that is why I asked counsel not to interfere because this is not a legal question.  It's not a legal question.  I ask you again because this is your opportunity Brigadier.  Reconciliation with your people does not depend on how articulate you are today, but it depends on how you look at them, and not wonder whether what you are saying is legally or politically correct.  And so I appeal to you to speak from the heart and look at the people sitting on the second, third and fourth row.  Thank you Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: I am sorry Mr Chairman am I expected to do that now or are we through now?

MR POTGIETER: No Dr Ramashala has said that she leaves that option to you.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson may I - I don't think you are going to get this opportunity ever again because you are not going to find this group of people assembled in this way, and so if you choose to deal with it in any other way you are going to have to go door to door or you are going to have to call a meeting of not just the people from the Ciskei but specifically the survivors of the massacre.  So if you don't do it today I think Brigadier you will be losing a wonderful opportunity towards reaching out to your people.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I thank you very much for this opportunity ...(intervention)

MR POTGIETER: Order please, silence, silence, thank you.

UNKNOWN: I would like to clear this that this consultation which we did with my legal advisor was not purely on documents and press cuttings only otherwise we would have had a big, big thing here.  We also desisted from choosing material that would throw blame at anybody.  We tried not to.  I also didn't want to justify myself in anything that I did, because I know that it is not necessary.  The thing has happened.  Perceptions are around people and I am a skunk.
 And I would like the people here, I have never seen them, I don't know them, even when they were marching there I didn't know who was marching there, I only saw pictures you know, and I am sure many of them also never saw me, except only on TV and things like that.  I am aware of that.  Some of them may believe that I am a terrible person.  Perhaps I have done terrible things to them, or which affected them.  Perhaps they did it in sympathy of their organisations.  But I must say that I am very, very humbled to get an opportunity to see some of them, not that I am happy with what has happened to them, but I would very much like them to put it in their hearts, I know it is difficult, they may forgive but they say, in many cases, one cannot forget because every time you see that little boy you remember that he has no father and you will remember Gqozo.  I want them to know that I regret that it ever happened and if anything can be done to replace their loss then I pray God a plan be found to do it.  And I would like to look at them and say please forgive me.  I know that I don't deserve your forgiveness under the circumstances.  I am viewed widely as a person who made your woes to happen.  And I want to tell you from my heart that I never willed and I never wanted your people to be killed.
 I will not be surprised if you take time to do it.  I will not be surprised if you reject my offer offhand.  You have lost loved ones, you have lost your sons, I know, but I would like you to consider that whatever was the plan I tried by all means, in my small capacity, to say please let's follow it this way, please let's not follow it this way.  It went beyond my power.  It went beyond my control.  And again I would like to say to you, I am not justifying myself, you believe that I cannot change you not to believe it, God will change your heart when the time comes.  I am not here making myself a holier than thou something.  I believe in God and I believe that he can heal us.  Your problem is not depending on me to heal it, it depends on how hard you work towards that, so that you remove it as a stumbling block towards receiving more blessings from God, and only in that way I will ask you for forgiveness and release your powers to heal on you through forgiving me.  I thank.  I thank you very much.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson my last appeal, and this is on behalf of some of the victims and survivors who were here yesterday and those who are here today that I managed to talk to, in their very generous spirit they acknowledged that perhaps you are a victim just as much as we all were victims, in their generous spirit they are in the forgiving mode, however, they believe very strongly that you need to say what contribution the South African Government played in events that led up to the massacre, because we know your financing came from the South African Government?  In fact many questions were asked of Mr Pik Botha, who by the way, suggested that you were an embarrassment to the South African Government, but your people are not concerned about that, they want you to come clean and tell them who was the force behind you?

MR POTGIETER: Thank you, order please, order.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson I will leave that question to Brigadier Gqozo and perhaps legal counsel.  Thank you very much.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.  Order please, order.  Thank you very much.  Brigadier you want to say something before I ask for the next questioner to proceed?