Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

ADV BOSMAN: And I also followed it up by saying whether you thought that Black and White people would indiscriminately now start killing each other?

MR LE ROUX: No that wouldn't have happened Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you see it, how was it going to happen according to you.  Were the political groups going to attack each other?

MR LE ROUX: Yes the basic political groups, in other words the MK, the ANC, fighters would be involved in certain operations and amongst the AWBs and the right-wingers certain people would be killed among them, that type of thing Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are saying that at one stage you did question these activities.  Did you discuss that with Barnard?

MR LE ROUX: Sorry Chairperson I didn't hear well?

CHAIRPERSON: This bomb planting strategy, you questioned it and also discussed it with Barnard?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you felt that you could discuss it with him and question it?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't a question that you simply followed instructions?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson, but he told me listen these bombs have to be placed there and the instructions come from the Staff Generals.

CHAIRPERSON: You had the feeling that he could have chosen somebody else to do that work if you did not agree to do it?

MR LE ROUX: Definitely Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So once again it was not a question of you going through this because of the instruction you received, you did it yourself?

MR LE ROUX: No I did it under instruction Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you could have pulled out from it and he would have found somebody else?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you wanted to be part of this?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I wanted to be part of obtaining of a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you want to be part of the bombing?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You could have decided not to do it?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you go ahead with it?

MR LE ROUX: I saw myself as part of this team which was fighting for certain principles and it was because of that I said okay let's do that.

CHAIRPERSON: You discussed the whole thing with Barnard I assume also the consequences and you knew why the bombs had to be planted?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that this whole plan or plans would have necessarily entailed the death of people?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR LE ROUX: I don't know Chairperson.  I said that that will be the effect, and that's the way we discussed it Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's the point, you discussed it with Barnard and you can't tell me why the taking of lives was necessarily part of the plan?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson in order to plant a bomb and you blow away a lot of bricks, it's not going to draw the attention of anybody, but if a few people died, that's newsworthy.

CHAIRPERSON: So the taking of lives was deliberate?

MR LE ROUX: Yes it was Chairperson.  That was my instruction Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's talk about the planting of the bomb in Bree Street, I don't know what it's called in Afrikaans.  We all know now and a great part of the community before April 1994 knew that the personnel of State or government buildings came from a certain part of the community, they were White people.  Is that not so?

MR LE ROUX: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not maybe the reason why government were not the targets because the possibility existed that White people could have been killed or that Sunday evening they wouldn't have a job on the Monday?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson, the instruction was that we place the bomb there.  If it was planted in front of a post office then it would have depended on the General staff.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you imagine or suggest rather that the bomb should be placed before the post office or other government building?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson I said why didn't we blow up a power station, that was my suggestion.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reaction to that?

MR LE ROUX: He said no that's not why we are here.  The instruction is to specifically bomb those places as we bombed them.

CHAIRPERSON: Buildings with people in them?

MR LE ROUX: Yes buildings with people.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not (inaudible)?

MR LE ROUX: I don't know Chairperson, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But you were the person who had to decide about a specific place in Johannesburg because your friends did not know Johannesburg very well?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson the other people, like I've said, didn't even know where Johannesburg was.

CHAIRPERSON: That's my point.

MR LE ROUX: I knew where it was, I knew the basic set up and my instruction was go to Johannesburg and indicate to us a place where we can place this bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not at a sports stadium?

MR LE ROUX: I do not know Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You could have chosen, it's in the middle of Johannesburg?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard said with the Bree Street bomb he wanted buildings.

CHAIRPERSON: And one of the biggest buildings in Johannesburg is a sport stadium?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why not the sports stadium?

MR LE ROUX: As I said, my personal idea was to find the quickest route into Johannesburg and there where you find buildings, that's where you plant the bomb and you leave immediately Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think Bree Street was the place that you leave from the quickest?

MR LE ROUX: Is the place I could have disposed of the bomb in the quickest way.  To drive with a bomb is not a nice thing.

CHAIRPERSON: I accept what you're saying, I have never driven with a bomb.  Now the time when the first bomb was planted, did you know that Mr Viljoen was now going to take part in the elections?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore he was distanced from the plans of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: I never got the idea that he was at a distance from us, we all had the impression that he was following, he had other options to follow.  He also still had the military option and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But he exercised his option right before the election?

MR LE ROUX: Yes but he spoke of this option specifically at the meeting at the show in Pretoria, that he wanted to go and vote.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's the point, if he chooses one of the options it excludes the other.

MR LE ROUX: He did not reject the military option Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he ever say that he was going to exercise both options.  Then it's not an option, it's two strategies, isn't it?

MR LE ROUX: That correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you keep talking about an option which he chose and the option he chose was to take part in the elections and therefore it excludes the other option then?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, with the two things that he chose, the one was the negotiation with the elections and the other one was the military option.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the last aspect I want to deal with, when you were on your way to Ventersdorp did you know or did you have an idea that there's going to be interference or an effort to interfere with the election?

MR LE ROUX: I thought there would be total chaos and disorder with the election.

CHAIRPERSON: Which you and others would have caused?

MR LE ROUX: Yes which others as well as myself would have caused.

CHAIRPERSON: When you said to your wife look we're closing up the business, we're going to Ventersdorp to stay on a farm and these are the reasons, did you know that one of the things that you were going to be asked to do was to interfere with the upcoming elections?

MR LE ROUX: I suspected that we might be tasked to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: That was one of the things that had to be done?

MR LE ROUX: Look we realised that we had to stop the elections Chairperson, we realised this before the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know how?