Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get the translation.  Where was Muandla's house?  The translation didn't come through?

INTERPRETER: The applicant said the house was above theirs.

CHAIRPERSON: Muandla's house was above the applicant's house?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So you say people came, people from the area came when they heard the women from your house screaming.  What did they do?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There were a lot of people who came running and this group could not then enter the house, they just took another route away from my house.  Eventually they returned to Amos' place where they were residing.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So you were still at Muandla's house?  With whom were you there?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: As I was still at Muandla's house, a lot of people came to that house, that is people from the neighbourhood and some of my comrades.  We all converged at that house.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Only people from your area were at Muandla's house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At that time, it was just the residents, neighbours who could, who had witnessed and could hear what was happening.  As they were still standing there, we were also a bit confused.  As we were still standing there, some people from a neighbouring area arrived.  There were many of them, I do not know how the message got to them or how they came to our area, but they were coming from Gangala.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You were at Muandla's house, what were you doing there, just standing?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: We were standing around, discussing this matter, still deliberating on what to do.  It was not easy for me to go back home at that time.  Muandla's house was level to the house in which these people were residing.  As we were still standing there, talking, this group of people from Gangala then approached.  They approached and passed Amos' house and proceeded to the house in which I was standing, that was Muandla's place.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What did you decide after discussing this matter with the community and after the arrival of this Gangala people?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: A decision was taken to approach this people so that we find out who they are and what their purpose of coming into the area was.   We then left and went to Amos' house where these people were.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Please proceed.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: As we got there, the house was surrounded.  Some people went into the house and these people were removed from the house.  We proceeded to that spot where we usually held our tribunals.

ADV DE JAGER: Kindly, you say we went to this house, but you were the elected leader, did you take a leading part in going to the house and entering the house and getting the people out of the house?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: As I explained before, people from a neighbouring area came and their leader, Nhlanhleni Makhaya, enquired from me as to what was going on and I explained the situation to him.  Then they suggested that we go and approach these people so that we find out the facts from them.  That was when we went to that house and we found them in the house, removed them and took them to that spot.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What happened at the place where you used to hold your meetings?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That is where we questioned them about their identity and the purpose of their visit, what they were going to do.  We then learnt that they were from Umlazi and from what they explained, they said they had come to get Martin's hand.  Apparently when the body of Martin was found, a hand had been missing and they had been told that I had that hand.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Did you ask them who told them that you killed Martin or who alleged that you killed Martin?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I did ask them.  They explained that they personally did not have information, but they had been approached by Amos and Nococanya  who had informed them that I had killed Martin.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You said you asked them what their political organisation was, what answer did they give you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At the time, I was not the person who was questioning them but I do remember that they were questioned on that aspect.  Some indicated that they were not affiliated to any political organisation and some said they belonged to the IFP, and one of them said he was an ANC member.  I think Ernest was Martin's brother.   He was further questioned on the ANC and from his answers it became clear that he did not have any knowledge with regards to the ANC.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What happened to these people after the questioning?

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose before you proceed?  What was the purpose of questioning these people about their political affiliation?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The reason for that was because of the circumstances.  We had expected that if there was a person who was concerned about Martin's death, we would have expected that person to go to Martin's house, but when we questioned Martin's family or the people that he had been living with, they denied any knowledge of these people.  That was why we questioned them because we also suspected that they may have been members of AmaSenora or members of the IFP.  We wanted to know as to why they had been there, maybe they were using Martin's death just as an excuse to attack the people in the community or if they had been really sent to revenge Martin's death.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was doing the questioning?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There was Nhlanhleni Makhaya, he posed the questions although there were other people who also posed questions.  I, myself, also asked some questions.

CHAIRPERSON: What questions did you personally ask?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I asked them if they had found Martin's hand, what would they have done thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and what was the response thereto?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They said they would have just taken the hand and returned home.

CHAIRPERSON: Nhlanhleni Makhaya is the leader of Gangala Youth League of the ANC?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not a member of Gangala Youth League?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, these are just neighbouring areas but later on, we joined forces and worked in collaboration with one another because if there were people who were safeguarding our area, they would also do so at Gangala and vice versa.

CHAIRPERSON: As at the 25th of December, you were not a member of Gangala Youth League?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I was not.  I belonged to Manyaseni.

CHAIRPERSON: As at the 25th of December, was there some kind of co-operation between Gangala Youth League and the structure in which you were a leader, Emayaseni?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, there was.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of collaboration do you have?  Did you have co-operation?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Prior to the 25th, there was co-operation because the people who committed these criminal acts, did not demarcate just where they attacked, but they would rob any house, be it in my area or in Gangala, such that when we heard of these acts, regardless of where they were committed, we would all go and investigate.  Even if I was away at work, I would be assured that Nhlanhleni would also keep an eye on my area.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you Mr Molohlanye.    You may proceed.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.  You said you questioned these people and what happened after questioning?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: After that questioning, after we had learnt that the purpose of their arrival was to attack, because we also found some firearms on them, we then held a separate discussion to discuss what to do with them.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What decision did you come up with?