Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR HUGO: Very well.  In the following paragraph you mention a Mr Jimmy Mbane and a Mr Dube who were also present, what was their function?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Their function was that when we leave to various houses, they would enter first to talk to a particular person who was supposed to be identified by a certain member of the ANC whom we called "Gipsman"(?), because he ...(indistinct), therefore we wanted him not to run away.

MR HUGO: I beg your pardon, before we ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was that person's name, that ANC person whom you caught?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't know his real name but we called him Gipsman.

CHAIRPERSON: ... plaster of paris man?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Gipsman.

MR HUGO: Just to return to Mr Mbane and Mr Dube's function, wasn't it generally their function to attempt to infiltrate the ANC cell here in Durban?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, in general that was their function, so that if they may identify a person who they trade with him outside, I would be able to arrest that particular person, because I would give evidence in court because they would not know how to give evidence in court if that person has been arrested.

MR HUGO: Very well.  Could you first tell the Honourable Committee how you travelled from Pretoria to Durban, in what vehicle?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was driving a minibus, A20 Nissan.

MR HUGO: And who was the driver of the vehicle?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And it was a white vehicle?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And you saw that Mr Mbane, among others, alleged that he drove with you in a blue kombi when you travelled from Pretoria to Durban.  What do you say of that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That's not correct.

MR LAX: May I just ask a question?

MR HUGO: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: I just want to ask a question if I may.
	In the lead-up to your evidence it's been explained that you have a problem with your memory.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Why are you so sure it was blue and not white, or white and not blue?  You must have driven hundreds of different kombis in hundreds of different operations.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It is correct, Chairperson, because we who used to drive minibuses, it will belong to me unless I was sick or off duty, then it will be driven by a particular person, or a Commanding Officer would instruct another person to drive that particular kombi.  But I would use that kombi at all times, because it has been allocated to me, because if they had problems, then I knew the problem I used to drive.

MR LAX: So you never drove a blue kombi, is that what you're saying?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.  If I remember well, the blue kombi was driven by Solomon Munyawu.  It belonged to Mr Almond Nofomela.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Radebe, you state in paragraph 6 that you had information that the Intelligence Unit was working on the ANC, which was operating in KwaMashu and Inanda.  Who gave you this information?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was informed by Martinus Ras.

MR HUGO: And furthermore you state that information was provided to you regarding Ntombi Kubheka, and what information did they provide you regarding her and her activities?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: They only told us that we should go with that ANC member, whom I don't know his real name, whom we used to call him Gipsman, that he'll take us to a certain woman in KwaMashu where ANC members used to arrive at her place.  They telephoned her, then that person is the one who gave them that particular information.  And then when that person was arrested I was not there.

MR HUGO: Very well.  Furthermore, you state in paragraph 8 that it was said to you that the storage of weapons and provision of accommodation were supplied by her, who gave you this information and how did you obtain it?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Please repeat your question.

MR HUGO: You will see in your statement that I have studied with you, that among others, information was obtained that she was storing weaponry with her and that she had family in Lusaka, who were working for the ANC.  The question is now, who provided this information to you, how did you come about this?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I received that information from Martinus Ras before we left the police station.

MR HUGO: Very well.  You state that you received an instruction to infiltrate this cell, and was this order also given to you by Martinus Ras?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Very well.  And how did you go about infiltrating the cell?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We left CR Swart Police Station and then we went to KwaMashu, in terms of the direction of that ANC member.  We arrived first to a particular house if I remember well ...(intervention)

MR HUGO: Let me stop you first.  The man in the plaster of paris that you have referred to, was this the contact person who was supposed to lead you to the Kubheka home?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And this was under the instruction of Mr Ras?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And who departed with you?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Jimmy Mbane and Dube and the Gipsman.

MR HUGO: And did you travel with a vehicle?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, we drove the white minibus, which I drove.

MR HUGO: And to which residential area did you travel?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We went to KwaMashu and I did not know the place.

MR HUGO: And you then arrived at the house, and can you tell the Committee what took place then.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: When we arrived at that particular house we did not stop near that house, we stopped one kilometre away from the house and then Const Dube and then Const Mbane and together with the Gipsman, those are the people who entered the house.
	After that they called me and they informed me that I was their driver - they informed the person that I was their driver.  Then I learnt that we would find people because they would come looking for a safe-house, then we told them that we have a safe-house ...(intervention)

MR HUGO: Before you arrive at that, you met Ms Kubheka, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Can you just tell the Honourable Committee how she looked, can you give them a description.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: She was a stout person.

MR HUGO: Sorry Mr Chairman, I didn't hear the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: The answer was
"She was a stout person"

MR HUGO: Very well.  And lengthwise, was she tall or short?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: She was medium, she wasn't tall neither short.

MR HUGO: And in terms of age, what did you estimate her age to be?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Between 40 and 45 years of age, at that time.

MR HUGO: Very well.  And a conversation ensued between the four of you, and what was said during this discussion?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I came after they finished talking.  As I've already stated that I remained in the car, a kilometre away from the house.  They informed that there are people who are looking for a safe-house, "Are you able to take them there?"  Then I said I have no problem.

MR HUGO: And then with regard to paragraph 15, where Mr Mbane and Mr Dube have stated that initially they had meetings with Ms Kubheka, which at face value, in terms of the statement, would appear to be prior to the time.  What is your opinion, were they busy with negotiations long before you arrived at the scene, or did everything take place simultaneously?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: They happened at that particular time because they were waiting for me.  That was my first time to go there when I drove them there.

MR HUGO: And then in your statement you mention a person who was on his or her way from Zambia to the Kubheka residence, what arrangements did you make regarding this?