Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-25

WITNESS:   The person I can identify with whom we searched for him for two days is the CID called Motogelwa, who has been stationed at Botshabelo, who has detained the deceased, and who has his statement.  In many instances when we asked about him he just said he just arrested him and then he handed him over to the police.  When you wanted to know the name of the police he would not tell you.  He is the only CID called Mr Motogelwa who would give us an information about what happened.  I am requesting the Truth Commission that if it is possible you would try to tell - try to investigate about the reasons behind my son's death and inform the family.  And then again if the Truth Commission can help us, that maybe if God may help -if God may take me from this world my son's child would be with me, because people are fighting against us and then we are losing our children, though we don't want to lose them.  This police who is called Mr Motogelwa, who has arrested my son, is the one which I am requesting that if the Truth Commission may help he may tell us all about what has happened to him.  If we hear things from other people he was taken to Bloemfontein already dead.  When - the child has been killed in Botshabelo and taken to Bloemfontein dead, but this Mr Motogelwa would - because people said they have seen a corpse of a boy in the van.  There are those who saw him dead in Botshabelo, and they took him to Bloemfontein whilst he is already dead.

CHAIRPERSON: /Mr Motogelwa

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motogelwa would know the people who have killed my son.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand now that, you know, you do need to know how your son died.  I will just have one more question that would help us in the investigation of your son's death.  What was the name of the doctor?  You remember you said you went to see your son with a doctor, who changed the direction and didn't go with you.  What was the name of that doctor?

WITNESS:   It seems it is written - this name is written on the statement.  I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have the name?  Would you have the name somewhere else?

WITNESS:   I think in the files we have.  This name is there.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  The lawyer, there was a lawyer who was involved in the inquest, who didn't come to inform you about the result of the inquest.  Do you know where that lawyer is now?  Where is he from?

WITNESS:   His name is Johannes Venter.  He was working at Cooper & Sons.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the names of the nurses?  Remember you went to hospital and the nurses told you that your son had killed himself in the toilet.  Do you know those nurses?

WITNESS:   No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

WITNESS:   They don't just tell you their names, these people, when you arrived to inquire about something.  They would ask you, "Why are you looking for names?"

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thanks very much for all you have said with us, and again it is a very sad story of losing a young soldier, a hero.  Probably because he was so brave and courageous he could be one of our leaders today, but we lost him.  I would like also to say that I wish you have courage to carry through all this, and that you are always there to support you.  We'll try to attend to your  requests with the information we have.  We'll give it to

CHAIRPERSON: the investigation unit and to try to get the whole picture of what happened.

WITNESS:   There are files which came from the Minister of Justice which showed the picture of the deceased.  It has two pictures, and the statement from the deceased.  The other picture is an old - is from an old person whom we don't know whose picture was that.  There are pictures from people who were from the staff of the Oranje Hospital who agree with the police about the statement.  I believe those people would be able to tell, because the testimony of all those people don't tally.  I have that file with me.

CHAIRPERSON: We would appreciate if you can give us copies of some of the information in that file.

WITNESS:   The Commission has that file.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: /CHAIRPERSON

CHAIRPERSON: People who want to make statements today should sit at the back, the last two rows at the back on the left-hand side, so that they can be identified by our statement-takers.  Okay, thank you.  I will now call upon our next witness, which is Philip Mbuthi Bakamela.  (Pause)  Thank you very much Mr and Mrs Bakamela.  Again we welcome you here today.  Before we start you would have to take an oath, and Mr Ilan Lax is going to help you do that.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Bakamela, is the person accompanying you your wife?

MR BAKAMELA: Yes.

MR LAX: Will she be testifying at all?

MR BAKAMELA: She will help where I forget.

MR LAX: Thank you.  What is your name, Mrs Bakamela, just for the record?

MRS BAKAMELA: Dora Bakamela.

PHILIP MBUTHI BAKAMELA AND DORA BAKAMELA: (Sworn, State)  (Through Interpreter)

MR LAX: Before we go into the circumstances that you're here to testify about you will have seen that it's customary for us to get a small picture of your family.  We can see that you are married.  Are you working, Mr Bakamela?

WITNESS:   For now I am not working.  I am receiving a disability grant.

MR LAX: And yourself, Mrs Bakamela?

WITNESS:   I am unemployed.

MR LAX: Thank you.  How many children do you have?

WITNESS:   We have no children now because of problems.

MR LAX: Now, can we turn to the circumstances that you're here to testify about.  Unfortunately your original statement we don't have it with us at the moment, so I am going to ask you some questions that may be a bit obvious to you.  When did this incident start?

WITNESS:   These incidents of beating started in 1969.  It started in 1969.

MR LAX: That's when you were a member of the police, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Initially I was beaten as a member of the SAP, but later I resigned.

MR LAX: When did you join the SAP?

WITNESS:   I joined in 1961.

MR LAX: And by 1969 what rank were you holding?

WITNESS:   I didn't last for a long time because of my personal beliefs and the harassment I received within the police.

MR LAX: You must listen carefully to the question.  In 1969 what rank did you hold?  Were you a constable, were you a sergeant, what were you?

WITNESS:   In 1969 I've already resigned, I was not a police.

MR LAX: Before you resigned what were you?

WITNESS:   I was just an ordinary policeman, which means a uniformed policeman.

MR LAX: So you were a uniformed constable?

WITNESS:   That's true.

MR LAX: Where were you based at that time?

WITNESS:   I was stationed at Batho Police Station.

MR LAX: And that's in Bloemfontein, isn't it?

WITNESS:   That's true.

MR LAX: Please tell us then how it was that you came to resign from the police?

WITNESS:   I had problems within the police until I resigned.

MR LAX: Can you explain the nature of those problems?