Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR BRINK: Why didn't you carry on with your attack against that particular taxi you mentioned?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Because the taxi turned away from the freeway into a residential area, a built-up area.

MR BRINK: Inhabited by Blacks?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Correct.

MR BRINK: And did you not abort that attack on the taxi because you were scared of getting caught?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: Well, you've told us that you wanted to retaliate against these various people including Black people.  Had you attacked the taxi and other people in the township had been hurt, wouldn't that have served your purpose?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, it was not meant to be an act of revenge.  It was not meant to be retaliation.  We wanted to do something to show the Government of the day and any organisation which was a threat to the freedom of the Boer people.  We wanted to oppose any such organisation and we wanted to weaken, soften the Government and to show them that the Orde Boerevolk and the Boer people would not tolerate such attacks.

MR BRINK: When you decided to abort the attack against the taxi, why did you then proceed to shoot the bus?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: When we stopped to drink cooldrinks and the bus passed us, we saw that this was the target.  This was the appropriate target to bring home the message which we were trying to put across.

MR BRINK: Well why didn't you try and bring that message across by shooting at the taxi?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Because the taxi drove away into a residential and built-up area, and if we had shot at the taxi many more people would have been injured.  The residents in the township area would have perhaps have been killed.

MR BRINK: Well wouldn't that from your point of view be more satisfactory? From your point of view have been more satisfactory there'd be greater impact?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, it was not our purpose to kill as many people as possible.  Our purpose was just to prove that these attacks were launched against Boer people, that we would retaliate, that we would hit back.  There was no point in just shooting people at random, then we could have done that in Richards Bay for instance and not go to Durban.

MR BRINK: But that's exactly what you did do.  You shot at people in the bus at random, intending to kill them, so how can you say that, MR SMUTS?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: We played according to the rules laid down by the PAC that with their attack that morning.  They went to the beach front and killed people and injured them.

MR BRINK: Yes, we know that, we know that. What I'm asking you is, why did you not attack the taxi even if it meant killing bystanders in the streets.  Would that not have served your purposes better than shooting at a bus at random?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Mr Chairman, in any war you want to continue to fight another day, you cannot just allow people to kill you, or catch you.  We wanted to continue the struggle.  We did not want to terminate it on that particular evening.

MR BRINK: Well if that's an answer to my question, I'll leave it there.  	Did you not say to Mr Botha when he ordered you to shoot at the bus, "There's no point in doing this, we've left the taxi alone, let's leave the bus alone?"

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Mr Chairman, I think you're misunderstanding me.  What I meant was that we wanted to continue with our struggle.  If we had followed the taxi and attacked the taxi in that built-up area, and the road was also quite busy, the chances would have been quite good to have been caught that particular evening.
	But we aborted that attack and went and had our cooldrinks and then started following the bus and we then attacked the bus.  And our purpose in so doing was to send a message to the Government and bodies and parties such as the ANC and the PAC who were threats to the Boer nation.

MR BRINK: Why did you not consider attacking the PAC offices in Durban? You could have found out where they were.

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Mr Chairman, time was a major factor, and I acted on Mr Botha's orders and instructions.  He told me, these are the orders, you must attack tonight.  I worked that entire day and I only became aware of the attack after six when I arrived at Mr Botha's home.

MR BRINK: When you left Richards Bay to drive to Durban, was it your intention to kill people?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Mr Chairman, in any war, when you attack, your aim is to kill people and I regarded myself as a soldier of the Orde Boerevolk and of the Boer people as a whole.

MR BRINK: My question was, when you left Richards Bay for Durban, did you have it in mind to kill people?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Mr Chairman, considering the type of weapon I was to use, I could have had no other intention than to kill.  If you shoot at people with an automatic rifle, you must hurt people.   It's obvious.

MR BRINK: To kill people whether they were members of the ANC or not - PAC or not? Just kill anyone with a black skin? Was that your intention?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, that was not my intention to kill anybody with a black skin.  My intention was to play according to the same rules established that morning by the PAC.  They also attacked people purely on the basis of their skin colour.

MR BRINK: So your intention was to kill someone whose skin colour was different from yours, regardless of whether they were PAC or not?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: The PAC acted against Whites.  I was a soldier of the Orde Boerevolk and I acted against Black people that night.

MR BRINK: Innocent Black people.  Innocent Black people going home after work,  fathers, mothers, didn't worry you?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: It wasn't easy to do it.  But the people who perpetrated that morning's attack, they didn't ask first whether the Whites they attacked belonged to any particular party or not.  They were also innocent White people.

MR BRINK: So what you did was a revenge killing, MR SMUTS?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No.

MR BRINK: What was it?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: It was as I said previously in my - that we wanted to show the government, the PAC and the ANC that we would fight back if there were attacks of this kind.  We tried to soften the Government, send them a message to yield to the demands for a Boerestaat where we, us Whites could govern ourselves and pursue our own ideals, culture and religion as we would allow for any other nation and people.

MR BRINK: You don't know how many members of the Orde Boerevolk there were at that time, do you?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That is correct.

MR BRINK: You don't know whether senior authority in Orde Boerevolk would have approved your action, do you?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, I reacted because I believed in Mr Botha, he was my commanding officer in the AWB and the oath form which I had signed, I believe that came from people higher up than Mr Botha.

MR BRINK: Just tell me, remind me, please.  When did you sign that oath?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: The evening of the 9th of October 1990.

MR BRINK: Before going to Durban?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: That is correct.

MR BRINK: What was the need to take the oath then? You could have accompanied Botha and Marais without having signed that oath.  Your intention was to kill people, you told us, so why sign the oath?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No-one could belong to the Orde Boerevolk without the sworn oath, and I believed what was set out in that oath.  I believed that that would promote the ideals for which I also stood and believed in.

MR BRINK: But you signed the oath after you had made a conscious decision to go to Durban to kill, is that not correct?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: No, I first signed the oath, and then we drove to Durban.

MR BRINK: Well let me put it this way.  Before you signed the oath you had discussions with Botha and Marais at Botha's house?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Correct.

MR BRINK: You discussed the fact that the PAC or alleged PAC members had killed Whites in Durban?

ADRIAAN SMUTS: Correct.

MR BRINK: And you discussed going to Durban to wreak some sort of havoc or vengeance on Black people, is that correct?