Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Those who oppressed us.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: The White people?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: If you look atthe people sitting in the two rows behind me, they are all people who were partof that congregation at St James that you attacked, do you not see many peoplethere who are not White people?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I can see them.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How would it assist you to attack them at St James?

<UNKNOWN>: s I'vesaid before, that I was taking orders from my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander.

<UNKNOWN>: nd if you are justshooting, if you are just shooting someone within many people, you just getshot to everyone. That was the policy of the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: I didn'tget that clearly, maybe it wasn't translated or interpreted, just say that againplease. The last part of your sentence, if you just shoot, what did you say?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: If you are in a place where there are

<UNKNOWN>: oers mostly, because

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was attacking the suburbs, which means the White areas, we exactly knew thatin suburbs the residents were White, so the churches that were there, were attendedby White people, because

<UNKNOWN>: lacks were not going to the White churches. So ifthere were a few

<UNKNOWN>: lack people in there and the majority was White, then therewas no reason for us not to attack.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Would you say it is

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: policy to attack a church where nearly half the people are not White?

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was attacking the

<UNKNOWN>: oers.

<UNKNOWN>: nd if nearlyhalf of the people who were there in the church, were not

<UNKNOWN>: oers, what then?

<UNKNOWN>: s far as I know, the methods of the High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand, they do recognisancewhereby they would have decided whether the target must be attacked by

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .It was obvious by the time we were going to St James, they knew that there wereonly Whites there or mostly Whites.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It is interestingthat you say that, because the people from St James will say that they think,they read that they noticed the church being reconnoitred prior to the attacktaking place. So they agree with you that it is probably so that the attackwas planned and whoever the planner was, knew what type of people would be inthe church.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It is obvious the one who was planning the attack,was our

<UNKNOWN>: ommander and he knew that there were only Whites there.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well, clearly he didn't know that, because there were not only Whites there.

<UNKNOWN>: nd if that is the case, do you still say that it is in accordance with

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: policy to have attacked that church?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It is only him who cananswer that, Sichomiso. I for one, I knew that reconnaissance was being doneby the

<UNKNOWN>: ommanders. We were only just taking orders from our

<UNKNOWN>: ommander.

JUDGEWILSON: When you arrived at the church, you parked right outside the frontof it, is that so?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, sir.

JUDGE WILSON: I read inthe newspaper yesterday evening I think, that there were an estimated 900 peoplein the church. If this was so, this would have probably meant there were a lotof cars parked outside that church. Did you notice that?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, I have noticed that.

JUDGE WILSON: That there were a lot of cars?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, sir.

JUDGE WILSON: So it would seem that there wouldbe lots of people there apart from those who lived in the immediate vicinity?People who had gone there by car?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What about the foreign people that were in thechurch, the people from Russia who were in the church, how would it assist for

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: to attack them?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I didn't know about that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: The person, the people from St James will say that they had for almost two years,when Russian people coming to that church every weekend and that whoever therefore,did the reconnaissance would have known that.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: What was Isupposed to do then?

CHAIRPERSON: He has already told you he was merely thedriver and he did (indistinct), as to whether they were Russians or not wouldhardly be something within his knowledge.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr Mlambisa,do you still say - or how many people was it that went into the church, onlytwo?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, sir.

<UNKNOWN>: re you sure of that?

<UNKNOWN>: s I've said, I am definitely sure.

<UNKNOWN>: ecauseMr Smith, Mr Lorenzo Smith will say that he thinks he saw three people in thechurch.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: He does not know the truth.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: There was a car that came and stopped in front of you while you were standingin the parking lot, is that so?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd the person who was in the car with you, threw a petrol bomb at that carand you shot at that car. Why was that, why did you do that?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I didn't throw a petrol bomb, I just shot at it because it was parking in frontof us, so we didn't have a way to go out.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That petrol bomband that bullet could have killed the person in that car, isn't it so?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Just because that person was a White, I just wanted to hit thatperson, but unfortunately it didn't.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: So you didn't reallycare who was killed in the course of this attack, you were prepared to killanyone who got in your way?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, it is true.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You also didn't know for a fact that the person in that car was a White person,did you?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It was clear that it was a White person.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How was it clear, it was dark wasn't it?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: There was a light,there was a bright light in St James, so I noticed that the person was White.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Have you ever been to church Mr Mlambisa?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you still go to church?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes,I am still going to church.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you not think it was wrongto attack people in a church where they are praying?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I hadnothing to do then, because I was just taking orders from my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: an you explain why the P

<UNKNOWN>: has condemned your attack on thechurch as being wrong, why they did so at that time?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I amsorry, I cannot explain that, I am also confused.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Whatare you confused about?

<UNKNOWN>: bout the condemning of the missionthat took place in St James.

<UNKNOWN>: nd why was it, or do youknow why it was that

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: themselves denied that they had any responsibilityfor the attack?

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: never denied that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Perhaps I can read something to you from a report in the

<UNKNOWN>: rgus on the 26th ofJuly 1993 where it was reported ...

ADV DE JAGER: Page?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It is page 36 of the bundle, I beg your pardon, of the second bundle that washanded up by the victims yesterday.

ADV DE JAGER: thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It is a report in the

<UNKNOWN>: rgus that says

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: denies involvement in massacre. The

<UNKNOWN>: zanian People's Liberation

<UNKNOWN>: rmy, the military wing of the Pan

<UNKNOWN>: fricanist

<UNKNOWN>: ongresssaid the massacre at St James church was not our sort of operation.

<UNKNOWN>: an youexplain why they would say it is not their sort of operation?

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: has its own

<UNKNOWN>: ommanders.

<UNKNOWN>: an you tell me who said that?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It was said from Dar Es Salaam.

JUDGE WILSON: Shouldn't you read thatnext paragraph as well.

<UNKNOWN>: ommenting from Dar Es Salaam today an

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: spokesmansaid the movement was still waiting for information from its forces on the ground,and that they would issue a full statement later?