Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

BAREND STRIJDOM: I knew he was a leader in this organisation with Mr Binneman, according to my information.

MR STEENKAMP: You say he was also a member or a leader of The Order of Death?  The question I want to ask is this, how would you regard Mr Lottering's evidence where he said that the purpose was to not only to eliminate ANC leaders and National Party leaders, was that also the purpose and objective of the AWB?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I beg your pardon, could you repeat the question?

MR STEENKAMP: I'll repeat it.  Was it the purpose, the political objective of the AWB to kill National Party leaders and ANC leaders at that stage?  Are you aware of any such policies as Mr Lottering testified today?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I'll put it to you like this, I will accept from the AWB and perhaps we can even speak about it in broader terms, in a national context we had a special patriotic feeling which was closely interwoven, politics, religion was all closely interwoven and from this very specific situation it happens that one identifies a lot of enemies, in other words people who weren't with us were against us, that was the basic point of view.  So seen from that perspective it's no surprise to me that that could have been the non-official policy of the movement such as the AWB.

MR STEENKAMP: So what you're trying to say, I think, is that Mr Makgalamele, a taxi driver, was also seen as an enemy of the Volk?

BAREND STRIJDOM: That's correct.

MR STEENKAMP: And according to AWB policy he had to be killed, that was what it amounted to in brief?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Yes.

MS GCABASHE: Chair, if I can just, just a quick follow-up on that?  Mr Makgalamele was seen as an enemy of the Volk you say, what you've just said, is that what you said?

BAREND STRIJDOM: ...[inaudible]

MS GCABASHE: In that context.  So any black person was therefore perceived as an enemy of the Volk because he was a nobody?

BAREND STRIJDOM: As I've said earlier, everybody who did not support our ideals was seen as enemies of the Volk, of the people.  In the AWB what was important was promoting the cause of the Boerevolk and I don't think it was purely on a racial basis although that is also the case.

MS GCABASHE: If that is so can you distinguish for me a racially supremacist motivation in a killing like this as opposed to a political motivation in a killing such as this?  Just from your own context and background.

BAREND STRIJDOM: From the way his name and surname is pronounced it's clear to me that this person is not a Boer and cannot be one and on that basis I think one should actually look at the situation.

MS GCABASHE: Sorry, I'm just asking you to distinguish between racism and a political act, you known in the context of what we're talking about today, the killing of Makgalamele.  How would you distinguish that just from your own learnings and teachings because you say you were in the same organisation, you learned the same things, you know Mr Lottering, just to help me understand the difference between the two from your point of view.

BAREND STRIJDOM: One should also look at the situation in view of the fact that we grew up in South Africa during years when there was a great difference between Black and White, we went to White schools and what also happened was that we also didn't mix with English children at school.  The Boer people were separate in their schools and the English speakers were separate in their schools and it was often used by party political leaders in those days that they used the racial basis.

MS GCABASHE: ...[inaudible] actually not related to racism at all.  In your evidence you said that De Beer and applicant had contact, to your knowledge they had contact.  How did you know this?

BAREND STRIJDOM: People who came to visit me like Mr de Beer, they came to visit me in prison and I can also go and check the visitors book in prison to prove that.

MS GCABASHE: ...[inaudible] heard about this, you didn't really observe anything, you weren't there when they had meetings?  It's all hearsay?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I'm speaking specifically of this situation - before the time we talked about general matters regarding the AWB and the struggle of our Volk.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moloi, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman, briefly.
	Mr Strijdom, you don't know much about Die Order van die Dood, is that correct?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Yes, what I know about The Order of Death is what was conveyed to me while I was in prison.

MR MOLOI: ...[inaudible] about it.  You say you and Mr Lottering whilst members of the AWB attended meetings together. Is that correct?

BAREND STRIJDOM: That's correct.

MR MOLOI: At these meetings you discussed what you say is the policy of the AWB namely to apply violence in order to achieve it's objectives?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I don't think that that was the only policy of the AWB but that was part of their policy.

MR MOLOI: ...[inaudible] violence was the method to be used in order to achieve it's objectives?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I think that the leader of the AWB, Mr Eugene Terre'blanche has been placed on record a number of times where he has said during public platforms.

MR MOLOI: When Mr Lottering broke away from the AWB according to his evidence, he then joined this other organisation "Order van die Dood"?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Yes.

MR MOLOI: Will you agree with me then that Order van die Dood as the name implies is even more radical than what the AWB preached as their policy?  It's not only violence here it's also murder, killing.

BAREND STRIJDOM: I think it depends upon how one would view the situation.  There are a great deal of splinter groups which emanated from the AWB and this was for various reasons but also as a result of another reason within the AWB where people received specific instructions within the AWB as what happened with The Order of Death later.

MR MOLOI: ...[inaudible] qualify anybody associating himself or herself with an organisation that preaches death to be a soft person, can you?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I think that one must also consider the broader South African context and some of the National Party's government officials and ex-military chiefs and cabinet ministers within the current government on the right side, I should think that one could say that.

MR MOLOI: ...[inaudible] the soft person as you want to portray Mr Lottering, to be a person that will associate himself with violence, attend meetings where violence and the killings are talked about and being an integral part of that body and execute the killings?  The softness?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I think that all the things that we heard within the AWB, all the bomb explosions which occurred during that time period which were allegedly planted by the ANC or related organisations led to tempers flaring and people had to start doing something and I think that this quest and desire for freedom made a gentle person like Corrie Lottering commit such acts.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions you would like to ask the witness?
ADV. BOSMAN: Mr Strijdom, you have mentioned the military wings specifically you used the word military, that is the military wing Aquillo, how do you understand the word military?

BAREND STRIJDOM: That at least depending upon whether it's peace time or war time, that among our ranks a war situation was spoken of and at that point, national service was in practice in South Africa which was of application to all White men of South Africa.
ADV. BOSMAN: Perhaps I could shorten it, do you mean military in terms of the soldiers wing of the AWB?