Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, before I ask Mr Webster, are there any other few remaining questions you wish to adduce from your witness?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I had a nagging feeling yesterday afternoon that there was something and there was.  May I - just two matters?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, you're still under your former oath which you took yesterday to speak the truth and you are still bound in conscience to speak the truth, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, just reverting to the scene of the shooting, what I neglected to clarify with you yesterday is as we understand it, Lembede drove your kombi after you had shot from the kombi into this car.  He drove it in front of that car, of the fugitive car, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And then he braked, he stopped the kombi and then there was a collision by the fugitive's car with your kombi from the rear?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Now, what happened to the vehicles after this collision?  Can you just explain that to the Committee please?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, after that collision at the back, the force of the collision pushed our kombi forward, all slowly, pushed the kombi forward, whereupon
Lembede and I alighted the kombi.

MR VISSER: Yes, now just before you get to that, when the two vehicles, the kombi and the fugitive car came to a standstill, were they up close to each other, or was there a gap left?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, when the action was finished, the vehicles smacked into each other, there was no gap.

MR VISSER: Alright.  So they got to the standstill together?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Together.  Yes, correct.

MR VISSER: You and Lembede then got out of the kombi, I take it on the left-hand side.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, I came out the sliding door.

MR VISSER: And he came out the front passenger door?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Right.  Did you fire at that car after you got out of the car?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I did, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: With your service pistol?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And then as you explained to the Committee, suddenly there was firing coming from the North.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman, as I got out of the vehicle and ran towards the suspect vehicle, the Reaction Unit Personnel were aligHting their vehicles and they were also coming in towards the suspects vehicle and they commenced firing at it.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Can you tell the Committee whether you can distinguish the reports of firearms to some degree?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: What do you say were the Reaction Unit firing with from what you heard there that evening?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I distinctly heard the sounds of R1.

MR VISSER: R1 assault rifles?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: R1 assault rifles, 762 and there was automatic 9mm fire as well, presumably Uzzi's or HMCs.

MR VISSER: Yes and was there a lot of it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: There were volleys of fire, there was a lot of gunfire, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And that caused you and Lembede to take flight up the embankment to save yourselves?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Because you were in the line of fire, being on the southern side, if that was the southern side of - I'm not sure of the points of the compass, but we know what we're talking about.  You were in front of the fugitive's car?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, lastly, it was suggested to some of the witnesses, I don't remember whom, but certainly to Botha, I'm not sure on what evidence it was suggested, but it was suggested that you might have and if I say you, I mean the royal you, might have decided beforehand that you were going to kill these terrorists at whatever costs.  Was such a decision taken beforehand?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, no decision was taken.  I was not informed of such a decision.

MR VISSER: What weapons did you have available while you were chasing this car with the kombi?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I had my service R1 rifle.

MR VISSER: Did you have it that evening?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I had it with me.

MR VISSER: If you knew that you were going to ambush and kill four terrorists, what would you have used as a weapon to do that with?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I would have taken my R1 rifle.

MR VISSER: Which you didn't?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I left it in Col Taylor's vehicle.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: When you talked about firing coming from the north, that's the first time this direction is mentioned.  All the vehicles were in fact facing south at that stage, isn't it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So then, the firing that may have come from the members of the Reaction Unit, they were in motor vehicles and where were these motor vehicles at the stage that they were firing?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, when I alighted from the kombi, the vehicles, the Reaction vehicles, I seem to recall two of them, they had stopped in the road behind, possibly 30,40 metres.  Parties alighted from both vehicles.  That would now be on the left-hand side of the suspects' vehicle.

MR VISSER: Just make that clear.  When you say on the left-hand side, do you mean on the left-hand side of the suspects' vehicle with its nose as a reference point or with yourself and the suspects' car on the left-hand side as a reference point?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, with the nose of the suspects' vehicle, the Reaction Unit came from the back from the sort of left corner and from the back on the right.

MR VISSER: So they alighted from both of the vehicles and what did they do after they alighted from those vehicles?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They ran towards where we were, they ran towards both vehicles.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: When you say ran towards both vehicles, what vehicles are you talking about, the suspects' vehicle and?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And the kombi, they had collided.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were together now.  Almost together.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, at this point in time I was between them, or myself and Lembede were directly in line of fire and I grabbed Lembede by the arm.  I could see what was going to happen, Sir and I and Lembede then ran up the embankment, right up the top onto the outer ring road, well out of the firing line now.

CHAIRPERSON: This embankment you talk about, would that be on the left-hand side of the road facing south?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir the right-hand side of the road facing south.

MR LAX: So did you run right across to the other side of the highway?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, no Mr Chairman, I can explain it like this.  The off ramp went down.  We were on the highway.

MR LAX: Okay.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Then they took the off ramp that went down.  The shooting took place at the bottom and I then ran up to the top.  Lembede and I sat at the top.

MR LAX: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Webster.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Wasserman, you were born in Rhodesia?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was born in Zambia.

MR WEBSTER: Was it in Zambia?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: But at some stage you went to Rhodesia?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: And you regarded Rhodesia as your home?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: You were in the Armed Forces of Rhodesia?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct.