Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ras had just concluded his evidence in chief, is there anything further Mr Jansen that Mr Ras wishes to say?

MR JANSEN: No Mr Chairman, nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Ras, you have heard Mr De Kock's evidence regarding the instruction which he gave you to shoot the woman who fell out of the back of the vehicle, did you hear that, is that correct?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And he admits that he gave you the instruction, but he denies that he used the wording that you say that he used.  Is it possible that you may have made an error regarding that, you may not be recalling it correctly?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, that is difficult, that is how I remember it, that is how I wrote it down.  I must concede that those were not the usual words that I heard Mr De Kock use under any other circumstances.  Under these circumstances, from my recollection of what was said, I must concede that it is possible that somebody else may have used the specific word, but I recalled that he said it to me and that is why I gave the version according to that.

MR HATTINGH: In your statement you said if I recall correctly that this woman had bullet wounds in the chest and I think in the back as well, is that correct?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairperson, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hattingh.  Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, sorry my microphone doesn't seem to be going off.  Mr Lamey has indicated that he doesn't have any questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Thank you Mr Chair.   Mr Ras, let's just deal with some general matters first before we go to the specific incident.   You were appointed a policeman to among other things, uphold the law and investigate crime?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: But at some stage of your career and the careers of the people with whom you were associated, you actually became a criminal?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Mr Chairperson, in today's perspective yes, but in the perspective of the past I received recommendations for good work which directly involved the elimination and arrest of ANC members as well as PAC members who were infiltrating the country, who entered the country to commit acts of terrorism.

MR MOERANE: Even according to the law that existed at the time, you were a criminal, you committed murders, not so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, I will repeat, it was murder, however it was in the interest of the country.

MR MOERANE: Well, I didn't ask you that, can you please confine yourself at the moment, to my question.   You broke the law, you committed murder?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct Chairperson.  If we have to approach it like that, that some of us did not commit criminal acts or crimes in order to keep the country in control, if we did not do that, this process which is taking place here today, would not be necessary because this process is there in order to examine the fairness of the criminal acts of that time.

MR MOERANE: You corrupted the criminal justice system, not so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Firstly by making deliberately false statements, sworn statements?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Secondly by telling lies to the Prosecutor in particular, the Prosecutor and Prosecutors who led evidence at the Piet Retief inquest, the first one?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: You also committed perjury by giving false evidence at that inquest?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: In fact that was large scale perjury because it involved all of you, members of the Police Force who were involved in that incident and gave evidence?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: You also covered up the incident?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: In other words you created a situation where the criminal justice system itself, became corrupted?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You say this was in the interest of the State that you served?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: There were other policemen in the Force who did not do those things, not so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: We were a counter-terrorism group which was established and I think that we were unique as a group which executed operations from the highest level of authority.  I don't think that we can be compared to the regular policeman in the Force.

MR MOERANE: Now you are specifically referring to C1?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but you acted in concert and collusion with the Security Branch in the Eastern Transvaal, Piet Retief in particular, generally Ermelo, not so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And all of you were involved in this unlawful enterprise?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: But I still say to you that there were other policemen who did not commit those acts, not so?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes, there are many policemen who did not do such things.

MR MOERANE: By your former reply are you suggesting to this Honourable Committee that it was expected of members of C1 that they were going to commit crimes in defence of South Africa?  Was that the culture and was that the expectation?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes, it was part of Vlakplaas that we executed operations which were basically beyond the law.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but that included committing extra-territorial crimes, crimes in Swaziland for instance?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And particularly committing murder in those countries, particularly Swaziland?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes, that is correct.  Swaziland, Lesotho and Botswana.

MR MOERANE: Yes, was it necessary for your purposes to kill women?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, I gave evidence at the beginning of the month as well regarding an incident in Botswana where a woman was also killed and it was sometimes also necessary to shoot women.

MR MOERANE: Well, take an example which features in this inquest, was it necessary to kill that woman who had been shot?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, the information that we received indicated that these would be armed persons who were entering the country.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Moerane is putting to you Mr Ras, was it necessary to have killed that woman who you were ordered to kill, the one who was laying next to the vehicle, taking into consideration the fact that she was not a threat at that time, she had been incapacitated, is that what you are asking, Mr Moerane, that particular incident, was that killing necessary?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Chairperson, we went out to kill everybody and I believe that at that stage,  the person was already if one examines the post mortem reports, she had been wounded or injured to such an extent that she should have been dead already and out of reaction, I simply fired another shot which killed the person.

MR MALAN: But according to your evidence, Mr Ras, whether or not she was shot or wounded, she would have been shot dead ultimately?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: My question to you was, was it necessary to kill her?

MARTINHUS DAVID RAS: Yes Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Why?