Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

CHAIRPERSON: This is a continuation of the application of Antonie Jagga and three others and we are having Mr Thulo testifying and he's presently under cross-examination.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Koopedi when we adjourned yesterday afternoon, was busy cross-examining you.  We got to a stage where he was asking you what happened at Roma Police Station.  Do you recall that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Koopedi, you may proceed.

MR KOOPEDI: (cont)
	Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Thulo, can you recall how soon after Betty Boom and her group did you go for Mbulelo Ngono?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, if I recall well, it might be two days.

MR KOOPEDI: Now at the police station, the Roma Police Station, when you left with Mbulelo, was he still tied?  Were his hands still tied up?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And when you crossed the border, were his hands still tied up?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Did he make any signs of protest when you were crossing the border, or did he just keep quiet?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, he was just quiet.

MR KOOPEDI: There is an allegation in the bundle of documents that at some stage Mbulelo was made to lie down on the floor of the kombi, can you comment on that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: In your presence, from the time you were inside the flat where he was arrested, was he assaulted or were any of the occupants of that flat assaulted or harassed in your presence?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: There is a further allegation in the bundle of documents, that you took Mbulelo to this place where he stays and that the two ladies, Nandipa and Lindiwe were left at this flat, can you comment on that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, it's not that way as you put it.

MR KOOPEDI: The impression I got yesterday when you testified is that you didn't know much or you didn't know anything really about Betty Boom, and you were only told to go and accompany your colleagues on the day she was to be fetched.  Now what I want to know is, what was said to you, were you told that we are - come and drive this vehicle or accompany your colleagues to go and fetch Betty, or to go and abduct Betty?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: What I said is that I was told to accompany my colleagues and drive the kombi to go and fetch Betty there.

MR KOOPEDI: Now in as far as you are concerned, Betty was fetched, she came in voluntarily into the car, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And even crossed the border into South Africa voluntarily, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you agree with me that Betty was not abducted?  That is, in your own version she wasn't abducted, she came voluntarily?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: What I know Chairperson, is that we went to fetch Betty ...(intervention)

MR LAX: No, the question to you was - you must answer this question please, was there in any way any involuntary conduct on her part?  That's the gist of the question.  You were there, you observed - yes or no?  It's a straightforward question.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, she came voluntarily.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you also said that you guarded at the farm, at the times that you were guarding her, did you get any indication that she does not want to be at the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you tell me, what amnesty - what do you want amnesty for, what wrong have you done to Betty, in particular?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, what I did to Betty was to guard her while she was still at the farm, because she was unable to go wherever she wanted to.  And the other thing that I think I did was when we went to fetch her from Lesotho into the Republic.

MR KOOPEDI: But you agree that on these two incidents you're referring to, she was a co-operating party, she came into the car voluntarily, crossed the border with you voluntarily and stayed at the farm voluntarily, she never protested to you?  Do you agree?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, I do Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  At this farm, did you sleep at the farm on some days or did you just go there during the day?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I never slept at that farm.

MR KOOPEDI: Now all the guarding that you did, would it have been during the day?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And do you know if any of your three colleagues stayed or slept at this farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Well Chairperson, I did not have any knowledge of that.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  On Nomasonto, were you told why was Nomasonto to be fetched?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was not given the reason why she was to be fetched?

MR KOOPEDI: Did you ask for it?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: In your evidence you said that Jantjie said to Nomasonto that you were sent by Betty, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And do you recall the words used, the exact words?  You were sent by Betty to do what?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: If I recall well, Chairperson, he said we were sent by Betty to go and fetch Nomasonto to take her to Ladybrand.

MR KOOPEDI: Did Nomasonto ask you why was she being taken to Ladybrand?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Did she ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He says he doesn't remember, not "no".
	What did say to the question that has been asked?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Can you please repeat the question again, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I agree with you, I heard the applicant saying in Sotho, that he does not remember, not "that I do not know".
	Did Betty did not ask: "For how long are you taking me?  Why are you taking me"?  I'm sorry, not Betty, but Nomasonto.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: In your evidence you said when you found her she was hanging clothes or washing on the line, what happened to that washing?  Did she take it off the line, did she leave it there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not recall, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now other than taking the clothes, the clothes for the kids, did she take anything else with her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: She only took the kids clothes?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson, because that's what she asked, she asked us to let her take the child's clothes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you then get to the farm with her, did you ever engage her in any conversation?  That is Nomasonto.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson, I did not speak to her.

MR KOOPEDI: That is, at the farm while you were guarding her you never spoke to her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not remember talking to her, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: For how long did you guard her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It could be one day, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now do you know when was she separated from her child?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not recall, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now Tax Sejanamane, were you told why were you supposed to go and fetch him?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I was not given a reason why.

MR KOOPEDI: Now where exactly did you find Tax?  Was he inside the house, was he outside the house, where did you find him?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We found Tax in a place called Luatamai, in a taxi rank.  Yes at a taxi rank, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: And you said in your evidence that he wanted to run away but then changed his mind when Betty's name was mentioned.  Did you tell him why Betty sent you to him and why was he supposed to be taken into South Africa?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: When I stopped the car, Tax seemed to be scared, but after Mr Jantjie informed him that we were sent by Betty, Tax showed signs of being settled, then he entered the car.