Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I was showing that the deceased was one of the people who were in the list of the people who were expected to be evicted, who were falling under the ambit of witchcraft.  By then, when we were holding some meetings, when we said there were some obstacle which we wanted to remove, which were disturbing us, we took witchcraft as some of the things which we want to remove before us, as we were expecting to have freedom.
	Then we reached an extent where witchcraft was taken in this way. It was one of the obstacles which was oppressing us. It's one of the things which were hurting us.  It's then that we found it ...(indistinct) that now that we see we are free, then we will remove it.  It's then that we found that the deceased was on the list of the witches. 
	Another measure problem is that after he was listed, he was the person who was fighting very hard with the meetings which were held and he was against the singing of the freedom songs and that and everything which was done under, during those days.  He was a person who was fighting with that in all ways possible.

CHAIRPERSON: How was - let me ask you, did you mean to say that witchcraft was politically oppressive?  When you said that the witchcraft was an oppressive aspect in your lives.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Witches were people who were performing very unusual things.  We realised that in those days when things were being exposed, especially to the chiefs, they were the ones who were quite aware of their ill-doings.  They will not like that to be exposed as that was the requirement from the people in the village.

CHAIRPERSON: Look those unusual things, I think, as  I understand the evidence so far, amounted to criminal activities on the part of the witches or wizards.  Do you understand?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: All I'm asking very simply, the reasons for wanting to get rid of these witches or people you thought were witches, how would that improve the political life of the inhabitants?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well we actually wanted to evict these people from our village because this would lead eventually to the fact that those who were ruling were in the old order and as such the central government would then be able to realise that we were not pleased with the way the old order was behaving.  So that we will then take the then government back to Pretoria or to the central government, I mean to say.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the wizards and witches have to do with that?  How did they stop that, if at all?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: You mean the evicting of witches?

CHAIRPERSON: No.  You say you're unhappy with that order, political order, you needed to see to it that the order is transformed so that the country goes back to the central government of South Africa, correct?  That's how I understand your reasoning.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Were the witches or the wizards, or the activities a hurdle in that aim to get Venda back to the central government of South Africa?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well the witches, the alleged witches had connections with the people who were involved in ritual murders, because the way it used to happen is that it was very difficult to present this to the leaders of the government of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Now killing a witch, how would that help getting back to central government?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: The main aim was not to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't tell me that the aim wasn't to kill Edward, you pleaded guilty - not pleased guilty, you say you were guilty of killing him.  We're trying to find out why.  You've come to the point where you say that you were part of the people who needed to get, or wanted to get Venda back to the central government of South Africa.  All I'm asking you, how by killing a person you thought was a wizard or witch, how would that killing assist or contribute or enhance the moving back to Pretoria?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: With regard to the killing of the witch and how it contributed to the eventual transformation of the government to the central government, it does indicate that with regard to the hit list people, we could not indicate that they were going to be killed, we merely said they were to be evicted.  Those who agreed with the eviction went, but we did not agree on the killing specifically as to make that we had to achieve our aim.  Mainly we wanted them to be evicted.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we're playing with words now, we've established that.  How did the eviction of those wizards or witches, how was their eviction intended to assist the country politically in getting back to the central government?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Will you repeat again?  Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Please explain to us how the evictions of wizards and witches were going to assist in Venda going back to Pretoria?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well those people who were responsible in giving them accommodation were traditional leaders and they had a confrontation with us.  Therefore, it indicated that there was not a good political situation and people realised that there were some big problems in the country.

ADV DE JAGER: But your chief didn't harbour them, he didn't give them accommodation, he evicted them, he gave them a trek pass.  So he wasn't approving of what this man was doing, so how could the eviction of the witch or the suspected witch from one district in Venda to another district in Venda, bring back Venda to Pretoria, to the central government?

INTERPRETER: Could you repeat the question, he doesn't seem to be following.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: It was the main aim of us to make the country ungovernable.

ADV DE JAGER: How would the eviction of a witch help to make the country ungovernable?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: It will be mainly through the reasoning behind of the people not being satisfied with the fact that when these people are evicted they had to be put on other districts.

CHAIRPERSON: If they're gone, how would that help to get back to Pretoria?  Except there will be less people to go and march to Pretoria.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well it will be helpful inasfar as  ...(indistinct) serious in South Africa, or the country of South Africa.  There was this political freedom, so that the then government was not really acceptable.  That is why even in the independent homelands the government of the day was not acceptable and the activities thereof.  It will lead to the aim that the people had in mind, so that the government of the day was not the real government that was expected of the people, I mean from the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I must take it from a different angle, I don't know.  You've got the witches here and the wizards.  The majority of the people want to go back to Pretoria.  What did the wizards and witches and these
people who were involved in the ritual murders, what did they do, or how did they contribute to keeping you people from going back to Pretoria, or preventing you from going back to Pretoria?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: You mean what contributions?

CHAIRPERSON: What did they do to prevent the people from going back to Pretoria and getting their freedom?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Actually what we were fighting for was that as people who were not doing things which were acceptable by the people, that is why we decided that it will be a good tool of linking the political events when the political freedom was being sought, so that it will lead to the main aim and achievement thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know how else to ask this.  Why couldn't you go back to Pretoria while the witches were in the area?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Witches were doing various activities which were not acceptable in the communities.

CHAIRPERSON: Well maybe it wasn't acceptable, but how did they prevent you going back to Pretoria, which was your political aim?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I cannot follow the question.  Will you repeat the question please.