Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

ERNEST RAMATALA: This Shakes, he was involved in a shooting somewhere, somebody died here in Durban ...[indistinct] or something like that.  Now he was in detention, something like that or in prison.

ADV PRIOR: But was he involved with any political, with any political organisation or not, to your knowledge?

ERNEST RAMATALA: He's a former member of ANC.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I just don't follow quite clearly, you say he was taken out of prison, for what purpose?

ERNEST RAMATALA: To rejoin the group again.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know whether he knew Mr Bhila or not?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, no he was not sure of Mr Bhila.

ADV PRIOR: Had Mr Malaleka, the Shakes Malaleka, had he been briefed on the purpose of the visit to Mr Bhila or not?

ERNEST RAMATALA: He was with us when we were briefed by our seniors.

ADV PRIOR: Was he prepared to go along with you to Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly, exactly.

ADV PRIOR: Alright, so Mr Bhila then joins you in the vehicle, is that correct?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And where did you then go?

ERNEST RAMATALA: According to the plan we were supposed to go out of Durban.

ADV PRIOR: Well what - just tell us a bit more detail, what was your instruction and who gave you the instruction where you were to drive?

ERNEST RAMATALA: They said that we must try to get out of Durban, Mr Letsatse and Mhieza now, who was giving us that instruction.

ADV PRIOR: And was that before you got to Lamontville?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

ADV PRIOR: Okay so he's in the vehicle, what then happened?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Now we drove, we're trying to move but I think a few metres, the two Combis were there, intercepting us.

ADV PRIOR: Was that still in Lamontville?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Outside Kentucky, little bit outside there.

ADV PRIOR: Were you still near the Kentucky when the Combi stopped?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No it was something like now next to the chemist there.

ADV PRIOR: So you started your vehicle, you moved off a short distance as I understand it and the two Combis were there?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Tell us what happened then?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The instruction was we are going to be getting some ...[indistinct] all of us, so that Mr Bhila he must be confused.

ADV PRIOR: Just tell us what happened?

ERNEST RAMATALA: They cross, they come in front of me and stop me, now Mike Mhieza, he was the one now that came that "you are driving shit, you are driving shit"  Now started beating me now, he start to open the door, beating Mr Bhila, the other one now start to beat me.  We went to the Combi so when I was in the Combi they say no, come, come, come, go and drive the car.

ADV PRIOR: When you say someone beat you, do you know who slapped you?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No I don't really recall who did ...[indistinct]

ADV PRIOR: And then Mr Bhila you say was taken into the Combi?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Into the Combi.

ADV PRIOR: And you were told to get into your vehicle?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

ADV PRIOR: Can you say who was in the vehicle in which Mr Bhila was placed, who were the members that were there, can you remember?

ERNEST RAMATALA: There were two Combis, all the members were there but I never saw the white members during that vicinity but black members, all of them were there.

ADV PRIOR: Now which black members are you referring to?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I'm referring of Letsatse, Gadebe, Mike Lembedi was there, Spyker was there, Pekkie was there, Luluke other one was there and Tulo was there.  I see all of them.

ADV PRIOR: You came down to Durban with a number of policemen from Vlakplaas?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Definitely.

ADV PRIOR: And askaris I understand?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

ADV PRIOR: Are you referring to that group?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I'm referring to that group.

ADV PRIOR: In addition to that group were there any members from the Durban office?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes it was Mhieza and Mike Lembedi.

ADV PRIOR: Can you remember whether Bhila, Mr Bhila said anything when he was taken into the Combi?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, no nothing.

ADV PRIOR: And then from that point in Lamontville where you were intercepted, what happened, where did you go?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Three of us, now we go back to the car, we go straight to C.R. Swart.

ADV PRIOR: And what happened at C.R. Swart?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Ten minutes or fifteen minutes time, Letsatse arrived and took the car's keys and took off the number plate of the vehicle.

ADV PRIOR: Yes?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That was the end.

ADV PRIOR: Well did you ask him anything about what happened to Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No nothing.

ADV PRIOR: Did you ever see Mr Bhila again?

ERNEST RAMATALA: It was the first time, I never seen him again.

ADV PRIOR: Did you never see him again?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No I never saw him again.

ADV PRIOR: Did you ever make enquiries as to what possibly had happened to him after that incident?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Nothing.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know that he was to be killed?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.

ADV PRIOR: Now is it correct that you were approached in July of '96 by Captain Holmes of the D'Oliveira Special Investigating Unit?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And is it correct that you made a statement to Mr Holmes?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And it was recorded in Afrikaans, is that correct?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

ADV PRIOR: And you signed - we have a copy, is it correct is it your signature that appears?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes that's my signature.

ADV PRIOR: And you told Mr Holmes what you could remember of the incident?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

ADV PRIOR: And is there anything else you wish to tell the Committee regarding this event?

ERNEST RAMATALA: In actual fact we were not aware that they were going to kill him because if an operation like that one, a serious one like that one, we were involved, usually we used to get some bonuses, but this one of Mr Bhila we didn't get the bonus because it was stated to us that he is just an active member inside whose got only the mere crash course.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say you usually get a bonus?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that bonus paid by?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Our seniors at the Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that a bonus when people were killed?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Not exactly killed, even when we have arrested somebody from the ANC camp.

CHAIRPERSON: You got a bonus for doing your job?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I hand up or formally introduce the statement, which has been circulated to all the interested parties as Exhibit E?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the Ramatala statement?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ramatala, I'm just interested to know, in 1987 were you an askari or were you a policeman?

ERNEST RAMATALA: A policeman.

MR VISSER: Would you perhaps just push your button?  And the bonuses you speak about, for what do you say you were paid bonuses?

ERNEST RAMATALA: For any arrest of somebody we used to call as a terrorist or somebody who is highly active on the ANC activities, we used to get bonuses.

MR VISSER: I see and who would pay you those bonuses?

ERNEST RAMATALA: One of our seniors, they used to make a claim and we get it.

MR VISSER: I see yes.  Do you know a person by the name of Stanley Moni?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything to do with Stanley Moni or did Stanley Moni have anything to do with your contact with Mr Bhila in February 1987?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No I don't recall Stanley Moni taking any part in this.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Wasn't it part of the plan that Mr Bhila was to be told that the security branch was going to arrest him again and that you and your fellow policemen or the askaris that went with you would offer him assistance to get him out of the country?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.