Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

CHAIRPERSON: If you cannot remember say so? I am not trying to trick you I am just trying to clarify my own note. If you cannot remember, you cannot help.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No it is not that I cannot remember. It is just that I just need a broader explanation because this question is not clear.

MR LAX: Maybe I can help you, maybe I can help you. What Judge Wilson is asking you is he thinks he remembers you saying that after Mike Meyers jumped out of the car you, or as he was jumping out, after you shot and hit Donne that you were worried that he might get away before you could shoot him properly. Did you say such a thing or didn't you in your evidence now in the last while? Do you understand what I am asking?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: That Mike would run away?

MR LAX: Ja, were you worried that Mike might manage to run away? Yes or no?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes. We left Mike behind and he was still alive.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I think the applicant is missing the point. Can I offer some assistance here?

MR LAX: Please do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What the judge wants from you is this. The judge says that did he hear you properly or clearly that you were worried that Mike Meyers would get away without being in a position to shoot him properly after you have fired the first shot? If I am correct then. After you have fired the first shot?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes that is so.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Botma can I just?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I do not know whether Judge you get the answer interpreted correctly what you?

CHAIRPERSON: We have, your client appears to find it impossible to give a simple answer to any question. Let's go on.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Botma for one moment please? Did you at any stage check what was in this cubbyhole, the one Mr Meyers was diving at, according to your evidence?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I was not able to check right then. But after he had been shot my co-accused and I left without having searched the truck. We went to Mbashe. The truck was then checked at Mbashe. I did not find anything in the cubbyhole. I do not know where Thanduxolo found the revolver. However when I checked there was nothing.

MR BOTMA: Now getting back to the point where Mike reached for the cubbyhole of the vehicle. You could see his body, his head downwards and you were aiming at that portion of his, correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: And the moment he reached for the cubbyhole you thought he was going for his firearm and that is why you fired the shot at him. Correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: So can you now explain to this Commission how was it possible for you to shoot Donne instead of Mike? Because you were aiming at him, he was bending forward, you were aiming at him, you could see properly and she got shot in the face, according to your evidence it is on a higher level than that what you were aiming for?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: After Mike moved, Donne also moved. As a result she blocked my arc of fire, which is why she got shot.

MR BOTMA: You using the term arc of fire, are you talking about line of fire or are you talking about arc of fire?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Line of fire.

MR BOTMA: Are you saying that Donne moved right into this line of fire, turning her head, looking towards you?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do not remember but I do remember that she had a wounded. She was wounded around the nose, downwards to the mouth.

MR BOTMA: To be more exact, if I remember correctly from the post mortem report, there was a gun shot right underneath her left eye. Is that the shot you referring to?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes it must be.

MR BOTMA: At what stage did you notice this wound? At a later stage while you were driving away?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It is when we were getting into the truck that I realised that she was bleeding. That is when I took note of it.

MR BOTMA: How was she positioned in the truck whilst you were driving away? Was she bending forward with her head on her knees?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes. Yes.

MR BOTMA: And could you also blood from the back of the head as well?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I cannot remember, perhaps I did not take note of that.

MR BOTMA: Can you have a look at bundle C, the photos taken from Donne Meyers after the incident? And let us be more specific, let us refer to for example photo 3, 4, 5. Did she have injuries on her head like this, what you seeing there? At the time you were, I am specifically referring to the top of the head. Photo 5 shows that more clearly. At the time you were driving away from the first scene to the second scene?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No she had not gotten it.

MR BOTMA: See if we once again go back to the post mortem report, page 4 of it and on the topic
"Additional Observations - entry wound noted on the left auxiliary area, fracturing the auxiliary bone and floor of the anterior cranial vast (...indistinct) entering the brain. And see Annexure p.t.o."
Unfortunately we do not have the second page or the one referring to. Are you with me?

CHAIRPERSON: Does nobody have a copy of that?

MR PRIOR: We made that available with the bundle of photographs Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: (...indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about annexure which is supposed to be on the back, it says at the bottom there: "See annexure, p.t.o."

MR BOTMA: That is correct unfortunately (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When you p.t.o. there is nothing.

MR BOTMA: We only having a copy and it seems that instead of the normal post mortem report you will have a of part of the sketch of the body and a sketch of the brain area. And the person who made the photocopies only made the photocopy twice of the body area. And I wish to add that we only have a copy available, not the original one which form part of the court record.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the original not available?

MR BOTMA: Mr Chairman I will loo into, I will try to obtain it as soon as possible. I had a copy of that in the Attorney General's office the file there. The original one that is handed in and we could not get hold of a judge to ask him, the presiding judge about happened with their original exhibits as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I understand the doctor is going to be giving evidence?

MR BOTMA: We are trying to get hold of a doctor (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Presumably he would have to have the proper record. Because he will not or I doubt that he will be able to remember the details.

MR BOTMA: We will see how far we can get on this point Mr Chair. Actually what I am driving at is this wound the one who entered just below the left eye, that shot went through the portion of the floor of the mouth and went into the brain, entering the brain. Now it seems to be the most, that was being the fatal shot. Are you saying that, that shot was fired at Donne at the first point where Mike was also shot?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: No but the question is; did this happen at the time that you were shooting at Mike? Just when did that shot, when was she shot at that spot?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: At the time when I thought that Mike was reaching out for his pistol. I think the picture is correct, towards her left eye.

MR BOTMA: But do you agree that, that seems to be the fatal shot according to the post mortem report?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I cannot say I agree or not. I do not know about the post mortem.

MR BOTMA: And you are saying that Donne was still alive even at the point when you arrived at the second scene? That is where she was shot according to you, by Thanduxolo?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I think that I said she was unconscious. She was not conscious.

MR BOTMA: Now on the way from the first scene to the second scene was she crying and screaming, groaning with pain?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: She was groaning.

MR BOTMA: And you could see that she was in severe pain as well?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.