Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

MR WEBSTER: My apologies, I noticed that pages are missing from some of the exhibits and I'm talking of the page with the four figures of the body, the figurines here, that's the page at which I'm at and which the numbers of the wounds are set out.  Unfortunately I've got a very poor copy but we then will revert to the description.  Wound number two reads
"The second shooting wound is to the neck on the right hand side."

MR LAX: Mr Webster, that wound is - if you look on page 19, it's the lower right hand figure, the injury to the neck there is visible only as a 2, although it's a bit light you can see it quite clearly.

MR WEBSTER: I was going to so speculate, thank you Sir, but that is the wound on Mr Mamela, wound number two and we know from page G3 that Mr Mamela was the right rear passenger.
	You could not have caused that wound?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I don't believe that I could have caused it Chairperson because this person, according to the document was seated on the right hand side in the back seat so this was in line with the shots which I fired which were aimed at the left rear tyre.

MR WEBSTER: I need some assistance in this regard Chairperson, wound number 4, it appears to be looking at the top left figure, to be on the left front side of the chest/

MR LAX: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: You see that on the figure?

MR WEBSTER: Yes page 9, Chairperson.   That is correct.

MR LAX: Just below the sternum.  Round about the side of the sternum.

MR WEBSTER: The top section of the sternum, yes, or probably just above, I think whilst looking at it but looking at that you couldn't have caused that wound either?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, I doubt it.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Chairperson, that's the danger of this cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Just let him get done please, Mr Visser, so he can get done and you can make all the points that you wish about how valuable this is or not otherwise we are going to carry on.  Please get done.

MR WEBSTER: And the same with wound number seven, do you agree?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, my documents are very illegible.

CHAIRPERSON: Just help him point out wound seven precisely so that he can follow it on his diagram?

MR WEBSTER: In the description it says
"Seventh wound is wound on the area of the pectoral Maj"

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Which page Chairperson?

MR WEBSTER: 17, the second page of the list of the injuries, the very top one.

MR LAX: Just for the record that's page 18, you're obviously missing a page.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what is the description.
MR WEBSTER
"The seventh wound is a shooting wound in the area of the pectorals Major, right of the excelsior fold"

CHAIRPERSON: Now you will tell me what that means?

MR WEBSTER: I seem to understand it to be on the right shoulder, where the shoulder, the bottom shoulder - was it on the front side?  I'm not really sure here, Chairperson, but as best I can, but towards on the right side of the body.

MR LAX: Mr Webster, if you look on page 20 which is the second page of diagrams, 7 is marked there with a line coming down.

MR WEBSTER: Would that be on the right side?

MR LAX: The figure on ...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: Top left?

MR LAX: Correct.

MR WEBSTER: Again we agree that not likely?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Not impossible, but not likely?

MR WEBSTER: Thank you Sir.

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: That's the highest that one can pitch it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha and again, Chairperson, I will ask you to bear with me, there are some newspaper cuttings which we've managed to circulate.  I don't know if you've had a chance to just look at them, Mr Botha?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I haven't seen it, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: I'm not going to suggest that those are the facts that what's there is true and correct, they are after all newspaper reports but they do seem to suggest that the police had great difficulty in  issuing statements regarding this incidents, do you agree with me?  And when I say statements ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You are asking him whether he agrees that that is what he has reported?

MR WEBSTER: That they had difficulties in the police issuing statements with the facts relating to the death of the four people.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know anything at all about that?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I did not come to hear of that.

MR WEBSTER: And it appears when one looks at this and again, Chairperson, with your indulgence, looking at the third page of these cuttings, the head note reads
"Four shot dead, police silent."
And the bottom right:
"Police remain silent over Natal shooting."

CHAIRPERSON: What is your question?

MR WEBSTER: I'm just going to suggest that indeed there was difficulty in the police issuing statements to explain this killing.  Chairperson, I'm not putting it as a fact, I'm putting it as I indicated to you, as suggestion.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what question do you want to put to this witness?

MR WEBSTER: Would he agree with that suggestion?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I was not responsible, there was a officer appointed who would handle press releases at that stage so I would not know.

MR WEBSTER: This penultimate point that I wish to take, Mr Botha, after the killings from what I understand your evidence, it was either you or the general who came up with the suggestion of getting arms and planting them on the deceased?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, Gen Steyn and I collectively decided at the scene that the weapons were to be fetched and I planted the arms in the vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: What I want to know, Mr Botha, and this is the question I'm going to ask you, the thought could not have emanated from the two of you simultaneously, not the agreement, the thought, whose idea was it?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it's difficult to say now, it could have been either mine or either General Steyn's but it was definitely one of the two of us who decided or came forward with the idea.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, if you look to your right you will see members of the families of those four young people that you murdered.  I take it that you are aware that their presence here is because they want to know who killed their children?  Is that not so?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It's probably so, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: And from your evidence they can never ever know who killed their children, is that not so?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I have sketched it to the Committee that I fired shots and other members of the South African Police fired shots and what else can I say?

MR WEBSTER: Do you agree with me, Chairperson, that in their minds they will be justified in going away with that uncertainty and lack of knowledge about the identities of the killers, they will not even know who to forgive and who to pardon and who to reconcile with regarding the death of their children because we only have possibilities, we don't even know who killed their children?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot state here what their thoughts are at the moment, the family members who are here, I don't know what they are thinking.

CHAIRPERSON: You can never know what ...(intervention)
Sorry, Mr Botha, please finish?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It's difficult to comment as to how the families feel.

MR WEBSTER: You cannot dispute that that is how they feel, the way I've described for you is the way that they feel, you cannot dispute that?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: You represent them so I would assume that it is so.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, I didn't hear you at any stage, I know it's not one of the requirements for amnesty, I didn't hear any indication of any remorse from your side, am I correct?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Up to this stage not yet Chairperson.