Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That incident I handled on the same basis as this one, in other words, I did not report back.

MR PHOSA: You keep saying in response to some questions: "Yes, in the normal situation yes, I would do a, b, c, or x, y, z, but you see, earlier on when I started cross-examining you or questioning you, you said: "In those days in that period the death of human beings was a normal thing", do you remember saying that?  Do you remember saying that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: What I meant Mr Chairman was, that people died during this unrest period, many people died on a daily basis.  They died where the police and the protesters got involved, where they murdered one another, this is was I meant by that.  I did not mean that the police just killed people during that period.

MR PHOSA: You know, I am simply trying to refresh your memory and mine and allowing you to correct me if I'm wrong.  Short and simple, I understood you to be saying early in our dealings between you and me in these proceedings, you said - you've got to have a context, "In that period death was not something surprising, it was a common thing".   Now, didn't you say that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, if you've understood me wrong - I can't remember what the earlier question was, what I've said: "On a daily basis many people died during that time".  I did not mean that the security police or the South African police were killing those people.

MR PHOSA: Let's leave that for the time being.  Now, you said in your evidence yesterday when you were being led by my learned friend Mr Visser, you said -  I think you repeated this today, this thing worried you, what you did worried you, in other words it's something that bothers your soul, isn't it?  It bother you what the two of you did - what the four of you did?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I have just repeated that it was a very unpleasant task for me as a person and I think also for all my colleagues.  It was a very difficult thing to do, extremely difficult.

MR PHOSA: Without having asked Mr Chairman, why he raised the question, I can assume and I ask it my own way - the one before, the Kondile incident the year or so or even less before that, was that not also a very nasty thing to have done or to do?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman, that was also a nasty thing to do.

MR PHOSA: Right.  So, it did not deter you from doing the next one - the nasty thing you'd just done did not stop you from doing another nasty incident - now killing two people?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I must admit and I say I was wrong but the circumstances of these two cases are unrelated.  I understand Mr Chairman, that did not prevent me from doing this deed.  It is like that.

MR PHOSA: Maybe I should stress what I have in mind.  I'm assuming too much in your favour for purposes of this discussion.  I thought you would say: "The killing of Kondile was something that disturbed my soul tremendously".  Am I wrong?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, it did bother me.  This was an ongoing feeling which never leaves one.

MR PHOSA: Which one?  Did you have an ongoing feeling after killing Kondile, a feeling that never left you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I could never forget that.

ADV SANDI: Can I ask to interrupt you Mr Phosa?  I'm not quite sure in my mind as to how far you can take the witness in your cross-examination regarding the Kondile matter, given that it is not the subject matter of these proceedings.

MR PHOSA: No, I'm simply testing the witnesses sincerity when he tells this Commission what he did in the present instance severely affected his soul because it is - I said when I was asked earlier: "Why we are objecting", we said "This is not a political conduct as far as you're concerned, it's an action of people who were just behaving like rogues, just killing.  Now, I'm not concerned about the Kondile incident as such but it's a series of events that shows - establishes, we shall argue that these people are simply killers.

CHAIRPERSON: You've just made the point haven't you, you will argue it?  It's a question for argument, isn't it?

MR PHOSA: Not without evidence.  I've been asked why I raised it, I can't raise it without giving the witness an opportunity of answering it, I have to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: He's tried to do so.

MR PHOSA: He's trying his best I know.  Mr Erasmus, all I'm trying to find out from you is this, is it correct that according to you - I know it's before but shortly after you had extinguished Kondile, you had this feeling - oh, I've done a terrible thing, and that feeling was with you right through.  Is that your evidence?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that is my evidence, that is my personal, my human evidence that I could never forget that.

MR PHOSA: As you were giving instructions to these other gentlemen to go and destroy, eliminate, wipe out these two gentlemen, that is Mthimkhulu and Madaka, as you were doing that you were still having this terrible feeling about what you had done with Kondile.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I have told you Mr Chairman, I could never forget this incident.

MR PHOSA: So the answer is yes, at the time that you were busy doing this you were still having this terrible feeling about what you had done the year before - the answer is yes.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It is yes, Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Did you discuss with your colleagues - the other colleagues, regarding this incident the present one, when it should be done - when?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Are we referring to Mthimkhulu and Madaka?

MR PHOSA: The answer is yes.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I discussed with them when this should be done.

MR PHOSA: Can you just let us into that secret, how did that discussion go?  Now who came to you and said what - before, who said what to you about that for you to say: "Let's do it in this way and that way"?  Just go - just give us those details.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, in my evidence I said that du Plessis and van Rensburg came to me and they reported back to me regarding the situation surrounding - centring around Mthimkhulu and Madaka.  They mentioned the activities in which these people were involved during that specific unrest period.

MR PHOSA: Yes but really, they must have reported to you before that day - even if not those two specifically, by that time you had information on a daily day - on a day to day basis as to what their role was, it's true isn't it ...[inaudible] Mthimkhulu and Madaka?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, there was continuous reporting regarding these two but the handling of this specific incident where we concentrated on the roles of these two people and reports were provided regarding these two.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I clear up one point before you go on.  As I recollect your evidence you said: "If I remember, it was 10 days before the 14th of April 1982", is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: That that's when they came and discussed it with you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PHOSA: After they had given you this background, on this day of the decision - what next?  I'm interested to know what next happened.  They've given you now an account of what these people have done and what have you, so who said what?