Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: It's a collateral  issued I am not going to -but let's deal with the main issue.
"After the largest Afrikaans church, the NG Kerk, Dutch Reformed Church decided to open its doors to all races and to renounce apartheid, a group of right-wingers formed their own church, the APK, under Duminy Nico van Rensburg."
Is that correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And according to the compilers of this report,
"The church is unashamedly racist and only Whites are allowed to be members".

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that's the opinion of the writer of that report.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, let's take the opinion away from the fact. Has it got any Black members?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, it does not, Mr Chairman.  (Laughter).  (Applause).

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, to the best of my knowledge it doesn't have English-speaking Whites there either.

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't know that that makes it any better.  (Laughter/booing).
	If it doesn't take Englishmen, what are you doing there?  
(Laughter/Applause).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos - Mr Bizos, Mr Bizos, please, I would just like once again to appeal to the people, they are in fact disturbing these proceedings, by making the noise they are making.  Please try and restrain yourself. I said a few days ago we are not in a theatre, this is a serious matter.  So please allow these proceedings to carry on in a dignified way.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, may I enquire from Mr Bizos what is the relevance of this question?

GEORGE BIZOS: I can just say, Mr Chairman, he claims to have done it for God and Christianity, Mr Chairman. I am entitled to test the sincerity of his feelings, once he claims to be a Christian. And I want to ask him, I will want to go on to ask him if there is a Christianity for Blacks and a Christianity for Whites, and such other questions in order to show that his written and verbal statements are a lot of humbug, Mr Chairman.  That is the relevance of it.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, permit me to answer Mr Bizos' questions.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I will ask the questions, I was addressing the Court.  Wait for the questions, please.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

JUDGE WILSON: You did ask him a question Mr Bizos and you complained that he hadn't answered it yet.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: May I answer the question, Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: Please.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I wish to remind the Committee that the question Mr Bizos addressed to me, which he wouldn't allow me to answer, was what was I as an Englishman doing as a member of the Afrikaanse Protestantse Kerk.  I want to answer that question.  For Mr Bizos to call me an Englishman, Mr Chairman, is actually an insult, because I am - Mr Chairman, I am of both Scots and German descent, and if anyone, and I think possibly one of the members of the Committee will understand our problem with being called Englishman, Mr Chairman.  Because if there are two nations in the world who are more at loggerheads with the English than the Germans and the Scots, I would like to know.  And the fact that I use English here, as I explained to you, Mr Chairman, I was prepared to use both English and Afrikaans. I am speaking mainly English to assist the Committee, because I appreciate the language problem, but if Mr Bizos carries on in this trend, Mr Chairman, I will be forced to assert my Afrikaner identity and speak Afrikaans.  And I don't want to do that.  (Applause).

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now Mr Derby-Lewis this church that you belong to, did you go to it the day after the murder?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, what is the relevance of that question?

CHAIRPERSON: He can just answer yes or no.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am quite happy to answer that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am quite happy to answer that. I did not go to church on that particular Sunday.

GEORGE BIZOS: You didn't go to church?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wasn't it a wonderful opportunity to go and give praise to the Lord for the death of the anti-Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't have to go to church to practise my religion. I practise my religion every minute of the day.  (Laughter).

GEORGE BIZOS: Including when you conspired to kill Mr Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that can we then say that the first reason that you give why Mr Hani was killed by you, was because you wanted to kill the anti-Christ and save South Africa?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The first paragraph reads as follows, Mr Chairman
"To strike a blow for Almighty God and Christianity against the anti-Christ Communism in the form of the leader of the SA Communist Party."
Nothing about South Africa.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, so that it was an entirely religious and not a political motive?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I think I have answered that trend of question so completely. If I must re-read this question of the objectives and then re-read the chapter in my form which is relevant, is that necessary, Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: I didn't ask you about that, I merely asked you this;  that you say, when I added that in order to save South Africa, you denied it.  And you said you didn't say anything about saving South Africa. You only did it for God and Christianity.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, when I said that, Mr Chairman, I wanted to make sure that the record was correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, good.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right.

GEORGE BIZOS: And then once the record is correct, and this quote and we deduct what I said, and what I added, this is a very deeply felt religious conviction, is it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: This first paragraph?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And as you put it in as the first attitude of the first objective, it must have been the predominant motive?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: As a practising Christian, Mr Chairman, my priority is to Almighty God before all else.

GEORGE BIZOS: Your first, your first duty is to God and Christ and that's why you took part in the murder?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: My duty is to Almighty God.

GEORGE BIZOS: To Almighty God?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: To Christ?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: To Christ and to Almighty God.

GEORGE BIZOS: Particularly to kill the anti-Christ.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Do I have to read this again, Mr Chairman to answer that question.

CHAIRPERSON: You have asked that question already, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. Now  ... (intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, before you leave that paragraph one.  It is not clear to me, I don't know as yet how relevant the whole question of Christianity is going to be.  It may appear later to be much more relevant than one thinks, I don't know.  But, are you saying that what you have done, the killing of Hani, would have been something that your church would have gone along with?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I believe so, Mr Chairman, yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Your church, you are of the view that your church approved of that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am of that view, yes, Mr Chairman, having discussed it with the late Dr Treurnicht on a theological basis and receiving his assurance that in certain circumstances it would be permissible to kill the anti-Christ.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But Dr Treurnicht was not a member of that church, was he?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know - no, I don't think he transferred over but he was very sympathetic towards that church and he was very disillusioned with the hypocrisy within the Dutch Reformed Church at the time of his death.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you have with members of your church, did you have a discussion of - or perhaps let me start it after the event.  After the murder of Chris Hani did you discuss the incident with your church?