Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-06-30

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: It happened very, very, veryfast, I don't remember if anyone had entered the house.  But I haven't seenanyone in the house, except for myself and the late Prince when he was respondingto Mrs Swanepoel's shot.

MR VAN RENSBERG: The question is was the deceasedin the house or outside the house when he shot Mrs Swanepoel?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: The deceased, you are referringto the late Prince or the late Mrs Swanepoel?

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Referring to the late Prince,the question was when Modau shot Mrs Swanepoel, was he inside the house or outsidethe house?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Right inside the house.

MR VAN RENSBERG: So you agree with me thatModau entered into the house with yourself?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: No, no, not with myself, I enteredin the house following Mr Swanepoel, so we did not enter the house at the verysame time, maybe he went first or after myself, but not at the same time.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Is this one of the instanceswhere you can't exactly remember what happened?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I am sorry?

MR VAN RENSBERG: Can't you exactly rememberif he did go first or if he did go last?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, I can say so.

MR VAN RENSBERG: When you entered the house,what did you order Mr Swanepoel to do?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: The order was "go intothe house", I did not tell him anything except for that.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, after you entered intothe house, what did you want him to do?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: He did not do anything in thehouse, because he ran away.  I wanted to shoot at him, but my gun jammed, soI did not talk to him after that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Van Rensbergis getting at Mr Thobejane is, why did you want to take Mr Swanepoel into thehouse at all.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Oh, I am sorry to say that,I wanted to shoot at him in the house, not outside, because it would, the soundof the gun would make a lot of noise and people around would hear that therewere people who were shooting and I did not, or according to the plan, we didnot want to shoot anyone outside the house, but inside the house, so that thereis no noise.

MR VAN RENSBERG: I put it to you Mr Thobejane,that Mr Swanepoel was ordered by yourself after you entered the house, to goto his bedroom and you followed him closely with Mr Modau.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: It wouldn't be possible becausePrince was busy with Mrs Swanepoel.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, well it is nota question, it is being put to you, this is just for your comment that Mr Swanepoelwas told by you to go to his bedroom.  That was one aspect of it and that youwere together with Modau, but what do you say about you saying to Mr Swanepoel"go to the bedroom"?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Go to the house, not to thebedroom.

MR VAN RENSBERG: This bedroom or this roomaccording to your evidence that Mr Swanepoel jumped into when he fled from you,do you agree that is exactly the same room in which Mrs Swanepoel was shot?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I don't remember well if itwas the same room, but what I know is that he ran into one of the rooms in thehouse and we tried to open, and open, but we couldn't succeed.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Did you see Mrs Swanepoelin the house?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Mrs Swanepoel, when I see her,it was outside, I was still outside.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Okay, let's rephrase thequestion, did you see Mrs Swanepoel when you were in the house?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: In the house I did not see her,I had seen her whilst I was still outside.

MR VAN RENSBERG: How did you see her whenyou were outside?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Through the window.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Now, this window  or theroom that you have seen her in, is that the same room where she was eventuallyshot in?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I can say so.

MR VAN RENSBERG: You can say so?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Sorry, I didn't hear.  Youcan say so?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Now, I put it to you thatis exactly the same room, namely the main bedroom, where Mr Swanepoel jumpedin and at that same moment when he jumped in, the deceased, Mr Modau shot MrsSwanepoel.  Can I repeat that for you?  What I am putting to you is that MrSwanepoel, when he ran away from you, he jumped into the main bedroom and inthat same bedroom and simultaneously Mr Modau shot Mrs Swanepoel.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: If it had happened that way,Mr Prince Modau who shot Mrs Swanepoel, would have also shot Mr Swanepoel, soby the time he shot Mrs Swanepoel, Mr Swanepoel was not in that room.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I also put it to you that inthat very same main bedroom, that is where the safe is in which the guns andthe cash are kept, or were kept?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I don't know about that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thobejane, the operation thatnight, was it purely to go and attack the farm, was there at any stage everany talk of repossession?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: We did not go to the farm torepossess anything, we went there for the shooting or the killing.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Mr Thobejane, it was partof APLA's policy to repossess the farms by attacking the farmers, is that notcorrect?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: It is correct, yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: So, are you now saying thatin a way you were trying to repossess the farms over the long term, but youwere not ready to repossess the firearms and the cash.

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: No, no, maybe there is a misunderstanding. I was not a member of the Repossession Unit or one of the Repossession Unitsof APLA, I was not in that Unit.  It is only the Repossession Unit which wasresponsible for repossessing of whatever it is, but it was not my duty, thatone.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that you werein the Offensive Unit?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: I was in the Offensive Unit,I can say so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that there was also aRepossession Unit?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that within APLA all theseUnits performed different functions?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that your Unit as an OperationUnit was merely to launch an attack and not to repossess?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, that is correct, not torepossess, yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. The place where you hid before the attack, was that also the same place whereyou ran to after the attack, the safe, your hiding place?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Can you repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBERG: I want to know if the placewhere you stayed before the attack, is that the same place where you ran toimmediately after the attack?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes, the same place.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Where is that place?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: In Runnymead, it is a village.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Who is the owner of thatplace?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: The owner of that house is MrPiet Nociri.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Do you know anything of thewhereabouts of this Mr Piet Nociri?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: All I know is that he was arrestedand later discharged because the charges were withdrawn against him and thenI haven't seen him after this incident.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Was he charged in the samecase as you?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: In your statement which formspart of the Bundle of documents, you mentioned that the orders were given toyou by the High Commander of the organisation of APLA in the person of Mr LethlapaMpahlela, is that correct?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Lethlapa Mpahlela is a memberof the High Command, yes.

MR VAN RENSBERG: And he was at the time theDirector of Operations as you have testified?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: The National Director of Operations.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Do you know what the whereaboutsof this Mr Mpahlela is at the moment?

BRIAN CLIFFORD THOBEJANE: Not at the moment.