Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, it has to be added there, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And in paragraph 8 of the same page you mention that
"Col de Kock gave instruction to Roelf Venter of Vlakplaas to plant two handgrenades and a pistol that came from Vlakplaas ..."
Is that correct?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, that is incorrect, Chairperson, he said that we need to contact Roelf Venter, but before anything could be done about that, Mr Ras said that he had two handgrenades and a pistol with him.  Mr Roelf Venter was never close to the scene.

MR PRINSLOO: And were any persons sent beforehand across the border in this instance?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: In the first instance, no, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Pienaar, if we could continue with the following instance which took place on the 12th of June.  There has been evidence already by Mr de Kock.  Did you also receive information from the same source in this instance?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And was Col de Kock called in once again to Piet Retief?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is so, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And with the information of the first instance, did anything take place the first day?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson, I contacted my own Commander, Col Deetlefs, he was available, he came down himself to Piet Retief.

MR PRINSLOO: And for sake of completion for the Committee, Col Deetlefs was at that stage situated at Ermelo?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson, he was in command of Ermelo as well as the sub-branch Piet Retief.

MR PRINSLOO: And was Col Deetlefs also tasked with the gathering of information and liaison with Swaziland, with regard to ANC actions?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And did Col Deetlefs also come down to Piet Retief?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: He did.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it true that he joined you later that evening?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson, he arrived there that evening.

MR PRINSLOO: And with regard to this specific action, was use made of a small bus, a minibus?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.  I contacted Col Rorich at Witbank with regard to assistance with the vehicle and he told me that he did indeed have such a vehicle which we could use and he came to Piet Retief with the minibus from Witbank.

MR PRINSLOO: And Col de Kock come with his members
from Vlakplaas?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And was a planning launched?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, a planning was launched.  We decided on the same place where this first instance took place.  I called in Sergeant Manzini from the Detective Branch, to drive the vehicle to fetch the people ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, why did you call in Sergeant Manzini?  You said you called him in to drive the vehicle, but why did you choose Sergeant Manzini?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I knew him very well, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Pienaar, was it with the knowledge of his commander at the Detective Branch?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, it was with the knowledge of Lt Combrink.

MR PRINSLOO: That you would use Mr Manzini?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And this place where the action would take place, was it pointed out to Mr Manzini beforehand?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, where we would be.  Because he was a Detective in that district, he immediately knew when I told him where to wait at that large bluegum tree, he knew the place and no further instructions were necessary for him except for the flickering of the lights of the vehicle.

MR PRINSLOO: Did Mr Manzini know that he would be transporting trained MK members, possibly armed?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, he was aware of it, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And that those persons would illegally come through the fence and be infiltrated into the Republic?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And was instruction given to Mr Manzini what he had to do if these persons were armed?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, it was told to him to switch on the left indicator light and to get away from the vehicle as quickly as possible.

MR PRINSLOO: Was Mr Manzini aware at all that shots would be fired, or what your specific plan would be besides that he had to bring these people to the scene and put on the indicator lights and jump out?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It was never said to Mr Manzini that when he gets away from the vehicle, that we would all start firing.  He might have thought so, but it was never specifically told him "Listen the minute you run away from the vehicle, we will start firing".  It was never put as such to him.

MR MALAN: But you did tell him "Get away because we will fire"?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, he just had to get away from the vehicle, but we did not say "Run, because if you get away we will start shooting immediately".

MR MALAN: But to get away, he could not draw any other inference other than that you would open fire?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I believe so, that there could be problems.

MR PRINSLOO: Could he also believe that he would end up in cross-fire if he stayed there?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is so.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Pienaar, this action was launched and planned for the evening, that Col de Kock was in command together with Col Deetlefs, Rorich, Theron, Hayes, Barnard and then Mr Vermeulen from Vlakplaas and W/O van Zweel from Ermelo?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you take up place in this pre-arranged place?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: What happened then, Mr Pienaar?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Before that, Botha, Cpt van Dyk, Mr Ras and I think Mr Tait were told to go to the rendezvous point at the border to surmise whether they could possibly intercept the persons who would bring the MK members to the border for infiltration.  They departed for Swaziland and later that evening the kombi returned from the border.
	Manzini drove past us and I would not be able to say how far it was, it was a few metres past the place where he was supposed to stop.  I would also like to mention to the Committee that a plastic bag was attached to a branch where he had to stop.  He drove past, Col de Kock started running to the kombi and the rest of us followed.  Manzini did jump out of the kombi and immediately started running away, around the front of the kombi.
	A male person climbed out of the left front door of the kombi with an AK in his hand.  And I am certain that this person fired a shot.  Later an AK shell was picked up there.  Col de Kock immediately started firing at this person and the other members also opened fire on this person and the other persons in the kombi.  After a while we ceased fire and the kombi was searched.

MR PRINSLOO: Did this actually take place very quickly, Mr Pienaar?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, Chairperson, it was very quick.  There were four men in the kombi, they were all fatally shot, an AK47 was found with them, with an extra magazine.  I secured all these weapons personally because they were all cocked.  And in two carry bags which were also in the kombi, I found two handgrenades.

CHAIRPERSON: Two handgrenades in each bag or?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: One in a bag, Chairperson, there were just two.  And we secured all these weapons.

MR PRINSLOO: Were there any magazines?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: There were two magazines for each AK, Chairperson, there was one in the weapon and one extra magazine.

MR PRINSLOO: Was this scene visited by a service officer?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It as visited.

MR PRINSLOO: And after the visit of the service officer the persons were taken to the State Mortuary.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.