Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: On the said date, we were all assembled in the house and we had different meetings.  We were trying to strategise how we could combat this enemy which is fighting us.  Fortunately, whenever the ANC Youth met, we used to
3B.	have/...
199
have some people who stand outside to watch for the enemy so that we could be able to combat the enemy when it comes.  And as they were standing outside, this very Mazwi with his group, they were in a taxi and unfortunate for them, a second house from my house, it's a spot.  So the mine people used to drink there.  So they realised that they will not be able to land the bomb which they had, which they were going to use to explode the house, and I understand it was a dynamite. So realising that they would not be able to reach the house, they threw the dynamite out.  So the boys who were standing outside, they thought that it was a cricket, so they ran to extinguish the cricket, and the mine people warned them and said, run away, that is a dynamite. It went, I understand it burned until it came to where it should explode. It exploded and fortunately where we were was not affected.  It was only the houses next to the place where we were and the electric house, which exploded.  But it was not a dangerous explosion because they say dynamite cannot explode that fiercely if it is not put under a rock or something.  So after it had exploded the youth was very cross. They went and hijacked the taxis and the people from the mine assisted them.  They went all into the taxis to look for these boys so that they could revenge for what thy had done.  Unfortunately they could not find them on that night.  They came back to the house and they slept and in the morning they woke up without anybody seeing to stop them to do what they wanted to do.  They went to Mazwi's place and they found him. They pulled him out of the house to the taxi rank and at the taxi rank this boy was killed by the whole community.  Everybody came with sticks, with stones, with everything on him and other people actually identified 
3B.	their/...
200
their clothes on him.  Somebody said, these are my shoes and somebody said, this is my jacket, somebody said, this is my trousers.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you.  To clear up something.  You talk of people who used to stand outside and watch the enemy.  I
want to assume that you are referring to the marshals, isn't it.

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Ja, definitely.

<UNKNOWN>: If I may ask you in a nutshell, sort of, I believe that will bring it clarity.  If, what was the political set-up at the time?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: It was very volatile. We could not move and unfortunately the police could do anything they wanted to do with us and the press could not report.  There was no press reportings.  We were tortured by the police.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mrs Kunwana, you testified that these boys were given, that is the vigilantes, they were given drugs and weapons and even a telephone was installed and the leader's house was used as an office, who is this leader?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: It was his home, the very same Mazwi.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The deceased?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Ja the deceased.     It was his home.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was a telephone installed in his home?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: In his home.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many marshals stayed in your house?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Whew, I don't know.  I never counted them, who were many.  I say it was ANC Youth League, ANC Mother Body, SACP, COSATU, name it, Civic Association, ANC Womens' League, everybody stayed there.
3B.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
201

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You certainly had a big house?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Ja it's a big house.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ms Kunwana, were any efforts taken by yourself, by yourself I mean the organisation and all its alliances, towards stopping the killings or addressing this a
...(intervention).

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Ja a lot of efforts were done. We reported first to our local police. Koekemoer was in charge that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he....

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Was in charge of the local police station.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you say Koekemoer was in charge do you mean ...(intervention)

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Of the local police station, the Kuma police station. He was the station commander.  We reported to him. Seeing that he did nothing, in fact he played innocent, he played it very cool because he was aware that he was in the township.  Anything could happen to him.  We reported to the Klerksdorp police station. We reported to the Stilfontein police station. We reported to Potchefstroom which is the headquarters.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you perhaps know to whom did you report at  these other police stations? If you remember the names of the police?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Not the names.  We always reported to the senior man. We reported to the station commander in Stilfontein, station commander, to the captain in Klerksdorp. We reported to the captain in Potchefstroom, we had meetings with them. We had daily meetings with them, trying to beg them to help us but nothing happened. We went to the Lawyers of Human Rights for assistance.  They tried
3B.	to/...
202
to mediate for us, in vain. We reported to our regional office, the ANC office, we went to report there for assistance.  Well they were also victims, they could not help us.  They said they would also be sjamboked and anything could be done to them.  We just reported for.  We reported to ANC Headquarters in Johannesburg.  We went there several times for assistance.  They used to talk to us.  We reported to the Youth League nationally.  They came, we held meetings with them.  We had meetings with the police.  The police would pretend that they understand but as soon as the leadership goes away the whole thing starts off again.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now at all these meetings, as you say you had meetings with the police and the Youth Leagues, were the vigilantes also represented at the meetings?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Yes they were.  And during the meetings they were angels.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: They were?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Angels.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Oh.
(Tape 3B ends)- (Tape 4A commences)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was the deceased Mzimeni one of the angels in the meetings?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: We even went to the extent of making him one of the chairpersons for the meetings and on one occasion we made him a secretary so that we show him that we recognise him, but all that was in vain.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you testified that there was police  involvement with the vigilantes.  Now I want to ask you, how did you perceive the involvement of the police with these vigilantes?  What came into your mind?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: We knew that as ANC we were not wanted.  What 4A.	came/...
202
came into our minds is that they want to destroy us, and destroy ANC. That's what came into our minds and we were prepared to protect our organisation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would you say you perhaps perceived the police as carrying out a mandate for some form of authority by getting involved with the vigilantes?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Well the authority which was de Kock was also involved in the whole thing. De Kock, we perceived him as the highest authority of the police and fortunately the high ranks are the people who used to come to harass us and the other police at the bottom used to follow.

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Do you perhaps know de Kock's rank?  What was his rank then?

MARY AGNES KUNWANA: Aye I forgot but he was lieutenant or something, I don't know these ranks, he was something.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mrs Kunwana, as you had numerous meetings with the police, perhaps de Kock also included, would you say de Kock was acting on his own or would you say he was also carrying out instructions?