Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR DORFLING: You were also positioned on the Shell House side of the street so to speak?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is right.

MR DORFLING: And to which side were your feet and to which side was your head?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: My feet were facing Shell House. My head was facing I will say the chemist.

MR DORFLING: In other words you were facing roughly across the street to the other pavement but some way up the street towards de Villiers Street. Is that what you say?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is right.

MR DORFLING: Did you have your firearm, at that point in time did you have your firearm against your shoulder?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is right.

MR DORFLING: Was your intention to utilise it and to shoot in a normal fashion one carries a firearm when you shoot in that position? In other words with the butt against your shoulder and the barrel faced in the direction where you intended shooting at?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is right.

MR DORFLING: Were you resting the upper part of your body on your forearms or elbows?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is right.

MR DORFLING: When you decided to fire did you aim at anybody specific in the crowd?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Sometimes.

MR DORFLING: What do you mean sometimes Mr Khumalo?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Because there was somebody which I have seen who was carrying a pistol shooting at the people at the parapet.

MR DORFLING: Did you aim in the direction of the person you saw shooting at the parapet with a pistol?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Did you in your recollection of what transpired on the day then fire shots in his direction?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Was that done on automatic fire or on single shot fire?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: It was on the automatic.

MR DORFLING: Was it a short burst of fire or did it carry on for a long time?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: It was a short burst.

MR DORFLING: Apart from that short burst of fire did you fire any other shots in the direction of the crowd?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Did you fire at anybody in specific amongst the marchers?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I can't be sure.

MR DORFLING: Where did you aim your firearm to Sir when you fired these other shots?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I don't understand your question.

MR DORFLING: Where were you aiming at when you fired the other shots?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I was aiming at the people who were charging.

MR DORFLING: Was it more towards the opposite side of the street on the other pavement or more towards the middle of the road or more towards your side of the pavement of Shell House?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: It was more towards Jabu's Bakery.

MR DORFLING: That would be the opposite pavement from where you were lying?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Exact.

MR DORFLING: Did you just aim it at the people, at the marchers in general or did you on the second occasion when you fired aim it at anybody in specific?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No if people are charging it is so difficult to aim because I was not a sniper, I was not sniping at any other person. If you are a sniper then you can aim at that particular person.

MR DORFLING: So you were just directing your fire in the general direction from which the marchers were approaching. Is that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Of course you pick, you pick.

MR DORFLING: Sorry I am not sure I understand you. Could you explain to me?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No I mean that if people are attacking you check which one are nearer who are going to over run us.

MR DORFLING: So you were directing your fire at the approaching marchers which was closer to you?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Exactly.

MR DORFLING: And did you have your firearm at a position where it was roughly horizontal to the ground at that point in time?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I cannot remember.

MR DORFLING: The relevance being that it is now quite clear from the ballistic evidence that shots emanating from this firearm it is alleged it struck the parapet.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) otherwise we are going to go on and on discussing details about how he fired when there is no doubt about the fact that he used the firearm and people might have been injured. We don't have limitless time please.

MR DORFLING: As it pleases Mr Chair. Mr Khumalo can you explain how it happened that at least ten shots apparently emanating from your firearm struck the parapet at the top of where you were lying?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes it is I think you understand the assault rifle when you put them into automatic because I have seen, I understand you very well that you know about the firearm.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Khumalo would you please remember that you giving evidence not for the benefit of Mr Dorfling but for our benefit.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Okay if the assault rifle on automatic as soon as it jumps the second shot which means the short burst, which means two shots the third one, when it takes the third one it is out of control completely. Except that if you have taken the strap then it is under your control. But without that strap it is not under your control.

MR DORFLING: Can you give an estimate as to how many bullets you fired?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Estimate I will say from 20 or 25.

MR DORFLING: If a magazine is fully loaded how many bullets does it take?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Which magazine?

MR DORFLING: The magazine like the one you used that day on the AK47 Sir?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: There are 40 and there are 30's.

MR DORFLING: How many did the magazine you utilised on the day carry?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: 30.

MR DORFLING: How many magazines did you have Mr Khumalo?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Two magazines.

MR DORFLING: Did you need to change magazines or to reload?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No.

MR DORFLING: How many bursts of fire did you fire that day?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: You know it is so difficult to say that, how many bursts. It can be one burst, one - the whole magazine is off.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that you don't remember? You don't remember how many bursts?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the answer.

MR DORFLING: I want to turn to the incident when you and Mr Mondli Zuma went to the corner close to Jabu's Bakery, the incident when you alleged one of the marchers approaching from Wanderers side fired a shot at you. Can you think of or can you advance any reason why the following persons who gave evidence at the inquest would not have seen that incident happening? Mr Veli Llale who was positioned on the parapet. I am specifically for the benefit of the Committee referring to page 3772 lines 25 to 28. Mr Moolman pages 3445 line 17 to 3446 line 10. And Mr Von Eggedy who was amongst the crowd approaching that corner, amongst the marchers at pages 4259 line 29 and following.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman I am very mindful Mr Chairman of your remarks earlier this morning about interventions by counsel and we are very reluctant to come into it. But what my learned friend is putting does not fairly reflect the evidence. Particularly in respect of Mr von Eggedy who says that he heard some shots from ahead of him as he was moving in de Villiers Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask him whether he recalls that, that is the evidence they gave which was contrary to his evidence and if so does he have any explanation why their evidence is different from his.