bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-22

ADV POTGIETER: Your children Ms Titus refers to their ages, could you just mention them again, how old are they?

MS TITUS: One is 8.

ADV POTGIETER: Are they girls or boys?

MS TITUS: The girl is 8, she's at school, and the one is - the youngest is 5, turning 6 soon and that's the middle child and the baby is 3 and that is a girl.

ADV POTGIETER: So you have two girls and a boy?

MS TITUS: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Anything else you'd like to add.

MS TITUS: That is all I'd like to say.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you very much, I just want to ask, madam does your husband any special aids or do you look after him during the day?

MS TITUS: Yes I look after him but he is so often ill, he can hardly sleep.

<UNKNOWN>: How do you think the shooting affected him?

MS TITUS: It affected him a lot, he can't remember things, his memory is very bad.  And a very nervous kind of person and mentally he is not entirely sound.

<UNKNOWN>: Does he visit the doctor?

MS TITUS: Yes every month he goes to the doctor.

<UNKNOWN>: Any other questions - thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-23

MS KING: And then when you are nervous and all this and that, you just don't know what is going on around you.

ADV POTGIETER: Typical lawyer.

MS KING: But it was a white girlie.

ADV POTGIETER: Okay, thank you Ms King.

MS KING: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, any additional questions?

<UNKNOWN>: It's not really a question Joan. It's more or less a comment about what  you said. Because you are not only dealing with the facts about the loss of your husband, but also the memory of your pain when you discovered that you had lost him. What strikes me... we've not just your experiences but the experiences of many other women before you... is how you seem to do a lot of running around, moving from place to place. Not really knowing where to find your loved one, whether it is your son, or your husband.  I find that very hard to deal with and I wonder how you - you dealt with it. How you - how you went through this driving from place to place not knowing whether to look for him at a mortuary or at a hospital... not knowing whether in fact he was missing or what happened to him.  What was it like? What was it like just moving around not knowing what... where to look?

MS KING: Actually I didn't do the moving around, looking for him because, at that time I wasn't back from holiday. That was my brother-in-law and my mother-in-law. So I only went the day after his picture was in the paper and then, suddenly, there I found him, whereas they couldn't find him.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Ms King you have two children?

MS KING: I've got - I had three. I've got two now. The one died.

YASMINE SOOKA: How old are they?

MS KING: My daughter is now - she is now 30.

YASMINE SOOKA: 30.

MS KING: Yes and my son is 28.

YASMINE SOOKA: Okay,  thank you.  Now I was trying to determine how old her children were.

MS KING: Okay.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

MS KING: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, we will now hand over to Mr Potgieter to facilitate Mr David.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Motlale can you...hear?  You were a friend of Henry Kwisomba the deceased in this incident is that correct?

MR MOTLALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you - can you please just get a little closer to the microphone?  Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Oh! Yes, you - okay we're back on track.  You in fact were with the deceased in late December '76 when he actually died. Is that correct?

MR MOTLALE: Yes, that's so.

ADV POTGIETER: We are connected, thank you. Just briefly [indistinct] happening what was the situation like - it was 26/27 December 1976 in Guguletu. What was happening?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-23

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any - any questions? No. Mr David, thank you.  Ms King, Pumla mentioned something that has struck me about the testimony today which is this exquisite cruelty in not telling people what have happened.
 I don't think it would ease the pain, but it certainly seemed to increase the pain to have to go from pillar to post, to go to police stations and hospitals and mortuaries.  It is important for us to take in this pain, all of us, and try to commit ourselves that we want to see a country where these things will never happen.
 Because whatever we may say about the people who committed atrocities (and we know that atrocities were committed on all sides of the struggle), we can keep remembering that they too, are God's children.  And that we - we need to keep reminding ourselves we do belong in one family.  And to help those who lost their humanity to recover their old. Again, we just want to say thank you and hope that the response of people here, the response of the people who hear your story in other parts of our country, such as the response we - we saw from this dominee whose letter - part of his letter I read this morning, that, that response somehow will strengthen you and give you comfort. Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-25

ADV NTSEBEZA: And you are saying that even since then you have not tried to look back on South African society and see it in the context of those who misguided or not, were regarding that as part of  the conflicts of the past.   Have you never reflected on those sort of things since then?

MS JAVENS: Not - not really I just when the one 17 year old was caught, I went through mixed emotions.

ADV NTSEBEZA: H'm.

MS JAVENS: And then relief that perhaps justice will be done, but then as Paul said that's not us that are unqualified to work with that.  That is for the people  end of Tape 18, side B ... that take care of those things to do. And ultimately judgement to me isn't here, it's once you die, that is when you are judged. So to me whether they were caught or not, I knew ultimately they were going to come to judgement day. That's what I believe.

ADV NTSEBEZA: As a person, would you be able to forgive those [intervention]

MS JAVENS: I have forgiven.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Oh! I see.

MS JAVENS: Because God forgave me my sins and sins aren't measured to us humanly yes they are.  But not where the Lord is concerned.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you ma'am.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, any - no.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-25

DR BORAINE: Ms Gishi can you hear me?

MS GISHI: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Oh! good, can you - can you hear the translation?  Can you hear now?  Let's just - just take your time and make sure that - okay - hello good afternoon, nice to welcome you.  We want you to be very relaxed we know you not well.
Ja Ms Gishi too - before you tell your story, I have to ask you to take the oath.  So if you will please stand - so if you will please stand.  
ELSIE GISHI Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much indeed, I am sure he will.  The story you have already told  people in the Commission is a very-very sad one, involving yourself and your husband and you have suffered a very-very great deal and you are not well.  So we going to ask you just a few questions, so that you can tell us and tell everybody here what happened.  Are you really to start?

MS GISHI: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Then I am going to ask Pumla Gobodo to ask the questions, thank you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Alex, mamma can take her earphones off now.  Good afternoon mamma.

MS GISHI: Good afternoon - can I start talking now?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes mamma it's all right, you can start.

MS GISHI: I was coming home from work, it was during October/November of 1976.  When I got into the township there was chaos there was children all over the streets.  They were running away, it looks like they were running away from the police.  This went on until November.  That is now these riots.  There are soldiers as well.  When it was December we hoped that now things were now subside - this particular Saturday, we didn't sleep that night.  We saw people who had white scarves, the policeman who didn't stop this chaos, we didn't sleep the previous night.
In the following morning, we saw the soldiers on the other side and now we saw this wit these people who were known that time as wit doek.  And we saw people pouring petrol  - these certain people were trying to cross, together with these soldiers.  Now when I say these people I am referring to the wit doeke.
We tried to call Bellville and Vlakkie, no policeman came, our township was surrounded.  After we had our meal, these people who were still surrounding our place.  My daughter's husband arrived, he was from another place.  And he came to register this cases.  And he asked for the ID's and marriage certificates.  People from the rural areas were singing and there were policeman in - these policeman were from hippos.
Like I said we didn't sleep the previous night at all.  In the afternoon around two or three or four, I tried to go and look for my children.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Mamma was it on Sunday now?

MS GISHI: Yes it was.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And it was on the 26th of December?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Helderberg Tygerberg — 1996-08-07

CASE NO: CT/00847

VICTIM: AVRIL DE BRUYN (sister)

AGNES GOUNDEN: AGNES GOUNDEN Duly sworn states

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much you may be seated. Dr Wendy Orr will assist you and facilitate your evidence and I am going to hand over to her now.

WENDY ORR: Thank you chair, Agnes before we start can I just say that we've had complaints that the sound is very bad, so if you can move the microphone as close to your mouth as possible and speak into it, thank you very much. Thank you for being here, I know in terms of work commitments it's difficult for you and we very grateful that you've given time to join us here today. We going to hear your story about what happened in June 1980, yesterday we heard from Ms Willemina Moses who's daughter was shot and killed at the same time, in Elsies River. So we know that, that was a time of turbulence on the Cape Flats, and I will just quote again briefly from the research notes which we've been provided referring to police action around the 16th, 17th and 18th of June in the Coloured townships they say. Police action involved the use of tear gas, baton charges and live ammunition. Police declined to issue a casualty list. The total number of deaths recorded at five Peninsula hospitals was more than 42. Over 200 people were injured, a large number of woman, young and pregnant mothers and children were amongst the victims. Agnes can you now go ahead and tell us about your experience of the 17th of June 1980.

WITNESS: Okay on the 17th of June 1980 just after 200 pm we were at home because it was a stayaway, it was a two day stayaway. My sister and I wanted to go and check on a cousin of ours who had a husband working away and there was some sort of commotion at the entrance to Bishop Lavis and she lived in Bishop - in Lavis Drive. So inside the township there was nothing really taking place, on our way we could hear - you could hear the commotion, you could hear screaming and shouting and you know like children eagerness to see and then running away again. And we were scarred but as we could see nothing we didn't think any of it - anything of it so from there we walked from her house to her in-laws which is in Bishop Crescent which is two roads away from where she was - two streets away from where the gunmen shot her. But anyway from there we couldn't see - we couldn't really see anything, there was a man on top of his roof, who was watching the proceedings and we heard shots go off and you stand, you freeze, you stand, you want to see what's going on, but we couldn't see anything. And I remember that we walked pass a blue Beetle and I carried on walking because you were so scared so fearful. And my sister stood and ...

WENDY ORR:  This is very difficult for you to remember, just take your time.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Helderberg Tygerberg — 1996-08-07

WENDY ORR:  Thank you and I think we'd like to thank you for taking over the role of mother for that child. Just to let you and the audience know that the man who you mentioned who was standing on the roof with binoculars, Mr Ross, has indicated that he is willing to give us a statement, an eyewitness account which will in fact corroborate what you have said to us today.

WITNESS: Yes he has.

WENDY ORR: I have no further questions, I'll hand back to the chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I am going to ask Wendy to thank you for coming.

WENDY ORR: Agnes, your story has really touched me, thank you for being here today. As I said, what you have told us is what we have heard before but you've told it in a very touching and eloquent way and we have seen quite starkly how, how people who were simple carrying on their normal day to day lives got involved in the struggle and they too contributed to what South Africa is today and what it will be in the future. Thank you very much for coming.

CHAIRPERSON: Wendy thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Helderberg Tygerberg — 1996-08-06

GLENDA WILDSCHUT:  Ms Moses you've had many-many losses in a very short period of time. I wonder how that has affected you as a person, how has that affected your life?

WITNESS: I am coping as a result of my children's support and the sisters and the nursing sisters at the Trauma Centre gave me a lot of support because they were very fond of me. And they were very close to me and they helped me a lot, they gave me a lot of support.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT:  We are very grateful that you have come to tell us your story, a very painful story today. But I am wondering how it is that we as the Truth Commission can help you, what are the kinds of things that you would like from us?

WITNESS: What you can do for me is to punish the policeman responsible for my daughter's death or the State must give me some form of compensation for the fact that I raised her child, I paid for my daughter's funeral, it cost me nearly R3,000-00 and I had to care for her child for 16 years, I received not a cent for that. And I didn't look for help because I had other children working for me and my husband was also working, I was working.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much Ms Moses, we have noted what you have requested from us and we certainly will take very seriously the request that you have made to us. I would like to hand over to the Chair as I do not have any more questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Sometimes when you look at -if you look at a person, you wonder - you wonder how it is possible to still stay upright, because the weight of all your burdens is such that it is really - it is quite incredible. But here you are and you can still talk and I think you can still laugh and I am sure you can still cry. We want to thank God for having created people like yourself. And we want to offer our condolences to you and we pray that God will bless you and that God will sustain you and strengthen you. And we will try - we will try and do what we can do for you. But thank you very-very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Helderberg Tygerberg — 1996-08-07

ADV POTGIETER: Well thank you very much for that, they've left without giving me the opportunity to do that, but as they leaving thank you very much for that useful context.  That is the background against which the proceedings today should be seen.
I am now going to ask Glenda Wildschut to read us the role of cases for the day.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-04-29

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  there was something that you wanted to hand in, photographs, can you let us have those please.  Thank you very much for letting us have those.  Can we keep these or you want

GREGORY EDMUND BECK: I don't have copies, maybe somebody can just copy them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, yes.  I just want to say again thank you on behalf of our Commission for your willingness to come.  I have been saying and other people I am sure make the same kind of remarks that we do have an extraordinary group of people in our country.  You testify to a change that happened in you with regard to your perceptions about the liberation movement and the struggle and you say it is in part because you have come to learn of the atrocities that were committed.
 Now the Commission is in fact being charged with telling this story, not so that we should be masochists who enjoy pain, our pain, the pain of others, that we should in fact then, as the Act says, transcend, rise above the conflicts of the past and ultimately if we are going to have the change then it is clear that forgiveness, reconciliation, are quite central to that process.  And justice is an element of it as well.  But forgiveness 
JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
11 G BECK
ultimately is to say you give people the chance to change.  You open a door for someone to move from a dark past to a new and enlightened present and future.  We hope that people like yourselves and the many who will be telling their stories, not always in public hearings such as this one, will help to contribute and we are glad that we can now begin to own the police and the defence force, and be able to say these are now ours, as you begin to change and are rehabilitated.  We pray that that process will be accelerated and that we, all of us, because all of us need to change, all of us are wounded people, all of us are traumatised people, all of us are people who need to forgive and who also need to be forgiven.   And for all of us then to move together into what is a wonderful prospect that God places before us, and look at the wonderful contribution that all of these wonderful people can make to this new South Africa.
 Thank you very much.

GREGORY EDMUND BECK: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I suggest that we break for lunch now and return at two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-03

MICHAEL BOLOFO: That's what I thought of, and I thought that they must have looked for someone who was armed, rather someone who maybe had some kinds of weapons, but seeing that they did feel pity for me, that's what puts me in a position to be able to reconcile, because if it wasn't for their sensitivity, their sense of humour, I don't think I would be narrating this story to you today.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming forward and we are aware that very many became casualties in the Struggle, old and young, and we salute the young people for their part in helping to bring about the changes.
 Thank you very much Mrs, we thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-03

MR DIPAKOANE: It is very unfortunate that we don't have his full name, because I mean everyone gave us his alias name, I don't have his full name, but I'm sure he's well known with that name, I mean you go wherever, he's known as Sebatha, so it won't be difficult to locate him.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

MR MALAN: Mr Dipakoane, just for the record, we're mentioning names here in public and especially the Minister Steve Tshwete, I just want you to confirm that according to your statement you you've never heard him say that, that's simply information that you got from another person Mkwanase, so as far as your evidence is concerned here that's hearsay and it's not first-hand knowledge. If you could just say yes or no, I don't want this to be pursued but at the same time I don't want names to be mentioned and some misunderstanding may go to the media.

MR DIPAKOANE: I think from the opening, when you were reading my statement, you did mention that our case is based on hearsay and mainly it's from the ANC camp.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, one of the things that I think keep having to be stressed when we talk about all of this business of reconciliation and forgiveness and so on, is the solitary reminder that forgiveness is not cheap and easy and it is important when people express their deep feelings as you have done, legitimate feelings.  But the world, South Africa, and I think the white community, should be aware that when people forgive or say they are willing to forgive, it is at very great cost.  We need to keep being reminded that it is a costly thing to forgive, it is happening but the reminders by those who are not yet at that point must make us be aware that we don't take it for granted and be mesmerised properly as one newspaper said happened when certain ladies went to see the President, to be mesmerised by people like himself expressing their eagerness, their willingness to forgive.  We have got people in the white community too who have been quite amazing, having undergone some extraordinary experiences, say they not only are they ready to forgive but they have already forgiven and we in our country must give great thanks to God and to those people for showing that generosity, magnanimity of spirit, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-03

FELICIA AZANDE DLODLO: I would be very grateful if the Commission would help us, not just me and my child, but all the many victims of apartheid.  You know I do really support your decision to have this counselling because I think we need to talk, we need to get it out of our systems, be given the chance to cry which many people have not done, because they thought, if I cry I'm selling out the movement, it means we are weak, and I've since learned through my experiences overseas that you've got to cry.
 I never cried for instance at my husband's funeral because I thought if I cry, I'm going to make quite a number of people happy and I don't know whether they are spies or not at this funeral, so I had to force myself to hold back the tears which thing, I can see now, was quite dumb. We don't do that.  So I do believe that I'd like the Commission to help us get over what has happened.  And quite a lot of children are suffering because we find that maybe one parent cannot cope on her own, so we really need that help.  We are not here for the money, we are just here because we know that, had our partners survived, we would have a better standard of living than we do right now.
 On the second question, I believe it would be nice if we could have a monument for all our fallen heros.  I remember my husband used to say to me when we were in Angola, so many of our people died there, we just had to bury them in shallow graves because all of us were running away. He did not know what we were going to tell their families some day when we get back to South Africa and they ask us, where is my child? Because then he'd have to point to some bushes somewhere there in Angola which he cannot even remember himself. So it would be nice if there was a monument. Sometimes when we miss our partners it is a bit difficult to go to Swaziland, we cannot afford it but if we had a monument we would go to it and just cry and show our children, and also so that our children will know just by looking at this monument just what a painful history this country has undergone so that we don't repeat the same mistakes again.
 Another thing which I discovered when I was in Britain, which was, I think, mentioned by Amnesty International, was that they wished human rights to be a subject that was taught in school, so that the world would never again repeat the atrocities that it has done. I think it is very appropriate in the South African context, because it is so easy to forget what has happened in the past.

DR RANDERA: Felicia thank you very much for those words of wisdom, I will hand over to our chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for moving for the moving testimony, it was very mature, thank you.

FELICIA AZANDE DLODLO: Thank you for inviting me.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-04-30

DR BORAINE: Mr Chairperson the following witness is Mrs Sylvia Dlomo-Jele and I would ask her to please come forward.  My first words to you are a very warm word of welcome to you this morning on behalf of the Commission.  We are very pleased that you are here and we are looking forward to hearing your story even though yet again it's a very tragic one involving the death of your son.  Before I begin to ask you about that though I have to ask you to take the oath so I would be grateful if you would stand please.

SYLVIA DLOMO-JELE: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Mrs Dlomo-Jele before I ask you to tell us about your son's death I want to remind the Commission and those who are listening about the background against which your son lost his life.
 In 1986 a state of emergency was declared in South Africa, not for the first time, this was in June, this resulted in many, many people being detained.  In fact in 1986 26,000 people were detained and the main targets of this action by the State were students and youth activists.  In 1986 children aged 18 and under made up 40% of those who were detained.  It was during these years that your son Sicelo Dlomo, who was then under the age of 18, was detained at least four times.
 Now I would be grateful if you could tell the 
JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 S DLOMO-JELE
Commission how you received the news of your son's death on that Monday the 24th of January 1988.  Please tell the story in your own words.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-04-29

DR BORAINE: Mr Chairperson one of our staff has requested that we change the order slightly for very good reason, which I won't announce now, but I hope that you and my fellow Commissioners and our friends and families together will appreciate that there is a reason for this, so I would like to call and invite Mr George Dube to the witness stand.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

DR BORAINE: Mr Dube welcome.  Thank you very much for coming.  We have brought you forward for good reason that you know about and in a minute we are going to listen to your story, but before that, and welcoming you most warmly I must ask you to please stand and take the oath.  But are you able to follow me all right, without the earphones?

GEORGE DUBE: Yes.

GEORGE DUBE: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Mr Dube you come with a different story from what we have heard during the rest of the day and as the Chairperson has stressed so often the doors of this Commission are open to all, and we are very grateful to you for having the courage and the willingness to tell the Commission your own particular story.
 Now in order to assist you in telling that story as you know we always ask one of our Commissioners or Committee members to just guide you, but it's your story.  I am going 
JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 G DUBE
to ask my colleague on my right, the Reverend Bongani Finca to assist you.
REV. FINCA: Thank you very much Chairperson.  George welcome.  We hope you feel calm and relaxed.  You have informed me that you would prefer to give your testimony in English which is a foreign language to both of us.  So I suggest that you go slowly, we both struggle with this foreign language, but if at any time you feel that you want to change from English to your mother tongue I am sure the Chairperson would allow that.

GEORGE DUBE: Thank you very much.
REV. FINCA: George your testimony begins in 1963 when as a 14 year old you and your mother left South Africa for Zimbabwe, can you tell the Commission why you left South Africa in 1963?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-02

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: Any other?  Thank you very much for the succinct testimony. One comment that I want to make which relates a little bit to what I said after Mr Jassat, I remember the funeral which you referred to and what struck me as giving such great hope for this country was that the overwhelming majority of those who attended the funeral which was at St Mary's Cathedral were what were called actually young blacks from the townships, that the cockles of your heart were warmed even at that time to see that there was a commitment, it seemed, which went beyond sloganeering to non-racialism, because here was a white doctor and you referred to the depth of racism but may be taking it more positively, I mean here were many of these young people who had often had unfortunate experiences with their compatriots who were not black coming out in quite huge numbers and doing the salute for him, which was the toytoy.  Even in those dark days you felt there was this tremendous light that it was going to be alright, that people really didn't want to look at skin colour, they would say, were you for or against the struggle and that determined whether you were accepted or not accepted.
 So thank you very much, and God bless you!
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-03

DR BORAINE: Maggie I'd like to welcome you to the Commission on behalf of the Commission.  I can understand that you've had some reservations about being here.  David Webster is a household name and has been before his death and obviously since, as well, known to many in this audience and many on this panel and you are here to tell us the story as you know it and make any recommendations and requests that you might have.  We now it's not easy, we know it's very difficult, we hope that you will appreciate that you are not under some sort of firing line or cross examination but simply amongst friends and people who are hoping to complete a picture of what's taken place in our country over the last thirty years.
 Before I ask you to start your story I'd be glad if you would stand for the oath please.

MAGGIE FRIEDMAN: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: As is our practice, we ask one of our Commissioners or Committee members to lead the witness but we stress always that it is the witnesses story and not ours. Russel Ally will do this now and I hand over to him.

RUSSELL ALLY: Hello Maggie, thanks for coming, the Commission appreciates it and realises this is very difficult for you.  It's almost seven years to the day that David was killed the first of May 1989 at approximately 10 AM, he was shot to death outside his home by an unknown gunman in Troyville Johannesburg. At the time of his death David Webster was a lecturer in social anthropology at the University of the Witwatersrand.  David Webster was also a well-known human rights activist, he played a prominent role in the Detainee  Parents Support Committee since its inception in 1981, he was also involved with the END Conscription Campaign, The Five Freedoms Forum, the Detainees' Education and Welfare Organisation, amongst many others.
 I'm going to ask you now to relate the events around David's killing.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-03

DR BORAINE: Chairperson the final witness appearing before the Commission today is Mrs Priscilla Gama and I would ask her please to come to the witness stand.
 I just want to say glad we are to have Dr Randera's three children, I think I'm right in saying that, nice to see you, you look just like him.  Not entirely, thank goodness.
 Also I think Professor Meiring's wife, I think Mrs Meiring is up stairs, we are very delighted to have her as well and of course we are as always pleased that people have come to listen to the stories and we are grateful that even as they tell their stories there are many many thousands, hundreds of thousands listening to the radio right now.
 Mrs Gama, can I welcome you very warmly, you've had a long wait, it's now half past three and at last you are here and I know that yesterday you were at a funeral anc couldn't be here, you've brought somebody with you I think, perhaps you could tell us who that is?

PRISCILLA GAMA: It's a neighbour.

DR BORAINE: We are delighted to welcome you as well. I wonder if we could have the name of the neighbour please?

PRISCILLA GAMA: ...(indistinct)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much indeed. Mrs Gama you have come to tell a story, a very terrible story about your son, and this happened in October 1993.  In a moment we're ask you to tell us what happened on that day but before that I must ask you to please stand to take the oath.

PRISCILLA GAMA: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: My colleague Mr Tom Manthata is going to help you to in your own words tell the story of what happened on that day. I hand over to him now, thank you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: God afternoon, could you please relax.  Are you working Mama Gama?

PRISCILLA GAMA: No I'm not working.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Who is working in the family.

PRISCILLA GAMA: It's my husband.

THOMAS MANTHATA: How many children are there in the family?

PRISCILLA GAMA: They were five, two of them died in 1993.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Without meaning to hurt you, how did the two die?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-03

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Mama Priscilla, I think that I am satisfied with that.

PRISCILLA GAMA: I am finished.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mama could you tell us if there were any witnesses to your son's killing?  Did anyone afterwards come forward and say they had information about his killing? How do you know that it is the ISU units that did it?

PRISCILLA GAMA: I don't know how to explain this, we just had people in that neighbourhood, one of the girls said things were so hectic and difficult, there was a lot of shooting. There were caspars, the boers caspars and black ones with black soldiers.  They said when they passed the black ones came and that's when they managed to get out and recognise Nkosinathi.

DR RANDERA: Thokozile, what would you want the Truth Commission to do for you and are there any suggestions that you would like to make?

PRISCILLA GAMA: I really how I should say this.  I can't take decisions.  In my heart there's a lot of pain because my child had wonderful dreams. He said I'd have a car, a maid and I'll leave that aside but what I could say is that since I'm looking after his child who is five years old and I'm a sickly person with a bone disease, I will not be able to bring up, support, cloth and educate that child. So as I say, I had two boys and both of them were victims of this violence, they died during the violence and my husband is already on a pension.  We will not be able to live like other people.  I think the Commission must use its own discretion on what it will do for me and also other people who have suffered would also like to see a memorial place with the names of all our children displayed because it is a New South Africa and this New South Africa has emerged from the blood of our children.  They just should be remembered and should not have died in vain.

CHAIRPERSON: Mama we would really like to thank you, we also thank your children for having made sacrifices and also that these things that you are asking for you are not asking for yourself alone, we really thank you that you are also thinking about other people, so that if there is any assistance it should not be assistance that is directed only at you, we are very happy to hear that.  May God console you and anoint you with his oil to heal your wounds.  Thank you very much.
 I want first of all to express my appreciation to the South African of Churches and the World Conference on Religion and Peace, South African Chapter, and all those who helped to organise services last Sunday on the eve of these hearings.  We want to say a big thank you to the Central Methodist Church for affording us this venue and their facilities and also to say thank you to the caterers.
 It is a mark of the transition that is happening in our country that we are able to be increasingly...........
END OF HEARING
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-02

DR BORAINE: Chairperson before I ask the next witness to come forward could I just take this opportunity of welcoming two or three people and would ask them if they wouldn't mind simply standing where they for just a minute so that we can recognise them and the SABC can identify them, for their own purposes?
 First Paul Mashala, and if I've got your name wrong it's because the handwriting that I have been given is very bad, but Gauteng MP and general secretary to the ANC for Gauteng, I don't know where you are but I think you will know who you are Paul, thank you very much indeed, nice to see you.  Trish Hanekom a member of the Gauteng Legislature, I think you are here somewhere as well, yes how nice to see you, and then also Peter Bruckner, if he wouldn't mind standing.  Peter Bruckner, a former ambassador for Denmark and one of the best friends that many South Africans have ever known.  Thank you.
 I understand that Mrs Yeats is also here and if she would stand for a moment please.  Thank you, nice to see you.
 We call a Mrs Hester Grobelaar.  Mrs Grobelaar on behalf of the Commission I'd like to welcome you here thank you very much for coming, we know it's not easy to come and testify here before the Commission. Your story deals with the death of your son Johan Grobelaar, no it's Jurgens Grobelaar, is that true?

HESTER GROBELAAR: He was Johannes Jurgens.

HESTER GROBELAAR: (sworn states)

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.  Mrs Grobelaar, Mr Grobelaar, thank you very much for being here today.  May I just say very briefly that we will rely on you as if the background of this story deals with a period of time of 1990 and 1993 and your son was involved in right wing politics in a rather strange way, but the issue is not clear at all and it is against that background that we would like to listen to your evidence.  May I also say that you have given us a very complete statement with places, dates, times, it's one of the most extensive statements which we have received as yet and we thank you for that as well.
 I think my understanding is that we will not go into find detail here but if you can place these details in context for the Commission?  Could you tell us who was your son, what was he like? How did he change over the years? What was he allegedly involved in, what happened?  We know it's a very very painful task and if it becomes too difficult, then just relax for a while, we'll understand.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-02

HESTER GROBELAAR: It's possibly the security police, we don't know who it was, but I was followed, I was watched at work continually, our phone was tapped, we received the weirdest phone calls, day and night. I don't know who it was, I can guess but I can't prove it.

DR FOURE: I'm sorry to keep asking you questions, I know it's not easy for you, I think it's very important for us to try to understand the nature of these leadership training courses.  Obviously your son was bright, he was a leader at school and he was selected to go on this particular training course. Was this under the Department of Education or was it some private organisation, who organised it?

HESTER GROBELAAR: The Department of Education.  I think they've stopped all those veld schools and camps.

DR FOURE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Grobelaar, firstly we'd like to say thank you very much, we appreciate very much that you came here.  Secondly, even though it is inadequate we would like to say that we so deeply regret that you and your family had to suffer so much.  It would appear as if there were some kind of a pattern, you were virtually crying out in anguish when you said that the newspapers knew of your son's death before you yourself knew.  Now a lot of the evidence and the stories which we have heard so far deals with exactly the same kind of thing. Many of the people who have appeared here before us have told us how devastated they were by the fact that they weren't informed of what had happened to their loved ones immediately.
 We would like to say how much pain we experience to see all the pain that people have suffered in this country.  All of us must join hands now to try to make sure that this kind of thing will never happen again in this new country of ours. Thank you very very much for coming here today and sharing your grief and pain with us.  We appreciate it, thank you.
 May I say one last thing? I would like to appeal to anyone out there who knows anything about what happened, if you call yourself a man, please come forward with the facts.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-04-29

DR RANDERA: Mr Hlongwane I understand what you are saying about your diabetes and how it's affecting you, I just want to quickly, if you will allow me just to get clarification on what you were saying as far as your second term of arrest went at Protea particularly and that you kept telling the prison administrators that you had diabetes, now was the problem that they were not referring you for medical treatment or were you not getting medical treatment?

PAUL HLONGWANE: The answer I would get was they don't have the diabetic food, they don't have those things in prison.  That is why with the assistance of Masondo we had to write this threatening letter.  It is only then they sent me to Baragwanath.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?  Thank you very much.  Dadda we are very sorry, but we are aware of how things happen that we are not sort-of totally in control of the proceedings. We started later than was scheduled and some of the people had stories that they told at great length and we, because we have said that the purpose of these hearings is largely to be a forum so that people can tell their stories, some be able to tell their story to the nation as it were for the first time.  And so we ask for your indulgence and hope that we have not inconvenienced you too much.  We know we have
JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
11 P HLONGWANE
inconvenienced you.  But we also want you to know that we will endeavour to do all we can in our capacity to try and maybe help you to do some of the things that you have asked here.  We hope you get better, or certainly that your diabetes can be kept stable.

PAUL HLONGWANE: Thanks, thanks very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-02

ABDULHAY JASSAT: I got involved politically at the age of about 16 while I was still at school and I almost got kicked out of school because we brought the school out on strike for example and took them on a march to the magistrate's court where a case was being held.  And then I was involved in various activities, for example, and I had to run away from police before the Westonaria removals came, so it's been a continuing thing.  I was arrested in 1958 and charged for incitement.  I was in prison for a while and then on bail.  The charges apparently fell through and we were discharged.  JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
26 A JASSAT
So it's been a continuing process from the age of 18, 16, 18, you know harassment, police harassment, then following me around, various things like that, right up to the age of 30 when I was eventually arrested, 29.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Jassat.  I am particularly interested in the fact that you've said something that has not been said too frequently here.   The one you said an Afrikaner police officer became friends with you and I think that that is important because the evidence, the testimony that has been coming is evidence that paints most of them in sombre lights and where the appeal that I made in a previous hearing where we needed to be careful about demonising people, I think it is praiseworthy that even after 30 years or so you remember this Constable Greeff.  We allowed you to name him because it is not to his detriment.
 Might I just point out with regard to that, that we are mindful of the court ruling against naming.  We have asked witnesses, as far as possible, if they might avoid, unless we have given reasonable notice to people.  
 The other thing that I found noteworthy in your testimony was something that went contrary again to a great deal of the testimony that we have been receiving of unhelpful or even obstructive magistrates, police officers, sometimes doctors and that you in answer to a question here said the magistrate was sympathetic but was impotent because he was reporting alleged perpetrators to perpetrators.  And I think we are grateful for that.  So that people are aware that we are just human beings and everybody is a human being, even the perpetrator.

ABDULHAY JASSAT: Basically that's true.
JOHANNESBURG HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
27 A JASSAT

CHAIRPERSON: And I hope I mean that we will be able to respond to part of what you have said and that we hope that your medical condition might improve.  But thank you very much for coming.

ABDULHAY JASSAT: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-04-29

MADRINA JOKAZI: No, nobody told me who they were.  It's only the child on the 12th of August, when we were burying the child we came across the hippo, this child started running away when he saw the hippos, he said my uncle these are the police who shot and killed my mother, those were the police.

DR BORAINE: Was it the little child who escaped when her mother threw her out of the taxi told you that it was the police who had fired on the taxi?

MADRINA JOKAZI: Yes but he only related this on the day that we were burying the mother, when we came across this hippo.  This hippo came across and the child started crying and holding onto the uncle and said please uncle help me escape, these are the people who killed and started shooting the combi and killed my mother.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Jokazi can we also just get a little bit more clarification about the other taxi driver who spoke to your son, Sbongiseni, called Pat, do you know what the other name of this ...(intervention)

MADRINA JOKAZI: Pat told Sbongiseni that he just heard other Zulu taxi drivers talking the previous day that they killed people at the garage.

DR RANDERA: (...indistinct) (Microphone not on)

MADRINA JOKAZI: No I did not know them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamma we would really like to thank you.  We do not know what remedy we can give to you to really heal your wound and your spirit, but you must know that all these people who are in front of you they are people who empathise with you.  We would ask God to embrace you during this time of pain that you are still feeling even at the moment.
 We are going to investigate your request and see how we can assist you.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-02

CHAIRPERSON: The next witnesses that we call to the stand are Philip Mazuza and Jubulani Lukhele. Please would you identify yourself, which one of you is Mr Masuza.

PHILIP JABULANI LUKHELE: I'm Philip Jabulani, during that time my name was Mazuza but my name is Jabulani Lukhele.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much indeed.  Now would you like me to call you Mr Lukhele or Mr Masuza?

PHILIP JABULANI LUKHELE: Mr Lukhele because at that time it was difficult, that's why I called myself Mr Masuza.

CHAIRPERSON: Back to Mr Lukhele, welcome to the witness stand, we are very pleased to see you before the Commission and we thank you very much indeed for coming.  We have to ask everyone who comes to take the oath, so would you please stand in order to take oath?

PHILIP JABULANI LUKHELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lukhele what you are going to tell to the Commission and to the country concerns to yourself and in order to assist you in the telling of that story Ms Hlengiwe Mkhize is going to lead you and I'm going to hand over to her now, thank you very much.

MS MKHIZE: Philip the Commission welcomes you.  Maybe before I speak to you I will address the people who are here a little bit about you.  Eight Congress of South African students, that is COSAS activists from Duduza and Kwatema on the East Rand were killed and seven severely injured when they pulled the pins from booby trapped hand grenades.  Philip Mazuza was one of these students. Philip received a serious injury to his left arm which has left him permanently disabled.  Not long after the incident and a number of other COSAS students were arrested and allegedly tortured at Danwater Police Station in Nigel.  Philip alleges that one of the arrested officers was Eugene de Kock, former commander of police unit based at Vlakplaas.
 Philip you have already said a little bit to you about where you come from, I would request you to speak to the Commission and tell a little bit about where you grew up and got involved in the struggle and the next phase of it you will tell us when you started being tortured.