Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

WALTER SMILES: Mr Chairman, let me clarify.  My understanding was that he initially said he does not know what the contents of the statement if and I then asked the question again to which he answered yes, he remembers the contents of the statement which was made on the 8th day of June '96.  I think there was a misunderstanding between myself and Mr Smiles, but I'll ask him to clarify your concern Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR TSHOLANKU: Mr Smiles, I referred to a statement that you purported to have made on the 8th day of June '96 - now I'm showing you this statement, do you know this particular statement?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that's correct - I know it.

MR TSHOLANKU: Are you aware of the contents, that is what is written here in this particular statement?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

MR TSHOLANKU: Can you explain why was this statement made by yourself on the 8th day of June '96 and explain the contents of the statement to the Committee.

WALTER SMILES: To explain, the Investigation Unit came to our home and at that time when they came there and they asked questions, they asked which car was that - they saw a White man and a Black man going into my house and I asked: "What was that"?
	So I stood outside in the street and I waited for them to come out and then I went in and I asked who they were and they said they were the Investigation Unit and I asked which one and they said the TRC.  I asked what are they looking for and they said I had to go and see them at the Savoy Hotel.

MR TSHOLANKU: Continue.

WALTER SMILES: I went to the Savoy Hotel, I met Doctor Alex Boraine and Sipho and there was a question concerning the incident of the hand grenade but I didn't trust them to give them the full information because I was being threatened.  But I went to them to give them the information but they threatened me and I felt that I then had to make such a statement but my intention was to give them the full information of the incident and not to lie to them and they left me.
	I went to Laurens Mbatha, I told him about the statement that I made and he took me away and he said to me: "Tell them the truth".   We went to them, they weren't there, they'd already left and they were here at the hearing and then I did the statement under oath.  Because I didn't understand the TRC situation and that is why I made this statement but my intention was to give them all the information.

CHAIRPERSON: Which full statement are you referring to, this one of the 8th of June?

MR TSHOLANKU: Mr Chairman, my understanding is that he is dissociating himself to the statement of the 8th of June.  He says after he made this statement, he then went to Laurens Mbatha and told him what had happened and Laurens Mbatha then took him to the HRV hearings where he then made a statement under oath.  I'll establish with the applicant as to which statement under oath is he referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: But you promised me earlier on when I wanted to clarify it to myself, when I wanted to find out whether this witness is saying: "The contents hereof come from me but they are not true" or whether he's saying: "They don't come from me at all" - you said you are clarifying with the witness.

MR TSHOLANKU: Yes, Mr Chairman with respect, this is what he said - he said the statement of the 8th day of June '96 comes from him but that information is not true because when he made that statement, he did not understand the workings of the TRC, that is why immediately thereafter he went to Laurens Mbatha to tell him about this incident and Laurens said to him he must then tell the truth - that is why he then made a statement under oath, that is how I understand him to be.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Smiles, when you met Doctor Boraine and Sipho, did you have a look at this statement on page 11, the one that your advocate is showing to you?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I had a look at it but I didn't feel comfortable about it because I wanted to give them full information but I was afraid and that is why I gave this statement.

ADV DE JAGER: Because you already said there was a threat.

WALTER SMILES: Yes, they threatened me because I asked them was I going home, they didn't say anything they just looked at me and I said: "No, but then I'm going to jail now" - so I had to lie.

ADV DE JAGER: But what we want to know - the things being said here, those are the things that you told them but it's not truth?

WALTER SMILES: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: But it is the information that you gave them, it was written down correctly?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that's true.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, it was written down correctly but it's not the truth?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, that is correct.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Tsholanku, may I just get some clarification - I believe a statement was made to Mr Boraine and Sipho, can we just get clarity on who is this Sipho, whether we are talking about Sipho Mbatwa or Sipho who is working for the TRC?

MR TSHOLANKU: Do you want the applicant to answer that?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR TSHOLANKU: You have made mention of Doctor Boraine and Sipho, which Sipho are you talking about?

WALTER SMILES: The one who is working for the TRC Investigation Unit.

MR TSHOLANKU: Do you perhaps have his surname?

WALTER SMILES: No, I haven't got his surname.

ADV DE JAGER: I think we're satisfied that we know who he's talking about now.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you.  You then mention a statement that you made under oath at the HRV hearings, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

MR TSHOLANKU: Is that perhaps the statement that is on page 39 to page 41 of bundle 2 - I'll show the statement so you can have a look at it and see if that is what you told the HRV hearings.  I'm referring to page 39 of bundle 2 to page 42, if you could read the statement and see if that is what you've told the hearings, you don't have to read everything.

WALTER SMILES: This is the statement I understand and I gave it like this to the TRC.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you Mr Smiles.  When you made this statement, when you ...[intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Tsholanku, can we rather refer to it as evidence because it really was evidence which was given to the TRC as opposed to the other statement?

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you Madam, I'll gladly do that.
	Evidence that you gave to the HRV hearings - when you gave the evidence, were you comfortable with people in and around you?  What was the position there?

WALTER SMILES: Please explain again.

MR TSHOLANKU: When you afforded the HRV this particular evidence from page 39 to 41, were you comfortable then with people around you and what was happening there?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.

MR TSHOLANKU: There has also been information brought forward to the hearing that at some point in time you were taken to a police station around here for purposes of handing you over to the police, do you have recollection of that incident?

WALTER SMILES: Yes, I can remember that,  it was arranged that I be handed over to the police.  Mr Isaacs and Mr Laurens Mbatha - it was on the 7th floor in Transvaal Road, when we got there they explained to the police official: "Here's the person who committed the crime".  When we got there, the lawyer and the commander said: "Here is Smiles, here is the person" - with this statement that came from Rodney.  These people didn't do anything, they said nothing - "No Smiles, you can go home, you are a liar, you can go home" with the lawyer and with Mbatha.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure whether I'm the only one with sensitive ears in this building but would you please request the witness to leave that microphone alone, I really can't handle it anymore - I don't know whether it's just the channel that I'm on.