Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Thank you for these words.  I would like to explain that at the time when I was giving this statement the person who was taking down the statement, I didn't give that person the particulars as to exactly who did what and who did what.
	When we were talking she asked me to explain exactly what happened at what time and the things that I explained to her, after it was taken down and written down, those are the things that I told her, the things that where I was involved I was doing something but we never discussed whether they were also attacking us and we were attacking them back.  
	I didn't explain that the ANC attacked at a particular instance and we attacked at a particular instance, but I was telling them exactly what we did, not what they did to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete, you may proceed.

MS THABETE: Thank you.
	I just wanted to ask you one question about paragraph 15.  Which time period was this, which time period are you referring to, can you remember? - when you were attacking Fawu members.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I  won't be able to remember the exact time.

MS THABETE: Maybe just to lead you on that.  The attack on the bus took place on the 28th of September 1992, so how far back was your attacks on Fawu members?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Before the bus incident we attacked ...(indistinct) for a number of times.

MS THABETE: My next question is paragraph 16 where you say that in one meeting your organiser, Mr Mbatha told you to attack ANC Fawu members and drive them out of the company so that only Zulus or IFP members can remain.  And then you go on to say
"We did just that and even now, people who are working in that company are IFP only."
What period was this?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Even if I can't remember the specific date, however we got that instruction from Mr Mbatha who was the organiser or the person who is in charge of Uwusa.  He said; gentlemen, if you want your things to go well in this area you have to take out the Fawu members from the workplace, Fawu members meaning the ANC members, you have to attack them or recruit them to join you. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still remember the question, Mr Hadebe?  The question only seek to elicit the time period when this is alleged to have been stated, not the detail.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I won't remember the specific time or month but it was during 1992 ...(intervention)

MS THABETE: Was it before or after the attack - maybe I should lead you there, when you eventually managed to get all the people who were working in that company to be IFP, according to your statement?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Before the attack of the bus.  All this happened before the bus was attacked.

MS THABETE: I'm not sure whether you understand what you're saying.  Are you saying that before you attacked the bus you managed to change everybody in the company to be IFP?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: No, we didn't convert all the people to be IFP members.  At that time they were not yet converted to be IFP members.  We didn't manage to change them to be IFP members.
	I would say that there were many people staying in the hostel who were not working and those were the people who were helping us when we were getting attacked by the Fawu and ANC members.
	When the Fawu people run away, the people when they run, the Fawu people run away from the workplace, those unemployed people from the hostel will go to the factory to look for work and the firm would normally employ them.

MS THABETE: Mr Hadebe, when did you get arrested for the bus attack?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: If I'm not mistaken it was 1993.  I can't say whether it was July.  I don't know the exact month but it was 1993.

MS THABETE: I want to come to the people who were working at your company or firm.  I just want to find out, besides the fact that there were Fawu members and Uwusa members, were there any people who were unpolitical, who did not belong to any political organisation in your firm?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Do you mean within the firm?

MS THABETE: Yes.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Inside the firm there were some other people ...(intervention)

MS THABETE: No, that's not my question, my question is were there any people who did not belong to either, to any of the organisations, political organisations, that is IFP, Uwusa and ANC, Fawu.

CHAIRPERSON: To any of the two political organisations.

MS THABETE: Ja, to any of the two political ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Or their perceived affiliates, IFP with its perceived affiliate being Uwusa, the ANC with its perceived affiliate being Fawu.

MS THABETE: Yes.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you concede that there were people who were neither members of the ANC nor the IFP?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: It's possible.  It's possible that there were people who were not affiliated to any of the two political organisations.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Mr Hadebe.  My next question following to that, would it be possible that those people  used the same form of transport that ANC or IFP people used, is that possible?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I won't be sure about that because what I can say is I used to see the people who boarded the bus.  There were people who were always celebrating and chanting and they were proud that they were ANC and also Fawu members.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying they were always celebrating and chanting?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: They were dancing - I mean they were doing to the toyi-toying and insulting, pointing at us, we the IFP members, when they were boarding the bus.  That is what they were doing.  That's the celebration I'm talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that every time they boarded buses they would be toyi-toying, chanting ANC slogans? - all the time.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, they used to sing that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Every day?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: During those days, that particular week where we attacked them, when they entered the factory and even when they were working they were singing, insulting us.
	Even if they were not singing at all times when they were working or all the time when they were in the ..(indistinct), but they had time where they did sing.  Especially the time when they have to board the bus, they would sing and toyi-toyi and insult us.
	Sometimes when they arrive the bus they will stop singing or sometimes they will continue singing in the bus.  Sometimes when they arrive in the township we might find that they have stopped singing.

MS THABETE: Mr Hadebe, I find that confusing because earlier on when you were asked a question about the time of the bus, whether you knew what time the bus went past the hostel, if my memory serves me well you said you wouldn't have known because you finished work at quarter to five, you IFP people went straight to the taxis leaving behind the ANC employees going on their way to the buses but you never saw them getting into the buses and going.  Would I be correct?  I don't know if my memory serves me correctly.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct, I didn't see them when they boarded the bus because I was no longer in the factory.

MS THABETE: So what are you saying, are you saying that you used to see them when they go to get on the bus, to board on the bus singing slogans or you are saying that you never used to see them because you would leave first with the taxis?  Which one is it?  Be brief please, Mr Hadebe, straight to the point.  Just be brief please when you explain.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would like to explain that it was known that they will take the buses home.  I knew that they boarded the buses.