Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MP PIGOU: And what was Mrs Mandela's response to you when you raised that there were growing community perceptions of problems particularly around this specific incident, what was her reaction to you and to the information that you were passing to her?

FATHER MKHATSWA: I can only describe her attitude.

MP PIGOU: Please do.

FATHER MKHATSWA: Her attitude was certainly a very understanding one and I think the discussion took place in a very amicable atmosphere.  One of the reasons for that is simply because Mrs Mandela was no stranger to us.  We had had dealings with her before and I want to believe that she really had respect, certainly speaking for myself, I say she had respect for me and therefore we were able to dialogue and to discuss and to genuinely and frankly express the concern of the structures in the community.

MP PIGOU: On a personal or on a collective level when you were going to see Mrs Mandela did you have any sort of pre-discussions as to, before you went into the meeting, that yes we should actually try and see these boys, you know this is really, we are going to get some answers if we are able to see them, did you not feel that you wanted to see them?

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well there again let me go back to what I said, namely that we did not really have enough time between the three of us to discuss our strategy or anything of the sort, save to say that Reverend Mbangula would take the lead because he had more information than Bishop Manas and myself, and that's exactly what happened.  And our agreement before we went into the meeting was that the bottom line is that we should try and impress it upon Mrs Mandela that this matter is urgent and it needs to be resolved as speedily as possible and we then got the assurance that the young men were you know quite healthy and it was nothing really to worry about and we had no reason perhaps to speculate to the contrary so we left the matter at that.  Had our mandate been to go there and secure the release of the young men I think our approach would have been quite different.

MP PIGOU: Did you not find it strange Father Mkhatswa that you were engaged in such an operation?  I mean I personally find it very peculiar that to find out something what is essentially very simple and straightforward whether someone is being held against their will or whether they are being there for their own protection that we go on this sort-of route via the person that is protecting them to ascertain whether they are actually receiving protection, I am a little bit confused by the route that is being taken.

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well as I have already told in fact I don't find this strange at all in the sense that we had a structure called the Crisis Committee that was dealing with this matter, that was co-ordinating all efforts that were designed to try to normalise that situation and as you heard from Reverend Mbangula on the 16th of January community organisations and formations came together to discuss this issue and therefore we did not see it at that particular moment really as our brief to secure the release of the young men.  And I must say also speaking for myself that quite frankly at that stage I did not have access to as concrete information as possible about the situation surrounding those young men.

MP PIGOU: Did you report back to the Crisis Committee, were you present when you reported back?

FATHER MKHATSWA: We were not sent by the Crisis Committee to go and do this and we were invited by Reverend Mbangula, and as we have heard from his testimony he did report back after the meeting to the people concerned.  I was not there because I didn't see it as part of my brief.

MP PIGOU: Just one last point then.  Bearing in mind that Reverend Mbangula has said that what is reported in the Crisis Committee memorandum about Mrs Mandela threatening to withdraw from the ANC what is your comment - well first of all did she say that during the course of your meeting?

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well that's news to me, I was most surprised when I read this in Bishop Storey's memorandum.

MP PIGOU: Well it's actually in the Mandela Crisis Committee memorandum.  They say
"She told us and she repeated this to a church delegation made up of Reverend Otto Mbangula, Father Simangaliso Mkhatswa and Bishop Manas Buthelezi that she was contemplating holding a press conference in which she will publicly announce that she has resigned from the ANC".
Did you ...(intervention)

FATHER MKHATSWA: Well the obvious person to answer that question is Mrs Mandela herself because they are merely reporting what presumably she told them and certainly during our visit there we didn't discuss this at all nor did we report back to the Crisis Committee which then might have given rise to this kind of statement.

MP PIGOU: So this would have been inaccurate ...(intervention)

FATHER MKHATSWA: From our point of view definitely I would say inaccurate.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Father Mkhatswa let me attempt to solicit again an understanding and maybe let me preface what I am about to say with some illustration out of a personal experience.  It would seem to me for instance when a child commits suicide that the parents and people would want to look back and make some reflections and see whether or not there wasn't a moment they could have identified to intervene before the catastrophe, now I find it humanly rational that it happens in that way, but did it occur to any of you at the time that there would be a time in the life of this country when there is a structure that makes an introspection about its soul that you would then give account about the details around the activities that were happening at the time?

FATHER MKHATSWA: We didn't really discuss that at the time nor did we even I would say think about it.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: ..... to go ahead of me I have no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: No a few short questions, thank you Chairperson.
 Father, one of the intimations made over the past few days during the cross-examination is that there will be a suggestion that it was not Mrs Mandela who was in control and responsible but in the sense of giving instructions, being a participator and a co-actor of the drama in your meeting with her as recounted in your statement did you feel that anyone else was in control besides her?

FATHER MKHATSWA: Absolutely not because as I pointed out earlier we had very clear and definite reason for going there so I don't really think that it even occurred to us that we should engage in all kinds of questions and so on.  Had our mandate been different I am sure probably we would have then formed a definite opinion on this matter.

MR RICHARD: I am not quite clear as to what your answer is as I understand it and please correct me, the assertion that I am making is that there was no one else in control besides her is correct?

FATHER MKHATSWA: As far as I am concerned we were dealing with Mrs Mandela and I had no reason to believe that someone else was controlling her and that would be my response to that.

MR RICHARD: And when it came to the factuality of the situation did you have any doubts at all that she was ill-informed and didn't know everything about what was being discussed?

FATHER MKHATSWA: My impression was that she definitely understood our discussion, the purpose of our visit and we had what I thought was a very fruitful dialogue with her.

MR RICHARD: And as to the background of the tension taking into custody, kidnapping, abduction of the young men and youth, she was fully aware of all material facts and you had no reasons to doubt that there was nothing that she did not know?