Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-18

DR BORAINE: We invite Patience Nobesuthu Sabatana, to the stand please. Good morning Mrs Sabatana. Will you please stand for the oath?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Mrs Sabatana as I understand it, you want to tell us a story about your brother who at  a very young age left South Africa for Tanzania.  Is that right? It's a very painful thing to have to do and it goes back a very long way but it's still very real for you and we feel deeply for you and in trying to assist you in helping you to try and tell that story about your brother, Mr Ntsiki Sandi will ask you some questions.  Is that alright?

MR SANDI: Mrs Sabatana, I realise that you have brought your statement in a written form and you have also typed it, is that so?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Did you take it to the office of the Commissioner?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes I did.

MR SANDI: Is that your statement?  And is it also the statement of Shakespeare Antoni, your brother?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Is he in the Transkei?
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PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Is he the one who is next to you now?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes he's the one.

MR SANDI: Briefly, if I can summarise your story, you will be able then to give a full account.  You state that your brother left the country in 1975.  Is that so?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Can you explain why he left?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes I can.  Mncedisi went away in 1975 between August and September.  He left the place whilst attending school at Zweletemba in Kingwilliamstown.  During that period Charles Sebe came with a list of the lists of children.  They were 15 in number and he said they went to Tanzania.  They went to establish homes there.  Two weeks after he came, security forces came from Cambridge and visited my mother whom they asked the whereabouts of her son. My mother said that he was at school, she didn't give the information that Charles was here to the security officers.  The people came here and asked frequently, and my mother insisted that the child was at school.  This continued for several years, and we didn't hear anything about what happened, but the security forces kept on visiting us.
 I think it was in 1980, the security officers composed of black people came here.  Then when they saw that my mother was afraid, they said she must not fear, they are doing their job there. At some stage my mother began to feel very ill.  She was an invalid because she was disturbed by this.  She suffered a stroke in 1987 and her face was disfigured until 1990 when she died in February.
 I was the survivor and then there was a person who came EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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from my place who told me that Mncedisi is still alive.  He said he saw him in 1978.  He said there was a meeting in Tanzania and he saw the child.  I was happy to learn that he was still alive because we were afraid that there were people coming.  Although he was not coming back, some of the that were in exile were aware that he was still alive.  I was always hoping that any day he may come in and return from exile. In 1994 I received card which I'm showing to you.  It says they were at a meeting in Tanzania.
 As I last saw him a very long time ago I doubted his face.  They showed me that he was in the first row and is the one with the cap on.  Why he used a hat was because he was burned while still very young.

MR SANDI: Please Mrs Sabatana, can I just ask who is the person who said he saw your brother?  Is he still around?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes but I cannot say where exactly he is.

MR SANDI: When was it when he saw your brother in 1978?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: I can say it's after my mother had already died.

MR SANDI: Is it when the people in exile were coming back?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: In other words, this photograph that you show us, was it the photograph taken during the meeting in Tanzania?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes it is so.

MR SANDI: Before this photo came, can you mark who he is, because I understand that there are so many people in that hut, have you made a mark on the photograph to identify him?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Is that your brother?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.
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MR SANDI: What did your elder brother do when he saw this photograph?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: When I received this photo I went to the Transkei to show my other brother this photograph and showed him that Mncedisi was on this photograph.

MR SANDI: Continue, we are listening.

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: My brother made a photostat of this and he brought the card back.

MR SANDI: In other words ever since Welcome Mncedisi Sabatana left, that is the person that we are talking about?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes it is.

MR SANDI: Did he ever write?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: No he didn't write, he didn't phone.

MR SANDI: Did you hear for the first time from this person that you said informed you that he is alive?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes, after my mother died I learned about the fact that my brother is still alive. It was the first time.

MR SANDI: Did you make any enquiries or investigations about this, because I realise that your brother was a member of the Pan Africanist Congress, you said so?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Did you make enquiries about what happened from this organisation?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes my brother did that.

MR SANDI: How did they make investigations?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: My brother went to the lawyer, and this was a Pan African Congress member, to put the case forward.  That lawyer was Zuma.

MR SANDI: Did he go to the lawyer named Mr Zuma?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes.
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MR SANDI: Zuma is in an office, he is not a lawyer.

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: I'm surprised because in this letter it is said he is in the offices which are in the Transkei.

MR SANDI: What did he say?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: He said there will be a meeting which will be in Ncobo.  He said he will take this photo and show them and he confirmed that when he showed the photo, the people who were amongst them, there was a boy who knew about my brother.  He could identify him on the photograph.

MR SANDI: I just want to make sure that I'm following what you are saying very well.  Did Mr Zuma take this photo and show it to somebody who was able to identify Mncedisi?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes it is so.

MR SANDI: Not that Mr Zuma took the photo and identified him?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: No he didn't know and he couldn't identify him?

MR SANDI: I'm still listening about the investigations that you did together with the members of the organisation. Did you say that there was somebody who could identify him?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes, that person could.

MR SANDI: Where did they say Mncedisi is?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: They didn't say anything, but this person just said to Mr Zuma, he knows this person, identifying him on the photograph?

MR SANDI: When was it that they were communicating with Mr Zuma?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: It was March 1996.

MR SANDI: What were they last saying to Mr Zuma? What did Mr Zuma say is going to happen?
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PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: He said he'll go to his party which is the organisation.

MR SANDI: Are they would hold a meeting, is that what you mean?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: Yes he said they were going to make investigations about all these incidents which have taken place.

MR SANDI: When did he say these will take place?

PATIENCE NOBSUTHU SABATANA: He said at the end of March.

MR SANDI: When did you see him?