Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No.  Another thing is I will never lie and say this is what happened because I want you to believe what I say as lies.  I never say that this happened, whereas it never happened.  I must tell the right thing, the truth, something that I know very well that it's something that took place, I mustn't do that just because I want - I mustn't mislead you just because I want to gain your trust.

MR MALAN: Okay, let's not argue this.  I can't see what that could benefit you and I agree with you.  You said you found his ID on him.  At what stage did you find the ID?  After you had killed him?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Where did he carry his ID?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Here on this upper pocket.

MR MALAN: Did he have a jacket on?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No.

MR MALAN: Was it a shirt?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: This two piece suits that are normally used by the mechanics.

MR MALAN: A kind of overall suit?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: When you beat him up, didn't you take off his clothes?  When you hit him with a cane, with a fishing rod?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, we wanted to get his buttocks because he wouldn't feel the pain if he was properly dress, therefore we had to expose his buttocks so that we can beat his flesh.

MR MALAN: Didn't you also take off his shirt, the top of the piece?  You undressed him?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, not at all.

MR MALAN: And when you initially apprehended him, did you not search him for documents to get to his identification?  Why didn't you feel in his pockets for an ID or anything in his pockets?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No we did not do that because what he had in his hand was a firearm.

MR MALAN: No please Mr Ntshetha, the first thing you did was to disarm him.  The firearm was no threat.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

MR MALAN: I'm asking you, why did you not search his body, his person, for identification?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I did not see that as important at the time, because I had found this firearm, even the ID, I took it because I could see it inside his pocket and I took it in his pocket.

MR MALAN: And when did you burn his ID?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Just before he was put into the grave.  He got inside with this ID.

MR MALAN: And then just one last question here.  Was his heart taken out, cut out, or his ribs dislocated?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, that never happened.  Even the doctors failed to answer that.

MR MALAN: No I'm not asking you what the doctors failed, I'm asking you whether that happened.  You say no, it did not?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No, that never happened.

MR MALAN: Do you know that at the trial the two children gave evidence that the heart was indeed taken out, cut out?  Fano and Bekhani.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.  Yes, that was - yes they said so because they were left with my brother outside and this is what they used to surprise me because they didn't want me to be found not guilty, they wanted to get something that was going to suppress me.  I didn't put that in my heart because I know very well that that never happened.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, are you still proceeding with your evidence-in-chief, or does that conclude Mr Sinangwenye's evidence-in-chief?

MR PANDAY: That concludes his evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions to put to Mr Sinangwenye?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson, I have one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You must never specify Ms Mtanga because I will assume you have one question and then I'll take over only to find that I've interrupted and intercepted your cross-examination.

UNKNOWN: Thanks for the cautioning Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Mr Sinangwenye on page 7 of the bundle, we have a response from Mr Dlamini where he was asked by the Committee to respond to some questions and the question put to him was, what were the reasons for killing the victim and he stated that you had indicated that this person wanted to kill you and he further states that then later on we get that the deceased was not aiming to kill Lucky Ntshetha, he has a natural hatred for the deceased, meaning that  you had a natural hatred for the victim.  Do you know anything about this, which seems to have been rumour that this person was not here to kill you but you had hated the deceased.  Were you aware of this rumour?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Alright.  I heard him testifying to that effect, but I have this to ask.  How can you hate a person that you don't even know, seeing a person for the very first time?  How could that happen because I didn't even know the person, I was just seeing the person for the very first time?

UNKNOWN: Were you at any time aware of the rumour that this person was not there to kill you but you had known him and hated the person and that was the reason for him being killed?  Were you aware of such a rumour at any time?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I heard that yesterday, but I have one question.  How could it be possible for one to hate a person that he doesn't even know, seeing that person for the very first time, you hate that person to such an extent that you can even kill him?  This I can question on my mind, is that in our place where we stayed, as this person came to my home, why, what was he doing there in my premises with a firearm, because he knew very well that he was not supposed to come over to our side because we also couldn't go to Shayamoya, what is it that he was looking for in my premises?

UNKNOWN: Mr Ntshetha, when a question is put to you, don't answer a question with a question, rather answer, give answers to my questions directly, so that I can understand what exactly you're saying.  So are you saying you never knew the person, therefore you couldn't have hated him?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that is correct, because I didn't know that person, I just saw him for the first time, there was no reason for me to hate that person.  I don't know the reason.  Perhaps in that situation I would hate my brother because he was the one who was perpetrating or who was launching attacks all the time.  There was no reason for me to hate this person.  There was never a squabble between me and him.  I don't even know the surname.  He just saw me for the first time.  Even the Sinangwenye that he was talking about, he didn't even know, I'm the one who told him that:  "I am Sinangwenye, I am a brother to the person who had sent you".

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sinangwenye, you will recall that your evidence-in-chief alluded to the fact that after you had removed the deceased's eyes, you then threw them away to the veld.  You recall that?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now do you remember that Mr Dlamini, the applicant, gave evidence yesterday to the effect that the eyes were not thrown away, that they were left next to the body of the deceased.  Do you remember him saying that?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was he lying when he said that?  He said that as a fact.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: That never happened.  What I would like to state clearly is this.  He has applied for amnesty.  I am serving a very long sentence, 12 years in jail, it is possible that he's got a problem that he would get this amnesty and go out of the jail and leave me in prison.  Perhaps he is still fond of the idea that he is with me in jail, that is why he is actually implicating himself, whereas he is innocent.