Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: We used the same vehicle in more than one operation, consequently we spray-painted it in order to change it's appearance.

MR VISSER: Very well.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mbane would give a signal when the terrorists were with him in his vehicle.  The windows of his vehicle were tinted so that we could not see inside.  I think the signal was for him to switch on his indicator lights.  After Mbane arrived there and parked the car, he gave the signal after a short while.  We hit, but only to find that Khubeka was alone with Mbane in the car.  We arrested her and she was immediately removed from the car and taken to our vehicle, a Toyota panel van.
	These circumstances were not according to the plan.  It was our intention to arrest terrorists and all we had was the co-ordinator.  We had to make the best of the circumstances by following the alternative, which was to interrogate her in order to determine the hiding place of the terrorists as well as places where weapons were stored.  Ideally the purpose would be best achieved if we could win her favour by convincing her to work with us.
	I believed that nobody had observed the arrest.  We took her to the old railway police shooting range in Winkelspruit for interrogation.  At that stage we used the shooting range as an operational basis. There were ablution facilities and storage rooms.  indeed we would sleep there at night.  Some of the askaris also stayed there during their visit on this occasion.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, may I just interrupt you?  Was it a police station, a regulation police station, this place at Winkelspruit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, it was only a shooting range with storage and ablution facilities.

MR VISSER: There were no cells or case books or case registers which were kept there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No.

MR VISSER: Was it your own intention that Mrs Khubeka would later be taken under the normal circumstances of arrest in order to be recorded in a cell register and to be detained in a police station?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, the objective was to attempt to persuade her to co-operate with us and consequently we would not record her arrest at a police station.

MR VISSER: Therefore this was not a legal arrest, according to your intention?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No.

MR VISSER: Very well, please continue.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was already dusk when we arrived at the shooting range.  On the way to the camp she was still blindfolded so that she could not identify the situation of the place.

MR VISSER: Were her hands bound with a rope?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot recall whether she was ever bound.

MR VISSER: Can you recall a rope?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I cannot recall a rope.

MR VISSER: Would you have used a rope if you had wanted to bind her hands?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If I legally arrested a person, they would be cuffed but if it was a seizure action, I would have used masking tape which might have left marks on her hands or wrists.  On the way to the camp she was still blindfolded so that she could not recognise the situation of it.  We took her to a storage ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, just before I forget about it, Col Botha, when you took hold of Mrs Khubeka, when she was in the vehicle with Mr Mbane, was there anybody else in that vehicle?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It was just the two of them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was only the two of them.  After we had taken her into the storage room and seated her on the floor, she was still blindfolded but not bound.  I sent Maj du Preez to buy food for us, while the following members and I interrogated her.  It was Col Taylor, W/O Wasserman, Kassie van der Westhuizen, Joe Coetzer and Bossie Basson.

MR VISSER: You say that you interrogated her, would you be more specific?  We know that all of you were in the room and who of these persons that you have mentioned here specifically undertook the interrogation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, the interrogation was specifically led by Col Taylor and was mostly undertaken in Zulu.

MR VISSER: Very well, we will get to that in a moment.  Continue.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Other members, among others Lieut-Col Dave Baker were also present from time to time during the interrogation in order to hear what information she provided with regard to terrorists.

MR VISSER: W/O Wasserman will testify that he also was in and out of the room from time to time.  Is that possible?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, because as I have said, there were other members and I cannot recall precisely who went in and out of the room.

MR VISSER: Very well, continue.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Seeing as Col Taylor, Basson and van der Westhuizen could speak Zulu fluently, it wasn't necessary to have an interpreter there and Mbane and Radebe waited outside while she was being interrogated by us.  On the contrary, the place where they were seated was right next to the room where she was situated.  Col Taylor was actually the person who interrogated her.  The interrogation took place in Zulu.  	During his interrogation, Col Taylor hit Khubeka on her back with a sjambok.

MR VISSER: Please describe to the Committee your impression of this assault.  Was it serious, or how would you describe it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it was aimed more at emphasising the gravity of her detention and interrogation.  The fact that she was struck on the back with a sjambok was not intended to force her to provide information, because Taylor spoke Zulu and because of his presence, it was more to emphasise the necessity of her co-operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he hit her hard with this sjambok, or could you just describe the manner in which he hit her?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I would say yes, he hit her hard but the blows with the sjambok were not the type of blows which would be dealt to grievously injure the person, it was to indicate, I'm serious with what I'm asking you to do now.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was a normal sjambok, one of those long rubber sjamboks with beadwork at the end?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is my recollection of the sjambok.

MR LAX: How could he hit her hard and not hurt her?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I'm trying to describe that the degree of the blow was not to the extent that it was taken out and hit hard in comparison to a form of torture, it was more to indicate: "I'm hitting you in order to prove a serious point."

CHAIRPERSON: This is all your pure surmise or speculation, you didn't discuss Taylor's intentions with him.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, that is correct.  I'm simply describing the blow.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't actually know why he hit her or what his intentions were?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Visser, did he hit her once or several times, can you give an approximation of how many times he hit her with the sjambok?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, he would have put a question to her in Zulu and then she would have answered and then he would have put another question and then she would have answered and then he would have hit her and according to my recollection if it was 10 to 15 blows in totality, during the process of interrogation until her time of death, that would be my recollection of it.

MR VISSER: And just to clarify this for once and for all, what is your recollection of the length of this process, the interrogation and the assault from time to time, how long did it take?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: 15 to 20 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: If you're satisfied Mr Chairman, can we ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.