Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: When we left Zone 12 extension we ran short of ammunition, our firearms were empty.  We went to Zone 12 looking for ammunition.  It happened that we met with comrade Stanley at Hollywood Nightclub and we requested ammunition from him and he told us that he did not have and immediately we told him as to what was happening.  He then said to us we should see to it that we finish with these people and leave no trace because should there be any trace we would find ourselves in danger.

MS THABETE: So are you saying that you met Mr Stanley by coincidence, not that you had gone there to look for him?

MR LAX: Sorry, Ms Thabete, he made it very clear that he went there to get ammunition and while doing that they told him about what was happening, that's his evidence.  And then he said what they said he said.

MS THABETE: Oh, I thought he had said that they had gone to look for ammunition and then they met Stanley and decided to ask ammunition from him.  Maybe he can clarify that.

MR LAX: Please go ahead.

MS THABETE: Would you like to clarify whether you left to look for Stanley or you met him on the way when you were going to look for the bullets?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: On our way to Zone 12 it was our intention to go to him to ask for bullets.  We wanted Stanley and Mabusa.  I happened that we only found him because he was working at Hollywood Nightclub.
	He was the leader of the ANC Youth League, Zone 12 at that time.

MS THABETE: So it wasn't to get them to come with you, it was just to ask for the bullets, is that what you are saying?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes, and report what happened.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I may just come in here.
	So in fact you went to Stanley for two reasons, you went to get ammunition and you went to report to him about what was happening, is that correct, do I understand you correctly?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: When you had reported to Stanley about what was happening, did he say anything to you in response?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS THABETE: What did he say?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I think I briefly explained that Stanley ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just answer the question.  You keep saying you briefly explained.  Every time you say that we end of wasting time.  Just answer the question, okay, you'll save us all a lot of time.  We wouldn't ask you the question if it wasn't unclear.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: He said we should make sure that these people are dead and there would be no evidence because should it be discovered that we were the people responsible for their death we would be in danger.

MS THABETE: Mr Mkhwanazi, I would like to just go back a little bit, I omitted to ask you this, why was it necessary for you to go and do a report to Mr Stanley about what was happening?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We did not want to do thing haphazardly, we wanted it to be known so that should it surface that we were responsible, it should be known as to why we did it.  That is why we reported to him.  We reported to him because he was the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League.

MS THABETE: If he had said that you shouldn't do anything to them, would you have done so, would you have followed his instructions?

CHAIRPERSON: Come again, Ms Thabete, I didn't get your question.

MS THABETE: If he had said to you, don't do anything to them, would you have done exactly that and followed his instructions?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

MS THABETE: So you didn't really need his approval, is that what you are saying?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We were just reporting, we did not want his response.  We did not want his suggestion as to continue with the act or not.

MS THABETE: My last question is, you say - I asked this earlier on but I didn't make a follow-up, you had said that you heard from Hapile Ndumo before you shot her, that she had participated in the Boipatong Massacre which was on the 17th of June 1992, are you aware that during this period, or rather, are you aware that on the 17th of June Ms Hapile Ndumo was actually arrested?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No, I do not know that.

MS THABETE: Well according to my instructions she was in jail, she was in prison at that time, so she couldn't have participated in the Boipatong Massacre.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Did she tell you that?

MS THABETE: Those are my instructions from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How can you say that, you know she is dead.  How can she be told by a person who is dead.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I understood her to say she was told or she told her that she was in prison at that time, now maybe I did not understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: She is representing the interest of Ms Ndumo's relatives and she has been instructed that around June 1992, Ms Ndumo was in jail.  Do you or do you not know that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I do not know that.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Madam Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabete.  Before we put questions as members of the Committee, do you have any re-examination, Mr Moloisane?

MS MOLOISANE: I have nothing in re-examination, Madam Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mkhwanazi?

MR LAX: That's Chairperson.
	You gave us the impression when you were testifying in chief that you knew the deceased's coming and goings pretty well, you lived a few doors away from her and you used to watch her place regularly and you never saw her around, is that correct?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Yes, you're unable to tell us that she might have been in jail in June 1992.  Did you really watch her so well that you can say you knew everything about where she was and where she wasn't?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I was not actually following her, but what I meant was when I got out of my home it was        possible to see
her home and she was not at home always.

MR LAX: Yes, well people can be not at home for a whole rang of reasons, which is another issue I'm coming to.  They can be not at home because they've gone to visit relatives in another place, does that mean they are living at Kwamadala Hostel if that's the case, just because they're not at home?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

MR LAX: Well you said you never saw them around the township and therefore you assumed they were spying for the IFP, that was your evidence.  Is that not correct?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR LAX: But what I'm saying to you is there are any number of reasons why they may not have been at home that would have nothing to do with the IFP, isn't that correct?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: According to my knowledge and according to what I heard she was at the camps of the IFP.

MR LAX: Which other camps was she at?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Madala Hostel.

MR LAX: That's one place, what other places was she at?  You said she was at the camps (in the plural).

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They did not have a fixed place, they even stayed at the hostels around Vereeniging.

MR LAX: You said she was at IFP camps, what other IFP camps was she at?  Just answer my question.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: When they were at the hotels they would be in a group, they slept there in a group.  At Madala they were in a group.

MR LAX: Who was this group?  Who were the other members of this group?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: There were many.  It means they came from different areas, Zone 11, Zone 13, Zone 7.  I would not mention the names of others because I did not know them by names.

MR LAX: Did you see them in a group with other IFP members?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Are you referring to Hapile?

MR LAX: Well who else would I be referring to?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No, no.