Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

UNKNOWN: And how soon was that after you joined, you said?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I think it took about two to three months before I went out with the groups.

UNKNOWN: And what were you doing once you had people pointed out to you by your askaris?  What was happening to these people, would you tell the Committee?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Some were being arrested, but some were not arrested, because some other guys did not want to give up.  They fought and the guys, we shot back.

UNKNOWN: Were you involved in any of these incidents where people were killed?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was involved in the Guguletu one, yes, but not on the border region.

UNKNOWN: I will be coming to the Guguletu one in a moment.  I am just dealing with the history of your position at Vlakplaas.  When you were patrolling the border you say that some of the comrades, you say, would not co-operate with you, they fought and they got killed?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, I mean when we were doing those patrols, sometimes when we meet or when it happens that we meet the MK guys, if they do not, sometimes they did not just give up, they fought for their lives.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct that towards the middle of the 1980's, you can tell us what your perception is, toward the middle of the 1980's one began to see increased levels of repression coming from covert sources like Vlakplaas?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: In the 1980's ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: The mid 1980's.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The mid-eighties, things were happening, but we were not told they were, those were covert operations.  The only people who knew about the covert operations were those who were taking part in it.

UNKNOWN: Are you saying that you were not involved yourself, apart from the Guguletu 7, in any other covert operations in the mid-1980's?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was, I was, I had some, I did took part in a couple of them.  One like the Krugersdorp abduction of ... (end of tape 3B) which I have already applied for amnesty and the other one from the Swaziland abduction of which, also, I have applied for amnesty.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct that despite the fact, according to your evidence, you were not necessarily involved in all of the covert operations that were taking place at the time, were you aware that human rights abuses were occurring at Vlakplaas?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was aware.

UNKNOWN: Were you aware that some of these abuses included torturing people?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was quite aware.

UNKNOWN: You said in your evidence in-chief that you participated in the torture of people as well?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Would you tell the Committee specifically which incidents you remember being involved in torturing people?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not remember very, quite well all the people, the victims of whom which I tortured during the years.

UNKNOWN: Can you give the Committee an idea of the numbers of people that we are talking about here?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: If I can talk about numbers, I can talk about eight to nine.

UNKNOWN: Eight to nine people whom you tortured?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is good.

UNKNOWN: Did any of these people survive your torture methods?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Luckily, so far, they, mine survived.

UNKNOWN: Were you involved in the killing of any people and could you give the Committee, once again, the numbers involved, apart from the Guguletu 7?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was not involved in any other killing without the Guguletu killings.

UNKNOWN: Now, you have said in your application and also in your evidence that you had never ever received any rewards of a financial nature.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I mentioned that, I mentioned the money that I received, R1 000,00, after this operation of Guguletu, but previous to that, with other operations, I have never received anything, not even a medal.

UNKNOWN: So, there was no financial advantage to you in pursuing the orders of your superiors?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, there was not.  The only thing, I thought I was doing it for the country.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps you can explain to the Committee how killing people and torturing them advanced, in your view, the or was to the benefit of the country?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Well, torturing people is the most used and it was the most used method in the security establishment of obtaining evidence or of obtaining information from any suspect or suspected guerrillas and it was benefitting the security branch, because they could gather more information in a very short time.

UNKNOWN: You had obviously heard of your colleagues at Vlakplaas who were involved in killing people at well?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, that came to my attention also.

UNKNOWN: How did that advance the cause?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not think it advanced any certain cause, so far, because all what they did, they even killed their own people to silence them, so I do not think it advanced anything.

UNKNOWN: You will concede and you have readily conceded already in your evidence that the evidence that you gave at the Weaver Trial and the evidence that you had given at the inquest subsequently were incorrect, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: They were incorrect, because nothing of the stories came out.  Jimmy Mbane did not come out and the stories that people were shot with their hands up, these stories were not there.  They were only led by witnesses and it was disputed from the police side.

UNKNOWN: So, you readily admit that you lied to those, in those judicial proceedings for your own interests?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I lied to those judiciary proceedings not for my own interest.  I lied, because that was the standard practice of the farm, like the MacNalty case, the Harams Commission.  They were told all lies all of them.  Like Dirk Coetzee and Mufamelo wanted to talk, they said Mufamelo was lying and on and on.

UNKNOWN: Yes, we are talking, sorry, carry on.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was just telling the Commission that to lie on a certain Commission was a, was something which was standard practice at the farm.  Even the big guys on top were there to cover everybody.  Let us take the case of Mufamelo when he tried to talk about Mxenge and MacNalty was, they lied to MacNalty, they lied to the Harams Commission.

UNKNOWN: Is there any reason why the Amnesty Committee should believe you now?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I mean, things like this did not get, they were not, they did not come afore at first, but now, I mean, what I am telling the Committee now is in, what they did not know that it, things like that thing did happen of what I did know.  I am referring now to the Guguletu 7.

UNKNOWN: Do you realise that you have much to gain by applying for amnesty now?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Chairman, my coming here to apply for amnesty, I do not want to gain nothing.  All what I want to do is I just want the people to forgive me for what I did.  I am talking especially to the families, the relatives and the friends of the victims.  That is what I want to gain from them, that is all, forgiveness and reconciliation.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps you can help us with your incident specifically, your contribution to the, what has been referred to as the massacre at that intersection.  It does not appear anywhere from what you have said thus far, that you hesitated for a moment when you were asked to shoot that person.  Can you explain that to us?