Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-03

MR POTGIETER:  Now on this particular day when the police arrived at your home, they seemed to concentrate their search around your room.  The rest of the house was just given a very, a cursory search?

WITNESS:  Yes the house had 12 rooms so it is impossible to search a house in such a short space of time.  They didn't even search in the ceiling.

MR POTGIETER:  So they made a very thorough search of your room?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Whilst the police were busy at your house, what took place outside?  What were the people doing?

WITNESS:  They sang freedom songs and they were toyi-toiing to show the South African Police that they were stupid.

MR POTGIETER:  So what actually happened is that there was a group of people who had gathered at the house and the crowd demonstrated that they were dissatisfied with the police's conduct, and they started toyi-toiing and singing freedom songs.

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Now what did the police say, what was their explanation, what were they actually looking for at the house?

WITNESS:  They didn't say anything, they didn't even show us a warrant.  They just burst into the house and just took Ambrose to the front door and then they entered the house with Ambrose.

MR POTGIETER:  And they just started searching the house?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Now the police that you refer to, were they from Kakamas?

WITNESS:  No, these were members of the Upington police.  I can't really say because some of them were in camouflage uniform and, or plain clothes, I can't actually say where they were from.

MR POTGIETER:  But most of them were from Upington.

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  The policeman who started shooting, was it only the one policeman?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Do you know that policeman?

WITNESS:  I can't remember so far back but if I see him I will know it's him.  I will be able to identify him.

MR POTGIETER:  You say he had one of these pump-action shotguns?

WITNESS:  That is right.

MR POTGIETER:  Did the crowd do anything other than toyi-toiing and singing freedom songs, was there stoning, stone throwing or other forms of violence?

WITNESS:  No.

MR POTGIETER:  Did anybody constitute a threat to this policeman who had started shooting?

WITNESS:  No.

MR POTGIETER:  Was there any reason for him to start shooting?

WITNESS:  No, I think he just panicked.

MR POTGIETER:  In what sort of condition was this policeman?

WITNESS:  When we arrived at the police station for the blood analysis they refused.  It was impossible for us to see whether they were actually under the influence of liquor.  They didn't react to our requests that they be tested for alcohol content.

MR POTGIETER:  So you said that they should test the policemen's blood.  Why, why did you ask for that?

WITNESS:  Because some of them smelled of alcohol.

MR POTGIETER:  Now you are referring to the policeman busy searching the house?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  And the one who started shooting?

WITNESS:  Well the moment he finished shooting he got back into the Kombi and what I found very strange is that in front of our house was a church and he walked around the church and there was no threat, there was no reason for him to walk down there and he just started shooting at people sitting on their stoeps and children just walking down the road.  He just shot at them.

MR POTGIETER:  Was there a court case after this incident?

WITNESS:  Yes sir.

MR POTGIETER:  What happened?

WITNESS:  There were 29 or 30 of us and we went to Kimberley.  I was not called.  Most of the people weren't called.  I think they called one or two people during the court proceedings.  It was held in Kimberley, the court case.

MR POTGIETER:  Was it the magistrate's court or the supreme court?

WITNESS:  I don't know.

MR POTGIETER:  The policeman who started shooting, was he the accused person in that case?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  What happened to him?

WITNESS:  He was acquitted.

MR POTGIETER:  Was that the only court case relating to this incident as far as you know?

WITNESS:  Yes.

MR POTGIETER:  Were any members of the riot police present during the searching of the house?

WITNESS:  Some of them were wearing sort of greyish uniforms.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much Andre.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that you and your colleagues were concerned that the views of the community should be taken seriously and we hope that this is something you would want to continue even now, now that we have a democratic dispensation because sometimes having got there we begin to forget why we got there.  We struggled in order for our people to know that they are important, they matter, their views are taken seriously.  We would want to look again at court records to find out what actually did take place because often it appears as if there was a kind of collusion between the security forces and our courts and that is why often there seems to have been a miscarriage of justice it appears.  We would like to be able to look at that and this is one of the reasons why we are asking that the legal profession should come and make a submission to the Commission that the medical profession, the judiciary, so that we can try and get a clear picture whether people in these various institutions who used their position to uphold an unjust system, did they do things which would encourage the violation of people's rights and many in the underprivileged, the oppressed sections would say that there was no question at all that apartheid permeated our entire society and affected all sorts of things and we need to be able to give details of this inter-connectedness but we are glad you were there in the dark days and now we are in the light and you have helped with your colleagues to help us to come into the light and we must preserve that light and not allow it to be put out because nowadays we sometimes see people who have forgotten what it cost us to put on the light that has destroyed the darkness and they treat the light as if it was something cheap and we need to remember that the price that has been paid is a very, very heavy price.  Thank you.