Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: oloured areas wherewe established daughter-churches, some of them became constituent sister-churchesand became independent from our help and became self-sufficient churches. Wenever saw them in any other context but as

<UNKNOWN>: hristian churches and they happenedto be in areas which were disadvantaged and we were fully aware of that andour outreach to them in the first instance, was for the gospel, but we realisedtoo that you can't reach out to these areas without having a social obligationalso.

<UNKNOWN>: nd how did you go about fulfilling that social obligation?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: In the Khayelitsha outreach, we commenced by established a crechefacility during the week. The same hall was used on Sundays for services. Duringthe week also we provided sewing classes at that facility for the women of thearea.

<UNKNOWN>: nd I understand that you had two affiliated churchesin the Khayelitsha area?

<UNKNOWN>: t that stage we had one, we nowhave a daughter-church in Mandela Park.

<UNKNOWN>: t that stage already we had the ground,but through lack of funds we hadn't yet been able to start the building work.

<UNKNOWN>: uilding work has commenced recently and in fact I think it must be completedby now.

<UNKNOWN>: nd that is in Mandela Park and that is a more permanent feature. Nothingin Site

<UNKNOWN>: can be permanent, you are only allowed to erect timber and iron orshack type of dwellings there. Excuse me, could I have some water please, thankyou. Please carry on.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I understand also that there wassome interchange between the churches and that people from the various churchesattended services at the other churches forming part of the St James group ifwe can term it that?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: That is quite correct, we regularly,every Sunday people from our church would go out to Khayelitsha to participatein the services that were being held there.

<UNKNOWN>: nd similarly from time to time,we would bring the parishioners or the children from the Khayelitsha outreachto our church to expose our people to them again.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman,can I just ask you, this church is it situated in what at some stage in ourhistory would have been described as a White area?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: The StJames church?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Yes, I would say thatwould be a factual position at one stage.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you say now thecomposition is 50-50 and at the time of the incident it was about 35/40 percentpeople of colour?

<UNKNOWN>: orrect.

<UNKNOWN>: nd if I keepon going back, it seems to me the percentage would be less and less, am I right?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Well, let me answer it to you like this. The church started inabout 1968/1969 with five children. I was not there at the time. I can't answerfor that.

<UNKNOWN>: ut certainly when I joined the church in 1979, they were alreadya mixed church, but certainly the percentage was not anywhere near 35 percentat the time, it was probably in the vicinity of about 10 percent people of colourin 1979. The church does not have borders, it is not a church with a predeterminedborder that says this is the church for Kenilworth, Wynberg, we were alwaysa church without borders and attracting people that were interested to hearthe gospel. Friends brought friends.

CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate that, butmy question then is, if I were to ask you whether going back with history with50 percent, 35 percent and I keep on going back, if I were to ask you was therea time when it was 100 percent White, you wouldn't not be able to answer thatquestion?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: That is correct, I wouldn't, I wasn't there.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Would it be correct also to say Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman, that it was to someextent by reason of the application of the Group

<UNKNOWN>: reas

<UNKNOWN>: ct that in the pastmore people of colour could not attend the church?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: No.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE You would not say that?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: No. No, our churchwas always open, we never had any - from what I understand from our leadership,that prior to me joining, that there was never any discrimination practised.I understand at the time too, and it is a very dark time of our history, thatthere was still an area close by to the St James church, which was a so-called

<UNKNOWN>: oloured area and I think it would be reasonable to suppose, although I can'tsay for sure, that some of those people might well have attended St James church.

<UNKNOWN>: ut that would be conjecture from my side.

<UNKNOWN>: ut there wasnever any church policy contrary to that?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: In fact the churchpolicy was that of being open.

<UNKNOWN>: nd that was from day one?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: From day one. That is what Mr - Judge if I may be permitted toadd, that is one of the considerations when I became a

<UNKNOWN>: hristian that attractedme to this particular congregation, I came from an

<UNKNOWN>: frikaans background, I attendedthe Dutch Reformed

<UNKNOWN>: hurch and I was unhappy with the political connection ofthe Dutch Reformed

<UNKNOWN>: hurch and that was part of my motivation to go to this particularchurch.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Now, you say or I understand that there was about1 300 people in the church that evening?

<UNKNOWN>: pproximately.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: nd what sort of age groups was it made up of?

<UNKNOWN>: ll age groups from - in the evenings children as young as six years old wouldcome to church. We don't provide creche facilities in the evening, so approximatelyage five, six years old, right up to 80 and plus where they are still alive,it is customary that the children would leave at the commencement of the serviceafter the singing of the first hymn or during that time, to a childrens' programme.

<UNKNOWN>: hildren up to the age of about 12 years old.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Would youdescribe it largely as a family service then, would that be accurate or not?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: The evenings is always a gospel outreach service, where we preachthe message of salvation of Jesus

<UNKNOWN>: hrist as the Son of God.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did you, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman, have forewarning of the attack in the sense of seeinganyone reconnoitre the church previous to it?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: No, I haveno knowledge of that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: No knowledge of that?

<UNKNOWN>: ould you describethe attack itself?

<UNKNOWN>: lmost halfway through the service, thelast song item was taking place before the main preaching of the Word was goingto take place, and almost at the end of the song item, the door burst open andI saw two gunmen, or two people come in, it all happened very quickly. I sawand heard shots being fired. I saw a grenade flying through the air and I -it was at that point that I ducked down together with the other people in mypew.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Where was your wife at that time?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: My wife was sitting right at the door where the perpetrators burst in. We weresitting separate from one another because of the large contingent of Russiansin order to spread ourselves amongst them, I did not mention that my wife andI actually headed up the outreach ministry to the Russians. We started it bythe grace of God.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What was the reaction of the congregationto the attack?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Immediately at the time?

<UNKNOWN>: t the time of the attack?