Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

UNKNOWN: not De Kock.  And furthermore I would like to say that the people who worked with me, did not look 
anything like the people on the video.  I refer to Colonel Venter, he was the type of man who worked with 
me.  
	Furthermore, parties as the one on the beach, would not have been, never have been allowed in 
my time.  I would also like to say that De Kock was transferred to me from Koevoet, I did not want him 
there, but I was given an instruction to take him.
	Those type of things never happened under my command and it would never have happened 
under my command, I kept my
foot on De Kock's throat and such things would never have happened under my command.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, as far as Dirk Coetzee's evidence is concerned that he was like God 
over there and he could do as he pleased, what is your comment on that?

UNKNOWN: It did not work like that Mr Chairman.  Dirk Coetzee exaggerated as far as that is 
concerned, that is not how we operated.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Very well then.  Brigadier, what is said there by Craig Williamson with 
regards to the involvement of the Generals in Vlakplaas, that what happened at Vlakplaas happened with 
the knowledge of the Generals, do you identify with that?

UNKNOWN: Could you please repeat that?

ADV DU PLESSIS: What Craig Williamson said on the video with regards to the involvement of 
the Generals in Vlakplaas and the fact that they knew and also the higher authorities, the fact that they 
knew about the operations of Vlakplaas, do you identify with that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do, they all knew what was happening 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 87

UNKNOWN: at Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: When you say "all" do you mean every single General in the police force or are 
you limiting yourself to a limited number?

UNKNOWN: I would limit it to the Generals in the Security Branch, the Commissioner of South 
African Police, who were all members of the Security Branch before.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, at some stage there were also photographs of the members posing 
for photographs with corpses laying around as if they were very proud of what they had done, was that 
your approach at the time, did you allow such things?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER

<UNKNOWN>: S BY

ADV DU PLESSIS: .

HASSAN MALL: Whose decision was it to transfer De Kock from Koevoet to Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: As I understood it, De Kock had been such a cause of trouble in Oshakati by fighting 
that they had no option, his Commanding Officer there requested that he be transferred and Brigadier 
Schoon instructed me to take him in.

HASSAN MALL: Was there a time when you and Dirk Coetzee were together at Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: No, Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: Precisely how would reports of what was happening at Vlakplaas be conveyed to 
headquarters?

UNKNOWN: It would have been done orally, Chairperson and would very seldom have been done in 
writing.

HASSAN MALL: How would instructions to Vlakplaas or to 
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GAUTENG: 88

UNKNOWN: you be conveyed from headquarters?

UNKNOWN: Also orally.

HASSAN MALL: Would there be an intermediary between the people that were going to give you 
instructions and yourself or would the instructions be conveyed to you directly?

UNKNOWN: To me directly, Chairperson.  To me directly, Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: You were asked about the video that we've looked at and in particular what I 
want to ask you about is a speech made by Mr P.W. Botha.  You remember that?

UNKNOWN: ;	Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Is it correct that the video we have just been shown, consisted largely of 
extracts from earlier news
reports, matters of that nature?

UNKNOWN: It appeared to me as such Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: That the speech that we heard from Mr P.W. Botha was a speech he made in 
the 1980's, not something that was made for this video?

UNKNOWN: I do not know when he made it.

JUDGE WILSON: It was in the past, something you, all of us would have heard many years ago?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And ...(indistinct) at that time?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And the second matter which is not of the same relevance is these parties on 
the beach we're showed, there had been frequent complaints in the Natal Parks Board about a certain 
military place down on the coast there, is that where the parties were?

UNKNOWN: It seems to me that it was at a house on the north coast.
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GAUTENG: 88

ADV DE JAGER: Brigadier Cronje, the reports you said were done verbally to head office, were these 
done during regular meetings or were they done at any time when an incident took place or how often were 
these reports submitted?

UNKNOWN: The way in which we operated was that I had four divisions which worked in different 
regions.  One for example in Natal, one in the Eastern Transvaal, the other in the Northern Transvaal and 
so forth, and depending on what took place there at the end of the month those people would come back 
and report to me and I would report to my head, Brigadier Schoon.

ADV DE JAGER: So it was not a report made at a formal meeting?

UNKNOWN: No, Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there any agreements, standing
agreements where strategic reports would be made?

UNKNOWN: Every morning Brigadier Schoon would attend the San Hedrin and I would - what I 
reported back to him, he would report back to this San Hedrin.

MR CURRIN: We have no questions at this stage, thank you.

UNKNOWN: No questions Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to ask two questions 
pertaining to the questions that the Committee asked.  
	Brigadier, the parties which they showed here, I believed that they were held at Sodwana, was it 
during Colonel De Kock's time, do you know during which period these parties took place?

UNKNOWN: I do not know during which period they took place, but they had to have been during his 
period.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Would Captain Mentz be able to give us a bit PRETORIA 
HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 89

UNKNOWN: more detail?

UNKNOWN: I believe so.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I would just like to put it to you for the Committee's benefit, that Captain 
Mentz will say that those parties were held in the 1990's, so that was long after you had left Vlakplaas.  
Brigadier Cronje, would you say that it is possible that the fact that you were not mentioned in this video is 
simply because you were not involved in sensational incidents such as De Kock and them, could you just 
comment on that?

UNKNOWN: I suspect that that is the reason why I am not mentioned as a Commanding Officer.
WITNESS EXCUSED.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I be allowed to say
something?  Can you see me, I am a bit far away?

HASSAN MALL: ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, first of all we must place ourselves on record before the Committee.  Acting 
for certain people who have applied for amnesty and we have some points which we wish to make in 
regard to the evidence and particularly Section 19(4) notices.  We don't want to interrupt at this stage, the 
reason why I am addressing you right now is ...(intervention)

HASSAN MALL: I would rather you tell me who you are appearing for.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, for record purposes, my name is L.J.L. Visser, I am instructed by 
Wagenaar, Muller & Du Plessis.  
	May I hand up to you a document, Mr Chairman, which will summarise what I wish to say to you 
right now and part of the reason why I wish to hand it up to you is you will 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR VISSER: 90