Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that this application was meant to create a false alibi for you.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is not correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now have a look at B 61.  If you look at the column which says 'Number of days', it is the third column from the left. Do you see that column?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct, I have the document in front of me.

ADV MEMANI: According to that column it is the longest period of leave that you took at once, can you see that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is so yes.

ADV MEMANI: And if you look at B 60, you only applied for leave on the 9th of December 1988.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: The 8th of December 1988 I signed the document, the application for leave.

ADV MEMANI: And it was approved on the 14th of December 1988.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: That was just about three weeks before the murder of Mr Venter.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is so yes.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it unusual for people to take long leave and go on holiday...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: It's about six weeks before the murder.  Isn't it about six weeks before the murder when it was approved because the murder was as far as I could recollect on the 2nd of February and if it's been approved on the 14th of December, it leaves two weeks in December and four weeks at least in January.

ADV MEMANI: That is indeed so Mr Chairman.  And this application was made only six weeks before you went on leave?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct yes.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it rather unusual that you would have applied for leave so soon to the date of your leave?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: There is nothing strange about this.  Usually at the beginning of the year a tentative list is drawn up of the intended holidays of the various members during school holidays.  The actual leave would only be approved on the day you go on holiday.  There is no reason why application should be made long before hand.  Usually a month beforehand is required for processing.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Erasmus, on what date did you leave for Hartenfontein?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Do you mean Hartenbos?

ADV MEMANI: Hartenbos yes.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I can't remember the specific day, I know we first went to the farm and afterwards we went to the coast.  I can't remember the specific date.

ADV MEMANI: On what day did you leave for the coast?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I can't remember the specific day.

ADV MEMANI: On what date did you come back from the coast?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Well I think it was about two or three days before the end of my leave.  That would have been around about the 7th or the 8th.

ADV MEMANI: And on what date did you come back to Bloemfontein?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: We came back to Bloemfontein a day or two before I started work again; on the 10th, possibly the Friday and I possibly started on that Monday and I accept that we probably arrived here on the Saturday or the Sunday.  It would have been after the 10th then, possibly the 11th or the 12th that we arrived in Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: What made you recall that you came back just a day or two before you started working?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman we were married.  We had no children and we expanded our leave as far as possible and just before we came to Bloemfontein to start our work we visited my parents in law in Aliwal North. I remember that.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Erasmus, you don't recall when you left Bloemfontein, you don't recall when you left for the coast and all the things that you are telling us now, were not put to us or put to Mr Ngo or any of the other witnesses while your version was being put to them.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman from Bloemfontein I went to the farm, I went to the coast, I went to Aliwal North and I returned to Bloemfontein.  The specific dates of each departure, I can't remember those in detail, but the fact is I was not in Bloemfontein when this incident occurred.

ADV MEMANI: What I also find interesting is that you had your home address, isn't it?  Isn't King Edward Road your home address?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That was my home address at that stage.

ADV MEMANI: And I find it interesting that you included it as an address where you could be contacted during the holidays, your leave.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't see anything strange regarding that.

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that you put that date there because you knew that you were not going to be away from your home for the entire period of your leave.  That for a substantial period of time, or for some material time, you would be available at your home address.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is not true Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: And that is why Mr Ngo saw you at Fontein on the day when he was instructed to go and kill Mr Venter.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Ngo is not telling the truth Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now if you look at page B 61, on the first entry the last column is signed by a certain colonel, who is that colonel?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: This application is kept by the divisional commander, not by the security branch office; the officers who signed here were officers attached to the divisional commissioner's office.  I don't know who they were.

ADV MEMANI: And if you skip the second signature and look at the rest of the signatures you can see that the next four signatures are signed by a certain major.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is so Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: And another part is signed by a brigadier and later on a major again signs and lastly a brigadier signed.  But if you look at the second one, the second signature, one can't make out the signature, it doesn't match any other signature and nor does one see any rank there.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Well I don't know who signed there.

ADV MEMANI: But I'm sure that as a person who was working there you would have known the people who would have signed these things as entered.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman there were many officers involved at the divisional commander's office, they were involved with the administrative functions.  This leave form was completed at the Security Branch but the divisional commander had to approve that and the processing of that and all those records were kept at the Divisional Commander's office.

MR VISSER: To be of assistance to my learned friend, if he turns back to page 60 Mr Chairman and he looks at the signature and the rank in paragraph 9 where it talks about approved, perhaps he should just compare that signature to the one at page 61 Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: It appears to be the same.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Erasmus, I want to refer you to the letter dated 7 November '85, I think it's P 62; now this is a letter dealing with the employment history of Ngo, it says application for employment, M Ngo in Afrikaans.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I have the document in front of me.

ADV MEMANI: I read the letter earlier on and I tried to choose a paragraph that I could read to you but I was unable to do so.  If members of the Committee could bear with me I'll read the letter to you.  It says that
'abovementioned person was brought under attention of this office.  He in 1984 started attending KOSAS meetings.  He approached this office and after in depth discussions were held with him he renounced all KOSAS activities and pledged his full cooperation with this office.  He provided us with valuable information and kept us up to date with everything happening in the township.  He was accused of being an informer of the South African Police.  He provided satisfactory evidence against Mohape in court'
Now do you have any knowledge of this letter?