Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Even if he didn't, so what?  In the circumstances he presented himself in that case, he said he was not guilty, not so?  Could he have been expected to come say there "ja I went there and I was there and I protected the community"?  He elected not to tell the truth so can he be expected to have put himself?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would argue yes.  At the criminal trial this applicant did place him on the scene, he did make himself a part of the particular incident for which now applies for amnesty, but his reasons for doing it - at the criminal trial he gave other reasons.  Whether they were the truth or not the truth I cannot say but at least it differs from his version today and the reasons for him going to the disco and that in itself I would submit is adequate basis for me to make the allegation and ask the question or put it to him that he in fact, his present version is a fabrication of the event.  Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well why wasn't his version in the criminal trial found to be a fabrication?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, his version why he went there - there was no finding made with regard to that.

CHAIRPERSON: But wasn't he convicted?

MR HATTINGH: Absolutely, he was convicted but we have to remember that he did put himself on the scene and made himself part of the incident and he was convicted on that basis but his reasons, we are now dealing not with the incident but his reasons for going there and the reasons for ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Why couldn't those reasons have been a fabrication?  Wasn't it indeed found to be a fabrication?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, no it wasn't found to be a fabrication and I think with greatest respect that I submit that I'm entitled to ask the applicant to explain to this Committee whether his evidence at the time for his presence on the scene, whether that was a fabrication or whether today's ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well then you must ask that.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I don't read the record the same way as my learned friend reads it.  Mr Khaba didn't put himself on the scene, in fact he had an alibi that he was going to a funeral.  It was a completely different story.

MR HATTINGH: Well just to respond to that, Mr Chairman, the applicant started out with an alibi, he pleaded an alibi, all the state witnesses were cross-examined and an alibi was put to all the state witnesses and once the applicant commenced his evidence the alibi suddenly went out of the window and he suddenly placed himself on the scene.  So the alibi is, the applicant at the time of the criminal trial chose to relinquish his alibi and in fact place himself on the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Put what you want to put.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, when you gave evidence at the criminal trial you placed yourself on the scene but you omitted to say you went to the disco to protect the community because the Black Cats were causing trouble there.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it, Mr Hattingh.  What did he say?  I can't recall what he said in the criminal trial.  When he placed himself there what did he go there for?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, at the criminal trial he said that by chance and I can be corrected, by chance he passed the disco and that this incident occurred out of the blue with no reason whatsoever.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I certainly don't have a transcript of the evidence given at the criminal trial.  If my learned friend has a transcript of that evidence which was actually given by the applicant I would like to be placed in possession of a copy of that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khaba, in the criminal trial did you tell the court the truth there?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It is because I was aware that some of the charges for which I was being prosecuted were a fabrication, they were not as things occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us be more specific then.  In respect of the reasons why you went to the disco that night where Obed was shot at, did you tell the court in the criminal trial the truth?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It is because I was also represented by the State Attorney.  Everything that was happening there was not the truth that is why I took up the opportunity to come before this Commission to apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've come to give this Amnesty Committee another version as to why you went to the disco?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the truth?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if it were put to you that what you're telling the Amnesty Committee is a story you're making up and it's fabricated, what would your response be to it?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I would say that's a very big mistake because things are as I explained them before this Commission.  I cannot mislead the Commission when I indeed am applying for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, can you then tell this Committee when did you come up or first disclosed this version that you went to the disco for the purpose of protecting the community?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: How?  I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: At the very latest it's the 24th April 1996 and he was at Barberton.

MR HATTINGH: At what stage did you first disclose that there were problems at the disco and that was the reason why you went there?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When did I start to indicate that there's a problem at the disco, is that what you're saying?

MR HATTINGH: The question is - when did you first disclose to anyone that your reasons for going to the disco were that there was a problem, the Black Cats were causing trouble at the disco?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I told my lawyer this and also the people who used to accompany me very well knew that there was a problem in the township and may I as well indicate that the disco is the place where the Black Cats were very strong and therefore members of the community were not moving freely around these places.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh are you - is it your case that there were no problems at the disco that night?

MR HATTINGH: Yes Mr Chairman.
	I put it to you that this version that there were problems at the disco that night is a fabrication of the event.  Evidence will be led to the effect that there were no problems whatsoever and that you came to the disco and you caused the problems there.  What is your response to that?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I am saying that is not correct, that is because I was personally present on the scene.  Everything is as I have explained it, not fabrication.

MR HATTINGH: I agree with you, the moment you arrived at the scene at the disco problems were there, that is correct yes, because you caused the problems.  Prior to your arrival there were no problems?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is not as you put it.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, is it correct that in 1992 you also made statement to your own attorney with regard to this incident where you were arrested for the murder of Obed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Which attorney are you talking about?

MR HATTINGH: Did you make a warning statement when you were arrested for the crime the killing of Obed?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I don't have any knowledge of this.  Are we again going into a situation where documents are available to Mr Hattingh which haven't been made available to me?

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on at this now, are you still pursuing the same point that he didn't make mention of the reasons why he went to the disco?

MR HATTINGH: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is it going to get you?  I think the horse is dead already.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, it all depends on which horse is dead.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a saying of flogging a dead horse.

MR HATTINGH: Yes what I would like to put to this witness ...[intervention]