Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-12

MR LAX: Ms Thabete, let him finish, he's trying to explain.  There was a point where he got out of the car to get hangers.  Just finish your evidence Mr Plaatjies?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes Mr Chair, there was a time when I get out, it's possible it could be that time or the time we were robbed because when I came back I was asking that the co-accused, Henry Christian, did he said anything yet?  He said no.  After that we went and shot them.  It was at the scene of the crime we will tighten those guys with hangers.

MS THABETE: According to the evidence in court that was led by Mr Makajee, Makanjee or whatever, you were seated in front of that car, it's on page 12 - 21.  The car stopped and you forced the people out of the car and then it's at that time that you took possession of the bank cards and the watches.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Mrs Chair if you can ...[intervention]

MS THABETE: It was before you actually went to the house of the lady to ask for coat hangers?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: If I could remember carefully on that day in court I had a bandage on my hand.  I was busy assaulting them.  I think in chief evidence Mr Makanjee said the one with a bandage was hitting from behind.  I had an operation here on my hand.  If you can go clearly to my evidence, he said the one with the bandage on his hand, I was the one who was assaulting them.

MS THABETE: I'm not disputing that Mr Plaatjies.

MR LAX: Mr Plaatjies, just listen to the question before you start arguing with the evidence leader.  Do you understand, she hasn't even finished putting the question to you and you're already trying to answer.  Please just listen carefully, in that way you'll understand the issue better.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Okay Mr Chair.

MS THABETE: Mr Plaatjies, I'm not disputing the fact that you assaulted them, but what I'm saying to you is that evidence was led in court that you actually took, robbed them of their watches and their bank cards before you assaulted them and before you used the coat hangers to tie them.  So it's not possible - I put it to you, it's not possible that you could not have been there when the watches were taken because this happened before you actually stopped and got out of the car to get the coat hangers to tie them up?  Can you explain?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Mrs Chair it's impossible because that time no one was robbed yet, even me, I was surprised when after we burned out the car because as you said, you said in chief evidence I was sitting in the front but at the end of the day the one with the bandage was sitting at behind, is in chief evidence, was hitting him.  The one with the bandage around his hand.  I was sitting at the back, I never sat in the front Mrs Chair.

MS THABETE: But you agreed that you sat in front of the car?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I never sat in the front.

MS THABETE: Is it not also correct that you stopped and you tried to extract cash from the various bank outlets with the cards that you had taken from them?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I don't remember about any stopping at any banks that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know or don't you know?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I don't know about any cards.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not something that you can forget.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: No I don't remember about cards.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that happen or that did not happen?  It's not something that you can forget?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Mrs Chair as I said if I could have remembered I will tell Mrs Chair as I only heard all those evidence in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that did not happen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: It did not happen at that day.

CHAIRPERSON: May I request you to address me as Madame Chair?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes Madame Chair.

MS THABETE: When these men approached your house or when these men went past your house, did you know they were policemen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said there's no Indians always in our community and during that week ...[intervention]

MS THABETE: No, I'm asking did you know they were policemen.  I know you knew they were Indians.  I'm asking did you know they were policemen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: No I was just acting, I was just panicking that day.

MR LAX: Just answer a simple yes or no.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: No I didn't - I took the initiative they were policemen.

MR LAX: Did you know that they were policemen, yes or no, plain and simple?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I thought they were but at the end of the day ...[intervention]

MR LAX: You didn't know?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

MR LAX: So just say no.

MS THABETE: So on what basis did you attack them if you didn't know they were policemen with regard to the political objective that you've stated in your evidence?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I've said the reason why I answer it ...[indistinct] at court, I was told those guys were not from the security branch that's why I responded to that question like that.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis did you proceed to abduct them if you did not know that they were policemen, that is the question put to you?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I understand the question wrong Mrs Chair.
But that day when I abducted them I was sure they were policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just said you did not know that they were policemen when they approached your house?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well Madame Chair as I said also now in my evidence I said I only heard those things in court that's why I respond to that question like that.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just enquire from you Mr Plaatjies, I'm sorry to interrupt you, if you established in court that they were not policemen, why did you in your affidavit still refer to them as Indian security policemen?  If you look for an example on page 3 of your affidavit, 3.8:  "then these two Indian security policemen confronted me."  Why are you ...[inaudible] affidavit that they are policemen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Well that what's happening on that day on that specific day, you can't talk about after court.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  Proceed.

MS THABETE: So what are you saying Mr Plaatjies, are you saying you did not know they were policemen or are you saying you did know that they were policemen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: The night of the attack?

MS THABETE: When they went past your house?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: I did think they were policemen that night.

MS THABETE: You thought they were policemen.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Ja they probably were policemen.

MS THABETE: Why did you think that they were policemen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Because I had the information that they were Indians.

MS THABETE: So to you Indians are policemen, is that what you are saying?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes it's possible.

MS THABETE: So when you see an Indian it's the same thing as if you are seeing a policeman, is that what you're saying?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said in my - it's not easy to see an Indian there in Westbury.

CHAIRPERSON: But why would on this occasion when seeing these two Indian men think that they were policemen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Mrs Chair that day I just panicked.

CHAIRPERSON: You keep on referring to your state of mind as being that of panicking?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you have to panic?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: If it were policemen maybe my life would also be in danger that night.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know, you actually saw two Indian persons, what made you to panic when seeing two Indian persons.

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: Because the information I had that the Indians were looking for me, Mrs Chair - Madame Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was not just any other Indian, the information was that two Indian policemen?

JULIAN DION PLAATJIES: As I said I just get an order what I was supposed to do Mrs Chair, Madame Chair.