Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Okay, having said that I'd like to refer to the CDF inquiry which was convened by Brigadier Marius Olshitz who was then Chief of the CDF.  I will just read a few things and stop and ask you a few questions.  This is the section on the breakaway and it says,
"A section of the crowd, not Kasrils group, began to move along the stadium bank in the direction of the CBD of Bisho.  A CDF reaction force was then deployed to reinforce troops along Jongilanga Crescent.  Kasrils group then ran at speed toward the gravel road between the stadium and Jongilanga Crescent while the reinforcements were still running to take up their positions".
are you with me so far?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes.
DR RAMASHALA
"At this stage the field commander had already reported to the overall commander that the crowd was rushing toward them.  The soldiers along Jongilanga Crescent reported that they were under fire..."
these were the soldiers.
"The field commander reported that shots were being fired towards them to the overall commander.  By then the front ranks of the charging crowd were about 150 metres away from the soldiers along Jongilanga...."
What, in your opinion, what do you think was happening?  One group of soldiers says they were being fired at, another 
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group of soldiers says they were not being fired at, and we now know that the crowd was not carrying weapons.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Well first of all I was not at the scene on that side.  As I have explained I saw Mr Kasrils running, not going, not into the stadium but running along the fence, and beckoning people to follow him, and then he disappeared.  What happened outside, I don't know Ma'am whether you've visited the scene, but then you'll know what I am talking about.  I was right here on the border, the Ciskei/South African border, and once they disappeared or Mr Kasrils disappeared or whoever ran through on the other side I couldn't see them.  I have no knowledge what really, as I have explained here I heard shots being fired.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Let me bring your attention to another summary and it's called Command and Control.
"Combined planning with all security forces took place and also planning on lower levels..."
I underline lower levels.
"It was possible, however, that too much was left to the green card mandate".
Another part of the report which refers to coordination and will speak to my question to you,
"There was a breakdown in coordination between CDF and the Ciskei Police".

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: A great what, I couldn't hear?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: "There was a breakdown..."

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: A breakdown....
DR RAMASHALA
"...in coordination between the CDF and Ciskei Police, no overall Ciskei Police Officer appeared to be in command leading to a rapid change of
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command to the CDF when the situation got out of control.  No redeployment of Ciskei Police on equivalent levels took place.  This led during the breakout of marchers from the stadium to sudden and direct conflict between CDF and marchers, Ciskei Police being negated due to Police not being redeployed within the new scenario".
Without an indictment or direct indictment Sir I want to follow up on Ms Gobodo's comments that for a professional of your experience and skill to delegate to others as you say you were on the sidelines providing moral support, that in fact you were negligent by not taking control on that day because here the issues are there was no coordination and there was a lot of confusion, in the meantime there were bullets all over.  This is not an indictment, I am asking you for your thinking, I am asking you to do Monday morning quarterback, to do some reflective thinking.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Now first of all Mr Chairperson you must realise that police and army in any country they have different cultures, different training, but to say there was a breakdown, with all due respect to General Olshig I don't think I can agree.  As I have stated here when I saw Mr Kasrils and some of the people running not into the stadium but outside I've said here that I've asked Major Simms, I said look send some people there and he did send I think two officers and some men.  We didn't know that these people were breaking out on the other side or going out of the stadium, I couldn't see there, but there was no breakdown in coordination.  As I have also explained we were responsible here at the tar road and we were only a handful of policemen and there was Brigadier Ngcobo and Major Simms, they were
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the two officers in charge and you know as a senior man once you have delegated your powers to your people then you just don't go and interfere, then there is really confusion.  You don't interfere.  And in this case I can assure you that there was no time, there was really no time to coordinate between army and police again.  It was a question of, I don't think even minutes, when these people, when I saw Mr Kasrils and the people running towards, I think it was the north-east side and the shots I heard, there was no time to coordinate any future actions.  That is my reply to you Ma'am.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: General I would like to ask you to take off your General's hat and speak as a father, and speak perhaps as a humanbeing.  I am positive that over the years, since this happened, that you have reflected, I mean it would not be normal if you hadn't reflected, but you have reflected that you thought and wondered what went wrong, could you give us some of your thinking?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Forget the General's hat and forget my fathership, I'm both.  I was a general for quite a number of years and I am a father, I am a grandfather, and as a very experienced detective I went along with the Colonel from Pretoria, the ballistic expert and it's not a question of reflecting afterwards, it is that day I saw bullet holes there in the grandstand, right up there, and that is why I have said in my statement here where I was I couldn't see any reason, as far as I could determine, any reason for, I can't say what happened there in front on the north-east side, but here where I was I couldn't see any reason why the soldiers opened fire on the crowd around there, especially after, as I say, having visited the scene and going into
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the stadium, going into the grandstand and see where we found bullet holes right up there in the grandstand.  As a policeman, as I say, what I could determine, I couldn't see any reason why shots were fired right up there into the grandstand.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: My final question.  As the head, the then head of the Ciskei Police one cannot abdicate total responsibility, regardless of your role, I think the buck stops with you so-to-speak, General what do you want to tell the parents of the children who died that day?  The children whose fathers died that day?  The wives whose husbands died that day, and the husbands whose wives died that day?  If you had the opportunity as you have today what would you like to tell them?