Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I put it to you that all of those who were present at these meetings were necessarily AWB members and did not necessarily share the sentiments of the AWB?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct, as I've already said the first part of the meeting would be an open meeting and after that it would be a closed meeting.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I'm taking you to page 59, the list of supplies which you had to keep ready in the event of a war.  I put it to you that page 57 and 58 form a unit and that page 59 is a separate report?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct, if I peruse it.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And I put it to you that it is highly improbable that a town council would issue a report such as that which appears on page 59 and place it in people's post boxes.

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: These were all found in our post boxes which were all at a central location, that is where we obtained it.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: So what you're saying is that - can you say with certainty whether these guidelines were distributed by the town council, both sets?  Is it only page 59 or page 57?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I wouldn't be able to say.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: So in effect you're saying that these guidelines could have been distributed by somebody else or somebody else with access to the town council or the post office?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: It must have been someone from the post office or the town council, that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: The person whom you married, are those your own children?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I beg your pardon?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You were married during this process, the person whom you married, did you marry this person before or after the incident?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No I was married before the incident and these children are my own children.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you.  I would just like to take you to Constable Swart's statement.  Do you know about his statement which he made in court?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes I do know about it.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You agree with his evidence which he gave during the court proceedings?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: In what regard would you say that his evidence is incorrect?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I can't remember his statement explicitly because it was made two years ago and there are certain aspects of that statement with which I do not agree.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I put it to you that he will make a statement during which he said that the words were never uttered that you were acting on behalf of a right-wing organisation.  What do you say about that?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I said so just now, Mr de Meillon said "don't do anything stupid".  I didn't hear him say that he was from a right-wing organisation.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Constable Swart goes further to say in his statement that it was never put to him or said to him that weapons would be taken from any person?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: In both these statements is Mr de Meillon incorrect in saying that this happened?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I wouldn't know I was not with him in the room at that moment.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I put it to you that it was a very small room and that you stood at the open door and if this had been said you would have heard it?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No, as I have already testified, I stood by the window when I saw Mr de Meillon go in and upon that I followed him.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I would just like to pick that up, the political deed, do you have any evidence that the political organisation you allege you belonged to had given approval for the killing of policemen?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No I don't have, Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Do you feel that is justified to kill a policeman for one firearm?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No it isn't justified.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: In which respect could this deed have contributed to any political purpose or objective?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: It couldn't have contributed, Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Holder, there is one aspect I'd like to clarify with you.  You talked about the request or a request being equated to an instruction, you equated requests with instructions if they came from a commander, is that what you're saying?  Am I right?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That's right.

ADV GCABASHE: But did you consider Mr de Meillon to be your commander?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: During the evening of the event, yes that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Now I know that the detail of where you were going to or the broad terms rather, where you were going to you got from Mr van Schalkwyk.  I'm trying to find out who gave you the instruction, was it Mr de Meillon, Mr van Schalkwyk or if there were two instructions, just clarify that for me because both of them seemed to have had an influence on what you did?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I was given the instruction by Mr van Schalkwyk, Mr Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Could you have refused to go with Mr de Meillon?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I saw my involvement with the AWB as the same as the then defence force, in other words if a higher ranking officer gave an instruction you carried it out.

ADV GCABASHE: And in this instance the high ranking officer was Mr van Schalkwyk?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: There are actually a couple of more areas that I have notes on here.  Coming to the guardhouse you were at the window then you went to the door.  Did the struggle start when you were at the window, when you were at the door or when you had already walked into the room?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: When I walked into the room the struggle started, ja.

ADV GCABASHE: That's the struggle between Mr de Meillon and the deceased?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That's right.

ADV GCABASHE: You had walked in already?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: I understood you to say that you walked into the room because you saw Mr Swart pull his firearm?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Correct me?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I walked into the room when I saw Mr de Meillon go in then I followed him into the room.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, at what point did you observe Mr Swart pulling his firearm?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: As I entered the room the deceased jumped up and he and Mr de Meillon were struggling then I saw Mr de Swart pulling his firearm.

ADV GCABASHE: You see again I'm trying to understand, when you walked into the room you were going in to separate De Meillon and Terblanche or whether you walked in because at that point you observed Mr Swart pull his firearm and that's where you were headed, I'm not too sure, just help me with that?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: His firearm wasn't pulled yet, he was busy pulling it when I came into the room and Mr - the deceased jumped up and struggled with Mr de Meillon then I went to ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: You went straight to Mr Swart?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That's right.

ADV GCABASHE: And then finally, I have to come back to where you were supposed to find these arms, again it's a note that I had made.  When you were told about these arms that Mr de Meillon knew about, that were in various places, were you told that they were from the Government, they were Government arms, were you told that there was a camp where certain people were and I had assumed and I read the documents that it would either be the ANC or the SACP where they had these illegal arms?  Whose arms were you going to take in terms of structures, political structures?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I believed at that stage that these firearms were PAC or SACP or ANC or any one of those groups.