Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, near the garage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: At this meeting were women present on the 14th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they were present on the meeting of the 14th.

MS TANZER: Were you informed at this meeting of the time when the attack would take place?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I just remember the date well.

MS TANZER: At this meeting what were your instructions, what were you told to do?   In Boipatong that is.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We were just told that we would destroy the entire township.  They said that we should destroy everything and everyone because the people of Boipatong supported the ANC, that is what I heard at the meeting.

MS TANZER: Now was explained or was it said when you should destroy everybody that included women and children?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's what was said, they said everyone, children, old people, pregnant women, everyone should be killed.

MS TANZER: Were you told at this meeting that you would be supplied with weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They said we would receive the weapons at the stadium.

MS TANZER: And when the attack would be finished did they tell you at the meeting what would happen to the weapons, did they tell you what to do with the weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I remember was that it was said that the weapons would be returned back to the stadium and that Xongo would collect them.

MS TANZER: At this meeting of the 14th was any mention, meeting about a rally that would be held in Ulundi after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I first learned of that after the attack on Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, when it is convenient, would you let us know so that we can adjourn for lunch?

MS TANZER: Well it's convenient at this point because I'm proceeding to the next stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll rise and come back at twenty past 2.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR BERGER: Chairperson, whilst we're waiting for Ms Tanzer, might I just say that we've had an opportunity to glance briefly at the application that Mr Lowies intends proceeding with tomorrow morning.  It would appear that there are a number of people who are being accused of some very serious misconduct, amongst them the African National Congress.  In fact it is being alleged that the African National Congress is part of a conspiracy to manufacture evidence and other people as well.  We don't act on behalf of the African National Congress but it would appear as though their interests are being effected by this application and we would have thought that they should be given proper notice of this because they might want to make either certain representations or place certain evidence before the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) the application?

MR BERGER: Well our attitude is that we are going to have to prepare papers.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Yes Ms Tanzer?

MS TANZER: (continues)  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	I just want to go back and clarify with you the question of the unsigned affidavit which is on page 8 of the bundle R.  Although this affidavit had not been signed by you and you had not - and had not been read to you after it was drawn, is it correct that this affidavit was taken or was made as a result of information that you had given to certain persons who had visited you in a prison for the intention of your application for amnesty?

MR LOWIES: Mr Chairman, I have to object against this question on behalf of my clients.  My submission is that this evidence is suggesting an answer and it is one of the crucial aspects not only in the application but also in the merits of this matter and I would submit that under those circumstances the question would be admissible suggesting an answer.

MS TANZER: I think that it's a question as crucial in fact to the application of this applicant in that it presupposes that if this affidavit is unacceptable then his whole application is out of time, is not timeous.  Now what evidence I'm trying to draw or what information I'm trying to obtain is that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The issues is not, it has never been whether his application is out of time.  The objection here is that it's a leading question, that's what it should address you.

MS TANZER: Alright then I understand that question.  I'll rephrase it.
	Did anybody visit you at a prison in order to obtain a statement from you to support your application for amnesty in respect of any offences that you have committed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o.)  Yes that is correct, that was Mr Berger and Mr Brian.

MS TANZER: (cont)
	 Do you remember when they ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sorry?   I'm saying Mr Berger and Mr Brian visited me at the Maximum Stoffberg Prison.  Mr Brian.

MS TANZER: Can you clarify who is Mr Berger and Mr Brian?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They came to me and introduced themselves as Advocates and Brian said he is in Johannesburg, based in Johannesburg, and they requested me to give them my statement, my amnesty statement.

MS TANZER: In making your statement, did you give information relating to the Boipatong Massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MS TANZER: Now the affidavit that you did not sign and I read to you at the prison a few days ago, is a lot of that affidavit correct insofar as information you did tell them at the prison?  The advocates?

CHAIRPERSON: Well there's a suggestion that this statement which occurs at pages 8 through 10 is the statement that was given by Mr Nosenga to Advocate Berger and Brian?

MS TANZER: That is what I'm asking him.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then ask the question directly.

MS TANZER: The information on this affidavit, on page 8, 9 and 10, that I read to you in a prison last week, that was not signed by you, is this affidavit - does this contain information that you did tell or give to Advocate Berger and Advocate Brian when they visited you at the prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't because I did not sign it.

MS TANZER: But did you tell them any - did you tell them about the Boipatong attack and the Zone 12, Sebokeng, Everton attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there is something that I told them about the Boipatong incident.

MS TANZER: And that was part of your application for amnesty?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Alright.  Just on more question, Advocate Brian and Advocate Berger, did they ever come back to the prison and read or indicate that there was a statement that you needed to sign?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, they did not.

MS TANZER: Alright.  Okay, let's go back to our questions relating to your stay at the KwaMadala Hostel.  When the siren was sounded on the evening of the attack on the 17th June 1992, did you proceed to the stadium knowing that from there you would be attacking Boipatong?

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chair, I object to that question, my submission is there is an easy way to ask, just say "when you heard the siren what happened then?" but I mean to suggest that the Boipatong was going to be attacked is very leading?

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought the evidence of this witness is at least two weeks prior to the 14th they were told that they were going to attack Boipatong.  On the 14th they were also told that they were going to attack Boipatong, so the question is really whether on the 17th he went there knowing that Boipatong was going to be attacked?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Will the question please be repeated?

MS TANZER: When you heard the siren on the 17th June in the evening, did you go to the stadium knowing that you would be attacking Boipatong that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MS TANZER: Now did you receive instructions at any of the meetings or on the night in question only to attack and kill SDU members or anyone else to be found at the location of Boipatong?