Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: If I remember well, it was about two and a half weeks.

MS MTANGA: Mr Chikororo, you said Mr Nesamari took over the applying of electrical shocks on you.

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Was Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa present at the time he was doing this?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes.  Yes, they were there.

MS MTANGA: Wasn't your head covered at this point?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: My head was covered.  What used to happen is that - I mean I know, let me put it to the Committee that I know Ramaligela for a very, very long time, before even that.  I couldn't have mistaken his voice because I even played cards with him before because he was a friend of my uncle.
	So, he would give instructions and take it from there, so I couldn't mistaken any other person to be responsible.  I couldn't have seen physically as to who applied the electrodes on my body but when Nesamari said particularly 'Give him to me,' he put those electrodes on me.  He was even mentioning that 'Now my boy, if you don't give me information, it will never happen that you will give information again because I'm going to make you to give information.'

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you said that you used to play cards with Mr Ramaligela.

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes, with Ramaligela ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Now how did you know it was Mr Nesamari who said 'Hand him over to me.'

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: I know his voice.  I'd talk to him before so, and I couldn't - his voice is quite unique, even if you can put me in a room now, I'll identify his voice.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Do you have anything that you want to add on in respect of the applying of electrical shocks on you except what you have said now?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: I don't have anything to add.

MS MTANGA: What do you say about the fact that the applicants deny.  Mr Ramaligela has emphatically denied that he tortured you or he was present when you were tortured and the fact that they deny ever applying electrical shocks on you, what do you say about that?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: I am very disappointed at Ramaligela.  I thought personally that he might be taking this process serious.  In as far as the younger fellows are concerned, I think there's a cloud somewhere which is prohibiting these people from telling the truth which I believe is a disgrace.  	I had on my own, even from the day they tortured me, I had decided to say - I was cracking jokes with them, to their annoyance, and I had said, I was even battling with my good Reverend here that I had personally forgiven them.  But whether the Nation and the Committee should forgive people who don't want to tell the truth when they are not pressurised, I feel that is a disappointment.

MS MTANGA: Does that conclude your evidence, Mr Chikororo?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.  Mr Meyer, do you have any questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR MEYER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do but could I ask an indulgence of a ten minute break, I just need to clear some points of his evidence up with my clients?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, we'll take a short adjournment, ten minutes to allow Mr Meyer to take instructions.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer, are you in a position to proceed?

MR MEYER: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman, and thank you for the adjournment.

MS MTANGA: Excuse me, Mr Chairperson, can I be allowed to - something has been brought to my attention during the break, that in the translation when Rev Phosiwa was giving evidence, he had stated that he couldn't see who pulled his hair from the head because he was made to face the wall, the part that stated he was made to face the wall was never translated by the interpreters, I just want to put that on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, we'll take note of that, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chikororo, your referred to a person called 'Johnny Mindreader' that was going to be called.  Do you remember that?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes.

MR MEYER: Who was this and did he ever arrive?  Do you know who it is?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes, I know.  It was this electricity gadget which I never saw.

MR MEYER: Oh.  All right, now you've already testified that the electric shock method was used on you during the interrogation.  Is that correct?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes.

MR MEYER: And it was done by Mr Nesamari, is that correct?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Not he alone.

MR MEYER: Yes.  I didn't quite catch that part of the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I think ...(indistinct) at the end, what Mr Chikororo said that after a whole day of torture from 09h00 to approximately 20h00 then he recognised the voice of Mr Nesamari saying 'Hand him over to me.'  And it was thereafter that the electrodes were attached to various parts of his body and he was shocked, causing excruciating pain, is that right?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Nesamari came at that stage.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I just wasn't quite clear on that evidence.  All right, and you've mentioned that you heard the voice of Mr Ramaligela while this process was taking place.

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes, I heard his voice and whenever the sack was taken out, he was just next to my head.

MR MEYER: Now, is it possible, we know or I think it's more or less common cause that Mr Ramaligela was the head of the interrogation team who had to investigate this bombing of the police station.  Do you agree with me that Mr Ramaligela, when you heard his voice, it's possible that he was looking in to see what progress was being made by his subordinates?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: I don't remember his voice being absent from that torture room from the time I entered until the time I left.  He is the one who said 'Let's put the sack back on his head because this boy is not co-operating.'  And he is the one who will say 'Stop.'  So, I am of the opinion that he was ever present.  If maybe he went out, it might have been for a minute or two and he came back which was insignificant.

MR MEYER: Okay, I'll get back to that just now.  All right, and then I also have to put it to you, as you are well aware that the applicants deny ever using the electric shock method and attaching the electrodes to your private parts.

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: That's a big, big, big disgrace, Mr Chairman.

MR MEYER: Okay, but you testify that you couldn't see who put the electrodes on you?  You just heard Mr Nesamari's voice saying 'Give him to me.'  Is that correct?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes, the other electrodes earlier, I can't exactly say who put them but the instruction were always from Muthuphei Ramaligela.

MR MEYER: Until it was taken over by Mr Nesamari?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: Yes, that's when he requested to handle me, physically.

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman, there is just one instruction I need, if I can just have a minute.  Yes, just to clear up this point, Mr Chikororo, Director Ramaligela says that he was, during the time while you were being tortured or assaulted, interrogated, he was there most of the time but he did go out on occasion.  But then went back into the room where you were being held, do you agree with that?

RAMANO SELWYN CHIKORORO: On occasion, maybe if it meant that he walked out for a minute, and I felt two or three minutes he'll be back which to me, because I was battling with the pain and other things was insignificant.  Even if he went out for five minutes or ten minutes, even this one long session would begin with him for 15, 20 minutes and end with him there.  In as far as I'm concerned, he was always there.