Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR NIENABER: No, no sorry.

MR PIGOU: Thank you, no further questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: I'll be very brief. Mr Coetzee and Mr Nienaber, you people have had transcripts of our hearings that took place into the events surrounding the Mandela United Football Club given to you. Have you had a chance to look at them?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Chairperson, partly yes. The pieces we have received late, a few days before and even the first few volumes that we have received one cannot read them and they are not in proper order.

MR VALLY: Well, Mr Coetzee, be that as it may because I find it strange you say that because your attorneys were given discs as far as I understand a copy of the transcript was put on disc for your attorneys like it was for all the other attorneys.
 However there is clear evidence and there are a number of witnesses who talk about a reign of terror by the Mandela United Football Club, they talk about various incidents.  We've put on record a number of members of the Mandela United Football Club who are serving sentences for murder, attempted murder, etc., as a result of certain activities carried out by them. 
 You say in your affidavit, paragraph 19, that you had special interest in the activities of Mrs Mandela and the football club, you have told us that you were monitoring her telephone conversations. We have heard that parents came to your offices, spoke to a member of your department, a Mr Lemmer and said: "My son has been kidnapped and Mrs Madikizela Mandela was present." We've heard a number of people enquiring from the Madikizela Mandela household and who were involved in it and public meetings as well regarding the abduction of the four youths including Stompie Sepei from the manse. 
 Your failure to act regarding the abduction of youngsters can be interpreted in one of two ways, gross negligence or malicious intent. Can you give us a reason why your policemen did not act regarding the abduction of either the four youths from the manse or of the two youths, Lolo Sono and Siboniso Tshabalala timeously? Can you give us a reason?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I've already told you Chairperson, in my dictionary negligence is being spelt out. The other people that we didn't receive information on and in that case it is negligence on the side of the public who knew but who didn't inform the police. And who on purpose withheld the information. But one justifies - doesn't justify the other and I'm telling you that now in whatever way it is being spelt out.
 I cannot understand how a person, a member of the public who come and complain towards a policeman and telling him that his child was kidnapped and that a certain person was present and that no steps were taken, I can't imagine that. It is so that they did - that there were wrongdoings and I am telling you that that spells negligence to me.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  Mr Nienaber?

MR NIENABER: I'll probably agree with that.

MR VALLY: Mr Nienaber you were in charge at the time when you were monitoring the telephone conversations of Mrs Madikizela Mandela. We've had a whole string of prominent people here talking about the comings and goings in the Madikizela Mandela household about the kidnapping of the four youths from the manse.
 Mr Coetzee's excuse is no one told you people about it. I put it to you that your monitoring of the telephone conversation could have indicated to you that there was serious consternation from the community about this incident, why didn't you act?

MR NIENABER: I'm sorry I can't answer you that question.

MR VALLY: Why not?

MR NIENABER: I just don't know. I simply don't know because I'll tell you if you were to tell me why I didn't act. There was action, it was investigated, all those things were done.

MR VALLY: You know Mr Coetzee and Mr Nienaber, the attitude and the impression we had from the many prominent community members who were here and who have subsequently, some of them have got important political office, was that the activities of the Mandela United Football Club and their reign of terror was either condoned by the Security Branch or the Security Branch actively allowed it to go on. And part of the reason why we having this hearing is that the Security Branch in Soweto had its own agenda which was not protecting youths, which was not maintaining law and order.
 And most of all, it was not co-operating with various other branches to ensure that justice would be done. And if you had taken steps like you did take steps in many political matters, aggressive steps, then a number of the youths whose families are here today asking where there children are, would not be so distraught. 
 And as much as the blame is laid at the foot of people such as Jerry Richardson, who claims that he killed Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Tshabalala, such as Jerry Richardson who has been convicted for the murder of Stompie Sepei and this very same Jerry Richardson who was your informer.  And you two as the officers commanding the Security Branch are ultimately responsible because the buck stops here. this is where the tax money went to. 
 You were in charge, are equally liable for those incidents that took place because of your failure to act and carry out your official responsibilities. How do you respond to that?

MR NIENABER: I don't agree.

MR KEMP: Madam Chairperson, just before we get a reply, I'm just worried that the reply might be as long as the question. You'll appreciate if you look at me Madame Chairperson, I don't want to miss breakfast. Could we perhaps just get direction from you that we have questions and not argument please?

YASMINE SOOKA: I was just going to say that Mr Kemp.  Mr Vally, we're not, I think we're all tired of speeches. Could we get on with the job of finishing? I hope that was your last question? Could I ask Mr Coetzee and Mr Nienaber to respond briefly please?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Chairman, actually I shouldn't answer briefly but categorically I denied it and I think it is a very grossly wrong conclusion. I want to mention a name and an example, I think it was mentioned in the Committee, what a hard working member Sergeant Pretorius was and what he has done for the public of Soweto and I think it is a grossly unfair statement therefore.

MR NIENABER: I said that I disagreed.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you Mr Vally, I hope that was your last question.

MR VALLY: I want to reiterate Madame Chair and it was my last question. That all this dodging and weaving has to stop somewhere and it has to stop at the top of this hierarchy in Soweto with the Security Branch which is Mr Ig Coetzee and Mr Nienaber.
 And with respect we may have to call them back again because some one has to take responsibility for the incompetence or negligence of the Security Branch in Soweto, thank you Madame Chair.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, you've made your point. Could I start at the bottom please? Should I start at the top? Mr du Toit?

MR DU TOIT: Madame Chair may I quickly pose my questions.  General Coetzee thank you for your admission that the family had been prejudiced. It might not be within your knowledge that Mr Pretorius as well as his widow, both of them returned repeatedly to Soweto with enquiries but he left from there after the incident, shortly after the incident so perhaps you don't remember.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I don't know with whom she spoke but that's just not acceptable, I just wish one could have done something about it. You see one of the problems was that one could have read the inquest docket a hundred times and you wouldn't have known that Jerry Richardson had been an informant and Mr Pretorius, his handler.