Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

LC KAMANA: The main reason why they were wanted there, it is because we wanted Brigadier Gqozo to be removed from his position, so as the footsoldiers, they were using us to send us from different areas.  We thought that we could get them so that Gqozo could not be able to use us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When Captain Sawuti was fetched, it was already, Brigadier Gqozo had resigned, is that correct?

LC KAMANA: The resignation of Brigadier Gqozo, I heard that at about eleven o'clock, when the Police were talking to themselves, and I didn't trust that, even though I heard about that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, the purpose of fetching the Police if I got your evidence well, the purpose of fetching the Officers was to unify the Police, is that correct so that Gqozo could be isolated?

LC KAMANA: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But now why were these Officers held hostage if the purpose was to unify the Police?

LC KAMANA: I don't understand when you say hostages, maybe you can explain that to me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that the Officers could not leave the hall as they pleased?

LC KAMANA: Not only the Officers, other Police were not supposed to leave, it was not only the Officers.  The people that were leaving that area, were those with cars, who were fetching the Police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I find it strange today that you don't know that the Officers were held hostage when on your application, Section 9(a)(iv) you said, it is said "nature and particular" and what is written there is
"... deprive liberty and held hostage, conspired with incited other person to cause mutiny."
	When you made this application, you mentioned that you want amnesty because you held somebody hostage, is that not correct?

LC KAMANA: Can you please repeat that question.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you made the application, you wanted amnesty because you held somebody hostage, is that not correct?

LC KAMANA: That is correct, yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But today you have taken an oath that you are going to tell the truth, yet, you are saying no one was held hostage?  Can you see the contradiction?

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, I am afraid, my learned friend is making a mistake, the applicant has said even other Policemen could not leave, in fact it is just the reverse of what my learned friend is putting to him now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Nompozolo, have you canvassed this question of the hostage issue directly or are you formulating your question on inference from what the witness had said?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The question of the hostage Mr Chairman, it is found on the application of the applicant.  Now on his evidence he has testified that no one was held hostage, all the Policemen were not allowed to leave.  The question which was asked from him initially was why did they hold the Officers hostage and he said no, they were not held hostage.  I am saying from his application, he has indicated that there was a person or persons who were held hostage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but didn't he say nobody could leave, not only the Officers, nobody could leave there.  It was only people with vehicles who could leave.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, yes, he said so Mr Chairman.  Now, is it correct that the Officers were called to sit on the stage like the panel?

LC KAMANA: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that above the Officers, there were armed Policemen, that is where the band used to play, on the place where the band would play, there were Policemen who were holding firearms on the shooting position?

LC KAMANA: The reason why I am saying that I heard there were Officers on the stage, but I was outside.  Even when there was a meeting called, the Officers were always on the stage.  The fact that the Officers were in front or at the stage, that didn't surprise me because it used to be like that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Are you saying that you did not enter the hall at any stage?

LC KAMANA: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did it come to your knowledge what the purpose of the meeting was?

LC KAMANA: When I arrived at the Police College, people were singing freedom songs and there was a lot of Police cars and a lot of Police and the student Police at the time.  Before that meeting, as we were not satisfied about the ruling of Brigadier Gqozo, we would see pamphlets saying "down with Brigadier Gqozo" and then we would see others with pictures of a dog, with an army cap, but what was clear was that the Police were not satisfied about Gqozo's rule, so there was no one who was prepared to go forward and say that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The question still stands, when did it come to your knowledge that the purpose of the meeting was to unseat Brigadier Gqozo?

LC KAMANA: I found out about that when I arrived at the meeting, when I heard them singing freedom songs.  I could see that that was the main reason, so I joined that because I was also part of that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But you were not told that the purpose of the meeting was to unseat Brigadier Gqozo?

LC KAMANA: The meeting that was called, it was said that the General wanted the Warrant Officers in the College, I was not a Warrant Officer at the time.  We then heard over the radio that all the Police were supposed to be at the meeting that was initially called for Warrant Officers.  I went to that meeting, I was not expecting that.  So when I arrived there, I saw the situation had changed and then I became part and parcel of that meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Are you going to answer me?

LC KAMANA: Maybe I don't understand it, please repeat it.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What I want to know from you is when did you become aware that the purpose of the meeting was to unseat Brigadier Gqozo?

CHAIRPERSON: He said when he arrived.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Sorry Mr Chairman.  How did you get to know because your explanation does not give how did you get to know that this is the purpose of the meeting?  Sorry Mr Chair.

LC KAMANA: As I was outside, people were singing, I talked to the Police that were there, I asked what was happening and then I found out that they wanted Gqozo to resign.  They wanted to do it that way.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that you did not know the loyalty of Mr Sawuti, whether it was with Brigadier Gqozo, whether it was with the people on the other hand, who were against Brigadier Gqozo?

LC KAMANA: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it also correct that the Officers there at the hall were humiliated, they were asked about CV's and they were asked to account about moneys they had misappropriated?

LC KAMANA: I don't know about that, I was outside, I was guarding at the parameters.  What was asked at the Officers, I don't know.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You see, what is strange is that your hearing of the things which were happening, is selective.  You can hear when it is said that the Police must be fetched, but you cannot hear when it is, when the humiliation is taking place about the events which were taking place inside the hall.  Why is that so?

LC KAMANA: What I heard, I heard that there was a case about money that was investigated because a certain person, maybe Captain Sawuti was investigated and that didn't go forward.  I was in and out with a car, I was collecting the Police, so I didn't get exactly what was happening.  Whether he was humiliated that day, I don't know but if he was assaulted or anything else, I am asking for forgiveness for that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: We are still getting there.  Now, according to Captain Sawuti when you arrived at his house, you were the person who was busy saying "switch on the lights because the lights are brighter in Bisho, they must be bright even here."  Why were those comments if it was just to fetch him?  Why did you have to make such comments?