Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-16

CHAIRPERSON: No, I follow the point.  Just two issues in this context.  Is there any reason for us to reject the testimony that a day or so before this particular incident there were these three persons, applicant and his two fellow members, that were searching for the so-called culprits?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, there doesn't seem to be any from the look of things.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the other point is, what do you make of the time lapse between 27 February 1990 and 27 October 1992 in the context of the submission that you make that there should be concern about the fact that it was only the deceased that was attacked?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  Chairperson, it will be recalled that this or the argument of the applicant is to the effect that a period of over two years in between the incident of the attack on the family and the murder of the deceased, but it will be recalled, sir, that after the incident the deceased was charged and the criminal court process was going on.  It may well be that the applicant lost faith in the process, and in fact the charges were withdrawn.  It took some time.  So, the period between the happening of the incident, of the murder of the family of the applicant and the deceased is not as wide as it seems to be portrayed in the argument now from the applicant.  There was that interruption between the pending trial against the deceased until the charges were withdrawn against the deceased, and that may be the cause.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I follow, but is there any indication as to when the case was abandoned against the deceased?

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately, Chair, I'm at pains really to find out when exactly were the charges withdrawn against the deceased, because that would be a crucial point.  Mr Chairman, those are the only points I just wanted to highlight.  Thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Any questions?  Do you wish to respond, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I wouldn't like to respond to my learned friend.  So, he's entitled to raise any concerns he has, except to say that inasmuch as he's concerned, as he correctly put it, his hands are tied because there is no evidence to back up all his concerns.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, thank you very much.  As you would have concluded from some of the discussion, we would obviously need to look at this and we need to take some time to come to a decision on this particular matter.  For the moment the matter will be concluded pending a decision.  We will consider our decision in the matter and will give that as soon as we are in a position to do so.  Now, that concludes the matter of Mr Sibiya.  I know that there is one remaining matter, and that Mr Mapoma at the very least needed the ...[end of tape]
	 We will now adjourn.  It's 1:15.  We will adjourn and will you please let me know what the position is with regard to the next matter?  When we can start with that, and then we can deal with it under those circumstances.  So, we'll adjourn until you inform us that you are ready to proceed with the last matter on our roll.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, can we proceed to look at the matter of Mvijane?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Chairperson, in this particular matter, that is one of Mpumelelo Nkosinathi Mvijane, case number 7355 of 97, there are some problems.  The problem that has ruptured, Chairperson, is that this particular applicant has got a co-applicant by the name of Lulamile Khwankwa.  Unfortunately, Chairperson, when this matter was set down for this particular application of Lulamile Khwankwa, it did not appear in the Amnesty Committee database but it has since been discovered in one of the files.  So it is available now, and Mr Khwankwa is in prison, in Boksburg Prison.  An arrangement has been made already for him to be brought to these proceedings tomorrow so that these matters can be heard jointly, because they arise from the same set of facts and both applicants were involved at the incidents at the same time.
	So, for that reason, Chairperson, therefore the circumstances are such that we are not in a position to proceed with the Mvijane matter for him alone.  That's the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Whilst you are at it, are there interested parties in that application and if so, what is their position?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, sir, there are interested parties.  The parents of the deceased Constable Khungwane are here with the brother and the sister.  Their attitude is that they are opposing the amnesty applications of these two applicants, and to that end they would want legal representation.

CHAIRPERSON: Have any steps been taken in regard to the question of representation?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, some steps have been taken.  We have managed to secure on their behalf with their acceptance, the services of Miss Christine Cambanis.  She has confirmed that she will accept the instructions, and if the documents are made available to her today, then she will be here tomorrow to consult with them and proceed with the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  The parents of the deceased, are they still present?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, they're still present.

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if you just can't call, well, either of them.  Can you just call one of them up to the microphone.  Good afternoon.

MR KHUNGWANE: ... to all the people from TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just get your name and your relationship to the deceased please?

MR KHUNGWANE: My name is Leonard Khungwane.  I'm from Diepkloof, 6952, Zone 4.  Simon Khungwane was my younger brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I just want to confirm the facts that Mr Mapoma had mentioned to us, and that is firstly, that you wish to oppose the application and that you would require the assistance of a lawyer, and that arrangements have been made for Miss Cambanis to assist you in this matter.

MR KHUNGWANE: ... Mr Mapoma has said, I say it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  It doesn't appear as if we are going to be able to proceed with the matter in any case.

MR KHUNGWANE: Mr Chairman, I would say to you I'm very sorry to what has happened today, because firstly, I've got a witness who saw everything and I'm very sorry to what I'm going to say to you, because I'm apologising for this, because as I understand, I was giving ... (indistinct) to put my things right, so I couldn't do that only because of the problems which I have at the farms, about the farm to come back to our people.  So, all I'm asking for you with pleasure is to give me a chance.
	I don't know if the parents of that boy will let the boy to come to - the young boy to come to the amnesty because we had a problem during the trial.  I had to investigate for myself for the other things.  So I had to go and talk to the parents of this youngster because they felt that their son is felt threatened during the trial.  And even if I give this man an amnesty, the boy still feel threatened because you don't know right deep inside somebody's heart or his mind.  That's what I can say to you.