Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: These arms I would say we took our own initiatives, these arms did not come from the ANC.

MR SHAYI: In other words they were not licensed?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

MR SHAYI: Now, you belonged to a particular SDU, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

MR SHAYI: Now do you know whether there was anybody in the said unit who was dealing directly with a political organisation or were you directly involved with the political organisation in your personal capacity and as a member of the self-defence unit itself?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: We have Thembasi Sinamela a comrade who trained us in self-defence.  He is the person to whom we took our complaints and he would take these complaints further.

MR SHAYI: So when you say further, are you referring to the people above, namely the top echelon of the ANC?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I wouldn't want to elaborate on that because I'm not sure, I was not there, I just knew he took these complaints further.

MR SHAYI: Now briefly can you just tell the Committee what aspects led to the incident on the 3rd of February 1993?  In other words what went wrong?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I would say that we had just been trained, it was after a month of fighting at the township where there is a hostel opposite Mzimhlope.  There was a fighting between the SDU against the IFP members.  Six guns were lost.
	I was a leader or a commander of 12 people within the SDU.  I then decided that I should go and try and get hold of other firearms because people were in danger and we were short of firearms.  I organised successfully and came back with firearms from Gadafi who resided in Thokoza.

MR SHAYI: When you say that you decided that you should go for firearms, did you personally take the initiatives or did you consult with this comrade Sinamela?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Myself as a leader or commander of the unit had a responsibility of taking care of anything that was in short supply.  I contacted the comrade beforehand and he agreed, knowing what the situation was like.

MR SHAYI: When you said "the comrade", are you referring to comrade Sinamela or this Gadafi?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I'm talking about comrade Sinamela who was above us in rank.

MR SHAYI: And then after reporting the said incident to comrade Sinamela, what instructions were given to you?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I explained the situation to comrade Sinamela, indicating to him that guns were lost and I indicated to him that I intent procuring other firearms. He agreed and he said provided I will find them at a good supply so that people are not endangered.

MR SHAYI: Did you at that stage have any contacts as far as firearms are concerned?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, I tried comrades around Soweto but I failed.  And before the 3rd of February 1993 we were at a night vigil at Spruit and that is where I met comrade Gadafi whom I had already met before and I discussed the matter with him and we agreed that we should meet on a particular day at Spruit.

MR SHAYI: This comrade Gadafi did agree to supply you with firearms?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: When I arrived at Spruit he indeed told me that guns were ready and available.

MR SHAYI: Now did you at any stage arrange with him on how the firearms should be collected and on what day?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: When I arrived at Spruit I had thought he would not have organised the guns when I got there.  We were travelling in a car that was not in a good condition and I explained to him that I would not be in a position to carry the guns in the car that was in such a bad condition and indicated to him that it's quite a distance from Thokoza to Soweto and should it happen that we are pursued by police along the way, they would definitely apprehend us and should we happen to come across a roadblock we would be arrested.  The car was a legal car and it was not safe to transport these guns in this kind of vehicle.

MR SHAYI: And then what solution was given to you by this comrade Gadafi or what decision did you come to to actually get you out of this dilemma?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Chairperson, let me indicate that Gadafi is not the one who made the decision.  I indicated to him that he should lend me his .38 which he did so that I could to and organise a vehicle that could transport the weapons.

MR SHAYI: Now when you moved from Soweto to Spruit, did you have a firearm in your possession?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: As I have explained before, Chairperson, we did not have firearms, we were only in the position to get hold of firearms when we arrived at Spruit after having met comrade Gadafi.  I think that's understandable.

MR SHAYI: And then after having been given this .38 and after having decided that you should go for an alternative transportation, what did you do?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: After having received this .38, Gadafi remained behind and he indicated that we will find him at a particular spot when we came back.  We moved around but we could not find what we were looking for and we went towards Gosforth Park.  	As we were approaching we went just behind the golf course where I saw a red Toyota Corolla Twin Cam and I observed that it was a roadworthy vehicle.
	At home I have a half-brother who fixes broken cars and I'm used to seeing to seeing roadworthy cards and I realised that that was a car that we could use for the mission.

MR SHAYI: And then were you on your own when you saw this Toyota Corolla?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: As I have explained, I indicated that "we", that means I was not alone, it was the driver, myself and another comrade.

MR SHAYI: And after seeing the motor vehicle, what did you do?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: After seeing the vehicle, myself as a person who is knowledgeable about vehicles, we walked past and, or should I say we drove past the area and took a different direction from the one from which we came and I indicated to one of my comrades to take the left direction.
	I went to speak to the driver, a white male and white female who was seemingly a passenger and I requested this person to please get out of the car and he reacted as if he understood what I was saying but he drew his firearm, a 9mm, he may have locked the safety pin, he tried to shoot, I side-stepped, there was nothing that I could have done and then I retaliated.

MR SHAYI: You retaliated by shooting back?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

MR SHAYI: Now at the time of the shooting at this white person, what was in your mind?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Myself as a kind person was not for the idea of shooting but the situation was such that I was forced to shoot.  Our lives were in danger and therefore I was forced to shoot.

MR SHAYI: Now did you hit this white man and the woman as well or was it just the white man?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I meant to shoot only the male but unfortunately the woman was also hit by a bullet.  I don't know whether it is the same bullet that I used to shoot the male.  The female died and the male got injured.

MR SHAYI: And at the time of your deserting or of your leaving with this Toyota Corolla ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can I interrupt?  I think the interpreter didn't quite understand what the applicant was saying because he interpreted different facts to us as to what the applicant is saying about who died and who survived.  He got them mixed up.  Can you just go over that testimony?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: ...[no English translation]

ADV GCABASHE: It was simply just getting the persons mixed up, who died and who survived, that's all.

MR SHAYI: Now Mr Manyamala, who was hit ...(intervention)

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Let me put it this way, I shot the male and he died.  The female was hit by what I can call a cross-bullet, she didn't die.