Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse shouldn't we then - I see there were three categories that were mentioned but I think in particular there were two that were important, that was documents which will not be used because it is the Commission's view that using them may lead to proliferation and those were documents no.9, 21 to 25 and 60.
 Then there was a second set of documents which I thought might be referred to in relation to which a ruling would be asked in terms of Section 33(2) that those should not be released to the public for publication, and I understood those documents to be documents no.4, 19 - 20, 24, 59, 65, 66, 71, 72, 74, 75 and 81.  That was placed on record.  There was a ruling in relation thereto and we stand guided by that ruling.
 Should we then not play it by ear.  You are here.  You know what documents are going to be a cause of concern and I am sure Mr Vally will also make sure that he wants to keep within the confines of the agreement.  I do not, I am sure no member of this panel wants to sensationalise this hearing to any degree than it appears to have been, and where there are agreements that are in place, and where the interests of the country to the extent that we have all recognised then to be at stake, I think all of us would like to be within the limits that we have placed upon ourselves.  And if we have to go the steps that are indicated by Mr du Plessis we would.  But for the moment I think we want to play it by hear even if there are others who might suggest that we are sailing close to the wind - which I believe we are not.
 Mr Vally - Mr Arendse does that leave you with any, what is it - cold comfort?

UNKNOWN: No I think we can proceed on that basis.  I was just going to - but my colleague assures me that the statement itself doesn't deal with or refer to the report.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

WENDY ORR: I was just going to suggest or ask you to give us a few minutes to look through the opening statement and take it from there.  But otherwise if we can proceed on the basis that you propose, my instructions are that we don't have a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Now how many minutes is a few minutes?

MR VALLY: Mr Chair just for the record I want to state that at the time we were talking to various arms of government, various officials, the agreement was that our expert, Professor Peter Folb, together with our other expert Commissioner Dr Wendy Orr, met with General Knobel and the documents that were excluded were by express agreement with General Knobel in terms of the various needs, and so General Knobel will be aware of which documents we will not be relying on which have to be excluded.  Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: General Knobel can we - or by the way how many minutes do you say you need?

UNKNOWN: Five apparently.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

UNKNOWN: Maybe the fax will be coming through ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I am thinking.  We may never get to hear tonight...  General do you want to say something?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes if I may Mr Chairman.  With regards to what Mr Vally has just said, it is quite true that we went through the process of deciding which documents should be excluded.  There are, however, one or two documents that have not been excluded and that I indicated at that session last week if I were going to have to answer questions on those documents, or explain the circumstances around those documents I could only do so if I could place it into perspective with regards to other documents which have now been excluded.  And I think that is important for the Committee to know that.  Thank you Sir.

MR VALLY: I confirm that General Knobel did in fact bring this to our attention at one of those meetings.
 Mr Chair are we standing down for a few minutes?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes let's just stand down for five minutes.  We resume at ten to ten.  It's just about tea time.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Can we use the next 30 minutes profitably Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: (s.u.o.)

MR VALLY: I believe General Knobel wants to read his statement into the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse I assume that you have looked at the statement and you are not ...(inaudible)

UNKNOWN: That's correct Chairperson, it's in order.

CHAIRPERSON: General Knobel.