Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Truly speaking, if Dlamini did not mention that here, or if that did not appear in his statement, I was going to use the same old statement that I did, I was not going to mention it either.   I'm very scared, I'm very much uncomfortable about this matter.   That is the whole truth.  If Dlamini did not mention this, I was going to use this statement freely, I still emphasise that, because even my age at the time, it shows that I did not know what was happening, therefore I was innocent, but I knew very well that I was not innocent.

CHAIRPERSON: Just speak very slowly, Mr Khubeka, just bear in mind that what you are saying has to be interpreted.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I apologise for that, it's because of the fact that I'm a bit scared.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   So is the position that, had it not been for Mr Dlamini, who told us what you did, you would not have told us what... (intervention).

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I was not going to tell you, that was going to be my secret alone, as the people who killed my brother, that remained their secret.   No-one today who came forward and said he did that, he's the one who burnt the house of Khubeka family and my brother was inside, that was going to be my secret, I emphasise that, that was going to be my secret alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the fact that when a person is seeking amnesty, he has to tell us the truth?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I heard about that, even my mother, she used to tell me that while she was still alive, and she told me that, "If you go there, my son, go to tell the people about what you know", I just looked at her and I ignored her.   She thinks that I can go and tell the people that I killed a child so that the people could look at me as a bad person, I told myself that I'll never do that.   Today I came here, but my mother is no more and I have no-one else to rely or to lean on, that is why I decided to come here and tell the truth.   If there were something else, if there were something else to prove that a person is telling the truth, I would even use that alternative to prove that I was telling the truth.   I am telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: So is the position that you were prepared to let this committee decide your application on the basis of a statement which you knew was not the truth?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Will you please repeat the question, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to explain this to you in Zulu.   (Interpreter interprets from Zulu - Were you prepared to come to this committee to seek amnesty, having done a statement...) no, on the basis of a statement, (...on the basis of a statement knowing very well that what is in the statement is not true?)

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: (And you did all that...)

INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: (You were prepared to do all this, because you said you were too scared?)

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I still maintain that I was prepared to do that, but now Mr Dlamini came here and revealed that, I had no alternative, I have to tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: (As we now know that you were prepared to hide the truth until Mr Dlamini came forward and tell us what the truth was, what proof do we have that there is nothing else that you are still holding?)

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: The proof that you have, I hope that it's what I'm going to be saying now, because there's nothing else that I'm holding now, there's nothing else in my heart, I'm prepared to tell the truth.   I don't have enmity in my heart now, I'm here to tell the truth, I would request you to believe me.   I did kill that child.   Even the mother is still crying even today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, thank you, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I see it's six past one, if I can get an indication if I must carry on now or after lunch?

CHAIRPERSON: How long is it going to take you to wrap up your evidence in chief?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, it's going to take a little bit longer, because there's this other statement I must also deal with, so I would say it will take another, say, 20 minutes, that's roughly estimated.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.   Yes.   Shall we take an adjournment?   What time should we come back?

MR STRYDOM: My suggestion is two o'clock.   The service at this restaurant here is very bad, if we order something now, we can only get it marginally before two.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay, we will take the lunch adjournment now and we will come back at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: And may I also remind you that when you give evidence, bear in mind that the interpreters are interpreting what you are saying, so speak slowly so that they can have time to interpret everything you are saying.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: Just before you proceed, Mr Strydom, with regard to the HLV statement, I'm sure that you've read it to your client previously, I would just like to try and avoid us spending too much...(END OF TAPE 2 - WORDS LOST - TAPE 3 COMMENCES) ...I noticed there are some portions of it that obviously relate to Boipatong.   Would it not be possible to just put those aspects to him and let him confirm them and then we can move on without too much ado.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Mr Lax, it was not my intention to go through the whole statement, I just want to - I want him to testify about portions of that statement.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: (cont)
	Mr Khubeka, you testified that Mr Dlamini gave evidence that you'd killed a child and that's why you now admit that you killed a child.  Now the question I want to ask you, did you hide anything else, just merely because there was no evidence to implicate you?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, not at all, nothing at all.

MR STRYDOM: Would it make a difference to you, Mr Khubeka, if you admit that you killed one or, say, three people, at this stage?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I do not quite understand the question?

MR STRYDOM: The question is that you gave reasons why you did not earlier said that you killed a child.   Now that you've admitted that you killed a person, would it make a difference to you at this stage to admit that you've killed more people if you have done so?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, that can make a difference, but I did not kill many people, I only killed one person, a child.

MR STRYDOM: In your evidence you said that the house where you killed the child was situated towards the end of your journey through Boipatong.   I want you to have a look at Exhibit J, the map... (intervention).

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I didn't say it was towards the end at Boipatong, I said the house in which I put in a burning tyre is right inside Boipatong towards the end, but I cannot recall the house where I killed the house (sic), but I think it may be the same street.   I did not talk about a house at the end of the township where I killed a child.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, okay.   Do you understand the map, if you look at now, as it's being shown to you?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I do understand the map.

MR STRYDOM: Now I firstly want to ask you, there where you put the burning tyre into the house, can you indicate on this map the vicinity where that happened, the area?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I can show you.

MR STRYDOM: Just go ahead.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: It is the house here, at the corner.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the house, it's been indicated it's the house right on the corner of Bafakena and Schloebe Street, the number is 734.   And there where you killed the child, can you show us where that is, more or less?