Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: ... you have had ample opportunity to discuss these matters with, for instance, Mr Vally. Have you ever told him this version?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I never told it to anyone.  I told the very perpetrators.

MR VALLY: If I may just interrupt. I certainly haven't had any meeting or discussion with this witness, until he appeared today.  The statements that I have had have been presented to me by our investigative unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: No , what I was trying to refer to, Chairperson, with respect, was not Mr Vally personally. That the witness  has had an opportunity  with the TRC to describe the issues. Has he ever mentioned this story or not?

JOHN MORGAN: I'm talking today because they said they wanted the truth, and this is where I can speak the truth.   How much more can I do?  Must I hide?

MR SEMENYA: ... an answer to my question.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that is the final answer.

MR SEMENYA: Have you ever told this version to any newspaper?

JOHN MORGAN: No.

MR SEMENYA: Did you tell this story to Bridgland, the author of the book?

JOHN MORGAN: Who's Bridgland?

MR SEMENYA: The man from the United States who wrote the book.

JOHN MORGAN: Who's that?  Where is he?

MR SEMENYA: Did you speak with some person from England who was writing a book, because you seem to be quoted?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I've never spoken to anyone who wrote or writes a book. This is the first time I have spoken.  I've never spoken to anyone from England.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know that there is a book in which you are quoted to be saying various things?

JOHN MORGAN: No, there's no such book.  Not me, maybe another Morgan, but not me.

MR SEMENYA: So, according to Mr Morgan, Bridgland must have sucked it elsewhere other than from you?

JOHN MORGAN: Which book are you referring to?  Because this document you have put before me is a fabricated document.  I don't know anything about this document.  You people are just coming up with things.

MR SEMENYA: ... know about it?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I don't know anything about any book.  Which book is that?

MR SEMENYA: There is a section of your statement where you say the Mandela Football Club used to force girls to do things.  Do you recall that aspect of your statement?

JOHN MORGAN: I've said that just now, but I never wrote a book with regard to that.

MR SEMENYA: You deny that you made a statement to the TRC to say the girls were forced to do things?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I still do say that is a now.

MR SEMENYA: Now can I show you the original statement that you made. Maybe Mr Vally can give it to us.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, show me.

MR VALLY: Does Mr Semenya want me to find a handwritten one if possible? I'll

MR SEMENYA: Just so that I don't put a document which the witness won't recognise.

MR VALLY: I'll try and track it down, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms  Sigat(?), do you have a copy of the statement?

MS SITA: Yes, Mr Chair, I do have a copy.

MR SEMENYA: Can we probably use your statement now?

MS SITA: It is not an original handwritten one, but it is a typed copy, would that suffice?

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, I'm told that the statement was dictated to our Ms Groenewald, who wrote it down and then typed it out.  So it wasn't handwritten by Mr Morgan himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but is it available?  Is this one in our files?

MR VALLY: It's the one that is in front of Mr Morgan right now.

CHAIRPERSON: It is the one in our files?

MR VALLY: The one in the files is a typed version thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: But, I mean, we are talking about the same document really. Excellent!

MR VALLY: It includes his ID number and address.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are, yes.

MR SEMENYA: May the witness be shown the part of the statement where he is alleged on that statement to say the girls were... (intervention) were forced to do things.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just help me in the statement to find the portion?

JOHN MORGAN: I said that.  Yes, it is true, I'm repeating it for the second time again.  Must I deny that?  No, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean, let's just wait now.  He says he said that.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Morgan, why did you deny just now that you said that?

JOHN MORGAN: I never denied it.  I did submit a statement.

MR SEMENYA: Now let's just get the data, which women were forced to do things?

JOHN MORGAN: ... (indistinct) the students from Dube.

MR SEMENYA: What things were they forced to do?

JOHN MORGAN: They took them into the house. (Speaker requested to speak close to the mike.)

MR SEMENYA: Were you present when the girls were done the things you describe?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I was. I was staying there.

MR SEMENYA: Where was it that these girls were done the things you say?

JOHN MORGAN: In Orlando West, Number 81995, Nakane Street, that's where these things happened.

MR SEMENYA: It was in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

JOHN MORGAN: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Have you ever gone to report this thing to the police?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I never did.  Why would I report that?  Because I was going to be referred to as an impimpi.

MR SEMENYA: I was trying to track down your evidence.  As far as I have been able to assess, you are the first person who states that they saw Stompie on the fourth day after the date of his assault.  Is this factually correct?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Where do you see him on the fourth day after the date of his assault?

JOHN MORGAN: I saw him in the room.  They were wiping off the blood from the wall so that the forensic laboratory wouldn't find any traces of blood.  But they came and they found traces of blood.  Now I'm asking whether she does have the report from the forensic laboratory.

MR SEMENYA: ... you seem to say that Dr Asvat treated Stompie?  Do you say it matter of factly?

JOHN MORGAN: I never said that.  He didn't want to touch him.  Dr Asvat said Stompie was seriously needed to be taken to the hospital. I never said he treated him.

MR SEMENYA: Did you hear Dr Asvat say Stompie must be taken ... (intervention)

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Morgan, I had asked you to give the attorney a chance to finish his questions so that you would be able to answer properly.  Even if you want to answer the question, please do wait for him to finish it off.

MR SEMENYA: ...asking that you did hear yourself personally Dr Asvat says Stompie must be taken to hospital?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Can I show you part of your statement where you make reference to this aspect?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Maybe with the assistance of the lady there, on page four of the typewritten statement.

JOHN MORGAN: I do see the statement.

MR SEMENYA: You say, "I heard from Slash that Dr Asvat had been there". Did you tell this to the investigating officers?

JOHN MORGAN: Who's the investigating officer?

MR SEMENYA: ... somebody working for the TRC.

JOHN MORGAN: I never said that ... (rest not translated)

MR SEMENYA: Do you know where they get this version from?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I don't know where they get that from.

MR SEMENYA: It was definitely not you speaking?

JOHN MORGAN: Who? Who said that.

MR SEMENYA: ... it says, "Slash, that is, said Dr Asvat had wanted to take Stompie straight to hospital.  I was worried about this young boy". Did you say that?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I did say that because he was injured.  I did utter these words that he should be taken to the hospital because he was seriously injured.  His whole face was swollen and his hands were injured.

MR SEMENYA: Do you say, Slash said Dr Asvat wanted to take Stompie straight to hospital?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I said it.

MR SEMENYA: ... the story from Slash or you heard it yourself?

JOHN MORGAN: I heard it the previous day ... Yes, I heard when Asvat ... when Winnie spoke to him for the second time, that was
[Side of Tape ends] the following day.