Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-22

MR BERGER: And am I correct also that Iscor set up strict controls around the hostel during that three week period?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I would agree with you that Iscor - you would not do whatever you wanted to do because the police were there and Iscor again contributed to that strict control.

MR BERGER: And so both the police and Iscor, during that period, had strict controls in place and monitored who was entering and who was leaving the hostel, would I be right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now after you were arrested, where were you taken to?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was taken to Vereeniging Police Station.

MR BERGER: And from there, were you taken to a prison?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: They said they were taking us to Sasol(?) Prison, then they didn't get access, then they took me to Sun City Prison.  That is Soweto Prison which is usually called Sun City.

MR BERGER: And how long were you at Sun City?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I did not finish a month there.  I would estimate that period to be plus-minus two weeks.

MR BERGER: And were you then released?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was transferred to John Vorster Square.

MR BERGER: From John Vorster Square, where did you go?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was taken to Germiston or another police station where I was tortured.  I don't remember as to whether it is Germiston or what police station it was.

MR BERGER: How long were you kept in custody for?  Were you kept in custody right until your trial?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I was in John Vorster Square.  They would pick me up early in the morning and then they would return me after until we were taken to Pretoria.

MR BERGER: So do I understand you correctly, that after your arrest in 1992, you were never released on bail pending your trial?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I was released on bail.  I don't remember which year but I was given bail when I was in Pretoria.

MR BERGER: Was this before the trial, that you got bail?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.  ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: We didn't get that interpretation.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I attended the case whilst on bail.

MR BERGER: You can't remember the date when you got bail, or even the month?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I don't remember, I've forgotten.

MR BERGER: Was it in 1992 or 1993 or 1994?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I think it is in 1992.

MR BERGER: And then where did you go once you got bail?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I returned to KwaMadala hostel.

MR BERGER: And did you stay at KwaMadala hostel throughout the trial?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: I have a note here, Mr Magubane, which says that you met Sergeant Peens after Getisi was killed, you met Peens for the first time after Getisi was killed.  Is my note right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I said I met Peens.  On the day when Getisi was killed I was arrested with him and on that night he was killed.  Getisi found me found me at the investigative unit offices.  I was not able to discuss anything with him.  That is the first time I knew Peens.

MR BERGER: What were you arrested for?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: We were arrested under Article 50.  We were taken to the cells not knowing what we were arrested for.  We stayed there for days.

MR BERGER: Were you arrested together with Getisi or did you just meet him at the police station?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was arrested with his mother and a certain boy called Taki.  We were arrested in KwaMadala hostel.

MR BERGER: That's Darkie Chonco?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You were taken to the police station, would that be Vanderbijl Park?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, we were taken to Vanderbijl Park Police Station.

MR BERGER: And you say Getisi was brought into the police station as well that day?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He was brought to the police station after we were arrested for two days.  He arrived at the investigative unit offices.

MR BERGER: And it was on that day that Getisi died?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, he died on that night.  The day when he arrived, he died the very same night.

MR BERGER: Were you present when he died?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was not present.  He died at night but I don't know where he was killed.

MR BERGER: And did you meet Peens for the first time - did you see Peens for the first time at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I saw him for the first time in that office.

MR BERGER: I have a note which reads, from your earlier evidence yesterday, that Peens took you from your room in the hostel.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: So then you couldn't have met him for the first time in the office at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station, could you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: You must understand me for I did not know the time when he took me from KwaMadala hostel in my room.  I knew that it was Peens when we were at Vanderbijl Park Police Station.  That is the person who took me from my room in KwaMadala hostel, then when we arrived at Vanderbijl Park, that is when I knew that is Peens because other policemen were calling his name.

MR BERGER: I asked you when was the first time that you saw Peens.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but Mr Berger, is this going to take us anywhere?  The witness says when Peens came to arrest him he didn't know that this was Peens, it was only at the police station that he came to know that this is Peens.  I think the record speaks for itself in that regard.  We know what question you've put and we know his answer.  We know the explanation.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect, this witness' relationship with Peens is important to the issues in this case.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that, but I think the point has been made.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, through you, could I ask for another one of these boxes?

MR LAX: Yes, and we need another transmitter.

MR BERGER: And a new headphone, this has been put together with sticky tape.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magubane, when you speak would you please give the interpreter time to interpret because what you are saying is being interpreted to at least two other languages.  So just give him time so that he can interpret everything that you say.  Do you understand that?
	Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	How many times have you been arrested?  I know that you were arrested in June/July 1992 after the massacre, you say you were arrested a day or two before Victor Keswa was killed, and kept at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station.  Were you arrested at any other times?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I was arrested about other things, for other things.

MR BERGER: I'm not talking about before 1992, I'm talking about after the massacre.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I was many times, many times.

MR BERGER: After this occasion with the arrest two days before the death of Mr Victor Keswa, were you arrested again?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was arrested for robbing a policeman in town.

MR BERGER: You are presently in jail, we know that, what I want to ask you is, how long have you been in custody?  I don't know if you understand the question but, you've been arrested on a number of occasions, I want to know, from the last time that you were arrested, when was that and how long have you been in custody?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: You mean about political cases or do you mean about robbery and theft?  I was arrested for theft and robbery many times.

MR BERGER: You got arrested, then you got released, you got arrested, then you got released?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: But you're now permanently in jail?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR BERGER: How long have you been there?