Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Sigasa, are you saying in short, you have given us a very lengthy answer to what is being put to you.  You are saying in short that the Wimpy attack was in line with the ANC policy?  That seems to be the crux of the problem?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Because of the target of interest, yes, it is.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.  You may proceed Mr Steenkamp.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You see my information is and if needs be, a sworn statement to the effect will be handed in to the Committee, that just across the Wimpy Bar, there was what at that stage was known as a Police kiosk, it was a small shop that was hired by the Police as a kiosk, just across the Wimpy Bar.
	Now, my question to you is first of all, do you agree with me, and secondly, why didn't you attack the kiosk and not the Wimpy Bar?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know there was a kiosk?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, we didn't.

ADV STEENKAMP: But sir, then I don't understand your evidence in chief, you said on numerous occasions and on questions, at least two questions of the Chairperson himself, that your information was verified.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: You had numerous meetings?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: So, if your information was verified, how does it come, or how is it possible that you didn't know about this kiosk at all?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Steenkamp, before you answer, isn't that an unfair question to put to Mr Sigasa?  His evidence in chief has been that the information that was verified was the information that was received from Mr Ndlovu through his reconnaissance and that information did not purport to say anything about the presence of the kiosk?

ADV STEENKAMP: Right, I will leave the question there Mr Chairman.
	I also has come to my information, my information is and it is not verified as of yet, we are in the process, but the Police station was not very close to the Wimpy Bar, as you said, plus minus 200 metres.  It was more or less a kilometre from the Wimpy Bar?  Would you agree with that?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I said I think the Advocate is twisting my words, I am not sure whether deliberately or not, what I said was that it was more than 200 kilometres, and in fact several metres away.  That is what I said.
	So to say 200 metres, I say it is more than that - than several metres away.

ADV STEENKAMP: At the day of the incident, you had planned this incident, you have made reconnaissance, you had numerous meetings, so I take it at the day of this incident, at twelve o'clock, you had verified information that there were going to be Security Police at the Wimpy Bar, am I right?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Absolutely.  Not also to add, not ordinary Policemen.  I think that should be clear.  As we said, that we termed it the notorious Special Branch.  The Headquarters of the Special Branch, Springs, Boksburg and so on, in fact it is its Headquarters, the Special Branch.
	As a result of that, the impact or the degree of the action and its impact or the results, they were important for us to identify that target and hit them where they were vulnerable.  For your own information, the information that you received, not only were they meeting, that top brass that we were referring to, even the informers were met in that Wimpy Bar.
	Burgers were bought for detainees in that Wimpy Bar.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry sir, my question was purely this, so you had information that at twelve o'clock that Saturday morning, specific Security Branch Police would visit that Wimpy Bar?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No.

ADV STEENKAMP: Because that is how I understood your evidence?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you misunderstood his evidence.

ADV STEENKAMP: I am sorry Mr Chairman.  Maybe I must rephrase the question.  Why did you specifically decide to attack the Wimpy Bar at that specific Saturday at twelve o'clock, why specifically that day and that time?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Well firstly, firstly the Security personnel as we indicated, they work seven days a week, every day, and on Saturdays they meet to hand in reports and so on and so forth, their daily duties and so forth, and after that of course, they would go for the dining and so on, for lunches and so on.  We had that information.
	As to who and how many, we didn't know that, but we knew that there were Policemen, particularly the senior people, meeting in that.  Secondly, on that day, we also indicated in our main submission that it was in fact a commemoration of the anniversary of the South African Communist Party on the 30th of July.

ADV STEENKAMP: My information is also that the Benoni Wimpy Bar was actually the last Wimpy Bar to be attacked in this type of fashion?  This specific Wimpy Bar attack was the last Wimpy Bar attacked, that was attacked in the spade of Wimpy Bar attacks?

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: I don't know about that.  That is news to me and I believe also it is news also to the fellow applicants.  That is news.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You can only speak for yourself Mr Sigasa.

ERNEST PHUMUZI SIGASA: Oh yes, I am speaking for myself, that is news.

ADV STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that you were well aware that there is a real possibility that a large number of people would have been killed in that Wimpy Bar, would be black people because I can tell you as a matter of fact, that more than 20 people, more than 20 people in that Wimpy Bar were black people who were injured?
	The majority of them were workers, who were working in the Wimpy Bar, so you knew very well beforehand that they were going to be injured or even killed?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevance of that question Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: The fact is Mr Chairman, if you look at some of the other applications, they are referring to a white only attack.  My question to this applicant mainly is this, they were aware that other civilians, normal civilians would also be killed?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Steenkamp, hasn't this point been sufficiently covered?

ADV STEENKAMP: I will leave the question there, thank you Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Because I think if I recall, it has been covered by yourself previously and also by the members of the panel.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, thank you for the indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED