Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: And he then - when he was told by the TRC to give more details as to the state - as to these statements, mentioned that you were not involved in the burning of the house of Rebecca.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I heard him speaking of Sandra Mathabathe's house, that he burnt that house together with his friends.  I think that's how he explained and if I'm not wrong but I heard him speak of Sandra Mathabathe's house - that he burnt Sandra Mathabathe's house together with his friends.

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm not sure - what point are we making here, I'm not so sure I understand.

ADV MEMANI: The point that I wish to make to him is that when he was given the opportunity to explain his statements, he then explained the statement and he exculpates you from the bombing of the house of Sandra Mathabathe.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't think the witness would have a problem
with that but then what is the point beyond that?

ADV MEMANI: The point is that the applicant did not set out forcibly to implicate him.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know how to respond to that because the paper which you showed me, he implicated us - that we were together with him.   What I want to explain to the Committee is that all things which he said, I don't know them all.  If they happened, they happened because he did those things but in all those things I didn't take part and I was not present.

ADV MEMANI: You deny involvement in ...[intervention]

HENDRIK BOKABA: I deny involvement in any way.

ADV MEMANI: And I'm saying to you that if Ngo wanted to implicate you forcibly, he would have persisted in the story that he burnt the house of Sandra together with you.  When the occasion arose for him to explain things, he did mention that you were not involved in the burning of the house of Sandra.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, can you take that as an admission that what was stated in Bundle C about the fact that Captain Bokaba was present during the burning of the house of Sandra, was clearly a wrong statement and that he has now given us the truth on page 45 of Bundle A, which is the application which was withdrawn?  I don't understand the question of my learned friend, all I can see is my
learned friend is quoting to the disparity in his client's evidence about this incident and who was involved and it seems to me that he's making a remission in the question that he's asking.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think Mr Ngo said, consider that he did make a mistake.  I know he took a lot of trouble before he made such a concession but he did eventually concede that he made a mistake here.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I'm just - I know that, that was done in his evidence, I just want to make sure that my learned friend is making that admission now in the question and I'm just pointing that out Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How much more of an admission do you want Mr du Plessis?  I mean, if the witness himself, under oath admitted that, well I made that mistake ...[intervention]

MR DU PLESSIS: Well, it's now two admissions Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now what is your comment to the fact that as soon as the opportunity arose for Mr Ngo to ...[inaudible] yourself, he did so and he did say that you were not involved in the burning of the house of Sandra?

HENDRIK BOKABA: That I didn't take part in the burning of Mathabathe's house?  I don't understand well.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The point that is being made is this, that - you see, initially Mr Ngo said you were involved in Sandra's case, now later he
admitted that he made a mistake and he absolved you and because he absolved you with regard to Sandra's case therefore, the fact that he does not absolve you in regard to the others, it shows that you probably were there.  I think that's the essence of the question.

HENDRIK BOKABA: No Sir, let me explain it this way, even if he said that I took part and then he absolved me, it was a lie because I didn't take part in all these houses, in the bombing of these house and then again I never worked with him Mr Chairperson, at all times.

ADV MEMANI: It's a convenient time Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, on page 43 of Bundle A, your client states
"during 1987 to 1988, while I was based at Mamelodi police station as a member of reaction unit 19, working together with members of the security branch"
He doesn't state that he was a member of the security branch, he states that:
"as a member of reaction unit 19, working together with members of the security branch"
Perhaps you could think it over during the adjournment and then advise us as to your view on this.

ADV MEMANI: Well, it shouldn't...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

HENDRIK BOKABA: (s.u.o.)

ADV MEMANI: Mr Bokaba, you know Doctor Ribero, don't you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I know him Sir.

ADV MEMANI: You know his son Chris Ribero, don't you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I know Chris Ribero Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And you did investigate Chris Ribero's activities, didn't you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I never investigated his case.

ADV MEMANI: You did monitor Ribero - Chris Ribero, didn't you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: We never monitored his movements.  I'm talking about myself.

ADV MEMANI: Who monitored Chris Ribero?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, what is the relevance of this, with respect?

ADV MEMANI: It's coming.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope it is.  You will remember that you told us last week that you would be 30 minutes to an hour this morning.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know the person who was monitoring Chris Ribero.

ADV MEMANI: Just one second for me Sir.  And you know Solit Silwane, don't you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know him.

ADV MEMANI: Solit Silwane was your informer.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know him Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Solit Silwane is the person you got information about Chris Ribero from.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know Solit Silwane, don't force it upon my throat please.

ADV MEMANI: And Solit Silwane was an informer you saw jointly with Ngo and Selahla.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, is there going to be evidence about this?  That wasn't testified by Mr Ngo.  I object against this question.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that evidence is forthcoming, attempts are being made to locate people who might corroborate this.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me explain it this way in front of your face, I don't know Solit Silwane, then I said I never worked with Ngo, I worked with Danny Selahla.  I never handled a source called Solit Silwane.

ADV MEMANI: And you, Ngo and Selahla often went to Doctor Ribero's house to monitor the people who were living there.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I never entered Doctor Ribero's house.  I know Doctor Ribero's house just by passing by.   I was a patient of Doctor Ribero whilst I was working at Mamelodi police station in the uniform branch.

ADV MEMANI: And my instructions further that you, Ngo and Selahla often raided people together.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just make sure.  My learned friend says there will be evidence ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said: "my instructions are", didn't he?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, he said, his instructions are, Mr Chairman.  Then I want to make the point that, that was never testified but I will leave it in your hands to allow the question or not.

ADV MEMANI: Now, what is your answer?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I never worked with Ngo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, he's told us that so many times, I don't think you are going to trick him by putting again and again and again that he did things with Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: Sir, it is not my strategy to trick witnesses, what I do is to put the version that I hope will be established or lay a basis for argument.
	Now Mr Bokaba, let's go to your statement at B46, paragraph 6.2.  Now, before I ask you the questions, you do understand English, don't you?