Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.  But if one may, you just understand sometimes, and this is what we tried to explain to the police, that you put in the name of the mortuary.  For example if you go to day to Gale Street mortuary, the bodies are just tagged by a number.
	If for some reason or other, the bodies from Stanger and bodies from Durban are being carried in the same van, you might mix them up, so a better practice would be to put the mortuary name down next to the number and call it Durban PM1155 as opposed to Phoenix PM1155.
	But with due respect, each mortuary works and continues its work as if it is the only mortuary in the world.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, one would think if I was a police or if somebody was a police attendant at the Stanger mortuary and he has to write a number, he would for two reasons write Stanger PM such and such, rather than Groutville PM such and such, one because Stanger would be correct and two, because it is shorter to write.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: That is right.

MR VISSER: Putting it bluntly, here is a problem with identification, isn't here?  You cannot tell us, you are speculating because you don't know?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Identification of the body by means of the tag?

MR VISSER: We have a brand new piece of evidence by you which we heard for the first time today, that there was an identification of a PM1155 from Gale Street?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: That would be very simply clarified by asking Insp Andrew Hadi Moolan to actually indicate whether that body did come and originate at his mortuary.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Would you imagine that this body PM1155 from wherever was sent to Gale Street for X-rays?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: It wasn't sent to Gale Street for an X-ray, it was sent to Gale Street for my attention.

MR VISSER: How do you know that?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: It was pre-arranged.

MR VISSER: Is that the only, so you are speaking from recollection?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes, before the exhumation actually was carried out, I was asked to do this case.  I asked Dr Aiyer to do the exhumation for me and arrange for the transport to Gale Street, via Stanger mortuary.

MR VISSER: All right.  Any particular reason why an X-ray wasn't done?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I did an X-ray.

MR VISSER: You did an X-ray?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Well, I did an X-ray after I found the bullet.

MR VISSER: I didn't ask you when, I simply asked you did you do an X-ray?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I did an X-ray to show up the density of the bullet.

MR VISSER: Okay, that is not the X-ray I am talking about.  What would the normal X-ray be all about that we heard from Mr Ismail about?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: That would be X-ray plates.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Prominent plates.  Those were not done.

MR VISSER: Was that done in this case?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: No.

MR VISSER: You say that you cannot remember whether the bag was sealed, which bag are you referring to?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: The bag, the blue body bag in which I had received this entire compliment of material.

MR VISSER: Yes.  All right.  Would I be correct in assuming that if the body bag in which the remains were found in the grave, had been carefully lifted and placed in this blue plastic bag that you refer to, that none of the contents would have gone lost, either there or in transportation, because it would have been inside this blue plastic?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Well, one thing I can say that I cannot really comment, I wasn't there at the exhumation, that is one thing, so I wouldn't be able to say.  The other thing I can say is that I can vouch for the quality of the exhumation done by somebody like Dr Aiyer.  That is the reason I asked him to do it.  He is particularly meticulous in his work, and if I were to suggest, I would think that he would have removed the complete remains from the coffin or the ...(indistinct) that it was in.

MR VISSER: That is what you would have expected, yes?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Okay.   When you opened whatever bag, you saw first of all what we see on figure 1 of Exhibit R, the photograph?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Predominantly a maroonish fabric laying on top, if I may put it that way?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And as I understand your evidence, when you investigated further, you found what inside, all the bones, all the remains?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Well, as I gave evidence ...

MR VISSER: Or some?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I found most of the bones.

MR VISSER: Most?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Bones.  Not the soft tissue.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So that would be, if one assumed that that is what Dr Aiyer found, that would be an additional reason to believe that all the bones of this skeleton would have been present when you opened the bag?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes, allowing for fragile disintegration into dust, because to be correct, that is exactly how the bones were, so fragile.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Apart from the remains of dust, they were largely complete.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: If I may just add there, if bones were missing, it was probably because of inadequate recovery at the very original examination, before the very original examination, more than ten years earlier.

MR VISSER: If bones were missing?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: If any bones were missing yes, such as the small bones of the feet and hand.

MR VISSER: But doctor, I thought that you found no anti-mortem fractures of bones?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.  Well, apart from the gunshot wound, no injury to the bones that I could reliably state, were definitely ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: Yes, so I don't understand your answer that they could have been lost in 1987?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Well, I am commenting on those bones that we had, which were largely a complete set.

MR VISSER: But please explain this to me, because I understood you to say that you found no anti-mortem fractures, now you are assuming that there would have been because you say in 1987, no bones would have gone lost.  How would they have gone lost, if there weren't fractures at that stage?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: All right.  Let me just clarify that.  Of the bones I examined, I found, which were largely a complete set, save for some small bones of the feet and hand, those bones, apart from the gunshot wound in the skull, showed injuries predominantly to the right forearm, ribs and the pelvis which I determined to be more than likely post-mortem.

MR VISSER: We will come to that.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: And I didn't think that any of them were anti-mortem fractures.

MR VISSER: Yes.  We will come to that issue.  I was just trying to understand why you suspected that there might be a possibility that some bones might have been lost in 1987, but let's leave that at that.
	As far as ...

MR LAX: Sorry, shouldn't you clarify this matter, rather than leaving it hanging in the air.  I certainly want to know why you say it is possible that bones might have got lost in 1987.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Well, a largely complete set, that means for example three ...(indistinct) vertebrae means that I found just three.

MR VISSER: Instead of?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Instead of seven.  One ...(indistinct) - I am reading on page 25, page 2 of my report, cervical vertebrae, nine ...(indistinct) vertebrae, that is nine out of twelve.  I am reading on the third paragraph.  Four lumber vertebrae, that is four out of five.  And then I read one phalanx of the big toe, right at the bottom.  One ...(indistinct) and one phalanx, that is the ...

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: One phalanx out of fourteen.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: ...(indistinct), there is one ...(indistinct) on either side.