Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

ADV GCABASHE: So really the whole thing about disruption of the elections or stopping the elections as you put it, what essentially amounted to acts of terror, terrorist acts between the 24th and 27th is something you essentially got from Barnard, it's not something you came up with when you came up from home?

MR LE ROUX: No Chairperson the bombs themselves, I knew nothing of them before the time.  I was willing to plant bombs if I had to do it but I didn't even know where.  I didn't know anything about the bombs up until the 23rd.

ADV GCABASHE: What I'm trying to understand, and if you could help me with this, is where the terrorist actions, if one might call them, the acts of terror 24th to the 27th and the ideal of the AWB to create a Volkstaat for it's people, how you marry the two - can I just finish because it's something I still don't understand.  These acts of terror, as I understand it were not part of the general plan of the AWB and correct me if I am wrong, the AWB said essentially, we will not be ruled by a Black government and certainly not by an ANC/SACP government, the day that happens there is going to be a general uprising of all our people because we will not be ruled by these people, we believe in self determination.

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now on the 24th there had been no ANC government, it was left to chance essentially.  Yet that is where your first act of terror, where your involvement comes in, that's where your first act of terror starts.  The AWB objective had not been created, or rather the environment for that uprising had not been created yet, you didn't know who was going to take over, the NP could have won that election?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson I was under the impression that the AWB did have complete plans to negotiate for a Volkstaat, I thought that and that was my opinion at that stage.  I was part of the planning, I didn't know about the complete planning but on my level I knew that we were called up and that were going to take part in certain operations.  I did not know what was the broader planning of the Staff Generals or of General Constand Viljoen or the CP, I did not know anything about that, but I knew they had plans, they were busy with it and that they wanted to establish a Volkstaat in that area.

ADV GCABASHE: I can understand that, you see I group underneath what I would call your political motivation, it was there, you were politically motivated but it' the objective that you as a member were working towards, were trying to achieve and it's those dates the 24th to the 27th, particularly the 24th.  Where does the motivation and the, where do they conflate, where do they meet each other, you as a person as participating in this.

MR LE ROUX: I saw it like this:  The Ystergarde was a specialist unit of the AWB and they would have, or the operations that needed more experience, they would then execute them.  They would not take part in the normal operations which for example the Wen Kommando would take part in so that is where I said or thought if they wanted bombs to be planted, this is probably part of the process of the broader plan of the AWB.

ADV GCABASHE: And you would therefore say you weren't simply acting as a group of spoilers, spoiling a process you know you essentially couldn't change, you know which is different to being organised as AWB members preferring a particular objective, you know the spoiler image and the military organised AWB image?

MR LE ROUX: We were highly motivated political ideals.

ADV GCABASHE: The last aspect, which is slightly different is, you know when I look at the documents we have before us and I'm looking at everything, not just your application, the targets that Bree Street area essentially, by 1994 a whole group of, many Black people were living in that Bree Street, Park Station, Hillbrow area essentially.  You will agree with that?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I am aware of that Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Right.  Germiston, the taxi rank, largely Black people again who milled about that area be it on a Sunday or a Tuesday?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Then I look at some of these Randfontein attacks, I know you weren't involved in those, Black areas.  Now I understood you to say that you weren't part of, or you didn't subscribe to apartheid as such, you subscribed to self determination, you try and separate the two.  Why, if I look at these documents before us and the applications before us, why these Black areas, Black targets, when I look at all of them here.  You know the only ones that I would say was not a Black area per se was the then Jan Smuts Airport and you go and take great care to go an put your bomb in an underground parking area.  You know with all the others you make sure that it's in a very obvious area where there will be maximum damage, but with the Black areas you choose, it's specific to those areas and yet you are not, it's not a racial war you say you're fighting.  You know your focus is on self determination in line with you and documents and all kinds of other things.

MR LE ROUX: That is not my view of the targets, but I would say the basic idea was that most of the Black people do belong to the ANC and that could have been the motivation behind this.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly then if you say that the whole incident of incidents were targeted at the ANC?

MR LE ROUX: No, no Mr Chairperson.  We had two enemies, that was the National Party government and the ANC who we knew would come into power.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was directed at the ANC.

MR LE ROUX: Also at the ANC yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes you see yesterday I understood you to say really it's the NP government that was selling you out, that that really was your major target, NP government that was selling you out and yes coincidentally, at this stage between the 24th and the 27th, those were the people you were trying to deal with and you would deal with the ANC government should it take power.  Now on the 24th why go for Black area, you see this is what I keep grappling with ...(intervention)

MR LE ROUX: That was not a specifically Black are Mr Chairperson, the Bree Street area.  There could have been more Black people but like I explained earlier on the reason for the bomb was basically go to Johannesburg, plant a bomb and come out as soon as possible and that was the principle.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, maybe I should leave it at that.  Thank you Mr Le Roux.

MR LE ROUX: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Le Roux when you began with your evidence you said that you come from a very conservative family, what do you mean by that?

MR LE ROUX: Conservative in lifestyle and my father was also a government man.  I was brought up and we were proud to serve in the Defence Force.  We went to airforce shows etc.  We supported the country, we were patriotic and regarding that conservative.

CHAIRPERSON: As it was under apartheid?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now tell me, when you were informed that certain bombs must be planted at certain places or areas, did you question this, you yourself?

MR LE ROUX: I did discuss it, especially with Barnard.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you if you questioned it?

MR LE ROUX: No not as such Mr Chairperson, I saw it as an order that we must execute and I saw myself as part of the much larger plan.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know what that larger plan was?

MR LE ROUX: No I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you then see yourself as part of a larger plan if you don't know what the plan was?

MR LE ROUX: From the stage we regularly got the principles of what it was about and that there would be a revolution.

CHAIRPERSON: Especially, did you discuss the political results of these events and did you question them?

MR LE ROUX: Yes we did discuss it amongst ourselves.  I did talk a lot about politics.