Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: I still explain, please here me.  I had never had a personal confrontation with Phewa.  Until the time that we had differences, organisational differences, we did not have a personal conflict, he was not somebody that I was close to.

ADV DE JAGER: It was all about the politics between you and him?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Yes I will say so because he even accused me of killing his father.

CHAIRPERSON: But if I understand your evidence, Mr Mngomezulu, when you were giving your evidence then, your evidence in chief, what you were basically trying to say is that there was bad blood between Amabumvu and yourselves and you didn't see eye to eye and that whenever you met one of you had to be down?  That was my understanding of your evidence.  Meaning one of you either your organisation, a member of your organisation or members of his organisation, had to go down because of the constant attacks that you were launching against each other, is it not so?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: I can it was tried for us to see eye to eye.

CHAIRPERSON: No I understand, just listen to my question which is, it actually wants you to say yes or no.  I don't want an explanation, I'm putting to you how I've understood your evidence, that you did not mean to say there was this personal enmity between you and Phewa, you were suggesting that there was this enmity between members of your organisation and members of the organisation to which Phewa belonged and that whenever you met as members belonging to opposing groups you fought?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: May I just also try to get clarity?  You said earlier in your evidence that Mr Mkhize tried to broker the peace but he wasn't successful, did I hear you correctly?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: I would you to repeat this question for me?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: In the beginning in your evidence in chief, I think it was then, you said that Mr Mkhize even tried to broker the peace but he wasn't successful.  He also got in and this was part of all this, he also got in Harry Gwala and Blade Msimande to also speak to them but I just want to make sure, Mr Mkhize was also there to explain the alliance and the peace.  Was that his attitude or did Mr Mkhize say fight the Amabumvu?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Mr Mkhize tried many times so that there's peace between us and the Amabumvu but he was unsuccessful.

MR MALAN: But his line was peace no fighting, that was Mr Mkhize's stance if I understand you correctly?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Yes I agree with you.

MR MALAN: And Blade Msimande and Harry Gwala exactly the same line, they were saying to you don't fight, we want an alliance, we're together in this, we have an election coming, we must work together, is that correct?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Harry Gwala came and explained to all of us that we shouldn't fight but after he left he could see that the situation wasn't calm and he could suspect that after he left there was going to be violence and also Mr Msimande tried to bring peace in that area.

MR MALAN: But really my understanding is simply this, this conflict wasn't fuelled by the leadership, it was at grassroots.  Mr Mkhize did not ask for them to fight, Harry Gwala did not ask the Amabumvu to fight, Blade Msimande did not ask the Amabumvu to fight ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's the ANC.

MR MALAN: Oh, the ANC sorry - ask the ANC to fight, everybody was saying don't fight, is that your evidence?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: If I may disagree there with this following reason that Mr Gwala was approached and at the time Mr Gwala and Mr Mkhize were not in good terms at that time because of the situation.  Why because the Amabumvu used to leave Ascot for Pietermartizburg and they will report to Mr Gwala about Mr Mkhize, statements which were not true and Mr Mkhize came to a decision that he wanted to resign as a chairman of the ANC in the area and he was worried because he realised that the situation wasn't safe and Mr Gwala came one time and we were in a hall together with Mr Mkhize and people started shooting at each other.  The meeting never ended as it was planned.  Then, which I wouldn't say for certain what I suspect or what I've suspected was that Mr Gwala was also with the Amabumvu, not the Mkhize group or the ANC group.

MR MALAN: Ja but that was clearly so, I mean he was representing the SACP in the alliance?  So your suspicion was correct that he was on their side but that's not the issue, the question is Gwala didn't say to you you must fight, he said have peace?  I just want to make sure.  Did Gwala say to you fight or did he say we're part of the same alliance?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: What I can tell this Committee I am not certain whether this meeting I'm talking about was the first meeting with Mr Gwala and us or the second one.  But what I know is that one time on his way to the meeting he was attacked and the rumour came that he was attacked by Teaspoon Mkhize's dogs therefore I'm not sure, that's why I said I'm not sure which side he was.

MR MALAN: I think you can accept that he was on the side of the SACP because he was an office bearer but he was also part of the alliance but I think, if I understand you correctly, Mkhize never told you to fight, he told you somewhere we must make a peace and Blade Msimande came and told the same.  I'm referring to your paragraph 7 and 8 really if we follow through, it's 7.

CHAIRPERSON: 7?

MR MALAN: Ja.  Okay let me just take you back to paragraph 4 at the top of that same page.  Sorry no, actually the next page, the end of paragraph 7.  This Mr Zuma, he was killed in a bomb attack you say?  Was there a prosecution of his killers?  Did they catch the people who planted the bomb?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: In my knowledge, no one was arrested.

MR MALAN: Did you think that this came from Amabumvu?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Without any doubt I can say yes.

MR MALAN: It could not have been the IFP or police?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Let me just explain something about the IFP at that time.  At that time the situation between IFP and ANC wasn't so tense, it wasn't that much tense and Zuma was attacked during the time when Amabumvu and the ANC was fighting.  About the police I cannot comment.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure whether I understood the translation.  Was Zuma attacked during the time that they were fighting or not fighting?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Were not fighting with the IFP but were fighting with the Amabumvu.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact it was that there was no fighting, the situation was not that tense.

MR MALAN: This Mr Phewa that you refer to, I understood that there were two different Phewas.  Who is he or who was he?
The one that was killed, you say Mr Phewa and Mr Gqabha?  I can't pronounce it, Gqabha?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Let me just correct you before I can answer about Mr Phewa, it's not Mr Gqabha, the name of the person it's Gqobha.  It's the name not the surname.

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: I didn't get the spelling, will you spell the name again?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: It's G-q-o-b-h-a.  Mr Phewa who died is Christopher Phewa's father.

MR MALAN: Do you know who killed his father?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: No I don't.

MR MALAN: Do you accept that he was killed by your group?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: No I cannot say yes because I don't know really who killed him.

MR MALAN: And the other person, Gqobha?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: I also don't know who killed him.

MR MALAN: But you're certain that Zuma was attacked by Amabumvu and Thulani who shot him?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: The reason I'm saying so it's because I was close to Mr Zuma before he was killed and he was told that he was going to be killed because he was always with us and he was staying in our area.  We were his bodyguards.

MR MALAN: No, I heard that part earlier, I asked about Thulani now.  Who shot Thulani?