Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

ADV SIGODI: Do you know - sorry Mr Ameen - do you know how the police go to know that it was you who killed the SOSCO members?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The police came to my hiding place with Jeff, they might have known it from Jeff.

ADV SIGODI: And why would Jeff not have mentioned Tamee and Sam, do you know?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not know, but what was happening was that when the comrades were arrested, we did not give information related to our activities.

ADV BOSMAN: Who was arrested first, you or Mr Hlasa?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I was arrested first, that was after Jeff.

ADV BOSMAN: And how did it come about that Mr Hlasa was arrested, who mentioned his name to the police?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When the police arrested me they had his name already, they were searching for him.

MR AMEEN: Now, you had been questioned by members of the committee and by your attorney about the purpose of the killing of these youths and the attempted murder of the other two and you testified that you wanted to send out a message to the community.  I want to dispute that and I want to say to you that the reason you killed these youths and attempted to kill the two survivors, was that you had abducted them, very very severely assaulted them, taken away their clothes and money and watches and shoes, all these are criminal acts and they were now so badly injured that the only way that you wanted to escape the law catching up with you was to execute them and that is what you and your co-applicants did.  That this had nothing to do with the political conflict which you so clearly remembered, details of which you so clearly remember, yet details of this incident you have chosen to forget or not remember.  That is the reason you killed these people?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson that is not so.  Our act is not a criminal issue, it was a political issue involving AZAPO and UDF.  We did not just randomly shoot these people, we confirmed their membership to SASCO after the interrogation.  Mr Ameen I do not agree with you when you say our activities were just criminal activities, this was a political activity.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR AMEEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, let me just find out from members of the committee whether they've got any questions to put to the witness so that you should have the last word in re-examination.

MR MALAN: I have two brief questions.  You gave evidence that when you went to execute Oscar and the other two in your group, that you were the first to shoot Oscar, before the other two youngsters were shot by Tamee and Sam.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct, that's how I put it.

MR MALAN: And you also gave evidence that after the shooting you turned back to the car, after you had shot Oscar you walked back?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I remember putting it that way.

MR MALAN: So you didn't witness the shooting by Tamee and Sam of the other two victims?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did not witness that.  I only heard gunshots on my way to the car.

MR MALAN: Did you look back when you heard the gunshots?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It was dark, even if I had turned back I would have not been in a position to see what was happening.

MR MALAN: The three of you took the three youngsters out of the boot of the car simultaneously, you walked them to the hill simultaneously.  Is that correct, it wasn't one by one, the three of you went together with the three youngsters, with the three boys?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When we arrived there I was the first to grab Oscar by his belt and other comrades were coming behind with other victims.

MR MALAN: Alright and then you also gave evidence that the political purpose, apart from conscientising the people, that you were teaching them the politics of the country and that there were no-go areas.  The impression of that purpose is not one of a defense purpose, of a passive defense purpose but a very active one of going out, almost like a strike force.  Could you clear my mind there?  There were no-go areas, it was important for you to liberate those areas to AZAPO access or at least then to switch it to make that no-go areas for the UDF.  Was that the political purpose?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: This was the situation:   AZAPO was not on the offensive side.  When this conflict between UDF and AZAPO started our comrades from AZAPO were mostly injured, now we were doing this to defend our organisation, to defend our comrades.  We were not on an offensive side, we were on the defensive side.

MR MALAN: I understand that but I talk about this specific action.  If you believe that you were defending yourselves I understand that but how were you defending yourselves, by passive resistance or by active intervention.  I mean if the area's a no-go area and you want to liberate that area or you want access to AZAPO in that area, how can you achieve that goal by simply defending yourselves?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We were defending ourselves as AZAPO, defending ourselves so that we can have a political movement in the areas dominated by these people.  I have mentioned earlier on that when a person belongs to your organisation, such a person must feel free and must feel protected.

MR MALAN: My question is this about your concept about defensive and offensive activities.  If an area for AZAPO is a no-go area, how do you get there, how do you get in there, you get in there by moving in there and have some activity and action there probably some domination, some occupation exerted, show yourself, attack people.  Isn't that what you were doing?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson that is now how we did things.  No-go areas were very dangerous for our members.  We were defending ourselves, for instance what happened at comrades Jeff's place, we went there because his house had been attacked the previous night ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: Was his house in a no-go area?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The area was dominated by UDF.

MR MALAN: And then, just one question again.  I have the same difficulty in the sense as Mr Ameen.  You're very clear on the political conflict, but you're not very clear on the incident.  I take it this was the only execution style killing that you were involved in or was this one of a number in the sense that you simply haven't applied for others.  You don't have to answer this question but if this was indeed the only execution style killing that you were involved in, wouldn't you have remembered it much more clearly?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I remember the main details of the act that brings me here.  It was the first incident that I took part in.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chair.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman if I can have the indulgence of the committee I've just had a look at the application itself and there's a couple of questions I'd like to put from the application of Mr Mphoreng and then there was - I've just been reminded about an aspect of the interrogation which I want to put directly to Mr Mphoreng.  Mr Mphoreng could you please turn to page 16 of your application.  ... (inaudible - end of tape) before I do that, can I just ask you is that your handwriting?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: This is my handwriting.

MR AMEEN: And you wrote this personally without any assistance from anyone?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I was alone when I wrote this.