Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

UNKNOWN: In the course of time I became involved in these arrangements also.  After the entire ritual of execution, after the family had the church service, we then received documentation in our reception office and we then went to the Department of Internal Affairs, Home Affairs, and we registered the death of the persons, there were death certificates.
 We then went to SAFA, who made the arrangements with regard to transport, coffins and so forth.  We made the arrangements for the funeral and I then returned to my work.  Ten, fifteen minutes later the SAFA truck would arrive and in the back on the prison, there was a specific garage used.  The person would stand outside, the door would close.
 Our own members would collect the coffins and place these in the little bus or truck.  We would then depart.  If it was a Black person, we would go to Mamelodi.  We would then bury them there.
 If it was a coloured person, we would take the person to the Eersterus cemetery and White people, if I can recall exactly, it would have been at Zandfontein or a similar cemetery, where we then buried them, but I am not exactly sure about the last fact.

MR JANSEN: Do you know whether records were kept of where which person was buried?

UNKNOWN: If for instance we went to Mamelodi, we would first go to the Mamelodi municipal offices where I would meet a person who would accompany us to the cemetery.  I would believe that they must have precise records of whom were buried where.

MR JANSEN: Were the families of the persons executed, allowed to know where the graves were?

UNKNOWN: No, not at that time.  No family would go with us.  I had heard that the family might make a request for being informed of the grave number of the particular person after a period of one year as far as I heard.

MR JANSEN: During this period of two and a half years, could you give us any indication of the numbers of execution sessions in which you were involved?

UNKNOWN: It would have been on a weekly basis, sometimes on a monthly basis.  I would have been involved weekly or monthly.

MR JANSEN: This continued involvement with these executions, did this have any impact on you personally?

UNKNOWN: Yes, at a certain stage I noticed that I was becoming very aggressive.

MR JANSEN: And in any other way, did it affect you in any other way?

UNKNOWN: I would rather not say anything about this.

MR JANSEN: What were the comments of your colleagues with regard to this?  Do you think that they might also have experienced certain changes in behaviour?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I have come a long way with some of these people and you can see the first day you meet them, many of them did show certain deviant behaviours.  But I don't want to give detail with regard to this.

MR JANSEN: Did the staff involved with the process of execution, ever experience counselling or psychological care?

UNKNOWN: Not at all, not during my period of service.

MR JANSEN: Were there ever any enquiries whether this process affected you or not?

UNKNOWN: At a certain stage there was  a query made whether people would want psychological assistance or work from social workers, and apparently about 75 percent of people indicated that they would appreciate such care.

MR JANSEN: Did it ever happen that of the members of the Department refused to be part of this process?

UNKNOWN: There were members who asked not to be part of this.

MR JANSEN: Did it ever happen that a person during the process could not continue with the process - the process of execution?

UNKNOWN: Yes, there were people that I know of who became physically sick.  I know of a particular person who ran off and who could not cope with the process of execution.

MR JANSEN: What went through your mind with regard to your continued involvement?  Did you ever doubt whether you should be involved in this process or not?

UNKNOWN: At a certain stage we did not want to make use of younger members.  You became so habituated to your work, that it was almost like an addiction.  You wanted always to be present.
 This was your work and it was almost like an addiction.

MR JANSEN: Did you begin to identify with this work that you were doing?

UNKNOWN: Yes, absolutely.

MR JANSEN: There is only one further aspect.  Can you recall whether there had been any particular or special accommodation of persons for instance of the Muslim faith?

UNKNOWN: I was not personally involved, but from what I had heard there would have been special allowances for members of the Muslim faith.

MR JANSEN: Would that involve certain aspects with regard to the person due for execution, to handle this in terms of the Muslim faith?

UNKNOWN: Yes, allowances would have been made for certain privileges with regard to how they were handled.

MR JANSEN: Persons who did not want to be involved in the process of execution, what would have happened to them?

UNKNOWN: These people were used for different posts at the gates for instance.  Some of the members who could not handle it at all, were transferred or asked for transfers.

MR JANSEN: Were there any particular privileges involved with being stationed at the Maximum Prison, financially or otherwise?

UNKNOWN: We did receive financial privileges for working at the Maximum Security Prison.

MR JANSEN: In conclusion, did it ever happen during those two years, you must have had considerable contact with the persons due for execution, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, one had a lot of contact with these people.  You actually got to know them very well.

MR JANSEN: Which cases or are there particular cases which stayed in your mind particularly with regard to the merit of the death sentence?

UNKNOWN: Cases that were very interesting to me included the Upington 14.  I could not understand that 14 people could be executed or found guilty since there were no proper witnesses.  These people were simply pointed out and I felt that it might well have been wrong to hang 14 people, to want to hang 14 people when it was not possible to these 14 people being involved in the murder for which they were accused.
 I think for instance of an old gentleman and his wife.

MR JANSEN: Are these part of the Upington 14?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  This old uncle was a very gentle man.  He was no longer a young man, he was quite old, he couldn't walk ten steps without being out of breath and when I looked at his wife, she was a large woman but not at all very healthy and I could not see how they could think that these people might be involved in what they were accused of.
 But that was just my opinion.  Another matter which everyone knows of, we are still talking about this man, it was an old Zulu uncle, if I can call him an uncle or an "oomie".  He never slept on the beds, he slept on the floor and every morning when we unlocked him, he greeted us very kindly.
 When we accompanied him to the bathrooms, he first  made a certain Zulu dance and he could not understand why he was in this place.  As we became familiar with him and through our Black staff, he explained to us that someone made trouble at his tribe and murdered someone there and that he was selected ... (tape ends) ... and that this was a tradition.
 I felt that it was wrong that we with our modern society were trying to interfere with the traditions of these people and I found this difficult to understand.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for leading this testimony in the manner that you did.  I shall now hand over to Mr Ntsebeza, who is going to facilitate the questioning.