Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-09

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  The interrogation team consisted of several members of the special branch.  Is that right?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's right.  They used to work in rotation.

DR BORAINE: Would you be able to identify any of those who participated in the torture?

WITNESS:   Yes, I can.

DR BORAINE: In particular, can you remember the name of the person to whom you made a complaint, either the station commander, or later on to his superior?

WITNESS:   No, not.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  The district surgeon who examined you - you went to his surgery.  Is that right?

WITNESS:   Yes, taken by the special branch.

DR BORAINE: Can you remember where that was?

WITNESS:   No.

DR BORAINE: Can you remember the name of the district surgeon?

WITNESS:   Yes, his name was Dr Buchanan.

DR BORAINE: Dr Buchanan.  Thank you.  And, according to your

DR BORAINE: /testimony,

DR BORAINE: 13B/13 testimony, you were actually examined by the district surgeon in front of your interrogators?

WITNESS:   That's right.

DR BORAINE: And you never got any results of the examination that took place?

WITNESS:   No.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  If the Commission was able to be of any assistance to you, what would you like to see us do in relation to what you went through?

WITNESS:   Right now, we are carrying out a monologue.  I would like the Commission to create a dialogue between the people who committed tortures and their victims.

DR BORAINE: You think that it would help if the people who were the interrogators or the perpetrators and their victims come face to face?

WITNESS:   I think so.

DR BORAINE: What would you hope to achieve by that?

WITNESS:   Reconciliation, ultimately.

DR BORAINE: As you know, these first hearings are focused on victims, survivors - you really are a survivor.  I would see you as a victim.  You are very much a strong survivor, but whatever term one uses - but you also know that the Commission - I hope you know that the Commission has the power and the authority to subpoena interrogators, perpetrators, to come and appear before the Commission.  We have deliberately focused on the first four of four hearings on listening to the stories of those who have been so badly abused.  Now, could I ask you quite specifically, the people whose names you recall who were part of your interrogation team, who forced you and hit you and tortured you, would you be prepared to meet with them?

WITNESS:   Yes.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  You've been very candid and very helpful  /and we

DR BORAINE: 13B/15 and we will certainly do everything we can to try and see if we can't arrange the exact thing that you've asked for.  Thank you.  I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any questions?  Ilan Lax.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Aziz, after this long and torturous bout of questioning and detention were you ever charged with any offence?

WITNESS:   No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mdu Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you.  Mr Aziz, after hearing your story, one just cannot help but to think that possibly there were other people - the family - how were they affected and how are they now?  Are you comfortable to tell us something about that?  Then and now.

WITNESS:   Yes, at that time my family was antagonistic towards me and the special branch quite effectively used my parents to pressurise me to give up my activities, but after my release from prison we reconciled.

MR DLAMINI: And the immediate family - wife and children - if they are there at all?  Sorry if I am being ... (inaudible).

WITNESS:   Yes, there is a wife and two children and there's no problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Mgojo.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you.  Mr Aziz, according to your statement here, which you also have articulated, that is very unusual, when you were having the examination by Dr Buchanan to be done before those people who were torturing you and then you said you never knew the results.  Are you still interested in knowing the results or not?

WITNESS:   No, it's only academic now.

KHOZA MGOJO: Could you repeat your answer again?

WITNESS:   I said,  /"No,

KHOZA MGOJO: 13B/17 "No, it's academic".

CHAIRPERSON: Richard Lyster.

MR LYSTER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  During the nine months that you were in solitary confinement, did you have any access at all to your family?   Did you see your family?

WITNESS:   Only twice.  It was just for a few minutes.

MR LYSTER: And otherwise were you held on your own?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's right.

MR LYSTER: Alone in the cell?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LYSTER: If, on investigation, we find that the people or some of the people who tortured you are still holding high office in the police, how do you feel about them continuing to hold that high office?

WITNESS:   If they clearly repent for their past that shouldn't be a problem with me, but if they don't and if they are there and continue to abuse their positions, then I would have a problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Just two questions.  First, do you know whether the people who were directly responsible for your torture, do you now if they are still around or still alive or have you any idea where they might be?

WITNESS:   Yes.  The one person I noticed in the Government Gazette some time ago.  He had applied for an indemnity, so I assume he is still in the Police Force.

DR BORAINE: And we can get that information from you?

WITNESS:   Yes.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  The last question that I have, the district surgeon, Dr Buchanan, have you any idea of his whereabouts?

WITNESS:   No.

DR BORAINE: /Thank you

DR BORAINE: 13B/20 Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Ilan Lax.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Aziz, to prolong this, but it was a practice during all these periods of detention for prisoners under detention to be visited either by district surgeons or magistrates or sometimes even judges.  In the nine months that you were inside, were you ever visited by any of these people?

WITNESS:   A magistrate used to come once a while, but it was a big joke.

MR LAX: It was a futile exercise?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We are grateful to you for coming and for sharing with us all of the anguish that you underwent and obviously we are humbled by how you are now - your own attitudes - and it is things of these kind that one hopes will contribute, as they must, to the healing of our nation.  Thank you very, very much indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Aziz was the last witness before lunch and I suggest that we take the break and come back at two.
LONG ADJOURNMENT
13B/24 ON RESUMPTION

DR BORAINE: Buyele Patience Zungu Mthembu.  We will wait until the headphones are in place, so that the witness can hear and also have the translation.  You have given your name as Zungu Mthembu.  Would you like to be called Mrs Mthembu or Mrs Zungu?

MRS MTHEMBU: Mrs Mthembu.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Mthembu, thank you very much, and welcome.  You've been here all day and now your time has come and we are very grateful for your willingness to appear before the Commission and we hope that you are going to find your time with us helpful, as you tell a story which needs to be told.  It's a story in relation to the disappearance of your brother and we're going to hear that story in a moment but first will you please stand for the oath.

BUYELE PATIENCE ZUNGU-MTHEMBU: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  You may be seated.  You are now under oath and we are looking forward to hearing the story that you have to tell and Mr Lyster will take over from me.