Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: In terms of the Security Act.

ADV DE JAGER: The question is before anyone spoke to him.  Do you know whether any other person spoke to him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.

ADV DE JAGER: But before you were involved?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: After he was injured, he was at some stage visited by Dr Tucker and Dr Lang?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But he did not receive medical assistance?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were at times with him during that period?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any specific reason why you did not arrange medical assistance for him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I have previously stated, I was the junior.  I cannot give instructions and orders.  I left it in the judgement of my senior officers, my Commanding Officers, and I do not know what the Doctor told them.

CHAIRPERSON: Those bars that Mr Biko hung from, what was in the room, why was it there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It is burglar bar.  In front of the windows, there were burglar bars, and this is a door that was not used that exits into the passage of that particular floor, and it was welded to the bars so that no one could move through there.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that in that specific room?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: In that particular room.

CHAIRPERSON: When you look through those bars, what can one see?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The bars that he was handcuffed to, just has the door behind it.  It is an inside door from the passage.  The building is in an L-shape.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reason for cuffing him there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The reason was to break down his resistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there no other method?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, there were other methods.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: May I be permitted to ask two questions in relation to the matters that arose from the examination of Ms Patel and members of the court?

GEORGE BIZOS: You told us that the first injury to the head may have been inflicted at the time that Mr Beneke pushed Mr Biko?

ADV BOOYENS: No, Mr Chairman, he didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: I understood that to be the answer Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say was the answer?

ADV BOOYENS: The answer was on the question by my learned friend, the answer of the witness was he hit his, I think he hit his back against the wall and he might have hit the back of his head against the wall, but he didn't say anything about an injury.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, thank you yes, that is correct.  Did he hit his head against the wall on more than one occasion?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: That deals with the one matter.  The other matter Mr Chairman, doesn't arise out of particularly out of anything that was specifically put, except indirectly by you.
	The question of the trip to Pretoria, the circumstances under which it was made and the condition in which you delivered Mr Biko to Pretoria prison.  You heard the evidence of Mr Siebert and what was put to him, do you agree with the answers that he gave?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Can you specify it for me please, it is broad?

GEORGE BIZOS: That he was naked, that he was disorientated, he was taken out of the vehicle on a stretcher, questions were asked by the prison people as to what had happened to him, and certain answers were given by Mr Siebert.  Do you agree with Mr Siebert with all that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I was not present when they handed him over, I was in the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: At least you would be able to say whether he was carried?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is what I said in my evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: That is a little different.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he carried on a stretcher?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, on the cell mat.  If you want to use the terminology as a stretcher, one could.  From Walmer police cells he was on a cell mat when he was taken to the vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: He was taken from Walmer on the cell mat, and what happened at Pretoria?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Exactly the same.  I think I said he was supported, but he was carried.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he carried on a stretcher or on the cell mat?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, not as I can recall Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, did you read the affidavits of the prison authorities that described the miserable condition that Mr Biko was delivered to them, in?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I didn't read it.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was false information given to the prison authorities about his condition, there were suggestions made that he was feigning illness?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I heard about this, but I was not present.

GEORGE BIZOS: You have no reason to deny the affidavits of the prison officials that were put in in the 1977 inquest?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I can't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well, what I am going to put to you that on the evidence which will be incorporated by reference to the Committee, that you had as little regard for the humanity of Mr Biko when he was near death, as you had at the time that you interrogated him.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, that is not so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you for the opportunity Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: .

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, my learned friend has asked one question right at the beginning that I would just like to get clarity on with the Commission's permission.

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Niewoudt, Mr Bizos asked whether Mr Biko knocked his head more than once.  When you speak of he knocked his head, when did he knock his head according to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was when we fell against the wall that he knocked his head in front, that I know of.

ADV BOOYENS: Your answer regarding Beneke was speculative, you are not sure?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  That is the evidence I intend calling in the application Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOOYENS: .

DATE: 31-03-1998

<UNKNOWN>: PETER JONES

DAY: 2

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, have you got any witnesses?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we are calling Peter Jones as my (indistinct).  Where shall we have him sitting Mr Chairman?  Yes, perhaps at the end of the table.

MR MTSHAULANA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, as Mr Bizos has said, I will call Mr Peter Jones as a witness.

PETER JONES: (sworn states)

MR MTSHAULANA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Jones, on the 18th of August 1977 you were arrested in a roadblock in Grahamstown, is that correct?

PETER JONES: That is correct.

MR MTSHAULANA: You were arrested together with Mr Biko who had been travelling with you in the car?

PETER JONES: Yes.

MR MTSHAULANA: You were arrested from the 18th of August and you remained in detention until February 1979, is that correct?

PETER JONES: Yes, that was a total of 533 days.

MR MTSHAULANA: 17 and a half months?

PETER JONES: That is correct.

MR MTSHAULANA: Before you were arrested, what were you...

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, 533 days in detention?

MR MTSHAULANA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: That is more than a year?

PETER JONES: 17 and a half months?

ADV DE JAGER: Oh, 17, not 7?  17 and a half months?

MR MTSHAULANA: Thank you Chairperson.  Before you were arrested, what was your work?

PETER JONES: I had several positions.  I was a Director and the Branch Executive of the Black Community programmes.  I had an office in King William's Town and I was responsible for community development projects in the entire Eastern Cape and the border and Transkei areas.
	I was also the National Secretary for Finance and Economics of the Black Peoples' Convention.

MR MTSHAULANA: When you were released from detention in 1979, could you go back to your - or did you go back to your work to do what you had been doing before your detention?