Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-07

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	General, a few questions.  Could I first refer you to paragraph 13 of the annexure to you application, where you say that with regards to the liberation of Charles Sebe:
"I requested members in my command to obtain information concerning this specific cell where Sebe was being held."
My client, Mr Fouche, it is that he received the instruction?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: I just want to confirm that that was an instruction which referred only to the liberation of Charles Sebe and had nothing to do with the abduction of Kwani Sebe and his companion?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: And then I want to refer you to paragraph 18, page 184.  You say that
"At no stage did I participate physically in any of the actions and so forth."
And then later:
"As a result of the fact that I did not inform members concerning the purpose for which they had to get the information, therefore I also take full responsibility for their actions as far as it occurred within the frame of my instructions."
You refer to the escape routes for Kwani Sebe.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: But I also accept that the escape routes which were suggested to you by my client, Mr Fouche, could not have been related to Kwani Sebe because there were two different places that they had to escape from?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: The last question, General.  With regard to the political situation in the Ciskei at the time, can we accept that it was general knowledge on grassroots level, also concerning my client and all the policemen in his area, that firstly there were political differences between Charles and Lennox Sebe?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is so.

MR CLAASSEN: And was it also general knowledge that Charles Sebe was pro-RSA, more so than Lennox Sebe?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, absolutely.

MR CLAASSEN: So if you had given him an instruction to obtain information with regards to the liberation of Charles Sebe, it would have been logical that for him to make a political inference that it had to do with the toppling of the State in Ciskei?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Claassen.  Mr Penzhorn?

MR PENZHORN: I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PENZHORN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Hoven, do you have any questions?

MR VAN DER HOVEN: Mr Chairman, I've only been given a copy of this Exhibit F now, may I reserve my right to once I've had the opportunity of examining this document and taken instructions if necessary?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR VAN DER HOVEN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nontenja?

MR NONTENJA: Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Jansen and Mr Prinsloo have both excused themselves from further attendance, saying that they have no further business here, so there's obviously no questions from them.  Mr Wagener, do you have any questions?

MR WAGENER: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Sir.
	Sir, you said you sent Major van der Merwe to attend a meeting in Port St Johns on the 10th of November 1986, do you recall that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is so.

MR MAPOMA: And when he gave the report to you, you have said that his report involved the killing of people, do you recall that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is the inference that I made from the report that I received from him.

MR MAPOMA: Who were those people who were reported to have to be killed, in that report that you received?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Chairperson, I will first have to have a look at it.  Three names are mentioned of people who had to be removed, it's Lennox Sebe, Kwani Sebe and Colonel Zibi.  But to be removed from the State dispensation, you cannot really infer that they had to be removed.

MR MAPOMA: Did he give you the report verbally?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And from his verbal report, what did he actually report to you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I can't remember his precise words.  I can't remember which specific terms had been used, but I inferred that they were planning to kill people.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the direct word used "kill", murder or ...?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, the term "take out" was used, an I only have one meaning that I attach to it and that was that the person had to be killed.

MR MAPOMA: Now at that meeting which you attended in Port Elizabeth, where the Katzen plan was introduced, you said you were reluctant to accept the plan and then you were advised that it has been an order from above, who was said to have given that order?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That would have come from the Commissioner of Police.

MR MAPOMA: Were you told that the Commissioner of Police has given that order?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I don't understand the question.

MR MAPOMA: You say it must have been the Commissioner of Police who gave the order that police participate in the operation.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, that is correct.  And I explained how the instruction was conveyed.  Firstly, the chairperson, that was General Joubert, put it to me that it was an instruction from the Commissioner and the Commissioner I then said had to give it personally to me, and he said that there was a representative of the Commissioner and that is Brigadier Schoon, and Brigadier Schoon confirmed that the Commissioner had in fact given such an instruction.

MR MAPOMA: So actually what instruction is it that Brigadier Schoon confirmed, that has been given?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: As I understood it it is that Brigadier Schoon is not agreeing with what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: I think - well the question was, what was the instruction?  Is that the question? - that came from the Commissioner.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It was to participate in Plan Katzen.

MR MAPOMA: And it is on the basis of that instruction that you had to participate in the freeing of Charles Sebe from Middledrift Prison?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Now you say you take responsibility for the actions of those under you who participated in that operation, who are those people who participated in that operation?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I have already said, Chairperson, I can remember two names, that is Fouche and Hattingh.  The rest I can't remember.

MR MAPOMA: Fouche and who?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Hattingh.

CHAIRPERSON: And to a lesser extent, Major van der Merwe who attended the meeting?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, who attended the meeting, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: What roles did they actually play?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It was gathering of information concerning escape routes and then also the cell where Charles Sebe was being held.

MR MAPOMA: And they gave that information to you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you transmitted it to someone else, to whom?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, I did.

MR MAPOMA: To whom did you transmit that information?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That was Joe Verster, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Are you in a position to tell the Committee who are the people who removed Charles Sebe from prison?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: All that I can say to you is that I was under the impression that the commander of that group was Special Forces, it was Joe Verster.  Who the specific people were I do not know.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Avenant, do you have any re-examination?