Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: First of all I agree with you, there right at the top that is where the buck stops.  But I have told the Commission here that my men, and I don't reflect on the CDF, I was not their commander, my men didn't fire one shot.  But as I have said before I don't want to be drawn into any political comment.  What happened there, and as a policeman you know you are not without emotions and without feelings, but if I can really give a message to them it is once you choose your leaders, see that they act responsibly.  And that is what as far as I am concerned happened there that day.  As a policeman we all expected the crowd to go into the stadium and some leader or leaders decided no, we will do it differently.  So that is the one message I would like to give to them.  Pick your leaders that you can follow and once they have negotiated with the authorities or in that case I think it was Mr Hall and Dr Gildenhuys then adhere to what has been decided there.  I have no other message.  I am EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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a policeman and I am satisfied that my men they did their duty that day, and I repeat, no reflection on my CDF colleagues, I wasn't there where the shooting started, I don't know what happened there.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Did you walk around after the shootings to look at the aftermath?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes I did.  I did say that.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: And you saw the dead bodies?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I saw some bodies, yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: It is very disconcerting to me General that the message you want to convey to the families is that they should pick their leaders carefully.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: Order please.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: That there is no sense of compassion, that you have not looked at families, regardless of whether your policemen fired shots or not, you viewed the bodies, you viewed the aftermath and yet you sit here and give these families the message that they should choose their leaders correctly, no compassion.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I have no comment.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: And that is very disconcerting to me.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: It may be so but I have no comment.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you General.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Thank you.

MR POTGIETER: Order please.  I have, when the proceedings started this morning I have brought to the attention of the people attending the proceedings what the rules of decorum and discipline are, and I have indicated that from time-to-time you might hear testimony that you don't agree with, but that doesn't mean that the person who gives the testimony
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should not be given an opportunity to put his or her case.  So I just remind you about that again please.    Let's retain that decorum here.  Before I proceed there are some more questions my colleagues want to ask.  
 I just want to perhaps finish off this one point General that has arisen so that we can understand what the factual situation was, why were you not in charge of the police, the Ciskean Police on that particular day?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Mr Chairperson I think I did explain just a short while ago, that you are in charge, I was still in charge of the Police, but the arrangements for the actions there, the arrangements there were made by Brigadier Ngcobo and Major Simms with the CDF.  And that is why I have said I went down there to be with my men, to give them moral support, and as I have explained as a senior man you don't go and interfere with the arrangements they have made.  Maybe if things really got out of hand with the Police I would have said okay now we do this, we do that.  But it wasn't necessary for me because the police didn't go into any action.

MR POTGIETER: Ja.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: And I was satisfied with our arrangements.  Brigadier Ngcobo is a very senior man.  Major Simms a very senior or a very experienced riot control man, and then you don't interfere.  And as I have said I went down there for moral support for my men because there were only a handful of men there and maybe thinking of it now at the previous march with all the negotiations going on with Dr Gildenhuys and I think there was somebody from the United Nations, in the end the marchers were amongst the policemen, if something happened that day the police would have been
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ineffective and not been able to take any action.  And that is one of the reasons, I don't think I've stipulated here, that is one of the reasons why I said let's put razor wire over there, because that is what happened in August, the people were amongst the policemen in the end.

MR POTGIETER: I am sorry, I might not be following what you are saying or I might be misunderstanding what you are saying, what I want to understand is you were physically in Bisho, you were the Commissioner of Police of Ciskei.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Correct.

MR POTGIETER: You had this situation on your hands, this immovable object and irresistible force going to clash and all indications were that there was the potential for big problems on that particular day, that's what all of the testimony that we have heard thus far amounted to, but why did you leave these two subordinates to be in control of the police on such a day when you were there?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Sir, I don't think I can explain any further.  They were at the meetings with the CDF where the whole thing was planned, and as I have also explained once permission was given for the people to go into the stadium we thought no more problems.  Because I think if I remember correctly at the previous occasion once the people went into the stadium there was no further problems.  But with all due respect Sir for your knowledge, that is how it works, you as a man right there on top don't go and take charge of a situation every time.  You have your subordinates and psychologically it's very bad if you had to go and take charge every time, that that man must understand then that he can't do the job.  I can assure you I am not running away from my responsibilities.  As an officer I take what's
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coming to me.  But that is what happened.  Two senior and experienced people, they were in right from the start with the whole coordination and then I don't interfere.  I don't go into the detail but overall I knew what was planned and as I have said because of what happened the previous occasion and because we were only a few policemen there, I thought I don't want my men to think the Commissioner is sitting up in his office, I was there with my men.

MR POTGIETER: Now just to perhaps in a way repeat, you see there was an indictment against the Ciskean Police by the Ciskean Defence Force Inquiry, they found that no specific police officer appeared to have been appointed as the Ciskean Police commander or else the military was not informed of this.  Now what is your attitude?  Because you see what they are saying that the Ciskean Police were abandoned on the scene and they were saying that the Ciskean Police failed to redeploy their numbers, their personnel after the magistrate gave permission for the march to proceed into Bisho.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Not into Bisho, with due respect, into the stadium.

MR POTGIETER: Well into the stadium them, okay.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Which was part of Ciskei.