Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I think the first contact was with the mother because what happened is that when a person gets detained, then it's the mother that would come and seek legal assistance so I remember all three incidences.

MR RICHARD: And another one in 1987 when he was arrested, prosecuted and convicted of possession of a firearm, do you remember that one?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I remember quite well.

MR RICHARD: Now when did his mother come and see him, was it 1986 or 1987?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I think it was 1986.

MR RICHARD: So it's logical then that on his release at December '86 or early '87 he would have made contact with you?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now in what way did you assist him?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: At first is that when he was released from detention we would take a statement first and find out what happened in detention, whether he was tortured you know, those kind of things and whether he - in most cases people who would complain that after they were detained, they were asked to be informers, so we had to check with everybody so that if people, you know agreed to be informers so that they could be released then they would have to be referred immediately to a lawyer to make a statement.

MR RICHARD: Was Mr Dhlomo one of those people?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes he was.

MR RICHARD: During that period if somebody had been detained, asked to become an informer, when you debriefed them, what would they tell you?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Well we would really you know speak to them and tell them you know to be open on what had happened in detention and we would say that we would want to assist them in whatever way we can so that we make it, you know, easier for people, you know, to open up.

MR RICHARD: And was it a frequent or infrequent occasion to hear a story that somebody, while in detention?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Can you repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: Was it a frequent or infrequent occurrence that individuals that had been in detention would report to you had to stop torture, had agreed to be an informer but now that they were out they were not going to be informers?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying?

CHAIRPERSON: Did many detainees tell you that while they were in detention they had agreed to be informers because they were being treated so cruelly?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And when they came to see you they continued to say that now they were out they would not inform?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes, many of them would say that also that now, you know, "I agreed to be an informer because I wanted to be released, I didn't want to stay in the cell."

MR RICHARD: Now were those people who made that sort of report to you treated as informers?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No.

MR RICHARD: And it was usual to accept after properly briefing obviously that statement that they were not informers and had no intentions of complying with their agreement with the police?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand that these people would be referred to attorneys so that they could make a statement to an attorney about this attempt to make them turn them into informers?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes, definitely and some of them didn't know who the attorneys were because when you get detainees, the family that comes, so we would pull out the file and check if the case was reported and we would tell the person who his lawyer is and if the person, you know, came to the DPSC for the first time and the matter was not reported then we would look for a lawyer immediately.

MR RICHARD: So it was usual to find files at some attorney's offices with basically amounted to debriefing statements?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now to which attorney did Mr Dhlomo go?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: To Mr Ayob.

MR RICHARD: Did you refer him there or was it?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes, it was a DPSC referral.

MR RICHARD: So that means the fact that there is a coherent paper train of the various incidents in his files is in no way surprising, it's in fact what's to be expected?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now how well did you get to know Mr Dhlomo?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: After his arrest, when he was found in possession of a firearm, he did a lot of work with the DPSC, he volunteered at the DPSC office and most of the staff members at that time were highly wanted by the police including the one that who was, you know testified Joe Tlhwale.  So in most cases they would come in and out and Sicelo was mostly available at that time so that's when I knew of him very well and the mother used to come and see Sicelo at the office so she used to say how poor she was because she was selling at the school so I was very sympathetic to him and that he was getting very little money for transport so I used to do some other things like buying clothes for him.

MR RICHARD: So you developed a close interpersonal relationship?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes at one stage I even offered a hiding place for him but he didn't want to go out in the East Rand where I was living and he said that he loved his grandmother a lot and he doesn't want to be far from his family.

MR RICHARD: Now during this period he'd obviously get to know various people who would be wanted by the police for various things?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And in fact he had what amounts to a responsible and highly confidential job?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes, definitely.

MR RICHARD: And did you ever have any doubts that he was a person that could be entrusted with that sort of responsibility and trust?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No.  In fact what happened is that some other attorneys, when they went to visit detainees at a prison, even the ones that were held under emergency regulations or Section 29, they would give some legal notes to the lawyers and say please give it to somebody at the DPSC office and that was highly confidential matter.

MR RICHARD: And to the best of your knowledge he never betrayed your trust?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No.

MR RICHARD: Just for the sake of the record, is it not correct that this arrest for a firearm is the event that led to him being convicted and sentenced to a five year period imprisonment, suspended?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes it was.

MR RICHARD: And that was early in 1987?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I think it was late in 1987, I'm not quite sure of the dates.

MR RICHARD: That's the incident that you were referring to?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now while he worked at the DPSC was he visited by anyone?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes, there were a lot of comrades who used to come and visit him and including the family and they would also contact him through the phone.

MR RICHARD: Now do you remember the names of any of his friends or visitors?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes I do.

MR RICHARD: What names do you remember?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I remember Clive and I remember Rambo.

MR RICHARD: When you say Rambo that's a nickname for somebody.  Who is that?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Yes, that's the third applicant.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just to ensure that there will be no confusion on the record.  Isn't that Sipho Humphrey Tshabalala?  I thought that Mr Tlhwale said that was Humphrey, Rambo was Humphrey.  Do you know the full names of this person?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No, not the full names, I only knew the famous names that we used at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were Clive and Rambo the same person?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: No, Clive I would refer him as the one who appeared the second time yesterday and the other one, the one who was here round about two when I arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: The third one, who was he?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: I know him as Rambo.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now how often did these people come?

NTOMBI JANE MOSIKARE: Several times, I wouldn't count how many times.