Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: She was not aware.  What she was aware at the time was that I am having a business discussion and it is in the evening and all this, and it is informal, and she should be present.  I think her reaction when the actual operation went down, was a full indication, because she actually started running away because she didn't know what was happening.

MR MAZAHAM: There are just one or two more aspects I would like to clear up please.  In so far as your role that you played with Military Intelligence in Transkei, you had an access card that gave you entry to military installations.  At what stage in your association with Military Intelligence did you acquire such liberal rights?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I got - when I had to go to the Transkei, six months after the abduction, I was accommodated by the Transkei Defence Force in a safe house, I was given for my own protection, a rifle.  I had my own handgun and I got an ID which basically said that I am authorised to carry all these firearms with me.

MR MAZAHAM: At the time of your association with the Transkei Military in 1991, what basically was your political affiliation?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I would say this way, political affiliation is maybe not the right word, what my opinion at that time was, and this was in 1991, the liberation movements were officially allowed already in South Africa, and the whole country was prepared for transition and the situation in general wasn't very quiet.  Transkei was at that time the only so-called Independent State where the liberation movements, thanks to Gen Holomisa and his Military Council, where the liberation movement could operate freely and where they could prepare for the transition.  The South African government at the time, was trying to overthrow the Transkei government because of those reasons.  My attitude at that time was, and I don't know if this is a political affiliation, was that it is important for the transition that the status quo in the Transkei as is at the time, is being maintained and not disturbed by a potential coup which would nullify all these achievements.

MR MAZAHAM: On just one or two technicalities, you appreciated obviously at the time that you went into the commission of this act, that the conduct of kidnapping was actually unlawful?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I was fully aware that any kidnapping is an unlawful act.  However, my attitude at the time was in order to establish, keep the status quo on the political side, kidnapping might be the only means of doing, of achieving it.  The other thing was that if I, it was at that time when I got involved, made quite clear that Mr Mbotoli has to be eliminated.  I think I could have sat back and said okay, fine, you don't need me for that and Mr Mbotoli would have been eliminated one way or the other.  My involvement was actually to prevent this, to still maintain the status quo in the Transkei, but also the kidnapping was the only viable alternative to Mr Mbotoli's call it, assassination.

MR MAZAHAM: At the time in question, Colonel Mzwaiba, was officially an employee of the Transkei government?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: That is correct.  He was - at that time he was Head of Military Intelligence, or this is - or Director Military Intelligence and later on he became also Member of the Military Council when he became Minister of Police.

MR MAZAHAM: And your understanding at the time you got your request to form or to lead this Task Force was that it emanated from Gen Holomisa and that it was in pursuance of maintaining the stability in Transkei, so as to avoid a further imminent coup?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: That is correct.

MR MAZAHAM: Finally, what was your clear instruction to the members who assisted you with regard to any danger or to the life of the victim?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I think it was at that time clear to all members of the team that the only objective was to get Mr Mbotoli safely from Johannesburg to Port St Johns, and that no harm should come to him.

MR MAZAHAM: At this stage Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAZAHAM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mazaham.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I would like just as a matter of interest to ask a few questions.  Mr Moringer, I would like to start at your association with Charles Sebe.  Am I correct that what you said was that you were involved with Charles Sebe when he wanted to overthrow the Ciskei government?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And your involvement was because you lost business in Ciskei and you wanted means to get back to Ciskei and pursue your business interests?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: That was correct at that time.  Sorry, yes, that was correct at that time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You had no interest in Transkei at the time, am I correct?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, just for my own clarity.  His association with Mr Charles Sebe, what has that got to do with the abduction of Mbotoli in Johannesburg?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, through you Chairperson, I am just going exactly there, I am just passing, I want to link my questions, I want to lay a basis for my question, for my later questioning with this, in regard to this matter, thank you sir.  Now, after this, after you left, let me take it further and hasten to the further question, after you left for Johannesburg, after you left, you were in Johannesburg and you realised that you were approached by Colonel Mzwaiba, did you have any interest in Transkei?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: At that time I had zero interest in the Transkei.  Sorry, you are talking business interest?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Business interest, political interest, anything that was happening in Transkei, did you have any?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I had no business interest whatsoever, but I had contacts since call it 1988, 1987 which were continuous contacts where we were either talking, we would meet either in Pretoria or at Wild Coast Sun.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you have any political interest in the Transkei and what was, if you had any, what were your political interest?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Could you clarify your question, what do you mean with political interest, was I involved in a political party there or ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: In the political situation in Transkei, were you involved in any, did you have any interest, political interest in Transkei?  Were you involved in any activity, political interest?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I was not involved in a political activity in the Transkei, but at that time the political situation in South Africa was much more a global situation as explained before, that for the whole situation the stability of the Transkei, for the whole transitional period, the stability was of importance and that was in my interest as well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Now, let's come to this question of your involvement.  Would somebody be incorrect if he says that your involvement in kidnapping of Vulindela Mbotoli was in line with what was happening then with the moves that Ciskei would be, moves to amalgamate Ciskei and Transkei and your involvement was because you had that hope that after that amalgamation, then you would be able to pursue those business interests you had in Ciskei?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Sorry, I think you mix, I don't quite understand your question, you are talking about Sebe now or you are talking about Mr Mbotoli, regarding the Transkei?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I am talking about both of them, there was a move to amalgamate Ciskei and Transkei, whichever that means by any means.