Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-01

ADV VISSER: Now you weren't involved in the incident yourself.  What is the next bit of information that you received to what happened?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: What we heard from the scene of the incident was what Captain Dreyer told me.  He phoned me to tell me that the incident had taken place, that there had been some shooting and that all six terrorists had been shot dead and that one of the defence force members, namely the Captain had been wounded, but not seriously wounded.

ADV VISSER: Now when was this information conveyed to you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: It was on the 10th, the afternoon of the 10th.

ADV VISSER: And according to you and what you experienced yourself, what was the next step in the series of events?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Well I thought it necessary to inform Head Office of the outcome of the operation and I spoke to General van der Merwe and told him what had happened.

ADV VISSER: And one can assume that your members reported to you what had happened later on.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes.  I received piecemeal reports and we also discussed the matter afterwards.

ADV VISSER: Mr van der Merwe you know that there was an informal inquest into these events which took place on the 10th of June.  You are also aware of the fact that Erwee is applying for amnesty in respect of perjury or defeating the ends of justice as far as that inquest is concerned?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Correct.

ADV VISSER: Now could you tell the members, who was the investigating officer for the purposes of this judicial inquest?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Well the rank structure has changed but Superintendent Swarts was the man who did the investigation and he's also applying for amnesty.

ADV VISSER: Now when did you for the first time hear that something had been done for which amnesty was being applied for in respect of the inquest?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: It's a couple of months ago that I learned from Colonel Erwee that investigation was being done into the whole series of events and we then got together, Brigadier Coetsee and I, and I then realised that the version put forward in the judicial inquest was not a true reflection of what really happened at the scene.

ADV VISSER: Did you then have the opportunity to hear or read what had been said in a sworn statement by Mr Erwee?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Somebody read it to me.  I didn't read it myself but that was at a later stage.  He told me what he had said orally.

ADV VISSER: Did you speak to him about what his motives were?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes his

ADV VISSER: No I just want to know whether he spoke about his motivation with you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon Mr Visser, is that now his statement regarding the inquest?

ADV VISSER: Yes it's 15 on C, C.15, that's Erwee's statement. I just wanted to know whether he gave an explanation as to his motives, as to why he had done what he did.   He can come and tell himself what he did.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes he did speak to me about that.

ADV VISSER: Yes it's not for you to condone it or reject it but you heard it about two months ago you say?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes I'm guessing that it was two months.  It was at the same time as when we heard that there was an investigation pending and then it became relevant.

ADV VISSER: And the necessary implication is that you were not aware of this sworn statement at the time of the inquest, or the contents thereof?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: No I knew there had to be affidavits but I wasn't aware of the actual particulars.

ADV VISSER: You also didn't know anything about Swarts's statement?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: No.

ADV VISSER: Chairperson, could you grant me a moment's indulgence.
	After the incident Mr van der Merwe, an amount of money was paid to Matthew Sehlwana by the police?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Can you tell us why that happened?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: I think it was a spontaneous feeling amongst myself and members of my branch that this man had performed a very brave act and had deserved some form of commendation and I thought that we should give him the money because I knew he could use the money and I gave him R2 000.

ADV VISSER: Will you perhaps look at your application because I want to ask you to tell the Committee whether there was any political background for your own conduct and your people, people under your command during this incident. Please look at page 43.  Chairperson this is B.43 and it's page 3 of your statement, paragraph 10. Perhaps you would just like to deal with that very briefly if you don't mind.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: What it says here is what I would like to say and I would like to read this, or Chairperson ...(intervention)

ADV VISSER: Yes please read it quickly. Please read it slowly thank you Mr van der Merwe!

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: It says there the motive, yes as you have now asked me, I say here
"The objective of the ANC/SACP Alliance was to overthrow the previous government by violent means and to destroy the constitutional dispensation.  And to be able to achieve this objective, the ANC or SACP Alliance focused itself on launching a peoples' war which they defined as follows
		'A war in which the entire nation is engaged. Umkhonto weSizwe, the People's Army, workers, the rural masses, women, intellectuals, the religious community, selectively in groups or as organised individuals, who use all forms of revolutionary warfare, armed or non-combat, legal or illegal means to attack and destroy all symbols, structures and organs of apartheid power including all those who man them.'"
This statement was issued in 1980 by the Central Committee of the South African Communist Party,
...forward to the Peoples' power, the challenge ahead'."

ADV VISSER: Please continue with paragraph 2.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: The policy, according to the ANC, their policy the revolutionary policy was based on four pillars namely
The armed struggle by Umkhonto weSizwe; the mobilisation of the masses; the underground structures of the ANC and the international onslaught to isolate the Republic.

ADV VISSER: Yes Mr van der Merwe, your application is before the Committee and do you confirm what you said here as your motivation and you confirm that it is correct and true?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes I confirm it.

ADV VISSER: I'm not going to ask you to read it all, but if you can just turn back to page 3 paragraph 10A.  On the basis of that general background, Mr van der Merwe - just the previous page, page 3.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: I have it.

ADV VISSER: Have you got 10A?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Could you please read that for us.