Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-04-11

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  We want to start the proceedings.  For the record, today is Tuesday, the 11th of April 2000.  This is a hearing of the Amnesty Committee, sitting at the Christian Centre in Durban.  The Panel is chaired by myself.  My name is Denzil Potgieter.  With me on the Panel is Adv Sigodi and Mr Sibanyoni.
	We will start off by hearing the amnesty application of Thami Ndlovu.  The reference number is AM5630/97.
	Just for the record Ms Loonat, would you put yourself on the record.

MS LOONAT: Good morning, Chairperson and Members of the Honourable Committee.  My name is Sereni Loonat.  I'm a barrister and I'm appearing on behalf of Mr Thami Ndlovu this morning.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Loonat.  And the Leader of Evidence?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.  Ramula Patel.  If I may at this stage just place on record that the victim in this matter, Mr Jerome Tamsanqa Mbele(?), has refused to accept the Section 19(4) notice from our office, saying that he is not interested in the application.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel, we've noted that.  Are you satisfied in the circumstances that we are able to proceed with the matter?

MS PATEL: I am thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Well under those circumstances, we'll proceed to hear the amnesty application.  Ms Loonat, is there anything else or do you want your client to be sworn in?

MS LOONAT: Yes, Mr Chairperson, please.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
	Mr Ndlovu, do you heard the interpretation on your headset?  What are your full names?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated.  Just a minute, Mr Loonat.  Just give us a minute, we've got a technical problem with the sound.

MR SIBANYONI: Chairperson, may I just ask one thing?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Ndlovu, I see in the documents you say Thami S Ndlovu, what does the "S" stand for?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Siabonga, but this is the name that is not included on my ID.

CHAIRPERSON: So do you only want to be, for our purposes, to be known as Thamsanqa Ndlovu?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Yes Ms Loonat.

MS LOONAT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Ndlovu, how old are you?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: 28 years old.

MS LOONAT: And where do you reside?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Sorry?

MS LOONAT: Where do you live?  What area?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: At KwaMashu, F1067.

MS LOONAT: Are you married with children?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: No.

MS LOONAT: You have no children either.  Do you have any previous convictions?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: No.

MS LOONAT: Are you a South African citizen by birth?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Do you belong to any particular political party?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Which party do you belong to?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: ANC member.

MS LOONAT: Before I go on please tell me, are you employed at the moment?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes.

INTERPRETER: Can you please ask the witness to wait for the interpretation before responding to your question.

MR SIBANYONI: Or to put it the other way around, can the witness listen to the interpretation and not to his legal rep, and talk directly to the interpreter.

MS LOONAT: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.
	Mr Ndlovu, do you own a firearm?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: No, I do not have any firearm.

MS LOONAT: You did say you were a member of the ANC, are you a card carrier or a supporter, a registered member?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: I was in the organisation called MK Umkhonto weSizwe, that is why I say that I am an ANC member, because I was in the military wing of the ANC in exile.

MS LOONAT: So do you have any proof that you are attached to the ANC Party?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Can you produce the same please.

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: I believe that these have been handed to your - I apologise, I thought photocopies were made and given to you.  This is proof that he belongs to the MK Party, he has no other registration other than this.  May I pass it on please.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Ndlovu, what was your operational or your MK name?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: I was called Patson Digale.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: I didn't get the name, what was it?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Patson Digale.

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, I've also enclosed another form as well, to show further proof of his position.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have two documents, we have a  document headed
"Voluntary repatriation to the Republic of South Africa - Application Form."
That will be Exhibit A.  And then we have a document with the heading:
"Identification on the Certified Personnel Register (CPR)."
And that would be Exhibit B.  Yes, Ms Loonat.

MS LOONAT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Ndlovu, how long have you been a member of the ANC?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: From 1989, when I left South Africa, up until when I came back to South Africa.

MS LOONAT: Prior to joining the ANC, did you support any other political party?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes, there was another organisation.

MS LOONAT: Please tell the Committee Members what that is.

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: When I was still at school I was a supporter of the UDF.

MS LOONAT: And why did you change from the UDF to the ANC?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: The reason for me to change is because when I left South Africa, when I arrived in Swaziland I was welcomed by the ANC people.  That was the organisation that sent me to the other countries where I had to get training.

MS LOONAT: Why did you leave South Africa?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: The reason for me to leave South Africa, we knew that South Africa was a country with some problems and my intention was to go and fight with the South African people, to try and free them from the oppression.

MS LOONAT: Who assisted you in leaving South Africa?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: The main person who helped me, there was this other comrade who had crossed in 1986, who used to be my neighbour, he was working as an underground in Swaziland and he came to fetch us and then he sent us to Swaziland.

MS LOONAT: Does he have a name?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: His full names were Moosa Eric Mbatha.

MS LOONAT: And where is he at present, do you know?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Presently he was just - he died in prison in Westville and then he was buried two weeks ago.

MS LOONAT: You say that whilst you were at school you joined the political movement, is that correct?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: That is correct.

MS LOONAT: What exactly did you do at school, as far as the political side was concerned?  Did you attend rallies, meetings, what was your position?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: I used to attend rallies and attend meetings that would be held at school, because we had SRCs in the schools.

MS LOONAT: Were these not banned at the time?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes, they were banned.

MS LOONAT: So how did you attend?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: We would meet and there would be people guarding the premises if there were no police because if the police would come to that situation they would disperse the meetings by shooting.

MS LOONAT: So these were done secretly.  Was it at night, during the day?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: They would be done during the day because they had to take place inside the school premises and the other pupils or students would guard the premises and watch out for the police till the end of the meeting.

MS LOONAT: And what message did you receive when you attended these meetings?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: The message that I would get was to the effect that I would be told about the people's lives, the rights that were taken away from us and the encouragement that people should unite and fight for their country.  All the South African people were supposed to do the same thing.

MS LOONAT: You say you left South African in 1989, who assisted you financially and where did you go?