Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JIMMY MBANE: Because I didn't get your question clearly.  I thought you were saying I am staying with him right now.

MR BOOYENS: Now, let's deal with the development of the group.  The group initially consisted of four innocents, and one locally trained man who had his own AK47.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: When you went in to infiltrate the group, did you have your four AK's with you?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I had them with me.

MR BOOYENS: As well as the Makarov and Tokarev,  I think they were.  And the hand grenades and the ammunition.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: So, right from the inception in January, you were able to arm your group quite well?  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Once again, the paragraph that I read to you earlier on, once again that is not paragraph 26 of your Johannesburg statement
"I was then joined by Eric Maluleka nad we were given weapons to 	train those people for Khayelitsha."
You say that's not the way it happened

JIMMY MBANE: Can you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Paragraph 26 of the Johannesburg statement that said, there's a sentence in it that reads as follows - remember you don't read English so don't try and read it.  I'll have it interpreted for you.

JIMMY MBANE: Can you please compose the question.

MR BOOYENS: Is that statement incorrect, contained in paragraph 26?  Remember the context of paragraph 26.  This suggests, let me simplify it, this suggests that you were given the weapons at a later stage.  After you infiltrated the group.  You say that's incorrect.

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, that's what I said.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.  Now, when did you tell - did you at any stage tell these people that took your statement in Johannesburg that the statement they had taken from you was incorrect and it contained mistakes?

JIMMY MBANE: These people who took my statement, after some time they came to me and asked me to sign.  That was the last time I saw them, although I had already told them that the mistake with people's names there.  But I never saw them again.  They  promised to come back.

MR BOOYENS: The question is very simple.  Do I understand you correctly that you told the people from Johannesburg that there were mistakes in this statement?  At some stage.  When they brought it to you to sign.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: I told them, I once told them.  I didn't read the whole statement but I noticed that there are mistakes, but they said to me: "Just sign the statement, we'll come back to you."

CHAIRPERSON: Was this the first or second statement?

JIMMY MBANE: That was the first statement I didn't sign.  Even the second statement has some mistakes.  I signed it and they said they were going to rectify those mistakes after I had already signed the statement.

MR BOOYENS: Perhaps just to finish this aspect.  You not only signed it, you also took the oath according to this, and confirmed that it was correct.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Experienced witness, made many statements.  Why do you take the oath that the statement is correct, knowing full well that it's not?

JIMMY MBANE: I just wanted them to stay away from me.  I just wanted them to leave me alone.

ADV C BOOYENS: Why?

JIMMY MBANE: They were just bothering me.  They were irritating me.

MR BOOYENS: How were they irritating you?

JIMMY MBANE: They didn't have any respect for me.  They just took me for granted.  They treated me like a murderer, they didn't have any respect for me.

MR BOOYENS: And in order to get rid of them, you were just prepared to swear to the correctness of anything.   Is that what you are now saying?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I just wanted to get rid of them.

MR BOOYENS: May this be an appropriate time, my Lord?

CHAIRPERSON: One last question.
	I am maybe confused about this.  Did they take you up to Johannesburg to make a statement there?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they took me to Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they have to bring you back?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they did that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you weren't just trying to get away from them?  They were still going to have to bring you back.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JIMMY MBANE: (s.u.o.)

MR BOOYENS: (cont)
	Mr Mbane, who is Colonel Pieters?

JIMMY MBANE: He is one of - he is somebody I saw once here in Cape Town.

MR BOOYENS: In what role?

JIMMY MBANE: There was a time when we stayed with them just after we had arrived here.

MR BOOYENS: You stayed with them.  Doing what?
	Leave the statement, answer my questions.

JIMMY MBANE: No, I stayed with them for a short while.

MR BOOYENS: So Colonel Pieters is just somebody that you coincidentally got to know.

JIMMY MBANE: We had just arrived at that time, when I met him.

MR BOOYENS: Ja, but you had nothing else to do with him.

JIMMY MBANE: There was nothing much between us.

MR BOOYENS: Well, the something then that was between you, what was that?

JIMMY MBANE: His rank was higher than Liebenberg's, here in Cape Town.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have anything to do with Pieters, did Pieters have anything to do with you?

JIMMY MBANE: On our arrival here in Cape Town at Koeberg, I don't remember exactly what transpired between us.  It's quite a long time.  I can't remember all the details.

MR BOOYENS: But the people who briefed you to infiltrate the Comrades were Bellingan and Liebenberg.  Right?

JIMMY MBANE: On our arrival in Cape Town, during our briefing, it seems that he was present as well.

MR BOOYENS: What does that answer "it seems" mean?  Seems  from paragraph 4 of your statement, yes.  What do you mean?  Why do you answer the question like that?  "It seems that he was present as well".  What does that answer mean?
	Leave the statement alone Mr Mbane, and answer my questions.  I can see you are reading.

JIMMY MBANE: I think it seems he was there - which means he was there.

MR BOOYENS: Doing what?

JIMMY MBANE: On our, whenever you arrive at a new workplace, the staff meet you, the Colonels and Captains to brief you.

MR BOOYENS: Did Pieters brief you to involve, to infiltrate this group?

JIMMY MBANE: The main speaker there was Liebenberg.  He was the one who even produced the photos.

MR BOOYENS: Answer my question.  Did Pieters have anything to do with the briefing -  yes or no?

JIMMY MBANE: I have said that the person who was talking was Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS: So Pieterse - is the answer that Pieterse had nothing to do with the briefing?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Why did you say different in your Cape Town statement, paragraph 4?

JIMMY MBANE: As I have said the person who briefed us was Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS: Why did you say in paragraph 4 of your Cape Town statement:  "We were briefed and tasked by Lieutenant Liebenberg, Sergeant Bellingan, Joe Coetzer and Colonel Pieters."

JIMMY MBANE: Only one person spoke and it's Liebenberg, and he is the one who produced the photos.

MR BOOYENS: Did you understand my question?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I understood your question.

MR BOOYENS: Do you want to attempt to answer it?  Why did you say that in your statement?  That Pieters briefed you?

JIMMY MBANE: I think there's an error there, because the person who briefed us was Liebenberg, and he showed us the photos.

MR BOOYENS: So, even in the Cape Town statement, there are now errors.  Because Liebenberg - now Joe Coetzer, did Joe Coetzer brief you?

JIMMY MBANE: No, he never briefed me.  The person who briefed us is the person who is based here in Cape Town and I've said that it's Liebenberg.

MR BOOYENS: So, in fact - and Bellingan wasn't in a position to brief you because he wasn't in Cape Town either.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: Bellingan was our Commander from Vlakplaas.  On our arrival, he was just told of the suspects, and he will tell us who will be in command, and then we will report to the person concerned.