Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

DR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson.  I wonder if I could put a very short statement to you.  We have heard a great deal about the Mandela United Football Club, as you know for the last nine days.  If I were to describe that having listened to all the evidence that this was a very good idea, that went very badly wrong, how would you respond?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Second is, and I am being as brief as I can because I know what is going to happen next to me here, the Chairman is going to rule me out of order, you mentioned that it was Ms Falati who went to the manse to fetch the youngsters, let's call them youngsters for a moment.  Under whose authority would she have done that, I mean would she have taken it upon herself, surely she would have had to get permission seeing she was taking them to your property?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, she did bring them on her own authority as I have stated.

DR BORAINE: And once you realised that they were there, and that already there was some concern because they were staying in one place as refugees in the Methodist manse, were taken out, brought to your place, you discovered it when you came back, why didn't you take them back?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think I have explained that on my return from Brandfort I was unwell, and she gave me a report to the effect that these youths were there and they would be there, I think if I recollect actually properly, until Father Paul Verryn returned from holiday.  Something to that effect, but it was a question of placing them there whilst he was away.

DR BORAINE: Now, there was a lot of concern at the time and we won't go over all the very many people, the Crisis Committee and others who came and Dr Motlana, the Church leaders and so on expressing concern and you were here when we were putting questions to them and saying for example why didn't you ask to see the children, why didn't you examine the children or whatever.  Wouldn't it have been easier if from the very first moment you said now listen, I can understand your concern, you say you care for these kids, come let you meet them and then if you have got accommodation for them, take them away.
 They seemed to be of the opinion that (a), they couldn't see them, and second that you were reluctant to let them go, is that true?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, that was a wrong impression Deputy Chairman.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Now what has been said on many occasions and I have myself said, during these hearings that there have been lies and half lies and truths and half truths and extraordinary to try and sort out who is telling the truth and who is not and you please accept my word, that we are trying very hard to get to the truth.
 A number of allegations were made that people were actually assaulted, young people, on your property.  Not in your house, but on your property, is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I heard evidence here that for instance Zinzi is supposed to have inscribed ANC letters on some youngster's chest and of course in addition to that are the allegations of the three boys.

DR BORAINE: And some of those allegations are that you participated in that.  Let's leave that for a moment, let me ask you.  You are a very, I am not asking what you think, I am saying to you that I think you are a very powerful charismatic person, a leader.
 I really don't think that is in dispute, but these were allegations made by let's take Kenny, just one example, who escapes, the word used by your daughter allegedly, and has a lot of injuries.  He is taken to a Doctor, that is confirmed and I think it was in the trial, it was stated.
 How was it possible for some of these things to take place when they were really in the back of your own house.  I mean, if they took place, they would hear them scream, wouldn't you go and say what the hell is going on here, what is happening here, you know?  That is what is confusing me, try and help me there.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you recall Deputy Chairman, I don't even remember Kgase properly, when I returned from Brandfort, I am not sure exactly when he escaped, so I didn't know Kgase.  I know the two boys I subsequently saw later on.
 I was not there when this is supposed to have taken place on that particular day.  About what is alleged to have taken place at my old house, where Zinzi is supposed to have whipped and I think someone also said I joined in that type of thing, that did not happen.  It is a total fabrication.

DR BORAINE: Right, thank you.  This is my last couple of very small points.  First, and I don't want to refer back to former trials, but we have had to read everything we possibly could surrounding this hearing.
 Judge O'Dowson, you will recall is the Judge, he made a finding and he stated and I would really like you to comment on his statement, and I will read it to you:
 Mrs Mandela punched and slapped each one of them, referring to the four youngsters and called for a sjambok to be brought to her.  Each of the four was beaten by Mrs Mandela.  You must remember hearing that then, what do you say about that now against the background of so many of these allegations?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In the Stompie trial?

DR BORAINE: That is right, yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is why the same Judge, Judge (indistinct) who delivered a very vicious judgement considered that it was true that I was not there.

DR BORAINE: Stompie has become almost a symbol in South Africa.  You, Richardson says and many of them concur that he was beaten far more viciously than anyone else and the allegation was that it was because he was thought to be an informer, and we all know now that he died a very cruel death and you yourself have acknowledged your own sorrow about that.
 Again, how was it possible for this youngster to be so badly assaulted and then finally killed within your own property and then taken from your property according to Richardson, and killed without you knowing it?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I have stated here sir, that I did not believe that Stompie was an informer in the first place and I do not believe that was the reason Richardson killed that boy.  I believe the truth still has to be sought from Richardson why he would kill a 13 year old boy on the allegations that he was an informer.
 Supposing he was truly that informer, what information could a 13 year old gather of what security risk could that child have been to anyone?

DR BORAINE: The assault on Stompie took place in those back rooms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: So I understand.

DR BORAINE: And he was there for a number of days and by a range of witnesses, he was looking very, very ill and badly assaulted, his head was swollen, his hands, he couldn't hold the cup and so on.  Was this never brought to your attention that he was there in the back of your house, in that condition?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all sir.

DR BORAINE: Okay, the final question, similar to Ms Sooka, the one overwhelming problem that I have about this hearing is that there seems to be either there is a conspiracy theory or even a conspiracy directed against you, by a wide range of people.  Not only the youngsters that came here and Mr Morgan and the whole succession of people, Richardson, but also fairly significant people in the community.
 The Crisis Committee, the MDM, the church leaders, the ANC statement, all concerned about the behaviour and activities and criminal activities of the Club, whether they were playing soccer throughout or not.  It doesn't seem to matter.
 How do you explain this overarching allegation, condemnation of yourself in relation to the Club and the feeling that you ought to have been able to stop it, how do you explain that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: May I suggest that we deal with that aspect in the same context with the response to Rev Mgojo?