Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-14

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I just want to go back a little bit.  I want to say this.  The said Brig Gqozo, it was very difficult to communicate with him directly.  There were officers, our senior officers, who were together with Commissioner Nqoya who used to do this - if they were actually against anything that was taking place in Ciskei, they would come and threaten us and tell us that we were going to lose our jobs and in that process they were doing whatever they liked in the police and they would do whatever pleases them, as I have already explained here as I was giving evidence.   It became clear that if he had called us, at least we will manage to voice out whatever and tell him that enough is enough, because it was after the incident where 27 people died in Ciskei and that Brig Gqozo was still there and we were even protecting him after such incident.  That caused us to try and sit and discuss with the officers, that is what caused the dissatisfaction among the officers, that is why the others laid charges against us and the others said that we pointed them with firearms, but that kind of an action I am saying I do not say it did not happen.  Yes, it might have happened though myself I did not do that but because of the action that I took by influencing the other policemen, I am here today to apply for amnesty.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you influence police to go and kidnap the officers and also to hold them hostage?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I did influence police to call the officers and call each and every policeman that was in the area, but the procedure that they used when they were calling those police, they know about it, but I do believe that that was a result of the influence - that was the result of what I did trying to influence the police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So if I understand you well, you did not instruct any policeman to point a firearm to an officer and to forcefully bring an officer from his office or from his home to the Bisho police hall.  You did not do that.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I did instruct them to bring the police members, Ciskei police, but I did not tell them how to do that.  They decided on what they did.  That is why I am here today, I'm asking for amnesty, it's because of the procedure they used while trying to bring those police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mfene, are you accepting the manner in which they executed that instruction, are you accepting responsibility?  In other words, are you associating yourself with the way in which they have gone about securing the attendance of these officers at the college?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I'll try and answer like this.  The role that I played, or according to the role that I played there I am asking for amnesty.  Those people who were doing that after the meeting we had, after that incident, we met and discussed and I told them that one, two and three was wrong, but as a person, as an individual, I am here today and I am asking for amnesty because things were happening with a blink of an eye during the night and the other people who were taking chances, that is why I am saying that I cannot dispute the fact that the others were taken hostage and kidnapped or pointed with firearms, though I did not do that myself, I am asking for amnesty because that was the result of my action.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were part of the group of police and you accept that whatever happened during this incident was part of your common goal as a group of policemen.  Is that how we should understand what you are saying?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nompozolo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Now, did you at any stage during the occurrences at Bisho college hall or subsequent to that, learn that the officers were abducted or kidnapped from their houses to Bisho police college at gun-point and also that they were held at gun-point at Bisho police college?  Did that ever come to your knowledge?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I remember one person who came to me to complain about such behaviour or such conduct.  It was Commissioner Nqoya who said to me the police knocked at his house at the windows.  He was laying a charge because of that.  That is what led to me, after talking to all these policemen, I criticised that action.  At that moment as I was there at the college I still remember very well, the stage of that college is similar to this hall.  There were officers at the podium and we were here on the tables, just in front of them and they were just behind me.  No one was pointed at with a firearm who was told to remain there.  All the police were sitting like the people in the audience.  The police would go via me to go to the podium to speak to the other officers, though it was not really necessary for them to go up to the officers, but they didn't go there when I was still there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: In your evidence in chief you testified that as far as you were aware all the policemen who went into the hall, they did that voluntarily coming from either their offices or wherever.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I said most of them went there voluntarily without being asked.  Most of them heard that there was a meeting at the college hall and they just decided to go there and they got inside, that is what I said.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So then why would you - sorry Mr Chair.  But now at that stage, that is on the 22nd and the 23rd of March 1994, at that stage it never came to your knowledge that some policemen were pointed with firearms?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I heard that when the concept of kidnapping was mentioned and they said there were firearms and I was charged for kidnapping, of which I was later acquitted by the Regional Court, acquitted of that charge.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were you acquitted of kidnapping or was it withdrawn?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: It was dismissed.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you were not acquitted, it was withdrawn.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So why are you applying for amnesty for holding hostage when nobody, when you saw nobody being held hostage?  All of those people were acting on your influence but they never held anyone hostage.  Why are you applying for amnesty for that?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: I had explained that I did not mention anything about hostage because it was dismissed.  I did mention that it was withdrawn from the docket.  Yes it was there in the docket but it was later dismissed on my side.  I am here because of mutiny.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Had you been convicted of hostage, would you apply for amnesty for it?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Surely I was going to do that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, would I be correct to say you are only applying for amnesty for the things you have been convicted for, otherwise you're not telling the Commission what happened at Bisho police college and as such applying for amnesty?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: The reason for me to be here, charges were laid against me.  I am not here to listen or to know what's going on here because a charge was laid.  If that charge was not laid or if I did not know the proper channels to come to TRC because of something that I did, perhaps I was not convicted for that, I wouldn't be here today.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I don't understand.

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: Let me explain briefly.  If no one had laid a charge against me, I wouldn't be here today.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is there a policeman on the junior officers or non-commissioned officers who was at Bisho police college who ever came to you and said "I pointed so and so with a firearm and I brought him from his office or from his home to Bisho police college on your instructions"?  Is there a policeman who ever said that to you?

KWANELE ARTHUR MFENE: No.