Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't know the matter of the money, the money was found in the truck.  I know that by the time we got out of the truck, I had a gun that was given to me by Thandekulo.  That is what I had, and when I got out of the truck, I left it in the truck.
	Even my co-accused, when he got out of the truck, he left the gun behind in the truck.  That is because we could see that the way that the Police came to us, they were going to beat us up.
	We didn't want them to see that we've got weapons.  Truly when they got to us, they asked what, where are you taking the white man's truck, they didn't ask anything else, they just beat us up.
	They beat my co-accused more than I, a lot, they were using a gun, hitting him on the head.

INTERPRETER: Could the applicant please repeat those names?

ZAMA THUTHA: He was being beaten up by Nqeba Mheti, a Policeman and Captain Magahlela, they beat him up on the head with the gun.
	I don't know the other Policemen's names.  There was Madondo from Duncan, his name was Dubula, he used to work in Bizana, he is the one who was trying to stop the other Policemen from beating us up.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, you have listened to your co-applicant, or co-accused as you put it, giving evidence in this court, in this committee, before this Committee.

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And he told the Committee that Donnie, when you left the scene where you took the truck and you left her father, she was unconscious up until your RV spot in Mbashi and you are telling the Committee that that is not the case, if I can put it that way, by your evidence.
	Can you explain what would have been the reason that you saw her that she was conscious and he saw her as somebody who was unconscious, can you explain to the Committee?

ZAMA THUTHA: If a person is walking on her two feet, can you see that they are unconscious, their state of mind?

MR MBANDAZAYO: He told the Committee that when you took her out of the truck, you were carrying her and you put her through the fence and she was unconscious, she couldn't do anything on her own.  That is what I am trying to get at, but you are just telling us that she was walking on her feet, but she was resisting.
	Can you tell the Committee?

ZAMA THUTHA: Another thing that happened is that my co-accused as he was beaten on the head, he was never fine again.  Even to this day, he is not the same.  If he has been in the sun or anything, he can't remember what happened the previous day.
	He is not under treatment, prison authorities don't care about his illness, he is not being treated.  He is not well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying to this Committee the events that happened on the 27th of August, are as you are narrating to this Committee?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes.  If I don't remember anything, I will say that I don't remember, that I have forgotten.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just one last aspect, can you tell the Committee was Donnie shot at the scene where Mike Meyers was also, the initial spot, was she shot there?

ZAMA THUTHA: The first place as we met her, please repeat your question.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way, you told the Committee that you heard a shot, a gunshot and you looked on the left side of the truck, you didn't see your co-accused and you ran to the right hand if I am correct, and you saw Mike Meyers, and you thought that he is the person who was shooting, and you shot him.
	Now, what I am asking you is that the first shot that you heard, did that first shot hit Donnie Meyers?

ZAMA THUTHA: I don't know who that first shot hit.  As we were doing the operation, I had my job.  Everybody has their particular role, just look at their roles.
	You can't be looking at everybody else's roles whilst you have not finished your own role.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you see whether she has any blood on her face when you were driving to your RV place, following Thandekulo?

ZAMA THUTHA: I said previously that ...

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the last statement.

ZAMA THUTHA: I said that when we got into the truck, I looked under the driver's seat and behind the driver's seat.
	When I realised that there was nothing there to find, I looked in front of me, I could not see anything.  On top of the dashboard there was nothing.  I looked on the left side, the floor, that there was a bag with tools.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.

ZAMA THUTHA: I also noticed that there was a white person in the truck, I didn't even notice whether it was male or female because she was wearing pants with tackies and a shirt.
	The head was bent over, I could not differentiate whether it was a male or a female.  I could not even see blood.  I did not see blood there.
	Yes, I did hear the sound from the weapon.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When you were taking her out of the car at Mbashi, did you see any blood on her?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not see blood in the truck.  I did not take note of her, I don't look at Boers, I don't care about Boers.

CHAIRPERSON: You were holding this person and dragging them along?

ZAMA THUTHA: I was not holding the person.  I was walking next to the person.  It is my co-accused who was holding her.  I just made sure that she was able to be taken over the fence.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never noticed any blood at that time, is that the position?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not look, I did not take note.  I did not care about her.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you making sure that she walked along?

ZAMA THUTHA: What do you mean I was making sure?

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing, what part were you playing?

ZAMA THUTHA: The time that she got out?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ZAMA THUTHA: She was taken out of the truck, she had to be taken over the fence.  It is not only one person who would be able to take her over the fence, therefore I had to help.  I had to hold her to take her over the fence.

CHAIRPERSON: And didn't you help to do things to make her walk?  You told us she walked on her two feet, she resisted.  I had to go and help, take her, she had to be dragged, didn't want to go.  Have you forgotten that you told us all that a few minutes ago?

ZAMA THUTHA: I would say that it was help that I was there, my presence, because if she realised that there were two people, it would help.  When she started resisting, she could only see one person, then I came along.

CHAIRPERSON: But she was in the big van with the two of you, she knew there were two of you and now there was a third person?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, there was a third person too.  But at that time, in her view, she could not see Thandekulo.  I also got out of the truck and went to close the gates from behind the truck, she could not see me at the time either.
	She even the person that was speaking when she was in the truck, it was only one voice and she could only see one person.
	I then came along to help from behind the truck.  I went around the right side of the truck and they were on the passenger side.  She only saw me when I got there to help with the fence.

CHAIRPERSON: I am afraid I don't understand all this of yours.  You were the driver, weren't you?

ZAMA THUTHA: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And she would have known there was a driver, driving the truck, who stopped the truck, wouldn't she?  That he wasn't the person sitting next to her, holding her bent forward?
	Why are you being so evasive about this Mr Thutha?

ZAMA THUTHA: Judge Wilson, please don't be angry when you are talking to me.  You are going to spoil this if you are going to be angry at me.
	Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you trying now to give the impression that she didn't know you were there, when you were the driver of the truck, she must have known there was a driver there?

ZAMA THUTHA: Judge Wilson, this is what I am saying to you, please listen carefully.
	When she was taken out of the truck, she at that point, she could only see one person.