Amnesty Hearings — East London — 2000-02-03

CHAIRPERSON: Yes about two to three paces I should imagine that you've pointed out?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Major Mbene, did you see him shoot, that is use his firearm and shoot at anyone?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.

MR KOOPEDI: He did not?  Yourself, did you shoot at anyone?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.

MR KOOPEDI: You did not, okay.  Perhaps let's talk a little about this minimal force, the one you spoke about which you say was your initiative.  Does minimal force refer to opening fire with live ammunition directly on people?  Can it be one of the instances of minimal force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: It can be.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, what are the limits of this minimum force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: The limits of minimum force is to not to shoot to kill but to - or to stop the person from carrying those intentions.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.  If you could bear with me Chairperson?
	Now another aspect, you've said that you were told before this day that there was going to be this march.  In fact there was a coup planned and that some MK people would be present within the marchers.  Did I hear you correctly?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: And you further said that you were afraid, is that correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I was.

MR KOOPEDI: Now do you think that after having heard what you had heard and after realising that you were actually afraid of what might happen, do you think that you were a fit and proper person to be in command of so many troops with lethal weapons on that day?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Through my experience of the crowd control I was not fit for that at that specific time because I was never experienced to control such a crowd using a leather weapon or any weapons or non-leather weapons.

MR KOOPEDI: Which would mean that - perhaps let me phrase it this way, could you not have said to anyone that I am not qualified to handle this operation?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No it was an order and instruction.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now let's go back to - let's go back to the order that you received.  The order was related to you in Afrikaans which was to the effect that "skiet terug" if I heard you correctly, meaning "shoot back".  Now your testimony was that you heard shots.  You also said in your testimony that you do not know where these shots came from which means you could not point from any direction where they came from?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Would it then be fair to say that you are being shot at when actually you don't know that, you heard what you though was shots.  My question is, would it be fair then to say "I am being shot at" when in fact you're not?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, it won't be fair Sir but at that stage the sound of a weapon that was used or the shots, was coming from the crowd but we don't know they were pointing in which direction.  Maybe to us or to the air or ...(intervention)

MR KOOPEDI: I will say this that I initially understood you to say you did not hear from which direction the shots came from but I hear you now saying that the shots came from the direction of the crowd?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Which is which, the second part?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I say Sir at the best, the shots were from the crowd because you can hear that shots are coming from this direction.  They were not from behind us but from the crowd, those were the only people who I believe that they can fire to us.

MR KOOPEDI: Now according to your evidence no one in your immediate vicinity fell down or was wounded or was in fact shot at by this crowed, is that correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would it not be correct then to say that the information you relate to your superiors was false?  The information to Van der Bank to say that we're being shot at, would it be not correct to say that was false because no one was being shot at?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I cannot say that was false because even if I can shoot to that direction I cannot hit somebody.  The fact that it's that they were firing shots there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but if I understand you correctly, Van der Bank told you in effect that if you are being fired at you must shoot back?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words what Van der Bank was telling you was to defend yourself?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be a correct understanding of what Van der Bank told you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir because I assumed that maybe this firing was directed to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so what Van der Bank was saying "look Mkosana, if they're shooting at you then shoot back at them"?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Defend yourselves.  So was that the situation?  Is that what happened.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, that was the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now I think Mr Koopedi's question now is, did you in fact ascertain that people were shooting at you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you ascertain that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Because there were no other people who were coming to our front, there were only the marchers who were coming direct to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: So I ascertained that maybe people are shooting to us.

CHAIRPERSON: So you inferred, you assumed?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You formed a conclusion that it must be these people who are shooting at us?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Positive.

CHAIRPERSON: And you heard how many shots?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: About two or three shots.

CHAIRPERSON: Two or three shots.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And then it was quiet?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It was quiet.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you speak over the radio?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You say "look, Van der Bank, they're shooting at us"?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, the crowd was storming at us.

CHAIRPERSON: Right?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: And then we heard the shots.

CHAIRPERSON: Right?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: And then that said now they were closer to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Then I said now they are shooting to us, what must I do.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are busy speaking on the radio with Van der Bank?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Right then he says to you as we now know "Mkosana, shoot them if they shoot you".

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  So after you spoke to Van der Bank was there still shooting going on?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you gave your order?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Yes Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Perhaps just to round up or sum up this portion you say you assumed that you are being shot at?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: That's correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: But when you spoke to Van der Bank you did not tell him that "I think we are being shot at" or "I'm making this assumption", you definitely said to him "we are being shot at", is that correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would I be correct to say that the information you relate to Van der Bank was incorrect in that you were not being shot at, you were not certain that you had been shot at, is that the situation?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes in that manner Sir I will fully agree with you because none of my groups on the vehicle was shot but the shots were there.

MR KOOPEDI: I would then perhaps put it further to you that you fraudulently obtained the order, the order to shoot.  What would be your reaction?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I cannot say Sir that was a fraudulent order because ...(intervention)