Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember well whether they were assaulted in the kitchen but I remember they were assaulted in the bedroom.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you assault anyone of them in the kitchen?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: There is such a probability that I participated in the kitchen, as well as in the kitchen, but the one that I remember well is the incident in the bedroom.

CHAIRPERSON: But you do not recall assaulting them in the kitchen?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It might have happened that I assaulted someone in the kitchen, but this is something that happened twelve years back, I would therefore not be in a position to remember all the details, it had been a long time since this incident, but there is such a possibility that I started assaulting them from the kitchen to the bedroom.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  I put it to you that the assault in the kitchen took place for at least - for between an hour and an hour and a half, that people of your group restrained these youths by holding them, stripped them of their clothing, took away their money, their shoes, expensive shoes, expensive clothing, took away their watches and that they were given old clothes in return and that they were restrained and assaulted, beaten with iron bars and the buts of guns and the axe.  Does that detail jog your memory, can you remember that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Mr Ameen if I say I do not remember what happened in the kitchen, I do not mean this did not happen at all.  It is possible that it might have happened in general, they were heavily assaulted, yes I might agree, it might have happened.  If I say I do not remember it happening I don't actually mean it did not take place.

MR AMEEN: In this group that were busy ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry to interrupt you Mr Ameen.  This question has two legs, you have answered the first leg.  The first leg of it was whether assault did take place in the kitchen.  Now you have told us that you don't remember assault taking place in the kitchen.  The second leg of the question is, which you haven't responded to, which I think you should, is that this people were restrained in the kitchen area for about one and a half hours, their clothes taken away, their watches and they were given old clothes.  That is the second leg of the question.  Were their clothes taken away from them, given old clothes, watches taken away, expensive shoes taken away?  That is the second leg of the question.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Can I ask Mr Ameen a question before answering this.  Is he referring to three people?

MR AMEEN: Whether six or three or two or what, any number of people that you remember had their clothes taken off or away from them, their watches, any number of them.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Truly speaking I do not remember whether such a thing happened but still it does not rule the probability that it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that it is possible you've forgotten that somebody had his clothes taken off his body, his watch taken away, his shoes taken away?  Are you saying that you might have forgotten that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not remember well, but I do not disagree that it might have happened.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, if their clothes were taken away and their watches and their shoes, what would have been the purpose of taking away their clothes?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I mentioned earlier on that I do not recall such an incident but I am not disputing the fact that it might have happened, but I do not recall it happening.

ADV SIGODI: You're not answering the question.  You say you do not dispute that it might have happened, therefore you are saying there is a possibility that it might have happened.  What I'm asking is, if there is this possibility and you foresee that it's something that could have happened in your presence, but you've forgotten about it, what do you think would have been the purpose of taking away the shoes, the watch, the clothes and stripping them?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: If ever it happened, if people are engaged in a state of war any means brutal is used to get information.  It might be one of the reasons why their clothes were taken away from them.

ADV SIGODI: Where would you have obtained the old clothes from?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I am talking of the probabilities, I'm not talking of something that I am sure of, that is why I cannot give you a clear indication as to who, where they got the clothes from, the old clothes.

ADV SIGODI: Do you remember what the victims were wearing that day?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember.

MR MALAN: May I just ask you, what did Oscar, what was he wearing that day?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember what kind of clothes he had on that day.

MR MALAN: Do you remember that he wore a belt?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, he had a belt.

MR MALAN: But you can't remember the clothes?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember, I don't remember what kind of clothes they were but he had clothes on.

ADV SIGODI: When the victims were brought to you, you said you could remember them from the clothes that they wore when the were walking up and down the street.  Do you remember that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I remember.

ADV SIGODI: Do you remember who was wearing a T-shirt with an RMC written, Release Mandela Campaign?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The one who had an RMC Campaign T-shirt was in the other bedroom with Oscar but on top of the T-shirt he had a shirt.

ADV SIGODI: And do you remember who was wearing a T-shirt with a UDF sign?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, he was also in the room with Oscar, they were three in that room.

ADV SIGODI: But you can't remember what Oscar was wearing?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Oscar had clothes, but I cannot remember the details as to what kind of clothes they were.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he wearing a watch, was Oscar wearing a watch?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember.

MR AMEEN: I put it to you earlier that the six youths had been kept in the kitchen, assaulted, restrained, clothes taken off, all of that for about one to one and a half hours and thereafter they were moved, separated into two groups and were moved into two bedrooms.  Is that correct?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct, they were split up into different rooms.

MR AMEEN: And you were in the group which has Oscar in that group, of which Oscar was a part?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct.

MR AMEEN: Now you testified yesterday that you did not know these six youths, that they were not know personally to you, that you had recognised them as being part of a group which had been chanting and singing in front of Jeff Ngani's (?) house, you didn't know them personally.  Is that correct?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct, I did not know them personally.

MR AMEEN: How then do you keep referring to Oscar as if you know him personally.  You've referred to him in the way you manhandled him, in the way you held him by his belt and in the way you pushed him into the boot and in the way you took him personally and shot him.  Tell me how you know him personally.  Did you know him personally?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did not personally know Oscar.  During the interrogation I came to know about his name, when I was interrogating him I got his name.

MR AMEEN: Did you get the names of the others during interrogation?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I mentioned yesterday that I concentrated a lot on Oscar, that is the reason why I remember him.

MR AMEEN: Explain to this committee why in particular you concentrated on Oscar.  There were six people altogether, all of them according to you had been seen as being part of the group which had intimidated you people and which according to you had been responsible for burning your comrade's home.  Why chose on one of them in particular?