Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

LUVUYO KULMAN: I can't comment about it because I was being searched by the Police on one side, and he on the other side.  I can't comment on that.

MR PRIOR: Is there any reason why you didn't hand over the money when you saw Thandekulo there in the forest, him being the Administrator of your Organisation or Regiment, Group?

LUVUYO KULMAN: We had not gotten to that destination where we were going to surrender everything.

MR PRIOR: All right, thank you, and finally in respect of your evidence, your initial evidence yesterday that the reason why you initially didn't want to plead, and then changed your plea, was to protect APLA and the Transkei.  I just need to put to you that it had appeared in the Heidelberg matter, Mr Chairman, that in January 1994 Gen Holomisa, had issues summons against the Minister of Police, of Law and Order for allegations made by Colonel Snyman after the Heidelberg attack that Holomisa was harbouring APLA bases in the Transkei, and that - if the Committee will recall, if Mr Chairman will recall, that was made, there was quite a large issue made during the Sibaya incident, which was investigated at length or extensively canvassed at that hearing.
	What I want to put to this witness is that as of July 1994, when your trial started, already there was tremendous publicity given to the fact that APLA had bases in the Transkei.  Do you accept that position that there was publicity, there was press reports, there were legal action taken by General Holomisa against the then Minister of Law and Order?

LUVUYO KULMAN: That APLA was in the Transkei?

MR PRIOR: Yes, it wasn't a secret at that stage, as of January 1994 and therefore there would have been no reason for you to want to keep it a secret in July of 1994?

LUVUYO KULMAN: APLA did have bases in the Transkei, however people could not identify the locations.  They did not know where these bases were.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, I have no further questions.

MR PRIOR: .

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Kulman, when you made your application in chief, was there anybody assisting you in making your application, explaining to you the requirements and what you have to put and what you don't have to put in your application?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I made the application myself.

UNKNOWN: Both applications, both?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Correct.  I only got my representative's assistance whilst writing my affidavit.

ADV SANDI: Mr Kulman, how did you get to know that there was this opportunity to apply for amnesty, how did it come to you?

LUVUYO KULMAN: It was on TV and at the time, everybody knew about the existence of the TRC, that they wanted people who wanted to apply for amnesty and to reveal what they were involved in.

ADV SANDI: I take it that you got the amnesty application forms from the prison authorities, is that correct?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: We have heard evidence that PAC members, high ranking PAC people, APLA Commanders went around to the prisons to encourage their people to apply for amnesty.  In some cases lawyers went around as well, helping them.  Did you not meet any of these people, or did they not come to your prison?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Letlapa got to me, however I had processed my application form already.  I had finished everything concerning the filling of my TRC form.

CHAIRPERSON: Which form, the first or the second one?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Both.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  When you were making your affidavit, did you become aware now of the requirements of the TRC regarding your application?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Please repeat your question.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Before you appeared before this Committee, you made an affidavit.  Now, my question is, did you become aware now of the requirements for applying for amnesty?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I only knew when my representative told me what was important in the affidavit, but prior to that, I did not know.  It is only when I was going to write my affidavit that I knew.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me finally ask you about this incident.  Is it your evidence that you shot Donnie Meyers where you robbed the truck, where you left Mr Meyers?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also your evidence that when you reached Mbashi, you met Thandekulo and he is the person who again shot Donnie Meyers?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also your evidence that the reason why you can't remember what happened in your trial, is because you did not want to participate in the trial?  You didn't care what will happen to you, because you did not recognise the system there, that is the judicial system?

LUVUYO KULMAN: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: .

CHAIRPERSON: But you have told us that you consulted with high ranking persons before  you changed your plea, hadn't you?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Please remind me sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you had said that you consulted with high ranking people, it was in that extract of the record that was given to you and read?
	That you and your co-accused had consulted with higher authority and that was one of the reasons why you were now changing your plea?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chair.  Mr Kulman, if you can just help me in relation to the planning of this operation as you know, Thandekulo cannot be here to explain anything at all, and we have to rely on what you know of this matter.
	You reconnoitred this mission you have told us?  Yes?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Over what period of time before the incident?

LUVUYO KULMAN: The reconnaissance?

UNKNOWN: Yes?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I can't remember clearly.

UNKNOWN: But you would estimate a week, I heard you say "iveki", one week before the incident?

MR LAX: Sorry, he said two weeks actually, previously?

LUVUYO KULMAN: It could happen, I can't remember clearly because this happened in 1993.

UNKNOWN: The important point that I just need to establish is, it was just before the incident, in the week or two weeks just before the incident, is this right?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, it could happen that it is a week or two, I can't be exactly sure how long it took, between a week or two.

UNKNOWN: Now, did you establish that Mike Meyers used regular routes in that one week or two weeks before the incident?

LUVUYO KULMAN: There is a road in the Transkei from Elliot, that is the road that he used, then he would come to Nqobo.
	It is a pity I don't know Transkei very well, I don't know the areas within the Transkei well.

UNKNOWN: Are you saying that you found out that he uses one road all of the time, is this what you are saying?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now two days, Wednesday before the Friday, did you see him delivering milk?  Wednesday, Thursday did you see him delivering milk as you were investigating and reconnoitring and checking out?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I can't remember, but what he would do is this.  He would not come every day, he would come on specific times.
	I can't remember whether I did see him on the Wednesday, this happened a long time ago.

UNKNOWN: You see the reason I ask, there are actually two reasons I ask, one is how did you know that on that specific day he would be in the area, and at that particular village at that particular time?  Can you just explain this?  And - yes, let me leave it at that.

LUVUYO KULMAN: He would come and not come sometimes, however he would not spend a lot of time not having come.
	I did the reconnaissance and I saw which times he came.  On the time that he did come, we had planned, that we were going to execute the operation.

UNKNOWN: This is precisely what I don't quite understand.  How did you know that on that Friday he would be at that particular spot at that particular village?  Just take us through your morning?