Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-02

ADV GCABASHE: Did you personally see him patrolling with IFP members?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I saw, I only saw him taking Jabu's firearm.

ADV GCABASHE: Now Jabu, the other Jabu, is one of your comrades, as SDU member, and that's whose firearm was taken?  Are we talking about two Jabulanes?  I'm not sure I understand you.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, we have two Jabus.

ADV GCABASHE: And you also indicated earlier that he, it's not just one firearm that was lost, it sounds like quite a few firearms were lost by Jabu Dube.  Did I understand you correctly?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: So we're talking about one firearm going missing?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, what is the surname of this other Jabu whose firearm was taken?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Sorry.

MR SIBANYONI: What is the surname of the Jabu whose firearm was taken?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Madi is the surname.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman my instructions is that the family is only opposing the fact that the applicant is saying that the deceased was an IFP member.  They can't contest the contents of the rest of the evidence, because they don't have any first hand factual information regarding this. I'm not going to waste, with all due respect to the Chairman, any further time on this.  The basic fact is, as far as the family is concerned, that the deceased was never a member of the IFP.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: On the same issue, did you ask Jabu about his membership of the IFP?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: No.

ADV GCABASHE: But you were his friend.  Why didn't you in particular go out of your way to find out whether it was true or not?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: At that particular time there was no time to question because the order was already issued, one was supposed to do his job.

ADV GCABASHE: Did anybody else verify for you, the commander, that Jabu was indeed an IFP member?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: That was heard when there was a meeting Khatlele School.

ADV GCABASHE: Now just help me understand this.  Was this one report of one time that somebody saw Jabu with IFP members?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: On that day of the meeting, we heard that it happened one Friday he was seen entering the Penduka section and at the time the people from the other section were not allowed to get into Penduka section because the people had already vacated their houses.  Jabu was seen going to his home.  He was coming from work.

ADV GCABASHE: So his parents, his mother, still lived in Penduka, and this where he was going to.  Is that a correct summary?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I am not sure that he, I am not sure whether his mother is still staying there, but I see her sometimes.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, I probably didn't express this properly.  At the time Jabu was seen going to Penduka, was his mother still living in Penduka?  Was his home still in Penduka?  At that time, in 1993?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I did not see his mother there but if my memory serves me well I think both his parents were there, were still  there at Penduka section, if I'm not mistaken.  I am not sure about that.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, the reason I ask you this is because you have told us you were the commander and you gave the order that he should be killed.  I'm really trying to find out what the basis of the order was.  Why, you gave that order?  You would give that order because you had certain information.  Am I right, so far?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, but I was also in the meeting on a Sunday.  It was the SDU meeting that was held at Khatlele School that is where the decisions were taken as to who, what people, who, what people were to be killed and amongst those names Jabu's name was there.

ADV GCABASHE: But as I understand your testimony, you are saying that the incident that he was, or that the members referred to, was the one time that he went into Penduka after all your comrades had moved out of Penduka.  Is that correct?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes, we were not at Penduka section at the time.

ADV GCABASHE: What I'm just trying to find out is, were there other times that he was seen to go into what you considered to be enemy territory?  Or are we really just talking about one time?  This is all I'm trying to establish.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I'll try and explain this.  There were people who would say that they did not go to Penduka, but those people would be seen entering Penduka section and they would go and visit their friends or relative at Penduka section, 'though those people were said not to be entering that place.

ADV GCABASHE: But you would not necessarily kill those people, because you knew that their families remained in Penduka.  Or am I wrong?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: We were forced by the situation because there was a certain date that was set by the SDU's that on such and such a date if the people were not, all the people were not at Slovo section or Tambo section, the people who would be left at the Penduka section would be regarded as Inkatha members.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are, am I correct in saying that it is quite possible in that case that he indeed was not an IFP member and that he was just visiting his family, on the occasion that he was seen going to Penduka after the cut-off date?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I agree and at the same time I disagree with that.  It might happen that he was not a member of IFP and we did not know his movement whenever he was in that Penduka section.  But when we were at Tambo Slovo he did not want to appear so we did not understand his position.  We couldn't understand his movement but the decision was taken to remove him.

ADV GCABASHE: You couldn't understand why he would not come and talk to you if he was indeed still one of your comrades essentially.  And is this what eventually led to your decision to kill him?  The fact that he wouldn't come and talk to you about where he stood.

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I do not have evidence to that effect.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	You said when he was called to a meeting, or he left the meeting, when he was told that you wanted to see him, is that correct?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: At that stage he had not been told about the allegations against him, when he left.  Is that so?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: It used to happen that if there was a certain suspect in a community we wouldn't show that and indicate that something was going to be done.  That particular suspect would be free just like anyone.

MR SIBANYONI: If he didn't leave the meeting, what was going to happen?  Were you going to confront him about the allegation, or was there any action supposed to be taken against him?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: I cannot tell because if the instruction was already issued that someone is supposed to be killed, all the soldiers knew that he was supposed to be killed.  I cannot say anything about his safety, whether if he did stay he was to be safe or not.  I cannot say anything about that.

MR SIBANYONI: So if we understand you correctly, there is no stage where these allegations were put to him, until the time the action was taken?

SIDNEY VINCENT NKOSI: He had other comrades that were telling him and they told him that he is no longer trustworthy among the comrades.  His only alternative was for him to come forward and explain his position.

MR SIBANYONI: So the basis of the suspicion that his is an IFP member was solely on the ground that he visited Penduka section?