Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

MR K LEBEA: According to my brother who was the unit commander, he told me that he intended that we were about to be 5 when we attack, so unfortunately he didn't get the fifth guy, so what was he telling here, it was the intention and the whole plan, but during the commitment of the operation, we were only 4.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told by your brother that after reconnaissance, he had realised that this operation could be carried out by 5 people?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I listen to your evidence and his evidence at least marry each other in this respect that you were trained on the last day, let's forget what he said, but you were trained on the last day when the weaponry was delivered.

MR K LEBEA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You were trained before the weaponry was delivered?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you aware that reconnaissance had been done already?

MR K LEBEA: No by that time I never knew the reconnaissance had been done because I never heard of any plan for the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went to the farm, what was told to you why you should attack that farm?

MR K LEBEA: When I went to the farm, what was told was that we go and repossess.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told about the location of the farm and how many people lived on that farm?

MR K LEBEA: Actually I didn't told how many people were living there, the person who was having that information was my brother, how many were living there.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you to repossess on that farm?

MR K LEBEA: Whatever material that  can be used to help further the struggle of the Pan Africanist Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: And you went purely on that basis, that you would take whatever is of value and would assist this struggle of the PAC?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I think the Committee has covered what I wanted to cover during the time of the interjection.  That's the evidence of the second applicant, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: I think later we should talk about your fee because it would appear we've got a hand in it.  Mr Kachelhoffer?

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR KACHELHOFFER: As we're sitting here today, both you and your brother have already been released from prison, is that right?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Okay.  That particular day during the early morning hours, how many shots have you fired with that 9mm pistol?

MR K LEBEA: Plus or minus, I remember I fired up to 3 or 4, if I'm not mistaken.

MR KACHELHOFFER: To whom did you aim at that stage?

MR K LEBEA: At the first stage to Mr van Tonder and then later it was when I was outside, before we broke the kitchen door, because I thought Mr van Tonder was inside so as the lights were on, on the curtain I saw something like as if it was somebody and I shot through the windows.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Did you at that stage realise that you hit Mrs van Tonder?

MR K LEBEA: No, I realised on the first occasion.

MR KACHELHOFFER: That she has been shot?

MR K LEBEA: That I was shooting him, I didn't realise but I shot him.

MR KACHELHOFFER: No, no, I'm referring to Mrs van Tonder, did you realise that you have shot her as well in the process?

MR K LEBEA: Well, it seems there is a little bit confusion here because what I wanted to stress out was that on the first occasion I shot Mrs van Tonder and then on the other occasions I shot through the window, so I never knew whom I was shooting.

MR KACHELHOFFER: So I'm asking, you didn't ..(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps clear that up.  On the first occasion, how many shots did you fire?

MR K LEBEA: One.

MR KACHELHOFFER: And did you hit anyone at that stage?

MR K LEBEA: On the first occasion?

MR KACHELHOFFER: Yes, the first occasion.

MR K LEBEA: Yes.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Whom?

MR K LEBEA: Mrs van Tonder.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Pardon?

MR K LEBEA: Mrs van Tonder.

MR KACHELHOFFER: So you will agree to the fact that she was hit in the chest by a 9mm bullet?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Can you just repeat from your side what the actual order of your superiors was, regarding this particular attack?

MR K LEBEA: The order was to go and repossess.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Only that?

MR K LEBEA: Only as it is, to go and repossess.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Not to attack and injure any white farmers as well, in other words?

MR K LEBEA: That was not specifically named like that, the order was to go and repossess.  When you go as a soldier, anyone who stands in front of you, you start with him or her.

MR KACHELHOFFER: So you have regarded it as a natural consequence, the fact that people might be injured in the process of repossession?

MR K LEBEA: If there is a need to.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Didn't you, during the reconnaissance process, consider the possibility to go to that particular farm whilst the people ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, Sir, he says he did not do that, he only went after the order was given that they must go and repossess, about the reconnaissance he knows nothing.  I covered that personally.

MR KACHELHOFFER: As the Committee pleases.    So I take it that you will concede that Mr and Mrs van Tonder were both very seriously injured during this attack?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

MR KACHELHOFFER: And from your testimony you clearly didn't bother about their well-being, but only about your brother's well-being at that stage?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

MR KACHELHOFFER: If one looks at the kind of weaponry used in this attack and the order as well and the measure of violence executed during this day on them, would you agree with me that they can regard themselves as lucky to be still alive today?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KACHELHOFFER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chair, just one question.

MS MTANGA: Mr Lebea, what happened to the money and the jewellery that you said you put in a safe place at your house?

MR K LEBEA: The police retrieved the whole of them.

MS MTANGA: Then in your response to the request for further particulars when you said some items were discovered by the police, or recovered by the police, what did you understand to be the items not recovered by the police?

MR K LEBEA: Well, what I understood was that the information of the police played the role on that answer, because the estimation of what was taken, the estimation amount money and the estimation of the amount money of what was recovered, was differing, so there could have been the suspect that maybe one of us may have took something because it sometimes happens, so it's the way that word "some of items" came, so ...

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lebea.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Just to make a difference, could we say King Lebea, so that we don't refer to your brother?

MR K LEBEA: Okay Sir, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope you don't mind that.

MR K LEBEA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: You say some might have been taken according to what the police said.  Some might have been taken.  Were you all arrested, I mean all the operatives?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir, but not on the same day.

CHAIRPERSON: How did - you said you stood at the door with your 9mm pistol, you recall saying so?  You didn't enter the house immediately, you entered the house after there was a lot of shouting.

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: The others who entered the premises, that is the house, because we know that you entered through the window, how did they enter the house?

MR K LEBEA: The same.

CHAIRPERSON: Through the window?

MR K LEBEA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And according to you, the only time a door was broken, it was by you and that was the kitchen door?