Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: Under oath, is that what you say under oath?  You are aware that you are under oath?  Thank you.
 Now, one last question, there is the other Verster, Joe Verster.  He was Head of the CCB and was it the practise that at the end of each year, he would submit to you for approval a year planning for the next year or following year, do you recall?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is quite correct.  At the end of the previous year, we had reports from all activities of the Special Forces and we submitted these for approval and then we got approval in principle and then we had to separately get approval for each operation.

CHAIRPERSON: And in the context of the CCB, would you be the person that Joe Verster would submit a year planning for your approval?   Would you be the person that would approve that sort of year planning?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: He will bring it to me, his year planning and then I will do a presentation to my leaders, and they will give a principled approval, but then each operation plan must be approved separately.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now, I don't know if you would recall, would you recall if he ever presented to you a year planning in terms of which the proposal was that the CCB through covert means must deal internally and externally with the disruption of perceived enemies?  In other words would you be able to recall just as you are sitting there, if he would have presented to you for your approval in the form in which you have said, a year plan in which there was a proposal for the elimination inside and outside of enemies as they were perceived?

LEGAL COUNSEL: Mr Chairman, can you just rephrase the perceived part of the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you see there were enemies that were identified by the CCB as enemies.  I think we have gone through that, whether they were enemies, UDF, ANC, SACP and all those sort of people.  Now what I am asking is if you are able to recall, and you know it is a long time, during your period would you be able as you sit there, recall if Joe Verster in his capacity as Manager of the CCB, if he would have presented to you a memorandum in which the proposal was that the enemies of the State, inside and outside the country must be eliminated by means of covert operations by the CCB, not in support of anyone, just by the CCB?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I can't imagine that in such a plan internal situation or the interior or the country would have been mentioned, but certainly overseas countries would have been.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you categorically saying that there could never have been a plan for such covert operations by the CCB, either submitted to you or eventually approved by you during the time that you were Head of Special Forces?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is what I want to be, I want to be fair to you.  When you say you can't remember it, are you saying it could never have happened or are you saying it could have happened, except that I don't remember?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Goosen, you want to take your next witness?

MR GOOSEN: Yes, please.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, on a point of order, may I enquire as to how you propose to deal with the witnesses?  I am sorry I was a little bit late this morning, due to our flight being delayed.  I don't know if you made, the Chairman, this morning regulated the procedure, but I understood, or I said that I wasn't going to cross-examine this witness, but for the sake of convenience, I think it is properly proper that I should put to the witness a version of General Coetzee, so that at least you could have it on record and be aware of it and I think there are some of my colleagues who might also wish to put some questions to General Joubert.  I would like to know when you propose to do that?

CHAIRPERSON: My apologies, I was here when that undertaking was made by the Deputy Chair and my recollection seems to have been that it would have been proper for you to do what you say you ought to do and I think the appropriate time would be now.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  General Joubert, just to put these statements I am going to present to you, in context, I am going to refer you to your written amnesty application with the undertaking that I am not going to go into any detail, except where it is absolutely necessary.
 On page 9, you described that there was a plan and you gave your evidence this morning regarding this plan on pages 8 and 9.  At the top of page 9 you said I accepted that General Geldenhuys this principle of cooperation between the Special Forces and the South African Police, that he had discussed that with his equal in the South African Police because internal operations were the task of the South African Police.
 I am putting it to you that something like this had never been cleared with General Coetzee and he was never aware of any such plan.  If you want to react to that, you can say.   You've accepted he said he doesn't know, what is your comment?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: The only comment I have Mr Chairman, is because they cooperated and during those circumstances, it was an extension of the emergency regulations.  I have just accepted that he cleared it out with his equal, whether he did that, I don't know.

MR VISSER: Then I want to take you further on in your statement, in your submission where you refer to the incident 4.4 on page 14.   And I wish to refer you specifically to page 17, paragraph 4.4.13.
 You refer here in this paragraph to a conversation which took place as you allege between yourself and General Coetzee.  Do you want to consult with your legal representative?

LEGAL COUNSEL: Mr Chairman, we have indicated initially that the circumstances surrounding these incidents, we wish to avoid today because they are the subjects of amnesty applications, then Mr Visser will have the full opportunity to cross-examine the details of those operations.  In the light of that, I wish to state that my client do not wish to answer these questions at the moment.

MR VISSER: The objection is ill-founded.  I am not cross-examining the witness.  I am placing before the Committee the version of General Coetzee after this particular witness has confirmed the contents of his amnesty application before you this morning.  I can't leave it just like that.  I've got to put it to him.  I am not cross-examining him.  I am being very careful not to divulge any of the facts in his application with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: But does that aspect form part of his testimony, did he testify about that today?  I don't think he did?

MR VISSER: Well, he confirmed the contents of his amnesty application, this is part of it.  All that I want to put to the witness is, I am now directing his attention Mr Chairman, to the paragraph, he can read it, I am not going to say what it is, and I am just going to say General Coetzee is going to deny that.  That is all I am going to say.

CHAIRPERSON: That is okay, that is fair enough.

MR VISSER: General what you are saying in paragraph 4.4.13 and 4.4.16 on the next page as far as you mean by this that General Coetzee had knowledge of any elimination  of persons or had any previous knowledge of elimination of persons, he denies it.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I also want to state it clearly that in my application it is very clear that General Coetzee denied that.

MR VISSER: That is good enough Mr Chairman, thank you, I won't take up more of your time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Adv Visser.  Adv Coetzee, are you ... (intervention)

MR COETZEE: I will wait for the last.