Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

MS TANZER: In the location, yes.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw the one that came to park in front of my vehicle, not in the township.  Look, my house is at the end of the township, so I could not have seen the vehicles in the township.

MS TANZER: Do you know of a structure in Boipatong that was used as a mixed hostel?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am the one who constructed it.

MS TANZER: Is that structure near your home?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It is far away, it is actually nearer to Slovo Park.

MS TANZER: Would you say that the attackers followed a certain route on that night of the 17th of June, or were they randomly attacking different streets in Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Look, I don't know about the different routes, I am at the beginning of the township.  I only saw them on their way out.

CHAIRPERSON: ... the mixed hostel that you referred to, did it have a name?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was just called Boipatong Hostel.

MS TANZER: And my last question is, the attackers that took the route, as you gave evidence, via the robot, not past the nursery but via the robot, back to the hostel, the Kwamadala Hostel that is, were they being accompanied by the police vehicles or were they behind the police vehicles?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yesterday I said the vehicles were stationary and these people were moving.  They were not accompanied by the police, the police vehicle only followed from behind.

MS TANZER: The police vehicles that made their way from Umzimvubu Street up towards the garage, those are the vehicles I'm talking about, were they ahead of the attackers that took that route or were they accompanying the attackers on the route?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, these people had already walked past that spot and the other ones had taken the footpath direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that when you saw the motor vehicles, the police motor vehicles in Umzimvubu Road, the attackers had gone past?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.  See, these vehicles were moving slowly and the people were walking past the vehicles as they were moving slowly.

MS TANZER: So the attackers were ahead of the vehicles, not behing the vehicles?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying, as these people were moving past these vehicles, the vehicles were also moving, but slowly.  They were in a hurry.

MS TANZER: Alright.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MEY: ... that Rooikop, alias - that Greef, alias Rooikop and Mr Tshaka were not involved in the Boipatong massacre.

MR MEY: I don't know the people you are talking about.

MR MEY: ...(inaudible) Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed, yes.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.
	Do you know the name of the deceased person whose corpse was being picked up by the two policemen you have referred to in your evidence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It's a little girl.  I don't want to make a mistake pertaining to the name.  I know the name, I have just forgotten it.  It was a girl of about 12/13 years.  I know her very well, she was a child belonging to my neighbour.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know the parents of the child perhaps?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Very much so, they are neighbours.

MR MAPOMA: Who are they?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Hlube is the surname.

MR MAPOMA: Do they stay in the same street as yours?  Do they stay in the same street ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, it's the sixth house from my house.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

MS PRETORIUS: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson, two questions.
	Mr Baloyi, were you ever asked by anybody to testify during the criminal trial?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I don't remember.

UNKNOWN: And the second question, what was your position in the church in 1992, June?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We have no positions in that church, the Roman Catholic Church.  It is only the Priest who delegates what people should do.

UNKNOWN: Why was it that you were delegated to perform certain tasks in the absence of Father Patrick?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know, God must have planned so, that I be chosed, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Berger wants to find out is that there must many people who belong to the Roman Catholic Church in Boipatong, now what he wants to find out is why did Father Patrick single you out.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am going to answer you as follows;  it is my faith.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

UNKNOWN: Oh.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Maybe it is because of my faith.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) than the other members of the Roman Catholic Church?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I had committed myself many years ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Baloyi, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: It's approximately five to one, we will take the lunch adjournment now and when we come back my colleagues will put one or two questions to you, just to clarify certain matters and thereafter you will be free to return to your seat, okay?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, I sincerely hope that I am now reminding you for the last time that you are still under oath.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've got no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: There's just one aspect.  Do you know how many people were killed in your street?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Four people.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know them?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Can you tell us who they were?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: At Mxena's house, as well as Hlube's, as well as Manyeka, two houses.

ADV SIGODI: Did you render any assistance to those people who were who had died, besides Hlube's house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: ...(no English interpretation)

ADV SIGODI: By way of giving first-aid.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not render first-aid.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: I'm sorry, Chairperson.  Just for the record, Mr Baloyi said that Manyeka there were two and it was interpreted as "two houses", and I think his evidence was "two people".

CHAIRPERSON: Shall I record that?  This is where, at Manyeka?  Manyeka, right.  Thank you, Mr Berger.  Yes, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, just one small aspect.
      Mr Baloyi, you told us that you were not politically affiliated.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR LAX: And you also said at one point there was no trouble between you in the township.  That's how you put it.  You said
"no trouble between us"
Did I understand you correctly?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know what trouble you are referring to.

MR LAX: Well you were being questioned about conflict in the township.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said there may have been problems amongst the youth, but it did not affect the entire township.

MR LAX: And then you were asked about why the IFP people had left the township, or were afraid to come into the township and you said
"They were afraid to come in because they had tried to kill people."

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did say so, but the problems or rather the conflict was between certain individuals, not the entire township.

MR LAX: You were then asked to explain that and your answer was
"Yes, we were attacked and killed as ANC members"
Those were the words that were translated and that you used.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.  As we were attacked by these people they would kill that, the residents are Boipatong are all ANC people, but that was not the actual reflection of the situation.