Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

ANDILE SHICEKA: Mr Chairperson, I was instructed to go and attack white people.  As to the things that you are mentioning I don't know but what I know is that I will attack white people anywhere I can find them meeting.  The question as to whether they were supporting apartheid or not wasn't relevant.

ADV PRIOR: So for all intent and purposes they could have been opposed to the policies of the government, that that wasn't an issue with you because you were acting on orders.  Is that your reply?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I can't answer that question.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Shiceka, had you been to Newcastle before the visit when this incident happened that you testified about?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, I went there before.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you go to reconnoitre, to go and see what the situation was like?

ANDILE SHICEKA: The first time I went to Newcastle was to assist the task force to train a few members of the PAC, I wasn't going there to carry out operations.

ADV POTGIETER: Were you part of the group that came out to reconnoitre in Newcastle in August, about August of 1993 that Mr Molefu was referring to?

ANDILE SHICEKA: There was another group to which I arrived.  When I arrived there were many people already there.   I was only given a task to go and train the members.  I heard about the reconnaissance group but I wasn't part of that group.

ADV POTGIETER: Was that when you met Mr Molefu for the fist time?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: During that visit in '93 in Newcastle?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, in it was in 1993.  The people to whom I've arrived were members of APLA.

ADV POTGIETER: And you said they had nothing to do with any operations, they were just basically training, establishing units?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Not the units.  It was a different unit for PAC.

ADV POTGIETER: Okay.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you coming from when you came specifically ...[End of Tape 1, Side B - no follow-on sound]

ANDILE SHICEKA: I was from Umtata.

CHAIRPERSON: When I look at paragraph 17 of your statement which is the paragraph which was read to you by Mr Prior, perhaps I should read it from the beginning
"When we arrived in town we went to the restaurant but there was too much movement outside the restaurant"
and I want you to listen to the next sentence:
"While looking for another target I heard music noise"
and then you went on to say that you went on to the disco etc., etc.  
	The impression I get from the sentence:
"While looking for another target I heard music noise"
Yes, the impression I get here is as if the disco was not on your menu that night.  It is as if it was not one of the targeted areas or places for a target.  The impression I get is, once you were frustrated at the restaurant you started walking, looking for another target aimlessly around town.  Isn't that what you are saying here?

ANDILE SHICEKA: It's not.  I would like to be given an opportunity to explain myself.  Mr Chairperson, I'm trying to state that after we have seen the people moving up and down near the restaurant I went back to report to my commander who was Tanda in the car.  Tanda realised that we cannot attack the restaurant.
	After that we went straight towards Crazy Beat because it was one of the other places that we have to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] you are moving for the gist of my question.  You have just said, from there you went straight to the Crazy Beat, but that's the point, the sentence doesn't say you went straight to the disco.  The sentence you were looking for another target, you went looking for another target.  It doesn't say, from the restaurant you went straight to the disco.
	What I'm reading to you says from the restaurant you went on looking for another target.

ANDILE SHICEKA: Was that stated by myself, that we were looking for another target?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if it was stated by yourself but I'm just reading from your statement.  Is that what you told your legal representatives, that from the restaurant you went looking for another target or you didn't say that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Mr Chairperson, I clearly explained to my lawyer that we had selected two targets, one was a restaurant and the second one was a disco.  And after discovering that we could not attack the restaurant we went straight to attack the disco.  We didn't go around looking for other targets, we went straight to the disco.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse?

ADV POTGIETER: Can I just ask you, sorry Mr Shiceka, have you seen this document that we've been presented with?  It purports to be a statement by you but it's not signed, it's in English, a typed document.  Have you ever seen this thing?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Um um.

ADV POTGIETER: You haven't seen this?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No, I haven't seen it.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, any re-examination?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just perhaps to help clear up the statement.
	Mr Shiceka, the statement you've just correctly told Advocate Potgieter, that you didn't see this statement.  You also were not asked by me or my colleague, Advocate Ngulwana to sign this statement, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And the reason was that the statement did not correctly reflect your instruction nor did it correctly reflect the other statements, I'm referring to the statements by your co-applicants.  Is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is it also correct that we then agreed that we should hand up the statements unsigned and then correct it during the course of you and your co-applicants giving evidence?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I can't understand.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Firstly, is it correct that the statement, the prepared statement which is not signed does not accurately reflect your instructions?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Arendse, can I just, if you don't mind, assist you because the witness will never understand and this is what is confusing, how you can during his evidence correct a typed statement, it's impossible.  In his version it's impossible.
	I think what we should ask him is, was it agreed that whatever the statement says, when you get into the witness box you'll tell the truth as you know it?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Is it also so Mr Shiceka, - I just want you to confirm it, that the first time we as legal representatives had an opportunity of consulting with the three of you together in one room was yesterday morning?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And it's for the first time during our consultations yesterday morning that we discussed amongst other things, the written statement and the other documents that is before the Committee?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you also recall my colleague Ngalwana saying to you and to the other applicants that we have been required to furnish the Secretariat of this Committee with certain details before this hearing takes place?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Because we haven't had the opportunity to consult together fully and properly, that we would provide these details on what is legally referred to as honour without prejudice basis.  In other words we would try and provide as much detail as we can but that mustn't be held - that those details that we provide won't bind you?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you recall receiving a letter while you were being held, I think you were being held at Brandvlei Prison, is that correct, in Worcester in Cape Town?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: This letter contained a lot of detail about not only the Newcastle attack but also other attacks and that is why these attacks are dealt with in your statement.

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.