Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: It is very painful, because these were the people who were working for their liberation.  However, we, I shot at them so that they would not be able to identify me should the police be investigating the matter and I did not want them to be able to tell to the police the direction we would run too until we were safe.  This is why I shot at them.

ADV LOURENS: When you ...

JUDGE WILSON: You must have been aware of the fact that the police would have been investigating the matter, were you not?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Certainly.

ADV LOURENS: When you had planned now to go to the farm house, to Vlakkeland, did you, was it part of your plan that you would kill people who were possibly standing in your way of obtaining firearms?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: It was not part of our plans to shoot anybody unless somebody would fight us or somebody who is armed, therefore in defence we would, we knew that we would shoot, but it was not part of our plans to shoot at anybody.

ADV LOURENS: Now, you personally, as I understand your evidence, took ammunition from the house, bullets.  Did you take anything else?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I only took the bullets.  These other bullets I hid together with my gun under the tree.

JUDGE WILSON: What about all the other things that were taken from the house?  You told us you were the one who went into the house and searched.  What about all the things that were taken from that house?

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, the question that I put to the applicant was that he personally took ammunition ...

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: ... the other things will be covered by the other applicants.

JUDGE WILSON: I am asking this applicant what he knows about them.  What about the other things that were taken when you were searching the house?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Truly, I did not take anything else personally.  I would remember if I had taken anything else.  I did not take anything else.

ADV LOURENS: Mr ...

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: It was not even my intention to take anything else except arms.

JUDGE WILSON: I ask you again, what happened to the other things that were taken out of the house by these young people who had gone there with you whom you had planned to go to this house with?  What happened to the things they took?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: This is a good question.  They will know.  The people who took them will know what they did with them.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you never told, because you see the evidence led at your trial, which is referred to in the judgement of the Appeal Court, is that things that were stolen included a video recorder, jewellery of considerable value, a large quantity of clothing and R2 220,00 in cash.  Do you say you were not aware of any of these, that any of these things had been stolen, that you were not told they had been stolen from the house?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Sir, please do not make appear like a liar.  This happened very fast and we had to escape.  We all just ran in different directions.  If anybody stole anything from there, they must answer for themselves.  Personally, I did not take anything else except the red box of the bullets that I got from the drawer.  I am sure of this and it is as I say.

JUDGE WILSON: So you are asking us to accept the fact that when you went and searched the house, as you told us in some detail a short time ago, that you led the others in to search the bedrooms and the other cupboards, you did not notice that they were taking things like video recordings, large quantities of clothing, jewellery, money?  You are asking us to believe that are you?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I want the Committee to know that I, as Philemon Kabila Maxam, I did not take anything else except what I am talking about.  I will not come here and swear and deceive the Committee.  Each person went and searched different rooms.  I did not look and see who took what.  Everything happened very quickly and we all ran towards different directions.  I even had to leave the box of bullets behind under the tree and I ran.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Maxam, did you after this operation have an opportunity as a group of people who had gone into the house to rob, obviously, with a view of getting the necessary ammunition, did you have an opportunity to discuss amongst yourselves with regard to what each of you had managed to find in the house?  Did you have that opportunity?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Truly, I last saw my co-accused on the day of the incident.  I met them again at the trial.  We were not able to meet again, because I ran and hid at Nyanga Bush, hiding myself even from them, my co-accused, because those years, it was even difficult to trust your co-accused or the people you worked with.  It, because people would, some people would divulge all when they are in detention, I kept myself from them as well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, in short, your response is that you never had an opportunity to discuss amongst yourselves what had been stolen in the house in question?  You never had that opportunity?  I just need a short response to that question.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I did not have this opportunity.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And my other question is were you in charge of this operation?  Were you, in fact, commanding the operation or directing it?  Were you the person who everybody looked up to with regard to the planning and the execution of the whole operation?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Please repeat your question.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Were you in charge of the operation which involved the intention of stealing arms from the house in question?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you did not after this incident have any interest in making enquiries from the people who you went with to steal the arms, to find out whether the mission had been successful or not, to find out what kind of ammunition or weaponry had been found in the house?  You did not convene a meeting or try and speak to the other people to find out what had, in fact, been stolen?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I did not try to call a meeting, I just tried to find out from the places I was at, even from the community.  I did not think that they would keep this kind of information from me, because the youth was working together.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But if they had that kind of information how would they be able to convey it to you?  How would you know whether the mission was successful or not?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: They would use their own means of letting me know, because there was no one particular strategy or that arrangements for a meeting or a place of meeting, for that matter.  I would, I was working around Mbekweni as a whole.  After this incident, and I had also lost my job, I went to Nyanga Bush, KTC.  I would go home to Mbekweni for ten or five minutes.  Sometimes three months would elapse and I would not have gone home.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Lourens, you may proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be a convenient stage to take a short adjournment.

ADV LOURENS: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: We will resume after 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

ADV LOURENS: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Maxam, before we move on I just want you to, perhaps, explain to the Committee more why you feared being implicated by the two victims in this matter.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: As I have already said before the situation we were under and that I was arrested by the police before and they said that they were going to shoot me.  Those threats made me not to go to the police so that I can be arrested and the situation we were under at the time and the way this incident happened.  These people were shot in this incident.