Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-10

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: Thank you very much Your Grace.  I think the evidence of Brigadier Gqozo is indeed, in our opinion, very crucial for the closure of this matter for report to the State President and I would just like to ask from Advocate Collett whether perhaps she has got any idea of how long this Commission will have to wait, indeed how long this country will have to wait until we hear the evidence of Brigadier Gqozo on the Bisho massacre.  Will it be within the period of the life of this Commission?

ADV COLLETT: Mr Commissioner, as I have mentioned I am not a psychiatrist.  I certainly am not able to comment on how long a psychiatric disorder of this nature is to last.  What I do understand from my consultations with Doctor Weiss is that  [and I am sure the Commissioner who is a psychologist can support me on this]  an antidepressant normally takes between three and four weeks to begin to work effectively.
 I would then say if one were to base it on that, surely within a month Brigadier Gqozo should be in a better condition than he is presently, receiving the medication that he is and with the psychotherapy that he is scheduled to start, with Doctor Weiss this week.  More than that I am unable to comment.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me again express our appreciation that you have come.  We obviously want to consult amongst ourselves, as I indicated, I mean there is no legal obligation at this stage.  We have not subpoenaed the Brigadier, he was coming voluntarily and we appreciate the courtesy that you have shown the Commission but we would like sort of to look at the implications of this and want to say thank you very much for coming and you are free to stand down.

ADV COLLETT: Your Grace, might I just comment before I do stand down that certainly during my consultations I never gained the impression that Brigadier Gqozo does not want to co-operate with the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We are very grateful that that is the case.  Thank you.  Order please!  We have to adjust accordingly.  You have heard for yourselves, we are equally concerned but there is not a great deal that you can do about this.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 2 - 10 SEPTEMBER 1996

UNKNOWN: CISKEI GOVERNMENT

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Webb, I really don't know whether you want to see me cross and that is the last thing I want.
 Don't come and disgrace us to the nations because people are going to point a finger at the black nation and their leaders as people who do not want to listen.  We therefore ask that you should behave because this will be a bad reflection to all of us.  I have been saying the way we behave I can give you seven out of ten, sometimes maybe eight and a half out of ten.  Don't spoil this record you have.
 We are all disappointed because we have been expecting some explanation but you have heard that if it is, you may be angry and we are all feeling like that so I think you can vent your anger by running down into the stadium but not here.  This is not the place for that.  Here we just request you to calm down.  Thank you very much.

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: Your Grace I propose that we take the submissions by the persons who served in the Ciskei Government together instead of individually, so that we call Mr Webb, Col Peter, Mr Jacobs, Mr Zantsi and Mr Ngcofe all at the same time and they can perhaps give their testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please do that.  Thank you.  May I again repeat the welcome on behalf of the Commission and thank you gentlemen for being willing to come to help us in trying to understand one of the horrendous events in our very dark past, which we would like to be able to face up to and see how the healing of our nation can happen after the trauma of events such as the ones that we are at present examining together and so if you will, Mr Webb?

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 2 - 10 SEPTEMBER 1996

MICKEY WEBB: Your Grace may I obtain clarity please.  The Honourable Commissioner Finca said that we should have the testimony together.  Am I to understand that I am speaking on behalf of these gentlemen here or is it individual testimony but that we are doing it at the same time?

ALL FIVE WITNESSES SWORN IN: [indistinct]