Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

MR LAX: Now I want you to look - you don't have it in front of you, so I'll read it for you.  Just bear with me one moment.  I want you to look at, or I'll read you page 39(a).  This is a translation of what appears in your application form at page 50.  You say you want to explain the background of what happened and you say that Msome announced a meeting, you say that
"On the Saturday afternoon before the meeting we were informed by the woman that on the way from that meeting ANC supporters would be attacked, because their presence was no longer welcome in the chief's area.  The only people allowed to remain in the area were IFP supporters."
Now this is the important part, the next paragraph.  You say:
"We then held a meeting as ANC supporters, to discuss what we were going to do.  We knew that if all of us did not attend, they were going to kill us because we were a minority in the area.  A decision was taken that some will attend the meeting at the chief's kraal, so that we know what was discussed.  Others would remain behind.  The reason we did this was because we thought if everyone went to the meeting and there were disagreements during the course of the meeting, it would lead to violence and the death of many people."
Now when you gave your evidence you gave us the impression that it was purely by chance that you ended up at the meeting, you denied that you went back to report to anybody about what happened at the meeting.  You were specifically asked about a portion of this document, that says you rushed back to report to the others what was going on, and you emphatically denied that you had done that.  Do you understand my difficultly?  My difficulty  - and I'll be absolutely focused for you, is that on the one hand you say here that it was very planned that you were chosen to go to this meeting to find out what was happening and report back.  On the other hand, in your evidence before us, you have denied that that was the case.  Please explain this to us.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I went to that meeting after I came from my work.  I wasn't chosen by ANC supporters, there were another two members who were ANC supporters, whom I accompanied

MR LAX: But you see, my problem is this, that the very next paragraph goes on to say
"I was one of the three people who were to attend the meeting to listen to what the chief had to say.  The other group would wait for news, for what ever news because we were aware by then, aware that we were going to be attacked."
Now it's very clear, you didn't just happen to come along, you went to a meeting where this was discussed and then the outcome of the meeting is that you were one who was going to attend the meeting.  So it's not as if it happened "sommer" by accident, as you would like us to believe.  And these are your own words as set out in Zulu in the application form and translated into English, and your lawyer has read it to you and you have confirmed this.  Do you understand my difficulty?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes.

MR LAX: Can you explain anything to us about it?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: There were two people who were chosen by ANC supporters to go to the meeting and listen to what the chief had to say.  I joined these people after work when I met them on the street.  When I met these two people, I went with them to the meeting.

MR LAX: I'm going to move on to a different area.  What other operations did you go on at the request or instruction of Master Shange?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: There were no other operations which we did.

MR LAX: So you see you were trained in the forest, you were trained by this man, Master Shange, you were issued with firearms by him.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, he taught us.  It's not like a training, but he taught us how to use firearms.

MR LAX: So you didn't go on any other missions or operations or any other kind of activity involving defending yourself with firearms or weapons given to you by Master Shange, this is the only thing you ever did, is that correct?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: No, we didn't do any attacks.  Master Shange gave us the guns to protect ourselves, whenever we were attacked to attack back.

MR LAX: Now when did he give you the guns to protect yourselves?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: He used to give us the guns whenever we were leaving for, whenever we were in the forest and whenever we were leaving the forest to Umgubaba, we will leave the guns with the people who will stay behind at the forest.

MR LAX: You see, you were given these guns at his house at Umgubaba, that's what you say in your statement.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, he gave us the guns at his house in Umgubaba.  We were going to launch the attack on the following day, which was on Sunday.

MR LAX: But you see you said now that the guns stayed at Nkwale in the forest with your other comrades who were there and that whoever was leaving the place ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat the question?

MR LAX: Sorry.  You see your evidence just now was that the guns stayed at the forest at Nkwale and that whoever left there to go to Umgubaba, left the guns with the comrades that remained behind.  That was your evidence not just two minutes ago.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: We will leave the guns with other comrades, not just leaving the guns, but on this particular day there was no-one at Nkwale, the comrades were all at Umgubaba.  That's where we took the guns.

MR LAX: So if all the comrades left the forest near Nkwale and went to Umgubaba, they would take all the firearms with them?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, if there was no-one in the forest then there will be no guns, but if there were other people in the forest then the guns will remain there so that they protect themselves whenever Inkatha attacks them.

MR LAX: But you see, your evidence and the evidence in these statements is that these guns were given to you by Master, specifically to go on this operation, these are not general guns that you had for your general use, these were guns issued for you to specially go and catch Hamilton Gumede, and that's very clear from Exhibit A.

MR WILLS: With respect, Mr Committee Member, I think there has been evidence that right from the attack on the day of the meeting, the attack that he participated in, when the ANC comrades were in the forest, that there was firing from both sides.  The inference must be that there were at least some guns in the forest at that stage, and this is the evidence of the applicant.

MR LAX: Ja, the firing - with the greatest of respect, the evidence about the firing from both sides was at Master Shange's house when he was part of the IFP group that was attacking that house and they only fled after that to go to the forest.  So that's a different bit of evidence, not relevant to this particular issue.  He did speak of other attacks on them while they were in the forest, but there was no evidence of any gunfire in that regard.

MR WILLS: Sorry, my understanding of the evidence, with respect, my recollection was that by the time the IFP group arrived at Shange's house, they had already fled because they had anticipated the attack and the firing occurred from the forest in the direction of those attacking the house.

MR LAX: No, we have completely different recollections of that.
	Be that as it may, if I can just refer you to the relevant portion of your statement.  If you look at page 4, and I'll read it to you because you don't have it before you:
"The whole ANC group remained in Umgubaba until the funeral of Mr Mtolo two week after his death.  This took place in the Transkei.  Master Shange returned from the funeral and it was decided that a group of seven comrades would return ..."
Now in one of your other statements you then at that point were issued with firearms by master, that's correct isn't it?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, Master gave us guns to go to Mashiwane to attack the bus.