Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-08

MR MARITZ: His evidence, if I understood him correctly was that you came to him and you said to him, "The time has come for you to do what you were trained to do and I need you and I have a job for you" and he remonstrated with you, he wouldn't and you had to persuade him that he has to adhere or concede to your demands - accede to your demands and to fulfil his role as a trained soldier of Inkatha.  Not so?

WITNESS:   I deny that I had to coerce him.  I did not have to beg.  It was an order that I issued that he should act accordingly.  He knew that he was trained specifically for that job and when an order issued for you to discharge that particular duty, you know fully well that you ought

MR MARITZ: /to

MR MARITZ: 1B to do that without being begged.  You don't even need to be coerced, but if the order is issued, he should act accordingly.

MR MARITZ: Yes.  The fact of the matter is that you left him alone for some 5 years and then on a given day you said, "The time has come and the walrus said, you have to come and do your duty now".

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.

MR MARITZ: But I'm using the word "recruiting" and it's easier for me to facilitate my questioning of you, to keep on using the word "recruiting", with this particular meaning that we have now given to it between ourselves.  Do you follow that?

WITNESS:   You can use the word "recruit", but it doesn't tally with me.

MR MARITZ: As you understand that when I use this word, it has the same meaning that we have now decided it will have, for our purpose.  Okay?  Now was Mkhize the only Caprivi trainee who was so recruited as the need arose, or did it happen on other occasions as well?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is true.

MR MARITZ: [Break in recording] ... say and could the panel understand that you employed Caprivi trainees as the need arose?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is true.

MR MARITZ: In other words, can we dispel the concept that here was a force that was continuously acting against foes in a proper type of war situation as an organised army outfit, that that wasn't the case?

WITNESS:   I cannot agree with you.  Maybe that's your interpretation of the situation, but it's not mine.

MR MARITZ: I should rather argue it, if you don't want to assist me, but what is of importance is that over a long timespan, at least a timespan of what is it, from 1986 to

MR MARITZ: /roundabout

MR MARITZ: 1B roundabout 1993 somewhere, 92/93, you recruited members of the Caprivi trainees to perform specific tasks in specific areas which had been identified and you did so as the need arose from time to time.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   Let me just explain to you.  Those Caprivi trainees, as they were divided into different groups and in different offices, according to the training that they had been given, they were working on their own in the respective areas and whenever there was anything or any duty that they couldn't discharge, that's when I came in.  In other words, they were working in groups and they were not known in their respective areas as to what they were doing.  If there was anything that they had to do, they did not specifically had to wait for me and they didn't have to come and report that they had seen such and such a person and whether they were needed to help.  At some stage they had to use their own discretion, so it was not an army situation where they were at a base and waiting for an order to be issued.  That's the situation and that's how they were operating.  Maybe you'll get an insight now.

MR LAX: What's happening is that you are sometimes talking before you switch on the mike.  It's having problems, for example, with the transcribers.  The person in charge of the transcribers just asked me to mention please, if people could switch on the mike, make sure it's on and then talk, because the record is now showing "inaudible" and then suddenly it starts, so if you could just ... (intervention)

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, I think I picked this up over the course of the proceedings.  I think that what happens is that when the interpreter speaks, she cuts me off and
 /once
1B once she puts her microphone off, then I come on line again.  Mr Macadam had the same problem.

MR LAX: Ja, just ... (intervention)

MR MARITZ: For much of what he said we didn't hear anything because of the same problem and if the interpreter would just immediately, after she'd spoken, switch off her machine, that will probably solve the problem ... (intervention)

MR LAX: Ja, I'm just asking ... (intervention)

MR MARITZ: ... because this machine is on all the time.

MR LAX: I hear you.  I'm just asking us all to be a bit careful about that so we can just try and facilitate a proper record.  Thanks.

MR MARITZ: Thank you.   Now, Mr Luthuli, when I read your statement which you made to the ITU, I gained the impression that you were very wary of the South African Armed Forces comprising the Defence Force and the South African Police.  Is that impression correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.

MR MARITZ: As a matter of fact, I think you categorically stated that you didn't trust them at all?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR MARITZ: As a matter of fact you weren't going to tell them what you were doing under any circumstances, because you didn't trust them?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

MR MARITZ: And is it also so, Mr Luthuli, that in much of your activities - and that's the impression that I gain.  If it's the wrong impression, please correct me, but in much of your activities, you were in the invidious position that you had to steer clear of the South African Police and the Defence Force, because in a sense they were your

MR MARITZ: /enemies

MR MARITZ: 1B enemies as well, because they could harm you, they could act against you?

WITNESS:   May I please just explain?  After the 121 meeting, I spoke to M Z Khumalo, as my fellow comrade and I asked him as to how could we allow the Special Branch, the army, to know as to what we were doing as members of the IFP, because we didn't know what they were doing.  We didn't know the operations of the police and later on they would come back to us and use us to do their dirty job and if we refuse, they will tell us that we did some operations at certain places and we will always be under their control or power and he said he understood me, but he said there was nothing that we could do, because they were the powers that be and we were getting the money and arms from them.   That was the day I went there and it was my very last day.  He realised that whatever I was saying, was what I said in Caprivi, that they are asking me as to what the other group wanted, because they had realised - and at times they speak Afrikaans, thinking that we do not understand Afrikaans.  They had to speak English right through and I wasn't going to be in a problem of answering as to who this other group was.  That's where the matter is.

MR MARITZ: Well, the long and the short of it is that you mistrusted the South African Government and their agents, whoever they were.  You didn't want anything to do with them.  That's the long and the short of it.

WITNESS:   I think you can put it in that way, I'll just listen to what you say.

MR MARITZ: Do you agree with that?

WITNESS:   I've already explained.  Don't coerce me to say yes or no, I've already explained.  We have come here to enlighten each other and

MR MARITZ: /I'm

MR MARITZ: 1B I'm trying to enlighten you as to why I did not trust them.  It's because I didn't know their operations and I did not want them to know my operations.  That is what we discussed at the meeting.  Whether I trusted them or not, is no relevance in this matter.  I just didn't want them to know what I was doing, because I didn't know what they were doing.