Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know.  It could be that he is making a 
big mistake, that he is thinking of somebody completely different.

MR NYOKA: What is strange to me is that you concede - Mr 
Nieuwoudt, Mr Roelofse and the late Mr Buzane were included by 
him, including himself, as people who assaulted the deceased, you 
deny that they were involved, it's not because they are not 
applicants?

H B DU PLESSIS: No, I deny that they were involved.

MR NYOKA: Sorry Worship I am reminded it's tea time by the 
evidence leader.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR NYOKA: At one stage there are two periods of detention 
and interrogation - there is the one between the 10th of July to 
the 24th, that is Humansdorp.  And then the second one from the 
24th of July to some time towards the end of July, beginning of 
August, at which of the two stages did he start to cooperate, Mr 
du Plessis?

H B DU PLESSIS: He already started co-operating in 
Humansdorp.

MR NYOKA: And when did you make the offer to recruit him?

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know, I can't remember whether it was 
Humansdorp or Jeffrey's Bay, I can't remember.

MR NYOKA: And can you tell us why he was conveniently 
detained in relatively remote areas like Jeffrey's Bay or 
Humansdorp which were 70 to 60 kilometres from PE where most 
of you are based?

H B DU PLESSIS: In the first instance Your Honour there was a 
principled decision that he should be detained in safe cells and 
that we found at Jeffrey's Bay.  Jeffrey's Bay was qualified to 
keep these people.  We did not have many of those secure cells 
and there was another one at Algoa Park and also Louis Le 
Grange Plein, that was the one thing.
	And there is nothing else that I can think of now why we 
could not detain him there.  We could have kept him in the police 
cells.  It could have been that the other police stations were full. 
 We had problems with Algoa Park because information was 
leaked from there.  I am speculating about that, but that was the 
reason why they were detained there.  We were detaining a lot of 
people at that time.

MR NYOKA: Was it not because also that you do not want to be 
disturbed in assaulting him and torturing him hence a remote area 
like those places?

H B DU PLESSIS: Your Honour Jeffrey's Bay is not a very 
remote place, Humansdorp neither.

CHAIRPERSON: Tortures have known to have taken place in 
huge cities.

MR NYOKA: On the informer theory do you agree with me that 
Mr Danster had nothing to gain by saying that Mr Kondile refused 
to be an informer, despite the beatings?  As he added that he also 
later on co-operated.

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know what Mr Danster's agenda is.

MR NYOKA: I don't hold any brief for him either.  If at first 
you had to assault Mr Kondile and he refused to divulge certain 
information surely you must have been on guard not to trust him?

H B DU PLESSIS: No, no, no, no, let us understand one another 
well.  There are people today in the government who was very 
difficult to cooperate with us and today they are still loyal.  It's 
not to say that if you cooperate right from the beginning you can 
trust a person.  It could also be vice versa.

MR NYOKA: And when he had agreed to be an informer he was 
still in detention, not so?

H B DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR NYOKA: And when you gave him a full briefing on the 
security network he was still in detention?

H B DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR NYOKA: Why was he still in detention if at all he had been 
asked and agreed to be an informer and on top of that he was so 
trusted to be furnished with such vital information, why was he 
still in detention?

H B DU PLESSIS: Well he was kept in detention, that was the 
decision and I can't comment on that now.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this ground has been covered already, 
has it not?

MR NYOKA: Who was this unknown person to whom this note 
was addressed?

H B DU PLESSIS: I can't remember.

MR NYOKA: You did not follow it up?

H B DU PLESSIS: No, I could possibly have followed it up but 
how?

MR NYOKA: If Mr Kondile was still in detention how would he 
have managed to send the message out to this person if he didn't 
even - were able to follow it up?  How was he going to be able to 
let the message go out to him?

H B DU PLESSIS: No I never said that, I could not follow it up, 
I said I did not do it.

MR NYOKA: And this note, what was it, was it a paper or two 
papers or what, this note that you found underneath his blanket?

H B DU PLESSIS: No it was not a long note, it was a short little 
note on which the information was written.  I don't want to 
speculate.  It was a part of a page.  It was written in small 
handwriting.  This was among the other papers he had there.

MR NYOKA: So there were other papers underneath the 
blanket?

H B DU PLESSIS: Yes those were notes he addressed to me.

MR NYOKA: Why did you not confront him about this and say 
Mr Kondile what are you doing to me now?  What are you doing 
to me now?

H B DU PLESSIS: I did not do it.

MR NYOKA: Why not?

H B DU PLESSIS: I told you I did not know what I could expect 
at that stage, I did not know how to handle that and that is why I 
approached a senior officer.

MR NYOKA: At Bloemfontein why was the car not kept at the 
police station?

H B DU PLESSIS: As far as I can remember it was pertinently 
not kept there because Hani at certain stages or at various 
instances he or some of his agents visited Bloemfontein and he 
could have had contact at the police stations.  That's why we 
decided not to keep the vehicle there, and this is what I can 
remember now.  It might not have been the specific reason but 
that is what I remember now.  I can't tell you exactly where the 
vehicle was kept either but it was somewhere in Bloemfontein.

MR NYOKA: You said that your intention was to leave both the 
bodies and the car visible so that the car could be found that Mr 
Kondile was trying to skip the country and the body found on the 
other side of the border of Mozambique not so?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: Do you agree with me that the Barberton area was 
nearest to the Swaziland border rather than the Mozambique 
border?

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know that area.

MR NYOKA: I've got a map if you want to see it.

H B DU PLESSIS: I accept what you say.  I did not decide to 
leave the vehicle there.

MR NYOKA: Do you further agree with me that had you gone 
on with the plan of not burning Mr Kondile the car would have 
been next to Swaziland and the body in Mozambique, there would 
have been no logic for the body and the car to be in such different 
places, do you agree with me?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: And how is it that the vehicle was never found 
despite the fact that it was left in such an area?

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know.

MR NYOKA: And your team was in charge of the operation and 
the task team, why do you have to be persuaded by Mr Dirk 
Coetzee to change your plans of leaving the body on the other 
side of the border?

H B DU PLESSIS: Ag Your Honour I don't want to speculate 
about that.  This was a discussion which took place between him 
and van Rensburg and I just abide by that.

MR NYOKA: I put it to you that you knew all along how you 
were going to kill Mr Kondile.  That you were going to supply 
him with knockout drops or sleeping mixture, kill him and burn 
him.  You are ascribing to him because he came forward publicly 
to the world in 1989, out of bitterness you are ascribing that to 
him, any comment?

H B DU PLESSIS: I planned, I was part of the plan to kill this 
person but definitely not with the so-called knockout drops, or to 
burn him.  I did not have any knowledge of that.

MR NYOKA: The place that was selected for the killing was a 
remote one so that it could not be seen, you also could not be 
seen, not so?

H B DU PLESSIS: Yes that's correct.

MR NYOKA: What steps did you take to ensure that you were 
not seen?