Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was he an active member of the IFP?

UNKNOWN: According to my observation I think he was a member of Inkatha and he was prominent.  And I don't know how to put it.  I think this whole thing was some sort of excitement.  I don't know whether he knew the significance of being a member of Inkatha.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You have just said that ... did he hold any
5A - 11.2	office?/...
JUDGE NGOEPE	171	MRS E GUMEDE
office?  Was he a chairman or secretary or something?

UNKNOWN: He was not educated and as a result he couldn't hold any particular position.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a leader of his people in Inkatha?

UNKNOWN: According to my own observation I think I could say that he was a leader but I don't know what being a leader means.  Maybe if you could specify.

CHAIRPERSON: He was someone to whom others came for advice and people followed his advice.

UNKNOWN: Yes, people used to come to my place and ask for help and also with regard to their cases or their matters or whatever conflict there existed within the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Has the question of reconciliation been explained to her?  I think earlier on you've told us but would you not want to put any questions to her in that regard?

MS THABETHE: I basically explained how the Amnesty Committee works, in general basically.  I didn't get into details.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I have heard.  May I say something with regard to this Commission?  I do hear him apologising and saying that he wanted to be granted amnesty.  I am not the only one.  His brother is also present and I want to say that this amnesty, I personally as the widow of Mr Gumede, I am under the Chief, I cannot come here and say that you may be granted amnesty, because I fall under the Chief and therefore cannot represent myself and I have children who are not going to school now because of the shortage of funds and my husband did not have any relatives.  Now I do not know as to what should happen.  And I do understand that he wants to go and maintain his kids because his brothers were
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ADV DE JAGER	172	MRS E GUMEDE
also killed.

ADV DE JAGER: Mrs Gumede,  could I ask the members of the Rehabilitation and Reconciliation Commission, there is one of them sitting next to you, could you kindly give a full statement to them to explain what your financial position is and what's the position of your children so that they could report back to the Commission in order to see whether anything could be done to assist you.

UNKNOWN: I will explain that they are not attending school.  I don't have a place of abode and I can't keep head above water.  My house was burnt down.  And where I am working I only get R200 per month and my busfare is R70.99 per month and I only have R100 to take home and I cannot maintain my children on that amount.   (BACKGROUND NOISE)

SISI KHAMPEPE: We shall request you to please behave yourselves because this is not a joke and we cannot laugh.  Can we please behave ourselves accordingly.

CHAIRPERSON: She has already been told the person sitting next to her represents a committee.  If she thinks that she requires assistance from that committee she must give details and whatever particulars are required to the members of that committee.  Does she understand that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  She can go down.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, my submissions will be very brief.  I submit, with respect that the evidence before the honourable Commission is such that ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 5b) ... The applicant has satisfied the requirements for the granting of amnesty in respect of the deed that he committed.  I submit that he has fully disclosed his involvement.  He has answered questions honestly and without 5B - 11.2	any/...
MR WILLS	173	ADDRESS
any attempt whatsoever to evade his own responsibility for these actions.  At no stage has he attempted to blame anybody else and he has been truthful as regards the fact that this was not committed on the orders of any other person, but that it was his own decision. 
	In addition, Mr Chairperson, I am of the view that the evidence before the Committee is such that it is clear that this incident arose directly out of the political conflict that has ravaged this part of the country and it is my respectful submission that had this conflict not existed then this incident clearly would not have taken place. 
	That is the extent of my submissions, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Suppose he was misinformed about the involvement of the deceased, and that the deceased was not at all involved in the killings of his brothers, could that have any bearing on his own motivation?

MR WILLS: Motivation is, with respect, obviously something which is a personal appreciation.  If he had been misinformed, with respect, his motivation would have still been political but it would have been made on a misinformed basis.  I think, however, that there is evidence before the Commission which indicates that it is improbable that he was misinformed, and to that extent I cite the evidence of the deceased's widow who indicated that her husband was a prominent Inkatha person.  I also ask the Commission to take note of the fact that in the area at the time, particularly in rural areas in northern KwaZulu/Natal, it was in fact very difficult to organise for the ANC and that prominent members of the Inkatha Freedom Party did in fact restrict the political freedom of association of the ANC in those
5A - 11.2	areas/...
MR WILLS	174	ADDRESS
areas.

ADV DE JAGER: Isn't the impression created that he acted to revenge the death of his two brothers and his family?

MR WILLS: That was a question I thought myself for some time.  Clearly there is that element where unfortunately his brothers were killed in the violence.  However, there are two reason why I think that it was not simply a personal revenge.
	The first is that the very nature of the conflict in the area had in fact divided the Mzimela clan along political lines.  And had it not been this political division, his brothers would not have been killed in the first instance.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Wills, I am inclined to agree with you that we should differentiate between personal revenge and perhaps political motivated revenge, is that the point you are trying to make?

MR WILLS: I don't think it is as simple as revenge.  I cannot deny that there is an element of revenge in the attack - in the applicant's motivation - but clearly it goes further than that.
	The second point that I wanted to make is that he has  testified to the Commission that he was involved in organising for the ANC generally and that the deceased in this matter he saw as a major obstacle towards this organisation.  With those two factors I submit with respect that there was more to his actions than simply revenge, be it personal or political.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Maybe in all fairness to your submissions, Mr Wills, with regard to the question whether or not it was not just purely for the purpose of revenge, I think your
5B - 11.2	question/...
MR WILLS	175	ADDRESS
question was asked of him what he had hoped to achieve, and I think his answer shows that he had a greater objective than just a personal revenge, isn't it?

MR WILLS: That is correct, I recall that now. Thank you for that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And also I think twice, on my counting, he had said, rightly or wrongly, I don't know whether that is true, but twice on my counting he has said that the deceased had killed many comrades.  I don't know whether the accusation is true, but the applicant on two occasions has said that the deceased had killed many comrades.

MR WILLS: Yes, that is indeed the applicant's belief.

CHAIRPERSON: So you concede that there was an element of revenge in this matter, but it was against a background of political conflict.