Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

MS TANZER: On page 13 you signed a second Form 1, do you verify that this is your signature?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not my signature, I do not quite know this one very well.

MS TANZER: You did not sign this Form 1?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know where this comes from.

MS TANZER: Now on page 15 of the bundle you applied for indemnity, is that your signature?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not my signature, that is not how I sign.

MS TANZER: So you are telling me that the only signature that is your signature in this bundle is on page 6?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, this is my signature.

MR LAX: What about the one on page 17 Ms Tanzer?

MS TANZER: This letter that was addressed on page 17, is this your signature?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that's not my signature.

MS TANZER: Now there is also on page 8 and unsigned affidavit which deposes under oath to certain information which obviously you have not signed because it is unsigned.  Have you ever seen or read this affidavit prior to my reading it to you in the prison a few days ago?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, ...(inaudible)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot speak louder than this.

MS TANZER: Had you ever seen this affidavit before?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes this is the statement that I gave to my legal representative if I still remember very well.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.  This is the affidavit at pages 8, 9 and 10?

MS TANZER: Yes, this is the affidavit I'm referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Nosenga, what is your standard of education?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I went as far as Standard 1.

CHAIRPERSON: Standard 1?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MS TANZER: Let me clarify, I read this affidavit to you last week in the prison.  Had you seen this affidavit before I read it to you, has anybody presented this affidavit to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not quite understand, would you please repeat?

INTERPRETER: May I just find out, is his machine tuned into the correct language?  Can the technicians check that please?  Mr Nosenga, do you hear Zulu in your earphones?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Are you referring to my statement?

INTERPRETER: Just hold on, I'm going to check for you.

MR LAX: Peter, just so that we can announce this, what languages - yes?  4 is Sotho and English is 2?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I speak Zulu.

MS TANZER: Alright, I think he has been now placed on the correct channel.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear now Mr Nosenga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can hear you now.

MS TANZER: Alright, this affidavit on page 8, I read to you last week in the prison.  Before that, had you ever seen this affidavit, has anybody read this affidavit to you at any time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct, many people did come, I cannot know which statement it is, so many people came to me in prison.

MS TANZER: No, my question is did anybody come back to read the statement that they took from you and read it to you to ask you if it was correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, they did not come back to read them to me since they took the statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Just wait a minute.  You ask him whether he had seen the statement which occurs, repeated the question, which occurs at pages 8, 9 and 10, whether he had seen the statement.  What was his answer there initially?  Didn't he say that this is the statement that he made to his attorney?

MS TANZER: As I understand he wasn't hearing the correct language, it was on the wrong channel number, now he's understanding it.

CHAIRPERSON: Forget about whether he understood or not but I want to know what was his answer to that?

MS TANZER: As I heard his initial answer was yes but I think he did misunderstand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we can clarify that with him, I want to know what was his answer to that?  Yes very well.

MS TANZER: Has this affidavit ever been read to you before after the information was taken from you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I do not remember.  May somebody please read it to me because I do not remember very well.

MS TANZER: If I may Mr Commissioner, may I read the affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Have you gone through the statement with Mr Nosenga.

MS TANZER: Mr Ngcobo, I have gone through the statement at the prison and he indicated that he had never seen the statement before.  I had read the statement and I'd read the signed statement that he had signed and we have gone through it before, yes.  Last week.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, you're being asked about the statement which is - just show him the statement.  Do you see that document?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not educated.  May she please read it to me?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go through the document with your attorney?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, my attorney came, I do not understand, I am requesting that she reads it to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you at Sun City?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I am in Leeuhof, Vereeniging Prison.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said you were at Sun City?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Before I came here I was indeed in Sun City.

MS TANZER: If I may clarify, he was just transferred for purposes of this hearing on Friday, this last Friday to Leeuhof.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he not in prison?

MS TANZER: He was in prison at Sun City until Friday and on Friday he was transferred to Leeuhof.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS TANZER: Does the Commissioner require me to read this statement to him?  Alright.
"I, the undersigned, Andries Nosenga, do hereby make oath and say that
	(i) I am 23 years old, am presently serving a 16 year prison sentence for murder at the Maximum B Prison in Leeuhof.  I was convicted in February 1995.  I have a Standard 1 education.
	(ii)  I resided at 671 Newman Road in Everton until 1990 when I left the township and went to live in the kwaMadala Hostel in Sebokeng.  There I joined the Inkatha Freedom Party, the IFP.  Themba Khosa was the chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal Triangle.  The IFP used KwaMadala Hostel as a base from which they would launch attacks on residents of the township.  
	(iii)  I was part of a group from the hostel that went on the rampage in Boipatong in June 1992.  Before we left the township we performed various rituals.  Just before we were about to leave, Sergeant Peens of the SAP came and gave Katisi Victor Kezwa some money.  Themba Khosa also took guns from Peens.  
	(iv)  When we got out of the hostel onto the road we were picked up by a police casspir driven by a white man whose name I don't know.  In the Hippo there was Chaka of the security branch, a white policeman known to me as Rooikop who had red hair, Peens and our driver.  There were fourteen or fifteen IFP members inside the Hippo.  Others were walking alongside.  Those that I remember who were in the Hippo were Gatchene, who had ordered us to get into the Hippo, Rubin Themba, Blackie, Makuka and Dondo.
	(v) ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just want to say that I don't know this statement, the statement that says I was sentenced to sixteen years.

MS TANZER: This statement has never been read to you before I read it to you last week in Sun City, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you now recognise this statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I understand the statement which she is reading now.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that this is not your statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know anything about the sixteen years and Themba Khosa being chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: Alright, can we then go to the statement on page 18?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let me understand this, are you saying that you now recognise this statement as a whole?