Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

THELE NATHANIEL MOEMA: Two things.  In the course of the proceedings I was scribbling some notes but I decided probably to shelve the notes and just speak to impress upon the honourable Judge, Chairperson and every member of the proceedings how one feels about the case itself.  And in the course of the
evidence given by Dirk Coetzee, he did mention the fact
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MR MPSHE	312	T M MOEMA
that Isaac Moema, my brother, was somebody who was very intelligent, very quiet, non-smoking person, non-drinking person.  And what happened on the basis of that observation, on the basis that probably at the time of his capture and taken to Vlakplaas he did not fit within the mode of their culture and therefore he deserved to die, to be killed.  I feel strongly about it.  My mother is not here today, my father is (indistinct).  When we left this morning from home she said, she cannot stand the pain of listening to the proceedings about how gruesome a death her son died.  So she said go and listen and reflect on what the proceedings are and express her deepest I don't know what, but very, very painful for her and now she is waiting at home, she does not know what is happening, she expects us to get back to her and tell her something.  I am not quite sure when I get back home what is it that I will tell her to ensure that - to find solace in whatever I am going to tell her.  But if being intelligent, being quiet is a criteria for one to die then it really brings to light the kind of anarchy that reigned at the time at Vlakplaas.  It caused for me to begin really questioning why is it that I have to explain something that is so obvious and the facts are there for everyone to see. 
	In 1991 I think, at the time of the Harms Commission, if I am not mistaken, 1991, I am sure, yes, I was called in to give evidence at the Harms Commission, and I went through this, I am going through this again.  My mother wasn't there, I was in London, she was here, Dirk was in London, he couldn't give evidence to the Harms Commission because of his conditions of being in exile, I was in exile, I was called in to give evidence, I did give evidence.  But what
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MR MPSHE	313	T M MOEMA
was clear was the ineptitude, the obvious lack of sensitivity of the pain that one was going through, listening to what was going on and clearly from the word go the Harms Commission was a farce, and I am not trying to construe that the Truth Commission is a farce.  But one would expect much more from the proceedings that are going on here.  My mother would like to know where her son is, why was it that he had to die.  If they felt he was a threat to the State, there was recourse to the legal proceedings, the criminal justice was available if he was a criminal, or if there was any case against him.  If it was just felt that he was a threat to the State at the time, a charge should have been laid against him and he would have gone through the normal court proceedings and be sentenced like many others that got sentenced and went to Robben Island and many other prisons that we have in the country.  So that by saying this one is not - I am not so much here to protest, to send any protestation against the applicants in the amnesty, that is not what I am here for. I am here to express the deepest - Your Honour, I left the country because of the pain I'd gone through.  I've lived in exile, I've lived under very harsh conditions, but this is one of the worst moments for me to be sitting here to try to say how the family feels about what has happened and ... (witness distressed) ... can I round off by asking two questions and hopefully I will be able to let my mother who is at home probably sleep in peace.  Just two questions.  Can somebody go to her and say I have committed the murder, I am sorry.  The second one is, can somebody take us or take her to say this is where your son is, this is where his last remains are, if there are any remains that are still available for one to see.   I am not
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MR MPSHE	314	T M MOEMA
in a position to proceed.  I've got a whole list of questions that I wanted to ask to satisfy myself, but I don't think I should proceed.  And I would like to thank you all.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We do not have before us the kind of information that would give answers to your question.  We are still open to evidence that would throw light on who it was precisely that killed your brother.  We have heard the evidence of Mr Dirk Coetzee about who desired the death of your brother.  Precisely where he was killed, we have nobody here present who can tell us.  And it unfortunately may remain one of the secrets that have been buried with your brother.  But there is the Reparations Committee.  It is possible that they may be able to go and visit your mother and perhaps give counselling to her if it can be of any assistance to her.  At present I can think of nothing else that can be done to assist your family.
	Mr Mpshe, is there anything else that can be done in this regard?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, what stands to be done is that I  have to get in contact with the HRV Committee, they are the people who can do something in this regard, and I will see to it that it is done.

CHAIRPERSON: More particularly if it is at all possible for people who do counselling to go there and talk to the family and be of assistance, if they can.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is possible, it can be done.

THELE NATHANIEL MOEMA: A bit of information.  I have submitted, and that's something that was lacking, mention was made of the presence of Mr Chris Mnisi when he left with Captain Vermeulen.  I have made a submission of the affidavit that
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MR MPSHE	315	T M MOEMA
Mnisi made, but the other wing of the Truth Commission, probably it would come handy to the proceedings exactly what he says in the affidavit.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, you may also enquire whether Mr Chris Mnisi can be traced, if he is still in the land of the living.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will do so, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, then that rounds up the day's work and perhaps more appropriately, the week's work.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you gentlemen for being of such assistance.  You've taken great pains in compiling the documentation that makes the task of this Commission that much easier.
	Let us finalise one or two things as to the written submissions that my Committee would like from counsel. When can that be done?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, as indicated initially, I thought that two weeks would be enough for me to prepare Mr Coetzee's written submissions and in those submissions I would include Mr Chikalanga's matter.  I indicated the 7th February.  I could be in a position to submit my Heads at that stage.  I would possibly maybe just ask until that Monday.  It would give me an extra weekend, it would give me three weekends basically, so if I could then submit my heads by the 10th February.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, I will not be in a position to submit Heads by the 10th.  I would say at the earliest on the 14th February, which is the next Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Since counsel for Nofomela is given until the 14th, let that be the date by which Mr Jansen you may also do so.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I will then do so and I
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will serve on my learned friend and ensure that all the members have copies and I will ensure that Mr Mpshe has enough copies also to forward to the other interested parties that may want to have a look at them.
	Mr Chairman, then just also to conclude.  We still owe the Committee some answers in relation to Mr Chikalanga's application.  I have arranged to see Mr Chikalanga over the weekend.  I will ensure that those answers reach you first thing within the course of next week.