Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-02

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Sergeant-Major, if you would have a look at the bundle in front of you and particularly at page 37 and 38, do you confirm that that is your application for amnesty?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I confirm, Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: When you completed this application form, were you assisted by anyone or did you complete it on your own?

UNKNOWN: I completed it on my own Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: You've heard the evidence of Gen Nyanda and Gen Shoke.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that evidence in so far as it relates to you, or do you have anything you wish to add to that evidence?  We'll come to your specific involvement later.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I confirm Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: Now as for as the landmine campaign is concerned, Kletshwayo, how did it come that you were involved in that campaign?

UNKNOWN: I was involved through the Chief of Operation, then the Chief of Operation, he was the one who was directly linked to me.

MR BERGER: Is that Viva that we've been speaking of?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were part of a unit that operated under the command of Kletshwayo, the command structure of Kletshwayo, you were part of the unit that operated in South Africa, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: How many people in your unit?

UNKNOWN: In my unit it was myself and my brother.

MR BERGER: Your brother's name?

UNKNOWN: My brother's name is Ndumiso Mkhonto, he is deceased now he has passed away in 1989.

MR BERGER: Can you recall the operations that you were involved in under the command of Kletshwayo?

UNKNOWN: Yes I recall, Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: Alright.  How many operations do you recall?

UNKNOWN: I recall four, Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: Alright.  Can we go through them please?  The first one?

UNKNOWN: The first one is the landmine case, Corporal in a horse and the other one which ...(indistinct) those people who were mentioned behind.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon?  The first one was the corporal who was riding on a horse?

UNKNOWN: On a horse.

MR BERGER: Okay.  And the second one?

UNKNOWN: The second one, the five people killed, but it mentioned four there.

MR BERGER: You're talking about five people killed.

UNKNOWN: Yes and the casspir detonated a mine.

MR BERGER: Okay.  That's three incidents.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the fourth one?

UNKNOWN: Okay, I think they are all in all there, Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: You're saying there are three incidents.  Alright, let's go back.  Now the corporal who was riding a horse.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: Where was that incident?

UNKNOWN: Okay that incident was next to Josefsdal, Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: The five people, you said somewhere else it was mentioned that it was four people who were killed.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR BERGER: Okay.  The four or five people who were killed, where was that incident?

UNKNOWN: That incident was not far from the Diepgesit mine, it's about 10 kilometres from the Diepgesit Mine.

MR BERGER: Okay.  And the casspir which detonated a mine, where was that?

UNKNOWN: Okay, the casspir that detonated a mine, it's somewhere at Makutha, next to Mgobothe here in the Eastern Transvaal.

MR BERGER: Was anyone killed, I want to go to the third incident now, the casspir that detonated a mine, was anyone killed in that incident?

UNKNOWN: In the media it was reported that minor injuries, Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: How many people were injured, according to the media report?

UNKNOWN: They didn't specify Mr Chairman.

MR BERGER: Let's then go to the second operation where four or five people were killed.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now that sounds like the incident, you say it was near the Diepgesit mine and that sounds like the incident that's been spoken about this morning.  Ms Mtanga has been speaking about that incident.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR BERGER: Alright.  I want you to tell the Committee what road this was where you planted the mine and why you chose that position.

UNKNOWN: Okay, Mr Chairman, after the reconnaissance we found that that place was only used by the military and the police and there were no inhabitants around that area.  The only people who were using that road, it was used for logistical supply for the people who were in the border, who are working around the fence of Swaziland and South Africa.  It was used only by the military to supply those people who were there in the what you call.

MR BERGER: People who are where?

UNKNOWN: Who are working in the border, the soldiers, then it was taken into consideration that there were no civilians who are using those roads.  We have stayed there for three days reconnoitring that place.  After we find that there was no car in the whole three days that has passed through that road, then we decided that only a military vehicle and a helicopter, then the helicopter, they were having another observation post about five kilos from us, then they used to pass there, then the cars using that road, to convey either personnel to the border or logistical support.

MR BERGER: Ms Mtanga said that this road where the landmine was planted was near a residential area.  What is your comment on that?

UNKNOWN: The residence which is nearest there is about ten to fifteen kilos away from there.

MR BERGER: And in the three days that you kept that road under observation, did you see any civilian traffic on that road?

UNKNOWN: There was no civilian traffic, there was no car which was passing that road for the whole three days, only on the main road and when they come to that, it was used only for military.

MR BERGER: So is it your evidence that the road on which you planted the landmine, was a road that led off the main road?

UNKNOWN: Ja, it led off from the main road.

MR BERGER: Towards the border area?

UNKNOWN: Ja, towards the border area and also it don't reach the fence because it's mountainous, then it goes nearer the mountains then it gets finished, then they used to go up to that area, up to about 2 kilometres, then after 2 kilometres, then there's no other roads, it ends there, it cul-de-sacs, then you can't go far, then the people they will come from the border to fetch their logistical supply from  there.

MR BERGER: Then coming to the first operation, the corporal on the horse, you said that was near Josefsdal.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR BERGER: What reconnaissance did you do there and why did you decide to plant a mine there?

UNKNOWN: Then we decided to plant a landmine there because also it was used only by military and the way a family that didn't have a car, next to the border fence, then that family didn't have a car, then we ...(indistinct) which was moving in that road, it was not used by any car to those families, those people who have given that person the horse, they didn't have a car, they have only some horses to go to the nearest town or to the shops and it's far from inhabitants, or it's nearly the same with the kilometres to where a location or a township.

MR BERGER: Nearly the same as what?

UNKNOWN: Nearly the same as the one of those five people.

MR BERGER: The Diepgesit mine.

UNKNOWN: Yes and it's in the same area.  The Diepgesit and the Josefsdal, those are same area, it's one and the same area.

MR BERGER: How long did you keep the Josefsdal area, where the Corporal on the horse was killed, how long did you keep that area under observation, under surveillance?

UNKNOWN: Okay.  We have repeated the reconnaissance, we have come, maybe we stay for two to three days then we go back, then we go for the final reconnaissance.  When they were exchanging cars from the border, we go again and check that they are still to allocate their place where they will have commands, to command with the main commands and also to those who are in the border post.