Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

MS POSWA: And then you said that you arrested him because he was behaving strangely?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.  During our pursuit of him he used anti-pursuant measures that led us to believe that he had observed us.

MS POSWA: But as I just put to you he was here undercover.  There was no way he would just be acting like a normal person.  He had to be on his guard all the time, he had to be certain that he's not being followed and whether or not you in particular were following him or the car behind him or the car next to him, was not really the issue.  He had to ensure that whoever was behind him would not in any way tail him, he would have to perform those anti-pursuit manoeuvres anyway whether or not he was certain that people were behind him.  Or don't you accept that?  You accept that?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I accept that Chairperson.

MS POSWA: Then why do you think then that - why did you then continue to arrest him because he was acting normally.  This was a man underground who had to be on his guard all the time and whether or not it was your car, he was performing the anti-pursuit manoeuvres again, you wouldn't have known?  I mean he was not going to drive along like every other normal citizen, he had to be on his guard all the time so whether he shook you off or not will have been of no consequence.  What I'm trying to say to you, Mr du Preez, is that I just do not believe that that was the reason he was arrested?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that was the reason I believed that he had realised we were following him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he start speeding off before you had taken any action against him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes Chairperson, he started driving quickly and slowly and these are some of the tactics used.

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't trying to escape from you he was just using the normal evasive tactics you would expect of someone who was underground?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you suddenly say "I agree", why if he was behaving as you would have expected him driving along using more and more evasive tacts why did you decide to arrest him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, if you following such a person then you immediately realise if it is just the normal tactics r if this is tactics to get away from someone.  I was of the opinion that he was trying to get away from us.

MR LAX: There's been no evidence whatsoever that he was trying to escape from you, that you were actually chasing him, none whatsoever so far?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, it was not a pursuit.

MR LAX: I've just got another aspect while we're on this issue that I'd like you to follow up.  Your instructions were to go to that house and to observe that house, to observe who entered and who left.  Those were actually your instructions that's what you are there for, is that right?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So why did you decide to follow Nyanda, what made you decide to follow him?  He came, he left, others came, they left, isn't that so?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this was left to my own discretion and I knew that we would shortly be arresting them.

MR LAX: How did you know you were going to arrest them soon?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I had been discussed that we would arrest.

MR LAX: You see, I have a great problem with what you've just told us that it was discussed that you were going to arrest them soon because Botha told us that he had no expectation whatsoever that any arrests were imminent and he was in control of this operation.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this is not how I understood it.

MR LAX: In fact he told us - sorry, finish your answer, I'm cutting you short.  Finish your answer please?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: What I understood from the moment we started placing these houses under observation was that arrests would follow.  When was not discussed, a time was not determined when we would do it.

MR LAX: It was spoken about in such a manner that you thought it was imminent?  That's just been your evidence?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I believed it to be like that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well again ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say arrests had been discussed?

MR LAX: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: A moment ago you said in your evidence that we knew he would be arrested soon as the question of arrests had been discussed.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We didn't speak about the matter but that's how a group would be arrested.

MR LAX: You see, that doesn't accord with Botha's evidence at all or Steyn's evidence for that matter or even Wasserman's evidence for that matter.  The general picture that we have been given so far is that no arrests were imminent, that in fact Botha didn't even think it necessary to tell you about General van der Merwe's instructions because he had no expectation whatsoever that any arrests might be imminent.  That's why he didn't even think it important to even tell you that bit yet?  I might add in fairness that in addition to that he also didn't have time to tell you either but he wasn't that worried about it because in his testimony he said it was something that wasn't in his mind even at that stage?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson the fact that we - according to me it was general knowledge that at some stage they would be arrested.

MR LAX: Now one last thing on this aspect if I may, and that is you said you would have arrested them anyway even if you'd had orders not to arrest them, did I understand you correctly there?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Under these circumstances an important person like Nyanda, if such a person had gotten away from us then this whole operation would be endangered according to me.

MR LAX: So you're telling us that if you'd got orders not to arrest him and this is very, very important as far as I'm concerned, if you'd got orders not to arrest him and you might not have been told the basis for such an order you would still have arrested him regardless of your orders?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot say that Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well of course you wouldn't have, I mean if Botha told you under no circumstances arrest this man, you would never have arrested him surely?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well just explain why you said earlier in your evidence that you would have arrested him regardless of whether you had orders not to arrest him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I said that regarding the circumstances.  In the circumstances if specific orders had been given not to do it then I believe we would not have done such a close pursuit or we would not have pressured so much for a pursuit.

MR LAX: Please continue Ms Poswa?

MS POSWA: Thank you.
	I'd just like to clarify something.  So now you are now saying that you actually pursued him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We did pursue him.

MS POSWA: Now let's go back to the elimination, the discussion on the elimination.  What were your views when Botha expressed this and told you and explained everything to you about the possible elimination of the need to eliminate Charles Ndaba.  I'd like to know your own political perspective, your perspective from a political point of view.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: My personal or my political convictions?

MS POSWA: Your personal, the way you saw it politically, the way you saw the need to eliminate Charles and Wuso, how did you see it?