Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-17

MR MKHIZE: Initially that was their objective yes, some certain leaders within the ANC were identified as problematic but as the war went on we changed and adopted other strategies which we were not discussed before.

MR MOLOI: Ja, I'm quite aware of that.  You said you then had to intimidate, so to say, the public in order to join the IFP because people in the circumstances you described would necessarily lend support to the winning side between the two warring sides, ANC and IFP, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: You're also aware from the evidence of Mr Luthuli and you were present when he stated that the IFP had in fact a two pronged strategy namely that publicly they would denounce violence and vehemently so, but in secret they would commit acts of violence?

MR MKHIZE: I was present when Mr Luthuli gave evidence in Durban.  Chairperson, it is difficult to state that as policy but what I can say is that is exactly what happened.
	In public one thing was said but at night or behind closed doors another was said because of political reasons.  I therefore support Mr Luthuli in his evidence.

MR MOLOI: Then the one question that arises in my mind is how would the people know then which is the winners side if the IFP would not publicly claim to have committed those atrocities that would move them towards, let's say, the winning side as you call it?

MR MKHIZE: We should not undermine the intelligence of the public, Chairperson.  The community is able to look at a situation and assess although they may not have the power to publicly state or discuss these matters but they do see how things happen.
	If you look at a situation - if the IFP did not use violent means, will there have been a reason for them to take 206 members to train them at Caprivi and train them outside the country and in illegal weapons and moreover hide this fact that they are such persons who had been trained in this way.  Those are the kind of questions that you should question or ask yourself if they really were employing non-violent means, why would they have engaged in such activities given the fact that there were KwaZulu police who could have protected the Chiefs, Indunas, the property and the IFP members.  That could have been done by the KwaZulu police.
	You should ask yourself the question why did they have to train people covertly and train them in such a manner.

MR MOLOI: Thank you.  Just the last aspect actually on the subject you touched.  It is also evidence of Mr Luthuli last week in Durban that there are still members of the Caprivi Group that are moving around in public.

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR MOLOI: How dangerous do you personally consider those people to be to the peace in the country especially in KwaZulu Natal?

MR MKHIZE: I think that the present government should do something about this.  If they are indeed concerned about the safety of the public.  They should be known and we should know where they are and what they are doing.  I say this because wherever they are, they have skills, we don't know when they'd also be manipulated into using their skills and given our economic situation in the country, where there are no jobs and in the face of the taxi violence where hitmen in need or are required.  I think the government should do something about this because I personally perceive it to be something very important.

MR MOLOI: Are you then individually and you collectively as applicants, that know these people, prepared to expose them?

MR MKHIZE: I have said it many times that even at another forum I am prepared to give evidence about these activities if only that evidence will help the community, it would be my contribution for the wrongs that I have committed against the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moloi.  Mr Motata do you have any questions?
ADV. MOTATA: Just a few, Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Mr Mkhize this peaceful attitude which was preached during the day and now coming to you that you were deployed in the South Coast for instance to mobilise people, in other words, winning them towards Inkatha, you were successful in doing that because you even visited schools where you were recruiting the youth.  Is that not correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.
ADV. MOTATA: And you did that as a trained Caprivian?  Would I be right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes that is so.
ADV. MOTATA: You were then subsequently deployed at eSikhawini which is a very big area, isn't it?

MR MKHIZE: Yes that is so.
ADV. MOTATA: Your brief, was it different from the South Coast brief because here you were targeting certain people to eliminate them?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.
ADV. MOTATA: You, personally, when you reflect, don't you think probably you could have done a better job by mobilising people because you were successful in the South Coast?

MR MKHIZE: Chairperson, I could not have done what was contrary to instructions that I had been given.  My training enables me to be capable of mobilising, of convincing and also capable of killing.  Therefore my instructions or the instruction that I received, I'm capable of falling into either of these categories.
	From time to time I will receive instructions from authorities and do as they requested.  If I was asked to mobilise and recruit that is what I would do but if I was told to kill I would also do that because I was also capable of doing it.  
	The instruction that I was given when I was working at South Coast is different from the instruction I received when I was at eSikhawini.
ADV. MOTATA: Are you suggesting to us that when you had these various meetings with the top hierarchy, the discussions merely centred around who to be eliminated and not even strategy - how you could strategise by probably winning people over to join Inkatha Freedom Party?

MR MKHIZE: Let me put it this way.  The situation that we were facing at the time had nothing to do with mobilising, you could not have been able to mobilise because of the political situation at the time.  There was war.  The situation forced us that mobilisation could take place later but prior or the priority was the physical fighting - that was what the political situation looked like.
ADV. MOTATA: Let's just be at eSikhawini.  Let's look at H2, it's a big area as well or would I be right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.
ADV. MOTATA: The objective was that by elimination of the ANC you would wholly have the area as Inkatha Freedom Party?