Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-12-01

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, we want to start.  For the record it is Tuesday, the 1st of December 1998.  This is a continuation of the Thokoza SDU amnesty applications.  The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record and the appearances are the same.
	This morning Mr Sibeko is appearing for the first applicant, which I am told is Bongani Radebe, at page 142 of our bundle.   Is that correct, Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, can you hear me?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, I can hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and give us your full names?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Radebe, you are an applicant in this matter and applying for amnesty, is that correct?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm that you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-A?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the said unit?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: I started in 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: What are you applying for amnesty for, what is the reason for your application for amnesty?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: The reason for me to apply for amnesty is because I used to handle firearms.  They belonged to the street, not to the whole section.  That is why I am asking for amnesty, because I used to have arms unlawfully.

MR SIBEKO: What kind of arms are those?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: AK47.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just explain the difference to us between street firearms and section?  I understand section ones because you got them from the section, street?  Explain that one to us.

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: The firearms belonged to my street which  is called Hlehlango Street.  Those were AK47 rifles, three of them.  They belonged to Hlehlango Street where I used to stay.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute before you go on.
	Did you hold any specific position in respect of that street, Hlehlango Street where you lived?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: No, I never had a position but in my street, it was the nearest place for the comrade who would go and fight.  The meeting place was closer to my street and the comrades wouldn't go back.  But I did not have a position, I just had those firearms because I was the nearest person from the borders further down.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be understanding you correctly if I say that you were nearer to the soldiers than it would be for the soldier to Mosa?  That is for the purposes of keeping arms.

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, I agree, I was the nearest person than the others and even if it's time for them to move from my street to the battlefield.

MR SIBEKO: The understanding that we have is that arms were purchased out of the contributions made by the community, and we refer to those arms as arms of the section or of that community.  What is the difference between the arms that I've just referred to and those that you referred to as your street arms?  Were those arms purchased by the members of your, or the residents of your street?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: All of them belonged to the community.  When the community was purchasing them, each and every street would have volunteers.  Like myself, I was a volunteer and I committed myself to the SDU and these arms were taken and allocated to streets and some people were appointed, people volunteered to control those arms.  That was the situation.

MR SIBEKO: Now what happened to those arms?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Those three firearms, three boys took them but I don't know what happened to those.  I tried to investigate but I did not get any information about the firearms.
	The third firearm, one comrade who was here to testify, who was also arrested, his name is Fanyana Nhlapo took that firearm.

MR SIBEKO: In essence you were left with no firearm thereafter?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incident of violence where attacks were launched between the members of the Self Defence Unit and/or the IFP members?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: No.

MR SIBEKO: In essence your application is for amnesty with respect to unlawful possession of three AK47s, is that correct?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, can we just go back a bit to the way in which things were organised.  Now you lived in Hlehlango Street, that is one of the streets in Lusaka-A section in Thokoza, is that right?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also said to us that you were a member of the Self Defence Unit of Lusaka-A section under the command Mosa Msimango.

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that in addition you had volunteered to do certain things.  Now, can you just tell us what was it that you volunteered to do for the SDU?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: I volunteered to be the SDU.  No-one was appointed to be an SDU, you would bring yourself because of the situation prevailing at the time.  That is why I'm saying I volunteered.  I had given myself to protect my community.

CHAIRPERSON: That is insofar as your joining the SDU was concerned, but in addition to that, more specifically in regard to the arms, what was it that you volunteered to do?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: I volunteered to protect the community.  I was part of my brothers, the others who had come here to testify, and I would also kill if necessary but unfortunately most of the times I was not among them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we'll come back to the question I've introduced just a minute ago, but let's carry on with this point that you have made now.
	You knew that the Self Defence Unit was armed with firearms, in most instances with AK47 assault rifles, is that right?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Would you please repeat that question?

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that the Self Defence Unit, your one in Lusaka-A, was armed mostly with AK47 assault rifles, is that right?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were aware of the fact that those arms are deadly and they can kill, is that right?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And also that these arms would be used against those people that the community was fighting with in Thokoza, is that right?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And can we also accept that you were aware and you accept that through the activities of the SDU people more than likely would have been injured and even killed through the use of, amongst other things, the AK47 rifles but any other weapons that the Self Defence Unit members were armed with?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you associated yourself with the Self Defence Unit, with the conduct of your colleagues, members of the unit and of all the actions that were taken by the unit, is that right?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And your purpose was to assist the Self Defence Unit in whatever they had to do in this fight that you were engaged in, is that right?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I understood you correctly, one of the things that you did do was to take charge and control the weapons that were allocated to Hlehlango Street?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your duty to ensure that those arms are safe firstly?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, I had to ensure that those arms do not fall into the wrong hands that can end up harassing the community.