Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

JOHN RADEBE: From Stanley we went to Abraham Mkhwanazi's place.  He gave me my lumber jacket.  We returned again to Borman Ntjolo, and Samuel Neti.  When we left there, I found  Borman Ntjolo not there, and Elsie Mokoena was not there either.  It was only Hapile Ndumo and Samuel Neti.  When I tried to enquire about the whereabouts of Ntjolo he replied to me and say he was running after Hapile without a waste of time as Elsie has run away she would come back with the police.  Then we went again to Small Farm.  When we arrived at Small Farm there was a certain comrade who is called Nkosana.  I went to Nkosana then I gave him the pistol which I had, then he gave me 2.2 calibre.  I found comrades interrogating Hapile Ndumo.  That is where I shot at her with that gun.  After that my self and Abraham Mkhwanazi went to my place.  I took my suitcase.  Before we left Samuel Neti was together with a certain comrade who was not known to me and we learned that he is from Soweto.  Samuel Neti sacrificed that they would take Hapile Ndumo and take her to the ground, then myself and Mokolasi ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just slow down.  There was some rather strange term in the way it way interpreted.  You said Samuel Neti sacrificed that he would stay behind and together with this other comrade drag her to the ground.  Did I understand that correctly?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.  That is what it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we just get clarity, because we do not comprehend that sentence.  What do you mean when you say Samuel Neti said he would sacrifice?

JOHN RADEBE: He volunteered that we should leave and they would drag her to the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: He volunteered that you should leave and they would drag Ndumo, or he volunteered to drag Ndumo, and that you should leave?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary for someone to drag Ndumo?

JOHN RADEBE: I am still asking myself that question again because I don't know why.  I don't know why it was necessary for her to be dragged because she was dead at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you say when Neti said that to you?  Did you ask him to explain himself?

JOHN RADEBE: No I did not want to ask him questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it because you understood what he meant, that you didn't ask him any questions?

JOHN RADEBE: Because I've already done the job, therefore there was nothing which I wanted to know thereafter.  I wanted to kill that person so I did, therefore I left with Abraham Mkhwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you proceed and tell us what happened after he had volunteered to drag her?

JOHN RADEBE: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you proceed and give us more information after Neti had volunteered to drag Ms Ndumo.  What happened thereafter?

JOHN RADEBE: I went to my place and I took my suitcase.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Neti indeed dragging Ms Ndumo?

JOHN RADEBE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JOHN RADEBE: I went to my place and took my suitcase. ...(gap between tapes) Then I went to Zone 2.  Then we returned to Abraham Mkhwanazi's place.   Then he packed his suitcase and then the following morning we left those suitcases at his place.  Then we went to where we left her corpse.  That is where we collected the cartridges.  Then we left.  We took a taxi to Johannesburg.  We went to ANC office.  That is where we met Viva Umkhonto, together with Dakav....  We informed them about what we did.  We informed them what we did about the sell outs, and what we wanted was a hide out or a safe place.  Then we went to Mamelodi in Pretoria.

MS MOLOISANE: Now you've mentioned Nkosana, do you know his surname?

JOHN RADEBE: That is Nkosana Tshabalala.

MS MOLOISANE: Why was it necessary to go to him?

JOHN RADEBE: That was the person who was there within that group at the time when we were together with Hapile.  Unfortunately I saw, fortunately I saw Nkosana then I gave him another gun.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say he was the person who was there?  Was he part of a group, and if so, we have not heard any evidence about a group having been there at any stage.  We only know Ntjolo, Mkhwanazi, Neti and yourself.

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did this group come from?

JOHN RADEBE: That is the time when we left at Neti's place and the people who followed us and those who heard that the informers were caught, then they became a group.  As I knew that Nkosana was a member of the self defence unit at Small Farm, then I took his gun, that is the .22 calibre, and I used that gun.

CHAIRPERSON: I am still a little unclear on this aspect.  You say that you left Neti's place in the company of a small group of persons.

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who had gathered immediately on hearing that you had caught some IFP spies.

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this group comprising comrades, or ordinary members of your community?

JOHN RADEBE: They were members or supporters of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: You do understand when I use the term comrades, don't you?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm going to repeat my question.  Did the group consist of the ordinary members of the community, or did it consist of comrades?

JOHN RADEBE: Some of them were just ordinary members of the community, others were comrades.  I did not have time to identify those who formed that group.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say that Nkosana was a comrade?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he belong to a self defence unit structure?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, in Small Farm.

CHAIRPERSON: And his unit was located at Small Farm?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was your unit located?

JOHN RADEBE: I started at Small Farm.

CHAIRPERSON: So he belonged to the same unit as yourself?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.  Because later I operated in Zone 12.  Then from Zone 12 then I went to Sasol, where I received underground military training.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe my questions are only confined to the incident around the 15th of August 1993, so I do not understand your evidence where it alludes to later.  Around the 15th of August 1993, was your unit located at Small Farm?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you move to the Zone 12 unit as you've just stated?

JOHN RADEBE: I discovered that I had problems in Small Farm.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you move to the Zone 12 unit, that is the question?

JOHN RADEBE: That is in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Which month in 1993, because you've just stated now that when this incident happened your unit was located at Small Farm, and this incident happened on the 15th of August 1993.  So when you say you became a member of the unit that operated at Zone 12 in 1993, can you be specific?

JOHN RADEBE: I'm not able to remember well which month.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before this incident occurred, or after the occurrence of this incident.

JOHN RADEBE: After this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.  Now, after Nkosana had given you the 7.22 pistol you said you went to shoot Hapile.  Briefly explain to this Committee why did you have to, you have already said so, but outline in detail why did you have to shoot her?

JOHN RADEBE: The reason for me to shoot at her was the information we already had before, that together with Elsie Mokoena and others who were not involved in this particular case, we had that information that they were involved with murders which happened in Sebokeng.  That is why it was necessary for me to shoot her, because they would take the information from the township and take it to Kwa Madala Hostel, because those people who were residents of Kwa Madala Hostel, some of them did not even know Sebokeng.  They knew everything about Sebokeng from the people who were staying in the township.  Some of them were Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena.