Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-04-11

LINDANE NTIYANE: On the day of the 12th of April, I think it was on a Sunday, if I still remember very well, we got up in the morning and we heard from members of our community within our neighbourhood, we heard that some people had been attacked the previous night and we also heard from two - or should I say, we heard that two of our community members were attacked and killed on that very same night and that several houses had been torched on the same night.  So we got together and tried to establish what it is that we could do.  We then met with members of the self-defence unit.  There were five members of the self-defence unit within our branch.  	That is where we took a decision to say that now that our members of the community - or members of the ANC for that matter, were always complaining that their members were continuously killed and we as he youth were unable to protect them.  The people who were dying at the time were mostly adults or the elderly.  So we took a decision that - because we knew that these people were dangerous when it came to a war situation, we then made a decision.

MS DE KLERK: Okay, let's go back a bit.  You said that you held a meeting, okay.

LINDANE NTIYANE: Yes.

MS DE KLERK: You said there were five members, can you name the five members that were present at the meeting?

LINDANE NTIYANE: There was Mhle Msomi, the second one was Lucky Sithole.  I cannot recall the other ones very well, I'm even not sure whether the names that I will give are their real names or not.  That would pose a problem because I might be giving you nicknames.  For example, one other such person, even though he was not resident in our area, was Linda.  He was a member of the MK.  He was helping us out as we were facing violence.  I want to believe that that was not his real name.  He had come originally from the Transkei.

MS DE KLERK: You were present at the meeting as well.

LINDANE NTIYANE: Yes, I was present.

MS DE KLERK: Who was in control of this meeting?

LINDANE NTIYANE: I was the Chairperson.

MS DE KLERK: And exactly what was discussed at this meeting?

LINDANE NTIYANE: The prime reason for our meeting was to look at possible things that we could do, possible attempts to be taken in an effort to protect our community, because we were not able to defend ourselves in the event of attack and we decided that the best defence would be for us to attack.  Because if you attack a person who is not anticipating an attack, you then neutralise that person.  So when we took the decision to attack on that day, we were trying to do exactly that, to scare them off so that they should not come to our place and attack as they pleased.

MS DE KLERK: Was the national branch informed of this decision?

LINDANE NTIYANE: No.

MS DE KLERK: What was your reaction to this decision?

LINDANE NTIYANE: I regarded this as an appropriate decision at the time.

MS DE KLERK: And what was the reaction of the others to the decision?

LINDANE NTIYANE: All of us were in agreement about the appropriateness of the decision, nobody objected to it.

MS DE KLERK: So how did your branch then implement this decision?

LINDANE NTIYANE: I would say the situation at the time was a little difficult, communication was quite bad, but I as a Chairperson of the ANC Youth League and head of the SDU, I came to a conclusion that if there is anything that we would have to explain, that can be explained later because we were not in the position to bring together all the committees and inform them about what was happening.  We had to act swiftly.

MS DE KLERK: I asked you how did your branch implement this decision, what did you do to carry out ...(indistinct) decision to attack?

LINDANE NTIYANE: We took the decision in the morning of the same day and the attack was launched on the same day, so as a branch we were not able to bring together all the members belonging to this branch.

MS DE KLERK: Can you tell us about the incident, can you describe to us in detail what occurred that evening?

LINDANE NTIYANE: It was in the evening, it could have been headed for 10 o'clock in the evening, there were two of us, myself as well as Mhle Msomi, and the other members of the Self-Defence Unit remained behind because our area was so vast.  When we went to the area they were standing guard, watching over certain areas to make sure that they are not attacked.  Myself and Mhle then left.  I had a handgrenade in my possession, it was an M75 handgrenade.

MS DE KLERK: Where did you get this handgrenade from?

LINDANE NTIYANE: This we obtained from Linda, who had come from the Transkei, the one who was a member of the MK.

MS DE KLERK: What happened next?

LINDANE NTIYANE: When we went to - when we arrived at Mr Dladla's place, we ascertained that nothing would disturb us in the process.  I removed the pin and hurled it into the house.  I meant for it to go through the window, but it didn't, instead it hit the wall, bounced back and exploded next to us, resulting in us getting injured.  I am the one who got injured the most.  I only heard an explosion and I only gained consciousness in hospital.

MS DE KLERK: How did you personally feel about the attack on the Dladla's home?

LINDANE NTIYANE: At the time the situation was that of a war situation and we had come to conclude that perhaps if we attacked the Dladla household, that would minimise their attack on us.

MS DE KLERK: So did you or did you not believe that it was wrong what you did?

LINDANE NTIYANE: It was wrong.

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry, Ms de Klerk.
	How was the Dladla home identified and decided upon as a target?

LINDANE NTIYANE: We knew the Dladla household and the reason why we targeted this household was not because Mr Dladla was in the forefront in the conflict.  You see, our area was divided into two, there was this ANC base from which I came and there was the IFP base and that is where Mr Dladla resided.  Now the reason why we targeted this one particular house is because it was on the border separating the two bases, so that it was easier and safer to attack the one house on the border, than getting into the thick of the area.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words, Dladla's home was at the border starting the area which was IFP dominated.

LINDANE NTIYANE: Yes, it was on the side of the IFP, but yes, on the border.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Ms de Klerk.

MS DE KLERK: And did you believe that Mr Dladla was a member of the IFP, or a supporter of the IFP?

LINDANE NTIYANE: It was very difficult to vouch to that, but I would say that what criteria we used at the time was on which side of the two strongholds a person resided, and if a person resided on the opposition's side we would conclude that he supported the opposition.  For example there were many people who were killed on our side, but later on it transpired that they were not members of the ANC, they only got killed because they resided in the area that belonged to the ANC.

MS DE KLERK: Did you believe that at the time of the incident, Mr Dladla was an IFP supporter?

LINDANE NTIYANE: I would say we believed that even though he was not a card-carrying member, but he was towing the IFP a line, such as that when these conflicts started and when this division happened in terms of bordering the two areas, those who belonged or those who followed the ANC, fled the IFP stronghold and came to the ANC area and vice versa, but Mr Dladla remained on the other side of the IFP.  That led us into concluding that he was IFP.

MS DE KLERK: So were there any steps taken to confirm that he was or he wasn't an IFP member?

LINDANE NTIYANE: No steps were taken.

MS DE KLERK: You said that you were unconscious after you threw the handgrenade, what happened once you regained consciousness?

LINDANE NTIYANE: May the question please be repeated.