Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you turn to page 76 please.  The very last paragraph, paragraph 24, and it reads in Afrikaans.  Another instance which I remember at the Heidelberg Tavern, which had been attacked, by a certain "Meyer", and the statement in brackets indicates a name, Andile Shiceka, who also wrote a report for my attention.  I cannot recall who went with him or whether any persons were injured or killed.
	I can also recall that a certain "Sipho Polite", indicated in brackets Bulelani Xuma, had been involved in incidents where farms were attacked.  I do not however know exactly at what places.
	Sipho Polite had been the unit Commander, I do not know who accompanied him.  The report which I had received, was written by Sipho Polite.  Mr Gqomfa, I just want you to comment firstly on the statement dealing with the alleged role of Andile Shiceka.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all, as I was in charge of the unit, he was not in the unit.   The people who were in the unit are the people who I have mentioned before this Committee.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And the last question in connection with the statement is whether you have any knowledge or whether you know Sipho Polite who is also, whose real name seems to be Bulelani Xuma?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I know Bulelani Xuma.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was he involved at all in the Heidelberg Tavern matter?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, he was not even there during the incident.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Then Mr Gqomfa, I want you to turn to page 83, which is a statement made by one Bennett Sibaya.   Now, we had been through his statement and his statement indicates that there was some, or that there was another car involved in this operation.  Can you comment on that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is a lie.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Are you sure that there was only this blue Opel Record involved in the attack, both before, during and after the attack?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I am certain.  I would have been very if there was an extra car to help, I know that there was only one car involved.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know Dumisa Ntsebeza?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I just see him on TV, I don't know him much.  I just see him on TV, I don't know much of him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NORMAN ARENDSE: .

INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak slower for the sake of the interpreters.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Gqomfa, when the attack was over, you say the blue car, the Opel vehicle, travelled to Section 3, Guguletu, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Had you already alighted from the vehicle before it got to Guguletu?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I had gotten off the car because I alighted at Site C.

MR PRIOR: So you don't know what happened at Section 3, Guguletu where the blue Opel Record was finally parked, or dropped off?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I have no knowledge sir.

MR PRIOR: The weapons that you had used in the attack on the Tavern, did you take those with you or did they remain in the blue motor vehicle?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We took the weapons, I took them with.  The other Africans also had weapons.

MR PRIOR: What weapons did you take with you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: All the weapons we used at the Tavern.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the other Africans took weapons, who are you talking about?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: When I refer to Africans, I am talking about the people I got off the car with.  There were three other people, I was the fourth one.  The other two went to drop off the car.

MR PRIOR: Can we just get clarity.  Who alighted with you at the stage when you in fact did?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The person I alighted with is Zola, Theofolus and Xolani Jantjie.

MR PRIOR: And who remained with the vehicle when it drove away, obviously to be dropped off?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The people I commanded to go and drop off the car was the unit driver, Maxebo and Madasi.

MR PRIOR: Were there any weapons in the vehicle after you had alighted?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, there was no need to leave with weapons, there were no weapons in the car.

MR PRIOR: Was that as a result of a prearranged plan?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, it was an appropriate decision that there be no weapons left in the car.

MR PRIOR: I want to leave that for a moment and then deal with your evidence as you presented it.
	Now, you indicated at the  outset that you had received training out of the country, in various places and that you had returned to South African in 1991, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is so.

MR PRIOR: And part of your training, was that also political education, other than military training?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, you are educated about politics in the camps.

MR PRIOR: Would you describe yourself as being politically aware as an APLA cadre returning to South Africa at the time?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Please clarify the question, it is not clear to me.

MR PRIOR: Were you politically aware, aware of the political discussions, policies, principles enunciated by APLA at the time of your return to South Africa?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I could say it is so.

MR PRIOR: In comparison with your co-applicant Mr Mabala, what sort of training did he receive or had he received when you first met up with him, can you tell us?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all I cannot know what kind of training he got, what I know is the type of training I got.

MR PRIOR: The question is can you tell us what sort of training Mabala had, Mr Mabala had before you embarked on the Heidelberg attack?  Are you saying that you did not know?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Whose training?

MR PRIOR: Mr Mabala, the gentleman seated to the left of you.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Please clarify the question, simplify it?

MR PRIOR: Did you know whether he had received any military training before you attacked the Heidelberg Tavern?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I was together with him in Tanzania.

MR PRIOR: So would you say then, would it be fair to say that you and he had a similar type and amount, of training militarily as well as politically before you returned to the Republic of South Africa?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I wouldn't say so.  I spent more time out there than him.

MR PRIOR: And Mr Madasi, your other co-applicant, did you know what training he had undergone?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: At the time he was being trained, I was not there, therefore I do not know what type of training he received.  But I know that he was trained inside the country.

MR PRIOR: Did you ever ask him what sort of training or experience he had had prior to the attack on the 30th of December that you launched in Observatory?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I had nothing to do with the type of training that he received, this is why I never asked him.

MR PRIOR: Did you accept that he was properly trained in the use of firearms?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all, the Commander that chose this unit, must have known the reasons why he chose this specific people.

MR PRIOR: But I understood that you were the Commander responsible for this particular attack, were you not interested in finding out whether the people that had been assigned to you, were equally capable of performing the type of attack that you have described, or did that not interest you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I had no interest in that because I trusted the people.  My job was to carry out the orders from above.

MR PRIOR: And those orders you say you received from  the person Nonxuba, who is now deceased, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is so.

MR PRIOR: Not from Letlapa  Maphalela?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is clear that Letlapa had knowledge of these orders.

MR PRIOR: Why do you say that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Say what?