Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was Lieutenant Erasmus and Lieutenant Shaw.

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman, the point has come to its limit.  No more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEMANE

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Nemane, if this would be of any help to you, you will notice on page 13 of the record that in summarising the evidence of the deceased's mother, the Court noted that two items were identified, and in the context of your argument I would say only two items are identified by the deceased's mother.  That was the wrist watch and the radio cassette player.

MR NEMANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: You were arrested on the 9th of February.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: By Warrant Officer Pietersen, is that so?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You were taken in a police vehicle?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes Sir, that is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Subsequently two credit cards or money cards from Santam were found pushed down next to the seat where you had been sitting.  Do you know anything about these?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I know nothing about that, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: That belonged to the deceased.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I know nothing about those credit cards.

JUDGE WILSON: You heard the evidence being given though by Capt Gwala, I think you said that he looked and found them, on the next ...(indistinct).

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That was the evidence given by Lieutenant Pietersen, but that was not found on me.

JUDGE WILSON: You told us also now in your re-examination that you shot the deceased first and when he fell down you ripped off his watch and left, do you remember that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, it happened exactly like that.

JUDGE WILSON: What about putting wire on his wrists, his ankles and round his neck?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I did not put any wires around his neck and arms.

JUDGE WILSON: You know nothing about that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: (Answer not interpreted)

MR VISSER: For what it is worth, Mr Chairman, I might refresh your memory, I did ask him that question and he denied that he did it.   He added, if I remember correctly, that while he was loaded in the boot of the car, somebody else might have done it, one of the two policemen.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought your question is about strangling?

MR VISSER: And well wires, yes, strangling specifically, Mr Chairman.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: To assist the Chair, Mr Chairman,  the applicant's statement at page 2 thereof, refers to what the Chair is having a problem with, the last paragraph, the sixth paragraph,  "When he fell down I used the hanger to tie his hands and feet".

JUDGE WILSON: "A hanger to tie his hands and feet".  You said in your statement that you submitted in your application, that when - that you shot Venter, with a single shot which hit him on the forehead and when he fell down, you used the hanger to tie his hands and feet.  That is in your statement which you submitted in your application for amnesty.  Do you now say you know nothing about it?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't remember me tying him up personally.

JUDGE WILSON: Please bear with me for a moment.

ADV DE JAGER: So this was your statement attached to your application.  It is not evidence that you have given in court, it is your own statement, which we refer to as an annexure to your application, and this statement was given, I would say round about August, last year.  So it is about six, seven months ago.  Can't you remember writing that down?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I do not remember exactly what I said there, but I did mention that I took the watch.  I was given two hangers to tie him up.

ADV DE JAGER: Now did you tie him up or didn't you tie him up?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If I can try and recall, I might have tied him up, but I don't remember doing that.  What I denied was the fact that I didn't strangle him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, with reference to the next of kin of the deceased, they are not here, but I refer, Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, to the letter which was handed up yesterday which the members of the Committee made use of in putting questions to the applicant, and that sums up this application in respect of the Venter assassination.  The letter dated 19 ...

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman, I have difficulty with the disclosure that the writer of the letter is not going to appear before the Commission.  Whilst at the same time the contents of her letter has been brought to the attention of the Commission, and obviously for no reason other than that, this Committee should have regard to its contents.  It seems to me that it is an unfair way of dealing with the application, even if it might be said that there is relative informality in this applications.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But we will surely bear in mind that it was just a letter presented to us.  We cannot attach to it the kind of weight, if at all, that it would not deserve.  And of course, we will also bear in mind that the contents thereof were put to the applicant and he responded thereto under oath.

MR NEMANE: I am indebted to his Lordship.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then, Mr Chairman, that sums up the Venter assassination and as agreed upon....

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, as foreshadowed in chambers, I have an affidavit with timesheets for leave, in regard to Erasmus, merely for the sake of avoiding to have to forward it, Mr Chairman, may I hand it up right now as EXHIBIT B26.

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman, I have a difficulty with the manner this said document is being dealt with.  I have been shown the document.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I withdraw it, I will just mail it to you. It's as simple as that.

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman, this is fraud in open court.  I am making an objection to the submission of a document and he promises you that he will mail it to you.  Mr Chairman, I have looked at this document. I am not satisfied about certain matters arising out of the document.  In my submission it is a document which should be authenticated by its writer and its writer should come and present evidence before court and be cross-examined on the contents thereof.

JUDGE WILSON: We are not holding a trial here, as you are fully aware. I have not seen the document, I don't know what it is, but if it is merely to place on record an extract from an official document somewhere, I cannot see why it should raise problems.

MR NEMANE: It is not an extract from an official document, it is a computer print-out, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, at least you have been made aware of it and I take it you will investigate it and when this hearing re-starts you will be prepared and you will have everything to your disposal.  You have been warned now so that you can deal with this document.

MR NEMANE: Yes, Mr Chairman, the matter is not that simple.  The applicant is sitting in prison. I am acting on the instructions of the Legal Aid directly.  I am based in Johannesburg.  I don't have an attorney, I don't have the means and the resources to come back and start investigating the matter again.  And Mr Chairman ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Well,  please apply to the Commission.  You are aware of it, that the Commission could assist you, or recommend that you be assisted.

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman, this is not a matter which should be resolved by investigation. It is a matter of evidential nature, which requires that the writer thereof should be present in court and be cross-examined.

ADV DE JAGER: Wel, I presume he will be present.  If you require to cross-examine him.

JUDGE WILSON: As you know, it has been already indicated that affidavits are handed in, but if you indicate you wish to cross-examine on them, the attestant must be available to be questioned.

MR NEMANE: And the admissibility thereof can be decided thereafter?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR NEMANE: As the Chairman pleases.

JUDGE WILSON: Hand it in.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
EXHIBIT B26 HANDED IN