Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

MR VISSER: On page 29E of the bundle you stated that you received certain legal advice with regard to Nomasonto, Tax and KK, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: May you repeat your question please, Sir.

MR VISSER: Were you advised that you possibly committed certain offences with regards to abduction in regard to Nomasonto, Tax and KK?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you therefore apply for amnesty for that, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Why did you do these things, Mr Thulo?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, let me explain briefly.  I committed these acts due to the circumstances that reigned during that time and I was employed by the South African Police.  I was fulfilling the instructions.  When I was given instructions I implemented them, that's why I committed these acts.

MR VISSER: Did you do these things believing that you were supporting the government of that time?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: And to protect the property and lives of people in South Africa?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  Any cross-examination, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, my learned friend, Mr Koopedi will cross-examine Mr Thulo.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Thulo, you've said in your evidence that you joined this unit about seven months before September '87, is that correct?  '87.

CHAIRPERSON: You said September, he said seven months before December '87.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps before then, you've said that in '85 you joined the Police, before '85, what were you doing?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I think this was not cleared, I said I arrived in this unit in 1985.  I had been in the Force already, but in the Security Branch I arrived in 1985.

MR KOOPEDI: When did you join the Police?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I joined in 1981, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Before joining the Police, had you worked anywhere else?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Before joining the Police, Chairperson, I was a teacher.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you teach?  Did you teach in the Ladybrand area?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was teaching at Mqueleng in Ficksburg, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now after joining this unit, I believe we are now in 1987, what were your duties within this unit, what did you do with members of this unit?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Honourable Chairperson, the main function within this branch was to gather information.  I would say to gather information, that is against the government and this information must be coming from the so-called liberation movements.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you have gathered this information what did you do with it?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: After gathering information Sir, we'd go back to the office and report back and the office would give us an instruction to report this further to the Head Office.

MR KOOPEDI: Who would you report to?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We were working with Mr Robertshaw.  When he was not present in our midst we would report to him after information and he would take it to his senior.

MR KOOPEDI: I need to understand this properly, if you'd bear with me, would you get information from an informer, take that information and report it to your superior or somebody senior to him, or would there be an instance where your unit talks about this matter, discusses the type of information you have?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, this was happening all the time, each piece of information that we gathered, we would discuss it amongst ourselves, trying to get the truth about that and after that we would report it.

MR KOOPEDI: So would I be correct to then say that you or any member of your unit would sort of know what the other one was doing, would sort of know what information the other one has gathered, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It was not an everyday occurrence, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, what do you mean it was not an every day occurrence?  What are you talking about?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I'll explain it this way.  It was not always that I would find myself involved in a discussion with some members of my unit.  May I carry on, Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: You may.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Some of the things on my arrival would have been discussed already and I would be informed.

MR LAX: Well you see, you just told us a few minutes ago that
"Each piece of information we get we'd discuss, trying to get to the truth of it before making a report."
Those were your very words you used.  Just listen to my question now.  If you discussed each piece of information, how can you say it was seldom that you had discussions?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, let me take you back a little bit.  You must have heard in this same Committee that there were issues within the South Africa Security Branch that were meant, they were on a need-to-know basis.  At some instances you would not even dare to ask why certain things were happening.

MR LAX: Well you see my problem with that answer is that you've told us in your own words that you would discuss each piece of information, to verify the truthfulness of it before you reported it.  So it's not about need-to-know, it's about taking your sources, your intelligence that you get and making, verifying it amongst yourselves before you give a report.  Those were the words you used, no-one put those words in your mouth.  You understand?  Anyway, carry on Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Let's talk about Betty Boom.  When did you know that your colleagues have started befriending him?

CHAIRPERSON: It's a lady.

MR KOOPEDI: Her.  Sorry.  I'm indebted, Chairperson.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It had not been long before this incident, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: What is that, could it be two weeks, two months?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I can't estimate really.

MR KOOPEDI: And what exactly did you know about Betty Boom, what was - when the matter was discussed with you, what was said about Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Allow me to ask a question.  When I was informed, or when the issue was discussed, which one are you talking about, Sir?

MR KOOPEDI: At any stage, whenever you spoke about Betty Boom, whether it's when you were informed or whether it's within discussions.  What I'd like to know is, what was the contents of that discussion?  What were you talking about, what exactly were you saying about Betty Boom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: If I recall very well, Mr Michael Jantjie told me that they found an informer and this is an MK member and this person is in a very good position to work for the MK.

MR KOOPEDI: And after that information were you ever privy to any other information, other than her having agreed to work for the police?  Did anything else come, did you get information that Betty Boom has supplied your colleagues with information?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not recall getting such information, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: If I understand you properly you do not recall, it might have happened.
	Now after having been told that she has agreed to become an informer, were you told of the plan to abduct her?  That is before being given orders to go and fetch her, were you ever told of a plan to abduct her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when did you know that Betty has to be fetched?  You don't know that she was to be abducted.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, on the day of the incident I was informed that we are leaving with these people to go and fetch Betty.

MR KOOPEDI: And I take it you were a full-time member of this unit, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Sir.