Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

DITINI THYIDO: That is so Your Honour, but I would like to clarify one small matter. Mr Makalene is a member of the ANC or a Chairperson of the ANC but also a resident of that area.
	Some of the defence matters were affecting him in that manner, as a resident.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you discussed the matter of holding a meeting with Mr Mpisane in respect of his mismanagement of funds of the SDU with Mr Makalene?

DITINI THYIDO: I told him about that on the morning of the 29th.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What prevented you from telling him about the tip that you had received that Mr Mpisane was an informer?  Is it not true that being accused of being an informer in the township was the worst crime that you could be accused of?  And that it would have in fact been of great interest to the ANC as an organisation?

DITINI THYIDO: It is so Your Honour.  But the issue of Mr Mpisane was not that he was an informer, but because on the 27th me myself and Mr - my colleague here, are alleged that we attacked a police van.
	It was not just an allegation, but people did see them doing such.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did see who doing what?  Which people saw who doing what?  I am not with you there?

DITINI THYIDO: Us on our side as the SDU's and the Site B residents who were certain that these people were corroborating with the police because myself and Mkhulutha did attack the police van and we were arrested on that day, on the 27th and we were discharged on bail on the 29th.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But how did you know that Mpisane was corroborating with the police?

DITINI THYIDO: On our arrest on the 27th, Mr Mpisane was present in the Mitchells Plain court.  He is the one who said that we should discuss this matter over to disperse such differences that was in December 199...

SISI KHAMPEPE: I will repeat my question again and try and make it less complex.  How did you know that Mr Mpisane was an informer?

DITINI THYIDO: I saw him in the company of policemen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when was that Mr Thyido?

DITINI THYIDO: On the 27th of August 1992.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what was he doing with the police that made you believe that he was an informer?

DITINI THYIDO: I would not know what they were actually doing, but Mr Mpisane as my leader, as it was generally known that a person of his calibre should not be seen with the police because of their behaviour.
	Thus I realised that he is corroborating with them when we were being arrested for something else.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you make any endeavours to make any enquiries from Mr Mpisane as to what he was doing when you saw him with the police?

DITINI THYIDO: I tried to ask him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what did he say?

DITINI THYIDO: He said man, I do not know what is happening.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that made you conclude that he was an informer?

DITINI THYIDO: This is what led me to believe on this particular day, on the 29th that I should have a moment to discuss with him this before we can shoot him, because I was quite uncertain as to what was he up to, what was his stance.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, did you say you wanted to have a moment to discuss with him before you shot him?

DITINI THYIDO: No sir.  I did not say before shooting him.

JUDGE WILSON: Isn't that what you have just said.  Could we have that played back?

INTERPRETER: The technician would be unable to stop the tape because then he wouldn't be able recording.

JUDGE WILSON: Carry on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you go to Mr Mpisane on the 29th of August, Mr Thyido, I am getting a little confused now because of the many reasons that you have given.  Now you have told us that there are many truths that you have put in your application, now we will ask you for the last time.  Why did you go to Mr Mpisane on the 29th of August?

DITINI THYIDO: As I have already said, we did not go to Mr Mpisane on the 29th but we were having a caucus and we found him on his own, Mr Mpisane.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So your intention was not to go to Mr Mpisane?  You just happen to bump into Mr Mpisane as you were having a caucus?

DITINI THYIDO: According to our caucus we had gone to Mr Mpisane, expecting to find him in a meeting with the policemen and the group that he was involved with.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What did you hope to achieve if you found him in a meeting with the police, what was your intention, what did you intend to do?

DITINI THYIDO: We would definitely attack if we found policemen there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... given you the tip that Mr Mpisane was going to have a meeting with members of the ISU?

DITINI THYIDO: It is another girl named Zukiswa who was a member of the ANC Youth League.  Unfortunately I do not know her surname and her address.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you discuss that tip with Mr Makalene as the local Chairperson of the ANC?

DITINI THYIDO: The constitution of amabutu says he must just be notified, but not to be given any full details.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he notified?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, it is so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was that?

DITINI THYIDO: On the 29th.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your mother killed in any attack?

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's accused number 1.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I am sorry, it was the mother of Mr Mkhulutha.  Was she killed, to your knowledge?

DITINI THYIDO: Yes, she was killed according to my knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you learn about that, immediately after?

DITINI THYIDO: As a member of the SDU I knew it on the very same day, that it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it known as to who did it, who killed her?

DITINI THYIDO: Nobody knew definitely but there were rumours that a certain group and Mr Mpisane were there on that instance, but without any evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination of this witness?

ADV MATHANA: I have no re-examination Mr Chairman.  Thank you.  That concludes the case for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you propose doing, are you calling witnesses?

ADV MATHANA: No Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I don't propose leading any evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we then proceed with the next applicant?

ADV MATHANA: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  The next applicant Mkhulutha was involved in the same incident with the first applicant and the statement is very much the same.
	I propose to let him adopt it as his evidence and to confirm it, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How are you going to do that?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I will confirm that our statement is the same.

ADV MATHANA: Excuse me Mr Chairman, may this applicant be sworn in?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: (sworn states)

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are sworn in in full, you may take a seat.

ADV MATHANA: May I take a seat Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

ADV MATHANA: You have listened and heard to a statement that was read by applicant Mr Thyido, is that correct?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes sir.

ADV MATHANA: Besides the nature of the sentence that was imposed in his case, do you confirm and adopt the contents of that statement as the truth and applicable in your case?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, it is so.

ADV MATHANA: The sentence that was imposed upon you, is it correct that it was effectively 13 years?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, sir.

ADV MATHANA: That is all Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your application for amnesty written in your handwriting?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: No, it was written by Thyido with my assistance.  It was written with Thyido with my assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words the writing, the actual writing was not yours, it was his, is that what you are saying?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When was it that your mother was killed?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: On the 13th of May 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present at the time?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see who did it?