Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: Have a look from line 10 to - well start reading from line 10 and we'll stop you.
GEN WEBB
"MR BERTELSMAN:   On page 1566 it is said, starting at approximately line 7: 'I deal now with the incidents and Gen Badenhorst's statement which has already been mentioned, which is relevant to the Commission's inquiry.'
		7B:  Bruce White, Gavin Evans, Dullah Omar.  Above-mentioned persons were monitored by the CCB as part of the CCB's normal activities to gather intelligence, correct?"
		"Yes."
		"Did you hear that evidence during the Harms Commission?"
		"Yes."
		"You knew, General, that that evidence was not the truth, is that not so?"
		"Yes, Your Honour"
		"You neglected to bring that fact to the attention of your legal representatives, is that not so?"
		"Yes."
		"You neglected to bring that fact or to correct that fact in your affidavit which you read into the Harms Commission testimony?"
		"Correct."
		"And you went further, General, when I was cross-examining you regarding this aspect specifically.  You confirmed that it was only a monitoring which had taken place, correct?"
		"No. Your Worship, may I - I have said that in respect of Omar I have no knowledge of that, in respect of Evans also no knowledge except the Evans/Grosskopf connection."
		"Yes, but we're not now talking about that Evans, and in any event you say you are not allowed to talk about that and that is on the instructions of the Minister.  We're now talking about Gavin Evans.  Now Your Worship, may I refer you to page 2082 of the proceedings before the Harms Commission."
		"COURT:   Yes, yes, I have it."
		"MR BERTELSMAN:   Good.  Approximately from line 8 onwards, and I put it to you, is it correct that Mr Joe Verster was the only channel which was your contact at the CCB?  Your answer was 'Correct.'  The fact that Mr Joe Verster did not reveal this to you or submit this to you was a disregard of a standing order and this refers to these projects."  
There I was interrupted by Mr Hattingh.  
"Mr Chair, that presupposes ..."
and the Chairperson then says to me:
"You ignore Mr Verster's evidence because Mr Verster's evidence was that he had no knowledge of such an elimination, not so?"
		"Yes, Your Worship."
		"Very well.  Whilst this opportunity presented itself you did not say 'But Your Worship, that evidence is false, he did know because he authorised it himself as he admitted to me', not so?"
		"Yes, Your Worship."
COURT:  ..."
...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I think that that is enough, thank you.  Now at page 1717, please start reading from line 9, 1717.
GEN WEBB
"Yes, but you see it goes much further, General, your own evidence before the Harms Commission was a repeated attempt to create a smoke screen that the CCB did not operate internally, not so?"
		"No, Your Worship, my privilege relates specifically to projects which were operated internally."
		"Oh.  General, do you deny that you in your evidence before the Harms Commission, said on more than one occasion 'But we do not act internally, we were not allowed to act internally'"?
		"The evidence was 'We may not."
		"One of those rules, General, which in 1989 was contravened more often than actually honoured by the CCB, correct?"
		"According to the evidence, yes."
		"Not only according to the evidence, General, but according to your own knowledge, correct?"
		"Yes, Your Worship."
		"And it is that knowledge, General, which you failed to mention to the Harms Commission, correct?"
		"Yes."
		"Because you knew, General, that the CCB had been active internally on an ongoing basis."
		"No, Your Worship."

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you.  And if you think that you want to refer to any other portion for the purposes of explaining it, I have already indicated what the situation is.  Would you say that you were in control or not in control of the situation?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, are you talking about ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: The CCB at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Region 6, CCB at the time.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

EDWARD WEBB: Well it seems from the evidence that I wasn't completely in control.

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to turn now to the two specific matters in respect of which you have applied for amnesty.  First of all, did you apply for amnesty because these are two matters in which you knew before you entered the witness box in the Harms Commission, that there would be evidence against you of conduct which may have led to your criminal prosecution?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you become aware that there was evidence that may incriminate you in criminal acts in relation to these two matters?

EDWARD WEBB: By my own evidence which I gave, by requesting a privilege.  Thereby I implicated myself.

GEORGE BIZOS: But did the fact that van Zyl had given evidence of this before the Commission ...

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Kalla Botha?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: And others.  Didn't you feel that you might be prosecuted on that evidence?

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, I testified before the Harms Commission and I requested privilege.

GEORGE BIZOS: But one of the reasons why you do ask for privilege is because you are afraid that you may be charged for committing criminal acts.

EDWARD WEBB: No, I believed bona fide that what I had done was correct or right in those circumstances.

GEORGE BIZOS: Then you had no right to claim privilege.  Because if you've got a right to do things you don't need privilege, do you?

EDWARD WEBB: It wasn't in a court, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why are you bothering to apply for amnesty?

EDWARD WEBB: Because now in retrospect I can see that my actions weren't right.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what do you hope to achieve if you get amnesty?

EDWARD WEBB: What do you mean, what am I trying to achieve?

GEORGE BIZOS: What was your motivation, why did you apply for amnesty?  Other than the purpose of possibly avoiding prosecution for criminal acts.

EDWARD WEBB: That the truth must be revealed now.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now did it occur to you that as a General on top of this structure, that the truth may be that if you told us about everything that you knew, both inside and outside the country, in order to salve your conscience and in order to - you know what it says there, "Truth, the Road to Reconciliation", not just a portion of the truth, did it not occur to you to be open about things that you knew which did not implicate you in criminal activities directly?

EDWARD WEBB: My conscience is clear, Chairperson, I sleep well at night.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well that may be evidence of something else, General, but we will leave it at that if you're sleeping comfortably at night.  Tell me, you told us that your applications for amnesty were the same as previous applications, is that what you said?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You made a similar application on exactly the same facts in 19 - the early '90s, what year did you say it was?

EDWARD WEBB: 1990.

GEORGE BIZOS: 1990.  As soon as the first Indemnity Act was promulgated?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you say that it's exactly the same.

EDWARD WEBB: As far as I know, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you have a copy of that application when the present applications were made?

EDWARD WEBB: I think our legal representatives kept copies.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which legal representative had a copy of your application made in 1990?

EDWARD WEBB: It was done by Adv Hattingh.

GEORGE BIZOS: And who was the attorney?

EDWARD WEBB: Adv Hattingh, Adv Wessels and the attorney - well I mentioned him yesterday.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wagener.

EDWARD WEBB: No, no, ...(intervention)

MR LAX: You said Havenga yesterday.

EDWARD WEBB: Havenga, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Havenga or Wagener?

EDWARD WEBB: Havenga.

GEORGE BIZOS: Havenga.  Is he an attorney?  Is he still in practice?

EDWARD WEBB: As far as I know, yes.