Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-07-04

WITNESS: The police came to our house and we were sleeping,but he was not there, I must say. They interrogated me. They wanted to knowhis whereabouts. You know, when they come they would come in large numbers,and each one of them will occupy an entrance, and they would even stand at thewindows. I am saying he is my son because I raised him up, and I said to him, "Can you please leave these people because they willend up killing you," and he said to me, "It doesn't matter whether they killme or not." We received a death certificate from the church. They asked me whetherdo I know that Abel Lethaba had died. I didn't follow the death certificate,but I was told that it was a death certificate from the Anglican Church. Theytook photos of him. I have the photos with me. You can have a look at them ifyou want to.

UNKNOWN: Mrs Thapedi, were those photos taken after he had died, afteryour grandson had died?

WITNESS: The photos were taken when we unveiled the tombstone.I have the photos with me here. And the death certificate. You can take themand have a look at them. Even today I have never heard anything. I have neverheard anybody coming to tell me what happened to my son.

UNKNOWN: Mrs Thapedi, thank you. We will definitely have a look at thosedocuments after you have given your evidence. Are you satisfied ... (intervention)--- Can you please bring the documents.

UNKNOWN: Are you satisfied, or are you not satisfied, that the person- that the body that you exhumed and reburied was your grandson? Are you satisfiedthat that was your grandson?

WITNESS: I was never satisfied. He died here and theydidn't even tell me when they buried him. I don't know anything. Where are thosephotos?

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... absolutely sure you get them back. I promiseyou. Mrs Thapedi, so what you would like the Commission to do is to investigatehow your son died, and whether the body that you exhumed and reburied was infact your son, is that correct?

WITNESS: I was never satisfied with the bones. Those were not the bones of my son.

UNKNOWN: Mrs Thapedi, the Commission will do whatever it is able todo to try and investigate that matter and to try and clear up this confusion,this mystery as to the death of your son. I now ask - unless you've got anythingelse to say I'll ask the Deputy-Chairman to ask the other Commissioners whetherthey would like to ask any questions.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Mr Lyster. Are thereany other questions? Yes, Dr Mgojo.

KHOZA MGOJO: Just short questions just to get the wholepicture of this. Mr Thapedi, you said that you were working outside the country.Was it Lesotho?

WITNESS: I think I've toured the whole country, but there are partsof the country that I couldn't reach, especially the very violent areas.

KHOZA MGOJO: You said in your story when you wanted to follow your son,when he had left, you were told that you must not follow him. Who are the peoplewho said that you must not follow him, and did they give you the reasons whyyou should not follow your son?

WITNESS: Yes, they gave me a reason. They said hewill end up at the hands of the police. And then I thought to myself this istrue, because I don't know who was really after his back.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you. The last question but one about the exhumation ofthe body. Did you ask these people that they must exhume the body of your sonwhen this process took place?

WITNESS: Yes, I agreed with them because I wanted tobe satisfied. Because I couldn't go to anybody to complain. I thought my heartwould be at ease, but I have realised that I am not satisfied at all. I am still notsatisfied, because he left in one piece, but when he came back he was in pieces,he was in bones. I don't have any evidence whether have we buried the rightperson or not. I think I have already said that I don't want us to go and exhumethe body, it's not necessary, because we have already put a tombstone, but Imust say the enemies must come forward and they should confess so that I canbe satisfied. If they tell me a different story I might be satisfied, but atthis moment I am not.

KHOZA MGOJO: (Inaudible) ... last question. You said during your testimonythat you received a death certificate from the church, and even suggested thatit was said that it was from the Anglican Church. Do you know which church,where it is situated, and who is the priest - or who was the priest or who isthe priest for that church?

WITNESS: We didn't follow this issue. We only knew thatit was from the Anglican Church.

KHOZA MGOJO: Any reasons, Mama, why you didn't follow it, because this isan important thing. You get this certificate, you are hurt, your son has beenburied, you're not sure that it's your son, and then you get a clue that itis the church which has buried him. Was it because of fear or what that youdidn't follow this when there was a certificate?

WITNESS: I was scared. I was afraidof following up this matter, and I didn't do anything. You wouldn't say anyword. As the father of this child I went to the mortuary to find the death certificate,but they didn't give me any clue. We have to get the death certificate at themortuary, but they couldn't give me one. I even went to the police to find outwhat happened, and they said, "We don't want to involve ourselves with peoplewho skipped the country." It was difficult because nobody wanted to listen tome. It was difficult for me then.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you.

WITNESS: I think I wasn't at home when my mother receivedthe latest news and the death certificate. I have tried my best. I have beento places to find help, but no help was given to me, and she only received itby post.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you, Sir.

MRS GCABASHE: Mr Thapedi, can you please go back whenyou said something about the exhuming of the body. When you exhumed the bodywas there a doctor, or was there a person who could tell you whether those boneswere those of your son?

WITNESS: No, they didn't want me to get that kind of information.I want to tell you - that is at the mortuary. I was only shown the bones, andI saw them at the mortuary, and that was the last time. Even when they wereat home I didn't want to open the case to have a look at the bones.

MR LAX: Mr Thapedi, attached to your statement is aburial order that was given to us. Firstly, can you confirm that this is a copyof the burial order that was actually given to you?

WITNESS: We received that lettervery late. That person was just telling me that he will give me an informationas to what happened to my son. Even the names that are on that letter I do notknow them. Those are fictitious names. I know my son's names. He is Abel Thapedi.Those are just fictitious names. I do not know them.

MR LAX: One other question. Who is the person that actually gave youthis letter?

WITNESS: I was given the letter by YT Mohapi. He called me to theANC offices and then he gave me the whole in formation. The documents we gotthem from him.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... follow up with him about that. Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mrs Thapedi and Mr Thapedi, your son andgrandson died under very mysterious circumstances. One of the worst things isnot to know, not to be sure, and you have heard my colleagues tell you thatwe are going to do everything we can. We will try and talk with Mr Mohapi andalso with Mr Mdewe, and we will do everything we can to establish as much ofthe truth as we can, and as soon as we do we will be in touch with you again.
In the meantime we give to you our love and our condolencesin the loss of your son. We have noted your requests. We will do everythingwe can to assist, and we trust that God will give you strength and grace tocontinue. And thank you again very much indeed for coming.

UNKNOWN: Good afternoon, Mr Olifant. You can hearme all right?

SHADRACK THEKO OLIFANT: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: No problem?

SHADRACK THEKO OLIFANT: No problem.