Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said it was white.  Mr Radebe said he drove the white kombi and Mr Mbane in his statement said he went in a blue kombi.  So if you could just put that again, start from the start again.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Radebe, Mr Mbane will say that the kombi was in fact blue and not white as you maintain, the kombi that you all used to use.  Blue and not white.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I dispute what he's saying because the blue kombi belonged to Sgt Almond Nofomela.  It was used by him, therefore it was not possible to use his kombi unless they would go to a particular police station and then they would give us another car, but if you use the kombi which has been authorised to you, you'd use it all the time.  So I was authorised a white minibus.

MR SAMUEL: You know I've gone through the evidence in this matter and I notice, subject to correction, that at certain times vehicles used to be re-spray painted, because they didn't want anyone to know that you all were using one particular vehicle.  Do you recall that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I don't remember that point.

MR SAMUEL: Alright, be that as it may.  Now you'll agree with us that because Ms Kubheka was becoming suspicious, you all then informed - when I say "you all", it will be yourself, Mr Mbane and Mr Dube, would have informed your superiors about Ms Kubheka's suspicions.  Am I right?  You confirm that she was becoming suspicious?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I do, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: And Mr Mbane will say that Mr Taylor had informed you all that you all should pick Ms Kubheka up and bring her to him, or to the white colleagues.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember being informed by Mr Taylor, I remember that we were told by Mr Coetzer.

MR SAMUEL: Alright.  That might be so according to your version, because of your illnesses presently, but Mr Mbane can confirm that Mr Taylor had told him that, or told you all to pick up Ms Kubheka.  If I may proceed.
	Now is it not true that even at that stage, in 1987, you suffered with an eye problem, am I right, in that you could not drive in the night?  You had difficulty driving at night.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I had no eyesight problem in 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any difficulty in driving at night?  Some people have that difficulty without having a particular eye problem.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Which year, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't ...(intervention)

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Which year, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: 1987, the year that the abduction took place in Durban.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson, that is not true.

MR SAMUEL: You see, I refer to paragraph 20 of Exhibit G, and Mr Mbane will say that on that day in question - sorry, before I come to that, is it not true that Mr Mbane and Mr Dube were also drivers?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Dube was driving.  I and Mbane, we were heavily drunk, therefore Mr Dube was not drinking.  But on that particular day we were drunk, it is not that I had an eyesight problem.

MR SAMUEL: What are you saying now, that you were drunk and therefore you could not drive with motor vehicle?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the day that Ms Kubheka was abducted, when I say abducted, the day that she was picked up, either at the station of the Kentucky and taken down and handed over to the white policemen, you were drunk?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Not on that particular day, the day when I was drunk was the first time when I saw her.  Then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's the day that you parked a kilometre away from the house?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
	All I want to know is that on occasions you will alternate driving, in that Mr Dube or Mr Mbane or yourself would drive a motor vehicle on a specific operation.  You were not the only driver in that team, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was the driver because they did not have a driver's licence, and then I would not give them the opportunity to drive without a driver's licence.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just ask something here.
	You told us explicitly in your evidence-in-chief, that you drove on that first day to KwaMashu and you parked the car a kilometre away and you told us you were driving, now you say you were so drunk you couldn't drive, Dube had driven.  Please explain this to me.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson, I let Dube drive on the first visit to Ms Kubheka, because I was drunk.  If I'm sober I would not allow him to drive, because if he is engaged in an accident, he would say I gave him the opportunity to do so without a driver's licence.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Lax has asked you is, when you were giving your evidence now today, in-chief, before you started - while you were still being asked questions by Mr Hugo, you said that you drove the vehicle to Ms Kubheka's house and parked it about a kilometre away and the others waited and then - you waited in the car and the others went to the house and later came back to you.  That's what Mr Lax was asking you.  He wants to know why did you say that and now you say well you didn't drive but Dube did, because you were too drunk.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not explain well.  I was driving when we went there.  After we introduced ourselves to Ms Kubheka, we started drinking, that's where Dube started to drive, when we returned.  Dube was not an alcohol drinker, I and Mr Mbane were drinking alcohol.

MR LAX: Well you never told us anything about sitting down and drinking there with the others while you were at Kubheka's place, or with her, as you've just said now.  You never said a word about that in your evidence-in-chief or anywhere else under cross-examination.  Why didn't you tell us that you stopped there and you had a few drinks and you had a nice party and then, only then, you decided to drive off?  Was it usual to drink on duty?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: During the operation you would drink, but in our normal duty we would not drink.  If you are given an offer to drink, we would do so.  If we infiltrated a person and he gives us alcohol and then we say we don't want to drink, we'd create a suspicion.

MR LAX: Why, lot's of people don't drink?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Jimmy started to tell Ms Kubheka that we are drinking and that she should organise a whisky.

ADV BOSMAN: If I understand you correctly, are you saying that you tried to make yourselves more acceptable to her in this process of infiltration?  Is this what you are trying to tell us, Mr Radebe?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Now inasmuch, Jimmy will say - alright, the Corolla, were you in charge of the Corolla also?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson, it belonged to the Durban people.

MR SAMUEL: And is it not true that although Jimmy Mbane did not have a licence, on occasion he drove around, either your vehicle, the kombi, or the Corolla, when you all went on operations?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: They would not drive my kombi when I was there, they may drive when we clean it when they shipped it from a spot to another spot, but not that he would enter into a public road with it.

MR SAMUEL: Right.  Let's go to paragraph 20 of Exhibit G.  Now Jimmy Mbane in his statement also says that he was the driver of the motor vehicle, of the kombi on that day, we don't know exactly what date that was, when you all had killed a person and through the body at the Executive Hotel,  now the only reason - although we want to restrict ourselves to the Kubheka matter, the only reason I'm questioning you on this is because you had raised this matter.  Jimmy Mbane will say that he drove the kombi on that day.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't know that.

MR SAMUEL: And if he had ...(intervention)