Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-07

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean?  Wasn't the information that these people were allegedly having meetings at the coast,  various place, one of which was Mpandi?

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, the evidence that I heard was that such meetings had been held at various stages.  There was no evidence that on the day in question, on the 13th April, there was such a meeting, that there was information that people who attended such meetings were present at Mpandi.

CHAIRPERSON: That follows that's why they went to Scot and they got information that there were these white people who were staying there who had gone to the coast and who were returning around five or whatever time it was said.

MR SMUTS: Your statement says
"We were also informed that some Boers are going to camp at Mpandi."
Who gave you that information and when?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I've indicated that I'm unable to recall as to who specifically gave the information but at the time we were going to Mpandi we had in our minds that that is the area which has alleged to have as an area, as an infiltrated area.

MR SMUTS: Yes, I understood your evidence earlier to be that that was because you had heard that meetings had been held there, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: This is far more specific, this tells you that some Boers are going to camp there?  When did you get that information and from whom?

FUNDISILE GULENI: What I know is that that is an area which the Boers used to camp in, that is an area that it has been alleged that they are using as a area to hold meetings.

MR SMUTS: It was also an area used by holidaymakers, was it not?

FUNDISILE GULENI: At that time I had no information of such a nature.

MR SMUTS: It was a holiday season at the time when the events occurred, was it not?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: And we've heard that you passed - that holidaymakers were passed by the Flagstaff party on their way to Port St Johns?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: There were holidaymakers in the area of which you were aware?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Can you come again?

MR SMUTS: You were aware that there were holidaymakers in the area?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Which area.

MR SMUTS: The general area of Port St Johns, along the coast.

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you know that Mpandi, is it Mpandi?  That Mpandi area and Khumolo were places for holiday resort where holidaymakers would go?  Did you know that?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We didn't know the area until such a time we went there, except the one who knew.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you grow up?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: You were staying at Port St Johns, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you grow up?  Where did you stay all your life?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I was staying in town.

ADV DE JAGER: In Port St Johns?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't know this was a holiday resort?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes because I was never been to there and I stayed in Port St Johns as from '90.

ADV SANDI: Where did you stay before 1990?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Before 1990 I was staying at home in Lusikisiki.

ADV SANDI: Isn't that just about the same area, Lusikisiki and Port St Johns?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No, Lusikisiki is about five kilometres from 4, 5 kilometres from Port St Johns.

ADV SANDI: So in 1993 it was unknown to you that Port St Johns had holiday resorts one of which was Khumolo and Mpandi, that was unknown to you?

FUNDISILE GULENI: It was unknown to me that Mpandi was a holiday resort.

ADV SANDI: Were you aware of any holiday resorts in the area of Port St Johns?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes, I was aware although I was never been to those coastal areas except the one in town, coastal area in town.

ADV SANDI: Which ones were those?

FUNDISILE GULENI: In town it was Second Beach and First Beach as well as Third Beach.

ADV SANDI: How far were those from the place where the deceased were attacked and killed?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I can estimate that it was about 40 kilometres from town.

MR SMUTS: When you said in your statement after having recorded that you received information that armed Boers had arrived at Costello's place, others at Second Beach Cottages and that you'd been informed that some Boers are going to camp at Mpandi Wild Coast, when you said:  "these are the reasons that resulted us in attacking them" what reasons were you referring to?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I was referring to the reasons that I've already mentioned, been mentioned such as the information we often get from the people who are reporting that there were meetings held at Port St Johns and other coastal areas outside town.

MR SMUTS: Before you went to Mpandi, you did not have any direct information that people who would be found there were in fact linked to Mr Costello or the AWB?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I've indicated, sir, that there was no direct information except that hearsay.

MR SMUTS: And your evidence, when you were being led by your representative, was that you wanted to avoid a situation where you hit people that you would not be targeting, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: When you then went to investigate the area at Mpandi, what did you find when you got there?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We found that there are some white people who are at those camp, some have gone to one of the coastal areas.

MR SMUTS: And that was what was told to you by somebody who you believed to be a servant there, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: Did you see motor vehicles there?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No, I don't remember.

MR SMUTS: Did you enquire, given your concern, that you should not be targeting, should not be hitting people whom you were not targeting.  Did you enquire from the servant as to who these people were, for whom she was working?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if he didn't, he was told that it was Mr Weakley, would that have made any difference?

MR SMUTS: Did you enquire where they were from?  The people for whom she was working?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No.

MR SMUTS: Did you enquire as to what they were doing there?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, that white child you said you talked to, what were you talking to him or her about?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We were just talking, asking her whether is she schooling, where is she from, with whom is she staying at the area.

ADV SANDI: What was the answer to those questions?  What did she say?

FUNDISILE GULENI: She said she's staying with her mom and her father but at that time they were not there, so she said - I don't remember whether she said they are coming from Free State or Gauteng but she mentioned one of those areas outside the then Transkei.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any reason for talking to her?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We had no reason other than to find out whether who were the occupants there at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Who you mean, whether they were white people or not, did you want to know names and addresses and so forth?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Not necessarily names and addresses, we wanted to find out whether who are staying in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: And what do you mean by who?  What kind of people?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I mean white people.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't bother to find out what's there political affiliation?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Even if we bothered but we couldn't have time, enough time to do that.

ADV DE JAGER: No, you could ask the child.

FUNDISILE GULENI: But the time didn't to allow us.  We wanted, the only thing we wanted to know is whether there are any white people in the area.

ADV DE JAGER: But you could see there were two at least.  The child okay and she told you about a woman and a servant already told you that the others have gone fishing and you could ask the servant was she a person staying there or did she come with the people for whom she worked?