Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, you will recall that when Mr Ngo gave evidence, he said that he went with Motsamai to attack the house. Thought it was the house of Max Makubalo but he now realises that it was the house of Citi Mzuzwana's parents or Citi.  We'll make some submissions about that, we're not entirely certain whether he refers to the parental home or of Citi himself.    That is why I asked on both legs, whether this witness knew about the bombing of the house of Citi Mzuzwana Mr Chairman, it's based on that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I was just referring to your affidavits.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  Well at the time, of course, the evidence hadn't been lead, so and in the application, Ngo made mention only of Max Makubalo and that is why that is in the affidavit as it is Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: I'll find it for you immediately, Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman, if you -  bundle A, and I'm just finding a page for you quickly, a typewritten page.  Sorry, yes, it is at page, bundle C page 12, my attorney just pointed out.  And this is what what we had at the time or what Mr Wagner and the witness had at the time when the affidavit was signed.  And it is the item marked (b) little (b), just below the middle of the page
"On instructions of Colonel Coetzee, who at that time held the rank of major, Warrant Officer Tsoametsi, Sergeant Mamome, Constable Mtyhala and I, petrol bombed the house of Max Makubalo in Rocklands"
Now that was changed, Mr Chairman.  If you need the reference to the record I can find that and give it to you but I won't be able to do that immediately.  
      If you give me two seconds, I'm probably going to find it straight away, Mr Chairman.  I have a note here of around page 300 of the record but it may be the wrong reference, I think it may.
  Sorry, Mr Chairman it's around 300, but I'll find it and give it to you.  Is it a convenient time now perhaps to take the tea adjournment, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR TSOAMETSI: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible] this witness.  Warrant Officer Tsoametsi, having worked in the so called white section of security branch, does that mean that you investigated or monitored white persons whom you regarded, I repeat, as activists?
    Just switch on your microphone before you speak.

MR TSOAMETSI: Repeat your question, Sir.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I didn't have my earphones on.

MR TSOAMETSI: Can you kindly repeat your question Sir.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You told us that you worked the white section, Mr Tsoametsi.

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is that the section which investigated or monitored white people who were regarded as activists?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: To your knowledge or recollection, did you ever investigate a person by the name of P.A. Venter?
	P.D. Venter I think it was Mr Chairman.

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR VISSER: The gentleman I'm referring to, just to perhaps jog your memory, was the person in regard to which Mr Ngo has made an application for amnesty for the murder and robbery of that person.  Do you know whom I'm speaking about?

CHAIRPERSON: His dealt with this in his affidavit hasn't he, so I presume he knows who you're talking about.

MR VISSER: Thank you for pointing that out, Mr Chairman.
	As far as you know, did you have a file on that person in the white section, that you investigated?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR VISSER: Do you know whether he was an informant of the security branch?

MR TSOAMETSI: I do not know.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on, there's a matter which I need to raise and I'm afraid I overlooked it earlier.  And that is to try and get an estimate of how long we will be able to continue today so arrangements can be made.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, we will obviously as we've done in the past fall in with any arrangements which you make, bearing in mind that there are consultations which I have to do in the evenings of course.  So frankly, we would prefer not to sit too late but we're absolutely in your hands, speaking for my team Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There are other matters which I would like to discuss with counsel after we've adjourned but I think 5 o'clock, having started at nine would be as late as we could expect people to work here.

MR VISSER: That would be emanently suitable Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I've had agreement from the people behind me who do work all the time.  Very well, carry on.

MR VISSER: Yes, I've completed the evidence in chief, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Tsoametsi, do I understand it correctly that you've already 
retired?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: When did you retire?

MR TSOAMETSI: 1993 in March.

MR DU PLESSIS: And up to that date did you work as a member of the security branch in Bloemfontein?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: You testified that you became aware of the fact that Mr Ngo not was working at Bloemfontein security branch at one stage, is that correct?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you after that date have any contact with him again?

MR TSOAMETSI: I saw him at the court before the Judges, it was in respect of this murder of Venter.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you have any other form of contact with him before that court case?

MR TSOAMETSI: I saw him when he was assaulted by the students.

MR DU PLESSIS: Am I correct if I say that this was while he was still working in Bloemfontein?

MR TSOAMETSI: He was still a student at that time, he was not yet in the police and that was when he was attacked by the school kids.

MR DU PLESSIS: I just want to put my question clearly. From the time that he left Bloemfontein, from that date until the date you saw him at court, did you see him or speak to him in the interim?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS FROM MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Tsoametsi, where you also part of the group of security policemen who interrogated the 19 people who were arrested at Ladybrand.

MR TSOAMETSI: No, Sir.

MR STANDER: Where you at that stage part of the security police here in Bloemfontein? That is the sixth of March 1986?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Can you tell us why you say that you did not participate in the interrogation or were you not on duty that day or what is the position?

MR TSOAMETSI: I was on duty.  As I've explained earlier on, I was in the black section, I was in the white section.  Now there was nothing binding me and Crouse to go to the black section.
    I did not ask them whether they needed my help even though I would have been in a position to help them.

MR STANDER: Please tell me, was a person by the name of Terreblanche busy with the interrogation of these people on that day?

MR TSOAMETSI: I would not give evidence to that effect, I do not know.

MR STANDER: Do you know Mr Terreblanche?

MR TSOAMETSI: I know him.

MR STANDER: Is it true that he was a security policeman who was employed there?

MR TSOAMETSI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: A group of 19 people who have to be interrogated, do you agree if I say that it's a large group of people and that many people had to be involved in the interrogation?

MR TSOAMETSI: I would not give evidence again Sir, to that effect.

MR STANDER: I do not understand you, what are you telling us?  Is it not true that it was a large group of people who had to be interrogated at the same time?

MR TSOAMETSI: You see you don't interrogate people simultaneously, you'd ask questions one by one.

MR STANDER: And you say that you had no part in this interrogation of this group of 19?

MR TSOAMETSI: Not at all, I did not take part at all.