Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-25

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: In South Africa churches were - have always been and  so have they been in other parts of the world as   places of safety where nothing of the sort you have described could ever been imagined to happen and yet we have heard quite a few experiences by people in churches who were chased out of church, shot in church.
So suddenly the image of the church in South Africa seems to have changed and surely for you the day it was unbelievable and it's unimaginable that a place where everybody use to run to for safety suddenly now becomes a target.
I would like to know from you, Paul how -  I know you can feel that you are in pain, I would like to know how has the fact that you are a Christian assisted you in dealing with your pain?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Pumla.  Yes for me as committed a Christian it's always been important to - to attend the church where biblical teaching is very sound.
Now I've - I've learnt from my teaching and also I've discovered for myself from my readings in the Bible that this wasn't a unique event. The church has suffered throughout the years but for you question,  how did I cope with the pain.  For me it was important to come to terms with my situation and you know the Bible teaches me that  I must not only love my neighbours but I must also love my enemies.
The Bible also teaches me that I must if I want people to show compassion towards me, I must be able and willing to show compassion and then I think for me the cherry on the top is what Jesus said on the cross when he said
Father forgive them for they  know not what they doing.
And I must have a loving spirit, I must have a forgiving spirit and I think that greatly helped me and assisted me in coping with my situation.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Has the teachings of the Bible - have the teachings of the Bible being able to -  how have you related to the teachings of the Bible in reality?   Did you find this easy to do what were your struggles, can you share with us what your struggles were in relating that teaching of the Bible to what the reality of experiencing the pain was for you?

MR WILLIAMS: Okay can - can - will you set that question a little easier please.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Did you struggle or did you not struggle with what the teachings of the Bible are and the reality of the experience of the pain and the hurt that you felt.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay no I  don't think I - I didn't struggle like I said I had fairly sound teaching and that helped me to cope with - with that situation.   We as Christians many times people think that Christians are - they are immune from suffering but it's not like that.  You know we are ordinary people like everybody else.
People maybe think that nothing wrong should happen to them, to Christians, but we are ordinary people, you know, the disasters and tragedies that strike everybody else also strike Christians and that helps me to cope with it.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Paul.

MR WILLIAMS: That's my pleasure.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: [indistinct] have become injured in the process of the struggle that is taking place. I just want you perhaps to tell us whether you think our health system has coped adequately with your needs both at the time of your injuries and since.

MR WILLIAMS: Well I was in a very fortunate position Dr Randera  I don't know if you remember that a relief fund was established soon after the massacre and a substantial amount was collected.  I was also fortunate that I did belong to medical aid so I was pretty well covered as far as medical expenses is concerned.   But I do feel that for the ordinary man, well ordinary when I say people that  don't belong to medical aids and maybe where there ain't funds availabe.  I think we can do a lot more to - to secure their positions.  I do also think that we are working towards that, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Ntsebeza.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Paul I just want to ask a question related to your answer to the very first question relevant to perpetrators.  I don't know if you have been following events in Courtrooms since then.  And in the process of the arrest and trying to bring the culprits to book.
You are aware that a 17 year old member of the PAC from Khayelitsha,  Mr Maqoma, was sentenced to 23 years effective - 23 years effective imprisonment in this regard.
You are aware of that - you are also aware that since that three other persons have been arrested in connection with this attack  and they are awaiting trial.

MR WILLIAMS: Ja.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now in view of that what - what would you like the Commission to establish in view of the fact that it appears that there is a process in place that has already sentenced one of the people alleged to have been involved and is in the process of charging others.

MR WILLIAMS: Ja okay - well from my - from my level as human being my personal level, I feel I have forgiven them.   And when I say forgiven them I bear no grudges against them.  There's absolutely no bitterness within my heart towards them. If I come face to face with them I'll be prepared to hug them out of Godly love.
But I also feel that - but on the other hand I would  say that there is also a justice system in the country and over that I don't have control and I will leave that in the - those capable hands.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And finally I would like to ask a question I've asked to lot of people who have been at the receiving end.  If Maqoma for instance who is serving a period of imprisonment for this attack -   were to apply for Amnesty and in the view of the Amnesty Committee it could be found after all the various tests have been applied to his case that he deserves to be granted Amnesty and he were to walk the streets as a free person as a consequence of that process.  What would your reaction be?

MR WILLIAMS: Like I said advocate, it is beyond my control that him being granted Amnesty, but should he go free and walk on the streets, my duty as committed Christian should be I think to reach out to him.  And that is what I would like to do.

ADV NTSEBEZA: You are very rare person, Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.