Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: You see, Dr Basson, and it would be nice if you gave us quantities of mandrax being used in Cape Town just now, but from your understanding, it takes 150mg of methaqualone to produce one mandrax tablet, so 1 000kg would be approximately six million tablets, six million, and we're also talking therefore, if you take the price of a mandrax tablet, as I've been advised the average price is about R25,00, just for the 1 000kg of mandrax, we're talking about 150 million rands worth on the streets.   In terms of the ecstasy, if you work on a price of R100,00 an ecstasy tablet, we're talking about 600 million rands worth on the street of ecstasy, we're talking about huge sums of money potentially available to anyone who produces the substances and puts it on the street.   Now... (intervention).

DR BASSON: Chairperson, this is a long question.   I've already forgotten what he said in the first few sentences.

MR VALLY: Now, would not the temptation be extremely great to manufacture these substances for your own profit?

DR BASSON: Mr Vally, for the last three days I was tempted by the girl behind me.   We're all subjected to temptations.   The fact that the temptation was there does not mean that I succumbed to that.

MR VALLY: I see.

DR BASSON: And first I'd like to answer that Mr Vally must  sort out his facts.

CHAIRPERSON: You are making that lady blush, Doctor, she's blushing, she's crimson red with blushing, please.

DR BASSON: I was hoping to achieve more than that, Mr... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well... (intervention).

DR BASSON: I just want to correct Mr Vally, I'm not a pharmacologist, but I'm not sure that 150mg methaqualone is the right ingredients, then the Indian manufacturers probably dropped their standards, because the original mandrax which was sold in pharmacies had 250mg in it, so as far as the quantities are concerned, when mandrax, mandrax was still recently a legitimate sleeping tablet, until some brilliant street, I don't know what to call them, some or other user decided to smoke it, and that is how it's used, you don't drink it anymore, you smoke it together with dagga.   So if you want to allege that six million tablets could be made from this, then he's never been in a factory, because you can't provide for every 250mg, there's losses on both sides, so I don't want to comment on his projections, but I'd like to say that at the worst the projections he's made are uninformed, and the financial side of things, I'm not sure if Mr Vally's figures are correct or not, I don't buy mandrax on the street level, R25,00 sounds quite like a bargain to me, because I thought it's a bit higher.   I do not know if I can give any further comment on account of what Mr Vally just said.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: There has been a request from my colleague here that Dr Wouter Basson withdraw his sexist comment regarding the young lady behind him.

DR BASSON: Chairperson, if I offended anybody in this audience, including this young girl, I really apologise, I didn't mean to do anybody harm or to take anybody in the face.   I'd stand on my knees if I have to, I don't know how you can ask for an apology more.

MR VALLY: If you manufactured 1 000kg of methaqualone or mandrax at Delta G... (intervention).

DR BASSON: Can I just make one comment, I just want to, I was actually interested in her cooking ability, if it was thought that I'm interested in anything else, then that's not the case.

MR VALLY: I think Dr Basson is being frivolous and ridiculous now.   I think I'm treating him gently, because he has no legal representation and he's taking advantage, sir.   I think he must be put in his place and (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Vally, no, Mr Vally, please, please, can we take into account my time limits that I've put, and I will stick by them.   You are wasting more time now by this.

MR VALLY: Well let's go on, Mr Chair, thank you.   If you  had the capacity to manufacture methaqualone and you manufactured 1 000kg, why was it necessary for you to go to Croatia and order another, buy another 500kg from Croatia?

DR BASSON: Chairperson, that question's got a direct bearing on my criminal case, and without competent legal representation, I cannot answer that question, except by confirming, like I've said before, that all methaqualone which was obtained was either used or destroyed.

MR VALLY: I put it to you that the 2 300 000 US dollars which were used allegedly to purchase this methaqualone from Croatia either was not paid or alternatively that the methaqualone itself was not used for the purposes that ostensibly you claimed it was used for?

DR BASSON: Chairperson, Mr Vally's now asked two questions. Could he ask me which one he wants to ask me, because I don't know what he wants to know?

MR VALLY: Well, you deal with them one at a time.    You were given 2 300 000 US dollars by virtue of a phone call to your friend, Jacome, he was to disperse this money.   There was no control over it except by you.   Do you accept that?

DR BASSON: Chairperson, no, Mr Vally is on an area now which has got direct bearing on my court case, I dispute the facts as he's put  it  there,  there  was  no  such system where I could receive  2 300 000 dollars or francs or anything else, that's not true.    There was a specific procedure in which the approval had to be given to funds, and in the broad terms there was control over this and I cannot give him any further answer to that question, except to say that it's untrue that it was on whim phone call by myself it was handled and furthermore I cannot answer any further questions, it's a new terrain, this is a new area and it's got direct bearing on my criminal court case.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, with respect, I mean in view of everything else, from time constraints and everything, do you have questions that might, I understand what you're trying to say, but do you have questions that would impact on gross violations of human rights and perpetrations thereof, rather than matters that border on economic crimes?

MR VALLY: With respect, Mr Chair, and I won't be much longer on this issue of the drugs, but mandrax in particular has been a scourge in our communities, amongst our youth, particularly in the black townships, and there's certainly allegations, a thread of allegations running through this entire hearing, that it's possible that people like Dr Wouter Basson purposely enslaved our youths for their own purposes.

DR BASSON: Can I please interrupt this political discussion now?   There's no indication that mandrax was ever produced in this project, it was basically methaqualone and derivatives thereof, which is one of the substances of mandrax, produced, we produced that.   It's not mandrax which was produced.   If Mr Vally can give me evidence of one mandrax tablet, then I'll tell you then I'll be very surprised, there is no such evidence.   Everything which was produced, and that was methaqualone and the derivatives, in order to facilitate absorption in combustion techniques.   Mandrax was a scourge in the Eastern communities long before this project actually existed, we did not invent this and we did not spread this.   We are not responsible for any enslavement of anyone, and if Mr Vally is making allegations like that again, then I would have to stop taking part in the answers to these questions.  It's unfair to put it that way, there's no evidence and there's also no allegations as far as I know.

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, I want to finish off the drugs allegations, because I want to move on to another item, but there are allegations, and I will put it to - if the Chair permits me, regarding time, but there's two issues that I want to quickly deal with, and I have to move faster.   You are aware of the Drug and Drug Trafficking Act No 140/92, Dr Basson?   If you are not, say yes or no.