Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is according to my knowledge because the decision was taken by people at top ranks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Now at the time you made that statement, in your mind what leadership position did Mr Mkhize hold at the time?

MR MTHEMBU: As far as I know I did not have knowledge about his position.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Was he an influential person perhaps within the Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: No, he was a respected person because he was an elderly.

MR BERGER: He was an elderly person so he was respected?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: But he was not a leader, he was not one of the leaders?

MR MTHEMBU: As far as I know Sir, as I have explained I did not have knowledge about that.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, who were the commanders in chief of the attack on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992?

MR MTHEMBU: As I have explained Sir, that Mr Chonco was the person who was in charge of the attack at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And what about Mr Mkhize?  Was he in charge, also in charge of the attack?

MR MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge.  What I can say is that he was present at the stadium where we were addressed about the fact that we were going to launch an attack on Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The question is simple Mr Mthembu, was Mr Mkhize a commander of the attack or not?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I don't have knowledge about that Sir.

MR BERGER: At page 19, question 16 you were asked
"Who between Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize and Mr Damarra Chonco was commander in chief of the attackers on 17 June 1992 in Boipatong"?
Your answer, page 28, paragraph 16:
"Both of them were the commanders of the Boipatong attack on the 17th of June 1992"
Do you have any explanation for that Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: As I have explained here that Mr Chonco was the person in charge and I also indicated that Mkhize was also present at the stadium just before we left on the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: At the stadium, did Mr Chonco address you or address the people who had gathered there?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, did he address them as well?

MR MTHEMBU: I don't remember Sir, whether he addressed us or not.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm no moving onto another section, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We intend rising at one thirty, so perhaps closer to the time you will indicate when it is appropriate for you to do so.

MR BERGER: I will.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, thanks.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I want you now to try an be as specific as you can.  You've said that at some point a decision was taken to attack the Vaal community, we're now talking a number of townships, correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You don't know when that decision was taken, can you tell the Committee how many months before the attack on Boipatong was that decision taken?

MR MTHEMBU: I do not have knowledge about that.

MR BERGER: You cannot say whether it was two weeks before the attack or two months or two years before the attack?

MR MTHEMBU: I would not have knowledge about that Sir.

MR BERGER: Why was the decision taken?  And please try and be very careful in your answer, why was the decision taken to attack the townships of the Vaal if I can put it that way.

MR MTHEMBU: As far as I know it was because there were many people from our organisation who had been burnt in the townships.  There had been several incidents of this nature.  Even in the town people would be abducted and burnt.  I think that was the reason why people were eventually attacked.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, that's why I ask you please to concentrate on my questions.  I'm asking you why the decision was taken to attack the townships of the Vaal, not the decision to attack Boipatong.  Do you see the difference?

MR MTHEMBU: As I'm explaining it to you Sir, as far as I know I think it was taken because there were some of our people who were being burnt down in the townships.

MR BERGER: Now when did that start, the killing of IFP members in the townships?

MR MTHEMBU: As far as I know we started suffering in July 1990, after we had held a meeting in a stadium in Zone 7.  From then onwards we started encountering problems, like people going to work would be abducted and be burnt in the township.

MR BERGER: You say: "in the township", which township are you referring to?

MR MTHEMBU: I am talking of townships such as Sharpeville.

MR BERGER: And which others?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, the meeting that you're referring to which was held at Zone 7, is that right? Was that in Sebokeng?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Was that the meeting of the IFP?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the first meeting of the IFP in Sebokeng?

MR MTHEMBU: As far as I know it was the first meeting in Sebokeng.

MR BERGER: Thank you.
	These attacks that you are talking about are attacks that took place in Sharpeville?

MR MTHEMBU: What I'm explaining Sir is that that is one of the areas of which I heard that our people were being terrorised but our people were also being terrorised in other townships in the Vaal Triangle.

MR BERGER: Well, let's be more specific then, when was the decision taken to attack Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: As far as I know there were people in the Boipatong township who had families there and on their way to their homes they would be abducted and necklaced such as a Mr Gazu that I can still remember and another boy, Mbatha boy, who had also been killed in Boipatong.  It then came to a point where it was discussed that these attacks were now continuing on our people.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question that you're being asked is this: when was the decision to attack Boipatong taken and the date if you know?
	That is your question, is that right Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Yes, yes indeed.

MR MTHEMBU: I would not have knowledge Sir, on when the decision was taken.

MR BERGER: When did you become aware of the decision to attack Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: I knew about it when I had already arrived at the stadium.

MR BERGER: This was on the night of the 17th of June?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct Sir.

MR BERGER: Now the people who were killed in Boipatong, if I understand you correctly Boipatong was selected as a target for attack because members of the IFP had been killed in Boipatong, is that your evidence?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: The people who you say were killed in Boipatong are one, Gazu ...[intervention]

MR MTHEMBU: ...[no English translation]

MR BERGER: Gazwe?

MR MTHEMBU: Gazu.

MR BERGER: Gazu.  And am I correct, you mentioned Mbatha?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, one of them was a boy from the Mbatha family in Mashlabateni.

MR BERGER: Anybody else that you say was killed in Boipatong or are these two the only two?

MR MTHEMBU: I'm only naming those that I know or those that I remember.  I cannot mention others because I do not know them.

MR BERGER: And you do not know of them either, you do not know of any other killings other than Gazu and Mbatha.

MR MTHEMBU: No, I do not.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the question is, apart from Gazu and Mbatha, were there any other IFP persons who were killed in Boipatong but whose particulars you don't know?

MR MTHEMBU: I am trying to explain that there were others that were killed but whose or details I do not know.

MR BERGER: Do you know when Gazu was killed?

MR MTHEMBU: Although I may not remember but it was before the attack on Boipatong.

MR BERGER: How long before the attack, one week, one month, one year?

CHAIRPERSON: Is there an issue as to whether Gazu or Mbatha were killed in Boipatong?

MR BERGER: Indeed yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the evidence that there were no such deaths, these individuals were not killed in Boipatong?

MR BERGER: Well Chairperson, the first time that we've had any particularity on who was killed is now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I just want to find out, is it an issue that these two individuals were killed in Boipatong?

MR BERGER: Yes, yes it is.