Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-02

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, you understood me correctly, that is what I said because the reason for the war was the apartheid regime.  I'm also happy that I contribute to the new South Africa against the apartheid.  I mean if I didn't contribute even you Mr Pillay were not sitting there, but I'm sorry for the family of Stephen and Beki, for harm them, but I'm not feeling sorry for defending the country and defending the people of this country contributing to the apartheid, so thanks for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand you correctly, you were saying as I understand your evidence, that our people should not allow themselves to be used with all these dirty tricks again?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, they are not supposed to allow that, they are not supposed to be used but I think because of the situation and poverty that was prevailing at the time and the unemployment that was so high, if you promise a black person, a person money he can do anything, but I think the people who were involved in the fight we can try and prevent that kind of a situation, but I don't know how will we prevent that if there is a fire I'm involved.  But I don't think it is a wise idea for me to go and purchase an AK-47 in order to kill people because we are in the, a new, I beg your pardon the government of national unity in the new South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: You see you, we're coming to elections again very soon.  Do you think it's wise for our people not to have learned from what has happened before, and so thereby allow themselves to be bought over to create all these things?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: The issue of the election is two fold.  First of all the violence started before, long before the elections, and it went on and on after the announcement of elections, after the date the 27th of April was mentioned.  That is when the people got the opportunity to use the people to kill the larger population who were to partake during the registration.  Perhaps now such things will not happen because some of the people were worried that they will lose power and they were worried that the black people were there to defend their own country and win back the power.  Because of the situation that has happened now, the situation that is brought about this new government and ANC has done a lot of things I think it's the people who were used they've got their own jobs now, they are working now, it won't be easy for violence to be used again.  I'm not sure about Tokoza but I think the registration process is on right now and even the no-go areas are no longer like that.  I went to register at Madondo where the place used to be a no-go area.  I don't feel free if I walk there, but I went there for registration that I'm prepared to contribute in trying to prevent violence.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your evidence also you are saying that some of these firearms that were used in your activities were purchased in Polla Park.  Surely these were not recognised dealers in firearms?  This was gun running, not so?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, is this still available, this facility?  To buy guns illegally.  I tell you why I ask and maybe you must consider your answer in the context of your other answer, where you said in those days, and I can understand why that was so, that offences committed by certain people were covered up by the community.  Now if there is gun running today, this policy of covering up, would that still be in place in respect of illegal gun running?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: I don't think so.  I don't think the community would do such cover ups like before, because I have been using a firearm for several years and I was never arrested because the community used to cover up and the SDU's would do the  same.  I'm not sure that the firearms, the gun running, is still existing, but the way I see things, the Mozambique border is always on guard and the guns would be coming from Mozambique.  I think there is some reduction now in the gun running of, in that gun running.  It's only the people who use them, but as former SDU members we don't think that it is a good idea for us to purchase firearms because there is no need for that we've got police, community policing forum and the community ...(indistinct) that was established out of the SDU's and it's dealing with stability in the communities.  If there were such facilities they would find out.  We also as a community we help the police to arrest the criminals in the community.  I'm not sure if that facility is still available.

CHAIRPERSON: One last aspect I want to cover with you.  It is perhaps a sensitive issue, but I need to know what your attitude would be.  When you killed these two deceased, how did you feel yourself?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: As I've already explained that the heart, I did not have the heart.  I felt nothing.  I was not even guilty.  Whatever I feel it's now I'm thinking for Beki's family and Stephen because they have lost I had lost and I know there's always a gap when someone dies but at that time I did not have a problem.  If it was possible I would kill even ten people because I did not have a heart at that time.  I was hurt because of my parents that were killed.  I did not have a heart.  I was going to do whatever so as to protect myself.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that maybe at the time you were acting as a soldier, or something like a soldier, but even soldiers sometimes, long time after the incident, are affected by it, and maybe need help, and many people have gone through it.  I'm asking you are you one of those that can handle it, or what is the position, or do you know of any other people who perhaps need assistance?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: I think there are people who need assistance, things like counselling for a lot of things.  I do not have a problem as a person.  I don't have nightmares, I have nothing, because I am sure that what I did, I know very well that it's not a good thing to kill, God is against that, but I know that God his hand was on my side, that is why I don't have a problem.  I can cope today, that I think I need some counselling.  I might think that I need no counselling now, but I later realise that I am not coping.  I might think that I'm coping but I know that other people do need counselling because they used to see dogs feeding on dead bodies and they used to see a lot of dead bodies.  Dead bodies, as a human being that has got a serious effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane have you got any questions?

MR SHANE: Just one last aspect Mr Chairman.  Can you remember the 10th of May 1997, that was the day of the deadline for filing your application for amnesty.  Do you remember that day?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes that was the deadline.  That was the day when I filled, when we filled in the forms.  The SDU's from Tambo and Slovo section.

MR SHANE: Where did you fill in your forms?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: That was at Mapanzela Primary School on a Saturday.

MR SHANE: Was it yourself and numerous other members of SDU's together completing forms?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, all the SDU members who were involved in offences that took place before, all of us were there filling in the forms, and we were divided according to incidents, according to separate incidents.

MR SHANE: Were you assisted in this by officials from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, we were assisted.  We were assisted and I would like to thank the people who gave us that assistance and even today they are still helping us.

MR SHANE: Now, you have already told the learned Commissioners that Mzwake Buthelezi was involved in the two murders for which you've applied for amnesty.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, in this two cases that I've mentioned ...(intervention)