Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: We didn't have a meeting, however, we just had a quick conversation that Mkhize was seen.

MR LAX: Carry on.

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Thereafter I actually approached or I actually contacted applicant  Msani  and then we met.  We conversed because what actually frightened us is that Mkhize was on foot, but most of the time, whenever he was going to a place, he would be in a car with some IFP members.

MR LAX: Are you saying that you and Msani had a discussion and you and Msani took this decision?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, jointly, all of us.

MR LAX: Well, you see, you have only told us about you and Msani having a conversation.  You haven't told us where the other conversation happened, that is why I am asking you to explain this.

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it is applicant Msani, Hlongwa, Mabuno Hlongwa and Jogolo Cele.

MR LAX: What I am trying to understand is, where did the five of you or the six of you meet, the five of you meet to make this decision?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: We met on the route.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions arising?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mbutho, you say that before you could kill Mr Mkhize, you had made several attempts to kill him, is that correct?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: And on those occasions, was there already a decision to kill Mr Mkhize?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And when you met on the day that you killed him, that was a confirmation of the previously existent decision to kill Mr Mkhize, is that correct?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes, it is the truth.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  You have been asked about what you say at paragraph 10(b) because what is said there, seems to create the impression that the only reason that you killed Mr Mkhize, was that he had shot Mr Cele.
	At page 59, paragraph 10(a) under state political objective sought to be achieved, you mentioned that there was a clash between the ANC and the IFP, Mr Sixtus Mkhize was leading IFP and they were attacking us together with the ZP.  Was that one of the reasons that made you kill Mr Mkhize?

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbutho, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down now.

FANIE SIMPIWE MBUTHO: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that concludes the application for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No further witnesses?

MS THABETE: No further witnesses.  Mr Chair, maybe I should put it on record that the victims' next of kin, the deceased's wife was notified of the hearings, but she expressed the fact that she wouldn't like to come.
	But I spoke to her this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Do you know if Mr Luthuli was given notification at all?

MS THABETE: Mr Luthuli was not given notification, because it is the first time that we hear about him, at this hearing Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Then perhaps a notification in terms of Section 32 might be in order, although the implication doesn't - his implication in this particular event is somewhat remote, because he was unaware that this incident was going to take place before it happening, in that no one reported to him, but in the sense that he is being named as the leader, perhaps he should be given a notice in terms of that.  Thank you.

MS THABETE: I will see to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ngubane, are you in a position to present a submission to us now, to argue?

MR NGUBANE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I submit that the applicants have made out a case.  As far as I understand, they have to show that their actions were politically motivated firstly.
	I submit that it is not disputed that they were ANC members, UDF members initially.  It is also not disputed that during the course of their membership as UDF members, they were recruited to become the members of the SDU's.
	I do concede that their recruitment might have been done in an amateurish manner, but nevertheless, I respectfully submit that they were members of the Self Defence Unit.
	The story that Mr Mkhize was participating with the kwaZulu police cannot be regarded as being improbable.  I respectfully submit that the TRC hearings are full of that history of the kwaZulu police collaborating with Inkatha and I respectfully submit that what the applicants have said, should be taken as the truth.
	Regarding disclosure, I submit that in so far as relevant facts are concerned, they have fully disclosed their activities in the killing of the deceased.  They have done so in great detail.  Although I concede that there is an aspect by the last applicant, Mr Mbutho which seems to be unsatisfactorily, that he didn't indicate who the people he got the ammunition from, were.
	But I submit that compared to the overall picture of what he has given to the members of the Committee, he has made a full disclosure and his failure to give the names of the people that gave him firearms, could be attributed to a lapse of memory.
	This incident happened in 1992 and this man has been in jail, he has been thinking about some other things and I respectfully urge that his lapse on that score, should not be held against him.
	The evidence has been led and the members of the Committee are apprised of the evidence, and I respectfully submit that to run through all the evidence would be a waste of time, unless there are specific questions which the Committee wishes me to respond to, I cannot take my argument further than this, thank you.

MR LAX: Just one thing maybe, you can address us on Mr Ngubane, and that is one of the applicants indicated in his testimony when asked whether they had got Luthuli's permission to do this thing, that the answer was that he would never have approved it because it was against ANC policy to kill opponents.  Just in the light of that answer, maybe you could address us.

MR NGUBANE: Honourable member of the Committee, I do agree that this answer seems not to fall in square with what they have been testifying.
	But the applicant went further and said that although it was not ANC policy to attack people, the circumstances were such that they had to defend themselves, and from that I gathered that by defending themselves in his mind, it was created that they could kill people if it was necessary.
	I do submit that they were told to defend themselves, it seems that that was not defined and it was left carelessly to their discretion to decide what to do, although they knew that the policy was not to kill, but circumstances were such that they decided to kill people, and they understood that as defending themselves.	That is all that I can submit here.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Mr Thabete, do you have any submissions?