Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

MR MADASA: This is a sketch plan where this incident should have happened.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry I didn't hear what you said?

MR MADASA: This is a sketch plan of the area where the incident happened.

MR MALAN: Mr Madasa I wonder whether you shouldn't try to lead or direct your client a little more to be more specific?  Do you know what the relevance is of him showing this plan of the area to us in connection with the application, why he has to do this in oral evidence?

MR MADASA: So that the Committee has a full picture of the place from the photos and from the sketch, unless the Committee finds that unnecessary.  We can leave that out.

MR MALAN: I fail to see the importance of the area on the sketch in terms of an application.  I would be very pleased if you will ask your client or lead him to give us the evidence specific to what is necessary in terms of his application.  We have a full affidavit here, he's been busy now for the best part of an hour, almost an hour.  He's dealt with seven paragraphs of his affidavit.  I'm really not sure that we're on the right course, if we're going to handle the matter on this basis.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr de Ru, just tell the Committee if you had other members who were part of the plan and why did you post them in regard to this area which was to be robbed?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The arrest of these people was planned by myself and then it meant that an arrest group was set out and back up groups were placed around the shops.  There were also back up groups of all the roads giving access to this shopping centre or away from them, back up groups were placed in these roads in order to stop them if they wanted to escape.  There was a back up group with two members, was placed at the garage, about six hundred metres away from the shop and a listening device was placed in the jacket of Fouche because at previous occasions we had problems with listening device, the fact that it did not record or it did not work, I agreed with Fouche that he'd stop right opposite this garage where the two other members were placed and that there he would give us a specific sign, identifiable sign that is, by taking off his jacket and to put it in the boot of the car.  That would have been the sign indicating that the robbery was going to take place and that the members were armed.
	Fouche understood these instructions.  He gave me the names of the people who would be present.  He also told me that Mrs De Lange would come in the red Toyota and she'd wait at the Tygerbos Fountain and it would be used as a so called getaway car.  Fouche arrived at the office quite late, about half past three.

MR MADASA: Sorry, did you have information as to the firearms they were going to use on that particular day?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Chairperson, the fact that they would have been armed and the confirmation of the fact that they would be armed and the continuation of the robbery would only be confirmed once Fouche gave the sign and we already knew from the experiences from the Friday that they did not commit the robbery as it was alleged they would.  That happened on the Friday so we needed the sign.  The purpose was that in case the robbery was not to continue that they would be followed by a vehicle, police vehicle and we would have withdrawn.

MR MALAN: Sorry, did you say the Friday you've already seen that they did not adhere to their appointment?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I told you that on Friday they also would have committed a robbery but nothing happened, nothing came of it, we sat there the whole day, that robbery never took place on the Friday the 3rd.

MR MALAN: Why do you use the idea of turning up for an appointment.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Maybe I've put it wrong Chairperson, but the fact of the matter remains it did not take place.
	At the office I once again gave the instructions very clearly to all the members who were involved, the back up groups as well as the arrest groups.  Everybody was armed, everybody knew exactly what the instructions were.  The purpose was to arrest these people because they were dangerous and because they could have been armed with dangerous weapons.  Because of that I told the people that if they fired at us we would fire back but that none of them was to fire unless I gave the shot first or gave them the instructions to fire.  I also would like to mention that when Fouche left us this listening device was functioning, it was tested about two, three hundred metres away from us we tested it and it was still functioning fine.  Then we went to the shopping centre and the backup groups went to their different positions, posts.  Me and another ten members took up positions on the roof of the shopping centre and I believe you have photos in front of you, your honour, you'd see that it's a roof.  It's on page 51 in the second bundle page 51, 52, 53, 54. 
	Warrant Officer Harley contacted me and told me that the vehicle stopped right across from the garage and that Fouche gave the identifiable sign and that the vehicle is moving in the direction of the shop.
	Once again I asked him to give the registration number of the vehicle to people in the radio room to confirm that this vehicle was indeed a stolen vehicle and the vehicle then was confirmed by the police as being stolen the previous night.

MR MALAN: When did you determine this?  After you've heard that Fouche had already stopped?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I would just like to tell you that before this evening I gave this registration number through to the radio room and then they said it was negative, but about two o'clock in the morning they phoned me and told me that it was positive so at that stage I already knew it but I still confirmed it with Harley that it was indeed positive and reported back me that this vehicle was identified as being stolen.

MR MALAN: So at two o'clock in the morning it was confirmed to you that it was stolen?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Then Harley told you that Fouche gave the sign and then you'd tell him once again confirm whether this vehicle is stolen and he reports back to you that the vehicle is stolen?  Why did you do that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The reason why I did it Chairperson is because the South African Police 280 is a prescribed form where they write in the enquiries.  I did not know whether they exchanged the vehicle from the previous time Fouche came to me up to now, whether they might have taken the registration plates off or whatever the case might have been.  I only did it in order to confirm that this vehicle was in fact stolen and I wanted to reconfirm it.  It was also indicated on this and the SAP280 in the radio room as about ten to or five to five, it was identified that this vehicle was in fact stolen.

MR MALAN: I do not know if I understand that.  You're in the middle of a very big operation and you're deploying a lot of people and the aim is to arrest people and you have Fouche as part of the group, he's driving the vehicle, so none the less you go and ask Harley if Fouche gave the sign or not and then to once again confirm if the vehicle was stolen or not?  How does that fit into each other?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I wanted to make sure there was no other specific reason for that.

MR MALAN: But why did you want confirm that?  Fouche is in the car, he's driving it?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So why did you want to make sure about this?  I'm sorry but I do not understand this, I'm trying to get into your head.