Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible to indicate with the highlighter as far as you can remember, but if you don't remember, don't make any mark, do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.   I have a problem in remembering, because there are three streets that were used to get out.  I will not remember which one I used to get out.  I do not know what to do.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can't recall, it doesn't matter.  All I wanted to do was just to indicate as far as you can remember.  If you don't, don't do anything.

MR LAX: So Mr Tshabangu, just having looked at the red mark you have made on the map, it stops at the interception of Hlewi and Leqwa Streets?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: And that is because you are not sure what happened from that point onwards?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: After you left Boipatong, did you follow the same route that you followed when you went to Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: I am not sure whether we went back via the back of the nursery.  I should think that we might use the street which goes to ...

INTERPRETER: There is a confusion here.  Maybe he should repeat because we are not understanding exactly what he is saying.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry the Interpreter can't hear you and they are not sure what you are saying, would you mind just repeating what you said.

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember which way we used to go back, whether we went at the back of the nursery, I don't remember.
	But I know that we didn't use the street which is adjacent to the firms.  We only used the street, this particular street when we were about to enter the bridge next to KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Did you use the foot bridge close to Frikkie Meyer Boulevard to cross Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: What happened when you got back into the hostel?

MR TSHABANGU: We entered the hostel, I don't remember exactly who said to us that we should enter our respective rooms as quickly as possible, that is what happened.

MR STRYDOM: Are you aware of any of the looted goods that came back from Boipatong, that was burnt afterwards?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember who gave the instruction to burn the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you partake in the burning of the goods?

MR TSHABANGU: I went to watch the burning of the goods.   I didn't burn them or help to burn them by turning them around or take anything to the fire because I personally didn't take anything from Boipatong, but I did see the goods being burnt.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember when these goods were burnt?

MR TSHABANGU: I think it was during the day, the following day, following the day of the attack, I would say in other words the 18th, during the day.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person with the name of Katsizi?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you know him from?

MR TSHABANGU: From KwaMadala hostel.

MR STRYDOM: His real name is Victor Geswa, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were you involved in any so called hitsquad activities either alone or with him?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of George Khumalo?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were you involved with him in any unlawful activities?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Thinking back today about the attack, how do you feel about it?

MR TSHABANGU: I feel very bad about it.  As I am speaking now, someone might think that I am proud of what had happened at Boipatong, but my soul is hurt.  I have remembered things that happened to me which happened to other people because of me.
	And other people who suffered because of the kind of life that they chose to live.  About the cry of the people of Boipatong community during that night, I can't even explain, it is hurting.  I don't have the words to explain how I feel, but it is painful.

MR STRYDOM: I have no further questions.

MR STRYDOM: .

CHAIRPERSON: At this stage we will take a 15 minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MPLUPEKI SIMON TSHABANGU: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Tshabangu, when you arrived at the corner of Msheshwe and Leqwa Streets, you say that there was some barricades which you removed, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: No.  We didn't remove these items right at the corner, but we removed them along Msheshwe next to Tserela Combined High School.

MR BERGER: Were there any obstacles in the road at the corner of Msheshwe and Leqwa Streets?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: Were there any obstacles in the road at the entrance to the township in Msheshwe Street?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't be able to answer with reference to the entrance.  I will say at the beginning of Msheshwe Street, not at the first or second house, but right at the beginning of Msheshwe.

MR BERGER: What was right at the beginning of Msheshwe Street?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember.

MR BERGER: You see, what I want to put to you is that it was quite possible for vehicles to drive, to enter Boipatong and to drive through the streets of Boipatong that night, would you agree?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, in some roads it was possible.  I can't deny that it will be possible for a car to travel along those streets, however, the fact is I and the people who were with me in the other group, did not at any stage travel in a car from the time we left KwaMadala until the time we went back to KwaMadala hostel.

MR BERGER: I am not asking you about that Mr Tshabangu.  I am asking you whether it was possible for vehicles to enter Boipatong and to drive through the streets of Boipatong at the time when you were there.

MR TSHABANGU: I stated that it was possible that a car could be travelling in some of the streets.

MR BERGER: Which streets are you referring to?

MR TSHABANGU: I can't say precisely which streets, I am trying to recall.   The plan, the conditions in the streets during the time as there were some who were barricaded and some who were not, but I can't specifically say in this particular street a car could travel or not.

MR BERGER: What I just want to put to you is that shortly before the attack, the Police fired shots in Boipatong to clear the streets of young men.
	And shortly after the attack, ambulances were able to enter Boipatong, to drive through the streets of Boipatong and to remove the dead and injured.  So, would you agree with me if I say that it was possible for that to have been done?

MR TSHABANGU: I am forced to agree with you because I can't remember.  I heard during this year 1998 from my friends who stays at Boipatong when we attended a Truth Commission hearing at Boipatong, that before the incident, Police came and shot at people who were guarding the place.

MR BERGER: And by so doing, cleared the streets of those people, is that what you heard?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't confirm that they were clearing the streets or doing their Police work.  I won't be able to answer on behalf of the Police.

MR BERGER: Is it correct Mr Tshabangu, that at the last hearing of these amnesty applications, you told members of the community who were gathered there that Mr Victor Mthembu was telling lies and that you would come and tell the truth?

MR TSHABANGU: I never said Victor lied.  Victor says what he says himself as Victor Mthembu.  I as Mplupeki Tshabangu, I am here to cleanse my heart.  The words that I uttered from the time I started giving evidence, I tried to mention things which I know and things which I had seen.  What Victor said is what he said.  I can't answer on his behalf.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence that you were chased out of Boipatong because of your connections with the Police?