Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-11

MR ERASMUS: I know of them.  I've already said we acted illegally we know that.

JUDGE PILLAY: But you say you acted like a policeman.

MR ERASMUS: Under these circumstances, yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Now which Act gives a policeman the right to kill a person like Mr Kondile was killed?

MR ERASMUS: In this situation which arose here the ANC made use of no Acts or regulations ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: We are not speaking of the ANC ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: May the witness just reply to the question in which ever way he sees fit Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) (microphone not on)

JUDGE PILLAY: I am talking about how you acted as a policeman.

MR ERASMUS: There were no rules in this game that we were busy with from the side of the opposition.  There weren't normal procedures and acts that were of any use anymore, that's what I am trying to tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: You understand that when the State takes the life of a criminal after he's been sentenced to death it is published and the world comes to know about it, that this is the penalty this man has paid, here you pass sentence of death on a man and you and your colleagues then take precautions to make sure that nobody comes to know about it.  That is an awesome power.  Did you realise that?

MR ERASMUS: That is so, yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Mr Erasmus you have only referred to the fact, and your colleague said that you were not busy with the ANC, was there a war in this country or not?

MR ERASMUS: I believe that there was a war between us and the ANC.

UNKNOWN: Were people killed on both sides?

MR ERASMUS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And was it in this situation that this took place?

MR ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And is this your understanding of the whole basis of the National Reconciliation Act that you today are able to be granted amnesty for what you are testifying to now, is that what you understand?

MR ERASMUS: That's what I understand and that's why I am here.

MR VISSER: And if this is not what you had understood you would not have been here?

MR ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: So it has to do with crimes and illegal deeds which were committed, and that is what this act is dealing with.

MR ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus you made the decision together with your colleagues and you gave an instruction, did you, with the execution of the instruction, did you have anything to do specifically with the execution of this instruction?

MR ERASMUS: No.

MR VISSER: Mr van Rensburg said that what he could remember was that he was requested, by you, to deal with this matter, what is your comment in this regard?

MR ERASMUS: That's correct, yes.

MR VISSER: Did you hear about the fact that Mr Dirk Coetzee was to be approached?

MR ERASMUS: I believe that this was mentioned in one of the discussions that he would be approached.

MR VISSER: Can you recall today on what basis the suggestion was made that Dirk Coetzee be approached?

MR ERASMUS: I cannot recall why but I believe that he was involved in Vlakplaas and whether that was the reason I don't know.

MR VISSER: What I do want to ask you is, his commanding officer, Mr Willem Schoon, did you approach him to inform him that you had this problem with Kondile and that you were going to ask Dirk Coetzee to assist your people in his elimination, or words to that effect?

MR ERASMUS: I cannot remember that I spoke to Willem Schoon about this.

MR VISSER: Would you have done this?

MR ERASMUS: I don't believe so.

MR VISSER: In his testimony before the Harms Commission, Dirk Coetzee, on page 331, this is included in Volume 3, page 61, he referred to you by name, actually it starts on page 62.  Page 61 has just been added to give the background, namely that it had to do with the theft of a kombi belonging to members of a trade union which Mr Dirk Coetzee said he and Koos Vermeulen and others stole at a hotel in Johannesburg and then sold this vehicle to a car smuggling syndicate for
R7 000.  And then on page 62 to 63, page 62 sorry, he said that he met you in Lady Grey.  The second paragraph line 3.

CHAIRPERSON: What page is that?  (microphone not on)

MR VISSER: Page 62 of volume 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Line 3.  And to summarise it shortly Coetzee says that he had met you once, that was at Lady Grey where you were together with Mr van Rensburg, I assume this is this Mr van Rensburg and then he gave you that R7 000 he had received for that kombi.  He handed that to you.

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I have met Dirk Coetzee only once and I believe it could have been at Lady Grey.  But if I remember correctly the purpose of this visit was that he was busy there to arrange for road blockades and using a few kind of tame terrorists. That's what I can remember.  I don't know anything like the R7 000.

MR VISSER: Did you know about the theft of a kombi from trade union members who were on their way to Harare?

MR ERASMUS: No I don't know anything about that.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus you know a person by the name of General Johan Coetzee, later he became Commissioner of Police.

MR ERASMUS: I know him, yes.

MR VISSER: It's been alleged on page 49, Mr Chairman volume 1 page 49,  it's alleged that this Johan Coetzee, General Johan Coetzee visited Kondile in Jeffrey's Bay.  I want to ask you - do you know of such a visit to Kondile by Johan Coetzee?

MR ERASMUS: No.

MR VISSER: Johan Coetzee was he attached or associated with the Eastern Cape?

MR ERASMUS: No, not at all.

MR VISSER: Was he at that stage head of the security branch?

MR ERASMUS: I think so, yes.

MR VISSER: And as the head of the security branch if he would have visited your division would it have been kept a secret for you?

MR ERASMUS: No, not at all.

MR VISSER: On the contrary would you expect that they would contact you?

MR ERASMUS: Yes, they would have certainly contacted me.

MR VISSER: Yes, maybe I should just, while we are on this point, refer you to bundle 3 page 193 to 194 just to draw your attention to the affidavit by Petrus Johannes Coetzee.  I will take it no further in the evidence.

UNKNOWN: Pages, number.

CHAIRPERSON: 193, 194.

MR VISSER: 193 Mr Chairman to 194, that is General Johan Coetzee.
	Now regarding your knowledge Mr Erasmus, Mr du Plessis and van Rensburg left and you accepted that Mr Kondile was to be eliminated.

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You have already said that you had no further knowledge of how this plan would be executed.

MR ERASMUS: Not at all.

MR VISSER: Either the one or the other or both of them, du Plessis or van Rensburg, did either of them report back to you later on?

MR ERASMUS: I can remember that Mr van Rensburg phoned me from somewhere and reported that the task had been completed.

MR VISSER: Under that you understood that it had been completed?

MR ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And Mr Erasmus if I ask you today, you as a person and you've told us where you were born, how you grew up, what your experiences were, how do you feel today about that which you became involved in during the struggle or the war of the past between liberation fighters and the State structures, how do you feel today as a person about these things that had happened?