Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman, thank you.  Visser on record.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Just tell us Mr Makhubalo, is the intention with your evidence here, to support the applications for amnesty of Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai?

INTERPRETER: The headphones for the applicants are not working.

MR VISSER: The headphones for whom?  Mr Makhubalo, can I make a suggestion.  Just push the plug at the bottom of your, just push it in.  He can't hear me Mr Chairman.  Can you hear me now?

INTERPRETER: He doesn't hear the interpretation, he hears the speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: Will the Interpreter please speak to him and see if he can hear the Interpreter.

INTERPRETER: No, he doesn't hear.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, I am able to hear now.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, I will repeat my question to you.  Is the purpose of your evidence here to support the applications for amnesty of Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: No, that is not correct.

MR VISSER: Do you not believe that if they are able to obtain amnesty, that you would be placed in a better position to obtain reparation?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I want to explain to the Committee that what is my intention to be here, is that I want to know the truth and tell the truth that I was tortured and assaulted.

MR VISSER: All right.  I understood you yesterday to say that you were arrested on many occasions and taken to Fountains building of the Security Branch, is that correct?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is true.

MR VISSER: Can you roughly give us an idea of how many times you were arrested and taken to that building?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said many times and I am not able to remember how many times.

MR VISSER: Roughly would it have been more than six times?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is more than that.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Were you, when you were arrested on each occasion, were you handcuffed?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: At times I would be handcuffed, and at times I would not be handcuffed.

MR VISSER: Were you taken to the 5th floor of that building every time?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was taken to Fountain building, I don't know which floor I was taken to.

MR VISSER: Mr Makhubalo, you told us here yesterday that you were taken to the office of Mr Mamome, do you remember that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: On which floor is that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I don't know that sir.

MR VISSER: Was that the first time that you ever went to that office?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I don't know sir.

MR VISSER: Is there any specific reason why you can't help us with the floors, Mr Makhubalo, where you were taken more than six times?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I hated that place, and I am still hating that place today.

MR VISSER: All right.  On the occasions, the other occasions, the six times, more than six times that you spoke about, when you went there were you assaulted or tortured?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you give us information about that?  When did it happen, what was it about?  Who tortured you and why?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said when I started speaking, that it is in many times being taken to that place and secondly I am not able to remember the people who took roles in so many times.  I am not able to remember those people, the perpetrators.

MR VISSER: I see.  All right.  You see because it is my impression of your evidence yesterday, that you were assaulted or tortured if you wish, only on one occasion on two days.  Am I right with that impression?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I don't know as to whether you want me to tell you that you are telling a lie because I said I had been assaulted there many times.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, I didn't understand your answer.  Who is telling a lie?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: The opposite of the truth is a lie.  I said I were there many times and in those instances, I was assaulted.

MR VISSER: But you can't tell us by whom, when it happened or why it happened.  You can't tell  us that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I will tell you the reasons why it happened.  Some of the names I mentioned yesterday which are on your table.

MR VISSER: Is that your answer?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: All right, perhaps somebody understands it.  I put to you again Mr Makhubalo, yesterday you told this Committee of an assault or a torture on you, perpetrated on you on one occasion and that is when you came with 18 others from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein and that assault or torture perpetrated on you, took place on two days, two consecutive days.  Am I right in saying that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: You are not telling the truth.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, in fairness to the applicant, I understood him to say that he had been assaulted on that occasion.  I don't understand the scope of my honoured colleague's question to him.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, could I ask my learned friend to repeat because I was listening to the translation and it is clear to me that a lot has been left out.  I would like to listen to the Afrikaans, if he could just repeat what he is saying, please.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear you now, Mr Visser.

ADV DE JAGER: I think you switched to Afrikaans, and you didn't switch down the Afrikaans channel when you spoke about addressing, but carry on now.  I think we will be able to hear you now.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, my objection is that I get the impression from the evidence of the witness, that on the occasion when he testified on this particular incident, when he and 18 other people were arrested at Ladybrand, that for three consecutive days, he was assaulted.
	And the statement made by my honoured friend, says that it was two consecutive days and that is then the objection to the question.

MR VISSER: May I reply Mr Chairman.  My learned friend is wrong with all due respect.  Clearly the evidence that he was taken there on four days, consecutive days, he was assaulted on the first and the second day.  He gave no evidence whatsoever about what happened on the third, and he said on the fourth day he was taken to hospital.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairperson, I specifically recall asking that after the third day, what was the condition of the witness and he pertinently told us that his face was swollen.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps I could assist.  My notes is I was assaulted in one office, torturing for the whole day, went out in the dark, taken to Heidedal.  On the third day, same routine, I could not speak, could not eat.  Thereafter back to Heidedal police office.  On the fourth day, round about eleven o'clock at night I met particular Doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: That is my note also.

MR VISSER: We accept that and we withdraw the question, Mr Chairman.  May I then rephrase it to you.  Is it your evidence that only on one occasion were you arrested or tortured, on three consecutive days?

MR STANDER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, I have a problem.  The Interpreter is just speaking to me, he cannot follow.  I would just like to be given a moment to sort it out.
	Would you please bear with us, Mr Chairman?   Thank you Mr Chairperson, I apologise, it was a problem with the interpreting service, we sorted it out.

MR VISSER: May I continue, Mr Chairman, thank you.  I just put it to you Mr Makhubalo, that on your evidence as it stands before this Committee, you were assaulted once at the building where the Security Branch offices were, at Fountain Street on one occasion on three consecutive days.  Do you agree with that?

CHAIRPERSON: How can you put that if he has just told us he was assaulted on many occasions?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I have given him the opportunity to tell us about it, and he says he can't.

MR STANDER: With the greatest respect, he has pertinently told us that he cannot recall every particular instance of who assaulted him, but he was assaulted on each occasion that he was taken to that place.