Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is correct.  I will take one example.  In Malukazi for instance, what we found in the process of arming our own people for purposes of self defence, is that where you allow people to buy arms on their own, as cadres of MK we had no access to those weapons, you cannot actually control those weapons.
	That was the danger that I have noticed with the Self Defence Units, where people procure arms on their own, there were a number of them.  People were actually even buying weapons, from their enemies, from the IFP.
	We knew for instance at kwaMashu hostel, a lot of firearms that were actually given to IFP people, but they started selling those firearms.  Our own people organised themselves, they go and buy from those people.
	But our main concern in that kind of activity, you have no control.  You can only control the weapons that you actually put into the hand of a person, that you know, so and so you are responsible for this weapon.
	In cases where voluntary people on their own, like in Malukazi for instance, there was a lot of infighting, people used weapons for various reasons, either for robberies or whatever, because there is no actual control.
	But what as the ANC did, we went and even I as a political leadership, go into that public platform, to educate people as to what Self Defence Units is all about and also try through our own comrades as (indistinct) level, try and (indistinct) situation if we can actually get hold of those weapons, disarm those elements, because they were not serving, because of the (indistinct) at the end of the day.

MS THABETE: During the hearings, some people who would call themselves SDU members, would give reasons for let's say killing or committing certain acts, they would give reasons for committing such acts and say that I am an ANC member and I shot so and so because he was an IFP member.
	In educating your people, what did you educate them about, the contents?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, let me look into the last question.  On this question of members of SDU killing IFP elements, whatever, what I would have said, I would have loved to hear from the IFP itself, giving us a profile of those people that had been killed in those areas.
	In most of those, you will find that most of the people that were eliminated, were actually involved in violence against the people.  When people take up arms and defend themselves, then all of a sudden they say the ANC has been responsible for so many members of the IFP.  Let them give us profiles of those people.

MR LAX: You haven't actually answered her question.  The second part was, how did you try and train your members and in terms of political education, in terms of accountability to ensure that they just didn't go off half cocked?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, we had conferences, ANC conferences, MK was represented there.  That is one.
	Two, we had our own conferences as MK in the region, we have had a number of them, where we have called all our own comrades that were involved in anything, so long as they are MK, they are coming.
	And also certain elements within the so-called Self Defence Units, to participate so that they hear the perspective that we are putting forward as ANC, as a political organisation.  We took ourselves as political soldiers, not just as soldiers, who just go in and do whatever.
	We are constantly under the leadership of the ANC.  Even in our training, whether it is political training, we insisted there is no self defence that may not be told the policies of the ANC, no member in actual fact, we even insisted people that are involved in such Defence Units, must actually be involved in community meetings, must be involved in conferences of the ANC.
	They can actually come up, some of them are coming up probably through branches of the ANC, into policy conferences of the ANC, just to ensure that there is continuity in terms of policy (indistinct) of those structures at the end of the day.

MS THABETE: What I actually wanted to know is, in you educating these communities on how to defend themselves, what did you actually tell them to do in defending themselves?  That is what I am interested in because we have had a lot of evidence from other SDU members, coming to us and saying I decided to kill somebody or I decided to injure somebody merely because he belonged to another political organisation,  or they would say I decided to retaliate.
	Did you allow retaliation?  What did you tell them to defend themselves and how to defend themselves?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Our own conception of an attack on our people was that no member of ANC Self Defence Unit will actually provoke a fighting, because of a barrier that Inkatha area that side and our people must cross, but should they be under attack, we have no problem to take responsibility for any person that was killed, in defence of our own people, and that is it.

MS THABETE: My last question, just to clarify something, I heard Dr Phillips referring to you as Mandla.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, that is my combat name.

MS THABETE: Are you also Mandla?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is my nom de plume, that came from exile in actual fact.

MS THABETE: No further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Do you have any re-examination Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Just one brief question.  The notion of a preemptive strike, what would your attitude be in regard to that?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Militarily, when you talk about preemptive strike it is that you then hear of an incident or a possibility of an attack and then you move elements into the area with the aim of surprising and also neutralising that kind of thing.
	As I said before when I was answering our lady friend here, our own way of looking at self defence would be literally if our own communities are being attacked, then, but I wouldn't rule out a possibility of really there was a perceived threat, giving that the police were not doing anything in terms of protecting our own people.
	If there has been cases where our own people actually came up preemptive strikes against the so-called enemy at that time, then we will accept it and say it depends on the areas.
	We didn't like the principle of preemptive strikes, because it would actually lead to excesses which is not necessary, but if you could zero to an element in an area who you know is exactly is the one who is behind violence, who has killed so many people, why not?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask Mr Sithole?

MR SIBANYONI: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, just one question and it arises out of some of the previous applications we have heard which involved and entailed SDU members, or people who called themselves SDU's, some may not have been, but various kinds of training were offered.  Some of them described the training they received and in particular one person spoke about being trained in the Transkei.
	Could you just elaborate a little bit on that for us please?