Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: The bus was used by members of the community generally.  This witness and the other applicant say as far as they are concerned this kombi was used mainly to convey ANC people.  You've got a conflict of evidence on that point.  Now what is it that you want to put to him?

MR WILLS: Yes, I will put that to him Mr Chairperson.  I put it to you simply Mr Ndlovu that your version about this kombi being a vehicle that was used to transport ANC people is in fact ...(indistinct), it's not true?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Do you say this because I did not mention it?  If that is the case, please note that you cannot put a donkey and a same kraal.  This space here was for something that I had said in that space.  I would not have put something else there.

MR WILLS: When you were attacked by, on the numerous occasions you refer to by the ANC people, were those people women that attacked you?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: No.  Those were young boys like me.

MR WILLS: So when you saw that the people that you were shooting in the bus were women, why did you continue?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Let me explain that.  People fled Mboyi to other places.  When they came back in order to attack Mboyi, they would go to eNkanyezini first to prepare themselves.  Woman or mothers in eNkanyezini were not supposed to allow fugitives to come and hide in the area, in their houses.  They were supposed to chase those people away.

MR WILLS: Mr Ndlovu, we are in fact in a position to put to you today, that not only were the people that were actually in the bus on that particular day not ANC supporters, they also had absolutely nothing to do with any killing of children.

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: That is true.  What is important is that we did not get the people we were looking for.  it was not important then who were the people we attacked then.  We however realise that what we did was wrong, that is why we are here today to say that we are sorry, we made a mistake.

MR WILLS: Did you attack the wrong bus?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: No the bus was right but the people inside were wrong people.  But we are still sorry, even if the bus was right.  We blame ourselves for that.  We had no right to disturb these people if they were ANC supporters.  What we had to disturb was their deeds.

MR WILLS: I want to concentrate for a little while on the issue of the procurement of firearms.

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Yes, but I still want to say something about the firearms.

MR WILLS: In the evidence before the Committee there were three firearms utilised in this attack, is that correct?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer the question please.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt.  Is this line of questioning really essential to the merits of this application?

CHAIRPERSON: No, just answer the questions.  Only three guns were used, please answer yes or no, that's all.

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: ... [no English translation]

MR WILLS: You say that you procured these guns or these guns were provided immediately before the attack or shortly before the attack by one, I think his name was Simon Zondi, is that correct?  Siphiwe Zondi?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Yes, Makhekhe is Siphiwe.

MR WILLS: Who had a nickname.  The nickname was the one that I can't pronounce.

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: ... [no English translation]

MR WILLS: Now, am I correct in remembering that all of these three guns came from that same source?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Yes.  We got them from his hands.

MR WILLS: Do you know where he got the guns from?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: ... [no English translation]

MR WILLS: What I find strange is, if they were his guns, why didn't he take them back after the attack?  Why did you keep them?

CHAIRPERSON: There might have been all kinds of reasons, for security purposes, he might have felt unsafe having the guns with him.  What has that got to do with the issues really?

MR WILLS: I'm sorry Mr Chairperson, possibly I've got a different understanding and with respect I stand to be corrected but my understanding of the term "full disclosure" is probably more narrow than it appears to me than what the Committee Members are questioning me around.  My understanding is and I say with the greatest respect, please correct me if I am wrong.
	If somebody comes to this Committee and even on certain issues which possibly are material but are not absolutely essential to the issue of amnesty, the evidence is blatantly incorrect.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if the man says that, I was approached by two chaps, that this is what they wanted to do, I agree with it.  One of them supplied us with the three guns which we used.  After the event I was given those guns to conceal.  Now that is as far as I am concerned sufficient information on that issue.  Now what is it, I don't understand what is it that they have not disclosed which is material?

MR WILLS: Yes.  Mr Chairperson what I'm investigating is that it is my view that the evidence as regards how these guns came and went is not in fact the truth of the matter and I am investigating that through cross examination.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, if you know what the truth is then you can put the question to him.  How are you to know what the truth is when the man who supplied the guns has died?

MR WILLS: I am actually going to put something to him in that regard and I'm building up to that.

CHAIRPERSON: If you have information with those light on it, put it to him.

MR WILLS: Mr Ndlovu do you know how Mr Siphiwe Zondi did die?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: i did hear that Siphiwe died.

MR WILLS: Is it correct that there is a certain person by the name of Mr Bernard Mkhize who is presently awaiting trial in regard to this matter?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: No.  I do not know.  What I know is that Makhekhe attacked Mkhize's house and that is where he got killed.

MR WILLS: If you could just bear with me for 30 seconds, thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairperson that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink are there any questions you wish to put.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, just one from the point of view of clarity.
	Mr Ndlovu, during the course of your evidence you mentioned that a close relative called Mtombela with whom you stayed?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Yes.

MR BRINK: Is that David Mtombela?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: No.  It is another ntombela who is our neighbour

MR BRINK: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

MR MALAN: Mr Ndlovu, this Mr Mokeke, was he an office bearer of Inkatha or an SPU or anything?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: He was initially staying in Maqonggqo.  He then came to Mboyi after IFP structure had already been established there.  He therefore did not have any position in Mboyi.  I never hear that he was an SPU member.

MR MALAN: Mr Dladla gave evidence that you were also sprinkled with traditional medicine before you left for the attack.  Who did the sprinkling?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: The sprinkling was done by Makhekhe Zondi.

MR MALAN: The witness, Mr Mkhize that gave evidence yesterday, the owner of the taxi.  In the trial you said that you know him well, is that correct?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Yes.  I grew in front of him.

MR MALAN: Did you know that that kombi belonged to him?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: I knew.

MR MALAN: Do you know the  name of the driver that Mr Mkhize alleges was the driver in his absence Tulani Zemu?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Yes, I knew the driver.

MR MALAN: Was he often driving that vehicle?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: Because I had left iNkanyezini, I did not know what was then happening there.  I only heard stories about Nkanyezini from my co-members.  They have gone underground now because they are afraid, but they are still members of the IFP.

MR MALAN: Do you know Kepa?

NKANYISO WILFRED NDLOVU: His name is Qeda.  I know him.  i grew in front of him.  He was ny uncle's neighbour before we left Mboyi.