Special Hearings — Media Hearings — UNKNOWN

VIC MCPHERSON: I can't say much about that.  I believe they are going to subpoena me now for the London bomb, yes, and I don't want to comment on it at the moment.

MR LEWIN: That is the subject of your amnesty application?

VIC MCPHERSON: That is right, yes.

MR LEWIN: Okay, but could I just come back to the SABC?  I mean, you are painting a picture of a fairly cosy relationship between you as an official policeman and the SABC?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes, you see Mr Commissioner, what you must understand, in those years, I think, people were very much against violence and act of violence, well from any side, that was taking place in the country.	And we could walk into this building and you would always find somebody that had something to say about a bomb that went off, that they could hear it nearby going off and people killed and people maimed.	So it was different in a sense that you as a policeman, although they knew I was from the Security Branch, and although they knew what work I was involved in, in the sense of covert operations and although they saw some of my work in the newspapers and in other levels, I was still very much accepted here.	There was no feeling of animosity.  I could not feel it anywhere.  And, but I think it was the feeling of the people of that time.  And the same would have happened, say in the Pretoria News offices.  I could walk in there, get a cup of tea and everybody would accept you without really asking questions.	They never thought I was there to spy on them.  And they knew where they stood with me, I was very open.

MR LEWIN: So you didn't in fact in the SABC, need either agents or paid informants?

VIC MCPHERSON: Let me put it this way.  The majority of the people were for the South African Police.  So it is as you say that you still needed one person that you could send whenever you wanted to have him sent somewhere without having to complain, he's got something else to do.

MR LEWIN: And did the same apply at the Citizen?

VIC MCPHERSON: At the Citizen.

MR LEWIN: It did?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes.
M

MR LEWIN: Yes.

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes.

MR LEWIN: Just two more questions, Mr Chairman, if I may.  Mr McPherson, you talked about Olivia Forsyth.  At some stage there was a suggestion that she had been sent to Daisy Farm.  Can you tell us about that?

VIC MCPHERSON: How do you mean Daisy Farm?

MR LEWIN: Was she sent to Daisy Farm, what, did you know Daisy Farm?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes, it was our spy training farm.

MR LEWIN: Spy training farm?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes.

MR LEWIN: Was she ...

VIC MCPHERSON: She was there many, many times I mean.  She did her training there.  She used to visit it while she was still at Rhodes University.	And I don't, I can't understand the gist of the question.

MR LEWIN: I just have a connection between her and Daisy Farm.  Was she assessed?

VIC MCPHERSON: She was a Police Officer and she was under cover most of her police career time.  She underwent a proper Intelligence Officers' course of our farm and then she was sent into Africa.

MR LEWIN: Were any journalists trained there at all?  You say the spy training centre?

VIC MCPHERSON: Well, she did a journalist training, but then we sent her into Africa as a journalist.

MR LEWIN: Yes, but were there other journalists who trained there?

VIC MCPHERSON: Not that I know of.

MR LEWIN: Not that you knew of?

VIC MCPHERSON: No.  Not any of my people were trained there.

MR LEWIN: Thank you.  And the last question, you mentioned Emma Gilby, could I just ask do you know whether there was any link between Emma Gilby and another Emma, Emma Nicholls?

VIC MCPHERSON: No.

MR LEWIN: Nicholson?

VIC MCPHERSON: I don't know.

MR LEWIN: Or Fred Bridgeland?

VIC MCPHERSON: I know Bridgeland, but I do not know whether the two are connected.

MR LEWIN: Did you have dealings with Bridgeland?

VIC MCPHERSON: Once or twice.

MR LEWIN: On an official level, can I ask?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes, he came to see me officially.

MR LEWIN: So he was coming to you for stories?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes.  Yes, he came to me officially.

MR LEWIN: Have you read his book?

VIC MCPHERSON: No, not yet.

MR LEWIN: Would you say that you would have had anything to do with his book?

VIC MCPHERSON: No, definitely not.

MR LEWIN: In the same way as the Emma Gilby book?

VIC MCPHERSON: No, definitely not.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much Mr McPherson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr McPherson, I want to thank you for the evidence you have given.  For the detailed information you provided us with.  We really appreciate it.  Thank you very much and also to your legal representative.

VIC MCPHERSON: Thank you very much Mr Commissioner.
INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCE

CHAIRPERSON: Our next witness is Mr Craig Kotze.  Can I ask Mr Kotze to come forward please.  I am sorry, Mr Kotze, yes, I think they have explained to you, thank you for your patience.  Mr Mike Loewe, we are going to just have to adapt the programme a bit.	We are going to take the testimony of Mr Mike Loewe who needs to be excused as soon as he is done here.	Mr Loewe, good afternoon.

MIKE LOEWE: Good afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: And welcome to you.  Let's get right into it, let's administer the oath to you and then we go right into your testimony.

MIKE LOEWE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated Mr Loewe.  I am going to ask you, you have prepared a submission to us which is in our possession.	I am going to ask you to speak to that.  Over to you.