Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-15

MR DEHAL: And when you say you got back to look for a taxi to get back to Umfana Futi's house, I'm just trying to understand this, this is a taxi to the deceased's home, is it, From where you had just walked?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes the deceased's home, I wanted to report the matter to them.

MR DEHAL: And do you know how senior Mr Mbambo arrived at the scene?  Sorry, how it came about that he arrived at the scene?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No, I do not know that because it happened whilst I went to the market and while I was trying to get a taxi to go back to his home.

MR DEHAL: And do I understand you correctly that when you got back you saw Mr Mbambo approach you with the deceased already in his car and then you accompanied them and went to the hospital?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes, we went to hospital.

MR DEHAL: Just on a point of clarity, when you did get back to where Mr Mbambo was, you did not - or did you see him load the deceased in his car or was he already loaded in his car?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: How could I have seen him because it happened whilst I was at the market?  I only saw the deceased in Mr Mbambo's car.

MR DEHAL: So this part of your statement in paragraph 4 where you say
"I noticed Mr Mbambo loading the deceased into his private vehicle"
would be an error, would be a mistake?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No, it is not true.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, I'm looking at an English version, I don't know whether the Zulu version is the same but sorry, I see that your original statement is also in English.  When you signed your statement did you not see that this part of the statement being incorrect was contained therein?  It's on page 9 in the written transcript and page 10, paragraph 4 at the bottom.

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I do not know how to speak English.  I signed because I've spoken in Zulu but then I didn't read it because I can't even read, I didn't know what was written in English.

MR DEHAL: That's a fair explanation.   Do you know whether - I'm sorry before I ask that maybe I should ask this, when you last left the deceased after he was stabbed and went in the direction of Ultra City, where was the deceased's body in relation to the ground, in relation to Power School, in relation to the road you speak of?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: When I left there they were still stabbing him, it was closer to the Mtjali's kraal.

MR DEHAL: I know that you now say that when next you met Mr Mbambo the deceased was already in Mr Mbambo's vehicle.  Do you know whether the deceased was picked up by Mr Mbambo at the spot where you last saw him or was it on a ground?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by where the spot where you last saw him or was it on the ground?

MR DEHAL: The evidence thus far is that, from the previous witness, that the deceased's body was on the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR DEHAL: And my earlier question was to establish whether ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well was he standing when he was being stabbed or was he lying down, I don't know?

MR DEHAL: Which is why I've asked this question just to seek that clarity.

CHAIRPERSON: When these people were stabbing him was he lying down at that stage or was he standing up still?

MR SIBANYONI: I think by the ground you're referring to the sports field?

MR DEHAL: Yes indeed, sorry, thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: He is referring to the sports field, by the grounds, not necessarily ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well he hadn't put sports field to her.

MR DEHAL: Oh sorry, the word ground was loosely used until now so I thought they would better understand it that way?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well I also understood it to mean whether he was standing or whether he was lying on the ground?

MR DEHAL: Forgive me, thank you.
	I know that you say Mr Mbambo had the deceased's body in his vehicle at the time when you returned.  Can you tell whether Mr Mbambo had picked up the deceased's body from the sports field or from any other spot or do you know which spot he had picked him up from?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: My apology, I can't hear.  If they can change my ear sets?

MR PANDAY: Sorry Chairperson, before my learned friend rephrases or re-puts the question.  I think if my learned friend could rephrase the question by asking the witness does she know where Mr Mbambo picked up the body from.  That would less confuse the questioning to her and she would be in a better question to give an answer or not?  I think it's, according to her evidence, we then understand where the incident took place.  I think what my learned friend is trying to elicit as to where did Mr Mbambo pick up the body?

CHAIRPERSON: She quite clearly said she doesn't know.  She wasn't there.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.

MR DEHAL: Ms Luthuli, do you know how many stab wounds were inflicted on the body of the deceased?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I don't remember very well how many there were but I do remember one because I saw when he was stabbed right in the neck and then after that I ran away.

MR DEHAL: You point in the region of the throat, the one that you speak of?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes where I'm pointing.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, she's pointing at the thorax - sorry, the larynx.
	If it is suggested to you that the deceased was stabbed more than six times would you be able to dispute that?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No I wouldn't, no I wouldn't be able to dispute that.

MR DEHAL: When you travelled with Mr Mbambo and the deceased in Mr Mbambo's vehicle were you seated with the deceased at the back of the vehicle or with Mr Mbambo in front?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I was sitting with Mr Mbambo in front and at the back Umfana Futi's father was with Umfana Futi.

MR DEHAL: And do you know whether Mr Frederick Umagasi had arrived at the scene and spoke to the deceased before he was picked up by Mr Mbambo?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No, I don't have that knowledge because I wasn't present, it was the time when I was at the market.

MR DEHAL: Bear with me Mr Chairperson?
	When you met the deceased in Mr Mbambo's vehicle did you speak with him and was the deceased able to speak, was he conscious?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: There was no time to talk, I just got into the car and then we drove off to hospital, that's all.

MR DEHAL: And on the way, whilst you were driving, did the father of the deceased speak with the deceased?  Did you ever speak with the deceased?

CHAIRPERSON: She's sitting inside a bakkie with the driver, when the deceased is in the back of the bakkie, how could she speak to him?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I was in front.

CHAIRPERSON: You were in front?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I was in front and the driver was in front of the car, there's no situation where you find the driver at the back seat or at the back of the car.

MR DEHAL: Yes, I'm not getting funny with you, I just thought she might suggest a reason like the window between the front of the bakkie and the back could open and they spoke through it but in emergency situations like this I was hoping that she would elicit the answer.
	In your statement that I referred to earlier on page 10 and 11 of the bundle, the handwritten part of 8 and 9 of the bundle, in paragraph 3, the last sentence, the last line, you referred to the deceased as having had three stab wounds.  In fact, more correctly, you referred to the applicant as having proceeded to stab the deceased three times.  Do you remember that?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I said after he stabbed him once at the point where I've pointed, after that I ran away.

MR DEHAL: So this aspect relating to the applicant - sorry, to you having seen the applicant stab the deceased three times would be incorrect?  Would you agree?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Do you mean I stood there and I watched him stabbing him three times?  No, I got scared after he stabbed him once and I ran to the market.