Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

MR STEENKAMP: So it's only you and the applicant then as far as I know who told this Committee today that these members were in fact ANC members, no one else says this except yourself and the applicant.

MR MALAN: No, Mr Steenkamp, that is not correct.  This witness said that they were members of the ANC and that they were card carrying members.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry if I did not put it in correct - I'd rather put the question again.
	The problem I have is this, it's only you and the applicant, Mr de Ru, who told the Committee today, under oath, that the deceased were ANC members.  All the other people who knew the deceased, even the family and even the informant Mr de Ru used, denies that the deceased were ANC members.  Do you understand my question?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I do.

MR STEENKAMP: Now I'm asking you why is that the case?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I knew Joseph much longer than all of them, I met Joseph in 1983, so why would I say he had a card if he didn't have a card.  He had to survive in Sebokeng in all those times and it would not have happened if they were not members of the ANC, otherwise Inkatha or another one could have killed or otherwise I would not have been allowed there, I did not say they were involved but they were members of the ANC, they were members of the ANC.  I'm only talking about Joseph now.

MR STEENKAMP: Just stop with Joseph for a while, you said that Joseph specifically always told me that he does not get involved with politics.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes but that does not mean if we talk about politics - he said that because I'm white I do not want to get involved with politics, we do not talk politics, we do not talk murder, we do not talk robbery, we do not talk about those things because the politics in Sebokeng at that time was to kill and Inkatha was the biggest problem, I say that again.

MR MALAN: Can we just try and clarify a thing here Mr Steenkamp?   Ms de Lange, if Steenkamp asks you about politics and I hear the question, I'd say to be a member of a political party and to attend meetings, that's political involvement but when you talk about politics you also always mention murder and fighting?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: But that's what they told me, if they say to me that I was - they keep telling me that they were actively involved.  They were not actively involved.

MR STEENKAMP: But you yourself were not actively involved either?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I wasn't.

MR STEENKAMP: You were member of the party, you attended the meetings so for you was actively involved, it meant that you were involved in the fight in the townships?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes those are the people who fought guerilla warfare.

MR MALAN: Do you refer to that as politics and active and the fighting between the Inkatha Youth etc and the defending of the townships, as far as you're concerned that's politics?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Otherwise it only means being a member or a supporter of the ANC and you distinguish between that and being politically involved or active.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I distinguish between that.

MR MALAN: I think that's probably the misunderstanding.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll leave the question there.  Just one or two questions if you would allow me Mr Chairman?
	Do you know if the deceased were ever involved in political violence?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No never.

MR STEENKAMP: You see then you also heard that I asked the same question from Mr de Ru and Mr de Ru gave another answer?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I did hear that.

MR STEENKAMP: Why does your evidence differ from that of Mr de Ru?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Because Mr de Ru talked about six policemen who were killed and of that I do not know anything and I would have been aware of that.

MR STEENKAMP: Now if Mr de Ru says this is he telling a lie?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I do not know, maybe he's got other information that I don't known about, about that I do not know anything.

MR STEENKAMP: Ms de Lange, is it not true that this group that you knew so well was just an ordinary group, criminal group who went out to get financial benefit and were not involved in politics at all, is that not the reason or the way in which this group operated?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes, according to me there was no politics involved they just robbed.

MR STEENKAMP: Were they ever involved in any crimes like murder and robbery?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes maybe robberies because cars were robbed.

MR STEENKAMP: But never murder?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No never, not where I was involved.

MR STEENKAMP: Would you say that according to your knowledge and that is my last question, that Mr de Ru could have in any possibility have a case against these people?  Could he arrest them for any offence at that stage?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes he could have.

MR STEENKAMP: What offences?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: They had stolen weapons with them and a stolen vehicle and he could have arrested them for that.

MR STEENKAMP: And Mr de Ru knew about it?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes he knew about it.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you give an explanation why he never arrested them?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I do not know.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

MR MALAN: Ms de Lange, you say that Mr de Ru was aware of the fact that there were stolen weapons with them?  You also testified that at more than one opportunity you saw him and that you took weapons to him?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MALAN: For remuneration as part of the scheme, can you remember how many times you took weapons to him?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: The first weapon I took was an AK and a shotgun, a 765, a PPK, a Baby Brown and a 38 Special.

MR MALAN: So you're talking about six weapons that you took to him?  Did he give you money for that?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I did not receive anything.

MR MALAN: Why not?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: They said that they are waiting until the case was completed.  That is what the people are saying now.  We complained a lot because we said we want our remuneration and they said that this comes from the top and it's not them who can give us this money.

MR MALAN: So you never received anything up till today?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, never.

MR MALAN: Can you remember how many times you saw him?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Quite a few times because he came to the house.  We went to Fouche a lot and we complained with him about the remuneration and asked why don't we get our money?

MR MALAN: Are you talking about three times or ten times or twenty times?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Every day.

MR MALAN: You saw him every day?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And he never talked to you about any activities?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Chris?

MR MALAN: No, did I talk about Fouche?  Mr de Ru?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No I didn't see Mr Roux that often.

MR MALAN: How often did you see Mr de Ru?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Only when I phoned him to come to my house or when we went to his house or to the police station.  Let's say about five times.

MR MALAN: Now the weapons that you handed in, who did you give this to?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Some of the weapons I gave to De Ru directly and the others were given to Fouche to give to De Ru.

MR MALAN: Did you live in Sebokeng with Joseph since 1983?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I did stay there for a while.

MR MALAN: For a while?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes I would say for about six months.

MR MALAN: What did you do then?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: We had a model school.

MR MALAN: In 1991, 1992?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And today?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Today I'm working at the municipality.

MR MALAN: I would just like to get an idea of your political involvement.  You said you were an ANC member, you joined them, you attended meetings and you say that you were MK.  Now that confuses me and the applicant's advocate.  Can you tell me, how did you join MK?