Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR VISSER: That is the point I am trying to make Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we have no further evidence to lead from this witness, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, Rossouw on record.  Mr Rosslee, you have testified that you have not recollection that you were present when Mr Bhila was transferred from one group of people, to another, the so-called interception, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR ROUSSOUW: At that time, can you remember whom you were travelling with?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I can't Mr Chairman.

MR ROUSSOUW: You won't be able to say whether you travelled with Mr McCarter and Mr Bosch?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I wouldn't be able to.

MR ROUSSOUW: In another vehicle perhaps?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No idea.

MR ROUSSOUW: I am trying to find out, because you have heard that Mr Bosch's evidence was that he also can't remember that aspect.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.  I just - I don't remember meeting another vehicle or being with when Mr Bhila was picked up or handed over or anything like that.  I don't remember any aspect of that.

MR ROUSSOUW: Can you recall whether you arrived at the shooting range with Mr Bhila or did he arrive at a later stage?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Right now, if my recollection is correct, Mr Bhila arrived later.

MR ROUSSOUW: So it is possible that there were more than one vehicle, that people were travelling in different vehicles?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is possible.

MR ROUSSOUW: Now, I would like to have you assistance in trying to establish why you similar to Mr Bosch, had the recollection that both Mr Lembede and Mr Mhieza was present throughout the operation.  I have heard your explanation that you have also made the inference because they were working together, closely together in Natal, and that is why you have also linked them in your affidavit, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct, and that is the only explanation I have at this stage Mr Chairman.

MR ROUSSOUW: Yesterday you have heard Mr Bosch was also cross-examined on this point, and he also gave the same testimony that these two people worked closely together and that might be a reason, but he also stated that in his mind, his recollection, his independent recollection, was that they were both present.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot say the same now Mr Chairman, I cannot clearly recollect that Mhieza was there.

MR ROUSSOUW: What do you mean by saying you cannot clearly recollect that Mhieza was?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I do not remember as I am sitting here now, that Mhieza was present there.

MR ROUSSOUW: All right.  Let me then ask you about the  - when your statement was taken down, Exhibit B, by Mr Holmes, you have testified that you were confronted please help me, I might be wrong, I am not sure about this, you were confronted with the statement of Mr Bosch.  Was that your testimony?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR ROUSSOUW: Were you shown Mr Bosch's statement, the written statement?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, it was held out in front of me and said, we've already got a statement from Mr Bosch.

MR ROUSSOUW: Were you shown the paragraphs in it?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember actually reading the statement, no.

MR ROUSSOUW: Was it a written statement or a typed statement?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't remember.

MR ROUSSOUW: You see, why I am asking, I am trying to find out you know, the sequence in which the Investigating Unit of the Attorney General, went about its business, because and in all fairness to you, I am not sure and I don't have an instruction at this point, whether there was another statement or an earlier statement, but in bundle 1 Bhila, you will see an extract from a statement that Mr Bosch made to the Attorney General.
	You will find that on pages 8 - 10, this is the typed statement, which I assume would be a typed version of a written statement, but it is dated on page 10, 18 November 1996, whereas your statement is dated April 1996, 12 April 1996, that is some seven months earlier.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no explanation for that.  I just know that I was shown a statement by Mr Bosch, or allegedly by Mr Bosch at that time.

MR ROUSSOUW: There is no other explanation that you can give, I am trying to find out because it seems to me that in that respect your versions, were identical.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know.  Like I say, I was shown - or what was shown to me was a statement, apparently a statement by Mr Bosch and they said they've got this statement, I need to cooperate, whatever.

MR ROUSSOUW: Well, let me ask you this, did Mr Holmes  or anybody else perhaps put to you that this is what Mr Bosch said, not showed you a statement, but put it to you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I was shown a statement, one was held in front of me or held out, shown to me, and during the time that my statement was taken, there were things put to me that Mr Bosch says X, Y, Z, do you agree, do you disagree, whatever.

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you.  Then you have testified that - let's first go to the shooting range, you said that your recollection is that you did hold a braai there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR ROUSSOUW: You have heard the testimony and I am just putting it to you that Mr Bosch testified that he can't remember on a question what arrangements were made for lunch, he said he cannot remember, he thinks that somebody went to buy some cold drinks.  Can you remember that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I remember that statement of his, yes.

MR ROUSSOUW: Do you remember that somebody left to buy cold drinks?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Not specifically, no.

MR ROUSSOUW: Who made the arrangements to have a braai there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember.

MR ROUSSOUW: We know now that Mr Bosch, you have also confirmed that Mr Bosch was not present when the instruction came or the request from Mr Taylor, that is correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR ROUSSOUW: Thereafter, can you remember a discussion that you were part of, where a planning took place, specifically where Mr Bhila would be shot, who would do the shooting, what weapons would be used?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot specifically remember that discussion, or a discussion like that taking place.

MR ROUSSOUW: Would you agree with me that it would be likely that if such a discussion did take place, you would be present?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would have to say yes, Mr Chairman.

MR ROUSSOUW: You see Mr Bosch's testimony is that he can't remember such a discussion.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I think it is just unlikely that being a member of the team, he wouldn't be privy to a discussion like that.  I don't specifically remember a discussion like that, but if he is part of the team, I would say if there was a discussion like that, he would have been privy to that.

MR ROUSSOUW: Is it also not true that Mr Bosch was and his testimony was yesterday, that he was not working in this area.  He doesn't know, and he can't give a reason why he was specifically brought into this operation.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It is quite correct, Mr Bosch didn't work down here as often as Mr McCarter and I did.  I don't have an explanation for him being down here at that specific time.

MR ROUSSOUW: Did you have a discussion with him, not in a group, personally?  Did you have a discussion with him about the planned operation?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Not that I can recall Mr Chairman.

MR ROUSSOUW: So you didn't inform him at any time that Mr bila was going to be shot?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I said I cannot recall if I did or if I did not.  I just have no recollection of speaking to him about that.

MR ROUSSOUW: Are you then saying it is possible you might have spoken to him about that?