Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Now, it was put to you earlier on, by one of the members of the Committee I think, that your policy really was, if a school was attacked, you would attack the school.  If a church was attacked, you would attack a church and if you were asked for what was this attack in reprisal form, I don't think you ever answered that question?  I've no recollection of you answering it.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Mr Stanford...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before he answers, I don't think that's correct what was put.  It was regarding the question of pro-personality and he explained how he perceived pro-personality and actually he did not say that it was this one, particular one, was regarding any pro-personality.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: If I'm wrong in my phrasing then forgive me but the gist still remains that your policy was, which you definitely stated, that where a hospital was attacked you could attack another hospital and so on.  Is that not right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, once again Mr Stanford, we talked to you about that when my perception about pro-personality was being asked and then I answered and explained my perceptiveness as far as pro-personality is concerned, in my own perception it was - we didn't say - and we put it that we are generalising.  We didn't say that we are talking particularly about this Golf Club incident.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I wont pursue that one then.  I've studied your affidavit, Mr Xundu, in this very carefully indeed and your supporting documents and I see no indication of any remorse or regret at the fact that you not only picked the wrong target but of the indescribable damages that you did and which was occasioned by wrong information being supplied to you.  I see no kind of regret for that at all.
	Yes you do in paragraph 27, right at the end, you mention about you're sorry for the loss of lives but don't you think that in applying for amnesty you should express a sense of regret and a sense of real sorrow and not merely recite facts which don't touch or border on any feeling or regret that a mistake was made?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before - Mr Chairman I don't think it's a requirement for Application of Amnesty, that one?
It's not a requirement.

CHAIRPERSON: No.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: On what do you base your request for amnesty?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think the act is clear that there must full disclosure, there must be full disclosure in that it must coming from a recognised political organisation.  There are the aspects, but there's no question that he must show remorse or he must apologise or what.  That can be done separately but I cannot see that it should be, that should be a requirement here that because he has not put it there, so it does meet the requirements of the act.  That's not the case.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I'm fully aware of that Mr Chairman, I'm just trying to make my point.
	  The crux of the issue really is that you must concede in the overall that having made the mistake that contents of a large part of your affidavit and your application is incorrect and the Chairman pointed out to you certain parts of it.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: And then what do you want of me?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Must I repeat it?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You must concede that as a result of questions that have been put to you by me and by the Chairman, there are certain parts of your affidavit in your application which are not correct.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, Mr Stanford, you must understand one thing, I have come here to give full disclosure as well as to give my ...[inaudible] for the operation.  If you agree with it, you agree, if you disagree, you disagree.  I cannot, I cannot - I don't see any way that I can make you agree with me if you don't want to agree.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, the question that Mr Stanford is putting to you, sorry just listen carefully, the question Mr Stanford's putting to you is to say, do you concede that there are factual inaccuracies in your application and in your affidavit based on the questions which he and Judge Wilson put to you, that's what he's saying.  It's not a question of whether you can convince him of the rightness or wrongness of your application, so let's not get bogged down in that.  It's a simple matter of do you concede there are factual inaccuracies in your application and in your affidavit?  Yes or no, it's quite simple.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Are you aware that at the time of the attack in the bar there were a few members there and there were two black - two of our black playing members who were actually in the bar at the time?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I was not aware.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Are you still not aware?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: What are you trying to say, what you've just told me?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: That there were black members mixing with the white members in the bar at the time of the attack?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, let me believe your integrity.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Let me?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Let me believe in your integrity and say that I know from now because you are telling me the truth, if you are telling me the truth, if you are not, you are not.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I don't think it's a question - I'm putting it to you a factual a position - I asking whether you are aware?  You must say yes or no I'm not aware.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, his answer was that he wasn't aware and he now is aware - to him.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Thank you Mr Chairman, I can't be here tomorrow, I've got to go for an operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you need to be excused?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Yes, may I be excused from tomorrow's hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Xundu I'll just specifically start at the point it was at page 10 of your application - Amnesty Application, that's page 10 of the bundle.
	You have been asked questions regarding that portion paragraph (b) and you have indicated in this Committee that you received information that Mr Radie will be there and also when you were a caddie there and also that high ranking military officers will be there.  Is it true that because you heard that Mr Radie, who was a member of the National Party, a Member of the Parliament, if I'm not mistaken he was a Deputy Minister there, you came to the conclusion that this is a National Party gathering?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think that was the only point, I don't want to waste the time of the Committee.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you.  I just have a couple of points I need a lot of clarity on.
	Two point relating to personnel.  In that report on page 65 there's a comment that personnel was short, there was a shortage of personnel.  Can you just explain that, what were you talking 
about there and I want to follow that up just so that you know I'm tying it in with paragraph 12 on page 16.  If you just quickly look at paragraph 12 on page 16 you talk about "personnel was deployed approximately two months before".  So I'll ask another question in relation to that but I'll be tying the two in.  Personnel was short, or there was a shortage of personnel?