Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Because there were seven dead freedom fighters, so we claimed money for them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, you, in fact, paid head-money, because there were seven corpses?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were the askaris aware that there would be head-money in the event of there being of, in the event of people dying during the operation?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, that was a motivational mechanism to point out some of their former freedom fighter colleagues.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But were they aware, prior to this incident, that they would get head-money?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It was a general policy at Vlakplaas, it was not only for this specific case, every case that took place a certain amount of money was paid and he was aware of the fact when he arrived at Vlakplaas that he would work, be working be head-money.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, prior to this arrest, are you aware of Mbane having received head-money?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, he did receive his money.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Prior to this incident?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I cannot remember.  I know that thereafter he was also involved in successful operations where freedom fighters were caught or killed and he received money for this, but I cannot say whether he was in, which operations he was involved in before this.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, was it normal practice for Vlakplaas, also, to give head-money to people like Mr Mbelo who were part of the police unit?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It was also brought in later, because they did not want the Black policemen to become negative.  That is why they also gave them a bonus.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, why was Mr Mbelo, if you did not want to create some antagonism, why was he only paid R1 000,00?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Because he also infiltrated and he placed his life, his life was at stake and Colonel de Kock believed that if he also put his life at stake, that he would also get some money for the operation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why was he not paid R7 000,00 like the askaris?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot say.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you put through the motivation, did you not?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, all the telexes and encoded messages, I gave this to Colonel de Kock and he decided what the amount was to be and who was to receive what.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And his decision was really based on your motivation?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, all the encoded messages.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Bear with me, I just want to see if there is something that I have not left out.
	Now, at the meeting at Wingfield you gave instructions to your group that if their lives were in danger, they had to shoot to kill?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: What I did say was that, when we walked out there, we are not to endanger ourselves today, so that, it is not going to be easy.  I must have created the perception among them that we were not to fail.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But what words did you use?  I mean, according to Mr Mbelo, he says that you used the word "sweep", "take out", you had to take the insurgents out.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot recall my exact words. I might have created that impression, yes, that perception.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it customary for people in Vlakplaas to use convoluted terms instead of simple words like "arrest", I mean, if you cannot remember you could have said it?  Was it customary for you not to say "arrest the insurgents" or "kill the insurgents", but you used other words which were not that simple?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It was general terms among policemen, not only at Vlakplaas.  That when they went to the border they would also say "we will take them out" or "do them in".  It is a general, general terminology which was not only just used at Vlakplaas.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that meant to arrest, in your case?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If you take the word "take out" and "do in", that means to kill.  The Defence Force used a term "eliminate".  We always said that he was "done in" or "taken out" and we interpreted that as being killed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was Mr Odendal the person who gave instructions to the whole group at Wingfield on the third of March?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: He was the senior there who led the whole planning.

SISI KHAMPEPE: To your recollection, do you think he also used the same words?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I do not think so, because he was a uniformed man and we did not know one another.  It is not terms that you would use in front of strange people, only if one knew these people would you say we would "take them out" or "do them in".  These are terms that one would only use if one knew one another.

SISI KHAMPEPE: He was the one who gave instructions to the whole group, is it not so?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, he was in charge of the whole group.

SISI KHAMPEPE: To your recollection, what instructions did he give in respect of this operation?  What were individual members supposed to do?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: The idea of the whole group was to try to arrest these group, this group when they arrived there and if there was a shooting then each person would have to think for himself.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You hand picked a large number of the people who participated in this operation, that is the evidence you gave yesterday?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you had to select people who would be able to think on their feet, that is the evidence you gave?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you hand pick Mr Sterrenberg?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I would have told Mr Odendal to get people who know how to handle situations.  I met him, I would have phoned him or Mr Odendal would have phoned him.  I could not just have said you must come.  I would have told Mr Odendal you choose your people, but I would have said, for safety reasons, I know him, so I think that he should be chosen.  Murder and Robbery would have sent their people.  I would have said that we are looking for people who have worked in counter-insurgence actions or operations and who can think on their feet.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was this selection made of the group of police?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It might have been that I told this to the Commanding Officers on Friday or Sunday afternoon after the meeting, that we phone them to come in.  I cannot say exactly when.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are aware of the evidence that Mr Sterrenberg gave during the Weaver Trial that his intention at shooting one of the insurgents was not to arrest, but to kill?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, because that member was starting, was shooting at all the other members and it ended up in a fight and he did intend to go and shoot that man when that man started shooting on the others.  That is how I understood it later.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV MOTATA: I just want clarification on a few items and I will start off by following what my sister asked you, that your main objective was to effect arrest and we look at the events of the askaris who were being sent in to Guguletu to go and look for these people and identify them.  That took approximately four weeks, is that not so.  Did they give descriptions of these people they were meeting of and when they were giving you feedback?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, they gave me descriptions, which language they spoke and where they came from.

ADV MOTATA: So, you had an idea how they looked like?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I had a reasonable idea.

ADV MOTATA: Now, you said in your evidence that they were moving from place to place.  What I want clarification on is that every time the askaris came and gave a report, they could go back and find these people even though they were moving from place to place.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, the askaris had their ways of making contact.  They had their methods of making contact with these people.

ADV MOTATA: Was there no possibility of following these askaris to see where they lived, so that effects, arrests could be effected?