Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: Now okay so.

MR VALLY: I am told by my experts that Annexure J we agree that there should be an order as requested by Advocate Arendse.

CHAIRPERSON: General Knobel I am sure Mr Toyeli or you haven't got any objections?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No objection Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I would expect that you have no objection as well. You are not instructed. Mr Vally you have a ruling as requested as far as that goes. Now as far as the rest goes is it your request that you need to study the documents? You are quite happy for them not to be released at this stage until between you and Mr Arendse you have clarified which can and which cannot be under Category 2? You are not necessarily saying you are accept he say so that they all fall under Category 2?

MR VALLY: That is correct Mr Chairperson with the exception of Annexure J that has been referred to for which I think you have already got.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes there is a ruling in that relation. Mr Arendse does that assist you?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We have to apologise to the members of the media for the way in which this has to take place. You all understand that this was an arrangement in terms of which we have been able to be where we are. We can assure you that as soon as there are agreements again between Mr Vally and Mr Arendse on the basis of which certain documents must be made available to the media those would be made available without ado. Mr Vally, Mr Chaskalson?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair. General Knobel where we had left off when we were questioning you prior to you reading your statement into the record is the whole issue of the extent of your knowledge when it came to your attention that there were certain irregularities and what you did about that. Now if I recall correctly and you refer to it in your statement as well, that Dr Lourens in fact brought to your attention that his company or individuals in his company, a front company SRD were making poison applicators in the form of screwdrivers, in the form of walking sticks which shot pellets as well as umbrellas which shot pellets. This was brought to your attention I believe in early 1993?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir I am sorry you are incorrect. It was brought to my attention in October 1993. And you are further also incorrect in again stating that it was a front company. I have said to you that it was not a front company. I certainly didn't realise it was if you are saying it was. And furthermore he did not say that other members of that company had been involved in this. He said that he was requested, he was instructed by Dr Basson to make certain gadgets. That is what he said to me.

MR VALLY: Let's just go through the three issues you have taken umbrage at. Firstly you say it is October 1994 fine.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No I did not Sir.

MR VALLY: 1993. I beg your pardon. October 1993?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: That he told you about this issue?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: You confirm in your statement that your reaction to him was; "Well that is another project and not my project."

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I didn't use words to that effect. I said: "I am sorry I don't know about it and I don't want to know about it." It had nothing to do with the Project Coast as far as I was concerned.

MR VALLY: Alright so you didn't know about it and you didn't want to know about it?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Fine. Thirdly you are saying that SRD and I am talking SRD now - is not a front company?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally I tried to explain that to you last week.

MR VALLY: No fair enough. I just want you to tell me yes or no.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I was under the impression it was a private company. I reported throughout to everybody that I reported on this project that it was a private company and I have also reported that Protechnic that emerged out of it was a private company.

MR VALLY: Is your position still that SRD was a private company?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes Sir.

MR VALLY: Fine. Well (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But let me understand this. You are not therefore General, are you saying you are stating it authoritatively that it was not a front company? Or are you saying your impressions of the way in which it was functioning and the way you understood it are of a nature that you cannot - you as a person cannot classify it as a front company?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Thank you Mr Chairman you have helped me a lot. I mean exactly what you have described in the second statement that you made thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Thank you. You also advised us that you raised this issue with the co-ordinating committee is that correct?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I know that I said that in my testimony last week but I want to just explain that. I have explained to you this morning that General Liebenberg was retiring at the end of October. I addressed this issue with him personally. I believed that the chief of staff finance was present. It was at a meeting not an official meeting of the co-ordinating committee but those were both members of the co-ordinating committee that had met about the whole Croatian issue. And that is why I said it was brought to the attention of the co-ordinating committee. Well if I can qualify that. It did not mean that a special meeting was called where all the other members that had sitting on the co-ordinating committee was involved. But I certainly mentioned it to General Liebenberg as I testified this morning without mentioning that he was personally implicated. I wanted to see what reaction I would get. I certainly mentioned it later on also to General Meiring, who was also a member of the co-ordinating committee.  At that opportunity after I spoke to Dr Jan Lourens which was in October I spoke to General Liebenberg discussing the Croatian problem and just before he retired and I confronted him with that information.

MR VALLY: Now let me understand this. You have a report from a person who you believed worked for a private company and he told us it was a front company. But he used to work for a front company before he transferred to SRD. That is Dr Jan Lourens. You are aware of that. Before he moved to SRD he was working for Delta G.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes I believe that is correct.

MR VALLY: That is right and Delta G was a front company?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: Fine. He tells you that he is manufacturing applicators for poison, for toxins at the request of Dr Wouter Basson. The project officer of Project Jotta which is specifically tasked into looking at possible toxins. Especially biological toxins which could be used in chemical and biological warfare. In retrospect don't you think your view that this has nothing to do with Project Jotta and therefore I am not interested is not a valid one?