Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: Now, Mr Nosenga, I'm going to put the contents of this application to you, on page 11 and further.  The form has now been shown to you by Ms Tanzer - and with your permission, Chair, may she page through the pages, pages 11 up until 13 and up until the place where his name is - now you see that is now being shown to you, do you deny that this document was signed by you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot see this properly.

MR LOWIES: Sorry yes, let me give you a better one.  There's a better copy available, Sir.  We had a problem yesterday as well.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I can see the signature, it is possible that I signed here.

MR LOWIES: Let's examine the contents ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, just tell us, is that your signature or don't you know who signed there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did state that, I did indicate where my signature was appended.  I do not think that was mine.  I would just like to know where that statement was taken.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we will come to the, we will probably come to the statement, but all we want to find out is, did you sign the document there.  You see on its face this documents indicates again that it was signed at Leeukop Prison I think, yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that I signed it at Leeukop.  I would like to know who took this statement because there was one that was signed and one that was unsigned.  Was this statement also taken at Leeukop?

CHAIRPERSON: Well on its face that is what it indicates.  But all I want to find out at this stage is, is the signature above the name "Deponent" at page 13, your signature.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR LOWIES: I'm indebted to you, Chair.
	Now Mr Nosenga, I'm going to put the contents thereof to you and find out whether you agree with the correctness thereof.  Unfortunately I'll have to ask you to turn to page 13 again, because it appears from this that a certain Peter Daniel Magesa was the Commissioner of Oaths who attested to this ...

MR LAX: On the face of it, it says Magesa Daniel Peter.

MR LOWIES: It could be.

MR LAX: Whichever way around, I don't know.

MR LOWIES: I will rephrase it as such, that a certain Magesa Daniel Peter - ja, Peter could be a surname, attested to this.  Do you know this person, either by the name of Magesa Daniel Peter, or Peter Daniel Magesa or Magesa or Peter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not, I'm hearing it for the first time.

MR LOWIES: Now it states  here that your date of birth is the 4th of June 1973, it can't be.  Sorry, Chair, to assist you, this is page 11, paragraph 5.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have stated before that I do not know when I was born.

MR LOWIES: And it also states here in paragraph 3, that you reside at Newman, spelt N-E-W-M-A-N, Sebokeng, Everton, Sebokeng.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I resided at 671, Newman Road in Everton.

MR LOWIES: Now in this statement you were requested, in paragraph 9, to supply particulars of any acts or omissions which was committed in the furtherance of the political objective, and you were requested to supply detail.  You supplied the following detail
"We were sent by Baba Mtwana Zulu, member of the IFP, to go and assassinate ANC members"
Now my question is, do you know a person by the name of Baba Mtwana Zulu? - Baby.  It's not clear.

MR LAX: He's been calling you Baba all day.

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct) Baba.  I'm sorry, Chair.  It makes sense to me now.  I retract the question.
	Now can you recall that on a second occasion you filled in or you were required to give particulars to a person to fill in a form and that you supplied these particulars?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say, Sir, that I am uneducated, I could not have filled in a form.

MR LOWIES: However, is it not true that if you have a look at page 11, paragraph 9.A.2, that where it is stated
"I do not remember the date and month, but it was in 1993, early"
... that you could not have committed anything wrong there, on your version, as you have given it to the hearing here.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat the question.

MR LOWIES: It is clear from the date, 1993, that on your version here you could not have committed anything in 1993, because you say everything happened in 1992.

MS TANZER: With respect, Chair, he has claimed that, he hasn't claimed ownership to this document or having signed this document or given in formation relating to this document, so by referring to this as his information is misleading the Chair and himself, the applicant.

MR LOWIES: But it's not put to him that he supplied ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But I think in questioning him you've got to bear in mind that ...(intervention)

MR LOWIES: I will rephrase it, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that the information that may be here may coincide with what happened, but he doesn't say that.  He denies this application.

MR LOWIES: I see.  To put it differently, did you tell anybody that you committed acts at Sebokeng, Zone 12, in 1993?   (2) and (3) read together, Chair.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember well.

MR LOWIES: Did you tell anybody as indicated on page 12, paragraph 4, that the nature and particulars that you supplied was to kill supporters of the ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What incident are you referring to, the Sebokeng or the Boipatong incident?

MR LOWIES: On the fact of this document it refers to Zone 12, Sebokeng.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did state that Mtwana ordered us to kill ANC comrades in Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: Did you state to anybody that quite a number of people died in the incident at Sebokeng, Zone 12?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did say so.

MR LOWIES: Very important too is the next paragraph
"I do not know the names of the victims, I only saw photos"
Now the photos is important, the fact that you saw photos.  Did you mention to anybody that you're not sure who the victims are and that you only know through photos that you killed at Sebokeng, Zone 12?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, I do not know the identity of the people who were killed, I just saw the photos which were shown to me.

MR LOWIES: Yes, but to whom did you say this?  The important thing is not whether you said it, at this stage now, the question is to whom did you say it?
"... I only saw photos"
Can you recall?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall.

MR LOWIES: Then you said to this person who completed the form, on the face of it of course, is that
"Through investigation I'm confident that there's a way to locate the victims' addresses"
Did you say this to anybody when they requested you to fill in a form?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not understand you properly, can you repeat that?

MR LOWIES: Were you requested by anybody to give them information that may assist them in identifying the victims and in so doing stated to them the following, words to that effect of course
"Through investigation I'm confident that there's a way to locate the victims' addresses"

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Do you mean after I'd been convicted?

MR LOWIES: Well on the face of what I've read to you.  Sorry, you were already convicted at that stage.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did mention that.

MR LOWIES: Can you recall to whom you mentioned this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall.

MR LOWIES: Did you say to anybody when requested to state political objectives sought to be achieved, that the objectives were the following
"The objectives to achieve was to fight the communists and we were promised monies in every mission we were ordered"
I think that's what it meant, ordered.