Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: You are reminded that you are still under oath, do you understand?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, please proceed.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Just before I start the examination of this witness, I understood yesterday to make a copy of Exhibit TT, it was the second page, and I've made copies for the Committee.  I do not know which page it would be correct for at this stage.  I know the other pages in respect of this document was page 261 and 262.   Mr Chair, may I suggest that we attach it behind the previous register, which I believe was pages 261 and 262, maybe perhaps 262(a) or 261(1) for that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: This document will be referred to as page 262(a).

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, before Advocate van Wyk proceeds with his questioning, we seek clarity, Chairperson.  We have a list here of objectors that has handed - well, I mean we rode down the list of objectors on the first day of hearing because according to the legal representatives of the objectors, according to the statements that we have received from the objectors, the only three objectors who are objecting to the granting of amnesty with regard to the occurrences, on the fact of it, would be occurrences at Lancet Hall.  It's a Mr Chonco and two gentlemen, the Dlamini's, I mean the family of Mr Chonco and the Dlamini's, who say they were shot and injured at the entrance of Lancet Hall in Jeppe Street.
	For the sake of clarity we would want to know the interest Advocate van Wyk has because according to his list the people that he represents refer to being injured or shot at, at the corner of De Villiers and King George, the Shell House incident, and not the Lancet Hall incident.  In fact, it relates to all the legal representatives here, unless one of them can tell us that he represents Dr van Wyk, who mentions Dlamini and - the Dlamini's, we would want to know which legal representatives represent which objectors in - with specific reference to which occurrence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I intended raising that yesterday.  I wasn't clear in my mind, and I would like us to clear this picture up.  You understand that ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, perhaps I can correct, I see now that Mr P A van Wyk does represent Christine Chonco, but yesterday Mr Pretorius was about to start cross-examining, and he represents ...(inaudible), I mean according to this list.

CHAIRPERSON: It is quite clear that only the party representing the interested parties will be entitled to have a say in this matter.  Mr van Wyk, are you appearing on behalf of an interested party in connection with this application?

MR VAN WYK: As the Chairman pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: And who is that?

MR VAN WYK: Mrs Chonco, the mother of the deceased.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Is that Christine Nesi Chonco?

MR VAN WYK: That is correct, Justice Ngcobo.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, and then Mr Pretorius.

MR PRETORIUS: Honourable Justice Ngcobo, besides the list that is in possession of the Committee at this stage....

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: There is also one of the sons of Mr Chonco present here, Mr Jeffrey Chonco, which we've ..(intervention)

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Jeffrey who?

MR PRETORIUS: Chonco, that's the son of the deceased.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Chonco, yes, very well.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, and besides that I represent one of the Dlamini's as well.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Okay, is that Philemon Dlamini?

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed, sir.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, in regard to the Lancet Hall matter?

MR PRETORIUS: In regard to the Lancet Hall matter.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes, very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the interest of the son different from the interest of the mother?

MR PRETORIUS: No, not, Mr Chairman, but I'm - if I may just point out what the position is in this regard, is that in as far as the civil actions were referred to, as well as in regard to the inquest, Mr van Wyk and I at all times acted together and as to spread the workload he studies certain documents and I did certain documents, so ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well I understand that at the inquest that was done, but I'm talking about for present purposes.

MR PRETORIUS: For present purposes that was done as well, just to spread the workload.

CHAIRPERSON: But if there's not conflict of interest between the Chonco's I think that let's try and see if we can't contain proceedings by having just one set of cross-examination.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, we do undertake that we will not repeat any questions.  Mr van Wyk will do the main questioning in this regard, with your permission, and if there's anything that I want to raise, it will be brief thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR PRETORIUS: As it pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: They may proceed.

JUDGE NGCOBO: In the interest for ...(indistinct) Mr Dorfling.

MR DORFLING: I've got no specific interest in this matter.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: I also do not have any.

MR HUMAN: Me as well.

MR LAX: Could I just have the name of the son again please, just for my own benefit.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Jeffrey Chonco.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr van Wyk?

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Simelane, can you tell the Committee, on that specific day, who issued the firearm to you.  I'm specifically referring to the shotgun.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: The shotgun that I had that day had been issued at the office, that is the office of the guards of the African National Congress.  I don't remember the name of the person who was actually issuing out the guns.

MR VAN WYK: Was a register kept in respect of arms and ammunition being issued?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I did not write it down.

MR VAN WYK: Do you know whether the person who issued it wrote it down?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I don't have any clarity.

MR VAN WYK: You say you don't have clarity, do you mean you have no recollection, or independent picture of the day that you received the firearm?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, wait, wait, he has no picture of the day, or is it in connection with the issue of the firearm?

MR VAN WYK: In respect of the issuing of the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I think I can explain this briefly, I don't remember as to who actually gave me the firearm, that's what I'm explaining.

MR VAN WYK: Do you recall how many rounds were issued to you?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I had six bullets or six rounds.

MR VAN WYK: How many did you use on that day?

MR LAX: Sorry I didn't hear the question.

MR VAN WYK: I'm sorry, how many did you use on that day?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I used only one.

MR VAN WYK: What happened to the other five rounds?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I returned them the following day when I was returning the shotgun.

MR VAN WYK: To whom did you return it?

MR LAX: Mr van Wyk, I'm sorry to cut you short, can you just wait a short second, there seems to be a slight delay when the person's finished translating and then they change the mechanism over so that your voice becomes clear.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Commissioner, sorry.  Do you recall to whom you returned the five rounds?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: No, I do not.

MR VAN WYK: Do you recall as from what time that morning you were in the basement at Lancet Hall?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I'm not sure as to what time I started, it was only in the morning, I think just after 08h00.

MR VAN WYK: Do you recall what time you left the basement on that specific day?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: The following day, but I don't remember the time.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, wait, the following day.  You're question was, what time he left the basement, isn't it, on that day?

MR VAN WYK: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You were in the basement, you've told us, what time did you leave the basement?