Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, exactly. But it is not made of what they have just said yesterday. It is an ordinary bank bag but it has been modified to make it large, in other words, to come through the head and it has got also a rope.  So the deceased was then instructed to put that bag over his head and then he must lie flat at the back seat so that he cannot see where we are going.  And then I kept on following Johan van Eyck until we reached Heidelberg Road, next to the City Deep where we went into the open veld, unused mine dump like.
	On our arrival there there was something like an old mine shaft, like which there was some bins on top.  They then said that the deceased must, Julius Khosa must bring the deceased there, under those bins.  As the deceased could not walk because his head was covered, Julius then helped the deceased to remove the bag off his head in order to lead him down that bush.
	On our arrival there, there was some ropes which seems to me, it seems it was familiar. Maybe to Van Eyck, because he know exactly where we are going to.  There was some concrete hooks which they make originally into this - there was some iron hooks which are made originally into these concrete bins.  He then took out some ropes and said to the deceased he must sit down.  Then he tied his legs.

UNKNOWN: It is already on record that the assault, that the deceased was tied up and the assault took place and the torturing.  Could you tell the Committee what were the members in particular Oosthuisen, Gerber and Van Eyck doing at the time when the deceased was being tortured?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: At the second scene, what I have just said, it was at the first scene, where we, according to them, were going to be disturbed by the member of public.

JUDGE WILSON: There was no evidence, was there, about torture at that scene?

UNKNOWN: Member of the Committee, I am leading the witness to the actual assault and torturing of the deceased at the second spot.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, at the second scene.

UNKNOWN: That is so.

JUDGE WILSON: That is not, he was talking about a different spot.

UNKNOWN: At the second spot, I asked him that.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: On arrival at the second spot, it seems also the spot was very well-known to the Mr Gerber and Van Eyck. I don't think Frans Oosthuisen knows exactly where we were going to, because all the time he was driving with me in that car.  So Mr Gerber and Johan van Eyck, it seems they knew the spot, because we get out of our vehicle and they start walking straight into the direction to the bush, into that direction where that tree was.  It seems like it has been blown down by the wind, it is a tall blue gum tree. So we arrived there ... (intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: You are now talking about Mr Gerber. When did he join you?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: On arrival, he arrived at the first scene. He was the person who instructed us that he warned us that we cannot do our - we cannot do these things there, since we are going to be disturbed by a member of the public, at that first scene.  He is the person who took us from the first scene to - he was the leader. He led us from the first scene to the second scene.
	So at the second scene they then, Mr Gerber came further, came with a bag with some extra ropes in also, it seemed like old telephone.  And then he instructed the deceased to sit down, tied his legs with a rope and used a piece of stone as the tree was very high, you know, to tie that stone to the rope and then throw it over the blue gum tree.  They did that.  They started hoisting the deceased upside down on that tree, and then after that they tied the rope on the tree.  And then further untied his belt and pulled his - because he was standing, by that time hanging upside down, they pulled his trousers up and took out his torturing machine.  Unless he was handcuffed, I mean handcuffed from behind and took out his torturing machine and started one rope on his finger and then the other piece of wire on his private parts.

UNKNOWN: Could you stop there.  What about his finger?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: One, which means that apparatus has got two wires.

UNKNOWN: Okay?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: He put one wire on the finger, the other wire on his private parts.

UNKNOWN: Oh.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: And they started turning that machine.  At first it seems the machine didn't want to work. They then said start fiddling with the machine until it start working, because I could see that the deceased was crying and starting jerking while hanging upside down and he was crying very badly.  And while he was doing that, it seems they were enjoying the thing because they were laughing.  (indistinct) other places, Kakamas, I don't know where Kakamas is in these other platteland dorpies, and then everybody was doing that thing, all three of them, but not Julius, not me and Julius.  Because by that time I start feeling very bad. I mean if they can do that thing to maybe - I'm sorry, to another Black guy, it seems to me they can even do the same thing to me, or even maybe the same thing to my own brother. So I start feeling very, very much bad, but since I have seen the whole secret, I mean, it seems I have infiltrated their organisation or maybe I have seen what they have been doing all these years.  Then I was worried.
	So later they said to me I must go to the shop to buy some cooldrinks, because it seems maybe they have had enough.  They have been trying to get the information from Samuel, but all the time he was denying.  So they said to me I must go to the shop to buy some cooldrinks.

JUDGE WILSON: What time was it then?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: You can say maybe after 30 minutes. Because we arrived at the first scene possibly by nine o'clock. I mean, I'm sorry, correction, at the second scene by nine o'clock, nine, half-past nine.  It was still early. And I went to the shop and I came back with the cooldrinks. Only to find out there is sort of a fire which was busy dying off.  By that time they were now standing by the cars, having some drink.

UNKNOWN: A drink like what?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Pardon?

UNKNOWN: Was it a cold drink you were sent to buy?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Ja, I went to the shop to buy some cooldrinks, but they were having some like brandy and whisky, mixing it with the cooldrinks.  So in other words, the other cooldrinks which I went to the shop to buy, it was just to make it extra.

UNKNOWN: (Indistinct).

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Ja, to have enough drink to drink for the day.  And they further instructed me and Julius to go to Samuel, you know, to ask him again what does he know about the information of the robbery which occurred at the basement of R3,5 million.

UNKNOWN: Were you ever instructed by them to go and ask Samuel as to his political activities?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, under no stage.

UNKNOWN: Okay.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: So I was supposed to ask Samuel about the disappearing, the robbery which happened in the basement of R3,5 million, and at the same time I must ask him what happened to the R60 000,00 which disappeared from the basement.  That was not the robbery, it was just the money which disappeared during the exchange, while the guys were loading the containers from the strong room to the trucks, going out to the lines.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever have an opportunity of listening to either Mr Gerber or Van Eyck or Oosthuisen whilst they were questioning the deceased on the spot?  Did you overhear what they were saying to him?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, the only thing which they wanted to know from him, it was the information about the robbery, nothing else.

UNKNOWN: You didn't hear them ask anything about politics?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, nothing, because most of the time I was supposed to be acting as an interpreter.

UNKNOWN: Okay, continue.