Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Would you consider these motivations also tohave been your own in these actions?

ANSWER: I must say to the Commission that for two yearsI was actively involved in combatting terrorism and the combattingof activists.   The purpose was broadly to combat communism, theANC/SACP alliance, broadly speaking.   At that time during theyears 86/87, the ANC, as Mr P W Botha told us was involved ina total onslaught against the country and this onslaught wouldhave been against primarily civilians.   The purpose would havebeen to intimidate civilians, to voluntarily but also under someintimidation act against the government of the day.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter, with regard to eliminationof activists, could you explain to the Commission why it was consideredto be necessary under certain circumstances?

ANSWER: Yes Mr Chair, these activists were generally,at least those which we targeted for elimination, were generallythe stronger activists, the more intelligent activist, a personwho would have incited the youth to action of various other criminalacts, necklacing murders and then at the last moment he wouldhave stood back after having incited the youth to these actions.  To arrest these persons subsequently would have been a wasteof time, I
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imagine that one of the persons that gave testimony that we didnot need further Nelson Mandela's, if this person would
have been allowed out of jail this person would have become ahero to his community, which we could not have allowed at thattime.   It would not have been proper at that time to create heroesin this manner.    By eliminating such a person there would automaticallyhave been an effect on the civilians who, along with the militaryand police targets which we then in our own way we attempted todefend, by eliminating a person before he could act in certainways, we defended the civilian population.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter, your information system wasit adequate for instance with regard to the case Thibedi to provideyou with information ahead of time that he would have forced peopleto eat raw eggs or raw food.   Would you have been able to stopa person from acting in such a way or was that impossible?

ANSWER: Unfortunately not, since we were working withinformants who had to write a report which had to be gatheredat a central point, or which we had to obtain at a central point.  This information we would only have obtained a day or so afterthe incident.  We also worked with a number of informants andthe different reports had to be accumulated and transformed intoa central document which would then have told you what had happened.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter would it therefore have beenpossible at all to stop such a person prior to acting?

ANSWER: Unfortunately not Chair, we only obtained theinformation subsequent to the events, after the act was committedwe were only able to act against such a person.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter was there any other approach
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available to you in order to act against these activists and terroristswho committed serious acts of terror also against civilians?  Would there have been other ways for you to prevent such a person?

ANSWER: No Chair, our security legislation only had atemporary effect, you could only remove a person for 180 daysmaximum out of the community.   When he returned to the communityhe would then have been a hero of that community, you would havemade such a person into a martyr, you would have strengthenedthat person in that community.   Under such circumstances werean activist was very strong it was necessary preferably to eliminatesuch a person.   A good example is Mr Thibedi, look at his positionin the ANC today.  The information available to us then wouldhave been correct, that he was a very strong activist.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter what would your view have beenwith regard to the question whether a war situation raged in thecountry at that time?

ANSWER: Thinking back to those years we would see thateven on television our then State President, President P W Bothasaid that we were in a state of war and that there would neverbe any negotiations with the ANC, that we would combat them withevery means possible.   In our perceptions it was indeed a stateof war, admittedly unconventional as Mr Van Vuuren gave testimony,it was a completely unconventional war, but we were under circumstanceswhere violence in the most extreme form was used against us, someof my black colleagues in particular in Mamalodi were shot deadby activists, terrorists of the ANC.   Also in Mamalodi in thearea where I worked, there was also a limpet mine planted whichtook one of our caspir vehicles out of action.
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<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter as you remember, in your memory,would the acts of these activists and terrorists have been
aimed solely against the South African police and military personnel,or also against civilians?

ANSWER: Certainly also civilians, many of these civilianswere also hurt in this conflict, many of them were informantsand as soon as the ANC determined that a particular person mighthave been an informant to the police, they would have eliminatedsuch a person, also by means of school boycotts, consumer boycotts,many of these civilians suffered unnecessarily.   Unfortunatelythe ANC made no distinction when they took a consumer boycottagainst a person, they simply acted in a similar way against everyone.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter your actions as in the caseof Mr Thibedi where you were given instructions to eliminate sucha high profile activist or terrorist, would this have been partof a counter-revolutionary action on the part of the South Africanpolice against the onslaught of the ANC and other liberation movements?

ANSWER: At that time it was Government strategy, it wasa counter-insurgency or counter-revolutionary strategy which evenin the State Security Council would have been discussed.   Itwas general knowledge that action would have been taken againstthese persons.

<UNKNOWN>: How do you know that this would have been discussedin the State Security Council?

ANSWER: That's the story that we were generally toldby our superiors that the State Security Council would have saidsomething, and that is simply the way in which the informationcame through to us, the staff on the ground.
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I was not present at any of those meetings but I'm sure that ifwe look at minutes we would find that such minutes would be available.

<UNKNOWN>: You also said that you are suffering a lossof memory, who is your doctor?

ANSWER: I was at a Dr J P Verster as well as at a clinicalpsychologist Dr Matthews who took a battery of tests on me.

CHAIRPERSON: ... the loss of memory?

ANSWER: Chair it's difficult in 1988 I was in a seriouscar accident, immediately before that I went through a divorce.  For a large part of my hospital stay I can remember nothing.  With regard to certain of these incidents, with regard to whichI will also give testimony at a later stage in this application,I can remember parts.  I was told that this is a very selectivesuppression of certain acts and he said that as far as he is concernedI..(end of side B)...

JUDGE WILSON: : You also say in your application that afterthe bomb was thrown into the house you ran some 50-100 metresaway from the house before it exploded.   Do you remember that?

ANSWER: Once again Mr Chair it was normal procedure,and this incident I can't remember this incident at all.

JUDGE WILSON: : Mr Van Vuuren told you, I understood...

ANSWER: That's correct, according to what Mr Van Vuurentold me it must be correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : The next thing you say is "I am informedthat as we ran, W/O Van Vuuren looked backwards and saw that thehouse was no longer standing".   Was that also what Van Vuurentold you?