Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I wouldn't say it was covert, the people knew who they were doing it for and I don't think you can refer to them as a covert organisation.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You didn't received the firearm back ultimately?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I never got it back.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Do you know what happened to it?  Do you have personal knowledge of it?

WOUTER J BASSON: I do know that Mr Burger told Mr van Zyl that the weapon, or that the project had been stopped and that the weapon had to be, I think destroyed.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you didn't carry out that instruction?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, no, I was not authorised to do that kind of thing.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Perhaps just on this point regarding Mr Omar and chemical substances, the project name was Britz, is that correct?  Christo Britz.

WOUTER J BASSON: My administrative name.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You real name is of course Wouter Basson.  We know that there is another, if you don't mind, a better known Wouter Basson.

WOUTER J BASSON: He's not necessarily better known.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But in any event he has a medical background.  You have no medical background?

WOUTER J BASSON: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But in any event there is a continuing court case in that regard.  He's a family member of yours?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: He's a cousin?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you have any direct contact or connections with him at the stage here relevant, namely when you were in Special Forces, specifically the CCB?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, no, I had no contact with him, I didn't even have any contact with him on a family level.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You mean on a social family level?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you were related by blood, but you had no social contact.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you aware at any stage during the relevant period, of Dr Wouter Basson's activities?

WOUTER J BASSON: I was never aware that he was the person as alleged, who was responsible for the things that he is being charged with today.  I was however aware of a channel to a person to obtain certain chemical substances but I never connected it with him as a person.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You didn't know who these people were who were manufacturing and supplying these things?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, it was a big secret, it was a very confidential matter.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Then there was a further project surrounding the baboon foetus in Bishop Tutu's garden, were you directly involved in that?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I wasn't directly involved there, I however am aware of that incident, once again by virtue of Mr Burger's communication to me in this regard.  I wasn't involved in the handling or planning or the objective of the thing.  I wasn't involved in that way at all.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now just by the way, one could mention that - before going on to the fourth case, the bomb in Athlone at the Early Learning Centre, one could mention that there were also other cases, for instance a project of Botha's surrounding Roskam's car, you were involved in that.  That is not one of the aspects for which you ask for amnesty, but you admit your involvement?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I admit my involvement in Roskam's car.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Then there's also a minibus which had to be burnt out here in Cape Town, and a printing press.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, the two cases of Mr van Zyl, I'm aware of that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You acted as a Co-ordinator in that regard?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And the order to monitor Bruce White, you were also involved in that?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And the monitoring of Anton Lubowski?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I was involved.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I'm not going to enter into the detail of all of that, but I just want to mention it to establish that you were aware of that and what your involvement was there.
	As far as the Early Learning Centre case is concerned the detail is already on record, I don't want to waste too much time on that, but you confirm your involvement there?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: That the intelligence came initially from Slang van Zyl and his infrastructure?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: In that case the intelligence channel to which you had access, Derek, was that used to confirm this information?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I didn't use the Derek Louw channel because at one point he was unavailable and Mr Burger and I took it up directly with Mr Verster and he then said alright he would see what he could do and I'm assuming that he had the capacity to verify the information in respect of the additional reasons which later became available when the matter was presented to the Chairperson, but that specific additional information didn't come from me or from the ground level.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And it also didn't come from Derek Louw?

WOUTER J BASSON: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You do mention that certain information came from van Zyl and later at this briefing you realised or learnt that there was a whole lot of new information.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, which Mr Verster conveyed to Gen Webb.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Basson, when you went to Mr Verster because Derek wasn't available, and he said that he will look into it and then you assume, you say you assume that he had the information ...(indistinct).  Did he come back when you saw him again in regard to this project, with computer print-outs and stuff like that?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, Mr Verster had this way about him, he said "Look I know what I'm doing."  I didn't specifically ask him what he was going to do, I just became aware of the additional information when the matter was presented to the General.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So it was clear to you that he done work on it?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, he had to have got the information from somewhere.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Alright.  The obtaining of the weaponry, the armament used, the bomb, were you involved in that?   And the limpet mine?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, the contact with this person Hekkies and he gave me the limpet mine.  The mechanism ...(intervention)

MR P DU PLESSIS: The mechanism was given to the General by the same person?

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know if it was the limpet only or the mechanism as well, or whether I got it from the General, I can't remember, but I do think that I also got the mechanism from this person because this person would have to brief me as to the use and the instructions, user's instructions of this mechanism, and the General would not have been able to tell me that or convey that to me, that was not one on his level.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you don't have any independent recollection of the mechanism?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I don't know whether I - well, it was obtained, they were obtained.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Alright, so they were obtain and then you can confirm that it was handed over to Mr van Zyl and you were also involved with the drawing in of Mr Calla Botha in the project?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.  When I explained to Mr van Zyl what the procedure was in respect of how the mechanism operated and how it was put together, I could see that he was slightly frightened, so we decided after talking to Mr Verster that we would make an exception to use Mr Botha on a temporary basis as a result of the reasons well known.  We did it like that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So the project was carried out in the sense that the bomb did explode and cause damage and also apparently some injuries at the Early Learning Centre?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Do you have an independent recollection as to what the order was in respect of the carrying out of the project?