Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

MR PRIOR: Mr Xundu, your previous evidence was to the effect that when you stood on the inside of the door at the entrance when you were speaking to this man, you could see his office, that's what you said earlier in your evidence, while Mr Stanford has been questioning you, that was what you said.  However, your earlier evidence didn't say that at all.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I just hope that you can rewind this thing, I didn't say I saw the office because by then when I was answering that - when I was saying that I was answering the question, you wanted to establish whether I was in the office - then I said, as I entered I only passed the glass door entrance and then he stood to face me whilst he was just about to enter the entrance on the left, entrance to where the party was.

MR PRIOR: In any event you're saying now that you didn't see the office and you weren't ever in that office?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No, that is why I say..[intervention]

MR PRIOR: You see, we're getting bogged down on a point, we're getting bogged own on a point.  All Mr Stanford's trying to establish, if I understand him correctly, is that you went into the premises, into the building, that's all he's trying to establish and that no one gave you a hard time about being there, that's what he's put to you previously and you've confirmed that.  I think we can move on.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: The initial assault for this attack, did that come from you or from somebody else?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: The initial assault for the attack, did it come from me or the other person?  Is that the question?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Yes that's the question.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I will not understand right from in terms that you are trying to perhaps say we selected the target?

MR PRIOR: Just answer the question.  Did the thought come from you or did it come from somebody else?  If it came from somebody else then he might go on to ask you who?  But just answer the question, it's really not a difficult question.  Please, you don't have to spar with the man, just answer the question.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, once again, it came from Comrade Iklapa.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: It came from?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Director of Operations.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Director of Operations?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Was the instruction given to you then to carry out this attack as it was in your region?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: And you then carried out that attack?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: And you assumed control of that attack?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: What day did you originally plan, what was the date planned for this attack?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: The date planned?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Yes what was the date planned.  It took place on the 28th November, a Saturday as far as I remember.  Was that the date you originally planned for that attack?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No obviously it should be the day when we received the information about the date of the party.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, you're not understanding the question, he's saying what day did you originally intend to carry out the attack, did you plan it to happen on?  You see how you're missing each other?  He's saying what date did you set for the attack to happen on?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: The set date, the set date for the attack must have been the 28th.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: That is I think what I put to you that you, I didn't quite word it that way, but your first planned attack was on the 28th November is that right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: That was the only date planned for the attack?  It's a very simple question.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja but it's very simple, I have to recall.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: You got to have what?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: To recall.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, he's saying he's trying to remember, just to make sure.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, but if I remember very well, we must have set another date but then on receipt of the  ...[inaudible] information about the date of the party.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I beg your pardon?

MR PRIOR: Sorry, just let him finish please.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: What I was saying that we must have set another date or planned - or let me say the attack was on the pipeline and then we planned perhaps for an earlier date but then on receipt of the information that there'll be a party - but I can't remember very well, really.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Am I right in saying that you only planned the attack after you heard, as you said in your evidence, that there were going to be high dignitaries of the police and army security personnel present?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, okay.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Is that right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay let me say that's right.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: And that date was given to you as being the 28th November?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Why then in your own records did you put down that the attack was postponed once.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, okay, that is why I'll say this particular report must not be a final product and I thought perhaps you, the Commission wanted to take me for a surprise and produce another final report from the SAP where we have a report that has been signed and that is final.  I don't think that this is..[intervention]

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: This report - let me just refresh you memory perhaps, perhaps you need a refreshing, it's headed "Operational Record Mbedo Regiment".  Is that not your regiment?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja that was the regiment in which we were serving.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Right, and it's to the Director of Operations, the date was given, the time of the attack, "Operation Throw Stones" it's called, is that right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Is all that information correct?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja it's correct.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: The players of King William's Town Golf Club, there's then the names of five members, I think Mr Lax asked you earlier on who some of them were if I remember correctly because these are obviously alibis in the names here and then you carry on length of planning : 2 days, postponement : once.
	You say because of weather conditions the enemy could not avail himself.  Now, that's obviously from you and I want to know why you're not speaking, why didn't you tell us about the other attack earlier on or the other planned attack?  Now it comes out that there was another planned attack and it was postponed and you even give the reasons for postponement here.
I want to know why you didn't tell us earlier on about that?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, let me start by saying I've indicated earlier on that we cannot work or base ourselves entirely on these reports that were taken by the SAP because I have in mind of this particular report, this is not a complete report, this is not the final product.  Things like - I know how the proforma for a report of an operation looked like.  For instance the units here, ...[inaudible] Regiment was a very big regiment but the unit in particular which took, which participated in the coup detachment is not mentioned here.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Are you saying now this is not your report?