Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson, but if they realise that it would be important that I should not be present, then there was nothing that I could do.

MR SIBANYONI: Did they take you in trust, did they trust you, your colleagues and superiors?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I think so, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Is Mr Robertshaw in a position to tell us about those things, sensitive things?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't know, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: On page 29B of the bundle, the third paragraph you say, and the last sentence of the third paragraph - or paragraph 3, let me say paragraph 3
"'n Faktor wat ook 'n rol gespeel het is dat ek, soos wat dit sal blyk, redelik oortuig daarvan is dat nie een van die vier betrokke beriggewers meer lewe nie."
The four informers you are referring to, who are they?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: May I please be given an opportunity to read this, Chairperson?  Chairperson, these four people are Betty Boom, Tax Sejanamane, Nomasonto and KK.

MR SIBANYONI: You say it will appear later that no-one of them are still alive, from where would we establish that no-one of them is still alive?  Or how will it appear?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, what is written here is not what comes from me, it appears that this is Mr Jantjie's words.  I have explained to this Committee that my participation or my role was only confined at the farm and driving the car and when they were taken back I would not know what happened to them.

MR SIBANYONI: But this is your statement in support of your application.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: This is Mr Jantjie's statement and I have asked that my statement should be incorporated into his statement.

MR LAX: Just to help you Sir, this is not Jantjie's statement, if you turn over the page, go one page back, just go one page back, this is your supplementary statement.

MR VISSER: There's some confusion here, Chairperson, one must only read paragraph 25 at page 29E, and that is where it later appears that it is clear that the witness is not putting this together.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you be of assistance, Mr Wagener, to the witness?  I'll allow you.  Whilst you are doing so Mr Wagener, let him switch off his mike, I don't want to hear what you two are saying.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF
ON RESUMPTION

DAELE DANIEL THULO: May you please repeat the question, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, may you for his assistance, repeat the question.

MR SIBANYONI: My question is, you are saying it will later appear that no-one of these informers are still alive, my question is where would we find that, where will that appear that no-one of these informers are still alive?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would answer the question this way Chairperson, I think this would maybe appear to their families that they have disappeared and the only conclusion that they would reach will be that those people are dead.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you were able to bring these people into South Africa without the Lesotho police checking, now my question is, in other words the Lesotho police will not know how many ANC refugees are still in Lesotho, how many have been taken out of Lesotho by the police?  Do you agree that that logically follows?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not understand that, Chairperson, I don't know whether they were keeping the records of the people who were coming into Lesotho and those who were leaving Lesotho, but I believe that after we have taken out these people, I don't know whether the Lesotho police went back to their records to check who was still in Lesotho and who has left Lesotho at that time.

MR SIBANYONI: Insofar as you are concerned or insofar as you know these people were fetched by you, that is your unit, from Lesotho into South Africa and taken to the farm in Ladybrand, is that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: You have no knowledge out of your own observation, you have never seen them being taken back into Lesotho, is that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: That is all for now, Mr Chairperson, I'd like to check my notes at the beginning of his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Have you found what you wanted, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Yes, Chairperson.
	Right at the very beginning, while you were busy with your evidence-in-chief, when you first led on KK, on Mr Ngono you were asked what was your role with regard to Mr Ngono, and you said that you were called to a meeting with seniors - that's what my note looks like, it may be wrong, and that at that meeting there was a discussion about him and that's where you first heard about him.  Now I don't have it here and obviously the transcript will say precisely what you said, inasmuch as it was translated, but my recollection, and it's not in my note, but I'm putting it no higher than that, but my recollection was that the meeting was your unit and other people.  But if I'm wrong I'll leave it at that.  You say there were no other people present in that meeting?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, in case it might assist, my attorney's note is that he added that the information that was discussed at that meeting came from other people.  So in that sense, Mr Lax might be correct.

MR LAX: No I just had a clear recollection that this was a meeting of Robertshaw, Thulo, Jantjie, Jagga and other people, but the record will speak for itself anyway, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

MR VISSER: Well if that is what the record is going to say, it certainly is contrary to my instructions.

MR LAX: The reason I made a note to ask a question about it was, it struck me as unusual, but I could have heard wrong, it's also a real possibility, so ...
	But you're clear in your own mind Mr Thulo, that that is wrong, as far as you are concerned?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And this was a meeting to discuss this new information about this person and then to decide what you're going to do about it and then you got instructions that flowed from those discussions?  Is that a fair way of describing what happened?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR LAX: What interests me is how come you were excluded from all the other people on any background information about that, and the impression you've given us is that you were purposefully excluded, whereas here you were included.  Can you - it just seems rather odd that you should be excluded in the other three but in this case you're included.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I do not have an explanation for that but that is what happened.

MR LAX: Now just by way of a general statement, you've told us that you were a field worker and that you were at this point in time working in Lesotho, collecting intelligence, servicing certain sources, of which you had about 13.  You've also told us that you were excluded from certainly what to me seems like a lot of information.  Am I right so far?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, this happened at that time, only during that incident.

MR LAX: Yes.  So are you saying that with regard to everything else besides these four incidents you were informed of everything else and you were never, information was never kept away from you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I don't know whether there were other incidents that took place apart from this one that we are talking about here.

MR LAX: You see Mr Thulo, that's precisely the problem I have with your evidence, the way you say you worked and your unit worked with you, in relation to these incident, is totally contrary to the way one would expect any police information unit to work, in general, and you say further that it's only in relation to these incidents that it was different.  Why's that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't know Chairperson, why it happened that way, but this is how it happened.