Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-31

CHAIRPERSON: Well before then, can I refer to six of the photographs that seem to show pock marking on the walls.  Sorry, the seventh, external six so pock markings to the internal walls.  Were these marks of bullets that were there after this, the night in question?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct, that happened on that particular day.

CHAIRPERSON: And are there also some bullet marks on the outside of the house, in particular one of both sides of the window that appears to have been shattered, of the front window of the house where you can see the number 1658?  Do you agree there were bullet marks on the outside of the house as well and the window was shattered?  You wouldn't know would you, you can't say what it looked like after the house, shooting because you were taken away to the hospital.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I just want to basically him to identify the home at this stage.  My next witness will identify the ...(intervention)  Sorry, could the Committee just bear with me, I just want to consult with the evidence leader very briefly.
	Just for reference Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, my learned friend is in agreement that I can place this on record.  I personally did an inspection in loco at the home shortly after the incident and counted fourteen bullet holes through the kitchen door, nine through the lounge door.  There were twenty seven big bullet holes on the interior lounge wall.  I have a list of this which I will hand in.  There were fifty what looked like bullet holes on the, small bullet holes on the interior lounge wall.  There were eight big potholes in the interior of the kitchen wall, there were fifty plus bullet holes in the interior kitchen walls, there were three bullet holes into the sink, there were four through the kitchen table.  In the main bedroom there were eight big bullet holes and thirty five small bullet holes and on the outside there were at least twelve bullet holes, indicting two hundred and twenty marks.  Now just sorry, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit E.
EXHIBIT E HANDED IN

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, you mentioned this firing, can you give an estimate of the length of the firing or if there was a lot or a little bit of firing immediately after you woke up and before you yourself were shot?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: The gunshots we heard in the beginning when they started to shoot at and also when I shot back at them, the gunshots continued until the owner of the house started calling out, Mr Shandu.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  There's no further questions for this witness, thank you Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: Sorry, if I could just intervene once more here, it's been pointed out to me that I've made a glaring mistake and that refers to the injury on the Applicant's head.  I indicated that it was on the left side of his head, it's actually on the right hand side of his head, thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mthembu why were you chosen to be the bodyguard of Mr Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Maybe it's the way we were working together with Mr Msizi as we have ...(inaudible) complained that people were getting killed, the leaders were getting killed.  That might have been the reason.  I was the one who always insisted to Msizi that he must come and help us at  Mandene.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you started shooting the two, the three bullets, the three shots outside, whom did you think you were shooting at?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I was shooting at a person who was direct to the window was shooting into the house.  I had to shoot through the window because I saw some bullets get into the house through the window.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What did you suspect the person you were shooting at outside to be?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I thought they were the attackers.  The attackers - we have heard that they might come or they have attacked, or they will come to attack Mr Shandu on those particular days.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What attackers you heard would come or come to attack Mr Shandu, what attackers were those?  Did you think of thugs that were going to attack Mr Shandu, did you think of people from some place coming to attack Mr Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Those were people who used to attack ANC members in Mandene.  They were IFP members.  We were still fighting when it comes to followers and also just as organisations.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now referring to the statement you made to the police when you were led by my learned friend, you said that what you said to the police is not true because you were afraid, do you remember that?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you also afraid to disclose even names to the police?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I was afraid to mention names but I didn't have the names of the attackers which I could have disclosed to the police.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you afraid even to mention names of people in your own organisation?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, I was afraid to mention names of my fellow comrades and even those who were working underground.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why were you afraid?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: It was because police intimidated me because there was the people who came to fetch me and the statement that I have to make we were, I made the statement while in the car from hospital to the police station and thereafter they took me to the cells.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Didn't you mention a name - didn't you say to the police that you picked up the firearm at a roadblock?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I did say that because I was afraid that they were going to harass me or torture me because in most of the cases when they investigating cases, they were intimidating people and in those days when they said they were going to shoot you, they were really going to shoot you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now in your affidavit - I refer members of the Committee to page 5 of the bundle - in your affidavit, the last paragraph thereof, you state that during 1992 there was a considerable amount of violence in the Northern Natal area and many ANC and Cosatu leaders and officials were killed.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you tell us the figure or the number of Cosatu officials that were killed in that area?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: On that day there were no other people who were attacked.  This is what I heard when I came out of hospital but before I went to Shandu's place people who had been killed, there were over five of leaders, the leaders were over five.  That is the reason why I was asked to go to Mandene.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now over to page 7 of your affidavit still ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, can I will your permission just interpose for consistence?  Mr Mthembu, can you name these five leaders who had been killed?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: The one that I remember is Ken Shandu but that was the last person to be killed, he was a prominent person and that's why I had to be asked to go to Mandene.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when was Ken Shandu killed, can you remember?  The month not the date because I'm sure it won't be possible for you to remember the date.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: He was killed during November 1989.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And the others?  Any of the others that you can remember out of the five?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Others were killed before Ken was killed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The names thereof, are you able to give us their names?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I don't remember their names because they were not people whom I knew very well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Ma'am.  The last one who was killed that you mentioned, Ken Shandu, where was he killed?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: He got killed at Sindumbele.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where in particular ...(inaudible)

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: He had a homestead of Mr Shandu just outside the township, the township of Sindumbele.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: By Shandu are you referring to Vincent Shandu the one you were his bodyguard?