Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, it did not surprise me because if a person is found lying on the street, a docket would be opened, depending on the investigations.  So the fact that the docket has been opened doesn't mean somebody would be arrested but it means that there has to be an investigation, so I was not surprised or afraid because Capt Mfazwe had assured me that there won't be any problem.

MR MNQANDI: Didn't you feel that maybe the deceased would be able to disclose the names of his people and you were - of the people who were attempting to kill him and you would be in trouble?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, we were not afraid of that because the government of the day backed us on all the efforts that we did fighting the enemy so we knew that even if the case went to the Supreme Court, we would be released, the government would support us so we had no problem with that.  Because we were not the ones who were planning all these operations, the government would plan this and it would come to us as the police, as something that has been made a law.  So I was not afraid, even if I was told to go to the Supreme Court, I knew that the government would support me and I would be released, as it indeed happened.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know how long the deceased after the first incident, stayed in hospital?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I don't know.

MR MNQANDI: And you say that when he was in hospital he was under police guard.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MNQANDI: Were there any charges that were going to be preferred against him?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, because maybe other units had charges against him because he was a wanted, other units wanted to arrest him even in that office but in our unit we had no cell where we could put him but maybe in other units he would be charged and taken to court, but in our units we did not want to arrest him.

MR MNQANDI: Okay, I want us to deal with the second incident.  When you took the deceased to the place where he was killed, how many were you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The first incident, Sir?

MR MNQANDI: The second incident.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was myself, Spambo, Mr Tjane, Gofunga, Smooi.  I'm not sure whether we were more than five, but I'm sure that these people that I've already mentioned were there.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know how many vehicles went on this operation?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: If I still remember well I think there were two.

MR MNQANDI: What time of the day was it when you left Butterworth?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was about five when we were closing the office, but it was before six.  It was five or after five, but before 6 o'clock.  I'm not sure whether we were closing at half past four or five in the office, but it was during that time.  Maybe we had arrived there at about six or past six, but this happened before we close the office.

MR MNQANDI: When you reached the deceased place, was it still light?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: Can you explain to us what exactly happened when you reached the place.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Tjane and myself we took the deceased, we went with him so that he can point out this room that he said there were grenades in and at that time other members were surrounding the house.  W/O Spambo who was in charge of the operation was the one who was putting members in certain points so that we would surround that place.  And then at that time we continued, we went inside.  We went through the gate, there was a house on the right-hand side, a rondawel house, I'm not sure.  ...(intervention)

MR MNQANDI: Sorry, let me interrupt you.  When you came to the house was there any person that you met, that is the people from the vicinity or the members of the homestead?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, there was someone who was standing next to this house on the right-hand side, we asked where the mother of the house was, he said she was not there.  We asked who was present, he said there was no-one but he was going to call somebody.  We then went in at that time, then he went to call that person that he said he was going to call which I think he was related to that family.

MR MNQANDI: This person that you are talking about, was it a male or a female?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was a female.

MR MNQANDI: Did you meet any male member of the family when you came into the house?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I can't remember except maybe she arrived after being called by that person we were talking to, but I can't remember anybody else except the person that we met with who was standing next to that house.  She said that the mother of the house was not there, she was in town but she was going to call someone else.  But I didn't see that person if she had called him because we went inside the house after speaking to that person.

MR MNQANDI: How was the deceased handcuffed when you reached the house?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: His hands were handcuffed on his back.

MR MNQANDI: And the members that you were going with, did anyone ...(indistinct) onto the deceased or was he walking on his own?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He walking on his own.

MR MNQANDI: When you reached the inside of the house, how many were you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was two of us, he was the third one.

MR MNQANDI: And you said that you asked for a key from him, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: Where did the key come from?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He pointed a key in different places of which I can't remember whether he said it was in his pocket or on top of the door, but I thought that I had no right to check the key and open his home.  But because of the instructions that we got, he was the one who was supposed to go inside first, so I took off the handcuffs and then he opened the door.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, you say you think you've got the right to kill him but you haven't got the right to walk into his home?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: We do have a right to in homes, but not before him because of different incidents that had happened before whereby our members found themselves being targets.

MR MNQANDI: And the sole purpose of your going to his home was to look for weapons, is it correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MNQANDI: And when you went to this door he had indicated that this was the door in which the weapons we kept.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: And I take it that you were armed.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I had my 9mm with me and other members had their weapons with them.

MR MNQANDI: Can you explain exactly how it happened that he was inside the room on his own?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It happened this way, after I took off the handcuffs he took the key, he put the key in the door and we were standing behind him.  What he did he pretended as if he had difficulty opening the door, but what he did is he went inside the house quickly and then he closed the door quickly and after doing that I held onto the key, trying to open the key(sic) but I found out that he was holding the key on the other side and then I asked him to open the door.  After some few minutes, I think one minute or two minutes, he opened the door, he slightly opened the door, he was bending and he had a handgrenade in his hand and because that was the passage I could see that he could not be able to see us where we were standing at that time.

MR MNQANDI: When he was opening the door, how far from him were you standing next to the door?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was close, I was very close to him.

MR MNQANDI: Can you indicate to us.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: ...(no English interpretation)

MR MNQANDI: And your colleague, how far was he?