Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

THOMAS MANTHATA: Khala I am sorry, can you please tell us what happened then to you, did they torture you?

MR MOGASWANE: They electrocuted me.  I was on my way to tell you that point.  This is a very long story, I was really coming to that point.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Khala can you please jump into that point because we haven't got much time.

MR MOGASWANE: And he asked me about our village.  He said to me what do you know about the money you got from UDF,
R4 000. I said to him I don't bear any knowledge of such money and he electrocuted me then and he asked me, he said tell me there was a white man who was a manager at a sorghum brewery industry and this was very close to Valies and he said to me do you know Mr Moolman very well.  I said yes and he said to me how do you know him.  I said I am his customer and he said to me remember Moolman came to you at Kersfontein.  What did you say to him.  I said it is true he came to us but because I used to see him often he asked me to organise the youth so that he can talk to them to tell them he wants to join them and he accepts them as people so that his cars can drive free in the township.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mogaswane you have spoken to us quite a bit about the torture that you experienced because that is really the focus, the human rights violations, the abduction and the blindfolding and being electrocuted.  I am going to ask Mr Tom Manthata to ask you certain specific questions
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which will assist us in our work.  So if you will please respond to the questions which I am going to ask Mr Manthata to put to you.  Thank you very much, sir.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Mogaswane don't give us a very long story.  We want to know how did they assault you.

MR MOGASWANE: Yes, they electrocuted me.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Were you a leader in the UDF?

MR MOGASWANE: No, I wasn't a leader.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Were you against the idea of incorporation of Moutse to Kwandebele?

MR MOGASWANE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What were you doing to show that you were against incorporation?

MR MOGASWANE: We didn't consider the Kwandebele government as our government.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I am saying what were you doing to show that you were against the incorporation.

MR MOGASWANE: We didn't take claims to the police station around the township here because it was the Kwandebele police station.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Have you ever fought against the Ndebeles who were at Moutse to show that you were fighting against incorporation?

MR MOGASWANE: No, we have never fought against them. My neighbours are the Ndebeles.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Haven't you organised a march to Kwandebele?

MR MOGASWANE: You wouldn't even organise a march to anywhere because the state of emergency was in place.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Didn't you fight people whom you thought were the members of Kwandebele government?

MR MOGASWANE: No, especially in our area.  I told you that
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I was selling beer, everybody came to my home to buy beer or they would even go to an extent of asking me a free beer and I would give them.

THOMAS MANTHATA: If I understand you well you are telling me that the people of Moutse, all of them, were tortured in such a way that even those ...  (nothing further on tape).  Mr Mogaswane, when you were against the incorporation of Moutse into Kwandebele, I want to know you as the residents of Moutse, which methods did you use to demonstrate to the government that you were against this incorporation. You said you didn't do much at all but what ways did you show the government that you are against incorporation?

MR MOGASWANE: We embarked on boycotts and we would say people don't have to buy at Groblersdal and Marble Hall because the central government wasn't doing anything about the issue of us being against the Kwandebele government.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You said they poured petrol in your nose and they said to you smell this, you know that you have been burning people.

MR MOGASWANE: No, it was a fabricated story.  I never burnt anyone to death.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Were you not involved in burning of people?

MR MOGASWANE: No, not at all.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Tell us then of the ways in which the people of Kwandebele who wanted incorporation, what were they doing to you, the people of Moutse?

MR MOGASWANE: The Ndebele government - I think I want to give you a clear answer.  They were occupying our hospital, the police stations were Kwandebele police stations and their vans were the Kwandebele vans.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did they harass you in any way to force you
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for independence?

MR MOGASWANE: They used to sjambok the youth, especiallly when they saw people in groups of more than three people.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You say you were not a member of the UDF.  What was the UDF doing in your area to help you?

MR MOGASWANE: I think we didn't understand each other.  The previous speaker asked me a question were you a leader.  I said to him no, I was a member but I wasn't a leader.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I am sorry, you were not a leader, you were just a member.

MR MOGASWANE: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When they electrocuted you, interrogating you, what happened then to you?

MR MOGASWANE: They brought me back home and the people of Moutse took me to Khotso house.  There was a field worker at Khotso House and he took me to a doctor.  The doctor examined me and he gave me medication.  He said I was not that bad, I will be just fine.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Now what about your ear and your hearing?  Can you hear?  Were you not affected in the ears?

MR MOGASWANE: No, I wasn't affected anywhere.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mogaswane, as I have listened on Monday and again today to you this issue of incorporation comes in all the time.  I just want you to try and make me understand what was the problem between the people of Moutse and the people of Kwandebele.  Why were you so much against the idea of incorporation?  What were the differences, if any?

MR MOGASWANE: There were no differences at all, if I have to give you an answer.  We were of the opinion that Moutse was a place for our forefathers and it ought to be our place
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as well and we didn't want the Kwandebele government to take it over.  Listen, if Moutse was going to be incorporated into Kwandebele they were taking the land of our forefathers from us.

RUSSELL ALLY: But as I understand it, the incorporation did not mean that you would lose your land.  Yes, people were given the choice of moving off elsewhere, but those people who were staying there would be allowed to continue staying there but would be under Kwandebele.

MR MOGASWANE: Maybe you didn't understand me well.  We wouldn't be ruled by any other person because we have our kings and chiefs whom we respect.  Now if we take other nations to rule us then it was another issue.

RUSSELL ALLY: Can I then understand present day, sir.  At the present time yes people still have their kings and their chiefs but there is a government that has the power in this area.  That is acceptable to all the people it seems.

MR MOGASWANE: You are right, we have our different kings and chiefs and there is a government of the day, as you have mentioned, but this is the people's government and we like this government and we have accepted it.

RUSSELL ALLY: I just want to come back to a point that you make in your statement where you say people were moved to Emmapan and Sevenstad.  Can you give us an idea of what percentage of people actually moved out to those areas.

MR MOGASWANE: I can't specifically give you the percentage but many people were taken to those places that I have mentioned.

RUSSELL ALLY: And you also mentioned that people were offered lots of money.  How much money were they given?