Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: They told us that the money is there as we asked them and we went up the stairs and we greeted them because it was the first time we saw them and asked as to how far the registration was and where the money was.

MR NODADA: Where did exactly did you meet these security guards, was it inside the auditorium or outside?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We met them inside upstairs, up the stairs.

MR NODADA: Up the stairs?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes.

MR NODADA: And where exactly did they say the money was?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: They pointed to a small room that was at that same hall, they showed that that's where all the activity was happening.

MR NODADA: Now how many doors did you notice that were leading to this auditorium?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: There were three doors we saw.  The door we entered through at the bottom and the others on top that were coming from the back.

MR NODADA: Now this small room which was pointed to you by the security guards, was it at the top of the auditorium or at the bottom?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR NODADA: The small room where the security guards said money was kept or was being calculated, did they say it was - did they point it out at the bottom of the auditorium or at the top?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It was at the top.

MR NODADA: At the top?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes.

MR NODADA: Alright, can you now tell this Commission what happened from the moment you entered the auditorium after you had spoken to the security guards?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: When we're talking with the security guards people entered, we calculated about three or four, they went up slowly, I saw one having a newspaper in his hand, because we thought it may be a student or students coming to register, they were slow, walking slowly.  We looked at these people because we were new in the venue and these people moved up.   When they were about to ascend the whole lot of stairs there was something in front of us - we were at the end of the stairs.  They went up, I was at the end near to a room with someone called Mr Data Mankumba.

MR NODADA: You say you were at the bottom and who was next to you?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Next to me was ...[inaudible] Mankumba who was a security guard there, next to him Sergeant Mkizwayo and then Sergeant Klokozile next to him and then over there another security guard.  That's where we were still looking at these four people looking up, thinking that they were students because they looked like students.  We did not know, we could not determine who may not be a student, that this one may be a student or whatever.  They got near...[intervention]

MR NODADA: Just before you get to that, through which of the three doors did these persons enter the auditorium?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: They entered through the same door we entered one at the bottom and they ascended the stairs as we had done.

MR NODADA: Yes, continue.

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: As we were still looking on when they were hiding over the pillar someone appeared next to us and shot the father next to me and I was hiding trying to run away to throw my gun because we're being shot at - I was shot at my left in the chest.  That's how I fell, the gun I was holding fell down too, I lost consciousness after that.  After some time I recovered my consciousness, I noticed that the gun I was holding was no more around.  When I looked around that the person was coming to shoot me, he was descending the stairs carrying a gun bag.  That was the end, I shouted to the fathers I thought were registering saying that they must help us because I was injured and Sergeant Mkizwayo was also injured.  I asked them to rush us to hospital for help.  When I was being picked up I again lost my consciousness, it took days before I could resume by consciousness.

MR NODADA: Right, did you notice any firearms in the possession of these four persons who entered the auditorium when they went up the stairs?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I never saw any guns, I only noted that one was holding a newspaper, or something looking like a newspaper, nobody would notice that they were carrying anything.

MR NODADA: And how were you holding your firearm, where was your firearm at the time?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: My gun was at my waist under the jersey I was wearing as I was not wearing the uniform that day.

MR NODADA: Was it showing?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It was not evident because I did not want anybody to notice.

MR NODADA: How were you dressed on this day?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I was wearing privately without a jacket though.

MR NODADA: And the other two police officers, how were they dressed?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: All of us were wearing private clothes, no one amongst us could be noted that he was a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was that?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: The reason because there was a unit called Emergency Unit that could be used if we were called anywhere and we may be required to go and arrest let's say Tsotsis who we did not want to notice us when we were around and when they break the law we then arrest them and apprehend them.

MR NODADA: In other words, you were instructed by your commanders to dress privately?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.

MR NODADA: And the two other policemen were they clearly - I mean were they possessing their firearms in a manner which could be clearly seen by anyone?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Nobody could notice that because we wore things that would cover the guns where the guns would not be noticed.

MR NODADA: And the two university officers, how were they dressed?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: They were wearing their security uniforms and their jackets of the university security uniform that are greenish.

MR NODADA: Did you notice any firearms in their possession?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: No did not even notice any guns because they were wearing jackets over.

MR NODADA: Were you able to recognise any of the four persons who entered?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I could not notice because they hid behind the pillar and we thought that they were students because of that we could not take special notice because we thought they were students.

MR NODADA: How many gunshots did you hear before you lost consciousness?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: The first was the one that shot the gentleman next to me father Mankumba, the second one, the one that hit me and I fell.

MR NODADA: Did you see the person who fired at Mr Mankumba?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: The person who shot gentleman, Mr  Mankumba, is the same one who shot me.

MR NODADA: Will you be able to identify that person if you had to walk into this hall or if he's amongst us in this hall?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I cannot try identifying.

MR NODADA: Before these shots were fired, did you hear any warnings by anyone about the presence of some people who were there for a specific purpose?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: There was no sign of these people that they may be intending to do something like that - the only thing they shot at us.

MR NODADA: Before the shots were fired at you, were there any other shots that had been fired at any other person at that time or at any other earlier time?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Nobody was shot, the only first time that was shot, it is when father Mankumba was shot and then me shot, that was the only time any shots were fired.

MR NODADA: Did you hear anybody giving any instruction that you should lie down?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Nobody said we must lie down.  If anybody has drawn a gun already you can't do anything.

MR NODADA: Now apart from the three of you, that is the three of you as police officers and the two security officers of the university can you give us an estimation of the number of people who were there when you arrived?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: There were other gentlemen and a lady who was sitting on the stairs and there were others inside at the room where they registering students and where I think there was money.