Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR STRYDOM: I believe that maybe I misunderstood you, so maybe that is the problem, but I heard that.  In any event, you say that on the same night it was said?  Where was Stikenauw and yourself when this was said?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We were in Stikenauw's room.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know the room number?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I only know my room number, room 3.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you go to his room after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I went to his room and thereafter I went to my own room, that is after we had been to the stadium to drink ntelezi.

MR STRYDOM: When you got to the stadium after the attack, who, which leader was there at the stadium?

MR STRYDOM: This induna, people like Gatchene.

MR STRYDOM: Can you remember anybody else?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Bekhi Chonco.  I do not remember the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, what was your answer to the question, why did you go to Stikenauw's room?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said that at that time I had not gone to bed, so I went to his room, thereafter I went to my own room.  I said I went to Stikenauw's room ...

CHAIRPERSON: What he wanted to find out is why did you go there.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had just gone there to visit.

MR STRYDOM: So you say at the stadium was Gatchene and Darkie, Prince Vanana Zulu was not there?

MR STRYDOM: I do not remember well.  According to - well, let me make a statement - was he the leader of the whole hostel, Vanana Zulu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I knew Mtwana Zulu to be an induna at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: But you don't remember seeing him at the hostel after the attack, at the stadium after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I said I did not see him.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I did not see him at the stadium.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Tell me, the muti or ntelezi, did you get some of that after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it was given to us at the stadium.

MR STRYDOM: Who gave it to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was just placed on the ground and every person was free to drink.  I drank it of my own free will.

MR STRYDOM: But you don't know who put it there on the ground so that you can take it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  We also returned the firearms to the stadium and Darkie Chonco removed them.

MR STRYDOM: So you just drank some of that ntelezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did drink it.  It was for cleansing.

MR STRYDOM: I want to read your statement, page 22, paragraph 24, the middle of the paragraph
"... we then washed by a certain muti provided by Chief Mtwana Zulu."
	What do you say about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  I did not see Prince Zulu there.

MR STRYDOM: It goes further
"... we were all happy, chanting and singing."
	Did that happen?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is so.  We did sing at the stadium and we were all excited.

MR STRYDOM: "We were praised, especially by Mtwana and Gatchene and told that we did a great job"?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  I did say that I did not see Mtwana.  What we did was to place our weapons on the ground, in a pile, the same weapons that we had used in the attack.

MR STRYDOM: So this is again something that appears in this statement that was not coming from you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know the contents of that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you put your firearms, the weapons on the ground of the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We returned them to the stadium, we put them on the ground and Darkie Chonco collected them.

MR STRYDOM: So nobody praised you there at the stadium there after the attack, stating that a great job was done?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.  We did sing and we were happy, but I don't remember anybody congratulating us.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what Darkie Chonco did with the weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were stored in the ceiling once again.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Darkie Chonco?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He is the one who removed them from the ceiling in the first place.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the situation that Darkie Chonco removed the firearms from where they were hidden in the ceiling and put them in the stadium?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So after the attack, you put the weapons on the stadium?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, from where he removed them.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Darkie Chonco removed them and hid them where he had removed them from?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You didn't assist him doing that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not assist him.

MR STRYDOM: If your statement reads "we hid the weapons in the ceiling of the hostel", that is again wrong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that, I did not hide any weapons.  I did not handle firearms, but I would be given one as an IFP member, but it was not my responsibility to look after them.

MR STRYDOM: How do you know that the weapons were hidden in the ceiling on that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We were at the stadium and we placed our firearms there and Darkie Chonco was the person who removed them and Themba Khosa and I (indistinct) on the 18th, to collect them.

MR STRYDOM: But you can't really say where Darkie Chonco put the firearms after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He did take them to the ceiling, that is where the firearms were always hid.  That is where we stored our weapons at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: That ceiling that you refer to, that ceiling is there at the showers, is that right, or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, near the showers.

MR STRYDOM: That is far from the stadium, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I think so.

MR STRYDOM: So from the stadium, you can't see what is going on at the showers?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did someone assist Darkie Chonco to take these weapons and hide them in the ceiling?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember, I just saw Darkie.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And did it also include the spears, were not there, were they?  The spears, they were not there?  Did he just remove the firearms?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The spears were taken by their respective owners.

CHAIRPERSON: He only removed the firearms?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he just removed the firearms.

MR STRYDOM: You said on many occasions that Darkie Chonco was in control of the firearms.  Aren't you making a mistake that the real person in control of the firearms was his brother, Damara?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I did not see Damara handling the weapons, firearms.  The only person that I saw as responsible for those firearms, was Darkie.

MR STRYDOM: So am I correct in saying that according to you, Damara had no specific role, either a leadership role or any kind of specific job in the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Even though I do not know what position he held, but he was highly regarded.  That is Damara Chonco.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that all the other applicants state that Damara Chonco was the person in control of weapons in the hostel, what do you say about that?  You are the only one that states that Darkie is actually the person that dealt with the weapons.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I deny, I dispute that.  They are just implicating Damara because he is dead.  I am not implicating Darkie falsely, I know Damara as well as Darkie.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if Darkie is still alive?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I do not know.  I do not know what has happened to him, I have been in prison.