Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Well I mean, if you wanted to, you can consult the Sunday Times ....(intervention)

MR MALAN: No, no, I'm asking you just a question.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: June 16th 1985.

MR MALAN: And you believed it?  You accept that at the time you were a target?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you, that's all, no intention to get anything else behind that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why you would have been a target?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Quite honestly Mr Chair, no, I would not know why I would have been a target, but there are two things that branch off from the question which you asked which have arisen earlier today which I do think need to be covered somewhat.  The first is that we did have, all of us, I mean generally, there was a perception that the Apartheid Regime was stepping up its activities in Botswana.

CHAIRPERSON: It may have been a perception then but it's ...(intervention)

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: It's not only a perception, I'm going to qualify that further Mr Chair.  In the first instance in March 1985 they blew up by car bomb Mr Roger Nkadimeng, that was March 1980 and it was a complete over-kill, a complete over-kill.  I mean that was in Gaberone yes, in a block of flats.  I mean with Roger it was a complete over-kill.  When I did my military training I learned that one normally calculates the amount of explosives that you use scientifically but that say 250 grams of medium type explosive like TNT or what the Americans call C4 and things like that, medium-type explosives, you require approximately 250 grams of explosives to destroy a railway track.  In the case of Roger Nkadimeng, they blew up the car completely, the engine was lifted from the ground floor where it was parked and went through the roof of the flat which was two stories above.  It was a complete - there was nothing left of Roger, except his feet.  His feet just below the ankle which were still attached to the shoes.  That was all that was left of Roger.  That was March 1985.  Then I think it was May 1985 when the Botswana police raided the premises in Mogoditsane and found a caravan full of ANC weapons.  It was in the newspapers at the time, so it was clear that there was an escalation of South African activities against ANC people in Botswana.  It was mentioned earlier that we had been alerted.  It's true, it wasn't the first time that we had been alerted.  Yes, we had been alerted.  We, in response to the alert, because in the area where we stayed, there were Barry Guilder, Peter Richie, ourselves, Eric ...(indistinct), Judy Sideman, there were five houses which were inhabited by people who were either ANC members or supporters of the ANC and at one stage we had instituted a system where we would take turns to walk from the - at night, to walk from the one house to the next and just make sure that there's nothing untoward happening and the ANC always interpreted the question of the state of alert very seriously and it depended on the area where you were, on what type of action was undertaken.  In Angola for instance in the training camps where these facilities existed, we would move to alternative bases, when there was an alert.  In Zambia when there was an alert, the Security Department would visit each and every single ANC house and make sure that people were able to at least defend themselves.  In Tanzania where we had large concentrations of ANC people living unarmed at Morogworo, Somafko, the Tanzanian army would be alerted and they would step up their activities.  In the forward areas like in Botswana, there was essentially nothing that we could do.  I mean even the system that we had of taking turns to walk towards one another's houses, would have meant absolutely nothing, I mean, considering what Mr Olifant said yesterday about 50,60 tanks and jet fighters and helicopters and things, it's quite pathetic.  What we were able to do was nothing, so that was what follows from this issue Mr Chair.

MR BERGER: Mr Abrahamse, before the raid and while you were living, during the time when you were living in the house at Pudulogo Crescent, did it happen that Ms Mbethe's children used to come to the house at any time?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: It was not only Ms Mbethe's children.  It was her four children, there were the two children of Bridget Mabandla and Kuduleko and Fidel, there were the three children of the Tanzanian Magistrate, who lived in the same street with the Gosetsili's, there were the children of Eric and Nellie, there were the children of Judy Sideman, there were ...(intervention

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying there were many children there at your property?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I was co-ordinator of the children's unit in MEDU, Mr Chair, of course there were many children at our property.  It was literally, it was almost every day, I think the days when there were no children at our house, was the exception rather than the rule.

MR MALAN: That was in day time.  At night time?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Sometimes the children over-nighted at our place.  I remember a particular period when Duma and Ipo, the children of Ms Mbethe, holidayed with us for 10 days, for 10 consecutive days.  They stayed with Mike and myself.

MR MALAN: When was that, do you know, can you recall?  Let me put it differently.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Well I can figure it out.  I'll take my time about it, but I can figure it out.  At the time Duma was 6.  If I'm not mistaken Duma was born in 1979, so that would have been 1985.

MR MALAN: What I'm really getting to is at the time of the raid, or at the reconnaissance which might have been in May then, probably in May, that Mr Olifant gave evidence of, were there people staying over, children over-nighting at your place that you can recall?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: It would have been far more likely then than at any other time, Mr Chair, because of the academic year at the University of Botswana.  The University of Botswana, their academic year runs according to the British system, with the result that we would have written our examinations and we would have finished them by about the beginning of May, towards maybe the first week of May, we would have finished our examinations then.  In other words, for the last three weeks of May, it would have been far more likely that there would have been children there than at any other time of the year because both Mike and I were then free in the sense that we didn't have exams, we didn't have the normal kind of study pressure, etc, etc and we would then have had time to look after the children.  It would especially have been more likely in the case of Ms Mbethe's children, because her husband was a lecturer at the University and at that stage, would have been busy marking exam papers and the children would then have especially then have spent time with us to give Bra Willy the time to mark his papers.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure that I get a picture, because when I asked you the question the first time round, you referred to an occasion where Ms Mbethe's children holidayed with your for a period of 10 days.  Do you remember that as an occasion?  How regularly?  This is really my question, how regularly were they staying over, kids staying over?  Was that every night, four, five, six nights a week?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No, it wasn't every night.  It was occasional.  Their parents, like I say, Bra Willy might have been busy with exam papers, or Baleka would sometimes leave the country and I was the natural choice to look after the children.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR COETSER: I have no questions thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Let me just understand this on this issue that you've just testified about.  Just tell us again how long before the raid did you leave that house and went to live somewhere else?