Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

GARY JOHN KRUSER: May I have the page again, can I have the page?

MR PRETORIUS: The page that I've read from you now is page -starts from page 2746 and carries on on page 2747.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The question is posed:  "And was there fire, apart from the automatic fire?'"  I said:  "There could have been" it was difficult for me to make a judgement now on
that.

MR PRETORIUS: When you were however questioned and asked was it your impression at the time that those shots were aimed in your direction, those shots referred to the automatic fire that you heard and it referred - and you then testified that that is the shot from that automatic fire, a shot struck the window.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's my impression of the events Mr Chairman.

MR PRETORIUS: I then put it to you Mr Kruser that it is very clear that the very first shots that were fired that morning was fired by Mr Eddie Khumalo who was practically next to you or immediately in front of you and it was fired with an AK47?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is not my recollection, Mr Chairman.

MR PRETORIUS: Or do you dispute the ballistic evidence now?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't dispute the ballistic evidence.

MR PRETORIUS: Then you ex...[intervention]

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't say who fired first does it?  I can't imagine ballistics evidence being able to say who fired first, when.

MR PRETORIUS: This witness testified Mr Chairman, that there was a burst of automatic fire that was the very shots that were fired on that day and he deducted that those - that shots were fired at him because of the shot that struck the window.  Now if that was the very first shot, that were fired, Mr Chairman and the ballistics states that the shot that struck the window was fired actually by Mr Eddie Khumalo who fired with an AK47 which is common cause, it would then mean that the very first shots that were fired was fired by Mr Eddie Khumalo which was immediately in front of him, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I don't know whether you have a copy of the record before you?  May I just read out what is said?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos I think you can when you re-examine.
Yes please.

CHAIRPERSON: It's being put to you that the very first shot that was fired that day was with an automatic rifle that was fired by Eddie Khumalo, it was that burst of fire that damaged the window at that time, at that moment.  That's what's being put to you because that is what appears on the record.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman, as I say, I can just give my impression of that day - it's clear even from the ballistic evidence, my impression that day wasn't in fact of what happened, I can't say whether that was the first, maybe the fire was simultaneously, I don't know, I can only say what I recollected after the event itself, I can't now - I can accede that the ballistics says the shot was from Eddie Khumalo but I can't concede anything else, they must provide me with evidence to say I must concede to anything else.

CHAIRPERSON: What you're really contending is that whatever is said in the transcript of the inquest proceedings in so far as your evidence is concerned, that you abide by that, is that what you're?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: What I'm saying, what I said there is what when I recollect the events and that's what I understood happened.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, you also accept now that not a single shot by the marchers were fired in the direction of the ANC guards where they had positioned themselves on the corner of King George and Plein Streets.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The ballistics says no shots hit the building anywhere in our vicinity but it did hit other parts of the building.

MR PRETORIUS: And none of the guards were injured or shot Mr Kruser?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: So if we take it correct together that there were no shots that hit any building or structure in the vicinity of the guards and the guards themselves were not injured or shot, then there were no shots that could be found and you also accepted that in your supplementary affidavit because you there even went to far as to state that you accept that the shots were directed elsewhere?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Now Mr Kruser, according to your evidence in the inquest court, you only gave the order to fire warning shots after the bullet struck the window in the vicinity of the ANC guards, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, if you could not even hear or even now testify to the fact that we know now is established is a fact that before you gave the warning shots or the order to fire the warning shots, Mr Khumalo who was directly in front of you, fired shots?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I can only say what I recollect on that day, there's no evidence to say that it was the first shot, I don't - give me evidence to say that it was the first shot.  I can only say what I recollect on that day.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, I did not even refer to the first shot now, I referred to a stage before you gave the order to fire warning shots, do you understand that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I understand that.

MR PRETORIUS: Now if you could not at the inquest at court when you testified there or not even now recollect or testify as a fact that Mr Eddie Khumalo shot or fired shots with his AK47 before you gave the order to fire warning shots, how can you give evidence to the fact that shots emanated from the crowd?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman, I can only give evidence to what I recollect on that day, I can't give evidence for anything else, that's what I saw on that day, that's my impression what happened and that's the evidence I gave at the inquest and that's the evidence I can give to this Committee.  However, there is objective evidence which doesn't confer with my recollection of the events and I accept that but I can't testify to anything else.

MR PRETORIUS: But Mr Kruser what I am testing is what value can one place on your evidence that shots were emanated from the crowd?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: What I'm saying is, under that intensity, if I speak with my colleagues, every single one of us have a different impression of what happened in those few seconds, so I don't see anything I've said about the fact is that what I saw, that's what I saw that's what I'm going to testify it to, I can't change my testimony because that's my recollection.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, to cut it short, do you accept that if you cannot even recollect or give evidence to the fact that shots were fired from an AK47 one metre in front of you where you can even see the person in front of you with an AK47 - I put it to you then that one can place no value whatsoever on your evidence that shots emanated from the crowd which was at that ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, there is no evidence that Mr Khumalo was in front of him, he was near him on the ground, not in front of him, Mr Chairman.

MR PRETORIUS: The evidence was that he was on the ground in front of him.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Kruser, I will then repeat my statement.  Do you accept then that if you cannot even give evidence or testify to the fact that Mr Eddie Khumalo, who was on the ground in front of you in a position where you even could see him, shot or fired shots with an AK47?  One cannot place any value on your evidence that shots emanated from the crowd.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The first point, Mr Chairman, is that Eddie Khumalo was flat, my attention was at the crowd, I was in command I had to make an assessment of what was happening from the crowd so I would not be able to see him directly.
	The second point is, I can only - and I want to reiterate -I can only testify to what I recollect happened on that day.  Might not be the true facts but that is my recollection and I can only tell the Committee of what I understood to have happened on that day.