Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I may have said - I may say so because that was my job.

MR PRIOR: Alright, but now the Golf Club matter occurred on the 28th November 1992  and you applied for amnesty, well you applied for amnesty in the St James matter which was July 93.  So this matter, the King William's Town Golf Course was the first matter that you were called to assist in where whites were killed or people were killed - is that not correct?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: That is not so.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying you were involved in other matters where people were killed but you haven't applied for amnesty for those matters?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: These are the only two matters I was involved in, there are no others.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you listen to Mr Prior's question?  He said that the Golf Course matter was the first matter that you were called to assist in where whites were killed and your reply was that is not so.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: My first operation as a member of APLA was the one of the Golf Club before the one at St James.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I was just trying to explore what you had in your mind when you were called to go to Tembasa.  If you knew at that stage you were going to kill whites, then you must have been told about the operation or something about the operation in Transkei before you left.  That's what I'm driving at because your previous activities was simply to drive comrades around the country side not to kill people.  So my question is - were you told, if you say you came across the Kei to kill whites in the Republic, what were you told before you left, what was your mission going to be - you must tell us about that please?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: When I left Umtata, Comrade Tsetomelo, may be repeated this, Comrade Tsetmelo said I must board a taxi and come to Tembasa at King William's Town next to Nick's Food.  There I'll find Comrade Xundu, the one I found when got to King William's Town next to Nick's Food.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you said when you gave your evidence about this first, you said you were told to go quickly to Tembasa is that correct?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: When I left Umtata I was given money by Comrade Mandla to board a taxi to Tembasa where I was to meet Umafrica Thembelani Xundu next to Nick's Food.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told to go there quickly?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you say that in your evidence in chief?  You really must be careful about what you say and not say things that you subsequently deny.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mlambisa, is it not true that were in fact told before you left what your mission was, you were going to kill white people in a certain area.  That's why you gave up that evidence and really if you're making full disclosure doesn't really effect your application, it may probably strengthen your application so there's no trick to it.  These questions are being asked to see whether you're telling us the full truth.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: As, Advocate Prior, I'm telling you I did not know the mission, I only got to know about the mission on the day of the operation.

MR PRIOR: Alright, I just want to ask you finally, was there any plan in place if the mission had been a failure in other words if something had gone wrong on the operation what was the strategy, what were you supposed to do as the driver of the vehicle.  In other words, let me give you a more concrete example.  The operation was carried out as if the King William's Town Golf Club was a military target.  If resistance had been met there, let's say your comrades who had entered the premises had been shot and been prevented from coming out, what did you have to do as the driver?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I have a problem with the way the question is given in Xhosa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think he does not get the interpretation, I think if Mr Prior can - his question can - shorten his questions so that he can understand it.

MR PRIOR: Alright, let me shorten the question.  Was there any alternative plan should anything have gone wrong at King William's Town Golf Club and if there was tell us what the plan was?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I was a force member on the ground.  As forces on the ground don't get briefed by comrades of APLA I knew nothing about the operation at the Golf Club until the day we were supposed to go on the attack at the Golf Club that's when we were told.  We went to a final recognisance before the attack could be undertaken on, that's where we were told how the attack is going to be carried on.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying there was no alternative plan, plan B as we normally refer to it, in case something went wrong?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Unfortunately there was no alternative plan.

MR PRIOR: Is that because and I want to suggest to you that your recognisance had indicated that this was a soft target, there was no anticipated resistance there?  Is that right?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I do not think there's a soft target in a white suburb.

MR PRIOR: Are you denying what I'm putting to you, you can admit or deny it?  I'm suggesting to you that that was the position - seems to be the position because you had no alternative plan, I mean you're a military unit, there was no alternative plan because you weren't expecting any resistance there.  Is that correct?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: To answer that, Mr Chairman, that I expected or did not expect and prepared an alternative, I did not know a thing about that.  I only know that I was a member on the ground and mine was to do the job of the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army under the commands of my instructors.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.  May I enquire from the victims whether any one wants to ask questions.  No questions forthcoming, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairman.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.
	Mr Mlambisa, did you have to use the gun that you had on 
you on that night?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: For security of my soldier comrades if there was a problem arising I had to use it.
ADV. GCABASHE: The question is did you in fact use it, did you have to use it, did you use it?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No I never used it.
ADV. GCABASHE: Another question I have is - were their people hanging around outside when you were driving by slowly as you waited for your comrades?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No there was nobody moving around there.
ADV. SANDI: Mr Mlambisa, do you have a code name or any other name that you use?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: That was used for me you say sir?
ADV. SANDI: Yes.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes I had it.
ADV. SANDI: What was that name?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Mbumi.
ADV. SANDI: Any other name other than Mbumi?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes I have it.
ADV. SANDI: Give the name please?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: In Cape Town I was Aubrey.
ADV. SANDI: Did you use any other name in Cape Town?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Those are the only two names.
ADV. SANDI: The first one was Mtumi, M.t.u.m.i?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: M.b.u.m.i.e. depending M.p.u.m.i.
ADV. SANDI: Where did you use that name?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I used it when I was here in Tembasa.
ADV. SANDI: Otherwise in Cape Town you were known as Aubrey?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes.

MR LAX: Just one little issue, the first operation that you were going to go on that was postponed, you remember that one?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes I remember it.

MR LAX: Now, in fact there are two different aspects arising out of that but I'll deal with the first one.
ADV. GCABASHE: Just for clarity, were you going to go on that because that's the question that was asked?  That you were going to go on?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: And you did in fact go on it?  Correct?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: We never proceeded with that one because that operation was suspended.