Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

MR MALUSI: My instructions from Mr Gasmeni are to the effect that he was part of the group that was initially shot, but when the first two were dropped off, he was not dropped off, he was then taken with the four that were later shot at.  Mr Guleni, if we could get back to the point.  I was asking are you now saying someone was stabbed during the course of this incident?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I cannot say someone was stabbed or not.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone was not on.

MR MALUSI: If I can refer you to page 48 of the Bundle.

INTERPRETER: The last answer is not yet on ...

FUNDISELE GULENI: I just wanted to give that picture.  The place where it was suggested that they be stabbed, was quite a distance from where we were, and that was not successful.  That is why we had to finish up the job somewhere else.  Those people were at a distance,  but at the same area, (indistinct), but I cannot say what happened there where this was taking place, because we were still with the others who were still alive at the time.

MR MALUSI: If I get your answer correctly now, you are saying you were left with the two APLA members who were the first to be dropped off, you do not know exactly what happened to the four who were to be silenced later on?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is not what I am saying.   We were with these survivors, these APLA members.  It was suggested that they be stabbed and the others were in Mzwandile's car that was at a distance from where we were and the aim was for  the people who were with us, not to know what was happening there on the other side, but we couldn't execute that plan or go on with that suggestion, leaving the other people who were injured and go and shoot the other people somewhere else.

MR MALUSI: Mr Guleni, let's not labour the point, the Judge had warned you earlier that just confine yourself to answering a question as simply as you can.  My question is simply this, that according to your testimony no one was stabbed during the entire course of this incident, would you agree that no one was stabbed, or don't you know if anyone was stabbed at all?  A simple yes or no would suffice?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I do not know whether anyone was stabbed there or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You certainly gave me the impression at least earlier today, when you testified that there was a discussion as to whether they should be shot or be stabbed, and it was decided that they would be stabbed, and you even went on to say that the person who had caused the problem, I forget his name now, was then instructed to do the stabbing.  Do you recall you told us that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not see him stab these people?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I did not see him stabbing.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you then when this was supposed to have been happening?

FUNDISELE GULENI: This place is in the same vicinity but from where we were, we couldn't see the car, because we were in some bushy area.

MR MALUSI: You would like the Committee to believe that you were left with the two members who were initially injured in the shooting by Mqiza, you do not know exactly what happened with the four other APLA members, is that what you would like the Committee to believe?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I know what happened to the four people, APLA members.

MR MALUSI: If you know what happened to them, can you say categorically that they were stabbed or were they not stabbed, that is all I am asking you?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I can say that a decision was taken to stab them and it was said that they were not going to be stabbed at one place, to avoid the screaming and the other people who were in the car, were going to do that and I was still with these other people.  If that plan was successful, even the others would be fetched and stabbed at that particular place, but a report came that it was impossible to stab these people and it was suggested that they should be finished off somewhere else.

MR MALUSI: Mr Guleni, my instructions from Mr Gasmeni are that although he was injured, his recollection of the incident is that the two members who were initially left behind, the two who were the first to get injured, were just dropped off without any guard and then the bakkie moved off with the other four members who had survived, what is your comment to that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I agree with that statement, that is correct.   Yes, he was taken because this plan of stabbing them failed, meaning that these four APLA members were taken with, because they were going to be finished off by shooting, because we couldn't stab them.

MR MALUSI: Yes.  Were you in the bakkie when the bakkie left with the four APLA members, were you there in the bakkie?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I was in the bakkie.

MR MALUSI: Before the four APLA members were finally shot, were they stabbed at all?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I do not remember seeing anyone with a stab wound.

MR MALUSI: My instructions from Mr Gasmeni are that whilst they were in the bakkie, the four of them, they were actually stabbed.  He showed me at least five stab wounds on his back before they were shot.  They were stabbed by members of your group, do you remember seeing that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I do not remember seeing wounds.  I did not see whether they were stabbed or what.

MR MALUSI: The question may seem obvious, but now with your testimony it is not so obvious, what are you applying amnesty for with respect to this Port St Johns incident, the killing of the five APLA members, what is it exactly that you would like the Committee to give you amnesty for?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I apply for amnesty for the following, shooting of the members, APLA members and killing them and to hide their bodies.  Those are the offences that I apply amnesty for.

MR MALUSI: But first with regard to the shooting, you did not take any part in the shooting, according to your testimony?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALUSI: With regard to the burial or the concealment of the bodies of the deceased, according to you, you were just standing aside, you did not dig the graves, you did not put in the bodies, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.  I was never involved in the digging, but I was involved when we went to fetch the tools and the other people were digging and I was there, guarding the place, that was my role.

MR MALUSI: So in brief, you are saying to the Committee "I did not do these things, I was there, but I ask the Committee to give me amnesty"?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't one interpretation of his evidence that he is guilty on the basis of common purpose?  That he kept watch while the others did all these things?  Doesn't his criminal liability flow from that?

MR MALUSI: It may well flow from that, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that he did not do anything, he participated in the event which may or may not make him guilty of something?

MR MALUSI: That is why earlier on in my questioning of the applicant, I asked him specifically does he associate himself with these events, because I had that in mind.  I beg your pardon.  A final question sir, Mr Guleni, I want to put it to you that in the killing of the five APLA members, you had no political objective, the killing was purely personal on the part of your group.  It was an attempt to avoid prosecution?  What is your comment to that proposition?