Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

MR LAX: Sorry, I asked this question yesterday of Mr Burger, were they prioritised in terms of possible actions?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, it was purely a list of names.  There was no proposal in any way and in comparison to an external target, an external target could point to summary elimination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now page 12, entry of the 15th of March
"Joe Nhlanhla (N-h-l-a-n-h-l-a) linked to the name Socrates"
Mr Nhlanhla is currently a Cabinet Minister, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I'm not sure, I'm not sure what his post is.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What was your interest in him?

WOUTER J BASSON: It was an external operation, it was information which I assume I got from an indirect member, namely Socrates.  I can't remember more information than that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that in Zambia?  Kabwata?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right, turn the page.  The "box of handgrenades", under the heading
"Josh"
What was the purpose of obtaining those grenades?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, the entry - all the entries on this page deal with an external operation.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And that includes the equipment prepared, including
"Tire/limpet"

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What does "tire" mean there?  T-i-r-e.

WOUTER J BASSON: I can't tell you now specifically.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The following page, 14
"19 of April - Bert"
with reference to Staal Burger?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I looked at this yesterday as well, but I have no explanation for that entry.

CHAIRPERSON: What does it say in the next entry?
MR BASSON
"O for Jaco - detail"
Perhaps that related to the person Jaco.

CHAIRPERSON: But it's also for Bert?

WOUTER J BASSON: Ja, but Bert possibly knew somebody in whom Jaco was interested in respect of computer viruses.  That's a possible inference.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now passports and ID documents, were you able to obtain false passports?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And false identification?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The members of Region 6, did they have ID books in their administrative names?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Mr Burger or any one of his three members were never issued with an alias passport or identity document.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What would happen with foreign travel?  Do you travel under your own name, your real name?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Doesn't that immediately compromise your cover?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson I must be honest, there was a stage when we discussed the possibility that false identities had to be obtained for the members and later this was rejected as a result of the exposure which they had in the public eye and the decision was that the risk was too high to take and that was the reason why that was abandoned.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The entry on page 15, 21 April
"No passport for criminal outside by Foreign Affairs"
What's that referring to?

WOUTER J BASSON: I suppose that came from Mr Verster, where perhaps somebody in one of the other regions wanted to obtain a passport for somebody with a criminal background and that Home Affairs gave guidelines and said no, they're not prepared to do that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So someone like Mr Aitchison for example, they wouldn't be very keen to give him a South African passport?

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now the same page, the
"Detonators for the handgrenades from Hekkies"
what's that for?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz.
	That Foreign Affairs passport thing, was this Foreign Affairs telling Special Forces "Don't issue", did they know that you were issuing false passports to operatives and then telling you, you can do it sort of thing, but not with criminals?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, that should be Home Affairs, not Foreign Affairs.  There was a channel, I'm not sure who the person was, there was an official channel to Home Affairs where, I must say there was control over that.  No alias document was made without the person's real details also being linked to this alias document.  And it is possible that the instruction came from Home Affairs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Turn the page, page 16.
"Nico Bessenger ..."
next to the words:
"Region 6"

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I think there was an attempt to find ways in which an approach could be made to Mr Bessenger or we could get closer to Mr Bessenger.  I - well, that's an external project.

MR LAX: Just as a matter of interest, why were you using Region 6 to achieve an external project?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, they could also be used externally.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just one question while I see this.  At the bottom there where you've got "salaries" and you've got the four people concerned, now we've heard that salaries were paid out in hard cash, now one person here has signed for the four of them, it looks like Calitz or something like that.

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now he would have then walked away with a bundle of cash, how would the other people know how much exactly was for them, seeing that there's amounts like 25c, 41c involved?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, the money was sealed in a white envelope and on the outside the amounts were noted as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so it wasn't just a whole pile of notes?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, it was specifically set out and the person was entrusted with handing over the other members' salaries.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just while we're on that, why wasn't this cut out and put in a file?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I can't tell you why.

MR LAX: You would have expected it to because it's an official signature ...

WOUTER J BASSON: I understand what you're saying.  Because it didn't refer to a specific project name, that might be the reason.  Because there had to be project files to place the documentation on and this is a financial matter which was not linked to a project.

MR LAX: Yes, but there were personal files for each of these individuals and you would have had to show proof that they'd been paid, in the file, otherwise your accounting records would have been haywire.

WOUTER J BASSON: You're quite correct, it was in my book, I didn't cut it out.

MR LAX: You see, elsewhere in this document there's another place where each of them signed, for example.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, it depended on the circumstances, perhaps the others just weren't available.

MR LAX: Ja but then your explanation previously given that the reasons why things were cut out was because they had to be put in files doesn't make sense, if in this instance here the specifics aren't cut out and put in other people's personal files, for example.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I don't have another answer.  Those things that were cut out I think dealt more with projects for which there were specific files and not in the case of this kind of administration.

MR LAX: But it's obviously something you didn't specifically apply in a rigid fashion?

WOUTER J BASSON: I can't give you an answer.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now the amounts being paid out to the various people in Region 6 for their salaries, we were told if I understood the evidence correctly, it was a fixed monthly salary.

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And I'm open to correction, but I recall Mr - let me ask you the question this way, did you deduct PAYE before you paid out the salary?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I'm not sure how the system worked.  I would presume that it wasn't done, that the person had to take the money and within his coverage of the Blue Plan he had to accommodate it in that and his personal tax was his own responsibility.  That is the way I see it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well if I was to work on the basis of Mr van Zyl's statement, Mr van Zyl said in his statement his salary was approximately R3 500 per month.

WOUTER J BASSON: Alright.