Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: "project, which at this stage will probably need quite a bit of fine tuning, and the success of the project will depend largely on mutual co-operation and trust.  It is not headquarters' intention that these teams take over your work, or to function independently in your units.  In order to avoid confusion the following guidelines are established.  The placing and withdrawal of teams will be dealt with by a senior officer of Group C in consultation with the relevant commander.  As soon as a team has been placed out the senior member must report to the commanding officer.  The team will, for the duration of their stay in a unit, be under the command and control of the regional commanding officer.  The team must be used exclusively to help with the tracing, arrest and identification of terrorists.  If you have identified any defects, or have any proposals for improvements, we would be glad to hear from you.  Your personal involvement in this project will be highly appreciated."

MR JANSEN: Could you comment to the Committee in respect of that directive, firstly as far as the directive says that Vlakplaas - the Vlakplaas units must at all times operate under the control of the various divisional or regional

MR JANSEN: /offices,

MR JANSEN: offices, firstly, and secondly, the purpose of these teams.

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.  First, Mr Chairman, I should comment that whilst in headquarters every morning at half past seven you would report to your section head, each lot of section officers at half past seven, which would then report at 8 o'clock, the section heads again, to the officer commanding, General Johan Coetzee and his second in charge, Brigadier Jan du Preez, and this 8 o'clock meeting they called the "Sanhederin," which is called after Jewish religious movement or something.  Now, in the same way during those meetings you were briefed and debriefed on the 24 hours past, what happened and what should be done in the next 24 hours.  In the same way, if I was down in Durban, for instance, I would report every morning at half past seven to the regional commander of the Security Police in the area for instructions, to brief him on what has happened over the 24 hours, and he would brief me on any further instructions or things that he wanted me to do.

MR JANSEN: And as far as the directive says that the units should only be used for the tracing and arrest of the mentioned terrorists?

WITNESS:   That in theory was the case, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: In the five months of your time at Vlakplaas which it was operational after - since August 1981, how many so-called insurgents, or how many insurgents were in fact arrested?

WITNESS:   One only, Mr Chairman, and it was so insignificant.  It happened on the Western Transvaal border, just off Kopfontein Hak border gate, where Captain Koos Vermeulen picked up a hitch-hiker who turned out to be an ANC cadre.  But it was so insignificant that I the

MR JANSEN: /next day

MR JANSEN: next day couldn't even remember the name, and he was handed apparently over to the local branch for further investigation.

MR JANSEN: You were asked about this incident during the Harms Commission.  Could you remember it?

WITNESS:   I couldn't remember it at all.  I think it was a name that was mentioned to me, but if they had referred to a specific incident where Captain Koos Vermeulen had picked up a hitch-hiker, and the next day a shoot-out occurred on a farm in a koppie - behind the house on a farm very near to Kopfontein Hak, where Koos Vermeulen used to pitch camp whilst working in the area, I would have remembered it then, yes.

MR JANSEN: Now, what according to you was the reality?  What did Vlakplaas in fact do, the units?

WITNESS:   Well, I was only executing orders as far as dirty tricks were concerned, which involved stealing cars, murdering people, harassing people, anything but legal police work or as indicated in the directive.

MR JANSEN: Did you ever receive written instructions?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  Never, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Did you ever make a written report about your activities?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  Never, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: You did once make a written report relating to the incident of Mr Selby Mavusa, also called Vusi in your manuscript.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: What was the nature and the purpose of that report?

WITNESS:   I think it was at a stage that I already had left the Security Police, when his lawyer got inquisitive as to his whereabouts, and then has written a letter to the

MR JANSEN: /Security

MR JANSEN: Security Police headquarters, and I then had to file a statement to say that he has worked with us for three  months and then just disappeared off the face of the earth, and we believe that he must have gone back to the African National Congress.  So it was to mislead, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his name again?

WITNESS:   Vusi.  Was he called Vusi Vumasela, or ... (incomplete)

MR JANSEN: Oh, Selby Mavusa.

WITNESS:   Oh, Selby Mavusa, but we called him Vusi, Mr Chairman.  And that instruction I got from Brigadier Skoon.

MR JANSEN: Did you or did any of your members at Vlakplaas possess these well known - ordinarily well known police books?

WITNESS:   Not at all, Mr Chairman.  The pocket books we kept in the vehicles was for writing in your petrol intake at different police stations only, and for no other purpose.

MR JANSEN: Did you ... (incomplete - end of Tape 1) ... at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not required to?

WITNESS:   I were not required to keep a diary, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Was the activities of Vlakplaas in any way audited by the senior or other structures in the police?  In other words to ascertain the extent to which you were now fulfilling your official purpose of arresting insurgents?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  Not whatsoever, Mr Chairman.  The only audit that would take place was my standing advance, which was ... (inaudible) ... a person from the Auditor-General's office, and he was usually entertained with a party on Vlakplaas, and that wouldn't have been a big - a problem.

MR JANSEN: Now, if I may also ask you at this stage, did the

MR JANSEN: /Section C1

MR JANSEN: Section C1 have any connections, or the Security Police headquarters, did it have any special connection with military intelligence at the time?

WITNESS:   Yes, Mr Chairman.  We had in the same office at the time myself, Colonel J H Buchner, who later became the Commissioner of Police in KwaZulu-Natal, Lieutenant Colonel H D Baker, Trevor Baker, Lieutenant-Colonel Rolf van Rensburg, myself, and a Captain Willie Botha.  There was an additional desk for a military intelligence officer, Major Kallie Steyn, who he would not occupy every day, but only when they were planning a cross-border raid into Angola or Mozambique.  Then him and Colonel Buchner would frequently meet and plan the raid, crawling over aerial maps of the area and making use of the information that they got from the askaris at Vlakplaas.

MR JANSEN: In all the illegal activities that you were involved in in the Security Police were you ever caught by the ordinary police or the CID and charged?

WITNESS:   Never, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Were any disciplinary steps ever taken against you for any of your activities?

WITNESS:   Not at all, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: The Pillay incident, the abduction of Mr Pillay, became known to your seniors.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR JANSEN: Were you ever charged disciplinarily for that incident?

WITNESS:   Not even mentioned.  Never, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: As far as you know in your time at the Security Police do you know of a single case where a court inquest or a death inquest found the police having been responsible for the murder of somebody?

WITNESS:   No, never, not the Security Police as far as I can remember.

MR JANSEN: /Did you