Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-04

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time, it could even have been him who was going to shoot him, not so?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Will you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time you helped kidnap him, no one knew who was going to shoot him, correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I also did not know who was going to shoot him because that was not discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it could even have been you that would have been instructed later to shoot him?  You knew that?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I did not know because we had only two AK47 rifles and one pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were armed with one of them, one of the firearms?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, I was armed with an AK47 rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: And if the Commander have ordered you to shoot him, you would have done so?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the fact that someone was told or someone else shot him, didn't matter, you agreed with that, not so?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We knew that IFP members, whenever they get hold of you as an SDU member, you would be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that was the reason for him being kidnapped, correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, all these things that occurred to the victim, as I understand your evidence, you associated yourself with that, not so?  Everything that happened to him?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, I associated myself with all these activities because I was forced by the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That is attempted murder, the kidnapping, the assault.  You yourself pointed a firearm at him, and you were in possession of a firearm illegally, correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Nhlayisi, I don't recall us dealing with the (indistinct)

UNKNOWN: Yes Mr Chairperson, we are coming to a second incident involving the same person, but which happened in a house.  That is where the malicious damage to property come in.
	Yes, there is another attempted murder on the second incident, on the same person.  It relates to the same person, but this time it happened in a certain house.

CHAIRPERSON: ... attempted murders, yes.  Then I need to find out also the incident you are now describing or that you have just described, when did that happen?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: In 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you be more specific?  I will tell you why, we are now being told there are two incidents and if we, we are going to have to decide on both and we need to identify each by way of a relatively ascertainable date, maybe a month or something.

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Did both happen in the same month?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: On page 220 there is an indication that it was September 1993?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I cannot remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you be able to dispute that it was September 1993?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, I cannot dispute that because I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  The first incident that you have described already, would that have occurred in the early part of September or the later portion of September?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I think it was towards September.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but when in September?  Early in September or late in September?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Proceed.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Motjale, can you remember when we consulted with you and your other colleague, you mentioned that the first incident that you have related here, occurred in September and the second one, occurred a week thereafter.  Do you still confirm that?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Okay, let's come to the second incident where Qobani was shot at in a certain house at Xaba Street.  Could you relate to the Committee what transpired on that day?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: It was found out that Qobani did not sustain injuries.  He went back.  It was discovered that Qobani did not die or sustain injuries as he was shot.  One of us, Quambi, told us that Qobani was at Xaba Street.

UNKNOWN: Where is this Xaba Street, is it in your Section, in Mlungeni Section?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, it is at Mlungeni Section.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  In your application form on page 220 you mention that the house there, it is 2190 Xaba Street, however during our consultation you realised that you have made a mistake, the house number there is 2192 Xaba Street, do you confirm that, where this particular incident took place?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.   Yes.

UNKNOWN: Okay, after you had received this information that Qobani has been seen at this particular house, number 2192 Xaba Street, what happened then?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Our Commander told us again that the person was around.  I cannot remember but I think he was told by a certain woman who was staying there.

UNKNOWN: You do not know the identity of this particular woman who gave the information to your Commander, is that correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, we got that information from our Commander that this person was seen in that street.

UNKNOWN: Okay, so after you were told that Qobani has been seen at Xaba Street, what were the instructions?  What were you commanded to do then?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: The Commander told us to kill this person, the person was no longer needed in the community, because the IFP people, they killed any SDU member if he can set his or her foot at Penduka Section.  He gave us two AK47, we were three, and he told us to go and kill that person.

UNKNOWN: You were three, who were the other two people with you?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: It was myself, Themba and Mswazi.

UNKNOWN: When you are referring to Mswazi, you are referring to Mswazi Puncumalo who has also applied for amnesty, is that correct?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Where is Themba at present?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He passed away.

UNKNOWN: So the three of you were given these instructions to go to this particular house?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: You set off, what happened on your arrival there?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We knocked at the door, someone asked, enquired as to who was at the door, and a friend of mine said my name is Peter, that was Themba.  Themba said he was Peter.

UNKNOWN: Was it at night?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes, it was at night.

UNKNOWN: Okay, then what happened after this person inside has enquired about your identity?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: He did not open the door.  He or she did not open the door.  We knocked for a short time.  The door was not opened.  There was a padlock outside that was used to lock the door.
	Themba shot at the padlock, because we knew that there were people inside.  When he shot at this padlock, the door couldn't open still.

UNKNOWN: What happened, did you leave after the door could not open?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: No, we did not leave.  We waited for a while, we wanted to see if they were going to open the door.
	We went to the front door and the front door was also locked.  He broke the window pane at the bedroom, the one that was on the left hand side.

UNKNOWN: Before you proceed, sorry, you are saying he broke a window.  You were with two people, who broke the window?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Themba is the one who broke the window before the shooting.

UNKNOWN: Okay, then what did you do?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: I shot directing at the kitchen window.

UNKNOWN: After this shooting, did you manage at any stage to gain access into the house?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: We shot directing at all the windows, after that we opened the window.  I was told to get inside first, in the kitchen.
	When I got inside, Qobani appeared with a spear.

UNKNOWN: He was inside the house?

SAKILE JETHRO MOTJALE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Okay, what happened?  You still had your firearm at that stage when you got inside the house, through the window?