Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

ADV NYOKA: It has been alleged that no less drastic illegal measures were adopted but Mrs Godolozi said that in 1984 - before the UDF and AZAPO feud, her husband's car was burnt down, did you know about that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I know of the fact that Godolozi's vehicle was burnt.

ADV NYOKA: Who burnt it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: What I ...[intervention]

ADV NYOKA: Let me put it this way, did the security police have anything to do with the burning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, those were attacks in the feud between AZAPO and UDF.

ADV NYOKA: My instructions are that there were no such feud, unless my client is wrong.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was the case.   I just want to explain to you, the house of Mr Fazi, Mr Ngoi's house - who is here, Mrs Gina's house was attacked - the feud between and that is why Mr Hashe's son was arrested and detained by the unrest unit, 34 of them were on their way in two minibuses to attack Mr Mkwena, that's what I can recollect.

ADV NYOKA: You had all the expertise to monitor and do such things, it's easier for you to blame someone else like AZAPO, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, we just handled both spectrums.

ADV NYOKA: Why did you choose the spot at Kwazakele for the burning of the car?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: There were many vehicles - wrecks being there, who were burnt out there.

ADV NYOKA: But how did you get to know about that, I don't even know it myself that place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I know of this, there were many necklace murders committed there.

ADV NYOKA: Two applicants, Mr - the two applicants said there was a roadblock - or it was Mr Mamasela, after the group had left the airport at some stage and you denied that, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV NYOKA: Yes, two applicants.  Why will someone just say there was a roadblock if there was none - it had nothing to do with the abduction and murder?  Do you know?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: When I went to Cradock, I didn't see a roadblock.

ADV NYOKA: I wish to state that there could have been a roadblock just to ensure that the abduction group was not followed by uninvited persons, hence the roadblock?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I want to explain the following, during the Goniwe inquest in '93, there was an allegation made that there was a roadblock.  I assisted with the legal team representing the police and I ascertained that during that period in '85 there were no roadblocks on those routes as alleged, that is how I can recall.  And I did not see any roadblocks when I was on the way on the evening of the 8th, that is my knowledge.

ADV NYOKA: And Mr Venter, Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole said the three activists had their heads covered including Mr Beeslaar, you denied that that was the case.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I said earlier, their heads were not covered.

ADV NYOKA: Why would three people say so and mention this specific thing which is not ordinary if that is not true?  I have a difficulty with that.  Two of them are represented by one lawyer, the other two by separate lawyers and yet they say the same thing.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot comment on that, that is what I observed - I didn't see it.

ADV NYOKA: And you said that handcuffs - the activists were handcuffed to their camp beds.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV NYOKA: Are you seriously suggesting that the handcuffs were brought to Cradock only for that purpose or being handcuffed to the bed and not earlier on?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I'm a police official, I always have my handcuffs with me.

ADV NYOKA: So, you did not use them once you had them in your custody?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, all that I can remember in this particular incident was the morning where they were handcuffed to the beds, that's all that I can remember.  (transcriber's own translation)

ADV NYOKA: When you left your house for this mission you took the handcuffs consciously aware that you were going to use them but despite having taken them you, you did not use them at all except when the deceased had to sleep, is that what you're telling us?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, as I said I'm a police official, I always have my handcuffs in my attache case and it's a standing instruction with detainees according to the security legislation and they have to be handcuffed hands behind their backs - that is standing practice.

ADV NYOKA: But Mr Nieuwoudt, they were not being detained, they were not being arrested according to legislation, don't quote legislation because their so-called arrest was unlawful.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that was the case but I just want to explain to you, and that is that I didn't take my handcuffs specifically for a purpose, they're always in my possession - perhaps Mr Nyoka didn't understand my answer correctly.

ADV NYOKA: I will not argue with you, I do not know what you have in your briefcase.  Mr Beeslaar and Venter said they left for Cradock the following day, yet you said they were leaving Cradock for Port Elizabeth - two different versions, which is which?  Which one can you choose of the two?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I'm giving you the information that I have knowledge of, they were there, they stayed over the night and the next morning they departed from Post Chalmers.

ADV NYOKA: And again you said that - they said that there was braaing and drinking, you deny all that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was not a festive occasion, I do not use strong liquor so I deny it most strongly.

ADV NYOKA: What I want to know, was there weak and strong liquor but that you did not partake of strong liquor, was there weak liquor at all like beer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, and I know that Captain van Zyl would not have allowed that and that is why I can say quite positively that no alcohol was consumed at that occasion.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Nyoka.
	Mr Nieuwoudt, I thought yesterday you said - you used the words: "There was no strong liquor", what kind of liquor did you have if any liquor at all?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: We had tea which I used and cold drinks.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nieuwoudt, I don't know how the interpretation came through but I thought the witness would have said in Afrikaans: "There was no strong drinks", which actually doesn't mean strong liquor but ...[intervention]  (transcriber's own translation)

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Alcohol.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be that the interpretation came differently.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I'm sorry that I've confused you on that point Sir, but I mean alcoholic liquor.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV NYOKA: You see the strange coincidence is that Mr Dirk Coetzee said that in the Sizwe Kondile matter where the murder was being committed - when the murder was being committed, there was braai and drink - someone separate as if the modus operandi is the same.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot comment on that, I was involved with the Kondile case, I don't know Dirk Coetzee, I never worked with him.  I want to emphasis it once more that I wasn't involved in any operation in the Eastern Cape where such festive occasion or situation occurred at such an operation.  (transcriber's own translation)

ADV NYOKA: Maybe there was such a braai and drinks but you did not enjoy them, they were done so badly that you denied they were held at all?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Which braai do you refer to?

ADV NYOKA: The one that is being referred by Mr Beeslaar and Venter and Mr Mogoai and Koole, maybe the one who made the braai or drinks did it so badly that you deny that it was there - you need not answer to that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka, don't ask questions which you don't want witnesses to answer.

ADV NYOKA: No, I'm saying Mr Chairman, I anticipated a: "No comment", so I thought he would say: "No comment".
	Let's move on Mr Nieuwoudt.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Thank you Mr Nyoka.