Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR JOSEPH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  (...Indistinct) the documents which you have before you relating to statements or affidavits.  I understand that (...indistinct) refer you to affidavits (...indistinct) reached the last page of the second affidavit to the last page of the second bundle of documents.  The first affidavit, if you look at page 11, was (...indistinct) by a Major in the South African Police force.  The second affidavit is a more comprehensive affidavit, it deals with the matter (...indistinct) before this Committee.  There is, however, a third affidavit, I have made an enquiry from my learned friend, Mr Vally, who says he (...indistinct) that for some reason or other the third affidavit is not before you in the documents before you.  (...Indistinct) referring to that affidavit as well.
 I intend, subject to your permission and taking into account the lateness of the hour and the enormous work that this Committee has to (...indistinct) before Friday to (...indistinct) witnesses on matters which are (...indistinct) nature, a (...indistinct) nature and matters which they do not think are controversial and I will attempt to bring them to the issue (...indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct) appreciate (...indistinct) most (...indistinct).

MR JOSEPH: (...Indistinct) that (...indistinct).
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<UNKNOWN>: (...Indistinct) the two affidavits.  The (...indistinct) by (...indistinct) (end of tape 4a).

MR VALLY: Thank you.  Is it the one, ... (intervention).

MR JOSEPH: The last page, is signed on the fifth of August 1997 before a Notary Public in England?
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<UNKNOWN>: (...Indistinct)

MR VALLY: We are trying to find the date.  We do have the second one, yes.  If you could just please describe the third one to us.

MR JOSEPH: The third affidavit is best described as being a combined affidavit, an affidavit deposed to by both Mr Cebekhulu and the Baroness.  The body of the affidavit is in the first person of Ms, of Baroness Nicholson and Mr Cebekhulu as opposed to what we would call a confirmatory affidavit.

MR VALLY: We did receive the third one as well.  I think we received it late yesterday or today. Is that the one which is an affidavit in the name of Ms Nicholson and is dated fifth of September 1997?

MR JOSEPH: The very first page of the affidavit is an affidavit deposed to by Katiza Cebekhulu and it is one page and it is dated the fifth of September 1997.  That is followed by a second document with the heading "Affidavit" and it begins,
"I, M Harriet Nicholson ...".
That affidavit is, do you have it.  May I then proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: You have got that, have you not?  Yes.

MR VALLY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Say again.

MR JOSEPH: Ja, it is the first one dated the fifth, the second one is also the fifth of September and then there is a third.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the third?

MR JOSEPH: In regard to the first affidavit, the affidavit which is witnessed by the Colonel in the South African Police Force, let me dispose of that affidavit now.

MR MPOFU: Chairperson, can I indicate, as far as we are able to see, we do not have a third affidavit.

MR JOSEPH: May I make available, to my learned friend, this affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR JOSEPH: ... to the witness to hand over to the, my learned friend her affidavit, this affidavit has notes.  In so far as the first affidavit is concerned, the one that was witnessed by the police officer, it covers certain areas of the evidence, it was an affidavit which was deposed to for the purposes of the police officer to answer his questions.  He, apparently, travelled to London to interview Mr Cebekhulu.
 The second and third affidavit are more comprehensive and I will attempt to follow the contents of those affidavits for the orderly running of this inquiry.  
EXAMINATION BY MR JOSEPH
Mr Cebekhulu, when were you born?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I was born in February 12, 1970.

MR JOSEPH: You were born on February the 12th 1970 in Natal, in Mpumalanga and you came to Johannesburg when?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: 1988.

MR JOSEPH: I understand you come from an impoverished background.  Your father had died some time ago ... (intervention).

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: ... and your mother was a very poor woman?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: When you arrived at, in Johannesburg, you travelled to Orlando.  Correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Did you come into contact with anybody of importance when you travelled to Orlando?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Can you repeat the question?

MR JOSEPH: Did you come into contact with anybody who was prominent, anybody who was of importance when you travelled to Orlando?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Who was that person?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Mrs Mandela.

MR JOSEPH: Mrs Mandela, I understand, was carrying out some function which is akin to that of a social worker and you met her in an office block, a two storey office block surrounded by razor wire called Community Centre.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Community House.

MR JOSEPH: Community House?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes, Sir.

MR JOSEPH: Were you taken to see Mrs Mandela?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: You spoke to Mrs Mandela?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Did she befriend you?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Did she take you into her house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: For how long did you live, from time to time, I am not suggesting every night that you slept there, but over what period of time were you a permanent resident in the house of Mrs Mandela?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I stayed in Mrs Mandela in 1988 to 89, 1990.

MR JOSEPH: 1990?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes, that is two and a half.

MR JOSEPH: Two and a half years, from August 1988 to February 1991.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: If you look at the affidavit, it is in front of you, it is paragraph four.  The house, you say, was a large house, there were staff houses, there was a compound, it had a jacuzzi.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Who lived within the confines of the main house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: In the main, I was living in the main house when I came.

MR JOSEPH: Yes, who else, Mrs Mandela and her family.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Which members of her family lived in that house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Zinzi Mandela.

MR JOSEPH: Any other member?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: And Themba.

MR JOSEPH: And Themba.  Now, you stayed in that house for more or less two and a half years.  Did you perform any functions in that house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: What type of functions did you perform?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I use to wake up in the morning to prepare the food for the children and then I had to clean the house, wash the car and clean the compound.

MR JOSEPH: Type of domestic work?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: And you slept in the main house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Now, I understand, well, let me not lead you.  Did you have any political affiliations which were strong, which were burning, which made you a member of any group?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: You were not a MK soldier, you were not a MK cadre, you were nothing at all?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: Now, we have heard about the Mandela United Football Club, this is made up of young men, whatever they did, we know that from time to time they frequented this house.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Did some of them live, on a permanent basis, in the house, I mean from time, I mean that they slept there, they had a place to sleep?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Were or were there not members of the Mandela United Football Club who were affiliated to any political grouping during that time?  Were there members of the Mandela United Football Club who were affiliated, who supported, who were members of any political formation in this country at that time?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.