Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-10

WITNESS:   I don't know their names, all of them, but they were policemen.

PROF MAGWAZA: The name of the Magistrate who was presiding on that particular day, what was the name of that Magistrate?

WITNESS:   I don't even know the Magistrate's name.

PROF MAGWAZA: Do you have any information on the court case, like the court case number or records?  What information - useful information do you have about that court case?

WITNESS:   We were not give any case numbers as well as details, we were just called to attend court.

PROF MAGWAZA: The court case was in Kroonstad Magistrate's Court?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

PROF MAGWAZA: Did you have any lawyers representing you?

WITNESS:   Yes, we did have an advocate, but I did not personally engage the service.  I don't know who helped us get an attorney.

PROF MAGWAZA: Would you know the name of that advocate?

WITNESS:   I don't know his name.

PROF MAGWAZA: Mama Tau, what actually helps us with investigations, and we are very much interested in this investigation because it was an unnecessary killing of a young person, and we would like to forward this case to the investigators, but what would help us is when we have information that would help the investigators.  If we don't have the information then it becomes very, very difficult for us to meet your request of finding out the people who killed your son.  Is there any other information you can help us with?

WITNESS:   There are witnesses who saw when this incident took place.  I think if these witnesses are needed they could be contacted because they are still alive.

PROF MAGWAZA: Can you please give us the name of those witnesses -the names of those witnesses?

WITNESS:   I can give his surname.  It's Mr Pohlela and Miss Blank.  They are the ones who were testifying in court.

PROF MAGWAZA: They are the ones who actually witnessed the killing?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are the ones who saw.

PROF MAGWAZA: Where are they staying, or where are they working?

WITNESS:   They stay in Pumulong.

PROF MAGWAZA: Would you be in a position to get more information from them, like their addresses, full addresses, and forward it to the Commission?

WITNESS:   I don't have them presently.

PROF MAGWAZA: You can do that at a later stage.

WITNESS:   Yes, I could attempt to do that.

PROF MAGWAZA: You also mentioned somebody by Sikoni Malebo, who picked up the body of your son and took it to the mortuary.  Where is Sikoni Malebo.

WITNESS:   Sikoni Malebo is still around.  He is the one who used to pick up the corpses during those times.

PROF MAGWAZA: Where is he now?  Where is he working, or where does he stay?

WITNESS:   He stays in town.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay.  Also we would like to get more information about him ... (inaudible) ... a very difficult thing to you, like the previous witness you also lost your son very tragically.  How has it changed your life, your life and that of your family?  Can you tell us briefly?

WITNESS:   I will say I am quite fine, I can cope, but my son's father was very much affected.  He's not even working at this moment.

PROF MAGWAZA: He stopped working after the death of your son?

WITNESS:   Yes, he had swollen feet, so he had to stop working.

PROF MAGWAZA: Is he getting any medical treatment?

WITNESS:   Yes, he is attending some treatment from Dr Louis Claassen.

PROF MAGWAZA: Who is paying for that treatment?

WITNESS:   I am paying for him.

PROF MAGWAZA: We would like to know more about Mzi Isaac's family.  You are the mother.  Are you working?

WITNESS:   Yes, I am employed.

PROF MAGWAZA: Where are you working?

WITNESS:   I work at Docker's House Creche.

PROF MAGWAZA: How many kids do you have?

WITNESS:   I had two boys and one girl.

PROF MAGWAZA: Now you have one boy, one girl.

WITNESS:   That is correct.

PROF MAGWAZA: And how old are they?

WITNESS:   Mohawu is 27 years old, Pretty is 20.

PROF MAGWAZA: Are they working?

WITNESS:   Mohawu started working in 1995. The other one?   ---   Pretty is in standard nine at Emotswela High School.

PROF MAGWAZA: Your husband is not working?

WITNESS:   (No reply interpreted)

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay, thank you very much, Mama.  We have noted your request and we have noted your pain.  I also heard you say you are quite fine, you are coping.  That's very important to us, because after this tragic death it's very difficult for most of the parents to cope, and probably there's some things we can learn from you as to how to cope when faced with such a difficult situation.  Again I think that indicates to us that you are very, very strong.  Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: We just want to clarify certain issues.  You spoke about Sikoni Malebo and you said he was collecting the corpses.  Is he an undertaker?

WITNESS:   He was a corpse collector.  He was collecting corpses in the street.

UNKNOWN: Who sent him to do that?  Was he doing it voluntarily?

WITNESS:   No, it's his job to do it, and he would take the corpses to the State mortuary.  He would take the corpses to the court mortuary.

UNKNOWN: Who was paying him?

WITNESS:   He was being paid by the Government, but he did not have his own undertaker.

UNKNOWN: What's his address?

WITNESS:   I don't have it presently, but you can get it later on.  He stays in town.

UNKNOWN: May I know, Mama, whether the death certificate is available?

WITNESS:   Yes, we do have a death certificate.

UNKNOWN: Do you have it with you today?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do have it with me.

UNKNOWN: Please give it to Ms Msomi next to you so that we can get a photocopy thereof when you leave from the desk.  And also, sorry, I couldn't - I missed the names of the detectives who came to your house to tell you about the days of the case.  Can you please repeat them?

WITNESS:   It's Mr Lihlu Nyana.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

WITNESS:   Mr Nhlobe.  They are on pension, but they are still alive.

UNKNOWN: Do you know where they stay?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  We might ask you to give us their addresses later on.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mama.  As I've already said that the way most of these cases were treated were done in a mysterious way.  For the Magistrate to say that he cannot make any decision about the case when one of the perpetrators had already agreed that he shot a boy in a pink shirt, when the evidence was there, it would appear that the law at that time was for the perpetrators and not for the victims.  And I believe that is what is exciting about the Truth Commission, that all those cases which favour the perpetrators, there is an attempt that the victims should get a fair trial on what happened before.  We thank you. As some of the members - my colleagues have already said, that we shall try by all means to follow up these cases so that we can see that justice is done.  You are indeed a very strong person.  You have already said that you are quite well.  We appreciate that, but myself I will suggest that you also try and get a help from some of the psychologists, because you are traumatised.  The only thing is that you are very strong.  Some people are very strong, but you are traumatised.  Even now a person can see that you are traumatised by the death of your child, and we don't blame you for that.  So I would advise you too to see some of the people who are put here to take you to the right people who can help you in this trauma.  Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: ALLIE BERTHA PETRUS

COMMISSIONER: Take your time, Mama.  You say the first child is a son.

WITNESS:   Yes, the second one is a daughter.  The son is seven years of age, the daughter is five.

COMMISSIONER: Are these children in school?

WITNESS:   The son is now in Sub B, my daughter is at home.

COMMISSIONER: Allie Bertha Petrus, is it true that you live at 98 Magerman(?) Street in Brand Park, Kroonstad?

WITNESS:   Baramastraat(?), Kroonstad.