Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-30

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Who is next?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Lucky Soko.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, Mr Lucky Soko's application does not appear in the bundles.  I wish to ask for permission to hand in his application.  His application number is 7142/97.  I do apologise that the application is not in the bundle, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Soko, won't you please stand and give us your full names?

LUCKY SOKO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down.  Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Soko, you're also applying for amnesty, is that correct?

LUCKY SOKO: That is so.

MR SIBEKO: Is it correct that this application is due to the fact that you were an SDU member and you participated in the activities of the Self Defence Unit?

LUCKY SOKO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, SDU member, Lusaka-A?

MR SIBEKO: It's correct so, Ma'm.
	When did you join the Self Defence Unit?

LUCKY SOKO: During 1992.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander?

LUCKY SOKO: It was Sipho Mtiyane.  Mtiyane is not the surname but he was called Sipho Mtiyane.  I've forgotten his surname.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, is the surname not Ngubane?  That name was mentioned, Sipho Ngubane who was said to have been a commander at that time.

LUCKY SOKO: If the Sipho, probably he is Ngubane, I'm not sure.

MR SIBEKO: How long were you under the command of Sipho Ngubane?

LUCKY SOKO: One year.

MR SIBEKO: So will I be correct to state that in 1993, a new commander came into the picture?

LUCKY SOKO: That is true.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your commander in 1993?

LUCKY SOKO: Mosa Msimango.

MR SIBEKO: Were you part of the group which fetched Mbuso at the office, took him to the circle at Xhaba Street and executed him?

LUCKY SOKO: No, I was not present during that incident.

MR SIBEKO: Tell us about the incidents or incidences which you were involved in whilst you were a member of the Self Defence Unit.

LUCKY SOKO: I was mainly doing the street patrol.

MR SIBEKO: You only patrolled the area, no attacks were made or else whilst you were patrolling no shots were fired, nobody was caught and killed whilst you were patrolling, nothing happened, you just patrolled.  Is that what you are saying?

LUCKY SOKO: That is correct, Sir.

ADV SANDI: What about the confiscation of arms from the gangs, did you not take part in that whilst you were patrolling?

LUCKY SOKO: Yes, we did that mainly during the year 1993, whilst we were patrolling or during the patrols.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know what happened to the weapons that were confiscated in the patrol that you are referring to?

LUCKY SOKO: The commander would take the arms and pass them to other members of the committee or to other committees.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, you'll pardon me if I'm wrong and you will help us here, in your application I see you make mention of the death of Lucky and in some of the pages you refer to Mbuso who was killed and at some stage or initially I asked you whether you were involved in such an activity and you said no, how come does this, or how does your application form make reference to this act which the last applicant referred to?  How were you involved?

LUCKY SOKO: As my attorney has just pointed out, I think we did not understand each other because I referred to two commanders.  I just want him to explain as to which period he is relating to because each period had its own commander.

MR SIBEKO: Right, we've got evidence on record to the effect that at the time of the death of Gregory Mkwanazi and Mbuso, the commander was Mosa Msimango, what I'm interested in is the explanation as to what was your involvement if any, in the said incident of the death of Mbuso at the hands of amongst others, Mr Radebe who has just testified.

LUCKY SOKO: When Mbuso came to my place or when he was taken he was taken to be questioned.  I took part in the assault until such time that he was taken into the office.

MR SIBEKO: Now you have mentioned quite a few aspects here, you say when he arrived in the morning we took him for questions and we took him to the office and I was assaulting, what I want to find out is who came where in the morning and who took who for questioning?  If there were questions which were posed to him, try to give us a full picture and if possible give us names.

LUCKY SOKO: When Mbuso arrived we were all together because we had heard at an earlier stage that something had happened.  The commanders approached Mbuso, disarmed him and took him.  It was himself and Sipho, the ex-commander.  He was taken in for questioning and he was brought back.  That is where I started assaulting him, when he was brought back.

MR SIBEKO: Right, you took him to the office, now there is evidence already on record that when he came to the deceased, Gregory's place, he was there for the sole purpose of apologising.  Did you hear him apologising and if so, what did he say?  That is, what did Mbuso say?

LUCKY SOKO: I did not hear Mbuso begging for forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, you were amongst the people who took him to the offices at Mkwaie and as you have just stated you assaulted him, what else happened whilst you were still there or what happened in your presence?

LUCKY SOKO: Some of the comrades were making utterances that they were going to kill him.  I think I was the one who assaulted him.

MR SIBEKO: Right, we have heard about that, Sir.  Proceed, what happened after that?

LUCKY SOKO: He was taken to the office.  We've got Mtjale Street, Mkwaie and Xhaba.  I stay at Xhaba so I took him as far as the end of Xhaba Street and then I went back.

MR SIBEKO: Was the last time you saw the late Mbuso, because you say after those questions you went home, you didn't go to the office.  Was that the last time you saw the deceased, Mbuso?

LUCKY SOKO: That is so, that was the last time I saw him.

MR SIBEKO: When Mr Radebe who has just testified and the others, took him from the offices at Mkwaie to the circle at Xhaba Street, were you not there Sir?

LUCKY SOKO: No, I was not.

MR SIBEKO: When Dan pulled a trigger, shooting at Mbuso, were you not there Sir?

LUCKY SOKO: No, I wasn't present.

MR SIBEKO: Apart from these incidents, do you have any other incidents wherein you were involved carrying your orders or the orders of your commander in the activities of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka-A?

LUCKY SOKO: One other incident was the hostel incident.  I don't remember the year and the date but that is where a certain journalist was killed, or a well-known journalist.  I've forgotten what the name of the journalist is.  At that time I had an axe and not a gun.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that the incident that you are referring to or the hostel that you are referring to is one of the hostels which are situated at Khumalo Street, Thokoza?

LUCKY SOKO: That is so, Sir, it is in Khumalo Street in Thokoza.

MR SIBEKO: You say you were carrying an axe, what did you do with that axe on that particular day?

LUCKY SOKO: I did not get into the hostel itself ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just repeat your answer?

LUCKY SOKO: I was not able to gain entry into the hostel so we went back.  So I had possessed an axe but I did not get an opportunity to use it.

MR SIBEKO: Now you said something to the effect that ...(no English translation) with that axe, what do you mean by ...(no English translation) with the axe?

LUCKY SOKO: Touching the wall means taking cover because we were attacked before we could attack, so we ended up retreating without having launched an attack.
	Could I just explain that we ended up outside the hostel building without having gained entry and actually launching an attack.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words on that particular day you didn't get an opportunity of using your axe against anybody or anything, you just ran away as a result of the appearance of the Internal Stability Unit, is that what you are saying?