Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, may I remind you that you're still under oath.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger, you may proceed.

MR BERGER: (Continues)   Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, is it correct that you came to the Vaal in 1988?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And that you went to live in the Kwamasiza Hostel, correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You left Kwamasiza and you landed up at Kwamadala, correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that that was because the residents of Kwamasiza were predominantly Xhosa speaking  and they didn't want you there because you were Zulu speaking, is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And that was the reason for Kwamadala being occupied in the first place by Zulu speaking residents?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And in fact the vast majority of the residents from Kwamadala were ex-residents of Kwamasiza who had been chased out of Kwamasiza by the Xhosa speaking residents?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And Kwamasiza is in Sebokeng, is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Now, is it also correct that you had two very close friends at Kwamadala?  You've already told the Committee about Mr Themba Mabote but you were also very friendly with Mr Sipho Lukhozi.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Did you share the same room at Kwamadala?

MR MTHEMBU: No, we did not share a room.

MR BERGER: What room were you in?

MR MTHEMBU: I used 300, Room 3008.

MR BERGER: And Themba Mabote?

MR MTHEMBU: He used another room but I do not remember the number thereof.

MR BERGER: And Mr Sipho Lukhozi?

MR MTHEMBU: He too had his own room.

MR BERGER: I'm asking for the number of his room.

MR MTHEMBU: I cannot remember what room number he was in.

MR BERGER: The night of the attack, can you tell the Committee whether Sipho Lukhozi was present?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, he was present.

MR BERGER: Where did you see him?

MR MTHEMBU: I saw him as we were going through the main gate to go and attack.

MR BERGER: Could you give the Committee the names of all the people that you saw that night at one point or another who were part of the attacking group?

MR MTHEMBU: There were many people there and therefore it is not possible to give the names of each one of them.  There were many of them and we did not know one another.

MR BERGER: Can you give the names of the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give us the names of those persons that you can still recall, if you don't recall say so.

MR MTHEMBU: I am trying to say here that I do not remember the names.  I am sure about Sipho Lukhozi who was present that evening.

MR BERGER: You cannot remember a single other name?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I do not remember others because I too went there because I was angry knowing that we were going to attack and I therefore did not have time to record down people's names.

MR BERGER: And in the six years since the attack you haven't been able to recall a single other name?

MR MTHEMBU: As you have just explained that it is after six years, you too can see that it is difficult, it is after a long time now.

MR SIBANYONI: Through you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, you can't even remember whether your fellow co-applicants were one of the people who were in the group during the night of the attack?

MR MTHEMBU: Some were present but some were not.

MR SIBANYONI: Who of them in your group do you still remember?

MR MTHEMBU: As I have explained Sir, I do not remember, it is very difficult for me.  I've just indicated that I do not remember.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR BERGER: What about your co-accused at the trial?  You can't remember whether anyone of them was present at the attack?

MR MTHEMBU: As I have explained that I had, I was with Khanyile and Msane, those are the two names that I can still recall.

MR BERGER: Well according to you yesterday, you could recall Buthelezi's name.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Just one second Mr Berger.
	Sorry Mr Mthembu, just so that we can be clear here.  The question wasn't who was with you on that night, the question was who do you remember seeing on that night, okay?

MR MTHEMBU: Now I do understand.  I am trying to explain that I do not remember.  The gentleman should understand that.

MR BERGER: Isn't it just that you don't want to tell, you do remember but you don't want to tell?

MR MTHEMBU: I wouldn't say I don't want to talk about something that I have to say here before this Committee.  I am just saying that I do not remember.  I think you understand that it's been a long time since this thing happened.

MR BERGER: Mr Sipho Lukhozi has made an affidavit in which he says that he was not present during the attack.  I will read it to you, it's paragraph 2 of his affidavit
"In this moment or at this moment I don't like to go and sit in front of the TRC hearing because I was sentenced for this case of Boipatong Massacre when I was not present.  I was not even around the area of Boipatong"
Is that false according to you?

MR MTHEMBU: As far as I know Sipho was present.  It may as well be that he is saying this because he was sentenced.  If he was not present, why then was he sentenced?

CHAIRPERSON: You just testified that you saw him at the gate as you were leaving the hostel, is that right?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see him in Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I do not recall seeing him at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: What was he doing at the gate when you saw him?

MR MTHEMBU: He was standing there as one of those people who were going to accompany us.

MR BERGER: He was armed and part of the attacking group?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'd just like to point out that if one has a look at the amnesty application of Mr Themba Lukhozi, I beg your pardon, Mr Sipho Lukhozi, he says there at page 145
"The night of the 17th of June 1992 we went to the Boipatong residential armed with kierries, assegais, spears, firearms and other weapons"
...[no Afrikaans translation - transcriber's own translation] 
And he sets out that in fact he was there and that he was part of the attack but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Does it say in his affidavit that he has just filed, doesn't he mention something about being forced of some kind to make the application?

MR BERGER: No, he ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON
"furthermore I didn't make any application for amnesty.  Advocate Strydom and other one came to me about myself to make application"
he refused.

MR BERGER: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: So if that is the case, what value does one place either on that statement that you've just read or on the affidavit itself?

MR BERGER: I just wanted to point out to the Committee that there seems to be something funny going on, and the reason I say that Chairperson, is because if you look at the bottom of page 146 and you see there who signed as the deponent and you compare that signature with the signature of Thomas Lukhozi on the affidavit, it's a completely different signature.