Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-09

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: We would normally supply our research results in written form to Dr Basson and the senior scientists that were working on the different projects went along with us to this meeting and we had a general discussion on the progress of each project and Dr Basson would sometimes make suggestions on which way to go because we were all in a learning phase, especially where the pharmacology of these potential incapacitants were concerned.  We are not pharmacologists, most of us were straightforward organic chemists so we had quite a steep learning curve to go through and I suppose that Dr Basson gave his ideas also from a medical sort of perspective where this was concerned.

MR VALLY: What was your view on the feasibility of using cannabinoids and incapacitants?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: It is not improbable although, as I said, this was only made on small scale, the synthetic work at Delta G and I don't think this was ever followed up apart from a pyrolysis study that I saw that I became aware of that was done under Klaus Psotta where they mixed, I think it was cannabis and mandrax and diphenal amine or something, in cigarettes with a smoke machine and they did some analysis on that.  I think that programme was run by Mr Steenkamp, one of the analysts in that department.

MR VALLY: You do know that the abuse of mandrax takes place in the form of mandrax being mixed with cannabis, with dagga and then smoked?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Well I'm not so au fait on that part of the - sorry I ... (intervention)

MR VALLY: Well I can give you that bit of scientific advice.  Was this research aimed particularly, to your knowledge, the whole notion of mandrax and cannabinoids, dagga, and the smoke machine you're referring to, aimed at seeing the effects on human beings?

MR VALLY: I honestly don't know Mr Vally, as I said I wasn't directly - I wasn't involved in that part of the project, because Gert Lourens was still head of the department at that stage.  I didn't handle that sort of thing, I took over in 1989 and what I did was do straightforward synthetic work on cannabinoid analogues after a Structure Activity Relationship Study, theoretical one that was done by Klaus Psotta and we started to attempt to synthesise some of these compounds with a view of using them as an incapacitating agent.

MR VALLY: In TRC 61 there is reference to Project Indigo, the costs of which required an upgrade of something close to thirty million rands (R30 000 000,00) to the Delta G factory in 1987?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: At that stage I was still not very much involved in the senior management of this so I can't really comment on it.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of the upgrade to the Delta G factory shortly after that period?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No, I can't comment on it, I can't remember it, honestly.

MR VALLY: Okay.  We've got something like thirty million rands (R30 000 000,00) allocated for that.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Fifty million (R50 000 000,00)?

MR VALLY: Thirty.  Precisely twenty nine million nine hundred and ninety three thousand rands (R29 993 000,00).

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No I'm not aware of it.  There were some upgrades on the CR plant from time to time, because when we came there, the plant was in place and there was a plant 2 which was used actually for manufacturing purposes where they did some work for Carbo Chem and Sasol and that sort of thing, but that's a substantial amount, I'm not aware of this money.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of what Project Indigo is?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No.

MR VALLY: Have you ever heard of it before?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Not as far as I can recall, no.  Can you tell me what page this refers to?

MR VALLY: It's in TRC 61.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Page what?

MR VALLY: Oh the page, sorry.  On page 1445 and if you see the last sentence on that page, "the total expected costs of the project is twenty nine million point nine nine three (R29 993 000,00).

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Oh, but isn't that - yes I think this is the original building and erection costs of Delta G Scientific.  This refers to Van Niekerk's business, he was the guy involved in that.

MR VALLY: Yes, ... (intervention)

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I think the Delta G Scientific eventually cost about thirty million (R30 000 000,00) to build.  So this was the Indigo, I wasn't involved in that project, Mr Corrie Botha and the other guys were but I moved in there after they built the place.

MR VALLY: You see what's strange is that this was after you were already at the Delta G factory I understood.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I don't know what sort of financial arrangements they had made with the company and the groups involved in building this place.

MR VALLY: Alright.  Ja, because at this stage you had already been at Delta G ... (intervention)

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Yes, they were still busy ... (intervention)

MR VALLY: For two years.  Sorry.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Oh yes.  No I find this funny, I suppose the guys would have asked for their money prior to this.  I cannot give you an answer there.

MR VALLY: Yes, I would have thought so.

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: How was Delta G Scientific financed?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: I have no idea, I assume it was financed by the army, but I wasn't involved in that aspect at all.

MR VALLY: Do you know who funded the secret projects that Delta G was involved in?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No I don't, I assumed it was the medical arm of the army, but nobody ever told me.

MR VALLY: Were the salaries and the perks being paid at Delta G much better than in the commercial environment or academic environment?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: Not much so, the salary that I was offered at Delta G was not very much more than a Professor of Organic Chemistry got at that time and we normally got about nine, maybe 10 percent (10%) increase a year and during the time that I was there a got few merit bonuses for good work done, but I don't think that our salary structure was so much higher than the average.  I believe that the people involved with the CR plant got paid relatively well because of the fact that it's not very nice to make CR.  It is about 10 times as active as CS so it burns the blue devil out of you.

MR VALLY: Just on the CR gas that was produced, did it have long term effects on people on whom it was used?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: It's actually, CR is actually a solid compound with which can be disseminated by a pyrolytic technique and there was a study done by a guy called Ballantyne and I believe it was in Journal Pharmacology or something that he published this, and CR is actually much less toxic that CS, it's probably about one third as toxic as CS and I think the toxity level on inhalation is about seven point five (7.5) grams per kilogram.

MR VALLY: Now, it's a third less toxic on people, but what about the environment?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: It has a very persistent effect on the environment that's why I can't see that it can be used as a riot control agent, because if you have contaminated an area with this material, for the next five years anything - if you come in contact with soil it will still have an irritant effect on you.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of whether it was used for crowd control at all?

JOHANNES MATTEUS KOEKEMOER: No I'm not.  I was told it was a harassing agent that was, with a view of using it as a chemical warfare agent.

MR VALLY: Could you control it's toxicity in a sense that in some, for some uses you could make it purer and other uses you would dilute it.  Is that possible?