Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

MR MNQANDI: I want to put it to you that you couldn't have seen a handgrenade on the deceased's hand.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I saw it and I was in a position that I could see it.

MR MNQANDI: Besides the light from the window there was no other light.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: There was no other light and that was a house that even if the windows are closed, there would be some light, but there was no other light except the one coming through the window.

MR MNQANDI: Are you able to tell when investigations were done, what type of handgrenade was found on the scene?  Was it of South African or foreign origin?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I heard that there were of foreign origin.  I did not see them because I was not interested in what was happening afterwards.

MR MNQANDI: My instructions are that investigations revealed that the handgrenade that was used there was that which belonged to the police.

JUDGE MILLER: Which police, the Russian Police or the South African Police or the Transkeian Police?

MR MNQANDI: Transkeian Police, yes.

JUDGE MILLER: Transkeian Police.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The police that were with me did not have a grenade with them.  If that a handgrenade from the police outside, maybe it was like that, but it was not from the South African Police.

JUDGE MILLER: How can you say it was not from the - if you say afterwards you had no interest in it and you just saw a brownish thing?  Are you saying that you were able to identify it yourself as not being a South African grenade?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: According to the report I got it was said that the grenade that was found was from outside.

MR MNQANDI: Do you know what damage was caused to the room on that day?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I saw the damage the following day and the other days because I went there.

MR MNQANDI: Can you describe what damage was caused.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: There were bullets that went through the door and the roof of the house was also damaged.  I can't remember whether, I think it was a bed that was damaged, but the windows were not broken.

MR MNQANDI: Was there no damage to the wall directly opposite the door?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: There was a bullet on the doorframe, but I'm not sure about the wall because what was happening there, they were counting the bullets that they could see, the bullet holes.

MR MNQANDI: In fact my instructions are that on the wall opposite the door there was a big gash. - on the floor, just next to the wall.  Directly opposite the door.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I did not see that because the shooting was happening inside the room.  Starting from the door - I saw the bullets starting from the door and the damages inside, I didn't notice any damage on the wall in the passage.  Maybe it was damaged, but I did not see it.

MR MNQANDI: Was there any damage, according to you, that was caused by the hand grenade?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MNQANDI: Where was this damage?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The roof of that house was damaged by the handgrenade, that is why there were holes all over that roof.  And again, I think it was a bed or a wardrobe, I think it was a wardrobe that was also damaged in the corners at the bottom.  And I think that when the grenade fell, it hit the wardrobe.  If I still remember well, I think it was the wardrobe that was damaged.

MR MNQANDI: Where according to you did the grenade fall, was it inside the room or outside the room?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Inside the room.

MR MNQANDI: How far from the place where the deceased was standing when you saw him?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was not far, it was the position that he was in because there was a wardrobe and then when he was opening the door he would open the door on the other side, the other side was a wardrobe, so when the grenade fell it fell on the corner of the wardrobe, it hit the wardrobe.  That is why the debris of the grenade went straight to the roof, hit the corner and then it went up.  Because when you open the door the first thing you see on the left-hand side, was a wardrobe, so which means that when the grenade fell, it fell in the corner of the wardrobe and it damaged the wardrobe.

MR MNQANDI: Would you say the deceased had a change to throw the grenade?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I think he did not get the chance because when he was still thinking about doing it, there were shots fired.  What happened is that the grenade just fell after he was shot.

MR MNQANDI: Why would he not have thrown the grenade immediately when he opened the door?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He wanted to locate our position first and he was not aware that the window, there was light through the window so we could see him.  So he wanted to locate our position and then throw the grenade, and he had to be sure that he was in a safe place so that he can not be affected by the grenade.

MR MNQANDI: When the deceased was shot, were you acting in self-defence?

JUDGE MILLER: That's the "you" plural?

MR MNQANDI: "You" plural, yes.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct, Sir.

MR MNQANDI: You have applied for amnesty for the killing of the deceased, why do you see it necessary that you should apply for amnesty if you were acting in self-defence?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: First of all the deceased, we were charged for his murder.  Secondly, he was not arrested for criminal actions, but he had a political record.  His career was politics and at that time we were also serving the politics of the government, so if a person died, we cannot say that is a criminal matter because he did not steal anything.
	So we were there for political reasons and when he would be arrested he would be arrested for political reasons.  If there was nothing that involved politics there was no reason for us to be in his home, he was the enemy of the government of the day, that is why we decided to apply for amnesty, that is why we thought that we qualify.

MR MNQANDI: At the time that you killed - or you as the policeman, that you killed the deceased, there was no political motivation, you were acting in self-defence, isn't it?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: We were doing this in self-defence, but there were political motivations.  We went from the office for political reasons and all what we did was politically motivated.  The issue of self-defence happened within the scope of the political motivation.

MR MNQANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MNQANDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mnqandi.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson.
	Mr Gumengu, I understand that at the time when you shot at the deceased, at Ngolo in Lebote, that is the first instance, you were shooting him whilst he was running away from your colleagues, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was not shooting him because he was running away, I was shooting at him because I had to do that.  Even if he was not moving, but it happened ...(intervention)

MR MAPOMA: That's not my question.  My question is, you shot at him whilst he was running away from your colleagues, is that not correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, he was running away.

MR MAPOMA: And your colleagues were giving a chase at him.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Sorry?

MR MAPOMA: And your colleagues were giving a chase at him at that time.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I am not sure if they were actually chasing him.

MR MAPOMA: I have a statement here on bundle number 2, the supplementary bundle, from your colleague then, Chris Sholo.  On page 10, just the second paragraph I think, line 5 - in fact I want to read to you, he says -Mr Sholo
"Adjacent to the Transkei quarry he ordered to stop..."
I'm not interested in that one, just in the third line -"Immediately after embarking from the vehicle, Sthembele fled towards the dongas which are close to the quarry and disappeared.  Mr Gumengu gave chase and disappeared also."
Didn't you give chase at all?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Not at all, but he ran towards the direction where I was.

MR MAPOMA: You confirm that he escaped from the motor vehicle?