Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

MR VISSER: On page 148 of Bundle A paragraph 12 Mr Motsamai says that he, Mangome, Sesedinyana and Morakile used petrol bombs to attack the home of a priest in Botsabelo.  Do you know of such an incident that occurred?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No I don't have any personal knowledge of that.

MR VISSER: If it had occurred did you have anything to do with it by way of instructions given or whatever?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No honourable Chair.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 13 on page 148 Mr Motsamai refers to the fact that he was involved in assaults and torturing of detainees or arrested political activists and he states that these assaults and torturings took place at the offices of the Internal Safety Unit on the 5th floor of the building in Fontein Street Bloemfontein.  If I try to tie this up with an incident of which we are aware, we return to the incident of the Group of 19 of Bloemfontein.  Are you aware, were there any complaints or allegations that you are aware of that Mr Motsamai assaulted members of that group?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No I'm not aware of any complaints Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: If Mr Motsamai had assaulted people during that incident and you had heard about this, what would have happened?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I'm not sure about that.  General Chris Smit was the Divisional Commander at that stage, I think so, but he called us in on numerous occasions and told us that if we lifted a hand against anybody we would stand alone.  That was clearly his instruction and as officer I would have had to take steps if anything like that had been brought to my attention.

MR VISSER: And would you indeed have taken steps like this, although Mr Motsamai had previously worked in your section under you?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that is correct Mr Chairman.  There was still discipline, and officers who addressed junior officers regarding transgressions, the normal steps taken, people were charged in terms of Departmental regulations.

MR VISSER: Let us return to the incidents and complete them first.  Did you have anything to do with whatever Mr Motsamai refers to here by giving instructions that anybody had to be assaulted in Fontein Street Building?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman, I had nothing to do with that.

MR VISSER: Then in paragraph 14 on page ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry before you go on, did the Internal Security Unit have it's own offices?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman the Security Branch office is situated in the Police Admin building, the 4th and the 1st floors.

JUDGE WILSON: But wasn't there a unit, the Internal Security Unit?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I have no knowledge of such a unit.

MR VISSER: Paragraph 14 Mr Motsamai says that he, Mamome Mtyhala, Lesave, Miningwa and Ramaso were involved in an attempted murder on Oupa Makobalu and it was later explained in testimony that it took place during an arrest of Oupa Makobalu.  Did you give any instructions in this regard?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: In brief then Mr Erasmus, as far as all allegations of illegal or unlawful actions which are attributed to you, what is your reaction?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I deny it completely.

MR VISSER: Then Mr Erasmus there were certain victims who came to testify here.  I wish to refer you to a few names and then you should please tell the Committee what you know about them.  Mr Olifant, Shadrech Olifant also referred to as China.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I know there was file on him, I don't know whether I had anything personally to do with him.

MR VISSER: Oupa Makobalu, let's turn to him, he says that you were one of the persons as far as he can remember who participated in his torture.  This is stated in his affidavit.  Do you know Oupa Makobalu?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I do know Mr Makobalu Chair.

MR VISSER: And what is your reaction to his allegation in his affidavit?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I dispute it.

MR VISSER: Doreen Lekeklale also said in her affidavit that she had been tortured and your name was also mentioned in that regard as one of her torturers, what do you say to that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I dispute that as well.

MR VISSER: Mathew Msuswana in his affidavit...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know her?

MR VISSER: Do you know Doreen Lekeklale?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable Chair, the surname was familiar to me but I can't place the person, it was pointed out to me here at the Commission whom she was.

MR VISSER: We are now with Mathew Msuswana, he made the same allegation against you, you already said you know him, that was the person who had been shot.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that's correct sir, I know him.

MR VISSER: Did you assault him?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Chair.

MR VISSER: A person with the name of Baba Kuzela filed an affidavit but did not testify and in his affidavit he made a similar allegation of torture against you.  What is your reaction to that.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I deny that.

MR VISSER: Do you know him?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I know him Chair or know it would be difficult for me to point him out but I did meet the man if I can put it like that.

MR VISSER: Very briefly then, as far as the testimony of victims is concerned, I wish to draw your attention to the fact that there were three witnesses, Kusane Jwayi, then Tande Jacobs and Annie Pelane who all indicated if I am correct, that you in some or other way assaulted them?  If there are such allegations, what is your reaction?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I deny that Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: As far as the interrogation of female detainees is concerned in 1986, I wish to ask you whether you are aware of any relevant regulations in that regard?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chair with regard to interrogation there was the general regulation that it had not to be done by one person only but that at least two people had to participate, but no distinction had been drawn between male and female detainees in that instruction.

MR VISSER: And in as far as searching was concerned, were there any regulations in that regard?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Well the Criminal Act applied there that a female could only be searched by a female.

MR VISSER: Did this position receive attention at a later stage and if so what happened then?  This is now the position with regard to the interrogation of female detainees.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: As far as I am aware it is expected that where possible, a female is interrogated, a female had to be present.

MR VISSER: Was that a regulation, an order or what was that, what was the status of this?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: To my knowledge it was just an instruction from Head Office, it was not contained in a regulation, just an instruction.

MR VISSER: This building in Fontein Street, we often heard reference to Violence Street, will you please place this in perspective for us.  What was Violence Street?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable Chair, there was a sticker on the 5th Floor on one of the passage walls close to the entrance.  It was a sticker on which was written Violence Street.

MR VISSER: What was the colour of the sticker?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I think it was red with a white background, if I'm not mistaken.

MR VISSER: And what was it doing there?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't know who put it up there Mr Chairman but it was up there for quite some time, nobody removed it.

MR VISSER: Did you regard this as a sticker which had to convey a serious message?