Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: Yes, it was a white person.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other one?

EDWIN TOSIMELA SIMELANE: I think was a coloured. But he too had a very white complexion.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Simelane, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, have you got any evidence? I assume that's your case?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I think that will ...(indistinct). I was intending to call a witness, but unfortunately the witness was supposed to be here at eleven and during teatime I phoned, he was, he missed a flight from Joburg. He is a member of the ANC or PAC. He was going to come and testify. Now the next flight is at half-past one, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he, is he on his way?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, he is at the airport, but I said maybe I'll indicate whether I will still need him. He was going in fact to testify especially on the Bongani Moyo and Mrapapa. I don't know what's the feeling of the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know how much of that is in dispute, Mr Steenkamp will probably indicate to us. But, is there a prospect of getting an affidavit from that witness?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, we can get it, let's just see the affidavit, Chairperson, to confirm it, just to confirm the Bongani Moyo and Mrapapa. Chairperson, if you still remember, if the Committee, if I may just, he is the same Mr Khumalo who testified in Kibler Park last year when we heard the hearing. The same name crop up Mrapapa, this other Apla commander and he came and testify about it. He knew him, he was the one who was sent to Military Hospital in Zimbabwe after he was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I recall.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So he was going to the same evidence, he was going to lead the same evidence that he know him. He was a member of Apla and also especial Ngubeni because they are almost from the same area, Mr Ngubeni the first applicant. He knew him very well. That he was a member of the party and that he was a member of the task force.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say he would confirm the position of Bongani as well?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson. He was going to confirm the person of Bongani, because he also attended his funeral. It is only Mrapapa who he did not manage, if you still remember. He said that he was buried when the coffin of Sabelo Pama was arriving in South Africa. So they have to attend to the coffin of Sabelo. Some went to the funeral of these, this guy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes ... (intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: I can obtain affidavit looking at the time, Chairperson, definitely that's the only problem, that we can wait. Because he will arrive at half-past two if he's going to get a flight at half-past one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Let me just hear from Mr Steenkamp, if it's not in dispute then, it might be unnecessary trouble. Mr Steenkamp, what is the position? You've heard what the, what Mr Mbandazayo has indicated what this witness apparently would be testifying about, in fact, I could perhaps indicate that I presided at the Kibler Park hearings, where, which Mr Mbandazayo has been referring to, where this intended witness also appeared. But, in any case, what is the position?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I understand the Committee's problem. As I understand it, the information that will be brought forward will, as far as I can see, will be repetitive. As far as I remember there was also a previous affidavit by this witness which was handed to the Amnesty Committee in a previous similar hearing.
	I think also there was further documents relating to Apla operations, which I cleared out with my learned colleague before we started. Because he indicated to me it might be irrelevant if those documents will be handed in at this hearing. And he indicated to me those documents are already before the Amnesty Committee, maybe not this specific Committee, but it's already before the Committee. So as far as I can understand, Mr Chairman, it will probably be repetitive, because it will definitely not deal directly with the facts as it is now before the Committee. 
	I can only just add, for the record purposes, Mr Chairman, I've checked the communication between the TRC and the office, I see there was further request to the different Supreme Courts and even to the Appellate Division for further documentation. I doubt whether this case was ever before the Appellate Division, but no documentation came forward. I see it was also requested about the inquest records, nothing could be done about that as well. 
	As I understand, these documentations were  subsequently destroyed because the government instructions after five years, documents or police dockets are destroyed. Unfortunate, I understand the difficulty, unfortunate that circumstance, Mr Chairman, I'm not in a position to forward any or supplement any factual information that may be, can give some more light on this, on this specific case. I'm not aware at this  moment whether or not any documentation relating to this specific incident are in the present files  of this, of these applicants. If there will be a decision, it's entirely in your hands, Mr Chairman, but if there will be a decision by the Committee that my learned colleague will have an opportunity maybe to supplement, on a later stage, whenever, this specific application of sworn statements, I would, if, if in the circumstances ask for an opportunity maybe just to check out, the Correctional Service people are here, to see whether or not there are any factual information contained in the prison files. 
	I doubt if there was parole proceedings yet, but it's possible that any, some information may be contained in their files. That's as far as I can take it, Mr Chairman. Thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we obviously would like to dispose of the, at least of the, all the evidence, and you know, be in a position where we are left with having to decide the matter, once we arise from here. I assume you, you're not going to lead any evidence?

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry, Mr Chairman. No, not in the circumstances, thank you, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes. Yes, and Mr Mbandazayo, well it's, you know, you have to take the decision, it's your, it's your matter. We have heard the evidence which you are referring to at a previous occasion. We would like to reach a point where, you know, we can hear your addresses and where we can go away and decide the matter. That's really what we, what we intend. Yes, Mr Mbandazayo, just to repeat, much of what, what, as you have indicated to us, much of what this witness is likely to testify about has already been placed before the Committee in other circumstances, in other applications. So, we would certainly, you know, be happy if, if you do wish to put something before us from this witness, if it is in the form of an affidavit, we don't believe that physically bringing him to this venue here would add very much more value than an affidavit would add. But you have to decide, you know, whether you want him here, personally, or whether, you know, you would submit an affidavit or what you want to do.