Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is surprising.  Because what I heard when they will say that, I didn't know why they were crossing the river.  Because what I know is that they kept to the ground, coming to where we were, where they killed our people.  I don't know about crossing the river.

MR DRAHT: I also put it to you that the first stones was threwed by the ANC group.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We would not do that by throwing the stones first.  We threw stones because they started shooting.  We were trying to disturb them.

MR DRAHT: And that first gunshot also came from the ANC group.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I begin to hear this for the first time.

MR DRAHT: I also put it to you that the ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: He heard that for the first time here.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: I also put it to you that it was the ANC people that shouted slogans at the ...(indistinct)

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We were not singing slogans on that day.

MR DRAHT: Mr Dastile, do I understand correctly that Skosana's shebeen is in the same direction as which some of the ANC group ran away?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Skosana's shebeen is down to where we were fighting.  It is not the direction from Mr Brown's place to Skosana's place because the IFP were on that direction, and then our people went to TPA offices.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mpongosi denies that he ever assaulted any women at the shebeen.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I had word he was saying that.  He was trying to protect himself.

MR DRAHT: Last Mr Dastile I put it to you that these two groups, or the members of the community, knew very well who was members of the ANC and who was members of the IFP.  Is that correct?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

MR DRAHT: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Draht.  Do you have any questions Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Mr Cachalia?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Dastile, they read to you page 100, sorry page 149 of the record.  Were you in Court when they read page, sorry, on page 148 it was said that,
"...Sandisile Dastile impressed us as an intelligent and honest witness."
Were you in Court at that time?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this a re-examination or are you just trying to ...?

AZHAR CACHALIA: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Were you there when that was said?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, I was present.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Just one issue that I am not very sure what you said.  In relation to page 108 certain matters were read out to you.  When you reached Moloetsi's shebeen, from Moloetsi's shebeen you and the other ANC leaders where did you people go to?  Did you go to the ANC office or did you go to Sithole?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We went to speak to Magwaza or Sithole so as to report what has happened by, what has been done by their members.

AZHAR CACHALIA: So on page 108 of the bundle when it says
"...It is clear from Mr Sandisile Dastile's version that he and the deceased Dastile did not, after leaving Mr Moloetsi's shebeen, return to the ANC office."
Does it mean that you first went to other places?  Is that what is indicated there, sir?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you can use that in argument.  What you're saying is that this is not, this might be ambiguous.  It might mean that he did not go directly to the ANC offices.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That's what I will argue sir, thank you.  One final matter.  I'm not very clear about it.  There was the question put to you, did the ANC leadership take over or usurp the function of the civic, did you want it to be disbanded?  Please, what was your attitude in respect of the civic?  Did you want it to be disbanded, did you want the parents committee and the civic or whatever it was and did you want to take over and usurp that function, or what was your position?  I wasn't very clear as to what your answer was.  Please, I think you should be given another opportunity to just make your position clear.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We haven't yet reached the discussions together with them.  So that they would relinquish their positions.  What we did at that time we were trying to help people who were having problems when their shacks were destroyed.  Secondly it is because all people who were next to the river or under the pylons had problems.  We tried that all people should be removed to that designated place.  That is how it happened.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Did I understand your evidence correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong, did you say that the first three shacks that were removed became five shacks in the designated area?  Is that what happened?  And the additional shacks were destroyed by TPA?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, there were three shacks which were removed and because in one shack had three families inside.  And then when they arrived at the new designated place they were divided into various families and then from one shacks we became five shacks and the TPA denied that problem and then destroyed the other shacks.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you, sir, that's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: No thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?
	Thank you very much Mr Dastile, that concludes your testimony, you may step down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We'll have the tea adjournment now, I see that it's eleven o'clock.  And for about twenty minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Chairperson, I call my next witness, Sipho Tshizana.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you full names please?  Sipho?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Sipho Tshizana.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell Tshizana?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: T S H I Z A N A.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Tshizana, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Cachalia?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Chair.  Before I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be interpreting, testifying in Zulu or Xhosa.

SIPHO TSHIZANA: In Xhosa.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Chairperson.  I just wish to indicate before I put questions to this particular witness, that the witness is being called in order to, as a representative of those victims that have suffered, to afford them an opportunity relate the violations that they suffered, not particularly on the facts.  I am aware that they are, the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He wishes to make a statement on behalf of the victims?  Yes, thank you.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Tshizana you remember the 12th of February 1994 when four people were shot dead and at least seven were injured.  Is that correct?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Were you one of the person that were injured?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: How were you injured, and where were you injured?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: I was hit on the leg, on the foot.

CHAIRPERSON: By what Mr Tshizana?  You say you were injured on the foot.  What caused your injury?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: A firearm.

AZHAR CACHALIA: In other words you were shot on your leg, is that correct?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Were you at that time working at the time when you were injured?  Were you employed?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you had to, as a result of the injury you were not able to continue your work for some time?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: How long did you stay away from your employment Mr Tshizana?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: A month, a month and two weeks.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now, as a result of you having stayed away did it have any kind of effect on your record at the, at your employment?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What, well let me just, perhaps if my friend, my learned friends have no objections, it had an ...(intervention)