Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

MS COLERIDGE: And how long did the CCB pay for this, for this company to exist?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: About four months.

MS COLERIDGE: And from which date?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I am not sure, it would be from about April 1989 up until October.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you have this company registered?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is.

MS COLERIDGE: At that time, was it registered?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Who paid for the registration?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The CCB.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you have a business associate at that time, at the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: When I was in the CCB?

MS COLERIDGE: Yes?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: What was your business associate's name?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Well, he was an employee, I did not have associates at that time, or partners, but it was Ben van Zyl.

MS COLERIDGE: Did he know about your activities in the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MS COLERIDGE: At no stage did he know  about your activities in the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not at all.  Only after my Section 29 release, did I inform him about my involvement with the CCB.  He was not involved or informed about this, and about four months afterwards, he left my service.

MS COLERIDGE: I just want to refer you to Bundle F, Chairperson, page 180, Bundle F.  That is just line 19, I just want to read a statement.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, page?

MS COLERIDGE: Bundle F, page 180, it is the typed pages, page 541, that is the typed page, but it is 180, line 19.  Page 180, line 19, Bundle F.
	Can you just read from "later I got a partner in the business"?  Can you read it out aloud, Mr van Zyl?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Which line is that?

MS COLERIDGE: Line 19.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Line 19.

CHAIRPERSON: "I also want to mention ..."?
MR VAN ZYL
"... I also want to mention that my partner was not aware of my association with the CCB, although he was informed of it after I quit the CCB, as I will describe underneath."

MS COLERIDGE: I just want to check with you, what did you inform him of the CCB, did he know that you were involved in covert and illegal activities?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot tell you exactly what I discussed with him.

MS COLERIDGE: Why did he leave your company?  Why did he leave the company four months later?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, he left the business, because he started his own business.

MS COLERIDGE: Can you just, before I interrupted you, what did you inform him of your CCB activities?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot think that I discussed any project with him at all, but he knew, I discussed it, he knew that the CCB was part of the Special Forces of the Army and that I had knowledge of this and also that I had knowledge of the content of certain newspaper articles that appeared in the newspapers at that stage, and also ...

MS COLERIDGE: So he knew of your involvement in these activities through the newspaper, etc, etc?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I believe so.

MS COLERIDGE: Does he work for you currently?  Is he part of your business, now at this stag?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not at all.

MS COLERIDGE: In relation to Calla Botha, we know that he was suspended from the CCB, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Well, I think the word suspension is a little bit out of proportion, at a stage he was placed on ice.

MS COLERIDGE: I would just like to refer the Committee to Bundle C, page 19, to Mr Wouter Basson's Section 29.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that 90 or 19?

MS COLERIDGE: Page 19.  Mr Basson has a different version in a sense, you say he was on ice?  You can see Mr Khoisan is cross-examining him and I will start at the third line where Mr Khoisan is asking him regarding Calla Botha.
"... Well, that will be his area of responsibility at ground level?
	MR BASSON:   Say again?
	MR KHOISAN:  That would be his area of responsibility?
	MR BASSON:   That is correct yes.
	MR KHOISAN:  In terms of targets?"
	Mr Basson responds -
"... well, if I had a presentation, it was approved, yes."
	He is referring to Calla Botha, how many presentations did he make in respect of targets.
MR BASSON:   He never made any.
	MR KHOISAN:  How long was this man working for the CCB?
	MR BASSON:   He was given a specific name, he did not do it as he should, and he was suspended for a period of time."
	Now surely suspended and placed on ice, is a different version, your versions differ?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is my interpretation, I think you will have to ask Mr Basson what he meant by that.

MS COLERIDGE: Do you know why Mr Calla Botha was suspended?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do know that it was in relation to the person that he and Ferdi was observing, as a result of which they were identified.

MS COLERIDGE: Are you talking about the Webster incident?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.  Never given evidence in regard to that.

MS COLERIDGE: It is just, because we know that the Webster incident occurred on the 1st of May and Barnard was - in 1989 - and Barnard was involved in that as well as Calla Botha?  That was proven in Barnard's criminal trial.
	I want to know from you, because Barnard was placed, was suspended at that time, when you used him as well, Calla Botha, was that the same position that Barnard was in?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.  I do not know.

MS COLERIDGE: But it is a possibility?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I can tell you that as far as I know, Botha was not suspended at all, because that is the Afrikaans word for suspension.  I do know that he was in a cool off period for security reasons, as a result of the fact that he and Ferdi Barnard had observed a person, but it had nothing to do with the Webster case.

CHAIRPERSON: I think when one gets down to using these words, in English, I don't know the Afrikaans, but suspension, my  view, interpretation of it is that you can be suspended with or without pay, but it is usually pending some form of action, disciplinary action or some form of hearing.  If you are in a security sort of situation, how I think of being put on ice is that you are just pulled out of the operational area for a while, and it is not necessarily pending some hearing against you and you can be brought back in when the heat is off, type of thing.  So there is a bit of a difference in using the word suspended or put on ice.  I don't know - is that what that is?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is the way I interpreted it too.

CHAIRPERSON: In Afrikaans you just use the word "geskors"?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: "Geskors", correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Who authorised, did your Regional Manager authorise Burger, he was aware that Calla Botha was with you for this Athlone Learning incident?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Did Verster know?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have no knowledge of that.

MS COLERIDGE: We will just have to get the date sorted out as to when Mr Botha was active and not active, but I won't ask you to respond to that.
	Just in relation to your Section 29's, when Barnard was arrested.  I know you have testified on this previously, Barnard made a statement and Calla Botha was arrested thereafter.  Would you say there was a certain amount of panic between the members of the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Naturally.

MS COLERIDGE: And at that time, yourself, Burger, Maree, were still out, you were not arrested, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Did the CCB at that time, still have the Ponte Building as their apartment?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't know, because you have to keep in mind that in October of 1989, I resigned from the CCB and Botha was only arrested in December, and I did not have any contact with them, not at all.

MS COLERIDGE: Because just according to information and investigations that once you heard that Botha and Barnard was arrested, you, there was panic between the members of the CCB and you used to meet regularly at the Ponte Building, which was still CCB, I believe.  Did they own a flat there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know.

MS COLERIDGE: And that you met in the Midrand as well?  Can you comment on that?