Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: That's correct Mr Chair.  The next witness we are calling is Dr Mike Odendal.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Polsen, you are representing Dr Mike Odendal as well?

MR POLSEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Advocate Potgieter is going to swear Mr Mike Odendal in.

MIKE ODENDAL: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Potgieter.  Mr Odendal, may I just remind you that if you are comfortable in Xhosa or Afrikaans or Sotho, but certainly in Afrikaans, we will have a translating facility, you are welcome to make use of it.
Mr Vally?
EXAMINATION BY MR VALLY

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Dr Odendal, do you have any statement you wish to read into the record?

MIKE ODENDAL: No.

MR VALLY: What are your qualifications?

MIKE ODENDAL: I'm a Veterinarian.  I qualified in 1974 with a BSc from the University of Pretoria.  In 1983 I got my MED degree in Bacteriology and then I could register as a specialist, as a Veterinarian.

MR VALLY: Is it correct to say you are both a Microbiologist as well as a Veterinarian?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, that is correct.

MR VALLY: How did you come to be employed at the Roodeplaat Research Laboratories?

MIKE ODENDAL: I and Dr Daan Goosen, we were colleagues, we studied together, we qualified at the same time.  We worked at the same research institute at the Faculty of Medicine at the University of Pretoria.  We were together for three years before he went to RRL and he offered me a job there too.

MR VALLY: What were you employed as - sorry, before that, when was this?

MIKE ODENDAL: This was in 1985.

MR VALLY: And how long did you work at RRL?

MIKE ODENDAL: I worked there for 8 1/2  years, then I resigned, and then I went to Onderstepoort.

MR VALLY: What were you employed to do at RRL?

MIKE ODENDAL: Initially I had to establish microbiological capacities for the South African Defence Force.  I knew it was a French organisation.  I was trained as a Veterinarian and I worked with - we didn't work with viruses.  I'm a trained Veterinarian working in microbiology and I concentrated on microbiology and my brief was to investigate the various organisms which could be used against our country, how to identify them, diagnose them, and also develop a limited offensive capability which could be used if it became necessary, because at that stage there was a war waging against the Angolans.

MR VALLY: You were aware that RRL was a front company?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Were you aware that it was controlled by the military?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Who was in charge of RRL?

MIKE ODENDAL: When I joined them Dr Danie Goosen was the Managing Director.

MR VALLY: What I want to know, is specifically what research you did at RRL?

MIKE ODENDAL: We had three types of projects, those were hard projects in which the Defence Force was interested.  There were soft projects, that was for a commercial view, and there was also in-house projects.
 One of my briefs was to develop technology, that meant that any technology had to be developed which could be used to develop a defensive capability, as I've already said, a limited defensive capability.  All the capability was my responsibility regarding microbiology.

MR VALLY: You mentioned hard projects, can you advise us what is meant by the term hard projects?

MIKE ODENDAL: Hard projects, one of those hard projects in which the Defence Force was interested was the development of a system which would entail all the organisms to be used in chemical warfare.

MR VALLY: So you developed various cultures?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Let's look at TRC 48, I believe you have that document.  Do you have it in front of you?

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, I have.

MR VALLY: Now, this seems to be a list of all the projects that - or some of the projects, rather, that RRL was involved in.  Do you recognise this list at all?

MIKE ODENDAL: Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure that we're on the right place, are you speaking of page 1355?

MR VALLY: That's correct.

MIKE ODENDAL: You see, at Roodeplaat, we had different departments and the one department was physiology and that is this department, and I was only involved in microbiology, so the projects listed here one this page, I recognise some of them, but that's all.

MR VALLY: Were you involved in any of these projects on this page?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, not at all.

MR VALLY: What do you recognise there?

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, the Bovine Embryos, some aspects of quality assurance ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Yes, just let's just stop there, you're talking about, did you say baboon embryo's?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, Bovine.

MR VALLY: Bovine, I beg your pardon.

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes, that's the first one, 10034.

MR VALLY: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, where are we?

MR VALLY: We're looking at TRC 48, the first page.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, very well.

MR VALLY: What do you know about that research?

MIKE ODENDAL: No, nothing.

MR VALLY: But you know such research was done.

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Go on.

MIKE ODENDAL: To the next page ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: No, I want to know which other projects you are aware of on page 1355.

MIKE ODENDAL: Well, to be quite honest, I don't know anything of anything of those projects.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought the witness was saying that he had nothing to do with physiology?

MR VALLY: He did, Mr Chairperson, but he said he recognised some of the projects there.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you are just asking for him to recognise any, if there are any.

MR VALLY: That's correct.  Let's move on to the next page, page 1356 which refers to biochemistry, what projects are you aware of there?

MIKE ODENDAL: There is only one project, the R1039, it's halfway down the list.

MR VALLY: I'm sorry, I missed that.

MIKE ODENDAL: The purification, R0139, the purification of the toxins.

MR VALLY: Will you please tell us about that?

MIKE ODENDAL: This project was a biochemistry project, but this regarding the purification of toxins.  These toxins involved with the enzymes here whereof the specific group, this is one of the groups of organisms causing fatal diseases, because these clostridian profusions have five types, and you must just stop me if it becomes too technical ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just establish if the Ministry of Foreign Affairs does have these documents, given their role?  Mr Arendse?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Chairperson, I've got the document available in front of me, and apparently, or I'm told that we don't object if it's relevant ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Alright I just wanted to ...(intervention)

NORMAN ARENDSE: If the Committee feels it's important or Mr Vally feels it's important for this to come out, then we don't have any objections.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I just wanted to look after your interests.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Very pleased to hear that.

MR VALLY: Dr Odendal, without going into the technical detail, this involved the purification of certain toxins.

MIKE ODENDAL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Just give us some examples of the toxins.

MIKE ODENDAL: A produces an alpha toxin, now this is the cause of gas gangrene in people and also a condition such as red derm ...(indistinct), this has veterinary and medical implications.   The other toxin is a better toxin (b), the other one, is gibsolon toxin of a type
(c) which is responsible for a condition in sheep which we called poult kidney in sheep.  So the reason for the purification of these toxins was to establish diagnostic tools to make a diagnoses, because we were not sure whether these toxins could be used for biological warfare or not.  It is listed in the International Biohazardous Key, but we just did it in any case.

MR VALLY: Let's go on to the third page of this document.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be 001357?

MR VALLY: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.