Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that Mbane arrived there.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't they sleep there, the members of C1?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, but they moved around quite a bit, during this time they were away quite often.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: He will also say that when he got back to the shooting range, he noticed Ms Khubeka was both blindfolded and tied, both hands and feet.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: And he is more specific in regard to how she was tied.  He says she was tied with a piece of rope.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: He will say on occasions whilst Ms Khubeka was being interrogated and beaten, the door was open and he noticed Mr Botha and Mr Taylor both on some occasion or the other hitting Ms Khubeka with a whip.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I wouldn't know about that.

MR SAMUEL: And he will say also that the reason why Ms Khubeka was specifically asked to be brought to Mr Botha and yourselves, was that Ms Khubeka had informed him that there was a handler or a Commander of two men and Ms Khubeka had handed of to Mr Mbane to find safe-houses for and she wanted to see them and she was becoming suspicious.  He further will state that he told Mr Botha and you were present at that time and Mr Taylor about Ms Khubeka's suspicions and Mr Botha had instructed him to bring Ms Khubeka to him.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I was not present during such a discussion.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Samuel, I don't think that I fully understand your instructions there.  Do you say that Mr Mbane will say that he phoned Botha and that they were present when he phoned?...(indistinct - mike not on) that Mr Mbane phoned Botha and he says du Preez and Taylor were present when he phoned?

MR SAMUEL: I don't recall using the word phoned, but that's not what I meant.

ADV BOSMAN: I may have it wrong, but this is what I wrote down.

MR SAMUEL: I'm sorry, Madam, the position is that Ms Khubeka had given Mr Mbane two cadres to find safe-house for and Ms Khubeka became suspicious because she did not meet them thereafter, in fact Mr Mbane will say that both these people were killed.  In any event, Ms Khubeka wanted to see them, these two cadres and he then - she became suspicious and she also stated that the Commander of the cadres was in Durban and wished to see them.  Mr Mbane will also state that he reported this to Mr Botha together with Mr Taylor in which meeting you were also present.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Samuel, perhaps - have you got instructions as to where that meeting took place?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  At Winkelspruit where they normally meet up.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I don't know anything about this discussion or this person.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that Mr Botha had instructed him to bring Ms Nthombi Khubeka to yourselves, to your group.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: And that is the reason why they agreed to meet Ms Khubeka or made a rendezvous with Ms Khubeka to take her, to pick her up at the Durban Station and bring her to you all at Battery Beach.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something?  You're saying this isn't so.  Your previous evidence was that you don't remember that happening at all, but you said you weren't present at any such meeting.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, what I understand from the allegation is that something like that was said and that I was present during such a discussion and that is not correct.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) what's not so is that you weren't there.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I don't know of any such discussion.

MR LAX: What I wanted to clarify was, is it possible that such a meeting took place and you simply don't remember it, or are you absolutely certain it never happened?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, from what Botha explained to us, when we would have undertaken the rendezvous at Battery Beach, this does not concur.  Botha explained to us that Jimmy Mbane and the others would bring terrorists to that point, terrorists who would be arranged by Khubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: The question which Mr Lax is asking you is, are you saying that the meeting referred to now by Mr Samuel, namely that took place at the shooting range where Mr Mbane says that you were present when he told Taylor and Botha about the suspicions of the deceased, of Ms Khubeka, and that he was then instructed to go and fetch Ms Khubeka and bring her to the group, now that discussion, are you saying that you can't remember such a discussion, or are you saying no, such a discussion never took place?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I was not present during such discussion.

MR LAX: In other words you're saying as far as you're concerned no such thing ever happened because if it had happened you would have remembered it?  Do you see the difference?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, all I'm saying is that I was not present during such a discussion.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez perhaps I can assist you with this question in Afrikaans.  The question is are you saying that you were not present or are you saying that you were not present and that no such discussion ever took place.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: What I am saying is that I was not present.

ADV BOSMAN: In other words there may have been such a discussion during which you were not present?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It is possible, but then it would also be strange to me that Botha would have told us something other than what he had discussed with Jimmy Mbane.

ADV BOSMAN: I think that you have now answered Mr Lax's question.  Thank you very much.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, you will recall that the last part of Mr Samuel's question was, or statement was that Mbane had to bring Khubeka to the group there and that he specifically denied, that was his denial.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.  Mr Mbane will say that he was present when the body was removed from the room and put into the motor vehicle, do you recall that?  Or he was able to see when the body was being removed from the room and put into the motor vehicle.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I think that that would have been impossible because the door of the room pointed in another direction from where the members were sleeping.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you perhaps recall where Mr Botha was when you loaded the body into the vehicle?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, but what I can recall is that Wasserman and I waited until there was no-one in the vicinity.  We waited for everyone to go to sleep or for those members who were going away to depart and once the situation presented itself, we loaded the body into the vehicle.

ADV BOSMAN: So you said that Mr Botha was not in the vicinity or can you not recall?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No-one was present.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying as far as you are concerned, as far as you believe, no-one saw you loading that body into the Skyline?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: And your reason for that would be the reason why Jimmy could not have seen you, it's because the room that he was in, it was impossible in your words to see the body being removed?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I don't know where Jimmy was precisely.  It is my evidence that I didn't see anyone in the vicinity, if Jimmy was perhaps watching us from a place where he could observe the scene, it is possible, but when we removed the body from the storeroom and placed the body in the vehicle, there was no-one on the premises who was still up, or walking about.