Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR KADES: I am getting there Mr Chairman.  Yes you see we were informed by the Minister, Sydney Mufamadi, and I think we were also - no we were informed by the Commissioner of Police, George Fivaz, that the reason you were put back onto the case was because you were the people who had knowledge of the matter and because of your knowledge having been the original investigating officer that you would be the best people to continue with the investigation.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Mr Chair may I just explain this.  When this team was called up to investigate this in the presence of Dr Asvat sitting there (...indistinct) and sorry the gentleman next to him, Commissioner Levisa and I think it was Ahzar Cachalia, Hesslinga said we want to withdraw from this thing because I don't think we should do this.  Mr Ebrahim Asvat said listen Henk please, he called him by his name, he said Henk I want you please because you have ...(intervention)

E ASVAT: Haaaaa(aghast sound emitted)

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: .... knowledge of this thing you must please go on with this.  Henk will repeat it.

MR KADES: Well you have heard the response.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Because if there was a problem we would have been taken out of it, the police force wouldn't let me go on with it if there was any allegation that I had committed anything that was wrong.

MR KADES: Where is the docket in which is contained the information that you say Mr Hesslinga took and put in the docket?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I don't know where the docket is ...(intervention)

MR KADES: Well who would know Mr Moodley because I understand from the TRC investigators that the last person to sign for the docket is you.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I think you are a bit confused but the docket we are talking about I signed for is not this docket.

MR KADES: No, no, no, no, I am talking about the docket in the case against Mbatha and Dhlamini concerning the death of Dr Asvat.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: May I please ask the Chair to assist me here because there is a bit of confusion here.  The docket I signed for what Piers is talking about is the Lolo Sono, Vincent Shabalala docket for which Piers has got a signature, I at no stage signed for the Asvat docket.

MR KADES: I am sorry Mr Moodley I am told, and I have not seen it myself, I concede that, but I have not been misled till today or till right now by the investigating team of the TRC and I don't see why they should, I have been told that the docket was signed for by you and the docket is no longer available and cannot be found.

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I still don't understand Mr Chair, would you please help us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pigou can you help?

MP PIGOU: Whether or not this resolves it I am not sure who in the TRC investigation unit told you that the Asvat docket was not available and had been signed for, the only docket I am aware of where - is the one which Snr Supt Moodley has been talking about.  I am under the impression that the docket may well be in the office of Attorney General de Vries.  One of the investigators from the Johannesburg office was there in the time when I had left the TRC I believe August, September, in de Vries' office and came back with notes on the basis of that docket.  So we will communicate with the Attorney General de Vries' office tonight, I will speak to Kevin Attwell and see if I can make that available for you tomorrow morning.

MR KADES: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I persuade you to try and move towards a conclusion.

MR KADES: Yes, Mr Chairman might I make the suggestion Mr Chairman in everybody's interest that in view of the fact that questions asked of the witness are by him referred for answer by Mr Hesslinga that the witness be recalled and asked to be here when Mr Hesslinga gives his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think that is ...(intervention)

MR KADES: And then I will keep quiet.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh how wonder...- yes.  Mr Cillier would it be possible to have your other client available on Wednesday?

MR CILLIER: Yes, I think that will be possible Mr Chairman and I will most definitely ask Mr Moodley to be present on the condition that my learned friend sticks to his promise that he will keep quiet then.  (General laughter)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any other?

MR RICHARDS: Thank you Chair.  Unfortunately what I should do if this were a court of law, which it is not, is put my leverarch file of versions to both the witnesses but I don't believe that type of cross-examination is necessary, so what I am going to suggest that if Supt Moodley and Hesslinga are going to be here on Wednesday I will prepare very limited questions for them for then, and only ask a number of questions to Supt Dempsey because I really cannot do what I should do in three minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes go ahead.

MR RICHARDS: On that basis I will proceed.  Supt Dempsey when you met with Temba Mbatha did you discuss the Sono, Shabalala saga with him?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I cannot remember doing so.  It's possible that there might be notes in this regard.

MR RICHARDS: Because one of the statements that Mr Richardson will say is that he and this Temba were the last to see the graves where Lolo Sono and Sibusiso Shabalala were buried, and my question is, did Temba Mbatha say anything about that, to your knowledge?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I cannot remember but what I do have and I have it in writing, when I arrested Mr Richardson I specifically asked him whether he knew Lolo Sono and he said no.  I asked him if he knew Shabalala and he replied in the negative.  Again it is in writing, it is available should you wish to have it.

MR RICHARDS: No I fully accept that it's only recently that Mr Richardson has decided to make written statements and to give information freely and so forth, but on the basis outlined to the Chair I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I thought you people had had your bite.  Anyone here?  Maybe I should start on this side, yes.  Yasmin.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Dempsey did you know that Temba Mbatha, rather I should  ...(tape ends)  was an askari?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I saw this in his statement which he made and where he mentioned that he was an askari.  That was the first time that I saw this.

YASMINE SOOKA: Why was he handed over to Jan Potgieter?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I did not handle him at all. He was already in detention with the security police and I myself and the advocate for the prosecution went to see him in detention.  He was not at all handed over from one person to another by me.

YASMINE SOOKA: If I am not mistaken and our investigation unit will correct me, it was after you handed Mbatha over to Jan Potgieter that he was handed over to Eugene de Kock for ....

MP PIGOU: Chair if I could just come in here, our understanding from the information presented to us by Mr Potgieter and Mr de Kock is that a request was made by Mr Dempsey to pick up Mr Mbatha that the security branch did the picking up and they did the interrogating, they did the handing over, there is no indication in the information provided by Jan Potgieter that Supt Dempsey was involved in that process at all.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thanks.  Why did you never bother to find out after you made this request about what had happened to Temba Mbatha?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: After the prosecuting advocate had decided to lead his testimony it was irrelevant to me we were not going to use him so why would I have anything to do with him further.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you have the statement available still?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes, the statement are still available.

YASMINE SOOKA: Can we ensure that they are actually handed over to us?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is not a problem, it will be done.