Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if I may be allowed to say something while Mr Mamome is on his way back to the witness stand.  We have managed to locate the docket in the matter in which Mr White Mohapi laid a charge of assault and attempted murder and robbery with the South African Police.
	We are busy arranging for photocopies to be made of the docket to be handed to both the members of the Committee and also to my learned friends.  I've gone through this docket last night and I submit Mr Chairman, that there are material aspects which arise from the reading of the docket, and in fairness we believe that Mr Mohapi should have the opportunity to deal with any such differences as there may exist between his evidence and that which emerges from the docket. 
	We've mentioned to Mr Stander that we are busy making the photocopies and we'll hand it to him so that he can have a loot at it beforehand but we've asked him that in case you think it is fit so so, that he should attempt to arrange for Mr Mohape to attend either tomorrow or whenever so that his cross-examination may be re-opened and these questions may be put to him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, I'm getting a bit concerned that the matter seems to be getting out of hand now.  Precisely what are the contents of the docket going to show?  Are we going to come across certain statements which would have been allegedly been made by Mr Mohpi which he would then say: "I didn't say that, the people who took those statements might have been collaborting with the security branch, I never said that".
	And are we then thereafter going to have to call those people who would supposedly have taken statements from him, to come and say: "Well, this is what he said" and so on and so forth.  I'm getting worried that this matter is - we'll have to consider it very carefully Mr Visser.  We appreciate that you raise that point, you came across the docket.  	
	But I think for a start, you should discuss the matter - and this is my personal opinion, discuss the matter with Mr Stander with regard in particular to some of the issues that I have raised.  If we are going to end up opening a totally new front altogether, I would have serious misgivings about that.  It seems to us that we must restrict ourselves, certainly within the perimeter of what we are here for.  
	And I think that, speaking for myself, you will need to discuss with Mr Stander, to make sure that we are not going to open a totally new front and in the end finding ourselves embarking on virtually a trial within a trial.

CHAIRPERSON: I suggest that this is a matter that Mr Stander should have a proper opportunity of considering the document which was not available to him when Mohapi gave evidence and if he feels it is necessary in Mohapi's interest, he can then make an application.
	As I understand it has been available to the  Police throughout.

MR VISSER: No Mr Chairman, we -  Colonel Erasmus only found this this docket over the weekend and we had a look at it on ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not saying you, I'm saying the Police.  They've had a year and they only found it this weekend.

MR VISSER: Yes, except that its its not police that are implicated in this matter, it it's the Police Station at Bayswater Mr Chairman Sir, but  they obviously had it, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We have had a list of the hundreds of policemen that your attorney represents and they must have considered, when they decided they were going to appear at hearings, these questions and I think it is a matter as I say for Mr Stander to decide if its in the interests.  I don't think at this stage you can start applying to put in further evidence that should have been available.  Proceed.
	I don't want it to be thought that I'm discouraging the Police from finding any other documents that they can such as pocket books, occurrence books and things of that nature that we have requested.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman what do we do with this docket now?  Are you not prepared to see it can we not
...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I suggest you give it to Mr Stander  and see if he has any views to express because it's his client.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Mamome, is it correct that Mr Motsamai calls you Mzito?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Your mike is off.

MR MAMOME: That is correct Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And you used to call him "Crossroads" isn't it?

MR MAMOME: No, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Are you not aware that he was nicknamed "Crossroads"?
MR. MAMOME:: No, Chairperson

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that you used to call him "Crossroads" because he used he used to go with you petrol bombing houses and you said that he reminded you of Crossroads in in in the Cape Province which was in flames at the time.

MR MAMOME: Its not like that Chairperson
MR. MEMANE: It seems someone is playing his radio on the earphones.
[PROBLEM WITH EARPHONES]

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that you deny knowing the nickname "Crossroads" because it will show that you were aware of the fact that Motsamai was involved in petrol bombings.

MR MAMOME: No, Chairperson

ADV MEMANI: Is it also not true that you and Motsamai were in the same karate club?

MR MAMOME: I start to hear to-day Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know a karate club called Fatima?

MR MAMOME: I know that Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Were you not in that karate club?

MR MAMOME: No, Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you again that you're making this denial only to dissociate yourself from Mr Motsamai.

MR MAMOME: I have no reason to disassociate myself from Mr Motsamai, he was working where I was working.

ADV MEMANI: Is it also not correct that you were working with Mr Motsamai when Mr Mzuzwana was shot at?

MR MAMOME: No Sir, its not like that Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Do you remember the incident when Colonel Smith flew to Cape Town to intercept AK47's which were being shipped from the USSR and were destined for Lesotho?

MR MAMOME: I don't know that Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Smith?

ADV MEMANI: Colonel Smith, yes Chairperson.
	Don't you don't you remember that before Colonel Smith flew down there you and Motsamai reported to him that you had been with an informer who belonged to the Basotho Congress Party who informed you that there were arms which were being shipped from the USSR to Lesotho?

MR MAMOME: Chairperson, I start to hear these things to-day.

ADV MEMANI: Do you remember that at any stage you ever worked with Mr Motsamai, visiting informers locally?

MR MAMOME: No Chairperson, I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: Do you recall that you ever worked with with Mr Motsamai at any stage?

MR MAMOME: Motsamai was working in the same section which I worked, he was not my partner.  As I said we worked in two's and that is one black one white.

ADV MEMANI: Do you recall that you ever performed any task with Motsamai?

MR MAMOME: If maybe you able to identify that operation or that work maybe I may remember.

ADV MEMANI: As you are sitting there, you yourself do not recall any task that you ever performed with Motsamai?

MR MAMOME: No, Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Now again I'm putting it to you that you denying any association with Mr Motsamai because you do not want - you are afraid that it will tend to establish that Mr Motsamai did some of these things with you.

MR MAMOME: Chairperson its not like that.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Motsamai - Mr Mamome, I want us to go to I want to go to the murder of George Musi.  You were present when the applicant Mr Motsamai went to bomb Mr Musi or rather to shoot Mr Musi weren't you?

MR MAMOME: I was not present Chairperson, I was not present Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: I have instructions from Jeff Mabilo that he was present when you gave a certain firearm to "Yster".

MR MAMOME: There's nothing like that Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know Jeff Mabilo?