Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger have you got any further questions?

MR BERGER: No further questions Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Abrahamse please, I'm going to ask you certain questions and please don't take it incorrectly.  It regards only one issue.  It seems to me that you were a calm, lover of nature and the arts at one stage in your life and unfortunately you were driven to take up arms.  How do you feel about that at the moment?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Mr Chair, I'm going to tell you how I feel in three ways.  Since this amnesty hearing started and I saw it on the news, I saw it by accident, I have had to go for psychological counselling.  I have been diagnosed as having post traumatic stress and having something which they call survival guilt.  I am currently on two different types of medication.  One medication to slow me down physically to suppress the effects of anxiety and the second type of medication to suppress the mental effects of anxiety.  I'm not happy.  That's how I feel.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) is how you feel about life and how you were affected by this raid.  I'm talking about character change that you underwent and I'm not blaming you for it.  Wouldn't you like to get back to your old type of life?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: It's too late, but I did say to you I'm not - I'm happy in my life, I've got a nice fulfilling job where I am making a big difference to the lives of ordinary South Africans.  I'm happy with my relationship with my wife, I've got two beautiful children, we live in a nice house.  In that sense I am happy with my life.  I am not happy with the way in which my life had to undergo such a drastic change and with that, my character also had to change, that's what I'm not happy with and that's what I'm saying to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand that.  But you seem to think that there's no way to reverse what has happened.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I'm trying.  I mean I write poetry, I write short stories, I listen to music, I go for psychological therapy, I faff around in the garden and cut the grass and clean the swimming pool and try to be as normal as possible.

MR MALAN: I thought you said you had a happy life.  I hear you also have to mow the lawn!

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: So we try.  You can't ever get away from it completely, but you can try.

CHAIRPERSON: You know why I ask these questions, part of this Act in terms of which we constitute ourselves here and often a neglected part of the Act, is the question of reconciliation.  Now reconciliation to my mind is not a question of forgiving other people who caused atrocities.  I'm talking about the reconciliation in the interests of South Africa, getting this nation working like it should have been all these years.  Imagine South Africa minus apartheid and its effects and that's the context I raise the issues.  Is there no way we can get onto that road of what South African should have been?  Because it's not what it should be at the moment.  There's too much anger.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Mr Chair look, I'm going to respond to you in two ways.  The first thing is that I don't think that this is the appropriate forum for you and I to be engaging in these issues.  I've got my own views, very strong views about the whole Truth and Reconciliation process, the way it should have gone and the way it shouldn't have gone and for me to talk about them now is going to take up the rest of the day, so I'd like to invite you one day, let's go and have a drink somewhere we can discuss those things.  Alright?  That's the one way.  The second way is, or the second response is, it is incredibly difficult to suppress your anger and to deal with your anger and to overcome those very strong emotions when you have to sit and listen to someone like Mr Olifant yesterday, out of whom, with all due respect, we literally had to drag every little bit of concrete evidence.  I mean you take it from the morning, he started, he mentioned ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I know what he did and what he said.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: He mentioned two names, Tom Williams and myself and the reason he mentioned those names was because we were not killed in the raid.  Right?  The later on in the day he completely denies having seen our house, okay.  When he started he counted the vehicles at the house and when I gave Danny the vehicles at the house, I deliberately left out the motorbike.  He raised the issue of the motor bike.  Right?  So I am saying to you that it is incredibly difficult for us to reconcile at, not only at a personal level when this kind of stuff is still going on, it is immeasurably more difficult to reconcile at a national level and get our country working.  It's - I mean I was saying to Michelle on Sunday, my wife, that one of the things that really frustrates me about South Africa is the fact that these days there is no proper debate of issues.  There's no proper engagement of issues.  If you criticise Mr Malan, the very first criticism is that Mr Malan is a racist because Mr Malan is white and therefore he must be a racist.  If I say that I think the ANC really messed up on the question of HIV Aids, they didn't handle it properly in my personal opinion, then I'm anti-democratic.  I mean, I just feel that we must stop this whole - we must engage, we must debate properly and then we'll be able to reconcile.  We must be able to debate these issues and we must come forward cleanly when we talk to each other.  We mustn't come into the debate with hidden agendas, like the way Mr Olifant was coming in here yesterday.  That frustrates me terribly and if that frustrates me, who is a fairly sober-headed fellow, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If you don't ask people out for a drink.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes, let's go for a drink and then - no ...

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: With a fairly good educational background, you know, with a number of pluses on my side, okay, if that frustrates me, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What of the other people?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: What about people who do not have the recourse to the psychologists that I have?  You know, so I'm saying let's rather, let's please, if you don't mind ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I appreciate what you've said, but as a closing remark, it's precisely because of how you rounded off what you said, that I feel that people in your position should try their level best to get this programme working, which I also agree with you is not working like it should be.  Thank you.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused.  We'll take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the next witness is Ms Busisiswe Mokoena, she'll be testifying in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: You said Mrs?

MR BERGER: Ms.

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: (sworn states)

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Ms Mokoena, is it correct that you can speak and understand English?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, it's true.

MR BERGER: No, you can answer in Zulu.

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Correct.

MR BERGER: Don't listen to me, rather listen to the voice in your head.  Is it correct that - sorry, the statement in bundle D at pages 3, 4 and 5, is it correct that that is your statement?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Have you read that statement?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, I've read it.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that the contents of that statement are true and correct?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Okay.  You talk in your statement about your life in South Africa with your grandparents and you talk about harassment by the police until 1981, when you grandfather decided now it's time for the family to leave South Africa, to live a normal life in Botswana, is that correct?

BUSISISWE MOKOENA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: How old were you at the time in 1981?