Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: At the taxi rank I didn't notice any other person except for the one who grabbed me, Masaka Sandile Khambule.  These others were there, but it wasn't easy for me to actually notice that they were among the people who were swearing at me, but when we were at Kwakanjaza, that's when I noticed that they were among the group.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mzobe, when you approached this group and had a look at Mr Ndovela and Mr Bazely, did you recognise them as one of the people who had swore at you earlier?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I shot these two individuals because I knew that they were one group.  Whether they were in town or they were there, but I knew that they were among the group who swore at me in town.

MS MTANGA: So Mr Mzobe, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't recognise them as being part of that group?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I can say that.  Even though I thought that they were among the group and, the group who was swearing at me in town.

MR LAX: Isn't the real issue here that they were members of the opposition group from yourself?  You were IFP, they were ANC, isn't that really the issue?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I did so because I also knew that they were ANC and I was IFP, but the main reason is that they started this whole thing.

MR LAX: But the fact of the matter is that you didn't recognise them in town as part of the group of people that swore at you in town, you only recognised one person in town.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct.  ...(intervention)

MR LAX: So - carry on, sorry.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: The reason I noticed this other guy is because he grabbed me whilst I was inside the taxi.

MR LAX: Yes, you've told us that, but the fact of the matter is that the two deceased, you didn't see them in town.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I can't say that I've noticed them and I cannot say that I've noticed ...(indistinct) because they were among the group or it was a group.  And the same group followed me even after I've decided to go back home.

MR LAX: You see the fact of the matter is you don't know whether they followed you or not.   You saw one group of ANC people in town, later you saw another group of ANC people where you stopped off your ...(indistinct).  That's the truth, isn't it?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: No, that's not the truth.  These people promised me from town that they were following me because they wanted to kill me and when I decided to go back home, the same group was there.  It wasn't another group, it was going to be impossible to have two groups.

MR LAX: Carry on, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mzobe, was Sandile Khambule - excuse me, did you find Sandile Khambule amongst the group that you approached, when you went back to shoot at them?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I didn't notice whether he was still among them or not.  My aim was now to attack them.  I didn't want to see if he was there or not, or who was there, my aim was just to attack.

MR SIBANYONI: But Mr Mzobe, what made you to recognise this group as the same group you saw in town?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: The reason I noticed was, the second group now was still staring at me and the first group in town told me that they were going to follow me and they are following me because they want to kill me, and they were still swearing at me, the same words were still uttered.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, Ms Mtanga.  What means of transport did they use in following you from town?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I didn't notice whether they took a taxi or something else, but I just thought they took a taxi.

MR SIBANYONI: All what makes you to say it's the same group is because this group was also swearing at you?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.
	Mr Mzobe, you say amongst the swear words used at you they called you "klova", what is "klova"?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: ANC supporters used to use these words to swear at us.  These are insulting words, and I cannot tell anyone what it means, but these are the words they were using to insult us.  No-one would like to be called those words.

MS MTANGA: Will I be correct to say that the word "klova", in Zulu it's insulting to everyone, whether you're IFP or whether you're ANC?  It can be used against any of you and you'd still find it insulting?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: This word is only used by ANC to insult IFP, not IFP insulting ANC.

MR LAX: I can confirm that.  It's common knowledge in this part of the world that that word had a specific meaning and which was derogatory to IFP people.  It was used by non-IFP people to refer to IFP people.  So you needn't follow that up, it's common knowledge that that is in fact so.

MS MTANGA: Mr Patrick Sebenza will testifying to the effect that before you shot Mr Ndovela, you asked him why was he looking at you.  Did you shoot Mr Ndovela because you thought he was a ...(indistinct) he could not swear at you, or you shot at him because you felt he was challenging you?  What was the reason for shooting at him?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: When I arrived to the group, I didn't check to see if these people were the same people who were in town.  When I arrived by them I already knew that this group was the group which insulted me in town.

MS MTANGA: Sorry, Mr Mzobe, you carried on to shoot at these people without having recognised any of them as the people who had sworn at you earlier on in town?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I shot at them because I believed at that time that this was the group.

MS MTANGA: What made you believe that they were the group, when you couldn't recognise any of them as having been in the group that swore at you?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: When the taxi left the taxi rank, they promised me that they were following me because they wanted to kill me.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew they wanted to kill you?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: They knew that I was an IFP member and their enemy, this was the reason why they wanted to kill me.  I was an enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say they wanted to kill you?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, they did.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of them were there in the group?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I can't tell the number, but it was a group.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet you were brave enough to approach them, knowing they intended to kill you?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I decided to go to them because I didn't want them to go and attack me in an IFP area because where I was staying was an IFP area, so I knew that if they would come and attack me there they will kill other people as well, other IFP members.  That is why I decided to go, so that if I die it will be just me, not other IFP members.

MR LAX: If I could just interpose, Mr Mtanga.
	Where were these people when you approached them?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: At Kwakanjaza.

MR LAX: Yes, I know it was Kwakanjaza, but where at Kwakanjaza, were they sitting under a tree, were they standing next to the shop, were they at a taxi rank, what were they doing?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: When I decided to go to them they were at Kwakanjaza bus stop or taxi rank, but when I arrived there they were standing under a tree not far from the main street.

MR LAX: Some of them were sitting down, some were standing?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: They were standing.

MR LAX: All of them?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I can't remember very well whether there were other people who were sitting down, but I only saw them standing and the two whom I shot were standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure of that?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I am sure.

MR LAX: You just shot them there and then, you didn't chase after them?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: No, I didn't, I just shot at them and I also watched the others running away, I didn't chase after them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you struggle with any of them?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I didn't get that question.