Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Mr Kgoele in preparing for your evidence today you were shown the bundles that were prepared, the documents that were prepared, the statements including those photographs of Fox Street and the Magistrates Court.  In other words have you seen ... (intervention)

MR LANDMAN: (Inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  From pages 117 to 138, Mr Chairman that is of the supplementary documents, that is the second - we can call it the second bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Of which I have a copy but my two Committee members do not as yet.

ADV PRIOR: ... (Inaudible) your question Mr Chairman, we'll have those made available.  I just need to establish, you've seen the photographs and the documents put up in this bundle of documents?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And it's been explained to you that various people were injured other than police personnel?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No it was not explained to me, all I know is that, from what I could gather from the news that policemen were injured and some died.

ADV PRIOR: According to the lists that appears or a key that appears at page 50, one lady, Colchetty, an Indian lady was injured and there was a lady Mashode Magubane was injured, just to name two.  What I'm, what the question really is driving at Mr Kgoele do you accept that as a result of the bomb that people that are listed in this document were injured and/or suffered damages in respect of their property.  Do you accept that?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Am I correct in suggesting that the bomb in that vehicle went off in Fox Street, that is the Fox Street entrance to or the Fox Street side of the Magistrate's Court building?

JOSEPH KGOELE: No it's not in Fox Street.  I know Fox Street runs from east to west.

CHAIRPERSON: ... (Inaudible) photograph that appears at 117, page 117, photograph 2 and if you  turn the page 118, photograph 4 and the photograph that appears at page 123, that is photograph 14 as marked on that photo, that shows where the bomb exploded, is that correct?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes on page 123?

ADV PRIOR: What street is that, could you just tell us the name of the street.  Do you know?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I don't know the name of the street but it's not Fox Street.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  And if you look at page 123 we see the entrance to the Court there, is that no the main entrance, is that the rear entrance to the Court?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: ... (Inaudible - beginning of tape) area surrounding the position where you detonated the bomb.  In so far as, there seems to be many vehicle parked there?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I know there was a car park around there, they are still there today.

ADV PRIOR: And people ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Would people be there parking when they go to work in the morning and collecting their cars when they left in the afternoon?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: As would people be entering or leaving the Court premises?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Repeat your question.

ADV PRIOR: As would people who had business at the Magistrate's Court, they would park in that area and use that entrance if that was the entrance they decided to enter the building by?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I should think so.

ADV PRIOR: The vehicle in which the bomb was planted, was this a Golf, a Volkswagen Golf?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: I simply tie that up to page 33 of the same bundle, it seemed to be the vehicle of Mr Kinzey, whose vehicle was reported missing on the 17th of May of that year.  And just one last aspect, you - as I understand your evidence you were acting under orders, is that correct?

JOSEPH KGOELE: (Inaudible).

ADV PRIOR: Were you acting under orders?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: What would have occurred, what do you think would have happened if you disobeyed those orders?

JOSEPH KGOELE: It was unlike for me to disobey the orders.

ADV PRIOR: I didn't catch it, it was unlike you?

JOSEPH KGOELE: (Inaudible).

ADV PRIOR: If you had decided not to carry out those orders and kill policemen there what would have happened to you, would you have been reprimanded, would there have been some punishment?

JOSEPH KGOELE: I'm having a problem with the hearing, I think there's something wrong with the lines.

ADV PRIOR: Could the witness be given another headset please?

JOSEPH KGOELE: You may repeat your question.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, can you hear me now?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: All I want to know, you were carrying out orders, you were a member of the MK structure, you were answerable to, we've heard General Shoke and General Nyanda.  Were you under some compulsion to carry out orders within your military set-up?  My question is what would have happened if you didn't carry out the orders?

JOSEPH KGOELE: The problem is with your question is that we entered Umkhonto weSizwe voluntarily because of the circumstances of (indistinct) so it was unlikely for me to disobey the orders so I wouldn't have disobeyed the orders.

ADV PRIOR: Right let me ask you more generally.  Was there any process within the MK structure for people who disobeyed orders?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes there was.

ADV PRIOR: What was that, that's what I'm getting at.  Please tell us?

JOSEPH KGOELE: What's the relevance of this Mr Prior, there has been no suggestion that he was under any compulsion.

MR SANDI: And he didn't disobey those orders anyway Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: In your application at page 6 of the bundle, you indicate that the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court was a justified target because the institution was perceived and seen as one that enforced the laws of apartheid or the apartheid laws.  Is that correct?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: So if I understand your motivation, primarily it wasn't only just to kill policemen but it was also to cause possible damage towards that institution.  In other words it wasn't only aimed at policemen, it was aimed at the Magistrate's Court or the judicial system operable at the Magistrate's Court at that time?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Cognisance was taken of the fact that as a result of the explosion, damage might be caused to the Magistrate's Court and on that basis that's why I say that.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman, sorry may I interrupt.  Regarding the question of Mr Prior on the disobedience and perhaps in fairness to this witness you can look at the document of the ANC of August 1996 on page 87, in the right-hand column at the bottom, there's reference to this aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

MR WAGNER: August 1996, I think it's called the first submission, page 87 right-hand column at the bottom.  Sorry Mr Chairman Mr Prior has asked me to read it.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

MR WAGNER: Ja it's not, this is not backing my case but it says here:  "Outright disobedience and failure to obey an order ...", this is now part of the MK Code of Conduct, "Outright disobedience and failure to obey an order promptly may have serious consequences.  A soldier who thinks that he has been given a wrong order must obey it first and if need be complain afterwards to his commander".

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman before I ask any questions, can I put on record that the street or road in which the explosion occurred was Bezuidenhout Road, which is on the western side of the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court.  Mr Kgoele did you know at the time you decided to park the car outside the Magistrate's Court that a major police station, John Vorster Square, was about two blocks away?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: From your observations of people parking their cars in the parking area close to the scene of the explosion, did you get the impression that these people were shoppers who would return to their vehicle after a short period of time or was it people who had parked their vehicles there for the day?