Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-15

RUSSELL ALLY: Were you aware of any threats to your husband's life prior to this fatal shooting?

MRS FOURIE: No, none.  Except there was an office which was operating under us where there was a problem.  I mentioned it in my statement which you have in your possession, about discord about a claim form and a leave form about a certain member of the watch unit and this person was very unhappy about it and he said that he would still get him.  And then he left.  He left the office.

RUSSELL ALLY: We have heard over the last few days about Mbcoto and we have also heard about kitskonstabels.  Was your husband involved in training of any of these groups or individuals, as far as you know?

MRS FOURIE: Everyone was in an instructory position at Kwandebele at the time to train people.  He did work with special constables but at the time he was at the watch unit, protection unit and he did not specifically train them.  He was merely the station commander and they worked under him.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Fourie your statement says that this happened while your husband was waiting for Warrant Officer Kekane.  Did you ever communicate with Warrant Officer Kekane was to what could have happened or why he wasn't there at the time when you know this happened?

MRS FOURIE: Well we did talk about it.  My husband used  another road from Marble Hall where we lived and Warrant Officer Kekane at that time was at the police station but he was busy with registers and he had to meet him at a
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designated place.  But my husband got there before him, got to the designated meeting place before him.  I assumed so. 
And when my husband arrived there the car's lights weren't switched off yet and the engine wasn't switched off yet.  They were shot dead immediately so they were ambushed into that position it appears.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Fourie, you make reference to a man who was denied leave and who was not happy with it and he made threats.  Did you ever know the name of this man?

MRS FOURIE: I think I do have the name.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you give us the name or later, not necessarily if you don't ...

MRS FOURIE: If I am not mistaken it is Frans Masiza.

CHAIRPERSON: Then after the death or after the shooting or after the ambush what more did you learn about this man?

MRS FOURIE: Nothing.  I never heard about him again.

CHAIRPERSON: There was never even mention of his name by those who might have been investigating the shooting of Mr Fourie.  What I mean is in the course of investigation was this name ever given to the unit that was investigating the shooting of Mr Fourie?

MRS FOURIE: Yes, at the beginning I gave it to them in a statement.

CHAIRPERSON: In this terrible situation was your husband ever in a position to - okay, you were in Denalton yourself, how did you see the situation here, I mean with the activities of Mbcoto and the way it was treating people and the way there was general lack of order?  You know wasn't there even a hint that there might be insecurity for some of the police officers at the time?

MRS FOURIE: No, not as far as I know.
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CHAIRPERSON: What thereafter was your feeling about the people in this community, more especially when you have the idea or the impression that it could have been committed either by a single person or by an organisation, you know in which case that organisation could have been commonly supported in this area, what then were your feelings about you know the people in this area as the community from which you know your husband suffered so dearly.

MRS FOURIE: I never harboured any feelings of hatred against the people because revenge is inappropriate.  I believe that justice will be done and that there is a higher authority that will take care of that.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mrs Fourie thank you very much for coming to testify.  It is almost ten years now since this event but I am sure that especially today it must still be very fresh in your memory and also coming back to these parts.  You may want to know that the Commission does try to the best of its abilities to investigate all cases that come before it, with the aim of trying to establish the truth, trying to get answers to questions which are very important for the next of kin.  They would like to know what happened and in your late husband and your late son's case there have been some attempts been made by the Commission.  You will see that Warrant Officer Kekane who you mentioned is here with us today and he has also volunteered to come forward and to the best of his abilities and what he remembers to try and shed some light.  You may also be aware that there are so many different theories, different accounts of mistaken identity that maybe it was not your husband, maybe it was someone else who people were after.  This was a period of intense conflict where on all sides people were identified as
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targets, if you were in the police, if you were in the military, if you were perceived to be a member of Mbcoto.  If you were perceived to be a comrade, a UDF, you became a target during that particular conflict.   The sad thing is that it seems as if these were people who were at the wrong place at the wrong time.  You say your son was not even part of the police force and here he just happened to be visiting so we will try and follow up still on some of these leads.  We can't make promises to anybody other than to try and see what we can establish and if we do find out anything more then we will certainly let you and your family know.  But thanks and I think that the important thing at the end of the day, even if we are not able to get the answers to the questions, the important thing is that you did testify, that this will be part of the report which the Commission eventually produces and that the death of your husband and the death of your son will not be something that is unknown but something that the commission actually comments about and reports about.  Thank you very much for coming.