Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Yes, there was a Landrover, I think that was Mr Carr's Landrover and I travelled behind that Landrover to the scene.  As I recollect then the deceased was in my vehicle, together with Apt van Zyl and myself in my vehicle and when we arrived there we all got out of the vehicle, the deceased then lay down on the grass, sleeping.  I then saw - this business of the submachine gun is not very, very clear, but I then saw the submachine gun come out and it was given to W/O Carr ...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Just on that point, can you remember at any stage having been specifically requested to bring this weapon and you specifically refer to a machine gun with a silencer?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Mr Chairman, I can't specifically remember being asked to bring it, however it is quite possible that I was asked to bring it because at the time I was working with all the firearms at Natal Security Branch Headquarters in Pietermaritzburg.  I had many weapons under my control.  I was doing a lot of public relations exercises, talks, going around to police stations, familiarising the uniform members of the police what to look for. 	I had all kinds of Warsaw pact material, from weapons to bits and pieces of landmines and things like that, so I had a lot of weapons at my disposal.  When any weapons needed maintenance or servicing or needed clearing, I was normally the person who got given the job to do it, because I was doing much investigating at that time, I was the inspector of explosives.
	I do recall that there was at that time in the safe in Pietermaritzburg, whether it was at that time or not, I did see a Walter(?) submachine fitted with a silencer and the bag that goes with it to pick up the cartridge cases.  I remember that.  It is possible that I was asked to bring it, but I cannot recollected that.

CHAIRPERSON: You've stated in paragraph 35 that you had at least your pistol and some form of assault ...(intervention)

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Yes, Sir, I always travelled, if I travelled any distance out from my base, I always had my pistol with me, that's for sure, but I always carried some form of assault rifle with me.  It might have been - it could have been an R1 rifle, but it could also have been one of the many Warsaw pact weapons that I carried.

CHAIRPERSON: Could it have been this weapon that's been used?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: No, I doubt that very much, and the reason for that, Sir, is that the - I'm a bit of a firearm specialist, and to silence a weapon you have to reduce the speed of the bullet to below the speed of sound, which means it's hitting power is not all that good.  So I would not have been too happy carrying something like that in my boot.  If I was going to carry an assault weapon of any type, it would have been something that had the necessary hitting power.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you were aware that there would be an elimination of somebody?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Then again, I wouldn't have carried it either unless I was asked to bring it.  So it's possible that it could have happened, Sir, but I cannot recollect it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: As I understand the tenor of your evidence, you're saying that you carried your pistol, an assault rifle, and it is possible that in addition to that you carried this submachine gun.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: It's possible.

MR WILLS: ... with a silencer.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: It's possible, Sir.

MR WILLS: Now turning to paragraph 37 of your affidavit, you indicate that to the best of your knowledge, that - and I'm quoting
"A black male who I think was called Robert Rupert or Robin ..."
Those are the names that you actually recall this person being referred to.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Those are the names, or that is what sticks in my mind.  The name was either Robert or Rupert or something like that, one of the "Rs", or Robin.  That sticks in my minds but I couldn't tell you why.  Maybe one of my colleagues who was with me used that name, if so I can't remember who it was.

MR WILLS: But you clearly don't remember the name Scorpion being used.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: No, never.  The first time I heard that name was two weeks ago when I saw the bundle for the first time.

MR WILLS: Now I want you to tell us what happened when you arrived at the farmhouse.  And you can take us through from paragraph 39 in your affidavit.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Well when we arrived there everybody seemed to have their allotted duties worked out, everybody, well not everybody, but people knew what they were supposed to be doing and I must say that Mr Schoon was not present, he had gone, I later found out he had gone to get the boat ready.
	So at this stage it was Apt van Zyl, W/O Carr and myself, and I was then told what was going to happen, this person was going to be killed and that the body was going to be taken to the dam shore and then we were going to load the body onto a boat, take it to an island and destroy it.  That's what I was told.

MR WILLS: Yes.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: We weren't at the house very long and I noticed that the deceased was lying down, as I told you, and I realised then that he was going to be killed.  This didn't sit very well with me I can tell you.  So I actually moved away from the scene as I couldn't face this murder, it's something I didn't want to see.  I then went back to my car which was around the corner from where the hostage was lying and I rummaged in my boot.
	As I was moving away I saw Mr Carr moving towards the deceased, with the submachine gun, but that's the last I saw, when he disappeared from my view and I walked towards my vehicle.  And while I was rummaging in the boot I heard the shots, in the boot I heard the shots.

MR WILLS: Now you say you heard the shots.  Obviously there's a different sound between a silenced submachine gun and a pistol.  Can you tell us with a little bit more accuracy what you actually heard or what you can remember hearing.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Absolutely, Mr Chairman.  I did hear the silenced weapon fire first, followed by two, perhaps three, unsilenced pistol shots, rapid, rapid succession.

MR WILLS: You also say that whilst Carr and ...(indistinct) were at the body at the body at the time you didn't see exactly who shot.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I did not see.

MR WILLS: Now referring to paragraph 41, page 18, you say you were in a total shock, why is this?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Sir, I'm not in the practice of seeing people killed like that, Mr Chairman.  I was in shock.  In fact that incident has shaped my life since that day, about 20 years ago.

MR WILLS: It was obviously a very traumatic experience for you.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I'm afraid it was very traumatic for me.

MR WILLS: Tell us what happened thereafter, after you had heard the shots.