Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-24

WITNESS:   Okay, that's all right.  Sure.  Okay, sure.  So eventually then - okay, I am just going to cut it then.  So eventually then I was sent to Lusaka, then when I got to Lusaka then unfortunately I found the ANC guys at the airport, and then from the airport they wanted me to come and explain at least what happened to Lusaka - I mean to Zimbabwe.  Then I said okay, I was prepared to explain, but not under whatever the ANC auspices.  I wanted to go back to the UN.  Unfortunately they insisted until they finally, you know - they, you know, took me by force from the airport up to the movement's residence, which was called RC.  So when I got to RC - and unfortunately to my surprise then I was locked up.  And then I stayed in the detention of the movement for about two to three months.  I don't remember very well.  I can be maybe after four months.  I can't remember very well, but I remember that the day I eventually managed to escape from the movement's detention was on the 9th of October, and then eventually I managed to be in the hands of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees on the 10th.  No, it was on the 8th, and then on the 10th I managed to be in the hands of the UN or whatever officials.  That's basically the - you know, the brief story that I can relate so far.  I mean about my detention by the Government and also detention by the movement.

PROF MAGWAZA: It's quite a difficult experience you had, and I am aware that you could have told us a lot.  Obviously you must be feeling there are some gaps, you didn't tell us as much as you should, but we would ask a few questions which can help us also to bridge whatever information is lacking.  Firstly, going back to the time when you were abducted by two Security Police, Marapo and Prinsloo, you said they asked you to jump into the river and go back to Lesotho.  Wasn't that strange that they should send you back to Lesotho instead of arresting you or detaining you?  That was the common practice.  Why do you think they sent you back to Lesotho?

WITNESS:   Well, it might have been strange, and unfortunately I also, you know, I tried, you know, to think why they did that, if you get the point.  My mentioning of their names, you know, today, is basically to make it a point that maybe they explain why they did that, if you get the point, because it was strange to me, and unfortunately it was strange to everybody else, if you get the point, why they didn't kill me at that point in time, why they did not arrest me, why they did not detain me, if you get the point.  Unfortunately I will be unable to respond on their behalf, because I would like them to explain that as well.

PROF MAGWAZA: The other question, if you clarify, at one point in time you made a decision that you were no longer going to carry the missions and you wanted to go back to school.  What made you change?  What was it that made that shift from carrying out the missions to wanting to go back to school?

WITNESS:   The shift was, as I indicated - I am going to put it this way.  It was - you know, when I made that shift I cannot say that I was important, I was just like any other comrade.  You know, my contribution was similar to the contribution that any other comrade had made, you know, in the organisation, but when I made the shift I am sure that many people who had confidence in me became, you know, disappointed - disappointed and frustrated.  And the shift that I made was simply because, as I indicated, there was a feeling of insecurity at a certain point in time, that something was wrong in the organisation.  And the feeling was basically made by the fact that many comrades - or let me say some of the comrades were basically, you know, killed immediately on their arrival inside the country, if you get the point.  And sometimes, you know, I was one of the people who used to wonder how ... (inaudible - end of Side A, Tape 2) ... certain things when we were doing them they wouldn't reach the South African Security Police, but when at that point in time some comrades who basically, you know, were at a higher - some sort of higher structures of the organisation were arrested, then that sort of, you know, increased the suspicions that I also had that there was something wrong in the organisation, if you get the point.  So ... (intervention)

PROF MAGWAZA: They were arrested by whom, if I could ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   Well, unfortunately certain comrades in the organisation were arrested because it was said that they were selling out.

PROF MAGWAZA: So they were arrested by the organisation itself?

WITNESS:   Ja, some of them were, you know, arrested because the organisation felt that they were selling out, if you get the point, you see.  And when comrades like those sometimes were arrested because they were selling out then we started asking ourselves, I mean if they were selling out how many more people were selling out in the organisation itself, if you get the point?  And basically I also started, you know, feeling insecure that it might have been possible that some of the people - I am not saying that it was the case, I am saying I only thought that it might have been possible that some of the people that I was supposed to report to might have been themselves sell-outs.  I am sorry to put it that way, if you get the point, you see.   And that's basically one of the reasons that made me change.  I started, you know, suspecting people around myself, you know.  I don't know if maybe they suspected me as time went on, but basically that was the main reason why I decided that I was not going to take the missions any more.

PROF MAGWAZA: The other question is you say you were abducted.  You say you were abducted by Zimbabwean Security Police, they put you on a flight to Lusaka, and that on the other side of Lusaka you were met by ANC Security Police.  Were the Zimbabwe Security Police working together with the ANC Security?  How did that happen?

WITNESS:   Well, you know, I don't want to start making insinuations, you know, like those, if you get the point.

PROF MAGWAZA: Ja.

WITNESS:   But I was also surprised, because when I was fetched from the refugee camp in Zimbabwe, and then straight to the airport, to Lusaka, I was surprised to find ANC guys waiting for me.  And also one other thing that I did not understand, when I was in the movement's detention or whatever, at that time I am told that Ms Mpisi, who was the protection officer, a UN protection officer in Zimbabwe - I am told, I don't know - approached the ANC in Lusaka.  She first approached the Zimbabwean Government, wanting to know about my whereabouts, and the Government told her that I voluntarily left Zimbabwe for Zambia.  And again I am told that the UN approached the ANC office in Lusaka about my whereabouts, and the chief rep at that point in time said that he didn't know where I was, and said that I never reached, you know, the ANC office, if you get the point.  And it was not until I escaped that all these things came out, that I did not leave Zimbabwe voluntarily, and that when I was in Lusaka the entire period I was in actual fact in the hands of the organisation.  So I cannot really say, if you get the point, that the Zimbabwean Government was working with the ANC, but it might have been possible that certain officials were in connivance with the movement.

PROF MAGWAZA: Ja.  I know we have spent a lot of time, but one last question almost.  You said you were detained for four months under terrible conditions.  Can you give us just a sense of what those - how those conditions were?