Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

MR WEBSTER: Is there any suggestion that until Mr Botha had shouted "Police, stop" continuously that the driver of this vehicle had done anything whatsoever - in paragraph 21 - to indicate flight, to indicate any attempt to ram you, is there?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: There is?

GEN STEYN: Yes.  The vehicle tried to push us off the road on more than one occasion.

MR WEBSTER: General, I will repeat the question and if it's necessary that it be interpreted to you let it be interpreted to you.  Paragraph 21 - until Botha shouted "Police, stop" continuously, is it correct that there is nothing in paragraph 21 to suggest that that vehicle was in flight or that that vehicle was trying to ram you?

GEN STEYN: This vehicle was busy driving along and we had to catch up to it and we had to try and stop that car so that we could gain some time so that the reaction unit could also catch up to us to then support us in whatever steps we thought necessary and the indications are there in that paragraph that this vehicle wanted to push us off the road.

MR WEBSTER: General, were you armed?

GEN STEYN: No.

MR WEBSTER: What arms did you believe these murderers, terrorists, to be carrying?

GEN STEYN: At that stage we suspected that it would have been AK-47s.

MR WEBSTER: And you want this Commission to believe that somebody, members of your force, whether Botha, Wassenaar, Nduli or whoever, would have let rip with service pistols when a trained terrorist was carrying an AK-47 which he could put on automatic?  Is that what you want us to believe?

GEN STEYN: I had attended various scenes and was involved in various operations where I never carried a firearm because I had people with me who were armed and who can then perform that task.

MR WEBSTER: Is that the answer to my question?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: I want to suggest to you that none of you would have ever done that and in fact what you would have done and logically what you would have done was you would have radioed Breytenbach to tell him of your position, where you were, to confirm the direction in which you were because according to Botha you were in contact with him although communication would break down from time to time but you would have waited until he arrived there on the scene, is that not so?

GEN STEYN: No, I couldn't wait because as I've explained we were not just driving leisurely in a normal way, there was a possibility that this vehicle could evade us and get away from us existed and anything was possible, anything could have happened before help arrived.  So no, I can't agree with that.

MR WEBSTER: General and I want to put it again to you that there's nothing in your application to suggest that the occupants even were aware that they were being pursued and you're on their left hand side of the kombi and the right hand side, bearing in mind, Sir, that you've said that the traffic was very, very heavy, that they would have then suspected that here are the police after us.  There's nothing to suggest that in your application, do you agree?

GEN STEYN: Yes, it would appear to be so but I didn't know who was where at that stage so we had to make the best of that situation at that moment

MR WEBSTER: Are you finished?

GEN STEYN: To stop that vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: Are you finished?

GEN STEYN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: What was that radio there for?

GEN STEYN: On occasion I said on the radio without using radio terms I simply said we are driving in this direction and we notice a vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: Why didn't you get confirmation of the whereabouts of the people who were supposed to execute the dangerous duty?

GEN STEYN: I can't remember whether they were communicating with me, that I told them where we were.  Things happened very carefully at that stage, everybody is talking on the radio at that stage and we were dealing with an operation where we wanted to arrest suspect terrorists and we wanted to get hold of them some or other way.

MR WEBSTER: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now he may have ought to have done it, he may have ought to have contacted Breytenbach, but they didn't do it.  My question is what is the conclusion you are seeking to draw from his failure to contact Breytenbach and allow Breytenbach to take control of the chase.  Are you suggesting something else?

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you merely saying that his conduct was not reasonable in these circumstances, is that what you are saying?

MR WEBSTER: In the end we are going to be arguing that there is no full disclosure, we are going to be arguing that the version is so inherently improbable that it could not be the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Generally speaking yes, but on this question about him not having radioed to Breytenbach, you know, are you suggesting this why did he do it?  He had a possibility of doing it, why did he step aside and allow Breytenbach to do it?  Now he didn't do it now how does that effect?

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, it goes to the entire credibility whether in fact ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But if it is true, assuming it is true that he didn't phone Breytenbach his credibility is not effected there, he is telling the truth on that point, isn't it?

MR WEBSTER: That's the big question whether it is or not Chairperson, unfortunately from his concessions I'm dealing with a man will serve of the truth when it suits him.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now we won't know ...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: Whether it was ever the truth or not.

CHAIRPERSON: We will know a lot but on this particular point he didn't contact Breyenbach.  Now my question to you is are you leading up to a point?

MR WEBSTER: The point that I'm leading to is that his conduct was so inherently improbable that he is not telling us the truth of what actually took place?

CHAIRPERSON: So what are you saying, are you saying that he did in fact contact Breytenbach?

MR WEBSTER: That in fact that this supposed plan of Breytenbach taking charge etcetera could not have been what was expected because had that been the plan and we're dealing here, Sir, with an operation which is not an operation in a lounge or in a sitting room as the General says, this is more of a military operation or a police operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: With precision, with plans and is not going to be jettisoned because somebody just decides at some stage to say "Stop, police, stop police", that we are not therefore being told the truth and that there is therefore not full disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what is the untruth as far as he is concerned on this aspect of the matter?  Do you think he is not telling the truth when he says he did not contact Breytenbach?

MR WEBSTER: Well we've just heard a version that everybody was talking simultaneously over the radio just now, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but now where does this lead to, this particular aspect now?  You see you are not going to suggest Breytenbach in fact was there ahead of him, Breytenbach's car was ahead of his car, you're not suggesting anything like that?

MR WEBSTER: In fact nobody would know where Breytenbach was.

CHAIRPERSON: We won't know?

MR WEBSTER: Ja, but they are the people who were there and they are the people who ought to enlighten us in such a fashion that at least we have a clear picture.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now carry on.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So now the clear picture you've got ...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: Is rather jumbled.

CHAIRPERSON: Is a picture with which you disagree?

MR WEBSTER: It's rather jumbled.

CHAIRPERSON: The picture he gives you, you disagree with it and you're putting it to him that it makes no sense because it was contrary to the plans?

MR WEBSTER: Absolutely and that if in fact that is what had happened then something must be explained.
	Can we take it any further than that, General?

GEN STEYN: I'll answer any further question.