Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : By the fact that he highlighted it to me and that he stated it clearly that if we had the road-block, we should remember that our target group was the ANC, SACP Alliance.   They were our enemies.   We had to destroy them and those were the corpses that he wanted to see.

CHAIRPERSON: : Oh, he did not only say the revolution is starting, I want to see the bodies, go and mount a road-block?  He in fact went on to say that you should tidy up ANC people and then kill them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : He directly said ANC, SACP Alliance is our target group, our group, who acted as guerrilla fighters on that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: : It may be that, you see you have testified about this point many times.   It may be that one of the occasions you gave details to that extent and it may be that occasionally you live up some of the details of that nature, but not always did you go so far as to say that he said:  `The revolution is starting, I want to see the bodies.   Go and put up a road-block.   Identify members of the ANC, SACP Alliance and kill them.'

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : The Application which I have submitted to this Committee has been written but I will reiterate that on the 12th of December 1993 after the Order Group Meeting, we were assured that the revolution was about to begin and it was discussed in secrecy that we hold a road-block, that we should have the necessary equipment.   He knew that we had done it before and that it had been effectively executed.   He knew that I had the necessary manpower therefore, and the target to be identified would be the ANC SACP Alliance members, that he wanted to see corpses.   He asked whether or not we had enough arms and ammunition, upon which I answered negatively, and he supplied two home-made pipe-guns/shot-guns.

CHAIRPERSON: : If you come across a vehicle full of members of the PAC, you know what PAC is, you know what I am talking about or you don't know?   If one of the vehicles arrive there and let's say all the members, all the passengers came out and told you: `look we are members of the PAC', what would you have done?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I would not have had a problem with them, because they were not part of my target group.   My target group was the ANC, SACP Alliance members.

CHAIRPERSON: : Thank you.

MR MALAN: : Mr Kloppers, may I just ask you - did General Oelofse really tell you that evening:  `Remember the ANC, SACP Alliance is our enemy?'

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : He stated it clearly that the SACP and the ANC was our target.

MR MALAN: : Why would he have told you once again who the enemy was and reminded you who the enemy was if you knew what to do?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I wouldn't say that he tried to remind me of it, but he wanted to remind me that that was my target for the evening.   That I was not to do anything else, that is why I reprimanded the others when they assaulted the two black men on the side of the road because we were supposed to identify ANC, SACP members by means of a road-block.

MR MALAN: : How long were you alone with General Oelofse after the Order Group Meeting?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : After the Order Group it was approximately 10 minutes and there were a great number of people who I had to see.   I still had to see to the acquisition of the ammunition and the arms.   It would have been approximately 10 minutes.

MR MALAN: : So you spent 10 minutes in his company and he did not give any other details regarding the order as to, for example, where the road-block should be or where you suggested you would be establishing the road-block.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : After he had given the order, I suggested to him where the best place would be for the road-block because I had done it before and I had prior knowledge of how to do this.

MR MALAN: : Therefore while you were still with him, you told him it would be at the Radora Crossing?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR MALAN: : What else did you discuss with him.   Are there any other details because I think that's the actual question here.   Did he simply say well go ahead, and you said yes because he trusted you.   You discussed the place with him.   What else did you discuss?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : He, or I informed him of where the place would be, the place that I believe would be the best place for a road-block.   When he said road-block did you think to yourself `Radora Crossing'?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Absolutely, because myself, Deon Martin and Anderson had previously held a road-block there.

MR MALAN: : At the Radora Crossing?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Yes.

MR MALAN: : And you said nothing else to him about what you planned to do and how you were going to do it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I said nothing else apart from the fact that I did not have enough arms, upon which he gave me two pipe/shot guns.

MR MALAN: : Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: : For what reason did you previously hold the road... mount road-blocks?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : This road-block was held in order to obtain certain equipment;  a blue light, jackets and so forth.   We wanted to test the equipment in order to see whether or not we would be able to pull vehicles off the road and if they would obey our commands.   It appeared to be so.   We pulled over a number of vehicles, packed up our equipment and returned to our homes.

MR DREYER: : Before you arrived at the road-block while you were still on your way there and you driving among the small holdings, the back vehicle stopped, the men jumped out and they assaulted two black men.   You say that you reprimanded them immediately.   Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No that's not what I said.

MR DREYER: : The first concept that you had with them, you reprimanded them immediately because that was not the objective of the operation.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That is correct.

MR DREYER: : But why didn't you ask them then?   Did you ask those two men that you assaulted, whether they were ANC, SACP Alliance members because if they had been, they would have been part of our target group and we may have assaulted them then.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No our order was to establish the road-blocks, then undertake the interrogation and then identify our target group.

MR DREYER: : Let us return to this detailed or undetailed order which you would have received from Japie Oelofse.  You have told us that he told you: `From now on I want to see corpses.'   Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : And then you gathered a bunch of people together, you used alcohol, you fetched reflector jackets and a blue light and you drove to a point and you established a road-block, which ultimately resulted in a tragic loss of life because you heard from him, and the only part of his order which was connected to loss of life, was the words:  `I want to see corpses.'

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : Nowhere else, not prior to the Criminal Proceedings and your statement to the police, during the Criminal Proceedings and during these proceedings, did you say that he explicitly stated to you:  `Sir tonight you will go to the Radora Crossing, you will gather your men, you will establish a road-block.   If you find people from the ANC, SACP Alliance there, if you have identified them as such, your objective is not to obtain arms and ammunition from them, but simply to identify and shoot them dead.'   You did not hear anything else?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : So what you are telling us is that the only aspect of this order which you allegedly received, was:  `I want to see corpses.'