Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct Chairperson.  As I have said, the chain that was requested of me, I have no knowledge of that, the clothing was burned, the money that was found was this amount that I wrote in here, R523-24 and that is why I mentioned it in the telex to Head Office.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Manzini, where is he today?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I'm not certain where he's stationed now, I think it's at Ermelo, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: He's alive and well?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Has he applied for amnesty in respect of this incident?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I don't know.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, do you have any questions?

MR MALAN: Mr Pienaar, did you have any contact with Schoon during these incidents?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, Chairperson, not at all.

MR MALAN: So you also did not have information about his possible knowledge, or not?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: I don't have the reference before me, but somewhere there was evidence that two hand grenades were found during the second incident, one in each bag.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that's correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Is that a pattern that people come in with one hand grenade?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, there were many instances where people had one single hand grenade with them.

MR MALAN: And then they only come in with one hand grenade?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: And as pistol, usually.

MR MALAN: What is the hand grenade for?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson, I don't know.  I've never gone into that all that much.  It was more for self defence if they should be apprehended.  A hand grenade does more damage that a pistol.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?  Any questions arising?

MR MOERANE: Mr Chairman, just one or two questions.  If you look at Bundle 3(a) the page to which you were referred, page 133, this was information furnished by you, not so?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Look at the first paragraph A(i).  According to that and according to the information that the source gave, two persons were expected to infiltrate.  Not so?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I see that, yes.

MR MOERANE: Does that refresh your memory?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I don't remember why I wrote two there, whether it was mentioned at some time I'm not certain.

MR MOERANE: Isn't that the factual position?  The fact that Mr Naidoo and somebody else were originally supposed to infiltrate and then the plans were changed at the last minute and four persons infiltrated?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson, I never knew that Mr Naidoo would be one of the insurgents, I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Moerane is putting to you, from here,  was it not your information originally that there would be two infiltrators?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I see what I wrote there but I cannot recall for which reason I mentioned that there.  I am not certain about it anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not the sort of thing you would have deliberately misled Head Office about?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I would not try to mislead Head Office.

MR MOERANE: Particularly Mr Pienaar that you furnished this report after the incident, on the very same day.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No Chairperson, I sent it on the 9th of June, the date is there.

MR MOERANE: I beg your pardon.  But everything was still fresh in your memory there?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that the information regarding the property of the deceased was not entered in any police document or record book, like an SAP 13 or any similar record book?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I don't recall that.  I don't know whether it was done or not, I doubt.

MR MOERANE: Well, at the Piet Retief Inquest, you testified that it was not done.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Then it is so, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Paragraph 9, sub-paragraph 2, "A hand-written note", do you remember what that was about?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I cannot recall whether it was an address or a message, or what it was, I'm not certain about it anymore Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Do you remember a Parker pen that was supposed to be sent to an address?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I later read in the book of Col de Kock of a pen that was sent to Swaziland.

MR MOERANE: Yes, to the address that was in that particular note.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It may be possible.

MR MOERANE: The idea being that the recipient of that pen would be killed.  In other words, the Technical Division of the South African Police would make it possible for the recipient of that pen, as soon as he tries to make use of it, to be killed.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is so, but it was not part of the operation.

MR MOERANE: One final question.  Now this source of yours, was she involved in any other operations where people were killed?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Besides these two, no Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: She was not involved in the Bane Molokwana incident?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Which one?

MR MOERANE: Molokwana.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No Chairperson, no.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Mr Pienaar, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now and I think this would
then be an appropriate time to take the short tea adjournment.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS