Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-26

ADV DE JAGER: Were you paid for political information?

MR MORUDU: I was not for political organisations.

ADV DE JAGER: No, for political information concerning politics. Were you paid for that?

MR MORUDU: I don't understand when you say "politics" it is maybe when we attending and we talk 
about our stationery and so forth, will that be classified as "politics" or not.

ADV DE JAGER: No, I think that may be related to politics, I won't say it is not politics but you know 
today what "politics" is?

MR MORUDU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Don't you know, politics in the general term concerning whose ruling the country and 
who has got the vote and all those kind of things?

MR MORUDU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you paid for any information of meetings dealing with those kinds of matters?

MR MORUDU: No, I didn't supply such information, because I didn't have it.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you asked whether you could supply such information?

MR MORUDU: I was, they at times forced me to give them such information but I denied such 
information to them.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, they forced you to supply, to give it, and then did you give it?

MR MORUDU: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Had you any information that you wouldn't give them about politics?

MR MORUDU: Yes, there was some information which I could supply at that time but I couldn't do it.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 191

ADV DE JAGER: You wouldn't do it?

MR MORUDU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So you were aware and you could differentiate about politics information and you 
decided not to give it to them?

MR MORUDU: Yes, it can be like that.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, Mr Morudu, that kind of information that you are talking of, the information 
that you did not provide to the security police, what kind of information was that?

MR MORUDU: Like the meetings other than student meetings which were to happen or to be held.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What meetings were those?

MR MORUDU: Of maybe like the Civic and so forth.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Sorry?

MR MORUDU: The Civic Organisation.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But why didn't you want to give information about the Civic Organisations to the 
security police?

MR MORUDU: No, it was against my conscience.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Why?

MR MORUDU: It was against my conscience, I couldn't just give them that and as I have already stated I 
didn't willingfully work with them, I was forced.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, but what I want to know is, the kind of information that you did not want to give 
to the security police, you say it is meetings of the Civic Organisations. Why didn't you want to give 
information about those meetings to the security police?

JUDGE MGOEPE: He says it was against his conscience because after all he was not willingly, he was 
not willing, he was 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 192

S MORUDU: forced into being an informer.
ADV.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman. Why was it against your conscience then?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Because he was - he did not volunteer to cooperate with the police he was forced, that 
is what he is saying. Is there any other reason other than you were forced to work with the police as to why 
you did not give them information?

MR MORUDU: It was just I hated them at that time and especially of the bombing of my home when my 
niece was killed.

JUDGE MGOEPE: We don't always get the answer we want by hammering the same question time and 
again Mr du Plessis.

JUDGE WILSON: When was the bombing of your home, before or after they 
arrested and assaulted you?

MR MORUDU: Three months before they arrested me.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, Mr Chairman, may I go ahead?

UNKNOWN: Yes Sir.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you.	Mr Morudu, you say you were paid sometimes and you were 
sometimes not paid?

MR MORUDU: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know why you were paid sometimes and not paid other times?

MR MORUDU: No, I didn't ask questions, they were very ruthless, even at that time, they would always 
swear at you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now, I am going to put it to you, Mr Morudu, that the reason why you were paid 
sometimes and sometimes not was that the security police only paid informers when they gave important 
information to them. What do you say about that? Can you dispute that?

MR MORUDU: I don't have comment on that one.
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 193

ADV DU PLESSIS: You don't have any comment?

MR MORUDU: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The information that you gave to this security police, did you give correct 
information or did you give them false information?

MR MORUDU: At times I gave them correct information and at times I gave them information which 
came from Mamasela which he gave me and I wrote it with my handwriting and gave it to them.

ADV DU PLESSIS: This information that you gave to them, did it have anything to do with politics at all?

MR MORUDU: Yes, the one which Mamasela gave me, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: You mean the information that you gave to Mamasela?

MR MORUDU: Which he gave to me.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Which he gave to you.

MR MORUDU: He gave to me to give to the White cops.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, now what I want to know is did you volunteer any information from you side 
when you were an informer which was of a political nature at all?

MR MORUDU: I can't remember so well, but I was giving them  information which I knew they can get 
from anywhere.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Even if you gave them such information they came back for more, is that right?

MR MORUDU: Well, when they came back for more they were always swearing at me and trying to get 
more.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And they paid you for information that they could get anywhere else. Is that right?

MR MORUDU: I said, sometimes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes. Now, when they paid you for information did you also give them information 
which was 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 194

S MORUDU: just general knowledge and which they could get anywhere else? Is that what you are saying?

MR MORUDU: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: How long were you an informer?

MR MORUDU: About two years.

ADV DU PLESSIS: They never found out that you were only giving them general information?

MR MORUDU: At times they found out that is why they were keeping on threatening me saying that I am 
useless to them.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But did they come back to you for information again?

MR MORUDU: Yes, they were keeping on coming.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know of anything that happened as a result of any information you gave to 
the security police, any result of you giving such information?

MR MORUDU: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know of anybody that was arrested because of giving such information?

MR MORUDU: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Morudu, you said you were an informer for about two years?

MR MORUDU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: After leaving them, you hated them at that stage?

MR MORUDU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you at then join any political party?

MR MORUDU: Yes, in 1990 I joined the ANC.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you tell them about these people and what they were doing?

MR MORUDU: I told some of them.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you tell them that they forced you to 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 195

S MORUDU: give information?

MR MORUDU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And what information you in fact give them?

MR MORUDU: I gave them information about my organisation because, the Mamelodi Students 
Congress, because I feel that they will get it from somebody and as they threatened to kill me, they would 
eliminate me if I don't give them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Morudu, did you not as members of the Mamelodi Students Congress put blame 
onto the government of the day for the problems that you as students were facing?

MR MORUDU: Yes we did.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Morudu, you testified that you were kept at the Rust de Winter Police Station for 
two months.

MR MORUDU: Yes, that is correct.