Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  It was only one.

MR LAX: So it was just Nxuma?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR LAX: Okay.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: And then regional commanders.  Now regional commanders would be regional commanders in different departments, intelligence, logistics, repossession units, commanders for the operations department.   It then runs down to area commanders down to a cell.

MR LAX: What is the difference between a cell and a unit?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, there isn't that much difference but I understand there is a difference, conventional speaking, but that's not the point for today.  The emphasis between a unit and a cell, you say that a cell is relatively smaller than a unit.  It may be a cell of two people of three people but when we are talking about a unit it would be a commander, a commissar and a logistics officer, ordinance officer, depending on the tasks and the purpose of setting up that unit.

UNKNOWN: And when you went out on a mission you are talking about a unit, a unit goes out on a mission and not a cell, would that be correct?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No, not necessarily, a unit, a cell could 	go on an operation.  I mean, an operation is not necessarily going to a golf club and attack people.

UNKNOWN: So it depended on the complexity of the mission whether you'd have just a small number, which I'm assuming would be the cell, or the larger logistics, intelligence whatever or the components making up a unit, is that what we determine?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR LAX: Please proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Sorry, before you continue, there was just one matter that my colleague raised with you and I wanted to just pick up on it and finish before we move on, so it doesn't get lost.
	You've said that generally speaking the director or his deputy would know about all operations, is that correct?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, generally, but I can only be an expert for this particular operation.

MR LAX: In regard to this particular operation, how did the order to execute this operation and to embark upon it, how did that mechanism actually work, as far as you are aware?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Can you come again?

MR LAX: Well, this operation, the target was chosen presumably, then a reconnaissance of certain intelligence must have been carried out and then a decision was taken to execute the operation.  At what stage was the director involved and at what stage would his permission have been required?  That is what we would like you to explain to us.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I will start with the last part.  The approval from the director of operations for an operation would be obviously before the operation is carried out, where the political objectives for the operation have been discussed thoroughly and it has been established that it will not run out of the mandate of APLA, as given by the PAC and it did not have adverse political effects on the image of APLA and the image of the PAC.

MR LAX: Who would have discussed that?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I think to put the record straight and so that you are clear in any questions that you may ask, let us just confine ourselves into the run-up of the golf club attack until it was carried out.

MR LAX: Just answer my question, you don't have to give a longwinded thing.  You're explaining and as you are explaining I'm interjecting with small little bits and pieces.
	So you said it would have been discussed and these would have been the implications.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR LAX: Who discussed those political objectives?  Just give me a straight factual answer.  If you don't know, say you don't know.  It's really quite simple as far as I'm concerned.

UNKNOWN: If I might just interject.  I understand the applicant simply to be saying that it's easier for him to relate how questions to this specific application that is before us ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Well, that's precisely what I'm doing.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, but you are talking about those operations, not this operation.

MR LAX: With all due respect, we're talking about this operation.  You are busy telling us about this instance, you've made that quite clear, that you want to talk about his instance.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, and therefor you must not say: "those operations", say: "this operation".

MR LAX: Please just answer my question, this operation.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this operation, who would have thoroughly discussed this operation to have decided that it would not have an adverse effect on the political image of APLA or the PAC?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  Particularly in this case you had myself, comrade Skumiso and comrade Leklapa.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand, and I'm looking at your affidavit now, the original suggestion came from comrade Leklapa, he gave you instructions and identified the target and then you had discussions after that?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mbandazyo, I think you will have to help me here.  I thought you're still busy trying to lead your client, to go through the main parts in the affidavit?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I was going to ask whether they are through with the questions they are asking so that I may proceed.
	Let's go to paragraph - I think they have covered it, I was in paragraph 9, let's go to paragraph 10. 
"The armament used in the operation was very true the efforts of comrade Skumiso Nxunuba who was my immediate senior"
	Explain that to the Committee, what does that mean?

ADV SANDI: That's a very broad question Mr Mbandazyo, do you mind if I ask a very specific question?
	What sort of armament was used?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: In paragraph 17 where I have given the breakdown of the armament.  I don't know whether it's ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Can you just confirm that paragraph?  Do you confirm that is what was used?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR LAX: Then we don't have to ...[intervention].  Please continue Mr Mbandazyo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: One point that you could perhaps clarify which I was a little confused with.  On paragraph 17, is it correct that two of the handgrenades were offensive grenades and two were defensive?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, I think there was a balance between offensive and defensive grenades.

MR LAX: Was there any difference in the actual makeup of the grenades or was it just the intention of how you intended to use them that made the difference?  Do you see what I'm saying?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I don't know what drags you to ask that question because perhaps you are, you have an interest in these reinforced hand grenades or what?

MR LAX: Just answer my question.  Was there any difference between, is there a difference between an M26 offensive grenade or an M26 defensive grenade or is the only reason they are listed differently because of the purpose for which they were intended to be used?  It's really a very simple question, I'm not emphasising anything.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, that's enough now, I've heard you.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: There is a difference between an offensive and a defensive grenade.

MR LAX: What ...[intervention]

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: In the shrapnel effect.

MR LAX: Thanks, that's fantastic, that helps me a lot.