Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR BOOYENS: What kind of activity was Madaka involved in?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Apart from the fact that he was used by Siphiwe Mthimkhulu to, according to information, to bring  arms into the country, or to attempt to bring arms into the country, he also brought in pamphlets and helped distribute them.

MR BOOYENS: What type of pamphlets?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: ANC inciting pamphlets?

MR BOOYENS: Yes?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: He also found places where people who came into the country, could be housed safely and he was also involved in the recruitment and in the sending out youths for training outside the country.

MR BOOYENS: What type of training?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Military training.

MR BOOYENS: Was there any information regarding his involvement in arms caches?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, the so-called DLB's that he had to establish.

MR BOOYENS: You said that he was continually in the company of Mthimkhulu.  I know we cannot work strictly according to rank in this context, but where would you place him with regard to Mr Mthimkhulu in their circle of activity?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, he was directly under him.

MR BOOYENS: His number 2?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, he was number 2 at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Although he acted covertly and Mthimkhulu overtly?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: With reference to the fact that you investigated black activities, were you satisfied that there was a connection between the ANC and the SACP on the one hand and COSAS on the other hand?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was the activation of the youth and the making ungovernable of the areas, part of the strategy of the time in the Eastern Cape?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And were both Mthimkhulu with his overt and Madaka with his covert activities, instrumental in these activities in the situation?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: In your opinion as Commander of the Black Affairs Branch, how prominent was the role?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: They played a very large role in destabilisation in the black townships.

MR BOOYENS: Could you please give us more particulars regarding the type of destabilisation you encountered in the black townships in the year 1981 and more particularly 1982 in the Eastern Cape?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, the black areas had nothing normal about them.  The schools couldn't continue.  Delivery of goods by means of delivery vehicles could no longer take place safely, crime could not be properly investigated in the areas.  Our soft body vehicles had trouble moving in the areas.  And I could say that it was the beginning of perhaps not even a beginning, but a far progressed along the road towards disabling government in this area and on its way to a situation of anarchy.

MR BOOYENS: Okay, now according to your personal belief, what was the final objective of the ANC/SACP alliance?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: To bring the then government to a fall in a violent manner.

MR BOOYENS: And then to establish themselves in that position?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And did you see your task as Security Policemen to prevent this?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Against the background, if we should turn to page 18 of your application, against the background of that which you had told us about the situation in the black townships.

ADV DE JAGER: May I interrupt for a second.  May I ask the staff whether there is a possibility of opening windows somewhere or that better ventilation be established in the hall?  Could the staff kindly see whether they could do anything to improve the ventilation in this hall?  You can proceed.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Against this background, second paragraph approximately two weeks before 18 April, you, the previous witness and the first witness, who was then Commander of the Section, had discussions?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, it was approximately two weeks before 14 April, that is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Just to get complete clarity, Colonel Erasmus as was his rank at that stage was Divisional Commander, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: What did that mean, what resorted under his command as far as Security Police is concerned?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The whole Eastern Cape region, in other words all the activities or operations of the Security Branch around Port Elizabeth and in the area were under his command.

MR BOOYENS: In other words, if you refer to the Eastern Cape, you mean up to  the border of the Ciskei?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And it included areas such as Queenstown, Cradock, everywhere?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, it did not.  It included Cradock, Grahamstown, Fort Beaufort and Uitenhage.

MR BOOYENS: Graaff-Reinet as well?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, it did not.  It did not include Graaff Reinet.

MR BOOYENS: So the Eastern Cape area was a smaller area than what is today referred to geographically as the Eastern Cape?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At any rate, were you informed regarding the activities or the continued activities and the expanded activities of Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And that gave rise to your going to speak to Mr Van Rensburg?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.  I had that information.

MR BOOYENS: But was there information which indicated that they had increased their activities because they were known to you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: What made you decide to discuss the matter with Colonel Van Rensburg?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, firstly Mthimkhulu had been elevated by the youth to a martyr.  The situation in the black townships had deteriorated because of speeches and incitement from his side.  Something had to be done about the matter and I realised that if at that stage, we were to detain him again, we were to encounter problems and for that reason I went to now General Van Rensburg, to get assistance.

MR BOOYENS: In other words to get his aid in this matter?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Why was Mr Madaka discussed?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Madaka was equally involved covertly and if we couldn't handle Mthimkhulu, we couldn't handle him either.

MR BOOYENS: So as far as you were concerned, he played an equally great role?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And the fact of this greater role played by the two of them, did you and Mr Van Rensburg discuss the matter to find a possible solution?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Were these two people, as far as you were concerned, two prominent people whose activities had to be curtailed?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you regard the curtailment of their activities, something that could contribute to the  stabilisation of the situation in the Eastern Cape?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I believed that.

MR BOOYENS: The discussion continued and over the period of two weeks, you yourself, Colonel Van Rensburg and Colonel Erasmus all discussed the matter, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You heard the testimony of Mr Van Rensburg that you considered all the legal options such as detention, restriction or house arrest or charging the person with something specific, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Now, what was the position with regard to Madaka?  Why couldn't you for example place him under house arrest or charge him with something?