Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

DIRK COETZEE: Mr Flemington's men went out to the T-Junction 5 km from the Komatipoort security police offices, they turned off from the main road...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Ja I only want to know whether somebody showed them the way afterwards because you were already on the spot now.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct they went to meet them.

UNKNOWN: And when they arrived the wood and everything was there already.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: When you arrived was it there already?

DIRK COETZEE: No it was transported there with a 4X4 vehicle by Archie Flemington's men.

UNKNOWN: While you were there?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: You knew this area.

DIRK COETZEE: Not this specific spot Mr Chairman, it was apparently a farm by the name of Affenstond made us of by the...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Ja but you've been stationed at Oshoek on the Swaziland border for quite a couple of years?

DIRK COETZEE: Yes Mr Chairman, that's four border posts down the Swaziland Border.

UNKNOWN: Ja did you know the Lebombo border post?

DIRK COETZEE: I knew it Mr Chairman, I know of it...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: And Otto was stationed there for about 8 years at Lebombo.

DIRK COETZEE: I can't say how long but he was stationed there, that's correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: When did you become aware that he was stationed at Lebombo?

DIRK COETZEE: During meetings that I had whilst being at Oshoek border post when border post commanders and security branch commanders met at the regional office in Middleburg Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So if there was somebody who would have known the vicinity it was Otto?

DIRK COETZEE: That's - no not Otto, Otto wasn't there at that stage.

UNKNOWN: No but I'm asking, I don't say he was there but he was quite - he knew this area very well.

DIRK COETZEE: Being stationed there of course Mr Chairman, familiar with it.

UNKNOWN: Right.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Coetzee I'm just going to try and short-circuit this by suggesting to you that you had to tell negative stories against erstwhile colleagues to save your own skin with your new employers.

DIRK COETZEE: No it's not at all true Mr Chairman, I'm up till this day on not such a good footing with my new colleagues.  It was a question of the truth and...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee I think you have answered, you've said yes, that's adequate.  But thank you we don't want speeches.

MR JANSEN: But Mr Chairman with the greatest of respect he simply didn't say yes.
(the speaker's mike is not on)

CHAIRPERSON: ...lengthy answers we're going to stop you.  But just answer as briefly as you can please.

DIRK COETZEE: I will do that Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now you said two things when Roy Otto and Mr de Jager questioned you, you said if I heard you correctly that you got to know him at meetings. You were a few border posts down.

DIRK COETZEE: No Major Flemington I got to meet Mr Chairman.  All the commanders and branch commanders (...indistinct) the border posts and the Security Branch offices.

MR BOOYENS: And you said Roy Otto was no longer there?

DIRK COETZEE: According to documents that were shown to me by my legal team Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: That's not what the documents say.  They say that he was transferred to the then Evander on the - oh yes but on your date he wasn't there of course, in November.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman, as confirmed by Mr Archie Flemington.

MR BOOYENS: Of course the fact that he was perhaps on leave during August on your version is of course completely immaterial.

DIRK COETZEE: Well I can assure you Mr Chairman, I've never met Mr Archie Flemington and he wasn't on the scene.

MR BOOYENS: No I think you're talking about Roy Otto Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: Otto, Otto, sorry I'm talking about Otto, sorry sorry.

UNKNOWN: Would you recognise the other two people if photographs are shown to you?

DIRK COETZEE: If a photograph of 1981, yes according, I might be able to pin-point the man Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Because it must have been or probably people in the vicinity with Flemington, part of his unit.

DIRK COETZEE: He names them specifically in this bundle of documents, the three non-commissioned officers that were with him at the time, he did not question when the killing was, he just when he was asked referred to three gentlemen that were on his personnel at the time.

UNKNOWN: You can't say whether one of them in fact attended the scene?

DIRK COETZEE: I've got my ideas but I don't want to speculate without seeing these photos Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: What photograph of Roy Otto did you see?

DIRK COETZEE: An id card photograph taken somewhere the '81 as a sergeant I think Mr Chairman, that was handed in to this Commissioner, I think it was handed in.

MR BOOYENS: Did you see the original or just a photocopy?

DIRK COETZEE: No just the copy Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: So from a black and white photocopy of about three centimetres by two centimetres you positively established that it wasn't this man?

DIRK COETZEE: I've never met him in my life Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you can't remember the name of the shooter?

DIRK COETZEE: No I cannot Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Was he introduced to you?

DIRK COETZEE: He would have been introduced on his first name but I can't recall it Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You would accept that in August Roy Otto of course was still stationed at that border post with Archie Flemington.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And Mr Coetzee you say you've never met Roy Otto?

DIRK COETZEE: No I have not Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You and Paul van Dyk were there?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: How did Flemington and company get involved in this as well?

DIRK COETZEE: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

MR BOOYENS: How did Flemington and company get involved in this as well?

DIRK COETZEE: It was in his area Mr Chairman and it was agreed by Mr van Rensburg that we would do it in that area seeing that he's coming for the very adjoining area to that.

MR BOOYENS: Did you discuss with Mr van Rensburg that you were going to bring Flemington and his men in to this?

DIRK COETZEE: No I just said in Eastern Transvaal and I just accepted that he as the senior officer, I was the most senior officer a lieutenant colonel would contact his old friend Major Archie Flemington to notify him, I will get my go ahead from headquarters and report to him at the time.

MR BOOYENS: So are you saying that van Rensburg contacted Flemington?

DIRK COETZEE: As far as he's concerned I reported to him at his offices earlier that day before we left for the area where the shooting and the burning took place.

MR BOOYENS: And Flemington apparently knew about this?

DIRK COETZEE: He was with us Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: No when you reported to him he apparently knew about this?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: No forms about it, no worries, nothing.

DIRK COETZEE: Not at all Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now Mr Coetzee you, the little bit of contact you had with this witness, with the deceased, you certainly didn't get the impression that any apparent sign of brain damage ...(intervention)

DIRK COETZEE: I could notice nothing peculiar at all Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Notwithstanding that fact you still agreed to carry on with killing the men?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct, I accepted Mr van Rensburg's word for it Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Ja but Mr van Rensburg is not a neuro surgeon.

DIRK COETZEE: Neither am I  Mr Chairman.