Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

RUSSELL ALLY: ... destruction of property, Ephraim Mogale and I am going to ask Ms Joyce Seroke again to assist with his statement.

MR MALAN: Mr Mogale, will you please stand for the oath.

EPHRAIM MOGALE: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.  You may sit.

MS SEROKE: Good afternoon Mr Mogale.  You are here to tell us about what happened in February 1986 when your parents house was bombed.  Could you please continue.  Just summarise what happened.  Just tell us briefly about what happened.

EPHRAIM MOGALE: Good afternoon.  The problem started when I was released from prison in 1985.  It was in October.  I am trying to give you a background of what happened.  I will not take long.  I just want to make you understand about what happened.

MS SEROKE: Not interrupting.  We can see that you have got someone who is accompanying you.  Is that your wife?

EPHRAIM MOGALE: Yes.

MS SEROKE: We also welcome her.  I thought you were one of the briefers.

EPHRAIM MOGALE: Maybe she does not suit me, but I believe that she does suit me.  Good afternoon again.  I will just tell you briefly so that you can understand what happened until
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my parents house was bombed.  I said that the problem started in October, the tenth of October when I was released in Robben Island where I was arrested for five years.  I served six years when I was charged with the Terrorism Act. So that means I was taken to Robben Island and I joined my President, Nelson Mandela.  Actually, I had rested in prison all those years, but when I was released it got worse.  It got worse, I was actually troubled because when I came to Uitvloeg, that was the last village in our area, it was in October.  
 Around December actually there was this talk of taking Moutse into KwaNdebele Government and people did not like that.  They started having talks about it everywhere.  That is when I understood that the problem had started.  The way things were at the moment, people were very angry and I was trying to mediate and talk to people, actually wanting to understand what was happening.  I actually wanted to understand because I was someone who was very interested in politics.  That is why I was arrested for five years in Robben Island.  I actually interfered.  The second reason why I interfered is that this was a programme because there were people who tried to make this a racial issue amongst the Ndebeles and the Pedis.  That is why I did not understand this because it was actually something what is happening now.  Actually the main reason which made me to be part of this whole thing is that UDF was one of the organisations which was trying to help and I was trying to make peace between the Ndebele speakers and the Pedi speakers.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot hear well.

EPHRAIM MOGALE: Actually we succeeded in making people meet so
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that they could talk about their problems.  I realised very early that the Royal kraal was actually not in line with the State, they did not agree with this whole talk and they wanted the whole nation to stop having conflict.  I think we succeeded in that because at the end people who were the leaders in saying that the Ndebele tribe should be killed, they actually lost support at the end.  There were no more leaders at the end just like now when the apartheid Government is dropped.  So even in those days all those people who were causing conflict were put aside and they were forgotten.  That is how we succeeded at the time.  
 All this caused me to be assaulted because everybody knew me that I cam from Robben Island.  They thought problems started when I came back fro Robben Island.  That is how the Government thought at the time.  Those people came to me.  You must understand that the KwaNdebele police at the time could not go to the Moutse area.  They were afraid that they did not have evidence because people who were most concerned about this whole thing was people from Moutse.  When these two policemen were killed it was very serious.  What I am trying to say is that the other reason which caused us to start organisations was to control people.  That is how we formed the organisations.  We wanted them to follow the right organisation so that there should not be chaos.  
 The way I heard was that people from Nylstroom they came and they threw stones all over the house.  I was very hurt, you know, I took it very seriously.  I was not hurt because I was arrested, but people destroying my father's house really hurt me because my mother is a domestic worker.  She worked as a domestic worker for years and he started
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building the house, she started building the house from the foundation until she finished it.  The whole house was full. That is why I was so hurt, because she worked hard for it and they use to tell her that they were going to kill me and she was heartbroken when I was in Robben Island.  So when I came back I was hurt because my father's house was broken.  Actually I did not understand this because my whole family was homeless after it was broken.  What I am trying to say is that we have an example.  They were praising themselves saying, yes, we have defeated him.  
 Lieutenant Bekker, when I was detained in 1990.  I was detained with King Matede.  Bekker said to me I know the people who destroyed your house, but we left them because we did not have enough evidence.  Everybody who was supposed to given evidence disappeared.  There was no evidence at all.  That is all I can say about the burning of my house and I could not stay at home anymore.  You must understand that I was now in hiding and the SACC helped us a lot because they provided clothing for the kids.  They said there is not kind of help, but we will just see what to do, but even today we do not have a house.  We are staying at Bophututswana.  We are not at Moutse.  
 There was this unrest in Moutse and Moutse was like Vietnam because the police could not control the situation anymore.  They could not get into the township anymore.  There was not any link anymore between the Moutse people and the police.  Now there was this communication.  The comrades would spread their pamphlets.  The police would also retaliate by spreading their pamphlets.  The police would come and control the townships.  Just after they have left the comrades would come in and control.  This was a real 
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fight.  I want to say the negotiations in South Africa came to our rescue because the situation was terrible in Moutse.  Very small children were also involved.  They did not care whether they lived or they died.  Everytime there would be slogans chanted taking comrades to the cemetery.  Those comrades who have died.  I want to say the whole community of South Africa helped a lot by negotiating.  I really respect the South African community.  At least we have reached a stage where we are now aware that war is barbaric and I am sure and confident that the South Africans will avoid any situation leading to a war.  I want to thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I did not allow you to clap him hands and you can now give him a hand.  He was a very impressive speaker.

MS SEROKE: Mr Mogale, you have just said now that the problem was not racially based.  It erupted because of fighting for the land.  Now, I want to know, presently as were are talking, what is the situation?  What is the attitude between the two groups of people.