Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-09

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I am aware that you are seeking to catch a plane.  You are?  So I will perhaps ask my colleagues if there are questions they want to put to you and then we could excuse you.  Doctor Boraine?

UNKNOWN: Mr Rhamaphosa thank you very much for that very clear outline of what happened as you saw it and in your own experience as part of the planning.  I want to try and get some clarity about one issue.  On page 11, 23[iii] you quote the magistrate's order.  Now in his order he mentions that the gathering is to take place at the Bisho stadium yet it was clearly the goal of the marchers to go beyond that and go to the CBD.  Was this, were you and others who were in charge, aware that this was going beyond the order?

MR RHAMAPHOSA: Yes as we clearly indicated, many attempts had been made to communicate the intention of the march and through these attempts we had sought to make it clear that we wanted, intended and were committed to marching right into Bisho and we even had the route clearly mapped out and the route that we had wanted to take was communicated, was communicated to the authorities and it was also a matter of discussion when the magistrate gave the order.
 So when he gave the order, when he gave the order this order was found by nearly everyone, leaders of the Tri-partheid Alliance as an order which once again, once again sought to frustrate the commitment that we had to attain free political activity.  May I say sir, that there had been a number of other applications to magistrates in this area, specifically to this one and this magistrate was known to be the type of magistrate who just refused to grant permission.
 The fact that the permission came in the early hours of the morning, was, in our view, another attempt to frustrate the march because he could have communicated this a lot earlier, but it was communicated on the morning when preparations were already finalised.

UNKNOWN: Just a couple of other, and I'll keep the questions very, very brief and perhaps if I just give them all and you might want to just respond to them.  
 First, in your knowledge, having been there, were any of the marchers armed?  That is the first question.
 Second, tell us again, you were there, you would have been aware if anyone had used a loud hailer, if any warning shots were fired, and any helicopter was used, any kind of warning whatsoever as to the intention of the soldiers to open fire.  That's the second question.  I know you have dealt with that but I think it's very, very important to get this on the record again.
 Third, why in your view, I know it can only be your own view, why do you think they opened fire?  You must've thought about that afterwards as you talked.  What prompted that?
 And finally, looking back, is there anything different that you yourself would have wanted to see happen, knowing, what you couldn't know, knowing that the soldiers were going to take the drastic action which they did.  In your planning, in your thinking, is there anything different, looking back now with the wisdom of hindsight, is anything different that you would have done or would have demanded of your group to have done that could have possibly prevented this massacre.  Just those questions.   ... end of Tape 2, side B ...

MR RHAMAPHOSA: [indistinct] ... no knowledge whatsoever that any of the people participating in the march could have been armed.  I saw no arms, I saw no firearm, I saw no stick, I saw nothing that amounted to an arm or a weapon.  Your question, was there any intention by the soldiers to warn us - the answer to that has to be no.   There was no signal, no attempt to even begin to signal to us that they will open fire.  There was no loud hailer as I said.  There was no fire opened into the air, nothing whatsoever.  We were just, we were still standing right against the razor wire, with the Peace Secretariat on the other side, and they had a number of vehicles in between them and I was one of those leaders who was standing right up against the wire and a little bit further on we could see soldiers standing and some of them lying flat on the ground and if they had warned us in any way, I think we would immediately have noticed it and we would possibly have responded to it. Just as we were talking, they opened fire.  The Peace Secretariat people were also taken by total surprise.
 Why did they open fire, I think their opening fire had a lot to do with their intention to prevent the democratic processes that were underway in the country - to prevent it even by force of arms.  Oupa Gqozo himself on a number of occasions had said that he would never agree that the Ciskei should be incorporated into South Africa.  That we would have a free and independent liberated South Africa but the Ciskei would remain an independent island and we would have to deal with them as though it's a foreign power.  I think it had a lot to do with that.
 Is there anything different that we would have done had we known, now in hindsight, that they would have opened fire?  Had we known that they would have opened fire, yes I think we would have dealt with things differently.  Our discussions, negotiations with them could have been different but we just did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala?

UNKNOWN: [indistinct] ... Mr Rhamaphosa said, as a follow-up of Dr Boraine's question - there are allegations that some of the shots came from above, specifically from the helicopter.  I know this was a very confusing day but what were your observations on that?

MR RHAMAPHOSA: Yes I have heard of those allegations and also had sight of the helicopter that hovered at some stage above us.  I do not have evidence before me that can confirm or refute that but I have heard of those allegations.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [Indistinct]