Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, I follow you, but he has no business going to talk to Jimmy Jones, unless you instruct him to get further information that he then brings back.  Just to explain the technicalities and therefore to explain our difficulty in understanding what your instructions were.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: He can go and talk with Mr Jimmy Jones even though we did not tell him to go and talk with him.
	For example, he could come to us and tell us we must not mention Mr Jimmy Jones when we make our applications for amnesty, that is what Mr Jones also, it came from Mr Jimmy Jones.  If he denies this, Mr Jimmy Jones also came and told us the same and told us that he did tell Mr Bandazayo he must come and tell us not to mention him and asked us did you do the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come, did Mr Bandazayo come to you and tell you you must not mention Jimmy Jones in your amnesty application, are you saying he did this?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is what he said yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he come and see you and say this?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: In prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he visit you in prison, your Attorney, Mr Bandazayo?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, he used to visit us in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he take statements from you as to what your defence was?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Statements relating to what, because we are talking about the statement we made to the Police and you are talking about amnesty applications.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you if he asked you what the true position was, that you must tell him what actually happened and as an Attorney normally does, takes a statement from his client.  Did he do this?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: We did this.

CHAIRPERSON: So from that statement, would he have known that the confession that you made to the Police, was untrue?  He could have compared it with your statement, is that what you are saying?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As I have said sir, from the beginning, it is easy for him to know that the statement we made at the Police, is a lot of lies in it.  It is very easy for him to establish that, Mr Bandazayo, because when he made those bail applications, he was the one who was applying for bail on our behalf, having this statements from the Police, and the Police were rejecting our statements, opposing our statements we made with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, I am getting the impression that you are refusing to commit yourself or answer any question, indicating that you made statements to Mr Bandazayo that that is where he would get information from.
	Did you make statements, did he come and interview you and write down what you told him about the events?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, I answered at the beginning and said when you asked as to whether Bandazayo came to us, and I said he did, and we told him what we told the Police when they arrested us.
	Mr Bandazayo got those statements when he was applying for bail on our behalf, at East London.

CHAIRPERSON: So you told him what you told the Police, didn't you tell him the truth?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, I think we are talking about statements that we made with the Police.  Mr Bandazayo, we told him only what we told the Police, which is lies.  Those that were lies.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can you just repeat that last bit.  Just your answer again, what did you tell Mr Bandazayo?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: We told Mr Bandazayo what we told the Police, that is the lies.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  At the time when the 7th of May 1997, when this second application was made, the amnesty application and the statement 14, at page 14 of the papers was put up, your relationship with Mr Bandazayo, that was still at a good level, you hadn't fallen out with him at that stage, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: You see, I want to suggest to you that it is strange that if he wanted to protect Jimmy Jones, why he would on earth have put up your confession which directly implicates Jimmy Jones, unless of course it was the truth?  Do you understand what I am putting to you?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I hear you sir, what you are telling me.  We do not know how, why he took those statements and appendixed them to our amnesty applications, but with the intentions of protecting Mr Jimmy Jones.  My thoughts are the reasons why he took the statements with the applications for amnesty, because he knew it had a lot of lies.
	It is not the same as when I make an application for amnesty saying all the truth.  The statement I made with the Police is not the same as making an application for amnesty.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, Mr Mbambo, I think you know very well that what you have just said is hardly an answer to the question to you.
	The question to you is, why should Mr Bandazayo attach a statement by you to your application form, a statement which directly implicates Mr Jimmy Jones, if it is true that Mr Bandazayo wanted to protect Mr Jimmy Jones?  Can you explain that and not talk generally?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see sir, if you don't accept my explanation, let me make this easy.  I do not know why he took that statement and the confession statement, and attached it with our application for amnesty, and sent it to the TRC, while he is protecting, Mr Bandazayo.

ADV SANDI: You have no other, do you have any other reasons for coming to the conclusion that Mr Bandazayo wanted to protect Mr Jimmy Jones, are those the only reasons why you came to this conclusion?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: There are other reasons sir.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will move on.  At the time that you made the statement, this confession, TNT and Kid were dead, you knew that.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: And is it correct, you could have put the blame on them, you could have said that they gave you the instructions to do these acts, they were, well to the extent that Kid, sorry TNT was the local Commander of your unit, you could have implicated him and the Police could not have taken it any further, because they were deceased, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

MR PRIOR: I will refer you to page 14(g) of the bundle, where you, sorry Mr Chairman, 14(h), I want to go straight to the event, where you indicate quite clearly towards the bottom of the page, that Kid told Tiznado who is your co-applicant, Mr Ncamazana, to shoot and he in fact started to shoot at Bahai.
	From that statement you clearly indicated that it was Mr Ncamazana that fired shots in the church which killed the deceased at Bahai.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I see it sir.

MR PRIOR: You say that is not true?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It is not the truth sir.

MR PRIOR: Well, why did you mention that it was Tiznado that killed the people there?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see sir, the time that I was making the statement at the Police, what I was trying to do, I was trying to diminish my guilt, to have myself appearing as a person who did not want to do and was forced to do those things by the others, to involve themselves.
	And further sir, it is not an easy matter to me to lie about a person who is dead.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, but weren't those your instructions?  Those were your orders to implicate the dead people and protect the living, and you followed orders?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It was not my instruction sir, when?

MR LAX: Well, you see you have told us already that you saw Jimmy Jones in jail, and he gave you those orders.  He gave you those orders to mention only the dead people, so that you could protect the living people.  He gave you those orders at the prison where you saw him, a couple of days after you were arrested.