Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: And despite these acts of torture, you never conveyed to them that Mr Kezwa was involved?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not mention Kezwa, I only mentioned Bapi Mswake.

MR LOWIES: But what I don't understand is, did you say in your amnesty application that Kezwa was involved in the drive by shootings?  That is now for Sebokeng matter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes in my amnesty application I did mention that he was present.

MR LOWIES: If you could just bear with me Chairman?  I'll revert to that question later, to that aspect later.
	Now what was Kezwa's involvement in the Boipatong Massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not see him on the night of the attack, I last saw him during the day.

MR LOWIES: The day of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes during the day of the 17th June, I didn't see him thereafter.

MR LOWIES: Did you see him after the drive by shootings of the 15th June '92?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I last saw him on the 17th, I was with him when he attacked in Sebokeng on the 15th June and I last saw him on the 17th June during the day of that date.

MR LOWIES: I see what you're getting at but the point is now on the 15th, once everything has now been finalised, you return back to KwaMadala, thereafter did you see him again and I'm not talking about the 17th, I'm talking the same day.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did see him.

MR LOWIES: What was he doing, was he just around, was he walking, was he in his room where he stays or what was the situation?  Driving around?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: And on the 16th, did you see him the next day, in other words after the shooting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did see him on the 16th.

MR LOWIES: And he was available the whole day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir I saw him on the 16th, he would sometimes leave so I don't know if he did leave on that day but I did see him at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: On more than one occasion on the 16th, or just on one occasion?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember but I did see him.

MR LOWIES: You see I must put it to you that I have instructions and endeavouring to lay this before the Committee and call necessary witnesses, but Mr Kezwa was at that stage in custody, 16/17 April he was in custody?   June, my mistake, June.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I last saw him on the 17th during the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but Mr Lowies, are your instructions that Mr Kezwa was in custody as from the 15th June?

MR LOWIES: He was already in custody.

CHAIRPERSON: On the 15th June.

MR LOWIES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what Mr Lowies is saying that according to his instructions, Victor Kezwa was already in prison about the 15th June.

MR LOWIES: As a matter of fact I think he was already late April in custody and he was released after the 29th June.  He was held in terms of the emergency regulations.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you understand what is being put to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: No, what he says he was already in prison by the 15th.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes but I last saw him on the 17th.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw him on the 15th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did see him on the 15th.

CHAIRPERSON: With you with him at the drive by shooting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  That vehicle was driven by Itswe.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see him on the 16th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did see him.

CHAIRPERSON: And you saw him on the 17th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, during the day.

MR LOWIES: So I must put it to you that you're a blatant liar and you don't care who you implicate in matters because  ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not lying.

MR LOWIES: You never before mentioned before the fact that Kezwa was involved in the drive by shooting, you did not mention it during your hearing or during investigation?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before I was afraid to mention his name, that is how I came about to mention Babi Mswake.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say Mswake and who?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Mswake and Babi.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they take part in the shooting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No they did not, I was just trying to get the police stop.

CHAIRPERSON: So in order to defend yourself, you simply pointed out to completely innocent people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: So who were completely innocent, give us all the names of the people that you pointed out as being involved?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that it was Babi and Mswake.

MR LOWIES: Were they the only innocent ones falsely accused by yourself?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: So were they also convicted?  What happened to them, were they tried?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were tortured and they were charged.

ADV SIGODI: And what was the outcome?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No they were released in Sebokeng at the Sebokeng Court.

MR LOWIES: Did you ever speak to them afterwards, after their release?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I only spoke to Jabu.

MR LOWIES: So are you not implicating Peens and the others in a similar manner that you have implicated Mswake and Babi just because you don't care?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not implicate them.  I have just explained what happened in Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the one Peens and Chaka came to you in Vereeniging, the only thing what they said was that if you reveal what happened in Boipatong they will kill you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is what they said.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only thing that they said when they visited you in Vereeniging?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that's what I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: They were speaking to you Mr Nosenga, so don't tell me that that's the only thing you heard.  Is that the only thing they said to you?  They were speaking to you were they not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is what they told me that if I divulge information about Boipatong they would kill me, they said I should not reveal that information.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all they said and thereafter they left?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes after that they left.

MR LOWIES: And was that the end of their story, the end of their contact with you regarding Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I last saw them in Vereeniging.

MR LOWIES: And you only saw them in Vereeniging once or more than once?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I recall them telling - arrived on one occasion and they informed me that if I divulged information about Boipatong they would kill me.

MR LOWIES: That's all they did?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is what they did.

MR LOWIES: But your evidence earlier on was that they tortured you, now they just threatened you, what is the truth now?

CHAIRPERSON: I think in fairness to the witness, she made a difference between Captain Havenga did to him and what Peens did and I think the Zulu word that he used insofar as Peens is concerned was "Ugshugumesa" as opposed to ...(indistinct) referring to what Havenga said, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Havenga and them tortured me with electric shocks.

MR LOWIES: And Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They threatened me that I should never divulge information about Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: To cut a long story short, you were never assaulted or tortured by Peens?  Never ever in your life?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is what they said, they said if I ever mentioned Boipatong I'll be killed.

MR LOWIES: No but that's not the question, the question is, is it your version that you were never ever tortured or assaulted by Peens as opposed to threatened?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They threatened me but they did not torture me.  The people who tortured me were Havenga and the other police officers.