Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: What I find strange is after the completion of this operation, you go to a police station where you have, according to you own concession the people you had with you were bloodied and you expose yourself to other police persons who could see that you were busy in an operation where there was blood involved.

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chair.  It was winter and at that point in the morning, there was nobody else in the parking area, except for the person at the gate.  This wasn't really a factor.

UNKNOWN: But how did you know this, you couldn't have known this beforehand.

MR J VAN ZYL: If the place was crawling with people, I would have made another plan.

UNKNOWN: And when you washed the vehicle, was there nobody else who could possibly see that you were washing your vehicle?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, there was nobody in the vicinity.

UNKNOWN: Were there any blood stains on your clothes?

MR J VAN ZYL: Not that I can remember.

UNKNOWN: Is it possible?

MR J VAN ZYL: It is possible, but I cannot remember that there were any blood stains on my clothes.

ADV D POTGIETER: Mr Hugo, is your client in a position to say that the witness is not speaking the truth in terms of the blood stains?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, he cannot be in such a position.  We have to determine who is talking the truth.

ADV D POTGIETER: I have to say, Mr Bizos was quite thorough, and if we do it once or twice, it does not matter.  I just suggest that you confine yourself to what concerns your client.  That you confine yourself to what is an aspect that concerns your client.

UNKNOWN: If I can just be of assistance here, is it not that you want to establish an argument because of the witness and instead of repeating all the witnesses testimony.

UNKNOWN: I wish at least to be in a position where I want to put it to this witness that this vehicle was not taken to the police station that morning.  And I want to know from this witness at least what happened to this vehicle and whether this vehicle is available for investigation, in this respect it is relevant in that it can indicate whether Mr de Kock heard correctly when he heard that there was a shot fired in the car.
	And if it would indicate that there was as shot fired through the rood, it could possibly have been repaired.  And the next question would be who repaired it?

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand the question of the shot through the roof is relevant, but I wish to.. can you concern yourself with just that.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, do you say that there is absolutely no doubt that a shot was not fired through the roof or any other part of the vehicle during the struggle with Mr Mkhonto?

MR J VAN ZYL: Not in my vehicle, no.

UNKNOWN: Did you inspect the vehicle afterwards to check if there were any shots?

MR J VAN ZYL: Superficially there were no other holes apart from the marks on the seat.

UNKNOWN: What happened to the vehicle afterwards?

MR J VAN ZYL: It remained my service vehicle until April 1986 and afterwards it remained at the branch.  It was a relatively new vehicle.

UNKNOWN: What was the registration number?

MR J VAN ZYL: It was a CB number, I do not recall what the exact number was.

UNKNOWN: There is one other aspect which I would like to address, where you say that false number plates were used.  Where did these false licence plates come from?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, there were a number of false plates available at the branch, which were kept at the branch for certain operations or for specific operations and I have no idea from whence they came.  I found them here where I arrived here.

UNKNOWN: From where did the branch obtain their technical assistance?

MR J VAN ZYL: I do not understand.  What type of technical assistance?

UNKNOWN: For example if you had to use false number plates and required other technical assistance, where did you get this?

MR J VAN ZYL: These plates were available at the branch.  They were kept in one of the drawers or cabinets.  Technical assistance, if you could just expand on that.  What type of assistance?

UNKNOWN: Well, let us say for example one of the vehicles was involved in an accident during a clandestine operation.  Where would you have it repaired?

MR J VAN ZYL: I should say at the police motor port, in Port Elizabeth. We had a technical division at the branch, but they didn't really deal with vehicles apart from the installation of radios and such other devices.

UNKNOWN: I would just like to address another aspect.  If I understand your evidence correctly, you arranged with Mr Lotz and Mr Taylor that they would remain at the one place.  If you would once again just look at the chart, that is "D" and "E", and that you moved with the black members to "C", after the murders had taken place.  Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And you told Lotz and Taylor by means of radio that they could ignite the corpses.  Is that correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, not entirely.  Before we moved away from them, I told them to remove the cuffs and that they could then ignite the corpses as soon as I had given the signal via the radio.  We used long distance radios on a channel.  I can't remember the channel.  The hand radios didn't go through the local generator.  It was a radio with very short - a short distance radio.  And that was my first signal from the scene.

UNKNOWN: My question that I'm actually engaging here is that the ignition of the corpses would have to take place simultaneously so that you could divert attention.  What I don't understand is that at that stage, there were already two fires in the environment....

MR J VAN ZYL: No, in that exact environment there was only the burning vehicle which was quite a distance, although it was a source of concern at that time.

UNKNOWN: Especially concerning point "B" on exhibit "M".  Were you not concerned at that stage when you were either killing the individuals or igniting the corpses, weren't you concerned that the police might check why there would be a burning vehicle?

MR J VAN ZYL: At that stage there were a number of fires every night in the black neighbourhoods.  However this area was a very bushy, very remote area which wouldn't necessarily have had fires.  "B" was still on the road and didn't indicate to the areas "A", "C" and "D".  Regarding "A", it was very close to the township itself.

UNKNOWN: Weren't you concerned that a road block might have been set up in the meantime, where you would be apprehended?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall whether or not I considered that.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, at this point I have no further questions.

DR W M TSOTSI: Did I hear you correctly, to say earlier in your evidence that you had asked your other accomplices, policeman, to bring knives with them?

MR J VAN ZYL: The members Lotz and Taylor, yes, Mr Chairman.

DR W M TSOTSI: In your examination by Mr Hugo, I understood
you say that you didn't want anybody to bring knives.

MR J VAN ZYL: No, we were referring to Sergeant Faku, Magaduku and Mr Sakati, Mr Chairman.

DR W M TSOTSI: Just those?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, because they were informed at a very late stage on that afternoon and I was not certain that I was going to make use of them at all during the operation and I wanted them to stand by in case something went wrong.
	I did not want to specify while it was not certain that they were going to take part in the operation, what the nature of the operation would be.

DR W M TSOTSI: Now, when you caught up with Goniwe and the others on the road, you said you asked him to get out of the car.  Out of Goniwe's car, is that right?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

DR W M TSOTSI: What time of day was it?

MR J VAN ZYL: That must have been shortly after 1100 pm as we said, Mr Chairman.