Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: You're going to be arguing then - just to make it clear, that the MK military headquarters which was established in Lusaka, and when comrade Slovo was appointed as chief of staff, took place in April '83 rather than the middle of '83?

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman.
	And what is more with a reference at page 48, reference to yourself, that special operations no longer reported directly to the President and that you, Aboobaker Ismail was appointed overall commander of special operations and that you reported to Joe Slovo at military headquarters, also took place in that month of 1983?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No.

MR VISSER: No.  Well you should know, tell us when were you appointed?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I was appointed in the middle, in or around June of 1983.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright. ...[intervention]

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: If a conference takes place, you know it takes some time when there is a handover.  For instance if we look at the current situation, General Meiring has resigned or has taken early retirement, it does not mean that General Meiring then left the next morning.  The change will come on the 1st of June.  Since the time when he's resigned to that point it's at least two months or just about two months.
	Now I suggest to you that what is stated here is correct and I do not understand what it is you are pursuing.

MR VISSER: I'll tell you what it is, I'm trying to be of some assistance, if I can possibly do so, to the Committee because I wanted to refer you to page 46 and I was simply going to ask you the innocuous question as to whether that organigramme is in fact correct for the period 1983 to 1985, because I'm going to suggest to you that special ops where it stands is incorrect and it should stand below military headquarters.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: After the reorganisation, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.  '83 to '85, that's ...[intervention]

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, it depends in which month you start in then, otherwise the ANC, when it drew up it's submission, should have then said: "date this, we have now changed right, as of that date.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Moreso and then clearly without a doubt, page 50 must be incorrect, so you agree?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, and I did point that out.

MR VISSER: Did you?  Oh, I didn't hear that.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Because when I was asked specifically I did say that I reported through military headquarters and these are meant to give people an idea of the structures.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Well, it's more than that isn't it, because it's the whole issue of the mandate that we're talking about.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So it's not just to give people an idea.  You place special ops - at page 50, special ops is placed - it wasn't you obviously, as reporting directly to the office of the President and we know from your evidence that is incorrect.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, if I may.  It says at page 46 at 5.6 in no uncertain terms, that we no longer reported directly to the President, in words.  At the time when the evidence was led we repeated that.

MR VISSER: But you see we're agreeing, we're not disagreeing, we're agreeing about this ....[intervention]

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, but you now suggest you know, on the basis of diagrams that have drawn up, not by myself, in this document, the ANC is attempting to give an idea of what existed.  Probably, I have pointed out that special ops should have sat under the military headquarters and at the point one goes back to what was said there, I did point that out.

MR VISSER: You know Mr Ismail, merely because you're being cross-examined doesn't mean that you're being attacked all the time.  I was just trying to point out an error to assist the Committee that's all.  I wasn't attacking you at all or the ANC.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I accept that but I'm saying that the Committee needs to understand it in that sense.

MR VISSER: I want you - I'm almost through Mr Rashid, Mr Ismail.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I'm known by that name too.

MR VISSER: Yes, but I suppose protocol would require me to call you Rashid and not Mr Rashid.  I want you to look at volume 2 page 95, it's the last document of volume 2, 95 to 103 of volume 2.  This document purports to be an extract from a book: "Spear of the Nation", I haven't checked it myself, I have no reason to doubt that it is so, and it commences at page 95 with the caption
"The Commander of Special Forces"
and it refers to Rashid Patel or just Rashid and it's got a photo which is a likeness of you, I'm not saying it's you, but it says:
"Aboobaker Ismail Rashid, Pretoria 1994"
and then it goes on up to page 103 where it appears as if there was some kind of interview with you, is that the correct summary or wasn't it an interview?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, it wasn't quite an interview, it was discussion with the authors of this book.

MR VISSER: And who were those authors, perhaps you can tell us?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: They had written a book on oil against apartheid or something about ...[indistinct] secrets revealed.

MR VISSER: Secrets revealed?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: And it was the people - if you look on page 96, it gives you the name ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Yes.  I have one simple question with regard to all of this, I'm not to detain you.  Is there anything in these pages, which I'm sure you are conversant with, that is incorrect?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, I haven't looked at it closely.

MR VISSER: Oh, oh.  Well I wonder whether I could ask you the favour in order to save time, wouldn't you tonight at your own leisure, just read through this and perhaps just tell us whether there is anything about you specifically that is contained in these pages which is incorrect.  Could you do that?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Certainly.

MR VISSER: And then I've got one last point which I wish to put to you Mr Ismail, again if you looked at volume 3, your application, at page 2 under paragraph 7(b), it is clear ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What is that reference?

MR VISSER: Page 2 volume 3, that's the application Mr Chairman.
	It is clear from that page and perhaps from other pages as well, I'm not sure, but I'm directing your attention to this particular page, it's clear that you were a member of the South African Communist Party, isn't that correct?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR VISSER: Is it not also true that the South African Communist Party was in alliance with the ANC during the struggle?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: It was yes.

MR VISSER: Were you in fact an office bearer in the South African Communist Party?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes, I was.

MR VISSER: Now my only suggestion to you - it's not a question, is that I find it amazing that you chose in your evidence not to enlighten this Committee as to what role if any, your membership of the South African Communist Party had in regard to your activities for which you apply for amnesty.  And that is not an invitation to do so now, I'm just placing it on record.
	Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, if I may state?  I don't see how my membership or my holding office in the SACP is relevant to my amnesty application.  I've made it clear that I was a member and if there are questions that are material that are material to it I am prepared to answer those.

DR TSOTI: Mr Ismail, did you apply for amnesty as a member of the Communist Party?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I have applied for my role Honourable Member.

DR TSOTSI: Your role.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: And I have stated I was also a member of the SACP.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, do you have any questions?