Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Verster, I think that it is my duty to bring to your attention that we will argue if you persist in not giving us the names of people, that you are indulging in selective amnesia in order to protect your erstwhile co-conspirators.  Now having done that, I am going to ask you again.  What were the names or give us sufficient information in terms of which we can identify the leaders of the regions that formed the Board or Committee of which you were the Managing Director.  Please do so.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson I cannot recall any other than Staal Burger, because I knew him for many years.  I do not recall the names after eleven years of the other regional managers and in previous documentation names were put forward to me and I said yes, but it is too far back.  I cannot state it better.

GEORGE BIZOS: How often did you meet, this Board or Regional Committee, under your Chairmanship and the overseeing of the General, how often did you meet?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: At times we met on a weekly basis, Chairperson.  At times we met on a monthly basis, at other times on a daily basis.  It depended on what had to be done and except for certain occasions when only persons who knew each other, we met and there were times when I went to the different regions.  We functioned in a cell structure and we did not necessarily all meet.

GEORGE BIZOS: Each one of these Regional Managers made proposals to you for the either elimination, or the dealing with and we will come to the other ways of dealing with, of individuals and you were working for them, with them and they were under your command.  For how long, Sir, how many years?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It depends, but let us say for approximately three years.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you asking the Committee to accept that people that you worked with for three years, who suggested to you that murder and other serious criminal offences should be committed against citizens and others of this country, and you can't give us another name other than that of Staal Burger?  Is that what you are saying?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: What I am saying Chairperson is that we functioned firstly under administrative names and then for each project we had operational names.  For every project we had a new name for every new operation and because of that, even when payment was done, even with the staff administration, we did not use proper names and that was approximately 11, 12 or 13 years back.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who appointed these managers?  Did you have anything to do with their appointment?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I did this in conjunction with submissions which I made to the Chairperson and the various Chairpersons who were in control.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you appoint people with mythical names?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Many a times.  We did that often.

GEORGE BIZOS: The leader of - the Managing Director of the CCB employed people to recommend the elimination of the citizens of the country without the Managing Director knowing their original names, is that what you are saying to the Committee Sir?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not in all instances, but it could have happened.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, no, no, no, please, you tell us that you cannot give us any other names, Mr Verster, because they used pseudonyms.  Now I am asking you whether you employed people to kill the citizens of this country, without knowing their real names.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, I answered that already.  In the case of Staal Burger, I know what his name is and there were certain persons who were aware, where we already have the names and lists of documents and when we adjourn these proceedings, we can see what names I knew before and these were members of Special Forces.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I am going to put to you Mr Verster, that the reason why you refuse to answer this question honestly is because you still owe loyalty, greater loyalty to your erstwhile fellow criminals to the truth.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson I take exception that I be called a criminal.  I was a professional soldier and Mr Bizos, all his questions he puts with that insinuation.  I am not a criminal, I was a professional soldier.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you a policeman before you became a soldier?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Never.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were any of your other Managers policemen before they became members of the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, there were some Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: What is your standard of education?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I've got a University Degree in International Africa Politics and qualified at Staff Course Level.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which university?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: UNISA.

GEORGE BIZOS: Unisa.  Did anybody ever tell you that murder was allowed by people who joined the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, we did not refer to it as murder.  We executed military operations, as it happens in all other countries in the world.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us deal with our own problems and leave other countries out of it, please Mr Verster.  Did anybody tell you, any responsible person, ever tell you that if you killed or caused somebody to be killed, you did not commit an offence because you were doing it as a professional soldier?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It did come up at meetings, where I, in the presence of the Chief of the Army, Gen Geldenhuys where he later denied certain instances and his definition was it was limited military operation where use was made of informal or as he put it, unconventional methods in order to kill the enemy, for example counter insurgency warfare.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you saying to the Committee that you were advised by the Head of the South African Defence Force, General Geldenhuys, that it was lawful to kill people?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I knew what the circumstances were, but I said that he did not advise me.  The previous question was whether anyone had discussed this with me and I gave you an indication that it did happen and on that ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: We dealt with that question.  The other question was, are you saying that the Head of the South African Defence Force advised you that it was not unlawful to kill people?  Please answer that question, Sir.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I thought that I had answered it Chairperson.  It was told to me that the killing of people in military operations of this nature, was a limited action, with unconventional weapons and unconventional methods.

GEORGE BIZOS: So you thought that you were the prosecutor, the investigating officer, the judge and the executioner and that there was nothing wrong with it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is not what I said.  What I do indeed say Chairperson, is that I protected the sovereignty of the previous government and I was firstly trained as an infantry man and the role of an infantry man is to kill the enemy under any circumstances.  I was a paratrooper and that was to kill the enemy behind enemy lines and in Special Forces, I was a Special Forces soldier, to execute the enemy by any means whatsoever and at the CCB I was trained and advised and completed international courses in order to act where we can execute maximum destruction of the enemy.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't your Minister deny that anybody in the South African Defence Force or at the instance of the Defence Force, was authorised to commit any murders?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know about that.  We founded a structure that discussed destruction and maximum disruption and we discharged persons from the South African Defence Force so that he could work in civilian clothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't hear that question Mr Bizos, if you could just repeat it please.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever hear your Minister of Defence say to South Africa and the world at large that no South African Soldier and no one at the instances of the South African Defence Force committed any wrongful act, did you never hear that?