Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

ADV VISSER: I next call Mr Swarts.  His application form is at B104, Mr Chairman.

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: (sworn states)

ADV VISSER: Mr Swarts, you are an applicant and you are asking for amnesty for your role in the events which took place on the 10th of July 1986 on the Breslau/Alldays road, which we mentioned here as well as for certain events which took place afterwards, is that correct?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: You have completed the official form for amnesty and that is in front of you, is that correct?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Have you read it as amended and does that set out your application properly in your view?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Chairperson, at 8(b), I would just like to say something.  Number 2, I would just like to correct the dates and the place.
	It is Chairperson, on page 104.

ADV VISSER: What are these amendments?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: From 1975 to 1977 I was stationed in Benoni and from 1977 to 1979 I was in Windhoek.

ADV VISSER: 1977 to 1979 at Windhoek?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: Apart from that, is the application form in order and true and correct?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: You refer to two documents, one is the submission made by the Foundation for Equality before the Law and the other is the submission made by General Johan van der Merwe to the Truth Commission, and you ask that that be incorporated into your application and you also include Mr Erwee's application in so far as the facts of the incidents are concerned?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Correct.

ADV VISSER: You also listened to the previous applicants who testified here.  Is there anything which they said which differs substantially from the way you remember the facts?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No.

ADV VISSER: And in your application you set out your political motive for the acts which you've committed and that is what you truly believed in?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Correct.

ADV VISSER: And lastly, Mr Swarts, in your actions and conduct did you believe that you were acting within the course and scope of your duties as a policeman?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Correct.

ADV VISSER: Mr Swarts, let us now go to the scene and what took place on the 10th of July.  Please explain to the members what is your speciality within the Police Force?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I was an explosives expert in the South African Police.

ADV VISSER: Was there another member who was also an explosives expert who is also in the Security Force contingent on the scene?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Correct, yes.

ADV VISSER: Who was that?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Warrant Officer Joggie Kruger.

ADV VISSER: Where were you stationed or placed during this incident?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I was in the casper.

ADV VISSER: You heard Mr Erwee's evidence as to what he had seen.  Can you briefly tell the members is that the same as what you saw or is there a difference in your observations?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: There is a difference yes.

ADV VISSER: What is that?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: When we drove into the road with the casper, after it had jumped around a bit and swayed a bit, I stood upright and I stuck my torso from the roof of the casper and aimed my weapon at the combi.
	As I was looking at the combi, on the right side of the combi, I noticed a person next to the combi.  He had a gun in his hands.

ADV VISSER: Just before you leave that, was it one of the Security Branch members or was it a Defence Force man?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No, it wasn't a member of the Security Forces or the Defence Force.

ADV VISSER: In other words to the left of the combi you saw a person?  As  you were looking at it, at the right side?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: As I was looking at the combi, to the right of the combi.  Right up, against the combi.

ADV VISSER: Was it a White or a Black person?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: It was a Black person.

ADV VISSER: Yes?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: In the same instant I saw Sergeant Sehlwana run away.  I only saw the back of him.  The next moment I heard a shout in a Black language.  I didn't know what was being said.
	The next moment a single shot was heard.

ADV VISSER: Was it a rifle shot or a pistol shot?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: It was a pistol shot Mr Chairman.  Immediately afterwards, there was a short volley of fire.

ADV VISSER: Before you get to that, did you notice Captain Born of the Defence Force there where you were looking at the scene?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No.

ADV VISSER: So you talk about a short volley of gunfire?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: During this somebody shouted in Afrikaans, they are shooting at us and I immediately shot at the combi.

ADV VISSER: Could you observe any teargas?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes, there was teargas in the combi.  But at that time I could see some of the passengers in the combi.

ADV VISSER: Could you see whether they had anything with them?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No.

ADV VISSER: Are you saying that you shot first and not Erwee or did you shoot after Erwee?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No, when I started firing, there was also other firing going on from within the casper.

ADV VISSER: And where did you aim your fire?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: At the combi.

ADV VISSER: How many shots did you fire, as you found out afterwards?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I didn't count the rounds left over in my magazine, so I shot fewer than 20 shots with my rifle.

ADV VISSER: You didn't swop magazines?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No.

ADV VISSER: And you only used your R1 to fire?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: And a signal came from Mr Erwee seize fire at some stage?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes, that is correct.  At that stage the teargas was already upon us.

ADV VISSER: I suppose you got out then?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes, I jumped out.

ADV VISSER: Where did you go then?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I ran into the bushes behind the casper.

ADV VISSER: Did you eventually return to the scene?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes.  After I had recovered from the teargas, I moved towards the river and in the river bed, walked up towards the combi.

ADV VISSER: Could you give an indication to the members of the Committee how long it took you from the time you jumped out of the casper to the time that you got to the combi?  Roughly?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: It is difficult.  I wasn't actually looking at my watch.  I really wouldn't be able to say but it would be about five to eight minutes, if I had to estimate it.  I can't be exact.

ADV VISSER: What did you do when you arrived at the combi?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Members of the Security Branch as well as from the Defence Force, were already present at the vehicle.  I was also just standing there, watching what was going on.
	Captain Erwee arrived there and chased the people away and said it was a dangerous area, because there was leakage of fuel and some of the bags in the combi were open and there were limpet mines and grenades visible.
	He chased the people away from the scene there and told me and Warrant Officer Kruger, to secure the area.

ADV VISSER: What does it mean in layman's language when you say that you had to secure the terrain?