Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

MR LAX: Except General, that we know he didn't and he's already told us.  He doesn't know what they did, he doesn't know whether they visited Shabalala's family or Ndaba's family, but those are things he would have been interested in, these were people in his custody, you know, he would have wanted to know what the family's response to these people being missing might be for example.

J A STEYN: Chairperson,...(intervention)

MR LAX: He didn't have any knowledge of that at all when it was put to him.

J A STEYN: I would think the right procedures would have been and I also accepted that this was the case, that Botha would have conveyed all the information that he had in his possession to the investigation team and this is the normal practice.

MR WILLS: You are dealing with someone who, in his own version, was extremely disappointed and disillusioned because he knew this was just a total waste of time, nothing was ever going to come of it.

J A STEYN: But Chairperson, the instructions were still that the matter be taken to its full consequence and investigated to its full consequence,

MR WILLS: You'll concede that it's very hard for somebody who knows this is an exercise in futility to really put his heart into something.

J A STEYN: You are now referring to - in all honesty Chairperson, I would say that Botha had, what he had known, and I also accepted this to be the case, that he had conveyed this in order to help the investigation team.  Not necessarily with Zen de Beer but with one of the members but I will say that this is how I would accept it.

MR WILLS: Mr Botha gave information to us that the investigation was a scam, would you agree with that?

J A STEYN: Yes, in this sense, Chairperson, that these investigators did not know that in all probability prosecutions would not happen.

MR WILLS: But surely, sorry had you not finished?

J A STEYN: Please continue.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry if I interrupted you.  Surely at least one of the purposes of the investigation was to get a lot of information?  To get information, I mean that would have helped the Government or the National Party or the police, regardless of whether or not prosecutions occurred.

J A STEYN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So surely it would have been in your interests to support the investigation to the greatest extent possible?

J A STEYN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And I put it to you that it would have been the correct procedure to have made it known to the person who was in charge of that investigation that you had somebody with information that he could speak to.

J A STEYN: No, Chairperson, that is not necessarily the case.  The information that Botha had in his possession that he had gotten hold of from Ndaba and from Shabalala, could be conveyed by him in different ways.

MR WILLS: Although it could be conveyed, we all know that, that you can take hearsay evidence to anybody you like, what I'm saying is that if you had treated this investigation seriously, as per your orders, it wasn't a small investigation, it was orders from Pretoria that a National Investigation get under way, that you should have made that person, that witness available to that team.

J A STEYN: No Chairperson, I do not agree, because I will say again, Botha could convey all the information that he had in his possession, while these people had been in our possession and we did not want people to know about this.

MR WILLS: Isn't it true, Mr Steyn, that again you actively hid these two individuals, Shabalala and Ndaba from this investigation team?  That's the reason you didn't tell Steyn of the existence of Shabalala and Ndaba?  You actively hid that from their attention?  De Beer - you didn't tell de Beer about the fact that you were holding these two people, because you wanted to hide it from de Beer that you had these two people.

J A STEYN: We did not want them to know this Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well then you must have been acting contrary at least to the spirit of the instruction that was given, because you were hiding vital information from the investigation that had been set up.

J A STEYN: Chairperson, I have already said that all information that Botha could get hold of, he should have conveyed this to the investigation team without saying where he had gotten the information from.  It is not necessary, many investigations worked like this and also worked like this in the past.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely it is of extreme importance where the information has come from?  If it's some little foot soldier who's heard gossip somewhere and he's passing it on or if it is a senior ANC official who's giving the information.

J A STEYN: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is important who it comes from?

J A STEYN: Yes, Mr Botha could have said that this is information which he had in his possession, good information, reliable information and this would have been enough for any investigation team.

CHAIRPERSON: So they must accept?  Botha says it's reliable so that's enough for them, they were a National Investigation Unit.

J A STEYN: That's correct, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just interpose here?  Gen Steyn, what is not clear to me is that in this time where there was such a double situation, weren't there questions about what had happened to Ndaba and Shabalala?

J A STEYN: Are you referring to from inside?

ADV BOSMAN: They were two very important people.

J A STEYN: Yes, I do remember, and if I remember correctly there were questions from the ANC side at a later stage and naturally the ANC, after these people had not met the appointments after a few days, the ANC realised that something was wrong and that there'd been a security breach.

ADV BOSMAN: Did this not worry you?

J A STEYN: It was a problem for us, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Would one then not expect the investigator, Mr de Beer, had been taken into your confidence?

J A STEYN: Chairperson, the time had already gone by, a few days had gone by and it was difficult for us, we did not know where we were going to at that stage with these people and we did not inform de Beer, or I did not inform de Beer.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Mr Steyn, if I'd been in your position then, I would have at least felt a little bit guilty that I wasn't revealing this information, I was hiding something from my superiors.  Did you feel that?

J A STEYN: Yes, it was not correct to withhold it from them but I did.

MR WILLS: Now is it not so that on the 9th of July, that's the Monday morning, that C R Swart police station had already been approached by lawyers representing the ANC asking about the disappearance of their two comrades?

J A STEYN: I cannot remember that date.  I know there was inquiries made, but I cannot remember.

MR WILLS: Quite soon after their disappearance?

J A STEYN: In all honesty, the best that I can do and I'm honest if I say that I cannot remember, I know that inquiries had been made but I cannot remember exactly.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that there was a story run in the newspaper called the Weekly Mail, I think on that Friday the 13th, about the disappearance, but my instructions are unclear, it might have been that 13th or the next week.

J A STEYN: I can recall that there had been a newspaper article.

MR WILLS: And is it not also so that members of your investigation team, de Beer's team, were actively looking for Mbuso and Shabalala?

J A STEYN: That's correct, Chairperson.  They would have investigated the whole matter, not only these two.

MR WILLS: And they were looking for those people and you and Botha just went along with their story, saying that you didn't know where they were either.

J A STEYN: That's correct, we did not reveal this information.

MR WILLS: And you obviously felt guilty about that?

J A STEYN: Yes, in the sense that we did not tell them.

MR WILLS: You were pulling the wool over the eyes of your own people.

J A STEYN: No, we did not tell them.