Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR SHEZI: I'm not talking about being on duty 24 hours or being - for Mr de Kock to be present everywhere, I'm talking about the initial briefing, very important briefing to which the C Vlakplaas unit was summoned to come here in Durban.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: And as the commander of that unit he was not there.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: It was not necessary for him to be there, Mr Chairman, because there were various groups as I've already said, one could have worked in Lamontville or somewhere else, I don't know all the names, but we can't expect Mr de Kock to divide himself into two or three parts so that he could be at every information session.  We worked in various groups, that is how we operated.

MR SHEZI: So the decision to go to Chesterville in particular, how did it come about?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I've already testified, we went to the army base or the police station and on the map they indicated Chesterville as a flashpoint.  That's why we went there, for no other reason.  If they said Lamontville or wherever, we would have gone there.  Chesterville was the place indicated then, there was no specific reason why we started there.  It was a flashpoint.

MR SHEZI: The security policemen that were killed in Durban, do you know in which part of Durban were they killed?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: Yet the purpose - okay, I'm not going to ask that anymore.  You have applied only for being in possession of an AK47 and not the conspiracy to murder.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: Just tell this Commission, this being in possession of an AK, at what stage did you possess it and for how long, how did you come in contact with it, where and when?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: The AK47 was in the vehicle we were travelling with.

MR SHEZI: You knew there was an AK47 in the vehicle?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, not specifically when we came down from Vlakplaas.

MR SHEZI: At what stage did you know that there was an AK47 involved in this whole episode?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: When Willie handed the AK47 to Mr Radebe.

MR SHEZI: You did not touch the AK47 or take it to somebody and give it to somebody?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: So what exactly are you applying for in connection with this AK47?  You are not aware it was in the vehicle when you drove from Pretoria to Durban, you were are not aware at any stage, you were only became aware of it when Willie Nortje touched it and gave it to somebody?  You did not even touch the weapon, why apply for amnesty for it?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: It was not necessary for me to touch the weapon, it was in the vehicle in which we were travelling and people were shot with this weapon.

MR SHEZI: Before the shooting ...(indistinct) you said you did not know that there was a weapon in the vehicle, isn't it, at any point in time?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman, not as far as I can recollect.

MR SHEZI: So you are applying for being in possession of something that you did not know that you were ever in possession of, is that what you are telling this Commission?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Afterwards I knew that there was a weapon in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: If Nortje had not taken the weapon from the boot you would not have known there was a weapon in the vehicle.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Then I wouldn't have known it.

CHAIRPERSON: Up till today you would not have known?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Up till today.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shezi?

MR SHEZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	The group that went, Sgt Radebe and the others, were you present at any point in time when they were given instructions to go to Chesterville?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Please repeat the question.

MR SHEZI: Okay, I'll repeat that.  When the group which went to Chesterville with Sgt Radebe, as you said you first waited by the graveyard and then later by the bridge, what instructions were given to that group when that group went to Chesterville?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: At the graveyard they were instructed to infiltrate, go into Chesterville.  I think they obtained an address from the police station or there where they obtained the information, they went to that address, they returned and said they met people there but the people do not trust them.

MR SHEZI: The purpose of infiltration, what was it for, was it going to infiltrate them and then what happened thereafter?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: They infiltrate and they try to obtain names and addresses of activists and those types of things. - that type of information.

MR SHEZI: For what purpose or purposes?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: They had to trace these people to find out who killed the security policemen.

MR SHEZI: Now the whole infiltration was merely to find out who these people were and then hopefully in the process the information about the killing of the policemen was going to come out.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: Did you hope that this information was going to come out in Chesterville in particular?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: Not in Lamontville, not anywhere else?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: In Lamontville, if we could information there it would have been fine, but at that stage we were not in Lamontville we were in Chesterville.

MR SHEZI: These details about the infiltration which you've just outlined, were those given to the group that ...(indistinct) such an endeavour and if so, who gave those instructions and where were you at that time?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Willie Nortje gave the instructions.

MR SHEZI: And the larger part of my question was, where were you at that time when Willie Nortje gave those instructions?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I was with Nortje in the vehicle.

MR SHEZI: And there was no instruction, or there were no instructions for any arrest during the process or during the operation of the group that went to Chesterville?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Mr Radebe is a policeman, he had been working for Vlakplaas for a long time, it was not necessary to give him instructions.  If there was a suspect it was not necessary to tell him to arrest somebody, he knew what to do.

MR SHEZI: I didn't ask you about Sgt Radebe's ranks or knowledge or capabilities, I am saying only instructions which were given - you said earlier on they were given instructions to go and find information, find the names of the people and hopefully the information about the killers of the Security Branch policemen was going to come out, and I am saying to you, the instruction to arrest in particular, was that given or not?  Let's forget about Sgt Radebe's capabilities and his rank and everything.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No instructions were given to arrest, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: And then you are saying, within that short space of time whatever that amount of time would have been of the infiltration, it was going to be able for somebody to find out who those people were, whether they were involved in the killing of the Security Branch policemen and hopefully there would be proof in that regard, is that what you are saying?