Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

MR NAUDE: Wasn't your evidence that he only came on the scene at a much later stage, when he started opening his business?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, no, that is not so.

MR NAUDE: But nobody was ever caught for arson and brought to Court?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.

MR NAUDE: You testified about the poor relationship between you and Mr Hatting, it is at this stage very poor.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I never said that, I was asked a ...(intervention)

MR NAUDE: I'm asking you.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I think I was asked a question, I can't remember what the question was, to say poor or excellent, I selected poor.

MR NAUDE: The question was put to you
"Please describe the relationship between you and Mr Hatting."

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, I said: "poor".

MR NAUDE: There's no love lost between the two of you?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, shouldn't, no.

MR NAUDE: You in fact lost a lot of money through Mr Hatting's son.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Say that again.

MR NAUDE: You in fact lost a lot of money when a business of Mr Hatting, Mr Hatting's son Anton, was liquidated.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, I lost money, yes.  That was recent.

MR NAUDE: There is also a civil action pending between you and Mr Hatting.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Civil action?

MR NAUDE: Yes.  My instructions are that at this stage you are being summonsed by Mr Hatting for money that you owe him.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: At this stage?

MR NAUDE: Yes.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I'm not aware of that.  Do you have any idea how much money?

MR NAUDE: R557,35.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I'm being summonsed for R500,00?

MR NAUDE: In fact.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Oh.

MR NAUDE: You might not have at this stage received the summons.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well that's a lot of money.

MR NAUDE: I want to put it to you that my instructions are further that you visited Mr Hatting on the farm and then asked him to become joint partners in the hardware business, and your exact words were you want to use the knowledge of Mr Hatting as being a chartered accountant and one of the financial directors of Rembrandt.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.

MR NAUDE: And that you are only a trader.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, that is not so.

MR NAUDE: If you look at the probabilities it is more probable that you being just a trader, that you would go to Mr Hatting and ask him for a joint venture.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That's your opinion.

MR NAUDE: I want to put it to you that that is in fact my instructions.  Can you say in that period of round about three months that you made use of the security vehicle, the armed vehicle of the Security Forces, on how many occasions did Mr Hatting visit Sterkspruit?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I think I made it clear that during the time of the security, Mr Hatting does not run spores(?) in Sterkspruit so he doesn't go to work at 8 o'clock in the morning and leave at 5 o'clock.

MR NAUDE: So you can't say on how many occasions he visited Sterkspruit?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, I've got no knowledge whatsoever.

MR NAUDE: And if he did in fact join the convoy.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I think I was quite clear in my answer to that, I had no knowledge of whether he joined the convoy.  And I've also specified that Mr Hatting does not go so work in Sterkspruit at 8 o'clock every morning and leave at five, he visits his business, as my observation has been from time to time.

MR NAUDE: Tell me, can you elaborate on the fact that you say you still today use the services of the security firm?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, we've to our own security.

MR NAUDE: Do you still use them when you go to and fro?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.

MR NAUDE: Your perception or opinion that the attacks were not politically motivated but of a business concern, there's no concrete evidence for that, it's only a perception by you?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, that's right.

MR NAUDE: If you say no outsiders were attacked, are you wrong or did you make a mistake or didn't you know about the person from Telkom that was attacked, that had no business?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: To my knowledge outside business people were not attacked.  I think the incident of the Telkom person was at the same time that Mrs Brummer was killed and Mr Tsemane and he came upon the scene at the time of that ambush, as my knowledge goes.  So my perception of that was he was involved in the ambush by pure coincidence.

MR NAUDE: And also the - that was also the case with the guy doing the electrical work?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: The what?

MR NAUDE: The electrical work, the electrician.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Was this not the electrician you're talking about?

MR NAUDE: No, this was not, the one was from Telkom and the other one was an electrician.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Oh, I don't know about an election, I'm sorry.

MR NAUDE: There was an electrician that had no business in Sterkspruit as such.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

MR NAUDE: And he was attacked.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, no, I believe you.

MR NAUDE: Mr Chairperson, if you'd just allow me a minute.
	Do you know of any interest that Mr Hatting had in a soccer team?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, no, I'm not aware of that.

MR NAUDE: Because I want to put to you that he never had any relationship or any interest with any soccer team.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Did I say something of that nature?

MR NAUDE: No, no, I'm only asking you.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the point of putting something that has not been mentioned?  You say: "Are you aware of it, because there never was such a thing".  I'm afraid I don't understand the point of the question.

MR NAUDE: Mr Chairperson with all due respect, there was, in the evidence of Mrs Tsemane, it was suggested that the people that used the APLA cadres did in fact have interest in soccer teams.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I was not aware of any - I'm still not aware that Mr Hatting has interests in any soccer   team.

MR NAUDE: Are you aware of the fact that at one stage, Mr Swartbooi, the bank manager that is now deceased, had to escort Mr Hatting out of the Sterkspruit area when there was rumours that business people, or that whites were being attacked, that white people were attacked?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Business people, no I was not aware not aware of that, no.

MR NAUDE: You can't deny that?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Pardon?

MR NAUDE: You can't deny that it in fact happened?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, none whatsoever.

MR NAUDE: Are you busy changing one of your buildings at this stage to house a butchery in?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, we've done that already.

MR NAUDE: And that will be in direct competition with Mr Hatting's business, or his butchery?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: My information is that Mr Hatting closed his butchery, as far as I know.  I know there was an auction sale to do with something about a butchery at some stage.

MR NAUDE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NAUDE

ADV PRIOR: I've no re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  May Mr Mather be excused, he has travelled from Lady Grey this morning?

MR NAUDE: I've got no objection, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mather, thank you for having taken the trouble to come here as you did early this morning to assist us.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV PRIOR: I haven't broached this question with my learned friend, Mr Naude, does he intend calling Mr Hatting?  This would possibly be a convenient stage to interpose, at this stage, Mr Hatting's evidence if he intends calling him.  If not then I'm going to suggest that Ms Tsemane be recalled because her evidence is ...(intervention)

MR NAUDE: I'm not intending calling Mr Hatting, Mr Chairperson.