Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I think as far as, if the question is going, obviously I was in touch with Colonel Mzwaiba and I actually phoned him in the morning that everything has been done.  But there was never any official, definitely not, thanking, either in sort of a reward, which I am just mentioning here, not that we expected something, it is just sort of to make it quite clear, that for the whole operation, nobody received anything.  Nor was there any thanking, official thanking, to anybody involved in the whole operation.

MR MAZAHAM: At no stage in regard to this entire incident and in regard to your involvement with Mr Mbotoli, did you receive any financial remuneration or any form of remuneration?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Not at all.  If I may sort of go beyond the 12th of April 1991, I had serious repercussions afterwards.  I think Mr Mbotoli was held at Port St Johns for a period of about six months, I am not hundred percent sure of the period and then Gen Holomisa held a press conference and introduced Mr Mbotoli officially now, as having been abducted into the Transkei and the military at that stage, handed over Mr Mbotoli, or had to hand over Mr Mbotoli to the Police as the Police was preparing a treason trial with altogether I think, 20 accused.   Mr Mbotoli was part of those accused on the treason trial.  Consequently Mr Mbotoli also had access from his lawyers and from, I presume from the South African Embassy and implicated me in the abduction and one day, it was about six months after the actual abduction, I get a phone call that about 12 people I presumed Security Police, were at my house, looking for me and looking for a bar in the house, which the house didn't have and told my wife that it is in connection with the abduction/kidnapping of Mr Mbotoli.  I at that, it was about one o'clock in the afternoon, at that time, my wife managed to phone me and warned me that the Police was there to arrest me in that connection.  I consequently immediately phoned Colonel Mzwaiba in the Transkei and I told him that the Police is now about to arrest me, and I was told to pack up and come to the Transkei straight away and should get in touch with the Military Attache at the Embassy for assistance, which I did.  At that time, the Military Attache at the Embassy told me that he was going the next morning to the Transkei to take up his position as Minister of Police and if I could sort of hang around in Johannesburg for another, call it 12 hours, because then we could drive down to the Transkei in convoy, which I did, and the next morning we left Johannesburg at about seven o'clock and I moved to the Transkei where I lived for I think two to three years, in the Transkei in Umtata, at a house provided by the Transkei government.  Later I spent about half a year in Uganda.  That is in short the situation.

MR MAZAHAM: In so far as the criminal charge was concerned, when you were approached by the Investigating Officer, Hailiger, what exactly was your attitude at the time you were requested to make a statement?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: At that time, my attitude with I think Major Hailiger from the South African Police was that I denied everything, I refused to make a statement and I pointed out to Major Hailiger that if what he accuses me, is true, then obviously it would fall under the amnesty conditions, under the just being formed Truth and Reconciliation Commission and obviously I would make an application for amnesty as soon as it is possible.

MR MAZAHAM: Did you actually decline to make a statement at that stage?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I declined to make a statement.

MR MAZAHAM: And at that point, obviously the provisions of full disclosure that would relate to an application for amnesty, were not yet applicable?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: At that stage you could not make applications for amnesty, otherwise I would have made it already and I think as soon as the legal framework for applications was in place, I did make my application.  I think I did not wait much longer, the moment it was possible to make an application, I submitted my application.

MR MAZAHAM: Were you aware at the time that you made your application to this Commission, that any considerations or any allegations of possible financial gain, or business motivated reasons, were applicable or possibly applicable?  I ask this question in the light of the recommendation or the statement by the Office of the Attorney General at the time, that a recommendation was made for a prosecution as opposed to possibly considering amnesty because there was possible financial gain, I am sorry sir, if I might just actually refer to that Annexure in the Bundle.  It is on page 10, from the Office of the Attorney General, Witwatersrand ... (tape ends) ... states that there is no evidence of a political motive for Moringer's actions, it would appear that the complainant and the accused were business acquaintances.  There are indications that Moringer's motive may have been economic, rather than political.  Moringer himself chose to remain silent on this aspect.  Mr Moringer, if we could please, because this is fundamental to this application, if we could qualify very carefully, at the time that we made any disclosures, what you believed to be your relationship with the victim?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: At the time and before, other than I think 1985 or 1986, when I tried to get involved in the business in the Transkei, I had no business relationship with Mr Mbotoli or with the Transkei government or any business interest in the Transkei at all.

MR MAZAHAM: Mr Chairperson, if I might just ask for clarification on one aspect that I haven't been able to determine from Mr Mapoma, and that is see A17, the reference in this Annexure on page 10, I am not quite sure what A17 is, because I have tried to determine what has led the Attorney General to conclude that there was economic rather than political involvement or alternatively where we chose to remain silent.  I don't find that A17.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would seem Mr Mazaham, that it is probably a reference to a page number in a Police docket, because if you  have a look at page 11, that is A20, that is a statement that looks like it comes out of a Police docket, and there is A17 on page 16.  I don't know if it is the same one.  That is what I ...

MR MAZAHAM: Because I think Mr Chairperson, on that aspect, the applicant has explained that at the time he was approached by the Police, in fact I was present and I advised him to make no statement in regard to the criminal charge.  I would hate the inference to be drawn as a result of that, that he has chosen to remain silent or has not fully disclosed.  I think that is where the misconception in the first instance, has crept in.  I think you would appreciate with all due respect, at that very early stage when I wasn't even aware of the circumstances, my advice was as it still would be, don't make any statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is certainly not startling advice, it is the usual sort of advice that a lawyer gives his client.  I would imagine and I am sure it is correct, Mr Mazaham, that the A17 referred to in page 10 here, is in fact the document which appears on 16, which is numbered A17, because that is Mr Moringer's statement which says that you were present and it says I decline to make a statement, and they say here Moringer himself chose to remain silent on the aspect, see A17, so there it is referring to that.