Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very, very much. We are very deeply grateful. I will   ask my colleague here, Bongani Finca to put a few questions to you.
REV.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you your Grace. The Chairperson has asked me to be very   brief and I wanted to do two things. The one is to pay tribute to you for the   submission you have made before the commission, and the respect that you have   shown the commission by preparing yourself so extensively. This shows that you   are recognising the dignity of the Commission itself. 
Secondly I wanted to do my own personal confession before you and ask you to   forgive me. But I won't do that. I was student in 1969 at ...[inaudible] and   I used to pass by bus to Sbonelo and what you are saying about ridiculing and   laughing - all the insults about what we used to see as we passed through Phakamile,   as a boy I was part of that. I was a victim myself of my own upbringing and   somehow I would like to say so, if you could forgive me.
Two questions I want to raise with you. We are trying here to establish a picture   of what religious communities did or failed to do in the whole struggle with   apartheid. In your own submission, I would like to isolate perhaps you may have   passed through it quickly for you to isolate those things. When you look back,   you become proud of a contribution in the struggle against apartheid. 
Sorry, and just so that I don't come back to you, and also very briefly just   to outline without going into detail, those things that you are sorry about.   Not generally, but about the struggle waged by this country to eliminate itself   from apartheid. Secondly I would like you to comment on the treatment that Ibandla   lama Nazaretha gives to women. You are taking the podium soon after the very   eloquent submission of how religious communities have really assaulted the dignity   of women. How do you see yourselves in that on that question?
REV.

M P MPANZA: First of all, our congregation is the only congregation that   is actually boasting, it is the very first congregation that when the missionaries   came from overseas, trying to change and trying to force the people to abandon   their culture and tradition, but we resisted. Instead, we continued to worship   God using our own culture and tradition.
In other words, all that is happening right now that is actually opening the   eyes of the people to worship God, it's something new but the church that had   that concept long ago, it's there. It's our congregation. Right now, it's what   the people have realised that it's what they were supposed to do, because Shembe   was telling the truth that people are supposed to worship God in their own way.   Our congregation is boasting, because when Shembe came he taught the people   to respectit is not very easy to see a congregation who is so respecting,   like our congregation, irrespective of whether they are men, women, girls or   boys. It was one of Shembe's teachings, therefore we are proud to say that Shembe   taught us not to drink liquor, we must not smoke cigarettes, we must not use   medicine. I remember when I was still very young, when the boys were smoking,   they thought that I was stupid because I was not doing what they were doing,   I was not drinking. But right now, Shembe's teachings against smoking, it's   only now that the people have realised that it's a problem it's very difficult   for them to stop smoking and drinking. Shembe realised long ago that it's very   wrong to drink liquor, but it's only now that people have realised that it is   wrong. We don't have a problem with alcohol. We don't have people who are smoking,   e don't have people who are addicted to drugs, but it is what you will find   among our congregation. You know, even if a person is going to our church, he   knows very well that smoking and drinking is wrong. 
REV.

BONGANI FINCA: Could we then begin to focus on the problem areas?
REV.

M P MPANZA: There is a lot of things that we regret about, especially   when our leaders died. Sometimes we didn't have time to tackle the problems   in time. If our leader died, we didn't have provision on how to appoint a new   leader, so we would find ourselves in problems, because we would be taken to   court and a lot of money would be wasted, because we didn't take care in our   constitution, we didn't make provision of electing or appointing new leaders,   therefore we would experience conflict. So I can say it is where we actually   lacked the necessary procedures.
REV.

BONGANI FINCA: The last thing about the Ekuphakameni congregation, what is it   that they do to show that they respect women?
REV.

P M MPANZA: We don't say anything about rights, we just talk about respect.   Respect is something I have already said that we respect each other, we respect   the young, we respect the elderly people. We are people who have respect. We   say nothing about respecting other people's rights. We know that if a person   is assigned to do something, each and every body has got his or her own assignment,   but whatever they do there is always respect in it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
REV.

BONGANI FINCA: I would like to thank you for all you have said about your congregation.   Most of it is true. A person who normally visits your church at the end will   have a question of what happened to the other people. I don't know how can we   spread this spirit of your congregation in our community, in our society, more   especially the black community? There is something that I would like to ask.   This leadership of yours, it looks like it is something that is associated with   the kingdom, the culture of the kingdom. Because I can see from Isiah, Galile   and their children that there's a time whereby God would come out and point   out the leader who is not coming from that family. I wish to say that the leadership   of Ekuphakameni has got nothing to do with the royals. I think it's actually   following the guidelines from the bible. What is more important here is thatbefore   that I want to say that a person who is a leader in the royal family is a person   who is a prince. In Ekuphakameni, there has never been any person like that   who would become a leader. Galile was not a prince, it's only ...[inaudible]   who was a prince. When Galile died, it's only his brother who became a leader.   After his brother , it was their son. If I'm saying it's following the guidelines   from the bible it means, even from Israel, Jacob was appointed and after that   it happened like that. All their children became the priest. If God has chosen   that anyone who is a brother or son to that family becomes a leader, that doesn't   necessarily mean that it's the first thing that happened in Ekuphakameni. It's   not our culture or tradition that's been used there as a procedure. I think   that it's something that came from heaven.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Mpanza. You have given us your story so   clearly therefore we are able to get the details of your teaching. Thank you   very much. The next witness will be Dr Mokwebo of Die Belydende Kring. And I   want to point out that he has been very gracious in agreeing to come in at the   end, as he has done.

DR MOKWEBO: Chairperson, together with me is the Executive of the Belydende   Kring. On my immediate left is our chairperson, Dr Henry Thyse, and next to   him is our Vice-Chairperson, Mrs Julia Tladi and also a member of our movement,   Dominee Kwaho, who is also a member of this delegation this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Are they all going to testify?

DR MOKWEBO: No, I'm going to be the one who makes the submission, but they   can all speak in answering questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then you are all going to testify. Will you please stand   and Bongani Finca will administer the oath or affirmation.
ADMINISTERS OATH.