Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-08

UNKNOWN: I will be brief, I do not know what happened, it is my child who came to tell me whilst I was in my brother's house.  This child came to tell me that Sophie had been shot.  When I went to try and find out what happened, the car that Sophie was in, had already left.
 My brother then said we should go to the police station because apparently the car had - was driven off to the police station.  As we were walking towards the police station, we were accosted by investigators.  They said that it is me that they wanted, they said that I am the one who had killed Bhokwe - these investigators assaulted, threw me into their car, after that truly I do not know what was going on.
 These policeman were trying cover up their filth, it is Silingo who had killed this - who had killed this man.  Because they were covering up their filth, they were accusing me.  They are filthy people these gemorse - I don't know anything about anything, I worked in Cape Town, I don't  know anything, the nonsense that went on, the petty stuff I had just arrived, I was from Cape Town, they ruined my life because I was going to marry a woman. But I had to part from here, because of them - these bastards.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] while the witness speaks so that we can hear him.

UNKNOWN: I am angry, I am not working - I have been tortured by police, I suffer, I  am of ill health, I am unemployed, I suffer, my kidneys are not all right.

MS SEROKE: We understand - we understand.

UNKNOWN: These people - the perpetrators they are alive, what are you doing about them - my life is ruined, what are you doing about them?  They were not even jailed, I could not even go to my sister's funeral, I was in detention.
They were trying to cover up their filth - together with their Magistrate and their Judge, I was used as escape  route -  to cover up their filth.  They wanted to  save the man who had shot my sister.
Who is guilty - who is guilty.  Who is guilty - who is guilty.  She was picked up from the streets, who is guilty - even if she had verbally offended someone - no-one had the right to shoot her, that is nonsense.  I do not want to say anymore, I've had it.

MS SEROKE: Mr Nelson we understand your situation.

UNKNOWN: I am in pain, this police that tortured me, they are working, I am unemployed, these people walk pass me everyday, the others are in De Aar - they still under employment, I cannot work for myself because of them.  I don't gain anything from that - my children they all over the streets, they are criminals, they do not go to school.

MS SEROKE: We understand your pain,  but we ask that you try to control yourself.  So that even when we ask our investigation team to find - to find out what happened, we as the Truth Commission would like to reach a place where there can be peace and forgiveness.
 I want to ask this [indistinct] that was a policeman, why do you think he shot Sophie?

UNKNOWN: I do not know - I do not - I did not get a chance to find out.  I was in Cape Town,  apparently there was conflict between the comrades and the informers.  Apparently before I came back from Cape Town, such conflict arose, I had just come back from work, I do not know what happened.
 I don't know whether that is the reason why she was shot, because when we tried to discuss this whilst in detention, we still could not reach any conclusive - I cannot solve it, I did - I do not know why she was shot.

MS SEROKE: This is one of the things that we must find out, we want the truth so that there can be peace.  That is all I am going to say for now, I going to hand over to the Chairperson.

ADV POTGIETER: Nelson ek wil net hoor wat  - wat het gebeur met jou was jy ...
 I want to know what actually happened to you, you were charged.  And you were found guilty, what were you found guilty of?

UNKNOWN: They said I had killed [indistinct] the father of the man who had killed my sister, I  was guilty of murder and attempted murder - 35 years in jail, I just got out because we got indemnity.  I would still be in prison all because of lies.

ADV POTGIETER: But were you charged alone - were you the only person in that case?

UNKNOWN: No sir it was three of us - I was accused no 1, there was accused no 2 and 3.  There were a whole lot of others that were charged of public violence, the filth that the police said is that we attacked Tshemese's house, that is why they had to shoot - that is all lies.  My sister was shot before the comrades took action.
 All we want is the truth, before the comrades took action my sister was already dead.

ADV POTGIETER: Was - I just want to get the names right, was it Jackson Tshemese or Geelboy that was killed?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Is dit different, two different persons - who was -who was killed, what was the persons name that was killed?

UNKNOWN: It is Bhokwe Tshemese he is the father of the man who killed my sister.

ADV POTGIETER: And he was the one that was killed afterwards?

UNKNOWN: Yes sir - after my sister had died.

ADV POTGIETER: And it was because - for his killing that they sentenced you.

UNKNOWN: Yes that's right.  I was accused of having murdered him.

ADV POTGIETER: And you were the only person that was convicted and sentenced for that murder of Bhokwe Tshemese.

UNKNOWN: No sir as I said there were three of us, the others got suspended sentences.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] and you were released, you were sentenced when - when were you sentenced.
 Wanneer - wanneer is u gestraf?

UNKNOWN: A year - I stayed in detention for a year, then the following year in November or October I got sentenced.

ADV POTGIETER: So they arrested you in December of 1985 and you stayed in prison until you were sentenced - you never got bail.

UNKNOWN: I did not get bail, they refused, our advocates tried to get bail for us.  They even requested if I could go to my sister's funeral, they refused.  They said that I am dangerous - they are the one's who are dangerous not me.
 It is the police, the law - they are dangerous, I am not dangerous.  But they are covering up their own filth.

ADV POTGIETER: But when were you released eventually in which year were you released?

UNKNOWN: In 1991 sir I can't remember exactly what month but it was in 1991.

ADV POTGIETER: When you were arrested you - I assumed that you were on holiday, you were working in Cape Town and you were back home on holiday the work was closed over the festive period.

UNKNOWN: That's right - it was the 21st of December, I had come home for the holidays.

ADV POTGIETER: And [indistinct] and you never got your job back, you obviously lost your job.

UNKNOWN: I did not work again, to this day I do not work.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] in Phillipstown at the moment.

UNKNOWN: No I stay in de Aar.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] and how do you survive?

UNKNOWN: I try - what can I do, I cannot work, now and again I get temporally jobs, my kidneys are troubling me.

ADV POTGIETER: If I may ask you - how old are you now - what is your age?

UNKNOWN: I am forty five years of age.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] can I - okay thank you I am finished with Mr Jantjie.

MS SEROKE: Was your house stoned ma'am in October that year?

UNKNOWN: My house as stoned.

MS SEROKE: In the statements that we have from our researchers, I will try to read for you maybe then it can be clearer why this was done.  Apparently  there was conflict amongst the people in the village.  Sophie then accused the Tshemese family of having participated in stoning her house.
 The police version states that [indistinct] fired shots at Sophie, after the house was stoned.

UNKNOWN: There is none such - this is all lies.  When this conflict took place, Sophie was in Johannesburg.

MS SEROKE: They said that it is after she had come back from Johannesburg that she confronted them.

UNKNOWN: There is none such, they just wrote lies - they are just running away from the  truth.