Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MR RAMALIGELA: They were normally not put in the same place, but they were not put in a group.  One should be arrested and placed in Guyani and the other one placed in Vuyani and in Sibasa, and sometimes we used to take them and come and interrogate them in our office.

MR MEYER: Was there a specific reason why they were moved around?

MR RAMALIGELA: The idea of putting them to different places was to make sure that when we ask another person the other person mustn't relate the same story to make that we didn't get the truth.  We tried to find information from a person at Chitali and find information from another person in Vuyani, but look into them they were the same to confirm that they are telling the truth.

MR MEYER: With regard to - you have now spoken about the fact that the detainees were held in different centres.  But with regard to each individual detainee, was such a person also kept in one place since the day of his arrest or was he also moved from one place to another?

MR RAMALIGELA: We don't let the person to stay in one place the same time, but we used to take him to other places with the idea that where he is be removed from other place might assist him in his mind to tell the truth because he is being transferred now and again.

MR MEYER: So are you saying that it was also with the idea of, let's call it to disrupt this detainee also with the idea of getting him to co-operate?

MR RAMALIGELA: In looking into that it was a matter of assaulting or torturing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are basically saying it was some kind of emotional torture, just moving him around and getting him to be interrogated by different people, is not so?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, it's true.

MR MEYER: Director you were on the point of moving on to the next detainee who was assaulted by you.  Which one of them are you going to testify about?

MR RAMALIGELA: It's 15.3, Mdangani Petrus Poswana.

MR MEYER: In your statement you mentioned that he was assaulted in a similar fashion as Posiwa.  Is that correct?

MR RAMALIGELA: It's true.  He was arrested by myself and then I assault and detained him, and I have tortured him just like  Mr Posiwa.

MR MEYER: Did you use the same methods exactly as you used with Mr Posiwa?  Did you maybe not use some of the methods that you used on Mr Posiwa, or did you add anything that you hadn't done to Mr Posiwa, or was it generally the same treatment?

MR RAMALIGELA: In Mr Posiwa, it was different because of time, but the ways I've used were the same.  With Mr Poswana, time was longer because he was refusing that he didn't do anything.  Then we tortured him now and again, beating him thoroughly.

MR MEYER: And just to make it complete that you also used the shock treatment on him and the hood and the broom-stick methods?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, broom-stick was also used.

MR MEYER: Did you use electric shock treatment on him.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Did you use the method where you put the hood over his head and where you put water over him?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: With regard to Reverend or Dean Farisani, what methods of interrogation did you use as far as he is concerned?

MR RAMALIGELA: In Mr Farisani, we started by, we started as Masisi.  We arrested him.  I went there with Mr Managa, and we interrogated him and he said he knows nothing.  We started to hit him by fist.  Then in the office where we were interrogating him, there was a hood and then I push him in his chest and then he got knocked with the wall and then I hit him at the back.  From there we kept on beating him.  He fell down, we kicked him and we found that it's better to take him and then we ask, we'll take him next to us so that we can interrogate him, and then we take him to my office.
	On our arrival, the next day, we call him to interrogate him.  Dean refused that of course he knew nothing, but of course I saw him in Louis Trichardt and then we exchanged words there.  As we continue there, I realised that it's better to intimidate him, because there was a boiling kettle, we pour water and then it was red boiling and then I said I want to pour water through is anus.  And then he said, "No don't do that, I will tell you the truth."  Then he continued to deny, and then I shocked him with electricity, winding all over his body.  But where I can ask something I'm now telling the honest truth.  There is no incident in which we took electricity shock to the private parts. 
	Torturing of Dean was different from the others because we intimidate him by the boiling kettle and hitting him by the stick.  The rest which I mentioned to Posiwa and Poswana also happened to Dean.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you proceed Mr Meyer, just to get back with Mr Poswana you said with Mr Posiwa there were just the three of you present when he was tortured.  With Mr Poswana who was present besides yourself if anybody.  With Mr Poswana and once you have told that, then if you could say who was present with the Dean Farisani when he was tortured.

MR RAMALIGELA: I was with Mr Managa and Mr Nesamari.  CHAIRPERSON:   Was that with Mr Poswana when you were torturing?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, I was still with those two men I have mentioned, Mr Managa and Mr Nesamari.

CHAIRPERSON: And with the Dean Farisani?

MR RAMALIGELA: They were present.  Apart from at Masisi, Mr Nesamari was not there.

MR MEYER: Just to take you back, sorry to interrupt your thought, you said with regard to Mr Posiwa the questioning or you questioned him for about two days.  Is that correct?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, with regard to Mr Posiwa it took about two days, with regard to Posiwa it was a similar period of time because there was no agreement.

MR MEYER: Are you referring to Poswana that was also two days.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, the same happened to Posiwa and Poswana, it was two days each.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Didn't you say in your evidence before that you tortured Poswana much longer because you couldn't extract the information.

MR RAMALIGELA: What I said that with regard to Mr Poswana there was a similar time because there was no, not much information that was extracted.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Meaning therefor that you tortured him for longer than two days?  I mean, more than two and a half hours a day.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you still tortured him within two days.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Can you tell us how long in the case of Mr Poswana, how long per day did you use, approximately if you can remember.

MR RAMALIGELA: Well I can't recall as to how long from the morning up to what time, but I can remember that it was two days and as we were torturing Mr Poswana there was quite a bit of a lengthy period of time.

MR MEYER: And with regard to Dean Farisani?  Can you tell us if you can remember how long his interrogation took?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, approximately when we were at Masisi we started around after lunch up to around four o'clock or five o'clock and then subsequently approximately three hours.  Then we went straight away in the evening to an area which is quite close to us and I think with regard to time it was a very long period of time.  I can't tell exactly how different it was with regard to, in comparison to Poswana's time.

MR MEYER: With regard to Dean Farisani, was it also over a period of more that one day that he was interrogated, or did it all happen on one day?

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to Dean Farisani it was three days because we started at Masisi, then we went straight away to our offices in Sibasa and then back to the cell and then we took him again on the following day.  It was three days with regard to Mr Farisani.

MR MEYER: Still with Dean Farisani, there was evidence led before the, a different committee, the Gross Human Rights Violations Committee, that he was made to stand on his head.  Do you remember anything of that sort?