Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is true.

MR VAN WYK: Mr Simelane, I want to put it to you, that the evidence you're tendering now is in conflict with what you testified at the inquest, and I'm going to refer you to page 2170 of the inquest record where a similar question was asked to you, and I'm going to read the question reply to you,
QUESTION:   "But you knew you had shot into a crowd of"
Page 2170 right at the bottom, the question was,
"But you knew you had shot into a crowd of people and you must have hit someone, correct?"
And the reply was, 
"Yes, that is so."
I see you're still looking for the page, it's page 2170 Mr Simelane.

UNKNOWN: I think just give an indication to him of the line.

CHAIRPERSON: At the bottom.  See, at the bottom of the page, the last paragraph.

MR VAN WYK: It is at the bottom of page 2170, the last paragraph, Mr Simelane, do you see it?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, I do see the paragraph you're referring to, it goes on to 2171 and you will get the explanation that you need if you read it in its entirety, and not read it selectively, that is how I explained it at the inquest.

MR VAN WYK: ...(inaudible) contradiction.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I've already said to you that I knew that if I shoot towards the crowd that chances are 99% that a person might get injured or killed.  This is what I have just said now when I was delivering my evidence, that is what I said at the inquest court as well.  So that is what I was explaining, and it's still written here on page 2171.

MR VAN WYK: Now, in the light of what you're saying and the shot that you fired, why did you not go and look or send anybody to find out, even if you don't go yourself, send somebody to go and have a look, is there anybody lying in the street at the entrance of the garage in Von Weillach Street that might have been struck with your shot.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Let me put this clear to you so that we stop clutching at straws, we know that at that time Inkatha and the ANC, we're not seeing eye to eye, they are arch rivals.  There was absolutely no need on my part to be bothered about any people who was at the gate, there was absolutely no need.  That is true and you know it as you're sitting there.

MR VAN WYK: Do I then understand you correctly that your attitude was that, even if you did - well you did fire the shot, even if somebody was injured or killed from that shot, you did not worry about it?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that is more or less what he's saying, isn't it?

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Does that explain your attitude you had towards Zulu people?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is not my attitude toward Zulu's, I'm a Zulu myself, my surname is Simelane.  That was the attitude I had towards people of the Inkatha Freedom Party or members, and not Zulu's in particular, get that clear.

MR VAN WYK: Did you later at that day, or at any other stage, explain or report to your superiors that you fired a shot?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, I did, I told Mr Khumalo that I shot because there was an urgent need upon my part to shoot marchers, that is IFP marchers, and not Zulu's who wanted to gain entry into the building.

MR VAN WYK: How did you know that these people were IFP supporters?

CHAIRPERSON: He'd already been told that there was going to be a march by the IFP people by the officers of the ANC, we've got that already haven't we?

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I want to know, is that the only information in respect of the march and these marchers they had, and nothing in respect of the marches at the scene, I mean, their clothing, did they flags, did they have T-shirts.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these people carrying any weapons such as knob kieries, pangas, assegais?

MR VAN WYK: That is correct, they had an assortment of weapons.  I wouldn't really say they were traditional weapons, but I would say they were war weapons, traditional war weapons.  These are the weapons that they had.

UNKNOWN: The attorney wants to know as to what made you align these people with the Inkatha Freedom Party, what is it that you saw, was it a flag that they had, or some type of apparel that they had that indicated that they are members of the IFP.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I could say that amongst the group at the gate who were singing, they were singing IFP songs, not traditional songs.

MR VAN WYK: Do you know of the closed circuit monitor that was at Lancet Hall on that day?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, I do.

MR VAN WYK: Do you know who was in charge of that monitor on that day?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: No, I don't.

MR VAN WYK: Do you know whether any recordings are being made in respect of this closed circuit monitor?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: No, I don't.

MR VAN WYK: Do I understand your evidence correct, you say that during that whole morning you were the only person in the basement who fired a shot towards the marchers, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is true.

MR VAN WYK: And do I understand you correctly, your attitude is still, you did not have an AK47 with you and you did not fire with an AK47, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is true.

MR VAN WYK: Just one point I want to clarify with you, that whole day you made no enquiries as to the fact whether anybody was injured or killed outside Lancet Hall at the garage, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is true.

MR VAN WYK: Why didn't you make enquiries, is it because you knew that somebody had been shot already?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I have already explained, I've put it clearly, I said Inkatha were our arch rivals.  As to whether there was anybody injured or killed, that was none of my concern, I was just less concerned.

MR VAN WYK: Even if you yourself fired the shot, you did not concern yourself with it, is that what you're saying?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I've already said it, I'm not going to answer that anymore.

MR VAN WYK: Is that because you hate the IFP?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: No, that is not it.  Just refer to the past, it's because we were arch rivals, at that time we didn't see eye to eye, and that is not the situation at present.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Wyk, haven't you covered this ground already?

MR VAN WYK: Partially, as you please, Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) not because they were rivals or not, but because there was an attack at the gate, is it not the real reason why he said he fired?

MR VAN WYK: I'll take it up with him, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: Do I understand you correctly, that the reason why you fired was because these people tried to force open the gate, is that why you fired the shot?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is correct.

MR VAN WYK: And then you feared for you life, is that what you're saying?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, for my life as well as the life of the workers who were inside that building, as well as leaders of the ANC, as well as the property within the building itself.

MR VAN WYK: When you fired that one shot, what happened then to the crowd?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: They dispersed and ran away to different directions.

MR VAN WYK: But Mr Chonco was shot and killed in front of that gate, he was shot with an AK47, and I'm going to put it to you that that bullet emanated from the basement where you were.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I think that's a blue lie.

MR VAN WYK: I just want to clarify one aspect, you're not applying for amnesty for shooting Mr Chonco with an AK47, that is not your application, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is true.

MR VAN WYK: I've no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.