Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, the final amnesty applicant is Mr Willem Nortje.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I'm almost ready.
	Mr Nortje, you apply for amnesty for your participation in the shooting incident of the 12th of June 1988, in these proceedings, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You have initially completed an application form by yourself, which is found on page 283 up to page 290, an extract from that application, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: What was incorporated in that original application, is it correct that the Piet Retief shooting incident is incorporated therein from a previous statement which you made to the Goldstone Commission? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: And after you obtained legal representation a supplementary application was filed, which we find on page 291 to page 311, with the extract on the Piet Retief shooting incident which you were involved in, which we find on page 306 to page 311, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: You confirm the particulars as it is embodied in the application and as it was supplemented and as will be elaborated on in your oral evidence, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: There is also an overview with regard to your training and background, which we find from page 297 to page 305 of the bundle, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: There, amongst others you mention, and I will refer to it briefly, that beforehand you were a member of Koevoet.  Would you please tell us, was Koevoet an army unit or was it a police unit?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: It was a Security Branch operation.

MR LAMEY: And Koevoet, is it correct to say that it was actually a military operational unit of the police in the then South West Africa?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: After your involvement with Koevoet you were transferred to Vlakplaas, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: I wish to refer you briefly to - Chairman, bundle 1D, the supplementary statement of Mr de Kock, which deals with the general background of Vlakplaas.  On page 26 to 27, reference is made to evidence of Gen Johan van der Merwe, who was then the Security Chief of the Security Police and where he mentions - and I read it briefly
"Chairperson, as I've already mentioned, Brig Schoon was the Head of the Vlakplaas unit.  I asked him to do the task.  I had already made use of the C1 unit and I knew personally that with certain incidents they acted across the border and they did their tasks extremely well.  And the members of C1 itself, all of them were very experienced and competent members and they had anti-insurgency training and they were capable of working in difficult circumstances and had to do the work with a clear mind and they were actually the only operational unit within the Security Forces."

MR LAMEY: An the emphasis here is where he says that you were the only operational wing of, meaning the Security Police here, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Was that also your experience?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Mr de Kock has referred in his supplementary submission that Vlakplaas was a covert establishment.  Did you experience it as such?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, I did.

MR LAMEY: You - covert, does that mean illegal operations?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That's how I understood it, yes.

MR LAMEY: Vlakplaas also did legal work, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And just to return to the incident itself.  In the supplementary statement you say the date was 1987, beginning of 1988, but now we know that it was on the 12th of June 1988, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You're now referring to the last paragraph on page 306?

MR LAMEY: Yes, Chairperson.
	So that has to be correct, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: At that stage, or before you received instruction to be part of the group that was eventually involved with the shooting incident, you were with unit C2, is that correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: C2 was also a branch of C-Section?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAMEY: How long were you with C2?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: About 10 months.

MR LAMEY: And before that you were with C1?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And during the team-building function which was held at Island Rock, you were transferred back to C1 under instruction of Brig Schoon.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, I asked him to go back to C1, under the command of Mr de Kock.

MR LAMEY: During your participation at the team-building at Island Rock, did you hear of the previous shooting incident where members of Vlakplaas were involved?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: That is correct, that was on a Friday when the members arrived there and I received bits and pieces of information, but it was clear that there was a shooting incident at Piet Retief, but I did not have the full particulars as to what happened there.

MR LAMEY: You did not know what the exact circumstances were with regard to that?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: No, I did not.

MR LAMEY: Did it ever come to your knowledge that the people were unarmed during the first shooting incident?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Only much later.

MR LAMEY: No, I want to know, during the, at Island Rock?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: No.

MR LAMEY: When later did it come to your knowledge?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: It could have been the following week or during the following week, but I cannot specifically recall that they then told me.

MR LAMEY: But did it come to your knowledge before you were involved with the second incident, that unarmed people were shot?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: No.

MR LAMEY: And furthermore, you say that you departed from Island Rock and the function would be concluded at a hotel in Piet Retief.  Can you recall where this place was?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, it was at the Moolman Hotel, approximately 25 kilometres from Piet Retief where we met.

MR LAMEY: And you say your recollection was that Mr Pienaar joined you there at some stage?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, I have an idea that he had arrived there and had discussions with Mr de Kock.  I know later we went to the Security Branch itself.

MR LAMEY: Was Brig Schoon also at the hotel?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, he was also there.

MR LAMEY: At the hotel already, did you become aware that an operation was being planned?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: As I recall everything became clear there, that there would be an operation that evening and it is there where I received my instructions from Mr de Kock, that I should remain with him and the other members and not long afterwards we departed to the Security Branch, where we made preparations.

MR LAMEY: And the further detailed instructions were given to you at the Security Branch in Piet Retief?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: As far as I can recall, yes.

MR LAMEY: In your statement you mention in paragraph 3 that four ANC MK members would infiltrate the country, did you know that a police minibus would be used?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, it was all discussed there.  I think we expected that there would be five.  That is my recollection, but I think I said four there because I know the four were shot afterwards.

MR LAMEY: Did you know where the information came from about the infiltration?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: It came from a source which Freek Pienaar handled, as I understood it.