Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The Fatherland, the Fatherland now - what is the borders of the Fatherland now?

CHAIRPERSON: Does something like that exist for you?

J H VLOK: No, at this stage there's unfortunately not a Volkstaat or a Fatherland that is only governed by the Afrikaner Boerevolk.

CHAIRPERSON: You say unfortunately - are you still planning in the future to get something like that?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, but I believe at this stage that the ANC government will  provide us with land where we can be governed by our own people and that is why I am in front of this Truth Commission in order for reconciliation and in the hope that the ANC government of the day will give us a piece of land where we can be governed by our own people.

CHAIRPERSON: And who will govern it?

J H VLOK: Please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: What party will govern that piece of land?

J H VLOK: Will want to give it, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about govern.

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I do not know what party but it will be represented by the Afrikaner Boerevolk.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you do not get this piece of land?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, that decision rests with the ANC/SACP government that is governing this country at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: But if they decide not to give that piece of land to you, what will your action be then?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, then I will discontinue with my life as it is at present.

CHAIRPERSON: And why did you not do that four years ago?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, at that stage my belief in my leaders and the AWB and I believed that they will be able to get us a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened if there had been a better leadership?

J H VLOK: I would not be able to say, Mr Chairperson, I cannot say because that is not the case.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, your problem now with the whole ideal and the AWB is the leadership that abandoned you, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Amongst other things, yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the other things?  I haven't heard what other reasons you've given because you're not a member of the AWB any more.

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, as I said earlier on, we were abandoned by our leaders and the top structures or we were given instructions rather to do these activities in the name of the AWB and we reconciled ourselves with them, we trusted them and the nation out there and now that we came to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we asked for reconciliation and truth and now they're not prepared to stand with us and that is why I'm disappointed.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that the reason you're not a member of the AWB any more?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason or are there other reasons?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes what - is that the only reason?

J H VLOK: Yes, that is my reason.

CHAIRPERSON: What will happen then regarding membership in the AWB if a democratic election takes place within the circles of the AWB and the leadership or the leaders are someone else - in people whom you trust and not the people who abandoned you now?
	You say that the only reason why you are not a member of the AWB is because the leadership - that you are angry with them, with this leadership, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your position regarding membership of the AWB - what will your position be if there's changes or a complete change of the leadership of the AWB?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I will not be a member of any political organisation again because I believe that there's other methods to, if so, obtain a Volkstaat from the ANC government.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is that?

J H VLOK: Through negotiations because that is why I'm also here - to ask for reconciliation and to tell the truth about the deeds.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL

MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Vlok, when you gave your evidence this morning, you said that you confirmed not only your own evidence but the evidence given by Mr de Wet yesterday, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: In so far as it affected you?  Now you agree therefore that no one in the AWB ever issued an instruction for the killing of innocent civilians, which was Mr De Wet's explicit evidence two or three times yesterday?

J H VLOK: Could you please repeat?

MR BRACHER: Mr de Wet said two or three times yesterday that nobody in the AWB leadership gave instructions for the targeting of innocent civilians by bombs, due you agree with that evidence of Mr De Wet?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because instructions were given by Cliff Barnard that we must detonate the bomb in Germiston and Mr Barnard did tell us that it came directly from the Generals and staff.

MR BRACHER: Do you want to add anything or is that the only instruction you know from an AWB member to target innocent civilians?

UNKNOWN: Actually, that's a good point.

MR BRACHER: Was that Mr Barnard's instruction that you should target innocent civilians when you went out with the bomb on the Monday?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, his instruction was that we must go to Germiston in order to detonate the bomb and he there mentioned that it was the instruction that we must - to do acts of terror amongst the people who would like to take part in the elections and to stop the elections in order to force them to provide a Volkstaat.

MR BRACHER: Is that your answer?  Did he tell you to target innocent civilians?

MS VAN DER WALT: That was not the instruction, that was not the target.  He just said what the target was and what the purpose was.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand your objection?

MS VAN DER WALT: The witness was asked what was the order of Barnard, was it to kill innocent people and the applicant very seriously and clearly put it that the instruction was to plant a bomb in order to - as an act of terror - in order to stop the elections and that was his instruction.  If the conclusions are made then it's another story but that was his instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you then rephrase your question, Mr ...[inaudible]

MR BRACHER: Mr Chairman, I always know when I've got a good question when I get interrupted by Advocate van der Walt.  I'm not rephrasing the question, I want an answer to that question - did Mr Barnard tell you to target innocent civilians explicitly.  I'm entitled to an answer to that question, yes or no?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, Nicolas Barnard - and I say again what I said earlier on - gave me the instruction to go with the vehicle to Germiston to detonate the bomb there as an act of terror, that people must be killed in order to create panic amongst the people so that we can try and attempt to stop the elections and that a Volkstaat will be enforced.

MR BRACHER: Is that all he said to you about the target?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I was not involved in the planning of the bomb, that was my order.

CHAIRPERSON: So including the instruction then it was also said that people must lose their lives?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Okay now, that's what Barnard said to you, has anybody else said anything about targeting innocent civilians in the AWB leadership?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, people that talk about war and we went up to wage a war, to stop the elections and to force them to give us a Volkstaat and war talk - there was talk about a definite possibility of people who would be killed but the direct instruction that I received was from Cliff Barnard.

CHAIRPERSON: Concerning your own opinion, was there ever a possibility before you decided on war that this Volkstaat will be handed over, was that not one of the options in your own opinion?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.