Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Bushy that is what I wanted to touch on as well.  As Mrs Nzilane said that the burden is on Gqozo's shoulders, but what we must investigate is that the burden of the then South African government where does it start and where does it end?  You were all here in the morning when Mr Kriel told us about how he sent his men to Ciskei so that a police force would be built and also a Ciskean Defence Force.  My question is when he told us that this would take over the Ciskean Government why was it then necessary that a Ciskean Police Force and Defence Force would have to be built up?  What was the point and what was the motive?  These are the things that I think the Commission should investigate.  Because according to their statements to day and their submissions they say that they blame the ANC and Gqozo, but I think we should investigate properly why it was that people were deployed to Ciskei, what was the cause and what was the motive.
 A burden that sits on our shoulders as a Commission is that when we talk about reconciliation what exactly are we referring to?  When you call people here to tell the truth 
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what is it exactly that we are going to reconcile?  What are we going to look at?  When people come here, people who have lost husbands, people who have lost children that were breadwinners, the deaths of these people impacts on the lives of these people.  It is not only a gross violation of human rights, but people as a result of this have been disempowered.  The Black man has always been a social outcast, without citizenship, without anything.  People were oppressed because they were powerless.  When we say that we are reconciling what happens to the dynamics of power of the time?  If those power relations are still intact how are we going to talk about reconciliation if people are suffering to this day?   We should therefore go further than the point of just apologising and saying sorry, but look at the fact that people are impoverished and look at how these people can be helped. 
 What I am saying Bushy and the rest of you is that you are giving us a challenge, a challenge that evokes from us a sense of wanting to help.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR POTGIETER: Any other questions, Hlengiwe Mkhize?  Please go ahead.

MS MKHIZE: Mr Vantyu I just have a few questions.  You, in your statement you indicated that you were a member of the Department of Intelligence and Security of the National Congress, can you just indicate to us as to for how long did you hold that position?  That is my first question.
 A second question which I am not sure whether it's appropriate or not to ask but I am compelled to ask you, as a person who played a major role in this region did you anticipate any problems while you were facilitating the march?  If you did, did you take any precautions?  By saying EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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did you anticipate any problems you have just said to us that you planned to occupy Bisho for 24 hours, so when I say did you anticipate any problems I am just wondering whether you anticipated an armed reaction on the part of the establishment, and if you did you know what precautions were taken?  Or now as you are looking back how do you see that kind of a strategy?

BUSHY PETROS VANTYU: Thank you Commissioner.  In response to your first question, I don't know whether you want me to indicate how long I have been a member DS inside the country or from the onset.

MS MKHIZE: Actually as I am asking this question I wanted you to tell us as Commissioners, in a way to assist your credibility, you know for how long have you held this position, both outside and inside the country?

BUSHY PETROS VANTYU: I have been a member of DS since 1987.  In response to your second question, you know the problem in the Ciskei was not the soldiers or the police, the problem in the Ciskei was the leadership and its advisors.  Hence you saw the top cream of the CDF being discharged from the army.  When we were organising the march, like you would remember there were a lot of repressive incidents in the villages but we still could go to the villages and we were compelled, because our people lived in those villages, they wanted to be part of the transformation in South Africa.  They were members of the ANC, they wanted to strengthen their branches, and they had that resolve to go to Bisho and make the statement to the Bisho administration that the vast majority of the Ciskean people do not agree with the administration of Brigadier Gqozo.  And I was happy with the measures that were taken.  We had more than 1200 marshals
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many of which I have worked with, and I was sure of their capability.  And I've put it on record that that particular day I was not assigned to bodyguard any particular person but to assist with the marshals, with the marshalling.  We didn't, I didn't really think that we would be shot at at Bisho, not at all.  I never got indication that we would be shot at, hence I was running in the forefront.  I wouldn't just run into gunfire, I love my life.  I still value it, and I valued it then.  I was surprised.  In actual fact when I was hurt I thought I was hit by a rubber bullet.  It's only during the process of being hospitalised or when in the process of getting out of the stadium when people started saying, calling on us that there were dead people, you know I couldn't really believe.  I was telling my friends and colleagues yesterday when we went to inspect the spot where I was shot yesterday that I am happy that I was shot.  I am happy that I didn't have to experience what they experienced, to see all those people dead in front of them.  Thank you Commissioner.  I don't know whether I have answered your question in full.

MS MKHIZE: Well just as a follow-up I really do not understand what exactly do you mean if you say you didn't anticipate an aggressive reaction on the part of the establishment, I mean given your experience in intelligence surely you knew in this country how committed the Homeland leaders were in their small little islands which had been created for them?

BUSHY PETROS VANTYU: To the contrary, like I put initially, that some of the soldiers and policemen in Ciskei were against Brigadier Gqozo, but they were employed by him.  In actual fact they were favouring the ANC.  So in that sphere I
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didn't anticipate that they would shoot at us.  Of course I'd expected maybe if they were so foolhardy in preventing the march they might fire teargas or something.  But in terms of firing live ammunition I didn't anticipate that.  In actual fact we received utterly no information on our side as members of DIS that people were - or the measures that were going to be taken.