Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-25

ADV BOSMAN: Were you armed?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Again, I might not have heard you, I might not have heard you properly, but what I wrote down a couple of minutes ago was in answer to why you didn't do anything, you said something like if I got the instruction, I would have done it.  Did I get that wrong?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But you told us you did get the instruction, so why are you saying if I got the instruction, I would have done it?  Can you just explain that to me?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That what I explained now, if Mr Jaco Nel gave me the instruction and I was in the position to do it, that is now in the back of the vehicle, I would have done it myself.

MR MALAN: You say if you had received the instruction, I thought I understood that that was after the lighting of the fuse and the throwing of the bomb, are you saying that if you got the instruction to light the fuse, you would have done it?  If you got the instruction to throw the bomb, you would have done it?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.  That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, did you foresee when that bomb was thrown, that people would be killed?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I knew that people would be killed.

MR PRINSLOO: The question is did you foresaw this?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I did.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, did you identify yourself with the instruction that was given and that Steyn will throw the bomb in the direction where people will be killed?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I did identify myself.

MR PRINSLOO: And that is also where you were found guilty, that is the murder of those people?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And after this bomb was thrown by Peet Steyn, what did you do?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: After this bomb was thrown, Mr Nel then said we have to move away and he already figured out the route, but when we drove away, this man cracked up.
	Where I sat next to him, it didn't seem as he was even able to drive this motor car, it was as if he had a nervous break down, he wasn't in control of himself, he drove in a one way road.
	He almost drove into a police van.  He was out of himself and the way I looked at him, I saw that he isn't the person who was part of this instruction, he wasn't the same person.  He was not himself.  We then left there and because he mentioned the road blocks on the road or the way we had to go with the road blocks, he did not want to go there because we were scared at that stage and he agreed that we can be stopped and arrested at a road block and he will go around this holiday resort to these people.
	But that afternoon I heard that he said that they will see him again.  We then left and went there, we arrived there.  They introduced us to the people, I cannot remember their surname, it was two blind men.  One of the men's wives were with them, the children, there were two or three other women without the one blind man's wife.
	We just greeted them and then Jaco Nel and I think the two women left and I also thought that it was because of the state in which he was.  We had a conversation with these men, they played guitar, they sang and we discussed certain things where they said they were from the former Rhodesia and that is where they became blind because of explosions and they gathered there together with the AWB for the protection of these women and children that I talked earlier about.
	I don't know how long it was, it was a few hours, I cannot really remember the time, then Jaco Nel appeared again and he said to us that we are going to drive back to the game farm.  When we arrived at the game farm, it was approximately three o'clock the morning as he gave evidence, he was or Johan Smit shouted at him.
	I did not involve myself because he had to give the feed back.

ADV GCABASHE: I was actually thinking about this over night, and it is a good thing you are here today, just - I was thinking about this, there is just a bit that I don't understand here, it is also from your colleagues' evidence, you left the resort at about two in the morning, three o'clock in the morning, two o'clock in the morning?  Clear that up for me?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, it was approximately two o'clock because we arrived at three o'clock at the game farm.

ADV GCABASHE: You arrived at three o'clock at the game farm and the impression I have is that you walked straight into a meeting.  This can't be, so can you just help me with that?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, I do not know anything about a meeting that morning.  All that I know is that when we arrived there, Johan Smit as he said, he was shouted at and I do not want to use those words again, and that we will leave the next morning, but they were very angry.  I then went to bed.

ADV GCABASHE: Where did the confrontation with Smit take place, that is really where I am lost?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: It was when we walked into the building, Johan Smit, he did not talk, but shouted where the hell are you coming from now?
	There wasn't really a confrontation, it was just the way in which he put it that he was dissatisfied because we arrived so late.  I did not involve myself with that discussion because Jaco Nel was in charge of this mission, and he was the mission and I left it to him to explain what happened.

ADV GCABASHE: So Smit wasn't sleeping, he was sitting in some building at three o'clock in the morning?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Smit did not sleep, because when we walked through the doors where the people were sleeping, he stood, he was standing there.

ADV GCABASHE: Who else was in this building, I had the impression it was a public discussion or shouting at, if you want to call it that?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is true.  The people who slept there, they were all in the building, that is where we slept so it was a public discussion, or in public.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay, that has helped, thank you.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, the place that the honourable Member just asked you about, what place was this?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: It was at the game farm?

MR PRINSLOO: Was it a hall?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, it was a big hall with toilet facilities, it was an organised place.

MR PRINSLOO: So this place where Major Smit was, where was he, he was in the hall?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, where the people slept, yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: You now arrived at the game farm, Major Smit shouted at Jaco Nel.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And what happened then, did you remain there?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I went to go and sleep and they said that same morning we would leave.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you leave that same morning?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, we left for the shooting range.

MR PRINSLOO: That was close to Rustenburg?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, when you acted on that specific day during that period, did you do it for yourself or why did you do it?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: This deed was done on behalf of the AWB.  This was the instructions that we received, so it was on behalf of the AWB that I committed these deeds.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, after all that has happened today, how do you feel about your action where you took the lives of people and injured other people?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: During that time I believed that it was right, today I see and realise that it was not right to kill innocent people and to injure them, because there are better solutions.
	The way I feel now, I would like to convey my condolences and sympathy with all those victims of all the explosions, not just mine, but of all of them.  I am sorry that they were victims for the purpose that we wanted to reach, but in that situation I believe you are not yourself.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Fourie, your statement as it was presented to this honourable Commission, do you confirm that?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I do.