Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That morning after having prepared everything the unit commander, the late TNT and the late Luvuyo left to go and fetch the car.  We were then to wait for them about near the car, the road where the car was to pass.
	They came back with the car and we got in and we left for Da Gama.  I beg your pardon.  Because we had awoke very early that morning we waited for the bus.  We first passed at Da Gama gate, we waited for the bus at a turn way off so that when it comes from about town about the area with Njeje and facing Da Gama, to enable us to follow it and then the driver would pass it.
	Initially our plans were to use a rifle grenade but when we were there waiting for that bus, we then discovered that we cannot use a rifle grenade, we must rather use guns.  Truly we are great.  The people who were supposed to shoot there were supposed to be the late TNT, the late Kid because they were at the left of the car and I was right behind the driver so I would not be able to shoot and the bus would be very near me.
	They were supposed to appear through the car windows and sit with their backs on the window of the car and shoot over the roof of the car at the bus, as the bus is passing, they were supposed to do that.  That is where a squabble arose.  The late Kid said: "No, let me simply shoot it myself with the rifle grenade", I said: "I cannot do that" because it was too near for me to do that, it is better for you to use the guns.  They refused to do that.
	And at that time the bus is moving on, the car is moving on facing the gate of Da Gama.  The car slowed down about to turn into the gate, the bus slowed down.  We stopped near the gates as per instruction from the commander.  
	After stopping they disembarked, they shot at the bus.  I too shot but from inside the car.  Shots rang from a car that was seemingly escorting that bus, that we only discovered at that time.  There was a lot of - a shootout arose there, a lot of shots rang out and the security guards of Da Gama were also assisting, we were shooting each other.   The last time I shot was right there.
	When those people came out I could no more shoot because my bullets, the bullets were hitting the car at the sides where I was and others were going through the window from my side.  I feared that if I raise my head they would hit my head.  I was forced to also disembark.  It was difficult for me to disembark because the late - African Tjabane was next to me.  When I said he must disembark, it was also difficult for him.
	I was forced to jump over him and I jumped over him.  After jumping over him the late African Kid and TNT, I could not see them but shots were still ringing out at that time hitting the car and I thought at the time that they had retreated and left us there, all three of us.
	The driver had been hit on his muscle behind his knee.  I was forced to stay in the car protecting the driver, taking the cover for the driver and Tjabane so as to allow them to run.  I did that, I shot.  They in the meantime were running away going into the forest nearby.  I again shot in order to give myself a chance to follow them, I then followed.
	When we were in the forest I saw in front of me the late African Luvuyo running, he was limping as he had been shot.  I followed him, I could not see Tjabane, where he had gone to.  I could not see the late Kid and TNT anymore.  We crossed through the long grass, crossed the railraod, crossed the road beyond the railroad facing a factory or a firm beyond the road and then we crossed that road facing the graveyard.  
	Bullets and shots were ringing out from our back.  We then went through the graveyard, went through the ...[indistinct] river, over the river facing the houses at Mdantsane 2 going to the African Tona.  The plan was to go and leave the African who had been hit.  When we got there that African put into another house because their family's house has two sections, another for old people, another for kids.   He put us in the house below.
	When we got there he got out and said he's coming back.  He got back coming with a mother who was introduced to us as the wife of the African Jimmy Jones.  She was staying quite near, it seems next door to the African ...[indistinct] to help the African who was injured.  He helped him, bandaged him, wiped the blood off him, he brought food to us.  It was difficult to consume that food because we did not know what had happened to the others.	
	We stayed on the whole day in that house.  Late another house was arranged where we were supposed to go and sleep so that the following morning we could go to Transkei.  We went to that house and we slept.  The following day he gave us money to use for transport to go back to Transkei.  
	Because I was afraid for the gun I was using and having on me, to go back with it to Transkei fearing roadblocks, I requested him to keep it for me.  I left it there with him.  We left and we boarded transport at Highway.  When we got to Highway we used a taxi to Transkei in order to go and give a report back about what had happened.
	When we got to Transkei, when we got there at Mamma's Restaurant we were told that the Africans had been arrested the day before.  We too we shall be forced to disappear and not be seen otherwise we would be captured too.  We left there going to a school there called the Butterworth College of Education, to go to Africans who were there.  As we had got money - the money we got from TO was only sufficient to take Mdantsane to Txoa, Butterworth that is.
	We then arrived at that college, we met other Africans, we told them our problems and they gave us money.  We took transport going to Tsomo in order to go and hide there.  Truly we left until we got home at Tsomo in Transkei.

MS COLLETT: Did you find Jimmy Jones when you went back to Transkei after the mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, we did not get him.

MS COLLETT: Now, you didn't carry out the attack on the bus of the white children, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, we could not because the mission at Da Gama ended up with a shootout with the security and we were split and we had left the car we were using there.

MS COLLETT: Now, TNT, Kid and Luvuyo, are they all deceased?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, they are not around, they are not alive anymore.

MS COLLETT: And what about Tona?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As far as I know he is still alive, as the last time I saw him we were at court last year.

MS COLLETT: And what about Jimmy Jones, where is he?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He too is still alive.

MS COLLETT: Now is it correct that the director of operations testified at your trial in Bisho regarding the Bahai Faith Mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And what did he say?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He explained that all that happened and which we did, we did according to instructions given.  As he too was getting reportbacks from the commander who was commanding us to go and make those attacks what had transpired, as the Director of operations.

MS COLLETT: And this man's name, the director of operations is who?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is African Leklapa Mpashlele.

MS COLLETT: Now, it's correct that you stood trial for the Highgate hotel, the Da Gama and the Nahoon Dam attacks in East London some time ago?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you tell the truth at that trial or not?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not tell the truth.

MS COLLETT: Why?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was trying to protect the commander.

MS COLLETT: Which commander?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: African Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: Have you made full and proper disclosure today before this Committee regarding all these activities for which you are applying for amnesty?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so, yes.

MS COLLETT: Did you benefit financially from any of the attacks that were carried out, yourself?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not benefit.