Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No Sir, as I've said, in the army it's not the same with the PAC where you can ask anything you want to ask or want to know.  In the army as I've said already, there you do as ordered.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mbambo, perhaps at the rist of belabouring the point, when you look back you do not think that perhaps you would have spent your energies better by moving around and campaining for your party, in other words persuading people to vote for the political party you've mentioned in the forthcoming elections?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No, Sir, I'm sure I would have used my energies the correct but there were people who were tasked in that fashion.  For that matter Sir, as far as I knew then, the PAC was still in conflict as to whether to go into the elections or not.  It only decided very late that it would go into the elections at the time I was a soldier doing my job as a soldier more than doing PAC work as an organisation.

ADV SANDI: On anther issue, you have made mention of names of quite a number of lawyers, did any one of those lawyers explain to how you would have to go about fulfilling the requirements of the Amnesty Law?  Was that ever explained to you?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No, there is no attorney that explained to me that in order, except Mrs Sally Collett.  There is no other attorney that explained that to me, especially those of the party.  Mr Ntonga, the one next to you and Mr Mbandazayo and others, they simply lied to me.

ADV SANDI: Perhaps we should very briefly explain it to you that it is not, to qualify for amnesty is not simply a matter of ...[intervention]  Okay thank you, I will withdraw the point.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.
	Why did you join APLA?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: The reason for joining APLA, I saw the suffering I was experiencing and the suffering of the Africans in their own land and the oppression from other people who are in fact not indiginous and the way other Africans were being killed when they tried to march, demonstrating against their oppression and the histroy that I studied at school because I was specialising in history at school.

MS COLLETT: What did you think APLA was going to achieve or what was it trying to achieve that attracted you to join it?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: What made me join the struggle of APLA, I studied it in the PAC that we as ama Africa wanted our land back from the white man in order to allow the African his dignity back, the dignity of Africans to Africans so that they could govern themselves the way they want in your own land.

MS COLLETT: Now the missions proposed and missions that you carried out and the missions that you know were carried out by APLA, do you think that they were aimed at achieving those objectives?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Is that why you associated yourself with the missions?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you yourself or were you yourself ever involved in the initial reconnaissance of any of the missions of which you were part?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No.

MS COLLETT: Were you under the impression or did you think that reconnaissance had been done in all missions before they were carried out?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I used to think that it must have been done because they simply returned and told us everything about how - the method to approach it, how this place must be attacked and this made me think that if they knew how this place must be attacked they must have gone there and saw how this place must be attacked.

MR LAX: Sorry, who is they: "they returned", who is "they"?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: You see Sir, they say to us we must go and attack a certain place in this fashion ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Who is the "they"?  You keep saying "they", who is the "they", which people?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It is commander and the people he uses for reconnaissance.

MR LAX: Which commander?  You've got two commanders, you've TNT as your one commander, you've got the base commander and then you've got your operational commander, which commander are you talking about?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I'm talking about the commander from whom we got the orders, Jimmy Jones.

MR LAX: Now who were these other people that went and did the reconnaissance?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It must be other people he used to use.  And the reason why I say this is that he knew that he was a working person.  He would not get the chance ordinarily from his work and come to East London and check a place, how it must be attacked and how dangerous it would be because was working.  That is why I think he used certain people, perhaps is sent to go and check such things.

MR LAX: You see you said to us that you saw those people coming back, I want to know who they were.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I do not remember that Sir.

MR LAX: That was your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it wasn't "coming back", it was "returned", that's the difference.
	You said: "because they returned and told us", that implies they left you, they went and they came back to you.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Which instance?

MR LAX: You said these people would go out, they would do their reconnaissance, they returned, they discussed it with us and they gave us their orders.  So I don't know which incidents you're talking about, you know what you're talking about but you saw them go out, you saw them come back, you spoke to them, who are you talking about?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: When I was talking like that I was responding to Sally Collett, talking generally, not talking about myself in particular.  I was generalising that clearly people go and make reconnaissance and come back and then we are told what we must go and do at a certain place.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not generalising, you were asked specifically about yourself and as to whether you ever did any original reconnaissance and your reply was: "I never did original reconnaissance but it must have been done because they returned and told us how the place must be attacked".
	It wasn't a generalisation, it was a specific question and you said: "they returned".  We want to know who is the "they" who returned and told you how the place must be attacked.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is true Sir, that's how I put it.  At the time I thought I was generalising.  I'm sorry that you understood me in a different way.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS COLLETT: Now whilst you were a member of APLA, did  you ever have any reason to mistrust or to distrust any of the instructions that were given to you to carry out any missions by Jimmy Jones?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No, I never had any reason not to trust what he says to us or his orders.

MS COLLETT: At the time that these missions were carried out, had you been informed - or let me put it this say, had the cadres in the Butterworth base been informed about the suspension of the armed struggle from any commander?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Unless I was not there when they were told, in my presence nothing like that was ever said until Jimmy Jones told me about it in prison, that the elections had taken place and the armed struggle has been suspended.

MS COLLETT: Now, ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry.
	He wasn't in the Butterworth base when the armed struggle was suspended, he was at home, he only went to the base in the middle of March, so ...

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairperson with respect, I referred him to the missions in which he participated in.  The missions he participated in were after he went back to the base with the others to Jimmy.  I'm asking him if whilst he was at that base, before he went on any of those missions, he was ever informed by any commander that the armed struggle had been suspended.  I think it's a legitimate question.

MR LAX: Fair enough, sorry.

MS COLLETT: Could we have a response again, I didn't hear.