Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-09

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, that is true but you cannot trust a person.  I cannot trust the people who were fighting with us.  I cannot say I can visit them and spend a night and drink their tea, the only thing I can do is to greet them and go on with my way.

MR SHANE: Have you got anything to say now that you have revealed, and now that Albert may well become aware who was responsible for the burning of his house?  Have you anything to say to Albert?

BONGANI NKOSI: No, there is nothing.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, I submit that it is common cause that there was a war in the area at the time between the IFP and ANC, and I won't lead the applicant on that.
	That is his evidence Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  Mr Nkosi, just one quick answer here, this A4 Mazibuko Street, how many shacks were burnt?

BONGANI NKOSI: I have explained that when you go to just such area, you are afraid because you know that there are enemies, so I wouldn't be able to have the number.

ADV GCABASHE: No, that was not quite right.  It is definitely more than one, it is not one?  Would you say that?

BONGANI NKOSI: I would say coming from the gate, you first approach the first shack, as we were secretly getting to the place, so we were not able to go to the other side to see if there were others.

ADV GCABASHE: You are comfortable with this going down as one count of arson, not more than one?  You are comfortable with that?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes.  I would say yes, but you might ask me questions which will make it difficult for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then you've got to answer it.

BONGANI NKOSI: I will accept that it was one, yes, it was one shack.

ADV GCABASHE: Then the other area where I didn't make a note was Thabete's house.  When was that destroyed, roughly the year and the month if you can remember the month?

BONGANI NKOSI: I can't remember the month and the date.  All that I know is that we burnt the shacks and the next day, we came back and demolished the house.

ADV GCABASHE: But you wouldn't know if it was 1992 or 1993 or 1994?

BONGANI NKOSI: 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: Now coming back to, thank you I've got clarity on what I have written here, an area that I would like a little more assistance on is your role as a leader, as an SDU leader at Mandela Section.  That was your Section even though you were an Overall Commander, your Section was Mandela Section, yes?

BONGANI NKOSI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Within your Section, Mandela Section, how many members were there in your team, in the SDU that you controlled?

BONGANI NKOSI: I will estimate and say it was 12.

ADV GCABASHE: You also talked about the lack of structure, the lack of codes at the beginning, but this I understand you to infer that this eventually did come right, you did have a formal structure, you did have codes, am I correct in assuming that?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And am I correct in assuming from the other evidence we have heard, at these hearings, that those codes and guidelines came from the Central Command where the broader leadership was based?

BONGANI NKOSI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you sit as a member of the Central Command in your position as the Overall Commander?

BONGANI NKOSI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Sorry Mr Chairman, madam, I just wish to point out that the applicant is referring to a document which is in fact a copy of a document contained in the papers before you, on the structures that you are questioning him.  It is before you, the document, he refers to.

ADV GCABASHE: Thankyou Mr Shane.  Mr Nkosi, now just explain to me your particular role as a member of the Central Committee and as the same person who was in control of the SDUs, how did you function?  What were your roles?

BONGANI NKOSI: As a Chief Commander I will attend meetings and we had meetings on Tuesdays.  There were 13 sections in Tokoza, including Phola Park, so we will sit and listen to the complaints of these sections and try to find solutions.
	I will go to attend meetings and to represent my section.  My meeting attendance and all those things, made it easy for us to share information.  If anything happened at a particular section, for example at Tambo, they will give us the information during the meetings and if we don't have enough equipment, meaning firearms and ammunitions, we will report to the other sections and they will try and help with the supply.
	So these are the things that we were doing with the help also of our leaders within the ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: In terms of giving orders, you could only give orders for a particular operation within Mandela section, am I right, or could you also give orders to the other SDU Commanders from the other areas?

BONGANI NKOSI: To explain I would say at Mandela Section, I will issue orders or instructions, tell them to go and burn a particular area.  If there were other problems in other sections, I will go to collect information as to what was happening.  We were not supposed to discuss a lot of things, because we knew that we were fighting.  The only thing we had to do, was to shoot our enemy and you didn't have to tell anyone that, they will shoot.  Because all the people knew who the enemies were.

ADV GCABASHE: But you are saying, so if you went to for instance Lusaka A, there was Umsimango who was a Commander in Lusaka A, he would be in overall control of whatever activity in Lusaka A, you would just be a consultant essentially?  You would not take over the running of Lusaka A's operation, is this what you are saying?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, that helps me to understand it better.  Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Nkosi, I will like to ask you some question about this person you said was from Natal, who said he was told by his brother that he can get some work.  My question is, if it was just an IFP person without any involvement in the conflict which was happening at Tokoza, would you still regard him as a legitimate target?

BONGANI NKOSI: This is a very good question, as I explained we were fighting.  As soon as you recognised that this person or identify the person as an IFP, you have to attack the person.
	Whoever will come around, wearing an IFP T-shirt, I will kill him, I wouldn't leave such a person.  I would have killed such a person.

MR SIBANYONI: Now the reason why this person was killed, was it because he was an IFP person solely?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Let us talk now about the no-go areas, or no-go zones.  Is it not possible that in such an area, you will find people who are not IFP members or supporters?

BONGANI NKOSI: To explain in order to give you the full picture, I will say most of the people who died in Tokoza, were innocent.  Even us, we didn't know exactly where things started and where we were going.
	Some people even today, aren't able to go back to their houses.  We had to fight for survival.  As I am explaining to you, many people were killed because there were no-go areas.  If we knew, we knew each other very well, and if anyone appears to be in the no-go area, and we didn't know the person, we had to shoot the person.

MR SIBANYONI: Is your answer to say that it was possible that a person who is not an IFP, who is found in an IFP no-go area, would be killed?

BONGANI NKOSI: Whatever happened on the right hand side, will happen on the left hand side.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words, in those shacks which you burnt, it is possible that there were people who were not IFP members or supporters?