Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-20

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we commence with the applications of Phila Martin Dolo, application 3485/96 and Thabiso James Makoala - 6026/97.  Today being the 20th of April 1998.
	Mr Chairman, there were delays, the Committee was aware of those delays.  I don't know if you want anything placed on record.  There seemed to be a series of problems that we encountered this morning.  
	Firstly relating to the attendance of Mr Mokoala, who came very late in the morning, due to a confusion between the jail authorities and the South African Police, and also the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was as I think you've told us outside the hearing, sent to the wrong place and they had to go and fetch him and bring him back here.

MR PRIOR: That is correct, Mr Chairman.  Unbeknown to the TRC, we were dealing with it on the basis that he was a sentenced prisoner and yet he was not.  He was awaiting trial, and there was, therein lay the confusion, Mr Chairman.
	But, however, we're in the position to commence.  All the interested parties have been notified.  Possibly just to place myself on record.  Advocate P C Prior, Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee.  Both applicants are represented.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I confirm that I represent Phila Martin Dolo in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Your name please.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My name is Mbandazayo, representing Phila Martin Dolo.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My name is Mthembu.  I represent Thabiso James Makoala.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee consists of myself, Mr Sibanyoni, Mr Sandi and Mr Lax.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I indicate that there were several victims.  All were notified.  Those, Mr Tsemane, the deceased of the matter has his family who are present.  Mr Schroeder, his wife, or his widow, was notified timeously on the 27th of March.  She's not present, however I understood that her, the deceased's brother or brother-in-law would be attending.  I have not yet seen them Mr Chairman, but contact was made with the Amnesty Committee and that family.  Mr Brummer, that is Mrs Brummer's husband, will not be attending.  He has indicated and communicated that to the Committee.  The implicated persons, Mr Leemisa has been notified.  I understand that there is no representation by him today and the other implicated person, Mr Modiboloa is some confusion or some doubt as to whether he is still alive at this time.  He was unable to be traced Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, having said that, the matter is ready to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is there senior officer?

MR LAX: Perhaps I could help there.  My recollection was that they received their instructions via Mphahlele.

CHAIRPERSON: That is my recollection.  Has he been informed?

MR PRIOR: Chairman, according to Dolo's application he says he was carrying out orders from APLA and Comrade Sibelo Palma had given him orders in Harare.  So as far as his application strict is concerned there was no, I speak under correction, and for that reason there is no Commander who is notified.  Let me just check the other one.

MR LAX: If I could be of assistance here, if you look at paragraph 5 on page 2 of Mr Dolo's affidavit he makes it clear that he was deployed in that area by Lethlapha Mphahlele on the instructions of Sibelo Palma.  In essence page 2 of the new bundle you have given us, sorry, I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, that was only received this morning.  Yes, no, we understand that, but obviously we need to, I mean Mr Mbandazayo you can correct me if I am wrong, but...  (intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman, I wanted to just to clarify that point Mr Chairman.  The only thing its not a question of order ... (indistinct) is that he was deployed in that area by Comrade Lethlapha Mphahlele.

MR PRIOR: Yes.  But in any event you're in touch with Mr Mphahlele and we're hoping to hear from you tomorrow in that regard.  You can just draw this one to his attention as well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well page 10 of the application by Makoala, paragraph 11(b) he said the orders were issued by L Mtashlela.  He showed he is clearly an implicated person.  Will you draw his attention to it.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman may the initial bundle be marked "A", where the index runs 1 - 9 and the supplementary bundle "B"?

CHAIRPERSON: Right, that will be done.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I don't know if it's necessary to briefly summarise the matter before we commence?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it may be as the first deposition you will hear will be that of the applicant, and it might be better if there is at least agreement as to the order in which events happened and how they happened.

MR PRIOR: May I then refer to page 41 of the supplementary bundle.  It sets out the summary, Mr Chairman, of the events that occurred on the 19th of November 1992 on the Sterkspruit Lady Grey Road.  That incident relates to the deaths of three people;  Mr Peter Schroeder, Mrs Shirley Brummer and Mr Tsemane on that day where their vehicles were attacked.  Shots were fired and they sustained fatal injuries.  There was also an attempted murder of Mr Douglas Selly, who drove past.  May I just place on record Mr Selly lives permanently in England for the last three and a half years, Mr Chairman, I understand that he hasn't been informed of the matter, and at the same time in an Isuzu bakkie, two ladies, Mrs Dlephu and Mrs Booysen, teachers, who also came under attack on that same day after the shooting of the three earlier people that I mentioned.  And their vehicle was in fact taken by the applicants and their Comrades.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior there were three ladies in that vehicle, the third one being Mrs Molungwana.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I noticed that.

CHAIRPERSON: There were four according to Mrs Booysen.  In Page 11 of bundle "B" she said
"I was travelling with three passengers, Mrs Busosewe Dlephu, Mrs Nonsekolelo Ngepe and Mrs Molungwana."

MR PRIOR: Quite correct Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you perhaps tell us Mr Prior,  I have been endeavouring to work out what must have happened.  It might clarify things a little if we are told, presumable evidence will be lead.  We have been given such graphs in the bundle "B" and we have been given a key which merely says "pointed out by Warrant Officer Gomada and Sergeant Adonis."  What were these points?  In photograph 3 what are they pointing out?  In photograph 4 what are they pointing out?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I'll able to clarify that.  My understanding is that I think photograph 3 is where the body of Mr Schroeder was lying and 4 was were the bakkie left the road, but that is subject to confirmation, Mr Chairman, and I will certainly be leading evidence.  But that seems to be the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, 4 was a place well away from the road, photograph 4, it may be where the bakkie came to rest, not where it left the road.

MR PRIOR: Came to rest Mr Chairman, yes.  And those correspond with the places we see, or where photographs 23, photographs on 23 and 24, Mr Chairman.  Sorry after the second bundle, Mr Chairman, of "B".

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Perhaps one last point to make the reference easier.  We have the photograph no 1 on page 19, 17 of the new bundle, bundle "B".  Does that show the road leading to Sterkspruit at the top of the photograph?

MR PRIOR: That's right Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And Lady Grey at the bottom?

MR PRIOR: That's correct Mr Chairman.  And one can see the bridge almost in the middle, slightly less than the middle of the page from the top with a wear, there's a wear apparently on the right hand side, Mr Chairman, and that is the place depicted on page 20 onwards.  And that's where the bakkie apparently came to rest in that area.