Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR BLACK: Thanks, Mr Chairman.  Those are some of the questions which I just want to hold, to stand down for a while, for further consultation.
	I will put it to you that the reason why you went to burn the house where the Masupa household lives, is because of this dispute which occurred in the cafe, between your, the people who were with you and Mr Masupa, relating to the question of change.  And I will demonstrate to you, and it will be alleged that you and your friends entered that cafe and caused trouble, you administered lashes, sjamboks and disturbing the customers, and you were told to leave.  Did that happen?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: In my correct, in my memory, what I understand is that whilst the problem arose between Mr Masupa and one of my comrades, Mr Mahlangu, it came to my sense that I should try and bring Mr Mahlangu to line and yes, I remember now that I even took out a sjambok and showed Mr Mahlangu that ultimately if he causes trouble, he will be sjambokked, but upon Mr Masupa's insistence and utterances then it went out of hand and it developed into something that would not warrant me to give away my comrade.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now Mr Ndlovu, I am going to demonstrate to this Committee that what you are saying is you are being very economical on the truth, as it were, with the truth.  But I will return to the disturbances at the shop and the allegations which you have made about Mr Masupa at a later stage.
	What I want to ask of you, is were you after all these years of knowing Mr Masupa and that he worked there, that he actually slept at that shop?  He used to sleep at the shop.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I wasn't aware of that.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Because he will testify that he used to sleep upstairs and his grandfather used to take him to school in the morning and he would then return to work in the shop.  Now the burning down of the Masupa house, did that receive the  ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: ...Mr Black, do you deny this or is it the truth or don't you know?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That he was sleeping in the shop?

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, I didn't carry knowledge of that.

ADV DE JAGER: Now you went to attack the place where his head rests, that is where he sleeps.  Isn't that so?  That's how I understood you.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, that's how I and my comrades, we believed that's where he sleeps.

ADV DE JAGER: But you didn't know where he is sleeping.  So you don't know whether he slept in the shop?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: M'Lord, I should point to you that two of my comrades were in the same street with Mr Masupa, and I was in the next street and the others were in the street following me.  So that knowledge really came through my
comrades as such.  So I wouldn't know that at the time he was no longer sleeping at home.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you said in your evidence, when I asked you some questions, that Hendrik did not live there? That he was 23 to 26 years of age and did not live in that house. That's what you told me.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I doubt it, M'Lord.  You asked me as to whether Hendrik was present then and I answered that no, we had left him there in the shop.

JUDGE WILSON: No, that is not what I asked you.  I asked you his age and you said his age.  I then asked you if he lived there.  You said Hendrik did not live there, it was his father's house, his family lived there.  You didn't say anything about leaving him at the shop.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, I remember, M'Lord, I answered to the effect that there had been a culture that had been created amongst us as comrades, that even if it meant that an informer or a police wife or his kids, for that matter, were present at the time, then whatever happened then, would be looked in in a broader context, that it was the elimination of the bad. Because it is either you are with us or you are not with us.  That's the answer I must have given you, M'Lord.

JUDGE WILSON: It was not.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, with respect, I think we may have to look at the - or listen to the recording. My understanding was certainly that he always said that Hendrik slept at the house of his grandfather.  That is as far as he knew, that was where Hendrik slept and that was his evidence throughout, according to my recollection and the notes that I have got.

JUDGE WILSON: But what he went on to say, Mr Currin, which
you may remember, is where he grew up, that was his place.  That is why we took this decision, that he regarded the place where his head rested as the place where he had grown up.  Carry on.

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now I have now only had the opportunity of looking at the court record, very briefly, but is it correct that one of your co-accused at the hearing was Mr Lazarus Motsamai?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Lazarus Motsamai, that's correct.

MR BLACK: Right.  Was he one of the group of the people who went to help burn down the Masupa house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, that's correct.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now Lazarus Motsamai is a friend of Hendrik Masupa.  Do you know that?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That's correct.

MR BLACK: And Hendrik would say, will testify, if necessary, that on a number of occasions, more than one occasion, Lazarus Motsamai actually slept at the shop in the complex where Hendrik slept and he knew that Hendrik slept at that shopping complex.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I wouldn't know.

MR BLACK: Okay. I just want to proceed to the burning of the house. Your actions in burning down the house of the Masupas, was those actions approved of by the comrades?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I wouldn't understand that actions ...?

MR BLACK: Your actions which you carried out that night, in going and burning down the house of the Masupas, was that approved of by the comrades?  Was that within their policy, did they approve of it in that area?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It was not just a matter of approving.  It was a culture that has been with us comrades that the severest
punishment that could be meted out to people who were not co-operative or who were collaborators, stooges and informers, et cetera, would be either to burn the house or to necklace that person in particular.

MR BLACK: The question is again:  your actions of that evening or that night, were they approved of by the comrades or by any organisation, in burning down that house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, they were approved.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Well, then I would like you to explain why is it then that the comrades, the true comrades of that area, assisted the police in effecting the arrests of the parties who participated in the burning of that house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I should say that as indicated before, that in Russia we were in leadership and what happened thereof, this gave way to this collaboration of gangsters who had long been suppressed, because they wouldn't do their function, Masupa, Hendrik and his friends, and the security branch. They in fact intimidated some of our comrades to partake in effecting arrests on fellow comrades.  That was how this happened.  They were manipulated into believing what was done was something that was out of the context of their comradely duties and furthermore, that being - some of them being minors as it is indicated with the people that I was arrested with, and they were therefore easily intimidated by this conspiracy or ...(indistinct)  for that matter.

MR BLACK: Well, let me tell you what happened, according to my instructions.  After the house had been burnt down, or burnt rather, and the comrades arrived at the house, known comrades in that area arrived at the house, together with Mr - the accused number 6, Eliasa Ratane.  Do you know about that?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, I know Mr Eliasa Ratane.

MR BLACK: Yes.  But do you know that the comrades arrived there, had arrested and caught this man and brought him to the Masupa house?