Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

MR SMUTS: That is correct Mr Chairman.  He said that now.  He certainly did not say that when he was being led and so it is an embellishment on the evidence, but it seems he seems to have reverted to the previous contention that it was a suspicion.
	At best Mr Hermans, you were able to associate Mr Costello with rightwing activity by virtue of what you heard in a language you didn't properly understand from the man who you saw leaving Mr Costello's house and boarding the bus in a khaki set of clothing, is that correct?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Correct.

MR SMUTS: Was there any reason to believe that every person with whom Mr Costello came into contact or even who came into his house, was a member of the AWB?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I don't have a reason for that.

MR SMUTS: And there was no evidence that the meetings that were held along the coast, were AWB meetings or even political meetings?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: You knew the area where the victims of your attack were on holiday, did you not?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I knew that place.

MR SMUTS: You knew it well?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes.

MR SMUTS: Did you have relatives in the area?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is the village, that is my village.

MR SMUTS: Did you grow up there?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Please repeat your question.

MR SMUTS: Did you grow up there?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: Does a relative of yours run a shop there?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Correct.

MR SMUTS: How is he related to you?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: He is my father's brother.

MR SMUTS: Did you know that for many years, white people had come to holiday in that area?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: Did you know when you went to the area to launch the attack, that it was a holiday period?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes.

MR SMUTS: You were one of the party that went to reconnoitre the camp where the white people were staying at that time, is that not so?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: What was the purpose of going to investigate the area?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: First of all, we wanted to make sure that there were white people that we could see, that we could attack them, they could be attacked.
	Secondly, I had to take people to go and see the place, so that they could come back and give information back to those who were left behind about what we found out in that area.

MR SMUTS: By the time that you went to the area, had you decided that if there were white people in the area, they were to be attacked?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: It would depend on who was there, what kind of white people were there.

MR SMUTS: Well, what kind of white people were you prepared to attack and what kind of white people were you not prepared to attack?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: The white people that were suspected to be involved or that were associated with Costello who was a member of AWB, and if they were men, if there was no child or a woman, they would be attacked.

MR SMUTS: So was there an express agreement that if there were children in the party, there would not be an attack?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is what we agreed upon.  Even though we had different views, some of us thought that we should attack anyone, but we then decided that if we were retaliating, we should not hit or attack children and women.

MR SMUTS: The question was put to Mr Maxhayi whether if there were women and children, they too were appropriate targets, and his response was that if it would send the appropriate message, then they would be appropriate targets.  Are you saying there was agreement to the contrary?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: You disagree then with the position as stated by Mr Maxhayi?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I wouldn't say I disagree with him, because if there were women there, and we saw that we could attack them, we would sit down and discuss this.
	If there were valid reasons that we should attack them, even though they were women, maybe we would have agreed on that.

MR SMUTS: How were you to identify whether the people that you found, if you found them, were associated with Mr Costello to the extent that they fell within the target group?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: First of all, we had hearsay information that Costello was associated with whites in Mbande.  What we were to check was whether the whites were in that coastal area in Mbande, there were no other whites in other coastal areas.
	If we found concrete evidence or if we found out that they were associated with Costello who was a member of the AWB, for example, when we were told that they went to Mdakeni, that surprised us because we thought that why would they go to Mdakeni to fish, why didn't they fish in Mbande, where they were staying and they were in that area, Mbande, the area that we heard this information about.
	The area Mdakeni, we also heard information about that area.  Those things were not concrete evidence, but our suspicions, they raised our suspicions.

MR SMUTS: These people whom Mr Costello according to your hearsay information, would have been meeting at Mbande, did they live there?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We found out that they were sleeping there.  They went to Mbande for fishing and then they would go back and sleep there.

MR SMUTS: They slept where when you say they slept there?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: In Mbande.

MR SMUTS: That is why I am asking you, was it your information that they were living at Mbande?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR SMUTS: They were not holiday makers, they were residents?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: They were not resident, they were visiting.

MR SMUTS: Well, when was it your information, had Mr Costello held these meetings at Mbande?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: In 1992, I am not sure about the month, but it was towards the end, it was after June in 1992, when we got this information.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it only one meeting, or a series of meetings, or what is the position?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: There were a lot of meetings, it was not only one meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is directed at that, your information that you received, can you give us an idea of how often such meetings would be held at the coast?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We didn't get a clear information of how many meetings, but the people from those villages didn't come once to report about these meetings.  I wouldn't be sure, I don't remember getting such an information explaining how many times they had those meetings.

MR SMUTS: Why do you refer to them as meetings?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: It is because they did not report in our office only once, about such meetings.

MR SMUTS: Did you have any reason to believe that they were not social gatherings?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: I wouldn't say we suspected that there were just, we didn't suspect that they were social gatherings, but we heard that Costello says that he is a member of the AWB and I also saw a person coming from his house, saying that he was a member of the AWB.
	Even if it was a religious meeting, because I was not there, I would assume that it was not a religious meeting, because we knew about Costello's actions or movements.

MR SMUTS: Your information regarding meetings at the coast, came to you in 1992?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: The attack on your victims took place on the 13th of April 1993, during a holiday season?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: When you went to reconnoitre the camp, what efforts did you make to discover whether the people whom you were about to attack, had even been in the area in 1992 when these meetings were held?