Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-18

MR KNIPE: Mr Chairman quite honestly I can't recall - I  think it was still pretty volatile in the Western Cape - I think that would be fair that the situation was volatile.

ADV POTGIETER: Now would it be - would it be fair to suggest that the situation was such that it was felt that the police were not in control of the situation in the Western Cape as a result of the extend of this sort of incident etcetera.

MR KNIPE: Of what incident?

ADV POTGIETER: Incidents - incidences of this nature that I have referred to - unrest - attacks on the police - attacks on structures that represent official power, that sort of thing - official authority.

MR KNIPE: Mr Potgieter without being flipped I think that most people would have precede we were in better control then than we are now.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja well that's a - that's a relative - that's a relative concept.

MR KNIPE: Well that's an answer to your question.

ADV POTGIETER: But I am asking you about that - about that stage and the - I am asking you to respond to what I am putting to you.

MR KNIPE: I am responding to what you are putting to me.

ADV POTGIETER: Are you suggesting that the police were - there was no basis for a suggestion that the police were not in control of the situation in the Western Cape?

MR KNIPE: I do not believe that we didn't have control over the situation - no.  I don't believe - its a relative concept - I think it depends where you live, there are many factors when one makes such a statement that should be taken into consideration. 
 It is possible that in of the under privileged areas that our control was not as affective as what it was in say Claremont and Wynberg - it's a relative concept.

ADV POTGIETER: Now to be more specific on that on the townships particularly - so-called black areas.

MR KNIPE: I think - I think those were difficult years  in the townships, as I said they were volatile years.

ADV POTGIETER: And wasn't it so that there was a view that there had to be outside assistance, outside of this particular part of the country.

MR KNIPE: If that was a view - it was not a view that was known to me.  I do believe that at certain stages the assistance of the Military had been called in - I cannot recall if that had happened in '86.  But there were many occasions that the situations were so  serious in the townships that the assistance of the Defence Force has been called in - however cannot be specific to  '86 - I simply cannot remember.

ADV NTSEBEZA: If I can enter here  - is it not so to your own recollection that as a consequence of the unrest situation - the Government of the day had even declared a State of Emergency.

MR KNIPE: Mr Chairman I have difficulty with remembering States of Emergency etcetera.  I am a criminal investigator - I was not a fey with political investigations.  It could have been - there could have been state of Emergency in '86 I simply cannot recall.  It didn't make my work any easier or anymore difficult.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I see - advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson - let me ask you this, was there not concern amongst the higher echelons of the police about the situation in the Western Cape in the townships - in the black areas?  And the view that something has to be done in order to put an end to what was regarded as an unacceptable unrest situation and so forth, particularly also with attacks on the police?
 Was there no pressure from the Commissioners office for example - the Minister's office.

MR KNIPE: That might be - I was a captain at that stage I would be able to answer  that question more fully today with the seniority that I have now, but then I was a Captain - those were not sort of things that was discussed with Captains.

ADV POTGIETER: Even - even if you are part of the command structure of Murder and Robbery which is a key unit.

MR KNIPE: It was a key unit dealing with criminality.

ADV POTGIETER: Well were you not part of the sort of - the total plan to fight lawlessness in the Western Cape or did you leave that to other - other colleagues to do?

MR KNIPE: Murder and Robbery had a predetermined manifested and they investigated in accordance with that, unless instructed otherwise by top brass.  We had a defined mandate and that was a pretty restrictive mandate, it was actually a mandate which was quite sickening in the old days - we would only investigate murders where the victims were white.  Those were the sort of mandates we had at a stage.
 So that was what you - you were doing you would - you would investigate where the victim was white.

MR KNIPE: At one stage yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you do that yourself?

MR KNIPE: Yes and I agitated that, that instruction be changed.

ADV POTGIETER: Let me be a bit more specific have you ever been present at a function at Robben Island.

MR KNIPE: I've never been to Robben Island.

ADV POTGIETER: Where - you've never been.

MR KNIPE: Never been to Robben Island - no hang on I think when I was a boy scout - I think before Robben Island was a prison - many-many years ago.

ADV POTGIETER: You've never been to Robben Island during your career as a police person.

MR KNIPE: Never.

ADV POTGIETER: Were you aware of the involvement of colleagues from Vlakplaas in the Western Cape during the '80's?

MR KNIPE: I cannot tell the Commission honestly when I became aware of Vlakplaas.  If it was prior to '86 - after '86 I cannot recall.  I honestly cannot recall.

ADV POTGIETER: Can you recall how you became aware of Vlakplaas?

MR KNIPE: I also can't recall - I don't know if it arose during this investigation, or it arose in casual conversation.  I have never to the best of my knowledge worked with anyone that's been attached to Vlakplaas.  But obviously in any organisation there is talk and I have heard of Vlakplaas and in the last few years one has heard much more of Vlakplaas.

ADV POTGIETER: What was it that you heard about Vlakplaas?

MR KNIPE: That there was this farm where they had turned ANC terrorist which had now joined the Police Force and they were used for gathering of information and covert operations etcetera - etcetera.

ADV POTGIETER: And you - you say you can't recall whether that knowledge came to your - or that information came to you prior or subsequent to this incident.

MR KNIPE: I can't remember when - when the story of Vlakplaas was first brought to my attention when I first heard of it no.

ADV POTGIETER: Or - or in fact during this incident.

MR KNIPE: It might even have been during this incident it's possible yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Now you have done some investigations around this incident.

MR KNIPE: Limited.

ADV POTGIETER: In the course of those investigations - would it have come to your knowledge that Vlakplaas was involved or there was a Vlakplaas involvement in this incident.

MR KNIPE: Again very difficult to answer that question.   I can recall meeting a chap called Bellingham on the scene of the crime that day or the scene of the shooting correction - the scene of the shooting that day.  I found the man a bit up noxious  and I remember asking where does he fit into the picture, where does he come from.
 Now whether he was told he is from Vlakplaas or C-10 or whatever it is,  and Mr Chairman you must - you must please understand that I was never really interested in that part of policing.  But whether he had come from Pretoria with Askari's - and I think that's the first time that I heard of so-called Askari's too.  I had very little knowledge of those things.

ADV POTGIETER: But wouldn't that have been something of note  for you as a person who has done some limited investigations as you put it into this incident?