Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you also concede that Mr Sawuti could have been killed because you didn't know what was happening inside the hall, you didn't know what was the plan to bring them, could have been killed or whatever, something could have happened to him inside the hall?

XOLINI TYALI: He would not be killed because he was not alone.
Not unless something else would be directed to him as an individual, but he was safe in the hall because the security was tight.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you also concede that when Mr Sawuti was fetched, already Brig Gqozo had announced his resignation?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes I heard that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you also concede that the act of fetching Mr Sawuti and keeping him as a hostage, was a criminal act which had nothing to do with politics?

XOLINI TYALI: Capt Sawuti, we did not fetch him forcefully, if there is anything that implies that, I apologise for that, but we took him nicely and we were even chatting in the car, there was no problem, even today we still chat nicely with him.  If he thought that we took him in a rough manner or we manhandled him, I apologise for that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: My instructions are to the contrary, Mr Chairman.   My instructions are that from his home in front of his children you humiliated him by saying he's a thief and he has misappropriated funds and then you manhandled him into the car pointed with firearms, up to the stage where he was taken into the hall wherein, inside the hall he was asked about money and to state his c v and all that.  Now, I am instructed that you are not disclosing the truth before the Commission.  What are you saying to that?

XOLINI TYALI: That is why I am saying if he says that we acted in that manner, I would like to apologise for that, but all I can remember is that we requested his firearm while in the car, we did not disarm him in his house.  When we were in the car we requested for his firearm and there was no wrestling and we never humiliated him in front of his children.  If he says we did that I am so sorry.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Sir, is it not correct that when you left the hall to fetch Mr Sawuti, already there were some officers who were in the hall who were being humiliated by other junior officers?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, people would be questioned about allegations about funds, people would be told to answer or respond whatever they know about the monies.  Perhaps that person would mention someone else's name and they would ask anyone who has got the car to go and fetch that particular person to come and answer for himself.  That was what was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that when you left the premises of the hall to fetch Mr Sawuti you were in a very joyous mood because it was your turn as junior officers to question them?  You were excited about it.

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct, because the situation that the police were in on that particular day, they were a bit rough, they were angry or rather rough because they had complained and at the same time they wanted to remove Brig Gqozo, the most important thing was to remove Brig Gqozo from what I saw, because I have never seen the police singing and ululating freedom songs in the government building.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that when you arrived at Mr Sawuti's house you wanted to show him that although he is a senior officer, you were above him on that day?

XOLINI TYALI: I can say yes because if he refused to go with us on that particular time we were going to force him to go with us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would you then agree with me that your answers are consistent with what he is saying that you forcefully removed him from his house against his will?

XOLINI TYALI: Although we were not prepared to leave him behind if there was some resistance, but on that particular time he was willing, he went back to the house to dress up and we went back to the car.  If he said we manhandled him I apologise for that because I don't remember seeing that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now other than Mr Sawuti, who else did you fetch?  That is who else were you, personally, involved when he was fetched?

XOLINI TYALI: The other person that we went to fetch was a certain brigadier who was staying in some rural area, Brig Kondo, the one that we went to fetch at his house.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who else?

XOLINI TYALI: The other one that we looked for and we couldn't find him was Brig Suys.  He was not in his house.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that when you fetched these people, you realised then that what you were doing was unlawful.  As a result, subsequently you decided to ask for amnesty?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that you decided to ask for amnesty irrespective of whether what you were doing was political or not?  Your criteria has not been that it was political.

XOLINI TYALI: I disagree with you if you say it was not political because I've already said that the main aim was to remove Brig Gqozo, so we would hold some senior officers so that Gqozo could go down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At that stage you did not know that that was the plan, you yourself, I'm talking about you as an individual.  You did not know that the plan was to take the senior officers so that Brig Gqozo can step down.

XOLINI TYALI: That is why I say I got that information of Gqozo's removal just before we could go to Capt Sawuti's place and Brig Kondo.  As we were on our way to their homes, we knew at the time that the aim was to remove Brig Gqozo, but those were the other issues that came about.  The issues of money squandering.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But when you went to fetch Sawuti and others, Brig Gqozo had already resigned.  Hence I'm saying you knew at that time what you were doing was unlawful and just a criminal act.

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, I heard that he had resigned, but that's a rumour that I got but someone announced that, someone attached to the mike that someone should go and fetch this Serg Sawuti because he was also implicated.

MR NOMPOZOLO: As a policeman then and now, you knew and you know even now that if you associate yourself with a criminal act then you have to suffer the consequences,

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct.  That is why I am here today to ask for amnesty.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you went to the hall on the 22nd and when you left the hall on the 23rd you did not have - you were not politically aligned to any political organisation.  Am I correct?

XOLINI TYALI: I can say that is not true because at the time I was already a Popcru member.  Popcru that is a Cosatu affiliate under the umbrella of the ANC.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Anyway, when you were fetching Capt Sawuti and others, you were not sent by Popcru to do so, not so?

XOLINI TYALI: The people who were in front, people like Serg Nkwenkwe, Peteni and Mfene, I knew that they were Popcru members and even when this was happening it was apparent that this was the action that was taken by the members of the organisation, so I disagree with you when you say that I was not sent by Popcru to go and fetch Capt Sawuti, and even the freedom songs that were sung there, it was obvious to anyone that these people belong to some organisation.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At that stage you could differentiate between which is political and something which is not political.

XOLINI TYALI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR NOMPOZOLO: On the 22nd and the 23rd of March 1994 you could differentiate between what is political and what is not political?

XOLINI TYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And anybody who had stolen money, that is not political, it has never been political.  It is just a criminal act.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean, the perpetrator?

MR NOMPOZOLO: The perpetrator yes.  Let's put it like this Mr Chairman, like Mr Sawuti, the fact that there was an allegation that he has stolen money, that was not political.