Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja I am taking it on the basis that you are giving it.  You have concluded on your own, on the basis of that construction that it is conceivable that the person who later died and who had a green shirt was Shaun Magmoed, and it is conceivable that it was you who killed him.  Now I am taking it on your own construction and on that basis, how many times did you shoot at that person, in the direction of that person?  Seven times, as you said, I remember that you said that you shot seven times?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I fired seven shots in the direction of where Shaun Magmoed was.  I don't know whether I hit him with any of those shots.  I got no indication from his bodily movements whether I had actually hit him or not.

MR NTSEBEZA: When you came to know that the person answering the description in terms of clothes of a person whose direction you had fired your shots had died, did you establish the cause of death of Shaun Magmoed?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No I didn't.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you not care to establish the cause of his death?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Could you repeat the question please?

MR NTSEBEZA: Did it not matter to you how that person had died?  You have just told us that the person in whose direction you had shot and who had died was a person who you could have killed, did it not matter to you to know how he had died?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Three people died on the scene.  When Shaun Magmoed was carried out of the house I was still on the truck.  I didn't get down from the truck for whatever reasons and I think that at that stage we were giving feedback about this incident.  What I did do was to stay behind at Athlone Police Station to answer any queries from family or friends.  But no I didn't ascertain what he died of.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you saying to date a person who you believe, as you stand there, as you sit there, you might have been responsible for killing, you didn't care to establish how he died, is that what you are saying or am I missing something?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No that's not what I am saying.

MR NTSEBEZA: What are you saying?  Do you know how Shaun Magmoed died?

DOUW VERMEULEN: The people taken away in ambulances from the house had bullet wounds.  At that stage I didn't make enquiries as to what had happened to each one of them for whatever reasons.  The notary went around to the people and he wrote down particulars and in my particulars he fed through this information.  So at that stage I would have known that the person had suffered bullet wounds but I didn't physically get down from the truck and go to the ambulance because I was staying behind on the vehicle also to protect it.

MR NTSEBEZA: I understood that but what I am asking you have you ever found out at any day after that how this person you could have been responsible for his death, died?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Not as far as I can recall.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you know that he was 16 years of age?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I heard that afterwards, yes.  I thought he was about 22 years old.

MR NTSEBEZA: But did you hear that he was 16?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Yes I heard that afterwards.

MR NTSEBEZA: And still you didn't bother to go and find out in what way he had died, just as a matter of fact, I am not accusing you of anything, I am just asking.   You didn't go and find out how this 16 year-old person, you could have been responsible for his death had died?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No I didn't.  It happened 12 years ago and I am assuming that I just came to the conclusion that he died of his bullet wounds or whatever.  I just heard that he had died but I can't recall whether I had any more specific information.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you establish from any inquest records, if there were any, how he had died, whether those inquest records were by way of tape or by way of photographs or by way of doctors' reports?  I want to take the view that you would like us to take home with that this is a matter that has troubled you over the last while and I would like to believe you, and I would like to therefore, which is why I am asking these questions, have you established from any inquest records which would have been at your disposal as a police person, what sort of bullet wounds occasioned the death of Shaun Magmoed?

DOUW VERMEULEN: You are mentioning doctors' certificates and reports and so forth, I didn't check up on any of those.  I did testify at the inquest and I think that took place about 10 or 11 years ago.  I know that there was a lot of debate on the various kinds of wounds and the interpretations to be attached to those different kinds of wounds, but if you ask me today I can do no more than to say, yes, I know that he died of bullet wounds.  I can't tell you how many or type or anything like that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Didn't you want to know what sort of wounds had occasioned his death?  Did you not enquire because you didn't want to know?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No, I don't know why I didn't ask.  Perhaps because you heard about these things in case after case after case through the whole legal procedure of trial upon trial and Appellate Division case.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would it be because part of the debate was around the question of suggestions from his wounds that he was shot at the back?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No, no I never shot at him or in his direction whilst his back was turned to me.

MR NTSEBEZA: I'm not asking that.  I am asking whether your reason that you have never wanted to find out what the inquest records are saying about his death is because, as you say, there was a lot of debate about the manner in which the wounds were occasioned and part of the debate was a suggestion that some of the wounds were inflicted on his back?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No that is not the case.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you know in fact if there was a suggestion that some of his wounds were predominantly posteriorly?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I am not sure but I think in one of the cases mention was made of that fact and - or I think what was said was that there were bullet wounds on the back of his body, on the right-hand side of the back of his body, but I stand to be corrected.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, let's take those, how would those have come to be there, at the back of his body?  They certainly wouldn't have come from bullets inflicted from the front would they?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I can't answer that.  What I can recall is that when I shot in his direction he was looking at me.  I am also not the only person who shot in the right-hand direction.  I think somebody just now said that his positional placing was different to what I mentioned today.  Perhaps one of the other members who was present there and who also were on the right-hand side of the truck could perhaps throw more light on this.  But I know that I never shot at him whilst his back was turned to me.

MR NTSEBEZA: How do you know that?

DOUW VERMEULEN: That is from what I can remember of that day.  From what I can recall of that day I simply can't get a picture of him with his back towards me.  After I had fired my seven shots the people started dispersing, they stopped throwing stones.

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you saying, were you firing your shots in rapid succession?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I think I was the first person who stopped shooting.

MR NTSEBEZA: Seven shots in rapid succession, didn't your evidence suggest that you stopped only because you had emptied your revolver or whatever, your firearm?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Perhaps I reloaded.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Anyway let's do something else.  You seem to suggest in your statement that before you left Manenberg Police Station, in fact I think you were much more clear and positive than your commander as to state the state of affairs at that stage, do you confirm that you were aware, even as you left Manenberg that there were flash-points of unrest in Athlone, namely Thornton Road and Belgravia Road, is that your evidence?  The focal points of the trouble.