Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-14

CHAIRPERSON: We're now in session.  Mr Mapoma, which matter are we starting off with?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, we're starting with the matter of Shakespeare Buthelezi, application number 1488/96.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  For the purposes of the record, today is Monday the 14th of September 1998.  This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee in the matter of the application of Shakespeare Buthelezi, case number 1488/96.  The panel consist of myself, Denzil Potgieter.  I'm assisted by Advocate Sigodi and Mr Lax.  Mr Mapoma, would you place yourself on record, and then Mr Mbandazayo.  Shall we start with you, Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, sir.  My name is Zuko Mapoma.  I'm the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo.  I'm representing the applicant in this matter.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Mapoma, is there anything that perhaps I should - I should perhaps just explain the headsets for the purposes of the public.  I've got a note that there are four channels in four languages.  I assume that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS CHANNELS FOR TRANSLATION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there anything else that you need to put on record before we proceed to listen to the application?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, for the record, in relation to this application, the deceased's wife, Mrs Mashamahite has been notified of her right to attend the hearing.  She is here in response to that notice and her view is that she wants to oppose the application on the ground that the act for which amnesty is sought here was not an act associated with political motivation as expressed in the Act in terms of which the Amnesty Committee functions.  That is her view and to that extent, Chairperson, in my capacity as Leader of Evidence, I'll take care of her interest to the extent that she may have to be represented.
	Another person who has been notified, Chairperson, is Mr Basie Hlali - Hladi I mean, who was a victim in the incident of attempted murder by the applicant.  Unfortunately, Chairperson, we have not managed to get hold of Mr Hladi.  Our attempts to investigate his whereabouts have drawn a complete blank, but we did notify him through the media of this hearing.  He's not here unfortunately.  That is the position, Chair.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, you say that he was notified through the media.  Can you just give us some more detail about that.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, we asked our media liaison officer to arrange that it be announced in the radio and that has been done, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you satisfied that all the reasonable steps that could be taken to give the notification have been done.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, sir, that is my position.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you asking that we proceed on the basis that there was due notification and that there is no response?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And then just one other thing, Mr Mapoma, the wife of the deceased, how does she intend to deal with her opposition?  Has she approached you to give assistance or on what basis would she be dealing with the intended opposition?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, sir, she has asked me to assist him in opposing the application and she has indicated that she at this moment does not intend to testify, but if the development of the hearing demands that she testify then she may want to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: You are ready and able to give that assistance?  You have consulted with her?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I've consulted with her.  I'm ready to assist her.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I assume that is all that you want to put on record.

MR MAPOMA: That is all, sir, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, it's over to you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, at this stage I would like just for the record to tell the Committee that the affidavits which are before the Committee are not signed affidavits.  I only have one original which is a signed affidavit and which will be handed over to the Committee when we have photostatting facilities unfortunately, because they were signed this morning, the original.  Then it will be handed over then after the hearing to be part of the record, the signed one.  Those before the Committee are not signed one.  The signed one is here, the original which we are going to use to lead evidence, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And what we have are photocopies of the one that has been signed in the meantime.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, what you have is the photocopy of the unsigned affidavit, Mr Chairman.  The signed one is the only one which is signed, is the original, Mr Chairman.  They were submitted to the Committee before he signed them because he's here in Johannesburg.  I'm in East London, so I couldn't - I obtained the affidavit, I couldn't come back for him to sign.  He signed them this morning.  So, we'll make copies, Mr Chairman, after this hearing and the original be handed over to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly.  What we have it's the very same thing but it's just not signed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, it's the same affidavit but it's not signed, the one you have.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, no, I don't think there's any problem with that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Then, Mr Chairman, I would like the applicant to be sworn in, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.  Mr Lax, would you do that?

MR LAX: Mr Buthelezi, do you have any objection to taking an oath?  What language will he be ... (intervention)

INTERPRETER: Zulu.

MR LAX: Zulu.

INTERPRETER: That's three.

MR LAX: Channel three.  Can you hear me now?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Oh yes, thanks.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: (sworn states)

MR LAX: Sworn in, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax.  Over to you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Buthelezi, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee.  Do you confirm that the affidavit which is before the Committee was made by you, and you also abide by it's contents?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, without wasting time of this Committee, I won't  deal with the whole contents of the affidavit, but what I would like is to go paragraph 11 of the affidavit unless the Committee wants to raise anything before that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.  Please do proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Buthelezi, paragraph 11 of the affidavit, where you indicate that Gift saw the informer at Twala Section and you went there and you gave him another gun, Tokaroff pistol and you used the 9mm which you took from the late Mashamahite ... (intervention)

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry, Chairperson.  Chairperson, I wish to make a request, sir, here that the affidavit, as it is, either be read into the record or at least he leads him into the contents as they are.  I mean even those contents which are a background contents because for the benefit of the victims, the family, they don't have the affidavit before them and perhaps they would want to hear the background of the applicant and all that.  I believe, sir, it may to a certain extent assist the victims family into understanding who the applicant is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't want to prescribe to Mr Mbandazayo how he should be presenting the case, but you've heard Mr Mapoma's point.  Of course Mr Mapoma himself can also come back to the affidavit.  So, I don't want to prescribe to you how you want to deal with it, but there is that request.  It's entirely up to you how you want to approach the matter.  I'm leaving it to you really.