Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

MR P DU PLESSIS: You understood it in terms of influence to protect you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now let us get to the events you apply for amnesty for.  Did you establish your own blue plan?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes Chairman, I found a company for myself and established a blue plan.

MR P DU PLESSIS: What was that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I established a small security company.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Under which name?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Under the name Staal Burger & Associates.

MR P DU PLESSIS: At that stage, in the eyes of the public, you resigned at Matthysen Bus Transport, you didn't work there any more?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That was after the Matthysen Bus Transport period.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So for the rest of your colleagues, who were involved at Brixton Murder and Robbery, they were told that you had left Matthysen Bus and now you had your own security company?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And that was your blue plan?  From where did you operate it?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I operated from the Park Lane Hotel in Hillbrow which belonged to Mr Alec Guvuras.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And why did you operate from there, did you have any link with the hotel?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, I was appointed by Mr Guvuras as General Manager of the Park Lane Hotel, but he was informed about the fact that I had my own company and I led my investigations from those offices.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So you had a second employment, that was General Manager of the Park Lane Hotel?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you remunerated?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So it was in the eyes of the public, you had a decent employment?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was Mr Guvuras informed of the fact that you worked for a State structure in the Security Force?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No Chairman.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you also operated your company from the hotel where you were the General Manager?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: For the establishment of the blue plan, did you receive financial assistance from the CCB?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Would it be for the hire of offices, equipment, etc?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And you received such monies?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, I did.

MR P DU PLESSIS: The other members were also established during this period and they established their blue plans?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr du Plessis, just one little question, did the CCB and in particular Mr Verster or your General, know about the fact that you also had other employment in the hotel?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: As a General Manager?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that permitted?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand setting up a company as a cover, which was part of your operation, but having a second, conventional, job, is strictly against code conduct, isn't it?  I never knew a member of the Army or the Military ...

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, it was discussed with Mr Joe Verster and he had no problem with that.  I think some members here are aware of the fact that Mr Guvuras is a well known figure in Johannesburg.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You can tell us in which, why?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: He is known as somebody who is involved in drugs and such substances, but I don't know if he had  been found guilty, but he had many contacts with the underworld.  We made use of this opportunity to make contacts in this underworld of Mr Guvuras.

MR P DU PLESSIS: All right.  At this point, if you could explain to us the whole situation around your establishment in the CCB and the fact that the internal Region 6 became operational.  Was that a short term, urgent situation, was it a long term situation, or how were you briefed?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Chairperson, the impression I get here as applicant, is that we are in the year 2000, excuse me, Mr Lax also mentioned ...

CHAIRPERSON: That is a correct impression.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: And we are busy to delve into the 1980's and our actions in that period, and the context have changed quite a bit since then.
	I am now like Mr Bizos yesterday, I just want to ask, what was the question?

MR P DU PLESSIS: I ask about the vision around Region 6, was it long term or short term?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: In contrast with the impression I got here, is that CCB Region 6, and my impressions and information to my members, was that we had to establish an acceptable cover, the so-called blue plan, and members who were involved with the Forces for years, to go out and to create the impression with all the other Security Branches involved  in the country at that time, that we had no link to any information or intelligence community externally that requires a lot of conviction and credibility.  And that was a long term project, because if you were identified, that it was a bluff, that this was just a scam, then you were in danger of losing your job because you would compromise your whole organisation.
	So we spent a lot of time on that, more than you think or believe.   It was very important to us.  Covert does not mean - covert actions, maximum disruptions, all these ugly words of the old war regime sound harsh in your ears, but in our context, in the 1980's, it was the normal words we used.
	In that capacity, we acted and established our blue plans.  We were not expected to operate within six or seven months, as we explain here today.

MR P DU PLESSIS: At that stage you also did not have the vision, that the circumstances in the land would change dramatically after launching the Region 6 operation?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I did not.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Let's continue.  The blue plans are established, you worked on it at the beginning of 1989.  Did you pay any attention to the so-called red plans, i.e. the functions and actions within the CCB?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And in that context, did you have contact with the Managing Director Mr Joe Verster, and the Co-ordinator, Mr Britz, alias Wouter Basson?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Could you shortly tell us about what led to the activation of Region 6 at the beginning of 1989 and what led to the projects around Mr Dullah Omar and Mr Gavin Evans?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: At one of the meetings with Mr Joe Verster, the Co-ordinator, Mr Basson, had the order to, at the intelligence structure of the CCB, to get information from them, and to convey it to Region 6 which focused internally and, so that we could get aid from them, to move into a certain direction.

MR P DU PLESSIS: That would mean information that you could work from?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Persons you could pay attention to?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You talk about the Co-ordinator that had to do that at the intelligence section.  They told you that there was such an Intelligence Centre and that you could use these services?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you have any direct access to such an intelligence structure?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Chairman, I think to explain more clearly, I was a known figure because of Brixton Murder and Robbery, I had a high profile.  It was difficult to be involved in a covert operation at CCB and to pretend that I was somebody else.
	Because of that, those reasons, Mr Verster thought it was good not to allow me to the meetings of the Regional Managers, and not to allow me to physically pay a visit to any administrative and intelligence structures of the CCB.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So he did not allow you in the inner circle, you were not involved in the inner circle?