Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

CHAIRPERSON: And how were you going to fight?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: There was no other way.  The people that were stipulated as blocks in the freedom of the people, those were the people I had to get.  I had to kill them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they going to go and fight the Nationalist Government with toothpicks?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: (No English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Then how were they going to fight?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I was given a mandate, that I had to make a way to train self-defence unit members.  As I had trained them I had to see how I gave them arms.  The manner that it was given was pretty open.  I had to make sure that the self-defence unit was armed.  It was up to me as to how I get those firearms or the money to purchase them.
	Even if I had gone to the ANC and said that I needed money for the arms, I would not be able to get the money.  The ANC lived on solidarity all the time.  I had to go to the boers, get money or find arms from that boer and kill that boer.

MR BLACK: So, as I understand it, part of your mandate, open mandate was did you feel that you were entitled then to commit a robbery in order to get money to buy arms?

MRS VAN DER WALT: I beg your pardon, but I'm going to have to object to this.  It is absolutely a leading question.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Well, she's entitled to object to leading questions.  Now, could you just explain then what you meant at the end of your evidence now, that you felt that you were entitled to go and get money to buy arms and if necessary, to kill the boers?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.  If I was the only one who was armed I would not be able to stop the violence because I was fighting against a lot of people.  I had to perform armed robbery so as to make sure that the self-defence unit was armed.  We did not have money to buy firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, how did you think you were going to get this money to buy the firearms?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: There was no other way but to rob.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think this idea of robbing fell within your mandate?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you perform or commit robberies?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes.

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Gushu, is there anything further you wish to add with relating to Mr Advice Gwala?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Please elaborate on your question.

MR BLACK: No, you've already given some evidence as to how it came about that you killed Mr Advice Gwala.  Is there anything further you wish to add there before we move on to the next matter?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, there is.

MR BLACK: Could you just briefly tell the Committee what it is?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I remember on the fourth (4th) of November 1991 the United Democratic Front or the ANC, as the UDF had disbanded, had a campaign against VAT.  Gwala worked together with the boers to make sure that this VAT continues or be implemented so that the black people continue to be oppressed, especially the poor.
	Gwala therefore worked together with the boers in the oppression of the black person, especially the ANC, Communist Party and COSATU members.  I realised that as Gwala was a member of the Inkatha an UWUSA, he was an obstacle.  I then had to get rid of him.

MR SANDI: Sorry, Mr Black.  This may not be entirely clear.  What exactly did Mr Gwala do in co-operation with what you said with the boers concerning the VAT issue?  What exactly did he do?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Sir, as the ANC and COSATU members were against the implementation of VAT, Mr Gwala supported the Government so that the poor person is oppressed.  They were the people who were against VAT after sales tax had stopped.

MR SANDI: It is still not very clear.  You mean to say that UWUSA took up a campaign in support of the continuation of VAT?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I'm talking about Mr Gwala.  He was working together with the boers around Secunda at the time.  Mr Gwala worked with the Black Chain to intimidate school children, members of the ANC.  I could not allow that to happen.  To me it was the same person, that he was an obstacle in the freedom of the people.

MR BLACK: Thank you.  When you say he used to intimidate school children and that, you know, what we're trying to establish is when you say he worked with the boers, what exactly do you - just give us an example or two, apart from the VAT.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Most of the time Inkatha members, whatever they did, they were sent by the boers so that they are an obstacle in the freedom of the people.  This is why I knew or this is how I knew how Gwala worked.  Everything I did, I did because I was obeying orders.

MR BLACK: Yes, I think you've already testified that you were ordered to kill Mr Gwala by Mr Jabi Mkhwanazi, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Right.  Now, perhaps let's just move on, on page thirty five (35) to paragraph six (6), the death of Mr Chris Ngwenya.  Who was Mr Chris Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He was an assistant to Jwi Zwane.

MR BLACK: Yes, but what role did he play?  I mean was he a member of any political organisation or gang or anything?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: He was a member of the Black Cat.

MR BLACK: And was he just an ordinary member of the Black Cats or did he play any particular role in that community?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: After I had killed Jwi, he was the leader of the Black Cat.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Do you know if he received any military training at all?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I am certain that he was trained as a soldier.  I'm not sure which camp it was though.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you killed Mr Ngwenya.  Did you do it because of an instruction or because you found him a problem yourself?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was instructed.  I killed him under instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR BLACK: So, when you carried out this instruction on Mr Ngwenya, were you acting alone?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: There were two of us.

MR BLACK: Who was the other party?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Mr Nkonyane.

MR BLACK: And he's also one of the applicants, applicant number eight I think?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR BLACK: We've already heard to a large extent there was almost like a war going on in that area between the Black Cats, IFP on the one hand, and the ANC alliance members on the other.  You allege here that or had you heard or do you know whether or not the Black Cats were armed, there had been allegations made that they were armed by the police?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I had knowledge that they were armed because they were killing people in the township.

MR BLACK: Were any police mentioned, names of any police in the community?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, Von Zweel told me.  I also read from the Weekly Mail, a report from the Goldstone Commission.

MR BLACK: Just as a matter of interest.  The Officer van Zyl who is referred to in this paragraph six (6) on page thirty five (35) should be Officer von Zweel apparently.  Z-W-E-E-L.  Now, is there anything further you wish to add about the killings surrounding Mr Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I could try to elaborate as to the injury of the people that he was with.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Then let's move on to paragraph seven (7) and six (6) which appear on page thirty five (35).  That's the death of Lindiwe Nkosi and the death of Thembisile Nkambule.  Could you just - you say you'd like to elaborate a little on their killings.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, if I could please.

MR BLACK: Yes, go ahead, sir.