Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just then ask, in respect of the protection duties you did in the community. Did you join the self-defence units of the ANC or did you operate your own type of protection separately to those of, in fact, either the SDUs, which were the ANC's or the SPUs which was the Inkatha section of the same type of thing. Just explain where you fitted in as Apla?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: We operated separately. Yes, there was an SDU which operated in its own way, but we operated as a unit under the directives of the late Bongani.

ADV GCABASHE: Then, specifically, your political education, political education? Who taught you all of the different policy matters that relate to Apla?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I got political training after 1987, that is after I had become a member of the PAC. This was discussed or politics was discussed in the meetings that I frequented and this went on up to such time that I became involved militarily, that is in 1989 up to my arrest.

ADV GCABASHE: Were specific political classes given or was this just the general discussion of what was going on in the country?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I would not say they were specific political classes per se, but we were discussing politics because there would be documents that we would read, basic documents and we had to know about the policies of the organisation and the needs, etc.

ADV GCABASHE: And who led you in these discussions? Was it Bongani again, or was, or were other people involved in this?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: There were other people who were leading us in these discussions, for example, there were chairpersons, secretaries, deputies. These are the people who were present in those meetings at a political level.

ADV GCABASHE: Is it therefore correct for me to conclude that this was the first operation as an operation that you were involved in? This 1991 one?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct. That was my first operation.

ADV GCABASHE: And do you know if any other members of your task team were involved in any other operation of this nature?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, with regard the incident itself. Can I just go one back. You met the Thursday night with the other members of the task force and there Bongani briefed all of you. I know that you had the information already, but he briefed the group about what was going to happen the following day. Yes?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Did he allocate specific tasks to you that night or exactly, what I really want to know is what did he say?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, he allocated roles to each one of us, for example, I knew that my role would have, would be to drive. Wutosi, that is Edwin Simelane, his role would be to drive the vehicle that we would bring back and the others would have to provide security by making sure that they engage in a fight where necessary.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, did the discussion extend at all to what was going to happen to the money once you had it in your possession? Once you had counted it?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, it was indicated as to how the money was going to be used. The purchase of firearms because we had a shortage thereof and we are not the only ones who had a shortage of these. The cadres who were outside the country, for example, also had this same problem, food, ammunition, etc.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, just, I'm not sure if I've got my dates right, but I know that at some stage, and I would have thought that it was December '92, January '93, Apla decided to cease, to halt the armed struggle. Mr Mbandazayo, you'll tell me if I've got my dates wrong. And word was sent out to all the units that the armed struggle as waged by Apla was to cease.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson, it was '94.

ADV GCABASHE: Was it '93 to '94. Okay, then my question then doesn't apply. Thank you. I was just not sure what my dates there. No, then that question doesn't apply to your circumstances. But a different question relates to your contact with other Apla members outside of the task force group. You are saying that there was nobody else except uMarapapa who you knew could be contacted about what was going on within your organisation.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: People that I used to keep contact with were the members of the unit with which I, in which I operated.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Ngubeni. Thank you, Chair.

MR MALAN: Mr Ngubeni, at the time of the incident it seems you were going on 27 years of age, shortly before your birthday. Is that correct? You were born in '64 on the 30th of September.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes.

MR MALAN: The incident took place on the 20th of September '91.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So you were 10 days short of your 27th birthday.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Were you employed at the time?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No, I was not employed at the time?

MR MALAN: Did you work some time before the incident?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes.

MR MALAN: Where were you then employed?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I worked at different places, at different firms and in the township doing temporary jobs.

MR MALAN: Did you never have any permanent employment?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I don't know how you mean by permanent.

MR MALAN: Well then explain to me what you mean by temporary jobs.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: My understanding of temporary jobs is that you are employed, or should I say, you are told on being hired that this is a temporary job and in some cases you are just employed without being told that the job is temporary, but later on, only to be retrenched.

MR MALAN: Now, were you ever employed without being told that the job is temporary?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes. Several times.

MR MALAN: Now, what was your last employment? Where you were not employed on a temporary basis.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: It was Hubert Davis and another factory that was called City Metal in Wadeville.

MR MALAN: What kind of work did you do there?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: At City Metal I was an operator, a machine operator and at Hubert Davis I was working as a clerk.

MR MALAN: What was the nature of your work at Hubert Davis? What did your job entail?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: My job there involved filing, despatch, stock taking and such things.

MR MALAN: When were you employed at Hubert Davis?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: If I am not mistaken, I think it was 1986. It could have been 1985, '86 if I am not mistaken.

MR MALAN: And at City Metal?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I worked in 1984 from 1983, I think it was 1982 up to 1984, if I am not mistaken. That was my first firm after I had left school.

MR MALAN: Now, where did you live from the period 1987 through 1991?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I stayed at home at No 216 Twala Section.

MR MALAN: Who did you stay with? Was it your home, your parents' home?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I stayed with my parents.

MR MALAN: Are they still living there?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes.

MR MALAN: Were they employed at the time of the incident?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, my father was employed at the time and my mother is doing sewing at home and she is selling those things.

MR MALAN: Did they take care of your needs? Did they give you food, buy you clothes, or did you have any other income?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I was dependent on them as I explained earlier that I sometimes used to get temporary jobs in the township. I would drive taxis on occasions, taxis on occasions.

MR MALAN: Now, do we understand you correctly that the incident for which you're serving term now, was the only operation that you were involved in?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did Bongani ever, on any occasion, make a contribution, financial contribution, to the expenses or living expenses of the members of the unit?