Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think it is a fair, it is the same type of question which was asked in respect of Mr Memani's client this morning and he said well this is going to touch on my client's privilege and the like and we told him this is just a perfectly normal question to be asked.
	A client, your client may have an explanation as to that, but the point on which you don't want Mr Memani to ask these questions, is a very important one, Mr Stander.
	It is specifically in respect of these very two things.  He is not asking him why was it not put to my client that the assault took place on a Wednesday or a Tuesday, why was it not put to my client that it was a rainy day.  It is on a very particular and specific and very important point in my view.
	It is on the point who assaulted you and Mr Memani is saying to your client that if Mr Motsamai did assault you in Tereblanche's office as well, why was it not put to him that he did so and I don't see what problems you have about that?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I am hearing what you are saying.  What I am trying to say at no stage it was denied that my client had been assaulted.  I put it in very broad terms.
	He had been assaulted there and I think my friend has it wrong when he says why wasn't it ever stated that he was assaulted in Tereblanche's office because it was said that he was said that he was assaulted in the whole building.  My friend, the way he puts his question is that it should have been put to him that he had to be in every particular office, where it was not the case.
	But the statement was broad enough to include being in Tereblanche's office.  If you are telling me that my objection is unjustified, then I will leave it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Makhubalo, when Mr Motsamai testified he told us that he took part in your assault, in assaulting you in the office of Mr Mamome and he demonstrated to us more or less the same way that you did, that you were handcuffed with your hands behind your chair and so on.
	But he did not tell us that, he never told us that he also took part in assaulting you in Tereblanche's office.  You were here and you never heard him mention that, am I right?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is true.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now what Mr Memani is putting to you is that it was never -  Mr Motsamai was never challenged.  It was never put to him that look here, not only did you assault Mr Makhubalo in Mamome's office, you also assaulted him in Tereblanche's office.  Do you have any comment on that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: There is nothing I can say, sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: I am indebted and may I assure Mr Stander that I am not making a personal attack on him, but that I am dealing with the credibility of a witness.
	Now, Mr Makhubalo, this thing happened more than 10 years ago.  Is that correct?  In fact it is close to 20 years ago?

CHAIRPERSON: 20 years ago?

ADV DE JAGER: It is round about 10 years ago.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should check on your arithmetic Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Makhubalo, isn't there a possibility that you are mistaken about the presence of Mr Motsamai when you were assaulted for the second time by a group of people in Tereblanche's office?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It may happen that you are mistaken, but if you know a person, you know, so I have no doubt that I know Mr Motsamai.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, what I am suggesting to you is that you were a political activist and there were many occasions where you would have met Mr Motsamai and due to the length of time, you might err about his actual presence when you were assaulted in Tereblanche's office.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is not so.

ADV MEMANI: You see, what I find difficult is that Mr Motsamai would admit to having assaulted you on the fifth floor and not admit having assaulted you on the fourth floor.  What would be there for him to hide, he has already admitted he assaulted you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I don't know, truly.

ADV MEMANI: Furthermore, he admits having done what I see as being more serious than the assault that took place at the office of Mr Tereblanche, the shooting of you apparently without any lawful reason to do so.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You don't know why he would deny it if he was there, do you?  You have said you don't know?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: After you were arrested, after the attempt to shoot you, you were taken to Fountain Building.  Did any interrogation take place there?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: No sir.

ADV MEMANI: So you were just chased, they attempted shooting you and then detained?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, may I ask my Attorney if he's got something that he would like me to cover?  I have no more questions, My Lord.

ADV MEMANI: .

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any point in you starting now, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: I am hoping that you would say there isn't, Mr Chairman, because I would like to adjourn now, if we may.

CHAIRPERSON: It is now five to four, I think we will take the adjournment now until nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
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