Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR NTONGA: Sorry, Mr Chairman, my mike was off.  Let me leave that for the time being.
	If you read paragraph five of the same statement that is "after the shooting of a security guard, I then realised that more shooting took place before this culprit took over and as a result two policemen were already injured but I have in mind that the other policeman was shot by the culprit who was the last to go."  Will my interpretation be correct if I say that when they reappeared from where they've gone to with these guns, on their way out the shot a security policeman and two policemen?  I you don't follow say so, I'm not saying I'm correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Are you saying they again shot a security guard?  I say a security guard was shot only once, he was not shot again.

MR NTONGA: ...[inaudible] correct of paragraph four and five that when they reappeared on their way they shot a security guard plus two policemen?  These are correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is not so.

MR NTONGA: Okay.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Mr Ntonga, it's clear from the documentation that the deceased was shot twice, that the post mortem makes clear.  But the precise order in which it happened is a bit confused so maybe that's what you can follow up if you need to.

MR NTONGA: From the statement I agree that there was a shooting when there was an entering but when they reappeared established a description of all the shooting thereafter.
	My question, is it right in the application to say there was a first shooting when they entered the door and they reappeared on when they reappeared then carrying suitcases that's after the taking of the money then they shot the security and two policemen.  Will this be correct interpretation?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I think again shot two policemen, I did not know that because I was only shot once, I was not shot twice.

MR NTONGA: So this, what is contained here will not be the right sequence?  Three men were injured, okay, but the sequence that is in this statement is not like what you have said?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I am only testifying to what I saw happening there.

MR NTONGA: You were asked by my learned friend whether  you heard any people asking people to lie down and you said not here that before you were shot, remember?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is true.

MR NTONGA: And in the statement of Kwadiso he was also told to lie down even before they entered the auditorium on the steps.  I assume you were not near enough to hear that?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Before they entered the auditorium.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Ntonga, the steps are inside the auditorium.  No, the steps lead to the office where they were counting the money and where the registration was happening but it's inside the big auditorium.

MR NTONGA: When you went past the lady and the gentleman, whoever followed you or went the same way will go past them into where you were and where you were shot?  Is that correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I cannot understand you.

MR NTONGA: Did you see the lady and the gentleman on the way to where you were shot, the steps that I'm talking about, were they leading to where you were shot, where you were standing with the security asking for directions?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I saw these two people they were next to us.  They were apart from us and they were at the other side.

MR NTONGA: Could you hear, what they were talking about or could you or perhaps, they were near enough for you to hear when they'd been ordered to lie down?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: If that was said I'm sure I would have heard.
ADV. GCABASHE: Sorry, if I might just intervene here, how far were Wadiso and the young lady from you distance wise?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: They were about where Mr Ntonga is sitting.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Four to five paces?

MR NTONGA: And is that the reason why you say you could have heard if they were ordered to lie down as he states in his statement because of the space in between you and them?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: These people passed us, when they got to us they did not say we must lie down they simply shot at us I did not hear anything saying we must lie down.

MR NTONGA: I think you missed my question.  I'm talking about Kwadiso and the lady whether at that distance could you either hear if somebody ordered them to lie down or you were not paying any attention to them, busy trying to get your way and directions from the security?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I would have heard.

MR NTONGA: And the same distance if Kwadiso saw a man carrying two guns surely you also would have seen the man carrying two guns?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is true.

MR NTONGA: Okay.  Lastly on Kwadiso, can I now say with your permission that Kwadiso's sequence of injuries although the number is the same and the definition is the same is not how it happened or if you want me to break down the question say so?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I cannot answer that question.

MR NTONGA: Okay let me put it this way.  In his statement he talks about reappearing carrying suitcases - but excuse me - which held money - and then stopped, telling who did what and how he was shot, that was the first security man, security man was jumping over chairs taking cover and further two other policemen.  What I'm asking you is that, the list of injuries is correct maybe his sequence is not correct?  You agree with me?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I do not know how you put this, I've just told you how I saw this thing.

MR NTONGA: Okay let me put it this way for instance, in your evidence you say that the man next to you was shot and he fell down - that is the security - isn't that so?  The man who died.

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That's what I said from the beginning.

MR NTONGA: And you were also shot and you fell down and lost consciousness, the second shooting now?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That's the same question, that's the same thing I said from the beginning.

MR NTONGA: I'm leading up to your question, I don't want to confuse you.  In Kwadiso's statement that the security was fatally shot, was jumping from cover to cover over chairs, as an experienced policeman the man you saw shot down could not be able to do that after being shot down.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?   He had not examined the injury, he didn't know what the injury was, all he has said is the man standing next him was shot and fell down.  He was then shot and became unconscious.  Why shouldn't the first man have recovered from his injury?

MR NTONGA: ...[inaudible] and if that is the position will number 5 of Kwadiso that thereafter two persons were shot thereafter and also not being in the right sequence, because you were the first person who was shot and another one was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: You see if you'd read on you'd see this man appears to be confused - if you read paragraph five:  "I then realised that more shooting took place before this culprit took over and as a result two policemen were already injured but I have in mind that the other policeman was shot by the culprit who was the last to go because I saw the culprit shooting this policeman who was trying to escape.  The security guard was shot by this culprit, fell down and never moved from the spot as he was later said to be dead."  Now he is here saying that the security guard never moved.  Isn't there a little confusion in all this?

MR NTONGA: I take the point Mr Chairman.
	I would also like to refer you to a statement by one of the people inside the counting room, if one can call it, on the question of whether they were ordered to lie down.  Could the court bear with me, I had this thing marked here.
	That would be Mr Zondile Nchando - it's page 32 at the bottom.  "I know by that time maybe I already passed out and we had our own problems but I want to draw your attention that" he states there that "the said man was unknown to me, ordered all of us to lie down, all of us complied to his instructions."