Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's it Mr Chairman, that's why I'm putting it on record that I thought that he will be able to answer it.  When I asked him, I went through this with him, he gave me a convincing answer which was satisfactory.
	In fact Mr Chairman, though he did not know the target, he knew what he was going to go and do there, that he was going for something though he did not know the place and the persons.  So I didn't see any contradiction Mr Chairman, that's why I left it.  I thought that he will be able to answer it when he was questioned about it.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Any further witnesses?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, no further witness except the one which will be called which will be encompassing almost all the others.  No other witness except the applicants at this stage Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I intend to call at this stage John Manjibani, an eye witness.  Yes, we're going to call the victim at the end, she wasn't on the scene.  I want to deal with all the evidence relating to the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Could he come back, I want to ask him.  Could I just clarify one thing?  I don't know if my fellow Committee members wish to ask anything.
	Am I ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Hello, sorry, can you try and pay attention, we're trying to ask you a question?

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand correctly that his evidence was that he didn't know this area, he wasn't from this area, he didn't know it?

ZAMA THUTHA: Which area specifically?

MR LAX: The area where this thing happened.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Bashe River.

MR LAX: Bridge and all that.

ZAMA THUTHA: No, I did not know the place specifically but my co-accused did mention it.  However, the reason why I knew which place they were talking about is because when Thandekulo came with his car he signalled to me that I would follow him to the place to which he was going.

ADV SANDI: You were from the Umtata area, not this particular area?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not stay in that particular area, I did not know that specific area well.

MR LAX: Well you see - just to tell you this, your co-applicant said you knew the area.  He said you knew exactly where you were going.

ZAMA THUTHA: My co-accused, it was true that I knew the way that when I'm going this direction this is the place I'm going to.  If I take another direction I'm going to such and such a place.  I knew the names of the villages but not the villages themselves as such.

MR LAX: Just one absolute last question.  Where was your - when you looked, after you heard the first shot you said you went and peeked round on the lefthand side of the truck, you never saw your co-applicant and that led you to think he might have been shot, do you remember that?

ZAMA THUTHA: Yes, I do remember.

MR LAX: Well when you ran round the other side, did you see him at all?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not see him, that's when I saw Mike Meyers, the other side trying to get out of the truck, getting out of the truck.

MR LAX: And then you shot him, correct?

ZAMA THUTHA: Correct.

MR LAX: Did you see your co-accused at least your co-applicant at that stage, on the righthand side of the vehicle?

ZAMA THUTHA: I went to Mike Meyers to see whether he's got a weapon and then I went to the truck.  I then found my co-accused in the truck with this person, Donnie Meyers.  Until then or at that point I did not know whether Donnie Meyers was male or female.

MR LAX: You didn't even know she was there until then?

ZAMA THUTHA: I did not know who was in the truck, I just knew that there's a white, a short b(?), a white person in the truck.

MR LAX: The white person you thought was in the truck was Mike Meyers, you didn't even know Donnie was there, you didn't even see her up until that point and when Mike Meyers got out of the truck you didn't know anyone else was in the truck, so how can you say you knew there was a white person in the truck?

ZAMA THUTHA: When I got into the truck there was a white person, Donnie Meyers and my co-accused.  That was the first time I saw them after the bang.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, carry on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think the applicant wanted to say something to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ZAMA THUTHA: First of all I would like you to take note of the police that beat me up.  Secondly, where I am my head at the prison do not want me to make a case of this because ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker slow down please?

ZAMA THUTHA: I need help.  I do want to charge these police, I do want to report them.  There are things that I still cannot do that I would normally be able to do had they not beaten me up.

CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate your concern but at the moment you have an experienced attorney acting for you  and I would suggest you talk to him and he will give you the name of the relevant authority before whom you can lay your complaint and I have no doubt will assist you in doing so.  And certainly we as a Committee would request that his instructions be extended to cover that.

ZAMA THUTHA: This is the second time I've said this to this attorney, I can't see how he can help me because I cannot pay him.  He deals with you according to his fees, that's the problem.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I wouldn't like to get into this but I want to make it clear that I know about his complaint which was that he wanted to see a doctor when he was still here at East London prison.  That's the only thing I knew, that he wanted to see a doctor because he's not getting the proper medical attention and I talked to the head of the prison then when he was still here.
	The question regarding laying of charges, this is the first time Mr Chairman, to be honest, that I hear about that.  But I know about the medical problem and I talked to the head of the prison in East London when he was still here and he promised me that he will look into that and after that I didn't hear anything about the question of laying of charges.  Definitely Mr Chairman, I am at sea.

ADV SANDI: Anyway we shall take it that you will follow up the matter between yourself and your client.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now that I've heard about it Mr Chairman, definitely I will take the matter up, thank you.

MR PRIOR: May I be permitted now to call the witness, John  Manjibani?
	Thank you Mr Thutha, you can return to your place.

ZAMA THUTHA: Please I want to clarify this because this is not clear to me as you're talking.  I did mention this to the attorney and he advised me to write to the Attorney General.
	I said that that will be difficult whilst I am in jail.  It is clear that you are not advising me right now, you deal with money which I don't have but I do want to lay charges about these policemen that beat me up.  There is no-one who can help me.  
	I've written to the Human Rights Committee, there has been no response or they say that I must get my own attorney.  I've told the head, the authorities in the prison who says the same thing, that I must get a representative.  
	This is the representative that told me that I must write to the Attorney General.  I don't know how I'm supposed to do that whilst I am in jail.

CHAIRPERSON: Well your attorney has said that he will now consult with you, discuss this matter with you and advise you.  You can apply for legal aid to cover the fees, you are not necessarily having to pay for them yourself, if you have a valid claim where there's civil action against them, which you say you have.  I'm quite sure your attorney will now ...[intervention]

ZAMA THUTHA: Do you know when last I saw this attorney  since 1995 as I am here?

CHAIRPERSON: We are not here to consider your complaints about your attorney I'm afraid.  If you would like us to ask someone else to call on you in prison we can do so but we are not, we have no powers to take any action ourselves in that regard.