Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Having reached the conclusion after intensive 
discussions with Mr van Rensburg and Erasmus that Kondile had 
to be eliminated, what prevented you then from confronting him 
with the note that you had found and discussing that with him?

H B DU PLESSIS: I suppose I could have done that but I did not 
do it because I was satisfied that he had not yet sent out a 
message in the first place and I did not want to make him 
suspicious.

UNKNOWN: But how would there be any danger from him, 
he's now definitely going to be eliminated, not so?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: In this trip from Jeffrey's Bay through to Port 
Elizabeth and from Port Elizabeth to Komatipoort was there much 
discussion with Mr Kondile?

H B DU PLESSIS: No, not as far as I can remember.

UNKNOWN: On the surface, however, the two of you still got 
along very well?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And ...(intervention)

ADV BOOYENS: I was just suggesting to my client that perhaps 
he should slow down with the interpretation.  I think we are 
going to pick up problems once again.  I wasn't suggesting how 
he should answer a question.

UNKNOWN: Thanks.  If I got it correct from your evidence-
in-chief you were in the car with Mr Kondile, is that right, on this 
trip?

ADV BOOYENS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Have you any idea whether he knew what he was 
in for?

H B DU PLESSIS: No he did not know.

UNKNOWN: Was there any reason given by any of you for the 
trip that was undertaken?

H B DU PLESSIS: I can speculate as to what we told him but I 
cannot recall that we said anything pertinently.  It could be that 
we said that we wanted to transfer him to other people who 
wanted to ask him further questions.  I do not know, I cannot 
recall.

UNKNOWN: You have mentioned that it happened to be a 
Sergeant Otto who shot Mr Kondile, is that correct?

H B DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And Sergeant Otto happens to be a person who 
committed suicide, is that right?

H B DU PLESSIS: At a later stage I heard that he had died.  I 
don't know whether he committed suicide or what.  I saw him on 
that day and not again.

UNKNOWN: Were you introduced to him?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And by whom?

H B DU PLESSIS: I am not sure, possibly he introduced himself.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee has been very clear that there were a 
number of policemen who were there including Archie Flemington 
and other people that he's mentioned.

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't agree.  I want to tell you this about 
Archie Flemington. I am certain in my heart that I saw Archie 
Flemington for the first time during the Harms Commission in 
Pretoria.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee certainly doesn't mention an Otto but 
he refers to a person he did not know, a slender person, who took 
a gun, but that he says was Archie Flemington's gun, am I right?

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know.

UNKNOWN: And that gun was used to kill the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Now is it just mere coincidence that 
you happened to choose a person who is now dead to have done 
the killing?

H B DU PLESSIS: Facts are facts your Honour, I can't wish 
them away.

UNKNOWN: Well I will put it to you that the fact is that in 
comparing your versions Mr Coetzee's version is eminently more 
probable, that in fact there were other policemen present.

H B DU PLESSIS: There were other policemen, yes, we were 
there.

UNKNOWN: Yes, besides the group that you have spoken 
about.

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know about that, definitely not what I 
saw.

UNKNOWN: Wouldn't it have been protocol for Mr Coetzee 
to approach the person in charge in the Komatipoort area?

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't think it was necessary.  Perhaps he 
had contacted him, I don't know.

UNKNOWN: When he came to the Eastern Cape he made it his 
business to contact Mr van Rensburg, not so?

H B DU PLESSIS: I can't comment on that.

UNKNOWN: Tell me about the fire that was made, what was 
used to make the fire?

H B DU PLESSIS: It was dry sticks, some wood which was lying 
around and we brought bigger pieces of wood together.  I am 
referring only to myself here.  I am not sure whether diesel or 
petrol was used, I can't remember distinctly.

UNKNOWN: Whether it was diesel or petrol was it actually 
taken by somebody to the scene ...(intervention)

ADV BOOYENS: No I think there may be a misunderstanding.  
The witness' answer was, he cannot recall whether there was 
diesel or petrol.

UNKNOWN: Yes, the question is, whatever it was that was 
used to light the fire was it already taken by somebody else to the 
scene?

H B DU PLESSIS: I think so.  I can't remember that we have 
taken something with.  I can't say that diesel or something was 
used there.  I can remember the wood, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: I think what the witness said, is he can't 
remember whether anything was used, and not whether either 
diesel or petrol was used.  His answer was, "I can't remember 
whether anything was used".

UNKNOWN: You were saying earlier that it was dry wood 
that was used, could you give us the time when the process began 
of gathering wood?  Plus/minus are we talking about afternoon or 
evening, what time was it?

H B DU PLESSIS: We came there during late that afternoon.  I 
think the arrangement was that we would meet Mr Coetzee at six 
o'clock.  I think we met him round about that time.  There already 
had been gathered dry wood at that stage and we gathered some 
more wood afterwards, more wood was gathered afterwards.

UNKNOWN: So if I get you correctly this process started in 
the afternoon?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And did it go along all evening that more wood 
was gathered and put on the burning fire?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Were no tyres used at all?

H B DU PLESSIS: Definitely not.

UNKNOWN: You see I am again going to put it that the 
version that Mr Coetzee gives of wood and tyres actually being 
brought on the scene is far more probable than what you are 
telling us now.

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't agree.

UNKNOWN: You have given some evidence of how this 
incident affected you.

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: I wonder if you've spared a thought at all for 
how it's affected the family of Mr Kondile?

H B DU PLESSIS: I realise that it must have been a bitter 
experience for them.

UNKNOWN: You have given a list which goes as many as ten 
points and you still refer to other documents after that which are 
supposed to define the political object that you sought to achieve, 
is that correct?

H B DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: I put it to you that if we go one by one through 
your list we will find that nothing will justify the murder and the 
callous and inhuman way in which Mr Kondile was treated by you 
and the others to justify any political objective.

H B DU PLESSIS: I realise that it is difficult for any person to 
accept that, but the other side of the story is also true.  We 
received the same treatment from the ANC.  They had a task 
which they had to fulfil, I also had a task which I had to do, just 
like they believed I also believed that I was doing the right thing. 
 Nine out of ten cases, all of us were wrong and the politicians 
did not do their jobs.

UNKNOWN: Well very good, but there is something called 
proportionality and whether it's from the ANC and whether it's 
from you, once you exceed that line we can't talk of politics 
anymore.

H B DU PLESSIS: Definitely yes, I believed in any case that I 
did all that in the interests of the politics and of my country to do 
that.

UNKNOWN: I don't think you understood me.  There is a 
point we reach, even in terms of the Act in terms of which you 
are applying for amnesty where we cannot even begin to talk 
about politics because you've crossed the line.

H B DU PLESSIS: I realise that, yes.