Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, there is a request of Mr Joseph Mabaso who is present here today, he is sitting next to me here.  He is the person that received the notification according Section 19 of the Act, which appears on page 86, Mr Chairman.
	I can maybe just for the record, Mr Chairman, indicate that the statement that was submitted by Mr Kondile which appears on page 10, and specifically paragraph 4, where is he is applying for the murder of Alfred Matanje of - I don't think I've pronounced it correctly, during September 1991, as you would recall, Mr Chairman, the applicant implicated Mr Mabaso as being the person who was responsible for the shooting incident where an AK47 was allegedly used.  
	Mr Mabaso elected to testify and tell his side of the story if you would allow it, Mr Chairman.  He asked me to lead him on certain questions.  I will just be sketching his background briefly and ask him a few questions about the information that was put before the Committee, if you would allow that, Mr Chairman.  
	He is Zulu speaking, Mr Chairman.

JOSEPH MABASO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mabaso, just for the record, am I correct in saying that you were the person that was referred to by the applicant as being Mr Joseph Mabaso?  At the time of the incident you used to work at the same factory as the applicant was working, is that correct?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV STEENKAMP: Okay.  Just for the record could you indicate what your current occupation is and where do you stay?

JOSEPH MABASO: I stay at Vosloorus, Morimba Garden, Extension 9.  I'm working at Boksburg.

ADV STEENKAMP: Where do you work in Boksburg?

JOSEPH MABASO: Langeberg Foods.

ADV STEENKAMP: Do you know the applicant before the Committee?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, I know him.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain to the Committee how you know him?

JOSEPH MABASO: I know him because we were working together at the factory.

ADV STEENKAMP: For how long had you been working together?

JOSEPH MABASO: We've been working together for a very long time.  I have 13 years worth of experience.  I'm not sure whether he was employed there before me or after me.

ADV STEENKAMP: Just briefly, you are aware of the incident that happened during 1991 where there were certain labour relation tensions at the factory, am I right?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, I know about that because I too was a shop steward at the time.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you belong to any union?

JOSEPH MABASO: Food and Allied Workers Union, FAWU.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now if I'm not mistaken you have heard the whole testimony of the applicant, am I right?

JOSEPH MABASO: That is correct.

ADV STEENKAMP: You heard the specific piece of evidence where the applicant has referred to you as being the implicated party in the killing of Mr Alfred Myante(?) during September 1991, did you hear that?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, I did hear that testimony.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you describe or can you relate to the Committee exactly what your perception or your understanding of the incident was?

JOSEPH MABASO: First of all I was a shop steward at Langeberg.  Yes, there was conflict between, among the workers at Langeberg and this pertained to UWUSA and/or Inkatha.  The entire shop steward committee was up to date as to what was happening.

ADV STEENKAMP: Let's start from the beginning.  Can you recall a meeting with the ANC, where a meeting was held at the ANC offices about the whole incident?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, I do remember.  I was among the delegates at the meeting.

ADV STEENKAMP: Was the applicant present?

JOSEPH MABASO: No, he was not present at that meeting.

ADV STEENKAMP: What discussed and what was the purpose of the meeting?

JOSEPH MABASO: The purpose of the meeting was because of the continuation of the conflict.  We therefore wanted to inform them that people were dying and we wanted to know if they wouldn't come so that discussions can be held to find out if there cannot be a solution.

ADV STEENKAMP: Was there any decision taken at that meeting to resolve the conflict?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, they did try to call leaders from both parties.  As a result there was a peace committee that was established.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now going to this specific incident, are you aware of this incident where Mr Alfred Myante was killed?

JOSEPH MABASO: I only heard that it occurred just like that.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you give any indication why the applicant should refer to you as being the person who shot the late Mr Myante with an AK47?

JOSEPH MABASO: I think because we were all together in the union, he too was also my friend and I never paid him a visit since he was arrested.  Maybe that's one of the reasons that is resulting in him implicating me.  We did everything as a committee, maybe he is bitter thinking that we left him in the lurch.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now you've heard the testimony of the applicant, is there anything else that you would like to put before the Committee that you differ with from him?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, I would say that.  Firstly, whatever was happening ourselves as a shop steward committee we used to discussed among ourselves.  We would involve the management where necessary so that this violence could come to an end.

ADV STEENKAMP: There was also testimony by the applicant that there was a group decision, if I'm not mistaken, taken by the group of people to defend themselves and if necessary like in this incident, to defend themselves by taking up arms, do you agree with that testimony?

JOSEPH MABASO: No, in our committee there was no-one who came up with the idea that people should take up arms. Everything that we did we did peacefully, not violently.

ADV STEENKAMP: Was there any decision to kill any of the other members of Inkatha who was apparently responsible for this violence?

JOSEPH MABASO: It was an intention between the ANC and the IFP but I would not say or single out any particular party as having been responsible.

ADV STEENKAMP: ...[inaudible] was there any specific decision taken to kill any of these people?

JOSEPH MABASO: No.

ADV STEENKAMP: Is there anything else you would like to add to your evidence Mr Mabaso?

JOSEPH MABASO: What I can say is that I was surprised when I received the summons summoning me to the TRC, firstly because I don't know what it is that I have done.  This is news to me.  That is all I can say.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr van den Berg, questions?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	You confirmed that you know the applicant in this matter, Mr Kondile?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, I now him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That you were fellow shop stewards at Langeberg Foods?

JOSEPH MABASO: That's correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you know the deceased in this matter, Mr Myante, did you know him?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, he was supervisor at the factory.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And he was a supporter of the IFP?

JOSEPH MABASO: I wouldn't say about that, I don't know which party he supported because he was at work all the time.

MR VAN DEN BERG: ...[inaudible] and the only reason that you can offer for Mr Kondile implicating you is that maybe you didn't visit Mr Kondile in prison?

JOSEPH MABASO: Yes, I think that may be the reason.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Have you submitted an application for amnesty?

JOSEPH MABASO: What for?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Is it correct that you've not submitted an application for amnesty?

JOSEPH MABASO: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: No further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

MR SIBANYONI: None, Mr Chairperson.