Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: ny guns?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: nd where did you get the bag from?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Vusi leftthe bag with me.

<UNKNOWN>: efore he left?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd then I was supposed to take that bag to Lester.

<UNKNOWN>: nd he said I must keepit for a while.

<UNKNOWN>: y the time I was arrested I had this bag with me, taking itto Lester.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why were you taking it to Lester at that time?

<UNKNOWN>: ecause he told me to do so.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When did he tellyou that?

CHAIRPERSON: Why were you taking it at that time and not some othertime, is that the point?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why on that particular day were you taking it to Lester?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Itis because Lester told me that the following day I must bring the bag.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE The day following what?

<UNKNOWN>: efore the day I wasarrested.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: So you were in contact with Lester the day beforeyou were arrested?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why was that?

<UNKNOWN>: ecause I was the one who knows where Lester stays.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE What did you have to contact him about though?

<UNKNOWN>: s my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander I was supposed to go and see him.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: For whatpurpose?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: For messages, maybe I would have taken and give toother colleagues of us.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What did you think the attack wouldachieve?

<UNKNOWN>: an you please clarify your question?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What did you think would be achieved by the attack?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: The attackwas done under the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , and

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was fighting the armed struggle.It was fighting for the land of the

<UNKNOWN>: lacks that were taken from them with forceby the Whites and that was the duty of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: to fight for the land to come back,using armed struggle, that is what it was formed for.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Howwould this attack help the land to come back?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: The strugglethat was going on in this country, as the

<UNKNOWN>: frican nation was the struggle tothe oppressors. When we see them, we see White people. They were the minoritythat was ruling. The power they had were using them to oppress the

<UNKNOWN>: fricans.They were in a war with us as

<UNKNOWN>: fricans although we were unarmed, the way theywere armed.

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: then was fighting returning a bullet with a bullet, protectingthe

<UNKNOWN>: fricans in

<UNKNOWN>: zania and the P

<UNKNOWN>: was busy using other tactics, so that youpeople in the government could hear the cries of the children of

<UNKNOWN>: zania. Ifyour ears couldn't listen,

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: decided to take guns to open the ears that werenot prepared to listen.

<UNKNOWN>: ut is it not so Mr Makoma thatthe very time you did that, there was a special meeting of all the parties arrangedin Johannesburg to specially provide that all the ears of everybody would beopened to hear what the P

<UNKNOWN>: and everyone else had to say, at the very time youcommitted this attack?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I know that, but

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: as the militarywing of the P

<UNKNOWN>: never had an instruction from the political leadership of P

<UNKNOWN>: not to use the arms, that is why soldiers of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: were still busy fighting andshooting.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You heard earlier the press statements that weread out and the newspaper reports which said that the P

<UNKNOWN>: denied any responsibilityfor the act, that they condemn the act, that

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: denied any responsibilityfor the act. You heard the statement of Mr Desai who said that he condemnedthe act, you heard

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: saying it was not the kind of operation that they wouldauthorise. On what basis then do you say it was in the furtherance of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: 'spolicies that you committed this attack?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: The attack was ledby one of the High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand members of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: . One of the big high profile membersof

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: who were giving instructions to the soldiers.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Ifthat is so, then why did this

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: spokesperson in Dar Es Salaam say they hadno responsibility for the attack?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania,when there is a call to South

<UNKNOWN>: frica and when someone is calling him or herselfas a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , and then that person does not identify him or herself clearly,and then we were supposed to take that instruction.

<UNKNOWN>: nd we would say it is from

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: and yet, it is from the media or the papers, not from

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You knew when you went into that church that there would be many people insideand that what you did would kill many people and injure many people? Is thatso?

<UNKNOWN>: re you saying when I was going there I - is it I knewthat there was going to be many people because I have told you that I didn'tknow. Maybe you can ask whether did I see that there were many people, becauseI knew nothing before that.

<UNKNOWN>: s Judge Wilson said earlier,you saw there were lots of cars parked outside for one, so there must have beenmany people? You saw when you went inside that there were many people?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes, inside.

<UNKNOWN>: nd for what purpose was it necessaryto glue nails onto the handgrenades?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: The weapons that wereused there, I was seeing them for the very first time and I never put any nails.If who took them there and who put the nails there, I don't know.

<UNKNOWN>: ut you knew when you threw that handgrenade that there were nails glued toit?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes, I saw them that there were nails glued, but the ordersaid I must throw it while it is glued.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You have been tochurch yourself, is that correct?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd you know that the church is a place of sanctuary and a place where peoplepray?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you not think that somethingelse would have been a better target than a church?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: If I wasin the position of choosing the target, I would have thought that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, are there any questions you wish to put?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I just want to clear up one point, it won't be long. You saidearlier in your evidence that you met Vusi through a P

<UNKNOWN>: Regional Executivemember?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: an you give me his name, I missedit. The name of that Regional Executive member who introduced you to Vusi?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: It was Mhambi.

<UNKNOWN>: an you spell it please?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Mhambi.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Was that his code name or his real name?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I won't know whether it was his real name or surname, that is all I know itwas Mr Mhambi.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: That is the only name you know?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd of what region was he an Executive member or of whichregion rather?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Western

<UNKNOWN>: ape region;

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Western

<UNKNOWN>: ape?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd is he still about, is he livingin the Western

<UNKNOWN>: ape, do you know?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No, I don't know whetherhe is still here in the Western

<UNKNOWN>: ape or not.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: So you don't knowwhere he lives?