Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

CHAIRPERSON: You've completed your case Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: We have no further evidence to present Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We are proceeding now with the same hearing which is now the 24th of September.   Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I call as the first witness Mr van Rensburg.

ADV DE JAGER: Your full names please.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: (sworn states)

MR BOOYENS: Mr van Rensburg, you have your amnesty application in front of you, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Do you affirm to page 1 of the application?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I do.

MR BOOYENS: Your history in the police as set out on page 2, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It is correct.

MR BOOYENS: When this incident took place in 1982, you had the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And were you officer commanding of the branch that dealt with trade unions inter alias?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You give a personal overview of your personal history on page 2, do you attest to that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR BOOYENS: And the declaration that you did not do this for monetary gain, do you confirm that as well?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I do.

MR BOOYENS: You apply for the abduction and killing of Siphiwe Mthimkhulu and Topsi Madaka and making a false statement before the Harmse Commission in 1982, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: If we look at the particulars of this transgression - before we dwell on this, let's go back a little bit.  Before 14 April 1982, were you aware of  Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka before you and Mr du Plessis spoke to each other?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I was aware of them.

MR BOOYENS: What did you know about them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I took broad cognisance of certain activities of theirs.

MR BOOYENS: I've just been told to slow down slightly Mr Chairman.
	You state that approximately two weeks before 14 April 1982, you and the applicant Mr du Plessis had a conversation with the applicant Mr Erasmus, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: What did this concern?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr du Plessis had discussions with me regarding the two persons' activities.  He stated to me that their activities were taking such a range now that something had to be done about it.

MR BOOYENS: Now if we can deal with these two quickly.  We know that Mr Mthimkhulu was an overt figure, he acted openly, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: What was his main sphere of activity according to your own knowledge and how you were informed?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He was inter alias in the position at the COSAS student organisation and he also incited the youth, mobilised them and politicised them to indulge in schools boycotts and thus to bring the schools to a standstill in this area.

MR BOOYENS: There is a bit of history in this regard that Mr Mthimkhulu had previously been held in terms of Section 6 of the previous legislation regarding terrorism and that it is alleged that he had been poisoned, had been hospitalised in the Cape and returned here, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now the allegations regarding his poisoning, were these allegations made prominent in the press?   And if we look at some cuttings - examples of newspaper cuttings, questions were in Parliament, it had been stated that the police had already started an investigation and we also find detail regarding a civil suite for alleged assault.  If we look at the cuttings, if you could just tell the Commission whether this is the type of press article which appeared at the time.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, I have looked at the cuttings and they are of the kind of which I referred to, of which I had taken cognisance at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: What cuttings are we talking about?

MR BOOYENS: I'll be handing these in, they are not part of the application Mr Chairman.  I'm just not sure, are we at Exhibit C at this stage I presume?

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit C I think was that bundle that Mr Visser handed in and of which we later got four - two pages.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: So it will be D.

MR BOOYENS: Exhibit D, I'll just mark it.
	The fact that Mr Mthimkhulu was allegedly poisoned by the security police, what did it do to his stature as a leader and his activities?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It enhanced his stature and it did not stop his activities at all as far as the organisational ability could continue, it actually helped him in this and in his agitation because more people, more youths now regarded him as a martyr.

MR BOOYENS: You stated he was regarded as a martyr, did the fact that he was allegedly poisoned by the police used by him to enhance his figure as a leader and to reflect on the activities of the police?  Is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes it is.

MR BOOYENS: As far as Mr Madaka is concerned, what were his main activities according to your knowledge and according to what you were informed?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I was informed that Mr Madaka was mostly involved in underground activities, he was a member of an ANC cell at that stage and his activities inter alia involved the recruitment of youths for military training outside the country to act as couriers between the ANC and Lesotho and locally, to smuggle arms into the country and to start DLB's, safe places to hide arms.

MR BOOYENS: Did the two of them co-operate?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, they did.

MR BOOYENS: On page 4 then, you continue to deal with the Congress of South African Students and their role in the schools, the resistance against the apartheid education system, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I do, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Was there strong resistance against the so-called slave education?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is so.

MR BOOYENS: On page 5 you continue to deal with the fact that there were uprisings and school boycotts in the Eastern Cape, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And then also the banning of certain Black movements.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: The founding of COSAS, you state was a direct consequence of the banning of other Black consciousness movements, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: How important was the role of the youth and the school pupils during those days?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: They played a very important role because it mobilised the youth and it siphoned through to virtually every family because virtually every family had children.  And the disturbance in the school was part of the process of making the country ungovernable and in this regard it played a very ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: You mean the country ungovernable?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I do and it played an important role.

MR BOOYENS: Was there politicisation of education?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, there was.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm the rest of the statements on page 5?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I do.