Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: He was brought to the meeting and after explaining, after confessing that he personally did that, he asked for forgiveness as to, he told us that he was drunk he didn't know what he was doing and he was asked why did he target the ANC Women's League and there was then a decision that Zenzile should be taken to the police station by the comrades, he shouldn't go to the police station on his own.  The woman was already in the hospital and I was among the members who were taking Zenzile to the police station.   As we were walking along with him...

<UNKNOWN>: : ...being among the group that was mandated to take Zenzile to the police station, you took him and then what happened?

ANSWER: I was a marshall ordered to take him to the police
2b	station /...
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station and on our way to the police station, people were following us, the people who were at the mass meeting, we wanted the transport to take him to the police station and as the people were following us Zenzile pulled out his gun and I pulled out mine also and I just shot him instantly.

<UNKNOWN>: : When you took Zenzile to the meeting were you aware that he was armed?

ANSWER: We knew that he had a gun but on that day we didn't realise that he had a gun on himself because we didn't search him, we didn't want the conditions or the situation to be bad, we just talked to him in a very polite manner and he was walking to the meeting together with us.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was he aware at the time that you were armed?

ANSWER: He knew that some of the comrades were armed, but he didn't know who among the comrades had guns.

<UNKNOWN>: : You talk of you having been in possession of a gun, where did you find this gun?

ANSWER: This was from the donations from the community after Zenzile's group attacked the community.   Comrade Papi was given the money to buy the guns, they were all being stored at his place.   He gave me the gun on the day of the mass meeting.

<UNKNOWN>: : So if you got the gun from comrade Papi who is this comrade Papi?

ANSWER: He is my co-accused Elias Bozakwe.

<UNKNOWN>: : You shot Nglameni, how did you shoot Nglameni?

ANSWER: I pulled out my gun, that was, I shot him, I shot him same time, I had a 9mm gun with me.

<UNKNOWN>: : According to the application before the Committee, Nglameni was shot, stoned and beaten with a hard iron-like object.    Who stoned, who beat Nglameni?
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ANSWER: /...
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ANSWER: Many people were stoning him, comrade Rich had, I saw him perfectly well he took this iron, iron bar and he hit him on the head.

<UNKNOWN>: : The deceased Nglameni being a member of the vigilante group, but the Committee would like to know more about that vigilante group.   What was it doing?   How was it related to you as ANC marshals?

ANSWER: This was just a group of gangsters with a intention to harass the ANC activists, they were raping, collecting money in the name of the ANC from the community.   They were assaulting people, that was their function.

<UNKNOWN>: : ....to you as the ANC marshall that makes you think that they were targeting you?

ANSWER: There was no action that they have done to me before, but other comrades were really attacked in the township.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did this group disrupt any meeting called by the civics or the ANC, did they disrupt any political activity of the ANC or the civic association?

ANSWER: Many a times when we held our meetings they would come and disturb us and they would shoot, they would throw stones.

<UNKNOWN>: : You mentioned in your evidence that then you came to know from a member of Zenzile's group that he was working in collusion with the police.   The Committee would like to know, or let me ask who, from who, who is this person who gave you or who defected from Zenzile and gave you the information that he was in collusion with the police?

ANSWER: The person who gave us the information was Oupa, he was a member of Zenzile's group.   He came to us and he
2b	said /...
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said we should know that there is a money that we get from, that they get from the police, some of them have guns and they have been getting those guns by the police and he said to us we should be alert at all times, these people can attack us at any time.

<UNKNOWN>: : Could you give the names of some of these police persons?

ANSWER: The name that he mentioned was Lope(?), there's a policeman called Lope, I do not know his surname but he never mentioned the others.

<UNKNOWN>: : This Lope is he a policeman in Ganana or is he a policeman in Orkney, where is he stationed or where was he stationed at the time?

ANSWER: He was a policeman in Orkney.

<UNKNOWN>: : A black policeman or a white policeman?

ANSWER: He is a white policeman.

<UNKNOWN>: : You mentioned that this group of Zenzile were troublesome.   You as ANC marshals now, what did you hope actually to achieve in this struggle between yourselves and this group?

ANSWER: As the marshals of the ANC we wanted peace between ourselves and this vigilante group, but things were not that way because always when they appeared they were attacking, they were just in the spirit of war.

<UNKNOWN>: : You are saying in your application that the political objective that you wanted to achieve was free political activity.   Would you say that the Zenzile group was hampering this activity?

ANSWER: Yes they were hampering us, we wouldn't have any free political activity because every time they heard that there was going to be a mass meeting they would attack.
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While we were in our rallies they were always attacking.

<UNKNOWN>: : Let's go back to the 21 now when you killed Zenzile.   The Committee would like to know the actual reason of your killing him.   You talked of him producing a gun and running into a house, why...

JUDGE WILSON: : He made no mention of him running into a house.

<UNKNOWN>: : Why did you shoot him, why did you produce a gun and shoot him?

ANSWER: When he pulled out his gun I said if he was going to shoot he was going to kill many people, so I decided to shoot first before he could injure my comrades.

<UNKNOWN>: : So are you saying that had he not produced the gun then you wouldn't have shot him?

ANSWER: No I would have never shot at him, I would have gone straight to the police station.

<UNKNOWN>: : In your statement you in an attempt to highlight what Zenzile group was doing to the community, you mentioned an instance where a certain comrade Madewu.

ANSWER: Yes I know comrade Madewu.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did this group do to Madewu?

ANSWER: This group met comrade Madewu at comrade (indistinct) house and they demanded money and when he said to them he doesn't have money they poured paraffin on him and they burned his head.

<UNKNOWN>: : As far as I am concerned it was a criminal act, was he ever arrested for this, do you know if he was arrested and charged for having done so?

ANSWER: No he was never arrested and the comrades took him to the police station, that was after he burned comrade Madewu but there was no case at all.   We saw him back in
2b	the /...
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the township again.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ATTORNEY

CHAIRPERSON: : How many times did you shoot this man?

ANSWER: I shot just one bullet.

<UNKNOWN>: : You described that others in the crowd that were following him also assaulted him, did that assault take place before you shot him or after you shot him?

ANSWER: They assaulted him after I shot him because I shot him he was powerless he didn't have any balance at all, he didn't know what to do and his gun fell and stones were threw at him.

<UNKNOWN>: : What happened to him after that assault?

ANSWER: Comrade Lekitlana poured petrol on him, he wanted to burn him and comrade Bosakwe said please do not burn him he is already dead.

<UNKNOWN>: : So what happened?

ANSWER: We waited until the police came to take his corpse.