Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

MR VISSER: And the specific incident is dealt with under 4 from page 11 onwards of that bundle, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now, in front of you have a document which was drafted on the basis of evidence and as a result of consultations which we had with you?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: Just one second Mr Visser, the technician is indicating there's some sort of a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: It will become necessary for counsel once again to place themselves on record quickly so that it will be properly recorded what has happened up to now apparently has not been properly recorded.  So Mr Visser, you appear for all the applicants?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  And Mr Wills, you and Adv Poswa appear for the two families.

JOHN WILLS: That's correct. I appear for the family of Shabalala, Mr Chairperson.

MS POSWA: And she appears for Ndaba?

JOHN WILLS: Yes, that's so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're here now.

MS POSWA: That's correct, I appear for the Ndaba family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Mr Botha, you may commence, you have already been sworn in as far as I am concerned and you will commence leading his evidence.  You have already started but do carry on.  You've referred to the fact that he has given evidence at previous hearings.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I am going to briefly just repeat that to make absolutely certain that that has been recorded.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha you've previously before this Committee and before a Committee in which Justice Wilson was the presiding officer in December last year, you testified about the general background and specifically Operation Vula and Operation Butterfly, is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you wish to incorporate that evidence today in your evidence?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: In front of you you also have an exhibit which is Exhibit D.  That is a summary of consultation notes, a consultation which we had with you?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And you also confirm the contents of that except for that which you will add and qualify today in your evidence here as true and correct.  Do you also wish to incorporate that today in your evidence?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: This amnesty application deals with the abduction, detention and murder of two people, Mr Charles Ndaba, M K Zwelakhe, (Z - W - E - L - A - K - H - E) and Mbuso (M - B - U - S - O) Shabalala (S - H - A - B - A - L - A - L - A), is that correct?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Please turn to page 2 and tell the Committee what you know about and your role in this incident.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I read the amnesty application of General Steyn and I agree with it in so far as it relates to me.  The murder of Ndaba and Shabalala took place during the night of Saturday/Sunday the 14th to the 15th of July 1990 but the run up to the murders actually started some time before these mentioned dates.
	Charles Ndaba was recruited by me in Swaziland in 1988, recruited as an informer and in that stage, one Tami Zulu was the Commanding Officer, of MK, Natal machinery in Swaziland.  Tami Zulu was withdrawn from the ANC out of Swaziland to go to Lusaka and Zambia because he was suspected by the ANC of collaborating with the Security Forces.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, perhaps you are just going a little bit too fast.  Please just slow your tempo a little bit.

H J P BOTHA: I will.

MR VISSER: Perhaps now that I have interrupted you, in 1988 what was your position then?  Where were you and what was your position?

H J P BOTHA: I was the Commanding Officer of the MK Intelligence Component in the region Port Natal.

MR VISSER: Who were your Commanding Officers?

H J P BOTHA: My immediate superior was Col Andy Taylor and the Regional Commander was Gen Bertus Steyn.

MR VISSER: That is the same general Steyn who is also an applicant in this matter?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Right, please continue.

H J P BOTHA: As a result of the events, ... (end of tape) ...Commanding officer and the immediate consequence of this was that he aroused a much greater interest amongst the Security Intelligence Structures in the Republic.  I realised that the possibility that Ndaba could become a target for elimination, could not be excluded and I consequently during a meeting with Ndaba, I suggested that he should try and work it so that he be recalled to Lusaka, which Ndaba apparently achieved and as far as I can remember he was transferred by the ANC back to Zambia in 1988.
	Now the reason for my suggestion and my advice to Ndaba was because I believed that I would be able, by means of the existing informers, to get information of planned MK operations even though it might not be quite so reliable or complete as the information which I would get from Ndaba.

MR VISSER: So what you are saying is that your decision was to rather do without his information, rather than run the risk of him becoming a target?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So what was he going to do in Zambia?

H J P BOTHA: Chair, if I remember correctly, his withdrawal from Swaziland was done by means of a deportation order from the Swaziland Government.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the question is, what did he do in Zambia?

H J P BOTHA: His withdrawal was in order to be used in the ANC circles in Zambia where he would be safe, but what his exact role was to be, I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

H J P BOTHA: The possibility that Ndaba could become a target was a much greater consideration for me at that stage.  According to what he told me later, he infiltrated the Republic of South Africa at the beginning of 1990 and approximately 4 to 6 weeks before his arrest on the 7th of July 1990, Ndaba contacted me.
	After we agreed on a particular rendezvous, I met him and he told me that he'd become involved in an operation of the ANC and he referred to it as the President's Committee.  The purpose of the operation was to infiltrate eminent ANC/SACP leading figures in the RSA and the objective for this was to launch a long term project for a popular revolt.

CHAIRPERSON: Slow down a bit please.

MR VISSER: You're going too fast Mr Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: When you talked about infiltrating prominent people into the country, from where?

H J P BOTHA: That would be from outside the borders of the RSA.

MR VISSER: Continue.