Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, this is not what I said, all that was said was that the people were told to go into that area and whether that took a day, that was a very short exercise, it was a short time and the people realised that the people did not trust them, they withdrew, they came back to us, they asked for a weapon to serve as a showpiece and they returned.  I did not say they had to obtain the information within five minutes, it could have taken one day, three days or weeks.  We were allocated to the Durban area for at least one month.

MR SHEZI: You were a policeman at that time with some experience, what did you say your rank was at the time?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I was a Warrant Officer, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: Investigation of murder as it were, because policemen were killed, murder had been committed, would that have been the ordinary way of trying to find information about investigations?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I don't understand what you're asking.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this how you investigate a murder usually, you infiltrate every area in a city?  If somebody is killed in Durban in Smith Street, then you infiltrate every single area in Durban?  This is the question.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I wouldn't say every single area has to be infiltrated, that's why we started where the flashpoint was and that was Chesterville.  If I remember correctly, there were also people deployed to Lamontville and you just follow up the information which you obtain.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shezi?

MR SHEZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just two last questions.
	What do you mean Chesterville as flashpoint?  Just explain that to me and the Commission.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: At that stage Chesterville was a flashpoint, there were a lot of problems there, there were many Self-defence Units, there were unrests in that area.

MR SHEZI: And one more question which was I believe, put earlier on to you by Mr Ramawele.  I'm going to put it to you.  The group that went to Chesterville, Sgt Radebe and others, they drove in a separate car to go and find information which was going to be used later on to make a follow-up about the killing of the Security Branch policemen, will it be correct to say that if that information was received, further investigations or other follow-ups of information received would have been done some days later, depending on the nature of the information of course?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: Why were you then waiting down there by the bridge for these guys to come back?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Because we were the handlers of those people and should any problems arise, we could assist them.

MR SHEZI: What problems for example?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Any kind of problem.

MR SHEZI: I asked you for an example, give an example.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: The car could have broken down, somebody could have been injured, somebody could have fallen ill or something like that, they perhaps needed additional assistance, perhaps more information about the environment.

MR SHEZI: The local policemen, Chesterville policemen, were they in any way ever contacted, were they nearby you, what was the case?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman, we did not contact them.

MR SHEZI: Did you and those guys which had went to Chesterville, carry any two-way radios by which you were communicating?  I don't think cellphones were there when you were there at that time.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: Then suppose the car broke down right where they were, how would you have known about it and more specifically, how could you have got in there?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, Mr Chairman, they would have made some or other plan to get back to us.  That is all I can say, I can't speculate what we would have done had something happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't they have looked for you at the graveyard?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, they knew we moved to the bridge.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell them you were going to the bridge now?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shezi?

MR SHEZI: One more question.  Did you eventually find information about the killing of the policemen?  Eventually, did you get that information?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Not as far as I know, Mr Chairman.  Before we could obtain the information shooting broke out.

MR SHEZI: Were there any other follow-ups in any other township of a similar sort of trying to get this information or the Chesterville incident was the only one by which you attempted to get this information?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, Mr Chairman.  There were other groups who went out, I don't know what they achieved.

MR SHEZI: I'm talking about your group, your group.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, after the shooting our group went to Pretoria the next morning.

MR SHEZI: And then as far as your group is concerned, the whole purpose of trying to get information about the killing of policemen just went up in smoke?  It was never pursued anymore?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Not in Durban, no Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: That will be all, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHEZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Shezi.
	So is that all you did, is that all the group did?  You infiltrated, you sent the people into Chesterville, a shooting took place, then you packed up and you left home.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: The instruction did not come from us, after the shooting incident early that morning we received instructions from Col de Kock that we had to go back to Pretoria.  We did not ask why.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the sum total of your involvement in this operation.  Is this the sum total of your group's participation or involvement in this whole operation in which the whole of Vlakplaas was involved?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Vermeulen, do I understand that there was only one AK47 in the vehicle that you were in with Mr Nortje?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay.  So then Mr Nortje has withdrawn his application in this matter, but the papers are still before us and he at that stage would also have applied for possession of an AK47.  Would it be the same AK47, was there only one AK47?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: As far as I know, yes, Mr Chairperson, only one AK47.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can I ask you, does the name Vernon Hamilton Hunter mean anything to you, does it ring a bell with you?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I'm not sure, but it does ring a bell.  I'm not sure if it might have been the army person helping us with the information, I'm not sure but it does sound as if that could be the case.

MS PATEL: Okay.  He was at that stage a Lieutenant stationed at the Umbilo SAP.  It is correct that he in fact was the one who liaised with you and Nortje at the time, okay.  Now does the name Charles Ndaba mean anything to you?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: My memory was refreshed this morning about Charles Ndaba.  I think this was the person that they said was responsible for the shooting of the security policemen and that he also had an SDU unit operating in that vicinity.  This is only hearsay. I would not say that this is the truth, but this is what I head, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Where did you hear this information and when did you hear it?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I think it was yesterday from Willie Nortje, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: So you weren't privy to this information at the time of this incident?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I didn't understand, what do you mean?

MS PATEL: The information about Charles Ndaba, you didn't know about that at the time of this incident having taken place?