Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: They did not explain, but they just said that they do have the money.  We demanded that they must produce the money so as to be able to use it for the purpose it was collected for, but in vain.

JUDGE WILSON: Since that time are these people still members of the ANC?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: At this time, they are still calling themselves ANC members, but that was the last meeting we were with.

JUDGE WILSON: You went to prison after that, you have been locked up for years, haven't you?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Even since  I was sent to prison, they are not in the vicinity any more, they are not residing there any more.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know if the ANC has made any attempt to get this money from them that you say they had?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, there was a commission of inquiry into this matter because we did report to the comrades that members had collected this money and yet it is not being produced and the residents are being attacked.

JUDGE WILSON: Who held the commission of inquiry?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: It was Bongi Jonas.

JUDGE WILSON: Who is he?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: He is a member of the MK who was residing in our area.

JUDGE WILSON: Is he still there?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: He is still there, but I am not sure as to where exactly is he staying or working.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to the commission of inquiry?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: The commission of inquiry that was led by Jonas, it became a problem to the residents, because he never came back to report.  Even myself, I am not aware as to what happened to this commission ultimately.  Nobody is aware.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was the commission of inquiry held?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: This commission of inquiry was held in April after the incident that took place at my house.
	It happened after a shooting incident on school premises when Ditini was among those people where there was an argument over this money issue and  they went to the Regional Office where Tony Yengeni was instructed to come and disarm us and investigate what was happening.

JUDGE WILSON: What year was it, April of what year?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Sorry, April 1992.

JUDGE WILSON: And  you say he was instructed to disarm you?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Tony Yengeni, Diba and Lisa Nonqwana were sent by the Region to come and disarm us.

JUDGE WILSON: Regional Committee of the ANC?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, sir.

JUDGE WILSON: When were they sent?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: They came to my house I think it was in the beginning of April.  It was in the morning and they told me that they got information that we are shooting each other and therefor they have come to disarm us.
	I told them to respect the organisation, I will do as they please, but what they are saying, it is not true but it is just these men who are just causing all these unrest in the community and then we left with them to go to the R Section, that is where we found comrade Dulah Omar and Willie Hofmeyr who said that we will meet at Fawu Buildings to a meeting the following morning.
	I told them that what you have just done now, have put us in a difficult situation because we are facing the enemy.  And truly on that day the ISU's killed Video Fopo and in that meeting there were many people present who wanted to know how did it come that this man was shot, but Ngxobongwana was also there with his group and they were armed, but there was a lot of dissatisfaction in the meeting and an interim committee was to be elected until the 17th of May to look into this.
	Before this 17th of May, my mother was attacked on the 13th of May and therefor the next meeting could not be held and the commission of inquiry could not be followed up and thus everything was left uncertain.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to re-examine the witness?

ADV MATHANA: No sir.

MR BRINK: I haven't had a chance to put questions yet, Mr Chairman.  I wonder if a copy of his application couldn't be placed before him?  Well the whole one, but I will be referring in the main to paragraph 10 on page 13.  You've got your application in front of you, I want you to look at the part which is written in Xhosa, page 13 of the application, you will see it ringed on the top right hand side of the page.
	Have you got the page?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, I've got number 13, page 13.

MR BRINK: Read paragraph 10(a).  You can read it to yourself obviously.  The translation which I have is not very elegant, but what you said there I was trying to prevent the battle between the residents, because there was some signs of that.  I presume you mean that you were anticipating trouble between residents supporting the ISU and the SDU's?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, that is what I said exactly.  It is true that I was trying to prevent the war between the residents and these groups of people.

MR BRINK: And you went on unfortunately they were planning to kill me.

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: That is what needs to be corrected in that statement, it is not exactly what I said.  I am not talking about myself.  I am talking about the SDU's because if these people can kill us, they will do whatever they want with the community and all those municipal councillors who were appointed by that regime were going to be in charge of our communities, if they killed the SDU's.

MR BRINK: Do I understand the ISU's were endeavouring the hamper the activities of the Self Defence Units and that the people as a whole supported the SDU's?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: So they were planning to kill you or your comrades, or other members of the SDU?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: The people who were planning to destroy the SDU's, it was the efforts of the ISU's who were collaborating with some of the people from our communities.
	So they wanted the communities to worship those councillors that they did not vote for, so now it was apparent that the ISU's did not have a way to fulfil their mission if the SDU's were around.

MR BRINK: The vast majority of the population supported the SDU's isn't that correct?  I mean the population in the township?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: That is correct sir.

MR BRINK: There were very, very few, you can probably count it on the fingers of one hand, who supported the ISU isn't that correct?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, I will agree with you there.

MR BRINK: When did it come to your knowledge or when did you begin to believe that Mr Mpisane was an informer?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I can say I began to believe that he was truly an informer on the 27th of August because when these ISU's came, they didn't know our faces, they couldn't identify us.
	But Ngxobongwana went to them and he even told the residents that they mustn't allow them to arrest me.  Really when they came to arrest me, the residents began to fight until Mr Peter and the Magistrate came and said he would like to see our leader and the residents themselves decided to go with me when I was arrested.
	And now it was clear that he was an informer and the residents themselves could see.

MR BRINK: This was on the 27th of August when you appeared in the Magistrate's court, is that correct?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes sir that is correct.

MR BRINK: That was on the day when you saw Mr Mpisane by chance at court?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes sir, that is correct.

MR BRINK: What was he doing there?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Since then each time we would go to court, they were there with Mr Rossouw.  Those were the people who were in charge there of the cases.
	And they used to caucus and the residents could see them caucusing with these people.  So it was clear that he was an informer.

MR BRINK: Was it your evidence that you saw Mr Mpisane at court in the company of policemen from Khayelitsha?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, that is my evidence.  Because they also got into the kombi and we saw them alighting from the police casspir, that was Mr Mpisane and the policeman.