Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, he has told us that there was moonlight on the day in question.  Now reading to him what the report says - and he insists that there was moonlight, can you really take the matter any further?

MR LOWIES: I would like to suggest the following to you, Sir - I hear what you say, Chair - on page 18, under paragraph 4.1.2 he comes to the conclusion, the compiler of this report
"That the moon therefore did not contribute very significantly to the overall illumination within the township."
This is the gist of what he says in a lot of pages.  So I want to put it to you that the impression that you want to create that the moon supplied a lot of illumination is not correct, it could be negated for the purposes of identification.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, that's not what the report says, it says
"The moon did not contribute very significantly.  There were Apollo lights ..."
And on top of it, if one looks at the report very briefly, it seems that there was random sampling done.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if I understand what's being put to him only with regard to the moon, it doesn't deal with the Apollo light because this witness, as I recall his evidence, he relied on the moonlight and the Apollo lights.  There's nothing the witness can say ...(indistinct) concerning the contents of this document.

MR BERGER: Unless there was a specific test done in front of his house, perhaps that might help.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue, Mr Lowies.

MR LOWIES: Do you still say that the moon provided sufficient illumination ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He has said yes, he did.

MR LOWIES: I want to put to you, Sir, that you are not telling the truth, as a matter of fact it was quite dark there and you are creating the impression that you were able to see things which you could not.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is not true, the people who wrote here wrote as they thought appropriate because they don't want a black person and that's it.

MR LOWIES: You can't say that.  I want to put to you the following as well.  The light of the Apollo light is quite far away from you, isn't it so?  And as you were standing - sorry, you want to answer?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying I can bet today I can take you in the evening, take you to my home, nobody will kill you, you will see the lights.

MR LOWIES: Yes, it's not disputed that there's an Apollo light, but listen to the question.  Is it not correct that ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying the light goes through my window.

MR LOWIES: Is it not correct that as you're standing in your house, the Apollo lights are approximately to your left?  As a matter of fact you indicated to us the angle yesterday - just listen please, you indicated the angle more-or-less the same as you are sitting to Mr Strydom, in another regard where Mtwana Zulu was, not so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said that yesterday.  The light flashes through towards this direction.  It is very bright, very bright and at round about 10, when there is no coal smog or smoke, it's very bright.

MR LOWIES: We'll get to that, let's just get to the angle.  Do you agree that as you are standing it's approximately to your left, as you were standing there at the door, the same angle as you are sitting towards Mr Strydom, which is about 30 degrees?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You see it's very, very tall, it comes from Botswana and flashes through towards this direction.

MR LOWIES: Would you agree it's approximately to your left-hand side, 30 degrees as you were standing at the window yes, or no?  The 30 degrees is the angle that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, these degrees are not going to take us anywhere.  If you want to put it to this witness that on the day in question there was insufficient light to enable him to identify or see anything, just put that to the witness.  This witness knows nothing about the degrees, how many degrees the Apollo light was.

MR LOWIES: I hear what you say, Chairman, however I must state that it is quite important to know at what angle he was looking because of various factors.
	So can I just ask you this; as you were standing you were actually looking more-or-less in the direction of the light?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As I am looking at you now.

MR LOWIES: Right.  Now Sir, if that is the situation, you were actually looking into the light of the Apollo.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The light comes from that direction but the light is cast all over.

MR LOWIES: And you know that if you are looking into the light you have a problem with specifying things in front of the light, like for instance the Koyoco, not so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You cannot stare at the pole directly, that is impossible.

MR LOWIES: And the Koyoco was higher than the level at which you were standing, correct?  What do you say?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: It was higher than the level at which he was.

MR LOWIES: The people inside the Koyoco, not so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The Koyoco has windows on the sides.

MR LOWIES: And you had to look up towards those windows from where you were standing, not so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It is not very high, no.  I did not check just how tall it was, I do not know.

MR LOWIES: I put it to you that you had to look up and as a result you would have been blinded by the light from the Apollo, making it impossible for you to see people inside so that you can identify them as being black or white.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I know white people.  I saw them.

MR LOWIES: Did you only see their faces to make sure that they're white or could you see anything else from there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Just as I see your face.

MR LOWIES: Only the faces?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not see the body, I just saw the faces.

MR LOWIES: Could you make out whether they had beards or moustaches, or were they clean-shaven?   Could you make out?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I had no time to check whether they were clean-shaven or they had beards, I just saw a white face.

MR LOWIES: Could you see whether they had long hair or short hair?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't have time to look whether they were clean-shaven or whether they had beards, all he saw were the white faces.  I mean, can you take the matter further than that?

MR LOWIES: Chair, I heard what you say.  I have a bit of a problem in that unfortunately it's my instructions to test his powers of observation and that would be relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: But if he was not able to tell us whether he was clean-shaven or whether they had beards, do you expect him to tell us?

MR LOWIES: I get the point, I'll withdraw the question.
	Now Sir, when you looked at Mr Zulu, my client, who you say was there and which is denied, is it not so that he was actually standing in front of the Apollo light, far away but between you and the Apollo light?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I will repeat what I said yesterday.  When they left Buwa's house he stood on the lawn and called out to Dodudu Morena and Lucky.

MR LOWIES: It doesn't answer the question.  Was he between you and the Apollo light? - in the same line.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That Apollo light cast a light all over the area because it is high up.

MR LAX: Mr Baloyi, please just listen to the question.  Was he - this is Mtwana, was he between where you were and where the Apollo light is?  Just a simple yes or no is all we need.  We're not testing the light, we just want to know where he was positioned. That's all you're being asked.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The Apollo light is a distance away.  What I'm saying is that there was sufficient light on our street, Bafokeng Street and he was standing about there.

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR LOWIES: Sorry.  Is it not so that the light was actually shining from the top, behind him towards you, as I have demonstrated to you?