Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, you were here at the hearing yesterday.   Is that correct?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I was here.

MR TIPP: You were here at the time that the video was played, that was made at Library Gardens on that day?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I saw the video.

MR TIPP: Now although you did not get to Library Gardens, and you didn't hear the speech of Mr Humphrey Ndlovu yourself, you saw him on video yesterday speaking?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I heard him speaking.

MR TIPP: You heard people in attendance there, cheering him for what he said?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I heard that.

MR TIPP: If you had been there and had listened with your own ears to what he said, would you also have applauded him for his words?

MR NGOBESE: If need be, I was going to cheer.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I don't want their to be ambiguity.  You say `if need be, you were going to cheer'.   Would you have cheered had you been there?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, if it was necessary for me to do that, I would have.

MR TIPP: You certainly would not have left that meeting because you were in disagreement with what Mr Humphrey Ndlovu had had to say?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR TIPP: So you were happy then with the idea that the people of South Africa would have to pass the spears of the Amabutho, of the IFP before they could succeed in holding the Elections on 27th April 1994?

MR TIPP: : Mr Chairman, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please answer.

MR TIPP: : Mr Chairman, I object to that question.   It is not put factually correct.  I get the impression that it has been put as if this witness had been there at that time.   If it had been put in that sense, then I object to the question.   If it is not, then I'll accept the reply.   But the impression I get, it was put that you were happy - that is in the past tense.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.   Just in case there is any confusion, will you clear that up?

MR TIPP: Certainly Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ngobese, let me just take it slowly please.   We know that you were not at Library Gardens on 28th March 1994.

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I wasn't there.

MR TIPP: We know that you saw yesterday, on video, the speech that was made or part of the speech that was made by Humphrey Ndlovu?

MR NGOBESE: I heard it, but let me explain here.   When he was talking, I did not know that he was addressing that meeting at Library Gardens.   It is my first time I hear that.   I thought that it was an old meeting that was once held some time ago, but I wasn't aware of the fact that it was that very meeting that he was addressing.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I think it was perfectly clear from the video and what was said, but you can take it from me that Mr Humphrey Ndlovu made that speech, at Library Gardens, at the meeting that you had intended to attend.

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I hear that.

MR TIPP: You have already confirmed that you were in agreement with what he said?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I was in agreement.

MR TIPP: Now let me put it again to you - that you were therefore in agreement with the words of Mr Ndlovu which were to the effect that the people of South Africa would have to pass by the spears of the Amabutho and the IFP, before they could hold the Election they wanted to hold on 27th April 1994?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is correct.   He was telling the truth if that were the needs.   If the needs of the team were not being fulfilled, I agree with him.

MR TIPP: In that case the Amabutho were prepared to make war with their spears.   Do you agree?

MR NGOBESE: That might have happened if it was said it should happen.

MR TIPP: Now, was it not the case Mr Ngobese, that it was precisely with those thoughts in mind that all of you, including yourself, came from Nancefield Hostel to Park Station and on to Shell House on that day?

MR NGOBESE: It was not like that as you have heard that he was addressing at the Library Gardens and some of us were already at hospital.   He was talking about something that was going to happen, if the needs of the King were not being fulfilled.   That day we were not attacking.   We were not up to any evil.

MR TIPP: Let us go back for a moment or two Mr Ngobese, to the meeting at Nancefield that was addressed by Induna Mbatha.

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR TIPP: You have told the Committee thus far that what you can recall is that Induna Mbatha said that you must go to Library Gardens to listen to the King because there were concerns, and the King wanted to continue to be the King of KwaZulu and not to be discarded.

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it's correct.

MR TIPP: Was that a meeting attended by a great number of the persons who reside at Nancefield Hostel?

MR NGOBESE: Those who were already back from work did attend.

MR TIPP: Can we take it that there were hundreds and hundreds of persons who attended that meeting?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, the majority was there.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, you have passed Standard Nine.   I take it that you can make some sort of estimate of the number of people who attended.   Can you help us?

MR NGOBESE: I may estimate, just 300 upwards.

MR TIPP: This meeting, I would think and you can assist me if I'm wrong, would not have been just a meeting of a minute or two.   It would have gone on for some time?

MR NGOBESE: It did not take long because whatever was being said there, we knew that very well that the King was fighting for his rights that he should not be discarded.  And another thing that was mentioned there is that we shall not come with dangerous weapons.  All we should have are the traditional weapons and after that, we dispersed, we left.

MR TIPP: Was it Induna Mbatha who said to you, you mustn't arm yourselves with dangerous weapons?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is true.

MR TIPP: Is it usually the practice that when the Amabutho moves out that they, in fact, do carry dangerous weapons including firearms?

MR NGOBESE: No, that would be said at every meeting that we should not be armed with dangerous weapons, but we should have the traditional weapons with us.

MR TIPP: Just try and recall what else might have been said by Induna Mbatha at that meeting.

MR NGOBESE: He went on to tell us the routes and the programme of the day;  the time, as to what time we should take off from the station and in which train we will board, and the estimation of our arrival time in Johannesburg.

MR TIPP: What did he tell you about the route?

MR NGOBESE: He told us about the fact that we leave Nancefield Station, get into a train, first stop train to Park Station in Johannesburg and we will proceed.   The fact that we will find policemen in Hook Street, he did not say that to us.

MR TIPP: Did he mention that you would go down Hook Street and turn into De Villiers Street and go straight along to Library Gardens?

MR NGOBESE: He did not say that.

MR TIPP: What did he say was the problem of the day?

MR NGOBESE: The problem or the programme of the day?

MR TIPP: What time was the rally to be held at Library Gardens, do you remember?

MR NGOBESE: I don't remember the time but as a Nancefield resident, we always preferred the morning but I don't quite remember the time, the exact time as to what time it was going to commence - whether 10 or 11.   I don't remember him saying that, may be he did say but I did not catch that.

MR TIPP: Was anything said about the ANC in the course of that meeting?

MR NGOBESE: I don't remember anything being said about ANC.

MR TIPP: Was anything said about discipline along the route and that people should obey the instructions of any police officers?

MR NGOBESE: We would be escorted by the police each time we undertake a journey, as we found the police at Hook Street and pointed us to go to which direction, that is Noord Street.   Police were there and told us to go down Noord.   They usually lead us according to my knowledge.

MR TIPP: I'm just asking about the meeting at Nancefield.   Were you reminded that in the event of any police officer giving you instructions as to where you were to go, that you should obey?