Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

CHAIRPERSON: This meeting ought to have started not later than 10 o'clock.  We regret the delay that has been caused, and even though there might be some explanation as to why there was this delay, nevertheless we are particularly unhappy and disappointed that such a delay should be allowed to occur.  We will be taking steps to ensure that an attempt is made on behalf of the people who are responsible for bringing applicants to these hearings cooperate more effectively tomorrow and the day after and the day after until we finish these hearings.
	The Committee that is going to hear the application this morning of Mr Ngcobo comprises of myself as Chairman, Mr Wynand Malan a senior attorney and Advocate Motata on my right.
	Will counsel announce themselves?

MR DE KLERK: As the it pleases the Commission, my name is Lourens de Klerk for the attorney firm, Nel, Kotze and van Dyk
in Durban.  I appear on behalf of the applicant.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, can you hear me?  It's R B Brink, Evidence Leader for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, I'm given to understand that the dependants and relatives of those who died and those who were victims of the activities of the applicant are present, they are?

MR BRINK: Yes, Mr Chairman, they are at the back of the hall.  I have been able to consult with the bulk of them and they have informed me that they are opposed to this application being granted.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk, are you ready to proceed?

MR DE KLERK: That's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you call your applicant?

MR DE KLERK: I call Mr Goodwill Ngcobo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngcobo, are you prepared to take the oath?

GOODMAN MUSAWAKHE NGCOBO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr de Klerk?

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ngcobo, is it correct that you are still at this stage serving a life imprisonment sentence at the Westville Prison in Durban?  Did you hear the question?

MR NGCOBO: Yes

MR DE KLERK: Is it also correct that you were born on the 25th of December 1961 at Harding, South Coast?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: This area that you were born in, just explain to the Commission was this a rural area or an urban area?

MR NGCOBO: It is a rural area.

MR DE KLERK: Just repeat that, was it a rural area?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  It is a rural area.

MR DE KLERK: This area, was it still under the tribal structures?  What I mean by that is inkosis, indunas, tribal policemen and so forth?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  It is under the chief.  There are also indunas.

MR DE KLERK: The South Coast area, Harding, Port Shepstone, iZingolweni, that area, is that still the situation today?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, it is still the same.

MR DE KLERK: When you grew up there, were you taught in the traditional customs of the Zulu?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I grew under the Zulu culture.  This means that I believe in traditional set up, like in being under the chiefs and indunas.  I believe in everything made by a Zulu, that is customary.

MR DE KLERK: Did you go to school?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, partially.

MR DE KLERK: When you left school, what did you do?

MR NGCOBO: I worked at many places.  Here in Durban, Free State and in the mines.

CHAIRPERSON: In what year did you leave school?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember when I left school.  It is long time ago, in the 70's.

MR DE KLERK: Is it also correct that you were the youth leader at iZingolweni?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: And iZingolweni is between Port Shepstone and Harding?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: How did it come to be that you became to be involved in politics?

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't said that he has become involved in politics, he just said that he was a youth leader.

MR DE KLERK: A youth leader.  Well can you just explain to the Commission what does being a youth leader entail?

MR NGCOBO: It means bringing the youth in your area together, for the political party you in, and show them the way that they have to live as young people.

CHAIRPERSON: Who elected you as the youth leader?

MR DE KLERK: By the youth itself.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

MR NGCOBO: In 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long were you supposed to be, was it for one year or two years or six months?

MR NGCOBO: That was not said.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a constitution that elected you?

MR NGCOBO: We were working under the chairmanship of the late Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: He was chairman of what?

MR NGCOBO: He was just a chairman of the Izingolweni area.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't told us what organisation.

MR NGCOBO: My organisation is the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this a branch of the IFP?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry about this but I'd just like this picture cleared up.  He was chairman of the branch of the IFP, what branch is this?

MR NGCOBO: I was in the youth and Mr Zulu was a chairman of the whole community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no but I'm talking about chairman of what area, what town, what place?

MR NGCOBO: Zulu was in Emndeni and I was in Nkulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chairman, your chairman.

MR NGCOBO: Izingolweni in Emndeni.

CHAIRPERSON: No, my question is that Mr Zulu was the chairman and what to know of which area he was the chairman?

MR NGCOBO: He was a Chairman in iZingolweni in Emndeni area.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you.  Just to clarify that point, iZingolweni is a very big area, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: And iZingolweni is divided in several Wards?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Like the Nkulu Ward, Shobashobane and so on?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Were you a youth leader of one of these Wards or the whole area?

MR NGCOBO: I was in Nkulu and Mdalane.

CHAIRPERSON: How many leaders were there with you in that area?

MR NGCOBO: It was Zulu, and Njobo Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else?

MR NGCOBO: Mbambo.

CHAIRPERSON: So they occupied the same position that you occupied, they were leaders like you were?

MR NGCOBO: They were in their own areas because there are 8 places.

MR DE KLERK: Who was your superior?

MR NGCOBO: Late Zulu was my leader and he was followed by Sipho who is now arrested, and James Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear the answer.

MR NGCOBO: My brother who is now arrested in Pietermaritzburg.  James Zulu was in charge of the whole area.  James is outside here.

MR DE KLERK: Just to clarify that to the Commission, the leader of the South Coast at that time for the IFP was James Zulu, for the whole South Coast?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: During the time 1991, the early '90's there was a lot of turmoil and violence in the South Coast, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  There was a lot of violence.

MR DE KLERK: What was the reason for this according to you?

MR NGCOBO: ANC and IFP were fighting for control of the place.

MR NGCOBO: Were there ever attacks on the IFP dominated areas?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, there were lots of attacks.

MR DE KLERK: Was there any attacks on ANC people?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  Although at a certain stage I ran away and looked for refuge at the Police Station in Izingolweni.

MR DE KLERK: At one stage your mother was killed, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: When was this?

MR NGCOBO: I think it was in 1990 or 1991.

MR DE KLERK: Can you tell the Commission briefly what happened?