Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

CHAIRPERSON: Well, they came with a proposal in terms of which they were going to patrol block A and you were going to patrol block F.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accept this proposal?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Firstly we accepted it but after quite some time we felt, no it's not doing us any good because of the following reasons:  even though block A was towards the direction from the location, there were so many incidents that were taking place in block A towards the bridge.
	Towards early hours of the morning you would find that some people are found there lying down injured  around block A.

CHAIRPERSON: We intend taking the lunch adjournment now.  Would this be an appropriate moment or would you want to cover certain aspects of the evidence in chief first?

MR MADASA: We can adjourn Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We can adjourn.  Yes, very well.  We rise and reconvene at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Having regard to the somewhat unbearable heat that is generated by these lights, I think you gentlemen are free to take off your coats if you so wish.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, I want you to clarify this once and for all, the new SDU and the ANC Youth League did they become one after the Youth League had separated itself from you?

CHAIRPERSON: No, but I think his evidence amounts to saying that these were just two separate entities.
	Isn't that right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I would like to clarify again.  The members of the ANC Youth League, they separated themselves from us, they went to join the self-defence unit that was being formed at the time in block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so the old and the new self-defence unit were to separate entities?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: So, after this new formation, Buthelezi's formation, is it correct that there were no two SDU formations but it was the old SDU to which you belonged and the new organisation which comprised the ANC Youth League members and the SDU's of Buthelezi?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No, they were not combined.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And they called themselves self-defence units?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I would say so because their activities were almost similar although they were different there and there.

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson.
	Would you say there was a new SDU or would you say the ANC Youth League was then the new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I've said before, Mr Buthelezi, as he endeavours to form a new SDU, he called for volunteers so that the self-defence unit is formed in Moleleki block F.
	In other words I'm trying to say people who got out were there as the ANC Youth League, still the former members of the old ones.

MR MAPOMA: Were there any ANC Youth League members who did not form part of the new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Please repeat your question again.

MR MAPOMA: Were there any ANC Youth League members who did not form part of the new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I will say they were there.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MADASA: Do you know of a member of the ANC Youth League which joined Buthelezi's new defence unit?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I have one in mind.

MR MADASA: Who?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The one that I know very well who separated himself from us was Mavuso Modishwa who used to be a member.  That's the one I'm quite sure about who left us for the other unit.

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, this gadget is very sensitive.  We would request you as far as possible to please not fiddle with it with your hands, it's very sensitive, thank you.

MR MADASA: Is there someone who is present here at the hearing whom you know who was a member of the ANC Youth League and joined Buthelezi's new unit?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, how is he supposed to know who knows?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, he knows, he says there is somebody.  I want him to tell the Committee the name of that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: There is one.

MR MADASA: Who is he?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Tusanang, Lucky Pinikele, Mtetwa.

MR MADASA: The members of the ANC Youth League, after they'd separated, why did they leave?  Do you know?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Mr Chair, these members of the ANC Youth League, as I arrived in Moleleki Section 2, besides Mavuso Modishwa, the rest resided in the shacks of the people who left them as a result of being assaulted. Some shacks that were still under construction, they occupied those shacks.  The thing that makes me to say that is even their parents I don't know.  I knew them after.

MR MADASA: Were they - were these members people who all came from Katlehong or did they come from other areas as well?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I will say this Chairman, they came from different places like Tokoza and various sections.

MR MADASA: Now was there anything wrong about the fact that they came from different areas?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I think there was something wrong.  Firstly, Katlehong or Katorus at large was surrounded by violence.  Even Moleleki Extension 2, people came to occupy some houses in Moleleki Extension 2 after violence erupted.  So all that was highly unacceptable.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were these people who came to occupy houses in Moleleki?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I'm referring to these youth that called themselves ANC Youth League.  The youths I'm referring to is ANC Youth League.  At night they would show their true colours.

MR MADASA: Now, is it correct that there was also a difference - I'm referring now before you separated with the Youth League, it was also a difference along the fact that the members of the Youth League were people who came from the township, were urban and some of you were originating from the rural, did that cause a division?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I will agree with you.

MR MADASA: Sorry, sorry, don't explain.  If you agree I'm going to ask you a question.  Now if that is so, what was perceived as wrong or as undesirable from their point of view about you, those who came from the rural?  What is it that they did not like about you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I took it that even though I joined the ANC and was fighting for freedom there were some other things that were being pursued by other people like the youth, that we did not partake of and that led to the enmity that transpired thereof.

MR MADASA: Mr Sonti, I want you to be specific.  What was with your conduct that caused them not to like you?  What are these things you are referring to, what did you do?  How did you behave yourself so that they did not like you?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: There's nothing that we did as far as I am concerned, that would have made them not like us but what we noted was that they were stubborn in things that they were doing.  They would not like to be stopped and they also said they cannot be stopped by people who come from rural areas.

MR MADASA: What were they doing?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As my co-accused has already said, that some activities that transpired in Moleleki Extension 2 were the ones behind them.

MR MADASA: Do you recall any particular incidents wherein you were present that the ANC Youth League members caused trouble?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I remember very well.  Can you relate that to the Committee?