Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ADV JORDI: I understand further that my client went to your house with the Soweto Women's Committee kombi, collected the youths and then made arrangements for their residence in houses around Soweto, pending them being removed from Soweto for their own safety, do you know about that?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I am not quite clear, were those youths in my house when she collected them?

ADV JORDI: I think that they came to your house asking for your assistance, because you knew that you were not meant to leave your house at night, and in fact you would have difficulties if you were found with these youths, you contacted Dudu Chili and she then made the arrangements, Dudu Chili, she then made the arrangements for them to be accommodated?

CHAIRPERSON: I think I am changing my ruling.  I think pronounce it as is most comfortable for you.

ADV JORDI: Sorry, it is written down as Chili and to pronounce it, it doesn't come naturally to me.  I apologise to the Committee and to my client.  Do you remember this incident?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I can't remember that, but it is possible because Chili was the one who was next to me.

ADV JORDI: Then I understand that late in January 1989, there was a problem after a Mr Ikaneng pointed out to Mandela United Football Club members, who had been responsible for the attack on him.  Sibusiso Chili, I understand that Lerathodi Ikaneng pointed out to you who he said had been responsible for the attack on him, there was a dispute, it was then arranged that they would go to Dudu Chili's house in order to talk and to try and sort out the problems.
 They went there voluntarily.  They were asked to stop misbehaving and you were contacted as being somebody who they would recognise the moral authority of as well as Sam Ndou and various other civic leaders in the area and asked to speak to these youths in order to stop them from misbehaving.  Do you remember that incident?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, I had spoken to some of the youth, but I don't remember getting you know, a grown to speak to, because I was not allowed.

ADV JORDI: Yes.

ALBERTINA SISULU: But I have spoken to them as individuals when they are brought to me, and I used to warn them.

ADV JORDI: Right.  Do you know that in 1990 Dudu Chili met your husband at the ANC head quarters, do you know anything about that incident?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No, I wouldn't know that.  I don't remember.

ADV JORDI: No further questions for this witness, thank you very much.

ADV JORDI: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes,  Mr Soller?

MRPETER SOLLER: Peter Soller on behalf of Zakhele Mbatha.  Mrs Sisulu, in your statement that you made at paragraph, forgive me Mr Commissioner, one of my pages are missing, paragraph 5.3, will you have a look at that please.  You say it was standard procedure that we took finger prints of male patients. I took the finger prints of this patient.
 Is that correct Mrs Sisulu?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Very right.

MRPETER SOLLER: Why only finger prints of male patients?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, that is what I found the Doctor doing with the previous nurse.  I was carrying the duties that was left to me by the previous nurse.

MRPETER SOLLER: So when did you start working for the late Dr Asvat?

ALBERTINA SISULU: 1983.

MRPETER SOLLER: And on arrival there, that was his procedure?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Of course.

MRPETER SOLLER: Had you ever seen that done by any other Doctor in that area?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I have never worked with any private Doctor, except the hospital.

MRPETER SOLLER: Okay.  You told the Commission about the fact that there was a mother, son relationship between the late Dr Asvat and yourself, is that correct?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, quite correct.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did Dr Asvat mention to you the problems that he was having with Stompie?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Not even a single day, never.

MRPETER SOLLER: Would you find that surprising in retrospect?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Of course yes.

MRPETER SOLLER: Because he would have, as I understood your evidence, he would have spoken to you about everything?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Even the other cases that he saw when I am off, he has never told me what took place.

MRPETER SOLLER: Sorry say again please?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Even the cases he used to see when I am off, he used never to come back and say what took place.  He never told me about Stompie.

MRPETER SOLLER: One is almost driven to the conclusion that it was a deliberate omission on the part of the late Dr Asvat not to discuss Stompie with you?

ALBERTINA SISULU: He never did.

MRPETER SOLLER: Never did?  I won't be long Mr Chairperson.  It is said in one of the affidavits that Stompie was not a well child, did you have any knowledge of Stompie's illness?

ALBERTINA SISULU: I didn't know anything about Stompie until the time of his death, when it was in the papers.

MRPETER SOLLER: Right, Mrs Sisulu the last but one question or perhaps even the last question, is this, do you yourself with the benefit of many years of hindsight, find it remarkable that senior police officials had never bothered to interview you about the death of the late Dr Asvat?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Well, I wouldn't think really that was a mistake because the death of Dr Asvat, I was the chief witness in Dr Asvat's case.  So all that I said really is what was taken by the court.  I was the witness in Dr Asvat's case.

MRPETER SOLLER: But you are aware that for a long time, there has been continuous dissatisfaction with the investigation into Dr Asvat's murder, are you aware of that?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes.

MRPETER SOLLER: And do you not find it strange that the police never bothered to come to the person most closely physically associated with the death?

ALBERTINA SISULU: There you are, they never came to me.

MRPETER SOLLER: That is all you can say?

ALBERTINA SISULU: That is all.

MRPETER SOLLER: Thank you Mrs Sisulu, thank you Mr Commissioner.

MRPETER SOLLER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes.

MR KADES: Norman Kades on behalf of the Asvat family.  Mrs Sisulu, I wonder whether you can be of some assistance to clarify.  Patients and visitors to the surgery of the late Doctor would enter the surgery through the front door, is that correct?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: And the front door would then lead direct into the waiting room, is that correct?

ALBERTINA SISULU: No, it is not.  It is the front room, the door that leads to the examination room is the Doctor's room and further down the passage is the dispensary where I used to be.

MR KADES: Yes, but the room that one would immediately enter on passing through the front door, would be which room?

ALBERTINA SISULU: If you get through the front door, you would enter the Doctor's room, the examination room.

MR KADES: The Doctor's room, the examination room?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, before you get to the dispensary right at the back.

MR KADES: And where was the waiting room?

ALBERTINA SISULU: In front.  The reception was right the front room.

MR KADES: Yes, so on entering through the front door, one would arrive at the reception, is that the reception room, is that correct?

ALBERTINA SISULU: When you enter the first room, you go down and the first door you open is the examination room, the Doctor's examination room.

MR KADES: Yes, but before one goes to the examination room, is there not another room?

ALBERTINA SISULU: There is a room, a back room where I used to take the patient's name, admit the patients.

MR KADES: Where would the patients who were waiting to be seen, where would they sit?

ALBERTINA SISULU: In the reception room, the first room.

MR KADES: Yes, as one opens the door?

ALBERTINA SISULU: To the Doctor's ...

MR KADES: One would then find where the patients would ordinarily sit and wait to be seen?

ALBERTINA SISULU: Yes, that is right.

MR KADES: And did you have a view of that area of people who were coming in through the door?