Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-07

FUNDISILE GULENI: We could have but the problem was that at that time we were busy engaged in activities in canvassing for the elections.  Now the pace was not that much faster because we knew that at the end of the day we would call out the investigation.  We kept on receiving the informations about suspicions but we didn't move to an extent of going to these areas and it, according to us, needed thorough planning because we regarded these areas as dangerous areas to us and we regarded as the people who can be in the hit list if we are the key leaders of the area.

ADV SANDI: Can one infer from what you've just said that it was not a matter of urgency to investigate these rumours and suspicions?  It was not urgent, it could carry on with other things and do it later?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Not necessarily doing it later, it was urgent but now we were - it was not as urgent as, I don't know how to put it, it was urgent but just that we were still engaged in other activities.  We didn't say we'd suspend the question of investigating but that we haven't yet come up with tangible things because we kept on receiving the information and further asking these people who are forwarding the information.  That was part of the investigation but we haven't moved to the extent of visiting the scene because we thought that it needed thorough planning before we would directly visit the area as well we assumed that is dangerous.

ADV DE JAGER: Now you assumed there's danger in those areas, what danger, could people be killed?

FUNDISILE GULENI: For us to go and investigate without having planned would put us at a risk if we found if it is true that these people were AWB members.  They wouldn't like a situation where they will be surveilled or investigated, all those things.

ADV DE JAGER: But your people staying there, weren't they in danger of being killed?  They've seen these people, they report to you?

FUNDISILE GULENI: First of all that camp was regarded as the camp which was used as a venue for these missions and the people, there were people who were staying in the nearby villages there so according to us it wouldn't be safer to just go in that area without having first planned to ....[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: But how long would it take you to plan?  You've planned the murder of these people within an hour or two hours.  Why couldn't you plan an investigation with months passing since you've got the information?

FUNDISILE GULENI: But we were in the process, like we were still engaged in other activities.  We didn't want to neglect other activities.

ADV DE JAGER: There wasn't even an election date fixed at that date, staged, so there was no urgency about the election?

FUNDISILE GULENI: But the process was promising that the date at the end of the day will be fixed.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, no I agree with you as far as - could you tell us, who gave you the information about these people, what's the names of your informants?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I couldn't recall the names of the people who gave the information but there were people coming from the villages outside town.

CHAIRPERSON: What did they say what were these people doing?  Is it these anti-revolutionary forces, what were they doing that was being complained of?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Ja, the people said these people used to gather in those coastal areas outside town and they used to see one John Costello from town to those areas and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: So what, what were they fearing or what were they complaining about?

FUNDISILE GULENI: There's nothing they were complaining about except that they were suspecting that now that Costello who is suspected to be AWB but because it's not only us who suspect Costello is AWB member, then they inferred that these gatherings have been attended by Costello could be AWB gatherings and it was a threat...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And what was wrong with that?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We felt we were threatened.

CHAIRPERSON: How?  What happened - okay let me ask this - who is we when you say "we felt we were threatened"?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I'm referring to myself and other leaders of the ANC like Pumelele.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you feel threatened?

FUNDISILE GULENI: We thought the mission of these people is to make it point that they destabilise the whole process towards transformation and we thought now, as the violence was carrying on now and again, we thought we would be one of the areas effected because AWB according to the way we regarded it was a structure which perpetrated violence so that's why we had a fear that if they carried on without having or without us taking steps towards informing our structures that there is this thing, I mean we are afraid that we will be in danger.

CHAIRPERSON: Up to that stage that had not done anything that would endanger you but there was merely an expectation that that would eventually happen?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes, up to that time you can say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SMUTS: If I can come back to what I was trying to pursue with you, the reason why you targeted Mpandi was because you had had reports that meetings had been held along that coast which was suspected of being right-wing meetings, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: And those meetings had been held at what stage?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I don't know I was never been there.

MR SMUTS: What was the most recent report of a meeting along that coast before the death of Mr Hani?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I can't recall in terms of time, it's hard for me really to ...[indistinct]

MR SMUTS: But in general terms, had there been a meeting a day before or a week before or a month before or was it a longer period than that?

FUNDISILE GULENI: In fact according to those reports they could not specify that yesterday there has been a meeting but they reported that a number of meetings that are held there, it was just an information in that sense, so I it's going to be hard for me to say it was that period before the incident.

MR SMUTS: When you decided to target Mpandi, did you go to the sources of this information to enquire as to whether there had been a recent meeting and whether people who had attended such meeting were in the area?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No.

MR SMUTS: Why not?

FUNDISILE GULENI: As I indicated before that we were disturbed about the killing of Comrade Chris Hani.  What - ja, as I've already indicated, so what we wanted, I mean due to the pressure or due to the time constraints we felt we must carry on the mission without even going to the area and do as you say.

MR SMUTS: So when you set off to Mpandi, you didn't know whether you were likely to find any people there who fitted your target description or not, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: At the time we went to Mpandi, we were not aware as to who we are going to find but we suspected that these people were alleged to be gathering there, perhaps we would find them there.

MR SMUTS: If you found people there, they might be people who fitted into your target group, is that what you expected?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Ja that's what we expected.

MR SMUTS: When you refer to second beach, what area are you referring to?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I'm referring to the area, the coastal area which is just near the town but it's an area which is a beach in town.

MR SMUTS: Between the time of Mr Hani's death and your actions on the 13th April 1993, did you receive any information regarding right-wing activity which would have enabled you to determine where your target group might be?

FUNDISILE GULENI: There was no other area except those I've mentioned.