Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

MS FALATI: No, that Stompie was an informer was told by these comrades from the - Parys, Tebiso and the others who were staying at Paul Verryn's place.  There was a time when we had to sit down and caucus ...[indistinct] Stompie being an informer - at Paul Verryn's place and that Paul Verryn knows about it.

MR SEMENYA: Now in fact my information is Bishop Verryn admonished you for describing Stompie as an informer.

MS FALATI: He said I must look after him, he's not an informer.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, but Bishop Verryn was stopping you from describing Stompie as an informer, is that factually correct?

MS FALATI: He was stopping me?  He was actually stopping Stompie from being taken by other cars who used to take Stompie away and come back, that was what I know from the mission - that was what was happening.

MR SEMENYA: Now you have described there was a meeting where Stompie was said to be an informer.

MS FALATI: ...[inaudible] and he was give a round bade with

<UNKNOWN>: "Don't go" because he used to go out and in - like a red and black gold, red and black badge.

MR SEMENYA: Let me ask it this way, who says to you for the very, very first time that Stompie is an informer?

MS FALATI: Those in the mission, those whom I was staying with in the mission.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to give us a name?

MS FALATI: I saw many - they were discussing, like Habutabi Sonabye who was staying in the mission because there was even a time when Habutabi was ...[indistinct]  they said they will baptise him in water.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] a name of the person from whom you heard for the first time that Stompie was an informer?

MS FALATI: There are so many - so many comrades, there were 35 and we used to go out and others would come in, go out and come in.

MR SEMENYA: Where they singing in a chorus when they told you this?

MS FALATI: They're singing?

MR SEMENYA: You keep saying

<UNKNOWN>: "All of them said it", now I want to understand whether it was in a chorus when they said it??

MS FALATI: It was not a chorus, they kept on telling us that he was - I had weapons in the house and he was actually coming in and going out.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] are saying the allegation that Stompie is an informer came for the first time from you.

MS FALATI: I didn't know Stompie - where he comes from, I came from the East and he came from Orange Free State and that is far away.  Those people who told us were the people from the Parys side, that is in Orange Free State which was far away from me.

MR SEMENYA: Who else was from Parys?

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR SEMENYA: Who else was from Parys?

MS FALATI: Pelo and others came from Parys and others have seen him in Parys.

MR SEMENYA: Well I want to put it to you that Pelo is not from Parys.

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR SEMENYA: Pelo is not from Parys.

MS FALATI: ...[inaudible] Pelo Simono was in Parys.  This area - as comrades we were rotating because we were running away from the police, we were rotating.  I'm from the East Rand and I've rotated the whole Soweto.  It was our - we didn't have to stay in one place for quite a long time, we had to rotate for security reasons.

MR SEMENYA: So, according to you when Katiza tells you that he has been sodomised, you took that complaint as a serious complaint, am I right?

MS FALATI: Yes, I'm listening.

MR SEMENYA: Am I correct?  You didn't think he was joking?

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR SEMENYA: You took the complaint by Katiza seriously, did you not?

MS FALATI: I took that complaint seriously but I discussed the complaint with the ...[indistinct] and then after discussing it Katiza threatened  - that's when I discovered that this White man will die and we will get into trouble as well.

MR SEMENYA: So I take you answer as

<UNKNOWN>: "Yes", you took it seriously.

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR SEMENYA: You took this complaint seriously?

MS FALATI: Yes, I took the complaint very seriously after discovering that the ...[indistinct] could stab Paul Verryn.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] this complaint to Mrs Mandela you had meant her to do something about the complain, is that right?

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR SEMENYA: When you took the complain to Mrs Madikizela Mandela you had meant her to do something about this complaint, is that right?

MS FALATI: Can you repeat yourself?

MR SEMENYA: You were seeking help when you communicated this problem to Mrs Madikizela Mandela, is that right?

MS FALATI: Help when?

MR SEMENYA: The reason you told this story to Mrs Madikizela Mandela is because you were seeking her to intervene in this problem you found Katiza in.

MS FALATI: Yes, I thought she was going to intervene in a leadership way, not in a brutal way.

MR SEMENYA: And the right thing was amongst others, to get medical attention for Katiza, is that right?

MS FALATI: Yes, he went to Doctor Asvat.

MR SEMENYA: And she says then that you can bring the little boy so that he can be taken to - you can bring the young man to be taken to a doctor?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: At that time you hadn't said to Mrs Madikizela Mandela that there are other young men who also complain of sexual abuse, is that right?

MS FALATI: I told her on our way back.

MR SEMENYA: Back from where?

MS FALATI: Back from Doctor Abu Asvat's surgery.

MR SEMENYA: Now, that's the point I'm making.

MS FALATI: You said?

MR SEMENYA: The first thing is Katiza is collected from the Manse because he must be taken to the doctor and at that time you're not saying to Mrs Madikizela Mandela

<UNKNOWN>: "There are other boys who have also been sexually abused"?

MS FALATI: I told Mrs Mandela that there is this Katiza who is complaining of sexual abuse.

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

MS FALATI: I told Mrs Mandela that there are other boys who are also victims or sexual abuse, who were actually practicing the sexual abuse amongst themselves.

MR SEMENYA: Who are other boys who are complaining of sexual abuse?

MS FALATI: That was Stompie Sepei.

MR SEMENYA: Who are the other boys?

MS FALATI: Stompie Sepei and these other two boys were actually caressing Stompie Sepei, that means they were practicing this homosexuality amongst themselves now.

MR SEMENYA: The information I have Ma'am is, you used to go into some argument with the young men at the Manse about house chores, is that right?

MS FALATI: About?

MR SEMENYA: House chores - who must wash dishes and who mustn't and at what point they must do it.

MS FALATI: There's nothing of that nature, that's a blatant lie.

MR SEMENYA: And you threatened them that if they do not comply you will get some boys to discipline them.

MS FALATI: Boys from where?  I did not know that part of her, I always took her as a leader.  Those who don't know her, they will keep glorifying her but as for me I will never because I know her true colours now.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] worry about getting close, so don't be over anxious.

MR SEMENYA: We hear that your daughter was also part of those who were assaulting the men - Stompie and them?

MS FALATI: Is that you who is saying that?

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] that your daughter also participated in the assault on Stompie and the other young men, what's your reaction?

MS FALATI: As I am saying, everybody was assaulting.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] yes or a no?

MS FALATI: Yes, that is the answer.

MR SEMENYA: So the only person who did not participate is yourself?

MS FALATI: I was surprised and I was shocked.  I was puzzled and highly surprised since Nfumulelo was young, even now she's using the youths.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] answer ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: That is my answer.

MR SEMENYA: You are the only one ...[inaudible]

MS FALATI: I participated in singing because she ordered me to sing as to drown the voices of those who were crying for help, so I participated too.

MR SEMENYA: You are the only one who did not participate in the assault?