Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

MR MOGASWANE: Yes, you are right, they were bribed.  They
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were given different amounts of money.   Many people built their houses not with bricks, with mud.

RUSSELL ALLY: Have you any idea what amount of money was offered to people to move?

MR MOGASWANE: I am not sure, I don't have an idea but they would tell us and boast we got a lot of money.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sir, when my colleague asked you just now what was actually happening in Moutse in terms of showing your resistance to incorporation you said there was very little demonstrating but yet a state of emergency was declared in this area.  A state of emergency is based on perhaps, I mean if we look at any areas in South Africa where states of emergency were declared, there was a great deal of unrest.  Was that what was happening in Moutse at the time?  I know there was a court case.  So that of course people went through the legal system as well, but there must have been other things happening that made the government declare a state of emergency.

MR MOGASWANE: I am not able to follow you, sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: I am trying to understand how much unrest there was in Moutse and the surrounding areas at the time for the government to have declared a state of emergency.

MR MOGASWANE: Are you saying to what extent, sir?   Yes, there was a lot of unrest and where I was staying after the police have killed one of us but in other areas people were killed.  We heard that at Gopakwane people were killed by Ndebeles, by Mbcoto.  At Matete people were assaulted and others died thereafter.  They were assaulted and killed by Mbcoto people.  My last question Mr Mogaswane is that in your statement you mention the names of certain police officials.  And you say that the warrant for your arrest was
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issued by Captain De Jager and Brigadier Lerm. Can you tell us a little more about that.

MR MOGASWANE: It was on the 30th June 1987.  Two white people arrived with one black policeman.  They brought a letter.  Then they said we are coming to take you because we have a warrant of arrest.  Then I said who wrote the letter.  Then they said this is your letter, coming from  Commissioner Lerm and De Jager that the instruction is to come and take you to the police station. You are arrested under the state of emergency.  Then they produced another paper that I should sign, as a sign of receipt of the letter.  It was around past three at the time, then they took me.  Among those police I knew this black policeman, it was Mr Ngambule who was working at Delson police station.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Mogaswane, just one question.  Your torturers, do you know any of them?  Did you know any of them?  The people who tortured you.  Do you know any of them or did you know any of them at the time?

MR MOGASWANE: I don't know anyone among them, sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much for your statement, sir.  It was very useful for the Commission to hear your understanding of the conflict and I am sure that your experiences were quite harrowing experiences, especially the torture which you experienced, the electrocution, the electric shock.   We thank you for coming to share that with us, speak to the Commission about it.  Thank you very much.