Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-12

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, yes briefly.
	You did indicate to me yesterday in Chambers and which is not on record and perhaps, if I may, you indicated to me that there is no need to hear argument on the matter of the late Col Taylor.  As I've indicated to you, Sir, in Chambers that I am currently taking instructions from the advocate, Adv Sonnekus who represents the office of the Commissioner of the Police.  I have not been instructed to take that matter any further as to now and it's for that reason, Sir, that I beg your indulgence for, seeing that the Cele matter is going to be heard on Wednesday and 
finalised, if I may, if those instructions come and if I'm asked to argue the point any further, to allow me a brief moment after the Cele matter perhaps to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: You will certainly be allowed.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you wish to say?

MS THABETHE: No, Mr Chair, except to say that with regard to the requirements of the Act, there is no opposition.  However,  Ms Mkhwanazi has indicated that she would like to address you on something and I would request that she be allowed that privilege.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MKHWANAZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Please give us your full names and spell it, so that we can record it.

MS MKHWANAZI: J-A-B--U  M-K-H-W-A-N-A-Z-I

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MKHWANAZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, what I would like to say is, I've just heard the evidence and I've got nothing against it because I've got no evidence to rebut it, all the questions which I had were for Col Taylor and unfortunately he's late.  What I would like to tell the people around here is that I was very, very angry and sad and hurting, but my anger has subsided now.  The reason is who made this to me and I'm very grateful to him, that is Mr Wasserman.  I spoke to him yesterday in the afternoon after these hearings and I said to myself "at least I've spoken to him, I've faced him, I've told what I felt about this and he told me that he is sad".   That is the reconciliation I was looking for, not this hearing, that he have to reconcile with the family.  I'm very happy that he said he's sad.  Of course this is war, that is what he said to me yesterday.  Of course it was, but unfortunately my brother did not get the chance to defend himself.  He was blindfolded, gagged, so he had no arms, so he was defenceless, he was killed like sheep going to an abattoir, but what I'm grateful about to these men, I don't know who is it, but one of them pointed out the grave.  I'm very grateful to that one otherwise we wouldn't know about this till today because we were looking high and low for this man since 1984, who left us when he was still young.  I'm grateful to you.  At least you did one good thing, that is Ubuntu, that is to show us the grave so we could bury the grave and we know where he is resting.
	So I forgive you Mr Wasserman.  You showed remorse to me.  You don't know how I felt yesterday.  At least my anger has subsided, I'm sad.  I know now that you are the one suffering, those who are dead are in peace now.  All the answers, all the questions I have were for Andy Taylor.  At least you owned up, you said "I killed him", you did not say that it was Col Taylor, because we knew that I wouldn't ask those questions to him, but you owned up.  Thank you.  I forgive you Wasserman.  That's all. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Do you wish to say anything?
	This brings to an end these hearings and the Committee will consider the application in due course and make known it's decision.  
	Before we adjourn, I think we should finalise precisely what we are going to do next.  Could you tell us which matter we are going to be dealing with next?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please tell us.

MS THABETHE: With the assistance of my colleague, Mr Visser and Mr Wagener, next week we will be doing the matters of Mamela, I'm not sure about the order, Ninela.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MS THABETHE: N-I-N-E-L-A

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: The Quarry Road incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon.

MS THABETHE: The Quarry Road incident.  Can I hand over this?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to start of with the Ninela matter that involves two of the present applicants, Mr du Preez and Mr Wasserman and a Mr Mwelase.

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, you appear in those matters as well, do you?  Mr du Preez, you appear for Mr du Preez?

MR NEL: No, Mr Chairman, I once again will either be representing the Estate or the Office of the Commissioner of police in the matter of the deceased, Mr Taylor.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So will you be appearing?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.  As presently advised, he hasn't fired me yet, so I'll act for du Preez again.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Wasserman?  What about Mwelase?

MR VISSER: We don't act for him, Mr Chairman and frankly we're not certain who is going to appear for him, but it is not us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Can I respond to that Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: I understand that Mr Mwelase has been served with Section 19 (4) notice, but we haven't had any contact with him.  I've spoken to our investigator, Mr Mbatha who said he will try to track him down.  However, there is a lawyer that has been instructed by us to represent him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  How is the lawyer going to contact Mr Mwelase?

MS THABETHE: I informed the lawyer that he will have to hear from me.  As soon as we've contacted him, I'll contact him.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Now then ...

MS THABETHE: But I've given him the bundle in the meantime.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, can we commence at 9.30 on Monday morning, instead of 10 o'clock?

MR VISSER: Monday is going to be a problem for us Chairperson, because we're flying out, to save costs, on Monday only.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MR VISSER: We're always ready to start and to spend longer hours, but Monday will be a problem for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll start at 10 o'clock then.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn till 10 o'clock on Monday morning.  We'll proceed with the Ninela matter.  Are we then in a position after that, time permitting, with the matter of Mamela and 4 others, the Quarry Road incident?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, and I would also like to add that the operation ...(indistinct) and Shabalala incident and Gordhan and Lalla will also be heard during that week as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And have you been able to communicate with the dependants of the deceased or the victims in the Ninela matter?

MS THABETHE: In the Ninela matter?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: They're aware Mr Chairman, they have to be here next week Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Very well.  At least we have some idea as to what we are going to do when we commence on Monday morning.  Thank you very much.  We will now adjourn until 10 o'clock on Monday morning.  The Committee will rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS