Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-25

OUPA KHOTLE: What I can say is this.  These Africans who came before the Committee they were liberation fighters, fighting for the Africans.  Their fight was not of PAC or Nkgwedi or May or ANC, however this was the African's call under oppression.  As I have been asked I am just here to testify on that.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Sir, and is that your testimony? Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU

JUDGE WILSON: Do you wish to ask any questions now or do you think we should take the adjournment?

MS THABETHE: Can I ask them now so that we finish the matter.  Just two questions.  I want to know from you, are you saying you regarded all farmers as part of the oppressors, all of them?

OUPA KHOTLE: I would like to repeat and say, the farmers, because I cannot recall that there were Africans who were oppressed who owned farms, they formed part of the oppression.

MS THABETHE: So you didn't use any criterion in choosing which farmers to attack, there was no criterion?  As long as you were a farmer you were being attacked, is that what you are saying?

OUPA KHOTLE: If you were a farmer and you formed part of the oppressive regime you were identified as a target with the
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understanding that the White community, I would refer to it as a para-military community where a school child, it is a fact, this is not what I say out of my mind, a school child is orientated by military fatigue at school they are taught all these army things.  This is not a new thing that I bring up here.  This did happen.  That is why I say they qualified to form part of the targets that we were aiming at.

MS THABETHE: Are you aware though that there were farmers who were not oppressors, I mean was your organisation aware of that fact?

OUPA KHOTLE: That?

MS THABETHE: That it's not all farmers who were oppressors, was your organisation aware of that fact?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Who were they Mrs Thabethe?   You must be careful with that question.  You say to the witness are you aware that there were farmers who were not oppressors, are you aware of them, of the farmers who were oppressors and those who were not oppressors?

MS THABETHE: Maybe I am not phrasing the question correctly, what I am trying to say is that ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: No I think re-phrase that question because you entangle yourself into a debate which we don't want to go into.

MS THABETHE: Okay I withdraw the question.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that all?

MS THABETHE: That's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

MR MTHEMBU: No further evidence Mr Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE WILSON: At this stage as a result of the enquiries which I requested be made this morning, we have been handed
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a copy of two affidavits which were obviously prepared for the purpose of the trial, have you seen those affidavits?

MR MTHEMBU: I have not Mr Chair, I have not seen them.

JUDGE WILSON: One is by a police officer who gives evidence about where he found a great many items, such as a brown wallet containing quite a lot of money, a card belonging to the deceased which was found in the possession of Mishek May.  A gold wrist watch with the deceased's name engraved on the back of it and similar articles.  They were found all over the place, in the possession of a number of people.  They have all been identified by Mrs May as belonging to herself or the deceased.  In these circumstances it seems to me we should firstly make the documents available to you so you can read them, if necessary take instructions and furthermore it would perhaps be desirable to obtain a copy of the judgment at the trial which may deal with all these points.  If not we should call these two people.
	In any event I feel Mrs May should be informed that this application is proceeding.  At the time that she made this affidavit she gave an address there.  Those people may well be able to find her, and it seems to me we should let the matter stand down for the moment, but it certainly will not be concluded today, depending on the attitude adopted by your clients.  They have now committed themselves to one version.  
	It also appears, I may be have misread the affidavit that some of the coins were sold and a cheque for R1 200 was found in the possession of, I think, Mr Leeuw.  So perhaps you would like to read them.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you for the indulgence Mr Chair, and for BLOEMFONTEIN HEARING	AMNESTY/FREE STATE
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standing down the matter for a short while to take instructions.  I am indebted to you and the Committee.

JUDGE WILSON: You could (...indistinct) to let the matter proceed on that basis, or do you wish to lead evidence at this stage?

MS THABETHE: I propose that the next matter be heard.

JUDGE WILSON: The next matter, yes.  Very well.  This matter will stand down.  When it is convenient to you could you mention it later during the course of the afternoon as to what exactly has happened.

MR MTHEMBU: I will do that Mr Chair, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair can I say something before you close the matter.  I have got reports from the Investigative Unit here and what I heard is that the Investigative Unit tried to get of a putative wife of the victim and they were told that she moved to England.  But unfortunately they didn't mention who the putative wife was.  I will find that out and come back to you, but I have got a feeling it is Mrs May.

JUDGE WILSON: I imagine it was and you can see she, one of her possessions that was stolen was a silver watch presented to her late - I presume it was her late husband celebrating 25 years service on one of the mines.  It appears that she is undoubtedly connected to the mines, one of the mining companies here who I have no doubt are paying her a pension and will have her address.  And when she made that affidavit she was staying at the mine manager's house and I think it was the President Steyn mine but you can look at the affidavit and see to find out what company it is and to find out from them where she is.  I have no doubt they will know.
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MS THABETHE: May I be excused.  I am handing over to....
MISS THABETHE EXCUSED
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