Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-03

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phumayo, are you aware of anything that occurred in 1993 that could be part of the violence or part of the conflict that had raged Davel, during the height of the violence in 1991 and 1992?  Are you aware of any such incidents?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Not at all Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any persons assaulted by alleged ANC members or supporters, because they were not such ANC members or supporters?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Not at the least.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any incidents wherein perceived IFP members, were assaulted or had their house burnt in 1993?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Phumayo, just maybe in conclusion, it is also my instructions from the applicant that because of the fact that the IFP as you yourself testified, were the minority in the particular township, they were on a regular basis victimised by the ANC and he also mentioned incidents of knife stabbing and wide scale of intimidation?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: I don't know if maybe you may allow me to elaborate very clearly again on that issue, because I have already hinted on it.
	I have said that the IFP was relatively very small and there was no reason for concern that the ANC was supposed to be having.  Therefore, you know, the issues which the ANC has been worried about and taking part in, as I said that the victim was in most instances, found chanting and everything like that, it was in toyi-toying, you know, boycotts, things like that, then it will be then when the question of the clash between IFP and ANC, where it will come, maybe if the ANC has called a boycott, then the IFP will say, no our people has to buy there, our people has to go to work if there are strikes, things like that.
	There was not specifically anything that I can remember now, that the ANC has been concerned with the IFP as such, it was relatively small as I have said before.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Mr Claassen, just to make a follow up on what Mr Phumayo said.  You say that there were instances where the ANC called for a boycott and the IFP would then not support that call for a boycott?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were such incidents in 1993?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, not in 1993.  1990, 1991, early 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1993, what would have forced the members of the ANC to chant and toyi-toyi because you have already stated that the deceased was only involved in the chanting and the toyi-toying as a member of the ANC.
	In what instances would he have been involved in such chanting and toyi-toying?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: I don't see any reason for him to be involved in such things like that, because as you will see, there were a lot of changes by that time.
	You know, the ANC was busy preparing for things like elections and whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you had said he was, he held no position within the party?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Except simply to toyi-toyi.  Was that said in reference to just his general membership and not specifically during the period in 1993?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, to his general membership until he died.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: That was the position.

CHAIRPERSON: And the toyi-toying would not be in relation to any particular incident?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: In 1993?

CHAIRPERSON: In 1993?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: In 1993, the only thing which he maybe could have participated in, maybe if there were meetings for you know, campaigning for the elections, some things like that, maybe he would go and chant there and maybe say poems, some things like that, but not  maybe going and there will be fights in the street and things like that.
	No, no, that will certainly not have occurred at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  So it was not conflict related?  According to your evidenced, the violence had subsided tremendously by the beginning of 1993?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Absolutely.

CHAIRPERSON: When, to your knowledge, did Mr Mtambo leave the ANC to join the IFP?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: It was in late 1990, although I don't remember exactly the month.  I mean in 1992, I am sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that during the height of the violence in the area?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, as I have said, the height of the violence, started to be subsiding in early 1992, so by that time, it was in the course of you know, being put through, you know, ending, something like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the reason why he resigned from the ANC to join the IFP, is that within your knowledge?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No, I don't know by now, but maybe by speculating, if you will allow me, I can say because his uncle which he referred to earlier on, he also joined the IFP and so maybe because he lived there.  That is just speculating you know.
	Maybe that is why he was also shifted, (indistinct) and joined the IFP from the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Claassen, you may proceed.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask one question to clarify something for me, Mr Claassen.
	Mr Phumayo, you stated that there was violence in 1992 and then it sort of - matters were normalised.  What brought about this normalisation, because one would expect it towards an election, to have become more intense.  Can you clarify that?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, as I said the last incident that I can recall which was involving a lot of violence, it was early in 1992.
	In 1992, after that incident, that is when the things like Peace Accords and Peace Agreements were being started, and members of the different parties, were being you know, convened into the hall for some meetings, and they would be shaking hands and things like that.
	Therefore that was the beginning of you know, a sort of sharing maybe of the same interest, although the enmity did not end completely, but maybe that could have been the reason that could have led, because maybe some of the people there, the political leaders also frequented the area in an attempt to try to encourage the people to stop the fightings and all that, from different parties.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask whether it is within your knowledge whether the Chairman of the IFP had attended the Peace Accord meetings at Davel?  His name was mentioned, it is just ...

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Napoleon.  Napoleon Nkonza.  Yes, of course, he was present in those Peace Accords and all that.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Phumayo, if I may then although you say that there were at that stage not, it is your submission, that there were not blatant violence, is it not so that there were a very evident opposition of wills in the two different political parties in the township?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: May you please come again sir, opposition of what?

MR CLAASSEN: Political wills, it was evident that people were politically opposing each other?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, in the sense that the ANC differs from the IFP, the ideas, there was the difference of the ideas and all that, but in terms of maybe that starting the conflicts and things like that, there was no any stage which could have reached to that point.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Phumayo, were you aware of any animosity between the applicant and the deceased at any time preceding this time that he was killed?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No.

MR CLAASSEN: You were not aware of anything?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: No.

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, if I might just be given a moment to get an instruction from my applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Madam Chair, I have just one further thing.
	Mr Phumayo, is the name Kuku Twala and Sticka Similane known to you?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Can you come again.

MR CLAASSEN: If you will forgive my pronunciation, I believe it is Kuku Twala and Sticka Similane.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: I don't know whether I don't get your pronunciation right, I don't think I know any name like that.  Maybe you can ask the applicant to say them to me.