Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MS TANZER: So then you wouldn't know whether he took part in this Boipatong attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know because I don't even know him, so I won't know even if he was present.

MS TANZER: You said that you felt that your life was threatened.  In what way was your life threatened in the hostel, prior to the attack?

MR MKHIZE: I did explain that the residents could have attacked me.  The people I lived with at the hostel, nobody else.

MS TANZER: Were you receiving personal threats of any kind?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I was.

MS TANZER: By how many residents, by everybody, by one, by two?

MR MKHIZE: It was the residents.  I cannot point out specific individuals, but it was the residents who were complaining about the attacks that were carried out on them.

MS TANZER: In what way were they threatening your life?  You said that they were threatening your life.  What did they intend to do to you, what did they say they were going to do to you?

MR MKHIZE: What I was explaining was that I felt that my life was in danger, I could have been killed at any time.

MS TANZER: Where did you get the weapons from?

MR MKHIZE: I did explain that the person who was responsible for it, was Mr Qunchu.  He had knowledge of where the weapons came from, but we actually collected money to buy those weapons.

MS TANZER: From who was the money collected to buy the weapons?

MR MKHIZE: We, the residents of kwaMadala hostel, used to pay.

MS TANZER: So you obviously weren't aware from where the weapons were bought, who they were bought from?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not have knowledge of that.

MS TANZER: Is it not correct that two meetings actually took place prior to the attack?  In fact one meeting took place about two weeks before the attack in which the anger was expressed and then a meeting took place about two or three days before the attack, in which the attack was planned?

MR MKHIZE: I would not dispute that, because there were many meetings that were held, where people were complaining.
	A number of meetings were called, because of the situation.  Whether there were two or three or even more than that, I cannot recall.

MS TANZER: At any of these meetings, were any policemen present?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MS TANZER: At any of these meetings, were any police or military present, at these meetings that were held?

MR MKHIZE: The police would not attend those meetings.  We would not invite the police when we were actually planning to launch an attack on people.

MS TANZER: When the siren rang, did the people all come, the residents come wearing their head bands, or did they put them on at the stadium?

MR MKHIZE: I told them that they should go and fetch their head bands.

MS TANZER: And when you made your way to Boipatong, did you go by foot or was there any kind of vehicle in which you - accompanied you?

MR MKHIZE: We walked.

MS TANZER: And on your way, you met no policemen whatsoever, or any military?

MR MKHIZE: No.  I did mention that we did not meet any policemen.  We saw the police when we were actually leaving the area.  I cannot say whether they were police or military personnel, but the only people we saw, we actually saw them when we were returning from Boipatong.

MS TANZER: At the meeting prior to the attack, did you drink any kind of muti and incite the residents to go and kill?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we normally used muti.

MS TANZER: At this meeting, did you tell the residents only to tell the members of the Self Defence Unit or to kill anybody they saw?

MR MKHIZE: We told them to kill only the SDU members.

MS TANZER: How many residents did you need to kill the SDU members?  How many members actually attended this attack?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MS TANZER: The question is how many residents of the hostel were sent to kill the members of this SDU?

MR MKHIZE: All the men who were present at the hostel.   I am not sure of the number of the people who were there.

MS TANZER: Approximately how many residents did go to Boipatong with you?

MR MKHIZE: I do not want to tell lies, but we were many.  I cannot specify the number.

MS TANZER: As you entered Boipatong, did you all go together or did you split up in different streets?

MR MKHIZE: We split up.

MS TANZER: Was each group that was split up, were they led, was there a leader allocated to them?

MR MKHIZE: There were only two groups.  I think the other one was led by Damara and the other one was led by myself.

MS TANZER: If there were only two groups, there must have been what, something like 40, 50 members in each group?  There must have been a group of about 50 people?

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you base that?  Where do you base that?

MS TANZER: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the basis of those figures?

MS TANZER: The basis is, if he says many residents from the hostel went to Boipatong, and they split into two groups, then each group has to have amounted to quite, several amount of people.

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you get the figures 40 to 50?  As I understand his evidence, it is that every member, resident of the hostel, went out.  He doesn't know how many were there, he is not in a position to estimate, but there were many of them.
	On what basis do you say that there were 40 to 50 in each group?

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases, I am just surmises 40 to 50, there could have been much more than that.  That was just a guess.  I withdraw that question.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to withdraw the question, unless you have proper basis for suggesting those figures.  It may well be that those are your instructions.  I assume, are those your instructions?

MS TANZER: My instructions are that in fact they split up into many groups, each group taking different streets in fact, and not, there was no mention of two groups.
	My question really is if they were split in two groups, that would have to be a huge amount of people in each group, which almost would be uncontrollable.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think perhaps what you should do is where your instructions differ from his evidence, perhaps you should put that.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases.  I put it to you according to the 18th applicant's version, Andries Nosenga, that in fact you were split up into little groups, smaller groups and each were attacking different streets, different houses in different streets and that there were about six, seven members in each group and it wasn't two separate groups completely.

MR MKHIZE: What I can say is that that person doesn't know what he is talking about.
	There were only two groups.  I do not even know who that person is.  What he is telling you, maybe is what he has just surmised, but it is not a fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your instructions that there were approximately many groups, is it into many groups?

MS TANZER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that in each group there were approximately six or seven people?

MS TANZER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that those groups went out, entering various houses?

MS TANZER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  At what stage were those, did the group split into those different groups, right from the beginning or perhaps the moment when they entered the township?

MS TANZER: Well, according to Mr Nosenga's version, it is from the beginning.
	I in fact put it to you that as you left the hostel, you were met by policemen in three or four caspirs, that actually accompanied you to the hostel.

MR MKHIZE: Is that what Mr Nosenga is saying?  That is not true.  Maybe he alone was with the police, but we did not have policemen at our company.  He doesn't know what he is talking about.
	The police were never present when we went there.

CHAIRPERSON: How many caspirs were there?

MS TANZER: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: How many caspirs were there according to Mr Nosenga?