Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Madikane you have heard what the complainant has said in this particular matter.  Can you proceed and tell us what happened on the eleventh of February 1990 and your response to the allegations made by the complainant?  You may proceed.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson I've heard the allegations against me.  On that particular day there were police placed in three police stations.  There were police in NU 13, NU 12 and in NU 1.  I was stationed at NU 1 then.  The area in which we patrolled was from NU 1 to NU 7.  The police from NU 13 were working in their area and the police from NU 12 were working in their area.  At that time I was in Highway together with Inspector Balt who was the driver and I was the passenger.  We were patrolling our area and we could hear everything that was happening in NU 13 over the radio.  I never went to NU 13 because I was patrolling my area.  When I got to NU 13 I found a white Monza with a broken window next to the police station in NU 13.  After this I heard that people said that I killed Thembelihle Gush and I don't know him.  I told Mr Sewisa about this and he asked me why I'm not challenging this and I said I reported the matter to my office and I was willing to challenge these allegations but the person who was in authority in my office said that I must drop this.  I saw Mr Sewisa in the stadium and I told him that I am called to appear before the Commission because I am accused of killing Thembelihle.  I never saw him and I didn't even know him.  That is all.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you very much Mr Madikane.  We are just going to ask you client a few questions for him to clarify things which are not clear to us at this stage Mr  van Heerden.  As I said to you earlier we are not contemplating making a finding at this stage.  If at any time we are contemplating making a finding which will define Mr Madikane as a perpetrator we will serve a notice on him and we will inform him that we are contemplating making a finding but just for the clarity of the Commission we will raise a few questions on what he has said to us.  Let me speak in Xhosa referring to you Mr Madikane.
 You said in your statement that there were different police stations and you were patrolling different areas on that particular day, where were you patrolling from?

UNKNOWN: We were not patrolling from any way but the police were to report according to their stations.  I went to NU 1 to report to my police station, police from NU 13 went to report to NU 13.

BONGANI FINCA: What was the reason for this?

UNKNOWN: The reason was that there was going to be a march on that day.

BONGANI FINCA: Was the march okay?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it was.

BONGANI FINCA: Where did this march come from?

UNKNOWN: I don't know.  I won't lie.  I don't know because I just heard there was going to be a march on that particular day and we had to report to our different stations.  I won't lie saying that the people who marched came from a particular place.

BONGANI FINCA: In your statement you said that everything that was happening at NU 13 you could hear over the radio but you don't know what was happening at NU 13?

UNKNOWN: What I'm saying is that as the police we could hear the police from NU 13 because we were in the car at that time.

BONGANI FINCA: What did you hear?

UNKNOWN: We heard that there were people in NU 13's police station.  We heard that from the radio while patrolling our area in NU 1.

BONGANI FINCA: Please give us in detail the report you got over the radio telling you what was happening in NU 13.

UNKNOWN: Please repeat your question.

BONGANI FINCA: Please tell us clearly and in detail what you could hear from the radio.  What was happening in NU 13 because you said that everything that was happening in NU 13 you could hear it over the radio?

UNKNOWN: We heard that people were lowering the flag in NU 13.

BONGANI FINCA: Please continue Mr Madikane.

UNKNOWN: They said that people were lowering the flag in NU 13.

BONGANI FINCA: Is that all?  What else did you hear over the radio?

UNKNOWN: That is all.

BONGANI FINCA: You just heard that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, we heard that people were in NU 13 and they were going to lower the flag.  That is all I heard.

BONGANI FINCA: Did you hear that people were shot?

UNKNOWN: No, I did not hear that I'm not going to lie.

BONGANI FINCA: According to your knowledge were there any people who were shot on that particular day?

UNKNOWN: The only person I heard of that was shot in NU 13 was Thembelihle the one referred to earlier.  I heard that he was shot by me and Gola.

BONGANI FINCA: Where did you hear that Thembelihle Gush was shot in NU 13.

UNKNOWN: I heard this from the township that there was a person by the name of Thembelihle who was shot by myself.  This I heard after a week and I didn't even know him.

BONGANI FINCA: This Unit NU 13 were you working in that Unit?

UNKNOWN: No, I was working in NU 1 the police station from NU 1.  The police working in NU 13 were those reporting to that police station.  I was in NU 1.

BONGANI FINCA: When you heard this allegation that you shot Thembelihle Gush in NU 13 did you try to investigate this matter?  Did you try to find out details from the police of NU 13 about this?  Did you go to the police from NU 13 to find out what exactly happened?

UNKNOWN: No, I was not interested in investigating that because I knew that the police from NU 13 were in NU 13.  I was not interested because I knew that I was not there.  You can go in NU 13 and you will see the police who were there on that day.

BONGANI FINCA: You were not interested in knowing exactly what happened in NU 13?

UNKNOWN: No, I'm not going to lie I was not interested because I was not there.  I was not interested in knowing the details.

BONGANI FINCA: Tiny Maya?

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Madikane I have a few questions for you.  There's a person by the name of Sitile Gola and both of you are alleged to have shot Thembelihle, do you know Mr Gola?

UNKNOWN: He is a policeman.

MS MAYA: Do you know him?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I know him.

MS MAYA: Were you together on this particular day or did you spend any time together?

UNKNOWN: No, on that day I was only working with Bult I didn't work with Mr  Gola on that particular day.

MS MAYA: After you hear of the shooting incident you didn't meet with Mr Gola whether it was in the police station or in the car?

UNKNOWN: No, I'm not going to lie I did not meet him but when we got to NU 13 I saw a car with broken windows.

MS MAYA: There is a car referred to by Mrs Gush which was patrolling in the township, do you know anything about this car?

UNKNOWN: No, I only know the car I was in.

MS MAYA: Do you know the make of the car?

UNKNOWN: It was an Opel Monza.  There were two Opel Monzas in NU 13 and one from NU 1.  There were three Opel Monzas in Mdantsane at the time.  We were using an Opel Monza with Inspector Bult and I think there were two Opel Monzas in NU 13.

MS MAYA: Do you know whether Gola was using a car?

UNKNOWN: I don't know I never saw him that day.

MS MAYA: When you were given instructions on this day what were the instructions?

UNKNOWN: We were told to patrol the area so that people cannot destroy the Government Buildings.

MS MAYA: In other words you were only patrolling?

UNKNOWN: Yes, we were only patrolling we were not instructed to go and disrupt the people who were marching but we were just patrolling around the Government Buildings.

MS MAYA: The last question.  Were you armed?

UNKNOWN: Yes, as detectives we have pistols with us all the time.  I think the people from the police from other areas were also armed.

MS MAYA: Do you have any knowledge of the number of police who were placed in other areas?

UNKNOWN: No.

MS MAYA: In your area how many were you?

UNKNOWN: I cannot count.  There were many of us.

BONGANI FINCA: June Crichton?