Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

SILOS NKONYANE: Here in Ermelo, we were actually responsible for problems here in Ermelo.  Things that were actually happening outside, we were just talking and we used to hear that such things happened, but we were only responsible for this community.
	These incidents that you are talking about, I just heard the people talking about them, this that happened in Piet Retief and Secunda.  But as the Committee we were only responsible for Ermelo.

MR HATTINGH: Did those armed robberies carry your and or your Committee's approval?

SILOS NKONYANE: This was a local community, not a regional committee that was responsible for Secunda.  We were responsible for Ermelo.

MR HATTINGH: Then lastly, it would appear that there were extensive delays from the time that your Committee made the decision that someone was to be assassinated, until the time that the instruction was carried out.
	That is with reference to Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya.  Did you make any enquiries about the delay in the light of the severity of the conflict at the time caused by the two people as alleged?

SILOS NKONYANE: The delay was because there was still negotiations that were taking place between our group and the Black Cats.
	The Reverends, the church ministers were actually playing a role in those negotiations.  We had a series of meetings trying to negotiate.  We were not prepared to fight during the negotiations, but despite all those negotiations, the violence was continuing.  The people were dying.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MR HATTINGH: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you sir, no questions.

MR MAPOMA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Patel, any re-examination?

MR PATEL: None Mr Chairman.

MR PATEL: .

CHAIRPERSON: Francis?

ADV BOSMAN: Just for the record, I am a little confused, can we just get the record straight?  Why did you say you were a Reverend, I heard it now on two occasions?

SILOS NKONYANE: I said I am a teacher, umfundisi, in English that means a teacher, not a church minister.  It is the same, it is written the same as the church minister and a teacher in Zulu, but the pronunciation is not the same.  What I meant was that I was a school teacher.

ADV SANDI: Mr Nkonyane, just on your very last statement in response to the question by Mr Hattingh, Mr Hattingh was asking you about extensive delays which occurred before Zwane and Ngwenya were killed.
	I understood you to say that the delays were occasioned by the negotiations that were taking place between your group and the Black Cats.  Was that correct?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, there were negotiations that were taking place.

ADV SANDI: Should one understand that to mean that you were talking to people who you were going to kill anyway, a decision had already been taken to kill these people at the time you were negotiating with them?  Would that be a correct understanding of your evidence?

SILOS NKONYANE: No.  When we were negotiating, we were just negotiating but it happened that they didn't want, after some time they were not prepared to take part in the negotiations.
	At some stage they said they got the permission from Ulundi.  We realised that the representatives of Inkatha, they were not present.  There was a situation whereby Mr Zwane and Ngwenya would say they are not prepared to take part in these meetings, they would continue with violence, therefore we would find ourselves in that situation whereby even if we are still prepared to communicate with them in terms of trying to bring peace, but they were not prepared to negotiate with us.

ADV SANDI: I think your explanation confuses me even more.  Let me put my question this way.  Which of the two things was the first to happen, negotiations or the decision to kill?  Which one was the first to occur?

SILOS NKONYANE: The first one was negotiations.

ADV SANDI: And the decision to kill, came later when the negotiations failed?

SILOS NKONYANE: We realised that even if we were negotiating with them, there was nothing positive that was happening and they were not prepared to sit in that committee whose aim was to bring peace.
	Instead they carried on with the violence.

ADV SANDI: That answers me, thank you Mr Nkonyane.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, I asked a number of the other applicants the same question, I just want to find out what your attitude is, what we are discussing in this hearing amounts to a lot of strife between people.
	Do you understand that?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: What we are discussing, amounts to strife between human beings, not so?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question, the Interpreter didn't get it?

CHAIRPERSON: What we are discussing in this hearing, amounts to strife between human beings, is that not so?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.  I think as a community we should reconcile.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am getting there.  There has been attempts to find reasons for it.  The reasons to me is irrelevant.
	Are you happy to start all over, to reconcile with the community?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And how would you propose to start doing that?

SILOS NKONYANE: I think what is of utmost importance is that we should talking to each other once more, not only negotiations.  I think we should start visiting the families of the victims and I think we should try to re-establish the ties that we once had and any manner or any way in which we can get back together again as the community.
	Maybe the TRC can help the families who were effected because a number of families were effected by the violence due to the attacks on their houses.  We would appreciate an effort on the part of the TRC, to meet the families of the victims half way with regard to finance or material resources.  Even those who were psychologically effected by this whole violence, I think they also need to be helped.  Not only physically, financially but also through the emotional trauma.  I think that is one of the things that will bring peace.

CHAIRPERSON: That can come after.  My concern is reconciling the whole fabric of the society, to restore it to what it should be.
	How would you suggest we go about that as a starting point?

SILOS NKONYANE: Chairperson, I hope that you did take note of the fact that the very first step to me seems to be negotiations.  I think that is the very first step that is going to open doors for us to be able to talk to each other.  As soon as we are able to talk to each other, then whatever follows will be easy.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are prepared to do that or to be part of that?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I am very much committed to that.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what I am also concerned about is one of the possible reasons for what has happened is that innocent people had been the victims of political manipulation.  How does one avoid that?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, it did happen that there were certain victims or casualties as well as people who died.  It is very important for us to try and devise some means in order to support this people or victims as well as their families.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, I am well aware that there are victims and they have needs.  Whether this country can afford to give them any type of support, remains to be seen.
	I am talking about the whole community, not only the victims, to live in peace, to live as we should be living and to respect each other.  That is what we are talking about.
	Those other things like financial support and medical support will come after that, if it is at all possible.  I am talking about something that cannot be paid for, you can't measure bringing a community to where it should be, with money.  Do you follow what I am saying?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I do understand.