Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR VISSER: He also denies - I'm sorry I'm talking about Mr Erasmus, he also denies that he attempted to obtain your services as an informer.

MR MOHAPE: I expect that.

MR VISSER: Yes, I have not been able to verify that as far as the other person, I think it was Mr Horn that you spoke about, I haven't got the note in front of me, I can't put any evidence in that regard to you.
	 Mr Erasmus tells me that he has no recollection at all about this typed note in Afrikaans or the discussion which you testify to around this note.  If you could give us a little closer information, it might be that one could juggle his memory but you'll have to tell us what was in the note.  Surely you can read Afrikaans?

MR MOHAPE: No.

MR VISSER: You can't?

MR MOHAPE: I can read Afrikaans, but I cannot understand what I'm reading.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you remember he asked for a black constable to interpret it?

MR VISSER: No, no Mr Chairman.
	But you were at school?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you receive tuition in Afrikaans?

MR MOHAPE: Oh, Mr Visser, you know let me tell you, I had ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Mr Mohape, let's not have a discussion about it, yes or no.

MR MOHAPE: Okay.  What was I saying to you ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Let's keep it short.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry what are you saying?

MR MOHAPE: What are you saying, what is your question?

MR VISSER: I'm just asked if you received tuition in a subject Afrikaans when you were at school?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: Tsoametsi will tell the Commission ...[intervention]

MR MOHAPE: Can we please Mr Visser finish with Erasmus?

MR VISSER: Alright.

MR MOHAPE: Because I was going to say, if Erasmus says he cannot recollect that, let him also say he cannot recollect a letter that was written in his office by one of his typists that was supposed to have come from Sakau and that letter, his receptionist brought it in whilst I was in his office and when the receptionist told him that he has finished - she was not aware he's with somebody else, he tried to tell that person to go away because I've already seen the letter of Sakau where a letter was typed and that woman said to him he has finished the typing that letter.  If he cannot recollect that, then it means, honestly, he will never recollect all the things that he has done to all of us.

MR VISSER: We'll deal on merit with your reply later, Mr Mohape.  I'm not going to take you up on your challenge.  I want to ask you this.  The incident where, which you spoke about, where you were assaulted in the office where Erasmus was present and he told you to look out of the window and a black hood was drawn over you head and you were assaulted with broomsticks.  Remember that, that incident?

MR MOHAPE: And kicks.

MR VISSER: Right, and kicks and you got hold of a broomstick and they all ran away?  That's the incident that I'm referring  to.  My first question to you is this, was that the only time that you were assaulted with broomsticks and after a hood of some kind had been drawn over your head, a sack or a hood or whatever you want to call it, was that the one occasion or were there other occasions as well that the same thing happened in Erasmus' room?

MR MOHAPE: No, I said that is what happened in that office.

CHAIRPERSON: Erasmus'room?

MR MOHAPE: I don't know if that - that one was not Erasmus' room.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Can I then rephrase the question just to identify this particular incident where Erasmus was present in a room with others?

MR MOHAPE: Correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Do you have a defective eye?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Which is the defective eye?

MR MOHAPE: The left one.

MR VISSER: The left one.  You see Mr Mohape, Mr Motsamai gave evidence about that issue at page 708 of the record.  And I think in fairness to you, I'm going to read the evidence it's just about a page.  It starts in the middle of the page at page 708.  It starts with the heading "White Mohapi" and I'm going to suggest that it refers to you.
"He also falls under the same category under the instructions of Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw."
That's Motsamai speaking.
Then Lieutenant Shaw:
" He has done frog jumps because he was the Chairman of COSAS in Free State".
Sorry, Mr Chairman, am I going too quickly, have you found the passage?  Middle of the page 708:  
"His assaults were greater than the rest of the people so that he must stop this activity, stop organising so that COSAS should develop and grow."
May I ask the interpreters, am I going too quickly?  
"I still remember, after the frog jumps he was taken by Warrant Officer Calitz into his office, I was there.  It was Calitz, myself and Mamome"
and obviously you.  Listen very carefully to what I'm reading to you now. 
"Calitz, Motsamai, Mamome and yourself in Calitz's office, what happened there?  His eye on his left hand side can't see properly but the one on the right hand side is still clear.  I can't remember well in which sight but what happened there, this man Calitz, he went to the side of the visually impaired eye and then he took a sack, then they took a broomstick, that is Calitz, then he hit this boy with - on the
it says here - it clearly means head, Mr Chairman, we will submit 
"(head) regularly.  He tried to pull himself out of the sack but he was not successful and they continued to assault him on the head saying: he doesn't understand, he is influencing other children not to go to school.  He's organising COSAS's activities, he must stop organising for COSAS."
The last paragraph says:
"During the time when he was hitting him"
referring to Calitz and probably Mamome as well because he does also refer to "they were"
"hitting him on the head and Mamome holding him, I went to the passage to close the door" because"
it continues to say that you were screaming and he didn't want people to hear your screaming so that they could not find out what was going on. Now, which incident is this?

MR MOHAPE: It's this incident.

MR VISSER: The very same one?

MR MOHAPE: Same one.

MR VISSER: However, your evidence, your recollection, is that the people who were present were Horn, correct?

MR MOHAPE: No, you are lying.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you say?

MR MOHAPE: I said yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: No I am asking Mr Visser, what ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Horn - H-o-r-n Mr Chairman.  It's the note under the sentence which starts
"He was picked up by Motsamai and he was at security head office and ordered by Motsamai to do frog jumps and Mamome also ordered me to do frog jumps and kicked me in the back"
That was the evidence.  And then he said who was present.  It would be helpful if you could find your note Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]  got present Erasmus, Prinsloo, Shaw and others.

MR VISSER: He was very specific Mr Chairman, he mentioned Horn, he mentioned Mamome and he mentioned Motsamai.

MR MOHAPE: Mr Visser, let me help you.  I said to you yesterday when I was in that office they were coming in and out and at the second when something was put over my head, it was after Erasmus said I must look over the window and in that second when I looked through the window, somebody put that hood on me, you understand?

MR VISSER: I don't understand because I just do not understand why Mr Motsamai was applying for amnesty in regard to this incident wouldn't have told this Committee that Mr Erasmus was present.  I just don't understand that, if that in fact happened.  And that leads me to the statement to you that Mr Erasmus will say that you're telling a lie, that he was never present.

MR MOHAPE: It's up to him.

MR VISSER: When you were assaulted, if at all.

MR MOHAPE: It's up to him.

MR VISSER: Alright.  What do you say about the evidence of Mr Motsamai that it was Calitz who assaulted you with Mamome holding you?