Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: It started in Mamelodi at Uitrus.  We left by transport to KwaNdebele to go and help the KwaNdebele people because the Mbokodo, in other words the police, were killing the children.  We obtained transport, got onto the transport and we left for KwaNdebele.  When we got to KwaNdebele we got to the supermarket at JB's supermarket.  We stayed there and we assisted him because the police were harassing him as well by taking things from his shop without paying.  We assisted him and we found that his store was attacked with a hand grenade and that is where we went while and we went to the supermarket.  We started looking for people that could assist us to, we found that these people were staying at Vlaklaagte number two.
 We went there to Vlaklaagte number two and found that the place is okay and we stayed there.  We went to Einel's supermarket because we were helping them there and we were getting food there.  We stayed there and we found some, somebody came there in an Isuzu, white Isuzu bakkie that, at the back was written I love Tembisa.  This person told us that he was coming from Diep Five Rand with Solly and that he was going to help us in whichever way he could.  While we were looking at ways for this we found that we did not have 
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a map which we could use to escape the country.  While we were sitting there trying to figure out a way to escape he said that, give us this map and I will show you which is the easiest way because we were working at Einel and we went to Pundu because Pundu was also a place that belonged to JB.  We stayed there and drank liquor and enjoyed ourselves and we went back to Einel.  
 From there the following day he came back and said that we were going to meet at number two Vlaklaagte where, which Mrs Skhosana spoke about and we went there.  When we got there we split up because the others wanted girls and so forth.  Myself and Victor, there were two Victors, myself and another Victor lived in one house with these two girls.  These girls stopped us from leaving and Victor forcefully left.  It was not very far from there to this ladies place and we got there, Victor and got there and they did whatever was being done there and I remained behind with this girl.  At about one or two I heard gunshots and I woke up this girl and said to her do you hear what is happening here.  I heard gunshots and I woke up this girl and I said to her let us find out what is happening and when we looked, we saw cars outside.  We saw, we peeped through the window and saw cars outside.  This girl then said we should not let them see us through the window because if they do we might be in danger.  When we looked on the one side we saw a Coyoko and when we looked again we saw a police van.  We saw and a Hippo and a police van.  There were police there who were shooting and there was no way we could get there so we remained in the house and about five o' clock in the morning we peered and when we got there we found that people had been massacred.  The people were killed, it was just chaos.  There was 
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nothing we could do because the people were killed.  I then fetched aunty Johannah and was talking to her and before I finished talking to her the police kidnapped me and took me to the police station.  
 When I got to the police station they detained me and said that I know too many things, but they would not charge me.  They would just detain me without pressing charges.  I remained in custody and after about two days when I came out I thought that I would inform my parents, but I found that the parents are aware of the children who had been killed.  I then organised the Comrades and we went from Visakugle and Tweefontein and we took taxis to try and arrange for the funerals of these children because I was also in this group of Comrades.  On the way to Denneboom, before we got into Mamelodi we met up with the police from Mamelodi this time.  They stopped the vans and they took me.  They arrested me and took me to the T5 cells.  That is where they detained me.  
 When I got to the cells they said you have got too many stories, you should not go and make a speech, we are going to lock you up. I was detained and the funerals proceeded.  After the funerals they released me and when I got home I asked how the funerals went and we were told that the funerals went well, but they are after the Comrades.  I met with the Comrades and we spoke.  I went to Solly directly because he was the one in charge of everything.  So I asked Solly what happens now?  Solly said have you got photographs and I said, yes, I have got the photos we took at Einel and I gave him the photographs.  He looked at the photos and said to me, Victor are these people, so many people died and so many are, survived and I said, no, so and so has not 
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passed away.  Abraham is one of the people that have survived and those are the first people that I still organised for them to get petrol to leave.  Samuel is at Nzindos and Abraham, I forgot the other ones name, but there were four of them and one girl and the driver.  When the girl came back, she was there, but I did not see the driver again.  
 I asked this girl by the name of, I am trying to get to her name, but I will get her name.  I asked her how everything went, how the other people went and she said, no, the people left okay and they got to where they were supposed to go.  I then remained there safe in the knowledge that they had left safely.  The police then arrived from Paul Kruger and said to me we want to discuss something with you.  The people that passed away at KwaNdebele, you know what happened.  I said I did know very little about it, but it is not something that I would care to discuss with you people again because it would be something that would expose me too much and it seems that I am working with you people and I do not know much about it, but if you want any information go to KwaNdebele and you will get the information that you want.  The police then left me and when they came back they came back with Victor's mother and we Victor's sister and they begged me that we should go with them to Paul Kruger to make a statement.  Thereafter we did so and the following day we went there.  
 When I got there they did not let me see the other parents.  They put me one side saying that I should sit by myself and I was put in a room with nine policemen.  When I was making this speech they said that I should, I was saying nine, there were policemen there, but they said, no, it is 
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better for us to just give you money and whatever you want so that your parents do not know.  I said, no, I do not agree with that.  When I got to my mother I said to my mother, mum, this is what they want to do.  They say they want to do these things for me and I do not agree with that.  These whites when they looked at it and saw that I did not agree with it and they sent two black policemen, sent us directly to KwaNdebele because there were photos of the deceased at the police station.  
 When we got there we got the general of KwaNdebele and he said to us, listen, do not proceed with this and he told the policemen too that you are going to die.  That is when I realised that there is something fishy going on.  I also figured out a way that I should go on because I could see that this was not going according to plan because and coming back I decided that we had to use another route and not the route we had used in the first place to go back to Pretoria.  When I got there I said to my mother, mum, things such as my photographs and things I am taking and I am leaving and if a policemen should come here looking for me say you do not know me because I see that things are very bad here in Mamelodi and I can see that the police are looking for me in connection with a lot of things that when I disagree with them, it is going to get me into trouble.  
 Then I met up with the mothers of the people at B1 at told them how everything went and that we nearly died.  I said, look mum, I think it is best if I leave because I see myself as being the polices target and it is obvious that here at Paul Kruger there are white policemen there who, one of them was a Warrant Officer from KwaNdebele and at the time this incident took place he was present and he was one 
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of the people who pressed me to say everything that I had seen and what had happened and tried to force me to do a whole lot of things by giving me cigarettes and money and saying that I should not worry, that I would be okay, if you want a woman we will give you a woman, if you, do not worry about anything, leave your things at home and we will leave with you.  We will make everything right for you because he said, look, we have got a camp at Johannesburg.  I could see that this kind of camp that they are talking about in Johannesburg is where they want to kill me.  I said, no, I am not going there and I went back to KwaNdebele.  
 I got to an attorney by the name of Olivier and told him and he said to me do not worry, that is not a problem.  Come to me and come and work and I went to him and I worked.  I could see that this was a problem for me because a lot of people were after me saying that I knew everything.  Be that as it may, even though I knew quite a bit of things, when I looked at aunty Johannah, her child, she said her child passed away, but her child did not pass away, but what aunty Johannah did which I am sorry about is that she says her child passed away and her child is buried, but her child was not buried.  Her child is alive and in Tembisa and the second point is that aunty Johannah is the one that directed the police.  The police did not know that I was a Comrade.  They pointed to say that here is Victor.  So it is such things.  So I know that aunty Johannah has got a lot of things and she says that the cases at KwaNdebele did not proceed, but the cases at KwaNdebele were white washed so that the facts did not surface properly and she was involved and I am sure that the General at KwaNdebele whose name was also involved.  If you should go to him at any time he will 
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tell you that she was involved and I see no reason why she should try and make herself look innocent saying that she does not even sell dagga and things like that because she use to give us dagga because it amazes me that she says she is not involved in any of these things, she does not sell dagga or anything where we use to get dagga from her.  She never use to give us food.  We use to get food from Einel's Supermarket.  
 A lot of things that aunty Johannah has said here I do not agree with because I know that she is included.  She use to close the gates and in, on that particular day the gate was not closed.  It is such things and it is when I look at it and I, when I assess this whole thing it seems that there is something funny going on because after this whole thing happened she never ever contacted me again.  She wanted to have nothing to do with me.  It is the first time I see here today, but I tried to force my way to see her, but she did not want to see me, but whenever I tried to talk to her she would say that I am busy and I cannot speak to you and saying that, look, my child has passed away, but the child is alive.  The child is in Tembisa.   We established that her, the child was alive and the child was in Tembisa and she says that, and it is, I see just as a concocted story.  Even now she says to me that when we asked her about the Comrades of KwaNdebele wanting to know if the child was buried, but where is the death certificate because, obviously, if he has passed away there should be a certificate, but she has not got any such documents.  She will tell you about her mother and she will tell you about her brother and tell you about somebody else in Cape Town, but you would never be able to establish anything concrete, 
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but what we do know is that this child is alive and also Solly of D5 is involved with aunty Johannah because when the photographs were released he gave them to me and the photographs are not available anymore, but the photographs that she has are the photographs that the police had which we also took from the police which were photostatted and given to aunty Johannah.  They manipulated this whole matter to suit themselves.  When I look at this whole thing I just thought that I do not have the strength to fight all this.  Even if I do try and have this thing reviewed it is not going to make any difference, but in a lot of things she is involved.  So she is involved in a lot of things because we use to stay at her place and when we ran away to her she did not ask us many questions.  The person from Tembisa said that he saw this child at Eersterus which was just a story.