Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes.

MR MADASA: Go on.

MICHAEL ARMOED: When Nchebe arrived, he knocked at the door, he said Comrade Armoed, death has arrived and I asked him what happened.  He said let us go, you will see for yourself.  We then left, the two of us.  On our way he told me that Bulelwa  had been shot and I asked who did this and he told me that he did not know.  When we arrived there, the community was already gathered.

MR MADASA: [inaudible] did you arrive?

MICHAEL ARMOED: At Block F.

MR MADASA: Was it at Bulelwa's corpse?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes.

MR MADASA: Yes, go on.

MICHAEL ARMOED: When we arrived there we looked at Bulelwa.  Indeed I did not know her but I saw her lying on the ground.  It was my first time on that day to see her.  We spoke with Comrade Nchebe, we were discussing as to the step for what and then we met these other men that I did not know.  They were present at the scene where Bulelwa was lying.

MR MADASA: Those men, are they - were they members of SDU ANC Youth League or just members of the community?

MICHAEL ARMOED: They were just members of the community.

MR MADASA: Go on.

MICHAEL ARMOED: He said to me I must accompany him to go and get a car and that we will come and fetch the corpse.  I then accompanied him.  It is true we got hold of a car and we came back.

MR MADASA: [inaudible] did you go and who else was with you when you went to get a car?

MICHAEL ARMOED: We were two.

MR MADASA: Came back and then what happened?

MICHAEL ARMOED: He took Comrade Sepo and then with the driver there were three, they then drove off.  After some time, I can't tell how many minutes but we heard gun shots towards C direction.  We did not take that into consideration.  They left, they did not come back.  It was quite - after a long time, then those who remained behind, they said, well those men who are employed can now go home and sleep.
	And for a while after the men had left to go and sleep we heard another gunfire at E, C, E I'm sorry.  And after a while we saw fire, something was on fire and then together with other comrades we rushed to the scene and when we arrived there it was at Comrade Blanko's place.  We tried to extinguish the fire.  After a while Comrade Oscar joined us, accompanied by Comrade Sonti.
	And another part of the community had gathered outside.  We then extinguished the fire, opened the door, got into the house.  Comrade Blanko was sitting on a chair, burned and shot.  Only a piece of his trousers was there behind him.  Comrade Oscar then indicated that he saw some of the boys that were shooting.  They then asked him who they were and he explained.  He gave their names, even though I don't know their names because I was still new in the area.
	He then said, Comrade Sugar actually suggested that we should go look for them.

MR MADASA: [inaudible]

MICHAEL ARMOED: I arrived in August on the [inaudible] even though I am not sure of the date.  And sometimes I did not stay in Moleleki.  I used to travel long distances as I was working far away, coming back monthly.

MR MADASA: Yes, carry on.

MICHAEL ARMOED: We then went to look for them, moving towards C.  When we got to C at some shack, there were boys who rushed out of the shack, shouting and insulting, saying, "here are these dogs".  They rushed into the veld, then Comrade Sonti shouted, saying, "guys wait", we want to understand what your problem is.
	They never stopped.  They went on running into the veld.  We came closer to the veld but we did not get in, we just laid down.  After a while I cannot remember exactly how long it must have been, two of them emerged from the grass.  They saw us when they were just so close and they said, "old men, we don't know a thing, we know nothing".  
	Some of them who can answer to the problem are there and as we were leaving together with this two, the third  one emerged from the grass.  One of them had a bottle, a small bottle.  Another one was having a carton of cigarettes and Comrade Sugar said there's no need for us to go and take the others.  Let us take these ones to the place where Bulelwa's corpse is, so they can explain because here one of them has a carton of cigarettes and another one a bottle.  We opened the bottle and discovered it was petrol.  
	We then went on together with them.  We then brought them before the community.

MR MADASA: How did you take them to the community?  How?

MICHAEL ARMOED: We were escorting them.  We did not hold them by their arms or hands.  They were just walking freely on their own.  And when we arrived, Comrade Sonti indicated that here are others, we have found them at C.  They had cigarettes and a bottle, they should explain where they got hold of these things.
	One boy who was still young explained even though I don't know his name.  He said, "we got these things from Comrade Blanko's place".  Then Comrade Sugar suggested that they should be locked up in a shack, keep them until we round up others.  They were then taken to the shack.

MR MADASA: Are you part of the people who took them to the shack?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, I was there.

MR MADASA: What did you do with them at the shack?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Comrade Sugar closed the door and said to me, "Comrade, you will stay behind and watch over them.  We are leaving to round up others."

MR MADASA: Were you armed, when you were keeping guard?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes I was armed.

MR MADASA: With what?

MICHAEL ARMOED: With an AK47.

MR MADASA: Yes, continue.

MICHAEL ARMOED: They then left until it was in the afternoon I was still there watching over them.  Comrade Shongwe then arrived.  I was still there in the shack and I said to him, "Comrade Shongwe, I want to go to the toilet, would you please take my place, watch over them."

MR MADASA: Is Shongwe one of the Applicants?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, that is correct.

MR MADASA: [inaudible]

MICHAEL ARMOED: I don't quite know his other name, I only know Shongwe to be his name.

MR MADASA: [inaudible]

MICHAEL ARMOED: On coming back from the toilet it was now light.  There was also this other boy.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute.  Did you say when you arrived from the toilet there was light already?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, there was light, it was around half past 6.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said you watched over them until it was daylight?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes I did that but to me that was round about 6.

CHAIRPERSON: If you're talking about daylight, you're saying until the sun rose, you were still watching over them.

MICHAEL ARMOED: I am sorry about that.  I cannot remember very well.

CHAIRPERSON: But what I am saying is, when you're talking about watching over them until it was daylight, you mean you watched over them until the sun rose?

MICHAEL ARMOED: Yes, I watched over them until morning, sunrise.

MR MADASA: Yes, continue.

MICHAEL ARMOED: I came back from the toilet and there was this other boy now this time who was my neighbour.

MR MADASA: Is that boy here amongst the Applicants?

MICHAEL ARMOED: He was already in the shack, he is here.

MR MADASA: He is not an Applicant?

MICHAEL ARMOED: No, he is not an Applicant.

MR MADASA: Do you know his name?

MICHAEL ARMOED: He is one of the boys whom we wanted.  I then asked Comrade Shongwe if there is another one and he said "yes" and I asked him who brought him, and he said "Comrade Sugar brought him" and he was, that is Comrade Sugar was with other comrades.
	I opened the shack door and indeed the boy was there.  I then asked his name because, "I know you what is your name.  You are not far away from my place, even yesterday you were playing with my boy," and he said "yes, that's true" and I asked him what he wanted there and he said, "I don't know, they just came and fetched me from home."  "Is there something wrong you did?" and he said "no", I did not do anything wrong."

MR MADASA: This boy you are talking about, is he, you're saying he's alive now?