Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR PIGOU: Just in the same vein, was there any information provided - and this is probably my last question although I'd like one more after it if I'm allowed Chair because I didn't know - thank you.
 Did you make any enquiries about the abduction of Katiza Cebekhulu and the fact that he was alleged to have been taken out of the country by the ANC and who knows ANC Intelligence was involved in this as well, did you make any enquiries in this regard?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Did Warrant Molaba provide you with any insight into this particular problem?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: One more.

MR PIGOU: This is the last question.
 I asked this question to your colleague Senior Superintendent Moodley on Monday and perhaps you can shed some more light on it.  It seems as if a considerable amount of resources was spent on this investigation, your flying to Zambia, Senior Superintendent Moodley going to the UK and digging up things and flying around in helicopters and all the rest of it, why was this investigation - after having so many resources put into it, closed down when there are clear a number of strands of the investigation which still had to be followed?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: No further question Mr Chair, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PIGOU

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.
 Any of the three gentlemen - around the statement of Johannes Mabotha - can you refresh our memory, these Section 29 statements were made under the law at the time that said: "If you do not answer questions to the satisfaction of the arresting officer, you might not secure your release", is that right?
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: And I don't know if you know, this is specifically the section that was repealed very early when our country got democratised, are you able to refute?
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: And in fact, now that we know that Mabotha was blown up by de Kock, have you got any independent validation that the contents of the statements were - one: freely and voluntarily made, and secondly, whether they were true?
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: Does the validation you think exists, that the contents of a Section 29 statements are a true and freely and voluntarily made?
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: Sorry, Senior Superintendent, are you saying this statement was made in the presence of an attorney or it was not denied in the presence of an attorney?
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEMENYA

DR BORAINE: Right, please go ahead.

MR SOLLER: Thank you Mr Chairman, Peter Soller on behalf of Zakhele Mbatha.
 Superintendent and Senior Superintendent Moodley and Hesslinga, I direct these questions to you if I may.  Do you suggest for one second to this Commission, that you have never been involved in any torturing activities as police officers.
S.A. POLICE: Are you talking to me directly?

MR SOLLER: I'll talk to both of you, each one can answer individually.
S.A. POLICE: No.  (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Do you know the layout of - what was called, the John Vorster Square?
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Will you tell the Commission how many lifts there are at John Vorster Square.
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Would you not deny that there's a specific lift which you enter from the garage at John Vorster Square which takes you up to the ceiling of John Vorster Square - to the last floor, where all the security matters are attended to and for many, many - I'm talking about pre-democratic era, there were screams and crying all day and all night coming out of that section?
S.A. POLICE: (English translation inaudible)

MR SOLLER: Well, I was such a select person, be it that I was an attorney and I can tell you that for many years - probably 15 to 20 years of my practice, I saw some horrific sights leave that lift under the floor of John Vorster Square and bodies or human beings pretending or portraying themselves as living bodies were taken out of that floor or brought into that floor where further interrogations took place or where they were taken to private hospitals for treatment, do you not know about that?

MR CILLIERS: Mr Chairman, if I may at this stage - I don't want to object unnecessarily, but everybody is time bound and everybody is bogged down by time and with all due respect, what the relevance of these questions are on the specific allegations that the Commission is in fact investigating at this stage, I can't see and on that basis I would suggest or submit that it is irrelevant.

MR SOLLER: Mr Chair, my learned friend ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: Mr Kades?

MR SOLLER: My learned friend obviously doesn't know that I act for Mr Zakhele Mbatha.  Now we heard Senior Superintendent Hesslinga talk about the fact that on many occasions he had given evidence in court where all sorts of allegations regarding torture and such things were made, he had never ever found the Judge lend support to that.
 I want to put to this witness, does he not know as a fact that pre-democratic era in this country, there were selected Judges chosen to hear human rights matters where there was torture involved.

DR BORAINE: I think you must be very brief in pursuing this, I think the witness has already indicated that he personally knows nothing about the torture which allegedly took place and I think to pursue it for too long is unnecessary and irrelevant, so please get to the point.

MR SOLLER: As it pleases you Mr Deputy Chair, let him live with his ...[indistinct] but let me say this - that my client Mr Mbatha will say as follows - and he's given evidence to this effect and I want to know what you have to say - both of you know Mr Mbatha, don't you.
S.A. POLICE: That's correct.

MR SOLLER: You thoroughly investigated him?  He says that on numerous occasions he has been tortured - I exclude you on the left for the time being, Mr Dempsey, I exclude you for the time being, he will say that you Senior Superintendent Hesslinga and you Superintendent Moodley have on many, many occasions handcuffed his wrists and his ankles and had immersed him in a swimming pool - his whole body, his whole head, and told him when he had something to say he was to blow bubbles, do you deny that that ever happened?    I see you laugh but I don't think it's very funny Superintendent.
S.A. POLICE: I think it's very funny because where you get this from, I don't know.  He was in court and he never mentioned anything like that in court, if there was allegations made - it seems very funny, it's such a far fetched story ...[inaudible] it's laughable.  I didn't do this and I told this Commission before and we're pursuing the same thing - I personally didn't do it.

DR BORAINE: Senior Superintendent ...[intervention]
S.A. POLICE: ...[inaudible] involved in that and I'm making it very clear Mr Chair, I was not involved in anything like that - one word, not involved, never.

DR BORAINE: Just before you start.
 Senior Superintendent Moodley, may I say that I'd be grateful if you just simply reply to the question.  I concur with the questionnaire that torture - whether it's true or false, alleged or unalleged, is a very serious matter and it's certainly no laughing matter, so whether you think it's far fetched or not, please treat the questions seriously, thank you.

MR SOLLER: Mr Mbatha has also instructed me that by both of you, he was electrocuted all over his body including electrification and being burnt electrically on his penis, on his ears and on his neck etc., what do you say to that?
S.A. POLICE: No.