Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I'm referring to my superior, that is Mr Fouche, my senior, that is Robertshaw, my senior, that is Jagga and another one, Mr Jantjie.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were you responsible to of all these people you have mentioned, Fouche, Robertshaw and Jantjie?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I was under the command of Mr Robertshaw.

CHAIRPERSON: This room, separate room which you were told by Mr Jagga to go into and they went in another with Ms Betty Boom, how far apart are these rooms?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, it was a room which was, you know, they were adjacent to each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Before you went to fetch Tax, did you know anything about Tax?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Did Jantjie not tell you anything about Tax and his activities?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: You know I'll tell you what, Tax was a teacher in Bloemfontein in the early '80s, the family have got that version, and before he left South Africa he was a political activist and he was detained by the Security Police on numerous occasions and harassed by the Security Police in the Free State, before he left the country.  Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, I would prefer you to dissect that long sentence, so that we give the applicant an opportunity to respond to each and every one.  For instance, that Tax was a teacher in Bloemfontein, whether he knows about that, in the '80s, and secondly, before he left South Africa he was an activist.  At least let's get responses on each of those.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I will endeavour to do that.
	Were you aware that - aren't you aware that Tax was a teach before he left South Africa?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Aren't you aware also that he was a political activist who was detained on numerous occasions by the Security Police, in the Free State?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I did not know whether he was arrested or detained and his role in politics within the Republic of South Africa.

MR MAPOMA: I'll tell you what, the family have got some newspaper articles which contain some profile about the activities of Tax prior to him leaving this country.  They say it was well publicised in the Free State, those activities.  Are you saying you know nothing about that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I know nothing about that, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Now at what stage did Jantjie tell you that Tax knows him?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: May you repeat the last part of the question, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: At what stage did Mr Jantjie tell you that Tax knows him?  That is Mr Jantjie.

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, I don't understand this question.  What is this evidence?  I never heard such evidence, that Jantjie said to Thulo that Tax knows who - to Jantjie I suppose.  We never heard that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't recall, Mr Mapoma, having heard that, unless somebody tells me otherwise.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I stand corrected, I may be wrong on this, but I seem to recall the witness saying that Jantjie told him that Tax knows him and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Would that have been under direct examination, or cross-examination by Mr Koopedi?  Where?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, perhaps let me leave it, I'm not sure now.  I mean, it would take time for me to recap that.  I'll leave it at that.
	To your knowledge, when you went to fetch Tax did Jantjie not know Tax?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't recall, Chairperson, I don't know as to whether he knew him.

CHAIRPERSON: No Mr Thulo, you should at least have an idea about that, because you say you went to that taxi rank where Tax was found and he seemed scared and wanted to run away when he saw you guys and when Jantjie approached him and told him that they have sent by Betty Boom, he became relaxed.  You recall that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I said so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it should be Mr Jantjie who directed you as you were the driver, isn't it so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And I take it, correct me if I'm wrong, that he said: "Stop, here's the person we are looking for", because you did not go to a house, you found him at a taxi rank.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And after you had stopped he approached this person whom you did not know and later knew as Tax.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, Jantjie knew Tax.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I'm unable to say he knew him, because it is possible, not about Tax only, about any other person that he would be sent by any other person who knew him, but he would not know the person who's a messenger, and then when the messenger says to that person that I've been sent by a particular person, therefore I thought in that way I have no concrete reasons to believe that Jantjie knew Tax.

CHAIRPERSON: But the impression you gained was that Jantjie knew which person to fetch.  Wouldn't that be logical?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It happened firstly with Nomasonto.  He mentioned Betty and immediately the name Betty was mentioned, Nomasonto had no problem.  After Betty's name was mentioned, Tax showed signs of relaxation, therefore there was no confusion.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's talk about this taxi rank.  Were there a lot of people there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Tax the only visible person there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, Tax was not the only one, there were other people who were around within that taxi rank.

CHAIRPERSON: According to your observation when you were directed to stop, did Jantjie go directly to Tax, who was about to flee or run away?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I stopped the car where I was instructed to, then he opened the door, he did not go out of the kombi, he just opened the door, then when Tax saw that the door was opened, he wanted to run away, that is when Jantjie started to tell him that we have been sent by Betty to come and fetch him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were you directed to stop next to Tax, by Jantjie?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I say the overall impression you gained - it's simple question, I don't think there's a trick to it, that Tax would appear to have been known by Jantjie, wouldn't that be so?  You see the difference with Betty Boom and Nomasonto Mashiya is that they were fetched from houses, isn't it so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I don't recall that Tax and Jantjie knew one another, but I was a driver, I was told to stop where cars used to stop there ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Don't make it complicated, Mr Thulo, the question is simple, it's that, I'm not asking you whether they knew each other, I say the impression you gained when Jantjie said stop the car and he opened the door and when this person whom you did not know wanted to run away, Jantjie said: "No, don't run away, we are sent by Betty Boom", it would appear Tax knew, I mean rather, Jantjie knew Tax.  Is it not logical?  Why do you want to make it difficult?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It doesn't click in my mind that Jantjie knew Tax.

MR LAX: Maybe I can rephrase it for you - if you'll allow me Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR LAX: Maybe what's confusing you is this word that he "knew him".  At the very least he must have known what he looked like, he must have either seen a photograph of him or he must have been told what his appearance was like, isn't that so?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Are you saying either Tax knew Jantjie, or Jantjie knew Tax?

MR LAX: No, Jantjie must have known what the man looked like, otherwise how could he have directed you to stop next to him?  Isn't that straightforward and obvious?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Perhaps that is one of the reasons, maybe he saw Tax's photograph.