bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

ADV SANDI: Who was the Chairperson of this organisation in the Eastern Cape?

ALBERTINA NOMBOYSELA GOBIZEMBE: I have forgotten his name.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear about any other leaders, national leaders, of this organisation?

ALBERTINA NOMBOYSELA GOBIZEMBE: Yes, but I do not remember whether they were in Johannesburg, but one of them was Makina.  I just heard about him at that time.  There is another one who use to visit us from Johannesburg, but I do not remember his name.

ADV SANDI: Was he known as the leader of this organisation?

ALBERTINA NOMBOYSELA GOBIZEMBE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: If you can tell us, very briefly, at the time when this organisation was launched, what was the policy of this organisation?

ALBERTINA NOMBOYSELA GOBIZEMBE: We were told that the purpose of forming this organisation was to fight for black people to be liberated, because the Government was oppressing us.  The organisation was said to like peace, because we did not know anything, there was no organisation in Bathurst, we joined this organisation.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Ms Gobizembe.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank both of you.  We remember this time, the conflict between AZAPO and UDF.  There are many statements we received concerning this era.  There are conflicting ideas in these different statements, but what we are looking at is that you are victims, you are women and you were harassed.  This is what is important to us more than a conflict that was between UDF and AZAPO or whether,  who was working with who in working, in collaborating with the police.  We are not concentrating on that now.  We noted your request that the people who did this to you are amongst your community, you would like them to come forward so that they can apologise to you.  If it is possible we would like peace to prevail amongst you.
 We would like the police at the door, if it is possible, if they can see that a person is not, a person is drunk, he is not supposed to come in, but if he managed to come inside, the police should be at the door all the time so that such an event will never happen again. 
 Thank you very much.  You may go back to your seats.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

NOVINTWEMBI GRACE GQAMFANE: Yes.

MR SANDI: Do you see Kulatyi in the community?

NOVINTWEMBI GRACE GQAMFANE: Yes, but he is working in Port Elizabeth.  He comes here during the weekends.

MR SANDI: Did you talk to him, speak to him after this incident?

NOVINTWEMBI GRACE GQAMFANE: No.

MR SANDI: Do you meet each other?

NOVINTWEMBI GRACE GQAMFANE: Yes, we do but we don't talk to each other.

MR SANDI: I would like to ask you a difficult question.  As you are looking to Kulatyi do you see any repentance in him?

NOVINTWEMBI GRACE GQAMFANE: No I don't think so because even if he meets me he doesn't greet me in the street.

MR SANDI: Before the incident did you know Kulatyi in the community?

NOVINTWEMBI GRACE GQAMFANE: Yes.

MR SANDI: Briefly what was Kulatyi's reputation in the community?

NOVINTWEMBI GRACE GQAMFANE: I don't know because he was just in the community.  He wouldn't come to my house and he was no friend of my child.

MR SANDI: Is he still a policeman?

NOVINTWEMBI GRACE GQAMFANE: Yes he's still a policeman.

MR SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Gqamfane.  We thank you for coming here and testifying, telling us about your son.  It is clear that he was taking part in the community activities in Alicedale.  We noted that the person who killed him is in Port Elizabeth.  We would like to consult him to give us reasons why he killed your son.  We also noted your request to the Commission.
 I can say that I am very touched because you requested money in order to support the child, your son's child.  Many people think that they are coming here in front of the Commission people expect to be compensated, but the amount of money, which is R10 000 that you have put in your statement, as I am thinking that this R10 000 is not enough because it will not support your son's child.  You have requested this amount and this shows that you just want your son's child to be educated.  We will forward your request to the President of this country.
 We also noted that you asked the Commission to build a hospital to help people in Alicedale. This shows that you are a parent who does not think about herself only but who thinks about other people.  We thank you for setting this example.
 We would like you to take your seat and we will take a 30 minute break and we will come back again.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

CHAIRPERSON: We remember the period you are testifying about today.  It was a very difficult period in Port Alfred.  We remember the heroic contributions made by some and we thank them for having come before this Commission to remind us about that time.  We would like to say thank you to you, Mr Gqolodashe, Mrs Tyuku and Mrs Pikoli and we have noted your requests before this Commission.  We will forward them and for now we would like you to, we would like to ask you to take up your seats again.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

REV XUNDU: I want to add to what the Chairperson has already said.  You were, you moved from the township to the tent, your people were allowed to have weapons. Do you think, do you not think that you have to say the truth, because now you are a police and the police force you are serving is not the past police, it is the present police.  The key to this will happen if you all agree, if the police will say that we will fight with the UDF and we will be on the Kakana's side.

MR KAKANA: I do understand now.  While we were staying in the tents, we have to rent the tents.  We were not staying there free, we had to rent R10,00 per house.  Even if this can be investigated, it will be found if the police were on our favour, they would have given us the place to stay without renting or paying anything.  I am not against the investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I do not want you to accept this, because in such conflicts there is always a third force, but it might happen that in the conflicts in Cookhouse there was no third force at all.  This will make us very glad.  I want to thank you for coming here with this painful story.  People died during that time in your family.  I want to say that all unnecessary loss of precious life and, as we are the Commission, any loss of life is a loss too much.  It is painful to lose a life, it is more painful when it happens within our own communities.  In your community, as I have already said, when we counted people who died in Kakana and also in the Menzi family, this is very painful.  I do not know whether we will be able to deal with your request that we must try to make peace in your families.  I do not want to promise anything, but it will be one of the things we report to the Commission.  We would follow Dr Vosloo, because what he has given out to the country, that you have been bought by this amount of money, you were trained as the Kakana family, we have to follow and investigate about all this.  We have to know whether it was the truth or a lie.  If it is a lie, he has to come forward and say it.  We thank you all.  We hope that if we had a, if we are going to have a chance we will meet with the two families.   We will now adjourn and we will meet tomorrow.  We will start at nine o' clock tomorrow morning.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

LINDILE WATSON KOLISI: I would like to say that since this happened to my son, something else I would like to know is whether there cannot be an investigation into trying to establish who shot my child.  Secondly, I saw something on TV where people's bones were being exhumed, where it was said that they had been shot by the Boers and their remains were being exhumed and that brought to mind my son.  It is my son's situation, because I was only informed years after that and another man from Port Elizabeth had also come there to tell me that your son died in the line of duty.  He was a hero and we are going to include his name in the naming of streets, because he died in the line of duty as a soldier.  I would say that that is all I have to say.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much, Mr Kolisi.  Perhaps there are questions which my colleagues would like to put to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Xundu.

REV XUNDU: Sir, I would like to know from you, did you ever go to the ANC office and try and establish where this boy died and which organisation he belonged to?

LINDILE WATSON KOLISI: Reverend, I would say that it, these men who had come there said that he fell or he had fallen around the Messina area during combat.  That is what they said.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kolisi, thank you very much.  You have painted a very clear picture of a young man who was also a hero, that was your son, Sipho.  A young man who died in the struggle, who grew up as part of the struggle and we find that during the relating of your story, there are certain parts which disturb you although we do not feel that, parents like yourself should not be disturbed by what happened to your children, but you should know what happened to your children, because you should know that your children did not die in vain.  Your son died while fighting for the liberation of this country and he will be counted as heroes of the new South Africa.  We have taken note of your request that his remains be found and be laid to rest in an appropriate manner.  These requests are always raised by people who appear before the Commission, where they request that heroes who have fallen in Angola, Lesotho, Zambia, Mozambique and such places, the bones of heroes who died during the struggle for liberation, remains be brought back to be given a fit and proper burial.  We have heard that request before and we take note of yours and on behalf of this Commission we would like to thank you for being the type of father that you are and for still being able to come here in spite of the loss of your wife as well.  We will include your request in our report and we thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

CHAIRPERSON: Is she still alive?

TEMTEM KUHLANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions.  We would like to thank both of you.  You have related a very tragic story before this Commission. We would like, if it is at all possible, to obtain the name of this woman whom you have referred to so that this Commission can contact her in its quest for the truth.  We have a statement before us from Ntsikelelo Botha which we are now going to attend to and give him the opportunity to reply to the allegations which you have made in your testimony.  We would like to ask you to take up your seats again.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mcebisi.  You have reminded us about the activities of COSAS and the struggle that was fought by the students.  Most of them died and most of them got injured, as you have already mentioned.  You've also reminded us about the state of emergency because you were arrested under the state of emergency.  We hope that those who were responsible for declaring the state of emergency, we hope that they are listening as you are talking.  One day they will come forward and ask for forgiveness.
 You have also reminded us that those days were dark days to many people who were fighting for liberation.   There were White people who were caring for us, there were very few, but today you have reminded us by mentioning Miss Priscilla Hall from Black Sash, you mentioned that she's the one who helped you.  You are reminding us that there were people although there were few, that these people took care of you.  It is very difficult today to find people who supported apartheid.  All of the people are against apartheid today, but we thank that people like Priscilla Hall at the past time they showed solidarity to people like you. We thank you for mentioning her name in your testimony.  We hope that she's listening. We want to pay our warmest tribute to her and to people like her that at that time they were amongst the privileged people but they identified themselves with the oppressed people.
 We thank you for your requests.  They show that you are an intelligent, bright young man.  You didn't want to depend on the pension, you wanted to work for your future.  Thank you, you may sit down.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-09

ADV SANDI: Do you have something else to add Ms Koliti, concerning this matter?  Is that all you wanted to say?

MS KOLITI: Yes, that is all.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Ms Koliti, I will hand over to the Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Koliti, your testimony you just presented to this Commission today, you said that Nontle Koliti was shot by Mpukumpuku?

MS KOLITI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You also said that Khadi was present when Nontle was shot?

MS KOLITI: The witnesses said that Khadi was also present.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are these witnesses, do you know their names?

MS KOLITI: It was Nomthumzi.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know her surname?

MR KOLITI: I've forgotten Nomthumzi's surname.

CHAIRPERSON: We will get back to you so that you can give us the surname when you've remembered it.  What did these witnesses say?  Did they say that Khadi took part in this process?  Did he also shoot your daughter?

MS KOLITI: The witnesses said that these children were playing near the toilet that morning, it was a quiet morning.  Mpukumpuku came and he stopped the car in K-Street, he went in one yard in K-Street, the back of this yard is facing the K-Street because we were staying in two streets.
 He then went next to the toilet where the children were playing.  The witness said that she heard a gunshot and Mpukumpuku had already killed them.

CHAIRPERSON: When you are speaking of Mpukumpuku, is it the same as Khadi?

MS KOLITI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I wanted to ask about Nombenqana Koti.  Did he take part in shooting these people?

MS KOLITI: No, he did not take part because the witnesses said that Nombenqana was in the police van.

CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of the Commission, I would like to thank both of you for coming here today and to tell us your story.  Your story is a usual story to this Commission because the police used to shoot people at random.  I don't want to say a lot for now, but I would like to inform you that Nombenqana's lawyers have requested a chance to come here so that they can answer some of the things that have been raised in these statements.
 And we will get a chance to ask them questions so that we can find the truth.  We will request you now to go back to your seats so that they can come up to the stage.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

KAYENI DERRICK METRO BAMBISO: When looking back, Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like the Commission, on my behalf, to ask forgiveness for the victims, although I was forced by the political situation to act the way I did.  I want them to forgive me
about the plan that I made although I was sentenced.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any things, according to your view, that can be done in the new South Africa?

KAYENI DERRICK METRO BAMBISO: We do not want to see what happened in those years.  Some one would be burned and people would sing surrounding this person.

CHAIRPERSON: As you referred to the plans that are to be made in order to reconcile and develop this country, what advice would you say?

KAYENI DERRICK METRO BAMBISO: What I would like to say is that people are to be united and work together to build this country.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation between yourself and the families of the victims?  Is there peace between you?

KAYENI DERRICK METRO BAMBISO: Yes, there is peace between us.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you would like the perpetrators, you would like them to go to the community to apologise.  Let us say these people are not going to go to the community, they do not see a need for them to go to that community, but they will go to the Amnesty Committee to apply for amnesty.  Do you think this will bring peace between yourself and the perpetrators?

KAYENI DERRICK METRO BAMBISO: Firstly, if they go to the Amnesty Committee to apologise, if they can reveal everything as I have revealed today, I would be satisfied, because I trust the people, the panel of the Amnesty Committee.  If they apologise to them it would be the same as going to my community to apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank the three of you for your testimonies.  It is a painful testimony especially to you, Mrs Bakauli.  What happened to you Mr Mentoor and Mr Bambiso is also painful, but what happened to women is not what is supposed to happen.  A woman at your age taken out of your
house, being naked or wearing only an underwear, taken to prison and staying there with policemen for a long time.  This shows that people were not human, they were animals.  Mrs Bakauli is not a young lady.  We have her picture, her dignity was effected.  These people would not come to you and apologise, but on behalf of them, as a Commission, we would like to apologise to you.  We feel ashamed that we are part of people in South Africa and there are people, these are people, these are South African people who did this to you.  We are not saying that these things have to be done to men, but we are extra sensitive to women.  We thank the three of you and we thank the evidence from Bedford.  We will adjourn for lunch for one hour.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

MR E G MENZI: My request to the Commission, as we were being chased away, there were people who were hired, they were known as "Specials".  One of them is a policeman today.  I would like the Government to do something about these people, because they were hired by the past Government.

REV XUNDU: You said that he is here?

MR E G MENZI: Yes, he is here.

REV XUNDU: What did you say about these people.

MR E G MENZI: I said that the Government must see what to do about these people.

REV XUNDU: Except for that, what is your other request?

MR E G MENZI: There is nothing.

REV XUNDU: Is there peace amongst you and the families of these people?

MR E G MENZI: We are happy, there is no conflict.

REV XUNDU: Mbulelo, do you have anything else to add in your father's story?

MR M MENZI: What I would like the Commission to do, as this was a very painful thing that happened to us, if one can sit down and watch what was happening, it was like a butchery, because there was blood all over.  My mother left two young children, they need their mother, they need the discipline, to be disciplined by their mother.  I would like the Commission to prosecute the people, the perpetrators, because if you say you forgive them, but you have a grudge, that will not be acceptable.

REV XUNDU: In other words, you say that these people must be brought forward to the Law.

MR M MENZI: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Is that all?

MR M MENZI: Yes, that is all, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Mr Menzi, and you, Mbulelo.  This must have been a very painful day to you.  Your wife was killed, you were also badly injured and you nearly died.  This is clearly a painful day for you, but I do not want to comment beyond that at this stage.  I would like to call the next witnesses who will be giving us the other side of the story.  For now, we thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: Mama Edith Mpande, you have shared with us and, indeed, have shared with the nation the pain of losing your son.  To see you shed tears makes us realise, again, the price that mothers had to pay for the freedom, for the liberation of our land.  Mothers paid, indeed, the highest price, because in most of the cases they did not even know what their sons were doing and they had to be confronted by dead bodies which they had to collect and bury like you did to Makwenkwe.  We wish to convey, on behalf of the Commission, our deepest sympathy and an assurance that we will, as far as we are able, pursue every case that is placed before us.  There is, of course, no guarantee that we will be able to solve every case.  We are beginning to realise that there are a number of cases which are going to remain unsolved given the time allocated to us as a
Commission, but we are grateful that you have brought this case to us and we will do what we can to answer the questions that you have raised in your statement.  I do wish, however, to point out that our office has noted that your statement is very scanty, that they would like to have more information, more background information than is provided in the statement.  So, I wish that, perhaps, as you are led down from the stand, somebody from the staff of the Commission must sit down with you and, indeed, get the details which are essential for us to have if we are to have any meaningful investigation of your matter.  For now, we salute you and we thank you for coming to testify.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

MPHIWISI DAVID SIGCAWU NAZO: Yes, the statement takers from the Truth Commission, they did go there and get my records.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nazo.  We have noted that the people you mentioned, those who arrested you, Jibilikile Khani, would like to appear in front of the Commission to contradict the evidence you have just given us, but we just found out that he sent his representative, Chris de Klerk, who will give testimony on his behalf.  We thank you for now.  We will ask you to go back to your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-09

NOSISI VIOLET PAYI: No, we did not open a case.  We just left this in God's hands that if these people are killing people, they must continue doing that.

MS MAYA: Thank you Ma'am, is that all you have to say?

NOSISI VIOLET PAYI: Yes, that is all.

MS MAYA: Do you have a request or a wish to make to the Commission?

NOSISI VIOLET PAYI: Yes, I do have a request to the Commission because I am a pensioner, my child would have been educated today.  She would have worked in the office or somewhere else, because our children have pride in their minds or they are intelligent.

MS MAYA: In other words you are saying that your daughter would have been supporting you today?

NOSISI VIOLET PAYI: Yes.

MS MAYA: I am going to hand over to the Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank both of you.  Your story have touched us.  Mrs Payi's words have also touched us that she
gave this to God's hands.
 We hope that what the Commission is doing, all the questions will be answered.  All your prayers will be answered.  We will try to investigate.  We will also consult Makalima to try to clarify this matter to tell us what happened.
 Mrs Ndingane, you named your son  Zanemali, because you hoped that one day he will bring money in your family, but that did not happen.
 We have noted your request and we will forward them to the President.  For now we thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Peter.  I will hand over to the Chairperson.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Peter, the story of the people in this country, those who were fighting for liberation will not end with names, such as your name, are being mentioned when this story is revealed to other generations.  The police will be implicated when this story is being told to the other generation.  The people such as the other professionals, such as doctors, refused to treat people.  You also mentioned such a doctor who refused to treat you because of the apartheid system.  These names will come and they will be revealed to people.  Sir, together with other Comrades, we do remember your struggle, your participation in the struggle.  We thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

TEMBINKOSI TOM: No I was not involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in a political organisation?

TEMBINKOSI TOM: No I was not a member of any political organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: When the case was in court what reason did they give for shooting you?

TEMBINKOSI TOM: I did not go to court, my lawyer went there to represent me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tembinkosi Tom we thank you for appearing in front of the Commission.  I think that it is not only your testimony that affects us but the way you are, your situation, it affects us because now you are in a wheelchair, you cannot do anything for yourself.  You cannot support your family because of the two men who came to your house.
 We thank  you for coming in front of the Commission because maybe these people want to deny what you have because said.  They might say that all the testimonies are lies, but I think if they can come here and see you they will know that these things happened and they injured people, they murdered people.
 We heard your request and we will try to forward your request to the President of this country.  We promise that we will look into your request, but I want people to know that by appearing in front of the Commission they must not feel ashamed for their involvement in the struggle for liberation.  We are not a court of law because I know people used to deny everything in a court of law.  They would deny being involved in the struggle even if they were found with books of our liberation, they would deny everything because it was a disgrace at that time.  You told us that you were not involved in politics and I want to tell you that it was not a a to be involved in politics.  What we are looking at in this Commission is the cases of people who were injured due to political conflicts.  I don't want you to change your testimony, but I want to clarify that people are used to denying their involvement in political v.  Our main aim in this Commission is to find the truth, the whole truth.  We are not looking at the trial cases.  
 Thank you Mr Tom you may step down.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

MR TSILI: According to my view I believe that a killer must be killed because he is able to kill a person he has to be killed, he is able to kill human beings, not animals.  There is nothing else I can think about a killer.  He has to be killed as a law has to be passed because I don't have a wife today.  I have to support my children.  I have to help myself.  Because I don't have a wife I have to prepare food for myself.  There is nobody preparing food for me because those who were in government at the time killed my wife.  Even today when my wife's name is mentioned I feel pain in my heart.

JACOB MBUYISELO NOMBIBA: This is very difficult because the government is trying to reconcile people although these people have done all these bad things to us we are injured, we have wounds inside because of what they have done to us as Black people, they were killing us, but there is a law passed by the government, the government doesn't want revenge, and this is very difficult.  My request is that as the government doesn't want revenge these people have to be arrested, have to be put in jail.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Let me start with you Nomangesi.  Your mother passed away.  She was trying to protect you.  I thank you for coming here today to come and testify. We hope that this will remain in your mind that your mother sacrificed her life to protect you.
 I want to thank your father.  He said harsh words, but I think that he is an example of men, he is the father who showed that although his wife passed away he can raise his seven children.  I can see that this incident affected him.  As we are looking in his face it is clear that he was injured inside.  It is easy for us, as we are sitting here at the table to talk about reconciliation and forgiveness because we did not experience what you have experienced.  But we want to salute him and to give him respect because he lost his wife.  You were still very young.  He managed to try and raise you so that you can be where you are today.
 To you Mr Nombiba we would like to thank you.  You said something, I think it is very painful, that children did not tell us about their involvement.  We found that many parents are not aware whether their children died as heroes because at that time you couldn't go home and tell your parents what you were involved in.  You did not want them to expect you to be shot and to be in jail.  I think this is one of the important things in this Commission that old people like you, at last they would find the truth, the truth about the struggle of their children, because they did not tell them what was happening.  
 What is important to me is that maybe the Commission will give out a report that will help you to go to your children's graves, to talk to your children that you were not aware that they were fighting for their country, so that you can salute them.
 We thank you for your testimony.  We promise that what you have given us will be looked at, especially the two different views you mentioned about this reconciliation.  You may sit down, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-24

ADV NTSEBEZA: If it will assist you to share that pain with others, may I tell you that on that very day, people in this country usually remember another hero of the South African struggle, Steve Biko.

MS LUBOWSKI: I know, the same date.

ADV NTSEBEZA: He died twelve years ago - a dozen years to the day on which your own son died.
Ms

LUBOWSKI: Correct, and one of my grandchildren's birthday on top of it.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Boraine?

DR BORAINE: I don't want to prolong this because I know it's hard for you, both of you Ms Lubowski and Mr Lubowski in your separate statements referred to the members of the CCB. And Ms Lubowski you named them and in the Court proceedings they were mentioned as well.
 Now I think we understand something of your commitment for justice. Have you any idea where these men are and what they are doing right now, any of them at all?

MR LUBOWSKI: I believe three of them are in Rhoodepoort and the others living high life. I read in the paper that they - any Court case, won't put them off, money is not the question.

DR BORAINE: Okay.

MR LUBOWSKI: They would welcome a Court case against them, because they know they are going to win it.

DR BORAINE: Okay, the last question, why do you think the Namibian authorities have waited so long and delayed so often to ask for at least these men that you know where they are and therefore other people know where they are, it's not as if they disappeared from the face of the earth.
 What - what's behind in your view, the refusal to request that they be extradited because as you know the Minister of Justice cannot act unless he is asked to do this. Have you any idea at all?

MR LUBOWSKI: Yes I approached the President, I approached the Prime Minister Hager [indistinct] I even approached the Minister of the Exterior, three of them - many a times, they just shuck their shoulders, I must the blame on the Attorney-General what is his name Heyman, Hans Heyman.
 As I read out here, I don't know whether I did, but Hans Heyman is the one who has all the excuses in the world, but he doesn't want to get anywhere else, he just wants to squash it.

DR BORAINE: Ja - ja.

MR LUBOWSKI: And I mean and this - I can't understand this, we wrote a letter to the them President De Klerk, and he replied to me after six months the ball is in the court of Namibia, that's the only reply I got from him. He washes his hands. So we really are running into a brick wall.

DR BORAINE: Sure, you heard earlier Advocate Potgieter say that we will do what we can to try and move towards the direction of finding some certainty and clarity about who really killed your son. We will do that.

MR LUBOWSKI: I would be very grateful and thankful.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much and just to echo the words of the Deputy or the Vice Chairperson at the beginning we are deeply grateful because you have been exposing this pain to the world so frequently and we will for our part within the means available to us, do all we can to be of assistance. Thank you.

MR LUBOWSKI: God bless you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-23

MIA EUNICE THEMBISO: That was the first time I saw him, it was on TV.  Nobody told me anything, I saw it myself on TV during the news.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much Ms Mia we appreciate how difficult it is for you to relive those moments and we are very grateful to you.  Thank you.  I wonder if Ms Khonele could now answer some questions please.

DR BORAINE: Hello Ms Khonele, can you hear me all right?

MS KHONELE: Yes I can hear you.

DR BORAINE: Tell us where you come from, where you've been about your family before you tell what happened in 1986.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1986-04-24

NOMATISE EVELYN TSOBILEYO: More over I will really like to help to get treatments from the hospital for my leg, because sometimes it gets very painful especially when it's hot, it gets too hot, especially if I am asleep it becomes too hot.  It swells most of the time, then I have to take it out the bed.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Do you think there is any other help that you can get from any specialist?   You think that any specialist can help you with this, just to take out some of the bullets in your body, do you think the - do you want the Commission to get those people?

NOMATISE EVELYN TSOBILEYO: Yes, I would appreciate it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1995-04-25

MR SNAYER: No - no the impression I got from the size of the task force - impression from the statements heard during the next, during the morning and the attitude of the people who entered my house, gave me the impression that the purpose of the exercise was a military attack on a - on an enemy and that for me went - meant a kind of kill or be killed situation.
 Because of the overwhelming advantage of those who - who shot at someone who didn't hold any hostages,  someone who was alone for seven hours certainly gives me the impression that there was no intention to take prisoner anybody.
 Now your testimony suggested that there was this person police person who was on the roof who threw something and then thereafter, there was an explosion.  Now one can conclude from that, that the something that was being thrown in was a detonating substance like a hand grenade.  Now I would like to hear your comments on a police version that they gave subsequently.  They said Anton died of a grenade blast that he detonated himself.  What would your comment be in view of what you saw?

MR SNAYER: My impression is that the time lapse between the action, the arm action of the person I saw and the explosion could very well be that a - an explosive device had been rolled into the - into the window.
 I cannot say for certain, but given the over all events of the - of the - of that morning, that certainly is the impression I - I got - especially after there was - there were no other - there were no other shots heard and soon after that, someone I suspect it's a policeman who said  you can come out now, it's all over.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And thank you very much for your testimony - both of you.  And for our part as the Commission will seek to get to the bottom of all of what we hear and try and establish what the truth is, but we also want to express our deep sympathies for - for all concerned and the [indistinct] accounts of events, thank you.

MR SNAYER: Thank you.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I just wanted to find out from Mr Snayer whether the photographer Ghool ever got to the scene and if he did, whether he took any photographs, that might assist us in wanting to [intervention]

MR SNAYER: I spoke to Mr Ghool just before I was briefed and he indeed did take photo's.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And he still has then.

MR SNAYER: And he is prepared - he is prepared to present those  photo's.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-23

DR BORAINE: As the first witness today we invite Zenzeli May to take the witness stand please.  And I understand that he is going to be accompanied by Tango Lamani, so I invite both of them to the witness stand.  I'd like to offer a very-very warm welcome to Mr May and Mr Lamani.
 We are very pleased that you have joined us to give witness to events which took place in your lives and which touched your lives very deeply.  Before we ask you to tell us your story, I have to ask you to take the oath, so I'd be grateful if you - Mr May would stand please.
ZENELI ERIC MAY Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, will you be seated please.  And Mr Lamani you are also going to address the Commission, would you please stand.
TANGO LAMANI Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, please be seated.  Mr May you will start, you have a horrible story of harassment, of detention, of torture, of accusation and in order to assist you to tell that story, Mary Burton will lead you, thank you.

MARY BURTON: Good morning Mr May.

MR MAY: Morning.

MARY BURTON: Would you like to testify in Xhosa or in English?

MR MAY: Both.

MARY BURTON: That's fine and have you got.

MR MAY: I can testify in English and Xhosa as well.

MARY BURTON: Okay if you want to use the earphones you are welcome to do so for the translation.

MR MAY: Okay.

MARY BURTON: You were a member of COSAS in the late '70 and early '80's is that correct?

MR MAY: That's correct.

MARY BURTON: And the story that you are going to tell us today is one of interrogation, detention for long periods, harassment and in fact also smearing your name.

MR MAY: That's right.

MARY BURTON: Is it correct, well let's - let's begin to hear your story.  In June 1980 you were working in the Ciskei and you were detained at that time is that right?

MR MAY: That's right.

MARY BURTON: Would you like to tell us a little bit about what happen then?

MR MAY: That's correct.

MARY BURTON: Well let's begin to hear your story.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-23

CHAIRPERSON: Well I - I just wanted to thank both of you the remarks that I wanted to make in East London we were listening to some quite extra ordinary testimony, a kind of things that have been repeated here when one old person spoke.
 I refer to our pride in those - in people like herself and to their testimony to the fact that it was because of people like themselves that democracy and justice had happened in our country for all of it's people.   And listening to young people like yourself you were a great deal younger even then when the things that you are describing happened.
 It is remarkable that you can be so old that you can smile and laugh and have such a remarkable lack of bitterness and speak of your experiences in detention and solitary confinement in a matter of that way.  And we just want to be able to salute you and salute all the young people of this country and say that we - we are a remarkable country with some quite extra ordinary people of all races.
 And we - I certainly believe myself that our country is going to succeed wonderfully because one of the greatest gift that God has given us is the quality of human beings we have in this land and thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-24

DR BORAINE: You can hear my voice?

MS MASEKO: Yes I can hear everything.

DR BORAINE: Much more important can you hear the [indistinct] - I'd like to [indistinct] on and my fellow Commissioners, you are very-very welcome.  I hope you feel relaxed and comfortable.   You can hear all right, let's just make quite sure.
 Okay now - all right I was saying I hope you feel comfortable and relaxed thank you.  It's not an easy thing for you to do, we know that and we feel for you because you have come to tell us a very sad and distressing story.  And I have asked - we have asked as a Commission Ms Mary Burton a Commissioner to help you tell your story and if you are ready, then I will ask her to start, are you all right.

MS MASEKO: Yes I am all right thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Mary - once again before Ms Burton asks you some questions and helps you to tell your story, I'd be grateful if you would please stand for the taking of the oath and I will ask you a question.
PHYLLIS MASEKO Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much will you be seated please, now Ms Burton.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Alex, welcome Ms Maseko I am glad to see you here.

MS MASEKO: Thank you.

MARY BURTON: And you have family members here with you, welcome to them too.

MS MASEKO: Yes there are.

MARY BURTON: The year 1985 and especially the second half of 1985 was a very turbulent time in Cape Town.  You remember those years.

MS MASEKO: Yes I remember them clearly.

MARY BURTON: Now in August there was the Pollsmoor march and many people were caught up in that, do you remember that?

MS MASEKO: No I am not quite sure about that Pollsmoor march.

MARY BURTON: But can you remember that there were many things that happened in those months, many meetings and rallies and also many funerals.

MS MASEKO: Yes I do remember that, but most of the time I was at work at Sea Point, I use to leave early for work.

MARY BURTON: Thank you, now on the 21st of October of 1985, your son Ezra Emmanuel Msimelelo Maseko was shot dead, he was only 15 years old.  Sorry I interrupted you.

MS MASEKO: Yes that's true.

MARY BURTON: Will you tell us what you know of what happened on that day.

MS MASEKO: On the 21st of October I left my children at home and was on my way to work, I told them not to go to school because there were riots at that time.  They were at their peak during that time at Langa and Khayelitsha.  I told them not to go to school at that time, because they were going to [indistinct] at Langa and a Mr Gobo who was the principal.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] at that time?

MS MASEKO: I was working at Sea Point, but we got a house at Khayelitsha coming from Guguletu.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct]  your children were living in Khayelitsha.

MS MASEKO: Yes that's right, but they were attending schools at Langa.

MARY BURTON: On - on that day you told them not go to school because it was too dangerous.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-24

MS MASEKO: In the Court they said to me, now I said to them I know the whole Mayongo family I am going to call them to come and testify that Mayongo killed my son.  Kenneth du Plessis said if there is anything that has happened to the Mayongo family, my whole family now will be destroyed.  When I - we went back again, Kenneth du Plessis was holding the door and he was preventing anyone from coming in.

MARY BURTON: Kenneth du Plessis threatened you if you - if anything were to happen to the Mayongo family?

MS MASEKO: Yes he said if there is anything that has happened to the Mayongo family, my family he will destroy my whole family.

MARY BURTON: Was that in the Court at the inquest that he said that?

MS MASEKO: Yes he said that in Court, we were going out of the Court at that time.  I asked him how can this case be dismissed like this, and now my lawyers just told me no, we also belong to the Government you need to bring more witnesses, there is nothing we can do as lawyers.

MARY BURTON: So mamma Phyllis what  you expect that the Truth Commission can do for you and your family?

MS MASEKO: My wish is that if there is anything that you want to do is to please educate my children so that they can be some - somebody in this world.

MARY BURTON: How many children do you have?

MS MASEKO: At the moment I have two - who is doing std 8.

MARY BURTON: Is that three children that you have?

MS MASEKO: And [indistinct] is doing - there are two - Felicity [intervention]

MARY BURTON: Felicity is this one, your daughter here with you.

MS MASEKO: Yes Felicity is the one next to me right now.

MARY BURTON: Would it be acceptable to you if we try to establish the truth of what really happened?

MS MASEKO: I will be satisfied very much.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.

MS MASEKO: Thank you.

MARY BURTON: If any other Commissioners want to ask any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any others with questions, Glenda Wildschut.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Having seen your child after the shooting, must have been very terrible for you, how has - how has your life been since that incident - how have you been feeling?

MS MASEKO: This hurt me very much because my son was quite helpful around the house, especially on Saturdays, he use to have casual jobs on Saturdays, even in the house, he was my right hand, my  heart was quite broken at that time.  I have a great vision for my son.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Do you think about him a lot now?

MS MASEKO: Yes very much so, I still have his photo's, but they make me remember hurtful things.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamma is she Felicity your daughter, would you like Felicity also to make a statement or no?

MS MASEKO: No I don't know it's up to you if you want to ask her questions?

MARY BURTON: I think that we have the information that we need, unless there is something more that you want to add that we haven't asked you.  We are satisfied that we have the answers that we need.

MS MASEKO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much mamma we hope that we will try by all means to satisfy you.

MS MASEKO: Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-22

CASE NO: CT/00504

VICTIM: LOOKSMART KHULILE

TESTIMONY FROM: BEAUTY  NGUDLE [wife]
 SIYANDA NGUDLE [son]

DR BORAINE: Ms Ngudle - Mr Ngudle, mother and son welcome to the Commission hearing.  We are very-very delighted to see you.  Would you like to use the earphones or am I coming through can you hear me all right I you could just tell me can you hear me all right?  Can we just check that to make absolute - ja that sounds much better.
Do you want me to try it again, is that okay, right.  As I mentioned to the first witness one of the requirements is the taking of the oath and I would like to ask you if you are prepared to do that?  Would you please stand.
BEAUTY NOMBULELO NGUDLE Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE: In a moment I am going to ask Mary Burton to assist you in telling your story.  It goes back a very long time in fact in 1963 legislation was passed in Parliament which enabled the police to detain people or a maximum of 90 days  without trial.
That of course increased in subsequent years.  But three months - perhaps a little more than three months after that, Khulile Looksmart Solwandle Ngudle, was detained.  He was amongst the very first South Africans to die in detention and you've come to tell us that story and I am going to ask Mary Burton if she will lead you and help you to do that.

MARY BURTON: Hello Ms Ngudle how are you keeping?

MR NGUDLE: Hello, fine thank you.

MARY BURTON: We should explain that you are here together with your son and both of you are going to speak to us this morning, is that right?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-22

ADV POTGIETER: Now that detention and the police that were involved was that the Security Police at that stage or which police was it?

MR NGUDLE: Yes Security Police.

ADV POTGIETER: Were the two police persons that you identified, Van Wyk and Greeff, were they from the Security Police?

MR NGUDLE: They were.

ADV POTGIETER: And the other three police that you saw as well that you referred to in your evidence, was that also Security Police persons?

MR NGUDLE: That - the rest I didn't know them, but I knew Greeff and Van Wyk, but they were dealing with the Security Police.

ADV POTGIETER: And then just finally Senator did Mr Ngudle ever told you why he feared that he would be killed if he was detained?

MR NGUDLE: No he never tell me but he said that he knows that he is going to be killed.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you a lot sir, it's obviously that this thing started a long-long time ago as we can see now that you are in high position.  We shouldn't forget that, where we come from.  Thank you very much sir, you too madam and you son, thank you.