Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

MNR ODENDAL: Dit is korrek ja.

INTERPRETER: No, but another police vehicle could have gone that same route, but you know now what it was all about.  It was specifically aimed at this specific bus which would have crossed that intersection at a specific time.

ADV POTGIETER: En dis waaroor u beplan het die vorige aand, u het die hele ding gedoen want u het betroubare inligting gehad dat daai voertuig gaan aangeval word.

INTERPRETER: And that was what you had planned the previous evening, because you had reliable information that this vehicle would be attacked.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek ja.

ADV POTGIETER: En nou is die punt mos nou eenvoudig dat - of laat ek vir u so vra u kon - u kon daai voertuig gestop het ne.

INTERPRETER: And it is just simple to say, or rather you could have stopped that vehicle.

MNR ODENDAL: Daai voertuig kon gestop het, maar dan kan hy miskien die volgende week gekom het as 'n man so redeneer so u nou redeneer,  dan het hulle 'n ander voertuig aangeval.

INTERPRETER: Ja  you could have stopped it, but then the next  - but if you reason like that, they could have attacked another vehicle the next week.

ADV POTGIETER: Moontlik - moontlik nie.

MNR ODENDAL: Moontlik.

INTERPRETER: Possibly, yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar hulle sou minstens - hulle sal minstens nie daardie spesifieke voertuig aanval nie, want u het dit gestop.

INTERPRETER: But they wouldn't have attacked that specific vehicle, because you could have stopped it.  But then you could have avoided that some of your colleagues would have been participating in a shout out.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou verstaan ek nie waarom...[tussenbeide]

MNR ODENDAL: Die moontlikheid - die moontlikheid het bestaan dat hulle kan aangeval word ja.

INTERPRETER: The probability could have been that they could have been attacked.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou verstaan ek nog nie vir u - hoekom het u dan nou nie maar die bussie gestop nie.

INTERPRETER: No, I still don't understand why didn't you stop the little bus.

MNR ODENDAL: U moet besef dat in daai tye daar terreur plaasgevind het, dit was die polisie se taak om op te tree en die persone uit te haal en in die hande te kry, want die aanvalle pleeg.

INTERPRETER: You have to realize that terrorism was occurring during those times.  It was the task of the police to get hold of those terrorists, those attackers.

ADV POTGIETER: So u wou - u wou graag sien dat die mense hierdie aanval loods.

INTERPRETER: So, you wanted - you wanted those people to launch this attack

MNR ODENDAL: Ek wil nie sien dat die - as hulle die aanval geloods het soos hulle dit gedoen het, ons sou hulle gearresteer het.

INTERPRETER: And now if they had attacked the little bus, we would have arrested them.

ADV POTGIETER: En u het - u het eintlik as deel van die beplanning het u die polisiebussie ook in aanmerking geneem.  U het beplan vir die polisiebussie ook as ek dit korrek verstaan van Superintendent Liebenberg.

INTERPRETER: As part of your planning, the police bus was also taken into consideration.  You also made plans for this police vehicle - if I understand correctly what Liebenberg had said.

MNR ODENDAL: Die polisiebussie wat deurgery het.

ADV POTGIETER: Dis reg.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

INTERPRETER: The police vehicle which crossed the road.

ADV POTGIETER: So dit was - dit was ook amper soos 'n Trojaanse perd daai ene wat daar deurgegaan het.

MNR ODENDAL: Nee ek sal nie se...[tussenbeide]

INTERPRETER: That was actually like a Trojan horse which passed the inter section.

ADV POTGIETER: Die mense moet dink maar dis - dis die - dis die gewone polisie wat daar verbyry en hulle - hulle is niks vermoedens nie, dit was die idee gewees.  U wou daai indruk skep.

INTERPRETER: And the people had to think that was the ordinary people going that way and they could not suspect anything.  Was that the impression you wanted to create?

MNR ODENDAL: Ja as u dit so wil stel, kan u dit so stel.

INTERPRETER: Yes, if you want to put it like that way, it could be.

ADV POTGIETER: En eintlik - en eintlik was dit ook maar 'n tipe van 'n lokval, want binne-in daai bussie was daar mense wat gereed was.

MNR ODENDAL: Natuurlik was hulle.

ADV POTGIETER: Om ook aan te val.

INTERPRETER: But that was also a kind of an ambush, because in that little bus there were people who were ready also to attack?

MNR ODENDAL: As hulle aangeval word, moet hulle vir hulle lewens - dis korrek.

INTERPRETER: Yes, if they were attacked, they would counter attack.

ADV POTGIETER: Was die idee nie dat u in elk geval daai voertuig bussie - polisiebussie laat deurgaan het deur die - deur hierdie interseksie nie.  Omdat u geweet het in elk geval die ding was so beplan dat u geweet het dat hierdie sogenaamde terroriste nie 'n kat se kans staan nie.  Dit is so beplan dat hulle eintlik in 'n lokval ingelei word.

INTERPRETER: Was the idea not that that little police bus had to drive through that intersection -  allow it to drive through the intersection.   The  planning was accordingly because these so-called terrorist had not the faintest chance to attack you.

MNR ODENDAL: Nee  [onduidelik]

ADV POTGIETER: Daar is geen risiko -  met ander woorde laat ek net voltooi, met ander woorde daar is geen risiko vir die bussie nie - die polisiebussie nie, u het klaar daarvoor ook beplan.

INTERPRETER: They were actually ambushed.  Because you've already planned for that.

MNR ODENDAL: Nee ek het nooit daarvoor beplan nie, want as jy 'n persoon lewend vang, lewendig vang, en nie doodskiet nie, kan jy mos baie meer inligting uit hom uitkry.  As u nou beweer ons het beplan om die mense dood te skiet.

INTERPRETER: Because if you arrest a person live, you can get a lot of information from them. If you're implying now that we wanted to shoot them, to kill them.

ADV POTGIETER: Wat presies u weet - dis die ander ding, kyk u het die bussie sien u voor verby u beweeg.
Now, you saw that little bus passing by.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: En toe sien u dat daar loop vier mense in NY111.  U het gese in 'n westelike rigting, met ander woorde van regs na links op daai - op daai plan.

INTERPRETER: Then you saw that 4 people were walking in NY111 in a western direction, from left to right, on that plan.

ADV POTGIETER: Stap hulle verby die interseksie.

INTERPRETER: They walked passed the intersection.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: En skielik is daar hierdie verskriklike voorval wat gebeur.

INTERPRETER: And suddenly is that terrible incident that happened.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek - die lede was al besig om te onttrek van hulle punte af.

INTERPRETER: Because all these people came from the places where they were positioned.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar ek meen u was - daar was soveel polisie - u het dit so beplan dat die mense kan nie wegkom nie, u het die hele - u het die hele toneel onder...[tussenbeide]

INTERPRETER: There were so many police that it was - and these people were unable to get away.

MNR ODENDAL: Dit is doodreg ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja.

MNR ODENDAL: Doodreg hulle kan nie, ons het dit so beplan dat hulle nie kan ontglip nie.

INTERPRETER: That is correct - we planned it so they could not get away.

ADV POTGIETER: Absoluut - ek meen absoluut,  u het alles voor die tyd beplan.

INTERPRETER: Absolutely yes.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis reg.

INTERPRETER: Absolutely yes.  We planned all this before hand.

ADV POTGIETER: Daar was geen - daar was nie 'n element van verbasing by u  gewees nie, surprise daar was nie 'n element daarvan nie.

INTERPRETER: You were not surprised at all.  There was no element of surprise?

ADV POTGIETER: U het die hele ding in beheer gehad, u het mense gehad wat saam met die sogenaamde terroriste was.

INTERPRETER: You had this whole situation under control?

ADV POTGIETER: En u was aan die ander kant gewees, daar was geen risiko vir die polisie gewees nie.