Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ADV GCABASHE: I notice you didn't mention Barnard, Cliffie Barnard, was he there as well that night?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: In the meeting where Koper was discussing the pipe bombs, is that what you're talking about?

ADV GCABASHE: The meeting where they were told to forget about the Volkstaat and to concentrate on disrupting the election?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I cannot remember whether he was there or not Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that the pipe bombs were demonstrated and there were groups of people brought together and they were chosen?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know, these groups of people, were they spoken to by someone maybe Johan Du Plessis, did he address these groups?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Johan Du Plessis was outside with them.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention in your amnesty application that the groups were divided as follows, as you can see on page 135, you mentioned Randfontein, Carltonville, Krugersdorp and Pretoria.  How do you know that these groups were divided into this fashion?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: As things continued I learned that this was the case.  I wasn't immediately aware of who belonged to what group.

MS VAN DER WALT: I'm not saying that you gave instructions to these people, all I'm asking is how do you know that these people were in these groups and went to those places?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At one stage when the other man came back and the bomb was not detonated, he told me.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who did not detonate the bomb?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I think it was Hanekom.  Philip Van Voller, Pieter Hanekom and Pieter Duvenhage.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that the group from Krugersdorp?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And there was also a group who went to Pretoria, do you know who they were?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: They drove with, by brother was present there, he was there himself, Gert Fourie.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the group who went to Randfontein, do you know who they were?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Later on I learned that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you aware of the fact, at that stage, that these groups were taking pipe bombs with them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I was aware of that Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You are saying that one of the groups did not detonate the pipe bomb.  What do you know about that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When they got back this man came walking towards me, I think it was Hanekom, and he told me what must he do, the thing didn't go off.  And I said that's fine.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Pretoria group, that evening they did not return.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then what happened?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: General Nico Prinsloo said the we are going to move camp.  We were under the impression that they might have been arrested whilst they were on their way to Pretoria.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why was the camp moved because of that reason?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not know, I did not partake in making this decision, it might have been because it was now unsafe because if the people were arrested they might have spoken to the police.  That was the conclusion that I made.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you learn while you were at the game farm that there was an explosion in Johannesburg?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you do then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When the message came through I thought that people would receive the message, I was thinking things are happening now.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you were not present at Koesterfontein, you did not know that they were building bombs.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now you knew there was an explosion, did you know who was responsible for it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I suspected that it was the right-wingers.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Because there were discussion concerning the elections which had to be stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Fourie you saw the demonstration of how the pipe bombs were to be used, you saw that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I didn't observe all of it but I was aware of it.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you become aware of it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Because it was said to us in the meeting that the men had to take part in the pipe bomb demonstration.

CHAIRPERSON: Your application page 134, paragraph 25 you say that you brought the members together at the game farm.  Everybody went outside and Commandant Johan Du Plessis led the meeting, Koper Myburgh demonstrated the function of the pipe bombs to the people.  There were four groups of three people each chosen.  Did you not observe this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes from the inside.  What I mean is, I thought you said you wanted to know if I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: From where did you observe this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was inside the building and the porch had big windows, you could see straight through them.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you saw this, what did you think was happening?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: As it was discussed in the meeting the elections must be stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you think was going to happen with the pipe bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: They were going to detonate them somewhere to create chaos.

CHAIRPERSON: So you knew it was going to happen?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know about the car bomb?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I had no knowledge concerning the previous bombs and I do not know what happened in Koesterfontein.

ADV BOSMAN: Just tell me, this meeting where you saw what was happening, why weren't you present there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It wasn't my responsibility and I did not want to involve myself in other people's matters.

MR MALAN: Sorry I just want to ask you a question.  You said you did not have knowledge, but earlier on you said that there were guards at this camp?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And people couldn't leave the camp without permission?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: The permission was to be obtained from, was it Du Plessis or yourself?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did nobody ask you permission to leave the camp?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: For example Cliffie and them?

MR MALAN: Yes.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He just told me that he's taking them.  I couldn't oppose him.

MR MALAN: So you knew they were out of the camp?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And did you link that with the explosion of the car bomb, was that the suspicion you had when you said you suspected them to be right-wingers?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No that's not the reason that made me suspect this.

MR MALAN: So when you heard over the new the car bomb exploded in Bree Street, you still didn't know that it was part of your group involved with that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: If I can remember correctly Chairperson, that evening on the news there was a question that they suspected the right-wingers of being responsible for that, I'm quite sure that's what they said.

MR MALAN: But you said that you yourself suspected them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MR MALAN: But you did not think that these right-wingers were coming from your groups from the farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Exactly Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell me, the meeting that took place on the Sunday evening, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they not talk there that evening of a bomb that exploded that morning?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At that meeting they did not talk about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing, not at all?