Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 1999-12-13

MS PATEL: May I proceed?  Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	Then just to follow onto the question of whether you in fact did give an order or not for both Oswald and Mavis to be killed, also in that statement to the Truth Commission, in respect of Mavis, you state to us on page 14, the last paragraph, that after Oswald was in fact shot everybody scattered and she ran as well and then people chased her.  You then say you saw that Oswald had died and then went to see what had happened to his wife.  You state that at first you couldn't find her, some people had told you that she had run away and was caught in a big hole and that a burning tyre had been placed on her, that someone had, they then tried to shoot her but were unsuccessful, she was then stabbed and a burning tyre was then placed on top of her, but you were not present when this took place, in fact that this was told to you by others.  Now what I don't understand is, if you gave the order for her to be killed, why were you not present when in fact she was killed?  Why did you choose to stay behind or not be present when that had happened?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Whilst we were at the meeting and after Mbuyisa was shot everybody scarred, Mavis fled in a different direction and I could not then see her.  That is why I do not have firsthand information as to who actually killed her, because when I arrived at that spot she had already been killed and she was burnt at the time.
	The person that I witnessed dying was Mbuyisa.  Mavis fled and the crowd pursued her.  I was only informed that she had been killed.

MS PATEL: Just for clarity, can you explain to me again why you gave the instruction for her to be killed as well?  Because from what I understand her husband was the one who was raising the, or making suggestions at the meeting that you didn't agree with, but why was she killed, why did you give the order for her to be killed as well?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: She also confirmed that she had resided in Lindelani prior to coming to the area, therefore it was obvious that they were in the same boat, they supported one another.  She also confirmed that she had knowledge with regards to Mr Ngobo's firearm.

MS PATEL: Alright.  And then just the meeting that you called, you said it was just a community meeting, was it an ANC meeting or was it a general community meeting?  Were only ANC people invited to this meeting?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: It was a meeting for all the residents, whether they were ANC or PAC or whatever, but it was a meeting, a community meeting which affected the residents because the water or the development that we were working on was going to benefit everyone.

MS PATEL: So when you stated in your warning statement - I refer to page 8 of the bundle, Honourable Chairperson, that
"On the 7th of April 1991, the ANC Committee requested me to go out and announce the meeting that was going to be held at the Dalmeni Farm."
That's not correct then, this wasn't an ANC meeting, this was a general community meeting.  So it wasn't really a political meeting in a sense.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Because the area was dominated by ANC members the ANC had requested me to call a meeting to discuss political or matters to do with the organisation.

MS PATEL: But this meeting wasn't for that purpose by your own testimony, this wasn't to discuss ANC aims and objectives, this was to discuss a community issue in terms of rendering of services and development of the community generally.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, it was a community meeting but it was dominated by ANC members.

MS PATEL: Let me just explain the difficulty that I have.  If the purpose of the meeting is to discuss the development or the rendering of services to the community generally, regardless of whether people there are IFP or ANC, I don't understand where the shift came from that purpose to what eventually happened to the deceased in this matter.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Things changed when Oswald was in disagreement with the rest of the suggestions made at the meeting, that is regarding the protection of the contractor.

MS PATEL: Alright.  Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR LAX: Just one last question Chairperson, from me.
	Mr Majola, you were asked by your legal representative whether they were killed in term - whether the woman Mavis was killed in terms of any order after she fled away and you said "No, there wasn't any order, they just acted on their own initiative at that point."  But you gave the order according to you, to kill her, so how could they have acted on their own initiative if you gave the order for her to be killed?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Whilst the two of them were at the meeting, that is prior to Oswald being shot, I did issue the order to the comrades for them to be killed.  At the point when she fled and the comrades pursued her, the comrades then killed her at the point where they caught up with her.

MR LAX: Well you see what I don't understand is this -and maybe you can help me here because it's not clear to me, you have this meeting, the man then raises something which you don't approve of, arising from that you then begin to question him, am I right so far?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: When Mr Mbuyisa went against the suggestions made at the meeting as to the protection of the community, that was when he displayed that he was not in agreement with the rest of the people in the area.  That was when people in the meeting started questioning him, up until he was questioned as to what organisation he belonged to when he could suggest things like going to the Inyanga and approaching the KZP.

MR LAX: So you agree with what I've suggested so far. At the point you then start questioning him, you and others in the meeting but you are the chairperson and you're the one in charge of the meeting, so you must have taken the lead, is that right?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Yes, I did take the lead.

MR LAX: And it's clear that you took the lead because you then sent somebody off to his house, but I'm coming to that.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now how did you arrive at the point where you sent people off to his house?  What happened?  Suddenly this meeting goes from being a community development meeting where you're discussion ways and means of protecting contractors, suddenly you're sending somebody off to this man's house to search his house.  How did that happen, what gave rise to that complete change in the nature of the meeting?

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: From what Mr Oswald was saying he was not even prepared to listen to any suggestions that were being made at the meeting, he was insisting that everyone should go to the Inyanga, that was when I questioned him as to why and why we should approach the KZP for our protection.  That was when we became interested in knowing whether this person was indeed an ANC member or an IFP person.  That was when the 10 people went out to his home and returned with a firearm and umuti and he admitted that the firearm belonged to this one person who had been responsible for attacks in the area, Mr Ngobo.

MR LAX: But you see you already knew about Ngobo, this man had been seen with Ngobo according to your evidence, it was known that he was a friend of Ngobo, isn't that so?  That's your evidence.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Prior to Mr Ngobo's departure to Lindelane he would be seen visiting people in the area and Mr Oswald was one of the people he visited.

MR LAX: Yes.  So you suspected this man, isn't that so, because of that?  This wasn't the first time you just suddenly came to this fantastic flash of imagination that suddenly this man is IFP.  You knew that, you suspected him from before.

MBONGENI CLARENCE MAJOLA: Those suspicions arose when he expressed his opinions at the meeting.