Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: we took a turn-off to the left and then it becomes a gravel 
road. Here I want to make a correction.  Where it says the 
askari was tied up, that's wrong.  I will point that out 
now.	When we stopped on the dirt road and I got out of the 
car and I went to the vehicle I then saw that the askari was 
tied up. I then inferred that they had tied him up whilst we 
were driving.  I mean his hands were cuffed or something.
	At that stage I wasn't quite certain of the purpose of 
this operation, what was to happen to him, but my conclusion 
was that the askari had been detained at the police station 
in De Deur and I believed that he would probably be killed 
because he was an ANC or PAC freedom fighter who had been 
caught by the security police.  He then became an askari and 
that he had gone back to the ANC and given information to
them. I then suspected that he probably would be killed, 
because otherwise we would have gone back to Vlakplaas with 
him, and De Kock would then have spoken to him there.  
	I can't remember exactly why we stopped at Boschkop.  
As far as I can remember now, I think De Kock wanted to make 
sure that he was tied up.  I say here, and he also 
handcuffed him.  I don't think he physically cuffed him, I 
think he just checked to see that the cuffs were secure.  
	We then drove off to Penge Mine, the mine situated on 
the other side of Burgersfort, in the Eastern Transvaal and 
it was the first time that I ever went there.  We arrived at 
the mine. It was - there was a small village community and 
then outside the place there were several mines and this 
Penge Mine was one of these mines.  We arrived there that 
night at the mine and then met Warrant Officer Snor 
Vermeulen and Warrant Officer Lionel Snyman.  They are also 
witnesses for the Attorney General.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 118

UNKNOWN: Penge Mine was at that stage used for a training base 
and askaris were there trained by Vermeulen and Snyman.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you - Penge Mine is also about 300 
kilometres from Pretoria?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: In the north-easterly direction of the old 
Province of the Transvaal. It is now the Northern Province,

UNKNOWN: That's correct.	The askari was then cuffed to 
a pole and we drank further there.  Later that night De Kock 
gave an instruction that we should take the man with us to 
the mine dumps.  It is not on top of a mine dump, I would 
say it was sort of a hole that had been dug, excavated area. 
 When we got there a chair had already been placed there and 
an explosive had already been attached to the underside of 
the chair. The askari was then placed on the chair and tied 
to the chair. 
	On the way there I walked right at the back. Whilst I 
was walking at the back I saw how Floris, that is Leon 
Floris, gave De Kock a revolver.   I say here in my 
application it could have been a pistol, but afterwards I 
thought about it again and I am almost certain that it was a 
revolver, the .38 type.
	As I said the explosives had already been tied to the 
underside of a chair before we arrived there.  De Kock 
meanwhile had now received the weapon from Floris and he 
shot him twice or three times.  When I saw that he was about 
to shoot him I looked away, but he shot him three times. I 
therefore didn't see how the bullets hit the man directly.  
	Nobody told me, yes, he had gone over to the other 
side, but that is what my belief was, that the man had 
returned to the ANC and had given them information.
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 119

UNKNOWN: We then walked back and whilst we were doing so Lionel 
Snyman had an LMG machine-gun and it was mounted some 
distance away and he then shot off a couple of shots in the 
mine dumps, to make it sound as if we were busy with 
training at night, et cetera.
	I then continue.  Whilst we were walking back I became 
very nauseous. If I say nauseous, I don't mean that I 
stopped and vomited.  My nerves were very, very tense, I was 
very nervous and I had a nervous feeling at the pit of my 
stomach.  I say here that it was totally unacceptable for 
me.  I knew the man was to be killed and I associated myself 
with that, but the way in which it was done, I found 
unacceptable. If they wanted to kill him they should have
shot him from behind or they should have blindfolded him or 
something, but don't shoot him where he is tied to a chair 
and actually looks at you. I didn't feel good about that.  
When we were nearly at the base camp, the explosion took 
place and the askari was blow into the air.
	 I was never told what the real reason was but my 
inference was, and I stand by that, that that is the reason 
why he was killed.  My inference was that he was an askari 
who had returned to the ANC and then gave them information 
that he was arrested and that there probably hadn't been 
enough evidence against him.  If I say information which he 
could possibly have given was that he could have given 
information about SAP members and he could have been 
subjected to intimidation, especially the black members, 
their homes were attacked, petrol-bombs were thrown at their 
houses.  In some cases some of them were killed.  And the 
information which he could have passed on, for instance, he 
could have revealed the identity of any 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 120

UNKNOWN: informers.  We all ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mentz, you don't know of anything, you are 
now speculating.  Do you know what the reason was or not?

UNKNOWN: Nobody told me, but that is the inference that 
I drew, that he was passing on information.

ADV DE JAGER: But the nature of the information and exactly 
what it was about, that is something that you are 
speculating on.

UNKNOWN: I don't know.  I continue.  The middle of the 
last paragraph.  It must, however, be remembered that I was 
a non-commissioned officer and my senior officer did never 
completely confide in me about everything, and in this case 
De Kock did not take me into his confidence by telling me 
exactly why the Askari was eliminated, as I have already 
said, that is an inference which I drew. 
	I, in my earlier evidence also said how I regarded 
instructions from De Kock, that he was in liaison with head 
office and that the generals would have approved it.  I 
regarded it as part of the struggle against the ANC at that 
stage, and regarded it as the elimination of an ANC activist 
and terrorist who had returned to the ANC.

JUDGE WILSON: You keep calling people terrorists, when you 
have no basis for doing it whatsoever.  You don't know what 
this person had done, you don't know why he was killed.

UNKNOWN: I will correct that, Chairperson. I will call 
them - I will call him the particular askari, or the askari 
involved. 
	I have already said here that I found out that it was 
Johannes Maboti.

UNKNOWN: Captain, let us just stop there for a 
moment with the actions of Vlakplaas at that stage.  The 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 121

UNKNOWN: conduct and actions of the Vlakplaas people, against whom 
was it directed?

UNKNOWN: Against the liberation movements and fighters, 
organisations such as the ANC, PAC, the enemies of the 
Government of the day, who was the National Party.

UNKNOWN: In all cases?

UNKNOWN: In all cases.

UNKNOWN: And the way you saw it at the time, were 
the operations launched by the people at Vlakplaas, 
undertaken by them, was it approved by the commanding 
officers in head office?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's how I saw it and I still believe 
that today.

UNKNOWN: As you saw it at the time, and today as 
well, relating to that particular time,  were the Vlakplaas 
members involved in the elimination of ordinary criminals?

UNKNOWN: No.

UNKNOWN: Were they involved in the elimination of 
any other persons that you know of?

UNKNOWN: No, not as far as I am aware.