Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

ADV PRIOR: Mr Shoke sitting here listening to you it seems to me that you were a committed person within the MK structure and the way you're giving your evidence you, it's something that struck me, have you ever at any stage at the time of the bombing or subsequent thereto, had any thought or regard for the people that were left afterwards, the families of the people that were killed and murdered, the people that were injured, be they White people or Black people.  It seems to me that - have you had any regard for those people at all or not?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think as a Black person in this country I have shed fountains of tears and we, were we are we've crossed rivers of blood and the blood that was spilt by the South African Police.

ADV PRIOR: May I just follow that up.  You have no thought or regard for the people who actually suffered as a result of this particular operation.  Is that, do I understand you correctly.  You say you've shed all the tears that you can shed, so do I understand from that that you have no feeling, no thought for the victims, whether they be White or Black, but the families that were left after the killing of their children, do you have any regard for them?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: It is unfortunate that the government of the day allowed the situation in fact to be what it was by them.

ADV PRIOR: I hear you, but you as an individual before the Amnesty Committee today, you've applied for amnesty.  We know what happened in the past, we've heard many accounts and many many witnesses have testified.  I just invite you at this stage to indicate whether you had any regard for such victims who were also victims of the madness or do you have no feeling for them as you sit here today?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Like I said (indistinct) it was unfortunate that I was trying in fact to take that route but if you were in my position I think you'd have followed the same route.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  Was there any consideration during the planning stage when General Nyanda was involved, when you were involved, Mr Kgoele was involved of the possibility that even the supporters of the struggle, supporters of the ANC may well be killed if you detonate an explosion at the Magistrate's Court and seen against the background that the Magistrate's Court was also frequented by people involved in the struggle, your supporters, your sympathisers.  Were there any consideration given to that possibility that those people may well be killed in such explosions and if that was done, if that was considered, let me ask the second part, were they just expendable in the circumstances?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That possibility was considered.

ADV PRIOR: And the second part is, having considered that possibility, were they expendable in your achieving your ultimate goal, that was to pump sense into the apartheid government or their representatives?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: To the best of my knowledge, precautionary measures were taken to minimise any civilian casualty and civilian in the true sense of the word of civilian because by then, Blacks in the townships were not regarded as civilians, people only spoke of civilians when there were White casualties.

ADV PRIOR: Yes I hear that but answer the question specifically if you can.  Having made the assessment, as you've now conceded that possibility existed and there were precautions to minimise the casualty figure among civilians and there by civilians I include people from all walks of life not related to the army or police, private people who went to the Court for business or they were called there, were those people simply expendable in the overall objective of the operation.  In other words if those people, despite the precautions, were in fact killed or injured, they were simply casualties of war, they were expendable.  Is that how you saw it?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think that aspect is also covered in paragraph 51 of the main submission.  The ANC at strategic level did consider that.

ADV PRIOR: And you embraced that strategy in the specific planning of this event.  Did you make it part of your mind set, your thought processes and the way you accepted it.  You see you keep referring to what the policy was.  Do you embrace that as part of your mind set in the planning of this operation?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it more simply.  You saw that people might be killed, innocent people might be killed, you realised that?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Might be hurt ja or killed, that possibility existed and hence we took the necessary precautionary measures.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR LANDMAN: No re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry, rather let me put a question arising perhaps from Mr Prior's last question.  Is the position that on, in any warfare situation both sides accept the fact that when they carry out operations, some of their own supporters might get involved in the crossfire?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: To the best of my knowledge all wars throughout the world in fact civilians have been caught in crossfire.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED