Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to begin Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, so far the Police or any other people have not been able to transcribe or to make available the tapes that are described to us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before Mr Prinsloo states what he has not received, I just want to put on record inasfar as the tapes are concerned, as to what happened yesterday.
	Mr Chairman, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you let Mr Prinsloo finish what he has to say?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I can do that.

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't finished, have you finished?

MR PRINSLOO: (No English translation - own translation)  Mr Chairman, what I would like to place on record as far as the tape recordings are concerned, that are referred to on page 19 and the following pages, have not been delivered.	At this stage it cannot be made available to us.  This morning during a discussion between Captain Holmes and Mr Mpshe, Captain Holmes undertook to launch a further search for these cassettes.
	Further Mr Chairman,  yesterday at four o'clock the cassette recordings were received from Mr Mpshe, they consisted of a number of ten.  Then further Mr Chairman, we also had the opportunity to make copies of documents in possession of the Police and we also gained possession of video recordings.
	At this stage Mr Chairman, we would like to continue with our evidence with the proviso that should the tapes with regard to numbers 3 and 4 are obtained, we will refer to those.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: Those are cassette tapes numbered 3 and 4 if you look on page 19, those are the cassettes we are referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, is there anything you wish to say?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have been covered by Adv Prinsloo, I have nothing to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Mr Prinsloo.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, there is something that I wish to place on record which happened outside these proceedings.
	Mrs Derby-Lewis, Mr Chairman, who is a person mentioned in the evidence saw fit yesterday to hold a press conference in which she made a number of statements which affect our professional conduct and also affect the reputations of witnesses who may give evidence here.
	I do not want Mr Chairman, to become involved in a war of words with Mrs Derby-Lewis, but I am going to ask you Mr Chairman, to say to her that it is considered improper for her to comment outside this court as to the manner in which we do our work and her opinions about witnesses.
	One of the most damaging things that she said was that we were going to lead evidence of known torturers which evidence we scraped from the bottom of the barrel.  In defence of our professional integrity and for the credibility of the witnesses that may be called, I want to read firstly to hand in, copies of a letter on President Council letterheads, written by Mr Derby-Lewis to the Colonel in charge of the investigation on 16th of May 1993 in order to show that if we did get this from the bottom of the barrel, it was a statement which completely contradicts her statement that we are relying on evidence obtained under torture.
	The letter reads 
"President's Council, P.O. Box 1462, Klerksdorp, 1749.
		Dear Colonel, just a brief letter to you and your staff in order to thank you for the decent way in which you had treated me during my time spent in detention in Benoni.
		I also wish to congratulate you with a very good team and I would like to request you to give my good wishes to one and all and wish them luck for the future.  Once again, thank you very much.
		I shall remember you all with positive thoughts.  
		Kind regards, Clive Derby-Lewis.  
		When this is all over, I shall once again one day go and visit you."
	Now Mr Chairman, when we tendered the statements made under Section 6 by the two applicants and Mrs Derby-Lewis who on the face of them, appear to be particularly relevant to these proceedings, the Committee was told that they were coerced in making those statements and that they will consider them to be inadmissible.  Mrs Derby-Lewis, outside these proceedings, added colour to those statements and the widest possible publicity was given to her remarks.
	I am applying Mr Chairman, that Mrs Derby-Lewis be told that purporting to be a journalist, she is of course free to say whatever she pleases, provided she does not say things which are improper in relation to those who are participating in these proceedings and in relation to witnesses who may come.
	I placed on record Mr Chairman, that we believe that the statements were freely and voluntarily made.  It was not a statement which was made without proper information and the letter that I have just produced, may go to show that the claim that they were not freely and voluntarily made, were false and that most certainly the allegations made by Mrs Derby-Lewis outside this room, were false.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, I do not know whether Mrs Derby-Lewis is going to be a witness is these proceedings or not at this stage.  It may be that she is exercising her rights of free speech in making a political statement, but I want to assure you that whatever she has said or is reported to have said, has not affected members of this Committee and will in no way influence us.
	Any extraneous matter apart from what we hear here, will not have any influence on us.  Because I do not know whether she is going to give evidence in this matter at this stage, I do not think that I should call upon her, I do not think that I have authority to call upon her not to make statements.
	I prefer to leave the matter as it is, but I want to give you the assurance that whatever she or anybody else says, in press interviews, will have no affect on the proceedings before us.

GEORGE BIZOS: That will be the case, but may I ask that this letter be incorporated into her record, because we believe that it is very material evidence as to whether or not those statements were freely and voluntarily made and could it go into the "R" file as the next page please, Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, may I just assist you.  There is a bundle of documents which we intend referring to in testimony this morning and the particular document which Mr Bizos has submitted to you, forms part of this bundle of documents.
	I have prepared it and with your permission, if I could receive a reference number for marking this bundle, then we shall submit this to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think your bundle of documents should be numbered differently.  Your bundle of documents were A, B and C and D.

MR PRINSLOO: Bundle D?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: I am indebted to you.

CHAIRPERSON: So you will be now handing in fresh documents.  We will regard these documents as forming part of bundle D?

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct Mr Chair.  In this particular document, the letter which my learned friend Mr Bizos has referred to, is numbered as number 3.  May I submit them to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

JUDGE WILSON: Am I right in saying that bundle D is also volume 13 in the volumes of the proceedings?

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct Chair, but this is a new document.  This is a document which we obtained yesterday from the files, Police files that we looked at.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that we are saying that this will form part of bundle D?

MR PRINSLOO: As you wish Mr Chairman.  They are already numbered the pages now, that is from 1 through to 11.

MR MALUNDI: Mr Chairman, with respect shouldn't the bundle form a new bundle E, because D is something different from what my learned friend wants to hand over?

CHAIRPERSON: I think this will now be called bundle E.  May we proceed please, thank you. So Mr Bizos, there will be no need for you to hand in this letter, we have received this.
	Please do carry on.

MR PRINSLOO: May we then proceed Mr Chairman?