Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson there are two issues here, the issue of Gift Mabelane and Gift Ntombeni, there is a Gift Mabelane he was one of the accused in the matter of Stompie's assault and abduction, that is not the Gift Mabelane we had, there was a bit of confusion.  I have a Mr Gift Ntombeni, as can be seen from the statement we have given my learned friend, has got first hand information regarding Mandela Football Club.  I certainly have no knowledge and I doubt if any member of this Commission, other than what is set out in the published regulations regarding (...indistinct) of allowances for travel and accommodation for witnesses would have made any such offer.  The reason we want to call him now and hear the matter is that we already have a long schedule and the more witnesses we can complete the better.  Having said that I still need to make a statement apart from this but I will wait for a direction.
 I have just sent Miss Groenewald to ask the witness about this supposed offer for money and he has advised Miss Groenewald that no one has ever offered him money for testifying.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson may I obtain the information from my learned colleagues whether this witness was contacted by the TRC or was contacted during the sitting of this Commission during the course of the week because it would be important to explain why he has just sprung up.

DR BORAINE: Mr Hanif.

MR VALLY: Certainly Mr Chairperson.  In our trying to seek out Mr Gift Mabelane as an accused who absconded we then came across Mr Gift Ntombeni who had direct information and this was the time of issuing of subpoenas regarding Mandela United Football Club and we thought that his information would be crucial and necessary for this hearing.  So it wasn't during the course of this hearing but that it was in the course of issuing subpoenas, yes.

MR SEMENYA: Then surely we deserve Mr Chairperson an explanation why the statement was only taken after he moved from the (...indistinct).

DR BORAINE: Mr Hanif.

MR VALLY: I understand that there was a statement taken, however, I haven't seen that statement and there have been a number of other witnesses that we are aware of that statements were taken either because they didn't give us statements or because of our own bureaucratic problems, however we have undertaken both to the Commissioners and to our learned friends that no witness will appear before a statement is taken and this is not the only witness where a statement was taken later, a formal statement, but this does not mean that there wasn't a discussion and a consultation with him by our investigative unit.

DR BORAINE: I am going to become extremely unpopular and rule that we will not hear the witness tonight.  We will hear the witness and consider your comments and hear the witness if necessary on Monday.
 I have to say - I want to say to Mr Ntombeni I apologise to you again Sir, we have messed you around a great deal.  It's very late and we have decided that it's too late to hear you tonight so I would be grateful if you would be in attendance on Monday.  Thank you very much.
 Mr Hanif wants to make a very important statement.  Mr Vally wishes to make a statement which I think is of import to everyone, it's very short, but I will ask him to make that statement now.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  It relates to the last witnesses that we have had in terms of the role of the security branch in Soweto, it also relates to other matters involving the security branch in Soweto.  We believe that their information would be crucial, we have been having negotiations with some key senior security branch officials of Soweto as well as their lawyers, having had discussions with them, having supplied them with information we have received a letter from the attorney for some of them, a Mr Jan Wagener who advises us that having received all the information, having had discussions with them that they will not (...indistinct) a friendly request to give evidence here.
 Now it's very important for us to note that this is incomplete work pertaining to our mandate which ends on the 14th of December, this is the mandate of the Human Rights Violations Committee.  We note that a client of Mr Wagener has previously taken us to the Appellate division and the same client has subsequently admitted to the Amnesty Committee that he had lied to the Appellate Division.  So I want to make it absolutely clear that this is incomplete work and therefore we will have to issue subpoenas for the security branch and arrange for them to come before us at a public hearing.  It may not happen before December the 14th but it still falls within the mandate period as set out in our Act.  Thank you Mr Chair.

DR BORAINE: So we will not be able to hear them during the course of this specific hearing even though we wanted to very much and tried very hard to get them but we will have to, the TRC that is, to arrange a public hearing for the security branch policemen to be heard but that will have to be in January.
 Now the Commission is adjourned.  We will start again at 8:30 on Monday morning.  Have a wonderful weekend.
HEARING ADJOURNS