Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: Nothing you have said in your answer, as far as I am concerned, did anything to show that Brig Schoon knew where the radio came from.   You've told us about other people, other threats, other things, who issued him with is official car?

ANSWER: It did go into his official car...

JUDGE WILSON: Was it issued by the police?

ANSWER: I beg your pardon?

JUDGE WILSON: Was it issued by the Department?

ANSWER: The official car?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

ANSWER: Yes the official car that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Was it fitted with the radio?

ANSWER: No it was not.

JUDGE WILSON: How did he arrange to have the radio fitted, do you know?

ANSWER: No I haven't got personal knowledge, Sgt Koos Schutte fitted it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Coetzee also there is no evidence to show that Brigadier Schoon in fact agreed to the cover up.   According to your manuscript on page 123 that's paragraph 5.4.18.28 you phoned Schoon, briefed him on the cover up and then requested that he sent Lt Schutte(?) to bring the car to Gwalela.

ANSWER: That's true Mr Chairman, not doing anything about it then resulting of my report, shows that he agreed in covering it up otherwise he would have immediately proceeded with criminal charges against the people involved.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee you were very concerned about Joe's identity, but he went in broad daylight, abducted Mr Umfali(?) and was even recognised by Mr Umfali and Mr Umfali
2b	later /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	145	D J COETZEE
later reported that Joe who frequently visited their house was the abductor, so then nobody was concerned about his identity.

ANSWER: Yes Mr Chairman I know that was when he was working with his handler Captain Jan Coetzee of West Rand, what the exact circumstances are, why he sent him in daylight because maybe he was known to the people of the house, maybe he was known as a courier running between Botswana, the house of Joyce Dibali and the house of their relatives in Soweto, I can't say but I'm sure Captain Jan Coetzee will assist in that answer.

UNKNOWN: He was abducting somebody against his will so it was obvious that he was not acting on behalf of the Dibali's.

ANSWER: Well obviously the inhabitants of the house knew him and I can't say in what context did they know him, but I'm sure that it was as a result of his contact in Botswana coming through because he was also transporting arms for the ANC through the border gate, with the knowledge of the ANC, ag with the Security Police.

UNKNOWN: You always bring in other incidents like the carrying of arms now, but I say they weren't concerned about his identity acting on behalf of the Security Police because he was acting on behalf of the Security Police in abducting Mr Umfali.

JUDGE WILSON: And in assaulting him.

ANSWER: Ja that's correct Mr Chairman, I can't answer that question I wasn't involved in it, in the decision-making, I don't know the circumstances around the set-up at the house, him knowing the inhabitants of the house and why Jan Coetzee then...
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	146	D J COETZEE

UNKNOWN: Then you took him to Botswana where he was
known to, wasn't he afraid that he would be recognised there?

ANSWER: It was at night, it was with the consent of headquarters and his handler so it's quite possible, and he was recognised there.

UNKNOWN: In fact yes.

ANSWER: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: You sent him in in daylight into Botswana to do the reconnaissance work there?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Keeping the house under surveillance not being afraid that he would be recognised.

ANSWER: As I say that is with the consent of his handler and headquarters Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So here you were afraid of identifying him because what he was doing wasn't done with the consent of his handlers?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: So he didn't act in the course of his duty?

ANSWER: And headquarters...beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

UNKNOWN: So he didn't act in the course of his duty that's why you protected him in the Lindley incident?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DE WET-MARAIS

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee did you hear the evidence of Mr Nofomela about the incident of the abduction of Mr Dibali?

ANSWER: I did Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: They went there and did not identify themselves as policemen and pretended that Mr Dibali owed them money in order to abduct him for that reason?
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MR DE WET-MARAIS	147	D J COETZEE

ANSWER: Yes I can remember that Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Would that fit in with keeping his identity as a security policeman secret?

ANSWER: If he was not known to the inhabitants of the house, yes Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE WET-MARAIS

CHAIRPERSON: If he was not known to the members of that household as a member of the police force, he may have been known personally but not known as a member of the police force?

ANSWER: No, what I actually mean Mr Chairman if he was not known in person as Joe Mamasela to the inhabitants of the house.

JUDGE WILSON: But once he was known as Joe Mamasela and he took part in the interrogation and assault, then his identity was blown as a police assistant wasn't it, they would know he was helping the police.

ANSWER: Ja well very seldomly after such interrogations, people ended up in jail, I don't know what exactly was the circumstances there Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well we've been told on the documents we've been given that he was released and detained again some time later.

ANSWER: I don't know whether Joe Mamasela, the name and in person, was known to the person that was abducted and released Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Weren't we told, isn't the evidence that he was?

ANSWER: I beg your pardon?

JUDGE WILSON: Hasn't the evidence we've heard, wasn't the evidence that he was known to them?
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	148	D J COETZEE

MR JANSEN: The evidence was that Joe Mamasela knew Dibali, there was no evidence whether Dibali knew Joe Mamasela.

UNKNOWN: Exhibit J, paragraph 8
"Mohabi was released from detention in January 1982, he told me that one of the men who had taken him in October 1981 had been Joseph Mamasela.  I know Joseph Mamasela as before the arrest of my son Mohabi, he used to visit us."
That's the mother, the evidence is before us and you've placed it before us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I suppose he was known as Joe Mamasela but not as Joe Mamasela the informer.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee during the Lindley incident, was Joe Mamasela an appointed policeman?

ANSWER: No not at all, he was appointed and actually there are documents to that effect, in February 1982 he was appointed officially as a policeman.

<UNKNOWN>: Almond Nofomela at the time, what was his status?

ANSWER: He was an official policeman since going to the police college in 1980 and came to Vlakplaas in December 1980 as a fully-fledged constable.

<UNKNOWN>: The bullets or the cartridges that were placed on the scene afterwards, from what kind of a weapon did that emanate?

ANSWER: From my official police 9mm pistol Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Would Nofomela have been entitled in terms of police regulations to have carried that firearm at the time?

ANSWER: Absolutely Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: The actual firearm used by Mamasela was a Makarov
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MR JANSEN	149	D J COETZEE
is that correct?

ANSWER: A Tokarev pistol.

<UNKNOWN>: Sorry a Tokarev.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: That's of East European origin?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Do we move on to some other aspect in which this witness is involved or do we now pass on to deal with the evidence of Mr Tshikalanga?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman we can either continue now with the confirmation of those incidents that we have already identified.

CHAIRPERSON: May we do that?

MR JANSEN: Yes.
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN (contd)