Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-13

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Everybody in South Africa knows, all the political parties know that each and every party has a problem with the ANC.  The ANC always protects itself, they tell themselves that they're the ruling party because they have the most members.  They are cheating themselves, their struggle.  We don't know whether their struggle is best for the black people or the Boers.  They make peaceful marks, they have petitions and they take it to the Boers but if a black person makes a mistake against them they take whatever they have and they fight that black person instead of sitting at a table and negotiating or talking.  It is the ANC that were burning the black people down but they are the very same people who claimed that they wanted freedom.  We had to fight when they attacked us because they wanted to destroy us.  We're not just any organisation that they bullied.  Even though there is a small number of us we stand by what we believe in.

UNKNOWN: I understand that but at that time the political aim was to get the Boers out of the government, wasn't that so?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: We had nothing to do with taking the government out, the Boers, we just wanted our land that they killed our fathers for.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  Now you want your land, that's your political objective.  Now how could you achieve it or how could this assault on Mr August enhance that political objective?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I said before that the PAC said 'peace amongst Africans, war against the enemy'.  Mr August is not my enemy but a brother and any other black person who is in another organisation but we would not accept being attacked by them, even as Africans or black people.  Why didn't they call us to the table so that we could talk.  They burned us down with tyres, they killed us.  We wanted to know if the freedom that they wanted was from us.  When they were killed by the Boers they would make peaceful marks, make petitions, go and sip tea with the Boers.  They attacked us because they undermined us, they looked down on us.  This is why we had to protect ourselves, we didn't want freedom from him, we were protecting ourselves from the attacks that he was embarking on us.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mbandazayo I've attempted to get from the applicant what his political objective was and I couldn't succeed and the only reason why I was asking that is because the Act enjoins us to find out what a person's political objectives, what he wants to achieve by do a certain thing in the political struggle and that's why I've been asking the questions and I leave it there because I couldn't get an answer on that.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Mr Majebe just a few questions. Let me start off by saying you've had plenty of time to make the speeches you want to make and I will be happy if you could just answer the questions very briefly.  Where you can you can say yes or you can even say no, if you don't know you can also say I don't know to the questions I will be asking you.
	Now let us start with the murder of Nomangwane on the 24th February which you said was carried out by ANC-aligned members, was Lucky August one of those people?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: This is a very painful question because in my life I have never thought or dreamt that a comrade that has given themselves to the struggle be killed that way.  Mr Lucky August was the leader of the whole incident.

UNKNOWN: Was he there when this person was killed?  Did he also take part in the killing of this person?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I would not know because I was not there, I did not see it but I know that he was the leader of the whole incident.  If he didn't want it to happen he could have stopped it.

UNKNOWN: Okay let us talk about another incident, that is when the house of Mr Gedde was burned down, was Lucky August one of the people who had done this?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: As I said, and I repeat it, when these things happened we were not there, we were chased out of the township, we were just going to the township to protect ourselves or to fight.  They do whatever they want to do in our absence but we were clear in our minds that the people who caused all those incidents were the leaders.  The people would say that they were obeying orders of their leaders; the leaders wanted those things to happen.  This is why we decided to attack their leaders and not the crowds.

UNKNOWN: Was he there on the day the house of Mr Duma was attacked, do you know if he was there?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: There were many people there, I can't even identify one person there were so many people.  I was too angry, I couldn't see who was there and who was not.

UNKNOWN: Let's go back to this day where you say a whole crowd of ANC-aligned comrades forced teachers to get into a community hall where people were incited against you, did you see Mr Lucky August on that day, was he one of the members of this crowd?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Those were students, Mr August was not a student.  I saw Mr Grootboom, he was standing with his other comrades outside the school yard, they looked as if they were guarding something or against something.  The COSAS members would go to them and chat with them, they looked like they were taking advice from them.  When we lifted our hands and wanted to talk we were told that we were already chased out of the school and we had no say.

UNKNOWN: Are you able to point out any incident where you witnessed Lucky inciting members of his organisation or anyone against your organisation? Are you able to point out any incident of that nature?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: No because I was not a member of the organisation, I could not go to their meetings.  I was not welcome to their meetings so I would not know but I know even from my organisation that subordinates obey leaders and this is why I'm sure it is their leaders, the ANC leaders that were egging the subordinates on.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Majebe.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the lunch adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo have you got any re-examination for the witness?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman, just a few points.
   Mr Majebe, am I correct that you attacked Mr August because of the political conflict which was there in Fort Beaufort between ANC and PAC?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct that the reason you were attacking was because you felt that as PAC you are unable to operate in Fort Beaufort because of the ANC?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mbandazayo, was it not his evidence that he was protecting himself as well as his organisation in the context of the conflict that was taking place there?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson, I think maybe that's the way I put it that because he was protecting it because he could not operate, that's maybe the way I put it.  There is nothing they can do if the organisation does not exist, so he has to protect it in order to operate in Fort Beaufort.

UNKNOWN: He had a firearm, he wanted to shoot them, wasn't that his evidence?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson.
	And that it was your feeling that you cannot, PAC cannot fulfil it's objective if they are unable to operate in Fort Beaufort.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Hence you took that decision that in order for it to exist and be able to fulfil its objectives you have to protect it and its members?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Have you got any other witness?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson I won't waste the time of the Committee, I won't be calling any other witnesses, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the applicant's case?

MR MBANDAZAYO: that's the applicant's case Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi have you got any witnesses?