Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BENNET SIBAYA: I remember those numbers to this day, even if you would wake me up in the middle of my sleep I would remember those numbers - when you apply brakes the lights go on.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, I would wonder why you would dream a registration number of a car but I want to suggest to you that when you say you memorised that number, you were actually not telling the truth because when you were interviewed recently by Mr Lubbe, you could not remember that number.  What is your comment about that?  And be careful before you answer Mr Lubbe because you are - Mr Sibaya, because you are under oath.

MR PRIOR: With respect, that's an unfair question, page 89 of the bundle, paragraph 7 - my learned friend is not putting what the witness said to Mr Lubbe.

MS QUNTA: Mr Chairman, this is quite - I have information to the fact that - my instructions are and I got these instructions a few minutes ago, is that Mr Lubbe enquired from the witness, the number - he could not recall the number offhand and was given - Mr Lubbe had to prompt him for that number.  If you will allow me Mr Chairman, I can call witnesses to that effect - it the witness denies that, I will do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, at this stage you will just put to him that he didn't remember the number.

MS QUNTA: Yes, I am putting it to you, that you in fact to do not remember the numbers as you've come to tell the Committee - you were prompted.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was this that he didn't remember?

MS QUNTA: When he was interviewed by Mr Lubbe on the - during the process of the investigation that gave rise to the statement that was made - the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MS QUNTA: Now, another - perhaps I should get a comment from the witness Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you put it to him that he didn't remember a number when he was questioned.

MS QUNTA: The questions of the cape ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: Has he relied to that?  Mr Sibaya, it has been suggested to you that when Mr Lubbe spoke to you you were not able to remember the number and he had to remind you of it, is that so?

BENNET SIBAYA: Are you saying he prompted me with the number?

JUDGE WILSON: That is what is being suggested.

BENNET SIBAYA: No incorrect, he did not remind me.  I know that number always - it will never leave my mind.

MS QUNTA: Mr Chairman, I may later on decide whether to call another person. 	But Mr Sibaya, you made reference in your second affidavit and in your evidence in chief here about a cap that you saw on one of the persons at the scene ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman with respect, that wasn't the evidence - he mentioned that the people leaving the scene had spoken about a cap being left behind in the vehicle.

MS QUNTA: My apologies Mr Chairman, that's correct.   My apologies, my apologies, that's correct.
	Now, in the statement you made to the police there's no reference to a conversation that you overheard between the persons at the scene.

BENNET SIBAYA: Do you want me to answer that, do you want me to respond?

MS QUNTA: Yes.

BENNET SIBAYA: The police from Bellville South murder and robbery squad - I explained to them that ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could the witness slow down please.

CHAIRPERSON: Just please talk slowly so that the interpreter can interpret what you're saying.   Yes, proceed.

BENNET SIBAYA: I don't know which one it was, I don't know which one it was that spoke because it was dark and they were already leaving.  However, the one man said:  "Madasi you forgot your cap in the other car" - the police from Bellville South know that because they were looking for Madasi as well.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, the question is: "Why did you not say that in your statement to the police"?   I want you to answer the question.

BENNET SIBAYA: I told them, they know that.  They know the name of this man - the one saying to the other that they'd forgotten the cap in the car.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya, you're really not answering my question.  You say that to the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He says he did tell the police.

MS QUNTA: Yes, now ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The police may not have written it down.

MS QUNTA: Now, I want to find out why you append your signature to a statement that doesn't contain everything that you've told the police and why you come to this Committee and say that that is your statement because in fact it is not your statement, it contains certain things that you didn't say - very crucial evidence or very crucial information.

CHAIRPERSON: It rather leaves out something which he said, it doesn't contain things which he didn't say.

MS QUNTA: Yes, thank you.

BENNET SIBAYA: What is your question exactly?

MS QUNTA: Why do you put your signature to a statement that doesn't reflect what you told them, in that it leaves out certain information?

BENNET SIBAYA: If somebody writes down what you said, you don't know what is in the statement and what is not in the statement - it is the person who's writing the statement, I didn't write the statement.

MS QUNTA: So in fact you didn't read the statement before you signed it Mr Sibaya?

BENNET SIBAYA: I did not know that after a statement has been written you have to read it, the police just ask you to sign.  They tell you that they have written it down as you had told them.

JUDGE WILSON: Can you tell Mr Lubbe about this conversation you heard?

BENNET SIBAYA: Could you repeat that question please?

JUDGE WILSON: Did you tell Mr Lubbe about this conversation you heard about the cap and the name that was mentioned?

BENNET SIBAYA: No, I forgot to tell him because I had a lot in my mind.

MS QUNTA: So in fact Mr Sibaya, your memory is not as good as you'd like us to believe - even about crucial matters?

BENNET SIBAYA: Madam, I try to remember everything that happened that night, if I don't - if there's something that I don't mention, it is because I have forgotten it.  Mr Segal said that if you don't have concrete evidence don't mention anything about that.

MS QUNTA: I will leave the issue of the cap and statement at this point, it is quite clear that I'm not going to make any further headway but perhaps I should just ask you - can you read Mr Sibaya, what's your standard of education?

BENNET SIBAYA: Please listen Madam, I am not well educated.  I went to St Cuthberts in the rural areas, I left school it standard two.  It was hard to receive education in my time.

MS QUNTA: Can you therefore ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the second last sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell the witness to repeat that answer again because what he said was not heard.

BENNET SIBAYA: I grew up in the rural areas - it was hard to receive education at the time, we went to St Cuthberts in Tsolo - I was taught to write my name.  I was at school until standard two, I am not well educated.

MS QUNTA: Can you read Mr Sibaya?  Can you read English, can you read English or Xhosa?

BENNET SIBAYA: If the words are not complicated I can read, I cannot however read a newspaper for example.

MS QUNTA: Could you read the statement that was drawn up if you were given the statement?  You've said the police didn't give it to you to read but if they gave it to you to read, would you be able to read it?

BENNET SIBAYA: No, unless they would read it out for me, I could not have read a statement that was written in English.

MS QUNTA: Okay, now the affidavit that you made for Mr Lubbe, if that was given to you to read would you also say you would not be able to read that?

BENNET SIBAYA: I could read it but perhaps some words I won't be able to pronounce.

MS QUNTA: Did you read the affidavit that was made?  When the affidavit was completed, was it given to you to read?

BENNET SIBAYA: He read it out for me.

MS QUNTA: Now, where are you presently employed?

BENNET SIBAYA: I work in Kenilworth.

MS QUNTA: Where in Kenilworth?

BENNET SIBAYA: Main Road.