Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR MASEKO: I'm the one who made that statement and even the amount of money there, I'm the one who filled it in but the thing is that I didn't get a chance of calculating.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I will tell you that it is far and away the largest sum of money that you say was stolen, I think your advocate - legal advisor - will confirm that.  Do you agree?

MR MASEKO: I have not comment concerning that.

CHAIRPERSON: But you chose not to go although you were the commander you told us you chose not to get yourself too involved in this theft of half a million rand.  Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: I have already explained that I was not supposed to be in that operation but I decided to be involved because I wanted to give them moral support.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I have problems with you saying I was not supposed to be in that operation - when you were the person who planned the operation, you've agreed to that, it was your idea, you planned it, you reconnoitred the scene, why do you say you were not supposed to be in it?

MR MASEKO: I'll try and explain this way - my job was not mainly to repossess but I would hire units to repossess.  If the unit is able to do the mission then I would have to go and create another unit to do the job.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Is there anything anyone wishes to raise before we go on?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, there's nothing from my side.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any other witness to call?
So you propose to adjourn the application at this stage, to adjourn the applicant's evidence at this stage?

MR NTONGA: I agree Mr Chairman so that I can be given a chance to ...[inaudible] the other attacks so if we have one complete application with all the..[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't want to call any other witnesses - today being this event?
	Do either of you two gentlemen wish to call any witnesses dealing with this event?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, maybe I - apart from the three victims that are present, there are no other witnesses, I leave that in the hands of Mr Nodada for his client.

MR NODADA: Mr Chairman, I'll being calling two of my clients, that is the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Well do you want to start now when they'll go on for a very short time or should we try to start promptly tomorrow morning at say 9 o'clock when they won't have an interrupted - sorry before I fix a time - is that a convenient time to bring the applicant here - 9 o'clock.  Does that suit you?  We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION 31ST MARCH 1998 - DAY 2

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, there's one aspect regarding the applicant's affidavit that was referred to in his evidence, I noticed that it was unsigned.  I've discussed the matter with Mr Ntonga and the suggestion is that the applicant simply be sworn in or confirm the statement under oath, as the Chair pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Just remind the applicant that he is still under his previous oath.

PATRICK THOPELA MASEKO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember reading an affidavit prepared by your attorney?

MR MASEKO: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm the correctness of all the facts that are set out in that affidavit?

MR MASEKO: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember or your attorney can perhaps tell us, so we can fill that in too, what the date should be?  When was it that you confirmed the correctness to your attorney?

MR MASEKO: There's no problem to consult him sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a few days ago?  What should the date have been, when we supposed to have sworn it?

MR NTONGA: On Sunday.

CHAIRPERSON: On Sunday the 29th.  So can we say that it was prepared on the 29th of March and you confirm the correctness, is that so?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, may the applicant then leave the podium due to the space arrangement and then take his place up in the front of the seating facility?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, does that meet the - yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday we had some problem with the interpreters, what language is the present going to use?

MR NODADA: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: (sworn states)

MR NODADA: Mr Pama you are presently a member of the South African Police Services holding the rank of a Sergeant and stationed at Umtata?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes it is so.

MR NODADA: During 1993 and in particular on the 18th February 1993 were you already a policeman?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes it is so.

MR NODADA: Were you sent to the University of Transkei to assume duties on the afternoon of that day?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes it is so.

MR NODADA: What time did you report for duties there?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I think it was about - after five we were supposed to ..[inaudible] about half past four but we could not get there at four, I think we got there at about before six.

MR NODADA: And how many were you as police officers?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We were three policemen, Sergeant Mkizwayo, Sergeant Klokozile and myself.

MR NODADA: What duties were you going to perform at the University?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: The work we were supposed to do was to go and get the money because they were calculating the monies from the registration of students.

MR NODADA: And when you arrived at the University where did you actually go?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We went to the auditorium where they were registering students.

MR NODADA: Did you find any people inside the auditorium?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We found people inside but people who were shown off to whom we went to where the security guards of the university who were two.

MR NODADA: Did you speak to them when you arrived?  Did you introduce yourselves to the security officers when you got to the auditorium?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We introduced ourselves, when we got there we asked them everything in terms of the registration because that was the first time we went there.

MR NODADA: And the other people that you found there, what did they appear to be, did they appear to be students or university employees?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Others we thought may be students, others perhaps workers of the university because they were inside the venue where we were asking where the money is actually kept where everything was happening.

MR NODADA: Again in question that when you arrived there, there were no police officers from whom you took over duties, is that so?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It's not so, there were policemen there who we went to relieve.

MR NODADA: I see, so you took over from those policemen?  Where did you meet them?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: The police we met at about the door, others were inside, two inside, others - because we get late after the time we're supposed to relieve them, we got them like inside and outside.

MR NODADA: Did they show you where the money was, that is the police officers who had been on guard duty there from whom you took over?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: They did not show us where the money was, we asked at the security of the university because we knew that were not working at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that these policemen whose duty was now over were anxious to get back to there station and get off duty?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: May you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that the policemen whom you relieved were getting anxious because you were some hours late and they wanted to leave and get back to their station?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I would not think that they were in a rush.

MR NODADA: And the security officers who were there did they show you where the money was?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: The police did not show us where the money was, it's one policeman who told us we must ask the security guards where the money was because they were all working that day.

MR NODADA: And the security guards did they show you or tell you where the money was?