Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR BERGER: If I am correct, when you refer to the Steering Committee and the middle committee, you are referring to one and the same committee, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You see, you were asked that question on page 66, paragraph 5, please identify those persons who were members of the Steering Committee of kwaMadala during 17 June 1992 and your answer, page 70, paragraph 5, Moses Mthembu, Vanana Zulu and myself, although I played just a minor role on this committee.  Is that answer correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Did you forget about Moses Mthembu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.  I did point out that it has been a long time since this happened.  We then parted ways and it has been a long time since we parted ways.
	Not that I am trying to hide something.  Moses Mthembu was actually more on the side of the firm than us.

MR BERGER: Mr Mqambileni Buthelezi was asked the same question at page 50, question 3.  He was asked please identify those persons who were members of the Steering Committee of kwaMadala during 17 June 1992 and his answer which is at page 53, paragraph 3, is that the members were Moses Mthembu, Ntuli, Mkwanazi and Shohesa.  You can see some of the names are the same as you have given, some are different, but he leaves you off this committee.
	My question to you is who really was serving on this Steering Committee or middle committee?

MR MKHIZE: You have already referred to Mkwanazi, yes, now I can remember that Mkwanazi and Ntuli were part of this committee.

MR BERGER: Where is Ntuli now?  Ntuli?

MR MKHIZE: I think he is on retirement or pension, but I am not quite sure.

MR BERGER: And Mkwanazi?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he is still around.

MR BERGER: Is that Sonny Michael Mkwanazi?

MR MKHIZE: No.  No, I do not know his name quite well, I just know he is Mkwanazi.

MR BERGER: Apparently there was also a senior committee in the hostel, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who served on the senior committee?

MR MKHIZE: This is the very same committee that I am talking about, there was no other committee above it.

MR BERGER: So the committee that we refer to as the Steering Committee or the middle committee, was also known as the senior committee, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Have a look please at page 70 of the bundle of documents.   You were asked in question 4 on page 66, to supply details about the structures of the various committees at kwaMadala.  These questions were discussed with you by your legal representatives, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you then gave answers through an Interpreter which were then recorded from page 69 onwards, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I think so.

MR BERGER: You said there at page 69, paragraph 4.1 that there was a Steering Committee which was in control of the hostel.  That is the committee that you have told us about where you were on, Vanana Zulu, Moses Mthembu and the others.  You were all in control of the hostel, would that be right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you say in paragraph 4.2, the political structures were the senior men and the youth.  The political structures had nothing to do with the management structure in the hostel.
	Are you saying that there were ISCOR structures, the committee that we have just referred to and political structures which were separate from those?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember quite well.

MR BERGER: You say in paragraph 4.3 that the youth was responsible for the organisation of rallies, whilst the senior structure was responsible for discipline within the IFP party as well as decision making that relates to the IFP within the hostel.
	If I were to ask you who were the IFP leaders in the hostel, who would you say they were?

MR MKHIZE: I was one of the leaders of the IFP.

MR BERGER: And who else?

MR MKHIZE: People such as Mkwanazi and Shohesa and the Prince himself.

MR BERGER: And Moses Mthembu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, and Moses Mthembu.  But then I don't want to include him that much because he was working for the firm, he was working under the directorship of the firm.

MR BERGER: When you say in paragraph 4.4 the Steering Committee was ultimately responsible to ISCOR, the structure I was the leader of, was called AmaButho and in that capacity, I was the leader of the IFP in the hostel.
	As I understand your evidence now, you are not saying that you were the most senior leader of the IFP in the hostel, you are saying, and if I am wrong, correct me, you are saying you were one of the leaders of the IFP in the hostel but there were others, such as Mkwanazi, Shohesa, Ntuli, Prince Vanana Zulu, would that be correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And who would be the overall leader of the IFP in the hostel, who would be the most senior leader of the IFP in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: It was Prince Vanana Zulu and Mthembu.  Mthembu was in that senior position in so far as his job is concerned, being an employee of ISCOR.  That is at least the knowledge that I have.

MR BERGER: And underneath Vanana Zulu and Moses Mthembu, who was next in line?

MR MKHIZE: It was Ntuli, Mkwanazi as well as Shohesa and then we would be just part of that list, at the bottom of those names.

MR BERGER: When you say we, you are referring to yourself?  You would be at the bottom of that list of names?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And Damara Qunchu, he was not on that committee, he was your assistant?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not part of this committee.

MR BERGER: Would it be correct to say that Damara Qunchu was the leader of the group of men that came from Umsinga to the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what Victor Mthembu says at page 5, paragraph 5.  Let me start with paragraph 4, he says the Indunas of the IFP at the hostel at the time, were Prince Vanana Zulu and a certain Mkhize who came from Umsinga.
	They were the Indunas of the kwaMadala hostel during 1990 and up to 1993.  Do you have any comment?

MR MKHIZE: No, Qunchu did not hold any position at that time.

MR BERGER: No, no, you are not listening to what I am reading.  I didn't read anything about Qunchu.

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat.

MR BERGER: Okay, I will read slowly.  Mr Victor Mthembu says the following, he says that the Indunas of the IFP at the hostel at the time, were Prince Vanana Zulu, that is Mtwana and a certain Mkhize, who came from Umsinga.  They were the Indunas of the kwaMadala hostel during 1990 and up to 1993.  Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: I am aware that the Prince was the person responsible for the entire hostel.  I am not aware of that Mkhize from Umsinga, because I am from Mahlabatini, not Umsinga.
	I know that I was an Induna at the hostel, but I do not come from Umsinga.

MR BERGER: Well the Mkhize that Mr Victor Mthembu is referring to, is you.  You are the Mkhize he refers to.

MR MKHIZE: I do not dispute that, but I dispute the fact that that Mkhize came from Umsinga, I do not come from that place.

MR BERGER: He goes on in paragraph 5 and he says during 1990 Mkhize and Damara Qunchu came from Umsinga, kwaZulu-Natal to come and help us against the ANC.
	It is correct that you came to the hostel in 1990, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that Damara Qunchu came from Umsinga in 1990?

MR MKHIZE: That is not correct.  Qunchu used to work at Cape Gate, he had been working there for a very long time.  When the conflict started, he had already been there.

MR BERGER: He goes on to say that they came at the beginning of the violence in Sebokeng in 1990, after the ANC had started burning the houses of the Zulu's and members of the IFP in Sebokeng, which resulted in all the Zulu's and IFP members gathering at the kwaMadala hostel.  Would that be correct?