Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-18

MR VALLY: So on the technical side involving the chemical and biological warfare you would have to accept Dr Basson's word?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: So what control did you have of this project whatsoever? You didn't know about the finances. You didn't know about the chemistry. You didn't know about the biology. If Dr Wouter Basson was to lie to you would you know he is lying?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Well Mr Vally I would like to say to you that if you are in a position of the chief of an arm of service where you have 27 different statutory professions, where you have all the other State functions - personnel, logistics, finance and Intelligence and operations. And where you have to do management services you have no choice other than to rely on experts in a particular field. I do that exactly as I think this Commission operates. This Commission and the Commissioners have to rely on their experts and their field workers to advise them and to guide them. It would be totally impossible for an organisation like the medical service to have at its head somebody who can deal with everyone of the issues on his own personal basis. It is not possible.
 So what I am saying to you is here is a man who became a brigadier at a very young age just before I became Surgeon-General. He obviously had the trust of the entire Defence Force and of the Cabinet because that type of appointment is approved at that kind of level. He had the total support of my predecessor. The system that was created to run this project and the way that he had operated was then running already for 8 years when I took over. It is quite impossible to then begin to question the way that he carries out his dealings. His word was accepted. I say that and it is true. His word was accepted not only by me but also by the co-ordinating management committee. 
 I said to you although I was project manager the control over the project was done by a committee. Whether it was wise or not I don't know. But the committee shared the responsibility. The Chief of the Defence Force was the chairman of the committee and it had three sub-committees. The one was designed to look after security. The second one was designed to look after financial affairs and the third one was the sub-committee of which Brigadier Basson was the chairman that was the technical committee that dealt with the actual research and development at grassroots level or ground floor level.

MR VALLY: So the reports that were given to President Mandela after the second demarche was based on what you were advised regarding the technical aspects by Brigadier Basson?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes Sir. And what had emerged with the discussions (...intervention)

MR VALLY: And when was this again? Will you remind us?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: When Mr Mandela was President?

MR VALLY: Yes.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: On the project?

MR VALLY: Yes.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I believe it was in August 1994.

MR VALLY: When in February 1994 you already believed that Dr Wouter Basson had abused the project.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: And I conveyed that to President Mandela.

MR VALLY: But your only basis for informing President Mandela is what Brigadier Basson advised you because you have no knowledge on chemistry and biology.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir. No, no, no Sir I am sorry that is not true.

MR VALLY: I see.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: At that stage I was being given all the support also from the OSEO to inform President Mandela about what they were beginning to discover and beginning to emerge.

MR VALLY: My question is this; as regards the biological and the chemical component of the Chemical and Biological Warfare Programme of the South African Defence Force established amongst other front companies Delta G, Roodeplaat under the 7th Battalion whose officer commanding (...intervention)

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Not under 7th Battalion. I am sorry it was not part of 7th Battalion.

MR VALLY: I am sorry. Alright fine. Under the project officer Brigadier Basson.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Correct.

MR VALLY: Your information to President Mandela on the Chemical and Biological Warfare aspects was based on what Brigadier Basson told you?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Originally certainly but (...intervention)

MR VALLY: I am talking August 1994 a report to President Mandela.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir I am sorry I don't agree with that.

MR VALLY: What was it based on?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: It was based on the collective information that I had gathered over the years and have learnt from my predecessor and from the other members of the CMC and from a new project officer and from the OSEO investigation and from National Intelligence.

MR VALLY: I see. And who did you rely on for technical information on chemical and biological warfare?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Certainly in that regard that was Dr Basson. To a lesser extent Colonel Steyn.

MR VALLY: So in that regard on the technical aspects of chemical and biological warfare we are talking about technical aspects we talking about research?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: We talking about development?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Correct.

MR VALLY: We talking about production?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Of chemical and biological weapons you got that from Dr Basson?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: That is correct.

MR VALLY: In August 1994? Which is when you made a report?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally no you are right in a sense the extended detail that was given also to the TRC at a later stage in the briefing that I gave the TRC I had gone back to Dr Basson particularly for the parliamentary group presentations that I had to make. I had to make a presentation to (...intervention)

MR VALLY: When was this?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I have it here somewhere but let me just finish what I am trying to say to you.

MR VALLY: Sure.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Whenever we had to make a presentation after Dr Basson had left the Defence Force and after he had been pensioned off he was still in the citizen force. He was later on re-appointed in the permanent establishment. Not in the permanent force but in the full time component of the Defence Force as a civilian, as a physician. It is true to say that I had made use of his knowledge to give me a further explanation into the details of the substances that had been studied under some of the headings that I gave you. That certainly included the presentation that I made for you in January 1997. It certainly if you look at that document you will see that it is also based on the document that was given or the explanation that was given to the parliamentary committee on public accounts.
 So your question is right. I had to rely heavily on him to give me details about the technical aspects. But certainly Colonel Steyn who is not a chemist. Who is a doctor who has become an anaesthetist he gained quite a lot of knowledge with his experience in terms of the chemical weapons convention and the biological convention and he had to help me with some of the technical details. 
 And in this hearing I have been referring a number of times to the need that I have that Professor Forbes can advise us about some of the technical details.

MR VALLY: General I understand that (...intervention)
 For the record Professor Peter Forbes has had absolutely nothing to do with advising you about any issue whatsoever.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I am not saying advising me I am saying (...intervention)

MR VALLY: No, no just for the record would you confirm that?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Thanks.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: I didn't say that. I said advising the TRC with regard to some of these.

MR VALLY: Fair enough I hear that but you are presently on the sub-committee or chairing the sub-committee of the National Chemical Anti-proliferation Council on chemical and biological weapons.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes that is correct.