Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-15

KARL WEBBER: I was in hospital for plus-minus two weeks, I had no use of my right arm. It was a lot of work up and down to Cape Town to a specialist that could do operations on fingers.  I've been back and forth three times on my own expense, all expenses paid for on my behalf.  I've had eight EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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pins and plates put in my elbow which was, the bone graft 
was taken out to put in there to restore the use of the arm which was just about off as well, it was shattered completely.  I still have further operations to go through, removing the fixtures in my elbow and straightening my  right fingers.

MR SANDI: Can you please tell the Commission more about the physical limitations, specifically the kind of things you can't do now.

KARL WEBBER: I can't do on my own?

MR SANDI: Yes things that you can't do on your own.

KARL WEBBER: Ja it took me plus-minus a year to teach myself how to get dressed, to feed myself.  There are things I can't do.  I can't get to the right hand side of my face because of the fixtures in my elbow.  I need assistance when I need to be shaved, I need assistance when I need to be bathed and there are many other things that I need to be helped with which I can't do, I've tried to sort of cope on my own but it's a bit difficult. So there is someone that assists me, helping me with things and...(intervention)

MR SANDI: Is there anything else that you would like the Commission to know about you and the state you are in as of today?

KARL WEBBER: Well as I said, it's, I've accepted the condition, I mean, it's changed my life overnight but I've learned to do things, I've learned to accept a few things and there are still other things that have to be done to improve the conditions of myself on doing certain things, yes.

MR SANDI: I may be asking you the same question as I've asked you before, but maybe in a different way. What do you
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expect the Commission to do? What would you like the 
Commission to do.

KARL WEBBER: Well I've come to through up until now with aid from friends, family, unemployed and financially wise it is a strain, as I say I'm living on R410 a month, whereas I've got to put a bit of support in towards the people that are looking after me.  As I say, I can't accept charity for the rest of my life, I can't accept to be looked after for the rest of my life.  I want to be independent and I want to lead a normal life again.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Webber that is all I've got to ask you.  I don't know, the members of the panel will have one or two questions maybe to clarify something.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Questions?

MEMBER OF PANEL: Mr Webber thank you very much indeed. You say that you would not be able to identify the person or persons who did this to you.  In the course of the investigation, did the police at any time show you photographs or ask you to attend an identity parade or anything of that kind at all?

KARL WEBBER: I was shown several photographs of guys that were responsible for a few attacks in Eastern Cape which could  have been linked to the Highgate Hotel.  I was in a state of shock in hospital where I was brought the photos to identify. As I say if I had seen or identified the guys, it would have been a problem with the guy wearing a balaclava, having all the necessary equipment to do such a thing, so at this time I could say I can't identify them.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Just one other question, you mentioned some of the responses which you would welcome from the Commission and you've talked very bravely about your own
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determination to try to lead a normal life, would you want the Commission to investigate further, to find out who did this to you?

KARL WEBBER: Ja, I would like to, you know, I would like justice should be done.  I don't feel someone can do this and just walk away a free person, and it should be fully investigated as to what political organisation, who was behind this?  What the reason was, who gave the orders to do such a thing?  And I feel that, as I say again, justice should be done.

MEMBER OF PANEL: So you would not object us, the Commission taking this matter further.

KARL WEBBER: Not at all.

MEMBER OF PANEL: I'm sorry I have one other question, it's not an easy thing to do what you've done, there are other people that you know who were hurt, injured, in that or perhaps similar operations in this time of conflict.  Would you encourage them to come to the Commission if they ask you to, how do you feel about that?

KARL WEBBER: Yes I would.  You know it's hopefully something to start a new beginning.  Hopefully things will become of what everyone who's sitting here, telling the Commission of what has happened in the past to them, to myself and to other victims, and I would advise or suggest people to come forward, if they can't testify, to give statements.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you very much Mr Webber, that's all I have.

KARL WEBBER: Thank you.

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: Can I just ask one question please, what would be your attitude to perpetrators of this sort with regard to the whole hope for unity and reconciliation in
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the country?

KARL WEBBER: What my attitude would be?

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: Yes.

KARL WEBBER: As I say it's not for me to decide, there are laws in courts for this.  I've got a normal life to lead, I've got to think about myself.  What happens to the guys that did this to me is for the courts to decide, not for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Wendy?

MEMBER OF PANEL: If in the course of the Commission's investigative process, the perpetrators were to become known, and they applied for amnesty in terms of the law,and the Commission, which has a committee to look at that, were to be satisfied that they've made a full disclosure and that
in terms of the tests for the granting of amnesty, they are entitled to amnesty, what would your attitude be?  If they were granted amnesty in terms of the law?

KARL WEBBER: This has happened to me, it's not forgotten about, it never will be forgotten about.  It would be deep down inside, hurt to know that the guy would be a free man on the street if he applied for amnesty. To walk away a free person where he has killed innocent people, disabled innocent people and one just has to, if it is granted, to accept it.  I'm not a magistrate or someone to stand up and give my say, what should happen to the guys but I think they should be tried and hear what their side of the story is before amnesty is granted to the perpetrators or to find out from them what their purpose of it was for doing innocent people with friends.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: I had suggested that we might go on till EAST LONDON  HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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five, but it probably is right to accept the suggestion of the Regional Commissioner, no the National Commissioner.  The proposal had been originally that we end this session for today at four o'clock.  The two witnesses have very graciously agreed that they would be willing to stand over until tomorrow and they would be the first two witnesses to be taken tomorrow.  We would not normally want to do this but I think that we, as the first day and the pressure of hearing the stories, order please, will you please sit down until we've finished, nobody should leave.  Can you just stop the people going out whilst I address the Commission. We will be breaking to resume at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  Thank you very much.     
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