Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

CHAIRPERSON: But you see there is also a suggestion and it is possibly taken further, I am not sure,  that one of the police officers had lost his head and then he started shooting with his uzi and then a shooting started?  You know, this is a whole other tint on this incident itself, but you naturally cannot comment on this.  But let's suppose this is what had happened, let's suppose that someone had lost his head and started shooting and then the shooting broke out and that this is how the whole thing took place, now we get the situation where the whole group withdraws immediately from the scene, there is no immediate attempt made to arrest the attackers, and this is the type of questions that do arise.  You say that you naturally cannot give comment on the immediate situation at the scene, we understand that.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, the Commander at the scene would do this according to his circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the point that is made here.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I've got no problem with this Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Shezi.

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman.   By that time you had known Nofomela for quite some time, or let's say you have known him very well?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: At that time, is he a person you knew him to be okay upstairs, was he mentally sound?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: He is not somebody who would see things that other people don't see?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, not that I know of.

MR SHEZI: Why would he say you were around in the local vicinity at that time and he saw you there and then you are saying you were not there?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I would probably have said the same if I had waited like him and if I tried to get a stay of execution.  I could believe that this possibly could be the reason for this and I don't blame him for this.

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHEZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Shezi.  Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.  Mr de Kock, can you just tell us the askaris who came to Durban, what type of weapons would they have been issued with?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, they would have had their service pistols, 9mm pistols and in the case of the ladies, .32 pistols and then some of them had Uzi's or HMKs.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Uzi's and what else?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It HMK, that is the Walter hand-machine gun.

MS PATEL: Can you give me an indication if I were to shoot with a 9mm pistol, how far away from the point where I shot, would the cartridge fall?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, this would depend from weapon to weapon, I cannot give you the distances now, but it would have to be close to the shooter.

CHAIRPERSON: This is regarding a Baretta and the P38, I think that is one of the others that you mentioned?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, some of the weapons throw it out to the left or to the right and other slightly to the back, it depends from fabrication to fabrication.  I am not an expert.

CHAIRPERSON: But you say that you would not expect that if one of those weapons had to be fired, that the cartridge would end up very far away from the point where the shot had been fired?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, it would be in the vicinity of the person doing the shooting.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you say within a radius of two steps, three steps or five steps from the person doing the shooting?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I would say to be safe between one step and four steps, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay, and sorry, a .76 cartridge, 7.65 cartridge, sorry, from what kind of firearm would that cartridge come?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It comes from a .32 calibre Chairperson, there are hundreds of makes of .32 calibre, but the police use the Walter PPK and this was issued to female members and this was a .32 calibre, this is 7.65 mm's.

MS PATEL: All right, and 6.35 cartridge?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: 6.?

MS PATEL: Sorry, 6.35 cartridge?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is a .25 pistol Chairperson.  This would be the ones that women normally carry around in their purses, it is very small, actually it is useless although it could be deadly at times, but it was not issues to the police and it was not a standard issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this a little bit more effective than the self-defence spray?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I would rather use the self-defence spray Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: All right, thank you.   Tell me, a 9mm bullet shell that is copper, how does that differ, would that come from a different type of firearm as opposed to the Baretta, the standard Baretta issue or not, does that make a difference?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, you get certain different types of cartridges, but the type issues to the SAP and the Army was bronze, not necessarily bronze, but let's say copper, a copper shell.  Your calibre is 9mm parabellum, this would be 9 x 19mm's, both the P38 and also the Baretta uses the same cartridge.

MS PATEL: All right, and a 9mm lead bullet head?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, not used by the police and also not issues Chairperson, not in your machine pistol like the Uzi or the HMK and also not in the pistol, because this could lead to jamming, to a weapon jamming or not feeding properly, and the point is soft.

MS PATEL: All right, thank you for that.  Can I just move on to a different point.  When you arrived in Durban, your function to a large extent would have been that of a co-ordinator of the various groups, not so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Who would you have liaised with the Durban Security Branch, who would your contact person have been in order to manage this co-ordination?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: We worked under command and this would have been Col Taylor and then the Commander of the Durban Security Branch.

MS PATEL: Okay, so your contact person would have been Col Taylor, would Lt Hunter have fallen under the command of Col Taylor?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MS PATEL: No, he wouldn't?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay.  And then as part of your explanation that this operation wasn't clandestine or couldn't have been clandestine, it is because there wasn't just a shooting and people disappeared, that is correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MS PATEL: But we have heard evidence in other cases where operations were clandestine or where things had gone wrong, where subsequent to that, in a sense the sweeper would be called in who would do various things, amongst others, would co-ordinate the giving of statements, would co-ordinate the version that is then given at the trial or the inquest, not so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr de Kock, maybe an immediate follow up on that, assuming that this was supposed to have been a clandestine operation and unfortunately some of the people who were attacked, survived and would possibly give evidence, was it not normal that a sweeper would come in and prepare the statements for an inquest and everything in that fashion, is such a situation not what usually used to happen in the past?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: If it had been a clandestine operation, yes Chairperson, then something like this could happen, but this was not a clandestine operation.