Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

JOHN RADEBE: Because that person did not know that the gun did not have ammunition by seeing that gun he would stop.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was not your intention that Mr Mkhwanazi should kill Ms Ndumo?

JOHN RADEBE: It was my intention because that gun had no ammunition he would not kill her.

CHAIRPERSON: It was or wasn't?  I'm finding it difficult, I don't know whether it is your evidence, which is very confusing because it's contradictory, or the problem with the translation.  Was it your intention to have Ms Ndumo killed by Mr Mkhwanazi when you gave him the gun which had no ammunition.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, it was my intention.

CHAIRPERSON: How can it be your intention to have somebody killed by someone when you give Mr Mkhwanazi a gun without any ammunition?  How can you intend, how could you have intended for Ms Ndumo to have been killed by Mr Mkhwanazi?

JOHN RADEBE: I knew that we would take them, then we would look for ammunition at Sipapo's place, then later they would be shot, because both of them did not know as to whether those guns had ammunition or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not tell Mr Mkhwanazi that the gun you had handed to him had no ammunition?

JOHN RADEBE: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

JOHN RADEBE: I knew that after I gave him that gun it is up to him to check the gun as to whether how many ammunition would be there.  That is why he pointed the gun at her and they came together.

CHAIRPERSON: Why should it be up to a subordinate to check whether a weapon has any ammunition when it is given to him by a person who is in a senior position?

JOHN RADEBE: Any member within the unit or we are at a certain patrol, if I give that person a gun, it is up to him to check as to whether that gun is ready for use or not, because I would give him a gun without noticing as to whether it is in order or not in order.  Then he would be injured whilst he's carrying this gun.  I believe that after he, when he pointed the gun at his person he knew already that there were no bullets inside.

CHAIRPERSON: How could he have known that?

JOHN RADEBE: Because immediately the gun is in his hand he must check the gun first at to whether is it in use, is it ready for use.

CHAIRPERSON: If Mr Mkhwanazi says that he believed that he was acting under orders, and therefore was justified in committing the offences in question, and your evidence is that the order was to pursue Ms Ndumo, and he did just that as you had ordered, he pursued Ms Ndumo, was able to bring Ms Ndumo back, you then continued to shoot Ms Ndumo.  What order would you have given to Mr Mkhwanazi in those circumstances?

JOHN RADEBE: I don't understand when you said he pursued him.

CHAIRPERSON: Pursued him.  Mr Mkhwanazi pursued Ms Ndumo, as you had ordered that he should do, brought her back, and then you continued to shoot her.  Would I be correct that he had then complied with your order of pursuing her and of bringing her back to where you were, which was, according to your evidence, next to the gate at the tavern?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Moloisane, are you closing your case of Mr Radebe in respect of the Elsie Mokoena assault and the killing of Ms Hapile Ndumo?  Do you wish to call further witnesses?

MS MOLOISANE: There are two other witnesses Madam Chair that we still would like to call.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of this incident?

MS MOLOISANE: In respect of the incident of the 15th of August.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think we'll give you an opportunity to do so.  We are through with Mr Radebe.

MS MOLOISANE: Before I call the other witnesses to come and testify, Madam Chair, I don't know whether I am allowed to ask at this stage a question that emanated from the questions that were put to the applicant by the Committee, and in particular the question that, the questions that were put by the learned Committee Member, Mr Lax.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you may do so.

MS MOLOISANE: Now Mr Radebe, as question was put to you that there were a whole range of reasons that led to, or that made you, to kill Hapile Ndumo and to attempt to kill Elsie Mokoena.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: And the answers that you gave, according to the interpretation that I got, were preceded by I thought that they were spying for the IFP, I thought they were this, this, this.  So can we just clarify that to the Committee.  I'm not quite sure whether it was a problem of interpretation or whether it was your own problem, but would you please clarify this whole issue as to what led to the killing Hapile Ndumo and the attempted killing of Elsie Mokoena.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane may I just get clarity?  You obviously are asking this question because you believe that there could have been translation problems.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That you are quite fluent in Sesotho.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are sitting next to your client and can actually hear him quite well as he gives his evidence in Sesotho, and are able to listen to the translation which is in English.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You are also willing to just raise this issue without resorting to him having to give an explanation, if you feel that there was a problem with a translation in this regard, just draw our attention to that, and whether what your client has said was I thought or I know.

MS MOLOISANE: Actually what the applicant said was, I believed, the information that he received concerning the activities of the two girls.

CHAIRPERSON: May I also say whenever you pick up this peculiar situation where things have not been properly translated just bring it immediately to the attention of the Chair so that we can appropriately attend to that problem before we move on.

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you Madam Chair.  Shall I continue to call another witness at this stage.  I am through with,

CHAIRPERSON: You are through at this point.  We'll take it as correct that what was said was not his thinking but his belief.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you Madam Chair.  At this stage I'll call another witness, Stanley Gqiba.

CHAIRPERSON: Should we adjourn?
Mr Stanley Gqiba, what language do you speak?

STANLEY GQIBA: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: We would prefer that you choose a language that you are most comfortable in.  If you would like to lead your evidence in Zulu, please say so.  Don't say even Sotho will be okay.  We want to know which language you prefer to give your evidence in.

STANLEY GQIBA: Zulu.

INTERPRETER: English

MR LAX: Zulu Mr Interpreter.  You've just interpreted Zulu for us.  You said English instead of Zulu.

INTERPRETER: Thank you very much for the correction.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please stand Mr Gqiba.  Are you prepared to take the oath?

STANLEY GQIBA: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Now you may be seated.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair and Committee Members.  Mr Gqiba, where do you stay?

STANLEY GQIBA: Zone 12 Extension.

MS MOLOISANE: Is that Sebokeng?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Are you a member of any political organisation?

STANLEY GQIBA: Yes, the ANC.

MS MOLOISANE: On the 15th of August 1993, to which political organisation were you aligned, or to which organisation did you belong?

STANLEY GQIBA: I was a member of the ANC youth league.

MS MOLOISANE: Did you have any portfolio there, or not?

STANLEY GQIBA: I had several portfolios from the treasurer to secretary, etc.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean in 1993?

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Madam Chair.  If you say etcetera, which other portfolios are you referring to?

STANLEY GQIBA: We used to hold Annual General Meetings, so that a new structure had to be elected every 12 months.  I was a treasurer in 1991 and secretary in 1992, and chairperson in 1993.