Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I will put it this way.  I do not want to respond to questions carelessly.  When I made the estimation around one, it was because when we went into a shop it was, we were told that we could not get in because it was five to one and the estimation with regards to 3pm is because there was a soccer match on TV.  The distance between Port Shepstone and the flats is not long.
	When we arrived we went into the room and spent some time and thereafter went out into the shade.  This took time.  And in-between the time that we sat in the shade and the time that the applicant arrived, I cannot estimate just how long it took and therefore it is difficult to answer those questions.

MR LAX: Now how long had you been at college for at that time?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: It was my first year at college.

MR LAX: So you'd only left the area from about January of that year?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I did not leave in January, I had left in  1991, and resided in Durban, and I joined the college in 1993.  I had come back for my practical during that Easter period.  After my practical I was just about to leave because I had planned to leave on that day, but changed my mind and I decided to go on the following day, which would have been a Sunday.

MR LAX: The point I'm getting to is this, you've said that you weren't aware of any major violence between the IFP and the ANC in that area, is that right?  Did I understand you correctly?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I'd have to clarify that.  If you've been away from an area for a long time and if you want to travel in that area, you would enquire if it is safe to do so.  I was informed that you can travel anywhere because you did not have a problem with anyone.  That is why I went past the applicant's home in the morning when I went to town.
	Before I left for town I had consulted with the people who resided in the area, I just enquired what the situation was like, not necessarily the political situation but also with regards to crime and safety, if one is safe to travel around in the area.

MR LAX: So you didn't know that there was a lot of political violence going on in that area at that time?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: From the information that I received the violence was not as serious.  As far as I'm aware, the violence started after that incident.  Maybe we have different understandings of what that violence means, but as far as I am aware, after the incident that was when houses were burnt, that was when people were being shot and killed.
	With regards to political affiliation that has existed for a long time, but the war only started after that incident.  There might have been tension, but I was told that there was no war, there was no political war in the area.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Sebenza, I heard you saying Brian was not affiliated to any political organisation.  I can't remember whether you said anything insofar as Ndovela is concerned.  Was he affiliated to any political organisation?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: As I mentioned before, I had met him on that day for the first time, at the taxi rank when we were about to board the taxi.  It would be difficult for me to know because I just met him on that day.

MR SIBANYONI: But when the incident happened, you were present and you observed what was happening.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: What would you say, what caused the applicant to shoot these two people?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: As far as I know - I do not think I should answer that question because he is the person who shot at these people.  It should be difficult for me to respond to that.  He just asked that person: "What are you looking at?" and started shooting.  I am therefore not in a position to say why he shot at that person.  Why he shot at them I do not know.

MR SIBANYONI: Is there anything which Brian which provoked the applicant to shoot at him?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: When he started shooting we were shocked and we ran away because we were not armed and we had just been sitting around enjoying ourselves.  I only heard today that he shot at Brian because he had grabbed him, but when that happened I was no longer there because I had already fled.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any further witnesses?

MS MTANGA: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: ... take?

MR DE KLERK: Argument won't be too long, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Should we dispose of it and then get on to the next matter?

MR DE KLERK: I would agree to that, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, firstly I would just make the following submission, that the applicant's application for amnesty was done by himself and also later a further affidavit was obtained from the applicant by the Amnesty Commission itself.  
	Firstly, the crux of the applicant's application is firstly that he was a member of the IFP, was trained ...(indistinct) Zulu, where he received training with firearms, as he mentioned.  In his statement he also mentioned G3's and so forth.  This is not an unknown fact and surely has been testified many, many times before this Commission.
	At that stage he was 21 years of age.  He returned back to his area, that is the Baboi area near Port Shepstone.  He did not receive a firearm, he actually went and asked for a firearm, which was then handed to him.  It is my submission that out of that it seems that he was quite keen in protecting what he perceived as ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But he hasn't said he was protecting anybody except himself, has he?  This is not a case where he said: "I was protecting my community", this is a case where he said: "I lost my temper and I decided to clean them out".