Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson, I did not count it.  I was surprised.  I told him that I did not want it and he told me that you must take it.  He had seen to himself and the other members.  I took the money and I loaded it into my vehicle, where it lay there for about two or three weeks.  Afterwards I discovered, during those two or three weeks, that it was an amount of about R130 000 to R140 000.  Initially I did not know what to do with the money.  It sounds strange, but that is true.  I later bought a plot in Pretoria, which I gave to Warrant Officer Nortje when he told me that he and his wife wanted to buy a house or wanted to build a house and I gave this plot to him.  I think it was worth, it cost about R96 000 or R97 000 and the rest of the money, I bought a second plot with a house built on it, which I gave to Captain Kobus Klopper.  Initially I would have stayed there myself, but Klopper approached me and asked me if I could assist him as I did with Warrant Officer Nortje which seemed like blackmail to me, but it was not important to me and I gave this plot to him.  I must mention here that there was no benefit to me from any of these actions.

MR HATTINGH: On page 81 of Volume 1 of the documents which serves before the Committee, there appears an extract which would seem to me as if it came from the Truth Commission's report.   I would just like to read this to you.
"Nieuwoudt asked for SAMS seven assault rifles, explosives, limpet mines, handgrenades, RPG7's, explosive devices, machine guns and ammunition and this was delivered to East London, to a house belonging to a Mr Kruger who worked with Nieuwoudt.  On the night they left, Nieuwoudt gave De Kock a bag full of money saying "dit is joune".  De Kock refused the money.  Nieuwoudt insisted and said that the money came from sources of his.  He said that he had already taken care of himself and his men.  The bag contained R160 000.  De Kock bought a plot with this money which he later gave to Willie Nortje.  He used the remainder money for a deposit on a house in Lynwood which he later gave to Chappies Klopper, house 14 Ministerial."
	Is this the version to which you have given evidence?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever give evidence to this effect, as it appears in this report before the Amnesty Committee?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson, this is the first time today.

MR HATTINGH: So do you know where this information comes from that appears in this report?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, I cannot recall right now whether I have submitted such a report or have made such a statement, I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: Were you approached by Investigative Officers of the TRC?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, very regularly.

MR HATTINGH: And with the full knowledge and co-operation of your Attorney, Mr Hugo, did you consult with him?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: The information which they requested, did you supply them with it?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And is it possible that during such an instance, you have given this information?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is possible Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You don't recall it?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Is it a correct version as it appears on page 87?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Is it correct that you did not supply these weapons in exchange for any remuneration and the money was given afterwards to you?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Just to clear it up for you - is that the amount of R160 000 could not have bought ten percent of these weapons?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is my version.

MR HATTINGH: When you had supplied these weapons with regard to the weapons, was it in regard to the matter which serves before the Commission, did you know that it was to be used in this coup?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Definitely Chairperson, because this is the type of weapons that one keeps to feel good about yourself, you do not keep it for that purpose, these are assault weapons and that is what they were used for.

MR HATTINGH: Are you able and if you cannot you must say so, but could you place a value on the weapons which you have delivered?

EUGENE DE KOCK: If I had to buy these weapons on the black market, it would not have been less than R1,5 million to R2 million, especially if one has regard for the surface to air missiles.

MR HATTINGH: Did you realise that if these weapons were to be used in a coup that people could be injured or killed?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, that is what usually happens.

MR HATTINGH: It indeed happened that people were killed in this attempted coup?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence that we wish to place before you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hattingh.   Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions that you would like to ask the applicant?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have.  Colonel De Kock, I am just concerned with the impression that were left at members of Vlakplaas, the impression of the approval.  Is it so that Ministers visited Vlakplaas to compliment you for your acts?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, there were regular visits from Ministerial staff, even on a social level.  This was not a irregular situation.

MR CORNELIUS: As Gen Van der Merwe had testified in the COSATU House incident, he gave evidence that he and Min Vlok visited Vlakplaas?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, and this was more than once.

MR CORNELIUS: And thereafter, did you receive remuneration from the Secret Fund, it was no problem to get money from the Secret Fund?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Not at all Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And then you had logistical assistance from the Army and the Intelligence, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And at all times, you permanently liaised with Headquarters?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Headquarters were always informed with regard to the operations.

MR CORNELIUS: With the exception of decisions that members had to take themselves?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times, as in the case of Gen Coetzee, did they have knowledge that murders had been committed and did this have their approval?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.  Just to add to this, the position existed with the Generals, amongst others, Gen Coetzee, that if someone was killed in Swaziland, it was a covert operation.  I believe that murder is universal, if it is here or in Karachi or in Swaziland, if one kills somebody it is murder.

MR CORNELIUS: I would just like to add that I agree.  You refer to Gen Coetzee's evidence before Justice Wilson?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You have read the application and you would have noted that one of the applicants, Mr Vermeulen, and I am spotting now that he said that he would receive some plot  for his assistance?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I do not want to argue that, but we never discussed any plots to be received.

MR CORNELIUS: Not during the planning stages, was any promises made during the planning stages, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What concerns me as well is what would have happened if a member received an instruction from you and he refused?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, I would then approach some of my other members to execute the same order and if somebody didn't want to do it, I would do it myself, all by myself.