Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, the "koyoco" that would normally come, the Vaal Command would have a yellow colour.  The Police "koyoco's", they are grey but they seem to have other spots, just like the Police camouflage.

MR STRYDOM: It seems to me you know quite a lot about these vehicles and the colour that used to travel in that township, so can I gather from that that they used to frequent the township during that period?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You cannot compare what happens now, to the time that has passed.  I am only speaking on what happened then.

MR STRYDOM: I am also referring to that period.  Is it so that those vehicles used to travel there on a very regular basis in the township?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they would normally park there near the Metal Box.  That is where they were on the 17th.

MR STRYDOM: Isn't it so that the holes that were dug and the barriers that were put up, can't really stop those huge vehicles travelling in those streets?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We were not just stopping or preventing vehicles, but the "koyoco's", the vehicles that used to travel along the township and be involved in the killing of people.

MR STRYDOM: But what I put to you is that those barriers and holes can't stop those vehicles travelling in the township, isn't it so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, we only stopped the Police vans.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your question not that these barricades and holes could not stop these motor vehicles?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that is the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, would you please repeat the question to the witness.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: From the 17th, the barricades were no longer effective.

MR STRYDOM: The question is before the 17th, these barricades and holes could not stop these Police or military vehicles travelling in the Boipatong township?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They did prevent them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, what is being put to you is that these barricades that were erected in the township, did not stop Police vehicles from coming into the township?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they used to come into the township and they would manoeuvre around these barricades.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  To get back to the colour of the vehicle, the "koyoco", in front of your house, you testified that you thought now that the attack was about to start, was it important for you to look properly to see whose vehicle was standing outside, the Police or the Vaal Commando or the military or whoever?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I could see it clearly, that it was a Police vehicle.  I am not a child, but I saw it clearly that it was a Police vehicle, I know those vehicles.

MR STRYDOM: Why do you say it was a Police vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They used to pass by the street.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the only reason why you thought at that time that it was a Police vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It is not that I thought it was a Police vehicle, I saw that it was a Police vehicle.

MR STRYDOM: But you can't give the colour of that vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not concentrate on the colour, but I was concentrating on the people coming to attack me.

MR STRYDOM: Just to get clarity, do you know a hippo vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The hippo has an open roof and a Police casspir has a blue light on top, it is yellow in colour and has a blue stripe.

MR STRYDOM: And the only difference between a casspir and a "koyoco" is the position of the door, is that correct or not?  Let me just rephrase, what I want to understand is the difference between a casspir and a "koyoco".

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot speak much about those two, it is my child who is a Policeman who can clearly differentiate between the two, whether the doors are different or not, it is something that I would not know.

MR STRYDOM: According to you is a casspir and a "koyoco" one and the same thing?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, they are not.

MR STRYDOM: How do you distinguish between the two then?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The "koyoco" is big.

MR STRYDOM: It is bigger than a casspir, is that what you are saying?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is how I see it.  I don't know whether it is bigger in age or what, but that is how I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said that the "koyoco" is big, did you say that?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, it is big.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean when you say it is big?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is what I have said.  It is something that is big.  I do not know how I can explain it to you or measure it, but it is bigger than the casspir.

MR LAX: Is it taller, is it wider, is it greater in size?   We are trying to understand.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It is big, it is tall.

MR STRYDOM: The "koyoco's", do they have blue lights or not?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I haven't seen it.   What I did see was the white people who were shooting on top.

MR STRYDOM: When did you see white people shooting on top?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: At the gate at Metal Box, on the very same day, the 17th.

MR STRYDOM: If you say on top, were they standing on the roof, because its got a roof, this "koyoco"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were standing on the ground, they had gotten off the vehicles and they were shooting, pointing on top.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know the word "nyala"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The "nyala" is the smaller one, but I am not sure, I do not want to commit myself, it is only the Police and the military personnel who know precisely what colour the vehicles are.

CHAIRPERSON: You have given evidence here, telling us about a Police motor vehicle that stopped next to your house.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That was a "koyoco".

CHAIRPERSON: What Counsel is trying to find out is whether you can distinguish between the various motor vehicles.  If you can, you will tell us yes, if you cannot, you will say so.  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.  The vehicle that was parked in front of my house was a "koyoco", not a "nyala".

MR STRYDOM: During the course of that night of the attack, did you see a "nyala" at all?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw it when the vehicles were already parked at the gate, that is at the Metal Box gate, I did not see it inside the township.

MR STRYDOM: And you must correct me if I am wrong, is that "nyala" smaller than a casspir?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They are two different Police vehicles.  There is a bigger and a smaller one.  In fact there are three, there is a Police van, then the small and a bigger Police vehicle.

MR STRYDOM: But you said that you saw a "nyala" later in front of Metal Box.  All I want to know is is that vehicle, the "nyala" vehicle you are referring to, is that a smaller vehicle than a casspir?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, but I do not want to commit myself to this.  All I am saying is that the vehicles that I spotted there, were two "koyoco's" and a smaller vehicle with a side door, and it had a light on top as well as a stripe on the side.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that you told your wife and children to go and hide themselves.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Were they hiding themselves from the moment when you said that there is a vehicle outside and the attack has now started until after the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: When I told them this, it was not just that they all went there at the same time, they had to inform everybody who was in the house.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that is not the question, the question is were they hiding themselves for the full duration of the attack until after the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they were in the toilet, they did not leave the toilet.

MR STRYDOM: At what stage did your wife come out of the toilet?  What were you doing at that stage?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I went outside to check if it was safe and to just check on what had happened inside the house.