Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-26

WITNESS:  I am now working for the credit ... (inaudible) ... the house.  Let me just see if the Chairperson has any questions he may want to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to try and get a picture of what made some people IFP and what made other people not IFP, or ANC.

WITNESS:   I don't know the reasons behind that others should be members of the IFP, others members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: What we're trying to understand, was there any connection that maybe they were Zulu-speaking people as opposed to Sotho-speaking people, or was it mixed up?  We're just trying to understand.

WITNESS:   Our community was formed by Xhosas and Sothos, but there were no Zulus.  I don't know why some of them called themselves Inkatha members.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We're just trying to get a picture, and that's very helpful for you to tell us that.  There's just one aspect we haven't covered.  Were your family and your children - were your health affected by this experience in any way?

WITNESS:   It affected my husband.

CHAIRPERSON: In what way?

WITNESS:   After that he was cardiac.  He had a cardiac problem after this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: And the children have been okay?

WITNESS:   My children are okay.  Yes, I am still normal.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're living back in that house now?

WITNESS:   Yes, we went back to that house.  We stayed for a year there, then from there we were able to dismantle the bricks, and from there we built a tearoom and we returned to that house.   How are things now in the township in Rouxville?  Are they quiet, is there peace?   ---   Yes, there's peace now.

CHAIRPERSON: These people who - this family that was involved in destroying your house, do you get on with them okay now?

WITNESS:   Yes, we have reconciled because they are our neighbours.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mrs Sekhopa, thank you very much for coming to give us this story, and some of the context which is very helpful for us to get a picture of what happened, not just to you, but to others.  Just one last question.  Do you know the names of the boys or the children that were shot, so we can follow that up maybe?

WITNESS:   I don't remember them now.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, if you could maybe try and get them for us and let us have them.  Our staff can give you a contact address to give them to us, or to phone it through.  Will that be possible?

WITNESS:   I'll try to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... that particular incident.  Once again thank you very much for coming to tell us this painful story for yourself, and we hope that it has been helpful for you to tell it.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: /CHAIRPERSON

CHAIRPERSON: The next witness today is Mrs Ratefane, Mrs Belina Ratefane.  (Pause)  Good morning, Mrs Ratefane.  Welcome here today.  Thank you for coming in.  You are also from Rouxville, like the previous witness, and you've come to tell us about the death of your son and your son-in-law, who were killed in 1990.  Before you tell us your story can you please take the oath.

BELINA RATEFANE: (Sworn, States)   (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: Now, Mrs Ratefane, you had a son, Jim, who was killed in 1990.  What other children do you have, or do you have any other children?  Just give us an idea of ... (incomplete)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us something just about your family.  Is your husband still alive?  Do you have children other than your deceased son?  Give us a quick idea of what makes up your family.

WITNESS:   I don't have a husband.  My other children are still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... here with you?

WITNESS:   Yes, but two of them are working.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you're an old lady now, you're 68 years old according to your statement.  Are you on pension, or do you do any work?  How do you support yourself?

WITNESS:   I depend on pension, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Now, tell us something about your son, Jim.  How old was he when he died?

WITNESS:   He could have been on his 20th or 30th birthday.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact we have details of his death certificate, and we are able to get the exact dates from that.  You haven't given us the name of your son-in-law, who also died on that day.  Can you recall his full name?

WITNESS:   It's David Sechaba Ratefane - Rafane.  David Sechaba Rafane.

CHAIRPERSON: Rafane.  And we he married to one of your daughters?

WITNESS:   He married my eldest daughter.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, this incident which you are going to tell us about took place in September in 1990 in Rouxville.  Can you just give us some idea of what was happening in the township, Old Location, at that time?  What things were going on?  What was the political situation, if you can remember?

WITNESS:   Other people called themselves Inkatha and others were ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... happening.  Just give us some idea of what was happening at that time.  Was there conflict between those two groups?

WITNESS:   There was no conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, can you tell us about how it came about that your son and your son-in-law died?  What led to them being shot?

WITNESS:   My son left home on Sunday morning on the 9th of September at 9 o'clock.  I didn't know where he went.  It was at that time when I was preparing myself to go to church.  I heard a noise in the township.  When I tried to look around I was not able to locate the noise, but I heard gunshots, but I didn't know where the gunshots came from.  My grandson came, then said to me, "Mr Machona has shot my uncle."  Whilst I was still asking where he was shot, whilst I was still surprised, the child began to cry.  I waited there.  Whilst I was still waiting I heard a cry from certain women.  They were carrying my son-in-law, and they brought him to the house.  Then I went inside the house with them.  Then I said to them they should make him lie on the sofa.  After some time a car came to take him to the hospital.  He was in the car with my sister's daughter, who was shot also, but she was still alive.   When the owner of the car was on the road, or on his way to Aliwal North, together with my son-in-law and that daughter, the car which took my son and other people, they were stopped by the police and they were led to the police station.  Whilst I was still waiting to hear the owner of the car to give me a report then he - a certain person came to me and said, "Are you still here?  The car which took the victims has been taken to the hospital - to the police station."  I went to the police station together with the people I was with in the house.  When we arrived at the police station they agreed that we should go in.  Inside we found that those children were still at the police station.  My son arrived whilst he was still alive at the police station, but when we arrived there he was dead.  The car which went to Aliwal North to take my son-in-law to the hospital, immediately when they arrived at the Aliwal North hospital my son-in-law died.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Ratefane, do you know how long the car was kept at the police station before it was allowed to go on to the hospital?

WITNESS:   I don't know, because when we left the police station we left it at the police station, still there, when we returned home.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did your son-in-law get from the police station to the hospital?

WITNESS:   They were not taken to the police station.  From the township their car proceeded straight to Aliwal North.  The car which was not able to go to hospital was the one which my son was in, and the other girl.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  And now according to your statement your son did not die at the scene in the township where he was shot, but he died in the car at the police station, is that right?

WITNESS:   That's true, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long after the car arrived at the police station did he die?  Do you remember that, or do you know that?