Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, hence I said the negotiations were done actually at a senior level.  Like I said actually the very similar approach strike me when actually I reached my dissatisfaction with the TRC Investigation Unit, they said to me this is how we operate and this how they have decided to approach the case.  They ...[indistinct} at the HRC Hearing because I wanted to find out why was I not approached, they said to me:  "This is how we deal with it".

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you understand the Chairperson's question.  Why did you not make a statement to Mr Isaacs about your personal participation?

LAURENS MBATHA: Madam, I think I did indicate that when I was called overnight - when I was called to arrive at the building, I was called in because Smiles - and with arrangement which was made, he should be handed over - I was not part of the decision making.

CHAIRPERSON: Who decided that it should be Smiles to make a statement to Mr Isaacs?

LAURENS MBATHA: I think the arrangement that at that level - if he can involve also the Premier of Mpumalanga because I think Mr Isaacs also can give testimony to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Major, I - it is one argument which is not your argument as I understand your evidence, it is one argument to say: "I disclosed my personal participation to members of the ANC but then they said no, for strategic reasons or for certain reasons we must protect you because you are too important, you shouldn't go to prison, we must protect you and not mention your name" but that's not what you're saying.
	One might understand that but that's not what you're saying, what you're saying is that you disclosed these things to them and they were also of the view that you must also - your participation must be disclosed and they - you are not saying that they at any stage wanted to protect you.  There is a very strong suggestion here which may be wrong, that you didn't tell them about your personal participation.

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, if you can recall yesterday, I did actually respond to the question because the question was: "What was the reaction from them", then I said: "The position was clear,  justice will have to take it's course" - if you can just recall yesterday Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: They said justice should take it's course - well, they were saying that with reference to the facts at their disposal, not facts held back from them.  But another thing, don't you think that if you had made your statement yourself, the police and everyone else would have been more inclined to accept Mr Smiles - to accept the version put forward by Mr Smiles?
	If Mr Smiles had indicated that he got the hand grenade from you and if you had also personally made a statement for the purpose of saving those people you described as your comrades, don't you think it would have worked better?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, I actually doubt it a bit, I have a reason for it.  Can I go through with my reason?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let's hear.

LAURENS MBATHA: I actually did indicate that I was under Section 29 and at that stage when I was kept there, I was actually told that there was a video cassette which was recorded at the scene - my response actually at that time was: "Then why do you waste your time continuing arresting people, proceed with the case".  I even actually told it very clearly:  "Then there is no need for me to answer any questions further because I think if you say there is a video camera, you have enough evidence".

ADV DE JAGER: But a video camera would surely not reflect your command?

LAURENS MBATHA: At that stage they said it has everything.

ADV DE JAGER: But you've given this command not at the Trust Bank building, you've given it on the approach to the Trust Bank building when you handed the grenade to him.

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, that one I fully agree with you but I'm explaining the time when I was still inside.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, could you kindly explain something else to me then,  yesterday afternoon I asked you whether you instructed Mr Smiles to tell the whole truth to Mr Isaacs and you said: "Yes" and the whole truth would have involved your command, wouldn't it?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: And then I asked you whether in your presence whether he told Mr Potgieter and Mr Isaacs, can you remember that?

LAURENS MBATHA: I remember that portion, it was exactly when you said to me if I was in that vicinity, then I should have heard what was said there and if you can remember I had a problem because I did indicate it also yesterday - the argument pursued then was: "If you were around there, then you should have heard".  And when I came out I came back and said - with my recollection because it became very clear yesterday that with the statement I was a bit puzzled in front of you and I came back this morning and said: "I was on the other side of the room".  The reason brought forward was, Smiles should make the statement, I am not going to put words into his mouth because apparently there is a legal procedure that it interferes with, so I must stay outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, have you ever disclosed to the police your personal participation - starting from the time when you were held in terms of Section 29, right up to the time when you took Mr Smiles to the police?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, the first day actually when I came in - when the application for Section 29 was brought over to me that I had to sign, the reasons actually there were basically the head of the DLB's that were in my possession - they wanted to know where those arms are.  I stood up very clearly Sir and told them, the issues of DLB's is not a secret at this stage but it is a question of when they become exposed to you, then you can act on them.  They said to me I should know one thing for sure about the incident, they have a video cassette.
	It was at that stage Sir, when I told them:  "I am not prepared to enter into any redundancy with you as from now on, you prosecute me, you proceed with the case and you are not going to keep me just sitting inside here because you have the video cassette".  It was at that stage where I actually even entered into hunger strike because I told them: "You have the cassette so don't waste my time".

CHAIRPERSON: Major, you must understand that when we ask questions we do so with a purpose and the purpose of asking a question is to get an answer and please try to keep to the question and just answer the question as it comes.  I asked you whether you ever told - admitted to the police that you gave instructions or orders to Mr Smiles, to throw that hand grenade on that day and also that Mr Smiles got the hand grenade from you - whether you did tell them all that.

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please don't answer in an ambiguous way.

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, in those exact words no, because the question was not posed like that to me.

CHAIRPERSON: But you - at a stage when you - after you had talked with Mr Smiles and told him and convinced him that it would not be fair for those comrades to be in jail while we are the responsible people, you should have volunteered isn't it - that information to police, whether they had asked for it or not.

LAURENS MBATHA: Is it at the time when I was still in?

CHAIRPERSON: At any time, even after you came out.

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, like I said, even the decision that I should go and talk to Smiles, I have indicated to you he was scared to accept it.  We had to sit down, we had to talk about it - that we can't hide this thing further.

CHAIRPERSON: I have no problems with Mr Smiles, he admitted his participation at some stage, I'm asking about you, whether you did tell the police - why didn't you go to the police and tell them about your personal participation?  Let's leave Mr Smiles aside for a while.