Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-14

MR LAX: Well why did you put it in your affidavit if you don't know it?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am not able to give further comment on that.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that there was a Senior Committee in Kwamadala Hostel.  From your own personal knowledge, do you know what their - what the function of the Senior Committee was?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who the members of the Senior Committee were?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think you've given those, okay.  Did they operate within the hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Some of them were employees of ISCOR and some worked in the Vereeniging area.

CHAIRPERSON: But did they reside, did they stay in the hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know where they had their meetings?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: They held meetings inside the hostel, there is a stadium in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Talking about the committee and I understand that to mean that they are just a few individuals who constitute the committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes they are a few.

CHAIRPERSON: Now also in regard to your committee I take that you're just talking about the three individuals who constituted what the Youth Committee, I think it is?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, as a committee, did you hold meeting with the larger membership of the youth?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sometimes, as members of the committee we would meet first and thereafter we would then meet with the other youth members in a general meeting maybe briefing them on certain issues like rallies and conferences at Ulundi.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, now do you know whether the Senior Committee also functioned in the same manner in which you did i.e. meet separately and then at some stage go to the larger membership to brief them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think, sir, that this is how it happened because they would not call up another meeting before they had discussed on the issues first.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you meet meetings together with the Youth Committee - no, no, the Senior Committee members as a Youth Committee?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: With regards to that, we'll explain that if perhaps there was an issue that pertained to the youth, they would call us and we would discuss the issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and would they do the same if it is an issue which effects the larger membership of the Senior Committee and the larger membership of the youth?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, the residents of Kwamadala Hostel were troubled by the fact that their members were attacked and I think you used the word necklaced whenever they went to the township?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any stage when the Youth Committee and the Senior Committee came together to discuss this issue?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We had met on several occasions because we would meet, discuss this matter, try to find a solution to this problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Dlamini the IFP representative in Vereeniging, well in the Vaal Triangle, called to one of those meetings?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He would attend some meetings and sometimes he would not be able to attend when he was in Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: At these meetings were there any suggestion, proposals made as to how to deal with this problem of IFP members being attacked whenever they go to Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It did happen that Mr Dlamini was informed that we as IFP members recommended that the Chief Minister Buthelezi to be informed of our problem in the Vaal Triangle.

CHAIRPERSON: That the suggestion that the matter ought to be reported - were there any suggestions to how to deal with the problem at hand?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, sir.  There were no suggestions.

CHAIRPERSON: Were perhaps people warned that in view of the dangerous situation which prevails in Boipatong, people should not leave the hostel and go there?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes they were told but the unfortunate part is that some of these people had fled from the township and had family residing in the township and sometimes they would go to check on their families and be attacked in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it perhaps occur to the residents of Kwamadala Hostel that the attack might well be taken into the hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was obvious, sir, that the residents of Kwamadala Hostel could be attacked because the community of the Vaal Triangle had already stated that they did not want the IFP in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, had there been threats that they would come into the hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, there were rumours that these people may attack us at the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what decision, if any, was taken by the residents of Kwamadala to protect themselves against such a ..[inaudible] threat?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I can see, I think this was reported even to the management of ISCOR because the police patrolled around the Kwamadala area.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any discussion about the residents having to protect themselves by arming themselves?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can say that because of the situation of the bad situation at the time, as Amazulu, we have traditional weapons that we always keep with us, such that those who did not have them were supposed to acquire them, fetch them from home.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and I suppose that the - I mean arming oneself was not restricted to arming oneself with cultural weapons, you could arm yourself with firearms if you can obtain one?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then to your knowledge, this is now personal knowledge, do you know whether the attack on Boipatong was discussed at any stage prior to the 17th June 1992?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not have knowledge of that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Damara Tjonjo and Bhekinkosi Mkhize are the persons who took the decision that there has to be an attack on Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What role did Damara Tjonjo play within the hostel in the affairs of the IFP?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I know, Damara Tjonjo was one of the people who looked after the residents of Kwamadala Hostel like protecting them in the event of attack.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: From what has been read to me I discovered that Mr Mkhize was one of the Amabuto.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, forgetting for one moment about what has been read to you, I just want to talk about your own personal knowledge as to what his position was and his role was within the hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can say he was one of the Indunas at Kwamadala Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from stabbing and hitting with the knopkierrie, what else did you do?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I broke windows of the houses that we passed and if we saw a house on the road we would actually cut the tires open.

CHAIRPERSON: Now there is a mention of white headbands and somewhere reference is made to red headbands.  What was the colour of the headbands that you were wearing?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We were using white headbands.

CHAIRPERSON: You testified earlier on that - if I recall your evidence that you did not know what Amabuto is - is that what you said?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday you described how in the days of King Shaka, people would attack and then bring back the cattle as a sign of victory, remember that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: The people who went to attack, do you know what they were called?  Weren't they called Amabuto?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge of that, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not know what they were called?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.