Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-19

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, alright.  I may have jumped you, Mr Strydom, but do you have any questions to ask of this witness?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I prefer it if my learned friend does the cross-examination.  If there's something left out I'll ask questions, but at this stage I haven't got questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  It's about that time of the day.

MR LOWIES: I hear you, Chairman.
	Mrs Monokoane, did you give evidence in the criminal matter, either at Delmas or at Pretoria?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I have never given evidence at a criminal trial.  The person who did so was my husband.

MR LOWIES: And do I understand you correctly, his name was Moses, or am I wrong? - or is he Elias?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: Moses is my son.

MR LOWIES: What is the name of your husband.

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: My husband was George Monokoane.

MR LOWIES: George?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: That's correct.

MR LOWIES: Now I would just like to put to you that in the criminal trial there were a few Zulu accused, I mean their surnames were Zulu, do you know Nkambuzana Bernard Zulu?  He was accused number 1, for record purposes, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just get the question straight.  There were a few accused with the surname Zulu.

MR LOWIES: Z-U-L-U.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Okay, do you want to give those to us or do you want to - are you giving them to the witness?

MR LOWIES: I'm giving it to her.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR LOWIES: The first one was Nkambuzana Bernard Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just spell the name.

MR LOWIES: N-K-A-N-B-U-Z-A-N-A.  Sorry, let me spell it again: N-K-A-M-B-U-Z-A-N-A.  I'm sorry, Chairman, I may have confused you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...-M-B-U-Z-A-N-A?

MR LOWIES: That's right, and the second name is Bernard: B-E-R-N-A-R-D.  Then ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, is that the second name of Nkambuzana or is it ...

MR LOWIES: Ja, the second name of accused number 1, in the criminal trial.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you're going to ask her about these individuals, is it not better perhaps to go through them individually?  Ask her whether she knows this one.

MR LOWIES: Do you know this chap?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I do not know every a single one of them.

MR LOWIES: So I take it you can't also say whether he worked with your husband at Iscor.

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: Nkambuzana, I do not know that person.

MR LOWIES: Then accused number 10 was a chap by the name of Amos Velenkosini Zulu; V-E-L-E-N-K-O-S-I-N-I, one word.  Do you know this person?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I do not know them at all.  There isn't anything regarding Xhosa in my house.

MR LOWIES: Do you know accused number 47: Jotham Zulu: J-O-T-H-A-M?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I do not know the person.

MR LOWIES: There was a chap who was accused number 56: Sifiso Phinda Zulu.  I spell Sifiso: S-I-F-I-S-O, Phinda; P-H-I-N-D-A.  Do you know this person?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I have already stated that neither Zulu nor Xhosa is used in my house or people of such names are in my house.

INTERPRETER: I would take it that that is the answer from the witness.

MR LOWIES: Do you know ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What you're being asked is whether you know these individuals whose names are being read to you.  So your answer should be yes, I know them or I don't know them.  It is necessary for counsel to read all these names to you, do you understand that?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: Yes, I do.

MR SIBANYONI: And if I may add, Mr Chairperson - and these names are not purported to be names of the people in your house, but are the names of the people who were charged in connection with the Boipatong incident.

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: Well I do not know them.

MR LOWIES: Do you know a chap by the name of Vanana Zulu?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I know the person.

MR LOWIES: Have you met him personally?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: No, I have not talked to him.

MR LOWIES: Have you ever met him yourself?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I have been meeting him here when we assemble here at the hearings.

MR LOWIES: So you did not know him before '92?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I did know him, he stayed at Serela.

MR LOWIES: Did you meet him in '92, or before?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: No, I have not met him.

MR LOWIES: Do you know where he stayed in Serela?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I do not know.  He stayed at Bafokeng, at upper Bafokeng.

MR LOWIES: Did he stay there personally?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: I'm not sure about that.

CHAIRPERSON: What you know is that he had a house in Bafokeng, somewhere in Bafokeng Street.

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: That is where he, he married in Bafokeng.  His house was in Majola Street.

MR LOWIES: When did you know that his house - sorry, you say that his house was in Majola Street, when did you know this for the first time?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: What thing are you referring to?  May you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR LOWIES: According to you he had a house in Majola Street, when did you learn about this fact?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: He was a person who stayed at Serela, long ago.

MR LOWIES: Could you just repeat, what did your husband say - this is the last point I want to canvass with you, I won't be long with you.  What precisely did your husband say when he said the words about Zulu? - during the attack.

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: It was when he had attacked her and hitting him and that is when he said: "Zulu, is it you who is doing this to me when I have worked with you for so long?"

MR LOWIES: Isn't it possible that he referred to a man by virtue of his race, saying to him you're a Zulu person?  His ethnic group instead of his surname?

PHULANE HILDA MONOKOANE: That is where I do not know, Sir.

MR LOWIES: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES

CHAIRPERSON: Do we know where these individuals worked, if at all they worked?

MR LOWIES: They're not known to me at all.  I have no instructions regarding that.  You mean, Chairman, the accused persons that I've ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the individuals.

MR LOWIES: No, no, I - hang on, sorry Chairman, I apologise, we may have in the charge sheet.

CHAIRPERSON: I think your client wants to say something to you.

MR LOWIES: Chair, could we take the adjournment regarding this, I'd like to get instructions, there are a few names.  I see my client wants to draw my attention to ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's just see whether you can ...

MR LOWIES: May I have your permission to consult with Mr Khanyile?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR LOWIES: Thanks.

MR LAX: Mr Khanyile, just come up.
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MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chair.  My instructions are from Mr Khanyile, although he's not my client, he acts as my interpreter, that all these people that I've mentioned the names of, work at Iscor indeed.  He says that Mr Jotham Zulu, for instance, is here today and he is an Iscor worker.  He's sitting somewhere in the back.
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ADV SIGODI: Mr Lowies, sorry.  Do you have instructions as to when these people started working at Iscor?

MR LOWIES: No, but I get.  Well I'll try to get, but no, I have no instructions.

ADV SIGODI: And also if they were working at Iscor at the time of the attack.

MR LOWIES: No, I haven't got instructions regarding that, but I took it from the consultation that I had, they were working there then.

CHAIRPERSON: Well don't take it like that.

MR LOWIES: No, well he confirms with me that it's the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have to take proper instructions whether they were.

ADV SIGODI: And how long they had been working at Iscor.

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct).  I can take it no further.  I'm sorry.
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MR LOWIES: Thank you.  I have the following instructions, Chair.  Amos Velikasi(sic) Zulu was definitely working there at the time of the attack, he's now on pension.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, he's on pension.