Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from that incident there is no otherspecific occurrence which, to your knowledge, one of the applicantsor all of them were involved?

ANSWER: Not to my knowledge Chairperson except just toadd again that I think Captain Hechter was quite correct in sayingthat he visited, he and his colleagues visited me at the usualungodly hour very early on the morning on more than three occasionsand certainly at that time I must say I got an impression, rightlyor wrongly, that Captain Hechter in particular almost hated mewith a passion because of the way in which he behaved towardsme during those incidents.   But apart from that I'm not awareof any other incident in which they were specifically involved.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Mkhatshwa, FatherMkhatshwa I beg your pardon, you probably have seen the flurryof reaction amongst the applicants when you mentioned the interrogation.  I can put it to you that the applicants have informed me thatthey were not involved in the abduction and interrogation themselves.  They, however,
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know exactly who is responsible for it and they can give you moreinformation about that.   They have instructed me to say to youthat as far as, according to their knowledge, military intelligencewas involved in that incident and that it had to do with an actionyou instituted against the South African Defence Force.   Thatis as far as I can enlighten you in respect of that.   They havegiven me instructions to tell you that it wasn't them and thatthey weren't involved in that specific abduction and interrogation.  Father Mkhatshwa I must also say that when you spoke about yourreaction to the applicants when they stretched out their handsto you, I actually felt that every South African in this roomwho heard those words from you can seriously believe that thereis a chance for reconciliation in this country.   I want to sayto you specifically, and I say that on behalf of all five of theapplicants, that they have a genuine intention and wish to havereconciliation in this country.   They have the utmost respectfor you for what you have said now here in this room, and thatthey will be prepared to discuss with you possibilities raisedby you in respect of reparation and in respect of for instancevisiting the congregation.   I say that on behalf of all fiveof the applicants and I want to ask you one last question FatherMkhatshwa, in the light of what you said, do you accept that theapplicants are before this Committee, after you've heard the evidencefrom the start and after you've heard the opening statement ofthe applicants, do you accept that the applicants are before thisCommittee bona fide and honestly in a search for the truthand for reconciliation?

ANSWER: Chairperson, as I have already said that I haveno
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reason to doubt their bona fides, however, let me alsopoint out that as a member of the African National Congress weare also handling the question of amnesty, reconciliation in adefinite particular way, but it is certainly in a very positiveway.   It is a commitment to making sure that reconciliation,genuine reconciliation becomes a reality.  So my attitude is (1)openness and readiness to genuinely accept a brother, a sister,as fellow South Africans who says from now onwards I'm preparedto actively and genuinely begin to work for the building of anew nation, for a new country that is qualitatively differentfrom the old.  In fact, I'm prepared to be actively involved inthe ongoing struggle against any legacies of apartheid, becauseit was apartheid, it was the system that reduced fellow humanbeings into almost killer machines.  We are therefore saying ifreconciliation is to really mean anything at all, if it will havecontent, we must make sure that that system dies and is buriedpeacefully - maybe not so peacefully but that it is dead and buried.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Father Mkhatshwa.   I may just mentionthat part of my argument will be that the applicants, and thatwas part of the opening statement and the evidence, that the applicantswere drawn into this whole system by the way they were broughtup, by the way they were taught certain beliefs, by the way theywere subject to propaganda and by the way they were dealt withby the N G Kerk.   I am glad that you made that statement thatwill form part of my argument at the end of these hearings.  Thank you very much.

ANSWER: You're welcome.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS
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CHAIRPERSON: That brings to an end proceedings for todayMr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : That is so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: May we resume at 9:30 tomorrow morning?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Yes Mr Chairman that is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: I have a note which says that the people incharge of security in this building would like everybody to usethe President Street entrance to this building, it would makethings easier for all concerned.   Thank you, we will now adjournand resume at 9:30 tomorrow morning.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
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ON RESUMPTION ON 29.10.1996
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