Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: (affirmed states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Mncube, I'm showing to you page 12 of the bundle of documents which has an application form.  Is this your application form?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Yes, Sir, it is mine.

MR KOOPEDI: And at the end of that application which is at page 17 at the bottom, just above the word "Deponent", is that your signature?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: I'm showing you now page 19 of the bundle of documents.  This page 19 is a letter that goes up to page 22.  Was this letter done by you, written by you?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: And do you confirm the contents thereof?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: That's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now at the time in question, that is the time when these landmines were laid, were you a member of any political organisation?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I was a member of the African National Congress and its military wing, uMkhonto weSizwe.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you receive any military training?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I did receive military training in Angola and East Germany.

MR KOOPEDI: When did you join this ANC?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I joined the ANC since 1979.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you join is?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: While I was still inside the country, I joined the underground structures, then I left the country in 1980.

MR KOOPEDI: And went where?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I went to Swaziland, Mozambique and to Angola.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you've heard the evidence of your two co-applicants which is to the effect that you belonged to a unit of 12.  Would you want to confirm that?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Yes, I would like to confirm that.

MR KOOPEDI: Further evidence was given to the effect that upon infiltration, this group of twelve was split into two groups, the one group being commanded by Agrippa, the other group being commanded by Chilies.  Can you confirm any of this?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: That's true.

MR KOOPEDI: And the group to which you belonged, who commanded it?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: It was commanded by Chilies.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you briefly tell this Committee what your group did immediately upon entering South Africa, until you withdrew?  What did you do?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Well, our group had six landmines and they were all under the command of Chilies, as the person who was giving us instructions as to where we're going to lay the landmines, the area that he will point that the landmine must be laid, then we'll do so without questioning that.  The area where these mines were planted, as my other colleagues have just said, it was an area which was said is a military area, Soutpansberg military area and they said there's a lot of military activity there.

MR KOOPEDI: Now these six mines, were they all planted?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: All six mines were planted.

MR KOOPEDI: After planting the six mines, what did your group do?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Then we withdraw back to Zimbabwe.

MR KOOPEDI: At some stage you were arrested and in the Messina area, when was this?  When were you arrested?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Well I was arrested after the first mine incident, that was now in 1986 in December.

MR KOOPEDI: That would mean almost a year after the group of twelve ...(end of tape)  I take it you had also, coming again as you did for the first time, illegally into the country?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Ja.

MR KOOPEDI: Now were you alone when you came in at this stage?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: We were five when we came in for the second time and this time our Commander was Agrippa.  We were tasked to come in and lay landmines more or less in the same area, more or less.  I can't - because I'm not very familiar with the area but they were more or less in the same area, to lay landmines.

MR KOOPEDI: Now do you remember, can you recall the exact date, the date on which you came into the country?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: If I remember correctly, I think it was December 25, 1986 or it could be 24, somewhere there.

MR KOOPEDI: Now did you lay any landmines?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Well we didn't lay any landmines.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you carry out any operation?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: The main thing was to come in and lay the landmines and we were told that we need to go at least about 20 to 30 kilometres inside the country before we can start laying the landmines and Agrippa, as the person who knew the area, was the one who was going to lead us to these areas.  So unfortunately after we were inside the country, a farmer spotted us in one of the places where we were hiding and this farmer started shooting at us.  Well, I'll call him a farmer today, but then we felt that he's one of the Commandos who was shooting at us, but at Court it transpired that he was a farmer.
	Well, he was far from us when he started shooting, then we withdrew from that area where that shooting took place, then after an hour or two, then the military personnel with their helicopters were in the area now looking for us, that's when our shoot-out started between us and the military.  
	At the end of the day, three of my colleagues were killed in that shoot-out and I was captured in the evening, around six, though the first shoot-out started in the morning around five.  The other, I learned later when I appeared in Court, he was also killed.

MR KOOPEDI: So in fact four of your colleagues were killed?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Ja, were killed during the shoot-out.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Then after I was arrested by the military, by the soldiers, they handed me to the Special Branch, then the Special Branch, they started beating me, kicking me, then they used my shoelaces to tie my hands at my back and they put me in one of their vehicles with the corpses.
	They transported me to an area where they off-loaded me from the back of the bakkie.  They put me into another bakkie.  Well, they were speaking in Afrikaans most of the time.  Somewhere they stopped, they came at the back of the bakkie, then I was blindfolded all the time.  The other person there he said to the other one:  "No, let's take him through to some other place to kill him", then I knew that was going to happen, it's then when I started to loosen myself and I don't know what to say, fortunately or unfortunately, but I think it was fortunate for me that there was an AK47 at the back of a bakkie which was wrapped in a canvass.  Then I took out that AK47 and I fired shots to both people who were transporting me and I escaped.
	A couple of days later, because I could not get some water and I was hungry, I think it was nine days later when I came across a young girl.  I asked some water from that person, the she said:  "Okay, wait here", then she went inside the farm.  Then she didn't come with water.  Later I realised that actually the farmer himself phoned the police and I was picked up by the police and they took me to Messina police station, then at the end of the day I appeared in Court.

MR KOOPEDI: Other than this girl from whom you asked water, did you meet with any person?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: No.

MR KOOPEDI: During the time, that is after having escaped from the two police personnel that were with you?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I didn't meet anyone then.

MR KOOPEDI: And this girl, what did she look like?  Did she look like a military person, did she look like an ordinary person, what did she look like?