Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if that is not with reference to your client's version can't we put it this way, unless you have problems with it.
	Mr Mamasela, you would be careful not to do anything which would cause your colleagues to suspect your loyalty?

JOE MAMASELA: That is definitely so Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	At the time when these PEBCO 3 people were abducted from the airport and at the arrival at Post Chalmers, did you realise that they are going to be eliminated?

JOE MAMASELA: This is what I said.  From Pretoria when we left we knew that our mission was to go and help to eliminate political activists.  And in Port Elizabeth we were briefed about the people that we wanted, that at last the plan has been worked and these people are going to be - and we were told to go back to our base to change into our operational clothing, ...[indistinct] and all that.  So I knew by that time that these people were going to be killed.

MR LAMEY: So why then, if you realised that it's going to be inevitable that Mr Hashe was going to be killed, that you tried to revive him with water?

JOE MAMASELA: It was a natural compulsive instinct to me because they were still cross-examining him and he was there gargling, lying and being unconscious.  It was a natural reaction that took place, it happened instinctively.

MR LAMEY: Were you given an order to do that?

JOE MAMASELA: I was not given an order to do that.

MR LAMEY: You acted out of your own humanitarism?

JOE MAMASELA: Myself and Piet Mogoai when we jumped out, we acted on our own humanitarism, your own client.

MR LAMEY: And I also take it that you acted out of your own humanitarism when you suggested that when the food was brought in the following morning that the three people be given food.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: You didn't receive an order to do that?

JOE MAMASELA: No, it was a natural instinct, they were fellow humans.  I did not see just black people, I saw human beings like myself who stayed the whole night without food like some of us and when I was given food I knew how they felt because I know the pains of hunger.

MR LAMEY: Well, you know that they're going to be killed and you know that, why did you care?

JOE MAMASELA: I'm human and I care for other human beings.  I set myself first, in the first place to liberate these people that I was forced to kill, by your own people, so it was a human compassion more than anything else.

MR LAMEY: Well Mr Mamasela, if we now assume, and what you've stated, that everyone knew that these people were going to be killed and you were informed of that prior, in other words that your superior at the Port Elizabeth security branch and Niewoudt and all of them  knew that you knew that they're going to be killed, was it not a very dangerous risk that you took by showing humanitarian compassion towards the PEBCO 3 people by offering water to revive Mr Hashe and offering to take food to them?

JOE MAMASELA: I will not answer that one in a way that will satisfy your curious mind but let me put it this way, I'll try to be - you feed your chickens and you kill them, you feed your cows and you still kill them so feeding a human being, what is the difference feeding a human being and an animal?  What is the difference?  	You don't leave cows to go hungry for years because ultimately you are going to kill them.

MR LAMEY: Well, I want to put it to you Mr Mogoai ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: I'm Mr Mamasela, I'm not Mr Mogoai.

MR LAMEY: Ag Mr Mamasela, excuse me, that you didn't know that these people were going to be killed because Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole state that they didn't know that and we heard evidence by the other applicants from Port Elizabeth also that they didn't know and that there was deliberately a false perception created by them that the purpose of their abduction to Post Chalmers would be merely interrogation.
	And they want to put it to you that you knew nothing more and because you knew nothing more and you thought that it was merely interrogation, that is why you felt free to try and revive Mr Hashe with water so that he can further be interrogated.
	And that is also why you offered to give them food in order to get some co-operation from these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with him Mr Mamasela or do you not agree with him?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I don't agree at all with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, thank you.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, you went down with a contingent of Askaris not so, under the command of Captain Roelf Venter at the time, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: That is correct but we didn't use the same vehicle, he used his - the whites used their own vehicles, the blacks always used kombis.

MR LAMEY: Yes.  And who normally drove the kombi?

JOE MAMASELA: Your client Koole, Warrant Officer Koole.

MR LAMEY: And Mr Beeslaar was also there?

JOE MAMASELA: Mr Beeslaar left with - when we left Pretoria with that contingent, Mr Beeslaar left with Venter.

MR LAMEY: Were there any other white security policemen from Vlakplaas going ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: I said I could understand only Joe Coetzer(?), I could recall only the three, Venter, Beeslaar and Coetzer.

MR LAMEY: Are you sure about Joe Coetzer?

JOE MAMASELA: I'm not sure about him but I said I recall he was one of the entourage, that is why he does not fear too much on the PEBCO three and the killings because he was not there.

MR LAMEY: Was he in Port Elizabeth?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, he was in Port Elizabeth.

MR LAMEY: Are you sure?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, he was in Port Elizabeth with us but operating, taking charge of other Askaris.  While Venter and Beeslaar were taking in charge of this PEBCO 3 operation, he was supervising other Askaris to go around ...[indistinct]

MR LAMEY: Do you I understand your evidence correctly previously given, that you were told to dress in dark clothes, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: That is correct, at the Port Elizabeth police station.  That was on the 8th of May 1985, I do understand that.

MR LAMEY: Am I correct, is my memory correct from your evidence that you also to wear balaclavas?

JOE MAMASELA: No, we were told to take night clothing, operational clothing and in my way I know that if we are going to operate at night we must use balaclavas and hand gloves and whatever.
	But we did not come with our balaclavas, so if they wanted us to go the township they were going to provide us with their balaclavas because we cannot go like this in the townships without risking being identified.

MR LAMEY: Now at the stage when you left from Glen Connor to Port Elizabeth for the mission, where were the other Askaris?  Did they stay behind at Glen Connor?

JOE MAMASELA: No, they - you know how we used to operate, let me explain a little bit.  Every morning as Askaris we will be dispatched in groups to go and operate at various stations, others will be patrolling the bus stops, others will be patrolling the railway stations, others, just maybe two or three would be patrolling drinking areas where possible insurgents can be found.
	That was the norm and they will come very late at the evening, at about half past seven, 8 o'clock to come and sleep.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'm going to interrupt you Mr Mamasela.  I know you are trying to explain but to the question, they were not there or were they there or where were they?  Just tell him where the other Askaris were.

JOE MAMASELA: They were not there, I don't know where they were, they were working.

MR LAMEY: When you returned to Glen Connor, were you and Mogoai and Koole alone with Venter and Beeslaar?

JOE MAMASELA: I don't understand the question.  When we returned where, from where?

MR LAMEY: Before you went to Port Elizabeth on the 1st day of the mission.

JOE MAMASELA: From the Port Elizabeth police station when we were told to go back to our bases to where ...[intervention]

MR LAMEY: Ja, did you go back to Glen Connor?