Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: Even after a week, the police officers were not yet found, when you left for Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: When the police officers were not found?

MR RAMAWELE: I mean the killers of the police officers were not found when you left for Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Not as far as I know, we did not succeed in arresting the murderers.

MR RAMAWELE: Approximately how many police officers from Vlakplaas went to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It was our whole group, I am not sure how many we were, it could have been 40 or 50, it could have been 60.

MR RAMAWELE: And approximately how many left, you know the first group that went to Pretoria, to Vlakplaas, approximately how many of them left for Vlakplaas when you remained behind?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, as I have said some of them were re-deployed in the direction of Piet Retief, if I can remember correctly, and I think it was about 40 people.  I am speculating, it could be more or less.

MR RAMAWELE: You see, I get the impression that you know, immediately after the shooting of these activists, all of a sudden, an interest was lost by you Security Police officers to be in Chesterville or in Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, it is not so.  If I can remember correctly, at that stage it was a question that after the shooting, it will be futile to attempt again to enter these areas because of the chaotic situation there, it was not governable, there would have been problems if you went there again, and it was necessary to leave.

MR RAMAWELE: Are you saying that your men were also not so trained that they could handle that kind of situation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, they were trained yes, but we were a Counter-Insurgency Unit, we were not an unrest unit, we only used sharp ammunition and explosives and we were not an unrest unit.

MR RAMAWELE: You see, that is precisely the point because I am surprised why, if Chesterville was a flashpoint, etc, etc, why were the Unrest Unit not called to Chesterville to come and quell the disturbances there, why particularly Vlakplaas had to come to Chesterville, why Vlakplaas, why not the Unrest Unit?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: We did not go to Durban to control unrest, the people who went to Chesterville did not attempt to control unrest.

MR RAMAWELE: So the whole plus minus 50 people were just looking for the killers of two police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: As far as I know there were three policemen killed, the murderers could have been a larger group, it could have been 10, it could have been a whole cell.   The search you had to keep as broad as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ramawele, please whose answering that cellphone, is it outside?  It is really very disturbing you know, and distractive, sorry Mr Ramawele.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.   You know after this shooting, this shooting incident, you know they reported to you and some members later on went back to Pretoria and you are not longer, you think the situation is no longer okay for your members to be around the area so you decided the tracing of the killers was no longer a priority at that stage?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman, the people who were deployed in the direction of Swaziland against the eastern border, was used to determine whether MK members were infiltrating and I kept some members with me also.

MR RAMAWELE: Did you visit the scene of the shooting?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: According to you, did the police also arrive at the scene?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I can vaguely remember that when I arrived there, there were already people on the scene.  Policemen were on the scene and I think the area was sealed off by conscripts, if I can remember correctly.

MR RAMAWELE: How many people according to you, died in this incident?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: As I can remember, four people were killed and three were wounded.  I have this number at the back of my head, I think that three people were wounded.

MR RAMAWELE: And how many police officers were there, according to you were there from Vlakplaas who were also there in the shooting, how many police officers were there?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I think there were six or eight.

MR RAMAWELE: None of the six police officers were injured or killed?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: These police officers say that they were acting in self-defence?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: This is how I understood it, yes.

MR RAMAWELE: Now doesn't that leave an impression really that these police officers, they must have been ready when they got to this particular place, their guns must have been ready.  How come all of them survived, all of them are not injured?

MR HUGO: Sorry Mr Chairman, I have to object here, my learned friend expects Mr de Kock to speculate now, it is common cause that he was not there on the scene, I do think it is an unfair question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes perhaps Mr Ramawele wants to put to Mr de Kock what would be an argument on the probabilities and perhaps wants to elicit Mr de Kock's response.  Mr de Kock, let me put it to you to make it short, the point that Mr Nofomela's legal representative is making is that it is strange or improbable that if there was an attack on the police, that six of them were not injured and many of the other people were killed and wounded.  You can comment on that.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I believe that my members knew that they were in a dangerous area, they were looking for MK members, they knew there were terrorists and they were ready.   I had personally been in fights when we were 24 and the opposition 80, we walked into the ambush and none of us were injured and eight or nine of the enemy were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ramawele, thank you.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.   You say that Willie Nortje reported to you about the shooting?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, it was he and van Dyk, I know Vermeulen was there also.

MR RAMAWELE: But did van Dyk also report to you about the incident?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Well, Willie Nortje explained to me and van Dyk was with him.  Van Dyk was not on the scene, so  he could not report back to me, but as far as I know Nortje and van Dyk approached me.

MR RAMAWELE: Were you not with van Dyk already at the time when Nortje came to you to report?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, the Officers' quarters where we were had a type of unique situation where, because you were an officer, you had to be private.  There was a shower which was used by people in two rooms, every person had his own sleeping quarters and shared a shower.

MR RAMAWELE: What I want to know is, at that specific moment when Mr Nortje reported to you, were you not already with Mr van Dyk at that time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Van Dyk was there yes, van Dyk was not with me in my room.  They woke me up and then I saw van Dyk.

MR RAMAWELE: Was Jeff Bosigo one of the people, he was obviously in Durban also, Jeff Bosigo?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: Almond Nofomela was also in Durban, is that so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: Do you know whether Nofomela and Bosigo were involved in this particular shooting or were involved, were there at the shooting or had something to do with this shooting?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I received no such report Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: What you are saying is you are now saying that the black police officers went into Chesterville, you are satisfied that you know, they were given instructions to go there by Nortje?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.