Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

MR GOOSEN: That deployment of those two teams to the two command areas, did that remain current right the way through to 1988 or were they pulled back for deployment on other Special Forces operations?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is Mr Chairman, that is a very difficult question to answer because I don't know.  I can't remember, but I can assume that if we didn't use them in the command areas, then they would have been pulled back for other operations, but that is difficult for me, that is.

MR GOOSEN: And the idea of deploying them into the command areas was for deployment in accordance with the plan that you devised, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct, that is correct.

MR GOOSEN: So one can assume then that in all probability they were in fact pulled back from those command areas from more or less the time that this new procedure was introduced because as you have indicated, no further operations were carried out along those lines.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Could well have, could well have been.

MR GOOSEN: I see.  Were Special Forces operatives deployed at all in support of the SAP in the period 1987/1988 anywhere in the country?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: It could have been that some of the other commands wanted support and then we will give them support, but then we will give the support to the command.  The Army command, not to the Police and they were restricted to do conventional type of operations, no covert type operations.  It could be of the other regiments from 1 reconnaissance regiment or 5 or whatever.

MR GOOSEN: I just want to get it really clear because it is - what you state is fairly significant and I think has an impact on other submissions that we have heard.
 Are you saying that Special Forces operatives or Special Forces members were in fact not deployed for unconventional operations inside the country in support of the South African Police whether attached to a command or not attached to a command, in the period 1987/1988?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Not for covert actions and then they are under the operational control of the commands, of the Army commands.

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairman, please just excuse me for a second.  General Joubert, you were promoted towards the end of 1988 to the position Deputy Chief of Staff Intelligence, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: I was posted, not promoted.

MR GOOSEN: Posted?  Is it not a promotion?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: No.

MR GOOSEN: Who took over command of Special Forces from when you left?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Major General Eddie Webb.

MR GOOSEN: Major General Eddie Webb?  And in the new position that you then occupied, did you ever become aware of the possibility that or the fact that Special Forces had been deployed in support of the SAP inside the country for clandestine or covert operations, this is post 1988 under the command of Lieutenant Colonel Eddie Webb?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Not that I know of.

MR GOOSEN: Not?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: I don't know.

MR LAX: Just while you are thinking Mr Goosen, if I could throw a question in.  You seem to imply, now I might have been mistaken or it is implicit in one of your previous answers about Special Forces stopping assistance, that it might have been other Units in the SADF that did in fact support the SAP during that time and do you know whether that in fact happened and here I am not talking about conventional support, roadblocks, house searches, all that sort of thing.
 Let's be clear, we are in the context of unconventional and clandestine operations.  So I am not going to keep repeating that as Mr Goosen has each time, let's understand that is the context.  Are you aware of any other actions?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I want to put it very clearly.  I also mentioned it in my submission.  Special Forces did not only consist of covert elements, Special Forces also consisted of reconnaissance regiment, which had an air capacity.  There were 4 reconnaissance was an air capacity and others with land capacity, but they were all Special Forces.  And then we had the members of the CCB, who operated in a more clandestine, covert fashion. But these other regiments could internally support these other commands if they had been requested, but then they had to wear uniforms and so on.  So that assistance was still being rendered to the commands.  These were unconventional operations, so this is how it worked.

MR LAX: We are talking here within a context of these revolutionary measures, covert measures.  So let's not confuse conventional and unconventional, I am fully aware what unconventional warfare is about.
 We are talking in the context of what we have been talking about all day, and that you've been questioned about.  Let's not confuse that and get into a semantical exercise.  Let's be clear, did other Forces, other components of the SADF in the absence of your Special Forces, assist the South African Police in operations that entailed clandestine revolutionary and irregularly methods?  We spoke about that, we contextualised those methods already. I am not going to explain what I mean by that again.  Yes or no?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: As far as I know up to a certain stage, yes.

MR LAX: What stage was that?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That was as I've said after the procedures were finished, had been in place, that type of operation stopped.

MR LAX: So are you saying that no such operation by any element of the SADF in support of the South African Police took place?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: To my knowledge, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Goosen?

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.  General Joubert, were there ever instances in which Special Forces operatives under your command and I include CCB operatives, because they fell under your general command whilst you were OC of Special Forces, ever instances in which those operatives engaged in operations inside the country which were unconventional and which involved the elimination of individuals but which were not in as it were, support of the South African Police?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Inside?

MR GOOSEN: Yes.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, as far as my knowledge goes, during my time, we did no clandestine covert operations internally without the support and without cooperation of the Police, and if these things happened, I did not know about them.

MR GOOSEN: So I take it from what you've said that no clandestine covert operations were carried out by CCB operatives in the period from more or less the beginning of 1987 through to 1988, when you ceased being Officer Commanding Special Forces?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: I don't understand the question.

MR GOOSEN: Let me try to make it clear.  You said that Special Forces operatives and that include the CCB operatives, would only have been deployed clandestinely or covertly using unconventional purposes inside the country, if they were so deployed in support of the South African Police.  That is what you've said?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: Fine.  And we know from what you've now said, no operations in support of the Police which were clandestine or covert unconventional, involving Special Forces operatives occurred after this procedure was introduced more or less the beginning of 1987 until after you left.  You don't know about what happened after you left until the end of 1988?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you reply, I think, I don't know where Adv Goosen is getting to, but I think in all fairness to you before you reply, I must indicate that we have heard members of the CCB in a Section 29 inquiry, in which they testified under oath, and I would in fairness to you say you must think very carefully because you are also under oath before you reply.  As I say, Adv Goosen was not part of that Section 29 procedure, and I am not sure he is basing his questions on what transpired.  I was.