Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR MAMOME: Yes I went out.

MR VISSER: Did you trip Oupa to be able to arrest him?

MR MAMOME: No Sir, I just went out of the car and then I went to him I grabbed him then I put him in the car.

MR VISSER: Did you see any of the others who were pursuing him at that stage?

MR MAMOME: They came individually to the Kombi.

MR VISSER: Thank you no further questions
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Taking a quick glance over the evidence and the things which we have put to you in respect of which you are allegedly implicated,  particularly by Mr Motsamai.  It seems to me that of all the people Mr Motsamai implicates, he implicates you the most in terms of the sheer number of incidents.
	I have seen no less than 15, 16 such incidents and I wonder why Mr Motsamai would do this taking into account that you are in good terms.

MR MAMOME: The time when I received the TRC subpoena I did not believe that its Motsamai because there is nowhere where we had a conflict.  I regarded him as my younger brother, I trusted him.  I am surprised Chairperson even to-day I'm so surprised how he implicates me in this way and with so many incidents.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And also in terms of the incidents of petrol bombing he implicates you the most in terms of the sheer number of incidents, it puzzles you.

MR MAMOME: That is worse Chairperson, it surprises me more.

CHAIRPERSON: My brother has referred you to the many incidents that you have been involved in by Motsamai and you were served with notice of them weren't you?

MR MAMOME: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that all of these incidents were matters that would have been - were matters that certainly would have come to the notice of the police and probably have been investigated by them.

MR MAMOME: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any effort to check the time and date of each of these incidents just to make sure that it was not a time when you were away?

MR MAMOME: That's what I did.  I even went to the police station to look for dockets because all these incidents happened in the townships.  I went to the police stations to find out as whether they have opened dockets for these incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: And had they?

MR MAMOME: I went on my own but I did not find them.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't find dockets for any of them?

MR MAMOME: I searched for dockets for all these incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Tsoametsi is here Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You still under oath Sir,

MR TSOAMETSI: (sworn states)

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Tsoametsi, yesterday you were referred to the application of Mr Ngo and there the names of the people he enumerated as having participated in the abduction of or kidnap of Mr Mohapi was read out to you, do you remember that?

MR TSOAMETSI: I remember Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Now I want to put to you what he in fact said in his evidence whilst he was testifying in chief.   At page 30 A2 Mr Ngo said when asked
"Were you alone when you kidnapped Mr Mohapi"?
		"No, it was Tsoametsi, Mamome, Mtyhala and Cronje".  
I suppose you don't have any comment to ...[intervention]

MR TSOAMETSI: I heard him when he said that .

ADV MEMANI: And again it was put to you that Mr Tsoametsi or rather Mr Ngo referred to Hilton Police station.  Now I want to read to you what Mr Ngo said in chief at page 32 of A2.  He said
"I mean the police were arresting for public violence, that is Coetzee and them.  When he was supposed to be released we got that information then they said that we should come after we have knocked off, that we should come and kidnap him.  So they phoned the Hilton Police station where he was detained, either Hilton Police station or Bayswater police station".

MR TSOAMETSI: I did not know of that, Ngo is lying

ADV MEMANI: And that he was detained at Bayswater police station coincides with where Mr Mohapi said he was detained.

MR TSOAMETSI: Sir, let me indicate to you Mohapi's arrest is unknown to me.   I told you that I was working within the white section what was done on the other side I do not know.

ADV MEMANI: Now you obviously will deny the rest of his evidence don't you, insofar as it implicates you?

MR TSOAMETSI: Sir, everything that is said by Ngo is a lie, he knows where I was working.

ADV MEMANI: Have you ever interrogated a white person?

MR TSOAMETSI: Yes, outside.

ADV MEMANI: Outside what?

MR TSOAMETSI: The first one was at Koffiefontein where I was working, it was in the South Free State  and at Gariepdam.  Even if even when the white person was there and I did not understand I would chip in and say: "Repeat yourself, I want to understand".

ADV MEMANI: And I'm told that you've never interviewed, interrogated any white person at Fountain.

MR TSOAMETSI: Ngo would not know because he was not in that section, as much as I did not know what they did.

ADV MEMANI: But it is implicit in your answer when you say:  yes, that you did interview people outside, that you did not interview people at Fountains, white people at fountains.

MR TSOAMETSI: Sir, if it was necessary, because I work with a white person, if the white person is interrogating and I do not understand something and I really want to understand better I would ask him because the next day we're going to meet with a white person and say he said this and he said that.

ADV MEMANI: I don't understand your last answer, can you repeat it please?

MR TSOAMETSI: When I am sitting with the white person this white person is interrogating another white person, he will carry on with the interrogation and this white person will provide answers.  Now if there is something in his answers that I do not understand I will stop and say: "I do not understand that point", then it will be explained until I understand it.

ADV MEMANI: Now should I accept it now that you yourself have never taken a lead role in an interrogating a white person?

MR TSOAMETSI: Take it that way Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Now to which organisation did the white person interrogated belong?

MR TSOAMETSI: When we were at Koffiefontein this white man was working at the mines and there was  violence, he was mishandling black people.  Now it seemed as if violence was going to begin.

ADV MEMANI: In what fashion did he mishandle black people?

MR TSOAMETSI: He was not talking to them properly he did not listen to their grieviances, work related grievances.

ADV MEMANI: Now I asked you, did he belong to any political organisation?

MR TSOAMETSI: I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: Did you - the other white person you told us about two white persons, did he belong to any political organisation?

MR TSOAMETSI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: : ...[inaudible] security police at that stage at Koffiefontein and Gariepdam?

MR TSOAMETSI: Those areas were falling under Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: What did your job entail exactly in this white section?

MR TSOAMETSI: It was the security duty.  When we have gone out I was supposed to be in a position to help where my white colleagues would not understand some of the things that were mentioned by the black people, now I had to explain the situation.

ADV MEMANI: Now what did the white section do?

MR TSOAMETSI: The white section was was keeping an eye on areas where violence might erupt where conflicts existed because of race.  Those were the things we started to - we wanted to stop before they can start.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it so Mr, what is your name again? Mr Ramosoeu, - okay, I'm told you are Tsoametsi, 	isn't it so that the white section was the section that dealt with white liberals so to speak, people who belonged to the ANC, the Communist Party, the Trade Unions that were aligned to those organisations, people who associated themselves with the black aligned movement and so on?

MR TSOAMETSI: I do not know Sir.