Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

MAMASELA: They were infiltrated by me for about two weeks 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 78
and in the ultimate analysis De Kock gave me some booby traps, you know what I mean, handgrenades and 
one SPM limpet mine, the big one to give to them and this stuff we handed to them and they were told to 
choose whatever target they want (indistinct), and they blew themselves up.

<UNKNOWN>: And what happened to the limpet mine you gave to one of the student leaders?

MAMASELA: It was terrible, you know, because once he started pulling off the safety-pin it went off.  
There was a black smoke billowing in the air with a little tongue of red smoke, a red flash, flash-light and 
one could see it was blood.

COMMENTARY: After the operation, Mamasela reported back to his Commander.

MAMASELA: He was ecstatic about it, he was ecstatic about it, he was extremely happy, he jumped like 
a beheaded chicken.

COMMENTARY: Eugene de Kock became Commander at Vlakplaas in 1985, the time of growing Black 
resistance against apartheid.

MAMASELA: The first impression that he created was that he was a brutal man, he was an aggressive 
man.

MAMASELA: (Indistinct), you know he wanted to make us dogs of war.

COMMENTARY: His job was to combat terrorism and terrorism was then defiant.  His job was to combat 
the onslaught against South Africa.  The onslaught at that time, first of all was in Rhodesia then it was later 
in South-West Africa Namibia and when the onslaught became hot behind our own alliance inside South 
Africa, he was used to combat that 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 79
onslaught here.
	Well anyone could see that this is a cookie you don't play with, you see.  He was quiet, well-
spoken, but there was something that ...  
	They told you don't play with this guy.

<UNKNOWN>: Do you think the Generals knew what he was doing?

ANSWER: It depends which 
Generals, but I have no doubt there were certain Generals that knew what he was doing, because they 
weren't that dumb as not to know what he was doing.  
	At least once a month the top structure of security headquarters, the Generals, would come for a 
"potjiekos" or a "braai" and then Colonel De Kock used to foresee us with finance to go buy the meat and 
the booze etc, and it started about twelve o'clock on a Friday afternoon and end whatever.

<UNKNOWN>: Did the Generals know what was going on at Vlakplaas?

ANSWER: There was a full time party there, three times a week all the Generals were there, celebrating 
and as soon as the shit hit the fan, they disappeared and no one came, nobody.
	The Generals did visit the farm frequently and I am sure that they had report-backs from Eugene, 
actions that were taken, but to say that they knew in detail, I wouldn't agree with that.
	They drew the parameters, they drew the counter- 
evolutionary strategy, they gave us the budgets, they gave us the men, they gave us the means, the 
equipment and they monitored our effectiveness and whether we were doing our job or not and they were 
happy, they gave us the highest declarations that this Country can give and yes, many of 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 80
them turned round at the end of the day and said goodness, gracious, we didn't know that these band of 
merry men of ours were doing such nasty things.  If they were doing these nasty things, they must have 
been doing it on their own initiative.

<UNKNOWN>: Because of the police, the top police ...(indistinct) was the family.
	It is one of the dichotomies of man that in fact perhaps because you are a loving father and 
because you love your people, and because you love your Country, you prefer to kill for it, (indistinct).  
You may also have to be prepared to die for it. .... (tape ends)

MAMASELA: ?)	How I don't know but you must suffer, and God is going to punish me, that's what I'm 
sure about.
	... beweerde apartheidmisdade.  Die Kommissie het gese as mnr Botha weier om te antwoord op 
die beweerde ...

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me for a minute please.  Mr Chairman, 
I think it is nearly at the end of what I want to show, I just want to make hundred percent sure that I've 
covered everything.  This is the last part of the video that deals with Colonel de Kock, which was not 
important for purposes of this hearing.

SCREENING OF VIDEO CONTINUES: ...."Spanbou" is usually four days, it is nice the Government expenses who doesn't do it, everyone 
does it.  One big party.  ....(Indistinct) get intoxicated, wrestle and stuff like that.

COMMENTARY: In this instance the men were joined by General Krappies Engelbrecht.  He was the 
unit's so-called Sweeper.  De Kock will have to cover up.  He was implicated in Court 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 81
in some of the charges against De Kock.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I show that excerpt because I am also going to call Brigadier 
Cronje very shortly on that.  He already gave evidence that he distances himself from Colonel De Kock and 
from Captain Dirk Coetzee and he will testify about things like that and if that happened during his period 
at Vlakplaas.

COMMENTARY: ....bravery, outstanding service and combatting terrorism.  In December 1985 he 
received the Police Cross for Bravery for this raid into Lesotho.  De Kock....
 -  the former police Commissioner, General Johan van der Merwe, to this day, the General denies any 
knowledge of the existence of Police Death Squads.
	Eugene de Kock was charged with only one murder.  
Fast forward

COMMENTARY: ... Hit Squad members as ascaris, according to General Coetzee former terrorists who 
had joined the Security Police and assisted in the identification of infiltrating ANC and PAC members.  
Praising their work, General Coetzee denied the Ascaris had ever been ordered to assassinate, adding and 
we quote,
		"Just the thought of such a squad would defeat all the Police stands for".

<UNKNOWN>: What did you tell you colleagues in the National Party, at that time?

ANSWER: I told them what the system wanted them to believe and that Dirk Coetzee was obviously an 
agent of International Communism who was attempting to destabilise the psychological status of our 
counter-revolutionary efforts.  
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 81

<UNKNOWN>: Why didn't you tell them the truth?

ANSWER: (Laughs) That would have been an interesting occurrence if I had.

COMMENTARY: In meetings with policemen around the country Minster of Law and Order, Adriaan 
Vlok, said Coetzee was part of the dirty tricks campaign against the Police.

VLOK: "Die polisie wat hulle lewens opoffer vir die land, wat hulle tyd, alles gee vir Suid-Afrika en sy 
mense en al dank wat ons kry van 'n groot klomp mense, is dat ons word beswadder en 
beskuldig van die lelikste dinge wat denkbaar is."

ANSWER: I can expect some naive people on the (indistinct) maybe can believe that story, but 
people who were in the management structures of the State, didn't believe that story, they knew who was 
killing the ANC.

COMMENTARY: Coetzee went into hiding in Zambia.....
(Fast forward)

<UNKNOWN>: Did you lie to the Harms Commission?

MAMASELA: Oh, I lied, I lied.  We all lied from Cape to Cairo.  It was a shambles.

ANSWER: It was totally the nonsense that was fed to them, I mean the whole Harms Commission was a 
farce, it was fed manure and it was kept in the dark and it grew, the type of mushrooms that it was 
supposed to grow.

MAMASELA: No, we were told to lie, it was instructions from the Generals that we should lie.  There 
was no way that we could compromise the police, no when we told - in all sections that we should lie.

ANSWER: I think one of the important things that we in this country are going to have to come to 
terms with is the total lie that we all lived with.  I find this now sometimes PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/