Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

FERDINAND BARNARD: ...team where I was the Captain for three years.  We were on the recruitment team on the same sort committee and I knew him very well and then without making contact Luitingh, or anybody else, I decided to assist McQuillan.  I then drove to him and I discussed it with Col Viktor and Col Viktor told me that this person is walking around doing strange things, he received information and McQuillan, the two reports about Figerido and also notes that he made and then the report that I received from the sealed envelope, he had copies of this and he wanted to know who I was working for, who was the head of this organisation.  I tried not to tell him all of it, but I got away with what I could and I got McQuillan to go free and the situation that was created, I reported to Lafras Luitingh.  They were not very happy about it but the damage was done.
	Then I was told to lie low somewhat but it wasn't really a very big problem, it wasn't that I was discharged, or that I was put out, all that was said to me was that certain decisions had been taken and that in future things would be handled differently and that it would function abroad possibly and it was decided that during the next co-ordination session, I would receive my salary every three months.

MR COETZEE: And then from that point onwards you still received your salary as usual, you still enjoyed the benefits and maintained your vehicle, nothing was taken from you.

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, nothing was taken from me.

MR COETZEE: And after this incident, you were paid three months in advance regarding your salary.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, that was approximately at the time of the David Webster incident.  I recall that the first time that I was addressed regarding David Webster was approximately at the same time David Webster was shot, on the 1st of May and I had the meeting with him and Joe Verster.  I was briefed at that stage and at first I received a salary every two months and then in July I received a salary which would serve for July, August and September and the amount that I received comprised my salary along with the benefits, which was R4 000 to R4 200 per month.

MR COETZEE: You referred to the David Webster incident, could you explain this incident to us from the very beginning?  Where did you hear of Dr Webster?  What was your task regarding Dr Webster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, during my period of tenure with the CCB, I read the newspapers regularly.  For example, I focused on the Vrye Weekblad, the Weekly Mail, the New Nation and that sort of publication and that is how one would be informed regarding the prominent persons, which activists were more prominent and so forth.  For the first time I read about Dr Webster in those publications.  He was on the Support Committee and he figured quite prominently but what happened was that during one of these co-ordination sessions, Mr Lafras Luitingh made me come into pondok, but not to the place where our apartment was.  I wasn't aware of this building, it was known to me as the Penthouse Suite.  I had to go to another number.  This was in the Ponti building and Joe Verster arrived there.  I was addressed regarding two persons, one was Jay Naidoo, the other was Dr Webster.
	Mr Verster made it clear to me and before I lose my line of thought, I must just say that not one of them was aware that I knew who they were.  Joe Verster and Lafras Luitingh didn't know that I knew who their real identities were, they thought that I only knew their false names.

MR COETZEE: What were their false names at that point?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I knew Lafras as Louis and I knew Joe Verster as Jack van Staden, but Theuns Kruger had already informed me of their actual identity except they didn't know that I knew.
	Then Mr Verster addressed me about the two targets and he emphasised it quite strongly that David or Dr David Webster was an absolute priority target.  Not a target for recruitment, a target for elimination.  Mr Verster at this point already had a file in his possession, the file was given to me.  In the file was an A4 size black and white photograph of Dr Webster.  I think he had a beard at that point.  He was clearly recognisable.  It was a recent photograph in comparison to the photos that appeared of him after the shooting in the media.  There were two addresses in the file, one was Dunbar Street, the other one was Eleanor Street, I cannot recall the numbers and there were approximately three to four registration numbers of vehicles and a few newspaper clippings.
	I formed the impression that someone else was already working on Dr Webster before he came to me.  Verster said that I was the guru of Johannesburg because it was commonly known that in the suburbs of Johannesburg, I moved about day and night and that the area was very familiar to me.  Among others, I was warned by Lafras Luitingh and Joe Verster that I should not make obvious inquiries or draw unnecessary attention to myself, because Dr Webster would fall.  This man was going to fall, that is what they said.

MR COETZEE: You've used the phrase "would fall".  What did you understand by this phrase at that point?

FERDINAND BARNARD: In all the time that I worked with these intelligence organisations, the word fall over, or fall, all those things would mean only one thing and that would be that the person would be killed, he would be eliminated.  All the other things that you have read in the media indicating that to eliminate someone was to put him or her out of action or take them out of the system is not true, it meant one thing only and that was to kill.

MR COETZEE: You were indicated to that Dr Webster had to fall.  What was your specific task there?  What did they say to you in terms of:  "Mr Barnard, do this and this and that"?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I had to establish precisely what Mr Webster's routine and movements were.  I had to determine at which one of the addresses he was residing because there was uncertainty about this and I began working on this.
The same task was given to me regarding Jay Naidoo, although it was not as strongly conveyed to me.  With Dr Webster I was told that he was an absolute priority and I became involved with that.

MR COETZEE: Could you explain how you went about your work?  What did you do?

FERDINAND BARNARD: First I took a drive and established the physical lay out of the addresses which were made known to me.  I did not see any vehicles there, not upon my first visit to these locations.  I went there on an irregular basis at irregular times, in the morning, in the afternoon, at night.  If I came back from a night club I would drive past there first.  If I went with my girlfriend to Bedford View for breakfast, then we would drive past there, that is how I became aware of registration numbers and the like.  Eventually I visually saw Dr Webster on two occasions when he was disembarking from his bakkie at the address at Eleanor street.

MR COETZEE: Did you report back to Lafras Luitingh or to Joe Verster regarding your observations at the house?

FERDINAND BARNARD: My initial report was to Lafras Luitingh.  I gave him all the information that I had gathered.  It was a very difficult area to have an observation in because it was a one way street, there was not traffic on both sides.  It was also a cul de sac.  One couldn't hang around in the area for too long without drawing unnecessary attention.

CHAIRPERSON: A one way cul de sac, so once you drive in  you stay there, you can't get out of it.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, it was actually a t-junction, where you can go right or left.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, a t-junction, so it couldn't have been a cul de sac, otherwise ...

FERDINAND BARNARD: Perhaps I have put it incorrectly.  I reported it to him and I was told that I would have to make a presentation in the Ponti building.  I attended this and it was also attended by Joe Verster.