Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: That's correct, I'll do it.  I was therefore willing to fight for the establishment of a Volkstaat and to fight so that the ANC/SACP Alliance will be prevented from coming into power.  That is in short, the political objectives that I personally had.  My motivation for the deeds, if I read the question correctly, that was my connection with political objectives, my political objective was that of the AWB movement, it is then also the political party to which I belonged to at that stage and the objectives that I personally had is the same as the AWB's political objectives and that is on the basis of that that I can answer that question in the application.

MR BRACHER: What were those "doelstellings" from the AWB that you identified with?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: The objectives of the AWB with which I identified myself is the striving for a Volkstaat and as well as the struggle against communism.

MR BRACHER: Now did that include targeting innocent people?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairperson, at that stage it was decided by the Generals in Staff of the AWB - you will see this I think in that little book that you've got there - they talk about Phase 3 and I think in Annexure B it's also contained that a guerilla warfare would be on the order of the day at certain times.

MR BRACHER: Where do you get that from as the policy of the AWB?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Can we just look in Annexure B?

MR BRACHER: No, but you didn't read Annexure B, you've never seen till today so forget about Annexure B, forget about that book because you didn't use that either.  Who told you or where did you read that you had to ...[intervention]

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: The ideology of guerilla warfare, I learned this to be - I learned this as a student in the South African Defence Force.  For two years I was in the South African Defence Force and I followed a course there in the infantry school in Oudtshoorn and there they elaborated quite extensively with regards to guerilla warfare, that's where I learned about it.

MR BRACHER: When you joined the AWB did you intend in the course of your struggle to target innocent people?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: If it went as far as that, yes Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Would you have to get an instruction to do that or would you just do it on your own?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I would have had to receive an instruction and I also received an instruction.

MR BRACHER: Now these two bombings of which you were responsible and the pipe bombings - let's leave the pipe bombings for a minute - start with Germiston - who gave you instructions to target innocent people?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: The instruction came from Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: Just tell me about that, don't go further, when did he give you that instruction?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: He gave me that instruction at the game farm and he told me that I must go with Jan de Wet and I must join him for a mission.  At that stage I did not know what the mission entailed.

MR BRACHER: No, Mr Du Plessis, that is not an instruction to kill innocent people, that is an instruction to go on a mission.  Who told you to target innocent people in those specific instructions not vague stuff.  Whoever told you to do that in the AWB?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Before the elections, the leader of the AWB, he said on several occasions that the day when the ANC takes over in this country then there would be war.  That was his words.  It was quite evident to all of us that the ANC would take power.

MR BRACHER: Your leader didn't say when it becomes clear they're going to take over go and kill innocent people, he never said that?  Mr Du Plessis, I'm going to ask you once more then I'm going to submit to the Commission that you're not telling the truth, I'm only going to ask you once more.  Who in the AWB ever gave you instructions to target innocent people?  I'm not asking this question again so think carefully who gave you that instruction ever.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: In those specific words no, nobody gave me that instruction pertinently, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: You say in the beginning of your application three times, your enemy was the ANC/SACP Alliance and Communists.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BRACHER: That was why you joined the AWB and that was why you fought the war?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That as well as the establishment of the Boere Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I don't follow.  The reason for the Volkstaat was to get away from communism and all those other things that you do not agree with, is that not true?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If a Boerestaat was founded then you wouldn't have minded whether there was communism around or not?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: But there wasn't a Boerestaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but is it untrue, if you had a Boerestaat then Communism would not have mattered?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: Then we would have had a place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, but the fact that the ANC would govern the rest of South Africa, would not have mattered because now you've got your Volkstaat.

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So how did it take place or how did it happen that the motivation for you was to fight communism because if you were successful and you had a Volkstaat, it wouldn't have been necessary?  That's according to your evidence, is that not so?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: If I can put it this way, if the coup, when I'm saying this, it was planned by certain people in this country, if that coup was successful, then there wouldn't have been an election and then it would not have been necessary to immediately obtain a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis, if you really do not understand me well, then say so.  Listen carefully.  The two reasons why you joined the AWB are not parallel because according to your evidence the reason why you became member of the AWB was because you did not like ANC because they were together with the communists?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The second reason is because of that you wanted to help in the establishment of a Boere Volkstaat, is that correct?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you succeeded in founding this Volkstaat, then it would not have mattered if the ANC won the election or not, is that not true?  Then the Volkstaat would have existed and communism would also have existed?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If you were successful in your onslaught against communism and the reason for a Volkstaat would have fallen away because then wouldn't it have been communism for your purposes?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That's correct.  If communism and the ideologies within this country - if we could effectively have fought it then it wouldn't have been necessary for a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say all the communists are thrown out of the country, it no longer exists, then the reason for you, for your purposes, the reason for the existence of a Volkstaat are no longer there?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They are two different reasons, they're apart from each other, I do not understand it.  It's one or the other, not both of them.  Please explain it to me, how could you have fought for both of these reasons?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I do not understand the question very well but I will try to answer it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what do you not understand before you try to answer it?

JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS: I do not understand how you can say if there wasn't communism that the purpose of a Volkstaat would no longer be necessary because the communism and their part in the ANC is a fact.