Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

MR TSOMELA: Chairperson as I have indicated, during unrest the Station Commissioner informed the District Commissioner and as a result of that people are placed on the ground and if we are talking about that there were riots as I'm saying there were, they could place - policemen are place enough so that they can curb riots.  And the commanders in charge as I've said at the beginning do co-operate and work together and  that is the responsibility of the District Commissioner because they are within his area of jurisdiction.

ADV MEMANI: Look, I'm still saying to you and I'm repeating the question and you are not answering the question.

MR TSOMELA: I'm sorry Sir.

ADV MEMANI: I'm told that policemen from Bloemfontein could not have gone to Botshabelo to arrest people at Botshabelo without speaking to the local Station Commander.

MR TSOMELA: Chief, I might say in the beginning they will come to me but knowing that they are in Botshabelo, the South African Police Act give them the authority to arrest whoever the traitor is.

ADV MEMANI: So at least you concede they will come to you.

MR TSOMELA: They will come to me Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Now, I am also told that you in fact as a Station Commander at Botshabelo, actually lodged complaints with the security branch or should I say rather, you reported to Security branch that you were having problems with unrest in your area.

MR TSOMELA: First of all what I should say Chairperson, is that the security branch are the actual people who gave us information and they are on the ground, they are people who come in contact with such information plannings and everything etc.

ADV MEMANI: Would you not as a station commander have reported to security branch that you're having problems with unrest in your area.

MR TSOMELA: Ja, I will, I will if I encounter problems I will report to my District Commissioner, but as I'm saying the security branch are the fist people and they are still, people who come in contact with the planning of such incidents as such.

ADV MEMANI: So you did report to security branch that you having problems with unrest in your area?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that?  I thought he said I would report to my District Commissioner.

MR TSOMELA: Correct, Chairperson.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, and so ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't mean the security branch.  He did'nt say he had reported to the security branch, did he?  Mr Memani, you must listen to the witnesses answers and not then say he said something he has not.  Did you say you would report to the security branch?

MR TSOMELA: No Sir, to my District Commissioner.

ADV MEMANI: Now, I was also told that as a Station Commander, you are the person who was to authorise operations by staff who fall under your police station.

MR TSOMELA: At my station Sir, I make up Commanders who are assigned to do each and every particular aspect and as a result of that we had what we called a Crime Prevention Unit, of which I usually put a person in charge of that.
	So I mean I've got a lot of different components like investigators etc., etc., motor car accident operators etc.  So as a result of that I've got commanders who might be operating at that level.

ADV MEMANI: But not at the level of conducting a large scale raid.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please take your hand off your mouth Mr Memani so that we can hear you?

ADV MEMANI: But not at the level of conducting a large scale raid?

MR TSOMELA: Well I don't know what you mean by a large scale raid because as I'm saying, our normal investigative duties are being done through that process that I have already explained.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevance of this?  It does not tie in with Mr Ngo's application, does it?

ADV MEMANI: It does Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngo's application says that
"That in 1986, members of the sub-unit of the security branch stationed at Botshabelo"
and he names the four of them.
"reported to Colonel Coetzee at Fountain Street"
He goes on to say what they reported. 
"and having received the report, the two commanding officers, Colonel Coetzee and Colonel Stevenson, ordered all the members of security branch to report on duty at 3 o'clock in the morning in Fountain Building.  On our arrival, Colonel Stevenson and Colonel Coetzee briefed the members that they were going to arrest comrades at Botshabelo and they would be assisted by members of the riot unit and the Special Constables at Botshabelo".
  That is Ngo's version.

ADV MEMANI: He proceeds later and says that Tsomela was present and Tsomela says he knows nothing about this and what I'm establishing is that he must have known about this thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Ngo's version is that there was a complaint made to the security branch and they said let's go and raid.  And the complaint was made by, and he specifically says
"The sub-unit of the security branch stationed at Botshabelo Police Station"
and names the three people, the unit commander, the assistant commander.

ADV MEMANI: What I'm dealing with Mr Chairman is his denial that he knows about this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: He's denied it.  You made you point.  You go on and on and on and you are not putting your client's version.

ADV MEMANI: Well, Mr Chairman, I'm not a policeman and all the things that I'm putting come from my plans or...

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I'm looking at his application before us to what he says happened.

ADV MEMANI: But with due respect, Chairperson, if someone denies something, I am entitled to cross-examine him by saying that circumstances were such that he should have known about this incident.  Now he's saying he doesn't know anything about it and I'm saying you were the station commander.

CHAIRPERSON: The sound has gone.
PROBLEMS WITH AUDIO EQUIPMENT

ADV MEMANI: And I'm saying that you are the Station
Commander, you should have known about these things. 
	May I proceed Chairperson?   Do you still want me to address you or do you want me to ask questions now?

CHAIRPERSON: I want to know the purpose of the questions.  Are you putting the version that your client put in the application or are you putting a different version?

ADV MEMANI: I'm not putting what is contained in the application, I'm putting questions to deal with the denial.  I'm attempting to show that the denial cannot be true because he was the Station Commander and in all likelihood he would have known about this thing.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may I please be allowed to say one thing.  The evidence of this witness has never been that he denied that the incident took place.  His evidence is that he cannot identify in his mind, in his remembrance, that particular incident, that's his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: But the point that Mr Mamome is making is that it's not just that he would have heard of it but that they would have had to ask his permission before they carried out the operation, so it's not a question of saying: "Look it may of happened, I was not there I don't know".
	Mr Memani's point which he has made, he has put to the witness is: "If outsiders come into your area they should notify you and get your permission therefore you should remember.  That's you point isn't it, Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: That's correct Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And it's been suggested that if the occurrence book shows that 45 people were detained at 4 o'clock in the morning and were in the cells the next morning, it's a little surprising that the station commander doesn't remember it?

UNKNOWN: No the only point was that I understood Mr
Memani to say that he's denying that the incident took place and I was just putting that straight.

ADV MEMANI: Now I'm told that the people who were arrested were then taken not to Fountains but to Grootvlei, do you recall that?