Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: : Thank you Arch.
 I first want to put a statement made by Mrs Madikizela Mandela to us at her second Section 29 Inquiry, page 103.
 The Mandela Crisis Committee -
"Did they visit your house in connection with the abduction or removal of the boys, or shall we say the abduction of the boys from Methodist Manse?"
Mrs Madikizela Mandela responded - 
"I indicated that some Church leaders came to the house, a Crisis Committee has never had communication with us. I heard the idea of the so-called Crisis Committee from the Media and from these documents that were flying about, but some members of . . . (indistinct) from the Churches came to see me.
 I asked them - 
"Did the senior police ever ask and were given access to any of the boys who were taken from the Manse?"
Mrs Madikizela Mandela 
"No. I had no such discussion with them. The people who did come to my house came to express their deepest sympathy about what was going on in the Media and what was all over in the papers. At that stage the boys were already taken away to the Church."
 I went on -
"Did no Church leaders or any other persons come and see you about the boys whilst they were on your premises"?
Mrs Madikizela Mandela - "No. Not to my recollection, I have just stated that if I remember well, a person like Rev. Frank Chikane would have come home during these days but not to secure the release of the boys." 
And I asked again - 
"Did he raise the issue of the boys?"
Se went on. 
"They came home during those days and the actual discussions which took place were generally about what was happening at the time."
She went on - 
"Not to have the boys released because they had already left to my recollection."
 So, I won't go much further, but she has denied that the Mandela Crisis Committee has come to see her about the release of the boys. Could I have a response to that please?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Do we have a privilege to gain access to the records of those proceedings?

MR VALLY: You do.

FRANK CHIKANE: Chairperson, I wish to gain access to those proceedings but our submission stands as it stands and that the record of what we were doing at that particular moment. I must say that there is a reference to Frank Chikane there, I don't remember which paragraph you were looking at, I remember
"a person like Rev. Frank Chikane could have come over in those days but not to secure the release of the boys."
 Now obviously during those days I played quite and I had too many hats to put on and one was as a friend to the family, one was as a Pastor and one was on as Community Leader, so there was quite a complex combination of issues, and there are issues that I dealt with at a Pastoral level which I think belongs here and issues that are related to these particular boys which we had to deal with and so I would rest my case that the submissions . . . (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: : I am sorry, I want to understand, I mean I hear you Frank about privilege, what you are saying in response is you as a Committee and maybe you individually did go and see Mrs Madikizela Mandela about the release of these youths.

FRANK CHIKANE: : Chairperson, our submission indicates that the said visit was related to community concerns, the . . . (indistinct) community, I am looking for the paragraph, that the . . . (indistinct) community where Stompie came from has raised these questions and it is paragraph 24, "Because of concerns from the community of the whereabouts of these young people, the committee was drawn in to help resolve this matter. Amongst the people who spoke to members of the committee about this problem were leaders in the Methodist Church and comrades from Thomahole, Parys and on the 13th January 1989, the committee visited Mrs Mandela's residence to assess the situation and determine the whereabouts.
 Now it is very possible that there were too many . . . actions to remember everything that happened in those days, we have go to go through files and documents and etc. even this morning we are still working out what could have happened here and there but the situation is as it stands and Annexure C also deals with that matter. On Page 1, Annexure C, and then there is also Annexure D . . . (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: : Let's go on.

MR VALLY: At all times when you went to go and see Mrs Madikizela-Mandela who was making decisions in that household regarding the issues raised about these youngsters, about the persons who were taken away, who was making the decision?

FRANK CHIKANE: I don't think I will be able to answer that question, I think the only thing we can say is that during that visit that we made, the first visit I made, and after that I left to go on this trip. We had discussions with the family first and then we were, and then these boys were allowed to come and sit with us in the absence of the family to talk to us and that is where they made the submissions that they were not assaulted, they were not forcefully removed and that their injuries were as a result from trees. That is what was said at the time so I wouldn't be able to say who was deciding what to do in that regard.

MR VALLY: : We will come back to this in a short while.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I just wanted to find out whether we should understand from Frank Chikane, that it is not possible to say when we went there and they held a discussion, he could not formally, in their own minds, who was in authority there with whom they could have a discussion about the issues that they were coming to discuss there, do I understand that was the position?

FRANK CHIKANE: You go into somebody's house it wasn't a public place and the person who was in charge there, it's Mrs Mandela and that is why we had to talk to her.

MR NTSEBEZA: : You have given me a reply, Mr Chikane, I think that is what the question I wanted.

MR VALLY: : Thank you Mr Ntsebeza.

FRANK CHIKANE: As a family there is a leader in the family and you talk to the leader of the family before you do anything in the house, you know you couldn't go in there and do whatever you like.

MR VALLY: : Before I go into specifics, I just want to ask you a general question. What was the attitude of Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela to you people when you raised various queries with her, just her general attitude her demeanour towards you?