Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-13

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: Similar to Mrs Guzana's.  Dr Trollop said he had died of gunshot wounds and head injuries.  However, all this happened while I was still in Transkei and it was clear I was not going to be able to come to the Ciskei.
 We were scared that something would happen to me.  Somebody phoned me from the Ciskei, a family member, saying that I should remain in the Transkei and not come in the Ciskei.  All this information we got in bits and pieces and we didn't know where it all comes from.
 Therefore, I did not come over to the Ciskei even though my husband was in danger.  It is sad that we incriminated my husband, because as a family we could not come here to the Ciskei and support him.
 We decided to cremate his body and have a memorial service in Transkei.  I was able to see the corps in Cambridge.

ADV SANDI: Were you able to perform a second post-mortem?

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: No.

ADV SANDI: How old are your children?

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: I have children who are quite grown up.  The eldest is not married and the other was still at home.  The my last born son who was at UCT, passed away.

ADV SANDI: As we are going to conclude this evidence, how did your husband's death affect your family?  As he was killed like a dog, surely this must have affected you gravely?

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: My husband was well and alive.  He never took any medication, no diabetes, no hypertension, he was well and alive, a healthy man.
 His death was not through his illness.  His life was cut short through murder.

ADV SANDI: These three men that Mrs Guzana mentioned, according to your statement you said that your husband told you that these men were there.

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: Yes, whilst we were still back in Durban on holiday, I think my husband would phone them because he had told me about them.  I did not know them and I did not want to know them, because I had a fear within me.

ADV SANDI: What was he saying about these men?

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: He said that these men also wanted to come to Ciskei and everything would have been prepared for them for the coup.
 My husband did not want to divulge all.  As a policeman he did not come home and divulge everything that happened at work.  Even if I had asked him or not, even if I was there with him, he was not going to divulge everything to me, because it is a norm in the Xhoza culture.

ADV SANDI: Do you have requests before the Commission? ... (tape ends)

NOMAFAKATHI SEBE: My husband was alive, even if my children are old, grown up.  I am not working.  If my husband was still alive, somebody would be supporting me.
 I am supporting myself and it is difficult, but God lives.  And God supports me.  I lost everything.  I had to sell most of the things that my husband had left for me, because I have to buy food, I have to go to the Doctor when I am ill, I have to buy clothing.  I have to fix up my environment, all these things cost money.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mrs Guzana, thank you Mrs Sebe.  I am going to hand over to the Chairperson.  If there is anything you've left out, perhaps the Chairperson would be asking you questions.

CHAIRPERSON: June Crichton?

JUNE CRICHTON: Mrs Guzana, there are a few things here that under normal circumstances I am sure you would have gone to an Attorney with.  You were unfairly dismissed, there were statements made by a journalist that were inaccurate, the SABC made statements that were from three years previously, or showed pictures from three years previously.
 So my question to you is, did you ever approach an Attorney to deal with these matters?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: I did not because when my husband was detained, it meant we are not going to get his salary and when I was discharged, my salary was given half the salary for that month and I stayed a year without my pensions, because the Act according to which I had been discharged, did not exist in the Department of Education.
 And they did not know how to calculate the pensions and the lawyer that I had then, did not advise me to that effect and even after the death of my husband, the lawyer asked me to find an Advocate and I couldn't finance that.  I went to the Council of Churches, that is where I was advised that even if I had money, I couldn't employ an Advocate on my own.  So I think I was ill-advised.

JUNE CRICHTON: And then just one other question.  The Judge that dealt with that case, what was his name?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: It was Judge Claassens.

JUNE CRICHTON: Judge Claassens?   Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Guzana, you say that you would like to make it clear that your deceased husband never planned a coup but was lured into a trap so that he could be killed.
 Who do you think in your own mind, was responsible for the entire operation, the entire plan?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: It was  Mlandeli Kula.  Because he even used me to get to my husband.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he working for the Ciskei Defence Force?  What exactly was his job?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: He was a soldier, but he said that he had been dismissed.

CHAIRPERSON: Just refresh my memory again, what was the outcome of the inquest?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: The outcome was that there was no coup planned by the deceased, the coup was planned from inside and it was simply a plan to lure them into a trap, simply to be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the finding of the inquest?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But the Judge failed to find anybody responsible for that?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Referring back to the SABC, we are going to the hearing here, the media hearing, we will be evaluating valuations, where the media partook in this matters?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Because of the bad relationship that had been there between the Sebe's and the Matanzima's when the military government took over, it was suggested that as a token of friendship, the two forces should play some matches and so my husband as a rugby player, he went there and he spoke on behalf of the Commander of the Ciskei Defence Force.
 The context of the speech was the friendship between the two countries.  Then in 1990 when Howza made his confession, that footage of 1987 was used to substantiate Howza's argument that Holomisa and Guzana were friends, and it was out of context in 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: And this event in 1987 happened before the coup of Ciskei took place?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: The event in 1987 when your husband went over to play rugby in Transkei and had this conversation with Holomisa, that was before the coup in Ciskei had taken place?

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: In 1990?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it was still ...

NOMZI VIVIE GUZANA: Yes.  The coup was on the 4th of March, 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Are there questions?  We would like to thank you for having come before the Commission to give us this very sad testimony.
 And as your son was saying that this thing should not be publicised, but should be private, we appreciate that you have come here.  The deaths of your husbands is one of the mysteries that we hope the truth will be revealed.
 We believe that this country to be able to have reconciliation, must know the truth.  There should be no discrepancies in the history of this country.
 I remember as if yesterday, the day your husbands were murdered.  It marked a turning point.  People realised the seriousness of the status quo in Ciskei at the time.  You have raised a number of questions, and as a Commission we should get answers.
 You have raised a number of atrocities as Mrs Crichton picked out the atrocities - unfair dismissal and things like that.  These things we should go into as a Commission.  
 Please be patient, we will keep coming back to you for more information.  As a Commission, we would like to reveal the truth so that one day the truth is fully revealed.  Thank you very much, you may step down.