Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-08

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: "I obtained the information during the
investigation as member of the security branch and also base on information form certain sources that could be trusted and also our physical sources.
		According to this Mr Jack was president of the Port Elizabeth Youth Congress.  It's PEYCO and also the co-ordinator of the consumer boycott that was executed in Port Elizabeth at that stage.  
		PEYCO is a youth organisation that's affiliated to the UDF, the United Democratic Front.  PEYCO was also directly responsible for the mobilisation and politicisation of the youth and implementing of the alternative structures in the Black townships.  
		The so-called street and area committees as been mentioned already, was an institution of the ANC.  There was a so-called M Plan of the ANC and it was part of the strategy or the aim to in fact overthrow the whole State constitution through violence.  Mkhuseli Jack played an active role to mobilise the Black youth, the so-called Amabuthu and politicise them by means of intimidation of the community to consumer boycotts and stay-away actions.
		Now these consumer boycotts and the stay-away actions was also enforced by threats and then also by applying the necklace method by means of the so-called people's courts.  He was also responsible for the creation of underground structures, the revolutionary zones by the Amabuthu and also by means of trained MK cadres who had initiated the people's war."
Paragraph five -
"On 12 August 1985, he was taken to my office on my request.  That was on the 7th floor of Louis Le Grange Police Station and there I also refer to my transfer warrant.
		During this interview I was alone.  I interviewed him with regard to his liability and also being active with the intimidation during the consumer boycott and also the contact he had with MK members.
		Then also the constitution of the constituting revolutionary bases in Soweto;  that is the Black township in Port Elizabeth.  It's not Soweto in Johannesburg.
		The manning of these revolutionary bases by the Amabuthu referred to the so-called Soviet base.  The Soviet base was used by Amabuthu as their headquarters in Soweto and it was also used to keep military trained MK members there.
		His involvement in the unrest and violence in Port Elizabeth and the Black townships and also addressing a meeting at the Soviet base and also the presence of MK members, were aspects that were taken up with him during this interview.
		After I confronted him with these facts and questions, he was very hard-headed and at that stage I took a black plastic sjambok and then also gave him several lashes over his body and legs.
		He then settled down and I could see that he had a lot of pain.  I stopped with the questioning there and he was taken back to St Albans Prison, where he got medical attention and Dr Wendy Orr treated him there.
		Because he refused to give any information or affidavits at that stage, it was necessary for me to use methods to try and influence him to provide me with information to enable me to control the situation as mentioned.
		I was of the opinion that it would be in national interest and especially in the interest of stability and peace in the Eastern Cape;  that would be to end this consumer boycott as speedily as possible.
		At a later stage, Jack was prepared to negotiate with us to in fact make an end to this consumer boycott, if we would release him and all the leader elements.
		This was done and the consumer boycott was ended.  As far as my knowledge goes, Mr Jack has already made a civil claim against the State and it was settled.  It was case number 28886 in the local Supreme Court and Mr Jack was then released on 6 November 1985."
	Then I continue to page 26, 10(a), point number 1.
"The aim of the security branch as part of the power base of the National Party Government, was maintenance of internal security by means of combating terrorism and the protection of the constitutional order.
		At that stage it was a National Party Government and structures against communistic expansionism as identified in the so-called liberation organisations, namely ANC/SACP alliance, PAC and then also the armed wings, Umkhonto weSizwe, APLA who wanted to subvert the Government by means of violence and take it over.
		These aims were the political objectives of the security branch and to achieve this, it can be described as follows:
		The protection and maintenance of the National Party Government and the legal institutions established by it."
Paragraph 1.2.2 -
"The protection of integrity of the former Government to ensure that the community would not lose its confidence in the governing party, the National Party at that stage, as a result of the acts of terror and propaganda by the communistic orientated organisations, Black Power organisations. South Africa and its Western capitalistic community to protect it against a violent take-over by communistic orientated so-called liberation movements whose aim was to make the country ungovernable.
		By means of the aims mentioned, to ensure the maintenance of a normal Western democratic situation as I knew it, to ensure that.  
		In this matter it was necessary to use a measure of violence to force Mr Jack to give me the information that would enable me ..."
I beg your pardon -
"... to control the unrest situation and boycotts, intimidation and also stay-away actions and then also to restore law and order in the Black townships.
		It was necessary to restore law and order in order to ensure the maintenance of the constitutional order."
Then (b) -
"This attack was necessary to restore the political aim and that is to restore law and order in the constitutional order."
Then 11(a):  
"Yes, this act was executed on behalf of the security branch to obtain information in national interest so that law and order could be restored in the Black townships.  The emergency regulations of that stage also gave a large measure of protection and even in some cases it gave indemnity against prosecution and civil claims."

MR VAN DER MERWE: Yes, that will conclude his evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka, are there questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR NYOKA: Yes, Your Honour.  Good morning, Mr Nieuwoudt.  	You said that you were the unit commander of the information component of Black affairs.  What exactly was the role of this information unit within the security branch establishment?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Your Honour, the role of that was to obtain information.   The activities of the so-called organisations;  to monitor that and also to report on that.

MR NYOKA: What was its modus operandi or a way of operating in achieving its goals of obtaining such information?  How did you operate?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: By means of non-physical sources as well as physical sources and agents and also contact persons within the organisation; to place people in these organisations and then to obtain the information.

MR NYOKA: Did this modus operandi include assaults on detainees to obtain such information or attempt to obtain such information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Your Honour.

MR NYOKA: Are you sure about that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MR NYOKA: So when were assaults made?  When were they made?  Under what circumstances?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: When the person is in detention.

MR NYOKA: For what reason is a person being assaulted if information is not required from him or her?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If he doesn't want to talk and when there is a situation where he is then prosecuted according to the justice system.

MR NYOKA: So you do agree that assaults were made if someone does not talk for purposes of getting information from that person, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is true.