Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-24

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: Yes, there were attempts to enlist the assistance of the police with reference to many things because the situation in which we found ourselves was such that we would not even ask them to arrest a drug dealer.  What we were appealing for is that a person who has murdered should be arrested.  We wanted to the community to be protected.  That was our main request.  	We were also looking at people who were involved in many other crimes, people who just got away with it.  Maybe we made a mistake because we did not indicate to the police that they should also address the drug problem.  People were still stealing people's property.  We would chase them, or should I say we were not after that, we were concerned about safety.  Our primary concern was that we should not die and our children should be safe.  That was paramount to our list of priorities.  Nobody came forth to try and address these other problems.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: I think it is also important for me to state that at the time we were now convinced that the police were failing in their duty to protect the community.  Besides that, they had a hand which led us to suspect that they did not want peace.
	If you look at these two points, I would like to say that there are reports that we have made available, trying to give more details.  These appear in annexures for your convenience as Commissioners.  In April 1992, we had the 32 Battalion deployed in the area.  The 32 Battalion is known to be Koevoet, people who do not know what a human being is.  The difficulty that we had is explained in Annexure 1.
	There is also Annexure 14 which includes among other things, our relationship as a community with the ISU, the Internal Stability Unit.  In that annexure we are outlining the details with reference to the relationship.  Briefly, I can say that their intention was to shoot and kill.  We lost many people.
	If we look at Annexure 2 as well, if you look at the operations of the police ...(end of tape) ... and these are a clear reflection of how the police moved about their duties.
	Lastly, if you look at the role of the police and the soldiers who were to take care of our protection -I'm not sure whether I have this Annexure 15, this also adds something to the role that was played by the police informers.  We also have details in that annexure.  These people here are people who made sworn statements.  If you have any need you can follow this up and you can get the necessary information because I don't want to make it difficult myself by not divulging the truth.  All I am saying here is that we tried to bring together all important things which are included in this report which was sent to the Commission.	
	We tried several times to put our heads together with the police.  I myself personally tried to bring other people in to protect the community and introduced them to the police, to say that is a commander for a particular section, should there be any problem, confer with him so that we can address the question of safety.  We used to call such meetings with the police.  We really introduced these commanders from different sections to the police so that we should not have any conflict.  We were hoping and trusting that a commander of the section and the police are all in one, are all working towards one aim, the protection of the community.  This I think will assist in drawing a clearer picture to the Commission as to how the community was attacked.  That is why I used this illustration to make it clearer.
	I would also like to explain that in all the hardships, what it is that we as a community did to address these problems and that is why I am saying that if there is no question I will continue.  I'm trying to explain here what it is that we did as a community.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, I believe we are now in possession of the required map.  I'm not sure where exactly we should hang it so that it could be easily accessible to everyone.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in fact I see it's 10H30.  I'm going to adjourn for a short while and then you can take the opportunity just to fix yourself up and then we will continue.  We will adjourn.  Advocate Steenkamp, will you indicate when you are ready to proceed?  We are adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt so rudely.  Let me just apologise for the long delay.  We managed to get the latest map of the specific area and the specific areas will be indicated, but I'm sure Mr Nkosi will point the specific areas out.  This is the latest map I could get my hands on.  I do apologise for the long adjournment, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Advocate Steenkamp.  I'm quite sure this is going to make a big difference for us.  At least we're not acquainted at all, in fact in my case, with the area.  At least some of my colleagues know in which part of the world it is.
	Mr Nkosi, I just remind you you are still under oath.

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, do you want to carry on?

MR SIBEKO: (Continued)  I would request Mr Nkosi to carry on, Mr Chairman.

DUMA MOSES NKOSI: I don't know if it will help for me to show you the map slightly before I proceed.
MR NKOSI EXPLAINS BY USING MAP
	...(no English translation) the number is 351, according to the old numbers, but the new numbers I made 11022 and you are able to see my house when you take a look a look at the snap.  This now is Extension 2.  The name is Dan Klume and this the area called Unit F.  Next to it is Extension 5 and we call it Sylvester Ngwangwa and this one is Polla Park, the one I am pointing at.  It has quite developed since, but here on the side around Khumalo Street, this is Khumalo Street, that's where hostel four and five were.
	Now this area is Extension 1.  The old location ends here where I point.  The old location developed to this side, all the way up and the triangle I referred to earlier on is in relation to this area down here.  When you cross the street here or the main road here, you are going to Khatlehong.  This is Kathrada section, Beirut and Joe Modise, as I am pointing.  And this is Mlangeni.  And now this is Lusaka-B and Lusaka-A as well.  Now this is Slovo, Thambo Section because if I point at the small box you will realise this is Slovo section and this is Thambo section and then Mandela is further down.  Up here is Sesulu.
	Now the hostels I referred to or I'm talking about, that is one, two and three, as I said earlier on these are Madala, Kutuza and Mshayazafe.  There was nothing here all along.  Now this is a new development.  The location has grown to this side and the other side as well.  This is the map in its completion.
	Now as I will call these places by their names, I'm referring to this.  When I talk about structures, it will be in such a way that when I refer to commander and section, those will be coming from these areas.  In Extension 2 there were commanders as well, here.  I was overseeing the whole area as a person who was working for the branch.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't know if you want to mark that map as an exhibit, I'm not sure what the position there is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps it should be Exhibit 1.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkosi, the names that are depicted on the map, Exhibit 1  that there are now, are those the present names which are given to those particular sections of the area?