Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Mr Chairman on the farm with me was an askari, Ernest Ramathlala, a Lesotho citizen who was responsible for the first attack attempt on the life of Chris Hani.   He together with David Tshikalanga, Almond Nofomela and Joe Mamasela and there might be others, approached me for a loan of R5 000 to go and buy diamonds in Lesotho for, from the relatives of Ernest Ramathlala who apparently had very good
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contacts on the mine and some of them working there.   I did then borrow R5 000 from my mother-in-law, Mrs Crause(?) and handed it to them.   It was, must have been towards the end October, beginning November 1981.   Almond, David Tshikalanga and I don't know who else proceeded with Almond Nofomela's private car to Lesotho and returned a day or what later, I'm not sure how long, with five little small diamonds the size of a matchstick, stained, cracked and a little bigger one like the nail of my small finger perhaps, a yellow one which I later learned is called "canary yellow".   To me as a layman I could see that they were cheated if one just thinks of your wife's, the size of that diamond on her ring, engagement ring, and I sent them back to go and give the man's diamonds back and bring my money back.   Joe Mamasela, Almond Nofomela and David Tshikalanga proceeded to Lesotho, whilst the group, the Vlakplaas group as a whole departed for Durban where we were summonsed to do surveillance work.   I must just mention that this was also at the time, it was in November and also at the time of the murder of Griffiths Mnenge.   Again some time later an evening shortly afterwards they returned, Joe Mamasela, Almond and I think David Tshikalanga was also present in a, if I remember correct, a grey-blue Datsun Laurel automatic, with Lesotho registered number plates.   They reported to me that they couldn't get the money back, they lured the dealer out of Lesotho, they then took him to a turn-off, gravel road just to the north of Lindley, the first one after you turn off to Lindley, coming from or in the direction of Johannesburg, a few kilometres down that road in a bluegum plantation, the diamond dealer was shot and killed.
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They took his car and apparently waved, whilst this was happening, David Tshikalanga apparently followed in the police bakkie of Almond Nofomela and they waved him on to continue on the road.   I immediately took the car to Sgt Schutter's house who was the Sergeant in charge of the farm, the sort of foreman who had to look after the farm whilst we were on operations, to his private house where I asked him to strip the car of all possible identification and keep it until further notice.   David Tshikalanga and Almond Nofomela then accompanied me in my official car to Lindley.  My concern was that the body might have been discovered in the meantime and I should get to the place as soon as possible.   Joe Mamasela was dropped on the farm if I remember correctly to continue his work with Jan Coetzee in West Rand.   As I say Almond escorted us to or showed us the way to this road just before Lindley, gravel road coming from Johannesburg now, turning off to the right and him and David Tshikalanga went into the bluegum bush.   A few minutes later they arrived dragging a corpse by its pants, at the feet, one at each of the feet, and we bundled him in the dark into a plastic bag that was used or that is used by mortuaries to transport bodies in.   I put him in the back of my official vehicle on my whole armoury that was inside and the three of us continued via Bethlehem, where I put in petrol and signed the petrol book, and on our way to Durban where we arrived the next morning.   I reported in brief to Brigadier Van Hooven and then with his permission, left to get rid of the body.   Almond and David Tshikalanga were left in Durban with the rest of the group whilst Koos Vermeulen, Paul Van Dyk and myself continued towards the Swaziland border to a ruin, the ruins of an old house,
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farmhouse, just to the south of the then so-called Houtkop border post.   We waited there whilst Paul Van Dyk took my car, with the body, Koos Vermeulen and myself whilst Paul Van Dyk continued with my vehicle to Piet Retief to an old Swaziland friend of ours that was working at a garage in Piet Retief, Fred Howells(?).   From him he collected tyres and brought it back to the farm or to this ruin where we were waiting.   A fire was built of tyres and wood and the body in the plastic bag put onto this fire and set alight.  I remember Koos Vermeulen cutting open the bag at a stage and taking out the ID document of Lesotho passport of the guy, of this person, but I have never had a look at it to identify the guy.   We stayed there through the night and burned the body to ashes and returned to Durban the next day.

<UNKNOWN>: The basic motive I assume behind the purchasing of the diamonds was to make a profit at the resale thereof?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman and if diamonds were to be obtained at this stage, myself would have been involved together with Koos Vermeulen, Paul Van Dyk and Sgt Schutte in the selling and profits of the deal.

<UNKNOWN>: The deal itself, the obtaining of the diamonds that you would concede had nothing to do with your work as a security policeman?

ANSWER: Absolutely not Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: What was the reason behind fetching the body once it became known to you that the diamond dealer had been killed?

ANSWER: Well firstly because of the extreme danger of a very sensitive source like Joe Mamasela being uncovered, his identity, secondly the danger of embarrassing the security
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police in extreme, which could result if for instance Joe Mamasela and Almond Nofomela and even myself then were charged with illegal diamond dealing or/and murder, that exactly that will happen what happened on the evening of 19 October 1989 when Almond was to be sentenced the next morning on death row and he spoke out about all this illegal government sanctioned hit squads that was going on in the security police.

<UNKNOWN>: Why did you first pick up the body before seeking advice or reporting the problem to one of your seniors?

ANSWER: I knew that was the first priority to pick up all exhibits possible, get then the necessary authorisation and report back or report and feedback and then get rid of the exhibits on command.

<UNKNOWN>: Why did you report to Van der Hooven and not to Schoon initially?

ANSWER: There was no time, it was 8 at night when they returned.   The team had already departed for Durban, there was extreme urgency to get hold of that body that same night before the morning, next morning daybreak, and then to proceed to the team in Durban to dispose of the body.

<UNKNOWN>: What did you expect would be the reaction of Van der Hooven have been once you had told him?