Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

MR BRACHER: No, no, at that time when "at that stage when the men were taken to the game farm, I was served to protect the leader and his family" and so on.  You said that when the people were called to gather in the Western Transvaal, they gathered to defend the Volkstaat and your answer to that was you were also awaiting further instructions at that time - is that correct?

J H VLOK: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: And the first instruction you got to go on an attack was on Sunday 24th April 1994, you say you were instructed by Mr Barnard?

J H VLOK: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now, there's a huge gap here, between those two events had you heard nothing at all about the Bree Street bombing?

J H VLOK: Repeat that please?

MR BRACHER: Well let me put it more simply, had you - before you received instructions to go to Germiston, had you heard anything about the Bree Street bombing?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, when Abraham Myburgh gave me instructions to go to Koesterfontein, he said to me that they were busy with the building of the bomb, they said that they set off a bomb in Bree Street.

MR BRACHER: And did you know then that the AWB had not taken responsibility for that bomb?

J H VLOK: At that stage, no.

MR BRACHER: Put it the other way round - you hadn't heard that the AWB had taken responsibility for that bomb, publicly?

J H VLOK: No, they did not take responsibility as far as I know.

MR BRACHER: We're now on Sunday 24th April, 1994.  Your war is now on the go, isn't it?  You're fighting this election?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now, you were gathered in by Myburgh in Ventersdorp by the Gardehuis, is that right?

J H VLOK: That is correct, yes.

MR BRACHER: Now, in the midst of this war of yours, I presume there was lots of Generals from the AWB in Ventersdorp?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, they were at various bases.

MR BRACHER: Were there Generals in Ventersdorp at the head office of the AWB?

J H VLOK: Yes, General Nico Prinsloo and General Andries Terreblanche.  Concerning Generals?

MR BRACHER: Yes.

J H VLOK: Concerning Generals - no it was only Andries Terreblanche and Nico Prinsloo.

MR BRACHER: What officers were there, senior to you?

J H VLOK: General Nico Prinsloo was the Secretary General and above him the leader himself, Eugene Terreblanche.

MR BRACHER: They were all present in Ventersdorp on Sunday 24th April at the head office?

J H VLOK: I do not know, no Mr Chairperson, not as far as I can remember.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, who was running this war from your head office?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, there was a radio room in the Gardehuis and from there they communicated with the Kommandos and they did the work there.

MR BRACHER: Now when you were told by Myburgh to go and bomb innocent civilians did you take it upon yourself to ask any senior officer of the AWB in Ventersdorp whether this was now the policy of the AWB?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, when I received the instruction that I had to execute, I knew I'm doing it in the name of the AWB and I did not question the decision of a senior officer and officers that was conveyed to the people at grassroots level and to myself.  I did not doubt it, doubt their decisions because I trusted them.

CHAIRPERSON: That is precisely the point that is made.  The policy of the AWB, as I understand it, was not to put the people's lives in danger, is that not true?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, that was war.

CHAIRPERSON: We're getting there.  The changes in that policy was to put people's lives in danger.  What Mr Brasher is asking you is that you thought it good to ask someone in the top structure "have we changed our policy now?"

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because I did not doubt their integrity.

MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	I'm now moving on to paragraph 28 of your...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brasher, you want to leave that point - I just need certain clarity on this point - the question was put to you when you took note or when you realised that you are going to plant bombs indiscriminately, did you not ask anyone if the policy changed or why it changed?  Are you busy telling us that it was normal for you, you did not see it as strange?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I knew that it was war, that the elections must be stopped and that a Volkstaat must be enforced and I believed that there will or we will get a Volkstaat at any cost.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you telling us that you knew earlier on that anything could happen before you received the instruction?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, because at the Trimpark Brigadier Leon van der Merwe said that we must protect this Volkstaat at any cost.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you then decide that it includes bombs?

J H VLOK: It could have been anything, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that?

J H VLOK: Not at that stage, no Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But it appears to me as if it was no surprise to you when you heard that you have to plant bombs amongst innocent civilians.  Didn't it seem strange to you?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because I knew it could entail anything.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were willing to do it out of your own?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I would not have done it out of my own, but in the name of the AWB I would have done it and in the interests of that which I believed in.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not want to know why you did it, I want to know what your attitude was.  If you were the leader of the AWB at that stage, wouldn't it have been strange to you to come forward with such a policy in order to stop the elections?  Is that what you're saying to us because it appears to me, while all the other applicants gave evidence that it was a change, for you it was as if nothing changed.  Why would that be?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, it was a change but I expected that anything will happen, I expected that the government of the day who was in power would act against us and that we had to protect ourselves and our Volkstaat for the reason we were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Brasher.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, paragraph 28, you talk about two Bothas who went to Koesterfontein with you.  As I understand it those two Bothas were not involved in building bombs or were they?

J H VLOK: No Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: How many other member of the AWB who were on Koesterfontein who weren't involved with building the bomb?

J H VLOK: It was Etienne le Roux ...[intervention]

MR BRACHER: No, no, he was involved with building - how many people were not involved with the bomb who were on Koesterfontein.  You were told to take anybody who arrived late to Koesterfontein - how many people turned up there?

J H VLOK: Koesterfontein?

MR BRACHER: Ja.

J H VLOK: The ones who came with me?

MR BRACHER: Later that day - that's Sunday 24th April.  Later that day together with two Bothas "we went to Koesterfontein, other AWB members were there who were not involved in building the bomb?"

J H VLOK: None.

MR BRACHER: What happened to the Bothas then?

J H VLOK: They were accompanied to the game farm.

MR BRACHER: So the only people on Koesterfontein building bombs was Barnard, Myburgh, yourself, Le Roux and Koekemoer -and de Wet who arrived later?

J H VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson, de Wet arrived later.  It was me, Etienne, Cliff, Abraham and Koekemoer.

MR BRACHER: Why do you suppose it was done in such secrecy away from the general membership of the AWB?

J H VLOK: I do not know because I did not take the decision that Koesterfontein would be the place where the bombs would be built.

MR BRACHER: You were building a bomb - did it ever occur to you why is this being done secretly away from the general membership of the AWB who have come to fight this war?

J H VLOK: Everybody was placed at different bases and I believe this was the base pointed out to them where they should do their job.