Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I took a membership from the branch in Zone 12, Sebokeng, I did not obtain it from Bonga.  At that time he was at Zone 12 and I obtained the membership from the branch office which was in Zone 14.

MS MOLOISANE: Tell this Committee why did you take part in the killing of Hapile Ndumo and the assault on Elsie Mokoena.

CHAIRPERSON: Before he starts that, can he give an indication as to when he became a member of the ANC Youth League?  That is not stated in his application form.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was it a mistake or an oversight, because I made to understand by your counsel that you understand English fairly well, that in your application form on page 176, paragraph 7(b), when you were asked to state in what capacity you served the organisation or liberation movement concerned, you said criminal and Self Defence Unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: This was a mistake from my side.  I wanted to write here that I was a member of the Self Defence Unit fighting the criminals that were in the township.  It so happened that I did not write it properly.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you become a member of the Self Defence Unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it the same unit that you say was being commanded by Bonga Khumalo?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Can you repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of a unit that you have led evidence as having been commanded by Bonga Khumalo?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When you refer to it as a cell, you are actually referring to your particular unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: In your evidence you say you were in the cell that was commanded by Bonga Khumalo, when in your evidence you refer to the word "cell", are you referring to your unit, your Self Defence Unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what I want to know.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I really don't understand you.  I'm talking of the Self Defence Unit.  I don't quite understand you when you start talking of cells.  Maybe you can put your question in a different way so that I can understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Your counsel asked you in whose cell did you belong, do you remember being asked that question by your counsel?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Can she repeat the question so that I can understand it clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall having been asked that question, yes or no?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I remember she asked me a question.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall her asking you in whose cell did you belong?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I remember her asking me about a unit, not a cell.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think she used the word "cell" and not "unit".

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Can you enquire from her, Chairperson, which word did she use?

CHAIRPERSON: I am telling you she used the word "cell".  There is nothing wrong, we just want to clarify issues before you even go further in your evidence, so that we are not sitting with unnecessary contradictions.  There is nothing that wrong, I just need clarity whether when you responded to that question which related to the word "cell", you actually misunderstood it, in fact you would have responded to the question if it was phrased with a reference to the word "unit" and not "cell".

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I did not understand the word.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say Bonga Khumalo was in command, was he commanding your unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is your Self Defence Unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, may I just state that maybe the use of the word "cell", I said in your cell or command, may be condoned if ever it creates some problems.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's been clarified, we just didn't want the record to stand uncorrected lest it be misconstrued as a contradiction on your client's part.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you, Madam Chair.
	Now how did you feel after you established the role that Hapile and others played during the Boipatong Massacre?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I was worried when I heard such a thing because it took place within an organisation that I belonged to.  Those people who were killed there belonged to my organisation, now this disturbed me a lot.

MS MOLOISANE: So you say you had this perception, or  you believed, or you were under the impression that they had sold you out in other words, sold the people of Boipatong out?

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that evidence, Ms Moloisane?

MS MOLOISANE: Or let me put it this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't established that evidence.

MS MOLOISANE: Or let me put it this way ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Lay a question that is going to give you a basis on which you can then proceed to have him give you his impression.

MS MOLOISANE: You say you went to investigate whether that was true, the Boipatong incident was true, as far as it related to Hapile Ndumo?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: What kind of investigation did you carry out?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I went to her and I asked her where they were during Boipatong Massacre, and she told me that they were part and parcel of that incident.  She told me that they took part in Boipatong Massacre.  That was my investigation, and she explained it that way to me.

MS MOLOISANE: Did she tell you what role did she play, specific role did she play?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moloisane, I don't want to interfere with your evidence-in-chief and the way you are leading your witness, but I thought that evidence has already been established and that the role that she had said she had played was in knocking on the doors of the residents around the place who would open when hearing that the people who were, I think shouting outside, wanting to be opened up for, were female.  I thought that was already established.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What I would however want to ask Mr Mkhwanazi is, when did Ms Ndumo, when did she tell you that she had participated in the Boipatong Massacre in relation to ...(intervention)

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Can I please get a new set of hearing aids, I do not hear clearly with these ones.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you comfortable now with the headphones?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did Hapile Ndumo tell you about her role during the Boipatong Massacre?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: She told me on the day of her death.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  And that would be the 15th of August 1993?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what had prompted her to tell you about her participation?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I asked her because I had received information from Samuel Neti, and I wanted to be sure as to whether she said it.

CHAIRPERSON: And when had you received that kind of information that connected her to the Boipatong Massacre?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Myself and John Radebe were on our way from Zone 12, that's when he told me that.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that on the 15th of August 1993?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed, Ma'am.

MS MOLOISANE: You make mention of this Zone 12 in your affidavit, what was happening at this Zone 12 that made you to go up and down this Zone 12?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We went to Zone 12 because we did not have bullets, the firearms that we had ran short of bullets.  That's when we went to Zone 12 to look for bullets.

MS MOLOISANE: Now why was Hapile Ndumo killed on that day and why was Elsie Mokoena assaulted or shot at as well?