Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-17

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: That is not true because I have already mentioned that on our arrival the deceased's wife went out and ran away.  I can't understand, when it happened, she was not there.

ADV DE JAGER: That's not the question, we don't know where she was.  The question is simple, did you chop him with a panga or not?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: No I didn't chop him with a panga.

MR MUSHASHA: Did you see anyone in your presence chopping the deceased with a panga?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: What I saw was when the the deceased chopped one omongst the mob.  When the deceased chopped on of us on the hand, I saw that.  I did not witness the deceased being chopped.

MR MUSHASHA: There was also evidence in court that the deceased was chopped with a pick.  Did you see that happening?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: No I know that he was chopped with a pick.

MR MUSHASHA: Who did that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Accused number 1 Justice Rama Brother who is also present here.

MR MUSHASHA: I still want to understand how it came about that you joined this group which proceeded to the deceased's kraal.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I have already explained to this Court that I joined the mob which was going to Frans' kraal, then I went with them.

MR MUSHASHA: Now what made you join this group going to the deceased's kraal?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I joined the group because during that time things were corrected by a mob.  That is the youth were doing nothing but the only thing to do was to correct things which were not in order.  Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mushasha, is it being denied that a group came to that house and attacked the house as a result of which the deceased died and the house was burned?

MR MUSHASHA: No it's not denied.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it being denied that this witness was part of that group.

MR MUSHASHA: No it's not being denied.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's the point wanting to know why he joined a group or how he joined a group.

MR MUSHASHA: It's because in this evidence he said he was invited but now my instructions are that no he was not invited the group, he was actually in the meeting which preceded the procession to go there.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get down to that.

MR MUSHASHA: In your evidence you stated you were invited to join the group which was proceeding to the deceased's kraal.  But now that differs from my instruction.  My instructions are that now you were actually in the meeting at the dam, which meeting decided to proceed to the deceased's kraal.  What do you say to that?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: That is not true.

MR MUSHASHA: My further instructions are to the effect that you were also part of the meeting which decided that the deceased should be killed because he was a wizard.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I think you are asking me something which I didn't say and seeing that I haven't said that then it means I don't what you are asking me that I was at the meeting because what I'm saying today is what I know.  What you are asking me you might have heard about it by a person who was not in the meeting.  What I'm telling you is what I know.

MR MUSHASHA: My instructions in this regard is that while on the one hand you admit participating in the killing of the deceased, you are not making a full disclosure prior to the killing.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: On the day on which the deceased was killed was on the 6th and I have explained how I joined the mob and the like.  Something which I don't know, maybe something outside the date of the 6th, but what happened on the 6th is what I'm trying to explain.

MR MUSHASHA: The impression that I get is that you are trying to deny the fact that you participated in the decision that day that the deceased should be killed, should be removed from that area.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I'm denying that.  Maybe it is because Your Honourable, maybe you are not sure, you must know that I am not a citizen of Shuzi(?), I was staying at Madombeja, so many meetings were there but I was staying at Madombeja.  It might have happened on the day that I was not there because I was staying at Madombeja attending school there.  I don't know that the thing you are referring to of which date and where I was on that day when you are trying to force me to agree that I was there.

MR MUSHASHA: I'm not forcing you to agree but what I'm putting to you are my instructions which I carry from the victims.  Mr Chairman, maybe I missed the response hereto.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think he has given another response, his last response was that he wasn't at the meeting.

MR MUSHASHA: I'm not trying to make you repeat the reason for the killing, but I just want to be clear on this point, I just want to see how you link up the killing with the politics of the day.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I have already explained that we decided to kill him because we believed he is the one who was capable of giving the leaders who were leading in the government medicines so that they will remain in the government, even if things are wrong.  They would just stay there and then people would not see all the things which would be happening in the government.  So they used to get medicine from the witches, that is why we targeted the witches so that we can go further from where we were intending to go.

MR MUSHASHA: I understand that but the problem which I have is that this is not the way you put it in your affidavit in particular number 6.  I hope you are aware of what the contents of paragraph 6 is.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes I know.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you think the contents of paragraph 6 is similar to what you are saying now?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Yes it's the same because I'm saying witches were used to give the people in high positions in the government medicine so that they can remain intact and be powerful.  So when we tried to make the government fall it was impossible because of these witches and these witches were also protected by the police whom we suspected that they were supposed to protect the community, but then they were protecting the witches and the police are the government officials of the government of the day.  So in that way we realised that these people were all a big obstacle of preventing us from re-incorporating our government to the Republic of South Africa where we were really intending to do so.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you still believe that the deceased was a wizard?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: No I grew up knowing that I think I will still die living in that, or knowing that, because since I grew up I don't know if this thing will ever be erased from my mind.

MR MUSHASHA: Do you believe that the deceased was actually a wizard?

CHAIRPERSON: He saying that till the day he dies he will be ...(intervention)

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: That means that Your Honourable, because I'm saying that till the day I die, seeing that I'm still alive, then it means I still believe that.

MR MUSHASHA: What is that deed which the deceased did which caused you to believe that he was actually a wizard?

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: The deceased was alleged to be responsible in bewitching a certain person from Mabandu who was said to be the father of Moses Mabanmdu.  It was heard that he is the one who was responsible for his death.

MR MUSHASHA: Finally I just want to put it to you, according to my instructions the deceased was not a witch.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: Your Honourable, I'm trying to explain, it might be the fourth time or the tenth time that ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: You told us you still believe it and it's not necessary to try to be funny with the advocate asking you questions.

SAMUEL KUDZINGANA: I apologise for that Your Honourable.

MR MUSHASHA: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MUSHASHA

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Patel.