Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, we have adjourned till nine o'clock this morning and we were going to continue as I understood it, with the cross-examination of the victims who gave evidence yesterday.  Are they present?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I am terribly sorry to have to tell you that even though I have told the prejudiced yesterday that they must come to me that I must take their affidavits, as I understood to do and although I have made an appointment with them for this morning, they have not come to my offices, they never showed up.  I am terribly sorry about this, but this is as far as I can take the matter.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Stander are they truly anxious to take part in these hearings or do they just show up here to come and say something?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, the impression that I got was that they truly want to contribute to these hearings.  It might be just a transport problem, they come here together.
	I can't give you any information on that.  Mr Oliphant was here early this morning, he has already been cross-examined.  I have not had an opportunity to discuss the matter with him and find out what the problem was.  I couldn't find him outside when I was looking for him.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other 11 victims whom you represent, have not seen it fit to attend the hearings?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I have not seen the others since the last time we had a hearing in September.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, doesn't that confirm what my colleague has said, that they appear to be totally disinterested?  You haven't seen them since last September, you haven't consulted with them, you haven't taken affidavits from them, they haven't been to see you to ask what was happening and they haven't bothered to come to the hearing?
	Are they interested parties at all?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I got the impression that they wanted to contribute.  I cannot take the matter any further than that, I am terribly sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, can you tell me, did you ask them to come to your offices to make affidavits?

MR STANDER: Yes, indeed I did that.

CHAIRPERSON: And they just ignored that?

MR STANDER: Nobody showed up.  The people who showed up, their evidence was led yesterday.
	But yesterday afternoon after the adjournment I once again spoke with them, and I was told that the rest of them would be at my offices this morning at seven o'clock, but they never showed up.

CHAIRPERSON: So they show no interest at all?  Very well, I think we should go on with the cross-examination of Mr Khoja?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, he is here and he is present and he is prepared to give evidence now.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, we are unfortunately not ready to proceed with the cross-examination of Mr Khoja.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not, Mr Memani, you have had since we adjourned yesterday to prepare?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Yes, My Lord, but we had those volumes to go through overnight and we still haven't finished doing that.

CHAIRPERSON: You have an Attorney to assist you?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, My Lord, he he's had his share of the record to go through.  You will recall that we only got these things yesterday and there was also the record?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I have looked at them Mr Memani - 99 percent of them do not relate your client at all, you can just flip down through the pages.  You don't have to read them all, do you?  Have you looked through them?

ADV MEMANI: You have to go through them in order to see that they are not relevant, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   And that takes a second or two.

ADV MEMANI: Well, it has not been the case.  As far as I can recall ...

CHAIRPERSON: And you in fact were not here when we resumed at nine o'clock this morning, were you?

ADV MEMANI: I was here My Lord, what I was told was that the proceedings were not going to start because there were no victims.  I then went to fetch my phone from the car.  I was told that we were not going to start now.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think, he says he is not ready.  How long do you think you are going to take to go through this Mr Memani?  Everything is delayed now.

ADV MEMANI: Unfortunately it is not because of me, but it could take about two hours.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you tell me how many of these papers you have gone through already?

ADV MEMANI: I have gone through about half of the papers.

ADV DE JAGER: And if you will need another two hours, it means that you spent two hours on going through the rest?

ADV MEMANI: Not necessarily My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Which papers have you gone through?

ADV MEMANI: I have finished pages 1 - 117.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the one volume of the occurrence book?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.  And I am about quarter way in pages 118 - 274.

CHAIRPERSON: And have you done the pocket books?

ADV MEMANI: I haven't done the pocket books and the register.

CHAIRPERSON: And what has your Attorney done while you have been going through this one?

ADV MEMANI: He was going through the evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence?  What?  The transcript?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he get that?

ADV MEMANI: He got it last night.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't he make arrangements to get the transcripts earlier?

ADV MEMANI: He did make arrangements earlier, but we never got the records earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you get the transcript from?

ADV MEMANI: We got the transcript from Mr Brink.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you ask him for it?

ADV MEMANI: We asked for the record some time last year.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me when?

ADV MEMANI: My Attorney is going to go through the correspondence My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: You were present at the previous hearing and your Attorney was present.  Did you make notes of the evidence?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: You could work on them as one normally does?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, one can work on them, but the point is that I have not finished the pocket book.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but the point is we adjourned to enable you to do that, why did your Attorney not assist you in working on these documents?

ADV MEMANI: The notes, the reserves are not complete My Lord, you know, this is something that occurred last year, about three or four months ago and the evidence is lengthy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but we adjourned particularly for this matter to be proceeded with this morning, didn't we?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Not for the whole of Mr Ngo's evidence to be analyzed this morning, for us to proceed with the cross-examination of a single witness.

ADV MEMANI: It is not, we are not, it is not because my Attorney has not finished reading the evidence that we are not ready to proceed.  It is because I have not finished going through the pocket book.

CHAIRPERSON: If your Attorney had gone through while you went through one volume, he had gone through the other, noting the references to your client, you could have done it in the same space of time.

ADV MEMANI: But as I have already indicated, the notes are not perfect and I needed his assistance on the evidence as well.

CHAIRPERSON: What notes are not perfect?

ADV MEMANI: My notes of the evidence that was led.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you going through the evidence, are you telling us now?  I understood you were going through these documents so you could question the Police Officer who had given evidence about them?

ADV MEMANI: My Lord, I am preparing cross-examination broadly My Lord, it is not going to be limited to what is in the books.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you could have prepared that before you came here Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: I could not prepare it without getting the occurrence books and the pocket books My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I consider this a complete waste of time, I think you and your Attorney have failed to prepare properly for a hearing you knew was going to take place and now you want another two hour adjournment.