Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-10

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Goso?

MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, I wish to thank the indulgence of the Committee.  I now present my witness and he is ready to be sworn in.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: (sworn states)

MS GOSO: Mr Sityodama, how far have you gone in school?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I went up to standard three in the real education.

MS GOSO: Can you please tell the members of the Committee, where do you stay?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I reside at Crossroads, at number 2704, that is my house number.  Old Crossroads.

MS GOSO: For how long have you stayed there?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I arrived there in 1975, when the place was established.

MS GOSO: Are you a member of the PAC?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I am a member of PAC.

MS GOSO: Do you hold any position there?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I used to be a Branch Chairman, Chairperson.  After that I became an Organiser and right now I am in the Region of PAC.

MS GOSO: Mr Chairman, the Interpreter missed ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I didn't hear that, he said he used to be Branch Chairman, then he was an Organiser and then he went on to say something else.  What was that?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I am in the Region of PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: What Region?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I am in the Western Cape Region.

CHAIRPERSON: And what position do you hold, if any?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I am just an additional member.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you stop being Branch Chairman?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: That was the year before last.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do proceed.

MS GOSO: Do you know the applicant?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I know him as a member of PAC who is in my Branch.

MS GOSO: When did he become a member?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: He started in 1991, it was in June.

MS GOSO: Can you please tell ...

CHAIRPERSON: How many people became members in June 1991?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Many people, there are more than 500.

CHAIRPERSON: In June 1991?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many in July 1991?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: If I had books in front of me, I would be able to answer that question, if I had the data base with me.  I won't be able to estimate.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that he became a member in June 1991?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: We do have a data base, we record each time a person is joining.  We write that in our roll book.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that he became a member in 1991?  Who told you that?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I looked at the data base, where there is an entry of each and every member's date of joining the Organisation.  There is even a card there that has got all the information.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MS GOSO: During the time you were in office as the Branch Chairperson, as you were in office as Branch Chairperson, do you know whether there was any conflict in the area?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes, there was a conflict.

MS GOSO: Can you please very shortly and briefly, inform the Members of the Committee about that conflict?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: The conflict in the area, it started as if it was a domestic problem, but we realised that it was actually targeting the members of the PAC and they were hitting their houses also.  Hitting the houses of the PAC members.

MS GOSO: Yes, can you please continue.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Goso, can I ask him, I think he was too fast for the Interpreter to pick up everything.  Can he repeat what he has just said, how this conflict started?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: This conflict started as a community problem, but after some time, it changed, the whole thing changed now because the members of PAC were being attacked.

ADV SANDI: Attacked by who?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: We won't know because we used to say there were gangsters, because we couldn't see those people.  The only thing that was happening, our people were being attacked.  We couldn't see the people who were attacking them.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Goso, without interrupting you, can you recall who was attacked?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: The people who were attacked there, the first person Elsie Mkumbusi's house was attacked and Mr Nyangweni's house was attacked.  Mr Makoeto's house was also attacked.  A gentleman from Siko family who was shot in the eye, he was from number 1749.

MS GOSO: And it is quite correct to assume that the members of the organisation were quite concerned about these attacks?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: From the very first day when these houses were attacked, I woke up in the morning, I phoned the Region.  I wanted to call the people there, I wanted them to come and see the damage.
	The person from the Region came and I told Mr Deo also that our members were being attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Give me the name of this person, who was it that you talked to?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: It was Deo Mabusela who was the Chairman of the Region at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he come and see the damage that was done?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: The Organiser Michael Siolo came to check the damage on the very same day.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry about that, I am not very familiar, give me the name again please.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Michael Siolo.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he, what was his position?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: He was the Organiser in the Region.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he came to see the damage?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What about Mr Mabusela, did he come?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: He came later.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: When that happened, we submitted a report.  The Regional Chairman said he will try and look for people who will be able to handle that problem of our members who were being attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: He said he was going to meet with the High Commander of the Security, TF.

MS GOSO: Mr Sityodama, can you please explain to the Members of the Committee what you mean by TF, what does that acronym stand for?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: That is a Task Force.

DR TSOTSI: Did you report to the Police at all?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: And what was the result?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: The Police came and inspected the damage.

ADV SANDI: Which Police station was this?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: Nyanga Police station.

ADV SANDI: Do you know the Police Officer who was investigating the matter?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: The Police that I knew there, was Carolus who was in the lower, he knows that.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us when was this.  When was this matter reported to this Policeman?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: We reported the incident on the very same day, it was on a Sunday.  We were attacked on a Saturday evening, we woke up and reported the case the following day, that was on a Sunday morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I want to know what month are we talking about, and what year.

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I can't remember the month.

CHAIRPERSON: And you can't remember the year?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: If I am not mistaken, it was in 1991 because I became a Chairman in 1991.

MS GOSO: When did this incident that you are referring to, take place?  Can you remember?

CHAIRPERSON: Which incident are you talking about now Ms Goso?

MS GOSO: When this attack took place, that you have referred to?

CHAIRPERSON: The one that was reported to the Police?

MS GOSO: The one that was reported to the Police, can you remember when it took place?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: I cannot remember the month, I cannot remember the month when this took place, but I think the Policeman who was handling the case, has got the date.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

MS GOSO: How long after the incident had taken place, did you report it to the Police?

WILFRED SITYODAMA: This took place on a Saturday evening.  We reported it the following day in the morning, it took place Saturday evening, and the following day, that was on a Sunday, we went to the Police station.

MS GOSO: Do you remember or can you, are you able to explain whether the Regional structure after you had reported to them, took any steps about this matter?