bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MS PATEL: So at that stage when the report was made to Mr de Kock, the only thing that could have been said to him was that you had tried to - the group had tried to infiltrate, perhaps a cell at Chesterville and that there was a shooting and people had been shot, but that was it.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson, I think that was basically what could have been said.  I cannot remember word for word.

CHAIRPERSON: Well someone put it, I don't know if it was Mr Hugo, that you very quickly left that scene.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you left in a hurry from the scene, that you left Chesterville in a hurry.  So there hadn't been a chance?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, we didn't really have many opportunities to talk.

CHAIRPERSON: And to give reports and ...

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.  I see it's after four, do I carry on or do we hold over until tomorrow?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Have you still got a few things to cover?

MS PATEL: I think I might still, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, then we're going to adjourn.  Yes, we'll adjourn at this stage and we'll reconvene tomorrow morning at nine thirty.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

CHAIRPERSON: Good Morning.  For the record it's Friday the 3rd of September 1999 and we are continuing with the amnesty applications of N J Vermeulen and A B Nofomela.  Appearances are as indicated earlier, composition of the Panel as well.  Mr Shezi.

MR SHEZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any witnesses?

MR SHEZI: That is so, Mr Chairman.  I'll be calling just one witness Mr Chairman, it's Mr Tebello Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll take the name just now.  Mr Shezi, just give us those full names again.

MR SHEZI: Tebello T-E-B-E-L-L-O Trywell T-R-Y-W-E-L-L Mbatha M-B-A-T-H-A.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR SHEZI: If I may further indicate to you, Mr Chairman, he's one of the survivors who survived the shooting incident, which is what this hearing is about.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Very well.  Thank you, Mr Shezi.

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.  Mr Shezi.

MR SHEZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: Mr Mbatha, you are one of the people who were involved in this incident, now termed Chesterville incident.  Can you confirm that?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, I do confirm.

MR SHEZI: At the time this incident took place, how old were you?  Sorry, can you repeat that?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: I was 14 years old.

MR SHEZI: Can you just tell this Hearing as to how it came about that you were there, just put this Panel in a picture as to the whole incident of that night in question.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I will take you by the hand and say "let us work together for peace, let us work together for a future of all of our people."  And if there are any, I am willing to go up right now.

JUDGE PILLAY: Thank you.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions that you would like ask?

ADV SIGODI: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising from questions that have been put by the Panel, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: There is one piece of incomplete business from yesterday and that is the comparative statistics from various sources.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I am still waiting.  I have decided to close my cross-examination at the time I did, rather than detain Mr Ismail and reserve what I am going to say till this point.  I think the appropriate procedure that I suggest that we adopt, is once the various sources of various statistics come up with them, which I believe should be tomorrow afternoon by the latest, we submit it through your legal representatives for your comment, to detain you to wait for statistics would not be fair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that sounds like a reasonable way of doing it and if there is an agreement, there is not a problem.  If there isn't an agreement as to that, then maybe between you, you can sort out a way of resolving that.

MR RICHARD: I believe we will sort it out, I don't believe it is insurmountable.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Any questions arising?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, we will wait and get the documents from Mr Richard and then we will give him our response, other than that, we have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ismail, that then concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I see that it is four o'clock now.  I think this would probably be the best time to adjourn, rather than sitting late and starting and not finishing another witness.  We will now adjourn until tomorrow morning at this venue, half past nine in the morning.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it will be Mr Pule.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, for Mr Pule's evidence then at half past nine tomorrow morning.  Thank you, we will adjourn now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-07

JUDGE PILLAY: Is it correct that he wants to cross-examine Mr Ismail on the contents of the Section 29 statement, because I thought he submitted that at the time of the ruling he was unable to refer to passages in that document, but since then Mr McBride has testified and he elucidated on certain aspects.  He now wants to cross-examine Mr Ismail on those aspects as a result of the information gained from Mr McBride, nothing to do with Section 29 statement. That's how I understand it.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, that's like getting the Section 29 statement in through the side door, but because of what I have to say next, it's really going to be academic.  We do not want there to be any suggestion from any quarter that we are holding back any information and whilst I submit that Mr Richard has not laid a proper basis for the recall of Mr Ismail, Mr Ismail is here and prepared to answer further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well thank you, we appreciate the approach taken.  I don't think there's any need to respond, Mr Richard.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, as long as Mr Richard doesn't use the opportunity as a fishing expedition and tries to limit the questioning to what he perceives to be the real issues in dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, which he did basically suggest what he's going to be questioning on when he made his application.

MR RICHARD: In that regard, my reply is going to be the discussion between Mr McBride and Mr Ismail.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I understood, relating to the car bomb.  Yes.  Thank you.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-07

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, I confirm what Mr Mall said and we want to express our gratitude and indebtedness to him for having assisted as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Dehal.

MR RICHARD: Chair, my report as to what occasioned the delay, is a process has started, it is not concluded yet, in fact I will be able to consult properly with people as to what the outcome so far is, after we've concluded this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Richard, I did express our appreciation, I don't know if you were present then, at what has occurred, we think it's important.  Thank you.  Mr Dehal?
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-08

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  And secondly, in the command structure that you belonged to, between Mr Lecordier, yourself and perhaps other persons, I think you referred to yourself as having been the Commander of that unit - sorry, bear with me ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He said that they were group, would stay together and he basically acted on instructions.

MR DEHAL: I'm sorry, Mr Chairperson, I misunderstood that, perhaps I'll rephrase that question.
	Mr Pearce, in regard to the taking of decisions, when you were cross-examined by Mr Richard you talked about individuals taking the decision, is it not correct that you jointly, with Matthew Lecordier and others who featured in that unit, made joint decisions after joint discussions?

EDWARD ALLAN PEARCE: Yes, we did.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry, Judge Pillay has indicated that he wished to put a question.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Pearce, what's your date of birth?

EDWARD ALLAN PEARCE: The 1st of January 1961.

JUDGE PILLAY: And what's your educational qualifications?

EDWARD ALLAN PEARCE: At the stage when we burnt the school I was doing night school, standard eight.

JUDGE PILLAY: At that school?

EDWARD ALLAN PEARCE: At the same school, yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: And did you attend the same school when you were attending normal school?

EDWARD ALLAN PEARCE: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE PILLAY: Were you part of the student politics while you were at school?

EDWARD ALLAN PEARCE: No, not while I was at school.

JUDGE PILLAY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising?

MR DEHAL: None from me, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Pearce, that then concludes your testimony.

EDWARD ALLAN PEARCE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  No well I think if we can do it on that basis because it might well be Wednesday, depending on how long we take and also there might be a bit of time required to finish off the preparations for argument or whatever.  But then on the other hand, if it does occur a bit earlier, if Mr Prior could communicate with you and give you of course reasonable notification of when we'll proceed.  But from what it sounds like it will in all probability be Wednesday.  Thank you.
	So at this stage then, Ladies and Gentlemen, because we're not in a position to receive any further evidence now - as you heard Mr Dehal has to finalise his consultations with the next applicant who's giving evidence, namely Mr Lecordier, he's asked for an adjournment until Monday, everybody's in agreement with that adjournment, so we will then adjourn until Monday morning at this venue at 10 o'clock.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

MR BOOYENS: Ja, I would ask that he be excused, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he be available if something should crop up, or what's the position?
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I will ask that he be excused, but Mr van Zyl will be an aeroplane flight away this week.  Next week ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Aeroplane flights may even be quite a distance.  No, ...(indistinct - no microphone).  Mr Booyens, we won't recall him if it's not necessary or if you yourself don't think it's necessary to recall him.

MR BOOYENS: I'm talking about a domestic flight.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Who would be the next witness?

MR WILLS: Thank you, Chairperson, I call Mr Gold.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

CHAIRPERSON: If your client agrees, then that is fine.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chair.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chair, may I also please just mention one aspect.  There is a lot of dispute that doesn't actually directly relate to us, about this person on the photos, who he really is.  The original photos surely must be available, that are clearer.  Does the Commission have the original photographs, or where are they?

MR MAPOMA: We don't have them, but I think perhaps Adv Chris MacAdam might give some direction because he was the person who was compiling these reports and unfortunately we have been working on the photocopies.  But I will take it upon myself to find out from him if he can assist us with the original copies.

MR LAX: Or maybe his successor, Mr Barnardo might have them.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would just like to place it on record that the Amnesty Committee's Investigation Unit has this one photo, they faxed it.  I asked for the original because the fax was even worse and I got no answer from them.  We were trying to help, but to this day they did not give us original photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you kindly try and find out whether you could get anything?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir.

MS VAN DER WALT: May Mr Visser then please excused on the same conditions as the other applicants?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: The only thing is if we do get the photos, I don't know whether he'll be able to get them by tomorrow, I don't know.  Well, try and see what you can do.
	We'll adjourn until tomorrow 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-17

MR SEWPAL: Sorry, you referred to me page 13 of the bundle.  Yes, this was a decision that seemed to have been taken by them jointly, without any other person being involved in it, that I have to concede.

ADV SANDI: My understanding of the Act here is that it is envisaged that the person applying for amnesty must have been carrying out orders from his organisation and not someone who is just on a frolic of his own.

MR SEWPAL: I can't pitch this case at any higher level than it has been brought actually, I am limited by the evidence that we have, so I can't really take the matter much further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Sewpal.
	Yes, that concludes the formal hearing of this application.  The Panel will consider the matter and will formulate a decision in this matter as soon as we can, given the other demands that we have to contend with.  Once the decision is available we will endeavour to ensure that all of the interested parties are apprised of the decision in the matter.  Under those circumstances the decision will be reserved and we want to express our ...
NO FURTHER RECORDING ON TAPE
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well that concludes the proceedings.  The Panel will have to consider all of the evidence and the arguments that were addressed to us carefully in order to come to a decision on the application before us.  Under those circumstances we will take time to consider the matter, we will reserve our decision and once that is available which we will try to do as soon as the circumstances allow us given the other demands the resources of the Panel and our Committee and we will then notify the parties as to the outcome of the application.  So in the circumstances the decision will be reserved.
	We extend our thanks to Mr Panday and Mr Sibeko and Mr Mapoma for your assistance and for all of the interested parties who have contributed towards this matter and towards trying to come to an understanding as to what was actually taking place at this particular stage at this particular place. 
	It concludes the sitting of the Committee as well, it takes care of the roll that we had here.  Before we adjourn the proceedings also extend our thanks to everybody who have assisted us in making it possible to have the hearing here for these past few days in Durban.  There's always a lot of effort that goes with having a hearing of this nature taking place and running smoothly as this one has and as they in most instances do we are always aware of the effort that goes with that and we're always grateful for everybody who contributes, to our interpreters, the rest of our staff and the proprietors of this venue for making their venue available to us for use for these purposes and for any members of the public who have come along to listen to the proceedings, that is also an important aspect, part of the process from our point of view.  We are always grateful for that.  We will now adjourn the proceedings.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-04-11

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  That concludes the formal part of the application.  We would have been minded to give an extempore judgment in this matter if the applicant was in custody.  He's not in custody, so there is no need to do that, it does bring with it some pressure on our administrative system.  So under those circumstances, we will follow the normal route and reserve the decision in this matter, which should be available very, very soon.  But in the circumstances we will reserve the decision.
	We thank you, Ms Loonat, for your assistance.

MS LOONAT: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And Ms Patel, in anticipation for the rest of the assistance that will be forthcoming from you.  Thank you.
	Has Mr Ntiyane been located?

MS PATEL: Just before we commenced, the Pinetown office had called to say that he is there.  I don't know if he's been brought through already or not.  If you would grant me a moment just to check.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in fact I just thought that I'll raise it to hear if he is here.  We will adjourn now - let's call it the tea adjournment, and then we can see when the next matter is available to be proceeded with.

MS PATEL: Yes, I will come and see you in chambers as soon as I know what's happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  You're excused, Ms Loonat.   We're adjourned.

MS PATEL: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-04-11

CHAIRPERSON: No we appreciate your assistance, but we thought we can squeeze a little bit more assistance out of you.
	Yes well that concludes the formal proceedings.  We always endeavour to give these decisions, for obvious reasons, as quickly as we can.  We always try, especially when people are in custody, because it makes such a big difference to their circumstances normally, it could make a big difference to their circumstances, we attempt to give these decisions as quickly as we can, but in this case we will take a bit of time and we will reserve the decision and make it available as soon as circumstances permit us to actually finalise the decision in the matter.  So under those circumstances we will reserve the decision and we will notify the parties as soon as it is available.
	We thank you once again Ms de Klerk, for your assistance in this matter, and Ms Patel we appreciate your assistance.  And Mr and Mrs Dladla, we thank you for coming, showing an interest in the matter, and we hope that you have at least by being present here, you have found out a little bit more about this particular incident and that you have found some benefit in having gone to the trouble of at least coming here to listen.  We regard that normally as important and we thank you for having come.
	I think that concludes our matters for today.  We believe that the remaining applicant for some or other reason hasn't managed to come through from Cape Town yet, and he's only expected later on today.

MS PATEL: Yes, that is correct, Honourable Chairperson, he's apparently only arriving at 7 o'clock this evening, so unfortunately I must request that we roll that matter over till tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, there's not much that we can do under those circumstances.  We have, I think, kept the pace with the matters that we do have on the roll.  So under those circumstances we are going to adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-04-12

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Webster.  That has been noted.  The translations are normally a working translation.  Unfortunately it is financially prohibited to have a professional translator to do the work for us, so we have these working translations.  We have amongst the Members of the Committee, people who are able to deal with the original text in most of the official languages, so normally they are picked up, but it does help us to hear that you have pinpointed those particular matters and those will definitely be attended to.  But as I say, it's normally just a working translation of the document.  But thank you very much.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Harkoo and Mr Panday, we will also excuse you.  Thank you very much for your trouble to come through.

MR HARKOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR HARKOO: There's just one request.  I've noted in the incident that I am particularly concerned about, that we have only a transcript of the sentence, which is just part of the entire judgment, and I think it's necessary.  If the Evidence Leader could ensure, at least for the next hearing, timeously, hopefully we could get it, a transcript of the judgment in its whole. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll note that.  We normally try and get these things where they assist in dealing with the matter.  Sometimes it's difficult, sometimes it's easy, but I agree, we should try to get as full a picture as possible.

MR HARKOO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well thank you very much.  Under those circumstances, we will then adjourn the matter.  We will also stand down until the next matter is available to be proceeded with.

MS PATEL: Yes, that is correct.  Apparently the applicant in that matter ...
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF - NO FURTHER RECORDING
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR WILLS: I'm sorry Mr Chairperson, I wonder, it may be convenient at this time, the family and Mr Mbane would like to have a discussion in the spirit of reconciliation, I wonder, before Mr Mbane's return to prison if that could possibly take place this afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we can take an adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-24

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	I would also like to thank certain persons for hosting and organising this video conference at the United States Consulate's Office, where we are sitting in Durban here.  I would like to thank Craig Kiehl the Consulate-General and also Jerry Williams and Devor Govinsami for their assistance.  From the FBI in Washington, Mike Tuyster, and in Johannesburg, Peggy Morgan and from Giant Video Screens, Johnny Dolnick, Ian Zulch and Cecil and from the South African Department of Foreign Affairs, Mr Ronnie Mamoepe and Dumisa Ntshinga and from the TRC, our own Paddy Prior and of course Debby Quinn who has done so much work.
	Thank you very much indeed, I think it has been - and Dr Naidoo as well for the work that he did in sending the skull and receiving it back again and supplying certain details that were relied upon by the Professor.  
	It has been a first time for me, and I am sure for most of us here, and I have found it an exhilarating experience and I think that it is something that will become more and more commonplace in the future.  Thank you very much indeed, Professor.

UNKNOWN: My pleasure.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-29

PAULUS MTHWANA: He was a member.

MS THABETHE: Why did you chose to go and rob a car?  Why didn't you borrow a car from one of the ANC members, because we've heard in previous matters that if there was an operation that needed to be done, they would - for example if there were arms that needed to be fetched somewhere, other members would lend other members cars to go and fetch those firearms.  Why didn't you borrow a car from one of the members?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I hear what you are saying, but we were in a situation that demanded urgent action because at the time we were under attack.

MS THABETHE: I don't understand your answer.  What situation?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was an urgent situation that prompted us to act in whatever manner that we could.

MR LAX: So urgent that you waited three days between the time you got your order and the time you went and stole the car.  Surely there were ANC members with cars, you could have borrowed them immediately.

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's how it happened.

MS THABETHE: When your attorney led you, she spoke about Saga Gumede having gone with you to eMbali.  Was it Saga Gumede or Nhlanhla Gumede who went with you to eMbali?  Can you please reply that?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was both of them.

MS THABETHE: And then when you came back, you left the arms with Saga?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And why did you choose Pinetown out of all the places, why Pinetown, to rob the car, why not Durban which is nearer than Pinetown from Chesterville?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It could have been anywhere.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Any more evidence Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any evidence?

MS THABETHE: None Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any submission Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: No Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to leave it in our hands?

MS MOHAMED: Yes.
NO ARGUMENT BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: We don't need to hear you.  We reserve this decision and we'll hand it down in due course.

MS MOHAMED: As the Committee pleases.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the roll for the day?

MS THABETHE: That's the roll for the day.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn till half past nine tomorrow morning.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: We used to communicate with letters with him.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he say that he was going to write, make his application?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: What I can remember is that when he came to Westville, he told me that he had forwarded an application, and he was going back to Waterval prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we adjourn until tomorrow morning?  Ms Mohamed, we are of the view that as happens on appeal, the normal court of law, that your application is one for condonation, if on the merits there seems to be prospects of success, then we will grant the condonation and deal with the merits.
	If we are of the view that the applications will fail on the merits, then we will refuse the application for condonation.   I am happy to deal with it on that basis, we will see at the end of the day, what we decide.

MS MOHAMED: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you happy with that?

MS MOHAMED: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then you can call them.  Are they not here?

MS MOHAMED: They are here, but - okay.

CHAIRPERSON: They have listened to what the applicant has said.

MS MOHAMED: Yes, and in addition to those, there are still two other witnesses that are present, that is Mr Nteani and Mr Shabalala, the two Commanders that have given Mr Mpanza ...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we will adjourn till tomorrow at nine o'clock, is that okay with the Prison Authorities?  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-31

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  The next matter, Mr Chair, was the matter of Eric Molobe, it is one of the applications that we have had various problems with.  The investigator, Mpume, even wrote a letter explaining the problems she has had with trying to get hold of the applicant.  The applicant was duly notified of this hearing, his matter was set down for yesterday, Wednesday.

CHAIRPERSON: And?

MS THABETHE: And he hasn't turned up, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that he was properly notified?

MS THABETHE: I am satisfied, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that matter is then struck from the roll.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, if I may just add for the record, this matter was initially set down on the 14th to the 18th of February 2000, there the applicant did not attend the hearing.  The proceedings continued with regard to other matters, but he never pitched at the hearing.  The same has happened in this one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Like I said the matter is struck from the roll.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other matter that we need to deal with?

MS THABETHE: That is the end of the roll, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Then this hearing is adjourned.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-09-04

MR MOERANE: Yes, unfortunately Chairperson, he has a bereavement in his family and he'd like to be excused.
	One question I forgot to ask him, the formal question, is what is your rank in the military?

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: I'm a brigadier-general.

MR MOERANE: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't know whether to say thank you General or thank you Doctor.

VEJANAND INDIJI RAMLAKAN: Both will do, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.  If we require you we can notify you through your advocate.  How long do you think we require an adjournment now.  Forty minutes?
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MOERANE: The maximum of forty minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: So we'll adjourn till 2 o'clock.  The hearing will now be adjourned until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee which comprises of myself as Chairman, Judge Andrew Wilson, on my right, Judge Ngoepe on my left, Mr Chris de Jager SC on his left, and attorney Ms Sisi Khampepe on the extreme right.  You may begin.

MR BRINK: Mr - may I sit, Mr Chairman, may I sit? This is the application of David Petrus Botha, Eugene Marais and Adriaan Smuts. I appear as the evidence presenter for the Committee. The applicants are all represented, and I'll leave them to introduce themselves for the record.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairman, I appear on behalf of Mr Dawid Petrus Botha.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I represent Mr Smuts.

MR WILKINSON: Andrew Wilkinson, and I appear on behalf of Eugene Marais.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I understand that the first applicant to give evidence will be Dawid Petrus Botha.
What language do you wish to speak?

MS VAN DER WALT: Afrikaans.

DAWID PETRUS BOTHA: (sworn states)

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Botha you are currently  in the Zonderwater Prison at Cullinan is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were - on what date were you convicted?

MR BOTHA: On 13th of September 1991.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were convicted on what charges?

MR BOTHA: Seven Charges of murder, twenty-seven of attempted murder, and one for the illegal possession of firearms.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were sentenced to death initially for the seven charges  of murder?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: After that your sentence was commuted and you were given lifelong imprisonment.

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Or a period of imprisonment?

MR BOTHA: I received a period of  30 years imprisonment.

MS VAN DER WALT: Could you sketch your background to the Committee and then also place before the Committee what actually happened.
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR BOTHA: The reason was that I had recruited my members so that I could see who would be available to be recruited as members and I then discussed this form and the policies of the Orde Boerevolk on the 24th of September with Mr Marais. I could not allow him to swear the oath on that day because it has to be done before two witnesses and obviously the witness must all be members of the Orde Boerevolk.
I could not bring in a stranger to sign as a witness because the document had to remain secret. Mr Marais, on the 24th, filled in his name and his particulars and he signed, but he hadn't yet actually sworn the oath. The oath was sworn on the 9th of October, and it was - I then signed as a witness as well as Mr Smuts. We were both members of the Orde Boerevolk and we could then sign as witnesses.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

JUDGE WILSON: Who signed as a witness for your first recruit?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, I must just say, that although I recruited my four members, the only two members who actually swore the oath were Smuts and Marais and myself. The other two members recruited by myself were prepared to take the oath, but once again because there were no witnesses present, I could not actually administer the oath to them, so up until this day they have never actually signed the oath.

JUDGE WILSON: My problem is you said you had to have two witnesses. How did you get that? Who were the two witnesses for the first person you recruited?

MR BOTHA: Well, here Mr Smuts and myself signed as witnesses. Those were the only two witnesses.

JUDGE WILSON: And who signed for Smuts?

MR BOTHA: Mr Marais and myself signed for Mr Smuts.

JUDGE WILSON: Although he was not, he had not been recruited at the time that Smuts was. He only signed in October, how could he have witnessed Smuts'?

MR BOTHA: No, I don't think you quite understand what I mean. What I am trying to say - this form - Mr Marais - was filled in on the 24th, but the oath was not actually taken. That only happened on the evening of the 9th of October, that's when he swore the oath.  And on the evening of the 9th, Mr Smuts filled in this form and also took the oath and myself and Mr Marais then signed as witnesses. Mr Smuts did not take the oath on the 24th or filled in the document before the 9th of October although Mr Marais did do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Botha.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-09

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Stuart.
	That then brings this phase of the hearing to an end.  We will now adjourn and as I said earlier, we will reconvene on Tuesday, immediately after the Easter weekend at Richard's Bay.  The venue where we will be at, at Richard's Bay is called the Zululand Chamber of Business Foundation.  It is in the Z.C.B.F. Community Park in Richard's Bay.
	We will commence the proceedings there on Tuesday, only in the afternoon.  I am advised that it takes some time to set up in the hall and in addition certain people will also only be arriving from their destinations at Richard's Bay during the course of the morning, or even in the early afternoon, so we will start there at half past two or so soon thereafter as is possible at the Zululand Chamber of Business Foundation Hall in Richard's Bay on next Tuesday.  Thank you.
	Sorry, before we adjourn, I would just like to thank all those persons who made this hearing possible.  First of all I would like to thank the church for the provision of the hall, it was a very nice venue.  I would also like to thank the caterers who catered teas and lunches for us, it was very nice indeed.
	For the people who worked the sound system and indeed for everybody else associated with the hearing here in Durban, thank you very much indeed.
	We will now adjourn.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS UNTIL 14-04-1998
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think I only had one question which I wanted to ask which has already been dealt with by Mr Hewit, with regard to the reference to the Chief Minister in that regard.  I wanted to find out, when you give your evidence with regard to the purpose for which the kombi was brought to you by Mr Xele, are you suggesting that the Chief Minister was in fact aware of the objective of which the transport was being provided to your hit squad?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is how he introduced himself to us, that is the case.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did he in fact explain to you that the Chief Minister was aware of the specific objective for which the transport had been provided to your hit squad?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills, do you have any questions arising?

MR WILLS: Yes, just one question.
	Mr Mbambo, I want to refer you again to the documents bundle, page 41 and I want you to confirm again whether the Judge's finding in this regard was correct and it refers specifically to Committee Member, Mrs Khampepe's questioning as regards the motivation for the killing of Sergeant Dlamini.  And I quote at line 15:
"The lack of proper and vigorous investigations of these murders and more so  Sergeant Dlamini's murder tend to support the accused's version that the murders were committed on instructions as part of the hit squad activity"
Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And again, is that a case where the Judge actually made a finding as to what happened in reality?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, I have a couple of questions which arise strictly speaking more out of the cross-examination of one of my learned friends, save that it's important - it's very brief, but it's important to the admissibility of certain evidence which will be dealt with of course in argument in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: As long as it's very brief because we've got to bring an end to the questioning otherwise we will continue ...[intervention]

MR STEWART: I'm conscious of that, thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mbambo, was it ever your experience that Mr Umvuyana misled you or lied to you in connection with how, his relationship with important people?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR STEWART: Did he ever give you cause to disbelieve him because he was perhaps trying to be self important?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, any questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit?

MR HEWIT: Certainly not arising out of those questions Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HEWIT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kladla?

MR KLADLA: No, I do not have any questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR KLADLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbambo, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
RECORDING EQUIPMENT SWITCHED OFF
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1977-08-07

MR BRINK: Very briefly Mr Chairman, I think one must accept that at the time there was an enormous amount of political upheaval and an enormous amount of conflict with houses being burnt down and vengeance burning downs and killings and vengeance killings and again vengeance killings, it just went on interminably so I think one can accept that the Applicant had a vague political motive, whether it gets over the questions of revenge is another matter which does concern me but in general I do think that having regard to what was going on in the townships at the time, having regard to the appalling loss of life and the appalling damage to property that the IFP would go on a rampage against the UDF and visa versa. This was just going on in this Province particularly.
	Those are really the only submissions I can make, you've heard the evidence so I think that the Applicant, although somewhat longwinded going into detail, one can understand his situation.  He's not a very sophisticated person and I got the impression that I think he was doing his best to tell the truth and of course as you know, the mere fact that he shows remorse is not a criteria for the purpose of amnesty but nonetheless, it's very healthy in the spirit of reconciliation to see the next of kin and the Applicant endeavouring to reconcile.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will make it's decision known in due course, thank you.

MR SHEMBE: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) there are no other matters for this Committee to hear?

MR BRINK: No, there are not Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(Inaudible)
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-24

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.  I am really sorry for what I did.  i ask them to forgive me because I realise that I was just childish to do all these things.  I am an adult now and realise that I was doing wrong.  I was still 18 then and immature.  An 18 year old cannot think or act like a 20 year or a 26 year old person.

ME DE KLERK: Is there anything you want to say to the families of the deceased?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: To the families, I say I am very sorry about the deceased.  I also ask the Maphumulo community at large to pardon me, and to all the leaders of the area, I say I am sorry for what I did.

ME DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ME DE KLERK: .

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) any questions you wish to put?

MR BRINK: Very briefly Mr Chairman. Did you have any personal knowledge of Mrs Khumalo's political activities if any?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I cannot say in which party did she belong.  What she used to do, however, is to criticise whenever I was wearing anything that I had to do with the IFP. I am the person who like to wear IFP clothes.  I then thought that the reason why she was critical about this is because she just came there because of her marriage to the person in the area.  She therefor wanted us to adopt what they were doing in the area.  She therefore wanted us to adopt what they were doing in the area where she came from.

MR BRINK: But she had been a neighbour of yours and had never done you any harm?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: She was my neighbour and there was no animosity between us.

MR BRINK: Tell me Mr Ngobese had you had liquor on that day?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: I am not a drinker.

MR BRINK: Thank you.

MR BRINK: .

CHAIRPERSON: You may move from there to your seat.

WITNESS IS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk are you calling any other witnesses?

ME DE KLERK: No further witnesses Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No I am not calling witnesses Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you wish to say on the evidence Mr de Klerk?

ME DE KLERK: Nothing further to address the Commission.

MR BRINK: I have no submissions to make.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well in the light of the fact that counsel have no submissions to make on the evidence that we have heard that brings the proceedings in this application to an end. The Committee will consider these applications and in due course make its decisions known to the applicants and to the dependents.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-26

MR BRINK: Yes. Mr Chairman when I return to Cape Town I will give immediate instructions for investigations to be done in regard to tracing the next-of-kin victims and the like in respect of all those matters but the one reservation I have, if the Ntuli matter is excluded then it would be pointless.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I can understand that.  Yes I mean if it falls outside the cut-off date then the Committee has no discretion.

MR BRINK: Ja. I don't know whether the Committee is in a position to make a ruling on that aspect of his application at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we don't make any rulings at this stage you know, but you know that on the evidence as it stands this was after the cut off date?

MR BRINK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the end of the matter isn't it?

MR BRINK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But without making a final ruling on the matter it seems that that seems to be the position.

MR BRINK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, the Committee will reserve its decision and give it after it has received such information as might be thought appropriate by counsel in this matter.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, may we then adjourn for a matter of two minutes so the representatives can be reconstituted and the new applicants brought in in the next matter?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We will step down for a few minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .
Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-13

MS VAN DER WALT: It appears to me that I'll have to make a  full disclosure  to the Committee.   I've made a mistake regarding the charges.   My client Mr Botha, informed me during the recess that he hadn't pleaded guilty to the charge of possession of the smoke grenade and that he also hadn't been convicted on that charge.
	Furthermore, he'd only been convicted for the possession of a machine gun.  The ammunition that was in his possession was ammunition that could be fired with a .303 and he had licence for such a rifle.  That was my mistake, so the amnesty only concerns the murder, attempted murder and possession of the machine gun.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MS VAN DER WALT: That's right, the FN.

MR PRINSLOO: Regarding my client - that applicant - he also informed me that he'd pleaded innocent to possession of the smoke grenade and had consequently been found innocent.  So therefore he applies for amnesty for the seven murders, the 27 attempted murder charges, the possession of the FN rifle and the accompanying ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The microphone isn't on.

MR PRINSLOO: No, not the AK47.  The AK applied to the third applicant.

ADV DE JAGER: So, all the charges up to charge 35?

MR PRINSLOO: All the charges except the last charge regarding the grenade and only one charge regarding the FN rifle and the ammunition.  That is all Mr Chairperson.

MR WILKINSON: The same in the case of the third applicant, the murder, the AK47 and his ammunition but not the tear smoke - not the teargas.  That wasn't a charge applying to him.  ...[no sound]

JUDGE WILSON: 5037,62 rounds, who was found guilty of that?

INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on.

MR PRINSLOO: I've been instructed that my client was found guilty only of the possession of ammunition fired by an FN rifle.

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible]

MR PRINSLOO: That's indicated as B.

INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on, the interpreter cannot hear.

JUDGE WILSON: And none of the 20mm rounds.  And the 7,62, was that only for the AK?

INTERPRETER: The microphone is not on.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon.  We are restricted to ...[no sound]  None.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, do you propose addressing?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, it might be convenient if my learned friend from the Legal Resources Centre address you and then I'll just sum up my views.
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-28

ADV POTGIETER: That is what I cannot understand. I am not persuaded that you had properly communicated to your clients the fact that a statement is now required by the TRC. And if you had done that in my view, if you had done that properly your client would have known three weeks ago that, that was necessary and we would not have had any of this long discussion that we are now compelled to have and to consider the matter of costs and how we should properly should be dealing with the matter.

MR HOLE: Sir I will try to answer this question once more. I cannot as I sit here Sir say whether or not if we had put it in the way that Mr Commissioner suggests, it would have achieved a different result. Because we sent an urgent message through our usual channel that our client should please come and see us. It appears from what he tells us today Sir that this was communicated to him but still we did not see him until we had to go and search for him. So I cannot as I sit here say if we had put it in the way that Mr Commissioner suggests this would have happened. It would be mere conjecture.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes well I understood him to say that he was informed about the fact that the matter was to be heard, nothing else.

MR HOLE: Yes certainly. It appears that they did not say to him what we wanted to see him. So whatever we put through to our contact was not conveyed fully to him any way. Thank you very much Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any submissions to make. You do not need to address us on the issue of costs, just on the merits?

MR HOLE: On the application Sir itself, I do not have anything to address.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. We are going to have to take a bit of time to consider this application and we will deliver the decision as soon as is possible. We will adjourn.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I hope the members of the Prison Services are able to bring the accused before nine o'clock.  We will adjourn until 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS