Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

MR LAX: You see, it strikes me as somewhat strange, you are both waiting there, you are waiting there for these chaps to arrive, you know that they have gone on an operation to arrest terrorists, when a vehicle finally does arrive, you don't get up to see what is going on, you just carry on talking?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I said, it could have been a matter, it was a short period of time,  it is also possible I could have showered and been dressing as well, at that time.  I used to sleep there that night, so I can't remember exactly the detail what happened at that stage.

MR LAX: Yes, it just seems to me that if you, and if you are expecting people to come in from an operation where people are going to be picked up, and these are the people the whole operation has been about, you are expecting that and you guys just carry on, sitting there until somebody calls you, that seems with respect, somewhat strange.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, Mr Chairman, I don't think it wasn't a matter of minutes before Capt Botha came to Col Taylor, it was probably as they had stopped, he probable came straight to where he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Did you see Ms Khubeka when she got off the vehicle?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: When was the first time you saw Ms Khubeka?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: When I poked my head around the door, Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: How long after you arrived, was that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I would say it could have been a matter of minutes.

MR SAMUEL: Did you notice anything about her, anything unusual or usual, may I rephrase that Chair, did you notice anything about Ms Khubeka?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: All I noticed was that she was a large woman.

MR SAMUEL: Is there anything else?  Before you answer Mr Baker, you are making an application for amnesty, I believe one of the bases for that application would be to tell the truth and to the best of your recollection, tell this Commission what you had seen, am I correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: You are aware of that?

CHAIRPERSON: He said so.

MR SAMUEL: Did you see Ms Khubeka blindfolded?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Why didn't you tell the Chairman about that, I asked you now what did you notice about Ms Khubeka?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, with due respect, I wasn't asked to give a description, he just said what did you notice about her.

MR SAMUEL: Isn't that something noticeable that you should have brought to the attention of this Commission?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Well, I have done so Mr Chairman, on your question.

MR SAMUEL: Is there anything else that you want to tell us about this incident sir, before we start cross-examining you on issues, each issue so that you can tell the truth and the Commission will know exactly what you saw?  Is there anything that you have missed out so far?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, with all due respect, I don't think this is a proper question, if my learned colleague wants to ask him something ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think you can cross-examine, you can ask the questions.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr du Preez, sorry, Mr Botha ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, third time lucky, Mr Baker.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Baker, you say that you saw Ms Khubeka for a few minutes and thereafter, what happened?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I did not say that I saw her for a few minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he saw her a few minutes or a couple of minutes I am not sure what term was used, after the arrival, yes.

MR SAMUEL: And you noticed her thereafter, am I right, after her arrival, you saw her thereafter?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, when I poked my head around the door.

MR SAMUEL: She was alive at that stage?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: And you also told this Commission you saw someone with a black plastic object in their hand?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Now, could you tell this Commission how that was possible if you had gone with Mr du Preez to buy food for your members?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I said that I had poked my head around the door a couple of times to find out if there was any work that we could proceed on, before departing with Mr du Preez.

MR SAMUEL: If I, I will refer you to page 3, paragraph 12 of Mr du Preez' statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you referring to the Exhibits?

MR SAMUEL: Exhibit C.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit C?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 3, paragraph 12?

MR SAMUEL: In this, have you got that?  According to Mr du Preez, he says
"... as soon as, after I had delivered Khubeka to Col Taylor and Col Botha ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, my Afrikaans is not all that strong, but "nadat", you interpret it as "as soon as".

MR SAMUEL: As soon as.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it "after"?  "Nadat" means after.

MR SAMUEL: Be that as it may, I will accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think yes ...

MR SAMUEL: I will accept that, and it was his evidence before this Commission sir, in line with that statement, in line with paragraph 12 that after he had handed Ms Khubeka to Col Taylor and Col Botha, he had departed immediately - so we understood?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can see, I do not see that he said that he left immediately.

ADV BOSMAN: We shouldn't get into semantics, but "nadat" does not necessarily mean immediately.  It may have a wider meaning, one should look at it in the context perhaps.

MR SAMUEL: As the Chairman pleases.  Sir, are you saying, where was Mr du Preez after he had handed Ms Khubeka to Col Botha, do you recall?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot recall where he was exactly at that stage.

MR SAMUEL: Did you notice whether he entered the room whilst this person with the black object was in that room, black plastic object?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, when I put my head around the door, I didn't see him in the room.

MR SAMUEL: Did he indicate to you that he was leaving to go and buy food and that you should accompany him?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, my recollection is that he said that he would be going to buy food and I thought it appropriate to go and buy food for my people as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baker, could you give us an indication as to - you said that you put your head around the door on more than one occasion, approximately how many times did you do that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I think if I recollect, I said a couple of times.

CHAIRPERSON: Over what period of time?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I presume I think not longer than five minutes, between each poking my head in.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Samuel, if you will just allow me, sorry, Mr Chair, now I have lost my train of thought, when Col Taylor left, you did not know that it was Ms Khubeka in that room?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr chairman.

ADV BOSMAN: And when you poked your head around the door, did you know who was in the room?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I did not know who it was.

ADV BOSMAN: But you were expecting a terrorist?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you think that was a terrorist?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I saw a very obese woman sitting there.

ADV BOSMAN: Did this not surprise you?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, in the past, there has been female terrorists as well as male terrorists.  I wasn't sure what they had there.

ADV BOSMAN: As far as you were concerned, it was the terrorist?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you make enquiries?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is when I enquired and they said no, they hadn't arrested the terrorists.

ADV BOSMAN: Fine, thankyou.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, sorry Chairperson, just - you have said a couple of times you poked your head around there, can you try and be more specific?