Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Richardson has made application for amnesty as a result of his being involved in the death of your son. I'm sure the Commission will advise you more fully of the application.  And you're unaware of it, Ma'am?  Mr Richardson will later this week give his evidence and give his testimony.
 Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Hlengiwe?

MS MKHIZE: Just to check one small point for the sake of our records.  You mention that the boys who came to the house indicated that they were supposed to leave the country on that day, I just wanted to check - in view of what was happening at the time -how easy was it for them just to tell you as a strange person - as you indicated that you didn't know them, that they were leaving the country?

MS MKHIZE: The second question relates to a box of matches - it's like in both houses the children's name, both Lolo and Siboniso were written on the box of matches. Was it in big letterheads that you could see, or did the boys show it closely to you?  I just want us to clarify that.

NOMSA SHABALALA: It was just a small box of matches - Siboniso's name was written, as well as Lolo's name and address.
 With regard as to why they could tell that to a total stranger, I could say they had the lever because they were with their mother and they were sent by their mother, Winnie.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]. Thank you.

MR NTSEBEZA: I'll ask this question in Zulu. You have told us that there was a time when you got to your place, and police came to you and told you you should proceed to Pretoria with an amount of R4.000. Did they explain to you as to why you had to carry this money along?

NOMSA SHABALALA: They said where he had been buried, he had probably been buried deep below others or right underneath and it would have been expensive to exhume him.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did they tell you as to whether they knew where he was buried?

NOMSA SHABALALA: They said if I wanted to know I should go to the Pretoria police station, but I never went there.

MR NTSEBEZA: Maybe I should be asking this question from the police.

CHAIRPERSON: We do sympathise with you, we do feel your pain as well as your family's pain and we thank you for the courage that you have shown to come and appear before us, but we do believe that you, as well as the Sono family, know that our aim as the Truth Commission is to find out the truth, and that witnesses like you shall help us in so doing.
 But we also want you to know that no matter what, that we as members of the TRC do sympathise with you, and we pass our condolences to your families, because no matter how they died, but you have lost your loved ones.  And we as the TRC people are trying to rehabilitate the people and let them get through the pain that they have experienced.

NOMSA SHABALALA: Can I ask a question?  As Richardson has already asked for amnesty, I'd like to find out as to where my son has been buried.

CHAIRPERSON: As soon as Richardson renders his testimony, we believe that there will be more information forthcoming. We shall therefore let you know in due course.  We thank all of you very much.  You may stand down.
MRS SHABALALA EXCUSED
 Mr John Morgan.  Thank you very much. Order please.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Morgan, good afternoon, which language will you use?

JOHN MORGAN: I will speak Zulu because I'm Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand up?

JOHN MORGAN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MS SITA: Chairman, my name is Kalpana Sita and I'm representing Mr John Morgan.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you say that a little more slowly?

MS SITA: My name is Kalpana Sita and I'm representing Mr John Morgan.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MS SITA: Okay, Mr Morgan, when did you first meet Mrs Mandela?

JOHN MORGAN: I know Mrs Mandela for more than 35 or 40 years. I know her as a student at Jubilee Centre doing her social works studies, residing next to GP - before she even knew Mandela.  I know her as Winifred Nomzamo Madikezela.  I do trust and hope that she hears all what I'm  saying.
 From there when she came back from Brandfort I asked her for employment - if I could work for her as I knew her very well.  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's give your attorney an opportunity to ask you questions, to lead you.

MS SITA: Where did you start working for Mrs Mandela?

JOHN MORGAN: In Orlando West I was working for Mrs Mandela.

MS SITA: What type of work did you do, sir?

JOHN MORGAN: I was a driver.

MS SITA: Mr Morgan, do you have any knowledge of the Mandela United Football Club?

JOHN MORGAN: I know the fact that she had a football club but I did not know as to what the football club entailed because I've never seen it performing or playing with other clubs.

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

MS SITA: Mr Morgan, do you know how the football club started?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I do not know.

MS SITA: Do you know about the activities of the football club members?

JOHN MORGAN: First and foremost, I will say we left for Southern Life in Commissioner Street to fetch the jersey uniforms for the football club, and we came back with them and she took them to Cape Town to Mr Mandela.  She came back with the word that Mandela was so happy and accepted the club.

MS SITA: ...[inaudible] you went to the Southern Life. With whom did you go to the Southern Life, Mr Morgan?

JOHN MORGAN: There is a store right at the ground floors. When you enter towards your left, there is a shop where we fetched them from.

MS SITA: Mr Morgan, who was with you when you went to the Southern Life?

JOHN MORGAN: Mrs Mandela was present.

MS SITA: Mr Morgan, where did the members of the football club stay, do you know?

JOHN MORGAN: Some resided at her home - there are rooms at the back - and some had quarters in the same premises which was called "Lusaka". That's where they stayed.  And some were with me and some with my sister in Umzimshlope.  I end there.

MS SITA: Was Mrs Mandela involved in this football club?

JOHN MORGAN: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: No English translation.

JOHN MORGAN: No English translation.

MS SITA: Was Mrs Winnie Mandela involved in this football club?

JOHN MORGAN: What do you mean: "taking part"?  Can you please explain.

MS SITA: I want to know what was her involvement with this football club, sir?

JOHN MORGAN: She was the leader, the owner of the club, because she is the one who started it.

MS SITA: Do you have any knowledge of a Disciplinary Committee within the football club?

JOHN MORGAN: It was Jerry Richardson and others who were comrades.

MS SITA: What did they do at this Disciplinary Committee, sir?

JOHN MORGAN: They would hold meetings in that headquarters namely, Lusaka - that's where they would hold their meetings, but I would not be involved.

MS SITA: Sir, can you tell us about the events leading to the death of Stompi. Who told you to go to the "Methodist manse" to fetch the boys?

JOHN MORGAN: Richardson said at first that Mrs Mandela said I should take the minibus and go fetch those boys from the Methodist Centre, and I went to Winnie to find out if she had really said that.  And I took the bus after she said yes - and with the other comrades.

MS SITA: Who was with you in this vehicle, sir?

JOHN MORGAN: Richardson, Xolisa Falati, and her child Mpumi, and Katiza Cebekhulu, and some others, I don't quite remember them.

MS SITA: After you collected these boys, where did you take them, sir?

JOHN MORGAN: I took them to Winnie's house in Diepkloof - Diepkloof Extension.

MS SITA: And what did she tell them, sir?