Special Hearings — Political Party Hearings — 1996-08-20

MR EGLIN: Chairperson, we had hoped that our presentation reflected in a sense, a dilemma, because in spite of our probing in Parliament, we did not have the information on which one could always make a correct judgement on a particular, call it, security operation.
 In the main I must say that we were not in favour of cross-border raids, in particular to the extent that they involved the violation of the territorial integrity of our neighbours and it was in general increasing instability.
 But equally we were confronted with a situation of not having sufficient information.  It was for that reason that I in particular drafted and made the statement, an extensive statement which I did, to try to put this in its perspective.  That when you started pointing fingers or blaming or not blaming, that was not the issue, the issue in the end was how are you going to resolve the conflict inside South Africa.  So it is correct and I suppose parties, most parties and even the ruling party today, will have its doves and hawks, but in the main, we were uncomfortable with cross-border raids. 
 Some of them where we were better prepared with information, we were more forthright, others where we did not have the information, we were more muted.   But time and time we came across and said whatever the merits or demerits of that particular activity, we want to warn that in fact you will not resolve the problem on this basis.  So we have said that to the extent that on occasions there were statements made which were based on incorrect information and assessment of the situation, we regret that that stance was taken at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Tony, you looked like you wanted to add something.  No, okay?

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Thank you, just one point of clarification for me.  Looking at page 16 of the document, and i think it will be fitting to make this request to the DP.  On page 16 you've got a couple of points where you say during this period, the party was active within and outside Parliament.  It is point 4 where you refer to calling on white South Africans to negotiate with their leaders up to the end and the next point you talk about trying to prevent racial polarisation.
 I just want to make a comment about the challenge which is facing the Commission and wondering whether you will be in a position to develop some of the points that you have spoken to, that we keep on getting feedback that there are many people who in this country, who have decided to sit on the fence, so to say.
 Who do not think they want to be involved with the Truth Commission and see themselves as people who didn't perpetrate human rights' violations and there is a constant need that witnesses that we get statements from on a daily basis, would not heal if all the people as our Chairperson said earlier on, that it is very difficult to say one didn't get involved during the apartheid years.
 We have the business sector, we have different social formations, whom we think for people to begin to heal, they will have to critically examine their role and to possibly look to their possible contribution to promote the witness' feeling, so I don't know whether you would have something to say about that.

MR LEON: Certainly Chairperson, and one of the reasons through you to Commissioner Mkhize, one of the reasons for our presence here today, is to show common cause for the very idea which you have just articulated, and we would encourage any relevant party of individual to also bear witness, because quite frankly in the very few days that we've had since making the decision to being here this afternoon, to prepare ourselves for this afternoon, it has caused us to do a lot of self-examination about event which were in the past, not that we wish to forget about them, but they were not at the forefront of our own memory or our daily activities, you know.
 And I think that is very necessary for any organisation particularly one which operates today in the socio-economic or the political fields in South Africa.  I suppose the problem, this is just simply from my own perspective, is some people and some organisations might feel that simply by being here, that they are in the dock as it were.
 And that is clearly from our happy experience  this afternoon so far, it is not yet over, has not been the case and I believe and I have been present on various other occasions, when the Commission met in Athlone and Soweto, that isn't the case, there might be criticism, but they certainly aren't directed towards putting people in the dock.
 And I think that if we are going to have a transparent democracy based on openness, that is not dependant on political actors, as Commissioner Mkhize says, it is dependant on this much named but often not sighted civil society and its components, so I would partly agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: I do want to assure you that one of the things I have stressed in our hearings is that this is not a court.  Nobody is certainly in these public hearings as yet, we want to hear, we want to hear people telling a story, we want organisations to be providing us with perspectives and I think I would make a very bad Judge.
 Do you want to say something?

DR BORAINE: Chairperson, this will be equally brief.  I had a note from our Research Department sent up to me just to elaborate slightly on a request that I made earlier.
 If you look at page 15 and the top of page 16 which refers to sentence, it was almost certainly involved in, that is the NSMS, certainly involved in sanctioning the organisation and arming of vigilante groups.
 Now it may be that that was just a general statement, it may be that you have specific information and one of the things that we really want to try and get to the bottom of, not only because it is happening right now, but because it certainly did happen then, so if you do have any specific information about that, that certainly would be very welcome and finally on page 25, your last point before you started on point 3, you talked about the setting up of front organisations that promoted government propaganda.  
 There has been a lot of speculation about this and information in the media, but again, in your own work and in your own research if you have any specific information, about such front organisations, part of our mandate is to tell the whole story as best we can, we are dependant on obviously our own research, our own investigation and information we get from organisation, political parties and from individuals.  So again, if I can just make a note of that request and perhaps you can come back to us some time, thank you.