Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I can recall when Nthombi came out of the vehicle...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Please refer to her as Khubeka.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: When Khubeka was removed from the vehicle, I grabbed her from behind and lifted her.  I lifted her up and moved to the vehicle, so she was half dragged and half carried to the kombi.

MR VISSER: How far from the Toyota was the kombi?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I don't think it was more than 10 metres.

MR VISSER: Can you give a description of the build of Khubeka?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: She was a large woman and overweight.

MR VISSER: Will you continue please?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I was given instruction by Col Botha to take her to the old S A S Police shooting range at Winkelspruit for interrogation.  At that stage we had used the shooting range as an operation bases.  There were ablution facilities and storage rooms.  We had indeed slept there some evenings and some of the askaris also stayed there during their visit on this occasion.
	It was already dusk when we arrived at the shooting range.  After I had handed over Khubeka to Col Taylor or Col Botha, I departed, for I had other obligations.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr du Preez, what do you mean "after you handed her over to Col Taylor, or Col Botha"?  Did you hand her over to both of them, or one of them, or can't you remember to whom you handed her over?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think both of them were there and I handed her over to both of them, or both of them received her.

MR LAX: But Botha was with you in the vehicle, how could you have handed her over to him if he was with you and in control of the operation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall where Botha was, whether he was in front in the kombi.  I was in the back of the kombi and I held Khubeka under control and what I mean by that is, when we arrived at the camp, I handed her over to them.

MR LAX: Yes, but the way you've written this and the way you've just testified is that when you got there you handed her over to them, one or the other, in other words that they weren't with you.  His evidence is that he was with you in the vehicle.  Do you see the difference?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: What I mean here, Chairperson is that she was no longer under my control.  I did not exercise control over her any longer.

MR LAX: You see his evidence was that more than just you had to subdue her and put her in the vehicle.  You weren't acting on your own.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: There were five of you at least, according to what he told us.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And - so I'm just a little puzzled why you've used this expression that you "handed her over", as if you had formal control over her and then you passed her on to the next level of control.  You'll concede, that's the impression you create here.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: But he had control over all of you because he was the officer in control at the scene and in the vehicle, not so?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's possibly so.

MR LAX: It is definitely so.  He was your Commanding officer at that point.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr du Preez, can you recall today that in your memory, Mr Botha was with you in the same vehicle when you travelled to Winkelspruit?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who was second in Command after Capt Botha at that stage?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I was in command after Botha.

MR VISSER: Very well, will you please proceed?  You say that you handed her over to Taylor or Botha or both and then you wanted to say?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I then departed, for I had other obligations.  With my return later I was informed that Khubeka had died, possibly of a heart attack.

MR VISSER: Can you recall who told this to you?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Botha told me this.

MR VISSER: Very well.  It may then be so that with the drawing up of the statement I had erred, but will you please continue with paragraph 13?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Col Taylor requested Sgt Wasserman and myself to dispose of the body in the vicinity of kwaMashu where it could be found.

MR VISSER: I would like to ask you, was Col Taylor alone when he spoke to you and Wasserman?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, if I recall correctly, at the time of this conversation, Col Taylor, Botha, myself and Wasserman were present when Taylor informed us that we had to dispose of the body.

MR VISSER: Because Mr Botha testified that his recollection is that he requested you to dispose of the body.  It is possible, Chairperson, because there was a discussion.  As far as I can recall the final instruction came from Col Taylor.

MR VISSER: Very well.  If I may refer you to paragraph 17, we will return to paragraph 14 and then what is written here is not strictly speaking correct.  You say
"My motivation to execute the instructions of Col Botha..."
What would be the correct situation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That would be Taylor and Botha, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Will you then proceed at paragraph 14, or rather, "in the vicinity of kwaMashu, to dispose of the body in the vicinity of kwaMashu".

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha's recollection is that he requested to you dispose of the body close to her home.  Can you recall that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Visser, may I just interpose here?  Mr du Preez, did I hear correctly that you said there was a discussion, or did I not hear correctly?  It may be possible that I did not hear correctly.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.  I said that there was a discussion after Botha had informed me that the person, Khubeka, had died.  I, Col Taylor, Wasserman and Botha held a discussion.

ADV BOSMAN: So you confirm that you used the word "discussion"?  So I would want to hear briefly what was the content of this discussion, so we can get clarity about this.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The discussion was that Taylor and Botha informed us that the body had to be disposed of close to her home.

ADV BOSMAN: But that is not a discussion, Mr du Preez, that is an instruction.  I would like to arrive at the discussion.  Did you just receive an instruction, or was there a discussion?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was just said that we had to take the corpse and drop it off close to a place close to her home.

ADV BOSMAN: So that was actually an instruction?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: To what I referred to as a description.

ADV BOSMAN: I do not want to split hairs, but a discussion has a far wider implication.

MR LAX: The way I recorded it and I was listening to your Afrikaans and just translating it myself, but you said that you discussed the matter.  I assumed that was the matter of her death.  Is that right?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Botha told me that she died of a heart attack.

MR LAX: And you said that immediately after that you and Wasserman, Taylor and Botha had a discussion.  Was that discussion about what to do about it?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.  That is where Botha and Taylor told us what to do with the body.

MR LAX: ... (indistinct) that discussion as I understood from your evidence.  That was the impression you gave me, that you and Wasserman, Taylor and Botha all discussed what the next step would be and finally you got an instruction to dump the body.  Have I understood you correctly?