Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: What I said was that the Reverend assaulted me indecently but that actually did not happen.  I felt guilty because he had not raped me, I put that clearly. That is why I said I was confused and I felt somehow threatened and scared.

MR SEMENYA: Yes I am trying to establish that the reason for lying was it because you were confused and mentally and emotionally confused?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR SEMENYA: So what appears in the book is not correct Sir?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know Lolo Sono?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I don't.

MR SEMENYA: Now why do you go at length to describe how Lolo Sono was assaulted?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Because they were calling his name, I do know his name but we are not close or I cannot say we are friends.  It was Richardson as well as the members of the Football Team.

MR SEMENYA: They were calling him Lolo Sono?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: They called him Lolo, but they did not call the surname ...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: Where did you make the connection Lolo must be Lolo Sono then?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I did say beforehand that I did know some of the people by their first names but I did not particularly know their surnames.

MR SEMENYA: So what Bridgeland writes there is not information he obtained from you?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Could you please ask Bridgeland as where he obtains that information.

MR SEMENYA: Now you remember you testified about going in a kombi?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do.

MR SEMENYA: Who was in the car?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was Richardson, Winnie, myself as well as the other members.

MR SEMENYA: What do you mean, and others?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I think there are about two more members in the car.

MR SEMENYA: No, what do you - who was in the car when you went to Mr Sono's house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was myself, Winnie who was driving the car as well as Richardson.  I don't remember the other one but I think there was another person, one or two.

MR SEMENYA: You are sure now you can't recall the other one who was there?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was Lolo Sono.

MR SEMENYA: Oh now you know him.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Because you see that my memory - the way you asked me you asked me as to who else was there ...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: But you just told us that when he is here you won't know that he's Lolo Sono, now you know him.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It's the question, the manner in which you structured the question ...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: No a much more simple question, do you know Lolo Sono?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I don't.

UNKNOWN: Order!  Settle down please.  Mr Semenya I must ask you please now to finish.  I have to respect the cross-examination from other lawyers and you have had just over an hour.

MR SEMENYA: Well Deputy Chairperson I would put no further questions, I don't want to create an impression that cross-examination was complete.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much.

MR KADES: Mr Chairperson, may I on behalf of the Asvat family, Norman Kades.  Mr Cebekhulu might I refer you to the affidavit made by yourself that was spoken of earlier and might I refer you to page 10 paragraph 34, will you please confirm what you have stated in this affidavit, that on the 30th of December, the Friday, Mrs Mandela took you to see Dr Asvat, her personal physician, to seek a medical certificate supporting the rape claim.  That the Doctor pointed out that no evidence was available since too much time had elapsed since the incident claimed had taken place with washing and toilet activities too.
 However you say Dr Asvat gave you a medical examination and some tablets for insomnia.  He asked Winnie and yourself to return in one or two weeks time when he would have the reports in from the general check-up he'd carried out and he would then provide the certificate of rape, the certificate for the rape.
 Did you say that in your affidavit?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I did.

MR KADES: And is that statement correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct.

MR KADES: And did you in fact hear Dr Asvat say that he would provide a certificate for rape, that you had been raped?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I did.

MR KADES: Can we turn the page and look at paragraph 36 on page 11.  You say that the following day Dr Asvat, that was the 31st, you say Dr Asvat was sent for and in fact he came.  You have given that evidence in-chief and you've told us about that.
 Might I then also refer you to page 12 of the affidavit in paragraph 42.  You say there that about three weeks later or so Winnie Madikizela asked you to show two young Zulu boys Dr Asvat's house.  Did you in fact show these two, whom you describe as Zulu boys, where Dr Asvat's house was or where his surgery?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I did.

MR KADES: How did you go to what - you talk of Dr Asvat's house, was it his house or was it the place where he had examined you, his surgery?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was at the surgery, not the house.

MR KADES: Yes.  And how did you go to show these two young Zulu boys where Dr Asvat's surgery was?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: We went in a car.

MR KADES: One of Mrs Mandela's cars or was it a car which was driven by one of the two boys?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: (no audible translation)

MR KADES: Yes, and did you point out the surgery to them?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You go on in paragraph 42 to say that some days later you and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela instructed her lawyer, Krish Naidoo, to go to the police and file a charge for rape and you were told to accompany attorney Krish Naidoo to do this.  Is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: That is correct.

MR KADES: Did you in fact go to the police station at about 11 o'clock that evening and did you make a report to the police?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes we went to the police.

MR KADES: You go further and say that the police asked for a medical certificate and the following day you were told to accompany Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to the doctor in order to obtain the medical certificate, is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct because the police requested some confirmation that I had indeed been raped.

MR KADES: Now did you go in to see Dr Asvat together with Mrs Mandela or did you go alone, did she go alone, what happened?  Firstly did you go into the surgery with her, into the waiting room?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I did go inside.

MR KADES: Yes, and who then went in to speak to Dr Asvat?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was Winnie.

MR KADES: And you remained in the waiting room, is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct.

MR KADES: Yes.  And did you hear - your statement goes on to say, there was a very strong argument with shouts and disagreement and you heard someone, you thought it was Dr Asvat say, "no I am not going to do this", did you say that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I did.

MR KADES: You say that it was not possible to hear the subject under discussion and there was angry shouting with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela saying, "I will deal with you".  Do you confirm that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No, the doctor said he was not going to do that and there was some arguments.  I think thereafter I couldn't pick up what was being said.

MR KADES: Did you say in your affidavit that you heard Mrs Madikizela-Mandela saying "I will deal with you", to the Doctor?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No she did not put it in that way.  I said when we arrived there there was a lot of noise, he was busy saying "I can't do that, I can't do that" and there was this misunderstanding.

MR KADES: And that also is the afternoon that Dr Asvat was murdered, within an hour or two of that visit.  Do you know that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I don't remember whether it's the very same day but we did receive a telephone call that he had been killed.

MR KADES: Yes.  Now did you know, are you able to identify or do you know the names of the two young Zulu boys that you took to show Dr Asvat's surgery?