Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you advise Mr Khumalo of the operations that you conducted on instructions you received from Mr Bongani Gadebe?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not tell him directly but I did inform him of the activities that I carried out.  Mr Gadebe, being a local leader was the one who gave instruction on who had to be killed so if M Z Khumalo arrived I would tell him of my activities.  There was nothing that he didn't know about what I was doing.  I used to get him in his house ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please, please, please, settle down.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, can you wait for the interpreter so that we can hear what your answer is?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

MR HLONGWANE: I am trying to explain briefly that M Z is not just a person of authority but he was very close to me and he knew all my movements, that is what I'm trying to explain.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But were the operations which you conducted in Mandeni known to M Z Khumalo?

MR HLONGWANE: As a soldier there was nothing that he did not know because I reported to him and he knew about the death of ANC people in Mandeni and he was very pleased about my presence at Mandeni.
	What I'd like you to know about M Z is that he is very intelligent.  He can ask you a question just wanting to tease out information from you but my response to this question is that he knew about everything that went on.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now in your testimony you stated that you were paid over and above the salary that you received whilst you were a policeman for killing a big fish, you would be paid something for killing a big fish.

MR HLONGWANE: I don't think the Committee Member understood me very well.  I did not say I was paid but if they were pleased or happy they would not say they were paying me for the death of those people, they were just giving me this money because of their excitement but not because I was being paid for murders.  I've never been paid for killing a person.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So was this gratitude never expressed in monetary terms?

MR HLONGWANE: No, they did not pay me, they were just giving me money.  If I tell you to go pick up Romeo for example and thereafter I will pay you, that is granting payment but that's not how it happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I understand what you are trying to say.  All that I want to elicit is whether the gratitude which they expressed for killing of big fish was never made in monetary terms, you were not given like R50 to say: "Well, you've killed a big fish, we are very grateful Mr Hlongwane, for having done so other than the dinners that you enjoyed for killing a ...[intervention]

MR HLONGWANE: I tried to explain that if you killed someone you would be given anything, you could be taken to hotels.  They thank you in various ways, not just in monetary terms.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, who would take you to the hotel?

MR HLONGWANE: Bebe Biela and Mrs Mbuaze, those are the leaders from eSikhawini.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And from the hierarchy, were you ever given any gifts, like being taken to the hotel by any of your hierarchy?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember - can I continue explaining?  I remember when I went to Umfolozi, I was around a table with Prince Gideon Zulu discussing the killing of people.  We were drinking tea in the morning and his bodyguard and Mutwa were also present.  We were drinking tea, the two of us and he was saying: "You see I didn't know that M Z was really talking about a good soldier like yourself".
	We used to discuss these things.  People like M Z Khumalo and Prince Gideon Zulu would be so pleased and give me whatever they could.

SISI KHAMPEPE: My last question Mr Hlongwane, I want to know whether, when you were given instructions, whether looting was explained as another form of attack which you could launch on perceived ANC persons?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that was exactly the case.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And who explained that?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't know whether I can refer you back ...[intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was that explained by the local leadership or the hierarchy?

MR HLONGWANE: Local leadership but at the time I was not even closer to people like Dalaxolo Luthule and others.  I was also at the time rubbing shoulders with people like Zakele who were members of the Executive.  That is at the time when Zakele ended up fighting leaders at Ulundi because the argument was that Nkethle's Inkatha was doing something else and Mamkhunu's Inkatha was doing something else.  That is the last time I had this experience but we never took anything from people during the time of our attacks.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Khampepe.
	Mr Hlongwane, you've told us about many operations in which you were involved in, from your affidavit it's apparent that you were involved in many more which we will hear about later and that during the course of your stay with the hit squad you killed many, many people and you had no hesitation in killing people if you ordered to do so or if the situation arose, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that on the day of the big rally when we heard there was a big fight and many people died, that you didn't kill anyone that day?

MR HLONGWANE: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: That big rally where Prince Gideon was and it was to be the IFP rally.  You said that: "Fighting went on the whole day and many people were killed.  I didn't kill anybody that day"
How did it come about that you who were very efficient at killing people didn't kill anyone that day?

MR HLONGWANE: I can explain this, how it happened.  What happened there was that my members were at work, many of them that is.  I was now using a different strategy, using people like Teleweni and Amabuto, I was now being commanded, my gun was loaded.
	The first house, if I were to tell you, the first house that was burnt down - on leaving the stadium that is the first house, Mr Willy's house and this was done in the presence of the police.  I was just walking there and I did nothing until people like Romeo held a meeting, that is when I started taking part.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you kill anybody that day?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I did not even draw my gun.  You know I walked around and I kept in cover.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've also stated that you killed people when you were ordered to do so and you've described a number of killings, killing school children at schools and Ginam Mkhize putting his head out the window and shouting: "Catch the first bus" and you killed the person who happened to be close to you, killing family members like the Mbajua's etc.
	Did you at any stage during your career as a hit squad member arrive at the conclusion or believe that the orders or some of the orders that you were receiving were unreasonable and should not be carried out because of their gross unreasonableness and their gross illegality or did you just accept an order without thinking about it at all?

MR HLONGWANE: You would not differentiate between good and bad, you just had to carry out the order and do as it was instructed.  That was a command, that is a matter of life and death because if you did not carry out the command people like Mbambo would kill you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you get to a situation that - you might get to a situation where if you're ordered to kill a whole group of school children, better you die than the group of school children.

MR HLONGWANE: For example, if Dalaxolo gave me an F1 and instructed that I should shoot school children or whatever, I would do exactly as I was instructed.  It was not for me to decide who should killed or not but I just had to carry out the order as it was instructed, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have questions arising from questions that have been put by the panels?

MR WILLS: I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?