Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, we got there to KTC at the squatter camp to other Comrades.  We could buy groceries like millie meal, paraffin, sugar for our Comrades so that they also could have food.  We bought some groceries at the squatter camp where we were staying.

MR BRINK: But even after having bought those groceries there must have been a considerable portion of the R2 000,00 remaining.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: We used that money a lot.  Especially with food and transport as Comrades.  Then the next day there was some money left where we would buy some food.  We could not be at home in the evenings or at night, because that was when we would meet as Comrades.  You would not stay at home during those times especially as Comrades.  We would patrol the area.  We used this money.

MR BRINK: So the money, all the money was used over a period of time to buy food and pay for transport where necessary.  Is that your evidence?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes.

MR BRINK: Now your intention when you went as a group to the farmhouse was merely to steal weaponry or ammunition if available.  Is that not the case?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes.

MR BRINK: Were you a disciplined group?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, we were disciplined.  However, we had to be brave, because of the circumstances.  We had to act strongly.

MR BRINK: But there was no intention of going to this farmhouse to steal clothing, was there, or jewellery or money?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: No, there was no intention, but when we got there we realised that we could use certain things to get weapons.  It is not that we wanted to use these things for other reasons.  We needed weapons no matter what.

MR BRINK: In regard to the charge relating to contempt of court, were you sentenced for that separately or you must have been sentenced to that separately from the sentencing you received in respect of the housebreaking and the murders.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Could you please ask the question again.

MR BRINK: Yes, possibly it is not necessary to put it.  I think it speaks for itself.  You were convicted of contempt of court while you were in prison serving your present sentence.  Is that the situation?

JUDGE WILSON: I do not think he is so sure about contempt of court.  I think let me explain. You were convicted for not giving evidence while you were in prison serving your sentence, were you not?

MR BRINK: He refers to contempt of court in paragraph, on page two of his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BRINK: That is why I raised or mentioned this contempt of court.  He specifically applies for it.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the point you are trying to make.

MR BRINK: No, just to, to, just to make sure that that is what we understand, it was in respect of that which may well become a political objective.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS MR BRINK

JUDGE WILSON: One point I would like to clear up with you and that is what I read from your application for amnesty earlier.  You know the form you filled in?  You know the form?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Yes, I know the form you are talking about.

JUDGE WILSON: Now there you say dealing first with the maid in the house,
"She was shot when she would not stop screaming".
You then go on to say,
"I ran into the garden and was about to tie up the gardener, but after arguing with Philemon Maxam against shooting the gardener, Mr Maxam, who had shot the maid, shot the gardener anyway".
Now that is what you have written down in your form.  Is it true?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Let me explain.  When Philemon Maxam, after he had shot the lady, the gardener was begging not to be shot.  I said that he must not be shot.  I did not argue with Philemon Maxam.  He did not shoot him at the time anyway. I had, I tied him up and the door was already opened.

JUDGE WILSON: Then why did you say that you argued with him?  It is your application.  Did you write it out?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: Application form?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let him have a copy of this application form for, let him see it please.  Can one be made available to him?

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, if I might just perhaps elucidate the Committee.  I am informed by Mr Rothfuchs, who was at Lawyers for Human Rights at the time, that this, Ndinisa's statement was translated from Afrikaans, which he speaks more easily, well from the Xhosa into or into Afrikaans and then, Ndinisa spoke Afrikaans and then translated into English on the form here.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

ADV LOURENS: But he is obviously not an Afrikaans speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  This is not a full ...

ADV LOURENS: No, this is not his, that is not his handwriting.  It is Mr Rothfuch's handwriting in fact.

CHAIRPERSON: So some of it has been lost.  Yes.  Tell him that ...

JUDGE WILSON: He is reading it at the moment.  Let him finish reading it.  Are you reading your application?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndinisa, I think from where I am seated you seem to be reading at a wrong place.  Really, you are reading at a wrong place.  From where I am seated I can see that you do not, you are on the, not on the same page ...

CHAIRPERSON: Look at question ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... as a member of my Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: ... look at paragraph nine "a", little "a" in brackets and roman numeral four in brackets which continues on the next page.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you see where page 16 is?

JUDGE WILSON: Page three of the application form.  He is reading it now.

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: I understand what is written there.  However, perhaps I did not articulate things well, but what I was trying to say, the Commission must be clear that Philemon Maxam, I was, I said to him that we should not shoot this man.  I did not argue with him.  I just said that he must shoot him.  I did not argue with Philemon.  It was written this way.  However, what I was trying to say is I just told him not to shoot.

JUDGE WILSON: See I asked you this, because there is another statement by you, page 21, which differs slightly.  It would seem at first site to be almost a copy, but the paragraph there, it is the second to last paragraph and says,
"The woman began screaming and Mr Maxam then shot her.  I ran into the garden and was about to tie up the gardener when Mr Maxam arrived.  Although the gardener pleaded for his life and I argued against shooting the gardener, Mr Maxam did so anyway".

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: In this sense, Sir, that I said to him we must not shoot him.  At that time when I said he must not shoot him, he did not shoot him.  Even though I said before that we must not shoot him, he later shot him.  In summary, where I was taken from detention from Victor Verster, being taken by investigators from Paarl, they said that I was being charged of two murder cases.  I realised then that this man had been shot at the end.  However, at that point when I said he must not be shot, he was not shot, but got shot at a later stage.  This is in summary.  I said this looking back in that respect.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndinisa, when you spoke to the gardener to ask for a glass of water how far was Mr Maxam from you and the gardener?

CROSBY KOLANI NDINISA: He was quite far, but not that far.  Maybe from where we are sitting, I was talking to the gardener and they were standing by the wall.  That is how far the distance is.  They were talking to the domestic worker.  I was with the gardener.  The window was from where I am sitting to the wall.  That is the distance.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Five paces.

CHAIRPERSON: How much?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Five paces from here to the ...

CHAIRPERSON: To that wall.

JUDGE WILSON: That wall?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Which wall, that one?

CHAIRPERSON: The last wall.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The last one, the last one.  It is the last one.

CHAIRPERSON: It is more than ten paces.

JUDGE WILSON: It is about a cricket pitch, 20 paces.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.