Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

MR COETZEE: So you were not any more involved with Mr Lubowski, his monitoring, anything else like that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No Chairperson.  As I have already testified, with the last excursion pertaining to Adv Omar in Cape Town, when we discussed the bomb, I have just lost the line of the story, could you just repeat your question, I was thinking about something else.

MR COETZEE: I asked you whether there was any further involvement in Adv Lubowski and I think that you wanted to mention the time that he was shot?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, it is only the report that I made telephonically to van Zyl, that I had seen on television news that Adv Lubowski had been assassinated and then we speculated who could be responsible for the assassination later that day, when we rendezvoused.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, firstly may I ask you, were  you given any special remuneration with the exception of your expenses when it came to monitoring Adv Lubowski, when you were tasked by Mr van Zyl?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I was only compensated for my expenses.

MR COETZEE: And according to your information regarding Adv Lubowski, do you know what his connection was with the South African Defence Force?  Did you know if he was an agent, what was the situation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, if Adv Lubowski was an agent of the South African Intelligence system, then all of us on this side of the table, worked for the KGB.  He was framed subsequently and I will tell you why I say this, because I worked very closely with some people subsequently who told me that they specifically framed him.  It only came to my attention when I was at DCC.  It was something that I didn't like, although I didn't report it.
	It was something that I did not approve of, the man had already been assassinated and his name was blackened afterwards.  Originally after the shooting of Adv Lubowski, I followed the story quite closely in the media and in subsequent reports, and I saw that Donald Aitchison had been arrested.  I knew immediately that it was Donald Aitchison whom I had recruited in Johannesburg.
	I had various discussions with Calla Botha who was my blood-brother and we speculated regarding what could have taken place there.  Then I saw at a certain stage that the Defence Force jumped out, and I think it was Magnus Malan himself, on national television and said that Adv Lubowski was a Military Intelligence informer and I simply could not believe it.
	Except that it didn't make any sense to me, for us to follow this man around all over the show, and make videos of his home and his movements, the videos were made in order to kill him.  I am not saying that I was indirectly involved, I was directly involved.
	I think that there was also information at the disposal of the media that there was a bank account into which deposits would have been made, and all of that was false.  I didn't know it at that stage.
	However, it puzzled me and it bothered me.  Later when I was recruited by DCC and I was brought into contact with Mr Verster, we knew each other due to our joint prison sentences for murder, we were in prison together, we were friends, there was a bond between us.  After I had been working at DCC for quite a while, they introduced Mr Verster to me within my specific system where I was functioning.  They brought him in as my co-ordinator, he was my direct boss.

CHAIRPERSON: You are saying Mr Verster, which Mr Verster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is Righ Verster, not Joe Verster.

CHAIRPERSON: Righ?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Righ Verster and I shared an interest in sports, we also shared various other interests, we did the same work, we had been in prison together, we had suffered together, we had exercised together in the past, so there was a special bond between us which was separate from the DCC activities.  We were social with each other.
	At the same time of my involvement with DCC and the brothels and the porn palaces and the escort agencies and the night club life that I led, I also established private systems by which I was the head of security of eight or nine night clubs, brothels and perhaps five or six casino's as well.  I placed the bouncers there, I visited the places daily, I addressed security problems, conducted sensitive investigations, I paid off the police who had to be paid off to prevent police raids.  I identified the crooked cops, I gave them their monthly pay.  I contacted members of the City Council who might want to close these places down, therefore I was involved there on a daily and nightly basis.
	The specific incident took place, I was already involved with cocaine at that stage, I and some of the prostitutes at one of the upmarket brothels in Morningside, Sandton, I already had shares in the business, 20 percent shares, I had established an office for myself there, I did my own thing from that point.   	Mr Verster was invited by me there, for the first time and a whole new world opened up to him.  One couldn't keep him away from there after he had been there for the first time.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, I think if we refer to Mr Righ Verster, let us just refer to Righ Verster as such, so that there isn't any confusion between him and Joe Verster.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I understand.  And so it happened that we had one of these cocaine parties where Mr Righ Verster was present, and he wanted to try this stuff as well, because it made everybody so friendly.
	Then I said to him "If you try this stuff, you won't stop".  He had already had a few drinks, so did I, and naturally we wanted to impress the ladies there, and he got onto cocaine.  That is why I recall it so specifically, because on that particular evening, he and I were chatting about work, and we were quite high and we stumbled onto the topic of Mr Lubowski.  That is when he disclosed his entire South-West involvement to me.
	Before he became involved with DCC internally, he said that he and Price and a certain Clive, who I later also met at DCC, who was a former counter-intelligence spy, specifically performed work regarding Anton Lubowski.  They had tried to recruit him, but he was not recruitable.
	Then I said to him "but this man was allegedly an informer" and he said "no, the CCB caused all the shit, and we made him an informer".   If he was an informer, he is an informer posthumously.  That status was allocated to him posthumously.
	And then I laughed, because we agreed that after his death, he was made an informer, and then I said "but how is that possible, because I have read things in the paper about bank accounts and what not", and he said "listen, if you are not an agent, we will make you one and it doesn't really matter who you are".
	At a certain stage, he mentioned to me that Mr Marina Chiavelli, the former millionaire had passed away and he said that Chiavelli was also one who was supporting the ANC and giving them money.
	It was a joint National and Military Intelligence operation to break him financially.  He said "you saw what happened to him", and then he said "Douw Steyn from Auto & General was next on the list".  That was the discussion that took place regarding Mr Lubowski as an agent.

MR VAN ECK: Sorry Mr Chairman, could he just repeat that portion?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Barnard, if you could just repeat what you have said from - just the discussion, from the time that you said he was made an informer after his death and what happened to Mr Chiavelli and the other person from Auto & General, if you can just repeat that please.