Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

CHAIRPERSON: You mean having regard to the application of Mr Mologwai?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I don't know whether it relates to the same, this incident which Mr Tuis is applying for, when I looked at it, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the first thing we notice is that the incident of robbery and housebreaking, which Mr Mologwai is applying for, occurred on the 10th of the 10th, or the 1st of the 1st, I'm not very certain, but the year is definitely 1993 and the one Mr Tuis now is applying for is of the 3rd February 1993, which is murder and robbery.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chair and furthermore it happened at Brandfort, this one is at Clearspruit in Rogaie at Mount Pleasant farm and also when I look at the people who were involved are different from Mr Tuis, it does not come on the picture with regard to Mr Mologwai's application.  He was involved with Paulus Makuvu and Jackson Ntozini and one person was injured in this one, Jacomina van Tonder and this was two people were killed, two whites were killed, that's why I'm saying Chairperson I'm not sure whether ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why I made inquiries Mr Mbandazayo is that if we look at page 6, 2.3, this is what Mr Tuis says when he was asked for further particulars
"The persons who were with me during the operation, other than Dlogodlo who gave orders, were Petrus Pitso Peleo who is in Groenpunt Correctional Services and Macdonal Mologwai, also known as Thebogo who is also in Groenpunt prison."
According to them they did apply for amnesty, but they have not heard anything up to now.  What is not clear from what you are saying Mr Tuis is that it was the same incident, merely that they have applied for amnesty but whether it's of the same incident, you are not also clear about that and I did research through Ms Mtanga on that basis.  You applied whilst in prison, wasn't that?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see their applications handed in?  Did you see their applications, that is of Peleo and Mologwai.  Well let's talk of Peleo.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Adv Mothembo helped us to fill the application forms and we were three in 1995 in prison.  We were three when we were preparing our application.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was to submit those applications?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I did not know, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps let me ask you this way.  After Mr Mothembo assisted you, to whom did you give those applications?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: He's the one who filled these forms on our behalf, then he informed us that he will hand them over.

CHAIRPERSON: So it compounds the problem, isn't it so?  Because we definitely have heard of Mologwai and yourselves.  We don't have that one, we've cross-checked on Thursday when I was first given these documents to read.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I explained that I was informed that Mologwai's application is there, then how do you work if Mr Peleo's application does not appear?  He appears as a witness in this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: We will hear him as a witness and I suggest to you and you suggest to Mr Peleo that he once again takes it up with the Amnesty Committee, but it is not for you to do so because your application is before us.  Do you follow?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: It's okay Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, as an applicant you cannot speak on behalf of the other applicant about his application, you speak about your application.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I'm not saying I was speaking on their behalf, I'm just saying we were three, therefore I was just asking about that, not that I was speaking on his behalf.  It was just a question to get clarity on the issue.  It is clear now, it will come when it comes, therefore I will go on with my own application.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me inform you this way, that I have a discretion.  Let me hear you and because now we all know that the application is not before us, this Committee or this Panel will take a decision after we have heard you, how we take it forward with Mr Peleo after he has also testified on your behalf. Okay?  I have that discretion.  Mr Mbandazayo will explain further to you what I mean by that discretion.  Are we ready to proceed Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.  Chairperson, for purposes of this hearing, I will use the affidavit at page 6.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Tuis, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Explain to me what is an affidavit, please explain to me what an affidavit is.  I would not say yes, I agree to the contents and yet not understanding what an affidavit is.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tuis, I'll request your legal representative to show you page 8, 9, 10, 11 up to 14, that is the hand-written portion of what is contained on page 6.  Do you see that?  And if you look at page 13 there's your signature there, is that your signature rather?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was done before a Commissioner of Oaths, in other words like I did to you now and say you swear that what you would tell us is the truth and nothing else is the truth and what the Commissioner of Oaths would do is to say to you:  "Are the contents of this affidavit true and have you read through them?"

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That's how it happened when you wrote these pages or whoever wrote them for you and you signed them?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That constitutes what we call an affidavit and if you can have regard to page 8, you'll see right at the top, it's written affidavit, that is the contents of this now for easy reference, Mr Mbandazayo is going to page 6, which is typed, so that we don't further diminish the value of my glasses by going through this handwriting.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is contained in page 6 is word for word of the hand-written, do you agree with that, or at least believe me because I've looked at it closely and hence it's put in this bundle for everybody to see and read if it corresponds, so it's word for word, I give you my word for that.  Okay?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I believe you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So you know what an affidavit is now, I believe?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I now know what an affidavit is.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Tuis, do you still remember then making this affidavit or statement to the member of the TRC investigating unit?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So do you confirm that this then affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Yes.