Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   Absolutely.  They always call it the sweeper.  In the Harms and McNally Commission it was very clearly General Krappies Engelbrecht, who was incorporated onto the Commission - in fact after the week and a half of evidence at the McNally Commission Paul van Dyk came to my house and told me that they have all testified that Almond is lying, that the Commission is starting to believe it, and if myself and the man up top - now they were referring to Vendaland, where David Tshikalanga lived - if we would now just also deny it will all be over, that'll be it.  And the man that informed them of it was Engelbrecht, Krappies Engelbrecht kept them informed.  Krappies Engelbrecht then went on with Brigadier Herman du Plessis - at the time of the Sizwe Khondile murder he was Captain du Plessis.  He was as a sergeant I think also involved in the Biko murder, Sergeant du Plessis.  The two of them, together with General Ronnie van der Westhuizen, came with the Harms Commission to London as the chief investigators of the Harms Commission.  So obviously there with the specific purpose to see where things are going to, and then to see to it that it does not get out, and it gets covered up.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So the tendency or the practice to engage in cover up was a fairly common phenomenon within your operations, the sphere of your operations.

WITNESS:   Absolutely, Mr Chairman, and I might just demonstrate this by saying that although the Security Police family made only out a

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /small clique

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: small clique of the broader police family, and then I am talking about 3-4%, one will always see that this little family was always in top positions in the police.  Like, for instance, General Mike Geldenhuys, who was Security Police Chief, a short stint with National Intelligence, and then Commissioner of Police.  After him General Johan Coetzee, who was Security Police Chief, became Commissioner of Police.  After him General Johan van der Merwe, who was Security Police Chief, became Commissioner of Police.  And as CID Chief, National CID Chief, it went exactly the same.  General Verdi Zietsman was Security Police Chief and then Chief of the CID.  After him General Stan Schutte, that was Security Police Chief, then became Chief of CID.  So, although they then hear of a murder scene like the Mxenge murder, I can promise you that they knew exactly where it came from, but they would then don on their CID cap and strictly stick according to the rules, the theoretical rules, and see to it that they don't use their skills of the past, and their experience of the past of the Security Police family, to rather expose this murder, but rather use that to cover up this murder.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

MR DE JAGER: My colleague, Judge Wilson, asked you for the reasons why Mr Mxenge was murdered, and he put to you that he've done his work as an attorney and that was the reason, because he assisted people.

WITNESS:   Basically, in the words of the time, he assisted the enemies of the country, and African National Congress, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: In legal representations.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR DE JAGER: Was that the only reason that was advanced to you?  	/---   That's

MR DE JAGER: ---   That's correct, that they were trying to build up a case and just couldn't get him in because he was sticking strictly according to the law, and he was a thorn in the flesh, and we have to get rid of him, that's correct.

MR DE JAGER: So they in fact told you that he was - there was nothing against this man, he was acting according to the law, and they couldn't make out a case against him.

WITNESS:  They brought it over in the way that he received funds from overseas from the ANC, which I didn't know whether that was legal or illegal, and with that funds he was orchestrating or assisting ANC cadres that came into the country in their court cases, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: And that was the only reason given to you?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?

MR DE JAGER: And that was the only reason given to you why you should arrange for him to be killed?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: And that was the only reason you had in mind when killing him?

WITNESS:   It wasn't a specific reason, it was that it was decided by higher authority that he should be eliminated, and I didn't question that and I just did that, I saw to it that it got done, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: So as far as you yourself was concerned you didn't question any of the orders, you didn't make up your own mind whether there was a political motive or not?

WITNESS:   No, not at all, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: So as far as you're concerned you didn't kill him for a political motive?

WITNESS:   No, the specific ... (intervention)

MR DE JAGER: You only killed him because you were ordered to do so.

WITNESS:   No.  The political motive behind it was

MR DE JAGER: /because he

MR DE JAGER: because he served a stint on Robben Island, he was actively sentenced under the Terrorist Act at the time, that he was an active supporter of the ANC and the enemy of this country, and that was the political - and assisting them to get off the hook in criminal trials.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee, why were the dogs poisoned, Mr Mxenge's dogs?

WITNESS:   Mr Chairman, it was to leave the decision for the place of the actual murder in the hands of the operatives, to leave a more wide open options.  You could either do it at work if the occasion was right, it was late enough, if it was deserted enough where he parked his car, or you could have done it on his way home, or then, if he stops at home and gets out of the car, you could do it just there at the car.  And I believe, according to hearsay evidence, that that is in fact the way that his wife was killed later on in years.  But that was so if they would decide to kill him at home then they would not be attacked by his dogs.

UNKNOWN: You took the decision that the dogs should be poisoned, isn't it?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: At that stage had you decided on how Mr Mxenge was going to be killed?

WITNESS:   Yes, it was with knives, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, it was of cardinal importance that the killing was to appear to be a robbery.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

UNKNOWN: That it's not connected at all to the police.

WITNESS:  That's correct, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Why then were the details of the murder left to your underlings, Almond and Nofomela, to work out?

WITNESS:   They should just - the factor - what was left to them is the right place to decide to do the murder, and it was

UNKNOWN: /discussed

UNKNOWN: discussed beforehand that he should be killed with a knife or knives.

UNKNOWN: But you must at best have given serious thought to how the killing was to be conducted.

WITNESS:  That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And at the least discussed with your underlings the modus operandi for the execution.

WITNESS:   Well, as I said, he should be killed with knives, and of his belongings should be sort of taken to make it look like a robbery.  That was discussed, yes.

UNKNOWN: Did it not appear to you that your underlings may actually carry out the execution in a clumsy way, and thereby leaving traces that would connect the killing to the police?

WITNESS:   It was a possibility.  That's why I told them specifically to dress in old clothes that I can take hold of after the murder and destroy, to make sure that they wear no watches with serial numbers on that could fall off their arms during a possible struggle, or any pocket material, like cigarette boxes with numbers on, or matchboxes with numbers on, but to make 100% sure that they had nothing on them, and whatever they were dressed in I took hold of until such time as it was reported to me that nothing at all, no traces, were found at the scene.