Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now can I refer you back to your affidavit?  There are two portions firstly at paragraph 10 and you say there
	"We withdrew" and this in respect of the Parktown North incident in which Mr Jacobs was murdered.
"We withdrew and on our arrival at Naledi we surrendered everything to the commander."
And then you set out there what you surrendered and then at paragraph 16 where you deal with the armed robbery on the Stanton household, you say:
"We drove out of Parkview to Naledi where we offloaded the goods and surrendered everything to the commander"
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you confirm that that is what happened?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do confirm.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And I presume you say that to show that there was no personal gain on your part in respect of these two incidents, is that correct?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm asking whether you make those two statements, paragraph 10 and paragraph 16, to demonstrate on of the criteria for amnesty and that criteria is that there was no personal gain, in other words you were not enriched?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: No, that was no personal gain because we took orders and instructions, that is why we handed them over to the commander, we never took them for our own personal use or personal gain.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you to page 42 of the bundle of documents?  That's again the judgment in your criminal trial and at about line 12, do you have it Mr Nkabinde?  It's towards the end of the sentence, it says
"Accused 1 and 2 were detained in the Smithfield Hospital"
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And I'm correct that you were accused number 2 in that matter?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Alright, it says
"Accused 1 and 2 were detained in the Smithfield Hospital and accused 3 in Bloemfontein.  Accused 1 and 2 were found in hospital in possession of goods taken in the Stanton robbery."
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So it's not correct that you handed over everything to your commander, you kept things for yourself?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We repossessed these items and the items that we repossessed were from the settlers who had come into our country without any possessions and when I got injured at that time, it was raining and I told my commander that I needed something to wear.  He gave me a jacket, I wore the jacket when we were being taken to Smithfield and when we got to Smithfield they gave me or they said I should undress and I realised that this jacket had some jewellery inside it.  These are the things we had given to the commander before.  We had not taken them for ourselves, we had given them to the commander and that lumber jacket was given to me by the commander when it was raining.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you see Mr Nkabinde, that's exactly the same thing that you told the criminal court and I want to refer you further on, on page 42 and it's at about line 25.  The final paragraph at that page.  It says accused one and two were detained, it was Smithfield Hospital.  A nurse, Mrs Pansi, found jewellery under the pillow of accused number two.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is not true, these are the things that came out of the lumber jacket that was given to me by my commander.  I undressed and took all the items and gave them to the nursing sister.  There were no items or jewellery items that were found underneath my pillow and I wouldn't deny that if it happened because I've come here to speak the truth, I've admitted to certain things which you did not have any knowledge of.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So whatever the nurse says it's ...(intervention)

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is a blue lie.  These are the people who were being told by the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad as to what to say.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm not going to take that any further Mr Nkabinde.  I can take you to page 50 of the record, or 50 of the bundle of documents.  About the middle of the page line 14, it's the paragraph which begins at "Johannesburg according to Kok", do you have that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: "Johannesburg, according to Kok, accused one indicated a willingness to point out the residences of accused two and three.  Nothing was found at accused two's residence or at the residence of accused one.  Accused one then took them to another address where either the accused's father and/or Kopane lived and there accused one pointed out a distinctive pink Blaupunkt Radio, shown on Exhibit F6 and identified by the  Stanton's as theirs.  The party also went to accused three's house as pointed out by accused one, where Tiedt found certain jewellery."
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So not only did you have jewellery in your possession but so did members of or family members of the people or family members of members of the gang also have jewellery in their possession as well as a radio.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It's the first time I hear it, my family was never found in possession of any jewellery whatsoever and whatever we retrieved or robbed from the said parties, were not taken to our respective families but were given to the commander.  Now what you are saying is totally new to me.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It's new, does that mean that you agree with it or that you disagree with it?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I do not agree with it because I never saw it and the fact that there was some jewellery that was found at my home is absolutely not true because whatever we took from these settlers were given to the commander.  My family never got anything out of this operation.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Just on that point Mr Nkabinde, when you say the goods were handed over to the commander, were they handed over with everybody present?  Did you hand it over at the same time in each other's presence, to Monde Gadebe?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: From the operation we take all the items, all the goods and placed them in the possession of the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm saying when you did that were you all together at the same place at the same time or did you do it and then when you weren't there Mr Mofokeng did it and then later somebody else did it or did you all do it at the same time?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We would do it all at the same time when we were coming back from the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, would grant me a short opportunity, I just want to see if there's anything further in the amnesty application itself, the prescribed form, that I want to cover?
	Can I just clarify or confirm two things.  Firstly, at the time of these two incidents your instructions you say came from Monde Gadebe, is that correct?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And the object of both incidents, you say, was to repossess primarily arms for the struggle?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Mr Nkabinde, two operations, were they planned at a particular meeting?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Our commander came to us and informed us that he said certain information with regard to arms so we should prepare ourselves to embark on the operations.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll repeat myself.  Were they planned at a meeting?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes we met and the commander pointed out that there was some information that he got to the effect that there were some guns at a certain household so we should prepare ourselves to embark on the operation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I take it there was a meeting, where was the meeting?