Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-16

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly we can take a short adjournment.  If you can just let us know as soon as you are available to start again.  We'll take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Chairperson, on behalf of the Ootshuizen family, I'm calling Mr Ockert Andries Cornelius Oosthuizen.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that your full names are Ockert Andries Cornelius Oosthuizen?

ANDRIES CORNELIUS OOSTHUIZEN: (sworn states)

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Oosthuizen, is it correct that you are the father to the deceased, Cornelius Oosthuizen?

ANDRIES CORNELIUS OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct, yes.

MR MAPOMA: Is it also correct that you have heard the evidence of the applicants for amnesty?

ANDRIES CORNELIUS OOSTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And would you like to say something to the Committee regarding the application?

ANDRIES CORNELIUS OOSTHUIZEN: I would very much like to put my view across to the Committee.  Me as the father of the deceased and also his mother, we do not really believe the evidence which was given and we cannot forgive them for what they've done.
	Firstly, Mr Makhura alleged that he was in control of the firearms and also that they never left the main road, that they were dropped at the main road, and where the murder took place it's about five kilometres from the main tar road.  
	The accused number 2, Fokazi accuses the South African Police of corruption and bribing.  He alleges that the evidence which was used against them, that person was offered money.  
	Now according to the statements further on, I also made the inference that the accused is deceased.  Now I would like to know from them when did he die, in which year.
	Accused number 3, Thozamile says that the vehicle was not at a standstill, he was busy driving after he changed his number plates.  As far as the information is concerned which was given to us the parents, was that this vehicle stood at one place the whole time and the people phoned the police and said that there were suspicious looking people standing there the whole day.  He also alleges that the police shot at them but I was informed that my son did not even have a weapon on him and I was also informed and I understand and I made the inference during the statements the police person who was injured, they took his weapon after he fell down, they took it out of his holster and they ran away with it.
	He also said that they never drove on a gravel road.   As I've mentioned, where my son was shot was about five kilometres away from the tar road, so they had to drive on a gravel road.
	Furthermore, I've received information to the extent that it seemed like a war which took place there, where all the shells were found.
	Then the witness who alleged was offered bribe money by the South African Police, I would like to know when this witness died and if it's in our new constitution why was a post-mortem not done and why are the findings not made known.
	I would also like to know why small Herman not come to give his testimony, did he withdraw himself thereof of is he not capable of doing.  I also want to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What was that last name?

ANDRIES CORNELIUS OOSTHUIZEN: Simon who gave evidence.
	As parents, I would also ask our government and ask them in the circumstances in which we live now and considering the fact that we are a community which must build up our country not break it down, I want to ask them is it not possible for them to bring back the death penalty.  It doesn't matter is found guilty, it doesn't matter which race or colour but that they should bring back the death sentence so that we have something to deter people from committing crime.
	From these accused I would like to know, and I want to look them in the eye and ask them: "Do you know what you have done to us.  A child, he was not even 21 years old and a person who did everything for the interests of this country, who went out without a firearm to you, he did not have a chance to say one word to you but you immediately started shooting at these two children and now you come and you make this kind of talk and you're not telling the truth.  Do you know how that feels, do you know what you are doing to us?  Me and my wife were at the point of a divorce.  It's nothing to lose a parent but to lose a child is very hard.  And if it was in the interest of this country I still could have accepted it but it was not in the interest of our country, it was robbery.  It doesn't matter what you say today but what I've inferred it's about robbery and I accept it as robbery.  
	And I want to ask you this, did you find peace with God, with our God who gave us this country and who gave us this life.  We are not justified to take life.  What are you going to do when you leave here, are you going to continue breaking down this country or are you going to stand together with us so that we can build up this country?  That is my question to you.  I can forgive you with my mouth but in my heart I cannot do that.
	As far as my information is concerned you were not telling the truth, you only spoke in such a way in order to free yourselves.  That is all, Chairperson, that I would like to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Oosthuizen.  Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MHLABA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi?

DR TSOTSI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Oosthuizen.

ANDRIES CORNELIUS OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Sir.  Can I just ask, I would like to know the date when that witness died because otherwise it would bother me.  If you can just pass that information through to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you heard that we asked one of the applicants, Mr Mofokeng, if he didn't know the date but I'll ask Mr Mapoma if he can perhaps find out from the others who weren't specifically asked that question and then we will let you know.  And I'm sure it's determinable, even if they don't know the information we will be able to determine that.  I'll ask him to make enquiries and if he's successful to inform you of that.

ANDRIES CORNELIUS OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mapoma for the question of the victims, you've got the details of the Oosthuizen family etc., for referral in terms of Section 23?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Oosthuizen.

ANDRIES CORNELIUS OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is that the conclusion of the oral testimony?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, that's the conclusion then.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, are you in the position to make submissions?