Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MR HATTINGH: No, Mr Chairman, 19.8(b) I believe is a section which tells us that at the stage when a public hearing like this commences all the documentation, everything, the whole box of information obtained during the course of investigations and applications should be made available to us.  That's what it deals with in 19.8(b).  I believe that the section dealing with the privilege comes later.  If you'd just give me a moment to find that.

MR SANDI: I'm not sure if you'll find an independent section in the Act that deals specifically with privilege.  I think it keeps on cropping up in the context of the other sections of the Act, like the one I've just pointed out.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, when we have regard to section thirty one (31), it tells us about compellability of witnesses and inadmissibility of incriminating evidence given before a Commission.  I'm just reading the heading of this section.  I still have to read it and see what the section tells us, section thirty one (31).

MR SANDI: Are you talking about section 301, Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thirty one (31).  Mr Chairman, I must admit that I need a little more time to go through this.  I'm a bit ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for a while.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, I would appreciate that.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MRS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, if you will allow me.  Yesterday, on behalf of Mr Msibi, Mr Prinsloo addressed you.  I have received instructions, because he's also an implicated party, to represent him.  I would just like to place that on record.  A-L-P-H-E-U-S.  Msibi, M-S-I-B-I.

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, may I also be permitted just to correct something.  Yesterday at a question directed by you when the Goldstone Commission was held, I had stated that it was during 1991 finishing in 1992.  It was actually one year later.  The Commission commenced on the fifth (5th) of February 1992 and finished in the beginning of 1993.  I just wanted to correct that.

MR NKOSI: Mr Chairman, my name is Lucky Solo Thembisa Nkosi, an attorney of Piet Retief.  I have received instructions from Mrs Jessie Cilo to come and appear on her behalf before this Commission today and my instructions are to place it on record that Mrs Cilo does not object to the application that is made before this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Cilo is the mother of who?

MR NKOSI: Mrs Cilo is the mother of the deceased Lindiwe Nkosi and that of Thembi Nkambule.

CHAIRPERSON: You indicated yesterday that you represented the next of kin of A Nkosi.  Which one would that be?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, we actually indicated Lindiwe Nkosi, the same person for which there was now somebody put on record.  We did receive instructions from Jessie Cilo and she signed our power of attorney and it was just moments before we now started that I was advised that there was in fact someone new on the scene.  Our instructions have not been terminated, but I hear now that or just minutes before we started I heard that she in fact instructed another attorney and that she is not opposing the application pertaining to her daughter apparently.

CHAIRPERSON: Can she come forward.  Are you Mrs Jessie Cilo?  She can listen there.  She can listen on - ask her to listen to that.  Are you Mrs Jessie Cilo?

MRS CILO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see the gentleman sitting in front of you?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on, Chairperson.

MRS CILO: I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: The gentleman sitting in front of you towards your right, do you know him?  Mrs Cilo, can you hear me now?

MRS CILO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see the gentleman sitting next to you on your right?  No, that one there.

MRS CILO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know him?

MRS CILO: I don't know him.

CHAIRPERSON: I've been informed now that you have an interest in this application.  Do you understand that?

MRS CILO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I've also been informed that you have instructed Mr Nkosi who's sitting at the end of the table there where you are, is that correct?

MRS CILO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And he has told us that you have asked him to inform us that you have no objection to amnesty being granted in this matter, is that correct?

INTERPRETER: She doesn't understand.

MRS CILO: Would you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I've been informed by Mr Nkosi that you have told him to tell us that you have no objections to amnesty being granted in this matter, is that true?

MRS CILO: That's true.

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm also informed that you are an interested party too in this matter because Lindiwe Nkosi and Thembi Nkambule were your daughters or are your daughters.  One was your daughter and the other one not.

MRS CILO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I see I misunderstood it.  While you may be a mother, you are also the mother of Lindiwe or was the mother of Lindiwe Nkosi, is that correct?

MRS CILO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it is in respect thereof that you have no objections to amnesty being granted, is that correct?

MRS CILO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You can be seated.

MR NKOSI: May I address the Committee, Your Honour?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkosi, have you got anything else to add?

MR NKOSI: Nothing, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: You are then excused.

MR NKOSI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, what is your position now in respect of representing that lady?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, you will remember that when we indicated which of the victims or which of the incidents we represent, we indicated the incident where Chris Ngwenya died, Lindiwe Nkosi died as well as Thembisile Eldah Nkambule was injured, one and the same incident.  Now, it now appears that the instruction that we had with respect to Lindiwe Nkosi has been terminated, and we accept that, but we then remain on record with regards to the balance of the victims.  All I need to do obviously is to speak to this person and find out whether her instructions with regard to Chris Ngwenya remains or whether we need to ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... that as well.  Was it the same person who gave you instructions?

MR HATTINGH: That's correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we get tangled into any other issues, let's find out from her then as well.  Are you talking about Jessie Cilo?

MR HATTINGH: Ja, the very same person, Jessie Cilo, who gave the instructions with regard to Chris Ngwenya, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Before I recall her, she gave you instructions in respect of Ngwenya, Lindiwe Nkosi, anybody else?

MR HATTINGH: Only the two of them, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we ask Mrs Jessie Cilo to come back please.  Mrs Jessie Cilo, sorry to call you again.  Did you know Mr Chris Ngwenya?

MRS CILO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know him?

MRS CILO: He was in love with my daughter.

CHAIRPERSON: And your attitude towards amnesty in this matter does that apply in respect of Chris Ngwenya as well?

MRS CILO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow.

MRS CILO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you have no objections to amnesty being granted in respect of Lindiwe Nkosi, correct?

MRS CILO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Does the same apply in the case of Chris Ngwenya?

MRS CILO: I'm not involved in Chris Ngwenya's matter.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY COMMITTEE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Hattingh, it looks like your mandate never existed.  So, it can't be terminated.  Anyway, I don't know what we can do about it now.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, yes.  All I can say is that we did receive the instructions, written instructions, but I'm not fighting this in any manner.

CHAIRPERSON: I take your point.  I think it's a good attitude to adopt.  She said in public that she's not here for Chris Ngwenya and therefore whatever she signed before is of no force.  Shall we proceed on that basis then?  Is that all with the interlocutory incidents.  Let's get back to the original argument then.