Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: The cover story would be if one approached someone with a false name or false request in order to obtain information from people, it was part of my work.

MR VISSER: And also if one wanted to discredit somebody by distributing false information about the person?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In other words you now are referring to so called lies which you have told or your dishonesties outside the courts?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: But now in the legal system, in court, did you often tell lies there during evidence?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you tell the Committee how many times you've done so?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, with the post-mortem of Brian Mamela I did indeed do so.

MR VISSER: And in this matter?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: This is this matter.

MR VISSER: Oh, Mamela, I thought he said Mamela, I'm sorry I misunderstood him.

MR VISSER: You were also questioned about the fact that you knew that this action was illegal, that is so, is it not so?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And that is why you request amnesty?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And it should it be that you have acted under a direct order which was illegal would you in the spirit of those circumstances had not obeyed such an instruction?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Nothing further thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Botha, how many people were in your car at the time when you were chasing this car?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was only myself and Gen Steyn, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he sit alongside you in the front side?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, he was passenger on the left hand side of my vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have a gun?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I don't think he had a weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't know whether he fired at this car as well?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No, he definitely didn't fire.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to put to this witness?

MS THABETHE: No Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Botha, you spoke - let me just get this right, you were the first person to start shooting in this incident?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: You didn't hear any shots before you started firing at the back left tyre?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: When I started shooting there had already been a shooting, a fraction of a second.

MR LAX: Sorry, say that again please?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: From the moment that I started shooting there was just a very, very short moment afterwards when I heard the next shots being fired.

MR LAX: The way I heard it translated was as if you shot immediately after, a fraction after, but in fact it was the other way around?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: And you distinctly, the impression I gain from your evidence was that you distinctly saw the flashes of firearms on the right hand side?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: And that's how you thought you were being fired at?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now did you see any flashes on your left hand side?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: They may have been there but you paid no attention?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, my attention was focused on the vehicle.

MR LAX: The thrust of my question is this, is that if there had been shots on your left hand side, you were behind the vehicle at this stage, the kombi and the suspect vehicle were ahead of you?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: If there had been any shots from your left hand side ahead of you, you would have seen those flashes, you would have noticed them, it was dark after all?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes it was dark and as I said there were also members of the public amongst us so it was a very difficult situation and after the first shots were fired you were then quite tense and things happened very quickly.

MR LAX: Yes, I'm talking about the likelihood of you seeing shots ahead of you on the left hand side?

ADV BOSMAN: I can't recall that I saw flashes.

MR LAX: You certainly didn't hear shots coming from that direction?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: There were many shots being fired and it's not possible, not easy to determine whether a shot which was quite close to you comes from a particular direction.

MR LAX: Okay.  Now just one other small aspect that Mr Visser dealt with in re-examination, he said to you that you associated yourself with the order.  What order was that?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, if I may, please forgive me but I said even if there was an order which we don't say because there wasn't an order in fact given to shoot but it was suggested, Chairperson, that there was an illegal order given and I put it to him on the basis that even if there was such an order would you disobeyed such an illegal order, that's what I intended to state.

MR LAX: I was just puzzled because his direct evidence was that there was no decision taken at any stage that he was aware of to kill these people?

MR VISSER: That's precisely correct, that's our evidence but that is what was put by my learned friend to the witness.

MR LAX: Until the point that the vehicle came to a stop, you had no idea that anybody had died yet?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Due to the number of shots that I heard I thought that somebody might be seriously injured or killed.

MR LAX: If we just add up the number of shots found on the bodies and that obviously doesn't include shots that missed those bodies and the shots that missed the vehicle altogether, we're talking about - if you'll just bear with me a moment, I didn't do it earlier, 19, 29, 40 ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: My attorney added it, Chairperson, it's 10, 11 and 19 which add up to 50.  40?

CHAIRPERSON: 31 and 19 is 50.

MR VISSER: 50.  Except that it's not clear whether all of them are actually bullet wounds, there may be other wounds that one can distinguish as ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Entry wounds and exit wounds.

MR VISSER: Well also there was bumping of the cars, Chairperson, there may have been injuries, we don't really know because we haven't heard the doctor but it apparently seems as if there might have been 15 bullet wounds.

MR LAX: Just from my reading of those post-mortems and again obviously subject to that, the doctor does distinguish between lacerations and gunshot wounds in that and shrapnel wounds and so on so let's at least we can say with a degree of certainty that at least 15 odd shots were fired?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It's possible.

MR LAX: And you say you heard - you're not sure how many shots you heard.  Would that accord with what you heard, with your recollection of what you heard?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes there was quite an intense gun battle going on so I'm going along with that number of shots, yes it was an intense exchange of fire.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just help me, one tries to get as clear a picture as one can.  You talked about intense shooting and I can't in my mind yet form a picture as to where the shooting came from apart from your car and the kombi.  Now there were other police vehicles, they were behind you, they shot at this car from behind your car?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they never came alongside your car, those other police vehicles, while they were shooting at this car in front?  Is that the picture or is it not a clear picture?