Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

UNKNOWN: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You have said that, or didn't you say that. That Mrs Mandela did not say anything to show that she disapproved?  Is that what you said.  I want to know whether what you said was that Mrs Mandela did not say anything to show that she disapproved, is that what you're saying?

N JACK MENERA: She was not against that, she was not against.  If I say she was not against this, she knows the situation in Brandfort area very well.  If she could have said to me, Jack you are wrong, I would be telling you as the Commission that Winnie disapproved, she was against, but I didn't say that  to you, I was telling Winnie about our actions, now what she said to me was, after this incident you have to leave this country.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Give me the chance to ask you the question I wanted to ask you. Listen to the question.  Did she say anything to show that she approves of what you did.  You have said that she didn't say anything to show that she disapproved, now I am asking you, did she say anything to show that she approved of what you did?

N JACK MENERA: I've explained to the Commission that she said to us that we have to leave the country after this incident.  That is the only thing she said to us.

ADV DE JAGER: Now you say, she said to us, who was the us, weren't you alone there?

N JACK MENERA: I explained that I went alone in Johannesburg, my co-accused were left in Welkom.

UNKNOWN: Now Mr Menera, how did you conclude, what happened after you explained to Mrs Mandela what you had done in Brandfort?

N JACK MENERA: I have explained that it was not necessary for me to leave for exile, I saw this was an individual feeling.

UNKNOWN: Let me interrupt you.  You are with Mrs Mandela at work.  You are explaining to her that you have done something in Brandfort and she says that you must leave the country.  You refused to leave the country.  When you leave her office, where do you say to her you are going?  What transpires after you refuse to leave the country?

N JACK MENERA: Then I've explained that Winnie gave us her opinion and I must say she accommodated me at Safari Hotel in Hillbrow and I stayed there for about a week. That was at the hotel. And after a week I left Johannesburg, I came back to Brandfort.  My intention to go back to Brandfort, I knew that Edward Phelane was a dangerous person in the community.  I have indicated the nature of the people who were supposed to be eradicated.  Now Morgan Phelane and his son Edward were left behind and it was my mission to remove them, and I was happy because my mission was going to be conducted easily because of the gun I took from his son and I would do the job on my own, I would just shoot one or each of them with one bullet and then that will be the job well done. And after this the people would have been eradicated.
	That is my intention of leaving Johannesburg for Brandfort.

UNKNOWN: Brandfort?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And what happened when you reached Brandfort?

N JACK MENERA: On my arrival in Brandfort the shop was destroyed at the time, it was gone when I arrived in Brandfort and there was nobody in the shop because it was destroyed.  I went to Mr Morgan Phelane's house and I saw policemen, two in number, they were guarding his house. And I realised that these policemen were going to disturb me with my mission.  Now what was important was to give myself a time and stand at the right position where I would be in a position to get hold of him.  I was just planning to get hold of him spent about days in Brandfort seeking a way to get him but I couldn't get to him and I decided to leave Brandfort again because the police were now guarding his house.  In other words there might be a suspicion that I am around Brandfort and I said to myself, let me go back and when they've forgotten about this incident I will come back and kill them.
	I went back to...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Just before you go back to Johannesburg, where and with whom did you spend four days in Brandfort?

N JACK MENERA: I was alone.  I was hiding at the church in Morgan Phelane's church.

UNKNOWN: Why?

N JACK MENERA: Because I knew that nobody would suspect that I was at the church belonging to Mr Phelane.  I was alone. I would spend the day in the church and leave at night to go and fetch Mr Phelane and his son and  Rabana Mutsi and Buda. I failed to get hold of them, the four of them.

UNKNOWN: Now how did you travel from Brandfort to Johannesburg?

N JACK MENERA: I had money. We had money.

UNKNOWN: Did anyone have to assist you with your travelling between Brandfort and Johannesburg?

N JACK MENERA: I have indicated that I had money.

UNKNOWN: And where did you get the money from?

N JACK MENERA: The money to transport me from Brandfort to Johannesburg?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

N JACK MENERA: We were always in possession of money. When we committed this act we had money in our pockets.

UNKNOWN: And did you reach Johannesburg?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And by what means did you travel to Johannesburg?

N JACK MENERA: I used a taxi.

UNKNOWN: And once you were in Johannesburg, what happened?

N JACK MENERA: I explained that I met Winnie Mandela and she accommodated me at the Safari Hotel in Hillbrow, that is in Johannesburg, and I spent a week there.

ADV DE JAGER: Then you came back to Brandfort, did you again leave for Johannesburg after four days in Brandfort? Don't go back to the old story, we want to know what happened afterwards?

N JACK MENERA: I am explaining.  I didn't go back to Johannesburg after I left Brandfort, I went to Welkom, that is where I met my co-accused.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you go to Welkom by taxi?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You met your co-accused?

N JACK MENERA: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And what transpired?

N JACK MENERA: Sorry?

UNKNOWN: What happened?

N JACK MENERA: Where?

UNKNOWN: Mr Menera, you were at the stage that you told us that you spent four days at the Phelane's and that on the fourth day or the fifth day you gave up and you left the Phelane's.  Now when you left the Phelanes on that day what was your destination?

N JACK MENERA: I was going back to Welkom.

UNKNOWN: How did you travel from Brandfort to Welkom?

N JACK MENERA: I hiked. It was in the morning at about four o'clock.  I went to the road where we used to hike and I hiked until I was in Welkom.

UNKNOWN: And what happened at Welkom?

N JACK MENERA: I met my co-accused and I told them that I was in Johannesburg and I told them that I met with Winnie Mandela and I told her what we did in Brandfort and I told them my feeling about what Winnie suggested. My co-accused left me in Welkom, they were heading for Brandfort and I was left alone in Welkom and I went to the two friends of mine who were in Virginia. At their offices, they had their offices in Mandela Square in Virginia.  I was arrested there by the Virginia police and I was transferred to Brandfort and Brandfort police took me to Brandfort prison. I realised while in prison that I am not going to remain in jail because the people were still alive and I then planned and escape.

UNKNOWN: Yes you then escaped?