Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

DR KLATZOW: In what capacity did you know Mr Oslo?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I had worked together with Mr Oslo on a number of projects.

DR KLATZOW: And is it correct to say that Mr Oslo was part of an Armscor front company?

JOHN DAVID HARE: No.

DR KLATZOW: Did he have any dealings with Armscor?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Mr Oslo provided assistance to Armscor on a consultative basis, regarding a transaction that Armscor was interested in.

DR KLATZOW: That is correct.  And the information which I have is that Mr Oslo did this on a regular basis?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I would certainly not have called it a regular basis.  It may have been that there were other instances where I was not aware of his activity.  In the particular case that I am aware of, it was really on a one off basis only.

DR KLATZOW: Was that a procurement function that he acted in?

JOHN DAVID HARE: No.

DR KLATZOW: Would you tell us what the function was that Mr Oslo?

JOHN DAVID HARE: It was the export of items from this country.

DR KLATZOW: And is there any reason why he could not have also been involved in a procurement facility for you?

JOHN DAVID HARE: I was certainly not aware of that.  It would have been unusual I think because of the degree, the area of expertise that he was operating in.  South Africa was not at the time producing the product in which he was a specialist.

DR KLATZOW: Thank you very much.

MS TERREBLANCHE: What was that product that he was a specialist in?

JOHN DAVID HARE: He was operating in the strategic oil fund.

MS TERREBLANCHE: And was he on an Armscor mission when he got killed in the Helderberg?

JOHN DAVID HARE: Not to my knowledge.

MS TERREBLANCHE: There's one last question.  You were referring to commercial goods manufactured by Armscor at the time.  Can you give an example and the company or subsidiaries involved?

JOHN DAVID HARE: For example.  The computer company that Armscor operates, sells commercial computer systems.  They've been involved some time ago in the payment of pensions, using computer systems that were developed there.

MS TERREBLANCHE: What is the name of that subsidiary or company?

JOHN DAVID HARE: That company was Infoplan.  But I do believe that if you have a look you will find, and I can't recall specific instances but there are in fact and were throughout the period a number of commercial product derivatives of military manufactured items.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Terreblanche.  Well it remains for me to thank you Mr Hare for having taken the time to come out and assist the Commission in its endeavour to re-visit the whole Helderberg enquiry and try and find out if we are any where near establishing the truth of what really happened.
 You must understand that we have got enquiries from a number of quarters, including an organisation called the Friends of the victims of Helderberg.  It's been twelve years since the event and it's an event that we had hoped and we possibly might be able to throw some further light on and it is when people like you are ready, even at short notice to come and share with us what they know or 
don't know about the incident.  So, we thank you very much.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Commissioner, may I thank you for paying me the compliment and may I also say that as I have said earlier, I truly believe that every single individual within the South African Airways would very dearly love to be able to get to the bottom of what caused the Helderberg incident but I also believe that every individual will offer you every assistance that they possibly can and will answer whatever question is possible in an attempt to get to find a solution as to the cause of the Helderberg incident.
 If I may provide further information at any stage please do not hesitate.  I would welcome coming back and answering any further questions if cause arises.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  You are excused Mr Hare.

JOHN DAVID HARE: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Terreblanche?

MS TERREBLANCHE: I think we should now call Mr Willemse, Mr Tienie Willemse.  I believe the two of them need to....

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome Mr Willemse.  I have explained very quickly to most witnesses that this is a Section 29 enquiry.  What it means is it is an investigative enquiry.  It is not a trial, it's not a tribunal, it's not disciplinary enquiry, no findings will be made.  It's an information gathering exercise.
 It is held privately so you can safely regard everybody here to have been sworn to confidentiality and so also will the evidence that will be taken here to not be made public and that decision will be the decision of the Commission as and when certain requirements have been complied with.  
 We have translators who are also part of the Commission who are contracted to the Commission and who will be able to translate for us on any person who would prefer to take the evidence in English should you choose to give your evidence in Afrikaans.  So you are entirely free to testify in the language you best would like to testify in.  
 We will not be disadvantaged thereby because as you will see there are listening devices which will assist us to listen simultaneously as you speak in to the English version of your evidence.  So if you want to speak in Afrikaans, please feel free to do so.
 Welcome to these proceedings and before you testify I will therefore ask Commissioner Glenda Wildschut who is to my left to swear you in.  But let me introduce the  members of the panel.  She is Commissioner in the Reparations and Rehabilitation's Committee.  I am Ntsebeza.  
 I am a Commissioner in the Human Rights Violations Committee and are in the investigative unit.  
 To my right is Mr Magadhla, Wilson, he is head of special investigations.  He is also as you see a member of this panel.  To the right is Ms Terreblanche, Chrystelle, who has investigated and has collected all information relevant to this hearing and with her is Dr David Klatzow who has been contracted to the Commission and who will give, will assist us in those technical aspects and in any of the aspects about this matter which is fairly familiar, having dealt with it on a substantial number of years thereafter.  Ms Wildschut will therefore swear you in.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Mr Willemse good morning.  Do you have any objection to taking the oath?  No objection.  Could you state your full name for the record please?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: Martinus Gerhardus Willemse.

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Terreblanche?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Good morning Mr Willemse.  Thanks for coming.  I see we misspelt your name on the invitation.  Sorry about that.

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: The Williams, I'm used to that, that's no problem.

MS TERREBLANCHE: I think it's these computer spell checks that insist on these things some times.  We've asked you to come and provide details of your role in SAA at the time of the Helderberg disaster, to explain SAA's role in terms of the  investigation into the Helderberg disaster.  To answer questions pertaining to the relationship between SAA and Armscor during the 1980's and answer questions pertaining to SAA's relationship with airlines and cargo agents in Israel and Taiwan.
 May I just start off by asking you to explain to us your career in SAA.  When you started and?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: May I have the opportunity, as the Chairman said that Afrikaans is my mother tongue, that if it will be okay with you that I conduct the session in Afrikaans?

MS TERREBLANCHE: Please go ahead.  Can you use the earphones because then you will hear the English, so that we can have, but it's quite fine.  Can you hear us?

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: Yes I can.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Please continue Mr Willemse.  You may speak in Afrikaans.

MARTINUS GERHARDUS WILLEMSE: I hope it won't cause any inconvenience.