Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  I would like to welcome everybody here to this hearing.  I'd like to just start off by apologising for the late start.  Unfortunately, my flight into Johannesburg International last night was cancelled due to inclement weather from where I was due to catch the plane so I could only catch this morning's flight which was also late, but I apologise for the late start.
	Today we are dealing with the application of Mr Lottering.  Mr Mostert, would you like to put yourself on record?

MR MOSTERT: I am Mr D A Mostert from Pretoria and I am representing Mr Lottering in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: I would also just like to introduce the panel that will be sitting at this hearing.  On my right is Advocate Bosman, on my left is Advocate Gcabashe and on my far left Mr Moloi and I'm Selwyn Miller and the evidence leader is Mr Andre Steenkamp.  Mr Mostert?
EXAMINATION BY MR MOSTERT

MR MOSTERT: Chairperson, honourable Members, we will begin by presenting the evidence of the applicant, if you require if it be necessary?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: (sworn states)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR MOSTERT: We have applied for the amnesty on the charge of murder, robbery and escape.  In the first instance I would like to ask you and I submit to the Committee why you reckon that the actions which you committed were politically motivated.  Begin with your chief motive and tell the Committee how it occurred that you committed these actions.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: My chief motive was for our nation, to achieve a Volkstaat for our nation and conduct a coup d'etat for our own people.

MR MOSTERT: For which political organisations were you a member?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: AWB, The Order of Death and more recently the Order of the Boerevolk.

MR MOSTERT: When did you join the AWB?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Approximately in 1986.  The end of 1986, beginning of 1987.

MR MOSTERT: And your participation in the AWB - was that active?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes I was an active member I was also part of their military wing.

MR MOSTERT: For how long were you a member of the AWB before you resigned?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Approximately three years.

MR MOSTERT: And for how long were you a member of Aquillo?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: The same amount of time.

MR MOSTERT: Let us look at the offences which were committed.  At the point when the offences were committed were you still a registered member of the AWB?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: How did it occur that you were not a member of the AWB at that point?

MR MOSTERT: When we began to establish underground cells of the AWB under The Order of Death, we all resigned from the AWB.

MR MOSTERT: Very well, I would just like you to tell the Committee point by point, in the first place - how it occurred that you went underground?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I was recruited to Aquillo by Dawie de Beer who was the head of The Order of Death.  He was also the administrative head of Aquillo.

MR MOSTERT: And why did you resign from the AWB?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: If we were caught doing illegal things that we would not be implicated with the AWB or that we would not draw them into trouble through this.

MR MOSTERT: Very well.  So these offences were committed while you were a member, or an official member of The Order of Death?  Did The Order of Death issue any kind of membership or how did it function?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No it was an underground division of Aquillo.

MR MOSTERT: How did you operate, was it on a cell basis?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Could you just provide more information for the Committee?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: In every town there were two or three people, or at least not in every town but in the towns where there were cells there were two or three people who belonged to a cell.  It was due to circumstances that the cells would co- operate or hear from one another.

MR MOSTERT: As far as you know, what was the explicit purpose of The Order of Death?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: They decided that a large group of the National Party for example, Ministers, would be eliminated with the purpose of conducting a coup d'etat in order to place enough pressure on the government so that they would grant us our Volkstaat.

MR MOSTERT: Was that The Order of Death's purpose at that point?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: On whose authority did The Order of Death function, do you know?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Originally it was under Terre'blanche's authority, he was the head of the AWB.

MR MOSTERT: Who told you that?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Dawie de Beer.

MR MOSTERT: Let us just get this straight, Dawie de Beer was the leader of The Order of Death?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: He was the administrative head of Aquillo and he also recruited members?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: With who else did Dawie de Beer liaise that you know of?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: With Mr Treurnicht who has subsequently passed away.

MR MOSTERT: And what exactly did Mr de Beer say to you when he recruited you?  What was the objective of your recruitment?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: In order to initiate an underground movement which would execute political elimination with the objective of enforcing a Volkstaat.

MR MOSTERT: You have just testified that a coup d'etat was planned by means of taking out prominent ministers of the former government.  Did that remain the plan or did you deviate from that at any point?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: At a stage when the ANC became too strong and the CP began losing support, we made a couple of shifts so that we would concentrate more on the left wing leaders instead of the NP leaders.

MR MOSTERT: Alright, at this point in time, when the instructions and the plan were tabled that the NP leaders had to be eliminated, did you receive any orders to watch any ministers or do any groundwork?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, at that stage we had to gather as much information as possible about these prominent ministers and also by means of literature and newspapers we did this.  Later we would monitor them in greater detail and watch their movements.

MR MOSTERT: Did you compile any reports regarding their movements?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Could you just tell the Committee, among others?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I had to attend a certain meeting to see how easy it would be to infiltrate the meeting of Adrian Vlok and I compiled a report about that and we sent it through.

MR MOSTERT: Who did you send it to?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I believe that it was sent through to Eugene Terre'blanche.  From two sources I received feedback that the reports had been received by him.

MR MOSTERT: But to who did you hand it over?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Dawie de Beer.

MR MOSTERT: Did you hand it over personally to Mr Dawie de Beer?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Did you take any further actions regarding the former National Party and compile any other reports?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: In the initial stages we also wrote threat letters to the government telling them that if they did not concede to our demand for a Volkstaat that we would go over into action.

MR MOSTERT: You must think clearly, at what point did these activities take place that you compiled the report about Vlok and so forth?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I'm not entirely sure, it must have been at the beginning of 1989 or perhaps in 1988.

MR MOSTERT: Let us return to the planning of The Order of Death.  When you were recruited were there certain requirements which you had to fulfil?