Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MS LOCKHAT: The next amnesty applicant is Mr Leon Flores.

MR MALAN: Your full names are Leon William John.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Mr Flores, you have completed the proper application form in terms of the Act and handed it in and at all times you have given your full co-operation to the investigative officials of the TRC, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You were also in the service of the South African Police, as it was defined by Section 20(2)(a) and Section 20(2)(f) of the TRC Act of 1995, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You were attached to the Section C1, which was known as Vlakplaas.  And the workings of the unit is set out in the supplementary bundle by Eugene de Kock, which was handed up during the Johannes Mabotha/Penge Mine incident, and this forms a basis of the workings of Vlakplaas for future amnesty hearings.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You are also aware that Vlakplaas was established as a covert counter-insurgency unit and it was the operational arm of the Security Police in the combat against terrorism.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At the time of these two incident, and you are involved in the incident of 8 June as well as the one of 12 June 1988, you were a Sergeant, in the service of Vlakplaas, with Col Eugene de Kock, one of the applicants, as your Commander.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You confirm the content of your amnesty application and your general background, training in the Police Service and the merits of the incident, as it is handed up to this Committee.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you confirm that your political objectives were aimed against the ANC and the communist movements within South Africa and outside South Africa, and the political insurgents through the borders into the Republic of South Africa.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times you followed the instructions of Eugene de Kock to the letter.  And do you confirm that you also worked on the need-to-know basis?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Is it correct that this need-to-know basis entailed that you execute your instructions and ask no questions?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you always acted within the scope of your duties as you were employed by the service?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: If we study your application, you were involved in an incident on the 8th of June 1988, during which you received instructions to be present at an ambush outside Piet Retief, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You were involved in the incident and you also fired at the vehicle.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I was involved, but I did not fire shots at the vehicle during the first incident.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you briefly tell us, you arrived at the scene and took up position, and what happened then?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Because the vehicle was a little delayed and arrived late, I received instructions by Eugene de Kock to accompany Botha to see where the vehicle was.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, and then?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: After we departed from the ambush scene, I would say approximately three kilometres further on the particular vehicle passed us.  We waited some time until it passed and then we turned around and drove back slowly to the point where the rest of the members were waiting.

MR CORNELIUS: Very well.  You stopped?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: And with our arrival there we saw, because our headlights were on, that the vehicle had already gone into the ambush and that members had fired on the vehicle.  We waited until the shooting had ceased and then we climbed out of the vehicle and went closer.

MR CORNELIUS: And you found that there were three deceased women as well as an Indian man and they were not armed?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, those were my observations.

MR CORNELIUS: And it is common cause that weapons were planted afterwards to make it seem that they were already armed?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: The second incident, you were indeed involved in the ambush?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, I was, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And you also fired shots on the vehicle, as you mention in your statement?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And it is also common cause that four men had died.  Were they armed?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, they were armed.

MR CORNELIUS: Is it correct that it was practice between C-Section and Security that Security would obtain information with regard to the target and then call in the operational arm to follow up on the information?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any reason to doubt the instructions and information of Deetlefs and de Kock and Pienaar?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Not at all, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You were a so-called foot-soldier in this incident?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that the armed MK members would be a danger to the country and the general public?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that you acted in the interest of the country against the enemy of the then Republic and to stop the infiltration of these armed persons?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: In terms of Section 20(3)(f), except for your salary, did you receive any rewards for your actions?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you act out of malice or revenge against the deceased?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you make a full disclosure of all the relevant facts?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, I have.

MR CORNELIUS: And you request amnesty in terms of Section 20 of the Act, for a total of eight, what would be eight charges of murder, perjury and defeating the ends of justice by means of the statements which you made during the inquest, and any other statutory delicts which might emanate from there.  Is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Is there anything else you would like to add?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No, thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cornelius.  Ms van der Walt, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Flores, during this incident, is it correct that there was a high intensity of insurgency and attacks, specifically in the Eastern Transvaal?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: You heard that a question was put by Mr Moerane to the previous applicant, that at that stage the ANC was winning the battle.  Did you see it as such?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, basically he is correct to say that, to put it as such, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: So it was not a normal conventional combat, but all methods had to be used to stop these infiltrations and the attacks of the ANC on the country by means of violence.  Did you experience it as such?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: If you put it as such I can agree with you.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?