Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, just going back to what Terreblanche was saying to you, you know he gave you the petrol money and said you should try and get away, where were you all supposed to got to because you had all come up to Ventersdorp to help form this Volkstaat.  Where were you going to?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I had no idea where we should go.  When we left there I was with other men and they just took a direction.  I was at so many places, today I wouldn't remember how to get there.

ADV GCABASHE: And roughly when exactly did this meeting take place?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Are you asking for the date and the day?  I cannot remember, it was the day after they were arrested at the shooting range.  The same day we went home and from there we went to Ventersdorp to give you an indication of what occurred.

ADV GCABASHE: Now the people who Terreblanche was addressing were officers from the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It was the people who went to their wives and then came back.

ADV GCABASHE: And then you were then supposed to pass this message on to others, was this the idea?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No some of the people were present there.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just get some clarity.  You just said that this was after the people were arrested at the shooting range when you went to Ventersdorp?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I would like to correct myself, after Leon Van der Merwe and Nico Prinsloo were arrested.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know if other people were arrested that same day at the shooting range?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At that stage, no.  When we left we went to other people who Jan De Wet knew, if I could just remember correctly, and this woman who lived on that farm told us that the people at the shooting range, that some of our people at the shooting range were arrested.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you then flee?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes we were then on the run, from that stage on.

MS VAN DER WALT: And a few months afterwards you were arrested?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to take you back to this Boere identity document which you showed to the Committee.  You said that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Will this be Exhibit E, Exhibit D is the statement of Mr Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: I forgot about that, I'm sorry.  Then it will be Exhibit E.  You could not remember the name of the person who handed over this document to you.  Have you thought about his name?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, I now know his name.  The male person was the actor Scott Jacobs, I'm sorry Schalk Jacobs and the female was Elma Potgieter.  As far as I can remember they were husband and wife.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did they issue these documents?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes if you look at the back of the document you will see Potgieter's Printers, and then it rang a bell and I remembered their names.

MS VAN DER WALT: They were then the publishers, how did it come about that you applied for this document.  What happened, why did you apply for such a document?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At one meeting which I attended when I was a Chief Commandant in the Wen Kommando, then this Schalk Jacobs attended one of the monthly meetings and asked permission to address the people and he then talked about this document.  As far as I can remember some of these forms were attached to the AWB forms that went through headquarters and that is how some of the other people obtained some of them.

MS VAN DER WALT: So there are other people who also have such documents?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the first page the Boerevolk's principles are outlined?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then it continues, me the holder of this document declare that I reconcile or side myself with the freedom struggle of the Boerevolk and that I will fight this struggle on the basis of the following principles.  And then on the second page there are various things that you have to read through, Boerevolk, the land, the Anthem, form of government and then the last paragraph:  I read the above in applying for this document, I understand it and will commit myself to the struggle of the Boerevolk.  When you received this document did you believe in what you undertook?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then on the third page your particular, basically with the same information as a normal identity document.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie there is something that I would like to find out.  I think this is probably the only identity document in the whole world with two ID numbers.  Which one would you then use?  That is on page 3.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes there are two identity numbers.  That's a very good question Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And it seems as if it's from two countries, the Boerevolk and the Republic of South Africa?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At certain opportunities where I went into a bank to go and draw money and once when I had to sign for insurance papers, before this incident I took out the same ID document because I was very proud of it.  They then asked me where I found this ID document and I said this is our new Boere identity document and they asked for the number and I am sure that my real ID number is also there.  If it now must be compared to other documents, but I understood that in the Volkstaat as it was promised to us, we would make use of those new identity numbers.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were also asked by the Chairman on what charges you are applying for amnesty.  You were found guilty of the three charges concerning the car bombs, that is Bree Street, Germiston and Jan Smuts airport?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And together with all the charges that go along with that, the murder charges, attempted murder and attempt to damage property, you were found guilty.  Furthermore you were also found guilty on the explosion in Pretoria and Randfontein and Westonaria?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And also with regards to all the other charges that go along with that, attempted murder and deliberate damage of property and then also that you were found in possession of explosives and detonation devices.  You personally, never really owned those explosives?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson most of them I didn't even know about.

MS VAN DER WALT: But the judge found you guilty because you were seen as being in charge of the camp at the game farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's how I understood it Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you gain any benefit from all these act which were committed during those operations?