Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-13

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: There was no need for that but I did not know that you would like to know that.  If I knew I could have done so but unfortunately I did not know.  I thought that you were going to ask me everything that is concerning Mr August's injuries, I did not know that you were going to investigate about me.  I was just explaining the action, the one that I'm actually applying amnesty for, I did not know that the fact that I was a commander would be an issue here but if I'm requested to do so I could do that.

UNKNOWN: Have you mentioned that anywhere in your affidavit?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Will you please repeat the question sir?

UNKNOWN: Maybe Mr Mbandazayo can assist us.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Could the speaker please repeat the question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, that's the first page of the affidavit.

UNKNOWN: Oh thank you.

UNKNOWN: Now Mr Majebe I would like to go back to the incident as to what actually happened there.  So when you saw Mr August, is it correct that on the day that you attacked him he was wearing a lumber jacket?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: He was wearing a track suit and a T-shirt.  The track suit had an ANC badge on the side.

UNKNOWN: The track suit was it short sleeved or what?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: It was a track pants with a T-shirt, a short sleeved T-shirt.

UNKNOWN: And the T-shirt, was it tucked under the trousers?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: It was not tucked in.

UNKNOWN: So firstly, you did not see Mr August threaten Ngulu Leko with a firearm?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You were not present at all at the time when this incident allegedly took place?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now how did you get to know about this threatening of Ngulu Leko with a firearm?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Mr Gcabashe was fixing the car when he saw Mr August drawing a gun on Ngulu Leko, as an elderly person he was very shocked.  As we used to crack jokes with him, he went past us and he was very shocked.  We were just joking and then he told us what happened, he told us the whole story.

UNKNOWN: And you mentioned that Ngulu Leko is not a member of the PAC, it's his brother who was PAC ...(indistinct).

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now just before I deal with the next point I just want to clear that point, in your application you say that Ngulu Leko was a member of PAC.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: His brother was a member.  I think that was a mistake because Ngule was still young at the time therefore he did not have a right to be a member but his brother was a member.  I can say that he used to like the organisation because he grew up in front of us and he used to be around when we were discussing PAC matters, like a young boy always following his brother.

UNKNOWN: He was eight years old at the time?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Between eight and ten years of age.

UNKNOWN: Did you accept that - you do say in your application that Ngulu Leko was a member of the PAC?  At page 4 of the application.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes I did mention that in my application.

UNKNOWN: Mention it yourself?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.  The reason for this is because I knew him as a person who used to like PAC. He used to attend our meetings as a child and that was an indication that when he reaches a certain age he would join PAC and be in the same place as his brother, but at the time, the age, we did not allow him to be a member.  We were not following Lucky August to protect Ngulu Leko but then we heard some things that he said came to our minds and we also wanted to protect Luyanda's home because we knew what he was up to.

UNKNOWN: Before you assaulted Mr August you did not speak to Ngulu Leko?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: He was nowhere to be found at the time.

UNKNOWN: Now can you tell the Committee, why is it that you are divulging for the first time this name of Mr Gcabashe in your application, why didn't you mention Gcabashe before?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I think I forgot because when I mentioned Ngulu I was supposed to mention his name but if I did not do that maybe I forgot to do so.

UNKNOWN: Does Mr Gcabashe live in Fort Beaufort?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

UNKNOWN: What is his full name, what are his full names?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I know  him as Makwesi Gcabashe, I don't know his real name but Gcabashe is his surname.

UNKNOWN: So after Mr Gcabashe had spoken to you you went back to the place you were guarding and you as you say you were lying there on the grass?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: When Mr Gcabashe was telling us this we were not yet at that place.  I want to explain this again, Mr Lucky August, we saw him for the very first time when we were next to the base sitting next to the offices as the offices were opposite to the houses of Mchizani's house, he was sitting next to his brother's house.  He went past us and he went straight to his brother's house and he left the house and he took another direction to his home.  From Luyanda Zote's house it is a third, - he went to a third, a fourth house from Luyanda Zote's house.  As we were sitting there talking about this and we knew that he had bodyguards and Brigay came to us and we discussed and he told us.  We did not mention anything to him, we did not tell him that we were going to attack Mr August, we just left and we just joked about the matter again and he left but something came to our minds that he had a gun and the fact that he threatened Luyanda and Luyanda was there and we was forced to go and do that because it became clear to us what he said during the day he was willing to do it but we weren't there to defend ourselves, we did not intend to injure him.  He knew very well I did not have any personal grudge against him because I remember we were friends.  The other day I gave him a tape recorder.  I did not have a problem with him but I wanted him to stop what he was doing to my organisation that I loved so much.  That was the reason for us to do that, that was the reason to end our friendship at the time but right now I do not hold any grudge against him.  Even before I did not have a grudge.  I hope that even my mother - I never allow even my mother to try to destroy my PAC organisation because no-one sent me to join PAC.  I learnt a lot of things and I like it.  That is why Mr Lucky August is in that condition.

UNKNOWN: Mr Majebe, you saw this firearm, you yourself, you saw this firearm for the first time after you had attacked Mr August.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I did not see the gun before but as he was approaching us his hand was around his waist and he did not know what was under his T-shirt where he was actually touching.  When he was lying down I touched his waist, that's when I got the gun.

UNKNOWN: So you saw the gun for the first time after you had assaulted him?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Then you took the gun and ran away.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: I took the gun, I hit him again and I ran with the gun.

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: After taking his gun I hit him.

UNKNOWN: And now when you say that he was trying to take something out of his waist, you didn't know at the time what it was he was trying to take out?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Are you talking about time, watch time or time of the year, what is it that you are talking about?

UNKNOWN: It was at the moment when you saw him doing that?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: It was when he was approaching us.

CHAIRPERSON: You were defending your organisation at the time it was being under attack by what you call oppressors, correct?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There has been a change of government since, correct?

THEMBISILE MAJEBE: There is a change in now.  There is something that I can say, it a change in some of the things but not in everything.

CHAIRPERSON: We all agree but there has been a change of government, not so?