Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-10

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you are happy Mr Shakoane with the reasons that have been advanced by your client and you will be able to argue from those reasons that occur.  We just thought maybe you wanted to go a little further.  However, if you feel that those are your instructions and from the reasons that have just been advised by Mr Seshaba, you'll be able to address us and convince us that the requirements of the Act will be satisfied by the evidence before us.  You are completely on your hands.

MR SHAKOANE: Mr Seshaba, the ultimate shooting that occurred, how would you ...[inaudible] as to how it associates with your role in the situation?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Thank you.  After shooting the deceased, the firearms which they had lay there, I did not take them because there were three of these Toaster Gangs, they left these firearms, they were sitting against a precast wall.  I did not take the firearms, what I wanted from them is for them to take back the money to the shop, not give it to me, I wanted them to do it themselves.  I only shot at them because the deceased reached for his firearm and I realised that my safety was no longer guaranteed.  I shot at Boy and these other two fled.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Seshaba, it's really not clear to me.  Where was Vincent Majola at this stage?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: He was standing at the gate.

ADV BOSMAN: So he was not one of the three?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: No, he was not part of the three.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not clear to me how Vincent Majola comes to the scene.  This is how I understand your evidence and correct me if I've understood it wrongly.  You hear gunshots whilst you are at home, you hear a gunshot whilst you are at home, you go out to investigate.  Whilst out you come across Ndlandla Ngala, he tells you about his ordeal, he has just been robbed by the Toaster Gang and his shop has also been robbed of money.  Where are you at that stage?  Are you next to your house when you meet Ndlandla Ngala?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Thank you very much.  When this gunshot was fired at the shop my homestead is not far away from the shop, it could be 60 metres away from home.  When I went out Ndlandla came to me and said here are the Toaster Gangs and I think I was saying it in a hurry and I said to him, do you know that these guys are the Toaster Gangs and he said yes, I know them, I went to school with these boys and he showed me the boys and I followed them, the three of them, all of them armed with firearms and I saw people scattering to all different directions and they went to number 25 Sangweni Section, that is where I shot the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now you leave your house after hearing the sound of gunfire?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you armed at that stage when you leave your house on hearing the sound of the gunfire?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes I had an AK.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you have an AK when you heard the sound of gunfire?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I knew that a firearm in the township was common place especially among the Toaster Gang members as well as the IFP.  On hearing a gun shot obviously it would have been them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what was your intention of having a firearm with you?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: My intention on leaving the homestead armed and investigating, I just wanted to establish who were shooting and what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: What would you have done after you had established that it was the Toaster Gang, what would you have done with your firearm?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: That's a very good question, thank you very much.  On concluding that it is indeed the Toaster Gang members I would not have followed them, I knew they were dangerous people, that is why I am saying to this Committee that I followed them to Number 25 Sangweni Section where at I shot this deceased.  I could not have followed them directly, they were so dangerous.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand that aspect of evidence.  You have just given us a background of the activities of the Toaster Gang, how terrible they were, the mayhem they caused in your township, then you are a member of a self defence unit, it is your objective to defend your community.  You are in possession of an AK47 in order to achieve that objective which is to defend your community and you want us - you are telling us that if you had established that the people who had been shooting in the township and who probably would have been shooting at the community you have been tasked to defend but if you had established that these people were the Toaster Gang, you wouldn't have used your firearm, you wouldn't have followed them, would you not be shirking your responsibility?  I just cannot reconcile what you are saying with what the duty of an SDU member was?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: As I stated earlier on that these Toaster Gang members were such that I could not have followed them directly and request them politely to take back whatever they took from the shop because they were such that one could not have spoken to them, it was not possible.  Had I known already that they were Toaster Gang members I would have shot them because they would have done the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshaba, you are giving evidence under oath, I want you to give your evidence in a crisp and comprehensible fashion.  You are being represented by Mr Shakoane whose duty is to assist this Committee to ensure that we understand your evidence in as clear a manner as possible.
	In your evidence previously you have stated that Ndlandla Ngala pointed out the Toaster Gang to you and told you that he had just been robbed by members of the Toaster Gang, do I understand that aspect of your evidence correctly?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you then say now that had you known that those persons were members of the Toaster Gang you wouldn't have followed them because they are so dangerous?  You are giving contradictory versions.  You follow people because they've been pointed out as the Toaster Gang and on another vein though, had you known that they were members of the Toaster Gang you wouldn't have dared to follow them because they were dangerous?  Do you understand the contradiction I am sitting with?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please just clear that for me?  Did you not follow the three persons who were pointed out to you by Ndlandla because they were members of the Toaster Gang and they had again committed a crime that it was your duty to make sure that they do not commit as a member of an SDU?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Thank you.  As I stated earlier on that Ndlandla came to me and told me that here are these Toaster Gang members and I followed them until they arrived at Number 25 where I shot Boy, the deceased.  As I stated earlier on that on arriving there I did not talk to them impolitely, I instead politely requested them to take back the money to the shop as well as the watch and the deceased and the others were sitting against the wall or should I say the deceased lifted his firearm and I shot him and the two fled.  I could not shoot them because there were people coming from work and people all over, I did not want to shoot innocent people.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are repeating the evidence that I already have, that was not the import of my question.  What I want to know is, when you followed the three persons who had been identified to you by Ndlandla, did you at the time when you followed them knew that they were members of the Toaster Gang?  Had that information been disclosed to you by Ndlandla?  That's the ambit of my question.

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes he did.

CHAIRPERSON: It therefore cannot be correct for you to say had you known that they were members of the Toaster Gang you wouldn't have dared to follow them as your later evidence would want to suggest, is it not so?