Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: Are you hearing today for the first time, that that passage for whatever reason was commonly known as Violent Street?

MR MMELESI: No. I don't dispute what you're saying, I - everybody would call that Violent Street because of the sticker which has been put there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Oh, you do know that everybody called that passage Violent Street because of the sticker?  You know that?

MR MMELESI: Not that I know but that I don't dispute. the reason is that when you open the door, the sticker has been put on the hall which has been written Violent Street.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You know you keep on repeating to every question I'm putting to you. You keep repeatedly coming back to stating that the sticker was put on the door. We know that, there's no problem about that.
    What I want to know from you is, you mister  Mmelesi, at the time when you were working on the 5th floor, did you ever know that that passage, for whatever reason, was commonly referred to as Violent Street, or did you not know?  Either you knew or you didn't know.

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I did not know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Are you hearing, for the first time during this proceedings that that passage was commonly known as Violent Street?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, that is not so. I'm saying the people who entered there saw the sticker on the wall, you'd even see it there yourself.  Nobody told me that you must know that this passage is called Violent Street.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You're going to realise that I'm going to expect you to answer my question, the way you want. I'm asking you, are you hearing for the first time during these proceedings that that passage was known as Violent Street?

MR MMELESI: No, I explained that it is not the first time.  Everybody who entered there would see that that sticker and would call that passage Violent Street but nobody specifically said this is Violent Street, this is not my first time.

CHAIRPERSON: But why, have you said repeatedly to my brother: "I did not know it was commonly called Violent Street"?

MR MMELESI: Sir, I said nobody told me that it was Violent Street, it was a sticker that was put there. If you entered there you'd even tell yourself, oh well this is Violent Street by just seeing the sticker.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm going to put this question for the last time and if you don't answer it, I'm going to leave it.  You knew that that passage, whether as a result of the sticker being put there or not, you knew, even at a time when you were still a member of the security branch, that that passage was commonly referred to as Violent Street.  Did you know that?

MR MMELESI: Sir, people who entered that passage called it Violent Street.  I'm saying I just saw that sticker there, It doesn't mean I knew it was Violent Street.  Whether I called it Violent Street or not, the people called it Violent Street, I did not know it was Violent Street.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I told you it was for the last time I'm going to ask you that question I'm going to leave it there.

ADV MEMANI: Thank you Mr Chair.
    Mr Mmelesi, the people that were taken to to Glen we've been told had injuries.  Did you see that people had been injured, that you conveyed to Glen?

MR MMELESI: I said that there was no person who has been assaulted in my prescience.

ADV MEMANI: I'm not saying to you that the persons were assaulted in your presence. I'm saying that when you conveyed them, the people had been injured already.

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I don't agree.

ADV MEMANI: And, subject to correction, Oupa Makubalo had had lost his tooth as a result of being assaulted on that day.

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I did not hear that that somebody lost a tooth.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Just one question, Mr Chairman. Did you ever see blood stains on the wall, one of the walls, or both walls of Violent Street?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I did not see blood stains.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR VISSER: Just one question, Mr Chairman.
	Mr MMelesi, you were asked about what would happen if you asked a witness questions which he refused to answer. And you said that you would leave him and perhaps come back to him later. What was the purpose of the interrogation as far as you were concerned on that day?   What did you want to do with the questions that the white person was asking them, what was the purpose?

MR MMELESI: They wanted to know as to where were those people going and their names and who were their contacts in Lesotho and that who was their leader. If I answer your question well.

MR VISSER: And if you got all that information, for example from a particular person, what would then have happened?

MR MMELESI: Then later WE would take that report to Mr Du Plooy.

MR VISSER: Chairman before - I have no further questions. But what has come to hand are the floor plans of the 4th and the 5th floor which I beg leave to hand up to you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: : These are the only two that I've got, the only two floors that I've got Mr Chairman. I've got a few copies here.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think the other floors have been mentioned at all. Have they?

MR VISSER: : There are three copies Mr Chairman, and some for our learned friends as well.

CHAIRPERSON: We're obliged to you, Mr Visser, and to those instructing you.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not activated.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you help us and tell us which passage was known as Violent Street?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the evidence was that it's the passage that leads to the kitchen and if you look at the top of the page:  510 appears to have been the kitchen so that would mean - I haven't discussed this with my witnesses, I just got this to hand, that would mean that that would probably be the passage which is Violent Street.  If one takes the top of the page as North for purposes of argument, it would be the South North/North South passage then.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you all at idem?  Your witnesses, are they saying the same about this?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I've just said I haven't discussed the plans with ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: But kindly find out Mr Visser, he's sitting next to you, so that we don't need to come back to this again.

MR VISSER: Colonel Erasmus explains to me Mr Chairman, that looking at the floor plan, the passage running from South to North, if North is the top of the page, was Violent Street.  That is the one running in the direction of the kitchen marked 510 and apparently there's a staircase or whatever and their are toilets on the right hand top side which does not appear on your - only a part of which appears on the page.
    If you look down at the bottom, if I may say the Southern end of the passage on the left hand side, you see there's a circle and a cross, whatever that is supposed to indicate I don't know but it was in that vicinity that the sticker was attached to the wall.
	In other words on the left hand side as you walked into the passage, next to room 511, on the left hand wall that is where the sticker, according to Colonel Erasmus's recollection, was put on the wall.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears from the other plan that next to the circle and cross are the letters BR or BK, I think that it's BR.  What that means, I don't know.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we don't know at the moment, but we will try to establish whether there's any -  whether we can find out what the letters are and what they stand for.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, on the plans, on the 5th floor you've got a partition in the foyer and on the 4th floor its an open space leading to the two passages, I don't know whether that was the position at the time or not.