Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

MNR ODENDAL: Luitenant het my gese daar is ook mense van Moord en Roof  [onduidelik]

INTERPRETER: Lieutenant Liebenberg told me that the people from Murder and Robbery will also be present.

ADV POTGIETER: So - so wat het u dan nou beplan op die 2de, want dit lyk asof Luitenant Liebenberg al meeste van die werk gedoen het.

INTERPRETER: So, what did you plan then on the 2nd   It seems as if Lieutenant Liebenberg had done all the work beforehand?

MNR ODENDAL: Nee ons het beplan die aantal mense wat ons gaan inkry en waar elkeen moet 'n strategetiese punt moet inneem - waar sy  voertuig moet wees, want ons het geweet waar die aanval na bewering gaan plaasvind.

INTERPRETER: We planned how many people would be involved.  Where they would take up their strategic positions, because we knew where this attack would presumably happen.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou  u was die tweede in bevel van die Onluste-eenheid op daai stadium.

INTERPRETER: You were the second in charge of the Riot Squad at that time.

MNR ODENDAL: Dit is korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou  hoe het dit dan gekom dat u daar is en nie die persoon wat in bevel van die Onluste-eenheid is nie.

INTERPRETER: How was it then that you were there and not the person in charge?

MNR ODENDAL: Ek was maar - as tweede in bevel van die Onluste-eenheid was ek die man wat altyd in die gebiede op die grondvlak die werkings verrig het.

INTERPRETER: I was there as second in charge of the Riot Squad.  I was the person who had to do the work on grass roots level.

ADV POTGIETER: Dis korrek, ek meen u het 'n  - u het - u was  baie bekend gewees in die woonbuurte ensovoorts in daai jare - in die jare van die onluste.

INTERPRETER: You were well known in the townships during the time of the unrest.

MNR ODENDAL: Dit is korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: En u was bekend as Dolf Odendal ek meen - mense het u amper almal geken in die woonbuurt, nie waar nie.

INTERPRETER: And you were well known as Dolf Odendal.  All the people in the townships knew you.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: U was by baie optredes betrokke gewees.

INTERPRETER: You were involved in many incidents.

MNR ODENDAL: Ja ek was by baie optredes dis doodreg.

INTERPRETER: Yes, I was.

ADV POTGIETER: En daar is 'n hele klomp verhale wat 'n mens hoor van wat gebeur het waar Dolf Odendal na bewering betrokke was en so aan - amper - u was so bekend was u gewees eintlik maar in die...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: There were many stories which have been told about where  stories about Dolf Odendal being involved.

MNR ODENDAL: En baie verhale wat nie getoets is onder kruisverhoor om te hoor dat dit die waarheid is nie.

INTERPRETER: Many stories have been told yes, but not proved.

ADV POTGIETER: Dis reg - nee-nee ek -  ek se - ek maak nie daai punt nie, ek se nie dis die waarheid nie, maar dis net die beeld wat u gehad het op daai stadium.

INTERPRETER: I am not stating that fact, I am not saying it's the truth, but that was the image that was created.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: U was baie bekend gewees en dit is waarom ek geinteresseerd is hoekom u spesifiek nou ingeroep was in hierdie optrede.  Is dit as gevolg van u rekord van optrede of wat?

INTERPRETER: You were a well known man.  This was why I am interested to know why you were involved in this action.  Was it because of your record of action?

MNR ODENDAL: Nee, ons het baie - is ons ingeroep saam met die Veiligheidspolisie Deursoekingspan   [onduidelik] en ander eenhede.

INTERPRETER: No, not at all.  Often we were called in with the Security Police and other units.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar hulle verkies om u - die tweede in bevel in plaas van - u - hulle het u verkies bo die persoon wat in beheer was van die eenheid.

INTERPRETER: But they prefer you - second in charge to the commanding officer.

MNR ODENDAL: Of die persoon of waar hy gewees het, hy kan miskien op verlof gewees het of op 'n kursus.

INTERPRETER: Where he was at that time, I don't know.  He might have been on a course or he might have been on holiday.  I don't know.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou het u gesien enige persone word geskiet op die toneel?

INTERPRETER: Did you see that any person was hit or was being shot?

MNR ODENDAL: Ek het gesien soos ek reeds in my verklaring gese het, die persoon wat die handgranaat na Kaptein Kleyn gegooi het, hulle het weggehardloop in 'n noordelike rigting - weg.

INTERPRETER: As I have already said in my statement, is the person who threw the hand-grenade at Captain Kleyn, ran away in a northern direction.

MNR ODENDAL: En toe is daar op die persoon geskiet en hy het - een van die persone - toe het die persoon nog weggehardloop het - het geval.

INTERPRETER: And then they fired shots at that person who was running away and that person fell.

ADV POTGIETER: So u  het gesien dat daar word geskiet en een persoon val?

INTERPRETER: So, you saw that people were shooting and one person fell down?

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: U het geen ander persone gesien wat geskiet word nie?

INTERPRETER: You did not see any other person's being shot?

MNR ODENDAL: Nee niemand nie.

INTERPRETER: No, nobody at all.

ADV POTGIETER: U kon uit die aard van die saak nie sien dat dit 'n handgranaat is wat gegooi word nie, nie waar nie?   U was versteek in die bosse.

INTERPRETER: You could not see that it was a hand-grenade that was been thrown, because you were hiding in the bushes.

MNR ODENDAL: Ja maar waar dit gegooi is, ek kan nie die hand wat die beweging oorkom, het dit ontplof, toe weet ek dis 'n handgranaat.

INTERPRETER: I could just see from the movement that this man made and I could see the explosion - after it had detonated.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja maar ek meen dit is eers - dit is eers na die voorval gebeur het - nadat die ding gegooi was en ontplof het wat u nou gedink het, maar dis 'n handgranaat nie terwyl dit gegooi word, nie waar nie.

INTERPRETER: It was only after the hand-grenade had detonated, that you saw it?  You didn't see it being thrown?

MNR ODENDAL: Terwyl dit gegooi word, terwyl die man sy hand uitgehaal het en hy bring hom oor, toe se ek daar gooi hulle 'n handgranaat, alhoewel ek dit nie - dit kan 'n klip ook gewees het, maar toe was 'n ontploffing daarna, toe was dit 'n handgranaat.

INTERPRETER: No, while the man took out his hand and he made this arm movement - I said, there he is throwing it.  It could have been a stone, but then the explosion followed.

ADV POTGIETER: So u was maar net gelukkig gewees, u het reg geraai.

MNR ODENDAL: Reg geraai ja.

INTERPRETER: You were lucky, because you guessed correctly.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou  daai persoon wat u gesien het wat geskiet word, wat nou gehardloop het, het daai persoon enige wapens by hom gehad.

INTERPRETER: That person you saw, being shot, who was running away - was he carrying any weapons?

MNR ODENDAL: Ek kan nie meer onthou nie.

INTERPRETER: I can't remember.

ADV POTGIETER: U kan nie se nie.

MNR ODENDAL: Ek kan nie se nie, kyk u moet verstaan so 'n situasie gebeur vinnig, dis baie vinnig.

INTERPRETER: I can't say.  You have to understand, such a situation occurs very quickly.  Everything happens very quickly.

ADV POTGIETER: Nou saam met u daar in die bosse was Barnard.

INTERPRETER: Together with you, in those bushes, were Barnard,

ADV POTGIETER: En McMaster?

INTERPRETER: McMaster?

MNR ODENDAL: Ek kan nie onthou of McMaster daar saam met my gewees het nie, maar Sterrenberg was saam met my gewees.

INTERPRETER: I can't remember whether he was there too.  Sterrenberg was also there.

ADV POTGIETER: En u het 'n  - het u saam met hulle beweeg van waar u was aan die oostekant van NY1 oor na die westekant toe.

INTERPRETER: And did you move with them from where you were on the eastern side of NY1 to the western side?

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

INTERPRETER: Yes, that's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: En het u op 'n stadium toe nou weg van hulle af beweeg?