Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think his attention at the moment, as I understand it, is merely directed at paragraph 9.8, where a statement is made about him and which indicates, which would suggest what he must have said.  Do you understand?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  I have no problem with that, it's just my learned said
"... where your version is set out"
... and it's definitely not his whole version.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think he may have, ...(indistinct) part of the version I think ...(intervention)

MR DA SILVA: I accept that it's a very concise summary of a version, and I accept for the purposes of these proceedings it's not a full version.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, indeed, yes.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, in that paragraph the following is stated, and I'll read it to you and you can make whatever comment you like.  The following is said
"Standing of the roof (I would accept it's on the roof) of his house, Mr Baloyi saw two armoured police vehicles parked in the veld just west of Thembu Street."
And the point I'm trying to make is that you say you were standing on the roof of your house, your evidence now is that you're standing on the roof of your garage, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was on my stomach.  I would have not just stood upright because they could have spotted me.  And if you get on the roof you would have to walk first before you lie on your stomach.

MR DA SILVA: Alright.  Then the following is said
"The attackers passed by these vehicles on their way back to Kwamadala."
And then the following is said:
"Shortly thereafter, the two Hippos ..."
The words: "Hippos" are used, did you mention the word "Hippo" to your representatives?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There is just one Hippo that returned to Bafokeng Street.  At that time we were loading persons from the Buwa family onto the ambulance.  Those are - that is the Hippo that returned to collect the body.  There were two persons in that Hippo, a white police officer and a black officer.

MR DA SILVA: But I'm trying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr da Silva is asking you is, did you say "Hippo", did you use the word "Hippo" when you made the statement to your attorneys.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As I said before - I beg your pardon with regards to that, I cannot say whether I mentioned it or not, but the word that I know well is "Koyoco".

MR DA SILVA: And then you say the following
"And another two Hippos from within the township followed the attackers back to Kwamadala."
As I interpret this paragraph is that there were four Hippos moving away together.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, that is not what I said.  I have testified from Tuesday ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, you're not being asked at the moment about your evidence before us, do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What you're being asked about is a statement contained in a memorandum which refers to you and mentions two Hippos and another two Hippos.  Do you understand that?  This memorandum was submitted by the attorneys who are acting for the victims, including yourself I believe.  You're not being asked about what you have told us.  What Mr da Silva wants to find out is whether what is contained here is what you said to your attorneys, do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, but the one vehicle that remained was the smaller vehicle, the smaller police vehicle.  So there were four bigger vehicles.

MR DA SILVA: As it pleases.  Mr Baloyi, on reading this document and this paragraph, submitted by your legal representatives, it appears that you said to them that there were four Hippos moving together with the attackers.  Did you at any stage say this to them?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I think I may have, I admit.

MR DA SILVA: So you explained to them that your recollection of the incident that you observed was that while these attackers were moving towards the footbridge, there were four Hippos accompanying them?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The Hippos followed them.  And the Hippos that had been travelling along Umzimvubu reached the robots first and then the ones that had been parked at the gates, the Metal Box gates, joined them and they all proceeded.

CHAIRPERSON: What he wants to find out is, did you tell your legal representative that as the attackers were proceeding towards the footbridge, were they being accompanied by four Hippos?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Is that the question?

MR DA SILVA: That is correct.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know, I may have told them.

MR DA SILVA: I must put it stronger than that, Mr Baloyi, you must have told them because they wouldn't have got this version from anybody else other than you.

UNKNOWN: But the version in paragraph 9.8 doesn't talk about people being followed to the footbridge, it talks about four Hippos following the attackers back to Kwamadala.  And Mr Baloyi has repeated again that the two vehicles moved up towards Umzimvubu towards the robots and the other vehicles moved to join them.  That's all that is recorded here.

CHAIRPERSON: The statement is clear, I don't think there can be any debate about what it says.  The witness has answered the question.

MR DA SILVA: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman. I'll leave it at that, Mr Chairman, it's a matter or argument.
	I'm almost finished, Mr Baloyi.  Yesterday when, or during your cross-examination you made reference to the different colours of the different vehicles that you'd observed in the township, and I just want to read you the notes and what I want to - I want to read you my notes and what I want to get from you is your reference to Vaal Commando.  I've got the following notes:
"The Casspirs are yellow and the pick-up vans are yellow"
I got the impression you were talking about police vehicles.  Then you said:
"The Casspirs have a blue stripe with a blue light"
Then you said the following:
"The Koyoco has a back door"
And then you said:
"Some Koyocos colours is grey and other police Koyocos have a camouflage colour"
Then you said the following:
"The Vaal Commando have a yellow colour"
Now what I want to know firstly, when you were referring to the Vaal Commando, precisely to which vehicles were you referring to?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I usually see Vaal Commando vehicles and I spotted that they were yellow, but as I mentioned yesterday, I do not want to commit myself to the colours because the vehicles are resprayed now and then.  I really mentioned it yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: But you've just told us that it was yellow, didn't you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, sometimes they are white, sometimes they are another colour.  They are sprayed differently each time.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, you said that sometimes they're other colours, what other colours?  You've mentioned white, you've mentioned yellow, what other colour?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't even want to go into that, I don't want to go into the colours.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand what he's conveying is that he doesn't want to commit himself to any particular colour of these motor vehicles because as he says, the colours are changed from time to time.  So he doesn't want to say the motor vehicle was yellow, only to find that the following day it's sprayed white.

MR DA SILVA: Very well, Mr Chairman, I'll leave it then.
	Mr Baloyi, I just want to clarify this aspect, is it your evidence that you saw Vaal Commando vehicles, which are Casspirs and which are yellow?  That's what I want to know from you.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not see them in the township.  If you refer to yellow vehicles, I did not see them in the township.