Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman, maybe I should explain - our structure works in this manner - I think it's important to understand the structure, to understand what I was doing on that day - we have Commissioner Radu as the head of the security department who would sit on the National Directorate where they would take mainly polished decisions and give  orders to us.  I would be the Deputy Head who would be basically operational commander of all ANC security structures.  Under me I would have a head of installations who would be in charge of all ANC installations, ANC offices, houses of the ANC members of the ANC and all other leaders of the alliance we thought needed protection.  His primary responsibility was to ensure that Shell House was secured and that the offices of the provinces were properly secured and all those things.
	I had a conversation with him on the Sunday evening, I gave him certain instructions, he came back to me, he was satisfied that he had spoken to the police and they would get protection.  I, when I came to the office, I was not under the impression that I needed to do anything.  I think it's a very experienced person, very long in the movement, very long in our security department, much longer than I am even and I think he was more than capable to take the necessary steps that's possible.  What concerned me that I received information there was an attack on my arrival and I thought let me go there immediately and make an assessment because I thought that would have an impact on what I have to do at Shell House when I returned.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Why did you personally carry a firearm on that day?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm a security officer, I wear a firearm, we were in times when we were being killed like flies.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Will you use it for self defence?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think that's why we carry firearms.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: As I understand your evidence you were shot at on that day, why didn't you use it?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My evidence is also to the effect that I was in command of a group of armed people, there was a potential attack coming from the corner and I thought that as a commander I should have our objective picture of what was happening, if I participated in the shooting I thought I would lose some of the objectivity and I was happy with the fire power around me and that I would rather be in a position to make the decision when to shoot and when to stop firing, I thought that was more important than for me to shoot because it was not about shooting it was about protection.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Have you observed or attended to other IFP marches before this day?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I've seen many of their marches in town, I don't attend their marches.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: How come you say this is a IFP, what made you decide that this is a IFP march?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think it's common knowledge it's an IFP march.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: I'm asking you is there anything visible that made you believe that it's IFP who was members who were actually marching.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were dressed in the IFP colours a lot of members had IFP regalia.  All the previous marchers, there were many of them in IFP regalia.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Mr Kruser, I want to put it to you that from the video material it is clear that in fact the video material handed in at the inquest and used in evidence it's actually clear that very few members or very few gatherers were indeed clothed in IFP T-shirts or brandishing any other IFP flags etc.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I can tell you I saw many.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: I just want to ask you - regarding the people who were seeking shelter in the Shell House foyer, did you know where they were coming from whether they were part of this group marching?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There were many people who sought shelter as I testified and they were ordinary citizens in the country fleeing from the carnage which was happening in the city and I said yesterday we have an organisation which we think we had an obligation to the people of this country and to offer them protection even though it was very difficult.  There were however, from the report I got, that there were I think two members from the marchers who fled into the building unknowing that they fled.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: I just want to put to you that there was indeed no attack on that day and that you and the guards basically attacked the crowd out of a deep seated hatred for the IFP members and your complete intolerance to other peoples opposing political views?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think the ANC the organisation which brought intolerance in this country, we've brought human rights, we love life that's what why we went to war for it so that you can have a democracy, you have a democracy today.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Mr Kruser, just to end off my questioning, there are many widows and many victims present in this building today listening to your evidence.  Is there anything in particular you want to tell them about how you feel about what happened on that day?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think I said that yesterday and I say it again.  I think we regret the loss of any life.  I regret the loss of any life because I was brought up in that culture and I know how those widows feel, I mean, like all other widows of the other people who were killed in the city on that day and I think for all of them and for people throughout the years of struggle and people who died in Natal - we are sorry for all those deaths that have come.  It's unfortunate that this had to happen.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN HUYSTEEN

MR HUMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've only got one point I would just like Mr Kruser to clarify for me.
	Mr Kruser, I just want to understand your position there that day, you were the commander of the people that accompanied you to the corner of Plein and King George, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think we never explained, what happened - I think I should just explain to give you an understanding of what happened on that day.  The initial deployment of people under normal was done by Andrew Rishlabane who was the head of installations as I explained.  Subsequent to that I - when I got down I was not happy because people, every time marchers came, people were running quite wildly around, there was no organisation because many people were joining from the other sectors of our department security.  I then called another meeting of all the commanders itself and deployed commanders in various positions with groups of people with them, one on the right flank, on the left flank, one immediately, one in the foyer etc.  When the surveillance units, Eddie Khumalo and Mondli Zuma came back to me round - after and reported they had been shot at - I went together with them to the corner and because of my seniority I automatically took commander over the commander who was supposed to be in command at that place.

MR HUMAN: That is what I'm getting at.  Did you expect that the people that accompanied you to that corner would wait for you to give an order to fire?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: No necessarily, I think there was a commander, there were trained people.  If the situation arose and I was not there, I think they would have to make a decision on their own.

MR HUMAN: So what was the need for you to accompany them to the corner?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I received information, there's a group of crowd shooting at my members, advancing to the back of Shell House.  As a trained person I think I had the responsibility to go and see what was happening there, I think it was the obvious thing to do.

MR HUMAN: But would you say that if we look at the ballistics report and Mr Khumalo did fire in fact before you gave the order for warning shots to be fired, that he would have acted without any order from his commander, he would have started firing on that day?