Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-05-22

ANTHONY THOZAMILE NTONI: I tried to apply for different jobs, because in exile I was trying to be a mechanic, but my problem was when I was trying to get a drivers licence I was told by the security people there that I was not supposed to get a drivers licence.  I went to Siphwele in Guguletu, one of the teachers there encouraged me and said that he can try to help me in compiling my CV and sent my CV in town.  They wanted to, me to demonstrate to them that I am really a mechanic.  They saw that I was proficient and they sent me to other places, but the problem was that I did not have a drivers licence, because even in exile while I was trying to get a drivers licence they would cut me off and say that I was not suppose to get a drivers licence.  In my life nothing is progressing now.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I would like now to hand over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Pumla.  You will need to put the headphones on.  I just have one question for you, Mr Ntoni.  Do you know that there have been two Commissions of Enquiry into abuses in the camps called the Montenyani and the Skweye Commissions?

ANTHONY THOZAMILE NTONI: Yes, I did hear about those Commissions, but I heard about them at a wrong time, because when we came back in 1991 in Langa we were told that our problem was well known, but for now they were still, they were, at that time they were still preparing for the elections.  They told us that they would look at our cases after the elections.  I only read from the paper that people were impatient and I though that they would come back to us.  I did not see a need to go back to them, because they promised us that after the elections they would look at our cases.

CHAIRPERSON: So is this the first time that you have been given an opportunity to tell your story?

ANTHONY THOZAMILE NTONI: Yes, this is the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Let me just ask my colleagues if they have any questions.  Mary Burton.

MARY BURTON: Mr Ntoni, one of the things that happens after somebody makes a statement to us is that we ask our Investigative Unit to follow-up and check on the details of what has been told to us and it would help us if you could give us, maybe not now, but at a later stage, the names of somebody who was with you at the time who can testify to your experience.  Would that be possible?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Do you want me to explain, Mary?  People who were there when you were tortured in the camps, someone who was there with you who might be back and give us evidence about what you have told us today.

ANTHONY THOZAMILE NTONI: This would cause a problem for me, because people who were there, people who saw all what was happening, because I was not alone from Langa township, there was another one and others knew Mac, but I went to prison, the other one was recruited and he became a security police.  Some of the people who were tortured with me, rumours about me, some of them are in the National Army.  I do not know, because I heard that the ANC is calling people who were tortured.  Maybe they met with these people, but I would like to say that I am the only person who can come forward with this story and if they can come forward this will cause problems in the organisations.

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla, would you make closing remarks please?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much Wendy.  Just to pursue what Mary Burton has said.  If there could just be some kind of assurance that you were at the camps even though those people were not going to come forward and testify to what you are saying, our investigators will pursue the matter.
 The testimony which you gave us here today shows the way in which children sometimes saw, situations in which children sometimes found themselves which they did not, which they never anticipated because of the way things were.  As you say, there were so many boycotts at the time and it brought about a lot of meaninglessness in your life and made it plain that the only meaningful thing which you could do was to go and join the ranks of the ANC in Umkhonto we Sizwe, but now the sad part that you are relating is that it even that you went to join the organisation which you perceived as holding up some kind of hope for you, you did not go and sacrifice, you saw this as your hope and it seems as though you were terribly disappointed and even back here at home you were disappointed by an organisation which you saw as the one which could provide answers to you for the predicament which you were in and we feel very bad about it and we would like to promise you that, from, on our part, we will pursue this matter and it does not matter if nobody is going to come and testify to corroborate what you are saying, but what is good is that the ANC has come to us and told us about the way people were treated in their camps.  If your name or the name which you say you were given then, called Mad Joe, and also your commander, if you could give us the name of your commander at your camp we would follow up on that.  You have related a very sad story and what I have noted in your testimony is that you say what you found most difficult was that you were given another identity that you could not relate to and that is something that disturbed you very much, it is getting another name.  It just shows that the way in which you ended up there led to a lot of heartache in so many dimensions and we would just like to assure you that we are going to follow up on this thing, on this matter.  I do not know if there anything more you would like to say before we excuse you.

ANTHONY THOZAMILE NTONI: No.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much.