Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-15

CHAIRPERSON: Did you sympathise with it?  While you may not be a card carrying member of that youth organisation, did you follow its principles?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I was a mere supporter.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why were you not a member?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, I believe that when you are said to be a member, you definitely have to have a card, but I didn't have a card because I don't think that committee really had any cards or people who had cards.

MR VAN RENSBURG: It doesn't go about the card only, it goes about attending the meetings, doing what the executive tells you to do, things like that.  Why weren't you part of that?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say he wasn't part of that, he just explained his perception of membership is that you must produce - you must be a card carrying member.  Maybe we must find out if he avoided attending their meetings and activities.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Did you attend the meetings of this Mavunga Youth Congress?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, the only meeting that I remember was the first one, that is the one I attended.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Perhaps you can tell us about that one?  When did it take place and what was discussed?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I can't remember the date because I don't know exactly but what was said in that meeting, what was being discussed was the issue regarding the freedom which people realised they got upon the release of Mandela, that was one week after the release of Mr Mandela and also the fact that there had to be a formation of a congress which will affiliate under the ANC organisation.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you say it was the first meeting of the Mavunga Youth Congress?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, I said that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now, can't we expect that at the first meeting there should be an executive formed, for instance?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensburg, from my experiences on the Commission, when issues like that were formed, the inauguration or when they met to discuss the feasibility of establishing such a committee or organisation did not include the formation of the body.  It was an investigative meeting, with the community and if the community supported a further meeting, then it would be held to formulate all these things.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Muhadi, perhaps you can enlighten us, was that first meeting of the Youth Congress, was it one of those investigative meetings where it was discussed if a body should be formed?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, I believe that it was discussed because, well, there can't be an institution which could not have an executive.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Who was the chairperson at that meeting that you attended?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, I've already said that as it was a first meeting, I cannot say who the chairperson was because I couldn't see any person being elected or chosen.

CHAIRPERSON: (indistinct) about the election, come, let's not play with words.  Who was sitting there in front and taking questions and asking people to explain and making speeches, etcetera?  Who was the person saying 'You can talk' or 'You can talk' or 'You can ask a question?'

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, I can remember Mr Mtangeni, Phungo Mtangeni.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not picking up) person who was the chairperson of that meeting?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Phungo Mtangeni, thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Did you attend the meeting on 6 April?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he only attended one, that was the first one.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Of the Youth Congress, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all.  And he indicated that he was invited to the meeting on the sixth, when he got there it had finished.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I think the evidence that was lead was to the effect that when, on the 6 April, you arrived at the school, the meeting was just over and the people were dispersing, is that correct?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, I didn't really meet the people at the school but the meeting was already dismissed.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not picking up) after the group, on their way to the deceased's house, does it matter whether they were in the school or in the street or nearby the house?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I understand.  Did the people inform you what was discussed at that meeting on the sixth?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, they told me.  We were going to Mr Edward so that he should be begged that he should leave, to be persuaded to leave.  Well, mainly that was just to persuade him to leave.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Just a last question regarding paragraph 12, because you had only attended one meeting I would - would you agree with me or would you say that you cannot give us information about the assistance from the other political organisations that the Youth Congress was involved with?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Could you repeat the question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: (Microphone not picking up) put it to you more simply.  You see, in paragraph 12 there, it says that there was a
"A programme was embarked upon with the assistance from political organisations."
The last line of paragraph 12.

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, what I can say is that on that day, as I remember, the Youth Congress was not the Mavunga Youth Congress, there was another one called Matanga Youth Congress.  It means that there were other people who were assisting that congress.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So you knew about that assistance from the Matanga Youth Congress?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I didn't know.  I only realised it then.  I've said that is was during the first meeting that was held.

MR VAN RENSBURG: When did you realise that there was liaisons and assistance from the other Youth Congress?

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not picking up) at that meeting that he attended, that's when he realised that there was assistance from other organisations.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I will (indistinct).  If we can continue with paragraph 14 now.  I'm reading from the Applicant's statement thereof, or second sentence
"The whole country was at war as they tried to pressurise the government to surrender and release him as we saw him as the Messiah who would deliver us from hell."
You see that sentence there in your statement?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, I can see that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now, you must tell me and, if I'm not correct, but what I deduct from your statement is that all the actions, all the meetings, all the things that you have done for political motive was aimed at the released of Mr Nelson Mandela?

CHAIRPERSON: What makes you say that, Mr Van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I make that deduction from the sentence which says that 'release him' and 'we saw him as the Messiah who would deliver us from hell.'

CHAIRPERSON: That may be so, but I mean the whole crux of his evidence was also that we wanted to incorporated into South Africa.  And we saw the witches as a pillar of support to sustain the Apartheid mechanisms.  I don't think it's fair to put to him that what they did was only for the sole reason of ensuring that Mr Mandela was released.  It can't be the case because his evidence says otherwise.  Even this document says otherwise.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I will also reserve that question then for argument, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Paragraph 15
"Each village identified its own people who were said to be witches and wizards.  At our village the following people had been identified as such."
And then there's a list of the alleged witches and wizards.  What I want to know from you, when were these people identified?  Was it at a meeting, was it just like in the street or how and when were they identified?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's be helpful.  In your affidavit you make this list, when did you find out about the names that you put down here?