Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MR MOERANE: Now that's where I have a bit of a difficulty because if you, the people took a decision to eliminate a person in circumstances which amount to murder and then you present that in your reports as self-defence, you're actually not carrying out orders of superior persons.  Would that be correct?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: So in effect, your unit C1 was actually a law unto itself.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I wouldn't say that, we still acted under instructions, under command.  That was my opinion of the situation.  I cannot see that we acted without any rules or prescriptions.

MR MALAN: I think, Mr Nortje, they way I understand the question reference was not made to the individual, but to the unit, which could take its own decisions or which took its own decisions.  In other words, with reference to the commander of the unit at the time.  I think that is the interpretation of this question if one speaks of the unit.  Would you be able to agree with that?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes.

MR MOERANE: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman, that is what I intended to convey.
	Now who actually enforced any order or discipline?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Mr de Kock.

MR MOERANE: So if a person had done something that Mr de Kock thought was wrong or unacceptable, he would discipline him?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, definitely.

MR MOERANE: Except, I take it, when these things were done by the askaris, which made it very difficult for them to be disciplined.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, well he also disciplined them.

MR MOERANE: Are you aware of the situations where it was impossible to discipline them because disciplining them would have revealed their identity?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, it's difficult to answer this question because I don't really understand what you want me to say.

CHAIRPERSON: I think probably distinguish between informal discipline and departmental discipline, in laying reports and getting in independent investigator etc., legal representation and all that sort of stuff.  I think if you could perhaps distinguish between ...(intervention)

MR MOERANE: Yes, I'm talking about formal disciplining where a report would be submitted, a written report and it would go through ordinary and normal police channels dealing with discipline.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: No, no such disciplinary steps were taken with regard to formal discipline, not that I know of.  Not in the way that the police procedure would operate, that they would be charged of certain transgressions and then receive a fine or anything like that.  There was no such practice.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  In any event that was difficult and it might have led to the disclosure of the askaris and their identities and all that.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, I don't even think that those ideas were considered, to discipline them in such a way, but as you have said, it would have led to other repercussions.  It simply wouldn't have worked.

MR MOERANE: Now let's come to Mr Manzini.  When did you see him for the first time with regard to the events of the 12th?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: It was that afternoon at the Security Branch, after we had arrived there.  I recall that I saw him there for the first time.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Did you go with him and others to the scene?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I would recall that we went to the scene with him, yes.  It remains in my mind, so I assume that we must have done this because I know where the place is, I know that we visited this place during the daytime.  So yes, I do recall it.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  And the place where he was supposed to stop was pointed out to him?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes, that's correct.

MR MOERANE: And the place where the other members who were going to lie in ambush, was also indicated?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I don't believe that it was pointed out to him.  As I recall, there was an electric pole or a telephone pole and I think the pole was the marker of where he was supposed to stop.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  But you see there were other people there, weren't they at the same place and time shown where the persons who were going to commit the ambush would be lying in wait?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I beg your pardon, can you please explain to me what you have asked me, I don't understand you.  Would he have known where we lay in wait, where the staff would have taken up position, the staff that was going to carry out the ambush?

MR MOERANE: Yes.  What I want to find our from you is whether at the time and place when Manzini was shown where he was to stop, the other people were also shown where they were going to lie in wait?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: No, I don't believe that that was discussed at that point, I think it was done when we arrived at the scene with all the members who would have taken up position in the ambush, because we knew that there was the pole and from there the persons were told where the ambush would be.  I don't think that it was spelt out that clearly during the afternoon.

MR MOERANE: Do you recall what recall what was said to Manzini, as to what he should do?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I forgot about the indicator light, but I recall, as a result of the evidence which came to light, that he was given the instruction to switch on the indicator if there were weapons in the vehicle and that he would jump out and run.  Vermeulen said something about urination, I think that he was supposed to use that as an excuse to stop.  He would have to tell them "I need to urinate", and that would be the reason why he would stop.  I'm not certain, but I think that those were the things that were said to him, those were the instructions that he received.

MR MOERANE: Well isn't one of the problems, Mr Nortje, that the truth in this matter has been mixed up with a lot of lies, difficult to remember?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Well I can simply tell you from my perspective, I'm trying to put it as clearly as possible.  The versions from the other persons differ and I cannot explain that, this is simply the way that I remember it.

MR MOERANE: You see because in your statement in support of your application for amnesty, you do not mention the question of the flickering of lights.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: I did not leave it out on purpose, I didn't think about that minute detail at that stage.

MR MOERANE: If you'll bear with me.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOERANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Moerane.  Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, do you have any re-examination?

MR LAMEY: Chairperson, I want to ask one question in re-examination, but I omitted just two short aspects to deal with that in-chief, which I ...
	What was your rank at that time?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Sergeant.

MR LAMEY: And did you receive any remuneration above and beyond your usual salary for your participation in this incident?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: No, not that I know of.

MR LAMEY: And then in cross-examination a question was put to you with regard to instructions for illegal operations.  I just want to put it to you, are you aware with regard to the command structure above Col de Kock, that there was an overall commander at head office?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And before this incident you were also involved in illegal operations such as for example, the Lesotho operation and the Cosatu House operation.

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Do you know whether those operations, which were also illegal, were approved from any level above Mr de Kock?

WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: Definitely.

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey.  Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions?