Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, I wouldn't know because I didn't have a gun.  I therefore wouldn't know where came this gun shot.

MR PATEL: You were moving away from the disco and you came across Obed, is that correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We came across Obed on our way from the disco, but at the time we didn't realise it was him because of the distance.  I only realised it was Obed when we met him at the hospital.

MR PATEL: When you came across this person at the disco, did you see Khaba doing any shooting?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: You mean when we met Obed?

MR PATEL: Yes?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I saw him shooting at the hospital, but I didn't see him shooting at the disco.

MR PATEL: After the incident at the disco, what happened then?  Were any of you injured from the shots that were fired?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Dumsani was shot in the leg, I think his left thigh and we had to rush him home, because he too resided at the Extension.  We took him there from whence he was to be taken to hospital.

MR PATEL: Yes, and where did you take him to?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We took him to his home, his parents' home.

MR PATEL: Can you tell the Committee how it came to be that you went to the hospital thereafter?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: When we left Extension, we went to the Wesselton township where we used to live and informed Mrs Nkosi what had transpired.  She rushed to the hospital to establish what was happening about Dumi, she came back with the information that Black Cats were on their mission to finish him off and we rushed to the hospital.

MR PATEL: Finish who off?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Dumsani, the same person who was shot on the thigh.

MR PATEL: I see.  So you then went to the hospital with Khaba, is that correct?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: And tell the Committee what happened when you got there?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: When we arrived at the hospital, we spoke to him and he did indicate that yes, such people were here at the hospital.
	Thereafter Bongani Khaba pretended as if he is one of the Black Cat members saying to one of the nurses that he wanted to see Obed.

MR PATEL: Yes, and then?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: They gave us the ward number and we proceeded towards the ward, we found him there and we ...

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Would you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think was going to happen there when you people went?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I thought that we would meet some of the Black Cats there and we would be in a position to protect Dumi.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Khaba not discuss this issue with you when he told the nurses that he was a member of the Black Cats and he wanted to go see Obed?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: No, he did not.  I was busy talking to Dumi at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, is this a convenient stage?

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
LIVINGSTONE M. LUKHELE: (still under oath)

MR PATEL: (continued)   Mr Lukhele, I think we were at the stage where Obed had ascertained from one of the nursing sisters to where, I mean Khaba had ascertained from one of the nursing sisters as to where Obed was.  What happened then?

CHAIRPERSON: Exactly what did he ask the nurse?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Bongani Khaba asked the nurse where Obed was, in which ward he was because the hospital is big.
	He was pretending to be a Black Cat member.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know Obed was in the hospital?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We knew when we arrived at the hospital because Mrs Nkosi had already told us.

CHAIRPERSON: What did she tell you?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: In her explanation special reference to Dumi, she indicated that Dumi was in danger now that he was in hospital, because the Black Cats were also bringing their member, Obed to the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  Now, having obtained this information, what transpired then?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: As I have explained, we arrived at the hospital and we did what we could to get to his bed, hospital bed.  We also discovered that there was another ANC member apart from Dumi who was, I think he had a broken leg.

MR PATEL: Did you and Khaba get to the ward where Obed was?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Please tell the Committee what happened in the ward.

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: On entering the ward, we realised that there were many beds.  We located him and Mr Khaba started shooting him.

MR PATEL: Was Mr Khaba successful in his attempts?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: As a soldier Obed was trying to duck and dive, but he could not because obviously the bullet is faster than he was.

MR PATEL: What part did you play?  Did you do anything?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes.  I was stabbing him.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Committee how many times you stabbed him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I do not remember.  It may have been twice or three times.

CHAIRPERSON: Where on his body did you stab him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: He was trying to block the knife as I was stabbing him.  I think I stabbed him on the shoulders.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not sure you stabbed him?  You may have stabbed at him, did you inflict any injuries?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I think I succeeded because I was not in the position to distinguish between the blood that came out as a result of the gunshot or the stabbing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you stab him after he was shot or before?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, I stabbed him after he had been shot.

CHAIRPERSON: In which part of his body was he shot?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: I could not see some of the gashes, I was just stabbing.

CHAIRPERSON: Where about in his body did the bullets penetrate?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: The obvious ones were in the hands, where blood was oozing and there was another blood oozing from his head, but I didn't know where about in the head.    There were no signs of bullet holes on his face.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say despite being shot, he was able to ward off stabbing?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: He had not died at the time when I was stabbing him, because he was trying to block as I was stabbing him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Patel?

ADV BOSMAN: Did you see the firearm which Mr Khaba used?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: What type of firearm was it?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: It was a 9 mm.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you have any idea where he got it from, did he ever tell you?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We never discussed that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you stab him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: We were trying to make sure that Dumi is protected so that his fellow Inkatha members should not find him at the hospital, so that we could protect our ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason you stabbed him?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: That is not the only reason.  And also that he was problematic to the community, having been a member of Inkatha and it had already been discussed because he is problematic, he too should be eliminated.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were aware of that plan?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: As I have explained, ourselves as the youth within the ANC were conducting our own research so as to identify people who were problematic, apart from going to Mzwandile to get information about people who were problematic.

MR PATEL: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.    Apart from Obed, was anybody else identified as being problematic?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: Yes, it was Bongani Malinga.

MR PATEL: Anybody else you can remember?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: There is another third one, but I cannot recall his name.

MR PATEL: Let's look at the second offence, the murder of Bhe Malinga.  Who was he?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: He was a Policeman.

MR PATEL: Could you just briefly explain to the Committee how this offence was, the circumstances of this offence?

LIVINGSTONE M LUKHELE: How should I explain it, on the day of the offence?