Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

ADV MEMANI: Did you not come to hear about him being injured?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I heard that there was an informer who was stabbed but I did not know him.  I knew nothing of him and I did not want to get more details because I had more problems at my work.

ADV MEMANI: Didn't you hear that he was taken to Mr Venter's house?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I never heard anything about it, not Mr Venter's name.  I only heard that there is a person who was stabbed by the students.

ADV MEMANI: Now, didn't you drive him to Mr Venter's house?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I repeat, not at all, I don't have any association with Ngo and I do not know where Mr Venter stayed.

ADV MEMANI: Now, don't you know that Tswametsi too came to Venter's house?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I want to explain this.  I told you that we worked in departments, I did not know what the other department was doing.  I did not know this Venter and I did not know anything about Tswametsi department.

UNKNOWN: Mr Memani, a moment ago you put it to him that he drove Ngo to Venter's house, now you're putting it to him: "Don't you know that Tswametsi took him to Venter's house".  Was it on the same occasion or who in fact took him, was it Tswametsi, the witness or was it different occasions you're talking about?

ADV MEMANI: I will clarify that now Mr Commissioner. Now if I could ask a few questions it will become clear, I'll make it clearer.
	Do you know that Tswametsi took him to Mr Venter's house?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not know.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know that Mamome took him to Mr Venter's house?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not know.

ADV MEMANI: Now, did you hear at all that members of the security branch had taken the informer to live with some white person somewhere?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I never heard that.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Ngo testified that it was yourself, Tswametsi and Mamome who took Ngo to Venter's house.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That's pure lie.

ADV MEMANI: Now, ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

UNKNOWN: Are you talking about the day of the murder, the day when at first he went there, when did they take him?

ADV MEMANI: I thought it is clear Mr Chairman, that I'm dealing with the incident when he was injured, I'm sorry if it is not clear enough.

CHAIRPERSON: What's the reference please?

ADV MEMANI: M'Lord I must look and find it first. Mr Chair ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Mbanjani, as and when you heard - apparently from your colleagues, that this informer had been stabbed and so on, was it not also mentioned that appropriate steps were taken to accommodate him at a safer place?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Not at all.  We were told that the informer was stabbed but it was never told further what happened thereafter.

UNKNOWN: At the stage when you heard he was stabbed, where were you stationed?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: ...[no English translation]

UNKNOWN: Ja, I think I can put it to you because I think it's common cause that he was stabbed either in 1985 or in 1984.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: At that time I was still working in Botshabelo.  Chairperson, can I ask something?  Chairperson, can I please ask something?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I realised that I'm being asked questions about things I was not informed that I did.  I'm now being questioned deeply, I'm asking myself what's happening because the person who wrote this could have written down everything.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been questioned now by the Advocate who's appearing by the two applicants and they wish to get as much information as they can, which they consider might help their clients case.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, do you require the notes now or can we look for the passage overnight?

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to see it when you're putting it to this witness, you've put something specific to him.

ADV MEMANI: Okay Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we don't have the reference but of course the evidence - what is totally incorrect according to the evidence. The evidence was, of Ngo, he left on instructions of Shaw, Erasmus and Coetzee.  He was transported by Mamome and Ramouseau to this house.  He later went to the Hamilton shooting range with Ramouseau where he met Shaw and he was taken, at the time of the murder that evening ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: No, but he's not ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about when he was stabbed Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: I'm terribly sorry Mr Chairman.  In defence of myself Mr Chairman, I have a technical problem because I couldn't hear.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can't find it, perhaps you better get on with something else.

ADV MEMANI: Perhaps I should not put that aspect now until I get the relevant passage M'Lord.
	Mr Mbanjani, Mr Ngo has testified that when Mr Venter was killed they borrowed a Mazda 4 X 4 from you.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so.  Can you please complete the question, where was I at that time?

ADV MEMANI: I think the evidence was that - we took it, that same made car a 4 X 4, drove to S Section in Botshabelo to a certain house.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you own a 4 X 4, a Mazda 4 X4?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I have never had a 4 X 4 car while I was in the services of the SAP.  I was working in Bloemfontein, I was not in Botshabelo on the date he is referring to.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Mbanjani, I did not hear your answer to the question that was put now about whether you owned a 4 X 4 before.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I said I have never had a 4 X 4.

ADV MEMANI: And were you in any way - have you ever driven a 4 X 4 that belonged to the State?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I've never driven a 4 X 4.

ADV MEMANI: But you worked at a police station isn't it?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Which year are you referring to Sir, because I said in 1986 I was in Bloemfontein and when I was in Bloemfontein I did not have a car because I was working administration and I do not know a 4 X 4.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Mbanjani, do you know the 4 X 4 that was usually driven by Sergeant Coetzee?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: The car that we had was not a 4 X 4, it was an Izuzu lorry and it belonged to Adjudant Botha.  It is the lorry I remember, I don not remember a 4 X4.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Mbanjani, I asked the question: "Do you know a 4 X 4 that was driven usually by Sergeant Coetzee, now why do you go and tell me about Botha's Izuzu?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not know a 4 X 4 that was driven by Coetzee.

ADV MEMANI: Now my instructions are that this 4 X 4 was usually driven by Sergeant Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was he stationed?

ADV MEMANI: I'll get those instructions M'Lord.
	Now, do you know Sergeant Coetzee who was stationed at Botshabelo?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not know him.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there's a misunderstanding here, the pronunciation is a problem and I refer you to his evidence in chief.  It's not a Coetzee pronunciation, it's the other one, the Kotze pronunciation.

CHAIRPERSON: Kotze?

MR VISSER: That's why I think the witness is misunderstanding my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know a Sergeant Kotze?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I knew Kotze, I was working with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: In Botshabelo.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he stay there after you came to Bloemfontein?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Yes, he stayed behind.

ADV MEMANI: Do you remember the 4 X 4 that he used to drive?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Seeing that I do not know cars, I - but I still remember he was driving an Izuzu but I do not remember well but the car that I remember is an Izuzu.

ADV MEMANI: I must say Mr Mbanjani, that you are being evasive.

MR VISSER: I object to that Mr Chairman, there's absolutely no ground nor any basis for that statement made by my learned friend.

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that you are being evasive.