Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier you've heard testimony with regardto Make, Makope and Sefola, in that particular case would youhave said that the actions of Captain Hechter would have beena case where he acted with his own discretion?

ANSWER: Yes it would have been.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you ever see Mr Make?

ANSWER: No, I did not know him at all.

<UNKNOWN>: Who at that time recruited your informantsfor the Section?

ANSWER: Every Section recruited its own informants sothere wasn't a particular person who would have recruited informants.  The Black Power movement would have recruited their own informants.  The white union, the labour union unit, the churches unit etc.

<UNKNOWN>: We've heard, I'm not quite sure what the rankwas but of a certain I think Captain Van Wyk, W/O Van Wyk.  DidW/O Van Wyk work in your section?

ANSWER: Yes he did.

<UNKNOWN>: Did he do recruiting for you or was he notresponsible for recruiting?

ANSWER: Every member had the task of recruiting
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informants.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, the handling of informants was aparticular person responsible for handling a particular informant?

ANSWER: Only the person who recruited an informant orif he was transferred then one other person would have dealt witha particular informant.

<UNKNOWN>: So that would have been the only person withwhom the informant was supposed to have contact?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, the discussions at the Joint ManagementSystem, would that primarily have referred to the eliminationof activists or would it have referred to a wider range of acts,my apologies I'm referring to trevits, I'm asking you whetherdiscussions at trevits whether you know whether it only concernedeliminations or whether the discussions there also covered a widerrange of topics?

ANSWER: It would only have been with regard to targetsand eliminations.

<UNKNOWN>: At the Joint Management Systems, the JMS?

ANSWER: No there the discussion was the broader, moregeneral circumstances in the country.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier you sometimes received instructionsfrom your commanding officers, is that correct?   If you receivedan instruction to handle a certain operation on the grounds ofcertain information, would you have expected that your officerswould on the grounds of that information, handle it?

ANSWER: I would have believed that they would have alreadyhad that information.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier if some of your inferiors would
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receive instructions from other people in higher rank than them,who was not you based on certain information and if they got aninstruction to act on certain information, and that informationwas given to them and that that was the information they weresupposed to act on, were they expected to verify that information?

ANSWER: Not if they knew that person very well, likein the example of Basie Smit, he was a complete stranger theydid not trust him and they did not act on his instructions.

<UNKNOWN>: Would it have been strange if they acted, likein the case of Basie Smit, with the mandrax tablets?

ANSWER: Yes it would have been.

<UNKNOWN>: In other words Brigadier, if I understood youcorrectly, if somebody else in a commanding position came to CaptainHechter and said that he had information that somebody acted inthis or that way and that he was an activist and that these andthese things, would it not have been important to verify that?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: You also said, you testified about the instructionsof Brigadier Victor and Brigadier Schoon and that in your viewthe correctness of the action regarding the Zero handgrenade wasverified.   Were there also other things that strengthened thisimpression of yours?

ANSWER: Yes the instructions I got to handle operationsacross the border.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you identify them?

ANSWER: Yes, the attack in Swaziland which instructionwe received from General Strydom, Steenkamp apologies.   I receiveda award in that regard.

<UNKNOWN>: You are asking for amnesty in that regard but
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was that particular instruction to eliminate someone in Swaziland?

ANSWER: Yes it was.

<UNKNOWN>: Then you received a medal for that action,when was this broadly speaking, was it before the Zero handgrenade?

ANSWER: This was in 1983 already.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, how did you view the state of war,what was your view on the state of war, was this war initiatedby the security forces and countered by the freedom or liberationmovements or was it initiated by the liberation movements andcountered by the security forces.  How did you view it?

ANSWER: Let me put it to you in this way, the war wasstarted by the liberation organisations, by the ANC, by terroristsfrom neighbouring countries who were sent to South Africa.   Therewere various landmine incidents on the borders, farms who wereattacked, farmers who were killed, it was that first phase ofwhat would then follow, the war would later extend inside thecountry.   The security forces countered the war, they were inthe defensive position.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier I want to refer you to a particulardocument, to a document with regard to the situation of war, thestate of war and the questions of Mr Curran in that regard.  You have certain documents with you, I want to refer you to thepresentation of the ANC with regard to Human Rights violations.  (COPIES OF DOCUMENT HANDED UP).

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman I have already made copies of the whole documentwhich I intend to deal with during argument right at the end ofthe hearings.

JUDGE WILSON: : We wish to request that you make a copy
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available to the interpreters.

MR DU PLESSIS: : I am sorry Mr Chairman I have one copy,not a copy available for them I'm sorry, I forgot about that MrChairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The document we are now talking about thatyou will refer to, that was of the representations made by theANC?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes Mr Chairman.   There are various otherdocuments which I'm going to use now which I will also providein total during argument.   I'm only relying in re-examinationon specific paragraphs and specific pages of the documents.  My secretary has been making copies throughout last week and thisweek about full-time Mr Chairman.   That would be "L",thank you Mr Chairman.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier Cronje could you look at the firstpage, that is page 52, what I want you to do Brigadier Cronjeis on page 52 to read to the Committee from the ANC's presentationand I want you to read on the right-hand column, the 4th paragraphwhich begins "by the end of 1985..."   Please read untilI stop you.   Could you please read loudly?
ANSWER:
  "...an official ANC pamphlet entitled 'take the struggleto the white areas' was distributed inside the country.   Targetswere identified as the racist army.   Death squads, agents andstooges in our midst and..."
I am unable to read the next word:
  "...and the will to take the war to the white areas isdefined as follows;
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  strengthening our workers, organisations and engaging a unitedaction in factories, mines, farms and suburbs;
  spreading the consumer boycott to all areas of the country;
  organised and well-planned demonstrations in white suburbs andcentral business districts;
  forming underground units and combat groups in our places ofwork and taking such actions as sabotage in the factories, mines,farms and suburbs and disrupting the enemy's oil energy, transport,communications and other vital systems;
  a systematic attack against the army and police and the so-calledarea defence units in the white areas;
  well-planned raids on the armouries and dumps of the army, police,farmers and so on to secure arms for our units;"