Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

DR KLATZOW: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You see at the Margo enquiry Mr Du Toit would have no reason to lie or to fabricate.  He said certain things which you are contradicting flatly?

VERNON NADEL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Those things are incidentally the following.  There is a procedure that is correct and this normally gets done and if that fails then we contact by any  other international station like Speedbird, London and ask them to contact the aircraft.  Is that not true?

VERNON NADEL: I am aware of that.  That statement was made at the Margo Commission as well and I flatly refute that.  There is no such a standing order.

DR KLATZOW: And if the aircraft in this particular instance does not call back then there's a duty on the officer to make contact on any other frequency and Du Toit says affirmative.

VERNON NADEL: That is correct.  You try all the frequencies but there's no standing order.

DR KLATZOW: And if you couldn't get through you'd approach another airline to try and get hold of them?

VERNON NADEL: I know that's what he said but it's not true.

DR KLATZOW: It's not true?

VERNON NADEL: No.

DR KLATZOW: So in the eventuality of an aircraft ending up in the South Atlantic, I as a passenger have the happy prospect of waiting 'til I'm overdue before you people did anything about it?

VERNON NADEL: As I mentioned earlier on, I think there was two airlines in the world that had this facility, British Airways and South African Airways.  No other airlines have this facility.  It's not a legal requirement.  The aircraft talks to air traffic control centres throughout and they are the people that normally initiate any search and rescue if there is a problem.

DR KLATZOW: And the period of non contact with a plane when it is due to contact you once every hour or hour and a half, four or five hours goes by and you can't pick them up however hard you try and this doesn't perturb you?

VERNON NADEL: No.

DR KLATZOW: It didn't perturb you at all?

VERNON NADEL: Because this is not a, as I said earlier on it's not a requirement by airlines.  There's two airlines in the world that have this facility.  If you look at all the other mega carriers, they don't have this facility.

DR KLATZOW: With great respect Mr Nadel if the duty of the airline is to call you and if there are instructions to call that aircraft back if you can't raise or if they don't raise you and that fails to happen for five hours you are not perturbed by it?

VERNON NADEL: But those instructions do not exist.  Where Mr Du Toit or Mr Dick got those from I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Did you give evidence at the Margo Commission?

VERNON NADEL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Did you tell Judge Margo that those instructions don't exist?

VERNON NADEL: I believe I did yes.

DR KLATZOW: Were you cross examined on that?

VERNON NADEL: I believe so yes.

DR KLATZOW: Did Mr Southwood who was leading the evidence for the State ever say to you, Mr Nadel I believe you're making all this up?

VERNON NADEL: I believe he did say that yes.

DR KLATZOW: Why would he say that to you Mr Nadel?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: I want to put it to you that he has the same feeling that I have as I am cross examining you now.  That you are saying these things and that they did not occur.

VERNON NADEL: I actually have a briefing notice with me of the procedures to follow as far as making contact with aircraft and I would be happy to give you a copy.

DR KLATZOW: I would like a copy please.  Mr Nadel, one of the things that has to be done is that the logbook has to be signed in.  Is that not correct?

VERNON NADEL: Whoever hands over to the other person, the logbook is signed yes.

DR KLATZOW: Did you ever see the log book for the, have you ever had a look at that logbook?

VERNON NADEL: I have seen it at the enquiry I believe yes.

DR KLATZOW: Could you give me an explanation as to why, that logbook was never tampered with?

VERNON NADEL: I don't believe so, no.

DR KLATZOW: And it is an official document, an important document?

VERNON NADEL: I think it's an important document as far as keeping record of what actually transpired.

DR KLATZOW: And the signature of the man filling it in appears at the bottom of the page?

VERNON NADEL: I seem to recall yes.

DR KLATZOW: Can you give me an explanation why Mr Du Toit's signature appears on pages which he never filled in?

VERNON NADEL: Actually yes I can.

DR KLATZOW: Let me hear it.

VERNON NADEL: Mr Du Toit was actually a strange gentleman.  And he would come on duty and sign three or four pages with the idea that we would be filling them in as he goes along.  And that is the explanation that I can give you.

DR KLATZOW: Why would he do that?

VERNON NADEL: It was  just his mannerism.  He used to do it all the time.

DR KLATZOW: Was that ever crossed out?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: You saw the document?

VERNON NADEL: I cannot recall.

DR KLATZOW: If you'd filled in those pages would you have crossed it out?

VERNON NADEL: I would probably have signed my name either over it or next to it or crossed it out, sure.

DR KLATZOW: Did you do that?

VERNON NADEL: I wasn't responsible for filling out the logbook.

DR KLATZOW: Who was?

VERNON NADEL: Mr Dick.

DR KLATZOW: We deal with another issue for the moment.  How would you describe your job there.  Would you describe it as a senior position in the airline, would you describe it as a fairly junior position at that time?

VERNON NADEL: I would say bordering on becoming more senior.

DR KLATZOW: More senior?

VERNON NADEL: Well bordering on becoming more senior.

DR KLATZOW: What does that mean in answer to my question.  Were you or were you not a junior?

VERNON NADEL: I was a junior yes.

DR KLATZOW: And what is your position now?

VERNON NADEL: I am manager for South America.

DR KLATZOW: What was your position in Miami?

VERNON NADEL: I was manager for Miami.

DR KLATZOW: Area manager?

VERNON NADEL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Is that a senior position?

VERNON NADEL: Middle management.

DR KLATZOW: What was your salary at ZUR?

VERNON NADEL: I cannot recall.

DR KLATZOW: Roughly?  Did you earn hundreds, thousands or millions?

VERNON NADEL: Thousands.

DR KLATZOW: How many thousands?

VERNON NADEL: I can't recall.

DR KLATZOW: What was your salary in Miami?  Was it a substantial increase?

VERNON NADEL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: How much increase?

VERNON NADEL: I can't.

DR KLATZOW: Double, treble?

VERNON NADEL: I wouldn't want to speculate no.

DR KLATZOW: Mr Nadel I want to put it to you, it's very strange.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not, with respect Mr, you are not being asked to speculate.  I mean you are being asked to give an indication.  I think there is a point here and I am sure you will appreciate in due course.  Unless you have a very good reason why you should not give us an indication or an explanation but we are certainly not asking you to speculate what your salary is.
 You know what your earnings are.  You know what your earnings then were and as I say there is a point that he wants to converse with you.  So if you could be frank about your earnings and the difference between your earnings between then and now, it might assist us to get over this point.  I wouldn't like us to waste more time on the issue.  So if you can give us any indication of what your earnings were then and what your earnings are now, then we will quickly get over this point.

VERNON NADEL: Okay.  If I can just go back a moment then.  From my position at the time I moved through the ranks not very quickly.  Reasonably slowly.  It wasn't from one day to the next that I became manager for Miami.  I became manager for Miami in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact that's the point I am sure that is going to be made, that you seem to have had a meteoric rise after the Helderberg incident and you see what then would be the basis for that.