Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

UNKNOWN: The car was not left there by Mr Venter, it was brought by Constable Ngo to Mamelodi barracks.

ADV MEMANI: And for how long did he keep it there?

UNKNOWN: Around three weeks or a month.

ADV MEMANI: And you said that then Mr Venter arrived, looking for the car?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: How did he get to speak to you?

UNKNOWN: He sought me or he saw the Commander of the barrack, then he met me.

ADV MEMANI: Were you the first person then when he communicated with when he was looking for the vehicle?

UNKNOWN: When he appeared, he came straight to me.  I don't know as to whether he was directed by people, that the Commander's office is that one or he knew that it was PA3, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: You see, in your evidence in chief you told us that he went to Ngo's Commander who then referred him to you.

UNKNOWN: I am the Commander at the barracks, there is no other Commander at the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: Ngo's Commander according to you, would have been Unit 19, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: At that time he was working under my supervision, then he came from Unit 19, we should not mix the two.  He came from Unit 19 and then he worked under my supervision.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, sorry that I have taken so long to intervene here.  My learned friend, Mr Memani stated that Captain Khoja testified that Mr Venter was referred to Captain Khoja by the Commander of Unit 19.
	Now, we didn't have the record, we borrowed Mr Brink's record.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say he was referred by the Commander of Unit 19.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, the only place I can find in the record where there is reference to a Commander is on page 1125, where he says when he arrived at Mamelodi he requested and then it says indistinct Commander, then he was able to trace me, then he found me at the barracks, that was what Captain Khoja testified.
	I just want to clear that up so that there is no misunderstanding.

CHAIRPERSON: It is part of the record.  There can be no misunderstanding.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani is going to argue that what that means is (a), and you are going to argue it means (b).

MR DU PLESSIS: Correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The witness has explained that he was the Commander at the barracks, and the person may have been referred to him because the indistinct, unfortunately nobody cleared it up at the time, may have been he requested the name of the Commander.  Then he was able to trace me, it could be 101 things.
	At the time, I don't think anybody thought it was of any importance and it was not investigated then.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I just want to show that the witness didn't necessarily contradict himself, thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Khoja, my instructions are that Mr Venter had dark hair.

UNKNOWN: That is okay, but I didn't see it as black, I saw it as the same as Mr Britz' hair.

ADV MEMANI: And furthermore my instructions are that he was very slender and very short.

UNKNOWN: I agree with you, because I am short.  I said he might be a little bit taller than me, as compared to me.

ADV MEMANI: You are not very slender, aren't you?

UNKNOWN: I am slender.  You see me.

ADV MEMANI: I see your legal representatives are laughing at that suggestion.

UNKNOWN: I don't know, because I am slender.

ADV MEMANI: And he was shorter than you?

UNKNOWN: That is not correct.  If I remember well, the time I was standing with him, I was able to look up which means he was taller than me.

ADV MEMANI: And I am further told that months before his death, he had a blue Cressida.

UNKNOWN: I don't know that one, I know the white Toyota Cressida.

ADV MEMANI: What happened to the white Toyota Cressida?

UNKNOWN: It was driven by Constable Ngo, he used to come home with it, I don't know what happened.

ADV MEMANI: Now, my instructions are that initially - I will retract the question for the time being to take instructions My Lord.
	Now, Mr Khoja, when Mr Venter came and complained about his car, did he get it before he left?

UNKNOWN: He didn't get it, Constable Ngo was not present.

ADV MEMANI: He obviously then left without the car.  Now, how long after that did Ngo return the car?

UNKNOWN: He didn't take a long time because Ngo returned from work, then I gave him the information that Mr Venter wanted his car back.

ADV MEMANI: Did he complain to you about ...

UNKNOWN: Yes, he was complaining to me, he told me that.

ADV MEMANI: And he was saying that he took the vehicle without his permission, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: He said he gave him the car so that he should come to work, and then he must bring it back.  He is surprised that Ngo is not returning the car.

ADV MEMANI: I see.  Then it was not correct to suggest to Mr Ngo that Mr Venter had complained that he had taken the vehicle without his permission?

UNKNOWN: They agreed from in Bloemfontein that Ngo would take the car to Mamelodi, when he arrived at Mamelodi, he must return the car on a particular date.   That is the information I received from Mr Venter.

ADV MEMANI: Presumably the fact that it was taken with his permission and it was an arrangement between Mr Ngo and Mr Venter that led to Mr Ngo being in possession of the vehicle, you did not record the fact of Mr Venter's visit in the occurrence book?

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't record the visit.  It was not an official visit.  In the occurrence book we register official occurrences, not anything which happens at the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: But it would have been serious enough to warrant recording in the occurrence book, isn't it, if Mr Venter had complained that Mr Ngo had effectively stolen his vehicle and was keeping it.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I have to object against that.  Mr Khoja testified now and he testified last time, he said Mr Venter explained to me that he has a problem, that he lent Ngo his car, that he is coming to Pretoria and then he was supposed to return the car on a particular day and the car was, I think it should have been, not returned.
	Now, Captain Khoja never testified that he said that he had stolen the car.

ADV MEMANI: The objection is ill-founded.  I haven't said that this witness testified that.  I did not say that he said that.
	Secondly I am saying that the fact that there was an arrangement between the two parties accounts for the fact that it was not recorded in the occurrence book and all I need from him is a yes or a no.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MEMANI: You told us in your evidence in chief, that you met Mr Ngo immediately after he graduated from college.

UNKNOWN: That is not correct.  Those dates are different, I would not say immediately after his completion of police training.  There were dates, appointment dates, passing out dates, there were dates which were used for arrivals at the barracks.  The dates are many  which appear there.

ADV MEMANI: In fact your evidence is that he started, he probably started living in the barracks where you lived in ...

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I interpose here.

ADV MEMANI: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: I would like my learned friend ...

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I am saying something and this is not justified.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I would like my learned friend to indicate in the record to us where exactly does he get that evidence, because I am objecting against misleading the Committee, misleading the witness and misleading everybody else about what was testified previously.

CHAIRPERSON: Where in the record does he say it was immediately after he left the College.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I was about to put to this witness that his evidence was that Mr Ngo joined the barracks in February 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: And that is just soon, soon after he graduated from college.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you put to him that he said Ngo joined soon after he graduated from college.  He didn't say that, did he?