Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo was seriously injured and at that stage you knew that he was with Mr Venter.  Mr Ngo said that after he had been injured you indeed made the arrangements for him to go and stay with Mr Venter, a safe haven for him, to find that there.  Is that true.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Chair I was with my parents on the farm, I definitely did not make the arrangements for him to be taken from hospital to Mr Venter's house, I found him there that sunday evening.

JUDGE WILSON: Can you give us some idea of how long before the injury it was when you met him at Venter's, Venter came out that night, how long was that before he was injured?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair that was quite some time, definitely not less than six months.  It could have been, probably was by the middle of 1984 that this occurred.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Thank you Mr Chairman, we know that Mr Ngo was transferred to a school in 1985.  Did you have anything to do with those arrangements?  And to which town's school was he transferred?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I definitely accepted responsibility to this person, I made arrangements to depart to Bloemfontein and he departed to Ladybrand where he completed his schooling.

MR VISSER: And we are aware that it was in December 1985 that he completed his matric at Ladybrand.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct Chair.

MR VISSER: During 1985 a trial also took place with regard to his injury.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I was not at the trial in the sense that I suspect that the trial took place while I was on officers' course.

MR VISSER: I don't wish to ask you questions about it  but I just want to put the facts in chronological order for the committee.
	Okay  1986, we'll continue with the chronological order.  P27.2; if we look at that exhibit.  On the 10th of February 1986, he was appointed as - we are referring to page 63 bundle B Mr Chair, he was appointed as a student constable.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes that's correct Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Perhaps we don't understand clearly how you worked Mr Erasmus but will you please tell us?
   Well it appears that on the later date, on the 11th of March 1986, page 65 of the same bundle, he was sworn in when he took the oath. Was it possible for a policeman to be appointed and then later take the oath.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chair this is not correct.  Upon attestation you are sworn in a member of the South African Police, the oath mentioned there.

MR VISSER: It's my conclusion that this is the official oath upon being allowed into the Security Branch for service, it's an oath of secrecy that is taken.
	Okay that helps explain my own confusion.  
Okay from 10 February 1986 Mr Ngo was then a student constable and he was attached and he was on attached service at the Security Branch.  Now the oath referred to that is the oath of secrecy referred to on Exhibit B 27.4.  I think it is logical but could you please tell us, if a person was employed in the Security Branch, this oath which he took, could you please tell us with reference there to exactly what it involved?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: The Act at that stage, or the law, yes it was the Official Secrets Act which was replaced by the Protection of Information Act applied.  Then there was a special Force order...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Have you seen the document at B 65, it bears no relation to the Official Secrets Act, it bears Record of Service.  Could somebody show the witness?

MR VISSER: Thank you for drawing our attention to that Mr Chairman, you're absolutely correct.  I apologise for the oversight.
	My you first statement you had then been corrected.  It appears as if on Exhibit P 27.2 that although the writer alleges that he is a member from 10 February it is apparent from page 65 P27.4 that he was attested on 11 March 1986.  It is not a material point Mr Chair, so I don't wish to spend too much time on this.  If you could continue and ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: What I want to make clear is this is just the ordinary thing as a form filled in by everybody joining the South African Police, isn't it?  It has nothing to do with the Security Police.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Chair this form definitely has nothing to do with the Security Branch.
	Okay if you will then continue and complete what you were telling us.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair the special force order is a departmental order in which material is classified as confidential, secret and highly secret and the oath of secrecy is specifically related to classified documentation contents, that the contents may not be divulged.

MR VISSER: Is there legislation today which has the same, covers the same area and is related to sections of the South African Police Force?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair the special force order is still in force but the present New Police Act also contains a section which covers this area so that one is not allowed to divulge confidential information regarding the activities of the South African Police Service.

MR VISSER: Okay we also know that Mr Ngo on the 4th of July 1986 was taken up at the police station at Hammanskraal, one of the references Mr Chairman is page 66 of Bundle B.  You will see an entry there from Ladybrand to SAP College Hammanskraal and the date 4 July 1986.  There are also other references, I don't think it's in dispute.
	Okay now after Mr Ngo in February 1986 became a policeman, where was he stationed?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Honourable Chair he was placed on the staff of Batu, it was a service arrangement though for him to do service at the Security Branch in Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: Okay can you tell us from which date?   Well not that it's really relevant, it was sometime around February, if not in February.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Well I'm not quite sure, but it was shortly after his formalities had been concluded and he had joined the police.

MR VISSER: Why did he come to the Security Branch, for what reason?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: He worked with the Black Section who were responsible for schools' unrest and he was most involved in recognising some of the suspects.

MR VISSER: How did you regard Mr Ngo as an informant and later on as an aid at the Security Branch.  How did you regard him?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: He was a good informant.  He was a good worker.  He worked under supervision, I never had any problem with him, although when he was a student I did not work with him personally, I never had any complaint against him.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo applied for amnesty and he told us that he had committed the murder of Mr Venter.  He told us that Mr Coetzee, you yourself and Mr Shaw, as he understood it, had him come from Pretoria where he alleges he was a member of the Security Branch to come and carry out this special assignment or operation in January/February 1989. What is your comment on this?

JUDGE WILSON: You haven't told him what Coetzee, Shaw and he did. Ngo said he'd murdered Venter and he said Coetzee, Shaw and you, and then you said having come from Pretoria, you didn't say what they did.

MR VISSER: Let me make it clearer.  There is a suggestion that one or all of you had Mr Ngo come here from Pretoria to carry out this special operation.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: It is a lie Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: And if it is alleged that one or more of you three gave him instructions to murder Mr Venter and to rob him what is your reaction to that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: It is not the truth Mr Chair.