Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

MR P WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mbane, I'm not going to be long with you, I just want to ask you a few questions to clear up certain things.  Firstly, in your evidence in chief you said that the word eliminate or sweep(?) it's the same thing.  Now what's the meaning thereof, what does it mean?

JIMMY MBANE: It means to kill.

MR P WILLIAMS: And then further on you said that if you get an order you don't ask questions you just take your bags and go.  Can you recall that you said that?

JIMMY MBANE: I can remember, I can still remember.

MR P WILLIAMS: Now why did you say that you don't ask questions you must just take your bag and go?  What's the reasons for that?

JIMMY MBANE: If you are a trained person, you don't question your commander about why I'm given this order.  You have to follow the orders that is why you always have a commander.  You don't ask questions.  You just say go straight to that door, you do as you're told.  You must not ask questions.  You are not to ask why do you have to kill a person.  He knows, as a commander, he knows why.

MR P WILLIAMS: If you ask questions, what are the consequences for you?  In other words, if you question some order that you were given, or you to refuse to comply with that order, what will the consequences be for you?

JIMMY MBANE: If you question or refuse, you will get punishment.

MR P WILLIAMS: What type of punishment.

JIMMY MBANE: It depends what type of commander you have.  Maybe you can be assaulted or you can be killed.  It depends on those things.  It depends what type of a person your commander is.

MR P WILLIAMS: Assume that you were given an order that you must kill an enemy of the state and you fail to comply with that order, what do you think what could have happened to you?

JIMMY MBANE: You would be killed because it would like you are working together with this enemy.

MR P WILLIAMS: Why is there a perception amongst Vlakplaas operatives that you could commit illegal acts with impunity?
In other words that you could commit some crime and not be punished for it?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't get your question clearly, sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: Did you guys based at Vlakplaas think that you can just go on and commit crimes and not be punished for it?
Yes or no?

JIMMY MBANE: We did think about it.

MR P WILLIAMS: You say that, in one of your affidavits, you say for example that at some stage you were driving with Mr de Kock and that you shot some innocent person along the road just to show him that you can also kill a person.  Can you recall that?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I can still remember.

MR P WILLIAMS: You also say or you confess in one of you affidavits that you were personally involved in the killing of no less than 10 persons is that correct.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: In fact in one of the instances a young baby and the baby's mother was killed is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: I was actually killing a terrorist but by mistake I shot this lady while she was walking out of the gate.

MR P WILLIAMS: And is it correct that your commanders at Vlakplaas were aware of all if not most of these murders you committed?

JIMMY MBANE: They were fully aware.

MR P WILLIAMS: You were never charged with those murders and no disciplinary action was ever taken against you, is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: I was once called in the offices of the Attorney General in Johannesburg to sign forms and the mother of the baby got some money from the State but I was not charged.

MR P WILLIAMS: So in other words, would you agree with me that at the time when you were based at Vlakplaas you thought that if you killed people whether it be with the expressed consent of the commanders or not that you would not be punished for that, that you would never be charged for that?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: You also say that at some stage Vlakplaas operatives stole cars and used those in special operations is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: And that they were involved in armed robberies, is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: So is it then correct that there was this perception amongst you people that were based at Vlakplaas that you can commit these offences and not be punished for it?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: Was that only your perception or was that a general perception at Vlakplaas?

JIMMY MBANE: Everybody was under that impression.

MR P WILLIAMS: So would you agree then that in your mind, you thought that to kill a person that's an enemy of the State or that were regarded as an enemy of the State that such an act would fall within the either expressed or implied authority that you people had that were based at Vlakplaas?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes sir.

MR P WILLIAMS: Then my second last question is you said that - I can't recall if you said Mr de Kock said or someone said that your purpose as an Askari was to hunt and to kill the terrorists.  Was that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: If you are not in danger you could arrest a terrorist, but should you be endangered you could kill but mainly our task was to kill.

MR P WILLIAMS: What happened once you captured a so-called terrorist and that person refused to co-operate, what would happen to him?

JIMMY MBANE: Please repeat your question.

MR P WILLIAMS: Once you captured a so-called terrorist and that person refused to co-operate with you what in your opinion would have happened to such a person?

JIMMY MBANE: If he was a person without information he would go and appear in court but if it was somebody who had a lot of valid information he would be killed.

MR P WILLIAMS: And then, just lastly, the Chairperson of the Committee asked you does the term "Comrades" mean members of the ANC.  Now my question to you is, is it not correct that the term "comrades" referred to those people who were opposed to the system of apartheid and included members of the UDF the ANC, The new Unity Movement, Cape Action League, AZAPO, whoever belonged to organisations that were opposed to the apartheid system, wouldn't that be a more fitting description of the term "comrade"?

JIMMY MBANE: That is the precise meaning of the word people who support ANC, PAC and  the like.

MR P WILLIAMS: And isn't it correct that the term "comrades" denote not only people who were involved in military activity but also ordinary supporters of these organisations, whether they were involved in conscientising ordinary people or whether they were just grassroots members of these organisations?

JIMMY MBANE: The name "comrade" refers to somebody who aligns him or herself with these people and support their ideas.  I do not know whether that suffices.

MR P WILLIAMS: So it does not necessarily imply that a comrade would be involved in military or underground activities is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.  You might be a comrade as a supporter of your movement without having got the training.

MR P WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR P WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbane, I just want to confine my questions to this particular incident of the Guguletu 7.  Now you testified that Mr de Kock was your commander at the time was that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: And then you also said that you left him at Vlakplaas when you came down to Cape Town.

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: And I'm not sure and I just want to clarify that with you.  My notes are to the effect that you said he knew nothing.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: We left him at Vlakplaas and at that time it was Mr Bellinghan who was my commander.  We left him at Vlakplaas and came down here to Cape Town.