Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I said that I got the keys earlier on, so I had them in my possession and I handed them over, so he permanently had those keys.

MR WILLS: How would the person who was going to collect the vehicle, how would he know where the vehicle was?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I said that initially there had to be that physical contact, so for example, I still remember very well that I was told that that first vehicle was going to be parked at what do you call this next to the old Durban station?

MR WILLS: The Workshop?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: The Workshop yes.

MR WILLS: Was it the case that a similar parking place would be used on most occasions?  Can you tell us what the arrangement was in that regard?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I assume that they will not use the same location, I am sure it used to rotate, maybe Workshop, the Wheel, whatever, that the police would not in fact have been suspicious of.

MR WILLS: Do you know how Mr Sithole would know where the weapons or the truck was, the vehicle?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, because initially I did tell him, but subsequently he made his own communication with those people, so I am sure when his time comes, he will be able to explain how it happened.

MR WILLS: And then, I take it he would return the duplicate keys to you at a later stage?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: In fact, I am sure one of those cars, they were impounded by the Security Forces, one of the cars.  I have never seen those keys again.

MR WILLS: As regards the training of SDU's, it has become apparent through evidence that has been given to the Committee that certain people were trained in the Transkei, other people got training in the areas where they operated.  Do you know anything about that?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, as a person who was living here in Southern Natal and as Chairman of the ANC, I need to correct maybe the perception that only the Self Defence Unit that the ANC was involved in, were involved in the protection of communities.
	In many instances Self Defence Units were a spontaneous creation of the masses of people where violence was.  So, I was aware for an example that people on their own accord used to find their own weapons, used to find where to train.
	I am generally aware that some of the people used to go to the Transkei.  As far as you are concerned, our main priority was to make sure that where our cadres of MK were involved, limited training within the constraints of security had to be undertaken because we were always emphasising the question of discipline on the question of the Self Defence Units where our members were involved.
	Yes, indeed I am aware that in some areas MK used to provide some form of training to the people, otherwise it would have been irresponsible for us to allow the distribution of weapons to people who would not know how to operate an AK47 or hand grenade, etc.

MR WILLS: Were you personally involved in that training at all?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I was not personally involved in that, but periodically I would get reports that things were happening.

MR WILLS: Just a bit more detail on possibly volumes of firearms, are you aware of the approximate number of firearms that were conveyed into the Southern Natal region during your involvement in this operation.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I won't know precisely how many weapons were delivered in Southern Natal, but my guess would be probably plus minus 120 AK's or something like that.

MR WILLS: My understanding from your evidence is that you never physically saw these firearms?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, I never physically saw them.

CHAIRPERSON: Just while we are on the question of the firearms Mr Radebe, we have heard various applications concerning Self Defence Units and from time to time we hear that communities actually coughed in money to assist in the acquiring of arms.
	The arms that you are talking about now, that came in the truck and that were distributed in the manner that you have described, were they sold at all or were they just distributed to SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, not at all.  We never sold those weapons.  The point, the Honourable Judge is mentioning is very valid that communities on their own, would find weapons outside what I am describing here.
	In fact in some instances they even manufactured their own weapons which they used to call "uxashuno, which were very effective as I was made to believe.  But not at all, we never sold any arms, but we are able to account for most of the arms that we distributed.

MR LAX: Just before you go on Mr Wills, Mr Radebe you spoke about approximately 120 AK's.  How many hand guns may have come in in the same process, do you have any idea?  If you don't that is fine, but if you know?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I wouldn't know precisely how many.  Why I do know the approximate number, is because there was a time, a time came when we had to retrieve some of those weapons.
	I was later informed that quite a number of the weapons that we had received, that were not used, were actually returned back.

MR LAX: Are you able to say how many were returned back?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I would just be guessing, I don't want to do that.

MR LAX: No idea of the percentage or whatever?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I am sure we must have recovered about 85% or 90% of all the weapons that we initially distributed.

MR LAX: Thank you.  The rest having been actually taken by the Security Forces, because we also had some problems.

MR WILLS: Just getting to that aspect there, there came a time when it became, it got closer to the election in 1994 where in the transitional process, MK was being integrated into the South African National Defence Force, together with other armies.
	At that stage, I believe that the weapons were recovered in order to go into the arsenal of the South African National Defence Force, is that correct?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Correct.

MR WILLS: And can you explain how that process occurred in your region?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, what happened around 1993, especially after, in the process of negotiations within CODESA it became clear that South Africa was moving towards an election in 1994, so there was a process that started which indicated that Umkhonto weSizwe  was going to be integrated with the South African Defence Force, to form the South African National Defence Force, so an instruction was received from military Headquarters that we need now to recover the weapons that were under our control, so that they must be taken back in this process of integration.
	I duly conveyed that instruction to Sithole and those weapons were recovered and they were sent back.

MR WILLS: It is also I think quite common public knowledge that there were occasions when SDU members acted in circumstances which could not be described as politically motivated or where they committed what may be described as just common crimes, without a political motivation?
	Were you ever aware of circumstances such as those, and if so, what did you do about those instances?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I was aware that in some instances, some people involved in Self Defence Units, they overstepped their mark.
	Where this was brought to our attention, we issued a directive that those people, whoever they may be, must be disarmed.  I am aware of instances for example in Port Shepstone, in Umkababa and Chesterville, where some of those comrades who were involved in this, were actually disarmed.  They never participated in those.

MR WILLS: Were you personally involved in  the what I may loosely describe as the disciplinary processes?