Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR KEMP: Madame Chair, I'm sorry. I cannot allow Mr Vally to continue to make statements which is completely incorrect. He elicited from the witness the question whether on that particular weekend, which we can call the Bramford weekend whether he saw any telephone conversation which showed that Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela was at home. He said in his reply he cannot recall whether he saw a conversation like that. It might be something that passed his desk and because it was of no import to him at that stage, shredded it. Now what my learned friend is doing is criticising him for possibly ignoring evidence which he says, he must have been aware of. How possibly could the witness at that stage have known that it would be crucial to remember a conversation by Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela on a particular weekend. This is now when it happened. Not subsequently when the press reported about her alibi and things like this. He is not distinguishing between the past and the present and the question is unfair. And I cannot allow it. I'm sorry to interrupt but I feel compelled to do so.

MR VALLY: Madame Chair, I'll respond quickly to this and I'll move onto other items.

YASMINE SOOKA: I think you should move.

MR VALLY: The reason I asked that question very simply, in paragraph nine of Mr Pretorius' affidavit I was involved in the planning of the raid on Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house to get information regarding the kidnapping, assault and murder on Stompie Sepei. I was brought there as an explosives expert and as the Intelligence Unit Commander I was requested to be present by this operation and I was present when this raid took place." Now there's a contradiction between what is happening here. But let me just go on. I've got a few other questions that I'm scared you gonna stop me because of this evasive reply. And Madame Chair I would request that we will reconsider calling Mr Pretorius back at a time when we have more time to avoid this evasive manner he's answering these questions. Because we're under pressure for time.

YASMINE SOOKA: I'm going to allow you to ask the question but I think that you need to be fairly careful about because you ask these specific questions. Now if you have information which contradicts that question directly then put it but don't make an assumption from an answer that you're being given when the question hasn't been put in that particular way. So carry on but watch what you're going to say.

MR VALLY: I'll bear it in mind. I was referring to his own affidavit he submitted to us now, Madame chair. Alright, Mr Reyneke, was he in your unit?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No.

MR VALLY: Why did you think when the Attorney General's office asked Mr Reyneke for information regarding the kidnapping and assault on Stompie Sepei and other youths that Mr Reyneke did not respond to him?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I don't follow the question clearly, honourable commission.

MR VALLY: You were the Intelligence Unit Commander, is that correct?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did you give any information to the Murder and Robbery Squad regarding any information you had relevant to the kidnapping and assault of the four youths?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Of Stompie Sepei?

MR VALLY: ...

ANTON PRETORIUS: Apart from the evening, as far as I know I gave no further evidence. The (...indistinct)

MR VALLY: ... of telephone tappings, were you aware of a number of telephone conversations or calls to Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house regarding the abduction of the youths?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Commission, I am not exactly sure what he is asking. I am an explosion expert. Once a month I have to do duty. It was, that evening it was my turn. The evening of the investigation into Stompie's matter by Murder and Robbery. I was only involved in the explosives matter.

YASMINE SOOKA: Let the witness finish and then you (...intervention)

MR VALLY: Madame Chair he has explained to you he doesn't understand my question. I want to make it clear to him.

YASMINE SOOKA: Very well.

MR VALLY: He has confirmed to me he was a Commander of the Intelligence Unit. My question is simply this to him, as the Commander of the Intelligence Unit, as he was aware of an investigation into the kidnapping and assault of four youths, including Stompie Sepei, did he as the Commander of the Intelligence Unit make any information available to the Murder and Robbery Squad which he had access to?

YASMINE SOOKA: Respond.

ANTON PRETORIUS: I am not aware what four youths he is referring to. A number of those people have been attacked. I don't know which four he is referring to.

YASMINE SOOKA: About the question that's being posed. I think all of us here know that the incident that we referring to are the four youths in question involving the abduction of - and I think that you should actually, you know who the people are that we talking about. And I'm going to direct you to answer the question. Do you want Mr Vally to specifically give you the names of the four youths? Mr Vally will you assist Mr van Vuuren?

MR VALLY: Well Mr Pretorius I refer you to paragraph nine of your affidavit. You mention Stompie Sepei. He was one of the four youths. The others were Mr Pallo Mekgwe, Mr Kenny Ghase and Mr Tabiso Mono. This is the reason why you raided Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house and this is the place where you were present when the raid took place. My question and I'll repeat it is this. As the Commander of the Intelligence Unit being aware of this incident, did you make any information available which you had access to, to the Murder and Robbery Squad?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, like I've said on one occasion I was present where the planning meeting took place. I don't know whether anybody said that I gave information during that meeting. I took part in that meeting and during that meeting I, for the first time became aware of the facts regarding the case. The information which I didn't even give to Murder and Robbery. I, the Unrest Unit, I again mentioned to them that when they storm the house they again must make sure to use the back entrance because MK soldiers might be around. That was my contribution. I am not aware that Murder and Robbery can be called in and asked whether I gave them anything.

YASMINE SOOKA: ... to elicit from you. You were involved in this matter, did you pass on information that you obtained through your participation and giving that information over to the Murder and Robbery Unit? You've just said now that you haven't. Can we get on to the next question please?

MR VALLY: Why did you not give information relevant to this incident to Murder and Robbery Unit?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission I just said that I didn't know before that action, before the riot

MR VALLY: ... of an investigation of Murder and Robbery into the kidnapping and assault of the four youths after, why didn't you as Intelligence Unit Commander give information that you may have had at your disposal to the Murder and Robbery Unit?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, I cannot remember anything specific that I conveyed to Murder and Robbery.

YASMINE SOOKA: ... like to find out from you. I don't want to curtail the proper questioning of this witness. But it might be wise if we get an idea from you of how much longer you're going to be.

MR VALLY: Madame Chair I will (...intervention)

YASMINE SOOKA: So that the rest of us can take a short break to decide on how we going to deal with the remaining witnesses.

MR VALLY: Certainly. Madame Chair I will be five more minutes. But I want to reserve our rights to call this particular witness to another session, 29 enquiry, where his evasiveness can be pinned down.
 I want to ask you a different question Mr Pretorius. Did you receive a statement from Mr Lemmer, regarding the disappearance or the abduction of Mr Lolo Sono and Mr Anthony Shabalala?