Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-12

CHAIRPERSON: I really don't know. The normal sitting times are at least up till five 'o clock. I take into account it is a Friday. It has been a long week. But I also wanted to sit until five 'o clock on Wednesday and we did not sit until five 'o clock. I obviously would be in the hands of all participants in these proceedings. I don't think it is this panel's wish to impose a heavy regime on any person but I. Let me put it this way. It is our desire that we should break off earlier than the previous days. I have a sense that I might even be abandoned by my panel if I insist to sit later than half past four. So (...intervention)

MR CILLIERS: They might receive help from this side.

CHAIRPERSON: So you may be having some supporters as far as that goes. But this might be a matter that we might want to look at during lunch. I don't want to appear to be unpatriotic but there is a football match that Joburg people want to attend in the luxuries of their homes and that might be a further inducement for us to sit early. We certainly do not intend to sit late.

MR CILLIERS: As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally? You may not have wanted to call Dr Knobel but the directive from the Chair is that, that is how we want to listen to the evidence. Are you (...indistinct)

MR VALLY: I accept that Mr Chair and I will continue with Dr Knobel in a short while, save as to state that at some point there will be an application in view of the loss of a large portion of the hearing time allocated for this matter by virtue of the application brought by my learned friend and also the application brought by the counsel for the President and the Deputy President that at some point a ruling is made to extend this hearing to a mutually suitable date in the event of us not being able to finish today.

CHAIRPERSON: That should come as a matter of course as far as I am concerned until the (...indistinct) can be expected but I
note what your concerns are. Can we take evidence then?

MR VALLY: I have nothing further to add. I can carry on with Dr Knobel if you want to?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Knobel, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Yes, Sir, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I see that there are documents that have been placed before us, one of which seems to be the briefing to the TRC on the South African Medical Services and the Defensive Chemical and Biological Warfare Programme.  Has that document been brought to your attention Mr Arendse and have your principals seen it and what is their attitude thereto?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, this document relates to a briefing which General Knobel had with the Commission, the Commission was represented by Miss Sooka.  Miss Sooka signed a certificate in the form of an undertaking inter alia an undertaking that the Commission will not allow any part of the submission or the information to be published in any way without prior consultations with the President of the Republic of South Africa, and further acknowledging that the information made available will have a direct effect on State Security as well as international relations of the Republic.
 Now, I understand that a number of requests had been made to the President's office and that Mr Chaskalson had also spoken recently to the President's Legal Advisor on this and no definite response has been forthcoming from that quarter.  I have now tried to contact Fink Haysom.  He said he would be back here just before lunch time.  Because there are really two things, the one is the undertaking that it wouldn't be released without prior consultation which I can't speak to at this point.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't a lot of water gone under the bridge since that date, since the 21st of January 1997 in the sense of, do you have any instruction as to whether for instance the consultation with the President has not taken place or has taken place?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't have anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Before, before

UNKNOWN: I don't have any instructions.  I think if the President's office agrees that the document may be referred to at least, then my instructions are that it can be dealt with on the same basis as you proposed regarding the other reports on proliferation and other issues, so that is not a problem but firstly I need to first get some instructions on the consultation part.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I would like to add something.  That submission was given by my client in January 1997 and my client at that stage insisted on it that the undertaking had to be done and signed by Miss Sooka.  My client is the author of that document and he wants to use it.  He doesn't need the approval of the President to make the contents known.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, the undertaking is made not to consult with General Knobel but to consult the President.  Whoever drafted it is irrelevant, the undertaking is very specific.  That is the first thing.  However having said that, we have in fact consulted.  We have consulted in the first place on the 23rd of April 1998 and - I don't know if Mr Arendse has got instruction from the office of the President or only from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but I understand that there are further consultations taking place now.  My understanding of prior consultation is it has to happen, it's not that we need consent.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VALLY: So I confirm that consultation has taken place and one of the first consultations took place on the 23rd of April and there have been ongoing consultations even regarding this specific document.  But I am willing to hear Mr Arendse's response as I believe there are still ongoing consultations by him with the office of the President.

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't we, without ruling then, establish from you whether you are not able to carry on as you were carrying on until at least the lunch break without having to refer to this document or are you saying it is going to ...?

MR VALLY: I am not going to refer to this document.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR VALLY: It's General Knobel who wants to refer to this document.

ADV POTGIETER: And that seems to be our difficulty, that is the point that Mr du Plessis makes.  Mr du Plessis says that it is not us, we are not disclosing the document, his client wants to do that.  His client is the author of the document and it's his.  I don't know whether we have got any power to stop his client, that is what I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: We may not have the authority to stop his client but Mr Arendse may want to say, on behalf of his client he a right to intervene.

UNKNOWN: Well the undertaking is very specific and with respect, your Committee is established under the Act and under the Commission.  The Commission gave an undertaking here that it wouldn't.  But I don't see why this is an issue at this point quite frankly.  Your suggestion is a practical one.  I'll try and clear it up as soon as possible before or during lunchtime and we can deal with it on that basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally and Doctor Knobel, let's see if we cannot host until the lunch break without having to refer to this specific document and by which time I'm sure Advocate Arendse will have taken the necessary instructions.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: General Knobel, can you give us a short account of what would you see as having been the main achievements of the Chemical and Biological Warfare Programme during the period you were Surgeon General?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Vally, I quite frankly don't understand the question, could you define it a bit better please?