Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

M R NDLOVU: I knew him by sight because he would sometime come to help during the weekend.  I did not have details on him like where he resided or who he was because he was not in the same unit that I was in, I would just see on occasion when he came to the station.

MR LAX: Well, you see if you go to your statement at page 12 and page 13, I'll just read from the bottom of page 12.  Well let me read the whole paragraph so we don't lose everything
"I then got information that there was a man who was a policeman in kwaMashu who was supplying arms to the ANC members in Kaluza.  I also got information that this policeman was known to Sibonelo Dlamini, born from Mpumuza and was staying at Kaluza after running away from IFP at Mpumuza.  I learnt that this victim Gumede used to visit Sibonelo Dlamini at Kaluza.  I got information that this Gumede was staying in the hostel at kwaMashu.  I did not know his home district, I presume it was on the North Coast.  On realising this, we made a plot to kill this Gumede.  I first made investigation in kwaMashu Police Station until I got a positive identification of the victim, with the assistance of Sibonelo Dlamini."
Now, you knew this man by sight already, you say.  You didn't need Sibonelo Dlamini's help to get a positive identification?
You worked with him.

M R NDLOVU: As I explained before, he was one of the people who used to come to the station on weekends to help out as a reservist.  I tried to trace him through other police officers and I discovered that he was indeed one of the reservists who used to come to the police station to assist.  That is how I got to know that he is the reservist at a police station and that he is residing at the hostel.

MR LAX: But you see I've just asked you a few minutes ago and you said you knew the man by sight, you didn't say you had to find out who he was?

M R NDLOVU: I did say that I knew him by sight when he came to help out.

MR LAX: You're also say in your statement, before you made the plot to kill him, that you knew he stayed in a hostel in kwaMashu.  Earlier in your evidence you said you didn't know where he stayed.  Please explain this?

M R NDLOVU: From the information that I received form Sibonelo, he said this person lived at the hostel and when I discovered that there were police reservists who came to the station occasionally to assist, I then realised that that indeed was the person, that is Mr Gumede and it happened that I had seen him before at the station.

MR LAX: It still doesn't explain why you told us earlier that you didn't know where this man stayed but you did work with him and you knew him by sight.  If Sibonelo had told you that he stayed in the hostel before this you would have known where he stayed?

M R NDLOVU: The hostel itself is a massive place and I did not know whereabout the hostel did he stay.

MR LAX: The point I'm trying to make is just what your evidence told us and in any event you weren't going to go and kill him at the hostel, that would have been too dangerous for you?  You also weren't going to kill him at Kaluza because there would be too many people around there as well.  That was part of your earlier evidence, do you remember?

M R NDLOVU: Yes.

MR LAX: Did you not maybe have some quarrel with this man?

M R NDLOVU: No, we've never had a quarrel.

MR LAX: This Sibonelo Dlamini, he was scared of you guys, isn't that so?

M R NDLOVU: I do not think that he was afraid of me because I had not harmed him in any way.  He had grown up in the Mpumuza area and had fled the area to the ANC area.  As far as I'm concerned I don't think he would have been afraid of me.

MR LAX: But you told us that you discovered he was in the area and you sent for him and the only way you would let him stay, carry on staying in Mpumuza was that if he would give you information about Kaluza.  So it could hardly have been voluntary on his part?  Do you understand what I'm saying?
Now the question I have for you, in the light of that, is how could you trust the information he gave you when he would have just given you anything that you wanted from him so that you would leave him alone and let him be there?

M R NDLOVU: We trusted the information that was given to us by Sibonelo because this person is to come to his place and he also explained that this person worked at the police station and when I traced this person I did discover that that information was true and he also had an interest in protecting his home against ANC members because he also did not want his home to be attacked by the ANC.  So for his home or for his family to be safe he also had to help Tabani with that information even where there were people who were supposed to be attacked.  His home would be safe and not be attacked because Sibonelo supplied us with information.

MR LAX: Just two last small issues.  This witness in your trial, Mr Ngobo, you say you never saw him before you arrived in court, you'd never seen him before?

M R NDLOVU: As I explained before, Mr Ngobo used to stay at Mpumuza but he was an ANC supporter.  He was one of the people who fled the area.

MR LAX: You said that you hadn't seen him before he testified in court.  That was your evidence earlier this morning.  You said that Tabani told you that he knew him, remember?

M R NDLOVU: Yes.

MR LAX: Now the question I want to ask is, how could Tabani have told you that he knew him if Tabani was dead at the time your trial started and at the time Mr Ngobo gave evidence and you had never seen him before to know that there was any connection between them.

M R NDLOVU: Mr Ngobo used to stay in Mpumuza.  I knew him from Mpumuza.

MR LAX: How did - do I understand you correctly that Ngobo had no part in these arrangements between you and Tabani to go and kill this man, this Gumede?  You're nodding your head, I take that's a yes?

M R NDLOVU: Yes, he was not part of those arrangements.

MR LAX: Well then how did he have such detailed information that he could give at the trial about the conversations that took place and all the planning meetings and so on, if that is the case because the court relied on his evidence to convict you and you are saying that you were correctly convicted?

M R NDLOVU: That is a question that still troubles me up to this day because if you notice he made two statements.  In one he will say I had orchestrated the plan and in another he will say Tabani had planned this.  He made contradictory statements with regards to killing Mr Gumede.  If the Committee would look through those documents.  Even the court asked him with regards to who indeed was close to him between myself and my brother.

MR LAX: You see the court accepted his explanations for those contradictions, it's clear from the judgement and that's why it relied on that evidence.  What is difficult for us to understand and this is why I'm asking you this, because it seems he couldn't have been told all that information by the police, they wouldn't know that detail.  Only someone who was present would know that detail and yet you insisted he wasn't present and so that leaves us with a problem, we can't understand it.  That's why I'm asking for your explanation, you see?  So it's not a trick question, it's just to help us understand.