Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR VISSER: Just one question if I may Mr Chairman?  I think you did give evidence in your evidence in chief to say that Bhila was as far as your information went, acting together in concert with Kubezo is it or am I mistaken?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR VISSER: They were in the same unit?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: They were in the same unit yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	I'm sorry, I might be mistaken here, do you refer to Zondo?  I'm asking you because my memory fails.  You were saying that Mr Bhila was in a unit together with someone else, who was that other person you referred to?

CHAIRPERSON: You asked him the name Kubeza?

MR VISSER: I said so now Mr Chairman but I'm thinking that I might be mistaken, I think I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well the applicant agreed with you.

MR VISSER: Where did Mr Zondo fit in as far Bhila was concerned, was there any connection between them?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, same based unit as well Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: I see were the three of them in the same unit as far as your information went?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, plus others as well sir.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

ADV SIGODI: You say that Mr Bhila got - did you know personally that Mr Bhila got the training from Duduzi Sithole?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Did I know personally?

ADV SIGODI: Yes.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No I did not.

ADV SIGODI: And were you part of the - I mean from your evidence I understand that you were part of the team that was investigating Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: And others, yes.

ADV SIGODI: And others.  I just want to get some information on Mr Bhila.  Do you know how many people were there in his unit?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Not offhand, no.

ADV SIGODI: But did you know them at that time that you were investigating him, did you know how many people were there in his unit?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Well I knew - there's a lot of names that were arising in the investigation.  I knew most of the names, yes.

ADV SIGODI: And did you know what rank he held - Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, not specifically, no.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know who was the head of that unit?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes I did Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Who was it?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: The overall commander was Ramlakan.

ADV SIGODI: Pardon?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Ramlakan.

ADV SIGODI: Ramlakan.  Did you - were you part of the team that investigated the Amanzimtoti bombing?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Did you personally have information as to the presence of Mr Bhila in the Amanzimtoti bombing?  Did you personally know that he was there or was it a mere suspicion that he was there?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He was involved in the unit that did perform that bombing incident, yes Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: But do you know that he personally took the bomb to Amanzimtoti or did you not know that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I did not know that.

ADV SIGODI: But you just knew that he was part of that unit that was responsible for the bombing?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: The other thing that I want to find out is after he was discharged at the close of the State's case, did you know what information the police had to present to the State that allowed the case against him to be withdrawn at the end of the State's case?  Did you have enough information for him to be charged in connection with the Amanzimtoti bombing as part of the investigating team?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I don't quite understand, Advocate?

ADV SIGODI: What I want to find out is the information that you gave to the Attorney General as part of the investigating team did it link him directly to the Amanzimtoti bombing or did it not, as far as you can remember?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I can't recall, I was not actually working on that docket itself.  I was in the field, I don't know that fine a detail of the indictment and where it would have led involving Mr Bhila, Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Now the place that was chosen to eliminate him - in fact just let me rephrase this, the point I'm getting to is your political objective.  When you chose to kill him at that place at Umbumbulu, did you - what message did you want to send out to the public, did you have any message that you wanted to send out to the public or did you want to kill him just to eliminate him from society so that nobody knows where he is or whatever happened to him.  Was that the intention?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: There was no message intended for the public whatsoever, Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: In other words you wanted this killing to be done in such a way that nobody would ever know about it, nobody would ever know what happened to him?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct at the time, that is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: How would this have helped the mere disappearance of a person, how would it have helped to reduce the incidents of bombing because there were other people in other units who would have remained continuing to do what Mr Bhila was doing?  How would his disappearance have helped to lower the spate of bombings that was going on at the time in your mind?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Well, he himself was a bomber, he used limpet mines, he had shown he used limpet mines, so by not being present he would not be there to do it.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your intention it was just to eliminate him to stop him doing what you thought he had been doing?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It was to stop his activities Mr Chairman, his military activities.

CHAIRPERSON: And did that mean that you had now embarked on a policy that where you couldn't arrest and charge people you were going to eliminate them?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, that does not, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why was Bhila specifically selected?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I wasn't present at the decision however I concurred that Mr Bhila was a dangerous man and the decision was then taken.  It was the only way to possibly stop this bombing campaign that had so devastated Durban just prior to that.

ADV SIGODI: But isn't that because - didn't you kill him because you were frustrated by the fact that he couldn't be convicted in the ordinary court?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No definitely not, that's very incorrect Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: How would his killing have stopped other people from bombing if nobody knew what had ever happened to him?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: If it didn't stop other people or did would have been another story but it stopped him continuing the bombing that he was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it fairly clear though, or I would have thought it was, that his comrades would have known of his disappearance and would have assumed that he'd been eliminated by the police or the intelligence organisations, security organisations?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Not necessarily Mr Chairman, he could have disappeared out of the country for further training and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and the comrades would know that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: At a much later stage, the communication line was a little extended and confusion could have reigned before that supposition could have been made by them.

MR MALAN: Mr Wasserman, may I just take this last question again to get it clear in my mind?  Your purpose or objective in eliminating Mr Bhila if I heard you correctly was simply to prevent him from ever bombing again?  You haven't advanced - you didn't agree with any of the other possible reasons suggested to you, I just wanted to get clarity in my mind as to why he was eliminated?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He was to us a committed, well-trained Umkhonto weSize soldier who had already proved his military worth, he was a fighter, he was a danger and the decision was taken by my commander for his elimination.  I don't know what else to say in that regard.