Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, Mr Botha was involved in the planting of a bomb at Hillview School and Mr Botha received amnesty for the act which he committed because it was a political act.  The school - if I remember correct, was to be used by the ANC or was about to be allocated to the ANC and that is why the bombs were planted and Mr Botha received amnesty.
	But perhaps I should just point out that Mr Koos Botha actually was defiant towards the CP in respect of policy at some point and we had discussions with him and we told him that there were certain channels within the Party which he could use to address these matters but Mr Botha didn't want to listen to us.  
	He made a speech in Parliament in which he attacked the Party and we actually suspended Mr Botha or expelled him from the Party.  During the trial, Mr Botha was no longer a member of the Conservative Party and we didn't support him because he was no longer a member of our Party, on the contrary, he attacked us but the fact is, without our support Mr Botha received amnesty.

MR PRINSLOO: Now in Parliament, Mr Botha made certain statements relating to the Conservative Party, he said that he'd committed certain acts based on certain things which had been said by Doctor Andries Treurnicht?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's correct, that's what he said.  That was after he had been expelled from the Party and he then continued to attack the Party and he - for instance, referred to a speech made by Mr Treurnicht at the monument.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Prinsloo, let me interrupt here.  At the time when Mr Botha committed the offence in respect of which he got amnesty, was he still a member of the CP?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, when he committed the act he was a member of the CP and afterwards he became in revolt against the CP on policy grounds and then he was expelled and then the court case took place.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So in all probability, he must have - in his papers for amnesty, he must have said that at the time when he committed the offence he was a member of a publicly known political organisation.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I think that would have been correct if he had said that and I assume that he also said that he did that to further the cause of the Conservative Party and I think it is correct that he received amnesty.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, may we intervene at this stage because it apparently considered a matter of some importance, we haven't got the documents before us but we have reason to believe that Mr Botha was granted indemnity by the then President, rather than amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, I was going to allow the witness to carry on and then put this matter correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, this is our impression but it's a matter of - that something that should be investigated.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, perhaps it might be clear.
	Mr Hartzenberg, when you use the word amnesty, what you really mean is indemnity in terms of the Indemnity Act, is that not so?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: No, I mean amnesty, amnesty granted by this Committee.  This happened at a previous session at the City Hall in Pretoria and the matter was clarified when the Chairperson of the Committee indicated that Mr Botha had been heard in chambers and had been granted amnesty, so as far as I'm concerned, I learnt that he'd been granted amnesty from this Committee.

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, if I remember correctly, the Honourable Committee member, Mrs Khampepe confirmed that at the Committee hearing in the City Council, the matter was raised there as well.
	Doctor Hartzenberg, the expelling of Mr Botha, did that relate to the policy of the Conservative Party at all?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, it dealt only with policy, he wasn't expelled because he'd committed the act, he was expelled because he differed on policy grounds.

MR PRINSLOO: Now during the session in Parliament, one of the CP members Mr Daan du Plessis, actually tackled Mr Botha?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, what was the context, how did it happen?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Botha made a speech in which he attacked the CP and the next speaker was Mr Daan du Plessis and the whips of the Party told Mr Daan du Plessis: "Tackle Koos Botha, he's attacked us" and that is exactly what happened.

MR PRINSLOO: Did it have anything to do with the CP policy - that attack?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That attack dealt with the fact that Mr Botha then resented our Party for the fact that we weren't present during his court sessions.

MR PRINSLOO: Just a moment Chairperson.
	Just in conclusion Doctor Hartzenberg, to the present, how does the CP regard the deed of Mr Derby-Lewis and Mr Walus who also says he's a member of the Party?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, I already referred to this quotation from the submission and we are in exactly the same situation, we understand and we have sympathy that in the time of high tension and during times where people lost their lives on a very large scale in South Africa, people could have argued that the time was ripe to act and to carry into effect a deed which could perhaps steer the situation in a different direction.
	That was our attitude, that we believed that Mr Clive Derby-Lewis as well as Mr Walus, had subjectively argued that they were acting on behalf of the cause of the Conservative Party.

MR PRINSLOO: Doctor, in 1993 - early on in '93, approximately January/February, did Mrs Derby-Lewis attend that sitting?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, I can remember - on the basis of what she stated here during these proceedings, that while the distrust or while the opening address of the President was discussed - as it was referred to at that time, she came to me with a very or rather thick file and stated to me that it contained very good material for a speech, inter alia material which indicated the luxury in which with so-called champions of the poor were living  and I said to her: "Okay, leave the file with me". 	But Mr Chair, there were other things happening at the time, we were trying to get an organisation off the ground known as COSAC, Concerned South Africans Group, consisting of representatives of various Parties from various population groups.  COSAC was attacked in Parliament, we were the only Party who were part of COSAC who were included in Parliament.  The Pretoria Minutes, the Groote Schuur Minutes were raised and these hadn't been honoured and these were discussed and therefore there were many important things which I had to react to.  	After a day or two I said to Mrs Derby-Lewis that I wouldn't have the time to study this file, after all there were many other things that I had to talk about and I couldn't cover those topics as well in the relevant speech and therefore there was plenty of time to deal with it.
	 I could do that in a month or so but the topics which I had to deal with at that stage, had to be dealt with urgently and I said she could perhaps see if somebody else could in the meanwhile make a speech on those topics because it didn't have the same priority and I couldn't give attention to it, I had other interests I had to pay attention to.

MR PRINSLOO: Doctor Hartzenberg, during 92/93 - even from as early as 1990, just to refer to certain topics without burdening the record too much, many statements were made in The Patriot - first of all, is it the voice-piece of the CP?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: For example, in June '91 it said: "Whites Would Take Up Arms", then on 10 January '92, there was reference to: "Bombings", then in The Patriot of 8.5.92, there was reference to: "The Basks of South Africa", then 18.9.92, reference to" The Army of the Nation Reacting to F.W.'s Treason" and the many other articles, does this material provide good proof of what the CP stood for?