Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I think it is common knowledge that among all the members of the Security Force, I think at that stage there was a great level of mistrust in the amnesty process.  We didn't really know where we stood.  In the process there was a dispute whether we would be provided with legal representation.  Those were all matters which still had to be cleared up.  Early in December of that year, a meeting was held in Pretoria during which some of the generals and staff addressed us among others the former Commissioner van der Merwe and at that stage everybody was encouraged to make use of the process and to apply for amnesty.  After that I returned to Eastern Transvaal, I went to all the members under my command and informed them as such and encouraged them and told them that we should continue with the process and after that only was it confirmed to us that we would obtain legal representation and all these things contributed to the fact that we applied for amnesty, but that is why we only applied at such a very late stage.

MR PRINSLOO: Many of the applications are worded in the same way.  Did you consult with other members or what was the nature of the consultation?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: We consulted separately with the legal representatives, but I presume that the facts must be by and large the same and for that reason the legal representatives may have used similar wording.  I haven't read any of the other applications, so I cannot tell you where there are similarities or where there are points of opposition.  If there are similarities I believe that it must be because the legal representatives typed the applications themselves and they possibly have used the same choice of words.

MR PRINSLOO: Your application appears in bundle 1 as paginated on page 356.  Your application number is 5001.97 and this is on page 368 and the incident begins on page 369.  This is the Piet Retief incident on the 12th June which is relevant here.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And there are only the names of those involved, de Kock, yourself, Rorich, Theron, Hayes, Vermeulen, van Zweel.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And it ends on page 371, very briefly put, to the middle of the page.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And then there's also your motivation for your actions which begins on page 372 to page 379.  And do you confirm the correctness of the content of the pages?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: At the time of this action Mr Deetlefs, did you act out of personal gain or out of vengeance?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No, not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you act within your general capacity as a member of the South African Police in protection of the Republic and the police?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And in this case, 4 persons were shot dead, they were murdered, is that correct?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And are you applying for amnesty for the four charges of murder?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And you also committed perjury in court, so therefore you are also applying for perjury?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And that you defeated the ends of justice.  Are you also applying for that?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Or any other judgment emanating from this evidence.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Any other illegal deed which may be charged against you emanating from the events in which you were involved.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo.  Ms van der Walt, do you have any questions?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Deetlefs, you were W/O Pienaar's senior, is that correct?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you also work on a need to know basis?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: We all did.

MR CORNELIUS: So when you requested the services of Section C1, did you convey the necessary information to them?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I may just say - do you mean in general or with this specific incident?

MR CORNELIUS: With this specific incident.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I did not request C Section 1, W/O Pienaar contacted them.

MR CORNELIUS: But were you present during the planning stage?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, I was.

MR CORNELIUS: And was the necessary information conveyed to Col de Kock and his team?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius when you say Mr Pienaar got hold of you the day before, informing you that there was going to be an infiltration, did he make mention of calling in C1 at that stage?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes, he did, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any reason to doubt the information that Mr Pienaar gave you that he obtained from his source?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No, I knew Mr Pienaar and I trusted him completely.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not consult with the source yourself?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: No I did not, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: The persons who infiltrated the country, did you regard them as the enemy of the then State?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is so, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And did you feel that it was your duty to stop them?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Was there any other method except for eliminating them?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Chairperson, it's difficult to speculate about that, there could have been arrests, but one would never know that, if circumstances were different.

MR CORNELIUS: Very well.  Did you feel that these insurgents were a danger to the public?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is so, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: The information which you gave to de Kock and his team was to stop these people.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And this was done?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: In a successful ambush?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Was there any specific reason why W/O Pienaar did not report the first incident to you or was it just a matter of time?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I think I have mentioned it, that he did report the first incident to me, but not the detail, which I assume was on a need to know basis.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.  Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Deetlefs you were then aware that C1 that was stationed at Vlakplaas were the Security Police's operational unit, is that correct?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And that is the reason why they were requested to be of assistance in this regard?

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct, because they were the people who were trained to deal with such operations.

MR HATTINGH: That is the point, they were specifically trained and probably better equipped than the normal branches of the Security Police were to deal with such events.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Not that it is very important but Mr de Kock has sent a note which says that the Police Act and Regulations made provision for the fact that where two police officers of similar rank were involved in an operation, that the one in whose area the operation takes place would technically speaking be in command even though in seniority he was the junior of the other one.

CHRISTO PETRO DEETLEFS: I don't have any knowledge of such regulations, I think it was more a case of etiquette.

MR HATTINGH: Is it just here that you allowed Mr de Kock to take control over the operation because you thought he was better equipped to be successful.