Human Rights Violation Hearings — Uitenhage — 1996-08-28

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

PANEL MEMBER: We understand that there were various methods that were used by the security branch to recruit people into such organisations such as Ama-Afrika.  For example, there
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were psychological tactics to threaten people, there was financing and there were other methods to make the people cross over.  In your opinion, what tactics were used in order to make people cross over to such groups as Ama-Afrika?

NETISI TOTO: I would say the first psychological barrier was that of rejecting Uitenhage as divided in terms of Kwanubushle the old and Khayelitsha the new.  Psychologically if you happened to move across there was a psychological feeling that you are if you are staying in Khayelitsha, whereas that was not the case.  Most people move across because they were faced with the problem of housing shortage, which is still a problem up till now.  The fact that they stayed in Khayelitsha did not necessary mean that they were Ama-Afrika supporters, but they had a problem on housing.
 The second method was that of giving mass civilians in terms of not injecting methods around state arrest because we noticed a situation were most of us stayed periods close to two years uncharged affected by state of emergency, which was not the case to them.  Those were the logistical kinds of methods that we could conclude that they are systematically encouraging people to move across.  The list to (...indistinct) will be quite in depth if I had to get into that because allegation that there were a question of financial recruitment, no I wouldn't go on that because I don't have facts on that.

UNKNOWN: Firstly, what was the attitude of the employers when the people had to stay away from work when the people were in hiding?

NETISI TOTO: I would say there should be a separate hearing on
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that matter.  Systematically the local industry including some portions of commerce were not in favour of the UDF activists.
 I therefore request that there be a future hearing in that regard.  There are victims in that regard and to recite names at this moment, I don't think I would be doing justification because I might be including those I'm disclosed but I am convinced there are quite a number of people that where not favoured because of the inclination in terms of UDF activity.

UNKNOWN: Those people that were in hiding, were there women and children among them?

NETISI TOTO: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now, I would just like to know estimately the number of those people because I want to ascertain their state of trauma and also the lowering of their dignity because men, women and children had to live in one place.  Now, I want to see how their human rights were violated.  Just tell us estimately how many women had to run away, how many children and men had to run away and go into hiding.

NETISI TOTO: Because we were moving secretively and at night, those who were hiding here in Uitenhage, I would give a rough estimation of 300 in number, but in Port Elizabeth, there were about 500 people who were in hiding because they were accommodated mostly there in Port Elizabeth.

UNKNOWN: What would be your rough estimate of the number of the women and the number of the children?

NETISI TOTO: It would be very difficult to separate the children from their parents, but if one could look at the married couples and also the single people who were in hiding, I would say those people were about 50 in number.
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UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, over to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Toto, you are here today together with your witnesses in your company to come and give your side of the story.  According to your perception of this, you have already said to us, what could have been the reason for these people who named themselves Ama-Afrika, that they should not today be unable to give their side of the story, so that we know what they have to say.

NETISI TOTO: I must admit that this is just an estimation that firstly because women obtained peace in 1989, due to this peace, we maintained and we encompassed the head of the policemen with the support of workers who decided to leave their work because they wanted peace in Uitenhage.  We are also supported by the Ministers of Religion, that we can never forget.  We are also supported by residents of Rosedale, Gennersmith and Gamville.  Because of this peace, I think this could be the reason why these people have not come forward with their statements and stories, or perhaps it may be that it is possible that they still have intentions to come forward because you must remember that we did not agree about coming to present evidence before this Commission, we do not all agree, and see it is a fact that people should bring evidence before the Commission.

UNKNOWN: Now could you explain to us what the relationship was between the business people and this group of the Ama-Afrika.

NETISI TOTO: Mr Chairperson, I always believe that if there could perhaps be another hearing on this matter about the industry, the business people, then perhaps they could bring up their own side of the story, but I must say that some
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industries like Volkswagen were noted that at this time, when there was a great level of unemployment, these industries decided to employ some of the people who we were in conflict with, despite that some of the people from our side could not be employed.  This is not an allegation but on the other hand, there is evidence to this effect.

UNKNOWN: Lastly Mr Toto, that group that named themselves as peace-makers here in Uitenhage, were they working hand in hand with the Ama-Afrika or were they the same group?

NETISI TOTO: As one who was born and brought up here I would say peace-maker groups were formed in 1975 and 1976 and they were actually focusing on crime to an extent that at the time of the struggle, that was after 1976, we could see that this group was not prepared so much to be active in the struggle for liberation.  It would be very difficult to say whether this Ama-Afrika is still in existence because after the unbanning of the organisation we saw a lot of people who used to be members of the Ama-Afrika now working together with the PAC people.  Now it is of none existence, but most of the participants at that time presently we noticed that they are taking functionaries of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir, we want to pursue the question of the programme of the Ama-Afrika personally to revert back to political organisations, and find out if they were in fact a UDF equivalent.  UDF got assumed under ANC after 1990, perhaps we can go to the PAC and weigh that question also.  I would like to know more about detention.  Were there any signs of harassment or detention or torture or all the other things that all organisations, labour organisations, church organisations, whoever opposed apartheid at that time got subjected to torture and
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imprisonment.  Your own evidence did it indicate that they were subjected to that as well?

NETISI TOTO: In terms of Uitenhage's political activity at that time, the only person who was visited by security branch as we said at that time, was Mr Temodi Yange, but what was surprising, we were not together with him, all those to state emergency, the first state emergency we are alone, the second state of emergency we are alone.  It will be very difficult for me to count even a person among  the local Ama-Afrika participants, that were with us at the time.  I am trying to say, we couldn't find them, we couldn't identify them in terms of them being subjected to State repression.