Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that what the Freedom Charter says?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I would try to summarise it by saying that it says that the people of the country shall govern it unitedly.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Okay, okay.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I've forgotten some of the things that's stated in there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When was the Freedom Charter adopted by the ANC, the year, just give me the year?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Mpshe, I know what, the reasoning for your questioning, but if a person doesn't know in which year the Freedom Charter was adopted, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's not a supporter of the ANC, it's more like a history lesson that.   It's also like asking a layman the contents of the Constitution.   If he doesn't know that, it doesn't really mean that he's not in favour of the Constitution.   But perhaps he can try to answer, if he doesn't know, he must say so, but I don't want to get into questionings about the content of the Freedom Charter, etceteras, because it's not necessarily going to lead us anywhere.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I agree with the Chair.   I wouldn't even have ventured these type of questions had he not volunteered this information himself under cross-examination.   The Chair will recall that he said he supported the ANC when he was still at school and they were taught about Freedom Charters and everything, he volunteered this.   Now I was just merely trying to check the veracity of... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...his knowledge, it was on those (indistinct) that I moved along these lines (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well perhaps he can answer it.   Do you know when the Freedom Charter... (intervention).

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I've forgotten, it's simply because I've left school in 1988.   We were not using those documents at that time, because of the political dispensation, but mentioning them during my evidence was just trying to show you why I decided to support the ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, I appreciate that, thanks.   Thanks very much.   Now, the taking of arms at the Ledig Police Station, of what effect was this going to be on the prevailing political climate in the then BOP, the stealing of these arms?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: By taking those arms at that time, our intention was to use them, or rather we believed that we might make a difference regarding the violence that were taking place in our trains and they happened right in the presence of the police, who were supposed to protect the people.   Thus we strongly believed that by taking these firearms, we might bring a difference in protecting our communities, and we might help in reducing these attacks, and one other thing that we resolved into before Comrade Motepa approached me about this Ledig attack at one meeting was to attack Inkatha, but we realised that it was impossible to reduce the violence on the trains and looking for Inkatha, but what we had told ourselves was that once we have arms, we would go straight away to the hostels of the Inkatha members and attack them, because we knew that they were armed with firearms like AK-47.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be correct, Mr Ross, then to sum you up by stating that the taking of these arms at the Ledig Police Station was to use them in your community, in the trains around Diepkloof, in the trains to fight Inkatha in your area, do I understand you correctly?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, you understand me correctly by saying that by taking these arms, we are going to use them to shoot Inkatha members in the hostels, but not on the trains, because we were not attacking the trains, it was Inkatha that was doing that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll put it in the way you want it to be.   The taking of the arms at the police station was to go and protect your community at home, that was the main purpose?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, that was the main purpose.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you cannot think of any - there couldn't have been any other purpose?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Are you referring to the arms?   No, it was just to attack Inkatha and to defend ourselves if they came to our community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, I'm asking you this because in your testimony you said you were briefed in your second meeting extensively by Comrade Motepa, who even told you how he was arrested by the then BOP police, tortured, harassed and released, and you went on further to state that you went there to boost the morale of the Ledig people, because they were the most hated by the Mangope government, do you remember that?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I agree with you on that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.   Now I'm going back to my question now.  My question was, the taking of the arms from the police station, of what effect was it going to be on the political climate prevailing in Bophuthatswana or in Ledig in particular?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: He briefed us about his torture in Ledig and the violence that was prevailing in the late 80's, it was because we were against the fact of going to Ledig, therefore he had to convince us as to why Ledig of all places, what would be the significance, and that political significance was that the community of Ledig were quite resistant towards the government of the former Bophuthatswana, and being like that, they made enemies out of the Bophuthatswana police, and therefore our attack would be to reassure them that the liberation movements were supporting them in their resistance against the Bophuthatswana regime.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So this is another reason?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, that is another reason.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now when you told us that the reason to protect the people at home, and you said it was the main and the only reason, you are not telling this committee the truth, are you?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Let me put it this way, Comrade Motepa, when he approached me about this idea of attacking the police station, the only need that we had at that time was just to arm ourselves, but when he decided that the target should be Ledig, we told him that it is quite far and it did not make sense why we had to go and look for arms in such a far place, because it's very far from Diepkloof, but he showed us and convinced us as to why he targeted this place, he was trying to show us all the reasons why this place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ross, my question was simply to you that when you told this committee that the main purpose and the only purpose was to protect the people at home, that was incorrect, because you come now with another one?   Do you agree with me that that was incorrect?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I wouldn't say it's a different reason.   It's because I did not answer your question then, but the reasons why we went there was to arm ourselves in order to defend our community, and also to boost the morale of the people in Ledig, to boost their morale in resisting against the Bophuthatswana regime.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm sorry to be doing this to you, but I have to, I'll repeat that question, actually I'm asking for the third time, the taking or the robbing of the guns from the Ledig Police Station, what effect did you think it would bring on the political climate that was existing then in the Ledig community?   A very simple question, you know.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: We hoped that it will boost their political morale.    The spirit was there, or the morale was there, but we hoped to strengthen their courage, so that the people of Ledig would continue to resist Mangope regime.   That was the political effect we wanted to implement in Ledig.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Those people from Ledig, did they know that you are coming?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: No, no they did not know, but they will be happy to know that we did that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you known by people from Ledig?