Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR VISSER: There is a red building there which was discovered and is situated in a roughly north-western position?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: As the Chairperson has stated, there were two rooms on either side of the section which we can describe as something which appears to be a verandah?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is it your recollection that the building on the northern side, which is currently a men's' toilet, is still the same as the structure in 1987 or is it different today?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It is still today as it was then.

MR VISSER: Outside, at the entrance of that room, we saw that the entrance opens to the southern side?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And there is a L-shaped walled building?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that is now.

MR VISSER: That wasn't there in 1987?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, it wasn't there.

MR VISSER: With regard to the building - I beg your pardon, that toilet is approximately 5 paces by 3 paces large?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, I think it is not so much an L-shaped building, but just an L-shaped brick structure to block off the doors, each of the doors that wasn't there before, and also just for record purposes, Mr van der Westhuizen, if one is walking onto the verandah from the gate area, from where one enters the premises, one turns left and goes into the room where the interrogation took place?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is the smaller of the two rooms, slightly smaller than the other one?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And this also has an L-shaped wall in front of the entrance?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And the door of this structure opens to the northern side, so that the two doors actually face each other?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And that room which is been referred to as the store room, is approximately three paces by five paces in size?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: This morning when we were there, it did not have a roof?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Visser, that is the smaller of the two rooms, the 3 x 3, not 3 x 5.  The other one is 3 x 5?

MR VISSER: I don't listen to myself when I talk, and perhaps that is the problem, I thought I said 3 x 3, but 3 x 3?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you for correcting me, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: When I say 3 x 3, I paced it myself, that is taking fairly big steps, three big steps each way.   Mr Nel, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am not quite finished yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Visser, I thought you were.

MR VISSER: Thank you.   Mr van der Westhuizen, this morning we saw that this room does not have a roof, what was the position during 1987 with regard to the store room as well as the verandah section and the men's' toilets?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: There was a roof over the two rooms and the verandah area.

MR VISSER: Can you recall with regard to the store room, whether this room had windows during 1987?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot recall that.

MR VISSER: On the western side, or rather on the northern side of the building, there is a big tree.  Sorry, I beg your pardon, this is on the southern side of the building, there is a large wild fig tree, was that tree there when you were there in 1987?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR VISSER: And this morning we heard that there was a concrete slab there with steel poles over which there was a tarpaulin sheet under which people slept?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Between the place where the people slept on the concrete slab and the room or rooms which we have discussed just now, was there anything there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: There was a tarpaulin sheet between the rooms and the concrete block.

MR VISSER: Almost like a wall?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: When Mr Wasserman referred to the place where you made tea, where was that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It was near the tree, there were benches and a table, but if I recall correctly there was a table on the concrete slab where there were facilities to make tea or coffee.

MR VISSER: Can you recall whether at the time of this incident and you say that it was already dusk, if there was any lighting in the room where Ms Khubeka was interrogated by Col Taylor?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR VISSER: From where did this light come?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: From a generator.

MR VISSER: Where was the generator situated?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think it was behind the building, I am not certain.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that have been a portable generator?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Just before I ask if there is any other questions, just one other point relating to the building or to that structure which I omitted to mention, in the - we will refer to it as a store room, in the store room, there are windows, there is a window facing the front of the structure where the motor vehicles were parked, at present, are this typical sort of windows one gets in a toilet block, they start about three quarters of the way up the wall, and if you are standing on the ground outside, then you won't be able to see into the store room, other than perhaps, you would be able to see the roof, the inside roof of the store room, you wouldn't be able to see to the floor or anybody standing in the store room and at the back of the store room, they had two smaller windows at the same height and one on the south wall, also of the same height, not the sort of windows that one can look in unless one makes an effort to climb up and take a look in.  We were also informed that the doors at that time which weren't blocked off by this L-shaped brickwork that now exists, we could see the hinges, they opened into the rooms from west to south.  Yes, if you were standing in the room, if you were in the store room, you would open it, if you were facing the door, you would open it with your right hand and turn it towards the back of the room.

MR LAX: In a southerly direction in other words.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know it sounds a bit confusing, but that is what it is.  Mr Nel, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

MR NEL: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr van der Westhuizen, during the interrogation I would just like some clarity from you about this, was Mr Baker present on a permanent basis or not?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He was not present on a permanent basis.

MR VAN DER MERWE: My instructions are that he entered the room every now and then to find out whether or not there was any information with regard to terrorists with whom his askari members may have been involved, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: The entrance of this room, during the interrogation of Col Taylor, was the door open or closed?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The door was closed.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Was there any specific reason why you call this specifically?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: There is no specific reason why I recall it, the door was closed.  When a person was being interrogated, it was modus operandi to keep the door closed.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, and tell me, the regular practice when you worked with members of Vlakplaas and askari members, was it the practice for them to participate in interrogations or any possible assaults on people who were being interrogated?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, they did not participate in interrogation.