Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

MR PHOSA: Moreover, in terms of the laws of your Government, you were not supposed to torture people during interrogation.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Even Mr Hodgen whom you were speaking to, you viewed him as a member of the Attorney General's team of that very Government.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: You had never - I know the things you have shown us here - the documentation, you never had any discussion with any politicos regarding their attitude to elimination of people.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I personally did not have any discussions with them Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Now somewhere in your reply you say - sorry, I can't get the exact portion but I remember what you said.  You said something like this: "There was" - no, I think you were saying there was - the Government did not - the Government would not openly support the killing of people, am I correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: And the word - in other words, there was never a direct statement that said people should be killed.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If we just consider speeches by the politicians to which I could refer you ...[intervention]

MR PHOSA: But before you do that, I'm dealing with a portion of your reply - I trust that everybody else has that, I noted that you said there was nowhere said by any politician anywhere directly that people could be killed.  Didn't you say that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't think I ever said that Mr Chairperson, I only said that I was indoctrinated and conditioned in such a way by the terms of "total onslaught" and the concept thereof Mr Chairperson, and from various meetings and seminars that I attended where certain terminology was used and reference was made to elimination.

MR PHOSA: Mr Chairperson, I really am serious about this.  Has nobody else have a note where this witness said: "No politician ever said directly" ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But he agreed with you, he said: "Politicians never told us to kill, it was a deduction that I made from what they said".  He agrees with that.

MR PHOSA: Now because of that Mr Nieuwoudt, I ask you the next question -  are you saying that the word eliminate is of dubious meaning, in other words it does not necessarily mean "kill"?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In my evidence in chief I stated the way I understood the word eliminate was to kill, that's the way I understand it.

MR PHOSA: Yes, the way I understand your evidence is that you gave an interpretation because it wasn't an explicit word to say: "People must be killed".  Isn't that what you're saying?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is my perception Mr Chairperson, and that is what I believed the word eliminate meant.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Phosa.  Mr Nieuwoudt, didn't you say in the context of those meetings, seminars and workshops you attended as a member of the security police, your understanding of the use of the word eliminate or elimination was that people should be killed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is the way I understood it.

MR PHOSA: I will quickly sum this up because I'm pretty sure that I don't have much support - I will argue this later but just briefly on this thing because I don't want to leave at that, You see what I'm putting to you is this, my understanding of your evidence is that politicians avoided using the word kill because that would be pretty obvious so they will use the word eliminate because it might not necessarily mean kill.  Am I getting the wrong impression of what you're saying, that you personally said: "I'm sure they mean, to kill"?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I could quote Magnus Malan's statement: "Visiting the scene of the landmine explosion in the Northern Transvaal he said, wherever the ANC is we will eliminate it".

MR PHOSA: Now, it doesn't answer my question and I don't think you are listening carefully.  I have understood you - and I've been told a few times to remember this but I always understood, you are saying when the word eliminate was used, you understood that to mean "kill".  Do you understand me?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: But your impression - and it's important to me that I get this, was that the word eliminate was being chosen deliberately so as to be ambiguous and not to say clearly "kill", that's how you understood it.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: But then I'm going further with you, I'm saying to you: "As a matter of fact the word eliminate is ambiguous, it is an ambiguous term, it could mean getting rid of people" ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that a matter for argument Mr Phosa?

MR PHOSA: Am I wrong in putting it?

CHAIRPERSON: He's told you what his impression was, you can put to him that he's not being truthful in that.

MR PHOSA: No, he doesn't have to be a liar in that regard, if the word is ambiguous and he knows it's ambiguous I would like his support on that sphere.  He doesn't have to be a liar at all times to concede the fact, I'm not always going to get extracts - admissions of lies from him.  I'm just trying to get from and I mean by the way Mr Chairman, to try and convince you later about this because I may have to do that but I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I'm saying, you do it in argument.

MR PHOSA: But if I said to you the witness also concedes ambiguous and you said I didn't put it to him, what would I do?  May I be allowed to put that to him?

CHAIRPERSON: He has conceded that politicians used it so that they could argue it meant something else, isn't that ambiguity for you?

MR PHOSA: Mr Chairman, that's my problem, had I just asked that question and got an answer - if he said no for instance, I'll be able to address you about him.  Can I ask him?  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You have made the point haven't you, that politicians used the word eliminate so they could later argue they didn't mean "to kill".

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, you are correct.  May I just refer you to my attachment  or Appendix 2?

CHAIRPERSON: You referred us there to the various references to eliminate, didn't you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: The strategic communication?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, page 70 Mr Chairperson.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, this refers to the secret manipulation or secret undermining of groups or institutions which was directly opposite to the image which the Government wished to show of themselves.

ADV SANDI: As of today Mr Nieuwoudt, is it not your word against those politicians you're talking about?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson with all respect, could you repeat this question?

ADV SANDI: As of now and today, is it not your word against the word of the politicians?  You say: "It was clear from this that we were being given instructions to kill" and they say: "We never meant that, that is not what we were saying.   We have no policy that political opponents should be killed or eliminated".

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: You are correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Nieuwoudt, if somebody tells me to go and eliminate somebody and I'm Afrikaans speaking, then I would understand: "Go and kill him".

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is the way I also interpret it Mr Chairperson with great piety.

MR PHOSA: Mr Nieuwoudt, I know what has been put to you by the Committee member, I am dealing with the context - maybe there's something I do to my things ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well I had hoped we might achieve something this afternoon, we've spent half an hour on hearing that he gave false evidence at his trial and that he want's amnesty so that he won't be punished.  Can we get on with something now?