Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-28

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was at Ficksburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Ficksburg - and was that members of your group?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Some of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you participate?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I did participate.

CHAIRPERSON: Any others?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Not with that group.  That was '93.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we'll leave that for the moment, other people might ask you about that.  There were no others with that group in 1992?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, I just want to be absolutely clear here because you have already given us evidence in another matter of other training attacks that you went on - you remember that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I recall.

MR LAX: Let's confirm all of those as well because we don't want to get bogged down in semantics later to say well those weren't attacks those were training operations or other things and they surface and then it looks like you're being tricked when in fact - let's rather get as many of those out as you can remember as well.  I just don't want to have to let you feel you might be ambushed later around those issues when in fact it's not the intention.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I mentioned two incidents prior to, or in the area of Lady Grey Ambush that there were also two attacks that were carried out.

MR LAX: Are those the only two that you know about?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Which involved the enemy whereby it was physically involved.  The other attacks - we carried them out in the mountains whereby there would be no settlers as part of the exercise.

MR LAX: So others weren't - I mean you didn't attack people or vehicles or houses belonging to anybody?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.
ADV. SANDI: Mr Dolo did you mention something about attacks in the mountains, can you explain that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We were talking about the exercises except the two which I have mentioned, so I come across this question of the mountains whereby we were involved in the exercise.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these the normal sort of military manoeuvres?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: May I proceed Mr Chairman?
	Maybe I can help you Mr Dolo - these two other attacks which you now mention, which were partly training and partly operational.  The one occurred in March, early in March and that was the vehicle of Mr van Rooyen who was at the bakery.  My information is that a petrol bomb was thrown at his bakkie which exploded on the bonnet causing burn areas on the vehicle and he went through that ambush and then went up to Herschel and reported the matter there.  Can you recall that whether that would be the case?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That would be the case as we had dealt with it last week.

MR PRIOR: And you see there was a motorist that followed behind it, a Mr Franscisco, who also worked at the bakery and when he was about four minutes behind Mr van Rooyen and he still saw the petrol bomb burning on the road and he drove past, he wasn't effected at all so you confirm that this was the first attack early in March?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There were two attacks in that area before this one of the ambush of the area of Lady Grey - one involved the one you are mentioning and then there would be another one.

MR PRIOR: I'm trying to put a time frame on it - the one we are talking about now with - my information is Mr van Rooyen, you obviously didn't know his name or you may have known his name.  He worked at the bakery.  That occurred in March.  The Lady Grey ambush with Mrs Brummer and Mr Tsimani occurred in November - it was eight months later.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: So which one are you telling about, the one that occurred in March?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, I was not part of it.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying that shortly before the Lady Grey Sterkspruit where Mrs Brummer was involved, there was also a training/operational exercise on that same part of the road where a petrol bomb was thrown at a vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And exploded on the vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: When it was mentioned last week here by I think it's Thabiso, he said the petrol bomb never exploded, I think so.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you see there was one after this Lady Grey matter - I don't want to confuse the witness - it was after the 19th, about a week later, there was an incident on that road just beyond the bridge going up towards Sterkspruit, when Mr Franscisco's vehicle was shot at by a passing taxi or from out of a passing taxi.  Do you know anything about that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: If you can explain it again broadly?

MR PRIOR: The only other incident that we are aware of after the 19th November, that is the ambush we spoke about last week - Mrs Brummer, Mr Tsimani's matter - about a week after that there was a shooting incident on that same stretch of road on Mr Franscisco who also worked at the Sterkspruit Bakery or the bakery in Sterkspruit and his vehicle was shot at from a passing Hi-Ace taxi on the way to Sterkspruit.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I know no Hi-Ace issue where he was but, maybe a week as you say it happened a week prior to that one of the ambush, there was two attacks that we were involved in it.

MR PRIOR: But those two attacks on your description they involve Molotov Cocktails, there was no shooting there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There were guns.

MR PRIOR: But there was no shooting?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't recall.

MR PRIOR: Alright.  What I want possibly just try and elucidate from you was that you were sent - you were deployed in that area, as I now understand your evidence, to get rid of the white people that were working in or had business interest in Sterkspruit, is that correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Repeat again?

MR PRIOR: You were deployed in that area, Jozannashoek, Sterkspruit, to drive off or drive away or kill or get rid of the white people - as you call them the settlers - in that area, you wanted them out of Sterkspruit?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That was part of the mission.

MR PRIOR: And that command, that order came from Mr Letlapa Mphahlele, is that correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That was part of the instructions.

MR PRIOR: To drive out any white person in Sterkspruit, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And the intelligence that you gained was that most of the people that worked in Sterkspruit, lived either in Lady Grey or came from Zastron from either the Free State or from the Eastern Cape side, is that right?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And was also your intelligence that they always drove on that road at a certain time of the day in other words 7 o'clock, half past seven?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And is that why you planned the ambushes for that time?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you also have further intelligence that certain of these individuals drove particular motor vehicles, for example - Mr Griesel drove a bakkie, Mr Smit drove a motor car, the bakery had a certain vehicle, the furnishers, Score Furnishers had a certain vehicle - was that the type of intelligence that you had?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, but the names of the owners of the car we not know about.

MR PRIOR: So you were looking out for particular motor vehicles at that specific time?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you have for example makes and colours of vehicles?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, they were known, the cars.

MR PRIOR: And those were your specific targets - as I understand your evidence - you were looking out for those particular vehicles because they were connected very properly to Sterkspruit via the owners who were the white settlers.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.