Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-23

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I am not related to Ndlandhla.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question Mr Ntuli was not really how you were related to him, but what was your relationship like with the deceased?  How did you know the deceased, did you know him well, was he a friend of yours, was he a casual acquaintance, did you only know him by sight?

MR MCHUNU: Or was he your enemy?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: He was not my enemy, he was a taxi driver.  We were used to the taxi drivers at kwaMakutha because sometimes they would help us like during rallies in town, we would ask them to transport us to the venue.
	That is how I knew him.

MR MCHUNU: Was he a member of any political organisation that you knew of?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I would not know which political organisation he belonged to, I just knew him as a taxi driver.

MR MCHUNU: You have spoken about also the death of Mduduzi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I get the name of the other deceased, Mduduzi, what was his full name?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Mduduzi Matobela.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MCHUNU: What was Mduduzi Matobela's role within your organisation?  Was he a member first of all?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: He was an ANC member.

MR MCHUNU: What was his role within the ANC at that time?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Mduduzi was known as a very courageous person, for instance if we were under attack from the IFP or the Police, he could stand his ground and fight those opponents.  He was known to be a very courageous person.

MR MCHUNU: Within that area, was there a branch or a unit of the IFP?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes, there was.  At the time there was an IFP branch in Unit 10, Unit 18 and Feligisi, that is where they were based.  Near my home in Unit 1, there wasn't an IFP branch.
	On most occasions they would move from their areas, and attack our area.

MR MCHUNU: Am I understanding you correctly to be implying that there was violence in the area between the IFP and the ANC?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes, there was violence.

MR MCHUNU: You have also spoken about the Police, the ZP's, kwaZulu Police, what was their role?  How were they related to this whole incident?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: We had a problem with the kwaZulu Police in that if for instance the IFP was attacking us, you will find that there will be Police vans and sometimes we would see the kwaZulu Police amongst the IFP people who were attacking.

MR MCHUNU: Are you implying or are you saying that the kwaZulu Police members were siding with the IFP in the violence?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: After the death of Mduduzi Matobela you said, how did you regard the deceased Mr Msani, Mr Ndlandhla Msani?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: After the death of Mduduzi Matobela, Msani was absent, he was not seen on the street, he did not work.  We learnt that, on learning that he had contacted the Police we expected to question him, and if he had indeed done so, we would have killed him.

MR MCHUNU: I mean with all the suspicions which you had, would he have been regarded as an enemy or ...

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Mchunu, you really are leading this guy by the nose a little bit here.  I think he has made his point, you don't need to add the sugar coating on frankly.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if he has said that there was, they had heard that he had contacted the Police and they would have killed him if that was true, they wouldn't have done that to a friend, I don't think.

MR MCHUNU: Thank you for that.  Could we just move on.  Let me just put this question this way, did you regard your killing of Mr Msani as a vengeful attack or as what, something else?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Although I would not say it was a revenge attack, what led to his death, was the belief that we had, that he had informed the Police.  Before we could question him, if he had known that he was innocent, because he knew us, he was used to us, and we did not have a problem with him.  If he had known that he was innocent, he could have just stopped and talked to us.
	But when he tried to run away, we indeed believed that he was guilty.  I was the first one to get into the car, and the others arrived and also got on the car.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard what has happened, you have told us about the stabbing.

MR MCHUNU: During those times, if I may just ask this question lastly, how did you deal with people you perhaps regarded as informers of the Police or as informers of the opposite?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: At that time, it would sometimes happen that amongst ourselves as comrades, maybe somebody will be arrested and shortly thereafter, he maybe would return with the Police to identify or maybe he would mention people's names.
	If that person was released, he would also be killed.  There are comrades who died in that regard.

MR MCHUNU: You have also said there were other people whom you were also with during the occurrence of all this.  Can you name them, those that you remember?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: The people that I remember are the ones that found me in the car.  It was Lunga whose surname I do not remember, Sipho Zaba Khumalo, Clinton Zuma and Nathi Gumbi, there were four of them.
	And they also got into the car.

MR LAX: I didn't catch all the names.  You said Lunga, you don't remember his surname, Sipho Khumalo, Clinton somebody, Zuma and the fourth one?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Clinton Zuma and Nathi Gumbi, Sipho Khumalo and Lunga.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MCHUNU: Are there any others that you can still recall?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mchunu, can you just repeat your question and put your microphone on please.

MR MCHUNU: Thank you.  Are there any others that you can still recall?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: There were quite many.  I did not note all of them because when I returned from my house, the discussion was already in progress that Ndlandhla should be approached.  So I did not take notice of everybody who was there.
	Normally we did talk in groups, we would always be in groups.

MR MCHUNU: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

MR MCHUNU: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.  Mr Ntuli, when did you become the supporter of the ANC?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: I first joined the UDF in 1985, that is I first knew about the UDF in that year.  I think at about 1990 the UDF was absorbed into the ANC.
	At the time, during the 1980's, 1985, I was a supporter, I did not have much information on the UDF, what we learned was from older people, people like Madoda.  He was the one person who would explain to us that the UDF was a people's organisation, fighting for the freedom of the people as well as many other things.  He would tell us a lot about the UDF.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What did the UDF stand for?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Union Democratic Front.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you attend any meetings of the UDF or of the ANC?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: There would be meetings in the area, and I would attend them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As a supporter?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you ever participate in the meeting?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: At that time, I was just a supporter of the UDF.  There was not a role that I played.  In 1988 I went to a boarding school in Amanzimtoti.  We had discussions as students and because of the little knowledge that I had about the political situation, we planned something at the school, because we were being exploited by some white teachers at the school.
	That led to my detention and I was arrested and sentenced to Westville.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This offence in June 1991, for how long had you been a supporter of the ANC?