Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

MR VISSER: Billy Morgan.  First of all, I do not want to take you through all the evidence, but there was a suggestion on the one hand that you were the one that had stabbed him, that Mr Ngo gave evidence before you say anything about that.  Mr Ngo gave evidence and he actually said that you did not stab him, you just held him.  At the end of the day you were acquitted, all of you.

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: My question to you is, did Mr Ngo give evidence at that trial?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, he did.

MR VISSER: Did he actually say that you stabbed him in his evidence?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no, I remember what he said in that, in, during the court case he was saying it was, he was trying to say amongst the six of us, because the sequence was so neurotic, to say, because he was saying when he was talking to me, somebody stabbed him at the back.

MR VISSER: I see.

WHITE MOHAPE: When he turned to look at that person, then somebody was stabbing him from this side.

MR VISSER: I see.

WHITE MOHAPE: When he also turned to look at this side, somebody also stabbed him at that side.

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: And then he pointed to people to say this one and that one and that one, but then later on he said, but I cannot correct, recollect that, but he said he was not sure either it was myself or the other person who gave the last stab.  I think it is like that, but ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: All right.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... I am not certain ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... to that effect unless we check records.

MR VISSER: With respect, I do not blame you if you are not certain about Mr Ngo's evidence, but the one point which I want to ask you is this, did he give evidence at that trial that you, White Mohape, held him while somebody else stabbed him?

WHITE MOHAPE: You know why?

MR VISSER: Did he ever say that?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, you know why?  Because also there were witnesses to that, that were, in actual fact, told by the security branch to come and collaborate statements of Ngo and one woman who was a witness into that case refused to testify.

MR VISSER: No, I think that, perhaps, you misunderstand my question.

WHITE MOHAPE: All right.

MR VISSER: My question is simply this.  I want to know whether Mr Ngo told the trial court that you held him while somebody else stabbed him?

WHITE MOHAPE: Well, I may not recall, recollect that.

MR VISSER: All right, that is fair enough.
	Now, do you actually know who did stab him?  How many times was he stabbed?  Wasn't he stabbed only once?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no, according to records, medical records, it was about five or six times.

MR VISSER: Five or six times?

WHITE MOHAPE: I think so.

MR VISSER: Oh, I see, so more than one person must have stabbed him?

WHITE MOHAPE: That is why we were all implicated into that.

MR VISSER: Oh, all right.
	I do not know whether I did ask you, but perhaps if I did not, perhaps I should put it this way.  Do you have any personal knowledge of who had stabbed Mr Ngo?

WHITE MOHAPE: You see, it is a ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: And I am sorry.  May I explain myself?

WHITE MOHAPE: All right.

MR VISSER: I am not cross-examining you with a view of charging you ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no, no.

MR VISSER: ... or anything like that.  I am comparing your evidence to that of Mr Ngo's.

WHITE MOHAPE: Ja, you see, in a situation where there is a commotion, where Ngo is on the floor and I am on top of him, I am struggling to take the gun away from him, a teacher is pulling me at the back, there are a lot of students from the class, you know, who are coming and meet.  Then the ones that we planned this to disarmament of Ngo with them, they are kicked all around.  I am also kicked, you know, when I am around, you know, because, you know, I am trying to grab the gun, he stand out, you know.  I will not certainly know who stabbed him.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I think we can establish that, but perhaps you can remember the date when this happened?  Which standard were you then?

WHITE MOHAPE: I was doing standard nine.

MR VISSER: Standard nine.  Would that have been in 1986?

WHITE MOHAPE: Let me try, that is why I am saying ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: When did you complete your matric, what year?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, it is, I did not complete it.

MR VISSER: Oh, you did not.

WHITE MOHAPE: It, In 1986 there was State of Emergency and ... (intervention).

MR VISSER: All right.

WHITE MOHAPE: ... I was one of the students, you know, I had to run away, in actual fact, at that time, because a lot of students have been, a lot of leaders have been picked up.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Okay, perhaps you can remember then, just to give us some ideas of the dates, because ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no, I ...

MR VISSER: ... it is becoming very confusing with all the incidents that we are dealing with and we are going to try to fix some sort of dates to incidents and how I am trying to help you now to remember is to say, is to ask you did you run away, as you just told us, while you were in standard nine or while you were beginning with standard ten?

WHITE MOHAPE: Mr Visser, you know, I ran away a lot of times and I had to come back to school, you know.

MR VISSER: Yes.

WHITE MOHAPE: What I can do, maybe for the Commission, is to have some time, recollect, you know, those dates and the years so that you are in a better position, because, as I am saying, so many things happened to me and it is not a mistake to say I may not, at one point, recollect a certain date, you know.

MR VISSER: Mr Mohape, could I ask you a personal favour?

WHITE MOHAPE: All right.

MR VISSER: We will not be able to finish with you today.

WHITE MOHAPE: Okay.

MR VISSER: That you, perhaps, let your mind go tonight and if you will, on the incidents that you have given evidence about, try to place dates ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: All right.

MR VISSER: ... in relation only to Mr Ngo, obviously, because we are not interested in anything else, in relationship to Mr Ngo.  Place dates on incidents.

WHITE MOHAPE: I will do that.

MR VISSER: What will be very important is for you, if you can remember at all, the date upon which you were abducted, as it were, with the white Bakkie, (...indistinct), ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Oh, all right.

MR VISSER: ... by the two gentlemen and taken to the veld and you were told to jump, assaulted and told to jump the fence and ran to the trees.  That date.  It would be very useful if you could possibly try to establish it for us.
	Now, during, seeing that you have just mentioned it, let us just stay still there for a moment.  During this commotion, Ngo was at school and somebody informed you that he might be in possession of a firearm, a gun, as you called it, and at a certain point in time you try to take the gun away from him.  You remember that?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did he, in fact, have a gun upon him?

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes, he had a gun.

MR VISSER: Would you, did you get hold of the gun?

WHITE MOHAPE: I got hold of the gun.

MR VISSER: Well, could you describe it for us?  Was it a long gun?

WHITE MOHAPE: No, no, it was, what do they call it, a pistol, the one with the running magazine.

MR VISSER: Oh, the running magazine?

WHITE MOHAPE: Ja.

MR VISSER: That is a revolver.

WHITE MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Because, the reason for that is, it is a revolving magazine, so it is a revolver ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Okay.

MR VISSER: ... not a pistol.

WHITE MOHAPE: Correct.

MR VISSER: Okay.  I believe it is proper for me to tell you that the evidence that has been suggested so far is that Ngo became an informer of the security branch in 1983, in 1983.  So, your suspicions were correct ... (intervention).

WHITE MOHAPE: Correct.