Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

AZHAR CACHALIA: Not only is it contradictory but it is completely a defence to the charges that were presented, that were brought against you in the High Court.  Is that correct?

INTERPRETER: Please may you repeat that question.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Not only are there substantial inaccuracies according to you, but it was, what you have said in your application form, is a defence to the charges that were brought against you in the High Court.

MR NDLOVU: I don't follow you.  I don't follow you, what defence?

MR LAX: Mr Cachalia I don't follow you either, to be absolutely frank.  Maybe you must simplify the question.  You're dealing with a fairly unsophisticated person, and what you're putting is in essence the conclusion of what would otherwise be a legal argument.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Ndlovu, you said in this particular application form that they did something on your hands when they arrested you.  Is that right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes that is true.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is what was your defence in the case against you when the charges were brought against you in the High Court.

MR DRAHT: Mr Chairperson that was not his defence is my submission.

CHAIRPERSON: What my understanding is, and I might be wrong Mr Cachalia, is that this test for the hands, is to establish whether the person had been handling some sort of firearm.  So how is that a defence?  Because that would have been evidence for the State.  Because he said they'd, he said he handled a firearm, he handled this other person's firearm when they were at the sports ground.  Then he said when they were arrested he was taken to Morningside and they tested his hands, so that probably, I don't know, probably presented evidence that he had had a firearm.  Now where is the defence?  What?

AZHAR CACHALIA: May I just make it more clear?

MR LAX: Mr Cachalia, maybe what might be helpful is if there's a portion of the judgement where his defence emanates from, read that to him so that it can be crystal clear what you mean and that's what was said in Court on his behalf or by himself, and then the context of what happened to his hands becomes clearer.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, perhaps I am making too many assumptions about has happened in this matter.  In your application form Mr Ndlovu you say that the police circulated something in our hands, put it into a bath, and then arrested us.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, that is so.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And that particular statement was made to contradict the evidence of the State that they had tested your hands and found that you had handled a firearm.

MR NDLOVU: I don't know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, perhaps if I could just read it to him Mr Cachalia.  I'm referring to pages two and three in particular, the bottom of page two, the very last word over to page three, they, that is the police.  This is what you say, or what is said in your application form.  You've explained it wasn't read back to you, but this is what is contained in the form
"...they, that is the police, then wanted a gun from me.  They searched my shack but couldn't find anything.  They took me out to some IFP supporter whom he ordered me to sit down with.  When we sat there a policeman who identified us, the police circulated something in our hands, put it into a bottle and then arrested us."
What you're saying is, here, what is said in your form, is that the police said they want a gun from you, searched your house, didn't find anything, made you sit down with other people, circulated something in your hands, put it into a bottle, and then arrested you.  Now what is meant by that?

MR NDLOVU: Yes that is true as stated, but the only minor mistake that I heard is the one of the house, searching the house.  No, the police did not get as far as my shack.  I was only, I only added at the ground, I never went back to the house.  The next thing they arrested us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia I can recall in his evidence-in-chief he spoke about, and I found it a bit strange at the time he mentioned it, that they came with this bottle in which appeared to be a ballpoint pen and they were asked to write their names.  So I don't know if this, something
"...circulated something in our hands, put it into a bottle"
if that's the ballpoint pen rather than a gun.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Ndlovu perhaps you can help us clear it up.  What did they circulate in your hand?

MR NDLOVU: I have no idea of that thing.  It was the first time I encountered such a thing.  I never had seen it before.  Or it was never administered to me before.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Was something administered on your hand are you saying?  Sorry I'm not understanding your answer please sir.

MR NDLOVU: Yes.  It was my first time seeing that done to me.  Even to other I've never seen it or experienced it.

AZHAR CACHALIA: This was at the ground?

MR NDLOVU: We had just left the ground.  Not too far away from the ground.  Nearby.

MR LAX: Just before you go on Mr Cachalia, he hasn't actually answered your question, your first question.  Mr Ndlovu, we weren't there.  We want you to try and help us.  The question was, was something administered to your hand?  You said this was the first time it had happened to you.  That was your answer.  Did they put a liquid on your hand?  What did they do?  We weren't there.  We want you to explain to us please.

MR NDLOVU: No then I'm with you.  That thing looked like a ballpen as I explained earlier on, they took it out from the glass, and that ballpen was almost purple in colour.  And they will circulate it around my fingers and on my hand.  I don't quite remember 'though if there was something like a bandage that they first put on the hand, and then after they circulated this item.  And they took it back to the bottle and closed that in, and they asked us our names and we told them our names.  And as I was circulating that thing on the hand they kept dipping the thing in the bottle, that's where they will write your name and your surname, as soon as you told them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sounds like some sort of ultra violet type thing like they used in the last elections.  Put on your hand and you put it ...(inaudible)

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Ndlovu, ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just hold on one second Mr Cachalia.

CHAIRPERSON: Apparently it's a method that's used for laboratory testing to test for traces of whatever there might be on a person's hand.  They get a bandage and you are meant to hold the bandage, which is soaked with this liquid.  Or your hands get coated with the liquid and you hold the bandage and the bandage is then sent away to the labs for testing to see what may be on the hand.  But that we can't accept as evidence, but it might be something of that nature, that testing that was taking place.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Chair, I think it might be very helpful because we seem to be quite in the dark as to what in fact happened.  Mr Ndlovu, what you're saying is that before you had reached Morningside police station, after you were arrested at the soccer ground you were taken away before you reached there this was done.  Where was this done?

MR NDLOVU: This was done in the area Zevenfontein.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Alright now, when you were in Court, when the charges were brought against you, what did you say, where did the traces of gunpowder come from?

MR NDLOVU: I was also confused because I did not know where that was from.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Did you give evidence in your defence in your case in the High Court?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And did they put to you the question about the gunpowder on your hand?  The traces of you having handled a firearm, was that put to you in the case in the High Court?

MR NDLOVU: No, I'm mistaken there.  When I heard this gunpowder story on my hands, that was told or relayed to me by my attorney, when he told me that they found traces of the gunpowder on my hands.  I heard of that.