Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I did not know that.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  The reason why I asked the question Mr Maduna, is that it was widely reported in newspapers.  I've got a clipping here of the Weekly Mail, there is clippings of the Cape Times, it is dated March/April 1993 and they talk about the conflict between Mr Nongwe on the one hand, and the ANC on the other hand.

CHAIRPERSON: He has told you that he doesn't know anything about it.  That may well be so, there might be that conflict, but he - unless you are suggesting that he was involved in the conflict.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, that is exactly the line of questioning I was trying to follow, by suggesting that he was involved in the conflict at that point in time, and that there was no politics involved.  It was basically a power struggle between the ANC and Mr Jeffery Nongwe on the other hand.
	Mr Maduna, were you also aware - I mean, this conflict in Crossroads was so important it was reported on the television, and in fact the Goldstone Commission became involved in investigating the causes for the conflict in Crossroads?

MANDLA MADUNA: I think I have already given you the answer.

MR FORTUIN: Now, can you also explain to the Commission, you say the gangsters were attacking your PAC members.  Were they attacking the PAC members in Nyanga, Khayelitsha, Crossroads or where were they being attacked?  Was it only in Crossroads?

MANDLA MADUNA: What I was told that Crossroads attacks, what I was told about was only the Crossroads attacks.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  So you were not informed that there were other attacks in other areas, only in Crossroads, is that correct?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that?

MANDLA MADUNA: I was told by Shaun.

MR FORTUIN: Didn't you feel obliged to question as to who the gangsters were, what their make up was?  I mean you are a member of the PAC and one does not, I assume, just follow orders without questioning the political content, as to why that order is being given?

MANDLA MADUNA: First of all, the Task Force defends members of the PAC, defending them against the government of the oppressors.
	When I am talking about this government of oppressors, I am talking about the government who took the African land and he also took the Africans by force and put them in isolated areas.  Those places today are called townships.
	The same government had laws, the laws that where there to oppress the Africans, using police to impose those laws.  The Task Force even the gangsters who were attacking the members of the PAC, the Task Force was there to defend them, and the members of other organisations whenever they have problems about PAC, they don't come and negotiate politically, but they attack with arms.
	The Task Force was there to protect the PAC against such crimes.  If the order is being issued to me to go and do something, I don't question the order.  I just obey, I just do something, because I knew very well that I was defending the members of the PAC.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, do you know of any incident or incidents where PAC members were attacked by gangsters?

CHAIRPERSON: He told us that he was merely told by Shaun that gangsters attacked PAC members.

MR FORTUIN: Yes Mr Chairperson, I just want to establish whether he with his own, out of his own recollection, knows of any incident whether he read it in the newspaper or whether or TV, whether heard from somebody else, whether there were incidents where the PAC was attacked by gangsters?
	I will follow up that question as well with the other question, as to did this gangsters have names, were they a group of people, were they called the Americans, were they called Chicago Kids or what were they called?

MANDLA MADUNA: What is your question Sir?

MR FORTUIN: My question is, do you out of your own recollection, somebody that told you except these members that you named in the affidavit, have your neighbours told you, have you read it in the newspaper about gangsters attacking PAC members, or even other ordinary PAC members informing you of attacks on them?

MANDLA MADUNA: I won't talk about anything that I heard from TV or newspapers.  As a member of the Task Force, whatever information I got, I used to get it from the Commander.
	I don't listen to anything, I can't even read a newspaper.  I don't listen to anything that I, I don't take anything that I get from TV.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but Mr Maduna, I am afraid I think that is hardly an answer to the question put to you by Mr Fortuin.  	The question that is being put to you is, did anyone else other than the people you have mentioned in your affidavit, tell you about attacks on PAC people at Crossroads?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this apart from Shaun?

ADV SANDI: Apart from Shaun, did anyone tell you about attacks on PAC people that were taking place at Crossroads?

MANDLA MADUNA: Even Wella told me.

ADV SANDI: Who did he say had been attacked?  Did he give you the name of a PAC member who had been attacked?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, there were members who were attacked, PAC members who were attacked.

ADV SANDI: Who were those PAC members?

MANDLA MADUNA: I don't have their names.

MR FORTUIN: Have you ever attended a PAC meeting when you joined the organisation in 1991, as you say in your affidavit?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, sometimes I used to attend the meetings.

MR FORTUIN: During these meetings, did anyone tell you about these attacks?

MANDLA MADUNA: At the time I was still a member of the PAC, I was not yet a member of the Task Force, therefore I was not told about the people who were being attacked.

ADV SANDI: In the course of discussions in those meetings, was it ever mentioned that PAC had a problem in that its members were being attacked, were there any discussions of that sort at those meetings?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.  But I was not present.

MR FORTUIN: Did you ever participate in protest marches of the PAC?

CHAIRPERSON: Of what relevance is all this?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Chairperson, to establish his bona fide as regards to his membership of the PAC.  In the affidavit Mr President, with respect, he says in 1991 he became a member of the PAC and it is only in 1992 when he became a member of the Task Force.
	I assumed that during that period before he became a member of the Task Force, obviously there should have been activities of the organisation that he participated in.  Have you ever participated in activities, protest march or anything of that sort, Mr Maduna?

MANDLA MADUNA: Unfortunately I used to be at work.

MR FORTUIN: What kind of work did you do Mr Maduna?

MANDLA MADUNA: Taxi.

MR FORTUIN: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean?  What work did you do when you say taxi?

MANDLA MADUNA: I used to drive a taxi.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the owner of that taxi?

MANDLA MADUNA: I used to drive for Languza.

ADV SANDI: What are his full names, this Languza?

MANDLA MADUNA: Eric Languza.

ADV SANDI: His address?

MANDLA MADUNA: His address is at NY5 number 38.  I understand he has a new house, I don't know his new address.

MR FORTUIN: Do you know Victor Sam?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: I believe he is also involved in, he owns taxi's, is that correct?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FORTUIN: And I assume you met him while being at the taxi rank working there?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, correct.

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware of the fact that certain allegations has been made against Mr Mbulelo Victor Sam that he is involved in conflict, in armed conflict in Crossroads and those areas?   It is the same person, his first name is Mbulelo, I think Victor Sam.

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat the question.

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware before the incident and after the incident and even while being in prison, that allegations are being made against Mr Mbulelo Victor Sam that he is involved in a conflict in Crossroads and other areas?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, I heard about that whilst I was in prison.