Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

CHAIRPERSON: Does a quarter to two suit you, Gentlemen?
We'll adjourn till a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

J A STEYN: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Very briefly Mr Chairperson, thank you.

MR WILLS: (cont)
	I want to turn, to just consider Shabalala specifically and his position.  You say that very early on, or earlier on his fate was sealed.  Obviously you're referring to the fact that you'd sort of come to the conclusion that he was going to be killed far earlier than that same decision in respect of Ndaba.  Is that correct?

J A STEYN: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now when was this?

J A STEYN: I think it was at a stage when Botha told me that Shabalala had become aware of the fact, or had gained the impression that Ndaba was an informer.

MR WILLS: And why did that information bring you to that conclusion that Shabalala must be killed?

J A STEYN: If he was released he would obviously, he could reveal the fact of his own arrest and detention and also that Ndaba was in our possession.

MR WILLS: Now, didn't you consider not releasing him and holding him?

J A STEYN: No.  Botha did not consider it at that stage and when he discussed the matter with, the idea was that if he was released he would then reveal all the knowledge that he already had.

MR WILLS: I'm not speaking about Mr Botha, Mr Steyn, I'm speaking about you.  Didn't you consider that rather than taking a man's life, you could just detain him for a while longer, for a month or two until this whole saga had blown over?

J A STEYN: He'd already been in detention for quite a few days and Ndaba had already expressed the fact that he was not going to testify and if we were to release him, even if it was only a day or so afterwards, he could then go and reveal all this information.

MR WILLS: Didn't you think it would be more embarrassing to the South African Government negotiating team if it had been found out that you had arrested and cold-bloodedly murdered two people?

J A STEYN: It, if it had become known at that stage, it would have embarrassed the Government.

MR WILLS: In the light of that, surely you should have brought this to their attention?

J A STEYN: We deliberately did not do so.

MR WILLS: Finally, Mr Steyn, your colleague conceded yesterday that it was common practice for a suspect who was arrested by the Security Branch, to be assaulted and tortured by members of the Security Branch, in order to get information.  Do you agree with that?

J A STEYN: Yes, there were many cases in which the people had been assaulted to extract information from them.

MR WILLS: So the chances are that at the least Shabalala would have been assaulted and tortured in order to try and extract information from him, not so?

J A STEYN: There was such a possibility but I'm not aware of it because I didn't visit there at that stage because I never went to the safe-house and not whilst they were being detained there or whilst C20 was there, for the entire duration of the operation I didn't visit there once.

MR WILLS: Isn't it your experience that in the main, people turned to be askaris because of the extreme pain inflicted upon them?

J A STEYN: Not always.  Many people collaborated with us voluntarily.

MR WILLS: Those who didn't collaborate voluntarily, torture was applied to them?

J A STEYN: In many cases, yes.

MR WILLS: And we know that Shabalala, from your evidence, from the evidence of Botha, didn't collaborate with you.

J A STEYN: Yes, according to Botha he didn't.

MR WILLS: So the chances are he had a hard time whilst under your care.

J A STEYN: It is possible, but I can't comment on that.

MR WILLS: And you say that he's been debrief by these Security Policemen under the C20 Unit?

J A STEYN: According to Botha yes, I don't have first-hand information because I wasn't there.

MR WILLS: You see, I put to you that this is the truth about what happened with these two individuals, that you arrested them, you arrested Ndaba first as you say.  He wasn't an informer.  Your unit beat him to the point that he cracked and gave information and that is the reason why the arrest of Shabalala followed at that point and not earlier and the arrest of the other senior people happened after that even and not earlier.

J A STEYN: No.  I can't say that either were assaulted.  What I can say as far as my knowledge went was that Ndaba co-operated.

MR WILLS: And then you beat Shabalala, your unit beat Shabalala so badly that it would have been a political liability had anybody seen him, had a doctor seen him in terms of the detention laws at that stage.

J A STEYN: No. No doctor saw him and I can't tell you whether they were assaulted.

MR WILLS: And that that is the reason why you continually kept their arrest or their detention by your unit a secret from anybody except this small group of murderers.

J A STEYN: Are you referring to the assaults perpetrated on them.

MR WILLS: I am referring to the only reason that I can think as to why you did not reveal these people to your superiors.

J A STEYN: That they were assaulted, is that the question?

MR WILLS: That they were in such a bad way that it would have been just totally and utterly embarrassing for you.

J A STEYN: No, I was not aware of that fact.

MR WILLS: And that when you were told on the 11th that no further arrests were going to be, or that the arrests must wait, sorry I'll rephrase that.  When you were told on the 13th that these people weren't going to be prosecuted, you decided, you knew that they were going to be released and because you hated these terrorists, to use your phrase, so much that you decided hurriedly to kill them before they were released.

J A STEYN: No.  I didn't in my evidence say that I hated these people, at no stage, not in my evidence.

MR WILLS: And I put it to you that this was a frolic of your own and it wasn't in any way politically motivated by your, at least by your superiors, you acted totally on your own with your small group of murderers.

J A STEYN: I didn't inform my seniors of this decision after it was done and we took the decision and I believed that what I was doing at that stage was the correct thing in the circumstances, by agreeing with what Botha had done.

MR WILLS: And the decision to kill them wasn't for all the reasons that you have tried to get us to believe.  The decision to kill them was simply to cover your tracks so that your own people in the police, Gen van der Merwe, your own National Party Politicians, that it wouldn't come to their attention that you'd acted so abominable as regards those people.

J A STEYN: No, we acted on our own and in secret.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MS POSWA: Yes, Mr Chair.  I will try not to cover the questions asked already by my colleague.

MS POSWA: Mr Steyn when did Botha inform you that he had recruited Charles Ndaba as an informer?

J A STEYN: The first time that I could recall that again, was after he had re-entered the country before his arrest.  Previously I had been aware of his recruitment but I was aware of many members in Swaziland and neighbouring countries who had been recruited.  Yes, I remember I think that Ndaba had been recruited earlier but it's difficult to be specific.  We handled a lot of people and those were difficult times.  I'm not sure of that first aspect.  When he told me this after Ndaba had returned, I could recollect it, but it did pass me by for quite a long time.

MS POSWA: When did you learn about Ndaba's presence in South Africa?

J A STEYN: It was after Ndaba had returned to Durban that Botha told me that he'd made contact with Ndaba.

MS POSWA: Well we have documentation to the effect that Ndaba was on the wanted list by the Security Branch and as late as between 1988 and 1989.  How do you reconcile that with the fact that he was meant to have been an informer?  Why would he be on the wanted list under those circumstances?