Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-30

RHANDILE BHAYI: I do not dispute that, as I've said that I was not certain about it.

MS PATEL: Well even at the trials, Sir, you stated that - let's find the reference - you even mentioned at the trial that you were not accompanied by a large group of people, that were only a small number of you.  I refer you to page 15 of the judgement, Honourable Chairperson.  Sorry?  15 of the judgement.
	So it is correct that there were only a small number of people present and not thirty or forty as your co-applicants have told us, not so?

RHANDILE BHAYI: All I'm saying is that that is not correct.

MS PATEL: Sorry, what is not correct?

RHANDILE BHAYI: The fact that we were less than that number that you're talking about.  I agree that in court I made mention of that.  In court I did not tell the truth, more specially on that part, I agree with that.

MS PATEL: So why did you lie?

RHANDILE BHAYI: The reason for me to lie I knew that they were going to ask me to tell them about the other people who were in my company.

MS PATEL: Okay, you also told the court that you were an innocent bystander and that you acted under duress.  Was that also a lie?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is correct.  What I wanted to achieve, I wanted them to release me, I wanted to go home because I was afraid of death sentence because that was a common thing in those times.

MS PATEL: Okay, can you tell us what else you lied about, is there anything else that relates to what the co-applicants have said here?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I don't know you, you are the people who can bring it up.

MS PATEL: Regarding - did you not know Mr Hansel?

RHANDILE BHAYI: No I did not know him but I used to see him.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I think the interpreter has misunderstood the witness.  Can you repeat what you just said?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I did not know him but I used to see him.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, it was my misunderstanding I thought he was saying "it was my first time to see him" but the witness is actually saying ...[indistinct] is that what you are saying?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes I used to see him.

MS PATEL: Sorry, if I can just back track for one minute?  In your application form to us, I refer you to page 6, you've applied for three attempted murders.  Can you tell us who those attempted murders relate to?

RHANDILE BHAYI: When I was convicted in court it was concerning the case of Mr Eric Cobus and this other gentleman, I just forget his name, or Mr Pretorius that is and Mr Hansel.  Those are the charges, those are the cases that I apply for amnesty.

MS PATEL: You stated that at Mr Hansel's place that you were in the house at the time that he was being assaulted.  Can you tell us how big the house is?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I cannot say as to how big was the house.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Did you have the rest of the perpetrators, the rest of the group that was with you, whilst you were in the house, were you in a position to see what the rest of them were doing?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I said I was very busy, I was looking for a firearm in the dressing table.  I noticed Hunsian Ntonga in possession of this firearm pointing on the wall.  If my memory serves me well I think that there was a card on the wall.

MS PATEL: This was obviously after Mr Hansel had been assaulted?  Can you recall whilst you were in the room there you said you saw him with the firearm in his possession, Mr Ntonga, did you see Mr Hansel show him how to use the weapon?

RHANDILE BHAYI: No I did not see that.

MS PATEL: And at the time that the group was leaving or after he had been assaulted and you got the firearm, do you know whether anybody said anything to Mr Hansel?

RHANDILE BHAYI: No, I did not see anything else except the firearm.

MS PATEL: No, I'm asking if you heard anybody say anything to Mr Hansel as you were all departing.

RHANDILE BHAYI: I think there was someone who said something like he must leave his farm.

MS PATEL: Do you have any idea who said that?

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MS PATEL: Do you have any idea who said that to Mr Hansel?

RHANDILE BHAYI: No, I cannot remember.

MS PATEL: Okay.  I'd like to put it to you that it is fact denied that anything of that nature was said to Mr Hansel, that he must leave the farm.

RHANDILE BHAYI: That is not what I say.

MS PATEL: Okay.
ADV. SANDI: Ms Patel, that's being denied by who?

MS PATEL: My information from Mr Hansel's son is that that was never put to his father and also if one reads the judgement the judge at some stage makes mention of the fact that none of the victims were in fact told to leave the premises.  Do you want the reference in the judgement?  Is it fine?  Okay.
	Did you all leave Mr Hansel's place together?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I cannot say so but I only remember that we left the house.

MS PATEL: Sorry, I'm asking very simple questions, Sir, did you all leave the house together or not?

RHANDILE BHAYI: That is why I say I cannot say for certain that we left the house all of us all at once as we were in there we were just all over, we were scattered all over inside the house therefore I cannot say for certain that we left the house all of us and all at once.

MS PATEL: So the impression I get is that everyone was doing their own thing in the house, there was no plan about who would do what, is that what you're saying?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is correct.  We did not tell one another who was going to do this and that.

MS PATEL: So how were you all going to ensure that the objective with which you went there was in fact going to be carried out?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Will you please repeat your question, Ma'am?

MS PATEL: How were you as a group going to ensure that the objective with which you went there was in fact going to be achieved or carried out and achieved if no one had any idea of who was to do what and you're not even sure who left when?

RHANDILE BHAYI: I would like to say that the reason for us to go there was to get weapons and to try and intimidate them to leave their farms knowing very well that there is no person who would be told in his house, who would be told directly like that to leave his house, I know very well that it's very difficult, that was just not possible but we wanted to intimidate them.

MS PATEL: It's not really a response but anyway.  I'd like to move on to the next incident, that is Mr Cobus' farm.  You say that you did not know - sorry Honourable Chairperson, just grant me a moment?  You've been found guilty of the attempted murder of Mr Cobus.  Do you agree that you and the rest of your group tried to kill him or do you deny that?

RHANDILE BHAYI: You want to know if I disagree with the fact that we were trying to kill him?

MS PATEL: Ja.

RHANDILE BHAYI: I would like to say in trying to explain the situation the situation prevailing at the time and the way he was shooting at us and he is the person who shot first, that was expected for him to be injured.   ...(inaudible) they could not see him therefore it was possible for him to get injured.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Are you saying, however, that you and your group acted in self-defence because he was shooting at you?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes I want to say that is correct because our intentions for us to go there was to do the same as we did at Mr Hansel's place if he did not fire we were not going to fire at him, we were just going to talk to him and intimidate him and try to assault him there and then and try to get the weapons that they were looking for.

MS PATEL: Okay.  I move on now to the Senti and Pretorius incident.  You state that you were - just generally from your evidence that you've given us now, you state that you were merely in the background and that you didn't really participate in that incident.  In fact you were shocked when you realised that Mr Senti had been shot?

RHANDILE BHAYI: Yes that is correct.