Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I can't exactly recall in what detail to Mr de Kock what roll this man is going to play. I probably wouldn't say that this was a key witness because if you read the statements you would see that there are even more important witnesses.  I've said if there's a man that I would like to use as a witness and Mr de Kock also said so in the trial.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Let me ...(indistinct) what you said in one of the other statements initially, you said in the light of the mentioned, I contacted Mr de Kock and I requested him to take George in again as an askari and to keep him available.  You even said if the attorney general were to refuse to prosecute Mrs Mandela this could be seen as the execution of a command of Mr Erasmus and then you referred to the copy.  Mr de Kock then indicated that he understood the situation and he accepted to take George in and kills Mr Mabota the next day.  I simply can't understand the rational behind that.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Alright if I am a manager of the activities of which Mr de Kock and his colleagues are being accused, from his framework and operational framework at that stage, ...(indistinct) it's a totally different framework of reference. I have heard from the amnesty applications if somebody left Vlakplaas and he's been caught again, he's been killed, I was never aware of that.  I would never have sent the man to that place if that were the case.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Could I just ask you with another aspect, if you wanted to see that he comes to his destination safely, why didn't you take him to Vlakplaas personally, that was the afternoon after five.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I explained why that was the case and I can't say exactly Mr de Kock had to come and collect him.  I might have come and done that myself but I can't tell.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Why didn't you call Mr de Kock and ask him to  send one of the other persons to come and fetch Mr Mabota, why did the commander of Vlakplaas have to do it.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No that was not the case, that was never the intention, I had the arrange with him that if he sent somebody else I would have accepted that, I wouldn't have had a problem with that because I know number of the members of Vlakplaas.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Did you report to the generals or to the Attorney General that de Kock said that Mr Mabota had left Vlakplaas?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No I didn't deem it possible because at that stage things happened so quickly that I realised that it was a useless exercise.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.   Mr du Plessis.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will be brief.
 Col Potgieter, page 47 of your statement can you just page to that page please?  Can you just read an answering of a number of questions about why you didn't ask anybody about why Mr Mabota was sent to Vlakplaas and I'm referring to 428.15.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: "At a later date I saw de Kock and asked him about George's health.  He told me that George had left but did not elaborate and I assumed that he had deserted, gone away as he and I had arranged before.  Before that I contacted the Security Branch telephonically and asked them to find out about George.  I followed up the telephonic conversation with a telex and later heard that George had apparently never arrived at his parents house.  There after I was appointed as the commanding officer of the Soweto Security Branch's intelligence Department and had very little contact with the investigating component.  Shortly thereafter certain political changes took place in South Africa and I knew that the Attorney General would probably not prosecute Mrs Mandela."

UNKNOWN: So you weren't any longer responsible for this high treason case investigation were you?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No I wasn't.

UNKNOWN: So the Attorney General would not have called you if he wanted to use Mabota as a witness?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Well let's put it this way, Klaas and I were good friends and he would have phoned me.

UNKNOWN: But it wasn't part of your work any more?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Col Kritzinger then took over as commander of that unit.

UNKNOWN: If you had not sent Mabota to Vlakplaas but as has been suggested, put him on a train to his family, given the fact that he had very sensitive information about Mrs Mandela's
actions and also the liberation movement's actions, and that he had divulged those to you, did you have an idea that his life might be in danger?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes I think that speaks for itself.

UNKNOWN: Was that a reason why you sent him to Vlakplaas?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: It could have been one of the factors.  His safety was important, it was a worry to me, it could have been one of the factors.

UNKNOWN: And Colonel, this document that you refer to which is not attached to your statement or to this statement which gives the policy as to how arrested terrorists are recruited to become informers or to work with the police, what did that provide for?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: It provided for arrested MK and APLA members, not prosecuted because of transgressions that they would be recruited to work as askaris at Vlakplaas, at Section 7 of Vlakplaas.

UNKNOWN: And in your amnesty hearing do you also apply for certain aspects for which you might in a civilian sense be liable, not so?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes that's correct.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the Commission has no questions for you either.  You have spent a very long time not in the witness box but sitting there, and I appreciate your willingness to testify and your patience and I thank you.  You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Before I call the next witness let me say that because of the time factor there is going to be no recess or no break for tea.  I'm quite happy to be fairly lenient about people getting up and walking around but I'm not going to have a break; people can choose their own break and secondly I'm going to remind the photographers that because we've got a job to do, I've got no problem with that at all but I'll ask you to observe normal decency and respect in doing your job.  I'm sure I don't have to say that but for the record it's important for me to have it done.

CHAIRPERSON: I call Col de Kock.  I'll give the photographers a few minutes and then I'll ask you to leave. Col de Kock thank you for being here.  You need to take the oath and I'll as Ms Sooka to administer it, thank you.

EUGENE DE KOCK: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Col de Kock, before I ask your legal representative to lead you, I want to ask you one question which probably is going to be the easiest question you've had for a very long time.  Is it true that today is your birthday.

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you may find it easy to answer that question.  Within the circumstances in which you find yourself, either here or from where you have come, may I say that as one human being to another, happy birthday.

MR DE KOCK: Mr Chairman I appreciate it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr de Kock do you have the document in front of you that was set up in the form of a sworn statement and in which you speak about the questions in reaction to the witness subpoena that you received?

MR DE KOCK: Yes I have.

MR HUGO: Did you go through the document and sign it? And it was properly sworn and attested to?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: You say that you received the notice and that you are willing to answer all the questions as far as you know and you say that, you mentioned the aspects in the notice with which you were confronted and you say that you are a moment a prisoner at C-Max in the Maximum Security Prison in Pretoria, is that correct.

MR DE KOCK: Yes sir.