Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chair, I don't know whether this is an appropriate time, I am not sure about what I am saying, maybe Mr Wills can confirm this with his clients, I think I heard from one of the clients that this photo was taken when she was pregnant or something?  I don't know if we can ascertain that here.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MS THABETHE: I think I heard something like that earlier on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, maybe we will get some clarity on that later, thank you Ms Thabethe.  Yes, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  I know that I am causing a lot of inconvenience, but could I perhaps ask for the petticoat, Exhibit 3?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the slip or the petticoat ...

MR VISSER: To be shown to the witness.  Mrs Dludla, I understood you to say today that Ms Kubheka had large hips, is that what you said?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, she had big hips, but not that she was too large.

MR VISSER: Alright, can you give us an indication from where you are sitting, how, as you remember her, how wide, how broad were here hips, can you just give us an indication?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: When Ntombi disappeared, I wasn't this size, I have put on weight today.

MR VISSER: Yes, you misunderstood you, I didn't want to know how wide your hips were, I wanted you to explain if you could, how wide the hips of Ntombi were?

MR VISSER: Is that what you are doing?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: That is what I was doing, not bigger than this, maybe a little bit like this for me, not to say like this.

MR VISSER: I understand, but just give us some idea.

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Maybe like this.

MR VISSER: She is holding her hands Chairperson, just away from her hips it seems.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, about two inches on either side.

MR VISSER: Probably that.  Probably that.  And you wouldn't know, I don't suppose, how broad your hips are if one measured them?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: No.

MR VISSER: Alright, thank you.   I want to show you Exhibit 3.
	I want you please to tell this Committee whether that slip will fit you?

CHAIRPERSON: The slip is being held up by Ms Thabethe.  Can you take a look at it, Mrs Dludla, behind you.  I think if you can just come to the front, sorry Ms Thabethe.

MR VISSER: Perhaps it might be helpful if you just could stand up again, Mrs Dludla.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Thabethe, it is difficult to see from here, but would that slip have had elastic in the top?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, elastic top, yes.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I don't want to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is difficult to ...

MR VISSER: It is now becoming very difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: I suggest we measure, we will ask Mrs Dludla to measure and we measure that petticoat and the rest will be argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, because one must also bear in mind that you know, if you measure a garment that's got elastic, you don't wear it so that the elastic is not getting any larger, do you know what I mean?

MR VISSER: Not really Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, when you put it on, the elastic expands ...

MR VISSER: No, we will certainly expand it as far as it will go.

CHAIRPERSON: When it is measured, it should be - yes, that is what I am trying to get at.

MR VISSER: No, no, that we will certainly do, absolutely, yes.

MR LAX: You will obviously take care not to break it, bearing in mind how old it is?

CHAIRPERSON: We will get an expert to measure it.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I believe I don't have any further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, I am sorry, I do.  I am terribly sorry.  I am just, the last thing I want to ask you to explain to us, Mrs Dludla is how exactly did you recognise this dress, did you just look at it and say "I recognise the dress" or did you examine the dress and then recognise it?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: When I arrived in the place where there were dresses, I just pointed at this one, and I said "I do recognise this dress as Ntombi's dress".

MR VISSER: Yes.  Alright.  So, I take it your answer means that you did not examine the dress, you just looked at it and you recognised it?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I did touch the dress with my hands when I looked at it.

MR VISSER: Yes.   Did you recognise it from the flowers and the colour or was there anything else that you recognised the dress from?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: The colour.

MR VISSER: Now, when you saw that dress, did you see that the dress was, did you see that the dress was perished in some places, do you know what I mean when I say perished, like it was torn?

MR LAX: Frayed is probably a better word?

MR VISSER: Frayed, yes, thank you.  Were there holes in the dress somewhere?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: And you told us before that you were told that by the brother of Ms Kubheka, that she had been exhumed?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did you think that the dress was exhumed with her?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: And did the fact that there were holes in the dress, did that make you think that that was the dress that was exhumed with the body?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Hugo, do you have any questions?

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman, just two or three.  Mrs Dludla, during this time we are talking about, April or May 1987, did you notice that there were vehicles coming to visit Ms Kubheka from time to time?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, I did.

MR HUGO: Can you just try and give us a description of the vehicles that came to visit her?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: I never took notice or I never paid that much attention to remember what type of cars they were.

MR HUGO: Can you remember whether they were normal passenger cars, sedan vehicles, or kombis?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: No, I don't remember.

MR HUGO: I take it you cannot remember whether the windows of these vehicles were tinted or not?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: No, I do not remember, I never came closer to those cars.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And on that fateful day when she disappeared, can you remember how she got to the station?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, I do remember.

MR HUGO: Can you just tell us how did she get there?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: She  walked towards another street where, at the corner of that street, that is where she was going to take a taxi.  She was going to go to another taxi rank to take taxis to Durban station.

MR HUGO: Yes, thank you, and then just lastly you said that you can remember, I am referring to page 95 of Bundle 2, that she disappeared on a Friday.  Can you just tell us why are you so sure that it was on a Friday?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: ... (tape ends) ... myself and her mother who went to King Edward, looking for her and we couldn't find her.   Then we decided to go to Verulam mortuary, but then we didn't have transport to go there, we asked somebody to take us there.

MR HUGO: And just finally, can you remember what was Ms Kubheka's occupation at the time of her disappearance?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: She was unemployed.

MR HUGO: And did you have any information as to whether she was involved in political activities at the time, or not?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: No, I do not know.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hugo.  Mr Nel, do you have any questions?

MR NEL: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I have one or two questions. There has been a bit of evidence that has come up, that I would like to take some instructions on, I see that it is just about one o'clock, I ask if we could take the lunch adjournment at this stage, then I can cover that and commence examination after lunch?