Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.  The shots that were fired into the air and over the heads of the marchers are the shots that are depicted on sketch plan 3, accepting of course that those shots were fired on that day.  And then we make the point in 4.5 that certain of the shots which were fired in the direction of Shell House did not reach Shell House and might well have struck one or more of the marchers instead, we've dealt with that already.
	As far as the remaining sketch plans are concerned, sketch plan 5 really deals with visibility, those are not shots - gunshots which are depicted there, it's from a certain position on street level, one can see a certain floor or floors of Shell House, those are definitely not gunshots depicted on sketch plan 5.  And then sketch plan 6 and 7 show the relevant measurements.
	The only point of the joint report which requires further comment, Chairperson, is the paragraph headed, "Trefpunte SW1", which appears in bundle "B" at page 169, I'm dealing with paragraph 5 of our memorandum.  In summary, what the report says is that those shots which were fired into the underside of the balcony at the corner of King George and Plein Street, there are 12 holes and all 12 holes are AK47, that is indicated by all those red lines moving up as well as the red line - the thick red line.  Now I've annexed at page 35 of the memorandum the relevant part of Superintendent Du Plessis's evidence where he was asked about those 12 holes and where he was questioned on 2 of the 12, if I could just stand back for a minute, 10 of the 12 were associated together, and then there were 2 which were further south, in fact on the other side of a advertising board, and he was asked whether those two that were further south were compatible with 9mm shots and not AK47 shots.  And he says at line 20, or he's asked at line 20, page 35, 
"Again let me just put it to you shortly, you have already said that you cannot exclude that might be a handgun, those two holes are completely compatible with a handgun, a 9mm?"
and his answer is,
"I can exclude it - ek kan dit nie uitsluit nie Edele."
And then he's asked further, 
"Would you - perhaps could you just go a little bit further, it is completely compatible."
and is answer,
"Ja, dit is heeltemaal versoenbaar met 'n 9mm wapen of enige ander groot kaliber handwapen."
That evidence and that concession by Superintendent Du Plessis is very important, Chairperson, you would already have heard the evidence that when the guards fired warning shots, Mr Veejay Ramie, now deceased, fired two warning shots with a 9mm handgun directly upwards into the balcony, and originally the report didn't provide any support for that because it was 12 AK47 shots, but read with the evidence of Du Plessis, the concession was made that those first two shots are completely compatible with a 9mm handgun.
	If I could then turn to page 3 of the memorandum, dealing with the observations at Lancet Hall.  Again there was a joint report commissioned.  The joint report was preceded by a report by Mr Lubbe who was appointed to act on behalf of the ANC.  Mr Lubbe's report was subsequently agreed to and included in the joint report.  The joint report appears at pages 189 - 196 of bundle "B" and particularly paragraphs 2.1 and 2.2 at pages 191 and 192 are of importance.  I won't read them, I will just summarise what they say, and it's particularly relevant in the light of the evidence which the Committee has just heard from Mr Simelane, and that is, the experts agreed, no 1, that the deceased was struck and killed by a bullet fired from a high calibre rifle, Mr Chonco the deceased represented by Mr van Wyk this morning, he was struck and killed by a bullet fired from a high calibre rifle, they said it was either R1, R5 or AK47.  7.2,
"The deceased was not struck", it was positively excluded, "not struck by a shotgun pellet",
and 3,
"The damage to the inner side of the garage gate was caused by a shot fired from a shotgun."
What happened was, that Mr Lubbe went to the gate and inspected it, and he found damage on the inside of the gate which was consistent with shots fired from a shotgun.  That then concludes the observations and the joint report.  What then happened was - well what in fact in time happened a lot earlier, was that certain exhibits were recovered from Shell House and recovered from the bodies of the deceased.  Those exhibits were analyzed by Superintendent Du Plessis.  The exhibits recovered by the Police at Shell House are listed in Superintendent Du Plessis's affidavit which was apposed to him in June 1994, that is copied for the Committee at page 8 of the memorandum and marked "B", the Andries Hendrik du Plessis is the Superintendent du Plessis who gave evidence at the inquest.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Berger, I don't appear to have a page 8 in this bundle I've been given.  Page 1 is clearly missing,

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: But anyway, we can sort that out later, I'm sure.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry, I appear to be the only one who has a page 8.  It's the first page of - do you have page 9?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: And page 9 is the second page of Du Plessis's affidavit.  We will have page 8 copied and inserted.  It's a pity that you don't have page 8 because at the bottom of page 8, paragraph 3.1, he records, "Een 7,65mm kaliber Zastawa selflaai pistool" with a magazine.  That was a gun that was retrieved by the Police from amongst the - when the marchers fled they dropped a lot of weapons, it's shown on photographs and there's a photograph which we will hand in, but amongst those weapons and amongst the people who fell, this "selflaai pistool" was recovered by the Police on that day.  Also at the top of page 9, fortunately you have it at this time, 3.3 "Een .38 kaliber tuisvervaardigde vuurwapen", that home-made gun was also seized by the Police from amongst the injured marchers at the scene on the day.  All the other exhibits which are marked 3.4 - 3.14.4 were also seized by the Police at the scene on the day immediately after the incident.  Further exhibits were recovered by the Police, and they are recorded by Superintendent Du Plessis in annexure C which starts at page 12.  Now if I can just be clear on what those all are, hopefully you have page 12, Chairperson.  3.1 through to 3.10 are bullets and ammunition, if I can call it that, recovered from bodies of deceased persons.  You will see next to each description of the ammunition, there's a "pm" number, that's a post-mortem number.  The first 8 post-mortem numbers referred to people who died at Shell House, the other post-mortem numbers refer to people who died at Library Gardens.

MR LAX: I notice 352 doesn't have a number next to it, is that the same as 351?

MR BERGER: Yes, if you go according to 351, yes.  In addition to the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just from the bodies of those that were killed, or from those that were wounded as well?

MR BERGER: Only deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Only the deceased.