Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: ut you were also awareof the fact, weren't you that churches provided missionary work to help underprivilegedpeople such as yourself?

<UNKNOWN>: re you asking whether I had aknowledge of that?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Please repeat yourquestion, I did not understand very well.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Were you aware ofthe fact that many, many churches did missionary work to assist underprivilegedpeople, such as yourself?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I did not know about thatand I did not read about that.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Never heard it talked about?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You only discovered as I understand yourevidence, that the target that evening was to be the church at a time when youwere approaching it?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I did not find that when we were approachingthe church, but I only see when we got there, when I saw a board written outside.That was when I noticed that it was a church.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you then knowthat the church was your target?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Toyour knowledge that church could have been half full of

<UNKNOWN>: lack people, half fullof White people?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, we did not know.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Exactly,you did not know. So you could have been causing injury and death to

<UNKNOWN>: lack people,had there been

<UNKNOWN>: lack people in that church that evening?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Is that a question sir?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Please explainyour question again sir.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: When you realised that you were goingto attack the church, more specifically the people in the church, there couldhave been many, many

<UNKNOWN>: lack people at that service as far as you were aware?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I did not think about that.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You did not thinkabout that.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Do I understand then thatthe attack upon the church was a revenge attack because when the land you saywas taken away from your people, they were using the churches, the Whites wereusing the churches, was this then a revenge attack?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: It wasnot a revenge, but we just wanted our land to be brought back to us. Not thatwe were revenging because churches were used to oppress our people, but we justwanted the land to be brought back to us.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Wasn't this just anact of mindless barbarity?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Notwithstandingeleven people were killed and a considerable number of people were seriouslyinjured, defenceless people at prayer?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Is that a questionsir?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Do you want me to put the question again?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Was this not an act of mindless barbarity, perpetratedon people who were in a house of worship, a house of God at prayer on a Sundayevening, when many people were killed and many, many more seriously injured?

<UNKNOWN>: t that time, we were fighting.

<UNKNOWN>: ccording to my understandingevery target would be attacked.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: So you were fighting and youdecided to fight unarmed, defenceless, peaceful people who were at prayer inthe house of God?

<UNKNOWN>: an you please repeat your question becauseI don't clearly understand.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: No, I don't want to put it againMr

<UNKNOWN>: hairperson. I will read to you a copy of a letter I received from one ofthe victims in fairness, because the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee has it and I indicate that thisgentleman who is not present, apposes the application. I want to read his letterto you and you may comment on it if you wish. I, Dimitri Makogon, will be outof

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town on July the 9th and 10th, 1997 and do wish to make known my opinionregarding the amnesty application by those responsible for the St James massacrein which I lost both legs and my right arm. The aim of the TR

<UNKNOWN>: is to establishthe truth, the truth is that on July the 25th, 1993, the three applicants killed11 and injured more than 50 civilians, gathered in a church, unarmed and defenceless.Would you like to comment on that?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The only thing I wouldlike to say is I don't know when you say he is not in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town, Dimitri ...?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Dimitri Makogon, I don't know whether the pronunciation is correct.He was in church that evening.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I really don't know but Iwould like to meet him and apologise to him. Maybe he would understand becausewhat we did was not right, we do regret that, but I wish we could meet withhim, maybe he would like to listen when we try to apologise.

<UNKNOWN>: ut I don't knowwhen you say he is not in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town to show that we are sincerely apologising.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman,I have been asked by one of the victims behind me, I have just had a note passedto ask one further question of this applicant if I may be given leave to dothat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It is actually two questionsMr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. You said that when you went to church, or you say that you didn'tgo to church and you identified the Uluntu community centre as the place whereyou went to church, is that correct?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, not at Uluntucommunity centre, it is

<UNKNOWN>: frican Gospel

<UNKNOWN>: hurch, NY79 in Guguletu.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I beg your pardon, I misunderstood the question. You said you went to a meetingat the Uluntu community centre?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: When?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You said in your statement you went to a meeting there?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: When, in which meeting?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You said on the Sunday the 25th...

JUDGE WILSON: He didn't say they went to a meeting, he said they metat the Uluntu community centre.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You met Mr Nonxuba at theUluntu community centre of the 25th of July 1993, is that correct?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Was that the blue centre in Khayelitsha,in Site

<UNKNOWN>: , next to the railway line?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, the one I am talkingabout it is in Guguletu, at NY108.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Okay, thank you verymuch. The second question ....

CHAIRPERSON: It is not the second one, butI am allowing you. Do carry on.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You say that

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: assumedthat St James was in a White group area? Do you yourself know whether that isin fact correct?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I am not sure whether it is true or not.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE

<UNKNOWN>: re you aware that on the time of your attack, Kenilworth wasno longer a White group area and that there were people of other races livingin Kenilworth?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I didn't know that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

<UNKNOWN>: ut was it a traditionally so-calledWhite area?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I must be honest, as I stated at the outset,it was a question passed to me by one of the victims, I cannot state categorically,but I assume that it was a traditionally White area.

<UNKNOWN>: ny re-examination?

RE-BY ADV ARENDSE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, just shortly. Firstly, I think Imade the point in my opening statement, I don't think the applicant mentionedthat in his affidavit or in his evidence, about St James being in a White area?

<UNKNOWN>: assie, did you identify St James as a target? The church?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I don't know. I never heard anyone identifying St James as a target, whatI knew is that we were going to an operation.

NORMAN ARENDSE: In your opinion,would

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: identify a target which had mostly

<UNKNOWN>: lack people in it, would youexpect them to identify a target like that?