Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all.  This is the 11th day of February 1999.  This Panel comprising myself, Judge Khampepe.  On my right-hand side, Advocate Francis Bosman, on my left-hand side, Mr Ilan Lax.
	Will counsel appearing for the applicant in the matter we are going to hear please place himself on record.

MR MOTEPE: My name is Advocate Jabu Motepe, I'm appearing for the applicant in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: You instruction by which firm of attorneys?

MR MOTEPE: I was instructed directly by the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you're instructions are from the Legal Aid Board.

MR MOTEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: I'm Ms Thabile Thabete for the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Today we are going to hear the application of Mr Levy Ramonana Makoe.  Is that the person who are appearing for, Mr Motepe?

MR MOTEPE: That is correct, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to give any oral evidence?

MR MOTEPE: Well we have prepared an affidavit, but we might just want to ask one or two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Makoe, will you please stand up to take an oath.

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.
	The ball is in your court, Mr Motepe.

MR MOTEPE: As I've already indicated, Madam Chair, Members of the Committee, I have prepared an affidavit and I wish to read it into the record if that will please you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to read it into the record or do you simply want to have Mr Makoe confirming the correctness thereof, and merely traverse issues that you feel are important for him to traverse?  Would that curtail our proceedings?

MR MOTEPE: Well whatever will please this Committee I'll be willing to follow.

CHAIRPERSON: I feel that you should traverse issues that you feel should be traversed in viva voce, otherwise let your confirm the correctness of the contents of the affidavit.

MR MOTEPE: At this stage, should I ask him directly in Sotho?

CHAIRPERSON: In whatever language you may choose to do so, it will be translated into English.  Our record is in English.  You may do so in Sesotho.

MR MOTEPE: As the Court pleases.
	Mr Makoe, I prepared this affidavit and you've signed it.  I've explained everything in this particular affidavit.  Can you tell the Committee that you understood everything that I told you, that you actually instructed me to put in there?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: That is correct.

MR MOTEPE: Do you agree that this is your evidence?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: Yes, I do.

MR MOTEPE: It has been confirmed.  May I hand it up?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so, Mr Motepe, and it will be Exhibit B.  Before you proceed with your client's evidence, Mr Motepe, we just want to get clarity in respect of the actual offences for which amnesty is being sought by Mr Makoe.  We do not have a copy of the record so we are unable to establish whether Mr Makoe was convicted of robbery and also of contravening the offences which appear on page 202, which is the copy of the indictment.

MR MOTEPE: My instructions are that he was convicted on a count of murder and these other three concerning arms and ammunition.  Those are the only ones where amnesty is being sought.  I don't know if that is enough.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, maybe you may then when you lead him in his evidence, because no mention has been made at all of the offences relating to the unlawful possession of firearms and weapons, that does not appear in his application form.  We will however allow you to apply for an amendment in order to include those two offences.

MR MOTEPE: The amendment I have to do it in a written ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You can formally do it now.

MR MOTEPE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: You can just bring it to our attention that your instructions are to apply for amnesty in respect of the murder as well as in respect of unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition.

MR MOTEPE: May I be given about two minutes ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, consider it done, you've now done so.

MR MOTEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Motepe.

MR MOTEPE: Now Mr Makoe, you were convicted for possession of firearms and ammunition as well, and you haven't stated anything about that in the affidavit, do you wish to, can you please tell the Committee where you got those arms, were you licensed?  Were you licensed to have the firearm and the ammunition, that is the bullets?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: I was not licensed to be in possession of ammunition and weapons, these were the unit's weapons and ammunition.

MR MOTEPE: What do you mean when you say the unit?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: I'm referring to the Self Defence Unit.

MR MOTEPE: Who specifically gave you those ammunitions and weapons?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: These were distributed by the commander of the unit.  How we got them, we got them by disarming the police.

MR MOTEPE: Okay.  Now did you - the particular weapon that he had, did you disarm the police of the specific firearm that was in your position?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: The unit disarmed the police was so this firearm was also found in that process of disarming the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motepe, the way I understand your client to be saying is that the weapons were used by the unit at large were weapons which had been obtained inter alia by disarming policemen, and that is how the unit at large was able to obtain the weapons that were used.  However, maybe you should find out from him what firearm was used in this incident for which amnesty is being sought. - the incident being the murder of the person for whom he is applying for amnesty.
	What firearm did you have with you when you killed Anna Mingi Feni?

MR MOTEPE: Can you first tell us what kind of firearm was it.

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: It was a 9mm Z88.

MR MOTEPE: Was it loaded, how many?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: It had 15 bullets in the magazine and the one was in the chamber.

MR MOTEPE: You've already indicated that this was a unit firearm and you were given it by the commander.  For the record, who was this man?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: I only know him by his combat name, Ace.

MR MOTEPE: Okay.  In your evidence you told us that you shot at the victim and her sister was next to you at that time.  Now when you shot this person, and there was a witness, can you please explain to the Committee did it not come to your mind that she would be a witness against you?  Was it not easy for you to eliminate her as well?  Why did you only think of killing this Feni?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: The commander ordered me to eliminate the victim.  I would not at any stage, at any point go beyond those orders.  I knew that the sister would be the witness in the Court of law but I would not take the law into my own hands and shoot the person I was not ordered to shoot.  That is the reason why I shot at the only person I was ordered to.

MR MOTEPE: If I understand you well, you were only following the orders.

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: As a soldier I was supposed to follow the orders, I was not in the position to follow any other order, but the only order that I was given.

MR MOTEPE: Did you use these weapons for any other reason?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: No, we had these firearms for defence in the township, but we never used them anywhere.

MR MOTEPE: Now if I understand you well, you used these weapons and ammunitions only when you were given orders, or could you use them on your own?

LEVY RAMONANA MAKOE: I said I would never go beyond given orders. I would not use these weapons and ammunitions for my own good, I would only use them when an order was given out.  And I told you these weapons had never been used before this incident, but they were in my possession all the time until I was arrested.

MR MOTEPE: Madam Chair and Members of the Committee, most of the evidence is in the affidavit, I don't know if I should highlight some of the things, which specific ones.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, is this murder opposed?

MS THABETE: No, Madam Chair.