Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-06

MR DEHAL: Now here he says
"Now you say in June '86 ..."
This is a question posed to him -
"Now you say in June '86 your bars were multiracial, were they bars which were habitually frequented by members of all race groups?"
He answers -
"Magoo's bar is an action bar.  It's got a band playing in there and quite often, well most occasions the group normally has a non-European in the band.  So we do get quite a few of the non-European coming in to listen to the group and things like that, but I would say that it's not a popular non-European bar."
The question then is -
"What's non-European?  I don't understand non-European, what's non-European?"
He says -
"Well, I mean Asiatics and Indians, that type of thing."
The question is -
"What's the difference between an Asiatic and an Indian?"
On the next page, 802, the question continues -
"I don't know.  Is Asiatic classified as Indian?"
Oh sorry, that's the answer -
"I don't know.  Is Asiatic classified as Indian?"
		"Well, Coloured, Indians and Africans. Does that make it more clear?"
		"Alright, carry on"
Then he answers -
"Well it's not popular with that crowd, I mean they don't come in that often, but they do come in as musicians and listen to the band and that type of thing, but it is predominant white."
The question then is -
"That's Magoo's you are talking about?"
And he answers -
"Well both Magoo's and Why Not"
The questioner -
"Do they both have bands there?"
And he answers -
"No, no, Magoo's has a band, Why Not hasn't, it's got background music."
Then the questioner -
"Mr Davidson, my recollection - now perhaps you can just correct me, my recollection of one of the bars, the Why Not or Magoo's or both, is that the windows to them are tinted.  Is that correct?"
He says -
"That is correct, yes"
And the questioner -
"And it's not that easy to see in?"
He answers -
"During the day it's difficult, but in the evening when the lights are on in the bar you can see through them"
Okay.  Do you remember that, do you see that, do you confirm that's the transcript?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, I have that, I confirm it thanks.

MR DEHAL: So you say you entered the Why Not, at the time you were at the entrance door when you were told it was full?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: And often Magoo's has been confused in this operation with the Why Not, correct?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, if I may show you Exhibit D.  This is on a separate issue altogether.  This is an exhibit that was shown to Mr Ismail, it's the one that has all the Russian language on it and I think refers to a limpet mine.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, that's correct.

MR DEHAL: Are you familiar with that sort of document?  Have you seen documents like these before?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, very similar documents are found in the package where you have detonators and fuses in.  So whoever has this, has access to a detonator or a fuse. Very likely so, because it's sealed.  But I've never seen one that's in Afrikaans, always in Russian.  So this one to me has been doctored.

MR DEHAL: Now you say it has some Afrikaans.  Of course it's not totally in Afrikaans, it has predominantly Russian and you see the words on the top "Loodstraviteitsakelaar"(?) and then below that in the left "Groen/Green, Rooi/Red, Swart/Black, Wit/White".  Those are the Afrikaans words, apart from that the rest is Russian, correct?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Now you've seen documents like this before, it's never had Afrikaans and Russian, do you agree?

MR MCBRIDE: It's highly unlikely that that's the case.

MR DEHAL: So you say this document is doctored, it's not the original?

MR MCBRIDE: No, it's not.

MR DEHAL: I understand that you met with the family of the deceased, Mlungisi Buthelezi, that's the deceased in the Edendale operation.  Is that correct?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: And the meeting was at the request of the Buthelezi family.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: You, Mr Ismail and the family met together.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Can you tell us what the purpose of that meeting was and what happened.

MR MCBRIDE: The family explained to me that it's the first time they heard who actually caused the death of the child and the injury to Nkosinathi Nkabinde, and the main purpose of the meeting was reconciliation between myself and the family and I apologised to them and explained the circumstances in which their loved ones were injured and killed and both families explained to me after quite a moving situation, that they have nothing against me and they forgive me.

JUDGE PILLAY: Did you speak to the person that was injured?

MR MCBRIDE: No, I have not, only the parents of the injured person was here.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr McBride.  Is there anything else you wish to add?

MR MCBRIDE: Not at this stage.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, that is all.  May I hand back Exhibit D, which has been with me and the Photographs.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dehal.  Mr Berger, are there any questions that you'd like to put to the witness?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson, there's just one aspect I'd like to clear up.
	Mr McBride, yesterday in your opening statement, Exhibit F, you stated - perhaps you'd like to get Exhibit F before you.

MR MCBRIDE: I have that, Sir.

MR BERGER: On page 4, the second paragraph you said that
"Our overall Commander was Aboobaker Ismail, who reported directly to the NEC, and in particular to the then President Oliver Tambo."
Would it not be more correct to say that comrade Rashid, Mr Ismail, reported to comrade Joe Slovo at Military Headquarters, rather than to say that comrade Rashid reported directly to the NEC?

MR MCBRIDE: That's possible correct.  I think the confusion arises from the fact that the situation changed at a later stage.  I can't remember exactly when.

MR BERGER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Berger.  Ms Kooverjee, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MS KOOVERJEE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I just have a few things to clarify with Mr McBride.
	Mr McBride, you will recall Mr Lecordier who gave evidence on behalf of the State in your earlier trial and featured as a State witness in the trial of Derrick McBride.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MS KOOVERJEE: Do you agree that much of his evidence in the trial was in the main false?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, that's correct, yes.

MS KOOVERJEE: Has Mr Lecordier since apologised to you and members of your unit, and you agree that you have since accepted the apology and reconciled with him?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, he began the reproachment long before the ANC came into power, when I was still in prison.  And when my father was released from prison he approached my father first and he I think, visited me on a number of occasions in prison.  So his remorse was genuine and I never doubted it, so I forgave him.  He's not my enemy, I don't have grudges against him.

MS KOOVERJEE: Mr McBride, I refer you to bundle C, on page 25 to line 28, where you speak about Mr Lecordier and I quote you said
"He was going to go out and there was a discipline problem with him."
Can you please clarify what you meant by "discipline problem"?