Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir, except the one I talked about yesterday, that when I heard about this, I told the African that, African did you hear that the armed struggle had been suspended and he answered about it yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: We heard all this yesterday Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: So apart from speaking to the African who you can't identify, that was the only discussion you had?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't follow you sir?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take an adjournment at this stage, a short adjournment, 15 minutes.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ZUKILE MBAMBO: (still under oath)

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I be granted an opportunity just to put the record straight?  I do apologise and I have explained the matter and we have clarified the matter with Adv Collett.
	The information that the Policeman gave to her at the trial, was that he was investigating other matters against her clients and if amnesty hadn't been made in those matters, he would be obviously  arresting them, without specifying what those matters were.
	I apologise, I misunderstood that, seeing that that information was given to me in the context of Fort Knox.  I have apologised to Adv Collett and I place it on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there is just one other aspect, on behalf of the Williams family, that is the Policeman who was killed, it seems from the evidence that that incident is removed somewhat in time from the attack at Da Gama on the bus.
	However, the family requested me to put one question to the - or a proposition to the applicant, for his comment, if I may be permitted to do that.
	Mr Mbambo, when you went on the Da Gama mission, did you as a unit or as a group of APLA contemplate that at any stage during that attack, that the Police may have been called onto the scene and that a shootout with the Police may ensue, with possibly injury to or death on the side of the Police?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir.  We never thought that Police may be called and we then will be involved in a shootout with them because our intentions were to hit the bus with the rifle grenade without stopping the car, and then run away with our car.

MR PRIOR: Was it never discussed as a possibility that a shootout with Police could ensue at any time, for example if the Police were driving in the opposite direction by chance, I just need clarity on that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I would be a liar sir, it never occurred to one of us.  As I said, our intention was to hit with a rifle grenade and simply disappear thereafter.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us how dangerous the Bahai Church mission was because when you were fleeing, you might run into a Police roadblock or be chased by the Police, haven't you?  Do you remember telling us all that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I remember that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely you must have contemplated that with every mission you performed?  You were going to shoot up a bus just outside a large factory, surely you must have anticipated that they would raise the alarm immediately and that there was a danger of confrontation with the Police?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, we never thought that fashion, that we would be confronting or in a confrontation with the Police, then being called and asked, forced to fight with them, because the place we went to attack, was very close to Mdantsane and we also never thought that when we got there, we shall be involved in a fight.
	Except that we thought that when we get there, without the car stopping, we would shoot at the bus and then the car would proceed on and even if the Police came, they would simply get after the fact and we would then have left the area unlike when we went to Bahai, because even the road we were supposed to use from Bahai, was very long between East London and Butterworth.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, sorry, one of the widows of one of the deceased at Bahai, requested to ask some questions.  It is not the same lady that appeared yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Does she want to ask questions before Mr Ntonga cross-examines the witness, the applicant?

MR PRIOR: We are in your hands Mr Chairman, as to the order.

CHAIRPERSON: I think rather let Mr Ntonga put his, so she has a more picture of what the whole version is.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR NTONGA: Mr Mbambo, after you have trained at Bizana, were you attached to any unit of APLA?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir.

MR NTONGA: Okay.  At Bizana, under who were you, who was your Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It was (indistinct) Africa, the late Ncapayi.

MR NTONGA: Was he a Base Commander or what rank did he hold?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, his rank was equal to (indistinct) Africa, Jimmy Jones.

MR NTONGA: What is Jimmy Jones' rank?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Jimmy Jones was a member of the High Command of  APLA.

MR NTONGA: Yes, and under him, will there not be a Regional Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Who?

MR NTONGA: The High Command?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Which High Commander?

MR NTONGA: I am talking about any High Commander, under that High Commander will there be on Regional Commander in the structure of APLA?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The Regional Commander, there is a Regional Commander in the structure of APLA.

MR NTONGA: Under a Regional Commander there will be an Operational Commander, isn't that so?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes sir, that is so.

MR NTONGA: And under him, there will be a Base Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And under him, there will be a Unit Commander?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR NTONGA: Then you have the foot soldiers on the ground?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so sir.

MR NTONGA: Are you saying to this Commission that you jumped all four ranks to report direct to the High Command in these missions?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, there is no rank we did not report to, going straight to the High Command, because what happened, the ranks you just counter, there in Transkei we were not operating as you just pointed them out.
	Indeed we did have a Base Commander, we did have a Unit Commander, but there was no Regional Commander sir.
	Instead there was  Unit Commander, Base Commander and then Jimmy Jones.

MR NTONGA: Okay.  Let's come to the question how you went to Transkei the first time you went to Butterworth.  Can you give me some clarity, did you ask these people to take you with or you were told that you were asked by the Commander to go to Transkei?  That is when you went for the first time and went to the Bahai attack, and to the Transkei.
	Did you ask them to go with you or did they tell you they had orders to bring you back to the Transkei?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As I have already said sir before, that I was told by them that the Commander, Jimmy Jones, had said that they must bring me back.  It is not I who said I wanted to go with them.

MR NTONGA: Okay.  Can I refer you to your confession.

ADV GCABASHE: Before you do that Mr Ntonga, can I just get a bit of clarity on this point, you have said to us that with the Fort Knox mission, you knew nothing about it, the guys simply stayed at your house.  They told you nothing about it, why then would Jimmy Jones say you had to be brought back, if he knew in terms of policy, you knew nothing about that attack, there was nothing you could spy on.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I will not know Ma'am as to what the reason was, but what I know is that it was said I was required in Transkei.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Just before you do Mr Ntonga.  You heard the evidence yesterday of your co-applicant which was that they didn't trust you and that was why they had to take you with them.
	What do you say about that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I heard Mr Ncamazana saying Commander thought that I may be a danger to them, or they thought that I may be a danger to them.  He did not say certainly I was going to be dangerous to them.