Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

DAPHNEY RAMOKGOPA: What this lady is saying, when they left South Africa they did not leave at the same time.  They were in Botswana.  He left in 1976 saying he was going to the
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aunt in the farm, but we had already heard that there is some restless and there is some violence, that there were people that were leaving.  I asked him what do you think what happened?  He said, no, I am going to my uncle, to my aunt.  That was the last time I spoke to him when we were talking about this.  
 When he was in Soekmekaar he left Soekmekaar for Lesotho.  In Lesotho, I was expectant at the time.  My brother use to visit him in Lesotho, I never did.  As he use to go and visit him coming back telling us that, no, he is still fine.  He was a soldier.  He wrote a letter in 1977.  He was asking how is mum and how is everything at home.  In that letter, that time I was actually married at that time.  Seeing that my parents were so old I could not talk to them, I could only talk to my other brother.
 In 1983 I remember I had already delivered at that time.  The police came from Protea to ask us where was Skhriwi and we said, no, we do not know and they found my dad and my brother.  They took my father to the police station in Protea.  The following day they came again to pick my father up.  That is when they sent a child to go fetch me to ask me.  So they kept asking me what happened and when my father says when he got to Protea they actually showed him some pictures and they asked him to point his son.  My dad said my child does not appear on those pictures.  What he knows is that Skhriwi was killed.  He told them that what I know that he was killed by four Boers.
 At that time we did not know what happened.  We were just there at home.  Nothing happened.  My mum was ill at the time, sick.  She got worse and this aggravated.
 In 1991, early 1991, I do not quite remember whether it
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was March.  My mum got the papers and she was already from Botswana.  Skhriwi and Bushy had some friends in Botswana.  We actually became relatives with the lady seated next to me because of all this.  My mum got those documents and looked for the address and the address was written 43 25B.  My home number is 43 52B.  She sent those people to look for her, but they never got that address, but they looked around until, finally, they found the house.  They found my brother and my father.  When they arrived that is just when they asked is this Ramokgopa family.  We said, yes.  They told us that they were sent from Rockville.  We asked who is this lady.  Is this Bushy's mum?  They said, yes.  They showed my mum those documents.  There were pictures, photos along with the documents.  They asked we will like for you to point your son here.  My brother was called.  They are also asking that question, point your son here on the pictures.  He said, no, he does not appear on these pictures.  They asked, can you not locate, can you not see him?  He said, okay, yes, I can see him.  He pointed at him.  My mum said, no, that is not the one.  
 From there when they called me, they sent a car to go fetch me.  When I got back home I found my mum so sick, affected by this.  They showed me those photos.  They asked me show your mother that this is your brother.  I looked and said, yes, this is my brother and they said, then go and show it to your mother in the bedroom.  I said to my mother in the bedroom, this is truly my brother.  My mum said, no, and she got worse.  The situation aggravated her sickness.

INTERPRETER: The speaker cannot go on.

MS SEROKE: Daphne, please relax, drink some water and take your time.  We know that this is painful.  It is not easy to SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
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bear.  Take your time.  Do you feel you want to carry on now?

DAPHNEY RAMOKGOPA: Yes.

MS SEROKE: Now I would like to ask you about those pictures, photos.  Were those pictures taken when they were still alive, happily, or were they taken when they were dead?

DAPHNEY RAMOKGOPA: Those photos showed that they were still alive.  Now, I do not know why you do not have those documents because we supplied those documents to be given to you.

MS SEROKE: Well, I think the Chairlady has those documents.

DAPHNEY RAMOKGOPA: When I saw him on those pictures, I saw he had gained weight on the pictures.  Even the clothes he was wearing I do not know them.  My mum passed away in July, but before her death she called my brother.  My brother is Norman.  He is actually around.  She said to him, I will like for you to look for this child, but the way I see I do not think he is still alive.  My brother said, why are you saying that?  She said, no, I do not think he is still alive.  I left home.  Well, I left my house and I went to live home with my mother for the whole month.  I was working at the time.  Each time I come from home I will find my mum sleeping and I will try talk to her and I use to ask my mum, why do you think Skhriwi has died?  You know I use to ask her those questions when I see she was in a happy mood.  She use to say to me, Daphne, I do not think this child is still alive.  I think he is dead now.  Well, I was with my mum until I left for my house again.  It was only two weeks and after two weeks and my mum got worse.  She called me, she told my brother to call me to come here.  My brother said,
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 no, I cannot call her.  She said, no, I want to talk to her where she died.

MS SEROKE: I will hand over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much ladies.  Now I will like other Commissioners to prepare their questions and ask you questions.  Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mama and Mrs Ramokgopa, I do not know if you actually read those articles.  We did get them and they are on our files.  We saw the article in the Dawn Magazine which explained that both your sons were Commanders in MK and that they had been shot in a shootout with the police after an operation.  They were actually named in the heros column of the Dawn Magazine.  I am not sure if that was quite clear to you.

DAPHNEY RAMOKGOPA: It is true and we know that you have the article.

YASMINE SOOKA: I think that we will of course be looking at following-up on the article, but you must both be very proud of the fact that both your sons were in the peoples army.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Russell Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: In your statement you say that you were not informed of the death of your son by the ANC, but were you informed by the South African Police Force or the South African Defence Force about the death of your son?  In your statement you say that you were not informed about the death of your son by the ANC.  What I asked was whether you were informed, whether the South African Police of the South African Defence Force, did they ever inform you of the death of your son or the circumstances of his death?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: There is no one who actually informed us
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about his death and I do not know exactly that as they were hot where, people who shot them were they soldiers or were they police.  I do not know.

RUSSELL ALLY: According to some of the information that we got it seems as if it was the Defence Force, but in your statement also you say that after 1976, before your son actually went into exile that he was a known activist as far as the police were concerned.  That there was regular harassment and that, did that harassment actually involve visiting your house to look for your son?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: No.  There are no police who came to harass me.  It was his teacher and himself and they use to come and his colleagues come home and they will actually come here as Regina mourned in the Church and they said to me they were just coming here for service.