Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

DR W M TSOTSI: And as you said, you did not identify any of them.  You just asked the people inside the car to come out and then you took them out for the slaughtering.  Is that what happened?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman.
	I specifically said that we identified all four of them.

DR W M TSOTSI: How did you identify them in the dark, considering that the other three, you were not very well acquainted with them?

MR J VAN ZYL: I never said I was not acquainted with them, Mr Chairman, we...

DR W M TSOTSI: The other three.  Goniwe you knew very well.  But the other three, you had seen them in photographs, but you had never actually - had you actually spoken to them before?  Any of the others, apart from Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.  But we knew them, because we had given them so much attention, Mr Chairman.

DR W M TSOTSI: Yes, but you use the plural.  I'm talking about you, yourself.  Did you yourself know these others personally or not. Were you able to identify them in the dark and make sure that they were the correct people you wanted?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, we would have used torches, we probably used torches, I cannot specifically remember, but we identified them before they even got into our car.

DR W M TSOTSI: All right, and then you say later in your evidence that when Sparrow Mkhonto was seated, as I say, behind you and you were driving along, just the two of you, you say that both his hands were handcuffed at the back.  And then you say that when he caught you, his hands were really in front now, he actually transferred his hands from the back to the front?  Did you subsequently test the feasibility of this athletic exercise?  How was it possible?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I think any policeman could tell you that it happened lots of times in their careers that detainees did this.  Some people find it easier than others to slip their legs through their arms, I did not test it because I had seen it before that even, many times.

DR W M TSOTSI: Couldn't you have heard him doing this, if you were driving along slowly as you say.  Couldn't you have heard or noticed that he was doing something behind you?

MR J VAN ZYL: I have  been asked that - I did not, Mr Chairman.

ADV D POTGIETER: Will you take long?
ADV S SIGODI  Sorry, I just have a question.
	Did I hear you correctly when you said that you did not personally intend to stab the people?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, you did not hear me correctly Mr Chairman.
	I said that it was my intention, I said it today about two times already that it was my intention initially to carry this operation out myself, just with the help of the others on a standby basis.  That it was my intention to kill the people by stabbing them myself.  It was my intention.
	Is that what you are asking, Ma'am?

UNKNOWN: Honourable Chairperson, if I may - sorry - if I may just with your indulgence before Mr van der Merwe proceeds.  There is just one point that I forgot to put to the applicant, if you would grant me the opportunity...

CHAIRPERSON: I'll come back to you.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr van Zyl, the Security Police set up in the Eastern Cape - this was a division of which the headquarters were situated in Port Elizabeth.  Is this correct.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And Cradock resorted beneath you?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: As I understand the testimony, you received orders from your Divisional Head to carry out an operation in which a Mr Goniwe would be murdered.  If you could just explain to the Honourable Committee how you went about this, when you were given such orders.
	How did you - did you call in any other members from other branches or sub-branches or did you try to work as much alone as possible?

MR J VAN ZYL: In those in which I participated, it was always a small group in Port Elizabeth which was restricted to the Port Elizabeth branch.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: The other incident, I assume, is therefore the Pebco 3 incident, and they were killed in Cradock's immediate jurisdiction.  Am I correct?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Did you then use any Cradock people?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: When you were given the order to execute this operation, was this operation entrusted to you?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: And you made the decision as to which steps would be taken and who you would use in this operation?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.  In terms of my seniors and execution of the operation.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Testimony has already been given that Colonel Winter was your senior at that stage.
	Did you in any way notify or involve him in the matter?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, except that if Mr du Plessis had spoken to him about the collection of information or the - I was not in any position to issue any such commands to Winter.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Accept for the moment that there was a request that information be sharpened around the movement of Mr Goniwe.  Was the objective of this communicated or transferred to Cradock when this happened?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: The normal channels of communication from Cradock, was this telephonically or postal?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes whatever occurred telephonically was always followed up with the regular reports which were sometimes delivered by vehicle.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: In your testimony you have stated that after a suggestion was made that Colonel Winter might have been involved in the incident that he phoned the day after the murders to say that the deceased had not returned to Cradock and that you had said to him, I'll make a note of it.

MR J VAN ZYL: That is true.  He phoned me because he was concerned because he had orders to sharpen the collection of information and because his subjects were not there and that he did not know where they were.  He wanted to know whether or not they were in Port Elizabeth and they had not returned yet, and that is why he phoned me.   I think he wanted to bring it to our attention that we should know that they are within our jurisdiction.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: It was suggested that the only manner in which your divisional branch in PE could have been aware of the fact that Mr Goniwe and the three others would have come to you was by means of a telephonic conversation between you and Mr Winter.
	Was there any other manner in which you would have become aware of the presence of these four persons in your area?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I never said that that was the only manner.  We were not completely dependant upon Cradock to keep us abreast of the movements of people.  We had our own technical coverage and the various branches would confirm with one another in terms of resources and coverage.
	There was nothing stopping me from allowing my informants to work as far afield as Cape Town if need be.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: A telephonic conversation between Mr Schwartz and Mr Goniwe indicated that he would no longer be going to Port Elizabeth on the day that he had said, but rather the Thursday.  Were any devices linked to Mr Schwartz's telephones in Port Elizabeth?

MR J VAN ZYL: There was in fact a listening device on Mr Schwartz's telephone at home in Port Elizabeth.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: You said to Mr Winter that you would make a note of that you didn't want to inform him of the events.

MR J VAN ZYL: At no stage did I inform him of the events.

MR F VAN DER MERWE: Would it be correct to accept that the reason would be that he was so far removed from this operation that he wouldn't have to know anything about it.

MR J VAN ZYL: Well, it was a "need to know" basis.
	Anybody who didn't have anything to do with it, wasn't supposed to be informed about it.