Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

ADV DE JAGER: How many bullets did you take with you that morning?

UNKNOWN: I had one full magazine and the other one.  In other words I had two, 16-16, 32 all in all.

ADV DE JAGER: How many were left after the shooting?

UNKNOWN: Only six left.

ADV DE JAGER: There is one other question I want to ask you.  You remember the evidence of Peter.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do, but not everything.

ADV DE JAGER: Peter said at the trial that he, Peter, "dragged Thandazani under the bed, but in the process Thandazani was shot in the arm, whereupon the accused (that
2A - 13.2	is/...
ADV DE JAGER	216	M H KHANYILE
is you) aimed the firearm at him and pulled the trigger a number of times, but the firearm would not go off.  The accused said to him that he was lucky that he had been saved.  Thereupon the accused left".  Do you agree with this version, or don't you agree with this version?

UNKNOWN: I don't agree.   I would like to put it this way.  I was outside.  I never got inside the house.  I didn't realise that I shot Thandazani.   I even left there without knowing.  I only heard about it in court.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the evidence of Peter, that you attempted to shoot him and the gun didn't go off?

UNKNOWN: Peter saw the gun in my hand and then he thought that I was going to shoot him.  The only thing I asked Peter was that where were those guys who were attacking us from inside the house.  Maybe he thought I wanted to shoot him.

JUDGE WILSON: I put to you earlier that Peter had been shot.  I think I was mistaken in that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Khanyile, when you spoke to Peter and Thandazani, did you notice anything on Thandazani that might have indicated to you that he was injured by the time that you spoke to them?

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't notice anything.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You didn't see any injuries on Thandazani?

UNKNOWN: I didn't notice any injury.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you not observe the two small boys at that stage?

UNKNOWN: I didn't observe them that well because I had a problem.  My concentration was on those guys who were inside the house.  All I asked them was where were those guys and they didn't answer me back and I realised that they
2A - 13.2	were/...
JUDGE WILSON	217	M H KHANYILE
were in a state of shock.

JUDGE WILSON: Will you please tell me, the house in which these three men fled, what sort of house was it?

UNKNOWN: It was a four-roomed house.

JUDGE WILSON: What was it built of?

UNKNOWN: Corrugated iron.  Even though I don't have a clear knowledge as to it, it was built on a brick but it was a corrugated house.   It was plastered and it had corrugated iron on top.

JUDGE WILSON: How big was the window?

UNKNOWN: It was big window.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: It was as big as I am indicating.

JUDGE WILSON: How high?

UNKNOWN: From the ground up to where I am indicating.

JUDGE WILSON: Could you see through the window?

UNKNOWN: No, I could not see through the window because there were curtains.  It was quite early in the morning.  The curtains were still drawn.

JUDGE WILSON: So were you just shooting blindly through the window?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true, because I was returning fire.  I saw from which direction the fire came and I returned fire also, but I had absolutely no knowledge as to who was inside.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you fire in a specific direction?

UNKNOWN: I was shooting at different directions because I didn't know which part of the house they were occupying.  I would estimate that if the firing came from a certain direction then I would point my firearm towards that direction.
2A - 13.2

JUDGE WILSON: /...
JUDGE WILSON	218	M H KHANYILE

JUDGE WILSON: ... did you think that they might not been in the same room.  They might have been in any one of the four rooms in the house.

UNKNOWN: At the time I had no knowledge as to what room they were occupying, so I was just shooting at random at times and at times I would wait for the fire to see as to which direction it was coming from.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you shooting into different rooms or were you merely shooting through the same window the whole time?

UNKNOWN: I was standing at the window next to the door.

JUDGE WILSON: How far from the window was the door?

UNKNOWN: As I am indicating.  The window is where I am sitting and the door would be at the table that I am indicating.

JUDGE WILSON: Two and a half metres.  And yet in this indiscriminate shooting you say where you were shooting through curtains, not knowing what you were aiming at, you managed to hit the one person six times, the other two people three times each and a little boy who was being pulled under a bed, you shot him through the arm.  Is that so?

UNKNOWN: As I have already explained, that I didn't know in which room they were.  Whether they were maybe below the window or next to the door, they could have been somewhere there, maybe that's how I got them.  Because I could not see anybody inside the house at that stage.

JUDGE WILSON: I think I must indicate to you Mr Khanyile, that was far as I am concerned I do not think you are being honest or frank with the Court in this regard and that you are accordingly not complying with the provisions of the
2A - 13.2	Act/...
JUDGE WILSON	219	M H KHANYILE
Act with regard to amnesty applications.  That you have not made a full disclosure of what happened that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you resume re-examining this witness, you will have gathered by now the problem that is confronting us as far as your client is concerned.  There seem to be some serious improbabilities in his evidence, from which one may draw the conclusion that he has not made a full and frank disclosure.
	Bearing that in mind you have the opportunity of clearing up what you might consider to be important matters when you re-examine him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Before you re-examine, can I just also deal with another problem which you may wish to address when you re-examine.  Mr Khanyile, your evidence before us is that when you and your friends followed the three people, you were the only one who was armed amongst your friends.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true.  I was the only one who was armed.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And the three people who you are pursuing were armed.

UNKNOWN: I saw Skwayi having a firearm as well as Mqupeni Zulu.  I did not see the third one whether he was armed or not, but I did not see anything.  I think I did not see anything.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... you were asked what you meant by saying "we were firing guns ...". (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 2B) ...

UNKNOWN: The one I was actually aiming at was Skwayi Zulu and he was also returning fire and Mqupeni did have a firearm.  He was also shooting, but apparently he was not shooting at me.  I think he was attacking the other two members with which I was travelling.
2B - 13.2

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /...
JUDGE NGOEPE	220	M H KHANYILE

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Then you were asked what you meant by saying "we were firing guns", you said you are referring to yourself and all the three other people that you were pursuing.

UNKNOWN: I was firing and they were also firing, but I wanted Skwayi Nqobo.  Mqupeni Zulu was shooting the other two males.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If you say the third person was also firing, surely you mean he was armed?

UNKNOWN: The third one was not shooting at us.  It was the only the other two, Mqupeni Zulu and Skwayi Nqobo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why did you put him amongst the "we" when you were asked earlier on?  Why didn't you say that it was just Skwayi and Mqupeni only and yourself who were exchanging fire?

UNKNOWN: I merely was referring to them, but I did not specifically say that all the three were shooting at me.

JUDGE WILSON: You did say three of them.

UNKNOWN: They were not all shooting, only the two, because I did not see the third one's gun.  Only the two were shooting back, but I just counted them as three because they were together.