Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-12

MR RICHARD: Now after the chaos, did anyone try and bring calm to the situation and try and argue for Poppy?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No.

MR RICHARD: Now do you know the names of the other people who were chosen to go with you and kill her?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I do know them.

MR RICHARD: What are their names?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That's David Dingwane.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Mboya Skobela.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: And Mampote Sogagela.

MR RICHARD: Now how many of these people were her friends besides you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No there was none.

MR RICHARD: Now you say in your application at page 2 paragraph 10(a) that the killing had a political objective.  What do you believe was political in the killing of Poppy Serani?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: At paragraph 10(a) of your application for amnesty you state there was a political objective which you intended to achieve by killing Poppy and in the application form you answer by saying and I quote
"Since the death of this witch then there was a deterioration of witchcraft in the place and the people started to live a modern life that leads to democratic South Africa."
Did you understand that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I do.

MR RICHARD: To put it slightly differently, how do you think the killing of Poppy Serani would achieve that purpose?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Here I was trying to explain that the youths were complaining about the deaths that were taking place in the community.  Most of them were panicking and after the death of Poppy they became free because they were aware that most of the people who died before were those who were supposed to be their leaders.  After Poppy's death the youth became free because even those who were also intending to be witches refrained from witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: Now ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just for clarity.  You say even those who were intending to be witches refrained from witchcraft.  Who are those people?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: You did not understand me.  I am saying that even those were still going to do that, that is to kill the youths, refrained from that because the deaths in the community stopped.

MR RICHARD: Now let's put it this way.  As the youth, why did you see witches as your enemy?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: They were disturbing us because there was no development amongst ourselves and we did not have leaders because if for example there was somebody who was intelligent even at school he would be the person who would be targeted.

MR RICHARD: How would somebody who was intelligent at school and a potential leader be targeted?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: May you please repeat?

MR RICHARD: You say that potential leaders at school, who were good, would be targeted.  In what manner would the witches target them?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: The witches did not like anything that was done by the youths in the village.

MR RICHARD: Now to carry on, at paragraph 10(b) at page 2 of your application, you are asked
"What is your justification for regarding such acts i.e. the killing of Poppy Serani, as an act associated with a political objective?"
Your answer went:
"As we were the comrades of that time, we tried by all means to democratise our Black people who were still living in the 'barrack'" is the best way I can read it "people where Black people were freed from mental slavery."
And then you go on:
"The death of this woman taught us the real impossibility of witchcraft.  People must never suffer for one who is killing the nation."
Did you understand the translation?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I do understand some parts but may you please repeat again?

MR RICHARD: I'll start at the beginning
"As we were the comrades of that time, we tried by all means to democratise our Black people who were still living in the - Black people were freed from mental slavery.  The death of this woman taught us the real impossibility of witchcraft.  People must never suffer for one who is killing the nation."

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I do understand.

MR RICHARD: Who do you think was killing the nation?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I would explain it this way.  We as the youth wanted to teach the community about democracy and amongst ourselves as youths, some of us were afraid that as we go around spreading the word of democracy those who would be viewed as intelligent would be killed because that was what was happening.  So some of the youths who were chosen to do that job of spreading democracy in the community would die mysteriously.  That is why we decided to tell the community and the chief about our problem concerning witchcraft and our suspicion.  After Poppy's death we realised that we were doing our job well of teaching people about democracy.  That is what I was trying to explain here in this paragraph.

MR RICHARD: Now after you had been to Komatipoort and seen the sangoma is it not correct that you believed that Poppy, through her witchcraft, was killing your potential leaders and obstructing your efforts to democratise your society?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct.  We really believed that she was the person who was killing our future leaders.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I have difficulty in understanding that.  I understand your evidence to be that according to this witch-doctor, the deceased was responsible for the death of her husband and her brother-in-law, not the youth?  Now did I misunderstand you?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what did that have to do with the future leaders?  How does that link the deceased to the killing of your future leaders and interfering with democracy?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I say those people who were described by the doctor including the deceased and these other three witches agreed and they were also involved in the bus accident that I talked about before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, I've heard that evidence.  I'm somewhere else now.  I'm trying to understand the answer that you've just given to Mr Richard.  I want to try and understand how the deceased was responsible for interfering with democracy and killing of your potential future leaders if all that she's alleged to have done was to have killed her husband and her husband's elder brother?  There was no suggestion that she had anything to do with the death of the youths or anybody else for that matter?  Now can you explain that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I do understand what you say.  I mean these two people who were killed by her, they were also our supporters.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I thought that you said to us that you're not sure, you think that the husband, the late husband of the deceased, was supporting the same organisation that you did?  That seemed to have been - unless I misunderstood your evidence, that seems to have been the best you could say about the political affiliation of the deceased's husband?  You never even told us anything about the political affiliation of the elder brother of the deceased's husband?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Well I do not know which organisation the brother of the deceased's husband supported.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I understood you correctly, you're not even sure about the husband of the deceased either, you think that he supported the same organisation as you did?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is what I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes Mr Richard, do you want to carry on?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.
	Now amongst your comrades in the youth league at the time, did you discuss witchcraft in general, not in relation to the deaths of the people in the bus accident and Poppy's husband and his brother, but just in general?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct.