Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

MR NDOU: I see.  And what was your brief in the Commission?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you repeat that definition slowly please?

MR NDOU: Okay.  Can you repeat so that the Honourable Committee can understand the definition as you put it.

UNKNOWN: A witch is supposed to be a person who is endowed with powers of causing illness or ill luck or death to the person that he wants to destroy.

MR NDOU: And you say it took you two years to go about trying to come up with what is contained in the report?

UNKNOWN: Correct, Sir.

MR NDOU: And you say what is contained in your report is the end result of your troubles over a two year period?

UNKNOWN: Correct, Sir.

MR NDOU: Now if one goes through the report, there are certain things inside, certain submissions that are made here.  How do you link the position as it prevailed in the traditional sense witchcraft with what transpired from the period after Pres Mphephu's death in 1988 to the time when former Pres Nelson Mandela was released?  Are you able to put up a link thereto?

UNKNOWN: Well, I'll try.  Traditionally people who were accused of practising witchcraft were not burned as it happened, nor were they killed.  This happened only in extremely cases, otherwise people who were accused of having been responsible for killing others through witchcraft, were tried in a tribal court and then there would be certain judgments, eg the person accused of having caused witchcraft would be expelled from one trouble area to another area, he was not killed, but during the late 1980's when there was too much violence in the Reef, violence which was definitely politically motivated in the Reef, this side all of a sudden something which the people never had done before ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Was banishment from an area the worst type of punishment in those days?

UNKNOWN: I'd say banishment was one of the worst but at least in some cases if a member, or perhaps if the person  killed was a member of the royal family, depending on the feelings of that particular chief, that person could be killed and how was he killed?  In certain places they would tie his legs, throw him into a river pool.  In other cases they will thrown him into a ravine, but the issue of burning of human beings as it happened in the 1990's was quite unique, we never had it before.

MR NDOU: Now what would attribute to this sudden change of pattern?

UNKNOWN: I'll give the reason as follows:  In urban areas people who were not toeing perhaps the current thinking, people were said to be spies, in certain areas found themselves being labelled enemies of progressive movements and such people were unfortunately banned, but the Northern Province being one of the least politically aware areas, would not just join in that burning of people.  Those who were behind burning of people in urban areas, had to seek what is it that could make the countryside ungovernable and they found this area was very, very ripe.  Why?  This area ...(intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Professor, could you go a bit slower?  We want to take notes of what you're saying.

UNKNOWN: Sorry.  Okay, I'll try my best.  In urban areas people who were regarded as enemies of liberation movements, some of them were necklaced.  We didn't have that type of a thing in this particular place, but the people who were behind necklacing of people in urban areas, wanted this area to become ungovernable.  What did they choose?  What was it that could make the people here also ungovernable?  They chose witchcraft.  Now this doesn't mean that in urban areas people, I mean, there are no people who don't believe in witchcraft.  There are, but it is a difference of degrees, but in the countryside, especially in Venda, when the traditional leaders here opted for the so-called independence, they unfortunately did not abolish some of the elements in the South African Anti Witchcraft Act eg in that Act believing in Witchcraft, if I can remember, is not approved.  Pointing as somebody as a witch was something very, very serious.   So the chiefs this side who traditionally believed in witchcraft, accepted that Act but by so accepting it, it was virtually like taking a person and putting a spear on his back, because those who wanted to see this area ungovernable presented chiefs as protectors of witches.   So the chiefs were then presented as protectors of witches.  In that case there was no law and order in this area.

MR NDOU: Now Professor as I understand you, you're saying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to check something.  You say that the chiefs, some of the chiefs at the time believed in witchcraft and they accepted the Act.  Are you talking about the Anti Witchcraft Act?

UNKNOWN: Correct.  In fact I think to say some of the chiefs, it may be true, but the country by accepting independence legally, it means that they have accepted that Act, so nobody in this area could no longer be tried for witchcraft and therefore liberation movements presented chiefs as people who were protecting witches.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that allies of liberation movements that found themselves in the areas where witchcraft was predominant, regarded these leaders as the protectors of witchcraft?

UNKNOWN: Yes, you could say so, but not all.

CHAIRPERSON: But I don't think that was the policy of the liberation movements as such, but rather their allies or supporters.

UNKNOWN: I will explain that.  The people who killed these people didn't say they were ANC or PAC but when killing people they sang ANC songs Viva and so on.

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand that.

MR NDOU: And Professor you say the problem was exacerbated further by the fact that in terms of the Suppression of Witchcraft Act, chiefs were no longer in authority to decide on witchcraft matters, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MR NDOU: And as a result of that, when chiefs could no longer participate in these matters, the people felt that they were the ones who were in fact protecting people they alleged to be practising witchcraft, is that right?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

MR NDOU: Now, if you go back say to around 1979 when Venda obtained its so-called independence, what would you say the atmosphere was like when people like Mphephu and his people were ruling this small area?  Did any serious problems arise at that stage?

UNKNOWN: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let us concentrate on the year or the period maybe 1991 to 1994.

MR NDOU: Maybe we'll just start at 1998 because that's where it starts.

CHAIRPERSON: 1998?

MR NDOU: 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Well maybe then.

MR NDOU: Yes.  Now Professor, you will remember that in 1988 there were three incidents.  Firstly there was an incident of teacher Mabina of Tshakhuma who was found killed and do you also remember the incident of the mysterious death of Mwitwa Victor Mutewana, also of Tshakhuma and thirdly you will remember about the gruesome murder of that little girl Sharon Mashige.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MR NDOU: M - A - S - H - I - G - E

CHAIRPERSON: All of these deceased were from?

MR NDOU: Okay, the first two were from a place called Tshakhuma and the last one, the girl, she was from a place called Tshivhulana.
	Now when you take these cases together, you'll remember that Sharon Mashige's case was somewhere in April 1988, I think it was a day before Pres Mphephu died and the teacher's case in August and Matewana's case in September, what sort of wind would you say happened during that period in the whole area of Venda?

UNKNOWN: Well, strictly speaking the three cases that you have mentioned actually don't fall under witchcraft but fall under ritual murder or muti murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely if you talk about muti murder it falls under the broad definition of witchcraft?

UNKNOWN: That is so, it interlinks.  That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There is some relation.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR NDOU: You may proceed Prof.