Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR WILLS: And what, one bucket full of water, two, three?  Would you be in a position to estimate?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I can't estimate.

CHAIRPERSON: The floor, was it carpeted or was it a cement floor or wooden floor?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was a cement floor Mr Chair.

MR WILLS: There wasn't a blanket pulled over her?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, there was no blanket there.

MR WILLS: You see my understanding that respect is usually shown to the dead when something is pulled over her face.  That wasn't done in this case?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there was no blanket in that room, so that wasn't done.

MR WILLS: Was there anything apparent in the position of her body that led you to understand that anything respectful had been done to the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't quite understand Sir.

MR WILLS: Were her eyes closed?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she have the blindfold on at that stage?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, that's why I don't know what condition her eyes were.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you describe, sorry Mr Wills, the blindfold?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was not a bag, Mr Chairman, it was a length of material.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Did you smell urine?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I did, Sir.

MR WILLS: Can you be certain that there was no blood?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: There was no blood, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Were there any welt marks on the body, the neck, the fact, the legs, that you noticed?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't notice them, I didn't go that close to the body.

MR WILLS: Did you touch the body at all at that stage?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I only touched the body when I lifted it with Mr du Preez to place in the boot of the vehicle.

MR WILLS: How long would you estimate you were in the room for this first occasion, on this first occasion?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, a minute.

MR WILLS: And then it was some half an hour later that you - sorry.  How much later was it that you came with Mr du Preez to remove the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: This, Mr Chairman, was a considerable period of time later than that.

MR WILLS: Can you remember how, what your participation was in regard to the lifting of the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I picked up Ms Khubeka under her arms.

MR WILLS: And then you can recall obviously du Preez must have picked up her legs?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Continue.  What did you do then?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Then Mr du Preez was, he left the door first.  He went backwards out the door first.  I followed with him.  The vehicle - he had parked the vehicle close by to the door.  We placed her on the floor at the back of the vehicle where I took a better grip and then we both lifted her up and we placed her into the boot of the Nissan vehicle.

MR WILLS: You said earlier that you'd gone in to see what you'd need for your operation and you mentioned whether you'd need a plastic bag, or something like that.  Didn't it strike you as being necessary to get a plastic bag?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Do you know - I assume then once you put her in the boot, did you close the door of the room, or did you re-enter the room or did you just drive off?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't re-enter that room once she was in the vehicle.

MR WILLS: Not to this day?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I did afterwards, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes and by the time you went afterwards, when was that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The following day Sir.

MR WILLS: And was the room still wet?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Sir.

MR WILLS: Had it been cleaned?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you know who did that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I don't know who did that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, if I could just ask a question.  When you were taking the body to the vehicle, had rigor mortis set in at all?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now, you, surely your colleague du Preez would have asked you, since he wasn't there, what happened exactly.  Because you were sort of involved in the sense that you were in and out of there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, he never asked me what had happened.  He - I assumed, I had been informed that she'd had a heart attack.

MR WILLS: Yes and what discussion did you have?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: At what stage, Mr Chairman?

MR WILLS: In the car, sorry.  Tell me what you said in the car from when you had put the body in the boot of the car and you'd started the car, you'd driven some, what would you estimate, 50 kilometres?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: From Winkelspruit to kwaMashu?  40?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Thereabouts, yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: That must have taken at least 20 minutes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Travelling 120 kilometres an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: One would hope it took a little bit longer than that, because you have to get right through Durban, don't you?  Although there are freeways.

MR WILLS: In that travelling time, what was the discussion?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I recall discussing with Mr du Preez a suitable place, which would concur with the instructions of Taylor, to be close by to the house in order to allow for the body to be found and concluded that the Bambayi area was close enough and she would be found there and placed in the police mortuary and inquiries could be made from there by the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that area quite well, Mr Wasserman, that Inanda, Bambayi?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I knew it moderately well, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: So your version is that the only discussion that took place was a discussion in relation to your orders, i.e where to dispose of the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman and the fact that Bambayi was, to us seemed a suitable place for that.

MR WILLS: Yes.  But there was no other discussion, you didn't discuss the rugby match or anything along that nature?  Other than that you were silent?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.  We weren't in a jovial mood.  There wasn't much jovial discussions made.

MR WILLS: Now, you see, referring to your statement at page ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Referring to Exhibit E?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman, Exhibit E, at your paragraph 7, which no doubt has been made together with your counsel, you say that
"Col Taylor then decided that her death must not be reported and du Preez and myself were ordered by him to dispose of the body at a place where it could be found."
There's no mention here of it being close to the home of the deceased.  Is there any reason for that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: there's no specific reason for that, Mr Chair, that to me places a supposition that close to her home also fits within there.

MR WILLS: Yes.  I also would suggest that if you took it to a police station it would probably would be found as well, not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: What's that got to do with it?

MR WILLS: Let me ask the questions.  What I'm suggesting is that there seems to me to be no reason for you to take the body to a place where it would be found quickly.  What was the reason for that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, she had died a natural death, so I'd been informed, and Col Taylor had decided that seeing it wasn't unnatural, the recovery of the body not too far from her home, would seem in order.