Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-16

MS GOBODO: Good morning Mr Maxam can you hear me?

MR MAXAM: Good morning Ms Chairperson.

MS GOBODO: What is your clan name?

MR MAXAM: Msango Kwalo.

MS GOBODO: We welcome you - we welcome you this morning as you are going to give your testimony.  A testimony that is different from the usual, a testimony of forgiveness, this is what this Commission is about.
We thank you for coming forward so that even those people that are still in the dark can see the necessity of coming forward to ask for forgiveness.  Did you grow up in Mbekweni or did you grow up elsewhere?

MR MAXAM: I was born in Mbekweni and I grew up in Mbekweni.

MS GOBODO: Did you go to school in Mbekweni?

MR MAXAM: Yes  I went to school in Mbekweni until std 8.

MS GOBODO: In 1985 and 1986 there was an organization here in the township, which one did you belong you?  I don't hear you well - could you come closer to the mic.

MR MAXAM: I was a member of MBEKO an affiliation of the UDF.

MS GOBODO: According to your statement you say you were one of the people in the leadership of the M-plan, could you elaborate what the M-plan is about so that everybody understands.

MR MAXAM: In 1985, or from early '84 until the end of it all - that is until the election and political prisoners were released.  The M-plan was about uniting people in communities.  It was also about protecting the people and about alleviating problems in the community.

MS GOBODO: So the M-plan was really there to implement the struggle and the goals of this struggle?

MR MAXAM: Then the M-plan was really the backbone of our communities as - as the white people interfered.

MS GOBODO: How did...[intervention]

MR MAXAM: And also to protect the community.

MS GOBODO: In working with implementing this M-plan please tell us what happened exactly?

MR MAXAM: The main reason why I am here today - when - during my prison term even before this sentence of 25 years, I realized that it is still very dark in our communities because there are people that I've left behind.

MS GOBODO: Are you talking about your detention or about your imprisonment.

MR MAXAM: I was sentences, I am still sentences as I speak now.

MS GOBODO: Why were you sentenced initially?

MR MAXAM: I was sentenced for the first time for ten years and two death sentences for having murdered.

MS GOBODO: So what were you target in the M-plan?

MR MAXAM: As we should remember the violence in the townships warranted us to protect ourselves and the community as people who have been shot and killed and the police will just hang around the townships.  They would just let teargas be in the townships.  The M-plan was necessary for such protection.

MS GOBODO: According to your statement here, you say that in the process of the M-plan you would go to specific houses, and the owners of those houses would as a result be detained or tortured.  Which are these people, what are the names of these people who's houses you used.

MR MAXAM: If  I were to tell the truth and count the houses that we used, I will count the whole of Mbekweni, because Mbekweni was a well mobilized community.

MS GOBODO: The specific houses that you have listed and the police focused on those house, which are these houses?

MR MAXAM: It was Mr Kathakata's house, Mr Tsotesi house and the Franch house, the Bongo family.  I wish to apologize to the owners of those houses.  Because even in their ignorance they would be taken by the police, be interrogated and other houses that were affected.  I also ask for forgiveness from the Sieberts family that was also affected.

MS GOBODO: Could you please tell the Commission about 1986, the incident in 1986 where dr Ivan Sieberts mother died.

MR MAXAM: We will remember that according to the M-plan then as we had to protect ourselves, and had to learn to attack the enemy, we needed arms.  Because even the Government was armed within the townships.  And the underground structures of the African National Congress there were opportunities for us to acquire these firearms.  It is in 1986 that I got involved in the shootings.  We had to acquire our arms, as we had to protect ourselves.

MS GOBODO: Where was this house, was it in town?

MR MAXAM: This house is not too far from Mbekweni, it is in Vlakplaas.

MS GOBODO: So what is it exactly that you want to say to the Sieberts family?

MR MAXAM: I like this question because I will also relieved, because all these years, even before I was imprisoned my mother and my sister Nosipho said I should give myself in to the police.  But I was scared because the police had warned me especially Mr Guss he said that where he gets hold of me, he will shoot me.
Because - he will not take me to prison because  I just slip through fingers.  I did not want to give him the satisfaction - this is why I ask for forgiveness from the  Sieberts family and all those people that were badly affected.  Even those who are still in prison, I ask for forgiveness from the parents of those imprisoned children.

MS GOBODO: Have you tried to get in touch with the Sieberts family whilst you were in jail?

MR MAXAM: The connection was between the ANC branch in Mbekweni, my elder brother went to the Sieberts family, to ask for forgiveness.  They appreciate the fact that I actually came out to ask for forgiveness, they have forgiven me.

MS GOBODO: Would you like to shake hands with the Sieberts family to ensure forgiveness.

MR MAXAM: I trust and believe that it is more real for one to shake hands with the forgiver rather than  hear it on the radio or television.

MS GOBODO: So your request to the Commission is to bring you and the Sieberts family together so as to ask for forgiveness in person.

MR MAXAM: I would be very glad.

MS GOBODO: Is your mother and your sister are they still alive?

MR MAXAM: Yes fortunately they still alive.

MS GOBODO: Are they still alive?

MR MAXAM: Yes they still alive.

MS GOBODO: Have you liased  with them about today?

MR MAXAM: Fortunately my mother is here today - I think my sister is at work..

MS GOBODO: I am going to ask you a last question, what is your advice to us in connection with the Mbekweni community?

MR MAXAM: So that previous sins are not committed again.

MS GOBODO: What is your advice to the Commission to ensure reconciliation between the two sides?

MR MAXAM: As I've always said, besides the fact that I am here in the Commission, I think it is important that what is in the dark, that was performed in the previous resume, should be put in the light now.
People should come forward, especially people from Mbekweni.  Mbekweni is a peaceful community, you can walk even in the middle of the night and nothing will happen to you.  Therefore it is becoming, it is only becoming for people to come forward and confess.  I wish the people of Mbekweni absolute peace, even the people I have not mentioned here.

MS GOBODO: Thank you, I want to read a document here from Ivan Sieberts with the permission of the Chairperson.
I am very happy that Maxam wants to make peace, because I too, felt the burden of the anger laying heavily on me over the years, I called his brother, Pat, last year to my office, and told him that I wanted to make peace with his family.
I have no grudge against him [that is Philemon]  I think that my mother would have wanted it this way.  She was a very kind and forgiving person.  She was shot as she went to fetch a glass of water for Maxam.  My mother would have done that act of kindness to anybody coming to her door.  She was a tipe of person who wouldn't hold a grudge.  So I am glad that Philemon is doing this for her and for me.
 I think that statement will go a long way in your heart, to relieve you, to relieve your burden.  I hope that now you are in peace.