Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just come in here to clarify one thing?  They were looking for you because you were involved in making arms.  Did you ever train as an MK soldier?  Were you an MK commander?  Did you have anything to do with MK?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I was manufacturing arms and I was distributing these arms to the ANC supporters and ANC members because I wanted them to protect themselves with those guns that I was manufacturing.

ADV BOSMAN: You see why I'm asking the question is on page 11 which is a translation of your application you say that you were an MK commander?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: When Sepo passed away I was the one who was training other ANC supporters and I was showing them how to handle firearms because Sepo had been injured and had been killed.  In 1991 I was the commander but not an MK but a commander in the area.

ADV BOSMAN: Then why did you say that you were an MK commander in the underground branch?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: It is because at the time everything we did was underground and also I was a commander.  Everything we did was underground.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you become a commander?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: You mean in my area?  Yes I was a commander in my area because I had more information on manufacturing firearms and also I was the one who was selecting people to go on war or violence.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Sibeko, you may continue.

MR SIBEKO: Now in your area, Empangisa area, were there any structures which were in place which were created by the organisation?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: What do you mean by structures?

MR SIBEKO: I take it Sir that surely you are familiar with the underground work that is the ANC cells, the letter boxes and all those things, were there any such structures in Empangisa area at mid Illovo during that time?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: It was the time when we started forming those structures but we never succeeded but we just started doing that.  We never succeeded because of the elderly them being present all the time.  We were not free at Empangisa.

MR SIBEKO: Let me see whether I follow it correctly?  So then whatever what was in place at that time in Empangisa area was purely then a political work that is maybe then organising the youth in the area at that time, it had nothing to do with maybe then the defence activities, self defence activities that were taking place in the area?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes it was like that.  The reason we formed structures as youth it is because we realised that we were being attacked and we saw that this was destabilising us and we decided that we as youth we didn't need to live in situations like that and we should create a better future for us.  We needed an organisation which was going to be there for us, an organisation which was going to fight for our rights because we couldn't stand the boers and then now the IFP.  The boers came and took our land and now these people were also attacking us and they also wanted to take our land, therefore we decided that we needed to join an organisation which was going to fight for us.

MR SIBEKO: Yes I see, Sir, so then it means in other words your affidavit in fact, page 21 and page 22, paragraph 2.13 where you said you were a normal self defence unit member was incorrect because as you say all these things were still at the formative stage, you were still in a state of preparation?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: You mean it was in the initial stage?  Yes it is so.  In our area I won't dispute that.  I was the one who was targeted as someone who had more knowledge about ANC because most of the time I wouldn't stay there, I will go to Umbumbulo and come back and also I'll tell them that we should organise ourselves in order to take care of our area but we couldn't do all these things freely and you can call us SDUs because all we did was to protect the community and to do underground work because also manufacturing guns, one cannot manufacture guns in front of anyone or letting anyone know about it because the government never wanted anyone to do that.  They were the ones who were allowed to manufacture guns, everything I did I was doing it underground.  It was my secret.

MR SIBEKO: So I put it to you Sir that in fact you were never a self defence unit member nor an MK commander but as you say yourself, if one follows your evidence, you were more often organiser than anything else in the area, is that so?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes can also say that because I was organising the youth but also you can also say that I was a commander because I was the one who was distributing firearms and also even the youth told me that I should be the one who'd be their commander because they told me that if I wasn't present people were being attacked and killed but if I was present they were not killed.  I remember one incident when the Xongo boy was killed at the Zwelenjani and the Moyeni area and sometimes when they come to our area they will attack during the night.  This was before I was arrested and when they tried to attack these areas I was the one who was against them and I defeated them and after that that's why they selected me as their commander.

MR SIBEKO: So in other words when those people were attacking you it was the continuation of a tribal faction fight, will I be correct?  Because you were able to ward off that attack?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: I will say the attackers had already acquired the land because they were one of us, the residents of Empangisa and I'm telling you, even if you can go there you'll still find those old places where they were staying.  They had already acquired the land but they were still harassing us.  They wanted us to join them and they also wanted us to join them to go to Caprivi and train as IFP armed wing.  We didn't want to do that.  They had already gained because they had already acquired the land but still they went further, they wanted us to join the IFP.  This we refused so myself and the youth we counter-fought them.

ADV SANDI: Who wanted you to join the IFP?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Thando Kwasi and his group.  Thando is the one who came and told us that they needed men to join them and to be sent to Caprivi for training, that's when I realised that they wanted us to be trained on firearms and come back and guard the chiefs and the Indunas because they had legal guns, G3s and pump guns and I refused.  That's when they realised that we were not aligned with them and that's when they suspected that we belonged to another organisation because we refused what they had requested from us.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Sibeko, just another question?
	What exactly is in dispute, the background he is giving, is that in dispute?  Is it in dispute that he was a member of the organisations he has referred to?  Is it in dispute that he had this ability to manufacture arms?

MR SIBEKO: Sir, actually what is in dispute is that at the time when of course this offence which this applicant is applying, there was a political motive and objective.  Now the part is in dispute is that in that area concerned there was no political strife whatsoever in that area and there was no presence of any political organisation in that area so basically that's up on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now can't we come to that?  Let's deal with this incident before us, let's hear what is the basis of your opposition if there is any?  Put it to this applicant, let the applicant response to that and let's move on with this application, alright?

MR SIBEKO: Sir, you further mention although you were not a commander you were reporting to Sepo Mkhize is that correct?  Now what I will like to know, after Sepo Mkhize passed away to whom were you reporting?