Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-08

MR VALLY: We'll ask the Chairperson to consider that over tea and then when we return from tea you can tell us whether Mr Mike Kennedy should ...(indistinct)   Thank you, General Knobel.

MR KNOBEL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until 11h00.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

NEIL KNOBEL: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: General Knobel, you are reminded that you are still under oath.  Dr Randera would like to make a follow-up question on what we have been dealing with.

DR RANDERA: General, I just want to go back to the minutes of those last meetings that you held where it was reported that all the information had been put on discs by Brigadier Basson.  At the time - of course the minutes reflect the points that were made by the Brigadier and you've said already that that was accepted as such.  But was there any discussion that took place at the time, I mean given the concerns that we've expressed already and some of the information you had at your disposal at the time in 1994, was there any discussion that took place within the Committee that's not reflected within the minutes about any of these concerns, or was it just accepted by everybody?

MR KNOBEL: Dr Randera, it's difficult to remember you know exactly what had been discussed, but you must understand that at these minutes the Chairman was General Meiring.  The - I'm not entirely sure, apart from Dr Steyn who obviously was also fairly well informed, the other members at these meetings, like General Pretorius for example, had just been newly appointed as Chief of the Army, he didn't really have the background of all the events.  Certainly Vice-Admiral Malherbe, late - I'm talking about January '94, are we at '95 or '94?

DR RANDERA: '94.

MR KNOBEL: '94.  Malherbe had just been appointed as the new Chief of Staff, Finance, he didn't really have the - or rather new Chief of Staff, Logistics.  He didn't have background about the project, he had just been appointed, he was really a one meeting man virtually.  Mr van Heerden who was there from the Auditor-General's office, he certainly had been, as far as I know, been involved with the project right from the beginning, and certainly was very closely involved with the Office of Serious Economic Offences investigation, and as the Auditor-General's own investigation in terms of the Joint Standing Committee on public accounts.  So within that Committee there were really two or three of us who had full background information and knew that there were investigations going on, that there was a question mark, certainly as far as financial management was concerned, and the possible financial abuses.  General Meiring was present at the meeting with the State President, Mr Coetzee in the demarche in February in - where my comments on the American report was tabled and so, so clearly he had exactly the same information that I had, I had kept him up to date.  In my affidavit I arranged for him to also be seen - or also to see myself and Mr Mike Kennedy, and that happened in '94, but also in '95, '96, later on.  We had regular meetings in which he was brought up to date with the latest developments, developments with regard to where we stood with the various investigations, where we stood with the re-appointment of Basson, what new information, if any, was available at National Intelligence level, and so on.
 But now the point that I'm trying to make is, you're asking me to discuss it.  Certainly I've been reflecting about this.  The minute that it is minuted that I now have to verify whether the discs contained all the information, I would clearly say to the Chief of the Defence Force, are you now expecting me to access all the information, to get somebody else who is an expect, who could look at the documentation and ensure that what is written on the document is now technically - the technical information is now all on the disc and is correct and the formula correct and so on.  It would be an impossible task to perform, it would be a task which would take a year.  I'm sure that that sort of thing was said.

DR RANDERA: General, the only - I suppose what I'm trying to understand is, are we asking questions that may be unfair to you?

MR KNOBEL: That's the nicest question I've ever ...(intervention)

DR RANDERA: You know, we're looking at this issue four years later, which isn't that long ago, let's be honest, issues of great concern in 1993 already, I think you've said yourself that there'd been concern expressed.  Besides the - I mean let's take away the financial aspects, but Brigadier Basson had been travelling to various countries in the employment of ...(indistinct) had raised these issues with different people, and I suppose what I'm asking is, did any of these people, whether it be General Meiring, whether it be the Financial Controller, did they ask the question, you know, are we just accepting, here's a person - quite justifiably in terms of his control and his understanding from 1981, are we not giving too much power to this one individual in terms of what's on the tapes?

MR KNOBEL: Dr Randera, you're quite right, I don't think the questions are unfair, and in your position I would ask the same type of questions, but let me say this, you're quite right - before I became Surgeon-General in 1987 I raised my first concern to General Geldenhuys with the fact that I became aware of the fact that Wouter Basson was getting instructions, not related to the project necessarily, but just in the broadest possible way, getting instructions and acting as an advisor to other Commanding Officers, to other organisations, even at the Departments without the knowledge, the apparent knowledge of the Surgeon-General.  I raised that in 1987.  When I became Surgeon-General I again put that question to them, and I've already testified to that.  So you're right, clearly it disturbed me that there was not sufficient control.
 May I, if you will allow me to say to you, it is at the present time still a major problem.  The - my successor says the same to me, he says, I don't have control over people under my command, they are being seen directly by, and he names all sorts of people.  And I say to him, now you will understand the position that I found myself in.  
 Now when we come to conclusions of this hearing, I think the one thing that stands out, is that the dilemma we had with this highly technical type project, which requires a detailed knowledge of chemistry, and as you pointed out, also of other fields like Microbiology and Toxicology, etc, that you end up totally relying on one individual who has a lot of freedom of movement and has the support not only of his own Commander or channel of command, but also of other command channels.  That is the dilemma.  I really don't know how one overcomes that, how - you know it's not a good thing to run a project through a Committee in any case, in my opinion, it's better to have a one person responsibility, but because of the complexity, both on the financial side, both from the security side and of the scientific side, this is how it was constructed and I can assure you, if you come in as a new Commanding Officer of an arm of service, and you inherit a system which is believed to work and which is believed to succeed, it's virtually impossible to change that.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Mr Chairperson, I just enquire as to when you want to get Mr Mike Kennedy's affidavit read into the record.

CHAIRPERSON: I will consider that as soon as you are through with General Knobel, then we can take his affidavit.

MR VALLY: Alright, because there may be something that General Knobel wants to refer to in Mr Kennedy's affidavit, but he can indicate to us if that's the case.