Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, I knew there were people on the parapet - I could not see them.

MR PRETORIUS: You also well knew that they were armed?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: How could you distinguish at all between fire that was fired by that ANC guards and fire fired from the crowd, they were coming from exactly the same direction?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I had to make a decision with split seconds there.

MR PRETORIUS: That does not answer the question, Mr Kruser.
How could you distinguish?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I had seconds to make a decision and the decision I came to that gunfire was coming from the crowd, that's what I saw, that's how I recollect it.

MR PRETORIUS: In which direction was that gunfire fired, what was your impression?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think I testified earlier I thought that it was in my direction.

MR PRETORIUS: Now we again know that that is incorrect as well, do you accept that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: What's incorrect?

MR PRETORIUS: That that gunfire was in your direction - as a fact it wasn't?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There's no evidence to support that as correct.

MR PRETORIUS: The ballistic evidence again, Mr Kruser, indicate that at no stage they could get any marks on any structure anywhere near you of shots that had been fired and no ANC guards were injured.  So that indicates that shots weren't fired at you?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Shots were not fired at me but there is ballistic evidence that shots were fired into Shell House.

MR PRETORIUS: The only shots that were fired into Shell House was fired at the parapet, I'm referring to by the marchers, I'm not referring to by the ANC guards themselves, were fired at the parapet on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: That still means, Mr Kruser, that you were incorrect - those shots were not fired at you or the guards which was stationed at the corner of King George and Plein Street?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Ballistic evidence proves that, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Right, now taking that out of the way now, we know now that is out of the way, how could you at all distinguish between shots fired in the vicinity of the corner of King George and De Villiers Street by marchers and shots fired by ANC guards which were also in the vicinity of King George and De Villiers Street, how could you at all do that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: When I was on the corner, I didn't have the privilege of having ballistic evidence.  I heard gunshot, I recollect hearing gunshots, I was under the impression that the gunshot hit the window next to me and that's the basis on which I made my decision among with other factors.  I didn't have the benefit of ballistic evidence which we have now.  I can concede that now we have ballistic evidence.  When I was on that corner I had to make decision in split seconds and I made that decision and that was my belief it was a correct decision to make at that time and that's my evidence here.
Ballistics proves me wrong, I accept that.

MR PRETORIUS: Still begs the question and I put it to you again that if you couldn't even distinguish between a shot fired a metre in front of you by an AK47 and shots fired from the crowd, it was impossible for you and you could never even attempt to distinguish between shots fired by the ANC guards on the corner of King George and De Villiers Streets at the marchers and shots allegedly being fired by the marchers on the guards, it's impossible for you?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I was a commander, I had to make an assessment of the situation, I had to give instructions and that's what I did.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, you still didn't answer my question.

MR LAX: Perhaps I can help you Mr Pretorius.
	Mr Kruser, could you or could you not distinguish between where the shots were coming from based on your recollection.  Not on the ballistics evidence but what you recollect at the time?  Did you or didn't you distinguish between the different shots, just give us a quick answer on that and then we can perhaps move on on this issue.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman, at that stage my recollection is the shots were emanating from the crowd, that's my recollection.

MR LAX: Are you saying you couldn't distinguish or you could distinguish?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My evidence is that I, from I recollect on that given day, the impression I got the shots were emanating from the crowd, that's my recollection.  I never had doubt that it was coming from the crowd at that stage.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I just want to place on record I'm still of the opinion that the witness doesn't answer the question - I will leave that for argument however at a later stage.  It won't serve a purpose to repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that it's not that he's not going to answer your question, you can spend another hour questioning him and he'll tell you that I am talking about what my recollections are and he'll go on saying that each time you put the question to him so I don't think it will take us very far.

MR PRETORIUS: As it pleases the court.
	Now, Mr Kruser, if I now state the following facts to you, I want you to - and I state it to you as a fact - I want you to say what objectively evidence you can give to deny this.  I state it to you as a fact that the first bullets or fire that was fired on that day was fired by the ANC guards more in particular Mr Eddie Khumalo who was on the corner of King George and Plein Street.  Do you deny it?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm willing to concede it's a possibility but I don't think there's any evidence to prove that.

MR PRETORIUS: What have you to state that that is incorrect?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: What I'm saying is my recollection is there was gunfire emanating from the crowd but I accede if Eddie Khumalo shot first and that's not my impression that's a possibility.

MR PRETORIUS: Secondly that the next shot, if we accept now for the moment your evidence, I'm just stating we accept your evidence that the crowd at some stage moved faster forward.  The second thing is that the guards at the top of the parapet of Shell House then shot at the marchers.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think I testified in the inquest that was a possibility.

MR PRETORIUS: That even if the marchers did move faster forward it was all in an attempt to avoid being shot by the ANC guards on the parapet?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think I testified in the inquest that was a possibility, I don't know the facts of that.

MR PRETORIUS: That the marchers that fired at the parapet at the ANC guards there, only fired because they were fired at by the ANC guards.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There's no evidence to prove that.

MR PRETORIUS: There was an independent witness who testified that he saw a marcher with an AK47 firing at the ANC guards on the parapet only after they fired first.  So there are evidence to that effect but what have you got to state that that is incorrect?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm not aware of that evidence.

MR PRETORIUS: But what evidence have you got to state that that is incorrect, that scenario?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: All I'm saying, I can't say we shot first, there's evidence, in the ballistic report there was lot of gunfire, lot of guns amongst the marchers itself, much more than amongst the ANC guards.

MR PRETORIUS: If what I've stated to you now is correct, the only inference one then can draw is that the ANC guards fired at the marchers without the marchers even attacking Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's not my recollection of the events.

MR PRETORIUS: Now not if it's your recollection, but I'm asking you if we accept the evidence that as I've stated to you we accept that evidence, do we also then accept that there was no attack on Shell House and the guards fired without being attacked?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There's also evidence in the inquest from an independent witness that the marchers were attacking the guards.