Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Erasmus, what the advocate is putting to you is this, here you have a person who is causing trouble and ultimately you decide that the person has to be killed, why did you not try to see whether the problem could be solved by just assaulting him first?  Perhaps an assault would have caused him to change his views and he would stop giving trouble.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Chairperson, I now understand what this is leading to.  I've already said that if we had detained Mthimkhulu again at that stage then - in order to assault him, well I've already sketched what the consequences would have been, so we didn't consider it.

MR PHOSA: Look I've given you enough opportunity to deal with that, let's pass on.  You are aware that Mr Mthimkhulu though and Mr Madaka perhaps - let's talk about one Mr Mthimkhulu, alleged that he was assaulted whilst in detention in your area under your command.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm aware of that.

MR PHOSA: In terms of physical condition, in other words whether this could happen or not, if any of the members of your police force - the security police had so decided to assault him of course it was not impossible, it could be done physically - I'm not saying they wanted to but it could be done physically, you can't say: "Oh no, the conditions there are such that it couldn't be done, isn't  that so?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that is so.

MR PHOSA: Are you aware of any member of the security police in your area who has anywhere alleged that Mthimkhulu was assaulted by members of your team during interrogation?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Could you repeat the question please?

MR PHOSA: Did any member of the security police in your division at any stage allege that Mthimkhulu was assaulted by your team during interrogation?  Have you come across any such allegation?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No.

MR PHOSA: Did anybody before I did - okay sorry, can I repeat - withdraw and repeat it in a different form?  Before you stood up yesterday and gave evidence here - evidence in chief being led by Mr Visser, had anybody every suggested or asked you whether or not you were aware of an allegation that your members did that, in other words, did someone say to you: "A member of the security police claims that there was an assault"?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I have no such knowledge and I wasn't asked.

MR PHOSA: So I am therefore the first person to make a suggestion to you that a member of the security police in your division made such an accusation, I'm the first person to say that to you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Whether a member of my team made such allegations?

CHAIRPERSON: No, a member of the security police in your division made allegations that he had been assaulted by members of your team that - when I say he I'm of course talking about Mthimkhulu.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I think what I said is that I had no knowledge of somebody in my team had assaulted Mr Mthimkhulu and I was not present during such an assault, I didn't take part in such an assault if it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any knowledge of a member of the security police in your division saying it did happen, that is the question.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: The reply which I don't think came over the machine was: "No, I didn't".

MR PHOSA: Perhaps my comment doesn't matter but I'm a bit astonished about that but you see - Mr Chairman, please bear with me, in the course of the rush yesterday I ended up not knowing what number - what bundle this is.

MR VISSER: It's B page 7.

MR PHOSA: Okay thank you, thank you.  Now, thank you very much.  According to bundle B on page 7 there is a person called - who goes by the name of Hamilton Bobelo, now do you know such a person?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: There was such a person, he was a member of my staff while I was stationed here and I think this piece was shown to me by the advocate, now that I see it and the name of Bobelo, I think so.

MR PHOSA: Now you suddenly remember now that: "Yes, I think my advocate showed me this".

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm convinced that he did show it to me.

MR PHOSA: Is it a - sorry, - is it a matter of no real consequence to you that a member of your team says something about an improper conduct by your team?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm sure it is important, perhaps I didn't understand you correctly because you didn't refer to this case.  I didn't know specifically what you were referring to.

MR PHOSA: I shall not even bother to follow up your answer, the record will show.  Anyway let's come to him now, is there anything that is reported as having been said by Mr Bobelo that makes you uncomfortable?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Not at all.  I have no knowledge of the content of this document.

MR PHOSA: Lest there be a misunderstanding - an alleged misunderstanding later, are you saying that you did not read this document and it was not read by anyone else to you until now?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It wasn't read to me.

MR PHOSA: So all you mean is, you just saw the name there - the name was mentioned Hamilton Bobelo and nothing else was said about what is contained therein?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I think a remark was made that he alleged that there was an assault but it wasn't applicable to me personally.

MR PHOSA: Can you please - your memory seems to recover slowly, can you tell the Commission - the Committee what it is you remember was said about Mr Bobelo?  Please try, I'm asking you seriously.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I know that this document was shown to me but it wasn't discussed in detail, I didn't read it.  It was shown to me, the remark was made that he had made the allegation about the assault.

MR PHOSA: What allegation about the assault, it's not clear to me?  I'm not saying you must suck it out of your thumb but what was said to you as having being said by Mr Bobelo about the assault?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: As I've already explained to the Committee, I didn't read the document, the allegation - if it is contained in this document, pertains to either Mr Madaka or Mr Mthimkhulu.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say also as I understand you, that neither your attorney nor your counsel discussed this document with you?  And by that I mean discussed the contents with you.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: We didn't discuss it.

MR PHOSA: I noticed that you and your counsel and I must commend both of you, did a lot of preparation for this case - for this application, isn't it - the two of you and maybe your attorney as well, isn't it" - you did a lot of preparation for this case?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is true.

MR PHOSA: You even drew his attention to something that was said my Mr Miditshwa when you were not present.

MR VISSER: No, that's not so Mr Chairman with respect, I found that on my own.

MR PHOSA: Your counsel is answering the questions I'm putting.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect to my learned friend, with great respect, I told the Committee in the present of my learned friend Mr PHOSA - if he'd been listening, that we were present here on the day when the evidence was given.  We knew about that evidence and we drew your attention to it.  I didn't ask or need my client to tell me about that evidence.

MR PHOSA: My apologies.  Can I ask him and please, may I ask the question, did you at any stage discuss with your counsel the aspect that was raised yesterday about - in the evidence of Mr Maditshwa, did you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Visser discussed it with me, he showed me a phrase there which we dealt with yesterday.

MR PHOSA: You obviously gave your own reaction to the phrase before you came here to give evidence, you gave him your views on it.  Your answer Sir?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I did give my view about it.

MR PHOSA: Now, you did not want anything that reflects badly on you to go uncorrected, isn't it?