Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

J A STEYN: On the 16th of July 1990, upon my return to Durban, I was informed by Col Botha that he'd not been successful in changing Ndaba's view, getting his head right and that he and other members had eliminated these two people.  he'd also explained to me that he couldn't release Shabalala since he would most definitely reveal the fact that him and Ndaba had been detained together, that he'd been abducted and unlawfully detained and also quite possibly his suspicion that Ndaba had been killed.  He would reveal all of this to the ANC.
	If this should happen, it would have been an embarrassment and political defeat for the National Party, especially at the negotiating table.  Accordingly, based on the previous discussion which I'd had on the 14th of July with Botha, I associated myself with this conduct.  
	I acted in the execution of my duties in the service of the South African Police.  I truly believed that such action was expected of me and that my conduct fell within the scope of my express or tacit authority.  I believed this, especially in view of the pressure which had been placed on us in the Security Branch by the political leaders of the time.  We were continually told that terrorists should be eliminated in order to avert the revolutionary onslaught.  My conduct was aimed at protecting and maintaining the state of the National Party.  I did not receive any advantage or reward for this action and I derive no personal benefit from it.

MR VISSER: Yes, General, to return to the facts, you've actually said it already, but just to clarify it, when Botha reported to you, he also constantly kept you in touch with what was happening with Mr Shabalala during the detention?

J A STEYN: Yes, I was aware that he was being detained at a safe house.

MR VISSER: So...(intervention)

MR WILLS: Sorry, can I just oppose the asking of such leading questions in this situation at such a crucial point.

CHAIRPERSON: We're not in a trial.  We're not in a trial really, we're a Committee of Inquiry.

MR WILLS: As you please, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Carry on.

MR VISSER: thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Formulate your question in the way in which you would do in another ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I asked him whether he was informed about Shabalala, what's leading about that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR VISSER: You are requesting amnesty for abduction of Mr Shabalala.  The words Charles Ndaba are incorrect there, is that correct? It's the unlawful detention and deprivation of freedom of both Mr Ndaba and Shabalala?

J A STEYN: Yes.

MR VISSER: The murder on both Charles Ndaba and Mbuso Shabalala and any other lesser offence or delict which might be revealed by the evidence?

J A STEYN: Correct.

MR VISSER: Before I conclude, I see it is 1 o'clock anyway, before I conclude the evidence-in-chief, may I ask whether you'll take the adjournment now?  There are some matters which my attorney just wants to discuss with me.

MR WILLS: We won't object, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think you are likely to be in discussions with your attorney?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, we just want to see whether we can deal with the discussion between Mr Shabalala's brother and Mr Botha and apparently there is something that my attorney wants to draw my attention to.  I don't believe it will take long.  May we inquire from you Mr Chairman what you have in mind?
Mr Chairman, if I may make a suggestion, if we might take half an hour now.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just threaten you with a suggestion myself.  Can we dispose of as much as we can now before we adjourn for lunch and resume again?

MR VISSER: On Monday?

CHAIRPERSON: No, this afternoon.  I'm trying to avoid, if we adjourn now, let's finish what we can and then adjourn instead of breaking for lunch and then coming back again this afternoon.  It just depends upon how long you are likely to be.

MR VISSER: No, this is going to be very brief Mr Chairman.  I'm sure that they're not going to spend hours talking to each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: I'm certain it's going to be very brief.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Can we say a quarter of an hour, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: And further questioning of this witness?

MR VISSER: I don't know.  I just want to hear what my attorney wants to tell me.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell him, because I'm going to be very quick on the uptake.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, what my attorney tells me is probably correct.  We did address you and give evidence before you in the Cele matter regarding the background of Operation Vula.  Now certainly it isn't our attempt to rehash all of that now, far from it, but my attorney believes that it would be reasonable if we repeat a portion Mr Chairman, from Exhibit B for the information of the new legal representatives that have come in and perhaps for whoever else might be in the audience, who might be interested and Mr Chairman, it's really only two and a half pages and that is in Exhibit B at page 116.  Now, I don't, I think it will waste time if I try to lead this through the witness, Mr Chairman.  I can do it in either one of two ways.  We can draw our learned friends' attention to it and ask them to read it, or I can quickly read it myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it has been placed on the record before us as part of the evidence in a previous hearing.  Your attention is going to be drawn to that so that you'll have an opportunity of going through it so that it might assist you in deciding what line to take when you question the applicants.

MR VISSER: Yes, that's precisely the point.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you can just refer them to the document concerned and precisely where it can be found.

MR VISSER: Yes, it's Exhibit B and it hasn't been paginated in manuscript but it's the typed page 116, 117 and 118 Mr Chairman, up to before paragraph 11.  That appears to conclude the evidence-in-chief of Mr Steyn then, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just let me sort it out.  Do you have Exhibit B Mr wills and Ms Poswa?

MR WILLS: I'm sure I do, Mr Chairperson.

MS POSWA: I have it Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You have?

MS POSWA: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, have you any objection to us dealing with this matter in this way, by counsel referring you to what was contained on those pages in that document and had been led as part of the evidence in a previous application and which they seek to incorporate in this evidence by reference?

MR WILLS: I have no objections, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Poswa?

MS POSWA: Neither have I, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  That being so, does that dispose of that aspect of the matter?

MR VISSER: And of my evidence-in-chief, yes Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  This might be a convenient stage to bring the proceedings to a close for this week and things haven't worked out as well as we would have liked them to.  We haven't worked as smoothly as we would have like to and it is just unfortunate that we had to meet and proceed with this and finish with it as soon as we can on Monday morning.  Is your difficulty still that you can't start at 9.30 on Monday morning?

MR VISSER: Only Monday morning is our problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only difficulty?

MR VISSER: Yes, we'll be flying in on Monday morning Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairman, if I can also elaborate here.  My witness,  our witness Mr Maharaj will also be flying  in on Monday morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Now a thought has occurred to me.  You are going to call Mr Maharaj, you are proposing to call Mr Maharaj to give evidence?

MR WILLS: Yes, indeed, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, and it is convenient for him to be here on Monday?

J A STEYN: It is indeed, Mr Chairperson.