Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

LUNGILE MAZWI: I told him that I am ready any time, he can only go to comrade Maxhayi to hear from him.

MR SMUTS: Yes, but was there any decision as to a particular course of action on the Sunday?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I wouldn't say we took a decision, because I told him that I am ready any time.  He then was supposed to go to comrade Maxhayi to hear from him about his views about the situation.

MR SMUTS: When did you become aware that there was a decision to launch an attack on white people?

LUNGILE MAZWI: On Monday, Monday morning when I arrived at the Workshop, he told me that he met comrade Maxhayi and he told me that they decided that we should start attacking at Port St Johns because there were comrades there who had a problem and they told the sub-region there problem.  I said I didn't have a problem about that.
	If they need me, they would find me at home.  If I am not at home, they would find me in town.

MR SMUTS: Were you ever party to a meeting of the Self Defence Unit of which you were a member, at which that Unit as a whole took a decision to retaliate in consequence of the assassination of Mr Hani?

LUNGILE MAZWI: A meeting?

MR SMUTS: Yes?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I don't remember any meeting sir.  It was just myself and Nyalukana.  I don't remember or I didn't hear about any meeting.

MR SMUTS: When you were told that the decision had been taken to launch an attack at Port St Johns, did you enquire as to why that was to be the place of the attack?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I didn't ask because I knew that there were problems in Port St Johns, the comrades in Port St Johns had a problem.

MR SMUTS: And how did, what did you understand that problem to be?

LUNGILE MAZWI: According to my knowledge, the problem that they had was that there were people who were disturbing the struggle in Port St Johns.
	Even though I didn't know their names.

MR SMUTS: In what manner were you advised that these people were disturbing the struggle in Port St Johns?

LUNGILE MAZWI: What I heard from the meeting, I can't say it now exactly what was said, but it was said that the comrades from Port St Johns had a problem.  What was very clear to me was that at the time when the Communist Party was launching the party there, there was a disturbance, there was noise, there were car hooters in front of the hall and there were cars in front of the hall, and there were a lot of things we heard, that happened.

MR SMUTS: Is that the incident to which Mr Maxhayi testified earlier which took place some two years before the shooting at Mpande on the 13th of April, a year before the shooting at Mpande in 1993?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Yes, it is one of the incidents.

MR SMUTS: Had any action been taken in respect of that disturbance before April of 1993?

LUNGILE MAZWI: By whom?

MR SMUTS: By the Self Defence Unit?

LUNGILE MAZWI: In Port St Johns or in Flagstaff?

MR SMUTS: At all?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I wouldn't be sure about things that happened when I was not there, I am not aware of such a thing.

MR SMUTS: So you are not aware of any action taken between the disturbance of the meeting in 1992 and April 1993 when you decided to set off on this venture to Port St Johns?

LUNGILE MAZWI: What I know is that what happened when the comrades reported this at the sub-region, they were told to investigate so that we can be sure where the problem is, how did this happen, how did this disturbance happen at Port St Johns.
	Before we can even get a full answer, the incident of Chris Hani happened.

MR SMUTS: Are you saying then that there was not sufficient certainty about that disturbance some time in 1992, to justify action being taken by the Self Defence Unit before April of 1993?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Can you please explain sir.  Please repeat your question.

MR SMUTS: You say that the Port St Johns people were told to furnish a full report regarding the disturbance.  Does that mean that the information that was available, was not of sufficiently clear a nature to require the Self Defence Unit to act upon it before April of 1993?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I wouldn't say it was not clear or it was clear, but there was a problem, it was very clear that they had a problem.
	We then reached a decision for them to go and investigate and then the Chris Hani incident happened.

MR SMUTS: They had not reported on their investigations before the assassination of Mr Hani, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: They didn't come back with an answer, while I was in a meeting of the sub-region, according to my knowledge.

MR SMUTS: Why did the assassination of Mr Hani in Boksburg, require your taking action against this problem, in Port St Johns in April in 1993?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I didn't take it as that it happened in Boksburg, I took it as it happened in South Africa.  As a South African, I was supposed to do everything here in South Africa.

MR SMUTS: Could you explain that?

CHAIRPERSON: You asked him Mr Smuts, why did he have to do something in Port St Johns in retaliation for something that occurred in Boksburg.  He said he saw himself as a South African, not as a Port St Johns' resident or Boksburg resident.

MR SMUTS: The question I am putting to you is what had happened in Port St Johns did not require your action as a Self Defence Unit before April of 1993, is that correct?

LUNGILE MAZWI: The problem that was reported by the comrades before the Chris Hani incident?

MR SMUTS: Yes?

LUNGILE MAZWI: There was nothing which forced us to take steps or take action because it was not very clear, because they were told to go and investigate.  After the investigation, we would then make a decision.  I don't know whether I have answered your question sir.

MR SMUTS: Yes, thank you.  Why did you then decide in April 1993 to target Port St Johns for an attack?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Port St Johns was closer to us and it had a problem at that time.

MR SMUTS: When the decision to attack Port St Johns became known to you, had it already been decided?  Was it simply reported to you that there was going to be an attack on whites at Port St Johns?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I was not told, as I have already said when I spoke to Mr Nyalukana, he was going to speak to Mr Maxhayi, I was expecting anything, anytime.

MR SMUTS: Well, were you advised that a decision had been taken, or did you participate in the making of a decision as to what to do?

LUNGILE MAZWI: Can you please explain your question, it is not clear to me?

MR SMUTS: Did you participate in the decision to launch an attack on white people at Port St Johns, or was it simply communicated to you by Mr Nyalukana or whoever, that a decision had been taken to attack white people at Port St Johns?

LUNGILE MAZWI: I can say that I was there when they took the decision, because when they arrived at home, we went outside and we spoke and we decided to go and attack Port St Johns.

MR SMUTS: I would like you to define somewhat more clearly what the decision was that you took?  You say you decided to go and attack Port St Johns.  That is a fairly large scale operation.  What was the precise decision that you took?

LUNGILE MAZWI: When the comrades arrived, they told me that they heard a view that they should go to the comrades in Port St Johns, concerning their problem.
	I then told the comrades that we should do that because Port St Johns were closer and we should start there, because it was closer.

MR SMUTS: Well, if you decided to start in Port St Johns because it was closer, what did you decide to go and do in Port St Johns, or was there as yet, no decision as to what precisely you were going to do?

LUNGILE MAZWI: When we moved from Port St Johns, we decided to go and hit the enemy, the enemy we heard about before.  Even though we were not sure where we would find this enemy, we hoped that we would find comrades that would show us the enemy and attack and then go back.