Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I think the first person spent a longer time than the second person.

ADV BOSMAN: Longer or shorter than yours?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I think the first person was much longer than me and the second person spent approximately the same time period as I did.

ADV BOSMAN: Under the cross-examination of Mr Dreyer you were asked whether this massacre at the Radora Crossing was the total result of the revolutionary attempt by the AWB of that evening and he wanted to know if that was all that they could muster and you said that you didn't know, that you didn't know whether the other areas had received orders because you were not present.  Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.  I can definitely say that in other areas such as Natal and the Free State there were certain events or occurrences but I can't tell you exactly when and I wasn't there when they were issued with orders.

ADV BOSMAN: This issue involves the Order group meeting, the cross-examination involves the order that was given and General Oelofse who was responsible for all the area commanders, those who had the same responsibilities as you did in your area and you said that you didn't even know whether the others received orders because you weren't present - you went in one for one?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Then towards the end of our discussion here today you were asked regarding the fact that things had gone wrong and why and that you hadn't spoken to anybody and then you mention two names.  Can you remember them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Colonel Joe van Wyk and J. Falconer.

ADV BOSMAN: And you've said or what did you ask them when you spoke to them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Why haven't I heard anything from you?

ADV BOSMAN: And what did they say?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Because they didn't do the work which they were supposed to.

ADV BOSMAN: You've never asked them what their orders were you simply asked them "why didn't I hear anything from your side" and what they said was "we couldn't get any people to do the work that we were supposed to do."
	Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, may I perhaps just pose one question which pertains to a question that was put by the Committee Member, Advocate Bosman to the witness if I may?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well let's hear, what is the question?

MR DREYER: Mr Kloppers, Advocate Bosman as a Member of the Committee, asked you whether it was strange that during the meeting of the 12th December only certain areas or regions were represented because according to you it was such an important meeting because that was the meeting where it was decided to
begin the revolution.  Can you remember that question?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes I can remember the question and the answer.

MR DREYER: And in terms of that I would like to ask you when you testified here you said that after the meeting you'd asked Stephanie Oelofse if you could phone from there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MR DREYER: And you spoke to Mr Martin's wife because you couldn't speak to him alone and your evidence is here, I've written it down, please correct me if I'm wrong - what did you ask her or tell her and you said that he told her to tell Martin that he should gather some of the men because we were going to work and just as Advocate Bosman asked you, isn't it strange that only some of the area commanders attended this vitally important meeting where the beginning of the revolution was planned and an order was given therefore.  I want to ask you isn't it strange that you would then tell Mr Martin's wife to tell him to gather some of the men, why didn't you tell Mr Martin to get all the men together at your disposal, why only some of the men and this to begin the revolution with?

ADV BOSMAN: I think the answer to that question was that all the areas were represented, not only some of them and I think secondly, it speaks for itself that not everybody was going to be holding a roadblock.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you plan to do by killing the people you wanted to kill, what did you plan to do with the bodies?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: There was no planning for the disposal of the bodies of those who would have died, that is exactly what Oelofse wanted that people would be found under those circumstances and that those who found them would know that the AWB was in fact in operation and that they were serious.

CHAIRPERSON: And would the people then know that it was the work of the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The people would definitely have known that this was the work of the AWB especially with regard to the previous vehicles that we stopped, we expected it to be headline news that the papers would definitely mention that these people had been shot on the road and that people would come forward and say that they had also been pulled over by that roadblock.

CHAIRPERSON: After these people were shot a vehicle appeared and some of your men panicked and hurriedly left the scene.  Doesn't that show lack of planning?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: To me it was wrong of them to leave the scene so quickly and when we met again I was very angry regarding the incident and I clearly indicated this to them as well.

CHAIRPERSON: It shows, doesn't it, lack of planning on your side?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Perhaps I should have undergone better planning.

CHAIRPERSON: You had to shout to them to say well we'll meet at the City Hall, Randfontein City Hall?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was a reasonably general meeting place in the centre of Randfontein and I believe that's where we could meet and then disband from there again and move in our various directions.

CHAIRPERSON: This had not been preplanned that after this operation you would meet at the City Hall?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No it was not planned beforehand, that's why I shouted it to them.

CHAIRPERSON: That's poor planning, isn't it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you end up with such poor planning if you are launching a genuine military operation or do you want me to say paramilitary operation?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I believed that if we had shot and if everybody had died, we would have moved to our various places from there.  I didn't anticipate that one of the vehicles would drive away.

CHAIRPERSON: Well doesn't this show that this thing was really not a planned military operation?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was a planned operation, the men knew what to do, the entire situation was planned entirely, the post operation planning was not undertaken properly and that is where the problem came in.

CHAIRPERSON: The document that you referred us to I think it was EXHIBIT A ....inaudible]

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: ...[inaudible] Page 11, 12.   Chairperson, if you can just tell me what you're looking for I might be of assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: The portion that refers us to revolution and the like.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is at the bottom of page 11 that is War or Guerilla Warfare.

CHAIRPERSON: The one which tells us that you could succeed with the help of God and so on and so forth, in block letters.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's page 17.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, that's what I was looking for.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Revolution at Hand.

CHAIRPERSON: If you read that whole area doesn't it suggest that the AWB was planning to act defensively and not pro-actively?  Doesn't it say that if the revolution was forced on us, I think that was more or less?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It had already been enforced upon us as conveyed to me by General Oelofse at the Order Group meeting and that is why we went over into action.