Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-24

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we are 
back on the first matter as per schedule, Joe Tsele Mr
Chairman.  This pertains to the victims or the next of kin to the deceased, Mr Chairman.  They are here 
present and I have consulted with them.  They do not have a legal representative, but they have indicated 
that one of them would like to take the stand and say something on behalf of the family and that will be the 
sister to the deceased.
	But it is not only the sister who is present, the children are also here in person.  May I then Mr 
Chairman, with your permission, call the sister to the stand?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, please do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Ms Mabela.  Mr Chairman, the witness is Tswana speaking, may she be 
made to take an oath?
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: ADV  MPSHE	53

LEGINA MABELA: (sworn states)

HASSAN MALL: What are your full names?

LEGINA MABELA: My name is Legina Mabela.

HASSAN MALL: How old are you if you could remember?

LEGINA MABELA: I am 72 years old.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The deceased who is Joseph Tsele, was he your elder 
brother?

LEGINA MABELA: That is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You would remember that I had discussions with you the last time about this issue, do 
you remember?

LEGINA MABELA: Yes, I remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is when you agreed that you are going to be the one who is going to represent the 
relatives.

LEGINA MABELA: That is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You are before this Committee, would you explain about the event on behalf of the 
family?  You can explain.

LEGINA MABELA: When we were listening, when they were 
talking we realised that we are not happy the way they were
talking.  It seems if we may meet Mr Mamasela who was responsible for this act as they were telling.  We 
have nothing to say except meeting Mr Mamasela to tell us his position.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I did explain to you about Joe Mamasela, that the possibility for him to be present in this 
Committee, how does it work.

LEGINA MABELA: Yes, you did explain to us but we feel that we don't agree with this issue because he is 
the only one who knows what has happened.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The applicants within their applications have asked forgiveness about this act.  As you 
know that this is 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 54

LEGINA MABELA: the time for reconciliation and forgiveness in our country, what is your feeling about the forgiveness and 
reconciliation?

LEGINA MABELA: We cannot be able to forgive them if we can know the truth from Mr Mamasela to know 
what they have done and what was his part in the incident, then therefore we will be able to think how we 
can forgive them.  If you know the truth, you are able to forgive.  We don't know as whether what they 
have told us is the truth or not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Your own feelings about reconciliation, what kind of feelings do you have about 
reconciliation and forgiveness?

LEGINA MABELA: I want to know the truth.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is there anything you want to say?

LEGINA MABELA: I want to know the truth only.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you end up there?

LEGINA MABELA: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, may I mention before any
questions ... (intervention) (no interpretation) ...who are herein present, thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no questions Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-

ADV DU PLESSIS: .

LEGINA MABELA: May I talk sir?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, please.

LEGINA MABELA: What bothers me, as I said I am looking for the truth, is that he was destroyed.  He was 
shot and he was cut and then on the floor, we found 25 bullets.  That is the truth I want to find out as what 
is the part of Mr Mamasela 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 55

LEGINA MABELA: as depend our discovery on the scene, that is why I am looking for Mr Mamasela.

HASSAN MALL: Do I understand her evidence to mean that unless Mr Mamasela himself comes and 
admits to her that he killed her brother, she has nothing to say.  She wishes to hear it from him, is that the 
position?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is the position Mr Chairman, but as I've indicated, I did explain to them during 
lunch the position as far as that is concerned.

JUDGE WILSON: Could I ask you whoever interpreted her last answer, whether my note is 
correct where she said what bothers me is that "he was shot and cut", did she in fact refer to cutting as 
separate injuries to the shooting?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if I am correct on the word she used, she used (Tswana words stated), in 
other words she was brutally killed.

JUDGE WILSON: Oh, thank you.

JUDGE MGOEPE: If I listen to the original version in her
language, and not to the English translation or Afrikaans translation, isn't also what she is saying isn't it that 
she said that when she was asked about forgiving, she said that she doesn't know whether these people are 
telling the truth and she needs to know what Mamasela says happened there. 	Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct, that is what she said in her evidence, that is what she said.

JUDGE MGOEPE: She intimated that she has no knowledge  as to whether or not what the applicants are 
saying, whether their version is true or not and only Mamasela could tell us whether the version is - their 
version is the true one or not.  That is actually what she was saying.
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GAUTENG: 56

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Does she know if there were other people present in the house with her brother 
the night he was shot?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, inasfar as that is concerned, during consultation they mentioned including 
herself, that there were people present on the premises of the deceased.  The deceased had some outside 
rooms rented out to local students as well as lady teachers.	They stated to me that these people were 
present when this thing happened.  And if I may continue I indicated to her that I did read their statements, 
two lady teachers who in the statements state that they were not present ... (tape ends) they went and 
knocked at the deceased's door.  That is her version.

HASSAN MALL: Ask her if she has anything else to say besides her request that she would like to hear Mr 
Mamasela himself.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is there something that you would want to add on top of what you have already said, and 
besides Mr Mamasela or are you through?

LEGINA MABELA: I am through Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was he active in politics?

LEGINA MABELA: I don't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was he involved in trade unions or labour unions?

LEGINA MABELA: I was not staying with him, I don't know.

HASSAN MALL: Very well, you are excused, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 57

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, then that puts us onto matter number 2, that if the killing of Brian 
Ngqulunga.  I leave that in the hands of my learned friend and the next of kin of victims are also present 
here in.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are they represented Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: They are also not represented.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.