Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I couldn't answer that.

CHAIRPERSON: He wants to know according to your knowledge?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I don't have any knowledge of that, I really don't know whether that is standard practise.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long had you been in the Force?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: At that stage about ten years.  But I just want to qualify it by saying that I only at the end of 1985 (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever see a person being appointed to investigate an incident in which himself had been involved?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I had never been involved in such an incident.  It was also my very first inquest which I dealt with.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other incident, not necessarily of this nature, but any incident where a person was involved and was then asked to become the Investigating Officer, did you ever experience such a thing?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Not as far as I can recall.

MR BLACK: Thank you.  Mr Swarts, if I may just begin at the inquest stage, did you as the Investigating Officer either inform the families, any member of the families whose sons could be identified as to the circumstances under which they were killed, that their children were killed?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I can't recall that Chairperson.

MR BLACK: Did you tell anyone at say for example at Louis Trichardt mortuary or any of the police who had to contact the families, as to what information they must give the families in the event of the families wanting to know where there children were killed?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct, yes.

MR BLACK: Well, can you just explain the following to me please.  The Moloi family if I may refer to them as that, were told that their child was killed in Soutpansberg.
	They obviously at the time can't remember the exact name of the policeman who told them that, but that is what they were told.  Could you explain that?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Is that a question Chairperson?

MR BLACK: Yes, I am just asking you if it is possible for you to give me some explanation as to, because each one of these families were given false information.
	I will go through it all together.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, it could well have been in Soutpansberg area, Alldays, is it not?

MR BLACK: Yes, okay, that is all they were told.

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes, Soutpansberg is in that area.

MR BLACK: But they were only told the child was killed in the Soutpansberg.  Did you give more detailed information to any of the Officers who had advise the families?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I can't recall what I told the people.  And I can't testify as to what those people told the family.

MR BLACK: Yes, because then the Alset family was told that their son was found, when they made enquiries at Louis Trichardt, when they went to identify the body, information given to them was that their son was found on the mountains near Messina and then the Mogashoa family was told that their son was killed at Pontdrift.

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I can't comment.

MR BLACK: Okay.  From the inquest report it would appear that a Lieutenant Bester took certain photographs in respect of - you pointed our certain objects or points which he had to take photographs of, do you recall that?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: That is correct yes.

MR BLACK: Was it on the same day?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes, if I remember correctly it was on the same day, at Alldays.

MR BLACK: Was he with your group of people?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No.

MR BLACK: Were you present as the Investigating Officer at all times with him, while he was taking photographs?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: If I remember correctly I was present when the explosives and the bags and things were pointed out to him.  I think the corpses were there as well, but I can't remember exactly.

MR BLACK: Did he go out to the scene of the operation, did you as the Investigator take him out to where the shooting had taken place so that he could take photographs of that scene?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No, Chairperson.

MR BLACK: I just, if you can give an explanation please do so, during the course of the day, one of the Investigators of the Truth Commission went through the registers or the records, let us put it that way, kept at the information centre I am told, or the finger print, where the finger print experts are or where these photographs are kept, and an entry in the register shows that on the 10th of July, in Alldays a Mr Bester took 260 photographs.
	130 of them were enlarged.  But no trace of those photographs could be found in the whatever you want to call it, archives or safe keeping place.

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I can't comment on that.

MR BLACK: Yes, but would there have been any reason for him to have taken 260 photographs if the only objects that he photographed were the bodies and the ammunition and the vehicle at Alldays?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I don't know.

MR BLACK: Does it strike you as being a bit abnormal?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I don't know if it is abnormal.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now, during this operation, you've made mention during the execution of this operation, let's put it that way, when the shooting took place, you as an expert in explosives, did you only hear gunshots going off?
	Were there any hand grenade explosions and anything to that?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: No, there were no explosions, Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: After this inquest being held, were you ever approached by any of your seniors to find out you being the Investigating Officer, as to what your findings were of your investigations and what took place at the inquest?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: I can't recall that.

MR BLACK: Did you report to any, when I say your seniors, I am talking about people like Colonel Van der Merwe, Brigadier Coetzee, as to - did you file a report on your findings?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Chairperson, I reported to Lieutenant Dreyer, my Branch Commander.

ADV VISSER: Just one technical point, this witness didn't make any findings Mr Chairman, unless there is something we don't know about.

CHAIRPERSON: I was under the impression that the question was whether after the inquest had made its findings, the witness passed the information over to his seniors?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes, that is right, I also understood it like that Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: Perhaps for clarity, you say that you were appointed the Investigating Officer, to investigate what?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Chairperson, to prepare the inquest for the court.

MR BLACK: So you were appointed in order to, well there was nothing much to investigate.  It appears that amongst the three of you, you had agreed what facts were going to be placed before the inquest hearing, is that correct?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Is that a statement or a question, I don't understand?

MR BLACK: What did you have to investigate?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: The inquest docket and everything in it.

MR BLACK: But I gather that you - had you agreed what was going to go into that docket, what evidence was going to be presented to the inquest hearing?  Had you, Mr Erwee and Dreyer agreed as to what was to be presented to the inquest?

FREDERIK CHRISTIAAN STEPHANUS SWARTS: Yes, Captain Erwee did say that he was going to give his statement in such a way and I said that my statement would be in such a way and he gave the reasons for that, and I agreed with that.

MR BLACK: Was there a formal report given to Lieutenant Dreyer of your findings of a inquiry which you had made or an investigation which you had made?
	Or did you not go through that farce?