Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana can I just refer you, if you will have a look at Exhibit B ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you do that, to clear any possible confusion, the three of you went to that place where you have mentioned, Vogels...or whatever you call it.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: After leaving some of your colleagues on the farm.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct, it was called Alldays Farm.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went to some point where the colonel demonstrated to you as to how you should drive the combi, stop and get out.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.  I went with the three people there to show me how I was supposed to react when we come to that point.

CHAIRPERSON: And then after they finished demonstrating to you the three of you drove back to the farm in Alldays where you had left earlier on your colleagues, your other colleagues.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: After they have demonstrated to me as to what I shall do we went back to the farm, that's where we were sleeping with the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana can you have a look at Exhibit B, is B in front of you, in paragraph 6.  At the end of that paragraph you start to mention a number of names that were present, can you explain to the Committee were those people present?  And why are you mentioning their names there?

CHAIRPERSON: Which Exhibit is that?

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman I believe it's B is the originally signed supplementary affidavit.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I can see it.

MR ROSSOUW: Can you tell the Committee, the names that you are mentioning there, which of those people were present?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't have the clear picture as to whether they were all there, however, I will say we were together because we slept in that place, some were coming from different stations.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly refer us to the record now, I presume you are referring to page 8 in the bundle, the A part of the bundle, page 8 is an affidavit annexed to the application or the form dated June 1997?

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman that is correct. I am referring to page 7 and 8.  The names start at the bottom of page 7 in the bundle and continue on page 8.  Unfortunately Mr Sehlwana does not have a bundle in front of him.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I think he should have a bundle before him and could you please during the lunch time, and I will also call on Mr Visser and Mr Black to do so, please paginate these papers so that we could refer to a specific page and know what we are all talking about.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman I will see to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rossouw let's just try to get things in order.  Which document exactly are you referring to? Because Exhibit B, when I spoke to the record about it earlier on I told the record that Exhibit B was going to be a document or an application form as you called it, dated the 6th of June 1997.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman that is correct and that is the signed copy of pages - it's bound under A in the bundle.  So it will, of that Form 1, be page 7 and 8.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Rossouw it is an annexure to that annexure, Exhibit B, it is actually an annexure to Exhibit B.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, thank you.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana you stated there on page 7 of that document in front of you, and 8, certain names, can you tell the Committee the involvement of those people and when were they involved?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't understand what you mean what they were doing where, because what I said is we left Pietersburg and we went to the farm and we left them there at the farm and we went to Eenvogelpan with these two people I have already explained.  What they were doing I don't know but we left them at the farm.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Sehlwana please continue.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: If you will forgive me I don't remember where we stopped but I will continue.

ADV DE JAGER: I think he's trying to ask you what were the names of the people that accompanied you to the border there, to Eenvogelpan or - I believe they were staying at Alldays on the farm at Alldays and you and Erwee and this unknown person proceeded to Eenvogelpan.  Now after visiting the scene, the would-be scene of the shoot-out the next day you went back and you slept at Alldays on the farm is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And who were the people sleeping with you there, the police people that were involved in this incident?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Okay.  The people we were sleeping with there were many people in that farm. However, those whom I mention here I only happened to find out that they were together with us on the following day.  There were many people who were sleeping because there were people coming from different stations.  Those who were coming from Pietersburg whose names are here, who were there, although I don't know when they came into the farm but I managed to come into contact with them on the second day.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that after the colonel had demonstrated to you as to how you should drive the vehicle, stop it and get out of it, you went back to the farm in Alldays.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Take us from there and go on to tell us what happened.