Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ANTON PRETORIUS: Like you have heard, the information given to Colonel Watermeyer to the commission, he was the responsible person. Anything that was in the interest of security, the transcripts of Mrs Madikizela Mandela's telephonic discussions, it was his task to write a report. Perhaps he'd already served before the commission. The moment I received the transcripts I would perhaps say I received it last of all. I had to look and see what I could do with the different patches of information. The information, perhaps I could explain it by saying that I had to build the castle. I had to explain where Sonny, Piet and the others fitted in. When I came across something concrete I had to, the procedure was that I had to write a report with regard to the information. But then it wasn't only about the transcripts. There could have been informant information. At that stage the security task also used a lot of information. And then in that case I wrote a report. That is what I therefore did with the information.

MR VALLY: ... Mr Pretorius to be concise and answer a question specifically. He's trying to overwhelm us with irrelevant detail.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Vally I'd also remind you that whilst I will caution Mr Pretorius that you actually also running out of time. So.

MR VALLY: Well Madame Chair, we're here for a purpose and if our purpose is being sabotaged by Mr Pretorius then I think you must direct your instructions to the right place. But let us go on.
 Did you have specific profiles regarding certain people? For example all the information that you collected regarding Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, from a telephone tapping or from your other bronne, your other sources, did you put it all together and keep it in one file? Yes or no?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Not me, as Colonel Watermeyer has said, he was responsible for that.

MR VALLY: Did Colonel Watermeyer do so?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I don't think it was Watermeyer all the time, only him. There were other people under his command.

MR VALLY: ... information regarding Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela, was there a file of that sort? Or was there a filing cabinet where it was all kept? Was there a space where it was all kept?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR VALLY: ... access to this. Was it a cabinet or a file, just tell me so I know how to refer to it as?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Madame Chair, I want to say yes but I want to qualify, to give you the background as how it worked.

MR VALLY: (inaudible) I will not go in (...intervention)

MR KEMP: Madame Chair, (...intervention)

MR VALLY: Madame Chair, really this game that has been played between Mr Kemp and his attorney, I haven't got anywhere because Mr Pretorius is playing silly games. I will not refer to it as a filing cabinet or a file. But we know  there was a collection of information regarding Mrs Madikizela Mandela, which he knows about. Can I just go on from there?

MR KEMP: Madame Chair may I (...intervention)

YASMINE SOOKA: Let me listen to Mr Kemp please?

MR KEMP: Madame Chair, I please it must be noted that I've once again been accused of playing games. But I will take that up in another forum. The question was asked whether there was any files and the reply was short and succinct as requested. Yes. Mr Vally then asked detail about that. The witness is trying to explain the workings which he did and how he did that. Now if he is not allowed to tell how it worked he should not be criticised for not giving the detail. That's all that I ask, Madame Chair.

YASMINE SOOKA: I will note it but I will also note that I think your client is incredibly wordy in terms of giving an appropriate response. So I'm going to ask Mr Vally to allow the witness to answer the question. And if we can all be careful about what we actually going to say then perhaps we can get through the remaining evidence this witness has to give, sooner.
 Mr Pretorius, you were asked the question, you've said in your evidence that it was all kept in one place. Now Mr Vally asked you is that in a filing cabinet and I think we want an answer to that please without a lengthy explanation.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Madame I was planning before he stopped me. It is clear to me that there is confusion as to how this system worked. The administrative component of the Security Branch Soweto was responsible for all files. We had a file office and there was a filing cabinet and in the cabinet were the files. The file of Mrs Mandela as well as hundreds of other people.

MR VALLY: ... to ask you as a member of the Murder and Robbery Squad or as a member of the Attorney General's office I need information from Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela's file, you would have ready access to such information?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That is true, I would have access.

MR VALLY: ... of a certain Mr Reyneke from the Security Branch?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Kobus Reyneke, I know him well.

MR VALLY: ... ?

ANTON PRETORIUS: He was also stationed at the Security Branch Soweto. So he was my colleague I suppose.

MR VALLY: ... information regarding Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela, he would have ready access to it, would he not?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I believe so.

MR VALLY: ... had transcripts of the recordings of Mrs Madikizela Mandela's telephone conversations, are you aware of the recording of a conversation she had when she was allegedly not in her house during the time of the abduction of Mr Stompie Sepei and three other young people from the Methodist manse?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Commission I, to the best of my knowledge I cannot remember the incident. Its' possible that I might have read the transcriptions but that I put it in the van der Merwe file, as we call it. In other words, shredded it because it did not relate to me at that stage when I read it. But I cannot specifically remember it.

MR VALLY: ... the whole country was in an uproar about the situation, there were questions being asked in the press, there were raids on Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house, would you (...intervention)

ANTON PRETORIUS: That's right.

MR VALLY: And you tell me that this information regarding, allegedly regarding her alibi was shredded by you? Is that what you're telling us?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That's what I'm trying to say. It was not my function. I knew it was in competent hands of Murder and Robbery. It did not relate to me. I was busy with other matters. And I don't know whether I should explain this or whether Mr Vally want to ask why I was present with the search, the raid, but I actually did say that.

MR VALLY: ... I want to ask you. I want to find out from you where you have a crucial bit of evidence which your police in Murder and Robbery Squad are investigating and with whom you claim, and I quote you from paragraph ten; "In general I can say that the relationship between the Security Branch, Murder and Robbery and other units of the South African Police besonders goed was - it was very good. You tell me the relationship was so good, you know about this matter, you had taken part in a raid of Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house in connection with this matter, you find a crucial bit of evidence from a telephone transcript regarding an alibi or potential alibi and you shred it? Is this the logical way that a police man would behave?