Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, we met with him in the streets of Zwelitsha, he was walking up and down.  We told him that all the senior Policemen were in the hall, we took him to the hall.

MR OBOSE: These two Officers that you brought to the hall, did they remain in the hall until the early hours of the next morning, the next day?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, that is correct, they remained in the hall until the next morning.

MR OBOSE: Thank you, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Obose.  Mr Nompozolo any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett, any questions?

MS COLLETT: Thank you, yes.  What was the purpose for wanting the senior Officers to go to the hall?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: We wanted Gqozo to feel isolated because those were the people who he regarded as his pillars.

MS COLLETT: But isn't it true that Nqoya was suspected as being with Gqozo at that time?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I do not understand the question.

MS COLLETT: At the time that you people were at the hall, isn't it true that you believed that Nqoya was with Brigadier Gqozo or had been with Brigadier Gqozo?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: We were not aware of his whereabouts, that is why we had to go to look for him at his house and we got that information from the soldiers, they told us where he was.

MS COLLETT: How would Gqozo feel isolated if people  like the High Commanding Officers were held against their will?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Those people were very close to him and he would use those people whenever he wanted to issue some instructions, he would use those people.

MS COLLETT: So basically the reason that you wanted the senior Officers, was so that no instructions could be issued against you?

INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat the question, Ma'am?

MS COLLETT: The reason you wanted the senior Officers was so that no instructions could be issued against you?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: We wanted Gqozo to be left alone where he was, and we wanted him to get the message that he should step down.

MS COLLETT: If that was the case, why weren't key people in the Army taken hostage?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: We wanted Gqozo to be all alone and we wanted him to be all alone and it is difficult for any human being to be left all alone, to be isolated.

MS COLLETT: You are not answering my question.  My question is if you wanted Gqozo to be alone, why didn't you take key people in the military, take them hostage as well?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: We had heard that even the soldiers on the side, were united, they were together.

MS COLLETT: Did you attempt to take Gqozo's bodyguards?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: No, we never attempted to do that.

MS COLLETT: What time did you take Colonel Nqoya's wife and child?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I think it was about six o'clock.

MS COLLETT: Did they go voluntarily?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: No, they did not go there voluntarily.

MS COLLETT: Were they distressed?

INTERPRETER: Will you please repeat the question, Ma'am?

MS COLLETT: Were they distressed?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: They looked that way.

MS COLLETT: When they got to the College hall, what happened to them?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: When they got in the hall, we handed them over to the Police who were next to the door, to take them in.

MS COLLETT: How long after taking the wife and child, was it that Nqoya was taken to the hall?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Nqoya was found late in the night, I think it was hours after they were brought into the hall, the wife and the child that is.

MS COLLETT: In other words this wife and child were there at the hall for a long period of time without Colonel Nqoya, sorry Gen Nqoya?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Yes, that is correct.

MS COLLETT: How did it come about that they went home?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: When Gen Nqoya came, an instruction was issued to take them home.

MS COLLETT: Were you part of that taking them home?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I cannot remember, but I was not present when they were being taken home, but I remember when it was said that they should be taken home.

MS COLLETT: If what you say is correct, and Nqoya was found at the guard house by Gqozo's premises, were you not of the opinion that he was being protected by Gqozo at that stage?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I did not take it that way because if he was protecting, there would be no need for the soldiers to phone the Police and tell the Police that he was there.  Therefore the soldiers knew that he was wanted by the Police, that is why immediately when they saw him, they phoned the Police to come and fetch him there.

MS COLLETT: Did the Police still want Nqoya in connection with the things that they wanted him for that morning?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I don't think they were looking for him for what was happening the morning, I think they wanted him concerning this Gqozo issue because what was more important in that meeting, the people were singing  freedom songs and they wanted to do away with Gqozo.

MS COLLETT: Isn't it correct that about eight o'clock that evening, Gqozo had actually stepped down?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I do not remember that.  I did not get it that way.

MS COLLETT: What do you mean by saying you did not get it that way?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I did not hear people saying that at about eight o'clock Gqozo had stepped down.

MS COLLETT: Do you recall the Interim Administration in the form of Mr Goosen, Adv Jurgens and Rev Finca coming to the hall that evening?

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I never saw them.

MS COLLETT: You see, I want to put it to you that Brigadier Gqozo stepped down that evening at approximately eight o'clock.

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I don't know that.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you that the Interim Administration visited the Police College thereafter, having taken over the reigns of Gqozo and asked you people to disperse.

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: Maybe I couldn't identify them because I did not know them and there were a lot of people coming in, coming out, I don't even know the other people who were there.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you further that the reason that you wanted Nqoya, could have had nothing to do with the stepping down of Gqozo because he had already stepped down.

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: The fact that Gqozo did step down, I got those news in the morning after we had found Gen Nqoya, that is when I got the news.

MS COLLETT: I want to put it to you further that when Nqoya was brought to the Police College, he also informed you that Gqozo had stepped down earlier that evening.

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I don't know how that happened because we were still looking for him at that time, there were no news about Gqozo stepping down at that moment.

MS COLLETT: According to Nkwenkwe, he had already told the Police at that stage that Gqozo had stepped down.

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: I did not hear them saying that.

MS COLLETT: You see, I want to put it to you that the reason you wanted Nqoya had nothing whatsoever to do with the stepping down of Gqozo, it had to do with the fact that you people were conducting a kangaroo court there.

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: When I heard that, I was told that they were looking for all the Officers, all the Policemen to gather at the hall.  Officers, non-commissioned Officers, everyone was wanted in the hall and there were senior Officers like Nqoya, because those were the people who were very close to him, Gqozo that is, and they were also told that they should go to the hall.

MS COLLETT: I also want to put it to you that you didn't find Nqoya at the guard house, you found him and his bodyguards en route to the Police College.

PUMULELA ARCHIBOL LONI: No, we found him in the guard post, the one that leads to the ministerial complex.