Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-16

MR VERSTER: Yes, Chairperson, I'm of the opinion that I have answered the question ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Then answer it again.

MR VERSTER: ... what I want to say about this is, what happened here is that for my survival in the Harms Commission, I acted in a certain manner and after that because there were many projects in the CCB, when I sat down with the region and I spoke about the facts that came to light, I realised and I was reminded of the exact circumstances.  It is not that we took it up lightly, it is just that there were many things that were on my conscience as an individual and in this regard it is how I acted.  There was nothing that I specifically had to remember regarding the monitoring, it was mainly about the dispute, it was about the fact that Gen Webb was not prepared to say that he did know about it or that he was involved with it, and I reacted on this.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Bizos, can I just interpose for one second.
	Why didn't you then in those circumstances that you've now sketched, simply say to the Harms Commission "look, I've been isolated from all my documentation, I've been isolated from all my comrades, I've been involved in hundreds of incidents, I can't answer these questions unless you allow me access to all my things"?

MR VERSTER: I do not know whether I maybe did say it in any case.  I don't know if I've said it here, but the first day that the CCB was uncovered and we had to - I think I said it yesterday, every incident was presented to my legal team and at the Minister's level it was said "what did you do?"  I was under the impression that I was honest in everything that I could get from the regions and I did present it ...(intervention)

MR LAX: You see, you're not answering my question, with respect, and I know you haven't finished, but I can see exactly where you're going.  It's really a simple matter.  You're confronted with this statement you made, why isn't there an explanation here in relation to this statement which appears at this place, that says "listen, these things as I put them here are the best as I can recall then now, but without access to all my documentation, I can't answer anything more"?

MR VERSTER: My answer to you just now was that I'm not sure whether I didn't do that in any case.  That was my first ...(intervention)

MR LAX: But it doesn't appear anywhere here.  We've been through this section before.

MR VERSTER: Very well, but I can give no better answer than saying that I acted back then under these circumstances in this way, under the pressure that I was.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see if we go to 1566, you repeat the untruth in relation to Evans and Dullah Omar, we'll confine ourselves to those two.  Do you see it, 1566, paragraph (b)
"Above-mentioned persons were monitored by members of the CCB, as part of the CCB's normal working procedure in order to gather information."
That was a deliberate untruth - well, it was untrue.  Let's start with one thing at a time, it was untrue.

MR VERSTER: I've answered this several times ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that untrue?  And was it repeated?

MR VERSTER: I have told you ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR VERSTER: I have told you ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Is it untrue?  Just say yes, so that we can on with it.

MR VERSTER: At that stage it was the untruth.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right, thank you, let's proceed.  Now you see, in answer to the Chairman, His Lordship asked you -"Why didn't you claim privilege?"
And I don't remember the precise terms of your answer, but this question of privilege must have been in the forefront of your mind because on page 567, this is the very next page, on top of the page, you actually claimed privilege for the Athlone Bomb incident and the Apie project.  Now tell us, why was this in the forefront of your mind, and you claimed privilege, but you lied about Omar and Evans?

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you answer, just for record purposes, at page 1567, paragraph (h) is the reference there.

MR VERSTER: I have answered that.  There's a specific reason for that because Gen Webb and myself had a dispute that was unsolved.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, that's not correct, because you don't only speak about the bomb, you also speak about the Apie incident and the Apie incident as far as we've heard up to now, was not a matter of dispute between you and Gen Webb.  The question is, if the question of privilege was uppermost in your minds, why did you not avail of this right available to you that was not available to your victims whom you sentenced them to death?  Why didn't you avail yourself of that right?

MR VERSTER: Because the circumstances of the Commission and what they were busy with I did not trust and because there had been a dispute between myself and Gen Webb and it was not solved at the time that the Commission met, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos.  The pure monitoring of a person, be it Mr Bruce White or Mr Dullah Omar, would that be an offence in any way?  Just the monitoring, forget about anything beyond the monitoring.  So there wouldn't be any need to claim privilege just to monitor somebody.  I mean you just follow the person, watch where he goes, make some notes, there's no offence as far as I can see, unless of course that involves bugging telephones etcetera, which might constitute in certain circumstances, an invasion of privacy.

MR VERSTER: Yes, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: But normal monitoring is not an offence.

MR VERSTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that why you didn't claim privilege for those, because you just restricted it to monitoring?

MR VERSTER: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  You see your line about Omar and Evans, far from helping your colleagues sitting behind you who were actually responsible for this and who had made statements to this effect, you were really letting them down for your benefit, that you were not guilty of anything, you only told them to monitor these two, but knowing that they had gone further and attempted to conspire to murder, you were denying it and thereby leaving them in the lurch.  Is there anything wrong with that statement, or did it occur to you that that was the effect of your lying?

MR VERSTER: Mr Bizos, your attempt does not impress me at all.  In fact I can say that at that point it was the other way around, the fact that members of the region acted in a certain manner in which they were not allowed to act, the fact that certain statements and reports in the media started appearing, and at that time I reasoned that these members were busy turning against the management, that these members were possibly busy with an attempt to speak to Gen Badenhorst, to speak to Krappies Engelbrecht and to turn around and say that they didn't want to do any of these things but one person kept on telling them to do everything.  And there are many contradictions that I in good faith accepted later and that I later realised that these people tried really hard, and at least we tried to turn this around so that we could improve the situation.  And that is why I'm sitting here today, to arrive at that point.  So this attempt to play for the audience and to ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me assure you, Sir, that I have no intention whatsoever of impressing you, my questions are directed in order to be able to argue at the end that you are a witness who cannot be believed.  Now did you know that His Lordship Mr Justice Harms, was appointed to hear the truth?

MR VERSTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You knew that in relation to Omar and Evans, your subordinates had told the truth, that there was a conspiracy and/or an attempted murder of the two of them, is that correct?

MR VERSTER: Yes, but I did not at that stage know all the circumstances.