Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

MR POTGIETER: In fact, in fact the evidence is quite clear that the one soldier that was shot and killed was shot by his fellow soldiers, he was shot by one of the CDF members, there is no doubt about that.  We have got that testimony, we have bot the ballistics reports, everything, do you accept that?

UNKNOWN: I find it very difficult to accept that.  Because Mr Chairman let me put it this way ...(Interruption by screaming of woman in the audience)

BONGANI FINCA: Please keep quiet.  We know that you are all frustrated, please bear with us.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much.  We appreciate your cooperation.  Brigadier I would like to just get this point crisply finished.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman if one of the soldiers was shot by one of the soldiers, it may have meant one thing, the soldiers hated each other, how else would they shoot ...(intervention)

MR POTGIETER: Or they were bad shots.  You were saying that they were inexperienced in your testimony here.

UNKNOWN: Inexperienced in dealing with a crowd of that nature Mr Chairman.  They have been deployed all over the Ciskei wherever there was unrest.  At some stages even the police, people said we think better when you call in the soldiers because at least they can stand and make sure that we are safe.   So they were experienced to an extent.  But if it was a soldier shooting another soldier from behind in a line of deployment where other soldiers were looking, soldiers are very, very protective of each Mr Chairman, that would have come out, not only through reporters but it would have come out from the army itself.

MR POTGIETER: Well as I have put to you earlier, and it's not going to help very much for us to debate it between the two of us, I've just put it to you that expert ballistic testimony presented to this Commission at its previous sitting on this incident had indicated quite clearly that the soldier was shot and killed by the calibre gun that was used by your force, there is no doubt about that.

UNKNOWN: Sir that cannot prove exclusively that that gun was handled by a soldier.  So many of these guns were stolen.

MR POTGIETER: So you mean it could have been one of the crowd?

UNKNOWN: It could be, and I don't believe that any such action could have taken place even before - I am told, I don't know, but I am told that the soldier fell before anything else happened.

MR POTGIETER: Now let's just test the factual situation here because you don't seem to be suggesting that you do believe that this is true, this statement,
"The Ciskeian soldier was shot and killed and the rush continued at the troops".
Is there any truth in that?

UNKNOWN: Oh well I was not there Mr Chairman.  I know what I was told.  I know that there was a lot of debate around that, and I know all these ballistics and other experts called in, I am prepared to accept what the court or whoever decides finally because I am, in this situation, I am - I don't even want to make a speculation, it's very dangerous because one never knows what is the truth until it has been tested and re-tested.

MR POTGIETER: Now just the second leg of the allegation.
"Handgrenades were slung from within the crowd".
is that true?

UNKNOWN: Again Mr Chairman this is the impression that was given to the officers who came and made a report-back. They had also information which was to the effect that there was a car which was seen at a certain area distributing weapons.  That information, whether it was tested and whether it was true, whether I believe it or not really depends on whether it was there, and no one knows it was there.

MR POTGIETER: Ja.  So you can't say for a fact that handgrenades were slung from the crowd, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: This is what I was told and this I am reporting exactly what I was told.

MR POTGIETER: And you can't say whether that is true or not?

UNKNOWN: No I cannot.

MR POTGIETER: So just to round off this one point, the facts on which you have based your opinion that the CDF soldiers were acting defensively in nature is based on facts which you can't say is true, you don't believe the truth of it, necessarily?

UNKNOWN: This is what was also confirmed by - I never talked to the soldiers who were called to the Commission, the juniors, except only their seniors who came to report to the Security Council, but when I heard even junior officers disclosing to the Commission that they felt they were being shot at and they asked for permission through a radio communication to General Olshig and after he, according to his evidence here, after he asked about two or three times whether are you really under fire, and they repeatedly confirmed that positive, we are under fire.  So only taking that scenario into consideration gives me what I had to work on.

MR POTGIETER: Alright, I understand the basis of your opinion.  Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Brigadier I hope your legal advisor won't interfere with the question I am going to ask before I proceed.  Are you on medication currently?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you.  I'd like to refer you to page 4 and page 6 of your document.  The first paragraph, line 3 on page 4.
"I felt that as head of government at the time I felt that I could not simply sit back and allow mass action to terrorise people in the name of democracy or the struggle".
And on page 6, second paragraph, line 4,
"The gist of propaganda was that the ANC alliance was giving people a last chance to be saved if they joined in the march against me, failing which they would be rejected or even killed".
From these two statements and throughout your submission it 
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
O GQOZO
is pretty clear that you wanted to protect the people in the Ciskei at all costs, am I correct?

UNKNOWN: You are correct.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Did you see the two women who collapsed and left this room?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Can you identify them at all?

UNKNOWN: Ma'am I didn't look back.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Brigadier may I ask you to just cast your eyes to the second, third and fourth rows, just scan...(tape ends), second, third and fourth rows.  These are either victims, survivors or their families, do you recognise any of them?

UNKNOWN: No.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you Counsel for not interfering.  My question is soon after the massacre you in fact issued one or two press statements, am I correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes you are correct Ma'am.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: You were in control or in power for about two years after the massacre, about I say, you cared so much about the people in the Ciskei, am I correct in assuming then that you reached out to the families of the deceased and the families of the injured?  Now when I say reach out I am talking about not necessarily personally reach out but perhaps reach out by correspondence, telephone call, some kind of reaching out that would demonstrate and be consistent with your utterances that you really cared about the people in the Ciskei.

UNKNOWN: Thank you through you Chairman, no I didn't.  Can I say - I don't want to justify why I didn't but perhaps if I say one word perhaps you could understand
...(intervention)