Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-02

MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that any order which you carried 
out, was in direct compliance with the authority structure in the 
security police?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you act in a bona fide manner?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times believe that your conduct 
was promoting the objectives of your employer?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And that it enjoyed the approval of your 
employer?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Even though these actions were illegal?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you benefit personally from this Motherwell 
incident?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you know the victims?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you entertain any personal malice against 
these victims?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You are applying for amnesty, on page 179 of 
the application for all common law crimes and offences which may 
arise from the Motherwell incident, as well as conspiracy to commit 
murder and being an accomplice to murder and any other civil 
damages which may arise from this.

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr 
Chairperson, Hugo on behalf of Mr De Kock.  Mr Vermeulen, can 
you recall whether Mr Nieuwoudt was present at Vlakplaas when Mr 
De Kock gave you the order?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Can you tell us what the precise purport was of the 
motive explained to you by Mr De Kock, the motive for the 
operation?

MR VERMEULEN: That there were members in the PE security 
branch who had been causing problems and that an operation had to 
be carried out in Port Elizabeth.

MR HUGO: Did Mr De Kock at any stage indicate an Askari or 
Askaris?

MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall there were three people 
and an askari.

MR HUGO: Yes, but the question is; did Mr De Kock use the word 
Askari or Askaris when he told you about the problems these people 
were causing?

MR VERMEULEN: I can't answer that because I can't remember it 
well.  As far as I can recall, I am sure that the word Askari was 
used.

MR HUGO: And are you saying that Mr De Kock told you that 
these people were in the process of going over to the ANC or had 
already done so?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions.

MR BOOYSENS: No questions, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: No questions, Mr Chairman, on behalf of Snyman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: VAN RENSBURG  Mr Chairman, maybe I should just 
come on record to say on behalf of applicant Ras there is also no 
questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I apologise, I overlooked you, I'm 
sorry. Yes, thank you.

MR FORD: Thank you, Mr 
Chairman, for and on behalf of Mrs Mgoduka and Mrs Faku.  Mr 
Vermeulen, do I understand your evidence to be that your colleagues 
during the preparation stages in Port Elizabeth, deliberately 
confused you or misled you with regard to the identities of those 
participating, was that the effect of your evidence?

MR VERMEULEN: No, the evidence is that they misled us by not 
finding the proper venue where the car was prepared.

MR FORD: I see.  So you were aware at all times of all of those 
involved in the preparation of the bomb in the motor vehicle, by 
whom the motor vehicle was brought, et cetera?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR FORD: Was Mr Lotz at any stage present?

MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, I have never seen him at the 
scene.

MR FORD: Now you have suggested in your evidence that if you 
did not carry out this order, there was a real chance of you losing 
your work and also that you could be eliminated?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: What brought you to that conclusion, Mr Vermeulen?

MR VERMEULEN: At that stage I was involved in lots of 
operations before that, and I know about a lot of sensitive 
information.

MR FORD: Now you heard Mr De Kock's evidence of the 
relationship which he had with his men and which he stated quite 
clearly that what his attitude would have been if one of his men had 
felt unable to participate in a certain operation?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR FORD: If I understood his evidence it was that it may have led 
to - certainly not a question of elimination of that person, he may 
have been less readily promoted, but there is no question of him 
being eliminated, just because he didn't feel capable of participating 
in a special operation?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, it is not necessarily that 
elimination would have come from Mr De Kock.  The senior people 
higher above could have decided something like that.

MR FORD: Did you ever have any reason to suspect that if you had 
declined to participate in this operation, Mr De Kock wouldn't just 
have appointed somebody else in your place?

MR VERMEULEN: He could have, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: Were you - happy is not the appropriate word, but you 
were ready to participate at all times?  Did you have any hesitation 
about this operation?

MR VERMEULEN: No, I didn't have any hesitations.

MR FORD: Why not?

MR VERMEULEN: Because when I received orders from my 
seniors, I always tried to comply, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: The point I am trying to make, Mr Vermeulen, is that 
you obeyed this order, not because you were afraid of being 
eliminated, but because that was the way you operated.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR FORD: And I am putting it to you then, Mr Vermeulen, that 
your suggestion that there was a real possibility of you being 
eliminated in these circumstances, is just not correct.

MR VERMEULEN: No, I won't say that.

MR FORD: Just give me a moment, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, Mr 
Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR CORNELIUS: Only one question, 
thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Vermeulen, you obeyed the order 
because you simply had no choice?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: And depending on the breach of your security 
measures, that will depend what type of action will be taken against 
you?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may step down, Mr Vermeulen.

MR VERMEULEN: Thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: 420

N J VERMEULEN: PORT ELIZABETH HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR HUGO: 430

MR FORD: 433

MR CORNELIUS: 434