Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR AMEEN: Not a problem sir.  Page 11, point 12.c.  If prosecution followed, on which charge - now you've mentioned five counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder.  Now we know that of the five counts of murder the one relates to a security guard which is not a subject of this enquiry, so that's four counts of murder and two of attempted murder.  There were two other people that you tried to kill, they were part of the group that you brought there and yet in your statement you made this material mistake, call it that.  I'm putting it to you that you were actually - while you were alone drafting this letter, your state of mind was that you did not want to be fully open with this commission, with this committee.  You've spent a fair amount of time on the political background and a little bit on the incident itself and at the end of that letter you say that you are prepared to tender your apology.  You don't do that.  You are willing to meet the family, but the apology is not contained here.  To me it shows a state of mind where you haven't really acknowledged the extent of your wrong doing.  On evidence you have given before this commission, I put it to you that you really haven't understood the purpose of this application.

MR MALAN: Mr Ameen, with respect, it's not necessary to be sorry in order to get amnesty, it's necessary to make a full disclosure.

MR AMEEN: I withdraw that Mr Malan.
	The last point that I want to raise ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Ameen don't you want an answer to what you've just put to the witness, to the applicant?

MR AMEEN: If he will answer, yes.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, let him answer.

MR AMEEN: Thank you advocate.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson can I please read the last paragraph of my statement?  I think this paragraph will respond to Mr Ameen's question.  This is how it stands, I will read it in English:  "I want deeply and sincerely regret the incident because precious human life was lost in line with the objective of the TRC it is for this reason that I made a voluntary disclosure for the exact truth to be known.  I am ready and truthfully willing to meet the family of the deceased to tender my apology.  I've made a mistake and the paragraph that I want to respond is about this one.  I think the committee has that.

ADV SIGODI: Yes I would like to get your response in relation to your application on page 11.  In fairness to you, were you not charged with the - before you left the country in the indictment with four murders and two attempted murders.  You had seen the indictment before you left, you appeared in court, had you appeared in court before you left?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes I appeared before the court.

ADV SIGODI: Had you been charged when you left?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: These counts, the counts that appeared here made us go to the court.

ADV SIGODI: I see because from what we have, it's four counts of murder and two counts of attempted murder in the indictment that we've got on page 28.  And then you also add the security so perhaps is that why you put five counts of murder and two counts of attempted murder in your application, in the formal application, in the form?  Can you look at your form, the one you submitted to the TRC.  It was paragraph 12.c, page 11 of the said bundle.  Page 11.  Because Mr Ameen I don't know if I misunderstood you, you should have implied that he put five counts of murder and two counts of attempted murder if he was involved in all of them simultaneously, I thought that was the impression you gave to the committee, I just wanted to clarify that for the record.

MR AMEEN: No, the five counts of murder includes the security guard and that's not part of this hearing.  So that's four count of murder for this hearing and two counts of attempted murder, six people were involved.  What I am saying is that he saying that there were only four people in his letter, he only makes reference to four people.

ADV SIGODI: Is that the discrepancy that you are trying to show?

MR AMEEN: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just follow up on that.  When did you learn for the first time Mr Mphoreng that two people had survived the shooting, because I take it that you were under the impression that all six were dead?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I heard in Protea when we were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: So this information on page 16, you got it from - did you get it from your comrades or is it personal observation that people, some of them when they were seen in the vicinity of Orlando East and the like?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: This is the information I got from the comrades.

MR AMEEN: Thank you.  Right Mr Mphoreng I just want to go back to the assault and the division of the groups into three, into two different bedrooms.  You were with one group of people, right ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you do that I'm going to ask you, of your survivors where were they, in which group were they?

MR AMEEN: I'm coming to that Mr Chairman, the survivors were in another group, were in Hlasa's group right, but I've just been instructed that there was movement inbetween, interchange, that the applicant's were moving from one group to another, that they did not confine themselves to one group and that is what I want to put to him and I want to put to him certain other atrocities that he has (indistinct) committed.  Right, I put it to you earlier and I'm repeating that, that in your group at the start there was Msilana, Mbulelo and Oscar, all of whom are deceased and that in Mr Hlasa's group, the first applicant, there were the two survivors and Vuyani.  I also now want to put it to you that there was movement of people assaulting from one group to another and that you were one of the people that was moving from one group to another and that in the course of this moving from one room to another room during the assault, you used a plier on the genitals, on the private parts of these youths, including the two survivors and that you used it in such a way to cause them pain and degradation.  Do you admit this, because that is what they will say?

CHAIRPERSON: Who, him as an individual used the pliers?

MR AMEEN: As well as the others but him particularly, I'm directing the question to him.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson I agree we used brutal ways to get information from these people.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is not whether you used brutal ways, the question is did you use pliers?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: A used a pair of pliers.

MR AMEEN: Explain to this committee why you did not disclose that in your evidence today, in your evidence yesterday, anywhere in your application?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did not mention yesterday but I admit that I used a pliers, a pair of pliers.

MR AMEEN: Is there anything else that you have not disclosed that you may want to disclose?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not recall anything.

MR AMEEN: That is all from me Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No before you leave that, Mr Mphoreng I think the previous question was why did you not disclose this yesterday and today, why?  In other words he wants an explanation, Mr Ameen wants an explanation as to why yesterday and today you did not tell us about this, the use of a pair of pliers.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I cannot explain well why I did not mention it yesterday but I admit though that I used a pair of pliers.

CHAIRPERSON: Who else used that pair of pliers to torture the victims?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I was with comrade (?) Nani and comrade Kabelo.  Now there is a possibility that they also used a pair of pliers.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying there's a possibility?  Are you saying that you don't remember whether they used it?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I'm saying I do not remember whether they used it but I did.