Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-15

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Mama.  It is a very difficult story that and a hard story that you told and you have told it in quite a lot of detail and your statement is also quite comprehensive.  I would just want to ask you just a few questions which will, are you okay Mama?

CHAIRPERSON: You may take your time Mrs Morudu and when you are ready you may continue.

RUSSELL ALLY: If you would, if you prefer not to continue just say so.  We could always ask you the questions later.  It is your decision.  If you want to continue we can continue, if you do want to, please tell us, but do not feel that you have to stay up here on the podium.  Sorry, I did not hear that.  Would you like to continue or.

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: No, I am through.

RUSSELL ALLY: And would you mind if I asked you a few questions?  Would that be okay?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: You may ask questions.  I will answer those I can answer.

RUSSELL ALLY: The first question I want to ask is about Junior, Junior Makwere who you say was the last person to be with Moss.  How can we contact Junior because you seem to think that he may have some information.  Do you have an address for him or some way we can contact him that you could give to us?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: Yes, I will be able to look for that address, but I do not have it with me now.

RUSSELL ALLY: If we can have, if we can have that address.  Also you say that Moss skipped the country, but then you also say that Junior told the police that he went to Cape Town.  Now, do you ...

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: No Sir.  I said the police detained Junior
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Makwere and when they detained him they told him about Moss.  They said to me, maybe he said to them he did not know where Moss was, but they said to him we are waiting together with Moss.  I do not know whether they were searching for information from him, but they told him that they were together with Moss and Moss is in Cape Town.  That is what they told him.

RUSSELL ALLY: So the police were saying to Junior that Moss was actually working with them now, that he was an informer?  Is that what they were trying to say to Junior and that he was working for them in Cape Town?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: May you please repeat your question Sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: I just want to be very clear on what you are saying.  You saying that the police who were interrogating Junior, they said to him that Moss was working for them in Cape Town.  That is what the police said.

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: Yes, they said they were working together with Moss.  That is when they detained Junior and they said to him Junior was in Cape Town at that time.  Moss did not tell me this.  I heard this from Junior.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did you ever try to contact the ANC to ask them if they had any knowledge of Moss?  If it was the case that he had skipped the country?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: Yes.  Moss Tjikanie once took me to Johannesburg to the ANC offices.  When we got there we met Mr Sisulu and I told him my case and he asked me for a photo and I had a photo at that time and he said, okay, we will investigate.  If at all Moss arrived there I will send him to you so that he would tell him, but Moss never came to me.  Thereafter my daughter who was in Johannesburg went to Shell House. When she got there she had a photo with here.  They
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searched from the computers and they said Moss is not there.  He had never arrived in Lusaka or whether it was Tanzania, I am not sure.  That is why we do not know whether Moss has skipped the country or whether Moss is still in Cape Town where the police said he was.  We do not know where he is because from the ANC we were told by my, I was told by my two daughters who was also, one of them was also working at Shell House and she tried to investigate where Moss was, but she could not come up with anything.  There were not even any signals of whether he had skipped the country or not.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.  You know, this case of your husbands, he was attacked while he was guarding the building or property of a Mr Khambule.  Was there ever a police investigation into this whole event?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: They only came up to take names, but they did nothing thereafter.

RUSSELL ALLY: And on this site where your husband was attacked was anything stolen from that building site because he was asked to look after the site because Mr Khambule was apparently concerned that people were stealing things?  Now the next day when your husband was actually found there, had anything been stolen from the site?  Do you know?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: No, I do not know anything about things that were stolen.

RUSSELL ALLY: And Japie who was accused, did you see speak to Japie about this and what did, what was Japie's account?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: I called Japie by myself because Khambule had said the tape mentioned Japie's name, that is the tape recording.  I asked Japie what he knows and he said he knew nothing.  I said I was surprised to hear that Mr Morudu had been injured in that very same house.  I was surprised
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because I had agreed with Mr Morudu that we are not anymore going to work for Mr Khambule.  Japie also said he could not do that because Mr Khambule been taking care of him whilst he was growing up.  He grew up together with this son of mine.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just one or two more questions.  You mention in your statement, you give the name Gerald who Moss had an appointment with.  Who was this Gerald and how would we be able to contact Gerald?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: Gerald was Moss's friend.  That is what I told the police when they came to harass us at the house.  I told them that Terry was not Moss's friend and I told them that Gerald was Moss's friend.  He was staying in the eastern side of the township.  I do not know what his address was.  Maybe the boys might help to find Gerald's address.  That is the one guy I knew as Moss's friend because he use to visit at home.

RUSSELL ALLY: Please, yes, if you could also with a contact address for Junior, if you could also assist us to try and get hold of Gerald because he may also be able to shed some light on some of these events.  Thank you very much Mama.

CHAIRPERSON: Wynand.

MR MALAN: Mrs Morudu, I have only one question.  You say that after the attack your husband's speech was impaired and he died in October which is some six, seven months later.  Is that correct?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: Yes, it is so.

MR MALAN: Did you ever ask your husband whether he saw his attacker or attackers that night he was hit with the axe?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: Yes, I asked him, but he did not see them.  He does not even know what happened because he had no torch
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light on him.  He could not even see those people, he did not know who they were.

MR MALAN: And he did not know whether it was one or two or ten?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: No, he did not.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Morudu, may I ask you about your own personal circumstances at the moment.  How old are you?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: I am 65 years old.

PROF MEIRING: And are you living with your children at the moment?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: Yes, the others have their own families.

PROF MEIRING: How many children do you have.

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: They are six together with Moss.

PROF MEIRING: Are you still working or are the children looking after you?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: I did not look after my children to take care of me because they had responsibilities to their families.  At present at least they are still taking care of me, but they also have to have their own families.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.