Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

MR WESSELS: How did you see that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Upon a previous occasion I have testified before the Committee.  If I just tell you how Mr Verster acted with regard to the enquiries that he made and the fact that it was clear, whether by his own initiation or whatever the motivation was, he was certainly not going to take responsibility for this.  That was my inference.

MR WESSELS: When did you realise this, the day after Webster's murder?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Among others, yes, and during subsequent meetings.

MR WESSELS: The day after Webster's murder there was a co-ordination meeting during which enquiries were made during this meeting by Staal Burger and the Co-ordinator, I accept, where they said that Joe Verster wanted to know whether any of you were involved with Webster.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

MR WESSELS: On the grounds that it appeared as if he didn't know?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And you realised automatically that it was strange that he was asking these questions because he was the one who issued the order in terms of Mr Barnard.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it was strange because we worked internally and he had the position to be able to say to Mr van Zyl: "If another bomb goes off I'll hold you responsible."  In other words, if it were to happen again he could say to Mr van Zyl: "Look I told you, look what's happened."  We were under pressure to perform internally and he was getting people from the outside to come and operate in our regions.

MR WESSELS: We are quite far away from the bomb.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I'm just trying to assist you.

MR WESSELS: We are dealing with the day after you and Barnard shot Webster dead.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I'm using a hypothesis.

MR WESSELS: And then you have this person who comes to the organisation, who was supposed to have given the order to Mr Barnard directly, and he starts making enquiries with your cell members to try to determine who was involved.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I found it strange.

MR WESSELS: It was rather strange, isn't that so?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: What did you think was going on?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I didn't know what Mr Verster's objective with such enquiries was, it unnerved me to a great extent.

MR WESSELS: It must have shocked you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, it did.

MR WESSELS: Because now you found yourself involved in a crime for which one could receive capital punishment and this was the first crime that you had committed.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: You were an innocent rookie civilian who became involved with this organisation and the first thing that you did for the organisation was to commit this murder under instruction, allegedly.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was with Brixton Murder and Robbery and the Security Branch where I functioned in State relation and I still regarded my work as State related.

MR WESSELS: Yes, but you didn't commit crimes before this time Mr Botha, isn't that so?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did not regard it as a crime per se, this deed pertaining to Dr Webster.

MR WESSELS: No, we are still before that point, before you arrived there you had not committed any crimes, that was your evidence, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And now your first action in the CCB is to commit a murder.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Which I did not necessarily interpret as a crime.  Yes, my answer is yes.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, do you really want to say that you didn't know that what you were doing there was a crime?  Whether it was an instruction from a State organisation or not, did you really think that the State could not give an order for you to commit a murder which wouldn't be a crime?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: From the nature of the framework in which I operated, it was stipulated to me that this was part of our activities.

MR WESSELS: But Mr Botha, you functioned within this organisation and you were told that the organisation would protect you and you believed that you would not be prosecuted, that things would happen behind the scenes to prevent that the A-G would prosecute you, but you knew that you were committing a crime.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: A crime without any prosecution, yes.

MR WESSELS: Yes, nonetheless you knew it was a crime.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, but I have just explained my definition of crime to you, within my own context, from within my own framework.

MR LAX: Just on a point of clarification.  The Early Learning Centre was on the 31st of August, Webster was later than that.

MR WESSELS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR LAX: 1st of May, sorry.  Thank you, I was just getting confused there.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, the day after the incident you found out what was going on, you must have been extremely concerned regarding what was happening.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I was.

MR WESSELS: Did it not occur to you that perhaps Mr Barnard had lied to you, that this instruction had never come from Joe Verster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I testified yesterday with regard to Mr van Zyl's integrity pertaining to the issue of instructions or the execution of a project, so too I did not doubt Mr Barnard's integrity, I accepted what he told me.

MR WESSELS: My question to you is whether at that stage you didn't doubt or think that Mr Barnard had lied to you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was doubting many things.

MR WESSELS: Did you consider it as a possibility that Barnard may have lied to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That as well as the fact that Mr Verster himself initiated the thing and didn't want to link the organisation to it.

MR WESSELS: And now you found yourself between the devil and the deep blue sea, because whatever happened you were being crushed to pieces among these great millstones, because you didn't know if Barnard had lied to you and if he had lied to you, you acted beyond the parameters of the organisation and then you would not enjoy the protection of the organisation, isn't that so Mr Botha?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The organisation has not protected anybody to this very day, firstly, and secondly, ...(intervention)

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha ...

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Let me just finish because you asked me a question.  At the time of the instruction which was given to Mr Barnard, I believed unconditionally that it was indeed the instruction.  I had no reason during the execution of the instruction to doubt this at all.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, return the 2nd of May 1989, during a cell meeting you hear that the person who issued the instruction allegedly wants to know who was involved in this crime, this murder.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.  Not directly, indirectly.

MR WESSELS: Yes.  And you must have started to doubt, or at least to think that "either Mr Verster was busy spinning an awesome web of intrigue or Mr Barnard lied to me."

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Many options came to mind.

MR WESSELS: Yes, they must have occurred to you.  And if Mr Barnard had lied to you, then you would be standing beyond the framework of the organisation and you would have quite a big problem at hand because you wouldn't enjoy the protection of the organisation, isn't that so Mr Botha?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If you express it as such, then yes.

MR WESSELS: And if it wasn't the case and it was indeed Mr Verster who was busy with some sinister motive and who was no making enquiries, there would also be a rather big problem for you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: So you must have been a very worried man at that point in time, isn't that so?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And you realised that what you had done went beyond the rules of the organisation, isn't that so?