Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: When I got to the corner there was a group of people charging in a way with spears and they were a motley group not organised without any escort coming towards my direction in a diagonal way from De Villiers.  Now there's an impediment in King George so these people came at a diagonal angle towards me - they did not spread across King George.

MR TIPP: You say that before you actually reached the corner you heard sounds of shooting?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That is correct.

MR TIPP: Did you have any idea where the shots were coming from?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No, they came from the King George area so I have no idea.

MR TIPP: Now when you got to the corner and you saw this crowd coming towards your position, what else did you hear, see and then what did you do?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Well when I got to the King George area, to that corner there was firing but when I got there what appeared to me at that stage was that this crowd was firing at me, in my direction.  When I got to the corner there was general firing and then I took up position and I was in a prone position, I pointed my arm towards that I had seen that way and Mr Kruser gave the order repel and that's when I started firing.

MR TIPP: Is it correct that Mr Kruser and other personnel were already at the corner by the time that you got there?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I can't recall very well but I know Mr V.J. Rama and Mr Kruser but I can't really pinpoint because I lost all images of where people were placed at that time.

MR TIPP: You then fired on Mr Kruser's instruction, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: After the repel command I fired three shots.

MR TIPP: And where did you aim those shots, where did you direct them?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I directed my shooting at the crowd at the surging crowd and I shot towards the bottom half of them.  That's where I aimed.

MR TIPP: Mr Singaram, what gave you the impression that the crowd was shooting in your direction?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: The sounds, I must say that the situation at that time was highly charged and hearing these gunfire but the main thing that made me feel that they were shooting at me was the way they were charging in an attack fashion.

MR TIPP: At that time what did you think was the intention of the crowd?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Well, at that time all I could think of was that if these people overrun me and last line of defence then Shell House would be under attack - the women, children and the leadership within Shell House would be eliminated.

MR TIPP: You say Mr Singaram that you fired three shots?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That is correct.

MR TIPP: Why did you only fire three shots why not more

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: While I was in that position and I was firing I was nudged by someone running ahead of me and when they took up positions in front of me there was no way I could continue and besides I was not part of the security of Shell House at that time, I never was.

MR TIPP: After you were nudged out of the way what did you do?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I retreated back to the foyer of Shell House to calm people down who were very agitated and very worried about what was happening.

MR TIPP: Mr Singaram you know now about the ballistic evidence and the medical evidence which was presented at the inquest, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That is correct.

MR TIPP: And you now also that there is no ballistic evidence of any shots having been fired from the marchers at the south western corner of Shell House?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That I do concede that the medical evidence, the ballistics does not support some of the statements that I've made how I saw it at that day, that is correct.

MR TIPP: What explanation do you have for that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: It's very difficult because in such a situation that so electrifying, so highly charged that you in that situation of seconds you lose account of where you are and when you're hearing firing and you see people surging it clouds the way you are seeing things.

MR TIPP: Can you tell the Committee in you own words Mr Singaram, why it is that you are today here applying for amnesty?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I am applying for amnesty because I feel that if someone else had been in my position he may not have seen that group surging as a group who were firing but I'm mortal and the way I saw it at that time, I saw this crowd surging with the firing around me I felt it came from that crowd and therefore fearing for my life and the safety of the ANC an it's personnel, I shot back and I feel that with the ballistic evidence and the medical evidence I may have exceeded the bounds of self defence.  Thank you.

MR TIPP: What medical evidence do you refer to?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That many of the persons had been shot in the back or the side.

MR TIPP: Do you concede the possibility that you may have gone too far in firing the number of shots that you did?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: With hindsight that may be the case.

MR TIPP: And how do you feel about that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Well I regret any deaths involved because all my life I've sacrificed my life for the country, for democracy and I hate killing but people have been traumatised from that morning, other people have been killed during that day and certainly the marchers were not on a Sunday picnic.

MR TIPP: Mr Singaram, at the time of the shooting, did you have any thoughts about what would happen if you had been overrun, as you've testified and if people within the ANC within Shell House had been killed?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No there's many scenarios that one could build up but one of them would be that the elections would have been severely jeopardised and would have impacted in various ways if people, this group, had taken over Shell House, kept people hostages with other parts of marchers, training in, that would have created chaos in the country.  Even townships would have gone up in fire so that was very, very dear to me for whatever I've sacrificed in my life.

MR TIPP: Mr Singaram, it's been suggested, you've heard already to the first two applicants that the guards shot at the crowd just out of a deep seated intolerance for the fact that the members of the crowd were from an opposing political party.  Do you have any comment on that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Well I would like to put it into context that the ANC never hated the IFP, Inkatha was formed with the blessings of the ANC and the ANC has been the most reluctant liberation movement to use arms and this is testament to signing the Geneva Convention, this is why one of the first liberation movements to sign the Geneva Convention was the ANC, I was part of that debate in the Cannes.  Now this is what's quite remorseful to me that if it appears that we shot people in the back that's not the way we guerilla fighters behave.

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Singaram.  Chairperson I have no more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

MR VAN WYK: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll start here.

MR VAN WYK: Mr Singaram, do you know a person with the name of Yusuf Nagdi?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Pardon?

MR VAN WYK: Do you know a person with the name of Yusuf Nagdi?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No I don't.

MR VAN WYK: Have you ever seen such a person?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No.

MR VAN WYK: Why I'm asking you this, your documents portend that that was a Commission of Oath of your statements and you haven't seen him is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: With due respect Honourable Chair, this is a trick question.  Now if I go with one of my lawyers to go and sign a Commission of Oath, you know I go there the person puts his stamp and now I find this very - I take exception to such a question because...[intervention}

CHAIRPERSON: Now you see there's no point in taking any exception to the question, the question is you signed before a Commissioner of Oaths and may not have known what his name was.