Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

M R NDLOVU: I tried putting this opinion forth to Tabani, that I wanted to approach this man.  Tabani said I shouldn't do it because if Mr Gumede discovers that I am close to him he may send some people to kill me because Tabani was well known in the Pietermartizburg area and if Gumede knew that I was Tabani's brother they could plot to kill me because Tabani was a wanted person in Pietermartizburg because of his IFP activities.  Therefore Tabani realised that I could be placing myself in danger if I approached Gumede.

MR LAX: Why didn't you just go to your IFP colleagues in the ZP of whom there were many and say we now know of one of our colleagues who are supplying the enemy with arms.  Let's set him up, let's catch him and let's prosecute him and thereby stop him.  You didn't have to kill him?  You could have set a nice trap for him.

M R NDLOVU: I would not have had the authority to do that because Tabani was the one who actually instructed me on what to do, I could have not communicated or contacted those IFP leaders.

MR LAX: I wasn't asking you to contact IFP leaders, I was suggesting you could have contacted IFP policemen.  Your colleagues in the police, in the ZP, who would have been very happy to catch a colleague who was supplying the enemy?

MR SIBANYONI: Where I was stationed at kwaMashu where we were deployed the people who were close to me with whom I had been trained and were also members of the IFP were not at my police station, they worked in different police stations.  I only worked with the people whom I had found at the station and I was not close to them and I did not know just how loyal they were to the IFP.  I could be telling somebody who was an ANC member.  If I did something like that I thought I could be placing myself in danger because I could be telling this information to the wrong person.

MR LAX: Well then why didn't you go to Wessels.  You knew he was neutral, you knew he was looking for firearms, he would be very happy?

M R NDLOVU: As I explained before, Wessel used to investigate weapons and we told him that he should go investigate the Kaluza area.

MR LAX: Why didn't you tell him to go and investigate the deceased?

M R NDLOVU: We did tell him to go and investigate in Kaluza because this person was said to be responsible for supplying weapons in Kaluza.  That was when he informed us that he had indeed uncovered a gun in Kaluza which meant that our information was correct.

M R NDLOVU: The point is, why didn't you tell him about the deceased, just give him his name and say this guy from kwaMashu is supplying.  What you've just told us about a weapon from kwaMashu, this must be your source.  You can easily catch him now, you've got a weapon from kwaMashu, here's the man, this is your man?  Instead you go and kill him, why?

M R NDLOVU: As I explained before we did inform Wessels that there was a person responsible for supplying weapons to the ANC, that is Mr Gumede and we asked them to trace this matter, we did explain it to him.

MR LAX: So why didn't you then give him a chance to do his job?  Instead you went and killed the man.

M R NDLOVU: When we realised that the situation was ongoing, people were suffering, people were killed and the houses were burnt down and we were also not safe and my home was on the boundary between the ANC and IFP area.  We realised that police sometimes took their time in investigating and we don't know even if they did investigate the matter.  We did not know how far Wessels was going to take the matter.  We therefore decided that this person should be attacked in order to stop this ongoing violence.

MR LAX: Chair, maybe we can take the tea adjournment now?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes alright, we'll take the tea adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: When we adjourned Mr Lax was still asking the witness some questions.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: (continues)  Thanks Chairperson.
	Mr Ndlovu, did you fill out any other forms for amnesty?

CHAIRPERSON: Besides the two that are in the bundle.
M. R. NDLOVU: (s.u.o.)  I think there were only two.

MR LAX: The reason I'm asking is that your form has a 1996 number and both these forms, if you look at page 5 you'll see the application number is 1632/96.  Both these forms are dated 1997 so in order for you to have a '96 number there must have been a prior form of some description.  Do you understand?

M R NDLOVU: Yes.

MR LAX: And I'm just wondering whether you remember whether you might have filled out another one or not.  It's not a trick question, it's easy to forget that you might have done another one before this.  It's just to help us get our papers right and for us to, if necessary, go and look at that other form and find it before we make a decision.

M R NDLOVU: These are the two forms that I filled in.  I was in Westville Prison and thereafter transferred to Pietermaritzburg and the second form was returned to me at the Pietermartizburg Prison and I had to depose to it at a Commissioner of Oaths.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I just want to bring your attention, perhaps it may be of some help that the first application, even if it was filled out in 1996, it was received on the 10th May 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just wondering how it got a '96 number.

MR LAX: Do you see the problem?

CHAIRPERSON: The application number is /96.

MR LAX: If you look at page 5 there's a reference number there, 1632/96.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless of course the person who entered the number made a mistake or wrote '96 instead of '97.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Still on page 5, there's an indication of - it doesn't say when it was written but we used to write by hand, 23rd July 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh well that explains it then.

MR LAX: So it could be that this hand-written form was received in '96, sent back for corrections and re-signature and then in the interim he did the '97?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...[inaudible]

MR LAX: Yes but in the interim the other form was done in '97.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the second form stated.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Commissioner, I know that some of the applications that I took to the Commission was not attested by the prison authorities, I think some of them went back.

MR LAX: Okay, I just wanted to clear it up so we didn't - we weren't left with a situation where there might be a third one and then we were deciding on only these two and not on a third one as well.
	Now you said in reply to a question by Mr Mpshe that your brother didn't tell you everything because you didn't think that he trusted you or you thought that maybe he didn't trust you.  Do you remember you said that?

M R NDLOVU: Yes I do remember.

MR LAX: Well if that is the case, why would he take you on this murder mission with him if he didn't trust you or he was a bit worried that you might talk about things and so on?

M R NDLOVU: He knew that I worked in Durban but he's at the kwaMashu Police Station and I knew the area whilst he didn't have enough information about the township.

MR LAX: Yes, the issue is if he didn't trust you why would he involve you, he might have got all the information from you but why would he involve you in a murder if he didn't trust you?  It's a very serious thing, a murder, you will agree with me on that?

M R NDLOVU: He does not mean that he did not trust me completely or maybe he mistrusted me completely.  The Mpumuza
area and the attacks on Mpumuza were well known issues and Sibonelo had given us information, he had given the information in my presence therefore he knew that I was aware of Mr Gumede's activities and because I worked at kwaMashua, I was in a better position to monitor and trace Mr Gumede and that is how he came to involve me at that time.

MR LAX: Now we understand from you now in your evidence under cross-examination that you were based at kwaMashu?

M R NDLOVU: That is so.

MR LAX: So did you know the deceased?