Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

MR MALAN: Your evidence is that for some reason, and I am still not sure why, you believed that this was an IFP group who came with some political motive against the ANC, for some reason you were convinced that this was not really merely a reprisal from Martin's sister and his friends or relatives, based on their suspicion that you killed Martin?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Can you tell me why you are satisfied that it was not some kind of mission of Martin's relatives and friends to firstly get the true facts about Martin's death and if getting it, to avenge his death?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The reason that I was not convinced is that Martin was not born and bred in that area, his only connection to the area was through Nococanya and when we questioned Nococanya and her family, they denied knowledge of this people and we also realised that these people were not even staying with Nococanya, they were staying at another home.  Another factor is that Martin had been buried for quite a while, and these people only came at that time.  If they had been, indeed been concerned with Martin's death, they could have come earlier than that.

MR MALAN: Why did they then come?  Why did they ask about Martin's arm?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I do not know.  As far as I am concerned, they had just come to launch an attack and they used Martin's death as an excuse, because they had already been caught, we had caught them.

MR MALAN: Sorry, and the attack, just to get the picture clear, this attack is now mounted by seven people of which one is Dudu, a woman, coming to an area where there is basically no political support to support them in such an attack.  Seven people come to attack you within a whole community, or attacking the community, apparently not you?  Let me withdraw that question, let me try and ask it differently.  Did you believe that they wanted to attack the community or attack you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I believed that they were out to attack me.

MR MALAN: Then, just lastly, why?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I thought that they had their own personal agenda's.  I am certain they also knew that I was an ANC member, who was a leader.

MR MALAN: But who has never been involved in any violence at that stage?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There was no violence in my area, only in the neighbouring areas.   When people from other areas came maybe to seek assistance from my area, they would approach me.  It was obvious that I was the leader.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv De Jager, do you have any questions to put to Mr Cele?

ADV DE JAGER: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, to your knowledge, to which political organisation did Bonny belong?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: As far as I know, I usually saw him with AmaSenora.

CHAIRPERSON: What is AmaSenora, did they belong to any publicly known political organisation?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They were affiliated to the IFP, but AmaSenora were a criminal gang.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, who in Amos Cele's house, was an IFP member?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Amos.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he occupying any particular office?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I do not know, but I would see him in the company of high ranking Officials in the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say high ranking Officials within the IFP, what are you referring to?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I am referring to people who were leaders in the area, IFP leaders just as I was an ANC leader in the community, that is how I knew them.

CHAIRPERSON: He was associating with the leadership, the local leadership of the IFP in the area?  Is that what you are saying?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Chairperson of the IFP in the area?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I did not know exactly who held what position, but I knew that they were in leadership positions because sometimes other IFP leaders from surrounding areas would come and they would approach them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware of Martin's death when it happened?  Martin Ngcobo's death?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I only heard about it when I returned from work, that he had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you first become aware of his death?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I first became aware on the day when his body was discovered, that is when I returned from work, on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately how many days or weeks before the visit by Dudu Ngcobo and her companions?  A week, two weeks?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It could have been two to three weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware at any given state before the visit by Dudu Ngcobo and her companions of Martin Ngcobo's funeral having taken place?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I knew that the funeral had taken place.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The people from Nococanya's home are my relatives.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you.  Mr Molohlanye, I've got to make sure that - Mr Molohlanye, emanating from the questions from the bench, do you have any re-examination that you intend doing on your witness?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No questions Madam Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE

CHAIRPERSON: That being so, is that the applicant's case?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you intend to call any further witnesses in support of this applicant's application?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I would like to call only one person who in connection with the death of Amos Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: That is an applicant.  I am talking about this applicant, in support of Mr Thulani Cele's application, do you intend to call any witnesses to support his application?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, you are hereby excused.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you just tell us, you are applying for amnesty in respect of, is it only the murder of Dudu?

MR MOLOHLANYE: No, Honourable member, I am applying for amnesty for the public violence.

CHAIRPERSON: The way I understand the issues that you are applying for are two acts, that is the public violence as well as the killing of Dudu Ngcobo.  Those are the only two acts for which Mr Thulani Cele seeks amnesty?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, those are the two grounds because on other ones, the death of Martin and Amos Cele, he still holds it as I said that he was not involved.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)  You are applying in respect of two acts, not grounds.  Mr Cele, we have already excused you, you may step down, unless of course there is something that you wish to say which your Counsel has omitted to give an indication to us that you would like to say.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I just wanted to explain that I seek amnesty for the murder of Dudu as well as public violence.  But I would also request the Committee to look into the other matters because I am also serving a sentence with regards to them, although I was not part of them.