Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

UNKNOWN: Now Matthews' evidence  was that that was the direction in which he was supposed to run.  Would that be more or less correct or is there something substantially wrong with that?

A J G ERWEE: I think it was a little bit more in a south-easterly direction, but it is approximately correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Now you were with Mike Bourne, you were with the Defence Force members, were there also members in the river bed itself?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, and their duty was that should there be an attempt to escape, to apprehend the members.  There was a Col Van Dyk.  His task was to write down the information notes and then to send the information to Pietersburg and headquarters and to active the information network.
	Just behind where Capt Mike Bourne was standing on the high ground, there was also a medical orderly from the Defence Force.  We security people did not have anything like that.  There was also a radio operator.  There were other Defence Force members also.

UNKNOWN: Now more or less how many Defence Force people were there on the scene, according to what you can remember?

A J G ERWEE: Between eight and 10.

UNKNOWN: Apart from Mike Bourne, were the others White and Black or were they only Whites or only Blacks?

A J G ERWEE: They were both ethnic groups, but there were more Black members than White members.

UNKNOWN: Is there anything else on the scene which is important?  Please continue.

A J G ERWEE: Mr Chairperson, the signals were given ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Oh, I'm sorry, where were you?  That is the most important question.

A J G ERWEE: I was in the Casspir.

UNKNOWN: With?

A J G ERWEE: The driver was a Defence Force member.  Then there was Capt Tokkie Fuchs, Supt Joggie Kruger, Snr Supt Swarts, Snr Supt Lourens Pretorius and myself.  If I remember correctly, we were five.

UNKNOWN: Plus the driver?

A J G ERWEE: Plus the driver.

UNKNOWN: Yes, you may continue.

A J G ERWEE: Mr Chairperson, the signal was given and there were whistles sounded and the Casspir drove off from its position and right across the road.  I must just say that it wasn't an even surface there.  The Casspir had to go down kind of a bank, probably as high a chair.  So we inside the Casspir were sitting on the ground and we were just clinging for support, because we were going quite fast.

UNKNOWN: How were you armed?  You people inside the Casspir?

A J G ERWEE: We were all armed as far as I can remember and we were officially issued with R1 rifles.

UNKNOWN: Any side arms?

A J G ERWEE: I was not carrying a side arm, some of the other members might have done so, pistols, et cetera. It is possible.

UNKNOWN: You drive off with quite a bit of speed.

A J G ERWEE: Yes, and we were off-balance as a result of this movement and as I was looking out of the window, I saw that the Kombi had not stopped where we had planned it to stop.

UNKNOWN: Tell me, Mr Erwee, the Committee members will forgive me if I ask you this.  Have you ever heard of a vehicle stopped exactly where you had planned it beforehand, that it would stop at a roadblock?  Will you please continue.

A J G ERWEE: Any way, as I said, we had to cling to retain our balance.  When the vehicle came to a stop I saw through the window that this vehicle hadn't stopped where they had planned it to stop, but it moved a little bit further forward.  I also saw that the nose of the vehicle was moving - was pointed in the direction of the bank.  In other words, not facing into the direction of the road exactly.  I saw that the right front door of the vehicle opened and that Matthews jumped out.  In the process he fell, because the vehicle wasn't quite stationary.  Then I heard a shout (Zulu words).  I then heard a shot.

UNKNOWN: Could you determine where the shot was coming from by the sound of it?

A J G ERWEE: I had to watch out for Capt Bourne to watch and wait for instructions. I heard the shot and I saw that the passenger in the left front seat,  fired a shot with a hand-arm while the door was a little bit open.  He fired one shot in the direction of Capt Mike Bourne. I saw Capt Mike Bourne falling down to the ground.  At that stage the five of us in the Casspir regained our balance and, as arranged, in case of shooting, we would fire back. We did not shoot through the hatch of the Casspir but from the roof.  Now in the process of standing up straight to be able to fire, I heard another short volley of automatic gun fire.  I do have some experience.  At that stage it sounded to me like a short volley from an AK-47.

UNKNOWN: What is the policy when members of the security forces establish and set up a road block?  What is the policy regarding setting your arms to automatic gun fire?

A J G ERWEE: It is normal practice to fire on single shots, to put our guns in that mode. Of course it is a pertinent instruction that we should not fire on automatic setting, because as soon as you set your arm to automatic setting, the barrel actually lifts and you don't have full control over the direction of your projectiles. So that would have meant that there would be an even greater danger to the life of Matthews Sehlwana as well as to the Defence Force members who were supposed to throw the teargas-grenade into the Kombi.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps there we should pause.  Mr Chairman, it may be a convenient stage for you to adjourn at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

A J G ERWEE: (Still under oath).

UNKNOWN: (cont): If I remember correctly we got to the point where you said after the single shot, you saw Bourne collapsing and whilst you were busy coming upright towards the roof of the Casspir you heard a volley of automatic gun fire.  You then explained that there were specific instructions that the members on the ground should not set their firearms to the automatic setting. What is the inference that you drew when you heard the volley of automatic firing?

A J G ERWEE: It was clear to me that this was a volley from an AK-47 gun.  I know the difference between an R1 and an AK-47. I know the difference in sound. It certainly did not come from the Casspir, because we were in any event not ready to fire.

UNKNOWN: So where did it come from?

A J G ERWEE: It came from the bus, the mini-bus.

UNKNOWN: Now you were on the point of saying that you were about to assume a standing position.

A J G ERWEE: Yes, when I came upright and saw from this raised roof, raised roof area, I saw the Kombi.  I noticed that there was smoke coming from the Kombi.  I assumed that that must be the teargas which was thrown into the mini-bus when it was brought to a halt.  I then immediately started firing at the passengers in the bus.  When I started firing all the members from the Casspir with me, also started firing.  How many shots each person fired I don't know, but I personally fired about a magazine and a half, it was about 20 to 30 shots into the Kombi.   The members in the Casspir with me also started firing.  It lasted a matter of seconds, and I then shouted "hold your fire".  The reason why I shouted that was because the teargas had started overwhelming us in the Casspir.

UNKNOWN: Had the teargas now drifted up to this little drift where you were in the Casspir?

A J G ERWEE: The mini-bus wasn't more than eight to 10 paces away from us. As I have already said, the vehicle didn't stop where it was supposed to. The reason for that was that we had made a mistake in our planning in not taking into consideration the gravity of the vehicle with the extra weight of the passengers and that caused the vehicle to move further forward. That caused a bit of confusion because where Capt Bourne and his two members had to appear on the left on the front of this high ground, they were now appearing virtually directly next to the left side of the vehicle.

UNKNOWN: In other words Bourne was very much closer to the Kombi as you had originally planned?