Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman we are in a position to call the second applicant, I don't know what the lunch arrangements are?

CHAIRPERSON: We don't propose to adjourn until 1 o'clock so we've got 20 minutes, we might as well ...

MR LANDMAN: I then call Joseph ...
MACHINE OFF

MR SANDI: Are you going to take an oath or an affirmation?

JOSEPH KGOELE: (Inaudible).

MR SANDI: Are you going to take an oath or an affirmation?

JOSEPH KGOELE: (sworn states)

MR LANDMAN: Mr Kgoele in 1987 were you a member of MK?

MR SANDI: Sorry Mr Landman I thought I would ask him in what language is he going to testify?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman he's indicated to me that he will testify in English.  If you could just possibly confirm that?

MR SANDI: English will be on channel 2 Mr Kgoele

MR LANDMAN: Mr Kgoele are you going to give your evidence in English?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Kgoele in 1987 were you a member of Umkhonto weSizwe?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: When did you join MK?

JOSEPH KGOELE: 1982.

MR LANDMAN: Between 1982 and 1987 had you received political training from MK members in neighbouring countries?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Had you been instructed as to the policy of the ANC and MK in regard to what were legitimate targets?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Now you've heard Mr Shoke testify this morning as to what that policy was in regard to targets.  Do you confirm that?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I do.

MR LANDMAN: You were involved in the bomb blast that took place outside the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court in 1987.  Is that correct?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes it is correct.

MR LANDMAN: Would you explain to the Committee how you first became involved in that particular incident?

JOSEPH KGOELE: As a member of Umkhonto weSizwe.  Prior to my joining the African National Congress I had endured a lot of suffering, that suffering stems primarily from the fact that I was denied a vote in my own land of birth.  Furthermore, all the Blacks in South Africa were made (indistinct) in their own land of birth so after joining the African National Congress and undergoing their military training I was assigned by General Nyanda to do a surveillance of possible targets or military targets that would be targeted by a member of Umkhonto weSizwe and in that regard me also.  So after that General Nyanda made reference to me about the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court so I surveyed that place to verify the validity or the legitimacy of our target and after that I brief General Nyanda who then told me that that would be the legitimate target for us to attack.

MR LANDMAN: Could you explain at this stage what would have been the object of attacking that target?

JOSEPH KGOELE: The object would have been to send a message to the South African regime of that time that though - that they were not only one people who could not die.  Previously the South African regime had attacked African National Congress bases in the neighbouring countries, i.e. Mozambique, Madola and Maseru and the South African Forces killed our cadres and at times civilians in those attacks so by us staging this attack, was to send a message to them and to send a message to the people of South Africa that Umkhonto was there and Umkhonto weSizwe would liberate them.

MR LANDMAN: And who was to be specifically targeted at the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court?

JOSEPH KGOELE: The military personnel or any person who had to do or who was involved in the State organs like the police or the military.

MR LANDMAN: After you had surveyed the area at the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court and had reported back to General Nyanda, what further discussions did you have with him?

JOSEPH KGOELE: The discussion centred around trying to avoid civilian casualties as far as possible and he even made insinuation or suggested that we use a decoy bomb that we had learned from past experience that whenever there was an explosion, the police will sort of cordon off the area and they will all be isolated by themselves and they would be the main target.

MR LANDMAN: Could you just explain when the police would put up a cordon, where would the civilians be?

JOSEPH KGOELE: After a cordon civilians will always be far away because the main purpose of the cordon, as far as I'm concerned, is to keep civilians away from a particular area so the only people who would have been around there would have been the police.

MR LANDMAN: In connection with this particular operation, how were you to be sure that there were only police within the cordon?

JOSEPH KGOELE: After the decoy bomb went off I stood somewhere watching the whole place, I think I was about 100 or 150 metres away from the actual place so I had to make sure that it was only the police who would seem to be around the particular area and the way the target was chosen was that we did not choose at a busy street, we choose the back street of the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court and the time also had an effect or had a factor on this because we knew that during a particular time people would be at work or the Court would be in process so the people coming in and out of that particular place will be the police so we had to ensure that we targeted solely the police.

MR LANDMAN: Was this discussed between yourself and General Nyanda at the time?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes that is so.

MR LANDMAN: Were any plans made as to how the main bomb was to be detonated?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes, it was to be detonated after the limpet mine had gone off and the police had cordoned off the area and they were the only people within that proximity.

MR LANDMAN: Was it discussed what the vice should be used to detonate the main bomb?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes as Mr Shoke had previously indicated, I was given some remote control devices.

MR LANDMAN: Now Mr Kgoele after you and General Nyanda had discussed this plan, did you have any discussions with Mr Shoke?

JOSEPH KGOELE: The discussions I had with Mr Shoke related to the usage of the remote control devices and the location of the DLB, that is the dead letter boxes where I would be able to retrieve the explosives that I was going to use on that particular day.

MR LANDMAN: Were you given any training in the use of the devices and the explosives?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes.

MR LANDMAN: Who gave you that training and what did that training consist of?

JOSEPH KGOELE: The training of using the explosives was given to me by totally different people.  Mr Shoke took me along the paces of using the remote control device.

MR LANDMAN: By the - did you then return to Johannesburg from Swaziland?

JOSEPH KGOELE: As stated earlier I'd been in and out of Swaziland on a number of occasions, not precisely to go and talk about the Magistrate Court, but to talk about various things, things I was engaged in, Umkhonto weSizwe activities.

MR LANDMAN: But on the occasion when you had received the instructions with regard to the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court bomb and had received the piece of paper indicating the location of the dead letter box, did you then return to South Africa?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I did.

MR LANDMAN: Did either General Shoke or General Nyanda know about the fact that you may use other people to assist you in this operation?

JOSEPH KGOELE: The method of operation lay solely or entirely upon the discretion of the particular cadre and like Mr Shoke did indicated earlier, we were all commanders.  One could at least or recruit people who could help serve in the MK structures.

MR LANDMAN: Did you recruit anybody to assist you in this operation?

JOSEPH KGOELE: Yes I did.

MR LANDMAN: Who was that?

JOSEPH KGOELE: William Mabele.

MR LANDMAN: What assistance did he give you?

JOSEPH KGOELE: William Mabele only assisted me in driving the backup or vehicle that, when I had to go and park the bomb laden car outside the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court.