Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Mr Ferrero was going towards his car and we approached him there, we had firearms and then later I heard a gun firing and myself and Sibongile and Tanda, we entered the house together with Mr Ferrero and Mduduzi came there and asked him as to where the firearms where and he only issued one firearm and then Mduduzi asked him about the other firearms and then he said he no longer had other firearms except for that one, that was the last one and then Mduduzi also asked for ammunition and later I heard a gun fire again and then I asked them as to where they were taking these - they took firearms, ammunition and his bag as well.

MS LOONAT: You say you were on the farm and whilst you were talking to Mr Ferrero you heard gunshots.  Can you please be more specific, was it on the farm or was it in the neighbouring area?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: On the farm.

MS LOONAT: What did you do thereafter?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: We went inside his house and Mr Ferrero said there were no longer other firearms.  We left.

MS LOONAT: Two of the occupants of the house were murdered that day, please tell us how that came about?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: As we left the house we saw Mduduzi outside the veranda and Mduduzi gave me the firearm which belonged to Mr Ferrero and told me that I should shoot Mrs Ferrero.  I didn't even ask him why he wasn't the one who is shooting Mrs Ferrero, why he was asking me to do so because I realised then there that someone was lying down, Mduduzi had already shot him and then I just shot and then we left.

MS LOONAT: So you shot Mrs Ferrero on Mduduzi's instructions, is that what you're saying?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Why didn't you ask Mduduzi to shoot him himself?
Sorry, to shoot Mrs Ferrero himself?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I was afraid to ask him and it was my first time to see someone lying down dead and Mduduzi had the gun in his hand, I was scared that if I were to tell him so he may have done something to me as well.

MS LOONAT: So in actual fact you panicked, is that what you're saying?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MS LOONAT: What items were removed from the farmhouse on that day?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: A belt and ammunition and pump gun and a bag.

MS LOONAT: Who removed all these items?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Nomanzuma.

MS LOONAT: Did you remove anything yourself?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No I didn't.

MS LOONAT: So the purpose of your entering the farm that day was to steal the owner's firearms, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Was there any - did you plan to murder any of the occupants before you had entered the farm?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No we didn't plan to kill anyone, I only heard a gunfire whilst I was there.

MS LOONAT: In the judgment we find that your fingerprints were found on the telephone.  Could you explain how that came about?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: You mean in the court judgment?

MS LOONAT: Sorry, I didn't understand that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Do you mean in the court judgment?

MS LOONAT: That's right, the proceedings at the Supreme Court.

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes I did put my hand on the telephone and then Mtanda Tshabalala broke the telephone.  He deliberately broke the telephone.

MS LOONAT: Were you ever employed by Mr Ferrero on his farm prior to this incident?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes, during school holidays, winter holidays and summer holidays I will go there and work temporarily.

MS LOONAT: Was it then that you noticed this movement of Mr Ferrero handing over firearms to the IFP etc?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No at that time I was still young and I was still attending school.

MS LOONAT: So you in fact just took instructions from your senior and believed this was what was going on?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MS LOONAT: Mr Jili, the victims' families are here this morning, is there anything you would like to disclose to them that you haven't already done?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: There is something that I can tell the victims' family.  It is very sad, what I did was not actually my aim.  The people who were with me at the time and who gave me instructions were older than me and at the time I was still immature and I couldn't stand up to them and I feel a great remorse that a life has been lost because of me and I would like to apologise greatly to the Ferrero family about what happened to them.  It was not my aim.

MS LOONAT: I have no further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOONAT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Loonat.  Ms Reddy have you got any questions?

MS REDDY: Yes Mr Chairperson, I wish to cross-examine Mr Jili.
	Mr Jili, when did you become a member of ANC?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: In 1991.

MS REDDY: You say that the victims were AWB people, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes I'm saying so because police told me so.

MS REDDY: Which police were that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Police from Port Shepstone who arrested me.

MS REDDY: So you only learned that the victims were AWB members after your arrest.  In other words what I'm actually asking you is after you committed the offence that's in question here today then you were informed by the SAP police?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes before the incident I thought that they were IFP or they were IFP sympathisers or supporters.

MS REDDY: Mr Jili, AWB members are predominantly, are only White members and I put it to you that the victims were unmistakably coloureds so in so circumstances can those victims belong to the AWB.  Can I have a response to that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I know them as coloureds, I never knew them as AWB until the police told me.  What I knew before the incident is that they were supporting IFP.

MS REDDY: How did you actually come to know that they were IFP supporters?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Mduduzi told us, Bongani Zuma also told us that they were helping IFP and whenever the IFP attackers were coming to attack us they used to pass through that farm and he was the one who was supplying firearms to the IFP attackers.

MS REDDY: So are you telling us that you went solely on what Mduduzi told you?  Can I have a response please?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MS REDDY: So in other words you actually didn't have any solid proof to the extent that these people in question, in other words the victims, were really IFP supporters?  Please answer yes or no.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Reddy, just a minute.  Ms Reddy when you put the question in English then the interpreters in the box there translate it into whatever language the applicant is speaking, I'm not even sure, I think he probably speaks Zulu and there's a lapse of time between them translating to the witness, him listening to that, responding in Zulu, it goes back to the interpreters, the interpreter then interprets the question to you so you must just allow for that process to happen, alright?  So it takes a bit longer then than usual to get a response in these circumstances.

MS REDDY: My apologies, Chairperson.

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Would you please repeat your question?

MS REDDY: You don't have any solid proof that the victims were actually IFP members?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I personally, I don't have solid proof that they were IFP members.

MS REDDY: So you acted solely on what Mduduzi told you?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MS REDDY: You killed two innocent people on just what Mduduzi told you?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I only killed one person.

MS REDDY: Why didn't you actually find out whether what Mduduzi told you was the actual truth and reality before going to the place in question and actually shooting one person?