Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR LAX: You just told us earlier that you didn't know where the man slept.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: Well if you don't know where he sleeps, then how do you know he doesn't sleep in the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: You are not going to allow a person to sleep in a hall that people use every day.

MR LAX: Why not, you can put his mattress there, roll it up in the morning, put it safely somewhere else?

ISGAK HARDIEN: The way in which I see it is that you will not let a person sleep in a hall unless the people do not have homes and they can say yes, this is an overnight shelter and people can sleep there, but this is a hall that they use in the mornings, afternoons and evenings.  So I do not think they'll let him sleep in the hall, there would have been a room, a small room somewhere where he could sleep.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Gakkie, let's come back to the time when we spoke with each other.  You said you saw me standing at the door, I say you called me from the meeting, but let us forget about that for now.  When you and I had this discussion, can you recall what you told me that evening?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, you testified earlier on that you told me that there's a bomb in the hall, that you planted the bomb there and that we had to leave, tell the truth, is that what you really told me?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: I will put it to you that you never told me that, because if you told me that I would have ran out of the hall, but what you told me when we spoke that evening was that you said that you received a threat, you cannot recall who, or you know that it is not one of the Kewtown Youth Movement, or you know that it was not I who threatened you over the phone and you also knew that it was not another member of the Kewtown Youth Movement, but you had a suspicion who it was but you knew it wasn't one of us.  Isn't that what you told me that evening?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, Mr Williams, we were not on good terms then, the Kewtown Youth Movement hated my guts, we were not on good terms, so how can I go to Mr Williams and say: "Somebody is threatening me and it's not one of you", but I hated you?

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, I know that there were some vibes between the two of us, or between you and members of the Kewtown Youth Movement, but is it not so that even at that stage you could still approach me and I could still have a normal conversation with you, is that not true?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, Mr Williams, everybody from the Kewtown Youth Movement did not want to recognise me, they had said: "Kill him" and they did not want me close to them.

MR WILLIAMS: Wasn't this march or these placards after the bomb attacks?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Before the bomb attack they Kewtown Youth Movement and myself, we did not understand each other very well.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but is the fact of the matter not that although we knew this, the two of us could still have a good or a normal conversation?  I could come to you and say: "Gakkie, you are on the wrong side", we could argue about that and we had some respect for each other?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, we were good friends and when you found out I was with Mr Anthony then, then things changed, so I cannot see how I could have spoken to you about things.  We distances each other from each other, so I cannot say how I could have come to Mr Williams and say this or that to him, or you do not like me.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if it is so that we did not like you, would you still then have approached me and made a confession and said that: "I planted a bomb here and by implication you must now leave the place, because otherwise you'll be killed"?  Does it make sense to you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, what I told you was that you must all get out, you laughed at me and you said: "No, you're fucked up."  Because if I say something else, I do not know what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Please just calm down.

MR WILLIAMS: That was probably also the first time that I swore at you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I do not know Mr Williams as a person who swears, curses, but because we were not good friends anymore, Mr Williams was probably ...

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie, will you go to anyone and say, who according to your evidence to not like you, and say to them that: "I planted a bomb", knowing that there's a bomb in the hall and that it will explode at any time?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I did not make use of the words: "It will detonate at any stage", I told you: "Pietie, all of you must leave because I planted a bomb there."

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but do you agree with me that no normal thinking person or a person who is sane will go to another person and say: "I planted a bomb", because the reason is very obvious, if a bomb detonates then the person whom you told this to will go to the police and say: "There's a person who just confessed and he said he just planted the bomb"?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I say I told I said that, there's nothing else that I can say.  Whether Mr Williams will put it in a different way or think differently, but this is what I said.

MR WILLIAMS: But does it make sense to you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It may not make sense to you, but this is what I said.  Maybe it doesn't make sense to the Committee, but that is what I said.

MR WILLIAMS: But my question is, does it make sense to you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, it does make sense.  If I tell you I'm going to hit you, I will hit you.  It does make sense to me.  It may not make sense to you, but it makes sense to me.  If I tell you now I'm going to take your keys and I'm going to drive away with your vehicle, I will, I will take the keys and drive away with your vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you said to Mr Williams, who was at that stage a person you didn't like, that you had planted a bomb, were you not afraid or worried that he might go to the police and report you and then you'd get arrested and go to jail?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, Mr Chairperson, I did not even think of the fact that I would be arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is what Mr Williams is asking, why not?  I mean if somebody came here and said: "Look they've planted a bomb here, we must all get out", he must reasonably expect that he's going to be reported to the police and that he'll get arrested.  And in fact it's a serious offence.

ISGAK HARDIEN: At that stage I did not worry.

MR LAX: You see even to make a false claim is an offence.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: Even if you made a false claim, even if there wasn't a bomb and you went there and said to people: "I put a bomb in this place" and everyone panicked and ran out, that's an offence in itself.

ISGAK HARDIEN: As I said, I did not worry, I told him it as I just put it.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I see it's 1 o'clock now, shall we adjourn now or later?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's just past 1 o'clock, we'll take the lunch adjournment until 2 o'clock.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ISGAK HARDIEN: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: (Cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Gakkie, the car that you used that evening, to transport Slang and Calla, was it Sulaiman Stanley's car?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that name, Mr Williams, I didn't catch the first name.

MR WILLIAMS: Sulaiman Stanley.  S-u-l-a-i-m-a-n.
	And did you tell Sulaiman why you needed his car?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Did he have a suspicion why you needed his car?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know.

MR WILLIAMS: Did Sulaiman know that you were involved with the CCB?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR WILLIAMS: And the bank account into which your money was deposited, was it Nasmie Passier's account?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, what money was deposited in his account?

MR WILLIAMS: Perhaps you could answer that.