Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

UNKNOWN: Yes, I can give some information regarding that.  Yes, I was the leader because I was the Chairman of the Tribal Authority and all the people, irrespective of
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what their affiliation or backgrounds, were all coming to me as members of the area of my jurisdiction.  That is why and two because of my warnings that I use to give to the Tribal Authority members when these things started happening.  They said you are responsible for this and thirdly when our people, particularly the youth, got arrested the traditional leaders around the area agreed that we needed to have a fund, the Inzunza Relief Fund, which was run by me.  That fund was one, established specifically for the following.  One, to help the poor comrades who happened to be arrested because almost all the youth in the area was arrested.  Two, to challenge the decision of the Government of going for independence.  Thirdly, for the fact that for consultation purposes we had the youth, as I have said, that almost everyone, you know, our place was like a, I do not know what to call it, where everyone goes when, it is a refuge place.  There we set up a structure that was connected to the Tribal Authority and the King helping us in the administration and giving attention to the complaints that were put to us.  We had a very big book where we enlisted all the people who came there to lodge complaints, but unfortunately all those were confiscated by Lerm and his force.  These people use to come there and they were getting help and because of the Imbokhoto raids.  After the raids people would come to my place there and because of the administration that was there because there was no longer administration, tribal administration.  It was because the members of the Tribal Authority, most of them, were Imbokhoto members.  So, nature does not allow vacuum.  So we had people who were helping the Tribal Authority in the administration of the area here.  Probably that is why and I remember that it was because of 
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allegations like those that I got charged under this serious Act.  I want just to put it that I was never involved in any ill activity.  That I can openly say in front of the world, in front of everyone, but for their sake and their rights.  I mean they have got a right, you know, to say whatever, put whatever allegations as it is a standing rule in South Africa that one is not guilty until something has been proved that he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  May I put one follow-up question?  I am not challenging what you are saying, I am not even making a moral judgement on killings or not killings in these days.  I am not getting involved.  I want to get to some facts.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: A lot of the politicians from the old order take exactly the same line.  You have heard them say we were not involved.  Mr de Klerk in his submission on behalf of the National Party said, we did not give any orders, we did not do anything.  The question remains was anything done when these atrocities did happen to stop them?  Was it investigated?  Now my question is likewise.  Do you, when it was quite apparent that some of the youth did kill people, did burn down shops, did you get involved, did you try to stop it, were there public statements?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I think you in the investigation, you might pick that up because, as I have said, I went personally when these things were happening you know.  One, to the Chief Minister himself although he got angry with me when I said to him, you know, this is going to create problems because people have been attacked by Imbokhoto which is led by you.  We are going to have problems.  I
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think you need to stop this.  I went and wrote a letter, personally, but as the Chairman of the Tribal Authority to the Commissioner of South Africa then, to the Commissioner- General, Mr Gerrie van der Merwe, to the Ministers I have already said, telling them about this and I did make a statement that I am a traditional leader and I do not have to take sides, but unfortunately because of my position and my stance I was on the side of the people, of the comrade, but I did reprimand them everytime.  Even at my place there I use to address them to say, guys, let us not attack these people, let us not do this ill activities.  Stop doing this and when there is something that has happened, whether burning, necklacing and so on, it is the very Prince James Mahlangu who use to take that up with the police.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did report and give information to the police.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Even where some of the youngsters would have attacked Imbokhoto?

UNKNOWN: Quite right.

CHAIRPERSON: You would have examples of that, some documentary examples for us to get to study and to get to findings on?

UNKNOWN: I will not have, but the police, I think, will have.  I remember one incident where two guys from Waterval brought a R1, whatever this rifles, R1, R4, R5.  I do not know what type was it.  Having committed crimes at Waterval.  I did phone the police and referred those people to the police station.  Again when two people were killed, necklaced at my place, Weltevrede there, it is me who asked the police, tribal police to go and report that there are
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two people who have been necklaced in my area and police would come and collect, you know, the corpses and investigate.  Unfortunately, I was, you know, accused to be responsible for that.  When, in actual fact, I was not party to that.  What I did before, I did meet with the people who were related to that incident to advice them that, no, they need, you know, to sort that out in talking.  So I have instances that I can quote where I was directly involved and reporting information to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  That is the end of my questioning.  Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Prince James, we have been keeping you for a long time so I just want to ask one or two questions.  Just to come to some of the internal politics.  You mentioned in your testimony, you spoke about the Commissioner of Police, Chris van Niekerk.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, in terms of some of the information that we have gathered it seems as if there was an internal division within the KwaNdebele police and relationships between the Commissioner, at least, of the KwaNdebele police, Chris van Niekerk and those who were supporting independence, was not always a harmonious relationship.  Do you want to, perhaps, just say something briefly on that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true.  Van Niekerk was accused of being biased, of being siding with me and the comrades.  That was the allegation because they were saying why is he not arresting me and van Niekerk could not arrest me because there was nothing that linked me to any ill or evil act.  Investigations were done, were conducted, but nothing that would connect me to any incident and that, as
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a result, the Government felt that this man was siding with us.  That is why he cannot, you know, get us arrested.

RUSSELL ALLY: And, in your opinion, was that the reason why a decision was actually taken to remove van Niekerk and to replace him with Brigadier Lerm who became Commissioner of Police.  I think it was after August 1986.

UNKNOWN: No doubts about that.  I think my brother did allude to the fact that when Lerm was brought down here to KwaNdebele to become a Commissioner of Police he was given some specific instructions that van Niekerk failed to carry out.  So that is true that Lerm was brought here precisely because van Niekerk was regarded as someone who was very lenient.