Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

CHAIRPERSON: Whatever large may mean?

MR VISSER: Whatever it may mean.  Did you in your mind's eye visualise the late Ms Kubheka as  your size, for example, or larger than yourself, or smaller?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well, I would have thought she was considerably shorter.

MR VISSER: I am not talking about length.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well, you see, we are at odds as to what large means.  By me large means a large person, I am not a large person, I would have thought that in stature, nor in girth, I would have thought that Ms Kubheka was smaller than I am, so I ...

MR VISSER: Shorter?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well, you see, that is what I am trying to put to you, you say shorter, I would have said smaller.  If you are talking about weight, she was probably in girth, larger than I, but shorter in stature.

MR VISSER: Ms Miller, I thought in English language when you refer to the height of a person or the length of a person, you say she is tall or she is short.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you talk about a large person, I mean if you've got a person who is standing 5ft and he is fat, is that person large?  If you've got a person standing 6'7ft and he is thin, is that person large?

MR VISSER: Yes, well ...

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you've got big people and little people, it is a very difficult, it doesn't slot in.  The word large does not slot in.  Most people consider a large person to be tall and of big build.  That is a large person, but a short, fat person, some people may not call large, I will call him short and fat.

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Chairperson.  Well, is that how you would in your mind's eye describe her, short and fat?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I would have thought she was short and fat, or short and plump.

MR VISSER: Let's forget about the short, I don't want to talk about the length at all.  Would you consider your girth, with what the picture that you had in your mind's eye of Ms Kubheka, to be the same size as hers or do you think you were bigger or what?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Okay, I would have thought that if Ms Kubheka weighed what I weigh ...

MR VISSER: Which is?

STEPHANIE MILLER: And it was condensed ...

MR VISSER: Which is?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I am not sure exactly what I weight, but it is certainly larger than I would like.

MR VISSER: Larger, yes?  Thank you.  Thank you.  Please continue.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Okay, it is certainly more than I would like to weigh, I would have thought that if Ms Kubheka weighed what I weighed, and she was considerably shorter than I am, she would have looked disproportionate and we would have considered her maybe plump or fat, but in a taller person weighing what I weigh, you wouldn't notice that she was plump at all.

MR VISSER: I am just talking about girth really, would she have been - may I read to you Chairperson, what I have been referring to, in the record on page 1900?
	Mr Wills asked Ms Masetla to stand up and an estimation was made of her height in relation to whatever and then in the middle of the page says Mr Wills -
"... Thank you Ms Masetla."
	And then he says this, have you found the passage Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: That is right.
"... The evidence of the family will be that she was a particularly short woman of similar height to Ms Masetla, although she was quite large.  Thank you."
	A very clear distinction between length and girth if I might call it that, size.  Chairperson, we will refer to that, and I may as well do it now, in Bundle 2 at page 91, there is the evidence on affidavit of the husband, Mr Nqobo and you will see at page 93 in the middle of the page again where he describes her appearance.  
"... The general appearance of Ntombi was as follows
	1.  approximately 1.6 m tall, normal build."  (transcriber's own interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: There is also this photograph which we were going to call exhibit, but which we didn't, of her sitting on the bed.  I cannot recall precisely when that was taken.

MR VISSER: We don't know yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that portrays to my mind, and it is also a question of opinion, I suppose, that she wasn't a huge woman?

MR VISSER: Stout?

CHAIRPERSON: Plump, a bit overweight, but not obese?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This one of her sitting on the bed counting, it looks like, money.

MR VISSER: We haven't got that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if we can get the photocopies of these photos, I think while we are dealing with it, various photos, the photographs that we have available, if copies could be made and distributed.

MR VISSER: We would be very pleased to receive them, yes Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Who else does not have?  I've got some few copies.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't have one, I had one, but I cannot find it, I am afraid.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I believe that I have laid the basis of what I want to put to Ms Miller.  Ms Miller, I believe last week on Thursday or Friday, when the dresses, the exhibits were displayed, and during an adjournment, were you present when the belt that came with Exhibit 1, the dress, was taken off the dress and measured?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes, Mr Wagener tried it on his waist.

MR VISSER: Yes, did it fit his girth, did it go around his waist?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The belt as it was without the buckle, went around his waist.  Well, he said it fitted him and he was a size 31 denim, was his exact comment.

MR VISSER: Well, Ms Miller, your memory is very short.  It didn't even fit him.  It wouldn't go around his waist, not the full length of the belt.

STEPHANIE MILLER: It did not have a buckle on it, I seem to recall.

MR VISSER: That is correct.  It doesn't have a buckle on it, now from the buckle marks to where the buckle is supposed to be, we measured and anyone is free to measure as well, we measured it at 79 cm.  You were present?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I was present when you did that.

MR VISSER: And the full length of the belt without the buckle, was 87 cm?  Do you remember that?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I don't recall how long it was?

MR VISSER: 79, 87.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean, what is the 79 and what is the 87?

MR VISSER: The full length of the belt Chairperson, from end to end measured 87 cm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR VISSER: There are marks on the holes where the buckle used to be worn by whoever wore it, from that point, to where the buckle is supposed to be is 79 cm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Ms Miller, is that belt present?  Could we just have a look at it please.  Are those exhibits present?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The exhibits are here, I don't have it.

MR VISSER: I think while we are on this point, Chairperson, if you will forgive me for the interruption, we would just wish to demonstrate to you the point of our case as it were.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Mr Visser, I think I should advise you that those exhibits are actually in the possession of what used to be called the D'Oliviera Unit, and they brought it down for the purpose of this, so we don't have them.

MR VISSER: I understand.  I am certainly not casting any blame on you, I am just asking whether they are present.
	It seems that they are going to be found.  Can I go on in the meantime?  What did you mean by the level of decomposition being appropriate to the approximate date of death, what exactly in layman's terms did you intend to express by that expression?