Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

ADV STEENKAMP: My question is this Sir, the Wimpy Bar had a lot of civilians, we know today that no police were killed.  Opposite the Wimpy Bar there are police, a lot of police, and you're saying now today that you didn't want to attack the police ...[indistinct] opposite but rather the one or two individuals in the Wimpy Bar?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I've answered that question, that I couldn't know that there was a kiosk.  If I'd known by that time I think they're also going to be our target because we wanted to attack the enemy whatever they are.

ADV STEENKAMP: Maybe you can answer this question, who decided to attack this Wimpy Bar on this specific day and specific time, was it you?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Will you repeat your question?

ADV STEENKAMP: Who decided on this specific day, which was a Saturday at noon, 12 o'clock, who decided at this specific time this bomb must be planted and the operation must be executed?  Who decided on this?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually the whole unit decided on that because we took a common grounds, especially on planning.

ADV STEENKAMP: So wasn't the reason because it was the anniversary that you decided on this specific day, not because people were frequenting this place?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: No, actually what I'm trying to say is that we took a general planning and we took a collective mandate or to execute the operation.  And the other thing is that we were celebrating the anniversary of the South African Communist Party.

ADV STEENKAMP: So that's the reason why you decided on a week day, or early morning, or late afternoon?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Will you repeat?

ADV STEENKAMP: Why did you decide on a weekend, or during the week, or early morning, or late afternoon, why noon on a Saturday?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes, we have to decide for Saturday because the enemy was supposed to be there exactly 12 o'clock or past.

ADV STEENKAMP: You planted the bomb as well, I mean the limpet mine, yourself?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes, I did that.

ADV STEENKAMP: When you planted the limpet mine, did you see any police in the Wimpy Bar at all?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually during the time when I went there to organise the thing we knew that their are coming.

ADV STEENKAMP: No, no, no, my question is Sir, according to our information this limpet was planted inside the Wimpy on a leg of a table, am I right?  That's right, that's were the limpet mine was planted, am I right?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Not on the leg.

ADV STEENKAMP: Where was it planted?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Underneath the table.

ADV STEENKAMP: Underneath the table.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: And you did it yourself?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes, I did it.

ADV STEENKAMP: When you did this, this is my question, did you see any police, security, high brass police in the Wimpy Bar when you planted that bomb?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually I've been repeating that the enemy by that time, they were supposed to be there at twelve.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, you said repeatedly you knew these people, you identified them, you did reconnaissance.  My easy question is, I think it's just yes or no, were there police inside the Wimpy or not?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that through my reconnaissance it's been said that the police personnel and those who belong to the high structures are visiting or frequenting that Wimpy Bar.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlovu, when you planted the bomb, were there policemen that you knew of in the Wimpy Bar?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: What I can say is that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any policemen there?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Is not(?)
INTERVENTION BY AUDIENCE CLAPPING AND COMMENTING

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not going to tolerate that.

ADV STEENKAMP: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.
	Sir, did you check, before you planted this bomb, that there actually were other people or police close by the Wimpy Bar?  Before you did that, did you check whether or not there were police close or even inside?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I have checked.

ADV STEENKAMP: And what did you see, did you see any police close by?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually through my reconnaissance, as I have indicated, at 12 they were supposed to be there and so attacking Wimpy Bar, it was meant for attacking, it was not meant to attack civilians.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, to be frank and honest with you, you knew very well because you knew the place, there was no police inside or even close to the Wimpy Bar.  Am I right in saying this?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: No, you're wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: He just said so.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Did you get paid?  How did you sponsor yourself, or this trip, did you get paid, did you get any amount of money for this work you've done?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually we were being assisted from our frontal commands, to be sustained, especially financially.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is: "Did you get paid for doing this job"?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] question was.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you answer the question?  Did he answer, I didn't hear.  Thank you Mr Chairman, sorry.
	Sir, who was your commanding officer and who gave you your instructions?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Where?

ADV STEENKAMP: For attacking the Wimpy Bar and the attack on the police in Katlehong.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually what I said previously is that we took a decision together.

ADV STEENKAMP: Because I don't see that anywhere in your application which was submitted to the TRC, can you give an explanation for that?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Can you repeat your question?

ADV STEENKAMP: I don't see this information anywhere in your amnesty application which was submitted to the TRC, that you took a decision collectively, and you don't mention anybody.  Is there a reason for that?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually through our organigramme it has been stated that our structure, it was structured the way it exists on the bundle of papers.

ADV STEENKAMP: No, I'm talking about your own application.  I can refer you to your application ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: With respect to my learned friend, the organigramme was supplied as part and parcel of the further particulars requested by the TRC from all the applicants.  It may well have been supplied by one of them but this refers to all of them and it would improper and unfair to say that this organigramme is not part of his application.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Mr Steenkamp, look at page 32.

ADV STEENKAMP: I've seen it Mr Chairman.
	My last question to you Sir, I see here in your application you refer to page 32, paragraph 11(b):
"The order by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe"
What is the relevance of this information?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually what I can say ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What's the question?

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry Mr Chairman.
	I see you are stating there, on the question: "Who gave such an order".  You said:
"It was in line by ANC police to conduct such an act.  The order by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe"

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually we never instructed by Chris Hani to attack a Wimpy Bar because Hani belonged to the MHQ, he never issued out such an instruction.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me what your role was in the Katlehong attack?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Which one?

ADV STEENKAMP: The one where the police were injured.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: What was my role?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes.  The Lindela Hostel, can you remember that?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes, I remember that.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell me what your role was exactly and your part there in that action?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: My role in that action, we went there to execute the operation by shooting at the enemy personnel.

ADV STEENKAMP: Why did you decide on this specific place, Katlehong, was there a specific reason or not?