Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR DU PLESSIS: Madam Chair, in respect of that question I just want to rectify something.  The affidavits that Mr Pigou referred to were not found by the Investigation Unit apparently. I haven't seen any reference in any record pertaining to these hearings at all. Those affidavits were found by my client in an attempt to assist this committee and they've been drawn to the attention of this Committee by Colonel Potgieter and not by the Investigating Unit, that includes the affidavit of Mrs Mandela and the affidavit of Zinzi Mandela.

MR PIGOU: I'm sorry I think Mr du Plessis misunderstands what I was saying, I was talking about the Security Branch investigation Unit not the TRC's Investigation Unit.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I heard the question. I wanted to place that on record, thank you Madame Chair.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: I have no further questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you Mr Pretorius. I'm sure you ...[intervention}

ANTON PRETORIUS: Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: This session is over for you certainly, you may be excused.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, just for the record and for correctness, the gentleman appearing for the Mabotha family is Mr Mabunda, not Mavundla, Mavundla is my instructing attorney, so I don't want the record down the line to read confusingly.

YASMINE SOOKA: I wonder if the gentleman could just write his name properly so we can have it.

MR SEMENYA: I can spell it for you Chairperson.  That would be M-a-b-u-n-d-a.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much.  If we could make sure that that is noted for the transcription, thank you very much. Could we now call Mr Coetzee please and Mr Nienaber?

MR KEMP: Madam Chairperson, is it the intention to call both witnesses simultaneously?
NO SOUND

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, I'd like to welcome you to the Commission. I think we must apologise for keeping you both here until so late but hopefully when we finish then that's the end of it for you certainly for this hearing. Could I ask you one by one to put your full names on the record please?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Ignatius Coetzee.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

MR NIENABER: Sarel Petrus Nienaber.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you have any objections to taking the oath?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: (sworn states)

SAREL PETRUS NIENABER: (sworn states)

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: Thank you Madame Chairperson. I will follow the same procedure with these witnesses to try and curtail proceedings.

MR PIGOU: Excuse me Mr Kemp, perhaps I can make a quick interjection? It's just a suggestion to speed up proceedings. We've all been given the statements of the two gentlemen here and I'm wondering if rather than reading them into the record, we can't just get them to confirm the contents of those and then we can proceed with questioning.

MR KEMP: We can certainly do that Madame Chairperson. I believe everybody has had the opportunity to look at it.
 General Coetzee you made a declaration in this regard, is that correct, an affidavit is that the document in front of you?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: That's correct.

MR KEMP: And a copy of that document was also handed to the Commission, is that so? Do you accept that this is correct?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I do.

MR KEMP: And Mr Nienaber ...[intervention]

MR NIENABER: May I proceed?  Before we proceed may I just draw your attention to the fact - if you would allow me that the suggestion was made that there was working together, we will work together in the affidavits and I think I should put it categorically that nobody worked together.
 In fact I can give you the assurance that as far as I'm concerned I was alone with the attorney and the advocate, not for the rest of the duration of my affidavit, we were at the tail end of my affidavit. I almost said everything that I'm going to say now or what I'm saying now.  
 When Colonel Kritzinger, who had an appointment also entered and his only contribution was to greet me and he kept quiet until I had finished. Advocate Kemp dictated my affidavit and the entrance I make is that he followed the same procedure with regard to the other members whom he represents, therefore the style and the editing is the same.
 If I look at it chronologically after we have received the subpoena most of our members he represents were there together in his office with our attorney. We did discuss the subpoena, that is true. And with all due respect I want to say that it is misleading, misleading in the sense that I don't want to be rude. I think it was rather vague and we must not beat about the bush. 
 They then made appointments with us and then finally when the affidavit was towards the end and rounded off we again gathered together, not all of us and we tried to ascertain whether there was a clashing of interests. So I wanted to get it off my chest. I can assure you because if the allegation were made that we were together, then it also reflects on me and I don't want that reflection which is not correct, I don't want that on me. Thank you for listening to me. I just wanted to clarify the matter.

MR KEMP: Thank you General. General Nienaber did you sign an affidavit in this matter?

MR NIENABER: Yes.

MR KEMP: Was it the document that you have in front of you? Is it also a document that was placed in front of the Commission? Do you accept that the document is correct?

MR NIENABER: That's correct.

MR KEMP: Thank you Chairperson.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  Mr Pigou?

MR PIGOU: Thank you Madame Chair, perhaps just a very, very brief response to what Mr Coetzee has just said, I think the ...[intervention]

YASMINE SOOKA: No, Mr Pigou, I think I've noted it and I'm not allowing a debate on it.

MR PIGOU: Okay, can I just then request - yesterday evening I had brief conversation with Advocate Kemp about the disclosure of names that were provided on the telephone list. I don't intend to refer to that whole list and put names on the list at this point but there is one question that I'll be wanting to ask, where I refer to I think it's one or two names that are on that list. I wonder whether Advocate Kemp had approached his clients as he said he would determine whether they had any problem in that respect.

MR KEMP: Madame Chairperson, yesterday when we adjourned Commissioner Boraine said that he wanted to consider the matter about divulging the names on the list. I did indeed have a conversation with Mr Pigou.  I said to him that I personally couldn't see any objection but I would have to consult with my clients. I did in fact do that and I was informed that the revelation of the names from that list might be embarrassing to some of those people.
 It might also endanger continuous investigations which might be of a criminal nature and that it would not be wise to place those names on record. On behalf of the clients whom I represent I will then request that those names don't be divulged here in the open. They are available to the Commission, thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, we will take the list into consideration and make sure that the legal representatives have a copy of that list because I think that's only fair.

MR KEMP: Okay.

YASMINE SOOKA: Carry on.

MR PIGOU: Thank you. I'd like to put this question to both gentlemen and I think it's a simple yes or no answer. Would you agree that Mrs Mandela was the most high profile political personality in the area that was under your jurisdiction?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes.