Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-09

MR LAX: But if this statement had gone through you would not have appeared before us, you would never have got the opportunity to tell us.  So I'm asking you again, why didn't you ask Madlala?

N D NTANZI: It did not occur to me to ask Mr Madlala.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Ntanzi, I put it to you Sir, that you keep changing statements to suite your needs at a particular point, what do you say to that?

N D NTANZI: What I am saying here is the truth, the whole truth.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR SAMUEL: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clear up something.  I don't know if I've heard you correctly, did you say that your brother was working as a security guard in Eshowe?

N D NTANZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In your amnesty application you were asked for the name of the victim and you said
"Mr Ntanzi"
and you were asked for the occupation and addresses of the victim and you said:
"He worked in the forest cutting trees."
Why did you say that?

N D NTANZI: When he started working he used to cut trees but as time went on he became a security guard.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

ADV SIGODI: Did you know if your brother was an ANC supporter or did you suspect that he was an ANC supporter?

N D NTANZI: I did not suspect.  If there were ANC meetings, he would go and attend them.

MR LAX: So you're saying you knew?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I did know.

ADV SIGODI: So when you had arguments, political arguments between yourselves, he would come out clearly that he was ANC, to you?

N D NTANZI: Yes, it was obvious because he would actually insult me and say that he would not support my organisation because their members were ignorant and uncivilised.

ADV SIGODI: These unknown people who kept on visiting your brother, when did they start visiting him?

N D NTANZI: When the violence started we started noticing these unknown persons coming to visit my brother, although I cannot remember now just which month it was.

ADV SIGODI: Was it after you had left your home or was it before you had left your home?

N D NTANZI: When the violence started I was still living at home and the area was still then an IFP stronghold, but as time went on people started joining the ANC as well and then these unknown people started visiting my home, visiting my brother.

ADV SIGODI: Would they come for one day at a time or would they stay over at your place for days on end, when they visited?

N D NTANZI: They would come and some of them would leave on that one occasion and some would remain.

ADV SIGODI: Did they stay at your home?

N D NTANZI: Some would stay and some would leave.

ADV SIGODI: And how many were they roughly?

N D NTANZI: I would not be in a position to give an estimate because there were many.

ADV SIGODI: Would you say 10 or 20?

N D NTANZI: Sometimes there would be 10 or maybe even 20 and some of them would leave and maybe 5 would remain.

ADV SIGODI: Would they hold meetings at your home or what, what would they do when they come to your home?

N D NTANZI: At about seven in the evenings they would leave.  There was a big river near my home called Nkukuze and they would actually go and hold meetings near that place and I did not know what time they returned.

ADV SIGODI: Did your brother hold a high ANC political profile, or did he have any political position in the ANC?

N D NTANZI: He was just a member, I don't think he had a position.

ADV SIGODI: Who were the leaders of the ANC in that area at that time?

N D NTANZI: There was one, Sipho Ndlovu.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know what position he held in the ANC?

N D NTANZI: No, I do not know his position because my brother would not tell me what positions people held, just as I would not have told him about my organisation.

N D NTANZI: But you say he was not a leader, he was not holding any high position in the ANC as far as you know?

N D NTANZI: No, he was not a leader but he was just a member.

ADV SIGODI: And then shortly after he died, all the violence simply stopped?

N D NTANZI: Yes, the violence stopped.

ADV SIGODI: Were there any other ANC members who were killed at that time, besides your brother?

N D NTANZI: No, it was the IFP members who were being killed.

ADV SIGODI: But did the IFP not kill any other ANC members at that time?

N D NTANZI: I would be making a mistake if I said there were.  I was even - it was suggested to me that I should leave because IFP members were the ones who were mostly killed in the area.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, I'm trying to get the picture as to what was actually happening there.  If you're saying that there was strife between the ANC and the IFP, and if you're saying that your brother wasn't holding such a high political position in the ANC, and your evidence is that when he was killed then all the violence suddenly died down and yet there were no other ANC people who were killed.

N D NTANZI: He was a trusted member, that he was brave.

ADV SIGODI: Was your brother married?

N D NTANZI: No, he was not.

ADV SIGODI: Did he have any children?

N D NTANZI: No.

ADV SIGODI: Was there any money paid out to him after his death?

N D NTANZI: I don't know, I do not remember because after his death I was arrested.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know if your mother got any monies from his employers?

N D NTANZI: I would not have knowledge thereof because I was actually arrested and I spent a lot of time awaiting trial.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.
	You said the violence died down after your brothers death.  Now you were arrested within a couple of days after his death, isn't that right?

N D NTANZI: We committed the crime on a Saturday and I was arrested on a Monday.

MR LAX: And not only you but a whole lot of other people were also arrested, is that so?

N D NTANZI: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: Not only you, several other people were also arrested, is that not so?

N D NTANZI: Yes, I was not the only one arrested.

MR LAX: Isn't that why the violence suddenly died down in your area?

N D NTANZI: Most of the people who were arrested belonged to the IFP and they were suspects in the crime.

MR LAX: You haven't my question.

N D NTANZI: Please repeat it.

MR LAX: I said, because these IFP suspects were arrested, isn't that why the violence died down?

N D NTANZI: Thy were arrested but later released.  I was the one who remained in the cells, but some were released.

MR LAX: Some were released, but you and Ngwenya and others remained in the cells, isn't that so?

N D NTANZI: Yes.

MR LAX: Now you've said to us that your brother took part in this violence, how did he take part in this violence?

N D NTANZI: My brother was influential because if he instructed not to do something, they would not do it and the ANC members used to visit and come to my home because they trusted him.  He was able to fight and control the situation.

MR LAX: You see you're saying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know this, you were never there were you?  You were never at the meetings of the ANC people, were you?

N D NTANZI: I would get information from IFP members that my brother was busy in the fight against them and they wanted to know how best to attack him.

MR LAX: You never saw him involved in the fighting?

N D NTANZI: Please repeat the question.

MR LAX: You never saw him involved in the fighting yourself?

N D NTANZI: No, I've never seen him.

MR LAX: But you were part of the group that was defending the IFP, how come you never saw him involved in the fighting, if you were one of the defendants?

N D NTANZI: Because there were ANC people, unknown persons who used to visit my home.  It was IFP members who used to tell me about how my brother used to fight.  I was no longer residing at home by that time.

MR LAX: So did you leave the area, is that what you are saying?