Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I was just going to return to Exhibit D Chairperson, on the issue of whether there was evidence about more than two safe houses at all.  Paragraph 37 at page 8 was the evidence which Mr Botha gave and he said Ndaba gave him the addresses of certain safe houses and during the night of 7 - 8 July, Botha and Du Preez broke into two of those safe houses, yes.

MR LAX: I'm not disputing that.

MR VISSER: Yes but it's not really an issue, Chairperson, whether it was two or more, with respect.

MS POSWA: Mr du Preez, finally, you say that these people, the actions you did were done in a war situation.  Well in the general conclusion of the whole scenario but in fact it wasn't, you had had all the time, these men had been arrested, detained, we submit tortured and you had had all the time to consider your options?  I want to put it to you that you really cannot say that this was done in a war situation.  There wasn't a shoot out, the whole thing was planned and orchestrated well and therefore you cannot seriously be asking that this Committee should forgive you for that?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in my application we have sketched the situation and the circumstances and I maintain and stand by that.

MS POSWA: No more questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS POSWA

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr du Preez, I see referring to your applications and that is you and your two colleagues, Wasserman and the third non-commissioned officer, sorry, it's Van der Westhuizen, that apart from your personal details these applications are practically identical, is that correct?  I mean you answer question 9(a) question 10(a) word for word, exactly the same.  Question 10(b), question - you've all got these eight points and these up to question 10(b) you've got the ten points identical, giving your political motivation?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: How did that come about?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we have testified at many occasions this was on the last day and these applications were then completed in a hurry.

MR WILLS: So what you're saying is that - do you know what you said in these applications?  Like if I was to ask you without referring to your application what your political aim to be achieved was under Section 10(a) would you be able to tell me, the points that you raised there.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, I won't say that out of my head but I will have to refer to it by reading it.

MR WILLS: You see it seems to me as if some other source has entered into the equation and these facts have been put to you and then you thought that this is something that I can agree to, possibly, but you didn't actually come up with this wording yourself because had you done so it would have differed from your colleagues?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this was something that was completed and there was a general indication from head office how to complete it because we didn't know how to complete the forms and what the legal aspects were.

MR WILLS: So did somebody legal complete this?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: This was submitted to our legal representatives.

MR WILLS: Before you sent it to Cape Town?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The legal representatives sent it to Cape Town.

MR WILLS: So can I be correct then that in assuming that you did have legal representation prior or you did have the input of lawyers prior to this application going to Cape Town?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, we took it to them, if I can remember correctly the forms were put out and it had to be completed and we did it jointly, Botha, myself, Wasserman and Van der Westhuizen.

MR WILLS: I know you did it jointly, I can see that they were all commissioned by exactly the same person on the same date, it's the 13th December 1996, but I just want to know, where do you get these answers from?  I going to quote from you?
"State political aim to be achieved?"
	1.	"The defence and maintenance of the former governmental political order."
	2.	"To avert the onslaught of the ANC."
	3.	"To make every attempt -"
And everyone's is the same, the three of yours is the same, in fact the five of you of the same.  Steyn's is the same, so is Botha's in answer to these questions.  The difference between Steyn's and Botha's is they give a little bit more detail or a lot more detail as regards the event?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So I want to know, where do you get this information from?  Tell me?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson that is how we saw it collectively and I think Steyn and Botha had perhaps some information from head office we didn't, we came there on the last day and it was cleared out with them.

MR WILLS: So at the very least you concede that the five of you worked very closely with one another prior to submitting these applications?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Do you refer to the completion of the forms?

MR WILLS: Yes.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes.

MR WILLS: And no doubt you had made sure that in the completion of these forms there were no contradictions?  Is that right?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, surely.

MR WILLS: Now you took a decision not to describe the incident in any way yourself, you just said you incorporate the statements of General Steyn and Botha in your original application.  Why did you take that decision?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, there wasn't enough time or not a lot of time and I was also of the opinion that we first had to get legal representation before we may complete submissions.

MR WILLS: And you did so?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Just one further thing prior to going to the incident.  Your counsel referred us to the fact that already in 1994 you knew that the Attorney General of Pretoria was investigating this case?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Did that in any way motivate you to apply for amnesty?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, my motivation for the application was to get amnesty.  The Attorney General's issue didn't really motivate me.

MR WILLS: I would have thought that that be a big motivating factor.  If you know the chances are that you're going to go to jail for this crime you had better apply for amnesty in respect of this crime?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It's possibly the case.

MR WILLS: Well I'm asking you.  I'm asking you and I want you to be honest with your answer to me?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the reason why I applied was because we all decided together and we had to bring this out to the open and say everything about it and it was a joint decision by all of us.

MR WILLS: Now the implication of your evidence, that is your application that you originally signed on the 13th December 1996, your statement which you've handed to me yesterday that I think is Exhibit L and your viva voce evidence, that's your oral testimony before the Committee today is to the effect that you knew nothing about Vula prior to the arrest of Ndaba?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And it also seems to me to be your evidence that you were not involved in any operation as regards observing safe houses connected with Vula prior to the arrest of Ndaba?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Your only, your involvement commenced for the first time when you received information that Ndaba had been arrested and you attended at C.R. Swart?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And even at that stage you didn't know it was Vula, you only found out about Vula later on that evening?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.