Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson in the instance of necklacing and even the councillors I think that the position that we have tried to put was to give an understanding of the time when positions were taken by the movement, not subsequently, and in the context of the responsibility we had of leading the struggle.
With regards to necklacing applications, certainly it would be our duty if the TRC approached the African National Congress and said here is an applicant claiming to have done this as a member of the ANC, for us to look into the matter as the ANC and indicate some form of verification, because the question of membership must be understood in the context of underground ties, just as today there isn't anybody left in the country who was pro-apartheid. There are many, many people who simply say I was a member of the ANC. I mean we know the case of Lucky Mhlaza. He made a statement saying that he had done a necklacing and got out and was released, yet he was a bank robber and had not been a member of the ANC. So I think we would like to offer our cooperation. Certainly it is a matter of pain that things happened in the struggle, such as even the case of Stompie, and to the extent that we can play some facilitating role we would like to play that role.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hlengiwe Mkhize.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chair. I will ask that we go back to what was said by Mac Maharaj. You indicated, when the question of Winnie Mandela was raised, that at a certain point she was surrounded by the enemy and it was difficult to access her directly. What I would like to know from the delegation is whether given the fact that she was well-known as a member would you cooperate with us in terms of giving us more information around certain social formations like the Football Club, because when the leader started he referred to the case of Lola Sono, Siboniso Tshabalala, those are people who have appeared before the Commission linking - their parents have appeared linking the disappearances of their sons to the Club that I have referred to? So our request is to get your understanding of the Club, its structure, if what is said is true? How many people disappeared or died in the hands of that Club? Or whatever information which might enlighten our understanding of human rights violations in that context.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson we certainly will cooperate with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Hanif.

MR VALLY: I want to move on to another issue which is inter-organisational conflict. We've had a number of people who have come to our hearings complaining that in the mid-eighties there was very bitter fighting with deaths between supposedly ANC-supporting youth and AZAPO and PAC. This happened in Soweto, in Port Elizabeth, in other Eastern Cape towns, in Fort Beaufort, in Mpekweni in Paarl, and one example is two AZAPO members in Port Alfred allegedly killed. The question we are asking is did the ANC intervene in such conflicts either through its underground structures or through its propaganda to limit the violence that occurred and discourage its supporters from such confrontations?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes Sir. We sought to intervene because it has never been the policy of the ANC to foment inter-organisational rivalry amongst the oppressed. Our entire history, from the formation of the ANC was to seek to build unity between the organisations. Even in 1962 when President Mandela went out after we had launched the armed struggle, it is he who stood before the meeting of ...(indistinct) Addis Ababa and requested the recognition of the PAC and motivated for it. So we have always been clear that we need unity. And whatever our differences we have wanted to resolve those differences by discussion and by seeking to mobilise the people in such a way that they are not misled as to the nature of our oppression.
When the inter-organisational rivalry hit the scene in the mid-eighties we treated it as a development of the inter-organisational rivalry taking place in the context of heightened repression and brutality by the regime. And as a manifestation - as something happening in that context we sought to tell our cadres to intervene and to resolve the matter by discussion. But it was not very long after which we began to detect a pattern which indicated that the regime's national security management system was trying to manipulate these inter-organisational rivalries.
We have given you extensive reportage of our view of the information we've had which led us to what was happening, our understanding of what was happening in the Eastern Cape, what was happening with the vigilantes, and how in many instances, for example the case of Reverend Ebenezer Maqcina, it was initially portrayed as a fight between the Chartris(?) and AZAPO. Reverend Maqcina was part of the Joint Management Committee, brought there by the security forces, paid by the security forces and helped to equip himself with the vigilante team. So while we sought to address it in a political framework of being resolved by dialogue and discussion we became aware gradually that this inter-organisational rivalry was taking a form which was being exploited by the regime through injecting the vigilantes into it.
That presented us with new problems but we never gave up the hope of bringing about inter-organisational understanding. Even when we were legalised in 1990 one of the first major acts we undertook was to call the Patriotic Front Conference to which we had invited every democratic organisation to participate to establish a common front to bring about majority rule and democracy to our country. So that is the context in which we - we can give you where in our submission we have the names of the various vigilante groups that operated in various parts of the country where we have information clearly linking them to the regime's manoeuvres, but the roots of that rivalry descending into violence must be traced into the manipulation by the national security management system.
We did inform AZAPO, for example, about Revered Maqcina. Where we found that somebody was working with the enemy forces and part of this violence rivalry we sought to inform the other organisations about what was happening so that they could take their own steps in order to discipline their members.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Premier Phosa.

PREMIER PHOSA: Thank you Chairperson. Just for the record we will want to underline the fact that some of these organisations were part of what we called earlier on "counter-mobilisation" to undermine the UDF, the ANC, the PAC and AZAPO in some cases. And although we have set it out in our submission it's important that we all rather repeat it here. You had the Three Million Gang in the Free State which played a particular role which was very destabilising to organisations there. You had the Black Cats in Ermelo which even from the hearings in Nelspruit last week it was very clear you have someone saying I was paid by the police to kill an ANC member. I am a member of the IFP. You can see exactly the trend of trying to destabilise organisations. It's on your own record. You had the Masinyora(?), you had the A-Teams and then you had the AMAFRIKA, you had the Veduka(?), all of them part of the counter-mobilisation strategy of the police, to a very large extent, aimed at destabilising legitimate organisations of the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR VALLY: I am through with this section.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to find out from my colleagues - have you got? I must invite you Dr Mgojo.