Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: It was not a member of them trusting Mamasela, Koole or Piet Mogoai for that matter, it was them our commanders, Colonel Roelf Venter because it is them who asked the head office to come and help them sort out a problem, that's why we went there so it was not a matter of them trusting us, it's a matter of them asking help from us to help them.

MR LAMEY: Why do you think were you and Mogoai singled out among the other Askaris?

JOE MAMASELA: Most probably maybe the man who singled them out, because like I told you, Koole is the lapdog of Colonel Venter so he was an automatic choice and myself and Mogoai, it's probably because I did not drink and maybe I did some other missions, I had experience, I could be trusted, maybe that's why we were put here But with Koole definitely he was an automatic choice.  With us I cannot give you one explanation why we were chosen.

MR LAMEY: Why would Koole be an automatic choice?

JOE MAMASELA: He's the lapdog of his Colonel Venter.

MR LAMEY: So you were not the lapdog of Colonel Venter?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I have never been, I will never be and shall never allow myself to be.

MR LAMEY: Mr Koole must have portrayed or must have actually acted in a manner before or in front, in the presence of Colonel Venter, for you to say that he was a lapdog.

JOE MAMASELA: Like I've explained elaborately yesterday, Koole and Venter worked together for many years in Thabazimbi.  When Venter was transferred from Thabazimbi to Pretoria he took his lapdog with him.  When Venter who - I exposed Venter's activities, third force activities and Venter ran away from the police taking a package, his lapdog followed suit.

MR LAMEY: And Piet Mogoai?

CHAIRPERSON: What about him?

MR LAMEY: And Piet Mogoai, was he also the lapdog of Venter?

JOE MAMASELA: Who?

MR LAMEY: Piet Mogoai.

JOE MAMASELA: Piet Mogoai was a lapdog of Colonel Koos Vermeulen.

MR LAMEY: I'm asking you about Venter.

JOE MAMASELA: No, not Venter, Koos Vermeulen.  Koos Vermeulen and Venter, they worked together so they will always say: "Take my man, that's my man.  Take that man, that's my man".  Like myself, I was the lapdog of Brigadier Cronje.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought a short while ago you said you'd never be anybody's lapdog.

JOE MAMASELA: A lapdog of Colonel Venter, I know myself too.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see, I see.

MR LAMEY: Sorry, whose lapdog did you say you were there?

JOE MAMASELA: Of Brigadier Cronje.

MR LAMEY: So were you not coerced and oppressed by Brigadier Cronje while you served under his command?

JOE MAMASELA: I became his lapdog because I had to ingratiate myself to him so that I can survive like I am surviving today.  Had I not done that I would have long been killed.

MR LAMEY: Was that not necessary to do that at Vlakplaas?

JOE MAMASELA: Brigadier Cronje was at Vlakplaas, what do you mean?  He was at Vlakplaas.

MR LAMEY: Oh I see, so already at Vlakplaas you became his lapdog?

JOE MAMASELA: Definitely.  For survival, yes I became his lapdog.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, do I remember correctly that you stated under evidence previously that you arrived in Port Elizabeth approximately on the 3rd ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what are we doing about this question of lapdogs, what point are me making out of it?  Because it is hanging, we are just asked and told, lots of questions are asked about who is whose lapdog and all that and while we are still listening then we move to something else.  What is the point that is being made here?

MR LAMEY: Perhaps I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Or were you worried about your client being described as a lapdog?  Or were you trying to make the point that your client is not a lapdog?

MR LAMEY: Well, I'll come back to that Mr Chairman, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's finalise it, I don't think we should go on like this.  If your client's version is that he is not a lapdog then let's put it to him and say to him that Mr so and so will deny that he was a lapdog,  at least then the point is made and at least we will know why all these many questions about the issue of lapdog.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, you also said in your evidence that, and I take it you referred in the direction of Mr Koole yesterday when you said that, that the permanent policemen such as Koole were also used to keep a watch over the Askaris, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: That was definitely part of their job description.

MR LAMEY: So they were more in the camp and absorbed by a security, white security policemen and the system than the Askaris, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, they were what I would classify as the: "house niggers".

MR LAMEY: What do you mean by that?

JOE MAMASELA: Exactly what we have defined now.

MR LAMEY: What do you mean by saying: "house niggers"?

JOE MAMASELA: They were completely incorporated into the system of the whites and they did it willingly.

MR LAMEY: Bearing in mind that you were oppressed and you acted and you were self a victim, you must have had feelings of vengeance towards the white security policemen and the black permanent policemen which you described as: "house niggers".

JOE MAMASELA: I'm not a vengeful man by nature, I'm not vengeful and I'm gong to demonstrate that very late, after you're finished, that I'm not a vengeful person.  I'm not a vindictive person.

CHAIRPERSON: I think let's leave it there Mr Mamasela. If he wants to know more about that he will ask you.

MR LAMEY: But with all these years of oppression and the fact that you were a victim, did you know hate the security policemen for that and the black security policemen who were part and parcel of that?

JOE MAMASELA: In the initial stages when I went to the African National Congress to join them I hated the system, I hated the system for what it stood for when I left this country to receive military training.
	When I came back I still had that hatred but when my own commander, my own Transvaal ...[indistinct] commander, Siko Makopo sold me out on a platter to these boers then I started to do some re-introspection about who is the real enemy of the black people.  I found that the real enemy of the black people were black people themselves, not necessarily white people.  The blacks themselves are the real enemy of themselves.

MR LAMEY: But did your feeling then towards the white security policemen and the white system that the day represented, did that change?

JOE MAMASELA: It couldn't change, it worsened because I was tortured, savaged by them, how can it change?

MR LAMEY: Did you not hate them for that?

JOE MAMASELA: Obviously you cannot love a man who tortures you and punches at your testicles and put the electronic shocks at you, would you love that type of a person?  He's an animal, you cannot love him.  You cannot expect that type of a man who does that to me.

MR LAMEY: And you say that you realised that there were lots of enemies among black people, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: Enemies what?

MR LAMEY: You realised, after you had been betrayed, that there's lot's of enemies among ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: No, don't put words into my mouth that I do not say.  If you do not hear me properly, you must ask me: "Mr Mamasela, can you please repeat"?  I said it then dawned in my mind that the black man's real enemy is another black man.

MR LAMEY: Yes.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.  Not that there were many enemies among the black people.  We are the worst oppressors of ourselves.

MR LAMEY: Yes.

JOE MAMASELA: We sell each other like hell.

MR LAMEY: And a person like Mamasela, ag, a person like Mr Koole who was a permanent force member would you regard him as one of those enemies of the black people?