Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-07

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.  During the meeting with George Matanzima, Ron Reid-Daly who was a General in the Transkei Army was on holiday, and Matanzima then said that they cancel his holiday and bring him back.  Colonel Hall and van Rooyen, who was also one of my officers, informed him of the plan and then discussed actions to discredit Lennox Sebe.

MR KNOETZE: Just to put it quite clearly, you also said it earlier, both of these people were your staff officers and they also worked under your command and you take responsibility for what they did here?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR KNOETZE: What is in paragraph 38?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: On the 28th of October, myself, Colonel Hall, van Rooyen, Deysel, that was my Group Commanding Officer in East London, we had an appointment with Lennox Sebe and he expressed his dissatisfaction with the relations between Transkei and Ciskei.  I could perhaps just add that the emotions were running high at that stage.  I just asked that there shouldn't be any violent actions and then I undertook that we would increase our forces in this corridor area, to prevent a direct confrontation between the Ciskei and Transkei.

MR KNOETZE: Did you do it?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, I did that.  I sent armoured vehicles into this corridor.  We also did air patrols in the corridor.

MR KNOETZE: Paragraph 39 refers to a meeting held on the 1st of November '86, with representatives of the Ciskei, Transkei and yourself.  What happened there?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: If I can remember correctly, it was a meeting in East London and the Joint Management Board members of Transkei, Ciskei - it was the first time that they got together, I was Chairperson.  Perhaps I can just say that we always met separately once a month.  It was only myself with Ciskei and then myself with the Transkei.  So this was a meeting where the three parties came together and the problems that arose were discussed, and trying to solve the problems, trying to say that it would be done in a peaceful way.

MR KNOETZE: Then we get to paragraph 40.  This refers to a meeting on the 10th of November '86, between yourself, Ron Reid-Daly, Namba Sebe, Charles Sebe, van Rooyen, van der Merwe ...
...(end of tape)
... Mesikaba Now before I put questions to you, could I just refer you to Annexures A and B.  Annexure A is the affidavit submitted by van Rooyen and he says at page 2, paragraph 5, the following.  Now that was after he indicated that he was present at the meeting and that he was a scribe.
"Regarding the wording of the report, I want to indicate the following:  The meeting was held in English and the words that were used in my report were my own translation of the English words which were used by those present."
Is that correct, that the meeting was held in English?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR KNOETZE: And that van Rooyen was only there to take the minutes?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, he took notes.  It wasn't a very formal meeting, and he took notes regarding what we said there.

MR KNOETZE: Now the word in Afrikaans "uithaal", paragraph 1.C.1.C, means that Kwani had to be removed from his sphere of influence, it was not meant to mean that he should be killed.  Now that is a reference to his own notes.  It's a reference to what he wrote in this paragraph in his own handwriting.  It's an annexure to this document.  He continues in paragraph 5.2
"The word "uithaal" in paragraph 1.C.1.C of the report means that Kwani Sebe has to be removed from his sphere of influence.  It was not intended to mean that he had to be killed."
Paragraph 5.3:
"The words "permanently removed" in paragraph 1.C.1.D means that he never had to become involved in Xhosa politics again, he had to be totally discredited.  It never meant that he had to be killed."
Paragraph 5.4:
"The words "Lennox had to be taken out", on page 4 of the report, also meant that he had to be taken out of the political sphere."
Paragraph 5.5:
"The words "Namba Sebe has to be removed from the scene", on page 4, also meant that he had to disappear from the political scene, the Xhosa scene."
	The words "the members on which Lennox places his support, on page 4, that that should also mean that he should be taken out of the political sphere by for example, being discredited.  It did not mean that these specific members had to be killed.  
	That is also what is meant by the word "taken out" in that paragraph.
	"The words "indien nie vir altyd opgesluit nie, moet hulle verdwyn", paragraph 1.F.4, page 5, should mean that Kwani Sebe and his second in command should disappear out of the Ciskei.  It was not intended that they should be killed."
Paragraph 6:
In conclusion, I confirm that during the meeting at Mesikaba no decision was taken that any person had to be killed.  And in this regard it must be mentioned that I then read the affidavit of van der Merwe and his view of what had happened at the meeting, that I confirm that."
General, the statement by Isak Ferdinand van der Merwe in Exhibit B, he refers on page 4, paragraph 7, to the meetings.  Can you just turn to that page?  He starts explaining it and then a lengthy exposition until he gets to paragraph 12, his page 6.  Then he says:
"In my presence there weren't any plans made to kill any person in any way.  I would not have not become involved in such an offence in order to kill someone.  There was a request made to me during the meeting to monitor the political situation in the Ciskei, to monitor and measure the political campaign and I did that by means of media reports and informants."
Now you hear what these people say, is this also how you can recollect it?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, it is.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Advocate, can I just ask one or two questions on this?  That is regarding paragraph 5.5, about Namba Sebe, what was the problem about him?  I see it says there he had to be taken away from the political scene.  Was there a problem about him?  Namba Sebe, what was the problem about him?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chair, Lennox Sebe was planning to attack his half-brother, Namba Sebe.  Namba expressed the fear in this regard.  There were two ways of thinking, one was that we should pretend that he was abroad, somewhere overseas, so that Lennox Sebe could stop with these attacks or his purported attacks on Namba.
	And the other method was that we should go and hide him somewhere on a farm.  And I think it's the latter that was intended here, that he should no longer be seen in the public spotlight, he was quite an outspoken man, but that he should rather maintain a low profile.  It was in any event to place him outside of Lennox Sebe's reach.

MR KNOETZE: And in this regard, can I also take you back to Exhibit B, paragraph 9 on page 5, where Brigadier van der Merwe says the following
"As an alternative for the Ciskei Government, an existing resistance group would be developed after a Xhosa resistance movement.  And it was also suggested that the following persons were in the way of the proposed planning and that they should be removed from the political dispensation:  Lennox Sebe, Kwani Sebe and Colonel Zibi."
Do you confirm that?  Does that also strengthen what you've just said?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

ADV SANDI: He has answered my second question which I was going to ask, about Colonel Zibi.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you, Chair.
	Again, could you tell us how it came about that this particular group of people met at Mesikaba?