Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-08

MR KNOBEL: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is in fact true, I was originally considering to ask you at the end of the questions, unless a question would come up which would be addressed in that affidavit, but my only request would be that you do allow Mr Kennedy to read that into the record at least.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we should play it that way, Mr Vally, because I wouldn't like to interpose his evidence with that of Mr Kennedy.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair.  General Knobel, we're still looking at the 24th of January 1994 minute.  I have two further questions on that minute, this is the Co-ordinating Committee minutes.

MR KNOBEL: Yes, thank you.

MR VALLY: Paragraph 3, the second sentence, it says something about the South African Narcotics Bureau investigating the dealing in controlled substances and that a report has been forwarded to the Attorney-General whose reaction is awaited.  Can you tell us what this was about?

MR KNOBEL: You asked me that question earlier, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Yes, I'd asked you the first part about the monsters, the samples, this is the second part.

MR KNOBEL: No but you see I explained to you in my testimony earlier, it was this morning or was it yesterday, that clearly the handling of restricted substances was open to possible criminal charges.

MR VALLY: I'm sorry General Knobel, you did deal with it at that level.

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: What I should do is put to you, was there at this stage a suggestion or an investigation into the illegal dealing in restricted drugs?

MR KNOBEL: No, not as far as I know.

MR VALLY: Fine.  The same document, paragraph 5(e), it talks about certain hardware will not be made available now and will maybe made available if needed, what's the hardware being referred to there?

MR KNOBEL: Mr Vally, I'm not a computer expert, but the information on the CD roms, the technology available to access that information is explained in a floppy which is contained inside the small safe, and the hardware that you require to access that information is what is being referred to here.

MR VALLY: Thanks.  Alright, let's go on to annexure I, I just have a few questions there.  Let me first refer you to paragraph 52 of a document drafted by you, dated 24 September 1993.

MR KNOBEL: Yes, I've got it.

MR VALLY: Do you have that?

MR KNOBEL: Yes, thank you.

MR VALLY: In paragraph 52, the last sentence, it appears as if you're saying there that from the 1st of March 1988 you had personal control, or you exercised personal control over Brigadier Basson and you confirmed his appointment as Director of Research and Development in your Head Office on the 1st of October 1988.  Would that be the position, even subsequent to that with the operation of Project Coast, that you exercised personal control over Brigadier Basson?

MR KNOBEL: No, Mr Vally, I'd already explained I think also to Dr Randera's question, that I was concerned in '87 when I became aware of the fact that he was being utilised in a consultant role by all sorts of persons, as I've indicated also in this document, without the Surgeon-General being informed or being requested or being asked whether his services could be made available.  Now I'm appointed the Surgeon-General, at that time he was still under operation control of Special Forces, and I wanted to rectify that position, or at least improve the situation to such an extent that I would have more direct control over him, so I transferred him back, after all he was under command of the Surgeon-General, the terminology in Army command terms is the command affiliation which existed before I became Surgeon-General was he was under command of the Surgeon-General, but under operational control of Special Forces.  That is a military term.  I changed that command affiliation by saying, I'm not transferring you back from Special Forces to my Headquarters so that I would have more direct control over you.  But the position that he occupied, Director of Research and Development was not only pertaining to this project, that was only one project that he was involved in, it also meant all other deployments of the Medical Service, particularly the employments of Seventh Medical Battalion Group as a quick reaction force.  Any other research, any other developments within the Medical Service, whether it was pharmaceutical companies who came to do clinical trials at our Military Hospitals, or whatever the case may be, he would co-ordinate that and would control that.  Any - that type - any research of our veterinary science components in the Kruger National Park with regards to the ...(indistinct) which Professor Hofmeyer gave us a lot of information about.  Maybe you don't know it, but in our Kruger National Park we have a very serious threat to our animal population with tuberculosis and foot and mouth disease, and things like that, and we have veterinary officers deployed there to support the Department of ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: General Knobel, just, sorry ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: ... we did all of that work and I had more direct control over it.

MR VALLY: Alright and did it refer to also the time when he was the project officer of Project Coast?

MR KNOBEL: No, sir, Project Coast was still run exactly as I explained to you before.  It is written in this document and is explained in this document in the further paragraphs following.

MR VALLY: Fine.  Let's just move on to paragraph 53.

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: You say that Brigadier Basson was accountable to the Co-ordinating Committee for the management and development of the project.

MR KNOBEL: And the running of the project.

MR VALLY: Running of the project, I beg your pardon.  That includes research, development and production, and his activities were approved by that body.  The situation regarding the operational application of products delivered by the project was different or separate.

MR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: In this regard Brigadier Basson was tasked by the user or the person who gave the orders.

MR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: And his activities are authorised by the person who gave the orders, and then you say the persons who gave orders were the following,

MR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Have I interpreted that vaguely correctly.

MR KNOBEL: Yes, I must say vaguely, it's not particularly clearly put here.  Mr Vally, Brigadier Basson was considered the expert on the utilisation of CR.

MR VALLY: Right.

MR KNOBEL: CR is the product that I'm referring to here.  If you go back through the history that was really the final product that we ended up with because we had already then stopped the research on incapacitating agents, destroyed it and so on.

MR VALLY: Let me just understand this, you're saying certain aspects relating to the project are under the authority of the Co-ordinating Committee?

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: You are saying in respect of, and the word is operational usage, "aanwending"?

MR KNOBEL: That's correct, usage.

MR VALLY: Of the products developed, or "gelewer" developed by the project.

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: The authorisation for those aspects would be by whoever gave him the order or the instruction?

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now this is what I'm trying to get clarity on, and then you say the people who gave the instructions were the following, and you've got from (a) to (g).  Let's look at (g) first, Director-General: National Intelligence Service, now that was, I assume, Dr Neels Barnard.

MR KNOBEL: Yes, I believe so, no, but here maybe we should get the advice from National Intelligence Agency.

MR VALLY: Well however it was ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: It was Neels Barnard to begin with, and I think later on it was Mr Louw is it not, I think so.

MR VALLY: Yes.  Whoever it was, I mean National Intelligence Service would give instructions about usage of CR gas?