Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.  I have just heard something to this effect that would you be surprised that there were no informers within the Mandela Football Club, as a matter of fact, I don't know whether the TRC ...(intervention)

MR PIGOU: I think Mr Semenya I said would you be surprised if there were no......

MR SEMENYA: (...indistinct)

MR PIGOU: Yes that's what I said.

MR SEMENYA: Ja but on what basis do you put the question?

MR PIGOU: I am putting a theoretical proposition to him that on the basis of his experience when you have someone like that in that situation would it be surprising if there weren't informers being used around.

MR SEMENYA: But Chairperson my difficulty is this.  I am surprised that a TRC official does not put the question, would you be surprised that there were informers, every time why state it in the negative.  I mean it represents a particular position and I think the responsibility is to be as neutral as possible.

MR PIGOU: I think we have tried to demonstrate that today Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Erasmus you say in your report, in your statement rather, page 4 paragraph 6,
"This agent has a mass of conservative contacts internationally including politicians".
that's in the middle of the paragraph.  And you go on to say-
"Almost senior journalists, media representatives, intelligence contacts and so forth - almost immediately "dirt"  on the ANC and including matters relating to Mrs Mandela's activities and other relevant matters began to appear in the international press and of greater importance in the Stratcom sense were forwarded ultimately to inter alia Conservative Party members and the British Prime Minister".
 Now we know that Emma Nicholson was a member of the Conservative Party in the UK, do you know if she was one of these Conservative Party members in Britain.

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I cannot recall, I have a list of names that I received at that time from the agent, a faxed list which I have given to the TRC and which is I believe in the TRC offices in Cape Town, I cannot state with any certainty if Miss Nicholson's name is on that list or not.  I cannot remember all the persons on that.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson again I am going to have for this list which has been given to the TRC and which may be of assistance to our task and we are not getting it.  And maybe I must request that really we be furnished with all documents relating to these hearings.  It becomes very difficult to execute my mandate.

DR BORAINE: I note that - what I'd like to say to you doesn't help you very much but you are in very good company, I haven't seen it either.  We will make the necessary instructions.  Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Now are you able to help us with the concept of informers, now we know that Jerry Richardson was an informer within the Mandela Football Club ...(intervention)

MR RICHARDS: May I object there, it must be recorded that Mr Richardson denies and disputes that he's an informer and it has not been proved.  For my learned colleague to make an assertion of fact is most irregular.

DR BORAINE: Do you want to rephrase that?

MR SEMENYA: I will rephrase it.  Now we know according to the information of the national Commissioner of Police ...(intervention)

MR RICHARDS: The national Commissioner of Police has offered no proof whatsoever and again it's an over-statement and a misrepresentation to which I object.

DR BORAINE: Mr Richards would you please conduct your enquiries through me rather than directly to your learned colleague.

MR RICHARDS: I apologise Mr Chairperson

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Please rephrase it.

MR SEMENYA: The national Commissioner of Police has told the Commission that he has information that Jerry Richardson was paid R10 000 as a police informant, now if that information is correct how would he handle the information he has with his handler?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I think each situation regarding an informer was unique.  You had different categories - I must first maybe just point out to you, he had two way of recruiting informers, two basic ways. Firstly a direct approach where I would, for example approach somebody and say I am from the security branch I would like you to work for us.  That would be the one type of scenario.
 We also made wide use of a tactic which was known as false-flag type of operations where you would pretend to be somebody else and then approach somebody and that person would be the unsuspecting victim of giving information to a person that wasn't what they believed that person to be.
 And then on the informer network itself I cannot comment on a sum of R10 000, it sounds a lot of money to my experience.  Our top agents during the time that I was involved in Stratcom received expense monies and the highest salary that I am aware of is the one offered to the principal agent in Britain at the time when we brought him to South Africa and that R6 000 a month apart from his expenses. I cannot comment on why somebody would be given R10 000 I really cannot make an assumption.

MR SEMENYA: Yes the assistance I was probably aiming to obtain was if an informer has information that an offence, particularly an offence like murder is going to be committed, how would you expect that informer to handle that information?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: He would give that information obviously to his handler and be rewarded accordingly.

MR SEMENYA: So if it turns out that Jerry Richardson knew that Dr Abu-Baker Asvat was going to be killed, it is reasonable to make the inference that he would have given this information to his handler?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I am quite certain with a serious matter I mean information like that would have been conveyed to his handler.

MR SEMENYA: If we ...(intervention)

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Although I don't know, I must just add, I don't know anything about that particular murder or the situation.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, I am clearly soliciting what I would later state to the reasonable probabilities.  Would it be a reasonable probability that if he had committed the murders like that of Stompie he would have reported those type of things to his handler?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I am quite certain that he would.

MR SEMENYA: And if he committed the type of murders that I am told he is applying for amnesty for he would have reported those types of things to his handler?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I should imagine so.

MR SEMENYA: Now one of the activities of Stratcom was to disseminate a lot of pamphlets is that correct?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Pamphleteering was a major part of Stratcom activities.

MR SEMENYA: And we recall one dissemination of information depicting Mrs Madikizela-Mandela hugging with the Chairperson of the TRC Archbishop Tutu where it was suggested that there was a romantic relationship between Archbishop Tutu and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, would that have been a typical Stratcom activity?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: That type of action would have been a typical Stratcom activity.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions Chairperson.

DR BORAINE: Mr Richards.

MR RICHARDS: Yes I apologise for not addressing you.  Mr Erasmus as you must have gathered I represent Mr Jerry Richardson.  Now in your evidence-in-chief you made the assertion that the Mandela households were under 24 hour a day surveillance, and were one of the most closely observed and analysed pieces of information that you could get, is that not correct?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR RICHARDS: Now it is also correct to say that you were the person to whom the information was fed?