Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

RUSSELL ALLY: Then  we were speaking about after 1989 because the ANC was only unbanned in February 1990.  So we're speaking about after 1989, but at the time 1989, where you known to be politically outspoken,  why would they have come and picked you up in particular and accused you and tortured you ?  What reason would they have had?

MRS MOITOI: They wanted me to force me to be a member of Boputhatswana, but when I denied, they said, which means you are part of those people who are burning houses.

RUSSELL ALLY: But I'm still trying to understand now, I hope you don't mind.  That was when they actually had already picked you up, not so, that they tried to force  you to make a false statement.  That was after they picked you up, but what I'm trying to understand, why would they have gone to you in particular, before you were picked up, why would they have singled you out to be, to be, to be picked up.  Did you have a - were you known to be a political activist ?  Had you spoken out against certain things ?  Were you friendly with people who were considered to be political activists ?  Why, why would they have gone for you ?  That's what I could try to understand.

MRS MOITOI: When they came to me they came to me with a person whom we were elected together to collect money, which means, they came with somebody who knew  where I was staying.

RUSSELL ALLY: The money that you were collecting this was for, this was for a pension fund, but you were accused of collecting for other purposes ?

MRS MOITOI: We were collecting two rands from each person or each house.

RUSSELL ALLY: In your village ?

MRS MOITOI: That's true.  In our area.

RUSSELL ALLY: And  this money was going to be used for what purpose ?

MRS MOITOI: We wanted to build a hall with that money so that when they received their pension, their pension grants, they'd be able to gather there, when the government agencies come to give them their pensions.

RUSSELL ALLY: Special, was there a special committee that was appointed to collect this money ?  Is that, is that how it worked or ... ?

MRS MOITOI: That's true.

RUSSELL ALLY: And this committee had a treasurer and, and proper records were kept and everything like that.  Is that how it worked ?

MRS MOITOI: That's true.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, the person who came with the police, was the, was also part of this committee collecting this money ?  Yes ?

MRS MOITOI: That's true.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now what.  Did this person, did this person give the police false information or what what was going on ?

MRS MOITOI: I didn't know how they approached her or him, but to me they came, because he was directing the police to my house, but he left  in the police van and the police came on their own.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was this person also tortured or any, anything happen to this person ?

MRS MOITOI: Yes, he was tortured.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

MRS MOITOI: Thank you, Sir.

MS SEROKE: When you were testifying, you said, you were under Chief Sebogodi.

MRS MOITOI: Yes, that's true.

MS SEROKE: You didn't know that Mr Moilo is now the Chief of your area.

MRS MOITOI: Yes, that's true.

MS SEROKE: What were the stands of Chief Sebogodi ?

MRS MOITOI: We took him, we regarded him as our Chief, as we knew that, that he, he was our Chief.

MS SEROKE: When they came to you, they saw you because you were collecting monies from people.  Were they young people or was it the whole community ?

MRS MOITOI: As we said we were the youth, we had our book and the old people had their own book.

MS SEROKE: When they did what you don't want to tell us about, did you go to the police to report what they did to you ?

MRS MOITOI: I didn't even dare try because I still going to appear to the same people.

MS SEROKE: Did you tell the doctor what they did to you ?

MRS MOITOI: Yes, I did explain to the doctor and when I came back, I found the road block, then they teared up those papers.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Johanna, sorry, just a few more questions and then we're finished.  I just want to understand  your perspective of what was going on between Chief Sebogodi and Chief  Molilwa.

MRS MOITOI: Repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Conflict that was taking place in the area at the time.

MRS MOITOI: The conflict was brought about by the police because they said to us Adrian Molilwa is the Chief and we as a community, we didn't know that Adrian Molilwa was the Chief.  We know that when a new Chief is introduced, the whole community  is invited  to be informed about that, but I knew that, at that time the Chief was LM Sebogodi.  Then I was even given a third tale about the history of Sebogodi, then I knew that Sebogodi was the Chief and I, there was no way in which I couldn't understand that he was the Chief.  I told them straight in their faces that Sebogodi is the Chief  of  Legobo village.

CHAIRPERSON: And the association between incorporation of the area into Boputhatswana was that, did that feature in this whole discussion that you're talking about now ?

MRS MOITOI: Yes, it did surface.

CHAIRPERSON: The Chief was against, Chief Sebogodi was against incorporation whereas the other Chief seemed happy to go along with it ?

MRS MOITOI: I would say, Chief  Molilwa, yes, agreed, because all meetings were held in his place, so which means he agreed that we should be incorporated.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said earlier on that there were many houses that were burnt down.  Whose houses were being burnt down, and by whom ?  Were they supporters of one faction against, or another faction, or was it police officers whose houses were being burnt down ?

MRS MOITOI: The house, I understand about the incidents, was the house belonging to Mr Selomi,  when they inspected the damage it was found that it was the police who did that.

CHAIRPERSON: My last question is to do with the, this collection of money that you were, that you were involved in for the hall.  Was that purely on a voluntary basis ?

MRS MOITOI: Yes, I volunteered because after seeing the suffering of  old age people, because they were staying in the sun and in the rain.

CHAIRPERSON: That's part of it but  the actual collecting of money from other people, did  they also offer the money  voluntarily ?

MRS MOITOI: Yes, they were volunteering  in their contributions.

CHAIRPERSON: Now  that brings to the end all the questioning.  Is there anything else you would like to say ?

MRS MOITOI: You meant to continue ?

CHAIRPERSON: If there's anything else that you want to add to what's been said already.

MRS MOITOI: To continue,  I would wish that those people who did all, who were victims as myself,  their names should appear and that they should be taken care of by the Truth Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Johanna.   I just want to thank you for coming here to-day.  Please don't feel that all these questions that we've been posing you is to make life more difficult to you.  It's just that we want to understand the context in which it took place.  It doesn't take away what happened to you, both at the camp and at the police station and we thank you to-day for coming and sharing those experiences with us and we hear what you've said in terms of the needs of victims to be recognised.  Thank you very much.

MRS MOITOI: Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I said I would keep people informed about statement taking.  There are people at the back of the hall who are taking statements and if you want to have a statement taken, please, if you'll proceed to the back of the hall.  Thank you very much.