bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-13

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, ours is to investigate the matter and take your requests before the President.  However, right now we would like to thank you for the evidence that you have given before the Commission.
 You look a dignified mother in the Xhoza community.  What you have told us today of your torture, even as an elderly lady, we've heard about his form of torture where a plastic bag would be put over a person's head for suffocation, it is painful to hear that this happened to you as well.
 Also the fact that this matter was discussed in a court that was false where you had no representation.   In this country this was common.  Thank you for having come here today and giving us a clear story, divulging all to a point where you wept.
 We trust that even before (indistinct) today.  It is sad that Sipho Ntebe passed away, because we would have liked to thank him, because even amongst the police of Stutterheim at the time, someone was kind enough to show you a bit of kindness.
 Thank you, you may step down.  We would ask Mr Redpath to come forward please.  Is Qalisele here?  He is definitely not here Mr Redpath.

MR REDPATH: Mr Chairperson, my response on behalf of the implicated person, Vusumzi Kule is the same as I've given twice this morning.
 To indicate the witness' version has now expanded to include a minimum of two other policemen who were at least present when she was allegedly suffocated.  That would render them to be alleged perpetrators as well, we would need to investigate that.
 Mr Chairperson, I do however have some documentary information for the Commission in respect of the witness Zamkana's allegation that she was assaulted and the manner of the assault, the alleged perpetrator was charged for this offence, he was tried before a court of law, a proper court of law and he was acquitted.
 I have the necessary correspondence in relation to that case which I would seek to make available to the Commission as of today.
 I have nothing further at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for that assistance Mr Redpath and thank you for your appearance before the Commission today.  That concludes the matters for today, does it?

MR REDPATH: I have one more.

CHAIRPERSON: One more after lunch?    We have to adjourn for lunch now.  I am sorry to be detaining you further, but we will take that as the first matter after lunch.

MR REDPATH: As the Committee pleases Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We adjourn until two o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS UNTIL TWO O'CLOCK: .
Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

MR SANDI: Mrs Mathyholo, do you have a request before the Commission.

MRS MATYOLO: Yes, I do Sir.  First of all I would like  his children to be educated because they did not even receive a grant.  Secondly, after Zalisile's death, at home we suffered.  His children come to me asking for money but I'm not working.  I'm not employed.  I cannot afford to support them.  Thirdly, there is a street named after him in Zwelithsa but I would like a stadium to be built under his name so that we can remember him.  He was not buried in a proper way.  My mother went after a week so that she can just see his grave.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mrs Matyholo.
I will now hand over to the Chairperson.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Matyolo, I don't think there are any more questions.  It was very painful for us to listen to your story but we thank you for coming here and presenting the story to us.
 Mr Sandi has already said that your story is a very sad and tragic story but we thank you for coming forward to tell your story to this country, so that we cannot forget people who sacrificed their lives. 
We have noted your requests about your brother's children and about the stadium you mentioned.  We will look at your requests so that when we compile our report, his name will be mentioned as one of the people who are to be honoured because they took part in the struggle of this country.  Thank you Mrs Matyholo, you may go back to your seat .
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

DR RANDERA: Sorry, but there were other people who were given guns by the police?

MS DITHEJANE: We would see that when we have our political activities, we would see police handing guns to other people to help them, but on that day it was done by the police people themselves.

DR RANDERA: In other places that we have been to, vigilante groupings were formed, who were supporting the councillors or maybe supporting other people.  Were there vigilante groupings in Tswelelang at the time?

MS DITHEJANE: I beg your pardon?  May you repeat your question, Sir?

DR RANDERA: I will repeat my question.  Were there any vigilante groupings, these people whom the police were giving guns to, were they in opposition or were they part of another political party or who were they?

MS DITHEJANE: Yes, I know they are there.

DR RANDERA: Do you know who they were at that time?

MS DITHEJANE: No, Sir.

DR RANDERA: I don't have any more questions to ask you. I will hand over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Prof Meiring?

PROF MEIRING: Just one question, if you don't mind.  You mentioned the Rev Linkwane whose shop they wanted to burn down.  Did the family Linkwane still live in the township?

MS DITHEJANE: Yes, they are still there.

PROF MEIRING: Have you talked to them or have your parents talked to them about the incident?

MS DITHEJANE: No, this Mr Linkwane, he used to come to our house and he doesn't even come to my father, coming to talk about things. My father was not anxious to ask him about
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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that incident, because he said what has happened has happened.  So he took it that way.  They are friendly and they are still friendly now.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Sis Puleng, your dad and all the family members for coming to talk to us. We sympathise with you.  We are weak and we don't have enough words with which to encourage you and comfort you.  But you may know that even when you give evidence you are among people who are your friends and who understand your experience. It is only God who can encourage and give you the courage and the power to help you. This is the same God whom we asked that he should help us.  We will try and find out the truth about this incident so that we can know exactly who are responsible for this incident.  But we leave you with these words; that when you look around you will see that these people did not sacrifice for nothing.  Because today we are a different people.  We have our democratic leaders whom we have elected ourselves, because of your sister's contribution.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-25

DR RANDERA: Good morning and welcome, Mr Haffejjee.  Perhaps you would like to introduce the person who is with you, first.

M S HASSIAN HAFFEJJE: Yes, it is Mr Ahmad Moolla, from Bloemhof.

DR RANDERA: I welcome him too.  Mr Haffejjee, Prof Piet Meiring who is sitting there is going to be helping you in telling your story.  But before he does that, would you please stand to take the oath.

M S HASSIAN HAFFEJJE: (Duly sworn, states).

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mr Haffejje.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Haffejjee, from my side too, very welcome.  I hope that you find this a worthwhile experience today here in the hall.  You have a very interesting story, of three chapters to tell us, starting in 1964 and then in the early Eighties and then the very well-known incident, nationally as well as internationally, which happened during the rent boycott in Bloemhof.  But before we start with the story with the three chapters, please tell us a little bit about yourself.  We are interested in your family, in you yourself, in the work you do.  We want to know who is talking to us today.

M S HASSIAN HAFFEJJE: Thank you.  I would ask the honourable Commission here, first and foremost, that please excuse me
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2 H M S HAFFEJJE
or my voice, because I am suffering at the moment with a bit of largyngitis and the doctor's orders and medication, but if there is a thing or two which will not be possibly clear, I will repeat that again, if you ask me. Thank you.
 You asked me about my family.  I am married, first and foremost. I am 53 years of age.  Married a local girl from Bloemhof, Emma (indistinct). I have a son and two daughters.  The son just got married last month. I am a grandfather too. I have a month old bundle of joy, and my daughters are in Johannesburg.  The eldest one is studying Media Communications at Rau University, second year PA. The smaller one is at Mayfair High School. 
 I run a small business in Salamat, that is the Indian area of Bloemhof.

DR RANDERA: Can we please settle down, people.  Excuse me, can I ask people who are talking at the end of the hall to come and either sit down or can they please go and talk outside the hall.  I am sorry, Mr Haffejje.

M S HASSIAN HAFFEJJE: Thank you.  And what more can I say? I live in a small town, was highly conservative then, up to two years back, perhaps.  Interesting times, small river, small business, small circle of friends.  We have a community of 50 only in salmat, a small township, Indians.  It is less today, of course.  But then fortunately, we have a lot of people of other shades, if I may say that, and the blossoming little non-racial community, showing out the real new South Africa.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.  And now we have placed you and now you have a story of three sections to tell us. Please do that.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-25

CHAIRPERSON: We ask Mamkgele Roselyn Koki to come to the podium, please.  Prof Meiring, while you are taking your seat, I would just like to welcome a number of other people who are here today.
 Mrs Mamkgele, good afternoon and welcome.

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: Good afternoon, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You too are from Schweizer-Reneke and you have a lady accompanying you this afternoon.  Would you like to introduce her to us, please?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: This is my sister, Joyce Sinogpyane.

CHAIRPERSON: I welcome her too.  Mrs Mamkgele,  Prof Piet Meiring, who is sitting over there, is going to be helping you in telling your story.  Before he does that, could you please stand to take the oath.

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Prof Meiring?

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Koki, is it all right if I address you as Mrs Koki, that is your surname?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: Yes.

PROF MEIRING: Well, a warm word of welcome from me too.  I do hope that you find that this is your moment to tell your story.  Just before I invite you to relate what happened to you on a number of occasions, please tell us a little bit
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 M R KOKI
about yourself, your husband, your children.  We would like to be able to place you.

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: I am Mamkgele Roselyn Koki from Schweizer-Reneke, I am a nurse at the local hospital for a period of 25 years now.  I had four children, three boys and one girl.   My husband passed away.

PROF MEIRING: When did your husband pass away?

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: He passed away last year on the 4th of April.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you so much.  Mrs Koki, you have a number of things to tell us about your assaults, about your arrest, about the petrol-bombing of your house and the murder of your son.  Those are very, very heavy things you are putting on the table,  but please, in your own words, tell us what happened to you on all those occasions.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-25

THOMAS MANTHATA: In regard to your child's death, as Dr Randera was trying to say, is that it is not something which falls within the ambit of the period of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  Those things which have happened KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
21 M R KOKI
in 1994 don't follow within the period of this Truth and Reconciliation Commission.    When we meet with the Human Rights Commission, maybe they will try to take your case, which they will take the case to where the Human Rights Commission.  I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mamkgele, I thank you for coming all the way from Schweizer-Reneke. Your life, as you say in your own statement has been shattered in the last six years, and I can understand, having listened to you today, that there are many strands to what has happened to you in the last six years.  We have noted very carefully what you have said to us.  We have listened very carefully and we will certainly come back to you in terms of whatever assistance the Commission can provide to you.  I thank you very much for coming today.

MAMKGELE ROSELYN KOKI: I thank you, Sir.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-24

ADV POTGIETER: All right. Perhaps - is that your mother who is with you?

GODFREY TEKO LESENYEHO: That's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Maybe she can help you.  Or has she also forgotten?

GODFREY TEKO LESENYEHO: She doesn't remember also.

ADV POTGIETER: Well, that's all right, thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Godfrey, thank you for coming to tell us your story.  We have noted that you say that there are medical records available and I think we will ask our reparation committee to make sure that they are able to access those immediately, so that an assessment can be made of what exactly your condition is, because it is problematic that you lost your sight gradually and now have lost your sight completely.  We will be looking into the matter and will see what we can do.
 Godfrey, thank you for coming, your story is a very painful one and in fact is part of the sacrifices that very many young people like yourself have made towards contributing towards the change we have seen in our country.  I would like to thank you and your mother for coming today.  Thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

LETLHOGONOLO C MAHUMAPELO: He doesn't have a child, and at the time he was unemployed.  He was a builder and where possible where he was able to build.  He was the one who was taking care of KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
6 L MAHUMAPELO
us, together with my mother.  I only have one uncle who is working and the other uncles are not working.  Our family is too big, it is an extended family.

PROF MEIRING: Was your uncle married?

LETLHOGONOLO C MAHUMAPELO: No, he was not married.

PROF MEIRING: The water problem, you said in your testimony that there were a few Whites who also understood your problem and helped you. Did I hear that correct?

LETLHOGONOLO C MAHUMAPELO: Yes, there were other Whites who were understanding and they were able to give us water.

PROF MEIRING: Were those farmers around or who were those Whites who helped you with the water?

LETLHOGONOLO C MAHUMAPELO: They were not farmers, they were Whites who were staying near our area.  That is the area where we passed when we went to town.  So they were co-operating with the fellow Blacks who were staying nearby.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Sir.  We are with you, together with your family.  May God be with you and strengthen you.  We hear that this case has not yet been completed, it is just hanging in the air.  Maybe because there is a Commission, we may try to see how can we help in regard to the case.  We thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

CHAIRPERSON: It is not easy to know what you say you tried to comfort people like yourself, Mr and Mrs Majova.  What amazes me is that you look so normal and when you speak it doesn't seem unusual for you, you just mention that, you
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
11 MR MAJOVA
just say "I was harassed", and it is only when Commissioner Sooka tried to find out what the form of harassment is, that you mention that you were in fact tortured.  You haven't mentioned this as being extraordinary.  I myself and I think of all us kept saying that our country is in fact an extraordinary country, that it can have people like yourselves, people who can remain whole, despite this deep pain. I mean, it is not only that you lost a son, you don't know where your son is buried and you have had to run around trying to find out the truth and you still haven't really got the truth and you are hoping that the Commission may be able to assist you.  But we just want to say we thank God for people like you, that you haven't gone mad.  You have not even said here, I mean, all you are asking for, is to be able to find the remains of your son so that you can give him a proper burial. You have not spoken about anger. You have not spoken about taking revenge.  Maybe people in other communities get to take it too much for granted.  I want to say thank you, we want to say thank you to God for people like you, that we can have people who have suffered as much as you have suffered and that you do not seem to have a desire for revenge.  So we pray that God will continue to strengthen you and that God will help us in the Commission to find out the truth about your son, and that the one thing that you long for you may be able to give your son a decent burial.  Thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-25

DR RADERA: Thank you, Mrs Mangwele.  Thank you.  Can we
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
6 N W MANGWELE
please settle down?
 Mrs Mangwele, you know about three or four weeks ago I sat as part of the panel listening to what happened in Boipatong, which is in the Vaal.   There people were not as fortunate, many people died on that night, when in that situation, it was a different group of people.  They happened to be Black in this situation, although it is not clear, it seems like most people have said, the people happen to have been White.  But what seems to have been common, is that these people were not concerned - I mean here you are. You ae not 68 years old.  At that time you were 63 years old.  This happened about five years ago.  But these people were not concerned whether they were attacking children, young people, elderly people. The question has to be asked: what manner of humankind is this, that go into other people's homes, attack them, sometimes kill people, sometimes cripple people, as has been mentioned here.  In your case also, your biggest concern, is the damage that was done to your property.  One can just hope and pray that these sort of events never take place again in our lifetime, and certainly in our country, and that you can find peace in this new South Africa that we have.
 I thank you for coming.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-24

THETIWE JULIA MATLHOKO: Thank you that the Truth Commission has allowed me to be here. Thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-24

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ezekiel, and thank you, Mrs Mmolawa for coming today.  Thank you for sharing that story with us.  We know there was a time in our country when people were charged, youngsters, particularly were charged with public violence and thrown into jail.  And that a lot of things were done to them and many of them bear the scars of that today. In your case, Ezekiel, has a problem with his ear, which will probably be there for a very, very long time.  It is the legacy of the past that we have actually gone through.
 What is disquieting however, is that we rely on certain institutions to protect us, and the fact that were nameless and faceless people who came into your homes,  into your communities and who took police away, means that it is very, very difficult for us to understand why these things happened in that particular way.  But one of the jobs that we have to do, is to make sure that people are never able to act in that way again, that if they come to your home to take you away, they must have the proper documentation and they must have the proper authorisation to do these things.  Part of the job in our country is rebuilding all these structures.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
12 M MMOLAWA
 Your story shows that lots of things happened which even we don't really know about.  We will try to see what can be done about Ezekiel's ear, but thank you for sharing that with us.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-26

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions?  Thank you. Mr and Mrs Molete, thank you for having come, gone to the truoble of giving us a statement and coming through today and testifying.  You, Mr Molete, particularly, for giving us at least a first-hand account of what happened.  We understand your evidence and we understand what you are saying, that from your personal knowledge, of course, you can't say very much, because the circumstances were such that you simply had to flee, you had to somehow preserve your own life and you didn't have much time to make observations and to see what happened and so on.  But we will look into the matter. We know what the circumstances were in Tigane when this incident happened.  All the indications are that this had to do with the conflict that was going on in that community at that stage.  One must say that it is an incident that has happened very recently, even the previous one that we heard about, 1992 and 1993 is not so very long ago. But we have also heard that at least it seems as if the conflict that was raging at that stage doesn't exist any more, which is a very positive thing for us.  We will have to look into the matter.  You have brought it to us now, we will investigate it and we will more than likely contact you again. You must today, as I have said
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
14 A M MOLETE
earlier, before you leave, we will have to arrange for the statement-takers to be in touch with you, but you will have to give a statement as well, and we will work on that statement as well as the evidence that you have given.  Thank you once again.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

DR RANDERA: Peter, I greet you, my name is Faizel Randera. I am going to be helping you in telling your story.  Can you please us tell the name of the lady who is accompanying you this morning?

PETER PITSO MOLETSANE: Josephine Moletsane, my sister.

DR RANDERA: I welcome Josephine too.  Peter, before I ask you to tell your story, will you please stand to take the oath.

PETER PITSO MOLETSANE: (Duly sworn, states).

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Peter.  Would you prefer that I call you Peter or Pitso?

PETER PITSO MOLETSANE: You can use both of them, Peter or Pitso.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  Peter, you are now 29 years old.  We are going back to 1986, state of emergency existing in most townships in our country, and you are going to tell us what happened to you in 1986 when you were arrested and what happened after that.  Will you please tell us what happened.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

CHAIRPERSON: Pitso, it is painful for you that a woman has to support your own child, because you have to take the responsibility to support your own child.  You are one of those who is still young, who sacrificed themselves for the fruits of liberation we have now.  Even if you feel pain, we say you should be strengthened by what the children were
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
13 MR MOLETSANE
fighting for, we now see the fruits.  It is easy to say your pain is our pain. In the same vein we say we see the fruits that today we are governing ourselves.  At that time we were tortured, we were harassed, we had problems.  We suffered, because we were oppressed.  We sympathise with you.  We don't know how we are going to deal with your request.  We are going to look at maybe we can help with the money. We as Commission, we don't have our money.  We can just take the request to the President and say your request, how can we help, how can we help.  He is the one who will talk to the Parliament to see how they can help.  We give the information to them how they can help in your case.  We ask God that you also should be blessed and strengthened by Him.  We thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-24

DR RANDERA: Mr Mopeloa, good afternoon.

THABANG REGINALD MOPELOA: Good afternoon, Sir.

DR RANDERA: I trust you had a good lunch.

THABANG REGINALD MOPELOA: Yes, I ate, my tummy actually nearly burst.

DR RANDERA: That's good to know.  Mr Mopeloa, you have come from Lebaleng outside Makwassie, to tell us about what happened to you on the 17th of June 1986.  Before I ask you to take the oath, can you please introduce the young lady who is with you.

THABANG REGINALD MOPELOA: This beautiful woman next to me is my younger sister.

DR RANDERA: We also welcome you.  Mr Mopeloa, would you please stand to take the oath.

THABANG REGINALD MOPELOA: (Duly sworn, states).

DR RANDERA: Mr Mopeloa, you will just have to excuse me while I shift chairs, okay, as I am helping you.  Mr Mopeloa, as I said to you earlier on, you are going to tell us what happened to you in 1986.  Before you go onto that, will you please tell us something about your family circumstances and your personal circumstances.

THABANG REGINALD MOPELOA: I am a very energetic youth, I am 27 years old. I am the second born in the small family of three members.  I must say I have been very crippled by the past experiences KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
2 T R MOPELOA
and that is why I am appearing before the Commission today.  I am no working because I am not able to work.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  Mr Mopeloa, before you go on to tell us what happened on the 17th of June, perhaps you can tell us what was happening in the Lebaleng, in that year.  Were things very quiet, was there unrest, was there a rent boycott, were you involved in any political activities yourself?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-25

DR RANDERA: How many of you were charged in that court case?  Who was with you?  Were you the only one?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was alone, Sir.

DR RANDERA: And what was the charge?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The charge was to tell why that hall was burnt.

DR RANDERA: So you were found guilty of actually burning the hall or public violence?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was convicted for public violence, Sir.

DR RANDERA: Daniel, is there anything else you want to say?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There is nothing I want to add, Sir.

DR RANDERA: Can I ask you one more question, or two more questions, actually.  The one is, were you a member of the Youth Congress at the time in Ikhutseng? I know you said you are a member of the ANC, were you also a member of the Youth Congress?  You said you were a comrade.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I was a member of the Youth Congress, Sir.

DR RANDERA: Daniel, you talked earlier on with Mr Manthata
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
7 K D MOTSAMAI
and Prof Piet Meiring about the medical treatment that you are receiving on a monthly basis.  Can you please tell us a little bit more about this medical treatment. Is it for psychological, psychiatric problems?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It is physical treatment and psychological treatment, Sir.

DR RANDERA: After that time when you were actually tortured, have you had to spend time in hospital for these problems?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I never slept in the hospital, but I went to the hospital later.

DR RANDERA: What did you spend time in hospital for?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: For them, after the torture and electrocution, Sir.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I didn't know when I was talking with you, that maybe you were frightened.  Is that so?  Because I asked you in regard to the doctor.  That after the torture, did you go to the doctor.  Then you said no.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I didn't go immediately.  I sat for some days and then thereafter I went to the doctor.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Then when I asked you who the doctor is, you couldn't remember the doctor, but now when Dr Randera asked you about the doctor, then you come with the name, then you said it is Thabo.  That is why I am asking you that if you were frightened when I was first talking to you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No,  I was not frightened.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did you just forget?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I just forgot some other issues.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Daniel, I would like to thank you for coming here today.  We have listened to your story.  We - I would
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8 K D MOTSAMAI
also like to note, I think - and I speak now as a professional medical person, I think that you need to speak to our people from the reparation and rehabilitation committee especially, so that we can give you whatever assistance that is possible, but we will make further enquriies on what you have told us today and we will come back to you.  Thank you very much for coming.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

PROF MEIRING: Thank you for that.  And the last question, you said that you are still strong, your hands are strong. Are you able to work, even though you are a disabled person, are you able to do something for your own upkeep?

JACOB MOTSAU: With my hands I can work, but I should not sit down for a long time, I have got to stretch my legs all the time, because if I sit like this for a long time, my legs become swollen and I have a pain on my hip.

PROF MEIRING: (Speaker's mike not on) ... for you, what are you doing with your hands?

JACOB MOTSAU: I am doing nothing, Sir, in the meantime.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you.  We sympathise with you with your problems.  We are saying if a person has been crippled and not doing anything, it is a lie.  Many people used to say I was not doing anything.

JACOB MOTSAU: Then somebody just pointed at me with a gun and when I turned then he shot me.  They didn't agree that that is the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Then again, you are crippled and you go to prison again for 22 months.

YASMINE SOOKA: It is unbelievable.

CHAIRPERSON: Then they it seems it is not the truth what you are saying.  What can we say?  We are here to see the truth about all what happened during those dark days.  So that we should be able to work together to help each other in a country.  So that these kind of things should never happen again.  Even the victims, the nation should be able to say this is something we give you, that we sympathise
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with you.  There is not much we can do.  Even now when we hear you saying about the wheelchair.  Maybe if there will be somebody who would say we will try to help you so that you should get a new wheelchair which is better than the one you have.  We will just hope and we will try to help you all, that God should be the one who should be your Protector.  Then to give you the holy ointment in your broken heart, in the broken spirits.  We thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

DR RANDERA: Mr Motsoenyane, are you comfortable?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, Sir.

DR RANDERA: Could you please introduce the lady who is with you this afternoon.

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: This is Mrs Motsoenyane.

DR RANDERA: I welcome her too.  Commisioner Sooka is going to be helping you with your statement this afternoon, but before I hand over to her, could you please stand to take the oath.

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: (Duly sworn, states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. Mr Motsoenyane, are you able to hear me clearly?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, Sir.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Motsoenyane, you have come to tell us the story of your son. However, before you do that, will you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do for a living, where you live, how many other children you have and a little bit more about this one that you are coming to tell the story about.

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: We are staying at Tlholong. I am working at the Correctional Services Department at Wolmaransstad. I have four children now, three daughters and one son, besides the one who was slain.

YASMINE SOOKA: You had two sons and the one is now deceased.
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JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, ma'am.

YASMINE SOOKA: Tell us about your son that you have come to talk about today. Are you comfortable? Why don't you pull that a little closer to you if you are not feeling comfortable.  Is that better?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

YASMINE SOOKA: You mentioned the name of one of the policemen as KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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being April. Do you know what his proper name is?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: He was called April, I don't know any other names.

YASMINE SOOKA: Is he still around?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: I just presume he must be there, I presume that he is still working, I am not sure.

YASMINE SOOKA: This other policeman, Goliath, is he around as well?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: It is not that I have heard from Goliath, I think he left.  I think he was transferred or I am not sure, I don't have any information.

YASMINE SOOKA: So after you buried your son, did you have any more problems with the police?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: No, after the funeral there was no problem.

YASMINE SOOKA: Were you ever called to attend any inquest hearing to find out why your son had died?  Did the police ever come to tell you that there was going to be a case in court?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: I never heard anything.  Nobody came to tell me anything.

YASMINE SOOKA: And since then you still don't know who actually shot your son?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Yes, that's true.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you for sharing that with us. I don't have any more questions.  But I will ask the Chairperson if the other Commissioners want to ask you any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Motsoenyane, just one question about your son.  How old was he when he was shot?

JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: He was 16 years old, Sir.

PROF MEIRING: Sixteen years old?
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JOSIAH N MOTSOENYANE: Sixteen years old, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Sir.   We usually say the same things as we did with the other witnesses, that we don't have enough words to console you.  But we say here we are, your son has not died in vain.  We see the fruits of their labour because we are here now, as a free country. We are proud that we are not independent.  These are a few words that may perhaps be of comfort to you.  We ask that God will bless you and exalt you.  We will try to see how we can unearth this mystery to find out who is responsible for your son's death.  We thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-24

DR RANDERA: Mr Ndlovu, good afternoon and welcome to you.

JOE NDLOVU: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: You have had a long wait.  I know you arrived yesterday already and you have come all the way from Christiana, the furthest point in this circle of towns that we are listening to for the next four days. I would like to thank you very much for coming all that way.  Thank you, Sir.

JOE NDLOVU: I also thank you, Sir.

DR RANDERA: Mr Ndlovu, you are also going to talk about incidents that happened to yourself and your family and your property.  Before I hand over to Commissioner Yasmin Sooka, I would just like you to stand to take the oath, please.

JOE NDLOVU: (Duly sworn, states).

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mr Ndlovu.  Commissioner Sooka?
MS SOOKA

JOE NDLOVU: I also thank you, Sir.  Mr Ndlovu, you have quite a history and I think it would be best if you tell us first a little bit abour yourself, your background and what actually led to all of these attacks taking place against you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-24

YASMINE SOOKA: William, I just have two questions to ask you.   You mention in your statement that the people who did this to you, were members of the right-wing group, the AWB, but you also talk later on about policemen. Now were these people policemen or were they members of this right-wing group?

WILLIAM NXANXA: Some of the people were the police and some were the members of the AWB, but the people who fetched me from the farm were the policemen, among them was a Black policeman.

YASMINE SOOKA: Was it common in Ottosdal for the AWB and the police to work together?

WILLIAM NXANXA: We didn't know anything about the AWB.  We didn't even know at neighbouring farms they were AWBs.

YASMINE SOOKA: The other question relates to your medical condition.  What have been the effects of the suffering that you had to go through?  You talk about your back not being right. You have also talked about having problems with your private parts.  Does this mean that you are not able to have children, could you be a little more, I think if you could give us a few more details, please, for the record.

WILLIAM NXANXA: I think I cannot have children, you know.  That
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is why I have told you that I go to a doctor every two weeks, I have a problem with erection actually.

YASMINE SOOKA: Are you receiving - I note that you say that you go to the doctor every two weeks.  So are you receiving treatment for that?

WILLIAM NXANXA: Yes, they do give me tablets and I get an injection and they say it will help me, but up to this stage it hasn't helped.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  Thank you for telling us your story.  I think we would appreciate if you could make sure that the details of the names of those who did this to you, are given to our statement-takers, so that it can be handed over to the investigation unit.  We will also appreciate receiving your medical records so that we can also pass that on.  Thank you for sharing your story with us.  We know that it is not an easy experience for you.

WILLIAM NXANXA: Thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-25

DR RADERA: And then at four o'clock in the morning, in mid-winter, and it is cold, you are sleeping in the car, it is totally dark - or were there lights around?
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SIMON RABESI PHIRI: Yes, there were lights.  The car was parked behind the shack and when this light was on, I was lying and they couldn't see in the car, because in winter it is a bit misty, and they couldn't see clearly inside the car.

DR RADERA: Thank you.  And the mentioning of Mr Terre'Blanche and Mr Rudolph, is it also a fact that you knew they were part of the people were charged afterwards?

SIMON RABESI PHIRI: They were found guilty after they attacked us. I didn't quite understand your question.

DR RADERA: I am saying that did you recognise them from their voices or did you recognise them from the fact that they were charged afterwards?

SIMON RABESI PHIRI: I heard Terre'Blanche as he was giving them instructions and Piet Skiet Rudolph was after they tried to break the windscreen, because it was too hard. They were conversing as to how to break it and ten metres from the yard, we found Piet Skiet Rudolph's card.

DR RADERA: Okay.  Was there anybody who was killed on that night, Mr Phiri?  There were many homes that were attacked, was there anybody who got killed?

SIMON RABESI PHIRI: Nobody was killed, we were just assaulted.

DR RADERA: Now you say these people were found guilty. Is that right?

SIMON RABESI PHIRI: They said they were not guilty because they did not attack, they actually mentioned that their offices were broken into.  That is the story they told the police.

DR RADERA: But was there a court case?

SIMON RABESI PHIRI: We didn't meet with them in court, they went to court and I followed them. I wanted the police to give me information as to what was going to happen with our case.

DR RADERA: And in court, were they found guilty?
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SIMON RABESI PHIRI: Not, because they were released.

DR RADERA: Okay. Thank you, Mr Phiri.
 Mr Phiri, thank you very much for coming all the way from Ventersdorp today.  Our investigative unit will certainly make more enquiries about what happened on that night and we will come back to you and to the other people who are going to be giving their stories today.  Thank you very much.

SIMON RABESI PHIRI: I also thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

CHAIRPERSON: We don't know what to do, it is just that there is a vindication that has happened when maybe people were going through all of the people and the anguish and suffering, even though you believed freedom was going to come, there must have been moments when you doubted and it seemed like the powers of evil just might overwhelm good. We are glad, I mean, that we worship a God who is a God of justice, a God of goodness, a God of freedom, and that this God has not let us down.  When we used to say that the freedom we are talking about, is not a freedom for Black people, it is going to be freedom for everyone, because we used to say, and people sometimes thought we were being funny, that White people in this country would never be free until all of us were free together.  Now they are seeing the truth of that. We give thanks for all who have contributed: Black, White, Coloured, Indian, who have contributed to what we have now.  We would want to endorse your call.
 The Commission is not a court of law.  We are not asking people to come and tell us their story so that we should prosecute them.  The purpose is that we should know the truth and then work for reconciliation, forgiveness, healing, unity of our nation.
 The Army officers in Bisho last week, when they said we gave the orders that people should be shot, were sorry. The people sitting there heard this and accepted, and many will still be surprised at the willingness of those who have suffered, to forgive.  We pray that they will hear your call. They will hear the call of so many others, come and
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17 S M RASMENI
reveal what happened.
 The thing is of course, that the truth will come out.  It will come out. I mean, you try to hide it, it keeps pushing out. It will come out. I mean, we may not get all of the truth ourselves, but it is going to come out. We want to say that we have been given the work of discovering the truth together.  Then people say this is horrible, it is ugly, it is evil, but we must look at it and say yes, it was evil, but it is possible to mooe away from it, because people have acknowledged "I did do this; I did do this; I did do this".  We must know that we as human beings are also people who are capable of doing horrible things.  It is good to know all of those horrible things and pray that God will preserve us from doing some of the things that were done to our people. 
 I thank you very, very much.  We are most grateful.

MR RASMENI: My plesure, my pleasure, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-23

MADIBO SHADRACK SEAKGOA: I never said a councillor ordered, the council itself resolved and then a council employee was ordered to cut the water supply. That was after we had resolved to boycott the payment of service fees.  Because number one, is that the council was failing to deliver as duty-bound, because when you are elected in your position you are duty-bound.  So secondly, we had requested them peacefully to
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14 M S SEAKGOA
resign, because they were incapable and inefficient.  In response to that we said we are not going to pay until you resign.  They resolved to cut the water supply as their weapon.

YASMINE SOOKA: What did that actually cause in the township?

MADIBO SHADRACK SEAKGOA: I would say that caused a very pathetic situation, because people had to move from point A to the Indian centre and ask for a 20 litre of water. If you do not have your own means of transport, it means you have to hire someone's car to go and fetch water for you and at the end of the day those fellow Indian comrades who were supplying us with water, have a burden of paying a bill of water.

YASMINE SOOKA: For how long was the water supply cut?

MADIBO SHADRACK SEAKGOA: I can't say exactly, but it was something between a month and three months.

YASMINE SOOKA: How did it finally resolve itself?

MADIBO SHADRACK SEAKGOA: We resolved that all the residents of Tswelelang will have to pay an amount of R10,00 to the office of the Civic Association.  The Civic Association will then go straight to the Water Board and pay for the supply of water. That money is not going to the town council, it is going straight to the Water Board, we are not paying for those services, we are paying for water only.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Madibo.  You are very impressive and we keep having to acknowledge the contribution that young people have made towards the changes that have happened in our land. We know that those changes have not come easily, they have a price tag attaching to them.  We hope so very much that people will keep remembering the price that was paid for this freedom so that KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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people do not devalue it and they do not subvert it, but we want to say thank you and when we say thank you to you, we say thank you to all the other young people who have made a positive contribution to bringing about this new South Africa.  Thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-26

SEIPATI HILDA SEPHAPO: No, I didn't give them the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: They didn't bring you a summons, for instance, to come and appear in court at any stage?

SEIPATI HILDA SEPHAPO: I didn't get any summons.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Tom Manthata?

THOMAS MANTHATA: I don't have a question, it is just a piece of information I want to share with you.  As we go around the country listening to the stories, in 1986 in this same year of 1986, people died in KwaNdebele, nine of them were killed.  That is why we are asking you about the leadership.  Did they give you the condition in the country at that time?  That was my statement, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Tom.  Mrs Sephapo, it remains for me to thank you for coming and to thank you for giving evidence, telling us what happened.  This was a particularly fateful day in Kanana as Dr Randera referred to earlier already.  That was also the same evening on which the son of Mr Khiba who testified earlier this year.  You have told us about at least three other persons that were killed, shot and killed, it would appear, together with your son.  So it seems to have been a particularly bad day in Kanana.  I must add that this kind of violation, civilians being shot and killed by members of the security forces, particularly the
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police, is a very frequent and common occurrence, common type of case that the Commission deals with. One is over and over shocked by the senseless loss of life, and in some instances, and we heard a lot of testimony in this sitting, about what one can only describe as lawlessness on the part of police, particularly.  Now nothing that one can say can really compensate for the loss of life.  Particularly the loss of life of a child, a son.  We appreciate and we understand the grief that goes with that.  That one cannot really bring back the life.  But a lot of people sacrificed and sacrificed their lives.  It is perhaps a small consolation that all of those sacrifices have added up eventually to what we see unfolding today.  A promise of a better life, a promise of a better future, a promise of eventually a community free of conflict, free of violence. Perhaps it is a small consolation that your son has lost his life under those circumstances.  But we want to thank you for coming and sharing your story with us.  Go well.

SEIPATI HILDA SEPHAPO: I thank you.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG