Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I do.  I know several pipe bombs left there.  The one night we loaded pipe bombs into Jan de Wet's vehicle which was supposed to go to the game farm taking into consideration other attacks.

MS VAN DER WALT: These are pipe bombs built on Koesterfontein?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And on the game farm, what happened there?

MR LE ROUX: At the game farm we started making preparations to move from there to another place.  They spoke of some or other vehicle of Pretoria which would have planted a bomb there had not returned yet and therefore we had to move.  We then went to the shooting range ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this now the Waterfall Shooting Range at Rustenberg?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.  We went to the shooting range.  The four of use were together, Myburgh, Barnard, Koekemoer and myself and together with our group we had the two vehicles, it was the Peugeot which would later become the Jan Smuts car bomb, and our vehicle.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just get clarification Mr le Roux, these people who gathered together at the game farm, can you tell the Committee approximately how many people there were?

MR LE ROUX: There were quite a few, it I give an estimate I'd say about 70 or more.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the people on the game farm were only men, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, only men, no women and children were allowed, it was a war situation and we acted under strict discipline and it was a revolution that was going to take place and we were busy with that.

MS VAN DER WALT: The camp was under the charge of a Camp Commandant and that is Abie Fourie, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then there was also a Commandant Operations?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this Commandant Operations, that was du Plessis.  What did you understand with regard to the rank he held within the camp?

MR LE ROUX: It was that he was in charge of certain operations, in other words he would have sent out the pipe bombs and he had command over that.

MS VAN DER WALT: The AWB existed, as you already testified, out of several ranks, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there any instructions given to you during this gathering?

MR LE ROUX: Chairperson, from the start we were given orders.  It was a rank hierarchy, it was military circumstances in which we operated.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your rank during that time?

MR LE ROUX: At that time I was a Lieutenant in the "Yestergarde".

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you said you went to the shooting range and the other people at the game farm, did they also arrive at the shooting range?

MR LE ROUX: Some of them were already there and some of them arrived after us.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the situation at the shooting range, was it the same as it was at the game farm, under strict discipline?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct, there was discipline and the rank hierarchy was respected there.

MS VAN DER WALT: And at the shooting range, what happened there?

MR LE ROUX: At the shooting the afternoon some of the men wanted to go and visit their wives and it was decided that some of them could go to their wives at Jan de Wet's farm and then they decided how they were going to drive, they had a small meeting.  I was opposed to the meeting and I said that it could place is in a difficult situation in case any one of them were caught and he could then inform the police where we were if they were caught and I was opposed to this whole movement.

MS VAN DER WALT: But did some of the men go and visit their wives?

MR LE ROUX: According to me there were two vehicles that left with men who wanted to visit their wives.

MS VAN DER WALT: And who was in charge of the shooting range, the camp there after the men left?

MR LE ROUX: I know Commandant Abie Fourie was in charge of the camp at first and then he appointed somebody else but I cannot remember who.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention in your amnesty application on page 63, you mention Mike Miles Sharp.

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is that the person who was then in Command?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is he from the Natal unit?

MR LE ROUX: He was part of the Natalers, as we put it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there people coming from Natal who attended this gathering?

MR LE ROUX: The chief group there was our group from Vereeniging, Johannesburg and Pretoria and then there were quite a few from Natal, we called them Natalers.

MS VAN DER WALT: And why did they go there?

MR LE ROUX: For the same reason, that is in order to force this Volkstaat onto the government and to stop the election.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was there a further bomb build at the shooting range?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard informed us that we were still going to build another bomb and he told me he is going to Jan Smuts with this bomb.  We started the evening with the building of the bomb, I was not involved with the building of the bomb.  Once again it was Koekemoer who was in charge of the building of the bomb and basically he built the whole bomb.

MS VAN DER WALT: Please continue.

MR LE ROUX: At that stage the car had a problem.  Because it was stolen they hot wired this car and the coil started boiling over so I took the coil from my car to place it over the coil of the Peugeot in order to rectify it because I was responsible.  Barnard gave me an instruction and said: "Make sure the car is fine so that we can get to where we want to go".
	There was also a flat tyre which the Peugeot had which was deflating slowly.  Later that evening me and another guy, I cannot remember his name, we called him: "Weeskind", we went to Swartruggens to a garage there to fix the wheel and we brought the car back and we brought back the new wheel.

ADV BOSMAN: You mentioned that Barnard gave you an instruction, I don't think you have told us what his rank was, can you just clarify that please?

MR LE ROUX: Barnard, I saw him as a Colonel in the Ystergarde and the leadership of the Ystergarde also considered him to be that and treated him in such a way but he was not a person who was very, he didn't want anything from a rank, he always said he had the lowest rank but I knew that he had a high rank within the Ystergarde.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that?

MR LE ROUX: That was the general perception amongst ourselves.  Barnard was the one who worked in head office and he worked very closely with Terreblanche.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did you know that Prinsloo was a General?

MR LE ROUX: I was involved with the AWB, I was at several camps and through that we knew that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he introduced as General?

MR LE ROUX: At the meetings the Generals are sitting there and they are introduced as such and when we had a drill, we had to march at certain times, then they were Generals, they carried the ranks of Generals as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there an opportunity where Barnard was introduced as someone who had a high rank?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.  Chairperson, the first time I met him they said that that person is a Colonel in the Ystergarde.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said that?

MR LE ROUX: I cannot remember Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it one of the ...[intervention]

MR LE ROUX: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Was it one of the Generals who said this?

MR LE ROUX: No, I did not speak to the Generals as such but amongst ourselves, we guys spoke and it was the general thing, we knew who these people were.  For example the Camp Commandant, Commandant Abie Fourie, we all knew that he was Commandant Abie Fourie and the camps we attended he was also addressed as such and he was regarded as a Commandant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you just tell me, how did you address Mr Barnard while you were there?

MR LE ROUX: As Cliffie.

ADV BOSMAN: I beg your pardon?