Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.  I went into a house, broke a window to gain entry seeing that the doors were locked.  I found a girl who was trying to jump out of the window, I apprehended her and I asked her where the other comrades were and she said she didn't know.  I stabbed that instant and she fell.  I opened the wardrobe ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you stab her?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I stabbed her here.  I then opened the wardrobe ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just indicate again where you stabbed her.

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I stabbed her here.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, you are indicating just below the right ear in the vicinity of the collarbone, is that right?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes, but then I pointed or directed my spear downwards.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know how old this girl you referred to was?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I would not say but she could have been my age.

MR STRYDOM: How old are you?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I am 35 years old.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you stab her?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: We were frustrated by the fact that we could not locate the people we were looking for.  I was therefore infuriated because these are the people who get so excited when we get killed, they are the ones who are always found in the forefront.

MR STRYDOM: When you asked her where the comrades are, did she say anything in reply?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: She said she didn't know.

MR STRYDOM: After you stabbed her what happened to her?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: She died.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where in Boipatong this incident took place?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I am not quite familiar with the area, I was there for the first time that evening.  I do not even know the streets, but there is one shop that is near the taxi rank and that is the area.

MR STRYDOM: Was that shortly after you had entered Boipatong?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did I understand you correctly, did this happen inside her house?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: After that, did you leave the house?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I opened the wardrobe.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, what happened then?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I found two males in the wardrobe hidden there.  I then called upon Themba ...(end of tape) ... because they had trapped the doors to the wardrobe so that we could not open and they were shot from inside.

MR STRYDOM: Who shot them?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Themba Mabote.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if they died or not?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: They died because they collapsed and we could see their heads outside the wardrobe.

MR STRYDOM: Did anything further happen in that specific house?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: No, we then left.

MR STRYDOM: Now you also said that you stabbed another person but this person ran away, can you tell the Committee about this incident?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes, I can.

MR STRYDOM: Just go ahead.

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I found this person in this one particular house.  When we left that house just about to enter another house I saw him coming out trying to escape.  There was a Peugeot vehicle and he tried to conceal himself behind the vehicle.
	I noticed and I approached during which time he fled.  I chased him and he jumped over a fence and I stabbed him as he was jumping the fence.  He landed on the other side and he continued running.  I don't know what became of him.

MR STRYDOM: This person, was it an elderly person, or can you just give an indication of the age of this person?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: It was a person older than myself.  Even though it was at night I think he could have been older than myself.

MR STRYDOM: Tell me generally, what was the situation with light in Boipatong, was it dark or could you see what you were doing, what was the situation?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: It was dark.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the two instances you've referred now, were you personally involved in any other instances where people got killed or injured?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I would say yes, even though I was not directly involved.  I was doing that myself even though not directly killing someone.

MR STRYDOM: What do you mean, did you see other people doing things or what?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: We went into a house which was empty.  We searched inside and I found these people under a bed and I removed them.  It was a male as well as a female.  I pulled them out and Themba shot them.

MR STRYDOM: Anything else?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: That's it.

MR STRYDOM: Just to move a step back, you referred to a Peugeot, do you know where this Peugeot was parked in relation to the journey you followed through Boipatong?  Was it in the beginning of the attack when you saw the Peugeot or towards the end?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I saw it once we were inside Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: And this last instance where you chased people which Themba shot, can you give any indication where in Boipatong this happened?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I am not in the position because I was just walking around not being able to tell in which area we were.

MR STRYDOM: You state in your affidavit that
"I was not in Slovo Park."
Do you stand by that?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I don't know whether we went to Slovo Park because I do not know Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from what you've told the Committee now, did you see no further instances where people were injured or killed by any person?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: No.

MR STRYDOM: Then you left Boipatong and you went back to the hostel, is that right?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack did you go to the stadium or directly to your room?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I went straight to my room to sleep.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: I've no questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: May it please you, Mr Chairman.
	The vehicle that you saw, the military vehicle, do  you know the streets that surround Boipatong, do you know Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Nobel Boulevard?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: No, I cannot differentiate between the two streets.  There is one that comes from Vanderbijl Park and the other one that leads towards the firms.

MR DA SILVA: The one that comes from Vanderbijlpark, is that the street that separates Boipatong from Kwamadala hostel?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I think so.

MR DA SILVA: Did you see this military vehicle on that street?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes, I saw it approaching towards Sebokeng on that very same road.

MR DA SILVA: May I just obtain instructions, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	The vehicle that you saw, what type of vehicle was this?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: It was the kind of vehicle wherein you can see somebody or somebody's head peeping from inside.  I don't know what kind of a vehicle it is, I don't know it's name really.

MR DA SILVA: Can you say whether it was a military vehicle or any other vehicle?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I saw it and concluded that it must be a military vehicle.

MR DA SILVA: What made you reach that conclusion?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I used to see that kind of a vehicle with soldiers inside.

MR DA SILVA: Did you see that this vehicle had soldiers inside?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: No.

MR DA SILVA: Can you remember what colour the vehicle was?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: It could have been brown.

MR DA SILVA: When you say it could have been brown you don't sound sure, could it have been another colour?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: It was brown.

MR DA SILVA: At what time did you see this vehicle, can you estimate?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I am not binding myself insofar as time is concerned, we had already left Boipatong.

MR DA SILVA: Did you see this vehicle in the vicinity of the robots?