Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-10

ADV COLLETT: The nature of the proceedings were that a statement in terms of Section 112 (ii)(b) of the Criminal Procedure Act was prepared on behalf of Brigadier Gqozo and it was submitted to court.  He did not testify in mitigation and he did not testify at all as a matter of fact.  The psychiatric report of Doctor Weiss was also handed in at that particular criminal court hearing.

ADV POTGIETER: And the condition that he is suffering from, that you have referred to, since when has he been receiving treatment for that?

ADV COLLETT: He has been receiving treatment since last Tuesday.

ADV POTGIETER: That is prior to his appearance on the criminal charge.

ADV COLLETT: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Now the letter that we have got which is signed by the Brigadier himself and was faxed to us yesterday seemed to have emanated from your chambers.  It was faxed from your chambers according to the fax activity report, is that correct?

ADV COLLETT: That is correct but the invitation was also faxed to my chambers.

ADV POTGIETER: Now when you accepted the, when he accepted the invitation to come and testify yesterday, which reached us at about 11 o'clock, to be exact nine minutes to eleven yesterday morning.  Have you already consulted with him to have been in a position to confirm that he would be coming to appear?

ADV COLLETT: No I had not consulted with him.  Might I point out Honourable Mr Commissioner, that Brigadier Gqozo was in Bophuthatswana until Friday last week.  I saw him for the first time after the time that he surrendered himself to me on Monday morning after I had appeared in a court case in Bisho, and that was after 11 o'clock.

ADV POTGIETER: So must the Commission understand that the invitation was accepted and confirmation was given that the Brigadier would appear here at these proceedings, before you've consulted with him and before having ascertained whether, in fact, he is in a position to appear given the fact that he is receiving medical treatment and given this condition that he is suffering from.

ADV COLLETT: Mr Commissioner, the invitation that was issued was not issued to myself, it was actually issued to Brigadier Gqozo.  Although I technically received it through my fax last week Brigadier Gqozo first had sight of it yesterday morning.  Pursuant to the invitation he made up his mind that he wanted to attend.  It was pursuant to that, that consultations were embarked upon between us and in my professional opinion he was not able to make any meaningful contribution because of his medical condition and I consulted with Doctor Weiss yesterday pursuant to the symptoms that were presenting themselves in consultation.

ADV POTGIETER: I just want to understand the situation.  So really what we must understand is that it's after you have consulted with him that you formed the opinion that he is not able to make a meaningful contribution to these proceedings, that you formed the idea that it would be better for him not to appear today.

ADV COLLETT: It is not a case of me forming any idea with respect, Mr Commissioner.  I merely advised that I was unable to get any cogent or any information from him which would, in my opinion as a legal professional, enable me to advise my client as to his rights or to make a meaningful contribution to this Commission.

ADV POTGIETER: And what is the Brigadier's own position, is his own opinion now after you have spoken to him, that he is really not in a position to come today?

ADV COLLETT: Once again Mr Commissioner, I wish to say with respect that I never altered Brigadier Gqozo's opinion on anything.  It became apparent to himself and myself during consultations that he was not in fact in a fit position to participate in today's hearings.

ADV POTGIETER: And so do we understand that his position is also that he is unable to come today?

ADV COLLETT: Most certainly, his position is certainly that.  I might comment that his medical condition seems to have deteriorated when we embarked on the lengthy consultations.

ADV POTGIETER: Are you able to submit a medical certificate to the Commission in regard to the Brigadier's condition as of now?

ADV COLLETT: If the Commission so requires, I'm sure I can get Doctor Weiss to come and examine him once again.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to repeat myself.  Please, we are dealing with very serious matters and I do not want witnesses or anybody to be influenced in one way or another by the conduct of the audience.  Please!

ADV POTGIETER: I want to conclude, Advocate Collett, just to understand what you are saying, would you be able to facilitate a medical certificate, alternatively is there perhaps a possibility of the Commission in fact being put in touch with the Brigadier?

ADV COLLETT: Might I ask, Mr Commissioner, for what purpose would the Commission like to be in contact with Brigadier Gqozo?

ADV POTGIETER: Well we will have to consider what you have said and the application that you brought, I'm simply asking questions which could be considered when we go and consider the matter, because I am quite sure that the rest of my colleagues would want to discuss the matter before we form any final views on this.  So I am simply exploring all of the possibilities that there are.  Either perhaps a medical certificate otherwise possibly an interview with the Brigadier.

ADV COLLETT: I appreciate your situation Mr Commissioner, I can facilitate a medical certificate if that is what the Commission requires.  I can also, if the Commission so requires, bring Brigadier Gqozo here but none of us, I believe, are medical professionals who could formulate a better opinion than I have given in the circumstances.  I am quite willing to have Doctor Weiss examine him.

ADV POTGIETER: I am grateful for your assistance Advocate.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Are there any other questions?  Dumisa Ntsebeza?

ADV NTSEBEZA: I would just like to ask one question Advocate Collett.  Doctor Weiss is she in a position to herself come and assist the Commission in fathoming the depth of Brigadier Gqozo's mental condition, other than just in the affidavit form?

ADV COLLETT: Mr Commissioner sir, I did speak to Doctor Weiss yesterday about the condition of Brigadier Gqozo and the symptoms that arose.  She confirmed, as I have said already to the Commission, that those were classic symptoms of the depressive episode that the Brigadier was suffering from.  I am quite sure, she is a state psychiatrist and I am quite sure that she would co-operate and come to the Commission and clarify the condition further should the Commission so require it.

CHAIRPERSON: [indistinct] ...  very much.  Doctor Ramashala?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Advocate Collett, I assume that Doctor Weiss' opinion is based on a direct mental status examination of the Brigadier.

ADV COLLETT: That is correct.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: That in fact she did interview him.

ADV COLLETT: That is correct ma'am.  She did come and interview Brigadier Gqozo.  She, to form, I wanted an opinion from her as to his mental state.  I was under the impression that there was something that was not quite kosher and I accordingly asked her as a state psychiatrist to come and evaluate Brigadier Gqozo.  She interviewed him personally, alone, in the absence of myself.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: On what day?

ADV COLLETT: On what day?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Was it before he submitted to you?

ADV COLLETT: It was shortly after his surrender to me last week Tuesday.  That would have been...

MAPULE RAMASHALA: You state that you first saw him on Friday, am I correct?

ADV COLLETT: No I first saw him on Tuesday ma'am.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Tuesday.

ADV COLLETT: I last saw him last Tuesday.  I again saw him this Monday.