Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — UNKNOWN

MS BRAAM: Well, I think the most important event were that - ja, what happened to me - I must just get started now.  This thing happened in September - I'll get you the date, Sir - September 1987, the Children Conference, around the Children Conference in Harare.  That is what it was all - in that period, I must explain, I was the chairperson of the Dutch anti-apartheid movement for many years.  Of course, by then I must have been quite known to the South African whatever department of police was involved in this, because I had been active since 1970.  I have always been part of the group who were strong supporters of the ANC, so we were not like, say, the British and the others, you know, sort of - we were very strong ANC supporters - what makes us a little bit different than the other groups.  Also, what must have brought special attention, especially from people like Craig Williamson, to the Netherlands is the fact that Buren Scheitema (?) and Breyten Breytenbach, of course, operated from here.  That the whole ... (inaudible) ..., I think, was very much done from here.  So they must have had a lot of information about the Netherlands and the who was who, who was who list and another question what - another thing that might have made them a bit more aggressive towards us is the fact that, well, it was said in the press and in a way it was true, a lot of people were also members in the Communist Party and I think that always upset them more than anything else.  So for years we were - we were, especially when it came to economic boycott and that sort of issue, you know, we always went for the tougher issues, not so much for the kind of issue where it was something ... (inaudible) ... with all respect.  And I was involved - just to give you the picture of the time, 1987, I was the chairperson, I was the most visible person.  I had contacts with Craig Williamson, not - I can tell you later on, I can tell you a bit more about that, not so - not very friendly or not very open or something like that, but he knew who I was and he had an extra sort of aggression towards me, because he couldn't get a grip on me, but he tried a few times is that he would arrive, say, very early in the morning at Schipol Airport, phone me from there at my home, saying, "Listen, hey, I'm at the airport and I've got no money.  Please come help me out, you know, with some money and I'll return it to you", and, of course, he could do that because was working in Geneva for the IUF so - but that was, of course, you know, to establish - yes, to establish a relationship, you know, and then - because he couldn't do it by another way, he did it like that.  Well, I always sent the secretary of the movement, Fons Felix (?) ... (inaudible).
DR DANIEL (?): So he couldn't get close to you in any way?

MS BRAAM: No, no, no, and I think that's why he developed a sort of a - the first time he tried to finish this thing off is in Cuba, in Havana.  That was in 1974 or 1975 - a conference organized by the United Nations against apartheid and he was there and that was - I mean, for him it must have been a terribly interesting conference, because Thabo was there and Mzo, Jele, you know.  I mean, the guys who were at that moment - also people like Vilakabo was sort of like a rising star at that time.  He could see, you know, the way they were operating and I was close to them.  So who was getting some importance and who wasn't.  Anyway, Williamson was there and he tried all the time to invite me for lunch and for breakfast and I don't know what, but I was hold back by - especially by M P Naicker, who was an older ANC man, who said to me, "Don't do it, you know" ... (inaudible).  I thought at that time that it was a sort of - almost a sort of jealousy that they didn't want me to go out with another guy.  Not that I did with them but, you know, I was part of the ANC group and - but he later on told me.  He said, "No, no, no ..." ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: Williamson had come out by then?   He was IUF at the time you came to Cuba?

MS BRAAM: Yes, yes, yes.  Sure, sure, but he was not trusted by everybody.  There was a great suspicion.  People like M P Naicker.  But he talked, you know, very sort of behind his hands.

DR DANIEL: No, I only mentioned that because it must have been slightly later, because he only came out in 1976 or so.

MS BRAAM: Is that so?  So then I'm - then that conference must - are you sure?

DR DANIEL: I know, because he was working with me in Swaziland in 1976 and he was still inside.

MS BRAAM: Oh, I see.

DR DANIEL: The money was coming through me.
/MS BRAAM

MS BRAAM: But I can't have.  Oh, I see, so he was during the ... (inaudible) ... time, because that was also in that period, you see, that was 1974, 1975, and he gave money to Scheitema, but that must have been afterwards.  So it is not the Cuba conference.  You see, well, this I haven't checked, you know, to see which one, because I've got these lists of things.  Anyway, just to tell you that he had an interest in Holland and he was aware of who was who and ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: Of course, at that time in the - at this particular time in the 'eighties, the South African Government was very antagonistic towards Holland because of you.

MS BRAAM: Ja, ja.  I'm sure.

DR DANIEL: And the whole sort of involvement of people here about Helene and others, that was Dutch people, etcetera.  Relations were bad in South Africa.

MS BRAAM: Yes, ja, ja, ja, but of course at different levels.  I mean, that was then, let's say Government and whatever, but with the anti-apartheid movement, but it was a time that - as I said, it was on different levels.  There was, let's say, the anti-apartheid movement level, there was the open solidarity movement with people like Klaas and Helene, who were, let's say, operating in Africa.  So that was a bit different.  We would take up their cause, of course, but they were not so much - but then there was something that made us particularly scared also when these things happened is that my involvement in Operation Vula, because that was something that was not supposed to be known by anybody and I think they didn't come back, but ... (intervention)
/DR DANIEL

DR DANIEL: (Inaudible).