Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-25

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: At that stage I still thought that things would go according to plan.

CHAIRPERSON: The plans were that Constand Viljoen would make war with you, that was the plan?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, that was part of the planning.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I ask again, or tell you again, he is going to look for votes, he is looking for a place to stay in the Cape.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I did not believe that that man withdrew, even if he decided to take part in the election.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say that you, when did you find out that he took part in the elections?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: It was after the day of the elections, while we were fleeing.

CHAIRPERSON: So it doesn't matter, even if you knew beforehand that he withdrew or is taking part in the election, is that not true.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Let me put it as this, he did register at that stage.  Let's say that I did accept the fact that he is taking part in the elections, I would still have believed that his plan would go ahead, because they were Generals, they know exactly how to plan.
	And I believed that the plan would still continue, I did not doubt that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you cannot say why you thought that?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I believed.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you say why you believed it?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Because Viljoen was part of the people who said that they will establish this Volkstaat in a violent say.

CHAIRPERSON: And now he is gone?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I did not believe that he was gone or had left.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I don't know, I didn't believe it.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I find it strange Mr Fourie, that all the applicants in one way or another, and they do not say why, they thought that let us call it a ploy, no one knew or thought that they were really gone, that he was really gone, it was a lie that he is going to take part in the elections.
	Did you discuss to decide we think it is a ploy?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I never talked to anybody about it, no one talked to me.

CHAIRPERSON: All the applicants had a similar idea.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: The plan was from the Generals and these right wing leaders.

CHAIRPERSON: So everything that went through every applicant's head, is by mere change?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I do not think so, it was part of the plan.  I think those people knew exactly how to plan.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about your thoughts.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is my thoughts and that is how I put it.

CHAIRPERSON: You thought it was a ploy, he is not really going to take part in the election?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, that was part of the planning.

CHAIRPERSON: And all the other applicants thought the same thing, even though you did not talk about it?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, that is what I said earlier on.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you find it strange - the improbability of that idea that a man puts up posters in the street, the whole world now knows that he is going to take part in an election and then individually all the applicants you think it is a set, it is a ploy, without discussing it?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Without doubt, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You are now in this war and you accepted this war is going on and things are going right, bombs are exploding and tomorrow is the election that we want to stop.
	If we question anything, we will be shot, especially the evening before the target or main target, how is it then that while you were amongst the group of people, you had the audacity to go and ask the evening before the election, to go.  
	Didn't you think the people would turn around and shoot you if you can ask such a question just before the election?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson, you see the thing was that we did not turn away from that thing.  We went to them and we asked and they had to make the decision, is it possible or not possible.  There wasn't an argument about it.

CHAIRPERSON: What I find strange is that the evening before the election, which is now the most important day in the AWB's life, the first democratic election that you wanted to stop for your own reasons, that you all go back home that evening?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, it was not all of us.  I think it was a group of 12 and there was a large group.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, this group then?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, were a small group out of this large group, I think we were plus minus 12.

CHAIRPERSON: We need every man in this struggle especially the evening before the elections, how is it then that 12 people go home to go and visit their wives?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: You see, what I said earlier on, when we went to go and ask to go and see the wives, we also needed food supplies, we only had food supply for a week.
	We took clothes and food for a week and the supply was finished and we requested it.  They could have said yes or no because the next morning we had to be back.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go back the next morning?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: We drove and then they said we are first going around to Head Office before we go to the shooting range, but we were on our way back and they just went around there.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were the 12 people who went there?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: It was myself, Peet Steyn, Abe Fourie, Albie Briers, there were a Jan, I think we drove with two or three cars, there were too many people for two cars.

CHAIRPERSON: Jan who?

ADV BOSMAN: De Wet?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, Jan de Wet went with us, yes.  They had a blue Cortina, there were two big men.  They went with, I cannot remember their names.
	I know that the group that went ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Nel with you?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, Jaco Nel did not go with us, he said that he would go this way with Major Smit but they went in another direction.
	We were just the men whose wives were at that farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jannie Kruger, did he go with?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Tiaan Potgieter?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Tiaan Potgieter, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Martin Wiebosch?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I do not think so, I do not think he drove with us, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Venter?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No.  Vlok was there.  Koekemoer, no.  Shorty.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Shorty?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I knew him as Shorty.  I am trying to think, there was another person with us.   There was another man with us, I cannot now remember his name.  The other Jan was Jan de Lange.  Hanekom, I cannot remember their surnames.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not the people who took part in the pipe bomb attacks that went home?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No the people who went there, their wives were there, that is why we could go with to this farm.

CHAIRPERSON: But those who wanted to get away from the farm, were they not the men who took part in the pipe bomb attacks?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, not all of them as far as I know.  The other men who were present, they didn't go out on missions.
	If I can look at that, the groups, then I could probably help you.

CHAIRPERSON: You do not know of who were in the other groups?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: What I know is that our group whose wives were on the other farm, we asked permission.  The other people I do not know, I knew the rest of the groups that to stay at the shooting range and another Commander was appointed as Camp Commandant whilst Abe Fourie was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: Your wives, were they under the impression that you are still busy trying to establish this Volkstaat?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No the little time we spent with them, was very short.  We told them, ensured them that the struggle is on, they knew about that, but the time with the family, we spoke about family things.
	I can only speak for myself, but we are very close, me and my family, we are very close.  I always believe time is precious.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they know that the bombs were exploded by the AWB?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, definitely.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they know?