Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

MR SAMUEL: Sorry, may I take some instructions?  Sorry, there are a few other details.
	Can you proceed from there, what transpired after this body was removed?  Was that the end of the matter, or were you asked to do anything further in regard to Ntombi Kubheka?
MR MBANE
"The following day we were told to remain there, to stay there and we stayed the whole day.  We cooked potjiekos.  The second day we were told that we had to go back to Ntombi's house to find out what was happening.  I then said that - I refused, I said I was not going to got there.  Coetzer was the one who was telling me to do that.
		Instead of doing that, I phoned that house and a lady answered the telephone, she said that Ntombi was not there, she went to meet some people.  We did not agree about this issue because I did not want to go there at all.  
		On the third day we went back to Vlakplaas."

CHAIRPERSON: When you say "we went back to Vlakplaas", are you saying that was yourself, Dube, Botha, Coetzer, Baker, Ras, all of you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Those that were involved in this operation were myself, Dube and Simon, we went back to Vlakplaas, the three of us.  We took our clothes to Winkelspruit and went to CR Swart.  We took some items that we left there and then we went back to Vlakplaas to join other units.  That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbane.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any questions?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Mbane, why have you come to this Committee to give evidence, did somebody ask you to do so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The reason why I came here is my conscience and I also wanted the family members of the deceased to know what happened to their people.  That is why I came forward to give this evidence.

MR VISSER: But do you concede that, do you realise that you did something that was not legal?  It was unlawful, in regard to the abduction of Ms Kubheka?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: At that time I considered it as a legal thing to fetch Kubheka, to take her to be interrogated.

MR VISSER: Do you still think that you did nothing wrong?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The people that did something wrong were those that killed her.

MR VISSER: Is that the reason why you're not applying for amnesty?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Alright.  You also told the Committee through your attorney, that you feared for your life, did you tell your attorney that you feared for your life on the last occasion in September 1999 when we were here?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: From whom did you have this fear?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Sir, it's not the first time that I come forward before the Truth Commission to give evidence.  I would get threats.  After I gave evidence in Cape Town, some strange people would come and look for me at home and I would not know those people.  They would come driving a car, so I was not safe, because they feared that I would come forward and tell the truth.

MR VISSER: Who threatened you?  Can you tell us one name of anybody who threatened you because you gave evidence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know them.

MR VISSER: Aren't you in jail?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I'm in jail.

MR VISSER: What are you talking about, when you're at home?  When was this that you're talking about?  Let me ask you this, how long have you been in jail?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It's a year now.

MR VISSER: Were you made any promises if you gave evidence here today, by anyone?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, there are no promises, I am not going to gain anything.

MR VISSER: Right.  Now the point is that of your evidence as I understand it, is that at least at one stage it was clear that there was information that four, as they were called then, terrorists, were in the country and your job was to find out where they were.  Did I understand you correctly, Mr Mbane?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR VISSER: Just tell me whether I heard you correctly to say that you were told that there were four terrorists in KwaMashu and it was your job to try and find out where they were, so that they could be handed over to your seniors.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: What I want to know is the other three people that you spoke about, there was first one person ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He said there was the person handed over at the roadblock, there was Sbu and there was the person you mentioned who was shot in the kombi and left at the hotel, those three.

MR VISSER: Yes.
	Were those three part of the four that you were looking for, or were they three others?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: They were not part of the three, we heard about them after we handed the three.  We were told that there are other people from Zambia, but then Ntombi said she would like to see one of the three first.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Was Gipsman also a terrorist?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was he also killed do you think?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know.

MR VISSER: Ja well you also don't know whether the others were killed, you said you drew an inference that they were killed.  You inferred that they were killed, isn't that right?  Sbu, for example, you don't know that he was killed, do you?

CHAIRPERSON: He knew that the one was killed of the other three, because he was shot in the kombi.

MR VISSER: Correct Chairperson, I should have ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But the other two, Sbu and the man that was handed over at the false roadblock.

MR VISSER: Those two, do you know that they were killed?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is what I think.

MR VISSER: Yes, you drew an inference, you think so.  Alright.  Now you say that you were given weapons in order to obtain some credibility with Ms Kubheka, is that right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Who gave you those weapons?  Can you remember?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I think it was Botha, if I still remember well.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You seem to have your knife in for Mr Botha, don't you Mr Mbane, because let me tell you that Mr Botha gave evidence here to say that he didn't know anything about that.  Were you here and did you hear that evidence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Which thing are you talking about that Botha ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: That he knows anything about you being given weapons to go and show Kubheka.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't what to say if he says that.  Where do we get weapons then, because we got weapons when we arrived her in Durban?

MR VISSER: Yes, so you say ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You said - this is my note, you were asked who gave you the weapons and your answer was, what I wrote down
"I think it was Botha, if I remember well"
Now what does that mean, it may not be Botha?  
"I think it was Botha, if I remember well"
Are you saying it was Botha, or are you assuming it must have been Botha, or you can't remember?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I am still saying that if my memory serves me well, I think it was Botha.

MR VISSER: That makes it crystal clear, Chairperson.
	Now you see, Mr Botha - did you hear Mr Botha deny that he gave you these weapons?  That he said that he knew nothing about  this, did you hear when he gave that evidence?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: Did you then tell your attorney "I don't agree with that, Botha is wrong"?  Did you tell your attorney that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It is because at that time I did not give evidence, so I did not dispute that.

MR VISSER: Yes, nor did your attorney place that in dispute.  Aright.  You say you were the one that suggested that they should find a place where you could stay when you were here from Vlakplaas, and not to stay at CR Swart, is that what you're saying?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct, because that place was not safe.