Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-02

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now as a follow-up to Mr Chairperson's question, did you know that Mr Diahomonaheng was Nkopani at the time?  How did you know that is Mr Diahomonaheng, Nkopani was Diahomonaheng, was he using the same name?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I knew him as Nkopani.  I then met him in prison and he then told me his real names.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you take the Committee - now when you arrived at the shop, at the vegetable shop, can you take the Committee through what happened, what was your plan?  Who was going to get inside the shop and demand money, where was the other placed?  Can you take the Committee through those steps?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: We planned that I was going to be the first one to enter the shop and then one would stand at the door and one would be inside, the one who was not armed, that is Tando.  I was going to be the one who would demand money from the owner.  That was our plan.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you go according to the plan?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.  When we got there we continued according to our plan.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you in details tell the Committee how did you shoot the owner of the shop?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Then I told him to hold up, we were next to the door, the phone was next to the door.  I went inside and one was outside and Tando was inside.  When he said that he did not have money I decided to look for the money.  When I was looking for the money he tried to grab my firearm, I then shot him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How many people were in the shop when you entered the shop?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: There was the owner and other black people but I don't remember how many they were.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened to those people who were inside the shop when you entered?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: These people were standing, they were not moving.  After this operation we left them there, standing there.  They were not injured, nothing happened to them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did you do after leaving the premises, what mode of transport, did you use the same transport you came with?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, we used the same transport.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you meet Mr Maseko and Ntjebe after this operation?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, that is correct.  We gave him the money, the money we took there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bhani, are you saying that there was just the one shot fired in the operation, namely the shot that you fired at the owner?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, I only shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only shot fired by any of the operatives?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Nkopani shot but he was facing the station.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying that the only shot that was fired inside the shop was the only one which was fired from your gun?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you shoot again at any stage, after you left or before you came inside the vegetable shop?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: No, we didn't do random shooting before we went inside the shop.  I just shot the owner of the shop.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, do you know the reason why Nkopane fired a shot in the direction of the station, as you put it?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.  He shot because he saw the security guards next to the station.  He thought they would try to protect or to shoot.  We then ran away after that shot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You mentioned in your affidavit that you were arrested, how long after the incident were you arrested?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I was arrested on the 26th of September.

CHAIRPERSON: '94?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So it was a long time after the incident?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: After how long were you released?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: For this operation?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, for this operation.

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I was released after a year because I was involved in the Wesselsbron case.  They would fetch me and try to investigate about this matter.  They then realised or found out that there is not enough evidence.  We were then released in 1995, before I was sentenced for the Wesselsbron Supermarket case.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all at this stage, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Were you given instructions to carry out the operation by two separate commanders?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I was the unit commander.  I got an instruction from one commander, Mr Ntjebe, Tabelo Patrick Maseko.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So he is the - Mr Maseko is the one, the only one who gave you the instructions for this operation, am I correct?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now if you have a look at your application, page 3 of the bundle under question 11(b).  I will read for convenience - that is where it says you must state the name and address of the persons who gave such order or approval and you say
"We were ordered to go and keep the struggle forward and the order came from Director of Operations, comrade Raymond Letklapa Mphahlele."
Surely Letklapa is not Maseko?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I mentioned his name because he was the Director of Operations of the overall armed struggle, of the operations of the armed struggle.  In other words I mentioned him because he was the overall commander of the operations.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did Mr Letklapa Mphahlele physically give an order inasfar as this operation is concerned?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: The person I gave a report to was Mr Ntjebe.  Maybe he was given an instruction to give it to me but I was given instructions by him, Mr Ntjebe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you said you reconnoitred the place before you could launch the attack, for how long was it reconnoitred?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, we reconnoitred the place for about two weeks.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who was doing the reconnoitring?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: It was myself.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be correct to state that the killing of the shop owner, the fruit shop owner, was an unfortunate mistake?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, the killing of the owner was his mistake because he wanted to grab my firearm, I then shot him by mistake.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: By trying to protect himself he was making a mistake, he was causing his death, is that what you are saying?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: He couldn't just throw himself in a firearm, it was obvious that I was going to retaliate when he was doing that, so he made a mistake for trying to grab my firearm.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll repeat what I said initially.  His death was a mistake by yourself, is that correct?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, because the aim was not to kill him but it was to get money.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now where on the body did you shoot him?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: At the front.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In front where, in front where, Mr Bhani?  In the forehead, the neck, below?  All this portion is the front.

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: In his body.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On the chest, as you indicate.  And how many times did you shoot there?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I didn't count but I was using an  automatic.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  How many bullets does that automatic load?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: 30.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 30?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you pulled and the bullets went off, you cannot tell how many?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: No, I cannot tell, I didn't count, I just shot.  They went one after the other.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The possibility of having released four or five cannot be excluded?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Maybe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you say when you entered there he was busy on the telephone, you asked for money and then you say he tried to grab the firearm, where was the phone at that time because he was busy on the line?  Or to be direct, how could he grapple with the firearm when he was busy holding the phone and talking?