Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MR ZILWA: Now you say you were armed with a rifle.  Would it be correct to assume that the rifle you were armed with, is the one that was left with you by Max Ntekiso, the MK cadre who was deployed in your area?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Now, the two handgrenades you have mentioned, who had supplied those?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: A Self Defence Unit, we decided, in fact we were resolved that we should organise firearms for ourselves.  Now, I cannot be specific as to where did we get the grenades, but it happened that Vuyani had a good contact with somebody who really brought those two handgrenades in our Unit.

MR ZILWA: So in short, you say the handgrenades were actually furnished by Vuyani, and just to get it straight, it is correct that Vuyani Nyalukana is the man with whom you appeared in your trial, and who was later killed when the trail was still proceeding?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: And he was also the owner of the bakkie which conveyed you people of Flagstaff to Port St Johns?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Right, so that accounts for the two handgrenades.  The other pistol that was in the possession of Lungile Mazwi, where did it come from?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Another pistol, I can also not going to be exact where did it come from.  I think since we had that resolution that we should buy the arms or we should really make sure that we had arms, then it happened that a comrade bought the arm and submitted it to the Unit.
	Even there I cannot really be exact as to who really brought the pistol, but we had an access of these arms because any comrade who was within the Unit, who happened to have an arm, would submit and register it so that we can be in a position to use it, whatever it deemed necessary.

MR ZILWA: In other words, of your own knowledge you are not in a position to say where this pistol actually came from, all that you can say is that it must have come from one of the members of the Self Defence Unit?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I cannot be exact.

MR ZILWA: Right.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, that sounds very vague to me.  Did you not say Lungile Mazwi had the pistol?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, Lungile had the pistol, but it didn't belong to him.  It was not his own pistol, it was the pistol of the Unit you see.

ADV SANDI: You don't know where he got it from?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: It happened that some of the arms would be in the possession, would be in the safeguard of comrade Vuyani Nyalukana because he was the one who was living in a bit free style as I was, because he was living alone, but I still got the families and so on, so there was no need that we should have many firearms at our possession because of the families.
	Now, Vuyani Nyalukana was serving as our, maybe our arsenal because he was the one who was having these arms.  Now at the time Lungile Mazwi was given that firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: In any case, you say you don't know where he got it from and if he should give evidence, he can tell us?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, he can tell us, I don't know.

MR ZILWA: All right, please carry on Mr Maxhayi.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Now, on our arrival now at Port St Johns, we met with the two comrades, Fundisile Guleni and Pumelele Hermans.
	We asked them as to where are these people whom they were really suspecting them as if they were there to destabilise.  They did not show us, but instead, they came up with another thing, with another advice, because according to our information in the sub-region, these people were at town, they were living right at Port St Johns town, you see, according to the data they had provided to us.
	Now, instead of now showing us this people there in town, because even themselves they were living at Port St Johns at town, so they told us that no, it would not be wise enough to launch an attack there at town, because that would really raise an alarm to the local police there and the Transkei TTF which had a base at Port St Johns.
	So now, they come up with another advice that for this operation to be carried out smoothly, these people are also using a certain coast referred to as Gomolo, as their place where they are planning their things and so on in an effort to destabilise the movement in the area.
	So, we agreed then that we should attack in that area, to avoid an unexpected response from the police and the TTF there.

MR ZILWA: Let me get the facts straight.  From Flagstaff there were three of you and you were moving in the late Vuyani Nyalukana's motor vehicle.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Correct.

MR ZILWA: It was yourself, Lungile Mazwi and Vuyani Nyalukana himself and on your arrival at Port St Johns, you met Pumelele Hermans and Fundisile Guleni, your co-applicants and they are the ones you spoke to?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR ZILWA: Right.  Now, if I understood you correctly, you were armed with the rifle, Mazwi was armed with a pistol and Vuyani himself was not particularly armed with anything.  Now these handgrenades that you have mentioned, where were they?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: They were in the vehicle.  They were in the motor vehicle.

MR ZILWA: Now, with regard to the weapons that you were going to use in the operation, did you have any need for any further weapons or were you satisfied with what you had?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: We were satisfied, I would say.  That is myself, the three of us from Flagstaff were satisfied.

MR ZILWA: Right.  So, this advice came from these members from Port St Johns that it would not really be safe for you to attack the target in town, and as such since they were planning their operations in this coastal resort, you should rather attack near the Gomolo resort as you have stated.  Please carry on.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I think that I would  like the Commission to take a look at that.  On our arrival there, the comrades there, that is the two comrades of Port St Johns, they were also for the retaliation.  They were also interested in that.

MR ZILWA: In other words they wanted to join the operation of carrying out the retaliation you have spoken about?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Please carry on.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, we agreed on that.  It was on the 11th, it was on the 12th, Monday, we agreed on that, but the only problem that the comrades of Port St Johns had, was that at their possession, they were having no arms because they were not sure of the manpower which, they were not sure of the manpower which would be needed at the operation.
	Now, their feeling was that it would be better for them to also have arms.  They asked us to help them, taking them to another comrade at a certain administrative area, Majola, where they could be in a position to get the arms for themselves.
	We agreed upon that.  We went to Majola, they met the comrade.  Unfortunately ...

MR ZILWA: Sorry, you just mentioned a comrade in Majola.  Who was this comrade?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: This comrade was Zongizela Mxhiza.

MR ZILWA: That would be your co-accused in the criminal trial, that you faced before the High Court, the Supreme Court of Transkei?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR ZILWA: Okay, so on your arrival at Majola, you came, you met Zongizela Mxhiza, please carry on.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: We met Zongizela Mxhiza, to us from Flagstaff, we are not familiar with the guy because he was not a member of the sub-region.
	He was only familiar to the two comrades.  Now according to the report that he gave them, was that he had no firearm at the moment even himself, but he could assist them getting the two arms from another two comrades in that area, Majola.
	So, they went to the two comrades, but unfortunately I cannot remember their names now, but one of them was referred to as Timan, I don't know his full names.   The other one, I really don't know him at all with any name.