Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-08

DR KNOBEL: Mr Vally, what I understood from Mr Lourens or Doctor Lourens was that this had occurred at SRD in the years, '83, '84, '85.  We did not have Roodeplaat Research Laboratories at that stage.

MR VALLY: Did you follow it up at all, did you do anything about it?

DR KNOBEL: I testified to that effect, that I confronted General Liebenberg without telling him that his name specifically was mentioned and that his response was that this the kind that the d'Oliviera Commission will be investigating.

MR VALLY: Well you've made a subsequent report to the NIA about various improprieties on the part of Doctor Basson.  Did you ever raise this issue with them?

DR KNOBEL: It came up at a later stage certainly, but when I had the briefing from, not NIA, NIS at the time, with Minister Coetzee in February '94 and they indicated the allegations and indications that there were a very large number of such incidents, I was satisfied that they were aware of this and I also dealt with General Meiring and Mr Coetzee and the President in that regard.

MR VALLY: Did you ever raise it yourself with the NIS?

DR KNOBEL: I say again at a later stage I did not raise it at that time.

MR VALLY: By your own admission, the medical, chemical, technical aspects and implications of the programme that cost the country possibly millions and millions of rands were areas outside your expertise, yet you were the highest ranking medical professional in the military, ostensibly overseeing Brigadier Basson at the Co-ordinating Committee meetings.

DR KNOBEL: Are you posing a question Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Yes.

DR KNOBEL: What is the question?

MR VALLY: Surely you should have realised that you were inadequately qualified to deal with these matters and be representing the military and making suggestions regarding these issues?

DR KNOBEL: Mr Vally, I don't quite understand your question.  I am appointed as Surgeon General, I inherit a project which I must help co-ordinate with the Co-ordinating Management Committee.  Are you saying to me that I should have gone to the Chief of the Defence Force or the Minister or the Cabinet, because my appointment was a Cabinet appointment, and say to them: "Listen, I am not in a position to carry out this task, please take this away from me", is that what you are suggesting to me?  Are you suggesting that the man who runs a garage must also be a mechanic in order to be able to do it?

MR VALLY: I'm suggesting something very simple to you.  I'm suggesting that you were not in the position to have advised the Co-ordinating Committee on developments in this area, Chemical and Biological Warfare, and you should have told them directly that: "We need an independent overseer or we need sufficient technical expertise to oversee this programme whilst I am Surgeon General and I have inherited this project, I cannot approve budgets running into millions and millions or rands, I cannot approve whether ...[intervention]

DR KNOBEL: I didn't approve the budgets, the Co-ordinating Management Committee approved the budgets.

MR VALLY: Yes, but regarding the technical side of it, who did they rely on?

DR KNOBEL: On Brigadier Basson and myself certainly.

MR VALLY: Even after improprieties were discovered, the ongoing usage of Brigadier Basson to the extent where all information was obtained from Brigadier Basson involving our technical and biological warfare capacity to onto discs, was irresponsible.  By this stage you were aware there were major question marks regarding Brigadier Basson, not only financial improprieties but other activities of Brigadier Basson and that by not taking further action or making sure that you safeguarded yourself from abuse by Brigadier Basson, we are now in a situation where proliferation may have taken place or may potentially take place and whereby the money spent on development on this Chemical and Biological Warfare capacities may have been totally wasted because we are entirely reliant on the words of Brigadier Basson, who potentially is a discredited person.  What do you see as your role in this, in retrospect, now that you are here, now that you have further information at your disposal?

DR KNOBEL: I will make remarks to this effect at the end of this hearing Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Well, I am about to come to the end of my questioning of you.  If you want to make any final comment please feel free to do so.