Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, this is an application of Tshoane, Mr Stanley Tshoane and six others.  This incident happened in the Wesselsbron Supermarket Attack in July '93, the 3rd of July to be exact, and the first applicant being that of Mr Mangalisekile Bhani.
	Indicated in the bundle is this ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR STEENKAMP: His application appears in the bundle on page 7 to 9.

CHAIRPERSON: Have we got a new list?  (Inaudible - mike not working).  Bhani will be No 1?

MR STEENKAMP: Bhani will be No 1, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct).

MR STEENKAMP: No 2 will be Stanley Tshoane.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think if you want the order of them, how are they going to give evidence, Mr Chairman, I can do that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to get some certainty about the names of the applicants.  Is, for example, Mr Raymond Leklapo Mpashlele one of the applicants?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, he's not one of the applicants, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: He's not?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, also is not an applicant, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry, Mr Chairman, we have seven applicants, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Seven.  Well then you'd better give us their names, you've got various lists, we have set down before us one list of five names.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, the only way I can give you, if you can take the affidavits of Bhani, the affidavits, it's going to be in that order, Mr Chairman, with the exception of Danny Sibande, who is not an applicant.  The affidavits, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we take them in the order they are in the bundle?

MR MBANDAZAYO: In the affidavit, Mr Chairman, the supplementary affidavits, signed ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us the paragraph in the affidavit that you're referring to?

MR MALAN: Mr Chairman, it's the affidavit, this one, by Bhani, they are going to appear in that order, in that fashion, Mr Chairman, in the affidavit, in the heading of the affidavit, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In the order they appear in the heading?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That is Bhani, Ngesi, Khotle ...(intervention).

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tshoane.

CHAIRPERSON: Tshoane, Morrison, Mazete, Mohape ...(intervention).

MR STEENKAMP: And not Sibande.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Not Sibande, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Why is the name of Sibande on the affidavit?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, initially I thought that he was an applicant also, but it transpired that he has no - he did not apply for amnesty, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) solves one.  The second matter that I'd like to clarify is that we have been given a copy of Mr Morrison's application, and we've also been given one of Mr Mazetske's, which I've just discovered, and what is the position about Mr Mohape?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, there is an application, Mr Chairman, which I also wanted it to be dealt with, well if the Committee so wishes, and he has made an affidavit to that effect as to why his application was not before the Committee like the others, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that make it a valid application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, as I indicated that we are in the hands of the Committee, but when I consulted with him, Mr Chairman, last weekend in prison, he was transferred from Kroonstad, he told me that he did apply for amnesty regarding this matter, and it was on that basis that I assisted him in applying and drafting the affidavit, that he had made the application, and in that ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at his affidavit, he said he completed the form in the presence of the regional chair-person of the PAC and handed the form to him, who undertook to hand it in at the TRC office, and he's always been under the bona fide impression that it is before the Committee for consideration.  Now I have been carefully informed of the date and time of this hearing, has he received correspondence from the Amnesty Committee or the TRC, as an applicant?

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chairman, I stand only as an implicated party, only as an implicated party, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Could I refer you to the second page of Mr Mohape's affidavit?  In paragraph 6, under oath he says he applied whilst in prison in '95.  The Act only came into operation in December '95, and there was no procedure or no application form.  He's probably referring to a further indemnity application.  So, if we have to go by the date, paragraph 6, if we have to go by the date, it's impossible that it was an amnesty application.

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't say he applied in 1995.
MR MALAN
"Whilst in custody, I completed the prescribed form applying for amnesty."
And he says in 1995.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 6, first sentence, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: That probably refers to a further indemnity application.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I won't be in a position to say it was referring to further indemnity, Mr Chairman, the impression I got at that particular point in time, also myself, I must confess I didn't pick it up at that particular point in time, I took it for granted when he said that he filled and he completed the forms, maybe he was making a mistake about the year in which - but he was adamant that he did fill the application form.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we have had numerous other people who filled in the indemnity form and thought it was an amnesty form, but he also goes on in his affidavit, in paragraph 8, to say that it got lost or misplaced either by Lekotze or a person in the employ of the TRC.  Well surely we should at least have had an affidavit from Lekotze saying, "I lodged the form with the TRC".  He, the applicant now says Lekotze may have lost it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   ...(indistinct), Mr Chairman, I have been hoping that he would pitch up, I've tried, I've left messages for Mr Lekotze to come regarding this matter, because I wanted an affidavit to confirm with him.  He is here in Bloemfontein, but he hasn't managed to come back to me, so I'm in that predicament regarding this matter.  I had hoped that he would come here and clarify the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that it would be improper for us, on the information before us, to say there is a valid application before us, as has been pointed out, the date appears to be wrong and there's nothing to confirm that the application was ever lodged.  This is not a case, that we have had others, where the prison authorities have taken custody of the applications and have forwarded them and they have been mislaid, but this is not so, this is a member of his own political organisation who was entrusted with it.  I do not, however, wish to waste unnecessary time, and it seems to me, subject to the agreement of the members of my Committee, that we should hear the application on the basis that we do not accept that there is a valid application before us, that there is an onus on the applicant to obtain further information as to whether an application was in fact ever lodged, and to supply us with such information.  If that is done, we will then treat the application as a valid application and have regard to the evidence we have heard.  If it is not done, and I think there will have to be a time limit, we will dismiss the application on the basis that there was no valid application before us.
	Do you agree with that?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I agree with that, Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: No objectoin Mr Chairman.