Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 2000-10-09

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.  For the record, Wim Cornelius, from Cornelius Incorporated, I act on behalf of Mr Flores and I call him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.  There are no other appearances in this matter?

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, I'm appearing on behalf of the Witbank Church.  We have Father Rodrigues here today, Chairperson, so I will be acting on behalf of the Church, Chairperson, today.  I've taken instructions, Chairperson and we're not opposing the application, but I've been requested to put certain questions to the applicant.  Thank you Chairperson.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: (states under oath)

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Mr Cornelius.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Flores, you drew a proper application in terms of Section 18 of the Act which is reflected in the bundle before the Commissioners present on page 1, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chair, I wish to apply for a formal amendment of paragraph 7(a) and (b) on page 1, to reflect on 7(a), National Party and 7(b) supporter.  I understand from my colleague, the Evidence Leader, there would be no objection to that, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, under those circumstances, the amendment is granted.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Chair.  Now Mr Flores, you confirm your political objectives as fully amplified from folio 5, up until folio 13, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: In all times you acted as a supporter of the National Party?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: On Folio 14 you reflect your personal particulars, stating where you were born and your progress through to the C Section, Vlakplaas Unit of the police.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You also confirm your personal particulars as reflected in Folio 14, 15, 16, up until 17, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Now we're applying for two applications for amnesty which are reflected on Folio 23, the attempted assassination in Swaziland and then on Folio 26, the operation of the Church in Witbank which was subject to an arson attack, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Fine.  We shall now begin with the arson attack on the Witbank Church, which is reflected on Folio 26.  Mr Flores, you were an employee in the service of the South African Police as envisaged in Section 20(2)(b) and Section 20(2)(f) of the Act, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You were part of the notorious and well-known unit called Vlakplaas, of which evidence has been tendered before this Commission on various occasions and there is also a full document made available to the Commission in the possession of the Commission, setting out the operation of Vlakplaas Unit?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What I want - at the time when this offence was committed, on page 26, what was your rank?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I was a Sergeant, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Who was the Commander at that time of Vlakplaas?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Major Eugene de Kock at that stage.

MR CORNELIUS: I see.  And Mr Piet Snyders, reflected in this application, was he also at that time at Vlakplaas?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: He was, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Could you explain to the Commission, and I think it's important for the fact that the Church is present here today, how did the Security Branch and Vlakplaas operate?  Were there certain requests made?
Explain it please.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, Mr Chairperson.  The units of Vlakplaas, Mr Chairperson, would usually operate on the information received from various security branches in the various provinces at that stage, like for instance this case which came from the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch in Witbank.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.  So am I correct to say that the Security Branch of a particular area, directs a request to Vlakplaas and then it is passed by the Commander of Vlakplaas unit, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Now in this specific instance, was such a request made?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I presume there was, Mr Chairperson, because I was sent to the Witbank area.

MR CORNELIUS: I see.  From whom did you receive your instructions to go to the Witbank area?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: From Major Eugene de Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: And did you contact any specific person on Witbank Security?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, on arriving in Witbank, I had to report to the Branch Commander which at that point in time was Lieut Chris Rorich.

MR CORNELIUS: When you're in a specific Security area, under whose command do you fall then?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That area would be under the Middelburg Security Branch and direct under Lieut Chris Rorich.

MR CORNELIUS: What were your instructions?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: My instructions were from Lieut Chris Rorich that a Church hall in one of the black community areas had to be demolished, or burned down, as there was going to be a political rally the following day.

MR CORNELIUS: When you were employed in the Vlakplaas unit, did you work on the so-called need to know basis?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, we did, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What does that imply?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Mr Chairperson, as I could read it, if I received an order like that, that was the need to know basis and I wouldn't ask why and how and where.

MR CORNELIUS: So would you have questioned the information you received from Lieut Chris Rorich?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Not at all Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You accepted it?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you understand that this was against the so-called political enemy?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I did, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What did you do in preparation to raise the Church?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Myself and ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, you simply say in your application that it was a political rally.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR MALAN: What political rally was that?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: As I could understand, if I recall correctly, Mr Chairperson, it was the ANC Youth meeting, something to that effect.  I can't recall exactly.

MR CORNELIUS: You didn't understand it to be a National Party rally, or existing legal party rally?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You didn't expect it to be existing legal party?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What did you do in preparation?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Myself and my team of askaris purchased a whole lot of ingredients to make Russian cocktails, which was petrol, washing powder etc. and cloth.

MR CORNELIUS: Can I just interrupt?  Just for the sake of the Church, an askari, where are they employed?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: At C1, Vlakplaas.

MR CORNELIUS: Are they people that converted to work for the Vlakplaas Unit?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, more or less known as rehabilitated ANC terrorists, or Freedom Fighters, who were rehabilitated.

MR CORNELIUS: Fine.  Were you also assisted by members of another Security Branch, or not?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, there were members of Witbank Security Branch who assisted us.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you recall their names?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Not at all, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you explain to the Committee what is a Russian Cocktail?