Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: What effect did that have on your beliefs?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, it only fortified my beliefs that SWAPO was communist inspired and it would be a disaster if South Africa also came under an ANC/SACP government.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: From Koevoet, after your return, where did you join or where did you go to?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I joined the Intelligence Section at headquarters in Pretoria.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: In essence what was your post at the Intelligence Section all about?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well it was source recruitment and agent handling.  During this period we also had to do a lot with ANC documents, SACP documents, which constantly propagated the overthrow of the South African Government at the time.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did that have any specific effect on  you?

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, it also just merely confirmed my beliefs at the time.  I think after the 1985 Kabwe Conference of the ANC, the ANC became a lot more militant in its stance and the Setchaba and the various booklets reflected this stance.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Now in your application you mentioned that you were then transferred to Vlakplaas, would you just confirm that date that you went there.

FRANK MCCARTER: 1986, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: To that extent, Mr Chairman, the application is incorrect when it says '88, I beg leave to amend that, '86.
	How long did you remain at Vlakplaas?

FRANK MCCARTER: For two years, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And did you leave Vlakplaas towards the end of 1987?

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Where did you go to then?

FRANK MCCARTER: To the Section C2 which was Terrorism Research and Identification.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And finally, were you transferred to Pietermaritzburg in 1991?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And are you still a member of the force?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: When did you leave?

FRANK MCCARTER: At the end of last month.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr McCarter, we will now deal with the incident for which you have applied for amnesty and which is discussed here, that of Sipho Bhila.  Did you set the incident on pages 33 and 34 of your  application?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Would you proceed and basically read into the record what happened.  We will interrupt you at stages to highlight certain aspects.
MR McCARTER
"Mr Chairman, Sipho Bhila was an accused, not in the Andrew Zondo case but in one of the related cases.  I think it was called Ramlakan, Doctor Ramlakan and others.  He was subsequently acquitted and released ..."

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: For the record, is that the case of the STATE vs DUDZILE CHARITY BABY BUTHELEZI AND 11 OTHERS I think, under Case No CC70/86?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's as far as I recollect, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Alright, please proceed.
MR McCARTER
"At that stage I was stationed at Vlakplaas.  We were down in Durban on routine duties.  On Friday of the 20th of February I met Major Andy Taylor, he briefed us about Bhila and the fact that he had been acquitted and that there was good information that he would continue with his activities.  Mr Bhila at the time, according to all the information, was a locally trained cadre."

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you know him personally or did you have anything to do with him, any part of the investigation at any stage?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: When you refer to Major Andy Taylor, is this the late, well later Colonel Andy Taylor?

FRANK MCCARTER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes, please proceed.
MR McCARTER
"He requested us to pick up Bhila and take him out and eliminate him."

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: If you say "eliminate", what do you mean by that?

FRANK MCCARTER: To kill him.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes, please proceed.
MR McCARTER
"I instructed on of our Askaris who worked under my command to contact Bhila under the guise of an ANC cadre, that the ANC had instructed him to leave the country and that he should meet this Askari at a certain place.
	That Sunday the Askari left and made contact with Bhila and we waited near Lamontville for Ernest to arrive with this Bhila, where we intercepted them.  We then took Bhila to what used to be the old railway shooting range at Winkelspruit.  I'm not too sure at what time of the day we'd intercepted Bhila but anyway he was kept there throughout the day until evening, whereupon we put him in a vehicle together with myself, Steve Bosch, Rosslee, Lawrie Wasserman and Michael Lembede."

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: If I might just interrupt you there, who were these people?  Steve Bosch, let's deal with him.

FRANK MCCARTER: Steve Bosch and Adrian Rosslee were both Vlakplaas members who worked under my command on that particular trip.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And Wasserman and Lembede?

FRANK MCCARTER: They were both members of the Durban Security Branch.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Were there any other members present at that time?

FRANK MCCARTER: Not that I recall of, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Right.  You were talking about a vehicle, who drove the vehicle?

FRANK MCCARTER: I'm not too sure, it wasn't me.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Please proceed.
MR McCARTER
"We drove on the Umbumbulo Road, I just know it was in Umbumbulo Road because I'd been told about that but I'm afraid how far and where we turned off and that, I've got no recollection of it.  It was, the whole area was deserted due to faction fighting that had been taking place over the last couple of months.  We drove to a spot where there was a steep cliff."

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Now if I may interrupt you there, Mr McCarter, would you be able to identify that spot at all?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman, it was dark and I didn't know the area at all.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Please proceed.
MR McCARTER
"Mr Bhila had a bag over his head, so he was unaware of where he was going.  We then informed him that he was there to meet somebody, that we were there to meet somebody.  We got out of the motor vehicle and walked him to the edge of the cliff whereupon I shot him in the head."

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: How many times did you shoot him?

FRANK MCCARTER: Once, Mr Chairman, and Mr Rosslee also fired a shot into his head.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes, and then?
MR McCARTER
"And then myself and Lembede threw him off the edge of the cliff."

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: After that did you return to Durban?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Would in you summary say why was it that he was killed?

FRANK MCCARTER: We were of the belief that it was in the interests of the safety of the State that he be killed and that had he carried on living he would have carried on with terrorist activities.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Now Mr McCarter, you have specifically on page 36 - Mr Chairman, 36, paragraph 10(a) of your amnesty application dealt with political objects sought to be achieved by this particular act that you have just related to, would you confirm that these are the political objects that you sought to achieve, as you set out in the ...?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Would you briefly sketch what these were.

FRANK MCCARTER: Well the conflict between the liberation movement and the, liberation movements and the South African Government, and I felt that it was a situation of war and that we were perfectly justified in fighting this war.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Just for the record, you have referred in your amnesty application to certain submissions made by General J V van der Merwe, ex-Commissioner of Police to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee and you've also annexed that to you amnesty application.

FRANK MCCARTER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Do you confirm that you agree with those submission?

FRANK MCCARTER: I do, Mr Chairman.