Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, I did.  I made a request that they had to organise a place for me, I cannot remember who I got of my people, they told me that a room had been organised for me in the Officers' quarters and I cannot remember, I did contact Lt van Dyk or I think so, and at a stage, some of the people had already been deployed.  As they arrived here, they were deployed and others were being deployed at that stage.

MR HUGO: Can I just ask you, if we just quickly look at Exhibit D again, the date of the request for this AK47 was the 3rd of June, if you have to put a date on the time of arrival in Durban, when more or less do you think, did you arrive in Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I cannot say.  I have no independent memory of this.  I really cannot tell you.

MR HUGO: Nevertheless you had then arrived in Durban and did you then occupy yourself with the organising and the division of certain askari groups and also other members of Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, when I arrived here, some of the members had already been deployed, they apparently just loaded their stuff off, they had already been deployed and others were being deployed as far as I can remember.

MR HUGO: What was your function?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Can you please repeat?

MR HUGO: What was your function when you arrived here and you found that the deployment had already been done?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I was the Overall Commander.  Lt van Dyk was in command up to that point, I was the Overall Commander and naturally this would be a management function.

MR HUGO: What was your interpretation of the mandate that had been given to the different groups?  The mandate that they had to execute and the functions that they had to execute?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, there was an unknown terrorist and as was mentioned, an ANC terrorist group that was operating, they were unknown. There were no particulars at that point that was available about them that I had received at that point.   They had to be searched for.  There were no specific information that could pinpoint them in a specific area or a house or a suburb.

MR HUGO: Is it then correct that a whole lot of discretion had been left over to the groups to decide for themselves where these flashpoints would be and then to try to almost on a haphazard way, try and obtain information?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, yes, because we did not come from this area, proposals would have come from the Durban Security Branch, specifically from Col Taylor who was part of Counter-Terrorism.  This was as a result of I can almost say looking for a needle in a haystack.  There as I said, was not a specific area that had been pinpointed and this would have been a case of information handled as you received the information on the ground and then the people who were in command there, would then decide how would be continue from here.

MR HUGO: If we accept that the application for the AK47 was done on the 3rd of June, and this incident had taken place on the 20th of June, do you have any recollection of what happened in this time?  This would be between the 3rd of June and the 20th of June?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the people would have continued their search.   I believe that we continued to search until we got information.  You do not stop, you continue, you keep on deploying people in different areas, you do roadblocks, moving roadblocks, you cover the train stations, the bus stations, the taxi stands, you go on recruiting sources and you attempt to gain the necessary information to find the people that you were there for.

MR HUGO: We have heard lots of evidence about the ways in which the askaris had been deployed, is it correct that the askaris served under a group leader, normally this would be a black police officer or a black member of the Force, that would then have a couple of askaris under him and that they would then be operating in teams in different areas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, this is correct.

MR HUGO: Would you please tell us with which weaponry were the askaris issued and also the group leader who was a member of the Force, in the normal course of events.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, if I can put it this way, your askari or your former ANC or PAC member had his service pistol which was a P38, it was a 9mm revolver or a Baretta 9mm.  The female staff, or the female staff in the Force would have been white or black, was issued with a .32 Walter pistol because of the fact that their hands were smaller and they had a smaller handgrip and then your group leaders and some of the askaris, of your senior people, were issued with an Uzi or HMK, a sub-machine gun.  Every vehicle that the group leader was responsible for, had a bag, a sail bag and normally this had two R1s with two magazines, two Browning rifles and SSG ammunition and then Uzi's had also been given to them, two Uzi's with four or five magazines each, two sets of handcuffs, between three and four feetcuffs, smoke teargas grenades had been given to them and then also flares and then we also gave them smoke grenades of different colours, if it would be necessary to call in the helicopter.  This bag with all this equipment in , the section leader was in charge of it, if he came back to Vlakplaas, then the weapons would be cleaned and it would be locked up in his personal safe that was issued to him at Vlakplaas.

MR HUGO: And this would then be so that every group leader had the use of mostly a kombi or one of these mini-buses?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HUGO: The evening of this incident and we know that, it is common cause that it was the 20th of June, did you know that Messrs Nortje and his team were departing to execute an operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I accept it that I knew.  I cannot remember this far back, but I accept that I knew.

MR HUGO: What had your perception been of the aim of this operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: They went in to go and look for terrorists Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Were there other groups during this evening that had also departed to go and look for terrorists themselves?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HUGO: You remained at C R Swart in the Officers' quarters?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HUGO: At some stage, did you go to sleep?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I did.

MR HUGO: What happened then?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the morning early I was woken up, I cannot remember what the time was, it was early in the morning.  Nortje was there, Vermeulen was there and van Dyk was with them.  Nortje told me that our people had been involved in a shooting, people had been killed, not of my people but other people had been shot.  I cannot remember if he gave me a number, he couldn't tell me how many people had been wounded and that it was in the Chesterville area.

MR HUGO: What was your reaction?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I put on my clothes and I am not sure whether I first went to Chesterville or went into that area or if I went to the nearest police station there, but I did contact Col Taylor because he, on his turn, had to report to the Division Head at Durban of the Security Branch.  I think, I am not sure of this, I think I found him at the police station from where Nortje and them had received the information.  We did wait because they had to send people for us, I think some of the service men of the army had gone with us to go and secure the area.  Chesterville at that point was also referred to as a sort of liberated area, that belonged to the comrades.  I think that a group of the local Investigation Branch had also come along.

MR HUGO: And eventually you visited the scene yourself?