Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

MR LAX: But you see it goes further than that, because they then go on to talk about the failure of the pills and the trying to poison him and that's where the question of chemicals - it's in addition to the re-working of the tablets.  If you read it carefully you'll see that's what he's saying.  So that's the second phase of the operation, because the fact is that once the - you couldn't get the tablets in the end and then you used a powder instead.

MR VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR LAX: And the object of the powder was to poison him.  So what's being said here on page 35, is exactly in line with the plan, and what he says in essence is, he knows nothing about it.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR LAX: So even if you're using a strict interpretation, in the previous page he's talking about tablets and he's saying well, he didn't know anything about the tablets, it was a powder.  Here he's now saying he knows nothing about the powder either. So the question still stands, in essence, and that is if he says he didn't know anything about the powder, would that be a lie?

MR VAN ZYL: Let me answer it in the following way, Mr Chairperson, and that is that I up to the day, if I remember correctly it was the 13th of September 1989, that I'd received the powder from Nick at a hotel at the airport, at Jo'burg International Airport, up to that day I was still thinking that I would receive pills and it was only there that I had for the first time seen that they were giving me powder in a bottle.  So I do not know if Basson had known that there are pills or there is powder or there is no pills and powder, I can't answer that.  Only on that day I became aware of the fact that it is powder and not pills.

UNKNOWN: But Mr van Zyl, it's also rather a strange statement for Mr Basson to be making in general, because we know that his main function was logistics, so one would have expected that if he's involved in logistics and procurement, he would be integrally involved in this process.  He's telling us he wasn't, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: In this specific incident regarding the pills, where I gave evidence, I told you what his role was.  I just want to mention it to you that even though Wouter had been the Co-ordinator and responsible for obtaining logistic support from contact persons and obtaining for instance, salaries that would have been paid over to us and other supporting instruments, it is also the case that Mr Basson from time to time regularly was absent himself, where he was involved with other projects that I do not know of, but as a result of which he could not get to us a Co-ordinator, and in those cases a person like Nick would for instance keep contact with us as the Co-ordinator.

UNKNOWN: This man from the Medical Regiment, was he called anything at the meeting?

MR VAN ZYL: He had name, but unfortunately I cannot remember it.  It would have been a pseudonym in any case.  I saw him on two occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have a rank?  Did you call him Captain or Colonel or ...?

MR VAN ZYL: No, no, Chairperson, we were all working under pseudonyms.

UNKNOWN: Now the charge sheet in the Dr Wouter Basson case refers to a Dr R J Botha, alias Koos, whose job was that of Medical Co-ordinator of the CCB.

MR VAN ZYL: I do not know him.  His name does not ring a bell with me.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  You then have a meeting on the 12th of September in Cape Town, and that appears from page 115 of bundle A, paragraph 55, starting on the bottom of page 115, you say
"On Tuesday the 12th of September (and now I'm turning over to page 116) I met Barnard in Cape Town and I wanted to hear how the monitoring of Omar was going.  I was told that it was continuing.  Later on I met Barnard and Peaches again and Barnard told me that he was finished with the monitoring of Omar and that he would be returning to Jo'burg.  On the same day I flew back to Jo'burg.
			Later I met Botha and Nick in a hotel at the airport where I gave R10 000 back to Nick.  The R10 000 was related to the Omar project.  Nick then gave me a white-coloured powder in a small bottle.  Nick told me that the powder came from the Regional Manager and that it had to be sprinkled over Omar's food because they could not manufacture the pills.  The powder would also give Omar a heart attack.  I took it and then went back to the Cape.
			On the same day I met Peaches at the DF Malan Airport and I gave him the bottle, with the instruction to sprinkle the content thereof over Omar's food."
Now this meeting with Barnard and Peaches, they're both present at the same meeting, is that correct?

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot remember, I would have said that yes, they were in all probability both present.

UNKNOWN: What was explained to Peaches as to what Barnard's role was in the Omar affair?  Was Peaches told "This guy's job is to watch you"?

MR VAN ZYL: To together with him help to make new proposals if necessary, so that we can execute the project.  In other words, he saw Barnard in a supporting role.

UNKNOWN: Why were you giving Nick this R10 000 back?

MR VAN ZYL: I was requested to do so, because as I have already testified, as a result of the fact that the then President, PW Botha, then suffered from a heart attack and Mr FW de Klerk had become the new President, our internal projects were all brought to a halt and all funds that were at our disposal, we had to give back to the organisation and this is the reason why I flew up to give him the money back and also to get the powder from him.

UNKNOWN: Your evidence is entirely contradictory, if all projects were being stopped, how could you be continuing the execution of a project to murder Adv Omar?

MR VAN ZYL: I had permission to continue with that project, from the Regional Manager because it was an authorised project.  I think you must understand that no new projects were submitted that could have been executed, no new submissions were made from the 1st of September.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, the evidence that was given at the Harms Commission was something along the following lines, it was said that PW Botha knew about the CCB and their activities, but FW de Klerk didn't, so that when FW de Klerk became the State President, until such time as he was informed, the CCB would not, as far as internal activities were concerned, would not conduct any further internal activities.  Was that your understanding?

MR VAN ZYL: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: This not withstanding, the CCB decides to continue with the project to assassinate an extremely high profile political leader in the Western Cape, how can that possibly make sense?

MR VAN ZYL: That is what I'm telling you, my understanding was that all projects that had been approved up to the 1st of September had to be finalised and that no new project after the 1st of September, would be presented until Mr FW de Klerk was informed of the existence of the CCB.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, just to take a hypothetical scenario, Adv Omar is then killed a week later in circumstances where FW de Klerk knows nothing about the project, how could it possibly help to say "We're stopping all projects but those which have prior approval can continue"?  Because the problems for the CCB leadership when called in by FW de Klerk, to explain why this has happened, would be the same.  I don't understand your answer.

MR VAN ZYL: No, I think you are insinuating in this case, I mean you are making a hypothetical statement, I do not think that the previous State President or Mr PW Botha was informed about every project and the project relating to Omar.  I think he was aware of our existence as a unit, as part of the Defence Force, but the extent to which he was aware of the projects that were handled by us, I cannot say.  I hear what you're saying, but I think that question can be answered by the General.