Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-23

PULENG SWAARBOOI: And then I came back.  I got back home, I stayed for some time, about three years.  When I got back with these papers I looked around for Ramokgopa's family because I did not know them.  I sent my sister's daughter  to look around for this family in Diepkloof.  I think those people also do not know what we know and, truly, they left to look around for the Ramokgopa's family in Diepkloof and they got back and they did not find them.  The following day the same thing happened and finally they got back and they said we found them.  One of the family representatives of Ramokgopa came to my place.  I told, I gave her to look and I showed her the pictures and I asked is this your child as well?  She said, yes.
 Then she told me that let us meet at the ANC offices on Monday and, truly, we went there on Monday.  I explained to them and they referred me to Mr Emlangeni in Anderson Street.  There was an office there in Anderson Street.  We went to tell Mr Emlangeni.  Mr Emlangeni told us that it was difficult during those days ...

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon, excuse us, can we please have order.
SOWETO HEARING GAUTENG PROVINCE
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There is a disturbing noise from the back.  We may, please let us maintain order for the sake of restoring the witnesses dignity.  Please, please.

PULENG SWAARBOOI: Truly, we went to Mr Emlangeni and Mr Emlangeni told us that it was so difficult those days because they could not even let us know about the death of our children.  He actually told us that those children died even here in South Africa, not even in Botswana.  So, really, they should have let us know, but they could not.

MS SEROKE: When they were shooting Bushy you say he was shot by the police by the helicopter.  What were they doing at the time, who were they actually, in violence of some kind or what?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: Bushy said to my when they were going to Jababu office, when they were on their way to Jababu office there was a helicopter that was flying so low around and it started shooting even before they got to Jababu.

MS SEROKE: What were they going to do in Jababu's office?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: I do not know because Bushy was a member ... and when we ask him why are you coming late at home he said, no, we are just practising at school.  We actually did not know what was happening in 1976.  We only got to know after.

MS SEROKE: So at that time you did not know that Bushy was politically active as a member of the SRC?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: I did not know.

MS SEROKE: Now, he was injured, he was taken to hospital.  When he got back from hospital he left for Protea.  Did he stay there for some time in Protea or they only questioned him?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: No, they just cautioned him and I came back with him.
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MS SEROKE: And in your statement you say four months after that Bushy disappeared at home.  Did he not actually say?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: Bushy was never, the police never, were never following Bushy anyway.  He was not even showing any signs of being active in politics at school and he actually never showed any signs of the fact that he could leave the country.  He was still young at the time.

MS SEROKE: Now, you say you could only get to see him in 1983 in Botswana with your elder sister.  Where he was in Botswana, it was your brother's place.  Now they took him from there.  Why were they taking him?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: When my brother said to me, he actually said he was not safe there.  He had to leave.  He said the South African Police came to Botswana, they were actually looking for some children and he was not safe.

MS SEROKE: But when you saw him in Botswana, talking to him, did you actually ask him what do you want in Botswana?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: Yes, I asked him and he said he was a member of MK.

MS SEROKE: So all the details that they shot him in the Western Transvaal, you actually saw those from the documents, all the documents?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: Yes, I saw that from the documents.  I got the documents from Bushy's girlfriend because she knew those people.  You see when they leave from the camp they will go to her.  That is where they were hiding.  So they gave her those documents at the time.

MS SEROKE: Can you explain to us, briefly, that all those documents, they are saying actually what happened when Bushy was killed?

INTERPRETER: She did not get the question.
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8 P SWAARBOOI

MS SEROKE: I am saying from those documents that you read from, can you actually explain how did, how was he killed, what happened that led to his death?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: On the document they actually tell me that those two children, Bushy and the other one, they actually ran short of the ammunition and they got to a point or they discovered that the police actually were more powerful than them.  That is how they died.

MS SEROKE: You told us that you never heard that, you wish to know where are his remains, you do not even know where he was buried.

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not on.

PULENG SWAARBOOI: I can be very much happy if I can get Bushy's corpse, Bushy's bones, even where he was buried.  According to our custom we have to go where he was killed to get his spirit.  If he was buried by any chance there we shall dig and get the remaining bones and take them back home.  That is according to our custom.

MS SEROKE: Now, you are saying you spoke to the ANC and asked them why they did not tell you and after they explained and they asked for apology to you, did you actually, did they actually say anything or did they do something for you regarding his death?

PULENG SWAARBOOI: No, there is nothing that they did for me.

MS SEROKE: I thank you.  Hlengiwe, are you going to refer this to other Commissioners before the other lady or?

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any things that you would like to say as well?  I am talking about Ramokgopa.