Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

UNKNOWN: I said we used to have a lot of ritual murder cases here and when they increased here Judges in this court in Venda did not wear gloves.  They really went for ritual murderers, they were hanged.  They were given heavy sentences.  I said, as a result of that we have got very few similar cases and all of those that have in fact followed after 1992, none of them had politics.

MR VAN RENSBURG: After which period, can you just repeat that?

UNKNOWN: After say 1994, we had cases which could be explained traditionally.  Sometimes where a person would say, well, I'm a traditional doctor, I want to have some strengthening drugs, then they go and kill somebody, but those that involved chiefs who were in fact aspiring to be great in politics, none of them are there now.  In any case, at present chiefs here, although they've got a right to play a role, they are not acting in politics.

MR VAN RENSBURG: The point is, shouldn't the cut off point be 1990 and not be 1994 as you testified, because in 1990 Mr Nelson Mandela was released?

UNKNOWN: I am just trying to show that well, as from the time when people could talk freely, we never had many cases.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, and I suggest to you that that time period should be 1990, not 1994, as you testified.

UNKNOWN: That does not substantially change what I'm saying.  The point is that after those Judges worked here, we had very, very little ritual murder cases.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson.  Honourable Chairperson, Ms Patel here.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, how can I forget you?

MS PATEL: Just one or two aspects Professor.  Just for clarity for our understanding, once a person is pointed out perhaps as a witch or a wizard, can you explain to us what processes would be put in place in the community,.  Would the youth have a youth meeting, how would people be gathered, what kind of information, if any, would be given to the group of people that would go along?

UNKNOWN: Traditionally the youth played no role at all in cases concerning witchcraft.  It is only from the date around 1988 when for the first time we saw young boys taking law into their own hands on witchcraft cases.

MS PATEL: If we're dealing with the period from 1988 onwards, let's assume that A accused B of being a witch or a wizard.  What practically would then happen within the community?  Do you understand what I am trying to say?

UNKNOWN: I do.  If A say in 1989 would say is a witch, now remember that already at that time chiefs had been turning people around here, "if ever you do have witchcraft cases, don't come to us because we are not allowed to try such cases in our tribal court," so they won't even go to them.  They would say  "well, if you are not happy go to Sibasa Magistrates Court."  If you go there, then the Anti Witchcraft Act would be applied, but tribal courts wash it of their hands.

MS PATEL: I'm not asking you what would happen in terms of the existing perhaps legal structures or tribal structures that were in place, in terms of how the youth would have been perhaps manipulated and operated during that period from 88 onwards.  Let's assume there was an allegation that somebody was a witch or a wizard, youth would mobilise not so?

UNKNOWN: If A in this particular area was suspected of being a witch it wouldn't help to say you know the thing was reported last week or so.  This particular family might alone been identified with witchcraft but this time the climate was right to deal with such things.  Then a member of this particular family may tell some ...(indistinct) boys, heh look, why do you spare her.  She has killed so many people.  Then the youth will assemble at a certain place, attacking the so-called witches, but otherwise in the past, witchcraft was too adult for kids.

MS PATEL: Let's assume that the youth had then in terms of your scenario to us, the youth had then assembled.  A decision is taken to deal with the witch or the wizard.  Would, in terms of your experience, would all parties who participated as part of that group, would they generally have participated voluntarily or would there sometimes be an element of duress that would come to be on certain people who would form part of this group?

UNKNOWN: Well I'll be very honest with you.  We didn't sort of find out if in every case everybody who was you know was forced but rather if perhaps 10 or 20 boys are going to a site and they meet you on the way, and you're a boy, they just say "join us" and because at that time the thinking in the area was that witches must be cleaned out, so this young boy may not even sing, may not even think, it's just a question of enjoying his friends and is enjoying singing.  It's only on the following day when hearts are down, when police are moving around now, rounding them up then the aunt must say 'Hey, I must hide you in Jo'burg"  Why?  "The police are looking for those boys who were singing here last night."
Otherwise quite a good number of boys enjoyed just joining these people singing and dancing.

MS PATEL: Are you saying then to us that it is possible that you would get certain boys who would join a particular group on their way to deal with a witch, where in fact the witch or the wizard was dealt with and that particular boy or child would not necessarily know exactly what was going on, he would merely, that's just the way things happened, that youth would just come along and join if there was group?

UNKNOWN: What I'm saying is this, this boy sees friends.  These are local people, they are dancing, they are singing, he joins them.  These boys don't say "we are going to kill Mrs A"  they just say "we are going to deal with the mother of B".  They are not saying we are going to kill her or him.   So when they are there, they start throwing stones, some boys will now perhaps light the first hut, but otherwise it's not a question of sitting down, that now you must stand at the corner there, I will stand there, no it was emotionally done.

CHAIRPERSON: Professor, the question is simple.  While there may not be a plan or meeting to decide how certain things are going to go, the burning of people or the throwing stones at people must necessarily, no matter what the age of the little child is, result in him having the idea that someone is going to die, not so?

UNKNOWN: Could you please repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: Burning somebody or throwing big stones at somebody, must necessarily be associated with the idea or the possibility that such a person may die, no matter how young or old that child is.

UNKNOWN: I agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that was the crux of the question.

MS PATEL: Just finally, then given that scenario, is it fair to say that those youths who embarked on those actions, were aware of the consequences of their actions?  They are participating in singing and dancing, on their way to where a witch might be dealt with, that the consequences exist that they were aware of that this person would be killed, or harmed, or their property damaged?

UNKNOWN: I've got a very big problem here.  We did not interview the youth.  They had either fled the country or they were in jail.  We interviewed people outside.  Why do you think the kids did that and that and that?  So I can't answer the question.  We did not interview those boys, we interviewed their own parents, their own brothers and so on.

MS PATEL: Okay, that you Professor.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR NDOU: No, no re-examination.