Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I cannot speak for him, he did not discuss it with us Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Now what is the Boere Crisis Action, what is that organisation?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not have a lot of knowledge about the Boere Crisis Action, but as far as I know it was a unit that fell under Constand Viljoen which was concerned with the Boere and he had something to do with that.

MR LANDMAN: Do you know whether Cliffie Barnard, Koper Myburgh, Etienne Le Roux and Jan De Wet were members of that Boere Action?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Are you asking me if I knew if they were part of it?  No I do not know if they were part of it or not.

MR LANDMAN: You see I want to refer you to the bundle which is entitled Volume 2 with the indictment in.  On page 95 of that bundle, you will find that 94 is marked and then 96, it's the one in-between.  Mr Fourie I would like you just to start at page 94 if you would just turn back one page.  Just turn back the page.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: 94.

MR LANDMAN: Yes and if you look at the bottom Mr Fourie I'm going to read it out to you:  Concerning Bree Street he approved the bombing in Johannesburg - that is now yourself - but it is not clear if it was the same bomb and secondly if it was an approval which occurred with hindsight regarding this misconduct could have been done by the Boere Crisis Action of which accused numbers 1 to 4 were members of.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Who described it?

MR LANDMAN: This is the judge in the trial court, Judge Flemming.  Do you agree with that or no?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It could be Mr Chairperson but I have got no proof to substantiate it.  They never told me that they were members of the Boere Crisis Action.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie do you in your amnesty application, do you admit that you were involved in committing the offence of murder in connection with the Bree Street bombing?  Do you admit that you killed the people who were involved in that bombing?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I did not have a say Mr Chairperson, I didn't have any say in that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: The interpretation was whether he admits that he was involved with the people and not that he admits that he killed the people so it came across incorrectly.  Could you please repeat the question.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie let me put to you what my dilemma is.  If I understand you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Has the previous question been repeated or the answer?  Are you satisfied?  Mr Landman could you repeat your previous question please?

MR LANDMAN: Chairman I'm going to try and see if I can recall the form of the question.  Mr Fourie do you say to this Committee that you were, are you saying to this Committee that you agree that you killed the people who were involved in the Bree Street bombing?

MR PRIOR: In other words killed the people who were blown up in this bomb?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Do they want to know if I was indirectly involved with the planning of it?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, do you accept that you are responsible for the death of these people?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, because I was part of them I must accept it.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Fourie did you know that that bomb was going to be planted in Johannesburg that Sunday?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson I did not know that.

MR LANDMAN: Did you know that any bombs were going to be planted on the Sunday?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: Did you do anything to participate in planning that bomb?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: So you played no role whatsoever in connection with that bombing?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson when those bombs were planned, that is what I think you are wanting to know, I had nothing to do with that, I was at the game farm, I did not know what was going on at Koesterfontein.  Only later did I hear what happened.

MR LANDMAN: When did you first find out that it was one of your fellow applicants who was involved in this bombing?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson if I can remember correctly, one evening some of our people arrived at the game farm, amongst others, Jan De Wet.  I do not know or he talked about the bomb but it was so long ago and so many things that I have to give attention and he talked about a bomb, but I cannot with certainty say if it was the Bree Street bombing that he talked about.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not give evidence earlier on that you heard about the bombing on the TV?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No but I did not understand that they were talking about that.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know which bomb they were talking about?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No one told me about any bomb.

MR LANDMAN: When did you first find out that one of the applicants, in particular Mr Le Roux, was involved in that bombing, when were you first informed of that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: On the game farm just before we left, I think it was the following day, I cannot remember Mr Chairperson. I'm thinking now if it was Cliffie or someone who the following day after the pipe bomb mission arrived at the game farm who talked about the bombs, I cannot remember, at this stage I cannot remember no.

MR LANDMAN: You see Mr Fourie what I have difficulty in understanding is why are you asking for amnesty in respect of an incident which you were not involved in at all?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, I marched up with the rest of the people, I was not a big leader but I was in a leadership position and when these things happened, I reconciled myself with what happened.  I cannot leave my men behind and claim no responsibility, I must claim some responsibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, to be fair to you, the advocate is not talking about your loyalty, he's talking about the fact that you had an influence in this crime.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Well I did not contribute anything to that crime, but I was convicted for it.

MR LANDMAN: Could we possibly, just to clarify that, possibly look at Volume 2 again which contains a summary inter alia of convictions and sentences.  And if we turn to page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Landman haven't you made your point?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman in fact what I would like to do is just to address the Committee very briefly about this matter.  I'm not even sure whether there's any need to continue at all in respect of the Bree Street bombing.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we all understand the point you made.

MR LANDMAN: Yes, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Fourie when you made your application for amnesty is it correct that Annexure A is more or less the evidence that was given by Mr Koekemoer at the trial?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson Annexure A, is that what you are talking about?

MS CAMBANIS: Sir your application for amnesty, the sequence of events and the facts stated in your application, does that not more or less correlate with what Mr Koekemoer's evidence was at your trial?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: What is this, is this on the first page?  I do not know what you are talking about.

MS CAMBANIS: The facts that - who were the applicants that were involved in the bombing incidents and what the motives for those bombs were?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We who were involved in this whole set-up, is that what you're talking about and then the motive of the whole set-up.  What about that?

MS CAMBANIS: Was Mr Koekemoer's evidence regarding the motive for this correct.  Do you agree with that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That we must disrupt the elections, is that what you would like to know?