Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Is the statement given to us today through your lawyer correct in all its details?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Okay.  In this statement on page 2 you say you went to Mrs Mandela's house in Orlando, is that right?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I may not say it is Orlando, but I know.

MR SEMENYA: (Indistinct)

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And you show it in Orlando right?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I am not sure if it is Orlando, I was not quite familiar with the area.  I did not know.

MR SEMENYA: You don't know where Orlando is and you don't know where Diepkloof is?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We went to the house that we were taken by Botha to.  As to which location it was or section, I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know where Diepkloof is?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I don't know how to separate the locations or the townships.  I arrived in 1984 or 1983 in Soweto.

MR SEMENYA: Don't you know where Diepkloof is and where Orlando is?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I used to work in Baragwanath garage and I never used to travel a lot around the township.

MR SEMENYA: Don't you know the difference between the two?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I don't know the difference between the two locations or sections.

MR SEMENYA: You see the interesting thing is the Orlando house was already under construction.  Mrs Mandela was not staying at that house at that time at all.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I may not refute that, but I went to her house.

MR SEMENYA: ... that it was in Orlando in your statement which you say is correct, I am saying she was not at that house.  The whole world knows about that at least.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is why I keep insisting that I cannot separate the sections in Soweto, especially the two sections.

MR SEMENYA: In your statement which you made on the 30th of July 1995, even at that stage you say he then said he will take us to this woman.  We then went with Botha by taxi to Orlando and was taken to the house of Winnie Mandela.  You repeatedly  say you have been to this house and it was in Orlando, even in that statement.  Do you deny that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I had just explained that I don't know how to separate Orlando and Diepkloof.  I don't know the difference, I cannot separate the two sections.

MR SEMENYA: Okay, your friend or your cousin rather, Mbatha, told the rest of the world through BBC and SABC in this country, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela gave him the firearm in the hand.  Was he honest on that one?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.  That was the first gun I got from Botha, the one that I am talking about, the one that was not functioning well when I was trying to trigger.
 I am answering the question.

MR SEMENYA: Your friend tells us that he got the firearm from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's hand and at that moment he breaks down in tears.  Was he honest when he was saying that to the rest of the world?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: So even you saw Mrs Madikizela-Mandela give a firearm in the hand of your cousin brother Mbatha?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: When we went back the second time with Botha in a car, I did not get inside.  I did not get inside the house.  I did not get inside, I was in the car, I remained in the car.  They both got inside.

MR SEMENYA: Then now, and maybe for the last time, did you see Mrs Mandela give your cousin brother Mbatha a firearm in his hand?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: He got back with a gun already.  The first gun that I got was the one that I got from Botha, but the second one I did not see because I was in the car.

MR SEMENYA: Just please, did you with your own eyes see Mrs Mandela give a firearm to Mbatha?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I am just explaining that matter, that I did not get inside.  I remained in the car whilst they both went inside.  I did not see that, I was in the car.

MR SEMENYA: So you didn't see that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I did not see that.

MR SEMENYA: Are you now saying that Mbatha also went inside the house with Botha?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: They went inside and I remained in the car.

MR SEMENYA: You deny that you had earlier said that it was only Botha who went inside the house?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.  Please repeat your question.

MR SEMENYA: Did you say it was only Botha who went inside the house?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: The second time Botha got inside after Dr Asvat was killed, he went inside the house alone.  That was after the incident.

MR SEMENYA: Let me take you through the statements as you have made them.

MR VALLY: I am sorry to interrupt my learned friend.  I am afraid there is a further statement which the witness made on the same day he was arrested.  So in addition to the statements I have referred to, there is another.  We are just giving a copy to Mr Semenya right now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya do you need a few minutes to look at that, or do you have enough statements?

MR SEMENYA: I am sure I have enough statements for now, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed then.

MR SEMENYA: Do you remember being in a helicopter going to the Westville prison in Natal?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We were not going to Natal.  I was in Westville prison.

MR SEMENYA: Do you remember that occasion when you were taken to Westville prison?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was not taken to Westville prison, I was moved from Westville prison to Pretoria with Moodley and Hesslinga.

MR SEMENYA: It is recorded here prisoner number 3585, that is yourself, right?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Thulani Nicholas Dlamini was removed from Central prison to Westville prison Natal?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, something is not right there.  I was in Westville prison in 1993.  I was never removed from Central prison to Durban.

MR SEMENYA: ... the prisoner indicated that he is willing to make a further statement concerning the death of Dr Asvat?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I had already submitted my statement, that was not showed to the police in Brixton, there was not another statement.  I was with Moodley, Moodley fetched me from Natal and took me to Pretoria in the Central prison.

MR SEMENYA: That he was taken to the surgery by Mbatha who was instructed by Jerry to go and kill the Doctor Asvat?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I refute all of that.

MR SEMENYA: ... but was taken there by Jerry a few hours and shown the place?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, Jerry never went with me to that place.

MR SEMENYA: Jerry was not present when the Doctor was killed?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, Jerry was not present.

MR SEMENYA: According to him the reason for his death was that he knew too much about the death of Stompie?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I may not be able to explain many things as far as that is concerned, but the only thing that motivated me was money.

MR SEMENYA: He informed me that Jerry was also involved with one other murder that he knows about and he is willing to make a statement about this?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: So you don't know the other murder which Jerry is involved in?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.  I don't know.  I did say that I only met Jerry in prison when we were going to the hospital after we had been tortured by the Protea police.  I only met him in prison.

MR SEMENYA: In the statement you gave to the TRC, under paragraph 18, you say that the discussions that you had with Mrs Mandela about the R20 000-00 was in December of 1988?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: As I said that that is the reason why I am here.  I don't know the dates, I don't know any dates.  It is been quite some time that I have been arrested, so I wouldn't be in a position to remember everything.

MR SEMENYA: But do you confirm that you killed for R20 000-00?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.