Special Hearings — Media Hearings — UNKNOWN

VIC MCPHERSON: It involved firstly, okay, the two policemen's salaries which was basically you know, basic salaries.  They had to have police vehicles, police cars under their own names, and the petrol.  Then when it came to other projects, we had offices that had to be paid, monthly payments, renting.  In certain projects, okay, specifically, you are referring specifically to the media.	Yes, okay, then certain people had to fly, you know certain journalists had to fly to certain instructions that we gave them to attend say a specific conference.  It could have been in another country.  So that involved money and then also the salaries of payment made to the say four journalists that were on the pay roll.  And then other money was spent on say lunches and paying journalists for taking certain peoples that had to be interviewed for lunches and say travelling expenses, hotel expenses and so forth.	So basically looking at this operation and referring it or having to refer it to other operations, it was actually quite cheap.

MR LEWIN: Yes.  Can I just ask, I want just to confirm the fact that, you say these projects were presented at the highest level?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes.

MR LEWIN: They were presented basically to the Cabinet?

VIC MCPHERSON: It was just members of the Security, on the Security side.

MR LEWIN: Chaired by Mr De Klerk?

VIC MCPHERSON: State Security Committee, there was a State Security Committee in the Cabinet.

MR LEWIN: And this was chaired by Mr De Klerk?

VIC MCPHERSON: By Mr De Klerk.

MR LEWIN: So you would say that Mr De Klerk both knew about the projects and approved them?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes, he approved the, this fell under the counter-revolutionary project and he approved it in principle.  Of course he wouldn't know which journalists are working for us, or the detail.	We should have submitted the different objectives and strategies.  So you just presented the objectives and the strategy to him and he would have asked us but what was the aim, and you had to say it was you know, to help build the image of the Police, counter propaganda from the opposition and it had to, the main aim had to be for peace.	Especially in the last years whilst the negotiations was continuing, the main aim had to be to propagate peace for the country.

MR LEWIN: What would the position have been for instance at the time of the Gaberone raid?

VIC MCPHERSON: That was before.  That was in 1985.  That was a bit earlier.  Then the government regarded it as war and P.W. Botha was then the State President, but the same had to happen in front of him.	Every year all secret projects had to be presented to him, by the different roll players which were basically the South African Defence Force, South African Police, National Intelligence Service and Foreign Affairs.

MR LEWIN: So he would have known the details of the whole operation?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes, in fact, you mean the Gaberone raid?

MR LEWIN: Yes.

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes, in fact I flew down to Cape Town, to Minister Magnus Malan and I had to present a plan to him with regards to the coming Gaberone raid.

MR LEWIN: A media plan?

VIC MCPHERSON: No, not at that stage, I was still doing Intelligence work.

MR LEWIN: So the cutting at the back there, the Guns of Gaberone?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes.

MR LEWIN: That would have been part of the whole strategy?

VIC MCPHERSON: No, not the report in itself, but the aim was to get that kind of result through what you presented to the media.  Well you had it ready and so they could just take and grab the press report, the photographs, everything was ready.  It was easy for them to write the report, everything was at their disposal.	They didn't have to do much thinking, or interviewing and so forth.

MR LEWIN: But everybody involved, up to the State President, knew beforehand what was going to happen?

VIC MCPHERSON: That is right, yes.  Yes, because people like Minister Pik Botha, he had to see to the aspect of foreign intervention and what the reaction of the Gaberone government was going to be, once this has happened.

MR LEWIN: So you knew beforehand, or everyone knew beforehand that people were going to be killed?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes.

MR LEWIN: What was the position with the projects after February 1990?

VIC MCPHERSON: After February 1990 another representation had to be made to President F.W. de Klerk and they have cut it more than half.  Because at that stage, many of the people that were working for us, were becoming scared and we had discovered that some of them, had already been to the African National Congress and confessed to what work they had been doing for us.	And we had to give assurance to the State President, that the projects we were still running, that people in our employment could also not run over and become an embarrassment to the government.	So only those projects that propagated peace and that were, that could not have become an embarrassment, only those projects, were approved.

MR LEWIN: Did that include media projects?

VIC MCPHERSON: The media, yes.

MR LEWIN: It still included that?

VIC MCPHERSON: It still continued, yes.

MR LEWIN: How did the business of recruiting new people, to be sent into the newspapers as recruits, you mentioned at some stage that these people were also paid and that you had a budget for putting them through university.  Could you tell us about that?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes, but that was not necessarily to do with the media.  It was more a student body action.  A National Student Federation, and it had nothing to do with, it had to do with the Student Organisations, nothing to do with media in itself.

MR LEWIN: So those people weren't necessarily going to become journalists?

VIC MCPHERSON: No.  Yes, well you know, some of them that studied at Rhodes University that did journalism, we once had one of them, that got into the media, but we didn't train or had people specifically trained for the media.	We concentrated more on people that were already positioned in the media.

MR LEWIN: And Mr Horak has told us that he was one of two agents, paid agents.  You give the impression from your list of 40 journalistic contacts that there were probably a great deal more than the two that he knew of.

VIC MCPHERSON: No, there were just two that I knew of, yes.

MR LEWIN: And did that include Mr Horak?

VIC MCPHERSON: That is including Mr Horak, and you might get a surprise, the other man might pitch up this afternoon.

MR LEWIN: Will you introduce us?  Could I ask some questions, because yesterday we dealt at great length about the SABC.	I get the impression from your description of the ANC office and the operation that you carried out there, you are talking now about a propaganda operation of the SABC making a documentary.

VIC MCPHERSON: Well, it is rather us wanting a propaganda documentary, but the SABC was prepared because they needed the publicity and it was a good story at that time and they knew people would watch it.  So it was also of importance to them to do the documentary.

MR LEWIN: Who originated that story?

VIC MCPHERSON: Cliff Saunders.

MR LEWIN: And did he originate it and come to you or did you go to him and he originated?

VIC MCPHERSON: I think you will have to ask, it's a pity Craig went, because I knew Craig supplied most of the information so he would be in a position to tell you where it originated from.

MR LEWIN: So the SABC photographers took the photographs in London?

VIC MCPHERSON: No, we supplied them with the photographs of the different people visiting even people, you know, entering the offices, coming out of the offices.

MR LEWIN: How did you get these photographs?

VIC MCPHERSON: We had a surveillance team.

MR LEWIN: South African?

VIC MCPHERSON: Yes.

MR LEWIN: And were those same photographs used for the blowing up of the ANC Headquarters later?

VIC MCPHERSON: No, we didn't need them.

MR LEWIN: Could you explain that please?