Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

BRIG CRONJE: At that stage the South African government wanted to grant independence to all black states at all cost.  They wanted Kwandebele to accept independence but Kwandebele could not obtain independence while these unrests continued and also the Kwandebele government at the time wanted to accept this independence although a large majority of the population here in Kwandebele were opposed to the idea of the independence of Kwandebele.  Mbokoto's leader, Ntuli, was initially for the idea of independence or they pretended that they were for the government and for the idea of independence but in the year 1984/85/86 there was a large scale of violence and unrest where people were necklaced here in Kwandebele.  I know earlier in 1986 Piet Ntuli and
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his Mbokoto were responsible for the arson on 50 to 60 houses were several people, and I speak under correction, I think about 30 people were killed and I know inter alia about a Mrs Mgede whose two children were burnt to death there.  Piet Ntuli, according to eye-witness accounts, threw the children back into these burning houses.  So at that stage Piet Ntuli assured the destabilisation of this area.  To us as security police it appeared as though Piet Ntuli was using Mbokoto to destabilise this whole region instead of stabilising the reason, as was originally intended.  Consequently they had the same vision, the same destabilising tactics as the UDF and the ANC, who also had a strong presence in this area.  At that stage it was clear that Piet was working against the South African government by these destabilising tactics.  Since it would have been such an embarrassment to the government since Piet Ntuli was their man so to speak, the instruction was then forwarded to us that we should eliminate him.  The assumption which we made at this stage was that as long as Piet Ntuli was there no independence from the Republic of South Africa would be obtained, the government didn't want that, and the elimination of Piet Ntuli would then be to promote their aims.  After the incident there were reports in several newspapers by mainly our South African newspapers and also Shashaba, which was the ANC newspaper, where the ANC said that they were responsible for Piet Ntuli's elimination and those documents had already been submitted while we were giving evidence before the amnesty committee in Johannesburg where it was clear in the Shashaba that the ANC claimed to have eliminated Ntuli.  At that stage it was a political advantage to them in the eyes of the people of Kwandebele
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and it suited us as well because it portrayed us as being innocent.  It would have been difficult for anyone who was investigating the matter to look at us as the perpetrators because then it was clear that the ANC was responsible.

MR MALAN: Is there anything else that you would like to add?

BRIG CRONJE: Chairperson I would like to mention that the two persons James Mahlangu and Cornelius tried their best on the other side to bring about peace in the area.  They did everything in their power to get the children back to school and then Piet tried to get them out of school.  So these two persons tried their best to bring about stability in the region.  Thank you.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.  We would like to put a few questions to you.  At least I would like to ask a few questions for the sake of clarity and then I will hand back to the chairperson who will give my colleagues the opportunity to ask a few questions.  I would like to make it very clear that the aim is not to cross-examine the subject matter of this so we are not going to go into detail on that but it is important for the bigger picture to get information on for example the instructive lines here.  Exactly what was the position, what reports were there from the region to you, where was information coordinated and to whom were reports submitted from you.  Who did you report to?  That is the first question.  The second question to go with that is that would you like to give us a bit more information on the functions of the uniform branch and then let's also say the security branch in the area, possibly the relationship between the two as well.

BRIG CRONJE: The commanding line firstly, Kwandebele had
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its own commissioner, Brig Van Niekerk, with his own uniform and investigative members here.  As far as security was concerned I was overseer of Pretoria in the region of the Northern Transvaal.  The unit in the Northern Transvaal included this region.  There was also a security branch here in Siyabuswa and one in Bronkhorstspruit who were to serve this area jointly.  So all the security information was obtained by these two units and forwarded to me and I in turn submitted it to the central control centre and then of course to my head office and then Brig Van Niekerk, who was the commissioner here, was also informed of circumstances.

MR MALAN: Who informed him?

BRIG CRONJE: He obtained his information from head office.  I also liaised with him personally.

MR MALAN: Was it the same process followed after Commissioner Lerm took over here?

BRIG CRONJE: ... as I said in my evidence that when we tried to chop off the head Mbokoto was useless as such but Lerm of course came here and made all of Mbokoto special constables so they could proceed with their activities legally under the flag of the police.  So the area suffered the same under Mbokoto, under the command of Lerm.

MR MALAN: You say he made them special constables.  Was it his choice, do you have first hand information?

BRIG CRONJE: It was his choice and as far as I know his recommendation to head office.  He also reported to head office police headquarters in Pretoria.

MR MALAN: Did he report to another channel?

BRIG CRONJE: Are we talking about Lerm?  No, he did not report to me.  The situation deteriorated so much so between myself and Lerm, Lerm did not want to co-operate with us.
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Lerm went so far as that sometimes he would take my members from Bronkhorstspruit and detain them here because they came onto his territory without permission so the relations between Lerm and myself and his staff and my staff deteriorated.

MR MALAN: So are you saying that Lerm did not accept the role in principle which he saw as uniform branch's responsibility?

BRIG CRONJE: At that stage Lerm was also but, if I could use the word, a stooge.  He was sent here under the pretence that he was coming to stabilise the region which he could never do and which he never did get right.

MR MALAN: You are confusing me because you say he was a stooge because he was sent here to stabilise the region but you say that was your aim as well.

BRIG CRONJE: If I could just express it otherwise.  He was sent here to come and stabilise the region but I think he also got out of hand and at a later stage started working for his own benefit.

MR MALAN: Are you saying he was working for his own benefit?

BRIG CRONJE: For example he would order Mercedes Benz and was driving subsidised vehicles and I don't think that was done in Pretoria.  According to me he became a second Piet Ntuli but for different reasons. As I say I think he was working for his own gain.

MR MALAN: You say what he kept himself occupied with destabilised more than stabilised.  Do you want to make any specific mention of his activities or don't you want to do that now?

BRIG CRONJE: No, I would rather not say anything now.
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