Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR NOFOMELA: It was not the intention to trick him not to get the money.  Initially we tried to get the money but we saw that he was hesitant and realised that he did not have the money and we saw that he wasn't playing the game and then we looked at the car he was travelling in and found that it was valuable and if we could get the car from him and sell the car we would get the equivalent of the money we had given them.  That is why we decided to tell him that we
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MS KHAMPEPE	187	MR A NOFOMELA
should rather go back to South Africa and discuss this because we are not from here and that is when we decided to go to Ladybrand and when we got there we left with him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you ask for your refund of your money from the diamond dealer whilst you were in Lesotho?

MR NOFOMELA: We did speak about the fact that the diamonds weren't with the money that we had paid him and he hesitated and he gave us stories telling us to wait and telling us about other people whom we didn't know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you are not responding to my question.  Had you asked for the refund of your money whilst you were there in Lesotho?  Did you demand a refund from the diamond dealer?

MR NOFOMELA: We told him that we want to give these fake stones back and we want our money back and this is when he started telling us about other people.  I do not remember whose names he mentioned, saying that we should wait for them and he gave us a lot of stories that we could see weren't very clear.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Nofomela, for enlightening us on that issue.

UNKNOWN: Mr Nofomela, continuing with that.  You said you saw the car was valuable and could be sold and through selling the car you could get back your money.  When did that occur to you, this plan of taking the car and selling the car?

MR NOFOMELA: Joe and I discussed that amongst ourselves that the way this guy's talking now we are not going to get anything out of him and Joe and I were discussing the car saying that the car seems valuable and we agreed we were going to cheat him into coming to Ladybrand with us.
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ADV DE JAGER	188	MR A NOFOMELA

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible)

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And you travelled with this car to Vlakplaas.

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And did you tell Mr Dirk Coetzee about this plan of selling the car to get back the money?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And did he agree with that?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, he did.

UNKNOWN: And do you know in fact whether the car ...

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to look at page 21, please where you set out how you participated in this mission in Swaziland.  My only question to you is, were you armed as well?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you use your weapon?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the extent of your participation?

MR NOFOMELA: Myself and Jonas Mbelo(?) were standing guarding, covering those who had gone inside.  We were standing outside near the door.  We stood near the door when they went in.  I made a mistake where I said that we went in.   We did not go in.  Mbelo and I remained outside.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked whether you used the weapon and you said yes.  Did you use it?

MR NOFOMELA: I did not use the firearm that I had.

CHAIRPERSON: So was it a mistake just now when you said you did use it?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, it was.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How did you manage to make that kind of
21.1 - 4B	mistake/...
JUDGE NGOEPE	189	MR A NOFOMELA
mistake?

MR NOFOMELA: Because we did not go into the house.  The mistake that I made was saying that we went into the house saying that they kicked the door and we went in.  We in actual fact stood outside guarding those that had gone into the house.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you aware at all times that you never entered the house, that you stood outside, but when my brother asked you, you said that you did use your firearm.  If you had been standing outside the house all the time, how do you manage to make a mistake that you used your firearm in the house?

JUDGE WILSON: Can I correct that?  It is not what you said.  You were asked whether you were armed and you said I used my weapon.  Was your weapon a firearm?

MR NOFOMELA: I did not use my firearm at all.

JUDGE WILSON: That was the weapon you had.  It was a firearm.

MR NOFOMELA: I was armed with a 9mm firearm.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I go back to my question.  I want to understand the basis of your mistake.  If you were at all times that you were standing outside the house and you never went in, how do you manage to make the mistake that you used your firearm in the house, if you were never in the house?

MR NOFOMELA: I am trying to correct the error where I included in my statement that I went in, when in actual fact I did not enter the house, I did not shoot, and that is how I remember that I did not use my firearm because I did not go into the house.  And due to the fact that I did not enter the house I did not use my firearm.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: There aren't many incidents before us in
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JUDGE NGOEPE	190	MR A NOFOMELA
which you personally shot anybody?

MR NOFOMELA: There are.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In most instances either you were there outside or you took people there.  Which incident is it where you actually shot anybody?

MR NOFOMELA: As I said Sir, where I was with Major De Kock and the group from Ermelo and Colonel Cronje, where we went to shoot people in Swaziland in 1983.  I practically emptied the whole magazine on a wrong person, someone that accompanied me.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us where did you stand when you didn't enter the house, where were you when your compatriots went into the room?

MR NOFOMELA: They entered by kicking down the door and we were instructed that we should stand next to the house, myself and Johannes Mbele, near the door, one on either side.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And this happened at night.

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain to me how it is that you said inside we found three inhabitants sleeping?  How did you find three inhabitants sleeping when you were outside?

MR NOFOMELA: That is what Van Dyk related to me when he came out.

CHAIRPERSON: But this doesn't say that.  This says that "we entered the house" and you say "inside we found three inhabitants sleeping".  Now you can understand ordinary common English and you know what that means.  ... three inhabitants sleeping if you were outside and Van Dyk
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CHAIRMAN	191	MR A NOFOMELA
would come and tell you there were three inhabitants sleeping.  One gets the feeling that you are not being frank with this Committee, that you are withholding information or misleading us.

MR NOFOMELA: Sir, it could appear so because I made the mistake in making the statement to my attorney because I notice now that in this incident, this incident in which I was involved, did not take place as in this statement and that is why I thought I would rectify that mistake now because it did not take place as I said in the statement.

UNKNOWN: You emptied your gun shooting at your colleague, that was Geoff standing outside with you guarding outside in another incident, is that correct?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How far from you was he standing when you started firing on him?

MR NOFOMELA: He was quite a distance from me and it was dark and I could not see that it was him and I just fired and I struck him in his foot and he says that he survived by lying flat and shouting to me that it was him.

UNKNOWN: Apart from that incident you were asked when did you actually fire shots at people on any of the operations.  Could you tell us where did you actually participate in shooting and did you ever kill anybody?