Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And was that the only event where you really saw that the person was shot 
before your eyes?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Sir.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Okay.  Now against that background, Captain Mentz, would you possibly from 
these facts be able to give an explanation to the Committee as to why you reacted in such an emotional 
manner to the death of Brian Ngqulunga?
	Captain, okay let me restate the question.  Would the fact that you were so closely involved in the 
death of Brian Ngqulunga not perhaps have caused you to be more emotional with regard to that event than 
in the case of others where you were involved?

CAPT MENTZ: That is possible Mr Chairman, but as I've already stated psychiatrists etc can be called in.   
I can't explain why I feel like this or like that from time to time, we don't feel the same every morning we 
get up.  	These are terrible things that happened and it affects one in different manners.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr du Plessis really, why are you putting this man through such a lot of trouble, I 
mean what is the weighty point that you are making here?  I mean you kill somebody, somebody is killed 
in front of you in a very barbarous way,  I mean it must just trouble him.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, clearly Mr Chairman, but certain questions were asked to the witness, the 
reasons whereof I 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 129

CAPT MENTZ: am not hundred percent sure, but what I would want to address the Committee on during argument, and 
that is why I am asking this question is the fact that Captain Mentz, and it all simply go to probabilities, that 
Captain Mentz did not react differently in the case of Brian Ngqulunga because of the possible fact that he 
knew he was killing in innocent man, not for political motives, but simply to exterminate him as a witness.
	It all goes towards probabilities.  Mr Chairman, I see it is past one o'clock already, I have a few 
other questions.

HASSAN MALL: Shouldn't we finish it if you have those?

ADV DU PLESSIS: If you will allow me?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, I think we should get done with it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Mentz, I just wish to clarify one matter.  It was asked when you were 
contacted by Captain Hechter, whether you hadn't been involved in Vlakplaas, can you explain to the 
Committee briefly the stage when you were contacted in the case of the KwaNdebele Nine for example by 
Captain Hechter, was Colonel De Kock at that stage still there, in 1988 and was Captain Hechter involved 
at that stage?

CAPT MENTZ: No Sir, both cases, no.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Very well Captain Mentz, was there any
incident where an instruction such as this, where you just assumed it was a normal instruction like this 
would you have questioned it in the past?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Are you aware of instances where policemen, especially at the time, questioned 
these type of instructions?

CAPT MENTZ: No, not as far as I know, not at Vlakplaas.  PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 130

CAPT MENTZ: It was never done.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What would have happened to you if you were to started questioning 
instructions or questioning people senior to Eugene de Kock?

CAPT MENTZ: We all know about Eugene de Kock, I would have been seen as a traitor at that stage and 
anything could have happened.  I would definitely have been transferred to a place not of my choice.

ADV DU PLESSIS: If you had questioned such an instruction in the South African police context 
and in the Security Police context, would they have taken steps against you?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Very well Captain Mentz, I will present this evidence through one of the other 
witnesses, but I am going to put it to you would you be able to dispute it if I put to you that an AK47 can 
fire approximately 75 rounds per minute?

CAPT MENTZ: I cannot dispute that.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, Sir, may I be allowed just to put one question which I omitted, to the 
witness?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, please do.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Captain, you testified that as you were manhandling the 
deceased
somebody stuffed something into his mouth, do you remember that?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that is possible.  Yes, I know that his mouth was also closed at some stage.

UNKNOWN: Was the mouth stuck closed with something or was it stuffed with something, there is a 
difference between the two please.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 131

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, I have already answered, I did not do anything to his mouth.  I saw that it 
had been closed with something, I do not know if anything was stuffed into his mouth, I know that his 
mouth had been closed with something, something had been placed over his mouth.  I had more to do with 
his arms, bringing his arms under control.

UNKNOWN: With what was the mouth taped closed?

CAPT MENTZ: With sellotape, coloured sellotape, I cannot remember what colour the sellotape was, but 
it was this very strong type of sellotape.

UNKNOWN: Is it possible that before his mouth had been taped closed that something had been 
stuffed into his mouth?

CAPT MENTZ: It is possible Mr Chairman, but I did not do that, I do not know.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, you are excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED.

HASSAN MALL: We will take an adjournment at this stage.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS: PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 132

HASSAN MALL: Are we ready to proceed?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman the next of kin to the deceased, Brian 
Ngqulunga are present.  I have
consulted with them Mr Chairman, in particular the wife.  Mr Chairman she wants to give evidence, to take 
the witness stand, Mr Chairman if the Committee permits, I will call her to the witness stand.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, please do.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, what are her full names?

MS NGQULUNGA: Tholakele Catherine.

THOLAKELE CATHERINE NGQULUNGA: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I just want to mention to the Committee that part of the evidence that she 
is going to give Mr Chairman is going to relate to what was said before lunch and that I did not have the 
privilege of having knowledge thereof up till during lunch time, Mr Chairman and we decided with herself 
that she must testify on all those other things that she wants to dispute Mr Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mrs Ngqulunga, you are the wife to Brian Ngqulunga?

MS NGQULUNGA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: If you could just speak up please.  You were here present today when evidence was 
given about your deceased husband and you understood everything?

MS NGQULUNGA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: During lunch you indicated to me that there are certain aspects or parts of evidence 
given so far that you would like to dispute and you want to do that yourself under oath, is that correct?
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 133

MS NGQULUNGA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you then tell the Committee what you want the Committee to know, starting first 
with the issue of the
 funeral?

MS NGQULUNGA: When we went to the funeral, it was a Saturday afternoon, when we were 
approaching the graveside, we met the comrades, the comrade group and the group said we won't bury the 
corpse there and suddenly there were attacks and they started shooting and we took one of the injured ones 
to the mortuary.
	On Monday Captain Van Dyk came. ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Where did this fighting take place?  The first incident you mentioned?

MS NGQULUNGA: It took place just when we were taking - gaining entrance to the graveside 
...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Which graveyard.

MS NGQULUNGA: Soshanguve graveyard.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Continue.