Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-08

MR VAN DER MERWE: Excuse me, Mr Commissioner. I seem to be jumping around between English and Afrikaans.  I'm getting confused, but I'll stick to English.  I think my client can supply his answers in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you are facilitating the work of the Committee.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Nieuwoudt, in your application I will quote you on page 27.  You said that the reason that you applied violence to the person of Mr Jack, was, and I quote
"To force Mr Jack to give me information that would have enabled me to control the actions of the day;  that is then the boycotts and everything and then to stabilise the Black community."

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is true.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Was the driving force behind this feeling that you had to get the necessary information from Mr Jack and to stop the consumer boycott.  Where did this pressure come from?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was because of the pressure of the Government of the day at that stage and also the State Security Council at these different structures they pressurised the security branches on grassroots level, the foot soldiers to stabilise the anarchy and unrest of the time.

MR VAN DER MERWE: In all the time during your service in the security police, there must have been various reports of assaults and deaths in detention.  Is that true?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is true.

MR VAN DER MERWE: In all that time, did the National Party Government at any stage, clamp down on the powers of the security police and the security forces or did they broaden the powers of the security police and the security forces?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Usually they ensured that we would have broader powers.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And then just to finalise this matter.  At the stage that you assaulted Mr Jack, straight after the assault no further questioning took place.  Is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Was that because at that stage he would not co-operate?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR VAN DER MERWE: But what I'm saying is, was he in a position - maybe you didn't understand - was he in a position to answer you at that stage or didn't he want to co-operate, directly after the assault?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, he didn't want to co-operate after the assault.

MR VAN DER MERWE: When you detained political activists;  once a person would co-operate or would not co-operate, was there any further reason for detaining such a person?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, there was.

MR VAN DER MERWE: What would that be?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: To remove him from the community, to detain him so that he could not continue with his political activities and in such a way then to control the anarchy and the unrest.

MR VAN DER MERWE: At a later stage it became apparent to you that Mr Jack was willing to co-operate in order to obtain his own freedom and those of his comrades.  Is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: At that stage the deal was struck with him which allowed you to free the people and end the consumer boycott.  Is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Would you then say that the assault in this event did contribute directly to the eventual solution of the consumer boycott in solving the problem and ending the consumer boycott?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Is that what you envisaged?  Did you think that is what would happen when you assaulted him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is what the objective and the aim was that I had at that stage.

MR VAN DER MERWE: May I just confer one moment with my client.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Thank you, Mr Commissioner, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Nieuwoudt, when we adjourned this morning you had left us in the dark as to why exactly when you were giving a report to Mr Du Plessis, you did not mention the fact that you had assaulted Mr Jack.
	Would one be correct to think or to speculate that perhaps the reason why you did not tell Mr Du Plessis that you had assaulted Mr Jack, it was because he would have approved anyway?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, if there would have been a case then we would have tried to cover it up whatever the case may be to ensure that we would not get to court. So it was not necessary for me to report that to him.  There was never a pending case.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you had told him that you had assaulted Mr Jack, that is not something he would have disagreed with?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He would have agreed with it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you hear counsel for Mr Jack and Mr Nyoka this morning when he mentioned something about the helicopter-method of torture?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I have heard when he read that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know anything about what is known as the helicopter-method of torture?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I have heard it on different instances.  During testimony in court cases where I testified and other people, but I don't know the methods.  It was then explained how they applied it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How did they explain this particular method of torture?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Their hands are then hand-cuffed and then something like a stick or a rod is put through the arms and then it's placed over two tables.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At the time you were investigating a number of matters or criminal matters in which you believed Mr Jack was involved, who are the other detainees that you interviewed?	Did you interrogate any other leaders who were his colleagues at the time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who were those?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I interrogated Edgar Ngoy.  There was Tolla Makapela, Mzoli Giwas.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may stand down, Mr Nieuwoudt.  Thank you.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Thank you, Your Honour.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any other witness?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Commissioner, we will not be calling any other witness, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And you?

MR NYOKA: Yes, Your Worship, we will be calling Mr Jack to give his testimony.  I wish to apologise for not having made copies of his statement, but we'll avail it later on, but his statement is not very long.  We have afforded the other side with a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you don't have enough copies for us?

MR NYOKA: No, unfortunately. I'm very sorry for that.

CHAIRPERSON: You'll make that available to us?

MR NYOKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Okay.
MR NYOKA CALLS

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: My full names is Mkhuseli Jack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.