Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me, was that a question - by chance?  It was not by chance.  Mr Yengeni was in transit from Milnerton police station where he had already been under arrest, under escort to the point of the stakeout or ambush or whatever we want to call it, and while travelling from Milnerton on the N2, they  drove passed Mr Jonas.  Had Mr Yengeni not said to his escort, "but there is Mr Jonas", in all probability Mr Jonas would still be on his way to wherever he was going, but definitely not to the point of ambush.

MR JONAS: Okay, that is not the point I want to drive to.  What role did you play after I was arrested?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: After the information was made that you had been arrested and you were taken to Culemborg Unit, I arrived there.  There were numerous other people there already.	You were placed in an office and you had been wounded.

MR JONAS: Did you arrive after or did I meet you there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Well, I arrived - as you were arriving, as you got there, or just shortly afterwards.  I am of the opinion I arrived there within minutes after you being there.

MR JONAS: If I say that on my arrival, in fact I was taken from there to the spot where the ambush was set up, and then from there to Athlone police station and I was delayed for about 45 minutes, then from there to Culemborg.  And as I was taken out of the car, you were standing just outside and you welcomed me.  In fact I was surprised because you knew my combat name which I have just asked you.  Do you still remember the people that were there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not everybody.

MR JONAS: Was it all policemen?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as I was concerned, it was all policemen, yes.

MR JONAS: Do you consider the askaris as police?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At that stage they were employed by the South African police, yes.

MR JONAS: Are they police in the true sense of the word "police"?  They were utilised.

CHAIRPERSON: They were agents used by the police.

MR JONAS: They were utilised.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JONAS: Mr Benzien, do you still remember when I was carried out from the car, I can still recall some of the askaris.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Possible.

MR JONAS: Stan Quishi.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I wouldn't know.

MR JONAS: No, he is Morne.  His real name is Morne.  Stan Quishi, I've just met him in December, former askari.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't know.

MR JONAS: Both of them, they were holding both of my hands and you jumped onto my leg?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I deny that Your Honour.

MR JONAS: Do you deny that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I deny that.

MR JONAS: Maybe the court records may reveal otherwise.  Tell me then, you are now famous of this 30 minutes method.  Are you aware of that?  You have seen the newspapers, it is there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I have not looked at any newspaper since this morning, just briefly.

MR JONAS: Okay.  Do you still remember the time I was shot Mr Benzien?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: What time was it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think you were shot in the early evening.

MR JONAS: Half past four in the afternoon?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, I think it was later than that.

MR JONAS: It was half past four.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It was later than that, I am sure of it.  You would know the time more exactly, I do not, because after taking you to Culemborg, we took you to I think it was Khayelitsha or Nyanga, one of the townships ...

MR JONAS: I haven't asked you about that, I am just asking about the time.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, I am trying to get the time in.

MR JONAS: Okay, maybe you were not there, it was half past four.    Because you first met me at Culemborg.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would concede that, but I was under the impression that the shooting incident was much later the afternoon than that.

MR JONAS: Okay.  Do you still remember the time then that you took me to hospital because you were personally there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I personally escorted you to hospital.

MR JONAS: What time was it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was under the impression it was ...

MR JONAS: Past eleven in the evening?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, just before midnight, just after.

MR JONAS: Okay.  Did you stick to your 30 minutes or did you have intentions of getting information from me, or breaking me?  Was I a vital source to get information from?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Yengeni ...

MR JONAS: I am not talking about Mr Yengeni, I am talking about myself.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, sorry, Mr Jonas.

MR JONAS: Did you consider me a vital source when you arrested me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

MR JONAS: Did you stick to your 30 minutes?  Was it standard the method of getting information, 30 minutes, if maybe you have arrested a crucial person?  Or maybe you would even go beyond the 30 minutes to get information?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, it was crucial to get the information from you as soon as possible.

MR JONAS: Then why did you delay then taking me to hospital for so many hours?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I concede that during your, you had been wounded and you were promised medical attention as soon as you had removed your weapons cache which was then done.  We took, I cannot remember, where in the location, but we went through to there and we removed the weaponry, I think which consisted of grenades, AK's and ...

MR JONAS: You never found any AK from me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

MR JONAS: You never found any AK from me.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Grenades, SPM's.

MR JONAS: No SPM's from me.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In any case, there were weapons, weaponry was found from you.

MR JONAS: So do you agree then that the pre-condition for me receiving medical help was to get the satisfying answers or response from me?  Was that a precondition?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir.

MR JONAS: So my medical fate was depended on my cooperation with you?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: As I have asked you earlier, do you apply the conventional methods of what you call interrogation, if a person has been captured and in your mercy and injured, is it not a standard norm then even if it is your enemy, to apply the necessary first aid?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, the wounds on you at that stage were not bleeding profusely.  A pressure bandage was applied to you, if I am not mistaken.

MR JONAS: No, you are mistaken.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I also realise that I was the person who accompanied you to hospital and only during the X-rays it was found that both your femurs had been shattered, if I am not mistaken.

MR JONAS: Okay.  You only realised then that my femurs were fractured?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: But how was I transported from the time ...

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In a blanket.

MR JONAS: In a blanket?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Sir.

MR JONAS: Did you not maybe have any form of curiosity as to find out why is this man not able to walk and had to be transported in a blanket?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, ...

MR JONAS: If only then your first impression was when I had X-rays in hospital?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In retrospect, you were wounded.

MR JONAS: Seriously so

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would consider seriously, now knowing the injuries, but what was more serious to us at that stage, excuse me, was to get your weaponry.

MR JONAS: And not my life as well?

MR JONAS: Your weaponry was more important than my life?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At that time, at that time, and I ask forgiveness for it, your life came second to your armament.

JUDGE WILSON: Now, you both know what you are talking about, perhaps you can explain to me.  When you say carried in a blanket, do you mean lying in a blanket with people carrying the corners?

MR JONAS: Of course, because I could not walk.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you lying?

MR JONAS: Yes.  Do you know Mr, it was Warrant Officer Barnard?  Barry Barnard?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Barnard, yes.

MR JONAS: What role was he playing?