Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-16

WENDY ORR: I just want to clarify one issue before I hand over to the Chairperson and that is around the action or lack of action from Dr Nell.  You say that the injured were taken to his consulting rooms and someone called him - phoned him to come and help.  Is that correct?

MR MCCLUNE: Yes, the injured were taken to his consulting rooms by ambulance and when we got there I asked the ambulance drivers if they phoned Dr Nell and they said yes.  And we waited but he never arrived.

WENDY ORR: [indistinct]

MR MCCLUNE: No I do not know why never arrived, I cannot say.

WENDY ORR: [indistinct] questions.

MS GOBODO: Thank you, any questions?

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson, Mr McClune just to expand on this question about Dr Nell a bit more.  Whom  we are expecting to arrive here during the course of the day and come and give evidence. I would just like to put the question to you like this, on this particular day did he treat any of the injured people?

MR MCCLUNE: No not as far as I know he did not treat anybody because I was there up until the - the ambulances took the injured people to Eben Donges Hospital.

ADV POTGIETER: Up until the stage where the ambulances left with the  injured people was Dr Nell on the seen or not?

MR MCCLUNE: No he did not turn up at all.

ADV POTGIETER: How long present there for in front of his consulting rooms?

MR MCCLUNE: Up until the ambulances took the injured people to Hospital.  I'd say from the time the ambulances left the hall to Dr Nell's consulting rooms it was approximately 5 or 6 minutes later after the ambulances I got there and the ambulances left to the hospital about 30 minutes later.  So I would say about 35 to 36 minutes.

ADV POTGIETER: You say approximately 30 minutes after that the injured people were directly in front of his consulting room busy waiting for him?

MR MCCLUNE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Does this doctor live in Wolseley?

MR MCCLUNE: Yes, he lives in Wolseley because from his house to the consulting rooms is probably a minute or 2 drive.

ADV POTGIETER: So it's not 30 minutes or more?

MR MCCLUNE: No, not at all.

ADV POTGIETER: People assume that the ambulance men would have told the doctor that there are several people who were injured in the shooting incident and that it was a serious situation?

MR MCCLUNE: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Perhaps I could  tell you what the comment is that Dr Nell wrote to us.  We are in possession of a note which he wrote or which has been written on Dr Nell's letter head which reads as follows - it's  dated the 14th of October 1996 and it says that
I was available one the 24th of November 1990 and did not refuse anybody medical attention.  The patients were all taken to Eben Donges Hospital directly per ambulance and I only heard about the incident on the 25th of November 1990.
 In other words according to this note and as I say the doctor will hopefully turn up a bit later to come and give an explanation but according to this note the doctor says that he was never informed on the 24th about this incident.  He merely heard about it the following day on the 25th .  What is your reaction to that?

MR MCCLUNE: I cannot agree with him there because I'm not afraid to differ with him at all - he is my personal GP but I do not fear differing with him.  We were at his consulting rooms that day where the people were in front of his consulting rooms in 2 ambulances and I asked the ambulance drivers if they phoned him and they said yes.  And we decided to wait a while for him, but he did not turn up at all.

ADV POTGIETER: The second aspect which becomes apparent in this note is that Dr Nell says that the patients were all taken directly per ambulance to Eben Donges Hospital.  So it - it becomes apparent through this note that they were taken directly?

MR MCCLUNE: I don't know where he gets this notion that they were taken directly to Eben Donges Hospital because as the people will - will give evidence later they were taken to his consulting rooms.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr McClune thank you and just perhaps one - just to underline the - the placard demonstration which was - went on from 2 o'clock the afternoon till approximately 20 to 6.  Were there any incidents  in that period?

MR MCCLUNE: No, there were no incidents in that time what so ever.

ADV POTGIETER: No problems, no confrontations or any thing?  But were there no confrontations between the police or any body else?

MR MCCLUNE: No there was no confrontation that's why I cannot understand the - that's because the - the time limit was not - had not expired yet.  We still had 20 minutes until - the placard demonstration could have gone on until 6 o'clock.

ADV POTGIETER: So 20 minutes before the end of the demonstration according to the time that you were allowed Mr Hougaard gave an order that he - you people should disperse?

MR MCCLUNE: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: We have already started investigating the incident.  Our Investigative Unit is looking into the matter and they have compiled a report for us and I would like to mention something to you in this report in case you want to comment on it.  It is compiled in English and I am going to read it to you - I am going to read the aspects which I believe are important  
I was at the Police Station to see what record were available and I was told that the Occurrence Book makes no mention of any shooting incident as was Police policy at that time despite the fact that 14 people were shot.  The Occurrence Book also indicates that the most Senior Officer at the Station was the then Warrant Officer Southy hy sal dalk aan u bekend wees and there are several entries in and around the time the incident is said to have occurred where Warrant Officer Southy is mentioned as the Officer issuing weapons.
And although there is absolutely no mention of the shooting incident it says that this Warrant Officer Southy issued firearms to the police at more or less the same time as this - when the shooting incident took place.  Then it also says  Now Captain Southy is - he is now a Captain - Police Station had been turned into an operational center on 24-11-90 and that the Officer commanding the operation was the now Senior Superintendent Hagen -  another police officer - he was apparently in charge of the whole operation -  [indistinct] Southy that the person in charge of the seen where the complainants claim the incident took place was the then Lieutenant Hougaard - the man to who you referred and it seems as if he was the - the person directing this whole thing at the seen.  Then there is reference to the - to the trial itself - the court proceedings.  
And perhaps the part  which explained the part that the police played was that there was conflict.  You version was conflicting with the versions of the other people and the - the explanation which the police gave.  And in our investigative report it says   [indistinct] police suggested that the police acted justifiably to suppress unrest - in other words they were justified because they were trying to suppress riots and unrest and then we also looked at the records at Eben Donges Hospital ...END OF TAPE 2, SIDE A...the victims were treated at Eben Donges Hospital and then we have an - our investigative unit also spoke to Dr Nell and the note reads as follows
 Did not seem to remember what he had done on that day but 
agreed to reflex on the incident that agreed to a request that he 
come to the hearing to testify.
So when our Investigative Team he couldn't remember it very well but he said that he would come and give evidence at the hearing.  
This is what we have at this stage, I do not know if you would like to comment on any of the aspects I have mentioned.