Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

ADV STEENKAMP: We can proceed then with Mr Selepe Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we proceed with Selepe?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, we can proceed with Mr Selepe, Mr Chairman.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: (still under oath)

MR MASHABANE: This is an application which was stood down on Tuesday last week, due to the fact that the applicant's legal representative withdrew, and now the application is made before this Committee with the applicant having acquired another legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you put your name on record for the purposes of the record please?

MR MASHABANE: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: We need you to identify yourself on the record, so that those who type the record can know whose voice they are typing.

MR MASHABANE: My full names sir, Xawe Roland Mashabane, Advocate of the Johannesburg Society of Advocates, and I am standing for the applicant.
	The applicant appears on the bundle from page 118 to page 124.  The application was stood down last week, Tuesday, because there was a misunderstanding between the applicant himself and his legal representative.  That is the question I would love to address before this Committee and I would ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mashabane, you don't have to address us on the reasons for the Attorney having to withdraw.  As long as you are satisfied with the ethical position, then you can proceed with the application.

MR MASHABANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.   The applicant's full names are ...

CHAIRPERSON: We've got that.

MR MASHABANE: Oh, thank you.  Is it true that you are the applicant in this matter?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MASHABANE: Can you look at the documents being shown to you right now, and more particularly page 123, is that that appears on page 124, your signature?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MASHABANE: When did you attach this signature?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I signed at the Boksburg prison, I cannot remember when, but I was in prison at the time, that is my signature.

MR MASHABANE: Who came with the form and asked you to attach your signature?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: The form was brought by comrade Duma Nkosi and another Truth Commission official.

CHAIRPERSON: Now look when we last stopped last week, you were busy explaining to us how you had to go and acquire firearms and how you acquired possession of those firearms and what happened afterwards, do you recall?  Can you recall that?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now explain to us from when you were going back with the firearms, what happened.  Maybe you must start with what you are applying for, first.  What offences are you applying for?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: The offences are as follows:  robbery at Kliprivier police station, that is the first one.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Selepe, where you can, also give us the dates, then we know which incidents.  Even if it is the year, just so that we can separate the incidents.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I am going to ask for assistance from my legal representative, because I cannot remember all of them.  In 1993 the robbery at Kliprivier police station.  The second one, is the murder of Glen Thompson and attempted murder of Mr Sidney Gehlig and the next one is participation in the robbery of a bakkie of Mr Shadrack Tshabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: Attempted robbery or robbery?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Robbery of a Nissan bakkie off Mr Tshabalala.  The next incident is participating in the robbery of firearms and cash from Mr Nana.
	The other one is the attempted murder of two policemen, Immanuel Mashishi and Mr Boshoff.  The next one, robbing of Mr Johannes' Cressida and robbing Mr Johan Konig, firearm robbery, who was employed by a certain security company on the 28th of August in 1992.
	The next two incidents, the escapes that took place in 1993 and another escape took place in 1994.  That is all.  There is another robbery of Mr Mishack's car in 1992 on the 9th month of 1992, on the 27th.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr whose car?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Mr Mishack, Tim Mishack, Sipura Tim Mishack.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MASHABANE: When you participated or committed all these offences, did you belong to any political organisation or liberation movement?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I was a Commander of SDU of Tambo in Slovo Section, I was a Chairman of the Civic Association and the Media Officer of the ANC Youth League.

MR MASHABANE: What were your duties as a Media Officer of the ANC, as a member of the SDU?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: As a Media Officer in the ANC Youth League, my duties were - I was at the Publicity Desk of the youth matters, and I was a Commander of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)  Which of these offences that you referred to, occurred first?  Which was the first one that you committed?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: The first offence according to these dates, I want to check, I would request to be given a chance to check the dates.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if it is important for the purpose of the questions, that you remember dates.  What I want you to do is relate how and why these offences occurred in chronological order, as far as you can.  Do you understand?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I do understand.  The first incident is the one that took place on the 28th, robbing Mr Johan Konig.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: When we robbed Mr Konig, as the member of the SDU, we were running short of weapons.  I got information from one comrade called Lucky Mampuru that there were security guards that were escorting the cars from the firms, on Fridays.

ADV GCABASHE: Just don't talk too fast, take it slower.  Thank you.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I was told that there were security guards that were escorting the cars from the firms.  Those security guards had the firearms that we were looking for.
	We organised a car that we would use as our transport to go and disarm those security guards.  The car that we were going to use, it was difficult for us to use a car that would be traceable.  We decided that we should first rob a company car because we knew very well that a company car, after using it, we would just abandon it anywhere where it would be found by police.

MR MASHABANE: Why specifically to use company cars?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: At that time, we did not want to use ordinary cars, cars belonging to the people or comrades or parents or it is very simple that if ...

CHAIRPERSON: It could easily (indistinct), isn't it so?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get this motor car that you decided to rob?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: We went to Alrode, that is an industrial site.  When we arrived there, it was during the day, we saw this car getting out of the firm, escorting a certain car that was driving in front.  We used the same car that we were driving, and we prevented this car from moving further.
	The people alighted from the vehicle and we also alighted and we pointed guns at them, and we searched them as we were told that we would find firearms.  We found those firearms, and in this car, there was a bag, we could not see this other firearm.  We took that bag.  We went back to the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose car is it, or was it?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: The car that we were using was the car that was robbed from Mr Mampuru.

CHAIRPERSON: And the one you robbed, who did that belong to?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: That was a car that belonged to the security guards.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one of those is that offence referred to in this list you gave us?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: According to my documents, it is referred to as, it took place on the 28th when Mr Johan Konig was robbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.