Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

ADV J MOSES: Would you be able to recall more or less what the distance was between the place where you first dropped the two and the place where you thereafter dropped the three other persons, more or less.

JIMMY MBANE: It's about 200 to 250 metres.

ADV J MOSES: The second group of three people, whom you dropped, can you remember whether any one or all three of them had any firearms or explosives in their possession when they were dropped?

JIMMY MBANE: The last three were armed with pistols and hand grenades.  I gave them the pistols and the hand grenades.  That was the last three.

ADV J MOSES: After you had dropped those three persons, what did you, what was the next thing you have done, Mr Mbane?

JIMMY MBANE: I  dropped one of them - he was also armed with a pistol.  We were left, we were three in the kombi.  It was me, Chris and one gentleman.  We had three AK47's.  All of us were armed with AK47's.
	When I was crossing the bridge, I heard something like a grenade exploding and I jumped.

ADV J MOSES: You said you went over the bridge and you made a U-turn and came back and the three of you, yourself, Chris and this other person, you were still in the kombi and amongst the three of you, you had three AK47's in the kombi.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, Sir.

ADV J MOSES: And you were now as you were approaching the scene or the place where you had dropped your members of the group, you heard an explosion.

JIMMY MBANE: It was on my way back after the U-turn, when I was approaching the spot where I had dropped them, I heard the explosion that sounded like a hand grenade and then I jumped.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, what do you mean you jumped.  Did you jump while you were in the vehicle, or did you jump out of the vehicle?  What precisely did you mean you jumped...

JIMMY MBANE: I hit the pavement and I jumped out of the car.  I opened the door and I jumped out of the car, out of the kombi.

ADV J MOSES: Can you recall after you had jumped out of the kombi that has now hit the kerb, what happened to the other two persons who were with you in the kombi?

JIMMY MBANE: I am not sure but I think Rasta was sitting next to the door.  After jumping out of the car, I left my AK47 in the kombi.  I jumped out of the car, I went behind the car.  We were exchanging fire.  I heard someone pulling this other gentleman out of the car.
	I was not far from the car, when I saw the people pulling this gentleman out of the car.  I heard a gunshot inside the kombi.  Bellingan pulled this gentleman and the gentleman fell, fell down, and he shot him.  Although he was saying, "Don't shoot this person because he is working with us", that's when I ran away.

ADV J MOSES: I don't know whether I did not follow the interpreter that clearly or whether that was a direct translation Mr Mbane.  You were explaining that Mr Bellingan had a person in front of him on the ground, and you were explaining as I could gather here indicating a shooting movement, but at the same time you said that Bellingan said don't shoot this person, in Afrikaans.
	Do you know to whom Bellingan referred when he uttered those words?  "Moenie die persoon skiet nie", don't shoot that person.

JIMMY MBANE: There were some people around.  A lot of people. He was talking to some of them.  After having given that instruction, there was a cease fire.

CHAIRPERSON: But who was the person that he said should not be shot?

JIMMY MBANE: It was myself.  I was not supposed to be shot, according to him.

ADV J MOSES: You were also referring to a person which was dragged out of this vehicle and...by Mr Bellingan.  What exactly did you observe?  What was happening there Mr Mbane?

JIMMY MBANE: He opened and then I heard a shot ringing in the car.  As to whether he had already shot him when he pulled him out, that I did not see.  But what I saw is when he shot him when he was on the ground, lying on his side.
	But I heard a shot ringing in the car and he dragged this man out of the car.

ADV J MOSES: And that "he" that you are referring to, as translated by the interpreter, that is Mr Bellingan that you are referring to?

JIMMY MBANE: I am referring to him, Mr Bellingan.

ADV J MOSES: Was that the only thing that you observed before you ran away, before you took flight Mr Mbane, or is there anything else which you observed there in that vicinity.

JIMMY MBANE: No, that is the only thing I saw.
	And that is the only thing that I saw, at close range.

ADV J MOSES: And you said thereafter that you ran away and you were assisted by people who were living in that vicinity.

JIMMY MBANE: That is so, Sir.

ADV J MOSES: And after you caught a bus, you made contact with your other people, your commander again at Koeberg.  Did I understand you correct?

JIMMY MBANE: I started in Guguletu wherefrom I proceeded to Khayelitsha, and from thereon they dropped me off at the bus terminus, where I took a bus because I realised I had to go - everything was out of proportion.

ADV J MOSES: Did you ascertain, just before I conclude my section of the examination in chief, did you...were you informed or do you know how many people were killed or died there as a result of that...the shooting that took place at that specific intersection or place in Guguletu, Mr Mbane?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I was told.

ADV J MOSES: And what were you told?

JIMMY MBANE: I was told that the whole seven died.

ADV J MOSES: Meaning except yourself and Eric, the group who was with you, everyone?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, the whole group.

ADV J MOSES: It is also mentioned here in paragraph 35 that you and Eric received a reward after that incident had taken place.
	Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes.

ADV J MOSES: You were rewarded R7000.00 each?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct.  Mbelo received R1000.00.

ADV J MOSES: Is there anything that you would like to add for the benefit of the Committee?  To your explanation of what has happened on that specific day of the incident, Mr Mbane?

JIMMY MBANE: The only thing I can say is that I took other people's children and I trained them and led them to their death.
	That I am not happy about.  Because thereafter, I divorced my wife because of this incident.  I parted with my wife and children.  This could have been avoided.  They could not have been shot, because they knew where these people were staying.  They had staged a fly-over and I was dressed in a white cap and they circled the place.  And these boys wanted to shoot at them.  They knew where these people were residing.  They had enough chance to come and arrest us and avoid all  this.  
	They flew over the area for quite a long time, many a time.  Thus, I say that this could have been avoided.  It is just that they had decided that they were going to kill them.  They had just told themselves that these people had to be killed.
	Thus I say that all this would have been avoided and these children would have been alive today.

ADV J MOSES: Mr Chairman, I thank you and members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn until tomorrow morning.  I am sorry I didn't ask Counsel this morning what time they would suggest would be a convenient time.

UNKNOWN: My Lord, as on previous occasions I have indicated to your Lordship that 9:30, 9 'o clock gives us a problem coming in from where we are staying, as well as Mr de Kock, the Cape traffic is not as easy to deal with as the traffic in Durban for example.

CHAIRPERSON: The problems surrounding Mr de Kock being here on time are perhaps more important than for the rest of us, so we'll make it 9:30.  Does that suit?  Nine thirty tomorrow morning.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION 04.02.98  -   DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Are we ready to commence with cross-examination?