Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-20

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, learned committee members the next witness will be the tenth applicant, Mr Mangena.  Mr Mangena will testify in Sotho Mr Chairman.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: (sworn states)

MR TIPP: Mr Mangena I'm just going to get on record some of your personal particulars and your background.  You were born on 21 January 1957 in Sophiatown.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And your family was one of those that was forcibly removed from there to Soweto?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: In 1976 you were at school in form 3 at Morris Isaacson School?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: That as we know is the year of the Soweto uprising and is it correct that during that period you made contact with underground structures of the African National Congress?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Is it correct further that a group of four, including yourself, then decided to go into exile and that in September of that year, 1976, you indeed crossed the border illegally into Botswana?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You did training under the auspices of the ANC in various countries including Tanzania and Ghana and the Soviet Union?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: During your period in exile you were recruited into the Department of Intelligence and Security of the ANC?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And in 1991 you returned to South Africa, still with the Department of Intelligence and Security?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you were employed in that position as at the time of the incident at Shell House on 28 March 1994?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Mr Mangena I'm going now to deal with your application.  Mr Chairman I omitted to mention the page numbers, it begins at page 118 of the bundle and there is also, as in the case of the other applicants, a supplementary Affidavit  at page 129 A-D in bundle C.  Mr Mangena you completed an application for amnesty in your own handwriting.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Can you repeat that?

MR TIPP: Yes.  You completed an application for amnesty in your own handwriting?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You have also submitted with that application an Affidavit  deposed to by you which was also put in at the time of the inquest?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you have attested to a short supplementary Affidavit ?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR TIPP: Do you this morning confirm the correctness of those documents?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I confirm the correctness of that.

MR TIPP: Mr Mangena I'm now going to turn to the events at Shell House and may I remind you that an interpreter is available to assist you.  Mr Mangena in your type written Affidavit , beginning at page 125, set out various incidents that took place in the course of Sunday evening the 27th of March and the morning of 28th March.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Can you please repeat your question sir.

MR TIPP: Yes.  In the type written Affidavit  beginning at page 125, you set out some incidents involving yourself in the evening of Sunday 27 March and early morning of Monday 28 March.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That is correct.

MR TIPP: Now I want to proceed ... (inaudible - end of tape)

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I follow.

MR TIPP: Mr Mangena, immediately before that shooting incident you were in King George Street and you moved up King George Street in the direction of De Villiers Street.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That is correct.

MR TIPP: Would you please Explain to the committee why you did that, why you went up in the direction of De Villiers Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: To go to that direction of De Villiers Street there were people coming, running towards the building, running away from the IFP march.  They were telling us we should go and look what is happening because there was a group of IFP people who were coming from that direction.

MR TIPP: Mr Mangena perhaps if you could just bear in mind that the interpreter must keep up with you and don't go too fast, alright.  Did you hear yourself any sounds coming from the direction of De Villiers Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That is true, I heard some sounds from that direction from De Villiers Street, whether it came from which crowd of people I did not know until I arrived at that street, De Villiers Street and then I saw with my own eyes.

MR TIPP: What sounds had you heard?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: It was sounds of people singing, gunshots, various kinds of sounds which were coming from that direction.

MR TIPP: Once you got to a position where you could look into De Villiers Street, what did you observe?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I saw many marchers coming towards Shell House.  They were on De Villiers Street towards Shell House.

MR TIPP: What did you do?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I returned to go near my colleagues who were on King George Street.

MR TIPP: You moved a little southwards back in the direction of Plein Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That is correct sir.

MR TIPP: Where did you then take up position?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I took my position I think on the third pillar from Plein Street, that's where I took my position.  At that time that group of marchers appeared or immersed from the corner at the of King George Street and De Villiers Street.

MR TIPP: I just you want to clarify Mr Mangena have you got the bundle - well let me put it this way, Mr Chairman there is a diagram SS at page 254 but perhaps I can just deal with it orally.  Mr Mangena in King George Street there are pairs of pillars as you move up the street.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That is correct.

MR TIPP: At which pair were you, at which set of pillars?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I was on the second pair of the pillars.

MR TIPP: And from that position were you able to look up King George Street in the direction of Noord Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No, I was not able to see to Noord Street.

MR TIPP: But you could see across King George Street to the western side of it?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Would you proceed please and describe to the committee what then took place as the group came into your view.  What were they doing?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: When I saw that group emerging whilst I was still on that pillar, I saw that those people are coming towards the building, that is Shell House.  I shot three times but I was not directed those shots to them, I was shooting in the air.  The reason was that I was trying to show them that we are armed so that they should be repelled from their purpose of advancing.

MR TIPP: Three warning shots?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That is correct.

MR TIPP: Can you just describe a little more closely what the conduct was of this group.  What was it about them that led you to feel that you should fire warning shots?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Their behaviour was that of people attacking.  That was shown by their movement when they approached towards Shell House.

MR TIPP: What was your personal state of mind at the time that you fired those shots?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: This things were happening so fast, I was scared.  I saw that this people are not going anywhere other than coming to attack.

MR TIPP: Please proceed then, you've described that the three warning shots were fired, what happened after that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: After I shot three times.  It shows that they did not respond to my warning shots, they proceeded coming, then I heard Mr Gary saying that we shoot, after that I started shooting towards those people, to that group which were coming towards King George Street.

MR TIPP: You fire a number of shots into that group?