Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, to the best of my recollection, I think it was - I'm not exactly sure when in December it took place, it's hard to say, it could have been in the middle of the month, it's quite possible.  I'm not going to - I can't dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	And if, and it's if, if the domestic worker, whether it's Betty's domestic worker or the next door neighbour's domestic worker last saw Betty Boom on the 16th of December, it means she was not seen by her until she met Pitso, who arrived at the house of Betty Boom?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's how I interpret this what is written here.

MR MALINDI: And Pitso says he was in Maseru until 1989, that's at paragraph 4, and he never saw Betty Boom from the date that he arrived at Maseru and made his enquiries, until 1989 when he left for Lusaka.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: What is the - do you want me to confirm or ...

MR MALINDI: I'm just saying it stands, that's what Pitso is saying in his statement.  It's not necessarily true.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's what stands in his statement, yes Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, that the point I was trying to make.  The witness has now given an answer which is utterly wrong, Pitso doesn't say in his statement that he didn't see Betty until 1989, he says - the last sentence in paragraph at page 52, he says something entirely different.
"In as far as I am concerned, Betty was unheard of in our ranks in Lesotho, up till the time I left Lusaka, Zambia, in mid-1989."
And that's what I was trying to avoid, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ... suggest that the try was continuous.

MR VISSER: It simply doesn't say that he didn't see her until that time, because that is the question that was put to this witness and he's agreed to it.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just first suggest to you Mr Malindi, that when you want comments about a statement which you may call a witness to confirm it or not, but if you want just comment, just stick to the gravity of what you're asking, it would make everybody comfortable.  Because I don't even want Mr Robertshaw to agree to something that is totally wrong, I don't think that's the object from your side.  But I'm merely cautioning, that let's try our utmost.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I'll endeavour not to confuse or make witnesses admit what is a misrepresentation of what is in the statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Robertshaw, you say you did not handle the witness, is that so?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I'm not aware of any witnesses, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: I'm sorry, I meant informers.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: When you say handle them, do you mean did I personally debrief them and give them instructions and that type of thing?

MR MALINDI: Thulo and Jantjie testified that collectively they were about 20 informers that were informing on the liberation movements in Lesotho, did you have any direct contact with those informers?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I think if I remember, I'm speaking under correction, I think Jantjie said there were about 30 in Lesotho that he handled and I think Thulo said in the region of 13.  I'm speaking under correction.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is that he spoke of 30 activists, not informers.

MR LAX: He had 20.  I've checked the transcript on it.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I didn't have dealings with the informers directly.

MR MALINDI: Thank you.  Mr Robertshaw, I'm going to read the transcript of the evidence of Jagga, I'm sure your legal team has a copy.  At page 345, right at the bottom, the last two lines...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Page 345?

MR MALINDI: 345.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I've got the page.

MR MALINDI: You've got the page.  And the Committee,  has the ...

CHAIRPERSON: We do, thank you Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: That's me asking a question to Mr Jagga
"Before making contact with Betty Boom, did you have knowledge of Tax Sejanamane and Nomasonto Mashiya?"
on the next page the answer is by Mr Jagga:
"Only of Tax Sejanamane, Chairperson, and then we found out about Betty Boom and then about Nomasonto in that sequence."
What I'm suggesting to you is that when Betty Boom was at Ladybrand, at the farm, it therefore was not necessary for Betty Boom to give the name and the address of Tax Sejanamane, because he was already known by your section, is that not so?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, there's a difference between knowing about somebody and knowing exactly where they stay and what their daily routine is.  When I came to Ladybrand they told me that one of the people in Lesotho was Tax Sejanamane.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Robertshaw, you sat throughout the evidence of all of them.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the tenor of this evidence is that Nomasonto Mashiya and Tax Sejanamane became known or contact was made after Betty Boom was already in "abducted" and she was at Ladybrand.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you follow the crux here of the question, is that what Mr Jagga is saying
"Only of Tax Sejanamane and then found out about Betty Boom and then about Nomasonto, in that sequence"

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So what I read into that is that they knew of Tax Sejanamane, then thereafter they knew of Betty Boom and then lastly of Nomasonto.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: As long as you understand that, I don't want to take the thunder, I don't know what question he's got in mind.  You may proceed, Mr Malindi.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
	So with your capabilities as an intelligence section you could done to Tax what you did to Betty Boom, by monitoring her movements and so on, you could have done that to Tax before you were given the address and other information by Betty Boom.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson, we could not.

MR MALINDI: What I'm suggesting to you is that these four incidents appear to have been incidents that took place at different times and that you and your fellow applicants have brought them together to make it easier for you to give an explanation for their disappearance, although their disappearances were at different times.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: And then lastly, I have already put the suggestion to you that the victims were never returned to Lesotho, and I suggest to you that just as Thulo's observations are concerned, they were last seen on the farm in Ladybrand.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I've already stated that I was told by Mr Jagga and by Mr Jantjie that they returned them to Lesotho.  I was not present when they were returned to Lesotho.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malindi.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson.
	Actually what information did you have of Tax Sejanamane, prior to the abduction of Betty?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: The information that we had was that he was a trained MK cadre, that he was in Lesotho.  We didn't know his precise whereabouts and what his actual functions in Lesotho were.  That's all I can recall about him.

MR MAPOMA: How did you personally get to know that information?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That information?

MR MAPOMA: Yes.