Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No Sir, I cannot falsely implicate Peens.  Yes I do not deny that I implicated Mswake and Bapi because of the torture at the hands of the police but I was not tortured when it comes to Peens, I am the one who volunteered the information.  See I was present on the evening of the attack at Boipatong.  Now I am seeing a pattern here as if the police and IFP are being protected.  The TRC is meant for the divulsion of the truth.

MR LOWIES: Let's examine Mr Chaka.  So you say on the first occasion where Peens tortured you on a motor car theft case he was present, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying he tortured me at the time when I was still staying in the township.  Chaka was present but he did not torture me.  He tried to threaten me in Vereeniging but he did not torture me.

MR LOWIES: What was he doing being present at the time when you were arrested for motor car theft, I'm talking about Chaka, why was he there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He's a member of the murder and robbery unit.  He did not torture me.

MR LOWIES: Was Peens also a member of the murder and robbery unit or was he at that stage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: So Chaka and Peens belongs to the same unit?
Correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Now in the robbery case where you were tortured by Peens, what did Chaka do?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He did not lay his hand on me I just saw him there, I cannot say he tortured me.  The one person who was busy with me was Peens, not Chaka.

MR LOWIES: Rooikop, was he a member of the murder and robbery squad to your knowledge?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Danie, is he a member of the murder and robbery squad to your knowledge?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Rooikop, was he present when you were assaulted by Peens in the first instance, the motor car theft case?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying he was present but he did not torture me.

MR LOWIES: What was his role, what was he doing whilst you were being tortured?  I talking about Rooikop now.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say he participated in any way, I do not want to commit myself.  The one person who tortured me is Peens.

MR LOWIES: Was Rooikop present when you were tortured in the armed robbery case?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You asked me that question and I answered it and I said that Rooikop was present at the police station in Vanderbijl but he did not tortured me, only Peens tortured me.

MR LOWIES: Let's make it clear, did he observe the torturing of you, Mr Rooikop, when Peens was so busy torturing you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did see Rooikop as I was being tortured, he did not participate in the torture.  He was present but he did not participate.

MR LOWIES: And Danie, was he present?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: These people are working together, yes they were present.

MR LOWIES: Now I may not have canvassed this with you so bear with me.  Please be patient.  Danie was present during the torturing of you in regard to the motor car theft case as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they were all there.

MR LOWIES: And also in the armed robbery case or in the robbery case, he was also present?  I'm talking about Danie.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say I saw him.  I saw him when I was arrested for robbery.

MR LOWIES: Do you know any other policemen but for Peens,
Chaka, Danie and Rooikop belonging to the or being attached to the murder and robbery squad at the time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes there were some others but I cannot - I do not know their names.  One other person that I can recall is Abe.

MR LOWIES: So you can recall Abe?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Besides those you do not know anybody else from the murder and robbery squad by their names?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't want to tell a lie.

MR LOWIES: When did you meet Abe, before or after Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only started to know Abe when I was arrested for the vehicle.

MR LOWIES: So that is before Boipatong?  No, no, no, it's after Boipatong, sorry.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was before I went to stay at the hostel, I was still staying at the township, I only knew him at the police station after the vehicle offence.

MR LOWIES: Now Mr Nosenga, what I'd like to put to you regarding the role players that you have heavily implicated the night before the attack is the following.  We will prove that Mr Kezwa who you have implicated was physically in jail, could not have been there.  You say that's a lie?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that, I saw Gadise, I don't know that he was in jail.

MR LOWIES: No, you would agree if he was in jail he could not have been there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know, I saw him last on the 17th.  I am saying that he was for example sentenced to four years he would not serve all the four years, he would just come and go.

MR LOWIES: You see the evidence of some of the other applicants were also at that time of Boipatong, Mr Kezwa was definitely in custody, at least three other applicants testified the same.  So they're also lying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying here yes Victor Kezwa was not present during the attack at Boipatong, I only saw him last during the day.  We should not play house here.

MR LOWIES: I'm not sure what you're saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We should not play house here, I am saying I saw Victor Kezwa last June the day of the 17th, I did not see him during the attack at Boipatong.  You see, people died there.  We should not waste people's time here at the TRC.  Other legal counsel should be given a chance to ask questions.

MR LOWIES: I have to earn my money, Sir.  No, be serious.  I apologise too.

CHAIRPERSON: You still have approximately 35 minutes.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.
	Now Sir, the next question that I'd like to canvass with you pertains to your knowledge of the complicity of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished putting what you wanted to put to the witness?  The only aspect you've put so far relates to Kezwa, is that the only aspect?

MR LOWIES: Sorry, I was going to turn to the next one.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yes.

MR LOWIES: Hunter Ndhlovu, who is he and did you know him before?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did, he stayed in Zone 7.

MR LOWIES: Was he part of Victor Kezwa's gang?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: You never implicated him when you were tortured by the police regarding the drive by shootings.  Was he part of the drive by shootings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct but I did not divulge their names.

MR LOWIES: But why did you give his name but chose to mention Mswake and Bapi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was trying to avoid being tortured.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I implicated, falsely implicated Bapi and Mswake because I was trying to avoid being tortured.

MR LAX: The question was, why didn't you implicate Hunter Ndhlovu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would not have given those names onto the police because they were known, those people were known.

MR LOWIES: So what difference would that make?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I already stated before that they worked with the police, they would not be arrested for long.  I do not know how else to explain it to you.

MR LOWIES: But they were your friends so it would be in your favour if they are not in custody for long?  What is the point you're trying to make?