Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

MR PRIOR: But surely when you gave this answer up, or this explanation, you understood that the question wanted to know, the question was asking who gave you the orders  to carry out in particular, the Heidelberg attack?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you understood that to be the question, is that right?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: So in fact, when you told or filled in the form or gave up that reply, you intended to include Letlapa Maphalela as one of the people at least that had given the order to attack Heidelberg, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, but he did not give me the order directly.  Sichumiso was under him, under Letlapa.

MR PRIOR: Why did you not say so in your application, why did you not make it clear?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Well, it should be clear now, I don't think you should be getting any difficulty right now as I explained it.

MR PRIOR: Well, you also seem and correct me if I am mistaken, do you deny that you received a direct order from Bulelani Xuma to attack Heidelberg?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I did not.

MR PRIOR: Then why did you mention his name as one of the people who gave the order?  Is that not true?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: He did not give me a direct order, sir.  But as a person who was part of the leadership of APLA, he was Letlapa's deputy.  Sichumiso could not just give me an order if his directors were not aware, it is clear that is from higher up in the hierarchy.

MR PRIOR: I understand what you are saying.  Why did you not simply give the explanation that you are giving now, in response to that question when you filled it in, I take it that the Grootvlei Prison?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that one must take into account that these application forms were made while they were in prison without the benefit of legal advise and so on, that might explain perhaps some of the variants that one sees.

MR PRIOR: I take the Committee's point, Mr Chairman.  However, if I may just then put to him I want to suggest to you that when you wrote as you have written and filled out this form, you intended to include Maphalela, Bulelani Xuma and Sichumiso Nonxuba as the people who had given you the order to attack among other places, the Heidelberg Tavern?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: And that was as a result of a direct order?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.  Were you described, or would you describe yourself as a Local Commander in the situation that you found yourself in in Cape Town during November of 1993?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was a Unit Commander, not a Local Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Just help me, please help me.  Once you are appointed a Commander, is that just for a particular project or are you appointed a Commander and you act as a Commander throughout for other events as well?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was a Commander for this job, but I also received orders from other Commanders.  I don't know if you are understanding me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you were a Commander for this particular occurrence only?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not permanently appointed as a Commander, is that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Who was the Local Commander in Cape Town at the time?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I would not know.  I was just in Umtata.  I was not told who the Local Commander in Cape Town would be.

MR PRIOR: I just want to make it absolutely clear that your orders to attack Heidelberg emanated from Transkei and not whilst you were in Cape Town?  Is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: You see, at the submissions made, or at the TRC hearing on the 7th of October, at page - Mr Chairman, 190 of the paginated Bundle, the PAC's submission made said the following and I quote from half way down the page.  "Detailed plans could not be made from Dar Es Salaam, the actual targets were decided by Local Commanders.  We also found that internally trained cadres could mount many operations without early detection and arrest.  This advantage had a disadvantage.
	In the militarised environment in our country in the 1990's in the face of third force violence against our people and vigils, in places of worship and in trains and taxi's, internally based operatives often made errors that APLA had earlier avoided.  There was little political work done unlike in the camps abroad."
	Do you understand what I have read out?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Have you heard that before, has that been canvassed with you, possibly by your legal representatives?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What you read out?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I have heard it before.

MR PRIOR: And is that correct - that what the PAC was saying that APLA cadres often made errors in these attacks or missions that were launched on behalf of APLA because of an apparent breakdown of communication?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I think you should refer that question to the APLA Commanders because first of all, it is them who chose targets, they are the ones who gave orders.  As a member of PAC and APLA it is not my job to sit here and dispute decisions that were made by the leadership.  I don't know why they took the decision high up in the hierarchy.

MR PRIOR: Now, you indicated to the Committee that you don't know what would have happened if you had not carried out that order to kill people indiscriminately at Heidelberg Tavern?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: So you are not in a position to say that there would have been any disciplinary action taken against you for not carrying out this attack?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Sir, as I said I do not know what would have happened to me.  But if a soldier defied orders, he would have been dealt with accordingly.  It is not for me to know what would have happened.

MR PRIOR: But you weren't told by Nonxuba or Letlapa Maphalela or the other fellow, Bulelani Xuma, that if you failed to carry out this mission, certain things may happen to you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: There is one thing I want to make clear.  First of all I joined voluntarily, you understand, I had a conviction.  I felt the oppression at the time personally.  I was clear about the oppression.  I was willing to do it.
	And it was expected of me as well.  I joined the PAC to work for them, to work against the oppressors.

MR PRIOR: Now that seems to me to be a political statement, rather than a military statement, is that so?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is a question of an expression of a personal conviction, that he joined as a result of his own conviction against ...

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Is it not correct that you were politically informed, you were kept informed of the political situation in the country?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I knew about it.

MR PRIOR: Did you not accept that the war of liberation had come to an end, that the peace process was in place, that the transitional council or government had been put in place and that elections were eminent, did you not accept that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all sir, I am an APLA soldier.  As an APLA soldier I am a member of the PAC.
	As APLA soldiers we are members of PAC, which is the mother body, the political direction which was taken by the country, did not effect me.  As soldiers we had to fight the war.  Our political leadership did not say that we must stop fighting it, we could not stop fighting then.
	As soldiers, if an order had not come that we must stop fighting, we could not have stopped.  PAC had not reached that decision at that time, that we must stop fighting.  We were following orders accordingly.