Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-22

REV XUNDU: The next.

NTOMBIZIDWA MARTHA KAMATI: (sworn states)

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  The next.

PHILDA VIOLET NDABAMBI: (sworn states)

REV XUNDU: (sworn states)

MAGGIE TYOBEKA: (sworn states)

MARIA MKAYI: (sworn states)

NOTELE ANGELINA DASTILE: (sworn states)

BONGANI FINCA: We welcome you to this Commission today realising that we are now in another stage which I think is of great importance to day in this Queenstown hearing.
 As we are going to talk about the Mlungisi massacre.
 This is still fresh in our minds.  That day which can never be forgotten.  Perhaps it cannot be forgotten even by the people in the Eastern Cape.  
 People who were in the top posts of the Government at that time, when into a church building and they started shooting wildly, killing people and injured a lot of people here in Mlungisi.   In the Methodist Church, that is where it happened.  They showed that they were not respecting the people as well as God on that day because they happened to be in power for a short while.
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 There were 11 people who died on that particular
incident.  I think 6 of those have been represented here by 
witnesses.  The one person here is one who was actually shot at immediately thereafter. We therefore welcome you to this hearing today.  We therefore hail even those heroes who died on that particular day in the church.
 We shall therefore give you an opportunity to give us the details of what happened on that day or even at that time and also what happened to those people you have come to represent here today.
 We shall therefore ask Tiny Maya to take the lead and I also think that you shall be able to express yourselves even if you don't tell us everything, but give us a full picture of what happened and then you help one another as you do it.
 But let us assure you that here in this hearing today you have come before us as people who have come to represent the hero's of the struggle here in Mlungisi here in Queenstown.   Over to you Tiny Maya.

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I greet you all.  First on the list we have of the people who lost some people in that church of Nonzwakazi, Ntombizodwa Kamati, who is going to talk for herself about two of her sons Siphiwo and Thamsanqa.  Siphiwo is here at the moment, but Thamsanqa died.  So we are going to ask you Ms Kamati to give us the detailed background telling us of the events of the day, what was happening in that church building and also tell us of who was responsible for this meeting and briefly tell us about yourself and your children.
 And tell us which organisation were you supporting at that time, thank you.
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NM KAMATI: On the 17th November 1985, there was a very
big meeting that was convened at Nonzwakazi Church.  It was a meeting for the residents about matters pertaining the residents.
 It was called by our organisation.  Those were difficult times.  A meeting of the day was to start at two in the afternoon at Nonzwakazi.  I was also present.
 And my children too were present. The meeting went on, we were listening, all the matters that were being discussed.  The main matters were absence of toilets, the sharing of public toilets.  This was a major issue which made people to be annoyed.
 And there was this lodger's permit that people disliked, because you would be arrested five o'clock in the morning by the police and then they would move with you in their van up and down, taking people from all over the location until it was at eight when they opened their office.
 They used to make a lot of money with this lodger's permits.  Such that we used to advise one another as residents that if one of us was arrested, we would shout and say (indistinct) meaning the White people are here and we would run and go to the camp and do nothing there, trying to escape from them.
 So this meeting went on and on.  Whilst we were listening, it was on this day when everything had to be concluded.  We were inside, some of the people were outside.
 Those standing outside saw the police coming and they heard the police talking and counting minutes.  We were inside and therefore we couldn't hear.
 What we heard and saw was policemen at the door 
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throwing in the teargas, shooting so that they could get 
inside and shoot.
 It was tough, people died, people were stampeded.  Whilst I was inside I tried to get out so we tried, we clustered in corners, we tried to push out of windows and we managed.
 It was in summer and the grass was long so we hid there, but unfortunately there were bees that started stinging us, so we ran to the toilet.  Then the youth called us out and said come out, because they have come.
 So we scattered, I ran to a nearby church, the Moravian Church.  Inside there I found that there was a church service and so I went in and some people mingled amongst the worshippers, but it was difficult to come out.
 We couldn't run home, there were police, White policemen and as well as Black policemen in hippos.  The youth said you old ladies, come out, we are going to assist you and take you back home.
 They were calling each and every car that was around, that the drivers should be of assistance and take the old people and take them back to their homes.  That is how therefore I managed to go back home.
 When I got home, a few minutes after I had arrived, and I was still panting, I heard a nearby person calling me, Mama Kamati, Mama Kamati, so I came out together with my mother.
 When we appeared outside, she said there are definitely some young people who have been shot and I think one of them is Thamsanqa and Siphiwo, was he not dressed in a black and striped skipper.
 Then I said, yes, he was dressed like that.  I then 
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went into the house and I was confused, I didn't know what 
to do because there was still some shooting outside and I was not ready to come out.
 So time went by, time went by and then when the lights were on they came.  Siphiwo swollen as he was, he crawled and got to my sister's home, Mama Tsotetzi.
 When she got there, she saw some young boys who then tried to take out these bullets.  I didn't know what to do.
 We were stuck.  Then I asked someone to go and get some vehicle to come to my rescue so that I could go to the hospital.
 Someone had told me that he had been shot dead, but there was some rumours that he was still alive, but we were confused therefore then I decided that I should get some transport to get to the hospital and also to the church office, but I couldn't get any transport at the time, then I had to go to sleep as things were.
 And Siphiwo was in great pain, swollen as he was.

MS MAYA: Then did you ultimately get to the place where Thamsanqa was?

NM KAMATI: Yes, the following morning, my sister first told me that we should go to work.  So that we could be given some leave.  Then we thought we were going to get to the police.  Anyway, we went to the mortuary ultimately.
 You know whenever I mention the mortuary, I always feel some deep pain.

MS MAYA: Mama, are you still going to continue or Siphiwo is going to take over?