Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MARY BURTON: That helps us to understand why those structures were also involved in the planning strategies.  But then there were other, at that time, more serious issues, issues for example of weapons being found in the area or suspicions that weapons might be in the area, that military training was taking place, was that the sort of thing that you reported as well?

MR DU TOIT: Yes.  My area was actually squatters.  If I would pick up any rumour or obtain any information regarding firearms in that context I would feed that information through in the normal way by means of a telex to the Commissioner of Police in Pretoria and also in the other normal ways I would report that.  But it was mainly the social issues where I received lots of complaints and questions about.

MARY BURTON: So just to go back a little bit, when you reported to these meetings what were the different structures that were present when you reported either at the Thomas Boydell building meetings or the Pinelands meetings?

MR DU TOIT: Oh could I please just - could you repeat your question please, I am not entirely sure what your question is.

MARY BURTON: What structures or what individuals were represented at those meetings of the Joint Information Committee or the Joint Management Centre when you went to report to them?

MR DU TOIT: The report which I did in the JMC is only regarding the social issues and I don't think - it's not impossible but as far as I can recall these reports never dealt, the reports to the JMC never dealt with for instance violence, weapons etc.  At the JMC what we dealt with there, as far as I can recall, were these social problems that I have mentioned.   I think that answers your question.

MARY BURTON: What I was asking was who you were reporting to, so that we know for example that you would be reporting directly to the Security Police and the Police, but what other structures were receiving those reports?

MR DU TOIT: Are you talking about the squatter issue and the social problems specifically?  I apologise for the fact that I can't understand your question, I just want to be very clear about this.  The people present there were the certain groupings, it was certain State departments, South African Police and the Defence Force.  There were various different State line functionaries.

MARY BURTON: Can you be a bit more specific when you say "State line functionaries", it may not have been the Afrikaans word you used?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, what I mean is the following.  The Department of Education and Training for instance when it dealt with school issues, where there were certain problems at schools, or the Department of Constitutional Development they were also sometimes represented, or officials from that department.  The Development Board, local management and boards.  I hope that answers your question.

MARY BURTON: And at the meetings in Pinelands?

MR DU TOIT: I am not certain whether I attended any JMC meetings in Pinelands, it may be that they were JMC meetings, but normally most of the JMC meetings - I apologise it's a long time ago, I don't have amnesia about this but I really - I am struggling to remember because it was so long ago.  I think I might have attended JMC meetings in Pinelands and I would have reported in the same format.

MARY BURTON: Then just to go back to the process of gathering information, how did you go about that?  You were present yourself in the area, did you use sources to give you information?

MR DU TOIT: My way of working was mainly to speak to people, to make friends with them.  I would ask them how they were and whether they had any problems.  I told them that I was a policeman but that I would help them wherever I could, so I would simply ask, do you have any problems and in that way I would make friends and win their trust.

MARY BURTON: But I understand that there came a time when at least some parts of the areas in Crossroads and KTC became unsafe for you to go into?

MR DU TOIT: Yes that is correct.  Conditions deteriorated after a while, especially after 1985 and 1986, things became more and more difficult.  It became more and more difficult to function properly.

MARY BURTON: So how did you manage then to find the information that you needed to report to your superior officers?

MR DU TOIT: I still went out in the peaceful times, during times of calm, but I must tell you my - I couldn't do the same amount of work, I must tell you that, but whenever I could I still went out and did my best to obtain the necessary information.  I also, for instance, had contact with people in the surrounding areas.  I would meet up with a familiar face then I would stop and chat and find out what the latest information was.  But it was difficult, in 1985 and 1986 it actually was increasingly difficult.

MARY BURTON: Did you use people who were paid to give you information?

MR DU TOIT: No, no I didn't make use of paid informers, these were only occasional sources, people who would give you information about a particular trend or aspect of the problem, so no I didn't have any paid and appointed informers.

MARY BURTON: We have heard from other officers in the police that paid informers were used, are you saying that you never used anybody and paid them for information?

MR DU TOIT: I can't say that I never paid an informer.  An occasional informer is compensated for the information when he gives you that information, that is the way I paid them.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mary, so you did use informers?

MR DU TOIT: Yes, yes on occasions, these were occasional informers.

MARY BURTON: Now in your years of making contact with the community you would have interacted with the various community leaders, can you tell us some of the people that you worked with?

MR DU TOIT: Yes.  It was my task, or I made it my business to have contact with all community leaders, to know them, to get to know them.  There was a Mr Ngqobongwana from Crossroads, he was the first one that I met.  There was a Mr Yamile, Mr Toyise, Mr Sepika, Mr Hosa, Mr Qwelisa, Mr Jerry Tutu, those are more-or-less the leaders that I can recall at the moment.

MARY BURTON: Now those are certainly names that we have heard in the last few days and that were very prominent in those years.  You have mentioned in an affidavit that you knew Mr Ngqobongwana well and were often in contact with him, did you have a good relationship with him?

MR DU TOIT: Yes Chairperson, as far as I am concerned I had a good relationship with him.  How could I put this now, I don't know whether the feeling was mutual, whether his feelings were very sincere towards me but my feelings towards him were sincere.  I am not quite so sure whether the feeling was mutual.

MARY BURTON: And would you say you had a closer relationship with him than with some of the other leaders that you've mentioned?

MR DU TOIT: I don't think I had a closer relationship with him. I had contact with all of them routinely.  Now Ngxobongwana was also absent for long periods of time, during 1985 especially, so I wouldn't say I had a close relationship with him in that time.
 From the time that Crossroads was upgraded, from that point onwards, I think I had a better understanding with him.  I think in the first years he was more reserved, as I said just now, I don't think he was as sincere in his relationship with me as I was towards him.

MARY BURTON: Now Mr Ngxobongwana was arrested on the 22nd of April 1985, could you describe the circumstances of that arrest?

MR DU TOIT: If I remember correctly Mr Ngxobongwana, now I can't remember the exact date, but he was arrested, this was at the beginning of 1985 in terms of security legislation and after four months, which takes us to April as you have just mentioned, after four months he was re-arrested on a criminal charge, I think it related to intimidation, and he was then in custody for a considerable time.