Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

ADV SANDI: Did you every buy him any food or asked anyone to go and buy him any food at the shop?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, that is quite possible.  During detention we often while we were driving around in the cars, or where we interrogated them, bought food for them and I am speculating now, but if he had been detained at Sanlam Building, well he was detained there, but if he had been there for a day or two or three, he would have had to eat and we would have either obtained food for him from the Old Mount Road police station or from the businesses in the area where we would have purchased food.
	I cannot remember personally, if I think back now, it is quite a strong possibility, but I can't remember that I personally bought food for him.

MR PHOSA: I understand you.  I understand you.  What you are saying is I may have bought him food, but I don't recall?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct sir.

MR PHOSA: But what I am trying to get at now is, whether by you and let's us remove you for the moment because you wouldn't admit that, but the possibility physically it was possible for anyone who wanted to poison Mr Mthimkhulu whilst in interrogation by using food as a medium to do so, it was possible?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR PHOSA: And the police had access to poison, poisonous stuff?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, yes, we heard about this at a later stage, but during 1981/1982 I did not know.  Well I even now don't know where I could go to to obtain poison.

MR PHOSA: I know that I am skipping the sequence, but just for the sake of this point, just let's jump to the later stage when they were being eliminated.
	What were they given to put them to rest, to make them asleep?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't know Your Honour.  Mr Nieuwoudt provided some substance, I am not sure whether it was a tablet or whatever.

MR PHOSA: Did he do this secretly, clandestinely, without you seeing it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No I don't think he did that clandestinely.  At that stage I just wasn't there.  I didn't see this happening.  If I can state this as follows, I can't recall seeing that.

MR PHOSA: Do you know that he did so, that he gave them something, a substance to make them sleep?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I believe he did, because they were sleeping.

MR PHOSA: But why must it be him who has done so if they were sleeping?  If they fell asleep, why do you say he must have been the one to have done so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: But, he was supposed to bring a substance to put them to sleep, and I accepted it.

MR PHOSA: How do you arrive at that conclusion, that he was supposed to do so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: In the planning we discussed it, General Van Rensburg instructed us, me in particular to look at this.  If we couldn't get hold of something to some extent to make them fall asleep, at least to tranquillise them to such an extent that it wouldn't be so bad to eliminate them then.

CHAIRPERSON: You are saying that Mr Van Rensburg in particular said that this should be done, is that what you've just said?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: When and where did Mr Van Rensburg say that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't remember in which office, but it was while him and I were discussing what we were going to do during the elimination.

MR PHOSA: Was that before you approached Mr Erasmus?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, it was after that.

MR PHOSA: Now, just say precisely what did he say, as far as you can remember, in that regard, Mr Van Rensburg?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That we had to think of sleeping tablets or something so that we could put them to sleep when we eliminated them.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told Mr Nieuwoudt that he was supposed to bring the substance?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I am not sure, it is possible that I had given him the instruction.

MR PHOSA: Did he tell you at any stage that he had now brought it?  I will tell you why I am asking this question, it seems to me that you were not prepared to approach these people unless they had been given this stuff, so did he say to you, safe now, let's go, I've got it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Are you referring to then?

MR PHOSA: No, then, did he at the time, before you went there, did he assure you I have now got the stuff, even before he used it, I've got the stuff?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I can't specifically remember that.  I would assume so, but I can't remember him specifically saying so.

MR PHOSA: Well, who made them take the stuff?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, I think Mr Nieuwoudt admitted to administering it.

MR PHOSA: Right.  I crossed this aspect, just as a way of indicating that the Police firstly could have had access to some form of poisoning, you answered that differently, but also that on another occasion, something that could be poisonous, could have been used.  Now let me go further.
	Do you accept that a substance that puts you to sleep, can well be poisonous?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I accept that.

MR PHOSA: Now, this was after, shortly after there had been civil proceedings or summons for, civil proceedings regarding poisoning, isn't that so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Phosa, just before you get to that, can I ask a question.  When Mr Nieuwoudt gave the report to you that he had given the two gentlemen the substance, the pills or whatever name you give it, did he say to you it was just easy for him to get them to take the stuff?  Was there no resistance from them?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I did not state that he told me that he had administered it to them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you made it clear, this is merely an assumption from the fact that he was the man who was told to bring it.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: Well, I want an answer from you, a positive answer on that.  Who administered that stuff?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I am stating once again, I am not sure, Mr Nieuwoudt states today that it was him and therefore I assume it was him who administered it.

MR PHOSA: Now, in view of the action the civil action that you just mentioned, did you think about the possibility that these tablets whatever it was, the substance, might just again or it might just poison the person now?  You see then you are denying it as far as you are concerned.
	Didn't you think look man, we might just walk into the position where we are now actually poisoning the person?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I didn't think of it that way, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: I want to talk about this later when I address the Committee.  Can I get your attitude now.  Do you see that if you didn't think about it, you were reckless?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Why would I have thought so Your Honour.  We wanted expressly to eliminate them?

MR PHOSA: I don't think you would have liked to poison them after there had been an allegation of poisoning, I don't think you would want to do that, would you?
	Didn't you mind if they died of poison?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, that never occurred in my mind.

MR PHOSA: Yes, that is why let's conclude this.  You can disagree with me, I say to you in the light of the background I have given to you, and I ask you this question because I want to deal with it later.
	In the light of the background the civil action, the mention of poison, your denial that you were involved in it, it was really reckless of you not to investigate what type of substance is going to be given to him and what type has been given to him that does knock him out.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I have no other comment to make to that.