Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

SISI KHAMPEPE: Make use of page 10 and tell us exactly which incidents we should be considering you for amnesty.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: The bombing of "Kitskonstabels" barracks in Mnisi Section.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: The bombing of the sewerage pipes in Sanwat Park.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Ambush on the "Kitskonstabels" and SAP in Motsamai Section.  Bombing of Benoni in Wimpy.  Bombing of the rail line and electrical sub-station next to Katlehong station.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: And lastly the whites only bus terminus in Germiston.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now you say that in the Katlehong "Kitskonstabels" attack your involvement was planning and distribution of ammunition.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I also included you know, providing support to the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of support?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: As my fellow applicants were attacking, I stood by in the car and I drove them after retreating.

CHAIRPERSON: So you drove the getaway car?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The sewerage pipes, what did you do there, how were you involved there?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I supplied the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: That is all?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I supplied the ammunition and I was part of the planning thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: The ambush on the "Kitskonstabels" at Mindela?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I have already answered that Honourable Judge, by saying that I provided support.  I drove the getaway car.
 	I also issued out ammunition in that respect.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

ADV MOTATA: But I need some clarity Chairperson, that my understanding when we started with the first incident, we have two here, the "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi Section and we have the "Kitskonstabels" in Motsamai Section.
	We want to know in respect of each, that is why we are enumerating them so that we get clarity.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: With respect to "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi Section, I personally together with my fellow applicant Alfas Mabore Ndlovu, executed that operation, I supplied the ammunition thereof and I took part in that incident.

ADV MOTATA: When you say you took part, what did you do?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I left a boobytrapped limpet mine.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Kebotlhale, I note that you have referred to a bombing of the Katlehong Police barracks, is that the same incident as the bombing of the "Kitskonstabels" in Mnisi Section?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: That is right, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that appears on page 13 of your further particulars?  Is that the same incident?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You dealt with the bombing of the Wimpy Bar.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Sorry, I didn't get that.

CHAIRPERSON: You have already dealt with the bombing of the Wimpy Bar.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the bombing of the railway line?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I have provided ammunition for the bombing of the railway line, and I took part in the planning thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: And the sub-station at Katlehong?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I took part in the planning and provided the ammunition thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: And the bus terminus?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I executed that operation myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, if I may just ask a question on the application.  Sir, I see in your application you are referring to attacks on Wimpy outlets, page 6.  Are you only referring to one Wimpy now or is it more than one?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No, it should read Wimpy outlet, not lets.

ADV STEENKAMP: And you are also referring to attacks on councillors?  Is this not now part of your list?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: The councillors feature in so far as the operation of our sub-Units were concerned, and I think my Commander has elaborated on the operations of those Units.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I was involved ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let me be quite fair to you, you are not making any application now in respect of attacks on Councillors or are you?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No, I am making that application in so far as our Unit helped in the execution of those.  In so far as our Unit planned the execution of those incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, as a panel we have a problem with that.  One cannot get or obtain amnesty for something one didn't to or one was unaware of.
	Now, you say that you are accepting liability for certain things that the sub-Units did.  We need a bit more, were you involved or not?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I was not personally involved in the executions of those actions.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not only talking about executions, we are talking about planning and in any way assisting in that operation.

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Judge, I would say that I did not plan those operations, but I took part in terms of distributing ammunition for the execution of those operations themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew for what purpose the ammunition was being distributed?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: For - yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are these Councillors and were they injured or did they die or did they loose property or what?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I think, I would not say for sure who the Councillors are, because we did not get you know, concise reports from Units and because of the lack of constant, given the conditions under which we operated, it was very difficult to get the concise reports.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are not in a position to tell us Councillor X was a victim of a particular operation?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: Yes, I am not in a position to tell that.

CHAIRPERSON: So therefore we don't know, neither do you know whether you are guilty of anything in respect of those Councillors?  It may never have taken place, not so?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: No, we know for a fact that our Units have carried out operations against Councillors.

CHAIRPERSON: On who?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: We have made mention, the Commander has made mention in our main submission, we mentioned the Basil February Unit which carried out attacks in Duduza and KwaThema.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we know where and perhaps we know when.  Who?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: That I don't know Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, the same page refers to handgrenade attacks or grenade attacks there.  Grenade, paragraph 9(iv), grenade attacks.  What was this because you said according to your initial list you are talking about limpet mines, but here you indicate in your application grenade attacks, ambushes and booby traps, but what about the grenade attacks, what was this?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I would indicate for sure that grenades were mostly used in attacks against Councillors.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you put a time frame on this, and where did this happen?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: That happened in 1988.

ADV STEENKAMP: And were anybody injured?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I am not sure.

ADV STEENKAMP: And of how many incidents are we talking here, one, two, three or four incidents?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: I would not strike a total recall as to how many of those, but it is more than one.

ADV STEENKAMP: Are you saying your whole Unit was involved in these attacks?

TEBOGO CHRISTOPHER KEBOTLHALE: In so far as I have indicated earlier on, with regard to the planning, with regard to the distribution of ammunition, issuing combat orders.