Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR CHASKALSON: Would this laboratory have utilised the restraint chair and the gas chamber that we heard about yesterday?

DR VAN RENSBURG: The restraint chair was normally in that laboratory, once of twice it was used elsewhere.  It's a fairly common procedure overseas, it's not one I've personally ever used or like using but for certain physiological experiments one needs to use it.
 The so-called gas chamber is really just a device where the animals in there, it's a normal cage and then you have an enclosure, it's very important for industrial applications.  We used to do it the - the Medical Research Council used similar devices, for instance the lining of air-conditioning ducts, if a fire gets in there, are the fumes toxic or not.
the animal to fumes and dusts and so forth.

MR CHASKALSON: Except in this case Doctor we seem to be talking about murder weapons.

DR VAN RENSBURG: That's right you can use the same device to check on say aerosols which have botulinum toxin or organic phosphate toxins whatever, you can use exactly the same techniques for those studies.

MR CHASKALSON: Were a large number of animals killed during this period?

DR VAN RENSBURG: A - moderate numbers were killed.  I would not say large.  We had a fairly strict code on handling these deaths.  Colonel Gaddafi's laboratory was discovered by the Americans because on their satellites they could see the wheelbarrows of dead dogs going to the incinerator.  So when ours went to the incinerator they were always in black plastic bags.  But animals were killed, many died, many were put out, but they were not large numbers, no.

MR CHASKALSON: Doctor this all sounds, in many ways, quite a harrowing work environment, was there any form of counselling that was offered within the organisation?

DR VAN RENSBURG: There were people who were troubled.  The administrative director Mr Sparmer arranged with a dominie who I think probably had security clearance to do counselling and some individuals did make use of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the sum total of counselling, dominie?

DR VAN RENSBURG: As far as I know that's as far as it went.  I don't think anybody ever needed to see a psychologist or psychiatrist.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Mr Chaskalson.

MR CHASKALSON: Can we discuss the Surgeon-General's role in this.  Did you at - you talked about earlier on that in a sense you felt trapped, in a sense you had a moral dilemma, did you in any way try and bring some of your concerns, the abuse of funds, possibly some of the practices that were going on to the attention of other people?

DR VAN RENSBURG: In the course of time we went to see the auditors.  I saw the Surgeon-General, I went to the Auditor-General.  Much later I had written to the Minister of Justice.  I've written to General George Meiring.  He wasn't interested.  I've been to OSEO.  I've been to the Attorney General.  I don't now what else to do.
 The initial manoeuvre was to go and see our own auditors.

MR CHASKALSON: When would that have been?

DR VAN RENSBURG: That was early in 1991.

MR CHASKALSON: And what happened?

DR VAN RENSBURG: I went together with my two co-directors, Immelman and Sparmer.  Following a meeting with Swanepoel, Swanepoel announced to the directors that he had bought the company with his own money and his own guarantees he had furnished, and he had done this through the profitability of the many companies he'd owned and so on and so on.  So after the meeting we looked at each other in great disbelief.  We agreed this wasn't possible.  We told him so.  He invited us to see the auditors, which we did.  I went to Piet Theron's office in Johannesburg at Coopers and Lybrandt.  We told him the story.  He said that Wynand Swanepoel had lied to us.  He had not put down one cent and he would not put down one cent, but he had acquired the company, yes.  The so-called nominal amounts that they had to pay it was written off always against the staff loan account, they never really paid that. So we said well how come, you can't give away taxpayers money.  No he says it's been approved at a very, very high level.

MR CHASKALSON: Did he indicate what level that was?

DR VAN RENSBURG: He didn't particularly say.  Later on the Auditor-General told me it was the Ministerial level.  It was Minister Magnus Malan, and it was confirmed by a rather ill du Plessis at that time, Minister of Finance.
 At the same meeting with this auditor I reported a cheque of, it was either 15 or R25 000, I can't remember, a personal cheque made out to Dr Wynand Swanepoel from the company Protechnic.  Now our Security Officer, a Colonel Jackson ...(intervention)

MR CHASKALSON: Sorry, was that abnormal?

DR VAN RENSBURG: I personally didn't see the cheque - yes it would be abnormal.  Colonel Jackson said, Protechnic is a hundred percent front company, so is this, he is worried why Swanepoel should have such a cheque in his possession.  So I said well as director we have the statutes, it's our job to watch each other so I reported this to the auditor.  He said it's impossible, he knows Protechnic, he should not have such a cheque, but anyway he would look into it.  That's the last I heard of it.  It wasn't long after that the Security man was fired.
 Nevertheless the auditor Piet Theron said to me that he is exceedingly nervous about us rocking the boat.  That's all it had amounted to.  He was exceedingly nervous that there'd be exposure and his company would suffer severely if an ANC government knew that they were auditing these companies and he instructed me to ignore my statutory duties, in fact to contravene the Companies Act, and not to question anything that Wynand Swanepoel or anyone else, and to blindly follow in support everything they did in the financial field. That was the meeting with the auditor.
 Later some of these things were pointed out at a meeting with the Auditor-General in General Knobel's office.  The way this meeting was set up was rather strange.  I had to write great letters of apology to Dr Wynand Swanepoel that he'd never abused any money and his behaviour was unquestionable and so on and so on and so on, and he said or he would report me to the Surgeon-General.  So I said well I think just maybe you report me to the Surgeon General.

MR CHASKALSON: Sorry you are saying you were requested to sign a letter or write a letter which said that Dr Swanepoel had not stolen money?

DR VAN RENSBURG: Right.

MR CHASKALSON: Had you - okay carry on.

DR VAN RENSBURG: Or abused funds or done anything wrong.  So I said no I would see the Surgeon-General and the - they sent along - we talked about it too, I said I don't accept what our own auditor does, what does the Auditor-General think?  So they sent along the Auditor-General as well.  A man van Heerden, who was the 2 I/C of Ronsley at the time.  We told him what happened and he confirmed there was Ministerial approval.  This is all the way these companies were given away, has all been set out in a document written by General Knobel that I have here.
 The Auditor-General's office said they would take the matter further if I could get proof of abuses and make affidavits and so on.  They themselves were not prepared to investigate any of the alleged irregularities, which of course was an unreasonable request.

MR CHASKALSON: Now as I understand the line function of this project from your company Dr Basson was the project officer and presumably you could not take your concerns there, did you ever raise any of your concerns with Dr Basson?