Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-09

CHAIRPERSON: So it means that we're going to ask the briefers to lead forward Magdeline Nelane who is going to be our first witness today.
EXCHANGE OF GREETINGS BETWEEN CHAIRMAN AND WITNESS

CHAIRPERSON: Margaret, we are please that you have come forward to tell your story about what happened to Moses ... (inaudible) ... Moshane but before you do that we would ask you to stand and take an oath that what you're going to say here is true, God being your helper.

MAGDELINE NELANE: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: And the person who is going to be helping you when you tell your story is Professor Simangele Magwaza ... (inaudible).

PROF MAGWAZA: Good morning, Mama Nelane.

WITNESS:   Good morning.

PROF MAGWAZA: Thank you very much for coming over here today.  We really appreciate the effort and we hope that sharing the experience with us will also be help you in a way because some of the experience are the burdens that become easier if you share them with other people.  Mama Nelane, I would like firstly to tell me more about your son.  Just about your son.  How old he was, what standard of education, his interest in politics and any other information you want to give us.

WITNESS:   My child had 11 years.  He was born in 1978 on the 6th of June.  He was attending school at Ndumeleng primary school.  He was interested in politics.

PROF MAGWAZA: You say he was interested in politics.  What did he do?

WITNESS:   Usually when a big crowd was passing he used  /to join

PROF MAGWAZA: to join them to sing these Comrades' songs with them.

PROF MAGWAZA: He was very young.  Did he belong to any organisation?

WITNESS:   He was not yet a member of a political party but all the time he was looking for an ANC shirt.

PROF MAGWAZA: In your family, was there anybody else who also belonged to a party or who was interested in politics?

WITNESS:   My eldest son was interested in politics.

PROF MAGWAZA: What about you?

WITNESS:   And myself also, I'm a card-carrying member of the ANC.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay, thank you.  Can you tell us more about the family, your family?  How many children do you have?  Do you have a husband?

WITNESS:   I have three children.  Moses Pagwe is the second one.  The two remaining are still alive.  My husband left me when these kids were still young.

PROF MAGWAZA: And how old are your kids, the two children you have?

WITNESS:   The smallest one was born in 1981 and the elder one was born in 1974.

PROF MAGWAZA: Are they going to school?

WITNESS:   The young one is doing Standard 6 and the elder one was doing Standard 7 and because of the problems I have he began to look for work but he couldn't find one.

PROF MAGWAZA: Are you working?

WITNESS:   I only do temporary work.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay, thank you.  Mama Nelane, I would like you to tell us as much as you can remember about that fateful day.  You probably could start by telling us what was happening at that time.

WITNESS:   In 1990 on the 12th of March I was at work.  The person who was working in the garden told me that he was going to the shop.  When he came back from the restaurant he told me that children  were shot in the location.  By so saying I was conscious and I was shivering.  Then I went inside my employer's house and I phoned her and I told her that in the location people are shot.  Then I went to look as to whether my children were not involved.  Then other people were telling me that my children are very small but I told them that I'm shivering because I told them that I want to look around what is happening.  Then the told me to ... (incomplete)  She arrived to pick me up.  I began to look at home then I found my younger sister,  When I looked into the eyes to ask her, "Where are the children?" then she began to cry.  Then I ran to where I was renting at 219.  When I arrived there the small boy told me that Pagwe is shot.  Then I went to my neighbour.  Then I made a telephone to my employer.  Then she told me that, "Cars are not moving out.  How are you going to do?"  Then I told her that I would walk to the police station to find out as to whether my child is shot.  Then I moved to the road then my employer said she would come and pick me up to take me to the police station.  My neighbour followed me.  Then we went to the police station.  When we arrived at the police station I was not able to enter in and my neighbours went in and they found that it was true that my son is shot.

PROF MAGWAZA: Can you remember as to what was happening?  Why was your son shot?  What was happening on that day?

WITNESS:   Even earlier on the 12th of March I was at work there was fighting in the township.

PROF MAGWAZA: Who was fighting?

WITNESS:   Children were fighting.  The whole place was full of children on the streets.

PROF MAGWAZA: According to your statement people were celebrating  /the release

PROF MAGWAZA: the release of Nelson Mandela.  Is it true?

WITNESS:   I don't remember well because at the moment people had ben in the bottle store and they were throwing stones.

PROF MAGWAZA: Were the police - the police were shooting at people who were burning the buildings or were shooting the people who were celebrating the release of Mandela?

WITNESS:  At that moment it was on the 12th but I'm not sure as whether people were shooting because for the celebration of Mandela or what but because I was at work.

PROF MAGWAZA: Ja, it's a sad story.  Your son was very, very young.  It's quite a very unusual situation for such a young person to be shot and killed for political reasons.  I would like to clarify a few questions.  According to your statement you were told, you said, by a garden boy working with you that your son and two others has been killed.  Were you told by him or did you find out yourself?

WITNESS:   He didn't know that it's my child who was shot.  The gardener just said children were shot in the location.  I found out exactly that my son was shot in the location.

PROF MAGWAZA: According to the information here is that it was your son Pagwe and two others who were killed.  Do you know the identity of the two other boys who were killed?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.  The other one is a son to Mr Modibe.  I don't remember the other one.

PROF MAGWAZA: Do you know the name of Mr Modibe's son?  What was his name?

WITNESS:   The name is Tabelo.

PROF MAGWAZA: The other one you don't know?

WITNESS:   I don't remember the other one.

PROF MAGWAZA: Your previous employer took you to the mortuary.   Is your employer still around?  Are you still working for him?

WITNESS:   No, she went to Secunda.

PROF MAGWAZA: You also say that the Comrades took your son's body to another mortuary.  When was he removed to another mortuary?  Why was the body removed from the Holdveld(?) mortuary to this other funeral service?

WITNESS:   They said they don't want a white-owned mortuary.

PROF MAGWAZA: These Comrades were quite helpful but you do indicate that they promised to investigate your son's death but you have never had anything from them.  Do you know who these Comrades are?  Do you still see them or are they still around?

WITNESS:   The one who was calling us to the church was Fax Maigiso.  He's the one who told us papers were sent.

PROF MAGWAZA: What papers?

WITNESS:   I don't know which papers - documents, but he said he'll be responsible because he's waiting for documents.

PROF MAGWAZA: Have you ever seen him since that day?

WITNESS:   No, Ma'am.  It seems he's around ... (inaudible) ... village but I'm not sure.

PROF MAGWAZA: You have not received your son's death certificate, is it true?