Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-14

CHAIRPERSON: Joe, can you make sure that Mrs Gumede is receiving the Zulu translation?  Could you repeat your question, Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Zandile, when he spoke earlier on, talked about  - I don't know if I am perhaps putting it too strongly - the ill-feeling amongst the families towards him. Because all your brothers had left with him on that particular day.  He had survived and your brothers did not.  He came forward today to put his side of what had happened.  We are also finding out now, of the role that the Third Force, what is referred to as Third Force, the Vlakplaas units - Mr Mamasela's name has been mentioned, and the role they played in many instances in killing young people.  Would you like to comment on both what I have said about the Vlakplaas people and about Zandile.

UNKNOWN: That was very painful, because it was Zandile who came to fetch my brother.  It was not nice. My parents told themselves that Zandile is the one who knows everything.

CHAIRPERSON: But now as you heard the tales of this incident, because we see in your statement that it was the first time this year that you heard from the SABC people to hear what happened regarding them.

UNKNOWN: As we appeared before the Truth Commission, we are happy because we know that Zandile opened his mouth rather than keeping quiet.  At least now we are going to be satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to ask Mrs Selebi to answer Dr Randera's question.

UNKNOWN: My own feelings towards Zandile, I did not know KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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Zandile, even after the death of my brother I did not know him and even Nginosh and (indistinct), I didn't know them.  Even their relatives I didn't know.  But I used to hear about Zandile.  Because I hated him after the incident, telling myself that he is the one who is responsible for taking my brother and giving him to the people to kill him, I didn't want to have anything to do with his family, because I hated them. I met Zandile in April this year, after Reggie Morobe came from SABC to tell me about this case.  All along I was in the dark, it was a hardness that I felt in my heart.  
 One day Zandile came to me and knocked on my door and said he wanted to see me. Then he said I am Zandile.  I asked him what are you doing in my house, because I don't know you and if it was not for him my younger brother could be alive today.  He said I want to apologise to you, and in fact, Reggie came to me and then they want to meet all of us, to give them our statements.  They wanted me to sit down with Zandile and listen to his story.  He came and told me everything that happened.  Reggie Morobe from the SABC, when they came to get the story, because they told me the people responsible for my younger brother's death are still alive.  I said to him Reggie, I don't know those people and I don't even want to know them, because I am so bitter, I feel that if I had a gun I would kill them, if they had to enter by the door.  Those are my feelings, but after listening to Zandile's story and hearing the whole story, I have forgiven him. I even feel pity for him, because of what he has suffered and experienced.  After that incident, I feel pity for him. I talked to him and I said Zandile, I was blaming you but I do not blame you anymore, and I take you now as my KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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own brother. I have forgiven Zandile.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Mr Selebi.  We will ask Mrs Lebakeng to reply to Dr Randera's question.

MRS LEBAKENG: I never hated Zandile because I used to telephone Zandile and he told me that the one thing that I will tell you one day you will never believe.  We treated Zandile as a family friend. We would leave Zandile and Ntsingo in the house and they would clean the house and everything would be in order, because we treated him as one of our children.  After some time we had some doubts that how can Zandile succeed and out of the four three died and he survived.  We wished to see this place where the children died so as to see how did Zandile survive. I love Zandile. I take him as my brother, because he was very brave to come and tell us everything.  He took us to that same place where these children died.  You can imagine, if you can hate Zandile after that terrible experience. You can ask yourself what is the reason to hate Zandile?  But my question about Mamasela is that he is an adult and these children were very young.  Secondly, funnily enough, the other one is a reverend. He is preaching to his congregation. What is he preaching to his congregation if he can kill children. Those are the only things I want to know.  That is the end of my question.

CHAIRPERSON: I thank you all. I would ask Piet Meiring if he has any questions.

PROF MEIRING: May I ask only one question, and that is did any of the three families receive any compensation for what happened to their three boys?

UNKNOWN: I don't understand your question.

PROF MEIRING: The question is:  after everything that
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happened, there was an investigation, there was that lady who helped you to go to court. Did any of you receive money, compensation for the deaths of the young men?

UNKNOWN: Nothing. Nothing until today.  Nothing.

PROF MEIRING: It applies to the other two families as well?

MRS LEBAKENG: There was nothing.

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Gumede also, there was no compensation.

UNKNOWN: There was no compensation.

THOMAS MANTHATA: My question is, how was the funeral of these children?  Did you bury them in one day in one service or did you bury them separately?

UNKNOWN: They were buried on the same day, the three of them were buried on the same day and they are in one place.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Were they buried by one Minister, was one Minister officiating?

UNKNOWN: Yes, father Bantam was officiating at the funeral service, the Minister of the Roman Catholic Church.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thanks. Is there a way where you can meet and so that you can remember them?   As Zandile said, today as we are, we ask the whole house to remember these children who died this tragic death.

UNKNOWN: We didn't meet before together with other families.  We met for the first time this year and then Fanjana and Ntshinga's families I only met this week, on Tuesday. It was the first time I met other family members.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I see from your request that you have one request, all of you, that there should be tombstones for these three children.  I understand that they might be in one cemetry. Is there a way where only one tombstone could be put up for all of them?

UNKNOWN: We thought that way because they are in one
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cemetry and in one area, all of them.

PROF MEIRING: I am so sorry, I forgot to ask one question.  Zandile said that he would like the TRC to mediate, to see if a meeting could be arranged between the families and him.  Would you like us to involve ourselves with such a meeting?

MRS LEBAKENG: Yes, we would want it that way.