Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

YASMINE SOOKA: Would Sipho Moses Mbaqa first stand please - can you hear me now?

MR MBAQA: I can hear you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Okay, we'd like to welcome both of you here, we are very happy  that you have taken the trouble to come and give your testimony.  As is usual in these cases we will ask you first to take the oath and then we will hand you over to Commissioner Ntsebeza on my left hand side who will assist  you with your testimony.

ADV POTGIETER: Sipho, will you please stand first so that you can take the oath?
SIPHO MOSES MBAQA Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much, you can be seated.

YASMINE SOOKA: Are you able to hear?

MR MBAQA: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Are you sure - okay Commissioner Ntsebeza will now assist you to lead your evidence.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Good afternoon, I will start by speaking to Sipho.  Who is Sipho?

MR MBAQA: It's me.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you - let's start by asking you to give us a background about yourself.  Where were you born, your upbringing and did you attend any school - if so where and were you ever employed, if so where were you employed.
I would like you to take only three minutes to give us the details in connection with your background and then we will start to get into the core of the matter.   Are you going to speak Xhosa?

MR MBAQA: No I am going to speak English.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Oh! okay - you can go.

MR MBAQA: Yes I am Sipho Moses Mbaqa.  I come from a family of five brothers  - I come from a family of five brothers and one sister and I am the third one.  I was born here in Kimberley - I grew up here and I went to school here like everybody  and throughout the turbulent years as everybody knows that we never really had a proper schooling although we would talk about  schooling  because of boycotts year in and year out.
So and I went up to Matric - I went up to Matric and after that I didn't do anything.  I then began to work for the ANC  Youth League from 19 - in fact much earlier I started to work for the - proper I started to work for the South African Youth Congress earlier, in fact  I had been - I started to work for the South African Youth Congress but then I started to work for the ANC Youth League  sometime in 1992.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could we ask that you move in quite and as quickly as possible because you are interfering with the witnesses ability to give his testimony clearly.  Could we have silence please.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Ja just before we go on are you comfortable with English or would you wish to speak in another language?

MR MBAQA: No - no I am very comfortable.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Oh! ja - okay - I would  like a witness to testify in a language he is best able to give his testimony - if you comfortable it seems okay.

MR MBAQA: Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA: So you were still saying that you were working for the ANC Youth League.

MR MBAQA: Yes and - but now then I had been in the Youth Leaguer for - for many years despite that -  even before the ANC was un-banned I was a Youth League until those times when the ANC was un-banned I was there all the time until of course I was arrested for this murder and convicted.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Right, let's now come to the 25th of May 1993, which is - which I think you will never forget in your life.

MR MBAQA: No certainly not.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Ja, can you just  tell us briefly the events of that day as you recall them before we get on to what happened to you  thereafter.

MR MBAQA: Ja on that day - the 25th May 1993 - we -  we had a march.  We  had organised the march in reaction to it - to events that had taken place a week or two or even three weeks earlier at the University of Bophuthatswana as it was referred to then,  Where the police had assaulted students there because during that time that region, it used to be part of our region.  Therefore in my responsibility  end of Tape 2, Side B ... sort of areas as well.
So when the students were assaulted there on that day, one of whom is a fairly prominent person by the name of Soliboka, he was there involved also there - he was  assaulted on that day.
So we organised that march on that day to the Bop Consulate here in Kimberley to actually protest what had happened to those students on that particular day.  And that, that  was the purpose of that march among the other things.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Yes, if you will just carry on and relate events of that day, so there was this march it  was progressing, what happened.

MR MBAQA: Okay, on - on the morning of that day we prepared you know the memoranda's.  It was me, and the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League and I think two other officials who were there and we were preparing those memoranda's to hand over.  And we did that, that morning.
So while we were about to leave, then came Lawrence - Lawrence then - Lawrence was then the Commander of MK in the region.  He then came there in the office and he came to see me - to inquire about a agreement he had left with me.  I then told him no - it is here you can - you can he can have it.  He then say to me no, because you can see I have - don't have anywhere to put it, I have these tight pants.  Can you make me a favour and come with it to the township and then I will take it there and go and put it away.
So because I wanted to get this thing away from me it was his anyway and I was anxious to get it away from me because he had left it with me about three -  four weeks ago and I had been pestering him to come and take this thing of his.  So he then came back  [indistinct] to come and take it,  so I made him the favour and I took that thing and I of course placed it beside my bag and I left with the Chairperson of the ANC Youth League and another chap of the Kimberley Civic Association, they call him Vernon Patrick and another comrade of the civic also is Lionel Jacobs and Mafu Davids who was the publicity  secretary of the ANC Youth League during that time.
But then when Lawrence came and we had these discussions about this grenade of his, these other people of course they were not aware of what we were actually talking about.  So even when I put this grenade in my bag and I left with it in Lionel's car they did not know I had something like that.
So we then went out - we  drove with the car - with Lionel's car it was a white Skyline.  We then drove to - to the township to where the said march was supposed to commence, to start from.  But then unfortunately we were a little - we were a little bit too late so we instead found the march had moved from where it was supposed to start.
We met the march along the way - then we came there we stopped and then we joined the march at that point and Lawrence was also there by then.  So I then went up to him and he said no obviously you can't give me that thing here in public.  Could you just carry it when we come in town I'll take it and then I'll put it away by the office or in his car, that was what he said.  But then it made sense also to me that I could not give him that type of thing in public.
We then joined the march and this grenade was still in my bag and it did happen that when we reached the town somewhere in town here, he did come to me and said well bring me - bring me this thing - he took it [intervention]

ADV NTSEBEZA: Just to clarify something there.  When you say when you were in town, was it in the process of the march.

MR MBAQA: Yes certainly it was in the process.

ADV NTSEBEZA: When he said just let me have that thing.

MR MBAQA: Yes that correct, that's right.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Okay, and Lawrence - Lawrence who - do you know who - his other  name?

MR MBAQA: Yes, it's Lawrence Mbatha.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Mbatha.

MR MBAQA: Yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Okay.