Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm saying that is how I recall it, I recall that I was at home at that stage.  That is what I vaguely recollect.

MR PHOSA: Maybe perhaps you missed my point - I am deliberately this, I understand ...[inaudible] your question, what I want on record and I would like to say it before - at a later stage, is that as important as this occasion - we must understand, is to you, you don't as a matter of fact know where you were when you got the report, you don't.  I mean - not think, you don't ...[inaudible]

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Sorry?

MR PHOSA: You don't know where you were when you received the report?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I stand by what I said, that is as far as I can remember otherwise I could have told you I was sitting in my office.  What I can remember is that at that stage I was at home - that is as I remember it.

MR PHOSA: And now I'll tell you what I understand that you mean.  As far as I, Erasmus can remember, I think I was at home.  It may well be that I was elsewhere but I think I was at home.  Am I rendering your reply correctly?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I come in here.  I certainly don't want to seem to be overprotective of the witness - he can fend for himself, but we asked specifically on what ground Mr Phosa intended opposing the application for amnesty of Mr Erasmus and he pointed out to you quite categorically, that it will be his submission to you that the incident was not perpetrated with a political objective.  Now what he's doing now is - with great respect, wasting time on whether the witness remembers where he was and at a time when he receives a report which he admits he received.
	How is the question as to where he received the report relevant Mr Chairman?  We would ask to - whether he committed the act with a political objective or not.  With great respect Mr Chairman, he's not testing the credibility of the witness, he's attempting to establish something which is of total irrelevance to this enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: Well speaking for myself, I can't see the relevance that somebody can't remember where he was 15 years ago.

MR PHOSA: Am I being allowed to explain why or to ask the question?

CHAIRPERSON: You can explain why Mr Phosa, he's told you - as far as he can recollect, he was at home but he's not sure.  What more do you want from the man?

MR PHOSA: Actually now what your - what Mr Chairman says is not the same as the objection.  I thought I was going to deal with the objection which was: "Why do I want to know that" but what Mr Chairman is saying is the answer I wanted to ascertain, I wanted to ascertain exactly that.  And I said to him: "I understand him as your" - Mr Chairman says that he only thinks that he was at home but he can't be sure.  I wanted clarity on that.  Now the question was, I shouldn't have asked that question.
	Now I don't know which to answer because if the answer is exactly what Mr Chairman says, that's what I wanted clarity on, there's nothing wrong with that.  I wanted to know whether his answer is exactly as you say Mr Chairman: "Yes, as far as I'm concerned I think I was at home, but it can well be that I wasn't at home" - because I was going to deal with that later.  Is that your answer Sir?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Chairperson, I believe that I was at home and why I'm saying that is that Mr van Rensburg and myself lived close to each other and I think he made the report back to me and that is I think how it happened - I think I was at home.

MR PHOSA: Now when Mr van Rensburg gave the report - if it was Mr van Rensburg as we think who gave the report to you, did he give you the details of where the people eliminated and how they were eliminated?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm sure that he told me that the people had been killed and that the bodies were disposed of and it is very possible that he told me that this operation had been carried out near Cradock.

MR PHOSA: Just a small digression - not small to the persons concerned, where you told what happened to the car, to Mr Madaka's car?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I think initially at our discussions we decided that this operation should be made to look as if the two deceased had left the country, so I believe that they would have told me that the car had been left near the border.

MR PHOSA: You might want to know why I ask that question, I was approached by the family today to just say: "Could you Mr PHOSA, ascertain where the car is, it is something that could still be of use to us".  You don't know where it is, do you?  You don't know where the car is?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, no I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: On this point I think I have read somewhere that it was found some days later by the Transkei police, haven't I?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, that's why I'm saying I don't know where the car is now.

CHAIRPERSON: The Transkei police took it, did they?

MR VISSER: We can't be of any assistance there Mr Chairman, it does appear that that's the last word on the car - is when the Transkei police took control of it.

MR PHOSA: Now whether the report was given by Mr van Rensburg or not - just one more time, at that stage did you reflect upon the wisdom or otherwise of now reporting to some senior policeman that it had happened?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I did not consider it.

MR PHOSA: Just a matter of fact, was it physically possible for  you to report it, in other words if you had wanted to you could have done that

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, it was physically possible.

MR PHOSA: I gain the impression - now please correct me if it's wrong, when you were reporting about what used to be said at these discussions, when you talk about the turning point, sorry - when you were talking about these various meeting - covert meetings, that you of the Eastern Cape - that is the P.E. branch, were accused of letting down the rest of the country, in other words you were not putting your acts together.  Did I understand that correctly?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I don't think that that was the impression that I got, that I was actually letting down the rest of the country.  The fact of the matter was that here in P.E. was where the flash-point was - the problems were here.

MR PHOSA: May the Committee just bear with me, I want to check on this because I think that is the position as I understood it.

ADV DE JAGER: Was the situation in the Eastern Cape discussed as should it be a situation to be out of control?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is so Chairperson, the situation was very bad.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there any decisions or statements from a higher level, from Parliament or the Minister that you should be doing something to get it under it control?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman yes, the pressure from the top, from the Ministers through the head of security were extremely high - this situation should be solved, stronger action should be taken.  This was because of what was happening here in the Eastern Cape.

ADV DE JAGER: Was the defence force also involved at this stage?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, the defence force was involved.

ADV DE JAGER: Why were they involved, what was given as the reason for their involvement?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, the defence force had a big component here in the Eastern Cape - they were not brought in, they were here at that stage but the co-operation was there, they had to assist us because the South African police were a few members and because of long hours the people were tired and everybody who could assist us had to help.

ADV DE JAGER: Would the police have been able to cope without the assistance of the defence force?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: At that stage I would say no.