Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

CHAIRPERSON: They didn't have any weapons they were flourishing at the time, they were merely swearing at you when you were trying to get onto a taxi, and you couldn't recognise people you had grown up with, is that what you would have us believe?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Like I said before, I only recognised one, the one who grabbed my T-shirt.  That is the only one I've noticed.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you arrive back and you see another group of people and you don't recognise any of them as being people you'd seen earlier that day.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I know them very well of course, but at the time I didn't take notice if it was the similar group, but I believed it was a similar group.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't take notice, but you were prepared to kill.  Is that what you say?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your affidavit that you've been referred to, you said you couldn't remember well because you were much too angry at them.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: As I have explained the situation, it wasn't easy for me to recognise or to notice as to this is so and so and this is so and so, all I noticed is that it was a group.

CHAIRPERSON: And on that basis you killed.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, what I've done was shooting at them, even though it wasn't my aim, but it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you now say it wasn't your aim, you took this young man, dragged him along with you as a shield to get close to them, and then having just said: "Yes, men", you opened fire on them.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: If I'm saying it wasn't my aim, I mean that on that day when I woke up I didn't plan to shoot anyone, but they swore at me, they insulted me.  It wasn't my aim, but I was forced or the situation actually forced me to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because they swore at you and insulted you and you lost your temper.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: You see, even on your own version by the time you got back to your area and until the time you shot them, you had enough time to work out your plan, to grab somebody to use as a shield, to calmly walk over to them and to shoot them.  Now that's not the actions of someone who's just lost his temper.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I don't know if that's a question.

MR LAX: I'm asking you to comment on what I've just said to you.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I'm saying it wasn't my aim, but the situation and what they've done to me on that day pushed me to do that.  I decided there and there that if I grab this young boy and make him, or use him as my shield, I was going to attack them easily because I thought if they see me first they were not going to shoot at me since I had a young boy with me.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I don't have any further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mzobe, I couldn't understand what happened from the time you alighted at Baboi when this group swore at you and the time when you got hold of the young boy and returned to the group without noticing you.  Can you please fill us in there?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I can clarify this.

MR SIBANYONI: Please do.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: After they followed me up to Baboi, I was nearby a certain school called Sister Jones.  I turned there.  I decided that I wanted to go to them, but I didn't want them to recognise or to notice me from far.  I wanted them to see me when I was right in front of them.
	I used another route which passed the church.  There's a gravel road near the church.  I met two women and I met a boy, who was very young, and I grabbed this boy and I told the boy to come with me.  I went straight to them now.  I only released the boy immediately after I was in front of these men and I said: "Yes, men".  When they got scared, that's when I started shooting at them.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying that although this group was following you from town, after you have alighted at Baboi they swore at you and let you disappear from their sight and thereafter they went to the tree where you found them?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I don't know how I can clarify this.  I wish you see the picture of the place.  There are things and buildings or trees which can make it impossible for one to see.  They only saw me from far and they didn't understand how come I appeared right in front of them.  I don't know how I can give you the full picture of the area, because I can actually show you this is the route I used in order for them not to see me, or notice me.

CHAIRPERSON: But they saw you and noticed you.  You've told us time and again, when you arrived they started swearing at you again.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, they did see me.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't want to go home because they might follow you and kill people, you decided to face them there and then.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But somehow you then managed to disappear from their sight, go past the school, grab the young boy as a shield, return by the gravel road and suddenly appeared in front of them.  And that is what my colleague is asking you about, how did this happen?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I was far from them when they were swearing at me, that's why they didn't know that I was going away or I was going to come back.  I decided not to go away.  I was using the school as my shield.  I was coming back, using the other route, coming back to them.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words, they were no longer following you?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: They were shouting, swearing at me.  They were standing at the road.

MR SIBANYONI: Now to get the picture clear, when you arrived at this group under the tree, Khambule, whom you saw in town, was not amongst them, is that correct?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I didn't take notice whether he was still there or not.

MR SIBANYONI: But you didn't see him there?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: No, I didn't see him there.  It was difficult for me to look at faces, it was difficult.

MR SIBANYONI: And Brian Bazely tried to disarm you and it would appear he was not armed himself.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, he tried, but I cannot say whether he was armed or not, but he did try to disarm me.

MR SIBANYONI: You didn't see any weapon in his possession?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: No, I didn't.  He didn't have anything in his hands.

MR SIBANYONI: Neither was Samuel Njabulo Ndovela having any weapon in his hands?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: No, I didn't see anything in his hands.

MR SIBANYONI: Why did you evade the police and also lie to them when they asked you whether you knew any person with the name of Tobela, I mean with the name of Thulebona, in other words your name, why didn't you say at the same time these people swore at you in town, they threaten to kill you and you are afraid that if you go home they will follow you and kill you at home, you decided to stand your ground?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: The reason I didn't tell the soldiers the truth, I knew that they were going to arrest me.  It was difficult for me to tell them that I am the one who shot people because I knew that they were going to arrest me.  They were looking for me because they wanted to arrest me and I was scared.

MR SIBANYONI: What do you say to what I'm going to ask you now?  It would appear as if there was an ANC group which swore at you in town, at Post Shepstone, and prevented you to proceed with your trip, you became angry and when you arrived at Baboi, you knew which area was occupied by the ANC people and you decided to attack the group you saw under the tree, irrespective of whether they were ANC or not and irrespective of whether they were people who swore at you at Port Shepstone.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I do understand that, but what I'm saying is what I believed at the time.  What I've already told you is what happened and what I personally know.