Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-17

MR MALAN: Mr Du Preez, I asked you how you found out and you initially told me that it was from the discussion of three of your colleagues, and later you said that it was generally known.
	Who told you that the decision had been taken to kill her, where did this come from?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I can't recall Mr Chairperson, it is something which was left unsaid.

MR MALAN: May I put it to you like this, initially you very clearly told us that you thought that the chances were favourable that she could be an informer.
	Your first contact was the interrogation at Pietermaritzburg, direct contact with her in the form of a discussion?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: You said at that stage you knew she was going to be killed.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The stage during which I questioned Ndwandwe, was after Botha had completed his interrogation of her.

MR MALAN: Were you present during Botha's interrogation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No.

MR MALAN: On what grounds did you know that she was not suitable?  Or in another sense, why didn't you try to formulate your own opinion?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, I think Mr Botha was primarily responsible or would have been primarily responsible for the recruitment of this person.
	It was clear that he had not succeeded.

MR MALAN: Why?  Why was it clear?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Through Ms Ndwandwe's attitude.

MR MALAN: What was her attitude?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, I was not involved with her interrogation until that point.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, perhaps you are misunderstanding me.  You have told us that it was clear that Botha had not been successful.
	Then I asked you upon which grounds, and you said on the grounds of her attitude.  Now I would like to know on what grounds it was clear to you that he had not succeeded?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: From Botha's attitude.  The fact that Botha said that she cannot be recruited.

MR MALAN: When did Botha say this to you?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I can't recall that Botha specifically said this to me, I deduced this from discussions between Botha, Taylor and Steyn, that she would not be recruited.

MR MALAN: Where did you hear those discussions?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: At the house.

MR MALAN: Were you present during the discussions?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, I was present at some of the discussions.  Mr Chairperson, these things were not said in one sentence.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Du Preez, let us just discuss this.  I think that you and Commissioner Malan are on two different wave lengths, let me just put it to you like this.  You were interrogating her, for what reason, for what objective?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I had a dossier which was out of date, and I was looking for names of people who had committed acts of terrorism.

MR VISSER: By the way, now that you mention it, did you obtain any information from her which was of assistance to you?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you recall today exactly what that was?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was about the Radjo case, that was one aspect of the information.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Did you interrogate her with the purpose of recruiting her as an informer?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Negative.

MR VISSER: Whose duty was that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That was Botha's duty.

MR VISSER: And you said that afterwards there was a discussion between Botha, Steyn and Taylor.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Which you heard?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you deduced from that discussion that it was Botha's view that she was not recruitable?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Later you received an order?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: From whom?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: From Taylor.

MR VISSER: And what did this order entail?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was that Wasserman and I were to dig a grave and that we were to eliminate Ndwandwe.

MR VISSER: Did you then carry out this order?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Before we arrived at this point, were there any other people on this farm, on that particular day who interrogated Ndwandwe?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was that Labuschagne and Verwey?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I can only remember Labuschagne.

MR VISSER: Sorry?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I can only remember Labuschagne.

MR VISSER: Were you present during their interrogation, Labuschagne's interrogation of Ndwandwe?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now we are back at the point where we were a few moments ago, where you were to go and dig the grave.  What happened next?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We dug the grave.  Wasserman and I told Ndwandwe told her that we were going to take her away to another place.

MR VISSER: Did you tell her where to or did you just tell her that you were taking her elsewhere?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We simply told her that she was being transferred.

MR VISSER: Was she blindfolded?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, she was blindfolded and I led her out of the house.

MR VISSER: Yes?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Wasserman then hit her unconscious with a wooden stick.  We carried her to the grave.  We placed her next to the grave and Wasserman shot her once in the head.
	We then removed her clothing, and placed her inside the grave.

MR VISSER: Just before you continue, let us just take a step back.   Wasserman said something about her being placed half way into the grave, something to that effect?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, she was placed in the grave in a skew fashion, her feet were in the grave, but her upper body still emerged.  She was standing half upright in the grave, if I remember correctly.

MR VISSER: The sides of the grave, were they diagonal or straight down?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think they were diagonal.

MR VISSER: And you say that Wasserman then shot her and her clothing was removed and she was then placed inside the grave.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you remember anything about plastic bags?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, Wasserman sprinkled lime over her, there was a bag with lime inside, and we began to close the grave.

MR VISSER: Before you did that, did you also place the lime bag in the grave with her, the bag in which the lime had come?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Where did this lime come from, can you perhaps remember?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, I don't know from where it came.

MR VISSER: But it was present after Taylor had given you the order to carry out the elimination and the burial?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, where did you see the lime for the first time, at the grave?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: At the grave, yes.

MR MALAN: You didn't see Wasserman carrying the lime to the grave?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, I can't remember that.

MR MALAN: And you said that you and Wasserman dug the grave?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And you went together to go and fetch Ms Ndwandwe?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Any explanation or suspicion as to how the lime arrived at the grave?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot say.