Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

MR NODADA: And after that government had been overthrown by the military council under Holomisa, what did you become?  Or rather, did you become anything in the government that took over?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I refused the offer of taking part in the government.

MR NODADA: So you did not become a member of the State.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: In the Holomisa government?

MR NODADA: Wherever.  Immediately after your being a member of parliament came to an end, you just became an ordinary citizen like any other Transkeian citizen?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I was an ordinary member of the Transkei and I refused an offer to go to the embassy in Port Elizabeth.

MR NODADA: I see.  And you were not pleased when you discontinued to be an MP, as a result of the coup at the instance of Bantu Holomisa and others.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I still want to be the member of the parliament, even now.

MR NODADA: Yes I know that, but you were not pleased when that came to an end abruptly.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, I was not pleased.

MR NODADA: When you were a member of parliament, were you not serving your own interests as a person?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, I was serving the interest of the people.

MR NODADA: Is it correct that you were serving the interests of the people as well as your own interests?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I don't understand the question.

MR NODADA: Is it not correct that you were not only serving the interests of the people of Transkei, but you were also serving your own personal interests?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I was serving the interests of the people and I was amongst those people.

MR NODADA: What I want to establish is whether the interests that you were serving were to the exclusion of your personal interests.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, what do you mean by that Mr Nodada?  We know that he was an MP and going with that position is some status, some remuneration, certain benefits.

MR NODADA: Those are the items that ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: But I mean we know that that happens with every MP, you can get an MP who is an MP and has no interest in serving the people, he's only doing it because he's getting a salary and he likes the status.  You get other MPs who find the question of the salary and status irrelevant and they want to do it to serve the people.  So I think if you can just make it more clear to Mr Ntisane what you're trying to get at, because obviously everybody who does a job, any job - I'm doing a job, we're all doing a job here and we're doing it for the interests of the process, but it's obviously in a certain respect, we're doing it in our interest because it's our job.  If we didn't do it we wouldn't eat at night or have a roof over our head.

MR NODADA: I quite appreciate that Judge, I'm quite indebted to you for that ...(intervention)

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Am I supposed to answer?

MR NODADA: No.  No, the judge has just intervened on your behalf so that I can clarify my question.  And the question that I want to get an answer to is whether you fall in the category of those MPs who also had an interest in the income, that is the remuneration as well as the status, or you really didn't care about what you earned or the benefit that you got out of that, you were just concerned about your people?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: It is true that I'm a different person, I am a person who is willing to work for the community without any pay, as I am doing right now.

MR NODADA: Alright, let's come back to the planning for this coup.  Is it correct that Col Craig Duli was living in Stutterheim after he had been released from prison in Port Elizabeth?  He settled down in Stutterheim.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Before he was released from prison did you ever visit him when he was still in detention?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, I did visit him in Port Elizabeth.

MR NODADA: When exactly did this association between you and Col Craig Duli begin? - in relation to your status as an MP and also to his status as the second-in-command of the military council in the Transkei.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: The association with Craig Duli started in 1975.  I was a businessman in Lebode and his in-laws were in Lebode and when his wife got injured in my shop, that was when we started to know each other and we are somewhat related with his wife.

MR NODADA: I see.  Let's come to the day of this incident.  You say you were instructed to drive from East London and go and pick up some persons in Queenstown, who were those persons?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: They were being called Ntati, they were from Lesotho.  One of them if I still remember was Makobokobo, but they were referred to as Ntati because they were from Lesotho.

MR NODADA: Is it correct they were members of the Lesotho Liberation Army?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is what was said.

MR NODADA: And they were soldiers?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that was what was said, even though Makobokobo was over 70 years old.

MR NODADA: How did you establish that he was over 70 years old?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I knew that during the court case in court.

MR NODADA: You did not know these three persons before you met them on the 22nd?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, I did not know them before.

MR NODADA: Were you told the purpose of picking up those persons from Queenstown, why you had to go and pick them up?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, he did not tell me the purpose, he told me when I was in Queenstown that I had to pick up these people and that he was going to Transkei.  All the time he didn't tell me, he kept this inside.

MR NODADA: So you were still in East London when you were told to go to Queenstown and pick up those persons.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes.

MR NODADA: And from Queenstown, where were you going to take them?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He told me to drive with them.  As they were soldiers, I think they were bodyguards, but they didn't have anything with them.

MR NODADA: They were bodyguards for who?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: They were supposed to be my bodyguards if they had weapons, but if they did not have weapons we would be in the same car, they would be like me.

MR NODADA: Now when you say they were supposed to be your bodyguards, what do you mean?  Were you told that they were going to be your bodyguards?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I'm not saying they were bodyguards, what I'm saying is as I was told that they were soldiers, if they had weapons I would say that he had given me bodyguards but because they had no weapons with them, they were just together with me.

MR NODADA: How did  you know that they didn't have weapons?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Because they were with me.  If they had weapons I would have seen them.

MR NODADA: You didn't search for weapons?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, I didn't search for weapons.

MR NODADA: Right.  Apart from picking up those persons from Queenstown, where were you actually en-route to?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He told me to take the Maclear road and I would get instructions from him.

MR NODADA: Where were you actually - what was your destination when you left East London?  I understand the route, but what was your destination?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He would give me instructions of my destination.

MR NODADA: And whose motor vehicle were you driving?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: It was mine.

MR NODADA: And the one that was driven by Col Duli, or in which he was a passenger, if he was a passenger?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: It was the one that was driven by me.

MR NODADA: Now when you left East London, were you driving along with Col Duli?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, I was alone.

MR NODADA: And you were alone when you left East London and then you met three guys, at least three members of the Liberation Army of Lesotho, in Queenstown?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: And where was Duli all that time?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He had already left.