Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: That's correct, he was injured but I don't know him.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I asked, if anybody was injured or killed.  ...(inaudible) the name.

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, I agree that people got injured because we were fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll break for the lunch adjournment.

MR SAMUELS: That is the applicant's evidence-in-chief.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I have a few questions.  I just want to clarify something.
	Sir, you were present when the previous applicant gave evidence about a shooting at a funeral which proceeded down Schoeman Street, do you recall that evidence?

ADV DE JAGER: I think it's the same applicant.  He testified about a shooting down Schoeman Street.

MR SWANEPOEL: Indeed Sir, but the previous applicant also testified about a shooting down Schoeman Street, near the tennis courts, if I remember correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say Schoeman Street?  I'm not too sure.

MR SWANEPOEL: If my memory serves me correctly, I'm just trying to ascertain whether we are talking about the same event.  If not, I will ...  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Shall I repeat the question, Sir?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes.

MR SWANEPOEL: You were present when the previous applicant testified about a shooting that occurred at a funeral march down Schoeman Street, and if my memory serves me correctly, he specifically mentioned near the tennis courts and he also mentioned people shooting from houses, do you recall that testimony.

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, I remember, but it's not the same incident.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright.  I'll leave that there then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Schoeman Street seems to be a war zone.

MR SWANEPOEL: Apparently so, Sir, also very close to the cemetery.
	Let me ask you this.  When the person at the front of the march fell, did he fall because he was shot?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Can you repeat the question, Sir?

MR SWANEPOEL: When the person at the front of the march, the person whose R4 rifle you took fell, did he fall because he was shot?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: I believe so.

MR SWANEPOEL: And did you see where he was shot?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: No.

MR SWANEPOEL: I have nothing further, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: Yes, just one aspect I'd like clarity on, Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Molahlehi, can you recall at the start of the incident where the first shots came from?  Did you act in response to shots being fired upon you or were  you the aggressors in this matter?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: They started shooting and then we responded.

MS PATEL: Are you saying then that you acted in self defence?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

ADV DE JAGER: Were any people on your side injured?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there a lot of gunfire from the other side?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Anybody injured on your side?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: No person on our side was injured because we had a place where we shielded ourselves.

ADV DE JAGER: So you were not openly confronting each other?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: We were confronting each other but we took cover.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you taking cover in houses, or where did you take cover?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: We were outside the houses but inside the yard.  We used the whole fences of those houses.

ADV DE JAGER: When you ran out to take the R4, were they still shooting at that stage?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Yes, they were shooting at that time.  The person who was leading the march was near me, that is why I was able to go and take that R5.

ADV DE JAGER: How far from you did he fall?

LUCKY RICHARD MOLAHLEHI: Approximately 40 metres.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any re-examination?

MR SWANEPOEL: No re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
RECALL OF MR THEMBA RICHARD XABA

MR SAMUELS: Mr Chairperson, earlier on we indicated that Perry Dlamini who was a co-conspirator with Mr Xaba who gave evidence today, was unavailable.  We have since traced him and I would now like to call Parry Dlamini to the witness stand.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, if I may.  I have in the meantime taken instructions from the victims whom I represent in this matter.  Maybe this is a convenient time to finish the cross-examination of Mr Xaba and then proceed with ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions of him?

MR SWANEPOEL: I have one or two questions, depending on the answers, Mr Chair.  As you please.

CHAIRPERSON: We recall Mr Xaba.
	Mr Xaba, you are still under oath to speak the truth, do you understand?  Has he heard that?

INTERPRETER: If he can just tune in on channel 4.

CHAIRPERSON: You are still under oath to speak the truth, do you understand?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Xaba, do I understand your evidence correctly to be that you based your assumption that only Mr Msizi was in the house, on information that you received from people who watched the house for you in the street?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Yes, I've said so.  We were sure that it was only Mr Msizi and his children were not there, and his wife wasn't there, we confirmed this.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, you only make application in respect of an attempt to murder Mr Msizi?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Yes, he was an IFP member and a leader.  We wanted him to resign.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now, I have taken instructions, and Mr Msizi will come and testify if necessary, but my instructions are that his whole family was in the house that evening when you threw the petrol bomb into the house, what do you say to that?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: I'm certain his family wasn't inside the house.  It's a lie that his family was inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: But you said you relied on the information of your informants, correct?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: I said like that and I also said that I took it my job to make sure that Msizi was alone and his family wasn't inside the house.  When he came at ten to nine he was alone, his family wasn't there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Xaba, I don't want to sound rude but you've told us this so you don't have to repeat it.  We don't want to hear a long version.  All I'm asking is simply, that as I understand your evidence thusfar, that you had people watching the house and prior to your throwing or the group throwing that petrol bomb into the Msizi house, your information from those people who were watching that house was that Mr Msizi took his family away and returned alone, and consequently you drew the conclusion that when you threw or when your group threw that petrol bomb into the house, Mr Msizi was there alone, am I correct?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Yes, you are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if your informants were incorrect or they were wrong or they lied to you, you wouldn't know, isn't it?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore it was put to you that you would not be able to dispute in those circumstances, if Mr Msizi were to come and testify that he and his family were indeed in the house when that petrol bomb was thrown into it.

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Let me just explain this this way.  I came 15 minutes before we did what we did and when Msizi came into his house I was outside his house, and he was alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but his family may have been inside the house.  I'm not saying, and I don't think the advocate is suggesting that your honest belief may have been that Mr Msizi was alone, but the factual issue may have been otherwise, would you not agree with that?