Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Otherwise we're adjourning now till a quarter to 2.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] of consulting with your clients?

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I did have a chance to consult with them.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to interfere with the conduct of your case in any way but it's been drawn to my attention that we don't have the services this week of someone from the R&R Committee which we did have last week - there was someone here so you have not been given the assistance you might otherwise been given.
	I'm told that forms are available which set out in some detail the losses suffered by victims and that accordingly, once it has been established that one of your clients is a victim, it is not necessary to get evidence as to the precise nature of the loss, they can then set that out in the form.

CROSS- MR STANDER: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll try and conduct my cross-questioning in that regard.
	Mr Motsamai before we end off with that part of Mr Sebotsa, is it in any way possible to just give an estimate of the damages?  If you are not able to do so, please tell us just that.   I'm sorry Mr Motsamai, won't you tell us more or less the damage to the vehicle if you're able to do so, if you can't then just leave it be.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I cannot estimate the damage as whether what was damaged.

MR STANDER: I didn't hear the answer, what did you say was the value?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know of the damage so I cannot estimate.

MR STANDER: Before I forget, regarding the first occurrence in which the persons were involved who had been arrested by the defence force, I'm instructed to put it to you that those people had an amount of R1.500,00 in their possession which they'd lost and which had never been repaid to them.  Can you comment on this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I've no knowledge where the money was lost.  I know nothing about that money, I don't know anything about that money.

MR STANDER: Then regarding Mr Oliphant, he'd been assaulted to such an extent that he landed up in the Oranje Hospital on occasion - this being a hospital for the mentally disturbed, do you know about this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know as to whether he went to that hospital, I know only when he was assaulted I saw his face that he was swollen because of the assault.

MR STANDER: Tell me please, - Mr Chairman, I'm now moving to the matter of item 4 on his application.  This is where Mr Nicos Molesiwa - the house of Mr Molesiwa was petrol-bombed.  Am I correct in saying that Mr Molesiwa had not been really a political activist, you could have described him as being a sympathizer with the struggle at that stage because he was a business man who had donated funds for this purpose and this was the reason for his house being attacked?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The other thing which you forget that he was a courier, nobody knew that he was a courier.  He was a courier in terms of the files or his file and in many instances the courier never exposes his political activities because he had contacts with the MK.  I agree with your fact when you say he used to help people, particularly helping the political organisations when they went to ask or request money, he used to give them.  Oh okay, the courier means a courier who'd transfer messages from the MK's outside the country and inside the country.

MR STANDER: Tell me, is it true that there were other businessmen who were also sympathizers with this aim and for this reason also appeared in your files?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: May you try to clarify your question so that I can understand?

MR STANDER: The question is simply whether there were other businessmen who were also sympathizers in the sense of donating money, who appeared in the lists of the security police?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They were there yes, though I forgot their names, who were helping the youth - that is COSAS, UDF - when they requested money to continue with their political activities.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I'm now moving to item 6 on the application for amnesty.  This is the petrol-bombing of the house of Mr Citi Mzuzwana.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: May you look on that item carefully, it doesn't speak about Citi Mzuzwana, it speaks of Citi Mzuzwana's parents' house.

MR STANDER: Sorry, I just wanted to refer you to this.  At the stage when this house was bombed - that is his parents' home, he was in fact in custody or in jail?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I will say he was in prison.

MR STANDER: Would you have said that it would have served any purpose of bombing his parents' house when he was in jail already?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I explained that this person who is Citi Mzuzwana, the time when he was there he was assaulted, then they were trying to recruit him so that he should help our security branch.  He was rejecting that, then we received an instruction that we should go and attack the house and the car. About the incident of bombing the house, people would explain that.

MR STANDER: I still don't understand how this would have persuaded him to cooperate with the security police if he'd been in jail and the house of his parents would have been bombed in his absence.  Can you explain this to us please?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Again, I'd continue in that explanation.   I told this Committee, all people who were members of the people we handled, they appeared there then I said again, we would even hurt the parents so that they will be able to reprimand their children - that's Citi and together with younger brothers, they were involved in politics so we're doing that so that the parents would be able to reprimand their children to leave their political activity.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he in imprisoned for?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That's not something that I'm able to explain because I said that there were so many sections which were decided by the officers ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: So he was in detention, he was not serving a prison sentence, is that the position?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, he was in detention.

CHAIRPERSON: And if he'd agreed to cooperate with the security police, you could have arranged his immediate release, is that the position?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Exactly, he could have been released but the way he wouldn't show other activists that he was released.

MR STANDER: Did anyone of the security police tell him while he was in detention, that his parents' home had been bombed in order to persuade him to become an informer?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, they didn't tell him but he was assaulted.

MR STANDER: So those attempts by the security police could not have succeeded in any case, am I correct in saying this?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Not at all.

MR STANDER: The home of Citi Mzuzwana and his vehicle were also later bombed, is this correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is true.

MR STANDER: Am also correct that you don't know what damage was caused?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Exactly.  You're right, I don't know.

MR STANDER: Just tell me, am I correct in saying that the reason you ran away every time was specifically that those who had been harmed could not know who was responsible for the actions?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: So these people who's homes had been bombed, at no stage they would have never been able to make - bring any claims against the police for compensation?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Am I also right in saying that today's the first time that these facts are emerging concerning these events which we've now been discussing?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct, it is for the first time.