Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-27

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Right, if I would ask you to kindly look at the map - on your right, on the board there.

MR BATEMAN: Okay.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Ja from the aerial photographs you have before you - are you able to place on that map where those hostels are located?  Yes the bushes - the  bushes are on top.  NY1  is running down the page - on my right hand side of the page, so it's on the left...[intervention]

MR BATEMAN: Is NY1 running diagonally from my right to my left on the picture?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: That is right, yes - yes.

MR BATEMAN: Okay.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Ja.

MR BATEMAN: Okay  - I am a little bit confused as to looking at the hostel, because the way my mind has it,  is where the bushes are it  should be where the hostels are.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes.

MR BATEMAN: If I look at it - if I compare the picture - the photograph directly.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes the one that - if you were to imagine that that, that  picture on the board is upside down.

MR BATEMAN: Okay.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Just imagine it that to the  other way around, then it would correspond with the photographs you have.  No-no  don't turn it please,  please just imagine it.

MR BATEMAN: Okay.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: But just imagine that - that upside...[intervention]

MR BATEMAN: Okay then - then in fact - the hostel would be - would be in the  bottom left hand - be bottom  left hand side.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: No, bottom  right.

MR BATEMAN: Bottom left - bottom right - NY1.    Okay sorry, yes - no I get it ja.   I can in fact see the other building on the left, ja okay.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay.

MR BATEMAN: Thank you I am with you.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: All right - are you able to point it out for us please.

MR BATEMAN: What,  the hostel?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes.

MR BATEMAN: Okay.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: That is right, thank you.  Okay so if any one were to  be coming down NY1 in the direction of the hostel, the person in the hostel would be able to see very clearly what is happening  in that vicinity?

MR BATEMAN: Certainly, yes.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay right.   You went into Mr Sibaca's room at the time?

MR BATEMAN: Yes.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: You went into.

MR BATEMAN: Ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Are you able to tell us whether  in fact from his window - he could see the events happening in NY1?

MR BATEMAN: Yes, I am, it was directly above.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: So he -  he was in the direct line of vision of what was happening in that area there.

MR BATEMAN: Yes  he was.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay - now thank you very much for that.  So we are able now to locate where Mr General Sibaca was and where the scene was actually happening - the  crime scene - as it were.
We need to know, secondly - what time it was that you arrived and what time it was that the blood was being washed from the street - from the tarmac.

MR BATEMAN: I would have to reconstruct that.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes, okay.

MR BATEMAN: From memory - simply going back to my belated arrival at the police crime conference - which started normally at 9.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Right.

MR BATEMAN: I...[intervention]

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Take your time please.

MR BATEMAN: I - ja I kind of testified this before, but I have no memory of what the testimony was.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay.

MR BATEMAN: So my best recollection would be - it would have been close to - I imagine it would have been after half past nine.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes, so, because you had reported at about nine o'clock at the conference.  Realized that there was nobody there, sped  through to Guguletu to be there.

MR BATEMAN: Correct ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: About what time does it take to get through to Guguletu?

MR BATEMAN: To Gugs?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: From Cape Town.

MR BATEMAN: From Cape Town - 20 minutes at the outside, Probably less.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay - all right.

MR BATEMAN: Ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: And if you going very fast, it could be...[intervention]

MR BATEMAN: It could be a considerable amount less.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay - you are still looking at the pictures - is there anything that you...[intervention]

MR BATEMAN: I have just - ja.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Ja - thank you very much for that.

MR BATEMAN: Okay.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: You - you began to tell us a little bit about the fact this incident created quite a  [indistinct] there  in the press circles and so on.  Why do you think that you were banned from coming to the press conferences, the court team - what happened?

MR BATEMAN: I think the straight - I think the straight truth is - is that I was considered as a security risk.  I had been fine  up and until then,  but this - the way that I had it, was that from - from this moment on I was then considered a serious security risk.  That was my impression, it's my belief.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay, thank you very much.  I do not have any more questions to ask you.  And I'll hand you over to the chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, any further questions - Pumla.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thanks Chairperson.  Thank you sir for coming here.  When we first started, before we had our first hearings in Cape Town - you assisted us to a very great extent.  The documentation that you have collection of clippings, the collages - you have made over the years, your testimonies, and that was a great help for us, because often people don't know about it - or didn't know at the time about the work that we are doing and we had to use a lot of the material that you gave us, to be led - to lead ourselves to people who were involved  at the time and thank you very much for your assistance - for that .
And further than that, to perhaps ask you - a question that is not very related to the facts as such.  That what does it take a person like yourself - the nature of our history in this country - is that of racism.  And that often there is no relationship between black and white people.
You were a journalist - you were writing on a story and I do not believe that,  that was purely professional interest.  I know that you went to the funeral and that you in fact spend a night in Gugs.  And I just want you  to share with us - what is it about you - about you - you are a white person - you did not only  report on the story - something that happened in a black township.  Your life was in danger, you went there.  You spent hours there with people.
What is it that drives you to relate to people at that level?  And drives you to be so concerned about a tragedy that happened in a totally different area?  I mean, divided totally from your own existence.  Not only in terms of the geographic boundaries, but just also in terms of what apartheid things stood for?  Why is it that you do share at that level?

MR BATEMAN: I think, the short answer is an accident of birth.  I grew up in a trading store in Kwa-Zulu Natal.   And my early playmates were Zulu children, and it was ja - it was something I was,  I am very grateful for and that I am able to relate on a level which a lot of white South Africans are not.
And just a word about the TRC was - is that - this is the first hearing I have attended and I was struck at the strength of my emotions and listening to the mothers testify.  And I just have a belief that if the people in Constantia were to really listen to that,  that it would add an enormous amount to the reconciliation of our country.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you and I think you have tasked in a fundamentally - at least  what I consider to be a fundamental aspects of race relations in this country - that if you don't know people, I mean if you don't know them as people - then there is a difficulty in relating to them as such.
And if people begin to go  back  and begin a new way of relating to people.  At least we will be on the road to minimally   working on reconciliation, thank you.

MR BATEMAN: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Just one thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Denzil.