Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR DE JAGER: "During the course of that I was again shackled to the cannon, WR38, and questioned.  The men then adjourned and began consuming alcohol.  I was permitted to sleep briefly, but was wakened up by a man personally known to me as Steven Mbanda, also known as Sipho.  Mbanda then subjected me to a violent physical assault, eventually stopped by several of the other men.  The questioning then continued, along with numerous beatings.  The following morning all of the men were reading newspapers.  I was then permitted to wash and use the toilet facilities.  Several days later I was again blindfolded and taken to another part of the building.  I was placed on a ... my arm was injected with a drug, which I verily believe to be a form of what is commonly known as a truth serum, but that was several days later.  And I was

MR DE JAGER: /"again

MR DE JAGER: "again questioned.  On or about the 26th of February I was advised that I was going to be released."

WILSON J: Do you know Stephen Mbanda?

WITNESS:   I know him very well.

WILSON J: Do you know who he's talking about?

WITNESS:   I know him very well, Mr Chairman.  He was one of the askaris on Vlakplaas, and he was also involved in that specific area of Natal machinery, also a senior member of that.  That's correct, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: And did you adjourn, as he said, or break off and start drinking there?

WITNESS:   No, not in his presence for sure.

WILSON J: Well, did you ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   Maybe that night at home.

WILSON J: Not whilst at the observatory?

WITNESS:   No, not at all.

MR DE JAGER: According to him he wasn't assaulted at all at Lothair.  He was taken to Lothair Police Station, kept there for a day or so, and then taken further.

MR DE JAGER: "On or about ..."

MR DE JAGER: It's paragraph 44.

MR DE JAGER: "On or about the evening of February 26th I was blindfolded and put into the back of a truck.  We drove for several hours and I was left overnight in the car ..."

MR DE JAGER: and then he refers to Struiker(?), who stood guard.

MR DE JAGER: "The following morning the police vehicle proceeded to Lothair Police Station.  I was locked in a cell."

MR DE JAGER: That would be round about then the 27th of -

MR DE JAGER: /"On or

MR DE JAGER: "On or about the 10th of March I was taken from the cell and transferred to another car."

MR DE JAGER: So he was at Lothair from - it seems to be the 27th of February until the 10th of March, but it doesn't seem as though he was assaulted at Lothair.  All these assaults was in the five-day period round about that he was kept at - as it seems to be, the observatory.

WITNESS:   And while abducted, that's correct, yes.

MR DE JAGER: So he wasn't there only for a day or two, he was kept for quite a while at the observatory.

WITNESS:   Well, one will have to look at dates specifically.  I accept Mr Pillay - his abduction was when again, Mr Chairman?  Can you just remind me?

MR JANSEN: The 19th.

WITNESS:   The 19th of November, and he was taken to 26th.  I can't think that it was that long because he was - according to my memory he was not at all detained at ... (intervention)

WILSON J: He was abducted on the 12th of February.

WITNESS:  Was it on the 12th?

MR JANSEN: No, with respect, Mr Chairman, my recollection from all the records that I have in my possession is that it was the 19th.  In paragraph 3 of the affidavit.

WITNESS:   Ja, the 19th.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Stephen Mbanda one of the people who were sent to Swaziland to abduct Joe Pillay?

WITNESS:   He could have been one of the guys, yes, Mr Chairman.  As I said I can't remember all the names.  One will have to look at the court records of Manzini, and then one man stayed behind, but I'm - but I think he refers to him as Jeff Busigu, who stayed behind and accompanied him.  Somewhere

CHAIRPERSON: /I've seen

CHAIRPERSON: I've seen it.  Paragraph 15.

CHAIRPERSON: "I was advised that ... was Jeff Busigu.  Busigu and Lieutenant ..."

CHAIRPERSON: this is van der Lith he's referring to,

CHAIRPERSON: "... got into the vehicle, and I have been advised and do verily believe that the remaining four men returned to Swaziland."

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee, was Mr Mbanda present at the observatory assault?

WITNESS:   As far as I can remember the only guy from Vlakplaas that was present was Mr David Tshikalanga, but not Mr Stephen Mbanda as far as I can remember.

UNKNOWN: According to your evidence he was initially taken to observatory, later taken to Sergeant Schutte's house.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And ultimately transferred to Lothair Police Station.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, reading this document I don't seem to see him placing himself in Sergeant Schutte's house.  Could he be mistaken?

WITNESS:   He can ... (intervention)

UNKNOWN: He seems to be very specific with dates.

WITNESS:   He can, Mr Chairman.  If one would remind him of the news bulletin the night which - when he heard his name on TV, he will specifically remember the incident where we sat on the lawn behind Sergeant Schutte's house and he said, "That's my name that's mentioned there."  And as far as the detention, I wouldn't like to say Mr Pillay is at all lying, but I would like to know possibly from the police detention records at Lothair to see exactly what times, because in my memory it was a very short stint that he

UNKNOWN: /spent in

UNKNOWN: spent in Pretoria.  Maybe a maximum of three, four days, because I know it was sorted out very quickly, the uproar.  Is it possible to sort of ascertain what was the specific day that he was abducted, because that very Sunday the meeting between Foreign Affairs, General Johan Coetzee and the senior officials of the Swazi Police took place on Nersen Border Post?

MR DE JAGER: According to him he was in Pretoria - he was abducted on the 19th.  He would have been brought to Pretoria say round about the 20th or the 21st, and he was again taken back to Lothair round about the 25th, and he arrived at Lothair on the 26th, so it was only a period of five days, six days in Pretoria.

WITNESS:   A short stint.  Ja, to my memory it's a short stint.  It wasn't long.

MR JANSEN: Yes, Mr Chairman, to the extent that it could be of assistance, I have, with the aid of modern technology, ascertained that the 19th of February in 1981 was on a Thursday.

WITNESS:   A Thursday, so the meeting would have taken place between Foreign Affairs - I know it was on a Sunday that the general had to go down to Nersen Border Post.

CHAIRPERSON: The Sunday of the same week?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe, you were interrupted by members of the Committee, and it's over to you to carry on, but I want to know whether it's convenient for us to take the break now and resume within 15 minutes?  Yes, we will take a short adjournment of 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: SHORT ADJOURNMENT

CHAIRPERSON: /ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee, I know that honourable members of the Committee have asked you about certain paragraphs in the Exhibit D, but I am going to ask you please to bear with me because I want to go through some of the paragraphs with you.

WITNESS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: With particular reference to page 3, starting on page 3, from paragraph 19, up until page 6, paragraph 40.

WITNESS:   Well, up to page 6.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, from page 3 up to page 6.

WITNESS:   Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, we are going to handle it in this fashion.  I am going to ask you to have a look at the contents of paragraph 19 and tell whether you know about the contents of paragraph 19, just like that up to the last paragraph.