Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: They said we were going to Shawella which is an open space, in other words it was an outside area, it was outside Shawella.

ADV BOSMAN: Was there any mention of the hill or the ravine or did you just choose that by your own accord?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The people who took the decision, who gave the orders as to where the deceased had to be killed, did they also accompany you to the spot where these people were killed or did some of them accompany you?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The people who were with me in the car, comrade (indistinct) and comrade Sam Siema (?) were the people who took out an order.

CHAIRPERSON: They also went with you to the spot where the people were killed or shot?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, I left with them.

MR TLOUBATLA: I thank you Mr Chairman.  The other boys, that is you say you shot Oscar and then you push him down the hill - the others, the other two, did you see how they were shot and would you describe how they were shot?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When I took Oscar from the boot the second victim was taken by comrade Tamee, the third victim was taken by comrade Sam.  We went to the same spot.  After shooting I went back to the car, on my way to the car I heard gunshots.  Now the impression that I gained at that time was that comrade Tamee and comrade Sam were shooting the last two victims.

MR TLOUBATLA: After killing those boys and then where did you go?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: After killing these boys comrade Tamee and comrade Sam dropped me at Orlando East and one of our hideouts.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then how many days after this incident were you arrested?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: If I remember well, I was arrested after two if not three days.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng I just want you to give us the background to - you know a slight background to this violence that existed between your organisation and the UDF.  In fact even before I come to that, there was a question if you will recall yesterday where you seemed to - was there any difference, in fact you use UDF, SOSCO so interchangeably one doesn't know which is which.  Was there any difference between SOSCO and the UDF.  Did you regard the people of SOSCO as different people, did you regard the UDF as a completely different group that has got nothing to do with SOSCO?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: According to the political organisation structures, this was the situation:  UDF was the mother body and SOSCO was the student wing of the UDF.

MR TLOUBATLA: So in your dealings, or let's say in this conflict, did you differentiate between the UDF or SOSCO?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: UDF and SOSCO were one thing, the only difference was that SOSCO was a student wing of the UDF.

MR TLOUBATLA: So what ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, you attitude towards UDF and SOSCO, you really regard them as one thing.  In fact you just referred to SOSCO, you see SOSCO as being UDF and as I understand the trend of your evidence you see them as being one to such an extent that sometimes when you refer to a member of SOSCO you simply refer to him as a UDF member because they're the same thing?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Do you have an idea as to when exactly did this conflict between AZAPO and the UDF associated organisations commence?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: This is how I recall the start of this conflict:  the conflict between UDF and AZAPO started in  Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape, I think the conflict was worse in that area because that is where most of our comrades were killed.  If I remember very well some of the members of the UDF were also killed.  That is where the conflict started and later on it came to Johannesburg and Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla I think you went into the background in details yesterday, you even handed up some documents.  What you could ask your client though, perhaps you could ask him whether, apart from what the previous applicant has said with regard to the background, whether there's anything more or anything new that he wants to add onto that one.  Maybe he's got his own personal perspectives which may come on to a new dimension of the conflicts.  But really it doesn't help a lot for him to repeat the same thing what the (indistinct) said.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  We had Mr Hslasa yesterday telling us about the background, where it started and what was happening in other parts of the country.  Mr Mphoreng do you perhaps have any other aspects that you can - perhaps even other examples that you would like to mentioned in as far as this conflict between AZAPO and the UDF were concerned?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Thank you very much Chairperson.  Some conflicts that I remember, I remember the one at the Teflo (?) University.  There was a time where Lymon Mbasa and Tamee (?) were attacked at the University at the North.  They were going to address the Azanian Student Movement.  They were attacked by AZAZCO.  At that time AZAZCO was an organisation related to the charterists, in other words it was also a charterist organisation.  The other incident that took place if I remember very well, it was at the University of the Western Cape.  Comrade Lymon Mbasa was a prominent leader of AZAPO at that time, it was in 1985 if not early 1986.  He was attacked because he had gone to that university to address the students of an organisation that was related to AZAPO.  He was attacked by members of AZAZCO.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng one of the incidents actually that you have just described - Mr Chairman I will hand in, I think I've got a press cutting here, it's from the start date of the 23rd of April 1985.

MR MALAN: Mr Chairman if I may just come in here.  As far as I'm concerned I accept that there was conflict between the UDF, its junior or affiliated organisations.  This conflict, to my knowledge, apparently started in the Eastern Cape, it moved virtually country wide, I'm not aware of Natal but certainly in other Provinces it was there and I don't know what Mr Ameen (indistinct), but I certainly don't dispute the fact that there was and we can save a lot of time, there was conflict between those two organisations indeed.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't think I'm going to go into detail, it's just the he mentioned something and it happens that I've got actually a press cutting, I thought I'd ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have enough copies for everybody there?

MR TLOUBATLA: Unfortunately not, I will make them during the ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where does it relate, to which incident does it relate to?

MR TLOUBATLA: It relates to the attack on members of AZAPO at the University of the North.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR TLOUBATLA: This was the 23rd of April 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we'll have that.  I wouldn't like to ask Mr Ameen what his attitude is at this stage, I don't want to put him in a very difficult position, I don't want him to commit himself at this stage.  It may be that he has not finalised his consultation.  I think let's have it up as EXHIBIT F?

MR TLOUBATLA: Exhibit ja, I'm not so sure if it's F.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it will be F, yes.  What's the date Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: It's 23 April 1985, it's from the Star.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Tloubatla.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Mphoreng did you see the article, the one in the Star, the one that I gave it to you?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I saw the article.  Yes, I've seen the article and it confirms what I've just said.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then lastly, these guns with which you were shooting these boys, where did you get them.  Who supplied you with the guns?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Comrade Tameen (indistinct) gave me the gun that I used, he was my leader, he gave me that firearm.