Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, when they came to Sandile and Ray they indicated that they had been sent to Charles to try and get hold of comrades.  We refused to go and wake other people up because when they came looking for comrades, we knew that they were people from exile.  We were convinced however that they were coming from exile because they had produced hand grenades and firearms.  Maybe they had already gathered information that the youth in Chesterville are in dire need of such things and they were persuasive, indicating that we should go there and get those things, the hand grenades.

CHAIRPERSON: And it seems that it was only when they got to the shack where you and the others were in, that they now for the first time had a group of active comrades together in one place.

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes and no.  I can say that, yes, but you have things such as mass meetings, such meetings which would also be attended by a granny, but if you get the manner in which people participated in the comrades affairs, it's a different situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm just talking about this night, this fateful night of the shooting, it seems on that night, only when they got to the shack where you and the others were in, it seems to be the first time that they actually now had a group of active comrades, a group of people with a few active comrades amongst them, together in one place that night it seems.

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: I wouldn't say, I wouldn't speculate as to what was going on in their minds.  I am saying, for example when we're talking about a mass meeting, Sandile too would attend a mass meeting, but it was known that he was not an informer, he was not a police, he was not a member of the vigilantes.  I therefore cannot say or speculate on what they were thinking.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and then you started speaking, they with you, your group started speaking the proper comrade language, you spoke about firearms, you spoke about the enemy in Chesterville and so on.

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were on the same wavelength?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, we were on the same wavelength, because I trusted them.

CHAIRPERSON: They offered to take you into exile so that you can get military training and that sort of thing?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then soon after that you were all shot down?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, after that they started firing the hail of bullets, after the woman left and came back.

CHAIRPERSON: After it was clear that you were all speaking the same language?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, I think so because in the discussions that we had, not all of us were conversing. Ncapeshe, for example, was a quiet person, Russell was one of the people who were answering, you know, engaged in the conversation.  Peter and Stanley as well.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that in your view their sole intention was to shoot and kill you in that shack?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, I cannot recall anybody speaking isiZulu present from among the group.  I cannot recall anybody calling out saying "let's arrest them".  Nobody among us was armed.  We did not have firearms.  Sandile was also wearing pyjamas.  Ncapeshe was half naked, he had just woken from his sleep.  It was very easy for these people to arrest us, they could have pointed their firearms at us and handcuffed us.  It is for this reason that I am concluding that these people had come solely for the purpose of killing us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Shezi.

ADV DE JAGER: Which language did the woman speak?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: We were speaking isiZulu.

ADV DE JAGER: And the people who were with her, did they also speak Zulu?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: What I noticed here is that even though I am not seSotho speaking, I can hear a Sotho speaking and I can respond here and there.  I am not well conversant in Xhosa also, but I can respond to questions.  I can engage a little bit in a conversation.  These people were talking a very strange language.  We could pick it up before they even came into the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shezi.

MR SHEZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just one question.

MR SHEZI: Mr Mbatha, you said they asked you about Charles and then you said amongst you in the house there is someone who fitted Charles' appearance?

TEBELLO TRYWELL MBATHA: Yes, I can say that.  Russell's height was similar to that of Charles and his hair as well.  If you didn't know Charles very well, Russell fitted that description and this Indian hair, you know, he was exactly of the same height as Russell, as Charles rather.
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR SHEZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Shezi.  Mr Mbatha, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shezi, you had indicated you would only call the one witness.

MR SHEZI: That is so Mr Chairman, I've got no other witness to call, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: No, thank you Honourable Chairperson, I do not intend to lead any further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Ramawele, have you got any submissions on the merits of this application?

MR RAMAWELE: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'm just going to be very, very brief.