Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR HUGO: And it's possible that at the same time, or at the same time when the Chesterville incident took place other groups for example, we acting in kwaMashu or in Umlazi or in Lamontville?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.

MR HUGO: Then I want to put it to you that regarding Mr Radebe's version - and I want to say here right from the beginning he is a bit uncertain about this, but his version as he remembers that is that they did not first go into Chesterville, then talk to the victims and were then asked to give a weapon as a so-called showpiece.  As he recollects it, weapons were given to them right from the beginning and by that I mean 1 AK and handgrenades, that they went with these weapons into Chesterville right from the beginning.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I will not dispute that, but as far as I can remember I can remember the AK47 handed by Nortje to Radebe.  The other could be possible.  I was not there all the time when Willie Nortje informed the people.

MR HUGO: And you addressed this aspect, but as far as you can remember there was no previous planning that people had to be killed.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Nee, onder geen omstandighede nie, Meneer.

MR HUGO: En trouens, die feit dat daar 'n skietery plaasgevind het, het eintlik maar as 'n groot verassing en tot 'n mate 'n skok gekom.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Dit is korrek, Mnr die Voorsitter.
TYPED IN AFRIKAANS AS THERE WAS NO ENGLISH INTERPRETATION

MR HUGO: And when you reported at the CR Swart - let me first ask you, what time did you report?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I'm not sure about the time, but I think it was late that evening, it was between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock.

MR HUGO: You have already testified that Mr de Kock was in the sleeping quarters, and I accept that he was woken up, what was his reaction when he was told there was a shooting incident?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Mr de Kock got up, I think he contacted the security officer, Col Andy and they went back to the scene that same night.

MR HUGO: What I'm trying to say it, was Mr de Kock surprised, was he shocked or did it seem as if he expected that?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: He was very surprised, he did not expect that.

MR HUGO: And I see you are saying in your affidavit, which is part of the amnesty application, that Mr de Kock informed Col Andy Taylor, you suspect that he informed him because Taylor was also there.  If you mention that, does it mean after this incident?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: So is it your evidence that after you'd reported back to de Kock, he and you suspect, Taylor, went back to the scene.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And at what time did that happen?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: It's difficult to say, but it was early that morning, between 3 o'clock or 4 o'clock that morning.

MR HUGO: I've got no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you, Mr Hugo.  Mr Shezi?

MR SHEZI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	So Mr Vermeulen, you are saying this whole Chesterville incident was Mr Willie Nortje's initiative?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, this was not on our initiative.  As I've already said we went to the police station or the army bases, there we asked where the flashpoints were because we did not know the Durban environment very well.

MR SHEZI: You went to Chesterville Police Station in particular to find out where the Durban flashpoints were, is that what you are saying?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: Why pick on Chesterville to find out about flashpoints in Durban generally?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Chesterville we found out was a flashpoint.

MR SHEZI: I'm confused now. You said you went to Chesterville to find out about flashpoints in Durban, so in other words when you went to Chesterville you did not know what was happening in Durban, you went to Chesterville to find out about flashpoints in Durban.  And my question is, why did you pick on Chesterville in particular to find out about flashpoints in Durban.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I understood that wrongly.  At that police station or army base there was a centre where all the areas in Durban were indicated on a map.  A certain army officer indicated the flashpoints on that map because we did not know what was happening in Durban and the environment, and then he indicated that Chesterville was the place which was a big flashpoint and we moved in that direction.

MR SHEZI: Your moving to Chesterville as a flashpoint, what were you going to do there, what were you hoping to achieve?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: We sent the group there to see whether they could obtain information regarding the various groups and also the people responsible for the murder on the security policemen in the vicinity.

MR SHEZI: The security policemen which were killed in Durban, as you said earlier on in your evidence-in-chief, where about in Durban were they killed, was it kwaMashu, Umlazi, Claremont, where?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, Mr Chairman.

MR SHEZI: But you went to Chesterville hoping to find information about the Security Police which were killed.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman, because Chesterville was a flashpoint and they said we should start there.  It just happened by chance that we started at Chesterville, it could have been some or other flashpoint.  The people just decided that Chesterville was the place where most activities were taking place.

MR SHEZI: Which people decided?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: It's the people we consulted at the army base at the police station and those people who indicated on the map where the flashpoints were.

MR SHEZI: Do you remember any particular person at the army base whom you contacted?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I think it was the person second-in-charge, he was a Major or a Lieutenant, I'm not sure anymore.  I can't remember his name.

MR SHEZI: At the time when you were told about flashpoints in Durban, who was present?  Was Willie Nortje present, was Mr de Kock present?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Mr de Kock was not present, Chairperson, only Nortje was there, I myself and the white members.

MR SHEZI: Mr de Kock was the Commander of the C10 Vlakplaas unit which had been requested to come to Durban to combat this killing of the Security Branch policemen, isn't it?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.

MR SHEZI: Yet he was not there during the briefing of what exactly the Vlakplaas C unit has asked for to come, he was not in that briefing.  Would you find that strange?  This was a very important briefing.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairman, he was only - the whole unit was here as I've already testified and he had the overall command to look after everybody's interests.

MR SHEZI: What I'm saying to you is, he was the Commander of Vlakplaas C unit, the very same unit which had been asked specifically to come and combat among other things, killing of the Security Branch policemen in Durban.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes.

MR SHEZI: And this very briefing which you are talking about, at which some Commander or some Captain at the military army base told you about flashpoints, was exactly what the C Vlakplaas unit came for in Durban and as the Commander he was not there.  Isn't it strange?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This isn't strange.  As I've already said, he was the overall person in command, he can't be on duty for 24 hours and that was why we divided into various groups and he had the overall command.