Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: Theyundressed my sister, they assaulted her, and they just left her there, theycame back. After two weeks I appeared before the Court and I was given - I wassentenced to 15 days or R15,00. There was another chap from the ANC who was arrested, and he said, "You don't haveto pay this. When you receive a card on your release you must come to us, we'llassist you." Those 15 days were reduced to 12 days, and I managed to come home.But I went back to my work. I told them to give me money, to give me my salary,because I wasn't working for them now. They didn't give me anything. When Itried to talk to them they said I should go and get everything from Mandelabecause I was his informer in Bophutatswana. I didn't have any place to sleep,I didn't have food to eat, until one person felt sorry for me and he gave memoney until I reached my home. Even when I was here they kept on promising methat they would arrest me. At one stage I went to Mafikeng to ask them whethercan they give me anything. They said no up to this day.

MR LYSTER: Sorry, can you - are you indicating that your ear phones arenot working? Can you hear me?

WITNESS: I can hear you.

MR LYSTER: Is that the end of your - sorry, can you not hear me?

WITNESS: Iam requesting - because I didn't get anything from them. I am not working. Iget lifts when I have to go to Mafikeng.

MR LYSTER: Mr Motlale, were you discharged from the defence force whenyou were sentenced? We you dismissed? Sorry, not the defence force, the policeforce. Were you dismissed from the police force? Did you get a letter informingyou that you were dismissed?

WITNESS: They took me to the head office in Mafikengand I was then told that I am dismissed.

MR LYSTER: Did they give you reasons?

WITNESS: No, they didn't give me anyreason whatsoever. But when they were beating you and assaulting you and torturingyou did they say that you were an informer? I think that's what I understoodyou to say. --- Yes, that's what they said.

MR LYSTER: Do you have any idea why they said that, why they should havesaid that?

WITNESS: This happened because I was at home when Mangope was arrestedand taken to the stadium. I was at home. Now, they thought that I went hometo inform the ANC people what was happening in Bophutatswana.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... at home assisting with the burial of your brother.--- That's correct, Sir.

MR LYSTER: Have you been employed since then?

WITNESS: No, I have never beenemployed because I am now sick.

MR LYSTER: What sickness do you have?

WITNESS: I think the electrocution hasaffected me, because I even had an operation.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... that they got some electrical equipment. Youdidn't tell us what they did with it. What did they do to you? You said thatthey tortured you by means of hitting you with a wet sack, but you didn't tellus what they did with the electrical equipment. Can you tell us?

WITNESS: They brokemy finger, two fingers on both hands. These fingers are not working. And heremy private parts are not working perfectly well. I even have a hole on my thigh.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... electrical equipment, electrical torture equipment.--- Yes, that's where they applied the electric equipment.

MR LYSTER: And did you make a statement to any other police about this?Did you lay charges of assault? Did you do anything about it at the time?

WITNESS: I couldn't go to any policemenduring those years because Bophutatswana was still oppressing the people.

MR LYSTER: At which hospital were you treated for your injuries?

WITNESS: Iwent to Maroka Hospital.

MR LYSTER: Mr Motlale, at this stage I'll ask my colleagues if they wishto ask any questions.

MR LYSTER: In your statement you said that you were arrested because theyfelt that you went ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 8) ... says that youdid inform - get a permission from Sergeant Motsibe to go home for the burialof your brother. Did you go to the sergeant who had given you permission toask him to rectify this suspicion, because he knew that you had gone to buryyour brother?

WITNESS: When these people were harassing me like this I couldn't meethim at all, and I didn't see him.

MR LYSTER: Did he know that you were expelled because it was said thatyou had gone home because you had gone to be an informer?

WITNESS: I can say he knows,because I sent people to him but he never came.

MR LYSTER: He never came. Can you give us the date of your arrest? ---I can't remember the date very well. It was on a Saturday if I still remember.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... the month of June.

WITNESS: Yes, it was still inthe June month.

MR LYSTER: Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Mr Motlale, did your sister make any statement to the police?Did she lay any charges as far as you know?

WITNESS: When she arrived at Wesselsbronshe went to the police station, trying to lay a charge against the policemen,and they asked her where will they get those policemen if she doesn't know them.

MR LYSTER: Where is your sister living at this time?

WITNESS: She is marriedin Botswana at this present moment.

MR LYSTER: It would be very useful if you could request her to get intouch with us to also make a statement relating to what happened to her if that'spossible.

WITNESS: I don't know whether will she receive the post quickly, becausethey don't have any telephones in the area they are situated. I'll have to writeher a letter, and then they take three weeks to reach them.

MR LYSTER: It doesn't matter. We're still going to - the Commission isstill going to be working for many, many months to come, and it would be usefulto supplement the evidence that you have given by her evidence as well. So ifyou feel that you can do that it would be useful for us if you could write toher and ask her to make a statement.

WITNESS: I will do so, Sir.

MR LYSTER: Yes, one of my colleagues has mentioned that she can do itthrough the embassy in Gabarone if she wants to make a statement there, if youcan inform her of that, in Botswana. Thank you very much for coming to see ustoday to tell us your story. We will follow up this story. If you are able togive names of the people who assaulted you and assaulted your sister to ourstaff, who are down below where you were sitting, so that we can add to thestatement that you made to us some weeks ago in Bloemfontein. That will certainlybe very useful for us. We will try and follow up to see why that took place,and to confront the people who were responsible for that.  And, as I've said, it will be useful to have the statementof your sister.

MR LYSTER: The role of the police in this country has - in our country'shistory has always been a very controversial role. Instead of protecting therights of all citizens, and upholding those rights, in the past the police inreality served the interests of only one political group, and this of coursewas made more difficult by the fact that they created - the Government createdlots more police forces in the various homelands which were created at thattime, and you worked for one of those homeland governments, one of those homelandpolice forces. And what happened to you at that time should never ever havehappened, and we now have a constitution and a police force which will ensurethat those sorts of things do not happen ever again and, as I said earlier on,we must all work hard and vigilantly to uphold those rights, which so many peoplehave fought for.

MR LYSTER: We express our deep sympathy for you at the terrible thingsthat happened to you, and the injuries that you received. We will do our bestto get to the bottom of what you have told us. As you have probably heard meand Dr Borain say today, we cannot offer you any immediate assistance. Our jobis to make recommendations to the President and to the Cabinet, and they inturn will make recommendations to Parliament to put their policies and theirrecommendations into effect.