Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

MR NEL: I have a record of a from called a G327 which I obtained from Barberton Town Prison and that reflects that you were admitted to Barberton Town Prison at 09h20 on the 8th of April 1991, would that be accurate or would you say that's incorrect?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I wouldn't know but what I know is it was in '90.  With regards to that form I don't have any knowledge of what's contained there.
	I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I did not explain about Town Prison.  Town Prison has bullet marks around the walls where prisoners will shoot.  In fact it's a filthy prison.  Even if you can go to inspect it around you will realise that it's a dilapidated prison and one thing for sure I was sent there and I was there.  That's all I will say.

CHAIRPERSON: So in response to what's being put to you by Mr Nel, he says he's got a form there that says you were admitted on the 8th of April 1991, are you denying that or are you saying that might be correct or are you insisting that you went into Town Prison during 1990?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Mr Chairman, let me agree to that, let me say yes to what is saying.  I'm agreeing that in 1991 I went to Town Prison but I'm trying to point at is that I was indeed in Town Prison but as for the year he has just mentioned, well I will say yes to what he has read and agree to it.

MR NEL: Would you then agree with me that your statement must be a mistake and you also then made a mistake this morning when you gave your evidence in saying that you went to Barberton Town Prison in 1990, if you agree with the form that I have with me?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: What I will say is that I did not make any mistake in my statement.  My statement is only pointing or giving indications as to the facts that I went to Town Prison but as to the details, let's not pay attention to details inasfar as these deeds are concerned.  I did mention that there are errors in my statement but let's concentrate on that, let's dwell on the fact that yes, I was in the Town Prison.  As for the details and as far as days are concerned, can we put that to rest?

MR NEL: I would like to put it to rest Mr Gwamanda, but it's not so easy just to put something to rest.  All I want to know is, do you agree that you could have possibly made a mistake by saying in your evidence in chief and also in your statement under oath, that you were transferred to Barberton Town Prison in 1990?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I will not agree that I made a mistake.

MR NEL: Very well.  Elijah Mhlaba, you did say that you became friends with Elijah Mhlaba.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR NEL: And you also stated that Elijah Mhlaba pleaded with you to become or to say that you are a member of the IFP.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Very well.

MR NEL: Why did he plead with you?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I would not know but one thing I think he pleaded with me for was that he knew that he was getting paid much better because he was superior inmate or a superior prisoner and he was very well known. He was a superior prisoner and so myself and the other two, the four were superior prisoners in the prison.

MR NEL: How did you become a superior prisoner in Barberton Town Prison?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That's stemmed from the day I agreed to work with him hand-in-hand because he had already become a member of the AWB a long time ago or working with the AWB member a long time ago.  So when I joined we became therefore or we assumed a better position and we were therefore superior.  We could also have girlfriends there.
	It's a privilege you cannot enjoy when you're not a superior prisoner in prison.  So we were different from other inmates because we could do other things that other prisoners could not do.  We would do things like entertaining ourselves, living so comfortably, enjoying some privileges or being superior to others and other prisoners were complaining, not to forget to mention that, about our status in prison.

MR NEL: Are you saying that you started to enjoy more privileges once you joined the IFP and were introduced to the AWB members?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, that marked the beginning of my comfort and of my being superior as a prisoner.

MR NEL: Who and when did you meet of the AWB?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: The person I met, the first time I had a conversation with was Sergeant Venter, Lieutenant Venter and the people were so close to us because Venter was an assistant of the Town Prison authority.  The head of the prison was Augusteyn(?).  We used to call him Chuck Norris because this is how would demonstrate about his shoulders, just like Chuck Norris.  When you speak to him you'll to kneel down a distance from him.  Medium B is known very well ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was his name?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: We used to call him Chuck Norris.

CHAIRPERSON: But what was his name?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: He had a name-tag, it was written Kristen(?).

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not quite clear about he is saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Grissel?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Around there.

CHAIRPERSON: G-R-I-E-S-S-E-L or something like that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, just around there.  I'm not too sure about the spelling but it's pronounced the way I did, somewhere there.

MR NEL: When you met Sergeant Venter as a person belonging to the AWB, what did he tell you with regards to the AWB?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I thank you for that question, that's a wonderful question.  He told me that AWB is the owner of this country.  This Matthew Phosa and others are a bad influence in this country, they're disturbing the leadership of the Boers and Inkatha Freedom Party is working hand-in-hand and collaborating with the AWB and this Inkatha, amaZulu is so much co-operative with the AWB and there is not any other tribe here in South Africa that has a King as Goodwil is a King.  They are comfortable with him and Inkatha is the head of kwaZulu Natal and the AWB is totally opposed to communists.

MR NEL: When was the first time that he started speaking to you about Mr Phosa?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: The very first time he spoke to me, I may not have a clear recollection of the date and I'm not in a position to even state the day, as to which day it was but talking about Matthew Phosa, that started or he started talking about him during the Codesa days.  He started about Matthew Phosa around that time, that he has to be killed because in the low-veld he's so much of great disturbance to the Boers.

MR NEL: This meeting you had, was it only with Sergeant Venter or was it also Lieutenant Venter?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Thank you for that question.  With regards to this plan of assassinating Matthew Phosa we were there, the four of us and Sergeant Venter was there and Lieutenant Venter and Lieutenant Joubert was in Town Prison.  He was transferred to Medium to Open Camp where he is stationed.
	Colonel Roets was in a farm, Maximum. There were offices there where some Brigadiers were stationed, so he was there.  We will meet Roets during the training and at Aubrey's place when we would have entertainments or braais.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what were those other names you mentioned, Mr Gwamanda?  You mentioned Joubert, and what was the other name, Colonel Roets?