Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

ADV GCABASHE: Ja on this particular issue, just the AWB one, that you could talk about it in court just so that the Court could understand where you are coming from?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Mandla just told us that he would send us a representative. As soldiers then we would defend ourselves as well.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR BOTMA: Let's go back to the day of the incident and the question of the time that you approached the truck. I understood your evidence earlier that you instructed your co-accused to remain at the back of the truck is that correct or am I wrong on that assumption?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: That is correct.

MR BOTMA: And you then told him that you will take care of this whole operation and that is why you went towards the front of the truck, correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: And you told this Commission before that the whole purpose of going there was to arrest or to take care of Mr Meyers and to take him back to Thanduxolo. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: Now let's go back then to the question why did you then go to the passenger's side and not towards the driver's side where Mr Meyers was?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I had to pro... he was getting out at the right hand side of the car. I went to the passenger's side so that I could see the victim from a distance so that he does not make any movements or perhaps trying to take my arm from me.

CHAIRPERSON: You were standing outside the truck?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You could stand a metre away from him, couldn't you and he would be close to you, you could see everything he was doing and take any action that was necessary without having to shoot his daughter because she was in the way?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It would have been difficult because if I was going to stand at a distance it, a person could move their hand without really moving the shoulder. They could shoot through the door of the truck. He could shoot me through the door of the truck.

CHAIRPERSON: He could do that from either side of the truck. It was easier for him to move his right hand up when you were right on the other side and the other side of the passenger, wasn't it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It would have been difficult. Because whatever movement he made you could see it because I saw him from that distance. I could see that his arms were not moving. I did not have a problem with the girl because she was not armed.

CHAIRPERSON: But as you have already told us she was moving.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: She moved after the noise because she was in shock from the noise.

MR LAX: How did you know she was not armed?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: She was not armed.

MR LAX: The question is how did you know? You could not see, you could not see through the door?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I did not know that she was not armed. It is from their movement that I could determine everything. I had to look at the motion they made, any movement they made it would be clear to me as to whether they were trying to defend themselves or not.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just take this maybe one step back? When you approached the truck, did you know that Donne was sitting there?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I did not know.

ADV GCABASHE: And where exactly was Mike Meyers as you approached, inside or outside the truck?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He was in the truck, driver's seat.

ADV GCABASHE: There is evidence to the contrary but I think I will leave that too. It is okay I was just checking on something.

MR BOTMA: Are you certain that Mike Meyers was inside the truck when you approached the truck?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes I am certain.

MR BOTMA: Because I put it to you and if necessary evidence will be presented later on that Mike Meyers was standing on the right hand side of the truck when the first shot was fired. Right hand, I mean on the driver's side of the truck, towards the back.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He was on the driver's seat. I remember that. He got shot as he was trying to run away, in the stomach. He was not standing. We found him sitting on the driver's seat.

MR BOTMA: Now the whole idea of yours was when you approached the truck was to get Meyers as soon as possible and to take him away from the scene. Is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTMA: So what was the reason for pretending as if you were coming there to buy milk?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: For us to pretend as if we were going to buy milk? Is that what you asking? We did not want the villagers to identify us easily. We were taking cover as if we were going to buy milk.

MR BOTMA: You realised that when you arrived there at that scene and mix with the people from that area that all the people will immediately realise that you are not from that area, correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes we realised that.

MR BOTMA: Now getting back to the time when you approached him, let's carry on, on your version. You instructed Meyers to hand his firearm to you, is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR BOTMA: Did you know at that point in time where his firearm was?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No I did not know. Because he was a white man and they always carry firearms I thought I would disarm him first.

MR BOTMA: Can you recall the words you used when you instructed him to hand over a firearm to you?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I cannot remember the exact word but I know that I demanded his pistol from him.

MR BOTMA: And then he bended over and reached for the cubbyhole to take out the firearm (...indistinct) is that correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I thought he was reaching out for a gun to defend himself because he reached towards the cabinhole.

MR BOTMA: You just instructed him: "Hand me over your firearm." Now he was bending towards and to take the firearm and to hand over to you to comply with your instruction. Why did you think he was defending himself?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He could point at the gun and tell me where it is and then I would take the gun myself. When he reaches out for the gun himself that is something else. He reached out for the gun himself. He could have reached out for it, taken it and pointed it at me and killed me.

MR BOTMA: That was not your instruction. Your instruction to him was: "Hand over your firearm." Your instruction was not: "Point out your firearm to me." He was complying with your instruction on your own version.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Unfortunately then he got shot. Then it was an accident. However I expected him to point at the gun not for him to reach out and take it. He uses a gun, he knows how you handle it. You do not reach out and take a gun. I will explain. I am making an example. If somebody comes to me and I am in a car and demands a pistol from me. When that person demands that pistol from me I cannot give it to him like I am handing over a bunch of keys. I have to point at the pistol because that person will think that my gun is loaded and I am going to shoot them. It is not like a bunch of keys where you can hand over the keys. You point at the weapon and then the person who is demanding the gun from you would stipulate and say what you should do. I thought that he was defending himself, he wanted to fight.

MR BOTMA: This truck was if I remember it correctly a 3 tonne truck Canter is it correct?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Please repeat your question Sir?

MR BOTMA: This truck was a 3 tonne Canter. The (...indistinct) of the make of the truck. If you look at the application itself right in the front page one of B (...indistinct) is a photo of the truck. Is that the photo of the truck?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes it is.

MR BOTMA: Now were you standing on the ground next to the truck or were you standing on the steps of the truck? What is the situation at the point when you demanded the firearm from Mike Meyers?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do not see any steps. What steps are you talking about?