Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-28

MR PRIOR: Just generally, a general question, how was the relationship between Frasers - your staff at Frasers and the community there - I want to know was Frasers a well supported business, or was it - did it have difficulties in selling its stock, or what is the position?

MR FRANZSEN: No, we had no difficulty.  It was a very friendly staff, we were very helpful.  Our aim was to train these people to uplift them and uplift the standard of these people - to eventually get them into the Management position, because that was the aim of the whole Rusfurn group at that point in time, was to get the people trained.

MR PRIOR: Are you able to - sorry, so you did have black personnel at that time?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, it's only the three white Management that was there to run the show.

MR PRIOR: And you say Rusfurn at that stage - is that the controlling company?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, that was the controlling company.

MR PRIOR: And their policy was to uplift the black people, particularly in that area, in order for them to take over eventually and run the shop themselves?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Prior, maybe just one important point you may have forgotten to ask him about this.  What is you reaction to what you have heard from the applicant today?

MR FRANZSEN: Sorry, I can't hear you that well.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear Mr Gqomfa, the applicant, what he had to say today about this matter?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, I did hear what he said.

ADV SANDI: Do you have any reaction that you would like to express in regard to what he said today?

MR FRANZSEN: No, I've got no knowledge of his side of the story, I just heard what he was saying today, and my opinion was that I think he had also a chance in life to say yes or no, he wants to do this or he wants to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Just one question, but just before I - just for clarity - just before I ask that, I would like to say to you that accept my sympathy for what you went through during that day, the 18th of March 1992, but just a few - you said to the Committee that if you had similar weapons it would have been a different ball-game.  Can you elaborate on that?

MR FRANZSEN: Okay, to elaborate on that, I mean, if you take war, the two sides are fighting and they've got equal weapons or some is maybe more sophisticated than the other one, but at least the ones who are attacked has also got a chance to the attacker, and I'm saying, I mean, if we also had the same kind of weapons then we could have - it should have been something different.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, maybe just to add to that, may I say for instance different ...(indistinct) any other person possibly it would have not been a different ball-game if, even if he had weapons or because they don't know anything about weapons.  Are you trying to tell the Committee that you have a knowledge of using a firearm, or you were trained in using firearms?

MR FRANZSEN: Well I was trained during 1978 to 1980, I was trained in the Army.  That was fourteen years before the incident, so it was a long time ago, but it's something you never forget.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: As everybody else asked questions, I want to ask some general questions about Sterkspruit.  How big is it, or how big was it then?

MR FRANZSEN: It's the same size, Mr Chairman.  It's the same size as it is now at this point, we've got a few furniture shops there, and a few supermarkets, a hotel, grocery stores and so on.  It's quite a big community.

CHAIRPERSON: And who owns those businesses now?

MR FRANZSEN: It's still owned by your company, it still owns businesses there, two shops.

CHAIRPERSON: And are there still white people working there?

MR FRANZSEN: We've got still a white Manager, still working there, and as the other furniture shop as well, they've got also white Managers, and then furniture shops from other companies, they've also got still white Managers there.

CHAIRPERSON: And I notice that in those days, or rather when you came to make your affidavit, you were living in Zastron.

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Deon Maarten was living at Wepener.

MR FRANZSEN: That is also correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you drive to and from work everyday?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, he came from Wepener and picked me up in the mornings, and then Fanie Smit as well, and we go thought to Sterkspruit where we do our daily job.

CHAIRPERSON: And were there other people doing to same thing?

MR FRANZSEN: Other people were doing exactly the same thing, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were coming in early in the morning, a lot of white people worked at Sterkspruit, drove into Sterkspruit early in the morning?

MR FRANZSEN: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And anybody who wanted to make enquiry or ...(indistinct) would have found this out?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I presume your cars - your vehicles would have also been recognisable?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If they were used - there were also used day after day.

MR FRANZSEN: The very same vehicles, yes, I mean, they know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

MR FRANZSEN: Okay.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all for today, and all for this session.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this matter also going to be adjourned now to a date to be arranged and a venue to be arranged, conditional upon receiving the representation which the PAC have undertaken to make and any further which we may obtain of the people - implicated parties.  I would like to stress that we would be extremely grateful to the implicated parties if they are able to deal with the question of the positions they held and the instructions they gave to the applicants and other young people who might have been convicted of offences which they were - which they committed what they believed to be in the interests of the Party and the Country, and if that is the position, we would like to clarify that as soon as possible, so from that point of view we would like the implicated parties who have been mentioned to realise just how important their contribution can be towards ensuring that the process is carried out as quickly as possible.  Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we now adjourn this sitting.
	Sorry, before we leave, could I on behalf of the members of the Committee thank Solly for what he's done, the translators for what they have done, the attorneys who have appeared before us, and all those in Aliwal-North itself who have done so much to make the hearings proceed smoothly, and in that we obliged to the Police Force for having made their facilities available for us and to the Correctional Services for having ensured that the applicants are here when needed, that their attorneys have had a chance to consult with them in matters of that nature.  We are very conscious of all that all of you have done, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS