Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

DJ MKHIZE: It must be remembered that we were arrested first.  That is in August.  Romeo was arrested in July.  And at the time Mr Luthuli was still outside.  Mr Luthuli was at the time one of the people that we were looking up to to keep promises so that we could be assisted legally and in any other way.  And also he had his own friends at the time, as I have already indicated.  And therefore we were still waiting and as we were in court at Mtunzini and he kept coming to court.
	I remember one day he came in the company of Lesley Mkulisa, another Caprivian and my girlfriend referred to earlier on.  They came to see me.  We discussed this.  He is the only leader among the leaders with whom we were working who still came closer to us at the time.  He still had the courage to come to court because people did not know him at the time.  And he would come to court and find a way of speaking to me.
	And he also indicated that he too didn't know what to do.  And we wondered how, because we had a situation.  And he said one day that the people wanted to attack him as well.  And I started not understanding what is happening.  And I'm trying by so saying to explain that Mr Luthuli according to me remained behind and experienced some pressure which did not enable him to communicate with us as well as he ought to.
	And we ultimately took the decision to expose the truth.  I can therefore say that myself and Mr Luthuli jointly took the decision.  We then therefore brought him closer because he was still the only person coming to us.  And that was because they wanted him to ride the bus as well.

MR MOGADE: Sorry Mr Mkhize, who do you refer to when you say "they"?

DJ MKHIZE: I am talking about the IFP leaders who disowned us after having promised us that they were not going to desert us, even if we landed in trouble.  Talking about these leaders therefore, I'm not referring to every leadership, all leadership within the IFP.  I am specifically referring to all the leaders with whom we were working, pertaining to what we are here about.  People like Capt Langeni, Mr MZ Khumalo, the Honourable Gideon Zulu and Robert Mzimela; the local leadership at Esikhawini and even though they were not present at the first meeting at Ulundi where the meeting was convened for the formation of the hit squad.  And these are the people, such as Mrs Mbuyazi and VP Muyela and Chief Mathaba.

MR MOGADE: Thank you Mr Mkhize.   Mr Mkhize, once again during your evidence in chief in answer to a question as to the obligations that you were under to carry out your activities, you said that members of the hit squad would also be under the same obligation.  Now Mr Zwele Dlamini, the third applicant, would it be correct to say then that when you gave an order that a certain person would be eliminated or you received an order to eliminate a certain person, and you went to fetch Mr Zwele Dlamini, he would not question your authority or question why this person ought to be eliminated?

DJ MKHIZE: Zwele Dlamini is equally a foot soldier.  He knows that fully well.  I went to Ngwelisane to fetch him on several occasions to come and assist me as a person who was seconded here to work under these conditions.  And therefore there was nothing he could do as well to object to any instruction.  I myself take full responsibility of things that he did.  And therefore I must own up to those things.  Because I am the one who passed on instruction to reach Zwele Dlamini.

MR MOGADE: Okay.  Thank you Mr Mkhize, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mogade.  Mr Ngubane, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Now Mr Mkhize, you mentioned quite a number of incidents in which you were involved, and I would like to mention two incidents and in an attempt to refresh your memory and await your comment.  Do you recall an incident on the 23rd of February 1992 at the J1 hall where Dan Ndlovu was killed and burnt and a certain Mabiga girl was involved in the same incident; she was killed and burnt?

DJ MKHIZE: Mr Chairperson, I still remember the incident, but I don't know it.  I was not present but I know about it.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know who were the people that were responsible for that incident?

DJ MKHIZE: Mr Chairperson, I don't want to engage very much in that incident because I might commit myself, whereas I don't know.  I just think that in the next testimony - we still have many witnesses to come and testify.  I want to believe that there might be one among those who might be in a position to answer well to that.  I was not directly involved and I do not have certainty as to whether there is anyone among here who is directly involved.

MR NGUBANE: According to the information that you received, were your Caprivians involved in that incident?

DJ MKHIZE: No, not according to the instruction that came from me myself, having received it from my superiors.  I did not issue such kind of an instruction.  Not myself.

MR NGUBANE: My question is not whether you did give such an instruction.  My question is simply this: did any one of the Caprivians according to your knowledge participate in that incident?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngubane, can you properly clarify to Mr Mkhize whether you are referring to Caprivians who form part of his own hit squad which he commanded, or you are making enquiries about Caprivians who were staying in Esikhawini and in surrounding areas?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Were any of the Caprivians under your command involved in that incident?

DJ MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, the one member of the hit squad that was under my instruction is not necessarily a Caprivian.  I would like to explain this and clarify it, because when you are talking about Caprivians, you are referring to those who received Caprivi training.
	Among these hit squad members that I commanded there were not necessarily only Caprivians.  There were others who were not Caprivians and therefore I cannot say that there was no Caprivian among these people.  There is one who is involved, even though he was not a Caprivian but he was indeed under my command.

MR NGUBANE: Who is that person?

DJ MKHIZE: That is Israil Fangwane.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  And on the 26th of August 1992 the incident at Set Me Free Shebeen where about 11 people were killed, were you involved in that incident?

DJ MKHIZE: No Mr Ngubane, I was not involved.  I was very sick at the time.  It is something that I saw on television.  I was sick at Dundee and for about three months I was sick.  I was not even around Esikhawini.  That is something that I saw in the news on television.

MR NGUBANE: So I take it by what you are saying that you were not even involved in the planning or cover-up of that incident.

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, I agree with you.  I personally was not involved in the incident.

MR NGUBANE: Now Mr Mkhize, is it correct that after your arrest Mr Dalukolo Luthuli realized that you were in trouble and he approached you in jail and he indicated to you that the only way of getting out of this trouble is to apply for amnesty?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.  We discussed it at length and he agreed as one of the commanders that we should come and apply for amnesty.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  And at that stage Mr Luthuli did not speak of any apology or any reconciliation.  Is that correct?