Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: If I may recall, I'll say yes maybe two or three people, even though I don't have their names, but all I can remember is that there were people who died that day and that was the last funeral procession ever the IFP took to this cemetary going through - passing other sections.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you give an order to shoot at a funeral procession?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: As I said earlier that it's so unfortunate that we are talking of Thokoza and we are out of Thokoza and I'm having a map that I want to respond on.  There was a tendency within - whoever was controlling this violence helping the IFP that when there is a funeral they will go to that funeral and when they come back they will leave dead bodies on their way back to their stronghold, their hostels I mean.

CHAIRPERSON: Would they attack other people?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes people were being attacked.  As I say it was one of the patterns that was followed during the violence inside Thokoza so I gave orders that the funeral of the wife of Mbegesini Khumalo should be attacked and if the strength of the committee is not going to be shown that day it means we are not going to be in the position of stopping the IFP and whoever was helping them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Machitje, I think it is common knowledge that in this particular area there were pitched battles between members of the IFP and members of the ANC, not so?  For whatever reason, is that not correct?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was so that time.  The time you're referring to, that was the position, the political position in that area, correct?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes, I'm saying that was the situation but here I'm talking ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Now the people that these funeral attenders had a habit of shooting at and killing, whose members as far as you are concerned, would those deceased people be?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes, I want to say yes I'm aware that this Commission is having names of people on the other side of the IFP who are suspects and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Machitje, listen to me.  Don't try to understand the question or foresee what I'm getting at.  Let's just answer the question.  There was a pitched battle, the attenders of this funeral it was believed had established a habit of leaving dead bodies in their trail.  Did I understand you correctly?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the victims of those funeral attenders, was there a pattern that those victims would belong to a particular political party or at least support a particular party?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes victims would be normally members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja and these funeral attenders as it was perceived, did they belong to a particular political party?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes they were members of IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: And now I have established that even this funeral procession was part of a pitched political battle, do we follow each other?  And therefore the incident you refer to falls squarely within the Act.  I'm not trying to catch you out, I'm trying to establish whether the incident you refer to is something that we are able to deal with.  From your answers we are able to deal with it.  Do you follow?

MR MAKANJEE: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, I was taking notes.  I wasn't too - I wonder if you could repeat your question for me please?  I'm fully aware ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm explaining to the witness that the reason for my questions was to establish whether he was referring to an incident which is capable of being dealt with in terms of the Act.  That's all.  Can you proceed?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I think it does fall under because people died.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, having gone through the incidents that we have just gone through, would the panel require me to go into a background - setting a background picture?

CHAIRPERSON: I've made my views very clear from yesterday about what my attitude was in respect of the background.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody in South Africa today who does not know about what happened basically in Thokoza, then he was sleeping through that revolution.

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson, my client would like to address the panel.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: It's true that everybody knows of what happened inside, it was a part I think even the TRC missed some of the events that took place inside of Thokoza.  When you talk of methods which were taken inside, the TRC mentioned drive by shootings.  There are certain patterns which were used inside Thokoza and I went through the final report of the TRC and those patterns are not there.

CHAIRPERSON: And?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: And as I say there were patterns.  I wanted to give this panel those patterns which were followed during that period because I'm aware that they don't have on their records that pattern and one of the methods which was used, I indicated the funeral pattern which we stopped and there was no other funeral which took place inside, going through Khumalo to the Schoeman's graveyard.  But there was one tendency which even kids will know inside Thokoza that when the electricity goes off there will be an attack and there was a situation which even kids inside Thokoza will tell you about it that when telephones go out of Thokoza to reach people say in Johannesburg or Pretoria then there will be an attack.  So those are some of the things I wanted to reveal and talk about.  One last thing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You say the telephones were disconnected for a period and a pattern that developed during that period of disconnection there would be an attack?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: No here I'm not talking of the cutting, you know when you talk of cuts, it was clear that somebody was controlling this.  There will be lights off inside the township whereas inside lights will be on at the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I'm going to ask you similar questions that I asked you last time, that these attacks that you referred to during the black out, if I can call it that, and when the telephones didn't work, who as far as you were concerned were the victims and who were the attackers?  Was there any political undertones in those attacks?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: The victims normally will be members of the ANC and the general community at Thokoza because ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But now you're saying normally, were there also IFP people killed in those attacks?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And members of the community who didn't belong to any party?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: In a normal township sure, you cannot say everybody belongs to a certain organisation but I think and it's what I believe and the ANC had a stronger support inside the township.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, now the other thing that we should establish, these attackers, were they ordinary criminals, gangsters or were they ...(indistinct) with a political party or affiliation?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Earlier I said to you people that when I was released that as a trained person I could detect that people who are perpetrating this violence inside Thokoza are professional trained people and that is why at the end of the day people have this belief that when the violence started inside Thokoza it was ethnic cleansing and I don't believe that.

CHAIRPERSON: I need some clarification on that score.  Are you saying and please tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree, that these attackers were professional people who were party to what is commonly known as a third force or were they members of a political party who were perhaps trained by the third force?