Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

MS MBETHE: I met with a lot of comrades, members of the ANC and I had no way of telling which ones of them were MK, so I wouldn't say I met MK comrades, but I met comrades.

MR VISSER: I see.  Fine.  Would it be fair to say that you were not always entirely informed as to what each and every one of them was doing in Botswana?

MS MBETHE: I think to the same extent that even today none of us can say we know entirely what everyone else, even those who are our friends and relatives, are doing.

MR VISSER: Yes, they were hard times and one never knew when you spoke to somebody whether he might not be a spy, isn't that correct?

MS MBETHE: Of course.

MR VISSER: Of course.  Now you mentioned some names, Ms Mbethe, in your statement.  Can we just talk about the people that you mentioned.  You refer in paragraph 3 to Mr Thami Mnyele and you explain that he was a founder member of Medu, can you just tell us what that stands for?

MS MBETHE: Medu was a cultural organisation which had been formed by South African exiles together with people from other countries and Botswana people resident in Botswana in those years.

MR VISSER: Yes, but what ...

MS MBETHE: And it was an organisation that was basically looking in the areas of music, graphic arts, drama, writing, you know.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What does Medu stand for, Ms Mbethe?

MS MBETHE: Medu means roots.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the name of the organisation?  MEDU.

MS MBETHE: Of the organisation, ja, Medu Art Ensemble.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  It wasn't a union?

MS MBETHE: No, no.

MR VISSER: And it wasn't an abbreviation of a longer name?

MS MBETHE: No.

MR VISSER: Fine.  Thank you.  Now what I want to put to you in regard to Mr Mnyele, or let me rather ask you, did you consider Mr Mnyele to be a target of the South African Government because of his activities in Botswana?

MS MBETHE: I considered Mr Mnyele a target like all of us were, I mean all of us just knew that any minute it was likely that the South African Defence Force were likely to come in and just hit at people randomly, so he was also a target.

MR VISSER: Well you say randomly, but don't you mean to say that because you were attached to the ANC, isn't that what made you targets?

MS MBETHE: But often even people of those countries were killed, that's why I say randomly.

MR VISSER: Yes, oh, I see, alright.  You see because you say in paragraph 5 that you told Mnyele that you hoped that he was not speaking at his house as there had been an alert since the beginning of June of 1985.

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: What was that alert?

MS MBETHE: An alert, and I mean there were many alerts, this was one among many, an alert was when we had received information through our own intelligence structures that there was an intention on the part of the South African Forces to come in and hit and of course you know, people would just be told, every ANC household would be informed that there was this likelihood.

MR VISSER: Alright and did this alert refer to a raid or on a lesser scale of people who might be eliminated one by one or what did the alert, what was that about?  Was that about the expectation that there might be a raid?

MS MBETHE: The expectation that there might be an attack of one form or another.  We could never tell.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Mr Mnyele, did you know him well?

MS MBETHE: I knew Mr Mnyele.

MR VISSER: Did you know his wife?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Was she known as Rhona Segale?

MR MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you know about any of her activities?

MS MBETHE: I didn't work directly very closely with her as such, but for instance I knew that at that time she was on her way to the conference in Lusaka.

MR VISSER: Yes.  No she was not a victim of this raid in the sense that she was killed, you know that.

MS MBETHE: Ja, she was not there.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Do you, can you give any comment on an allegation that she was involved in providing crash courses in the use of hand grenades to comrades who were going to be infiltrated to South Africa?

MS MBETHE: I can't comment on that.

MR VISSER: Right.  And if it was suggested that Mr Mnyele himself was also involved in that, I suppose you also can't comment about that?

MS MBETHE: No.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Can we turn to the next page, paragraph 7, Mr Mike Hamlyn.  How well did you know him or how often did you have the occasion of meeting with him in Botswana?

MS MBETHE: Mike Hamlyn was one of us, he was one of the community of ANC people who lived in Botswana at the time, specifically involved in the Medu activities and he and Uriel for instance shared a house and that's the house I was saying often my children went to play, spend the afternoons at.  He was a generally very reserved person.  I mean he was not a talkative person, but he was a student.

MR VISSER: Yes and if I'm not mistaken that was one of the houses that was hit on the 14th of June.

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: That very house.  Did you regard him as a member of the ANC?

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Do you know whether he was trained by MK, or MK-trained, if I may use that expression?

MS MBETHE: I'm not aware of that.

MR VISSER: You're not aware of that.  Do you know whether he recruited people for intelligence work for the ANC or not?

MS MBETHE: I don't know.

MR VISSER: Or whether he conducted also crash courses for suicide squads, hand grenades?

MS MBETHE: I'm not aware of that.  I would be quite surprised.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And you say he lived in the servant's quarters.

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: I think that's what Mr Uriel Abrahamse refers to as the rooms at the back of the house.

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now Mr Dick Mtsweni is another person that you've mentioned Ms Mbethe.  I just want to ask you about him.  Well perhaps I can make this very short.  If any of the people that you mentioned were involved in MK activities, I don't suppose you would know about that.

MS MBETHE: No.

MR VISSER: You wouldn't.

MS MBETHE: No, but there are people where I can say I would be surprised.

MR VISSER: Yes, like Mr Hamlyn.

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now just one last issue then, you say in regard to George Pahle, you know that just before the raid, the South African Police agents, tried by failed to recruit him to work for them, I take it as an informer.  How did you come by that information?

MS MBETHE: Because it was something that irritated them for quite some time, for the few months before ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who was irritated?

MS MBETHE: This couple, the Pahles and you know they often talked to us about how they were getting these phone calls, in particular directed to George and I remember one day the call came while I was in their house, but George was not there and so while Lindi was on the phone telling them that George was not there, George walked in and so he went and took the call and he really told them off that day and I suspect that was the last call.  That's the call where in fact they said:  "George we hope you will not regret this", because they were consistently trying to suggest to him that he should come and meet them in Lobatse and maybe cross over to Mafikeng so that they could talk to him and see how he could work with them.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And logically, one assumed that they were police agents.

MS MBETHE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Although they could have been military agents as well, one would imagine.

MS MBETHE: You mean those - we don't know.  What I know is that one of them was a fellow who had become an askari.

MR VISSER: I see.  I see.  Who was he?

MS MBETHE: I don't remember the name.

MR VISSER: I see.  You wouldn't know for example from your own knowledge whether both George and Lindiwe were involved in intelligence work for the ANC?

MS MBETHE: I wouldn't know.

MR VISSER: Or whether they were military trained, for example?

MS MBETHE: No, I wouldn't know.