Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

ADV NTSEBEZA: But the question still remains, and I don't want to be engaged  in a debate of this nature.  Here are people who appear at a place where you had laid an ambush.  I am not saying this sadly  that, that was what - that was what is intended.  But  you were there waiting for a bus to come.   Which presumably would attack a police bus and you were ready for it.
Just when you begin to think that it is not going to happen, that maybe it is going to happen on another day, but whilst you are still in a state of readiness, you see a Kombi - just like the one that had been described - is going to be coming to do the attack.  You see from that Kombi, people coming out, people who might or might not have been answering to the description of the people you are expecting, but certainly young men.
Certainly people who, in your own evidence, or in the evidence of others - are behaving very suspicious.  Now what would the most natural reaction be of police officers who's intention is to arrest suspects.  Knowing that these people might well be the people - especially coming off a Datsun E20, such as you were expecting.  Walking suspicious, more or less the time that it was expected it was going to happen.
I still ask the question, wasn't the most logical thing to make sure that you confront those people in such a way that an event as has taken place, would not take place.

MNR ODENDAL: Mnr die Voorsitter ek het nooit gese dat ek mense uit  'n voertuig sien klim het nie.  Ek het gese ek het in die bosse geskuil, mense was besig om op te breek en ek het gesien die mense stap verby.  Ek het nooit gese dat ek iemand gesien het wat uit 'n voertuig uit klim nie.

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairman, I never said, I saw people climbing from a bus.  I was hiding in a bus.  People were withdrawing.  I saw those people walking by.  I never saw any people getting out of a bus.

MNR ODENDAL: Hulle het oorgestap die een het gemaak of hy water af slaan, die ander het aangestap, Kaptein Kleyn het by hulle stilgehou, hulle het die handgranaat gegooi en net daarna het daar 'n woeste skietery plaasgevind.

INTERPRETER: One of them pretended to urinate. The others were walking on.  Captain Kleyn stopped there.  They threw a hand-grenade and then it was that this shooting took place.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Advocate Potgieter?

ADV POTGIETER: Just a minute - thank you chairperson, thanks for that indulgence.
Mnr Odendal u het nou gese vir die Voorsitter dat u het nie geweet dis die mense nie.  U het nie geweet dis die aanvallers daai nie.

INTERPRETER: Mr Odendal you have just said - just told the Chairman that you did not know those were the people you were waiting for.  You did not know those were the attackers.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar dis mos nie korrek nie.

INTERPRETER: But that is not correct.

MNR ODENDAL: Ek se daar het mense wat verdagt voorgekom het, ek het nie geweet hulle is die aanvallers nie, ek het maar eers geweet hulle is die aanvallers na hulle die handgranaat gegooi het..

INTERPRETER: I said people who looked suspicious.  I did not say they were not the attackers.  I only realized that they were the attackers after they had thrown the hand-grenade.

ADV POTGIETER: Dis - dit is die punt wat ek met u wil debateer - dis nie korrek nie, want sersant Mbelo 'n deel van u eenheid was, optreder, u was in beheer van hulle gewees.  Hy het die mense geken.  Hy het die aanvallers het hy geken - hy het geweet dis die aanvallers daai wat daar afgeloop kom.

INTERPRETER: That is not correct, because Sergeant Mbelo, a part of your Unit, you were in charge of these people, they knew - he knew those people.  He knew the attackers - he identified them.

MNR ODENDAL: Maar ek ken nie eers vir Mbelo nie.

INTERPRETER: I don't know Sergeant Mbelo.

ADV POTGIETER: Dis - dis baie eienaardig.

INTERPRETER: This is really strange.

MNR ODENDAL: Ek ken nie Mbelo nie.

INTERPRETER: I don't know Mbelo.

MNR ODENDAL: Ek ken ook nie vir Bellingham nie.

INTERPRETER: I don't know Bellingham.

ADV POTGIETER: Want u sien dit is die - dit is die eienaardigheid wat aan u gestel was deur die Voorsitter.

INTERPRETER: You see, that is what is so strange.

ADV POTGIETER: Ek probeer net daardie prentjie finaal inkleur dat hier kom Kaptein Kleyn en hy spring uit sy voertuig uit en hy konfrontreer sommer die mense.  Dieselfde mense wie bekend is aan lede van die span waarin u van beheer is dat hulle die aanvallers is.  So hy gaan konfronteer hulle sommer miskien uit die bloute uit.  En nou gooi hulle die handgranaat - nou skiet - nou word hulle stukkend geskiet.

INTERPRETER: This is what the Chairman tried to explain.  I want to give you the full picture.  Now, here Captain Kleyn jumps from a vehicle - he confronts those people. The same people known to members of this team, who you were commanding, they identified them as the attackers.  And suddenly he started shooting.  And then they threw this hand-grenade and then they were shot to pieces.

MNR ODENDAL: Maar Mbelo was mos nie by my om vir my te se dis die mense nie.

INTERPRETER: Mbelo  wasn't there to tell me those were the people.
Mbelo was mos nie by my in die voertuig nie, ek het mos in die bos gele.

INTERPRETER: Mbelo wasn't with me in my vehicle.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar u sien dit is die eienaardig wat ek aan u stel, daar was mense op die toneel, deel van u span wat die mense geken het en dit was die maklikste ding op die aarde om vir hulle te los om observasie te doen, en te kyk of dit inderdaad die aanvallers is daardie en dan - dan tree jy op volgens daardie kennis.  Dan gaan jy nie mense konfronteer nie, uitklim en hulle gaan ondervra en visenteer soos u gese het wat Kaptein Kleyn wou gedoen het nie.

INTERPRETER: But this is what was so strange.  There were people on the scene, people in your team, who could identify those people.  It was the easiest thing to leave them to identify those people and then act accordingly.  Then you wouldn't confront those people - like you said Captain Kleyn wanted to do.

MNR ODENDAL: Hulle was nie by op die toneel nie, ons het op sekere strategetiese punte uitmekaar uit - weg van mekaar af gewees, dit was nie almal hier op mekaar by die hoek nie.  U sien dis die...[tussenbeide]

INTERPRETER: We were positioned in certain strategic places.  We were not all together on that one specific point.

ADV POTGIETER: Ek besef dit.

INTERPRETER: I realize that.

ADV POTGIETER: Ek besef dit - ek besef dit,  ek vra net vir u die eienaardigheid van die optrede om die mense net sommer skielik te gaan konfronteer, waar jy eintlik hulle wil arresteer.  En u se maar u het nie geweet wie die mense is nie.

INTERPRETER: I realize that and I am just asking - it is extraordinary just to suddenly confront those people.  Where actually you just wanted to arrest them.  And you said you did not know who those people were.

MNR ODENDAL: Maar wat moet Kaptein Kleyn gedoen het, hy moet tog daar by die mense stilgehou het en hulle ondervra het omdat hulle verdagt lyk.

INTERPRETER: What did Captain Kleyn then had to do?  He had to stop, he had to question them.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar - maar hy was mos deel van 'n span gewees.  Hy was mos nog  onder - onder bevel gewees, hy het mos - kan mos nie net sommer doen wat hy wil nie.

INTERPRETER: But he was part of a team, he was under instructions.  He couldn't do whatever he liked.

MNR ODENDAL: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Hy kon - hy kon mos nou - hy het - was hy in radio verbinding met u gewees as die bevelvoerder?

INTERPRETER: Was he connected by radio  - connected by radio to you - you, as the commanding officer?

MNR ODENDAL: Ja ek glo hy was in 'n  - ons het radio verbinding met mekaar gehad.

INTERPRETER: Yes, we were connected by radio.