Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson. If I may take you back to the discussion we had a little earlier, page 22, the statement accredited by Mzwai Poliso about discovering the information "at any cost". There are three bullets or points there, and this is really a question for comment, but I want to follow it up with a second question. That is, is this contextualisation of torture, not virtually universal in all cases of torture? Especially the second and the third bullet, that people say but we need to obtain the information quickly, or remember these people who claim that they have been tortured or might have been tortured, have been uncritically portrayed as innocent victims, although they have done atrocious things. I am asking this, because we find this also in our human rights violations hearings, which is the build-up to my real question, that people come before us as victims of torture, but on occasion, and the structure is not such that we can really get to the various roles or dual roles of people who were both victims and perpetrators, that we do find on follow-up questions that people admit, for instance, to having participated or actively led a necklacing, but come before us as a victim of torture.
Now the question really, I think, I will follow through again when we get to reparations and concept of victims, but I think it is relevant at this stage, is to whether people referred to here, that were subjected to the kind of treatment on which it is commented here, would the ANC see them as victims? Because in terms of the Act, I would read them indeed to be victims. But at the same time, they might be seen as perpetrators of human rights violations.
If there is - if the delegation is not in a position to comment now, I would urge that where they talk, promise the follow-up presentation, that they look at the reconciliation also with regard to this dual role which I think we find much more than we care to admit at this stage. But if there is a comment at this stage I would be happy to hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Matthews Phosa?

MR PHOSA: Well, I think if you took the particular case you are referring to of McKenzie and many others, and you check from where he came from, and you have heard that the car he was using had a bomb in it, which exploded in Botswana, which killed people, now if you trace his steps back you find that he has got a trail of victims who are entitled to appear here and who will submit, you need to take their cases as those of victims, before you even begin to define him, and people like himself, who ended up in this type of situation.
Now again, in our hands he becomes a victim, to the extent of which there have been violations. He becomes a victim. But he has got dual capacities. He is a perpetrator of the worst kind and a victim too.

CHAIRPERSON: Mac Maharaj?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: May I just make an observation. In the documents we have supplied, there is a case study number 5. I think it would be important to look at that case study to try, in the light of the questions raised by Mr Malan, because you will see there that before the person came into our hands, he had carried out harassment, petrol-bombing and killing of a large number of people inside South Africa. Now how should we see him? A victim recruited by the security branch under duress or a person who is the perpetrator of gross violations, because he killed for no reason, except that his superiors said kill and some I don't believe even his superiors told him to kill them, he just killed them?
But we in general, the framework in which we examine the problem, is that we said some of the people that have come as agents have themselves been brutally treated by the apartheid authorities. We need to take that into account. 	Secondly, we said we need to take into account that the overwhelming number of informers being sent into our ranks are sent so ill-prepared, and that meant that the enemy did not care for Black lives that it was sending to us. Some of them were even told I think you will be found out. They were sent on the most reckless missions. Now to anybody sending them it would appear obvious that they would be apprehended by us and discovered to be informers.
We are to say it is important for us not to lose sight of the politics of our struggle. That is why we did rehabilitate so many people who were confessed agents. So the question you have raised of perpetrator or victim maybe leads to a problem, but we do accept that we need to help perpetrators to be rehabilitated, to correct themselves. But we believe that the victims need reparations, and maybe the Commission has to make this judgment in particular instances. But I think in general it would be a bit problematic in the context of our struggle to find a clear guideline. There are clear cases and there are grey cases where the issues are a bit more dubious.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hlengiwe.

MS MKHIZE: Just to go back to the question on gender. I will just make a request that we really appreciate your co-operation in terms of giving us the specifics. Like, we know and we accept that women were abused, not only outside but also here, but whilst it is important to have specifics like specific methods of torture used, gender specific methods of torture used, there are many other methods which were used and were unique to women, but that is not necessarily for today.
My last question really is to ask a general question, whether you would sincerely say you have opened the camps to the people of South Africa. From our human rights violations hearings the question of what happened outside camps, of what happened outside, that is in the ANC camps in particular, is like a dark cloud which is just hanging over us. We find it difficult to give the victims the specifics and they have appeared before us, and we accept what we have been given. My question is whether there are any other, from your documents, policies, practices or whatever, which the people of this country need to hear about the camps?