Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR STEPHENS: Well I can only say that's - like I said the  1/2  hour, it could have been 10 or 15 minutes either way, I'm not sure.

MR BERGER: Even on the 10/15 minutes, not a single marcher supports you.

MR STEPHENS: Okay, I could be wrong there, I don't know, but that's all that I saw at the time.  At that stage 1 minute could have been 5 minutes, I don't know, but I saw the marchers, the marchers were there.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, I put it to you that you're not being truthful at all.

MR STEPHENS: I'm being as truthful as I remember.  But you must remember it happened four years ago, I don't think about this all the time.  At that stage it might have felt like a long time.

MR BERGER: You also did not see a group of marchers coming ...(tape ends)

MR STEPHENS: At that stage I don't think I did see them, I just saw them basically in King George.  But like I was saying earlier as well if you read my statement, we were serving customers, it was basically business as usual to a certain degree.  So I just kept looking up and I'd just see marches getting bigger and bigger every now and then, that's all that I saw.

MR BERGER: You agreed with me earlier on this morning that it was not business as usual, in fact it was quite quiet you said.

MR STEPHENS: Yes it was, but we were carrying on as usual, it was just a quiet period, because we do have quiet periods in the shop as well, which is still business as usual.

MR BERGER: We know that a large group of marchers came along De Villiers Street from West to east, and congregated in the intersection.  You never saw that, correct?

MR STEPHENS: No.

MR BERGER: Now your evidence is that this group that came down from Noord Street to the intersection of De Villiers and King George, stopped for a couple of minutes in the intersection, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you were observing them, and yet you say nothing happened in that intersection for those minutes.

MR STEPHENS: Not that I can recall, no.

MR BERGER: For example, you did not see two white policemen in uniform, running up from Plein Street up King George to De Villiers ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: No ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: With arms outstretched in an attempt to keep the marchers away from Shell House.  You never saw that?

MR STEPHENS: I can't recall that, no.

MR BERGER: You never saw a tall, thin, white man with long hair, arms outstretched, trying to prevent the marchers from coming towards Shell House?  You never saw that either, did you?

MR STEPHENS: I did not.

MR BERGER: And all of this was going on in the intersection at the time when the group was also in that intersection.

MR STEPHENS: Could be, I don't know, but I never saw it.

MR BERGER: You never saw the two white policemen being pushed out of the way by this group?

MR STEPHENS: Nope.

MR BERGER: You never saw the group engulfing this tall, thin, white man with the long hair?

MR STEPHENS: No I did not.

MR BERGER: And yet you say this group wasn't attacking.  How can you say that if you never saw these significant moments?

MR STEPHENS: I can only see what I saw, and at - I didn't see them attacking anybody.  They could have, I didn't say they never attacked anybody, I said I never saw them attack anybody.  Whether they did or didn't, that's another thing.  If you got other witnesses that did see it, well maybe it did happen, but I never saw it personally, so I can't say it did or it did not happen.

MR BERGER: You also saw approximately 10 blue uniformed policemen at the corner of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got to the intersection?

MR STEPHENS: Yes I could have.

MR BERGER: Would you like me to refresh your memory?

MR STEPHENS: Look here, it was a long time ago, if I said it at that stage, it could have been.  I had seen Policemen the whole day in small groups of two's, maybe fours milling around there during the morning.

MR BERGER: Page 2529, top of the page,
"You saw approximately 10 blue uniformed Policemen standing in the area of the intersection of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got there?"
		Answer:  "Correct."
Do you not recall that Mr Stephens?

MR STEPHENS: Not right now, no.

MR BERGER: You told the inquest that there were three policemen on the inside of King George, and two or three on the western side of King George just standing looking at the marchers.

MR STEPHENS: Ja there were - at that stage there were policemen around there, but to tell you the exact amount now, I'd be lying because I can't remember.

MR BERGER: But you see, there weren't these policemen, three on the east and two/three on the west standing looking at the marchers up there at the intersection of King George and De Villiers.  It didn't happen.  So where do you get this evidence from Mr Stephens?

MR STEPHENS: I can only tell you that's what I saw at the time.

MR BERGER: But the fact is that it never happened.

MR STEPHENS: Is it a fact?  So in fact there were no policemen there, is that what you're saying, is it a fact?

MR BERGER: Not at that intersection.  The only two policemen at that intersection were Van Greenen and Van Reenen, the two that I described to you, who ran up from King George towards De Villiers with arms outstretched to stop the marchers, and you never saw them, but you saw others.

MR STEPHENS: Maybe they were part of them that I saw.  It actually says over here
"And where they still there when the marchers reached De Villiers Street?", and I said:  "I cannot recall that."
If you actually read there.  So at the time - I'm not saying that they were there, cause I actually said "I cannot recall that."

MR BERGER: Yes but if you'll turn over the page to page 2530 Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: The Court asked you
"There were a couple of Police where?  What is - you seem to have a picture in your mind of policemen."
		Answer:  "Say four - say two or three on either side of King George; three on the east side, two or three on the west side."

MR STEPHENS: Basically ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: And then I ask you
"Just standing there looking at the marchers?"
		Answer:  "Basically yes."
Then we go on a little bit further,
"You did not see them trying to control the marchers?"
		Answer:  "No."
		"Then at some point after a few minutes of pause, the group crossed De Villiers towards King George, correct?"  
		"Correct."  
Sorry, towards Plein, you say "yes" towards Plein.

MR STEPHENS: Can I just read this quickly?  Okay I've said here,
"And when the group got to De Villiers Street, you cannot recall seeing any Policemen in the vicinity of the group?  No, I do not know.  What I can remember is there was a couple of Policemen there, whether they moved around the corner or went away, I do not know."
That's what I'm saying, so by the time the marchers got there, the policemen moved away.  Does it not say there, unless I'm reading it incorrectly, I don't know, your Worship - Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On a point of clarification, Mr Berger, how soon would you say, Mr Stephens, after observing the uniformed policemen, did you notice the marchers converging at the intersection of King George and Plein Street?

MR STEPHENS: Just repeat that please.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How soon after you had observed the uniformed policemen, did you then notice the marchers converging at the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MR STEPHENS: They'd already converged on De Villiers and King George, they had already converged when the guard came out.  And he was - and that's when he got on his knees, on his haunches and he aimed towards them, and then when they walked across, that's when he started firing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I probably haven't made myself quite clear.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

SISI KHAMPEPE: See, in your - you've just stated to Mr Berger that you agree with what you've said before the inquest court, that you saw approximately 10 blue uniformed policemen.