Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

MR RICHARD: Now, in your evidence-in-chief, it was said and I gained the impression and I'm now clarifying, that when Mr McBride or Mr Webster, either jointly or severally, collected material, you did not know what the material was intended for, other than the general purpose of what the material was used for?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Now to be specific, did anyone ever tell you that specifically a car bomb attack was being planned in and during the period between March 86 to June 86?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: No one told me about that.

MR RICHARD: Would there ...(intervention).

JUDGE PILLAY: Why did you train Mr McBride in creating car bombs?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: When I trained somebody about the making of bombs, that does not necessarily mean that he's going to make that car bomb the following day or the next week.  That would depend on my Commander, his plans, so my task was only to train the person the way it was required from me.

JUDGE PILLAY: Right, I just want to find out then, when you train him, when you're satisfied that he's able to do that, you expect him to use that knowledge at some time or other in the future, not so?  You're not going to train him for nothing.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

JUDGE PILLAY: Yes.  Yes, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: How many people did you train to make car bombs?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I cannot remember the number.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give us an approximation, perhaps, more or less?  Was it a great number of people?  More than 10, more than 100, just one?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: It can be about 7, between 4 and 7, but I am not sure about the number, but that can be between 4 and 7.

MR RICHARD: Now it's true to say that you not only supplied Mr McBride with material, that you supplied other people as well, isn't that correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, I know you can't give me a precise answer, out of the material you supplied during the first half of 1986, how many car bombs approximately could have been made?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: There is no number of kilograms that you use when making the car bombs, it depends on the person who has reconnoitred the place, who knows the target, that's the person who knows how many or how much kilograms will be needed for that particular target, I cannot precisely say.

MR RICHARD: So, I understand from your answer that of the equipment you supplied to various operatives during the first half of 1986, many car bombs could have been made.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: You supplied various people with ordnance, materials, explosives, hand grenades, etc. during the first half of 1986.  If you take the total quantity of materials you supplied to the various people you did supply during the first half of that year, say till the end of June that year, my proposition which I put to you is, is it not true that many car bombs could have been constructed out of that material?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I have thought that I have already explained that.  I said you cannot precisely say how many kilograms are going to be used for that car bomb, it will depend on  the person who has reconnoitred the target, how many kilograms he wants for that particular target.

MR RICHARD: Now, would you know when people or a person, or a group came and drew equipment from you, whether they were going to make a car bomb, or go and blow up a bridge, or blow up a building?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I can give you the material that you use for the car bomb, but you're the person who's going to use that material.  When you find yourself in that particular situation, if you realise that it will not be necessary to make a car bomb, you can also use that material in other targets, on numerous occasions, so when a person comes to collect material, that does not mean that when he comes to collect that material he's going to use it for the making of a car bomb.

MR RICHARD: And it also means that when you give material to a particular operative, you've got no particular way of knowing what he's going to use it for, you've already said, it's not your part of the actions, it's our Commander's.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, that's correct.  As far as my knowledge, at least I would know that he may use that material for a particular, for making a particular thing, but I would not precisely know what he's going to make.

MR RICHARD: Mow, did anyone ever report to you what either Mr Webster or Mr McBride or any one of their unit's members did while in South Africa?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: In our discussions with our Commander, Aboobaker Ismail, there were things that he would discuss with us.  He would tell us that certain things had happened, like for example when the transformers were made at substations, he would discuss such things.

MR RICHARD: Does that mean that you were told that Mr Webster's unit, to which Mr McBride belonged, had blown up a transformer?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, our Commander discussed that with us.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now for the sake of clarity, you say you trained various people and now I want to know, did you train Mr Webster, Gordon Webster?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Like I've already said, Gordon Webster was already trained, so my training in Botswana, I cannot say that was training as such, it was just to remind him of certain things that he already knew at that time.

MR RICHARD: Now I'm going to put it very simply.  Did you or did you not know that Mr Webster had trained Mr McBride?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I did know.

MR RICHARD: Then my next question is, was there any need for you to train Mr McBride?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, there was a need.

MR RICHARD: Why was there a need?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I have already explained that Gordon Webster already had the knowledge, he was already trained, so I had to ensure that he remembered certain things, so when he came to bring comrade McBride in Botswana, I had to ensure that comrade McBride understood everything that he was told by him, so that I could be satisfied that he was told everything.

MR RICHARD: Now how did you go about that task of finding out whether Mr Webster had properly trained Mr McBride?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I would ask him questions concerning matters that I was supposed to train him in.  That was just to ensure that he understood everything that he was told.

MR RICHARD: And what opinion did you form of Mr McBride's training by Mr Webster?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I was satisfied.

MR RICHARD: So to go back to the beginning of the sequence, did you teach Mr McBride how to do anything, if you were satisfied that Mr Webster had trained Mr McBride?

INTERPRETER: The applicant does not understand the question.

MR RICHARD: After you had questioned Mr McBride, so as to check that he had been properly trained by Mr Webster, I understand you were satisfied that Mr Webster had done his job well and Mr McBride was properly trained.  Is my understanding correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: It then follows that there was no need particularly for you to train Mr McBride.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That was not so.

MR RICHARD: That is why I asked you, what, after you had satisfied yourself as to the quality of Mr McBride's training, if anything, did you teach Mr McBride?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.