Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MR STRYDOM: You obviously know Prince Vanana Zulu?  Now do you know if he was at the hostel on the 17th June 1992?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I am sure he was not at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where he was?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: He had informed me that he would be going home.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me Mr Strydom, may I just get clarity here, in view of the questions which were asked by the judge and the explanations, is this evidence leading in support of his application or maybe just to give his version of the events at the hostel?

MR STRYDOM: Yes the evidence is given in support of his application.  I know the difficulties he will have with his application but also to give general evidence about what happened in the hostel which can be used for the other applicant's applications.

MR SIBANYONI: I take it at the end your argument will be to say you proceed with an application for amnesty in his respect?

MR STRYDOM: Yes I will do so, that will be legal argument but his evidence will stand and I will argue at the end of the case that his evidence should be accepted and if his evidence is accepted it can be used in support of some of the other applicants' evidence.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: You said that you are sure that Vanana Zulu was not at the hostel.  How can you be so sure?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Let me just repeat the question, you say you are sure.  How come that you are so sure?  Did you tell him anything, did you see him leave or what?  How do you know he was not there?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: He informed me that he will be going and he is my neighbour.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know when he returned to the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes he came back on the first Monday after the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person who stayed at the hostel a certain time, Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I think I remember him.

MR STRYDOM: Who was responsible to allocate rules in the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It was myself and my committee.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember allocating a room to Nosenga?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I remember.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if it was before or after the attack on Boipatong?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It was after the attack.

MR STRYDOM: During that period, I'm again referring to June 1992, did you know Victor Kezwa?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask you this?  The committee that you're referring to, would that be the Hostel Management Committee?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you keep a record of who is allocated a room there at the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to those records?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: These records were confiscated by the police, to this day I don't know what happened to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, apart from those records that were kept by you and obviously by your Committee, were there ever any other records?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes we used to have a hostel report that was issued at least every Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was this computer printout issued from?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: This report used to come from the hostel manager.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was the hostel manager based?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: He used to be based at the main building which was our head office.

CHAIRPERSON: Head office of Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It was the main office of Iscor.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay so the hostel manager is the other person who would have records of who was staying at the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

MR STRYDOM: The question - I don't know if I asked the question but I'll ask it again, during that period did you know Victor Kezwa?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this Mr Strydom, what is the significance of Kezwa?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson there's been questions asked and certain statements put that Kezwa was also part of the attack on the day and I just want to find out from this applicant if he could say anything about it if Kezwa was in the hostel on that particular day or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Each and every witness is being asked about Kezwa.  We all know that Kezwa is now deceased.  Does anything really turn on Kezwa?

CHAIRPERSON: Chairperson it may point to credibility because Mr Masenga says that Kezwa was one of the people that took part in the attack and the other applicant says no and I've got now a witness here that can corroborate those applicants.  But I will leave it at that, I think there's been lots of evidence about the fact that Kezwa was not there.  I'll argue about that later on.

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard a great deal of evidence about Kezwa, they were saying he was in prison at the time.  Yes but anyway if you want to put the question put it by all means but let us please get to the point.

MR STRYDOM: Thanks Chairman, so I'll just ask the question.  On the 17th June 1992, during that period, did you see Victor Kezwa at the hostel or not?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

MR STRYDOM: In Mr Nosenga's statement it is stated here that Eugene Terre'blanche, or the AWB, came to the hostel to give the people food.  Do you have any knowledge about that?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

MR STRYDOM: The day after the attack were you at the hostel or not?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I was at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see Mr Themba Khosa after the attack, soon after the attack?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: When did you see him and where?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I still remember very well it was on the 19th on a Friday when we went to the police.  It was myself and Humphrey Nglovu.  Yes Themba Khosa was present as well.

MR LAX: Sorry, can you please repeat the one part of that answer, I didn't hear it very clearly, something interfered with the translation.  Something about the police, just repeat that again please?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I still remember very well on the 19th myself, Humphrey Nglovu and Themba Khosa and Anina the attorney and the Ambassador V.V. Mvalasi, all of us went to the police.

MR STRYDOM: Do you have personal knowledge of anything, the loot, anything that came from Boipatong that was burnt afterwards?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Advocate Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: No questions thank you.

MR DA SILVA: May it please you Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva, you must bear in mind that this witness has as far as I recall, he has not said anything of and concerning the military.

MR DA SILVA: I'm quite aware of that, there are just two questions I have to the witness Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mthembu, you said that you were always in the office.  Do I make the correct deduction that this office was at the Kwamadala Hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It was at the gate inside the hostel.

MR DA SILVA: And for the work that you did in that office did you receive a salary from Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, can you recall who was the hostel manager as on the 17th June 1992?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Dries Steenkamp was the supervisor and the hostel manager was Swiss Basson.  Swiss or Blatts Basson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, are you still employed by Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether these two gentlemen are still with Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Dries Steenkamp retired and Basson was suspended from work, I'm not sure whether he is back or not but he can be located any time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is it possible - do you know of your own knowledge whether the hostel records of 1992, particularly June ones are still available?