Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR PATEL: I call Mr Nicolas Zwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zwane, what language do you speak?

MR ZWANE: I'll render my testimony in Zulu.

NICOLAS ZWANE: (sworn states)

MR PATEL: Mr Zwane, where were you born?

MR ZWANE: In Ermelo.

MR PATEL: And have you lived your entire life in the Ermelo area?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, what was your occupation?

MR ZWANE: I was a teacher in Ermelo.

MR PATEL: And what is your present occupation?

MR ZWANE: I'm still a teacher.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, were you a member of any political organisation?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I was.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Committee which organisation were you a member of?

MR ZWANE: I was a member of the Civic Organisation in Ermelo, which is now called SANCO it's still a Civic Organisation.  I was also a member of the ANC.

MR PATEL: Did you hold - were an officer bearer of any of these organisations?

MR ZWANE: Yes, within the ANC I was just an ordinary member or supporter and within SANCO I was a Deputy Chairperson.

MR PATEL: Now you've heard the evidence of Mr Mndebele regarding the Background Statement.  Before we get there, there is some discrepancy between the evidence of Mr Mndebele and Mr Mkhwanazi with regard to who went to Mr Chris Hani.  What is your recollection of the events, who was it that attended the meeting with Mr Chris Hani in Johannesburg in Shell House?

MR ZWANE: It was John Mndebele, myself Nicolas Zwane, as well as Silas Nkonyane.

MR PATEL: Now with regard to the Background Statement that I read and Mr Mndebele confirmed, do you agree with that Background Statement insofar as it relates to you?

MR ZWANE: Could you repeat your question please?

MR PATEL: The Background Statement, the one which, if I may direct your attention to, which appears on pages 9 including Exhibit A and A1 up to page 17, 18 sorry, 19.  That is the Background Statement I read and Mr Mndebele confirmed.  Do you recall being present at that time?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I do recall I was present.

MR PATEL: Do you confirm the correctness of that statement insofar as it relates to you?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I do confirm.

MR PATEL: In particular, do you confirm paragraph 16 which appears on page 13 of the Background Statement?

MR ZWANE: Are you referring to this bundle that I have in front of me?

MR PATEL: Yes.  On page 13, paragraph 16.

MR ZWANE: There are certain numbers written in big letters as well as small letters, could you please assist me in pinpointing the correct paragraph you're referring to?  Yes, I do agree with what is contained herein.

MR PATEL: According to the schedule which appears on page 20 to 22 of the bundle, your name appears under paragraph 3 at the bottom of page 20, is that you?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct, this is my name although there's a slight spelling mistake but I think this is my name.  My name is Nicolas Mfundisi Zwane. There is a spelling error which Mtundisi.  They have used a "t" instead of an "f".

MR PATEL: We apologise for the error.  According to the schedule you are claiming amnesty for the murder of Jwi Zwane, do you confirm that?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: The attempted murder of Happy Mshlongo, a Sibusiso Tito Nkosi and Eric Nkosi, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: That is true.

MR PATEL: For the murder of Chris Ngwenya, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: You also claim amnesty for the murder of Lindiwe Nkosi, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: And you also claim amnesty for the attempted murder of Thembisile Nkambule?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: And finally you claim amnesty for a general instruction to set up self-defence units who were to illegally arm themselves and to protect themselves in the community from unlawful attacks and at all costs to achieve stability in the area, do you confirm that?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: Now in your Special Committee you - as we understand the evidence thusfar, Mr Mkhwanazi was to have Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya assassinated, was that the instruction given to Mr Mkhwanazi by your  committee?

MR ZWANE: Could you please repeat the names?  Yes, it was Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya.

MR PATEL: Did you know that Javi Mkhwanazi was to instruct Mr Gushu?

MR ZWANE: That is correct, I knew that.

MR PATEL: And did you know Mr Gushu at the time?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I knew him as a comrade or a fellow comrade.  That is about all I know about him or I knew about him at that time.

MR PATEL: Did you know Chris Ngwenya?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I did.

MR PATEL: And did you know Mr Jwi Zwane?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I did.

MR PATEL: And did you know which political organisations they belonged to?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I knew they were IFP members which was working hand in hand with the Black Cats.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Did you know if they held any positions in either the Black Cats or the IFP?

MR ZWANE: All I knew was that they were Inkatha members but with regard to the Black Cats they were the leaders of the group.

MR PATEL: As member of the ANC, how did you view people belonged to the IFP and/or the Black Cats?

MR ZWANE: I viewed them as our opposers as well as people who were against our policies and then with regard to the Black Cats, I think I regarded them as our adversaries as the ANC.

MR PATEL: And the situation in Westvilleton(?), Ermelo at the time, how did you view that situation?

MR ZWANE: I could say that there was violence, people were being killed and innocent people were becoming victims of murder.

MR PATEL: Who according to you and your knowledge was responsible for these acts of violence and murders?

MR ZWANE: It's the leaders of the Black Cats, that is Jwi Zwane as well as Chris Ngwenya.

MR PATEL: In issuing out these instructions as part of the Special Committee, did you act out of personal gain, did you act for personal gain or any malice?

MR ZWANE: No, that is not true.  There was absolutely no personal gain or monies but we were protecting ourselves as well as the community within which we lived and the surrounding areas and members of the ANC.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Committee what the situation was after the assassination of Mr Jwi Zwane insofar as violence is concerned?

MR ZWANE: After Jwi Zwane's death I think the violence became even worse and it was clear to us that the members of the Black Cats were now launching revenge attacks but after quite a few days the violence continued as before.

MR PATEL: In the Background Statement there is talk of mediation between the two factions that existed, did you represent your party, the ANC at these meetings?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I was part.

MR PATEL: And who according to your knowledge represented the Black Cats of the IFP member?

MR ZWANE: With regard to the negotiations with the IFP there would be Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya but there was an instance where some people from Ulundi came.  I remember Mr Mhlango was present.  I do not remember the rest but many a times when we negotiated with members of the IFP it would be Chris or Jwi.

MR PATEL: Mr Jwi Zwane, did you know him personally?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I did know him personally.

MR PATEL: Do you know if he had a business?

MR ZWANE: I've never seen Jwi's business.  I do not know of its existence.

MR PATEL: Were you prosecuted, have you been prosecuted for any of the offences for which you claim amnesty?

MR ZWANE: No, I haven't been prosecuted.

MR PATEL: Have you got any personal knowledge of any complicity by the South African Police, with regard to their assistance of the Black Cats?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I do have plenty of information with regard to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've been asked about personal knowledge.

MR ZWANE: Personal information.

MR PATEL: Do you have personal knowledge of South African Police complicity?