Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I would like to state to you that if you were a person of integrity, who had remorse, you would have told your legal representative that you were going to plead guilty.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, I wasn't accused of complicity sir.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: When you filled your vehicle with petrol, was it done before your co-accused arrived at your house, or afterwards?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Afterwards sir.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: What you are saying is they arrived at your house, they said we must go and fill the vehicle?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No, nobody told me to go and fill up the vehicle with fuel.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I am stating to you that it was not at all raised in the trial that the vehicle had been filled with fuel to drive to Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: So you are admitting that nowhere at the trial or in your statements did you refer to the filling of your vehicle?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You were extensively cross-examined in this regard, why didn't you ever mention it during your trial?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I saw no use of involving putting petrol into my car with the incident.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Well sir, you pointed out or indicated to the police minute by minute account of the road travelled, of the events that took place and nowhere along this road indicated to them, did you mention that you had put in fuel?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: It might have slipped my mind, but they asked me about the incident at Devon.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Sir, you said that you drove to Pretoria, it is a fairly long trip.  What was the conversation about?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, it was about the firearms we had to obtain in Pretoria sir.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Was extensive planning done as to who did what?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No sir.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you also take a uniform with you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you put on this uniform at all?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: The attack in Pretoria, would the members then stop somewhere to put on their uniforms for the purposes of this attack?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I really can't tell Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Let me put the question as follows, did you stop somewhere to put on the uniforms on your way to Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Why then is an attack in Pretoria planned without uniforms, but you do wear uniforms for Devon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, Mr De Meillon instructed us to do so.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I will take you to the incident briefly, just immediately after the two other applicants had run back, after you had heard the shots, did Mr De Meillon then tell you that he had killed the policeman by shooting him?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you at that stage, see whether your co-applicant had seen whether Mr De Meillon, did you see whether his firearm had been fired?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No sir, I didn't.  Mr Holder's firearm hadn't been, I didn't look whether Mr Holder's firearm had been fired.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You say you didn't agree that somebody had to be shot and killed during this incident?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: So shortly after Mr De Meillon had arrived back in the vehicle, did you fight with him, did you ask him whether he was mad, asked him why he had done it, anything like that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I can't remember whether I did say anything Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you speak to him at all about the fact that he had killed this person by shooting him?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I don't believe so sir.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: It is your vehicle, did you, why didn't you take Mr De Meillon to a police station and say this person has just admitted to me that he had killed a person?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, I was scared, I didn't know what to do.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You said you were frightened, yet you could find the road to Van Rensburg's house to go and drop him off?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes sir, I live in Secunda and I know the streets around the area.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: So what you would say is that you wouldn't be able to find the police station, but that you would be able to find Van Rensburg's place?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, as I had stated sir, I was frightened and I didn't think clearly at that stage.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Could you please repeat, I couldn't hear?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I said I had already said that I was frightened and that I didn't have clarity in my mind, and I - because of the fright, I didn't think clearly.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: When you dropped him off, and you were over your first fright, why didn't you go to the police then?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, I had to wait for instructions from my Officer.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: At that stage sir, did you feel that he had committed a murder or did you feel that he had acted correctly?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, I felt that he had committed a murder.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Sir you say you felt that he had committed a murder, and yet you go and throw away the firearm that was part of the evidence against him?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, because my Officer had instructed me to do so.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Well, I think that a citizen of a country that had seen a murder being committed, would come and hand in that firearm with the police?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I was frightened sir, I didn't know what to do at any rate.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Sir, do you have any written proof that you are a member of the AWB?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Do you have any proof that at any stage, you had paid membership fees to them?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I only paid membership fees when I joined.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Do you have a receipt for these fees, monies?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No sir.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Are you going to call anyone of the AWB to testify that you are a member?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: So what guarantee do we have that you were at all a member of the AWB?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Just my word, Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: It is correct if you say that you hadn't undergo any training with the AWB?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Except with the vehicle movements, Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Sir, could members who were not members of the AWB, or who had attended the meetings, also participate in this action?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Van Schalkwyk.  Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No thank you, Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Van Zyl, at Devon, while you were waiting in the car, were you able to see Mr De Meillon and Mr Holder throughout until they arrived at the house?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Why was it not possible for you to see the house?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: It was very dark and I was approximately 500 metres from the guard house Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: When you heard these shots, these gunshots, were you able to see from where they were coming?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you see a house going off, the lights going off at a certain house?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: You say you followed the instruction of Mr De Meillon because he was a Commander, did I understand you correctly?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words you wouldn't disagree with his instructions?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: With certain instructions, I wouldn't agree.

MR SIBANYONI: But I understand you, a person has to obey all instructions from a Commander?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Not to kill innocent people Mr Chair.