Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

GEORGE BIZOS: It is - counsel for the Committee, Mr Chairman, can call the witnesses.  We will confine ourselves once they have taken the oath, to ask and to confirm certain evidence that they gave at the inquest.  If that is not accepted, our learned friends will have an opportunity to cross-examine them, but there admissions in that evidence which we consider vital to the just decision of this case, and relying on our learned friends that they would call these witnesses, we came here to hear them and we would not like to loose the value of those concessions that they made at the inquest Mr Chairman, and we would urge that counsel for the Committee can call them, should they not ask them anything more that identify themselves, and give us an opportunity to ask a few questions of each one of them Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll take a short adjournment to consider this matter.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Sergeant van Reenen, is he here?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been subpoenaed to come and give evidence in this matter, will you just come forward please.
We've considered the request on whether questions should be put to you or not, and to Sergeant Gollach and Van Greunen.  The Committee has decided that since you've been subpoenaed to attend, and that you are here, that the applicants be afforded to put such questions to you as they wish so that we may have a full picture of what happened.  Do you understand?

MR VAN REENEN: (Duly sworn in, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Now put such questions as are relevant to the purposes of this inquiry.

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Inspector van Reenen, we spent many hours in the inquest court, we are not going to spend that long here today.  I just want to remind you of a few aspects of the evidence that you gave in the course of the inquest and to ask you to confirm whether it is correct.

MR VAN REENEN: Fine.

MR TIPP: Now first of all, you will remember that after you were assigned to go to Shell House and you got there at about 10h30, a little after that you heard some shots in the vicinity from somewhere down Plein Street in a westerly direction, do you recall that?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And an ANC guard in fact came up to you where the Police were and asked you please to intervene and go and deal with it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's is correct, he asked me to accompany him.

MR TIPP: And it was clear to you and the other Policemen that the ANC in fact wanted the Police to take charge of the situation there and to ensure security?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, on that day they asked us to go with.

MR TIPP: Do you agree with what I'm putting to you, that they wanted the Police to ensure security of the lives and property there at Shell House?

MR VAN REENEN: He came to us and told us that there was a shooting taking place, he asked us to go with, and we did.

MR TIPP: I'd like you just please to ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Tip ...

MR TIPP: Yes?

MR LAX: Sergeant, you can put on some earphones and have the Afrikaans translation in your ears, clearly ...(intervention)

MR VAN REENEN: That won't be necessary thank you.

MR LAX: You okay with that?

MR VAN REENEN: Mm.

MR TIPP: Inspector just deal with the question crisply please that I'm putting to you, was it clear to you that that man from the ANC wanted the Police to deal with it and to look after the security of the situation there?

MR VAN REENEN: He came to me and asked for my assistance, and I accompanied him.

MR TIPP: Now a little after that you went off to investigate, Inspector you've heard - well let me come directly to the point, very shortly after that, you saw the - a large group of marchers of about 500-strong moving south down King George Street.  At that stage they were between Noord Street and De Villiers Street?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You and Sergeant van Greunen ran towards them to try to divert them?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And do you agree with me that at that stage events were happening very fast and in an atmosphere of very high tension?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: You knew that Shell House was the national headquarters of the ANC?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes I knew.

MR TIPP: You knew that the march that day was part of the IFP campaign against the election?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And you knew on that day of the long-standing history of conflict between the ANC and the IFP?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And when you saw this large group of armed marchers approaching, the possibility of a violent confrontation between them and the ANC personnel was clear to your mind?

MR VAN REENEN: As you've seen in my affidavit, moments before the group there was already a shooting incident which had taken place on the corners of King George and Plein Streets.  I thought that there would be a confrontation between the two approaching groups, and that is why I went to the two groups to deter this kind of conflict.

MR TIPP: And Inspector, you'll recall I think during the course of the inquest proceedings that you were shown certain photographic material, and from your own observations at the time, you will remember that the portion of King George Street between De Villiers Street and Plein Street was one that had a number of concrete barricades across it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: On the Plein Street side those concrete barricades ran right across King George Street?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR TIPP: And on the De Villiers Street side a couple had been moved aside to allow a car in and out?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: But for the rest it was also barricaded, correct?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: And also of course we know that King George Street as one moves south, it doesn't proceed, it runs directly into buildings?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, in Small Street.

MR TIPP: You as at 1994, you were a Policeman with 8 years experience and had some experience with crowd control and crowd movements?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: And I think you'll agree with me that of all the streets in the vicinity there, that block of King George Street between De Villiers Street and Plein Street, was the most unsuitable for the movement of a large number of marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes I would say so.

MR TIPP: Well De Villiers Street was wider and open.

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

MR TIPP: Wanderers Street was wider, Klein Street was wider, yes?

MR VAN REENEN: That's right.

MR TIPP: And open, yes?
NO AUDIBLE ANSWER

MR TIPP: If you nod, we won't ...(intervention)

MR VAN REENEN: Yes that's correct, I agree.

MR TIPP: Now Inspector, we've been busy with the application here for - over some days, I want with your assistance, objectively to try to convey to the Committee what the state of mind was of yourself at that time, and through that to try to convey in slightly more detail as to the atmosphere at that time, are you with me?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes I understand you.

MR TIPP: Good.

MR VAN REENEN: Now your state of mind as you ran up King George Street in the direction of the marchers, you realised, you saw, and your evidence was that the sight of that large on-coming group of armed people was a sight to induce fear, particularly for anybody who might consider it his duty to try to stop them.

MR VAN REENEN: I wouldn't put it in that light, the group came down King George Street, they were toyi-toying.  As I've already said, I had managed a number of marchers before, and I wouldn't say that I was afraid of them, that's why I approach them, in order to deter them, because in previous marches one would usually go to the Induna, they would usually listen to you and they would do what you asked them to do.