Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Ngo, do you know at all who was in command of the security branch operations in Attridgeville?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I was never taken there.

MR DU PLESSIS: Well, I put it to you that the evidence will be that is was Lieutenant Henning Brandt in Attridgeville.  And then, have you ever heard of Warrant Officer Johan van Wyk?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: And of Warrant Officer Hlongwane?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I never heard of him.

MR DU PLESSIS: You see Mr Ngo, during the period that you testify you were part of the security branch in Mamelodi, Warrant Officer Johan van Wyk, Warrant Officer Hlongwane and Captain Bokaba and later on, Danny Selahla worked directly under Captain Hechter in Mamelodi as the security branch operation in Mamelodi, I put that to you.  That will be the evidence of Colonel Loots.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't know those people you have mentioned, I only know two people, that is Dannyboy Selahla and Bokaba but I don't know others you have mentioned.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes you see Mr Ngo, what I find strange and I want you just to explain this to us, is although your evidence is that you were for more than two years, part of the security branch operations in Mamelodi, you only knew of Hendrik Bokaba and Danny Selahla.
	Mr Chairman, may I just - while we're dealing Danny Selahla, make something clear.  You would have heard in previous applications, evidence about a man called "Slang", I don't know if you recall that.  Danny Selahla is the person called "Slang", who was involved in some operations with Captain Hechter and Warrant Officer van Vuuren.
	Now Mr Ngo, to get back to the question, I just want you to explain this to us.   I find it strange that although you were part of the security branch operations in Mamelodi for more than two years, you do not know anybody else who were part of the security branch operations in Mamelodi except Constable - or he's now Captain but then Constable Bokaba or Danny Selahla.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, no basis has been laid for suggesting that in order for it to be true that you were posted at the security branch you would have had to know Captain Hech ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The cross-examination is eliciting that, we will then decide on the value to be given to it.

ADV MEMANI: But Sir, what I'm saying is, there hasn't been any prime suggestion that if he worked there, he should have known these people.  No ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel has just said that these three people worked under Hechter as the security branch in Mamelodi.  Didn't you say that about a minute ago Mr du Plessis?  The questions now is:  "I find it strange that you say you worked at security at Mamelodi and you didn't know these people who worked there".   What is your objection?

ADV MEMANI: My objection for instance Mr Chairman, is not - it has not been suggested where they worked and why ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It has, it's just been said that van Wyk, Hlongwane and later Bokaba, worked under Hechter as the security branch in Mamelodi.

ADV MEMANI: But for instance, the physical premises where they worked have not been described.  There hasn't been a basis like ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please, do you have to - he says he was security in Mamelodi, the question is: "Why didn't you know the other people who were security in Mamelodi"?  It is in my view a perfectly valid question.
	Carry on Mr du Plessis.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ngo, do you want me to repeat the question?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, may you repeat it Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you explain to us Mr Ngo, where you were part of the security branch operations in Mamelodi for more than two years, I find it strange that you only know of Bokaba and Selahla and you do not know any of the other people who were involved in the security branch operations in Mamelodi, such as Warrant Officer van Wyk, Warrant Officer Hlongwane and Captain Hechter.  Can you explain that to us?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Pardon?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, sorry - apart from Loots.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Other security branch members, meaning Whites - they used to come there but they would not come to me or talk to me.  They would come to Bezuidenhout and I didn't know the content of their negotiations, that is why I wouldn't mention or identify other people like that, so I only worked with those two.

MR DU PLESSIS: Where did you meet Danny Selahla for the first time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I saw him many times in barracks because he was accommodated there, even in the office at Compol - he was working there at that time.

MR DU PLESSIS: As I understand - do I understand you correctly, he lived in the same barracks as you did and Bokaba did?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, he used to sleep there but he was staying in the location or township.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.  You see, on page 53 of bundle B, there is an affidavit of Danny Selahla and I want to refer you to paragraph 2 thereof.  Page 53, bundle 2 - bundle B.  Paragraph 2 thereof Mr Ngo says
"I learnt to know the applicant in this matter, Ngo, at the Mamelodi police barracks by seeing him there as I accompanied Hendrik Bokaba who resided at the premises".
Now, that seems to accord with the evidence - with your evidence that you saw him with Bokaba, is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When I met Captain Loots, he gave me - he handed me over to Mr Bokaba then we met Dannyboy Selahla, then I saw him at the barracks, then at times we used to lift with him from the barracks to Compol with him but he was staying in the township called - in Mamelodi, even if I don't know the house number but he used to sleep at the barracks.  The person who slept there all the time was Hendrik Bokaba.

MR DU PLESSIS: Exactly when did you start living in the barracks? - or staying in the barracks sorry, that's more correct.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's where we were staying but I was not staying there all the time, I was staying there at the barracks and at times I was staying at the location, so I don't remember when I started to stay there but it was somewhere around 1986.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now Mr Ngo, I just want to know from you, are you saying - do I understand you correctly, are you saying that what Danny Selahla is saying here, that he met you when he accompanied Hendrik Bokaba when they went to the police barracks, that that is wrong?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I met him with - when I was with Bokaba, I knew him through Bokaba.  When I met Mr Bokaba with Captain Loots, I didn't see him there but I knew that he was working in Mamelodi, then I started working with him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you meet him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When I returned - where Danny Selahla showed me where he was staying at the barracks, that is where we met.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Now Mr Ngo, you see, I'm going to put to you what I will argue at the end about your involvement of the security branch and that is - and I want your comment on this please, that is that the only people of the security branch you knew according to their evidence, was Captain - Colonel Loots because you met him, you had an interview with him, Hendrik Bokaba because you lived with him in the barracks, Danny Selahla because you lived with him in the barracks.  Those were the only three people you knew who worked for the security branch because those were the only three people in security branch you ever met.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr du Plessis, did Danny live at the barracks?

MR DU PLESSIS: He confirmed that Mr Chairman, now in evidence after the question of his Lordship, Mr Justice Wilson.

CHAIRPERSON: He said that he stayed in the - slept in the barracks sometimes but he lived in the location.