Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: I don't understand.

<UNKNOWN>: ...teaching profession would be at the meetingof that nature, principals of schools or...
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MR CURRAN 502 J H CRONJE

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: ...from the Department of Education?

ANSWER: That is the case, yes from the various governmentdepartments.

<UNKNOWN>: Citizen Protection representatives, what doesthat mean?

ANSWER: That would have been the head of Civil Defencesince at certain times there were cases discussed or incidentsdiscussed say under an emergency situation, a bombing, then CivilDefence would have had certain responsibilities in that regard.

<UNKNOWN>: ...civilians?   (Start of questions often inaudible,no microphone).

ANSWER: Yes they were civilians.

<UNKNOWN>: And the City Councils or the Town Councils,were they also at meetings of that nature?

ANSWER: Not under normal circumstances, certainly sometimesthere were representatives, there were say mayors, members ofCity Councils but this was an irregular occurrence.

<UNKNOWN>: ...these civilians then knew of the nature andextent of the operations of the Security Forces, including thekillings and the tortures etc?

ANSWER: You refer to tortures, I don't think that ina meeting such as that I would have said that someone was tortured,I would rather say that yesterday two or three houses were bombedor possibly such and such a person had been or an activist, orhad died in a shooting incident.   I would not have referred totortures.

<UNKNOWN>: ...particularly honest or would you say "in'n skietvoorval", or would you say we took him out and weshot
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MR CURRAN 503 J H CRONJE
him in cold blood?

ANSWER: Of course I wouldn't have said that.

<UNKNOWN>: We don't know that and that's what we needto hear from you.   So the nature and extent of these operationsand the level of unlawfulness of the activities were not sharedwith those civilians is that what you are saying?

ANSWER: No certainly not.

<UNKNOWN>: In respect of all these incidents and all thesereports, there were records, there were files?

ANSWER: Please repeat?

<UNKNOWN>: All these situation reports which were thentaken up in a report to the State Security Council, all of thatwas documentation and at one stage there were records of all ofthose activities?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: ...that those records have also all been destroyed?

ANSWER: I can't comment on the destruction of the documentationbecause I had already at that time left the police force.

<UNKNOWN>: ...said that at no stage were any of your actionsever repudiated by the State Security Council?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: You regarded that as implied authority at leastfor what you were doing?

ANSWER: That is the case.

MEMBER OF COMMITTEE: Brigadier in a previous case weheard testimony that these Joint Management Systems involved allState departments, all government departments apart from Justice,is that the case?
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MR CURRAN 504 J H CRONJE

ANSWER: That is the case.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRAN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: In your evidence you said it was just the,as far as you knew, the Department of Law & Order and Defence?

ANSWER: I also referred to other State departments.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman as far as I remember he wascommenting on the State Security Council.
MR CURRAN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct, sorry.   With regard to instructions,you also said that you had a general and broad instruction tocarry out, sorry can I just rephrase that?   You gave a generaland broad instruction to your underlings that they were authorisedto carry out certain types of deeds depending on the circumstancesand at their discretion, and then it would not be necessary eachtime to come back for a specific instruction.   Is that correct?

ANSWER: That it was not always necessary, normally itwas not necessary under these circumstances of war to come backto me in every case.   I did, with regard to Hechter, also gavea general instruction.

<UNKNOWN>: Which included an instruction to kill withoutreverting to you if, in his discretion, it was warranted?

ANSWER: It did include this, but in most cases he wouldfirst have discussed it with me, due to the time factor and thenecessity of the case, no he was not obliged.

<UNKNOWN>: Was that general instruction not subject toabuse?

ANSWER: Please repeat?

<UNKNOWN>: That general instruction which you issued toyour underlings, surely that was something that was subject toabuse?
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MR CURRAN 505 J H CRONJE

ANSWER: I knew my staff very well and I trusted Hechterentirely that he would not have abused this instruction.

<UNKNOWN>: The instructions to you to kill, you say camefrom higher authority, in your evidence you were given an instructionfor example by Brigadier, now I think General Van der Merwe whowas head of the Security Branch and Brigadier Broodryk?

ANSWER: Brigadier Broodryk never gave me instructionsto kill.

<UNKNOWN>: Only General Van der Merwe?

ANSWER: General Van der Merwe, as my immediate superioror as the superior of the Security Branch, yes did give me thisinstruction.

<UNKNOWN>: We've heard that the instructions of that nature,certain instructions of bombings, came from a political level.  We heard in General Van der Merwe's evidence that the instructionto bomb Khotso House came from Mr Vlok?

ANSWER: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you aware of any other specific, not generalbut specific instruction, which came from that high politicallevel to commit acts of that nature?

ANSWER: Only in the case of these yellow hand-grenadesin which case General Van der Merwe informed me that this instructionhad been discussed with General Coetzee and that he gained authorityfor this from Minister Le Grange as well as P W Botha.

<UNKNOWN>: The fact that at least on certain occasions you were told that these instructions were coming from the highestpolitical level, did that make you assume that generally speakinginstructions of that nature came from
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MR CURRAN 506 J H CRONJE
that high political level?

ANSWER: It is the case.

JUDGE NGCOBE: Sorry can I just ask something?   The discretionenjoyed by your underlings, for example not to come back to youeverytime, did that also include competence to identify targetsthemselves, targets for elimination?

ANSWER: No, if they identified a target they would firsthave discussed this with me, I would then have given them furtherinstructions.

<UNKNOWN>: In that case how much room was left for theirdiscretion with regard to the elimination of the target?

ANSWER: The could use their discretion to some extentin this regard, but then they would have subsequently informedme that they had done so.

<UNKNOWN>: ...would they use their discretion?

ANSWER: If there were not sufficient time, if they hadto act immediately on information then they would have used theirdiscretion.

<UNKNOWN>: It is still not clear to me to what extent,in what way they would use their discretion.   Can I ask you whetherwhat you are saying is that where there were constraints of timethey were competent to identify a target as well and then decideto eliminate it and then only later come and tell you that we'veidentified a target and we have eliminated it?

ANSWER: Yes that is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: Did such situations arise where they themselves,I'm talking about your underlings, identified targets and theneliminated targets?

ANSWER: It did occur.
MR CURRAN (contd)
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<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR CURRAN 507 J H CRONJE

<UNKNOWN>: The instructions that you were getting wereclearly instructions to commit crimes as a policeman?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you feel obliged to carry out those instructions,and if so why?