Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

MR JACOBS: Good day, my name is Peter Anthony Jacobs, for the record.  There would be a request from my side that the panel be fairly patient with me.  Firstly I stutter, secondly this is a fairly traumatic experience, so I would ask the questions and if you are not clear, please refer again.  I will try and be as clear as I can.
	Firstly, I know it has been in detail explained the wet bag method.  Now, I would want it again to be explained by now Captain Benzien, who used to be Inspector Benzien or Warrant Officer Benzien, because I am going to basically come to a point to say that he is not telling all the truth about what had happened on that particular day and therefore I would want you to explain exactly what you did to me when I was arrested.
	Maybe I will give you an initial point.  Firstly I was arrested in Athlone, from there I was taken to Mannenberg police station and then from there, I was taken to Culemborg.
	Then there was questioning, then I was tortured.  I want him to explain the particular, the torture that he did to me and then I will be able to ask questions to him.

CHAIRPERSON: At Culemborg ...

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At Culemborg offices you were handcuffed.  You were asked where you were staying.  In your case you said under a bush.  It had rained the previous night, the normal interview with you carried on for quite a while and you were giving evasive answers.  It was also asked of you where Ashley Forbes was.	I am not very sure if it was Ashley Forbes, but I know you gave the name of Josef.  It was obvious that you were playing for time and then I resorted to using the wet bag method on you.
	I also think that during the sessions with the wet bag, we were not getting the desired results.  Time was going on and I think I applied electric shocks to you by means of a hand generator.

MR JACOBS: Now, if I can come to that.  You say that we were not getting the desired results.  Who are the people you are referring to in your "we"?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The members who were at the Unit that morning.  I almost think, I know Captain Liebenberg was there, although he says he was not in the office.	I think it is possible that Sergeant Kotze, I think helped me on that occasion.  I hope I am not giving the wrong name in this case.

MR JACOBS: In your evidence you would suggest that only the two of you were busy questioning me whilst I was having this bag over my head?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as I can remember, but the wet bag effort was not used all the time.  It was removed from period to period and you were then interviewed without the duress of the bag.

MR JACOBS: Okay.  You then also say, I am going to go through the detail of the questioning as well, a bit later, but you also say that at some point you added electric shocks to me.  Where did you add those shocks in your evidence?  In which parts of my body, to be more clear?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not exactly clear on this, but if you told me I could refresh my memory.

MR JACOBS: Yet, that is very strange to me, you see.  Yet you could now explain exactly what had happened when I was brought it, I was handcuffed, yet when it comes to asking specific parts, you are not, you see that is the question I want to get to if the Commission allows me.
That it is only when one provides him with information, then he says if that is so, I would concede, and that is where I am a bit concerned and therefore not very, and a bit disturbed that it is probably going to distress me more that you begin to only add when we provide you, then you say.
	So I am going to say again, there was a person you have never mentioned throughout the past few days, a Nortje was also.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, before you get there, let's sum up what you were trying to put to the witness.  I think Mr Jacobs is saying to you that you were able to remember the details, the questions that you asked me for example that you stayed under the bush and so on and so forth, but when it comes to exactly where on my body did you apply electric shocks, suddenly you don't remember.  That is what he is saying.  And he is asking you how do you explain that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, if I said to Mr Jacobs I put the electrodes in his nose, I may be wrong.  If I said I attached it to his genitals, I may be wrong.  If I put a probe into his rectum, I may be wrong.  That is why the specific methods I could have used any one of those three.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you during your service, use all three methods?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In the case of Mr Jacobs, yes, Sir.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Benzien, have I understood your evidence to be to the effect that you applied the wet bag method for quite a longer time with Mr Jacobs than with any of the victims that you have mentioned before this Committee?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me Ma'am?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Have I understood you to be saying that you applied the wet bag method much longer than on any of the other people that you have mentioned before the Committee?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Ma'am.  If I may, without preempting Mr Jacobs' testimony, why I say longer with Mr Jacobs, is I think, Mr Jacobs was arrested around ten o'clock the morning.

MR JACOBS: Five past nine, in the morning.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Five past nine in the morning, the intelligence that we had was that he was travelling in all probability with Mr Forbes.
	With every method we tried, Mr Jacobs gave evasive answers.  We could not get around to it.  It was obvious that he was playing for time.
	In a nutshell the only way we got him to speak was, by doing a rouse with the watch.  I don't know if you gentlemen, lady are aware of the watch story?  We had removed our watches and moved the time onto four o'clock the afternoon.
	And I was standing in the passage outside the office and I said, we are getting nowhere with this, it is four o'clock, I am going home.  And immediately Mr Jacobs heard the time four o'clock, which in actual fact, I think was around about twenty to two, Mr Jacobs then said, no problem I will take you to where I was living.	We drove directly to that place and en route he said, yes, the cut out time was two o'clock.  It was in actual fact quarter to two and we went to this house and we arrested Mr Forbes.  But I do concede that the torture of Mr Jacobs was robust and very long.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How long was it when you say it was long.  I know you have already given evidence that it would take you about 30 minutes to apply the wet bag method? With Mr Jacobs, how long did it take you to apply that method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The method was not applied continuously over those hours.  There was taken away on a conventional way of speaking, question, answer, question, answer, trying to get to him.	And we weren't getting anywhere with this questioning.  But that he was intensively molested, abused, I concede of all the people, he was the longest.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you used electric shocks on any of the people you have questioned?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: How many?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think just on Mr Jacobs.

JUDGE WILSON: And yet you have difficulty remembering what you did, or what order you did things in, although that was the first time you did it, is that what you are saying?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am saying that Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get the generator from?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I had acquired it by some or other telephone mechanic person.

JUDGE WILSON: But you had never used it, you just kept it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I kept it, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And you say you used all three shock methods on Mr Jacobs?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't think all three shock methods, but I could have used it in one of the three or a combination.

JUDGE WILSON: But although you cannot tell us which one, although that was the first time you had ever done it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.