Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Well before you went out to this place was there a discussion between yourselves and McCarter?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Mr McCarter?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes sir.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Concerning this?

ADV VAN SCHALWYK: Yes.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well he was briefing us as the group that is going to go there.  Then from there he singled out exact three that is going to be there, that you and this one, you are going to be involved.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you know Mr Bhila prior to this incident?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, nothing.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Were you given information about Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: There was a photo.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Were you given any other information about him apart from the photo?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: What?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That's he fit gentleman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I beg your pardon?

ERNEST RAMATALA: They said that he is very fit, that's all, physically fit.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And were you told that he was locally trained, I think you used the word crash course?

ERNEST RAMATALA: We went to Mr Bhila without any firearms.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Were you told - I'll repeat the question - that he was locally trained?

ERNEST RAMATALA: They said that he undergo crash course.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: That is all they told you about him?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly, how can we go a terrorist without firearms?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Granted but was any other information about Bhila given to you?

ERNEST RAMATALA: To identify Mr Bhila?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Any other information about Bhila, sir?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well the one, that house, there's a gentleman there and he is fit, it was like that.  You go to that house, the gentleman was there and he was fit.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Was anything mentioned about him appearing in a court matter?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I said that we were discussing on the way from Durban to Bhila's place, what I want to be clear about, these arrests, are we going - I just want - by then I was trying to secure the bonus, that are we going to get the bonus.  Now it was clear that no, he was not a terrorist.

MR MALAN: Mr van Schalkwyk, sorry, will you not demarcate the different time periods and places and when you want to know about discussions, it's perhaps too complex to leave it open, the questions?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did Mr McCarter at any stage mentioned anything about this man having appeared in court?

ERNEST RAMATALA: But I don't know how can I answer this because if three - four senior people, they are briefing us about certain guy, all four cannot talk at once, that we are going to Bhila - what, what, what, what, - that's why, but I cannot recall exactly what did Mr McCarter said, that he was the part of that.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Ramatala, least we're at cross purposes, do I understand correctly that you can't recall McCarter telling you that Bhila was involved in a court case?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well that I think so.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: I don't understand your answer?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well I agree with you.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You can't recall that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: You're telling me about the court case.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: However, that is something that you mentioned in your statement, that you recalled in 1996.
You say:
"We were informed about a person who was involved in a court case in Pietermaritzburg."

ERNEST RAMATALA: Probably this thing happened long time ago ...[inaudible] so one can still make a small mistake.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Well I'm going to suggest to you sir that you are also making a mistake about Mhieza?

MR MALAN: Just before you pursue Mhieza, the statement, Mr Ramatala, says that you were addressed by Mr McCarter.  If I understood you correct there were other people present when you were addressed by Mr McCarter.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR MALAN: And at that meeting you were informed about the acquittal and the court case by someone but you say you can't remember whether it was Mr McCarter, is that what you're saying?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, I think that one of the case it was Mhieza who was now talking about the case.

MR MALAN: But at that same meeting were you told about the case and the acquittal or was it another meeting, I mean these were the questions put to you.

ERNEST RAMATALA: He had not, definitely on that meeting again there somebody, can be Mr McCarter who talked about the guy who was being released from the prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told that he had been found not guilty?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Not guilty, that's it.

MR MALAN: But you're not sure whether Mr McCarter told you or someone else?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No I'm not sure.

MR MALAN: But are you sure he was present when you were informed?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr van Schalkwyk.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Malan.
	Well, can you remember who else was present at that particular meeting?

ERNEST RAMATALA: How can I?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Can you remember who else was present at that meeting, that Mr Malan has just asked you about?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Which meeting - the last briefing?

MR MALAN: No, Mr Ramatala, the question if you have your statement before you, well it's in Afrikaans.

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, it's in Afrikaans.

MR MALAN: But you said that you attended a meeting, all the members attended a meeting.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR MALAN: At C.R. Swart, where Mr McCarter addressed you.  You also said that you were informed at that meeting.  Now granted you're not saying who gave you the information but it reads as if it was Mr McCarter.  You were informed during that meeting that a person was found not guilty in the court case.  Now the question of Mr van Schalkwayk is, at that meeting where Mr McCarter addressed you, apart from your group, who else was present because you gave us the information about your group?

ERNEST RAMATALA: What had happened Mr McCarter ...[inaudible]

MR MALAN: Mr Ramatala do you want me to repeat that question.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes I want to answer that question now.  You see at that meeting ...[inaudible]

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: If your light goes off you're not being recorded.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Okay, can I leave it like this?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Just press the button now and that will be alright.

MR MALAN: Yes please just go ahead and answer?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Mr McCarter addressed the whole group but now when choosing the one that going there, again we were briefed, now when I say that now, the issue of this guy who was being discharged it was being discussed there.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Apart from Mr McCarter was there any other member of the police?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Who was there?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Mhieza was there, Pekkie was there, Letsatse was there and these was two other ones.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Incidently, when you made your statement to Mr Holmes, did he specifically ask you about Mhieza, did he ask you was there a person by the name of Mhieza present?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well that might be but I know Mhieza very well.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did Holmes ask you about Mhieza, how well you knew him?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: It was not suggested by him that Mhieza was present on the day in question and you were asked to comment on it?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Right now then you went back for the second time, let's deal with that particular set of events.
Mhieza was not present when you went back, in fact to get Bhila, is that correct?  To meet Bhila?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The first one?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: No, I'm talking about the second set of events.

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, the second one when we went to Mr Bhila, we were only three guys in the Honda.  Mhieza was with others in the Combis.  Now Mhieza came when now they stopped us, he was coming from the Combi now.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Let's deal with when you were stopped as you say, was it a case of your vehicle being taken off or pushed off the road, intercepted as it were?