Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

YASMINE SOOKA: I also understood you to say that the raid was really the concern of the Murder and Robbery Unit, is that correct?

ANTON PRETORIUS: It was their operation, it was their investigation. We were only there to assist them on security matters and explosives.

YASMINE SOOKA: Is it usual for such high ranking Intelligence officers like yourself to go on these kinds of raids which really involved criminal investigations?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, like I've already told you unfortunately I became an explosives expert in 1986.  You will probably know that a policeman didn't earn that much, an explosives expert got extra money and in order to qualify for that I had to do extra services. Perhaps it was not a little bit exceptional but on the other hand it was an opportunity to get to Mrs Mandela's house.

YASMINE SOOKA: Would it be usual for Colonel Potgieter to accompany Murder and Robbery Unit on these kind of raids?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No, I would say yes but, this was an exceptional case. Like I've said it was exceptional and as far as I recall the request of Murder and Robbery to Security, was made to Security to accompany them and I doubt that they would refuse because we have in the past requested them in the same way.

YASMINE SOOKA: I think you've confirmed for us the evidence that has been placed before the Commission at other hearings about the way people in Trewits identified targets at different levels, and that those targets if their names disappeared off that list it would either mean they were moved from one district to another or that they were eliminated.
 You've also said that you cannot remember whether Mrs Mandela's name was on such a list, is that correct?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: You know what I find very puzzling is that you remember what - I think the words you used is "liefde sprakies", you remember that kind of Intelligence information that passes before you but you can't remember whether such an important person like Mrs Mandela, who in the hierarchy of the ANC at that level, you can't remember whether her name is on such a list. It's very difficult for me to understand.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission as far as my knowledge goes, Trewits were initially there directed at the MK people in overseas and the structures overseas. I was not personally on one meeting where I - and there's no one in Trewits who can come and say that he was at one meeting, single meeting where internal lists were updates as far as I remember.

YASMINE SOOKA: To take it further on your own version, you've told us that that you were actually involved in the monitoring in a sense those MK members who passed from inside this country to outside, so would it be logical to assume that someone like Themba Mabotha should actually be on your list?

ANTON PRETORIUS: If he was still involved in the structures in the outside, it could have been that he was a part and parcel of that structure on that list, it could have been possible.

YASMINE SOOKA: And you of course would have been responsible for looking at that?

ANTON PRETORIUS: If I may explain what happened there. Each form of machinery consisted of about fifty MK members. My task was at each meeting they asked us certain things, the Trewits in Pretoria for instance would ask: "We haven't got the real name of Mr Jimmy, what is his real name, does anybody know?" and it was my duty to try and find who was Mr Jimmy.
 If I had found that it was Klaas de Jong then at the next Trewits meeting I would make an input and say it was Klaas de Jong and here's a photo of him, that was our task at Trewits.

YASMINE SOOKA: But am I right in assuming that you were responsible in Soweto certainly? Now from the evidence that we've heard Mr Mabotha was an MK member who was turned and became an askari, he was stationed at Mrs Mandela's house at some stage. So surely in the course of your monitoring, he's someone who should have been on your list?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission I won't say that it was impossible but if I listen to what's been taking place here, it is highly unlikely that he would have been on that list. Firstly because he was an askari, so called or an informer at Vlakplaas,  don't know for how long. Secondly then he disappeared for a while and then he was arrested again.
 So it's very unlikely to me if I think of Trewits meetings, that his name would appear on that list because he would not have belonged to, fitted into a structure overseas. He might have been on a list of people who infiltrated into the RSA but I don't think he was on a list of outside of RSA.

YASMINE SOOKA: Tell me, the Jimmy that you refer to is that the same Jimmy Mabona that was referred to in the earlier evidence?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No, I was just thinking of Jimmy Mbane who helped Mr Potgieter. I think Mr de Kock referred to Jimmy Mbane.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Jimmy Mbane?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Jimmy Mbane, yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: You knew him?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I knew him, he worked with me.  Mr de Kock transferred him to me after he caused some problems there, so I had to face his problems.

YASMINE SOOKA: He was an Askari?

ANTON PRETORIUS: He was an askari, a fully fledged member of the South African Police Force.

YASMINE SOOKA: I see. What happened to him eventually?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I think he's in jail at the present moment for some or other criminal - because he was a real criminal.

YASMINE SOOKA: Interesting. Mr Pigou, you have a question?

MR PIGOU: Just one question.

YASMINE SOOKA: One question?

MR PIGOU: Ja. I'd like you to listen to me very carefully Mr Pretorius so we don't have any comprehension problems because that seems to have plagued the hearing during our testimony. It seems as though there is a fundamental contradiction in your testimony concerning the Intelligence work around Mrs Mandela.
 Mr Jan Potgieter has provided us with a list or not with a list, I beg your pardon, with a number of statements which he secured from the Attorney General's office in connection with the activities of MK cadres and their involvement with Mrs Mandela. Now we know that in 1989, in April I believe it was a thick dossier of over a hundred statements relating to thirty matters was handed over in connection with Mrs Mandela and her activities with Umkhonto we Sizwe. Now can you explain to us how this kind of information can be gathered by the Investigation Unit which makes very clear connections that she just wasn't an appendage to MK activities working on the periphery but that she was a central character to MK activities in Soweto and  yet you are telling us, if I'm to understand your testimony correctly, that you didn't have a specific focus on her as a high priority character. I'm sorry I simply do not believe you. Could you perhaps explain that fundamental contradiction to us?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I suppose the gentleman doesn't understand me properly, even Colonel Potgieter can be asked. On a few occasions he, with that specific docket of thirty plus incidents, helped me and he asked me whether I couldn't perhaps identify this person in order to get additional evidence.
 All I said was that I wasn't specifically tasked to investigate Mrs Winnie Mandela but I said so in my affidavit.  In Intelligence work and the gathering of information, I gathered information on Mrs Mandela, I followed them up and if it was positive I would have told the investigating officers but didn't have enough evidence and sufficient evidence and we've already been told that by Mr Potgieter.  The evidence that was available they got from arrested MK members and the docket was then given to the Attorney General for decision. So in other words I did help, I don't know whether I helped but I nevertheless tried and I really tried to help Colonel Potgieter to get his docket ordered.