Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

SISI KHAMPEPE: You see for us to be able to grant you amnesty we have got to know from you whether you did or did not assault Mr Chikororo.  We can't depend on what Mr Chikororo is going to say because Mr Chikororo could also be exaggerating the situation.  Now if you, as an applicant, is unable to say what offence you are seeking amnesty before this Committee, how are we going to be of any better assistance to you?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I do admit that I hit Mr Chikororo.  It is just that in those days there were so may people I don't think he might have escaped this kind of assault.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now if you say you do admit that you hit Mr Chikororo how did you hit him?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well if I remember I used my bare hand.  I might have done that possibly quite often.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is that all that you can recollect, that you used your bare hands?  Didn't you apply some electric shocks on any part of his body?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember that with regard to Mr Chikororo, having used the electric shocks.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it customary for any detainee under your hands to be assaulted by you?  Is it something that you would ordinarily do?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well it was not customary that I had to do that, I am just saying what I did personally on these people.  Not that I am saying other people didn't assault them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But to your recollection did the people mentioned or referred in paragraph 15, were they ever assaulted by you now that you have had an opportunity of better reflecting?

INTERPRETER: Sorry could you repeat the question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: To your recollection did you assault any of the persons mentioned in paragraph 15?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes, yes I do.

SISI KHAMPEPE: All of them?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Except Mr Mahamba.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And why didn't you assault Mr Mahamba?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well he wasn't very difficult. You know he just - on his arrival he said what he had to say and we realised that there was no need.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you are saying that Mr Mahamba immediately volunteered the information that you wanted or that you suspected him of?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Exactly what we were expecting, it's true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, and that's the only reason why he was never assaulted.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well we were not able to assault anyone who was ready to cooperate.  With regard to Mr Mahamba you know he wasn't so hard.  Well he just told us exactly what happened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: We've previously had evidence from one of the applicants who has appeared before us and he has stated that the reason why Mr Mahamba wasn't assaulted was because he was crippled.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well that could have been how they thought about it but this is how we regarded the case to be, you know he was not difficult. He was ready to reveal everything.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You heard Mr Ramaligela alluding to that fact yesterday when he gave his viva voce evidence.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes I heard that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you wouldn't agree with that aspect of his evidence with regard to why Mr Mahamba wasn't assaulted?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I can't dispute that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Alright.  And then the last person that is stated here in your statement is Mr Mahumela.  You said there that he was never assaulted by you.  What is the position?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well with regard to Mr Mahumela, well I didn't touch him, I didn't assault him.

MR MEYER: So do you stick to what you said here in your statement?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes with regard to Mr Mahumela.  I think I can remember that he was working as a prosecutor and if one could just assaulted ...(indistinct) - I mean I could remember that if I had done that, easily.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you not assault Mr Mahumela, he was a suspect in a matter that you had been instructed to investigate and to leave no stone unturned and to go to whatever lengths to unearth the information that was required to enable you to prefer charges against all these people?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well it could have been because we didn't really have time to ask him or interrogate him so much.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You arrested him yet you didn't have time to interrogate him.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: He was arrested - yes I wasn't personally involved in arresting him. I only got involved with him in the offices, interrogating in the offices.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you interrogate him at all, you personally?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I didn't personally interrogate him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you have anything to do with Mr Mahumela's arrest?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You had no contact with Mr Mahumela whilst he was in detention?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I can't remember, well I don't remember interrogating him.  He might have been there but I can't really recollect exactly as far as interrogation is concerned.  I can't remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is it within your personal knowledge to indicate how long he was in detention?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I can't remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Meyer you may proceed.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just come in here, I just want some clarity.  Mr Managa, when you filled in the form for the amnesty, the first, the original form, did you know that you had to make a full disclosure?  Did you appreciate it?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well when we did the first initial thing we didn't really know exactly where it was leading to.  Well we didn't know it was going to end up in court or a forum like this.

ADV BOSMAN: When you filled out or signed the second supplementary statement did you know then that you had to make a full disclosure, in other words tell everything?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well that was after we had received legal back-up.

ADV BOSMAN: My difficulty is that there you also did not mention the most important matters, why was that?  That I don't understand.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Maybe there was a failure of recollection.

ADV BOSMAN: What triggered your memory?  This is what I am trying to understand.  What made you to remember the electric shocks and the hood and the water and the helicopter method?

CHAIRPERSON: We are not getting the interpretation through.  Just please repeat your answer Mr Managa.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: These are things that really happened, that some of them I could not remember, but there are some things which I can remember. You know I cannot put them chronologically because it happened a long time ago.

ADV BOSMAN: Let me put it to you this way.  Did you have sight of the evidence that was led before the Human Rights Violations Committee?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Could you repeat.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you have sight of the document, the transcription of the evidence that was led by the victims before the Human Rights Committee?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No, I didn't have time.  I could not read it.  I only heard about it on the radio that this is how it happened.

ADV BOSMAN: Has anybody at any stage told you the content of the Human Rights Violations Committee evidence?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: After we had heard our legal representatives they only asked us, they told us what happened as far as the victims are concerned, they only told us verbally. That is how we were able to write our statements.

ADV BOSMAN: So when did you get your first information, more-or-less at what time did you for the first time hear what the victims had told the Human Rights Violations Committee?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It was after, it was I think after the radio evidence, it was after we had met our legal representatives.

ADV BOSMAN: But can you more-or-less put a date to it?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't remember.  Maybe it was a year ago, I can't remember exactly.  Maybe I will have to check again.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.