Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   Not at all, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Was that a separate function altogether?

WITNESS:   That was the function of the branch, the Security Branch in which area the arrest would have been made.

MR JANSEN: Yes.  Do you know whether your report to Colonel Skoon at that stage was reported higher up?

WITNESS:   It was reported higher up, because shortly after the morning "sanhederin" meeting at 8 o'clock, where the section chiefs met with General Johan Coetzee and Brigadier Jan du Preez, his second in charge, General van der Hoven personally congratulated me on the successful mission, without him knowing at that stage that the askaris were still in Manzini, and I was expecting problems.

MR JANSEN: General van der Hoven?

WILSON J: Who congratulated you?

WITNESS:   General Johan Coetzee in person, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Not General van der Hoven?

WITNESS:   No, no, General Johan Coetzee in ... (intervention)

WILSON J: Only Johan Coetzee?

WITNESS:   Only Johan Coetzee.

WILSON J: I also thought you said van der Hoven.

WITNESS:   Oh, sorry.  That's a slip of the tongue.

MR JANSEN: When did the news break of Mr Pillay's abduction and the arrest of the askaris?

WITNESS:   Later

MR JANSEN: /that morning

MR JANSEN: that morning before lunch time it happened, the arrest in Swaziland of the askaris, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of them?

WITNESS:   One could check with the Manzini court records, but I think three or four were arrested eventually, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: What happened to Mr Pillay then at Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   He was just held there awaiting the arrival of Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie, and it was obvious that he was seriously beaten up.  His eyes were swollen, bruised severely, blue, and you could see he had a very rough treatment.

MR DE JAGER: Was that before Taylor and Fourie arrived?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman, before they arrived.

MR DE JAGER: So before the interrogation started.

WITNESS:   That's before the interrogation started.

WILSON J: That would have been at Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   When he arrived there he was already beaten up, ja, so it must have been during the abduction period that apparently they severely assaulted him, the askaris.

MR JANSEN: Yes.  If I could just refer to a statement made in your application in paragraph (d) in the Joe Pillay  matter, and it says,

MR JANSEN: "And during the course of his detention in Pretoria he was seriously assaulted."

MR JANSEN: What is your comment on that statement?

WITNESS:   No, he was seriously assaulted before he reached Vlakplaas, and whilst being interrogated by Jerry Fourie and Andy Taylor - I was present personally the whole time - and they clouted him a few times, and he was administered so-called truth serum by an army doctor.

MR JANSEN: Were the assaults - or the observations that you

MR JANSEN: /made of

MR JANSEN: made of Mr Pillay was the inference that - or was it your inference that he had been more seriously assaulted prior to arriving in Pretoria, or thereafter?

WITNESS:   No, absolutely before - prior arriving to Pretoria.

MR JANSEN: Yes.  What happened then to Mr Pillay?  You said he was kept at Vlakplaas for a while until Mr Taylor and them arrived.

WITNESS:   I was then ordered by Brigadier Skoon to proceed with Major Kallie Steyn of Military Intelligence, and I said in my manuscript a Sergeant du Plessis, but after seeing the copy of my note book that I carried - a police pocket book, but it was used for names and addresses only - the Military Intelligence sergeant was Tobie van Rensburg, who then took myself ... (inaudible - equipment faulty, no English translation) ... would have a break.  Jerry Fourie and Andy Taylor, they took us to the observatory on the ridge just next to Klapperkop Fort, where the army had converted the observatory into a secret  meeting place, and where we were then taken into an underground bunker, a lecture hall, what looked like a lecture hall on  the premises.

MR JANSEN: What happened once he was at the observatory?

WITNESS:  There Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie interrogated him.  They clouted him a few times.  He kept on denying that he was still actively involved with the ANC in any way.  They eventually decided then, Captain Andy Taylor, Jerry Fourie and the Military Intelligence, Major Kallie Steyn, bring in an army doctor, whose name is not known to me, who was in brown uniform, with a drip with a so-called truth serum.  They've made him lie down on a stretcher in a small little room behind the lecture hall in the bunker, and put the drip into his arm, and the doctor controlled

MR JANSEN: /it.  It

MR JANSEN: it.  It had the effect that he lost control over his

MR JANSEN: thinking, kind of.  It made him fall into a kind of relaxed position where he couldn't resist kind of, and if he would look that he's now getting control over what he's saying again explicitly the doctor would open the drip a little more, and he will then as if falling back into a very relaxed, sleepy situation.

MR JANSEN: And what kind of information was in fact obtained from Mr Pillay?

WITNESS:   It was nothing at all.  It was absolutely clear to me as a bystander that this man was sure not actively involved in any ANC operations any more.

MR JANSEN: For how long was Mr Pillay kept at the observatory?

WITNESS:   If my memory serves me right that day from the afternoon until late that night, and he might have slept there the night, because we slept in a house.  They've got four houses at the observatory, I think A to D, different category houses.  We slept in house B, and the next morning Mr Pillay was transferred to Sergeant Koos Schutte's house, where in the servant's quarters he then stayed with David Tshikalanga guarding him, awaiting further instructions, because then in the meantime there was the international outcry as a result of the arrest of the askaris in Swaziland, and the knowledge that Joe Pillay has been abducted and were in South Africa.

MR JANSEN: Why was he taken to Sergeant Schutte's house?

WITNESS:  He was illegally detained.  I was awaiting further orders.  There was then indications that he would have to be returned to Swaziland at some stage, because that Sunday afternoon General Johan Coetzee and a senior officer from Foreign Affairs met with the Swazi authorities at Nersten Border Post, and they then agreed to arrange R800,00 bail

MR JANSEN: /for the

MR JANSEN: for the askaris that were arrested in Swaziland during their first appearance, and that we would then smuggle them back in the boot to South Africa, and then they would take Joe Pillay back to Swaziland after his bruises has healed a little bit.  So Sergeant Koos Schutte and David Tshikalanga took Mr Pillay to Lothair Police Station, where he was handed over to Lieutenant Chris Dieklifs.

CHAIRPERSON: What police station?

WITNESS:   Lothair.  Lothair.  Just outside Ermelo there's a police station, Lothair Police Station, on the way to Swaziland.  Where he was then kept by Lieutenant Chris Dieklifs for a week, I believe, and then taken back in the boot of the car to Swaziland, handed a few rand, R15,00 I think, if I remember correctly, and just - and Dieklifs came back.  And that was how that matter was eventually settle.

MR JANSEN: How were you informed of - or how did Pillay's movement from Koos Schutte's house to Lothair, and further to Swaziland - how did that come to your knowledge?

WITNESS:   By Brigadier Willem Skoon.  Sergeant Koos Schutte himself, and then by Brigadier Willem Skoon on the morning meetings.

MR JANSEN: And at what stages were Mr Pillay guarded by Mr Tshikalanga?

WITNESS:   Just when we had tea, or a lunch break, or we discussed something, we would bring Mr Tshikalanga in to just sit with Mr Pillay.