Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior, nowhere in her evidence does she say that these were people helping the community or were part of the church.  She simply tried to explain that they were not whites.

ADV PRIOR: ...[inaudible]

MR LAX: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Can I ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, I'm just trying to make sure we don't end up down a false path and a red herring unnecessarily.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May I simply then just put that the witness tried to explain that the deceased were not white people, they were not Boers, ignore the balance,thank you.  I apologise for that.

ADV PRIOR: I did not hear of any such thing.

CHAIRPERSON: What she in fact says she said was that she asked you, your people to have a good look at those people that you had made to stand against the wall and she said she told you that they were Persians from Iran and they were not the local people, at page 98.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not hear such a thing.  What I only heard is that they were praying that they were separated to others and praying at that time.  I did not hear what they were saying because the language they were speaking was strange to me.

CHAIRPERSON: The language who was speaking?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The way I heard them they were speaking a church language, that church of theirs as I did not know that church.  They had their hands up high clearly praying though we could not understand what they were saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the: "they" that you are talking about?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We are talking about these people, the black people of the church.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: Were the deceased also praying?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I would not lie to you.

ADV PRIOR: Well tell me, were they praying?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not know because I did not see them praying, I only saw them raising their hands up high.

ADV PRIOR: I want to show you two photographs.
	Mr Chairman, those were the only copies I got at lunchtime.  I've made photocopies, they don't really do justice.  The originals are available and they're being shown to the applicant. 
	The gentleman in the suit is Mr Rasdvi, he was the gentleman that worked at the university in the computer department and the other gentleman is Mr Anvari.  I do not have a photograph of the doctor, his family have left or gone back to Iran.  I want you to have a good look at those photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: C1.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Rasdvi, C1 and Mr Anvari, C2.
	Would you agree that just by looking at those photographs, that the deceased were clearly not white people or if I could put it this way, Caucasian but that they were obviously - I don't know how to explain this.

MR LAX: Some other race Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: Some other race.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Would you agree with that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not know that.

ADV PRIOR: Well look at the photograph please.  I'm asking you to study the photographs.

MR LAX: Are those the two men that your group shot?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not know, it could be that it is indeed them.

MR LAX: Well, do those people in those photographs look like white people to you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: You told the Committee that you did not shoot, do you want to think about that reply?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The answer that I did not shoot?

ADV PRIOR: Yes.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot think anything further about that because I was standing at the door keeping guard over those people inside.

ADV PRIOR: You see I have information that Mr Mbambo in an interview with Captain Els which is on a tape recording, it's been recorded, it was at his request, had indicated that you were one of the persons that shot at Bahai, among other things that he told him which are on the tape.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, if I may interject here.  Is that tape going to be made available so that we can listen to it?

ADV PRIOR: Most certainly and Advocate Corlett was informed this morning of the existence of such tape.  We're having difficulty with the machine, it was a machine used by the security branch and the tape is being, I'm not saying transcribed but we are trying to find another machine on which we can hear what was said but I'm putting on the basis of what Captain Els has informed me, what occurred at the interview with Mr Mbambo and that he indicated to me was clearly audible on the recording.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, whilst I haven't heard it and whilst I do admit that I was told about it this morning certainly, how can the witness be asked to comment on something he's neither heard or knows anything about at this stage?  Surely he could keep that question over until such stage as we've given such evidence.

ADV PRIOR: I agree, possibly that's the right approach Mr Chairman.  I will then go on.  And I'll endeavour to have the tape made available as soon as possible.
	After the killing of the three ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before we go on.  I don't know if you're expecting to get a machine here this afternoon but if you could get it tomorrow morning then we could all perhaps listen to it together rather than to have to pass it from one person to another.
	I don't mean it be a public performance but in our office or somewhere if we could tomorrow morning.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I understand that a machine is now available and it here.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, when we adjourn.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now were you ...[intervention]

MS COLLETT: Sorry, before you continue.  Mr Chairman, might I just ask, if this a confession or a statement or something of that nature made by Mbambo, surely the correct thing to do is not to put it to this witness, it would be the correct thing to put it to Mbambo because he would have been the author of that?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it will clearly be put to Mbambo but this witness must be given a chance of dealing with it rather than not say a word to him and then we get the evidence later of these very damaging remarks, accusations against him.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman whilst I hear you, I think that the furtherest that my learned friend could go is to say to him: "Such an allegation has been made against you", even without us hearing the tape and for him to say jay or nay.
	It's not important that we hear the tape with regard to this witness but certainly with regard to Mbambo because he would have been the author thereof.  
	So I have no problem with him asking this witness whether he sticks by his version that he never shot and that would be sufficient as far as I am concerned.

ADV PRIOR: He did reply Mr Chairman, so you, with respect, we move on.  He said: "No", he didn't shoot.
	The vehicle that you eventually went away with was the Jetta and you took it back to Butterworth and you replied in your evidence that it was kept by APLA as was the custom or as was the practice, is that so?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We left the car at the coloured township with commander Jimmy Jones, with the guns he had given to us.

ADV PRIOR: And did he use the vehicle for his own purposes or don't you know?  Or did he sell the vehicle?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That was the last day I last saw that car.  I do not know what happened to that car.

ADV PRIOR: Well, did you ever ask Mr Jones afterwards on subsequent occasions what happened to that vehicle?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I did not ask him.

ADV PRIOR: I want to move on to the next incident.

MR LAX: Before you do Mr Prior, there's just one thing that hasn't been cleared up from this bout of evidence. If I may just ask a question.
	Your instructions were to take applicant number 2, Mr Mbambo, with you after this operation, is that correct.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Now at that stage he didn't have a code name, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I only knew him then as Africa Tjobane.

MR LAX: Now what did you do, do you know why it was necessary to take him with you?