Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

MR TSHABANGU: It is one of the reasons.  There are many reasons.  In my evidence I have stated that at the time I was a COSAS member, thereafter I became an instrument of oppression under the government which oppressed the people, that matter put me in a situation where I became an enemy against the community who thought I might have sold them out.
	As I have explained about the teacher whom I shot, Zwane gentleman who died, might be some of the reasons which created the animosity between me and the community and also my friendship with the IFP.  I will say these are some of the reasons.

MR BERGER: Isn't the reason that you fled Boipatong, the death of Lita Zwane?

MR TSHABANGU: It is one of the reasons, but it is not the only reason.

MR BERGER: Isn't it also correct that you fought with Lita Zwane over a girlfriend?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: Do you know a woman by the name of Maga Pagati?  Pagati is her mother's name?

MR TSHABANGU: I know Maga, but I don't know Maga Pagati.  The Maki that I know, Maki was never in love with Lita.  Lita provoked me, he stabbed me while in the company of other men.  He was very active in the activities of the ANC.

MR BERGER: Was Maga your girlfriend?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And is it not correct that she was also having a relationship with Lita Zwane?

MR TSHABANGU: No.

MR BERGER: And isn't it correct that you tied Lita Zwane to a tree and removed his genitals?

MR TSHABANGU: That is very wrong.  I think you have been given wrong information.  I would like you to go and find out the dockets concerning the death of Lita Zwane, that will prove that with respect, what you are saying is not true, or it is a lie.  That I tied him or cut his genitals, also with reference to the girlfriend relationship.

MR BERGER: Is it not correct that you dragged Lita Zwane with a car between Boipatong and Sharpville?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct.  The report of the District Surgeon over the death of Lita Zwane, it was said the cause of death was brain haemorrhage because of the beatings he suffered from us.
	At no stage was he dragged by a car.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that as a result of the death of Lita Zwane and the manner in which he had been killed, that you became persona non grata in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: That is not correct.  I would like to tell you or before I tell you what I want to tell you, I understand that when a person die, he cannot be taken exactly or treated the same as the death of a dog.  The death of Lita was not a usual death.  I would say to correct, his death was not different to the other deaths of people in the township.
	My intention was not to kill him, however, he died out of this.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you were convicted of kidnapping?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR BERGER: How did you kidnap Lita Zwane, what did you do?

MR TSHABANGU: I met him in town.  I said I am going to open a case against him and that he should accompany  me to the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, what is the relevance of this to the inquiry that is before us?

MR BERGER: The relevance Chairperson, is that this was a personal attack, not a political attack.  It was personal, not political, the death of Lita Zwane.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, can I just mention that the applicant has been charged for his death, he has been convicted.  That issue has been dealt with in a court of law already.   The applicant is not applying for amnesty for the death of that specific person, Lita Zwane, so I submit that it is irrelevant at this stage.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, in the applicant's papers and particularly in his affidavit starting at page 175, he deals with the death of Lita Zwane.
	He says at page 177 "die voorval wat gelei het tot my skorsing uit die Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie het plaasgevind voordat ek na KwaMadala getrek het.  Ek het die persoon wat my by die sjibeen met die mes gesteek het, ontvoer en aangerand.  Hy is later dood.  Ek was strafregtelik daarvoor aangekla en gestraf tot agt jaar gevangenisstraf.  Ek het die vonnis vanaf November 1992 uitgedien.  Volgens my was die "something" rede vir hierdie rede vir hierdie optrede ook polities aangesien die aanval op my polities geinspireer was."
	I would have thought that that ...

CHAIRPERSON: He is not applying for amnesty in respect of the death of that individual, is that right Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: That is so.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, he confirmed his affidavit under oath.  If I am not supposed to cross-examine him on certain aspects of his affidavit, then I will leave it out, but he draws the link between that political killing, he says that was also a political, meaning what he did in Boipatong was political.
	I am attempting to show that the first one was not political.  I can't take it any further than that.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I would submit that detail as to how Lita Zwane was killed, has got nothing to do with the issue.  If the question is what the reason for his death was, that would be a question that would be allowed.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I need a direction on what I should do.

CHAIRPERSON: The submission is that the question of how he died, is irrelevant to the question of why he was killed.  That is what the submission is.  What do you say to that?

MR BERGER: I submit that the savagery of the attack, given the personal circumstances between  him and Lita Zwane, tends to show that this was a personal feud which was taken to extremes.
	If the witness is not telling the truth about it, I would like to probe, but Chairperson, I can't take it any further than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Put the question.  Answer the question Mr Tshabangu.

MR TSHABANGU: Please repeat your question.

MR BERGER: You were telling us Mr Tshabangu, you were telling us how you abducted this man, you said you approached him, you told him you wanted to take him to the police station.  That is when we were interrupted, so carry on from there.

MR TSHABANGU: I took him and I did that because the Investigating Officer on that case, was not willing or afraid to arrest him.
	What I said, my first word when I came to him, I asked him why did you stab me.  He didn't answer or said anything which made sense.  He refused to go with me.  I took him to the police station.  He said I can do what I can do. Rembering that he did stab me, and he just started wit me, I didn't do anything, things got out of hand.  I didn't take him to the police station then.
	I was convinced that I wanted to avenge by assaulting him.  My main aim was to inflict pain on him but the assault resulted in his death.  That is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Weren't you a member of the Police Force then?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Investigating Officer?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't remember his name, but I know him facially.  He is stationed at Vanderbijl police station.

MR BERGER: Why do you say that when Lita Zwane stabbed you, that it was political?

MR TSHABANGU: It is because they approached me in the comrade fashion.   As a person who knows the comrades, I stayed with them in the township, during those days they came and stood outside, started chanting and they called me to come out and that is the comrade fashion.
	They said the aim was to remove all the Police from the community or the township and they were asking why was I still in the community while others have run away.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that at your hearing in connection with the death of Lita Zwane, you came across Mr Miga who is the father of Amos Miga who was killed by George Khumalo, you met Mr Miga at your hearing, is that correct?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know which Miga you are referring to whose son was killed by George Khumalo.  If he is present here, I would like to request that he will stand up.  If you are referring to Zozo, I will say yes.  If you are referring to a man known as Zozo, I would agree with you.