Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR MOHAPE: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: Mr Mohape, yesterday we had just reached the point where I was asking you some questions about you leaving Bayswater Police Station, do you remember that?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.
(Technical problem with microphones)

MR VISSER: Mr Mohape, yesterday we were talking about the time when you left Bayswater Police Station.  You told us yesterday, if I remember correctly, that that was the time you were arrested and you first thought that it was in terms of Section 27?

MR MOHAPE: 29.

MR VISSER: Oh, sorry 29 and then it appeared to be a Section 50 arrest if I understood you correctly?

MR MOHAPE: Correct.

MR VISSER: I want to ask you first of all, just going back a step.  Did that have anything to do with the attack on Mr Nelson Ngo?  Was that unrelated, that arrest, was it unrelated to that particular attack?  If you can't remember well then just say so.

MR MOHAPE: No, no, I remember it. Correct.  It is very clear at that time we had already uncovered Ngo and the police, the security branch, beyond that, they continued to detain me.  I was detained and detained to - what is this prison?  Grootvlei prison.  It was a continuous harassment from the security branch.

MR VISSER: The question is simply this.  Did it have anything to do with the attack on Mr Ngo?

MR MOHAPE: I think that you should ask the security branch.

MR VISSER: Alright, okay, that's good enough.  Now you went out of the police station that evening, late at night, eleven o'clock thereabouts?

MR MOHAPE: Correct.

MR VISSER: And you told us that area was sufficiently lit by electric lights for you to realise that the two people that arrived there were people who were unknown to you, or am I wrong?

MR MOHAPE: I think you're wrong.  I told you that there are lights, yes, in the road, but in the minute where people came to me and a person introduced himself as a security branch, I took to their introduction of theirs that they are coming to take me home and I agreed and got into the bakkie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, with your permission can I just ask this witness this question?  Mr Mohape, these two people who came to fetch you were in the bakkie.  Had they been people that were well known to you, would you have - no, no listen to the question, had they been people that were well known to you would you have identified them?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: I am really indebted to you Mr Chairman, you have put it more crisply than I was building up to do.  And we know from your evidence yesterday that had balaclavas on their heads but it hadn't been pulled over their faces and you could see that they were two black persons?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And the point where we reached yesterday was where I put to you that you had consistently refused to co-operate with, as you put it, Erasmus and Shaw and another person, Horn I think you mentioned?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: To co-operate with the security branch but nevertheless when you drove off on the bakkie after they had identified you, you had no problem talking to them about COSAS and the UDF and the ANC?

MR MOHAPE: No, no, I think you must not mistaken.  A mere discussion with a person who is just talking to you and a person who's asking questions that he wants to use those questions against you and with those guys in the bakkie, as they just talking generally about COSAS, I was free because I've been free in the past to answer the very same questions to security branch members about COSAS and I will go to as far as telling them: "Yes I'm involved in COSAS.
	Yes, COSAS has it's old objectives and it has problems to achieve" and that information to me, it was not information that will incriminate me or anybody else in COSAS.  Anybody knew about that because every problem of COSAS or anything have been appearing in statements in the newspapers, on T.V's and everywhere, so that was nothing new that I could hide to anybody else.

MR VISSER: Is it at all possible for you today to just give us general description of the body build of these two people or one of them?  Were they slightly built,  heavily built, tall, whatever? Can you remember?

MR MOHAPE: Ja, I remember the one came out of the bakkie and introduced himself as a security branch member.  He was short, he was not tall, he was I think of my size now and with body, I think he was the same body or bigger than mine.

MR VISSER: And how would you describe that?  Medium?

MR MOHAPE: Probably.

MR VISSER: Right, and the driver?

MR MOHAPE: The driver, I did not get his tallness because he was sitting in the car so I could not determine if this one is short or tall.

MR VISSER: Right, but the fact is that - let me ask you rather, did you fit in quite comfortably on the front seat between these two people in an Isuzu bakkie or was it a cramped situation?

MR MOHAPE: No, it was not cramped.

MR VISSER: Not cramped.  When you gave your evidence and you mentioned the money which you received back from the police at Bayswater, our notes state that you weren't sure of the exact amount?

MR MOHAPE: No, I told you it was one hundred and sixty.

MR VISSER: So you are quite sure it was one hundred and sixty?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I'm quite sure.

MR VISSER: Alright.  The two people that came to fetch you that evening, have you ever seen them again after that day?

MR MOHAPE: No, since that day I did not see them.  And one thing is that because I said I could not picture, put their face into my memory, therefore it is difficult for me to recall exactly, even if this person can come now here, I may not even be able to recognise him.

MR VISSER: Mr Mohape, is it correct that during the course of last year when evidence was lead before this committee, you did attend the hearings?

MR MOHAPE: Yes I've been attending hearings.

MR VISSER: Did you attend all the hearings or only some of them?

MR MOHAPE: I cannot recall correct but I attended hearings.

MR VISSER: Okay.  Did you listen, did you hear, the evidence of Mr Ngo when he gave evidence regarding the incident concerning you?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: Were you satisfied that what he was saying was the truth?

MR MOHAPE: Let me explain this thing.  You see when a policeman or security branch comes before the Truth Commission and explains situations that I been trying to get answers to, I will listen to that statement because I want the truth and if a person comes and tell about the very same thing that I wanted to know who are the people, I will listen to that.
	I would want to correlate exactly with what happened to me because I want answers to exactly what happened to me.  Who are those people who kidnapped me?  I want that answer and if somebody comes and give information to that he is welcomed and the better if his handlers can do the very same thing.

MR VISSER: Mr Mohape, did what Mr Ngo said about your assault that he gave evidence about, accord with the facts as you knew them?

MR MOHAPE: You see, the information of Ngo in his evidence yes, correlates with what happened to me and there is one thing that I know he also said, he was not aware, he didn't hear the shots because he had already moved here that time.  I don't know if he did move here that time or not but 99% of what he said, 100? what he said is correct.

MR VISSER: Hundred percent?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: As far as the detail as well?

MR MOHAPE: I don't know if details can detail if you are beaten by left or right or whatever but the whole scenario and the exact attack to me, it was exactly what happened to him.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Just the last point, two points, on you leaving Bayswater Police Station.  I'm informed that there is no general rule that when a prisoner is released, or a detainee is released, that he is automatically taken home.

MR MOHAPE: Who's telling you that?

MR VISSER: I'm instructed Mr Mohape, just answer the question.