Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-24

JACQUES HECHTER: You know, you obtain information which said that the terrorists were on their way, they should be there 
tonight and when you go up there, they weren't there.  Then you would go back the following night, or you 
would make contact with your source and say look, I was there last night, the people aren't there, what is 
happening?
	You know we were in a war situation, that is not a matter of picking up the phone and phoning 
people quickly.  Your sources aren't always readily available and we worked 
to the best of our ability on information which we received from our informants at that stage.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... Tsele's house two days or three days after as you've just indicated, to check whether 
the terrorist were there?

JACQUES HECHTER: No, after he had been shot the terrorists would have avoided that house at all 
costs because it would have been spread throughout the Black township.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... Joe Mamasela, Joe Mamasela that day?

JACQUES HECHTER: He was under Brigadier Cronje's command.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did the Botswana Police or Botswana Internal Security Unit have knowledge about this?

JACQUES HECHTER: Not at all?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why?

JACQUES HECHTER: They did not have any knowledge about our actions at all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why not?

JACQUES HECHTER: We did not work as closely with them at this level.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But surely you had to go and operate in another country?

JACQUES HECHTER: Yes, but we did not know them in this 
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 23

JACQUES HECHTER: instance.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

JUDGE WILSON: You and Brigadier Cronje have told us what a dangerous man this Tsele was, 
that is correct, isn't it?

JACQUES HECHTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: If I understand you, you have told us more than the Brigadier had, that there 
were hundreds of people who were injured or killed as a result of the bus boycotts?

JACQUES HECHTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: And this was going on all the time?

JACQUES HECHTER: That is also correct, Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: And Tsele's house was being used as a safe
house all the time, terrorists were coming through there, flocking back to the country?

JACQUES HECHTER: I came to know about that at the office that day for the first time, Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: What I have difficulty in understanding is why you didn't go there 
immediately to eradicate Tsele, this danger, this constant danger to the country?  Can you explain why?

JACQUES HECHTER: I understand your problem.  Chairperson, if you eliminated one man and you 
had the opportunity - as our information which was brought to us on that day said that there was a 
possibility that there will be four or five or more terrorists who were going to come through.  As I 
explained to Mr Mpshe, the information came through that Tsele was expecting men from the other side, 
those were people trained across the borders and that he was expecting them that evening.
	If we were to get there and the people were not there, 
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GAUTENG: 24

JACQUES HECHTER: we would have withdrawn.  If they were to have been there, we would have shot them all.  If Mr Tsele was 
not eliminated that evening, he would probably at a later stage, we are not trying to reason away the fact 
that he would have been eliminated, even if it was at a later stage, but what remains a fact is that that 
evening, he would probably not have been eliminated if the terrorists were not there.  He was eliminated 
by, let's call it an oversight on the part of Joe Mamasela.  Perhaps he misunderstood the Brigadier, perhaps 
he thought that it was easier to shoot him.  We cannot try and make you understand how he saw it, but what 
we know is when the Brigadier stopped us and said go and see what is happening there and come and 
report back.
	Then further decisions would have been taken as to what to do.

JUDGE WILSON: What worries me is it appears from your evidence and Brigadier Cronje's that 
you were more interested in using this dangerous man Tsele as bait to get terrorists into his house than in 
eliminating him.  That is the evidence you've both given.

JACQUES HECHTER: That may have been so, but that evening it was so.  That evening we had 
information that the terrorists were coming, or that they were on their way so if we could have eliminated 
five or six terrorists together with Tsele, it would have been better than eliminating only Tsele.
	At that time the terrorists had come in, they had received the warning that Tsele was dead and we 
did not know who they were or where to trace them.  So if we were to have found them at  Tsele's house, it 
would have been so much better.

JUDGE WILSON: And how long had Tsele been carrying on this 
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GAUTENG: 24

JACQUES HECHTER: work of his, this boycotting, safe house?

JACQUES HECHTER: I cannot answer you about the safe house.  The boycotts took place over a 
period of time, but as I said I do not know, it was not my forte, it was the Union Unit, we worked with 
different members and the labour Union Unit would have known the exact actions and from time to time I 
received the information from my informants and his name would have surfaced and I had received 
information that he was involved.
	But my people were not given the task of monitoring his movements.  He was a subject of the 
labour unions and we had a specific Unit which dealt with union people.

JUDGE WILSON: So you didn't really know very much about
him?  You heard rumours that there were going to be terrorists there that night and on the strength of this 
rumour, which was unfounded as it turned out, you went there as part of the Force that was going to hit?

JACQUES HECHTER: There was no need for me to know that, I was acting on instruction of my 
Commanding Officer, he gave me an instruction to accompany him and I accompanied him to go and 
perform a duty.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Hechter, the instructions you received, was that if the trained terrorists were present 
in the house of Mr Tsele, you were to eliminate both Mr Tsele and the trained terrorists?

JACQUES HECHTER: That is correct Chairperson.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At that stage, had you discussed the modus operandi you would have used in the 
elimination?

JACQUES HECHTER: No Chairperson.  We would have waited for Mamasela to have come back and 
explain to us how many persons there were, and where they were and then we would 
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GAUTENG: 25

JACQUES HECHTER: have finalised the plan.  We could not have finalised the plan under those circumstances before the time 
because you did not know what the exact circumstances were, you had to wait to find out what the 
circumstances were.
	After the circumstances were explained to us, we would have taken a decision as to what to have 
done.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But your intention was to eliminate them once that information had been received from 
Mamasela, there and then?

JACQUES HECHTER: Yes, there and then.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How were you armed?  There were five officers some of which were senior officers.

JACQUES HECHTER: It is difficult to say, but I assume I would have been armed with an AK47 and I 
would also have had handgrenades - in all probability I would have had handgrenades in my possession as 
well.	That is probably how I would have been armed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Is there any re-examination?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.