Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-13

MR BOTHA: In this storage room, there were limpet mines, SPM limpet mines, mini limpet mines, the detonators for these limpet mines and I cannot recall if there were any other weapons.

MR VISSER: You have already explained to the Committee that after that, you went back to the safe house in Verulam where you left Taylor, Van der Westhuizen with Nxiweni.  These weapons, limpet mines, did you take it with you?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you know what happened to it?

MR BOTHA: I cannot recall exactly what happened to it, I can speculate, but I am not sure.

MR VISSER: What did you usually do with such weapons?

MR BOTHA: We would hand it in and send it back to Pretoria and we would report that it is information we have received from an informant that led to this find.

MR VISSER: Was this the case with these weaponry?

MR BOTHA: It could have been possibly.

MR VISSER: You returned to Verulam and you arrived at the safety house, and you say Taylor took control and he said Van der Westhuizen and yourself could leave.  Did Taylor remain behind with Wasserman, and you don't know what happened thereafter?

MR BOTHA: Not from my own knowledge, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going on to something else now?

MR VISSER: No Mr Chairman, I need to deal with an aspect straight away now concerning the amnesty application of Mr Taylor, at page 62 - 63, particularly page 63 of volume 2 Mr Chairman.
	Mr Botha, with the permission of the Committee, I would like to read this paragraph to you in context, and I would like you to comment on two incidents which Colonel Taylor mentions in his application.  He says it was clear to me that he was a dangerous terrorist who would not stop his activities and if released, would continue to be a threat to the security of the State.
	It was also apparent that there was insufficient evidence to remove him from society, through the normal channels of the Court, due to the fact that he had already been acquitted.  We discussed the matter and Botha and I together decided that he should be eliminated.
	I then started to dig a grave, meanwhile Botha went with him to the Allen Taylor residence, where a dead letter box containing certain arms and ammunition was found.  He was brought back to the farm and eliminated.  I cannot remember today who actually pulled the trigger.  It wasn't me, but I admit that I was part of the decision to kill him.
	I do recall that myself and Colonel Botha were definitely present.  I would just like to stop there.  Did you listen to what I read to you?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: The words that I have read to you, are those words correct?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Well he alleges and the late Colonel will not be here to cross-examine, but I put it that is it possible that he could have thought that the two of you took the decision to kill Pumeso, that the two of you took the decision together?

MR BOTHA: It is possible that he could have thought that.

MR VISSER: We don't know what he thought, but he says the two of you did it together.  He stated it as a fact, but what is more important is that he says that you went to the Allen Taylor residence, you took Pumeso with you?

MR BOTHA: That is not correct Chairperson.  Pumeso remained behind in the presence of Sergeant Van der Westhuizen.

MR VISSER: And that is why you would not have brought him back, because he was not with you in the first instance?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And then Taylor says that he recalls that the two of you, that is Colonel Taylor and you, Mr Botha, were present when Pumeso were killed.

MR BOTHA: I don't know if Colonel Taylor was present, but I was not.

MR VISSER: You apply for amnesty, you said that you took the decision that he should be killed.  If you were there, you would have said so?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.  Those of us who knew Colonel Taylor, we saw how his illness had deteriorated and in the later years of 1996, he could not recall quite well what had happened previously.

MR VISSER: I am just going to go over to something else, so if you want to ask something.

MR MALAN: You are moving away from Taylor's application?  Taylor says in his application, I don't know how we are going to deal with this precisely, but we have to consider it, that he dug the grave himself, or he started digging the grave himself.  Would that be in his nature as the senior person present there?

MR BOTHA: It is possible.  Colonel Taylor was a strange man at times.  I was not there, so I would not know if he did dig the grave.

MR VISSER: Excuse me, before you move away from that, there would be evidence from Van der Westhuizen to that fact, with regard to the digging of the grave.

MR MALAN: I would also like to know, Mr Botha gave evidence and according to him, he could not say who Nxiweni was killed.  I want to know if he has any other knowledge as to who did what and what happened there?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.  After the incident I was informed that Nxiweni was shot and buried.

MR MALAN: You were informed that he was shot by whom?

MR BOTHA: We do not say to each other I pulled the trigger or he pulled the trigger.   I just assumed that Laurie and Sam or Wasserman  and Du Preez shot him, and that he was buried.

CHAIRPERSON: I was asked this morning, to take more frequent, shorter adjournments, particularly considering the conditions that exist for the Interpreters, and I wondered if we should do that now, how they are feeling?
	Do they want a short adjournment?  We will take a short adjournment now, we may be taking another one at half past eleven, slightly longer, but this is just for a few minutes to let people get a breath of fresh air.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
H.J.P. BOTHA: (still under oath)

MR VISSER: (continued)  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Botha, this incident occurred according to your evidence, on the 4th.  I see our sound engineer running around in confusion Mr Chairman, I am not sure whether I can continue.
	Mr Botha, this incident with regard to Pumeso Nxiweni occurred on the 4th and 5th of November of 1988, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you were able to give those dates as to what happened, or what is written in Exhibit A, these incidents?

MR BOTHA: No, when I completed the application, I did not have Exhibit A to my availability.  There were other documents, but the dates are correct according to the statistics.

MR VISSER: In the following days, what happened in the following days?  Page 10 Mr Chairman of bundle 2.

MR MALAN: Before you continue, the other documents that you referred to, what is the nature thereof, which you could find the dates from?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, there was a document with regard to statistics, it was an official police document and Commissioner Fivas gave an instruction that before the - where there were applicants who needed assistance in terms of documentation, who was in possession of the South African Police, had to be made available.

MR MALAN: Just a follow up question, the so-called Phoenix on page 36, the Phoenix explosion at the station, would that be written in that document, the statistics?

MR BOTHA: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Is it possible then that other false entries were also written in there?

MR BOTHA: What do you mean with false entries?

MR MALAN: The point I am trying to make is, and I just put the question quickly, when we referred to the false flag operations, I think it is common cause that the incident of the 18th of November, was not an act of terror?

MR BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR MALAN: I also think that it is common cause that there were other such false flag operations?

MR BOTHA: There were more, yes.

MR MALAN: And some of them would also be written in here in the official statistics?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And also in a local register?

MR BOTHA: Yes sir.