Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct, but I do not know the home made weapon or firearm that was brought to court as evidence.  I still have the one home-made weapon at home to this day.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, you mentioned that you still have this one home-made weapon...(intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: You were wrongly convicted in court?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The one home-made firearm that was brought before the court, really is something that I do not know.  I can, given a chance, produce the firearm that I am talking about.  I don't even know the weapons that they brought to court.  I was using a 9mm ammunition for my home-made firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: Why didn't you take your 9mm on that day?  Why did you take this home-made thing?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I had my home-made firearm and not the 9mm.

ADV DE JAGER: But you had the 9mm with you since you took it from Mdo's cache, after a day after his death?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I used it during the attack and then I put it away and instead used the home-made weapon and used the 9mm ammunition instead.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, on the day that the victim was murdered, was the 9mm on your possession, or on your person?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it really matter, Mr Panday?

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, I believe the applicant led evidence to the effect that he put the 9mm away and used the 9mm ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will request you to confine yourself to what he himself is asking for amnesty which is the home made gun.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam.  Mr Dlamini, you mentioned now that the home-made gun is up to today, still kept.  Do you know where that gun is?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he given evidence with regard to that?  His evidence is that he can produce it because it is still with him at his home.  That's the evidence I heard.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, now I'm going to ask you about the ammunition that you used in the home-made gun.  Where did you get ...(intervention).

MR MALAN: Sorry Chair, if I may just pursue this, I know you've made a certain statement about this, but how would know that the home-made gun is still at your place, since you were arrested and taken to court.  You never had bail and you haven't been out since your arrest?  Why do you tell us that you know where this home-made gun is and you can still produce it?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The reason why I am saying this is because I was arrested at home where I was sleeping.  I left this firearm in the hands of my father.

MR MALAN: Yes, but who tells you that they did not get the firearm from your father?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Nobody told me so.  I am sure that the police cannot find it at the place where it is hidden.

MR MALAN: How do you know that the firearm in court was not the same firearm?  Why do you tell us that it was not the same firearm?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: They produced the firearm in the Supreme Court, but I realised that it was not mine.  Maybe they brought somebody else's firearm, somebody who maybe was present on the day of my arrest, I don't know.

MR MALAN: Was there a difference?  Was it a different kind of firearm, the one in court?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, it was different in the - the one produced in court had been made using a blank and a pipe and a door shooter.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure that I understand this and I don't know whether I have to look towards the interpreters or the applicant.  You say it was a pipe gun?  Like a - what kind of bullets did the one in the court fire?  Not 9mm? Can you describe us your home-made gun?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The one that I bought in Tongaat, was made such that it uses 9mm pistol, it was made with a steel, an iron and the kind of an iron that is used for making chairs.

ADV DE JAGER: So it was quite different from the one in court?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, it was different.

MR MALAN: Right, I don't think we can get any further.  We won't get further.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, you were still leading him with regard to unlawful possession of ammunition.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, at court you were also convicted of possession or unlawful possession of ammunition, that being a shotgun round SSG, shotgun round.  Now can you explain to the Committee as to your possession of such a round?  Firstly where did you get this round from?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We buy this ammunition.

MR PANDAY: Where do you buy this ammunition?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: In town.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you in possession of this cartridge that they've shown in court?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, I did not see it.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you ever have a shotgun cartridge in your possession?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, I cannot remember.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, when the police arrested you, did they arrest you at the place you stay?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And when they arrested you, did they find any ammunition on yourself or in the house?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, they did not find any firearms on my person, but in the house where I was sleeping.

MR PANDAY: You say in the house where you were sleeping they found this ammunition?

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you identify what kind of ammunition was found in the house, we've got two kinds of ammunition?

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, you mentioned that they found ammunition in your house, what type of ammunition did they find in your house?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: They found in the house 9mm ammunition.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, is it also possible that you may have had shotgun cartridges in your house that you can't recall?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot remember very well.

MR PANDAY: But it is possible?

CHAIRPERSON: We don't deal with possibilities, Mr Panday, we deal with facts.  Was it within personal knowledge that a shotgun cartridge that he was convicted of, was his or not?

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, the shotgun cartridge that you have been convicted of having, was that cartridge your cartridge or not?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: If they were 9mm cartridges, they must be mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, your counsel is not putting to you whether these were 9mm cartridges, you are being told that shotgun cartridges were found, a cartridge from a shotgun was found in your house, do you know anything about that?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, I do not remember them.

CHAIRPERSON: You have never possessed a shotgun cartridge?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Empty cartridges, no I do not keep such things.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, are you now 100% denying that you had this shotgun cartridge?

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Panday, we don't want to know to what extent he is denying.  A denial is a denial.  It needn't be in terms of degrees.  He has denied that.  I don't think you can elicit anything other than what he has already given evidence to.

MR PANDAY: As Madam Chair pleases.  Mr Dlamini, you mentioned that the ammunition was also purchased from town, ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: He didn't possess this ammunition, so I don't know why we're further pursuing it because if he hadn't had it in his possession, he can't get amnesty for something that he didn't have in his possession.  As far as the shotgun ammunition is concerned and in the Indictment he was convicted of having 1 SSG shotgun round in his possession and he denies, so he was wrongly convicted.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, I'm going to summarise ...(intervention).