Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot remember.  I know he was trained in Zambia and Angola.  I regarded him as a very good short-term person to use to infiltrate as he could take their minds very quickly.  I cannot say whether it was in Lesotho. I think he would have known Lesotho, because I would not have had infiltrate from Lesotho if he had not known the place.  So, I would not have used a country which was unknown to him, because if they asked him counter-questions he would be able to have answers for this.

MS PATEL: That is curious, Mr Bellingan, because Mr Mbane denies that he was ever trained in Lesotho?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As I have just said he might have been there with us, we might have been involved in operation, he might have been there with us, I might have briefed him about something and it might also have been that he, we said that he was replacing the Lesotho terrorist which was eliminated, but that he infiltrates from Botswana.  So, this is debatable.  Jimmy Mbane and them have reasonable background of all the neighbouring states, so he was not ignorant.  You must remember that training is, does not only take place in a camp, also in a house, hand grenade training goes, counts as military training in Lesotho.

MS PATEL: He says, further, that his only previous operation that he was involved in from Vlakplaas was in Swaziland at some stage and that the legend, as you so term it, that he used, did not relate to Lesotho.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As I say, then we are contradicting one another.  I might have said that he is from Lesotho, from Botswana, but just keep to their modus operandi.  These were small technical things which one can debate.  I do not have any documentation in front of me where I can say that this is what I said point by point.  We could have just spoken generally, but in December 1985 and ANC cell was eliminated in Lesotho and we would have used this as a basis from which to say that we are here to replace those men, be it from Botswana or Swaziland.  At that stage I did not know whether the ANC came to the Cape directly from Swaziland.

MS PATEL: Is it possible, then, given that you do not have any documentation to refresh your memory and that it happened such a long time ago, that it is possible that Mr Mbane would not have used Lesotho as a source point for him?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That possibility might exist.

MS PATEL: Did you at any stage during the infiltration supply Mr Mbane with further arms and ammunition?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I did not provide any further arms and weapons, but it might be that after the ANC shooting at the police vehicle that I might have given him five or ten rounds, that might be, in order for him to say to them that he went to fetch it out of his dead letter box, but he has still some more ammunition, but that it was kept in a safe place at the Malmesbury Road, do not be concerned about it, we do have weapons and that this could have been part of the legend, it might have been, but I did not provide them with any possible weapons, but, possibly, with ammunition.

MS PATEL: All right.  And you are certain, though, that Mr Mbane would have said to you that this group is a dangerous group and that they have been trained?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I am sure of this and I have also mentioned earlier that at one stage during May, in the SABC programme of Max du Preez, that we saw that the Guguletu 7 freedom fighter got away and he said that he was part of that group, they did not trust the askaris, they were trained better than they were, so they infiltrated an existing group.

MS PATEL: Would they have been trained overseas or out of the country?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Many of them received training here, but that person that I think was killed in Lesotho, it might be that some of them, regarding the modus operandi, at that stage, when people went to Lesotho for two to three weeks or to Botswana on a so-called holiday with a legitimate passport and then he undergoes training there.  So, it could have been that some of them, according to the encoded message, that they might have had training overseas.

MS PATEL: All right, but you are assuming that, you do not know that for sure?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: At that stage, yes, but I cannot say with sureness now.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Mr Mbane says, further, that the only person out of this group that was trained was Chris Piet, the rest were not trained at all and that this information was clearly relayed to both yourself and Mr Liebenberg and that was done at a very early stage in the operation.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I am going to differ with him.  If I go back to all those encoded messages and 441, etcetera, I keep to a, I stick to what is written here, I would not have sucked this out of my thumb.  Jimmy Mbane would have conveyed this to me, whether he, the identification of the bodies of whatever, I will keep to this.  I would not have given a piece of fiction to the Commissioner of Police and sucked this out of my thumb, so I will definitely differ from that.

MS PATEL: Okay.  To deal with the point of the information that is on that document.  Would you accept that it is part, a normal part of the process of ascertaining whether new persons joining the group are, in fact, legitimate persons, that part of that process entails that the new person coming in initially gives full disclosure as to his background, his family, his history, where he has been trained, by whom and that once he has been accepted into that group, that the reverse then holds true, that the person who has then been accepted into the group then is able, by that same token, to request the same information from the group that he has infiltrated?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, it would have happened like that.  A freedom fighter from abroad would have been on a pedestal as opposed to those trained inside and there would have been mutual communication.  They drink together at night, they talk to one another, they boast about what they have done, the motivation, the political motivation which has to take place to say that the men from outside say that we must keep the struggle going.  This would all have been part of what you have referred to.

MS PATEL: And that information would have been relayed to you as well?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, out of that Jimmy and Eric came to me and I would debrief them and I would put them on a possible tape recorded and then hand in my report after that.  It  should have taken place like that, yes.

MS PATEL: In order to cross-reference the information that your askari would have been or would have requested from the group, details such as the persons addresses would have been included.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, because there were different monitoring actions which we could launch.  You could add another informer, you could have done legal telephone tapping, you can intercept the post and there were different other actions which you could have taken, although that I do not have written proof, but Liebenberg will be able to confirm that we did all possible methods or we, to ensure that that address did belong to the freedom fighters family.

MS PATEL: This information, then, given that Mr Mbane had infiltrated at quite some time before the actual incident occurred and that in order for him to have been accepted or for them, for him to have accepted their information, that would have been relayed to them or to Mr Mbane at a very early stage in the operation.  So, you would have been in possession of the addresses of these people which would have been legitimate if they would have wanted your askaris to be accepted.