Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

HASSAN MALL: Whilst you were there at the scene, did you see anybody else at all use a firearm on the deceased?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, not on the deceased, only that one shot which Frans Oosthuisen had fired.

HASSAN MALL: In what language was the deceased questioned by the police?  I'm sorry, by Mr Gerber.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: He was questioning him in Afrikaans and I was translating into Northern Sotho.

HASSAN MALL: So all the questions were put to him in Afrikaans, translated by you?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: And naturally when you spoke to him yourself, you spoke in Sotho.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

HASSAN MALL: Did anybody make any notes of what was being said at that stage?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, there was no notes taken, Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: What was the reaction of Gerber and his companion when the deceased persisted in having no knowledge of the crime that he was being questioned, what was their reaction?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: It seems they were not interested in that.  They just wanted him to tell them what they wanted him to tell them.

HASSAN MALL: After many, many hours of putting the same question to him, over and over and over again, and getting the same reply from the deceased.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, Chairperson.

HASSAN MALL: Was there a time when they decided that they might as well let this man go?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: At no stage while I was there, it was only one person, Frans Oosthuisen who came, he came with that suggestion. It seems he was, the thing was, he was feeling very bad about it, about the torture.

HASSAN MALL: When did your friend or your companion, Julius die, or when was he deceased?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: He died last year, 27 April, because of a car accident, whilst on duty.

HASSAN MALL: Do you know anything at all about the scene where the deceased was killed, being revisited the next day or the day after by either Mr Gerber or anybody else?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, I have got no idea on that.

HASSAN MALL: You did not accompany them to the scene on any other occasion after that day?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, no, not.

HASSAN MALL: When you came back after having gone to buy cooldrinks, I got the impression you said that when you arrived that you saw a fire there.  Is that correct?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, that is the fire which was busy dying out.

HASSAN MALL: The fire was busy dying?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: How long had you been away to go and buy these cooldrinks?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Okay, say maybe 10 to 20 minutes.

HASSAN MALL: And whilst the deceased was hanging from the tree in that position, was his head covered all the time?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, no, he was not covered.  He was only covered at the first scene.  At the second scene his head was not covered.

HASSAN MALL: His head was not covered.  Were you responsible for assisting and bringing him down eventually from the tree?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: At the last ...

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: By the time they said we must brought him back to the bakkie?

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I was responsible.

HASSAN MALL: Was there any sign of any damage or injury as a result of fire?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: What did you see?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: His hair was, he had maybe the same size of my hair, but it was burnt up to the scalp.

HASSAN MALL: His head was burnt?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, and his head was swollen too.

HASSAN MALL: What injuries did you see apart from those that you have described?  You said his eyes were red, his face was swollen, did you see any other injuries on his body?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Only the rope marks where the rope was tied on the legs.

HASSAN MALL: On his legs?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Yes, and even where he (indistinct).

HASSAN MALL: Did he have his shoes on?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, there was no shoes on.

HASSAN MALL: Was his trousers still on when you got him down?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, it was on him, but his private part was still exposed.

HASSAN MALL: Exposed?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's right, since the first time I arrived there, his private parts was exposed the whole day.

HASSAN MALL: Did he have a shirt on?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: A shirt or a T-shirt, but he had a karate suit, jacket, karate suit on top.

HASSAN MALL: Whilst he was having from the tree?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That is correct, but it was, as he was hanging, it was sometimes, used to cover him.

JUDGE WILSON: You have told us about how these people drinking and did you go to the bottle store with Oosthuisen?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, your Honour.

JUDGE WILSON: And is it correct that he there bought a bottle of brandy, a litre bottle of vodka and some more Coke and Sparkling Lemon?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, your Honour.

JUDGE WILSON: And was that taken back by them to continue their drinking?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: When did Van Wyk return, under his direct command or were you staying under Gerber's command?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I stayed there for some few weeks, after he came back and then after that I started reporting again back to him.

ADV DE JAGER: But  ... (intervention).

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: But most of - sorry, most of the time I used to, I was at security department's offices.

ADV DE JAGER: At Van Wyk's office or at Gerber's office?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: At Gerber's office, but Van Wyk's office is different, in a different building.

ADV DE JAGER: So then you weren't worried about your undercover then, staying with them?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: Not exactly, because he is the only man in the office, I never moved a lot with them, around in the streets.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, and you said they were sitting about 200 metres from where the deceased was running.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they never present at the place where he was hanging?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I beg your pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: Weren't they sitting at the place where he was hanging?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: No, they were only when they were busy torturing him, after that they went back to their cars, you know, to drink, continue with their drinking.

ADV DE JAGER: So they didn't sit there and ask questions and you were interpreting.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: They have done that, when they see that they cannot get what they wanted, then they decided to leave and go and have some drink.

ADV DE JAGER: When did they leave the scene or when did they leave the tree and went to sit at the cars, what time round about?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: I would say that it was 30 minutes, after the first time it was, when I came back from the shop with the cooldrinks, because they used to go one by one for him for some drink and then come back and then, but the first time when I came back from the shop with the first drink, all of them they decided no, since they have got the ice cold cooldrinks then they can go and sit by their car and drink.  Then later they came back again, to continue with that.

ADV DE JAGER: So after all of them went to the car and now started drinking, did they come back to the deceased or were they sitting at the cars all the time?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: They came back.  After they finished maybe with that drink, when they had enough, they came back to the deceased.  They wanted to continue with the torturing and getting more information.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can I just ask you, what exactly is your evidence there; did these people after tying up the deceased, question him, then go back to sit at a certain point and occasionally come back and go back or occasionally go back to the deceased and go back, or what is the position?