Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: We then dispersed.  It was indicated that now that we had accomplished our mission we dispersed to our respective places.  We left the Chevrolet behind because it could not move anymore.  We tool the Renault and the Mazda, we went to Kabelo's place to establish or check out as to whether his home has been attacked or not and later on we were dropped off at Orlando and that was now at night.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I think, okay just one last thing.  Did you also go into exile after this incident.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes I went to exile with my very same co-applicants, my comrades.

MR TLOUBATLA: Any specific thing that you were doing, were you part of the organisation and what were you doing and when did you come back?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: When we left the country we were actually were collected by a comrade at Tamee (indistinct) in Dlamini, we went to Botswana and we went to a refugee camp and that is where found other comrades at the camp.  I was trained on certain military activities and I ended up being commander of that very same camp.  At that very same time I had been shot in another place, isolated from this incident, and I then went to Zimbabwe where medical treatment could be given to me properly, right up to the time when Samora Michelle died.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not interested (indistinct), we are not getting there.  Did you then come back into the country at some point?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I came back in 1994 in August.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I think that will be all from me.  I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until tomorrow, half past nine.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION ON 10 JUNE 1998  -  DAY 3

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Thandakubona you testified yesterday that you were not part of the group of people who had accosted the six youths.  Is that so?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR AMEEN: When was the first time that you saw these six youths on that day?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I saw them for the first time when they were walking up and down singing.

MR AMEEN: And how did you identify them?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I was able to identify them because of the clothes they were wearing.  I will try to remember.  I recognised people who were wearing grey flannel school uniform and there was one who was wearing something like a brand (indistinct) trousers, white shirts, that's how I can remember that these were the people that we saw at Orlando West earlier on.

MR AMEEN: So, there has been testimony earlier by your co-applicants that some of these youths were wearing T-shirts.  Do you remember that?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes I do remember that.

MR AMEEN: Then why didn't you mention it just now when I asked you what they were wearing?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: You will remember that they had worn the T-shirts underneath and a shirt on top, not that they were just wearing the T-shirts.

MR AMEEN: So if they were wearing these T-shirts under their shirts, you could not have seen them as they were walking up and down, you could not have seen the T-shirts that they were wearing because they would have been covered with their shirts and their blazers probably?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes that is correct.

MR AMEEN: So the evidence given earlier by your two co-applicants that they recognised these youths by the T-shirts they were wearing is incorrect?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: It is true, you see the T-shirt story comes when we were in the house.

MR AMEEN: But the point - when these youths were allegedly marching up and down in front of Jeff Lingani's house?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether anybody said that, that they identified them by their T-shirts which they had been seen wearing during the time when they were going up and down the street?

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman that is my impression.

CHAIRPERSON: I do recall that they said that amongst the people who were singing and going up and down the street, some of them had some T-shirts but I do not recall of a piece of evidence which says precisely these six people were also identified because at the time when they were going up and down the street they themselves, the six, to also were having T-shirts.  It isn't that - there is no such evidence.  Evidence that we have linking them with the T-shirts - what the evidence which says they had T-shirts on was the evidence which said they had T-shirts on, they discovered they had some T-shirts on while they were in the house, the T-shirts were worn inside the shirts.

MR AMEEN: Alright thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm trying to say to you there is evidence that among the people who were going up and down the street, there were people who had T-shirts on, but the evidence did not go so far as to say precisely the six were also seen having T-shirts while they were going up and down the street.

MR AMEEN: Okay.  Now ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible).  Yes Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you.  Now going back to the point where these youths were accosted.  You testified that you were not present.  The two survivors that are here today who will give evidence later on will say that you were among the three people who accosted them and took them to two cars parked two streets away.  That they were put into those cars under gunpoint and that they were taken to Jeff Lingani's house or to a house which turned out to be Jeff Lingani's house.  I'm just putting that to you.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: It is true that I was present at the time when they were apprehended for the first time and taken into these two vehicles.  We took them to Jeff's house.  I concur with that, we also had a gun.

MR AMEEN: And they were taken under gunpoint?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes they had already seen that we had a gun so they would not try to flee.

MR AMEEN: Now, you testified that you took part in the assaults on these six youths at Jeff Lingani's house and that you only used your palms, your fists and your feet, that you did not use any of the weapons which were at the house in the assault.  I want to put it to you that the two survivors will say that you did assault them but not in the way that you described, that you did use those weapons that were there, the guns, the iron rod with which to assault them.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: If you still remember very well I did indicate yesterday that as far as I remember, I was in the kitchen and the someone that I really did assault in the kitchen I went into another room, beat another one up and assaulted another one in another room, but most of the time I was using my bear hands and feet.  I did not have a gun that day.  It may have happened that I borrowed it from someone and used it to assault them.

MR AMEEN: So you are prepared to concede that you did use those weapons, if not all the time, at least some of the time.

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes I would agree with that.

MR AMEEN: There was also evidence yesterday, not by you but by one of the co-applicants when it was put to him that a pliers was used on the private parts of these youths.  You recall that evidence?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes I do recall that evidence.

MR AMEEN: Can you tell this committee whether you were one of the people who used the pliers on the private parts of these youths?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: I did not use a pair of pliers but I know that one of us did use a pliers.

MR AMEEN: Did you see the pliers being used?

MXOLISI ERNEST THANDAKUBONA: Yes I did see him use it.

MR AMEEN: Can you describe to the court how it was done?  Sorry, to the committee.