Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-10

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.  And in your statement you say that you immediately laid a charge, and Officers Baas and Brumape were put in charge of the investigation.  Are these officers still alive?

WITNESS:   One of them has retired.  Baas has retired.

COMMISSIONER: And Brumape?

WITNESS:   I think he is still alive.

COMMISSIONER: Is he still a police officer?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: In Kroonstad?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: And how far did these two gentlemen go with the investigation, do you know?

WITNESS:   They never took the case any further.  We haven't heard a single thing about it.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.  And again in your statement, Allie, you say that you gave the police names of suspects from the Three Million Gang.  I am just going to check because you may not remember them and I need to help you.  Is it true that the suspects you gave the police were Martin Woods ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   Marlin Woods.

COMMISSIONER: It's Marlin, not Martin - Marlin.  Fabian Hardy.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

COMMISSIONER: Reginald Buffel.

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Lieben Botha?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Edith Botha?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: And Baba Bester.

WITNESS:   (No reply)

COMMISSIONER: Is that true?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: So what happened to these people now after you had given the names to the police?  Do you know?

WITNESS:   They were called in for investigation on that particular day, and then they were set free again.

COMMISSIONER: Do you know where they are now?

WITNESS:   They are in Brand Park.  They are in Brand Park.

COMMISSIONER: Do you know if they are still the members of the Three Million Gang?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are still members.

COMMISSIONER: When this case - you saw that there was no progress, what did you do ... (inaudible) ... these people and they were taken for questioning, and that same day they were out.  What other step did you take?

WITNESS:   I did nothing further about the matter.

COMMISSIONER: Let me remind you.  I am not puzzled that you forget some of these things because you are under severe pain and trauma.  According to your statement you say that no progress was made with investigation despite the fact that you wrote to the Commissioner of Police, Mr Kallis.  Do you remember that?

WITNESS:   No, I can't remember that.  Sorry, yes, I did say so.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Kallis, is he also in Kroonstad?

WITNESS:   No, he is not in Kroonstad.

COMMISSIONER: Can others help if they know where Kallis is?

WITNESS:  He is in Welkom at present.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... of the police in Welkom?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

COMMISSIONER: Did Mr Kallis ever responded to the letter which was written to him?

WITNESS:   Yes, he sent somebody last month to come and investigate the case.

COMMISSIONER: He sent him last month.

WITNESS:   Yes.  After we had written the letter to the Commissioner.  But - may I continue?

COMMISSIONER: Do you know the name of this person who was sent to investigate the case, who was sent by him?

WITNESS:   Let me just think.  Let me just get it out.  (Pause)  I cannot remember at present. So how far is this person with his investigation?   ---   He has not been able to progress anything at all.  He said that he would return to us after the sitting of the Commission.

COMMISSIONER: When he said that he would come back to you after the sitting of the Commission did he mean this Commission, the Truth Commission?

WITNESS:   Yes, the Truth Commission.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.  Again according to this statement you say that in April this year, which is 1996, Sarah Prince confessed to Allie that she had been involved in plotting the death of Allie's husband.  Is that true?

WITNESS:   Yes, it's Sarah Prince.  It is correct, it is the truth.  May I just correct?

COMMISSIONER: Yes.

WITNESS:   May I just correct it?  She didn't admit that she was responsible for the death.  On the night of the murder, on the 28th of May, she was walking down Ronald Street with Andrew Petrus, and she was the last person who had been seen with Andrew Petrus.

COMMISSIONER: Sarah Prince was the one who was seen ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 3)

WITNESS:   I honestly don't know, because on the corner of Ronald Street there was a party at a house, it was Flippy's house, and she had turned off there, and when she walked in there four men surrounded Andrew.

COMMISSIONER: So she saw it?

WITNESS:   I won't say that, because she doesn't want to speak the entire truth.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... try and get the truth from her during the right time.  You say that again after a certain confession from Olivia Ross - who is this Olivia Ross?  The statement says here that, "After a certain confession from Olivia Ross," - what did Olivia Ross confess?

WITNESS:  She admitted that she had seen what had happened that evening.

COMMISSIONER: So Olivia Ross also was an eye witness?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct, she was also an eye witness.

COMMISSIONER: Is it true that Allie also wrote to the MEC for Safety and Security about this matter?

WITNESS:   Yes, she had.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   I honestly don't know.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   No, I never received any reply.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... MEC for Safety and Security.

WITNESS:   May I reply?

COMMISSIONER: Yes, if you know the name.

WITNESS:   Pappie Genary(?).

COMMISSIONER: Pappie?

WITNESS:   Pappie Genary, if I am correct.

COMMISSIONER: Pappie Genary?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Where are Dewitty's parents, do you know?

WITNESS:   In Kroonstad, Mokeng.

COMMISSIONER: Did you ever meet with them?

WITNESS:   Never.

COMMISSIONER: Where is Roland and Cassius?

WITNESS:   Roland is at present in gaol.  He is serving a sentence of 14 years.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   Yes, it's for the same case as Dewitty.

COMMISSIONER: And where is Cassius?

WITNESS:   Cassius is presently in Johannesburg, where he is working.

COMMISSIONER: So he was never convicted?

WITNESS:   No, he was never convicted.  It was only Roland who was convicted, and Dennis Bloem.

COMMISSIONER: Roland and Dennis Bloem were convicted?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

COMMISSIONER: Is Dennis Bloem too serving 14 years - a sentence of 14 years?

WITNESS:   No.  Dennis got a fine of R7 000,00 for being an accessory. Did he pay it?   ---   Yes, he paid it.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   Yes, he's out.

COMMISSIONER: May I know, Allie, if you are working?

WITNESS:   No, she is not working.

COMMISSIONER: Did you work before?

WITNESS:   No, I never worked.

COMMISSIONER: How do you support your children?

WITNESS:   My children receive money from welfare.  They receive a grant from welfare.

COMMISSIONER: They receive a grant of how much?  Do you know?

WITNESS:   It is R465,00.

COMMISSIONER: R460 ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   4-6-5, R465,00.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   Yes, it's per month.

COMMISSIONER: Your request here in your statement, you say that you want to know who killed your husband and why, and you also say that you want why the police are not prepared to do anything about that, and you also say that you want financial assistance towards maintaining and educating your children as the father is dead.  Before I complete this, is there any other thing you, Constance Bush and Philip Petrus, would like to add to all what you have said - not repeating what we have heard already?  Just if there are things which need to be added which would help us in dealing with this case.