Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR UNTERHALTER: You won't deny it though if she says so?

FRANK CHIKANE: No, I don't know because I don't know whether that house ...[intervention]

MR UNTERHALTER: Do you know my client?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, now I think we should maybe call a halt.  Any other?

MR RICHARD: Yes Chairman, thank you.  I represent Mr Jerry Vusimuzi Richardson and I think the Committee knows by now that my client has applied for amnesty for various atrocities including the death of Stompie Seipei, the Sono and Shabalala disappearances and so on - the record speaks.
 My first question is to Mr Mokoena.  I am correct in remember that you were leader of the Release Mandela at the time?

MR MOKOENA: That's correct, I was the National Coordinator of the Release Mandela Campaign.

MR RICHARD: And it's also correct that I have on good information, you were a regular visitor and a close friend of the Mandela house?

MR MOKOENA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: So, I need not go further down that line.  The next issue that I need to canvass is, when you negotiated with - what I'm going to call collectively, the Winnie Madikezela's house, who is it that you met with?

MR MOKOENA: We negotiated what?

MR RICHARD: At the time the beginning of 1989, when you went to the house where Mrs Madikizela Mandela lives, who did you meet with there?

MR MOKOENA: We as a collective met with Mrs Mandela and Zinzi.

MR RICHARD: So it was Zinzi Mandela and Mrs Mandela who discussed all matters with you?

MR MOKOENA: Well, there could have been a few other people around the house.  A house like that and at that time of crisis, there were relatives, there were people from the community, many stars etc., so it's difficult to say it was exclusively that audience - if one has to put it, that congregation of people.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, what is correct to say is that - as the Reverend Bishop Story said yesterday, it was very similar to a hostage negotiation where you had to be very, very tactful, very sensitive and very careful as to how you were moving.

MR MOKOENA: I wouldn't use the word hostage - negotiation, I wouldn't use such an emotive phrase.

MR RICHARD: However, you agree that it was a very delicate negotiation.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, quite.

MR RICHARD: That's the thrust of your evidence.  Now, I am also correct to say that there were no other significant role players in your negotiations other than your Committee and Mrs Mandela and her daughter Zinzi - I know I've completed a circle.

MR MOKOENA: I don't think we held the monopoly of intervening in that type of situation, I should imagine that a number of people are going to come to testify - church people, so I wouldn't say that - you see we didn't pose ourselves as the repository of knowledge and negotiation, we didn't say we are an institution.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  The point that I'm making is that at the Mandela house the role players from that side of the negotiation were Mrs Mandela and her daughter Zinzi Mandela, there were no others, true or false?

MR MOKOENA: I would say it's fair to assume that way.

MR RICHARD: And Mrs Mandela certainly took instructions from no-one.

MR MOKOENA: I don't know, she's an adult, she can talk for herself.

MR RICHARD: During the course of your negotiations, she didn't defer to anyone else, she didn't refer decisions to other parties, yes or no?

MR MOKOENA: I wouldn't know that part.

MR RICHARD: Now, my client's submission and evidence will be that everything that was done, was done with the full knowledge, participation, authority and on the instructions of Mrs Mandela.  Do you have any reason to dispute that statement?

MR MOKOENA: That is the opinion of your client, I'm not ...[inaudible]

MR RICHARD: I asked a very simple direct question.  Do you have any reason to doubt the veracity of that statement and not whether there are other opinions?  I'm asking ...[intervention]

MR MOKOENA: I don't know the credentials of your client and I cannot believe the credentials of a person whose credentials I don't know.

MR RICHARD: Are you suggesting that Mrs Mandela was acting on behalf of somebody else?

MR MOKOENA: I'm not suggesting that Sir.

MR RICHARD: As to the football club or the collective of individuals who styled themselves a football club, yesterday when I questioned Bishop Verryn, I put it to him: "How did people come to stay in either the Mandela house or the Methodist Mission house, who referred them to those places"?

MR MOKOENA: ...[inaudible] your sentence about what you asked the Bishop Verryn.

MR RICHARD: I'm asking you the same question.  The people who stayed in the house - whether it be the collective of individuals styled the football club or the collective of people who went to the mission house ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: May I just warn you that you are on to your last question or let me say one minute - I've actually been more than generous, it's more than five minutes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you I am indebted.

MR MOKOENA: Just continue, your question was truncated, just continue it.

MR RICHARD: There were a number of persons resident at both residences, that's the Mandela house and the Methodist mission.

MR MOKOENA: Quite.

MR RICHARD: Now, those were generally displaced and homeless people who needed sanctuary.  Now my questions is, who referred people in need of that accommodation to those various places?

MR MOKOENA: I wouldn't know, except that from the interviews that we had with the displaced youths as you are saying - some of them were fleeing the violence of the country in Natal etc., etc., and others went to the SACC and they were redirected to come to Mrs Mandela, so this is what they said.  Now, I can't say it's true or not.

MR RICHARD: Other than to record the assertion that I believe the witness is being evasive and obstructive, I have no more questions.  Thank you Chair.

MR MILLER: Chairperson, just one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MR MILLER: It's actually a repetition of a question posed by Mr Soller a bit earlier but I'm just asking the same question on behalf of my client.
 Minister, I'm Michael Miller, I represent Tulani Dlamini and I also want to put the question to you.  If Tulani Dlamini made a confession to this Commission of exactly what happened in the murder of Abu-Baker Asvat, would you be prepared to re-open the enquiry.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Chairman, I want to start off by apologising to the Asvat family because earlier on I thought that question was being asked on behalf of the Asvat family and I thought it would have been a wrong question if it was being asked on behalf of the Asvat family because of the history of interaction between my department and the Asvat family.
 But now that I'm informed that the question is being asked on behalf of Mr Tulani Dlamini, if he makes a confession to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, it's perfectly competent - that's how I understand things, to make recommendations as to what should happen once that confession has been made.  And I can tell you know that the Department of Safety and Security will consider any recommendation which the Truth and Reconciliation Commission will make, reasonably.

MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other?