Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-09

MR MADASA: Did your friends accuse each other of having done something or having been asked to do something?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: No I was only asked by them as to what has hurt me and I told them that the SDU man came in and I was injured then that was the only thing they asked me since they saw me bleeding.

MR MADASA: No, that your friends accused each other of some involvement but you did not hear because you were in pain?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes I was a bit dizzy now I could not concentrate and I could not hear.

MR MADASA: Is it possible that they said certain things which you did not hear because you were in pain?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Sorry, please repeat?

MR MADASA: That your other friends said certain things which you did not hear because you were in pain?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: I saw this boy by the name of Dumaleng, he is the one who was busy pointing at Mavuso, I don't know as to what they were arguing about because the other one said you are the one and other one say that back.

CHAIRPERSON: The counsel is asking you this question, as you were in pain having sustained injury and beginning to be dizzy according to your version and not concentrating much to what others were discussing or what was being discussed at the time, it could happen or it is possible or could it be possible that some of the boys might have said something that you missed?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: I heard when we were in the last shack when they were pointing at each other that is is Dumaleng and Mavuso and Dumaleng was pointing at Mavuso saying you are the one and Mavuso would do the same and deny and say I'm not the one.  That's the argument I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: He's not asking you about things you heard or did not hear, what he's asking is, could it be possible, since you were dizzy were there some things that were happening there in the shack that you could not see them?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: I did not see anything, we were sitting down on the floor.

MR MADASA: Did you hear what Mavuso and Dumaleng were accusing each other about?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: They were accusing each other about fetching each other at night.  The other one was saying you are the one who came at night and that is what they were arguing about or accusing each other about.

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] Dondolo, do you know him very well?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes I know him.

MR MADASA: Do you know that he was a commander?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes I do know that he was a commander of the SDU but I don't have confirmation of this.

MR MADASA: Did you hear him when he gave an order that he should be killed?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: I heard him say here's a cigarette, smoke for the last time today and he threw it on the floor where we're sitting and he left and that's what he said: 'smoke for the last time today.'  The only word I heard was from Mr Manzini saying you are following Blanko today.

MR MADASA: Was the carton sealed, the carton of cigarettes?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes it was sealed.

MR MADASA: I have no further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: I've no questions, Chairperson.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Mtwalo, do you know this practice that when something has happened a whistle would be blown?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes I know.

MR MOTATA: And if we look at Block D, is it far from Block C?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: It will be Block D and the next will be - the first one is A and B is next then C follows and there will be a tar road
and then Block D.

MR MOTATA: If a whistle were to be blown in Block C, would you hear that whistle?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: No, I did not hear a thing, I was sleeping, I only heard gunshots at night when we're sleeping.

MR MOTATA: The question is, if you hear a whistle being - if a whistle were to be blown from Block C, would you hear it in Block D, that's my question.

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: No, I did not hear it.

MR MOTATA: What I'm asking you, say Mr Mtwalo, is that when a whistle is being blown in Block C and you're residing in Block D would you hear it?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes I would hear it.

MR MOTATA: And you say on this particular night you heard nothing?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: No I did not hear a thing.

MR MOTATA: When you were taken to the shack it was at Block F, that is the first shack isn't it so?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes that's true.

MR MOTATA: Did you see a body and now we know it was Bulelwa's, did you see a body lying down and being guarded at Block F?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes, I saw it, we passed by it because the shack was not far away from where the body was lying.

MR MOTATA: Did anybody or anyone tell you whose body that was?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: No one said a thing to me with that regard.

MR MOTATA: Did you ask anybody even your co-captured people in the shack?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: What I asked them was:  'What's happening, why you're captured here because now I've been stabbed, it looks like we're sailing the same boat and what is the problem?' and they said we've been captured at about 4 a.m. we don't know why.

MR MOTATA: Now when you returned to your shack at D, did you find Amos?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Amos had fled, I understand he came back, he took his possessions or his clothes because he had a few pair of trousers at home, he took his clothes, he did not even bid anyone farewell, he just left.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Mr Armoed's children?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes I do know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you used to play with them?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes we used to play with his children.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair it's not strictly arising from the
questions from Mr Chair but just one question which I left out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MADASA: When you were released did you gain the impression that you were released because you nothing to do with the allegations that were levelled at your friends?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: I was released purely on the grounds that I had done nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Just one question Chairperson.   Weren't you saying you were released by Mr Armoed because he knows you?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Please repeat your question?

MR MAPOMA: Didn't you say you were released by Mr Armoed because Mr Armoed knows you, you are staying nearby his place?

JABULANI AMON MTWALO: Yes, released me because he knew me since his house is opposite our house.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mtwalo, you may stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chair, I feel like making a request for a short adjournment just to consult with the members of the family on a particular aspect.  Unfortunately Chairperson I couldn't get enough opportunity to ...[inaudible] with that particular one.  I don't think will be too long.

CHAIRPERSON: How much time do you need?

MR MAPOMA: I think I need about 5 - 10 minutes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How many witnesses do you still have to call?

MR MAPOMA: I intend calling only one Chairperson if I get instructions from the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Ten minutes will take us to ten to four and we intend rising at four o'clock so I doubt whether there is anything we can do in about ten minutes.

MR MAPOMA: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we are of the view that perhaps we should rise for the day if - in that time.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, I would be comfortable with that.