Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

VINCENT KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And how big was the group that was moving with you when you moved out of Boipatong?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I will say it was 150 and above.

MR BERGER: Did you enter the street, Nobel Boulevard from Leqwa Street?

VINCENT KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: How did you enter Nobel Boulevard?

VINCENT KHANYILE: The road that is adjacent to the firm, we never travel on that road.  We are just travelling aside or near the road.

MR BERGER: Are you saying you were walking on the pavement of that road?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Yesterday I said we used the last street outside of Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The last street, the most northern street in Boipatong just before Nobel Boulevard is Amatolo Street and if I understand you correctly, you would have entered Amatolo Street from Leqwa Street, correct?

VINCENT KHANYILE: If they are the ways you say it, I will say it is correct.

MR BERGER: Once again, and subject to what my learned friend's map looks like, from Leqwa Street along Amatolo and out of Boipatong, only two houses were touched.  Why is that?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Why were they not supposed to be attacked, because we went there with the aim of attacking them?
	Our aim was to attack.

MR BERGER: That is my point Mr Khanyile, they were not attacked.  Most of those houses, bar two, most of those houses were not attacked.
	You see what I am suggesting to you is that you left Boipatong along Bafokeng Street, which is one street before Amatolo Street.  On that street, almost every house was attacked.  People were injured and people were killed.

VINCENT KHANYILE: Sir, I don't understand your question.  Are you directing as to why only two others were attacked or why many houses were attacked.  I don't understand the direction of your question.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Berger, really, this man has said repeatedly he can't read a map.  The map is a bit misleading in places, certainly the copy I've got is not very clear.
	If he says the last road, it may be the last road with houses on either side, it may be the last road without houses on either side.  Does it take us any further, really?

MR BERGER: Mr Lax ...

MR LAX: We just seem to be getting bogged down in this sort of detail which doesn't add a hell of a lot of value to our process.

MR BERGER: If I can just put to you Mr Khanyile why I am asking you these questions.  I suggest to you that you are deliberately playing down your role in the massacre, that you are aware of many more people who were killed or injured and in particular you are aware and well aware at the time, that most of the people who were attacked, were the elderly, the children and the women of Boipatong.  That is what I am putting to you.

VINCENT KHANYILE: Do you want me to answer?  My answer would be like this.  As I have stated yesterday that we were about 350 to 400, therefore it is clear that I couldn't, I individually, as an individual know all the things that were, or the acts of the 400 people.
	Secondly I as I am here together with my fellow applicants, you might find that our acts are just few of the acts and most of the acts were committed by those who are not here.
	Therefore, Mr Berger, I would like you to understand me in this, that it was at night, I couldn't see the acts of 400 people and we were fighting.  I wasn't going about recording things.

MR BERGER: Let me ask you this Mr Khanyile, why were women, old people and children killed?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Sir, even if I personally, myself, didn't kill a child or an elderly woman, however, my view is I think you know or you are aware that when there is a war or fighting, it is not only the targets who get injured.  Any one who happen to be in the vicinity, might be injured.
	I think you did see wars occurring in other countries where there is a conflict within governments.  However, you have seen young children who are victimised and killed first.
	What I am trying to say with reference to the injured community of Boipatong, even if our main aim was to go and fight the comrades, the community was caught in the cross fire.  One reason to explain this is that they were also supporting the acts of the youth against us.
	If it did happen, it was to send a message to them to say that if their children do something that is wrong, they should try to talk them down, not support them.

MR BERGER: If I understand you correctly Mr Khanyile, what you are saying is that the children, the old people, the women, they were all legitimate targets, it was not a mistake that they were killed, they were deliberately killed to teach them and their sons, a lesson?  Is that right?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Those which I would like to exclude in this category is children who don't know anything.  With regards to all the adults, they knew exactly what was happening.  Even if they are here, as they are here in this Commission, they know exactly what I am describing.
	With regards to the children, I will say they got injured as I have explained that when there is a fight, even the one who is innocent, even the innocents, they do get injured.
	I will say even those who were involved in injuring children, it may be because they were so angry in such a way that they couldn't distinguish as to what they were doing.

MR BERGER: You talk about innocent people who get caught in the cross fire.  But isn't it correct Mr Khanyile, that these were innocent people who were caught in the cross fire, these were innocent people who were deliberately hacked and stabbed and shot to death.  Not a question of being caught in the cross fire, isn't that right?

VINCENT KHANYILE: I don't understand as to which people you are referring to when it was plain that they should deliberately be killed.

MR BERGER: Well, I am not going to go through the whole list, but the last time we were here, I mentioned elderly people, elderly women, pregnant women and young kids, nine months, three years, four years, seven years, who were hacked and stabbed t death.
	What I am suggesting to you is they were not caught in any cross fire, they were deliberately targeted.  My question to you is why?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I have explained that the elderly people were involved in the killings orchestrated against us  because they were supporting the killings of the IFP members and therefore we regard them as people who were involved in the killings orchestrated against us and the people whom I said were caught in a cross-fire, are young children.
	However, I want you to know this Mr Berger, this is my opinion.  I am not saying this because I did it, because I never killed a child.  I never killed an elderly person who was  female on the day.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, it is your own evidence that the killings were designed to teach the people of Boipatong a lesson.  Do you still stand by that evidence?

VINCENT KHANYILE: At that time, when we went to attack, that was my stand point, but after the attack I realised that even if it was like that, it was not necessary.

MR BERGER: Just one more question on this point.  Yes, that was your attitude at the time and if it was your attitude at the time, that the residents of Boipatong needed to be taught a lesson, then I put it to you it follows that each and every resident of Boipatong, whether old or young, healthy or not, male or female, was a target for your attack.  Do you agree?

VINCENT KHANYILE: Mr Berger, I am still relying on the last answer that I gave you.

MR BERGER: Can I take that as a yes to my question?