Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it was a small gun, but I do not know what type if was.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was it a handgun or was it a pistol or - excuse me, a firearm, a rifle, anything an AK47, an R1, anything can you give a description, or didn't you see?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said it was a small gun, I do not know what type it was.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Nosenga, it is my instructions and I will put it to you that Mr Peens was never at a meeting two weeks before the Boipatong massacre.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I say he was present.  I would not implicate Mr Peens falsely.

MR DU PLESSIS: It is also our instructions that there was no meeting between Mr Peens and Mr Keswa on the day of the Boipatong massacre.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I said I was present at that meeting of the 17th, that is during the day.

MR DU PLESSIS: As a matter of fact, no such meeting did take place on that day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that.

MR DU PLESSIS: And thirdly and lastly, Mr Peens was not involved in any way with the Boipatong massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He did play a role, he was involved in the shooting of people in Boipatong.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Is there anyone, who is the next?

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Nosenga, I am sure you are tired and you want to get out of the witness box, but I am going to ask you please to listen carefully to my questions and to concentrate on them.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

MR BERGER: Do you remember when you were at Leeukop prison, there was a Prisoners' Organisation there that looked after the interests of prisoners?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.

MR BERGER: If I give you the name of a person, Mr Efrahim Nkosi, does that ring a bell?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  No, I cannot remember very well.

MR BERGER: I am talking about the time at the beginning of 1996, approximately January 1996, you were at Leeukop at that time, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: There was this organisation, as I say, and this Mr Nkosi was a member of that organisation, a representative of that organisation in prison with you at Leeukop?  Sorry, you said something?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I hear that.

MR BERGER: And you approached Mr Nkosi for some assistance with your position, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it is possible, I cannot deny that, it is possible I went to him for help.

MR BERGER: You see, because this Mr Nkosi telephoned Mongezi, that is Mongezi Tshongweni and he told Mongezi that there was a man at Leeukop by the name of Mr Nosenga who needed assistance.  Now Mongezi was at that time, the Head of the ANC's Truth and Reconciliation Desk.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible but I do not know him.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga, let me just explain to you how it worked at the ANC very briefly, there was a TRC desk, in other words there was an office in the ANC that was set up to assist people who wanted to apply for amnesty and at that time, it was to assist ANC members who wanted to apply for amnesty.  Mongezi was the Head of that department, do you understand?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

MR BERGER: Then after Mr Nkosi had spoken to Mongezi and Mongezi said yes, he would talk to you, then you called Mongezi, do you remember that?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?  I beg your pardon?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying it is possible I called him.

ADV SIGODI: You say it is possible, but do you remember it?  Do you remember calling Mongezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying yes, it is possible, but I cannot remember when.

MR BERGER: Let me try and help you Mr Nosenga.  There was a telephone in prison that you could use, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you needed a phone card to use that, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you didn't have to have too much money on your phone card, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Correct.

MR BERGER: And so you phoned Mongezi at the ANC, asked him to assist you, but you couldn't speak very long and he said he would get back you to after he took your prison number, isn't that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Correct.

MR BERGER: And then ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you now remember that you telephoned Mr Mongezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I remember now that he is explaining me and refreshing my memory.

MR BERGER: And you asked Mongezi to come and see you at Leeukop prison because you wanted his assistance, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And indeed, Mongezi came to see you at Leeukop prison am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you told Mongezi when he saw you at Leeukop, about the fact that you had been convicted for killing people in Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you also told him when he visited you then, that you had participated in the Boipatong massacre, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You also told him that you had been forced to confess to the Sebokeng killings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And we are talking now about January 1996, in that period?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is possible.

MR BERGER: And then what you also told Mongezi was that you wanted to apply for amnesty for Sebokeng and for Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And also you will remember that you said to Mongezi that you wanted to appeal against your conviction for Sebokeng?  Do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR BERGER: But at that time, Mongezi said to you he needed to find out from the ANC if they could assist you because you were not a member of the ANC, you were a member of the IFP?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And he promised that he would come back to you with a decision.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then a little while after that, Mongezi came back to you at Leeukop prison, in other words he came to visit you again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I think he came, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Speak up so that we can hear.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I am saying it is possible he came.

MR BERGER: Well, let me try and refresh your memory if I can.  When Mongezi left you after the first visit, he was going to find out whether the ANC would be prepared to assist you in your application for amnesty for Boipatong and Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And he was going to find out whether the ANC would assist you in appealing against your conviction for Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: I am sorry Mr Nosenga, then after Mongezi left, you phoned him again to find out what was happening and whether the ANC was going to assist you, do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it is possible I called him.

MR BERGER: And he said that the ANC would assist you, he would assist you and he would come back to see you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Now, when Mongezi came back to see you, he was accompanied by a woman, a white woman, do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is possible.  I am saying yes, it is possible he was in the company of a white lady even though I cannot recall the name.

MR BERGER: Her name is Caroline Nichols, she came to see you with Mongezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is possible sir.