Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was not present, Chairperson, because I was sick then, therefore I was unable to be present.

MR VISSER: In other words, you did not hear Mr Jantjie's evidence.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You also mentioned in your amnesty application that you were not involved in the initial discussions with Betty Boom, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what you know about that is what was told to you, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well.  We have heard that the Security Branch of Ladybrand used a place where they had discussions with informers of the Ladybrand district, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I just want to highlight that in terms of my knowledge that area which was used, it was for the first time it was used in this incident.  That's my knowledge.

MR VISSER: Do you agree that this place, I think they refer to it as a farm, was used by you for approximately two months in this relevant period of time?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I think that is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you at any stage participate in any discussion to convince any of these victims to become an informer?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was not present in any of such discussions, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: We will discuss this again at a later stage.  If we can now page to page 29C.  As far as your recollection goes Mr Thulo, when did the events take place concerning these four people?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: This incident happened in 1987, in December, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Why are you so sure of this date?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: The reason why I'm able to recall this is because it was at the time when I was busy preparing my son's baptism.

MR VISSER: Was your son's name Maleke, M-a-l-e-k-e Isaac, I-s-a-a-c Thulo?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And in which church was he baptised?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: He was baptised at St Joseph's Anglican Church in Ladybrand.  I think I'm mistaken, it's not Ladybrand but Ficksburg, the Anglican Church in Ficksburg.

MR VISSER: On what date was he baptised?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, he was baptised on the 24th of December 1987.

MR VISSER: And have you checked that date yesterday to make certain that that is the date of his baptism?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson, I verified that date and I have evidence in that regard.

MR VISSER: Now why do you associate the date of the baptism with the incidents which took place surrounding these victims?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, to relate this incident and the baptism is because at that time I was at work and then I did not request a leave.  So I did not have enough time, at work I would request for some to go and prepare for this baptism.

MR VISSER: Now at the time in December 1987, were you then a member of the Security Branch of Ladybrand?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What was your rank?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was a Detective-Sergeant.

MR VISSER: Under whose command did you stand?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: My Commander at that time was Robertshaw.

MR VISSER: And under whose command did he stand?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Mr Fouche, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What was your main task?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: At that time it was to gather intelligence for the unit I was working with.

MR VISSER: Information concerning whom?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Intelligence against the liberation movements.  I would mention the ANC, PAC and BCM and other liberation movements which I'm not able to recall now.

MR VISSER: Did you have your own informers?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you handle informers together with either Mr Jagga or Mr Jantjie?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We were handling these informers together.

MR VISSER: Did you know who the informers were of those two people?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I knew some of them, Chairperson, but I did not know some of them.

MR VISSER: Very well.  You say in paragraph 8 on page 29C, that in that time there were approximately 30 ANC MK members active in Lesotho, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, that's the knowledge we had then.

MR VISSER: Did that amount remain constant, or did some people leave and others come back or what was the position?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would not commit myself that it remained in that way, it could have changed, that others would leave, others would stay.  So I would not testify that that number remained the same.

MR VISSER: If we can limit ourselves to the ANC or MK, what did they do in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Thank you, Chairperson.  In terms of my knowledge, these ANC or MK were using Lesotho as a springboard for their attacks against South Africa.

MR VISSER: And did you then work in Lesotho to gather information or intelligence?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: To find out where they were going to launch their attacks, where people will infiltrate, etcetera?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did you sometimes accompany Mr Jantjie and Jagga and work together with them in Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And did you make contact in bars, in shebeens, with members or supporters of MK?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: If we can deal with Betty Boom.  You say there that you became aware that Jantjie and Jagga recruited Betty Boom in Lesotho as an informer.  Now what I'd like you to do is to tell the Committee how you knew this.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I was informed by Jantjie that they found Betty Boom and from there they recruited her as one of their informers.

MR VISSER: What was your involvement in Betty Boom, can you tell us?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Do you mean when she was an informer in Lesotho, or when she was in South Africa?  In which period are you talking about?

MR VISSER: How did you make contact with Betty Boom, you personally?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I contacted Betty Boom when we went to fetch her in Lesotho to bring her to South Africa.

MR VISSER: Who gave the instruction to do that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is Robertshaw, he instructed me to go and take Betty Boom.

MR VISSER: And who accompanied you in this incident when you went to Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We were four, it was myself, Mr Jantjie, Mr Jagga and Mr Robertshaw.

MR VISSER: You were four people who worked in the gathering of information, you worked as a group, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Did anyone say anything to you that Betty Boom will be abducted on that day?

CHAIRPERSON: May you repeat your question, Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Did anyone tell you that Betty Boom was going to be abducted, or what was the position?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: On that day I was given instructions that I should accompany these three people to Lesotho.  There was no mention of abduction, I was just told we should go and fetch this person from Lesotho.

MR VISSER: What vehicle did you use?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We used a Volkswagen Microbus.

MR VISSER: Who drove the vehicle?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was the driver that day, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what happened when you entered Lesotho?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We entered Lesotho, we went to a particular place where I was instructed to go, the place is called Ditabaneng.  When we just entered Ditabaneng, I was instructed to stop at a particular place.  I did so.  After ten to fifteen minutes Betty Boom appeared and entered the car and then returned.

MR VISSER: Did she freely get into the car?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: If she was forced to enter the car, there could have been a confrontation, but it seems she entered at her own will.