Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

MR MAHLANGU: Was a necessary thing or an unnecessary thing? Chair, I did not get you well.

RUSSELL ALLY: I accepted what you say that there may have been a stage where you opposed independence.  What I am asking was there ever a point where you changed your political position and where you felt that independence was something which had to be pursued, something which was necessary, something which was desirable politically.  Did you ever hold that position?

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, I did not.
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RUSSELL ALLY: I want to remind you that you are speaking under oath, Mr Mahlangu.

MR MAHLANGU: That is correct, sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: Are you aware of minutes of a meeting with the then State President, P W Botha?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I am aware of everything, sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: In those minutes did you not indicate that independence was something that had to be pursued, that it was something which the people supported and that they were only one or two individuals who were opposed to independence but that other than that independence was something which was a desirable goal for this area.

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, I did.  But I was - Chair, I think I would like to remind the Chair that at that stage I was not talking in my personal capacity but in my capacity as chief minister of Kwandebele and that decision had been taken by the Legislative Assembly of Kwandebele as early as before I came into the Legislative Assembly.  So it was from that perspective that I was telling P W Botha that.

RUSSELL ALLY: Are you saying that you were telling P W Botha that you supported independence but that was not your personal position?

MR MAHLANGU: I never said to him that it was not my personal position, sir. All I am saying is that before Mr
P W Botha I was acting in my official capacity and not in my personal capacity.

RUSSELL ALLY: How do you make the distinction, Mr Mahlangu, between your personal capacity and your official capacity.  Now please that I am asking these questions not because this is a cross-examination but because you yourself have said that if we are going to understand this conflict we have to
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give honest answers and it is against that backdrop that I am asking because if you are saying that these were issues which caused conflict in this area there is a need for us to try and understand it.  So how do you distinguish then between an official position and a personal position?

MR MAHLANGU: Sir, my personal position is based on what I believe in my mind and heart and an official position is what I feel I should do because I am talking on behalf of a certain group of people or organisation whose aspirations are this or that.

RUSSELL ALLY: Let me pursue this issue further.  Is it not also the case that yourself, the late S Skosana, that you asked for people like the then commissioner of police, Chris van Niekerk, the then commissioner general Van der Merwe, to be removed from this area because they were undermining the movement towards independence?

MR MAHLANGU: No, sir.  I must a bit elaborate on that.  I think I still remember what I said.  I said that they should be removed from here immediately because whilst the people were being burnt down, their shops being burnt down, people being killed, they just looked on.  And I even went further to say that had this been the lives of the white people then they would have taken steps over a night if there was no law preventing that, they would summon parliament or call parliament together over a night and make a law to prevent what was happening here.  So in my opinion they were very useless and they were after something.  So I said they must be removed with immediate effect.

RUSSELL ALLY: Well we know that they were removed, that Van Niekerk was removed and that in August 1986 Brigadier Hertzog Lerm took over as commissioner of police.  Do you
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want to just tell us a little bit about the relationship that developed between you and Brigadier Lerm, especially after November when you became the chief minister of this area.

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I think I should tell the Commission and the audience what my relationship with him was.  As there were riots in the area, sir, I was interested in knowing the security situation in the area on a daily basis.  He had to report to my office whatever was taking place in as far as his role of trying to put the situation back to normal was concerned and of course we had regular communication with him until such time that I was convinced that this man's participation in this government is so important because since he arrived here statistics are showing that riots are being brought to an end.

RUSSELL ALLY: But statistics also show that after that time more detentions took place, more arrests of people, more house to house searches.  What was your role in that?

MR MAHLANGU: In the ...

RUSSELL ALLY: In the detentions that took place because there was an increase in detentions.  More and more people were detained after August 1986.

MR MAHLANGU: Well, sir I think I appreciated much what the police of that time were doing in the area.  I was not personally involved in the detention of people but whoever was detained then a report came to me that since we detained so and so there is no more trouble in this or that particular area, I was happy.

RUSSELL ALLY: Do you know a certain Brigadier Jan Fichter?

MR MAHLANGU: I have heard of him, Chair, but I don't know him personally.
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RUSSELL ALLY: Have you only heard of him?  Do you have any knowledge of any relationship with him?   Did you not also meet with him on a fairly regular basis to discuss the security situation in Kwandebele?

MR MAHLANGU: No, sir.  I don't know.  Maybe you might have called the name differently from what ...

RUSSELL ALLY: Well Victor I suppose would be the English name.

MR MAHLANGU: What is his first name?

RUSSELL ALLY: Jan.

MR MAHLANGU: Jan.  I did know a Jan Victor but he was not a brigadier.  In as far as I know I think he was in the NIS.  National Intelligence Service.

RUSSELL ALLY: And what was his role in the security situation in this area?

MR MAHLANGU: He was not involved.  He was never involved.  He was here before - I mean during the time of S Skosana he had an office at Seobuswa and when I came into government he was no more a chief in the area and I never saw him becoming involved in the security situation here.

RUSSELL ALLY: So then just to come back lastly to this question of independence because it is quite an important issue.  What would you say the support was for independence in this area during your period as chief minister?  I am speaking about the period from November 1986 onwards.  Was there popular support for independence in this area?

MR MAHLANGU: Chair, it was very difficult to establish that because that was after lots of burning down of shops and necklacing of people had taken place.  So to determine that would just be like trying to look for a needle in a haystack.

RUSSELL ALLY: Do you not see the issue of independence as
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central to the conflict that was taking place at that time?

MR MAHLANGU: No, sir.  I was quite aware that a certain number of people, as I have mentioned to P W Botha, and that did not necessarily mean that I did in my heart support it but I knew personally who was behind all this and why.  As I mentioned from the commencement of my statement.

RUSSELL ALLY: So are you really saying that this was a conflict that revolved around personal issues?  We are trying to understand what was the politics of it.  If you are saying that ...

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.