Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

MR SIBANYONI: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson, I forgot to ask this question.  Mr De Kock, you remember you told the Committee that when the press was about to visit Vlakplaas, all the weapons were removed to Daisy Farm and eventually to Groblersdal.  My question is what happened to the askaris which were in Vlakplaas on the day when the press came there, were they still there or were they removed and if so, where to?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson.  If I have it correctly, it was a case where the askaris rested there for seven to ten days, we would deploy them for 25 days at a stretch, after which they would have approximately 10 days of rest.  If they had been there, we would have simply told them to take the day off and go somewhere.  Vlakplaas was not a detention camp, it was not a punishment camp, they could come and go as they pleased, and upon that specific day, I do know that very few of the white members were there, they were too busy driving the trucks with which they transported the guns away to Daisy Farm.  There were approximately three to four trucks, so it wasn't that we hid the askaris away.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

EUGENE DE KOCK: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Kock, I would just like to refer you to a portion of the Volume 1 paper of the papers.  This is relating to the first incident of the supplying of arms because after that, Gen Duli was arrested and charged with being in possession of arms, is that not so and then he was released on bail and then, while he was out on bail, the coup, the failed coup attempts took place in Transkei, is that correct or don't you know?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, I cannot assist you there.  With the very first attempt for which we collected the weapons and when it was delivered by Van der Westhuizen in Bloemfontein, for transport to Queenstown, at that time, if it wasn't the very same day or the day after, Commandant Nieuwoudt and I left for Vienna in Europe where we recruited a senior ANC member for DCC.  However, I cannot give you any further details regarding that, apart from the fact that upon my return, I was informed by means of Security and press reports, that 25 men had been arrested at Queenstown and that weapons had been found.  However, I do not know whether Commandant Duli was one of the people, I didn't know him.  Even if I had seen his name, it wouldn't have meant anything to me.  I don't know whether or not he was released on bail when the failed coup attempt was made.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he was actually tried for possession of weapons and sentenced and then he applied for leave to appeal against the sentence, I think it was six years, and he was granted leave, bail pending leave, bail pending his appeal and while out on bail, this occurred.  What I want to refer you to is on page 71 of the record, this is an extract from his trial when he was charged with being in possession of arms and it says here, I will just read it, this is the extract, this is what the Prosecutor says
"PROSECUTOR:   Now after you found that you had no use for the mortar bombs, why didn't you dispose of it?
		DULI:   Well, as I say I have indicated that there was an over supply on the equipment I asked for and the intention was that after the threat had stopped, all the weapons would be returned to the owner.
		PROSECUTOR:   Being the person who sold it to you?
		DULI:   The person who supplied, yes.
		PROSECUTOR:   Well, he sold it to you, didn't he?
		DULI:   He didn't sell it to us, they were leased.
		PROSECUTOR:   For how much?
DULI:   R50 000."
	Do you know anything about that?

EUGENE DE KOCK: With the very first incident for which these weapons and ammunition were supplied to Van der Westhuizen and Nieuwoudt, and Nieuwoudt and I then left for Europe, and Van der Westhuizen delivered it, it was said to me that R350 000 had been made available to him through DCC for this operation, for the operation for which the people were caught in Queenstown.  However, I don't know whether this was true and whether R350 000 had been made available, if it was so, then I do not know about it.  I think that we can ask Van der Westhuizen and Nieuwoudt about it.  I also don't understand how it is possible to lease a weapon and then not receive it back.  I am referring to mortars, if you have launched a mortar, then you have launched it, and that is that.    I don't know about any funds.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a consumable?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, this doesn't make sense to me whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there is just another aspect, I think you have already dealt with it, but just to clear it up.  It is something that appears in Mr Nieuwoudt's application, okay we know that he has withdrawn his application, but just in relation to what you said.  If you go to page 42 of the papers, I am just trying to find it here.  Yes, page 42, this is Mr Anton Nieuwoudt's application, he says
"I was called in by Oupa Gozo and told that I was to supply him with ammunition and arms.  I refused to do so because the weapons could be traced back to the Transkei.  Oupa Gozo and I agreed to make money available to him, so that he would be able to purchase weapons.  I compiled a motivation to Oupa Gozo for the obtaining of R150 000, which he approved.  The funds were handed over to Duli before witnesses and he signed for it."
	Now you mention something about getting large amounts of money, of which you yourself, ultimately ended up with more than R100 000, in addition to the buying of fishing rigs and houses on the Gonube mouth and all that sort of thing.  What do you say about this extract here that I have just read to you now?

EUGENE DE KOCK: This R100 000 which is being discussed here, has to do with the second incident if I study this application, it is the second incident which was not successful and in which he died.  I didn't know anything about that, I didn't know whether or not he received any money and I don't know who provided the personnel funds.  As I have said the radio equipment and the packing material and the operational preparation thereof, came from my Secret Fund by means of false claims.  So in other words, this R100 000  and the funds that were involved in the third instance of weapons supply, have absolutely nothing to do with one another.  This R100 000 is unknown to me, I cannot give any evidence surrounding that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you had that meeting with Gen Duli at the hotel at the airport, did he at any stage ask whether there would be any cost involved with regard to the supply of weapons, did he make the enquiry or did he just assume that he would be given weapons free of use, or that they would be supplied free?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson, after he was introduced to me by Vuli Mbotoli, he gave his so-called shopping list to me and he asked whether or not I would be able to supply these weapons and I answered yes.  No price or money was ever discussed, the quantities were discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he ask whether there would be, did he ask whether it was going to be a donation or a sale, if there would be, I am not asking whether he discussed the actual price, but did he say look, is it going to cost us or is this going to just be supplied without any cost?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson, this entire situation from the very beginning was the supply of weapons, without any cost, with no prices, it was a question of business, there was no money involved.  He was not under that impression, and neither was I, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions arising from questions that have been put to your client, by the panel?

MR HATTINGH: No thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions arising?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?