Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairperson, the kombi's at Vlakplaas was bought from the Secret Fund, or else there were kombi's who was given to us by the Quartermaster.
	The reason why I mention the Secret Fund, was it could not be traced back to the Security Police in any way.  These vehicles were fuelled at a private garage and were repaired there, but we do not come close to a police institute and a member of the public sees this vehicle and does not identify it as a police vehicle.

MR HUGO: While we are dealing with the kombi's, it seems from the document that we have before us, that there were false number plates on these kombi's in Qala when the incident took place, and that the number plate was a Qala number plate, more specific XS2222.  Were you aware of that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.  If those number plates were given, it was given to my people by either Dan Naude or persons in Aliwal North.
	For covert purposes, we had sets of number plates, we had about eight or nine sets of number plates, and with these number plates, there were also licence discs, there were third party discs that were printed for us, and we just had to fill them in, but I never had any Transkei plates.  This would have been provided to us in Barkly East.

MR HUGO: And this forms part of the bundle, a statement by Mr Dandala where reference is made to Morse and Shosha who were members of the Transkeian Police.  Those were people who worked for you and they were under your command.
	At any stage, were they members of the Transkeian Police, this is now Braam Morse and Shosha, the woman who participated in the shooting?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, they were members of the SAP.

MR HUGO: Can you recall, we know the incident happened on the 24th of September 1985.  How long after that did your members return to Pretoria?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I cannot recall Chairperson.  The reason why I say that is because usually we deployed them for a period of two to three weeks, sometimes a bit longer, or sometimes a bit shorter, by a day or two, but in order to deal completely with the salaries, we had these people return at the end of the month.
	It would have been at the end of the month, or the second or third of the following month.  It won't be here because of the shooting incident.
	They were involved in an incident for the first or second day, but they still don't return, but they did not return because of the shooting incident, they would have just moved to another area, to Aliwal North or Queenstown.  But this was part of our programme which we used.

MR HUGO: Can you recall how many times Mr Tshabalala had to return to Umtata for the hearing after this incident?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, no.  If I tell you, I would be guessing.  I cannot recall.  I know that they came back, but I don't know how many times.

MR HUGO: Yourself, you were never present in Umtata during these hearings?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, definitely not.

MR HUGO: Can you tell the Honourable Committee, you heard that there was testimony about photo albums that was collected and that was gone through.  What was the modus operandi with regard to the use of these photo albums in the early 1980's and the late 1980's?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, there was a photo album to be used at national level.  This was compiled at Head Office and there was - before the election, there were about 6 800 photo's and the names of members of MK and APLA and there was a further 2 500 names available, but we did not have the photo's, but we were aware of the photo's.
	When I say we, I mean the Security Police, and furthermore every region, besides this national album, they had albums for people who they were looking for, I can call these people subjects.  Looking for people who were just of importance for them in their area.
	And I noted that the storage or the Branch Offices had albums for their Branches and there was a card index system that some of the departments, and there was a cross-reference to the card index that would be at C.R. Swarts and the national album would be there also, and there would be a cross-reference to the regional album, that is just applicable to that region.

MR HUGO: Would it be correct to say that when ANC members or PAC members are arrested while they attempt to come into the country, and they were detained then, and they turned, detailed life sketches of these people would be drawn up to be used later?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.  When such a member is interrogated and this member works with us, we do not compile a history for him, but every person in every camp, the Commander, have a profile that is sketched with habits, leadership characteristics, other characteristics, also of the basis, the people who could be recruited later.
	All of this is put into a central computer at Head Office and if any of these persons who were identified by the detainee, or let's say the terrorist, would be caught later in the Republic, they would just go to the central computer and we would say A, B, C was with him in Pangu Camp or this was in Grafnel in the camp.  These three people can testify against him.
	You would just then use the persons who gave information, who can give relevant information with regard to that specific person.  It was a complete system.

MR HUGO: With regard to the duties of the so-called Askaris, would it be correct to say that general duties would be the recruitment of sources, the infiltration and tracing of weapons, they would also be tasked to make contact with freedom fighters who were coming into the country?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.  One of the problems which the Security Branch experienced with the infiltration of the man on the street into an MK or APLA cell, would be that they didn't speak the language of the camp as we put it.  They wouldn't know the songs which were sung in the camp, they wouldn't have the same form of speech and they wouldn't use the same form of reference, terminology, they wouldn't know the Commanding Officers and so forth, and that is why these members were of cardinal importance.
	They could speak the language of the other MK members.

MR HUGO: Is it also correct to say that over and above the tasks which had been stipulated and discussed, that the Askaris who served under you, didn't have carte blanche to do whatever they wanted and to kill people around every corner?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.  One of the problems which I took over at Vlakplaas, was the tremendously weak discipline and high level of alcoholism.
	Sometimes one would have to bring it home quite harshly and physically, that this would unfortunately not be permitted.  Very swiftly classes were presented, some of my members were studying through UNISA, they would compile lectures on the use of weapons and other such subjects.
	Not one of these Askaris was known, or at least familiar with the departmental procedure for handling weapons.  They were not familiar with the Police Law and Regulations, and we began to present lectures.  Sometimes for a week at a time, they would attend lectures every day.

MR HUGO: However, it is also true that these Askaris were used in unlawful actions during which people were killed, however these took place in a structured fashion and formed part of a premeditated plan which was part of a premeditated operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.  It was not a question of carte blanche.

MR HUGO: Mr Tshabalala also testified that he received remuneration after this operation, to the amount of R500-00.  Can you recall this remuneration?