Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I cannot be that specific that I wanted to avenge what was done by Bhekinsele Khumalo to me, but I disliked them because they were trying, they were also trying to kill us.
	That was an order that was issued by our Commander that as the people who were coming from Radebe to assist the Radebe Section, we had to hit back to these people and trying to prevent them from doing whatever they were trying to do.

CHAIRPERSON: You will have to be specific, why did you shoot back?  That was the question.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I wanted to shoot at them, because they were trying to attack us.

CHAIRPERSON: So to say you were defending yourself?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, actually we were defending ourselves, because if they were not aware of the fact that we had firearms, perhaps some of them would follow us.

ADV GCABASHE: Now that initial shooting took place before you got to Macatizwe school, didn't it?  That first shooting?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: You mean the initial shooting?  It was, it took place not far from Macatizwe school.

ADV GCABASHE: Now let's get to the second shooting, this is the shooting now of what turned out to be a teacher.  You have made this U-turn and the note I had written here was as follows:  when we went into the school yard, we saw two persons who were just walking by.  You asked them to stop and they didn't stop, so you shot them and the note I have here, is I shot for the second time.
	Explain that to me.  How did you come to shoot this particular teacher at that point?   You asked them to stop, they refused to stop.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I was shooting them from a distance, I wanted them to stop, I was not closer to them.

ADV GCABASHE: Why did you want them to stop?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I wanted to catch them.

ADV GCABASHE: What made you think that these two persons were associated with the group that had been wearing those red bands?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: It is because the people appeared from a place where these other people disappeared into, where this other group of people went into, so they came out of that place also.
	I was also aware of the fact that in that school yard, no one else was supposed to be there, because the schools were closed, so I thought those were the same people.

ADV GCABASHE: So these two people who were walking by, actually came out of Macatizwe school and walked towards you, is this what you are saying?  Just help me.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: They were not coming to our direction, they were just walking.  I think they were just walking, but we would later meet on that same route.

ADV GCABASHE: To come back to the reason for asking them to stop and the reason for shooting at them, you say you wanted to capture them.  What for?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I was going to take them to our Commander.

ADV GCABASHE: You see my difficulty is on what you are saying, these same people are the ones you had run away from earlier, is that not right?  This is what you thought anyway?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: It was a large group of people when I ran away from them, but when I saw only two of them, I was not afraid of them because I knew that they had no firearms.
	I realised that they did not shoot.  If there was an exchange of fire, I wouldn't go back there, but I became aware of the fact that they were unarmed.

ADV GCABASHE: That was going to be my next question.  Just to help me understand this, you knew they were unarmed, the bigger group, but you could see these two and they didn't wear red bandannas or anything of the sort, they weren't carrying knopkieries, they weren't carrying assegais.  Why did you associate these two with the grouping that had run into the school, running away from your firearm?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Out of all of these people, from the very first group, it is not all of them who had, only a few of them had red head bands and even this twosome, I did not know that they were teachers.  They were not dressed formally.  That is why I assumed that these people were from the same group of people that I was chasing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they have red bands, those two teachers?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I did not notice that.

CHAIRPERSON: Then what made you think they were part of that group?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: It is not always the case that you identify vigilante with a red head band.  It was only that they appeared from that school where the other people ran into and there were no other people in the school.

ADV GCABASHE: Again just for clarity, this incident happened at night?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: No, it was in the afternoon.

ADV GCABASHE: Give us just a rough time of the afternoon.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Between two and three o'clock.

ADV GCABASHE: So you could see this people clearly and they could see you clearly?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Which people?

ADV GCABASHE: These two teachers?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: As I have already explained that I shot at these people at a distance, they did not meet.  Maybe I would be able to see the difference if I had a closer look.

ADV GCABASHE: Had it been the principal of the school walking out with one of his teachers, walking out of the school premises, you would again have shot at them?  I am just using an example.
	You would have shot at him?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: You can, teachers, they dress formally all the time, but the way those teachers were dressed on that particular day, you wouldn't be able to tell whether they were teachers or not, but when I heard after that, I later heard that they had a party at the school.

ADV GCABASHE: Did your friend do anything at all apart from just watch you shoot at both the first group and then these two teachers?  What did he do?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: He had nothing to do, except to tell me that those were the people or not, because I was the only one who was armed with a pistol.  He had nothing to do.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, when would your friend tell you whether they are the people or not?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: As I have already explained that he was next to me all the time.  He would just tell me any time.  This happened unexpectedly and we didn't know that we were going to meet with such people.
	It is not possible that you will always act straight whenever things like this happen, but we were very angry at the time, because they appeared at a time when we knew very well that we were fighting these people and there was no peace between us and this group of people, because we knew that they were  going to kill us.

MR SIBANYONI: Did your friend say anything before you shot at them?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: We did not communicate properly because I just said here are these people, and we argued.  Some were there, we decided to shoot and we told ourselves that if they run away, we will be able to say those were the people who were enemies.
	The people who knew nothing, the people who were innocent, wouldn't run away.

MR SIBANYONI: At what stage did you discover or realise that they were not the people, or part of the vigilante group?  When did you discover that?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question sir?

MR SIBANYONI: When did you realise that those were teachers, but not part of the vigilante group?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I realised when I was in the class, as I was talking to them and they were asking me what was happening.  That is when I took my firearm back, because I could see the people in that classroom had nothing to do with the group of people that we were pursuing, that is when I realised that those were the wrong people.
	If those were the people that we were looking for, I wouldn't take my firearm back.