Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-18

MARY BURTON: Now you were in the vehicle which is marked on our map at position M, you probably had a chance to look at that sketch plan do you have one in front of you as well - fine.  And that is the vehicle in which Captain Kleyn and Mr Coetzee who were also with you and Sergeant Coetzee he then was, was driving.

MNR BOTHA: Dis reg ja.

MARY BURTON: And you were sitting in the back of the car.

UNKNOWN: At the back yes.

MARY BURTON: Now in your statement you say that after you had moved backwards and forwards up and down the road and so on and seen the group of people approaching you - Captain Kleyn stepped out of the vehicle is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

MARY BURTON: But he didn't address the people at all?

UNKNOWN: Nee Edele.

MARY BURTON: And then can you taken us again just through the incident as it happened - there was a grenade.

UNKNOWN: Hy het die deur oopgemaak - ek glo hy het - sy pistool in sy hand gewees, ek glo hy wou hulle gekonfronteer het.  Op daardie oomblik het iemand - een van die drie of vier - iets na die kar gegooi, ek kon hoor hy val erens teen die kar of in die kar.
 En Kaptein Kleyn duik weg, van die voertuig af, plat geval.  Op daai stadium het Coetzee die kar vinnig vorentoe getrek.  Ek glo ek het gese vir hom die ding is onder die kar of dalk in die kar - gee pad vorentoe en hy het toe so 'n kar-lengte of ietsie vorentoe getrek.

MARY BURTON: And in fact whatever it was - had fallen to the side of the vehicle in that piece of sand.

UNKNOWN: Dit - dis reg Edele.

MARY BURTON: Do you - do you have experience of hand grenade explosions would you say that, that was a hand grenade.

UNKNOWN: Die ontploffing was geweldig - dit was die eerste handgranaat wat ek van naby hoor.

MARY BURTON: And you mention in your statement that there was apparently some damage to the car.

UNKNOWN: Waar die handgranaat die deur getref het ja.

MARY BURTON: And then presumably bounced backed.

UNKNOWN: Dit was voor die ontploffing - dit was die gooi van.

MARY BURTON: But apparently no damage from the explosion.

UNKNOWN: Nee.

MARY BURTON: Then the sequence of  events after that you then also got out of the car.

UNKNOWN: Ja  ek het uitgespring.

MARY BURTON: And the person at whom you fired - could you point out or describe on the sketch plan where - where that person is or was.

UNKNOWN: So - soos die plan hier aangedui het, is hy nie soos hy gestaan het na die ontploffing nie - ek glo die plan was so opgetrek net om aan te dui waar die granaat geval het nadat hy die voertuig - teen die voertuig gebots het.  Die voertuig was veel vorentoe.
 Die persoon na wie ek geskiet het, het hier rond gele - hier - tussen die handgranaat ontploffing hy het hier afgekom - die motor het hier rond gestaan, Kaptein Kleyn het daar gele en ek was skuins agter die kar.

MARY BURTON: All right, but now on that map where it's marked N, that is the point of the explosion of the grenade.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

MARY BURTON: And the person at whom you fired would that have been further to your right on the map.

UNKNOWN: Ja.

MARY BURTON: Right, thank you.  And you - that is the person at whom you fired the five shots.

UNKNOWN: Four of five yes.

MARY BURTON: Four or five shots - and who subsequently was found to be dead.

UNKNOWN: Herhaal net asseblief.

MARY BURTON: Did you see the body later?

UNKNOWN: Nee - nee ek het hom nie gesien nie.

MARY BURTON: There were - there were then also other people who were running towards the bushes according to your statement.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg Edelagbare.

MARY BURTON: One of whom was firing at you.

UNKNOWN: Die een het na my geskiet - ek het sy vuur geantwoord, hy het omgedraai, sy regterhand op sy linkerskouer gesit en aangehou skiet.  Ek het nog vinnig 'n paar skote geskiet en op daai stadium platgeval.
Toe gaan daar 'n groot geskietery af.

MARY BURTON: So all together in - in the shots that you fired, they were at two different persons.  The one whom you saw first and then the one who was running into the bushes.

UNKNOWN: Nee - nee ek het na die een geskiet wie op my geskiet het - [onduidelik]

MARY BURTON: I see - only.

UNKNOWN: Net op hom.

MARY BURTON: All right, and about how far from that person would you say you were?

UNKNOWN: Die eerste skote ongeveer ses meter - daarna ongeveer seker tot tien meter.  Toe het ek gestaak, want toe gaan daar - dit was toe onmoontlik vir my om hom in te haal om hom te arresteer as gevolg van die ander skietery daar.

MARY BURTON: I have been handed some photographs of the vehicle and of the place where the grenade exploded, I wonder if I could ask that they be shown to you just to confirm - oh! you have copies okay.
 Which is that of the vehicle.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

MARY BURTON: With the vehicle then is on the left of the photograph with an arrow marked M indicating the damage.

ADV VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman this is an unmarked photograph we have here.

MARY BURTON: Oh! I see then we better look at this one - and then point N is the place where the grenade or whatever it was exploded.

UNKNOWN: Nee hy was by - by N.

MARY BURTON: N.

UNKNOWN: Not M - N.

MARY BURTON: N.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MARY BURTON: No M is just where it bounced against the car and made some - caused some damage apparently.

UNKNOWN: Nee M was of liewer die - waar hy die kar gevang het was op die deur.  Hierdie wys nie so aan nie.

MARY BURTON: Okay, thank you.   At no stage there was - was there any speaking or shouting to the people asking them to surrender - calling on them to give themselves up - anything like that?

UNKNOWN: Nee.

MARY BURTON: Just to check also when you were in the vehicle and you drove past there were five people walking in the road is that correct - as you said.

UNKNOWN: Toe ons hulle die eerste keer gesien het, was hulle vyf.

MARY BURTON: The first time.  And then you went back to NY1 and turned around and came back again.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

MARY BURTON: I have no further questions at the moment thank you Chairperson.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Ms Burton end of Tape 7, Side A ...  advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.  
 Mnr Bothma kan u net vir ons 'n meer duidelike  uiteensetting gee van hoe die groepie persone beweeg het.  Begin waar u hulle vir die eerste keer gesien het.

UNKNOWN: Hulle het gestap met hulle hande in hulle sakke in die rigting van NY1 se kruising en NY111.

ADV POTGIETER: So hulle was in NY111.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

ADV POTGIETER: En hulle loop in die rigting van die kruising van NY111 en NY1.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg ja.

ADV POTGIETER: In watter rigting is dit - watter windrigting is dit?

UNKNOWN: Ek dink dis wes.

ADV POTGIETER: Kyk  op die plan daarso dan gee u vir ons 'n aanduiding, is dit soos 'n mens na die plan kyk van links na regs of van regs na links.

UNKNOWN: As ons die plan voor ons het dan is aan my regterkant is waar die bosse was, wat ons verbygeloop het.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja nee maar wag kom ons - ons sal nou by die bosse kom, kom ons praat nou eers van hoe die mense gestap het in NY111.

UNKNOWN: Reg.

ADV POTGIETER: Soos 'n mens na die plan kyk het hulle gestap van regs na links of van links na regs.

UNKNOWN: Van regs na links.

ADV POTGIETER: Van regs na links - goed.  So met ander woorde hulle was aan die oostelike kant van die interseksie tussen 111 en NY1.  Met ander woorde aan die regterkant soos ons kyk.

UNKNOWN: Ja dis reg.

ADV POTGIETER: Regterkant soos ons kyk na die plan.

UNKNOWN: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Is dit korrek?

UNKNOWN: Dis reg.

ADV POTGIETER: Goed, en waar is u voertuig toe?

UNKNOWN: Ons voertuig beweeg in die pad af by hulle verby.

ADV POTGIETER: In die teenoorgestelde rigting?

UNKNOWN: Nee dieselfde rigting.

ADV POTGIETER: Dieselfde rigting.

UNKNOWN: Dieselfde rigting.

ADV POTGIETER: Aan watter kant van NY111 stap die groepie persone?

UNKNOWN: Aan die verste kant.

ADV POTGIETER: Ekskuus?

UNKNOWN: Aan die verste kant.