Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-20

MS THABETHE: Right.  Now if you released him, that is if you released Mr Ndaba, didn't you think maybe of the explanation that you would release him together with the other people that were going to be released anyway, after the instructions that you can't prosecute?

H J P BOTHA: But I could not just release Mr Ndaba without releasing Mr Shabalala.

MS THABETHE: Why not?

H J P BOTHA: As I've already explained, there were several factors which I had to consider.

MS THABETHE: I don't understand.  Maybe I should ask this question again.  When Mr Ndaba and Mr Shabalala were arrested, it's your team that knew that they were arrested together, isn't it?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

MS THABETHE: You wouldn't say any person from the ANC knew of this fact?

H J P BOTHA: Correct.

MS THABETHE: Now, if you released Mr Ndaba and not Mr Shabalala, how would anyone have suspected that they were probably arrested together and that probably Mr Ndaba was an informer?

H J P BOTHA: It was not about whether Mr Shabalala and Mr Ndaba had been arrested together.  They met for a specific day.  The fact that Charles was arrested by askaris that Saturday morning had already caused an unfortunate arrest.  The whole process, if one has regard to what happened afterwards, was never an intention as to how it should materialise.

MS THABETHE: I'm not sure whether you understand my question.  My question is, I understand maybe that Mr Shabalala could have been kept, because he already knew that Mr Ndaba was an informer and for that result, as a result of that he couldn't be released, but I'm asking about Mr Ndaba.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that's correct and I will explain again.  If I had kept Mr Shabalala...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: I just want to finish the question.  My uncertainty comes with Mr Ndaba, that Mr Shabalala was the only person who knew about Mr Ndaba, right?

H J P BOTHA: Correct.

MS THABETHE: And in a way maybe that would have justified what eventually happened to him, that is you were protecting Mr Ndaba, isn't that so?

H J P BOTHA: That was part thereof, that's correct.

MS THABETHE: My question is, to me it doesn't make sense why you didn't release Mr Ndaba.

H J P BOTHA: Because I will say again, Mr Ndaba acted irrationally in his thoughts.  With all the proposals that were made to relocate him safely elsewhere, he was prepared to take his chances with the ANC.  I could not afford him going back to the ANC and saying that we had an appointment with Shabalala because ...

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the answer.

MR LAX: Please repeat your answer.  The translators are asking you to repeat your answer.

H J P BOTHA: I will repeat the answer.  If we had released Ndaba and he returned to the ANC and conveyed the information to them that Shabalala was arrested because of him and we eliminated Shabalala, then the focus would be placed on us.  That was part of the consideration.

MS THABETHE: Just on that point, how probable was that?  He had been working for you as an informer.  How could he blow his cover that he had led to Mr Shabalala being arrested and you had arrested him and eventually  eliminated him.  How could he do that?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, he had already said, after we discussed the options, he said he was prepared to take his chances with the ANC.  He was prepared to disclose his role with regard to the Security Police to them.

MR LAX: May I just interpose Chair?  Did you discuss with him the possibility of eliminating Shabalala and himself going back into the structures?

H J P BOTHA: No.

MR LAX: Why not?  That would have been the obvious solution to your problem as Ms Thabethe has put to you.

H J P BOTHA: I did not discuss it with any of my informers to the elimination of another person, just indeed for his protection.

MR LAX: Well, we're not talking about any ordinary informer.  We're talking about a senior informer in the Natal machinery.  Just let me finish my question before you jump to conclusions.  We're talking about a senior person who's given you information in the past.  That must have resulted in things happening that he would have been aware of as a consequence of him giving you information.  You're not talking about some foot soldier here.  We're talking about the chap who was Acting Commander of the Natal machinery according to you and who then comes back into the country ...(indistinct) covert operation and then exposes this covert operation to you.  So he must have understood all of those consequences.  There was no doubt in his mind, there could have been very little doubt in his mind that Shabalala was likely for the high jump in the light of what was happening.

H J P BOTHA: Such an idea may have arisen with him, but it was not discussed.

MR LAX: It wouldn't have been that absurd to discuss that as a possibility with him as one way of getting him back safely into the structures so that he could continue being your informer, which is of course what you both had in mind.

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.  Now the proposal does not sound so absurd, but at that stage it was never a consideration of mine.  It was not part of my modus operandi with informers to discuss it with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Another issue I want to iron out with you or to get clarity on from you.  You say after you realised that Ndaba was in a state of uncertainty about himself you went to Mr Steyn to inform him about this.  Why did you do that?

H J P BOTHA: You refer to Saturday the 14th meeting at the office?

MS THABETHE: Yes, it's paragraph 51 of your application on page 10.

H J P BOTHA: Yes, the circumstances with regard to Charles and I kept him up to date continually, I mean we were both in Pretoria and I informed him what the circumstances were at all times and it was logical for me to inform him about that.

MS THABETHE: No, what I'm getting in to, or where I'm getting at is the fact that you say he said to you that it's up to you what you do with the situation, so I'm trying to find out whether what you did, you did it as a result of the instructions or of the broad instruction that you were given to by Steyn or you did it out of your own volition.

H J P BOTHA: A final decision.  What I discussed with Gen Steyn with regard to Ndaba was that I must try my best to get his heard right and yes, the General left it to me, I was his handler, but I think with both of us the idea was formulated already that we would get rid of Shabalala.

MS THABETHE: Maybe I didn't ask the question properly.  My question is twofold. One, I would like to find out when you went to Steyn, what was the reason?  What was the purpose of going to Steyn?  Was it merely to report to him that this has happened and this is what you've decided to do or you went to him because you were seeking some form of direction or instruction from him, because if you read your paragraph, I'm not good in reading Afrikaans, but the last sentence you say "Gen Steyn het" ...whatever ...whatever, but it gives an impression that Steyn responded to what you told him.  He told you that look, you must try to calm Mr Ndaba and see what to do about the matter.  Is that a good paraphrasing of what you say there?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, yes.

MS THABETHE: So what I'm saying is it looks like you went there, you told him and he responded by saying try and calm Ndaba down and try and see what to do about the situation, so my question is, did you go there to seek him to direct you as to what to do about the situation, or you went there just to tell him, merely to inform him about what had happened?

H J P BOTHA: It was more a meeting to keep him informed about the position.  Yes, and if he could advise me, I would listen, that is why Commanders are there, to give advice.