Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: When I went to the shop, Mrs Clackers was sitting down on a chair and there were three people that were inside the shop.  We then spoke to those people and we asked them why were they buying things in that shop even though there was this boycott.  While we were still talking to these people, Jimmy came in the shop and he spoke to Mrs Clackers and asked why was she operating in the shop knowing that there was a boycott in all other shops.

MR CLARKE: My instructions are that she, that one of you first went in there to look for a Makweta blanket, do you recall that?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: No, I don't recall that, maybe it's one of the people that were already inside the shop, that were looking for a Makweta blanket.

MR CLARKE: She had just opened at 2 o'clock when the first of you came in there, not so?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: When I went inside the shop the shop was already opened.

MR CLARKE: Just opened.  Jimmy or one of you then, having - sorry, can I just restart this question please, Mr Chairman.  The first of you asked to look at the Makweta blanket, thereafter Jimmy made his entrance, climbed on the counter and demanded a coka cola, did you see that?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: No, I didn't see that, he just spoke to Mrs Clackers, saying that she must close the shop because there was this boycott.

MR CLARKE: What you did see was Jimmy's assault on Mrs Clackers.  Now if I can get back to the question, that happened at the till, not so?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: No, it happened - there was a small passage next to the counter, it happened there.  That's where it happened.

MR CLARKE: Behind the till.  And then she tried to escape, she tried to, she withdrew along, behind the counter in the direction of the door, not so?  You mentioned that she moved towards the door just now.

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, this scuffle happened next to the door.

MR CLARKE: And it was during this time that she was so grievously assaulted.  You saw that, didn't you?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: I didn't see when she was assaulted, she just fell down.  He grabbed her and then she fell down.

MR CLARKE: She didn't fall down according to her, she withdrew, she tried to get away, she moved towards the door and this assault on her continued.  You saw her moving towards the door, didn't you?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, during this scuffle they went towards the door.

MR CLARKE: Now if the explanation offered is that she was trying to get at her firearm under her counter at the time, was there any need for this assault on her to continue?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: As there was not enough time there, we ran away.  There was no chance, we didn't have a chance to hit or to assault her.  But there was no need for her to be assaulted because we went there to close down the shop.

MR CLARKE: Thank you, there was no need.  That is precisely what we are trying to clear up, that what happened was a very, very grievous assault and the course of what you're telling us, particularly the fact that she was moving away from where your brother said he believed there was a gun seems to pull the bottom out of his explanation, that it was necessary to overpower here, not so? - because she was moving away from where he thought the gun was.

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: I would like to explain this.  When she was reaching for something under the counter, Jimmy went to her side, the other side of the counter and there was this scuffle between the two of them and they went towards the door.  I was standing at the door at the time.

MR CLARKE: Watching this?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: This happened whilst I was still inside the shop.

MR CLARKE: And so she moved away from where this gun was believed to be stored, why was it necessary to keep assaulting her?  Can I ...(intervention)

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: When we went there, when we were there, when she was reaching for something under the counter, we thought that there was a weapon there and he was talking to her saying that she must give us that  weapon.

MR CLARKE: I put it to you that she moved away from where the weapon was allegedly placed, but in fact the scuffle moved away from that spot under the till towards the door and then she was forcibly dragged back to the till and it was at that stage that she pulled the till off the counter.  Did you see that?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: No, I did not see that.

MR CLARKE: Did you stop observing at the stage when she had been moved towards the door, she had withdrawn towards the door?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: What happened is, after the scuffle, Mzuyanda then hit the dogs and then he saw the person who was coming towards the shop and he came back to the shop and he told us that there was a person who was coming towards the shop and that person went back to the house, maybe that person would come with the weapon so we must run away, we then ran away.

MR CLARKE: Not before she had been taken back to the till and not before, to try and open the till she had pulled it off the counter.  Whether it was to try and open it or not is unclear, but not before she had pulled it off the counter, not so?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: I don't remember that.

MR CLARKE: You don't remember that.  I'm suggesting to you, Mr Nokawusana, that what happened in there is only consistent with common robbery by three able-bodied young men on a woman and that there's nothing political about that.

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: What I know is we went there to close down the shop because there was this consumer boycott that lasted for six months.

MR CLARKE: Did I understand you in Xhosa to say you don't remember (andikhambula)?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: What I'm trying to say is I don't remember that happening.

MR CLARKE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Clarke.  Ms Patel, any questions?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Nokawusana, when you went to Mr Cobus' farm, you went there with the intention to rob and not to kill, not so or am I wrong?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: That is not so.

MS PATEL: Okay, would you like to set me straight then, what was the intention of going to Mr Cobus's farm?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I can tell you.

MS PATEL: Okay.

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Our executive members, our leaders gave us the message that we should attack the farmers, we should intimidate them and take the weapons from them and we should tell them to leave their places.

MS PATEL: Okay.  So this conviction of housebreaking with the intention to rob, that's incorrect, you're denying that?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I deny that because those were not our intentions.

MS PATEL: And the attempted murder charge of Mr Cobus, do you deny that you or any members of your group, by doing what you had done to both him and the attack on his house, that that was part of an attempt to murder him?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct, it was not an attempt to murder him.

MS PATEL: Alright.  Can I ask you this, did you foresee the possibility that by one of the members of your group shooting at Mr Cobus and others trying to get at him through trying to break the burglar bars or burglar gates by throwing in a gas cylinder that was alight, that through all of those actions you didn't foresee the possibility that Mr Cobus - or through that action, sorry, you didn't intend to bring about Mr Cobus' death or foresee the possibility that that action might lead to his death?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: Our intentions when we used the gas cylinders in that window, we wanted him to get out of the room because he locked himself inside the room.  We went there to tell him to give us the weapons and to leave that place, we did not go there to kill him.

MS PATEL: Can you recall who told him to get out of the place, that all you wanted was for him to get out of the place and give the weapons?

MELVILLE NOKAWUSANA: We didn't get the opportunity to meet him or to go inside because Mr Cobus was shooting at us.