Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.   Today we will be commencing with the hearing relating to the attempted coup in Transkei, the applications of Messrs De Kock, Nortje, Ras, Snyman, Vermeulen, Nieuwoudt and Gumengu, but before we start, I would like to just introduce the panel.  On my right is Mr Ntsiki Sandi, he is a member of the Amnesty Committee, he is an Advocate from East London.  On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni, he is also a member of the Amnesty Committee, he is an Attorney from Pretoria and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court.  I would like at this stage for the legal representatives to place their names on record.

MR CORNELIUS: Judge, I am Wim Cornelius, Cornelius Attorneys, Pretoria, I act on behalf of the applicant L. Snyman and applicant N. Vermeulen.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cornelius.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, I am Albert Lamey from the firm Rooth & Wessels in Pretoria, and I represent the applicant Willie Nortje.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lamey.

MR HATTINGH: (Microphone not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hattingh.

MR MALAN: Mr Chairman, my name is Kobus Malan, I am from the firm Kobus Malan Attorneys at Northern, I act on behalf of Mr J.A. Nieuwoudt and Mr Phumulelo Gumengu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malan.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I am Adv Rudolph Jansen from Pretoria Bar, on instructions Mr Julian Knight Attorneys.  I act for applicant Ras.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Jansen.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma, an Attorney, I am the leader of evidence, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma, before we start, I would just like to mention that these proceedings are simultaneously translated.  They will be translated into Afrikaans, English and Xhosa.  To benefit from the translation, you have to be in possession of one of these devices, they are available from the Sound Technicians in front, if you wish to have one.  Channel 1 is Afrikaans, Channel 2, English and Channel 3, Xhosa.
	Mr Malan, do you have anything to say?

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My client is Afrikaans speaking, and therefore I have prepared a piece in Afrikaans and I have not told you beforehand.  As it pleases you Chairperson.  I have a short statement in co-operation with Senior Advocate Bartlesman, that I want to read to the Committee with regard to the withdrawal of amnesty application of Jan Anton Nieuwoudt for this matter as well as for the matter next week, with regards to the death of Charles Sebe and Mr Arnold Guzana.  I would like to read the following to you
"With reference to this second application, we would like to confirm that the past few days, we have consulted with our client, and he has considered his position.  After deliberation with the Advocate and had regard for the applicable documents, we came to the conclusion that our client is not guilty of any misconduct and was not guilty of gross human rights' abuse and the application would be futile, because the subject thereof is not applicable to amnesty and we would be guilty of wasting your time and the State's funds if we should continue with the application, and therefore the application is withdrawn.  We apologise that this decision was finalised over the weekend, but we had to prepare ourselves properly and we will attend the meetings."
	Mr Chairman, I don't have a mandate to furnish you with the same regarding Mr Clive Brink, but I have indicated to Mr Mapoma, that I will get in contact with his Attorney before the end of the day to enable you to make a decision on that as well.  I would like to place on record that Mr Gumengu's pieces has been incorrectly filed at these hearings, and we have discussed it with Mr Mapoma to postpone it to a later date.  I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malan.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, so far as the applicant Phumulelo Gumengu is concerned, I confirm that we have discussed with Mr Malan and we have reached an agreement that matter be removed from the role at this sitting, it will be set down together with other co-applicants that Mr Gumengu has in some future date, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I understand Mr Mapoma that there will be a further hearing, some time in the future, also dealing with the attempted coup, but a different aspect of it and will Mr Gumengu's application be heard at that time?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In the circumstances then, we will postpone the application of applicant 7, that is Phumulelo Gumengu, to a date to be arranged and his application will be heard at a later hearing.   Mr Malan, we also note on record that your client, Mr Nieuwoudt has withdrawn his application in respect of this week's hearing and also in respect of the matter that has been set down for next week.  Thank you.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Has it been decided Mr Mapoma, who is going to start?  Is it going to be in the order as it appears in the papers or any different order?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, the applicants are going to appear as in the order in the papers.  The first applicant will be Mr De Kock to testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hattingh?

EUGENE DE KOCK: (sworn states)

MR HATTINGH: Chairperson, the applicant would give his evidence in Afrikaans.  Mr De Kock, you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You have applied for amnesty with regard to this incident, but you have also handed in an application with regard to a number of other incidents of which some have been heard and some have to be heard, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: In support of those applications, there is a general section which was drawn up with regard to your background as a Police Officer and the political motivation for your action during all these incidents, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: That part forms part of the first Bundle for your amnesty application?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: We have omitted to attach this part to the application, we have made copies of this Section and I believe it is before you already.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Hattingh, we have been given a copy of this, which Bundle we will mark Exhibit A.

MR HATTINGH: Mr De Kock, a copy has been placed before you, the introductional part, I am not going to ask you to read it in detail because you have perused it at a previous occasion, and in my consultations with you, have you read it?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Do you confirm the contents thereof?

EUGENE DE KOCK: I do Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: I am going to briefly ask you to deal with your background in the Police Force.  You were in the uniform branch of the Security Police?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And then you were transferred to the Security Police?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Where you later for many years were in the service of the well-known Koevoet Unit and you were the Commander of a specific Unit in Koevoet?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And for many years you were embroiled in an armed struggle against Swapo?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And thereafter you were transferred to Vlakplaas in Pretoria, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Can you briefly tell us, Vlakplaas was a Unit of the Security Police, is that correct?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: What type of Unit was it, was it a Unit within the Security Branch that collected information or was it an operational Unit?