Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'll leave that one at that particular state Mr Mpongosi I'm going to.  You said that at a particular stage you took your firearm and went to Magwaza's house.  Is that correct?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: This was after the incident on the sports filed where Mr Dastile was fired at by your companion and after that you took your gun and went to Mr Magwaza's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's so, you can carry on.  You don't have to wait.

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Why did you think Mr Mpongosi, that there was going to be any trouble because you had already chased away the Dastiles, Mr Dastile and his group, sorry not the Dastiles.

MR MPONGOSI: I had said that I saw those people with spears in their possession, and the assortment of weapons.  When I took the firearm it was a result of this.  I also could tell that they were not necessarily running away absolutely from us, they would come back, one time around after this.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I want to put it to you that there was no reason for you to take your firearm at that stage and go to Magwaza's place.

MR MPONGOSI: I will relax and sit back and not go and get my firearm as well, after having seen the way they were armed, the ANC group that is.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Did you, sorry, my apologies sir, did you tell Mr Sithole about the incident with Mr Majola at the Madadani shop at any stage.

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He said so in his evidence-in-chief.  That is why, in fact, he went to Mr Sithole, specifically because of that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Sithole had not indicated any of that incident to us when he gave his evidence.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chair if I may.  I believe it was indicated.  I refer specifically to the bundle at page 29.  I do not recollect if he specifically named Mr Mpongosi's name, but you'll notice at paragraph 5.3 he says that
"...I heard a noise outside and people shouting each other.  Mr Zwane arrived with approximately four to five IFP members.  They knocked at my door and asked what was happening.  The men informed me that ANC members were attacking them."
Now it is my presumption that that is in reference to the incident Mr Mpongosi's talking about today.

CHAIRPERSON: That's my recollection as well.  I'll just check my notes.  Yes my, don't know if this is the right place, they said they were being attacked by ANC.  I told them to go to my brother's shack.

MR LAX: No that was in the night.

CHAIRPERSON: That was the night before, sorry.  Oh yes then he says at 3 a.m. I heard toyi toying.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Further down I think ...(inaudible) Mr Claassen brings to our attention.

CHAIRPERSON: I've got here at one p.m.
...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Zwane and M with a question mark.  I think it was probably Mpongosi came and said ANC were attacking.  ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes so.
...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Not the first time.

AZHAR CACHALIA: There's a note that I just wish to discuss the matter with if you just will indulge me for a moment.  Thank you sir.
	Mr Mpongosi there was a problem between yourself and some people at the Maloesi shebeen earlier.  Do you know about, do you have any recollection about that?

MR MPONGOSI: I don't know which time you are referring to now, or what you are referring to.

AZHAR CACHALIA: The evidence that is going to be led is that you had gone to the shebeen of Mr Moloesi and that they refused to serve you there because of your because of whatever problems they had, and as a result of that there was conflict there and the parties arrived the two parties the ANC and the  IFP arrived and attempted to sort out that problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when was that approximately in relation to the date of the incident?

AZHAR CACHALIA: It was on Saturday Chairperson, before the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: The 12th, the same day of the incident, that very same day, the Saturday?  Mr Mpongosi there's going to be evidence we're told that there was a dispute involving yourself at Moloesi's shebeen, which had to be settled between the leaders of the ANC and the IFP, the local leaders.

MR MPONGOSI: There is some difficult here the way they explained or said it in Court.  What I know with regard to Moloesi and the problem thereof, was that I went to Moloesi and said to him, "...how come, Mr Moloesi you say this shebeen of yours you only want the ANC people in it and patrolling it, and that will create some problems between ANC and IFP."  But that did not happen on that Saturday, that happened previously, Friday.  I think you are mixing up issues here.  This did not happen that day.

CHAIRPERSON: You say Friday, you're saying the day before that Saturday, or the Friday before that even?  When you said previous you put your hand forward.  Which Friday, was it the Friday just the day before?

MR MPONGOSI: ...(not translated)
No not the one, on the 11th, not that Friday, the previous.

CHAIRPERSON: The 4th?  The previous Friday, not the 11th, the Friday before, the 4th?

MR MPONGOSI: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Moloesi, sorry Mr Mpongosi, it was suggested that, sorry, evidence is going to be led that at about four o'clock on the afternoon of the 12th of February 1994 a lady by the name of Boniswa and another lady by the name of Sister, explained about you and your ...(indistinct) assaulting them at the Moloesi's shebeen.

MR MPONGOSI: You see that assault story is the first time I hear that.  Even way back in Court I did not hear that.  This my very first encounter with that knowledge.  I never done that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: They will say that you were accompanied by Mr Sithole, and that's not Mr Sithole the applicant, another Sithole, and you, they, that they were smacked and there was pouring of beers over their heads and there was a general misbehaviour at the shebeen.

MR MPONGOSI: I will dispute that.  We have TPA policemen and they will arrest people and take them to Randburg should any problems exist.  You see I don't like this lie or these lies that keep coming and diluting this truth.

AZHAR CACHALIA: You like the lies that you gave to the Court in the High Court.  You don't like lies, is that right Mr ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Cachalia, really.  Let's not get bogged down in this.  Let's move on.  We've had an explanation for what that was all about.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm putting it to you that it is rich coming from you that you don't like lies.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we've noted that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sir I'm just looking for the, yes, you're saying that this issue was never discussed in the High Court, is that right?

CHAIRPERSON: He said even in the High Court it, he disagreed with it.

MR LAX: Never heard it.

CHAIRPERSON: He had never heard it before the High Court, yes.  But he's denied it Mr Cachalia and you say there's going to be evidence about it.  I don't think we need dwell on it now and carry on getting a more protracted denial from him.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry just to put the, on page 103 of the judgement part of the page 103 of this bundle in the judgement the Judge talks about Mr Moloesi an ANC member testified that because of previous trouble with accused number five he refused to sell beer to him as a result of this the misconception was formed that there was discrimination against IFP members he testified etc. etc.  I am saying it is not correct when you say that it was never discussed previously.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: He said he heard it for the first time in the Court.  Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, then I.