Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: If he was taken from the Fountain Street offices, one would expect documentary evidence to that effect to be available.
It seems a little suprising that the, as far as one can gather, because it hasn't been available to us, that no records were kept at Fountain Street and who was taken there for interrogation, when they were sent away and matters of that nature.   Police are usually fairly careful about these things,  
	I raised this question last week about whether there was documentary evidence available and none appears to be forthcoming.  Does this mean that the dockets and other documents no longer exists, if they have been done away with?

MR STANDER: Mr Chair I cannot answer to this.  I will do my best by means of the hospital where he had been treated, to see whether any documentation is available.
   I would like to stat to you Mr Mmelesi, that you not only acted as a so called interpreter but that you actively participated in this interrogation of the persons and also the assault of on these persons.

MR MMELESI: I have answered.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry Mr Chairman, may I come in here? Would my learned friend please assist all of us by telling us who it is alleged that this witness assaulted because he hasn't put that.

MR STANDER: Just a moment Mr Chair.
    Mr Oliphant do you know him, the person who is known as Chine?

MR MMELESI: Yes, I know him.

MR STANDER: He also alleges that you assaulted him.

MR MMELESI: He's lying Sir, I did not assault him and I did not assault any person.

MR STANDER: Did you also participate in the interrogation of any of the women present there?

MR MMELESI: Yes, I took part in the interrogation, there may be two or three.  As I explained that the base which I was in office, I took part.

MR STANDER: Am I correct if I also say that there were no female interrogators when the females or women where interrogated?  Is that correct?

MR MMELESI: That is correct, Sir.  Let me explain, Sir, the interrogation room was the person who the interrogator it might be a male and then myself and the person who has been interrogated.

MR STANDER: Was there a special interrogation room then?

MR MMELESI: No, there was the - there were no people in those offices who would use - in their offices as interrogation rooms as interrogation rooms, then that person would sit there, then I would sit on the other side, then the interrogator would sit on the other side.

MR STANDER: Please tell me, where you present when Oupa Makubalo at a later stage, was arrested and shots were fired in his direction?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I was not present.

MR STANDER: Where you on duty on that day?

MR MMELESI: I was always on duty all the time but I did not take part in that incident.

MR STANDER: Did you know that he was arrested on the day and that they returned him to Fountain Street?

MR MMELESI: I did not know.

MR STANDER: Is it possible that you could have been with them and that you just can't remember this?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I said I was not there.

MR STANDER: Sir, I would like to put it to you that you indeed were in the vehicle which went to arrest him when the shots were fired in his direction.

MR MMELESI: Sir, I said I was not present there. Understand well, I was not there.

MR STANDER: Do know who were all the people who were present?

MR MMELESI: I know nothing, I was not present.

MR STANDER: Did you see when he was brought in?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I did not see him.

MR STANDER: Can you tell me where your office is in the security branch?

MR MMELESI: When you enter the 5th floor, it was first one on the left side.

MR STANDER: Did you office look out on the so called Violent Street?

MR MMELESI: The this thing of Violent Street suprises me because that is a passage which goes at the back like when Mr Erasmus - the direction of his - from the door you got the toilet and the toilets for females who are on the left and for male are on the right.  Our offices are facing the direction which I'm looking and the passage go across.

MR STANDER: Why was it called this so called Violent Street?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, it was a sticker which was put on the wall which was written Violent Street.

MR STANDER: So the passage wasn't known as Violent Street?

MR MMELESI: Maybe there are people who call it that but I say the the poster was put there written Violent Street.  The passage was long and it was on those offices in 5th floor.

MR STANDER: Because one after the other witness had referred to that passage on the 5th floor as so called Violent Street and some of the police officers who have testified here admitted that. Now I don't understand why you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just wait a minute.  I understood the evidence we have heard, we have heard - I can't remember what policeman now, of a passage that his office is in and which then joins another passage which was the one he said was called Violent Street. Is that not the position?  There's more than one passage on that floor?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I gained the impression that there was only one passage but perhaps we could ascertain that I may be wrong.
    Could you explain to us the layout of the passages on the 5th floor?

MR MMELESI: You must listen very carefully Sir.  This is a passage, it goes back and here where I'm pointing its a door, then it turns to the left to those two doors, then that is the toilet, then you turn on the left there's a kitchen.

MR STANDER: Which of these two passages which you told us about now was known as the so-called Violent Street?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know perhaps your the best one to tell us Mr Stander, I gather the security police no longer occupy this. The building is there, who are occupies is now?

MR STANDER: Mr Chair I can't tell you, I don't know the answer to that question.  As far as I know there are still members of the police force in there but I don't whom exactly but its not far away from here, its approximately a block away.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't it be possible, rather than have this confusion and have witnesses trying to persuade, - trying to tell us, for us to adjourn at some stage and walk that block and see what the floor looks like?

MR STANDER: Yes Sir.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if I may come in here, Visser on record.  This very thought has occurred to us already last week and we have asked Colonel Erasmus to attempt to make arrangements so that we - we wanted to know first of all whether we'd have access to the building before we approached you with it.
    At, at this stage there is a problem with the 5th floor, apparently there's legislation declaring an off limits area to to the public.  I'm not sure in what or some such, its got something to do with National Intelligence, Mr Chairman.
    We are attempting, I think Mr Chairman, I am speaking under correction, but we are attempting to obtain permission to enter the 5th floor, that's the one thing, but in any event, what we are attempting to do is to obtain floor plans of each and every floor and to give that at least to you.
    But we are working on getting us into the building there's just a problem with the 5th floor as I understand the position to be at the moment but we're working on that very issue Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The 5th floor is really the only one we want to see, we don't want to get into the building as such but if we could do that perhaps cross-examination as to the details of the geography of the floor could stand over until we know whether we can see it ourselves or get a proper floor plan.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chair.  Before I step down from this aspect, let us then call this passage with the board Violent Street and ask the question whether your office actually faced on this passage.

MR MMELESI: : The door of the office we were occupying faced the passage and this passage proceeded ...[intervention]